# Have you ever refused a job because you think its too dangerous?!



## TonyX3M (Jul 17, 2010)

I refused to climb two trees this week- one was a split (almoust to the ground) two trunk tree [dont know the exact name in english (in latin it is:Tilia cordata)] - it was about 75 feet high with two trunks - one was leaning abot 10 degrees right and enother about 40 degrees to the left with hughe cavity in middle and cracks all the way to the ground in between. 
Stump diameter was about 4 feet and hollow (full of dirt - cost us a chain)- and as we did find out- the upright part was hollow too; up to about 20 feet.
Anyway - I refused to climb that tree (I forgot to mention it was a graveyard- so we could not drop anything big) and to rope huge pices off of a leaning cracked tree just scared the hell out of me!
Am I paranoid or would you guys do that job no questions asked?
The oher one was easy - it was lighting struck to splinters, but still up 60 '
And BTW - I dont like working in skimpy lift- any kind of movement up in the air scares me...


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## deevo (Jul 17, 2010)

TonyX3M said:


> I refused to climb two trees this week- one was a split (almoust to the ground) two trunk tree [dont know the exact name in english (in latin it is:Tilia cordata)] - it was about 75 feet high with two trunks - one was leaning abot 10 degrees right and enother about 40 degrees to the left with hughe cavity in middle and cracks all the way to the ground in between.
> Stump diameter was about 4 feet and hollow (full of dirt - cost us a chain)- and as we did find out- the upright part was hollow too; up to about 20 feet.
> Anyway - I refused to climb that tree (I forgot to mention it was a graveyard- so we could not drop anything big) and to rope huge pices off of a leaning cracked tree just scared the hell out of me!
> Am I paranoid or would you guys do that job no questions asked?
> ...



1 method would be use a crane big enough or get a high enough lift=problem solved. Either way is has to come down and that would be the safest approach.  Are you afraid of heights by the comment you made? Hire someone that's not afraid to be up in the air! I really never refuse anything, just think outside the box and use other tools necessary like I mentioned. If they won't pay for it then too bad for them! I've refused to climb a lot of trees, you only live once, and you have to know by experience what to climb and what not to climb. By the sounds of it you did a good size up of the trees. Got any pics?


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## arborman3 (Jul 17, 2010)

*No way.*

The tree sounds too unsound to safely climb, never mind trying to rope it out. If it were my job I would have a crane do it, if you could get a crane to it. I once had a job taking down a hollow, rotted sugar maple in a historical cemetery We couldn't get a crane or bucket truck to the tree so we moved some headstones and dropped it. Moving the stones added to the cost of the job but it was the safest solution. Whoever sold the job should have assessed the condition of the tree and planned an alternative method of removal other than by climbing. Always inspect a tree before climbing. Never be afraid to refuse to climb a tree you feel to be unsafe. There are too many dead climbers who climbed the wrong trees.


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## deevo (Jul 17, 2010)

arborman3 said:


> The tree sounds too unsound to safely climb, never mind trying to rope it out. If it were my job I would have a crane do it, if you could get a crane to it. I once had a job taking down a hollow, rotted sugar maple in a historical cemetery We couldn't get a crane or bucket truck to the tree so we moved some headstones and dropped it. Moving the stones added to the cost of the job but it was the safest solution. Whoever sold the job should have assessed the condition of the tree and planned an alternative method of removal other than by climbing. Always inspect a tree before climbing. Never be afraid to refuse to climb a tree you feel to be unsafe. There are too many dead climbers who climbed the wrong trees.



Well said! It's always good to point out dangerous conditions of the trees to customers and explain it can only be done the way your planning and our safety is #1 priority. Like you said if possible move whatever you can in the DZ. At the end of the day we all want to go home to our families!:agree2:


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## arborman3 (Jul 17, 2010)

You're right Deevo, safety is #1, everything else is secondary.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 17, 2010)

Sometimes you have to look at job and say that it is not something that you do. I used to do nasty trees, but as I got older I came to th conclusion that the risk:reward was not worth it.

People put off the crappy trees till they are falling apart, then want to find a low bidder to do the removal. Then some poor schmuk climber has to risk life and limb because the property owner is so cheap. You have on little thing go wrong and poperty damage takes all the profit from the job. Forign objects dull the big saw so that the butt cut takes thre times as long.

If I bid a big nasty tree I will put a big number on and explain how it will be don and why it will cost a lot. I do not put much time and effort in them because that poor schmuck usually gets stuck.

If I am brought in to climb somthing that is way under bid for the risk, or I think that the risk is being shifted to me to save someone else some dough, then I walk away. I do it rarely enough that it does not P/O my clients, on occasion they thank me for getting them out of a stupid stuation.

Sometimes you have to take a big tree down in little pieces over a long period of time.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 17, 2010)

Never turned one down, but bid on some that I would like to turn down. Instead, I bid it to do it safely.
Jeff


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## arborman3 (Jul 17, 2010)

We never turned one down either. Always figured out how to get it done with ropes or equipment. I climbed for over 25 years, stopped when I hit 52. I took down many weak trees when I was young not realizing how dangerous the were until I saw a friend of mine top a rotted red maple than come out of the tree, to drop the trunk, and as he was rolling his rope the trunk fell on its own. The tree was rotted below ground too, and the shock of topping it must have compromised the last sound roots.


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## fishercat (Jul 17, 2010)

*never refused but....................*

I have gotten down from a tree and changed the price and equipment requirements.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 17, 2010)

fishercat said:


> I have gotten down from a tree and changed the price and equipment requirements.



