# Stump Grinding Estimates



## Gunsmoke (Mar 18, 2008)

Hey guys! I was just wanting to get some advice on how you are handling your estimates on grinding(even tree work even though I only grind) w/ fuel prices this high? The way I have done it in the past is drive out and look or sometimes when I'm lucky swing by w/ mach. give price and all in the same shot grind the job if no utilities close. One grinding contractor I know will bid em' over the phone and hope for the best Thanks in advance!


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## Mikecutstrees (Mar 18, 2008)

my plan is to just tack on a few extra dollars for the jobs that are further. Whatever the extra cost of fuel is ... add that in. For stuff in my own town no change. I think that high fuel costs will consolodate tree companies work and each company will have a smaller radius they travel to.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 18, 2008)

Mikecutstrees said:


> my plan is to just tack on a few extra dollars for the jobs that are further. Whatever the extra cost of fuel is ... add that in. For stuff in my own town no change. I think that high fuel costs will consolodate tree companies work and each company will have a smaller radius they travel to.



I think high fuel prices will make some go under! I bid for it, its the only way to grow, include costs in your estimate, the job is still just as hard fuel did not change that.


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 18, 2008)

We just had that discussion at the local mulch yard about how many mower jockeys and other low ball companies (tree guys included) will be gone in the near future. I came from the farm, then to the trucking industry where fuel was a concern to me when it went from a $1.00 to 1.59 in 2000(wish we had that back) and that is why I refuse to bid low and whore up the market! I like to here from the "seasoned vets" and anyone w/ some good ideas. Thanx guys!


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## masterarbor (Mar 19, 2008)

the gas is just the cost of doing business and is factored in at aggregate not each job. some are close, some ain't. i price it per inch using a straight diameter calculation. but another fella prices it per cubic inch. he says that as the stump gets bigger the surface area multiplies and compounds, which makes sense. there was a formula he used in a previous post, what was that guys? the only problem is if you go cubic inch, eventually your gonna come across the 3-4 hundred dollar stump and you just gotta know someone is going to do it cheaper. 

as far as bidding over the phone: "well, our rate is $______
per inch/cubic inch with a $______ minimum. how big is your stump? well, that sounds like it's going to be in the $_____ price range if your measurements are correct. would you like me to come out and take care of that for you?" 

good luck!


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> the gas is just the cost of doing business and is factored in at aggregate not each job. some are close, some ain't. i price it per inch using a straight diameter calculation. but another fella prices it per cubic inch. he says that as the stump gets bigger the surface area multiplies and compounds, which makes sense. there was a formula he used in a previous post, what was that guys? the only problem is if you go cubic inch, eventually your gonna come across the 3-4 hundred dollar stump and you just gotta know someone is going to do it cheaper.
> 
> as far as bidding over the phone: "well, our rate is $______
> per inch/cubic inch with a $______ minimum. how big is your stump? well, that sounds like it's going to be in the $_____ price range if your measurements are correct. would you like me to come out and take care of that for you?"
> ...


Some stumps are worth 400.00 but you are right you wont get it.That is why I bought a bigger grinder, a small grinder and you can't compete.I bid on several key points, one how many do you have! Two are they big small and how deep do you want them ground. Three are there any underground concerns to deal with,four how soon do you need them done,five do you want the grindings cleaned up, and if so; just know it cost more than the grinding does! six there is a fuel charge applied as well as tooth charge in your rocks, that charge is the cost incurred.


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanx guys! I appreciate all the advice. I usually bid per inch across the cut then look @ surface roots, etc. I think I'll make up a "order sheet" or what ever you want to call it, so when customers call I can go through the list of questions that you guys ask 
and I won't forget anything. This is my first year full time. I was grinding at night and weekends and couldn't't keep up. I went and sold my Carlton 2300 and bought a Carlton SP7015 60hp. Paid my truck off, paid cash for the trailer and just had to finance the machine. It is a concern about the fuel prices but it seems that the people out here still are going shoppin' @ the mall, drinkin' $5 coffees and etc. Where going to give er' all we got, pray and work like a dog @ it. (and not low ball the bids... wait that's another post! )


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

Gunsmoke, I dont know how many would do this but I have actually had people emali me pic`s of the stump & surroundings, they give me a measurement (widest area), I inform them to make the call "PA 1 call" for underground utilities.

this along with what has been stated here will help greatly, I always hated getting the call to bid a stump that was left 2ft high & they want that chunk hauled away.........it will cost more, but if you qoute them a price even ballpark on the phone thats what they keep in their mind & if its more $$$ then they get a little salty!!!


