# New help might have to go



## tree MDS (May 9, 2008)

I hired my old helper back after he screwed me over last year by not showing up, mostly because he can drive a truck and is semi trained. Anyway I also hire his buddy that he lives with, 2 fer one deal. Well this kids a real beuty let me tell you. Im stood straight up in my bucket 60' roping a dying ash tree that was at least 90', things are going real good and I'm actually in a real good mood, so I've got everything tip tyed and but tied and am ready to have him take a wrap on the but when I hear an exagerated "YAAAAWWNN", I'm like what the f#@# is that, so now I'm starting to scowl some-and he did it for a few more big cuts before he finally realized how pissed I was getting and shut up, very annoying. So we get through that, that was last friday, now monday and tuesday I got beaten up pretty good by my own "whoops, here we go again" underbids, I was gonna make up for it wednesday whit a money job before the rain thursday and today-no show, the other one finally got the car and showed up at 8:45, well at least he showed, we did some small stuff, now its gonna rain half sat and then at least monday and looks like most of the week so looks like I'll be here alot, man a chain is only as strong as its weakest link-I mean how hard is it? show up and wait for a branch to fall, and now the other vone is "finished with" his court cases after 2 more missed days next week  What would you guys do?, I just cant seem to find anyone normal !! Dont they make men anymore?


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## arbor pro (May 9, 2008)

Asking you what you pay these blokes is somewhat irrelevant because I realize the standard of living on the coast is higher than here in the midwest. I don't know what $ it takes on the coast to hire a good employee and keep him around. but, here in the midwest, you've got to pay better than McDonalds or the local manufacturing plant if you want good help. If you're paying about the same as these places, you can probably expect to get no more out of them than what McDonald's would...

Note - There is no intentional bashing of McDonalds or their employees here - just a reasonable comparison being made. Bear in mind, McDonald's isn't having their employees rope down huge tree sections, run saws and chippers, or drive trucks. They may have to run a broom or mop every now and then which is probably on the same level as a tree worker who does nothing but run a rake or broom but, if you're talking about anything else in the tree care industry, you're probably meaning more danger, more strenuous work = higher pay.


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## tree MDS (May 9, 2008)

They're at 15 an hour to start, I think its not that.


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## arbor pro (May 9, 2008)

$15 an hour will barely get you a decent ground guy here in the midwest where I know the standard of living is lower than out east. Are you sure the pay isn't the issue with getting and keeping good employees? Would raising your pay to $20 hour attract more responsible employees who might otherwise not apply for only $15/hr?

Just asking - I don't know everything about your situation but, I do know that money talks when it comes to finding good responsible people. It only makes sense that, if someone is very responsible and hardworking, then they're also probably the kind of person who can seek out and retain a $20/hr job. So, if you're only paying $15/hr, it stands to reason that you might be attracting the guys who are too irresponsible to find or keep a higher paying job.

I speak from experience. Working conditions are important but, money talks when it comes to finding good help.

A hiring tactic I have used and found to be effective in attracting better quality employees is offering a starting range between say, $15-25 depending on experience. If a guy has great credentials and seems really eager and responsible, I'll offer to bring him on at $15 for a three-week trial period. If he works out well, I'll offer him a huge pay increase - if not, I'll let him go or keep him at $15 and expect to get what I pay for. 

I always tell new employees that, if they show up, work hard and show respect for me and my customers, I will reward them with pay raises BEFORE they have to ask for them. I get some guys who bust their butts and earn big pay raises and continue to work hard while others stay at the base salary range and eventually leave because they're simply not interested in having a 'real' long-term job with responsibilities.

Have you tried offering pay raise incentives to your current employees for trying harder and cleaning up their acts? Obviously, I would stress that, in order to pay more, they have to perform better. You have to earn more money in order to afford paying out more money. Once your employees understand that simple concept, they can decide for themselves if the extra effort is worth the extra pay and you can decide whether it's worth your time to continue dealing with lazy, irresponsible employees.

Again, money talks. No insult to you or the way you run your business but, I don't thing $15 an hour is exactly screeming "come work for me - this is a great career opportunity." I think it's probably saying something like, "here's a chance to get eligible for unemployment benefits again..."


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## tree MDS (May 9, 2008)

I dont know arbor pro, maybe you're right, but then I know a guy that was running a crew and 75 footer doing line trimming and he was only getting 22 bucks an hour I think-with 25+ years expierience-and he truly is a master tree climber also, I used to work with him doing residential work, this guy I would trust to send out to my best account, so then these two, are still learning to run a saw, one just drags and rakes, I dont know maybe I'm off, but I hear and will consider all of your good input, thanks dude. Oh, I know the line groundies start at 15 an hour here, I think 18 is like beginning climber, I'll check it out. Maybe if these guys can show up and work, and if one of em were to get a CDL, then I could surely afford more, I'm really not cheap, but I cant give a raise, based on costing me days it has to be earned-I think if I gave these two more money they'd just get more F#@#$# up and show up less. But yeah, like you said-and I just told one of em the other day, "maybe I should just pay more and then I can hire people of a higher caliber", lol.


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## Blakesmaster (May 9, 2008)

$15 an hour sounds like you're giving them plenty. I know cost of living is probably more up there than it is here but my old boss was only giving me $13 for groundie and beginner level climbing. I didn't think he was ripping me off, but I'm much happier now running my own gig.


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## tree MDS (May 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> $15 an hour sounds like you're giving them plenty. I know cost of living is probably more up there than it is here but my old boss was only giving me $13 for groundie and beginner level climbing. I didn't think he was ripping me off, but I'm much happier now running my own gig.



Thanks man, I thought I was having another bout of "oh my god, I'm turning into a fossil" again, lol. MDS.


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## Treetom (May 9, 2008)

Perhaps you're setting yourself up to be "screwed over" again. Maybe a two-fer-one screw over. I sense that these guys don't respect you. I've often heard it said that "you get what you pay for." Sometimes we get what we settle for. I don't think it's an issue of money here. It's a issue of character: you've settled for a couple characters. Start fresh with a couple new employees. You came to this site to improve your company and your skills, correct me if I'm wrong. Tree MDS, you deserve a better caliber of employee.


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## tree MDS (May 9, 2008)

Treetom said:


> Perhaps you're setting yourself up to be "screwed over" again. Maybe a two-fer-one screw over. I sense that these guys don't respect you. I've often heard it said that "you get what you pay for." Sometimes we get what we settle for. I don't think it's an issue of money here. It's a issue of character: you've settled for a couple characters. Start fresh with a couple new employees. You came to this site to improve your company and your skills, correct me if I'm wrong. Tree MDS, you deserve a better caliber of employee.



Thanks man, I agree, its just that you get despirate, I'm sure you know or have been there. I dont know if I'll actually start fresh, but at least I fully realize that I should thanks to you putting it so perfectly. Maybe I'll just fire the next one of em that screws me over, and just start with that.


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## Treetom (May 9, 2008)

I've been in situations similar to yours with employees. My pet peave is when you're set up for a 2-day job and things are going smoothly. On the second day a crew member doesn't show up or you need a driver for the third truck and he's nowhere to be found. Or some similar scenario. You look bad to the client, you're overworking the rest of your crew and yourself, as well as losing money. I say "pet peave" like it's an ongoing thing, which it isn't, but such occurrences have made a strong enough impression on me that I have little tolerance for slackers. Sure, there are guys out there that do great for a short period of time, then comes pay day and the weekend. You know the rest. If your employee pool is anything like it is around here, it's gotta be rough. In these parts you may find a good climber or groundman, but one with a driver's license is a whole different story. A lot of guys call me looking for work. My first question is whether or not they have a driver's license. So far this year, none have. Good luck tree MDS.


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## hornett224 (May 9, 2008)

*you're gonna have to pay more.*

there are illegals getting $20 plus around Hartford and they are doing a lot easier work than ours and they can hardly speak english.

hell,they couldn't even cut a round hole in a piece of plywood!


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## treemandan (May 9, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> I hired my old helper back after he screwed me over last year by not showing up, mostly because he can drive a truck and is semi trained. Anyway I also hire his buddy that he lives with, 2 fer one deal. Well this kids a real beuty let me tell you. Im stood straight up in my bucket 60' roping a dying ash tree that was at least 90', things are going real good and I'm actually in a real good mood, so I've got everything tip tyed and but tied and am ready to have him take a wrap on the but when I hear an exagerated "YAAAAWWNN", I'm like what the f#@# is that, so now I'm starting to scowl some-and he did it for a few more big cuts before he finally realized how pissed I was getting and shut up, very annoying. So we get through that, that was last friday, now monday and tuesday I got beaten up pretty good by my own "whoops, here we go again" underbids, I was gonna make up for it wednesday whit a money job before the rain thursday and today-no show, the other one finally got the car and showed up at 8:45, well at least he showed, we did some small stuff, now its gonna rain half sat and then at least monday and looks like most of the week so looks like I'll be here alot, man a chain is only as strong as its weakest link-I mean how hard is it? show up and wait for a branch to fall, and now the other vone is "finished with" his court cases after 2 more missed days next week  What would you guys do?, I just cant seem to find anyone normal !! Dont they make men anymore?



Finding people interested enough in making you money is tough, something I would never try. Based on your posts I've read you got squat for a crew and are an ####### regardless. This is only based on what you posted of course. Stop crying and do it yourself, I do.


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## treemandan (May 9, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> there are illegals getting $20 plus around Hartford and they are doing a lot easier work than ours and they can hardly speak english.
> 
> hell,they couldn't even cut a round hole in a piece of plywood!



Yeah, even the ileegalls are crying for more.


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## Mikecutstrees (May 9, 2008)

I start my groundies with no experience at $13. After they show they can work and show up on time $14. After they learn a few knots, a few trees, use a chainsaw safely etc $15. I think it's fair. I have been having employee problems too, fired a guy a few weeks ago for a bad attitude, cutting his chaps twice and generally being unsafe and not listening. His replacement was there for one day, said it was great and he would be back the next day... no show no call. Had a climber for a few jobs till get this.... he said the red maple he was working on was possesed by evil spirts and couldn't bring himself to finish the tree. So I had to finish it. My current groundie is doing well, I took peoples advise on here and hired a guy who was hungry for work with family, mortgage etc, the only problem so far is the family part. He has missed 2 days in 3 weeks because his son was sick once and then his son needed stiches in his knee. But other than that which isn't a huge deal he has been doing very well. So yeah I think everyone has problems with employees.... Mike


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## treemandan (May 9, 2008)

Mikecutstrees said:


> I start my groundies with no experience at $13. After they show they can work and show up on time $14. After they learn a few knots, a few trees, use a chainsaw safely etc $15. I think it's fair. I have been having employee problems too, fired a guy a few weeks ago for a bad attitude, cutting his chaps twice and generally being unsafe and not listening. His replacement was there for one day, said it was great and he would be back the next day... no show no call. Had a climber for a few jobs till get this.... he said the red maple he was working on was possesed by evil spirts and couldn't bring himself to finish the tree. So I had to finish it. My current groundie is doing well, I took peoples advise on here and hired a guy who was hungry for work with family, mortgage etc, the only problem so far is the family part. He has missed 2 days in 3 weeks because his son was sick once and then his son needed stiches in his knee. But other than that which isn't a huge deal he has been doing very well. So yeah I think everyone has problems with employees.... Mike



Wow! 30k a year! I would show up if my wife was bleeding to death. I know families are a problem, even more so when they inhibit you. Least it wasn't to hard on you.