LOL!- isn't that another thread. Ha.
Jeff


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## teamtree (Jul 17, 2010)

Never turned one down but may have priced myself out of a few.....

My thought process if it is dangerous....I am going to get paid to take my time to do it right


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## arborman3 (Jul 17, 2010)

The hairy ones always cost more to take down. I tell people the longer they wait, the more it will cost and I explain to them why; using the tree's weaknesses as as visual aid. I have had many people say to me, after I recommended taking down a hazardous tree, " I'll keep my eye on it". I always ask them what they mean; do they mean to keep an eye on it until it falls on their house, or just until it gets so weak that a fart could blow it over.


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## komatsuvarna (Jul 17, 2010)

teamtree said:


> Never turned one down but may have priced myself out of a few.....



+1. A harder job calls for a heavier wallet. If someone else wants to do it for free, go for it.


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## Groundman One (Jul 17, 2010)

Only walked away from one. A big maple, broken fifteen-feet up, not much meat keeping it together, right next to the house, leaning on two much smaller trees bent way over with the weight. A nice shed was right underneath the tree, along with the power lines going from the pole to the house, and the high-tension lines at the road were about fifteen-feet from the tree and _below_ it's height. Meaning it could just roll right onto them if it wanted to. It was a bomb waiting to go off.

We looked at that thing from every angle and it was just too freaky. That was six-or seven years ago and I think we would still walk away from it today. I can't see how it could be done without removing the electrical lines and possibly the street lines as well and bringing in a crane. Too much of a headache.


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## capetrees (Jul 17, 2010)

Walked away from one this past spring, first time. Guy wanted the limb growing out over his cottage removed. I get there and the "limb" is 16" diameter branch, 20'+ long, growing horizontal from the tree and about 6' above the cottage. Roof not strong enough to hold a ladder and no way to bring in equipment (crane, bucket). Real gnarly roping event if it ever got done.

Only other work I walk away from is if the tree/branches are above the bare high power lines. I DO NOT LIKE ELECTRICITY and will not mess with it.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 17, 2010)

Maybe I don't get it. I would not walk-a-way, You bid it to do it your way, right?
Jeff


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## tree md (Jul 17, 2010)

teamtree said:


> Never turned one down but may have priced myself out of a few.....
> 
> My thought process if it is dangerous....I am going to get paid to take my time to do it right



Yep, same here.

I have gone to look at many and told myself that I want no part of this tree. That is when I shoot them an astronomical number and hope they don't call me. But believe me, several of them have called me back and I had to figure out a way to do them. When I see one that is rotten to the core and no access I'm like "well, I'll do it for this amount of money and your first born child" then walk away thinking to myself that if they do call I will figure something out.

I agree with JPS too. I hate the cheapskates who let their trees deteriorate to the point that it is life threatening to a climber. I am always sure to figure in the idiot tax in addition to the astronomical price for those folks.

I have come down out of trees before and figured out another way when I find an unforeseen defect or my spurs start burying up to the hilt. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 17, 2010)

tree md said:


> Yep, same here.
> 
> I agree with JPS too. I hate the cheapskates who let their trees deteriorate to the point that it is life threatening to a climber.
> 
> ...


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## tree md (Jul 17, 2010)

Oh I never refuse a tree. I am saying that I bid them sky high when it's a really bad one. If they want to pay my asking price then I'll get it on the ground.


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 17, 2010)

some times its better to walkaway


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## TreeClimber57 (Jul 17, 2010)

teamtree said:


> Never turned one down but may have priced myself out of a few.....
> 
> My thought process if it is dangerous....I am going to get paid to take my time to do it right



Frankly I am the same. Never turned one down, but have lost jobs on some dangerous ones to lower bid. One about 3 years ago I think my bid was twice a high as the one they took. Frankly I really did not care, did not really need nor want the job, but if they wanted to pay to do it my way then I would have done it.


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## sgreanbeans (Jul 18, 2010)

I have never walked away, I have however, wished I had on some! I often am the guy the others refer when its a "big nasty"

I did have one years ago that I called J.P.S. in on, He and Brian K came down, HUGE, HUGE Cotton Wood, We gave the guy a price of $8000.00, guy didnt have it. House the tree covered caught on fire, tree was dead, so it caught fire as well, I was in San Diego when this happened, wish I could have seen it. I guess it looked like something out of a movie, large 150' tree engulfed in flames, top of tree burnt completely, leaving a 40' trunk that they demo guys knocked over with a excavator!


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## treemandan (Jul 18, 2010)

tomtrees58 said:


> some times its better to walkaway



sometimes its better to run?


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## treemandan (Jul 18, 2010)

Don't mess around. If you are sent by the bawss to hog out a tree that scares ya and you think you can't do it with what you have that's fine. If someone does the tree and says " see?" that's fine too. 
Sure you have to go deep in this tree work bull#### but 6 foot deep is to deep.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 18, 2010)

treemandan said:


> sometimes its better to run?



Sometimes, you need to know how to bid.
Jeff- yeah I know I am getting crap for that one.
Jeff


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## treemandan (Jul 18, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> I have never walked away, I have however, wished I had on some! I often am the guy the others refer when its a "big nasty"
> 
> I did have one years ago that I called J.P.S. in on, He and Brian K came down, HUGE, HUGE Cotton Wood, We gave the guy a price of $8000.00, guy didnt have it. House the tree covered caught on fire, tree was dead, so it caught fire as well, I was in San Diego when this happened, wish I could have seen it. I guess it looked like something out of a movie, large 150' tree engulfed in flames, top of tree burnt completely, leaving a 40' trunk that they demo guys knocked over with a excavator!



