# Chip and bucket truck mods



## mikewhite85 (Aug 4, 2022)

Hey guys. Thought I'd see if you guys have any thoughts on some potential trucks mods/builds I'm considering.

I recently bought 2 trucks to expand our crew and capabilities:
f650 dump truck with 16/ bed
f750 bucket with 75' elevator boom
I have both at a fabricator shop now to clean them up.

In addition to this we already have:
f650 60' forestery bucket
f350 12' Dump (almost always overloaded with chips)
F450 flatbed with mini skid ramp, tool boxes, and transfer tank- to haul dump trailer. Sometimes use to haul both mini skid and tractor simultaneously.
f350 crew cab flat bed. often in tandem with 16' ultility trailer to haul mini skid and stump grinder.


Originally I had thought I would just turn the 650 into a 16' chip dump truck and use the f750 as is but then I started thinking...

I have one CDL driver on our team, who is also the main bucket guy. I found out the f750 weighs 25,600 empty. So I could classify it as 26k under cdl if my drivers have air brake endorsements. I don't think I'd do this since 2 guys wet will weigh over 400 pounds in the cab. I'm not sure if I've ever seen an elevator truck under CDL. But it was a thought...

THAT SAID, I had an idea. Tell if I'm crazy or not.

What if we take the 3000 pound or so 11' chip bed off of the f750 and weld it to the f650 dump? Then we could create a mini skid platform on the dump between the cab and the dump bed.

Then we could install a light weight flat bed on the f750 bucket where the chip box was previously. I could leave the dump hoist underneath and could use it to haul plywood- or even put some small log bunks on the side to haul the occasional saw log. Without the chip box I'd have at least a couple thousand pounds to play with under 26k.

So basically, we would have a sick chip truck with mini skid platform AND an under CDL elevator truck that could haul light loads.

Does that makes sense? What do you guys think? Have you guys done any similar projects?


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## pdqdl (Aug 5, 2022)

You said:


mikewhite85 said:


> ...I found out the f750 weighs 25,600 empty. So I could classify it as 26k under cdl if my drivers have air brake endorsements. I don't think I'd do this since 2 guys wet will weigh over 400 pounds in the cab. I'm not sure if I've ever seen an elevator truck under CDL. But it was a thought...



No, you can't.

It makes no difference whatsoever how much the truck actually *weighs*. The thing that counts is what the manufacturer printed on the plate inside the driver's door. This is what is called the GVWR. Even if you strip that truck down to an 8,000lb sports model, it's *G*ross *V*ehicle *W*eight *R*ating will remain unchanged. Similarly, you can pile all sorts of equipment onto that truck and it might tip the scales at 32K on an under 26K GVWR. I don't think, however, that you can find an under-CDL truck with air brakes on it. I'll bet the GVWR of your truck is somewhere close to 30K (12k front axle, 18K rear axle)

In the final analysis, you would be wasting your time moving equipment around to manage the truck's weight for CDL considerations alone, when the actual weight has no bearing on the GVWR of a truck. You'd do all that work, and nothing would have changed with respect to the driver's license required for each truck.

As to getting an air brake endorsement on a non-cdl license? I don't think that is possible, but I might be wrong.


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## pdqdl (Aug 5, 2022)

I suspect that the one CDL driver on your team isn't you, otherwise you would probably have known the stuff in my previous post.

Get the book and study up. Put a chipper on the back of that CDL truck, practice your pre-trip inspections, and learn how to get that CDL license yourself. It really isn't that hard to do.

Once you become expert at getting the license, now you can train your other guys to get their own license, and you don't have to sweat the details about getting a driver. With more than one CDL driver, you won't be handicapped so badly with your work assignments to the crew and you won't be quite as likely to put up with misconduct from a bad-actor with the only CDL on your team (should you ever have that problem).

BTW: Don't EVER hire a CDL driver without getting a drug test before you let them sit behind the wheel. That comes with a $2000 fine from the USDOT, should they ever audit you.


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## mikewhite85 (Aug 7, 2022)

Wise words.

I'll leave the bucket as is, aside from cosmetic repairs. I suppose we'll all have to start working on that CDL. 

Question, is a class A required for any _combination_ above 26k? I've heard that you can have a 26k truck and as long as the trailer is less than 10k you're ok with a class C. For example, do you technically need a class A to tow a 6500 pound chipper behind a 26k F650?

Still deciding what to do with that f650 dump. I could fabricate a mini skid platform between the cab and a 12 dump bed- OR just create a 16' chip box. I'l definitely be skirting the line on overweight with a full load of chips.


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## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2022)

Class A is any combination of a vehicle over 26k OR any trailer over 10k. Even a child's wagon strapped to the back of a Class B vehicle make it Class A.

My one ton truck towing a 10,001 GVWR trailer is also a class A combination. Now that particular combination doesn't require air brakes, which would leave you unable to drive your over 26k Class B truck.


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## tree MDS (Aug 7, 2022)

Dude, that’s completely wrong.

For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.

The loophole is that you can tow a trailer over 10k as long as the combined weight is under 26,000 (maybe technically 26,001, I forget offhand).

I hope I said that as NICELY as possible!!


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## tree MDS (Aug 7, 2022)

And you can tow any trailer up to 10,000 gvwr in a class B truck (if you have a class B) without a class A.


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## lone wolf (Aug 7, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Dude, that’s completely wrong.
> 
> For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.
> 
> ...


Well that's interesting.


