# Building hydraulic tank is it goin to be big enough??



## bushwackr (Apr 29, 2011)

Hi all I am goin to make a tank for my splitter. I am using a 22gpm pump with 5x24 cylinder. Im I correct in thinking that 25 gallons of hydro oil is enough to keep it cool? I was planning on making the tank 20x18x18. If I did the math right it should give me a 28 gallon capacity. Lets say I use 25 gallons in it will I have enough room for expansion and enough oil to keep temps down. 

My original thought was to go 24x18x18 , that would give me a 33 gallon capacity and I could go 30 gallons of oil . 

I appreciate any info I can get.


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## indiansprings (Apr 29, 2011)

I think your going to have plenty of capacity to keep the oil cool. Some of the machinery I run with even higher capacity pumps (34 gal min) don't have that capacity. You'll have 225.00 or more in hydraulic oil in that baby. I bought 5 gallon yesterday, it was right at 40.00. I'm no hydro engineer, but I think you would have plenty of capacity with a 10 gal tank. I've got one splitter running a 5x24 and a 16gpm pump with a 5 gal tank and it does just fine and when it is getting used it is non-stop splitting between fill ups of fuel.


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## bushwackr (Apr 29, 2011)

that would be great if I could get away with a smaller tank say a 20 gallon


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## TreePointer (Apr 29, 2011)

*Overkill?*

Just for reference, my Huskee 35-ton splitter with 5" cylinder and 16 gpm pump has a reservoir with 31.6 qt. (~8 gallons) max capacity.

Note that the shape of the tank is a *long rectangle* which is just above the wheel axle line. Shapes that have a higher surface-to-volume ratio will dissipate heat more rapidly.


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## Streblerm (Apr 29, 2011)

Most splitters that I see have around half a gallon of hydraulic oil per GPM of pump of pump volume. I've always heard more like a 1:1 ratio, but I have been using a 35 ton husky for almost ten years doing 30-40 cords per year, sometimes 6-8 hrs at a time and the oil never gets over a palm measurement of around 120 degrees.

Speeco says that splitter is 6.5 gallon capacity.


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## jags (Apr 29, 2011)

Yep, 1/2 gallon oil per 1 GPM of pump is pretty common in the industry. I have a 16gpm pump and run about 10 gal of oil and it never gets warm enough to wilt lettuce.


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## Henry and Wanda (Apr 29, 2011)

Hello,
I think I would go with the 28 gallon tank and run 25 gallons of fluid in it. It's nice that the fluid doesn't get so hot on those 90 and above days when you are running that splitter hour after hour. If you do decide to go smaller, then a 16x16x20 would give you 22gallon of space and then you could run 20 gallons.


Henry and Wanda


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## kyle1! (Apr 29, 2011)

*Need parts?*

If you need some parts to make the reservior look at my ad under firewood classifieds. :msp_sneaky: plug I know. Can't believe on AS no one need splitter build parts.

Brian


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## CJ1 (Apr 29, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> Hi all I am goin to make a tank for my splitter. I am using a 22gpm pump with 5x24 cylinder. Im I correct in thinking that 25 gallons of hydro oil is enough to keep it cool? I was planning on making the tank 20x18x18. If I did the math right it should give me a 28 gallon capacity. Lets say I use 25 gallons in it will I have enough room for expansion and enough oil to keep temps down.
> 
> My original thought was to go 24x18x18 , that would give me a 33 gallon capacity and I could go 30 gallons of oil .
> 
> I appreciate any info I can get.


 
Your math is right. The reason the oil heats up is heat input. [ horse power] With out getting too technical. If you can dissapate enough heat you could use a 3 gallon res. Your cylinder displaces a little over 2 gallons of oil. If you increase capacity you increase run time. How long do you want to run the unit? I used a 20 gallon reservoir on my 22 gpm splitter and in never went above 140 deg f on a 80 degree day. Max is either 160 f or 100 degrees over ambient. I like to keep the temp below 160. Remember to keep your return BELOW the oil level [keeps oil from foaming] and either baffel it or place your suction on the opposite side of the tank. Google hydraulic oil reservoir design an it will give you some tips. Just a general rule of thumb 1 gallon tank size to 1 gallon gpm flow. Hope this helps!! CJ


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## jags (Apr 29, 2011)

CJ1 said:


> Just a general rule of thumb 1 gallon tank size to 1 gallon gpm flow. Hope this helps!! CJ



This is very true in the industrial world, but after a quick check of speeco and others, it seems log splitters generally follow the .5:1 ratio. Don't know why, just sayin'


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## bushwackr (Apr 29, 2011)

ok If you mean engine horse power im close need 12 have 14.5 . I plan it to run all day, the first weekend its alive, then I prob will split a few times a year when I get a couple loads piled up.