LXT................


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## arbor pro (Mar 19, 2008)

Over the phone, I only give 'Estimates' - not a firm bid. The estimated price is based off of measurements and information provided by the customer. If they accept my 'estimate', it is with the understanding that my measurements taken at the actual job site will be used in calculating the final price for doing the work. Unless there are a bunch of stumps or a really really big one, I don't do on-site bids until they have already ok'd the phone estimate. It costs too much $ and takes too much time to give job-site bids for smaller stumps. With enough direction, I can usually get the client to give me the measurements I'm looking for to estimate the job.

I also charge a minimum fee and figure that on bigger stumps, the client is probably going to underestimate the size of the root flare. My grinding price per inch generally reflects that. As for fuel, it's a cost just like insurance and equipment maintenance. If your cost goes up, your price goes up or else it digs into your profit margin.

Do any of you guys charge fuel 'surcharges' like trucking companies do when fuel prices skyrocket? I'm not talking about adding a few bucks more into your bid - I'm talking about adding on $5 or so as a specific fuel surcharge above and beyond the price of your bid so that the client knows it is specifically to cover the rising cost of fuel...? If you do apply a surcharge, how has it gone over with clients?


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## bombdude (Mar 19, 2008)

Gunsmoke said:


> and that is why I refuse to bid low and whore up the market!



I'm part time & new, May will make a year for me. Still feelin' the effects of the guys "whorin" up the market over the winter.

I'm still pricin the same, but I seem to be missin' out on a lotta work. I try to do $2 per inch on a few stumps ($3/inch above 48"), or come up with an average size & do a "per stump" bid on larger jobs. At the same time, I try to guestimate how many hours the job will take & come up with a figure @ $100/hour for me & my machine. Sometimes it works out pretty close, & sometimes it doesn't.

I haven't started adjusting for fuel costs...yet. It seems that the cheaper guys are gettin the work 'round here, so raising prices is a moot point.


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 19, 2008)

Great help you guys! Lxt, did I understand you right that you have the customer call in the utilities? I never thought of that. If you do, is your butt still covered? I ran across a web site and the guy stated right on his site that customer is responsible for utility call in. If they sign a liability form that it's their problem, that's great. If I misunderstood let me know.
I just wanted to say good luck to bombdude. I'm there w/ ya man. All you can do is market research on what others are charging and try to be the first to answer the phone when the customer calls and first to give prof. est. 
Thanx again guys I appreciate all the input from everyone!


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 20, 2008)

bombdude said:


> I'm part time & new, May will make a year for me. Still feelin' the effects of the guys "whorin" up the market over the winter.
> 
> I'm still pricin the same, but I seem to be missin' out on a lotta work. I try to do $2 per inch on a few stumps ($3/inch above 48"), or come up with an average size & do a "per stump" bid on larger jobs. At the same time, I try to guestimate how many hours the job will take & come up with a figure @ $100/hour for me & my machine. Sometimes it works out pretty close, & sometimes it doesn't.
> 
> I haven't started adjusting for fuel costs...yet. It seems that the cheaper guys are gettin the work 'round here, so raising prices is a moot point.



Just remember that grinding a 48" stump for $96 means you are grinding 4x + the volume of material you would be on a 24" stump for $48 and 8X the volume of material from a 12" stump for $24.

How do you deal with tough access (ie narrow gates, use of ramps etc)? Do you include travel, set up, clean up and chat with the customer time in your $100/hr rate? If so, given you only have 15 minutes to do that 12" stump, you must be pretty quick in driving, parking, raking and blowing the site.

