# New tricks



## 4675797 (Jan 26, 2012)

Any one have any new decending tricks or tips? :msp_smile:


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## superjunior (Jan 26, 2012)

you mean ASCENDING? descending is usually the easy part...


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 27, 2012)

Most of the time I just use the figure of 8, and rappel out of there.


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## 4675797 (Jan 27, 2012)

Sorry I men't acendiing/descending tricks


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## Grace Tree (Jan 27, 2012)

Do a search here and on youtube for Rope Wrench, Unicender, Lockjack, Wraptor. That's some of the mechanical stuff. If you have more specific questions after that, ask away.
Phil


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 27, 2012)

youtube spiderjackery II


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

4675797 said:


> Any one have any new decending tricks or tips? :msp_smile:



It's nothing new, but I like to use a couple of Bachmans to ascend. The top one is used like a chest ascender, while the other has a foot sling attached to it so I do a sit/stand type of ascent. 

When I'm ready to come down I clip into a carabiner and rappel, or just reverse the sit/stand ascent into a stand/sit descent. 

1/2" rope
7mm prusik chord
Spring loaded gate/Screw locking collared carabiners


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> It's nothing new, but I like to use a couple of Bachmans to ascend. The top one is used like a chest ascender, while the other has a foot sling attached to it so I do a sit/stand type of ascent.
> 
> When I'm ready to come down I clip into a carabiner and rappel, or just reverse the sit/stand ascent into a stand/sit descent.
> 
> ...



Simply as an FYI, screw lock biners are not up to standards. All life support biners should be triple action, and for good reason. Not because the ANSI will arrest you, but because the ground will arrest you if your screw lock unexpectedly opens.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 27, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Simply as an FYI, screw lock biners are not up to standards. All life support biners should be triple action, and for good reason. Not because the ANSI will arrest you, but because the ground will arrest you if your screw lock unexpectedly opens.



O.K. Dad.

What type of device do you recommend?


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## roelex14 (Jan 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> O.K. Dad.
> 
> What type of device do you recommend?



its all fun and games till someone...


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 27, 2012)

For long hauls up, I would ride an SRT line up with a double handle ascender to pull up on. Then I'd use a pantene on one foot. Maybe add a second pantene with a bungi cord attached to keep this one coming upp. 

I might place a prussic on the SRT, and attach a DRT system to it with a spiderjack or lock jack. 

I don't have the spider or lock jack. I don't have the pantenes. I do use a one handle ascender on my SRT. BTW the SRT is the fastest way up. I also use an ascender with a homemade stirrup on it. And attaching a prussic on the line with a pulley attached to it so I can DRT off that is not much too handle.

I'm a big fan of the RADS system too.


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 27, 2012)

ForTheAction said:


> For long hauls up, I would ride an SRT line up with a double handle ascender to pull up on. Then I'd use a pantene on one foot. Maybe add a second pantene with a bungi cord attached to keep this one coming upp.
> 
> I might place a prussic on the SRT, and attach a DRT system to it with a spiderjack or lock jack.
> 
> ...



Ed, I've been trying really hard to avoid hackin on ya, but jeez man, you just make it to ez.

You use shampoo on your feet while your climbing? And how in the heck do you attach a bungi to the shampoo?

Next, when you're combining your SRT and your DRT, doesn't that equal a TRT? (triple rope tech) Innovative man, you're coming up with stuff that's never even been dreamed of.

Honestly man, you've been here years, and you obviously still don't understand how to talk about climbing systems. It makes us think that you don't understand the climbing systems, and therefore are a danger to yourself and anyone that you attempt to "educate".

Please, for the good of mankind, get with the program. As much as I enjoy flipping you crap, I'd feel really bad to hear that you got yourself seriously hurt, or worse.


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 27, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Ed, I've been trying really hard to avoid hackin on ya, but jeez man, you just make it to ez.
> 
> You use shampoo on your feet while your climbing? And how in the heck do you attach a bungi to the shampoo?
> 
> ...




Oh, that's just how I hurt myself. Wait. I'll get into how I really work. 

....without hands.....or feet.


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 27, 2012)

http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/118676.htm


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## Tree Pig (Jan 27, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> O.K. Dad.
> 
> What type of device do you recommend?



dude seriously, you are obviously clueless and someone gives you a legit answer to the question, with your safety in mind and thats the way you respond... by the way one of the main reasons screw locks are a no no, it has been proven that on top of several other action that can unintentionally unlock them, just the simple act of the rope running across the gate on a ascent or decent can unscrew them. Next stop is your dumb ass on the ground. If you knew so much then you would not be here asking would you?


