# Professional Cabling in Large Trees



## jomoco (Nov 7, 2008)

I have about 20K worth of cabling to do before xmas this year in less than 5 trees.

These are large historic trees here in San Diego, the bulk of which are repairing amateurs screw ups in trees that should never have been cabled in the first place. But as all journeymen know, once a tree has been cabled for more than 5 years, removing that cable becomes a liability no sane arborist will risk. 

The bulk of this cabling will be in two giant torrey pines right on the beach here in PB. The cables were installed by amateurs decades ago improperly, the angles of cable to hardware were so far off that the prevailing ocean breeze torqued and twisted the main leaders to the point that one of them failed. This high traffic pedestrian area of beach boardwalk being subject to 24 inch lateral branch failure from these two giants are what led to my involvement on this project.

I am somewhat astonished that the HOA is willing to pay me 15K to cable these trees properly when removing them with a 120 ton hydrocrane would only cost 13K.

I want to video this contract along with another similar cabling contract involving an historic moreton bay fig with a time lapse video camera on a tripod.

Any suggestions on the best camera to video these cabling jobs with would be appreciated. I won't be starting till mid november.

Any suggestions Ekka or others?

Why would a cabler need a Hobb's device in the contracts described above?

jomoco


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## M.D. Vaden (Nov 7, 2008)

Why don't you contact a local college and ask for an instructor pertaining to video recording - maybe get a referral of a student who can do it for a project. Doubt they would send a bozo if you say it's got to be done decent. And they probably would not need to be there all day every day when you are.

One idea anyhow.

Or are you thinking helmet cam too?

Is one of these a huge sprawling fig I've seen in imags for San Diego ??

There are some groovy trees down there. I walked around there, part of L.A. and also the area in between which I recall may have called Oceanside - yes?


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## tomtrees58 (Nov 7, 2008)

you don't used a hobb s to cable  tom trees


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## rbtree (Nov 7, 2008)

Ummm...what if you need to take some sag out of a limb in order to achieve proper tension on the cable, or make the install easier? If it's a large limb, a GRCS or Hobbs would be just the ticket...quick and easy to set up as well.

Jomoco, will you be installing static or dynamic? Either way, I hope you'll consider some of the new systems, which employ static hi-mod lines, if static is the choice. Of course, these are non invasive as well.

I'd love to come help, or record the event..but work is way too busy. 

For still photography, there's a device called an intervalometer, that will take a series of shots over a specified time span, at your chosen intervals. I don't know if the same could be made to work for video.

Alternatively, get a Canon VF-10 (I think that's the model) Get several 16 gig SD cards, an extra battery, and set it up on a tripod. 

But, as a photographer, i know that the best results will be if the camera and photographer/videographer is mobile. The ability to shoot from many perspectives, including in the tree with ya (or from a bucket or another tree) is key.

I'm in the market for a videocam, and think that the latest flash memory based camcorders are the cat's meow. That Canon can be had for about $700, and shoots 1080P HD video. I'm also planned to soon get a helmet cam, and will be hard pressed to find anything that measures up to the Vio POV-1, which is $679.

Of course, I'm a gear junkie, and will also be getting a Canon 5D Mkll--don't know when, as I haven't preordered one (They aren't even due in stores till late Nov) Amazing camera, 21.1 mp and it shoots 1080P vid as well-the first SLR to do so, and just the 2nd to shoot video of any kind. The thought of shooting vid through my expensive Canon LD glass is mouthwatering.


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## masiman (Nov 7, 2008)

I'd take a look at some of Reg's video work. He uses a VIO-POV.1 I just received my B&H (pro camera/video store in NYC) catalog this week. They had a few models listed. I think most were in the $300 range, and the POV.1 was $700. But from all the reviews I have seen, the POV.1 is "the" helmet cam to get. I was thinking of the cam as a quick and easy way to document close up portions of what you found and what you did. Much easier than taking a P&S camera to document. Reg's video is slick in that he switches between the different cameras fairly effectively.

Good luck on the job! I hope it goes well.

I was typing when rbtree posted, I think I am in sync with his comments.


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## treeseer (Nov 7, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I am somewhat astonished that the HOA is willing to pay me 15K to cable these trees properly when removing them with a 120 ton hydrocrane would only cost 13K.


So for 2k they get to retain the trees' contributions with greatly reduced risk. Sounds like a bargain.


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## clearance (Nov 7, 2008)

treeseer said:


> So for 2k they get to retain the trees' contributions with greatly reduced risk. Sounds like a bargain.



Or 2k more to prolong thier life, at the risk of a human life in the future. Let us hope that someone does not say in the future that it would have only cost 13k to save a life, human that is.


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## masiman (Nov 7, 2008)

Uh-oh, a life of tree vs. life and property of humans war.....

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## treeseer (Nov 7, 2008)

masiman said:


> Uh-oh, a life of tree vs. life and property of humans war.....
> 
> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:



Truce has been declared 10,000 threads ago; sorry.


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## masiman (Nov 7, 2008)

> Or 2k more to prolong thier life, at the risk of a human life in the future. Let us hope that someone does not say in the future that it would have only cost 13k to save a life, human that is.



Apparently all is not forgotten...oke: awaiting the rockets red glare

<---Check her out, she thinks this is funny hiding behind those Bug Eyez.

I remain opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## jomoco (Nov 7, 2008)

rbtree said:


> Ummm...what if you need to take some sag out of a limb in order to achieve proper tension on the cable, or make the install easier? If it's a large limb, a GRCS or Hobbs would be just the ticket...quick and easy to set up as well.
> 
> Jomoco, will you be installing static or dynamic? Either way, I hope you'll consider some of the new systems, which employ static hi-mod lines, if static is the choice. Of course, these are non invasive as well.
> 
> ...



I'm very oldschool about my cabling RB, 7strand with tree grips, drop forged galvinized through bolts.

The two torreys will get a total of 22 cables, 7 new and 15 existing cables reolaced, some of them with an incredible amount of tension on them, which is why I'll be using a Hobb's and leverage to replace them safely.

The hardest part of cabling in my opinion is getting the cable and bolt angles drilled perfectly true in a straight line.

I've been thinking about some kind of attachable drill jig to get a 1/4 inch pilot hole about 8 inches deep and perfectly true to the cable angle and dead center on the leader being cabled.

I may go with the helmet cam if it's only 700 bucks and not too bulky or fragile.

Should be an interesting job in that these highrise condos were originally built around these torrey pines which now tower over each bldg's roof.

One is truly massive and has a 5 foot DBH.

I intend to post pics and video of this job as it progresses in this thread.

Thanks guys.

jomoco


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## murphy4trees (Nov 8, 2008)

*high cables...hand tight*

I AM an EHS cable/through bolt kind of guy too.. 

I AM also pretty anal about getting the holes drilled straight in line with the cable. That is a detaill I take very seriously as it is not just a cable that is effected. It is the life of the tree and the potential damage to human life and property. I've seen world class climbers drill nearly 45 degrees off and consider that acceptable. 

Are you climbing solo... It is always easier to get the holes straight when two climbers are both in place and can eyeball the angle of the drill for each other. Two climbers also make it a lot easier to get the cables put in high. That is another thing I AM pretty anal about. I try to exceed 2/3 the height from union to tips, sometimes going quite a bit higher. The leverage is just so much better with even a few extra feet in height. 

15K for 22 cables is quite a project.. I like to get 225-300 per cable and occasionally get 400 for really big trees. So good on ya for getting that kind of money... How many days are you thinking? I'd set up two climber each with their own drill and cable bag, then use a mini throw line to fish the cable. With a system like that, I doubt there are any 22 cables that Jim Roach and his climbing partner would need more than 2 days to get right. 

Also one question... why replace cables? Existing cables are almost always too low anyhow.. Why go to all the trouble? Wouldn't the trees be better off with new cables up high where they belong?

High cables... hand tight... better for the tree.. easier to instal if you use two climbers that know how to climb.

Good luck on the project...


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## tree MDS (Nov 8, 2008)

Sounds like its gonna be some REEAALLYY boring helmet cam, lol.

Sorry jomoco, couldnt resist that one.


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## custom8726 (Nov 8, 2008)

I will watch it, 15k for 22 cables would be unheard of here though. Most people cringe at 250.00 per cable in N.Y.


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## jomoco (Nov 8, 2008)

murphy4trees said:


> I AM an EHS cable/through bolt kind of guy too..
> 
> I AM also pretty anal about getting the holes drilled straight in line with the cable. That is a detaill I take very seriously as it is not just a cable that is effected. It is the life of the tree and the potential damage to human life and property. I've seen world class climbers drill nearly 45 degrees off and consider that acceptable.
> 
> ...



You put your finger on exactly how I became involved in this cabling challenge.

What you say about leaving the old cables intact is very true Murph, but only if those old cables were properly installed with true angles.

I got the call on this job after one of the cabled 2 foot dia leaders on the largest torrey failed, right over the beach boardwalk and pool area of that bldg. They wanted to know why the leader failed, and what the liabilities were for both trees in the longterm.

After inspecting the trees from the ground, it was very obvious to me what the problem was, amateur cabling, decades old, with almost every dang cable out of true with the through bolt angles. With the daily onshore winds nailing these out of angle cables, the leader has no choice but to twist towards true alignment everytime a wind of sufficient force hits them each day. Over time this twisting inevitably leads to structural failure of the improperly cabled leader leader.

After getting consults and bids from the top tree firms, I was somewhat shocked to find that mine was chosen despite being the most expensive. It turns out that every other bid and recommendation was for removal of the trees with a large crane. The HOA board wanted these old giant historic torrey pines saved if humanly possible.

I charged them big bucks about 7 months ago to climb each tree, inspect each cable, and write a full report on each tree with detailed recommendations.

Believe it or not, the idiot that cabled the laterals on the smaller of the trees used friggin lags! In a softwood pine! What an idiot! And to make matters worse, when I checked the managers records on the many firms that had installed these bogus cables over the years, one of my big euc heroes from the 70's had installed atleast 6 cables! A friend and colleague. I immediately called him and told him straight up that someone in his company had screwed up. To my relief, it was not him but one of his amateur climbers that installed the bogus cables, so I ragged him about his responsibilities as a business owner and let it go.

Now you can understand why I am charging premium coin to get these magnificent trees finally cabled professionally. I intend to take my time and do it right, with two helpers below me to maintain such a large safety zone.

I figured about 10 work days, including deadwooding and new cables.

Any of you guys ever rod an old crossover together and have it meld together completely enough to hide the hardware inside?

jomoco


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 8, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Any of you guys ever rod an old crossover together and have it meld together completely enough to hide the hardware inside?
> 
> jomoco



I've not been doing it long enough. Maybe a few with eye bolts getting engulfed.



> The hardest part of cabling in my opinion is getting the cable and bolt angles drilled perfectly true in a straight line.



Attach a laser pointer to some rod, drill the first hole and insert the rod and the laser site will tell you where to drill. then when the drillman starts the hole, he gets the "dot" on the back of the drill to keep it all inline.

