# How Were Trees Cut Before Saws?



## Philbert (Oct 9, 2014)

OK, this is an amazingly simple question. I understand that before chainsaws we had crosscut saws. And before then we had steel, and bronze and stone axes. Does anyone know the techniques used to cut down large trees before saws (and before nylon ropes and steel cables and steam donkeys and . . . . . )?

I have read a lot about different types of saw notches and back cuts and bore cuts. Recently, I was watching some amazing YouTube videos showing PNW logging of monster trees by axe and crosscut saws. Two guys might spend a full day or more chopping out a notch with double bit axes on one of these trees. But they did the back cuts with a crosscut saw. So, before steel saws, how did they cut down large trees?

Did they just notch front and back and hope to get lucky? Could they still use wedges in some way? Anyone know? Could not find anything on the Internet, but might have just searched under the wrong terms.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## RandyMac (Oct 9, 2014)

hack at both sides and hope for the best. If you make out here, there are examples at High Rock and near Jordan Creek.
The savages burnt around the base, until it fell.
One of the first Giganteas was felled with large augers.


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## ncpete (Oct 9, 2014)

I have taken trees up to 16-18" down with an axe when I was much younger. Big wedge out of the side you want it to fall towards, and then do the backside cut in the same fashion. Could not imagine doing that today.


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## aarolar (Oct 9, 2014)

Indians used to take down trees with fire, they would cover the trunk in mud about chest height then keep building fires around the base till it weakened enough it would fall.


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## 2dogs (Oct 9, 2014)

There really wasn't any use for large tree. Some small trees were made into canoes but that was about it. Even at that I would guess most of the canoe trees were blowdowns that fell near water.


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## madhatte (Oct 9, 2014)

Saws and mills are probably older than you think.


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## Philbert (Oct 9, 2014)

madhatte said:


> Saws and mills are probably older than you think.


I found references to 'pit sawing' of beams into lumber that go back several hundred years, but several hundred years is only a fraction of human history. Plus, there are places outside of the industrialized areas without access to saws. I am assuming that many 'pioneers', 'explorers', etc. in this country had access to an axe, but not necessarily a saw when building basic log cabins, etc.



2dogs said:


> There really wasn't any use for large tree. Some small trees were made into canoes but that was about it. Even at that I would guess most of the canoe trees were blowdowns that fell near water.



Actually, the trees used for canoes in some areas had to be quite big, because they dug them out. In northern climates they used small branches and skins or bark to form canoes and kayaks, etc. In other areas, they girdled and used fire to bring down trees, then more fire and sharp rocks used as adzes to hollow them out. No epoxy available. Large timbers also were used for building beams, hewed out of logs.

If the historical part is a distraction, the question could be re-phrased. '_How can a large tree be taken down with just an axe?_'

Do you chop more than half way through on the 'wedge' side, then hack at the back until it falls? Do you chop all the way around like a beaver? Can you maintain any directional control other than the natural lean?

I am thinking that you have to be much more selective about the trees you cut, as well as be more patient. Maybe limit the size of the tree, and identify/eliminate more hazardous/challenging ones. I was curious if anyone had any direct experience with this, or historical knowledge. The falling techniques taught today were developed and adapted over the course of many years. There must have been similar types of methods developed for axe-only cutting.

Appreciate the input.

Philbert


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## SliverPicker (Oct 9, 2014)

Long long before the North American natives used fire to down trees some used their teeth!


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## Samlock (Oct 9, 2014)

It appeared everything I said about Manchurian axe men was BS.


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## GrassGuerilla (Oct 9, 2014)

It's astounding to think of how the early American pioneers cleared land with little more than an axe and team of mules. Imagine the amount of work it took to clear some of the old growth. I'm humbled at what I consider a hard days work. Those men and women were made of tough stuff.


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## HuskStihl (Oct 9, 2014)

When putting in the back cut with an axe, you need to chop really quickly to avoid a barber chair. I guess they used the large auger in the prehistoric GOL technique.


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## Philbert (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm guessing that a lot of chopped trees went 'wrong'. Unfortunately, that's how we learned a lot of our techniques - the 'hard way'. 



HuskStihl said:


> When putting in the back cut with an axe, you need to chop really quickly to avoid a barber chair.



I'm thinking that with an axe only, the back cut is totally different. You can't use a wedge to lift the tree. 

On an 'ideal' tree (perfectly straight, no lean, no wind) wouldn't you want your face cut/wedge to go more than halfwayway through the tree?

Or would to make a smaller 'back cut' first, and chop the face until the tree started to fall?

Philbert


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## Philbert (Oct 9, 2014)

Maybe this helps (even though not a 'big' tree)?

Philbert


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## HuskStihl (Oct 9, 2014)

When I was using an axe as a kid, it would be all face. I'd just keep going deeper until it fell in the direction it wanted to fall in anyway


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## Philbert (Oct 9, 2014)

Okay, lots of Timbersports videos on YouTube. I understand that this is not the same as falling a tree in the woods. But it provides some insight. They keep talking about chopping two thirds of the way through on the front, then finishing from the back.

