# Sticky cottonwood situation. Need advice.



## bootboy (Jan 27, 2012)

I will post pics soon.

Here's the deal. A cluster of BIG cottonwoods 100'+ tall growing near a stream bed. About 2 months ago we had a nasty wind storm that partially uprooted a tall, skinny (36" at base and 50' to first bifurcation) and it is now leaning at a 45 degree angle into a neighboring tree resting on a branch about 35-40' up. No structures threatened, and fortunately none of the other trees are involved. I'm confident that removing the leaner can be done safely. My plan is to have 2 tie in points in large nearby trees and remove the portion of the leaner above the branch that it now rests on. Once reduced to more or less the main trunk what is the best plan of action? I really need to get some pics up but I've been losing sleep over this job for weeks. I've got loads of rope and rigging gear so I'm prepared to get as elaborate as I need to if it means doing it in the safest way possible.

Thoughts?

I need to get this done or at least have a solid plan in place so can stop dreaming about it.


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## imagineero (Jan 27, 2012)

You are right to get advice, those sort of trees are about as dangerous as they come. One wrong move can be the last you'll ever make. This is the sort of situation that can be out of the league of regular tree guys and stepping into the bounds of experienced fallers who deal with similar situations on a daily basis. When normal people have a go it makes for some great youtube footage if nobody is killed.

Do get pics up before listening to any advice given. As a rough general in those sort of situations, my order of approach is;

Pulling the hanger down is the best situation. Not as hard as it sounds sometimes, just need a big enough piece of plant to haul, and a big rope. Set it high and down she comes. 

Climbing the tree it's hung up is sometimes the second best thing. At least you're above the hanger, dont let your rope hang down low. Can be better to leave the top in to let it fall if it can. If not, assess and plan before proceeding. 

Sometimes you can notch the leaner at the base in the normal way, and cut one side of the hinge out after the back cut is made to 'roll' the leaner out of the other tree. Plenty of potential for injury - tree can barber chair, or roll back on you, root ball can kick up, etc.

Cutting the tree the leaner is hung up on is starting to step into deep danger territory.

If you have access to dynamite.....

Shaun


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## bootboy (Jan 27, 2012)

I'll get pics up in the next day or two. I think the limbs may be tangled up enough that pulling it out is not an option without first cutting. The good news is that there are other large trees nearby so tie in points are convenient. I'd like to do as little as possible on the ground, cutting something while hanging above it feels better than being underneath it, ya know? I feel like that way, if I keep my climbing line(s) tidy that the tree will go but one way, down, and if it got ugly I could simply swing out of the way. I've been climbing for recreation since I was a wee lad and feel right at home on the end of a rope.

Funny you should mention dynamite... I ski patrol at a local resort where we use 200+ charges on a busy morning after a storm for avalanche control. That's why I'm up so early today, avalanche control. I don't need the ATF coming to my house though. I certainly don't want to go to prison

Like I said, I'll get pics up and we can put our heads together. This business of losing sleep thinking about it is getting old.


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## bootboy (Jan 27, 2012)

As a side note, how much does one charge for a job like this? Alone, standing upright, the tree would be at least $1500. How much does the hazardous removal change things?


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## tree MDS (Jan 27, 2012)

bootboy said:


> As a side note, how much does one charge for a job like this? Alone, standing upright, the tree would be at least $1500. How much does the hazardous removal change things?



Good question! I have been wondering about such things myself. :msp_sneaky:


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

If it's not over a structure then cutting it from the ground and pulling it out from a safe distance is your best bet in most situations.


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## Kottonwood (Jan 27, 2012)

The tallest cottonwood in the country is 105 ft tall..... so your measurements may be a bit off.

Either way the best thing to do is get a rope in it and yank it down, or climb the other tree and cut the top out until there is only a tiny bit holding it on, then yank it down with a rope. Make sure you are always above the hanger when cutting and sometimes I like to keep my climb line in a rope bag so it can't get snagged if the widow maker goes. I have never had to deal with one that big before, most widow makers I deal with are 50-60 ft creek willows over hiking paths or something. 

Edit: also remember once you start removing weight from the top of the tree it may decide to stand back up straight..... doubt it with a tree of that size, but be prepared for it.

As far as charging for emergency work. I usually just add some on for the extra time it is going to take to figure things out and be safe since it is not a typical job. I also add on about 20 a man hour if we are out there at weird hours to get it done. 

Pics, FTA?


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## Toddppm (Jan 27, 2012)

He's definitely guessing but there are alot of Cottonwoods bigger than that. Even around here they get that tall. Just had me wondering, the first result that came up was some random webpage that said 105', here's the champion tree site Populus deltoides ssp. deltoides | American Forests


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## Kottonwood (Jan 27, 2012)

bootboy said:


> I'll get pics up in the next day or two. I think the limbs may be tangled up enough that pulling it out is not an option without first cutting. The good news is that there are other large trees nearby so tie in points are convenient. I'd like to do as little as possible on the ground, cutting something while hanging above it feels better than being underneath it, ya know? I feel like that way, if I keep my climbing line(s) tidy that the tree will go but one way, down, and if it got ugly I could simply swing out of the way. I've been climbing for recreation since I was a wee lad and feel right at home on the end of a rope.
> 
> Funny you should mention dynamite... I ski patrol at a local resort where we use 200+ charges on a busy morning after a storm for avalanche control. That's why I'm up so early today, avalanche control. I don't need the ATF coming to my house though. I certainly don't want to go to prison
> 
> Like I said, I'll get pics up and we can put our heads together. This business of losing sleep thinking about it is getting old.



