# Shaver Improvement Forum



## ngzcaz

I think we need a new listing since the others were getting a bit long. Feel free to post old ideas since others may not have seen them.

This may be for other OWB as well. I cant believe no one is #####ing about the tar and junk literally flowing out the door when one opens it. Answer ? Well I hope its as simple as taking a piece of 1 inch ( your preference ) angle and either welding or drilling a couple of holes and fastening it to the bottom of the door opening ( not the door itself ) the junk should then drip/flow back in the boiler where it came from. You'll still have a bit from the door itself but the vast majority should be taken care of. Now all I need is a warm day to let the boiler die off so I can work on it.

Also, if others have trouble finding a shovel to fit the 4 inch opening to empty their ashes, try a kids snow shovel. They are almost flat and should do a decent job. Since most are made with plastic and wood, try it when there aren't too many red ashes on the bottom.


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## Windwalker7

*Tip*

Here's a tip. If you need to add more chemicals after your DHW coil is sealed up, add them through the steam vent/ overflow tube.

Put a piece of 1" pex over the pipe with the curve upward. Insert a funnel and pour in the chemicals. Give it a couple cups of water for a chaser.


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## ngzcaz

Thats a good tip. I had posted a while ago on the dumb way to add chemicals to these units. What a waste of caulk. I'm trying to use 2 layers of solarguard with a plate of steel on top to keep everything airtight. Cant see recaulking that unit. When spring hits I'll have to remove it and figure out a better way to seal that area.

 :agree2:


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## fletcher0780

Here's my contribution so far:

-Shaver steam fix:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462

-add insulation in roof area of boiler

-aquastat upgrade
I replaced the factory thermostat with a Ranco digital programmable boiler controller. You just need to make sure your well is in a good location. Another member said this about using his Ranco and its well:



hedgecutter said:


> I drilled a hole through the top of the water jacket approximately 14" in from the back and 4" in from the side. Next I cut a 12" piece of 1/4" copper tubing and soldered a cap on one end. Then I slid the copper tubing through the hole and flared the uncapped end so it would hang down into the water jacket. I sealed between the hole and flared tube end with some silicone to make a water resistant dry well to put the temp sensor into. It seems to work very well. The dry well is in the general vicinity of where the pump takes suction to send water to the house. I run my temp set point at 180F with a differential of 10 degrees. The Shaver does a very nice job heating my house and hot water.



here is the Ranco I used: http://www.iaqsource.com/product.php?p=ranco_etc-111000&product=110270

My next project is to modify my blower damper to operate like the natures comfort and Hardy OWB. They use a solenoid to cover and uncover the blower inlet when the fan is on/off. Here is a pic I borrowed from fellow member (derwood91, thanks for the pic):







originally I was going to redrill my blower flange, but after looking at my available space (pic below) I won't be able to do that because I don't want to mess with moving my electrical conduit











Now, I'm thinking of freeing up the pivot point of my damper and tacking an eye on to it, so I can pivot it open with the solenoid. I think I'll also need to add a bit of ballast or a return spring to pivot it back down when the solenoid shuts off. Does anyone have any other ideas how I could do this? 

My thoughts for doing this are to reduce recovery time in heating water by allowing full airflow, and reduce wood usage and potential for boil over by limiting draft when water temp is above set point. For those of you not familiar the shaver blower has a flap that pivots and they recommend leaving it 1/4 open for best results. It works well, but as you can tell, I'm always tinkering.


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## ngzcaz

Just a follow up on the kids flat snow shovel for ash removal. Tried it today. Thumbs up, definitely worth the 6 bucks rather than make one. And Fletch, I may have to try your water level/steam thingamabob. Lost a bit of water in one week.. although I think most went up the hot water coil pull out thinge. Lots of these words are spelled phonetically..


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## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Just a follow up on the kids flat snow shovel for ash removal. Tried it today. Thumbs up, definitely worth the 6 bucks rather than make one. And Fletch, I may have to try your water level/steam thingamabob. Lost a bit of water in one week.. although I think most went up the hot water coil pull out thinge. Lots of these words are spelled phonetically..



Did you seal the water coil cover with hi-temp silicone?


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## urhstry

Isn't that the fix that Ben said was taken care of on the "newer" models?


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## fletcher0780

urhstry said:


> Isn't that the fix that Ben said was taken care of on the "newer" models?



Isn't what the fix? Sealing the water coil cover?


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## ngzcaz

No, I didn't yet.. I presently have 2 sheets of solarguard on top and a steel plate compressing it. I really dislike the idea of having to waste a tube of caulk every time you access this area. I'm looking for a flexible 1/2 to 1 inch gasket type material ( kinda like the rope gasket around the wood stove doors ) that can be peeled on and off and be reused a couple of times. I don't like to keep bringing up the shortcomings of the make I happen to own, but this is another area that wasn't thought out very well. It doesn't even overlap the boiler that much and it seems the slide plate they have will warp over time. Could be wrong and I hope I am but I've seen this stuff before. Anyway, I'm surprised someone a lot smarter than me didn't offer an alternative way of sealing this area. And with over 2,000 views on Shaver related posts, Ben and his company would be well served by addressing issues his customers have.. Word of mouth means a lot around these neck of the woods. And ignoring it is even worse.. this is a decent product to begin with for the price and could be ooh so much better with very simple changes.. 

A guy had a gas station near where I live and his motto to his empolyees was simply this : be nice to our customers..without them we don't need you.


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## fletcher0780

Personally I wish the cover cold be bolted in place and form a good seal. I'm having problems with my water level being too high right now and seeping out the cover. This is due to to my sight rearward lean and my steam fix. I need to lift the rear of the boiler up about 3/4" to alleviate this problem. After that I'm going to seal the cover with another tube of silicone (I never plan on removing it again), add more insulation to the roof area, insulate the door, and mount my new modified blower.


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## david78

*heat exchanger*

I've had my Shaver 165 going about a month now with mixed results. Just did the steam fix yesterday, looks to be working good. After reading the posts here (great info!) I'm wondering if I have my heat exhanger plumbed backwards. The place I bought it from said to run the hot water in the top nipple and the return out the bottom. His reasoning is "it is most important that the nipple on the water to air heat exchanger that is closest to the fan is the cold water return to the outdoor wood furnace. the top nipple farthest away from the fan needs to be the hot water feed. this is improtant because as the cool air enters the air if hooked up this way then the bottom nipple will pre heat the air entering the water to air heat exchanger and as it exits the water to air heat exchanger the top nipple will super heat the air. if this is hooked up backwards the air entering the water to air heat exchanger will super heat the air and when it exits the water to air heat exchanger it will cool the air down." The guys on the site here say the opposite, hot in the bottom, cold out the top, which seems more logical to me. Anyone have the definitive answer? Thanks!


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## Dan-o

*heat exchanger*

I have mine hooked up with Hot on bottom and cold on top now.

That is b/c mine wouldn't flow when I had it hooked up cold bottom and hot on top b/c it had air in the line. Once I swapped the lines everything is fine. I have 120* heat coming out out of the register furthest away from my furnace.


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## Windwalker7

fletcher0780 said:


> Personally I wish the cover cold be bolted in place and form a good seal. I'm having problems with my water level being too high right now and seeping out the cover. This is due to to my sight rearward lean and my steam fix. I need to lift the rear of the boiler up about 3/4" to alleviate this problem. After that I'm going to seal the cover with another tube of silicone (I never plan on removing it again), add more insulation to the roof area, insulate the door, and mount my new modified blower.






I had a problem with water seeping out. I cut away at the back panel with a Dremel until I found that my leak was coming from the DHW cover plate.

It was leaking from the inside. I had to run a bead of high temp silicone across on the inside. If you look on page 42 of the owners manual, at the bottom picture, you can see the two seams. Make sure you seal both with high temp silicone.

What was happening was, as the water hot, it formed condensation on the DHW cover plate and the water would run down and come out between the inside seam. Hard to explain. Hope you guys understand. Sorta like having a pot of water heating on the stove covered with a lid. If you lift off the lid, there are water droplets all underneath it.

I called my dealer about the problem and he called Shaver. I was instructed to remove the back panel/siding to find the leak. I feared that the outlet pipe was the culprit. I didn't want to drain water, remove pump and remove the whole panel. So I just cut it out in sections and found the soaked insulation started getting wet clear up at the top.

I then cut through the silicone, removed the lid and sealed up those two seams.


I siliconed everything back up and so far no more puddles under the furnace.


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## fletcher0780

Windwalker7 said:


> I had a problem with water seeping out. I cut away at the back panel with a Dremel until I found that my leak was coming from the DHW cover plate.
> 
> It was leaking from the inside. I had to run a bead of high temp silicone across on the inside. If you look on page 42 of the owners manual, at the bottom picture, you can see the two seams. Make sure you seal both with high temp silicone.
> 
> What was happening was, as the water hot, it formed condensation on the DHW cover plate and the water would run down and come out between the inside seam. Hard to explain. Hope you guys understand. Sorta like having a pot of water heating on the stove covered with a lid. If you lift off the lid, there are water droplets all underneath it.
> 
> I called my dealer about the problem and he called Shaver. I was instructed to remove the back panel/siding to find the leak. I feared that the outlet pipe was the culprit. I didn't want to drain water, remove pump and remove the whole panel. So I just cut it out in sections and found the soaked insulation started getting wet clear up at the top.
> 
> I then cut through the silicone, removed the lid and sealed up those two seams.
> 
> 
> I siliconed everything back up and so far no more puddles under the furnace.



I don't see any pics on p.42 in my manual, But on p.37 I see two pics the top one is just the cover, the bottom is looking into the water tank. Is the seam your talking about just below the copper coil in the pic, and run horizontally?

I assumed mine was wet because of the elevated water level and rearward lean. Anyone know how much higher the cover is than the vent pipe? How close to the bottom of the cover is the water level when filled?

Where was your puddle? left side? My insulation is wet on both sides at the bottom, maybe I'll pull the cover off tomorrow.

Is this the pic? which seam is it?


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## ngzcaz

Well, I was hoping the one post was the exception rather than the rule but now I'm now so sure. If I understand this, should this be a warranty issue ? Was the seam faulty ? 

:jawdrop:


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## John D

Why is everyone adding solarguard to the tops of these? In the literature it is saying R58? for the tops. All I know is Im getting a little concerned because Shavers seem to have more stupid problems,and it seems like there are mods needed and they are more finicky than the rest of them combined.From what im reading they are well built units that are very rough around the edges,and need a lot of finishing off by the customers.Personally id rather pay a few hundred more,and not need to deal with this stuff,esp when Shaver has forced me to install it in December when its 20 degrees out,when i order it in early June.Its going to be enough for me to get this thing up and running,with the weather,and soft ground when its not frozen,the last thing ill want to deal with is having to partially take it apart to "fix" stuff on a brand new OWB.


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## Windwalker7

Yes Fletcher, That is the seam that needs siliconed. The one right below your red arrows.

For some reason that pic is on page 42 in my manual.

Mine leaked on the left side. It only leaked when water was hot.

That seam is well above the over flow tube.

What is happening is, that the hot water condenses on the DHW cover plate then drips down into that seam. Similar to if you were cooking something in a pot of water with a lid on the pot. 

That seam in the top of your picture is under the DHW cover plate and you can't see it with the cover plate in place. 

I don't believe it is an actual defect but they should be sealed with silicone or something right at the factory.

I sealed mine last week and it hasn't leaked anymore.

I wish I had known before I cut open that back panel. My dealer said he would get me a replacement and some more insulation.

If you are leaking, I'd try sealing that up. 

I was leaking about a cup to a cup and a half of water a day.


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## Windwalker7

david78 said:


> I've had my Shaver 165 going about a month now with mixed results. Just did the steam fix yesterday, looks to be working good. After reading the posts here (great info!) I'm wondering if I have my heat exhanger plumbed backwards. The place I bought it from said to run the hot water in the top nipple and the return out the bottom. His reasoning is "it is most important that the nipple on the water to air heat exchanger that is closest to the fan is the cold water return to the outdoor wood furnace. the top nipple farthest away from the fan needs to be the hot water feed. this is improtant because as the cool air enters the air if hooked up this way then the bottom nipple will pre heat the air entering the water to air heat exchanger and as it exits the water to air heat exchanger the top nipple will super heat the air. if this is hooked up backwards the air entering the water to air heat exchanger will super heat the air and when it exits the water to air heat exchanger it will cool the air down." The guys on the site here say the opposite, hot in the bottom, cold out the top, which seems more logical to me. Anyone have the definitive answer? Thanks!






Mine goes in the bottom and out the top. I was told this would push the air out better.


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## fletcher0780

I'll try this tomorrow and see what happens. I'll have to let the fire die down a bit so I don't get a steam bath  Thanks for the help, if this works you saved me a lot of trouble re-leveling my boiler.


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## Windwalker7

Just wanted to remind you to seal up on both sides too (vertically)


You'll see what i mean when you get the cover plate off.

I think your problem will be solved after you do this.

It drove me crazy for a couple weeks.


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## fletcher0780

Windwalker7 said:


> Just wanted to remind you to seal up on both sides too (vertically)
> 
> 
> You'll see what i mean when you get the cover plate off.
> 
> I think your problem will be solved after you do this.
> 
> It drove me crazy for a couple weeks.



cool, thanks.

I can see how important lots of insulation is now, I have some of my water jacket uncovered while trying to get this taken care of , and my blower has been running non-stop to keep up. Water temps get to about 165-170, but never to 180* with this 15* weather. I think once I get all my other projects finished I might pull off the siding and add 1-2" rigid foam insulation on top of the solar guard. I read about a guy who sprayed his with foam, but it costs too much ($400) and I want something removable. From the looks of it, I can pull off the sides, take a measurement, cut the foam, and stuff it in. I'll take my IR thermometer out and look for warm spots. Here is a guy who took the siding off his shaver:







Here it is with the spray foam:


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## ngzcaz

To John D.. well I have the Shaver 165 and its digesting everything I'm throwing at it. There are a lot of OWB's out there. Yes, the Shavers are rough around the edges and could benefit from a little more detail instead of sales hype. That being said, my advice would be if you can find a different brand for only a couple hundred more..buy it. I couldn't and price and pay back period was a definite area of concern. Its the little stupid stuff thats just frustrating as heck. Not costing a lot of money or time really.. just stuff the consumer shouldn't have to do. If my Dad was still alive he'd love this unit.. could never keep his hands off anything constantly working on stuff whether it needed it or not. 

As a sidenote, when I was having delivery issues, I ended up speaking with Billy Shaver, from what I understand the president of the company. Very easy to speak with, and even let me speak with the driver of the truck that was in route. And they were having problems with the trucks ( which should not be a concern for the customer. ) Never a problem with Billy, just the people that work for him.. However this latest round of verbal diatribe with customers still waiting would have me ( if I were president of Shaver ) sharpening my axe and leveling the chopping block.

 :greenchainsaw:


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## John D

ngzcaz said:


> To John D.. well I have the Shaver 165 and its digesting everything I'm throwing at it. There are a lot of OWB's out there. Yes, the Shavers are rough around the edges and could benefit from a little more detail instead of sales hype. That being said, my advice would be if you can find a different brand for only a couple hundred more..buy it. :


 
Thank you for the reply. From whats out there now,the only firebox that is built as thick,and beefy as a Shaver is the natures comfort. It is almost 1500 more than the Shaver,while i think its worth more, i dont think its worth almost 1500 more. Add to that NC hasnt been around long,Shaver has,I know any major issues have been dealt with at Shaver. Maybe the NC is fine,but they have been around 30+ yrs to refine the product.


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## ngzcaz

Well... I didn't know the Shaver had a coffee cup holder : - ) Certainly worth more now that I see its functionality.


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## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Well... I didn't know the Shaver had a coffee cup holder : - ) Certainly worth more now that I see its functionality.



it took me a minute to see what was going on there. Kinda neet to see the thing naked. The guy reported a significant drop in wood usage. Said his blower comes on less frequently now. Mines running almost 24/7


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## fletcher0780

Well, I pulled the cover off today and saw the water level was right at the bottom of the cover. I lowered the front of the boiler (now it has a slight front lean) and decided to just put the cover on with a trash bag over it until it warms up a bit next week so I can shut her down and reseal the cover. I think the water was up to that seam and leaked down inside, not to mention the steam didn't help much. Wish me luck, I wont be able to do anything with the cover until next week 15* tonight.


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## ngzcaz

If you don't freeze, I'm sure fellow Shaver owners would like a couple of pics to see what you are doing. Hopefully they ( me included ) wont have to do the same thing...

:censored:


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## John D

ngzcaz said:


> If you don't freeze, I'm sure fellow Shaver owners would like a couple of pics to see what you are doing. Hopefully they ( me included ) wont have to do the same thing...
> 
> :censored:



Yeah,me too! pics please!


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## woodfurnace

John D said:


> Thank you for the reply. From whats out there now,the only firebox that is built as thick,and beefy as a Shaver is the natures comfort. It is almost 1500 more than the Shaver,while i think its worth more, i dont think its worth almost 1500 more. Add to that NC hasnt been around long,Shaver has,I know any major issues have been dealt with at Shaver. Maybe the NC is fine,but they have been around 30+ yrs to refine the product.



BUT, you would think after 30 years they would of fixed all the problems wouldn't you???


Weldrite has been building trailers for years.


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## fletcher0780

woodfurnace said:


> BUT, you would think after 30 years they would of fixed all the problems wouldn't you???
> 
> 
> Weldrite has been building trailers for years.



well I don't need a trailer, just a boiler. I'll take some pics in the morning.


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## ngzcaz

Lately I've been throwing smaller junk wood ( pine, swamp pine half rotten stuff ) and found the water's been getting hotter than I'd like, 172 degrees with a thermostat setting of around 150. My draft door was about 1/3 open, I've now closed it to about 1/4 open. If I close it more than that, I'm concerned that should the fire need more draft, the almost closed damper door wont let it pull enough air into the fire. When I start burning the good stuff it will be interesting what settings I will have to use. The smaller stuff was about 6 to 8 inch stuff instead of the 10 to 12 inch wood I was using..

Anyone else only have the damper slide 1/4 open ( or less ) ??


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## urhstry

Ttt


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## fletcher0780

I resealed my domestic water cover and replaced the insulation that became soaked from running with the cover not sealed for a week. I put 2 layers of unfaced r30 up there with the solar guard on top. there is very little airspace above the tank now. I also sealed around the bottom of the unit with expand foam. My Ranco aquastat is now dead on due to the well I built from a 14" piece of 3/8 copper capped on one end and flared on the other. I drilled a hole in the water jacket from the top and dropped it in, then sealed the flared end with silicone and now life is good  today I'm going to mount my modified blower and solenoid. I should have a decent seal when the blower is off, and full air flow when its on. Probably won't make a huge difference on the real cold days, but when it's mild I won't have to mess with the flap or worry about boiling. My steam fix is still working well, and I believe there are at least 5 others using it, I haven't heard any negative effects other than a possible leak out the water coil cover if you raise the level too high, or have the boiler leaning back too much. I'll try to remember to take some pics today.

Another improvement I think would be nice is to insulate the two plates between the firebox door. What kind of material could withstand the heat?


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## fletcher0780

OK, I just finished installing my modified blower and solenoid, it seems to work well so far, but I had to create a limiting strap with a piece of string because the solenoid energizes with quite a snap, and from time to time would flip the cover up past vertical so it could not flop back down when needed. Here are my pictures:

ON:





OFF:





Full view:


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## berry5

what kind of price are we looking at just wondering? i did the mod on the level that is sweet that kicks butt i have a shaver 165 i love it


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## trshmn

*blower solenoid*



fletcher0780 said:


> OK, I just finished installing my modified blower and solenoid, it seems to work well so far, but I had to create a limiting strap with a piece of string because the solenoid energizes with quite a snap, and from time to time would flip the cover up past vertical so it could not flop back down when needed. Here are my pictures:
> 
> ON:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OFF:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full view:



fletcher, where did you get the solenoid, and how much? I would like to try that but don't know where to get the solenoid.
Thanks, trshmn


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## rx7145

trshmn said:


> fletcher, where did you get the solenoid, and how much? I would like to try that but don't know where to get the solenoid.
> Thanks, trshmn



Grainger: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4X240


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## fletcher0780

rx7145 said:


> Grainger: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4X240



I actually got it here: 
http://www.drillspot.com/products/42984/Dormeyer_2005-M-1_Laminated_Solenoid

grainger wanted me to set up an account, so I went with drillspot. This thing is way more solenoid than I need. It's very strong and the door is very light. It seems to work well so far.


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## urhstry

Not sure if this fits the topic but for those of you that do not know, Shaver now has a collar for the exhaust stack to add more pipe of a standard size. 

They also said they are making the "real" ash pans. 

1 week until delivery


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## fletcher0780

urhstry said:


> Not sure if this fits the topic but for those of you that do not know, Shaver now has a collar for the exhaust stack to add more pipe of a standard size.
> 
> They also said they are making the "real" ash pans.
> 
> 1 week until delivery



Thanks, I placed the order for mine 2 weeks ago, although I don't expect to see them until they get caught up with the outstanding orders.


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## ngzcaz

Its a funny thing. I was looking at a few OWB's and comparing the lack of creosote in my chimney ( 165 Shaver ) and the black mess coming out of others. And the higher the chimney the more the mess. 

I'd be real sure I'd need a higher chimney before I'd mess with mine.. the true " ash pan is another story.. "


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## trshmn

Windwalker7 said:


> Here's a tip. If you need to add more chemicals after your DHW coil is sealed up, add them through the steam vent/ overflow tube.
> 
> Put a piece of 1" pex over the pipe with the curve upward. Insert a funnel and pour in the chemicals. Give it a couple cups of water for a chaser.



I used your idea for Fletchers steam fix, I put a piece of 1" pex 6" long with the curved end up on the overflow tube, secured with a hose clamp, filled with water half way out, and does'nt overflow the DHW tank, now no more steam!!! But now if I have to add chemicals I guess I'll have to take it off a couple days before so it can steam and water level can go down. Better than resealing the DHW cover every time. Great ideas guys, keep them coming, Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## trshmn

fletcher0780 said:


> I actually got it here:
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/42984/Dormeyer_2005-M-1_Laminated_Solenoid
> 
> grainger wanted me to set up an account, so I went with drillspot. This thing is way more solenoid than I need. It's very strong and the door is very light. It seems to work well so far.



Ordered the solenoid yesterday, should be here mid week. On yours, when everything is up to temp and draft cover is closed do you still have smoke coming out the stack???? I closed mine all the way and waited 5-10 minutes and still had smoke coming out the stack, I thought that would kill all smoke if no air was getting to it??


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## projectsho89

trshmn said:


> Ordered the solenoid yesterday, should be here mid week. On yours, when everything is up to temp and draft cover is closed do you still have smoke coming out the stack???? I closed mine all the way and waited 5-10 minutes and still had smoke coming out the stack, I thought that would kill all smoke if no air was getting to it??



The only way you'll kill ALL smoke is if the fire goes completely out.

After 10-15 minutes, you should just see gentle smoldering smoke coming from the stack. The fire is still getting some air via the stack (small downdraft).

Steve


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## fletcher0780

projectsho89 said:


> The only way you'll kill ALL smoke is if the fire goes completely out.
> 
> After 10-15 minutes, you should just see gentle smoldering smoke coming from the stack. The fire is still getting some air via the stack (small downdraft).
> 
> Steve



Yup, The smoke will just gently roll out of the chimney when closed. When the blower is running, the smoke is pushed out with force.


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## fletcher0780

berry5 said:


> what kind of price are we looking at just wondering? i did the mod on the level that is sweet that kicks butt i have a shaver 165 i love it



The blower mod cost me about $35


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## fletcher0780

Simple idea, it's even in the manual, but I didn't start implementing it until today. If your blower is on when you go to load tour boiler, open the ash door before pulling the coals forward over the grate. I was going to add a switch to the front to shut off the blower, but figured I'd end up forgetting to turn it back on after loading. Works very well so far. 

Here's a pic after raking the coals forward with the blower on and the ash door shut. it's a crappy phone camera, but the flame was mostly blue.


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## beerman6

You could use a 3-way switch,In one position the blowers on,in the other a loading/reminding light is on...


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## ngzcaz

Fletch, I see you are in Ct so I'm guessing you're burning anthracite coal ? Nut or egg ? Its around $ 175 a ton down this way..


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## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Fletch, I see you are in Ct so I'm guessing you're burning anthracite coal ? Nut or egg ? Its around $ 175 a ton down this way..



Miscommunication on my part, the pic is of my wood coal bed. I'm planning to try burning coal though at some point this winter. If it works out well, I may end up building an area to contain the coal and get a dump truck load. I know anthracite is available and I think the price is about the same as yours. Do you burn coal? If so how does it compare to wood, usage wise. Does a ton = a cord of hardwood?


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## hedgecutter

david78 said:


> I've had my Shaver 165 going about a month now with mixed results. Just did the steam fix yesterday, looks to be working good. After reading the posts here (great info!) I'm wondering if I have my heat exhanger plumbed backwards. The place I bought it from said to run the hot water in the top nipple and the return out the bottom. His reasoning is "it is most important that the nipple on the water to air heat exchanger that is closest to the fan is the cold water return to the outdoor wood furnace. the top nipple farthest away from the fan needs to be the hot water feed. this is improtant because as the cool air enters the air if hooked up this way then the bottom nipple will pre heat the air entering the water to air heat exchanger and as it exits the water to air heat exchanger the top nipple will super heat the air. if this is hooked up backwards the air entering the water to air heat exchanger will super heat the air and when it exits the water to air heat exchanger it will cool the air down." The guys on the site here say the opposite, hot in the bottom, cold out the top, which seems more logical to me. Anyone have the definitive answer? Thanks!



David78, your description on water flow and heat transfer sounds correct to me. But what you describe as top or bottom nipples is relative to the air flow direction of the blower. What I mean here is some forced air systems have a blower that blows in the "up" direction and some blow "down". If you want to maximize heat transfer then you want to flow the water and air through your heat exchanger in opposite directions. In other words "Counter Flow". This method introduces the hottest water to the air exiting the exchanger flowing to your ductwork and vents. On the flip side the slightly cooler water exiting the exchanger is preheating the air as it just enters the exchanger. I hope that explanation helps. On exchangers this size the direction does not really matter all that much in heat transfer. But to those of us wanting to tranfer all they can then counter flow maximizes heat transfer.


----------



## Cirrus Aviator

beerman6 said:


> You could use a 3-way switch,In one position the blowers on,in the other a loading/reminding light is on...



The 3-way is the best use. I have one side of the switch powering the yard light on the front of the the boiler. The other side of the switch powers the blower. Way to go Beerman. I have also wired a normally open thermostat in series with my aqua stat. That way if the water temp gets below what I set, 140 in this case, the blower goes off. Works great if I sleep in or go out of town. That way the blower is not blowing sub zero air in the burn chamber. It was a $20 dollar unit. If anyone is interested I can post the wire diagram.


----------



## beerman6

Good idea,might have to do that.


----------



## hedgecutter

fletcher0780, Here are the mods I have made to date on my Shaver 165. I installed the Ranco programmable temp controller in a copper tube drywell to help take the jacket water temperature swings out and put an on/off switch mounted on the side of the unit for the blower while loading wood. The only other thing is I have played around with is a blower door solenoid similar to yours, but I have yet to perfect it. I think I will try your fix on the fan door. That is it for now. I will keep you updated on any future changes I make.


----------



## fletcher0780

hedgecutter said:


> fletcher0780, Here are the mods I have made to date on my Shaver 165. I installed the Ranco programmable temp controller in a copper tube drywell to help take the jacket water temperature swings out and put an on/off switch mounted on the side of the unit for the blower while loading wood. The only other thing is I have played around with is a blower door solenoid similar to yours, but I have yet to perfect it. I think I will try your fix on the fan door. That is it for now. I will keep you updated on any future changes I make.



My blower door seems to be working well, I'll know for sure when I get home today, as it is quite warm out and I filled the firebox this morning. If all goes well I'll have no boiling issues. I have my Ranco set to blower off at 165, blower on at 155. Still looking for ideas on insulating the firebox door.


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## david78

Just stuff some unfaced fiberglass in there.


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## fletcher0780

david78 said:


> Just stuff some unfaced fiberglass in there.



Have you done that? I thought it would melt.


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## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> Have you done that? I thought it would melt.




Melt at 185 degrees? I would think it would be just fine.


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## fletcher0780

John D said:


> Melt at 185 degrees? I would think it would be just fine.



I'm not talking about insulating the water jacket, I'm talking about the firebox door in between the two panels, which is exposed to far more heat than 185.


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## mistergreentree

I just put a solenoid on my fan and made a damper out of the door. Thanks Fletcher! I also had to use a string to keep the door from over opening...I used a solenoid that we had laying around at work so this only cost me $6.00 for misc. parts and my time spent in the wind and snow this afternoon doing the mod. It all seems to work good right now...hoping this will reduce fan run times. Should know after a week or so of using.

Thanks again!

I've got some people working on the door insulation problem and will let you guys know what comes of it.


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## fletcher0780

mistergreentree said:


> I've got some people working on the door insulation problem and will let you guys know what comes of it.



I'll hold you to that


----------



## mistergreentree

fletcher0780 said:


> I'll hold you to that



Not making any promises......but am giving it thought as are others that I've asked.

I'm looking into ceramic fiber products...heat/fire resistant to 2300-2600*F
It can be purchased in sheet form or blanket form. Seems like the R value is around 3 per inch of thickness.

Any idea what temp the OWB fire would typically reach...I'm waiting on my infrared thermometer to arrive so I'm not sure what the range would be.


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## ngzcaz

Fletch... coal gives off roughly twice the BTU's of wood per pound.. however, a cord of wood ( oak for example) weighs roughly twice as much as a ton of coal so its pretty darn close. Pine and lighter woods will have less than coal because they don't weigh as much per cord. I haven't messed with coal since I still have access to wood down the back. I hope it lasts as long as I want to put the effort in getting it.

:greenchainsaw:


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## fletcher0780

mistergreentree said:


> Not making any promises......but am giving it thought as are others that I've asked.
> 
> I'm looking into ceramic fiber products...heat/fire resistant to 2300-2600*F
> It can be purchased in sheet form or blanket form. Seems like the R value is around 3 per inch of thickness.
> 
> Any idea what temp the OWB fire would typically reach...I'm waiting on my infrared thermometer to arrive so I'm not sure what the range would be.



Just a guess, but I think no more than 600-700* degrees tops at the door.


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## mistergreentree

fletcher0780 said:


> Just a guess, but I think no more than 600-700* degrees tops at the door.



I was working off of an assumption of no more than 1000* thinking that was plenty. I want to measure the space between the plates tomorrow to see what thickness I can get in there. I think the ceramic board just might do it...at least help. I only need to find some where I don't need to buy a whole pallet of the stuff. I've found it for around $12 per sheet, but you need to buy a pallet of 15. I want to check locally to see what I can find.

On a side note...Fletcher...thanks for the modifications you posted on this site...it has helped me quite a bit and I'm sure others too.


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## david78

The fiberglass turns black and probably will degrade over time, but it's cheap and sure reduces the temp on the outside of the door.


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## fletcher0780

mistergreentree said:


> I was working off of an assumption of no more than 1000* thinking that was plenty. I want to measure the space between the plates tomorrow to see what thickness I can get in there. I think the ceramic board just might do it...at least help. I only need to find some where I don't need to buy a whole pallet of the stuff. I've found it for around $12 per sheet, but you need to buy a pallet of 15. I want to check locally to see what I can find.
> 
> On a side note...Fletcher...thanks for the modifications you posted on this site...it has helped me quite a bit and I'm sure others too.



If you buy a sheet, I'll buy enough off you to do two oversized shaver doors (about 24"x24") and pay you for the S+H. No problem with the mod ideas, I've definitely "borrowed" some ideas from here, only seems fair to share some.



david78 said:


> The fiberglass turns black and probably will degrade over time, but it's cheap and sure reduces the temp on the outside of the door.


 
So you have filled the gap between your door with insulation? How long have had it like that? Is the door cooler to the touch?


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## urhstry

Hey Aviator, can you post that diagram? The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to put one on. :help:


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## projectsho89

Rock wool insulation will withstand the temps in an OWB without a doubt, you might want to consider it. Just wear gloves, long sleeve shirt, and a mask because it's more irritating than is fiberglass.

When comparing the BTU content of various volumes of woods and their weights with coal, don't forget the amount of moisture that is in the wood. Coal has almost none.

Steve


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## fletcher0780

TreeCo said:


> Just an observation: Insulating the door is going to result in the the part of the door exposed the inside of the firebox getting a lot hotter. Hopefully warping of the door will not be a problem.



Good call, maybe we could attach a ceramic panel to the inside of the inner most panel? Not sure about other OWB, but my shaver door gets well over 130*. I think insulating the door might help keep some more heat inside.

I hate to keep dominating these Shaver posts, but what have people done about the lack of insulation underneath the boiler. I sealed around the bottom of the boiler with expansion foam, but I imagine the concrete pad acts as a big heat sink and sucks up quite a bit. I think stuffing fiberglass insulation underneath is out because it will absorb a lot of water. We could probably fill the entire cavity with expansion foam, but that would be expensive. How about using that rockwool, or ceramic batting and stuff it in from the back with a stick? I assume it would hold up well to the moisture and could breath unlike the foam. Another option might be to slightly lift the boiler and slide a rigid foam panel underneath, then seal the edges with the expansion foam.

Another thought i had is some type of drop in baffle or catalytic converter down the stack to slightly restrict exhaust, retain heat, and possibly reduce emissions.

I believe one of the best ways to increase efficiency on any OWB is to improve the insulation. I might be over thinking it, or maybe not. Next Spring, I plan to remove the siding from my boiler and install those high-density foil backed rigid foam panels between the framing over the existing insulation. It can be held in with tape and removed easily if need for service.


----------



## Jmont48

*Buyer Beware*

Just a note to anyone considering a new Shaver, I ordered one on August 19, 2008 direct from the Factory, I was told it would be manufactured in early November and I would get it in early December. Well, I just spoke to the factory, and they are still making ones that were ordered in July. Mine probably won't be made until later this month, and then Ben pretty much admitted to me that their method of shipping is all screwed up. Long story short, I have no idea when I'll get my stove. It's very frustrating. From what others have written in this thread, this is a company that needs to improve a lot of things. I would not recommend them. As for me, I'm going to see if I can get my money back. Of course, it takes a week of hitting redial just to get through to them...


----------



## Cirrus Aviator

*Auto shut off for Shaver*



urhstry said:


> Hey Aviator, can you post that diagram? The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to put one on. :help:



Here is the diagram, I used (2) two-pole switches, and a N/O adjustable (90 to 150 degrees) thermostat that I got from the local Dey appliance store.

Hope this helps. Like I said the big advantage is that I can load the hopper full if I am going out of town and the blower will go off when the temp goes below what I have it set at. In this case 140 degs. This way the blower isn't trying to fan an empty hopper, in essence cooling my boiler.


----------



## John D

Jmont48 said:


> Just a note to anyone considering a new Shaver, I ordered one on August 19, 2008 direct from the Factory, I was told it would be manufactured in early November and I would get it in early December. Well, I just spoke to the factory, and they are still making ones that were ordered in July. Mine probably won't be made until later this month, and then Ben pretty much admitted to me that their method of shipping is all screwed up. Long story short, I have no idea when I'll get my stove. It's very frustrating. From what others have written in this thread, this is a company that needs to improve a lot of things. I would not recommend them. As for me, I'm going to see if I can get my money back. Of course, it takes a week of hitting redial just to get through to them...




FYI, I order June 19th,still no boiler,not even a shipping confirmation,nothing. I am shopping for a boiler now,apparently 23 weeks isnt enough time for Shaver to deliver.beings you ordered 2 months after me, i would not wait for them if I were you,I wish I had jumped ship 2 months ago myself,just get your money back,cut your losses and move on.


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## mistergreentree

fletcher0780 said:


> Good call, maybe we could attach a ceramic panel to the inside of the inner most panel? Not sure about other OWB, but my shaver door gets well over 130*. I think insulating the door might help keep some more heat inside.
> 
> I hate to keep dominating these Shaver posts, but what have people done about the lack of insulation underneath the boiler. I sealed around the bottom of the boiler with expansion foam, but I imagine the concrete pad acts as a big heat sink and sucks up quite a bit. I think stuffing fiberglass insulation underneath is out because it will absorb a lot of water. We could probably fill the entire cavity with expansion foam, but that would be expensive. How about using that rockwool, or ceramic batting and stuff it in from the back with a stick? I assume it would hold up well to the moisture and could breath unlike the foam. Another option might be to slightly lift the boiler and slide a rigid foam panel underneath, then seal the edges with the expansion foam.



I have mine raised about 10" off the concrete. I wanted the fill door to be closer to waist height...seems easier to load for me. Anyway, I put some leftover pieces of rigid blue foam under there and then blocked off all around with wood blocks. This spring/summer I plan to cut some foam to actually fit snug under there and then put siding around to skirt the stove and help protect the foam board. I just didn't like the idea of the bottom being completely exposed like it was after I raised it.

I like the idea about rigid foam board on the sides too...I was thinking of foaming it this summer, but was worried about if I ever needed to fix a leak etc....

I haven't been able to find a local supplier for the ceramic stuff yet and nothing online where I can buy just a sheet.


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## ngzcaz

Insulating the OWB basically is a good idea, however, I'm not sure about going crazy making the boiler airtight underneath. Seems like you'd be inviting rust to form and cause big problems. Kinda like overdoing house insulation and ending up with mold, etc etc. And dont forget your boiler has to obtain an oxygen supply to the draft motor. If you make it too tight, can the motor draw enough fresh air to feed the fire ? Top, sides and door, thumbs up.. underneath ???


And... rock wool would hold up under the temps..my Dad used to work as a rigger at the Bethlehem steel years ago and occasionally worked in the " wool plant as he called it " he hated it..itched, had rashes etc it also settles over time so that might be a consideration.



:bang:


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## mistergreentree

ngzcaz said:


> Insulating the OWB basically is a good idea, however, I'm not sure about going crazy making the boiler airtight underneath. Seems like you'd be inviting rust to form and cause big problems. Kinda like overdoing house insulation and ending up with mold, etc etc. And dont forget your boiler has to obtain an oxygen supply to the draft motor. If you make it too tight, can the motor draw enough fresh air to feed the fire ? Top, sides and door, thumbs up.. underneath ???
> 
> :bang:



I agree about the rust...I was planning on leaving the back portion where the pipes go down pretty much open to allow air to the blower. The bottom of the water jacket is where I would build up the foam board but not tight, basically blocking off the cement pad and as much of the sides as possible to prevent wind from flowing under it.


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## fletcher0780

How about this place for ceramic insulation? Maybe we could stuff the blanket between the panels. Not sure what the r value is, kind of expensive $76 for 4lb 1"x24"x24" and $96 for 8lb 1"x24"x24"
http://www.minsealorder.com/SelProd.aspx?styleid=22


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## david78

TreeCo said:


> Just an observation: Insulating the door is going to result in the the part of the door exposed the inside of the firebox getting a lot hotter. Hopefully warping of the door will not be a problem.



Seems to me creating a heat differential is the whole point of the heat shield: heat shield-hot, door-cool. The problem is the air space between the two isn't a very good insulator. Stuffing some kind of insulation in there just does what the air is supposed to do, only better. I suppose too big a difference in temp could warp the door; I don't know. Those doors seem pretty stout to me. I've had fiberglass in mine a week or so; keeps the door cool enough to put your hand against it and leave it there. 
Another idea might be to add a second heat shield to the existing one. A sheet of steel, 4 bolts and some spacers; would be pretty easy.


----------



## fletcher0780

david78 said:


> Seems to me creating a heat differential is the whole point of the heat shield: heat shield-hot, door-cool. The problem is the air space between the two isn't a very good insulator. Stuffing some kind of insulation in there just does what the air is supposed to do, only better. I suppose too big a difference in temp could warp the door; I don't know. Those doors seem pretty stout to me. I've had fiberglass in mine a week or so; keeps the door cool enough to put your hand against it and leave it there.
> Another idea might be to add a second heat shield to the existing one. A sheet of steel, 4 bolts and some spacers; would be pretty easy.



Let us know how it holds up please.

Anyone consider lining their floor with firebrick? I'm very interested in this.


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## fletcher0780

Just found this stuff, not a bad price 2ftx12ftx2in for $42.60. That should be enough to do 6 doors. Does anyone know how this stuff is to work with? Can you cut it with shears?

http://www.mcgillswarehouse.com/ItemsList.aspx?groupID=10912&GN=CERAMICSPUNBLANKET8LB/FT3or128KG/M3


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## ngzcaz

Now that I've opened and closed my 165 door a couple dozen times, the door no longer is tight and hard to close. In fact I saw a wisp of smoke every now and then come out the door. As a temp fix get a small wedge ( really small ) and as you close the door put it in the cam part of the lever, then close the door. Tightens it nicely. Looks like it can be adjusted and IF we get a warmer day till the end of winter I'll mess with it. I think the gasket still had to be molded to the configuration of the door so I don't consider this a flaw per se..

** put a little never seize on the metal to metal area of the door and forget about hard opening or rust...ever.. 


:greenchainsaw:


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## david78

I had a piece of the flat rope gasket like you get for woodstove doors so I put it on my 165; the furnace side, so the door closes against the gasket. I used the black silicone. Makes for a tight seal.


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## ngzcaz

I'm a little surprised that you could put the gasket material on and the existing silicone and not have difficulty closing the door. Mine was fairly tight the first 30 or 40 openings.


----------



## david78

Mine seemed a little loose from day one.


----------



## fletcher0780

I melted some of the silicone when I first started using mine. I wedge a wood chip when I close the door to make a tight seal. I plan to do something with it in the Spring, but I'm not sure what yet...


----------



## ngzcaz

If you want it permanent and have a welder, take the door off and weld a bead where you have the wood chip, file it a bit and you're good until the silicone wears out.


----------



## trshmn

ngzcaz said:


> If you want it permanent and have a welder, take the door off and weld a bead where you have the wood chip, file it a bit and you're good until the silicone wears out.



Forget about that, I had the same problem with silicone last year, I took it off in the summer and put 5/8 rope gasket on, but don't use the glue that comes with it, use the 500 deg. black silicone and keep the creosote from forming on the gasket or the metal, ( scrape off every time you load it) if it's there, I use a hoe to rake the coals and if there is creosote I scrape it off, works alot better than the factory silicone gasket.


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## ngzcaz

To each his own I guess.. If the door closes tightly creosote can't form on the silicone. Scraping the door gasket material is not something I want to do every time I open it. There wasn't any creosote on the silicone gasket part of the door even with a wisp of smoke every now and then. Since its now seated well, I don't expect to have to do it for a long time. Sounds like yours may not have been seated from the git-go. And when you put the rope gasket on didn't you have to adjust the door ? Must have lucked out getting the exact thickness for the door to close properly.

:greenchainsaw:


----------



## hedgecutter

*Blower Solenoid*



fletcher0780 said:


> I actually got it here:
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/42984/Dormeyer_2005-M-1_Laminated_Solenoid
> 
> grainger wanted me to set up an account, so I went with drillspot. This thing is way more solenoid than I need. It's very strong and the door is very light. It seems to work well so far.



Hey Fletch,

How is your blower solenoid you bought from drillspot working out? Does its operation on the blower flap seem to be pretty consistent?


----------



## fletcher0780

hedgecutter said:


> Hey Fletch,
> 
> How is your blower solenoid you bought from drillspot working out? Does its operation on the blower flap seem to be pretty consistent?



Working well, no problems.


----------



## ngzcaz

Will the solenoid allow the fire to smolder ? Or on warmer days and there's no call for heat, could the fire go out due to the airtightness of the flapper ? Adjustable ?


----------



## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Will the solenoid allow the fire to smolder ? Or on warmer days and there's no call for heat, could the fire go out due to the airtightness of the flapper ? Adjustable ?



it's adjustable, but I let it close completely. Other manufacturers do the same thing.


----------



## fletcher0780

I'm going to buy some coal this weekend to try in the stove. I was quoted $245/ton for anthracite stove coal. They also have anthracite nut, and bituminous. I think I'll just start with a 1/4 or 1/2 ton and try shoveling on a few scoops before loading the wood on those frigid nights. Any thoughts?


----------



## trshmn

fletcher0780 said:


> it's adjustable, but I let it close completely. Other manufacturers do the same thing.



My friend has a Hardy stove and his damper has two small 1/4" holes in it with screws in, the dealer told him to leave one screw out and if that did'nt keep the fire going then take the other screw out.


----------



## trshmn

ngzcaz said:


> To each his own I guess.. If the door closes tightly creosote can't form on the silicone. Scraping the door gasket material is not something I want to do every time I open it. There wasn't any creosote on the silicone gasket part of the door even with a wisp of smoke every now and then. Since its now seated well, I don't expect to have to do it for a long time. Sounds like yours may not have been seated from the git-go. And when you put the rope gasket on didn't you have to adjust the door ? Must have lucked out getting the exact thickness for the door to close properly.
> 
> :greenchainsaw:



What I said is if the creosote is there!!!! what happens is when you open the door, the creosote is almost like bubble gum, it will stretch , and it usually drips over the metal part of the stove. sometimes it will stick to the rope and I will just wipe it off, it does'nt drip out. most guys have a tape measure to measure the channel of the door to see what size gasket you'll need!!! you can try 1/2" but I just thought that the 5/8" was a better fit.


----------



## trshmn

fletcher0780 said:


> I actually got it here:
> http://www.drillspot.com/products/42984/Dormeyer_2005-M-1_Laminated_Solenoid
> 
> grainger wanted me to set up an account, so I went with drillspot. This thing is way more solenoid than I need. It's very strong and the door is very light. It seems to work well so far.



Fletch, Got my solenoid in three days, ordered from drillspot but it came in a Grainger box, I think it was cheaper than ordering from grainger, haven't had a chance to put it on, (deer gun season in Ohio) to busy butchering deer and filling the freezer, can't wait to hook it up


----------



## Windwalker7

Hey Fletch,


For your blower mod, when you rotated the blower opening, did you have to redrill the holes?


Also, the selenoid in your link, is the one you got the one in the enlarged photo?


Thanks, I want to try this blower mod.


----------



## fletcher0780

Windwalker7 said:


> Hey Fletch,
> 
> 
> For your blower mod, when you rotated the blower opening, did you have to redrill the holes?
> 
> 
> Also, the selenoid in your link, is the one you got the one in the enlarged photo?
> 
> 
> Thanks, I want to try this blower mod.



just had to re-drill two of the holes, the solenoid is the same one. I'd use a chain instead of the turnbuckle, mine keeps loosening up.


----------



## mistergreentree

fletcher0780 said:


> just had to re-drill two of the holes, the solenoid is the same one. I'd use a chain instead of the turnbuckle, mine keeps loosening up.



My turnbuckle is loosening too...going to try some locktite on it tonight to see if that will help hold it. I like the ability to fine tune the opening with the turnbuckle.


----------



## John D

mistergreentree said:


> My turnbuckle is loosening too...going to try some locktite on it tonight to see if that will help hold it. I like the ability to fine tune the opening with the turnbuckle.



I have a hot glue gun,and use it for things like this. load the threads,and nut with it,and you can adjust it still and reapply as needed. I love hot glue:greenchainsaw:


----------



## derwood91

Take your turnbucke apart and put another nut on there. Then re-assemble, adjust damper opening and use the second nut as a "Jam-Nut". This will keep it from loosening up.


----------



## fletcher0780

david78 said:


> Seems to me creating a heat differential is the whole point of the heat shield: heat shield-hot, door-cool. The problem is the air space between the two isn't a very good insulator. Stuffing some kind of insulation in there just does what the air is supposed to do, only better. I suppose too big a difference in temp could warp the door; I don't know. Those doors seem pretty stout to me. I've had fiberglass in mine a week or so; keeps the door cool enough to put your hand against it and leave it there.
> Another idea might be to add a second heat shield to the existing one. A sheet of steel, 4 bolts and some spacers; would be pretty easy.



Is the fiberglass insulation between your door still holding up?


----------



## david78

Other than being black around the exposed edges, I don't see any change since I put it in. The outside of the door stays cool to the touch and the inside surface of the heat shield is covered with fine brown ash rather than creosote.Don't see any problems so far.


----------



## fletcher0780

david78 said:


> Other than being black around the exposed edges, I don't see any change since I put it in. The outside of the door stays cool to the touch and the inside surface of the heat shield is covered with fine brown ash rather than creosote.Don't see any problems so far.



Cool, I think I'll try that, I just didn't want a sticky melted mess of insulation. I was thinking about pulling the door off this summer and lining in between the panels with firebrick, but if the fiberglass works, it will be much easier.


----------



## hypothesis

I've had some R13 in the door for about 3 weeks now and have the same results as david78. The outside of the door is cooler to the touch and the inside reflective plate doesn't have the creasote on it as before. The fiberglass insulation is blackened on the outside edges, but other than that, it seems to be holding up.


----------



## fletcher0780

hypothesis said:


> I've had some R13 in the door for about 3 weeks now and have the same results as david78. The outside of the door is cooler to the touch and the inside reflective plate doesn't have the creasote on it as before. The fiberglass insulation is blackened on the outside edges, but other than that, it seems to be holding up.



I packed mine full of insulation yesterday. The outside door is still warm, but the inside is a nice white color. I think I might pull the door apart in the spring still and add firebrick in there.


----------



## DLav

*Blower motor failed Xmas morning*

I have a Shaver 165, I installed it about 7 weeks ago, I woke this morning, Christmas morning and the house was cold. I checked the fire, fire was fine, but the blower wasn't running, I checked it out and the blower motor has quit working. Good voltage and good ground to the motor, but nothing. NOBODY is open on Christmas, I opened the draft on the blower as far as it would go and the temp came back up, but right now I have absolutely no way to control the temp in the firebox. The blower on mine is made by Dayton, hopefully Grainger will have one in stock tomorrow. Has anyone dealt with Shaver on a warranty claim???? No easier than they are to get hold of, I won't be holding my breath.

Hey Fletcher, I've never burned coal in my Shaver, but I have used coal on cold nights at our deercamp in Michigan's upper peninsula. It can get super cold there and we'll add a couple small shovel fulls to the fire before we go to bed. What we've found is that we get a lot hotter fire and it burns along time. Not so hot that I would worry about any danger, just makes the cabin too hot to sleep sometimes. Shaver says that the boilers can handle it, if I had access to a lot of it, I'd use it myself.


----------



## ngzcaz

A hard lesson, but it seems we ( and perhaps other OWB makes & owners ) should have a spare draft blower and a spare pump. The suckers always go out at the worst possible times.. and if I'm not mistaken you aren't the only one that had a failure of either the pump or the draft blower. Might be interesting to know how many more have had an issue with either. It is a warrenty replacement. Make sure you get yours at n/c.

:censored:


----------



## fletcher0780

I had a blower failure in October. Email billy at weldrite and ask him to send you a replacement, he will but it may take a few days to a week. In the mean time buy a replacement from grainger or elsewhere and then you'll have a spare on hand. 

FYI, my blower failure was caused by a leaky pipe that dripped on the blower.


----------



## DLav

*New blower on the way*



ngzcaz said:


> A hard lesson, but it seems we ( and perhaps other OWB makes & owners ) should have a spare draft blower and a spare pump. The suckers always go out at the worst possible times.. and if I'm not mistaken you aren't the only one that had a failure of either the pump or the draft blower. Might be interesting to know how many more have had an issue with either. It is a warrenty replacement. Make sure you get yours at n/c.
> 
> :censored:



Thanks ngzcaz,

I emailed Shaver on Christmas day, then wrote down the Dayton part number and got online and found Grainger carries it. I called Grainger this morning and the local distributor near me had it. On the way to Grainger, Billy from Shaver called me and said it would be covered under warranty. He suggested opening the draft up and maybe cracking the ash door some. He offered either a replacement or a refund of the one I bought today. I asked for the replacement so I would have a spare, in the event I need it later on. While at Grainger I also picked up a spare pump. So I hope I'm all set. A guy I work with has a different make OWB (I'm not sure what kind) and his has a special designed fan in the door, his fan went out a couple weeks ago and it took 3 - 4 days to get a replacement. I'm glad parts are easy to pick up for the Shaver. 

At any rate, Shaver did an excellent job of responding, less than 24 hours over Christmas, I was impressed. They even made a follow up call in the afternoon to see if everything worked out okay.


----------



## DLav

*Blower motor on the way*



DLav said:


> I have a Shaver 165, I installed it about 7 weeks ago, I woke this morning, Christmas morning and the house was cold. I checked the fire, fire was fine, but the blower wasn't running, I checked it out and the blower motor has quit working. Good voltage and good ground to the motor, but nothing. NOBODY is open on Christmas, I opened the draft on the blower as far as it would go and the temp came back up, but right now I have absolutely no way to control the temp in the firebox. The blower on mine is made by Dayton, hopefully Grainger will have one in stock tomorrow. Has anyone dealt with Shaver on a warranty claim?
> 
> 
> 
> While on the way to Grainger the next morning to pick up a blower motor, Billy from Shaver called me and offered to send a replacement or a refund of the one I purchased. He was helpful and professional, I was truly impressed that he called so quickly. We also got a follow up call from Shaver later that day to make sure everything went okay.
> 
> I'm very happy with the response time and helpfulness of the Shaver staff.
> Thanks.
Click to expand...


----------



## DLav

fletcher0780 said:


> I had a blower failure in October. Email billy at weldrite and ask him to send you a replacement, he will but it may take a few days to a week. In the mean time buy a replacement from grainger or elsewhere and then you'll have a spare on hand.
> 
> FYI, my blower failure was caused by a leaky pipe that dripped on the blower.



Thanks Fletcher,
Got the blower motor coming, Billy and Shaver were great about it. I don't have any leaking pipes, but I do have steam leaking (I think) in the top/back of the unit. Enough steam that the insulation is wet and dripping, it doesn't appear to be dripping on the motor, but the insulation is quite wet. Is this the leak that I'm reading other ppl are having that needs to be resealed around the domestic water coil cover?
Also, I'm going to make the modification to the blower draft and add the soleniod while I'm changing the motor.


----------



## fletcher0780

DLav said:


> Thanks Fletcher,
> Got the blower motor coming, Billy and Shaver were great about it. I don't have any leaking pipes, but I do have steam leaking (I think) in the top/back of the unit. Enough steam that the insulation is wet and dripping, it doesn't appear to be dripping on the motor, but the insulation is quite wet. Is this the leak that I'm reading other ppl are having that needs to be resealed around the domestic water coil cover?
> Also, I'm going to make the modification to the blower draft and add the soleniod while I'm changing the motor.



Yes, it's really important to seal up the cover with hi-temp silicone. Wet insulation is useless. My blower modification is working very well, no problems with it so far.


----------



## ngzcaz

DeLav, yours sounds destined for the Shaver Positive post forum. Shaver needs some positive posts after the beating they took early on....


