# rec climbing saddle



## rb_in_va (Jan 11, 2005)

I am looking to get a saddle soon and wanted to ask the wise folks at AS what they recommend. It would be primarily for recreation climbing, and I don't want to break the bank as it's only for a hobby right now. I have a climber friend that could show me the ropes. Thanks for your help, Roger.


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## Jumper (Jan 11, 2005)

Maybe someone here has a used but serviceable saddle that might fit the bill?
What is your size?


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## Redbull (Jan 11, 2005)

I use a New Tribe saddle for work and rec. I have to say this is the most cumfy and lightweight saddle I've used. It's also very affordable.


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## Burnham (Jan 11, 2005)

Ditto what Redbull says.


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## OutOnaLimb (Jan 11, 2005)

I get enough climbing during the week, no need for me to be rec climbing, But the Ness saddle, or Navario should fit the bill. If ya wanna talk about shootin, then thats another story.

Kenn


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## Tree Machine (Jan 11, 2005)

*Great gear is always worth it*

If it's just for recreation, just use a rock climbing harness.

Here's a couple pics of 'industrial-duty rock-harnesses' crossing over into the aerial needs of our own. Petzl did a real nice job with these saddles.

A quantum leap better (in performance, versatility and comfort) would be one of these hybrid saddles, like the Petzl Navaho Miniboss And Navario (as I've recently heard it called). Beyond that are Pro-Model workhorses of many, many different colors.


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## Burnham (Jan 11, 2005)

TM, I'd have to disagree about the rock climbing harness. The design criteria are completely different, as the rock climbing ethos makes hanging in the saddle on rope something not to be done, and tree climbing goes the opposite way. Most of them are just are not very comfortable. And no side D's. Long ago I began tree climbing in a series of rock climbing harnesses...let me tell you, a good saddle beats them all to heck, and my Ness is da bomb!
But you won't fall out of the tree, and they are quite a bit cheaper, and are very light. So not all is baaaad  .


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## wct4life (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm a big fan of the old school. Bowline-on-a-bight!  Safest set-up out there. If it's to snug, just add a 2x4 for comfort.


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## OutOnaLimb (Jan 11, 2005)

I agree, the rock climbing saddles kinda suck for trees, can you say "huevos cruncheros"

Kenn


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## Tree Machine (Jan 11, 2005)

For certain I am in agreement with you guys. Getting something substantial, like the NAVARIO, would allow you to use it rock-climbing, or vertical caving or really any aerial matter would be covered by the two examples from Petzl.

On the other hand, I would not really want to climb rock with my tree harness, nor would I wanna bounce a pit, traverse a glacier or ascend a barn, a bridge a silo or a building in my in my tree saddle. I think the VARIO would travel, pack, and go on vacation better than my tree harness. One of these crossover saddles could also be counted on in a rescue scenario.

I don't have a VARIO or a MINIBOSS, but I'm sorta talkin my own self into one  .


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## P_woozel (Jan 11, 2005)

OutOnaLimb said:


> I agree, the rock climbing saddles kinda suck for trees, can you say "huevos cruncheros"
> 
> Kenn


I've worn the Yates wall harness in trees while working with another climber, it was quite comfortable actually, just not appropriate for saws etc. But for rec climbing that would be fine if a guy had a cush harness like that already.


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## Stumper (Jan 11, 2005)

rumination said:


> As has been stated already, you can't go wrong with a Ness/New Tribe saddle for comfort, practicality, and price.



Uh huh.


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## NickfromWI (Jan 11, 2005)

If cost is a big concern, do go with a rock saddle. I started with that and it worked fine. Not great, but fine. No side dees, no cushy leg straps, no quick-adjust buckles, but it got me up and down safely.

One of two things will happen- you'll think you don't like tree climbing (hopefully not a result of using a sub-par saddle!) then you won't be bummed because you're only out 40 bucks for the harness you got, orrrrrr you'll like climbing a lot, hence you'll climb a lot, then feel the discomfort of the rock harness you'll quickly say, "hey, I gotta get me a nicer saddle. I better get on the phone with new tribe!"

