# Snagfalling



## forestryworks (Dec 8, 2008)

had five good sized oaks marked back in the summer (18" DBH + and 25-50ft. tall) they've still got sound wood in them so they will be going for firewood






this tree will be seen on youtube soon





double - each was around 19" DBH





Silhouette of the doubles





first stump - double on the right





facing up the left double





First try... too shallow, recut





better





stump


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## Jacob J. (Dec 8, 2008)

Looking good.


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## forestryworks (Dec 8, 2008)

thanks


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## RPM (Dec 8, 2008)

You're first undercut (photo labeled -first try) was fine - not too shallow. A steeper cut will drop the butt right at the base of the stump - a shallower cut will close quicker and tend to lift / launch the butt more. And try to watch how your holding wood - a little skinny on the first and perfect on the second.Thats the way conifers drop anyways - haven't done too much hardwood falling. I'm sure there will be other opinions.

Looks good anyways :greenchainsaw:


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## smokechase II (Dec 9, 2008)

*Cuts looked fine.*

There could be a bunch of back-cut height, holding wood thickness measurement dissections.

You're at least OK, maybe pretty good.


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## njforestfire (Dec 9, 2008)

Cuts looked pretty good. Good amont of firewood there - looks like red oak...???


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## njforestfire (Dec 9, 2008)

But the bark doesn't look like red oak....I can tell by the smell of the wood!! Love that smell!


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## forestryworks (Dec 9, 2008)

njforestfire said:


> Cuts looked pretty good. Good amont of firewood there - looks like red oak...???



white oak (post oak)


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## njforestfire (Dec 9, 2008)

Where in Texas are you forestryworks? Been to Texarkana - loved it down there!


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## 056 kid (Dec 9, 2008)

Cuts look good. Mabe a little too much wood on the second one. had she been green she maay have popped on ya!


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## joesawer (Dec 11, 2008)

Looks good.
That vine on the second tree makes me itch just looking at it. 
Make sure you cut throught a vine like that before your back cut, as I have had them swing trees way out of the lay before.


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## Bushler (Dec 11, 2008)

Looks good to me. Best to clean out your faces and never use a dutchman or stepped face on a snag. The jolt to the stem when it sets down can cause a rotten top to come down around your ears. I always try to fall snags directly or very slightly quartered to the lean, with a nice clean face.

Snags are dangerous.


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## forestryworks (Dec 12, 2008)

*some more pics*

good stumps and bad stumps, or end of the day stumps















fiber pull - see the hole in the hinge? it made that distinctive fiber pull noise too


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## hammerlogging (Dec 12, 2008)

FW, you're never going to get the same behavior out of standing dead as you will with green wood. Nor will all standing dead behave the same, some hinges will behave like they're not even there. Don't try and pull them too far, and always watch for those dead tops breaking out and falling toward you. That said, by the look of your stumps, you know how to cut, which is a good thing.


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## slowp (Dec 12, 2008)

Fiber pulls ok if the spikey things are on the log. No deduction. That screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee noise was common when they used to cut the big stuff here. Should you ever cut for a rigging crew, it is a good thing to cut the spikes off. Courtesy. A guy bled to death when he fell on some of them. After that, the people in charge started having the fallers cut those off. 

Limbing too. A guy took a bad tumble last week. I was down with him. He forgot his calks and slipped, went flying up in the air and came down partly on the log. After the cussing and answering our yells of YOU OK, he thanked his son for flush cutting the limbs. He knows of a guy who was paralyzed from the waist down when he landed with his back on a stob. Just nice and safe things to think about. I like the way you seem to listen to other folks on this site. Keep on with it.


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## Burvol (Dec 12, 2008)

I know, everyone here loves a good round of "stump bashing", or "why did you do this, or that". But you you know what? You got the damn things down, good job. There are so many variables to cutting timber (confiers) and many folks here that are chainsaw nuts have no idea. One piece of advice I will say to all. If you want great control, wood pull out of the stump rather than the log, and the ability to saw a corner off accidentally or whatever, then the step is for you. A raised back cut. They're called a step up here anyway. They always go on big timber (3 foot plus) with me, every time. The difference is night and day for control and wood pull. It also elimintates root pull. The tree is locked down until it's ready to go. The bigger the tree, the bigger the step.


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## slowp (Dec 12, 2008)

Perhaps we could call it Stumpology?


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## joesawer (Dec 12, 2008)

I like the stumps. That will work for me.
Slowp is right, splinters and sharp stobs (pigs ears) are never good for those who come after.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 13, 2008)

Burvol said:


> A raised back cut. They're called a step up here anyway. They always go on big timber (3 foot plus) with me, every time. The difference is night and day for control and wood pull. It also elimintates root pull. The tree is locked down until it's ready to go. The bigger the tree, the bigger the step.