Maybe it was struck by lightening?


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 18, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Don't mess around. If you are sent by the bawss to hog out a tree that scares ya and you think you can't do it with what you have that's fine. If someone does the tree and says " see?" that's fine too.
> Sure you have to go deep in this tree work bull#### but 6 foot deep is to deep.



Sorry, I am still trying to fiqure out this post. Love to see that quote 'animated'!.
Jeff


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## treemandan (Jul 18, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Sometimes, you need to know how to bid.
> Jeff- yeah I know I am getting crap for that one.
> Jeff



Don't worry about me, I am The Dan, I know EVERYTHING!!!


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## treemandan (Jul 18, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Sorry, I am still trying to fiqure out this post. Love to see that quote 'animated'!.
> Jeff



Instead of thinking that I wrote some highly intelluctual #### think more on a lower level and see if that helps.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 18, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Instead of thinking that I wrote some highly intelluctual #### think more on a lower level and see if that helps.



For you, I always think on a lower level! 
Jeff


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## isaaccarlson (Jul 18, 2010)

I have had people ask me to trim a bad tree that needs to be taken down. I tell them I am not going to touch it unless it is coming down. Then I start for the car/truck. They usually catch me before I get in. Never refused one though.


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## newsawtooth (Jul 18, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> So bid it that way, dont walk away. You either do it or not. Jeff



You've been like an arboricultural Yoda lately, Jeffers. Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you.

There are trees I won't and haven't removed. Why should I? They scare me. At some point, explosives are a better option.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 18, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> You've been like an arboricultural Yoda lately, Jeffers. Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you.
> 
> There are trees I won't and haven't removed. Why should I? They scare me. At some point, explosives are a better option.



"Luke, I am your father!"
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Jul 18, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> You've been like an arboricultural Yoda lately, Jeffers.



Ha. Jeffers. I bet that name sticks. It already has as far as I am concerned.


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Jul 19, 2010)

Had one call out that when I got there I had to laugh and walk away. It was a 75+ cottonwood about 71/2ft across at the base with a crack nearly all the way through 10ft up. It gets better. Tree was dead, leaned severely over the house and shed, and icing on it all the limbs were gone on the side away from the house. No clear place to drop it and its over the lines to the house and shop. Suicide to climb. Only way to clear it was a crane. The tree was too weak to rope as heavy as those limbs would be.


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## TonyX3M (Jul 19, 2010)

*Well I got a ton of great advice*

I've been telling to my boss all the time that he should bid high on trees like that - that way if we need to bring in some heavy/costly equipment we have a little bit of playroom. What really burns my rear is that every Tom, #### and Harry with a 60' lift is a tree care specialist- we have in this city(Tallinn, Estonia) hundreds of trees with no tops and limbs- looks like a darn telephone poles! Who the hell takes this kind of jobs?! And of course city officials are politicians who don't care about anything!
And to question about me being scared of heights- yes I am!- But I feel better up in the tree then I am in somehow weirdly mowing lift 60' up (according to my co-worker in the same basket- he asked me: you was ten feet higher in that coupla' hours ago on a tree and you were fine- what are you worried about now?!) I just can't stand when I'm not in control
Anyway; Thank you guys- you are a lot of support!


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## TonyX3M (Jul 19, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> For you, I always think on a lower level!
> Jeff



I just got on level 18 in tetris- recon I have too mutch time to vaste 
(just kiddin- love to see ya going back and forth like that!)


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## tree MDS (Jul 19, 2010)

TonyX3M said:


> I've been telling to my boss all the time that he should bid high on trees like that - that way if we need to bring in some heavy/costly equipment we have a little bit of playroom. What really burns my rear is that every Tom, #### and Harry with a 60' lift is a tree care specialist- we have in this city(Tallinn, Estonia) hundreds of trees with no tops and limbs- looks like a darn telephone poles! Who the hell takes this kind of jobs?! And of course city officials are politicians who don't care about anything!
> And to question about me being scared of heights- yes I am!- But I feel better up in the tree then I am in somehow weirdly mowing lift 60' up (according to my co-worker in the same basket- he asked me: you was ten feet higher in that coupla' hours ago on a tree and you were fine- what are you worried about now?!) I just can't stand when I'm not in control
> Anyway; Thank you guys- you are a lot of support!



Bucket is just like your rope, you have to learn to trust it.. as long as its up to snuff that is.

That said, I have my moments where I'd rather be climbing too.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 20, 2010)

I've turned down ten, or so. PI up and heavily around a tree will make me walk. Heavy, rotten, dead leaners over a house with no lift access, ditto.


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## treesquirrel (Jul 21, 2010)

Smart decision my friend. You might have become a permanent resident of the graveyard if you climbed it.

I have refused to climb many trees during my career. Most of them were dead and too far gone to climb. I refer them to a colleague who has a bucket truck and a boom truck.

As a matter of fact I just turned down a nasty dead oak 2 weeks ago. it had a ant colony in the base that had eaten almost 1/3 of the thing out. leaned towards a home, nowhere to drop whole. I sent my buddy over to quote it.


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## Rftreeman (Jul 21, 2010)

I got a man that will climb anything and I mean anything, I myself have turned down one tree that had no mechanical (crane, bucket) access and was hanging over a house and been dead for 3 years..other than that nope..


