# Saddle Set UP



## Froggy (Apr 5, 2003)

What's up guys? I like the way my saddle is set up, but I was wondering how you all were set up. Thanks, BB


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## BigJohn (Apr 6, 2003)

Here is a view of my Buckingham versitile saddle. I cut the front strap out leaving just one loop on each side. I spliced some Hi V and attached it with stainless shackles. For a lanyard I have about a 8 or 9 ft piece of Fly with a bulldog snap spliced on the end. 

I am about to retire this full time saddle for a Kommet butterfly.


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 7, 2003)

John, nice to see someone else likes the microscender for a lanyard adjustment. I have used it on wire core, 16 strand and static and works for me better that a hitch.

I like the mod on your saddle using the 16 strand. Looks a lot smother than the webbing mod I did on my master. 

Good to have you here on AS!


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## BigJohn (Apr 7, 2003)

Did you stitch the webbing yourself? I do have a grillion and I like it. THe only thing is that it only accepts certain diameter ropes and doesn't work half in climbing line. I had purchased a new bulldog for my lanyard check it out. Its great. 16 strand was eaier to get a hold of than anything else that work with grillion at the time. I am going to get a kommet and I think I am going to go with a distal setup, and use some of the rock climbing rope offered by new england that has a really soft lay. I'm not sure if I'll try and splice it since they say it can't be done or just stitch it up and shrink wrap it.


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## Heath (Apr 7, 2003)

I support Big John's Decision. My Komet Butterfly is da bomb!
So comfortable, so light, so much movement. 

However, I know a guy who has had the floating d come apart on him! Anyone else with that problem? If so, how did you fix it?

The only problem I have had with mine is that it has a CE certification, but no ANSI stamp. So I was not allowed to use it in a work climb competition. Pissed me off, but I still got 5th place!

Snikuz


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## r/ctree (Apr 7, 2003)

i might be wrong but the micro ascender you are using is not rated for fall protection.


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## Stumper (Apr 7, 2003)

Er... r/c most of our gear isn't rated for FALL protection. We are working with suspension gear. The microcender is designed for use in life SUPPORT situations. I don't use one but I don't see a problem in using one for a lanyard adjustment.


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## BigJohn (Apr 8, 2003)

I really never use the lanyard much anyway. I believe it's good enough for the Europeans and I believe I am origally from one or two of those countries.


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## Mahk (Apr 9, 2003)

ANSI refers to them as either "work positioning lanyards" (Z 133.1: 3.16 and 8.7.2) or "personnel lanyards" (B.4.4). 

r/c is basically correct. The Microcender falls short of the 5,000 pound minimum breaking strength required by ANSI Z 133.1. I have looked into this before and the MBS for the Microcender is reported as somewhere between 4,000 and 4,500 pounds. Petzl's Micrograb (originally sold by Rock Exotica as the Microjuster) is made specifically as a lanyard adjuster for the tree industry and is essentially a beefed up version of the Microcender. The Micrograb (6 oz.) is one ounce heavier than the Microcender (5 oz.), but exceeds the 5,000 pound MBS and has a shoulder bolt and lock nut instead of the quick release pin that the Microcender has. See Blair's 'Arborist Equipment', pp. 112-113. 

That may all be moot, however, because when shock loaded the units will slip at around 4 kN (900 pounds). Depending on the type and diameter of the rope, these devices may even shred or shear the rope at shock loads that are lower than the MBS. 

Mahk


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## r/ctree (Apr 15, 2003)

so i take it your rope does not keep you from falling? what happens when you have to change tie in points and you use your lanyard. do you have your's pinned or bolted?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 15, 2003)

Mahk, 
You bring up interesting topics about breaking strength of a tool in a test situation and the actual breaking strength when it is in an actual working situation. 
Do you expect manufacturers to test the products before they put them on the market? Crap, that could cost thousands of dollars! Let the arborists use these new tools and if they start failing, then test them.

Before you jump on me and call me bad names, or put me on ignore, site five tests that have been done with droping loads on arborists climbing systems, as they are being used today. Good luck!
I go to ISA sanctioned climbing events and cringe at some of the techniques they allow.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 15, 2003)

I use 1/2 in HiVee in a Grillon, it works well till you get to the taper of the burry.

I'm with Mike on using new gear, we take risks all the time on the job. We dont want the industry to be like some of the big companies that will not allow anything but the approved list of gear and don't use a running bo'lin or you will be suspended. (there are companies out there that have that rule!)

I for wone would hart to have to climb without ascenders, and use a Ropeman on 1/2 in line frequently.

(Can I say here I do light rigging with my climbing line, or is that for another tread?)


