# Help Identify Mystery Conifer (big Pics)



## Daninvan (Apr 23, 2010)

A bunch of these logs showed up at the cutting area recently. I need some help figuring out what wood it is. 

The pieces are about 2 1/2' in diameter, but not very long unfortunately, they were cut into shorter lengths to make them easier to manage I guess. 

I don't know if it is a native species or not. As you can see it was quite happy growing here though, the growth rings are up to 1/2" apart. I estimate the tree was only about 60 years old. 

A couple people suggested fir, but I am pretty sure it is not any local fir species. Douglas fir is common locally but this is definitely not Doug fir. 

The sapwood was originally lighter than the heartwood, the sapwood has stained an orange-y colour as it sat there.

It does have a very distinct aroma. It's a pleasant smell, to me it smells "dry" if that makes any sense. Now that the logs have been sitting for a while, there is a very distinct element of peach or mango in the smell. 

The branches are sparse and huge.

My only other guesses are cedar of Lebanon or sequoia? I couldn't find any info on if sequoia has a smell.

I've attached a picture of the log, the end grain, and the bark.


















Thanks!

Dan


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## jredjim (Apr 23, 2010)

White pine?


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## smokinj (Apr 23, 2010)

Looks like hemlock to me.


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## Daninvan (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks for the ideas guys.

White pine, I am still researching that one. 

Hemlock, I'm not so sure. Hemlock's odour is described as "slightly sour when wet - odourless when seasoned". This wood has a very distinctive smell. Also, that there is little difference between the heartwood and sapwood colours, but this piece has very different heartwood and sapwood. 

Keep those suggestions coming!

Dan


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## mtngun (Apr 23, 2010)

The orange color crosses several rings. If it were sapwood, wouldn't it be parallel to the rings ? I'm thinking it is a stain.

I don't recognize the bark. Way too thin for ponderosa.


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## smithie55 (Apr 23, 2010)

Not Hemlock
Could be Larch
The middle picture looks like it might be sappy?
Any odor that you can describe?


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## rbtree (Apr 23, 2010)

could be cedrus...deodar or possibly atlantica


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## RPM (Apr 24, 2010)

Your bark shot sure looks like doug-fir but not the wood. Hemlock maybe? Its not a western larch and bark is wrong - not in Vancouver ...and not White pine either.

I bet a beer on Hemlock!


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## Daninvan (Apr 24, 2010)

Interesting!

Another strong vote for hemlock, but, respectfully, I remain skeptical. This wood seems just too aromatic for it to be hemlock. Not a hint of sourness, more like a fruity sweet cedar to me, maybe closest to Port Orford cedar smell.

I'm still thinking it might be cedar of Lebanon. The barks of deodar and atlantica are too smooth for this chunk to be either of those. 

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/dendrology/syllabus2/factsheet.cfm?ID=851

Larch? I am not familiar with that at all, but the few pictures of larch's bark that I've found on line don't seem to match well. 

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/Dendro/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=214

I'll try and go down on the weekend and get a better end grain shot, that might help. There are several other pieces, perhaps I can get a better bark shot as well. I can also cut off a piece so we can see more than just the end grain.

Thanks for the ideas!

Dan


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## Gunther274 (Apr 24, 2010)

Im going to agree with larch as a possibility, and a spruce, or fir also.


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## PineFever (Apr 24, 2010)

Coulter Pine maybe, the guts look right, but the bark is a little off.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 24, 2010)

RPM said:


> Your bark shot sure looks like doug-fir but not the wood. Hemlock maybe? Its not a western larch and bark is wrong - not in Vancouver ...and not White pine either.
> 
> I bet a beer on Hemlock!



Well I won't challenge that bet! I think that's probably right. Either that, or I'd guess a Norway Spruce yard tree given the silvery outer bark and reddish inner bark (though not as scaly as I would expect on a Spruce), combined with the very wide growth rings that are common in heavily watered yard trees. Though, even the "wild" trees down your guys' way are heavily watered compared to our yard trees up here! The fact that it has center rot helps the Hemlock hypothesis - they're not known for their rot resistance.