Cutting trees without a saw may have been more of an art than a science? Directional control via natural lean and direction/shape of face cut?

Would there be as much chance of a barber chair if you had already chopped 2/3 of the way through the front face?

Philbert


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## RandyMac (Oct 9, 2014)

It wasn't near as haphazard as you think, they didn't spend that much time, just to scatter it all over the hillside. I have seen stumps that date from the late 1850s, early 1860s, they show a great deal of precision. Remember that those men did not spring from the ground, knowing nothing, many came from the White Pine regions and knew how to fall timber. Regardless of size, the principles remain the same. Did they get it right every time, no and neither do modern fallers.


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## 2dogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Philbert said:


> I found references to 'pit sawing' of beams into lumber that go back several hundred years, but several hundred years is only a fraction of human history. Plus, there are places outside of the industrialized areas without access to saws. I am assuming that many 'pioneers', 'explorers', etc. in this country had access to an axe, but not necessarily a saw when building basic log cabins, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have never seen a large tree made into a canoe. I am quite familiar with the dug out process but I


Philbert said:


> I found references to 'pit sawing' of beams into lumber that go back several hundred years, but several hundred years is only a fraction of human history. Plus, there are places outside of the industrialized areas without access to saws. I am assuming that many 'pioneers', 'explorers', etc. in this country had access to an axe, but not necessarily a saw when building basic log cabins, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I stand corrected as there were dugouts larger than I thought there were. Most were much small but California Indians dugout fallen redwoods up to 8' in diameter. Yeah NorCal!

The majority of dugouts were of a more manageable size, like 3.5 to 4.5 feet in diameter. I do remember that some ancient dugouts held up 80 men and were over 70 feet long.


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## RandyMac (Oct 9, 2014)

They made giant seagoing canoes in Puget Sound and well to the North.


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## aarolar (Oct 9, 2014)

The southeastern cherokees mades canoes that were really long up to 40' long.

Check out the one at the bottom of this page.

http://web.utk.edu/~museum/permanent/native/historic.shtml


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## slowp (Oct 9, 2014)

RandyMac said:


> They made giant seagoing canoes in Puget Sound and well to the North.



They still do.
http://www.washingtontribes.org/default.aspx?ID=50


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## bitzer (Oct 10, 2014)

Cuts like the Coos bay cut is how they handled leaners so they didn't chair. Chop both sides perpendicular to the lean. The same concepts we use come from them. The mechanics are the same. It all depends on where and when you chop. Guys who did it for a living knew what they were doing.


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## El Quachito (Oct 10, 2014)

I think the tools are the tied to the volume of wood needed. It is a marvel how people handled trees in history.


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## huskyhank (Oct 15, 2014)

Here's some good information:

http://www.patc.us/history/archive/virg_fst.html

I can tell you one thing for sure - they were real men.
Look at the big white oak about 1/4 down the page.


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## imagineero (Oct 20, 2014)

While I can't comment on the techniques, it obviously goes back a long way. Wooden ships for example were being built by egyptians as far back as 3500BC, so obviously the ability to fall and mill timber predates that. We often think that the 'dark ages' were anything before the 1900's, but life as we know it with a political system, water supply, education, trades and general civilisation goes back thousands of years.


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## slowp (Oct 20, 2014)

I couldn't remember my Euro history so had to look it up in....that W place. For Europe

_The *'Dark Ages'* is a term often used synonymously with the *'Middle Ages.'* It refers to the period of time between the *fall of the Roman Empire* and the *beginning of the Italian Renaissance and the Age of Discovery*. Many textbooks list the 'Dark Ages' as extending from *500-1500 A.D.*, although it should be noted these are approximations_.

I'm not sure there were any dark ages until maybe when small pox was introduced and America "discovered". I'll bet one of the tribal members on our north coast or the coast of Beautiful British Columbia or S.E. Alaska could tell how they got trees down, or did they use blowdown for those canoes? 

Meanwhile, I will assume there was some sort of directional felling technique known by axe users.


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## Philbert (Oct 20, 2014)

slowp said:


> Meanwhile, I will assume there was some sort of directional felling technique known by axe users.



How do we find out about these? Any of your old USFS contacts that might know?

Thanks. 

Philbert


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## Humptulips (Oct 20, 2014)

In the 60s my dad was climbing at Camp 14 on the Quinault Indian Reservation. Sometimes in the summer I would go out with him to work, mostly when there was a fire shutdown and he had fire watch. One time he took me out to a place where the Quinaults had cut canoe trees many many years ago. There were stumps with spring board holes that were square to put squared poles in to build a scaffolding. The stumps themselves were cut like a beaver all the way around. These cuts had the look of being cut with chisels. My Dad said there had been a roughed out canoe buried that was uncovered when it was logged. My memory is pretty fuzzy but I think these trees were like 5' or6'. Stumps were very high like 18'
You would think with all the timber around they would be along the river, not the case. My Dad said these were at least a mile from any water capable of floating a canoe. Must have been perfect canoe making trees there as there were a number of stumps. Dad said these were the only he had seen.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 20, 2014)

slowp said:


> I couldn't remember my Euro history so had to look it up in....that W place. For Europe
> 
> _The *'Dark Ages'* is a term often used synonymously with the *'Middle Ages.'* It refers to the period of time between the *fall of the Roman Empire* and the *beginning of the Italian Renaissance and the Age of Discovery*. Many textbooks list the 'Dark Ages' as extending from *500-1500 A.D.*, although it should be noted these are approximations_.
> 
> ...