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## oldirty (Jul 21, 2010)

i drove down to new haven a couple summers ago. it was going to be a solid little chunk of change i was thinking for what looked like an 8 outta 10 on the treetarded scale.

blah blah blah later

i am looking up at a bunch of work with one guy (met this dude for the first time the night before when i drove in) on the ground with no chipper or truck. a solid amount of tree from each tree over the uncoated wires and traveled road.... good sized trees for sure.

ummm. no. 

i called the dude who more or less brought me up into the climbing game when i first saddled up and painted the picture for him. you know, a mentor/friend if you will. after laughing both at me and the situation he said "walk". mentally i already had. 


it wasn't the danger factor it was more like the cluster#### the situation was going to be. 

lol.

long ride for nothing. oh well.


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 21, 2010)

oldirty said:


> i drove down to new haven a couple summers ago. it was going to be a solid little chunk of change i was thinking for what looked like an 8 outta 10 on the treetarded scale.
> 
> blah blah blah later
> 
> ...



I remember that thread. What was that cat's name? Melvin, Martin, or something. Some big shot landscrapin wannabe tree guy. lol That thread was a good laugh though. 

I walked from one a few years back, old, dead cherry sandwiched between two fences. Rotten as hell, everything needed to be rigged. I was young and not good at thinking outside the box at that point. If I was approached with the job now I'd just figure in the $225 lift rental for the day and smack it down easy peasy. Or just taken the fences down and bombs away. Many options I wasn't considering back in the day.


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## fishercat (Jul 21, 2010)

*sounds familiar.*



oldirty said:


> i drove down to new haven a couple summers ago. it was going to be a solid little chunk of change i was thinking for what looked like an 8 outta 10 on the treetarded scale.
> 
> blah blah blah later
> 
> ...



were those jammed in walled lots behind apartment buildings bordering a parking lot and Louis Lunch?
If it was those people were nuts.A management company called me from Indiana to look at that job.


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## oldirty (Jul 21, 2010)

no. i forget what town they were in. somewhere kinda out there near mds.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 22, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Ha. Jeffers. I bet that name sticks. It already has as far as I am concerned.



I like Jeffe' better


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## fishercat (Jul 22, 2010)

*Lol!*



oldirty said:


> no. i forget what town they were in. somewhere kinda out there near mds.



mds ain't no where near New Haven.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 22, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> I sent my buddy over to quote it.



I do a lot of that too, I know a few lowball hacks that are real good at cheap removals. They have a very good work ethic, it you do not take plant health into consideration. So if I know the owner has no money I tell them to call these guys, Or I send out an email blast.

Sometimes backing the bucket in and doing a cut n chuck is all you can do. I had one that i did for a low-cost leader in the region where they rented a 100 ft lift for me to piece the tree out. I hate pushing big meat off 70 ft up near a house. 

That cottonwood in the Quad Cities was a doosie! One of those low land trees that used to have the perfect siting, but modern land-use killed. The house was hold, and in a run down area of the city, I would not be surprised if it was a squatters fire that took it all down.


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## tree MDS (Jul 22, 2010)

fishercat said:


> mds ain't no where near New Haven.



Thankfully! lol.


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## oldirty (Jul 22, 2010)

fishercat said:


> mds ain't no where near New Haven.



dude was in nh and the trees were a hike up the road. like 45mins towards mds i think.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 22, 2010)

I have never refused a job ever, I have refused to do it half ###ed though so I price to be what its worth if its ugly and they want down then there price will reflect it ...


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## Rftreeman (Jul 22, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> You've been like an arboricultural Yoda lately, Jeffers. Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you.
> 
> There are trees I won't and haven't removed. Why should I? They scare me. At some point, explosives are a better option.


don't take this the wrong way but if certain trees and lifts scare you then you need to change professions or become a groundie..


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## Lawnmowerboy48 (Jul 22, 2010)

I have never turned a job down because there is always a way to do it safely. I also understand that you can be beyond safe and freak things happen, those suck.


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## fishercat (Jul 22, 2010)

*Oh,ok.*



oldirty said:


> dude was in nh and the trees were a hike up the road. like 45mins towards mds i think.



whatever floats your boat.:greenchainsaw:


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## oldugly (Jul 25, 2010)

I have actually done a couple that I knew were really dangerous, just because I was afraid someone else would get hurt on it. There are a few numbskull newbies in the area, and though I would rather they not be here, I don't want their lives on my conscense. There is another service in the area that employs a couple of new climbers, and run by a real old-timer that pushes them to climb some really scary crap. Sometimes you can see a safER way of doing things and you have to take the job to avoid passing it to some poor kid that doesn't know any better.


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## newsawtooth (Jul 25, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> don't take this the wrong way but if certain trees and lifts scare you then you need to change professions or become a groundie..



So, knowing my limits makes me a candidate for a career change? I don't have a bucket, have never used a crane, and don't really make much money on giant removals. The graveyard is full of people that didn't know their limits or appreciate the gravity of the situation. I'll stick with what I can handle and profit from.


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## tree MDS (Jul 25, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> So, knowing my limits makes me a candidate for a career change? I don't have a bucket, have never used a crane, and don't really make much money on giant removals. The graveyard is full of people that didn't know their limits or appreciate the gravity of the situation. I'll stick with what I can handle and profit from.



Good post! Tried to rep ya, but have to spread around.

I like big removals, but I have to say, I just looked at a tree for an acquaintance of mine (big storm damage, not my job), that I might have wanted to walk away from if it were my job. Some things are just too much of a pita/dangerous/not worth the headaches involved! That being said, if it were my job, I might (maybe) have a go at it - after some serious consideration and planning. 

