# More bad luck



## Kicker_92 (Feb 24, 2010)

Like everyone says, milling is hard on a chainsaw... 

The connecting rod bearing let go on our 385xp last weekend. Had just fired it up to buck up a few pieces, got two cuts in and it seized. Could not rotate it with the pullcord even once it cooled down.

Pulled the cylinder and found a bunch of metal, but the piston is all intact. Look down at the bearing on the crankshaft and there's pretty much nothing left. Looks like it'd need a new crank, connecting rod, and bearing.

So the milling's on hold for a while now. Anyone here split a Husky case to replace a crank? Are there any special tools needed?


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## DRB (Feb 24, 2010)

Oh crap you got bad saw luck. I would be out of CS milling if I had two big saws go down.

Good luck with the recovery


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## mtngun (Feb 24, 2010)

Sorry about your ongoing misfortune with milling saws.

I'm on my 3rd 066 top end and expect to install #4 later this year. At least aftermarket parts are affordable.

I've never worked on a husky. The chainsaw forum crowd will probably help you out, if you can put up with a little heckling and backseat driving.


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## grapplermi (Feb 25, 2010)

Yep,

Ask that question on the chainsaw forum, they talk about it a lot. Better yet, do a search over there, you might find it already.

Cheers, Matt


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## mountainlake (Feb 25, 2010)

Seems like a low cost bandmill would save a lot of chainsaws. Steve


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## BobL (Feb 25, 2010)

If it makes you feel any better here was my what happened to my 38 year old mac 10-10 in 2007.


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## tlbsg (Feb 25, 2010)

hey mtngun 3 rd top end and expect 4th this year aftermarket parts cheap maybe thats why the 066 is unreliable might be better of with genuine bits


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## huskyhank (Feb 25, 2010)

Sorry for your trouble.

I'd sell it for parts and get another bigger saw. A nice used 395 maybe. I don't know for a fact but I think the bottom ends of the 385s is a weak point. You might come out better on the money selling it for parts than fixing the one you have.


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## mtngun (Feb 25, 2010)

tlbsg said:


> hey mtngun 3 rd top end and expect 4th this year aftermarket parts cheap maybe thats why the 066 is unreliable might be better of with genuine bits


Or maybe I'd be better off with a Husky ? :hmm3grin2orange:

Seriously....

1st failure -- circlip broke on Golf piston due to circlip groove machined to deep. Yes, defective aftermarket part, that was on the saw when I acquired it.

2nd failure -- sawdust poisoning on OEM P&C due to poorly designed way Stihl attaches air filter

3rd top end -- BB kit never failed, just lame performance because they copied OEM port timing and compression ratio

4th failure -- aftermarket rings won't seal in resurrected OEM jug, probably due to excessive jug damage in previous sawdust incident. 

Except for the Golf piston, other issues were all related to poor OEM design.


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## Kicker_92 (Feb 25, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> I don't know for a fact but I think the bottom ends of the 385s is a weak point. You might come out better on the money selling it for parts than fixing the one you have.



Searching through the chainsaw forum shows a lot of main bearing failures, especially on the PTO side. I didn't see anything the crank/connecting rod bearing though.

I really like this saw, nice and light for the power with a 30" bar. Just got a new set of dawgs for it too. Will price out the parts and see if it's worthwhile. The saw has about three years of hard use on it, so might just be towards the end of it's life.

Bob, I guess I'm lucky that the cylinder and piston are in decent shape! Was that the bearing at the crank or piston pin that let go?


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## MR4WD (Feb 25, 2010)

There's a guy on ebay.ca that's got a steady stream of 385's for sale. They all look well used, but in any capacity would be good for parts, or even as a whole.

I feel that yes, the 385/390 is a nimble light package for milling, but for heavier use I'd look at a 394/395 set up.


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## BobL (Feb 25, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> Bob, I guess I'm lucky that the cylinder and piston are in decent shape! Was that the bearing at the crank or piston pin that let go?



Piston.


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## woodsrunner (Feb 25, 2010)

Bailey's(one of the AS sponsors) has OEM Husky parts you are likely to need if you decide to repair the saw yourself.

Scott


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## matt9923 (Feb 25, 2010)

BobL said:


> If it makes you feel any better here was my what happened to my 38 year old mac 10-10 in 2007.



That doesn't make me feel good, how was the jug? I must have missed that thread if it was one.


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## Brmorgan (Feb 25, 2010)

tlbsg said:


> hey mtngun 3 rd top end and expect 4th this year aftermarket parts cheap maybe thats why the 066 is unreliable might be better of with genuine bits



On the other hand, why sink all that money into an OEM topend to throw on a slightly suspect saw that's already blown a couple times?

That's a crappy deal, Kicker. So far I've never had a saw pack it in while I was running it (fingers crossed) but I know it's inevitable in the long run. I too think you'd be better off with a 395 though if it comes down to replacing the saw.

mtngun, I'm thinking as long as the cylinder coating isn't worn (or badly scratched) right through to bare aluminum, it should still be usable. Otherwise you'd be having some severe piston clearance and premature skirt wear issues as well, no? Did you take some sandpaper to the cylinder to rough it up ever so slightly to allow the new rings to seat?


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## BobL (Feb 25, 2010)

matt9923 said:


> That doesn't make me feel good, how was the jug? I must have missed that thread if it was one.



Jug is shot. It's a gutsy little saw - I'd like to fix it up if I could find a jug and slug.


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## Brmorgan (Feb 25, 2010)

BobL said:


> Jug is shot. It's a gutsy little saw - I'd like to fix it up if I could find a jug and slug.



Bob - I have a spare 10-10 my friend gave me that I've robbed a few parts off of to get my yard sale special PM 10-10A up and running - I'm still chasing a carb issue with it though. I can't remember if I checked the topend out on it or not; if it's good it's yours for the price of shipping along with anything else I don't need. I'm not doing anything important right now (ladies already won the gold in Hockey; my night is complete!) so I'll go down and tear it out to see what it looks like. Not sure how much shipping for something like that would be to Oz, maybe $15-20?


Kicker, I forgot to mention - you CAN get a special tool from Husky to split the cases, but if you do a good search on the topic over in the chainsaw forum you'll get a whole bunch of homebrew jigs that do just as well. A piece of angle iron with three holes drilled through (two for bar studs, one for crank) and a nut welded over the crank hole will do. Drive a bolt into the crank and it'll split. Make sure you have ALL the case bolts out though!


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## mtngun (Feb 26, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> mtngun, I'm thinking as long as the cylinder coating isn't worn (or badly scratched) right through to bare aluminum, it should still be usable. Otherwise you'd be having some severe piston clearance and premature skirt wear issues as well, no? Did you take some sandpaper to the cylinder to rough it up ever so slightly to allow the new rings to seat?