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## Mikecutstrees (May 9, 2008)

Iv'e had jobs that required a bachelors degree that only paid $15 and hour, minimum wage is like $7.25. I know tree work isn't for everyone but I think that a new worker in the business making 30K to start isn't ridiculous. As for illegals making $20 an hour who can't cut a round hole in a sheet of plywood, I could pay a monkey $100 an hour doesn't mean it makes sence. After I graduated from college I was making $8 an hour as a carpenters assistant carrying sheets of 3/4 ply upstairs all day. I survived on cheep beer and mashed potatoes so don't go telling me that someone can't survive on 30K a year to start. It's a job and with time people can make alot more you won't find that at McDonalds. But it's not for everyone. As for my guy not making it in I was just bummed that he wasn't there to help and that I had to climb and take down trees by myself. That sucked, but I wasn't mad. Just wanted to clarify..... Mike


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## treemandan (May 9, 2008)

Mikecutstrees said:


> Iv'e had jobs that required a bachelors degree that only paid $15 and hour, minimum wage is like $7.25. I know tree work isn't for everyone but I think that a new worker in the business making 30K to start isn't ridiculous. As for illegals making $20 an hour who can't cut a round hole in a sheet of plywood, I could pay a monkey $100 an hour doesn't mean it makes sence. After I graduated from college I was making $8 an hour as a carpenters assistant carrying sheets of 3/4 ply upstairs all day. I survived on cheep beer and mashed potatoes so don't go telling me that someone can't survive on 30K a year to start. It's a job and with time people can make alot more you won't find that at McDonalds. But it's not for everyone. As for my guy not making it in I was just bummed that he wasn't there to help and that I had to climb and take down trees by myself. That sucked, but I wasn't mad. Just wanted to clarify..... Mike



A new worker making that would be well off. Sheetrock, Macdonalds and tree work are far from the same. Consider what the employee is thinking. I know it might be video games on his mind but for a week breaking his ass it might not be enough to keep him coming back.
30K will get you that cheap beer and all the potatoes you want and thats about it.


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## reachtreeservi (May 9, 2008)

Ahh... The help problem.

No matter who or where you are in the tree industry, this is , or will be the bane of your existence.

I try to work as much by myself as possible, but I have 3 ground guys that I use depending on the job.

I pay my guys 100 for a half day on small jobs. 4 hours or less

20 an hour for 1 day jobs, And a good bit more for multi day jobs.

The guy I work with the most is 75 yrs. old. keeps the dropzone clear and unties rope. No problems, he just can't do too much more than that.

Another guy is 43, a hard worker and a great guy. But his B$%#& of a girlfriend calls him constantly on the job and generally does everything in her power to sabotage his work. Makes him late, he has to leave early, ... etc

The last guy is a good friend of mine, an expert with a saw, Strong as an ox
and more skilled at tree felling than me, but he's got to bring his Dog with him on every job. Unleashed.

TreeMDS, I feel your pain. 
And I know what it's like to have to make do with what you've got.
No matter what you pay ( and I'm paying as much as I can ) they'll be problems.

I feel lucky just to have any help at all.


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## medicnurse70 (May 9, 2008)

*Anyone in New York ?*

Heck, pay me 22.50 in upstate new york for min of 40 hours and I am there. You guys pay as much as nurses make and nursing sucks for the most part. Trees are much more fun


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## ropensaddle (May 9, 2008)

I used to have that problem but wolla I learned how to clone!
Nah had you going though I do 90% on my own and the
wife helps me with ropes anything requiring more I use temporary
service and let them cover the wc!


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## joesawer (May 10, 2008)

It is a crap shoot.
When I was managing a tree service, we expected to keep only 1 out of ten labors and 1 out of 100 climbers.


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## tree MDS (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Finding people interested enough in making you money is tough, something I would never try. Based on your posts I've read you got squat for a crew and are an ####### regardless. This is only based on what you posted of course. Stop crying and do it yourself, I do.



Yeah, you and yer 50' rope, lol.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2008)

What always pisses ya off is, when ya send a groundy for a saw
after climbing a tricky dead tree and can now fell the last 15 foot of the 
spar, only to have him walk back talking on his cell phone with an empty
saw I have found a horse whip an effective tool for management issues:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> What always pisses ya off is, when ya send a groundy for a saw
> after climbing a tricky dead tree and can now fell the last 15 foot of the
> spar, only to have him walk back talking on his cell phone with an empty
> saw I have found a horse whip an effective tool for management issues:hmm3grin2orange:



And I was told to stop being a prickhead when I got pissed in the same exact senrio. Strolling back with a empty saw, hot as hell, crane all day, 4 guys on the ground yawning, and one more limb so I can get down and get a drink of water.


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

joesawer said:


> It is a crap shoot.
> When I was managing a tree service, we expected to keep only 1 out of ten labors and 1 out of 100 climbers.



Truer words have yet to be spoken.


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## ropensaddle (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> And I was told to stop being a prickhead when I got pissed in the same exact senrio. Strolling back with a empty saw, hot as hell, crane all day, 4 guys on the ground yawning, and one more limb so I can get down and get a drink of water.



Yeah been there and they have to know, so I inform them they can't read
your mind but they can hear! I will burn those ears and if that does not get
results fire them or break out the whip  It would help ya to have one good trusted man on the ground lining out the yawners!


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah, you and yer 50' rope, lol.



You like that, don't you? Yeah well, so do I.


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## tree MDS (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> You like that, don't you? Yeah well, so do I.



Yeah, sinse you are critiquing my opperation, your's sounds a bit like "Polock Tree" to me there bud- and ya cant takedown big trees that require alot of roping by yerself, just not happening, and sinse thats about 90% of my work I, unfortunately need help there tough guy. And I'm a quarter polock so I can talk.


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah, sinse you are critiquing my opperation, your's sounds a bit like "Polock Tree" to me there bud- and ya cant takedown big trees that require alot of roping by yerself, just not happening, and sinse thats about 90% of my work I, unfortunately need help there tough guy. And I'm a quarter polock so I can talk.



You are right, you need a few hands. Hire an extra to make up for the lack of attentiveness.
Not to many willing to show up everyday. Incentive? Good money and a job they can understand. Maybe you understand it, very well to, but you really need to explain it over and over again to your guys, if you can find a clean one. 
Sounds like you are an owner/operator, which means its all YOU. You know what going on but they don't and they have their own agenda, most likely trying to get through the day.
Look around for a sub- climber maybe, it would put you on the ground where you would have more control. It might be a better situation, you could lose one man on the ground and still have a solid crew with a novice dragger. Its not good to be up there without good guys down there, you know that.
Guys who get rich in this business have done so with what you have and a huge resource of different nutjobs that come and go. Me? I just swing around a 100 foot tree on a 50 foot rope and thank God I know a lot of nutjobs. No really, I have plenty of rope, thanks for your concern.


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## tree MDS (May 10, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> there are illegals getting $20 plus around Hartford and they are doing a lot easier work than ours and they can hardly speak english.
> 
> hell,they couldn't even cut a round hole in a piece of plywood!



Hornett, just remember that 20 dollars an hour is 27 with workers comp @ 35%, plus another 10% for payroll taxes, thats 29 an hour per hour per illegal that cant even speak or cut a round hole- oh no wait you cant put an illegal on the books, oh well, lol. Anyway it would cost me 522 for two guys at 20 an hour for 9 hours (travel time and assuming everything went on time) day-thats before the other taxes and the yellow book and the yellow pages-and the bucket payments-and the ins. and any other multitudinous expenses that go along with this crap, newspaper adds, maintenance, saws,shop taxes, equipment taxes, you get it, gonna have to do better than pinchin and pullin on my saws n not showin up here n there to get that, lol. Latter, Hornett.


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Hornett, just remember that 20 dollars an hour is 27 with workers comp @ 35%, plus another 10% for payroll taxes, thats 29 an hour per hour per illegal that cant even speak or cut a round hole- oh no wait you cant put an illegal on the books, oh well, lol. Anyway it would cost me 522 for two guys at 20 an hour for 9 hours (travel time and assuming everything went on time) day-thats before the other taxes and the yellow book and the yellow pages-and the bucket payments-and the ins. and any other multitudinous expenses that go along with this crap, newspaper adds, maintenance, saws,shop taxes, equipment taxes, you get it, gonna have to do better than pinchin and pullin on my saws n not showin up here n there to get that, lol. Latter, Hornett.



When is the last time you had a decent climber?


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## custom8726 (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> When is the last time you had a decent climber?



What is a decent climber worth per hr or per day according to you??? 

Back on topic, I think $15 dollers per hr is more then a fair starting pay for a groundsman that is limited to running a rake and dragging brush. I start inexperienced guys at $13 per hr and give them raises as they aquire the skills necessary to be good groundsman. I will pay guys $15 dollers an hour even if they lack the experience to run a saw or ropes ETC.. If they show a desire to learn and show up for work every day. There is plenty of room for my employees to make more money but they have to show me they are worth it. So to sum it up 13-20 dollers per hr is what ground guys make around here. And 18-25 dollers per hr for climbers. Thats working every day on the books with paid lunch and time and a half over 40. If you are just bringing guys in here and there and can not offer them a reliable 40+ hrs a week then you will have to pay them more so it is worth there while. But like the old saying goes Good help is hard to find.


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> What is a decent climber worth per hr or per day according to you???
> 
> Back on topic, I think $15 dollers per hr is more then a fair starting pay for a groundsman that is limited to running a rake and dragging brush. I start inexperienced guys at $13 per hr and give them raises as they aquire the skills necessary to be good groundsman. I will pay guys $15 dollers an hour even if they lack the experience to run a saw or ropes ETC.. If they show a desire to learn and show up for work every day. There is plenty of room for my employees to make more money but they have to show me they are worth it. So to sum it up 13-20 dollers per hr is what ground guys make around here. And 18-25 dollers per hr for climbers. Thats working every day on the books with paid lunch and time and a half over 40. If you are just bringing guys in here and there and can not offer them a reliable 40+ hrs a week then you will have to pay them more so it is worth there while. But like the old saying goes Good help is hard to find.



What's a decent climber worth? How much you got?
I guess most subs ask for 300 per day, a hot shot like me is going to want more, is going to need more. As a general employee? You take what you can get. Last thing I want is to be an employee or to have one.
I guess the pay scale would not change a whole lot for a decent groundie, they deserve it to. I do it all.


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

You know that question was for MDS to answer. Just wanted to know.


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## custom8726 (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> What's a decent climber worth? How much you got?
> I guess most subs ask for 300 per day, a hot shot like me is going to want more, is going to need more. As a general employee? You take what you can get. Last thing I want is to be an employee or to have one.
> I guess the pay scale would not change a whole lot for a decent groundie, they deserve it to. I do it all.



Whatever works for you!! As far as the pay scale being the same for a groundsman I disagree. Granted a good groundsman is almost as essential as a good climber in many cirumstances a good climber should have started as a good groundsman there for more experienced even if they are in the begining stages of climbing, HENCE a higher pay scale starting off.


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## custom8726 (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> You know that question was for MDS to answer. Just wanted to know.



Yes, I know who the question was directed at but out of my own curiousity after reading some of your other posts on here I was curious what your take on the situation would be. Unique as usual!!


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## TomSawyer (May 10, 2008)

15 bucks for a starting groundie is a joke. We didn't start these businesses to make other people money. You have to ask yourself, how much have I spent on equipment, advertising, safety programs, maintenance, etc. When my guys screw up, I put them on the bench. 2-3 weeks go by without pay, and they show back up with a magically improved attitude. Here in Michigan, it's not like they are going to go to the GM plant and get $40 an hour for driving a forklift. Those days are gone, my friends. Wal Mart pays 7 bucks an hour, will never give you more than 30 hours a week, and treats people like trash. 

Also, I like to hire older dudes, 40 and up. They aren't as fast or energetic, but they know what a steady paycheck is. Supply and demand, I guess. I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who has had issues here.

The other thing I will add is: on payday, you need to be there with signed checks in hand. Cold beer in the cooler if the week went well. Do not screw around with a man's girl, truck, or pay.


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Whatever works for you!! As far as the pay scale being the same for a groundsman I disagree. Granted a good groundsman is almost as essential as a good climber in many cirumstances a good climber should have started as a good groundsman there for more experienced even if they are in the begining stages of climbing, HENCE a higher pay scale starting off.



