# Where are the employees?



## centralvalleytree

This is my first thread, but i'm just curious what people have experienced here. Our company is Central Valley Tree and Arborist Services. This company was started in 2001, but we took it over in 2015. My question is,
why is it so hard to find workers?
We've been good to our guys and are trying to get in front of what's going on with the industry, we have helmet walkies, clean trucks, BC1000xl chipper and a few boom trucks. But no one responds to adds, indeed has been a waste of time, word of mouth is useless, it just seems like no one is looking for work. We've gone through our fair share of trash employees (apparently people love their illicit vices) but out of probably 30 people over 5 years, we have 2 good guys. From covid I've heard of multiple companies laying off half their staff. But where do these people disappear too? Is it different in Vancouver Canada then where you are? I'd love to hear responses. Lastly, if you are a climber that got laid off and is need work in my area, let me know.
I'd love to hear peoples experiences.


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## Del_

A good part of the problem is that employers want to hire people who are fully capable of being self employed, and pay them $20 per hour.


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## centralvalleytree

I agree, and the industry is under payed as a whole. But even offering starting wages north of $30 doesn’t get anything


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## Ck0461

When you get laid off, the unemployment checks are the same as when your working so there isn’t much incentive to try to find work. There are NOW HIRING!! signs everywhere around my town and everyone I talk to says they can’t find people that want to work. My wife is in sales with hospitality, and you wouldn’t believe the number of people that requested to be laid off so they could get benefits.


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## Lake State Property

Del_ said:


> A good part of the problem is that employers want to hire people who are fully capable of being self employed, and pay them $20 per hour.


We dont, we pay top dollar. Prerequisite: come to work, run a chainsaw and climb. Any takers? Northern MN.


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## Murville Alleman

Stacy you are the kind of employer most of us "clambers" have been trying to work for most of our careers. Honest work, honest pay. $30 doesn't get responses because of the entitlement mentality in our country today. There are good people out there, they are just harder ato find. I currently work for a co. in Birmingham and am training a very bright young college grad who I call "Mr. Fantastic" ; he impresses me every day, and after 40+ yrs in the trade that says a lot.


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## K-techcowboy

centralvalleytree said:


> This is my first thread, but i'm just curious what people have experienced here. Our company is Central Valley Tree and Arborist Services. This company was started in 2001, but we took it over in 2015. My question is,
> why is it so hard to find workers?
> We've been good to our guys and are trying to get in front of what's going on with the industry, we have helmet walkies, clean trucks, BC1000xl chipper and a few boom trucks. But no one responds to adds, indeed has been a waste of time, word of mouth is useless, it just seems like no one is looking for work. We've gone through our fair share of trash employees (apparently people love their illicit vices) but out of probably 30 people over 5 years, we have 2 good guys. From covid I've heard of multiple companies laying off half their staff. But where do these people disappear too? Is it different in Vancouver Canada then where you are? I'd love to hear responses. Lastly, if you are a climber that got laid off and is need work in my area, let me know.
> I'd love to hear peoples experiences.


Id love to join your crew. My problem is transportation. Its so hard after a divorce and being left with no job and no vehicle to get to a new job reliability. I'm so good at what I do but can't get there to do it. Its very disheartening. I've bein working since I were 14 and at 32 now maybe missed 3 days of work


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## jpenney

centralvalleytree said:


> This is my first thread, but i'm just curious what people have experienced here. Our company is Central Valley Tree and Arborist Services. This company was started in 2001, but we took it over in 2015. My question is,
> why is it so hard to find workers?
> We've been good to our guys and are trying to get in front of what's going on with the industry, we have helmet walkies, clean trucks, BC1000xl chipper and a few boom trucks. But no one responds to adds, indeed has been a waste of time, word of mouth is useless, it just seems like no one is looking for work. We've gone through our fair share of trash employees (apparently people love their illicit vices) but out of probably 30 people over 5 years, we have 2 good guys. From covid I've heard of multiple companies laying off half their staff. But where do these people disappear too? Is it different in Vancouver Canada then where you are? I'd love to hear responses. Lastly, if you are a climber that got laid off and is need work in my area, let me know.
> I'd love to hear peoples experiences.


This is a serious response, not meant to be flip at all. 
I think people are thinking the following:

Why would I work for someone when I just have to put an ad in the paper and I can just keep all the money for myself?