I only lightly sanded the damaged spots, not the whole jug.

I may tear it apart, and if it is not already a lost cause, hone it aggressively and try again. Nothing to lose.

It's weird what sawdust does to an engine. You wouldn't think it would hurt the engine that much, but it does.


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## BobL (Feb 26, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Bob - I have a spare 10-10 my friend gave me that I've robbed a few parts off of to get my yard sale special PM 10-10A up and running - I'm still chasing a carb issue with it though. I can't remember if I checked the topend out on it or not; if it's good it's yours for the price of shipping along with anything else I don't need. I'm not doing anything important right now (ladies already won the gold in Hockey; my night is complete!) so I'll go down and tear it out to see what it looks like. Not sure how much shipping for something like that would be to Oz, maybe $15-20?



Wow - that's just awesome - The other thing I'd need for it is an air filter.
Now I absolutely have to come and see you when I come to Canada! 
I'll be PMing you!


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## Andrew96 (Feb 26, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> Seems like a low cost bandmill would save a lot of chainsaws. Steve



Steve....I'd say...recommended service limits and inspections would save more of them. 

Hmm...Time to vent. Why does it seem that hard working saws only seem to get maintenance after they destruct and are scrap? 
You know....pistons/rings have service limits. The weight savings we get with a 2 stroke means you have a lower service limit for piston and ring replacement (than say....a low rpm 4 stroke). You could measure it in hours...or take it apart and measure..inspect the B/C. If the piston looks good (ie visually AND measures out to still be within spec)...put a new ring(s) on it and go for another 25 hrs. It's not like it's a weekend to pull it apart and check (like other engines). If you don't 'bother' to do this...don't be shocked when it stops and the saw is scrap, or start looking to see if it's a known weak point. It's much easier...and cheaper to 'maintain' your saw rather than replace it...start the research now, while your saw is still running and replace the parts that are known to not last as many hours as people had hoped. I don't see too much discussion on ring end gap, piston ring or skirt clearance numbers, burn patterns, hours running vs ring end gap...lots of photos of destruction though. 

Kicker......I don't mean to be disrespectful here....but I know your blown crank bearings would have made a hell of a noise...and major vibration before they let go....and this is your second catastrophic failure in as many months!! I sure hope someone else was running it at the time...they really should have shut it down before it stopped. Do you replace piston and rings based on the amount of fuel through the saw or do you have an hour meter like some people here? I hope you have some 'system'...or I'd expect the rest of your equipment to blow up soon (they will after all...only run for so long without replacement parts).
Con rod failures are 'usually' either way too many hours (past service limit) or oil related.


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## mountainlake (Feb 26, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Steve....I'd say...recommended service limits and inspections would save more of them.
> 
> Hmm...Time to vent. Why does it seem that hard working saws only seem to get maintenance after they destruct and are scrap?
> You know....pistons/rings have service limits. The weight savings we get with a 2 stroke means you have a lower service limit for piston and ring replacement (than say....a low rpm 4 stroke). You could measure it in hours...or take it apart and measure..inspect the B/C. If the piston looks good (ie visually AND measures out to still be within spec)...put a new ring(s) on it and go for another 25 hrs. It's not like it's a weekend to pull it apart and check (like other engines). If you don't 'bother' to do this...don't be shocked when it stops and the saw is scrap, or start looking to see if it's a known weak point. It's much easier...and cheaper to 'maintain' your saw rather than replace it...start the research now, while your saw is still running and replace the parts that are known to not last as many hours as people had hoped. I don't see too much discussion on ring end gap, piston ring or skirt clearance numbers, burn patterns, hours running vs ring end gap...lots of photos of destruction though.
> ...



Yes, properly tuned and maintained sure helps but chainsaw milling is hard on saws, if I had huge logs I'd get one but for smaller logs there are quite a few bandsaws that don't cost much and should last a long time without a lot of expence. Plus all the extra lumber you get would pay for that bandsaw in short order if you sold it. Steve


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## Andrew96 (Feb 26, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> Yes, properly tuned and maintained sure helps but chainsaw milling is hard on saws



Steve....well I disagree. I think running the saw wide open, in a long heavy cut is close enough to being the same as bucking a tree...when you measure it by the number of 'hours' it was running wide open...or the amount of fuel through it. Yup...milling can work them hard...but I feel it's about working the saw longer....people just count days out with the saw rather than working hours, then wonder why it won't last years...like their limbing saw.

Yes...same discussion about CSM vs BSM. Each has it's pros and cons...it's not just about initial cost...or the cost of maintenance.


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## BobL (Feb 26, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Steve....well I disagree. I think running the saw wide open, in a long heavy cut is close enough to being the same as bucking a tree...



Actually there is quite a bit of difference. Bucking a 2 ft diam x 10 ft long log log into 1 ft long blocks = 31 sq ft of cutting. 

Now take that same 10 ft long log and cut 11 x 2" slabs and thats 174 sq ft of cutting or 560% more - that is a really big difference in my book. Even if those blocks are quartered that adds only 40 more sq ft. 

I do agree that many saws can be better maintained than they are and very few owners for example stick to the 2000 hours for ring replacement.


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## mtngun (Feb 26, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Why does it seem that hard working saws only seem to get maintenance after they destruct and are scrap?


So ........ are we supposed to change the oil at regular intervals ? Check the air in the tires ? 

Most of my saws were previously owned, so I have no idea how many hours they have on the crank, etc.. Very few of us keep track of the operating hours on our saws (nice thing about the tach on my milling saw is that automatically logs the hours). The surprising thing is how _*FEW*_ hours the saw actually runs in a day. Most of the time it sits idle while I am setting up and moving stuff around. The milling saw may only run 2 hours in an 8 hour day.

Now that I have a tach, I check carb tuning frequently. After every full day of sawing, I clean the air filter and check muffler bolts (they like to rattle loose). About once a year, I pull the fuel filter from the gas tank and blow it out.

If the saw is not running right, I investigate further. A compression check is a quick and simple indicator of piston and ring health. If it has good compression, there is no need to tear the engine down to measure clearances. 

When the circlip broke, there was no warning, no noise. It was as if someone hit the kill switch.

On the day the saw swallowed sawdust, it began the day with a freshly cleaned air filter. There was no noise, no warning, and it never actually stopped running. It just bogged down easily -- and even that was not particularly unusual, since it has *ALWAYS* bogged down easily. However, I could tell by the resistance on the starter cord that compression was low, and when I took the air filter off, I found massive sawdust leakage past the filter. 

I fail to see how any of the engine failures that I have experienced could have been prevented by routine preventive maintenance.  Stuff happens. Saw engines are not very forgiving.