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 15, 2003)

You have to take into consideration that the microcender will be holding 1/2 of the weigh applied to the lanyard. The lanyard rope is not tied to the tree or branch, it is put around it and connected back to the saddle.


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## r/ctree (Apr 17, 2003)

i belive that osha requires every part of climbing system to be 5000lbs or greater.


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## Burnham (Apr 17, 2003)

No D ring on the market meets that.


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 17, 2003)

When was the last time you had 5,000 lbs applied to your lanyard without your backbone being snapped like a twig?  As short as my primary lanyard is I doubt I could generate 5,000 lbs in the event of a fall. If a spar splits my climbing line wrapped and attached to my center D-ring will take the pressure until I can pay out my lanyard. If my TIP fails and applies 5,000 lbs to my lanyard I would die anyway. So, WTF is your point? Is it that I need to use equipment that guarantees I die? I would rather take my chances of getting into position for a 3 point landing than to have my back broken and internal organs crushed.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 17, 2003)

Once again we are confusing OSHA reg for ANSI standards.

ANSI is the bar to wich the employer will be held if there is a fatality. It is a standard, not regulation.


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## dbeck (Apr 17, 2003)

i don't know about every piece of gear, but ropes have to be at least 5400 lbs. easy way to remember? think of crappy arborplex rope...it is exactly 5400lbs, just enough to meet requirements.
where do you find the info on the d-rings burnham? are you saying that saddle manufacturers are selling us subpar gear? maybe the manufacturers are ignoring standards?


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## Stumper (Apr 18, 2003)

That "crappy" arborplex rope is what set the standard! What I've been told is that the standard was specifically written to match Arborplex specs back when it was the ONLY line specifically made for arborists. I climbed on arborplex years ago and was pretty pleased with it. It certainly was better than the Manilene (fibrilated polyethylene) that I was using before! The 1/2" Manilene had a breaking strength of about 3500 lbs but a melting point of about 225*F! I never had a problem but I also NEVER made a rapid descent on it. The way Brian reports burning up Polyester tress cords he would have wound up as a puddle of blood, bone and melted plastic climbing on Unmanila/Manilene.


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## Stumper (Apr 18, 2003)

Incidentally, let's not overlook John's point. ANSI publishes a standard. In the case of an accident OSHA will compare the facts surrounding the event with the standards of practice published by ANSI. However, that does not make the standard mandatory. Employers should follow it for their own protection. We all should know it for our own benefit in making imformed decisions. (So that we don't climb on Unmanila while Arborplex and a host of stronger ropes are available etc. etc.) If Joe Independent wants to climb on 1/4 turn twistlock 'biners and 1/2" manila rope OSHA has no say-- but Joe is either ignorant or foolish.


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## Burnham (Apr 18, 2003)

Dbeck, I surely don't mean that harness manufacturers are not giving us a good, safe product. Every ANSI approved model is drop tested to meet ANSI standards AS A UNIT. The harness as a whole, with life line attached at the appropriate point or points on the harness, meets that standard. Individual components may not. I have been told by New Tribe that the D rings used in their harness construction are 2500 lb. breaking strength. Sophia Sparks, co-owner of New Tribe, tells me that this is the case for all widely used D rings in the industry. New Tribe harnesses are carried by Sherrill, and are ANSI approved. If this part of my harness is stronger than I have been told by its manufacturer, I would be happy to learn it, but I am not concerned that my harness is unsafe.


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## Stumper (Apr 18, 2003)

Correction-I wrote that Manilene/Unmanila is fibrilated polyETHylene it isn't.. It is fibrilated polyPROPylene. Melting point is actually over 300* but 50% strength loss occurrs in the 200*-225*F range. I doubt that anyone cares but since I brought it up I better get my facts straight!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2003)

I guess i should elaborate my point a bit.

ANSI is a consensus standard made up by people from the industry. A rather large commitee gets together and a lot of horse trading goes on. 

People from Bartlets, Ashpundh and even Mark Chisholms Poppa to mention a few.


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## TREETX (Apr 22, 2003)

This is mine. Stock bfly with a mod. Still haven't cut the stock one off.

I think this mod is not for those who thought the stock front strap was too thin.

The duct tape is hubert's hand written "uber 25Kn"


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## TREETX (Apr 22, 2003)

another w/edelrid rope


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## TREETX (Apr 22, 2003)

w/lanyard. It is new. I have been climbing like mike with a long rope, short rope system. Trying to diversify a bit.


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## hillbilly (Apr 22, 2003)

TreeTX, is there a reason for keeping the original strap-rings,
or could you just as well replace them with the bow shackles
(instead of connecting the bow shackles to them) ?

Also, have you found that the front steel ring you added
wears harder on your carabiners than the strap would ?