Someone inventive enough should be able to make a plug for the drill hole that will be even more accurate, just like a breach mount laser siting kit for firearms.


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## jomoco (Nov 8, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've not been doing it long enough. Maybe a few with eye bolts getting engulfed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm with you JPS, I firmly believe that an attachable laser sighting pilot drill jig would be a totally marketable new arborist tool.

Are their any American drill manufacturers in the cordless market?

I can see an attachable C clamp adjustable jig, and a little 1/4 inch cordless drill punching an exact 8 inch deep pilot hole on a laser tracked tracked mechanism that slides back and forth with spring pressure.

I'd pay big bucks for a mechanism that guaranteed perfect cable alignment everytime!

jomoco


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## jomoco (Nov 8, 2008)

Great Scott!

I just figured out how to get perfect alignment with one simple tool.

Is this lucky US patent number 7?

Thanks JPS!

You're a genius!

jomoco


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 8, 2008)

I think you are overthinking it, German Engineering vs KISS principle.

If you have a mark on the back of the drill that is in line with the axis of the bit, then you just have to keep the "dot" on that mark.

Just put my fees on my tab


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## jomoco (Nov 8, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I think you are overthinking it, German Engineering vs KISS principle.
> 
> If you have a mark on the back of the drill that is in line with the axis of the bit, then you just have to keep the "dot" on that mark.
> 
> Just put my fees on my tab



All right JPS, you slap your's together in the next week, I'll slap together my old school non-electronic hand powered stone age one. I'll video and post my results for critical evaluation, then you can vid and post yours for a bit o the same.

Are yu game JPS?

jomoco


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## treeseer (Nov 8, 2008)

jomoco said:


> After getting consults and bids from the top tree firms, I was somewhat shocked to find that mine was chosen despite being the most expensive. It turns out that every other bid and recommendation was for removal of the trees with a large crane. The HOA board wanted these old giant historic torrey pines saved if humanly possible.
> 
> I charged them big bucks about 7 months ago to climb each tree, inspect each cable, and write a full report on each tree with detailed recommendations.


:yourock:   



> Any of you guys ever rod an old crossover together and have it meld together completely enough to hide the hardware inside?


Not sure what you mean here; if it's crossed over, there is no space for the hardware to be visible. But yes, I look to throughbolt branches where they rub other branches and stems above a bad fork, and let the tree cable itself. Seems like the best material...If there is bark in the rubbing spots I try to scrape it off down toward cambium so grafting is more complete.


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## jomoco (Nov 8, 2008)

treeseer said:


> :yourock:
> 
> Not sure what you mean here; if it's crossed over, there is no space for the hardware to be visible. But yes, I look to throughbolt branches where they rub other branches and stems above a bad fork, and let the tree cable itself. Seems like the best material...If there is bark in the rubbing spots I try to scrape it off down toward cambium so grafting is more complete.



I'm talking about the seemingly endless species of trees that are capable of melding and binding crossovers that rub into one fully integrated static union.

Sometimes, particularly in large live oaks here in so cal, I come across relatively large crossovers still in the rubbing and drooling stage of getting together, I like to drill and rod these wound junctions together at the exact greatest point of friction, usually with two 5/8ths galvanized rods.

Over the years any evidence of these assisted crossover fusions have completely disappeared and are buried and waiting for a razor sharp chainsaw!

That's kinda what I'm talkin about Treeseer my friend.

jomoco


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 8, 2008)

Did a big cablig job in Temecula, I used the "Treesaver" out of the Sherrill Catalog---I am impressed with it, now, all my cabling jobs will be with "Treesaver.


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## randyg (Nov 8, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I'm very oldschool about my cabling RB, 7strand with tree grips, drop forged galvinized through bolts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





My auger style bits have a little cone shaped screw thingy on the tips to pull the bit into the wood. If you have a pilot hole smaller than bit, screw thingy can't pull, you try to push and CRAP, bent another bit. Now if the 8 inch deep pilot were the same size (guess it wouldn't qualify as a pilot) as finish hole, then auger (long ) bit could follow ok?


When static cabling, anyone try the WIRE STOP? EHS cable only. No more dead end guy splice and thimble rubbing on eye bolt with washer and nut on other end. Just the two pieces, rated same strength as cable. I'm sold on them, have been for some time now. Has anyone ever had or heard of one fail? I think they are the cats meow, so beat me if I'm wrong, but not if you haven't tried them.


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## randyg (Nov 8, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've not been doing it long enough. Maybe a few with eye bolts getting engulfed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I saw a picture in Baileys or Sherril where that green laser pointer was right inside of the first hole drilled and pointing beam at other limb, but how often is thefirst hole that "spot on" anyway????


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## custom8726 (Nov 8, 2008)

randyg said:


> I think I saw a picture in Baileys or Sherril where that green laser pointer was right inside of the first hole drilled and pointing beam at other limb, *but how often is thefirst hole that "spot on" anyway????*




Pretty often if you align the laser before you bore the hole.


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## treeseer (Nov 9, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I'm talking about the seemingly endless species of trees that are capable of melding and binding crossovers that rub into one fully integrated static union.


Yeah that's what I was trying to say. Rarely see it in pines here though.

Maybe it would be best to leave one rod end long so it would be visible to the removal crew? Or paint it, or tie an aluminum wire to it? 5/8", sheesh those must be big branches. What would that do to a chipper?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 9, 2008)

custom8726 said:


> [/B]
> 
> Pretty often if you align the laser before you bore the hole.



Exactly, get an approximation first, then drill. Sort of a adaptation of measure twice axiom.

I seem to remember Tom D. talking about fixing one to his drill for a back shot to line up.


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## randyg (Nov 9, 2008)

I use a laser pointer device that also gives distance up to 100 feet. Picked it up at a building supply store for like 80 bucks and use the snot out of it. Especially great for measuring long cables like anything over 15 feet, very accurate. Also handy to use as pointer and checking heights when bidding bucket work, side reach of bucket etc. 

With 2' of drill bit and another foot and half of drill, I can eyeball the opposing limb (target) and 9 out of 10 times after 1st hole is bored, I put eye right up to tree and look through hole and see the entire limb. That 1 in 10 I can at least see part of the limb. Everyone is looking for this laser accuracy but lets face it, when the wind starts to blow, those laser sights will be scanning all around like some laser light show anyway right?


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## jomoco (Nov 9, 2008)

randyg said:


> I think I saw a picture in Baileys or Sherril where that green laser pointer was right inside of the first hole drilled and pointing beam at other limb, but how often is thefirst hole that "spot on" anyway????



That's the first thing that went through my mind as well Randy.

I've solved this perfect cabling alignment problem old school style!

But you guys will have to wait a week or so until my patent attoeney has filed to check it out.

I've already assembled a prototype and taken digital photos for my attorney to work from.

I invented it yesterday, and will be using it on my upcoming cabling jobs.

This is my second online invention here ay AS.COM this year.

Thanks guys, AS.COM rocks into the future!

jomoco


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## md_tree_dood (Nov 11, 2008)

I'd like to see the old cables before looking to remove them. I've installed cables into trees where the cabling was done incorrectly but I've always left the old cable in. Thumbs up on the EHS with through bolts!!


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## jomoco (Nov 12, 2008)

md_tree_dood said:


> I'd like to see the old cables before looking to remove them. I've installed cables into trees where the cabling was done incorrectly but I've always left the old cable in. Thumbs up on the EHS with through bolts!!



What benefit can a misaligned cable twisting the branch or leader in the wind provide?

I've seen the results of improper cabling on dozens of occasions, branch weakening and failure.

Leaving a misaligned cable in place makes no sense to me at all friend.

jomoco


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## md_tree_dood (Nov 14, 2008)

jomoco said:


> What benefit can a misaligned cable twisting the branch or leader in the wind provide?
> 
> I've seen the results of improper cabling on dozens of occasions, branch weakening and failure.
> 
> ...



I'd have to see the cable first before removing it. Second, while there may be no benefit to leaving the cable in, there may be no benefit in removing it either. 

But your attitude with your post leads me to believe you are just posting to brag about ripping off a client rather than to get a good discussion going. carry on


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## jomoco (Nov 14, 2008)

md_tree_dood said:


> I'd have to see the cable first before removing it. Second, while there may be no benefit to leaving the cable in, there may be no benefit in removing it either.
> 
> But your attitude with your post leads me to believe you are just posting to brag about ripping off a client rather than to get a good discussion going. carry on



The benefit from removing a misaligned cable and replacing it with a perfectly aligned cable is no more twisting in the wind obviously.

I'm going to ignore your insult in the hope of developing an educational thread that can be of real use to cabling experts that want to keep learning.

jomoco


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## md_tree_dood (Nov 17, 2008)

Different species grow at different rates. If the tree has grown to the point where the cable (while creating a twisting effect) is supporting a good deal of the weight of the branch, you could possibly weaken the entire branch by removing its support system even after putting a new cable in at a different position, albeit 'expertly' aligned.

Cabling lateral scaffolding branches back to a upright stem can be useful but it does put alot of strain on the entire tree. Not that there isn't a time and place for thisl but it should be done with great care. When doing it, choosing the height and angle that you've mentioned is of the utmost importance.

I do 2-3K of cabling a month easy, and its just like pruning or a removal, every situation is different, and every situation may call for a different solution. Kudos on the topic of discussion but....

I'll go back to my original statement. I'd have to SEE it first.....


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## DTC (Nov 21, 2008)

wow sounds interesting, can't wait to see the video


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## jomoco (Dec 7, 2008)

Okay guys, this is my new perfect alignment cabling tool, invented while pondering one of JPS's replies to one of my threads about two weeks ago.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DNy6SdUFdEk

My 2nd online invention in 08.

Do yu think it'll work well men?

jomoco


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## 046 (Dec 7, 2008)

pretty slick looking tool... can't get much simpler

nice job!



jomoco said:


> Okay guys, this is my new perfect alignment cabling tool, invented while pondering one of JPS's replies to one of my threads about two weeks ago.
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DNy6SdUFdEk
> 
> ...


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## B-Edwards (Dec 7, 2008)

Jojo just curious if you ever use Cobra and what you or any of you guys think about it. I have used it many times but never in very large trees. I am very happy with it and understand it has limitations .


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## jomoco (Dec 7, 2008)

B-Edwards said:


> Jojo just curious if you ever use Cobra and what you or any of you guys think about it. I have used it many times but never in very large trees. I am very happy with it and understand it has limitations .



No B Edwards, I haven't used it, don't trust it, don't agree with it's attachment rationale, and have heard it's had a few failures already.

However, I do agree that a dynamic cable with a limited spring throw, kind of a reverse shock absorber, attached old school style with throughbolts, would be the best an arborist could get to mimicking mother nature, with an added bit of mechanical security for target protection.

Cabling is an interesting field of arboriculture, with lots and lots of room for improvements, in my opinion.

jomoco


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## rbtree (Dec 8, 2008)

Why don't you agree with the attachment modus.....?