If I work 40 hours and someone pays for 40 hours of tree cutting, I want to keep ALL that money. I'm not going to give you a bunch of it just because you bought the equipment. I'm the one who risked my life and cut down the trees. I can buy equipment and start my own gig and build it up.

So I'm guessing that's why.

The answer to fixing it is, maybe you need to take on some partners rather than trying to hire workers. If I had a stake in the profits, I might be willing to work "WITH" you (i.e. not FOR you)

So maybe look into that.


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## Maintenance supervisor

I like it when someone else is responsible for all the taxes, insurance, and paperwork. 
I'm no climber though, chainsaw + spins is a bad mix.


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## WeirWolf

Del_ said:


> A good part of the problem is that employers want to hire people who are fully capable of being self employed, and pay them $20 per hour.


You said it, Del. I'm making cash dollars working for myself splitting wood and doing basic tree work for MILFs all over the county.


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## tree MDS

I have a theory that people have, and are becoming more and more domesticated, and as a result, not too many want to do this work anymore (or aren't suited to do it). Where once we were wolves, now we're house pets.

And I agree that more money and benefits isn't necessarily the answer. You're still gonna get the same losers, weirdos and flakes. It's pretty much the same as it's always been though, just worse yet now. Persistence and finding that "needle in the haystack" is the only real solution. Then you have to retain them while visions of trucks and chippers dance in their heads. Lol.

If it sounds pretty hopeless, it's probably because it is (for the most part). Welcome to the tree service. But hey, everybody's gotta do something, right?


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## tree MDS

But on a serious note… if you are fortunate enough to find one of those special people, you need to keep it interesting for them. Good people need to feel like they’re learning and accomplishing things, need to see progress so they feel satisfied with their job. “Fun and interesting work” is still one of the major motivating factors for tree people.


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## cookies

Everyone doing manual labor is treated like a sub contractor now, no one works for anyone permanently. Eventually a business will be forced to either pay 400+ a day for a permanent good employee or sub out the work. The 2 man crews are everywhere here, they will do anything they can get their hands on from siding to tree removal and know how to quote 25% less than every legit business. Those covid checks bought a ton of pos trucks and tools for those who could never get above water and now they are operating on their own.


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## tree MDS

Yeah, it’s like that here. The new guys are on steroids between the ash borer and the Covid deal. That’s why older more established companies like myself are forced to step up. Nobody that’s been in this long enough to know better is sitting back and letting the new guys do their best to catch up to decades of hard work within a couple years. Not me, not on my watch.


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## lone wolf

cookies said:


> Everyone doing manual labor is treated like a sub contractor now, no one works for anyone permanently. Eventually a business will be forced to either pay 400+ a day for a permanent good employee or sub out the work. The 2 man crews are everywhere here, they will do anything they can get their hands on from siding to tree removal and know how to quote 25% less than every legit business. Those covid checks bought a ton of pos trucks and tools for those who could never get above water and now they are operating on their own.


Boy you sure nailed it! They got tons of Fiat for nothing I been working hard for 4 decades and never got a handout. This **** pizzes me off!


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## Drifter2406

This is very true, over here though the labour just is not there especially trades, trouble is the longer you work somewhere now in UK the worse you seem to be treated because they think you won't leave.


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## grön ek

tree MDS said:


> I have a theory that people have, and are becoming more and more domesticated, and as a result, not too many want to do this work anymore (or aren't suited to do it). Where once we were wolves, now we're house pets.
> 
> And I agree that more money and benefits isn't necessarily the answer. You're still gonna get the same losers, weirdos and flakes. It's pretty much the same as it's always been though, just worse yet now. Persistence and finding that "needle in the haystack" is the only real solution. Then you have to retain them while visions of trucks and chippers dance in their heads. Lol.
> 
> If it sounds pretty hopeless, it's probably because it is (for the most part). Welcome to the tree service. But hey, everybody's gotta do something, right?


People are sick, and tired of the authoritarian ******** government. It's an overall general strike. Many realized that they are on a treadmill, making $800/ week, spending $500 / week on daycare, and 300 in taxes, then subtract transportation. Many lose money, and didn't even realize they are being run ragged to make nothing. I'm done. screw the ********, I will never work for anyone else ever again, unless I find an enjoyable job. If I come across an asshat for a boss, it will promptly be told to go do something to itself. I, personally, will NOT put up with anyone's BS ever again.