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## Kicker_92 (Feb 26, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Kicker......I don't mean to be disrespectful here....but I know your blown crank bearings would have made a hell of a noise...and major vibration before they let go....and this is your second catastrophic failure in as many months!! I sure hope someone else was running it at the time...they really should have shut it down before it stopped. Do you replace piston and rings based on the amount of fuel through the saw or do you have an hour meter like some people here? I hope you have some 'system'...or I'd expect the rest of your equipment to blow up soon (they will after all...only run for so long without replacement parts).
> Con rod failures are 'usually' either way too many hours (past service limit) or oil related.



No noise, no warning, just bogged the seized.

If loggers had to open up this saw every 25 hours to check the rings and piston, it would be completely unacceptable. I haven't heard of anyone other than racing that would do that on a motor.

Sure, regular maintenance is expected like fuel / air filters, spark plugs, etc. Rings are checked with compression, and I measured 140 psi about 6 months ago. I don't blame the saw, it's been great! Just probably getting towards the end of it's service life when these types of parts start to go.

I'll looks at the 395xp option as a replacement, but I already have the MS880 for a big saw. This one just gets used for smaller slabs and edging with the 30" bar.


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## olyman (Feb 26, 2010)

When the circlip broke, there was no warning, no noise. It was as if someone hit the kill switch.


> tell me about that one--same thing happened on my 264 oly--sawing thru ash log--instant shut down--instant!!!! thought?????? have other saws!!! so--bout two months later tear down-------circlip broke--went up side of piston--jammed rings--and went out the exhaust!!! and never even left a mark on the jug!!!!! had another piston--put rings to it,runs like a bat now!!! i owned this saw since new--so factory clip--why broke????? who knows!!!!


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## Brmorgan (Feb 26, 2010)

Even more than the total amount of wood cut or overall time spent at WOT is the issue of increased heat with milling. Holding a saw at WOT for 5+ minutes at a time is of course going to put a lot more wear and tear on a saw than running a few seconds at WOT followed by a few seconds' cooldown period, just like driving a car wide open for hours like in a race will kill an engine a lot faster than average Joe driving to work and back every day. I'm a believer that regular basic maintenance like bearing greasing and filter/fuel system cleaning will have a lot more longterm benefit and that perhaps parts will result in some parts lasting much longer than the "recommended" replacement schedule. 

I agree though - I have no idea how many hours' use is on any of my equipment. I could probably make a ballpark guess, but really, I just try to listen to what my engines are trying to tell me. My 371 was low on compression back in December; it had always felt strong to pull but seemed to lose power more easily than I thought it should, turned out it was only blowing 125 PSI. So I checked the ring gap and it was over .050" - ideal is less than .010". A new ring and it's back in business at 150 PSI and cuts like a demon.

Last year I thought I had pooched my 066 out milling one day - it started acting up a bit with a jumpy idle and the like, and then a half hour later it just quit, instantly, and had literally zero compression. Turned out the spark plug had turned itself all the way out and finally popped right out. I was very lucky; somehow it survived that without leaning out too far and scoring.


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## BobL (Feb 26, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Even more than the total amount of wood cut or overall time spent at WOT is the issue of increased heat with milling. Holding a saw at WOT for 5+ minutes at a time is of course going to put a lot more wear and tear on a saw than running a few seconds at WOT followed by a few seconds' cooldown period, just like driving a car wide open for hours like in a race will kill an engine a lot faster than average Joe driving to work and back every day.



Yep - I agree with that. Those few seconds between bucks make a big difference. Even though my temp gauge says the temp is going up when coming of a hot run I know the cylinder and piston are being cooled by the unburnt gas.


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## mtngun (Feb 26, 2010)

olyman said:


> tell me about that one--same thing happened on my 264 oly--sawing thru ash log--instant shut down--instant!!!! thought?????? have other saws!!! so--bout two months later tear down-------circlip broke--went up side of piston--jammed rings--and went out the exhaust!!! and never even left a mark on the jug!!!!! had another piston--put rings to it,runs like a bat now!!! i owned this saw since new--so factory clip--why broke????? who knows!!!!


I wrote it up a couple of years ago. Actually, it was an 064 that I had bought on ebay advertised as an 066 (another story). The seller had rebuilt the saw just before ebaying it (how do you rebuild the saw and not know it is an 064 ?).

Anyway, the seller had used a Golf piston. Golfs of that era were known to have the circlip grooves cut too deeply. The circlip was swallowed up by the groove and the only thing preventing the pin from walking out was the ears on the circlip. You can imagine the pin bumping into the ears over and over again until they fatigued and broke off.

I think the root cause was the circlip groove being too deep. I have since used circlips with ears and not had any problems.

Dunno about your Oly -- Efcos aren't supposed to break, you know. :biggrinbounce2:

Seriously, chainsaws are just high maintenance, regardless of brand.


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 26, 2010)

There absolutely IS a place for CSM's, but when it comes to cost, i've always said... When you figure ALL the cost of owning a CSM, they really aren't much, if any cheaper than a BSM!

For instance, a Honds 13 on a BSM will last MANY years with just yearly oil changes, and make cut after cut, year after year at WOT... That motor will have no problem outlasting two big CSM power heads, and do it "quietly", on 1/5th the fuel, with no bar oil, no 2 stroke oil. Plus every 5th board off the BSM is FREE, as it isn't turned into sawdust like on a CSM. Resale is better on a BSM too...

Add all of that up over a few years, and that BSM isn't so expensive after all...

Really, as guys needs one of each kind of mill, to cover all the bases! lol

Rob


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## MR4WD (Feb 27, 2010)

You can have either a lightweight cheap 2 stroke that cuts trees both sideways and vertically but blows up frequently, or you can have a heavy 4 stroke that will last forever, cost more and won't run sideways to cut a tree. I think most of us on this forum pick the CSM


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 27, 2010)

MR4WD said:


> You can have either a lightweight cheap 2 stroke that cuts trees both sideways and vertically but blows up frequently, or you can have a heavy 4 stroke that will last forever, cost more and won't run sideways to cut a tree. I think most of us on this forum pick the CSM


Funny thing though, most of those lightweight 2 strokes that are big enough to cut trees laying down are NOT that cheap...and often they do blow up...

For me, using a chainsaw mill is miserable, and in most cases costs as much as if one would have invested in a used bandmill to begin with. It's a good thing we all get to choose, since after all, it is our money that we end up spending on it.

Give me that heavy 4 stroke that will last forever any day of the week.

For the amount of sawdust you produce, CSMs are way over rated, IMO. And it's a good thing we can all have an opinion, as a lot of folks on here (the majority) seem to be happy with CSMs. You can have them.