It can be done, you won't die. You just might not like it all that much.

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2005)

Let's not forget a good 'ole Weaver saddle. It's about the cheapest good saddle out there!


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## rb_in_va (Jan 12, 2005)

Jumper said:


> Maybe someone here has a used but serviceable saddle that might fit the bill?
> What is your size?



I'm a 38 and shrinking right now.  If anyone has any decent gear in my size feel free to PM me. The New Tribe stuff looks good, and reasonably priced too. Same for the Petzel saddles in the Sherrils catalog. I'm just not sure I want to get the starter set they have. I've seen lots of gear on ebay, but it seems you can get new stuff for just a few bucks more that hasn't been beat on. Thanks for all your input guys.


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## BranchWalker74 (Jan 12, 2005)

I have been thinking of the new tribe smoke jumper. I allready have the Versitile. It is super confortable, but kinda heavy for rec. climbing. The smoke jumper looks comfortable, and light weight.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2005)

A No-frills Weaver will get you into the tree, and carrying a saw. But to truly appreciate the abilities you innately have, your saddle should allow you the versatility to go beyond yourself.

I climb on a Buckingham Versatile, really like that saddle.

The saddle, regardless of make or manufacturer are not any more expensive from one another <i>in the real sense</i>. Given a saddle's longevity (could last a lifetime), once you spend the money, you never think about it again. All you think about is what this saddle will allow you to do, and what the benefit is to <u>you</u> as a climber, and how comfortable it is to you. That is all that becomes real.


For my next saddle I was going to go with Stumper's choice, a Butterfly. 

But now you guys got me thinkin......


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## jason j ladue (Jan 12, 2005)

RBinVA,get a tree saddle. TM is right buckingham seems like quality gear too. im w/MB,though weaver is good stuff. and reasonably priced.when ever i climb i take all of the things in the pic w/me. all of these things are irreplaceable when im in the tree. get 150' of "the fly". learn the blakes hitch, the follow-through fig.8 (safety knot) and the bowline. all very easy. one more thing. dont use any thing but a solid,grade-10 steel biner for your lifeline. i know it sounds silly to some, but aluminum can develop hairline fractures.


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## Burnham (Jan 12, 2005)

Old wife's tale, Jason, and you haven't been married long enough to have an old wife  . 
Anyway, what's a grade 10 biner? I am not familiar with that designation.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 12, 2005)

burnham, i worked for a "well-established treeservice" for the first couple years of my (commercial) tree-climbing career. this old wives tale was something i heard from the owner of that co. he insisted that aluminum clips, especially when smacked against something like steel or cement (who knows how/why something like that would ever happen) or after much heavy use over time, could develop cracks. he had these x-rays that showed it. he may have been full of hot air, but i just feel more comfy w/a solid steel clip. have always used one. im not sure if "grade10" is an actual/accurate designation for a certain type of steel/clip. its just the referecne ive picked up some where. is any of this sounding like anything other than baloney? i use aluminumones too, but not by themselves... :angel:


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2005)

> im not sure if "grade10" is an actual/accurate designation for a certain type of steel/clip. its just the referecne ive picked up some where.



You're cool, I know what you mean; Slang for 'Bombproof Steel Triple Lock, 40 or 50 kN'
It's your link between the sliding D and your lifeline. I don't use an aluminum one up front either.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2005)

*Kweshhinn*

p.s. Why is your microcender off of your steel-core flipline?


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## jason j ladue (Jan 12, 2005)

???? you guys dont miss nothin. its brand new .aint used it yet. a better question would be why is the flipline not hooked to my belt...usually that would never be.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2005)

A better question yet would be <i>how</i> will you attach the thimbled end of the steel-core flipline to your saddle, and to which side, and why? There's a few ways to skin this cat.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 12, 2005)

is that supposed to hook to the saddle? ive always just let it dangle. clip to the side d-ring (on the left, and adjust w/my right) and run the rest of the line through the ascender. how would you skin it? i probly just made my self sound like an idiot, but oh well


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2005)

*Good, basic questions*

You're OK, Jason

Use a steel screw-link (Maillon Rapide), which are rated. I like the Demi Rond, and am using it currently. Before that, I used the Delta which worked really well for me, and I'll probably go back to that some day. This is not a good place to use a caribiner

Use the Maillon to attach your <i>right side</i> D-ring to the thimble on your steel core flipline. This is permanent. You'll be adjusting with your left hand. Right side gets busy with chainsaws, slings, etc.