HAHA well if you want to take it down with some dynamite I might let you in on some tried and true formulas....... if you promise to get some video and not implicate me when you kill yourself.


Personally I would stick with climbing it. Don't even think about cutting the tree it is leaning into..... all sorts of recipes for disaster in that mix


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## Kottonwood (Jan 27, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> He's definitely guessing but there are alot of Cottonwoods bigger than that. Even around here they get that tall. Just had me wondering, the first result that came up was some random webpage that said 105', here's the champion tree site Populus deltoides ssp. deltoides | American Forests



Really.... damn I guessI have been duped. There is a cottonwood tree here in CO that is 105ft tall and is considered a champion tree..... it's supposed to be the tallest. Maybe it is just for a "plains cottonwood"


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## formationrx (Jan 27, 2012)

*geez*

use another tree to let down the leaner.


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## flushcut (Jan 27, 2012)

Pics would be nice but from what you have described hike up the supporting tree and pop off the limb holding it. Also if you have never done tree work before hire somebody who has, big hang ups are NOT for learning on. Stay safe.


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## imagineero (Jan 27, 2012)

bootboy said:


> As a side note, how much does one charge for a job like this? Alone, standing upright, the tree would be at least $1500. How much does the hazardous removal change things?



Surprisingly little. 

If you have the skills it isn't any extra work. If you don't, you shouldn't be doing it. Experienced fallers can take something like that out so quick it will make you dizzy, and it might cost no more than a carton of beer. Having an eye for where the tension, compression and balance is on a tree takes time and experience, but when you've got it... making the cut doesn't take any extra time. Experienced sawyers have an understanding of the nuance and mechanics of a notch that it's borderline black magic.

You might consider getting a quality faller in just to get her on the ground. Ask around in the logging forum. You might learn something. Just be sure you get someone who is good rather than someone who talks good, and don't think that just because he does it in a second that you could do it in a second on your next tree. Pay attention, ask questions and you'll pick up some pointers. You could easily factor it into the job and maybe even make more money off the job that way. Nice to have a second saw for bucking and limbing, but don't be ever thinking that a logger will drag brush. Once the saw work is done, give the nice man some money, thank him and let him go.

Better than attending a course, no risk of damage to your gear, and no chance of killing yourself. Could be worth a try. 

Shaun


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## tree md (Jan 27, 2012)

I do a lot of uprooted trees in storm situations. Very rarely do I have one that does not need to be lowered from over a structure. It's nice when you have other large trees around to tie in to as well as set a rigging line to lower. I will do that in most situations where I can. I rig the top out down to the pressure point then come down, cut from the ground and hang the rest of the tree out of another one to lower it. If there is no other tree around to rig from I will call in a crane in most cases when it is over a structure.

Here is one that I lowered from over a property in a storm damaged area. The Pine in the foreground was uprooted and hung up in another pine over a million+ dollar property. I am setting a bull line in the tree I took the pic from:


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## superjunior (Jan 27, 2012)

formationrx said:


> use another tree to let down the leaner.



or even two if they're available. plus that could help with placement. really need pics to offer any sound advise


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## formationrx (Jan 27, 2012)

*....*

your on it SJ....


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## formationrx (Jan 27, 2012)

*thats 2*

you got it too tree md.....:rolleyes2:


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## bootboy (Jan 27, 2012)

Ok so my measurements were from memory and I looked again. The tallest is near ~85'. Regardless, they are large trees for our area. I've done tree work before. I'm no pro but I'm no hack either. At the angle that it's leaning and the disruption of the ground and roots at its base, having it stand back up is the least of my concerns. I'm not sure I'll have daylight to take pics today after work or not. If so I'll post them. As I mentioned before, to get it free enough to pull out would require a fair amount of cutting above the contact point. I think it's too close to the trunk of the tree it's leaning on to cut the branch it's resting on.

Need pics... I know


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## no tree to big (Jan 27, 2012)

the way it sounds you have not done much tree work and should not be attemting a situation like this:monkey: hope you make it back to the site to tell us how it went...


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## bootboy (Jan 30, 2012)

Problem solved. High explosives, 1kg of PETN. Bore the trunk and stack a few of these in there.
Just kidding. Getting pics today.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 30, 2012)

If you can't put that little ####er on the ground without asking advice you should put your saw back in your truck and hang your head in shame. Maybe give the custy a quote to mow the lawn or something more within your scope. I hear blowing out gutters is a very lucrative business these days.


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## bootboy (Jan 30, 2012)




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## bootboy (Jan 30, 2012)




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## bootboy (Jan 30, 2012)

Blakesmaster said:


> If you can't put that little ####er on the ground without asking advice you should put your saw back in your truck and hang your head in shame. Maybe give the custy a quote to mow the lawn or something more within your scope. I hear blowing out gutters is a very lucrative business these days.