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## tree MDS (Aug 7, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> Wise words.
> 
> I'll leave the bucket as is, aside from cosmetic repairs. I suppose we'll all have to start working on that CDL.
> 
> ...



No.


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## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Dude, that’s completely wrong.
> 
> For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.
> 
> ...



<Erroneous statements have been deleted>

You are right. I stand corrected!
If your truck combination is OVER 26k (GCWR), then it's class A or B according to the GVWR of your "towed vehicle". Your truck combination is under 26k GVWR, so without an over 10k trailer, it's at most a class B license, and possibly just a class E "for hire" license required (with medical, as you mentioned). ONLY, however, if the Gross Carrier Weight Rating (both vehicles) is less than 26,001lbs.
So your 17,000lb GVWR Ford F-450 plus your dumping trailer with a GVWR of 10k (under 10,001 lbs!) still requires a class B CDL. Add an air brake endorsement if your truck has 'em.

Not clearly stated: I don't think the Federal DOT regulates below 26k. Your state may vary, but Missouri requires a "for hire" license, even if you are driving your own car to deliver pizza. As I recall, Kansas does not have any such requirement, so that will be a local item to discover for each state.

Air brakes are a separate endorsement, regardless of the GVWR or the class of license, as you somewhat suggested. In my experience, most trucks with air brakes are over 26k GVWR, but that's not a rule of any sort. Quite frankly, I don't know if any air brake endorsement is required on an under 26k truck. I've never read anything in the driver's guides about that.


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## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2022)

In your state: "A combination vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds. "

Read up here: https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DMV/20/29/CTCDLDriverManualFINAL122015pdf.pdf

This _might_ help:

It's no wonder folks have a hard time figuring these rules out. 
Notice that step one on this chart from the Mo. CDL handbook calls for an answer to less than 26k G*C*WR, yet following that no answer, they point straight at the "is it over 26k GVWR" question. I don't think it is possible to say "no" to the under 26k GCWR and still say "yes" to over 26K GVWR.


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## ClimberBusinessman (Aug 8, 2022)

You're right, you can have a 10k gvwr trailer and a 26,000k rated truck and be under CDL.

*"Question: A driver operates a tractor of exactly 26,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), towing a trailer of exactly 10,000 pounds GVWR, for a GCWR of 36,000 pounds. Hazardous materials and passengers are not involved. Is it a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV)s and does the driver need a CDL?

Guidance*: No to both questions. Although the vehicle has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 36,000 pounds, it is not a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) under any part of the definition of that term in 49 C.F.R.§383.5, and a CDL is not federally required."






Commercial Vehicle Information







www.in.gov






However, if you go over 10k rating on trailer, you have to have a CDL unless the total can kept under 26,000k. For a truck, you can never exceed 26,000k rating without a CDL. However, getting a CDL these days does unfortunately require truck driving school. This is a new rule the DOT did a year or two ago.



mikewhite85 said:


> Wise words.
> 
> I'll leave the bucket as is, aside from cosmetic repairs. I suppose we'll all have to start working on that CDL.
> 
> ...


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## pdqdl (Aug 8, 2022)

From your link: (for a Class A CDL) "A gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater."

That sounds like it goes back to my original statement of "any" combination of 26k+ and any trailer. Confusing, eh?

And in my state ANY combination with a 10k trailer is CDL A required. MORE confusion, as that is in direct conflict with your state's rules.

Now I'm not saying you are wrong, but it sounds like Indiana wrote their rules wrong. At no point does that text refer to Gross Carrier Weight Rating by that term, so they clearly are not following the federal guidelines very precisely.


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2022)

I think you guys are making this too complicated. 

I could have a guy with a regular license and med card tow my lift and trailer with a 14k gvwr with a one ton or 3/4 ton , as long as the gvcwr doesn’t go over 26000lbs. At least that’s the way I understand it. 

I don’t do it that way, but as a tree guy, knowing the dmv loopholes is kinda part of the deal imo.


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## pdqdl (Aug 8, 2022)

Possibly. If your 14k GVWR trailer is being towed by anything bigger than a 12,001k truck, you just crossed over into CDL country. If you can get by with a lighter truck, you are in business.

I began all the CDL learning process many years ago. There I was, bumbling down the highway towing my 21k rated trailer with my one-ton. No problem, right? Mr. DOT pulled me over, read the GVWR on the trailer, and then started writing me up. He told me in no uncertain terms that with that 10k trailer, I had to have a CDL.

So I took the ID tag off the trailer! That held 'em off for a couple more years, but they got to the point where they weren't accepting the absence of an ID tag as a reason to not enforce the GVWR rules. I ended up going down to the license bureau to take the CDL test on the last permissable date to "grandfather" a chauffeur's license into a CDL. Unfortunately, even though it was the last legal day to take the test, the examiner refused to let me have it. So... I had to do all the same exams that they make you take now.


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2022)

A “Cheauferer’s license”. Lol. Nice try.


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2022)

Getting my class A was single-handedly the best move I ever made for my little company. 

It allowed me to buy the equipment I wanted, not the equipment I was allowed to drive/tow.


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## sean donato (Aug 8, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> <Erroneous statements have been deleted>
> 
> You are right. I stand corrected!
> If your truck combination is OVER 26k (GCWR), then it's class A or B according to the GVWR of your "towed vehicle". Your truck combination is under 26k GVWR, so without an over 10k trailer, it's at most a class B license, and possibly just a class E "for hire" license required (with medical, as you mentioned). ONLY, however, if the Gross Carrier Weight Rating (both vehicles) is less than 26,001lbs.
> ...