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## BobL (Feb 27, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Funny thing though, most of those lightweight 2 strokes that are big enough to cut trees laying down are NOT that cheap...and often they do blow up...
> 
> For me, using a chainsaw mill is miserable . . . . .



I can't see what's not to like.

Loud fully in your face noises, lots of smoke and gas fumes, screaming engines, engines blowing up and drinking beer. People pay a lot of money to experience this sort of thing.

Maybe I am a little crazy but I like the whole CSM process from A to Z. I probably like the process more than I like the output ie the lumber. From making the mill, using the milling process to fine tune it's operation, using some of the wood (well I have used very little of it directly so far), and then chewing the fat about it on AS. I like hand filing much more than using a grinder. Optimizing the cutter profile to make big chips out of some of our cast type iron wood is a challenge I really enjoy and I have to be able to do this without sweating too much otherwise I wouldn't be doing it.

One of the best parts is turning the freshly cut big slab and seeing the wood like it really is and will never be again.

The powerhead screams and echoes around the bush for 10-15 minutes and then there is silence for 15-20 minutes broken by just the sound of the wind or birds or the scrtch/scrtch/scrtch of the file touching up the cutters. Perhaps I like it because it reminds me of the many times I went as as kid with my dad into the bush when he was faller.

I am in absolutely no hurry - if I cut 3 slabs or 30 in a day I don't care as I already have more wood than I can poke a stick at. I have even milled stuff for people I know for a couple of good slabs and a few beers afterwards. If they want premium lumber out of their trees I tell them to get a swing miller in to do the job. I don't particularly care about the large amount of sawdust I generate because 90% of what I cut are falls that would rot in place or stuff that would otherwise end up in a chipper. 

I agree, CSMing is a long way from being the most efficient way to get lumber out of a tree but accessing the wood is only one of my objectives. One thing I have found is the process is a very effective antidote against the pressures of line managing 65 people at my day job. I could go to a therapist for $150 an hour or I can do something I enjoy doing.


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## olyman (Feb 27, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I wrote it up a couple of years ago. Actually, it was an 064 that I had bought on ebay advertised as an 066 (another story). The seller had rebuilt the saw just before ebaying it (how do you rebuild the saw and not know it is an 064 ?).
> 
> Anyway, the seller had used a Golf piston. Golfs of that era were known to have the circlip grooves cut too deeply. The circlip was swallowed up by the groove and the only thing preventing the pin from walking out was the ears on the circlip. You can imagine the pin bumping into the ears over and over again until they fatigued and broke off.
> 
> ...



tell me--dang strange--as have always used correct oil mix--


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 27, 2010)

BobL said:


> Loud fully in your face noises, lots of smoke and gas fumes, screaming engines, engines blowing up and drinking beer. People pay a lot of money to experience this sort of thing.


I had to give 'ya some rep on that Bob...still, you can have it!


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## Brmorgan (Feb 27, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> I had to give 'ya some rep on that Bob...still, you can have it!



LOL Bob forgot to mention that a good full day of CSMing will lead to a full-blown hangover and headache just like the other activities he mentioned! I've had some killer morning-afters after a good milling day.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 27, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> LOL Bob forgot to mention that a good full day of CSMing will lead to a full-blown hangover and headache just like the other activities he mentioned! I've had some killer morning-afters after a good milling day.


Brad,

I hate to say it, but you almost have to consume alcohol in order to tolerate it! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## BobL (Feb 27, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> I had to give 'ya some rep on that Bob...still, you can have it!



I know I'm in a minority, but I'll take it.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 27, 2010)

BobL said:


> I know I'm in a minority, but I'll take it.


I'll tell 'ya something...sometimes it could be worth putting up with to get some usable wood to build with, I will say that...about 5 years ago I saw a guy mill up an elm tree into 8/4 slabs and was shocked at the amount of wood he got from a single tree using an Alaskan mill...then I had the opportunity to mill with one and it just wasn't very enjoyable for me. The sharpening wasn't the problem, I like to sharpen with a file by hand and make my own handsaws, it was just the process wasn't so comfortable for me.

In general I find chainsaws to be annoying for me, more so than power tools to work wood with, because of the mess, oil, smoke, etc...I put up with it for working on the logs to build the home I'm working on, but would prefer to do it by hand with hand saws, axes, and other hand tools. I use hand tools after I rough the dovetail out, and that's the part I REALLY enjoy...I enjoy working wood by hand much more than with power tools. So, I use the approach that I do all the dimensioning of lumber with power tools and then do all the joinery, fitting, and detail work by hand using hand tools.

When I was learning how to fit dovetails back in West Virginia at a friend's yard, they were working pretty hard, it kept raining off and on, and he had to go talk to a client...when he came back to the yard he came over and jokingly asked if he could get me a chaise lounge...I had stacked some ends and pieces and was sitting down and fitting the dovetail just right with a hand plane and chisels. I told him I was on vacation and enjoying myself, and no I don't like to lay down while I work but I do like to sit rather than stand all day...I was quite enjoying the weather while it wasn't raining...

All his crew would leave at 3:30pm, but I would stay there...that was the best time for me...I pulled the jeep down by my logs, turned up the radio, relaxed with an ice tea and enjoyed the afternoon...life don't get much better than that...white pine shaves so nicely with a hand plane and a chisel...

(and thanks for the rep back!  )


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## BobL (Feb 27, 2010)

Yeah I love hand tools as well but I will draw the line at cutting up a log manually. 

Even though I'm legally deaf I don't like the sound of powertools either, but it's more things like angle grinders and electric planers and sanders than set my teeth on edge and I wear the highest quality ear muffs and plugs I can afford if and when working with them. Maybe its because I grew up with chainsaws that I don't mind them. I respect all power tools but the one I respect the most (more than the 880) is my 12" table saw, that thing is a brute of a thing if its not treated right.


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## Brmorgan (Feb 28, 2010)

BobL said:


> Yeah I love hand tools as well but I will draw the line at cutting up a log manually.
> 
> Even though I'm legally deaf I don't like the sound of powertools either, but it's more things like angle grinders and electric planers and sanders than set my teeth on edge and I wear the highest quality ear muffs and plugs I can afford if and when working with them. Maybe its because I grew up with chainsaws that I don't mind them. I respect all power tools but the one I respect the most (more than the 880) is my 12" table saw, that thing is a brute of a thing if its not treated right.



+1 on that; an angle grinder on thin sheet can put even my 090 at full throttle to shame. Most saws don't bother my ears all that much, but those little brushed Universal-style motors can be incredibly loud and ear-piercing.

I treat my tablesaw with about as much respect as a rabid pit bull. I've seen the results of way too many tablesaw accidents.