Thank you for being so helpful.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Jan 30, 2012)

bootboy said:


> Thank you for being so helpful.



bootboy, dont take it to hard, blake is trying to tell you to post this in 101 thread, not here in the commercial tree care&climbing...you will get better replys there, thats were we go to help you youngsters out


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## capecodtree (Jan 30, 2012)

*cottonwoods*

You mentioned the trees are by water, around here any tree work within 100' of wetlands needs at the very least a request for determination of applicability run by the conservation commission, even emergency work. I know this does not help you with your original request for help, but it could go a long way with you're reputation and save both you and the property owner from serious fines. We had a conservation officer in my town pull his gun on a homeowner for pruning his rosa rugosa! I do a lot of conservation filings, contact me if I can help. Jim


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## tree md (Jan 30, 2012)

capecodtree said:


> You mentioned the trees are by water, around here any tree work within 100' of wetlands needs at the very least a request for determination of applicability run by the conservation commission, even emergency work. I know this does not help you with your original request for help, but it could go a long way with you're reputation and save both you and the property owner from serious fines. We had a conservation officer in my town pull his gun on a homeowner for pruning his rosa rugosa! I do a lot of conservation filings, contact me if I can help. Jim



Err.... Ummm...

I can almost guarantee you that Utah is not a communist country like Taxachussettes... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## no tree to big (Jan 30, 2012)

bootboy said:


>



your doin it wrong...:msp_tongue: all i see is a big red X


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## treeman75 (Jan 30, 2012)

Looks pretty straight forward to me. I see a couple ways of doing it but if you have been loosing sleep over it you might be best to call a pro. If it were me I might try tying the butts off to the bigger tree by the stumps and make a cut a few feet off the ground to keep the butt from going back into the ground. Now the tree might want to kick back and this is where you might want to have some experince. Once its cut free you might be able to tie a rope to the butt and pull it out with somthing. If that dont work you can always climb it and piece it out.


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## no tree to big (Jan 30, 2012)

capecodtree said:


> You mentioned the trees are by water, around here any tree work within 100' of wetlands needs at the very least a request for determination of applicability run by the conservation commission, even emergency work. I know this does not help you with your original request for help, but it could go a long way with you're reputation and save both you and the property owner from serious fines. We had a conservation officer in my town pull his gun on a homeowner for pruning his rosa rugosa! I do a lot of conservation filings, contact me if I can help. Jim



haha today we were floppin trees into the river and across the river (more like a creek at that spot) and winching them through the river bed and guess what... the county forestry guys were telling us to do it!!! guess it makes a difference when there the ones paying the bill


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## capecodtree (Jan 30, 2012)

*Con. Comm.*

I hope my remarks about Con. comm. do not apply to you. I'm envious. Be safe and good luck.


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## tree md (Jan 30, 2012)

Make no mistake, that tree is under tension and is a man killer. What I would do is tie it off and hang it out of the tree it's hung up in. Make undercuts from the bottom and lower it when it rolls out.


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## mikewhite85 (Jan 30, 2012)

Sounds like a tricky situation. I think I would charge an extra grand on top of the 1500. That way if it takes an extra day because you are being extra careful with the leaner you don't lose money on your crew and your workers comp. But if you get it done in one day you get a nice chunk of change.


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## mikewhite85 (Jan 30, 2012)

Oh and if you don't get the job because the price is too high don't sweat it- it's not worth it if you are going to try risky things to get it done faster.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Jan 31, 2012)

*leaner cottonwood*

The county call us for any tall trees the bucket truck wont reach. Cottonwood had been washed out along creek bank. Leaning into another oak and cottowood. Yes, used two different ty in points. Always stay out of movement direct direction of main trunk. Be on the side when possible. Tie off main trunk is a option. Two or three trunk anchors if neccessary. Factor this in for pricing your job. Maybe small cuts or one log lower down in a unit. Do what your comfortable with. Remember extreme weight will stretch your rope. Use a extra rope or two. Good Luck!


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## bootboy (Jan 31, 2012)

the pictures were working earlier.:bang:

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## bootboy (Jan 31, 2012)

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## sgreanbeans (Jan 31, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Really.... damn I guessI have been duped. There is a cottonwood tree here in CO that is 105ft tall and is considered a champion tree..... it's supposed to be the tallest. Maybe it is just for a "plains cottonwood"



Yeah man, they get way bigger than that. The first time I meet JPS in person, he came to look at a MONSTER, he even shook his head and it takes alot to do that. Guessing it was 160-170, 8 ft dia. DEAD! The guy, a friend, didn't have that kind of money. JPS suggested between 8 to 10g's. No wires, open parking lot, large house under one side. Well it worked out for my friend as he rented to a chick who had a meth head brother, he tried cooking meth and caught the house on fire, which , in turn caught the tree on fire. This went down while I was playin Marine. Guess it looked like something out of a movie, the whole tree was on fire. Fire Dept established a perimeter and watched, no one was willing to get near the house for fear the tree would fail. They said the top part burnt pretty quick, the trunk, not so much. Guess they used a excavator to push what was left over on to the burnt pile of rubbish that used to be the house. God I wish I could have seen it! Short story, Cottonwoods can get to epic sizes in the right location

To the OP, that doesn't look to difficult, but if you cant see it, get some one in, those deals can be real easy if done right, real, REAL, bad if done wrong. As others said, pick up some knowledge in the process


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Jan 31, 2012)

*pics*

Just saw your pics. Tall beanpole. Multiple ty in points above. Drop the top off. Trunk options? Ty top off at top contact for lowering. Only do this if saving vegatation below fall zone. If trunk able to fall through do it. The cut to release tension at top is toughest. You can ty off this tension piece, probable 2-4ft piece. Keep wood from moving into your work space. Under extreme preasure can snap off at only half cut thru and fly multiple feet. Top V cut and then undercut. No bar pinch. My crew worked multiple leaning trees in Arkansas after ice storm. Each tree has different danger issues. I was expecting a bigger tree diameter. One day down and out. Or half day drop and leave. You have to haul or leave it?