I've yet to see one get tight.....or damage the tree in any way.

and some of the newer systems are simpler..

As well, static line can be used, effectively making the system as strong as steel, but also with near zero stretch, and negates all need to get drill holes perfectly lined up.

If the tree canopy shades the install area, then there's little worry about UV degradation.


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## jomoco (Dec 8, 2008)

rbtree said:


> Why don't you agree with the attachment modus.....?
> 
> I've yet to see one get tight.....or damage the tree in any way.
> 
> ...



Circumferential attachments, particularly with any synthetics might make sense for temporary light duty applications like fruit laden orchard trees. However in any longterm, or heavy duty weight bearing cabling scenario, I'll take galvinized steel throughbolts everytime.

Cambium's vital role in every tree is obvious, the potential for serious cambium damage using the cobra system in high tensile, high wind scenarios is an unnecessary risk in my opinion. Maintenance of the cobra system is another drawback compared to galvinized steel systems as well.

Over time, the only dislocated cambium on my 20+ year old cables is the 1/2, 5/8ths or 3/4 inch circular eyebolts on the cable sides.

I like steel, drop forged, galvinized steel. It's track record is pretty dang impressive over the last 100+ years, in my opinion.

A simple inline compression spring on the cable itself makes good sense to me, as long as the throw is limited, and it has a galvinized steel failsafe.

jomoco


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## md_tree_dood (Dec 11, 2008)

Not to mention the Cobra system is expensive and harder to install


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## treeseer (Dec 11, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I'll take galvinized steel throughbolts everytime.


And I'll take wirestops every time; that's where my experience is.

Good questions, good answers. I've also used static line but like the feel of steel.


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## pdqdl (Dec 11, 2008)

I tried the wirestops recently. They are certainly more elegant looking when installed, and the total cost is less than eye bolts, clamps or splices, etc.

I'm not sure that they are any easier to install, however. We used the EHS cable, it was a Btch to cut and bend.


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## jomoco (Dec 11, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I tried the wirestops recently. They are certainly more elegant looking when installed, and the total cost is less than eye bolts, clamps or splices, etc.
> 
> I'm not sure that they are any easier to install, however. We used the EHS cable, it was a Btch to cut and bend.



I really like EHS 7 strand for supporting serious weight, however, if you use tree grips and thimbles at the eyebolts, there is no need to bend EHS cable. it definitely doesn't like to bend at all, using tree grips, all I have to do is cut it to length for each span, very accurately of course.

The strength ratings between EHS and soft lay cable is staggering.

I'm startin cablin next week, so I should have some decent vids of 3 different cabling jobs in the coming weeks, right up to new year.

jomoco


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## pdqdl (Dec 11, 2008)

JOMOCO: 

I was too cheap to buy an expensive cable cutter, in the hope that it MIGHT cut the biggest (7/16" ?) EHS cable we bought for a heavy tree. We used a die grinder on our portable air compressor. It did ok, and there was no doubt that it would get through eventually. We broke our bolt cutters, and didn't even dent the cable.

What do you use to cut the EHS cable?


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## jomoco (Dec 11, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> JOMOCO:
> 
> I was too cheap to buy an expensive cable cutter, in the hope that it MIGHT cut the biggest (7/16" ?) EHS cable we bought for a heavy tree. We used a die grinder on our portable air compressor. It did ok, and there was no doubt that it would get through eventually. We broke our bolt cutters, and didn't even dent the cable.
> 
> What do you use to cut the EHS cable?



Funny you bring that up, the best cable cutters are the one's with the long aluminum handles, and swiss steel blades, they cost about 400 bucks, and are the cats meow.

I've set up 3 different companies here in SD for cabling equipment, each time ordering the swiss cable cutters for each company. And because I don't cable exclusively for each company, over the years each of those expensive cable cutters has disappeared from each company. I come back and find friggin boltcutters in the cabling bags.

I don't play with stupid boltcutters when I cable period, but I have found a cheaper ratcheting cable cutter that works almost as well as the swiss cutters.

http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/layout.asp?product_id=109X098

You'll see them in action on EHS cable soon.

These are the swiss cutters.

http://www.felcostore.com/order1.jsp?code=F-C16&referer=wirecablecutters.jsp

jomoco


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## ropensaddle (Dec 11, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Funny you bring that up, the best cable cutters are the one's with the long aluminum handles, and swiss steel blades, they cost about 400 bucks, and are the cats meow.
> 
> I've set up 3 different companies here in SD for cabling equipment, each time ordering the swiss cable cutters for each company. And because I don't cable exclusively for each company, over the years each of those expensive cable cutters has disappeared from each company. I come back and find friggin boltcutters in the cabling bags.
> 
> ...



Wow I am too cheap I just use a chisel and big hammer but
it works very well!!


----------



## jomoco (Dec 11, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Wow I am too cheap I just use a chisel and big hammer but
> it works very well!!



I'd love to see you cut EHS cable in the tree with a hammer and chisel Rope!

And no cambial damage Rope!

jomoco


----------



## 046 (Dec 12, 2008)

felco cutters are the best!

got two pairs of the smaller version felco for cutting super tuff bike shifting cables.


----------



## jomoco (Dec 12, 2008)

046 said:


> felco cutters are the best!
> 
> got two pairs of the smaller version felco for cutting super tuff bike shifting cables.



Absolutely no doubt 046, atleast in my experience cabling.

jomoco


----------



## rbtree (Dec 12, 2008)

md_tree_dood said:


> Not to mention the Cobra system is expensive and harder to install



Huh? The 2 ton is cheap, and super easy to install....the larger sizes still easy to work, but not cheap...

and some of the newer systems are even easier, but not so cheap.

Jomoco, I doubt seriously if there has been much evidence of cambium damage from properly installed dynamic systems...which aren't meant to be taut. (I've seen none.)

You may be right about static systems, which have probably had few installs, as they should be tight, llike steel, to support a weaker union.......those would be under constant tension.


----------



## jomoco (Dec 12, 2008)

rbtree said:


> Huh?
> 
> You may be right about static systems, which have probably had few installs, as they should be tight, llike steel, to support a weaker union.......those would be under constant tension.



And proper hardware alignment is critical to the system's integrity RB.

Don't get me wrong, absent a structural fault, the logic behind dynamic cabling systems makes perfect sense in my opinion, it mimics mother nature, and I believe in mother nature.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Dec 18, 2008)

Here are pics of today's cabling efforts.

Note the cable failure is primarily due to lack of thimbles and the resulting dynamic friction in the wind.





























I'm very glad to report that the first usage of my new cabling alignment tubes resulted in a couple of perfectly straight cables in that moreton bay fig.

Doing remedial cable work in a tree that should never have been cabled in the first place is somewhat frustrating and requires careful methodology.

I'll be spending two more days in this particular tree in downtown SD.

jomoco


----------



## masterarbor (Dec 18, 2008)

This has been an interesting thread with a lot of legs! A lot of very intersting input and observations. Thanks guys.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 18, 2008)

jomoco said:


> Here are pics of today's cabling efforts
> 
> I'm very glad to report that the first usage of my new cabling alignment tubes resulted in a couple of perfectly straight cables in that moreton bay fig.
> 
> ...



Come on guys, and your Morton Bay jomoco, Have any of you guys used the "tree saver" , the best dynamic system known to man--I use it and don,t have interest invested in the company. Sherrill catalog.
Jeff Lovstrom:agree2: :agree2:


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I'd love to see you cut EHS cable in the tree with a hammer and chisel Rope!
> 
> And no cambial damage Rope!
> 
> jomoco



You win jomo I have very little time
cabling unfortunately only one customer so far has wanted
it done! I measured and pre-cut with a chisel on my vise on my bucket.
I suppose if I could find more clients I would justify some crimps cable
cutters etc. are Klein the best? I have many Klein tools' and like their
quality. Most people here want trees cut instead of supported but
I do try.


----------



## jomoco (Dec 19, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> You win jomo I have very little time
> cabling unfortunately only one customer so far has wanted
> it done! I measured and pre-cut with a chisel on my vise on my bucket.
> I suppose if I could find more clients I would justify some crimps cable
> ...



I'm sure Klein probably makes a decent pair of cable cutters Rope, but Felco C16's are the best.

I've got a really lightweight new ratcheting cable cutter that cuts thick EHS cable great, but I hate them in the tree, they take what seems like forever to ratchet down and get on with the friggin cuttin already!

They're geared so low it's frustrating!

Give me Felco Santa..............uh make that POV1 wide angle helmet cam.....never mind....just give me health please.

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2008)

jomoco said:


> I'm sure Klein probably makes a decent pair of cable cutters Rope, but Felco C16's are the best.
> 
> I've got a really lightweight new ratcheting cable cutter that cuts thick EHS cable great, but I hate them in the tree, they take what seems like forever to ratchet down and get on with the friggin cuttin already!
> 
> ...


So I am guessing two bills for the cutter right?


----------



## jomoco (Dec 19, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> So I am guessing two bills for the cutter right?



There's a link in either this cabling thread or Mitchell's to both the ratcheting and Felco cutters Rope.

More like 3 bills.

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2008)

jomoco said:


> There's a link in either this cabling thread or Mitchell's to both the ratcheting and Felco cutters Rope.
> 
> More like 3 bills.
> 
> jomoco



Ok I see have to have a good job I let my work buy the
necessaries!


----------



## RedlineIt (Dec 19, 2008)

Jomoco,

Since this is a great thread about cabling in general (Mitchell's thread very educational as well, but more single job specific) I will ask my questions about wirestops here.

The "Rigguy" wirestops cabling system: Doesn't the fact that the interior side of the drilled hole never gets "plugged" mean that it will be a permanent route for moisture migration along the cable? That this moisture and small accretions of crud will then surely persist on that very part of the cable that you cannot inspect? 

Also: Wouldn't the movement of the cabled limb in even gentle winds result in a constant side-to-side "radiusing" of the through hole, in effect negating the trees every attempt to establish the 4th CODIT wall, possibly setting up a permanent site for fungal attack?

Now, I've never seen a wirestop installation, just the vids on the "Rigguy" website. But several years ago I responded to a cabling failure with a conventional through bolt that had never been properly snugged up, and all of the concerns I list above were factors in the failure, persistent moisture migration resulting in degradation of the eyebolt, but most significantly - side-to-side motion transfer of friction to the limb/eyebolt juncture instead of the thimble resulting in decay of the limb at the point of cabling.

Needless to say this was a cable installation that had not been properly re-inspected, properties change hands, tree companies go out of business...

So I was wondering if anyone with experience with cablestops might address these concerns.


RedlineIt


----------



## jomoco (Dec 19, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> Jomoco,
> 
> Since this is a great thread about cabling in general (Mitchell's thread very educational as well, but more single job specific) I will ask my questions about wirestops here.
> 
> ...



Hey there Redlineit, I believe I have a good understanding of the wirestop system, and I share the same concerns you have expressed about their potential drawbacks and weaknesses.

Hopefully someone here who has more hands on experience using wirestops will chime in on the pros and cons of using them.