Yeah, when you have a solid duo of climber and groundie you have two people doing the same amount of work, HENCE they should be paid the same. If you want to hang out with dulldrum brush draggers that is your call, I want I guy who is a "mechanic".
I admit this dou is hard to compile but if you have to ask how much it is worth and you come up with some number derived from your spread sheet then you have ask what you are paying for. Clockers or putzes? You want good, you pay, just like you tell your clients. Stop bringing trainees out, get a pro, that is what you charged for. Just because you pay a predetermined hourly rate don't mean that guy gives a crap.


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## custom8726 (May 10, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yeah, when you have a solid duo of climber and groundie you have two people doing the same amount of work, HENCE they should be paid the same. If you want to hang out with dulldrum brush draggers that is your call, I want I guy who is a "mechanic".
> I admit this dou is hard to compile but if you have to ask how much it is worth and you come up with some number derived from your spread sheet then you have ask what you are paying for. Clockers or putzes? You want good, you pay, just like you tell your clients. Stop bringing trainees out, get a pro, that is what you charged for. Just because you pay a predetermined hourly rate don't mean that guy gives a crap.



What???


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## treemandan (May 10, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> What???



What? Read it again and go to sleep, think about next week, if you don't get it by then I will try again.


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## oldirty (May 10, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> What???



lol.





treemandan....did you just say that a climber should be paid the same as a groundman?

you didnt really just say that, did ya?


onto the money. my problem with starting somewhere new is that the boss wants to start you at less than what you want and that sucks.

now i know that i am probably going to be the best hire this guy has ever made so i want my money now, not wait a month or 2 weeks for the next increase. now. the reason i know what i can do is because i have been around and seen other workers. in my tree time there is only one guy that ive worked with that i know i couldnt hold his jock, let alone his saw. (and he told me that my potential in this field is through the roof, that was better than any tip ive ever gotten)

heres the question for you employer's. whats your ceiling when it comes to pay?


treemandan, working hard on that seagull reputation.


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## custom8726 (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you are asking what the maximum pay out for a climber for me is, it varies depending on if the guy is just looking for some side cash and wants to put a day in here and there or if its a guy that wants a 40+hr per week gig with benifits. Right now I do 99% of all the climbing and probably 90% of the bucket and crane work and would not ask any other climber do get into a tree I would not tie myself into. I know I am getting a little side tracked here but if that is the question you are asking there really is not a realistic ceiling on the top wage for a capable climber it comes down to how productive the climber can be safley, there attitude, attendence, ETC... Determines how much they are worth per hr or per day to me. Some people are just unrealistic though it may not be there fault because they may or may not know the costs associated with running a leginimate buisness.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

suppose i climbed everysingle tree you had on the books, safely and timely. 

fixed all your saws (within reason) and took care of them at the end of every day.

ran all your equipment with more care than you do. thats your bucket, crane and log truck and took the time to maintain said equipment. 

that i showed up sober and on time daily(actually waiting for you at the gate) and better yet never hung over.

and at the end of 40 hrs i would like to get another 10hrs in.



this type of climber/employee.....whats he worth to you?


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## custom8726 (May 11, 2008)

treemandan said:


> What? Read it again and go to sleep, think about next week, if you don't get it by then I will try again.



I very much doubt I will ever get your point of view, but like previously stated if what you are doing is putting food on your table and you are happy then more power to you. question for you though. What is the long term goal for a individual like your self? I mean you can't be a one man show for ever, If you are not carefull you will end up without a pot to piss in when you are to old to climb yourself.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

oh wait. 

and the homeowners love my charm and they way i communicate with them.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> heres the question for you employer's. whats your ceiling when it comes to pay?
> 
> 
> .





oldirty said:


> suppose i climbed everysingle tree you had on the books, safely and timely.
> 
> fixed all your saws (within reason) and took care of them at the end of every day.
> 
> ...





oldirty said:


> oh wait.
> 
> and the homeowners love my charm and they way i communicate with them.





i guess i shouldve lumped this into one post. but this to me sounds like the ideal employee correct?

now what kind of money would you pay someone with these assets?

just out of curiousity of course.


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## custom8726 (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> suppose i climbed everysingle tree you had on the books, safely and timely.
> 
> fixed all your saws (within reason) and took care of them at the end of every day.
> 
> ...



The most I could afford to pay this individual would be what he is worth. The above credentials plus the capabilities to run a crew and talk proffesionally to customers would be a great asset to any tree company. I have yet to find such a dedicated employee thus far but when and if that day comes I will do my best to keep him around. Sorry but with out seeing first hand what you or some one else is capable of first hand I could not put a hourly rate or even a salary rate on such an individual.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> The most I could afford to pay this individual would be what he is worth. The above credentials plus the capabilities to run a crew and talk proffesionally to customers would be a great asset to any tree compny. I have yet to find such a dedicated employee thus far but when and if that day comes I will do my best to keep him around. Sorry but with out seeing first hand what you or some one else is capable of first hand I could not put a hourly rate or even a salary rate on such an individual.




what a diplomatic answer sir!

lol

i dont run a crane.....yet but all the other stuff i do. 

i wasnt trying to press you for an answer but i was more or less looking to see whats out there for monetary potential.

if you felt cornered i apologize, it was curiousity.


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## kennertree (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i guess i shouldve lumped this into one post. but this to me sounds like the ideal employee correct?
> 
> now what kind of money would you pay someone with these assets?
> 
> just out of curiousity of course.







oldirty said:


> suppose i climbed everysingle tree you had on the books, safely and timely.
> 
> fixed all your saws (within reason) and took care of them at the end of every day.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you should be running your own gig.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

kennertree said:


> Sounds like you should be running your own gig.



i'd rather not have that kind of stress, to be dead honest with you.

i'd rather make as much money as i possibly can for the guy i am working for, that way i too can get "mine". might sound odd but i'd rather work for someone else and let them reap what i sow.

i do my own thing on a saturday here and there though.


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## hornett224 (May 11, 2008)

*i hear ya.it's pricey i know.*



tree MDS said:


> Hornett, just remember that 20 dollars an hour is 27 with workers comp @ 35%, plus another 10% for payroll taxes, thats 29 an hour per hour per illegal that cant even speak or cut a round hole- oh no wait you cant put an illegal on the books, oh well, lol. Anyway it would cost me 522 for two guys at 20 an hour for 9 hours (travel time and assuming everything went on time) day-thats before the other taxes and the yellow book and the yellow pages-and the bucket payments-and the ins. and any other multitudinous expenses that go along with this crap, newspaper adds, maintenance, saws,shop taxes, equipment taxes, you get it, gonna have to do better than pinchin and pullin on my saws n not showin up here n there to get that, lol. Latter, Hornett.



remember that next time you vote,or don't vote.

where's Carl? tell him to have a cheeseburger on me,LOL


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i guess i shouldve lumped this into one post. but this to me sounds like the ideal employee correct?
> 
> now what kind of money would you pay someone with these assets?
> 
> just out of curiousity of course.



I would say even without the crane ability (not that I have or want one) that a guy like that would be worth at least 28 an hour oldirty. Of course I dont have the biz for that yet, hopefully next year maybe. And yes I would have to agree with kenner tree that it sounds like you could easily run yer own gig-but that would just make you an even better employee. MDS.


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> remember that next time you vote,or don't vote.
> 
> where's Carl? tell him to have a cheeseburger on me,LOL



I got rid of Carl, he was leaving the 28th of this month anyway, besides he was getting real lazy n comforatable-and I think I'm pretty sure he was gay, so pretty much F him and his cheeze burgers, lol.


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## TomSawyer (May 11, 2008)

Ol dirty, a guy like you is every business owner's dream. You would be worth a significant percentage of net business income, which varies from place to place. I can tell you that If I owned a business with a net income of 100 thou, a guy like that would be worth 50k. If the business makes 500k year in and year out, (net profits, not gross sales), I would have no problem paying you $250k. 

The problem with high salaries and small businesses is this: Suppose I pay you 50k a year based on last year's profits, and the next year I only break even. Now you are making 50k more than me, and I'm the one who put up the capital to start the business, runs the accounting, pays the advertising, fixes the equipment, carries the liability, on and on. No way, dude. That's why people are on low salaries, and good leaders will not be stingy with the bonuses when profits are high. 

It is completely unrealistic to expect to make more than the owner himself. So maybe the question to ask a new employer is "What were your net profits last year?" 

But ask some people that, and you'll be out the door on the street pretty fast. It's the old conflict, capital vs. labor. Guess who wins every time?:bang:


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## treemandan (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not just a groundie, a groundie who is as good at his job as you are at yours. Not worth a mint? If I work the ground its the same amount of work as if i climb. Same dangers, same hustle, same thing. It is a shame to see some of the groundies out there, it also is a shame to see a go getter groundie making chump change. Keep it up and you all will have to get Mexicans, once you run out of drunks and jailbirds who is left? Ain't no white boy gonna work like that for that. Would you, could you. Hell, I want an extra 25 per day if I have to drive one of those big trucks. 
Reps just fine on the homefront. Who are you again?


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## treemandan (May 11, 2008)

Maybe I just feel guilty about watching a guy bust his hump dragging brush while I make it. Maybe I feel that the role of groundie is taken for granted. Maybe I am wrong but the main reason I get out of bed is to make money so I can buy the things I want. Bread truck drivers do better than some of our hardworking, creative, and diligent groundies. I work to make their job easier, they do the same for me. I love to drag brush to and I keep my rake in tip top shape.
Actually, honestly , I think that anyone out there should do both. If you want a low budget dragger that is what you get, you should understand that. Right?


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

treemandan said:


> When is the last time you had a decent climber?



I have a buddy that I sub once in awhile dan, thats about it, to me its not worth it financially at this point, besides what am i supposed to do then, sit around and watch? I'm only 35 and have 20 years exp., so I figure I get a pretty good deal on me and should use that to help me grow the biz-besides, its called quality control, I actually spend the time to make every cut as good as possible as if it were to be judged by another good treeguy, its my name on the door. It seemed to me it made more sense to get a bucket sinse its cheaper and I just needed some extra help producing more work in the season. Climbers leave, my truck gets paid off and stays. Hope that answers you're question. MDS.


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## capetrees (May 11, 2008)

Usually emplyees like Old dirty are company owners that USED to do that stuff. Iwork currently doing those same tasks for aguy and do the tree work on the weekends. Slowly I will be on my own as the guy I work with retires. But to find a guy like that isn't easy and for some reson, they just don't make'em like that anymore. We're an old dying breed. As mentioned in another thread, (and from what I remember, old dirty indirectly called me cheap), I just gave a guy a $2 raise, up to $22 after working for me for the past couple of years. He doesn't climb (won't/can't), he doesn't have a CDL, I don't have a crane, he's not skilled enough to work on the saws, is somewhat of a slob, everytime I put him on a job alone he screws something up in a machine and just this past weekend, after giving him a raise the prior weekend, he decides to go away for the weekend with 4 days notice after having told him I had a "must get done" job set up for the past three weeks yesterday which I did myself till 7 pm. But I need a guy to help and he does have the muscle to move stuff. But still, they don't make'em like they used to. Now please ....


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

Capetrees, maybe your paying him too much and he does'nt need the money, lol.


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## capetrees (May 11, 2008)

The wierd thing is he does need the money but when his idiot friends come back from college or his local friends have a hairbrain idea, he's in. He's 25 and I truly understand where he is, wanting to have some fun but it just drives me nuts when he does this stuff especially right in the busy season. Give me some more time than just 4 days! Can I repeal my raise?


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## custom8726 (May 11, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i'd rather not have that kind of stress, to be dead honest with you.
> 
> i'd rather make as much money as i possibly can for the guy i am working for, that way i too can get "mine". might sound odd but i'd rather work for someone else and let them reap what i sow.
> 
> i do my own thing on a saturday here and there though.