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## tree md (Jan 31, 2012)

Impossible to tell trunk diameter in pics. I bet most think the Pines I posted pics of earlier in the thread were pecker poles as well, when in reality both Pines were over 3' DBH.


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## bootboy (Jan 31, 2012)

The diameter of the leaner at bh is 24". Several of the trees in the stand are well over 36".


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## tree md (Jan 31, 2012)

It don't take one half that size to kill you if it decides to flop over on ya. If you've never done one like that get help.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Jan 31, 2012)

These trees are the fun ones to do. Gets away for the ordinary prune and removals.


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## bootboy (Feb 1, 2012)

The good news is that I'm going to wait a few months til it warms up. Our day time highs have been in the upper 30's. After all it is January in Utah. I've got smaller projects to keep me busy for a while and give me time to acquire more gear, come up with a plan and recruit some help


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## Treemanbrown (Feb 3, 2012)

*Cottonwood trees*

I work here in utah and have been working since the storm hit in december. Mostly fruit heights and kaysville but I know a very great crain service in salt lake if the trees are accesable look them up larsen crain they specialize in tree removal.


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## troythetreeman (Feb 3, 2012)

honestly doesnt look that tough but im sure there are variables i cant see
wedge cut the top side
under cut
drag it out or repeat
i dont see any reason to climb anything unless you want to be sure you dont break any of the trees more then they already are


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## bootboy (Feb 3, 2012)

The tree is up here in Ogden in my grandparents neighbors back yard. Not crane accessible. I just looked at it again today. Heres my plan: Climb and cut any branches that aren't holding weight. Basically limb the leaner down to the main trunk and cut the trunk just above the hang up, then notch and undercut at the base to get it off the stump, winch the base to one side or backwards till the top slips out of the other tree. Seems reasonably safe to me. I can cut all the non weight bearing branches with little risk of the tree going anywhere, then I can winch from a safe distance when the top comes free and the trunk falls. There are no structures or plants on the ground that I need to worry about, just ivy and under brush. Sound good? Looks like we'll be settling back into high pressure with no snow for a week or two, good chance of some warm dry days. Maybe I can get to it sooner than I thought. the more I think about it and study the tree, the better I feel about it.


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## arborjockey (Feb 3, 2012)

bootboy said:


> The good news is that I'm going to wait a few months til it warms up. Our day time highs have been in the upper 30's. After all it is January in Utah. I've got smaller projects to keep me busy for a while and give me time to acquire more gear, come up with a plan and recruit some help



what do you mean "Good news" your going to wait a few months??? start cutn son. I want pics.  dont B.S. :msp_sneaky:


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## bootboy (Feb 3, 2012)

"Good news" meaning I'm not rushed and have time to think about, gather knowledge and equipment, maybe recruit some help. There will be pictures and likely helmet cam footage. Don't you worry.


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## arborjockey (Feb 3, 2012)

bootboy said:


> "Good news" meaning I'm not rushed and have time to think about, gather knowledge and equipment, maybe recruit some help. There will be pictures and likely helmet cam footage. Don't you worry.



go pro 2 . they worked the kinks out of the fish eye lens. cant wait to get one for surfing. good luck. glad your going for another opinion. you spend 2 days rigging something a guys says is a 1 cut special and thats lost $.:msp_sneaky:


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## bootboy (Feb 4, 2012)

I have a gopro already


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## ROPECLIMBER (Feb 4, 2012)

I am leary to incourage anyone to try something that you cant see all angles of.
The tree in pic09 (loaded tree holdin up leaner) that some one is standing in front of has weak attached high v tri-dominent stems and looks to have some rot damage up there too, so I would not climb it. The (2) large up right Cotton woods guessing 36"-40" ones are on edge of the creek and have erroded roots with all the wieght on the creek side, I would not suggest to climb them.
I was looking at the pine with the top out of it, Can you rig the leaners to the base of pine through a arborist block and back to the large up right CW and use a 5:1 or a GWRS leave it slack when you make sallow face knotch toward the pine ,small leaner first for practice, this aint ax men, then seperatly rig the larger hung up one, use a shallow face cut and go up from center of face cut at least 10% of wood diameter for the back cut.
Leave about 15% holding wood then when you are clear load or help load riggiing to pull tree out with the 5:1 or winch it if you have the GWRS.
Dont cut through the holding wood. Use the rigging to pull it down and out and the holding wood will give mid fall,dont trust cotton woods,
Paul


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## bootboy (Feb 4, 2012)

The pine is too far away and I don't think it's tall enough to be of much use. I'm not concerned about climbing the trees. We've had 2 recent wind storms with 70+ mph winds. What hasn't broken is, in my estimation, safe to climb on. Anything that wont hold body weight is scattered on the ground. Several of these trees including the tree in question (holding the leaner) are slated for removal as well. I'll cut it and let the wood fall. I won't need to block any of it down, just free fall


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## ROPECLIMBER (Feb 4, 2012)

Cool then you can just spike up the tree on #09 reach over and drop suporting limb and bam, then back down, the pine looked closer and 90 degrees off from lean and hight wouldnt matter if yoy were using *base* to pull from, Hope it all works out,
Paul

PS here is an interesting long read some of the terms are different since UK
http://www.treevolution.co.uk/images/pdf/rr668.pdf


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## bootboy (Feb 4, 2012)

Box of goodies from wesspur is on its way. New large porta wrap (on sale right now btw) new 5/8 CMI block and various other odds 'n ends.


