# noobie looking for small sawing devices advice



## gemniii (Aug 15, 2009)

Looking for recommendations, I've searched and read several newbie threads, but many are years old and none seemed to address my portability issues.

Overall objective - 
Primarily want to cut small timber into boards for own use building sheds etc. over my parcels of land.

Resources on hand - 
24HP Kubota tractor w/ FEL and BH
Stihl 21
18' ft Hudson 12 ton trailer
Ford 7.3 diesel to haul it all
about 500 acres of forest land in ms. and vt. in about 7 different tracts
Good knowledge of forestry, cutting trees under 40" DBH

What I know I'll need -
Much bigger cs like a 70CC
some type of cs mill to slab logs for below
some type of band saw like a Norwood Lumberlite

Discussion -
What I'd really like to do is get my equipment set up so it'll all fit on my trailer but.
I've got lots of big trees that are scattered because prior logging (30 yrs) left them standing and they need to be taken down. I want to put in food plots and trees need to be taken down. I need to build trails, trees need to be taken down. 
No commercial logger wants to come in and do this piecemeal stuff. I do have commercial firms logging some of my tracts on occasion.
I'm going to be retired and have the time and energy to do it for about 10 or 20 years.
I'm the type that gets up at dawn looking for things to do.

So I'd like some of your professional knowledge on a good mix of equipment.

From reading here I think about a 6hp saw to fell
w/ an Alaskan, mini-mill or similar to square off
and a Lumberlite or similar to cut lumber down to sizes to build sheds, decks, etc.

I'm looking at getting the bigger saw and square off piece soon to learn how to use it well before I get the Lumberlite or similar.

I'd like to keep the costs under $6K US.

thanks in advance (tia).


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## BobL (Aug 15, 2009)

It sounds like you are already well on the way to knowing what you are after. 

With saws, milling is very hard on saws but if you stick to known brands you will at least get maximum reliability. You will need a bit more than 70cc if you want a 6 HP from a stock saw and overly modifying saws for milling is not advisable. You don't say how big your trees are but if they are more than 24" in diameter and you are just squaring and breaking logs for lumberite I'd be looking at a 90+cc CS as a minimum.

As far as mills go, unless you want to "roll yer own" stick with known brands and you will be OK.


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## mtngun (Aug 15, 2009)

PPE -- chaps and steel toe boots, chainsaw boots better. It is recommended to wear a hardhat while felling, though I don't bother since I cut mostly blow downs.

Felling and bucking -- For felling and bucking the larger trees, you'll want a 70 cc saw with 24" - 28" bar. Husky 372 or Stihl 440/460. Plastic wedges and a light axe or big hammer for driving wedges. 

Limbing -- "Real" loggers limb with their felling saw, but I'm not a real logger and I much prefer to limb with a 60cc 20" saw. Efco CS62 or Stihl 361. Limbing is an accident prone activity and the smaller saws are easier to control. 

Chain saw milling (optional if you get a bandmill) -- 90+cc saw, Stihl 660/880 or Husky 395/3120. Very expensive if purchased new, and if you get a bandmill, you probably won't use a CSM often. I'd get the bandmill first and procrastinate on the CSM. 

Drying shed -- if you don't already have one, this may be your first project.

End sealer -- anchorseal or Bailey's seal, to reduce checking

What species of trees will you be building with ? I can't offer advice about eastern species, but not all species make good building materials. 

For me, part of the learning experience in this milling hobby has been learning about my local species, how to identify them, what each species does well or doesn't do well, how to dry the lumber so it doesn't warp and check, etc..


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## gemniii (Aug 15, 2009)

Thanks for the input.

I thought PPE was like oil, gas, ropes, etc. Can't operate without it.

I was hoping a Stihl 460 class machine would do, both for felling and pre-bandsaw. And I was planning on using the 21 for limbing etc.

What about mills comparable to the lumberlite?


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## BobL (Aug 15, 2009)

mtngun said:


> PPE -- chaps and steel toe boots, chainsaw boots better. It is recommended to wear a hardhat. . . .


Yep agree, also quality ear muffs and a good visor too!



gemniii said:


> I was hoping a Stihl 460 class machine would do, both for felling and pre-bandsaw. And I was planning on using the 21 for limbing etc.


How big are the logs?


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## gemniii (Aug 16, 2009)

BobL said:


> Yep agree, also quality ear muffs and a good visor too!
> 
> 
> How big are the logs?


99% of the logs in Ms are under 30" DBH w/ bark,the ones in Vt are larger, but can be modified and fewer, 50-50 hardwood/softwood.