I just finished a fir stump the other day. It was about 6' at ground level but with the buttress roots, I had to grind about 10' in diameter. Contract called for 12" depth and 3" of top soil. Took me about 8 hours to grind and haul mulch - 5 yards to shovel into the truck. Just under a yard of topsoil back into the hole.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Just remember that grinding a 48" stump for $96 means you are grinding 4x + the volume of material you would be on a 24" stump for $48 and 8X the volume of material from a 12" stump for $24.
> 
> How do you deal with tough access (ie narrow gates, use of ramps etc)? Do you include travel, set up, clean up and chat with the customer time in your $100/hr rate? If so, given you only have 15 minutes to do that 12" stump, you must be pretty quick in driving, parking, raking and blowing the site.
> 
> I just finished a fir stump the other day. It was about 6' at ground level but with the buttress roots, I had to grind about 10' in diameter. Contract called for 12" depth and 3" of top soil. Took me about 8 hours to grind and haul mulch - 5 yards to shovel into the truck. Just under a yard of topsoil back into the hole.



That would be a high dollar stump job. I am not a landscaper, I will provide
that labor but it won't be cheap. I would have charged 700.00 at least
for what you described!


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## masiman (Mar 20, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Just remember that grinding a 48" stump for $96 means you are grinding 4x + the volume of material you would be on a 24" stump for $48 and 8X the volume of material from a 12" stump for $24.



I calculate those areas to be bigger differences. Assuming the stump is a circle, the equation to calculate area is pi*(radius**2), where pi is roughly 3.1416 and radius is 1/2 the diameter (square that).

3.1416((48/2)**2) ~ 1810
3.1416((24/2)**2) ~ 452
3.1416((12/2)**2) ~ 113

That's about 3.5 times the area from 24" to 48". That's about 15 times from 12" to 48". If you multiply by the height of the grinding to get the volume, assuming they are equal, the ratio will be the same. Of course this only estimates stump volume and does not look at roots.


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## bombdude (Mar 20, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Just remember that grinding a 48" stump for $96 means you are grinding 4x + the volume of material you would be on a 24" stump for $48 and 8X the volume of material from a 12" stump for $24.
> 
> How do you deal with tough access (ie narrow gates, use of ramps etc)? Do you include travel, set up, clean up and chat with the customer time in your $100/hr rate? If so, given you only have 15 minutes to do that 12" stump, you must be pretty quick in driving, parking, raking and blowing the site.
> 
> I just finished a fir stump the other day. It was about 6' at ground level but with the buttress roots, I had to grind about 10' in diameter. Contract called for 12" depth and 3" of top soil. Took me about 8 hours to grind and haul mulch - 5 yards to shovel into the truck. Just under a yard of topsoil back into the hole.




I understand the difference in linear inch & cubic inch and how the stump grows exponentially as the diameter increases. Originally I was pricing everything at $2/inch regardless of size which was way too low for bigger stumps. 

As far as incidentals, I usually kick in extra as the job demands it. To reduce my machine (Vermeer 352) for a narrow gate, I usually kick in an extra $20. Excess distance, I figure in a little extra for fuel. I don't dig, haul or refill if I can help it. I do grade & dress the shavings, and blow off the sidewalks or porches if needed. That is usually figured as part of my $100/hour rate.

Our problem here is too many "beer money grinders". 

I just bid a 56" pine stump w/6' of roots in each direction (probably about 17 linear feet of grinding area), inside a stone wall fence with one 35 1/2" cypress doorway. Money was not an issue with these people. This was one of 3 homes that these people own. One of them being on the beach on the Mexican coast. I told them that I'd do it for $400.00 which I thought was EXTREMELY cheap. Hubby sounded happy, & said that he'd call me as they were going out of town for a few days. I left feeling that I'd gotten the job, and that I probably should have bid more. 

I get a call a week later from the wife who says that the guy that took the tree down could get her a grinder to do it for $100. I advised her that I couldn't do it for that, and I would be surprised that anyone else would do it that cheap. Even gave her the pitch about doing a thorough job, insurance, customer satisfaction, etc. Yesterday, I talked back with her, &, sure enough, the tree guy got her a grinder for $100. He did the job on Monday.