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## telecasterfool

I don't have an answer to hiring good employees - I don't run a tree service with employees. I will say this: if a whole industry has paid their workers low pay, without benefits, the good workers move on to other industries. It's not your fault if you're a good employer, but you have to deal with it. However, to those of you criticizing people who are willing to work hard for taking a stimulus check, buying some gear, and starting a business: shame on you. Isn't what you did 10, 15, 20 years ago?


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## lone wolf

telecasterfool said:


> I don't have an answer to hiring good employees - I don't run a tree service with employees. I will say this: if a whole industry has paid their workers low pay, without benefits, the good workers move on to other industries. It's not your fault if you're a good employer, but you have to deal with it. However, to those of you criticizing people who are willing to work hard for taking a stimulus check, buying some gear, and starting a business: shame on you. Isn't what you did 10, 15, 20 years ago?


I never got anything of the kind always worked hard. Do you realize some of them got tens of thousands of dollars at a time?


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## telecasterfool

lone wolf said:


> I never got anything of the kind always worked hard. Do you realize some of them got tens of thousands of dollars at a time?


If the money was obtained legally from a source that was intended to help people get on with a better life, for example, starting a business, than why do you care? If they stink as a tree business, they will not be your competition in a couple years.

My issue is with large established companies criticizing smaller ones. I'll bet your company was small once, too. I have a small tree service. I do small jobs. I do it well - fully insured, professional customer interaction, clean and safe jobsite, etc.

Companies like yours can have all the big, hairy tree removals - I can't do it well, and that's not fair to the customer.

However, from a couple of the comments here I deduce some may drive past my jobsite and conclude I am a hack who took his stimulus money, bought some gear and started cutting trees. You don't know anything about me.

Perhaps the comments were directed at some person the writer had intimate knowledge of. Feel free to set me straight.

Perhaps some of you do not think smaller crews should be doing tree work - then say that, and let the discussion continue.


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## Maintenance supervisor

Wait a minute! Did someone say that I could get money from the government to buy chainsaws????!!!


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## WeirWolf

Well said brother. 
My motto is, "cheap, dangerous and uninsured". I always get huge tips because I save my customers money. The large tree crews need to make payments for their brand new pos trucks.


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## Maintenance supervisor

I'm too short to work out of a new truck! What are those guys like 11' tall!


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## WeirWolf

My 1991 4x4 F250 460ci supercab long bed could be classified as a compact truck these days lol.


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## Cricket

cookies said:


> Everyone doing manual labor is treated like a sub contractor now, no one works for anyone permanently. Eventually a business will be forced to either pay 400+ a day for a permanent good employee or sub out the work. The 2 man crews are everywhere here, they will do anything they can get their hands on from siding to tree removal and know how to quote 25% less than every legit business. Those covid checks bought a ton of pos trucks and tools for those who could never get above water and now they are operating on their own.


This. I don't think most folks who haven't been there, realize how little it takes to hoist someone above the "desperate" mark, to the point where they can keep going up on their own. Which is nice for them, but hard on folks who (possibly unknowingly) were depending on "desperate" to fill positions. Doesn't mean your job offer isn't a good one - just that a lot of the same folks who would have applied for it, have moved on to doing their own work, or being able to get a car running reliably so they can look farther afield for the first time. Just kind of a different employment world.


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## Able Feller

What is see is the “circle of business” being broken.

First, I’m just going to put it out there that there are and always have been two types of people: leaders and followers.

Take a self employed based business 50 years ago. The man worked and grew a business. One of two things happened, he had a child that worked and took over and continued a good business and things carried on. It was a good place to work and workers respected the family.
The other is, he didn’t have a child that took over, so he picked out and grew close to a good young leader and mentored him. He bought the business when the man got older and was respected as well and business carried on.

Now days, due to entitlement, the first can apply but it’s usually a spoiled brat kid that didn’t work or do anything but ride daddy’s coat tail. He grows up being around the business but never earns respect, so he takes over and the business goes to pot because nobody wants to work for him.
The second scenario, today, still goes back to entitlement. The business owner tries to mentor a good leader and the followers all get mad and leave because feel they should have been in charge when in reality they can’t manage week to week.

Right now the problem with the government handouts is it’s not good leaders and business minded people getting grants and starting businesses. Instead it’s the followers and the “entitled” ones starting fly by night businesses in several industries. Yes we all know that they will come and go as they always have, and one or two here and there wasn’t that bad for business.
The problem now is, with the handouts, 20+ people in a small area get into business within a small area. They start doing jobs for dirt cheap and for not much more than their “follower” wages. They have equipment they aren’t having to pay for and don’t understand that they have to maintain, so they don’t charge accordingly as a leader with a business mentality would.