As I spend more and more hours reading here I'm fighting with the tradeoffs of CSM vs Ripsaw vs Lumberlite.

I know I need the bigger saw so I'm thinking to do it in stages:
Stage 1.
Stihl 460 or equal with the longest bar I can afford ($900), 
A mini-mill ($100) 
A good sharpener (?$150?)

Stage 2.
a Lumberlite 24 ($3,000 at Forestry Suppliers)
Bed extension ($150)
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=3802

I really like the concept of the Ripsaw but with a base price of $1600 plus perhaps another powerhead and a carriage it's about the same price as a base Lumberlite.

For my purposes I'm leaning towards a moderately portable solution. 

Thanks people, and further suggestions welcome.


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## SilverBox (Aug 16, 2009)

My first bigger saw a Solo 681 I used for cuttin and for milling, but I realized that it was too much of a pain putting it in and out of the mill so I picked up a used Husky 394, you might want to keep your eye out for bigger husky/stihl saws used in good shape on your local craigslists. 

Stihl 660/880 (newer) 70/90 (older) or Husky 394/395/3120.

I almost pulled the trigger on the big dolmar/solo (its identical) Dolmar 9010/Solo 694. Its reputed to be good quality (german) and at 94cc it should be equal to the 395 or 660. Also the bar mount for the dolmar/solo is the same as Husky, whereas Stihl uses a different mount. Once you own a selection of bars and chains, it makes it a big factor in your choice of saw.


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## Brmorgan (Aug 16, 2009)

Go used on the saw! Especially if you figure it won't see a whole lot of use once the bandmill is up and running. Buying a new saw for milling just doesn't seem economical to me since you'll be running it hard (especially if you're going to use a ~75cc saw in 30" wood) and it won't look new for long anyway. Let someone else lose the bulk of the depreciation money.

Otherwise it sounds like you've got a good head start as far as knowing what you want/need. Have fun & stay safe.


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## BobL (Aug 16, 2009)

gemniii said:


> 99% of the logs in Ms are under 30" DBH w/ bark,the ones in Vt are larger, but can be modified and fewer, 50-50 hardwood/softwood.



If 50% or more of the logs are greater thaN 24" in diameter I'd be looking at a used 90cc saw and a standard alaskan rather than a minimill.


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## mtngun (Aug 17, 2009)

What are you planning to build with the "Stage 1" equipment ?

Stud frame or timberframe ? 

Yes, you'll need to get the 460 or something similar first thing, so you can fell those trees. No argument there. 

I suspect that after you've spent a few days making boards with the 460 and a mini-mill, you'll decide you are ready for that "stage 2" bandmill , but ...... you need the felling saw regardless, and a mini-mill doesn't cost much, so no harm in giving it a whirl.

I re-read your original post and wondered how you are going to skid the logs and load them on the bandmill ? 24hp Kubota ? That's not very big, is it ? Will it be able to pick up the larger logs ???? Uh ..... I don't think so. I'm not even sure it will skid the big ones.

It will depend on your terrain, so you be the judge, but in my part of the country, you need heavy equipment to do any serious logging. One of my neighbors uses a large 4wd Kubota with a grapple and a logging winch. Several neighbors have dozers.

That's why I don't have a bandmill -- because I don't have a way to bring logs to the mill. I bring an Alaskan mill to the logs, instead. It works, but it is much slower and much more tiring than a bandmill.

I guess if your land is flat and if the ground is firm, you could trailer the bandmill up to the logs, and then winch or roll the logs onto the mill ???

Speaking of rolling logs, add a 60" Logrite peavy to your shopping list, if you don't already have one.

It sounds like you are going to have a lot of fun playing -- er, I mean _working_ -- on your land. Keep us posted.


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## gemniii (Aug 17, 2009)

mtngun said:


> What are you planning to build with the "Stage 1" equipment ?
> Stud frame or timberframe ?


Just learning - if anything posts & beams 


mtngun said:


> I re-read your original post and wondered how you are going to skid the logs and load them on the bandmill ? 24hp Kubota ? That's not very big, is it ? Will it be able to pick up the larger logs ???? Uh ..... I don't think so. I'm not even sure it will skid the big ones.


Part of the plan is fixing/building trails throughout the property. If progress is made a 50hp+ tractor is planned.


mtngun said:


> I guess if your land is flat and if the ground is firm, you could trailer the bandmill up to the logs, and then winch or roll the logs onto the mill ???
> 
> Speaking of rolling logs, add a 60" Logrite peavy to your shopping list, if you don't already have one.