Best Regards / hillbilly


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## TREETX (Apr 22, 2003)

Never thought of removing the original rings and replacing with the bow shackles. Seems difficult though. I would have to cut the original rings off - they are thick. The bow shackles are pretty small. Would be tight fitting all of that webbing in there. It would fit though. Have you seen it done??

The aluminum ring in front doesn't seem to cause any wear yet. I have only had it a month. I see more potential problems with the ring or krab sliding against the shackles.

I guess the ring is steel, it is light though.

Maybe cutting out the original rings and replacing with the shackles would eliminate the distance and problem of the ring sliding over the shackle.


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## TREETX (Apr 22, 2003)

Maybe cutting out the original rings and replacing with the shackles would eliminate the distance and problem of the ring sliding over the shackle.

Just the blue part would have to go in the shackle the red is the stock strap.


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## hillbilly (Apr 22, 2003)

No, I've never seen anyone else do it, however it is the way I plan on replacing my strap when the time comes.
I've already tried fitting bow-shackels in paralell with the
existing rings and also connecting some webbing, it worked.
I used larger shackels than the ones you have in the pictures.
They were almost as large as the existing rings, but 10 mm thick,
a bit thinner than the rings, gap was 20 mm, breking at 42 kN.
Good luck...and yes I encourage no one to try this...I just inform
how it could be done...if anyone would like to try it in theory


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## TREETX (Apr 22, 2003)

where can one buy these bow shackles?


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## hillbilly (Apr 22, 2003)

There is nothing special about them other than being larger
than the ones in your pictures. So anywhere where you
can by rated bow shackels would do. I bought mine
at a sailer's shop in Stockholm, not much use to you.
So how about
www.bosunsupplies.com, other members of this board seem to shop there.


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## Mahk (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> [... interesting topics about breaking strength of a tool in a test situation and the actual breaking strength when it is in an actual working situation.
> 
> Do you expect manufacturers to test the products before they put them on the market?
> ...




Mike;

Jean Arteau and Ian Langlais presented some results from drop tests that they and others had done on some specific arborists' climbing systems. Tests included five hitches (4 coil Prusik, Blake's, 4 coil Distel, 6 coil Prusik and 6 coil Klemheist); CMI asacenders with a Mar Bar kit and extendable lanyard; Lock-Jack; Mimono; Gri-gri; I'd; standard friction saver; friction saver with built-in energy absorber; pole choker; and an adjustable friction saver. 

As you point out, all of these tests were done after the products had been widely used by working arborists and the tests were done by an independant research team, not by the manufacturer.

I called New England Ropes to see what their test procedure is. All of the strength tests are done in-house. Once the product meets these requirements, prototypes are sent to a number of people to do field testing. The feedback from these field tests will either confirm the performance of the product or prompt changes to the makeup of the product.

What are some of the techniques that you cringe at at ISA events?



Regarding ANSI Z133.1 - 2000, an aerial lift operator is required to wear fall protection (Z 133.1 6.2.2). A climber in a tree wears a work-positioning saddle and lanyard (Z 133.1 3.4 and 8.7.2) .

Hardware is supposed to be rated at 5,000 pounds ( Z133.1 3.13 and 8.7.5 and 8.7.6). Ropes are to be rated at 5,400 pounds (Z 133.1 3.5 and 8.7.4). The rope/cord used to form a prusik loop or split tail for a closed climbing hitch can be less than 5,400 pounds because in these applications the rope/cord is doubled when it is in use. But, the loop must meet the 5,400 pound requirement (Z 133.1 8.7.4). Thus the actual tensile strength of the rope/cord itself must be at least half of that, or 2,700 pounds. 


Mahk


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 22, 2003)

Nate, have you thought of putting one of those Petzl sealed swivles on the new peice of webbing instead of the big fat ring?


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## Stumper (Apr 22, 2003)

I finally got around to taking a picture.


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## Stumper (Apr 22, 2003)

This is my current setup on a Weaver1040. I intend to upgrade to a more comfortable saddle soon. (The 1040 is comfy enough when working with my weight mostly on the lanyard but the hip pinch is awful when swinging on the climbing line.) The lanyard pictured is my new 14 foot BEDA (Bare Ended-Double Adjusting). The yellow line is my chainsaw lanyard, the other lines are eyespliced 3/8" nylon for light in-tree rigging.


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## lync (Apr 23, 2003)

*Simple solution*

When the sliding strap on my butterfly wears out , I thought I would just use a piece of climbing line, double fishermans knot to each of the stock aluminum rings. Maybe throw a piece of clear tubing over it (chaffing gear) to minimize wear. Any reason this isn't a good fix?