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## ForTheArborist (Jan 27, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> dude seriously, you are obviously clueless and someone gives you a legit answer to your question, with your safety in mind and thats the way you respond... by the way one of the main reasons screw locks are a no no, it has been proven that on top of several other action that can unintentionally unlock them, just the simple act of the rope running across the gate on a ascent or decent can unscrew them. Next stop is your dumb ass on the ground. If you knew so much then you would not be here asking would you?



I have a re-occurring nightmare about this, and the best part of the dream is that no one in the county sells triple lock biners. I wake up in shock............and mad.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 28, 2012)

They sell them all over SD. They sell alot more online.


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## superjunior (Jan 28, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> dude seriously, you are obviously clueless and someone gives you a legit answer to your question, with your safety in mind and thats the way you respond... by the way one of the main reasons screw locks are a no no, it has been proven that on top of several other action that can unintentionally unlock them, just the simple act of the rope running across the gate on a ascent or decent can unscrew them. Next stop is your dumb ass on the ground. If you knew so much then you would not be here asking would you?



I used to use screw locks for a couple different things, one of which was attaching my saw to the saw strap. Last season I noticed it was loosening up on its own and one day while trimming a locust I reached for my saw and it was gone. I looked around and it was stuck in a limb about 20 ft away - didn't make it to the ground luckily. I don't use screw locks any more for anything.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> dude seriously, you are obviously clueless and someone gives you a legit answer to the question, with your safety in mind and thats the way you respond...



I didn't ask a question, so how did anyone give me an answer to one???



> by the way one of the main reasons screw locks are a no no, it has been proven that on top of several other action that can unintentionally unlock them, just the simple act of the rope running across the gate on a ascent or decent can unscrew them.



The rope can't run across the gate on a Bachman, if it did it wouldn't unlock the collar, let alone open the gate, and allow all of the raps to come out.

I place the mouth of the gate facing down, if the gate did by some stretch of the imagination come open then only the first rap would come out leaving me 3 more since I always use 4 raps on the top Bachman.




> Next stop is your dumb ass on the ground. If you knew so much then you would not be here asking would you?



You really should pay closer attention to who you're replying to, cause I'm not the one asking the question in this post. Not only that, but just because someone asks a question doesn't mean they're a dumb ass by default. You moron!


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

superjunior said:


> I used to use screw locks for a couple different things, one of which was attaching my saw to the saw strap. Last season I noticed it was loosening up on its own and one day while trimming a locust I reached for my saw and it was gone. I looked around and it was stuck in a limb about 20 ft away - didn't make it to the ground luckily. I don't use screw locks any more for anything.



I have 4 different types of biners, biners with spring loaded gate only, biners with only a screw collar for a gate, biners with a spring loaded gate and a spring loaded locking collar, and biners with a spring loaded gate and a screw type locking collar.

The biners with spring loaded gate and the screw type locking collar are the ones I use for my Bachmans. They're also the most reliable biners I've used.

If anyone knows of a better biner, please enlighten me.


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 28, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> The rope can't run across the gate on a Bachman, if it did it wouldn't unlock the collar, let alone open the gate, and allow all of the raps to come out.
> 
> I place the mouth of the gate facing down, if the gate did by some stretch of the imagination come open then only the first rap would come out leaving me 3 more since I always use 4 raps on the top Bachman.



Look, it's pretty simple....

We're not concerned with the biner that you use incorporated into your rock climbing knot. It's the one on the tail end of your crazy rig, that attaches to your saddle. You do use a saddle, right? How is your Bachman attached to your saddle? 

I'm betting it's with a single or double action biner. And that's just not safe. 

Beyond that, it's terribly inefficient, because you've got no quick way to the ground. Cut yourself, encounter bees, or a whole list of other problems which could necessitate getting to the ground quickly, and you're screwed, just like your biner.

I've got single action (spring gate) biners too, and they are never used in life support. I've got screw locking biners too, and again, they're never used in life support. 

Learn and use the right gear for the job, otherwise you're just another joker waiting on a quick trip to the hard pan.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2012)

ForTheAction said:


> I have a re-occurring nightmare about this, and the best part of the dream is that no one in the county sells triple lock biners. I wake up in shock............and mad.



Whats all that Red about man?


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Look, it's pretty simple....
> 
> We're not concerned with the biner that you use incorporated into your rock climbing knot. It's the one on the tail end of your crazy rig, that attaches to your saddle. You do use a saddle, right? How is your Bachman attached to your saddle?
> 
> I'm betting it's with a single or double action biner. And that's just not safe.