I can't do that down here, especially on the straight-falling jobs. I have to leave the butts slicked off. The mechanics of it work well and that's what we teach to firefighters though.


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## Burvol (Dec 13, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> I can't do that down here, especially on the straight-falling jobs. I have to leave the butts slicked off. The mechanics of it work well and that's what we teach to firefighters though.



I have to flush butts too, just flush em up with the saw. Not much difference in sawing a sliver off or sawing a sliver off with an extra in or two of wood in my opinion.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 13, 2008)

Burvol said:


> I have to flush butts too, just flush em up with the saw. Not much difference in sawing a sliver off or sawing a sliver off with an extra in or two of wood in my opinion.



True, but when you're straight falling and trying to get 250-300 stems on the ground in six hours, every step you save yourself counts big. Often times we stick with 'em on the stump and they launch already slicked off.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> True, but when you're straight falling and trying to get 250-300 stems on the ground in six hours, every step you save yourself counts big. Often times we stick with 'em on the stump and they launch already slicked off.



250 in 6 hours is... 41 trees an hour - that's gettin' it done


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## Jacob J. (Dec 13, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> 250 in 6 hours is... 41 trees an hour - that's gettin' it done



It is, and try that in a Madrone patch...good Lord that's miserable. Madrone in August cuts like glass. You're swapping out chains every 90 minutes.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

and thus, there it is, the golden answer for why saws are woods ported


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## Metals406 (Dec 13, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> and thus, there it is, the golden answer for why saws are woods ported



Your stumps look good to me... But I didn't see an angled back-cut... You should work on that. 

I'd like to cut hardwood sometime... Just to see how it cuts. We don't have any here to try... Unless you're cutting in the city limits, and those were planted around the turn of the century along the road systems. They don't come down very often, and when they do, guys fight over the wood. lol


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## treejunkie13 (Dec 13, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Your stumps look good to me... But I didn't see an angled back-cut... You should work on that.
> 
> I'd like to cut hardwood sometime... Just to see how it cuts. We don't have any here to try... Unless you're cutting in the city limits, and those were planted around the turn of the century along the road systems. They don't come down very often, and when they do, guys fight over the wood. lol



I have 2 fess that I'll stick with the hard wood, we've got the Hemlocks, Spruce, White Pine, and other conifers here also, Pretty good sized stuff 2, and I pretty much don't care 4 cutting them up. I do like how fast they can b sawed up though, hot knife and butter, compared 2 hardwood.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

when i cut in colorado over the summer, i had to change my thinking and visual perception of lean in softwoods versus hardwoods, which is what i've been trained and learning on.

also, like treejunkie said, the difference in the cut between hardwoods and softwoods is very obvious, you can feel it to. keep in mind i went from cuttin' dead oak bleached white by the sun, to beetle killed lodgepole pine. for the first hour or so on my first day i had a few head spins finding the lean - but i always had a wedge in the backcut.

i also had a headache as we were at 9200ft. elevation - a change of 8,000ft from two days before when i left tx.


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## treejunkie13 (Dec 13, 2008)

njforestfire said:


> But the bark doesn't look like red oak....I can tell by the smell of the wood!! Love that smell!



U like that smell? I can't say that I like the smell as much as I like stopping somewhere after cutting on Oak all day and hearing someone say "who stepped in the pile of chit?" specially when u bore into a goosed out stump full of water and soak ur leg, yummy! It's hard 2 ride home with yourself. LOL


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## Metals406 (Dec 13, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> when i cut in colorado over the summer, i had to change my thinking and visual perception of lean in softwoods versus hardwoods, which is what i've been trained and learning on.
> 
> also, like treejunkie said, the difference in the cut between hardwoods and softwoods is very obvious, you can feel it to. keep in mind i went from cuttin' dead oak bleached white by the sun, to beetle killed lodgepole pine. for the first hour or so on my first day i had a few head spins finding the lean - but i always had a wedge in the backcut.
> 
> i also had a headache as we were at 9200ft. elevation - a change of 8,000ft from two days before when i left tx.



Elevation sickness is the suck! I imagine reading the lean on hardwoods would be a challenge for me... Conifers are no problem. Hardwoods have a waaay different weight distribution I'm sure.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Elevation sickness is the suck! I imagine reading the lean on hardwoods would be a challenge for me... Conifers are no problem. Hardwoods have a waaay different weight distribution I'm sure.



yeah, sometimes you'll have two leans
plus the weight distribution of the crown
it'll make you think twice, or three times before you start your undercut
otherwise, hangup or skybound and then you'll wish you had a jack

in terms of lean, i found the conifers to be a little more straightforward
at the outset than hardwoods

what do you think, metals?