I spent 8 years doing exactly that, Making other people money. To be honest with you I some times wonder if I was better off as a employee VS A buisness owner. I worked for a few different tree companies over 8 years while going to college at night for 5 of those 8 years. Every company I ever worked for has called me back after I left. I am still friends with a couple of them and help them out when they are in a bind and vice VS. Alot of people think the buisness owners are raking in the big bucks off there labor but in reality the only way to make money is to hustle every day 7 days a week being a buisness owner and even then you have to be as creative and deverse as possible to get ahead. When you are a employee you get to turn off the tree aspect of your life at the end of the day. I always took pride in my work regardless if it was for me or an employer. If you do not take pride in your work you will never be succesfull at it. I also made very good money working as a climber/ operator/ groundsman/ mechanic/ ETC, ETC... and then doing some side work on the weekends. I had almost zero stress and no equipment payments whats so ever. Now I still have all those things to do plus estimates, constant maintenance to keep the fleet going day in and day out the stress of keeping employees and customers happy, equipment payments, insurance payments, ETC... ETC.. If it was not for long term goals for myself I would have just kept working for some one else and let them deal with the stress. So my point is if you have an employer that treats you well and you share a mutual respect for one another and you can make a comfortable living with some sort of retirement in place you might be better off staying right there.


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## tree MDS (May 11, 2008)

Custom, I hear ya, but I have to admit its getting easier now its year 12 on my own, the dramas seem to have lost thier shock, its just like "oh, that F'N piece of crap broke down again, what else is new", lol, that loser did'nt show again, go figure, lol. Allthough that one's still pissin me off. Also I'm much more comforatable with all the payments and all the checks that I write, Its like a natural evolution it seems, maybe I'm just supposed to be where I'm at after all the years and hard work. Last year though was a different story however, I got pretty beaten up buying a used bucket that was'nt quite as "remanufactured" as was told, and then the leasing company losing my title-4 months and a week I couldnt register that truck, got it sept 1st, registered it jan 7th, yeah, ask me then about workin fer yerself and I would probably have to aggree wit oldirty-hey I finally got a bucket, its jan 7th,  , lol, maybe thats why I'm not stressin too much now.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

TomSawyer said:


> But ask some people that, and you'll be out the door on the street pretty fast. It's the old conflict, capital vs. labor. Guess who wins every time?:bang:




i do believe this was the answer i was looking for. you right it wouldnt make sense that you put your ass on the line with all the start up and then pay your help more than you pay yourself. thats not why your in business. lol


and thank you very much for the other replies fellas. i am not really sure why i derailed this thread in such a manner but i saw an opportunity to ask a couple questions i needed an answer to. i guess i am at the age where i need to start thinking more about certain things. i like this work far too much and have put in far too much of an effort to think about anything else.

i'm not saying i want to make 100k off of you a year but i do want to know where a ceiling might start to come into play. ya know?


again thanks.


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## oldirty (May 11, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> So my point is if you have an employer that treats you well and you share a mutual respect for one another and you can make a comfortable living with some sort of retirement in place you might be better off staying right there.




this is exactly what i am looking for. no more no less.


thanks custom.


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## tree MDS (May 12, 2008)

I'm sure you guys have noticed this, but its just funny: I can allmost tell what a guys about by the vehicle he rolls up to the interview in. Like these two with the 1990 buick lesabre with the leaking gas tank and exhaust' all smashed up in the front, lol, yeah pretty easy to tell what you've been doing with yer time at 25-not so much with the workie, workie, lol. I call it thier "chick magnet" and say the only problem is all it attracts is fat chicks on state, lol. Another guy rolled up in a yellow hummer, I said "wow, what are you like the worlds richest groundman"? he says his father died and he "ran into some money"-but that hes gotta get rid of it because it gets bad milage :monkey: yeah, real mature, yer dad dies and you get a bright yellow hummer with his life savings


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

*Update on the help*

Allright, now I'm pi$$ed off so bad that I can feel the adrenalin coursing through my viens- of course most of you will robably find this funny, as would I if it were not me. I get up nice and early after a good nights sleep for once, the er..help shows up at 7:00, thats good, we're at the shop I say we're taking the bucket truck, dump and chipper, back the dump up to the overhead and load the tools, I'm gonna check my e-mail, so I fire up the computer and go take a leak. Simple enough right- not so much. So I hear the dump start, drive over towards the overhead door, then (Oh I know yer waiting) HO, HO, KABANG!! the one moron is watcking the drivers side while backing him up instead of the passsengers side where my trailer is, where the driver cant see, so he not only hits the trailer but smears it down my door for 28" or so, right under my lettering. So I get zipped up pretty quick and go out and start to do my bumper to bumper ins., sure enough the doors stove in pretty good like 4" or so. Well excuse me (reminder to read my threadstarter) but I'm like "thats it! yer both fired, get!" They're lingering around, listening to me #####, the one pops out the dent some, admittedly it looks better, but I'm like "get away from my truck!" So I calm down some as I realize they are just retarded, but suddenly I really dont feel like taking them 45 min away and working a 2K day as the adrenalin has got me shaky feeling and really dont feel like climbing now. So I just said "just go home, this is'nt the way I wanted to start my day, I'll call you later and let you know", about the firing that is. Do you blame me? Oh, and the kid got another continuance instead of being "all done after this week". Nice right.


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## Blakesmaster (May 13, 2008)

That sucks, man. I know mistakes happen, but it sounds to me like 15 an hour is way too much for these bozos.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> That sucks, man. I know mistakes happen, but it sounds to me like 15 an hour is way too much for these bozos.


Word. I'm working on my help wanted add as we speak, lol. So far I think I'm going with this: Treeworker: Buisiness Name (to ward off all the losers I allready fired) hiring groundman/driver, CDL preffered but not required. Exp in private treework preffered Truely qualified only need apply ### ### #### (my cell so I dont have my machine full of mexicans tryin to speaky) What do you think?


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## mckeetree (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> I spent 8 years doing exactly that, Making other people money. To be honest with you I some times wonder if I was better off as a employee VS A buisness owner. I worked for a few different tree companies over 8 years while going to college at night for 5 of those 8 years. Every company I ever worked for has called me back after I left. I am still friends with a couple of them and help them out when they are in a bind and vice VS. Alot of people think the buisness owners are raking in the big bucks off there labor but in reality the only way to make money is to hustle every day 7 days a week being a buisness owner and even then you have to be as creative and deverse as possible to get ahead. When you are a employee you get to turn off the tree aspect of your life at the end of the day. I always took pride in my work regardless if it was for me or an employer. If you do not take pride in your work you will never be succesfull at it. I also made very good money working as a climber/ operator/ groundsman/ mechanic/ ETC, ETC... and then doing some side work on the weekends. I had almost zero stress and no equipment payments whats so ever. Now I still have all those things to do plus estimates, constant maintenance to keep the fleet going day in and day out the stress of keeping employees and customers happy, equipment payments, insurance payments, ETC... ETC.. If it was not for long term goals for myself I would have just kept working for some one else and let them deal with the stress. So my point is if you have an employer that treats you well and you share a mutual respect for one another and you can make a comfortable living with some sort of retirement in place you might be better off staying right there.




I would say 60% of the people in the tree business would be better off working for someone else. I know guys that are stressed out and tired down that have been "in business" if you will for 20+ years and they are still broke and living in a trailer house. I mean, dang, what are they trying to prove.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> I would say 60% of the people in the tree business would be better off working for someone else. I know guys that are stressed out and tired down that have been "in business" if you will for 20+ years and they are still broke and living in a trailer house. I mean, dang, what are they trying to prove.



Yeah, its like custom said you have to work yer a$$ off every day in order to get ahead, otherwise its just not worth it and you'll just spin yer wheels. I put that add in because I cant take them two anymore, we'll see. Oh, one important thing I forgot to mention about the one that screwed me over last year: one of my good friends that is a landscaper and gets me work, (knew this kid from seeing him with me) was at a convience mart and this kid was in a car with a bunch of his buddys, my friend goes in to buy a lotto ticket and realizes he left his wallet in his truck console. Well he comes out and sees them pulling away, bangs on the window and asks the kid if anyone took his wallet, they of course all deny it. My buddy lets him off easy because he thought he still worked for me. But I cant really prove this and of course the kid denyed it to me as well. Needless to say I cant bring him to any of those jobs -allthough my buddy, huge redneck with pistol permit and occaisionally bad temper wants to have a little talk with him, lol. Seriously though, that kid allready addmited to me that he had been a heroin junky, but says hes clean now, again the only reason I took him back is because of despiration. Sounds like I just gotta start fresh. Damn what a PITA. well thanks fer lettin me vent.


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> I would say 60% of the people in the tree business would be better off working for someone else. I know guys that are stressed out and tired down that have been "in business" if you will for 20+ years and they are still broke and living in a trailer house. I mean, dang, what are they trying to prove.



For some people that is all they want, enough money to get by. There work an determination shows there true character. I personally enjoy nice things and work my a$$ off to have those luxuries others with less determination will never have.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> For some people that is all they want, enough money to get by. There work an determination shows there true character. I personally enjoy nice things and work my a$$ off to have those luxuries others with less determination will never have.



Could'nt agree more, if you look back you'll see me ranking on thier car, case and point. When I was thier age I allready had my truck and chipper, freshly painted, matching, with new tires and all. I also had a 68 GMC 3/4 ton 4 wheel with 8' fleetside, mostly restored, a 67 firebird restored, and a tree service - and I started with hard work, no rich parents here. Just look at thier car I say, lol. I cant imagine telling my mother that I lost my job because I could'nt show up to work. She would be heartbroken to know her son is a loser. Of course they probably just blame it on something else anyway.


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## squad143 (May 13, 2008)

TreeMDS,

You are wise to get rid of those losers. What happens if it is your life that they f-up next?

What do you pay a good worker???? I look at it, from how much I can make if he is there vs. how much if he isn't. My helper is a lot like old dirty (posted to be like). Because he is so valuable, I pay him well. Since it is only me and him, I would not attempt to do most of the jobs that I get. Without him, it's smaller jobs and my wife helping by untying knots at the bottom.

I can't stand idiots, but feel the pain of those that are stuck working with them.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

Squad, I hear ya on the what if its my life part. Its an old truck, but still in nice shape and I had just taken that door off and blast and recaulked it/painted the bottom when I did some welding on the cab, new gas tanks and painted everything, took me a long time as I'm not pro-but not bad either. I guess my point is it doesnt matter its still stupid. We were'nt here 4 miniutes, I mean come on!! Besides I love that truck, we've been through hell and moved forests together. Last year after dumping the truck probably 100 times, he decides to take both chains all the way off the tailgate all the sudden, tells me ok, let er rip-you know the rest-bent frame, new hitch, bent tailgate. I pay 15 an hour for these retards fyi, maybe I'd pay more if they were worth it. We'll see what the add drudges up. BTW, yeah, maybe oldirty's just postin a mean game, lol.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

My point exactly, which I tried to make earlier is that want you attract is what you attract with wages. You don't want a loser, you want a PRO. Actaully you might be looking for losers so you don't have to pay them much but I don't know.
If you are saying the funds are not there to accomadate good help well that's not working, is it? I know you have 12 years of stories just like this, some worse.
If you are saying 15 per is right for a high level operator( which is a ground guy) then step off, its not.
If you are saying for 12 years you went around chasing after the idiots you hire( cause well, you do what you can/have to) I don't think I should say anymore.
I honestly don't know what some of these guys who come out here to do ground work are thinking, even if you don't run them ragged and hook em up.
I would have a stroke if I saw 2 guys who I pay do that to my truck. Its called not paying attention. You need some one to pay attention indeed. It can't always be you, can it?
If I were to hire myself out as a groundie I would probably want more than I get for climber, I would bring my Dingo and my ins. card. Even if I left it I would still want some money. What is it worth to know your groundie is not going to ask you " how many wraps should I take?" I find that to be one of the most annoying questions a man could ask. Chances are I would be worth the 300 to 600 per day and those other guys? Well you can just leave them.
FREELANCE GROUNDIE! Yeah, that is what I am going to do when I retire. Ain't nobody going to hire me though as the two losers they got get-r-done, somehow.
Good luck, I about flipped today to. Man, when you hire someone now you do the work of twoo.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

Dan as usual I dont quite know what to make of you. Regardless, what do you actually think an appropriate wage per hour for a starting groudy with no real tree skills that can drive standard is ?? 400- 600 a day??? I mean whats yer friggin point, er... bud?