So, end of day, “entitlement” is the problem with finding good help.
People want to start at the top and do little or no work to earn it, many not having the mental capacity or ability to be anything more than a laborer.


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## K-techcowboy

Murville Alleman said:


> Stacy you are the kind of employer most of us "clambers" have been trying to work for most of our careers. Honest work, honest pay. $30 doesn't get responses because of the entitlement mentality in our country today. There are good people out there, they are just harder ato find. I currently work for a co. in Birmingham and am training a very bright young college grad who I call "Mr. Fantastic" ; he impresses me every day, and after 40+ yrs in the trade that says a lot.


I wish I had a chance like that and maybe I will all I can do is keep at the grind contacting local tree services and have faith gods got me going where I belong. I worked very hard for the things I had and they were all taken by my ex wife. Yea I was beaten down and broken but I think now its an opportunity for a fresh start on life. I'm only 32 so I got a minute or so to go lol.


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## atlashunter

At some point the free .gov cheese will run out and folks will have to work if they want to eat. That’s how it used to be and it’s just a matter of time until it returns to that.


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## WeirWolf

Kids don't want to get into tree work and similiar trades because all the illegals are doing it, and they think there is no pride in it because of that. At least that's how it is in Cali. Last couple years seen more and more of them working up here. One of the reasons why I work by myself now, I hated working with those guys. Never had any meaningful conversation with them whether or not they spoke english.


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## SliverPicker

The worker shortage covers all professions and is worldwide.

The Covid “stay at home” checks ended a while ago. That’s not the issue.

Perhaps the 40% increase in deaths among the 19-64 year olds (working age) is part of the problem. Noone seems to know what to attribute the deaths to other than it IS NOT from Covid.

Look it up.


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## Shaun Bowler

Del_ said:


> A good part of the problem is that employers want to hire people who are fully capable of being self employed, and pay them $20 per hour.


Exactly! 
Stop hiring illegals with questionable SSN's. There is NO WAY an entry level employee will except $20.00 per hour for a job that is as hard as Tree Work. Those days are long gone. Especially in the Central Valley. Raise you operating costs or you may continue to lose Income.


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## WeirWolf

I've had multiple clients say "I pay my Mexicans 'x amount'" or, "don't worry about cleaning up I'll have my Mexicans do that, they charge less."


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## fishercat

I personally just got tired of drama, egotistical and/or insecure assholes, constantly lied to, worked like a dog , constantly bitched at, and given poorly maintained equipment to work with.


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## Gabriel1982

WeirWolf said:


> I've had multiple clients say "I pay my Mexicans 'x amount'" or, "don't worry about cleaning up I'll have my Mexicans do that, they charge less."


carefull with this "importing of cheap labour" . before you know it you can't do anything without them ,AND, before you know it they are the MAJORITY in society and your "type" the minority! 
Happened in many countries ,societies in history! including USA!


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## Shaun Bowler

What do you think the Percentage of AS contributors knowingly hire "Illegals" and pay them "under the table?"


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## Gabriel1982

Shaun Bowler said:


> What do you think the Percentage of AS contributors knowingly hire "Illegals" and pay them "under the table?"


Have no ideea! But cheap labour will always be "nice" in any country. And it does help the local economy! The moment those "illegal worker" obtain legal status in that country/society they will become a very important(and usefull) part of that society and economy! There's a joke in "Human resources" circles: "you can't work in HR without humans!" Very deep and "scary" joke. Because in many countries population is growing old. Including China,or Germany! South America is the future of workforce! India not so much!


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## SweetMK

* I have slightly different thought on the subject.*

BACK WHEN,, the time when many larger companies were started, there was 0% of the knowledge available to start a company.
I am talking about before the year 2000, especially before 2008.
The best info on how to start a company was on a couple radio talk shows. that was it.
Now, anyone with a smart phone or a tablet (let alone a computer) can find 100% of the info to start a company.
Back then starting a company was "THE BIG, BAD MONSTER" ,, now, starting a company is no more difficult than getting a credit card.

I started a company in 2000. I and my wife had worked for companies that had educated us in all that we needed to start a company.
Back then, the success rate of startups was about 10%.,, that scared us, but, we started anyways.
We soon found that those companies that failed simply did not try. So, for us, success was easy. We tried.
Today, the FIRST thing people learn is that to succeed, you simply need to try., 
I have no idea why those in the year 2000 felt like they did not need to try.