:agree2:


----------



## John D

Im just wondering why everyone is stressing the need for hi-temp silicone when regular silicone sealer holds up in engines running 240 degrees.The boiler never gets over 200.I used regular silicone sealer,and it is working perfectly,no steaming,no leaking,and i shot the area with my infrared temp lazer,and got 180 degrees.I am getting dripping from inside the roof,mostly because of the expose single wall chimney,leaking all that heat under the roof.I am going to wrap the chimney with hi temp header wrap,and hopefully this will stop the sweating.


----------



## fletcher0780

John D said:


> Im just wondering why everyone is stressing the need for hi-temp silicone when regular silicone sealer holds up in engines running 240 degrees.The boiler never gets over 200.I used regular silicone sealer,and it is working perfectly,no steaming,no leaking,and i shot the area with my infrared temp lazer,and got 180 degrees.I am getting dripping from inside the roof,mostly because of the expose single wall chimney,leaking all that heat under the roof.I am going to wrap the chimney with hi temp header wrap,and hopefully this will stop the sweating.



I too initially used standard silicone, but after boiling the water once, the steam quickly destroyed that clear silicone. I had steam leaks all around the plate. The worst part was pealing that crap off after the steam hardened it beyond belief. It turned to a hard yellowish plastic blob that took two hours to clean off. I hope you don't have the same experience, but to anyone who hasn't decided what to use yet, please spend the extra $5 on the hi-temp stuff and save yourself the trouble.


----------



## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I too initially used standard silicone, but after boiling the water once, the steam quickly destroyed that clear silicone. I had steam leaks all around the plate. The worst part was pealing that crap off after the steam hardened it beyond belief. It turned to a hard yellowish plastic blob that took two hours to clean off. I hope you don't have the same experience, but to anyone who hasn't decided what to use yet, please spend the extra $5 on the hi-temp stuff and save yourself the trouble.



Thank you,that makes sense.I have a hard time getting mine to 180,with the dampner open 3/4 of the way,no need to worry about steaming here.


----------



## ngzcaz

If the temps stay around 40 today and tomorrow, I'll wrap my pipe with some leftover solarguard. See if works as well as its supposed to. Two wraps and I should be able to touch it w/out a problem.  

As far as the ridiculous slide cover for the copper coil, thats one project thats top of the list for spring. I have no idea what they were thinking when they made that. :censored:


----------



## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> If the temps stay around 40 today and tomorrow, I'll wrap my pipe with some leftover solarguard. See if works as well as its supposed to. Two wraps and I should be able to touch it w/out a problem.
> 
> As far as the ridiculous slide cover for the copper coil, thats one project thats top of the list for spring. I have no idea what they were thinking when they made that. :censored:


Are you talking about wrapping your chimney with solar guard? I added a few more bats of unfaced R30, and it fills the void right up to the roof, but wrapping the chimney first definitely couldn't hurt. 

You better document whatever you come up with for the cover modification. I'm thinking you're on the right track with a rubber gasket, maybe add 4 studs and wing nuts, for removal. I like the idea of the removable cover, lets you see what's going on inside, but not at the expense of the pain in the ass sealing.


----------



## DLav

*Sealing DHW cover*



fletcher0780 said:


> Are you talking about wrapping your chimney with solar guard? I added a few more bats of unfaced R30, and it fills the void right up to the roof, but wrapping the chimney first definitely couldn't hurt.
> 
> You better document whatever you come up with for the cover modification. I'm thinking you're on the right track with a rubber gasket, maybe add 4 studs and wing nuts, for removal. I like the idea of the removable cover, lets you see what's going on inside, but not at the expense of the pain in the ass sealing.



Hey Fletch,

Can you seal the cover with the boiler at operating temp? After looking at the blower motor more carefully I see there are alot of water spots on it, it may be that water was the cause of the failure. So I decided not to change it yet, the unit is working pretty good without it right now, I have the draft open all the way, with the blower not working and the warm weather we're having, its going okay. I modified the blower with a solenoid, but I couldn't get the same one you used. The one I bought is smaller, so I mounted right to the body of the blower. I'm going to try and reseal the cover tomorrow, before I change the blower.


----------



## fletcher0780

DLav said:


> Hey Fletch,
> 
> Can you seal the cover with the boiler at operating temp? After looking at the blower motor more carefully I see there are alot of water spots on it, it may be that water was the cause of the failure. So I decided not to change it yet, the unit is working pretty good without it right now, I have the draft open all the way, with the blower not working and the warm weather we're having, its going okay. I modified the blower with a solenoid, but I couldn't get the same one you used. The one I bought is smaller, so I mounted right to the body of the blower. I'm going to try and reseal the cover tomorrow, before I change the blower.



I let the temp drop down to 100* when I sealed my cover, too much steam otherwise. The solenoid I have is way overkill, so you should be OK. Take some pics of your set up.


----------



## ngzcaz

I'm hoping w/the supposed warm temps tomorrow I can at least do the chimney and yes a few wraps of solarguard is what I had in mind. If I can touch it and its only slightly warm I'll be satisfied with that for the time being.
I have some left over stainless steel tape from when I made my own insulated pipe to secure it just for test purposes.

The cover is another story. I can think about it till spring when the unit can be shut off w/out burning my fingers. There's no reason why this cant be a five minute or less removal and replacement.. and it opens up possibility's of accurate water temp, easy fast filling of chemicals by drilling holes either on the top or sides of the cover.. heck Shaver already did that on the side for the copper hot water coil... I ordered mine w/out the coil so the holes weren't in the cover. Easy enough to drill what I need. The rubber gasket ( an old thick truck inner tube? ) thats simply compressed by weight ( 2 ten lb or more from an old barbell set might work, but maybe thats too easy ? ) An infrared reading would be in order before I'd trust the rubber.


----------



## John D

Reading this thread has been like looking into my future.I woke up this morning with my temps right around 150 in the house,which is wierd since it wasnt cold last night,and I filled the firebox at 8pm,so i knew id have wood in there.So i go out to find my blower dead. For now i reloaded the firebox with the driest stuff i had,and left the door cracked for 5 minutes,and Ill watch it today,its supposed to be warm,so it may be fine idling all day with damper open 3/4 of the way,which is where it always is.There is water droplets all around the blower from the inside of the roof dripping down the back of the unit,this may have cause the failure,I do not know yet.Fan blades spin freely,Im going out with a DVOM to confirm the Tstat is working and im getting 120VAC to the fan as well as a working N and ground connection.Then I will call Shaver,if its bad.


----------



## fletcher0780

John D said:


> Reading this thread has been like looking into my future.I woke up this morning with my temps right around 150 in the house,which is wierd since it wasnt cold last night,and I filled the firebox at 8pm,so i knew id have wood in there.So i go out to find my blower dead. For now i reloaded the firebox with the driest stuff i had,and left the door cracked for 5 minutes,and Ill watch it today,its supposed to be warm,so it may be fine idling all day with damper open 3/4 of the way,which is where it always is.There is water droplets all around the blower from the inside of the roof dripping down the back of the unit,this may have cause the failure,I do not know yet.Fan blades spin freely,Im going out with a DVOM to confirm the Tstat is working and im getting 120VAC to the fan as well as a working N and ground connection.Then I will call Shaver,if its bad.



If you have power to the blower, tap the aquastat with the back of a screwdriver, I've noticed sometimes they freeze up (good reason to replace it with a digital aquastat).


----------



## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> If you have power to the blower, tap the aquastat with the back of a screwdriver, I've noticed sometimes they freeze up (good reason to replace it with a digital aquastat).



I've got the digital aquastat here,but i havent got the 3/8" copper tube to make a sleeve yet,and i still have to drill the hole in the top plate.Ive been putting that off too,with being busy with Christmas,and the snow before it.


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## DLav

*Blower modification*

Here is the blower modification I made to my draft blower, basically the same one Fletcher posted, but Grainger didn't have the same solenoid in stock, so I bought a smaller one. It looked small enough to mount directly on the blower, so I gave it a shot. I riveted most of it together, hopefully any slight vibration from the blower won't shake it loose. If it does start to loosen up, I'll mig weld it. Some of the stuff I had laying around, the solenoid was 20 bucks, all together it would be around $30 or so to do.


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## fletcher0780

I like it!

Very nice, much better than mine, you didn't even need to rotate the blower. FYI, my damper worked very well today. The temp got up to about 60*, I loaded the crap out of my boiler to see if I could get the water to boil. My boiler is set to shut the damper and blower off at 175, my water got to 185* with no load and no circ. pumps running.


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## DLav

fletcher0780 said:


> I like it!
> 
> Very nice, much better than mine, you didn't even need to rotate the blower. FYI, my damper worked very well today. The temp got up to about 60*, I loaded the crap out of my boiler to see if I could get the water to boil. My boiler is set to shut the damper and blower off at 175, my water got to 185* with no load and no circ. pumps running.



Thanks Fletcher, it was your idea. I installed it this morning after resealing the DHW cover. Did your cover come from the factory sealed with silicone? My owners manual indicates that it should have been, but mine wasn't. And it was way out of position, pushed back 2-3 inches on the right side, the insulation is absolutely soaked. I'm gonna have to replace it soon, I was hoping to wait until spring, but I think I should go ahead and do it now. 

I purchased a cheap I.R. thermometer from Harbor freight, the readings it gives me really don't add up, I don't think its very accurate. I really need to install gauges or get something better. 

Do you have your pump in the house or in the back of your OWB?

Thanks again for all your help.


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## John D

DLav,very nice setup you made there! Great use of the rivet gun.I'm not sure which to copy now,yours or fletchers,they are both great! I did notice the sol that fletcher used seems way overkill,in fact it draws quite abit of current ,at .43 amps seated,so i was thinking of using a smaller one anyway,just to save electricity,as i need all i can save with both circs running full time.It hit 60+ here today,i had no problem with steaming with my damper open 3/4 of the way.I do have my OWB circ on 24/7,and my indoor boiler loop circ on 24/7 as well.I wonder if this is why my temps dont get as high.I always have water circulating,which keeps hot spots to a minimum,and the combination of keeping all the pipes hot,and the hx,and indoor boiler hot is enough to keep it from getting high on temps.


----------



## DLav

John D said:


> DLav,very nice setup you made there! Great use of the rivet gun.I'm not sure which to copy now,yours or fletchers,they are both great! I did notice the sol that fletcher used seems way overkill,in fact it draws quite abit of current ,at .43 amps seated,so i was thinking of using a smaller one anyway,just to save electricity,as i need all i can save with both circs running full time.It hit 60+ here today,i had no problem with steaming with my damper open 3/4 of the way.I do have my OWB circ on 24/7,and my indoor boiler loop circ on 24/7 as well.I wonder if this is why my temps dont get as high.I always have water circulating,which keeps hot spots to a minimum,and the combination of keeping all the pipes hot,and the hx,and indoor boiler hot is enough to keep it from getting high on temps.



Thanks John, I got the idea from Fletch and it seems to be working great. Before it seemed like the blower was running non stop, but now it appears to cycle on and off like it should. Here is the Grainger part number if you want it, 4X239 the book says it uses 0.24 amps fully seated and it is continuous duty cycle. Also I used the electrical cover from the old blower to make a 'cover' for the solenoid, I had to do a little grinding on it, but I thought it might help protect the solenoid, in the event of a leaking pipe. The mounting brackets are 2" corner brackets from the hardware, the linkage is a 2" strap with the corners ground down, and a 1/8" roll pin. I did have to remove some of the webbing in the blower housing with a die grinder so the rivets and eyebolt would let the cover lay flat, also used threadlocker on the eyebolt and a locknut for the nut on the inside, so it shouldn't come loose and fall into the fan. Good luck with it, one nice thing with this set up, you can build it in the shop watching football and drinking a beer. I know this for a fact.


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## fletcher0780

DLav said:


> Thanks Fletcher, it was your idea. I installed it this morning after resealing the DHW cover. Did your cover come from the factory sealed with silicone? My owners manual indicates that it should have been, but mine wasn't. And it was way out of position, pushed back 2-3 inches on the right side, the insulation is absolutely soaked. I'm gonna have to replace it soon, I was hoping to wait until spring, but I think I should go ahead and do it now.
> 
> I purchased a cheap I.R. thermometer from Harbor freight, the readings it gives me really don't add up, I don't think its very accurate. I really need to install gauges or get something better.
> 
> Do you have your pump in the house or in the back of your OWB?
> 
> Thanks again for all your help.



No, my cover wasn't sealed from the factory. When you replace the insulation, remove rghe siding from the rear gable end of the boiler, it only takes a few minutes and gives you way more access. My pump is in the basement, I'm using a grundfos that is not rated for outdoor use,


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## John D

Ok,I have been busy today.I hoped to get the new aquastat installed and the blower mod done.However due to a few unrelated interuptions,I only got the blower mod done,and i did the 3/8" copper drop pipe line,so tomorrow ill only need to do the electrical end of the stat. The damper mod came out great,it was easy to do,just took some time.I used the 4x239 solenoid,which is much stronger than it needs to be.It actually slams shut and open so loud you can hear it from 50 ft away.Thanks again fletcher,and Dlav for the pics and doing the mod first.Id like to add a cover to the solenoid yet,I may,just too many other things that are more important to get done before the weather gets real cold again.Here are a few shots.


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## John D

One additional issue I wanted to bring up is the opening for the blower fan. In all honesty it totally disgusted me to see the poor quality welds,and lack of any type of caring as to what they built.They never even dressed the mounting flange where it meets with the blower.The problem is there was about 1/4" round pieces of weld ,and slag from sloppy welding.they just put on the blower,and tightened the bolts right over it.The blower housing got bent up naturally,and there wasnt even close to being a seal there,so you couldn't dampen it all the way if you wanted too,as there was an air gap almost 1/4" thich 1/2 around it. I knew I wasnt getting a top of line boiler,but every time i work on the shaver I see just more and more poor quality and lack of fit and finish. I cleaned up the mounting flange and used sealer between the blower,and flange so i can get a good tight seal there to slow the burn.


----------



## DLav

John D said:


> One additional issue I wanted to bring up is the opening for the blower fan. In all honesty it totally disgusted me to see the poor quality welds,and lack of any type of caring as to what they built.They never even dressed the mounting flange where it meets with the blower.The problem is there was about 1/4" round pieces of weld ,and slag from sloppy welding.they just put on the blower,and tightened the bolts right over it.The blower housing got bent up naturally,and there wasnt even close to being a seal there,so you couldn't dampen it all the way if you wanted too,as there was an air gap almost 1/4" thich 1/2 around it. I knew I wasnt getting a top of line boiler,but every time i work on the shaver I see just more and more poor quality and lack of fit and finish. I cleaned up the mounting flange and used sealer between the blower,and flange so i can get a good tight seal there to slow the burn.



Hey John,

Glad it worked for you. So far it seems to be helping the efficiency of mine. I've used alot less wood the last couple days, but it hasn't been that cold. The temps are supposed to get back to normal for this time of year, so the coming week should be a good test. 

Thats a bummer about your flange, mine was smooth, no probs with that. But when I pulled back the insulation to reseal the DHW cover I could see daylight around half the chimney where the sealant was pulled loose. At least some of my water problems are coming in from outside, the insulation is ruined, so thats my next project. After that I'll get on to the digital aquastat.
Good luck.


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## fletcher0780

I've found that setting the on/off differential to 5* instead of 10* seams to give the boiler more "down time". I think it takes too long for the boiler to drop 10* and then it is difficult for the boiler to recover that loss in any decent amount of time. 5* ensures the fire hasn't gone so dormant that it can't be brought back to life in short order, it also seems to smoke less and I didn't notice any change in wood usage. FYI, my aquastat is now set at 170* off, 165* on. I could go down to 150* off, 145* on, except after a run of cold days the only baseboard in my house (apartment above the garage) needs a higher water temp to keep up.

I really like your new blower setup by the way, I think you'll have good luck with it.


----------



## ngzcaz

Shame about those welds. I used to do a bit of stick and mig and we used to call them " grapes ". Maybe you should email some pics to Shaver about the welds and the housing. I used to be proud of the stuff I did, just seems there's a lot of workers who just dont care, and worse quality control either not catching it or caring about it. 

I too, had daylight coming in from the chimney but caught it early and Shaver sent me 2 tubes of caulk. My blower wasnt bent but they slopped it with caulk probably to prevent excessive air to the unit. Honestly if they could have shipped me the components at a good price as a kit, I might have given it a shot. But it does work, burns anything and if one likes to mess with stuff, its perfect for an old hod rodder to customize. And apparently there are a lot of them that bought Shavers.. : - )

:greenchainsaw:


----------



## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I've found that setting the on/off differential to 5* instead of 10* seams to give the boiler more "down time". I think it takes too long for the boiler to drop 10* and then it is difficult for the boiler to recover that loss in any decent amount of time. 5* ensures the fire hasn't gone so dormant that it can't be brought back to life in short order, it also seems to smoke less and I didn't notice any change in wood usage. FYI, my aquastat is now set at 170* off, 165* on. I could go down to 150* off, 145* on, except after a run of cold days the only baseboard in my house (apartment above the garage) needs a higher water temp to keep up.
> 
> I really like your new blower setup by the way, I think you'll have good luck with it.



I think you are onto something with the 5 degree differential. Last night I ran with the stock t stat and the modded blower,the differential must be almost 25 degrees on the stock unit.I have it set on 155,which shuts it down at 175,it swells to 180ish,and doesnt kick back on until 145.Way to wide of a differential. I thought something was wrong last night,I went out at 10pm,since my indoor temps were down to 140,I opened the door and the fire was literally out,it took a few minutes with it open for it to light up,as it did,I heard the loud click of the modded fan kick in.Hopefully today ill have time to hook up the Ranco stat. On the Ranco,did you run 2 sets if power wires into the stat,and do the work inside it? The wiring diagram ony wants you to run the 120V into it from the blower,keeping the N out of the Ranco.Im trying to do this as neat as possible,as i need an electrical inspection soon.I would like to run MC or armourflex/Sch 40 plastic on everything as well.


----------



## John D

I forgot to add that when i had the blower off yesterday,I didnt see a UL or CSA decal or approval on the blower at all,also the ground symbol wasnt normal for US electrical appliances. Maybe i missed it,as i was kind of in a hurry to get it together,but I was wondering if anyone else seen a UL decal on theres.What also made me suspicious is the size of the junction box,its too small to be legal IMO.Me adding 2 more wires for the solenoid doesnt help any,but the fit inside ,and are all far enough to keep from touching near the wire nuts. I dont think my inspector will look at the blower itself,or anything that looks to be done at the factory ,probably just the incoming sch 40,and my work tieing it in,but neverthe less I did notice it.


----------



## fletcher0780

you need to run a hot and neutral into the ranco seeing it runs off 120v. I just jumpered off the hot to the "com" on the the relay and then ran a wire off the "NO" to the blower/solenoid. So total you'll have two black wires (one hot, one switched), and one white neutral wire coming from the ranco.

My wiring is less than neat, but I plan on stripping the siding this Spring to do the spray foam insulation. I'm still debating if I'll pull all the plumbing and crap off the back to remove the rear panel, or just tape off the critical components and spray foam over it. I do want to raise my boiler like 8-10" so the door is higher, so I may just bite the bullet and disconnect everything.

Spring to do list:
-Line floor with firebrick
-insulate firebox door with firebrick or ceramic
-raise boiler 8-10"
-remove all siding and spray foam insulate entire unit (including bottom)
-build some type of shed to cover boiler/wood pile
-add 6-8' of insulated chimney pipe
-clean up wiring
-tie in fill line and domestic water coil to hot water tank in garage


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## DLav

Before I bought mine, I was talking to an older gentleman that has one and he suggested that I raise it so that the door was at least waist level. He said, "you might not need it now, but when you get to be my age, your back will thank you for it". I raised mine 12" off the pad and the door level is just above my waist, makes it nice for loading the wood. I'm not real tall 5'6'', so if your going to the trouble of raising it and your taller than me, you might want to go at least 12''. I layed a course of 8'' concrete blocks, then put a 4'' solid concrete block on top, along the back I used a 4'' block on its side to box around the pipes.


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## fletcher0780

Can you put a couple pics of the boiler sitting on the blocks up? I'm 6ft, so maybe I'll go at least 1ft.


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## DLav

fletcher0780 said:


> Can you put a couple pics of the boiler sitting on the blocks up? I'm 6ft, so maybe I'll go at least 1ft.



No problem, I'll try and get some on tomorrow.


----------



## Windwalker7

Dlav,


I really like that blower set up you got there.


Do you happen to have the part# for the selenoid you have?

This looks like a must do mod for the Shaver.

Thanks!


----------



## DLav

Windwalker7 said:


> Dlav,
> 
> 
> I really like that blower set up you got there.
> 
> 
> Do you happen to have the part# for the selenoid you have?
> 
> This looks like a must do mod for the Shaver.
> 
> Thanks!



Thanks Windwalker,
I bought the solenoid at Grainger, their part number is 4X239. Cost was $19 something plus tax.


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## Windwalker7

DLav, 

Are you using the stock thermostat?


----------



## DLav

Windwalker7 said:


> DLav,
> 
> Are you using the stock thermostat?



Right now I'm still using the stock thermostat, but yesterday I ordered the Ranco digital stat that Fletcher is using. I'm hoping to wire the digital stat through a switch to the blower and then put a switch between the original stat and the blower. Both will still be wired to run the blower, I'll keep the original one off unless the digital stat fails, that way I can flip back to the original without rewiring anything while I make repairs.


----------



## John D

I finished the ranco install today.That is one nice aquastat! I really like the adjustability of it.I ended up setting it at 175 for now with a 5 degree differential. Last night the stock tstat with the modded blower turned out ot be a disaster.The differential is just too wide,and it would idle for amlost an hour,then come on too late,by then the water was down to 138-140,and the fire was so cooled off,it took 20 minutes for it to get going and over an hour to recover. It seemed to use more wood than the original setup as well. I think the biggest problem is the stock stat.It seems to have 40 degrees of differential,by the time it recovers.I think that is why i was struggling with the air door flap before the mods, i was using it to get the proper temps,as the blower wouldnt come on until it was too cool. Anyway,I think this stat will fix all that.
When I finished up today,the circ had been off for almost 2 hours,and I had wedged the OWB air door open a little to keep the fire hot,upon restarting,and setting the Ranco,the boiler was 183,I set it for 180 w 5 degree diff,and by the time I restarted it,all 3 zones were calling,and the load was heavy,I noticed temps dropped right past 175 when the blower kicked on,down to 172 before it was able to stop dropping temps,and it held 172 for about 10 minutes,then regained temp very slowly. So the 5 degree differential was almost a 10 by the time the boilers sag is factored in.That is important,and 1/2 the problem i had before the Ranco.
I also tried to neaten up my wiring,I wired the tstat with 14/3 MC,using the red wire as the 120V trigger wire to the blower,to a handy box, where it met the blower wiring,and incoming power,so it looks nice and neat.I also wired in a GFCI outlet as well,so I now have a power outlet out there.The power is on the red wire of the 12/3,so its separate,and i can drop the OWB power,and keep the outlet for working on it.I wanted to keep the stock stat for backup,but the wiring was messy,maybe I'll redo it,and put a 3way switch on it.I honestly do not want to ever have to use it,as it is 1/2 the reason I had trouble keeping the OWB within the proper temp range.
Now I have just 2 things left to do before Im happy for now.I still need ot insulate the chimney,as its still sweating,and i need to put the sensor light on the front of the boiler.
One last thing,I used a metal screw in the pivot hole on the air door flap to keep it open ever so slightly,I think it smokes less,and restarts faster this way.Ill tune it by screwing it in or out as needed.
Thanks again Fletcher,and Dlav for the pics,and tips,the info I learned here is priceless.


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## fletcher0780

John D,

Glad to hear it's working well for you. You won't see the benefits of the damper until the temps outside warm up, but that ranco is worth its weight in gold. Only other think I'd like to add is a 0-10v temperature display to put in the house and pull off the analog output on the ranco, but I'm having no luck finding one.


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## ngzcaz

Have you given thought to simply digging down instead if the landscaping would allow it ? You truly are a hot rodder at heart. Raising it seems like a lot of work.  Stripping the sides and checking the insulation seems like a fairly straightforward operation and worthwhile as well. Let us know if you plan to DIY or have someone come in. Be interesting if quality control did their job on at least this part. And while I think of it, do you plan to switch the pex to the " proper way " which is exactly opposite of what we were instructed to do by the installation manual ? The guy that sells the water treatment packet first clued me in on this before Ben suggested it. Unfortunately I already had mine hooked up and spray foamed in place. Easy to do when first installing, not easy when everythings in place. 

John, glad to hear the t stat is working as it should. I agree the stock t stat doesnt do the job. I havent noticed a 40 degree variance but on mine 25 is certainly possible. 

If anyone has been able to run the water temp display to the front of the boiler please post a pic and tell us how you did it. Excuse my failing memory if its been done. 

And...........................Happy New Year everyone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fletcher0780

I don't want a step, so if I do anything, it will be to raise the unit. I'm going to leave my pex the way it is for now, if I have a problem I'll make the correction in the basement (that's where my pump is anyway). Insulating the bottom of the boiler is my top priority.


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## DLav

Lowering the pad in front of mine wouldn't have worked for me, but certainly there must be a lot of places that it would work. I measured the door this morning and the bottom of the door is 30 inches, slightly lower than my waist. Its the right height for me. I took some pics, but can't seem to get them loaded, I'll try again later.
My mod on the blower worked great when the outside temps were warmer, but now the temperature swing from my stock thermostat is causing me the same headaches John was having. I'm not waiting for my digital stat to come, I'm going to Grainger today and buying another one, they have the same Ranco in stock, now I'll have a spare and can eliminate my stock stat completely. I had it set at 160 and yesterday I went out there and the water was boiling, I lowered it to 150, and it still boiled, I turned it down a bit more and the fire nearly died out. I swear this thing is gonna drive me to drinking,,,,,, 
Fletcher & John, do you have the measurements where you drilled your hole for the dry well? I saw one person drilled it 14'' in and 4" from the side. Are those the measurements you guys used? 

Is anybody using a creosote preventer in their fireboxes? What kind? I bought some at Menards the other day and started using it, don't really know if its working yet.


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## fletcher0780

The ranco should fix your problems. I installed mine to the left of the DHW cover and about 8" in when looking from the back, just make sure it is 12-14" long. The only thing I use to combat creosote is a bag full of crumpled newspaper on a hot bed of coals with the blower running, looks pretty at night with the blue flame shooting out the chimney.


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## projectsho89

fletcher0780 said:


> John D,
> 
> Glad to hear it's working well for you. You won't see the benefits of the damper until the temps outside warm up, but that ranco is worth its weight in gold. Only other think I'd like to add is a 0-10v temperature display to put in the house and pull off the analog output on the ranco, but I'm having no luck finding one.



LCD Digital Panel Meters are less than $20 from www.jameco.com

You'll have to add a couple of precision resistors for scaling and a power supply assuming that the DC output of the Ranco is directly proportional to temperature value. Would need to know how the 0-10 volt output correlates to the measured temperature.

Steve


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## urhstry

_do you plan to switch the pex to the " proper way " which is exactly opposite of what we were instructed to do by the installation manual _

What exactly is the proper way? I think I know what you are talking about but want to make sure.


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## fletcher0780

urhstry said:


> _do you plan to switch the pex to the " proper way " which is exactly opposite of what we were instructed to do by the installation manual _
> 
> What exactly is the proper way? I think I know what you are talking about but want to make sure.



pulling off the bottom instead of the top. I could reverse the pump flow, but then I'd need to move my y strainer.


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## fletcher0780

projectsho89 said:


> LCD Digital Panel Meters are less than $20 from www.jameco.com
> 
> You'll have to add a couple of precision resistors for scaling and a power supply assuming that the DC output of the Ranco is directly proportional to temperature value. Would need to know how the 0-10 volt output correlates to the measured temperature.
> 
> Steve



I was hoping for a simple plug and play display I could just wire into those outputs and put in my living room to monitor temps.


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## projectsho89

fletcher0780 said:


> I was hoping for a simple plug and play display I could just wire into those outputs and put in my living room to monitor temps.



Looked at the Ranco specs.

It ain't going to be that easy since the controller puts out a linear voltage from 0 to 10 volts that is proportional for temperatures from -30F to 220F.

I'm surprised Ranco doesn't offer a remote display. Perhaps they do, I haven't run across one yet

Steve


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## DLav

fletcher0780 said:


> The ranco should fix your problems. I installed mine to the left of the DHW cover and about 8" in when looking from the back, just make sure it is 12-14" long. The only thing I use to combat creosote is a bag full of crumpled newspaper on a hot bed of coals with the blower running, looks pretty at night with the blue flame shooting out the chimney.



I installed the Ranco digital stat today, so hopefully it'll start working better, that stock thermostat was a piece of junk. It was actually pretty easy to install, went better than I thought. 

Here are some pics of the base I put under my OWB.


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## berry5

i had a few questions i reversed my pump flow just put the pump upside down changed the flow done it a week ago no problems cold back in the top hot from the bottom the ranco mod how bad is it? is it a easy hook up like the factory one mine has got a 30degree difference i think it going out one more question both me and my cousin have a shaver 165 the same heat exchanger 18 by 21 his stove is white inside mine has creosote running out the door the power was off the other night for 4 hours mine was boiling, his lost water temps. when my fan runs you can here mine boil his doesnt do that could it be elevation? im on a hill always windy he is in a valley. these 2 stoves are as different as night and day aany body have a clue


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## fletcher0780

The ranco is an easy install. Did you do the vent pipe steam modification? Do you have steaming issues? Are you both burning the same wood? Your cousin might be burning better dryer wood which could account for the white firebox.


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## berry5

yeah i done the steam mod worked great. we are burning the same wood most cut from the same tree i do burn a lot of locus and dog wood the rest is the same. we are going cutting tomorow. the stoves were made 8 months apart he has got the best bed of coals in his they fall out of the stove when he opens the door mine just makes ash hardly any coals i can hear mine boiling from 60 feet away when its under a load it will get to thumping really loud.


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## fletcher0780

is your blower door open more than his?


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## modn

It sure sounds like he has a bigger load on his which makes his work more rather than idle.....bigger house or less efficient house? How much wood is he going through compared to you. What kind of burning time does he have compared to you?


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## Windwalker7

Any pics of the Ranco install?


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## Windwalker7

Let's see if I got this right?


For the Ranco install, I drill a hole and insert a piece of copper tubing caped at the end. I guess this is my dry well.


I drill a hole approx. 8" in and to the left of the DHW cover plate. The capped copper tubing should be about 13" long. 


How do you seal this copper tubing in place, assuming I'm right so far?


The tenp probe from the Ranco goes into this dry well?


Any one consider making a dry well type cap for the other outlet pipe that is not in use? Just an idea.


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## fletcher0780

Windwalker7 said:


> Any pics of the Ranco install?



Not a great picture, but here's mine. The temp probe is attached via an 8ft wire. Originally I used the bolt that held the original aquastat in place to hold the probe against the water jacket, but the reading lagged and was erratic. The probe really needs to be in a well. I borrowed another members idea and use a 1/4" piece of 14" long copper capped on one end, and flared at the other. Drilled a hole in the top of the water jacket and slid the "well" and probe in until the flare butted against the jacket. I then sealed everything up with hi-temp silicone. The thing is very very accurate and the 5* temp differential makes a huge difference.



Windwalker7 said:


> Any one consider making a dry well type cap for the other outlet pipe that is not in use? Just an idea.


I tried that and got a 15* temp difference, it really needs to be in the jacket far 








On another subject, is anyone having problems with ash/coals building up and choking out the bottom of the chimney so your shaver can't breathe?


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## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> On another subject, is anyone having problems with ash/coals building up and choking out the bottom of the chimney so your shaver can't breathe?



Funny you said that,today i noticed im getting quite a bit of coals/ashes in the back,and i dont burn back there anymore,since i have been keeping the fire up front.I did empty some ashes out today.I made a ton of ashes on christmas day,I threw an entire bag of wrapping paper in the OWB,and of course it burned very,very slow,and made a ton of ashes.
I did the same install on the Ranco,I used a 1 ft long copper tube,and its very accurate as well.Ill try to get pics once it warms up a little,right now i cant even open my back door,the R19 is frozen to the inside of the door,thanks to the dripping roof.


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## ngzcaz

Regarding the t stat, I also put in an inexpensive 1 inch or so probe that has the temp shown on the front into the pump area so this should be very accurate. This is the water going directly from the OWB into the house. This reading can differ greatly from the stock t stat. I think part of the problem is that different areas of the holding tank water differ in their temperature so while it may be hot as heck on the top the bottom may be way off. What you guys may have hit on is the " sweet spot " so to speak of the water jacket. The stock stat simply relies on heat transfer thru whatever thickness the metal happens to be. ( Did anyone else have trouble with the stock giant screws trying to push the back flush with the metal ? ) I ended up shimming one side and the screw with the other to get it to lie flush.. dumb setup.

Regarding ash and coals, I have taken 2 small childs flat snow shovels about 2 inches high so far. I think a lot of mine are going up the stack. Unfortunately, if the ashes are going there a lot of heat is going up as well. Thats one of the reasons you guys have me shopping for a draft blower that closes completely when the unit isnt calling for heat. Mine just keeps chugging away and while it may not reduce wood consumption, it probably wouldnt adversely affect it either. I may see a much quicker recovery rate since my draft door is only open 1/4 way since I started it. Obviously the draft blower cant fire it as quickly when its restricting the air flow to the unit.

It would be interesting if anyone actually kept tract on lets say a 20 degree day how often the unit is firing and what the time interval is between firings, and of course how long the firings last until it shuts off.


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## Windwalker7

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

In regards to ash build up, I noticed a lot of build up in this area also. I usually rake as much of it as I can over the grate. The ash falls through and the bigger coals start to glow if the blower is on.

It really gets glowing after about a minute, even has blue flames coming off of it. I just throw some full rounds on top and close the door.


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## Windwalker7

John D said:


> Funny you said that,today i noticed im getting quite a bit of coals/ashes in the back,and i dont burn back there anymore,since i have been keeping the fire up front.I did empty some ashes out today.I made a ton of ashes on christmas day,I threw an entire bag of wrapping paper in the OWB,and of course it burned very,very slow,and made a ton of ashes.
> I did the same install on the Ranco,I used a 1 ft long copper tube,and its very accurate as well.Ill try to get pics once it warms up a little,right now i cant even open my back door,the R19 is frozen to the inside of the door,thanks to the dripping roof.




Are you sure you got that DHW cover plate sealed all the way around. I'm even wondering if your flue has a crack in the weld where it goes into the water jacket.


Sounds like you got a lot of condensation in there. There has to be something that isn't sealed up letting all that moisture in there from the water jacket.


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## fletcher0780

I actually had so much ash in my 290 that when I shut the door after loading the blower would force ash out the chimney for a second. After a few minutes of having the door shut, the fire would choke itself out and when I opened the door again I got a large puff of smoke followed by a fireball  The problem is a bit worse with the larger Shavers I imagine because the firebox is so deep. I need a longer handle on my hoe so I can reach back there all the way and clear the ashes from the chimney. Like John (and the rest of you I'm sure) I had lots of Christmas trash to dispose of, and I even went one step further and cleaned of my fridge and about 2 months of junk mail/catalogs. The ash hid from me in the back of the boiler until I really needed the heat when the temps dropped to 0* last night. In the future I'll need to pay better attention to this.

Regarding the Ranco, I sent an email to the distributor to find out if they could recommend a remote temp display that works with their unit. I'd really like one that had low/high temperature alarms that would tell me when I need to reload the boiler, or if I was getting close to boiling the water. 

I'd like to thank everyone who's participating in this thread, I think if we keep working together we'll all be very happy with the performance of these heavy duty (but not refined) boilers. There's another site, with a forum dedicated to Shaver boilers that I'd like to share (some of you may already visit that site). It doesn't get a lot of traffic, but is a great place for us to archive our ideas and experiences as they're not so likely to get lost there. http://**************************/forum/index.php?board=18.0


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## trshmn

I also have the build up in the rear, but rake them to the front and it really seems to be working great, just refill with wood and temps always stay up, burning split cherry, oak, hickory, little bit of maple and pine, also some small rounds of the hard woods, still have all stock parts on but might wait till summer to make all the mods talked about on here, alot of great ideas that shaver should have already had, I've seen on here that some were saying they were burning junk half rotten stuff and doing fine, so I tried today to put 8-10" rounds of pine that were down for 6-8 months, they were wet and I had the normal hot bed of coals going, did'nt take long for the temp in house and garage to drop, went up to owb and good bed of coals were about gone, took the wet rounds out and refilled with my normal split wood and almost back to normal now. regarding the stock t-stat I did'nt use the big bolt I put some hi-temp silicone around the outside edge of it and stuck it on, did'nt put it on the sensor part of it , been holding great, but I agree there is no way you can get accurate temps out of that, that's why change is coming!!!!


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## fletcher0780

trshmn said:


> I've seen on here that some were saying they were burning junk half rotten stuff and doing fine, so I tried today to put 8-10" rounds of pine that were down for 6-8 months, they were wet and I had the normal hot bed of coals going, did'nt take long for the temp in house and garage to drop, went up to owb and good bed of coals were about gone, took the wet rounds out and refilled with my normal split wood and almost back to normal now.



I think the junk wood burning needs to be limited to mild days (above freezing). I've burnt some nasty soggy crappy pine, just to dispose of it, but it was on a 40* day so I didn't notice any issues.


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## John D

Windwalker7 said:


> Are you sure you got that DHW cover plate sealed all the way around. I'm even wondering if your flue has a crack in the weld where it goes into the water jacket.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you got a lot of condensation in there. There has to be something that isn't sealed up letting all that moisture in there from the water jacket.



My cover is sealed perfectly,the insulation is dry under the solarguard.There is no crack in my flue,its the heat from the chimney.The underside of the roof is soaked with heat from the single wall chimney.Im still baffled by it,as the only place single wall is acceptable is outside a structure,not inside.I know mine isnt the only one,i went to see my cousins big Shaver 340 running the other day,it wasnt even up 24hrs,and the entire roof was wet underneath like mine.He iso nly loading it 1/2 full of wood,and in the center.The 340 is huge,about 18" longer than my 250.I feel bad for him,as his looks like it was put together by the same guy who welded my blower flange.His door also doesn't shut nearly as good as mine.I may get some pictures,you wont beleive how poor his siding was installed,and trimmed,and his rear door is so racked you need to shut it and open it with a prybar.


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## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I think the junk wood burning needs to be limited to mild days (above freezing). I've burnt some nasty soggy crappy pine, just to dispose of it, but it was on a 40* day so I didn't notice any issues.



I agree with this,or at the minimum,set it on top of the seasoned hardwood.Even then,I find the crappy stuff takes 2 days to fully burn up sometimes.I dont use the rear of my 250,so any unburned crap i just push to the back,and it slowly burns up.I also find my boiler does so much better on cold days,it doesnt like to idle,and runs much better with something to df course this burns more wood,but it seems to operate much better. 
Its been 2 full days since the damper mod,and it is hard to tell if its reducing wood usagem,but i think its actually burning more wood this way,as ive only got 2 positions,idle(which is inefficient,as it doesnt make enough heat to maintain temps),and wide open which is inefficient,and my heat goes up the chimney.before i had the damper cracked 3/4 open as the "idle" position,and it ran at very steady temps this way,with a big load the fan would come on,and it ran a little harder.This is just my guess,but i think a nice slow steady burn would use more of the woods energy than full idle smoldering.So i think i may try oening it a touch,just to give me more time between cycles,but not enough to coause steaming on warm days.i know this will take a few days of experimentation.


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## DLav

I installed the Ranco stat yesterday and set it at 165 with a 5 degree differential, last night when I checked it was 179, blower not running. Tonight it was 181 with the blower off. Shouldn't it be closer to 170 ish?? Also seems to be using alot of wood, but it is in the teens and the winds been blowing like crazy. I don't know how long the blower had been off when I checked it. But temp swing was the reason I got away from the old stock stat.

You guys that have the Ranco stats, are they holding pretty close to your set point? Maybe I have another problem.......geeeeez I hope not.


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## DLav

John D said:


> I agree with this,or at the minimum,set it on top of the seasoned hardwood.Even then,I find the crappy stuff takes 2 days to fully burn up sometimes.I dont use the rear of my 250,so any unburned crap i just push to the back,and it slowly burns up.I also find my boiler does so much better on cold days,it doesnt like to idle,and runs much better with something to df course this burns more wood,but it seems to operate much better.
> Its been 2 full days since the damper mod,and it is hard to tell if its reducing wood usagem,but i think its actually burning more wood this way,as ive only got 2 positions,idle(which is inefficient,as it doesnt make enough heat to maintain temps),and wide open which is inefficient,and my heat goes up the chimney.before i had the damper cracked 3/4 open as the "idle" position,and it ran at very steady temps this way,with a big load the fan would come on,and it ran a little harder.This is just my guess,but i think a nice slow steady burn would use more of the woods energy than full idle smoldering.So i think i may try oening it a touch,just to give me more time between cycles,but not enough to coause steaming on warm days.i know this will take a few days of experimentation.




I'm kinda thinking the same thing John. When it was warm the blower mod seemed like the cat's a55 but now that its cold, I'm wondering about it. I'm using more wood now than I was. I'm thinking about changing the linkage to something adjustable and instead of being wide open, only going half or 3/4. And adding the screw like you suggested before so that it has a little air when idling. Let me know how it goes.


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## fletcher0780

DLav said:


> I installed the Ranco stat yesterday and set it at 165 with a 5 degree differential, last night when I checked it was 179, blower not running. Tonight it was 181 with the blower off. Shouldn't it be closer to 170 ish?? Also seems to be using alot of wood, but it is in the teens and the winds been blowing like crazy. I don't know how long the blower had been off when I checked it. But temp swing was the reason I got away from the old stock stat.
> 
> You guys that have the Ranco stats, are they holding pretty close to your set point? Maybe I have another problem.......geeeeez I hope not.



Mine stays very close to the set points, but I have quite a heating load and cheap underground pipe. The other day it was almost 60* and my boiler got up to 180* with the damper shut. on the 60* days in the fall before the damper I'd be at 210* and above, so I'll take 180*  My friend has a central boiler and his will go up to 190+ with the damper shut. I think a 15* overshoot is acceptable when considering we're trying to regulate wood burning. One thing you can try is to limit the amount your door opens with the damper activated.

By the way, I'd be ecstatic if I could get 181* on a day in the teens.


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## blakey

I will admit that I haven't read the whole thread but I was wondering how much the Shaver units are selling for? Is it that much of a savings over other brands? You guys don't seem too upset about having to do all this work to get them to run properly. You shouldn't have to babysit these things, just load wood and go on with your life. Not trying to be a jerk, I just can't believe the issues you guys have to deal with that should have been part of the basic design.


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## Windwalker7

blakey said:


> I will admit that I haven't read the whole thread but I was wondering how much the Shaver units are selling for? Is it that much of a savings over other brands? You guys don't seem too upset about having to do all this work to get them to run properly. You shouldn't have to babysit these things, just load wood and go on with your life. Not trying to be a jerk, I just can't believe the issues you guys have to deal with that should have been part of the basic design.






Yes, they are about $1000-$1500 cheaper than other brands. But they have the thickest fire box of any.


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## fletcher0780

blakey said:


> I will admit that I haven't read the whole thread but I was wondering how much the Shaver units are selling for? Is it that much of a savings over other brands? You guys don't seem too upset about having to do all this work to get them to run properly. You shouldn't have to babysit these things, just load wood and go on with your life. Not trying to be a jerk, I just can't believe the issues you guys have to deal with that should have been part of the basic design.



I saved about $1500 compared to a CB, but by the time I'm done that will be closer to $1000. To be honest, I enjoy tinkering with it, but I see your point.


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## Windwalker7

The Shaver 165, heats about 4000 square ft., costs about $4700 if you wanted to know. Compare that price to any other brand that heats equal square footage.


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## fletcher0780

Windwalker7 said:


> The Shaver 165, heats about 4000 square ft., costs about $4700 if you wanted to know. Compare that price to any other brand that heats equal square footage.



And that price is after the $500 increase that occurred in May 08. I got my 290 with large door for $5100


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## blakey

I guess I wouldn't have the patience for it. I load wood and go to work, I don't think my wife has checked it at all this winter on her days off. Sounds like it should be a great unit once you get the bugs worked out. Shaver should get their act together.


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## DLav

Windwalker7 said:


> Yes, they are about $1000-$1500 cheaper than other brands. But they have the thickest fire box of any.



I don't want to bum everybody out, and I don't know anything about these boilers, but I just stumbled on to an OWB built by ACME Furnace in Macon Mo. and they advertise a 235 gal with a 3/8 firebox for $4500, they look pretty decent in the pics. But then again so does the Shaver.


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## DLav

blakey said:


> I will admit that I haven't read the whole thread but I was wondering how much the Shaver units are selling for? Is it that much of a savings over other brands? You guys don't seem too upset about having to do all this work to get them to run properly. You shouldn't have to babysit these things, just load wood and go on with your life. Not trying to be a jerk, I just can't believe the issues you guys have to deal with that should have been part of the basic design.




At some point I'm going to cut Shaver off the front door and weld my name on it.


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## blakey

DLav said:


> I don't want to bum everybody out, and I don't know anything about these boilers, but I just stumbled on to an OWB built by ACME Furnace in Macon Mo. and they advertise a 235 gal with a 3/8 firebox for $4500, they look pretty decent in the pics. But then again so does the Shaver.



Does it have picture of Wylie Coyote on it? Sorry I couldn't resist. Is that their real name?


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## John D

DLav said:


> I'm kinda thinking the same thing John. When it was warm the blower mod seemed like the cat's a55 but now that its cold, I'm wondering about it. I'm using more wood now than I was. I'm thinking about changing the linkage to something adjustable and instead of being wide open, only going half or 3/4. And adding the screw like you suggested before so that it has a little air when idling. Let me know how it goes.



As you know its been brutally cold the last few days,we had 7-8 degrees last night,with 40-50 mph wind gusts,absolutley brutal conditions,so its hard to tell,but i really think my wood useage increased with the damper mod,so im going to keep opening it slightly.Although I'm happy that I went 11 hrs last night,and still had some wood left,from a full front load only.I hope to get it around the same as 1/4 open in a stock setup,then when the blower comes on ill have full air flow capablity.Either way,im glad I did the blower mod.
On the Ranco, mine holds excellent,its set at 177 now,with a 5 degree diff. I find that when it shuts down it flares to 178 at the most,and upon firing up it drops 2 degrees past 172 down to 170.It holds temps dead on. I think that running the OWB circulator full time helps keep OWB temps stable as well,and I know Fletcher is cycling his with is indoor circs.I feel the little electricity increase is offset by keeping the indoor boiler hot,and keeping the OWB water circulation on,keeping firebox temps stable.Also running it full time ties the boilers together full time,making temp spikes less severe and noticeable as your spikes are absorbed by the plumbing and indoor boiler.I have no choice other than to run antifreeze as 30 ft of my piping is up the side of my house and thru my attic.I also run my indoor loop circ full time on low,its a 3 speed grundfos.


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## John D

DLav said:


> At some point I'm going to cut Shaver off the front door and weld my name on it.



I feel the same way.I will build my own next time,without a doubt. My friends all have central boilers,and they have basically set it on the pad,and forgot about it.It is ready to work as delivered. My girlfreind commented about how its a good thing Im handy,as shes never seen a brand new product that cost that much need so much extra work just to function as it should have from day one.


----------



## DLav

blakey said:


> Does it have picture of Wylie Coyote on it? Sorry I couldn't resist. Is that their real name?



 Good stuff, I thought the same thing when I read the name. Ummmm didn't see Wylie or the Roadrunner on it, but who knows. I stumbled on to it on EBAY.


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## DLav

John D said:


> As you know its been brutally cold the last few days,we had 7-8 degrees last night,with 40-50 mph wind gusts,absolutley brutal conditions,so its hard to tell,but i really think my wood useage increased with the damper mod,so im going to keep opening it slightly.Although I'm happy that I went 11 hrs last night,and still had some wood left,from a full front load only.I hope to get it around the same as 1/4 open in a stock setup,then when the blower comes on ill have full air flow capablity.Either way,im glad I did the blower mod.



I'm glad I did it, what I meant was I'm not sure its tuned as good as it could be. I don't know why its spiking so high after the blower shuts off. 

Glad I did the Ranco mod too, its maintaining temps more consistent now and hasn't boiled over. It's alot drier in the back of the unit with the DHW sealed, I haven't done the steam vent mod yet, I haven't used much water since I sealed the DHW cover. Mine sits level, but the vent has a slight upward angle, that may help.

My pump is running on demand, not sure if this is ideal or not. Shaver said to do it that way, I have a forced air furnace in the house. The pump itself doesn't use squat for electricity. Its a 3 speed Armstrong that came with it.


----------



## John D

DLav said:


> I'm glad I did it, what I meant was I'm not sure its tuned as good as it could be. I don't know why its spiking so high after the blower shuts off.
> 
> Glad I did the Ranco mod too, its maintaining temps more consistent now and hasn't boiled over. It's alot drier in the back of the unit with the DHW sealed, I haven't done the steam vent mod yet, I haven't used much water since I sealed the DHW cover. Mine sits level, but the vent has a slight upward angle, that may help.
> 
> My pump is running on demand, not sure if this is ideal or not. Shaver said to do it that way, I have a forced air furnace in the house. The pump itself doesn't use squat for electricity. Its a 3 speed Armstrong that came with it.



Why dont you try rewiring the pump to run full time for a few days,and see if that helps reduce the spiking.Like you said it doesnt use much for electric,give it a shot. Also,did you seal your blower to flange area,you seen the pic if mine,it was horrible. It seems you may have air getting in your boiler,from you posting you only needed your air door 1/4 open before, I'd do some checks to see if one of your doors is leaking ,or somehow you've got another place for the fire to get air from.When my door shuts,the temp goes up 1 degree usually,then the fire literally goes out,and it doesnt move up at all after that.


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## ngzcaz

I think John is right on the money by suggesting the pump runs 24/7. Seems impossible to maintain a steady water temp without movement of the water all the time. Nicest part is that its a n/c suggestion.

No one so far has responded whether these new draft motors and t stats are having a positive or negative effect on wood consumption. This question was posed a few days ago. Probably because only a few so far have done so. I can see it going either way or a wash... if I could get a 10 to 15 degree swing I'd be satisfied with the stock unit.

It seems the most important thing to accomplish is to maintain a steady temp and have it come on and off as its supposed to. I havent seen a post yet that extolls the virtue of the stock thermostat. To that end, what kind of t stats are on the other units and where are they placed ? 

opcorn:


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## fletcher0780

Ben gave me a price of $165 for an actual ash drawer, not sure if that would be easier for any of you.

I've been mixing a bit of coal in lately and found that without the shaker grate and firebrick I'm having some issues. The coal seems to burn awesome, but then it melts into a big slab and blocks of air coming from under the grate, chocking the fire out (usually after a few days). I've also noticed if you let the ashes or coals build up from burning just wood, you can also choke out the air. Has anyone considered a type of bypass pipe that would carry air from the ash pan up above the fire? Would this create a secondary burn chamber? I have found that if I rake all the coals around and use the corner of the hoe to dig a little hole above the grate, then load the wood, I get a very hot blue "blow torch" like flame shooting up through the floor to ignite the wood on top. This is why you can burn almost anything in the boiler.

Regarding wood consumption and the ranco/damper mod, I can't tell if I'm using more or less, but I no longer have boiling problems or a 30* shift in water temperature. I think the other mods I have planned will lower my wood use and compliment these mods. I can tell you that the older woodmaster and hardy boilers use a manual 2 stage (on/off) honeywell probe type aquastat to control their damper/blowers. http://www.patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/8062 Cb uses this one http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=125&Product_ID=289&sPageName=Ordering 
which is pretty cool because it's LED and you can mount it in a box on the outside of your boiler, but need to buy the probe separate and costs more than the Ranco. I have heard of Hardy owners ditching their factory aquastat and installing a ranco to gain the digital control and temperature readout.


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## ngzcaz

I'm chuckling at the $ 165 for the true ash pan. If someone has one I'd like an evaluation of same. The " ash pan " cant be any higher than opening of the door. Unfortunately the depth of the ash BIN :censored: is significantly deeper which means even if you manage to get it out you'll be taking a much smaller load than the actual capacity of the pan. How one is able to angle the pan and drag it up the lip remains to be seen. Short and sweet the original design is a screw up. Why the lip is even there is beyond my reasoning. If it was flat I wouldnt bother saying anything about it because I'd just make up my own pan but as it is they really handcuffed you.

The bypass you speak of might work well in conjunction with the airflow from the bottom but thats not my area of knowledge. Fires normally like to burn from the bottom up although I think CB's have a side air flow to theirs. I think Crown Royal have a dual setup, flow from the bottom and top. And all are selling well so they all work. The REAL interesting part to me would be an efficiency test for all the OWB's ( not the new generation of gassifiers ) and see what the differences are.

The old Surdiac coal stoves had a raker much like the poker we got with the Shavers, idea was to rake the burnt coals and have them fall to the bottom. Seemed to work fine for a friend of mine but somehow seemed like extra work and potential problems especially with bad coal.


:greenchainsaw:


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## mistergreentree

Here's my version of the steam fix...a "t" and cap. I wanted to be able to drain the water down so I can add chemicals through the pipe if I ever needed to without having to take off the steam fix each time. I used a funnel with tube attached and stick it in to the water jacket....works good. Thanks for all the ideas guys!


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## ngzcaz

Interesting.. I'm guessing you fill it about halfway up and then you can peer in from the top. Thats a great idea now if anyone knows where to get clear pipe and a T I'll put it on tomorrow.

This thread is a bit long but here's a item for thought. Another thread seems to a have lot of guys w/excess ashes at this time of the year ( include me ) Raking to the front is ok but I think I'm going to find a warm day ( April ?  ) and do a much better job. Much of the ash is in the rear making the wood tilt upward when I load it. There's also considerable ash on the sides. Not bad in the middle where the grates ( when I throw them in they kind of knock the rest of the ash in the pan ) 

Next year I'm going to cut my wood only slightly longer than the grates so the rear should be ok for quite some time. On the sides I'm thinking of making a truly rounded steel piece ( one for each side ) so it forces the ashes to fall in the grates. As it is now the bottom is mostly flat. Apparently at least one manufacturer has already incorporated this in the design. It would hold slightly less wood on the sides but shouldnt be enough be make a big difference. This would be free standing so removal would be easy if necessary. I certainly dont want this to be a CB type stove when I'm getting a faceful of ashes when removing with a shovel on a lit fire...:censored:


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## John D

I wanted to post an update here,since I've been running the Ranco aquastat and blower mod over a week now.I highly recommend both of them together.My Shaver is like a different beast with these 2 mods.It holds temperature perfectly,I have the temp set at 179,and a 5 degree differential.I can go slightly lower,but my hot water recovery is affected at certain times.It does burn a little less wood at 175 on 170 off,thats the lowest it performs well at.I haven't had a minutes problems since the mods,and the nice thing is that with the blower running and the damper door fully open now,it easily burns the wood right down without falling behind with the last few logs.Also recovery is very fast now,where as before it could have taken hours to recover if all the zones were calling.
A big thank you to Fletcher and Dlav for them both taking the time to help by showing there mods,posting pics,and offering help.
This summer I am going to strip the OWB and get it spray foam insulated,top to bottom,and possibly build a better fully insulated door for it.I think those 2 changes will save me a lot of wood,and make the OWB perform better.I am burning a lot of seasoned Locust,and I gotta say this OWB burns cleaner than my neighbors indoor stoves if the wood is totally dry. The first pic is with blower on today,modded blower door ,2nd with it idling with modded damper closed. You can see my makeshift temporary wood shed i built for $40.I got what i think is about 3+ cord of wood in there.Its 24ft long,6 ft wide,and has 2 rows of 30-36" long logs about 5-6ft high.I'm not good at estimating wood volume,but its 3 cord minimum,could be over 4.