Corey


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 23, 2003)

I used 16 strand to mod my saddle after seeing a fellow AS member had done it. The only problem is that it is VERY slippery. While that is a good thing while pulling rope through a FS it is kind of freaky when you suddenly tilt while getting into position. The webbing I had used before the rope mod gave the right amount of friction to stay in place but allowed for easy movement. Maybe after it has been in use for a little while it will work better.


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## BigJohn (Apr 23, 2003)

You'll get used to the easy mobility of the new strap or "slipperyness". A buddy of mine has a butterfly and been tying a piece of static line in there since it was new. The straps used to be a bit too long. I just got a butterfly in the mail yesterday. The strap looks to be a bit shorter. With just having surgery yesterday I couldnt really try it. My right arm was still paralyzed when I tried it with some reluctant help from my girlfriend.


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 23, 2003)

Thanks for the mod info and picture John. I hope you recover soon. I know you are looking forward to climbing with the butterfly. Let us know what you think of it.


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## BigJohn (Apr 23, 2003)

I did make some mods to butterfly today. It didn't come with any saw or handsaw snaps. I was able to use some nice 1 inch webbing and sew in stainless snaps. I used a conventional snap for my chainsaw and a less conventional snap for the hansaw. I am hopeing this will keep the handsaw scabbard from comeing off in compettion. Take a look.


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## BigJohn (Apr 23, 2003)

The other snap


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## artic_arborist (Apr 26, 2003)

*pro austria "hiawatha" harness*

does any of yours use pro austria harnesses?
i have those and think these are ???? goood 
i dont need modifiet these. balanse is really good and leg straps ar more comfortable than butterflys.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 26, 2003)

Much confusion here.

ANSI is a standard. No gear is certified by ANSI. It's more correct to say that gear meets OSHA or ANSI standards.

I attended the Z133 meeting last Wednesday. There is a lot of confusion about the status of saddle standards in the US right now. Don't quote me yet, but I think that I understand that since the B'fly meets EN standards that it is OK to use in the US.

I'm going to get a clarification on this issue before the TCC season gets too far along. Look for the clarification here or on T*ee B*zz.

Most manufacturers run extensive tests on the gear that they produce. The catch is that climbers will find applications for some gear that the manufacturer didn't design for. Then, in the case of failure, the climbers or thier heirs, expect the manufacturer to be liable. Or, climbers get told that they can't use a system because it doesn't meet the exact design parameters of the manufacturer. This puts everyone in an awkward position.

Tom

Tom


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## FBerkel (Apr 27, 2003)

Mahk,

One dangerous technique frequently used in TCC's is footlocking (with prussik) too far up a doubled line over a wide limb. I've witnessed many guys doing it , and did it myself a few years back, better judgement overpowered by competetiveness. Good judges probably catch this and warn the climber, but bad things can happen pretty quickly.


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 27, 2003)

I use a Petzl Shunt clipped to my center d-ring for foot locking. The Shunt eliminates the problem of rope spread when you reach the limb. At 4945.6 lbs if falls just short of the 5,000 lb minimum but will slip way before reaching its breaking point like the Petzl Micrograb or Footlocker. The Shunt is small and takes up very little space on my saddle. It is right there if I need to use the other end of my climbing line for a second TIP. The Shunts works like a self tending friction hitch and is very fast to install and remove.


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## treeman82 (Apr 28, 2003)

Tom, I had talked with Dennis Ryan and Ken Palmer a week or two ago about the Butterfly, they said that it doesn't meet any standards and should not be used for tree climbing. I don't remember the exact conversation, but I believe Ken said that he will not allow the Butterfly in the competitions


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 28, 2003)

But then Arbormaster has their own lable saddle line so there is some conflict of interest there.

Ryan is known to have...shall we say some very strong opinions about new gear. I've never realy met the guy so I cannot realy say anything either way there.


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## BigJohn (Apr 28, 2003)

In my opinion Ken Palmer should be voted out, asked to resign. This guy cleary has his own intrests in mind. It's all about new things. Not promoting arbormaster. I heard Chisholm never had a chance this at the internationals this past year because it would put him up there with Palmer being a three time champion and Ken wouldn't allow that. The guy really has the wrong attitude.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 28, 2003)

Mark got some flack about the Fly Rope, Howard from NER jumped through some hoops to get the paper work to those people a second time.

But Mark did hurt himself, so was not at his peak for the competition.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 28, 2003)

82 [by the way, what is your name? After all this time posting, I can't remember ever seeing your real name, but Mike Maas is the champion of the Names Committee  ]

Well now, you're confronted with a dilemma here. Which opinion do you believe, if either. The three weeks before the Z133 meeting I was in the UK spending time with a friend in the industry. We spent time going over the applicable saddle standards and certifications. From those discussions AND what was said at the Z133 meeting by Jim Pennefeather [ from Buckingham] the Butterfly meets the US standards as they are now in place.