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## corndogg (Mar 20, 2008)

bombdude said:


> I understand the difference in linear inch & cubic inch and how the stump grows exponentially as the diameter increases. Originally I was pricing everything at $2/inch regardless of size which was way too low for bigger stumps.
> 
> As far as incidentals, I usually kick in extra as the job demands it. To reduce my machine (Vermeer 352) for a narrow gate, I usually kick in an extra $20. Excess distance, I figure in a little extra for fuel. I don't dig, haul or refill if I can help it. I do grade & dress the shavings, and blow off the sidewalks or porches if needed. That is usually figured as part of my $100/hour rate.
> 
> ...



It's stories like these that make us all throw our hand up and wonder what some peopla are thinking. Good for the HO for saving themselves the cash. At least with stump grinding there is not much risk that the lowballer will screw up and drop the tree on the house. Most customers are smart to let the stump sit there until some lowballer spots it and does it for free!

I am usually around $2 bucks an inch to compete and try to upsell on cleanup and backfill. The square inch thing makes way more sense. And it gives the illusion that you are cheaper! Some guys around here are busy at 3.50 an inch. I started grinding because people wanted it in the removal package and couldn't get the subs to do it reliably. Figured it coould be a good source of more revenue but so far not impressed.


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## corndogg (Mar 20, 2008)

Well here's how it works out. 
Stump Dia____$2/inch___$3/inch____$.11/sq inch
24"____________48_______72________49.73
48"____________96_______144_______198
84"____________168______252_______609

The square inch price gets a little out of hand with the big ones. The three dollar price looks pretty good if you have a big grinder to handle the big ones quickly. The three dollar price will scare customers away. Keep in mind you have to shovel the mulch out of the way on the big ones so you can see what you are doing anyway. Might as well charge more and haul it away. 

So what's the answer? Maybe a lower square inch price with a minimum of $80?


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 21, 2008)

masiman said:


> I calculate those areas to be bigger differences. Assuming the stump is a circle, the equation to calculate area is pi*(radius**2), where pi is roughly 3.1416 and radius is 1/2 the diameter (square that).
> 
> 3.1416((48/2)**2) ~ 1810
> 3.1416((24/2)**2) ~ 452
> ...



You're right, I was just thinking it through without double checking the calcs on paper. If you double the diameter you 4x the area (2 squared), if you 4x the diameter then you 16 times the area (4 squared). Thanks for correcting my oversight.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 21, 2008)

corndogg said:


> Well here's how it works out.
> Stump Dia____$2/inch___$3/inch____$.11/sq inch
> 24"____________48_______72________49.73
> 48"____________96_______144_______198
> ...



Are you saying $600 for a 7' stump is excessive? I guess it depends on your hourly rate and your expected travel time. But it's going to take 3-4 hours to grind and clean up (assuming its a leave mulch). At $125/hr thats still $500 and you need to build some travel time into that price.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 21, 2008)

bombdude said:


> I understand the difference in linear inch & cubic inch and how the stump grows exponentially as the diameter increases. Originally I was pricing everything at $2/inch regardless of size which was way too low for bigger stumps.
> 
> As far as incidentals, I usually kick in extra as the job demands it. To reduce my machine (Vermeer 352) for a narrow gate, I usually kick in an extra $20. Excess distance, I figure in a little extra for fuel. I don't dig, haul or refill if I can help it. I do grade & dress the shavings, and blow off the sidewalks or porches if needed. That is usually figured as part of my $100/hour rate.
> 
> ...



So you figured it would take you 4 hours. Unless this guy just took it down to 1/2" below grass level, how is he going to do it any faster? I don't know how anyone can make it on $25/hr.


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## corndogg (Mar 21, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Are you saying $600 for a 7' stump is excessive? I guess it depends on your hourly rate and your expected travel time. But it's going to take 3-4 hours to grind and clean up (assuming its a leave mulch). At $125/hr thats still $500 and you need to build some travel time into that price.