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.. but the fact that it just might kill ya too is a big catch to ponder indeed!


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2010)

There is always a way to do it. Depends on the customer paying.
Jeff


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## newsawtooth (Jul 25, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> There is always a way to do it. Depends on the customer paying.
> Jeff



You're right there, El Jeffe. I just don't always know the way to do it. I'll leave it to you cats with more experience while I prune some Malus, Radiants and deadwood a few Fraxinus to cover wages.

Why doesn't spell check software on an arborist forum recognize words like, well, arborist for one?


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## tree MDS (Jul 25, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> There is always a way to do it. Depends on the customer paying.
> Jeff



I suppose you are right jeffers.. I will be waiting to hear how this one gets done, as someone is gonna have to do it. It'll be interesting to hear how, that's for sure. It's definitely gonna involve someone donning the ole man suit!


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> You're right there, El Jeffe. I just don't always know the way to do it. I'll leave it to you cats with more experience while I prune some Malus, Radiants and deadwood a few Fraxinus to cover wages.
> 
> Why doesn't spell check software on an arborist forum recognize words like, well, arborist for one?



Spell check don't believe in us!
Jeff


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## tree md (Jul 25, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> There is always a way to do it. Depends on the customer paying.
> Jeff



X2 :agree2:

Bad trees in tight places with no access is my niche. I advertise for them. That's what I call money trees.


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## treevet (Jul 25, 2010)

Reply to initial question...40 years....NO


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2010)

treevet said:


> Reply to initial question...40 years....NO



I am confused by that. Don't have too much fun on me!
Jeff


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## treevet (Jul 25, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am confused by that. Don't have too much fun on me!
> Jeff



Never turned one tree down. I have not gotten some that I wanted on my terms....but never declined to do one tree in 40 years. One tree was so dangerous I put a $10k plus price on topping to not get killed, but....surprise...they jumped on it...didn't die (unless I am living in a paralell universe where we have all died at one time I sometimes consider )

I have had a number of near death experiences.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2010)

treevet said:


> (unless I am living in a paralell universe where we have all died at one time I sometimes consider )
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. Jeff.


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## tree md (Jul 25, 2010)

treevet said:


> Never turned one tree down. I have not gotten some that I wanted on my terms....but never declined to do one tree in 40 years. One tree was so dangerous I put a $10k plus price on topping to not get killed, but....surprise...they jumped on it...didn't die (unless I am living in a paralell universe where we have all died at one time I sometimes consider )
> 
> I have had a number of near death experiences.



Same here. I have been at it awhile too. I have literally never turned a tree down. The most I have gotten for a single tree is $4600. I have bid them up to $8k. Best I have made is $750 an hour. I'll take a risk for that kind of money and always have.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 25, 2010)

17 years, turned only one down. Cottonwood with a major high long lead over a structure. Decay below the limb, tie-in point horizontal and 40 feet out from where the cut would be made. The order was to reduce the length. I told him I would call a buddy with a 90' bucket.

Bucket guy delayed for weeks and one night, no storms or anything, this limb crashed the roof.
I'm certain it would have crashed under my weight. That's what I felt when assessing it. It may be the only tree I ever walk from.


However, I've got a lightning-struck 130 foot hackberry that is has monstrous limbs from 80-110 feet, limbs two hugs around. Leaning the wrong way, dozens of trees right beneath. No ability to chop n' drop. Not bucket or crane accessible. This one makes my skin tingle when I think of it.
I won't walk away, but on this one I will need a good set of guys on the ground, preferably a contract groundie with a GRCS. I can handle the aerial, but I have to go really big. We'll get another three guys to do schlepping Anyone wanna step forward on this little doozie? Sanborn? You wanna run ground ops?

I've never had anyone lower material for me. I always have done it from up in the tree and had groundguy just unclip for me. This would be a unique experience for the Tree Machine. Anyone?


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2010)

OK, since we are all talking, My big scary days were back about 1994. Catalina Island, Blue gums at Pebbly Beach. They were from 120' to 200'. All I had to do was bring them down to 60' for the crane to take them. These are quanset huts under big euc;s, . I did about a tree every two or three days. Alot of speedlines and rigging transfers. I had a time limit to get it done, but I met a beautiful lady! 
Jeff 
BTW, the owner fired me at the last 2 to go, easy ones, quess I will never know why! Hope her name ain't Teresa!
Jeff


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## tree md (Jul 25, 2010)

I assume this is the one you were talking to me about last month TM. Sorry things didn't work out. Medical complications kept me from making it to IN to even attend my family reunion. I'd love to work that one with you but again, the medical thing is making me stick close to home right now. Lemme see what the doc says this week and maybe I can come help out.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 26, 2010)

Same tree, clients wiling to wait, at least til the weather gets cool.

You run your own business, MD. I can't see how you'd find time to come be my groundguy. That's silly to think a dude of your talent could even consider something like this.

It would just be another (really) big tree if it weren't for the opposing lean toward the neighbor and the dense treeline beneath. It requires lowering with tagline assistance to draw the limbage from over top the undergrowth. Or zipline, but I know I mentioned the limbs are rather huge and that I don't want to go small, otherwise we'll be two days getting this crown out. Like, using the 575XP & 24" bar kinda cuts at 80 feet up. The bifurcation of the first fork is 60 feet up and is at least 6 feet across. At least that piece can be bombed once we get there. The whole crown must be lowered _away from_ the area beneath the crown. It's a different beast. Probably would be smarter to walk away.