The issue of using the B'fly and other non-American made saddles in competition should be settled long before the ITCC. The decision should be made by unbiased participants. Also, the applicable manufacturing and certifying standards need to be investigated. If those standards haven't changed since last year, how can they change the rules? The Butterfly was OK last year, why shouldn't it be OK this year?

Here's another issue that I found while reading the Z for the umpteenth time. Look at 9.2.2: Scabbards or sheaths used to carry handsaws when not in use, shall be hooked to the arborist saddle. Etc... That makes all of us leg scabbard users Outlaws. Or maybe that only applies to American climbers


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## BigJohn (Apr 28, 2003)

I guess he would get some flack using anything but Samson. I hear at our comp in the penn del chapter we can't use the fly but for the throw ball to pull a line through. I hung a rope once for Rip, some New Englan H V and he pulled out pulled through some blue streak. Said he wasn't allowed to climb on it. I wouldn't care what I got paid from a sponsor. I'm no ones ????? and would climb on what I ever I wanted. I just thinks its too political and crazy. Its about having fun and staying safe.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 28, 2003)

Big John,

There is ABSOLUTELY!!! no reason that Fly can't be used as a climbing line. Any tech judge who says otherwise needs to get educated. Look at the NE website or read the Sherrill catalog. What is their justification for not allowing the Fly?

I can understand Rip's position though. Would you allow any of your employees to wear one of your competitor's T-shirts? I sure wouldn't  And, I would have to question my employees integrity if they were working on one of my jobs and wore another shirt. If it was on thier own time I would still question it but with a little less scrutiny though. 

Tom


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## treeman82 (Apr 29, 2003)

Tom- I just sent you an e-mail, but my name is Matt. It's alright... I understand, I'm sure I will have the same problems you are having with remembering names when I get to be your age  

Ken had said when I met him that the Butterfly does not meet US or European standards. The only thing it does have is that EN stamp, and it does meet one standard for 1 type of harness... but I don't remember what that was. He said that he would not allow it in international competitions. But that is just what I remember him saying to myself and to Dennis. As we all know... my memory isn't always 100% when it comes to what I have been told


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## tjk (Apr 29, 2003)

In reading the revised rule book I believe the new rule on climbing lines is that they must be 12.5 mm to climb off of. you can use smaller lines to acsend or pull a rope thru during throw ball. Maybe I mis read it.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 29, 2003)

In order to move this discussion along, I'm going to quote a reliable source on this issue. I apologize for keeping my source anonymous but it would take too long to get permission to use his name. Suffice it to say, he has MAJOR credibility in the profession.

This is what he wrote about the B'fly:

I had lunch with Rod Paul (Bashlin) yesterday. Because there is no ANSI 
A10.14 there are currently no standards for tree saddles. 

How can a saddle be barred from competition if there are no standards for their manufacture?

Someone brought up at the Z133 meeting the fact that a climber could tie into a bowline on a bite or a three loop bowline and climb. Also, tieing a Swami seat out of webbing would work too. If so, again, how can any saddle be barred?

Tom


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## tjk (Apr 29, 2003)

Any idea when this will be cleared up. I will be competing in Montreal and do not want to bring 2 harnesses and 4 ropes.


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## Burnham (Apr 29, 2003)

I have done a couple of searches here and at BB, hoping to avoid asking a dumb question, to no avail. So here goes...I thought OSHA and/or ANSI standard for climbing lines was 5400 lbs. AND 1/2 inch diameter. The Fly rope is a smaller line...and the only reference to this discrepency in my understanding of the standards that my searches and reading LOTS of posts turned up was one reference to the effect that "since 1/2 inch is no longer required, this line is acceptable". Please help me out with what is what on this. Thanks.


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## Tim Walsh (Apr 29, 2003)

ANSI Z133.1 -2000


3.5 arborist climbing line. 

Arborist climbing lines shall have a minimum diameter of 1/2-inch (12.5 mm) and be constructed of a synthetic fiber, with a minimum nominal breaking strength of 5,400 pounds (24 kn) when new. Maximum working elongation shall not exceed 7 percent at a load of 540 pounds (2.4kn). Arborist climbing lines shall be identified by the manufacturer as suitable for tree climbing.

EXCEPTION: In arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1, a line of less than 1/2 inch diameter (12.5 mm) may be used, provided the employer can demonstrate it does not create a safety hazard for the arborist and they have been instructed in its use. The strength and elongation ratings of the line selected meet or exceed that of 1/2-inch arborist climbing line.