I'm 100% sure it's not Larch, for a few reasons. One is that 30" diameter is a HUGE larch; not to mention that they aren't native to the Vancouver area so it would have to be a yard tree (and even then wouldn't be too happy about it), and Larch won't grow that big in +/- 60 years no matter what. Another reason is that Larch bark has very large, loose scales not unlike Shagbark Hickory and such; though the bark coloring on this log are about right for Larch. This log's bark has more of an "alligator-skin" texture that Hemlock tends to get. Finally Larch wood is a quite distinct reddish-orange much like Douglas Fir; they're even graded together because the woods are so similar. On that note, it's definitely not a Douglas either for largely the same reasons.


I'm not terribly familiar with most of the True Firs (Grand, Noble, Amabilis etc.), the only one I encounter here is Subalpine Fir and that log is definitely NOT one. It's possible it's a Silver/Amabilis Fir though - the ecology is right, and Amabilis is graded together with Hemlock because the woods have similar strength and appearance characteristics. Having never seen one closer than at the side of the highway as I drive by though, I can't say for sure. Nor have I ever encountered any of the True Cedars, so I can't help with those either.

Get me a nice smooth cut (or better yet planed) board from that stuff and I can tell you if it's Hemlock or not, especially if there are some knots. Hemlock does have what I consider a fairly pleasant odor; others can't stand it, so I wouldn't recommend putting too much stock in the smell description to make it a significant determining factor. Mind you, Subalpine Fir doesn't bother me much either and I quite like it once it's been through the kiln, but it comes by its "cat piss wood" moniker honestly.



mtngun said:


> The orange color crosses several rings. If it were sapwood, wouldn't it be parallel to the rings ? I'm thinking it is a stain.




It is a stain; it's just the sap oxidizing as it's exposed to air. The transition from active sapwood to heartwood _usually_ follows the growth rings but it doesn't necessarily have to, especially on an irregular, fluted piece from near the stump like this appears to be. Since the cells receive their nourishment vertically, there's nothing saying that a sapwood cell must die and become inactive just because its lateral neighbor does. If it's still needed to deliver food to the crown of the tree it'll remain active. If you were to cut through half the diameter of a tree, the sapwood below the cut will die just the same as above it, because there will be nothing to draw the sap up through it anymore. Like punching a hole in the middle of a straw - you can't even suck your beverage up as far as the hole, let alone above it to your mouth.


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## 820wards (Apr 24, 2010)

Daninvan said:


> A bunch of these logs showed up at the cutting area recently. I need some help figuring out what wood it is.
> 
> Dan,
> My daughter the wildlife biologist told me to send you this link.
> ...


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## BC WetCoast (Apr 24, 2010)

Western hemlock (Tsuga heterophylla).

I can tell by the bark texture, but that's just from looking at thousands of them. The purple inner bark is indicative though. Heart rot is very common as well.

That sucker probably weighs 150 lbs. I pity the groundie who had to manhandle that beast (probably out of someone's backyard).

Which company's yard did it come from?


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## RPM (Apr 24, 2010)

The only true firs one would find inVancouver would be Grand fir- _Abies grandis_. The other true firs inthe Vancouver area, but occuring at higher elevations (North Shore mountains - Grouse / Cypress Mtns.) are as Brad mentioned _A. amabilis _and _A. lasiocarpa_ - which smells like cat piss when cut and dry.

I'd maybe through a vote for Grand fir behind the Hemlock. I know that the smell is oftena good inidcator but until AS gets a scratch and sniff method on the site we will just have to go with your description. Obviously, foliage and fruiting bodies (cones) are always the best definitive ID tool.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 24, 2010)

Yep if the cones hang towards the ground, it's Hemlock; if they point to the sky it's one of the Firs.


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## Daninvan (Apr 24, 2010)

OK I went down and took a few pictures this morning. Unfortunately it had been raining so everything looks a bit different than it does dry.