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## blakey

Good job, persistance pays off. Now you can weld your name on the front of it.


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## John D

blakey said:


> Good job, persistance pays off. Now you can weld your name on the front of it.



I knew I should have just built one myself,but i thought a "proven unit with a thick firebox" would be better. By the time im done I may just do that,wouldnt be hard to waterjet it out on my brothers flowjet either.


----------



## November Wolf

John D said:


> I wanted to post an update here,since I've been running the Ranco aquastat and blower mod over a week now.I highly recommend both of them together.My Shaver is like a different beast with these 2 mods.It holds temperature perfectly,I have the temp set at 179,and a 5 degree differential.I can go slightly lower,but my hot water recovery is affected at certain times.It does burn a little less wood at 175 on 170 off,thats the lowest it performs well at.I haven't had a minutes problems since the mods,and the nice thing is that with the blower running and the damper door fully open now,it easily burns the wood right down without falling behind with the last few logs.Also recovery is very fast now,where as before it could have taken hours to recover if all the zones were calling.
> A big thank you to Fletcher and Dlav for them both taking the time to help by showing there mods,posting pics,and offering help.
> This summer I am going to strip the OWB and get it spray foam insulated,top to bottom,and possibly build a better fully insulated door for it.I think those 2 changes will save me a lot of wood,and make the OWB perform better.I am burning a lot of seasoned Locust,and I gotta say this OWB burns cleaner than my neighbors indoor stoves if the wood is totally dry. The first pic is with blower on today,modded blower door ,2nd with it idling with modded damper closed. You can see my makeshift temporary wood shed i built for $40.I got what i think is about 3+ cord of wood in there.Its 24ft long,6 ft wide,and has 2 rows of 30-36" long logs about 5-6ft high.I'm not good at estimating wood volume,but its 3 cord minimum,could be over 4.



Nice Job! I bet you will see a big difference when you spray foam everything. I am guessing you have about 5 cord of wood with the dimentions you gave.
That is a nice shed for $40. I need to build me one this summer.


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## John D

I did a little more gathering today,I have been letting the OWB run real low on wood,lower than I was,it seems to use less wood,the less I put in,the less it eats.Heres the pics from today in another thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1322640&posted=1#post1322640


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## berry5

i did the ranco mod that made a world of difference with my stove the thermostat on the stove was set a 150 calling for heat i did the mod droped the probe in the drywell was 173 it wasnt no wonder i was boiiling sometimes the creostote is almost gone i am going to move the controller to my bed room so i can control it from in side the house that is a sweet mod thanks


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## fletcher0780

I'm still waiting for ranco to respond with a recommendation for a remote temp monitor that can read the 0-10v output. I guess a simple way would be to use an analog volt gauge and create a new gauge face converting the volt reading to degrees, but I'd rather have LED, or even LCD with an alarm. It's been my experience with the Shaver that it is very important to keep the ashes from building up in the firebox or they do one of two things: Choke out the blower air from below the grate, or choke out the gases/smoke from exiting the chimney. Either of these will hinder your ability to gain water temperature. It seems that allowing the wood to burn to coals before reloading and raking the coals over the grate separating the ashes from the coals. I now have my ranco set to 175 off 170 on, which is needed during the sub 25* days. Over 25* I can do 155 of 150 on.


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## ShaverFurnace

*Firebox temperature*



mistergreentree said:


> Not making any promises......but am giving it thought as are others that I've asked.
> 
> I'm looking into ceramic fiber products...heat/fire resistant to 2300-2600*F
> It can be purchased in sheet form or blanket form. Seems like the R value is around 3 per inch of thickness.
> 
> Any idea what temp the OWB fire would typically reach...I'm waiting on my infrared thermometer to arrive so I'm not sure what the range would be.



I have not seen any temperatures above 2000F in a firebox. Typical temperature is 7-800F and greater - but there are a lot of variables.

BTW, we don't insulate the door because that would require boxing it in. Boxing in an 18" square door would require 6 feet of metal around it. That is 6 feet of metal transferring heat to the outside plate - defeating the purpose.

If something can be used to stuff between the plates, that would be excellent.


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## fletcher0780

ShaverFurnace said:


> I have not seen any temperatures above 2000F in a firebox. Typical temperature is 7-800F and greater - but there are a lot of variables.
> 
> BTW, we don't insulate the door because that would require boxing it in. Boxing in an 18" square door would require 6 feet of metal around it. That is 6 feet of metal transferring heat to the outside plate - defeating the purpose.
> 
> If something can be used to stuff between the plates, that would be excellent.



I've had unfaced fiberglass stuffed between mine for a month and it is holding up well. Now I just need to insulate to bottom of the water jacket (which I was led to believe was already insulated) and add better insulation around the entire unit. The Ranco digital aquastat and solenoid controlled damper door are working well though.

Does anyone else think these images indicates insulation below the water jacket, or am I interpreting them incorrectly:


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## November Wolf

That definitely looks likes insulation all around the fire box. Misrepresentation of the product if you ask me.


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## Dan-o

*Sure looks like it.*

Hey Fletcher, I thought the same thing when I bought it that it was insulated, but that was one thing I had on my check list to ask before I bought it. Shaver said you are welcome to insulate it yourself, but if we insulated it, it would tear off when we move the unit and deliver it.

I laid r-17 foil insulation down when the boiler was delivered and cut off the excess when the unit was in place. That is all I have done so far.

Glad to hear your blower mod is working good. I will do mine in the spring, along with insulating it better. My Thermostat is working great so far. I need to insulate the 99 year old house better next year too. On those 0 degree days we had in December I had to put wood on every 4-5 hours to keep up with the drafty house. Still nicer than paying the propane man though.


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## fletcher0780

I guess I assumed they would do the same thing they did on the back panel to hold the insulation in and just attach some of that siding. I'm not looking forward to disconnecting everything to lift it up and insulate, but I think it will work much better. I'm also going to raise it by 10-12" so I don't have to bend over so much when loading it. I think keeping the center of the door at waist height is ideal.


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## ngzcaz

Well.. there's little doubt that they show insulation completely encompassing the boiler. Since there's about 1/2 to an inch from the bottom of the sheet metal to the concrete no one's going to see the lack of insulation unless they rip off some sheet metal. Even for Shaver, thats a surprise and not a welcome one. 

Maybe a free roll of solarguard for all affected Shaver owners is in order along with an apology ?? I don't think they want to send people around to every owner and install insulation on the bottom of the boiler.. Then again, I certainly don't mind...

Where's Ben ??

:agree2:


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## John D

Fletcher,like you I too think the pictures clearly show a layer of insulation under the unit as well as up the sides and on top.I was losing a huge about heat from under my boiler,esp with mine raised up off the ground. I had to lay on th ground and insulate it thru the small opening in the front i had access thru.I havent insulated the door yet,but I will do it this week,hopefully.

Shaverfurnace,I'm not going to sugarcoat it,your product is highly lacking in insulation,and fit and finish.A sad dissapointment considering the fact that Shavers been around so long,and the amount of information on Shavers site,and various others,telling how well insulated the Shaver is.I feel misled by the advertisement,and information on the site,and sites of dealers.I am baffeld that they ship the OWB with nothing but air between the hot watertank,and the cold cement ground under it.As for the door, it's too small,and the air gap may help,but the door would run much cooler if it were insulated from day one,how much would it cost for an 18x18 1000 degree hi temp if you bought in quantity?Maybe $10 dollars? I'd rather they left off the circulator and POS light it comes with,and skip the 50ft 1/2 " copper coil laying in the back,mine was kinked anyway.Take that money and insulate it the way it should be.BTW trying to run the hot water demands of a 2 fam home thru 50ft of 1/2" copper is like breathing thru a straw after running a marathon.1/2" doesn't even meet building code here,its only good for 4 water taps.I have a 2 fam home w 3 showers,2 dishwashers,2 washers,7 sinks.It needs 3/4" to meet code,so I couldnt use it if i wanted too,I wish I'd known that it was only 1/2" would have deleted it.On the door size we got 2 340s,a 68" long firebox,and 8000sq ft capacity,and only an 18" door,trying to fill it evenly is a job in itself. 
One last thing,your aquastat is a joke,it too doesnt meet UL specifications,and had to be ditched,it doesnt have a proper cover,(doesnt have any cover)and conduit sleeve.Its also nice to watch water sweat drip off the inside of the roof onto it and down the wires.


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## ngzcaz

John, John......................................tell them how you REALLY feel...


 :agree2:   oke:


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## fletcher0780

Well, I see Ben is reading this thread now, perhaps he'll respond.


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## ShaverFurnace

*Insulation*



fletcher0780 said:


> Does anyone else think these images indicates insulation below the water jacket, or am I interpreting them incorrectly:



We agree and all the images were changed on the websites. However, nowhere does the text say it is insulated on the bottom.

These came from a dealer who had them drawn up and no one noticed the error.

We added information to the manual that says to lay a blanket of insulation down when the furnace is set is place, if desired.

We have not insulated the bottom in 36 years and there has never been a complaint (before now) or a problem with heat loss.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. As I wrote elsewhere, do not use spray foam insulation.

Spray foam is not a good idea as it will hold moisture in and cause corrosion. Also most foam is flammable so any repairs necessary at any time in the future, would require removal of all the foam!


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## pipe76

Central Boiler uses spray foam and seems to work out fine, and i don't see a 14 page "Central boiler" Improvement forum on here either... tell you something? 

Also Shaver completely mislead people by showing insulation on the bottom of the unit, never mind the false R value claims, I think Shaver should make this right to the customers that invested in their boilers.


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## John D

pipe76 said:


> Central Boiler uses spray foam and seems to work out fine, and i don't see a 14 page "Central boiler" Improvement forum on here either... tell you something?



Exactly what I was thinking. In all honesty I dont have a problem with Shaver using fiberglass bats or solarguard,if it is installed correctly,and tightly to the waterjacket,it will work as designed.I know 5 ppl with Central boilers,all are very happy with there units,and all run them at 180 degrees easily.Try that with a Shaver,you will need to load a lot of wood,since most of your heat goes up the chimney and heating the outside via poor insulation.

Ben,if Shaver was really worried about trapping moisture,they wouldn't leave the chimney bare inside the roof,so it warms the underside of the roof,creating condesation,and filling the bottom of the roof with water droplets,which then drip on the insulation,and electrical components in the back.Insulation isnt supposed to get wet,again we are talking about a 5" round,and 1 foot long section of pipe,what can it cost to insulate it?$25.00?Even a few wraps of header wrap would work wonders.Like I said,let us get a circulator,and light,insulate the thing right from day one,so the insulation,circulator and blower dont get ruined.You wonder why the blowers are failing? THIS is why,they are getting wet,and it isn't from rain or snow,its from poor design/insulation.We have 3 Shavers up and running now,and they all do this,all 3 of them,mine has gotten better as the cresote layer builds up inside the pipe,its acting as an insulator.All my additional insulation I put in the back is ruined from sweating though.


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## ShaverFurnace

*Shaver*



John D said:


> Fletcher,like you I too think the pictures clearly show a layer of insulation under the unit as well as up the sides and on top.I was losing a huge about heat from under my boiler,esp with mine raised up off the ground. I had to lay on th ground and insulate it thru the small opening in the front i had access thru.I havent insulated the door yet,but I will do it this week,hopefully.
> 
> Shaverfurnace,I'm not going to sugarcoat it,your product is highly lacking in insulation,and fit and finish.A sad dissapointment considering the fact that Shavers been around so long,and the amount of information on Shavers site,and various others,telling how well insulated the Shaver is.I feel misled by the advertisement,and information on the site,and sites of dealers.I am baffeld that they ship the OWB with nothing but air between the hot watertank,and the cold cement ground under it.As for the door, it's too small,and the air gap may help,but the door would run much cooler if it were insulated from day one,how much would it cost for an 18x18 1000 degree hi temp if you bought in quantity?Maybe $10 dollars? I'd rather they left off the circulator and POS light it comes with,and skip the 50ft 1/2 " copper coil laying in the back,mine was kinked anyway.Take that money and insulate it the way it should be.BTW trying to run the hot water demands of a 2 fam home thru 50ft of 1/2" copper is like breathing thru a straw after running a marathon.1/2" doesn't even meet building code here,its only good for 4 water taps.I have a 2 fam home w 3 showers,2 dishwashers,2 washers,7 sinks.It needs 3/4" to meet code,so I couldnt use it if i wanted too,I wish I'd known that it was only 1/2" would have deleted it.On the door size we got 2 340s,a 68" long firebox,and 8000sq ft capacity,and only an 18" door,trying to fill it evenly is a job in itself.
> One last thing,your aquastat is a joke,it too doesnt meet UL specifications,and had to be ditched,it doesnt have a proper cover,(doesnt have any cover)and conduit sleeve.Its also nice to watch water sweat drip off the inside of the roof onto it and down the wires.




You're right, fit and finish is sorely lacking but that doesn't make the furnace. That could be one reason is costs so much less than others. It's the guts; the thick metal and strength that counts. However, we are going to try to make improvements to the appearance.

The Shaver is well insulated, comparing it to the R values on other furnaces. 
I don't understand the implication of deception because nowhere do we say that there is insulation on the bottom. The pictures were the only issue and they have been changed. The pictures haven't always been up there either...

We have never had a complaint about insulation before now. We can't ship them with insulation on the bottom because it always get ripped or torn off - we've tried. The new manuals say to lay down some fiberglass insulation before putting the furnace in place, if desired - but we have these in Alaska where is is regularly 30-35 below 0 F, with no complaints about heat loss and they heat the homes well!

Maybe we'll include extra insulation in the firebox so that customers can do this.

The door is not "too small". Can you really lift anything bigger than a 30" long,15" round log anyway? That things weighs 112 lb - let alone an 18" round or anything longer.

As posted here on this site, bigger doors are available for people that have to have them bigger. Remember, there is more heat loss with a bigger door because that is the only place that isn't surrounded by water.

Boxing in even an 18" x 18" door would requite 6 feet of metal which will transfer a LOT of heat to the outside of the door!

What is, "an 18x18 1000 degree hi temp"?

The copper tube is 5/8". Your water supply doesn't come through the coil. It is used to reheat and replenish the hot water in the H/W heater. You can EASILY pump 15 gallons a minute though it which way exceeds any hot water usage! Even tubs don't use more than 5 GPM and faucets are below 2. NEVER has anyone said that our hot water systems do not perform and they do work MUCH better and quicker that external heat exchangers.

People write to us all the time and talk about using a marathon of hot water, for literally hours on end (some have even stated use of four hours non-stop).

However most homes do not have 2 families!

For people heating more than one hot water heater or with 2 homes, a second coil is available.

The manual clearly shows a cover on the aquastat. Everything that we do that the customer can do, costs you money. All thermostats are UL listed.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. Remember, I sell for the factory. I have an independent business. I am not Shaver Furnace but I care about what you think, so I pass on all of this information and push them to make improvements all the time. Maybe now that we are only a month away from being caught up on ALL order from last year and this year, we can start making some improvements suggested here.


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Insulation*



ngzcaz said:


> ...there's about 1/2 to an inch from the bottom of the sheet metal to the concrete no one's going to see the lack of insulation unless they rip off some sheet metal.
> :agree2:



The bottom of the furnace is clearly seen when the furnaces are offloaded and set in place. No metal needs to be ripped off.

Again, only the pictures that were put up show the insulation on the bottom, if scrutinized. They have not always been on the website either.

Nowhere does the website text or brochures say that they are insulated on the bottom.

I feel that NOW people are looking at the pictures posted here and are saying OH YEAH they are supposed to have insulation.

I have never told anyone they were insulated on the bottom and when asked I told them NO, you can do that yourself. 

Again, there is VERY little heat loss there PLUS that heat is trapped inside the metal building, helping keep the piping and rear warm.


----------



## ngzcaz

Well.. no one has been as hard on Shaver as me. To their credit this is the first time they came out with a flat " you're right, we were wrong " answer. Most of the issues were addressed, perhaps not to everyone's satisfaction but they were answered. ( while UL approved, thats a poor excuse for an aquastat, 20 to 30 degree swings in water temp is not acceptable ) ( ash BIN, not pan, :censored: ) ( quick removal/replacement of water coil ? :bang: ) etc etc

I said a long time ago we were buying Fords and Chevys and others were buying Caddys and Lincolns. All will get you from point A to point B. Whether the fit and finish went downhill from all the orders coming and the factory responding and hiring more workers and trying to get them out asap no one really knows. While some welds look like a 10 year old kid was trying to strike an arc, other welds that surround the firebox and water jacket have to be on the money or there is a leak. I have a bit of welding experience and tell you that from welding water tight vessels. I have no explanation why they can be so different ( other welders doing different jobs ? ) 

Quick fixes ?? wrap the pipe w/ solarguard and thats solved. Probably a buck or two of actual insualtion. Time, a couple of minutes. By the way, if any of you attempted to close the many air gaps between the sheet metal and the roof, you may have done more harm than good, at least until you wrap your pipe. The way they had it setup allowed the air to wisk away the condensation due to the air gaps. Probably an accident rather than by design. Maybe thats why mine had an airgap where the pipe went thru the roof :censored: sarcasm intended...

Put reg insulation as Fletcher did in the door..done..another buck or two and another couple of minutes.

There's a couple of low cost steam fixes/alterations/filler tubes thats worthwhile. All good ideas..

There's no question a good product that works and is lower priced wins... up to a point. Improve the product so that customers are more satisfied and they will pay more.. up to a point. What I'm saying is some of these are almost no cost items that could easily be done by the factory, and should be. Things like insulation and especially aquastats should not be customers fixes. 

 ( and I dont even drink )


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## Dan-o

*heat loss*

There is a fair amount of heat loss on the bottom of the unit! Everytime it snows I have a 8-10" ring around the OWB of melted snow.


----------



## ngzcaz

Geez Ben, here I was trying to give you a thumbs up sorta and you stick your foot in your mouth again with a really weak excuse. My furnace was offloaded when I wasn't there in my driveway. A back hoe lifted it up a couple of inches to set on the pad. I wasn't going to stick my head underneath to look at whether or not it had insulation. In fact, I'd bet most guys were more worried getting it properly on the pad than to look underneath the furnace. And once its on the ground there is, in fact, a 1/2 to an inch clearance to the concrete. And yes, you do have to rip off the sheet metal to check anything once its in place. 

The website doesn't have to explain where all the insulation is located.. it all plainly shown on the pictures  

OK.. here we go.. something NO ONE is talking about. You stated a while back that the water routing was in essence, completely wrong and should flow exactly the opposite. The rep from Water Boiler Solutions told me the same thing when I called for my test kit. When were the customers notified that " forget our installation booklet/diagrams showing water flow, just reverse everything " ?? I, for one, haven't received anything yet. Since you seem to admit its wrong, just how much is it screwing things up ? Is it 5 percent ? 10 or more ?? Negligible ? Is it partly responsible for the wild swings in water temperature ? These are legitimate questions that any Shaver furnace owner should have answers for..

I have much more respect for an individual/company when they simply acknowledge where they are wrong. Billy Shaver seems to be a really decent person to deal with. You seem to take more of a politicians stance on things.
We bought them, they work, we are actually helping the company immensely
if they simply heed our suggestions and not fight us... Who doesn't want to have a unit that people say " wow, you have a Shaver ? " 

opcorn:


----------



## pipe76

Shaver mislead all of you folks that invested with them, take it, or demand retribution. plain and simple.


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Compliments*



pipe76 said:


> Shaver mislead all of you folks that invested with them, take it, or demand retribution. plain and simple.



Everyone doesn't think so as these unsolicited e-mails tell you:

We purchased the Series 165. Thanks, the stove is working great!!! Don K. IN

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope you will accept my appoligy for my stupid comments.
I have your furnace up and running now,and regret that i did not listen to you before I opened my big mouth.
Your Shaver Furnace so far was well worth all of the frustration.
This Thing works better than we had anticipated, 
We have been up and running for a week now and our gas has only come on 1 time because I did not put enough wood in the furnace.
I hope you will accept my apology.
I will and have highly recommended the Shaver
terry 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is so great to not feel guilty about turning up the thermostat! My " ice queen" wife really loves it as well! 
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!
Later,
Dan H.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ben,

Good morning! Hope all is well. I wanted to let you know that all is well with my new Shaver furnance. I have set the thermostat in my house to 80 and I ahve not looked back! I should have done this years ago... 
Any luck on the catyltic converter?

Happy New Year!!!

Thanks,

Frank

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To whom it may concern, 

I recently purchased one of your Shaver 165 furnaces. I recently fired it up on Dec. 22. So far I have been pleased with it's performance... 

Thanks, 
Chris 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ben
I was visiting your website, looks like you are staying busy. Still love our furnace. I wish we would have gone the next size bigger!!!! 

Thank you

Kevin D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The stove has been working great. Thanks, Roy S

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...By the way the unit works great , I'm very happy with it , I get 10 - 12 hour burns . Stocking times are 6:00 a.m full load ; 4 to 5 peices of wood around 4:00 p.m and then a full load at 9: 00 p. m . This seams to be working for me , I hope that all of your customers are so fortunate .

Regards Duane S

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From: Creade
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: coal 290


just to let you know,i bought a coal 290 to heat 3 houses it does terrific. a real good product. thanks creade

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-----Original Message-----
From: dan b
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 9:02 PM
To: Ben
Subject: Stove operation question


Hi Ben,I finally got all the parts and the stove has been operational for about a week and a half...

So far, I really like the stove and it seems to be pretty efficient, (I'll have a good test this weekend as it is supposed to get down into the low 20's,) I'm just concerned about all the water and the potential for rust and corrosion.

Thanks Dan 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----

All else aside I think you have a great product that is well made especially for the price. I hope you soon get cought up a few of my friends are weighting for there stoves.
Clinton


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Thumbs up?*



ngzcaz said:


> Geez Ben, here I was trying to give you a thumbs up sorta and you stick your foot in your mouth again with a really weak excuse. My furnace was offloaded when I wasn't there in my driveway. A back hoe lifted it up a couple of inches to set on the pad. I wasn't going to stick my head underneath to look at whether or not it had insulation. In fact, I'd bet most guys were more worried getting it properly on the pad than to look underneath the furnace. And once its on the ground there is, in fact, a 1/2 to an inch clearance to the concrete. And yes, you do have to rip off the sheet metal to check anything once its in place.
> 
> The website doesn't have to explain where all the insulation is located.. it all plainly shown on the pictures
> 
> OK.. here we go.. something NO ONE is talking about. You stated a while back that the water routing was in essence, completely wrong and should flow exactly the opposite. The rep from Water Boiler Solutions told me the same thing when I called for my test kit. When were the customers notified that " forget our installation booklet/diagrams showing water flow, just reverse everything " ?? I, for one, haven't received anything yet. Since you seem to admit its wrong, just how much is it screwing things up ? Is it 5 percent ? 10 or more ?? Negligible ? Is it partly responsible for the wild swings in water temperature ? These are legitimate questions that any Shaver furnace owner should have answers for..
> 
> I have much more respect for an individual/company when they simply acknowledge where they are wrong. Billy Shaver seems to be a really decent person to deal with. You seem to take more of a politicians stance on things.
> We bought them, they work, we are actually helping the company immensely
> if they simply heed our suggestions and not fight us... Who doesn't want to have a unit that people say " wow, you have a Shaver ? "
> 
> opcorn:



In all fairness, Billy isn't here getting bashed every day, even though it is his company. This is hard on the soul! I'm doing it at my expense (of sanity) and time and if I wasn't telling him everything, he would never know.

I am the one always pushing for changes and improvements.

I get on the phone with him constantly about all of this and I take it personally - probably too much so.

My only comment to you NOT AN EXCUSE AT ALL (re-read it) was that most people see the bottoms when they are offloaded.

Yes, the pictures were a mistake and I'm sorry no one noticed the error - no one for a whole year! It was not intentional to mislead anyone.

Why did no one mention it in a whole year, if it was so obvious?

Yes, the company we hired has advised us that the change can resolve some steaming or water usage but that seems to have been resolved in other ways, right?

I have told Billy about this as has the rep. There is no percentage of "screw up". Only water usage is an issue, It doesn't hurt performance, that I know of. Now it's out of my hands. It's not my call, but I have put it in the last couple of revisions of the manual. It worked well for 35 years and it was the only way I ever knew!

If you had my job, your attitude may be worse. Just try getting bashed every day. I don't know why I do this.

Again, I am helping here too, so try not being so hard and critical of every little thing or comment I make.

People are so quick to attack...


----------



## derwood91

I'm sure glad I didn't't end up with the shaver............. My Nature's Comfort is a fine piece of machinery. I'm not sure what Ben is talking about with the insulated door completely wrapped losing heat. My door is completely wrapped and insulated and the face of it is COOL to the touch with the hottest fire. I also could not imagine loading through the 18" door. I do agree that this is a mighty long thread for improvements to a furnace that is 30 some years in the making. My hat is off to all of you who have tackled the shortcomings of the Shaver. I wish you well and I hope I never have to start a "Nature's Comfort improvement forum". So far I'm satisfied with my furnace as delivered.

-Derek

Shaver order canceled and Nature's Comfort smokin' out back!!!!


----------



## fletcher0780

derwood91 said:


> I'm sure glad I didn't't end up with the shaver............. My Nature's Comfort is a fine piece of machinery. I'm not sure what Ben is talking about with the insulated door completely wrapped losing heat. My door is completely wrapped and insulated and the face of it is COOL to the touch with the hottest fire. I also could not imagine loading through the 18" door. I do agree that this is a mighty long thread for improvements to a furnace that is 30 some years in the making. My hat is off to all of you who have tackled the shortcomings of the Shaver. I wish you well and I hope I never have to start a "Nature's Comfort improvement forum". So far I'm satisfied with my furnace as delivered.
> 
> -Derek
> 
> Shaver order canceled and Nature's Comfort smokin' out back!!!!



Would you mind taking pictures of the door from different angles and posting them, maybe ours can be easily modified?


----------



## ngzcaz

Well Ben.. first off I do know where you are coming from, perhaps more than you know. I was a police officer for a quarter of a century and people ONLY called me if there was a domestic ( always a good time ) bar fight, assault, murder, rape, robbery, or better yet a death notification of a teen age kid. So I guess I have limited sympathy for someone behind a computer listening to legitimate complaints.  

If some of these answers had been more forthcoming w/out pulling teeth, you wouldn't have as many frustrated customers. This is the first time I've heard that the routing of the water is probably responsible for the steaming/loss of water in the system. This answers a lot of questions why some people were having problems with water consumption.  However, it shouldn't have been the responsibility of the customer to find the remedy.  

You just don't seem to understand that most guys are setting their furnace
as their top priority, not looking underneath it, which by the way is not a good thing to do if it lets loose from the chain. Since you seem to think it was the customers responsibility to check out the insulation under the furnace, just how high up is this thing when its unloaded ? Even if the bottom was 5 ft high, you'd still have to bend over and look up at it. Thats why it wasn't mentioned for a whole year. Very few people saw it and if they did, they may not have known or realized what they were looking at. Just another dumb excuse IMHO. 

The lack of understanding about door size is also interesting. For myself, I don't want to LOAD a 20 in diameter log, its just nice to have room when throwing them in the unit so you don't whack the sides and have it tumble back at you. A 10 or 12 in log doesn't have a lot of clearance on a standard door. 

I think the light is at the end of the tunnel. Most problems have been taken care of by the ingenuity of the Shaver owners.  Shaver seems to have taken care of warranty issues in a timely manner.  The stove with all its shortcomings works well, and in all probability will work even better with the refinements that were contributed to this forum.  

opcorn:


----------



## david78

I must have missed something along the way. Is it now the recommendation to pull supply water from the bottom of the furnace rather than the top? Is that the way all of you have yours plumbed? Is it working better? Ray at the Shaver factory told me the supply should come from the top where the water was hottest. He did say that when your pump is running there is enough circulation inside the furnace that it didn't really matter which was supply or return. On issue I wondered about: the Grundfos pump I'm using recommends minimum 3 feet of static head. Sure don't get that mounting the pump at the top of the furnace. I read somewhere that insufficient static head can lead to premature pump failure. Anyone know about that? I'm probably going to move ny pump into the house which would solve that particular problem. As you said, it would have been nice to know all this stuff ahead of time. Shaver ought to snag all the good stuff off this forum and add it to their manual.


----------



## derwood91

*Pics.......*

Hey Fletch, I'll try to get some pics this afternoon when I get home. Hopefully there is enough light and Visibility with the blowing snow.

-Derek


----------



## fletcher0780

derwood91 said:


> Hey Fletch, I'll try to get some pics this afternoon when I get home. Hopefully there is enough light and Visibility with the blowing snow.
> 
> -Derek



Cool thanks. Snow huh, lucky!


----------



## John D

Ben, first off, I want you to know that I appreciate you taking the time to reply to these posts and us customers.Not every company does.
Below is my issue with the insulation we actually got,and what your advertisement and photos suggest we would get. I seen the pictures of the firebox,and insulation that Fletcher posted,that is how I thought it was insulated, In conjunction with following Shavers statement I read in many places

( If you want to cut down on loading as often, you can go to the 250 model for $900 more than the 165, because the firebox is almost 50% bigger so it holds a whole lot more wood! (We don't make a dime more on the bigger models).

Ditto for the 290 over the 250. With 21% more volume, you don't have to put wood in the outside wood furnace as often. It's only $250 extra.

Bigger models do not burn any more wood because they are so well insulated - the extra water you are heating, doesn't lose it's heat!)


I got this off one of your dealers sites.Ben read the last sentence,so well insulated?A bare bottom,uninsulated door thats hot to the touch in 10 degree weather, and bare single wall chimney that sweats the roof inside,and steams it outside.
With both the picture,and the info,why would any potential customer believe anything other than that it is a well insulated unit.As for us being the first customers in 36 yrs to complain,I don't buy it,and times change,36 yrs ago,no one cared how well homes were insulated around here as fuel oil was .12 a gallon until Carter.
What I meant by 18x18" 1000 degree was a square piece of hi temp insulation for the door air gap,what could it cost in bulk?I never suggested boxing in the door,you did.I never even mentioned the rear of the boiler,which is hot to the touch as well.Clearly not insulated well either.
The manual shows a tstat cover,but it isnt with the furnace,it needs to be bought and homemade,such "boxes" are not UL approved covers,I had the UL inspector here,and guess what it FAILED.Thats why I say it isnt a finished product,I dont get it you supply a generic circulator,and light,but leave us to try to source,and fabricate an electrical box cover,something that should be done by you esp considering the safety and nature of it.To top it all off Shaver shows it as easy to install by the handyman homeowner.I didn't know we were all capable of building UL approved electrical covers,and wiring tracts! Shaver could have installed the stat in a $2 dollar work box with a UL tag on it,bushing hole,and cover,and saved $65 dollars on the circulator.
As for the door,it is too small,esp on the 290 and 340's.I can see it on the 165,since it isnt very deep.My 250 is hard to load the front fully,the thing you dont mention is you need to put more than one log in at one time,once a 10-12" round is in,or 2 or 3 along the bottom,it is hard to get another one in next to it or on top of it.If a single 15x30 would heat for a night I wouldnt complain,but again esp the 340,where you need to load in 24+" long wood,double deep,so its 48" deep,and fill it to the top to get an overnight burn on 6500 sq ft.Try doing that thru the 18" hole. I'd rather have the door opening at the top of the firebox,this way you could drop in a log,poke it where you want it,and then add another on top of it,with it in the center,you can't get the 3rd log on top of the bottom row,even though theres plenty of room inside the 36" firebox,if you could just get the log past the door.You know the problem isnt that I can't get a bigger log thru the door,its that you can't fill the firebox 2/3 full with anything bigger than small sticks with the door in the center ,it needs to be higher up or the door needs to be taller.
Your new manuals suggests laying down fiberglass,thats rediculous ,and dangerous to try to line up the boiler,and try to line up the insulation which will lay on the ground and get wet,thus becoming a conductor instead of an insulator.The insulation eeds to be up against the boilers water jacket,not on the ground below it,there also neds to be an air gap between the insulation and ground,so moisture doesnt wick from the cement to the fiberglass when it rains.To think someone would lay under the boiler and properly install it while its hanging from a chain is a suicide mission.It needs to be done at the factory.I recommend 2" blue R10 secured with 4 or 5 metal strips across the bottom.No one is going to damage it,and if they do,then they lose R value in that spot only.A .30 cent bright yellow warning tag on the boiler door with a note about the insulation and handling would fix that problem.I am wondering how it gets damaged,when the metal shipping pallet under it has 4 or 5 C channels crossing the boiler,to accept th pallet forks,my pallet forks never got near the bottom of the water jacket.It isn't getting damaged there in transit,and the final installer usually sets with a chain thru the chimney,how will that damage it?


----------



## derwood91

*PICS of NCB Door.....*



fletcher0780 said:


> Would you mind taking pictures of the door from different angles and posting them, maybe ours can be easily modified?



Let me know if you need any more. The wrap looks to be a stamped piece and the weld seam must be under the door seal rope. Tapered and about 4 inches thick. Very heavy duty and never hot to the touch. Big A$$ opening too!!! I have no problem loading and playing "tetris" with the pieces. Couldn't help but toss in a pic of my wood hauler. Trimmed up some stuff around the field edge a couple of weeks ago.

-Derek


----------



## fletcher0780

Thanks a lot Derwood. You don't know what the door is insulated wit do you? Is it hollow inside? That looks like a nice boiler, does it hold temperature well? Have you had any issues with it? is the bottom of the water jacket insulated?


----------



## Blazin

Dang!! After readin thru this whole thing, I'm glad I did'nt buy one!!!


----------



## derwood91

I'm not sure what it's insulated with. I know there has to be something in there because it is cool to the touch. The boiler holds temp fine. I get more than 12 hours on a load whereas my brother gets 24 on his heatmore. I check it every 12 but there is always a good amount of wood left. I don't think my boiler would make it 24 hours most days. That heatmore holds quite a bit more wood though. The bottom of my boiler was NOT insulated. This surprised me because it's up on legs. I just used some 2" blueboard against the bottom and as a skirt around it. This extended my burn times on the really windy days. This is a much easier task when the boiler is 12" off the ground!! No issues yet. I could have had the heatmore for about 2700 more, but I decided to go the cheaper route with shaver originally but that obviously didn't work out so I have the NCB. All in all my whole system cost me less than just the boiler from Heatmore.
How hot is the Shaver door getting? Burn you hot? How long does a load last you?


----------



## fletcher0780

I've measured my door at 250* plus before I added insulation between the panels, now after the insulation I see about 150*. I can generally get 12 hours on a load when it's cold. I think more insulation will extend that a bit. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## fletcher0780

fletcher0780 said:


> I've had unfaced fiberglass stuffed between mine for a month and it is holding up well. Now I just need to insulate to bottom of the water jacket (which I was led to believe was already insulated) and add better insulation around the entire unit. The Ranco digital aquastat and solenoid controlled damper door are working well though.
> 
> Does anyone else think these images indicates insulation below the water jacket, or am I interpreting them incorrectly:



Just so nobody thinks I'm crazy, since the images were corrected and these are direct links to the shaver page, here's what the original images looked like:


----------



## trshmn

Yea Fletch your right on about the insulation, And they show the grate going to the back of it but it does'nt, hell it only goes half way


----------



## ngzcaz

Speaking of the grate ( which is really down there in the list of prioritys ) was anyone else's facing sideways instead of the rebars going the long way toward the chimney ? On the 165 they can be turned either way so I guess its a matter of preference. I turned mine so when you use the poker you are going the long way with the rebars instead of the poker jumping over each grate. I doubt that it affects burn times but might cause more ash to build up instead of getting knocked down in the ash BIN ( couldn't help it ) 
Since I have my great factory aquastat set at slightly over 140 ( temp inside the oil burner aquastat shows a tad over 160 then goes down to slightly under 140 before kicking on again, my 165 door can be touched easily w/out burning my fingers. However more insulation can only help in the door and how cheap is that amount of unfaced fiberglas ?

:greenchainsaw:


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Adding chemicals*



Windwalker7 said:


> Here's a tip. If you need to add more chemicals after your DHW coil is sealed up, add them through the steam vent/ overflow tube.
> 
> Put a piece of 1" pex over the pipe with the curve upward. Insert a funnel and pour in the chemicals. Give it a couple cups of water for a chaser.



YES! I've been telling people the same thing and it was added to the last Shaver Manual update - as well as a way to add chemicals at an unused port in back, using an elbow, a straight piece of pipe and a cap..

Best regards,

Ben


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Suggestions being implemented*



ngzcaz said:


> Well Ben.. first off I do know where you are coming from, perhaps more than you know. I was a police officer for a quarter of a century and people ONLY called me if there was a domestic ( always a good time ) bar fight, assault, murder, rape, robbery, or better yet a death notification of a teen age kid. So I guess I have limited sympathy for someone behind a computer listening to legitimate complaints.
> 
> If some of these answers had been more forthcoming w/out pulling teeth, you wouldn't have as many frustrated customers. This is the first time I've heard that the routing of the water is probably responsible for the steaming/loss of water in the system. This answers a lot of questions why some people were having problems with water consumption.  However, it shouldn't have been the responsibility of the customer to find the remedy.
> 
> You just don't seem to understand that most guys are setting their furnace
> as their top priority, not looking underneath it, which by the way is not a good thing to do if it lets loose from the chain. Since you seem to think it was the customers responsibility to check out the insulation under the furnace, just how high up is this thing when its unloaded ? Even if the bottom was 5 ft high, you'd still have to bend over and look up at it. Thats why it wasn't mentioned for a whole year. Very few people saw it and if they did, they may not have known or realized what they were looking at. Just another dumb excuse IMHO.
> 
> The lack of understanding about door size is also interesting. For myself, I don't want to LOAD a 20 in diameter log, its just nice to have room when throwing them in the unit so you don't whack the sides and have it tumble back at you. A 10 or 12 in log doesn't have a lot of clearance on a standard door.
> 
> I think the light is at the end of the tunnel. Most problems have been taken care of by the ingenuity of the Shaver owners.  Shaver seems to have taken care of warranty issues in a timely manner.  The stove with all its shortcomings works well, and in all probability will work even better with the refinements that were contributed to this forum.
> 
> opcorn:




You had a MUCH harder job for sure, and the complaints are legitimate but none-the-less, it's still disheartening to take all the bashing because I do take it personally.

I spent an hour on the phone with Billy last night (with barely a voice) going over these issues AGAIN and it appears that we WILL be making changes such as using a Ranco thermometer and a dampered fan.

I did not mean to imply that everyone should be looking under the furnace and I'm sorry if it came across that way. 

There have been VERY few complaints about the door size (in 36 years) AND a bigger door is available (with my insistence) but we are limited by the size of the pipe as to how big it can be made. If more people voiced their opinion about needing a bigger door, Billy might do it.

I appreciate ALL the comments and suggestions and many will be in production soon, I believe.

BTW, Billy said he DID NOT agree with what the rep at Wood Boiler Solutions was saying about moving the pump to the bottom. Nature's Comfort has there's where ours is and everyone says it works great, right?. That's why he hasn't send out a notice about it but I did make a suggestion to that effect in the manual.

Thank-you for your applause for some things right... and the suggestions.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. Does the appearance of the furnace, i.e. caulking, etc., really bother anybody?


----------



## John D

ShaverFurnace said:


> I spent an hour on the phone with Billy last night (with barely a voice) going over these issues AGAIN and it appears that we WILL be making changes such as using a Ranco thermometer and a dampered fan.
> 
> 
> 
> There have been VERY few complaints about the door size (in 36 years) AND a bigger door is available (with my insistence) but we are limited by the size of the pipe as to how big it can be made. If more people voiced their opinion about needing a bigger door, Billy might do it.
> 
> I appreciate ALL the comments and suggestions and many will be in production soon, I believe.
> 
> BTW, Billy said he DID NOT agree with what the rep at Wood Boiler Solutions was saying about moving the pump to the bottom. Nature's Comfort has there's where ours is and everyone says it works great, right?. That's why he hasn't send out a notice about it but I did make a suggestion to that effect in the manual.
> 
> Thank-you for your applause for some things right... and the suggestions.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben
> 
> P.S. Does the appearance of the furnace, i.e. caulking, etc., really bother anybody?



Thank you for the reply, I am running my pump from the top port to circ to the house,bottom return.That is how it should be,no ifs ands or butts,its the way water flows,why try to fight it,hot at the top,why take cold water from the bottom,and bring colder water back to the top?You will need to run the OWB hotter to have the same water temps inside. From what ive read here the ppl having problems either arent sitting level on the pad,or are shutting the circ off when the heating zones kick off.If Shaver would put a recommendation to let the circ run full time,if they have a problem,if that solves it,then leave it on full time.Probably better anyway,helps circulate water evenly around the firebox,eliminating hot spots,inaccurate aquastat temp readings,and steaming.For the 2-5 dollars a month in electric its well worth it,also gives you immediate heat inside,and will extend the inside boilers life by keeping water temps stable inside and out,not shocking it with a wave of hot water after its cooled off.
The appearance isnt a deal breaker for me,but its usually a good reflection of the overall quaility of the product. The real problems have been discussed here,if this OWB was a set it and forget OWB,like a CB is,I don't think many would be complaining about the looks much.Business end details are very important,like quality installed insulation,and design/engineering a finished product that works well out of the box,as delivered.Esp important with the blower/aquastat. This is why I suggested skipping the light,and circ,and adding a Ranco ,bottom,and door insulation,a chinmey wrap, and solenoid to the blower.The costs should be similar,but I feel the circ,and light are much easier for the end user to address,and finish than the other problems.


----------



## Windwalker7

I thought I might chime in here.


First off, thank you Ben for at least responding to the many posts in this thread. I'm sure you feel out numbered and it must get very frustrating.

I like my furnace. I actually like it a lot. Sure, there are several things about it the need improved and several good ideas have surfaced on this thread. Some things should have been done at the factory and not let up to the customer. ( that's the way other brand furnaces are delivered)

I do understand the need to cut a few corners to keep the price. Whether most on here would admit it or not, the main reason we considered the Shaver was the cost. Compare the price to any other.

The thicker firebox was another big plus.


Yes, the furnace does have that home made look about it. With the caulk sticking out everywhere, doesn't help things in the looks department. It isn't as fancy as other brands and I knew that before I bought mine. Like I sais before, what hooked me, was the thicker firebox and the price.


My biggest complaint was the way customers were dragged alond for weeks and weeks waiting for furnaces. Delivery dates were given and the canceled many times. this didn't happen to one or two customers, it happened to just about everyone.

I feel that many of those customers were even lied to. Yes, lied to! There were people that ordered furnaces in jJune and had not received them even by November, yet your Website was telling potential customers that if they ordered in early November, they'd get there furnace by the end of December.

This is a crock! People already waiting for 5 months while others are being promised delevery in 2 months.


This my friend, is probably why so many were angered with the Shaver Co. 


All in all, I do like my furnace and would almost recommend one to someone else. Why almost? Because I'm not sure the furnace would be delivered when promised. When they aren't delivered, this leaves a sour taste in their mouth. This causes customers to be more critical of the company.

I'm glad to hear that Shaver is considering the improvments suggested. These will make a good furnace great!


----------



## hypothesis

:agree2:


----------



## hypothesis

:agree2:


----------



## Redbird

*My 2 sense*

I'm new here and have been reading this for the last couple weeks. I purchased my 165 in Sept. (from a dealer, it was the quickest delivery and didn't cost anymore than the factory). I Finally got the first house on line 12/6, yes first, I then added the second house a week later. Distance to each about 175 ft. My rental, built 1930ish, about 1000 sq ft of partially insulated, setting on the ground, some places less than 10" between joist and ground, house. Then mine, built 1995, 1500sq ft. The stove keeps both comfortable (68-70 F). OWB set 180. It is generally loaded full about 5 am and a quarter load about 3-4pm and then reloaded about 9-10pm. Last night with temps about 0, colder than normal here in Va. we added some coal into the mix and water was 170 at 5:30 this morn. Wasn't I suprised,it's usually in the 140-150. I do agree with most that there is room for improvement. And it does make a difference. Some type of controller to more accurately control the temp, You could say I'm a Hi tech redneck. (mine is digital, reading a thermocouple, and 3 relay outputs to control the fan (which is wired in series with the original temp controller (water heater stat), and the solenoid controlled damper, which was a great idea, can't remember who I copied on that, but thanks. Closed it smolders away, and reheat time is much shorter with the full air flow of the fan. And if I wanted to a warning light to let me know if I am under temp (need wood) or overtemp (something wrong). I keep both pumps running 24/7 and have no problems with temp overshoot, I may heave some heat loss but nothing will freeze and everything stays up to temp. After reading this thread I decided like many that I wanted better control of my fire. That is not to say the stove didn't work as shipped, it's that it could be made better for a few hundred more. I based my purchase on the structure of the stove and definitely the price, so adding a couple hours of my time and a couple hundred bucks for gadgets is a heckuva lot better than paying 1500$ for something that heats water the way mine does. If I had it to do over I would have gotten a larger size for the larger water capacity, but I might still be waiting on it. I plan on making a few insulation improvements come warm weather, but other than that I think I got exactly what I paid for. A Big water heater that is cheap to heat, as opposed to 1500-2000$ worth of propane last year. I figure in 3 yrs or sooner depends on the economy, it will be paid for and the savings can go in the bank for the kids. IMO if you don't own a Shaver then you don't need to be on here bashing them It is an IMPROVEMENT forum. If you don't own one then it's not your problem.


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## LTREES

The thicker firebox was another big plus.

My biggest complaint was the way customers were dragged alond for weeks and weeks waiting for furnaces. Delivery dates were given and the canceled many times. this didn't happen to one or two customers, it happened to just about everyone.

I feel that many of those customers were even lied to. Yes, lied to! There were people that ordered furnaces in jJune and had not received them even by November, yet your Website was telling potential customers that if they ordered in early November, they'd get there furnace by the end of December.

This is a crock! People already waiting for 5 months while others are being promised delevery in 2 months.

This my friend, is probably why so many were angered with the Shaver Co. 

When they aren't delivered, this leaves a sour taste in their mouth. This causes customers to be more critical of the company.

I'm glad to hear that Shaver is considering the improvments suggested. These will make a good furnace great![/QUOTE]



I'm not sorry I decided on the CB 5036, I don't have the time to be tinkering with an OWB. That would have frustrated me even more than the 5 months I waited on the unit. Not saying the unit is a bad one, just felt like I was knocked down and then kicked.

LT...


PS. I have a 40 plate heat exchanger for sale new, PM me if any one wants it.


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## Redbird

I agree the way it sounds like they have been doing people is no way to run a business. I think part of the problem is that everyone including myself have jumped on the self sufficient plan (no oil, or propane or at least as little as possible. Last summers gas prices and the lack of control of propane prices have people thinking about ways to make the money go farther. I myself decided to say the heck with the propane company last winter. I was with the same business for about 18 years and then they sold out to someone from out of state. My bill more than doubled in less than a year. Since Shaver obviously sells a well built quality product (which could be better for a small cost) for much less than the competition, I think that they have just been overwhelmed with orders, (I may be wrong), and that they just can't keep up. I purchased from a dealer because I was told by the dealer or the factory, can't remember who, that they fill the dealers orders before individual customers and I didn't care about the color anyway. I cared about function. They (Shaver) need to realize if they can't back-up what they advertise/promise then don't. The best thing to do is be honest with the customer. I myself might not like it but at least I would respect their honesty. I hope they get their wood in a pile before they burn it up. Someone who's been in business for as long as they have should should know better.


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## 310 german

I decided to chime in on this forum for a couple reasons. 1) I would like to say a few words to (poor) Ben at shaver furnace, and 2) I wish to stay in the loop with those of you who have been working the bugs out of these furnaces and add a suggestion of my own. 

Ben- I definitely think you are getting a raw deal here. Both from Weld-rite and from those who condemn you(instead of weld rite). I think it would be wise to re-evaluate your position, because from where I sit it would appear that you are taking all the $h!t, and you don't even make the product. I don't know exactly how you communicate the reported shortcomings to Billy at Weld-rite, but he needs to see and hear this stuff for himself for it to stick. If I'm guessing right, you were hired to take orders and handle production scheduling, neither of which includes the customer complaint department. My point is- I feel for ya, but only you can fix your predicament.

As for my furnace, I am very happy to have found this forum. I'll be doing the Ranco aquastat upgrade, the blower mod, insulating the chimney and then the whole furnace better (especially under), and very likely raising it to a better hieght. I have a suggestion for another upgrade that I will be trying out this summer. I have already posted it on another forum I found elsewhere, so I'm just going to paste the whole thing in below. *I'd like to hear some comments back as to what you all think.*Here is my contribution to the other thread:

_I ordered a 340 model (the BIG one) from Shaver last April. I did extensive research on at least 25 different manufacturers. After looking at all the info available on the web at that time (and now), I felt the heavy-duty construction and simplicity of the unit was what I was looking for. At the time of ordering, I explained to them that I did not need or want the furnace delivered until early fall. I set up a tentative delivery date of Oct. 1st. As that date approached, I called them to push the date back as I hadn't gotten the pad poured yet. I took delivery on Oct. 8th. That was earlier than I was supposed to get it and I still did not have the pad done. I paid to have it delivered and placed on the pad. They brought it early, so it could not be set in place. At my request and WITH NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER they sent me an extra circulating pump instead of refunding me the difference. The furnace operates just fine. I heat my 2750 sq. foot home and attached 3 car garage, the hot water for my home, and my grandmother's poorly insulated old farm house. The only thing I would change about the furnace is to customize it a bit. I will be making my own shaker grate for it for next year. I also want to build angled sides for the inside of the firebox that can also hold refractory brick. This will serve two purposes: 1. holding in more heat, thereby burning up the "charcoal" nuggets better.

and 2. giving a "hopper" effect so that as the fuel burns, gravity will direct it not only downward, but into the center which is where the air supply comes from and the ashes fall down through. 

This will, I think, remedy the problem so prevalent on almost all OWB stoves where ashes build up on either side of the fire grates (on stoves that have them). That particular problem not only creates large piles of not-fully-combusted charcoal, but it also holds in moisture if it gets deep enough. This will ultimately cause the firebox to corrode away. 

All in all, I am satisfied with the Shaver furnace. I have had good luck with it so far and I think that once I make my customizations, it will go from "good" to "great".

I can't really say anything too bad about thier public relations based on my experience, but I would say that they need to work on that based on all the comments above. Speaking as a business owner, the best advertising is customer referrals. You won't get that unless you give people at least what they expect from you (which is what you promised them) or better. And timing is everything. No one likes to feel as though they are being "blown off". Excuses are BAD and should always be apologetic, assertive(as to the remedy) and financially rewarding(even if only slightly) to the customer.

-Warm in PA_​
Let me know what you think about the refractory brick mod. BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?

Regards,
Ron


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## yodayoda

BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?


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## fletcher0780

yodayoda said:


> BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
> I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?



I believe ngzcaz used solarguard and wrapped it a few times. I think you may run into a problem if you slide insulated pipe over the existing chimney. the pipe will still sweat, but now it will be concentrated to the area just around the chimney on top of the water jacket (unless it is a really tight fit). You could probably aslo wrap it with unfaced fiberglass and use hi-temp tape or hose clamps to secure it.


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## yodayoda

fletcher0780 said:


> I believe ngzcaz used solarguard and wrapped it a few times. I think you may run into a problem if you slide insulated pipe over the existing chimney. the pipe will still sweat, but now it will be concentrated to the area just around the chimney on top of the water jacket (unless it is a really tight fit). You could probably aslo wrap it with unfaced fiberglass and use hi-temp tape or hose clamps to secure it.



Are people having trouble with the chimney actually sweating or the underside of the roof? It seems my chimney runs way to hot to sweat, any moisture I think would boil off?


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## John D

yodayoda said:


> Are people having trouble with the chimney actually sweating or the underside of the roof? It seems my chimney runs way to hot to sweat, any moisture I think would boil off?



The heat from the chimney rises up under the roof,which is uninsulated,the temp on top is as cold as outdoors,temp under the roof is 50-60 degrees,maybe more depending on how much the OWB is firing the blower.This creates moisture forming under the roof,which drips onto the insulation,and ruins it.It also runs to the rear of mine,and drips down freezing the door shut,and drips on the blower,I'm sure that isnt any good for it.As mine builds up a layer of cresote,it is less of an issue,but it still does it.This is the only reason to insulate the chimney,to keep the heat out from under the roof.


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## yodayoda

John D said:


> The heat from the chimney rises up under the roof,which is uninsulated,the temp on top is as cold as outdoors,temp under the roof is 50-60 degrees,maybe more depending on how much the OWB is firing the blower.This creates moisture forming under the roof,which drips onto the insulation,and ruins it.It also runs to the rear of mine,and drips down freezing the door shut,and drips on the blower,I'm sure that isnt any good for it.As mine builds up a layer of cresote,it is less of an issue,but it still does it.This is the only reason to insulate the chimney,to keep the heat out from under the roof.


So what do think of my idea to slide insulated stove pipe over the existing pipe? or will this just cause more problems as fletcher suggested


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## ShaverFurnace

*chimney wrap*



yodayoda said:


> BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
> I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?



I believe header wrap would be the best.

Best regards,

Ben


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## fletcher0780

ShaverFurnace said:


> I believe header wrap would be the best.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben



That's a good idea! I might just have to try that.


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## urhstry

Now one thing I know about header wrap is that it holds mositure and will eventually rust out header pipes. Some guys disagree because they have their pipes wrapped on a show car that they show only so many times a year so they never get the same amount of moisture that a daily driver would get... in our case, our OWB's.


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## fletcher0780

urhstry said:


> Now one thing I know about header wrap is that it holds mositure and will eventually rust out header pipes. Some guys disagree because they have their pipes wrapped on a show car that they show only so many times a year so they never get the same amount of moisture that a daily driver would get... in our case, our OWB's.



get it ceramic coated


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## trshmn

yodayoda said:


> BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
> I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?