I have another biner(the same type) with the prusik cord looped around it twice, and the biner clipped into the rappel ring.

I could set it up several ways, since I use a full body harness.





> Beyond that, it's terribly inefficient, because you've got no quick way to the ground. Cut yourself, encounter bees, or a whole list of other problems which could necessitate getting to the ground quickly, and you're screwed, just like your biner.



Bees lol, that's why I always a bee suit when I climb. :msp_sneaky: Really man, if you encounter bees while on a rope, they'll still get ya even if you're already in full rappel. Those little ####ers are fast and agile.



> I've got single action (spring gate) biners too, and they are never used in life support. I've got screw locking biners too, and again, they're never used in life support.
> 
> Learn and use the right gear for the job, otherwise you're just another joker waiting on a quick trip to the hard pan.



Next you'll be telling me to climb safer trees.

I mean really, you keep saying I should use safer gear, but you don't have any suggestions on which gear is safer. 

Again; What gear do you recommend? I can't imagine being any safer than I already am without making my rig so redundant that it becomes impractical and too cumbersome to use.


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## Tree Pig (Jan 28, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I didn't ask a question, so how did anyone give me an answer to one???
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes I did confuse you with the OP at first but the meat of the reply is in regards to your ignorant newbie reply to someone giving you life saving advice... but you go ahead and use that screw lock its obviously just a matter of time before you get hurt anyways.


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## Tree Pig (Jan 28, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I have another biner(the same type) with the prusik cord looped around it twice, and the biner clipped into the rappel ring.
> 
> I could set it up several ways, since I use a full body harness.
> 
> ...



you have no business in a tree stop now...


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> you have no business in a tree stop now...



Lol, you're funny man.


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## ddhlakebound (Jan 28, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I have another biner(the same type) with the prusik cord looped around it twice, and the biner clipped into the rappel ring.
> 
> I could set it up several ways, since I use a full body harness.
> 
> ...



I already told you in my first post in this thread what kind of biner you should be using for life support (triple action). Beyond that, do your own research on what you like which meets the standards for this industry.

And you completely failed to address what happens to you if you need to get to the ground quickly. Instead, you make your bee suit joke as if it were relevant. Getting stung a few times, no big deal. Hanging there, unable to descend quickly, and getting stung over and over and over and over, well that's a big deal. Sometimes a killer even. If you cut yourself, could you do a change over one handed before you bleed out? 

Yeah, yeah, I already know your next response.....You've never cut yourself aloft, and never will. Well keep hoping, cause it's happened to people who are better climbers and cutters than you.

Your rig already sounds very cumbersome and impractical, unless you're always upright and on the trunk of the tree. And if you're always upright and on the trunk, well, that doesn't sound much like good tree work to me.


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## tree md (Jan 28, 2012)

Once upon a time screw locking biners were popular with the rock climbing and caving crowd. I have read somewhere, I think in the book "On Rope" it states that if you use a wrench to secure your screw lock then it is considered one of the three part (maybe two part back in those days) actions that is requisite for life support. But really, who wants to go through all that mess. Do you want to carry a wrench with you to make sure you are in compliance with standards? Really, that is a great book (a classic) as well as a lot of the older texts but it's 80's tech. There are better solutions these days.

As far as ascending I use a CMI foot ascender and a hand ascender made by Black Daimond. I virtually always ascend Ddrt as I have found I don't like to take the time to switch over and go through all of that mess. It works best for my climbing style. I know of others who work off of SRT systems and it works great for them but I personally like to keep it simple. I have seen some who come up with such technical ascending systems that it becomes time consuming and unproductive. I am into making money, not playing with shiny bling to get up in the tree with.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> I already told you in my first post in this thread what kind of biner you should be using for life support (triple action). Beyond that, do your own research on what you like which meets the standards for this industry.



If by triple action you mean the type that you have to pull the barrel back, twist it, and then open the gate, I have that type. That type opens easier than my screw barreled types.

The screw barreled type is difficult to unlock if I tighten the barrel down too tight with my fingers. 

The triple action type takes very little effort to open, which to me means it's less secure.



> And you completely failed to address what happens to you if you need to get to the ground quickly.



I sit in my harness, slide the lower Bachmann up, clip my rope into my biner, disconnect the upper Bachmann, and rappel down. Takes about 3 or 4 seconds. 





> If you cut yourself, could you do a change over one handed before you bleed out?