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## bootboy (Mar 11, 2012)

Got most of it taken care of today. Forgot pictures and film. I ended up cutting it off the stump and not knowing which way the tension was made it kinda hairy. I cut top and bottom alternately until I knew which way the tension was pulling. I used wedged to keep it from spinning onto my bar and pinching it. It twisted off the stump and then, after undercutting it again about 4' up, the tree fell most of the way out of the tree it was leaning in. I'll go back next week and finish it with pics.


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## swyman (Mar 11, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Really.... damn I guessI have been duped. There is a cottonwood tree here in CO that is 105ft tall and is considered a champion tree..... it's supposed to be the tallest. Maybe it is just for a "plains cottonwood"



Just checked my Trees of Michigan book by Linda Kershaw and our championship cottonwood is 148'!


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## bootboy (Mar 12, 2012)

Got that big SOB on the ground today. Only got my saw stuck once. All went without a hitch. Vids to come. I must say though, it was more intimidating once I got up there and saw the size of it all. Took my time was careful. Probably did some no-nos in the process, as I'm sure someone will be happy point out.


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## arborjockey (Mar 13, 2012)

Nice job Hause. Don't listen to these stay at home all winter guys. Oh no its leaning funny. I wouldn't do that :msp_scared:. Don't forget pics of your cuts. Main thing.:msp_sneaky: Don't make a liar out of me. Hope it went as smooth as you say.


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

I'm previewing my videos now. Already spotted a couple sloppy cuts. There are times when it looks my line is in a bad spot but just because it's there in one video doesn't mean I didn't move it for the cut. My lanyard and line were always clear of cut wood. Since I didn't have much moving around to do, I stayed srt for most of it. I didn't bother With a friction saver for drt. You'll see the part where I smashed my Rubbermaid that I keep all my rigging gear in. Oops no biggie. And the bummer is, I turned my camera off to get my saw unstuck at the end and miss the actual cut that freed the leaner. Dang! You can see it being lowered though.


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDPgPonKMWc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3M5FPixddA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHx3kLzdLZ4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQPd4pGSoqM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

A Few of the highlights

P.s. I never realized how much I move the saw around in the cut and now watching this it's driving me nuts. Hold still!


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## formationrx (Mar 13, 2012)

*lol...*

... you got it done and you are not hurt... that tree was good experience for you... you got testicular fortitude for even going up there... good job & thanks for sharing....


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrQQSdxdJ-s&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR28zxZ6PRw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_a5vziRBJ4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## bootboy (Mar 13, 2012)

Smashing the rubbermaid with all my rigging gear in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ18jY28v44&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 13, 2012)

Nice videos Thanks for taking time to upload them, glad you got it down safe, sorry about your tote, was probably theraputic after all, once you got centered, be carful on the rest of them I hate cotton woods, they break when you look at them wrong, be carful of those cancer stems, and of rigging to much from those high angled stems, great job glad you shared it, I liked the bike trail and river raft video's too. great resolution those close ups of the canker wood reafirm my dislike of cotton wood's. we had the top snap out on a couple of crane picks and Brandon had to swing around to keep from getting pinched on one on the fryingpan river swamp monsters.
Paul


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## bootboy (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for your remarks. This is definitely one of the biggest and most methodical of the trees I've done. I just tried to take my time, and small bites. Better to have to make a few extra cuts and small pieces than bite off too much and risk injury. Certainly good lessons learned on this one. 

Several of these trees will be coming out all together plus a few busted top pines. This yard will be a good cash cow for me this summer. The red house is my grandparents neighbor's and my gparents house is the one closer to the mountains. Neither one is in a huge hurry to get these done so I'll be able to get them done at my convenience over the summer. When work elsewhere slows down I can put in some days here. I just need some cheap bodies to haul rounds to my trailer. 

I'm going to need a MUCH bigger saw for the main trunks though. The biggest of the condemned trees (the one I'm climbing) is over 40" at it's base Woof. I'll consider it an investment. I'm hoping to net $3,000 by the end of it.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 14, 2012)

In Colorado they say you can go down a montain to slow a lot of times but you can only go down to fast once, yea i was hoping to get this big crane removal to justify a ms44 or ms46 but wasn't in the stars, couldnt believe the prices now the ms 440 was 963 + tax and had 25" bar, you may try subing out the base cuts, or renting the big saw, unless the net is with a payed off big saw,
Paul


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## arborjockey (Mar 14, 2012)

Good job. When you gunna cut the rest down? Watch the binding forces that happen when 2 trees are cought up. In the 1st video your foot on top made me flinch when you cut it. I was hoping the branch didn't pop up. B4 I give you two :msp_thumbup: how long have you been climbing?


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## bootboy (Mar 15, 2012)

The rest of the trees that are slated for removal will come down periodically over the summer. I wasn't worried about stepping on that trunk because it was the only point of contact between the two trees, the whole weight of the trunk from the ground up was straight down into that crotch. I see what you mean though about it coming up which is why you see me hesitate for just a moment in my cut, I wanted to just make absolutely sure it wasn't going to surprise me. 