Great idea, I was thinking same thing, using six inch triple wall, cut the roof out to fit it then reseal around top of roof with silicone, and easy to add extra pipe if needed, but you will have 1/2" gap between the two pipes, maybe stuff with rope gasket so creosote does'nt run down in , should keep all heat out of the roof area and control condensation


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## 310 german

Has anyone considered wrapping the chimney below the roof and going to triple wall above? That way, if there was any condensation in between the walls, it would simply drip out the bottom and run down the roof. I am building a shelter / woodshed that will cover the furnace and a year's worth of wood, so I was going to use the tri wall to go up through the roof. 

Also, any thoughts on my idea for adding refractory brick that are built into angled sides? 



> The only thing I would change about the furnace is to customize it a bit. I will be making my own shaker grate for it for next year. I also want to build angled sides for the inside of the firebox that can also hold refractory brick. This will serve two purposes: 1. holding in more heat, thereby burning up the "charcoal" nuggets better.
> 
> and 2. giving a "hopper" effect so that as the fuel burns, gravity will direct it not only downward, but into the center which is where the air supply comes from and the ashes fall down through.
> 
> This will, I think, remedy the problem so prevalent on almost all OWB stoves where ashes build up on either side of the fire grates (on stoves that have them). That particular problem not only creates large piles of not-fully-combusted charcoal, but it also holds in moisture if it gets deep enough. This will ultimately cause the firebox to corrode away.


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## fletcher0780

310 german said:


> Has anyone considered wrapping the chimney below the roof and going to triple wall above? That way, if there was any condensation in between the walls, it would simply drip out the bottom and run down the roof. I am building a shelter / woodshed that will cover the furnace and a year's worth of wood, so I was going to use the tri wall to go up through the roof.
> 
> Also, any thoughts on my idea for adding refractory brick that are built into angled sides?



I think that's what I'll do. I had single wall pipe off the top and clogged up quick. I'm waiting on my pipe adapter so I can use 6" pipe on top. I don't know about the angled sides, but I am going to line my floor with fire brick to help retain heat better. I hoping that in addition to re insulating the unit the fire brick will allow me to maintain water temperature longer


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## yodayoda

trshmn said:


> Great idea, I was thinking same thing, using six inch triple wall, cut the roof out to fit it then reseal around top of roof with silicone, and easy to add extra pipe if needed, but you will have 1/2" gap between the two pipes, maybe stuff with rope gasket so creosote does'nt run down in , should keep all heat out of the roof area and control condensation



So you dont think you will get condensation between the two pipes? There seems to be a difference of opinion of where the condensation comes from the roof, the pipe, or both. I was all set to add the pipe as you described, but Fletcher thinks I will get condensation between the pipes, will run down between the two pipes and get the insulation etc. wet. Ive read alot of fletchers posts and respect his opinion alot.


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## fletcher0780

yodayoda said:


> So you dont think you will get condensation between the two pipes? There seems to be a difference of opinion of where the condensation comes from the roof, the pipe, or both. I was all set to add the pipe as you described, but Fletcher thinks I will get condensation between the pipes, will run down between the two pipes and get the insulation etc. wet. Ive read alot of fletchers posts and respect his opinion alot.



That's is just a guess, I could be wrong. The thing you need to make sure of is that moisture can't run down either the inside of the insulated pipe, or the outside of the existing chimney. I like the idea of using the rope gasket, but I'd take it one step further and hi-temp silicone on top of the rope. Are you planning to extend the 3-wall pipe all the way up to the top, or just under the roof area? I think all the way to whatever height you need would make the most sense, but you'll probably still want to seal between the top of the existing pipe and your 3-wall to keep crap (moisture) from running down and settling on top of your water jacket. Make sure you document whatever process you follow and post it here, so the rest of us can copy it


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## yodayoda

fletcher0780 said:


> That's is just a guess, I could be wrong. The thing you need to make sure of is that moisture can't run down either the inside of the insulated pipe, or the outside of the existing chimney. I like the idea of using the rope gasket, but I'd take it one step further and hi-temp silicone on top of the rope. Are you planning to extend the 3-wall pipe all the way up to the top, or just under the roof area? I think all the way to whatever height you need would make the most sense, but you'll probably still want to seal between the top of the existing pipe and your 3-wall to keep crap (moisture) from running down and settling on top of your water jacket. Make sure you document whatever process you follow and post it here, so the rest of us can copy it



I was thinking all the way up, in my brain your also losing heat from the pipe being exposed when it's 25 below and the winds a blowin, any heat thats pulled from the pipe is going to pull heat from the whole stove, also I can't find a collar that fits the shaver pipe to put around the chimney above the roof to keep water out, I've resiliconed the seem around the pipe and roof but I think with the expansion/ contraction of the roof and pipe it's not going to last. Thanks for your input Fletcher and everyone else. When I got the stove you could see daylight betwee the pipe and the tin


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## david78

*Hillbilly Engineering*

Thought some of you guys might like to see the damper control I rigged up. In keeping with Shaver's legendary  simplicity, it's non-electric. Years ago I bought some barometric type damper controls to replace the spin type on my woodstove. Used them awhile but didn't like them so they've been laying on a shelf in my garage for years. Basically they're a round metal flap mounted on a pivot inside a collar. I put one inside a piece of 4" PVC, siliconed the gap and riveted the whole thing to the side of the blower. When the blower kicks on it pulls the flap open. When the blower is off the counterweight on the bottom of the flap pulls it closed. When it's open I think it's about equivalent to the stock blower flap being open 3/4 to all the way. I put the Ranco thermostat on today. I like it.


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## fletcher0780

david78 said:


> Thought some of you guys might like to see the damper control I rigged up.



 love it! What do you have your ranco set at?


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## John D

david78 said:


> Thought some of you guys might like to see the damper control I rigged up. In keeping with Shaver's legendary  simplicity, it's non-electric. Years ago I bought some barometric type damper controls to replace the spin type on my woodstove. Used them awhile but didn't like them so they've been laying on a shelf in my garage for years. Basically they're a round metal flap mounted on a pivot inside a collar. I put one inside a piece of 4" PVC, siliconed the gap and riveted the whole thing to the side of the blower. When the blower kicks on it pulls the flap open. When the blower is off the counterweight on the bottom of the flap pulls it closed. When it's open I think it's about equivalent to the stock blower flap being open 3/4 to all the way. I put the Ranco thermostat on today. I like it.




Very nice,thats better than mine,since it uses zero wattage to stay open,and is self closing.Any info on where to get,and how much,the rest of the shavers we got haven't had the blower mods yet.


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## david78

I wrapped my chimney with radiant barrier foil. It's perforated so it's supposed to let moisture escape. I got a roll of it from www.radiantguard.com. for another project. Here's a picture of my furnace; you can see the foil under the overhang. I haven't gotten around to wrapping the chimney extension yet, but I think I will. The only place I get creosote buildup is at the very top of the extension so I'm thinking insulating might help.


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## david78

I set the Ranco at 170. I'll play with it some and see what works best. John D, evidently the company that made mine is out of business; couldn't find them (or a similar product) on the web. It was called the Woodmiser, made by Energy Alternatives, Inc. But like I said, this was probably 20 years ago when I bought it.


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## trshmn

It's just my opinion, I'm no expert , but I'd say the shaver pipe produces way to much heat to have condensation, with the triple wall around it, has to stay warm, I agree that the heat loss in the roof area against the cold outer roof is what causes it. the triple wall will set flush against the water jacket, seal around it with hi-temp, if there is moisture on the shaver pipe it should burn off when it fire's .


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## yodayoda

trshmn said:


> It's just my opinion, I'm no expert , but I'd say the shaver pipe produces way to much heat to have condensation, with the triple wall around it, has to stay warm, I agree that the heat loss in the roof area against the cold outer roof is what causes it. the triple wall will set flush against the water jacket, seal around it with hi-temp, if there is moisture on the shaver pipe it should burn off when it fire's .



Thats kinda what I was thinking


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## John D

yodayoda said:


> Thats kinda what I was thinking



Same here,I only wish to insulate whats under the roof,I dont care about whats above the roofline,I just want to stop the furnace from dripping water all over everything.I bought a roll of header wrap a few yrs ago for my twin turbos i put on my cummins,and never used it,since the pipe came wrapped,Im driving myself nuts looking for it now.I hate when I know I have something,but cant find it.Im thinking even one full wrap with header wrap,then I can out fiberglass up against that,and I shouldn't have any issues after that.


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## ngzcaz

I've mentioned this before but you can wrap solargard around the pipe twice and secure it with aluminum or S.S. tape.. its all you need, very inexpensive, effective and I agree the pipe is way too hot to condense UNLESS you tried to seal all the air leaks trapping the moisture inside. Thats why roofs, walls, basements etc need to be ventilated, if they aren't, they sweat. The pipe probably doesn't sweat when there is a hot fire but could do so when its just idling along.. Just make believe the OWB is a regular house roof. Apply insulation and have ventilation. Your attic should be cold and your house warm.

Is anyone else looking at their woodpile and wondering if they cut enough ??

:greenchainsaw:


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## John D

ngzcaz said:


> I've mentioned this before but you can wrap solargard around the pipe twice and secure it with aluminum or S.S. tape.. its all you need, very inexpensive, effective and I agree the pipe is way too hot to condense UNLESS you tried to seal all the air leaks trapping the moisture inside. Thats why roofs, walls, basements etc need to be ventilated, if they aren't, they sweat. The pipe probably doesn't sweat when there is a hot fire but could do so when its just idling along.. Just make believe the OWB is a regular house roof. Apply insulation and have ventilation. Your attic should be cold and your house warm.
> 
> Is anyone else looking at their woodpile and wondering if they cut enough ??
> 
> :greenchainsaw:



Funny you mention the vent,you wouldnt want to seal the roof,as it is now nothing istrapping it inside,its forming inside as fast as its evaporating,due to the constant heat generation.I initially thought about adding a ridge vent to mine,but I'd rather fix the warm roof problem.I wil lget some solarguard today,I was worried about it melting.I figure if i get rid of most of the heat,the inside if the roof wont sweat.House roofs have different problems,not so much sweating,but ice dams at the overhangs,the poorly insulated warm roof melts the snow/ice on it,and it comes down as far as the outside walls,then hits the cold portion overhanging the soffit,and the snow/ice is bonded there.The water cant get past it,so it builds up,eventually once the water under the snow/ice level rises past the shingles overlap,it goes thru to the roof's plywood,and leaks into the home all along the 3-4 ft around the bottom edge of the roof.The OWBs water is coming from inside the roof,I dont think wood can even sweat like metal,I may be wrong though. As for my wood, pile,its a work in progress,I gather wood about as fast as i use it for now.This is my first yr with the OWB,and its been a learning experience,next yr will be easier.It is much easier now than when I first fired it up.


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## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Is anyone else looking at their woodpile and wondering if they cut enough ??
> :greenchainsaw:



I know I don't have enough wood, every 2-3 weeks I go and cut another trailer load and dump it by the boiler. This week I'm burning maple cut on Monday (unsplit 20" rounds). I can barely lift the rounds, but I get them halfway in the door and start kicking them back. Three of them lasts all night with just coals in the morning.

I think next year, after I get a shed built, I'll start off with a logtruck load and keep replacing the wood as the year goes on. One thing I'll say about my shaver is it will burn anything I can get in the door . The blower is an invaluable option when burning green wood.

Has anybody used the pipe adapter that goes from the shaver 5.5" well casing to 6" stove pipe? Will it accept a double or triple wall pipe?


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## trshmn

I had 20 4' x 4' skids stacked about 4-5' high of split mixed wood mostly hard but couple skids of pine, burning since 10/17/08, right now half gone, had three or four days in -0 to single digits but other than that it's been normal, but heat the garage alot, mostly live in garage, wife's smoking room and my tinkering room, TV, stove, fridge (beer), heater, but I lose alot of my heat there, so I'll be insulating it in a few weeks, I think I have enough to get me through but I'm still worried, have no problem with house and dhw, because heat goes to house first and then to garage, on same loop, might change that next year.


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## John D

I just finished bring in a bunch of nicely seasoned downed trees.In the last 2 days,I cut and brought about 16-10 ft lenths out of the woods behind my house for now,about a foot -16" diameter on average,a couple cherrys,mostly locust and oak.These logs were hangin in the air seasoning for a few yrs,and are ready to burn now.The skid steer,and tractor are life savers when it comes to bringing in the wood,both big time savers. I still have a full 24'x6' wide,5ft'+ tall shed full.I think ill be fine,as I cut a few hrs a week,since winter is my slow season. 
I gotta say I am really loving the exercise,and feeling of using downed dead trees to heat my home instead of foreign sourced oil. One thing I will say is the Shaver doesnt smoke with fully seasoned wood,you can barely tell its running.AS soon as I throw in something wet or some pine,then it will smoke a little.


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## ngzcaz

On the plus side, its probably safe to say if you get by this year with wood left over, cut the same amount for next year and you should have plenty ( at least here in NE Pa..................

** goods news.. I completely torn my rotator cuff so I'll be getting a break from wood lifting, splitting and cutting if I decide to get it fixed.. : - ( 
and it wasnt wood related, putting chains on an old Bolens tractor.


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## yodayoda

Man it has been a cold winter so far, my shaver is eatin the wood like there's no tomorrow.. The up side is I should know after this winter my worse case scenario for wood useage


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## ngzcaz

Fletch.. kinda curious, do you think you need more draft by putting on a chimney extension ? W/the draft door 1/3 open on my stock blower, there's more than enough and if I went your route with the Ranco mod the outside of my boiler might be red..


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## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Fletch.. kinda curious, do you think you need more draft by putting on a chimney extension ? W/the draft door 1/3 open on my stock blower, there's more than enough and if I went your route with the Ranco mod the outside of my boiler might be red..



No, I don't need more draft. I want to build a lean-to/shed to cover my boiler and wood, so I need to extend the chimney up higher. I previously used single wall to extend it when it was warmer and the smoke was hanging low, but that clogged up quick so I know I'll need to use insulated pipe. Lot's of plans to upgrade this thing in the Spring, the most important being more/new insulation.


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## ngzcaz

I'm w/ya on the insulation. I need to have a better thermostat for sure. The fill area/copper tubing access ( which I have no hot water coil ) is almost useless since you can add chemicals from the steam fix. Other than drilling for a water temp probe/thermostat I'm not sure what good it is to me. I could probably close it off permanently. It seems to be giving some guys problems unless you smear a tube of caulk around it. 

:agree2:


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## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> I'm w/ya on the insulation. I need to have a better thermostat for sure. The fill area/copper tubing access ( which I have no hot water coil ) is almost useless since you can add chemicals from the steam fix. Other than drilling for a water temp probe/thermostat I'm not sure what good it is to me. I could probably close it off permanently. It seems to be giving some guys problems unless you smear a tube of caulk around it.
> 
> :agree2:



I'd consider welding it shut. You could then add more vertical pipe to your steam fix, and end up with another 20 gallons of water in your tank, not to mention a cooler chimney pipe.


----------



## 310 german

*Anyone else have inconsistent burn?*

I don't know about anyone else but one of the biggest annoyances I have is inconsistency of the burn in the furnace. It seems to vary greatly depending on what the ash/coals situation is in the firebox. The air supply will make its way up through one or two places in the coals covering the grates. As a result, you get raging torch :angry2: until the area above the hole is burned out, then the fire slows down greatly until you knock more wood down to cover the air supply hole. I think the gaps in the grates may be too big, or too numerous. To remedy that, I will be building a new grate for next season that is also a shaker grate. As noted in an earlier post, I want to build angled sides into the firebox that will hold refractory brick. Hopefully those two things will allow better air flow, and cause the wood to somewhat self-feed downward toward the grates. I like to load the firebox up pretty good, and sometimes it works flawlessly. It always seems like it doesn't work right at the time I really need it to, though:censored: (ie: -10 degrees and I have to be gone for 10hours). Murphy's law, I suppose.:bang: 

Does anyone else have issues with the way theirs burns?


----------



## ngzcaz

For a month and a half I wasn't even raking anything, just shoving more wood into the box. Then it started angling upwards and I resorted to raking it level. The only thing I notice is black chunks in the ash pan occasionally, that may be from me raking and knocking it down prematurely.

If your water temps are Ok, the house is warm, seems its functioning as it should. I noticed what you are saying when I opened the door but if you let it alone, it has a way ( at least for me ) of leveling itself out most of the time.

Here's the biggest annoyance..by far... the blast of smoke in your face when you reload. I knew it was going to do it when I saw the chimney pipe so low in the firebox but I didnt think it would bother me as much as it does. A bypass could be made for this unit but it may kill the idea of moving the OWB in the future unless other mods are done. The only thing I've found that works is to wait until the unit is burning completely clear out the chimney, get your reload pile ready, open the door and toss it in ASAP and close the door. If you screw around the new wood starts burning and smoke it up good.


----------



## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Here's the biggest annoyance..by far... the blast of smoke in your face when you reload. I knew it was going to do it when I saw the chimney pipe so low in the firebox but I didnt think it would bother me as much as it does. A bypass could be made for this unit but it may kill the idea of moving the OWB in the future unless other mods are done. The only thing I've found that works is to wait until the unit is burning completely clear out the chimney, get your reload pile ready, open the door and toss it in ASAP and close the door. If you screw around the new wood starts burning and smoke it up good.



I think raising the boiler a foot would help with the smoke in the face, at least you wouldn't be bending over to load it. I'm thinking of using 2" black pipe to extend the legs up 12-16", it looks like the legs Shaver used are 2" black pipe. I figured I could get a coupling that's a slip joint with set screw(s) on one side, and female thread on the other so I can just cut six pieces to length, lift the boiler, and viola. That will make it easier to insulate the bottom too, my burn times suck right now I loaded at 10PM (full load), and at 5AM this morning my oil boiler was running. Went out to check the Shaver and found water temp of 145* and an empty firebox, it was in the teens last night. I've got my fingers crossed that insulation will fix this issue, it has for a guy on another forum. Nothing worse than listening to the oil boiler running after spending almost $10K (everything included) on a wood boiler.


----------



## Redbird

*air delivery*

I agree that the fire all burns out at the front, and once done the air goes over the top of the wood and out the pipe. I believe this is mainly due to the fact that when the damper is wide open (with a solenoid or manually opened) the fan is blowing right at the ash door and shooting straight up at the front making it the hottest part of the fire. I am going to make an air diffuser out of a piece of pipe, much like the burner in a gas grill, so that the air flow/pressure will be distributed more evenly under the grate. Place it in front of the fan inlet in the ash area and make it the full length of the ash box and make a handle on it so it can be removed to clean the ashes out. Hopefully this will help the fire to burn more even and increase effeciency. Makes sense in theory.


----------



## ngzcaz

Fletch.. my temp was around zero last night. Loaded her up at a little after 8 pm and reloaded about 6:30 am. Not much left, maybe another hr of heat but at least the oil burner wasn't on ( temp on the aquastat on the oil burner was a tad over 150 degrees, its normally not much higher ) and certainly enough to just throw as big logs as I want. But I have a small home and not heating a garage.. Higher firebox would indeed help the blast of smoke. Obviously, you are addressing the issue of additional insulation especially if you raise it up in the air. And speaking of the firebox, I'd rather have another foot in depth to toss on more logs than another foot or two in length for longer stuff. The longer the firebox is, the more raking and screwing around one has to do. Luckily, I have less than 6k in my setup. I feel for you having the oil burner come on. Honestly, I don't think mine could heat 170 gallons of water at that temp and maintain it. Be running constantly thereby wiping out a lot of the savings I had by making fires all year. 

Redbird.. No question many of us are going to do a lot of tinkering. By sharing ideas maybe we can all be better off. A lot of good ideas were discussed here, ones that could be applied toward any furnace, not just the Shavers.. 

:agree2:


----------



## John D

Fletcher, I think just getting insulation underneath it will help you a lot.It did me,If you insulate the bottom tight,it will help be eliminating air infiltration up the sides,and back,this along with sealing the many poorly insulated spots(rear ) should help you quite a bit.I tell you I am SO glad i upsized to a 250 .Now wish I'd went with the 290 now. Last night it was 3 degrees here,and i loaded at 1100pm,loaded as tight as I could given the door size,and checked it at 715 after putting my daughter on the bus,and I had about 1/3 of what i put in left,water temp was 179.I just threw one good sized 12" x 34" locust on it,and one small scrap 6" x30,that should last me the rest of the day.Remember my house is a Ranch,and very tightly insulated,I only burned 1000-1100 gallons of oil in a yr w 8 ppl taking showers every day,and all the heat .I think I could have went til about 1100 am today before I needed wood.


----------



## ngzcaz

If anyone is interested in a see thru steam pipe fix, take your regular 1 inch pex, heat it or take sandpaper to it and the color will come off. Mine happened to be orange, now its translucent enough to see thru. And for the time being I made it long enough to condense the steam back in the pipe. I just bent it after heating at the end upward a tad. Its enough to show me the water level in the pipe. I think condensing the water back into the pipe and subsequently back in the furnace might help a bit in the water usage. I'm thinking how much is lost with a pot on a hot stove, same probably holds true with the OWB if the vent is constantly steaming. 

This is ok short term but I'm still looking for an absolutely clear tube to mess with.


----------



## 26LCS

I tapped the inside of the 1/2" with a 3/8" pipe tap..then increase it to 1/2"...this has been working good.


----------



## ngzcaz

Thats an interesting setup. Is it an optical illusion that the water lever elbow seems to be higher than the pipe coming out of the boiler ? Would it be building pressure if it is ? Or is the water level just enough to be seen and still steam ?

Actually, this is a good time to ask what the water usage has been for those who have done the steam fix, prior to and post. How much and how often is it needed ?


----------



## 26LCS

That must be an optical illusion. I keep the water level about 1/4" below the top of the elbow.No steaming problems.Other than this all I've done to the 165 since March of 08' was add 6' to the chimney.Has worked great down to 1 below...so far


----------



## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Actually, this is a good time to ask what the water usage has been for those who have done the steam fix, prior to and post. How much and how often is it needed ?



Before: around 5 gallons per day at its worst
After: maybe a gallon per month


----------



## david78

I was adding water every day before the steam fix; opening the valve for about 30 seconds, however much that is. Now I almost never add water.


----------



## Dan-o

*steam fix*

I use to add water every day as well, usually about 30-45 seconds with the fill valve open, and usually once a week now and it only takes about 10-15 seconds to top it off.


----------



## kyboy68

Hello I am new to this forum. Seems to be a lot of good info on here about the Shaver OWB. I have the 250 model. And have the same problems as the rest have.
26LCS would you be willing to tell some more info on your set up on the overflow?


----------



## fletcher0780

kyboy68 said:


> Hello I am new to this forum. Seems to be a lot of good info on here about the Shaver OWB. I have the 250 model. And have the same problems as the rest have.
> 26LCS would you be willing to tell some more info on your set up on the overflow?



All you need to do is create a p-trap or affix a 90* pointing up to the end of the existing overflow. What we accomplish by this is to limit the surface area of water exposed to the atmosphere. 

Tell us about your installation and any specific problems you've experienced, and if you're happy with the boiler.


----------



## kyboy68

Thanks Fletcher0780 for the explantion on overflow.
My owb is setting on a pad @ 80' from my house. I stalled 4" pvc with an 1 1/2 insulation on it from owb to my house. I ran 4 pex line threw it two lines for hot water heater and two lines for the heat in house. overall I am happy with my owb.
dislikes:
No draft control.
Temp control of the water in boiler.
craftmanship of the owb.(uneven cuts on metal, backdoor will not close all way)
Likes:
cut electric bill in half and it is a comfty 73 degrees in the house


----------



## fletcher0780

Look what someone is selling on ebay now...

Kind of steep if you ask me.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Burn-less-wood-and-recover-faster-Shaver-Wood-Furnaces_W0QQitemZ150323995107QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41987QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> Look what someone is selling on ebay now...
> 
> Kind of steep if you ask me.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Burn-less-wood-and-recover-faster-Shaver-Wood-Furnaces_W0QQitemZ150323995107QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41987QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Also kind of ironic that you guys did yours,and a few weeks later he pops up selling them.Shavers been around what 36 yrs,and hes a dealer,now he is selling them? I gotta wonder if he even used one before trying to sell them.I dont know what the blower costs,depending on that price i figure $80-100 over that is fair.I actually thought about removing the blower,and just using the actuator on the 3 bolt opening with just natural draft.I bet I save some wood,but get a slightly slower recovery time.


----------



## yodayoda

John D said:


> Also kind of ironic that you guys did yours,and a few weeks later he pops up selling them.Shavers been around what 36 yrs,and hes a dealer,now he is selling them? I gotta wonder if he even used one before trying to sell them.I don't know what the blower costs,depending on that price i figure $80-100 over that is fair.I actually thought about removing the blower,and just using the actuator on the 3 bolt opening with just natural draft.I bet I save some wood,but get a slightly slower recovery time.


I was trying to figure out a way to have a natural draft and blower setup. Maybe 2 thermostats, 1st stat closes natural draft at say 170 degrees , 2nd stat runs only the blower, maybe shutting off blower at 155 degrees. That way you could have the best of both worlds,natural draft for less wood consumption, fan would kick on if water temp drops to low. My only problem is it would be nice to be able to adjust each draft independent of each other?


----------



## fletcher0780

yodayoda said:


> I was trying to figure out a way to have a natural draft and blower setup. Maybe 2 thermostats, 1st stat closes natural draft at say 170 degrees , 2nd stat runs only the blower, maybe shutting off blower at 155 degrees. That way you could have the best of both worlds,natural draft for less wood consumption, fan would kick on if water temp drops to low. My only problem is it would be nice to be able to adjust each draft independent of each other?



You could just use a two stage aquastat, both ranco and dwyer have them. In theory, all off could be 185*, set point 1 could open the draft, but not the blower at 180*, and set point 2 could turn on the blower at 175*. I don't think you'd get enough draft to make much of a difference on the real cold days, but it would probably work well as it gets warmer.


----------



## robowing

John D said:


> Also kind of ironic that you guys did yours,and a few weeks later he pops up selling them.Shavers been around what 36 yrs,and hes a dealer,now he is selling them? I gotta wonder if he even used one before trying to sell them.I dont know what the blower costs,depending on that price i figure $80-100 over that is fair.I actually thought about removing the blower,and just using the actuator on the 3 bolt opening with just natural draft.I bet I save some wood,but get a slightly slower recovery time.



He has been a Shaver dealer for a while and puts these on all stoves he sells as standard equipment. Funny, I ran across this site after I found his and sent him an email asking him for help on all the problems you guys have. He was nice enough to explain what he does and I asked him if he sells the fan mod seperately. He put one together for me and I guess he sees theres a market for this, and there is. not everyone has the tools and want to modify these things by themselves. I can do alot, but he made it easy for me and I am greatful for that.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*ranco thermostat*

Hi,I am brand new to this forum but not new to Shaver shortcomings.
Please, would someone help me with a model # and source for a ranco thermostat.


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## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> Hi,I am brand new to this forum but not new to Shaver shortcomings.
> Please, would someone help me with a model # and source for a ranco thermostat.



here you go: http://www.iaqsource.com/product.php?p=ranco_etc-111000&product=110270

just curious, how did you find this discussion?


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## fify59thatsit

*Shaver walking wounded*

HI,I found you folks searching high and low for help with the Sybil like behavior of my Billy Ben outdoor heating appliance.
I have quite a long story to tell,but I will leave that for another time.


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> HI,I found you folks searching high and low for help with the Sybil like behavior of my Billy Ben outdoor heating appliance.
> I have quite a long story to tell,but I will leave that for another time.



There is quite a lot of good info in this thread if you read it beginning to end. Share your story when you get a chance.


----------



## projectsho89

fify59thatsit said:


> Hi,I am brand new to this forum but not new to Shaver shortcomings.
> Please, would someone help me with a model # and source for a ranco thermostat.



I just bought one from Honey Run Apiaries at www.rancoetc.com

Got it in within 3 days.... Really fast shipment.

Was going to install it this afternoon, but, by the time I found everything I needed (after getting home two hours later than expected) I ran out of sunlight and time. Will install it Saturday.

Which model depends on what you want - single or dual stage and with or without analog output for remote display/sensing. I bought the single stage with analog out - ETC-1111

Steve


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## fify59thatsit

*Billy Ben heater*



fletcher0780 said:


> There is quite a lot of good info in this thread if you read it beginning to end. Share your story when you get a chance.



Thanks for the fast response on the thermostat info.
For a while ,I thought I might wander in the wilderness forever.
This sight has already shown me some much needed daylight. 
I like to tinker and try to improve stuff ,but I had about hit the wall with my Billy Ben heater.
Maybe I should not call it that,but it's slightly better than swearing.
I have the ranco thermostat on the way and may do some type of mod to the draft fan.I liked the simple idea of using a flapper [ much like a dryer vent]that I read about earlier today.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*Things are better*

I resealed that crappy door over the copper coil again and this time piled some weight on it for good measure. Also did the steam pipe fix with very good results so far.The ranco thermo will be here on Monday, looking forward to that fix as well.
I guess I should Mention this my 3rd winter with my b+b heater.
Just for fun,Have any of you out there met Billy in the flesh?I have.


----------



## yodayoda

fify59 I'd like to hear your story when you get the chance. Has any one else noticed that sometimes the water sounds like it's starting to boil at the very front top area of the stove(above the wood loading door) I have noticed this several times when it has been really cold out, the water temp at the rear of the stove at pump outlet has been as low as 145 degrees, but it sounds like it is boiling up front. When I have noticed it has been when the stove is loaded fairly full of wood, most of the grate is covered so the fire burns mostly at the very front of the grate. I'm thinking it creates a hot spot there. It's hard to believe the water could be that much hotter in one area and not mix with the colder water. I don't know what else the noise could be, it sure sounds like water that is just starting to boil. I was thinking of running one of my return lines to the front of the stove? or maybe even if it is starting to boil it doesn't hurt anything? any thoughts? Oh also I am using both hookups, 1 for the house and 1 for my shop, both pumps run all the time.


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## fify59thatsit

*front boiling*

Mine has done the same thing,Now I keep the fire in the back close to back wall of fire box where the pump would pull in water.
It seems to keep the grate open better with less ash covering it up.
The compartment [ for lack of a better term] created by the back of the firebox to the water jacket is about 5" wide .
While this piece of plate is not welded to the water jacket ,[it holds up the back of the fire box inside the water jacket] looks to me to be almost impossible for much circulation from front to back to take place.
So folks we are pulling all of our heat from this very narrow compartment.
There is space for some holes that could have been cut in this plate that might have made this situation better , easily done during fabrication. Maybe Billy will make this modification in the future.
Perhaps the newer models are not like this. There was only one model when I got mine.
This is my 3rd winter with ole Billy Ben












th


----------



## yodayoda

The problem with that is the chimney is in the way, its hard to get enough wood in it, I think this summer when I rip all the siding off of it to insulate it better, I may run some steel pipe on top of the furnace, drill a hole in the top front of the water jacket and run the pipe down into the water,then hook my return line to this and cap the original return at the bottom of the furnace. I still can't believe they don't insulate the bottom of the water jacket. I have been banking snow around the furnace all winter to try and keep the wind from blowing under it. I know there is a lot of heat loss at the bottom because it melts the snow and I have to keep rebanking it up.

On the upside it has been warmer the last couple a days lower 30s in the day teens at night, it works great in this type weather. It probably doesn't't get much colder than that in Arkansas. 


I saw another member on this site originally ordered a shaver, then canceled and got a Natures Comfort. I had never heard of that brand so I went to their website. It looks like they copied the shaver, I do like the basic design of the shaver, round firebox 3/8 thick, chimney sits low in the firebox. The natures comfort looks like they took the shaver and refined it, looks very impressive on their website.(but then again so did the shaver)

So if your considering buying a shaver, seriously consider spending a little more and buy a natures comfort


----------



## fify59thatsit

In the spring I intend to reach through the door covering the roll of copper and 
torch a few holes in the back plate to let water circulate better.
I have another one of these things that hasn't been hooked up yet and it looks like it's doable .This spare one was to sell to help pay for the cost of going to Salem,Ak to pick them up.
I can't tell you how glad I didn't sell it to someone, for with my luck they surely would have sued me.


----------



## yodayoda

fify59thatsit said:


> In the spring I intend to reach through the door covering the roll of copper and
> torch a few holes in the back plate to let water circulate better.
> I have another one of these things that hasn't been hooked up yet and it looks like it's doable .This spare one was to sell to help pay for the cost of going to Salem,Ak to pick them up.
> I can't tell you how glad I didn't sell it to someone, for with my luck they surely would have sued me.



You've had money tied up in a second spare furnace for 3 years? That sucks
When you met Billy could you hear banjo music coming from somewhere?
Just kidding, that wasn't nice


----------



## fletcher0780

yodayoda said:


> I may run some steel pipe on top of the furnace, drill a hole in the top front of the water jacket and run the pipe down into the water,then hook my return line to this and cap the original return at the bottom of the furnace.



There is a guy that did this on another forum and reported excellent results, I'm thinking of doing the same thing.

http://**************************/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9ea05eabd9f8764eb453d7c3fd7d416e&topic=46.msg301#msg301


----------



## fify59thatsit

yodayoda said:


> You've had money tied up in a second spare furnace for 3 years? That sucks
> When you met Billy could you hear banjo music coming from somewhere?
> Just kidding, that wasn't nice



It's Better than being sued by somebody who may not love these things the way we do.
I liked Billy then and still do a little. Ben not so much.
To me this whole deal was a classic bait and switch.
I looked at the website and saw this perfectly wonderful furnace with the simple design and super firebox I craved after looking at all the other boiler's out there. It's got a roll of copper to heat water,a water heater thermostat to control your heat for Pete's sake. Talk about simple. 
Then I pick it up and discover that it is actually a troll,.an ugly toad nothing like the beautiful thing on the website.
But,maybe it's not that ugly.Maybe I can do a little here a little there and it won't be so ugly.maybe I can learn to use it.After all I did this to my self,I can't quit now. 
As for banjo music,I do remember a beautiful song about heating a 5000 sq. ft. old farm house, a hot tub all with railroad ties. Yes it was a beautiful song.


----------



## 26LCS

Boy I don't get it.Our 165 has been workin fine with no mods but an elbow on the vent to keep it from steamin, and some extra chimney height..Bought two extra therm-o-disc thermostats just in case-they're still sitting on the shelf..blower's been working fine,just close the shutter a little during a warm spell..maybe set the temp down a hair..it maintains an almost constant 170-190 temp to the house...using a re-circ pump for the DHW seemed to help too..DHW is better than what the oil burner provided..and free...as for the chimney sweating under the roof,I don't know..been looking for it but nothing yet....could be a poorly sealed coil cover causing it...Just my 2 cents---J


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## fify59thatsit

*Quality*



26LCS said:


> Boy I don't get it.Our 165 has been workin fine with no mods but an elbow on the vent to keep it from steamin, and some extra chimney height..Bought two extra therm-o-disc thermostats just in case-they're still sitting on the shelf..blower's been working fine,just close the shutter a little during a warm spell..maybe set the temp down a hair..it maintains an almost constant 170-190 temp to the house...using a re-circ pump for the DHW seemed to help too..DHW is better than what the oil burner provided..and free...as for the chimney sweating under the roof,I don't know..been looking for it but nothing yet....could be a poorly sealed coil cover causing it...Just my 2 cents---J


Before a couple days ago I had no idea as to what was going on with other people's Shaver Boilers good or bad.
After reading many posts, some good some bad,26LCS might have helped to make the point that there is no assurance of quality while the price is the same.
I have a question for all Shaver Owners.
Who built your furnace?
In the fall of 06 I called Ben trying to buy a furnace from him.
It was hard to get through to buy one probably because He thought I was a pissed off customer wanting to know where their furnace was.
In One of my conversations with him, he told me he was building a better furnace than Billy was. I could go to Ben's or Billy's to pick it up.I wanted the real deal so I went to Arkansas.
 So when I get to Salem and ask Billy about this ,First he laugh's and says ya I hear their doors fall off .Then much more seriously Billy says I Hope he has his factory credentials in order. I was a little taken aback by this. 
This is probably just useless info to most so take it with grain of salt.
This is web site is for improving Shaver furnaces .I am done talking about the past and will speak no more about it.


----------



## yodayoda

26LCS said:


> Boy I don't get it.Our 165 has been workin fine with no mods but an elbow on the vent to keep it from steamin, and some extra chimney height..Bought two extra therm-o-disc thermostats just in case-they're still sitting on the shelf..blower's been working fine,just close the shutter a little during a warm spell..maybe set the temp down a hair..it maintains an almost constant 170-190 temp to the house...using a re-circ pump for the DHW seemed to help too..DHW is better than what the oil burner provided..and free...as for the chimney sweating under the roof,I don't know..been looking for it but nothing yet....could be a poorly sealed coil cover causing it...Just my 2 cents---J



I am happy with my 165 when its above 0 degrees outside it works fine. When it gets -25 and windy the furnace can't make enough heat and I think the main reason is it's not insulated good enough. The entire bottom of the water jacket exposed to -25? And a lesser complaint is the uninsulated door.

The lack of insulation underneath in a way isn't that big a deal insomuch is that's something I can fix myself (now that I am even aware of it, I wouldn't have even known about it if I read it in this or another forum)

I will know next winter if I will be able to recommend it to anyone or not, if insulating it helps as much as I am hoping it will I would probably still recommend it to someone who is a little bit handy


----------



## fify59thatsit

*Blower mod*

I want to do the blower mod but have pipes intruding into the room I need, So am going to use a blast gate used for woodworking dust collection instead of a flapper.Found a cheap solenoid on ebay.


----------



## projectsho89

fify59thatsit said:


> ....I am done talking about the past and will speak no more about it.



Are you kidding? That's what makes it interesting around here!

Steve


----------



## yodayoda

projectsho89, your the fella I was speaking of earlier who canceled their shaver and bought a Natures Comfort. I looked on their website, looks like a shaver but alot nicer, how do you like it? is the entire firebox 3/8 thick? the tube and the endplates? also the waterjacket is thicker than a shaver, according to their website that is. I wish I knew about them sooner


----------



## projectsho89

yodayoda said:


> projectsho89, your the fella I was speaking of earlier who canceled their shaver and bought a Natures Comfort. I looked on their website, looks like a shaver but alot nicer, how do you like it? is the entire firebox 3/8 thick? the tube and the endplates? also the waterjacket is thicker than a shaver, according to their website that is. I wish I knew about them sooner



Yeah, heavy plate steel. Nice unit although I could use one with a bigger firebox....

Big differences include nice build quality (looks like it was built by a pro, not a monkey on crystal meth), chimney goes almost to the bottom of the fire chamber, insulated door, no sucky, leaky cover for the hot water loop (marketing gimmick - dumb idea for the cost), real ash drawer, firebrick instead of a ready-to-warp grate, etc.

Ironically, it was an apparent ex-Shaver dealer out east that turned me on to them, I'd never heard of them before then

Well, that's what the hillbillies (and his sidekick) get for appearing incompetent in running a business......

Steve


----------



## yodayoda

(looks like it was built by a pro, not a monkey on crystal meth), 
wow, thats harsh, Funny though,:monkey: I've been laughing all night about it


----------



## fify59thatsit

*Owners manuel*

I sure would like to see one of those Shaver 41 page owner's manual.
Back in 06 there was only one model called Shaver's Hot Water Wood Furnace.
My manual is three regular size pieces of paper folded in half


----------



## Butch(OH)

projectsho89 said:


> Yeah, heavy plate steel. Nice unit although I could use one with a bigger firebox....
> 
> Big differences include nice build quality (looks like it was built by a pro, not a monkey on crystal meth),
> 
> Steve




LOL, My daily chuckle has taken place first thing in the AM


----------



## fify59thatsit

*Owners manuel*



fletcher0780 said:


> I think it's on their webpage: http://shaverboiler.com/



This links to this forum


----------



## projectsho89

fify59thatsit said:


> I sure would like to see one of those Shaver 41 page owner's manual.
> Back in 06 there was only one model called Shaver's Hot Water Wood Furnace.
> My manual is three regular size pieces of paper folded in half




Try here: http://www.shaverfurnace.com/INSTALLATION-INSTRUCTIONS.doc


----------



## fify59thatsit

*manual*

Thanks ,the download worked fine.
Much more info than the 3 sheets of typing paper folded over I got .


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> Thanks ,the download worked fine.
> Much more info than the 3 sheets of typing paper folded over I got .



What gets me is 41 pages,and I learned a lot more important info about the Shaver on here than in the 41 page manual.Just goes to show you how much good info is on this site,and how willing the members are to share.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*water treatment*

Talk to me about water treatment,what to use.
Until I got a handle on keeping water in it [mostly lost to steam]it's been impossible.so much make up water dilutes the treatment stuff'


----------



## Dan-o

*Fellow Hoosier*

Here is the link for the water treatment:

http://www.woodboilersolutions.com/

You just give them a call or email them and order a water sample kit, send them a fill water sample and then they send you 2 chemicals plus whatever else they think you need.

Excellent customer service there, they even get back to you very quickly.


----------



## projectsho89

Dan-o said:


> Here is the link for the water treatment:
> 
> http://www.woodboilersolutions.com/
> 
> You just give them a call or email them and order a water sample kit, send them a fill water sample and then they send you 2 chemicals plus whatever else they think you need.
> 
> Excellent customer service there, they even get back to you very quickly.



...Good thing THAT service was out-sourced out of Salem, AR....


----------



## Ash wacker

*door insulation*

I am brand new to this so bare with me... I purchased the Shaver 290 this year and it has been probably the smartest thing I have done. I agree that there are some short comings on this machine but I think it is pretty sound. My question is did putting insulation in the door help with the goo that builds up on the sill?


----------



## fletcher0780

Ash wacker said:


> I am brand new to this so bare with me... I purchased the Shaver 290 this year and it has been probably the smartest thing I have done. I agree that there are some short comings on this machine but I think it is pretty sound. My question is did putting insulation in the door help with the goo that builds up on the sill?



nope


----------



## Ash wacker

Well that stinks. My ashpan door has as much build up on it as the inside of the firebox. Everytime I open the door a gush of water and tar run down the front and gets all over the door and siding.


----------



## John D

Ash wacker said:


> Well that stinks. My ashpan door has as much build up on it as the inside of the firebox. Everytime I open the door a gush of water and tar run down the front and gets all over the door and siding.



I am not getting that on mine.The only time i ever got water out the door is when the OWB is cooled down to 140ish.It hasnt been below 140 since the week i put it in,once i got the blower/aquastat mods done,it hasnt went below 170.What temps are you running the OWB at?


----------



## Ash wacker

I haven't done any mods to it but I have the thermostat set at 165 and it is keeping my house at 70 degrees and my shop at 60 when I am out there. I turn it down when I come inside. My blower seems to cycle alright except when it was 0 to 10 degrees it was on most of the time.


----------



## John D

165 on a factory stat is nice and warm,probably running 165-185 ish. I just stoked mine for the night,and looked good,there's nothing on my ash pan worth mentioning.


----------



## yodayoda

Ash wacker said:


> Well that stinks. My ashpan door has as much build up on it as the inside of the firebox. Everytime I open the door a gush of water and tar run down the front and gets all over the door and siding.



Mine did that when I first started burning last fall, Since the beginning of november it has not. I think in my case it was the combination of the warm weather causing the furnace to be shut down and smolder to much and I was burning some old pine wood, I think I read somewhere some woods, especially pine, have alot of tar that can cause this problem


----------



## Ash wacker

I put some insulation in the door and this morning no water. I mostly burn ash,maple,some beech. I had about 10 cords of dry cut for the winter but it chewed that up pretty fast. I have been cutting ash the last couple weekends and it last longer but lots of creosilt build up. The unit faces to the west and thats were the weather comes from so I thought maybe the cold wind on the hot door might be causing the water build up.


----------



## yodayoda

Ash wacker said:


> I put some insulation in the door and this morning no water. I mostly burn ash,maple,some beech. I had about 10 cords of dry cut for the winter but it chewed that up pretty fast. I have been cutting ash the last couple weekends and it last longer but lots of creosilt build up. The unit faces to the west and thats were the weather comes from so I thought maybe the cold wind on the hot door might be causing the water build up.



What did you use for insulation on the door?


----------



## Ash wacker

yodayoda said:


> What did you use for insulation on the door?



Unfaced batting


----------



## John D

Ash wacker said:


> Unfaced batting



Same here,mines only in a week,and its holding up well.Door is noticably cooler to the touch,and inside the door stays creosote free now,no buildup at all.


----------



## Ash wacker

I want to do some of the other mods I have seen in this thread but I will wait till the summer to do them. This one was pretty easy and it seems to help.


----------



## fletcher0780

Ash wacker said:


> I want to do some of the other mods I have seen in this thread but I will wait till the summer to do them. This one was pretty easy and it seems to help.



you can't go wrong with the ranco mod


----------



## fify59thatsit

*ranco thermostat*

any reason why the ranco thermostat can't be hung outside the furnace?
My boiler is under roof ,rather not open the back door every time I want to check the temp.


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> any reason why the ranco thermostat can't be hung outside the furnace?
> My boiler is under roof ,rather not open the back door every time I want to check the temp.



Nope, I'm going to move mine once I build a shed.


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> any reason why the ranco thermostat can't be hung outside the furnace?
> My boiler is under roof ,rather not open the back door every time I want to check the temp.



Mines going in a waterproof box w clear front cover(plexiglass)in the front this summer,after I gut it,and reinsulate it.This way temp checks,and changes can be made in seconds without going around back.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*ranco outside*

Wonder if it would fit in a plastic box like you see over thermostats in offices and such?


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> Wonder if it would fit in a plastic box like you see over thermostats in offices and such?



Once I tear is down this summer,and pull the ranco off the back,Ill try a few different boxes. I was thinking any watertight box with an overhang over the door,and I can alwasy make a plexiglass cover,or cut a window in the cover with plexi.


----------



## fletcher0780

they make a weather tight enclosure for it


----------



## Windwalker7

I have a question about the Ranco.(I've only seen it in photos)


Other than the two wires that interupt the circut, are there any other wires? 

Does it need any other wires hooked to it to feed the power for temp. display?


----------



## fletcher0780

mine has three wires: a hot feed, a neutral, and a switched hot (to the blower). I dow have a jumper inside from the hot feed to the com also.


----------



## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> they make a weather tight enclosure for it



Once again,you come thru with very valueable info to help me get my shaver where i want it, thanks again!


----------



## projectsho89

John D said:


> Once again,you come thru with very valueable info to help me get my shaver where i want it, thanks again!



They offer a "NEMA4 " model that has the water resistant case.

Steve


----------



## fify59thatsit

*usable heat*

My boiler is under a shed with lots of added insulation above,under and around it. After adding a ranco I now know how hot the water is.
Water temps around 200 yield cooler Temps out of register than when water temps at 180 or so.
What's up with that?


----------



## david78

I really hate to see those heat waves rolling out of the stack on my furnace:angry2: I'd rather have those BTU's coming in the house. So here's an idea for you guys to think about, shoot down, etc. I thought about wrapping/coiling flexible copper tubing around the stack; one end of the pipe down into the bottom of the water jacket (suction end), the other end just dumping in the top; small circulator pump to keep the water moving. Wrap insulation around the stack. Since my furnace is under an overhang, if I started where the stack exits the jacket, and stopped at the underside of the overhang, I could have copper tubing around about 3' of the hottest part of the stack; about 50' of tubing. Nothing exposed to rain, snow, etc. Seems like I'd get significant heat transfer. Enough to make it worthwhile? Enough to cause creosote problems from a cooler stack? Any thoughts?


----------



## John D

I was going to home make something along the lines of this reclaimer. Not sure what I stand to gain yet,but it will be something I try this summer,not now.With the flames I often have shooting out my stack,I know there is a ton of heat going out,wesp when the boilers firing with the blower on,even idling Id think theres some heat to capture.

http://timberwolfstoves.com/reclaimer_brochure.pdf


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*First picture of improved furnace*

Hi!

Here is the first picture of the improved furnace.

Grommets are now being used instead of silicone, front and back and at the overflow, for a much neater application and appearance.

The new thermostat is a big improvement, as you know.

A solenoid activated fan is in the works. It takes a different flange.

A sticker now tells people to seal the top plate (because not many people read the manual).

More coming...

Best regards,

Ben


----------



## Ash wacker

Now with these improvements that the factory has made will I be able to get these upgrades through the factory for my furnace?


----------



## ngzcaz

Better yet, since this forum was a catalyst for an improved furnace, how about some of those upgrades gratis to the contributors of this forum especially an improved thermostat ? Mine fluctuates as much as 30 degrees before the fan comes on. Shaver received a wealth of information/criticism and even some praise from these discussions. And we, the owners, have been putting up with and modifying issues that a customer shouldn't have had to deal with. Apparently 30 years ago no one cared. But this is 2009 and these things still arent what they should be and the technology for improvement existed for a couple of decades. I'm not just talking about Shaver, none of the manufacturers took the bull by the horn the way they should have. At least Shaver isnt having some of the stainless problems some other manufacturers are dealing with.

I'm gratified to see some of see improvements incorporated by Shaver. The one issue that no one seemed to argue was that the basics of the stove were sound. It was because some of these things were so ridiculously simple to rectify made us scratch our collective heads. At the VERY least, an option to purchase ( if possible ) at a discounted rate the improvements that were touted by this forum.


:angrysoapbox:


----------



## fify59thatsit

*circulate*



david78 said:


> I really hate to see those heat waves rolling out of the stack on my furnace:angry2: I'd rather have those BTU's coming in the house. So here's an idea for you guys to think about, shoot down, etc. I thought about wrapping/coiling flexible copper tubing around the stack; one end of the pipe down into the bottom of the water jacket (suction end), the other end just dumping in the top; small circulator pump to keep the water moving. Wrap insulation around the stack. Since my furnace is under an overhang, if I started where the stack exits the jacket, and stopped at the underside of the overhang, I could have copper tubing around about 3' of the hottest part of the stack; about 50' of tubing. Nothing exposed to rain, snow, etc. Seems like I'd get significant heat transfer. Enough to make it worthwhile? Enough to cause creosote problems from a cooler stack? Any thoughts?



I truly believe using a pump to circulate the water from the front of the 
water jacket to the back would yield lots more btu's for the house.
That skinny 5" chamber behind the firebox from which hot water is drawn from and pumped back to is closed off from a good deal of the total volume of water in the boiler.A few slots or holes in that back piece of plate would be easy [allowing more circulation] to do when the boilers are fabricated and also a longer return pipe going farther to the front of the boiler .Then maybe another pump would not be needed? It might also stop that boiling noise sometimes heard at the front of the boiler if the water was better stirred up.


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> I truly believe using a pump to circulate the water from the front of the
> water jacket to the back would yield lots more btu's for the house.
> That skinny 5" chamber behind the firebox from which hot water is drawn from and pumped back to is closed off from a good deal of the total volume of water in the boiler.A few slots or holes in that back piece of plate would be easy [allowing more circulation] to do when the boilers are fabricated and also a longer return pipe going farther to the front of the boiler .Then maybe another pump would not be needed? It might also stop that boiling noise sometimes heard at the front of the boiler if the water was better stirred up.



You read my mind! I plan to pull my water from the top port in the rear of the boiler and run a pipe along the top to the front, where I will drill a hole in the top and weld in a flange. My returning water will be forced onto the hottest part of the boiler. I would like to weld the cover in the back shut too, because it's a pain in the ass. My cover is very warped, I'm missing the center tab of steel on the water jacket, and there is barely enough lip to seal. If I didn't have the water coil, I'd weld the cover up, and either cap the vent on the side, or 90* it and run a hard line up above the top of the water jacket. I bet I'd fit 20 gallons more water in there. Maybe I'll junk the coil and do it, I haven't hooked the coil up yet anyway.


----------



## fify59thatsit

fletcher0780 said:


> You read my mind! I plan to pull my water from the top port in the rear of the boiler and run a pipe along the top to the front, where I will drill a hole in the top and weld in a flange. My returning water will be forced onto the hottest part of the boiler. I would like to weld the cover in the back shut too, because it's a pain in the ass. My cover is very warped, I'm missing the center tab of steel on the water jacket, and there is barely enough lip to seal. If I didn't have the water coil, I'd weld the cover up, and either cap the vent on the side, or 90* it and run a hard line up above the top of the water jacket. I bet I'd fit 20 gallons more water in there. Maybe I'll junk the coil and do it, I haven't hooked the coil up yet anyway.[/QUOTE\\
> 
> I refuse to go through another winter with that water steaming, water leaking excuse for a bad word I can't say right now.
> Plant managers in China can get shot for shoddy workmanship like that.
> I plan to do something to help with circulation over the summer, the extra twenty gal. water sounds like a plan.I may move the intake for the pump up a little higher.Up closer to the hotter water.


----------



## John D

I will def be running a water return to the front bottom as well this summer.When loading you can hear the water simmering above the front of the firebox with 175 degree water.That tells you the circulation is poor in that area.Id like another 20 gallons of water capacity as well,but I dont think im ready to weld the cover,its given me zero trouble,so im not going to fix what isnt broken,besides i like being able to access inside the water box,even if its just to see what it looks like,and what extent it is rusting if at all.
I am almost thinking of just building a OWB like i was going to initially. It may not be done by next winter,but ill have the shaver still,so no worrys. This time I will build it w 400 gallons minimum water,and a much wider,taller firebox.The length is fine,also the door needs to be 2ftx2 ft minimum.If time permits,I would love to build one. Im thinking a 1000 gal propane cylinder would be the perfect inside cylinder at 42",if I cut one in 1/2,it would be 6ft long ,42" around.I'd have enough for 2 units.Weld a neck on it,and it would take 70" logs,and be 20% wider and taller.Build a water jacket around it,4 full sheets of 4x8 steel for the box,and another partial for the rear,and with proper insulation,I should be able to get 24 hr burn times,and decent recovery.A propane cylinder should easily hold up since it was built to handle 250psi and 650 degrees.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*lp tanks*

I believe propane tanks have the thickness of the tank on a label. Some times the ends are thicker than the body.
Are you going to use some type of log lift for wood that big?


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> I believe propane tanks have the thickness of the tank on a label. Some times the ends are thicker than the body.
> Are you going to use some type of log lift for wood that big?



No log lift,just throw in bunch of wood.Only time I leave stuff full length now is if its real small. Im only loading 24-30" deep now in a 50" firebox.I want the long firebox more for water capacity,and heat exchange area,and to have for long days when i cant get to the OWB more than once a day.


----------



## fletcher0780

ShaverFurnace said:


> Hi!
> 
> Here is the first picture of the improved furnace.
> 
> Grommets are now being used instead of silicone, front and back and at the overflow, for a much neater application and appearance.
> 
> The new thermostat is a big improvement, as you know.
> 
> A solenoid activated fan is in the works. It takes a different flange.
> 
> A sticker now tells people to seal the top plate (because not many people read the manual).
> 
> More coming...
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben



What do you do with the Ranco probe? Did you make provisions for a dry well?