On your left-side D-ring will clip the Snap if you're fully extended, or the micrograb for adjustment.

While ascending your rope, your flipline should go around your mids twice, counterclockwise. If you're not too fat, you should be able to clip the snap to your left-side D and it'll be out of your way for active climbing.

Letting the flipline just hang gives the chainsaw the opportunity to contact the flipline (not good), as well as getting in the way of what your feet are doing. 

You say you are clipping the snap to the D on your left, and using the ascender on the thimbled end for adjustment on your right? Technically, that'll work, but ascenders are not recommended for steel core fliplines, and they're not easily adjusted with one hand, like the micrograb is. You're so close, only a screw-link away! You can definitely streamline the system. Stay safe.


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## glens (Jan 12, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> A No-frills Weaver will get you into the tree, and carrying a saw


Next time we get together you'll have to show me what I'm doing wrong.&nbsp; As it stands, <i>I</i> have to get my <i>no-frills Weaver</i> into the tree...

Glen


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2005)

glens said:


> Next time we get together you'll have to show me what I'm doing wrong. Glen



Come test the 11 mm lines with me.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

TM, what's that green line?


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## Tree Machine (Jan 13, 2005)

Velocity, by Sampson.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

hmm, interesting. 16 strand? new? i dont recognize it...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 13, 2005)

11 mm semi-static kermantle. It's been out since October. You can buy it with a spliced eye.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

nice!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 13, 2005)

Getting back to your saddle, and the attachment of the flipline thimble to the right side D-ring, wouldn't it be nice if they made wirecore fliplines with safety snaps on <i>both</i> ends?


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

i want it


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## Tree Machine (Jan 13, 2005)

Nahhh, the one you've got is fine. The delta link is around six bucks.

Forgot to mention the Velocity is a 24-strand rope. Excellent rope, but it's dead last amongst the group above.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

why last? last how? which is your favorite?


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## geofore (Jan 13, 2005)

*asking questions*



jason j ladue said:


> is that supposed to hook to the saddle? ive always just let it dangle. clip to the side d-ring (on the left, and adjust w/my right) and run the rest of the line through the ascender. how would you skin it? i probly just made my self sound like an idiot, but oh well


Asking qustions has the exact opposite effect, an idiot would not know enough to ask. An intelligent person would realize he doesn't know all there is to know and smart enough to ask the questions. While on a personal level it may feel intimdating asking/exposing your level of knowledge to peers for review. Which would hurt more, a bruise on your ego (temporary thing) or falling out of a tree (permanant scars/death)? The fear of looking/feeling stupid is all in your mind, not asking when you don't know is stupid. The question is not stupid. Ask the questions if you want to look intelligent. It shows you are brave enough to admit know you don't know all there is to know and smart enough to ask. Asking the questions says you value your life, have balls enough to not be intimidated by others (thick skin) and want to learn more aka a show of intelligence/brainpower.


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## rb_in_va (Jan 13, 2005)

Great post geo! At first I was thinking of PM members here (because in the past newbie climbers have gotten slammed), but then thought why not just start a new thread? I'd rather get the most opinions possible. It's not like I'm talking about doing takedowns or anything.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 13, 2005)

*Thanks, Geo*

Yea, what Geo said. You just go ahead and ask any question you want.

(but sorta kinda try to stay on-topic).