I've been climbing seriously since last fall. I've been going up trees with hand saws since I was about 8 to remove small dead branches from the ash, maple and sycamore trees in my parents yard, just pruning type stuff. I've done lots of removals of small oak and aspen for a long time, but once again, easy stuff that can just drop. I've been reading and watching and learning and gearing up over the last several months and hope to make a little money by word-of-mouth jobs this summer. I will sub for my friend's yard care business so I just work under his business license.

I come from a strong rock climbing background so being at height on the end of a rope is no issue. I've obviously had to get used to new gear and techniques but I feel that many of the same physics principles apply. When lead climbing you have to constantly be analyzing the physics of a potential fall on your gear and adjust your placements as necessary. I feel that though they are worlds apart in their application, the basic skills of analysis and understanding are the same. My mind is just sort of used to thinking this way.

I'm contemplating getting my ISA cert through an apprenticeship with a local power company but it's full time and I can't afford to lose my benefits at my current job. I also have applications in to several schools for nursing so I'll have to see how that plays out. 

I love tree work and would love to be able to do it on a convenience basis, there's just so much of my life I have to get sorted out.


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## bootboy (Mar 15, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> In Colorado they say you can go down a montain to slow a lot of times but you can only go down to fast once, yea i was hoping to get this big crane removal to justify a ms44 or ms46 but wasn't in the stars, couldnt believe the prices now the ms 440 was 963 + tax and had 25" bar, you may try subing out the base cuts, or renting the big saw, unless the net is with a payed off big saw,
> Paul



I was quoted $950 otd for a ms460 28" by a local shop. That's hard to stomach. I'd like to find a used or fixer-upper 660 that I can get going for less than $500. I'm a handy wrench and a fast learner so I'd love one as a project saw to rebuild.


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## tree md (Mar 15, 2012)

Nice job. Beautiful country.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 15, 2012)

Wow i didnt think any stihl dealers dealed, mabe the guy in SA is high 950 out the door for the bigger saw, isnt as bad, there are some saws on the classifieds on here seems like I saw a almost new 440 for 800 shipped, I am going to work for Aspen tree in 3 weeks so would just sit for 7 months any way think I am going to sell a lot off and start again this fall, 
Paul

Yea beautiful country are you close to Colorado I will be working In Aspen, and Carbondale it is great country


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## bootboy (Mar 15, 2012)

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=678&ad=18285576&cat=&lpid=1

I'm about an hour north of Salt Lake City.


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## arborjockey (Mar 15, 2012)

Good job for only climbing since last fall. Linecrew, nursing schoo:frown:l, oh you short timer. Rock climbing stuff is exhausting to use in a tree. Forget that srt junk. What is that i see a Giri? Oh no. If your going to cut down that whole tree why didn't you spike it? Nursing school. You should of put this thread in the homeowner forum.


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## bootboy (Mar 15, 2012)

Thank you, and yes, I use a grigri. I don't use rock climbing gear other than that, which I don't even use when rock climbing, I was just saying that judgment and an eye for the dynamics are a useful analogues. Obviously very different gear and techniques. I spent alot of my time in that tree drt. Some of my footage you can't see my line and I'm likely drt. It got obnoxious though since I didn't have a friction saver around that massive branch. I didn't spike it because I don't have any. It's my next purchase for sure.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 15, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> Good job for only climbing since last fall. Linecrew, nursing schoo:frown:l, oh you short timer. Rock climbing stuff is exhausting to use in a tree. Forget that srt junk. What is that i see a Giri? Oh no. If your going to cut down that whole tree why didn't you spike it? Nursing school. You should of put this thread in the homeowner forum.



Wow! You are mean! :msp_ohmy:, I have been biting my tongue for month's! :msp_w00t: I am now a Lurker and some times chime in. BTW, you should not TUI! 
Just saying.
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## mattfr12 (Mar 15, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Wow i didnt think any stihl dealers dealed, mabe the guy in SA is high 950 out the door for the bigger saw, isnt as bad, there are some saws on the classifieds on here seems like I saw a almost new 440 for 800 shipped, I am going to work for Aspen tree in 3 weeks so would just sit for 7 months any way think I am going to sell a lot off and start again this fall,
> Paul
> 
> Yea beautiful country are you close to Colorado I will be working In Aspen, and Carbondale it is great country



My stihl dealer Cuts the price down a good bit for us. I've never paid what was on the sticker.


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## mattfr12 (Mar 15, 2012)

bootboy said:


> I was quoted $950 otd for a ms460 28" by a local shop. That's hard to stomach. I'd like to find a used or fixer-upper 660 that I can get going for less than $500. I'm a handy wrench and a fast learner so I'd love one as a project saw to rebuild.



Go on eBay I've bought 5-6 off eBay now and their all solid runners. I usually buy the ones that don't run. Because their very simple machines. Stumpy from the chainsaw end of the forums gets them once I do then he ports them and does the works. The 372xp he is doing for me now I'll still be at half the price of a new one and i picked up the big bore kit for it. Basically a new saw once you get it back.