I don't think that many people would argue that a CSM is superior to a bandmill or swingmill overall; but they have their uses. I don't have equipment to move a 36" Fir deadfall log out of the bush, but I could easily chop it into 12" cants or something that I can manage with the quad. Also CSMing is certainly not the most cost effective form of milling, but it IS the most affordable to get started with, especially if you already have a suitably large powersaw to use with one - $500 could get you an Alaskan, a Mini-Mill, and a few other useful tools that will come in handy.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 28, 2010)

BobL said:


> I respect all power tools but the one I respect the most (more than the 880) is my 12" table saw, that thing is a brute of a thing if its not treated right.


I have a 16" table saw with a 5HP direct drive motor. It's a Yates-American, built in the 40s. It is a machine to respect. It will take an 18" blade, but Yates recommended to use a 16"...

The table base is solid cast iron and weighs 1600 lbs. The table is scraped.

The problem with table saws and vertical bandsaws is that it's not so easy to leverage a large cant over them....on the arbor of a 5HP 3 Phase Louis Allis motor. Takes a minute and a half to spin down after you turn it off.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 1, 2010)

Well guys...we all mulled over yet again when we will choose a BSM, over a CSM...I myself _can_ carry my CSM...I _cannot_ carry the tree. It's cut where it falls...do that with your BSM. oke: The cost of a BSM in comparison, should include the cost of equipment to move a tree to be a fair comparison. 

When I buy used equipment...I zero time them and then record fuel through them, if there is no other way to measure the use. That is usually just a going over but give it pistons and rings. 
I threw out the 25 hrs before inspection number in the other post since I don't have a better one at this time (I use 25 hrs for air cooled, 30hrs for water cooled two stroke race machines). I'm hoping to see how Mtngun goes now that he has an hour meter on his setup and keeps quoting cut times in 'run hours'. So far my 25 hrs before inspection looks very conservative but I do feel counting running hours... is far better than material cut, and would rather open it up and match ring end gap to compression until I have a better number to work with.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 1, 2010)

> The cost of a BSM in comparison, should include the cost of equipment to move a tree to be a fair comparison.



Then, unless you are walking from your house with your CSM to the tree, YOU should include the cost of your car, van or pickup to get your CSM to the tree. One thing is for sure, either i'm moving that tree, OR you are moving your mill!

Ooooh you say you already have a car or pu? Well, i already have the means to move a log... And if it's TOO big, i can use my $50.00 Husky 55 to free hand split it so i can. 

I've drug out more than a few logs with a pu, and even a couple with an old car.

DM


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## mtngun (Mar 1, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> When I buy used equipment...I zero time them and then record fuel through them, if there is no other way to measure the use.


I'm guessing you have a background in aircraft or nuclear maintenance, to have such excellent record keeping habits ? 



> I'm hoping to see how Mtngun goes now that he has an hour meter on his setup and keeps quoting cut times in 'run hours'.


I didn't anticipate using that hour meter feature but have to admit it is useful. Like BobL, I'm a dataholic. Anything that can be measured, should be measured. :biggrinbounce2:


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## BobL (Mar 1, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Anything that can be measured, should be measured. :biggrinbounce2:



Yep - that's my day job so it comes natural for me to do this. I also have a number of different sensors that can be connected into a computer for data logging. And what I can't find in my shed I can often scrounge a loan of at work.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 2, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I'm guessing you have a background in aircraft or nuclear maintenance, to have such excellent record keeping habits ?



Geez...I guess it shows. :blush: Yup...irreplaceable antique aircraft. Lots of racing (bikes/cars), Fleet maintenance (for bikes which is different), Nuclear parts, Military parts. Lots of paperwork.
The game in all of those industries is quite different than managing your own equipment. I certainly don't run equipment like any of those industries. A failing part in those disciplines is death (well...lots of money, or lost history too). My failure is _just_ money....
As for records for my stuff...that's easier than you think. But I do keep them. You and Bobl put yourself on the data collection crew....I'm over here interested in different data, while waiting for access to my porting software to correct the stupid 660 port timing I found after a full measurement. I just collect a little data. I'll pass on the cut times, cutter profiles. I'll read about them from you.


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## mtngun (Mar 2, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> A failing part in those disciplines is death (well...lots of money, or lost history too).


I understand. I spent some time working in a plant that made high liability products -- the chips for heart pacemakers, automotive anti-lock brakes, the controls in Boeing jets, etc -- every little move we made had to documented and witnessed, every little change had to be approved by a review board, etc.. 



> waiting for access to my porting software to correct the stupid 660 port timing I found after a full measurement. .


Andrew, I am just beginning to get "into" the art and science of porting, particularly for the 066/660, so I'd love to hear what you have learned about the 660. Did you come to essentially the same conclusion as Timberwolf. 

I love the 066/660. It's the Chevy Small Block of chainsaws. It's readily available, built like a tank, easy to work on, and lots of aftermarket and used parts are available. Yet it's practical performance -- the mid range power desired for milling -- is handicapped by scewball port timing and tame compression. 

I was hoping that the 2nd generation BB kits would correct some of the port timing issues, but if I understand Grande Dog correctly, he RAISED the exhaust port on the 2nd generation jug.......


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## Andrew96 (Mar 2, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Andrew, I am just beginning to get "into" the art and science of porting, particularly for the 066/660, so I'd love to hear what you have learned about the 660. Did you come to essentially the same conclusion as Timberwolf.



Well maybe. I'm not going to draw any conclusions yet. I'm supposed to be quite good at developing 2 strokes with a broad torque curve and longevity. At least some people seem to think so and contract me for my opinion...well not in a few years now 4 strokes are everywhere. I'm "into" valvetrain harmonics now which is quite different. The 2 stroke history I have is also with a tuned exhaust, even way back with air cooled stuff we always had pipes to match ports and case volumes. These saws don't have one.....just a box!!!. Stihl put a perforated cover over the exhaust port to negate the negative wave, or any formation. That upsets everything. You think you're confused..that's baffling (literally too). If it's a one sided engine, like it looks to be...why the low compression? I've never plugged in specs for a 2 stroke without any pipe specs so until I (if I might say)...backwards engineer it. I don't understand why they did what they did. They seem to have every other detail well engineered. Right now I'm going to have to assume..they know more than me. Since I don't own the software I have to wait for a job before I have access to it. Until then..a little research and speculation is all I can do. I don't have any experience with saws but I think the limiting factor is it's air cooled, no variable exhaust port, not even a pipe!, can't change the head easily, so there is only so much you can do. I think it works amazingly well for it's displacement and porting...but there should be some more there without a pipe and the fuel I run. Well..who knows what anymore...it's not like I've ever seen a dyno curve for one, 1hp per ci (as advertised) is good but over such a small rpm. It would be fun to get some dyno time...don't know how I'd harness it though. Might have to be summer project.



mtngun said:


> I love the 066/660. It's the Chevy Small Block of chainsaws. It's readily available, built like a tank, easy to work on, and lots of aftermarket and used parts are available. Yet it's practical performance -- the mid range power desired for milling -- is handicapped by scewball port timing and tame compression.
> 
> I was hoping that the 2nd generation BB kits would correct some of the port timing issues, but if I understand Grande Dog correctly, he RAISED the exhaust port on the 2nd generation jug.......