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## jags (Apr 29, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> ok If you mean engine horse power im close need 12 have 14.5 .


 
If this was in reference to my post I was referring to tank volume to pump volume. If not, just ignore me.:msp_tongue:


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## triptester (Apr 29, 2011)

Tank design will have the greatest effect on cooling. The greater the distance between inlet and outlet the better. The wider the tank gets it's ability to cool the oil deminishes.

A 12" wide , 18" tall, and 24" long tank would give a system capacity of about 20 gallons. Also thinner metal will disipate heat better than thick metal.


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## pa.hunter (Apr 29, 2011)

*make sure you put some baffles inside tank*

to slow flow down really not slow it down but, make it travel around couple plates and cool better than a straight shot make it like a maze, if i could write on here i would show ya i am sure you get the idea


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## sunfish (Apr 29, 2011)

5 gallons is plenty, but 10 would be very safe. 20 is way over kill.


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## bushwackr (Apr 30, 2011)

ok Im sure I know what size im goin to know , but why was I told at least 25 gallons when I got the pump, thats a lot of fluid??


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## TreePointer (Apr 30, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> ok Im sure I know what size im goin to know , but why was I told at least 25 gallons when I got the pump, thats a lot of fluid??


 
Maybe they meant at least 25 quarts (6.25 gal.).


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## pa.hunter (Apr 30, 2011)

*i have mine built with 8 gallon tanks with baffles*



bushwackr said:


> ok Im sure I know what size im goin to know , but why was I told at least 25 gallons when I got the pump, thats a lot of fluid??


 2 stage pump 3500 psi works fine have used it for 6 years


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## bushwackr (Apr 30, 2011)

so if I have 15 gallons I should have plenty then. has anyone used any oil coolers on there splitters. I just dont want to over heat it


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## bushwackr (Apr 30, 2011)

Is this what is meant by baffles in the tank


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## pa.hunter (May 1, 2011)

*yep*



bushwackr said:


> Is this what is meant by baffles in the tank


 it will cool better and direct flow a bit


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## Streblerm (May 1, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> so if I have 15 gallons I should have plenty then. has anyone used any oil coolers on there splitters. I just dont want to over heat it


 
I have considered adding a cooler on mine. Most of the oil coolers I've looked at are rated for 300psi and have a GPM rating as well. This seems like it would work fine in the return line. Somebody please feel free to tell me if this is a good idea or not.


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## triptester (May 1, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> Is this what is meant by baffles in the tank



The baffles look good . You show the return at the bottom of the tank, it should enter the top of the tank and extend with a drop tube to near the bottom. This will allow for filter change with minimal loss of fluid. An access cover would be nice for internal inspection and cleaning.


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## bushwackr (May 1, 2011)

pa.hunter If I put that many baffles it shouldnt slow the fluid enought to cause problems. Does a person drill holes in the walls or let fluid bounce around corners. 

I didnt realise that there is 300 psi on the return side. I was thinking a little foreign car radiatar/electric fan as my oil cooler.  That would be a mistake with the whopping 16lb cap on them. Well maybe the core would hold the pressure im not sure. Anyone use a radiator as a cooler , or where does a person get a decent one??


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## bushwackr (May 1, 2011)

triptester when you say drop tube , you mean just a steel tube a couple inches of the bottom. I could weld a pipe on the wall at a 45 and run it to the bottom. Oh wow ya I never thought about when its time to change filters, I would have had a big mess

I appreciate all the info that is being given to me


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## triptester (May 1, 2011)

Here is a pic of a tank I'm building to use with a 22 gpm 2-stage pump. It is 12"x 12"x 24" with a single baffle accross the middle 6" high with the bottom corners clipped 3/4" to allow for draining. There is a drain valve below the suction outlet. The breather cap is installed in a inspection cover. The return line has a drop tube that extendes to within a inch of the bottom and it is cut on a angle.