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

thanks for all the positive input guys. we're all here for eachother.im never scared to ask questions. any one who attacks a guy for having natural curiosity (and the ability to set his ego asidefor a sec) -sucks!.. but i digress. back to the topic at hand: should i let it dangle or hook it to something? keep it rolling boys and girls. good thread


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## Burnham (Jan 13, 2005)

Most of the time I let my cable core with Macrograb adjuster dangle, and I never wrap it around me. If it's in the way, I make a small diameter coil and twist the tail through the loops a couple of times, then clip the eye to my harness with a biner.


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## kevintree (Jan 13, 2005)

GEO

BEST answer I have seen for someone hesitant to ask a question


So good if you don't mine I am making it the leading paragraph on our employee manuel

with credit to you of course.

TIA

Kevin


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 13, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> Any one who attacks a guy for having natural curiosity (and the ability to set his ego asidefor a sec) -sucks!



Meh, I think those getting attacked days are over.

Knock on wood... :alien:


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## jason j ladue (Jan 13, 2005)

good call butch. theres no room for it


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## NickfromWI (Jan 13, 2005)

Where is rocky?


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 13, 2005)

Chillin, I imagine.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

*Youz guyz....*



Tree Machine said:


> (but sorta kinda try to stay on-topic).


  

Do you let it dangle when you're on the ground? I mean, a part of tree work involves having your saddle on <i>while you're on the ground</i> (occasionally when driving  ). What I really mean is, you don't automatically take off your saddle as soon as you hit the ground

.... as a climber, you're in your saddle a lot, sometimes all day.

On the ground you can't really let your flipline dangle--- what do you do with it?

The options are limited, but assuming a couple things up front, like it is a steel-core flipline with a micrograb adjuster and a Swivel snap termination. Also that the flipline is 8' (2.54 M)

(which, by the way is the rig you have)

I coincidentally work-position on this system identically, and although there's been a lot of gear and saddle changes over the years, one constant that's evolved fully for me personally is the use of the 8-foot wirecore-micrograb (with a triple lock aluminum caribiner (held captive) ), linked with a screwlink (delta). 
I think you'll like the system very much. Very, very trustworthy and relatively bombproof and the delta makes it even more versatile. 

<b>Good for you</b> starting out with the simplest, most boiled-down, easy to use rig out there. One handed adjustment (left hand and forefinger) consistent, dependable, exact, precise control of the flipline, every time, wet or dry, hot or cold. It doesn't matter -this setup performs with the utmost consistency, giving you the confidence to go where only squirrels go.

The one-handed part is the most important. Uhhhh, I forgot what I was gonna tell you


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

Oh!, that the flipline, flipping around you twice counterclockwise, clip to left side; that should take under two seconds.

This is one of those finessy parts of being a treeguy that has NOTHING to do with a tree. Let me just try to describe it. It would be so much easier to show you in a video. The video could be as short as two seconds.

OK, the thimble end of the wirecore is linked with a Maillon of some shape coming off your right-hand D. You set your micrograb to within half a cubit of the swivel snap at the far end and drop the rig on the ground to your right side. (and <u>all</u> this next part is all at once, OK?) step left, and with the flipline in your right hand (fully extended arm) arc the flipline from right to left. Once that flipline has begun it's travel, pivot just a tad <i>clockwise</i>, opposing the direction of the travel of the flipline. This took one second.

As the flipline goes the first time around your back, dip with your legs, downward, just a bump, and continue a rightward pivot; a hula-hoopish feel. As the flipline goes around and gets shorter, it picks up speed. Your turning to the right accelerates the already accelerating snap until it goes WHAck !somewhere around your left hip. Grab it on the rebound and SNAP! Two seconds.



I have a 32" waist (81 cm) and the 8-foot flipline goes around my midsection dead-on perfect. If your wasitline is much bigger, it IS possible to special-order a steel-core flipline that is a hand or two over 8 feet. For John Paul Sanborn to do this, the flipline has to be around 11 feet.


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## Burnham (Jan 14, 2005)

Tree Machine, your system looks/sounds good. It would be a different ball game for me because I use a cable core lanyard that is twice as long as yours, due to the large diameters in my work. Often enough I am loaded up with two of these! As to your question about dangles on the ground, etc., I agree that often I wear my saddle on the ground, and yes, even drive with it on, but my practice is to just remove the lanyard(s) from my harness, coil it up and stick it in my gear pack. This takes longer than 2 seconds  . More like 15. I hope that doesn't automatically make me one of those totally slack, time-wasting gov't. employees foraging at the tax payer funded gravy trough  .