State regulations are a nightmare to figure out. 
Most recently I have been told here in PA. I need to combination weight my pickup for any trailer over 10k lbs regardless if the gcwr is under 26klbs even though I have my class A cdl. So technically my 14klb dump trailer behind my f250 is illegal even though its strictly for personal use, I'm not over any gvwr or gcwr, and have a class A cdl. On the rare occasion the dump is fully loaded im right over 20klbs. 
Also here at least you can have the gvwr and gcwr lowered to under cdl weight, but as far as I know you still need the air brake endorsement to drive it.


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## pdqdl (Aug 8, 2022)

I'm not sure what you are saying. It sounds like you are suggesting that you cannot exceed your GVWR with your actual gross weight. 

I've never come across that, and I have been scaled with my trucks at about 10,000 lbs over the trucks GVWR. Exceeding the GVWR is not one of the five ways to get an overweight ticket.


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## capetrees (Aug 8, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Dude, that’s completely wrong.
> 
> For starters my international 4300 chip truck is 25,500 gvw (or whatever), air brakes, and you can tow any trailer you want with just a med card (as long as it’s under 10,000 pound gvw). No air brake endorsement nothing. The trailer being 10k or over is what makes it class A. Any Joe Blow Cumberland Farms retard with a regular drivers license can tow my 6800lb chipper with that truck with just a med card and regular license (not that that’s the goal lol). The catch is you have to be at least 18,, not 14 Lol.
> 
> ...


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## capetrees (Aug 8, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Getting my class A was single-handedly the best move I ever made for my little company.
> 
> It allowed me to buy the equipment I wanted, not the equipment I was allowed to drive/tow.


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## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> A “Cheauferer’s license”. Lol. Nice try.



Is you picking on my spelling, or the class of driving license?

Back when each state had their own licensing system, *if you wanted to be a truck driver, you were required to have a "chauffeur's" license*. There were only three licenses available: beginner's permit, a regular driver's license, and the chauffeur's license.

Getting your chauffeur's license was a piece of cake, too. The written test included a couple of extra questions like stuff about how long something could stick out the end of a truck before it had to have a flag tied on it, and there were questions about the required insurance. The driving test was essentially the same as the regular driving test, but the officers were a bit pickier about determining whether or not you qualified.

I still remember each of the point deductions that the officer gave me on my Chauffer's driving test. He was a prick, and took the full 6 point value off my parallel park because I touched the curb. Of course, there was a very slight downhill slope, and you are supposed to park with the front wheel aimed into the curb. So I gently and carefully pulled down until the tire touched the curb (like the driver's guide says you should do).
_The examiners were well known to never let anyone have a perfect score._

I did a fair amount of time driving across the country in a semi-truck, operating only with my chauffer's license, so don't be laughing! I can't help it if you are just a newbie and don't know any better.


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## mikewhite85 (Aug 10, 2022)

Looks like since Feb 7th of this year it's not quite as easy to get your CDL. All new applicants need to take an Entry Level Driver Training Course- even if you want to upgrade from a class B to an A. It includes classroom and hands on training. It's a new Federal standard for commercial drivers


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## pdqdl (Aug 11, 2022)

That might explain the CDL Driver wanted signs all over the country.


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## _tice11 (Aug 11, 2022)

Mike I would definitely leave the bucket truck alone. Messing around with the body is only going to save some minor weight. You'll definitely end up overweight. If you leave it as is you still keep the option for chips or logs. And you can even stuff that mini up in there with some long ramps.

The 650 I could see getting creative with. I would start by finding the empty weight and then doing some math to find out what you can really hold. I've read 550lbs per yard is the standard weight used for chips and that seems to be pretty accurate from what I've weighed (obviously sometimes they'll weigh more, sometimes less). And then LxWxH divided by 27 to get to cubic yards. I'm about to buy an older 17500gvwr f550 with a 9ft dump body that I have to build a box for. I want to fit as much as I can in that thing.

I personally think a mini platform behind the cab would be an awesome move if you're trying to condense the amount of equipment at a job. It would always be with you in a dedicated space. You could take one truck to a job. And there would be no going back for the mini. But if you're already happy with how you transport your mini and you have the trucks/equipment to do so, I think a big chip box would be a great option. Less trips to dump is a great thing. I'm really no help I think either is a good move.


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## mikewhite85 (Aug 11, 2022)

Thanks for the helpful advice guys. Per your suggestions we've decided to keep the 750 as is aside from cosmetic touch ups. And then we will add a 2ft tool box between the cab and dump of the 650. The fabricator who is currently working on it is pretty top notch so I'm looking forward to seeing the final product. 

It's crazy that the government would add more red tape and expense for an industry that desperately needs more help. I found a local guy who will come to us and do the class a cdl training for 3600 per person, which is apparently a pretty good deal compared to the national trucking schools. 

I will have significant tax write offs this year!


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## pdqdl (Aug 11, 2022)

Here is something to consider guys: You can be your own CDL trainer. Yep. 
From the Missouri rules, quoting the Federal rules: 
"Training schools, educational institutions, rural electric cooperatives, *motor carriers*, State and local governments, school districts, joint labor-management programs, *owner-operators, and individuals *may be listed on the Training Provider Registry. Eligible providers may provide training either on a “for-hire” or “not-for-hire” basis. Any training provider meeting the eligibility requirements could be qualified to provide entry-level driver training, regardless of whether they fall within a category specifically identified in the regulations.​




Training Provider Registry







tpr.fmcsa.dot.gov



​Now I haven't looked into all the steps required for becoming a "Training Provider", but I'll bet it isn't that tough. If it pays $3600 per head (for guys that already know how to drive), I might have to start me a driver's school, because that sounds easier than cutting down trees.