As far as employees, for my business, I simply automated. 
The result was that I ran a PRETTY GOOD sized business,, with zero employees.

I was not in the tree business,,, but, reading this thread, 
I feel as though the companies that are "crying" for employees have not tried AT ALL!!

For me, every time I needed something new to be done, I added a machine. THAT is the ONLY answer to today's questions.
Do you want to grow the business?? ADD a MACHINE! Do you want to do new types of tasks?? ADD a MACHINE!!

I am sorry, but, today, I see tree companies running like it is 1890, thinking they are doing something because they bought a $500 saw.
You want to trim 50 foot trees?? buy a $400,000 machine. Sorry, that is how the world is,, now!
*(Do not tell me the equipment does not exist,, I have YouTube,, it exists!!)*

Back in 1970, I worked on a farm, in Virginia, to prep and plant the 1,000+ acres, we used about a half dozen tractors.
Also there were a half dozen employees. The logistics of keeping that equipment running was a NIGHTMARE.
The landowner spent 100% of his time dealing with the logistics of keeping the equipment running, and the employees sober.
Slowly the employees went away, the owner of the property had two sons, today, the two sons do 100% of the work.
They automated. This ONE tractor preps and plants *1,600 acres* _(not 1,000)_ and, it is operated by one of the sons.. 
*ZERO employees needed!*







*So, if you can not find employees, automate,, or stay making 1890 buggy whips, and complain.

Trust me, if YOU do not automate, and grow into the future, SOMEONE ELSE WILL!!*


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## Able Feller

SweetMK said:


> * I have slightly different thought on the subject.*
> 
> BACK WHEN,, the time when many larger companies were started, there was 0% of the knowledge available to start a company.
> I am talking about before the year 2000, especially before 2008.
> The best info on how to start a company was on a couple radio talk shows. that was it.
> Now, anyone with a smart phone or a tablet (let alone a computer) can find 100% of the info to start a company.
> Back then starting a company was "THE BIG, BAD MONSTER" ,, now, starting a company is no more difficult than getting a credit card.
> 
> I started a company in 2000. I and my wife had worked for companies that had educated us in all that we needed to start a company.
> Back then, the success rate of startups was about 10%.,, that scared us, but, we started anyways.
> We soon found that those companies that failed simply did not try. So, for us, success was easy. We tried.
> Today, the FIRST thing people learn is that to succeed, you simply need to try.,
> I have no idea why those in the year 2000 felt like they did not need to try.
> 
> As far as employees, for my business, I simply automated.
> The result was that I ran a PRETTY GOOD sized business,, with zero employees.
> 
> I was not in the tree business,,, but, reading this thread,
> I feel as though the companies that are "crying" for employees have not tried AT ALL!!
> 
> For me, every time I needed something new to be done, I added a machine. THAT is the ONLY answer to today's questions.
> Do you want to grow the business?? ADD a MACHINE! Do you want to do new types of tasks?? ADD a MACHINE!!
> 
> I am sorry, but, today, I see tree companies running like it is 1890, thinking they are doing something because they bought a $500 saw.
> You want to trim 50 foot trees?? buy a $400,000 machine. Sorry, that is how the world is,, now!
> *(Do not tell me the equipment does not exist,, I have YouTube,, it exists!!)*
> 
> Back in 1970, I worked on a farm, in Virginia, to prep and plant the 1,000+ acres, we used about a half dozen tractors.
> Also there were a half dozen employees. The logistics of keeping that equipment running was a NIGHTMARE.
> The landowner spent 100% of his time dealing with the logistics of keeping the equipment running, and the employees sober.
> Slowly the employees went away, the owner of the property had two sons, today, the two sons do 100% of the work.
> They automated. This ONE tractor preps and plants *1,600 acres* _(not 1,000)_ and, it is operated by one of the sons..
> *ZERO employees needed!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, if you can not find employees, automate,, or stay making 1890 buggy whips, and complain.
> 
> Trust me, if YOU do not automate, and grow into the future, SOMEONE ELSE WILL!!*



