# Best method for falling dead standing timber?



## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

What is the best method for falling dead standing timber? (obviously you would probably avoid falling it if possible) Species are mostly shore pine, yellow cedar, with some red cedar, sitka spruce, & hemlock. These woods have never been cut, so there are some pretty big trees.

Bore to test for rotten wood, wedge asap/as much as possible, and leave liberal hinge wood?


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## 2dogs (Jan 11, 2010)

Kupreanof said:


> What is the best method for falling dead standing timber? (obviously you would probably avoid falling it if possible) Species are mostly shore pine, yellow cedar, with some red cedar, sitka spruce, & hemlock. These woods have never been cut, so there are some pretty big trees.
> 
> Bore to test for rotten wood, wedge asap/as much as possible, and leave liberal hinge wood?



Yes to boring, no to wedging. First examine your tree from top to butt from all angles looking for any imperfection. Always set your wedges so the tree won't set back on you but do so gently. Excessive pounding can break off limbs or bark or even cause the tree to break off. Also, when you are pounding you are not looking up. Your eyes need to be on the top of the snag. I make my gunning cut rather deep, say 1/3 of the tree diameter and cut the hinge up close. A thick hinge can cause a tree, esp a snag with no limbs to not fall. Plus that thick hinge will require alot of force to make the tree lean to the fall line. Like I said you don't want to over pound your wedges. A thick dry hinge can break from too much force, the the thick hinge will make the tree lift instead of lean, and you will lose directional control.

In a nutshell, swamp out, bore to test for rotten wood, don't expect a snag to cooperate in falling the propper direction, always look up and be ready to run, cut up close fast and leave fast.


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## Burvol (Jan 11, 2010)

Sounds like death to me. Greenhorn on internet asking for falling advice in SE AK...Cream of Wheat Avitar... Talk to Tramp, maybe he can swing up your way.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 11, 2010)

*Kake or Petersburg ????*

2 Dogs was 100% right on ... Snags pretty much NEED TO BE FELLED the direction they already want to go .......You want a very sharp and straight cutting saw .and try to not have it dogged in ..That way when you get hung up you can get the bar and chain off and get your powerhead away from there hopefully before it gets destroyed ....... Welcome to Arborist Site ... Do you live @ Kupreanof ??


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## 2dogs (Jan 11, 2010)

Burvol said:


> Sounds like death to me. Greenhorn on internet asking for falling advice in SE AK...Cream of Wheat Avitar... Talk to Tramp, maybe he can swing up your way.



Hey, I like Cream of Wheat!

But you are right about the death part.


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## Burvol (Jan 11, 2010)

2dogs said:


> Hey, I like Cream of Wheat!
> 
> But you are right about the death part.



Oatmeal powered here. Old Skool Oats, not the instant ones. 

I was just saying he might not be an experienced sawyer let alone faller. 

A LOT OF HAZARDS are in stands that have not had exposure. Dead, standing wood that has lacked the wind to blow it down, just waiting to kill ya.


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## gwiley (Jan 11, 2010)

I cut a lot of standing dead softwoods, a few observations:

Standing dead = brittle = LOTS of falling crap = higher risk of ER/morgue visit. You can not underestimate the damage falling limbs can do. Seemingly sound branches have a habit of breaking when the reverberations from hammering a wedge reach them. Make every effort to stay aware of the state of the remaining branches.

Snags can break in the middle of the trunk where you can't see damage from woodpeckers and insects. I have had the top 1/3 of a snag come down while I was sawing - it sucks to feel the ground shake and realize that part of the "tree" just missed you. I never saw it coming - if it had hit me I don't think I would be typing right now.

Hinge wood is brittle in a standing dead tree - you are likely to loose control of the fall much sooner than you would if it were more supple. Allow a wider margin for error.

I have managed to make major changes in the lay for dead leaners, but don't count on it. The bottom line is that the hinge can break very early at which point you have no control over the lay.


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## Burvol (Jan 11, 2010)

gwiley said:


> I cut a lot of standing dead softwoods, a few observations:
> 
> Standing dead = brittle = LOTS of falling crap = higher risk of ER/morgue visit. You can not underestimate the damage falling limbs can do. Seemingly sound branches have a habit of breaking when the reverberations from hammering a wedge reach them. Make every effort to stay aware of the state of the remaining branches.
> 
> ...