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Ranco probe positioning*



fletcher0780 said:


> What do you do with the Ranco probe? Did you make provisions for a dry well?




Hi Steve,

The probe sits in a dry well - with dialectric grease - for a more accurate reading.

However, it is my understanding that it can sit right in the water.

Best regards,

Ben


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*A nicer look*

Here are some more pictures. Nothing that was mentioned here but it gives the Shaver a nicer, more finished look.


----------



## fletcher0780

ShaverFurnace said:


> Here are some more pictures. Nothing that was mentioned here but it gives the Shaver a nicer, more finished look.



It's getting there, now you need a better light, a rear cover with rubber gasket that is bolted in place, put a 90* on the overflow tube, add the damper mod, insulate the firebox door, include the chimney adapter (or use standard 6" pipe), and add more insulation to the boiler in general (including the bottom).


----------



## projectsho89

fletcher0780 said:


> It's getting there, now you need a better light, a rear cover with rubber gasket that is bolted in place, put a 90* on the overflow tube, add the damper mod, insulate the firebox door, include the chimney adapter (or use standard 6" pipe), and add more insulation to the boiler in general (including the bottom).



Why don't you go ahead and put a latch on the rear door while you're at it.

Steve


----------



## fify59thatsit

*return water*



fletcher0780 said:


> You read my mind! I plan to pull my water from the top port in the rear of the boiler and run a pipe along the top to the front, where I will drill a hole in the top and weld in a flange. My returning water will be forced onto the hottest part of the boiler. I would like to weld the cover in the back shut too, because it's a pain in the ass. My cover is very warped, I'm missing the center tab of steel on the water jacket, and there is barely enough lip to seal. If I didn't have the water coil, I'd weld the cover up, and either cap the vent on the side, or 90* it and run a hard line up above the top of the water jacket. I bet I'd fit 20 gallons more water in there. Maybe I'll junk the coil and do it, I haven't hooked the coil up yet anyway.



I piped my return line to the front and on top of the boiler using some galv. pipe today.
The boiler temp was hard to keep under 200*before, now around 175*to 180* with hotter air out of the registers.
I can't say this will help anybody else but so far I like it.


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> I piped my return line to the front and on top of the boiler using some galv. pipe today.
> The boiler temp was hard to keep under 200*before, now around 175*to 180* with hotter air out of the registers.
> I can't say this will help anybody else but so far I like it.



Very nice! Without changing your OWB temp settings is your water temp coming out of the OWB hotter now?How is it hard to keep temps under 200? Do you still have the stock air door,and blower setup? Most guys here complain they cant get it hot enough due to poor insulation.I have no trouble keeping mine hot either,since my blower mods.I hear water sizzling above the door whenever i load the OWB,ill peak around back,and temp is 178 or so at the back.top where Ive got my copper tube for the temp picup on the Ranco.So your returning water to the front top? I want to run mine to the front,and bottom.Does yours sizzle when your loading it?


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> I piped my return line to the front and on top of the boiler using some galv. pipe today.
> The boiler temp was hard to keep under 200*before, now around 175*to 180* with hotter air out of the registers.
> I can't say this will help anybody else but so far I like it.



Let's see some pic's and a more detailed description when you get a chance please.


----------



## Ash wacker

Well, it's been two weeks and the insulation in the door is working very good. The outside is a little burned but the door is cool to the touch and I don't get the goo build up in the sill as much. I also put the steam fix on and it works great. Two weeks and I had to open the valve for about 30 seconds tonight. Thanks for the upgrades and I will work on it some more this summer... more insulation, fix the chimney sweating problem, ranco thermosatat.


----------



## ngzcaz

So who besides me managed to pull off the silicone caulking by the back side of the door ?

:censored:


----------



## fify59thatsit

*return water*



fletcher0780 said:


> Let's see some pic's and a more detailed description when you get a chance please.



In the Fall I had an idea to pull intake water from the front of the furnace so I torched a hole in the piece of angle iron on the dhw door .you know the one with the two 1/2 round holes cut in it for the coil of copper tubing.
Having done that ,I cut and threaded a piece of pipe with a downward curve,stuck it in the hole,put on a 90* and connected it to the pump.
The results were poor most likely do to air in the heat exchanger.I learned that here just lately.
Anyway,I used the same hole to plumb in the pipe as a return this time with much better results for me .I tried to aim the pipe at the center top of the fire box wanting to put return water on both sides of the water jacket.
This was a test and over the summer I will do it more like your idea .
I do think splitting the return water to both sides would be of benefit.


----------



## fify59thatsit

John D said:


> Very nice! Without changing your OWB temp settings is your water temp coming out of the OWB hotter now?How is it hard to keep temps under 200? Do you still have the stock air door,and blower setup? Most guys here complain they cant get it hot enough due to poor insulation.I have no trouble keeping mine hot either,since my blower mods.I hear water sizzling above the door whenever i load the OWB,ill peak around back,and temp is 178 or so at the back.top where Ive got my copper tube for the temp picup on the Ranco.So your returning water to the front top? I want to run mine to the front,and bottom.Does yours sizzle when your loading it?



Ive had the ranco for a couple three weeks so I did not know water temps had been that high. The old water heater thermostat things readout was hard to see.
The blower is stock for now, solenoid on the way.
I have lots more insulation all around the boiler, big plus.
None of the wood furnaces out there have enough insulation , just my opinion.
I think return water on top where the water seems to be the hottest may calm the boiler down some, after all the idea is to get the return water back up to operating temps to it send back to the house.
This mod is new [ so far no sizzle]so we'll see as we go along.
The mods I have learned here have helped me and my hat is off to you all.
Could be this mod may help some of you. Luck to you. John


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> I have lots more insulation all around the boiler, big plus.
> None of the wood furnaces out there have enough insulation , just my opinion.
> John



I'm interested in hearing more about your insulation. 1/4" of solarguard wrapped around the water jacket is nowhere near enough insulation (this is not only my opinion, I have verified it with a thermal imager). I was supposed to get Shavers cold weather package (two wraps of solarguard) but there is only one layer on my boiler. I plan to add 1.5" rigid hi density foam boards over the existing insulation, and in between the square tubing frame this summer, not to mention on the bottom of the water jacket. I am documenting all my improvements and will soon post them on a website linked to a few domain names I recently bought


----------



## John D

I may get mine sprayed this summer,Im not sure until i uncover it what path i will take.I have a local dealer here for http://www.icynene.com/icynene-insulation/. I can throw mine on the trailer,and bring it to him to save me money,I may just go this route.
Honestly ,if i find this shaver a home,I may build my own,as I would like the unit to be about 60% larger,and hold double the water.I'd really like to have 24 hr burn times,and i know I can with that sized unit.I want a 24x24 door,and a 42+" round firebox,at least 5 ft long.My brother has a flowjet,and CNC machines,so just like when i built my splitter,machining is no problem,just time making the programs,and setting it up.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*insulation*



fletcher0780 said:


> I'm interested in hearing more about your insulation. 1/4" of solarguard wrapped around the water jacket is nowhere near enough insulation (this is not only my opinion, I have verified it with a thermal imager). I was supposed to get Shavers cold weather package (two wraps of solarguard) but there is only one layer on my boiler. I plan to add 1.5" rigid hi density foam boards over the existing insulation, and in between the square tubing frame this summer, not to mention on the bottom of the water jacket. I am documenting all my improvements and will soon post them on a website linked to a few domain names I recently bought



My boiler sets under a shed,the side with the overflow is against the wall of an existing building . It's about 8" away .on the other 2 corners opposite the overflow side I screwed on pole barn outside corners from ground level to ceiling .If you screw on the new os corners edge to the existing corners of the boiler , it creates about 6" of space for more insulation.
I screwed on pieces of barn metal between the new os corners.
The pole barn metal went on better with the ribs facing in.
Batts of insulation went in behind the new metal,and between the boiler and wall of existing building . the new metal box make it easy to pile lots of insulation on top to. I removed the original roof metal .
Inside the back door I used batts of fiberglass. In the future I may insulate the door properly so it seals out the weather.This would mean ducting air to the blower .
This just leaves the front to add more insulation to.More os corners and pole barn metal will fix this.


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> My boiler sets under a shed,the side with the overflow is against the wall of an existing building . It's about 8" away .on the other 2 corners opposite the overflow side I screwed on pole barn outside corners from ground level to ceiling .If you screw on the new os corners edge to the existing corners of the boiler , it creates about 6" of space for more insulation.
> I screwed on pieces of barn metal between the new os corners.
> The pole barn metal went on better with the ribs facing in.
> Batts of insulation went in behind the new metal,and between the boiler and wall of existing building . the new metal box make it easy to pile lots of insulation on top to. I removed the original roof metal .
> Inside the back door I used batts of fiberglass. In the future I may insulate the door properly so it seals out the weather.This would mean ducting air to the blower .
> This just leaves the front to add more insulation to.More os corners and pole barn metal will fix this.



That sounds great! If you can shoot some pics of it,I would appreciate it too. So you were able to get r 19-21 in that6" airspace easily. What did you do in the back with the existing door?


----------



## fify59thatsit

*insulation*



John D said:


> That sounds great! If you can shoot some pics of it,I would appreciate it too. So you were able to get r 19-21 in that6" airspace easily. What did you do in the back with the existing door?



I used batts inside the back door . This is a little crude, so I might fix the door so it seals up tight and pipe air to the blower.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*shaver shed*

View attachment 91449


View attachment 91450


----------



## fify59thatsit

*shaver shed*

View attachment 91451


----------



## fify59thatsit

*cheap chimney brush*

Here's a CHEAP brush I made out of heavy banding and a 1/2 bolt.
I cut the banding to 5" long, drilled a1/2" hole in the center of the banding,then used flat washers and a couple 1/2" nuts to mount to a 6" long bolt.
I welded this to a length of re-bar for a long handle.
It does a good job swabbing out the flue pipe.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*chimney brush*

Here's a cheap brush I made from heavy banding,1/2" bolt
View attachment 91652


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> Here's a cheap brush I made from heavy banding,1/2" bolt
> View attachment 91652



Very nice! I let my flue build up on purpose,as it gets thicker,it insulated the pipe reducing the sweating,and the smaller hole keeps the heat in.I also blocked about 40% of the chimney's opening with a flat steel plate on top,to help try to keep in some heat,I dont think its helping much,but it doesnt seem to be hurting either.


----------



## ngzcaz

Good idea for the brush.. now here's a new problem for me at least. One or two owners mentioned they were having problems keeping the temp up and having to open the damper door opening all the way for the fire. I, on the other hand, had it only open 1/4 to 1/3. However, the last few days the water temp isn't getting high enough even after bumping up the thermostat. The fan runs constantly but the fire just doesnt seem to fire hot enough. Burn times are roughly the same but a lot less heat. I started burning from another pile of red oak about the same time and I didn't see much signs that it was really dry... but I was burning junk half rotten pine w/out a problem. The stacks not blocked and one of the things I'm considering is creosote insulating the firebox. I also raked the fire to ensure the air is getting to the fire. About an hour ago I opened the damper all the way so I should know in an hour or two if its doing any good. Normal water temp is 150 to 160 now its staying around 140 which is barely able to keep up with the heat let alone anything else. And it looks like 17 or 18 is going to be the high for today.

And if anyone else noticed this, when I open the clean out door the fire doesn't get as hot as when you close it. That tells me the blower is probably working as it should because the the air is forced up into the fire. Even though I rake, I'm going to weld a 2 or three inch 3/8 bolt to the rake handle so I can get underneath the fire and get in between the grates any residual ash that may have hardened and is keeping air from getting to the fire. Its either the more recent wood ( doubtful but certainly possible) or the air flow to the wood (more likely ) This is the one thing I didnt expect from this unit.

:monkey:


----------



## fletcher0780

ngzcaz said:


> Good idea for the brush.. now here's a new problem for me at least. One or two owners mentioned they were having problems keeping the temp up and having to open the damper door opening all the way for the fire. I, on the other hand, had it only open 1/4 to 1/3. However, the last few days the water temp isn't getting high enough even after bumping up the thermostat. The fan runs constantly but the fire just doesnt seem to fire hot enough. Burn times are roughly the same but a lot less heat. I started burning from another pile of red oak about the same time and I didn't see much signs that it was really dry... but I was burning junk half rotten pine w/out a problem. The stacks not blocked and one of the things I'm considering is creosote insulating the firebox. I also raked the fire to ensure the air is getting to the fire. About an hour ago I opened the damper all the way so I should know in an hour or two if its doing any good. Normal water temp is 150 to 160 now its staying around 140 which is barely able to keep up with the heat let alone anything else. And it looks like 17 or 18 is going to be the high for today.
> 
> And if anyone else noticed this, when I open the clean out door the fire doesn't get as hot as when you close it. That tells me the blower is probably working as it should because the the air is forced up into the fire. Even though I rake, I'm going to weld a 2 or three inch 3/8 bolt to the rake handle so I can get underneath the fire and get in between the grates any residual ash that may have hardened and is keeping air from getting to the fire. Its either the more recent wood ( doubtful but certainly possible) or the air flow to the wood (more likely ) This is the one thing I didnt expect from this unit.
> 
> :monkey:



What does the fire look like when you first open the door? Does it burn harder the longer the door is open? Is the bottom of the chimney pipe blocked? You may have a plugged up chimney, try banging on it, or attach a chain to a pipe and drop the chain down the pipe a few times. I had this problem twice, the first time my chimney extension was plugged, the second my grate was blocked off with coal dust and wood ash.


----------



## ngzcaz

I just came in from the garage. I welded a bolt on the back side of the raker that Shaver gave us facing exactly opposite ( 180 degrees ) of the Shavers rake. I had to cut the bolt once with the hacksaw when it was too long but now it works great. I went in the clean out door faced the bolt upward and pushed it up as far as it would go and then pushed and pulled the entire length of the grates. This might be something others might want to do. It now serves two functions, one to push/pull the wood from on top and clean the grates of possible clogs from the clean out door. And its cheap.. nothing if you have the bolt and a welder. After I did this I checked the fire, it seems to be roaring now when before it just wasn't doing much. We will see in another hour or so. ( think I said that before ) And the next time I go out, I'll also use it to poke in the chimney a bit from the bottom at least. A third use for the rake...

What I'd really like to do is fire this sucker up and burn up the creosote the around the firebox and along with any creosote that might be in the chimney.
Yes, the fire flares up when the main door is opened but not when just the clean out door is opened. I'm also going to change the wood supply. 

:monkey:


----------



## ngzcaz

Well.. I have to admit I gave the chimney only a cursory thought since I dont have an added stack, just the foot long pipe right from Shaver. Turns out it was indeed the chimney right at the last 2 or three inches from the top not quite plugged but enough to limit the draft. Used the rake ( 4th use ) from a small stepladder and I was able to keep the rake at 180 degrees with the pointy side inside the pipe. Just worked it back and forth to break it free. I then ran a chain down to the fire a couple of times.

She is now throwing smoke straight up a couple of feet even in the wind. I expect ( and hope ) to see flames coming out the top before I shut her down a tad. Looks like I'll be going back to the 1/3 opening again. Thanks Fletch for the reminder.. sometimes its the simplest things that get overlooked. It was 62 in the house.. definitely not acceptable for an OWB.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*blower*

Back during my first winter, I had an episode with little heat output.
The fan wold run a lot and started to push smoke out around the door.
I happened to be out with the boiler when pressure built up in the firebox from a clogged flue causing quite a blast of creosote to ERUPT from the flue pipe.
After witnessing this I made the brush to keep the flue pipe cleaned out.


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Solarguard and the Cold Weather Package*



fletcher0780 said:


> I'm interested in hearing more about your insulation. 1/4" of solarguard wrapped around the water jacket is nowhere near enough insulation (this is not only my opinion, I have verified it with a thermal imager). I was supposed to get Shavers cold weather package (two wraps of solarguard) but there is only one layer on my boiler. I plan to add 1.5" rigid hi density foam boards over the existing insulation, and in between the square tubing frame this summer, not to mention on the bottom of the water jacket. I am documenting all my improvements and will soon post them on a website linked to a few domain names I recently bought



Hi Steve,

The Cold Weather Package gives you Solarguard IN ADDITION to R11 fiberglass in the walls. Since Solarguard is the only insulation that will fit in the walls with the fiberglass AND it handles the three types of heat loss (including radiated heat) - that's why we use it. We _don't _offer two layers since the manufacturer says it is of little additional benefit.

You should have R50+ in the roof with two layers of 6" vinyl-backed fiberglass and the Solarguard - MORE than most homes have!

The weird thing is that we have never had a single complaint from our customers in Canada, Alaska or Romania, where it's a LOT colder, about heat loss or a furnace not heating adequately

Best regards,

Ben


----------



## fify59thatsit

*insulation*

Ignore the man behind the curtain and continue to do any and all prudent things you want to improve your outdoor wood boilers.
The curtain thing was a reference to the Wizard of Oz for you younger folks.


----------



## fletcher0780

ShaverFurnace said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> The Cold Weather Package gives you Solarguard IN ADDITION to R11 fiberglass in the walls. Since Solarguard is the only insulation that will fit in the walls with the fiberglass AND it handles the three types of heat loss (including radiated heat) - that's why we use it. We _don't _offer two layers since the manufacturer says it is of little additional benefit.
> 
> You should have R50+ in the roof with two layers of 6" vinyl-backed fiberglass and the Solarguard - MORE than most homes have!
> 
> The weird thing is that we have never had a single complaint from our customers in Canada, Alaska or Romania, where it's a LOT colder, about heat loss or a furnace not heating adequately
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben



Thanks Ben, 
I'm not sure about the insulation and how well it works in Romania, but it's not meeting my needs (unless I load the boiler ever 6 hours when it's below 20*). I will remedy it and document it for others that are having the same issues as I've done before. 

Any luck on the quote you were preparing for me?


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Insulation improvements*



fletcher0780 said:


> Thanks Ben,
> I'm not sure about the insulation and how well it works in Romania, but it's not meeting my needs (unless I load the boiler ever 6 hours when it's below 20*). I will remedy it and document it for others that are having the same issues as I've done before.



Hi,

I agree that there are people that have insulation problems. I don't know why but the new insulation in the bottom and the front door will help that issue.

Best regards,

Ben


----------



## fletcher0780

ShaverFurnace said:


> Hi,
> 
> I agree that there are people that have insulation problems. I don't know why but the new insulation in the bottom and the front door will help that issue.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben



Are you going to offer that new insulation to current owners?


----------



## ngzcaz

fletcher0780 said:


> Are you going to offer that new insulation to current owners?





Crickets..chirp..chirp.. about the same response as when I suggested either replacements or at least discounted items that were discussed, tested, and now perhaps standard issue on their furnace by members of this forum. Its called customer relations. Seems the bottom insulation becomes critical for those of you who raised their furnaces for easier wood loading. 3 !/2, 6, 9, or 12 inch batts insulation ( whatever fits )would probably be most cost effective option. The heat loss on the ones I've seen that were raised would be substantial indeed. Sprayed foam would be the coolest but probably the most expensive. I especially liked the enclosed unit and then extra insulation as well.

:monkey:


----------



## John D

Yup,kind of quiet now in here. I used R19 on the bottom of mine,it made a huge difference in the ability of my OWB to keep temperature.I used the faced 15" batts 3 wide,was a perfect fit,and about 6 ft long,in my case with the 250.It was tight laying under it,to put it in there,but plenty warm as the heat coming off the OWB was keeping me warm.This should have been done at the factory,the thought of an uninsulated 100 degree temp differential between the ground,and water tank of the OWB with 16+sq ft area is just insane.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*bare bones boiler*

Perhaps Shaver will consider selling a stripped down model with nothing but firebox and water jacket and a web link to this forum, then that salesman guy won't have to defend it's short comings.


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> Perhaps Shaver will consider selling a stripped down model with nothing but firebox and water jacket and a web link to this forum, then that salesman guy won't have to defend it's short comings.



Sure the web link is: http://www.shaverboiler.com


----------



## fify59thatsit

*solenoid*

I got the solenoid on this afternoon .IT sure snaps up quick.
I just hope the air being shut off between cycles doesn't lead to lots more creosote.
Once again I want to express thanks for the useful info found on this site.
The steam fix ,blower fix , lots more insulation and for me rerouting the return line was a vast improvement over stock. John


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> I got the solenoid on this afternoon .IT sure snaps up quick.
> I just hope the air being shut off between cycles doesn't lead to lots more creosote.
> Once again I want to express thanks for the useful info found on this site.
> The steam fix ,blower fix , lots more insulation and for me rerouting the return line was a vast improvement over stock. John



It works great,you really need to have the digital aquastat,IMO with the blower door mod,as cycling becomes a lot more frequent than when the door was stuck partially open.


----------



## fify59thatsit

I had the ranco before the solenoid,so everything is now complete,except for the Romanian insulation lessons


----------



## fletcher0780

fify59thatsit said:


> Romanian insulation lessons


----------



## ShaverFurnace

*Stripped down shaver*



fify59thatsit said:


> Perhaps Shaver will consider selling a stripped down model with nothing but firebox and water jacket and a web link to this forum, then that salesman guy won't have to defend it's short comings.



We already do!

Some go to the folks who put them in sheds and other buildings (no tin insulation or roof structure or back door.

Some go overseas, because they can't use our 110V electrical components anyway.

Some go to dealers who do their own mods, like many shown here (although they never came here).

Some are shipped without pumps because people have their own.

Some order them without a hot water coil.

We will make them anyway a customer wants.

Best regards,

Ben


----------



## ngzcaz

Crickets..chirp..chirp..

On another note, Due to the cold weather here, I finally decided to bump up my thermostat from 140 degrees ( actual water temp 130 to 160 ) to 150 degrees ( 160 to 170 degrees actual water temp ). For some reason it seems to have tightened the gap between the wildly fluctuating temps with it hanging around 170 more steadily. The door sticking from creosote has also improved a lot. Of course you have to feed it a bit more. Might be a bit premature but this is almost acceptable.

:welcome:


----------



## fify59thatsit

ShaverFurnace said:


> We already do!
> 
> Some go to the folks who put them in sheds and other buildings (no tin insulation or roof structure or back door.
> 
> Some go overseas, because they can't use our 110V electrical components anyway.
> 
> Some go to dealers who do their own mods, like many shown here (although they never came here).
> 
> Some are shipped without pumps because people have their own.
> 
> Some order them without a hot water coil.
> 
> We will make them anyway a customer wants.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Ben



Sorry I didn't hang last nite,

Shaver Improvement Forum Forever 

That salesman guy never

Enough said about that by me .


----------



## Windwalker7

Before you guys went with the selenoid for opening the flapper, did any of you toy with the idea of trying to make a gravity type flapper out of PVC?

I was wondering if a piece of PVC with a flapper that would swing on some type of hinge that would be light enough to swing open (inward) when the blower kicked on.

If you woulld drill a hole(twoholes actually) slightly higher than the center piont of the PVC. You could insert a stiff wire all the way through.

On this wire would be a round piece of plastic that was slightly smaller than the inside dia. of the PVC. it would swing freely enough for the suction of the blower to open it.


Hard to explain but have any of you toyed with this idea?


----------



## Windwalker7

Before you guys went with the selenoid for opening the flapper, did any of you toy with the idea of trying to make a gravity type flapper out of PVC?

I was wondering if a piece of PVC with a flapper that would swing on some type of hinge that would be light enough to swing open (inward) when the blower kicked on.

If you woulld drill a hole(twoholes actually) slightly higher than the center piont of the PVC. You could insert a stiff wire all the way through.

On this wire would be a round piece of plastic that was slightly smaller than the inside dia. of the PVC. it would swing freely enough for the suction of the blower to open it.



Heck, you could almost use a soup can with the top and bottom removed and use one of the ends for the flapper.

Hard to explain but have any of you toyed with this idea?


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## fify59thatsit

*flapper*

Actually I did try this ,The natural draft going through the firebox pulled the flapper open . Some type of spring might work to keep the flapper closed.
Some one else on here had a pic of his homemade draft flapper.


----------



## david78

Windwalker, check out page 18 of this thread. I'm very satisfied with my flapper. The counterweight keeps it shut tight when the blower isn't on.


----------



## Windwalker7

Thanks david.

That's what I'm talking about.


Got anymore of those dampers laying around?


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## david78

Sorry, no. I saw this one on ebay; looks like it might work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tjernlund-4"-Ad...ol-Damper_W0QQitemZ160318133855QQcmdZViewItem


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## fify59thatsit

*dhw*

Is anybody using the copper coil for hot water and if so how?

My copper coil can be called 5/8" which is the od [outside diameter] measurement 
It's 1/2" id [ inside diameter ]


----------



## fletcher0780

I haven't hooked mine up yet, but I'd like to tie it into the electric water heater that services my garage and the apartment above.


----------



## John D

Not me,I too would like too,but im concerned about the 50 ft of 5/8", plus 220 ft of 3/4" pex causing a restriction,and poor hot water pressure in the house,esp with 2 family residence and my 12GPM well.My hot water has been a problem since I went with the OWB,boiler temps arent as high as they used to be,im running out of DHW when we never did with the oil burner firing.So I'd like to address this over the summer.


----------



## Windwalker7

I use mine. 

Although, it takes it a little while to recover after one or two baths in a row.

I think part of the problem is my OWB seems to have trouble keeping the temps up. I know what I need to do but that's another story.

Anyway, I have a 133ft fo 3/4 pex to run to the furnace. I use a Bronze Taco 007 to circulate the water. (266 ft round trip and another 50ft of coil)

I think a bigger pump would have a quicker recovery too. I really don't quite get all that stuff about head or how to determine proper pump size.

With the DHW hooked up, I see a big difference in my electric bill. 


My electric supplier estimates my electric use every other month and actually checks the meter every other month it doesn't estimate.




My December estimate was $135.

My January actual reading was $45.

February's estimate was $126


I'm a little anxious to see March's especially since I switiched every light bulb in the house to those energy saver types.


----------



## fletcher0780

The hot water in my house is handle as a zone off my heating system, it's the electric water heater in my garage that serves the apartment that I'd like to augment. There is only one tenant so I don't need a lot of hot water. The boiler is about 50ft from the garage and I have 1/2" pex running to the domestic water coil and back. I still need a pump and to tie everything in, but I'm looking forward to cutting down on my $300/month electric bill.


----------



## Ash wacker

I have mine hooked up and how I did it,I cut my cold supply to the hot water heater and ran that out to the furnace and returned back in the cold side with hot water. I adjusted my pressure switch on the well pump and it works great. Plenty of hot water.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*dhw*

Does anybody have a pump on their water heater set to run on demand to circ water through the copper coil. John


----------



## fletcher0780

Ash wacker said:


> I have mine hooked up and how I did it,I cut my cold supply to the hot water heater and ran that out to the furnace and returned back in the cold side with hot water. I adjusted my pressure switch on the well pump and it works great. Plenty of hot water.



Is your water heater still plugged in? Is it even electric? I considered doing the same thing, and preheating the water before it entered the tank, then just use the electric water heater to keep it hot. No extra pump saves money, I would just need a mixing valve coming out of the heater in case the water entering the heater is too hot.


----------



## berry5

my 165 is heating my water all year works great. i hooked it up like the manual says i am runing mine thru 200 foot of pex. water heater has been off for a year now. i have a good pic if i can figure out how to add a pic


----------



## fify59thatsit

*dhw*

I have a lp water heater. would like to get away from gas man.
I have the pre 48 page owners manual [mine was 3 pages typing paper folded over] besides I would prefer to get info from this forum anyway. Would like to see pic's berry 5
John


----------



## berry5

how do you up load the pics it says the file is to big can you pm the pics thanks mike


----------



## berry5

i have better pics i will try and post


----------



## John D

Why are some of you using a pump to bring water to the coil? I thought you just cut into the cold water supply to the existing hot water heater,and cut the return into the cold water inlet at the hot water heater.By using the existing water pressure,no additional pumps would be needed.In effect feeding your existing one with hot water.


----------



## Ash wacker

John D said:


> Why are some of you using a pump to bring water to the coil? I thought you just cut into the cold water supply to the existing hot water heater,and cut the return into the cold water inlet at the hot water heater.By using the existing water pressure,no additional pumps would be needed.In effect feeding your existing one with hot water.



That is exactly how I did mine. I have a propane water heater and if it sits idle for a long time the heater will come on but most of the time the thing doesn't run and my owb keeps up with our demand.


----------



## fletcher0780

berry5 said:


> i have better pics i will try and post



Is that a bronze pump.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*dhw*



Ash wacker said:


> That is exactly how I did mine. I have a propane water heater and if it sits idle for a long time the heater will come on but most of the time the thing doesn't run and my owb keeps up with our demand.



How long for hot water to get to house this way? Seems like there would be a big slug of cool water in there ?
Would run the pump only to keep water at preset temp ?


----------



## Ash wacker

I have never had a problem with it. A family of five and everyone takes morning showers and we haven't had a issue with a cold water surge.


----------



## fletcher0780

Leaving the water heater connected and just feeding it with preheated water from the coil seems like the easiest way to go. Sure the water heater will still come on from time to time, but it should never need to heat the water from it's straight from the well 50* temperature, It'll just need to maintain the temp if you don't use hot water for a while. I would think you could leave it setup this way all year as well, even if your not burning wood. The sun alone will probably keep the boiler water at 80* or so, so you'd still be preheating the water a tad before it enters your water heating appliance.


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> How long for hot water to get to house this way? Seems like there would be a big slug of cool water in there ?
> Would run the pump only to keep water at preset temp ?



The slug of cold water hits the hot water maker,just like i would without the OWB,once the cold is gone,your feeding warm/hot water into the hot water maker,so its just acting as a storage tank,and bladder.If the OWB is at 170,and your water out of the OWB HW coil is even close to that 170,your inside HW maker shoudnt need to come on unless it sits idle for extended times,even then you can lower the temp on it,since recovery isnt an issue anymore,since your bringing hot water into it.
After getting my first 2 mo electric bill 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1424578&posted=1#post1424578

 I am trying to run the OWB a little cheaper. If i can use the coil,in the spring/summer/fall, I can turn both circs off 24/7 to on demand only,by wiring them to the Tstat relay instead of constant power,and hook up the DHW coil,the existing water pressure will be the power source,so the only additional cost will be the blower/sol on the OWB,and the rare occasion when the circs need to come on to heat or make some water.Im thinking 95% of the DHW will be made by the coil,and the water may actually get hotter with use as recharge water may be above 140.


----------



## ngzcaz

Seems like the fellows that don't have a hot water coil ( as in an oil burner or the like ) and used the hot water coil that Shaver recommended are the ones that are having issues with the hot water. A 1/2 inch coil coil run any length of distance is going to be prone to have problems unless its super insulated. If possible could any of you simply forget about the hot water coil and run the 1 inch pex into your oil or gas furnace and let that HW coil ( if it has one ) heat your water ? I didn't use a heat exchanger as they recommended.. I foresaw problems with chemicals clogging them up and they kind of admit that may happen. My incoming water pex goes in the bottom of the oil burner and the out going pex on the top where the pop off valve is located. Everything is furnished by the oil burner and its HW coil. The waters never mix and now you have 1 inch pex supplying the HW for your baths, showers, dishwasher and of course heat. 
I kept trying to find a reason not to do this and use the Heat exchanger but several trips to a half dozen people that have been doing this for several years convinced me it really could be that simple.. I didn't order the HW coil from Shaver and havent missed it yet. I understand some might not be able to do this because setups do differ but if you can, this is the most trouble free and efficient way that I've seen. BTW, the addition of three ball valves allow me to shut off the OWB and be back on oil in around 5 seconds if necessary. There is only the one pump supplied by Shaver that is needed.

:monkey:


----------



## John D

You have a coil in your boiler inside,my old house had one,I miss it. My new home has a separate zone and superstore HW maker.My hotwater is ok,but I run out faster than i used to on oil because i had to turn down the stat on the superstore to 135,when it used to be at 150.At 150,many times the incoming owb lines dont have enough heat to give off to satisfy the HW maker,so the pump continues to run and run for hours,without any gain,and the longer it runs,the harder it is for the boiler to keep up with heating demands on both units.So I'd like to use the Shaver coil,just to take the load off the superstore,and reduce the circs running so much,which helps keep temps up,also should solve me running out of hot water.


----------



## hedgecutter

Been awhile since I have posted anything but thought someone here may benefit from my experience with the Shaver DHW coil. I have a shaver 165 and plumbed it it just like the manual says. I used 3/4" pex for the domestic hot water, furnace is 85' from house with total loop length of 275'. I used an Armstrong 30 pump mounted on my propane fired 40 gal hot water heater. I used the snap disc T-stat that came on the Shaver (replaced it with a Ranco) and siliconed it to my LP water heater to cycle the pump on and off. It works pretty well and seems to keep up with houshold demand for a family of six. I actually recovers water temp quicker than when using propane. I run my Ranco out on the Shaver at 180 and set the hot water snap disc t-stat at 125. I turned the propane off to the hot water heater and only use the shaver heat for the house and domestic hot water. At first I was going to plumb it up with out a pump and just use my well pressure, but I wanted a way to circulate the loop if I was gone in the winter months to avoid a freeze up. So I plumbed in a pump wired to a 3-way switch: one position for t-stat operation and the other for 24/7 continuous. I will try to post a pic.


----------



## Windwalker7

I also set mine up exactly as the manual suggests.


I have an electric hot water tank. I just shut off the breaker to it and let the Shaver heat it.

I was heating one of the rooms in my home via radiant floor heating. The way I had it was after heated water from the Shaver exited the HX in my plenum, it then ran between the floor joists in that one room. The water was probably losing about 25*.

I think this is why my DHW took so long to recover. I noticed if I shut off the radiant floor it recovered much quicker.


Yesterday, I spent the entire day revamping the whole thing.

I now have the heated water entering a "water to air" HX in my plenum, and from there it goes into another HX. Its a "water to water" HX that I have connected to the loop to the radiant floor set up I have in the one room.


Now I just need some colder weather to see how well it works.


----------



## fify59thatsit

*sure is quite in here*



ngzcaz said:


> Crickets..chirp..chirp..
> 
> where is everybody?


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> ngzcaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crickets..chirp..chirp..
> 
> where is everybody?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> still here,im back to work,and the cold nights are over here,the owb is cruising thru the night easily now.This summer ill take it down to the bare steel,and insulate it properly.
Click to expand...


----------



## boyland

I have been looking at the shaver boiler it appears with the front of the boiler being a square box door and burn box being round with a square door there is an area in between the round and square that would be fully exposed to heat? Meaning it would be able to get pretty hot not surrounded by water. I wonder if anyone has experience to share on that area as well as the temp of the door itself.

I saw the one guy sprayed his with foam I would be worried about this area catching the foam on fire?

Let me know what you guys are experiencing with this, I am evaluating this unit.

Thanks


----------



## ngzcaz

Maybe its just me but I'd like to have a deeper firebox rather than longer. The longer logs you put in the longer you have to rake. A deeper firebox would keep the fire much better as well. The mod that some did by closing the air box completely would really come in handy with a deeper box since the fire would feed on itself, probably come up to temp faster, coal better and maybe even last longer w/ less chance of it going out. Make the fire box ROUND like Natures comfort ( Shaver are you paying attention ? ) so there's less work for the owner since the ashes feed by gravity to the bottom. 

I envision a better, hotter burn as well. If there are negatives let me know ( Although this is nothing that we can do to modify our OWB.. Also on the wish list is a bypass control that would temporarily actually make the smoke go up the chimney instead of in your face. The switch I put on the front to turn off the blower is practically worthless. Geez......... is this asking too much ?

:biggrinbounce2:


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## fletcher0780

I too think the firebox should be the entire barrel and add a box below for the ash pan. A by-pass rod to open the chimney at the top of the firebox would be nice to fix the smoke billowing out the door.


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## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I too think the firebox should be the entire barrel and add a box below for the ash pan. A by-pass rod to open the chimney at the top of the firebox would be nice to fix the smoke billowing out the door.



My homemade OWB will use the entire barrel as well. Taking 10" off the bottom of the barrel for the ash pan is rediculous,wastes too much space that could be a few more logs.Also heat transfer under the fire would be better than it is now. I plan to weld a 4 ft long length of 1/4" thick 8-10" square stock under the barrel.Just cut the one side off it,so its got 3 sides,and weld to the bottom of the barrel,and plasma cut the air grates/ash grate right into the barrel,you can always go back and cut it out later if you want to try something different.
Id like to make the air feed up front as well.I believe the cool air should come in the front,and burn front to back,to get the most heat out of the wood.


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## fify59thatsit

*shaver book*

Here's some fodder ,If you look at the drawings you will see some View attachment 93468


View attachment 93469


View attachment 93470


View attachment 93471


View attachment 93472
things you guys where just talking about, firebox design and fire box thickness if you can read the text


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## fletcher0780

too bad they aren't really built like that


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## John D

Just a heads up to anyone here,in the last 2 days,It has been extremely windy,and things are drying out. Yesterday I was at work,when the gf called,and said my wood pile was on fire,she looks out back quite a bit during the day,and thankfully seen the log that caught fire.She ran out and put it out with a 5 gal bucket.Today,same thing happened,this time it was behind the wood pile,and this one would have been a biggie of it wasnt seen when it was. I have had no chimney cap on the shaver,and bought one today,initially i thought I may have carelessly let a glowing chunk fall out,but today,the fire was behind the OWB off to the downwind side.So I knew the chimney started it.
I would have had one heck of a fire,I still have 3-4 cord of nice dried locust and oak in my pile,would have been a hot fire,and one way to get rid of the Shaver....If anyone else is running a shaver with no cap,I'd put one on before it gets any drier.I couldnt find a good one,so i bought a cheepie,and wrapped a xcreen around the openings,and pop rivetted it together.If anyone knows if a good cap,that is a spark arrestor,please post the link here,thank you.


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## ngzcaz

Why not just put a screen on the top instead of a cap ? That way the smoke is free to keep going upward instead of being forced sideways or potentially downward.. You could decide that size holes would be necessary to keep the larger pieces that may cause a problem.


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## Redbird

You need more of a wire than a screen. From my experience if the holes are too small they eill collect soot/creosote and eventually plate off.


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## ngzcaz

I was thinking more along the lines of a screen than we used to use for various topsoil. Guess it would be considered a wire screen, fairly heavy duty. Different sizes yielded different types of soil. I know what you mean. Small holes would junk up in short order. Depending on how the screen is made it could be taken off in seconds, knocked clean w/ a hammer if dry, and put back on.


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## ngzcaz

View attachment 93472
things you guys where just talking about, firebox design and fire box thickness if you can read the text[/QUOTE]


Maybe I got a second. Mine doesn't have a round firebox.


:jawdrop:


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## yodayoda

John D said:


> Just a heads up to anyone here,in the last 2 days,It has been extremely windy,and things are drying out. Yesterday I was at work,when the gf called,and said my wood pile was on fire,she looks out back quite a bit during the day,and thankfully seen the log that caught fire.She ran out and put it out with a 5 gal bucket.Today,same thing happened,this time it was behind the wood pile,and this one would have been a biggie of it wasnt seen when it was. I have had no chimney cap on the shaver,and bought one today,initially i thought I may have carelessly let a glowing chunk fall out,but today,the fire was behind the OWB off to the downwind side.So I knew the chimney started it.
> I would have had one heck of a fire,I still have 3-4 cord of nice dried locust and oak in my pile,would have been a hot fire,and one way to get rid of the Shaver....If anyone else is running a shaver with no cap,I'd put one on before it gets any drier.I couldnt find a good one,so i bought a cheepie,and wrapped a xcreen around the openings,and pop rivetted it together.If anyone knows if a good cap,that is a spark arrestor,please post the link here,thank you.



John, how small of a screen did you use? I noticed last fall when I first fired mine up, allot of sparks and it worried me until we got some snow cover. I think your screen is going to plug up fairly quick, the reason I say that is I originally bought a cap for mine to keep the rain out, it was for (I think it's called class B)gas furnace vent, it worked for a couple of weeks, then I couldn't keep a decent fire going until I noticed all the vent slots in the cap were completely plugged and the vent slots were fairly large, (maybe an inch long and 1/4 inch wide) Let us know how it works out as I definitely want to make something for my shaver as well, especially since your story confirmed my worries.


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## John D

yodayoda said:


> John, how small of a screen did you use? I noticed last fall when I first fired mine up, allot of sparks and it worried me until we got some snow cover. I think your screen is going to plug up fairly quick, the reason I say that is I originally bought a cap for mine to keep the rain out, it was for (I think it's called class B)gas furnace vent, it worked for a couple of weeks, then I couldn't keep a decent fire going until I noticed all the vent slots in the cap were completely plugged and the vent slots were fairly large, (maybe an inch long and 1/4 inch wide) Let us know how it works out as I definitely want to make something for my shaver as well, especially since your story confirmed my worries.



I used a screen with about 1/4" holes,I got it from the hardwarestore. Last night sparks were still flying out of it,Im not liking this at all.This morning ,I cleared the area under the chimney ,as the coals were right under it,it seemed to help a little. Today i went out with a rake,and cleaned up all the bark ,and mess around the OWB,and threw it in before dinner when the wind was blowing east ,where its over a mile to the nearest house.It was smokey for a while.I'd like a finer screen,but i figured it would just plug up anyway.As it is,im sure ill need to go up,and burn the creosote off the cap with the mapp gas burner now and then.


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## ngzcaz

A while back, one of my thoughts to improve this unit ( after watching blue flame shoot out the chimney about a foot and a half ) was to make a simple diverter to ensure the wood/ash cant get directly under the chimney. Take John's 1/4 inch screen or, make it 6 or so inches higher than the chimney, bend it in a semi circle at least 180 degrees around the diameter of the chimney and place it facing the feed door toward the front of the stove against the chimney or just use half of a 6 inch steel pipe if you want to make the smoke go completely around the pipe and then up and out.etc. This diverts the wood from getting directly underneath the chimney in the first place. Make it removable of course. It would have to be secured so the incoming wood wouldn't knock it out of place. The chimney would be one area that would be safe to drill. I wouldn't drill into the firebox because of the water jacket. Maybe a tack weld or something similar. Lots of ways to secure this.. Actual size and diameter, holes ( if any ) would vary on setup but it should work with some actual testing. Hopefully better than the stock chimney at least.

And..... if the chimney is not wet from creosote, a couple whacks from a 40 oz ball peen hammer is a lot fast than a torch. If one can lift the furnace with it it should withstand a couple of whacks with a hammer. Obviously this is for those of us who haven't put on a chimney extension.



:monkey:


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## John D

No chimney extension here,I just looked this am,and my screen is already about 30% plugged.I think its mostly from burning a wheelbarrow full of bark,splitters,sawdust and sticks yesterday.


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## John D

pics today,screens only been on 48 hrs,buti cleaned around the owb yesterday,and burned a lot of sticks,and bark.


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## david78

I had a cap on mine for awhile; what some call a shanty cap. Flat top, four large openings, one on each side. No screening. It plugged up with creosote in short order so I took it off and the furnace performed much better. I have never seen sparks coming out, even with roaring fires. I have a 4 foot extension on mine, which may be part of the reason. Also, I keep all the coals raked forward toward the grates and most of my wood isn't any longer than the distance from the door to the chimney, so there's usually not much coals/fire in the back of the firebox. I think any kind of screen or cap will require frequent cleaning and may cut down on draft.


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## yodayoda

John, if I remember right, you did the damper flap mod to your stove. Did you remove the adjustable flap that comes on your draft motor? If so I wonder if the extra draft you are getting is making your spark situation worse.
Last fall I was burning pine and it did make alot of sparks, but I haven't noticed as many burning birch and poplar. Just a thought, I could be wrong, I still have the flap on my stove and run it about 1/3 open, maybe I will try opening it up all the way to compare the spark situation. Or you could put some duct tape over some of the inlet on yours and see if it helps.


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## John D

yodayoda said:


> John, if I remember right, you did the damper flap mod to your stove. Did you remove the adjustable flap that comes on your draft motor? If so I wonder if the extra draft you are getting is making your spark situation worse.
> Last fall I was burning pine and it did make alot of sparks, but I haven't noticed as many burning birch and poplar. Just a thought, I could be wrong, I still have the flap on my stove and run it about 1/3 open, maybe I will try opening it up all the way to compare the spark situation. Or you could put some duct tape over some of the inlet on yours and see if it helps.



I'm sure the fully open air door is a contributing factor here,as it couldnt get that hot so fast without that much air.As it warms up I thought about just unhooking the fan,and see if the air opening is enough to hold temperature,esp since it really isnt providing much heat anymore.


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## Fishhead

I went through 3 fan motors on my shaver and in between motors i opened up the draft flapper all the way and yes even in winter it was enough to heat my home as long as the ashes were kept up. The only way I believe you can run a cap is if you do the tripple wall pipe mod on the stack, other than that its a task to keep the stock stack open. Mine builds up in the 6" pipe like crazy and needs a good wack once in a while. how about a homemade version like peaked roof made out of 1/8th inch steel?


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## Windwalker7

Anyone running their Shaver with the Ranco thermostat but without the blower mod?

How'd it work this winter?


I just ordered the Ranco and was wondering about whether I should order the solenoid and an extra blower too.


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## John D

Windwalker7 said:


> Anyone running their Shaver with the Ranco thermostat but without the blower mod?
> 
> How'd it work this winter?
> 
> 
> I just ordered the Ranco and was wondering about whether I should order the solenoid and an extra blower too.



I ran a few days the other way around,w blower mods,and stock stat,and it was horrible,huge temp fluctuations.


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## ngzcaz

Since the days are much warmer than a few weeks ago, I can see why a blower mod that lets just a wisp of smoke out the stack is a good idea. The smoke stinks, especially if you're burning the junk I am..

:monkey:


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## John D

Anybody else have there circulator pump go out yet? last week,I changed the wiring to the circulators,so they cycled with demand instead of running 24/7. It worked fine for 3 days,the 4th morning I awoke to a running oil burner,and found the indoor loop circ running fine,but the outdoor one on the Shaver DOA. I turned it off,then back on again,and it started working.So I switched the circs back to 24/7 and have been hoping for the best until i find a replacement.Anyone know how to get warranty on it?I was thinking of using a 3 speed grundfos like i have inside on the loop,but im not sure its got enough power even on high to keep up.I am not buying another Taco circ they are out of the question.Ive had 3 failures in 11 yrs on 3 zones with them.Im stuckjwith 3 of them on due to the integral 24V(or add a big relay controller).They seem to last 4-7 yrs tops.My old house (now my parents)has a grundfos,its 23 yrs old,still going strong.


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## fletcher0780

I've got a 3 speed grundfos on my outdoor loop cycling on demand, but It is in my basement. these pumps are not rated for outdoor use, I don't understand why everyone installs them on the OWB.


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## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I've got a 3 speed grundfos on my outdoor loop cycling on demand, but It is in my basement. these pumps are not rated for outdoor use, I don't understand why everyone installs them on the OWB.



Which 3 speed do you have? I found 3 of them,the smallest one is what I have on my indoor loop pump. It is the UPS15-58FC.It was cheap,around 70.00.Im not sure if it has the GPM to run 105ft,and my pex runs up the side of the house 12ft,then down into the boiler room.The next larger circs go from 70.00 up to over 200.00.
I installed the pump outside because I was always told electric circ pumps were designed to push water not pull it.Putting it in the boiler room it would need to pull the water up the side of the house thru the attic,and it just didnt make sense to me to do that.Otherwise Id have it in there as well,much easier to get too.Putting it outside it was able to take advantage of the constant water supply,(owb tank).Also Shaver shows,and recommended it on the unit,not that that matters,but my buiding dept and UL permit showed everything in the unit,not a big deal,but another issue.


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## fletcher0780

I've got the 15-58, 160' one way. But I'm using 30mm ID pex. If you're using 1" pex you'll probably need the larger pump. I've always used the pump to pull the water. FYI the grundfos pump says for indoor use only.


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## John D

your 160 one way,Im 210 both ways.Thats a big difference,I may try the smaller pump,and if it isnt enough,keep it for a spare on the indoor loop. Im pretty sure the Ranco,solenoid and blower are also for indoor use only as they are delivered,unless put in an approved enclosure.The Shaver back door is adequete protection,except for the condensation,which ive taken care of.I dont think moisture had anything to do with mine failing,I think its got a bad spot in the motor.Its been working great now that i have it on 24/7,but i know its on its way out.


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## yodayoda

John If you don't mind, could you measure on your 250, the distance from the front of your firebox to your chimney?

I have a 165, 34" long fire box and aprox 25" from the front of the firebox to the chimney
.
I see the 250 firebox is 50" long, but was wondering where they put the chimney, ie how long of logs you can put in it.

I am debating getting rid of my shaver, or the dealer I bought it from will let me trade it in for a bigger one, don't know how much $ yet.

My main reason is my burn times suck, 8 hours at best when below zero.

I really like the woodmaster, huge firebox, but that would require me to sell my stove to some poor bas****

Does the longer firebox allow you to get significantly more wood in it? maybe the 290?

Seems to me the larger models should have a bigger diameter firebox, longer may not gain me that much.

I don't know maybe I should just do the mods to mine and live with it.


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## fletcher0780

I've got the 290 an can put almost 4' logs in. I normally load 2 rows of 20" plus wood on the real cold nights, but burn time still isn't great because of the limited insulation. This summer I'm goind to add 2" hi density rigid foam boards all around the boiler, including beneath it. I think that should extend my burn times greatly. The woodmasters are nice until you need to clean out the ashes. I'm not sure how well the ash auger works, but the ones without can be a pain to clean.


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## yodayoda

fletcher0780 said:


> I've got the 290 an can put almost 4' logs in. I normally load 2 rows of 20" plus wood on the real cold nights, but burn time still isn't great because of the limited insulation. This summer I'm goind to add 2" hi density rigid foam boards all around the boiler, including beneath it. I think that should extend my burn times greatly. The woodmasters are nice until you need to clean out the ashes. I'm not sure how well the ash auger works, but the ones without can be a pain to clean.



Thanks Fletcher, I am considreing insulating mine the same way,
How long of burn times can you get?
And yeah, I was thinking the same thing about the woodmaster, too bad they dont have a grate and ash pan setup.


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## fletcher0780

When it is in the sigle digits I can get about 8 hours fully loaded, but I'm heating a 3000 sq.ft. house, domestic hot water, a 1000 sq.ft. garage, and a 900 sq.ft apartment above the garage. We keep the house at 75*, garage at 50* and apartment at 70*. I'm burning green hardwood. I hope to extend my burn time to 12 hrs after the insulation.


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## yodayoda

fletcher0780 said:


> When it is in the sigle digits I can get about 8 hours fully loaded, but I'm heating a 3000 sq.ft. house, domestic hot water, a 1000 sq.ft. garage, and a 900 sq.ft apartment above the garage. We keep the house at 75*, garage at 50* and apartment at 70*. I'm burning green hardwood. I hope to extend my burn time to 12 hrs after the insulation.



I'm heating 1400 sq foot house not including basement, house built in the 50's, drafty, not very well insulated,DHW and 36*42 shop with 14' ceiling. Heat house to 70, shop to 45.

So maybe I'm not doing so bad, Burnt aprox 12-13 cord so far, mix of birch and maple. Wood was green last September. So maybe I should just Insulate stove better, do Ranco mod,I have next years wood all cut, aprox 15 cord of Birch, so it should be pretty dry next winter.

You must have used allot of wood if your filling that beast full every 8 hours when cold out, I don't know about you, but it has been a long cold winter here.


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## Fishhead

What about going with a Natures Comfort? I had a shaver 250 yes you can get a long log in it but with the small door opening its near imposable to get a 12x48" green log in it without killing your back. Read my thread on my shaver 250 it was a nightmare. My dad has a Natures comfort 250 and loves it. 4' wood and a huge door, removable ash pan, blower with flapper, honeywell stat. Yes there more money but with the mods you need to do to the shaver and the extra quality you get with the NC its well worth it. Set the two side by side and youll be going home with a NC boiler.


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## yodayoda

Fishhead said:


> What about going with a Natures Comfort? I had a shaver 250 yes you can get a long log in it but with the small door opening its near imposable to get a 12x48" green log in it without killing your back. Read my thread on my shaver 250 it was a nightmare. My dad has a Natures comfort 250 and loves it. 4' wood and a huge door, removable ash pan, blower with flapper, honeywell stat. Yes there more money but with the mods you need to do to the shaver and the extra quality you get with the NC its well worth it. Set the two side by side and youll be going home with a NC boiler.



Yes I've looked at them on their website looks like a really nice unit. Problem is, in order to trade mine in I have to go with another shaver from where I bought it, unless I put it on Craigs list and try and sell it myself.I just don't know if I would feel right about selling it to some unsuspecting person.


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## John D

yodayoda said:


> John If you don't mind, could you measure on your 250, the distance from the front of your firebox to your chimney?
> 
> I have a 165, 34" long fire box and aprox 25" from the front of the firebox to the chimney
> .
> I see the 250 firebox is 50" long, but was wondering where they put the chimney, ie how long of logs you can put in it.
> 
> I am debating getting rid of my shaver, or the dealer I bought it from will let me trade it in for a bigger one, don't know how much $ yet.
> 
> My main reason is my burn times suck, 8 hours at best when below zero.
> 
> I really like the woodmaster, huge firebox, but that would require me to sell my stove to some poor bas****
> 
> Does the longer firebox allow you to get significantly more wood in it? maybe the 290?
> 
> Seems to me the larger models should have a bigger diameter firebox, longer may not gain me that much.
> 
> I don't know maybe I should just do the mods to mine and live with it.



I am getting about 42" from the front of chimney to the front of firebox.Thank god I went with a 250,I changed my order at the last minute.I regularly load in 3 3 1/2ft logs,the ony place I cant get a 4fter is right dead center on top.I wish I'd went with a 340 now.I cut my large wood to 30",since thats my splitters max log length.The smaller wood i cut to 36+ usually,sometimes leave them longer.
As for another OWB.I think I am going to build my own here in the near future.Im not sure what shape or the details yet,Im still gathering info on it.But Im going to concentrate on maximum exchange area more than anything else.I think the Shaver really suffers there,the entire bottom of the unit has zero heat transfer area,and I hate losing 1/3 of the firebox to an ashpan,that combined with the small door are my single biggest beefs right now,just not enough capacity,and its hard to get the firebox even 3/4 full sometimes,you end up having to move the wood around alot to wedge the firebox full for real cold nights or long burn times.


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## yodayoda

Thanks John,
I'm not sure what I'm going to yet, I think I'll see what my dealer has to say on trade in, anybody have an opinion on What a fair trade would be? My stove is less than a year old. How much $ to boot for new a 250 would be fair?


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## Fishhead

All depends... Whats the resale value on a used OWB? The 250 goes for about 5400.00 I think its what I paid for mine.


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## yodayoda

I was just rereading some of the old posts, so if I order a new shaver does it come with the Ranco stat? (see Bens post on page 25)


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## Fishhead

No.... comes with the $10 comercial hot water heater t-stat. Alot of troubles with those....