I'll stubbornly stick to the old school drop forged galvanized steel cabling components, they have a well known proven track record that has never failed me yet.

All my nice new cabling tools and alignment tubes are now covered in friggin ficus sap! Moreton bay figs are magnificent trees though!

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 2, 2009)

I put on my helmet cam and took a stroll around this moreton bay fig after I finished cabling it today. I spent 3 days in this tree, it had 12 cables in it when I started. I got rid of all 12, and it now has only 4 new cables.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5avqx5bSyRo

According to the plaque on this tree, it's been around since 1877, and it is the very first tree I used my new cabling alignment tubes in to ensure my cables and hardware were perfectly aligned. 

I'll be starting the big torrey pines next week, and should get some good footage of the job as it progresses.

jomoco


----------



## treeseer (Jan 3, 2009)

I hate to sound ungrateful but...

Video was way boring--bat got your tongue? How about using a laser pointer and showing where the cables are and were and why? Better yet to do some from in the tree, too, at least next time.

Thanks--it is a grand tree, and great to see how others value and protect trees.


----------



## treevet (Jan 3, 2009)

3 days to install 4 cables and clip out some old ones. Why so long?


----------



## jomoco (Jan 3, 2009)

treevet said:


> 3 days to install 4 cables and clip out some old ones. Why so long?



Boy, you guys are a tough crowd lately. The answer to your question is that this magnificent tree should have never been cabled at all period. Moreton bay figs are monsterously powerful trees quite capable of holding themselves up with no help from arborists trying to make a sell.

The real problem I faced with this tree was deciding which cables were extraneous and should go, and which cables the tree actually had grown dependent on and should be replaced?

My answer was 4 new cables installed correctly, and 12 old cables incorrectly installed being cut out.

I have lots of still pics of the old and new cables in this tree, but I'm having trouble posting them as they are all over 700 kb, and this site has a 300 kb limit on pic size.

I mav be getting older and slower these days it's true, but these people are after the highest quality work they can get when they hire me, not the cheap shoddy improper work they pay me well for to correct.

jomoco


----------



## treeseer (Jan 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> ...people are after the highest quality work they can get when they hire me, not the cheap shoddy improper work they pay me well for to correct.
> 
> jomoco



:agree2:


----------



## Ekka (Jan 3, 2009)

Was it this one?

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&...=12,107.41462210481316,,0,-13.428020448381558


----------



## woodchux (Jan 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I have lots of still pics of the old and new cables in this tree, but I'm having trouble posting them as they are all over 700 kb, and this site has a 300 kb limit on pic size.



Hey jomoco get a program like Ifranview (free) and resize those pics for us!

http://www.irfanview.com/


----------



## jomoco (Jan 3, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Was it this one?
> 
> http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&...=12,107.41462210481316,,0,-13.428020448381558



It's funny you post pics of what I believe is the Moreton Bay Fig in front of the Natural History Museum in Balboa Park.

The reason it's funny is that particular ficus tree is also packed full of cables that should have never been installed as well. And guess who had to replace all twenty something of them about 5 years ago? It took me over two weeks to do that one tree.

It's entirely clear to me that at some point in San Diego's arboricultural history, some very prominent arborist with alot of pull and popularity made the mistaken determination that these hearty trees need cabling support, and successfully sold that false notion to the city heads and tree community of the times. It could have easily been as long ago as World Expo that laid the groundwork for Balboa Park in the early 1900's. I think Teddy Roosevelt attended.

I of course appreciate that these early arborists and the many subsequent arborists that have worked on and maintained these marvelous trees over the last 100 plus years were all doing their best for these trees as I have everytime I'm granted the privilege of being paid well to care for them and make sure they're done right.

I am torn about posting pics of amateur cabling mistakes made by my predecessors that cabled these trees originally, but I ask myself how else can we learn from our mistakes unless are willing look at and discuss them?

I hope I never get to old to quit learning from others as well as my own many mistakes over the years.

jomoco


----------



## Ekka (Jan 3, 2009)

Well, what's the address for your one then?


----------



## elmnut (Jan 3, 2009)

Great thread! When it comes to proper alignment, what factors are considered?


----------



## Ekka (Jan 3, 2009)

elmnut said:


> Great thread! When it comes to proper alignment, what factors are considered?



A long enough drill bit to drill through a large branch at an angle (using the Rigguy system) ... the hypotenuse is always longer.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 3, 2009)

elmnut said:


> Great thread! When it comes to proper alignment, what factors are considered?



Accuracy of the hole drilled in the branch for the eyebolt connector being perfectly true to the cable lay on both ends is essential to prevent the cabled branches from twisting in the wind.

I achieved perfect alignment holes by stringing a rope attached to alignment tubes at each end where the proposed cable is to be installed. Once the tubes are tied in place in close proximity to the proposed drill hole, the rope between the tubes is pulled tight and tied off under tension, then I slide a round pnuematic pistol grip pilot drill into the center of the tube through milled out slots in them allowing me to drill a perfectly aligned 3/8ths inch pilot hole hole about ten inches deep into the wood where the eyebolt will eventually go. Once both pilot holes are drilled I remove the alignment tubes and ream the pilot holes out to 1/2 inch with a standard two stroke reversible drill motor going all the way through the wood at the correct angle.

It takes a little longer for sure, but the dead on accuracy of the holes drilled perfectly straight are well worth the effort and time if quality of your work is the end goal. I don't think any arborist could drill holes as straight by eye, including myself, which is the reason I invented these new tubes about a month ago.

Cool things like this can be made possible at cool arborist websites like this when egos butt heads, I was kinda arguing with JPS when I got the idea of these simple alignment tubes going off in my head like a firecracker. 

I obviously enjoy having intellectual discussions and arguments with my peers here at AS.Com, it's neat to bounce things around with other experienced guys that do the same work I've done my whole adult and teenage life.

There are pics of my tubes in this thread somewhere I believe, you guys feel free to copy them and make your own. If you need help on specs and materials to build them, just PM me and I'll help as best as I can.

Here's a vid of the tubes and drill I made shortly after my brother made them for me on a mill at the machine shop he works in.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DNy6SdUFdEk

jomoco

jomoco


----------



## soiset (Jan 4, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I really like EHS 7 strand for supporting serious weight, however, if you use tree grips and thimbles at the eyebolts, there is no need to bend EHS cable. it definitely doesn't like to bend at all, using tree grips, all I have to do is cut it to length for each span, very accurately of course.
> 
> The strength ratings between EHS and soft lay cable is staggering.
> 
> ...



The tables I've seen show both 3/8" 7x19 and EHS cable/wire rope to have minimum breaking strengths in the neighborhood of 15 kips, but more to the point:

I don't believe the strength of the cable is ever going to be utilized, because it is, by far, the strongest link in the cabling chain. The weakest link is going to be the wood (assuming the terminations are proper), where the grain is under perpendicular compression at the washer at the end of the through-bolt. Given the relative ease of cutting and bending 7x19, why bother using EHS?

I can run the calcs for the compressive failure of the wood grain of various wood types, but we are talking about a couple square inches of wood supporting more than 10 kips - and it's simply not possible. 

Feel VERY free to call me a dumbass and tell me why I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time by a long shot.

Thanks,
Chris


----------



## jomoco (Jan 4, 2009)

woodchux said:


> Hey jomoco get a program like Ifranview (free) and resize those pics for us!
> 
> http://www.irfanview.com/



Thanks for the help Woodchux, mighty kind of yu.

Let's see if it woiked?


----------



## jomoco (Jan 4, 2009)

And a couple more.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 4, 2009)

One of my two alignment tubes in action for the first time.


----------



## treevet (Jan 4, 2009)

Seems like the addition of a second cable on your eyebolt would negate all this technical alignment effort you are putting forth?


----------



## jomoco (Jan 4, 2009)

treevet said:


> Seems like the addition of a second cable on your eyebolt would negate all this technical alignment effort you are putting forth?



Not in the least Treevet, once you consider the primary support leader is three times the diameter of the much smaller leaders it's supporting.

The eyebolt hole of the primary leader is in perfect alignment to the midpoint between the two smaller leaders, and the lateral angle is true to the almost horizontal cable lay.

Drilling two holes in the primary leader to accomodate such small leaders is unnecessary and unprofessional in my opinion. However if the leaders being supported were of equal or greater size than the support leader, your point would be valid Treevet. Note how close the eyebolt ring is to the primary support leader to ensure lateral leveraging is easily absorbed and negated.

I'll be doing alot of this single trunk anchor support of 2-3 separate lower laterals on one of the upcoming torrey pines in the next few weeks.

jomoco


----------



## treevet (Jan 4, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Not in the least Treevet, once you consider the primary support leader is three times the diameter of the much smaller leaders it's supporting.
> 
> The eyebolt hole of the primary leader is in perfect alignment to the midpoint between the two smaller leaders, and the lateral angle is true to the almost horizontal cable lay.
> 
> ...



I thought the reason from the pict was because of a small leader but just checking Jon. I agree completely. Do it myself sometimes.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 4, 2009)

treevet said:


> I thought the reason from the pict was because of a small leader but just checking Jon. I agree completely. Do it myself sometimes.



I used the alignment tubes on all thee holes to ensure the alignment was exact, even on the primary support, I just used two ropes from the separate leaders running and attaching to the back of the alignment tube tied to the primary leader. This technique ensures the angles of all three holes are true and exact to my purpose. Obviously the angle on the primary could be fudged with no serious detrimental consequences due to it's size and bulk, however this would not be true for the two smaller leaders being supported, to the exact degree out of alignment that hole is to the primary eyebolt ring, is the exact degree of rotational twisting that cabled leader will be subjected to every time the wind hits it from the direction of the primary support leader.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 7, 2009)

Well I got started cabling the big torries on the bay today.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 7, 2009)

A few more pics.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 7, 2009)

opcorn: opcorn:


----------



## jomoco (Jan 7, 2009)

And a little vid of my second pilot alignment hole being drilled.

I started in the smaller Torrey's lowest lateral leaders because whoever put these lower cables in many years ago used lags to anchor them in a softwood pine, a big no no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBUho2Ez29I

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 8, 2009)

This morning upon inspecting the lay of my first installed cable I noticed it was slightly out of true alignment by a degree or two. After pondering this in the tree a few minutes I realised the culprit was the pilot drill bit itself. It was not designed to initiate true cuts at acute angles from 90 degrees.

Rather than continue, I took the rest of the day off to solve this exact alignment problem.

This modified flat 5/8ths wood drill bit can initiate an exactly true bore from even the most acute angles now.



Problem solved!

jomoco


----------



## randyg (Jan 9, 2009)

OK Remind me again why all this accuracy? 1 or 2 degrees off? Many co-dom leaders I have cabled will sway back and forth 10 or 15 degrees from one another on a windy day. Not sure I'm buyin into the rocket science angle (pun intended) here.


----------



## treevet (Jan 9, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Rather than continue, I took the rest of the day off to solve this exact alignment problem.