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

*Ahh, I get it.*



Burnham said:


> my practice is to just remove the lanyard(s) from my harness, coil it up and stick it in my gear pack. This takes longer than 2 seconds  .  .



Which totally drives the nail that says "Dual-ended swivel snap wirecore lanyards. Secure, EZ on EZ off. Allows you to use the lanyard enirely on the right side, OR the left. Gives work postioning that extra UMphhh of versatility and options.

Options are good.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 14, 2005)

tm, first off, that flipline is18'. i know-way too long to be practcal in most aplications. but i got a screamin' deal on it. treetools was clearing them out-$45! probly could have payed for mine and then some by buying the others they had and putting them for sale on line.they had mis-ordered. 
so any way...if i come down w/ the intention of going back up again somtimes ill just leave it clipped to my climb line. often though ill just coil up the exrta and fasten it to the hind loop of my saddle w/a little split tail line that i usually have there for "just in case". it happens to hang there pretty natural/comfy. i also am a skinny guy 32" waist not a drop of fat on me-for whatever thats worth. 
i use that flipline in rather unorthodox fashion sometimes though. i like to use it for keeping myself in position while making (awkward) cuts, or while moving my climb point. its suprising how much time gets wasted tying and untying knots. nice to just clip and go. i have a simple positioning lanyard/strap too, but the steel core is much more versatile. that extra weight/steel cable makes it alot easier to flip that buckle around the trunk...it is less likely to get caught up in the ivy or one of those little twigs thats always on the back side of the stem you're trying to fasten to. besides that there is the bullet proof factor of having a steel cable holding you there. peace of mind like that is invaluable. when you're 70' up and tring to focus on the task hand the last thing you want to be thinking about is whether or not you are being held securely in place. and, as ive said before, image is every thing. this is a serious piece of machinery. when someone sees you walk up to the tree and whip that sexy beast out, throw it around the tree-clink, and take off skyward, they know  they are watching a pro in action. its like walking into the bank and the guard all in uniform topped off w/a 10mil. glock on his belt. you know hes serious w/out even knowing which end of the gun the bullet comes out of. proffessionalism is easy to spot...

oh! you know what i forgot to include in that photo of the things i always climb W/ (and im kind of suprised no one called me on it)...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

Dual handle ascenders and the backup hitch (eye-eye tress cord)


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## jason j ladue (Jan 14, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Dual handle ascenders and the backup hitch (eye-eye tress cord)


 whats those? show me


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

Oops, I wrote that before looking at your picture. Yes, helmet,; a must.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

*Dual handle ascenders*



jason j ladue said:


> whats those? show me



Those is those things that mark your place in the near-empty classroom of new school climbing; simpler, but incorporating metal pieces, devices and 11 mm rope with spliced eyes.

Here's a discussion on the duals, with LOTS of progress in evolving the safe use thereof Check it out here.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 14, 2005)

cool. ive seen em before but never used em/didnt know what they were called. 
theres already a thread for it, but hows that "fly" treatin ya?


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

*New England's FLY*

I used the fly for about a year and a half. It was my first 11 mm arborist rope, a little less dynamic than a rock climbing rope, but other than it comes with one end spliced, it for all practical purposes, IS a rock climbing rope.

I retired it after a puff grew to too much to handle, and then I diced it up. My 11 year old nephew is climbing on the biggest remaining intact piece, a Christmas present from Uncle Tree Machine, and the rest I've morphed them into shorter accessory lines. 

Is that what you wanted to know?