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## BigJohn (Apr 29, 2003)

So will the fly be allowed? It is not 1/2 inch. That is the reason I was told.


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## Stumper (Apr 29, 2003)

Yup......pie! 


A lot has changed for us both in the past year.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 30, 2003)

I hate to jump back and forth on this disscusion but I did want to comment on Tom's assertion that any saddle will do.

Because there is no standard for saddles, can we agree that they should meet the requirement that each part of the climbing system meet's the 5400 pound minimum? If so, the Butterfly complicates things because the snaps have an 1800 pound breaking strength, I've heard, don't want to mention the source of that information, and don't know if it's right or wrong.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 30, 2003)

I want to add that I climb on a Butterfly and think it's safe and the best saddle out there, hands down.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 30, 2003)

Mike,

At the Z133 meeting in DC last week, Jim Pennefeather, from B'ham said that they tested the buckles on the B'fly and, I seem to remember but I didn't write the numbers down, they broke closer to around 4K#. Still below the 5k# of rope.

Untill we know exactly what standards saddles are tested to, all of these breaking strengths don't mean much. From what I've gleaned from UIAA and now EN testing, the saddles are tested in a "fit for use" scenario. The saddle is put onto a test dummy and dropped. Saddles are tested like their used not by testing each piece of the whole.

I've gotten some clarification on the B'fly and it looks really good. Until I get permission to share the information from its source, I have to respect the author's privacy. This topic may soon be put to rest.

An over riding consideration in all of this: there is little to no "testing" on the holding strength of climbing hitches. There are only three sets of tests that I know about. Considering all of the combinations and permutations of rope, cord and climber weight, I think that worrying about a buckle breaking at 4k# or even 1,800# is less of a concern.


Tom


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## TREETX (Apr 30, 2003)

I think some of getting past gear check is how you "sell" your gear. My tres cord was Sta-set 8mm from Sailnet.com. Another guy had the same cord and when asked about it, he said it was from a sailing/marine supply store - cord banned. When I was asked, I said it is Sta-set made by NE Ropes when tied in a system has a brk. strength of 6000lbs. No problem.

Anyone who bans the bfly is a friggin moron. It is that simple. That or they need to publicly declare and denounce the EN, CE, and TUV cert systems.

With lawsuits being everywhere, everything gets over engineered to prevent their a$$ from getting sued. If European standards are lighter, maybe it is a result of effective tort reform and the lack of runaway slip and fall type lawsuits. This problem goes deep.

Know your equipment, know the ratings of all the components.


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## BigJohn (Apr 30, 2003)

Brian, glad to hear you got a new saddle. I would have never guess you'd been climbing on an old style saddle. I'd put money on you being able to that same tree in 1 day instead of two with the new saddle and little ambition. 

I finally got to use my butterfly today. I running all around and had a crew out with a new climber. I showed and the climber asked how he was to get to the top of one the leads. He said he was going to try and reach over with a pole saw and make this 8 inch cut. I told him to worry about the side he was in and I would take care of it. So anyway I single lined to the top of that lead and tied in with my new RG and cut the tops and out and came down. I never realized that I was wearing a legstrap saddle. It was as everybit comfortable as my modified Buckingham and even more comfortable. I'm very satisfied with it.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 30, 2003)

My understanding of the load design of the saddles is that the waist will take X% and each keg will take Y%. Cannot remember exactly, but I think one was quoted as 60 for the waist belt, and 20% for each leg. If that is the formula then each leg assembly should resist up to at least 1000# of force.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 30, 2003)

*How much of a reform?*

i look as the line as a 'wearable' resource, and think that it and all the abuse it gets, it should be strongest link.

But if someone was ok'd on jobsite/competition to use an 1800# D-ring, could they then get 'bleeped' for not using a 5000# snap/karab to link to it?

How low can we go? Should any part of a system be able to take a 250# man (yeah , like i'm worried!) dropped 5'? ........With a safety factor?

Of course any give/abosrbtion in the line/TIP would buffer some of those numbers, but i don't think that should be factored in.

But if we here, were the concerned and informed to decide for everyone else, what test dummy (throw me back, i'm too small) from what height drop, with what safety factor are we drawing to?

Shoud the categories of breakdown be metals, non- frictioned synthetics, frictioned synthetics? Should every supporting feature be calculated in single line pull, or some calculated as shared supports ie. would a side D for lanyard that is used typically in conjuction with another side D, have to be as strong as a single karab that would be used to hold all of your weight?

i've heard a lot of that laughing myself Brian, sounds like it fades rather quickly? Is that seat board a 'hard' sit?