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Dan as usual I dont quite know what to make of you. Regardless, what do you actually think an appropriate wage per hour for a starting groudy with no real tree skills that can drive standard is ?? 400- 600 a day??? I mean whats yer friggin point, er... bud?




Ask yourself if a starting groundie is actually going to do you any good. Sure 15 to start an uneducated guy. You want to teach him? Go ahead. What happened to the first guy 12 years ago?
I am not singeling you out there dear tree brother, its the way it is all over. Everybody who operates like we do has this problem of finding mediorce help, which may or not work out. I don't know how many people the job would attract, actually I do, not very many.
" I need someone like me", I am sure your lips have uttered those words a time or to. Well ask yourself how much incentive you need to show up.
I know I need a good amount of incentive to show up, number 1 and number 2 is I have never said" I need someone like me". What would I do with a nut like me?
Catching on yet? I didn't make the rules on this but does it make sense? I mean come-on, What do you think that guy looking for ground work in Atlanta wants? 15? I wouldn't insult him.


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Ask yourself if a starting groundie is actually going to do you any good. Sure 15 to start an uneducated guy. You want to teach him? Go ahead. What happened to the first guy 12 years ago?
> I am not singeling you out there dear tree brother, its the way it is all over. Everybody who operates like we do has this problem of finding mediorce help, which may or not work out. I don't know how many people the job would attract, actually I do, not very many.
> " I need someone like me", I am sure your lips have uttered those words a time or to. Well ask yourself how much incentive you need to show up.
> I know I need a good amount of incentive to show up, number 1 and number 2 is I have never said" I need someone like me". What would I do with a nut like me?
> Catching on yet? I didn't make the rules on this but does it make sense? I mean come-on, What do you think that guy looking for ground work in Atlanta wants? 15? I wouldn't insult him.



$15 dollers an hour would be an insult for a begining groundsman??? Is that what you are trying to say?? Thats obsurd!! Where else can an individual go and make 15 dollers an hour for un-skilled labor, Yes un-skilled because they have yet to put there time in to learn the trade. I do not think the wages are that much different from PA to N.Y. and in N.Y. $15 an hour to start out on a tree crew is good money. You have a unique perception on things, saying a groundsman should make as much if not more then a climber What do you think an individual should make starting out??? I am curious, Not you because we all no we could not afford you but just the random guy responding to the help wanted ad looking to learn a trade, how much is he worth??


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> $15 dollers an hour would be an insult for a begining groundsman??? Is that what you are trying to say?? Thats obsurd!! Where else can an individual go and make 15 dollers an hour for un-skilled labor, Yes un-skilled because they have yet to put there time in to learn the trade. I do not think the wages are that much different from PA to N.Y. and in N.Y. $15 an hour to start out on a tree crew is good money. You have a unique perception on things, saying a groundsman should make as much if not more then a climber What do you think an individual should make starting out??? I am curious, Not you because we all no we could not afford you but just the random guy responding to the help wanted ad looking to learn a trade, how much is he worth??



Dude, you are my hero!! Thank you. MDS.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> $15 dollers an hour would be an insult for a begining groundsman??? Is that what you are trying to say?? Thats obsurd!! Where else can an individual go and make 15 dollers an hour for un-skilled labor, Yes un-skilled because they have yet to put there time in to learn the trade. I do not think the wages are that much different from PA to N.Y. and in N.Y. $15 an hour to start out on a tree crew is good money. You have a unique perception on things, saying a groundsman should make as much if not more then a climber What do you think an individual should make starting out??? I am curious, Not you because we all no we could not afford you but just the random guy responding to the help wanted ad looking to learn a trade, how much is he worth??



Yo, Yo ,Yo take your panties out of your ears there sparky. Where did I say that 15 was NOT good for a starter? Oh that's right ! I didn't.
Look, I am trying to help you but screw it if you aren't even going to read what I said properly.
Thing is , that is why there are so many of us who went from low paid grunt to highest paid climber to small business owner. Where have all the good guys gone? Out on there own. Why? Make more money. Its the cycle, some call it vicious.
For me, the ground work is the hardest and it didn't use to be that way. All in all, you don't want a good ground guy, he will take your job one day.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yo, Yo ,Yo take your panties out of your ears there sparky. Where did I say that 15 was NOT good for a starter? Oh that's right ! I didn't.
> Look, I am trying to help you but screw it if you aren't even going to read what I said properly.
> Thing is , that is why there are so many of us who went from low paid grunt to highest paid climber to small business owner. Where have all the good guys gone? Out on there own. Why? Make more money. Its the cycle, some call it vicious.
> For me, the ground work is the hardest and it didn't use to be that way. All in all, you don't want a good ground guy, he will take your job one day.



Dan, yer logic is vicious, you friggin moron. There I said it and I dont care.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

Also it sounds like you need some real equipment there "dingo", lol.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> $15 dollers an hour would be an insult for a begining groundsman??? Is that what you are trying to say?? Thats obsurd!! Where else can an individual go and make 15 dollers an hour for un-skilled labor, Yes un-skilled because they have yet to put there time in to learn the trade. I do not think the wages are that much different from PA to N.Y. and in N.Y. $15 an hour to start out on a tree crew is good money. You have a unique perception on things, saying a groundsman should make as much if not more then a climber What do you think an individual should make starting out??? I am curious, Not you because we all no we could not afford you but just the random guy responding to the help wanted ad looking to learn a trade, how much is he worth??



How much is a random guy looking to learn a trade worth to ME? Not a dime. I need a ringer who has his head together. He comes in a few days a week for about a full day( I start at 9 home by 4 or 5) and usually just comes without any tools but carries his own liabilty. I usually climb and he get around 160 to 200 which I 100% deduct as a business expense. It helps me to look poor.
Two things to note: 1. my out of pocket expense is about the same if he were an employee 2. He gets it all right there.
Ever hear of Johnathan Fairoaks? He will tell you, that's what he told me.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Also it sounds like you need some real equipment there "dingo", lol.



No, that's all I want, just that. How is it hanging with you loser groundguys? Yeah must of been a bad day. My logic is that I wouldn't slave for guys like you. See it now?


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yo, Yo ,Yo take your panties out of your ears there sparky. Where did I say that 15 was NOT good for a starter? Oh that's right ! I didn't.
> Look, I am trying to help you but screw it if you aren't even going to read what I said properly.
> Thing is , that is why there are so many of us who went from low paid grunt to highest paid climber to small business owner. Where have all the good guys gone? Out on there own. Why? Make more money. Its the cycle, some call it vicious.
> For me, the ground work is the hardest and it didn't use to be that way. All in all, you don't want a good ground guy, he will take your job one day.



You may not have specifically said $15 dollers an hr was not good for starters but you most certainly implied it time and time again. As far as reading what you say properly, I try but your rants and genaral perception on things are hard to follow. The above comment showed the most clarity of any of your post thus far. Not trying to start a p!ssing match here I just do not understand your logic.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Dan, yer logic is vicious, you friggin moron. There I said it and I dont care.



I am a moron? I didn't let the dingleberry I fired last year bust up my truck today. What is it? sleepy, stoned, stupid or indifferent? Let some chump rack my #### up I would be a moron, moron.
Its a shame my words are wasted. Go hang out with your spooky crew.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> No, that's all I want, just that. How is it hanging with you loser groundguys? Yeah must of been a bad day. My logic is that I wouldn't slave for guys like you. See it now?



Them I can handle, its yer logic dan, thats the problem. The thing is dan, when me and them losers do what it is we do, its top dollar! not 400 fer you and yer 50 foot rope, lol.


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> How much is a random guy looking to learn a trade worth to ME? Not a dime. I need a ringer who has his head together. He comes in a few days a week for about a full day( I start at 9 home by 4 or 5) and usually just comes without any tools but carries his own liabilty. I usually climb and he get around 160 to 200 which I 100% deduct as a business expense. It helps me to look poor.
> Two things to note: 1. my out of pocket expense is about the same if he were an employee 2. He gets it all right there.
> Ever hear of Johnathan Fairoaks? He will tell you, that's what he told me.



So you are paying an experienced guy around 20-25 dollers an hour on occasion to help you out. I need guys every day not on occasion so its a totally different scenario all together. For 15 an hr I expect a guy to safely drive a truck show up on time and be able to run a rake and feed the chipper. If he does well with those tasks and has the desire to learn more he will make more money. Think about it like this you work two days a week with this guy and he makes 320 dollers and may or may not have work next week if he worked for a full time tree company (40hrs) a week at $15 dollers an hr he would make 600 a week before taxes with no OT. Yes he is putting in more time but atleast he has the security of a steady paycheck with plenty of room for advancement if he is willing to work for it.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> You may not have specifically said $15 dollers an hr was not good for starters but you most certainly implied it time and time again. As far as reading what you say properly, I try but your rants and genaral perception on things are hard to follow. The above comment showed the most clarity of any of your post thus far. Not trying to start a p!ssing match here I just do not understand your logic.



No, I said not to expect miracles from a 15 dollar an hour guy, whether that guy is new or a old time loser with no ambition. Is that illogical? Maybe I need more practice with the whip, get them to move faster or something.
My logic is the same we imply with our service to our customers which would be" You get what you pay for maam."
I also did imply that there is a very severe shortage of clean white boys who have the desire to work at Joe Schmoes Tree Service, well definately for 15 but maybe even more ain't enough to get them to put down the remote control for something along the lines of what we do. Sometimes I think I am a fool for risking my life for 300 to 400.
I feel that anyone who goes out there should get paid the same cause they all should know and do the same. See if that confuses you, I will understand if it does, it kinda of confuses me. Sure would be nice though.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I am a moron? I didn't let the dingleberry I fired last year bust up my truck today. What is it? sleepy, stoned, stupid or indifferent? Let some chump rack my #### up I would be a moron, moron.
> Its a shame my words are wasted. Go hang out with your spooky crew.



The point eludes you dan, its about relinquishing control at some point there buddy, thats how you build a real buisiness there fifty foot rope guy!!!!!!!! AHH, dont touch my,AAHH, rope, lol.


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

Dan, tomoro, latter.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> So you are paying an experienced guy around 20-25 dollers an hour on occasion to help you out. I need guys every day not on occasion so its a totally different scenario all together. For 15 an hr I expect a guy to safely drive a truck show up on time and be able to run a rake and feed the chipper. If he does well with those tasks and has the desire to learn more he will make more money. Think about it like this you work two days a week with this guy and he makes 320 dollers and may or may not have work next week if he worked for a full time tree company (40hrs) a week at $15 dollers an hr he would make 600 a week before taxes with no OT. Yes he is putting in more time but at least he has the security of a steady paycheck with plenty of room for advancement if he is willing to work for it.



well that just depends on the entire set up.Are you complaining about your help? What kind of guys work for you? Guys like MDS's guys?
Most of what i am saying is that it might be better to seek alternatives to fill in problem areas cause the smae old with the loser ground guys( and climbers) is getting old. so am I.


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> No, I said not to expect miracles from a 15 dollar an hour guy, whether that guy is new or a old time loser with no ambition. Is that illogical? Maybe I need more practice with the whip, get them to move faster or something.
> My logic is the same we imply with our service to our customers which would be" You get what you pay for maam."
> I also did imply that there is a very severe shortage of clean white boys who have the desire to work at Joe Schmoes Tree Service, well definately for 15 but maybe even more ain't enough to get them to put down the remote control for something along the lines of what we do. Sometimes I think I am a fool for risking my life for 300 to 400.
> I feel that anyone who goes out there should get paid the same cause they all should know and do the same. See if that confuses you, I will understand if it does, it kinda of confuses me. Sure would be nice though.



Well who's fault is it that these guys have the luxury to sit there with a remote in there hands instead of making a living. People in general have become to lazy because parents let them the goverment lets them they sued some one and now do not have to work, ETC.. ETC.. Every one has to start some where and eventually a good company will weed out the bad ones and end up with some good guys (HOPEFULLY). Every one that goes out there should make the same??? Do the same?? And no the same?? Thats the logic I am talking about, it makes no dam sense!!!