Thanks for your input, but machines and equipment doesn’t fix tree work or any service company employment.
When you have at minimum a dozen tree companies in a suburban area and you go out and buy a high tech machine like you’re talking about you have more issues. Access being limited or terrain is your biggest disadvantage. More companies are turning to “tight access” equipment rather than massive do-all machines with grapple saws.
Then with greater overhead like this comes an increase in price. Although some do, why would a homeowner care to pay you double to do a job with a fancy and efficient piece of equipment when the next guy can give the same result working manually with everyday equipment.
Those guys you see with big machines are mainly doing large commercial roadside projects and such with some residential work, and not everyone wants to go that route. 
Even if you get a machine like this, you still need ground hands. Someone has to lay mats. Someone has to spot. Someone has to rake and cleanup. You still need someone to operate other equipment needed on sight. Still need people able to mobilize equipment with valid drivers licenses. Oh yea, let’s not forget someone still has to manage the business and go out and make bids and bring in more business. So, the owner can’t sit there all day and operate the main machine.
At the end of the day, you get big equipment like this and go up on prices to pay for that equipment. You still have to pay people to operate and qualified and competent operators aren’t cheap so you’re really no further ahead.


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## Harmon

Shaun Bowler said:


> What do you think the Percentage of AS contributors knowingly hire "Illegals" and pay them "under the table?"


And what percentage of AS contributors hire anyone at all or have anything to do with tree service?


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## Able Feller

Harmon said:


> And what percentage of AS contributors hire anyone at all or have anything to do with tree service?



Felt the heat on that one lol


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## SweetMK

Able Feller said:


> ,,,, why would a homeowner care to pay you double to do a job with a fancy and efficient piece of equipment when the next guy can give the same result working manually with everyday equipment.


In your case, the labor is available, so the work is done by labor, with low cost equipment.
Everyone wins.  There is no need to pay double,, where you live.

The OP asked,, what do you do if no help is available,, THEN the price GOES WAY UP!! 
No more cheapy $10 an hour workers, with 8 year old saws, and no safety equipment.

Something else has to happen,, you need a machine, with no ground crew,,
They use such a machine near my home, every 7 years to open the power line right-of-ways.
One machine, one driver, he does it all.
BUT, that is not the way it works, where you live,, The country is different,, you gotta roll with the local needs.


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## Able Feller

…Something else has to happen,, you need a machine, with no ground crew,,
They use such a machine near my home, every 7 years to open the power line right-of-ways.
One machine, one driver, he does it all.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Realize, you’re speaking about commercial line clearance and ROW work.
That’s simple enough to do with one or two guys.

I specifically stated that it’s not ideal in every day residential tree work where most of the time you’re in a limited working area where you couldn’t use a dozen grapple saws and cranes if you had them.
Also, even if you did have and were able to use that equipment, you still need hands present for all the other tasks that you wouldn’t have on a commercial job like you’re talking about.

I agree, if there was no competition around, then yea, you can pretty much set your price how ever you choose.

And no, help is not readily available where I live. Not that I will approve of anyways.
It’s near impossible to get quality and dependable hands that want to show up every day and work. We pay near double what you’re stating and double + for some. New saws, good quality equipment, insurance, WC, and gear.


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## SweetMK

Able Feller said:


> I agree, if there was no competition around, then yea, you can pretty much set your price how ever you choose.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A neighbor had a 14" DBH tree removed, it was in the way of his satellite dish.
He paid $2,500, 2 guys were there 3 hours.
They chipped the brush, they left the firewood size pieces.

Another neighbor told the guy he was nuts for paying that much,, 
he said, try to find anyone that will do it for less.


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## northmanlogging

my thoughts in general, as I was once involved in hiring/firing for different type of work, and I'm now self employed, but avoiding hiring... for now. This is hiring in general, not just tree work. 

1st, people need to get paid better, treated better, and given a chance to learn and grow. 
2nd, if it is manual labor, its ******* hard work so compensate them for it. 
3rd, they wan't a job that can support them and their family. Not some piece work BS that is only 3 days a week. 

Now as for the shortage as a whole, there are multiple reasons, not just Covid and Covid stimulus checks ($1800 doesn't buy a whole lot of tree gear folks) the Unemployment benes ran out 2 months ago, so stop blaming that S please. As for illegal immigrants... I've subcontracted to several crews that from outward appearances many would call illegal, turns out they are all up to par, and making $30-40 an hour, sometimes more, difference is they don't **** around and get the job done. And their employer see's to it they are fed, and paid well.

There are many other factors to consider, 1st being that 1,000,000 people have died (or damned near it) many many more are permanently disabled directly from Covid alone, ***** narsty, the lung damage can be debilitating.