Been a few times working around others that the other climbers where already up, i'm still throwing lines in...... pre-setting the far end of rigs in, so all i have to do is butt tie and cut to remove a huge horizontal etc. cradled between the 2 lines. Few swings, whipping out rescue pulleys and slings to redirect high support and friction to right where i want, to rig something off a skinny branch that had hardly any real weight on it ( most force on high support), so branch just plumbobbs load under it, working around the tree like that in stations from the same high support. if the branch isn't quite over a good delivery area, stringing slings from opposite angle than high support that makes the line deliver to a sweet spot. They don't whisper and make faces quite as much the next day you show up, to be sure!

:alien:


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## Froggy (Apr 30, 2003)

*Saddle*

Well I have to say ignoring all the rules. If a climber is comfortable with his or her know how and knows what they feel is comfortable in a tree. Then they should use their own experiance combined with their know how on choosing gear. Along with all the up to date research and information out there. It all boils down to what a climber feels safe with in a tree. As I've been told many times it's your a$$ up there. So you have to feel the safest and most comfortable you can possibly with out putting your life in the hands of others oppenions. So use what you know combined with what you can learn to choose your gear.


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 30, 2003)

Brian, congratulations on the new saddle purchase. After climbing with the butt strap and leg strap saddles I will stay with the leg strap. The freedom of movement is the biggest reason but I will not miss the hip squeeze or the butt strap creeping up. 

The accident my brother had while climbing is enough to illustrate the need for a saddle to hold more than just the climber’s weight. One of the logs they were roping out fell in the wrong direction and a small stub managed to get caught on his saddle. It held until the log was secured and the saddle was then cut away. If the saddle had not been over built it would have given way and he most likely would have died on the job site. I am sure the strength built into a saddle is not there for every day use. It is there for the one time when things go wrong.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 1, 2003)

> JPS- The leg straps only keep my bosun seat (butt strap) from riding up around my waist. They do not holdANY of my weight. The bosun seat holds my weight. I have them loose enough for air circulation between the straps and my thighs.



I'm talking about the legstapdesign since that is what the b'fly is, and assuming the minamal requirment of 5000# I'm sure the design is derivated from logging/lineman belts which have their own standard.



> But if someone was ok'd on jobsite/competition to use an 1800# D-ring, could they then get 'bleeped' for not using a 5000# snap/karab to link to it?



In taking the 5000# standard, then a side D would need a minimum of 2500# since it is an attachment point. BTW I've been told that ANSI reqiures not using side D's as single points of attachment. That is, you should not take a wrap and clip you flip line off to itself and then just one D.

FWIW


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## NickfromWI (May 1, 2003)

*Two things*

First, regarding what John Paul just said about not using a single D-ring for a tie-in-point. I've read and had it advised to me when taking down big chunks of a spar that you are flip-lined in to, one SHOULD have both end's of the flip line connected to the same ring. That way, if the spar splits, the climber will not get sucked/slammed into the tree.

Food for thought.

Finally, regarding how strong things need to be to hold a person. Ever since I first started climbing, I always thought a 10:1 safety factor was smart. That means that if I weigh 165, I could concievably climb on a rope rated at 1,650lbs. For my footlock prussiks (which are NOT doubled-over because there is an eye on each end) I feel good on a rope that is at least 3,000lbs. (Which is well above 10:1, for you math-nuts)

I guess that's it.

love
nick


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## Stumper (May 1, 2003)

Backing up to something that Burnham posted 2 weeks ago. He said that no D on the market meets the 5000 lb standard. The D's on my Weaver are clearly stamped 5000 lb and the date of manufacture!
I agree with everyone that the standard is High, Arbitrary and -sometimes -vague. If the saddle as a unit meets a reasonable standard there should never be a problem.


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## Tim Walsh (May 1, 2003)

I think that JPS was referring to not tying in to a single side D ring, as the saddles were not meant to take a shock load on that point (neither is your body). 


Nick, the standard says:

"9.4.4	When large cuts are being made in single spar trees, both ends of the work-positioning lanyard should be attached to a single point on the arborist saddle to prevent injury to the arborist should the spar split. The same technique should be used when making large cuts on large horizontal limbs which might also split. Hip or side dee rings of the arborist saddle should not be used for this purpose."

I take this to mean that one should attach both ends of the lanyard to a central point (D-ring or other point that you would normally tie into) on the saddle, not just a single point. That is to say, this is what I do.

Thanks,

TMW


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## Burnham (May 2, 2003)

Sounds like I need to check my D rings for markings...or lack thereof. Ya thunk ya knew sumpin', then...Thanks, Stumper; time for a trip to the gear locker. Anyone else got input on how the individual components of their harnesses are marked?