The way it looks is like this: you need to have two levels of instructor certification. A Behind The Wheel instructor, and a "Theory" instructor that has two years of work under their belt as a BTW instructor. So... it would take a fairly dedicated motor carrier to develop their own training program to get their instructors qualified. 



Federal Register :: Request Access


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## pdqdl (Aug 11, 2022)

Uh oh. I found the rules for that driver training school. The feds did NOT make it easy.



Federal Register :: Request Access


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## ClimberBusinessman (Aug 13, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> From your link: (for a Class A CDL) "A gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater."
> 
> That sounds like it goes back to my original statement of "any" combination of 26k+ and any trailer. Confusing, eh?
> 
> ...


Let's settle this "maximum weight without a CDL" debate once and for all. 
Regarding the previous quote, the key term, if you read carefully behind the legalese of the lines, is that it refers to* TOWED* units with a gross weight of more than 10,000 pounds when the truck is above 26,000. (Emphasis added). 

Here's an official administrative interpretation directly from the USDOT, so it's the universal federal rule that applies to all states:
*Question 6: *A driver operates a tractor of exactly 26,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), towing a trailer of exactly 10,000 pounds GVWR, for a GCWR of 36,000 pounds. HM and passengers are not involved. Is it a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV)s and does the driver need a CDL?

_Guidance:_ No to both questions. Although the vehicle has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 36,000 pounds, it is not a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) under any part of the definition of that term in §383.5, and a CDL is not federally required." 

And here's the link to the website where that interpretation can be found: https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/advisory-committees/mcsac/fmcsa-regulatory-guidance 
Note that the link is a Word file, so you'll need Word or OpenOffice to open it. 

And here's an industry source summarizing the requirements:
"For example, a truck with a GVWR of 26,000 pounds or less can tow a trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less and not require the operator to have a CDL under federal requirements." https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_be...GVWR_and_GCWR_in_specifying_work_trucks1.aspx

I hope this clarifies things.


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

So my lift trailer has a 14k gvw. Should be able to tow it without any cdl if the combined weight of the truck and trailer remains at or under 26,000lbs. 

My question is what would be a good diesel pickup that has a gvwr of 12,000lbs or under? (I’m kinda partial to GMC’s with smaller trucks). I’m just trying to figure out what I should start looking for down the line. I love my 11,420lb Omme’s, but that class A bs is just too much if it can be avoided safely.


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

So check this out.. upon further thoughts, it appears I may have an under cdl lift towing combination right here on site!!

Last time I added the numbers up I came up with my old Chevy towing the (14,999lb) lift trailer as a few hundred pounds over. But it had been in the back of my mind that my old man had me register it as heavy as possible back in the day. (don’t ask me, I was 23). But I had a sneaking suspicion it was over manufacturer’s recommended gvw. Took a flashlight, camera phone and some searching to find the original gvw which I had carefully taped off when we painted the cab way back when. Haha, check out the math on this one!!

14,999 gvw for the trailer and 11,000 for the truck!! 25,999lbs total combined gvwr (or whatever). Lol.

I have been meaning to restore this old school bad dog forever, but now I have a reason!! Thinking maybe even a diesel conversion instead of the 454 I have that I planned on building. Pretty ****ing cool if you ask me!!


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## pdqdl (Aug 14, 2022)

Just remember: The only thing that counts is the GCWR. You need to have your combination licensed for not less than the weight you are actually driving around with. The license bureau doesn't care about GVWR, but that Highway patrolman with the scales sure does.


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Just remember: The only thing that counts is the GCWR. You need to have your combination licensed for not less than the weight you are actually driving around with. The license bureau doesn't care about GVWR, but that Highway patrolman with the scales sure does.



Yes, whatever, but do you see anything illegal in this plan? I get that a diesel would be heavier on the scales, but honestly, nobody has ever put us on a scale in our limited travels anyway.

I could always go with the built 454 like originally planned anyway. That would certainly keep it cheaper (and lighter). I just know that lift trailer can put up a fight towing it.


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

So a quick google search reveals an approximate 100lbs difference between the big block Chevy and the small block. Most of which could be negated if I went with aluminum heads, surely.


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## mikewhite85 (Aug 14, 2022)

Clever idea


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## pdqdl (Aug 14, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Yes, whatever, but do you see anything illegal in this plan? I get that a diesel would be heavier on the scales, but honestly, nobody has ever put us on a scale in our limited travels anyway.
> 
> I could always go with the built 454 like originally planned anyway. That would certainly keep it cheaper (and lighter). I just know that lift trailer can put up a fight towing it.



In light of my new understanding of the rules, it all looks good to me. None of my trucks could fit that. They come in at 14k - 17k. That and my 20k trailer says CDL-A

I'd just license it for close to what you plan for a maximum weight. It doesn't cost too much more for a little bit of extra weight, and it will make a big difference on fines, should you ever get caught. Check your insurance, however. They might be billing you on the licensed weight, at which point you might choose to gamble with a lighter weight.


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> In light of my new understanding of the rules, it all looks good to me. None of my trucks could fit that. They come in at 14k - 17k. That and my 20k trailer says CDL-A
> 
> I'd just license it for close to what you plan for a maximum weight. It doesn't cost too much more for a little bit of extra weight, and it will make a big difference on fines, should you ever get caught. Check your insurance, however. They might be billing you on the licensed weight, at which point you might choose to gamble with a lighter weight.