Small block chevy syndrome is why I decided to hunt one down. I think of it to be more of a 80s smog small block though (small valves low lift/dur cam), the way it 'seems' to be setup.

I've read a lot of Timberwolfs posts. He seems to have developed his own model and has proven results. I'd expect to pay for all the work he did..and might go that route if I cannot work back to the same stock specs on my own. 

I haven't tracked down Grande Dogs work yet, but will now you wrote his name out. I shouldn't really comment without reading up on what he did but many people go for earlier exhaust and rev it...it's good on some designs, easy to do, narrows the rpm band though. I like to target other areas first. Your BB kit looks to be a simple copy cat(from what I've read), too bad really. I was interested at first, until I read about your frustrations and it had the same porting specs. Watch out with these low compression thoughts...I've read your comments before..though in the case of the stock 660 I think it's a little low with the porting chosen. Good 2 stroke design has what you might call a variable compression ratio. At certain rpms the cylinder will get overfilled. On a 2 stroke the effective compression ratio is higher, unlike say a 4 stroke (nat aspirated) where it's usually always lower. Some call this on the pipe..the power band. It's not as cut and dry as simply..a low static compression. High compression with short timing isn't going to make torque. If their porting model shows a spike in VI at some RPM..they will have to keep the static down for you so you can run any fuel. 

Ahaaa...Maybe they developed that BB kit from a generic porting model...I didn't think of that until I wrote all of the above. The model is just a bunch of best guesses and assumptions (some actual facts..but not unless you developed it yourself). You use the model as a tool..not a design, someone should have told them that.


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## mtngun (Mar 2, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> .Maybe they developed that BB kit from a generic porting model...


I'm pretty sure on the 1st gen BB, Bailey's just sent an OEM P&C to the vendor and said "copy this, except make the bore 2mm bigger."

To prevent the wider piston from hitting the crankcase, they had to shorten the skirt ...... which free ported the exhaust. A lot of people complained about that.

To cure the free port issue, the 2nd gen kit lifts the bottom of the exhaust port 2mm. I'm cool with that. But then they raised the top of the exhaust port 2mm, too, which concerns me, going by what Timberwolf says about 660 porting.

Since port work is new to me, I'm not the right person to say what's wrong and how to fix it. I'll just sit on the sidelines and watch, and hope a good deal comes along on a used 084/088/880 or 3120.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 3, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I'll just sit on the sidelines and watch, and hope a good deal comes along on a used 084/088/880 or 3120.



Free porting is basic...I haven't seen that on a manufactured engine in a very long time..though I don't do saws until my own...after market parts...I think I'd try to send them back. I have to admit that I didn't realize the 660 exh. porting was so short until after I hunted one down. I would have liked an 880 just for displacement (chev big block) but one never came along. I haven't looked at any problems with that setup either though. There certainly isn't an easy quick fix for the 660. I'm not used to a fixed head, no pipe and not many pistons to choose from.

No more time to read this morning but...I stumbled across your stepped dome post. I'd love full time access to a CNC BTW. I don't even have an NC at home so I have to work a bit harder. 
A couple of points without hijacking the post. Your compression does seem really low..stupid low. Low enough to question and confirm. I thought I might suggest a couple of things...maybe you have tried them already. Low compression could = poor ring sealing (high exhaust aside). New rings won't seal worth their weight in a funny bore. Easy concept. However, have you measured your bore to see if it's really round? Is you piston really round? Rings won't seat riding a funny shaped piston. You can feed a standard bore gauge in and around the ports to see if it's really cylindrical. One reason why I hate using cast pistons. I've measured them changing shape after a couple of heat cycles. More than 0.001" change! I've seen cylinders that are all over the place, or dips if you'd like that could allow for poor ring sealing. I'm sure you've looked at end gap. What shape rings came with your BBkit? Crowned or tapered.... or can you run them upside down? Not all are marked. 
One way to see if you are really getting a good seal is a wet compression test. I didn't see any figures you posted from a wet compression. Add some oil to your bore, nice wet walls and see if you get a better number. You will..but how much better? I use it as a quick and dirty method to determine if you should rering or not without measuring end gap. 
Have you matched your compression tester to a known good gauge..or even another one? I'd expect you have done these little things but skimming...I didn't see the results. 5000' just isn't really that high enough to loose 30psi. (off the top of my head without tables).


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## mtngun (Mar 3, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> 5000' just isn't really that high enough to loose 30psi. (off the top of my head without tables).


The quick and dirty rule of thumb is 3% per 1000 feet, so expect a 15% loss. If the average sea level compression is 150 psi (seems average for the 660), it would be down to 128 psi here (or 137 psi at Williams Lake, BC  ).

I may have made some progress on the OEM jug's compression but want to put another tank through it before jumping to any conclusions.

I don't claim to know a durned thing about the physics of free porting, but just for the heck of it I may do a pop up on my old BB kit -- which would make the free port even worse -- and see what happens.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 3, 2010)

mtngun said:


> The quick and dirty rule of thumb is 3% per 1000 feet, so expect a 15% loss. If the average sea level compression is 150 psi (seems average for the 660), it would be down to 128 psi here (*or 137 psi at Williams Lake, BC  *).
> 
> I may have made some progress on the OEM jug's compression but want to put another tank through it before jumping to any conclusions.
> 
> I don't claim to know a durned thing about the physics of free porting, but just for the heck of it I may do a pop up on my old BB kit -- which would make the free port even worse -- and see what happens.



Awww.... You thought of me! How sweet! :monkey:

LOL....


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## Andrew96 (Mar 4, 2010)

Well I have a lot more catching up to do to get to where you are, I can see. No sense going down a road everyone else has reviewed already. I did a quick review of my cylinder then put it back together to get milling (too excited). Glad you have a P/C to play with.
Free porting can be a leak of your collected charge (I'm sure you know) You'd like it packed into the case..hopefully more than the volume would dictate....but then after successfully overfilling the case...you let it go. Not only will you loose some of your charge, you could alter the flow direction, swirl, you could cool the wrong 1/2 of the piston creating funny wear problems, leave the piston unsupported, again, creating wear problems, ring flutter etc etc. The unburned charge out the pipe would reduce your header temp (well..there isnt' one here) but I'm sure it does offer some reflected wave. The exhaust would be nasty if you measured it so OEM can't do it..HP leaking out really. The increase in compression might offset some of this though. One little change effects everything..you can really only guess the outcome...then....expect to be wrong. Uncovering the port, loosing your charge, leaving your piston hanging just before you whack it with a spark is asking for trouble. This bad situation just might mean living with...altering your expected live time for that piston/ring. Change it and keep going.