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## bushwackr (May 1, 2011)

nice work


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## pa.hunter (May 1, 2011)

*i have 3 and it works fine*



bushwackr said:


> pa.hunter If I put that many baffles it shouldnt slow the fluid enought to cause problems. Does a person drill holes in the walls or let fluid bounce around corners.
> 
> I didnt realise that there is 300 psi on the return side. I was thinking a little foreign car radiatar/electric fan as my oil cooler.  That would be a mistake with the whopping 16lb cap on them. Well maybe the core would hold the pressure im not sure. Anyone use a radiator as a cooler , or where does a person get a decent one??


 you will have plenty of flow all baffles are for is to direct flow so it cools better you can drill all you want too wont hurt a thing


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## Phil_Marino (May 1, 2011)

triptester said:


> Tank design will have the greatest effect on cooling. The greater the distance between inlet and outlet the better. The wider the tank gets it's ability to cool the oil deminishes.
> 
> A 12" wide , 18" tall, and 24" long tank would give a system capacity of about 20 gallons. Also thinner metal will disipate heat better than thick metal.



Nope. The steel wall ( regardless of the thickness) conducts heat so much better than the air around it, that the wall thickness will make no difference at all.


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## triptester (May 1, 2011)

Yes metal does conduct heat better than air. It also retains heat better than air. A thin piece of metal will cool quicker than a thick piece.


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## Whitespider (May 1, 2011)

Actually, _*Phil_Marino*_ is correct, the thickness of the steel won't matter.

Heat is dissipated from the surface of the steel, so yes, a thicker piece takes longer to cool, but...
The steel doesn't "cool" until the heat source is removed; if you have two 24x24 pieces of steel, one twice as thick as the other, heat both to 1000 degrees and remove the heat source... The thicker piece takes twice(?) as long to cool, but the _dissipation *rate*_ is the same.

Soooo..... what this means is that if you heat one side of the steel, like from inside of a hydraulic tank, once the steel comes up to temperature the *outside surface* will _*dissipate*_ heat at the same rate regardless of thickness. The oil will run at the same identical temperature no matter the thickness of the steel. Only if steel worked as an insulator would it cause the oil to run warmer... steel is a lousy insulator.


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## Whitespider (May 1, 2011)

Sorry, I got called away from the keyboard for a few minutes.

As to the shape of the tank, it makes very little difference in cooling. The only real way to increase cooling would be to increase surface area; a 20 gallon tank has the same surface area regardless of shape... simple geometry - LxWxD=V. Possibly reducing the floor area and increasing the side area would increase cooling a very tiny bit... it wouldn't be much and probably none if there was a bit of air movement.

Also, installing internal baffles will not aid in cooling (although there may be other benefits); internal baffles do not increase the steel-to-air surface area, which is where the heat is dissipated.

If you want to increase cooling efficiency of your hydraulic tank you must increase steel-to-air area, which means a larger tank, which also increases the time that the oil is exposed to cooling. Another option is to take a lesson from your chain saw engine... the cylinder & head have fins on them, correct? Those fins increase metal-to-air surface area, thereby increasing cooling efficiency. Welding some fins to the outside of your tank would accomplish the same thing.


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## bushwackr (May 1, 2011)

some fins would be easy enough to weld on. I will prob do that


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## daddyoneleg (May 2, 2011)

*More oil should be better*

I think a big tank may be your awnser.A big tank so you don't need fins,coolers ect, keep it simple and only get complicated if you have to.I am just building a big log splitter with and trying a 12 way wedge/grate. 13hp/22gpm-2stage /7''cyl/25gal tank. I have access to a lot of 30-38'' flared butts and would like to multi split in one pass....Any input appriciated Thx.:bang:


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## atvguns (May 2, 2011)

I may not have a clue on this subject but it seems to me that one
way to increase surface area is to put vertical pipes in the tank with the open end's sticking out flush with the tank the tank would have to be enlarged to make up for the reduced volume but it would let air circulate up through the pipes you could use 2 or 3 large diameter pipes or you could use serveral smaller pipes 

it is the same theory as the fastest way to cool a gun barrel is to stand it up with the bolt open


After doing some more thinking the pipes could also act as baffles inside the tank


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## jags (May 2, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> some fins would be easy enough to weld on. I will prob do that



Bushwackr - no disrespect intended, but I think you are over engineering a very simple part. If you run a steel hydro tank that will hold 50% of your pump capacity plus 20% for head room, you will not have a problem with your oil unless you are non stop splitting in 110F weather. Just an opinion from a dude that has built a couple. Don't make the simple things hard(er).