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## Fishhead

Wonder if you could buy them bare bones alot cheaper? basicly just the main part of the boiler? Then again these things are even more barbaric looking without the tin work on. But just the same, wonder if you could save some cash. These boilers need upgrading and you have to foot the bill.


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## projectsho89

Fishhead said:


> Wonder if you could buy them bare bones alot cheaper? basicly just the main part of the boiler? Then again these things are even more barbaric looking without the tin work on. But just the same, wonder if you could save some cash. These boilers need upgrading and you have to foot the bill.



What the heck do you think they're already selling???


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## fletcher0780

yodayoda said:


> I was just rereading some of the old posts, so if I order a new shaver does it come with the Ranco stat? (see Bens post on page 25)



Yes, he said they arenow shipping with the Ranco


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## John D

Just a FYI,I unhooked the blower motor on my Shaver today,and tried to run it on the damper only.It didnt work,even with ambient temps of close to 60 degrees,the OWB couldnt maintain 180 with no demand after 2 hours of the Ranco "calling" for hotter water.Within 10 minutes of hooking the blower back up,it was at 183,and satisfied.When the blower was unplugged,the draft ony was pulling pretty good thru the opening,enough to spin the fan motor about as fast as a hamster would spin it walking inside it.


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## yodayoda

fletcher0780 said:


> Yes, he said they arenow shipping with the Ranco



Thanks Fletcher, I hate to even ask this but, could you measure on your 290 how far it is from the front of your stove, to the front of the first foot? I read the 290 has 6 feet. I am trying to figure out if the 290 will fit on my existing cement pad. Thanks


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## fletcher0780

i can't get to it right now, I have the gap under my boiler filled with spray foam, but I want to say it's less than 6" from the front of the boiler to the firts set of legs.


----------



## John D

yodayoda said:


> Thanks Fletcher, I hate to even ask this but, could you measure on your 290 how far it is from the front of your stove, to the front of the first foot? I read the 290 has 6 feet. I am trying to figure out if the 290 will fit on my existing cement pad. Thanks



Yoda,after all the issures you'd buy another one?CB has a good rebate right now,and they burn less wood per BTU of heat output.Id never buy a Shaver again,at the price I paid,I'd take it at 1/2 price,but thats about it.


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## fletcher0780

John D said:


> Yoda,after all the issures you'd buy another one?CB has a good rebate right now,and they burn less wood per BTU of heat output.Id never buy a Shaver again,at the price I paid,I'd take it at 1/2 price,but thats about it.



I would never buy a boiler without an ash pan.


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## yodayoda

fletcher0780 said:


> i can't get to it right now, I have the gap under my boiler filled with spray foam, but I want to say it's less than 6" from the front of the boiler to the firts set of legs.



OK Thanks Fletcher


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## yodayoda

John D said:


> Yoda,after all the issures you'd buy another one?CB has a good rebate right now,and they burn less wood per BTU of heat output.Id never buy a Shaver again,at the price I paid,I'd take it at 1/2 price,but thats about it.



Yeah, I'm just weighing my options, I don't like the idea of trying to sell my boiler to some other poor sap. I'll let you guys know what way I end up going, maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment.


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## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I would never buy a boiler without an ash pan.



My uncle has 2 CB 6048's.one at his farm,one at home.The ashes arent even an issue according to him.He says he emptys then 2-3x all winter.I dont have any reason to not believe him.


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## fletcher0780

I've got a few friends with them. They are nice, butthe ashes are a huge pain.


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## yodayoda

With the ranco stat and $50 in adding insulation, I still like some of the basic things that sold me on the Shaver, grate with forced draft from the bottom, thick firebox, simple design that I can repair myself if needed. The crude look on the outside doesn't bother me.

After a few easy mods, is there really that much difference in any of the non epa stoves, I'm thinking 1-2 cord difference in wood consumption over the course of a winter? When your cutting 12 cord, another cord or two either way isn't that big a deal.

If the new epa stoves get perfected and use half the wood, in 5 years or so maybe I would change to one of those, or ground source heat pump system.

With buying 12 cord every year in 8' lengths I figure my break even point is 3 years, if I cut at least some of the wood from my own property even less.

I was planning on cutting most of it from my property once I get a year or 2 ahead, but with some help, cutting up a semi load (12 cord) delivered in 8' lenghts goes really fast. We did it in a weekend this year.

I would much rather support our local loggers than the arabs.

Anyway I'm sort of rambling, any thoughts, on my thoughts, on not all that much difference in any of the non epa stoves? or am I out in left field?


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## fletcher0780

My friends CB is no more or less efficient than my boiler. He has a hard time burning large green rounds with no blower, and fights with the ash quite a bit. No doubt his is a much nicer looking boiler and seems to be built better. I'd buy one if they added a grate and ash pan.


----------



## Fishhead

Ended up getting a Natures Comfort and Love it...Same few qualities that sold me on my first shaver and is built way better. Comes with the blower mod Ranco and is completely powder coated. Only thing is the bottom is not insulated so I plan on exstending the skirt to the slab and insulating it that way.


----------



## yodayoda

Fishhead said:


> Ended up getting a Natures Comfort and Love it...Same few qualities that sold me on my first shaver and is built way better. Comes with the blower mod Ranco and is completely powder coated. Only thing is the bottom is not insulated so I plan on exstending the skirt to the slab and insulating it that way.



Fish, What shaver did you have and what NC do you have? Do you notice a difference in operation or mainly cosmetic difference?Did you sell your Shaver yourself?Why?


----------



## derwood91

Fishhead said:


> Ended up getting a Natures Comfort and Love it...Same few qualities that sold me on my first shaver and is built way better. Comes with the blower mod Ranco and is completely powder coated. Only thing is the bottom is not insulated so I plan on exstending the skirt to the slab and insulating it that way.



I have the Natures Comfort and really like it!! I ended up using 2" blueboard up against the bottom of the water jacket as well as a skirt. Made a huge difference. I want to get the metal for the outside of the skirt just for looks.

I went away from Shaver when they kept jerking my dealer around on delivery dates. My dealer worked out a deal with Nature's Comfort.


----------



## Fishhead

Operation is pretty much the same. The shaver went back under warranty issues. It has everything people are tring to do to the shaver to make them refined. Are they good stoves? Probably but not for the money they get for them. I had several buddies look at it and say "how much you pay for that?" tell them over 5 grand and there jaw drops. I could get a nice load of wood in the shaver 250 but you earned it. Im only 30 years old cant imagine being in my 50's and tring to shove green wood in the thing. The NC 175 has a nice big door very well built heavy duty hinges, very nice locking system on the latch.
The blower motor is way bigger has the flap already installed. 1" ports, couldnt understand why the 250 came out 3/4" doesnt make sense for the btu output they say they have. A one piece roof!!! without a 1" silicone mess around the chimney. Also real rope gaskets around the door and a removable ash pan. List goes on and on. If i'm gonna spend that kind of money I want to be proud of my purchase not wish id never had lite it so I could return the thing to my dealer. I didnt know about the Natures Comfort brand until Id already had mine in operation. Same beefy qualitys with a very refined product.


----------



## November Wolf

John D said:


> My uncle has 2 CB 6048's.one at his farm,one at home.The ashes arent even an issue according to him.He says he emptys then 2-3x all winter.I dont have any reason to not believe him.



Your uncle is telling the truth.


----------



## boyland

I am curious how far the pipe extends down into the burn chamber. I am in the process of building a new boiler the first one I created a secondardy burn chamber this one I plan to extend a square tube pipe into the burn chamber about 8 inches and about 4 inches from the back.

What you all think?


----------



## fify59thatsit

*ash auger*



fletcher0780 said:


> I've got the 290 an can put almost 4' logs in. I normally load 2 rows of 20" plus wood on the real cold nights, but burn time still isn't great because of the limited insulation. This summer I'm goind to add 2" hi density rigid foam boards all around the boiler, including beneath it. I think that should extend my burn times greatly. The woodmasters are nice until you need to clean out the ashes. I'm not sure how well the ash auger works, but the ones without can be a pain to clean.



ash augers just drill a HOLE in the ashes ,a small nail or pretty much anything will jamb them according to a friend


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## fify59thatsit

*boiler*

New Plate steel is 35 cents a pound at Gent Steel across the river from where I live in Indiana. Scrape steel is about 60 bucks a ton, so material for your own project is pretty cheap right now.
A person could search scape yards for a vessel for the fire box and other related items.Plans on ebay are cheap.
Use your own skills , use your friends skills ,or local talent along with everything that has been taught and learned on this site and make your own boiler.I sure wish I had. John


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## yodayoda

Well I haven't posted for awhile on the shaver thread, call me crazy but I went ahead and traded my 165 for the 290. Took me a full day to pull the siding off, insulated the bottom with fiberglass, then 2 pieces of 1" foil faced Styrofoam insulation, decided to only add the foil faced bubble wrap insulation to the sides, I was going to put styro, but it would have compressed the existing fiberglass so I didn't know if I would gain anything.
Also filled allot of gaps with fiberglass, slid stainless double wall chimney over the existing chimney, am in process of adding the ronco stat, (it did not come with the ronco, same cheapo stat as my 165) will also add more fiberglass to the roof.
Sorry I didn't take any pics, it's been so hot I didn't feel like going in the house, get the camera and monkeying with it.
Oh also I added Pipe to my top suction ports so it draws water from the front of the stove, returns it to the bottom back. I thought this would be easier than trying to run my return lines up front, good idea? Hope you say yes as I don't feel like changing it it was kind of a pain working through that hot water coil cover.
My wife says only I would completely take apart something brand new and try and improve it, I told her some of you guys did, and are doing this too
Thanks for all the ideas and I hope it all helps this winter as much as I think it will.


----------



## ngzcaz

Well... didn't think this thread was alive and well after all this time. I've spent the non raining days here in NE Pa. ( which are far and few between ) cutting some scrap junk pine that have been dead for years and still standing. Unfortunately when you cut and split them you can get an eye full of juice. So
much for drying while upright. Burnable yes, but probably losing a good deal of potential heat.
Has anyone noticed a crystalline substance weeping from any of their connections ? It has to be the stuff I put it according to the manufacturers specs. Seems like it could actually cut down the flow of water when the system is energized and the worst thing would be how to remove it from all the elbows etc etc throughout the system.

:monkey:


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## hypothesis

yodayoda, I also took my 290 apart and added extra insulation. I added 2" blue board to the sides, top, bottom and front. I didn't take off the back pannel. I had a days work in already. I paid attention to making sure that cuts were straight and joints were tight. Blue board went on first and then the factory insulation on top. With adding the blue board to the front, I had to buy new screws for attaching the siding since the original ones were now to short. The original screws for the sides were fine, just the front ones needed to be longer. Also for the front, I kept the blue board on top of the water jacket areas and used extra fiberglass around the doors where the metal is exposed to the firebox. Just an extra ounce of caution.


----------



## yodayoda

hypothesis, have you used your stove since adding the insulation? did it make a difference? I did't remove the back siding either, but I'm hoping insulating the bottom makes a big difference. 
It still baffles me the bottom completely bare.


----------



## hypothesis

yodayoda, I have not used it since I added the extra insulation. I am curious as to how it'll perform. I can't imagine that it wouldn't make difference. I raised my 290 up 12 inches so the insulation on the bottom is all that much more important. I need to order extra siding to extend the sides to the ground, sealing off the bottom to keep the critters out and the wind.


----------



## John D

hypothesis said:


> yodayoda, I have not used it since I added the extra insulation. I am curious as to how it'll perform. I can't imagine that it wouldn't make difference. I raised my 290 up 12 inches so the insulation on the bottom is all that much more important. I need to order extra siding to extend the sides to the ground, sealing off the bottom to keep the critters out and the wind.



When i set mine on a pad this summer,I am just going to run a full course of 8" block and a cap block under it,that should give me a foot raise,then ill just put r10 2" blue board 1ft high all around the inside,and keep the r 19 i have now under it,that should help a lot.


----------



## yodayoda

What type of pex fittings did you guys use? I used sharkbite fittings and Watts brand equivalent, 3 of the 4 watts brand leaked when I filled my new stove, none of the sharkbite ones leaked. Also none of any of my fittings leaked last winter so I was kind of surprised when I had leaks . I bit the bullet and bought a crimp tool and redid all the watts fittings with internal fittings and the stainless crimp rings, worked great. Now I'm wondering if I should redo all the sharkbite fittings also:censored:
I have to rebuild my BIL trany on his caravan this week so I don't know when I'll get back at my stuff. aint family great:taped:


----------



## fify59thatsit

*drillspot solenoid*

Did anyone else lose a drillspot solenoid last season.
Mine quite after about 4 weeks of use? John


----------



## yodayoda

fify59thatsit said:


> Did anyone else lose a drillspot solenoid last season.
> Mine quite after about 4 weeks of use? John



A what?


----------



## John D

fify59thatsit said:


> Did anyone else lose a drillspot solenoid last season.
> Mine quite after about 4 weeks of use? John



I dont think my OWB has one of those.I lose my tools,and mind all the time though if that counts for anything....


----------



## fify59thatsit

*drillspot solenoid*

Sorry ,I should have explained better.
I was referring to the 110 volt solenoid I bought from drillspot .com to open the flap on my blower motor when the ranco stat calls for heat.
Mine lasted about4 weeks last season, and was curious if anyone had one give up also? John


----------



## yodayoda

I did the ronco mod on my new stove, but no flapper mod, thought I would try it this way first, I did go ahead and change out all my sharkbite fittings for the internal ones with the crimp rings,(see post 514 above) now I was reading on woodboiler solutions website, they do not recommend any aluminum components in your system. I have a homemade heat exchanger in my shop made out on aluminum car radiator:censored: Now I'm thinkin I should change that out, I'm gettin real tired of this project


----------



## fletcher0780

I haven't done a single thing with my shaver other than draining it. I'm waiting for a friend to come over with his excavator so I can level off the area around it for a shed and lift it up on some blocks. I still need to pull it apart and insulate it and I'm trying to figure out the best way to do the bottom. I plan to use that high density foam with the silver coating the same way most of you have used the blueboard, but I may just spray foam it? 

My drillspot solenoid worked well all winter.


----------



## Fishhead

I sat my 250 on a 2" piece of foam. Legs are pipe so it cut threw the insulation and sat on the concrete. Worked well.


----------



## fletcher0780

Fishhead said:


> I sat my 250 on a 2" piece of foam. Legs are pipe so it cut threw the insulation and sat on the concrete. Worked well.



Did you have it running like that last year, if so how did it work?


----------



## John D

fletcher0780 said:


> I haven't done a single thing with my shaver other than draining it. I'm waiting for a friend to come over with his excavator so I can level off the area around it for a shed and lift it up on some blocks. I still need to pull it apart and insulate it and I'm trying to figure out the best way to do the bottom. I plan to use that high density foam with the silver coating the same way most of you have used the blueboard, but I may just spray foam it?
> 
> My drillspot solenoid worked well all winter.



Same here! We have had the wettest June in history here,Ive been swamped with summer work as a result.I just have to pop the pallet forks on the SS and move it,form up the area,and pour the 4000psi concrete.GOing to raise it up,insulate better and hope for the best.Im hoping i have time to get everything done i wanted too at this rate.


----------



## KYDave

*New Guy*

Hi Y'all,
I got a Shaver 165 a few months back, and am looking at starting installation by the first week of September.

I sure was glad to find this thread...lots of info.

As I'm accumulating the supplies to make my pipe runs, I wonder where to buy the Solarguard insulation?

I've found one online group called Cabbot.

Also, what specific flavor of Solarguard to use? I've been looking at this one
http://www.shopcabotcomponents.com/rfs-408.html

I have to make a total run of 200', owb to 2 house furnaces, and 120' of that is outdoors. So I'm looking at trying using either one 6" flex-pipe or two 4" flex-pipes as the conduit. I have to pull 4 1" pex and two 3/4" pex, as well as the two 12/3 wires.

The soil horizon here will make digging a trench below the frostline a rather optomistic endeavour, so insulation is going to really count.

Would you all recomend just wrapping the pex in Solarguard? I was looking at at least putting the send lines in those 6' poly pipe insulation sleeves from Lowe's.

Your thoughts appreciated.

David Breeze


----------



## yodayoda

KYDave said:


> Hi Y'all,
> I got a Shaver 165 a few months back, and am looking at starting installation by the first week of September.
> 
> I sure was glad to find this thread...lots of info.
> 
> As I'm accumulating the supplies to make my pipe runs, I wonder where to buy the Solarguard insulation?
> 
> I've found one online group called Cabbot.
> 
> Also, what specific flavor of Solarguard to use? I've been looking at this one
> http://www.shopcabotcomponents.com/rfs-408.html
> 
> I have to make a total run of 200', owb to 2 house furnaces, and 120' of that is outdoors. So I'm looking at trying using either one 6" flex-pipe or two 4" flex-pipes as the conduit. I have to pull 4 1" pex and two 3/4" pex, as well as the two 12/3 wires.
> 
> The soil horizon here will make digging a trench below the frostline a rather optomistic endeavour, so insulation is going to really count.
> 
> Would you all recomend just wrapping the pex in Solarguard? I was looking at at least putting the send lines in those 6' poly pipe insulation sleeves from Lowe's.
> 
> Your thoughts appreciated.
> 
> David Breeze



Dave I ran mine inside 4"pvc glued all the joints and wrapped the pex in the foil faced bubble wrap insulation, I was very worried about using any type insulation that loses all it's R-value if it gets wet.I also t'd off the 4'pvc at its lowest point and ran a drain with a capped end, just incase some water did get in, I could drain it. I couldn't believe it but water does get in on heavy rains.All it takes is one glue joint thats not perfect.

I would be very afraid of running the flexible drain tile type pipe, from what I've read it's inevitable it will eventually let water in, then you have a mess, all your heat going into the ground.

Knowing what I know now, I would have forgot about the potable hot water coil in my shaver, bought a side arm heat exchanger and bit the bullet and bought the expensive insulated pipe for my underground part, we have a local Central Boiler dealer that carries the logstore brand for around $12 a foot.If youve already bought pex try and return it or use it where it doesn't run underground. Thats what I wish I had done, even if I had to save up some money for another year before installing.

By the way your username "KY" Dave had me a little worried untill I saw you were from Kentucky. LOL


----------



## Windwalker7

I got my Solar Guard directly from Shaver/Weld Rite.

Ran 2, 1 inch pex and 2, 3/4 inch pex in 6" schedule 40 pipe.


Stuffing all that solar guard wrppaed pex in a 4" pipe will be hard to do.


I was worried about the flexible conduit getting a puncture so I went with schedule 40 pipe glued together.


----------



## KYDave

So if I put two 1" & 1 3/4" pex and adequate solarguard or bubble wrap insulation into a 4" pipe, do you guys think it will fit ok? Then I'd just need to lay two such pipes into the trench.

BTW, the trench gets initial backfill with either small gravel or else milled topsoil, then the rough stuff.

Also, I understand the Shaver wiring diagram for running one pump/furnace. Exactly how do you wire up for two pumps/furnaces ? Simply duplicating the hookup starts getting too many wires (too much electricity ) to the blower fan, it seems.

Dave

Yes, we do have many jellys & jams in KY. And we also have a lot of fun when we get together. But you should pronounce it "Kentucky-Dave" ;>


----------



## ngzcaz

RE : Solarguard.. I would interwrap them so that neither is touching the other in the width of the roll ( approx 3 or 4 feet at a time ) Overlap it so that you can just slide it in the pipe. On the first section leave approx a foot of the pex completely unwrapped. Drill a hole in the pipes about 2 inches from the end. Tie a nylon rope thru the holes. Drop the rope in the pipe so that you have some left out of the pipe to pull. From the other end, wrap your pipe and seal it with S.S. or aluminum tape sideways and when you slide the next piece of solarguard to meet that one. I also wrapped the tape around the three pipes so that nothing was exposed. You can do any length but is a bit time consuming. Having a partner is almost a must. One pulls the other slides/pushes the now one unit of pipes in the larger pipe. I put everything in one 6 inch pipe but I only ran 2 pieces of pex.

Do this in the warm sun and it will go easier.


----------



## Windwalker7

I had a 100' run. Four inch pipe would be a tight fit in my opinion. I used 6" pipe.

I used one of those snakes/drain openers (coiled flat metal) to get my pull rope through the pipe after it was glued.

Pushed the snake through, tied the rope and pulled it back through.

Tied/ duct taped the solarguard wrapped pex and pulled it through.

I did not seperate the pex with the solar guard. I just wrapped it all together and used zip ties over top the solarguard. I run the pump 24/7, so I figured it would eventually all be the same temperature.

I admit it was a royal PIA getting it all wrapped and stuffed in the pipe.


----------



## Windwalker7

If you can find someone close to you that has their Shaver hooked up, might be worthwhile to go look at their set up. It certainly helps you to understnd and plan your set up.

I was in your shoes and can understand how you feel and your concerns. 


Seeing another set up helped me understand much more.


----------



## KYDave

I've recieved my pex, wire & drainage pipe.

Since I have to make a 110' run from the owb to the house foundation, I bought a 250" roll of black non-perforated drainage pipe. That lets me make two runs from the owb to the house.

One run will have hot, one run will have cold. Each run will have two 1' pex and one 3/4' pex + a 12-3 wire. Insulation will be the double aluminumsingle bubble insulation. I think I have enough to wrap the pex bundles about 3 times, and lots of extra space within the 4" black pipe.

The black pipe will be well beded with round gravel and milled topsoil, so no crushing or intruding rocks should present a problem. Wishfull thinking?

Since my total run from owb to house furnaces is @ 200', I bought 300' rolls. That lets me feed pure pex thru the black pipe before I begin insulating the last 110'. Should be an easy pull.

The left over pex will serve to heat my shop.
After 20 years of suiting up on weekends and "having fun" in my shop, I can't wait to turn on the heat. 

David Breeze


----------



## KYDave

Well, I got my 120' long trench dug from the owb to the side of the house. Two foot + depth, looks good. My wife & I started laying out the Pex, what a hoot. That's the squirreliest stuff I've ever seen. We finally figured out to make a spool using two sawhorses was the way to unwind the pex so it laid somewhat flat.

We're running two 4" pipes, each with a 3/4" and two 1" pex and a 12/3 wire. We have gotten three layers of insulation wrapped, taped & zip-tied around the pex bundles.

So about those Ranco thermostats....all I see mentioned is the base model 1110000. It is rated nema 2. The Ranco ETC-141000 is identical to the Ranco ETC-111000 except that this unit is rated NEMA 4X. NEMA 4X means it is water and corrosion resistant and is suitable for outdoor installations or other locations where it may get wet or be subject to high humidity.

The nema 4 unit is a few bucks more, but seemingly worth it? Any thoughts?

David Breeze


----------



## fletcher0780

KYDave said:


> Well, I got my 120' long trench dug from the owb to the side of the house. Two foot + depth, looks good. My wife & I started laying out the Pex, what a hoot. That's the squirreliest stuff I've ever seen. We finally figured out to make a spool using two sawhorses was the way to unwind the pex so it laid somewhat flat.
> 
> We're running two 4" pipes, each with a 3/4" and two 1" pex and a 12/3 wire. We have gotten three layers of insulation wrapped, taped & zip-tied around the pex bundles.
> 
> So about those Ranco thermostats....all I see mentioned is the base model 1110000. It is rated nema 2. The Ranco ETC-141000 is identical to the Ranco ETC-111000 except that this unit is rated NEMA 4X. NEMA 4X means it is water and corrosion resistant and is suitable for outdoor installations or other locations where it may get wet or be subject to high humidity.
> 
> The nema 4 unit is a few bucks more, but seemingly worth it? Any thoughts?
> 
> David Breeze



as long as it is 120v triggered your good to go. I ran my 111000 all last year mounted inside my back door with no problems. Another option that may be worth more to you would be going to the two stage Ranco. You could set a low temp limit that would lock out your oil/gas/electric heat as long as your shaver water temp was above 130* degrees. I've got a second aquastat doing that for me, but would have done them both with one if I knew ahead of time.

On a side note, has anyone found a digital temp display compatible with the 0-10v output on the Ranco to monitor the boiler temp from inside your house?


----------



## KYDave

I've not seen anything about this in this thread, and not been thru the Forum, searching.

My neighbor has another brand owb, and likes it a lot, ran it all last summer & winter.

He tells me he has a bypas valve at his heat exchanger in the house. It is wired to the thermostat & furnace fan, I presume. He runs his pump 24/7, but the valve only opens the heat exchanger when heat is called for and the fan kicks on.

He says his installer ( an HVAC guy ) maintains that without taking the exchanger out of the loop when heat is not called for, there will be way too much heat wafting out of the house vents, thereby making it impossable to regulate the house temperature.

I sort of brushed this off, since his house is fairly new, less than 8 years old, and mine is well over 200 years old. I have a lot of natural ventillation ;> and don't think it will be such a factor.

But I guess I could see his point.

Any thoughts?

David Breeze


----------



## headleyj

KYDave said:


> I've not seen anything about this in this thread, and not been thru the Forum, searching.
> 
> My neighbor has another brand owb, and likes it a lot, ran it all last summer & winter.
> 
> He tells me he has a bypas valve at his heat exchanger in the house. It is wired to the thermostat & furnace fan, I presume. He runs his pump 24/7, but the valve only opens the heat exchanger when heat is called for and the fan kicks on.
> 
> He says his installer ( an HVAC guy ) maintains that without taking the exchanger out of the loop when heat is not called for, there will be way too much heat wafting out of the house vents, thereby making it impossable to regulate the house temperature.
> 
> I sort of brushed this off, since his house is fairly new, less than 8 years old, and mine is well over 200 years old. I have a lot of natural ventillation ;> and don't think it will be such a factor.
> 
> But I guess I could see his point.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> David Breeze




I see what he's done, but don't necessarily agree it's impossible to regualte temp if you don't have a bypass valve. 

Mine doesn't have a bypass valve, pump runs 24/7 and we can regulate fine...now I'm sure his way is more effecient, with less heat loss, but not necessarily impossible IMO.


----------



## projectsho89

KyDave,

I don't have such a bypass installed (yet).

The upstairs (2nd floor) bedroom whose air trunk lines are closest my exchanger gets a very warm natural draft . That room stayed very warm last winter when the exchanger was hot even the blower never ran. The bedroom on the other end of the upstairs requires a duct booster to keep it semi-comfortable when the blower is running.

Your HVAC guy has a good point.


----------



## smus

*Wood orientation during burn*

I have noticed that the wood burns away very quick at the front of the stove and slower toward the back due to the forced air mostly coming from that area. I have wondered if stacking the wood in the stove at an angle across the grate rather that with the grate would make any difference in burn times.
I have also thought it would be nice if there was a way to even the flow of forced air across the entire grate area rather than the small area at the front. I think a more complete burn would result and would not leave a bunch of coals and unburned wood at the back of the stove that I see each morning.


----------



## KYDave

I've noticed the same thing, the fire burns directly from the front of the grate, straight back to the bottom of the chimney pipe. It all burns, give time. I've wondered if strapping on ( welding this summer if it works ) a half pipe extension that would at least make the smoke/exhaust exit from the backside of the chimney pipe. The half pipe would face the front or the grate, and the smoke would go out on the backside.

BTW, I only found one flaw with my Shaver. The overflow pipe was not fully welded in place. There was a 1/8" hole where the weld was started and ended. It took me a couple of weeks to find it, but all of 15 minutes to mig weld it. No problems.

Also, I guess since I'm heating (?) a 4,000 sq ft + house that is more than 200 years old, and I have almost a total run of 200 ft from owb to house furnaces, my Shaver does a very nice job down to 25 degrees. Major reloading twice a day, with a moderate reload when I get home from work @ 4:30 works out well. Below 25 and it takes more reloads, which I can't do during the work week.

Soooo, I bought the coal shaker grates and have been experimenting with small amounts of coal. I get any amount of Stoler coal free, since I work in the Physical Plant at the University. But it is really too small, about golf ball size or smaller. This size will fall right thru the grates, and either wind up in the ash bin or clog up the grates. So I've been putting two coffe cans worth just on each side of the grate, in the front only.

The coal makes a big difference when it gets below 25 degrees. If I could find egg or stove coal, say tennis ball size or bigger, I'd be tempted to load in an entire bed of coal.

Also, the stoler is Kentucky bitumineous, which they say smokes. It does when it first light up. I guess Pennsylvania anthricite would be better. Problem is finding a dealer with some coal. No luck yet.

Any of you guys tried coal?

David Breeze
( you might know the winter I go to owb heat that we'd have two months of sub-artic air )


----------



## fletcher0780

KYDave,

Have you added any inlation to the Shaver? There is zero insulation under the boiler and not enough on the sides. You may find you can stretch out time between fillings a bit with more insulation. I'm heating about 4500 ft2 in CT with my 290.


----------



## KYDave

Fletcher,
I added plenty of insulation to the underside. The way I built the concrete pedestal, I was able to place loads of insulation to the underside ( I'd read about that in this thread ). I've not added anything to the sides, though. While tracking down the overflow pipe leak, I did have that one side off, it's easy enough. That will be on the list for summer improvements. I did shoot a can of expanding foam into the gap where the owb sits on the pedestal, for what thats worth. And I did open up the back door and put insulation in there.

BTW, I think it was you who was asking if anyone knew of a remote or wireless thermometer, so you could know your water temp without leaving the house. I've seen this recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Outdoor-wood-bo...aultDomain_0?hash=item3efbcf9bc3#ht_854wt_931

Rather long link, I hope it's correct.

David Breeze


----------



## John D

Just wanted to add an update here. I have been burning since oct 15th or so.Just this week,I decided to give the firebox a good cleaning,since over the holidays I burned a lot of paper,gift wrap,and carboard in there,and it was building up. After cleaning it became apparent that I need to do this more often,the efficency of the unit went up quite a bit,my wood consumption went down about 20% since the cleaning easliy,maybe more.Now I dump the ashes every 3 weeks or so,the ash bin was empty,the buildup was especially heavy in the rear of the unit where it is difficult to access and clean,sep on the 250 and bigger units,and the firebox is so deep,and the door so small.I used a hoe,and got the rear all cleaned nice,also scraped some creosote off the sides,and back.The improvement is more than i could have hoped for. I think i was blocking a good portion of the heat exchange area on the furnace,esp in the rear,the entire rear section had ashes insulating the rear exchange area.So anyone using more wood than usual should take look at how deep the ashes and coals have built up,and consider a good cleaning,I let mine burn down to almost nothing and the cleaning took about 1/2 hr to do a good job,well worth it,and the ash i got all over me...


----------



## ngzcaz

A while back while everyone was experimenting to see what worked and what didn't, someone suggested putting firebrick along the sides. This seemed to me to defeat the purpose of distributing the heat to the water jacket. I also think the cleaner the firebox the more heat will be available to the water. 

I just want to confirm the draft blower mod ( auto closing flaps when motor shuts off ) really is working well. I don't know if its reducing wood consumption but blocked chimneys are a thing of the past and much faster water recovery is being noted. One thing remains.. the water well for a better stat. While I modified mine to be acceptable its simply impossible to be as accurate as a well. I hope the weather lets up a bit. Its been cold here in NE Pa.


----------



## headleyj

ngzcaz said:


> A while back while everyone was experimenting to see what worked and what didn't, someone suggested putting firebrick along the sides. This seemed to me to defeat the purpose of distributing the heat to the water jacket. I also think the cleaner the firebox the more heat will be available to the water.
> 
> I just want to confirm the draft blower mod ( auto closing flaps when motor shuts off ) really is working well. I don't know if its reducing wood consumption but blocked chimneys are a thing of the past and much faster water recovery is being noted. One thing remains.. the water well for a better stat. While I modified mine to be acceptable its simply impossible to be as accurate as a well. I hope the weather lets up a bit. Its been cold here in NE Pa.




couldn't agree more on the water well for a stat man. That and reinsulating are the 2 best things I've done. Don't get me wrong, below 15° she still eats wood like a 86 Suburban drinks gas, but it's leaps and bounds better than last year.


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## John D

headleyj said:


> couldn't agree more on the water well for a stat man. That and reinsulating are the 2 best things I've done. Don't get me wrong, below 15° she still eats wood like a 86 Suburban drinks gas, but it's leaps and bounds better than last year.



I find that cold temps dont eat wood as bad as windy days. It could be zero,and i get 12 hr loads overnight no problem if there is no wind.On a 20 degree night with wind,I will use a lot more wood.My home is fairly tight,and I added quite ab it of insulation to the shaver over the summer.


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## headleyj

John D said:


> I find that cold temps dont eat wood as bad as windy days. It could be zero,and i get 12 hr loads overnight no problem if there is no wind.On a 20 degree night with wind,I will use a lot more wood.My home is fairly tight,and I added quite ab it of insulation to the shaver over the summer.



haven't correlated wind to wood usage. I do need to add insualtion to the roof of mine again. I kept a generous airspace around the chimney and that's hurting me quite a bit. Also I wonder if the 1 layer of 1/2" insulation board underneath with R19 on top of it is damp/wet at all. Haven't checked that...


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## KYDave

Holey Smokes 

I came home, opened the firebox door, the upper hinge bolt broke, and the door fell down into my lap. It was still attached to the lower hinge mount, so it bent that mount down an inch or so. The top mount was undisturbed.

I ran into the barn and got a couple of AN aircraft bolts. I measured the seperation of the hinge mounts on the door, and used a sledge hammer to beat the bent down lower hinge back up into position. Put the new bolts in place.

There is some mismatch, because the door is now very hard to fully close, I actually have to use a hammer to completely close the handle/latch mechanism. I assume that some minor misalignment of the hinge supports has caused the silicone gasket to be off a bit.

I don't feel like shutting down long enough to install a new silacone gasket ( that would take 24 hours to cure, I assume ). I can see doing that in the spring.

Looking at all the mechanicals of the handle/latch....is it adjustable? Is there an easy temporary fix? It kind a bugs me to see wisps of smoke or the occasional spark coming out the door.

David Breeze


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## smus

You might try to place a shim of sorts ( small piece of wood etc) between the U shaped bracket and then close the latch assembly. I have been thinking of adding an adjustment bolt to that area so that when things get a little sloppy you could just tighten the bolt a little and increase the clamping force applied to the sealing surface. It will have to wait till spring tho.


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## bluscout

Same thing hapened to me about a month ago. I used some 1/4 20 grade 8's.
I spent some time adjusting (tweeking with a hammer) the lower hinge so that it was aligned with the upper (unbent) hinge before installing new bolts. The door actually opens and closes easier now than it ever did before.


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## smus

After hearing someone else with worn bolts, sounds like a potential problem to me. I think the next warm day will see some new bolts in mine before they decide to break.
Also, try some anti-seize on the hinges and the locking assembly. You will be surprised how smooth the whole thing is afterwords and one application lasts for a few months. I put some on the ash tray hinges and the threaded knob as well to keep them from sticking.
If you get it on you, you know how hard it is to get off.


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## John D

Are any of you guys with breaking bolts forcing the door shut on chunks of wood? Just wondering how they are breaking,there isnt much pressure on them,they should be fine...


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## KYDave

JohnD,
Your point is well taken. In my case I will admit I never paid a bit of attention to the two hinge bolts, untill one broke. I should have slathered it with grease of some type...only makes sense.

But I will say that the broken bolt was a very cheap "stove" bolt, threaded it's entire length, and of questionable grade. I didn't see any grade 3, 5 or 8 marks, so I'd bet they are cheap hardware store bolts.

They also shouldn't be threaded the entire length. That's why I used AN bolts as replacements. They have a smooth grip, better suited to acting as a hinge.

I'm now wondering what is the general proceedure for creating a new silacone gasket, and wondering what luck others have had by installing a rope-type gasket.

David Breeze


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## bluscout

John D said:


> Are any of you guys with breaking bolts forcing the door shut on chunks of wood? Just wondering how they are breaking,there isnt much pressure on them,they should be fine...



I haven't done that although I know others do. Seems like a bad idea to me....especially over time.
Thinking back, I did notice that the door was always stiff but I didn't get around to looking at it. The bolt failed when the furnace had been in use for about six weeks.
The bolt was an ungraded extemely cheap bolt with no shoulder. I'm pretty confident that the problem won't return.


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## headleyj

same thing happended to me - my top hinge bolt rusted to the point where one day, it flat broke. Replaced both of them with GR8 IIRC and no they weren't fully threaded. I put some grease b/t the metal contacts and a delrin washer as well - i know it'll wear out eventually, but it's the best I had at the time.


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## smus

I looked @ my hinge bolts today and they appear to be GR5. Must not have a standard bolt supply @ shaver. I do believe I will change them when the weather breaks a bit.


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## scag52

KYDave said:


> Holey Smokes
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at all the mechanicals of the handle/latch....is it adjustable? Is there an easy temporary fix? It kind a bugs me to see wisps of smoke or the occasional spark coming out the door.



I read on here somewhere that a guy recomended scraping the opening at the door when he loads the stove. Someone replied that they didn't want to do this everytime and i was thinking along the same . Well i noticed a few wisp of smoke and thought i would have to replace the silicone. After checking the stove edge i found it had build up on it. I cleaned it off and it sealed fine . So now i take a look at it every few days . Only takes a minute.


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## PURPLEBOWYER

*The shaver 165*

Hello everyone!Im brand new to this site,and the new owner of a 165.I installed myself last month with no modifications.I fired it and heated the house for about aweek before it really got too warm,but I continued to heat my hot water and was pretty satisfied with the job it did,but I let the fire go out about a week ago because I got tired of the creasote mess that spilled out the door everyday.Other than the thermostat swing I have no complaints "so far",but like I said I only used it for a month,and to be honest all the neg threads have me a little concerned.I have a question,being as my heat exchanger is about 3 to 4" above my A coil should I be concerned with running my ac?Could my exchanger freeze up?My neighbor has a hardy and says hes never had a prob.Thank you


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## smus

I strongly suggest you look at the mods that several hve made to their Shavers. They are not really that costly and allow a lot more control to your OWB. I think you will be very happy with your investment.


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## PURPLEBOWYER

Hi!Yeah Im definately going to follow some of the advice here.I like to think I can get the feel for this stove "as is",Im not new to wood burning but new to the OWB,once I have the therm set and my water up to temp shouldnt it stay a constant temp.When I first lit the stove I wanted my water temp at 140 deg so I used a temp gun opened my draft got a roaring fire going and when my gun said 140 I backed my therm off til the fan quit,the temp rose another 10deg and that was it,I have my draft set at about 1/4".My water temp at the stove stayed between 150 and 155 deg.Im thinking that Ill bump the temp to 170 come cold weather,sure glad I found this site.


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## headleyj

PURPLEBOWYER said:


> Hello everyone!Im brand new to this site,and the new owner of a 165.I installed myself last month with no modifications.I fired it and heated the house for about aweek before it really got too warm,but I continued to heat my hot water and was pretty satisfied with the job it did,but I let the fire go out about a week ago because I got tired of the creasote mess that spilled out the door everyday.Other than the thermostat swing I have no complaints "so far",but like I said I only used it for a month,and to be honest all the neg threads have me a little concerned.I have a question,being as my heat exchanger is about 3 to 4" above my A coil should I be concerned with running my ac?Could my exchanger freeze up?My neighbor has a hardy and says hes never had a prob.Thank you



I too worried about the HX freezing. I put a "T" on each fluid path of the HX (1 on the IN and 1 on the OUT) Top of those "T's" is where the water goes in/ out.....middle of each "T" hooked to the HX itself.....other leg of the "T's" I put shutoff valves in there. They act as drains....I have a floor drainright there so it works out well.

THis year I added a shutoff before each "T" so I wouldn't have to drain all the lines to drain the HX. I get a little bit of a vacumm lock, but not enough to worry me. WIth the upstream T's shut off, drain T's open and the AC blowing full blast, I'll get a trickle of water from the HX drains for a day, then it's done. I leave them open during the summer to ensure water has a place to go if it needs to.

wow - that was a damned novel - hopefully u can follow it - I'm on vacation without internet access for 10 days starting in 30 minutes, so I'm not ignoring you if you respond...


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## John D

As everyone here knows,I tell it like it is...I an happy to post something positive about the Shavers.....I have to say that in spite of the Shavers having very low fit and finish and poor quality control,they seem to do pretty well on wood,esp the big 340...in fact,the second 340 we got in our order ,my cousins, was brought online this winter,heating an 8000 sq ft home.Both 340s are heating at max capacity with zero trouble keeping up,the other 340 is heating 2 homes,both over 4000 sq ft....one with high celings,but both homes are relatively new and tight...I want to add that both these 340s are using substaintially less wood than the 6048 CB boilers my uncle is running right down the road.....and the 340s are heating bigger homes....the last 340 is using about 1/2 the wood of a CB 6048...heating a bigger home with 10 ppl living in it,the 6048 has 6 ppl and 2000 sq ft less,and its a newer home...the same ppl fill both OWBs every day,and have no reason to fudge the wood useage numbers....the 6048s used about 14 cord each,the one 340 used 7-8,the other about 12(heating 2 homes).Both CB OWBs are using thermoplex,both shavers are using cheap triple wrap solarguard,in a 4" drain pipe...all circs are wired to run 24/7 on all OWBS.All are using mixed hardwood from the same wood pile....


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## headleyj

OK - new question - insulating the wood loading door

I lose alot of heat out that door (when it's closed - no smart azzes )

Ideas:
Rockwool
Mineral wool
Firebrick (hard to slip into that"pocket" they've made in the door there
Ceramic Fiber Insulation (made for kilns, etc....)
http://www.prairieceramics.com/PRC/fiber_blanket_boards.html

I think the Ceramic Fiber Insulation Blanket would be the best choice, it can be cut to size and slipped in that pocket. I'd have to tack weld something to prevent it from sliding down , no biggie.....

Thoughts/ other ideas???


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## hypothesis

I used fiberglass insulation in the door. It seems to have done the job. The outside of the door was cooler to the touch. It lasted for two seasons before the outer edges began to break down and needed replaced.


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## smus

Mine is also stuffed with fiberglass. Seems to do a good job. I can hold my hand on the door without any discomfort at all. About the temp of a hot bath.


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## david78

I used fiberglass for awhile but it does degrade over time. I've had the ceramic blanket in for a whole winter and no sign of any deterioration. I just slid it in and it has stayed put; didn't have to add any supports.


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## headleyj

david78 said:


> I used fiberglass for awhile but it does degrade over time. I've had the ceramic blanket in for a whole winter and no sign of any deterioration. I just slid it in and it has stayed put; didn't have to add any supports.



how's the outside temp of the door with the ceramic compared to the fiberglass?


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## david78

I never checked with a thermometer, but I think about the same; warm to the touch, but not so hot you can't leave your hand on the door. Big difference from an uninsulated door with either one.


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## headleyj

david78 said:


> I never checked with a thermometer, but I think about the same; warm to the touch, but not so hot you can't leave your hand on the door. Big difference from an uninsulated door with either one.



k thanks man


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## Yomax4

*Shaver*

Greetings everyone. I too am a new member with a Shaver 250. Without trying to boor you, I wanted to list my history with the Shaver stoves. I wanted an OWB and had certain things I was loking for. Shaver had all of them. ( Simple ) I bought a 165 I think it was. It was the smaller one. I got it on e-bay for $3400. It shiped quickly and I did the install. 1st, The Shark Bites all leaked and I re-plumbed the old fashioned way. Then I filled it up again and Water poured out into the firebox. It had 3 major leaks. Being a Welding type guy I could have fixed it but it was under warranty. They couldn't find any repair guys who wanted to tear the thing apart in 20 degree weather..Shaver offered me a 250 and I just had to pay the frgt. That worked out great. I did the install again and never looked back. This is my 2nd winter with it. I read in the posts a little verbiage about plugged stove pipes. I have this problem often and spend a good deal of time on the stove running a brush through it. I was wondering what you guys have done to eliminate that other than the the fan mod? I have beautiful seasoned Oak so I do not believe I am causing the problem. Even with seasoned wood, I get Creosote running out the door and blobs in my ash box. Maybe I am not keeping the thing on run mode enough. The simple design and the way it exhausts is a creosote maker I know. I heat 4500 sq ft home and 1000 sq ft shop. It seems to keep up with a load of wood 3 x daily. Another thing I read on here was concern of Heat Exchanger Freeze up because it is so close to the A coil. I have had no trouble with that at all. The HVAC guy who helped me with aquastats also sells Taylor OWB's and he said in all his years he has no issues unless the A Coil gets somewhat pluged and it freezes. I think I will still install drains after reading some of these posts. Also, I had major Steam issues if I didn't Silicone the water coil cover. Sometimes if I boil the thing over it will blow that seal and I have to re-caulk. In the spring I will Fab up a new cover that will be held on with wing nuts. If someone could help me out with the plugged stove pipe issues I would sure appreciate it. Maybe I need an insulated pipe due to cold flue temps causing this I don't know.. Thanks and sorry about the rambling...


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## ngzcaz

Welcome.. there are 3 threads on these units with a lot of info if you like. 

*** the 165 may not have kept up with your heating demands so you may have lucked out getting a 250. Since Shaver was monitoring our posts I would have hoped Shaver would be getting better with QC. Sorry to hear about the leaks. That kind of problem was far and few between with these units.

You shouldn't be blowing the water cover/steaming even though its a poor design ( IMO ) if the overflow is working. Most guys were modifying this because of excessive water useage.

If you burn seasoned wood ( I'm using a mix right now ) it should be minimal. That said, I had terrible creosote my first year but I was burning a lot of less than desirable wood. I shoved some fiberglass in the door and put on a barometric type damper instead of the adjustable holes in the stock slide in the blower. ( Are they still using the adjustable slide with the holes or did they change ? ) The last winter was much better. This year the door is a nice brown even with junk softwoods. It fires much hotter than with the stock slide and then shuts off nicely. I've also found if I keep the wood pulled to the front over the grates it burns better. At the present time I have a zero ash bed but somehow it keeps firing as needed. Contrary to other members it seems the less ash I have the better everything is working. The stock theromstat works much better since the ash isn't insulating the steel and giving wild differences. It was common to see 20 to as much as 30 degree temp swings. 

The chimney is reflective of whats going on in your stove. If the door is black and wet, chances are the chimney will be as well. While it may seem a bit of waste, it has to be fired hot to burn off that crap. Seems like yours is choked for air. My blockadges were always above the roof and down maybe a foot give or take. If you give a little more info as to your draft blower/damper setup someone here will most likely have some suggestions for you.

:biggrinbounce2:


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## Yomax4

*Creosote Stove pipe.*

I am just using the Shaver the way it came as far as the blower is concerned. I am considering the setup you are using. Has anyone used the Stainless Steel Metalbestos type of pipe? I just thought that I was getting some creosote because the flue was cooler than the firebox. Ultimatly I would like to have an extra 5' of pipe on top of my stove. It is difficult finding the pipe size that Shaver uses. I did find a piece and am thinking about welding it on as an extension. I am sure you are correct in saying that the unit needs to be running hot to be at it's best. Winter in MN. is near and it will probably be better. 
A different issue. I set a piece of 1/4" x 12" square flat plate on the grate in the front of the stove. That causes the blower air to come up in the middle of the firebox making everything burn much better.


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## smus

I am curious about the use of the plate for the grate.I have thought for some time the grate allowed too much air to the front, and there should be a simple fix. I have not read of any other mods to address this issue. Has anyone else come up with a simple solution. I may scrounge up a plate and try that until I hear of something else. Thx for the idea.


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## ngzcaz

Yes, at least one member put on an insulated pipe and seems to be well satisifed. I was under the impression from the posts by Shaver ( Ben ) that the draft blower assembly was going to be/was changed to a setup several members went to, Ranco I think. If they haven't and you have the slide type adjustment I would suggest that be near the top of your mods. It took me a year to change and it works much better than stock. My mod cost about $ 20, others have done it literally for free ranging from soup cans to a dryer vent mod. Others went the other way and got top of the line changes. Bottom line is I haven't seen a post yet that regretted changing it no matter which way they went. 

I have no problems with the grates. When the temps drop and the wind howls its nice that ample air is quickly warming the water. The stock slide was either too restrictive, or open too far and you had a fire that might have been at least in part for the steaming issues for some folks. In fact when I had too much of an ash bed it wasn't firing as it should have been and seemed to be choked. I welded a 4 inch bolt on the same side but 180 degrees from the curved end of the poker. It kind of looks like a " T ". The curved end pulls the logs to the front, turn the poker 180 degrees and you can get down in between the grates to insure air flow.

:biggrinbounce2:


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## scag52

The Ranco and the solenoid damper are available as a option now.


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## Yomax4

*Damper.*

Gents, I have been scrolling through the forum and I can't seem to find pic's or brands of the dampers evryone have added to the Furnace. I am going to insulate under my 250 this weekend after reading your posts. When the guys delivered my boiler, It came on a steel shipping pallet and they said it costs $80 if you decide to buy it. I offered him $10 and he took it. I beefed up the pallet, Supported the legs and left the stove right on it. Now I have 12" of open air under it. I am unsure if I will stuff Glass insulation under it or buy 20 cans of spray foam.


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## scag52

You can buy it from Shaver for 75.00 or make one yourself.


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## PURPLEBOWYER

Fellas,Id appreciate if someone could post pics of the selinoid damper.Thanks


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## Yomax4

*Damper*

I paged through Shaver sites and could not find anything on the damper mod. It is certain that everyone agrees that it is job 1. I'm chasing the idea now.

For raking the coals, I took an ordinary garden hoe and welded on 6, 8" log pieces of 1/2" tubing. It's narrow enough to fit on both sides of the stove pipe and the tines are long enough to easily pull coals to the front. It works well. 
I took the poker that came with the 250 and cut the end off of it. I heated it up red hot and pounded it flat and I use it to easily remove creosote build up on the sides and bottom. The weight of the poker is such that it really does all the work. 
For Ash removal I took a regular flat shovel and trimed it with a plasma cutter and bent it to the pan shape and it works great for ash removal as well as moving logs around in the stove.


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## fletcher0780

PURPLEBOWYER said:


> Fellas,Id appreciate if someone could post pics of the selinoid damper.Thanks


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## John D

yomax4 said:


> Gents, I have been scrolling through the forum and I can't seem to find pic's or brands of the dampers evryone have added to the Furnace. I am going to insulate under my 250 this weekend after reading your posts. When the guys delivered my boiler, It came on a steel shipping pallet and they said it costs $80 if you decide to buy it. I offered him $10 and he took it. I beefed up the pallet, Supported the legs and left the stove right on it. Now I have 12" of open air under it. I am unsure if I will stuff Glass insulation under it or buy 20 cans of spray foam.


I ran my 250 on the shipping pallet for a season....if they haven't changed anything since 11/08 when mine was built,you should be able to slide 3 bats of r19 side by side under there.That's what I did,it worked perfectly...the shipping crate holds them in place.Hardest part is getting an arm under there to slide the insulation between the crate and water jacket....


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## Holdstihl

I am unsure if I will stuff Glass insulation under it or buy 20 cans of spray foam


Shaver should have supplied a bat of insulation cut to fit under your stove. Mine is 20" off the ground (makes it a piece of cake to load and remove ashes) and I just cut some 2X4 slats to support the bat. Make sure your steam leaks are sealed or you'll have soaked insulation causing condensation on the outer tank walls, rust, etc. Mine had a pinhole in a weld at the top corner of the tank from day one. After a week of operation, there was about 20 lbs of water trapped in that lower bat. I repaired the leak and no problems since. I'd stay away from the spray foam, too messy.


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## scag52




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## Windwalker7

Link to the double wall pipe I slid over flue

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(a...ctDetails.aspx?SKU=45065&&SessionExpired=True


Link to my dryer vent damper 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=110817





I did use silicone around the damper elbow once I saw everything worked well. I could remove the turn buckles now, but just left them there.

This mod is definitely easy and makes the stove a different animal. Works much better!


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## Yomax4

*damper..*

Going Damper shopping.. I want to thank you guys for the re-posts and all the info. I thought my stove performed pretty good. I can't imagine what it will do with the mods.

Thanks Again.


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## jollyroger

*weak fire*

Question: When you blower is on and you open the door do you see a blazing fire (actual flames) mine is full of smoke and the blower has been blowing wide open fore 2 days. It seemed to work fine the previous weeks (damper only about 1/3 open then), but all I ever got was a smoldering fire even with the blower on. I would think with the blower full blast it would be an inferno in there, but I have ever had is smoke until the front door is opened. I am burning 1 year old cured oak and can't seem to get much going. Is this smoldering normal even with the blower on? thoughts?


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## Yomax4

*Smoke.*

Hmm. Sounds like mine when the chimney was pluged full of creosote. Stove would not use wood and put out no heat.. I snake it out a lot this time of year..Looking at the insulated pipe slip over option to help with that.


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## ngzcaz

Ditto that on the chimney. Logical and cheap place to start. Should be a blast furnace in there. Its one of the reasons I put an on/off weatherproof switch on the outside of the unit. The fire should be jumping out at you with the blower going.

Second cheap suggestion is make sure the air can get at the wood i.e. make sure the grates aren't blocked with a too thick ash bed.

Third cheap suggestion. Check to see that the ashes aren't too high in the ash bin cutting off the flow of air. The blower motor is working correctly isn't it ?


opcorn:


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## jollyroger

*creosote*

Hmmm. Could be plugged everything else is fine (no ash, blower is blowing). I would not have guessed it would have clogged this quickly, but it hasn't been cold enough to really run it, but the weather is coming. I assume a 5 inch dia brush and some elbow grease, or is there another method? Do I need to let it burn out, or just work quickly? Any brush recommendations?


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## ngzcaz

jollyroger said:


> Hmmm. Could be plugged everything else is fine (no ash, blower is blowing). I would not have guessed it would have clogged this quickly, but it hasn't been cold enough to really run it, but the weather is coming. I assume a 5 inch dia brush and some elbow grease, or is there another method? Do I need to let it burn out, or just work quickly? Any brush recommendations?



Since I'm a bit of an old redneck, I just have small ladder next to the furnace and some leftover 2 inch steel tubing with a 4 inch cross t on one end. Climb up and run it up and down a few times. Takes about a minute including up and down the ladder. Mine blocks right after the pipe exits the roof. I also have the stock pipe on it so its easy to do. Since its such a short time I do it when the draft blower is off and just a wisp of smoke is coming out. If someone added pipe, well.. thats another ballgame.



:monkey:


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## Yomax4

I added a piece of 3' pipe to mine and it will constrict if the OWB is not burning hot. It dont plug per say but it nearly does. I take a piece of re-bar or 1/2" pipe and probe the crap out of it until I can get the 6" steel brush in and out. I wear safety glasses and sometimes a paper mask for the fumes. I caught a big wisp of Creosote smoke and I very nearly passed out. Couldn't breath for 45 seconds. I still think from all I have read that insulated pipe will make less creosote.


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## fletcher0780

I've had two sections of the insulated pipe on for well over a year. The pipe just barely slides down over the original chimney and I have it resting on the roof with a large stainless hose clamp holding the inner stainless section to my original chimney. I burn crappy green wood and have not had any problems, unlike when I had regular black stove pipe as a chimney and it clogged up in a few weeks.