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## jason j ladue (Jan 14, 2005)

yeah. im using a piece of that stuff right now, but i replace my lifeline every year. just out of my own, wierd general principle. wondering if i should switch, and what to go to next...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

Depends how much of a gear geek you are. Any arborist rope out there will get you in a tree.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2005)

*Wicked long fliplines*

Burnham and Jason J. Ladude, you guys are both using REAL long fliplines, which stands to reason, being that you live in big tree country. Long fliplines (and spikes) have been the norm with tree climbers out in your parts for at least the last 4.3 billion years. Recently, however, this thing was invented called the BigShot. Those that have gotten onboard that train no longer use spikes, and if you're not spiking, then you don't need an 18-foot (5.5 M !) flipline to go around that trunk. You're not going up the trunk, you're going up the rope. Welcome, again, to new school.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 17, 2005)

Getting back to your original question, what kind of saddle to buy, there are obvious things like fit and comfort, esoteric things, like color, and then purely utilitary things like,

Leg straps or bosun seat
Sliding D strap or attachment points
Quick-connect buckles, or the clunky pieces of crap of yesteryear

Every climber has his preferences, that is, unless you're light on experience and don't have enough knowledge of the products to say "My preference is...."

We're here to spike your learning curve, and get you set up safe and proper.


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## jason j ladue (Jan 17, 2005)

tm, 
like i said it eas my initial intention to buy a 5.5 i just got such a dealon it , icouldnt pass it up. and as you point out there are some BIG ol trees around here. i am not the most experienced climber around, ill be the first to admit it. ive always been very humble in that respect. especially i am not very  comfortable working on a spar pole. sometimes im concerned that if i put any slack in my flipline while blocking out a (big) pole then the line will fall, and so then might i. im sure most of it is in my head but oh well- i am getting better. as i pointed out to you earlier in this thread, i somtimes use the flip line for things other than pole work i.e. a positioning strap. also, to ease my mind when i am droping blocks off a pole,i will wrap the line around the pole one time so if i should  kick out and theres no stubs or any thing else to catch me from sliding down the pole, the line will grab that pole and mot move at all. true it is a little harder to move the flip line at times, but it isnt going anywhere until i move it-it wont move by simlpy falling on it. see? and, most of all-*i dont use spikes to prune a tree*. i dont know what gave you the idea that i might. ya know i gotta say the posts you were directing at me up to this point have been positive and helpful in their tone. but this one feels a little more critical- more like an attack or a challenge. as you yourself point out, there are some huge freakin trees around here. more so certainly than what i ever saw in indiana- so cool it would ya. lets keep the positive flow going. :angel:


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## Tree Machine (Jan 17, 2005)

I'm not coming from a critical stance. If you want critical, ya gotta talk to my wife.

Actually, I'm more in amazement than anything. I didn't know they made 18-foot long steel-cored fliplines. I like hearing about your systems. I wonder things like, if I were to climb a 200' tree, would I want to use an 18' flipline, and why? Not knockin you back for using one. I don't care, as long as you're climbing safe.

But what I'm sensing is the person or persons who taught you how to climb may not have had all the up-to-date knowledge of the current tree climbing gear. Our hundred and so year old system we arborists have been climbing on, has been passed on faithfully from treeguy to younger treeguy since treeguys started climbing trees. That's where I referenced the <b>spikes</b>, wasn't about you. We've just come to a place in history where the old is merging with the new. 13 mm meets 11 mm. Friction hitches meet friction devices. They're all good, just some things have advantages over others and it's nice to know what's what. Better control of friction means full-on confidence. Faster safer and easier in our business means more money. That's where I'm coming from  I want you to make more money.

I hear you say


> its suprising how much time gets wasted tying and untying knots.


 and I'm sayin, YES!!! This guy's got potential.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 17, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> when someone sees you walk up to the tree and whip that sexy beast out, throw it around the tree-clink, and take off skyward, they know they are watching a pro in action.



I'm curious how you ascend. You whip the sexy thing out, and with poised and confident professionalism, you head skyward. I can dig that. You don't use spikes. What do you do?