I'll somewhat buy that but, dead softwoods dosn't always mean bad hinge wood. Your thinking of rotten. Big difference. And you need to respect the _living_ branches on trees just as much as dead ones. Just beacause you think it's dead you pay extra attention....Give it that much respect at all times.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 11, 2010)

Kupreanof Island has some massively ####ed up hemlock snags on it ... Of course the ground is just as bad as the ground on most of Southeast . Not as bad as Dall Is. tho ........ Plus there can be some BIG spruce snags ..., and spruce snags often arn,t sound all the way up . like Gwilley was saying ...I,ve had them chunked is 5 big logs while they were in the air and only just closed the face ... .. BIG Saginaw ( top , conventional ) faces . up to half the diameter of the stump .... Gotta be way beyond careful ...... If you are in the Kake area . give Kevin Merry a call ... He,s an excellent faller .... a couple of the Cavanagh's are fallers .I can,t think of their first names at the moment ........... There used to be some excellent fallers in Petersburg .... I don,t know who is still there ....


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## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

My land is remote on Kupreanof. I have a few friends here with a lot of experience (retired professional loggers, one of which is my nearest neighbor 3/4 mi. away). I haven't talked to them about dead standing, but plan to next time I see them. I spent months this last summer clearing and dropping a lot of dead standing while living on the land so I'm not entirely green, but yes, I am new to it. 

I appreciate the concern, and with a lot of what I see, I can fully understand it. We just recently hooked up the internet and I'm appalled at what I see watching youtube videos and looking at pictures posted here. People are crazy.

I fully intend on taking my time and doing it right. You don't have to trust that and are welcome to insinuate my demise under a gnarly old hemlock if it will make you feel better though 

Oh, and Cream of Wheat...do I really need to defend it?


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## clearance (Jan 11, 2010)

I have cut down lots of scummy pos trees. But I have also seen many old growth snags that made me cringe. Doesn't bother me to say they were out of my league. Imho big old snags are for very experienced west coast fallers.


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## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

Most if not all of what I have been/will be cutting has been exposed to high winds (lived in them April-October so I should know) and is in the open fwiw. Most of it is limited as to limbs as well. Tall straight and dead (wish I had a picture to post).

Since you know the area somewhat, I have a question for you about yellow cedars. A high percentage of the yellow cedars I see are parasitic and growing around other dead standing trees like a snake. I have never noticed that anywhere else in the region. How common is that in other places? It's quite cool.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 11, 2010)

Burvol said:


> I'll somewhat buy that but, dead softwoods dosn't always mean bad hinge wood. Your thinking of rotten. Big difference. And you need to respect the _living_ branches on trees just as much as dead ones. Just beacause you think it's dead you pay extra attention....Give it that much respect at all times.



I,m on it now !!!!!!!!

. New Southeastener on here I check em out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

. Kupreanof .. Go to Rockies , in fact talk to Rocky himself .. He,s a great guy who sold me my first brand new bushlin saw in 84 . An 056 Super with a 36" 050 ga. bar ... That was before the Magnum came out .... ...It may have been a 32" bar , but I,m pretty sure it was a 36" aparantly you have a 660 . It better have a wrap handle bar :spam:. If you don,t have a good sharp pair of corks , don,t be tryin to fall timber of even go wandering around in the brush Your corks are an even more important safety device than a hard hat or chaps .......

I don,t to hear no lip from any chechakos or green horns who have never crawled around in the timber in Southeast ............. I,ve splinted guys legs together because of dull corks , and seen others flown out on a strecher because of them ....... So supposing Kupreanof has a 36" bar and a spare , for his 660 . and some spare chains .... he ought to be ready ... See if Larry Young still lives in Petyersburg ... He,s a good hand and a friend ..He logged for quite a while there .... . Also if you need to, Steve Olsen , is an Operator now , but he used to cut ... He would be a good source of info ...... These are all Alaska hands ... So most will look pretty stern if they think you are disingenous ..... And without their help you could end up pissin thru a cathater for the rest of your life , droolin . or dead ..So , It,s best to be careful and polite ..... Read the book .. Professional Timber Falling , a procedural approach , by D Douglas Dent ...........


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## 2dogs (Jan 11, 2010)

Kupreanof said:


> Most if not all of what I have been/will be cutting has been exposed to high winds (lived in them April-October so I should know) and is in the open fwiw. Most of it is limited as to limbs as well. Tall straight and dead (wish I had a picture to post).
> 
> Since you know the area somewhat, I have a question for you about yellow cedars. A high percentage of the yellow cedars I see are parasitic and growing around other dead standing trees like a snake. I have never noticed that anywhere else in the region. How common is that in other places? It's quite cool.



The cedar trees that grow in the Sierra Nevada are often parasitic. They will wrap themselves around another tree, say a Lodgepole pine (aka Tamarack pine) and eventually kill the pine. I think they take over the root system somehow.

Hey Tramp what kind of boomstick does this guy need to carry?


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## tramp bushler (Jan 11, 2010)

Who do you know that was a ogger there ??