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## Holdstihl

yomax4 said:


> A different issue. I set a piece of 1/4" x 12" square flat plate on the grate in the front of the stove. That causes the blower air to come up in the middle of the firebox making everything burn much better.



Was there a change in the smoke after you did this? Mine smokes like a friggin freight train. I thought maybe it was the wood but I've tried a couple different types - same smoke


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## jollyroger

ngzcaz said:


> Since I'm a bit of an old redneck, I just have small ladder next to the furnace and some leftover 2 inch steel tubing with a 4 inch cross t on one end. Climb up and run it up and down a few times. Takes about a minute including up and down the ladder. Mine blocks right after the pipe exits the roof. I also have the stock pipe on it so its easy to do. Since its such a short time I do it when the draft blower is off and just a wisp of smoke is coming out. If someone added pipe, well.. thats another ballgame.
> 
> 
> 
> I can build one of those "redneck" cleaners. I will give it a go tomorrow. That surely is the problem, I just would not have guessed it would have clogged this quickly, but then again I have been stuffing some cedars in it on occasion (trying to clean up the lot). It seemed to work ok until yesterday. If my wife runs out of hot water again...


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## Yomax4

I diddn't notice any more smoke from using the plate in the front of the grate. Mine smokes when the fan is on too. What I did notice was a more uniform burn down of the wood and the coals. I welded 2 = 2"x2"x1/4" tabs on the bottom side so they would go into the grate and hold it there when I rake or add wood.


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## jollyroger

problem solved. That pipe was completely choked off with a huge slug of tar/creasote goop. Once I smashed it down into the firebox (with a 2 x 4) she roared back to life. I have burnt wood for years in conventional fireplaces and never seen anything quite like that. I wouldn't have guessed it would clog that quickly or completely. I am sure once the cold weather sets in it will fire enough to keep the stack clear, but if not I know the fix. 

Thanks for your help.


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## DLav

PURPLEBOWYER said:


> Fellas,Id appreciate if someone could post pics of the selinoid damper.Thanks



Here is couple pics of mine

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=81190&highlight=dlav&page=9

Post #127


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## Windwalker7

Here is a list of my mods for the new guys. I have zero issues with creosote plugging the chimney. 

Don't get me wrong, I do see some creosote on the firebox door but nothing like it was before the mods.

I run my water temp at 150*



My mods;

Dryer vent blower mod

Doublewall pipe slid over original flue pipe (slid clear down and resting on top of water jacket)

Ranco thermostat with well for probe

Unfaced insulation in the fire box door

Unfaced insulation inside the door on the back that accesses the blower,piping, thermostat

Unfaced insulation stuffed in attic of OWB around fluepipe

Foil faced foam insulation board slid under water jacket on the bottom 


Elbow on vent tube and added extra water (Fletcher's steam fix)





When I refill furnace, I rake ashes/coals over grates. When the blower kicks on it is like a blast furnace, flames are white hot with a tint of blue.

I think this along with the insulated chimney pipe helps keep my flue clean.


I highly recommend the Ranco thermostat and blower mods too.

To install the well for the Ranco's probe, I drilled a hole in the top of water jacket, about 14" in and about 6" to the left of the DHW coil cover plate. Of coarse you could put yours where ever you want.


For the well, I made it out of a 1/4 copper tubing cut to 14 inches long. I soldered a cap on one end of the tube and a 1/4 to 3/8 coupler on the other end. ( this keeps it from falling into the water jacket)

I inserted it into the hole I drilled and sealed it with High temp silicone. Then insert probe for thermostat

This also was Fletcher's idea too. Gotta give props to him!


----------



## smus

I posted earlier that I liked the idea of using using a plate to redirect some of the air in the bottom of the stove. I did not have any plate but, I did have two pcs. of channel. They were about 6" wide and about 10" long with about 2" tabs. I put them in the front of the stove and so far, I kinda like what I see. I seems to burn in more of the area of the bottom, rather that just in the small area of the front. While it is not the "blow torch" type flame I had before, it stills SEEMS more than adequate. I am going to run it like that for a bit then maybe go down to just one channel and then compare.
I have enjoyed messing with this thing. Glad I don't have one of those plug n play models that some have. They don't know what they are missing!


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## scag52

I know what you mean . Sometimes i go to load it up and minutes later I'm kinda bummed that i dont have anything to tinker with.


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## Yomax4

*Plate*

I just went and filled the Puffer Belly full of Oak. I have been using the plate on the grate for 2yrs. I get the Blow Torch effect only it's closer to the center of the fire box. I highly recommend it. I just got home with my blower mod parts and underbelly insulation. Install is this week if the MN. weather permits. I really need to get that insulated pipe installed as well. I guess all I will have to do after that is just cut and split my life away. Haahaa I wish, I own too many engines to maintain and way too many fab projects in the works.


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## Yomax4

*ranco*

I was looking up the Ranco Temp Stats. I am unsure which one everyone uses but I was curious if anyone was using an Aquastat to control the OWB. I use one on two floor heat applications , My Heat Exchanger and my water heater too. They work perfectly and that is why I ask the Ranco question..
Floor heat's are set at 72. Water Heater and Heat Exchanger are set at 140. Boiler is set at 180. Is the ranco used so you can see the digital temp? or what is it with the Ranco that everyone likes. 
"Thanks in advance.."


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## scag52

http://www.etcsupply.com/ranco-etc111000000-digital-temperature-controller-p-86.html

eay to use ,low cost, reliable,digital temp display,accurate

you can find them a little cheaper if you look around. check amazon.com


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## Windwalker7

Yes, we use the Ranco instead of the "hot water tank" thermostat that the Shaver comes with.

The Ranco allows precise control of when the blower kicks on and off. It also has a temp display so you can see actual water temp.


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## DLav

*Ranco stat*

The original stat my Shaver came with had temp swings of 40 degrees. The Ranco digital stat has worked great for me. One mod I would highly recommend. I'm kinda surprised after all this time that Shaver hasn't made that improvement themselves.


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## Yomax4

Thanks for the info. I am planing to change the old Stat for sure. I am undecided between a Ranco and an Aquastat. Very similar in what they do but the aquastat is not digital and most have a 3-10 degree adjustable reaction. I am using 3 now and they work well. The only reason I would not buy the Ranco is a thread I was reading where they complained of multiple failures over a 2 yr. period. Anyone out there had one go bad? I know the Honeywell Stats are long lasting but the Ranco is less cost and a bit cooler because it's digital..


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## scag52

DLav said:


> The original stat my Shaver came with had temp swings of 40 degrees. The Ranco digital stat has worked great for me. One mod I would highly recommend. I'm kinda surprised after all this time that Shaver hasn't made that improvement themselves.


 They have . Its a option now.


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## Holdstihl

*My shaver mods*

I ordered mine with the auto damper but changed the mounting a little by rotating it to the left to keep the door completely closed. While I had the blower off, I ground the booger welds off the flange and siliconed it so it actually seals. The chute below the ash door is attached to the block wall and is probably my favorite mod (other than the wall itself). I use a slightly altered garden hoe to clean the ash bin, piece of cake. Also, makes it easier to load wood, no more bending over - nice. The larger grey box houses the Ranco ETC while the smaller one is the blower shutoff. The back of the wall is open to allow access to the underside of the boiler. Already had to get under there to find a water leak. I added a shim to the door latch to tighten it which helped, still getting a little smoke leakage and will probably have to re-silicone. For this season I'll live with it. The poker leaning on the side is what I use to clean the stack. Dropping into the 20's tonight (finally!), hopefully we can get some of this creasote burned out.:greenchainsaw:


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## Yomax4

Awesome setup.. It's Blocks for me in the spring for sure. I have it on the shiping pallet with mods but the Block is what I need. At 6'5", I would enjoy the block method better. I ordered my Ranco today but I think for this winter I will put a "T" in my outgoing Pex to house the probe. Should be better than What I have until I can put a well in the top. Cold in MN. but I need to get my fan mod installed tomorrow. 

Nice Pic's, Thanks.


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## Windwalker7

I had a little trouble understanding the wiring instructions that came with the Ranco.

Bookmark these sites, they make it simple

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?644-Ranco-ETC-111000-000-120V-Wiring-Guide





http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=40898


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## Yomax4

*Ranco*

Thanks for the Install doc's. I'm sure I can handle this with the pic's. My only question is why no-one is using a simple Aquastat. You just wire it in like a light switch and set the temp with a screw driver and it does the rest. You can set the temp differential from 3 - 10 degrees for reaction time just by turning a wheel. I do like the Ranco and thats what what I will try. 
Temps are supposed to hit 35 in MN. this weekend. What a perfect time to get some outside stuff finnished up and a little more Bow Hunting.umpkin2:


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## Holdstihl

*Ranco*

I didn't even install a well for the probe, just notched the DHW coil cover and dropped the probe in the water. The guys at shaver said this would be ok. So far, so good.


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## scag52

I'm curious to see how it holds up being in the water.


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## Yomax4

*blower*

Did the Blower mod on my 250 yesterday. I had to take the 4" Elbow pipe apart because of space constrictions but I still ended up with a 45 degree pipe. I had to cut the flange off of the dryer flap damper and I used aluminum tape to secure it to the pipe and to secure the elbow to the fan. The boiler loves this application. Clear heat coming out when it's up to temp. She blows smoke like my diesel tractor once the fan kicks on..I had to insert a 3/4 " Deck screw to help keep it closed when the fan is off.. Like it a lot so far....


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## Holdstihl

*smokey shaver*




yomax4 said:


> She blows smoke like my diesel tractor once the fan kicks on..I had to insert a 3/4 " Deck screw to help keep it closed when the fan is off.. Like it a lot so far....



Maybe you aready did this, but try sealing that mounting flange with silicone (after you grind the bubblegum -errrrrrr - welds, and spatter off the face). Also, silicone any small gaps on the discharge side of the blower housing. This seemed to really help the smoke now that ALL of the air is actually reaching the fire. I would still like to see less smoke and my next mod will be installing a larger blower (possibly). I am absolutley convinced that Shaver doesn't use a big enough fan on these larger models. I never had any smoke issues with my 165 with a 50 CFM blower, burning any kind of wood. The 290 (and probably your 250) holds more than twice as much wood and uses a 71 CFM blower??? Doesn't make sense to me. Of course a bigger blower requires a different mounting flange and maybe a little more space in the back, which might complicate things at the factory. My next concern is forcing enough air through that dinky 1 1/4" (or whatever it is) inlet tube with a larger fan (why such a small tube SHAVER??). Also, it seems like the stack ID needs to be 6 or 8" not 5. Any thoughts?


----------



## ngzcaz

As the forums indicate, mods were inevitable due to the old design of this unit. My top five ( in no particular order ) would be

1. bypass to avoid a faceful of smoke when opening the door.
2. better standard thermostat
3. better standard blower setup.
4. A REMOVEABLE ash pan
5. factory insulation around the chimney 

I agree the 1 1/4 inch might be a bit small on the larger units ( seems ok on the 165's ) but wouldn't extending the air tube almost to the beginning of the grates result in a hotter fire & better combustion ? If they hadn't cut the tube flush with the firebox I probably would have extended it by now just to experiment. . Combustion is a bit tricky, you want a nice hot fire but you want the heat inside the stove. Seeing flames shoot out the chimney only serves notice that a lot of heat is being lost. Then again, not enough heat and you have a plugged chimney in short order. A 6 or 8 inch pipe may work on a larger unit. The 165's seem to have enough with the 5 inch.

Ahh.. to be able to direct the building of these units..

:biggrinbounce2:


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## Yomax4

*Puffer Belly*

My 250 smokes like mad when it kicks in. I suppose it's burning all the creosote that formed while it was idle. I have no neighbors so I really don't care that it smokes like that. I did seal it all up tight. 
I agree that the stove pipe should be larger. At least 6" so it is easily reconfigured. I spent months trying to find a piece of the exact pipe they use. I will be welding it on today I hope. I wanted it to be a couple feet taller. I will just tack it on for this winter and install insulated pipe in the spring. 
I sell equipment to some of the big name MN. based OWB companies and to walk through their plants is awesome. Central Boiler, Heat-more and several others. The quality is superb and they are all nearly perfectly assembled. I have to laugh at my Shaver because when the knot heads put my roof on they put it on crooked so it has a 3" overhang on the right front and none on the left. I like the way the unit functions but it's the scabbiest fab job I have ever seen. Now they have switched to donkey #### putty instead of caulk. I guess $60.00 worth of caulk per unit was too much..


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## Windwalker7

Does your Shaver smoke every time the blower kicks on?

Mine will smoke when I just fill it with wood for the first cycle or two. After that, it doesn't smoke much at all. 

I blame the smoking right after a fill on moisture on the wood.

Is your wood dry?


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## Holdstihl

ngzcaz said:


> but wouldn't extending the air tube almost to the beginning of the grates result in a hotter fire & better combustion ? :biggrinbounce2:



I really don't think so


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## ngzcaz

Well... a bellows certainly works with a concentrated air blast. If you opened that little tip into a much larger opening, forced the same volume of air into the fire, seems to reason that the resulting effect to the fire would be much less dramatic. If you are familiar with a common torch and have the air/gas set to flow at a given rate with a given tip, then only change the tip to a much larger tip, the resulting fire will not be the nice hot blue flame. It will have a yellowish flame and be impossible to cut anything or heat up as quickly. I'd think it would have the same effect in this application. It would be interesting to find out.


:monkey:


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## Holdstihl

Windwalker7 said:


> Does your Shaver smoke every time the blower kicks on?
> 
> Mine will smoke when I just fill it with wood for the first cycle or two. After that, it doesn't smoke much at all.
> 
> I blame the smoking right after a fill on moisture on the wood.
> 
> Is your wood dry?


Well, the smoke is definately heavier after a fill. I was home all day today and watched it closely. I set the temp up to 175, and the differential at 5 deg. Minimal smoke after things get hot like you say. The previous settings were 160 with a 15 degree diff. Probably too cool, but its been mild weather here and I figured I could save some wood. Guess you can't have it both ways. And yes, the wood is dry


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## Holdstihl

ngzcaz said:


> Well... a bellows certainly works with a concentrated air blast. If you opened that little tip into a much larger opening, forced the same volume of air into the fire, seems to reason that the resulting effect to the fire would be much less dramatic. If you are familiar with a common torch and have the air/gas set to flow at a given rate with a given tip, then only change the tip to a much larger tip, the resulting fire will not be the nice hot blue flame. It will have a yellowish flame and be impossible to cut anything or heat up as quickly. I'd think it would have the same effect in this application. It would be interesting to find out.
> 
> 
> :monkey:



Right, so how much larger would fan AND the tube have to be to have that effect on an area the size of your grate? Alot Right?


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## Yomax4

*250*

OK... I insulated under my 250. I installed it on the ship pallet after mods. I plugged it up good under there. I had already did a fan mod with the cheap laundry flap and 45 degree stove pipe. Today I installed the Ranco and tacked on an extra 30" extension to the stove pipe. ( temporary ) It took a little tinkering but I think I have created a Monster..I can't wait til tomorrow to see how it all works after the programmable thermostat is done with it.
Does anyone run a programmable stat in the house? Mine shuts the stove down until about 5am. Then in the morning the furnace cycles a few times while trying to catch up to temp. After that no more cycling. House and shop are HOT!! and thats what its' all about!:rockn:


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## smus

*optimum burn efficiency*

I know there has be a way to "tune" the burners to burn @ max efficiency but, have no way of how to determine what that might be. What would be the optimum water temp and spread. Air flow I am sure is also critical as well. It seems to very difficult to measure how well my burner is using the wood I feed it. I enjoy cutting and splitting but, I have other things I like to do as well. The amount of wood used does take a good bit of time.
I wonder if water temp is like speed in a auto and is exponential in usage rather than lineal. What about temp spread? there has been a good deal of talk about it but, has anything been substantiated? I am curious if it has. How could proper airflow be quantified and measured to determine max burn %. 
The "good" folks @ NESCOM have done a good bit of study and seem to give the opinion that wood boilers are about as bad as it gets when it comes to heating. Wouldn't it be nice if they would spend some time and effort in trying to help improve the existing situation rather that trying to tear down a group that is working to reduce our oil needs and help lower our cost of living at the same time.


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## Windwalker7

yomax4 said:


> OK... I insulated under my 250. I installed it on the ship pallet after mods. I plugged it up good under there. I had already did a fan mod with the cheap laundry flap and 45 degree stove pipe. Today I installed the Ranco and tacked on an extra 30" extension to the stove pipe. ( temporary ) It took a little tinkering but I think I have created a Monster..I can't wait til tomorrow to see how it all works after the programmable thermostat is done with it.
> Does anyone run a programmable stat in the house? Mine shuts the stove down until about 5am. Then in the morning the furnace cycles a few times while trying to catch up to temp. After that no more cycling. House and shop are HOT!! and thats what its' all about!:rockn:



I just wanted to warn you if you didn't find out already.......sometimes when I go to fill mine, I will hear the blower running. When I open the fire box door, it will belch flames out.

I have a switch to shut the blower down for this. Sometimes I switch it off, sometimes not. Kinda like feeding a fire breathing dragon.

On another note, I thought of extending my chimney also. I hear the taller chimney will pull more draft. I wondered if it would pull enough to open the flapper on the damper. I didn't want that to happen so I never extended it. 

Might want to keep an eye on that!


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## scag52

> Does anyone run a programmable stat in the house? Mine shuts the stove down until about 5am. Then in the morning the furnace cycles a few times while trying to catch up to temp. After that no more cycling. :



I do ,, (Comes on 73*at 5:30 am ) off 67* at 6:00 am )back on 73*at 4:00 pm Off 67* at 10:00 pm


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## Yomax4

Yes I will need to check again to see if the taller stack opens the damper. It did not seem to at first glance. 

To keep the fire breathing Dragon at bay without turning off the fan, I put in a 1/4' thick x 12"x12" piece of plate at the front of the grates. This seems to keep the roar towards the middle of the beast. One thing that was very obvious was that the new damper system really gets things cookin in a hurry. And because it closes completely, I am using less wood.

I am usure who but some stove manufactures are trying to get these things to be more efficient. What you all have taught me is how to get the most heat in a consistant manner out of the stove. What they need is a way to get the heat with less wood. I estimate that I burn 12 - 14 cords of Premium Oak, Red Elm, Hop Horn Beam ( iron wood ) Hickory and Cherry. Lessor woods I mix in spring or fall would be Maple, Paper Birch and Hack Berry. In the warmer months I burn dry Box Elder and Poplar just to heat water. I turn the other pumps off and just use the pump on the water heater.
From June - August I have burn Propane to heat the water


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## Holdstihl

smus said:


> I know there has be a way to "tune" the burners to burn @ max efficiency but, have no way of how to determine what that might be. What would be the optimum water temp and spread. Air flow I am sure is also critical as well. It seems to very difficult to measure how well my burner is using the wood I feed it. I enjoy cutting and splitting but, I have other things I like to do as well. The amount of wood used does take a good bit of time.
> I wonder if water temp is like speed in a auto and is exponential in usage rather than lineal. What about temp spread? there has been a good deal of talk about it but, has anything been substantiated? I am curious if it has. How could proper airflow be quantified and measured to determine max burn %.
> The "good" folks @ NESCOM have done a good bit of study and seem to give the opinion that wood boilers are about as bad as it gets when it comes to heating. Wouldn't it be nice if they would spend some time and effort in trying to help improve the existing situation rather that trying to tear down a group that is working to reduce our oil needs and help lower our cost of living at the same time.[/QUOTE
> 
> I'm no engineer but I'd think there are too many variables involved, type and moisture of the wood, ambient air temp, BTU load on the boiler, etc. for a consistent high effeciency. There would have to be sensors everywhere and a computer to control the outputs, kind of like a modern diesel engine. The difference as I see it, is that with engines, or any other heating system I can think of, btu output is controlled by changing the rate of fuel (and air in some cases) On or off like a gas furnace, or variable like an engine. With a wood burner, there's a huge pile of fuel with a vast range of stored btu's, controlled by ....... supplying a fixed rate of air - or no air? Yeah, those people might be right. Having said that, I think a more effecient conventional wood boiler would have a huge forced air system (where there would be no smoke when burning the highest btu wood) and a multipass exhaust system to extract as much heat as possible from it. In other words, not a Shaver


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## Yomax4

*Shavaerage*

I just wanted to post back on the Mods you guys made me make. ( out of common sense) I installed the inexpensive but shockingly influencial dryer flap in a stove pipe and a Ranco. Now I am burning less wood and can run the stove 30 degrees cooler due to the reaction time of the Ranco and the blast the stove gets from the damper. These mods along with the underbelly insulation have transformed the Shaver. I used a 1" piece of pex that has a good un removable bend to strap onto the overflow stem. Works great! No Steam anymore!!!!!!


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## Windwalker7

That is good to hear! Those mods really wake up the Shaver don't they? 

They aren't even that expensive.


You'd think someone from Shaver would have done them years ago!

For the vent steam fix I have a piece of 1" pex with a clear plastic elbow. 
I added more water not sure how many gallons but when viewing the elbow the water level is slightly higher than the top of the metal factory vent tube.

If you add more water be careful not to go higher than the domestic hot water cover plate. It might leak.

Before I raised the water level above the factory vent tube, I still had a little water loss. I didn't see any steam but had to add water once in while. Now that I raised the water level above the factory vent tube I haven't added water yet.


With the clear plastic elbow, I can see where the water level is at.


----------



## ngzcaz

Windwalker7 said:


> That is good to hear! Those mods really wake up the Shaver don't they?
> 
> They aren't even that expensive.
> 
> 
> You'd think someone from Shaver would have done them years ago!
> 
> For the vent steam fix I have a piece of 1" pex with a clear plastic elbow.
> I added more water not sure how many gallons but when viewing the elbow the water level is slightly higher than the top of the metal factory vent tube.
> 
> If you add more water be careful not to go higher than the domestic hot water cover plate. It might leak.
> 
> Before I raised the water level above the factory vent tube, I still had a little water loss. I didn't see any steam but had to add water once in while. Now that I raised the water level above the factory vent tube I haven't added water yet.
> 
> 
> With the clear plastic elbow, I can see where the water level is at.




Where did you get the clear plastic elbow ? I've been looking for one for over a year. Is it heat resistant ? I did the inch pex with the bend for the last couple of years but I'd rather have the clear plastic. All I could do was heat up the pex so it loses its color and becomes translucent but you can't see the water that well. I've only been adding water so that the water is about 1/2 way in the factory vent tube. By going higher than the vent tube aren't you making it a pressurized vessel ?

:monkey:


----------



## Windwalker7

I also had just a bent 1" piece of pex.

The elbow isn't exactly clear but you can see the water in it. Kinda clear/whiteish in color.

Got it at tractor supply. They have al kinds of plastic fittings and stuff.

Intead of clamping it, I just put a bunch o silicone to hold it to th pex. So far , so good.

Not sure of the temp rating on the elbow, but being exposed to outside temps should offset the hot water inside it I would think.


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## Windwalker7

Even though the water level is higher it is still open. I'm no physicist, but I think it would still vent. I could be wrong!

Had it this way for awhile.


Hmmmmmm, now you got me thinking!


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## John D

I am suprised to see people using programmable stats in the house for such large temp differences....I keep mine at 69-70 all the time,I find it takes more work,wood,and electric to let the house get down to 67 and try to get it back up to 70,esp in the real cold...and if during that time,someone wants enough hot water to kick on the circ for the DHW 40 gallon superstore...well everything is going to take quite a while to be satisfied...it will do it all,but the indoor furnace temps will lag behind and drop to 140-150 when all zomes are on...even though its 180 outside...


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## Yomax4

I use a programable thermostat that shuts down to 65 at night and 70 the rest of the time. I set it at 65 at night because it is a better sleeping temp for me. In the morning when it calls for heat, The furnace starts and stops about 10 times until the Boiler gets roaring again. Often the wood is nearly gone but it does catch up after about 45 minutes. If I didn't't preffer the 65 night temp I believe too that it would be easier on the OWB.
Also. I added a 30" pipe to my standard Shaver pipe and someone asked if the extra draft caused the fan flap to open more. The answer is not so far. I had put in a 1" deck screw 1/2" up from the bottom of the flap to help keep it closed when off. Everything is working way to good, Makes me think something bad is about to happen.


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## applefarmer

You guys really think it takes more wood to drop the house temp at night then have it recover in the morning, rather then to keep it constant? I really thought I was saving some wood by letting the house cool down at night and when we are not here. I also find it more comfortable to sleep at a cooler temp.

I have a hawkin owb not a shaver and I have a programable thermostat for the house. It kicks back to 68 at night then 73 in the morning and when we are here. It takes about 1 to 1.5 hours to do this depending in outside temp. Yes the boiler is pulling pretty hard when the house is climbing back to 73, but it sits mostly idle when it drops to 68.

However are setups are different (I think). My circulator pump runs 24/7 and I have a plate hx for my dhw. I also have my water temp to cycle between 135 and 165 in the boiler. My house is 2800 sq feet with A LOT of big windows, last year I used about 8 cord. I think I will try both ways and see if there is a difference this week.


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## ngzcaz

Windwalker7 said:


> Even though the water level is higher it is still open. I'm no physicist, but I think it would still vent. I could be wrong!
> 
> Had it this way for awhile.
> 
> 
> Hmmmmmm, now you got me thinking!




If the water level is higher than your vent tube it can't vent. Its a great way to solve the steaming issue because the water level won't let it. I could be wrong here too but I think you have a slightly pressurized vessel. Maybe your water temp is low enough that you haven't had any issues or maybe its venting a bit out that dumb top plate where one adds chemicals ( is it wet around that area ? ) but... Perhaps someone with a little expertise can chime in here.


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## Yomax4

I'm not so sure mine uses more wood because of the temp drop at night. it just struggles to get back up to temp in the morning. My Aquastat on my exchanger in my plenum is set at 135 degrees. If the water gets below that, It will turn off until it senses 135 degree water again which is within 30 seconds or so. Then it keeps cycling like that until it gets up over 135 and then it will run until the house gets up to temp.I too run my pump 24/7 from the boiler to the house. Most of my troubles have been taken care of with the Ranco, Insulation, Fan Mod and Pipe extension. All of these have shortened the cycling times in the morning.


----------



## smus

*Optimum settings*

I posted earlier about tuning the furnace. I realize that there are several variables but, at the same time I would think that even with that considered, there are statements of fact that may be made with studies and experience. The first to come to mind, is what would be the ideal temp setting/spread for maximum benefit of fuel (wood) used. It seems that the lower temps would be most efficient similar to what you who expect with speed and fuel mileage in an auto. I am curious if this factor of usage is exponential or lineal. With that info a more informed decision can be made as to what temps and spread should be used depending upon conditions (outside temps). It may mean that raising the boiler temp from 150* to 175* is no big deal and should be considered when it gets really cold. Then again, it may mean that this increase in temps (approx 15%) may increase wood usage by such a large factor( 20-30% ???) this is not such a good idea.
Hopefully I have made myself a little more clear. If we can save just 10% on wood usage, that is a significant amount of time/money/energy.


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## Yomax4

I usually bump up the water temp when it starts to get real cold like sub zero. I may not have to now because of the Mods. Time will tell but I believe I am using less wood now and I am also running at the lowest water temp I ever have. It's at 155. I always used to run it at 185 this time of year. I think with the Ranco kicking the fan on at a lower differential than the what we got with the water heater temp control has made the difference. Gettin cold in MN. ( went ice fishing today ) so I would guess that I will be crankin it up..


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## John D

ngzcaz said:


> If the water level is higher than your vent tube it can't vent. Its a great way to solve the steaming issue because the water level won't let it. I could be wrong here too but I think you have a slightly pressurized vessel. Maybe your water temp is low enough that you haven't had any issues or maybe its venting a bit out that dumb top plate where one adds chemicals ( is it wet around that area ? ) but... Perhaps someone with a little expertise can chime in here.



As far as pressure goes,there can be no more pressure than what it would take to push the small column of water up against gravity,and force it to run out the vent....this amount of pressure is so minimal,it isnt even what amounts to what you could blow thru a straw under 1 psi......it cannot build any real pressure unless someone extended the vent pipe upwards 10-20 feet or more ,at that point the 1/2" column of water would be heavy enough to offer some resistance to being pushed out,so pressure would build behind it until enough is built to force the water out....Im not engineer,but this seems pretty simple,if im wrong,I apologize in advance....


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## urhstry

John D said:


> I am surprised to see people using programmable stats in the house for such large temp differences....I keep mine at 69-70 all the time,I find it takes more work,wood,and electric to let the house get down to 67 and try to get it back up to 70,esp in the real cold...and if during that time,someone wants enough hot water to kick on the circ for the DHW 40 gallon superstore...well everything is going to take quite a while to be satisfied...it will do it all,but the indoor furnace temps will lag behind and drop to 140-150 when all zones are on...even though its 180 outside...



I agree 100%. I tried the programming thing and it wasn't working out. And I find that once the temp gets a few degrees down for a better part of the day, it has a hard time getting back up and you use a lot more wood.


----------



## Yomax4

My 1st Shaver was a 165 and I had the main pump lock up due to crap in the tank. What that did was let the fire boil the water in the tank until it did push the water out of the overflow. I was using a piece of 3/4 copper tube with an elbow that I had duct taped on. That hot boiling water just bubbled and gently flowed out of the tube. No real pressure or at least not enough to blow the silicone seal around the water coil cover. 2 weeks later I pulled a piece of insulation through the overflow spout that was blocking it. If you buy a Shaver, Do a good visual inpection of the water tank prior to filling it up. In other forums people reported finding candy wrappers, chip bags and cigarette butts in the tanks.


----------



## scag52

I run the programmable thermo. and find it works great. I like it cool at night and the stove has no problem catching up . ranco set @ 148 with a 2* diff. This morning i got up and the house was 67*. I had forgot to change for daylight savings. So i bumped it up to 73 and it only took a few minutes and house was up to temp. I think it would use less wood not running as much at night. I also think the lower diff. is working so the boiler can react as soon as it drops a couple degrees. I have a customer that is running his at 1* diff. Do you guys think that if it cycles more there might be less smoke due to less creosote ?


----------



## smus

*That's what I mean*

Scag, those are the questions that we need answered. I am currently running a 10* variance thinking that the first part of the burn cycle is the least efficient and the longer cycles gives better burns. I don't know if that's correct but, its my theory. I know there has to be a way to determine which way is actually the best using numbers and data. I just don't know what it is. Help from the manufacture's would be great. 
Like I said the Government spent a great deal of time and money on studies showing how terrible wood boilers are to use ( seemed very biased to me), It would be nice if these questions were answered so that those of us who are using them pollute the least possible while doing it.


----------



## ngzcaz

Well, thats an interesting theory. I haven't come across any literature either way. While we're on better burn/less wood, has anyone necked the stock chimney down to say 4 inches or so to keep the heat in the boiler longer ? Would have to be easily removeable for cleaning etc.


----------



## smus

Funny you mentioned that. I was just thinking how much more output we got from our old free standing stove when we closed the damper a bit to hold the heat. Seems logical to me.
Someone else mentioned the recycle of gases. That also sounds good.I would like to able to pull the gas from the top of the firebox and redirect it to the hot part of the flame area. A suction tube @ the top with the blower connected to it pulling outside air creating a venturi effect. Kinda like a turbo but, different.
It just seems to me there is a huge potential for improvement with these burners. Just think of all the improvements already made using simple logic and practical experience.


----------



## ngzcaz

The lowered chimney inside the boiler is " supposed " to create a circular air flow to re-burn the gasses. While it may help, the blue flames I see coming out of my chimney on occasion seem to indicate otherwise. The old time damper would probably work as well. Necking it down also interests me. Think I'll do a bit of reading and see what the physics are in this application. There has to be a max chimney diameter that would allow for the best combination of heat retention and efficiency. At worst, neither way works. But on the other hand......... Sure would be nice if someone already tried one or both of these. Please chime in if its being tried.

:monkey:


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## Windwalker7

I had plans of doing something like this but never tried it.

Was going to try to make this piece out of something to see if it would keep heat from going out the flue so easy.


There have been times when I open the firebox door and see flames going up the flue. I thought this would prevent that. If I had a way to bend some 1/4 steel plate it would be neat to experiment with.

Perhaps one of you guys would have the tools and ability to fab something like this and see how it works. 

Please excuse the crudeness of my drawing LOL! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Yomax4

If you look inside a Central Boiler unit, It has those ripple baffles on the top. That is design to keep the heat and smoke in the combustion area longer to help create a "Secondary Burn". In therory it burns the gas and the smoke. Funny how the Centrals smoke just as much as the Shavers but it also gives them more surface area to heat the water. I have to believe that they have spent the most time and money on research. I have watched them and several other brands being built and the Centrals are different inside than all the rest. They are 2X more expensive as well. I knew a guy who built OWB's similar to the Shaver and he had a Cap type damper on the top of the pipe similar to what you see on Semi's and Tractors. It had a rod that came down and locked the damper where ever you wanted it. I remember it was a little tricky to set to keep the stove from boiling. I think mine carries enough creosote that it equalls a damper or 4" pipe most of the time. ..I really like the adjustable variance. Mine is at 5 degrees and I think I will set it at 2. I doubt that there is much you can do about smoke. Fires smoke when they are cold. It seems it's the Nature of the beast. Speaking of Beast, I like this guy --> :chainsawguy:


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## scag52

I try to put a fat log in front of the stack to block it off some, then load wood in front of stove.


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## jmruggiero

*blower modifacation*

to the ones that use a modified flaper door on the (shaver 165) blower, are you running your blower full blast or are you restricting your air flow some. i did change the theromosat ( that helped a lot) set at 155 off at 160. with the blower running wide open the recover time is about 12-14 minutes and then the flap shuts the air off. been cold out now and am getting 12hr burns on a fill up. heating the house, garage, hot tub and hot water. jim


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## scag52

I had to put some silicone on the flapper to make a seal . Some people turn the blower a little to make sure it closes completely. I have it set to open about 3/4 open. Your pumps run 24/7 or on demand ? Reason i asked is last year i was only getting 12 burns also. House was on demand, shop 24/7. Just switched the shop pump to on demand and now i'm getting 24 burns and then some. Cold here too. I also got the stove inside out of the wind . I knew the wind was a problem .


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## Windwalker7

I run the blower full blast. The flapper doesn't quite open fully when the blower is on because I have some weight (a screw) to help keep it shut when the blower is off.

But yeah, that little swing gate on the Dayton blower is opened all the way up.


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## scag52

Windwalker7 said:


> I had plans of doing something like this but never tried it.
> 
> Was going to try to make this piece out of something to see if it would keep heat from going out the flue so easy.
> 
> 
> There have been times when I open the firebox door and see flames going up the flue. I thought this would prevent that. If I had a way to bend some 1/4 steel plate it would be neat to experiment with.
> 
> Perhaps one of you guys would have the tools and ability to fab something like this and see how it works.
> 
> Please excuse the crudeness of my drawing LOL! :hmm3grin2orange:



Pic looks fine. better than I can do . LOL 
i think i will try to make something like that in the near future. Gotta wait till deer season is over though.


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## Windwalker7

When you get around to making it, please post back and let us know if it improves anything.

My daughters deer from Monday


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## Holdstihl

Sounds like we're trying to reinvent the wheel somewhat. The simple design on bringing the stack down into the burn chamber, allowing the gasses to burn above it is one of the reasons I went with a Shaver. Well, that and the price. I know I've been critical of these things but overall, I'm satisfied. When I open the door during a burn and see the top half of the chamber full of blue flame, I know things are working properly. A square firebox, even without ripples, obviously has more surface area. It also isn't as strong and has more welds to fail. If you're getting flames out the stack, close the inlet door on the fan a little. I would bet that there were flames exiting a free standing stove with the flue damper closed, you just couldn't see them. Choking down a stack would be the same as having one half plugged with creasote, well documented in this forum that performance suffers. In my opinion an auto damper is necessary for decent effeciency out of a Shaver. With the fan shut off and the door closed. I can hold my bare hand over the stack. It can't be over 100 deg. The stack itself is a little warmer, I can only keep my hand on it for a second or two. Point is, very little heat loss there. I'm not saying these are the best boilers available. They are what they are - simple, functional, affordable ......WOW, I think I just came up with a slogan


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## scag52

I cant help but think about the the damper in the stove pipe that was bought up. It worked good for my indoor stove.. I'd bank that stove all the way down before bed . Thats why i shove that log in front of the stack on the shaver. Just trying to slow it down some at night. Cant hurt to try. I got lots of scrap and a mig welder.All i can do i gorrilla weld though. LOL

Thats a nice buck ! Man I'm jealous ! Way to go.


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## Yomax4

I think the Shaver with the all of the mods is as good as it will get. I have never seen flame coming out of the stack but I have always had some form of extension on it. 
Congrats to your daughter on the nice Buck. I am still bow hunting to fill the freezer for winter. Oh, Is that a dead Elm in the background? Looks like a good mushroom / Boiler tree.


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## scag52

Theres always room for improvement.


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## headleyj

when I first got my Shaver and fired it up, I had 2' flames shooting out of the stock height stack. I quickly choked down the fan inlet and put the double wall black pipe on that many here have described....and a rain/ wind cap.

I really think a damper that actutes open/ closed with the fan would help a ton. Just didn't have time this year.

WRT pump on 24/7 vs on-demand, I recently changed mine from 24/7 to on-demand - a very good decrease in wood consumption. I can't get 24 hrs out of it at these temps (single digits at night and 20 day) but it's certainly better than it was!

I have a feeling I will be tinkering with this thing the rest of my life.

One thing I've thought of that would require moderate surgery is a pressure relief valve affixed to the top of the tank and plumbed over by the overflow.... incase you have the overflow mod and are worried about pressurizing, like I am. I jsut worry about blowing those silicone seals out and steaming into the insulation. My entire roof is full of insulation.


----------



## ngzcaz

Just a thought before anyone starts welding. There has to be a way to remove the creosote when the chimney is cleaned as well as ash accumulation. Something that doesn't go all the way to the bottom perhaps. 

:monkey:


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## scag52

I would just make it simple and just set in in place , No welding to the stack. Just heavy mild steel so it would sit there to try it out. I like the damper/hooked up to the fan idea too.


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## headleyj

scag52 said:


> I would just make it simple and just set in in place , No welding to the stack. Just heavy mild steel so it would sit there to try it out. I like the damper/hooked up to the fan idea too.



when you say "I would just make it simple and just set in in place , No welding to the stack. Just heavy mild steel so it would sit there to try it out."

are you talking about a damper?


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## scag52

No sorry , I meant the stack blocker. I have a top notch fab guy that I hire to install these furnaces . I'm going to ask him about the damper for the stack. Seems like someone would have tried it by now . Dont see any other brands with one. Still worth looking into.


----------



## John D

scag52 said:


> No sorry , I meant the stack blocker. I have a top notch fab guy that I hire to install these furnaces . I'm going to ask him about the damper for the stack. Seems like someone would have tried it by now . Dont see any other brands with one. Still worth looking into.



Ive been thinking about it for a while,just been busy with other things....my first method was going to be another solenoid,like the one on the air door.....then i thought about a counterweight,so the fan would be enough to open it,but then the wind would be too,and cresote would eventually make it too heavy to open or stick it...Im watching whatever you do here,im very interested,a lot of heat comes out that stack when its idling,I think a closing cap with a tiny hole so no pressure builds would be ideal...


----------



## scag52

I also liked the idea of the tractor cap . Man that stove would look diesel with a big chrome flapper on top . LOL

I did some stuff recently that made a huge difference. Not sure what did the most though. Here are my changes. 

built garage around stove
finally installed ranco at stove and one in shop
changed shop to run on demand instead of 24/7
Added shim to door and re-siliconed

Last winter i could only get 12-14 hours max. yestersday i waited 26 hours on purpose and it still had a lot of wood in it . I dont want touch nothing now . LOL


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## John D

Changing my pumps to run on demand added a few hours to my burn times easily,especially in the warmer months...almost doubled it...I think my lines are leaking water in,If id went with logstor,probably wouldnt have as big an improvement....


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## headleyj

I've thought about the damper for a long time now and IMO and external, flat plate flapper would be the best solution because it's the simplest and eases concerns about creosote build-up. again my opinion, not fact, save any flames.

You'd have to play with weighting, springs or whatever mechanism you choose (if any), but a solenoid would be pretty easy, but not real pretty 

If the stack pressure is enough to open the flapper, then great, but if it's not.... I'm picturing a coiled spring (if you've ever messed with an automatic choke on a carb - that's what I'm picturing) to help the flapper out, but it's weak enough to let the flapper down when stack pressure drops.

I like simple.


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## headleyj

scag52 said:


> I also liked the idea of the tractor cap . Man that stove would look diesel with a big chrome flapper on top . LOL
> 
> I did some stuff recently that made a huge difference. Not sure what did the most though. Here are my changes.
> 
> built garage around stove
> finally installed ranco at stove and one in shop
> changed shop to run on demand instead of 24/7
> Added shim to door and re-siliconed
> 
> Last winter i could only get 12-14 hours max. yestersday i waited 26 hours on purpose and it still had a lot of wood in it . I dont want touch nothing now . LOL



that's me now 12-14 hrs absolute MAX (single digits at night, 20 in day) and that's with all dry hickory, beech and oak! Stove is resinsulated, flapper on blower, ranco installed and pumps on demand...it's heating a well insualted brand new house (1862 sq. ft) and DHW, no out buildings. I'm kinda disappointed actually. Need to redo the door silicone, get a whiff out of one spot but still !


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## Yomax4

*Damper..*

Ok, I cleaned out the flue and set a piece of steel over the pipe and left about 1/3 of it opened for a test. The house and shop were calling for heat so the fan was on and pumps were running. It actually recovered very quickly and then everything shut down as per normal. 1/2 hour later the 250 started to boil. I had to take the plate off to let out some heat. Maybe that is why the guy I knew had an adjustable setup, Unsure. It seems like the damper would work when running low on wood but when she is full and burning, She needs to breathe. It seems like you would need a damper that worked off of water temp to open when the unit fire up and closes accordingly when it starts to cool a bit. Unsure. I will try only closing off 1/2 of the pipe and see what that brings. There has to be a way but I would rather dampen up top than inside the pipe.


----------



## headleyj

yomax4 said:


> Ok, I cleaned out the flue and set a piece of steel over the pipe and left about 1/3 of it opened for a test. The house and shop were calling for heat so the fan was on and pumps were running. It actually recovered very quickly and then everything shut down as per normal. 1/2 hour later the 250 started to boil. I had to take the plate off to let out some heat. Maybe that is why the guy I knew had an adjustable setup, Unsure. It seems like the damper would work when running low on wood but when she is full and burning, She needs to breathe. It seems like you would need a damper that worked off of water temp to open when the unit fire up and closes accordingly when it starts to cool a bit. Unsure. I will try only closing off 1/2 of the pipe and see what that brings. There has to be a way but I would rather dampen up top than inside the pipe.



if it's boiling when nothing is calling for heat does that indicate air leakage (ie: around doors, blower fan flapper, etc) inducing a draft?


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## Windwalker7

headleyj said:


> if it's boiling when nothing is calling for heat does that indicate air leakage (ie: around doors, blower fan flapper, etc) inducing a draft?



Maybe it is just because the heat has nowhere to go?

Just a thought!


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## headleyj

Windwalker7 said:


> Maybe it is just because the heat has nowhere to go?
> 
> Just a thought!



true, you could play with your temp settings though. anyway - didn't mean to digress the thread.


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## Yomax4

In this case it may just have been that the stove shut down when it got up to temp but there was still a fire raging in there so it suddenly was not using heat and it quickly built up to a boil. After I took off the plate I turned on my shop floor pump to help cool it down and in a few minutes it stopped boiling. It didn't't boil hard, I just heard the bubbles gurgling..Still worth a few more tries.


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## headleyj

yomax4 said:


> In this case it may just have been that the stove shut down when it got up to temp but there was still a fire raging in there so it suddenly was not using heat and it quickly built up to a boil. After I took off the plate I turned on my shop floor pump to help cool it down and in a few minutes it stopped boiling. It didn't't boil hard, I just heard the bubbles gurgling..Still worth a few more tries.



*absolutely* worth a few more tries


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## smus

yomax4 said:


> In this case it may just have been that the stove shut down when it got up to temp but there was still a fire raging in there so it suddenly was not using heat and it quickly built up to a boil. After I took off the plate I turned on my shop floor pump to help cool it down and in a few minutes it stopped boiling. It didn't boil hard, I just heard the bubbles gurgling..Still worth a few more tries.


 I have burned coal in my 165 and have heard it boil WHILE coming up to temp due to higher internal temps during the burn cycle. It never seemed to do any harm.
If the temp "climbed" to boil, and that is out of the norm, it would seem logical that you retained enough energy to boil the water that would have normally been lost after the burn cycle. Sounds to me like you are saving energy and are headed in a positive direction.


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## headleyj

smus said:


> I have burned coal in my 165 and have heard it boil WHILE coming up to temp due to higher internal temps during the burn cycle. It never seemed to do any harm.
> If the temp "climbed" to boil, and that is out of the norm, it would seem logical that you retained enough energy to boil the water that would have normally been lost after the burn cycle. Sounds to me like you are saving energy and are headed in a positive direction.



agree it's all about harnessing every bit of energy you can with our system.


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## Yomax4

Both of my Shavers have steamed like mad once they got to a rolling boil. I don't want that. But. The fact that it will boil may mean that higher water temps with a smaller fire = Less wood. Looks good on paper don't it?


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## fletcher0780

How about this, 6" galvanized and only $14.95:


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## scag52

fletcher that looks like it would do the trick.

Yomax , What temp were you set at when it started to boil ? i was wondering how much it over shot . Are you using a ranco ?


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## Windwalker7

Is it just me, or do I see light bulbs going off in people's minds with Fletcher's post?

The gears are starting to turn.

I even have a feeling Fletcher has a plan, LOL!


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## Yomax4

I was set at 165 and when everything suddenly shuts down ( because of the open flap on the fan ) there is still a violent fire going in there. To plug up the exhaust by 2/3 was too much. I plan to try 1/2 tomorrow and 1/3 after that. Yes using a Ranco. One good thing I noticed when I removed the plate was not too much creosote. It was nice and brown. I used an infared thermometer and it only read 212 degrees. It did not boil badly because I started turning pumps on and adding water.


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## headleyj

Windwalker7 said:


> Is it just me, or do I see light bulbs going off in people's minds with Fletcher's post?
> 
> The gears are starting to turn.
> 
> I even have a feeling Fletcher has a plan, LOL!



almost exactly what I had in mind Fletcher. It's eerie how close my sketches match that! So...are you advertising? Have you tried it on yours yet?

EDIT:

found it
http://www.armysurpluswarehouse.com/product/large-exhaust-flapper-cap-6-4218.cfm


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## fletcher0780

I'm still debating on if I want to try it. might just place an order and see how she does. you could tie a string to the counter weight and give it a few good tugs every now and then to keep it clean.


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## headleyj

I just don't know if there would be enough stack pressure to open it. Guess it depends on how heavy and well balanced it is....may just have to get one and toy with it myself too.


----------



## applefarmer

We have a couple of smaller caps like that on our irrigation pump motors which have vertical mufflers. I can tell you there is a hell of a lot more pressure coming out of an exhaust at idle, and even then the caps kind of bounce and shut. I would think when the owb is a idle it would not even crack it open which would be a smokey situation when you open the door to load the stove. I question if it would even open when the blower kicks on, a 6" exhaust cap is HEAVY! 

If you are interested I have a odd cap on my boiler, I guess its a cloverleaf design? I bought it from my dealer, and hawken recommends using it. It is stainless, the top is sheilded to keep water out and heat in, yet the metal is bent to allow smoke to go up. When my owb is at idle it will make ice sikkels on the edge of the cap, so I think thats a sign it is not losing to much heat, if it refreezes the water vapor coming out of the stove. I can try to post a pic if anyone is interested, or I am sure you could see it on hawken's web site.


----------



## headleyj

applefarmer said:


> We have a couple of smaller caps like that on our irrigation pump motors which have vertical mufflers. I can tell you there is a hell of a lot more pressure coming out of an exhaust at idle, and even then the caps kind of bounce and shut. I would think when the owb is a idle it would not even crack it open which would be a smokey situation when you open the door to load the stove. I question if it would even open when the blower kicks on, a 6" exhaust cap is HEAVY!
> 
> If you are interested I have a odd cap on my boiler, I guess its a cloverleaf design? I bought it from my dealer, and hawken recommends using it. It is stainless, the top is sheilded to keep water out and heat in, yet the metal is bent to allow smoke to go up. When my owb is at idle it will make ice sikkels on the edge of the cap, so I think thats a sign it is not losing to much heat, if it refreezes the water vapor coming out of the stove. I can try to post a pic if anyone is interested, or I am sure you could see it on hawken's web site.



so it is pyramidal in shape to trap the exhaust gases near the top of the flapper and increase/ trap pressure to help open it up?

I couldn't find a pic on hawkens website or in google images.


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## smus

We have used those caps for years on farm equipment and yes there is considerable more pressure coming from exhaust. I think they could be made so that only minor is flow needed to open them by adding a small amount of weight to the counterbalance. Should be pretty simple.


----------



## Holdstihl

applefarmer;2622651 When my owb is at idle it will make ice sikkels on the edge of the cap said:


> Exactly what I was trying to say. There is very little heat loss out of the stack. Funny how a couple pages earlier, we're saying the stack ID should be larger. More air flow would seemingly yield less smoke. Something to keep in mind, these little squirrel cage fans aren't turbochargers. They move air, they don't compress it. Choking the stack will only allow less air into the fire. Instead of restricting the exhaust, why not close off the air inlet a little. This would give the gasses more time to burn off instead of being pushed out prematurely. On a 290, the fan doesn't provide enough air to make this an issue. But on my old 165, there would be a flame out the pipe if the inlet door was more than half open. One mod I would consider is extending the pipe further into the firebox. Perhaps making a 45 degree mitre cut at the bottom of the extension and facing it towards the back wall with the tip 2 or 3" from the floor.


----------



## applefarmer

headleyj said:


> so it is pyramidal in shape to trap the exhaust gases near the top of the flapper and increase/ trap pressure to help open it up?
> 
> I couldn't find a pic on hawkens website or in google images.



It is more of a pyramidal cone shape and there is no flapper. I will try to get a pic for you tomorrow.


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## applefarmer

OK I give up how do you attach pics. It says the file is too large.


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## headleyj

applefarmer said:


> OK I give up how do you attach pics. It says the file is too large.



How I do it....open the pic in MS Paint...go to Image>Stretch/Skew and reduce the size there...save it, then reupload it.....saving it as a jpeg instead of a "bmp" should reduce your filesize too, IIRC.


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## scag52

Here how i do it for Windows vista.

http://www.vso-software.fr/products/image_resizer/

For windows xp 
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

They let you resize a whole folder at a time. just right click on the image.


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## ngzcaz

A guy down the road sells Crown Royal. They have a cap that looks similar to what is being described. The dealer who I have gotten to know a bit confided that a lot of guys end up taking them off because they creosote up and make a mess of the boiler. They can also block the exhaust gasses coming out according to him. No idea how true this is but if anyone knows of Crown Royals and this cap I'd sure like to know what the deal is...

The flapper design, assuming it wouldn't change weight by the amount of creosote that is deposited on it and thereby screw up the counterbalence, seems to be a better idea. 

Gotta love these building blocks of ideas. While its beyond the scope of most of us, I'd really like to know the efficiency of the unit while the draft blower is on and at least as important the heat loss going out the chimney while the draft motor is on. Heat retention in the boiler is what we are all after. Less heat out the stack. Better combustion. Using less wood in a season sounds good to me.


----------



## applefarmer

Hopefully these work.


----------



## Yomax4

*Caps.*

I have tried these caps and 3 others. All were $70 - $95.00, They worked ok I guess in the coldest of the season when there is a lot of cycling going on in the stove. I had terrible troubles with caps in the " smolder season " when the fan is not running as often and the house is calling for less heat. They do eventually plug up with creosote. The biggest problem with them is that you can not hardly get them off when you want to snake out the flue. Something I do bi-monthly. At least with the rain cap idea you can hit it with a wire brush once in a while if it creosotes up and you can flip it back to snake the flue.


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## Yomax4

*Hot Tip*

Hot Tip of the day. Do not open fill valve, Get side tracked and return an hour later to see why you have no heat. The ice rink will be nice though.:angry2:


----------



## mistergreentree

yomax4 said:


> Hot Tip of the day. Do not open fill valve, Get side tracked and return an hour later to see why you have no heat. The ice rink will be nice though.:angry2:



Very true...been there and done that!


----------



## Windwalker7

LOL!.....Now that was funny! 



Sorry to here you had some problems, but I did get a good laugh out of your post.

We all learn by mistakes!


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## scag52

Man I cant tell you how many times I've done that. Turn on the valve and grab some wood and forget all about it. Wife calls me on the phone wanting to know why there"s no hot water. Each time I say I wont ever do that again . Yea right !


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## Yomax4

Yeah, It pumped so much water out that the water softener regenerated 2 days early.. Wonder how much anti corrosion I lost.


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## J.Gordon

I have forgot and left the water on for hours! hers your rep


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## John D

Hehe you guys are too funny! Next time just tell the Mrs. that you are flushing the OWB..... you meant to do that!


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## Windwalker7

Yomax,

I'm not sure if your dealer got you in touch with these guys or not

http://www.woodboilersolutions.com/



I ordered one of their test kits, the one with the little bottles of chemicals (Analysis kit)

It allows you to test to see if there is enough chemicals (Solution 101) in the boiler.


Might want to give them a call.


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## jmruggiero

*wood useage*

this is my first year heating with a shaver 165. started it up last week of sept., as of now i have used about 2 3/4 of wood. i am heating my house and attached garage at 72deg.24/7,about 2500sq.ft. also my hot tub and hot water. i did the blower , and ranco digital temp control and insluated between the door plate.just wondering if my wood useage sounds in line? i feel it is but this is new to me having the fire outside, for over 30years it's been an inside stove. jim


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## wat648

as of now i have used about 2 3/4 of wood?

not sure how much wood you are talking about, but I figure I will burn about 10 cords a year, heating house, water with my 265. I think it is a lot of wood, but it is sure nice having a warm house and all the hot water you can use.


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## scag52

jmruggiero said:


> this is my first year heating with a shaver 165. started it up last week of sept., as of now i have used about 2 3/4 of wood. i am heating my house and attached garage at 72deg.24/7,about 3500sq.ft. also my hot tub and hot water. i did the blower , and ranco digital temp control and insluated between the door plate.just wondering if my wood useage sounds in line? i feel it is but this is new to me having the fire outside, for over 30years it's been an inside stove. jim



I think your about right. That hot tub probably takes a good amount of wood to keep heated.You could install a programable thermostat to lower the temp when your not home or at night. Make sure theres no air getting into the stove when its shut down also.