Now I see why it took 3 days to put 4 cables in earlier tree.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 9, 2009)

The title of my thread is"professional" cabling in large trees guys, not expedient crooked amateur cabling in unlucky trees.

jomoco


----------



## treevet (Jan 9, 2009)

jomoco said:


> The title of my thread is"professional" cabling in large trees guys, not expedient crooked amateur cabling in unlucky trees.
> 
> jomoco



I have been around a loooong time. Didn't want to get in this thread because this is where these things usually end up. Been in too many cabling threads.

A patent attorney? Ha... Might want to seek out a therapist....

OCD Obsessive compulsive disorder.

Posters must really like you (I think I do too) to leave this stuff alone.

The story "The Emperor's Clothes" comes distinctly to mind.

Sorry to disturb "your thread". I'll leave quietly if not provoked, I promise.

Going to bed....see you tomorrow.


----------



## oldirty (Jan 9, 2009)

jomoco i thought you said you invented the friction saver?


----------



## Ekka (Jan 9, 2009)

I think Mario Vaden should have done the job, he's an arborist too you know. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## masterarbor (Jan 9, 2009)

jomoco said:


> This morning upon inspecting the lay of my first installed cable I noticed it was slightly out of true alignment by a degree or two. After pondering this in the tree a few minutes I realised the culprit was the pilot drill bit itself. It was not designed to initiate true cuts at acute angles from 90 degrees.
> 
> Rather than continue, I took the rest of the day off to solve this exact alignment problem.
> 
> ...




I'm wondering if this process is being over thought. I do however appreciate your interest in doing it correctly.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey you can take 3 weeks per tree-it's your time, and there's nothing wrong with doing it right.


----------



## treevet (Jan 9, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Hey you can take 3 weeks per tree-it's your time, and there's nothing wrong with doing it right.



Either client may disagree with that premise or your accountant if not paid for the billable hours.....

3 days x 2 men @ $1600.00 per day

$4800.00 to install 4 cables

$1200.00 per cable

That sound about the way it went down?

Doing it right shouldn't take that long if done by industry standards. If you think you are setting industry standards, well...then that is debatable on this forum, isn't it?


----------



## pdqdl (Jan 9, 2009)

Oooh... Aaah... Ohhh... My!



Money like that... I'm moving to California. I could almost pay for my private airplane for the weekly commute back home.


----------



## masterarbor (Jan 9, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Oooh... Aaah... Ohhh... My!
> 
> 
> 
> Money like that... I'm moving to California. I could almost pay for my private airplane for the weekly commute back home.



Maybe getting that kind of money on the job, you feel you have to hang around longer than 2-3 hours which I think is more than enough time to put in four cables. More power to you though, I need some of that gravy. Then again don't two bedroom homes go for about $500,000 and up in SD?


----------



## jomoco (Jan 9, 2009)

oldirty said:


> jomoco i thought you said you invented the friction saver?



The leather cambium saver was invented by me in 1991, introduced on the market in 92, and featured on the cover of arbor age magazine in the june 92 issue.

The ringed friction saver was invented and introduced on the market many years later by another innovative fellow I haven't met.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 9, 2009)

treevet said:


> Either client may disagree with that premise or your accountant if not paid for the billable hours.....
> 
> 3 days x 2 men @ $1600.00 per day
> 
> ...




I'm not sure exactly what you're driving at here Treevet, as just about any idiot can string a cable between two limbs in 30 minutes easy, and it looks real pretty until a professional has to cut it out and do it right 5-10 years later.

Apparently it's appalling to you that I get paid 5 grand to clean up and cut out amateur cabling and install 4 new and necessary cables properly over 3 days time.

I'm torn between being sad that such slip shod cabling gets done in this country, and being glad that it happens to contrast my work against.

I worked that Moreton bay fig in question alone since it was fenced off from the public. 

The typical commercial rush and haste to get things done fast is not conducive to real quality tree care or safety in general.

This biz is in a cheap labor fed rush to the bottom, and I'm afraid you'll have to excuse me if I take the exact opposite approach by charging premium coin for delivering the highest quality tree care I possibly can.

Why don't you post a few pics of your cabling instead of trying to yank my chain friend.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 9, 2009)

Today's cabling pics on San Diego bay.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 9, 2009)

And of course my favorite pic of the day.


----------



## treesandsurf (Jan 12, 2009)

Let's bring the time/money debate to an accounting forum, huh? If Jomoco is doing sound, quality work then who cares what he is capable of charging? 

It seems more an attempt to punch holes in something, and the only thing he's left open is his pay scale, so that got attacked. 

Great work, inspiring to see attention to detail. 

jp


----------



## treevet (Jan 12, 2009)

treesandsurf said:


> Let's bring the time/money debate to an accounting forum, huh? If Jomoco is doing sound, quality work then who cares what he is capable of charging?
> 
> It seems more an attempt to punch holes in something, and the only thing he's left open is his pay scale, so that got attacked.
> 
> ...



Rubbish! You need to get your head out of a hole and read the thread before drawing conclusions. It was MY assertion that the cost should be approx 4800.00 given the time spent. My issue and other's is with the perfection of alignment and whether it is warranted given the time spent and the related costs. 

Did you really charge this much for this job? $5000.00? 4 cables? Wasn't this a city tree? UFB would have an issue with paying outlandish fees for a job that was done unnecessarily to the installer's standards that did not conform to national standards. That excessive money would be allocated to other tree projects and materials. I sit on my town's Urban Forestry Board and am qualified to make this assessment. My board would be reluctant to pay this bill.

I am waiting for ANSI Standards to review them but I do not feel this obsessive adherence to nut to nut alignment is warranted esp. given the costs incurred in this endeavor. I also feel the length of the wound you are causing is much more invasive and destructive than it needs to be. I have probably installed around 3000 cables in my 40 years so I am not speaking out of ignorance.

If the tree had a stable, balanced load pulling on the anchors then maybe perfect alignment would mean something. However limbs swirl and move laterally as a matter of course. Limbs are never perfectly balanced. Also at times he is adding redirectional rings and secondary cables pulling sideways that make this perfection of alignment also moot. Where are the prevailing winds, what side of the fault is weakest, etc.

Not trying to "yank his chain" but rather have a discussion which is the reason for this forum now isn't it. This is why we have chosen a standards developing organization (ANSI) and a committee that is a group of qualified arborists to develop these standards. Otherwise if some individual were to take this as their own mission then their motive may be the almighty dollar. 

You told me why not show some of my work. Well what we would have just as your pictures is an eyebolt through a tree with an attachment (cable) running to another similar set up. Pictures do not tell the story and you have to be on the ground and in the canopy to make these assessments of just where to support the limbs. And it is NEVER a perfect set up. The pictures you show and the videos mean little or nothing other than the expertise of the anchors. If you have to invent something my inclination would be to go with a treatment to make the cable system last longer such as a tar or something to correct degrading zinc coating (galvanization). This is the weakest link in the longevity IMO, not something being a "c" hair out of perfect alignment.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 13, 2009)

I'd love to share with you how the "Authorities" are showing their interest in my work Treevet, but you have a way of making me not give a hoot what you or your donned "authority" think of my precision in following ANSI standards.

Read the standards and adhere to them for the reasons they're written instead of guesstimating for decades and calling it close enough.

Your philosophy deserves the chinese junk it buys.

jomoco


----------



## Ekka (Jan 13, 2009)

Jomoco,

If this horizontal limb only has one cable to basically support the weight then it's likely to experience "cupboard door failure". That's where the limb tears out by rotating around the trunk.

Limbs like this should be *propped*.


----------



## treevet (Jan 13, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Jomoco,
> 
> If this horizontal limb only has one cable to basically support the weight then it's likely to experience "cupboard door failure". That's where the limb tears out by rotating around the trunk.



This is exactly why I advocate (can only speak for myself) the "boxed in" system when the opp. presents itself as opposed to the ring/cog system Jomoco is so fond of. When boxed in the cable system restricts the lateral movement or even eliminates it and the "cupboard door" doesn't rotate in the wind encouraging the base of the limb to tear out as a socket.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 13, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Jomoco,
> 
> If this horizontal limb only has one cable to basically support the weight then it's likely to experience "cupboard door failure". That's where the limb tears out by rotating around the trunk.
> 
> Limbs like this should be *propped*.



I don't doubt your observation holds true for certain species you have experience with Ekka. 

However I have not seen any cabled pines affected as you describe in torries, stone or alleppo.

I don't quite see how a branch supported by cable from high above would not still form reaction wood to prevent rotational failure as normally occurs

However I have seen all 3 species of these pines fail in the hot summer months when the laterals twist and droop, but never at the trunk branch junction, absent included bark faults. These failures generally occur at some point in the lateral wood itself at the 1/3 to 1/2 point where the wood grain itself twists, fails and droops, but seldom detaches completely.

This very common hot summertime branch failure in these species of pine make them prime candidates for cabing here in socal.

That said, one of the torries I'm currently re-cabling had a huge branch failure about a year and a half ago that was the direct result of a large mis-aligned cable and eyebolt that twisted that leader each day in the onshore wind until it was weakened structurally and failed.

It was this event occurring that led to me being called to perform an evaluation of the trees and cabling, and give an estimate to perform remedial cabling in both trees.

Many bids were given on these torries by the major tree firms here, and each one except mine recommended removal of these magnificent old trees.

Rather ironic that a removal specialist would be the one to save them by cabling them properly.

jomoco


----------



## treevet (Jan 13, 2009)

Cables can certainly cause failure instead of preventing one. When stressed they may torque the supported limb away from its connection to the stem. The alignment that is at issue is the balance from the anchor to the branch being supported though and not the perfection of the hole in the support limb to the limb being supported. There may very well be no applicable support available period. It happens all the time. Other remedial attempts may or may not then be considered.

As for the ANSI standards mentioned earlier....the highest value to the arborist may just be enacted during a law suit aimed at the arborist in the event of injury or property damage loss due to failure of one of their systems. They may not be at blame (extreme wind event, etc.) but if they are adhering to ANSI standards then they will look much better in front of a jury of citizens or a judge.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 14, 2009)

Today's pics of old torrey pines on San Diego bay.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 14, 2009)

Cute burl on that 4th one. Nice pics looking up into the crown too.

It's a damning datum on our industry that the other companies wanted to whack them. Hack consultants; stupid to kill what we are expected to maintain. :monkey:


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 14, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Today's pics of old torrey pines on San Diego bay.


if the building and pine were mine i'd let her fall on the building before i had ta saw her up for lumber. what a cool old tree


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 14, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I don't doubt your observation holds true for certain species you have experience with Ekka.
> 
> However I have not seen any cabled pines affected as you describe in torries, stone or alleppo.
> 
> ...