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## treevet (Jul 26, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> 17 years, turned only one down. Cottonwood with a major high long lead over a structure. Decay below the limb, tie-in point horizontal and 40 feet out from where the cut would be made. The order was to reduce the length. I told him I would call a buddy with a 90' bucket.
> 
> Bucket guy delayed for weeks and one night, no storms or anything, this limb crashed the roof.
> I'm certain it would have crashed under my weight. That's what I felt when assessing it. It may be the only tree I ever walk from.
> ...



If it was winter I would come down the highway and work with you. We booked.


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## treevet (Jul 26, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Same tree, clients wiling to wait, at least til the weather gets cool.
> 
> You run your own business, MD. I can't see how you'd find time to come be my groundguy. That's silly to think a dude of your talent could even consider something like this.
> 
> It would just be another (really) big tree if it weren't for the opposing lean toward the neighbor and the dense treeline beneath. It requires lowering with tagline assistance to draw the limbage from over top the undergrowth. Or zipline, but I know I mentioned the limbs are rather huge and that I don't want to go small, otherwise we'll be two days getting this crown out. Like, using the 575XP & 24" bar kinda cuts at 80 feet up. The bifurcation of the first fork is 60 feet up and is at least 6 feet across. At least that piece can be bombed once we get there. The whole crown must be lowered _away from_ the area beneath the crown. It's a different beast. Probably would be smarter to walk away.



Love to see some picts or vid?


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## treevet (Jul 26, 2010)

Noticed you are doing it in the cold. Maybe I bring my gm down and some stuff and we knock it out. Have talked of meeting you in the past.


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## tree md (Jul 26, 2010)

I'm having to deal with doctor appointments right now and business has been heating up. However, I was not happy about missing my family reunion and do plan to travel to Indy before the Summer is over to visit some family. Maybe I can help out if you've still got it on the line.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 26, 2010)

Well, I'm gonna keep this tree on the back burner. They're a 'go' anytime, but I need to have a strategy. I'm too booked to do the tree, but have to fit it in somewhere. I'd prefer Winter, the Summer of 2010 is just blazing hot, too much for a gargantuan dismantle. It's dangerous to put ground men in this kinda heat, with this physically demanding of a tree (70 feet up a grade to get to the chipper & trailer). I'll wait for cooler temps, whenever that might be.

Still looking for the guy with the GRCS or equivalent major league lowering device.

I apologise if I took this thread on a derail. Back to our regularly scheduled program.


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## newsawtooth (Jul 26, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> I've never had anyone lower material for me. I always have done it from up in the tree and had groundguy just unclip for me. This would be a unique experience for the Tree Machine. Anyone?



The TM is shelving the solo gig for a monster? You've had a good run, longer than most. Anyway for a mini skid to get down the grade? Sounds like quite an undertaking. You could have a semi-celebrity ground crew with the Vet down from OH and the Good Doctor up from OK. Might be fun.


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## pbtree (Jul 26, 2010)

Yes


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## TonyX3M (Jul 26, 2010)

Well I've been reading all your posts here guys and thank you for them but I would like to explain coupla' of things.
My initial idea to do that job was with a crane- but I do not do the bidding - the owner does; and guess what we were the lowest bidders (it was for a county so they always go for the lowest) - so there was no way to get a crane and not to go broke.
Second of all that lift just didn't feel right - there was too much horizontal movement in that bucket- when I stepped on one edge the other one would go up about 8 - 10"
Anyway the other guys in the crew didn't mind working with it so we did get it on the ground - and actually it helped in long run - I got little break from climbing- that was one helluva week 8-10 hrs 5 days in a row in 90+ degree weather


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## tree MDS (Jul 26, 2010)

tree md said:


> Same here. I have been at it awhile too. I have literally never turned a tree down. The most I have gotten for a single tree is $4600. I have bid them up to $8k. Best I have made is $750 an hour. I'll take a risk for that kind of money and always have.



I just did a tree last week for $4500.. and I tell you this thing I saw yesterday was bad ass! 

I went to look at it thinking "yeah right, I gotta see this, scoff, scoff". When we got there, there was another older guy looking at it, he says "its about as bad as you're ever gonna see". He might be right.


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## treevet (Jul 26, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I just did a tree last week for $4500.. and I tell you this thing I saw yesterday was bad ass!
> 
> I went to look at it thinking "yeah right, I gotta see this, scoff, scoff". When we got there, there was another older guy looking at it, he says "its about as bad as you're ever gonna see". He might be right.



sounds like a real bad bad ass.


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## tree md (Jul 26, 2010)

This was a semi-hairy one I looked at last year. Insurance job. The tree itself was not so hairy, just no access for equipment unless you wanted to bring in a monster crane to reach over the house which would not have been cost effective at all. The whole tree was to be removed along with the 6+ foot stump to be ground. I think I put a price of 42 or 43 on it. Didn't get it.


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## Abbershay (Jul 27, 2010)

It s never to dnagerous its whether they have enough money to pay to have it done.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jul 27, 2010)

tree md said:


> This was a semi-hairy one I looked at last year. Insurance job. The tree itself was not so hairy, just no access for equipment unless you wanted to bring in a monster crane to reach over the house which would not have been cost effective at all. The whole tree was to be removed along with the 6+ foot stump to be ground. I think I put a price of 42 or 43 on it. Didn't get it.