He did a ms362 for me that pulled a 32" bar the same as a 460 when done. its about 1 second faster than my 441 now.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 15, 2012)

Mattfr12 you buy a lot more than me, I bought my 34 almost 20yrs back my 192 is 6years+ my 200 was 499 last fall my 028 is 20+ years old and the power prunner is a 2001 I think, and my blower is an antique too, I think you are a big out fit like Marquis, so he wants to keep your volume of buisness running through his shop.
Bootboy, I would look for the spikes with the longest gaff I wouldnt worry about the aluminum or tiatanium or the carbon fiber I tried all those from guys up at Aspen Geckos stuck out like a chicken claw and couldnt get the velcro tight on the calf, I use bucking ham with a regular t pad , Brandon uses the same but with the cast aluminum pads I like those and may up grade to those to me the lighter fansy ones didn't justify the price, but did borrow the alluminum climb rights and they were ok and about the same cost as the bucking hams,
Jeff what is TUI!
Paul


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 15, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Jeff what is TUI!
> Paul



'Typing Under the Influence'. 
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 15, 2012)

LOL thats funny, TUI


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## treemandan (Mar 15, 2012)

Yer a natural Boots. That's how its done. I thought you said there were no obstacles to avoid but man if you tried to dislodge that one from the ground it would have ended up on someone's deck.

What kind of saddle were you using, rock? Its Ok, it'll work. Looks like the knot you had the stainless block on was crappy. And Hell, you wanna gripe about how obnoxious it is without a friction saver? Dam, you sound like a princess allready!:msp_tongue:


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## bootboy (Mar 15, 2012)

If the tree was upright it would have been over a deck. But the way it had blown over was away from the deck. There was a small bridge but it was easy to avoid. I climb in a petzl Navaho. I wanted the sequoia but I got my navaho on pro price through my search and rescue group. My block was attached with a 5/8" loopie sling. In the vids I hadn't seated the sling. Right after the vid I cinched it all down and it looked sharp I use a half inch double braid line for my rigging. I'd like a 5/8" but that's down the road. I've looked at the climbrights and my local guy will match wesspurs price otd.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 15, 2012)

When I was in Aspen last fall didnt bring my spurs so every crew I got put on had different spurs, so I got to try them all the gm had the climb rights I liked the webing cast in the bottom of the footholds to give traction if you step out on a limb, the Geckos were the Crane operators and had European gaffs they were good on the thick bark of cotton woods but took some getting used to as far as the angles they hurt my ankles at the end of the day, I wish the cast aluminum pads fit the climb rights I think I will just put the CAds on my bucking hams, Do a search on here for favorite climing spurs or gaffs, seems like before I joined read a long thread they called them CADDYS,
Paul


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## mattfr12 (Mar 15, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Mattfr12 you buy a lot more than me, I bought my 34 almost 20yrs back my 192 is 6years+ my 200 was 499 last fall my 028 is 20+ years old and the power prunner is a 2001 I think, and my blower is an antique too, I think you are a big out fit like Marquis, so he wants to keep your volume of buisness running through his shop.
> Bootboy, I would look for the spikes with the longest gaff I wouldnt worry about the aluminum or tiatanium or the carbon fiber I tried all those from guys up at Aspen Geckos stuck out like a chicken claw and couldnt get the velcro tight on the calf, I use bucking ham with a regular t pad , Brandon uses the same but with the cast aluminum pads I like those and may up grade to those to me the lighter fansy ones didn't justify the price, but did borrow the alluminum climb rights and they were ok and about the same cost as the bucking hams,
> Jeff what is TUI!
> Paul



Nah just become friends with one. I just do all my business through them. Nuts, bolts, seeds, anything they sell. Known them for ten years. They even hang our brochures by the saws. So when a guy gets a bright idea he can put the saw back on the shelf and pull out his cell phone.


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## treemandan (Mar 16, 2012)

bootboy said:


> If the tree was upright it would have been over a deck. But the way it had blown over was away from the deck. There was a small bridge but it was easy to avoid. I climb in a petzl Navaho. I wanted the sequoia but I got my navaho on pro price through my search and rescue group. My block was attached with a 5/8" loopie sling. In the vids I hadn't seated the sling. Right after the vid I cinched it all down and it looked sharp I use a half inch double braid line for my rigging. I'd like a 5/8" but that's down the road. I've looked at the climbrights and my local guy will match wesspurs price otd.



That's what I meant: if you just tried to cut from the bottom it would have stood back up and went for a deck or something.

I wouldn't bother with the 5/8 rope, just go for 3/4.


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## tree md (Mar 16, 2012)

treemandan said:


> That's what I meant: if you just tried to cut from the bottom it would have stood back up and went for a deck or something.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the 5/8 rope, just go for 3/4.



I agree with the dan on this one. There will be nothing you cannot do with the 3/4. You can hang whole trees like the one in your vid with no worries with that rope. I have 2 3/4" bull lines and a 200' 5/8. I do about 95% of my work with the 5/8 now but love having my 3/4 bull lines for the really big stuff and yes, sometimes I need two. Sometimes I need all three.

Spikes are a personal matter. Every climber's physic is different and everyone will have their favorite that is most comfortable to them. I bet 90% of the climbers out there prefer the ones that were issued to them when they went to work for whatever service hired them in the beginning. I climbed on offset Klien's for the longest, got used to them and though they were comfortable in the beginning. I've got a set of Buckingham tree gaffs that I abhor. I only use them when I have to on thick furrow barked trees. My favorites are my aluminum Bashlins with the Velcro wraps and pole gaffs. I can climb in them all day without really even noticing them. No need to look for any others.