Yup

thanks


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## excess650 (Aug 18, 2009)

I would prefer a 660 to a 460 if used for milling. Its a little heavier and more costly at first, but has considerably more power. I use mine on both an Alaskan and with a Mini Mill. Likewise, the Husqvarna 390xp or 395xp.

Being a LM2000 owner, I thought it a much better piece of equipment than the LL24. I did opt for the bed extension, but haven't needed it.


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## gemniii (Oct 2, 2009)

Update


gemniii said:


> As I spend more and more hours reading here I'm fighting with the tradeoffs of CSM vs Ripsaw vs Lumberlite.
> 
> I know I need the bigger saw so I'm thinking to do it in stages:
> Stage 1.
> ...


Well the 460 got tossed out, I've since acquired a new Efco 3600 (bought for $50) and a new John Deere CS62 (won in the raffle here), along with a Northern Tools grinder for $90. Throw in $100 for PPE. Next I will probably get a minimill for cants/beams/posts.
(Remember that my trees are small for the most part and the CS62 is small, only about 4.7 hp http://outdoor-power-equipment.net/chainsaw-gas/efco/162/)
So for stage 1, with the slightly smaller BUT essentially free CS62 I'm about at $300.
So on to


gemniii said:


> Stage 2.
> a Lumberlite 24 ($3,000 at Forestry Suppliers)
> Bed extension ($150)
> http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=3802
> ...


After reading stories about the wonderful joy and pleasure of assembling Norwood's Lumberlite the Ripsaw with another power head is looking better and better for my portable solution.

Does anyone know of other mills in the Ripsaw class and price range?

And again most of my trees I'll be cutting for roads etc. wiil be small < 20"DBH.

thanks


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## BobL (Oct 2, 2009)

gemniii said:


> Well the 460 got tossed out, I've since acquired a new Efco 3600 (bought for $50) and a new John Deere CS62 (won in the raffle here), along with a Northern Tools grinder for $90. Throw in $100 for PPE. Next I will probably get a minimill for cants/beams/posts.
> (Remember that my trees are small for the most part and the CS62 is small, only about 4.7 hp



Sorry to rain on your parade but I would have stuck with the 460 over both the other saws. 
The efco is 35.2cc and at that price is probably a copy efco but 35 cc is not even worth bolting up to any mill
The CS62 is 61 cc?
The 460 is 76.5 cc and even though the CS62 claims the same HP the 460 will have more torque and would be a far better milling saw.
You'll still have to nurse the CS62 even in 20" cuts.
Even for small logs I'd get an alaskan before I'd get a minimill 

If we forget about the 460 comparison it's not a bad learning basic set up.

Cheers


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## gemniii (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks but


BobL said:


> Sorry to rain on your parade but I would have stuck with the 460 over both the other saws.
> The efco is 35.2cc and at that price is probably a copy efco but 35 cc is not even worth bolting up to any mill


No it's a real Efco, real warranty, and the last one the store had since they were discontinuing the line. They had marked it down to $99.95 from $219, and then gave me 50% off and an extra chain. And I never discussed bolting that one or my Stihl 21 up to a mill.


> The CS62 is 61 cc?
> The 460 is 76.5 cc and even though the CS62 claims the same HP the 460 will have more torque and would be a far better milling saw.
> You'll still have to nurse the CS62 even in 20" cuts.
> Even for small logs I'd get an alaskan before I'd get a minimill
> ...


Perhaps you did not read carefully, I paid between zip and nada for the CS62 with 4.7 HP, I won it. Perhaps you did not notice the thread, http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=1735626&postcount=110

And I didn't claim it has the same HP as the 460 (which has 6HP). 

But while trying to save money I see no need to shell out big bucks for another 1.3 HP.

At first I was looking for a two saw plan, my Stihl 21 and a new 460 for CSM. Now I've got a Stihl 21, an Efco 3600 and a JD CS62. So I think I'm covered for two good small saws, one good medium saw.

So:
Does anyone know of other mills in the Ripsaw class and price range?
If you know the Ripsaw you know Efco is not listed as a valid powerhead.

But I really want something highly portable with which I can cut beams and some rough siding from the trees I have to clear. So now I'm thinking Ripsaw or similar and I'll have to get another powerhead if I can't find a Ripsaw clone that will work with the JD.


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## mtngun (Oct 3, 2009)

You'll love the JD CS62 for felling and bucking small trees. It's my fave-rite saw.

Mine has a 20" bar with 0.325" chain. I'd like to switch it to a 24" bar with 3/8" skip. It seems to have the power to run a longer bar and those extra few inches would sometimes come in handy.


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## excess650 (Oct 3, 2009)

If you plan on doing much CSMing, you NEED a much more powerful saw. My Husqvarna 272xp was marginal, and it works a 660 pretty hard when making 24"+ cuts. This isn't just about quoted HP numbers. For torque, you need displacement.