If I cut myself I'm going to stop the bleeding before I worry about getting down. 

Really man, do you bleed less on the ground?


[/QUOTE]Your rig already sounds very cumbersome and impractical, unless you're always upright and on the trunk of the tree.[/QUOTE]

With a little rigging I could work upside down and sideways if I want. Heck, I could top out an entire cluster of trees and never leave the canopy.


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## Tree Pig (Jan 28, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> If by triple action you mean the type that you have to pull the barrel back, twist it, and then open the gate, I have that type. That type opens easier than my screw barreled types.
> 
> The screw barreled type is difficult to unlock if I tighten the barrel down too tight with my fingers.
> 
> ...



You know the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink" there is a reason they used a horse and not a jack ass. Thats because you cant lead a jack ass anywhere he dont want to go and they dont listen to a word you say. 

This guy is a jack ass


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> You know the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink" there is a reason they used a horse and not a jack ass. Thats because you cant lead a jack ass anywhere he dont want to go and they dont listen to a word you say.
> 
> This guy is a jack ass



Well then we'll just ignore you then.:msp_sneaky:


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## rtsims (Jan 28, 2012)

*Carburetorless*

These guys are truly just trying to help. You need to do more research and expand your knowledge in the world of arboriculture. If you honestly think that because your triple lock biner is easier to open using your hands than your screw lock is, and that makes it less safe, you have zero business steping into a saddle. Im not trying to put you down, but you need to listen to these guys when they say something, especially when it concerns safety.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 28, 2012)

rtsims said:


> These guys are truly just trying to help. You need to do more research and expand your knowledge in the world of arboriculture. If you honestly think that because your triple lock biner is easier to open using your hands than your screw lock is, and that makes it less safe, you have zero business steping into a saddle. Im not trying to put you down, but you need to listen to these guys when they say something, especially when it concerns safety.



I asked the guy each time to expand my knowledge by explaining himself, but he seems more intent on flaming, so there's not much I'm going to learn by listening to him.

I've used the "triple locking" biners, and I've had them come open while on rope. The screw locking collared ones I've never had that happen with, so I'm sticking to what works be for me.


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## Tree Pig (Jan 28, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I asked the guy each time to expand my knowledge by explaining himself, but he seems more intent on flaming, so there's not much I'm going to learn by listening to him.
> 
> I've used the "triple locking" biners, and I've had them come open while on rope. The screw locking collared ones I've never had that happen with, so I'm sticking to what works be for me.



dont listen to us or ANSI you got it all figured out. Them experts dont have a friggen clue. Good luck... invest in a good helmet.


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## Huskytree (Jan 28, 2012)

*No helmet*

Neah don't wear a helmet you need all the sense you can get knocked into you.


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## tree md (Jan 28, 2012)

Used to be biners weren't ANZI approved for tree work period. Change isn't easy and comes slow to most. I certainly do not like change and having to learn something unfamiliar. I can't stand it when they change facebook or my web browser so you can imagine how I feel about my climbing gear.

When I started out there were no locking snaps that I was aware of. I'm sure there probably were but they surely didn't sell them in my local arborist supply. Rope snaps and lanyards had just that "rope snaps". When they changed the safety standard to require locking snaps I absolutely hated them. But like anything else, you change for the better and get used to it. Change is not always comfortable but is always good when personal safety is concerned.


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## kevin bingham (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks for reintroducing me to the bachmans. I have normally used a kleimheist on a DRT for my left foot ascender (upper ascender in frog walking. The bachman knot slides better. I dont see a problem with a screw gate for that purpose. You don't tie into the biner itself. The bachman's hitch is a great one to know. It gives you a little handle. It is a great cheap ascender.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 31, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> dont listen to us or ANSI you got it all figured out. Them experts dont have a friggen clue. Good luck... invest in a good helmet.



What's your deal man?!

I don't have it all figured out and I never claimed to have it all figured out. Stop being an #######.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 31, 2012)

kevin bingham said:


> Thanks for reintroducing me to the bachmans. I have normally used a kleimheist on a DRT for my left foot ascender (upper ascender in frog walking. The bachman knot slides better. I dont see a problem with a screw gate for that purpose. You don't tie into the biner itself. The bachman's hitch is a great one to know. It gives you a little handle. It is a great cheap ascender.



I like it, it doesn't cut up your rope like mechanical ascenders.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 31, 2012)

Huskytree said:


> Neah don't wear a helmet you need all the sense you can get knocked into you.



Give it a rest Bud


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