:agree2:


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 14, 2009)

im not sure how many cables are going in but id say she is a good canadate for lightning protection


----------



## oldirty (Jan 14, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Cute burl on that 4th one. Nice pics looking up into the crown too.
> 
> It's a damning datum on our industry that the other companies wanted to whack them. Hack consultants; stupid to kill what we are expected to maintain. :monkey:





hey jomoco. what were the reasons given to the property owner for take down? how did you talk them into keeping the tree and paying gooood money for the cables? 

as much as i love a good takedown i have grown rather fond of the prune/preservation aspect of the game. actually more of an appreciation now that i climb a rope just as well as i spike. 

i cant claim to know jack about the science of all that chit but it looks good to me.


btw jomoco i asked about the friction saver because i couldnt help but notice that your true blue was going bareback in that tree.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> btw jomoco i asked about the friction saver because i couldnt help but notice that your true blue was going bareback in that tree.



Which tree OD?

Thems fightin words OD.

I do not set climbing lines without cambium savers on them!

Even when I'm removing them!

Particularly in old sticky Torrey pines that I'm being well paid to cable and save!

Take it back, prove the accusation, or risk my wrath fellow climbing student!

The noive!

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Jan 15, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Which tree OD?
> 
> Thems fightin words OD.
> 
> ...





2nd pic post 85. lol

and i guess i was talking about them torries.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> 2nd pic post 85. lol
> 
> and i guess i was talking about them torries.



An honest mistake on your part OD, that's my primary tree entrance line that gets me to my work line, and they both have CS's on them, though they're not readily visible in the pic.

That same rope is in the same tree in the same spot right now, with a CS on it as I type this.

So I'll let you slide on your blasphemous false accusation OD, this time.LOL.

jomoco


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 15, 2009)

Wow 5000 4 cables hmmmmmmmmm so are standard prune jobs like
2000 per tree? I could get used to one prune per day or wait would that
be three days I end up pruning 75 for that


----------



## jomoco (Jan 15, 2009)

jomoco said:


> An honest mistake on your part OD, that's my primary tree entrance line that gets me to my work line, and they both have CS's on them, though they're not readily visible in the pic.
> 
> That same rope is in the same tree in the same spot right now, with a CS on it as I type this.
> 
> ...



All right Oldirty, you blasphemous dog, I made this video this morning going up the very rope you accused me of not having a CS on.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5yMBxo972Yc

Now take it back and apologize like a professional climber should, before I'm forced to take more drastic measures and hex you OD! LOL

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Jan 15, 2009)

fair enough sir. i stand corrected. video evidence proves me wrong. lol.


i know you been in the game for a hot minute now mr. jo, but when the hell you going to move away from the taughtline?! lol


hey sweet cam set up. you got any film from a nasty takedown? i saw some of those zipline vids you put up.

i really like that helmet cam.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> fair enough sir. i stand corrected. video evidence proves me wrong. lol.
> 
> 
> i know you been in the game for a hot minute now mr. jo, but when the hell you going to move away from the taughtline?! lol
> ...



How many of your fancy knots can you tie with one hand OD?

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Jan 15, 2009)

touche'.


how about a slacktending pulley then?

lol.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> touche'.


jo taught you about the tautline, dinty?


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 15, 2009)

Me :love1: taunt line hitch


----------



## jomoco (Jan 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> touche'.
> 
> 
> how about a slacktending pulley then?
> ...



There is an interesting aspect to slack tending pullies that I tried to engineer in the mid 90's.

I would weld a series of semi captive eyes to my rope snaps that I could thread my rope tail through below my monkey fist.

This allowed me to jump through crotches rope tail and all, letting my body weight act through the modified rope snap to keep a straight supply of rope feeding the fist, basically my bodyweight pulling my tail through the crotch by aligning the feed to my fist.

Then someone smarter than me diid the same thing in an even better way by utilising a micro pulley in the same strategic locale to accomplish the same thing with even less friction.

I was out classed pure and simple on that outstanding develpoment for climbing trees smarter.

But I was on the right track anyway!

jomoco


----------



## oldirty (Jan 15, 2009)

treeseer said:


> jo taught you about the tautline, dinty?



i bet if i showed up to work with the old curmudgeon he could show me a bit more than the taughtline. lol


who's dinty?


how many tree climbing inventions you come up with jo?


----------



## jomoco (Jan 15, 2009)

oldirty said:


> i bet if i showed up to work with the old curmudgeon he could show me a bit more than the taughtline. lol
> 
> 
> who's dinty?
> ...



Oh a few!

But my very latest is the Passive Lowering/Speedline retrieval leash new climbing saddle tool. It's essentially a self retracting dog leash binered to your climbing saddle that clips to your lowering line via biner so you can retrieve your lowering line from any position in the tree without leaving your position in the tree.

A very handy new tool for strategic removal specialists with hobbs and grcs toys.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 19, 2009)

Well I finished cabling the south torrey on friday, so I went up the north torrey today, and got a big surprise.

I knew something fishy was up only about 12 feet up when I ran into gallons of fresh sap dripping onto the lower laterals from high above, and sure enough this is what I found about 70 feet up on a huge lateral.

















Apparently this damage happened in december during high winds. The lateral comprises far too much of the upper canopy to remove without ruining this old torrey aesthetically and otherwise.

It was early 08 when I was last in this tree for my evaluation report and recommendation.

I got the owners out and showed them the pics above this morning so they could make a decision. I recommended lightening the leader, then cabling it to an upper leader 180 degrees opposite about 40 feet away and slightly above the cracked lateral, then rodding the split itself. I gave them an estimate for the additional work, and they said no problem do it.

I carefully thinned the affected leader of about 750 pounds of weight, then cabled it to the distant opposing leader. I was very happy when I tightened the cable ad the split leader stood back up into it's original positin in the tree with no problem.

I'll rod it tomorrow and post pics of the repair then. I'll be spending 8 more days cabling this old torrey so it can provide shade and beauty for many years to come.

What a sappy mess!

jomoco


----------



## treeseer (Jan 20, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I recommended lightening the leader, then cabling it to an upper leader 180 degrees opposite about 40 feet away and slightly above the cracked lateral, then rodding the split itself.


Good work, thanks for the pics.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 20, 2009)

*RE: sappy mess*

Come on man! Cant we just break out the saws on that piece of crap already?? Just sell em on planting something else, that how I justify a good takedown. 8 more days, lol. How much is this costing these suckers??


----------



## treeseer (Jan 20, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> Just sell em on planting something else, that how I justify a good takedown.


These clients' children will be dead when replacement trees replace the cabled trees. ?What good will that do them??

If you are diagnosing in CT, you need a license. I thought licensed arborists in CT had to know more.


----------



## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Oh a few!
> 
> But my very latest is the Passive Lowering/Speedline retrieval leash new climbing saddle tool. It's essentially a self retracting dog leash binered to your climbing saddle that clips to your lowering line via biner so you can retrieve your lowering line from any position in the tree without leaving your position in the tree.
> 
> ...



"Borrowed" that from a Reg Coates Vid.? My guess is he invented it.


----------



## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Well I finished cabling the south torrey on friday, so I went up the north torrey today, and got a big surprise.
> 
> I knew something fishy was up only about 12 feet up when I ran into gallons of fresh sap dripping onto the lower laterals from high above, and sure enough this is what I found about 70 feet up on a huge lateral.
> 
> ...



Rodding does not look feasible with all the splits involved. This lead is a playground/restaurant for decay. You got a good disclaimer like Guy has?


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 20, 2009)

treeseer said:


> These clients' children will be dead when replacement trees replace the cabled trees. ?What good will that do them??
> 
> If you are diagnosing in CT, you need a license. I thought licensed arborists in CT had to know more.



Hey seer, I was just yanking your chain friend (and jomoco's).


----------



## treeseer (Jan 20, 2009)

treevet said:


> This lead is a playground/restaurant for decay.


Good codit closes the diner down. How is torrey pine against decay?

MDS nice job on the chain--ya got me!


----------



## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Good codit closes the diner down.



Dreamer.....did you see all those cracks, now we add multiple branch width bolts. Cracks take down more lumber than decay. I wanna see the picts of that pin cushion. High level target area too.

PS...Stop using codit as a verb! It's inventor would turn over...... Not very becoming of a BCMA.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 20, 2009)

treevet said:


> Cracks take down more lumber than decay.


Pop E. Cock.


> I wanna see the picts of that pin cushion. High level target area too.


Please note the braces are a backup to the cables--right jomoco?


> PS...Stop using codit as a verb! It's inventor would turn over...... Not very becoming of a BCMA.


i'll turn in the cert before spelling out "compartmentalization" every time...o and PPS it was used as a noun! As a verb, maybe I should say "wall off", ok? Sheesh, critics...:spam:


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## tree MDS (Jan 20, 2009)

Now that I look at those pics again it looks like that was an old crack that codit took care of as best it could a long time ago (see that deformed bulge).
Now a storm or gust brought out the weakness that was already there maybe?? The two cracks in succession bother me the most, that thing almost broke I'll bet. Just some thoughts.


----------



## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Pop E. Cock.



Great AS name!


----------



## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

PS..Trees can stand a lot of decay, throw in a few cracks or one strategic one and....Ram's horns a real good source.


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## tree MDS (Jan 20, 2009)

*Seriously though...*

Yeah, its Achilles last stand baby! Get the saw! lol.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 20, 2009)

I got enough video of me rodding that crack today to bore both of you guys to tears.

It'll be 1/2 an hour or so until it finishes uploading on youtube though.

jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

Kool


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## jomoco (Jan 20, 2009)

Friggin helmet cam orientation is killing me!

1 of 11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeJaSmUlRiQ


----------



## jomoco (Jan 20, 2009)

I'm gonna cut to the chase out of sheer frustration with my helmet cam here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa1ucSTo04k

Frustration however is the mother of invention, and I just now had a multimillion dollar thought!

jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 20, 2009)

You know what, ...if you save that branch it keeps from throwing a huge whole in the canopy. More power to ya.  Good work. (sticky tho I bet)


----------



## (WLL) (Jan 20, 2009)

i gave you the first rating of the last vid. i must say its very boring for me to watch but saving that awesome tree is top shelf why don't ya show us the vid of you jumping off the roof ta get inta that pigoke:


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## oldirty (Jan 20, 2009)

i agree. good effort jomoco.

hey. whats the deal with the cam? is their a better angle/lens?


----------



## jomoco (Jan 20, 2009)

oldirty said:


> i agree. good effort jomoco.
> 
> hey. whats the deal with the cam? is their a better angle/lens?



Problems, if they're common enough, are money making opportunities, and while our industry is a tiny fraction of the general populace, it's the answers direct application to other huge industries and sports suffering the same woes that can be very lucrative.

So give me a month or two to research this thought/invention.

Rather ironic that it's also an alignment solution.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 27, 2009)

Had a frustrating day dealing with unexpected logistics and supply problems but did finally get some real work done upstairs.












Note the bumps and bulges in this new 3/8ths ehs 7 strand cable, with some fairly serious tension on it.


jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 27, 2009)

I am curious as to the manufacturer of your dead ends on you EHS cable to solicit them for capacities. Have you researched this? Do you consider this the weakest link? Anchor...cable...termination. Is it in Blair's equipment book? It is not in Sherrill. Nothing in ANSI chart.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 27, 2009)

treevet said:


> I am curious as to the manufacturer of your dead ends on you EHS cable to solicit them for capacities. Have you researched this? Do you consider this the weakest link? Anchor...cable...termination. Is it in Blair's equipment book? It is not in Sherrill. Nothing in ANSI chart.