You might be able to find a used bandmill if you look around. While a ripsaw may have its place, its heavier than an Alaskan, but not as versitile. Likewise, a bandmill will make easier work of a pile of logs, but you will need to get those logs to the mill.

As far as the Lumberlite goes, I would spend the extra $ and get the Lumbermate 2000. True, it takes a bit of time to assemble, but its not difficult. Mine has the extra length of bed to make 17' cuts, but I'm seriously thinking of removing that section. If you want to conserve $, just get the 13hp Honda.


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## gemniii (Oct 3, 2009)

excess650 said:


> If you plan on doing much CSMing, you NEED a much more powerful saw. My Husqvarna 272xp was marginal, and it works a 660 pretty hard when making 24"+ cuts. This isn't just about quoted HP numbers. For torque, you need displacement.


I was only planning on trimming the lumber to square, not making 2x4's.


excess650 said:


> You might be able to find a used bandmill if you look around. While a ripsaw may have its place, its heavier than an Alaskan, but not as versitile. Likewise, a bandmill will make easier work of a pile of logs, but you will need to get those logs to the mill.
> .


Portability,Portability,Portability. With the Ripsaw I can get the mill to the trees. It will fit on my trailer with tractor and other implements. My largest trees which I NEED to cut for roads and food plots are 18" or less now. Others I can work around. The Ripsaw, or something similar I can transport easily with my tractor, trim the 18" trees down to 10x10?, 12x12?, then ripsaw them down to 1x10's or 12's and 6x6's. Throw the waste down for erosion control. Then either build real close nearby or haul the lumber out.
I like working alone, I'm going to be retired,  and don't want to sell lumber I cut. Areas I need to cut for profit will be done by men with big machines, and it won't be trails or food plots.

But I really want something highly portable with which I can cut beams and some rough siding from the trees I have to clear. So now I'm thinking Ripsaw or similar and I'll have to get another powerhead if I can't find a Ripsaw clone that will work with the JD.


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## Wilson_tree (Oct 4, 2009)

It seems like you are getting a lot of advice telling you that you have to go big with everything, but I think you are on the right track. I have used a 62cc saw with a Haddon Lumbermaker and it works. It's slow and hard on you and the saw, but it works. I think it makes it easier with a small saw if you prepare a chain similar to the Granberg ripping chain: 
http://www.madsens1.com/bnc rip.htm 
I have a Granberg Mini-Mill and use it with my Dolmar 7900 for slabbing and making beams. It still isn't a big saw but it works for what I do. 
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=46555&catID=9762
Your tractor will work fine, too. You just might have to work it as a CTL rather than whole tree for some of your skidding. I mostly use a Kubota L2500 for my skidding and handling logs. It works for the majority of the stuff I do and it's cheaper to run than my larger equipment. If your not worried about making money and doing it fast, use what you all ready have to learn. After a season or two of using what you have, you will really know what you need for the next step.


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## gemniii (Oct 4, 2009)

Wilson_tree said:


> Your tractor will work fine, too. You just might have to work it as a CTL rather than whole tree for some of your skidding. I mostly use a Kubota L2500 for my skidding and handling logs. It works for the majority of the stuff I do and it's cheaper to run than my larger equipment. If your not worried about making money and doing it fast, use what you all ready have to learn. After a season or two of using what you have, you will really know what you need for the next step.


Thanks for the support.
The overall plan is to first start making/improving trails for better access and a zip line access for later hauling lumber out. But I'm planning on using the B7610 primarily for hauling the equipment in. As I build the roads/trail in I will then be able to haul out any cut lumber with log arch modified type trailer.
Things could change rapidly, I'm looking at a place with a house and 102 acres of hardwood which for trails might demand something larger.
But if I "throw away" 3 grand on a Ripsaw and MS 660 class powerhead it's not a killer. It'll be about 2 weeks retirement pay.


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## wvlogger (Oct 8, 2009)

As an ex timber cutter if i were you i would go with a good used ms660 with some mods and a granberg mini mill for your small trees if if you can, pull all the trees you can to one location. i worked a site were the trees were milled on site and all we used was a john deere 450j lt no skidder job was to small and i tell yeah if you keep the mess in one place the job looks better


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## gemniii (Oct 13, 2009)

wvlogger said:


> i tell yeah if you keep the mess in one place the job looks better



Actually I think its beginning to be espoused to "spread the mess" (limbs, trimmings, etc.) around to "biodegrade". I do not include man made things (plastic oil cans) and erosion.


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