I only got two pounds or so to play with lol. Might need an aluminum intake and water pump too lol


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> Clever idea



The old school swamp yankee never truly fades away, bud! Lol


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## pdqdl (Aug 14, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> I only got two pounds or so to play with lol. Might need an aluminum intake and water pump too lol



Nope. I sure hope you are teasing me with that comment.

What it actually weighs is irrelevant except to your license plate. All you need to worry about is what the manufacturer's labels for GVWR add up to. Be sure you are looking at the GVWR, and not the manufactured weight. Being wrong could get expensive.


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## tree MDS (Aug 14, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Nope. I sure hope you are teasing me with that comment.
> 
> What it actually weighs is irrelevant except to your license plate. All you need to worry about is what the manufacturer's labels for GVWR add up to. Be sure you are looking at the GVWR, and not the manufactured weight. Being wrong could get expensive.



Ain’t no 88 Chevy one ton that weighs 11,000lbs leaving the assembly line if that’s what you’re suggesting? Lol


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## pdqdl (Aug 14, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Ain’t no 88 Chevy one ton that weighs 11,000lbs leaving the assembly line if that’s what you’re suggesting? Lol



I had a couple that weighed right beneath 10k, and they had light duty dump beds. A heavy duty dumper would get there quick, especially if you added 4wd.

To be honest, I didn't pay too much attention to what the description was. I saw an 11k GVWR, and I thought that was kinda light. Maybe Chevys are a bit lighter than the Fords.


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## serdie (Aug 15, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> I had a couple that weighed right beneath 10k, and they had light duty dump beds. A heavy duty dumper would get there quick, especially if you added 4wd.
> 
> To be honest, I didn't pay too much attention to what the description was. I saw an 11k GVWR, and I thought that was kinda light. Maybe Chevys are a bit lighter than the Fords.


Our 2000 K3500 GMC dump truck with me in it weighs 8200 lbs. it’s a big block gas truck.


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## ClimberBusinessman (Aug 15, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> So a quick google search reveals an approximate 100lbs difference between the big block Chevy and the small block. Most of which could be negated if I went with aluminum heads, surely.


Looks legal to me as long as the registered weight is as you describe. Since you're keeping the total registered (and actual) weight under 26k, you can tow more than a 10k trailer (in your case, you have a 14k rating ) for the trailer. Definitely don't pull that trailer behind a 26k rated chip truck unless you have a CDL. The most you'd be able to pull behind a 26k rated truck is a 10k rated trailer if you want to stay under cdl.


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## ClimberBusinessman (Aug 15, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Yes, whatever, but do you see anything illegal in this plan? I get that a diesel would be heavier on the scales, but honestly, nobody has ever put us on a scale in our limited travels anyway.
> 
> I could always go with the built 454 like originally planned anyway. That would certainly keep it cheaper (and lighter). I just know that lift trailer can put up a fight towing it.


As far as I'm aware, you can certainly do that. Just be aware that that increasing the empty/curb weight eats into your legal towing/payload capacity. Your 11,000 gvwr truck probably only weighs in at 6,000 pounds empty, and you might increase it by 500 pounds or more by going with a diesel, so that will eat into your towing and payload capacity. The main thing, at least as far as I'm aware, is that you don't exceed the sticker ratings and that both your sticker ratings and actual/scale weight is either under 26,000, or under 36,000 if you do the 26k truck plus 10k rated trailer method.
Here's a brief paraphrase/summarization of a few of the rules if you wish to remain in compliance without a CDL:


The registered truck + trailer combined weight as well as scale weight total needs to stay under 26,000 *if *towing a trailer above 10,000 pounds. 
Never exceed 26,000 registered or scale weight on the truck.
Never exceed 10,000 pound registered or scale weight on the trailer* if *the total combined weight is above 26,000 (i.e. a 20,000 pound truck can have a maximum 10,000 pound trailer since the combined total is 30,000 pounds, which is above the 26,000 pounds).


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## pdqdl (Aug 15, 2022)

ClimberBusinessman said:


> As far as I'm aware, you can certainly do that. Just be aware that that increasing the empty/curb weight eats into your legal towing/payload capacity.


Ahhh... Not really. While it certainly eats into the rated capacity, the legal capacity is unconcerned by how what the GVWR of any vehicle is.
There are FIVE ways to get an overweight ticket:

You can exceed the allowable weight limit on any road or structure. This is your gross weight. 
You can exceed the allowed weight on any axle, even if you are not over the gross weight restriction. In this case, the axle rating is very important, and determines your ticket.
You can exceed the allowed weight on any tire, even if you are not over the gross weight or the axle weights. In this case, the tire rating is very important,
You can exceed the allowed weight on a road or structure according to the "Bridge Law". This is somewhat complex formula that requires trucks of a certain weight to not be too short, effectively putting all the weight in ome spot on the bridge.
You can exceed the licensed weight. This is a simple matter of not buying a plate heavy enough to allow your gross vehicle weight to pass down the road legally.



ClimberBusinessman said:


> Your 11,000 gvwr truck probably only weighs in at 6,000 pounds empty, and you might increase it by 500 pounds or more by going with a diesel, so that will eat into your towing and payload capacity. The main thing, at least as far as I'm aware, is that you don't exceed the sticker ratings and that both your sticker ratings and actual/scale weight is either under 26,000, or under 36,000 if you do the 26k truck plus 10k rated trailer method.
> Here's a brief paraphrase/summarization of a few of the rules if you wish to remain in compliance without a CDL:
> 
> 
> The registered truck + trailer combined weight as well as scale weight total needs to stay under 26,000 *if *towing a trailer above 10,000 pounds.