I don't mind the price but I don't think anybody is gonna pay it. Like I said, the HO will wait till some lowballer will do it for $100 cause he needs to make his payment next week. It's a sad world. I think I did a nearly 7 footer(cottonwood) last year and I don't think it took over 2 hours with a 1625 Rayco but I did have a helper raking mulch away. I don't know, I like the square inch method but the lowballers are gonna get the work. I just bid a 14 ft cottonwood trunk with this 84" stump. I told him $500. He said " That's about what I thought it would cost" I knew it was a little cheap but I thought "I just know somebody took the rest of the tree for 1100 (lowballer)" You've gotta bid em to get em, otherwise I'm just out sightseein. I drove there with the dump truck and skid loader. Flopped her and cut into three chunks and loaded. Drove a half hour and dumped for free(mulch is in high demand so they take wood for free luckily) Came back for skidloader and was out in three hours. Now I gotta find someone to grind the 84" stump. They can drive up to it with a pull behind grinder. Leave mulch, don't worry about tearing anything up, landscaping soon. I was figuring I could get someone to do it for $2/inch = 168. Know anybody that can do it around here? Am I crazy?


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## masiman (Mar 21, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> You're right, I was just thinking it through without double checking the calcs on paper. If you double the diameter you 4x the area (2 squared), if you 4x the diameter then you 16 times the area (4 squared). Thanks for correcting my oversight.



I knew that you knew the math. I thought it might help someone else


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 21, 2008)

Like we said it will only be a matter of time before a guy like this (unless he has some "illegal employees") couldn't be around for long. At the rate he got paid he may as well put in 4hrs at Lowe's or somewhere! After fuel to get there, fuel in mach., teeth wear, his wage to himself, etc.... he should have stayed home. Keep on going after it man... let these boneheads run until there wheels fall off!!! Then go to their auction and have a hotdog and a Coke and smile as you bid on some cheap equipment


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 21, 2008)

Just to be clear I was talking about the lowballer who stole the job from bombdude for $100.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 21, 2008)

Gunsmoke said:


> Just to be clear I was talking about the lowballer who stole the job from bombdude for $100.



May have been a lowballer, may have had a big grinder! My grinder
will grind that stump in ten minutes time so 25.00 diesel = 7.50 per minute
not bad!


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## tomtrees58 (Mar 21, 2008)

*est*

stumps here on LI NY its 5$ and inch you con do over phone tom trees


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 22, 2008)

That's pretty good rate @ $5 per/inch. Ropensaddle, it looked like he only had a 35 1/2" gate to get through." I just bid a 56" pine stump w/6' of roots in each direction (probably about 17 linear feet of grinding area), inside a stone wall fence with one 35 1/2" cypress doorway." I figured it must be a portable to get to it. Is your big machine a tow behind? I know w/ my 7015 it would take a little while to get that one done(depending on full depth, neighbor wanting to count how many grinder teeth are on machine,etc). without seeing it I would ballpark it @ $275. Just what I was thinking. If you could get a big old horsepower grinder to it in an open area and blow it out quick... you are right @ $100 you'd do good.


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## tomtrees58 (Mar 22, 2008)

*tree stumps*

hi tom trees here and yes i have 630b 5$ and inch is the nom rember this is L I N Y The gold cost have a good day


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 22, 2008)

I got ya. I would take a guess that you guys pay more for everything in your area? $5 an inch here would be a beautiful thing in Ohio. THX for the reply.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 22, 2008)

Gunsmoke said:


> That's pretty good rate @ $5 per/inch. Ropensaddle, it looked like he only had a 35 1/2" gate to get through." I just bid a 56" pine stump w/6' of roots in each direction (probably about 17 linear feet of grinding area), inside a stone wall fence with one 35 1/2" cypress doorway." I figured it must be a portable to get to it. Is your big machine a tow behind? I know w/ my 7015 it would take a little while to get that one done(depending on full depth, neighbor wanting to count how many grinder teeth are on machine,etc). without seeing it I would ballpark it @ $275. Just what I was thinking. If you could get a big old horsepower grinder to it in an open area and blow it out quick... you are right @ $100 you'd do good.



I did not know the access thing, ya that would be a high dollar.