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## tree MDS (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> well that just depends on the entire set up.Are you complaining about your help? What kind of guys work for you? Guys like MDS's guys?
> Most of what i am saying is that it might be better to seek alternatives to fill in problem areas cause the smae old with the loser ground guys( and climbers) is getting old. so am I.



Yer fading dan, but so am I, LOL.


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> well that just depends on the entire set up.Are you complaining about your help? What kind of guys work for you? Guys like MDS's guys?
> Most of what i am saying is that it might be better to seek alternatives to fill in problem areas cause the smae old with the loser ground guys( and climbers) is getting old. so am I.



I have a good group of guys that work with me now. I do not expect them to know as much as I do because they are still learning the trade but in time I hope there knowledge surpasses mine but only time and there dedication will decide that. I would love to have a full time employee with all the experience, degrees, and licenses out there but it just has not happened yet. Untill then I will just keep doing my job and pass on what knowledge I have to employees worth the time to teach. MDS seem like he has a couple bad apples there but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it to keep the ball rolling I am sure it will work out for him I have been there and probably will be there again its just apart of the buisness.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> The point eludes you dan, its about relinquishing control at some point there buddy, thats how you build a real buisiness there fifty foot rope guy!!!!!!!! AHH, dont touch my,AAHH, rope, lol.



very true. i don't know how you do it. Especially to those two. 
Yeah Yeah enough with the remarks, you want to know? here ya go.

600 feet of that black, red and white climbing line cut up in lengths ranging from about 50 feet to 220
200 foot big ass 20,000 lbs bull rope
300 foot not so big ass bull rope
150 foot 1/2 inch general lower line
200 foot general lower line.
All whipped and dipped, been the same length since I cut it many years ago. I hate have to long a rope. I could climb a 100 foot tree with a 50 foot rope and have, but not now. let me see if I can reliquish my control on my rope, nope, can't do it.


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## treemandan (May 13, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Well who's fault is it that these guys have the luxury to sit there with a remote in there hands instead of making a living. People in general have become to lazy because parents let them the goverment lets them they sued some one and now do not have to work, ETC.. ETC.. Every one has to start some where and eventually a good company will weed out the bad ones and end up with some good guys (HOPEFULLY). Every one that goes out there should make the same??? Do the same?? And no the same?? Thats the logic I am talking about, it makes no dam sense!!!



Well, I did say it confused me to just that it would nice. If everybody isn't going to know the same what is with that ISA test?


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## custom8726 (May 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Well, I did say it confused me to just that it would nice. If everybody isn't going to know the same what is with that *ISA test?*




Have you passed it??


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## oldirty (May 13, 2008)

treemandan. post a picture of yourself. i want to see what you look like.
i want to see just where all this bunk comes from.


and boys, about my skills...believe them. lol


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## oldirty (May 13, 2008)

squad143 said:


> old dirty .



its oldirty


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## ropensaddle (May 13, 2008)

oldirty said:


> its oldirty



:hmm3grin2orange: :monkey:


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## Mitchell (May 14, 2008)

*balancing act*

I bumped my head groundie helper to 30 beans an hour, it was 25 but I said 30 if he would sub contract to me. the least I pay is 20. I have found good help with higher wages beats mediocre help at lower wages more times then not. Most of my close calls and minor property damaged revolved around low wage lower quality help. 

It stings when I under bid or the chipper breaks etc, and all the money goes to high wages. Over the course of a week or month I find my help will pay for itself for what they do, and most importantly, don't do. In a sense it is an insurance policy, I might earn less but I know the likely hood of something going horribly wrong is much reduced. 

It also costs me in less tangible ways to have lower quality help around. Dirty clothing and dropping F bombs around homeowners and nieghbours reduces referrals and nieghbour spontaneously hiring me.

I recently hired a nieghbour [and my kids friends parent] to help as he is out of work. I was 50 feet up on the first day and noticed all the dark lines in the lawn where he was bucking rounds, I thought oh man I hope that is just bar oil lines, yea right! That stuff I can live with as you have to start some where but its the showing up for work in the cloths you just swapped an engine with and not getting the "hey put these cloths on" hint for four days, or the swearing when customers are around. Ops I'm ranting sorry but I know as I am writing this I'm not easily able to to say its not working out as I am literally providing for his kids.


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## clearance (May 14, 2008)

Mitchell said:


> I have found good help with higher wages beats mediocre help at lower wages more times then not.
> 
> I recently hired a nieghbour [and my kids friends parent] to help as he is out of work. I was 50 feet up on the first day and noticed all the dark lines in the lawn where he was bucking rounds



Good post, the bucked lawn story is brutal. You generally get what you pay for. I have a fairly foul mouth, I work utility, worked construction and in the bush from a young age, doesn't do wonders for ones manners or vocabulary. A good groundsman, few and far between, glad you found one.


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## Mitchell (May 14, 2008)

*my mouth is pure sin to*



clearance said:


> Good post, the bucked lawn story is brutal. You generally get what you pay for. I have a fairly foul mouth, I work utility, worked construction and in the bush from a young age, doesn't do wonders for ones manners or vocabulary. A good groundsman, few and far between, glad you found one.



... But Im sure you do don't engage in conversations with little old ladies around with ditties like "so this fn chick... HA ha, he seems to be responding to me positively but I really wish I did not have to spell out basic decoram so often and bluntly.


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## treemandan (May 14, 2008)

Mitchell said:


> I bumped my head groundie helper to 30 beans an hour, it was 25 but I said 30 if he would sub contract to me. the least I pay is 20. I have found good help with higher wages beats mediocre help at lower wages more times then not. Most of my close calls and minor property damaged revolved around low wage lower quality help.
> 
> It stings when I under bid or the chipper breaks etc, and all the money goes to high wages. Over the course of a week or month I find my help will pay for itself for what they do, and most importantly, don't do. In a sense it is an insurance policy, I might earn less but I know the likely hood of something going horribly wrong is much reduced.
> 
> ...



In Jesus" name AHHFNMEN. Less tangible ways. yes, yes.


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## treemandan (May 14, 2008)

oldirty said:


> treemandan. post a picture of yourself. i want to see what you look like.
> i want to see just where all this bunk comes from.
> 
> 
> and boys, about my skills...believe them. lol



If you want something from me you are going to have to tell me NOT to do it, hotshot.


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## treemandan (May 14, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Well who's fault is it that these guys have the luxury to sit there with a remote in there hands instead of making a living. People in general have become to lazy because parents let them the goverment lets them they sued some one and now do not have to work, ETC.. ETC.. Every one has to start some where and eventually a good company will weed out the bad ones and end up with some good guys (HOPEFULLY). Every one that goes out there should make the same??? Do the same?? And no the same?? Thats the logic I am talking about, it makes no dam sense!!!



Oh so you are a little touchy on the subject.


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## treemandan (May 14, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> Have you passed it??



No, never tried.


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## treemandan (May 14, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Them I can handle, its yer logic dan, thats the problem. The thing is dan, when me and them losers do what it is we do, its top dollar! not 400 fer you and yer 50 foot rope, lol.



I knew it, This is just a pissing contest, piss away there sparky. I love when you call me Dan.


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## squad143 (May 14, 2008)

oldirty said:


> its oldirty



Right, I stand (or sit) corrected. Sorry man.


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## tree MDS (May 14, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I am a moron? I didn't let the dingleberry I fired last year bust up my truck today. What is it? sleepy, stoned, stupid or indifferent? Let some chump rack my #### up I would be a moron, moron.
> Its a shame my words are wasted. Go hang out with your spooky crew.



Would you f#$#@#$ believe it, me and the boys did friggin awesome today, must have been that help wanted add that I told them about with the biz name heading it, lol. ya know what, (fer now) I actually think they're learning!, and perhaps I'm learning as a boss. Just did 1500 on one job, got 500 more on that to go, plus got 1500 next door-and 3200 dollar job came through this morning, and sealed a deal on 2000 =1500 done, picked up 6700 in work. What a difference a day makes, "welcome to the tree service, I allways say, lol. I knew they could work, otherwise I would'nt have had them around, now I realize, I'm not so stupid, lol. Thanks guys, all the banter lately helped me figure out the right thing to do, for real! Well we'll see, lol. Oh, besides I'm still interviewing, lol. MDS.


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## ropensaddle (May 14, 2008)

squad143 said:


> Right, I stand (or sit) corrected. Sorry man.



Hey I gave you many green dots for that pard so
yell it from the balcony :hmm3grin2orange:


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## custom8726 (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Oh so you are a little touchy on the subject.



Not really, I just can not stand people that use the system because they are just to lazy to get a real job.


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## ropensaddle (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Not really, I just can not stand people that use the system because they are just to lazy to get a real job.



Then do like I do, say it to your senator of course my object was illegals!
If I get rid of my help I become unemployed hard to fire yourself but it
is not hard to fire a pos, I have done it many times, on one occasion 
a feller started crying and I said I hired you to work so why when I asked
you to do that did you whine,become angry etc. I ended up giving him
another chance and he become employable it takes tough love to settle
these issues.


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Not really, I just can not stand people that use the system because they are just to lazy to get a real job.



Is it me or did you just contradict yourself in the same sentence? You all need to stop misreading me, you think I say the opposite of what I say. Take a second to ponder because you sound ridiculous.
Never did I say or imply half of what you all think I did. What do they have you on?
I say a 15 per hour guy is just that, a 15 dollar an hour guy and you say I said that a starting grunt should be paid more. I say you are a little touchy and you say " Not really, I just can't stand....
Git yer head out of there before you suffocate!
I might bring up subjects that you feel are not important but you don't have to be pricks, well maybe you do.
Hey ole dirtbag( thats olddirty to you) I have been looking for a picture of myself to post for you, I want to find one that says it all. All you have to do is tell me how to post it cause I don't know how.


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Would you f#$#@#$ believe it, me and the boys did friggin awesome today, must have been that help wanted add that I told them about with the biz name heading it, lol. ya know what, (fer now) I actually think they're learning!, and perhaps I'm learning as a boss. Just did 1500 on one job, got 500 more on that to go, plus got 1500 next door-and 3200 dollar job came through this morning, and sealed a deal on 2000 =1500 done, picked up 6700 in work. What a difference a day makes, "welcome to the tree service, I allways say, lol. I knew they could work, otherwise I would'nt have had them around, now I realize, I'm not so stupid, lol. Thanks guys, all the banter lately helped me figure out the right thing to do, for real! Well we'll see, lol. Oh, besides I'm still interviewing, lol. MDS.



We will see how you feel when the circle gets vicious again. You just like to brag anyhow but I would like to know what it is you are bragging about. What is the right thing to do? I surely do not know, no joke. I doubt you do either.


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

Look, I haven't really been paying attention completely but I thought those green bars were given by people who think you said something good. Well, who the hell has been giving me all those green bars? I got 3 in the last day. Is that good? You don't just get them automatic like, do you?


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Not really, I just can not stand people that use the system because they are just to lazy to get a real job.



Try not to read this wrong but: What is a real job? You define a real job to me, please.


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## tree MDS (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> We will see how you feel when the circle gets vicious again. You just like to brag anyhow but I would like to know what it is you are bragging about. What is the right thing to do? I surely do not know, no joke. I doubt you do either.



Dont see where I'm bragging dan, just stating facts there pal, its just buisiness, thats all. As far as the vicous-ness is concerned, I'll be ready, lol.


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## custom8726 (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Is it me or did you just contradict yourself in the same sentence? You all need to stop misreading me, you think I say the opposite of what I say. Take a second to ponder because you sound ridiculous.
> Never did I say or imply half of what you all think I did. What do they have you on?
> I say a 15 per hour guy is just that, a 15 dollar an hour guy and you say I said that a starting grunt should be paid more. I say you are a little touchy and you say " Not really, I just can't stand....
> Git yer head out of there before you suffocate!
> ...