I have never seen any CDL regulation that remarks upon the actual weight of the vehicle. *Got any links that support that statement*? (It makes perfect sense to me that some state might include such language, however)




ClimberBusinessman said:


> Never exceed 26,000 registered or scale weight on the truck.
> Never exceed 10,000 pound registered or scale weight on the trailer* if *the total combined weight is above 26,000 (i.e. a 20,000 pound truck can have a maximum 10,000 pound trailer since the combined total is 30,000 pounds, which is above the 26,000 pounds).


Again, I've never seen any CDL license regulations that refer to a scaled weight. It's all about the GVWR for trucks, and GCWR for combinations.


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## tree MDS (Aug 16, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> So check this out.. upon further thoughts, it appears I may have an under cdl lift towing combination right here on site!!
> 
> Last time I added the numbers up I came up with my old Chevy towing the (14,999lb) lift trailer as a few hundred pounds over. But it had been in the back of my mind that my old man had me register it as heavy as possible back in the day. (don’t ask me, I was 23). But I had a sneaking suspicion it was over manufacturer’s recommended gvw. Took a flashlight, camera phone and some searching to find the original gvw which I had carefully taped off when we painted the cab way back when. Haha, check out the math on this one!!
> 
> ...


Registration says the truck weighs 4900lbs lightweight. I just wanna re-register it at the 11,000lbgvw it’s supposed to be at, then build the heck out of that little truck, 454 built, etc. I think it’ll be even more handy than it already is. 

I have been through all these equipment journeys, will be nice to go back to the beginning and start with the real, first dog,, give him his do. A hot rod Chevy one ton dually dump. I think it is time. 

It’ll be fun too, and that’s the most important thing anyway.


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## pdqdl (Aug 16, 2022)

What are you calling the "registration" ? 

I always thought that the registration was the pink receipt you get after you license a vehicle. I don't recall that those even mention the GVWR. I'm pretty sure that will be listing your licensed weight.

I don't recall ever seeing them list the empty weight. Looking one of mine up...

Nope! Missouri truck registration doesn't even mention how much I'm licensed for. _Other states might, however_.


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## ClimberBusinessman (Aug 20, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Ahhh... Not really. While it certainly eats into the rated capacity, the legal capacity is unconcerned by how what the GVWR of any vehicle is.
> There are FIVE ways to get an overweight ticket:
> 
> You can exceed the allowable weight limit on any road or structure. This is your gross weight.
> ...


By combined weight, I meant approved/registered combined weight ratings (GCVWR).


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## 661Joe (Aug 22, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> View attachment 1007710
> View attachment 1007711
> 
> 
> ...


How you like that 75ft truck? I just bought one will be here tmr at 6pm can’t sleep why im on here. Haha mine weighs 23000# just the truck and is air brakes as well. Definitely a b with air until the big trailer gets hooked to it. I also want to add ( ANY VEHICLE used to make money for a company is technically a commercial vehicle it really depends we’re you live. You can get in a 90000# big rig drive all over the states as long as your not makeing money with it all it takes is a regular drivers license. Once you make money your in a commercial vehicle. Then your weight/combination will determine your license needs. If you get pulled over with no cdl or over weight and know you don’t have a class A if you wanna LIE tell them it’s personal use watch how mad they get….


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## pdqdl (Aug 23, 2022)

That's a plan that won't work. You would get pulled over constantly for not displaying your permits and DOT number, as well as your signage. Then with no permits and signs, they gonna make you open the cargo area up for inspection.

As far as I know, you still need the class A license, whether or not you are driving it commercially. When you take the test, nothing in the process asks you whether or not you are driving it commercially.


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## 661Joe (Aug 23, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> That's a plan that won't work. You would get pulled over constantly for not displaying your permits and DOT number, as well as your signage. Then with no permits and signs, they gonna make you open the cargo area up for inspection.
> 
> As far as I know, you still need the class A license, whether or not you are driving it commercially. When you take the test, nothing in the process asks you whether or not you are driving it commercially.


Wrong I won’t get into a pissing match but if you own the rig and your claiming to not use it commercially they can’t do anything about it I promise you that. Also just because it’s a Commercial vehicle doesn’t mean you have to have DOT numbers. There’s a lot that Pertain specifically to what you are driving and what you were doing with said vehicle. The reason some of these rigs have (not for hire) on the side of them along with race car car haulers that have not for higher on the side of them is because they are not a commercial vehicle therefore they are not for higher therefore anybody with a standard drivers license can drive them. Just like my crane many people are not educated enough to understand that a piece of machinery that is classified as mobile machinery does not technically need a license plate it’s mobile machinery. Same with chippers mobile machinery. Bottom line is there is so many great gray areas that you should just get your clase A and get educated for your specific state remember I live in Michigan so take all of this with a grain of salt.


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## 661Joe (Aug 23, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> That's a plan that won't work. You would get pulled over constantly for not displaying your permits and DOT number, as well as your signage. Then with no permits and signs, they gonna make you open the cargo area up for inspection.
> 
> As far as I know, you still need the class A license, whether or not you are driving it commercially. When you take the test, nothing in the process asks you whether or not you are driving it commercially.