First let me thank everyone who has thrown suggestions into the ring. I'm learning a lot digging up info the different trees.

I am pretty sure it is not a pine, the bark is not pine like at all. Also, while the only true firs native to this area are as RPM stated, this is not necessarily a native tree. It is without a doubt a city tree from a public park or boulevard, so could be native to any temperate region of the world.

First are some more shots of the bark. The first two are pretty wet, the third one is mostly dry.
















Here's a shot of the end grain, I scrubbed it a bit with a plane so you can see that the reddish stain on the sapwood is just that. The heartwood is on the left, the lighter sapwood is revealed where the stain is planed off in the middle, and the stained sapwood is on the right.






Here are a couple up close shots of the end grain that I cleaned with a sharp block plane. I am not an end grain reading expert, and the fact that the wood is wet seems to make it more difficult (at least to me!). The growth rings are about 1/2" apart. The plane marks are at about 45 degrees to the growth rings, which are more or less vertical in the pictures.











One other feature of this tree that I failed to mention last time was that the branches are huge relative to the size of the tree. You can see in the first shot that the branch is close to half the size of the trunk, and it is growing straight out at 90 degrees from the trunk.


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## RPM (Apr 24, 2010)

Mystery wood .... With branches like that are you sure its a conifer? There doesn't seem to be a lot differentiation between the spring and summer wood on the growth rings?


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## Daninvan (Apr 24, 2010)

You are right, it could be a non conifer. It was mainly the pungent smell that made me think it was a conifer and I kind of locked into that thinking. 

There are some needles stuck in the bark in various places but that is not a definitive sign for sure! Also, I could not see any sign of pores in the end grain. Hardwoods have pores and softwoods don't. But again, not definitive, they could be hard to discern as the wood is wet, or just too small to observe in the photos. (I also can't really tell if there are any resin canals either.)

Dan


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## komatsuvarna (Apr 24, 2010)

The bark does kinda look like hemlock, but im not so sure thats what you have.:dunno:


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## smithie55 (Apr 24, 2010)

Judging by the first photo I would guess that tree was some where between 55 and 80 years old.
I know that with some species the bark can go through some major transformations with age.
The close up photos of the grain make me think it maybe a variety of Cypress, all though the bark doesn't necessarily support that.


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## smithie55 (Apr 24, 2010)

Found this picture of a Northern Hemlock
You guys maybe right.


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## derwoodii (Apr 24, 2010)

rbtree said:


> could be cedrus...deodar or possibly atlantica



I reckon as above. Cut and smell the noodles, kerf. Cedrus deodar or Cedrus libani has a fragrant balm.


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## guitarborist (Apr 24, 2010)

Did it come out of the woods or was it an urban tree? If it is an urban tree my guess is a Blue Spruce from the bark, the wood color and the large growth rings.


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## Daninvan (Apr 24, 2010)

This one looks like it has pretty similar bark to me.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/126162/

Deodar cedar


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## RPM (Apr 24, 2010)

Slice a cookie off of it and go up to UBC and see if they are running any summer forestry courses (Dendrology). Its been a long time since I went there so don't know who any of the new profs are, but someone in the Forestry Dept. would be able to find out who to talk to.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 25, 2010)

That pic of the block with the bark removed really looks like Hemlock to me. For one, Hemlock bark does tend to come off rather easily like that. But then again, so do some of the True Firs. The other thing that sticks out to me is the small deep-purple-almost-black bark inclusions at the near side of the piece in the barkless photo, in the crotchwood where the big branch met the trunk. Hemlock is notorious for these blackish inclusions, and more often, black mineral streaks and lines in the wood which can be quite beautiful. Hemlock also tends to have very dark, almost black knots.

Rip that piece in half freehand with a saw and let's see what you've got in there!

Some gov.bc.ca info on Western Hemlock:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/documents/treebook/westernhemlock.htm



RPM said:


> Mystery wood .... With branches like that are you sure its a conifer? There doesn't seem to be a lot differentiation between the spring and summer wood on the growth rings?