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## mtngun (Mar 4, 2010)

Yeah, I was just kicking ideas around....... having to rethink my plans since the 2nd gen BB kit is no longer a good option.

BTW, here's an excellent thread comparing the 660's screwy port timing to the BB's even screwier port timing. Martinm210's 660 port data

And some of his data. Note the BB exhaust port is higher and the top edge is flat instead of curved. Bad, bad, bad.





Numbers for 660 jug. I'm told the older 066 jugs had saner exhaust timing. The changes to compression and timing may be related to emissions.





Numbers for 1st gen BB jug. On 2nd gen BB, exhaust opens even sooner (2mm higher). 





Sorry for hijacking your thread, Kicker.  Any progress on the 880 ?


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## Brmorgan (Mar 4, 2010)

Well after looking at those maps, I can see why a lot of folks say you won't see much if any for gains with the BB kit. The transfers are tiny in comparison! Is the exhaust port in the OEM port map stock though? If so, it's a fair bit different than the three cylinders I have here. They're much more squared off on the sides and _look_ wider but I don't know for sure.


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## mtngun (Mar 4, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Is the exhaust port in the OEM port map stock though? If so, it's a fair bit different than the three cylinders I have here. They're much more squared off on the sides and _look_ wider but I don't know for sure.


Yes, the OEM is stock. His OEM specs are similar to what Timberwolf has posted pm another thread. Seems typical for 660 jugs. Supposedly the older 066 jugs had saner exhaust timing. 

If you would post maps of those old jugs of yours............. then we could compare notes.

Here's Timberwolf's 660 OEM map.


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## Kicker_92 (Mar 4, 2010)

Not to bring this thread back on topic, but picked up a replacement used bottom end for the 385xp with a good crank. Will be in the process of swapping over parts this weekend, then hopefully back to milling again.

Without the alternate saw, I've been reluctant to setup the rails to start cutting another log. Will hopefully be able to resolve the surging problem on the MS880 now.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 5, 2010)

Kicker...good to hear you have a new bottom end going in so you can get out of the shop and start playing some more. It didn't sound like you changed your porting on the 880 enough to cause inversion.

Seems I cannot come to the party without a map of my '09 660. I'll have to do that and crunch some numbers. I did some measurements comparing to to TW dims but was only close. Maybe another small step was made to lower the peak cylinder pressure in an effort to reduce emissions...add service life via skirt support at the expense of BMEP? They could be worried about the restrictive 3/8" exhaust as well...let it bleed longer. Certainly isn't a lot of options with this type of cylinder (C + head all in one) and no pipe. It's quite limiting in what you can do. I was pleased with it's stock performance not ever even seeing a saw over 60cc before. (sheltered life I guess).
Too bad about the Gdogs BB kit change for R2....I think I'm up to speed on the BB now. I would have thought they would have made some changes on another run to lower the Ex duration and pick up some volume on the intake to cover the increased displacement, improve VI and make a torquer (if that was the goal), but I'm sure it came down the cost of altering the castings vs the number of C. sold. (afford only 1 change...right or wrong). With the R1 version, they may have tried higher intake velocity to cover the extra bore and volume with the smaller In. ports, Who knows if the angles were changed though. The early exhaust opening, with the long duration seems to require a large volume chamber to get it through. Without a pipe...I cannot imagine it getting a clean full charge. They certainly didn't intend on it being reved out when comparing In. volume to stock...yet they have lower compression...contradictory...or...longevity with the heavier piston? 
Did ignition timing change between the 066 and the 660?


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## mtngun (Mar 5, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> I did some measurements comparing to to TW dims but was only close.


I believe TW merely used a pencil & paper port map to determine timing, not a degree wheel, though I could be wrong. Point being, a paper map is only approximate so you would expect a little variation from one person's map to the next.



> Maybe another small step was made to lower the peak cylinder pressure in an effort to reduce emissions...add service life via skirt support at the expense of BMEP? They could be worried about the restrictive 3/8" exhaust as well...let it bleed longer.


Are you saying your 660 has even more exhaust duration that TW's ? How's your compression ?

Regarding the BB, Baileys has no engineering staff, and it's getting painfully obvious.that they are in over their heads. I wish them the best of luck, but I suspect they will eventually accept their limitations and retreat to more modest projects. 

For example, instead of continuing to struggle with the 066 BB, it might be easier for them to make a carbon copy of a pre-emissions 066 jug. No engineering required, and there definitely would be a market for such a thing.

Speaking of which, I've been searching old threads for a port map of a pre-emissions cylinder, but haven't found one yet. Just anecdotal comments by Jacob and Lakeside to the effect that the old cylinders had more compression and less exhaust duration. 



> Did ignition timing change between the 066 and the 660?


Hmmmmm..... there have been changes to flywheels and coils, but I not sure about the timing numbers. Either Jacob or 04Ultra should be able to tell you, though.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 6, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I believe TW merely used a pencil & paper port map to determine timing, not a degree wheel, though I could be wrong. Point being, a paper map is only approximate so you would expect a little variation from one person's map to the next.
> 
> Are you saying your 660 has even more exhaust duration that TW's ? How's your compression ?



I didn't think he used a wheel either. I measured things up a bit..then did a quick TDC and ex duration. I don't have my book here but I do remember it was 'around' 5deg longer duration (somewhere near 180!). TWs duration was high for such an oversquare engine...mine was higher. I had expected to see peak HP at 11-12 k with that but that isn't so. The objective was to inspect and measure for wear and get milling! so I didn't do a full work up. I still get 150 and 155wet compression. Not high but that's my baseline. I 'feel', my cylinder isn't the same as the one he was working over, it wasn't close enough to his one that I felt I was looking at measurement variations. 




mtngun said:


> Regarding the BB, Baileys has no engineering staff, and it's getting painfully obvious.that they are in over their heads. I wish them the best of luck, but I suspect they will eventually accept their limitations and retreat to more modest projects.
> 
> For example, instead of continuing to struggle with the 066 BB, it might be easier for them to make a carbon copy of a pre-emissions 066 jug. No engineering required, and there definitely would be a market for such a thing.