And the reason they do not ask you if you are going to be driving commercially when you apply to get a CDL which is a commercials drivers license I think that’s probably why they don’t ask you. Not being a **** either I mean all this with the most respect towards everyone


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## 661Joe (Aug 23, 2022)

Call the state police department and ask them if I own a semi and I want to drive it Accross the country can I? Simple answer will be yes as long as it’s not used for profit. If your not makeing money with it it’s not a Commercial vehicle. Now if you have your company truck name dot number all that and get stopped and you should have a class a cdl then you are in the wrong. If you lied and said your truck your company but helping a friend out not using it for work and could prove that I bet you don’t get a ticket if that cop proves you was making money with it. Your ass is grass.


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## pdqdl (Aug 23, 2022)

Yeah, but as I said before, you are going to get a personal talking to with every scale that is open. If you have commercial signage, then you will need that CDL. Without the signage, then they will pull you over every time to inquire where your signs are. 

Now I don't know what they do to confirm whether or not you are commercial, but I'll bet you have a damn tough time convincing them that a 75' reach bucket truck with chipper on the pintle hitch at the rear is just your personal camper for a trip to the vacation property out of state.


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## 661Joe (Aug 23, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Yeah, but as I said before, you are going to get a personal talking to with every scale that is open. If you have commercial signage, then you will need that CDL. Without the signage, then they will pull you over every time to inquire where your signs are.
> 
> Now I don't know what they do to confirm whether or not you are commercial, but I'll bet you have a damn tough time convincing them that a 75' reach bucket truck with chipper on the pintle hitch at the rear is just your personal camper for a trip to the vacation property out of state.


I agree 100%


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## pdqdl (Aug 23, 2022)

661Joe said:


> Wrong I won’t get into a pissing match but if you own the rig and your claiming to not use it commercially they can’t do anything about it I promise you that. Also just because it’s a Commercial vehicle doesn’t mean you have to have DOT numbers. There’s a lot that Pertain specifically to what you are driving and what you were doing with said vehicle. The reason some of these rigs have (not for hire) on the side of them along with race car car haulers that have not for higher on the side of them is because they are not a commercial vehicle therefore they are not for higher therefore anybody with a standard drivers license can drive them. Just like my crane many people are not educated enough to understand that a piece of machinery that is classified as mobile machinery does not technically need a license plate it’s mobile machinery. Same with chippers mobile machinery. Bottom line is there is so many great gray areas that you should just get your clase A and get educated for your specific state remember I live in Michigan so take all of this with a grain of salt.



ALL commercial vehicles that require a CDL require a Federal DOT number, providing they cross state lines. I don't know about intrastate, as my shop is a stone's throw from State Line. Pizza delivery cars? Probably not.


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## pdqdl (Aug 23, 2022)

661Joe said:


> Call the state police department and ask them if I own a semi and I want to drive it Accross the country can I? Simple answer will be yes as long as it’s not used for profit. If your not makeing money with it it’s not a Commercial vehicle. Now if you have your company truck name dot number all that and get stopped and you should have a class a cdl then you are in the wrong. If you lied and said your truck your company but helping a friend out not using it for work and could prove that I bet you don’t get a ticket if that cop proves you was making money with it. Your ass is grass.


If driving a friend's vehicle? You would still get hung out to dry.

By your theoretical situation, that is a commercial vehicle, regardless of who is behind the wheel. It's license and insurance (and probably DOT#) all will stipulate that the guy behind the wheel better have a CDL.


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## 661Joe (Aug 23, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> If driving a friend's vehicle? You would still get hung out to dry.
> 
> By your theoretical situation, that is a commercial vehicle, regardless of who is behind the wheel. It's license and insurance (and probably DOT#) all will stipulate that the guy behind the wheel better have a CDL.


My argument was a big rig with no information on it. It’s late I’ll look at this and reply more in depth tomorrow. But honestly bottom line if you own it and are not using it for commercial use then you can drive anything you want. If it’s sticker up then you might have a hard time proving your not makeing money with it.


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## 661Joe (Aug 23, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> If driving a friend's vehicle? You would still get hung out to dry.
> 
> By your theoretical situation, that is a commercial vehicle, regardless of who is behind the wheel. It's license and insurance (and probably DOT#) all will stipulate that the guy behind the wheel better have a CDL.


Just looked you need to read my post again never said driveing the friends rig


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## pdqdl (Aug 23, 2022)

661Joe said:


> If you lied and said your truck your company but helping a friend out not using it for work



I stand corrected on the theoretical scenario, but that doesn't really change anything.


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## joe25DA (Aug 26, 2022)

In Massachusetts, I run into some BS dealing with trucks. I have an 84 GMC C30 rated for 11k. 2wd with a dump bed, 4speed and a mild built small block. Weighs in at 6k, light for a 1ton dump. It has the heavy duty 14 bolt with huge drums, bigger and thicker C&C FRame with re-enforcement from the factory (more that I added) new 13 pack leafs with helpers, 6.2 diesel front springs and lower control arms (cheap way to lift the front of a gas square body and get the bigger springs). The lower weight is a 2wd reg cab, gas engine, no computers/safety **** and a sparse interior. Keeps the payload high relative to the registered weight. Now…I have the truck registered for 10k even. I have to register commercial ($200 for 1 year) since it’s dual wheels. At 10,001 you need a DOT inspection. I don’t need to. But every year I have to remind the inspector that it’s commercial/nonDOT. I hate going it’s always a problem but I always get a sticker.