You stated I was a little touchy on the subject and I replied not really. Yes scumbags that manipulate the system bother me but it is not a touchy subject its very clear how I stand about people that take advantage of others and use the system so they do not have to get a job. Is that clear enough for you?? The only one with there head in there A$$ is you!!! You either have issues with comunicating clearly or are just so out of touch with reality there is no hope for you. Good luck to you, I have a feeling you will need all you can get with your perception on things in general.


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## custom8726 (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Try not to read this wrong but: What is a real job? You define a real job to me, please.



Anyone with common sense can figure this out on there own. I guess thats why you need to ask.


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Anyone with common sense can figure this out on there own. I guess thats why you need to ask.



See? I asked you a question, you read to much into it and went all defensive. Seriously, can you answer the question? Here is my answer. 
Ahh forget it, but in all honesty your defintion is most likely different than mine.
if you are going to try to insult me by saying I have no common sense at least have the decency to add some flair you bland, overassuming, can't answer the question but so quick to judge pile.
I am sorry, the question was real, Want to let us know what you think a real job is. Just to let you know my answer to that question is right in the second paragraph.


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## custom8726 (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> See? I asked you a question, you read to much into it and went all defensive. Seriously, can you answer the question? Here is my answer.
> Ahh forget it, but in all honesty your defintion is most likely different than mine.
> if you are going to try to insult me by saying I have no common sense at least have the decency to add some flair you bland, overassuming, can't answer the question but so quick to judge pile.
> I am sorry, the question was real, Want to let us know what you think a real job is. Just to let you know my answer to that question is right in the second paragraph.



I did not think the real job terminology was that difficult to understand. In short I was refering to people that have the ability to work but are to lazy so they live off the system. Anyone that gets up and goes to work day in and day out has a real job (WITH IN REASON). Why are you so concerned? Are you a drain on society? Sorry for my lack of flair as you would say but I am new to on-line bickering so cut me some slack:greenchainsaw:  :monkey: :angry2:


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Dont see where I'm bragging dan, just stating facts there pal, its just buisiness, thats all. As far as the vicous-ness is concerned, I'll be ready, lol.



Oh you brag and you know something? That's ok. I am sure you will be ready, no joke, no sarcasm, no ####. Answer this please, why did you start your business? And how much experiance did you have when you did.


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> I did not think the real job terminology was that difficult to understand. In short I was refering to people that have the ability to work but are to lazy so they live off the system. Anyone that gets up and goes to work day in and day out has a real job (WITH IN REASON). Why are you so concerned? Are you a drain on society? Sorry for my lack of flair as you would say but I am new to on-line bickering so cut me some slack:greenchainsaw:  :monkey: :angry2:



Its not hard to understand at all from my perspective, I was asking for yours which still has yet to be delivered. For being new to on-line bickering you are doing great.
Do I really seem that concerned? More concerned about your misreading and asumptions really. 
I work everyday but I don't think I have a real job. I get paid and all but still the description of my job is " look out for me and my own". It might not pay all that great all the time but the benifits are astounding. I also do charity work.


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## custom8726 (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Its not hard to understand at all from my perspective, I was asking for yours which still has yet to be delivered. For being new to on-line bickering you are doing great.
> Do I really seem that concerned? More concerned about your misreading and asumptions really.
> I work everyday but I don't think I have a real job. I get paid and all but still the description of my job is " look out for me and my own". It might not pay all that great all the time but the benifits are astounding. I also do charity work.



Are you a owner operator? If so what kind of equipment do you own? Do you carry tree insurance? workers comp? tax ID#, ETC..?? You have me curious with not thinking you have a real job. Makes me think you are the guy who drives around with a pick-up and a saw and under bids all the other legitimet tree company's in the area. I may be totally off base but Owning a legitimet tree service I deffinetly feel like its a real job.


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Are you a owner operator? If so what kind of equipment do you own? Do you carry tree insurance? workers comp? tax ID#, ETC..?? You have me curious with not thinking you have a real job. Makes me think you are the guy who drives around with a pick-up and a saw and under bids all the other legitimet tree company's in the area. I may be totally off base but Owning a legitimet tree service I deffinetly feel like its a real job.



If that makes you think that you are really one fruity sob. 215 233 7807 call and get Jack to send you a cert. Tell him Dan sent you. I am sure that owning what you own makes you feel a lot of things but mainly its holier than thou. Its always a guy underbidding you. I get underbid by much larger guys all the time. Guys with matching hardhats and shiny trucks. Seems they got guys to work real cheap or something. Maybe they told them" This is a real, good job" and they believed it. This ain't no real job, its much more than that. Probably worse than a real job so that is why its hard to find smart people, they say" F this crazy ####, I need to get a real job." tell me I am wrong and I will do my best not to insult you.
Thanks for talking with me, I know its tough, but these are some of the things that do concern me. very sincerly Dan.


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## oldirty (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Hey ole dirtbag( thats olddirty to you) I have been looking for a picture of myself to post for you, I want to find one that says it all. All you have to do is tell me how to post it cause I don't know how.



its oldirty....although ole dirtbag rolls off the tongue well. full name would be the oldirty buzzard. now that we got names straight onto the pic posting.

go to the paper clip (right above the box you write in when messaging) and choose your file. after that? not too sure.


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## custom8726 (May 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> If that makes you think that you are really one fruity sob. 215 233 7807 call and get Jack to send you a cert. Tell him Dan sent you. I am sure that owning what you own makes you feel a lot of things but mainly its holier than thou. Its always a guy underbidding you. I get underbid by much larger guys all the time. Guys with matching hardhats and shiny trucks. Seems they got guys to work real cheap or something. Maybe they told them" This is a real, good job" and they believed it. This ain't no real job, its much more than that. Probably worse than a real job so that is why its hard to find smart people, they say" F this crazy ####, I need to get a real job." tell me I am wrong and I will do my best not to insult you.
> Thanks for talking with me, I know its tough, but these are some of the things that do concern me. very sincerly Dan.



Ha!! ha!!, nice explanation buddy. For your information I own what I own from years of hard work and good buisness ethics. We are a small company but take pride in our work and equipment so if having nice equipment is a bad thing I am guilty. Our equipment is not the latest and greatest but it is well maintained and everything is kept current. As far as employees I make my best effort at paying them an above average wage when they are woth it. You critisize everyone else but what have you done thats so great?? You piss and moan about legit buisness's because of your own short comings IMO... If it is such a dumb A$$ profession maybe you should explore other options. "Oh", landscapers insurance don't count.:greenchainsaw:


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## treemandan (May 15, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> Ha!! ha!!, nice explanation buddy. For your information I own what I own from years of hard work and good buisness ethics. We are a small company but take pride in our work and equipment so if having nice equipment is a bad thing I am guilty. Our equipment is not the latest and greatest but it is well maintained and everything is kept current. As far as employees I make my best effort at paying them an above average wage when they are woth it. You critisize everyone else but what have you done thats so great?? You piss and moan about legit buisness's because of your own short comings IMO... If it is such a dumb A$$ profession maybe you should explore other options. "Oh", landscapers insurance don't count.:greenchainsaw:



what have I done so great? I don't know, maybe nothing. I can ride a bicylce up the Phila Art museum stairs. How is that?

I don't critisize that much and its a two way street anyway. who is pissing and moaning? There you go misreading again. Who said this was a dumb ass profession? Not me.
I filled out my sig to answer your question. Yeah tree insurance, did you call Jack? I don't have any employees but Jamie does some work with me( notice I said with) and he has his stuff in order to.


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## treemandan (May 16, 2008)

oldirty said:


> its oldirty....although ole dirtbag rolls off the tongue well. full name would be the oldirty buzzard. now that we got names straight onto the pic posting.
> 
> go to the paper clip (right above the box you write in when messaging) and choose your file. after that? not too sure.



well thanks you were a big help. Not. If you are not going to use the name olddirtbag maybe I will, it does sound nice doesn't it.


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## oldirty (May 16, 2008)

treemandan said:


> well thanks you were a big help. Not. If you are not going to use the name olddirtbag maybe I will, it does sound nice doesn't it.



my what a big sig line you have. lol

we'd have matching initials if you went with the olddirtbag. how about seagull? hahahaaaa!

Tmandan is legit? you ever cut any trees down at VFMA?


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## treemandan (May 16, 2008)

oldirty said:


> my what a big sig line you have. lol
> 
> we'd have matching initials if you went with the olddirtbag. how about seagull? hahahaaaa!
> 
> Tmandan is legit? you ever cut any trees down at VFMA?



Valley Forge Military Academy on Coldstream Rd?


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## oldirty (May 16, 2008)

cold stream?

thought it was eagle way or something. 1001 was the address.


but yes. dont forget the JC part.


you been there?


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## treemandan (May 16, 2008)

treemandan said:


> what have I done so great? I don't know, maybe nothing. I can ride a bicylce up the Phila Art museum stairs. How is that?
> 
> I don't critisize that much and its a two way street anyway. who is pissing and moaning? There you go misreading again. Who said this was a dumb ass profession? Not me.
> I filled out my sig to answer your question. Yeah tree insurance, did you call Jack? I don't have any employees but Jamie does some work with me( notice I said with) and he has his stuff in order to.



Actually, I kind of wonder if this is a dumb ass profession. I mean like who started this, who was the first guy to say" Hey, I'll climb up there and cut that for a hundred bucks" ? Thing is, he didn't get the job cause they found someone to do it cheaper.


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## treemandan (May 16, 2008)

oldirty said:


> cold stream?
> 
> thought it was eagle way or something. 1001 was the address.
> 
> ...



Well there is the old VFMA right down the road which is now the Christian College. All the kids that go there are married so they can have sex, they found a way.
But yes the new one is in Wayne I have worked at both places but now I mainly stay closer to home. 
The JC part?


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## treemandan (May 16, 2008)

I would have posted my sig earlier but I am rather modest and to be honest its not much and I am amazed I ain't broke yet.
Another thing : I question you because I question myself. I criticize you because of the same.


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## oldirty (May 16, 2008)

junior college.


the main line huh? havent been over there in along time. 95 i believe it to be. 


and no need to give a reason for the way you are.


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## tree MDS (May 16, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Oh you brag and you know something? That's ok. I am sure you will be ready, no joke, no sarcasm, no ####. Answer this please, why did you start your business? And how much experiance did you have when you did.



I started my buisiness because it made sense to me, and I wanted more money/to be my own boss, I worked for a few different people before starting my own thing, 4 actually, but I had been around and doing treework summers with an older brother sinse 15. But all totaled up it was at least 5 years just legit jobs-not counting my bro-wich is where I learned all the stupid #### I teach the new guys endlessly. My dad was a mechanic/body shop/master of most trades, licence plumber, heating and electritian, but he had a shop for me to work on the truck and chipper starting point, and I was allready doing most of the boss things, other than bidding, but I had allways heard all the prices. Hope that answers yer question there dan. Oh, and also I loved treework but was not too into working for these people anymore and I felt like they were ruining it for me-that was a big one.


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## treemandan (May 16, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> I started my buisiness because it made sense to me, and I wanted more money/to be my own boss, I worked for a few different people before starting my own thing, 4 actually, but I had been around and doing treework summers with an older brother sinse 15. But all totaled up it was at least 5 years just legit jobs-not counting my bro-wich is where I learned all the stupid #### I teach the new guys endlessly. My dad was a mechanic/body shop/master of most trades, licence plumber, heating and electritian, but he had a shop for me to work on the truck and chipper starting point, and I was allready doing most of the boss things, other than bidding, but I had allways heard all the prices. Hope that answers yer question there dan. Oh, and also I loved treework but was not too into working for these people anymore and I felt like they were ruining it for me-that was a big one.



That's not a bad resume'. What do you mean you heard all the prices?


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## tree MDS (May 17, 2008)

treemandan said:


> That's not a bad resume'. What do you mean you heard all the prices?



Means I usually was told what the jobs were bid at-or found out inadvertently, thats another reason it pisses me off when people underbid, after watching the prices grow over the years and then seeing people just throw all that away cuz they walked into some money somewhere and are now instant treeguys that dont even know how to bid a job.