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## BigJohn (May 2, 2003)

Anyone know why we should tied in to a single point when on a spar and some other precautons to take?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 2, 2003)

Not only is it always safer to attach in the center, it's a lot easier. Who wants their weight suspended from the sides, unless all your weight is on a different line and you only use the lanyard for positioning, and even then, it's still nicer to be attached in the center. 
I said it for years, but nobody listens to me, same thing with saw handles, you all just think I'm nuts, until you figure it out, then it's: oh yeah, it is better.


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## Rob Murphy (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Grab your 2002 Sherrill catalog and look at the cartoon at the bottom of page 15. That shows the type of situation that could be addressed by bringing both ends of your lanyard to a single attachment point instead of having the lanyard clipped on either side of your belt. *



Rocky Can you post the pic .....I can't find my 2002 cattledog...now did I lend it to someone???Does sherril do an online version?With the cartoons I mean.

Be him ever so humble their's no bloke like Mike


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## Rob Murphy (May 2, 2003)

Early on in my climbing i had the same thing happen to me ! I was tied in with my climber and attached to a large leaning spar with my wire core lanyard. I put the face cut in and then started the back cut. Shortly into the back cut the limb started to split....I remember letting go of the saw and trying to relase the lanyard clip...the limb hung there as I fiddled with the clip.Crack ...the limb let go ..and I hung there and and still cliped in to the spar. There was simply not enough time .I was a major lesson for me..


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 2, 2003)

The facecut is like a pressure relief, allowing tremendous leveraged force to flow in that direction. It's shape reminsicient of a tire chock built to hold force back. Without facecutting is allowing that force to build up back pressure and split, barber chairing etc. Just as directly in line to the rear is the most leveraged pulling restriction, the farthest outward point of tree circumfrence in line with the fall, is the most leveraged pushing restriction (face). Both are most leveraged positions of passive force restriction, showing the power of each these twins here, in the example of the face cut on the one side.

On suspect toppings (split, dead, weak species etc.)sometimes i put a sling around 2 x, and get it basketed around tightly on a karab in long axis position, then leverage the length of the karab to stand out perpendicular to spar, so sling (perhaps series of loop runners) tightens even more. sometimes i lock it around a stob to stay in position, or even hook to belt for support too. Lean back to maintain sling set in tightened position on spar. shouldn't split that stuff on the scale i play at, and if it did, i think id, be alright,a s it let go of karab.

When rigging out on cracked spar, block/top and catch, have found that the choking action of the pulley's attatchment to the spar helps keep the cylindrical solid shape, aiding in preventing cracking.

Trucker's 2" webbing and ratchet is about 10k, is pretty good too. Especially when final tightening is with empty drum; point of most mechanical advantage/ leverage. Same as using come-a-long to tighten, maintain cylindrical shape, empty spool is most leverage; but come along needs a couple wraps so main pull goes to friction on drum and not mechanical stop on end of cable in to drum(weakest point), with the most pulling leverage the device could muster(empty spool).

One emergency job i did that at night with 2 binders, then put a line on worrisome limb over house, close to it's center of balance; gave direct overhead support ran line across top of the tree over column of direct support through trunk, tied to limb on the other side with tight line. Then cut that 2nd limb off to hang on the safe side, to support the limb over the house, even dampen motion nicely. So i could do it more safely in the light, for it was huge, wet, with more rain in the hour. Also, so i could disarm the one next door quickly!


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## BigJohn (May 2, 2003)

I had hear a story of a guy who was on a spar with just a lanyard on chunking out pieces. He was notching just cutting straight through and pushing them off. Well one piece ripped down the side and flipped him up and over the spar and he did summersaults to the ground. He was lucky and lived with some serious injuries. I still see people do things like this one guy in piticular but I never say anything to him only because he honestly one of the best climbers I know personaly, been to the ITCC. I don't feel it's my place to say anything. Maybe he knows something I don't but I don't ever take that chance. I will speak up when I see him do something I know for certain will result in injurie. Such as the time he place his line over the outside of the lowerline as he was chunking down wood above the pulley instead of behind the line.


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## Tim Gardner (May 2, 2003)

There was a climber killed in my town last year when the spar split on him. I spoke with the person that lived next door to the jobsite when I went to pick up the logs. He said the climber made the face cut on the tree in the front yard but not on the one in the back yard. He lived for one week after the accident. I was told his wife was going to make molding from the tree he was in when the accident occurred. 

We lost two climbers that year. Both were friends of mine.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 2, 2003)

Rob, it is to keep you out of the loop, so to speak.

Even better if you use a climbing line vs. a lanyard, then you may be able to releave pressure with the hitch and escape.


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