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## bootboy (Mar 16, 2012)

treemandan said:


> That's what I meant: if you just tried to cut from the bottom it would have stood back up and went for a deck or something.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with the 5/8 rope, just go for 3/4.



I had already cut it off the stump. There was no way it was going to stand up. I cut 20' off the bottom 2' at a time. Even if I had cut the bottom off till it was vertical, by the time it would want to go back the other direction, it would not have been tall enough to reach the deck.

I live in Utah and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. We don't exactly have the worlds biggest trees here. Our biggest deciduous trees are 100' cottonwoods and the occasional 100' sycamore. I just don't see myself needing the 3/4 line. Plus they are considerably more spendy than 5/8 or even 9/16. My 1/2" cwc serves me very well. I just want something more substantial.

I'm going to look into the climbrights with the climbright branded metal pads. $275 and I hear good things. I'm always one to fiddle with things (within reason) to make it work well for me I have a roll of rubber cork that I can use to customize padding to fit my legs. Cheers.


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## bootboy (Mar 16, 2012)

Robert65 said:


> As a side note, how much does one charge for a job like this? Alone, standing upright, the tree would be at least $1500. How much does the hazardous removal change things?



Try a different forum


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 16, 2012)

bootboy said:


> Try a different forum



Yeah, no doubt. I keep deleting these fools, but they are like rabbits. Keep reproducing


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## no tree to big (Mar 17, 2012)

bootboy said:


> I had already cut it off the stump. There was no way it was going to stand up. I cut 20' off the bottom 2' at a time. Even if I had cut the bottom off till it was vertical, by the time it would want to go back the other direction, it would not have been tall enough to reach the deck.
> 
> I live in Utah and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. We don't exactly have the worlds biggest trees here. Our biggest deciduous trees are 100' cottonwoods and the occasional 100' sycamore. I just don't see myself needing the 3/4 line. Plus they are considerably more spendy than 5/8 or even 9/16. My 1/2" cwc serves me very well. I just want something more substantial.
> 
> I'm going to look into the climbrights with the climbright branded metal pads. $275 and I hear good things. I'm always one to fiddle with things (within reason) to make it work well for me I have a roll of rubber cork that I can use to customize padding to fit my legs. Cheers.



a tree does not need to be tall to need a 3/4" bull rope. its all about the size of the wood... :wink: and when your blocking down a spar its nice being able to take BIG chunks off instead of whittling 

and whats a friction saver???? I think I might have seen one once in one of the trucks way in the back of the tool box right under the fall arrest harness for the bucket:monkey:


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## arborjockey (Mar 17, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Wow! You are mean! :msp_ohmy:, I have been biting my tongue for month's! :msp_w00t: I am now a Lurker and some times chime in. BTW, you should not TUI!
> Just saying.
> Jeff :msp_tongue:



Thanks for just using the word "mean" lots more u could of said. Yeah I was a little saucey. But I'm a lifer and in this business theirs no room for shortimers. Especially ones that may be going to nursing school. I think this thread has been milked. The tree was miner. Get back to us when you blast that big SOB. I do think srt is retarded.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 17, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> Thanks for just using the word "mean" lots more u could of said. Yeah I was a little saucey.



I am the AS nice guy.
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 18, 2012)

Man I hope I never have to remove anything like those cottonwoods , I think I would just the HO the deck is closed forever and never look out the window on that side of the house and give me 200.00 for the advice cash we don't take checks :hmm3grin2orange:


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## bootboy (Mar 18, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> Thanks for just using the word "mean" lots more u could of said. Yeah I was a little saucey. But I'm a lifer and in this business theirs no room for shortimers. Especially ones that may be going to nursing school. I think this thread has been milked. The tree was miner. Get back to us when you blast that big SOB. I do think srt is retarded.



I plan on doing this on a part time basis for as long as I'm able. Part-timer? Yes. Short-timer? No.
Once I'm done with school, I'll have a steady, well paying, relatively safe, and secure job working 3 days a week. I plan to be able to take on a few tree jobs in the summer and fall to keep me sane and bring in a little extra cash. Then, during the winter months I ski patrol part time, which also keeps me sane and gets me a season pass. I'm no monday-Friday, 9-5, bend-over-for-the-man in a cubicle kind of guy.

I figure with trees I can take on as little or as much work as I like.


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## Customcuts (Mar 30, 2012)

bootboy said:


> Thanks for your remarks. This is definitely one of the biggest and most methodical of the trees I've done. I just tried to take my time, and small bites. Better to have to make a few extra cuts and small pieces than bite off too much and risk injury. Certainly good lessons learned on this one.
> 
> Several of these trees will be coming out all together plus a few busted top pines. This yard will be a good cash cow for me this summer. The red house is my grandparents neighbor's and my gparents house is the one closer to the mountains. Neither one is in a huge hurry to get these done so I'll be able to get them done at my convenience over the summer. When work elsewhere slows down I can put in some days here. I just need some cheap bodies to haul rounds to my trailer.
> 
> I'm going to need a MUCH bigger saw for the main trunks though. The biggest of the condemned trees (the one I'm climbing) is over 40" at it's base Woof. I'll consider it an investment. I'm hoping to net $3,000 by the end of it.



that's the best work there is, when things slow down u got more work waiting. Check out the stihl 660 with a 36g bar. Beast! Thanks for sharing man I made a lowering device that I can run 2 lines thru simultaneously to get huge pieces down The "BIG WOOD CHUCKER" - YouTube


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