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## 661Joe (Aug 27, 2022)

joe25DA said:


> In Massachusetts, I run into some BS dealing with trucks. I have an 84 GMC C30 rated for 11k. 2wd with a dump bed, 4speed and a mild built small block. Weighs in at 6k, light for a 1ton dump. It has the heavy duty 14 bolt with huge drums, bigger and thicker C&C FRame with re-enforcement from the factory (more that I added) new 13 pack leafs with helpers, 6.2 diesel front springs and lower control arms (cheap way to lift the front of a gas square body and get the bigger springs). The lower weight is a 2wd reg cab, gas engine, no computers/safety **** and a sparse interior. Keeps the payload high relative to the registered weight. Now…I have the truck registered for 10k even. I have to register commercial ($200 for 1 year) since it’s dual wheels. At 10,001 you need a DOT inspection. I don’t need to. But every year I have to remind the inspector that it’s commercial/nonDOT. I hate going it’s always a problem but I always get a sticker.


I just bought a bucket truck out of Ma all kinds of stickers on it for inspections and such. Seems y’all do allot more then we do in Mi


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## joe25DA (Aug 27, 2022)

661Joe said:


> I just bought a bucket truck out of Ma all kinds of stickers on it for inspections and such. Seems y’all do allot more then we do in Mi


In this limp wristed state, if you have your own business, own firearm(s), own a home, or value individualism it can be difficult. Worse if you live in a city. In the town I’m in its great. But the state ******** that you can’t avoid (inspections, registration) suck. In Mass, you need a liscence to buy a firearm. Have to take a safety course, submit to your PD, then it get proecessed thru the state police. In Boston or the towns outside it, almost impossible. Similar with the other cities. With the trucks, DOT is always looking to bag guys. But, every time I go to the scrap yard some junky will pull in with a beat to piss 1/2 ton truck, dragging the bumper overloaded with a valid inspection sticker.


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## 661Joe (Aug 30, 2022)

joe25DA said:


> In this limp wristed state, if you have your own business, own firearm(s), own a home, or value individualism it can be difficult. Worse if you live in a city. In the town I’m in its great. But the state ******** that you can’t avoid (inspections, registration) suck. In Mass, you need a liscence to buy a firearm. Have to take a safety course, submit to your PD, then it get proecessed thru the state police. In Boston or the towns outside it, almost impossible. Similar with the other cities. With the trucks, DOT is always looking to bag guys. But, every time I go to the scrap yard some junky will pull in with a beat to piss 1/2 ton truck, dragging the bumper overloaded with a valid inspection sticker.


Yeah it never ends for a hard working individual


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## ClimberBusinessman (Sep 3, 2022)

The DOT, DMV/BMV, and driver's license requirements should just be abolished altogether. To not let people drive without jumping through hoops is simply tyranny. Maybe insurance companies could require their own road tests performed by a third-party if they found it correlated with fewer accidents.


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## mikewhite85 (Sep 3, 2022)

Here's the bucket truck. 5000 dollars later it looks great! Will soon apply company decals. Still waiting on the chipper truck.


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## tree MDS (Sep 3, 2022)

Man, that’s an awesome truck!! Especially for what you have invested!! Looks like you’ve really outdone yourself on that deal! 

She fly as nice as she looks?


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## mikewhite85 (Sep 3, 2022)

My bucket operator likes it! We're really grateful.


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## 661Joe (Sep 4, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> Here's the bucket truck. 5000 dollars later it looks great! Will soon apply company decals. Still waiting on the chipper truck.
> View attachment 1014779
> 
> View attachment 1014781


Is that a 75ft? (Looked again it’s a 75ft just looks short for some reason my teRex 75ft it’s upper boom is long as hell. Looks sharp congratulations


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## mikewhite85 (Oct 4, 2022)

All done with the chip truck now. Turned out nice. Lots of storage!


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## tree MDS (Oct 4, 2022)

Looks beautiful, Mike! Are you going to be able to tow a chipper with that overhang to the pintle hook?


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## mikewhite85 (Oct 5, 2022)

tree MDS said:


> Looks beautiful, Mike! Are you going to be able to tow a chipper with that overhang to the pintle hook?


Thanks, MDS. 

I haven't even hooked up a chipper yet, but I'll find out! I'm pretty sure the shoot of the chipper will be inside the truck. May need to make some adjustments!


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## tree MDS (Oct 5, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> Thanks, MDS.
> 
> I haven't even hooked up a chipper yet, but I'll find out! I'm pretty sure the shoot of the chipper will be inside the truck. May need to make some adjustments!



I was down at the bandit dealer a while back and they had a 19xpc with a bolt on addition to the existing tongue. I was gonna type up this big description, but it was a pita so I just searched for a photo. Not exactly the same as the one I saw, but you get the idea.


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## tree MDS (Oct 5, 2022)

You could always of course have your fab guy make one up a custom length for your application.


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## tree MDS (Oct 5, 2022)

This is a 14 foot body. You can see how if they just cut out for the toolbox it would’ve been just about right with the hitch. No big deal. I’m sure you’ll figure it out. Still a sweet truck! Just gonna need a little tweaking.


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## mikewhite85 (Oct 6, 2022)

Great idea with that tongue extension. I'll try to hook it up to a chipper today to see how it is and what adjustments should be made.

That tool box is gonna be the cat's meow. It's totally open so you can literally fit a couple crew members in there!


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## tree MDS (Oct 6, 2022)

Lol, I’m. Sure it’s nothing like the old aspy Mexican boxes. My god, I’m sure if creepy old truck tool boxes could tell tales, those ones could lay it down lol.


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