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## bushwackr (May 2, 2011)

None taken Jags I'm just trying to get this all figured out. I have been told I would be safe at both ends of the board. Hydraulics is one thing that I am not very talented with. So all I need is a tank with a hold around 14-15 gallons. that will cover a 22 pump? . 

What will fit in my slot on the trailer is a 28x12x12 tank. It should hold 15 gallons , with about 2 3/4 gal of air space. As for the baffles I was goin to do like triptester did ,but I was going to put 2, 
6" high by 12"wide baffles that have corners cut off so it will drain. I was planning them 9" apart so there is one on return side and one on the suction side. Maybe I dont need 2 not sure


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## jags (May 2, 2011)

Sounds to me like your plan is a winner.


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## CJ1 (May 2, 2011)

jags said:


> This is very true in the industrial world, but after a quick check of speeco and others, it seems log splitters generally follow the .5:1 ratio. Don't know why, just sayin'


 
Mostly due to cost, you can run a hydraulic system at 200 degrees just don't count on oil seals and oil to last very long. most splitters will only run a couple of hours at a time, so no real heat issue. But if you run it all day it will saturate after a few hours then start doing damage. Like I said before 15 gallons of useable oil runs at about 140 degrees on a 70 deg day after 6 hours of splitting with a square oil tank. This was using the same pump you are considering. So figure 160 degrees on a 90 degree day. CJ


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## jags (May 2, 2011)

CJ1 said:


> So figure 160 degrees on a 90 degree day. CJ



You can figure on me not splitting firewood on a 90 degree day.


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## CJ1 (May 2, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> None taken Jags I'm just trying to get this all figured out. I have been told I would be safe at both ends of the board. Hydraulics is one thing that I am not very talented with. So all I need is a tank with a hold around 14-15 gallons. that will cover a 22 pump? .
> 
> What will fit in my slot on the trailer is a 28x12x12 tank. It should hold 15 gallons , with about 2 3/4 gal of air space. As for the baffles I was goin to do like triptester did ,but I was going to put 2,
> 6" high by 12"wide baffles that have corners cut off so it will drain. I was planning them 9" apart so there is one on return side and one on the suction side. Maybe I dont need 2 not sure


 
That sounds good, 1 baffel would be enough and don't put your pick up at the very bottom, leave about 1" or so. but put a drain at the very bottom to drain water. I have checked mine and found a cup or so at the start of the year. CJ


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## CJ1 (May 2, 2011)

jags said:


> You can figure on me not splitting firewood on a 90 degree day.


 
I agree 110%


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## CJ1 (May 2, 2011)

daddyoneleg said:


> I think a big tank may be your awnser.A big tank so you don't need fins,coolers ect, keep it simple and only get complicated if you have to.I am just building a big log splitter with and trying a 12 way wedge/grate. 13hp/22gpm-2stage /7''cyl/25gal tank. I have access to a lot of 30-38'' flared butts and would like to multi split in one pass....Any input appriciated Thx.:bang:


 
That cylinder will develope 114000 lbs of force and require 11 seconds to stroke out 24". What will it split, depends on the effectiveness of your wedges. CJ


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## bushwackr (May 2, 2011)

CJ1 said:


> That cylinder will develope 114000 lbs of force and require 11 seconds to stroke out 24". What will it split, depends on the effectiveness of your wedges. CJ


 

How do you figure out those numbers? Could you give mine a shot? 14.5hp/22gpm 2 stage/5x24 cylinder/15gal tank


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## triptester (May 2, 2011)

Baum Hydraulics has a online calculator.