Boomers are FINALLY retiring (something us Gen X folks have been both waiting on and dreading for a long time), this is a significant part of the work force, luckily only a handful of the pricks were any damned good and have passed on all that they know, the rest... well, I hope you greedy kitties enjoy your stroke medication and dialysis machines... (how much of this is a joke? you tell me)

now, figure that the pandemic put all sorts of folks out of work, how many of them figured out that they didn't need 2-3 jobs to make ends meet? so now they only work 1, or on the same vein, maybe one of the parents stays home full time now?

Cash-for-Clunkers... remember that? about now is when all them new cars are finally getting paid off, so it goes with the above, and folks are realizing that a car payment is basically a full time job by itself.

Another side effect of folks staying home for 2 years, is that many have figured out how to cook at home, which is wayyyy cheaper then eating out everyday... something that happens when both parents work.

theres also a dirge of folks with college education getting paid minimum wage, or sometimes less for the career they did go to college for, this is utter bull ****, and folks know it. Employers want to see a college education for jobs, but they refuse to pay more then minimum wage, its a crock of ****.

In short I think, and can somewhat argue that folks have figured out that they can live on less, but that they should also be fairly compensated for their time, Didn't take a pandemic for me to figure that out, the "recession of 08'" corn holed me pretty good, so we did without car payments and anything excess, then the wife quit her job and we realized we kept more money with her at home then working.

I do think that more and more folks are going the self employment route, and I strongly encourage them too, its mighty clear that big biz and established companies don't give a **** about their employees, so why support them.


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## Gabriel1982

northmanlogging said:


> my thoughts in general, as I was once involved in hiring/firing for different type of work, and I'm now self employed, but avoiding hiring... for now. This is hiring in general, not just tree work.
> 
> 1st, people need to get paid better, treated better, and given a chance to learn and grow.
> 2nd, if it is manual labor, its ******* hard work so compensate them for it.
> 3rd, they wan't a job that can support them and their family. Not some piece work BS that is only 3 days a week.
> 
> Now as for the shortage as a whole, there are multiple reasons, not just Covid and Covid stimulus checks ($1800 doesn't buy a whole lot of tree gear folks) the Unemployment benes ran out 2 months ago, so stop blaming that S please. As for illegal immigrants... I've subcontracted to several crews that from outward appearances many would call illegal, turns out they are all up to par, and making $30-40 an hour, sometimes more, difference is they don't **** around and get the job done. And their employer see's to it they are fed, and paid well.
> 
> There are many other factors to consider, 1st being that 1,000,000 people have died (or damned near it) many many more are permanently disabled directly from Covid alone, ***** narsty, the lung damage can be debilitating.
> 
> Boomers are FINALLY retiring (something us Gen X folks have been both waiting on and dreading for a long time), this is a significant part of the work force, luckily only a handful of the pricks were any damned good and have passed on all that they know, the rest... well, I hope you greedy kitties enjoy your stroke medication and dialysis machines... (how much of this is a joke? you tell me)
> 
> now, figure that the pandemic put all sorts of folks out of work, how many of them figured out that they didn't need 2-3 jobs to make ends meet? so now they only work 1, or on the same vein, maybe one of the parents stays home full time now?
> 
> Cash-for-Clunkers... remember that? about now is when all them new cars are finally getting paid off, so it goes with the above, and folks are realizing that a car payment is basically a full time job by itself.
> 
> Another side effect of folks staying home for 2 years, is that many have figured out how to cook at home, which is wayyyy cheaper then eating out everyday... something that happens when both parents work.
> 
> theres also a dirge of folks with college education getting paid minimum wage, or sometimes less for the career they did go to college for, this is utter bull ****, and folks know it. Employers want to see a college education for jobs, but they refuse to pay more then minimum wage, its a crock of ****.
> 
> In short I think, and can somewhat argue that folks have figured out that they can live on less, but that they should also be fairly compensated for their time, Didn't take a pandemic for me to figure that out, the "recession of 08'" corn holed me pretty good, so we did without car payments and anything excess, then the wife quit her job and we realized we kept more money with her at home then working.
> 
> I do think that more and more folks are going the self employment route, and I strongly encourage them too, its mighty clear that big biz and established companies don't give a **** about their employees, so why support them.