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## tomtrees58 (Mar 22, 2008)

yes L I $$$ 3 man trim 1200.00 pr day tom trees


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## masterarbor (Mar 22, 2008)

tomtrees58 said:


> hi tom trees here and yes i have 630b 5$ and inch is the nom rember this is L I N Y The gold cost have a good day


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## ropensaddle (Mar 22, 2008)

masterarbor said:


>



Me too, but I read between L I & z lines lol!


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Mar 22, 2008)

*Stump included $ 3850.00*

Remove Water Oak; open backyard 4men, myself (11hrs total ) Included (2 hrs. & 45 min. grinding w/ 630B all hauling ( 2 mi. from dump ) 5 load total @ $25.00 a load. Figured stump 28 ft. grind area @ 8" average depth $500.00 . Everything cleaned-up> everyone happy. $ 3850.00 mid-price for our area. Sawed & dropped ( after removing hips ) Sthil 046 / 32" Bar. ALL OLD SCHOOL WORK !


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 22, 2008)

You could see the "rookie stump grinder" show up to a stump like that with a little 25hp manual grinder that he bid over the phone for like 100 bucks:jawdrop: 

Nice job and good price on that ol' Oak.

Do you stump fellas have a large and a small unit for flexibility in dealing with close quarters or small stumps that wouldn't warrant the trouble of getting the big grinder out? I realize that when you start out you are using one unit usually so this question may apply more to an established co.


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## stump grinder (Mar 23, 2008)

When I first started grinding 6 years ago I tried to set up by using the circumfrence/area method. What i found was that this was a good reference for me only. I currently charge $2.25/ inch up to around the 36" range. Then I use $3 / inch as a starting point. I take into account the extra roots and if the root ball requires me to level out the surrounding ground. Also the amount of grindings I need to clear away to see what I am grinding. The larger ones go on the invoice as a quoted price and not by the inch as the smallers ones do because of this. I also use a rayco 1625. I account for the time I think I will have into the larger stumps. To avoid sticker shock to the customer I look at what else they are having me do. Three small stumps that take 30 minutes and fetch $100 lets me adjust the price for the larger stump. I have also charged the full rate on larger stump and then do some of the smaller ones for free.In the end I look for about a $100/ hour income. It really is a judgement call that comes from experience. Expect to burn and then learn. My first job with a rayco 1620 took 14 hours, all 5 foot plus stumps and loaded with embeded rock. I made about $35/ hour. Burn and learn. You want to bid to get the job, but when it comes to the larger stuff make sure you bid high enough to make it worth your while. Remember that you are in this for profit and not charity. On the other side of this. Last year I did a row of mature cedars, about 50 of them. I bid $650 . I did the job in two hours. Much faster than I expected. I made sure to do a good job cleaning up outside of the grinding area. I told the customer that it went well and to call if they found anything that they did not like. You don't want the customer to feel like they got screwed because the job went well. I am confident that they will use me again.


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## bombdude (Mar 23, 2008)

Gunsmoke said:


> That's pretty good rate @ $5 per/inch. Ropensaddle, it looked like he only had a 35 1/2" gate to get through." I just bid a 56" pine stump w/6' of roots in each direction (probably about 17 linear feet of grinding area), inside a stone wall fence with one 35 1/2" cypress doorway." I figured it must be a portable to get to it. Is your big machine a tow behind? I know w/ my 7015 it would take a little while to get that one done(depending on full depth, neighbor wanting to count how many grinder teeth are on machine,etc). without seeing it I would ballpark it @ $275. Just what I was thinking. If you could get a big old horsepower grinder to it in an open area and blow it out quick... you are right @ $100 you'd do good.




yep. definitely a restricted access job. Don't know who the guy was or what kind of machine he was runnin'. But apparently there is one low baller out there with a portable machine.

ropensaddle, man what size is your machine?? 10 minutes, wow!! gotta be a rush to have that kinda power. Back up to a big old stump & blow it away. My little 34 horse gets the job done, but it's a little slow on the bigger stumps. I did an 8 footer a while back that took right at 3 hours. That included cutting it down and shoving the block (6') into the woods. luckily he 
lived in a rural area & I didn't have to haul it away. I bid $350, so it worked out pretty well.


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