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## davidsparks (Dec 13, 2008)

wish my stumps looked that good. Post oak is a great firewood. Where you at is this great state forestry works?


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## hammerlogging (Dec 13, 2008)

The little production softwood I've cut, always pleased with the way you can pull them around, definately different weight distribution. And in the HW, wintertime and summertime is a big difference due to crown weight changes.

Lets see, asymetical form, heavy tops, massive root flare, sometimes with an awful lot of tension, yes, its quite enjoyable to cut, takes a fair bit of evaluation to do it well. Many species with different specs, behaviors, and value for future timber, wildlife, etc. management. And yes, you can bore in and find 100 gal. of awful tannin enriched stink water, even on a tree thats just wind shook and not even hollow. And you'll let it all drain out, shove your saw in again and cut and another burst will flow out. Gets all over your legs/chaps. I read that about the smell of red oak, some of which old timers around parts call piss oak. To each his own....

I'll let you know that the butt cut felling procedure shown in tree junkies pics are, shall we say, the penultimate textbook fashion of felling a valuable large diameter HW. That said, I'd like to point out that we don't do this whittling all the time, although the open face, bore cuts, and wedges are typical, maybe cut a lsice off the root flare once shes on the ground. I'd also like to point out that thats a hell of a cherry he's pictured with. $. 

Tree junkie, are you working with self loader trucks? A luxury rare at best further south.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

davidsparks said:


> wish my stumps looked that good. Post oak is a great firewood. Where you at is this great state forestry works?



practice makes perfect. you gotta do it everday and really work at it.
not that mine are perfect, i still got alot to learn if i wanna even think about
doing it for a living. 

i'm northwest of you by about 90 miles, headed towards wichita falls


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## davidsparks (Dec 13, 2008)

We cut lots of post oak at my buddies place outside Coalgate, OK. Its hard to get a stump like that because anything over about 10 inches around is hollow or rotten in the middle.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

davidsparks said:


> We cut lots of post oak at my buddies place outside Coalgate, OK. Its hard to get a stump like that because anything over about 10 inches around is hollow or rotten in the middle.



must be some bad post oak then

most of the post i cut is good stuff, dead or green

i only get into rot and hollow when i cut blackjack


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## Burvol (Dec 13, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> It is, and try that in a Madrone patch...good Lord that's miserable. Madrone in August cuts like glass. You're swapping out chains every 90 minutes.



Tree lengthing Doug Fir besides Madrone? I have done some, quite a bit really in the past, bucking one length off the big stuff. I've been fortunate enough to cut some really nice timber in my whole carreer. Not much handfalling in these parts if there's not a lot of nice wood, even tower ground.


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## treejunkie13 (Dec 13, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> I'd also like to point out that thats a hell of a cherry he's pictured with. $.
> 
> Tree junkie, are you working with self loader trucks? A luxury rare at best further south.



That cherry was pretty sweet, that was on state game lands (love the way that they manage their land) had quite a few beauties on that piece, took 2 little pics though. That butt left the landing @32' which is pretty rare around here, veneer logs make strange things happen. Wasn't forked, yet had a broad top 2 it, so I climbed it and trimmed it up a bit 4 where I wanted 2 lay it.

Yes our trucks are 99% self loaders, 24' bunks, tri-axle, there r a few tractor trailers that haul tree length but they 2 travel with a loader. and yes r truck drivers cry alot.

I'll get some truck pics up soon...


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## hammerlogging (Dec 14, 2008)

treejunkie13 said:


> That cherry was pretty sweet, that was on state game lands (love the way that they manage their land) had quite a few beauties on that piece, took 2 little pics though. That butt left the landing @32' which is pretty rare around here, veneer logs make strange things happen. Wasn't forked, yet had a broad top 2 it, so I climbed it and trimmed it up a bit 4 where I wanted 2 lay it.
> 
> Yes our trucks are 99% self loaders, 24' bunks, tri-axle, there r a few tractor trailers that haul tree length but they 2 travel with a loader. and yes r truck drivers cry alot.
> 
> I'll get some truck pics up soon...



TJ- the veneer buyer probably just wanted it around the log yard for a while, a trophy. For others to drool over--- "How would you buck this up?" rolling out as anyone took a glance at it. I've never seen 32' trucked off a landing in the east, except pulp.


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## treejunkie13 (Dec 14, 2008)

Hammer, the truck got filled and it laid up top, next 2 the grapple boom, little over the cab, little out the back, then a sneeky ride in.


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## treejunkie13 (Dec 14, 2008)

Bucking, well I always stop @ defect, then buck up the rest, the $ men can whack it where they want.


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