I get them from Bishops in LA.

I'll check the actual manufacturer for you tomorrow Dave.

jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 27, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I get them from Bishops in LA.
> 
> I'll check the actual manufacturer for you tomorrow Dave.
> 
> jomoco



Thanks. I likely am heading that way because of the restrictions in ANSI for dia of limb with common grade (spliceable) and the inclusion of dead ends in the standard.


----------



## pdqdl (Jan 27, 2009)

jomoco said:


> [parts deleted]
> 
> Note the bumps and bulges in this new 3/8ths ehs 7 strand cable, with some fairly serious tension on it.
> 
> ...



Unequal loading on the strands is the most probable cause of your bumps & bulges. Something on that strand is pulling harder on just a few of the wires. The heavily loaded wires then are forced to squeeze the more lightly loaded wires to the side as they are drawn out of their spiral wrap into a slightly straighter path. The entire strand is deformed by unequal pressures on the individual wires.

Look real close, you will see it.

This is also possible as a manufacturing defect cause by the same problem. 

How did you terminate your strand? eye & cable clamps, or with a grip? Eye & cable clamps are well known to cause uneven loading on the strand. Pre-tension before completely tightening the cable clamps might help.


----------



## treevet (Jan 27, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> How did you terminate your strand? eye & cable clamps,



ANSI....33.4.8 Wire rope clamps SHALL (not should) not be used to form terminations in cables larger than 1/8 inch (3 mm).

Never used them anyway (Neither does Jomoco I doubt) but interesting to read this.


----------



## jomoco (Jan 27, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Unequal loading on the strands is the most probable cause of your bumps & bulges. Something on that strand is pulling harder on just a few of the wires. The heavily loaded wires then are forced to squeeze the more lightly loaded wires to the side as they are drawn out of their spiral wrap into a slightly straighter path. The entire strand is deformed by unequal pressures on the individual wires.
> 
> Look real close, you will see it.
> 
> ...



Galvinized cable grips, the orange ones for 3/8ths 7 strand. Very fast, very easy, and extremely durable. Ansi approved.

jomoco


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## pdqdl (Jan 28, 2009)

Did you use EHS strand, or just regular strand? 
Are the galvanized grips EHS or just regular strand?
Is it possible to have a conflict between EHS strand and a non-EHS cable grip?

I don't do enough cabling to know the answers, so please don't presume that I am questioning your installation. I do know that the strands are either deformed from the manufacturer, or from unequal loading on the individual wires. That unequal loading is guaranteed to compromise the breaking strength of your installation.

Regarding cable clamps and ANSI standards: I suspect that standard only applies to "strand" wire rope, because "grips" don't exist for conventional wire rope "cables". Those MUST be cable clamped with either conventional clamps or with "swages". Swaging takes big hydralic equipment to do right, and I don't think too many guys want to put that stuff up in a tree.


----------



## treevet (Jan 28, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Did you use EHS strand, or just regular strand?
> Are the galvanized grips EHS or just regular strand?
> Is it possible to have a conflict between EHS strand and a non-EHS cable grip?
> 
> ...



I am not able to send links (would love to have someone pm me and tell me how to do it) but there is some very good info in the article that will answer many questions if you type in and search this:

Using Tree-Grip Dead-Ends with Common-Grade "Cable"


----------



## JeffL (Jan 28, 2009)

That cracked limb, did you do a through-rod and nuts and washers, or a coarse thread rod only partially through the limb?


----------



## pdqdl (Jan 28, 2009)

treevet said:


> I am not able to send links (would love to have someone pm me and tell me how to do it) but there is some very good info in the article that will answer many questions if you type in and search this:
> 
> Using Tree-Grip Dead-Ends with Common-Grade "Cable"



Search google, it is the top reference. 

[Note for posting links: ]
1. Right mouse click on the link in google, choose "copy link location"
2. Paste (shift-insert works well) into your message, as shown below.


http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/arbNews/pdfs/Dec06-cc.pdf


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## jomoco (Jan 28, 2009)

JeffL said:


> That cracked limb, did you do a through-rod and nuts and washers, or a coarse thread rod only partially through the limb?



Through rods with nuts and large washers, one that was 1/2 inch, and a second larger one at 5/8ths.

Look carefully at the 2 pics of the bulging 3/8ths ehs 7 strand cable in my post above, the lateral on the right is that cracked and cabled branch with the rods in it, look carefully and you can see the nuts and washers of the rods on top of that cracked lateral.

Treevet, my cable grips are manufactured by Preformed Products of Cleveland Ohio, and yes they are ehs. All my eyebolts are Chicago Drop Forged.

I've got some good vids of today's work, and will post them here in a few hours.

jomoco


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## jomoco (Jan 28, 2009)

Today I replaced a big cable that was so far out of alignment it was a hazard, I'm sure it was a way out of alignment cable just like this that twisted the big leader off this torrey that triggered my being consulted to evaluate these trees a year ago.








Now that cable is so out of alignment it's shocking!

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 28, 2009)

Now here's a shot of where that misaligned cable went.







Look closely and you'll see that the other eyebolt is also out of alignment in the opposite direction!

High wind must've twisted the sap out of those big leaders!

Vids of my replacement cable next.

jomoco


----------



## treevet (Jan 28, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Treevet, my cable grips are manufactured by Preformed Products of Cleveland Ohio, and yes they are ehs. All my eyebolts are Chicago Drop Forged.
> 
> 
> jomoco



The link mentioned prior to your post, an article by Mark Adams, details the history of preformed tree grip dead ends with the company that mfctrs. your parts Preformed Line Products, Cleveland Ohio, from its start after WWII to 1978 when they produced them at the request of Davey Tree. They were previously made for many different applications. 

It mentions that the cable grip dead ends can be used with common grade and that when they are, they are stronger than the cable itself. It does not mention the strength relative to the EHS cable (strand) but I would venture a guess that the EHS may be stronger than the dead end. I will check further. At any rate.....

It makes little or no sense to use common grade when the EHS is so much stronger and the dead ends are stronger and a smaller, lighter, better application can be used. 

In the history it mentions that from the beginning resistance was given from the industry as the installation of a well spliced cable end was considered a sign of professionalism. I personally can attest to that as I learned to cable in 1969.


----------



## treevet (Jan 28, 2009)

In those pictures the eye should be backed to the stem. Besides being out of alignment, the exposed shaft has potential for failure by bending. That can happen when a person depends on the eyebolt to give the tension and they over estimate the revolutions it will take to get it. If you are not real good at it, better to set the eyes and then torque the cable with choker, come a long, cable grip.


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## jomoco (Jan 28, 2009)

Vid of the bogusly aligned cable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XQKabnAOSI

Then placing the first alignment tube in position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltyx-UPUyE

And the completed new perfectly aligned 3/8 ehs seven strand cable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMrV1dPqE4Y

Note that I did not cable to the same leader the old cable was attached to, I went exactly 180 degrees opposite to the big leader going over the towers roof, about 40 feet away. I was very pleased with the result.

jomoco


----------



## jomoco (Jan 28, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> It sure is. If put under much stress I would have expected the bolt to be bent by now.



Oh it was bent alright Treeco, atleast an inch and a half out of true.

jomoco


----------



## treevet (Jan 28, 2009)

You know, as we discuss professional cabling in trees and ANSI standards it may be interesting to consider that, although new systems and materials may not be in the standard (Cobra, Rigguy, etc.), neither are they scorned. 

The reason for this is likely that they do not have the time nor the resources to research these products/systems and they, obviously cannot take, at their word alone, the research done by the provider or manufacturer.

It is just unfortunate for them that in this, a time of formulation of standards, they may be omitted or ostracized and still possibly be completely viable and reasonable in their offerings.

I was looking through a few old Sherrill catalogs for strength ratings on the dead ends they sell and was surprised to find next their product of "J Lags" a statement that read as following:

"Average holding capacity of J lags in solid green wood (based on 1936 study)". 

1936 ?!?!? MAN...is that the last study done on materials. These things take time, money and manpower. Our guiding orgs. should be in the middle of these endeavors.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 28, 2009)

It must be really cold in Ohio and nothing on T.V. I can appreciate jomoco's posts and pics (when he works out that cam prob ). I kinda think that your critique could be best addressed in the form of a "New Thread".
Jeff Lovstrom


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## jomoco (Jan 28, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> It must be really cold in Ohio and nothing on T.V. I can appreciate jomoco's posts and pics (when he works out that cam prob ). I kinda think that your critique could be best addressed in the form of a "New Thread".
> Jeff Lovstrom



POV1 wide angle baby!

My current helmet cam is killin me!

jomoco


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## Ekka (Jan 29, 2009)

Lordy help the people chipping that tree in years to come!

Perhaps sell it to a scrap metal yard. :hmm3grin2orange: 

IMO, overkill.

Needs lightning protection now, more wires than local exchange opcorn:


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## treevet (Jan 29, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> It must be really cold in Ohio and nothing on T.V. I can appreciate jomoco's posts and pics (when he works out that cam prob ). I kinda think that your critique could be best addressed in the form of a "New Thread".
> Jeff Lovstrom



Pretty stupid post Jeff. This was not a critique, although I do not agree with all that Jomoco does. This is simply a dialogue on the aspects of "professional cabling in trees" and my input involved terminations. This, being a forum, involves posters (me, etc.) making comments on the topic (thread). I have a lot of experience and knowledge from cabling for 40 years and I enjoy exchanging opinions and hard facts. If this was not the case......then every post would be from Jomoco and any reply would be....yeah....your right.....good point...or way to go Jo....

If you were the thread police, then it probably would say "moderator" under your name. Engage your brain a little prior to talking (posting), you might learn something. (and I might be one of the ones to teach it to you).


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 29, 2009)

Wow! I stand humbled and in awe of your beating on me for my opinion and I hope you can forgive me.
Jeff Lovstrom
( who am I, anyway)


----------



## treevet (Jan 29, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Wow! I stand humbled and in awe of your beating on me for my opinion and I hope you can forgive me.
> Jeff Lovstrom
> ( who am I, anyway)



apology accepted jeffy


----------



## jomoco (Jan 30, 2009)

Did something somewhat unusual today in the big Torrey pine I'm cabling.

The board of directors that run these highrise luxury condos had received numerous complaints from both residents and guests about being shat upon while in the pool area by ocean birds perched in the very tree I'm working.

Now sea gulls are one thing, but pelicans and egrets? Sounded like a valid complaint to me.

In an effort to be responsive to the residents complaints, the chairman bought a good size mean looking plastic owl made in china of course, and presented it to me with a request that I place it on a specific limb that these larger birds liked, and the people below infringed upon rather rudely.

Luckily for me the favorite limb had a handy large branch over it for a retag.