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## boyland

hottub with cover uses very little heat to keep it at temp IMO and personal experience.


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## jmruggiero

my hot tub holds it's heat pretty well and the water heater from the owb recovers it pretty fast. my runs run 24/7 especially for the hot tub because of the daily cycles it goes through , the delay of hot water would not work well.i use a 1 deg. deff.on my stat.


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## Yomax4

Funny how when I go out to the 250 in the morning and it is quiet and seemingly in the closed down mode but I can hear the fan . Then I poke the coals or move a log and she Rears the Blow Torch Head and Rages like mad. It seems like there should be enough fan to make it rage when ever the fan is on and eat up the coals. I mean, I just barely move coals and the thing goes nuts. I don't undertand why it acts that way. I thought about a few 1" tubes protuding from the ash pan up a few inches above the grate. maybe that would let the air out from below when there is a good bed of coals. I currently have a plate covering the front 1/4 of the grate to keep the Rage in the center of the stove. I may weld a few tubes into the plate to try it. I have no idea what it will do.


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## ngzcaz

You may be on the right track. The ash bed can be too thick and chokes the fire. The only down side I see other than them getting in the way of putting on wood are the tubes getting choked on creosote like the chimney. 

BTW, if anyone is still using the stock t-stat, I noticed a similarity to the one on my oil burner. I normally set my oil burner at 170/150 in the winter, a 20 degree difference. The stat on my OWB is currently set at 150. The actual temp goes to a tad over 170, drops to a tad over 150 then the draft motor kicks on. I have a water temp gauge that is directly in the metal fitting on my pex tubing that goes to the oil burner so I know what the OWB water temp is at any given time. On my 165 this hasn't been a problem because it recovers nicely. A larger unit may have to turn on earlier as noted by some to get up to temp. If one adds 20 degrees to the stock stat it actually is quite accurate. I maintain a check on the aquastat on my oil boiler. My pex is piped directly in the OWB and the temps are w/in a couple of degrees of where they should be. Whether the stock stat is set to turn off or on at a designated setting is something I don't know. ( 150 actually means 170 ) Obviously it shouldn't be a 20 degree difference but in my case it works to the point where I haven't changed it yet.


:monkey:


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## Yomax4

I had tried 3 or 4 of the standard Shaver water heater type temp stats. I didn't like the differential of the 1st 2. I got 2 different styles at 2 different stores and in my findings they all reacted differently. Some let the temp drop 15-20 degrees and then kicked on and some would not let the temp get below what you set it at. Both had larger temp differentials that's why I am so happy with the Ranco and aquastats on all my other loops. The water temp stays pretty much the same all the time..


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## headleyj

yomax4 said:


> Funny how when I go out to the 250 in the morning and it is quiet and seemingly in the closed down mode but I can hear the fan . Then I poke the coals or move a log and she Rears the Blow Torch Head and Rages like mad. It seems like there should be enough fan to make it rage when ever the fan is on and eat up the coals. I mean, I just barely move coals and the thing goes nuts. I don't undertand why it acts that way. I thought about a few 1" tubes protuding from the ash pan up a few inches above the grate. maybe that would let the air out from below when there is a good bed of coals. I currently have a plate covering the front 1/4 of the grate to keep the Rage in the center of the stove. I may weld a few tubes into the plate to try it. I have no idea what it will do.



Yeah - I have the same thing with the coals man. The Shaver likes to burn towards the front of the grate (towards to door) IMO. When the air leaves the blower, it just heads straight for the ash door, hits a straight wall, can't go down, so it goes up. That's my thought process atleast. A more evenly distributed airflow would help the uneven burn I'd think. 

I've thought about this a bit and I picture a single pipe coming directly off the blower, inside the ash "pan", bend up towards the "floor of the fire", Y and then run down each side of the grating. Each "leg" having hoples drilled in it, aiming up at ~ 45° towards the firebox, to distribute the air wiht the ends of each leg capped/ welded shut.

There's a million ways to do it, just the best of the scenarios in my head.


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## John D

My 250 behaves the same exact way.... it just needs a little poking of the wood and to move the coals around a little bit. I like it burning from the front of the stove.I try to keep the fire right behind the door. I think you get more heat transfer to the water jacket that way. I keep the back 2 feet of the stove empty exc for on really cold nights.....


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## ngzcaz

When the wood extends the length of the boiler and lies directly under the chimney, is it any wonder you can see fire coming out of the stack ? This is the first year I'm trying to keep it short and to the side of the chimney. Next year I'll be cutting a little less in length.

:agree2:


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## ngzcaz

On a sort of related note, the blizzard on the East coast ( still 40 mph winds ) made me take a look at the OWB and make a few trips downstairs to see if the water temps were w/in specs due to all the wind. Relieved to say they didn't seem to be any higher than before. I thought the winds may have pulled the damper open and fired the boiler on its own. 

I know a lot of guys changed from the slotted draft factory thingamabob. Anyone have any issues we should know about ?


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## jmruggiero

*blower moter*

does anyone have the granger part no. for the blower motor assy. for the shaver 165.


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## Yomax4

Funny, I just mailed a Christmas Present in the Blower Box. My 1st Shaver, A 165 had so many leaks that the water overflow wrecked 2 Thermostats and a Blower Motor.. I got the number from Shaver and If you send them a note or call them, You should have the information back by July. It is a common stock Item at Grainger. Cross your fingers that someone on here has the part number so you wont have to wait until July to get it from Shaver.


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## Windwalker7

jmruggiero said:


> does anyone have the granger part no. for the blower motor assy. for the shaver 165.



Not Granger........but,



http://www.drillspot.com/go/search/?q=dayton 1tdn7


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## Yomax4

Wow... Same Blower @ grainger is $85.00 or should I say, Thats what they charged me.


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## projectsho89

Windwalker7 said:


> Not Granger........but,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.drillspot.com/go/search/?q=dayton 1tdn7



1TDN7 is the Grainger part number for the blower you listed....


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## Windwalker7

Here is the Grainger if you want to pay more




http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-PSC-Blower-1TDN7


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## projectsho89

Windwalker7 said:


> Here is the Grainger if you want to pay more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-PSC-Blower-1TDN7



If you need it now, it's worth more.


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## jmruggiero

Windwalker7 said:


> Not Granger........but,
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.drillspot.com/go/search/?q=dayton 1tdn7




thanks, this is for spare parts to have on hand when it quits working sometime about 3:30am about 10deg and on a sunday when everyone is closed.

thanks ,jim


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## ngzcaz

Not to jinx anyone, but I don't recall anyone complaining about the Armstrong 30 that I have in my 165 ?

:monkey:


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## John D

Anyone else notice that using a fully closing damper in the cold months increases wood and electric usage? I have the stock blower with the solenoid,and damper door mod...I think this works great in the warmer months with just heating DHW or when heating demands are light.However when the winter temps have the OWB working full time,and cycling often,I notice a real difference in wood consumption and cycling...
The boiler is set on 179 on-183 off....Its never got over 185 since leaving the lower ash door about a full turn from tight....also instead of cycling 3 timed an hr,it maybe cycles once or twice,and smoking is reduced when it turns on.I thing totally putting the fire out is no good in the colder months...think about it,whats more eifficient than a slow burning fire? If you give i a little air it will make some heat,enough to keep the fire hot,if you slam it shujt it smothers it,then wide open just wasted wood by throwing the heat out the chimney..a nice slow burn gets the most out of the wood...in the warmer months I could see the OWB overheating....but for now,Im leaving the lower door cracked,and saving a few logs a day...and some electric duw to unneeded cycling...


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## Yomax4

I was thinking of switching from the dryer flap draft to the full shut off that you describe. I am now re-thinking that. As it is with the dryer flap mod, You do get a small amount of air flow probably like leaving the ash door 1 turn loose. This inexpensive mod has made a world of difference in the operation of my 250. With the ranco and some extra insulation, I have no complaints. I really can not say if wood consumption is better after the mods because I started the season with my new shop in floor heat added to the mix. All in all I am happy with the 250 heating 4500sq ft with a lot of it 20' cielings. I get 12hr burns even in Minnesota.. ( I do throw in a few extra pieces when I am near the stove at mid day sometimes)
I appreciate all of the mod info from everyone on here.


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## urhstry

John D said:


> Anyone else notice that using a fully closing damper in the cold months increases wood and electric usage? I have the stock blower with the solenoid,and damper door mod...I think this works great in the warmer months with just heating DHW or when heating demands are light.However when the winter temps have the OWB working full time,and cycling often,I notice a real difference in wood consumption and cycling...
> The boiler is set on 179 on-183 off....Its never got over 185 since leaving the lower ash door about a full turn from tight....also instead of cycling 3 timed an hr,it maybe cycles once or twice,and smoking is reduced when it turns on.I thing totally putting the fire out is no good in the colder months...think about it,whats more efficient than a slow burning fire? If you give i a little air it will make some heat,enough to keep the fire hot,if you slam it shut it smothers it,then wide open just wasted wood by throwing the heat out the chimney..a nice slow burn gets the most out of the wood...in the warmer months I could see the OWB overheating....but for now, I'm leaving the lower door cracked,and saving a few logs a day...and some electric duw to unneeded cycling...



So would it benefit to drill some small holes in the flapper so that when it IS shut, it will still let some air in to create that small burn? Or am I missing the point? I still have not done this mod yet but I want to.


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## ngzcaz

Well.. there's no way I would trade my damper set up for the old style, but it does seem like that's the way the original set up was supposed to work.. While the unit does lose a bit of heat in the idling mode, the most heat loss occurs when the unit is on full blast and the heat is flying out the chimney. Seems that's where the most gain is possible. For now proper placement of the wood, not overloading it ( at least for me ) an occasional chimney cleaning and keeping the fire towards the front are no cost things that are yielding the best results. There's no question I was choking mine the first 2 years. The butterfly damper mod fixed that nicely.

I saw a NC ad for their gassification unit. While efficient, I see a lot of potential problems down the road and well as really expensive replacement parts when needed. A load of junk wood like I use occasionally would mess those cats up in a hurry. As a sidenote they showed their fire burning while emmiting little smoke but they forgot to open their bypass damper to the chimney and it looked like any other OWB smoking out the front. It would have been more interesting to have seen it when a fresh load of wood was thrown in. Mine doesn't smoke either when its a nice red hot coal bed.


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## scag52

John D said:


> Anyone else notice that using a fully closing damper in the cold months increases wood and electric usage? I have the stock blower with the solenoid,and damper door mod...I think this works great in the warmer months with just heating DHW or when heating demands are light.However when the winter temps have the OWB working full time,and cycling often,I notice a real difference in wood consumption and cycling...
> The boiler is set on 179 on-183 off....Its never got over 185 since leaving the lower ash door about a full turn from tight....also instead of cycling 3 timed an hr,it maybe cycles once or twice,and smoking is reduced when it turns on.I thing totally putting the fire out is no good in the colder months...think about it,whats more eifficient than a slow burning fire? If you give i a little air it will make some heat,enough to keep the fire hot,if you slam it shujt it smothers it,then wide open just wasted wood by throwing the heat out the chimney..a nice slow burn gets the most out of the wood...in the warmer months I could see the OWB overheating....but for now,Im leaving the lower door cracked,and saving a few logs a day...and some electric duw to unneeded cycling...


 I have had the best results with closing off all the air i can and cycling more often (2*diff.) Lowering the boiler temp as low as it can go . (on 146 -off 148) .I know it cycles more but temp stays very close to set point. I see less smoke due to active fire and less creosote build up. I would never go back to the slide damper . I'm going 24 hours burning pine. Last year i had lots of air leaks ,doors ,blower and and damper door. Everytime i would open up the door i would see the coals glowing and sometimes some flame, wasting wood.


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## scag52

urhstry said:


> So would it benefit to drill some small holes in the flapper so that when it IS shut, it will still let some air in to create that small burn? Or am I missing the point? I still have not done this mod yet but I want to.


 
I would recommend not drilling any holes. Do the solenoid mod as soon as you can . The Ranco thermostat too.


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## jmruggiero

even with the flap shut tightely closed you are still sucking air in through the motor end, so you'll always have some air getting to the fire.

has anyone had a fire go completely out do to the lack of air, just wondering.


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## scag52

Only in the summer . Sits for a day or better without firing. Sometimes it would be out. Thats burning pine . I just keep a auto lighting propane torch nearby to give it 30 seconds of flame and shut the door. 

My blower has the vents around the motor. i wasn't sure if air can make its way through there or not . I covered them with electrical tape anyway.


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## John D

I am only running a 3 degree differential... im my case there is no doubt that letting a little air in saves wood, reduces smoke, and cuts my blower cycling in half at the minimum.im just putting it out there so others can try to save wood and electricity. I sealed my boiler up good.. there were huge air gaps between the blower and the mount. I ground down the globs of weld and put a bead of silicone sealer. I. Fixed the door leaks and the ash door leaks as well. My fire has gone out in the warmer months a few times, but that is normal. I only burn hardwoods all year long. I wish there was some pine around here I would throw a stick in with every load I love the smell of it.


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## scag52

Without a doubt everyone has to try things for themselves and see what works.I'm running 2* diff. and shutting off all the air has been the best for me. I"m going to try to longer diff and see what that does now that its getting colder.


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## Holdstihl

I don't understand how leaving a door cracked and allowing forced air to bypass the fire is an improvement. More air = hotter fire. Hotter fire = faster heat transfer.


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## J.Gordon

scag52 said:


> Only in the summer . Sits for a day or better without firing. Sometimes it would be out. Thats burning pine . I just keep a auto lighting propane torch nearby to give it 30 seconds of flame and shut the door.
> 
> My blower has the vents around the motor. i wasn't sure if air can make its way through there or not . I covered them with electrical tape anyway.


 
I would take the tape off the motor. Those vents on the motor are for cooling and when covered, motor life would be shortened.


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## scag52

You know I thought the same thing.I just had to seal up the air leaks so I went ahead a covered them too. The very end of the motor has some. I left them open. I'll take the tape off. Not sure any air can get by anyway. My spare blower doesn't have them.


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## J.Gordon

Some motors are sealed for certain applications. explosive, moisture, dusty etc.
But they have been designed to operate that way. 

That little motor may last a long time with the tape on it though.

If I needed to seal the motor off, I would want a spare just in case it dies. 
Seems they always die on the coldest day of the year.

The good thing about those little motors is they are inexpensive.


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## david78

I had a problem with the Ranco on my Shaver 165 this morning. Woke up to cool house and less than hot water in the shower. Checked pumps, blower, etc, and figured out that the Ranco was showing water temp. in the furnace was 178 when it was actually just lukewarm. When I set the temp up to 200 it kicked the blower on. So I'm not getting an accurate temp reading to the Ranco. Anyone ever have a similar problem? Any ideas for a solution? Thanks.


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## scag52

Where do you have the probe ? Set to f right ?


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## david78

It's in a well through the top of the water jacket. Set to F. This is the third winter with it and has always worked great.


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## wctech

*Water temp loss of 30 degrees*

I have been heating an old farm house (no insulation) with a 240 gallon Acme(shaver clone) OWB. I have cast iron radiators on the first floor and second floor, pressurized system with HX. I also am heating a shop about 150 feet away. I have 1 inch insulated pex underground. 1 pump to the house, 007, and one 007 pump sending water 150 feet one way, to the 3 radiators in the shop. I bought into the 1 inch theory, as being big enough to make the trip to and from the shop. I only need the temp high enough to keep the water from freezing in the shop. The boiler keeps up fine until the shop calls for heat. Then I get a 30 to 40 degree loss in them at the boiler. The boiler never gets a chance to fully recoup. Then the shop calls for heat again. For some reason my mind keeps thinking that the slower the water comes back to the boiler, the easier it will be to get heated back up to temp. That’s why I only have one pump doing the work. Would another pump on the return at the shop help cure this problem? Or are there any ideas that can help eleviate the huge heat loss in the water? If the shop does not call for heat I can keep up just fine in the house, but when heating both, I am having huge problems, besides blowing through the wood.


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## projectsho89

david78 said:


> It's in a well through the top of the water jacket. Set to F. This is the third winter with it and has always worked great.


 
Sounds like it's time for a new sensor.

The Ranco instructions includes a resistance/temperature chart. You might wan to grab the ohmmeter and double check it first.


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## projectsho89

wctech said:


> I have been heating an old farm house (no insulation) with a 240 gallon Acme(shaver clone) OWB. I have cast iron radiators on the first floor and second floor, pressurized system with HX. I also am heating a shop about 150 feet away. I have 1 inch insulated pex underground. 1 pump to the house, 007, and one 007 pump sending water 150 feet one way, to the 3 radiators in the shop. I bought into the 1 inch theory, as being big enough to make the trip to and from the shop. I only need the temp high enough to keep the water from freezing in the shop. The boiler keeps up fine until the shop calls for heat. Then I get a 30 to 40 degree loss in them at the boiler. The boiler never gets a chance to fully recoup. Then the shop calls for heat again. For some reason my mind keeps thinking that the slower the water comes back to the boiler, the easier it will be to get heated back up to temp. That’s why I only have one pump doing the work. Would another pump on the return at the shop help cure this problem? Or are there any ideas that can help eleviate the huge heat loss in the water? If the shop does not call for heat I can keep up just fine in the house, but when heating both, I am having huge problems, besides blowing through the wood.


 
Are the two zones (house, shop) in series or in parallel. Your description isn't clear to me.


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## wctech

The shop has 3 radiators run in series. The last radiator is hooked to the return line. The shop is lower than the boiler so they are not hooked to a pressure system. The water is pumped straight from the boiler to the radiators. I have an indoor thermometer and when the shop kicks on I can watch the temp drop like a stone. It takes alot of time for the boiler to recoup to 175, and when it's real cold and windy it never makes it back to temp before the shop calls for heat again. When this happens the water gradually keeps getting colder and colder. According to everything I have read the square footage is well below what is needed for my size boiler. The house keeps up no problem, even on windy cold days without the shop. I'm perplexed.


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## david78

What kind of insulation is on the line running to the shop? Any chance there's groundwater getting in around the pipe? My guess is you're losing heat to the ground. I have a similar setup in my garage; three radiators, 150' from the OWB. I don't have as big a temp loss as you do, but it's significant. I can tell from the snow melt over the line that I didn't get it insulated well enough. It really pains me to think about it but I'm probably going to have to dig it up and do it over.


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## wctech

The pipe is insulated and placed into 4 inch drain pipe. It is 4 feet in most places, but it rises a bit by the boiler. I have had 12 inches of snow over it and not seen any type of melting. I can put a strap on thermometer on the supply side in the shop and see what the temp is coming in. Most suggest another pump on the last radiator return line. My thought are that that will just make the water colder faster, but I might be wrong. If I leave the door open on the boiler the water temp catches up in about an hour. I also though about putting a larger blower on the boiler, but not sure if that would accomplish anything except burning more wood. I am starting to think the radiators were not such a good idea for the shop. I wonder if a hx in a modine might be a better choice. Then the water should not cool down as fast. Just a thought.


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## jmruggiero

is melting a little snow that big of a problem? what is the acceptable heat loss. i would think if they were buried 4ft.down there should be no noticeable snow melt, but bury the same line 2ft. down you probably will see snow melt. i melt some snow when it warms up, my lines are buried 2 ft.down and my water temp varies 1-2deg. in 145ft. 

what is an acceptable deg. loss in the typical run


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## wctech

I think the example was intended to let you know you are having heat loss on the way to the intended source. My run is 150 feet and I dont see a large heat loss until the water hits the cast iron radiators, then returns to the boiler. Sometime it is as much as 40 degrees. I checked the water returning after leaving the radiators on for about 30 minutes and it was around 140. That was with a strap on thermometer. I guess what puzzles me is why it is taking so long for the boiler to get back up to temp. The wood is dry, and the blower seems strong. I figure I am sending about 5 of 10 gallons of cold water back to the boiler ( 3 radaiators worth) when the shop first calls for heat. When I fill the boiler with cold water once a week I do not see the same drop, and it should be about the same amount going in.


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## scag52

wctech said:


> The pipe is insulated and placed into 4 inch drain pipe. It is 4 feet in most places, but it rises a bit by the boiler. I have had 12 inches of snow over it and not seen any type of melting. I can put a strap on thermometer on the supply side in the shop and see what the temp is coming in. Most suggest another pump on the last radiator return line. My thought are that that will just make the water colder faster, but I might be wrong. If I leave the door open on the boiler the water temp catches up in about an hour. I also though about putting a larger blower on the boiler, but not sure if that would accomplish anything except burning more wood. I am starting to think the radiators were not such a good idea for the shop. I wonder if a hx in a modine might be a better choice. Then the water should not cool down as fast. Just a thought.


 
I think i remember your post from awile ago. Did you ever try a 0011 pump ? That 007 is small for that run. I use a a hanging HX in my shop with very good results. Only run the temp at 148*. Do you have a solenoid for the blower and a ranco thermostat ?


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## wctech

I never tried the 011, but would the extra 007 on the return line acomplish the same thing? I just cant seem to get a grip on this problem. In my mind I think it would just make the water colder faster, but I sure could be wrong. Does using a HX make the return water drop less than what the radiators do? It sure seems to in my house. It might be that the metal on radiators are so cold it takes all the heat to get them up and running correctly, then when they become hot it is time for them to shut down starting the same vicious cycle over again. Thanks for the help.


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## scag52

Well i dont have any experience with radiators but it seems they require a lot higher temps to do the same job. At least thats what I've seen. If i read it right you have three rads ?

As for the pumps you should at least try adding a bigger pump or a second one to eliminate that possibility.


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## wctech

I have 3 radiators run in series. The last one has the return line hooked to it. I also have radiators in the house, but they work fine, as long as the water temp does not get below 160. The house is 137 years old and not insulated. On the days with extreme winds, and below zero temps, I suplement with a pellet stove. On days of 0 degrees with little wind they keep up just fine, until the shop kicks in. I think I am going to go with the HX. Any type or brand that you would recomend? The shop is about 1000 SQ. It might be the easiest fix to my problem.


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## scag52

158k BTU Unit Heater Outdoor Furnace Boiler , MODINE - eBay (item 190290501818 end time Jan-20-11 17:13:36 PST)

Heres the one i bought . I use it to heat a 32x48 12'ceilings w/ semi insulation.Works well. Its 135,000 btu's @ 180* water. He has other sizes too. They're a lot of money but made very nice. I originally used a line voltage dial therm .to control the fan but found it to be inacurate .I now use a ranco and its perfect. 

As for the wind , i remember something about a silo. Is that right. I found problems on windy days too. getting the stove out of it was the fix for me.


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## scag52

Here's a picture


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## david78

When I first put my system in I had a larger Grundfos pump on the run to the radiators in the garage and the small Armstrong 30 that came with the furnace running the HX in the house. I thought, longer run, bigger pump. I wasn't getting enough heat in the house so I contacted Shaver and they said the bigger pump needed to go to the HX even if it was a shorter run because there's more resistance to flow in the HX. The old radiators offer very little resistance to flow (unless they're plugged with junk) and don't need much of a pump. I switched pumps and it made a big difference in the house. I'm running a Taco 007 on the garage run now and it does fine (150' one way, 3 radiators, 24'x24' space) But if I turn the thermostat up in the garage, I burn a *lot* more wood, so I keep it around 45 unless I'm working in there. Just based on my limited experience, I don't think a larger pump would solve your problem.


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## wctech

Yes that looks that it should work. I did have a problem with creosote when I added any length to the chimney. Now I just let it go up a 10 foot peice 12 inch single wall and out the top of the corn crib. I take the piece of single wall down once a week and beat the creosote out of it and have had no problems since. I will try to keep the shop at 45 and see what happens, but Dave is right when you keep it any hotter you blow through the wood. I can only get 8 hr burns at best when its real cold. I think the HX might be the cure. Thanks for all the help, I will let you guys know how it comes out.


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## jmruggiero

do your pumps run 24/7? is your blower getting enough air for a quicker recovery rate? how much lift do you have.


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## wctech

The pump to the HX in the house runs 24/7 the pump too the shop only kicks in when heat is called for. I did a quick check on my fan, and found that some fiberglass insulation got sucked up into the vanes, clogging them up a bit. I have a spare blower so I replaced it, until I can clean the old one out. That should make a big difference. I could not see the vanes until the fan went off, then I lifted the flap on my modificated blower, exposing the clogged vanes. We will see how it goes today. When I leave the stove door open I can gain 1 degree per 45 seconds, lets see how close I come to that with the new blower.


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## wctech

The blower was the problem, clogged vanes. I still get a large loss when the radiators call for heat, but the recovery time is about 15 minutes instead of 90. Thanks to all for the help.


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## Yomax4

*Ranco*

Weird. I had a Ranco failure. It just went Blank and that was it. I had a spare all wired and ready to go. I did the simple install and the simple program to get it where I needed it. I set the Temp at 165 F. Differential at 5, H1. Done. Soon my 250 was boiling and steaming. I looked at the Ranco and it said 165 degrees. I took my infered thermometer and tested several spots and it read 210-214. The fan was still running so I kept clicking it down to see where the fan would shut off and I got all the way down to 100 on the readout and the fan shut off. I let it cool down and left everything until it fired back up at that 100 degree setting. the fan kicked on and I checked with the infered at it said 169 degrees. I guess my Ranco is off by 69 degrees. Yes it is on F not C. Everything has been working great all day but the readout is incorrect. Can anyone think of something I may have done wrong.??


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## Holdstihl

yomax4 said:


> Weird. I had a Ranco failure. It just went Blank and that was it. I had a spare all wired and ready to go. I did the simple install and the simple program to get it where I needed it. I set the Temp at 165 F. Differential at 5, H1. Done. Soon my 250 was boiling and steaming. I looked at the Ranco and it said 165 degrees. I took my infered thermometer and tested several spots and it read 210-214. The fan was still running so I kept clicking it down to see where the fan would shut off and I got all the way down to 100 on the readout and the fan shut off. I let it cool down and left everything until it fired back up at that 100 degree setting. the fan kicked on and I checked with the infered at it said 169 degrees. I guess my Ranco is off by 69 degrees. Yes it is on F not C. Everything has been working great all day but the readout is incorrect. Can anyone think of something I may have done wrong.??


 
Did you replace the probe? Are you sure the probe is below the water level? If so, sounds like the calibration is off


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## Yomax4

I have a 1" T installed in the Pex below my main pump. The horizontal part of the T goes 4" and then up 4". That is where I have my well. I inserted a piece of copper tube into the pex and put the probe in there and siliconed it shut. When I changed the Ranco, I replaced everything. I may have to call and see if there is a calibration method. Maybe I just got a goofy unit. I did buy it off E-Bay.

Thanks.


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## projectsho89

It is not possible to calibrate a Ranco. You can, however, test the sensor with an ohmmeter. Replacement sensors are available.


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## scag52

I bought lots of rancos  from eBay . All have been fine. Are you sure the well you have is not causing a problem .


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## Yomax4

This is a new way for the well but I was sure that with the pump forcing water down, The 4" horizontal would have pretty accurate water temp. With my other Ranco I simply taped the probe to the pex and it was very close to what my infered said. Maybe I will pull it out and tape it and see what I get. 

Thanks.


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## urhstry

I will add this.... I just happened to check my well with my Ranco probe inside and it is melted to the copper well. I tried pulling it out and it won't budge... but since it seems to be accurate, I am going to leave it go til Spring. Maybe yours, and others, are faulty that way.


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## Yomax4

Wow, Was your well touching the fire box? Odd that OWB water temps would melt that probe.


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## jmruggiero

*door insulation*

has anyone that has insulated between the door and inner plate develop any problems arising from adding it. just wondering.


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## ngzcaz

When I was choking the stove 2 years ago with less than ideal wood, the moisture/creosote ran off the door when I opened it. That disappeared when I did damper mod. The original fiberglass is still in the door. A lot of guys insulated the door, don't recall anything but fiberglass actually used although other materials were discussed.


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## Yomax4

I pushed in regular fiberglass insulation between the door plates as per some previous posts. It does keep the door cooler and probably pushes some heat back into the stove but I am unsure how to measure the good that it did. It is nearly free to do it and it does make a difference judging by the door temp so why not do it. 
Just for he record, I too choked my stove last year and had creosote water running all over. Out the door, Out the stack all over the stove and and killed the grass. None of that green wood this year for me and no creosote either. My stove pipe has been clean all winter even with a 4' extension.


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## headleyj

jmruggiero said:


> has anyone that has insulated between the door and inner plate develop any problems arising from adding it. just wondering.


 
I used rockwool insulation - has a higher temp rating, figured it couldn't hurt.


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## jmruggiero

i just recieved e-mail from ben shaver about this, and his reply was , they are doing this on there new units.


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## ngzcaz

1. How did you get the rockwool to stay in place.
2. Did Shaver say what they were using ?

Thanks,

:monkey:


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## jmruggiero

in Ben's reply to me was that they were doing this to there new units shipped. he did not state what type they were using.

in my door i just packed ( i think it is rock wool ) in the space , no problems falling out.

i would think regular pink might work. jim


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## headleyj

ngzcaz said:


> 1. How did you get the rockwool to stay in place.
> 2. Did Shaver say what they were using ?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> :monkey:


 
It's stayed just fine man


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## Cedar-Acres

*Hello! New member*

Hi all,

I am a happy owner of a Shaver 165 that I received and installed almost 13 months ago. Just found this site 2 days ago and have been reading through all the posts. This is a great thread and has validated everything I have done and am planning on doing with my furnace. I have even picked up a couple ideas that will solve issues I have been wanting to deal with.

To begin with, I don't see why there is so much anger at WeldRite now that they have improved things. Granted, there is more they can do to improve, but as the saying goes "You get what you pay for". I, like many others here, like to tinker and would rather save the money and do some of the work myself. During the time I was trying to decide exactly what I wanted to order I had the opportunity to talk directly with Billy Shaver to get some of my questions answered. I ordered the furnace on 12/1/2009 and took delivery at my home on 12/26/2009 as promised. I think a 25 day turnaround is great to have something like this built and delivered, especially over the Christmas holiday. Ben has been great to deal with and I have been able to reach him by phone more than half the time I have called and he quickly responds to my emails everytime. So, I tend to communicate with him via email. In mid December 2010 my blower bearings started going out and were very noisy. I emailed Ben and had a warranty replacement in my hands in less than 48 hours. I don't see how service could get any better than that.

Over the past year I have been doing mods to the furnace and have it running very well now. To date these are the mods I have done:

* Installed a digital temperature controller - Autonics TC3YT about $70 plus the platinum RTD sensor - this is industrial grade and will last a long time. Placed the sensor in the original location, put a piece of 1/4 inch thick blue foam and a fender washer between the sensor and hold down bolt and then insulated the crap out of it - it is stable and working fine. I have the temp setpoint at 160 degrees +-1 degree. I find setting it that tight makes the blower cycle fairly often and for a shorter time causing the fire to burn at a very steady rate and it recovers very quickly when there is a sudden demand caused by a change in the house thermostat or hot water usage.

* Installed a Maverick Model #ET-71OS wireless BBQ grill thermometer on the side of the furnace facing the house with the sensor installed in the same place as the controller sensor. They report the temp the same or within 1 degree of each other. I installed the outside unit in a clear plastic weather proof outlet box. I can monitor the furnace temp on the side of the furnace and from anywhere in the house.

* Installed a plastic dryer flap on the blower - Made a 1/4 inch thick blue foam collar that I hot glued to the blower. The collar is deep enough to prevent the flap from touching the blower and the dryer flap assembly fits snuggly into it and can be removed to adjust the weight of the counter balance. I drilled a 1/4 inch hole in the flap about 1 inch up from the bottom and installed a 2 inch nylon bolt. I put 2 steel nuts on the end of the nut to act as a counter weight to firmly close the flap. I found that on windy days the wind blowing across the top of the chimney would create enough draft to pull the flap open a bit and would almost double my wood usage. To fix this I installed a third steel nut on the flap counter weight.

* Installed a 1/2 inch PVC cap with a 1/8 inch hole drilled in the center of it on the vent pipe. The cap is fairly loose and any pressure build up will blow it off. This has solved the excessive water loss problem.

* Installed a 1/4 x 6 inch eye-bolt to hold the door shut. Drilled a 1/4 inch hole through the furnace frame and into the door frame and inserted the eye-bolt.

* Installed unfaced fiberglass insulation into the air gap of the loading door.

* Installed a 3 way switch in a weather proof housing on the side of the furnace. It switches power between the draft blower and a light mounted on the side of the nearby shed pointed at the front of the furnace.

* Installed homemade solar heat collecting panels and connected them to the second set of ports on the furnace. This has noticably reduced wood usage on bright sunny days and allows me to have free DHW durning the summer without burning wood. I plumbed the DHW cold inlet to run through the HX coil before going into the DHW tank. I also installed a tempering valve on the outlet of the DHW supply. I used the pump that came with the furnace, that was intended for the DHW system as defined in the manual, for pumping the furnace water through the solar panels. I have the power to the DHW heater turned off and the furnace HX coil is doing quite good at heating the water up to 130 degrees or more. The tempering valve is set to 120 degrees.

For regular maintenance I use an inexpensive garden rake and shovel set. They have steel heads and extendable aluminum handles that extend to 48 inches. The rake is excellent for raking the ashes/coals and the shovel is the perfect size for removing the ashes from the ash bin.

I had been using 6 inch black stovepipe for the chimney extension but since it is cold it builds up creasote quickly requiring removal and cleaning every 2 to 4 weeks. If not kept clean it will shed crap that gets stuck at the 5 to 6 inch adapter that is required to make it fit the stock chimney and chokes up the furnace. I read about using the 6 inch insulated chimney and sliding it down over the stock chimney in this thread and think that is a great idea! I am going to pick up some this evening and install it this weekend. I had also been thinking about improving the overall insulation and this thread has shown me how to do it, so I will be doing that soon as well beginning with 2" blue foam on the bottom and then fiberglass bat on the sides and top.

Thanks all for the wonderful ideas and information!!!


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## ngzcaz

Welcome new member.. you certainly found the right spot for pro and negative reviews on this OWB. You placed your order at the right time for prompt delivery. Many weren't as fortunate. Your mods are interesting. I, for one, would like to know how your thermostat is working as far as when it comes on and off. Whats the temp swing ? The stat is reading the temp through 1/4 in or so of steel so even if the stat is set for 1 degree plus or minus I would really be surprised if it actually worked that way. The stock stat is set for an 8 degree swing ( I spoke with the factory to conform this ) but because of the mounting on steel no one is getting that . Mine is around 20 degrees which is OK because I have a small heating area and recovery is pretty quick. One way you can get an accurate water temp for less than $ 10.00 is to get a temp water probe that screws right in the the T fitting located just after the pump and right where it attaches to the pex. This is an actual water temp because the probe is in the water. Its approx a 1 inch gauge showing the temp. The whole thing is only about 3 inches give or take. I then remarked the stock stat to reflect the actual water temp. The settings on the stock stat were off by around 12 to 15 degrees. 

Could you elaborate a bit on the 1/2 plastic cap ? You pushed on the cap and drilled a hole on top for venting if I understand it ? You may want to consider some pex curved upward a bit. Much better than removing the plate by the chimney when adding chemicals. ( unless the factory made an improvement I'm not aware of )

Lastly, most members are satisfied w/ the functioning of the units. They work fine with a bit of tweeking. Just some items a lot of guys felt should been done at the factory weren't and as a former welder the appearence of the welds made it look like it came from China. I would be pleased if Shaver corrected some of these concerns for future purchasers.

:smile-big:


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## Cedar-Acres

Thanks for the welcome, ngzcaz.

The "water use reduction" fix I did is a simple 1/2 inch PVC cap. I sanded the exterior of the vent line nice and smooth with 220 grit sandpaper so the cap would slide on and off easily. I drilled a 1/8 inch hole in the center on the cap to allow the tank to breathe with atmospheric pressure changes and water volume changes that occur with changes in water temperature. The cap slips on with very little force and will come off if the water were to boil and build pressure. Each week when I do the ash cleaning I pull the cap off (to be sure it isn't getting stuck from sitting in one place too long) and top off the water. Then I slip the cap back on. Since I started using the cap I only have the fill water on for a second or two, before I had to let it run for 15 to 20 seconds to top off the tank.

I'm not really hung up on the exact temp of the water as long as the controller is keeping it in a reasonably tight range and I am getting hot air and hot water in the house. To check the actual water temperature I insert a long probe on a digital thermometer into the vent tube far enough that it is in the water inside the tank. I normally see a water temp that is within 3 degrees or so of the temp shown on the controller and wireless remote thermometer. The reason for this is that I insulated the crap out of the place I installed those probes. First, the probes have thermal conductive grease on them, then 1/4 inch blue foam insulation over them, then fiberglass filling the factory hole for the temp controller, then 1/4 inch blue foam over that and extends about 2 inches beyond the hole all around to hold in the fiberglass , then 3 inches of fiberglass bat over all that. With the digital controller set to come on at 159 and off at 161 degrees F the draft fan cycles for a short time often. I'm sure there is some lag in the system due to the 1/4 inch of steel between the water and the probes, but if you hold the temperature fairly constant for a period of time the, I'm guessing 10 minutes or so, the extra insulation will allow the heat to soak through the steel and the temperatures to equalize. Once equalized the response to small changes in temperature is good enough to control the system. This results in a very steady burn as long as there is a constant load from the house. My wife thought I was nuts, _maybe I am_, when I sat and watched the furnace run one night for almost an hour and a half. It was much more relaxing than watching the tv.... Anyway, the outside temperature was about 18 degrees that night and the house thermostat was kicking on for about a minute and off for about 8 minutes in a steady cycle. The furnace draft blower was kicking on for about 4 or 5 minutes once about every 3 house cycles. The temp of the furnace was cycling from 159 to 161 and never strayed from that. I use a set back thermostat in the house. The normal temp is 72 degrees and it sets back to 65 degrees during the day while we are at work and school. I have it step up to 72 about a half hour before we get home and it never fails to be there when we walk in. I have a digital thermometer in the house that records the high and low temps and it does get down to 65 during the day when the outside temps are in the low teens or less. The furnace is usually at around 145 to 150 and recovers within a half hour after we get home, even with the hot water useage that occurs during that time - not bad for a sudden 7 degree jump in the house temperature. Another example is when my son takes a much too long shower. The furnace temp will drop to around 153 degrees or so and then recover. When he finishes the shower it will overshoot to no more then 164 and then settle back down.

I feel I finally have the temperature control of the furnace working the way I think it should and it is very solid in it's response as long as there is wood in it and I keep the grate and chimney clean. Now I want to work on the chimney creasote problem by installing the insulated chimney and then insulating the entire water tank much better than it is to reduce my wood useage and extend my run times. There is a single thin sheet of (probably wet) fiberglass insulation that came with the unit to place under the water tank. Even with that I noted that all the 1 inch of snow we had Monday was melted out to about 4 to 6 inches from the furnace with an outside temp of about 20 degrees.

As it is I only fully load the front half of the firebox over the grate, that is the firebox is only half full of wood, once a day in the evening with the average daytime temps in the 30 to 40 degree range. Below that I throw in 4 to 8 splits in the morning depending on the predicted high for the day and how much sunshine we are supposed to get to make sure it stays hot. Above that range I only about half fill the front of the firebox once a day, that is the firebox is only 1/4 full. How much wood is left and how much I have to add depends on whether the day was very sunny or not. When it is sunny the solar panels tend to keep the temp up and the blower off all day long so there is lots of wood left at the end of the day.

I hope that adequately answered your questions!


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## scag52

Hello, Another welcome. Any chance we could get some pics. Would love to see the homemade solar panels. Very interested. Thanks, Russ


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## Cedar-Acres

scag52, here is a picture of my current set up as of early October 2010. There are 2 4x8 panels installed at this time. I will be adding another panel this spring to get the system to where I want it. When there is not a fire active in the furnace I install a box made of 1 inch styrofoam over the doors to stop the massive heat loss that occurs there. The box is held on with super strong rare earth magnets. Using that box reduced the night time BTU loss by almost 50%. I'm sure that when I strip down the unit this summer and add a bunch of insulation I will see much better heat retention.

This past weekend I installed a 6" double wall insulated chimney stack. As I was cutting the chimney hole in the roofing tin larger I discovered that this model furnace was built with the center roof support right up against the factory chimney! Was I ever upset!!! Now my quick 30 to 45 minute job had turned into a 3 hour ordeal!!! I ended up having to fully remove the roofing tin and attach a come-along to pull the center support toward the front by about 1-1/4 inches to get the new chimney to slide past it and all the way down to the water tank. Then I released the support. It is tight up against the chimney and is effectively clamping that section in place so it won't move. It turned out that a 3 foot section came to almost 2 inches above the factory pipe, just right to allow me to caulk the gap between the two and still have room for the flange on the next section. I added 2 more 3 foot sections and a rain cap to get it well above the shed roofline.

I also reworked the vent line. I removed the cap with the 1/8 inch hole and installed a 90 degree elbow and a 2 inch straight piece. This is rotated toward the front at about 45 degrees so that the opening is about 1/2 inch above the vent line. In this position I can see the water level in it. Now I don't have to worry that the cap might get stuck and cause an over pressure problem.


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## John D

Cedar-Acres said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> To begin with, I don't see why there is so much anger at WeldRite now that they have improved things. Granted, there is more they can do to improve, but as the saying goes "You get what you pay for". I, like many others here, like to tinker and would rather save the money and do some of the work myself. During the time I was trying to decide exactly what I wanted to order I had the opportunity to talk directly with Billy Shaver to get some of my questions answered. I ordered the furnace on 12/1/2009 and took delivery at my home on 12/26/2009 as promised. I think a 25 day turnaround is great to have something like this built and delivered, especially over the Christmas holiday. Ben has been great to deal with and I have been able to reach him by phone more than half the time I have called and he quickly responds to my emails everytime. So, I tend to communicate with him via email. In mid December 2010 my blower bearings started going out and were very noisy. I emailed Ben and had a warranty replacement in my hands in less than 48 hours. I don't see how service could get any better than that.
> 
> Welcome to AS! To know why so many are mad at Weld Rite,you would need to read all the shaver threads and then I think you might have a better understanding.Bottom line for me is Im happy you received fast friendly service,I however did not.My family trusted me and my judgement,and we ordered 7 Shaver boilers in June of 2008....delivery was promised in mid august,giving us all time to get out pads set and lines run...After several threats and 4 broken delivery dates,and outright lies from the owner,We received our boilers on december 12th 2008.The first story in september after being a month overdue was the boilers were there,but the delivery company was down a truck so it would take an extra month,them not knowing we have a freight company in the family,and we offered to send an 18 wheeler to get the units the next day....then they backpeddled and changed there tune,now they werent ready,they were waiting on a part for them.A month later,nothing,then another delay...They were delivered in a blinding snow storm,so all of them were covered in road salt,and rusted before we even set them in place...I was forced to hook up the unit in the snow,and it was just a mess....this is the tip of the iceberg,there are also several different images that were put on the internet showing Shaver boilers with full insulation,but when the unit arrived nothing under them,then others showing a full 36" firebox,with an ash tray under it,but when they arrived the ash tray was in the 36" firebox,and the 36" firebox was only 26" tall...theres more,this is all I can think of off hand.........hope this helps clear things up.
> I for one am jealous that your able to run the Shaver at 159-161 degrees! That is great for saving wood..I have mine at 181-184 now in the winter...so mines eating wood,but i need those temps.....Im interested in your panels,they are nice....if you can share how you built them,and how you tied them in...how do you deal with nightime and freezing..do they drain back?


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## Cedar-Acres

Funny, I authored a detailed reply to John D two days ago and it hasn't shown up yet. Did the reply fail being submitted for some reason, or does it sometimes take several days for it to be posted?


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## Cedar-Acres

John D, This is the website I found with the plans for making the solar panels:

The $1000 Solar Water Heating System

I opted to build the copper tube with aluminum fin version since I am using it with the OWB and figured it likely would see some fairly high temperatures at times. This is where I ordered the preformed aluminum fins:

Aluminum Solar Absorbers - U.P. Solar Solutions

The panels are set up in a drain back configuration. I installed a vacuum breaker valve on the return line. It is located in a vertical run off a T in the return line in the OWB cabinet. The valve is about 1 foot above the tank water level. The temperature in the OWB cabinet stays way above freezing at all times so there is no issue of the valve freezing up and causing a problem. I also installed a custom made open cell foam filter on the valve to prevent bugs and dirt from getting in it and preventing a good seal.

Since the panels are on a slope and are different distances from the pump I made an orifice plate to install on the outlet of each panel to independently control and balance the flow through each one. The orifice should allow approximately 3 gal/min to flow through each panel.

The differential controller I chose is the Steca TR 0301 U. It controls the pump (the one that came with the furnace and was intended for use with the DHW system) and circulates the tank water through the solar panels.

I plumbed the HX in the OWB as a preheat of the cold water line going into the DHW tank. This required the addition of a tempering valve on the outlet of the DHW since it is likely that the hot water coming from the HX will exceed 140 degrees at times. The tempering valve is set at 120 degrees output temperature. This configuration also allows me to take advantage of at least a little heat input in the summer when it has been cloudy for several days and the OWB tank is not hot enough to carry the full DHW load. While burning wood and holding the tank temperatue at 160 degrees I am seeing the cold water going to the HX at 57 degrees and the return water from the HX at 132 degrees while the shower is in use. These temps are measured with an IR thermometer on the body of the brass isolation valves at the DHW. The hot water temp is 121 degrees as measured with a digital thermometer at the kitchen sink. With this configuration I have the DHW electric heaters turned off while buring wood and never run out of hot water. During the summer the electric heaters are turned on and are set at 115 to make up for when the demand exceeds the available solar input.

Just today around noon I was out cleaning the ashes out of the OWB and the clouds cleared. I took a look at the solar panel temperature. The outside temp was 22 degrees at the time and there is snow on the ground. The snow had melted off the panels a couple days ago when the sun was out. Within 10 minutes of the sun coming out the panels were up to 168 degrees and the pump kicked on. The lower tank temperature was 152 degrees and the diff controller comes on when the panel is 16 degrees warmer than the lower tank temp. I turned the pump off and let it drain back to see how warm the panels would get. In about five minutes it had climbed to 180 degrees and was still climbing when I had to move on to other tasks and turned the pump back on.

When I get started on building the third panel in the spring I will try to get a build thread going so others can see how it is done.


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## John D

Thank you! I like your setup.I will look into the panels,Im interested especially for summer use to avoid using heating oil,and keep the outdoor wod boiler off until october.I just looked at the system,and the only issue I have is I do not have room for a storage tank....so im not sure I could build this setup,as its essential for it to perform properly.


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## Cedar-Acres

The neat thing about this setup is that the OWB is the heat storage tank. There is no need to build a separate tank. With the HX set up as the preheat for the cold water supply to the DHW there is no difference in how the hot water system works with wood heat or with solar. Just keep in mind that the Shaver will need much better insulation than it comes with from the factory to make it efficient with the solar panels. You can also do as I did and build extra panels to make up for some of the lack of insulation in the OWB. I also add 1 inch styrofoam panels in both door openings and the chimney when there is no fire burning as well as the 1 inch foam box that covers the doors and seals to the front of the OWB.


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## bluscout

*Corrosion Control*

I'm using the "Made for NASA" stuff that Shaver sells for water treatment. They now want over $300.00 for five gallons. I didn't pay nearly that much for mine but I will need to add to it some day. Anyone know what it is and/or a less expensive source for it?
Also, has anyone installed anodes in your Shaver? Any thoughts on the subject?


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## ngzcaz

First two years I used the Shaver recommended product, this year I bought the $ 30 gallon of additive sold by a CB dealer. Had to buy a separate test kit for about $ 10 bucks but it does several tests. Anodes seem like such a no brainer of an idea I can't believe I haven't seen posts about it. Take the stupid cover off the back where the copper coil is supposed to be located, drill a couple of holes, make something so they don't drop all the way down etc.. That should take care of the acid, you just need something for the nitrates and that should do it. From what I recall there was little discussion on this topic.


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## jmruggiero

*spare parts*

just curious, what, if any spare parts do you keep on hand for that time when something fails. for me i depend on my shaver a good bit, so stocking a spare pump,blower,and a spare ranco theromostat gives me some piece of mind. in my area none of this is stocked in stores so it will have to be ordered an takes several days,an i don't like running the electric furnace.


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## Cedar-Acres

I am in my second year with my Shaver. At this time I just have a spare draft blower. My solar panels are pumped with the same model pump as the house heating loop, so I can swap pumps if I need to. I am also fortune to be able to purchase a suitable replacement pump locally within a day or two. If my digital controller goes out I can swap back in the old water heater thermostat that came with it until I can get a replacement for the digital unit. Running the electric furnace is an absolute last resort if all else fails.


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## John D

I keep a spare 3 speed grundfos pump,it will work in place of every circ I have in the house,or on the OWB.Also keep a spare solenoid for the blower,and have the stock tstat on the OWB if the Ranco fails.....Im amazed at the number of people who live in areas where it gets down to -20 and they have one heat source,and either no clue how to diagnose/repair it,or no back up heat....I love having the wood with oil backup,spare circs,controllers,and multiple generators to run it all in a pinch..


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## scag52

My house came with electric baseboard .I installed forced air propane,freestanding wood stove in basement, Two kerosene heaters,propane torpedo heater and the Shaver 290. Guys at work say only a redneck would have so many heating sources . Lol. 

I sell for Shaver so I have spare parts. Nice thing about them is you don't need much to use them.


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## Yomax4

I keep a spare blower, T-stat ( Aquastat ) in case the Ranco goes bad ( it doesn't read correctly ) A couple extra pumps because I use 5. I bought a bottle of anti-corrosion off of e-bay and they messed up and sent me 12. I'm set.


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## jmruggiero

*replacing door seal on the shaver*

has anyone replaced the door seal on the shaver with the rope type or is the silcone a better seal.


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## scag52

I've heard of some guys switching to rope .They were having problems with the glue that holds the rope breaking down . I think using silicone to hold the rope in place works good.

I just drilled and tapped the bracket and used a 3/8 bolt with a head off a 3/4 bolt welded on the backside to allow adjustment of the door seal.

I think no matter what you use this needs done .


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## Yomax4

I too did the Adjustable bolt trick last year. I think I will re-silicone for next season and see what happens. 

Question, It's getting close ( in MN. ) to the end of OWB season. I have drained my stove (s ) the last 2 summers for various changes and works. Now I am good to go with Corrosion inhibitor installed and have used very little water this year due to some great info gathered here. Do we drain or do we not drain for the summer season.??


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## scag52

Dont drain. Why waste the treatment ? Just open the bottom drain every so often to blow out the sediment.


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## Holdstihl

yomax4 said:


> I too did the Adjustable bolt trick last year. I think I will re-silicone for next season and see what happens.
> 
> Question, It's getting close ( in MN. ) to the end of OWB season. I have drained my stove (s ) the last 2 summers for various changes and works. Now I am good to go with Corrosion inhibitor installed and have used very little water this year due to some great info gathered here. Do we drain or do we not drain for the summer season.??


 
If you used the treatment from shaver that lasts five years, I wouldn't even consider draining it. I can just picture the bare metal starting to rust as the water runs out. A couple mods I will be doing this summer: Installing a well for the ranco - hanging the probe directly in the water is a bad idea, (thanks shaver!) Probe failure in mid Feb. :msp_angry:I'm also extending the stack further into the fire box, or building some sort of baffle, havn't decided yet. Looking forward to start cutting wood for next year


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## Yomax4

I made a well by installing a T in the pex below my pump. My Ranco does not read correctly so I am unsure if it is the well or the Ranco. 
Thanks..


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## joejoe

*Wiring diagram*



Cirrus Aviator said:


> The 3-way is the best use. I have one side of the switch powering the yard light on the front of the the boiler. The other side of the switch powers the blower. Way to go Beerman. I have also wired a normally open thermostat in series with my aqua stat. That way if the water temp gets below what I set, 140 in this case, the blower goes off. Works great if I sleep in or go out of town. That way the blower is not blowing sub zero air in the burn chamber. It was a $20 dollar unit. If anyone is interested I can post the wire diagram.


 
Yes I would like to see how you wired that so I can do the same. Thanks


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## joejoe

*Could you please send m ethe wiring diagram?*



Cirrus Aviator said:


> The 3-way is the best use. I have one side of the switch powering the yard light on the front of the the boiler. The other side of the switch powers the blower. Way to go Beerman. I have also wired a normally open thermostat in series with my aqua stat. That way if the water temp gets below what I set, 140 in this case, the blower goes off. Works great if I sleep in or go out of town. That way the blower is not blowing sub zero air in the burn chamber. It was a $20 dollar unit. If anyone is interested I can post the wire diagram.


 
That would be a great help- thanks


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## jason37756

*brick in door*

it may have already been said, but here is my spill....

i was able to place fire brick in the door of my shaver 165. i laid 4 on their sides and 2 vertically on top of each other to fill the cavity. the top bricks had to be cut/grinded to fit, which is fairly simple. 

to get the brick into the door cavity i cut the two top brackets (i was able to leave the bottom ones intact) that hold the heat shield in place. after they were cut i simply pried the shield open (1/2") and slid the brick in. the spacing was perfect for the cavity/brick and after a few quick tack welds is was good to go. there was no need to place any supports under the brick on the bottom portion of the door. additionally the hinges are holding every thing just fine.

i felt that this was quicker for me than the concrete board and i have a 2" thick fire brick that will never neeed replacing.


like others i added an additional layer of R13 all the way around the unit as well as the digital thermostat and blower modfication.

i will try to get a few pictures up in the near future.

any thought or concerns are WELCOMED?????


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## jason37756

*pictures of door mod as promised*

no real rocket science here. thanks for all the help from the other posters.View attachment 190471
View attachment 190472


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## Yomax4

*Fire Brick*

I installed mine this weekend. Does fit nice and tight. Should be another good Mod. Does anyone pull the heat exchanger in the furnace to clean? If so how often.

Thanks.


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## trshmn

Like to hear your thoughts!!! going to shut the shaver down for 2 weeks but will keep the pumps running, will keep gas furnace on, temps will be in 20's- 30's here in ohio, do you think anything will freeze up since the pumps will still be running????


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## Canton

My guess - and it's just that - a guess, is that you'd be O.K. I let my shaver 250 go for a week a couple of Januaries ago for new years and it was still 85 degrees when I got home. Don't remember how cold it was out, but I'm in central PA if that helps. I loaded the firebox, cracked the damper plate on the fan on the back, shut the fan off and let the pump run. I was running it at 160F set point, so I would imagine if you ran it up higher, it may be better. I'm sure there's someone here that can explain the physics behind this better, but you're going to loose more heat, faster at the beginning because of the large delta in temps. The closer you get to the temperature of the outside, the slower you'll approach it. If you're gas furnace is on the other side of a heat exchanger I'd say you're golden.

No matter what you do, give us an update when it's over and let us know how you made out. Good info.


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## trshmn

yes my gas furnace will be blowing through the heat exchanger, just never have left it go out in winter since 08 but was thinking it should be good, will keep you posted in 2 weeks


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