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## tree MDS (May 17, 2008)

Oh yeah, another update, the one kid was supposed to show up this morning at 7:30 and help me with this big a$$ hemlock hedge I gotta prune with the bucket, 7:50 I call him and he's still in bed-"I forgot to set the alarm, my bad" was the excuse. Well maybe I dont like hedges but I'm not starting on some punk kids schedule either, little f#@#@$! Plus if I could'nt get it done I'd have to go back again, it would have been 9:30 or better by the time we got there, F that. I told him "I guess I'll have to start calling back those messages on the cell from my help wanted add, I'm getting so sick of this s#!%. I just set up an appiontment with a CDL guy, 40 yrs ole was ground guy for Davey/Asplund, history of drugs and drinking-been clean 3 yrs, has some group on thursdays is the only drawback, we'll see. One thing is I like the kid I got now but if he keeps screwing me its not worth it, I mean now I'm running on his schedule, thats B.S.


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## treemandan (May 17, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Oh yeah, another update, the one kid was supposed to show up this morning at 7:30 and help me with this big a$$ hemlock hedge I gotta prune with the bucket, 7:50 I call him and he's still in bed-"I forgot to set the alarm, my bad" was the excuse. Well maybe I dont like hedges but I'm not starting on some punk kids schedule either, little f#@#@$! Plus if I could'nt get it done I'd have to go back again, it would have been 9:30 or better by the time we got there, F that. I told him "I guess I'll have to start calling back those messages on the cell from my help wanted add, I'm getting so sick of this s#!%. I just set up an appiontment with a CDL guy, 40 yrs ole was ground guy for Davey/Asplund, history of drugs and drinking-been clean 3 yrs, has some group on thursdays is the only drawback, we'll see. One thing is I like the kid I got now but if he keeps screwing me its not worth it, I mean now I'm running on his schedule, thats B.S.



I used to get up at 5:30 evreryday and drive my bicycle 13 miles uphill through the neighborhood we worked in to pick up the truck, drive it back and work the 8, take the truck back and ride my bike back the 13 miles. Summer, winter, whatever. Believe it or not the ride back home was uphill to. I am bragging but I am not sure that is something to brag about, I couldn't afford a car.
I guess I had my days where I didn't show up sometimes but it wasn't cause my clock didn't go off.
I don't ride bicycles anymore.
Yeah, when I retire I WILL be a FREELANCE GROUNDY! We will see how much its worth then.


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## treemandan (May 17, 2008)

To be honest; that hemlock hedge sounds like something I would just do myself, specially if I had a bucket. But I don't know, I haven't seen it but don't put it past me.


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## oldirty (May 17, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> . I just set up an appiontment with a CDL guy, 40 yrs ole was ground guy for Davey/Asplund, history of drugs and drinking-been clean 3 yrs, has some group on thursdays is the only drawback, we'll see. .




if he's serious about his recovery these guys can be one of the best hires youve made. if he's serious.

usually they are so greatful for another shot at the title they end up doing the best they can all day everyday. 

you just have got to find out how serious he takes his sobriety.


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## tree MDS (May 17, 2008)

oldirty said:


> if he's serious about his recovery these guys can be one of the best hires youve made. if he's serious.
> 
> usually they are so greatful for another shot at the title they end up doing the best they can all day everyday.
> 
> you just have got to find out how serious he takes his sobriety.



Yeah, the only problem is he looked, well...kind of slimy, with the slicked back hair, all pale wit the white sneaks, not a speck on them-it did'nt give me the "I'm standing next to the next real treeguy" feeling. I mean I need the CDL and all that but that would be the only reason I would consider hiring the guy based on first impressions, but I might be wrong, ya never know.


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## tree MDS (Jun 2, 2008)

*Update on those losers of mine*

So I'm losing my ass on this big job, its been really dragging and I could'nt finish friday after doing 4 loads of wood and a load of chips I finnally had to give up and go home. It was supposed to rain sat but I told the one to call me at 6:15 and we would see what the weather does, maybe we can finish before it rains, I can get paid and we can move on-no call, no call all weekend. It did'nt rain until 1:30. Finally finished yesterday with a friend of mine/got everything back to the shop. I was actually thinking of blowing them off myself today, you know a taste of thier own medicine. No call no show. Now I think I'm allmost forced into getting rid of my whole crew, but I'm buying a chipper so really I dont know if I can. Oh last week they had memorial day on monday so saturday shouldnt have been a stretch.


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## hornett224 (Jun 2, 2008)

*it's tough these days getting good help.*

i'm glad i don't have to mess with it.i remember what it was like though.


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## treemandan (Jun 2, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> So I'm losing my ass on this big job, its been really dragging and I could'nt finish friday after doing 4 loads of wood and a load of chips I finnally had to give up and go home. It was supposed to rain sat but I told the one to call me at 6:15 and we would see what the weather does, maybe we can finish before it rains, I can get paid and we can move on-no call, no call all weekend. It did'nt rain until 1:30. Finally finished yesterday with a friend of mine/got everything back to the shop. I was actually thinking of blowing them off myself today, you know a taste of thier own medicine. No call no show. Now I think I'm allmost forced into getting rid of my whole crew, but I'm buying a chipper so really I dont know if I can. Oh last week they had memorial day on monday so saturday shouldnt have been a stretch.



I have to interject- 20 years and 20 companies. No I am not bragging but for that 20 years not only did I work but I watched. I watched evrey
little minute detail about everything that goes into getting out and getting to work AND getting it done. I watched , not like a seagull, like a hawk. I know what your problem is AND I can tell you how to fix it. But now you have to ask.
People want to acusse me of always assuming, being a pansy seagull or just blabbering. To be honest 20 years of this just might make you babble. Look at yourself Mds.
Let me tell you what YOU are assuming and why I think you are. There is a good chance you will just say no and try to tough it out because that's what you are ,tough. But not tough enough to do what you want to accomplish by yourself. Now take a look at Nails.
Maybe I got it all wrong again, maybe I spent the morning watching cartoons with my 2 year old, maybe I know, maybe I know you, too.
I couldn't help making some of the comments I made and to tell the truth " treemanpam" is dam funny. But really what I see is a guy who is to tough in the head to see around his problem. And its a problem right? Its not a simple thing to fix but since you are so tough and determined it should be OK. 
Would you like to hear what I think needs to be done? I doesn't entail kicking anyones ass but you are going to have to be tough. 
By the way, the only people who hated me in those 20 years was the pansies and the insecure. Now, would you like to hear some constructive critism about your issue or do you just want to be placated by remarks about busting skulls unitl your guys show up again?


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## treemandan (Jun 2, 2008)

P.S. The answer to your problem is a long and drawn out scheme with so many varibles that it sounds like babble from time to time. It just might wear you down to the point where you say F it. Still, I don't think you will have to scream at anyone.
Now I am going to finish chopping down this little walnut that I got scared in last week.


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## tree MDS (Jun 2, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I have to interject- 20 years and 20 companies. No I am not bragging but for that 20 years not only did I work but I watched. I watched evrey
> little minute detail about everything that goes into getting out and getting to work AND getting it done. I watched , not like a seagull, like a hawk. I know what your problem is AND I can tell you how to fix it. But now you have to ask.
> People want to acusse me of always assuming, being a pansy seagull or just blabbering. To be honest 20 years of this just might make you babble. Look at yourself Mds.
> Let me tell you what YOU are assuming and why I think you are. There is a good chance you will just say no and try to tough it out because that's what you are ,tough. But not tough enough to do what you want to accomplish by yourself. Now take a look at Nails.
> ...


No thanks treemanpam, I'm all set. To be honest yer posts are too long and boring for me, sorry but its treework- tough crowd.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 2, 2008)

hey mds

i have a little help for your employee problem...

keep a list of at least five part timers that you can call at daylight. 
most treeworkers are the same as you are getting. by keeping a list of ones that only want to work for you now and then, when your crew doesnt show you just leave without them. ive found about one in five will answer, so up your numbers if you need to.

also, try to find one really good guy to keep with you at all times.


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## tree MDS (Jun 2, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> hey mds
> 
> i have a little help for your employee problem...
> 
> ...


Thats not bad man, I allaready got monday and the weekends covered-and I got a grunt on call but he dont drive, drags up a storm though. But yeah, I like it, thanks.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 2, 2008)

anytime


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## treemandan (Jun 2, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Thats not bad man, I allaready got monday and the weekends covered-and I got a grunt on call but he dont drive, drags up a storm though. But yeah, I like it, thanks.



See what I am talking about? 20 years and ya got no list. Shameful. What did Nails say? " Yo, the games over here!"
But that idea will work great until one of your dogs robs the clients house.


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## treemandan (Jun 2, 2008)

Just to rub it in deeper and deeper and deeper: I'll hit my Rolodex RIGHT NOW and have as many climbers, groundies, landscrapers, builders, equipment operators, certified arborist, exconvicts or drug dealers as I want in my lot by the time I get my pansy ass off the couch tommorow at 9 am. Truth is, I don't need em.
I will post the pictures of my little walnut TD as soon as I figure out how. Its a shame I didn't take any on that 3500.00 poplar, but both were solo ventures.
I can't BELIEVE you had your girlfriend out and treated her like that. That was poor.


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## tree MDS (Jun 18, 2008)

Treetom said:


> Perhaps you're setting yourself up to be "screwed over" again. Maybe a two-fer-one screw over. I sense that these guys don't respect you. I've often heard it said that "you get what you pay for." Sometimes we get what we settle for. I don't think it's an issue of money here. It's a issue of character: you've settled for a couple characters. Start fresh with a couple new employees. You came to this site to improve your company and your skills, correct me if I'm wrong. Tree MDS, you deserve a better caliber of employee.


Bang treetom, nail on the head. They both completely dissapeared just as I'm buying a new chipper and covered with ins. jobs. I've even been real nice to these losers so thats not it, what the $#@# is wrong with these two? its wednesday and no call/show sinse monday. I knew this was gonna happen but they know whats going on here and I swear they're doing this on purpose, its amazing, like a competitor is paying them!! Ad was in the paper tuesday so we'll see what it drudges up. Maybe I'll pay someone to beat the piss right out of em!!


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## treemandan (Jun 18, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Bang treetom, nail on the head. They both completely dissapeared just as I'm buying a new chipper and covered with ins. jobs. I've even been real nice to these losers so thats not it, what the $#@# is wrong with these two? its wednesday and no call/show sinse monday. I knew this was gonna happen but they know whats going on here and I swear they're doing this on purpose, its amazing, like a competitor is paying them!! Ad was in the paper tuesday so we'll see what it drudges up. Maybe I'll pay someone to beat the piss right out of em!!



Before I say anything else: Everything I had said to you in the past was prompted by a spike of recognition in my conscience to your situations. I feel for ya guy. I guess that's why I hound you. I know about the circle, it can suck.
But like I said, with your experience you should be better at warding these situations off or at least not be so surprised. Maybe you had a 20 year run of great times, if that is the case then sit back and relax, you have been very lucky.
Just so you know, I DO have a serious problem ' relinquishing control '. I just can't rely on many people. Scares me almost as much as being buried alive.
I think one of the problems with your business lies within you. Relinquish control? That's what you said to me but I have. Not to many people but to the FORCE. The TREE WORK FORCE LUKE. Sometimes are better than others, you will get through although...


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 18, 2008)

*tree mds*

"use the force mds. "

"mds, youve disconnected your lifeline. whats going on"

"i dont need it, i have the force"



"ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" SPLAT

Force My A$$ lol


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## tree MDS (Jun 18, 2008)

Its allright though, I've got three days sub work with the bucket where I dont need a groundman and can stil make maybe a little more than with them two losers, so life goes on, then I've got real help on the weekends so F em, I'll find someone soon hopefully. All that calls is mexicans and fat old line hackers, just need a good ground dog, thats all.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 18, 2008)

i hear ya. my best guy just went back to his old job. which i dont blame him. i was paying him royally, but not enough work to make him full time yet.


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