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## jason j ladue (Jan 18, 2005)

on removals, for sure i whip that sexy thing out. if you really wanna see it, ill send you a video . i guess i could post  part of it, but im not really sure how to do that. it was originally recorded on vhs. then transfered to dvd. *yes, i do use spikes*. but only where appropriate . i really do appreciate your observation though. it seems quite astute. i was  taught by an old guy (65) from Tenn. he had been climbing since age 19. he always  wanted to climb w/spikes. but the owner of the company where we were employed would have nothing of it (except for on removals), as he is dyed-in-the-wool isa certified for the last 12 years or so. i know what a big shot is. i just dont own one. wish i did. i know how to climb/do tree work w/out spikes. 
sorry if i was being defensive/ misunderstood you


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## Redbug (Jan 18, 2005)

Hello Guys, I've been following this thread with some interest too, and am a newby. I am still a little confused about the setup using the steel core flipline. On the right dee we have a steel screwlink attached to the thimble end of the wirecore line. Going around the tree, then we have a microascender. Attached to the microascender is a locking twist clevis which goes to your left D. The wirecore goes through the microascender, with the the swivel snap on the end. The thing I don't understand...what do you do when you climb up to a limb you don't want to cut, or something you can't flip the line over. You have to unhook the flipline somehow...the screw link and twist clevis are semi-permanent. You do not want to take the ascender apart. Do you use a carbiner on the left dee to connect to the twist clevis? If so, why even use the twist clevis at all? Just connect the biner directly to the microascender. I noticed the Sherrill sells the twist clevis on their flipline combos...

Dave


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## Tree Machine (Jan 18, 2005)

Redbug said:


> Attached to the microascender is a locking twist clevis which goes to your left D. Dave



That's where they (whomever) got you confused. You are sharper than a razor's edge noting that the stainless steel twist clevis is wholly unnecessary and could complicate matters (I'll explain in a moment).

Checking the catalog........ Yep, you're right. Here it is.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 18, 2005)

*Subtle, yet important difference*

Also, they have a microcender on the line instead of a micrograb. Here's the difference between the two.


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## Redbug (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi there TM and the group...Looking at the microcender and micrograb...to me, they are pretty much the same if they both have the bolt and locknut installed. The micrograb looks a little more streamlined, without all the added metal sticking out for the removable pin. For safety reasons, why would someone NOT use the bolt with locknut setup on their grab? I assume a carabiner will fit through the connector hole of the microcender or micrograb? The reason I ask...I am thinking about ordering the wirecore flipline or combo. As background...I do a little tower climbing with my work, and get recertified every couple years. Tree work and climbing is a completely different beast and and really looks fun and presents a new challenge.


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## Burnham (Jan 18, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Burnham and Jason J. Ladude, you guys are both using REAL long fliplines, which stands to reason, being that you live in big tree country. Long fliplines (and spikes) have been the norm with tree climbers out in your parts for at least the last 4.3 billion years. Recently, however, this thing was invented called the BigShot. Those that have gotten onboard that train no longer use spikes, and if you're not spiking, then you don't need an 18-foot (5.5 M !) flipline to go around that trunk. You're not going up the trunk, you're going up the rope. Welcome, again, to new school.