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## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I'll take it.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 11, 2010)

what length bar do you have . What saw ECT.ECT. I,m very suprised he didn,t aready tel you not to be beatin on snags (wedging)


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## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

660 (yes full wrap) 36" bar 3/8 pitch .063 gauge... Like I say, I haven't talked with them about cutting dead standing. Talked saws and milling, sharpening, tuning etc... not falling.

All this pressure is killing me , why am I on the defensive again?


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## tramp bushler (Jan 11, 2010)

Welcome to the big timber !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
. The stress is because lots of guys end up dead ..Or busted all to rat #### ...
And no one wants that to happen to anyone ...........Even most enemies ....Yes yellow cedars can grow round and around and around they go .... Dog gone , I already burned lunch once typing this ... Like 2 dogs says , set a wedge in the back cut , but . only TAP ,gently .. don,t Pound on it ........LOOK UP ,,,, LOOK UP ,,,,LOOK UP Always look up ......... A plumb bob is a good tool to learn to use for directional falling ..... There are a million things to tell you . and no time right now ... Talk at ya later ..... Have fun ,,, Be careful .. Pray often !!!!


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## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

I was joking about the pressure, but it certainly is something I take seriously or I wouldn't have asked. 

I am not new to the state or region, in fact I was here for the 25th and 50th anniversary of statehood, got the first round of pfds, got my ss# here, watched a few midnight sun bball games and golden days drags and weathered many an interior winter. Been around Southeast as well.

I'm just laughing because posts like this always turn into a "who do you think you are to be doing..." followed by "well my brothers uncles second cousin saw a tree once, and since saw is what we're doing, I figured I'd be fine."

I couldn't decide whether to just shut up and avoid the banter or mildly assuage your curiosity and await the inevitable challenge. Oh well I guess it stands to be seen if I chose wisely. Your call.


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## Burvol (Jan 11, 2010)

Like Tramp said, it's dangerous. I hope you didn't take offense to the Cream of Wheat avitar...I figured maybe you were a chef or something :monkey: 

I'm not a mean guy at all, and I hope you learn a bunch from the old hands on this site. I just stressed the danger of it, and where you are at. It's like going from knot bumper to timber faller in one day, ya know? You have infamously dangerous ground and timber in your area, hope you have fun and hook up with some good guys. Take care and be safe- Burv


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## GASoline71 (Jan 11, 2010)

Best method to fall dead snags... is... to have someone else do them.

Someone with experience in doin' just that. If you have to ask about how to do it... You should prolly be lookin' for someone with experience to do it. Then learn from them.

I hate fallin' big dead stuff... So when we happen along on big, dead, punky, standing death trees... I call my buddy Dave in Arlington, WA. Dave is the man when it comes to fallin' dead stuff. He actually trains fallers here in western WA in the art of fallin' snags and hazard trees. WA State parks and rec has called ol' Dave to take unsafe big Old Growth Dougies out of campgrounds.

Gary


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## Kupreanof (Jan 11, 2010)

No sweat, nobody wants to encourage somebody to be stupid and then have it go South. Of course the less they know the more likely things are to go South in the first place, so not helping them can go both ways. 

That said there is a big difference between asking how to do it in order to learn to do it properly from the comforts of civilization, and standing under the tree with a blackberry asking for help. I would hope that anybody in the latter case would talk them off the bridge they're trying to jump off of and in the former case would help to educate them enough to go out in the field with those with experience and learn to give it a whirl. 

I want to use the wood, so punky, rotten, or even questionable wood is out. Not saying that the whole tree will be sound, but you can bet if the base isn't, I'm not cutting it.


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## Burvol (Jan 11, 2010)

The respect is what we're all talking about. Yes, you know people do it, and a lot of things are possible with the right skills. You definetly posses the ambition to get in there, and that is good. The shear magnitude of "the event of falling timber" (what could be considered big wood, I guess) is amazing. It is an artform that can breed machoism, but it demands respect at all times and is important to be a grounded individual. You never _totally_ have control over it, but you can posses a great handle on things if you know what I mean. 

I really don't even know where to begin from reading your last post. By the sound of it, your stand needs some cleanin' up. You might not want to tackle the ugly hazards, but they will tackle you; espically during/after you cut around them. 

Find one of the guys that Tramp mentioned.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2010)

Thoroughly inspect the tree and go through the process before you do anything. Deep face, bore it, cut the strap from as far back as possible and look up. Always look up, never turn your back on a tree that you are felling, esp. a dead one. I have little experience with felling dead softies, esp. big ones, but have hundreds of hours in felling dead hard woods. In my experience you don't want much hinge and make sure your cuts line up. You don't want your back cut lower than your gunning cut. The less wedging the better. I can usually put a dead one where I want it and have been able to swing them, but it is a tricky propostion. I had two today that didn't co operate. One had no fiber pull in the hinge. It just broke off and went 90 degrees off lay. Every nearby tree grabbed a branch and threw it at me. Good fun. I don't know if it was frozen or what, but it just went. Keep your ears open too and be ready to pin the throttle when you have too. Otherwise leave them alone or get someone else to do it. They are not worth it if you don't have to deal with them.