Be interesting to see what price it went for. Frankly no point in working for nothing and much less point in putting yourself and crew at risk for nothing. Can go do easier job or a few smaller ones for small $ if that is what you are after.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jul 27, 2010)

Abbershay said:


> It s never to dnagerous its whether they have enough money to pay to have it done.



Agreed!! Unfortunately some simply either do not have enough money, or somebody is willing to do it for a lot less.


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## Rftreeman (Jul 27, 2010)

Abbershay said:


> It s never to dnagerous its whether they have enough money to pay to have it done.


as well as the people that are looking at it have the balls or not to do it...as I said before, I got a guy that will climb anything........


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## treevet (Jul 28, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Agreed!! Unfortunately some simply either do not have enough money, or somebody is willing to do it for a lot less.



sometimes, too, they are just willing to bid less. When it comes time to do the job (if the dumb ascs gets it) they are all "well, I got to finish some other stuff" or I have seen them do all kinds of other parts of the job and then collect and skip the nasty.


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## tree md (Jul 28, 2010)

treevet said:


> sometimes, too, they are just willing to bid less. When it comes time to do the job (if the dumb ascs gets it) they are all "well, I got to finish some other stuff" or I have seen them do all kinds of other parts of the job and then collect and skip the nasty.



Around here they usually call reputable companies on the really bad ones. Sometimes they will get the street walkers but for the most part they look up pros on the big nasties here. I usually end up bidding against the same three or four guys on the bad ones here and we have all learned how each other bid. It gets interesting sometimes.

Where I really see them underbid is during storm work when you have everybody who owns a chainsaw and their brother out combing the streets. I have had countless encounters with people who have been told ridiculously low prices on their trees by fly by nighters and amateurs. That's when I tell them to make sure they are insured, leave them a card and tell them to call me if things don't work out. And they have called me on more than a few occasions when they either couldn't find the low ballers or they couldn't finish the job because they had bitten off more than they could chew.


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## voxac30dude (Jul 28, 2010)

i once turned down a 60 foot hawaiian keawe tree removal becuase it was too close to the power lines and had a big crack right down the center of the trunk. better to have a crane for that job.


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## mckeetree (Jul 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> This was a semi-hairy one I looked at last year. Insurance job. The tree itself was not so hairy, just no access for equipment unless you wanted to bring in a monster crane to reach over the house which would not have been cost effective at all. The whole tree was to be removed along with the 6+ foot stump to be ground. I think I put a price of 42 or 43 on it. Didn't get it.



I bid on one today that looked a lot like that in Kerens Texas. I bid 5500 and the old house wasn't worth much more than that.


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## treevet (Jul 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> Around here they usually call reputable companies on the really bad ones. Sometimes they will get the street walkers but for the most part they look up pros on the big nasties here. I usually end up bidding against the same three or four guys on the bad ones here and we have all learned how each other bid. It gets interesting sometimes.
> 
> Where I really see them underbid is during storm work when you have everybody who owns a chainsaw and their brother out combing the streets. I have had countless encounters with people who have been told ridiculously low prices on their trees by fly by nighters and amateurs. That's when I tell them to make sure they are insured, leave them a card and tell them to call me if things don't work out. And they have called me on more than a few occasions when they either couldn't find the low ballers or they couldn't finish the job because they had bitten off more than they could chew.



I agree md, it is 3 companies in my town that are capable of the most advanced removals. I am the only one that is just 2 employees. Couple of months ago a lady came out and said "everyone knows that just blank, and blank and you can handle this tree removal".

When I get the phone ringing non stop on storm stuff they think they are shopping for tree companies but with me the reality is that "I" am out shopping for jobs. I invariably get the 3 or 4 fattest jobs (big danger, big price tag, high (high) profile client, quick pay) and I will start them, do a make safe and start another. Then we gonna move down the chain in a triage fashion.

Partial performance is evidence of a contract.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 28, 2010)

I did turn down a job because they got another bid lower but said they want to use us if we could meet their bid, Nope, Turned it down, my bid is my bid.
Jeff


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## treevet (Jul 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I did turn down a job because they got another bid lower but said they want to use us if we could meet their bid, Nope, Turned it down, my bid is my bid.
> Jeff



Yeah ya can't change to their bid cause the ho may be making it up. Also you will get the rep you can be talked down.


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## tree md (Jul 28, 2010)

On the big nasty ones I get a price in my head of what it's worth to me and don't come off of that. First thing I do is think to myself that I am not touching this tree unless I net this much money. After that I figure what it's going to cost to get the job done and go with that. If someone else wants to do it for less then they can have it.


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## treevet (Jul 28, 2010)

Almost exclusively the top jobs I contract are the ones that a lot more damage could be caused by removing the tree than already done by the tree burrying its ass into the building.

They also don't want some dumb ass hee hawing around on it for a week. Presto its gone and another notch on the rep.


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## gwiley (Jul 29, 2010)

A friend tried to get me to take a large red oak that was leaning over his rental house. I explained that it was out of my league which sent us into the twilight zone...."can I borrow your saws and rope and do it myself?" NO

I suspect that this is usually the result of genuine ignorance regarding the weight, how to manage that weight and the power of said weight falling under the influence of gravity.

There is no shame in refusing a high risk job.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> On the big nasty ones I get a price in my head of what it's worth to me and don't come off of that. First thing I do is think to myself that I am not touching this tree unless I net this much money. After that I figure what it's going to cost to get the job done and go with that. If someone else wants to do it for less then they can have it.