This only goes to support the Hemlock theory IMO. The main reason that Hemlock is so favored for heavy-wear uses (flooring, stair treads, trim/molding, window and door frames, handrails and newel posts...) is that in addition to its being fairly hard, there is a comparatively small difference between the hardness and durability of the springwood vs. summerwood (known as an "even grain" in grading circles). If you were to put a Pine or D. Fir board down for a stair tread, in a few years you'll have very distinct ridges where the softer springwood has worn away leaving the harder summerwood proud from the surface of the board. With Hemlock this effect is significantly reduced.

As per the branch size, Hemlocks have what is called a "drooping leader" top due to the way their needles are arranged flatly on their branches. On Spruce, Pine, and Douglas Fir, the needles are radially arranged and can collect light from any direction, but Hemlocks, along with Yews and many Cedars etc., have needles arranged in a flat "spray" pattern and only collect light for photosynthesis effectively on one side. Thus, the top tends to droop over so it faces the sun. This makes these trees very susceptible to broken tops due to wind or heavy snow. If a top breaks out at a young enough age, the highest branch(es) will take over as the new top, as in most trees, sometimes resulting in some really gnarly tops and large and irregular limbs. Not saying that's the case here for sure though.


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## rayvil01 (Apr 25, 2010)

A friend gave me some Hemlock this past summer from West Virginia. It sure looks like your wood there. 

Interesting wood. Save the scraps for starting the wood stove.


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## RPM (Apr 25, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> That pic of the block with the bark removed really looks like Hemlock to me. For one, Hemlock bark does tend to come off rather easily like that. But then again, so do some of the True Firs. The other thing that sticks out to me is the small deep-purple-almost-black bark inclusions at the near side of the piece in the barkless photo, in the crotchwood where the big branch met the trunk. Hemlock is notorious for these blackish inclusions, and more often, black mineral streaks and lines in the wood which can be quite beautiful. Hemlock also tends to have very dark, almost black knots.
> 
> Rip that piece in half freehand with a saw and let's see what you've got in there!
> 
> ...



Hemlock is still my first vote but the size of that limb is odd. I've seen lots of coastal old growth Doug-fir with limbs like that where the top has been blown off and another leader or side branch has taken off but htis one looks huge. And the size of the growth rings - its an urban tree so lots of water and fertilizer no doubt. I guess that is what is puting that bit of doubt in my head, but agian it is an urban tree.


For those not familiar with where we are talking about - the tree chunk in discussion is from Vancouver BC about a 100 miles north of Seattle.


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## Daninvan (Apr 25, 2010)

Well I can sense a tidal wave of opinion for hemlock! But I am still not so sure. 

I went down this morning and cut a piece up. It was disappointing inside with the rot extending further in than I had expected, plus some hidden knots that made the amount of useful wood so small as to be not worthwhile. Then it started raining, so I took that as as sign to snap a few pictures and head home. 






Close up of the grain in the cut.






The wood has an amazing fragrance, strong and very pleasant. Mildly spicey, but with undercurrents of peach and mango. Sounds kind of like a wine tasting!

I have cut deodar cedar before and it sure smells like this one does. That is still my vote. I am hoping to head down Mon or Tue and go at a better (fewer knots) piece. It would be great to get a bunch of QS planks, with the aroma they would be perfect for drawer bottoms or the backs of cabinets. 

I like the suggestion of taking a piece to UBC, and having them check it out, I will try to do that later in the week. Even if they can't give me a definitive answer, I am sure that they can at least tell me with confidence if it is hemlock or not.

Dan


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## MGoodwin (Apr 26, 2010)

*The limbs dont add up!*

I will be honest, I havent read through all of the details, but the color of the heart wood and sap wood, bark thickness, and limb size, looks an awful like big leaf western maple. I cant think of too many trees that routinely carry limbs of that size relative to the trunk. Just a thought .