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## forestryworks (Jan 11, 2010)

carefully.

and ALWAYS looking up.

you'll never know what's coming if you don't look.


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## GASoline71 (Jan 12, 2010)

Burvol said:


> The respect is what we're all talking about. Yes, you know people do it, and a lot of things are possible with the right skills. You definetly posses the ambition to get in there, and that is good. The shear magnitude of "the event of falling timber" (what could be considered big wood, I guess) is amazing. It is an artform that can breed machoism, but it demands respect at all times and is important to be a grounded individual. You never _totally_ have control over it, but you can posses a great handle on things if you know what I mean.
> 
> I really don't even know where to begin from reading your last post. By the sound of it, your stand needs some cleanin' up. You might not want to tackle the ugly hazards, but they will tackle you; espically during/after you cut around them.
> 
> Find one of the guys that Tramp mentioned.



One of the best posts I've read in a long time Burvy... 

Gary


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## Jacob J. (Jan 12, 2010)

In addition to all the things guys are saying here, remember that softwoods in SE Alaska have weak and sometimes unstable root systems when the trees are green and healthy, and they fall apart fast when they die. 

I went up in the '90's and it was common for trees to pull their whole root systems out while going over. Guys were either tangled up in the ball and crushed or thrown in front of the tree.


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## 056 kid (Jan 12, 2010)

i have been wacked by locust several times.

one 20 or so lb piece grazed my back enough to ram me into the ground, the other was a little twig, it split my head open cause it fell from about 40 feet. . .

A big 450 lb chunk of sponge like rot from 60 feet will smush you like an Italin making wine. . .


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## tramp bushler (Jan 12, 2010)

. I wish I could have a look at your timber to see what is safe and what is real bad ...... I,m real serious about the corks ... When you gotta go , ya gotta go NOW . and corks are the only thing that will get you going ........ I do recomend snaggin your strip .. IE falling the snags the way they lean if possible just to get them on the ground ..Especially if they lean heavily ...... I,ve had lots of snags come down in my strips all by them selves . .... Also , if you can keep from opening up your beach fringe it will sure help you !! they help push the wind up and over the trees that are inside the fringe ......... ............Did you get land down the Narrows from Papkey's Landing on the Kupreanof side ???


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## Kupreanof (Jan 12, 2010)

We're actually inland quite a ways. We are the farthest inland in the area. The shore fringe is much much thicker, much bigger and thicker stuff than we have. We have stuff up slope a ways that is big and crowded, but ours are all in the open around muskeg. But that makes it easy to go with the lean and not worry about hanging it up in something. The wind tears through it all the time as it's on a saddle between two mild drainages where one butts up to the mountains and the other down more towards the shore, so it funnels the wind currents through our spot and right against the mountain. There is a big difference between our timber and that on the hills and down by the shore. I fully intend on getting into the big stuff eventually, but not for a good while, and then only the green stuff. For one thing the whole roadless suit needs to work it's way through the courts and/or Washington first...

The comment about the root systems is absolutely true and clearly a big hazard. Most of the overburden is either extremely shallow (thus the pancake roots system) or mush like around the muskeg, and therefore not prone to retaining the roots. We have a solid sand/rock/clay layer down 4-7 feet or so right around us, but up on the hills the overburden is very shallow and trees are occasionally uprooted by wind and water. We actually had a green leaner pine that was at about a 45 degree angle and split up the first 8 feet or so (pre-barber chaired). The roots held it in place at that angle which is quite amazing considering the length and girth of the thing (about 50'-28" with almost no taper). I took it down with all the leaners last year.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2010)

*Kupreanof , How you makin out ??*

I was talkin to Larry Young in Petersburg last week end . He,s workin for Reid Timber / Sand and Gravel .. I logged for Reid's in 83 . Jim Reid is hands down one of the 5 best all around Faller/Logger/operators I have ever met ... One of the nicest people I,ve ever met also ......
.
. Have fun , Be careful ...


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## Huskyman4k (Jan 21, 2010)

Follow these guy's advice man, you wont get any better.
you want two pair of eyes and a 6th sense to do this safely, take your time and if it is all going too good, stand back and have a good look because sure as eggs something will go wrong & I hope your one the ball and ready for it when it does.
Good luck & post a pic if you can


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