I'm still laughing... You're funny but so right in all aspects!  The "corn holed" part was too much 
As for covid19 ,yes ,I can confirm ,my physical fittnes is at 30-40% compared to before when I didn't had covid19...
Lost weight,lost muscle,breath harder ,can't do the same ammount of work as before... 
And I'm the "lucky one" ,got covid19 after 3 doses of Pfizer vaccine... If weren't for those ,I don't think I would chat here now...


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## Shaun Bowler

Able Feller said:


> Felt the heat on that one lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do whatever you have to for yourself and Family.


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## Luztree

SweetMK said:


> A neighbor had a 14" DBH tree removed, it was in the way of his satellite dish.
> He paid $2,500, 2 guys were there 3 hours.
> They chipped the brush, they left the firewood size pieces.
> 
> Another neighbor told the guy he was nuts for paying that much,,
> he said, try to find anyone that will do it for less.


That’s the prices tree work should be at.


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## Joedangelo04

WeirWolf said:


> My 1991 4x4 F250 460ci supercab long bed could be classified as a compact truck these days lol.


I hear that my 2014 f150 isnt 4 by 4 and I still have to stand tippy toe to look in my side boxes. Pita


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## Joedangelo04

As to all of your employee problems..try offering profit sharing. Maybe set aside 10% and distribute at end of sucesfull job..?


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## computeruser

SweetMK said:


> A neighbor had a 14" DBH tree removed, it was in the way of his satellite dish.
> He paid $2,500, 2 guys were there 3 hours.
> They chipped the brush, they left the firewood size pieces.
> 
> Another neighbor told the guy he was nuts for paying that much,,
> he said, try to find anyone that will do it for less.





Luztree said:


> That’s the prices tree work should be at.



At what point does the business get to cost too much for many consumers to be able to access services? Folks who have a median household income ($67.5k in 2020, per google) are generally not sitting flush with liquid cash. A $2500 tree job may well not be something that they can realistically afford to hire out.


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## sirbuildalot

computeruser said:


> At what point does the business get to cost too much for many consumers to be able to access services? Folks who have a median household income ($67.5k in 2020, per google) are generally not sitting flush with liquid cash. A $2500 tree job may well not be something that they can realistically afford to hire out.


The tree companies aren't going to work cheaper because a given homeowner cant afford it. Equipment costs, fuel costs, insurance, etc. are outrageous for tree work.


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## ValleyForge

computeruser said:


> At what point does the business get to cost too much for many consumers to be able to access services? Folks who have a median household income ($67.5k in 2020, per google) are generally not sitting flush with liquid cash. A $2500 tree job may well not be something that they can realistically afford to hire out.


Then they buy a junk Chinese saw and do it themselves….


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## sirbuildalot

They always mention how it "only took x amount of hours"

Never do they consider factoring in that it could only be done that quickly with decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment.


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## kyle1!

ValleyForge said:


> Then they buy a junk Chinese saw and do it themselves….


I for one bought a MS660....I have been on this site too many years and Chinese saws
were not around at the time


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## Gabriel1982

sirbuildalot said:


> The tree companies aren't going to work cheaper because a given homeowner cant afford it. Equipment costs, fuel costs, insurance, etc. are outrageous for tree work.


If you have to ask how much it cost...


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## bevis

computeruser said:


> At what point does the business get to cost too much for many consumers to be able to access services? Folks who have a median household income ($67.5k in 2020, per google) are generally not sitting flush with liquid cash. A $2500 tree job may well not be something that they can realistically afford to hire out.


And I fall into that category and it's why I own 6 Stihl saws and a splitter


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## krustysurfer

Lake State Property said:


> We dont, we pay top dollar. Prerequisite: come to work,


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## krustysurfer

Lake State Property said:


> We dont, we pay top dollar. Prerequisite: come to work, run a chainsaw and climb. Any takers? Northern MN.


I can run saws and fell trees, teach me to climb and maybe its time to relocate to N. MN aloha from Michigan


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## Campbellcontractlogging

centralvalleytree said:


> I agree, and the industry is under payed as a whole. But even offering starting wages north of $30 doesn’t get anything


I make 48$ and hour cutting timber I would love to work in a tree trimming outfit but you don’t get paid by employees ware I live at that rate. Also people are sht dodo these days people arnt interested in real work anymore it’s mostly a problem with or culture and society to coddled bunch of ninies I’m 34 and don’t know anyone my age that dose what I do in a day 2 loads of saw logs 9-10 hours of work then cut firewood it never ends weekend or if I get off early go to the charcoal plant and run the loader cutting up pulp wood with a slasher and bundle.


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