# Is this common?



## turnkey4099 (Jan 16, 2007)

On another forum a newby to chainsaws and backhoes asked how to remove a tree and stump. Tree about 12" dbh. He is getting advice from a member that the best and safest way is to dig around it with the backhoe breaking off roots and then use the backhoe arm to push the tree over. Note this is supposed to be his regular practice and he cuts nothing off the trees first.

Doesn't seem very safe to me but...

Harry K


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## bendtrees (Jan 16, 2007)

*pushing over trees*

This practice is extremely common around here, to the point where it is difficult to compete with excavators. That being said, a couple of our clients our veteran excavators who have really scared themselves in the past. 

I am by no means an expert, but 12" DBH does not sound unreasonable for this practice depending on the species, soils, trunk condition and height. 

If he has a thumb on the hoe, it would probably be safer to dump it leaving a high stump and then dig and pull.


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## Sprig (Jan 16, 2007)

Gets done quite a bit around here too on short small diam. trees, my only concern would be dead branches overhead falling on the operator, something most sensible peeps would be well aware of. I've watched people just pull them over too (chain and cable) which is probably what I'd do if I didn't like cutting things down so much


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 16, 2007)

Looks like I was a bit late to edit my post. That 12" tree is a reasonable size, I agree. He states he uses the same technique on big trees and has had the tops of two of them (dead) fall on his equipment and even got hit once with branches from one of the them. His justification seems to be:

It uses the tree to help pull the stump at the same time. That is true

It is much safer than a chainsaw. On small trees, I agree.

Harry K


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## stumpjumper83 (Jan 16, 2007)

In north central pa a logger will do it if the tree has a dead top. Look at the jd 350 - 550's with the forestry packages, the tops are all dented. Now they use dozers, but its actually easier with a big backhoe or a excavator.


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## maxburton (Jan 16, 2007)

NO WAY.


If you have been trained in felling, you can cut the tree down safely and with control. With a backhoe, all kinds of crazy things can happen, many of which you can't even see from the cab. Forget it! Pull the stump out when the tree is down.


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## livewire (Jan 16, 2007)

stumpjumper83 said:


> In north central pa a logger will do it if the tree has a dead top. Look at the jd 350 - 550's with the forestry packages, the tops are all dented. Now they use dozers, but its actually easier with a big backhoe or a excavator.




Ya backhoe for reach...

I had this done at my house when I had a buddy come dig up some stumps for me. He pushed over two trees for me then picked the root wad up so I could cut it off. He even loaded 'em up onto the burn pile.

I thought it was a pretty nice method.


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## polingspig (Jan 16, 2007)

*Experience?*

I was just wondering what experience the home owner has with Heavy Equipment. I was an Equipment Operator in the Air Force (823 RED HORSE) and ran equipment for 5 years after I got out. I have to tell ya that even the guys who were supposed to know what they were doing in the civilian sector where a little lacking when it came to safe practices. Any Equipment Rental place will let you get the machine without asking if you can use it. You can very easily kill or dismember yourself or others with that stuff.

I watched a kid roll a skid steer loader end over end (four complete rotations butt to bucket) down the side of a hill in the Caribbean. All because he forgot about proper load dumping procedures. He was covered in dirt and oil but otherwise OK after we pried his fingers free of the roll cage.

One of my supervisors in the civilian world was laid up for three weeks after being hit in the head with a swinging excavator bucket. The operator hit the joy stick with his knee trying to get out and talk to the supe. about the ditch.

The funniest though was old crotchety Mr Hammond. He drove a dump truck and thought all the operators were idiots. After ten minutes of him cussing me for the way I was loading his truck with logs (we were clearing a lot for a drug store to be built) I got out of the equipment and told him to load himself. He tried to load a stump. Swung it over the cab instead of from the back. Dropped it on the cab. Busted the windshield and dent the cab roof pretty good. He'd been working for the company about 15 years so they suspended him for the damage instead of firing him. I laughed for days.


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## Fumbler (Jan 16, 2007)

Some equipment operators in the forest service use that technique with the dozers when building fire lines.
They dig up around the tree with the blade angled then push it down.
Our dozers range from John Deere 550's to 750's.
Like stumpjumper said, these all have forestry packages.


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## soutz (Jan 16, 2007)

crazy.
do the job properly,this is a huge short cut that sooner or later is goin to turn bad.fell,then stumps.