And while I hate j lags with a passion for cabling purposes, two of the little 1/4 inch lags screwed into the top of the target branch were perfect to stuff the owl over securely and give the illusion of it being perched there on alert and looking west for any tasty sea birds coming into his tree.

Here's a bogus video of my chinese raptor installed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uAKLYOPOzs

jomoco


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## jomoco (Feb 4, 2009)

Finished cabling the Torrey pines today, but something was bothering me about the northern Torrey, the largest of the two. It did not have the vibrant dark green needles like the southern Torrey did, nor seem as healthy as the southern tree.

I think I know what the problem is after a close look at the northern tree's base.

Check out this vid of the base and post what you think the problem I found is.

Watch it without the audio if you think you can figure out the problem yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEWPfab-8Y

No cheating now!

jomoco


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## tree MDS (Feb 5, 2009)

Looks like its time for the air spade??


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## tree MDS (Feb 5, 2009)

I had to hold my laptop to my head..but i think I heard something about an airspade. lol.

That was pretty easy.

Jo, I assume your going to mulch that bad boy as well, correct??


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## jomoco (Feb 5, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I had to hold my laptop to my head..but i think I heard something about an airspade. lol.
> 
> That was pretty easy.
> 
> Jo, I assume your going to mulch that bad boy as well, correct??



I'm not going to do anything other than recommend they re-establish the original grade at the root flare and create a 25 foot radius around each tree filled with large 3 inch pebble stones, no more lawn right up to the trunk!

My worry is that the northern tree's grade change happened happened so long ago that it has put out advantageous roots above the root flare.

I'll make the recommendation, then leave it for someone else to do the remedial dirt work.

jomoco


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## tree MDS (Feb 5, 2009)

So you think the stones would work better than the mulch?? 

Down in FL we were going around this neighborhood taking down all these Laurel Oaks that had died due to something or another (drought I'll assume, cant remember, I was young), and in the only yard where the Laurels were still alive, the trees had had the turf removed and been mulched. I'll never forget that, pretty cool.


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## jomoco (Feb 5, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> So you think the stones would work better than the mulch??
> 
> Down in FL we were going around this neighborhood taking down all these Laurel Oaks that had died due to something or another (drought I'll assume, cant remember, I was young), and in the only yard where the Laurels were still alive, the trees had had the turf removed and been mulched. I'll never forget that, pretty cool.



The pebble stones are obviously not as desirable as a mulch base, but they are far more practical in such a highly manicured environment that has such high foot traffic and wind.

The trees themselves will lay down a thick layer of needles soon enough. I will recommend a small perimeter fence around the pebble stone radius around each tree. Each irrigation drain on that property has the same 3 inch pebble stones around it that I'm recommending be used around the bases of these trees.

jomoco


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## woodchux (Feb 5, 2009)

Jomoco- you should download 'windows movie maker' (free)http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/moviemaker2.mspx
Then you can easily edit out your new videos


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## Xmaniac (Sep 22, 2022)

I use a laser pointer attached to my cordless makita hammer style drill to get perfect angles on the first hole. Once you set the first through bolt or rig eye, set the come a long up, pretension the cable and use it as a guide for the second hole.. I prefer through bolt hardware with ehs cable, preform grips. I use a large malleable washer, small normal washer, lock washer and then nut... cut off the excess bolt about 2 threads past the nut and peen it over... I do a lot of hub and spoke and ring systems for laterals with multiple forks.... less holes, cable, better support..


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## murphy4trees (Oct 1, 2022)

that's a little overkill bro


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## Xmaniac (Oct 4, 2022)

You say overkill, I call it passion and incorporating new technology to enhance the strength and longevity of a current application... hub and spoke isn't applicable many scenarios, but the use of a ring for large laterals with multiple forks, supports the entire head more evenly, as opposed to a single cable in the middle or off to one side... it's also less invasive than installing multiple single cable systems to support the branch. Less holes.


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## Xmaniac (Oct 4, 2022)

A few examples


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## mikewhite85 (Oct 5, 2022)

Xmaniac said:


> A few examples


Looks pretty slick! 

Another way with the same amount of cable and holes would be to use rig guys with the central hub they design. But I do think your ring idea is more fluid, especially if the angles aren't quite right. 

We do a lot of cabling, often X or triangle pattens but I've actually never used a central hub since I feel like it would be more difficult to set up or you would need to be more exact in your measurements to get the hub right in the middle. Was there a learning curve when you first started doing those? When the right tree comes a long, I'd like to consider giving it a whirl.


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## Xmaniac (Oct 5, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> Looks pretty slick!
> 
> Another way with the same amount of cable and holes would be to use rig guys with the central hub they design. But I do think your ring idea is more fluid, especially if the angles aren't quite right.
> 
> We do a lot of cabling, often X or triangle pattens but I've actually never used a central hub since I feel like it would be more difficult to set up or you would need to be more exact in your measurements to get the hub right in the middle. Was there a learning curve when you first started doing those? When the right tree comes a long, I'd like to consider giving it a whirl.


I liked the rig guy's because installation is way easier. I do recommend using a laser pointer to get hole angles right and a malleable washer between the rig guy and stem to increase surface area contact. I've seen a lot of bad entry and exit hole angles, leading to cross loading the rig guy's, cable and excessive wearing to the entry/exit holes on the tree... I prefer a through bolt system myself with ehs cable and preformed grips. It makes adjustments easier, eliminates cambium rubbing if the angles aren't perfect and in hub and spoke systems, you can do as many legs that will fit on the ring...


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## Xmaniac (Oct 5, 2022)

Yes, there's definitely a learning curve like with anything else.... the key is to visually determine where the ring needs to be located to properly align all cabled candidates... when installing hub and spoke between multiple uprights, you want to center the ring between the 3,4,5,6 etc. Stems. Also in this configuration, it's recommended that they all are coming into the ring at the same level. You can't have 3 legs level and then one angled downwards more than 15°.. use a separate single cable system in this scenario. On lateral stems with multiple forks, set the ends on the branch first to set the optimal ring placement needed and adjust the legs or spokes accordingly... then set the upper/single cable with come a long. There's always short pieces of cable from over measurements or the end of the spool. I save these because they're perfect for hub and spoke cabling...it doesn't matter if the piece of cable is too long, don't fully terminate your preformed grips until all adjustments are made. you can cut the excess off later.


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## Xmaniac (Oct 5, 2022)

Multiple leg hub and spoke system on a tipuana tipu tree...


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## mikewhite85 (Oct 6, 2022)

I used to live in LA. Tipuanas are one of the trees I actually miss! They are a pleasure to work in. Excellent work, brother. Thanks for the info. 

I think it would take me all day to instal a 5 leg spoked system like that, even working in tandem with a bucket truck. I think I would have a few "oopsie" holes!


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## Xmaniac (Oct 6, 2022)

mikewhite85 said:


> I used to live in LA. Tipuanas are one of the trees I actually miss! They are a pleasure to work in. Excellent work, brother. Thanks for the info.
> 
> I think it would take me all day to instal a 5 leg spoked system like that, even working in tandem with a bucket truck. I think I would have a few "oopsie" holes!


Once you set the first 2 legs" start with the easiest, straightest angle stems to get your ring centered and stationary, I recommend setting these somewhat tight so the others don't cause slacking, then systematically add the rest, using the ring as a guide for drilling the individual holes in each stem....the laser pointer pen on back of drill definitely aids perfect hole placements...


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## tree MDS (Oct 6, 2022)

That’s awesome Xmaniac! You’re are a cabling guru!! That is no small thing! I suck at it and hate it!

I have seen those hubs a couple times in smaller trees (think old jap maple), but have always been intrigued by the ingenuity involved with then. Very impressive!! Thanks for posting!


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## Xmaniac (Oct 6, 2022)

Thanks for the compliment. I personally love cabling. In my 25+ years as a climber/Arborist I've seen lot's of tree's have failures that could've been mitigated by initial structural pruning to eliminate codominent or multiple stem unions, branches with poor attachments, tight V crotches... lion's tailing that promotes branch elongation, sunscald, flush cuts. Normally when us profesional certified arborists get to the tree finally, we have to mitigate the unfixable. The majority of large stem failures I come across, wouldn't of happened if they were cabled properly... and unfortunately, they end up being removals because of structural integrity being compromised.... being proactive and installing cables is ultimately less expensive than loosing a mature tree's property value, shade, oxygen, etc.


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## Xmaniac (Oct 6, 2022)

The milwaukee 3.5" battery cut off tool works awesome for cutting your ehs cable... I use the mini Sawzall for cutting the eye bolt ends. Just cut 3/4s the way through, about 2 thread lengths from nut. then wack it with the small mallet you use to mushroom over the thread's. A go thru style socket set makes life a lot easier for all thread and through bolts..... a nice chisel and pair of vise grips make things easier too. I use a tenex multiple eye daisy chain type sling for attaching the come a long.


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## Xmaniac (Oct 24, 2022)

randyg said:


> I use a laser pointer device that also gives distance up to 100 feet. Picked it up at a building supply store for like 80 bucks and use the snot out of it. Especially great for measuring long cables like anything over 15 feet, very accurate. Also handy to use as pointer and checking heights when bidding bucket work, side reach of bucket etc.
> 
> With 2' of drill bit and another foot and half of drill, I can eyeball the opposing limb (target) and 9 out of 10 times after 1st hole is bored, I put eye right up to tree and look through hole and see the entire limb. That 1 in 10 I can at least see part of the limb. Everyone is looking for this laser accuracy but lets face it, when the wind starts to blow, those laser sights will be scanning all around like some laser light show anyway right?


I totally recommend a laser pointer pen which I place on the back of my makita cordless heavy duty hammer drill... this let's you set the first hole perfectly angled and in line to the other stem, making sure it's free of possible obstructing branches and getting the best hole placements... insert through bolt, large malleable washer, lock washer and nut. Tighten, keeping eye in line and cut off after 2 threads past nut... peen with hammer to save the squirrels!! Terminate this cable end with thimble and preformed grip....taking a measurement with an accessory line helps with long spans... depending if you have another climber or using a aerial lift... a good groundman can visually the cable out on the ground from one approximate location to the other and add a foot or so too... I use excess small lengths for hub and spoke systems all the time... on the second bolt hole. If you set the come a long about 4 inches underneath your preferred, predetermined by laser point, attach it to the cable by havens grip, cam facing upwards, then tension it a little past taught. You can follow the come a long as a true jig or guide to get a perfect angle... then install hardware, leave a few wraps of the preformed grip unterminated, also any excess cable can be bent over and cut off too after proper tensioning is achieved... I prefer to leave a little extra cable past the preformed grip for future adjustment, I bend it upwards a tad to clear the thimble, even though it looks tacky to me. The client won't even notice it....then terminate preformed grip thoroughly... always try and find the best entry and exit hole locations possible to eliminate or minimize the need for chiseling out bark/cambium material, opposing angles are preferred... on large bifurcation type laterals a ring can installed from the main support cable and split into 2,3 or more cables to properly balanced movement and support....


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