Calculator#1 for push and pull

Calculator#3 for cycle times

Baum Hydraulics Corp :: Spec Calculator


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## bushwackr (May 2, 2011)

oh sweet :msp_razz:


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## CJ1 (May 3, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> How do you figure out those numbers? Could you give mine a shot? 14.5hp/22gpm 2 stage/5x24 cylinder/15gal tank


 
Force [psi] x area of cylinder = pounds. Roughly 60000. Speed of cylinder is area being filled, cubic inches yours is 460 = or - a little so 24" of stroke in 5.5 seconds with 22 gpm pump. It will retract a little faster because of the rod displacement. I cheat and don't do the math and use a hydraulic slide rule [I do it alot] but just like was stated the formula is on the net or use the availible site with input ##'s to figure it out for you. CJ


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## Phil_Marino (May 3, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> Sorry, I got called away from the keyboard for a few minutes.
> 
> As to the shape of the tank, it makes very little difference in cooling. The only real way to increase cooling would be to increase surface area; a 20 gallon tank has the same surface area regardless of shape... simple geometry - LxWxD=V.



Nope - changing the shape of the tank ( while keeping the volume the same) does change the surface area. 

I'm glad that you know the formula for volume, but that equation does not show that the surface area is constant. Here's an example : make a 10 gallon tank out of a 100 foot length of pipe, and it will have a whole lot more surface area than a cube of the same volume. Duh.


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## bushwackr (May 3, 2011)

now that I have the tank figured out. I am to my filter, Im putting it on the return to the tank. My questions, How much if any pressure will be on the dump hose? 
Will I have the same ammount of fluid returning to the tank as the pump is pushing. My pump is 22 will it 22 be returning on the backstroke. My filter does 12-16gpm, but it has 1" holes in the filter head , I would sure think its big enough. 
last one I promise:msp_biggrin:


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## jags (May 3, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> My filter does 12-16gpm, but it has 1" holes in the filter head , I would sure think its big enough.
> last one I promise:msp_biggrin:


 
Ya need a bigger filter. The filter has to meet or EXCEED the gpm of the pump or you will be running too much head pressure for the safe operation (filter or hose go boom).


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## TreePointer (May 3, 2011)

On the store bought splitters I've seen, the return lines are rated for only 300 psi max. I think the actual pressures produced in the return line are under 30 psi.


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## bushwackr (May 3, 2011)

ok thank you , I will have to get a bigger filter, as with the pressure I just wanted to make sure wasnt goin to burst a filter.


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## atvguns (May 3, 2011)

atvguns said:


> I may not have a clue on this subject but it seems to me that one
> way to increase surface area is to put vertical pipes in the tank with the open end's sticking out flush with the tank the tank would have to be enlarged to make up for the reduced volume but it would let air circulate up through the pipes you could use 2 or 3 large diameter pipes or you could use serveral smaller pipes
> 
> it is the same theory as the fastest way to cool a gun barrel is to stand it up with the bolt open
> ...



So did this not make any sense or just simply won't work


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## bushwackr (May 3, 2011)

i think it would work good, the heat would travel out the open ends of the pipes. Ive seen transmission pans the same way


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## daddyoneleg (May 4, 2011)

CJ1 said:


> That cylinder will develope 114000 lbs of force and require 11 seconds to stroke out 24". What will it split, depends on the effectiveness of your wedges. CJ


 
I just finished the multi-grate this weekend,what a long project.You are correct on the specs.All the knives are razor sharp......The overall dia. came out at 38''. If the beam deflects I may put in a top connector??


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## daddyoneleg (May 4, 2011)

atvguns said:


> So did this not make any sense or just simply won't work


 
Every pipe you put in subtracts from the volume of the tank.I wouldn't know which is better or worse,less oil or more surface area with the pipes in ?


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## Whitespider (May 4, 2011)

Phil_Marino said:


> Nope - changing the shape of the tank ( while keeping the volume the same) does change the surface area.
> 
> I'm glad that you know the formula for volume, but that equation does not show that the surface area is constant...


 
Oh man, evidently my brain had refuse to shift gears the other day... the formula for volume and surface area are totally different. You are correct; the surface area could easily be doubled by changing from a cube shape tank to a long, tall, thin tank. Which, of course, would be much simpler than welding on fins, or installing pipes.

My apologies to the OP... My apologies to y'all...

There is no excuse for bad information...


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## jags (May 4, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> There is no excuse for bad information...