I'm pretty much the same way, though I will negotiate on deferring work to the property owner; the usual things like- leaving the wood, not cutting it up, them doing coarse cleanup...

I'll want them to pay for my liability (eg deductible + some) and a comfortable profit afterward if something does go wrong.

On occasion I even included damage waivers when there are is large deadwood and pockets of decay over structures.

On the rare occasion the job is way to involved to waste time on formulating the work cost, like I have no idea on how to price in scaffolding, or properly installed deadman anchors. Then I may bid it as "Not to exceed $12,500" or whatnot. Then i will tell the HO to check insurance of anyone who has a very low bid...


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## tree MDS (Jul 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I suppose you are right jeffers.. I will be waiting to hear how this one gets done, as someone is gonna have to do it. It'll be interesting to hear how, that's for sure. It's definitely gonna involve someone donning the ole man suit!



It sounds like this dude is gonna skirt out on this tree maybe.. he is an "Arborist" after all. Lol.

The one guy was talking about getting a crane big enough to pick the whole tree - which I guessed at about 45k using the green log chart. Thats just the one half of this twin oak that can be reached with a crane. It's hung up in another big oak dead center behind the house, and partially uprooted/split at the twin.

Anyone ever heard of taking a pick that big.. I mean I guess it's possible providing you have a spot to put it down. I would take the day off to spec that scene out for sure!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Anyone ever heard of taking a pick that big.. I mean I guess it's possible providing you have a spot to put it down. I would take the day off to spec that scene out for sure!



I've heard of people doing the estimates on it, and the rental cost is prohibitive, and it would destroy the driveway too. They would have had to bring in a crane that would need assembly which would cost $8K alone, involving two smaller cranes.


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## tree MDS (Jul 29, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've heard of people doing the estimates on it, and the rental cost is prohibitive, and it would destroy the driveway too. They would have had to bring in a crane that would need assembly which would cost $8K alone, involving two smaller cranes.



We were thinking you could use a smaller crane that is still tall enough to go over the other oak that the one is hung up in, tie into the crane, dismantle/make the final relief cut like that. The log would land on the bank (if it even goes over all the way) and shouldnt hurt the septic system thats on top. The other half of it is hung up sideways in some smaller trees, out of crane reach. That would most likely have to be 3120/cut and hope material. lol. Interesting job this one.. one of the bigger twin oaks I've ever seem too.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 29, 2010)

Could you install a frame under the log to support it, maybe using some lolly columns and a welder?







I saw this at the ISA show, they want $7800 if i recall right.


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## tree MDS (Jul 29, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Could you install a frame under the log to support it, maybe using some lolly columns and a welder?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not a bad thought actually. The problem is that the tree is down a steep drop off to the rear of the house, so it would be a pita to lug too much stuff down there.

$7800 huh.. I'll bet those things are selling like hotcakes!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> That's not a bad thought actually. The problem is that the tree is down a steep drop off to the rear of the house, so it would be a pita to lug too much stuff down there.
> 
> $7800 huh.. I'll bet those things are selling like hotcakes!



Yeah, i said that if i used it for more then 3-4 times a year I could justify the cost....


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> That's not a bad thought actually. The problem is that the tree is down a steep drop off to the rear of the house, so it would be a pita to lug too much stuff down there.



Design it to bolt together so that the connectors are the same size as the nuts for the column adjustment screws. Have drive pins for the anchor plates so it does not slid down the slope...

Build the material costs into the job so they have the option for you to haul it out you labor cost to disassemble, haul and stow it at your shop. Should be two or three crew hours extra there.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> It sounds like this dude is gonna skirt out on this tree maybe.. he is an "Arborist" after all. Lol.
> 
> The one guy was talking about getting a crane big enough to pick the whole tree - which I guessed at about 45k using the green log chart. Thats just the one half of this twin oak that can be reached with a crane. It's hung up in another big oak dead center behind the house, and partially uprooted/split at the twin.
> 
> Anyone ever heard of taking a pick that big.. I mean I guess it's possible providing you have a spot to put it down. I would take the day off to spec that scene out for sure!



I'd like to see pics of that.
Jeff


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## treevet (Jul 29, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Could you install a frame under the log to support it, maybe using some lolly columns and a welder?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man that thing looks eminantly squashable.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 29, 2010)

treevet said:


> Man that thing looks eminantly squashable.



:agree2:
Jeff


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## Treeshaveneeds (Jul 31, 2010)

I have only turned down one - 20 Honey Locust trees (years ago) - the original Honey locust, bristling with clusters of 3 inch thorns.

Generally I price myself out of nasty trees, but explain why the price is the way it is. And I have priced a few I hoped I would never get, and generally I don't. For the cemetery job, I would recommend they get a service that regularly does crane work. I don't use cranes at all.


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## tree MDS (Jul 31, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Could you install a frame under the log to support it, maybe using some lolly columns and a welder?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got word yesterday that the tree fell down on its own.. went sideways, took out some other smaller trees, and just missed the house. So I guess it was pretty dangerous. 

Sounds like the big oak it was leaning in may be compromised, and have to go now.


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## treevet (Jul 31, 2010)

No where near as big as your tree but last week I took a 50 foot white pine completely uprooted and laying in another tree, boomed out and put a line 3/4 up and went up a tree opposite it 40 feet away. Went up it and put a pulley the same height up and a pulley on the base of this support tree.

hooked the line to the bucket truck and pulled the tree straight up....then installed a heavy duty cable with cast eye bolts and big washers on both.

The guy was ####less with happiness.


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