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## woodchux (Jan 17, 2007)

A client of mine was telling me about a bulldozer mishap they had once. Dozer was pushing over an oak, i think it was about 24" dbh. Wide open lz in the back yard, anyway the tree starts to go over fine but some roots make it turn to the side and ended up crashing into the house doing major damage.
It pays to take an extra minute and put in a notch.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 17, 2007)

So I guess it isn't unusual at all. What really made my nether regions pucker was him advising a guy who had was new to backhoes and tree removal. Turns out that the guy _did_ do it successfully but the tree fell a bit off from where he wanted it. The guy never did mention any of the possible bad things that could happen until it was all over and then admitted he had had tree tops fall on him.

Harry K


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## Frank Boyer (Jan 17, 2007)

I knock down 16-18 inch diameter trees without a problem with my crawler loader/hoe. I push on them at about 10 feet high and push them over. I have a covered ROPS. I used to have a PC 150 Komatsu excavator and it would knock down trees up to 24 inch diameter without a problem. It is just part of running in the hills. On larger trees I make a face cut, and a back cut and then make sure of the drop by pushing very slowly with the tractor. A rubber tired hoe cannot match a crawler loader or an excavator for pushing down trees.


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## Bobs PSI (Jan 18, 2007)

If houses are close by I like to cut a tall tree in half or at least leave a 20+ foot stub. It helps tremendously digging stumps out with the John Deere 135 we have. If I'm out in the woods it really does not matter that much to me to dig up and push a whole tree over. Dig on three sides and use one side for a hinge.


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## clearance (Jan 18, 2007)

Frank Boyer said:


> I knock down 16-18 inch diameter trees without a problem with my crawler loader/hoe. I push on them at about 10 feet high and push them over. I have a covered ROPS. I used to have a PC 150 Komatsu excavator and it would knock down trees up to 24 inch diameter without a problem. It is just part of running in the hills. On larger trees I make a face cut, and a back cut and then make sure of the drop by pushing very slowly with the tractor. A rubber tired hoe cannot match a crawler loader or an excavator for pushing down trees.



This is good. As long as the machine is big enough, the operator is competent and the machine has ROPS (actually EROPS) which is covered, heavily gaurded ROPS. On an excavator, this is commonly called a "forestry package" That means EROPS and heavy guarding for the engine, etc. I have worked around big machines a few times (200 size excavators) they are the cats meow for treework. Just awesome, all the little trees the machine can do, the big stuff I put cuts in and he is my "big yellow wedge", on the ground, done. Then it gets picked up for me with the thumb and I limb and buck it, out of the mud and rocks.


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## clearance (Jan 18, 2007)

Frank Boyer said:


> I knock down 16-18 inch diameter trees without a problem with my crawler loader/hoe. I push on them at about 10 feet high and push them over. I have a covered ROPS. I used to have a PC 150 Komatsu excavator and it would knock down trees up to 24 inch diameter without a problem. It is just part of running in the hills. On larger trees I make a face cut, and a back cut and then make sure of the drop by pushing very slowly with the tractor. A rubber tired hoe cannot match a crawler loader or an excavator for pushing down trees.



This is good. As long as the machine is big enough, the operator is competent and the machine has ROPS (actually EROPS) which is covered, heavily gaurded ROPS. On an excavator, this is commonly called a "forestry package" That means EROPS and heavy guarding for the engine, etc. I have worked around big machines a few times (200 size excavators) they are the cats meow for treework. Just awesome, all the little trees the machine can do, the big stuff I put cuts in and he is my "big yellow wedge", on the ground, done. Then it gets picked up for me with the thumb and I limb and buck it, out of the mud and rocks.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 18, 2007)

Ah! I just recalled an accident involving my, my brother and a Ford 8N with bucket.

He needed to remove a Black Walnut. I cut it high (about 6ft), cleared around base down a few inches and tried cutting it off. Too much dirt included apparently and could only nibble around it before the bar would bind. Being cut almost all the way through he got a brainstorm to push with the bucket and break it off. Worked great, had it 'rocking' then the bucket slipped, rode right up the trunk and back down. There we were with the stem coming neatly up between the bucket and the (now) smashed tinwork in front of the radiator. Was to laugh!

Harry K


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## maxburton (Jan 18, 2007)

Let me preamble this by saying I have no experience operating heavy equipment for tree removal.

A quick search turned up average ROPS ratings of 20,000 pounds. This weight could easily be exceeded by the shock load of a tree trunk falling backwards onto a cab. It doesn't seem very safe to me.


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