Your check for this weeks internet support is being withheld.:biggrinbounce2:

On the pipes in the tank - fugitaboutit. Over engineering a simple part. Build the tank with baffles that you talked about earlier and lets move on to the rest of the splitter. We wanna see PICS.


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## CJ1 (May 4, 2011)

Whitespider said:


> Oh man, evidently my brain had refuse to shift gears the other day... the formula for volume and surface area are totally different. You are correct; the surface area could easily be doubled by changing from a cube shape tank to a long, tall, thin tank. Which, of course, would be much simpler than welding on fins, or installing pipes.
> 
> My apologies to the OP... My apologies to y'all...
> 
> There is no excuse for bad information...


 
You don't need to apologize, thats how we learn. We all have brain farts once in a while. CJ


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## CJ1 (May 4, 2011)

bushwackr said:


> now that I have the tank figured out. I am to my filter, Im putting it on the return to the tank. My questions, How much if any pressure will be on the dump hose?
> Will I have the same ammount of fluid returning to the tank as the pump is pushing. My pump is 22 will it 22 be returning on the backstroke. My filter does 12-16gpm, but it has 1" holes in the filter head , I would sure think its big enough.
> last one I promise:msp_biggrin:


 
You need to remember when you stroke a cylinder back you force the volume of the cylinder back to tank, BUT because of the rod dia you are actually forcing more than 22GPM back through your return line. More like 28 or so guessing. I am working on a power unit now that delivers 280 GPM to my cylinders but my return flow exceeds my D10 valves ratings. So I have to use 2 valves at $3000 a piece. That hurts the pocketbook!! Your return filter has a 25psi bypass in it so you don't blow the filter on a cold day but it still needs to be sized correctly to filter all the oil and not put to much back pressure on your control valve. Get a head and filter that will handle 30GPM. CJ


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## CJ1 (May 4, 2011)

daddyoneleg said:


> I just finished the multi-grate this weekend,what a long project.You are correct on the specs.All the knives are razor sharp......The overall dia. came out at 38''. If the beam deflects I may put in a top connector??


 
I'd like to see pics of that!! Working on a processor for a friend and always can use good ideas. CJ


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## daddyoneleg (May 4, 2011)

CJ1 said:


> I'd like to see pics of that!! Working on a processor for a friend and always can use good ideas. CJ


 
Sure,I will work on the pics for ya.I think I am about 1/2 done......The welder at my dads will only burn 7018 1/8 ,so stacking stringer beads is a tad painfull !! :bang: How far along is your processer ? What are the meaty specs?


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## CJ1 (May 4, 2011)

daddyoneleg said:


> Sure,I will work on the pics for ya.I think I am about 1/2 done......The welder at my dads will only burn 7018 1/8 ,so stacking stringer beads is a tad painfull !! :bang: How far along is your processer ? What are the meaty specs?


 
Still on paper!! We have a few parts, 80-100hp diesel, I have enough pump parts to build a multi circuit pump P75 series at 3000psi. many different displacements.[left overs from power swivels on the rigs] I want the splitter cycle time at 4 seconds and the processor bar as fast as possible. Looks like a piston motor for the bar but just getting started. Will design a stop that lowers when the cut arm raises and raises when the arm locks down, hopefully eliminating saw bind. Just in the planning stages. I see how some of the faster processors work and with a little horsepower extra I think we can build a fast unit. CJ


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## daddyoneleg (May 5, 2011)

CJ1 said:


> Still on paper!! We have a few parts, 80-100hp diesel, I have enough pump parts to build a multi circuit pump P75 series at 3000psi. many different displacements.[left overs from power swivels on the rigs] I want the splitter cycle time at 4 seconds and the processor bar as fast as possible. Looks like a piston motor for the bar but just getting started. Will design a stop that lowers when the cut arm raises and raises when the arm locks down, hopefully eliminating saw bind. Just in the planning stages. I see how some of the faster processors work and with a little horsepower extra I think we can build a fast unit. CJ


 
Sounds really intresting.Best to start with some good drawings. I have put some pictures on my home,in an album.I am new here ,I hope they work.The cyl we are using was used on a stationary picker off a sawmill log deck.It would lift 30'' dia logs 40ft long.My dad,in the pics, is a heavy duty mechanic and he says the head on the cyl. is CAT.We are putting a log lift on the side to help ease the pain.


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