TM, I do possess and use a Big Shot, and climb with ascenders on 11mm static line. I am competent with several versions of both SRT and DdRT, stacking Swedish tree ladders, Swiss tree grippers, and spurs. There are so many different tasks that I am asked to perform in trees that having all the tools is required. Perhaps you haven't caught that I am not an arborist. I work for the USFS and much of my work aloft is associated with wildlife habitat enhancement projects where, believe it or not, the purpose is to create damage to the tree; topping and girdling to create snags, inoculations with rot fungi to create cavities, things like that. The collateral damage of gaffing the tree is not considered a negative by the biologists who write the treatment prescriptions I perform. On the other hand, I do work in trees where the damage from spur use is not acceptable; hazard pruning in campgrounds and administrative sites, old growth dependent species surveys, select parent scion and cone collections. 
Remember, I am not working in an environment where individual trees have significant value, as is the case in the urban/suburban world. My work is with stands of trees, groups of stands, watersheds totaling over 1.5 million acres on the national forest where I serve. There are on average perhaps 225-250 trees per acre; that's some 350 million trees, and 60% of those are mature or older. Hundreds die from natural forces every day. I could not kill enough of them with my spurs to be measurable if I tried. And while I have no desire to quibble about it, I have seen precious little evidence of spur damage, as it affects growth and survival, to many of the conifer species I work with: Douglas fir, Noble fir, Western hemlock, Western red cedar, Ponderosa pine. That's the measure of significant damage in my work environment. Also remember that while the urban/suburban tree is most often an open grown one, that is seldom the case for me. Second growth Douglas fir are one of the stand types where alot of my work is carried out. These stands are characterized by fairly dense crowns that touch those of adjacent trees. The live limbs will begin at 50+ feet off the ground, and there may be 25 or more feet of dead limbs below that. Live limb diameters will seldom reach 2 inches. Setting lines on safe tie in points by throwbag or Big Shot in these conditions is not often feasible. We have to recognize that I play a different game than you, so different rules apply. In your work environment, your rules are totally correct, and when I work there, I follow them.
Long lanyards, both cable core and rope, offer many options for deployment beyond just reaching around a 6' bole. If that's the only thing you are doing with yours, then you need to get on the new school train yourself. More than a few advanced climbers posting here have spoken of their use of longer lanyards. I much prefer to carry one that is often too long than one that leaves me short on occasion.


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## glens (Jan 18, 2005)

Redbug said:


> On the right dee we have a steel screwlink attached to the thimble end of the wirecore line. Going around the tree, then we have a microascender. Attached to the microascender is a locking twist clevis which goes to your left D. The wirecore goes through the microascender, with the the swivel snap on the end. The thing I don't understand...what do you do when you climb up to a limb you don't want to cut, or something you can't flip the line over. You have to unhook the flipline somehow...the screw link and twist clevis are semi-permanent.


Why not swap ends of the flipline and use the swivel snap on the right, leaving the thimble end dangling out of the grab on the left, and do away with the screwlink or use it to affix the thimble end somewhere on the left as a failsafe (creating a junk-snagging loop)?&nbsp;


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## Burnham (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm with you, Glen. Redbug, the way you're doing it is bass-akwards  ...


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## jason j ladue (Jan 18, 2005)

good thread! welcome redbug.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 18, 2005)

Yea, the thimble dangling to the left side would allow you to 1) Stick a caribiner in it if you wanted to use that end and 2) the ability to remove your flipine from your saddle. OK then.

Burnham, thanks for taking the time to describe for us what you do. I think that's absolutely fascinating.

If you're spiking up ione of those massive suckers, do you think the point of the spike even reaches the cambium? The bark on those trees has to be pretty thick.


Microcender and micrograb ARE identical, except for the nut/bolt thing. The reason for the removable pin is that in other aerial disciplines this may be used as an ascender, like off a chest box in vertical caving. It can also be used in rigging scenarios, and sometimes you want to be able to affix and remove it midline. On a flipline, there's really no reason to ever have to remove it, so for added safety, a bolt replaces the spring pin. Often if you order a Micrograb, they'll send you a microcender and a nut and bolt.

I understand better the use of these long fliplines now. Thanks guys.


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## Redbug (Jan 19, 2005)

Glad to meet you guys. Thanks. I think Burnham has one of those jobs most of us wishes for...being in the right environment, (and I mean people in this instance), with a passion for what they do...that's what life is all about. You ain't working!

I know what to order, now. It will not be the flipline combo. I will order the thing with swivel snaps on both ends and a microcender. Talk to ya'll later, going hog hunting out in the woods. It's colddd down here this morning...in the middle teens!

Dave


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## Burnham (Jan 24, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> If you're spiking up ione of those massive suckers, do you think the point of the spike even reaches the cambium? The bark on those trees has to be pretty thick.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## NickfromWI (Jan 24, 2005)

Burnham said:


> Another trick to avoid that battle is to climb a younger, smaller tree nearby and transfer into the big boy once you get 75 or 100 feet off the ground. This is loads of fun  .



Heyyy, that's exactly what we did on my first redwood climb!

love
nick


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