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## Hddnis (Apr 26, 2010)

rbtree said:


> could be cedrus...deodar or possibly atlantica




I'll go with atlantica. I've cut many of them that had that exact bark, also several with the smoother bark. I don't know why some are rough and other smooth, but one row of twelve I cut was almost equally mixed. On another job there were twenty-one that all had the smoother bark. 



Mr. HE


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## Daninvan (Apr 26, 2010)

Well I was down there today cutting up one of the rounds into QS boards and a truck comes by to drop off some pine. I was talking to the guy and he says he was the one who took the big mystery conifer down from a yard in south Van. 

And he said it was . . . (drum roll please) . . .deodar cedar. 

Anyways I got all the deodar cedar I am likely to need for a while now!

Thanks to everyone who helped with the suggestions.

Dan


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## RPM (Apr 26, 2010)

Daninvan said:


> Well I was down there today cutting up one of the rounds into QS boards and a truck comes by to drop off some pine. I was talking to the guy and he says he was the one who took the big mystery conifer down from a yard in south Van.
> 
> And he said it was . . . (drum roll please) . . .deodar cedar.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm .... deodar cedar. Cedar ...??? I just looked at the trunk photos again (reason for the edit) and would not have ever guessed by the pictures and would have bet more beer that it wasn't. Forester I am .... urban forester not. 

Nice to know though!


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## Daninvan (Apr 26, 2010)

It was a tricky one to get. 

The woods we call "cedar" in Canada and the US are not really true cedars (genus cedrus) at all. We are used to the typical strippy bark and flattened sprays for foliage on the trees we call cedar - yellow cedar, red cedar, Port Orford cedar, etc. These are not classified botanically as cedars, they are in other genuses.

The true cedars are only three - deodar, Atlas, and Lebanon. 

Dan


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## Brmorgan (Apr 26, 2010)

Glad you got it figured out. I've never even seen one of those trees other than in books etc., so I'm glad to have learned something too.

Our native Cedars are actually all Cypresses of one sort or another, along with the Junipers.

One thing I do know about the True Cedars is that their cones point upwards to the sky as well, just like the True Firs.


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## RPM (Apr 26, 2010)

Forestry 101 - Dendrology all over again (about 20 yrs). I guess I have the blinders on when it comes to what a real cedar is. Right now cedar is red as in Western red cedar and whether or not it will make lumber, shake / shingle or poles. . Its the only species really paying the bills at the moment. 

Glad you are able to score some lumber out of it rather than going to landfill or burn pile. Pictures?


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## Hddnis (Apr 26, 2010)

Here's some pics of atlantica and deodara. You can see how close they are. The bark you have looks more like atlantica to me, but it does vary a bit.


cedrus atlantica





atlantica bark





atlantica cones







Mr. HE


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## Hddnis (Apr 26, 2010)

cedrus deodara





deodara bark





deodara cones






Mr. HE


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## Hddnis (Apr 26, 2010)

Here is hemlock, also very similar at least as far as the bark goes. The wood itself, in my experience, does not have a smell like cedar and is a bit lighter shade.

tsuga heterophylla





heterophylla bark





heterophylla cones






Mr. HE


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## jimdad07 (Apr 26, 2010)

It looks a lot like the hemlock bark that I spend most of my hunting season staring at. I vote hemlock.


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## jimdad07 (Apr 26, 2010)

What I should have said was "yeah, I read the rest of the posts instead of skipping to the end to put my two cents in" Good job on finding out what it is, good information on the cedars too.
Jim


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## smithie55 (Apr 26, 2010)

That was fun
Good post
Glad you found out what it was


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## DaltonPaull (Apr 26, 2010)

has anyone here ever worked with deodar cedar wood? I've been curious to find out if it's very useful.


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## BC WetCoast (Apr 27, 2010)

It's a deodora cedar only if the guy who cut it down, knew what it was (and I know many tree service guys who would get it wrong). Deodoras get heavy limbs like that, (we took one down today like that), but so do hemlocks that have been topped in the past and have grown with a series of new tops (deodoras do this too). The bit of heart rot would indicate that this piece was near the topping cut.