Just an aside, the "dark ages" just so happen to coincide with the Viking age... just say'n, twasn't so dark in the far north...


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## ncpete (Oct 20, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> Just an aside, the "dark ages" just so happen to coincide with the Viking age... just say'n, twasn't so dark in the far north...


That's because of the glare from all the snow.


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## woodfarmer (Oct 26, 2014)

We had trained beavers up here


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## ChrisIsThis (Oct 28, 2014)

http://www.archaeology.org/exclusives?slg=recreating-the-neolithic-toolkit

There is an interesting video in the link above which shows stone and bone tools being used to fell and work trees.


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## Philbert (Oct 28, 2014)

Nice video. Thanks. 

More and more, I think that the _'bigger/deeper-notch-on-the-side-you-want-it-to-fall-to' _method was it. Now try to imagine how 'they' got to the '_face-notch-sawn-backcut'_ method we teach today. Must have been a lot of pinched saws! 

And who realized how much a small wedge could do with a big tree!

Philbert


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## dhskier2 (Oct 29, 2014)

There's a 2010 documentary called "Happy People: Life in the Tiaga" about an indigenous village.
As I recall, there's some footage from one of the stories where a man is felling spruce trees to make skis. He fells and hand mills dimensional boards using an axe and a long wedge (also cut/shaped by hand). He has some comment that an axe and wedge are the only tools needed to survive in the taiga.

-- available on Netflix (at least US netflix)


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## Philbert (Nov 5, 2014)

Heres's a couple of related photos pulled from a video.

Still think that there is a lot of directional, and 'special situation' information, out there that axe fallers had, which would be interesting to find.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 21, 2015)

This is a pretty small tree, but he describes some technique. Some of it should scale up to larger trees. Much deeper front notch. Takes a lot longer. No wedges, so directional control is probably more limited.




Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2015)

Some more info in this USFS PDF - "Using Axes":

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf99232823/pdf99232823Pdpi72pt06.pdf

Philbert


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## bitzer (Jan 23, 2015)

Phil I think you should grab an axe and play around. Anything about hard leaners? I'm picturing notches perpendicular to the lean.


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Anything about hard leaners?


That's my real question. Falling with the lean, most of us could figure out with a lot of hard work. The deeper front notch makes sense, and the sequence of the chopping is interesting.

I am curious what they could do without wedges, or if they just left a lot of trees that experienced crews can handle now.

Philbert


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 24, 2015)

They had a harness setup for a dinosaur beaver creature. Hold it up to the tree and it would go "nom nom nom nom" and then TIMBER! 

Pretty sure I saw it on the Flintsones anyhow


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## Sagetown (Jan 24, 2015)

Philbert said:


> OK, this is an amazingly simple question. I understand that before chainsaws we had crosscut saws. And before then we had steel, and bronze and stone axes. Does anyone know the techniques used to cut down large trees before saws (and before nylon ropes and steel cables and steam donkeys and . . . . . )?
> 
> I have read a lot about different types of saw notches and back cuts and bore cuts. Recently, I was watching some amazing YouTube videos showing PNW logging of monster trees by axe and crosscut saws. Two guys might spend a full day or more chopping out a notch with double bit axes on one of these trees. But they did the back cuts with a crosscut saw. So, before steel saws, how did they cut down large trees?
> 
> ...


The Prophet Isaiah of the Holy Bible, was tied to a table, and cut in half with a crosscut saw. That leads me to think that ancient civilizations even had crosscut saws where trees were abundant.


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## Philbert (Feb 6, 2015)

Here's another one. From _Logging_ (1913)

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jul 28, 2020)

*BUMP! *_('cause every 5 years or so . . . )_

This last post seems to indicate making the back notch first, then chopping a notch into the face, until the tree falls. Makes sense, but places the faller in a slightly more precarious position, in terms of escape routes, etc.

Philbert


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## Woodslasher (Aug 8, 2020)

Here's a step by step view of when I dropped a tree by hand and documented it with poor quality photos!
Step 1: Make the face cut.
Step 2: Use your axe as a "sight" and make sure the cut is at 90 degrees to where you want it to go.
Step 3: Make the back cut.
Step 4: Limb it.
Step 5: Drag out your misery whip and buck it up. Or, if it's small enough, use yer axe!


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## Woodslasher (Aug 8, 2020)

Here's a vintage step-by-step play, compiled by me. In this order, face cut, back cut, wedging, bucking, and quartering logs with dynamite.


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