It's too bad really. 2 stroke technology, I feel, reached it's zenith 20 years ago. There is a lot of knowledge sitting around not be used. That's one type of fun work I have had...recasting old assemblies....better. You don't make much doing it. They could have found someone to help if they wanted. However, a carbon copy with a bigger bore isn't the correct answer either. I'm sure it would have worked better than what they chose to do but leave the door open for guys like TW to make money. Clearly they didn't pass out prototypes to the right people.



mtngun said:


> Speaking of which, I've been searching old threads for a port map of a pre-emissions cylinder, but haven't found one yet. Just anecdotal comments by Jacob and Lakeside to the effect that the old cylinders had more compression and less exhaust duration.
> 
> Hmmmmm..... there have been changes to flywheels and coils, but I not sure about the timing numbers. Either Jacob or 04Ultra should be able to tell you, though.



I hope you are searching all over the web...I bet you are. I'd certainly be interested in seeing an old style map. I suspect you are 'just' going to find a longer swept volume since there isn't much left on the table here. But I'd love to see it.

Retarding timing is just another trick for lower emissions. It seems if they reduced compression, they may have retarded ignition too. I don't see any posts around with guys pushing timing.


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## huskyhank (Mar 6, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> snipped.....
> 
> Retarding timing is just another trick for lower emissions. It seems if they reduced compression, they may have retarded ignition too. I don't see any posts around with guys pushing timing.



They're doing it, just not telling about it much. Its usually mentioned in passing.


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## mtngun (Mar 6, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> However, a carbon copy with a bigger bore isn't the correct answer either.


I meant a carbon copy with 54mm bore. The 56mm bore creates all kinds of design headaches and fails to produce more power. Life would be simpler if they stuck with the original bore size.



> Clearly they didn't pass out prototypes to the right people.


It is tempting to blame the field testers. Certainly Brad Snelling has been a lightning rod for criticism lately.

I would like to see some things done differently on these product tests, things like cc'ing the chamber and mapping the ports, similar to TW's 460/660 write up. 

And timed cuts milling a cant, instead of merely cutting cookies. A peaky, high rpm saw may excel at cutting cookies yet suck at milling. A milling saw should have a broader power band with grunt.

But, the bottom line is that it's the manufacturer's responsibility, and some of the design flaws that have been pointed out are not rocket science. Bailey's just doesn't have the technical staff to do design.


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## Kicker_92 (Mar 7, 2010)

*It's Alive!!!*

The 385xp now looks like an almost new saw again! Finished cleaning everthing up and reassembled the fully stripped down case with all clean parts with grease and locktite where needed. 

Fired it up today, and it runs like a champ. Nice burble at wide open throttle, and pulls hard in the cut. Just knocked off a couple 30" cookies to test it out, will be back to milling duty next week.

So temping to do some work on that cylinder while it was out, but after the glitches on the MS880, figured it's best just left alone.


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## MR4WD (Mar 7, 2010)

Awesome; Where did you get the bottom end? I know it would be nice to have a ported mill saw, but I think it's best to fight the urge. Clearly you're blowing up bottom ends on stock saws anyways! It might be worth it to open up the exhaust while it was apart, a saw can never run too cool in the cut!


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## mtngun (Mar 7, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> Fired it up today, and it runs like a champ. Nice burble at wide open throttle, and pulls hard in the cut.


Good work, Kicker. :rockn:


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## Kicker_92 (Mar 14, 2010)

MR4WD said:


> I know it would be nice to have a ported mill saw, but I think it's best to fight the urge.



A week ago I would have agreed, but not after running that saw today... Very happy with it.

It pulls much stronger now, and will happily cruise along at 9,500rpm in the cut with very low rakers.

It was a lot of work to get to this point, but really came down to finding the problem that caused the 880 to go lean before, which melted the piston. Ended up coming down to a carb kit and new fuel filter. 

With milling, the saw pretty much allways stays on it's side. There is much less room for crud to accumulate in the gas tank away from the fuel filter. I'd recommed checking / changing fuel filters a bit mroe often on a milling saw now.


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## mtngun (Mar 14, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> It was a lot of work to get to this point, but really came down to finding the problem that caused the 880 to go lean before, which melted the piston. Ended up coming down to a carb kit and new fuel filter.


Kicker, are you saying the 880's surge is fixed, and it was either the fuel filter and/or carb kit ?

Good on you for figuring it out.


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## BobL (Mar 14, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> With milling, the saw pretty much allways stays on it's side. There is much less room for crud to accumulate in the gas tank away from the fuel filter. I'd recommed checking / changing fuel filters a bit mroe often on a milling saw now.



Every few months I dump and rinse out the mix tank on my saws with fresh gas. It's quite instructive to dump the fuel into a transparent container and see how much crud ends up getting into the mix tank.

Another thing I observe is a number of operators, including myself, forgetting to put the cap back on the mix can.


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## Kicker_92 (Mar 14, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Kicker, are you saying the 880's surge is fixed, and it was either the fuel filter and/or carb kit ?



Yes, and now it runs great with the high set to around 1 turn out, and a 10% larger jet drilled out. Tuned it to just under the 11,500 rpm limit, and it four strokes as soon as you let pressure off in the cut, but clears up nice when the chain meets the wood.

I think a big source of crud on the MS880 was refueling during a long cut. With all that sawdust floating around, I'm sure a lot drifted in.

Nice to have both saws up and running again, we chunked out a 14ft x 28" fir into some beams today, I'm happy with the way the 880 turned out even after the long troubleshooting.


Thank for everyones help on this one!


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## mtngun (Mar 14, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> we chunked out a 14ft x 28" fir into some beams today


But ....... where's the pictures ?


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## huskyhank (Mar 14, 2010)

mtngun said:


> But ....... where's the pictures ?



No pictures = didn't happen.


:biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2:


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## Kicker_92 (Mar 14, 2010)

No pictures this weekend, but here a shot of a differant log the 880 was working on:


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## huskyhank (Mar 14, 2010)

Cool!
I've never cut anything near that long.

What are the chains for on your log pile?


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## BobL (Mar 14, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> No pictures this weekend, but here a shot of a differant log the 880 was working on:



Great shot!

Do you have any problems with the exhaust bouncing off such a big flat surface on the side of the cant?


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## MR4WD (Mar 14, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> No pictures this weekend, but here a shot of a differant log the 880 was working on:
> ]



Nice! What are you using for top rails? Doing any milling during the week? I'll be in the lower mainland for the next week or two. PM me if you're milling any beams!


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## Brmorgan (Mar 15, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> No pictures this weekend, but here a shot of a differant log the 880 was working on:



Nice! I have to cut a 26' 6X12 out of a Fir log that's out behind my place here pretty soon. I'm putting it across the back of the truck shop so I can build an upper level for storage back there.


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