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## Daninvan (Apr 27, 2010)

It's true, the guy who cut it down may not have had it correct either. 

I would also agree with Hddnis that the picture he posted of atlantica (Atlas cedar) looks a lot like my specimen.

I should also have mentioned that one of the city tree trimmers also came by today, looked at it for quite a while (he's a city guy!) and also identified it as deodar. He was unsure where it came from since he claimed the city doesn't have any deodars this big. 

Anyways I am pretty sure it is deodar, I agree there is a chance it is atlantica. Just for fun I might take a piece out to UBC one day and see if they can settle it for us definitively.

Dan


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## BlueRider (Apr 27, 2010)

DaltonPaull said:


> has anyone here ever worked with deodar cedar wood? I've been curious to find out if it's very useful.



I have a couple hundred bf in the shop right now that I am using for exterior trim on my house. I got it from a friend and it is alrerady dry so I can't give any info on milling it. judging from the pieces I have it looks like it dries easily with little or no degrade. It planes nicely and does not get the compression seperation when planing flat grain that hemlock and doug fir can be prone to. It also takes router details nicely. I plan on painting all the trim and it looks like it will take paint well, no sap or pitch pockets to bleed through.

I am looking forward to having some left over bits to play with. I have experimented with a bit of the scrap and it does not seem to carve well. I was hopeing it might carve like port orford cypress but it doesen't.


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## Greener (Apr 2, 2011)

I am about 90 percent it is deodor (atlas family) cedar, also know as white cedar. When they season, they turn an orangish color and have a sweet/dry smell. The bark is too rough/rigid for spruce or hemlock but not deep or wide enough ridges to be fir. I have cut a few, but have cut many spruce and fir. I'd guess on Atlas/deodor cedar. It is hardwood.


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## BC_Logger (Apr 2, 2011)

its a deodar and from the impressive ring growth likely second growth

can I ask where the log came from in Bc ?


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## Daninvan (Apr 2, 2011)

That tree was a yard tree from a private house somewhere in south Vancouver. Deodar is not a common tree around here. I only know of a handful myself, but now I have milled up three, so I guess there must be more than I had thought. I am not sure that the concept of 'second growth' applies to non-native species planted in city gardens and parks - I thought it only applied to where original forests had been cut down and new forests of native species grew in their place?

Greener, there definitely is a 'dry' component to the smell of deodar, glad I am not the only one who sense that! That aspect of the smell kind of reminds me of a similar characteristic in the smell of Tennessee cedar, the cedar that is used to line cedar chests. But I am pretty sure that Deodar cedar is a softwood not a hardwood.

Dan


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## Greener (Apr 3, 2011)

rbtree said:


> could be cedrus...deodar or possibly atlantica



What is atlantica? Just curious.


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## Greener (Apr 3, 2011)

Daninvan said:


> That tree was a yard tree from a private house somewhere in south Vancouver. Deodar is not a common tree around here. I only know of a handful myself, but now I have milled up three, so I guess there must be more than I had thought. I am not sure that the concept of 'second growth' applies to non-native species planted in city gardens and parks - I thought it only applied to where original forests had been cut down and new forests of native species grew in their place?
> 
> Greener, there definitely is a 'dry' component to the smell of deodar, glad I am not the only one who sense that! That aspect of the smell kind of reminds me of a similar characteristic in the smell of Tennessee cedar, the cedar that is used to line cedar chests. But I am pretty sure that Deodar cedar is a softwood not a hardwood.
> 
> Dan



Dan, you may be right on the softwood issues. I just know it is tightgrained and bug/rot resistant usually.


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## northwest coast (Apr 14, 2011)

fun, informative post, i would have said hemlock, but i am not so familiar with real cedar.


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## Gavman (Sep 6, 2012)

northwest coast said:


> fun, informative post, i would have said hemlock, but i am not so familiar with real cedar.



Have to agree there and nobody got upset either ha ha


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