# calling all fallers



## forestryworks (Mar 31, 2007)

looking to become a faller

halfway through my forestry degree right now

i know the forest service is kinda tough to get into
cause once you're in, you're in for life, pretty much... right?

as far as careers, falling crew first, and urban forestry second

any advice?


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## burlman (Mar 31, 2007)

I don't think there is to much work left if you want to be a dedicated faller only. the west coast is your only range. most eastern companies are going mechanical falling. I just read that in british columbia they started an intense certification course, due to all the fatalities these past few years. I fall for my own operations, fall and limb a hitch, then I get to run the skidder for a litlle break, in between. also do urban trees in the warm months, the variety is nice, I like all the jobs in my carreer, because of the change. I couldnt be a faller everyday, week after week, nor can I longer run my portable sawmill every day, but with the option of changing as the mood hits, you look forward to the next days activities.


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## SRT-Tech (Mar 31, 2007)

^ the BC Fallers Certification course is around $10,000. Its a two month program, at malaspina university. Factor in relocation and living costs for those 2 months, plus another chunk of C- notes for the WCB exam afterwards.


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## Sprig (Mar 31, 2007)

SRT-Tech said:


> ^ the BC Fallers Certification course is around $10,000. Its a two month program, at malaspina university. Factor in relocation and living costs for those 2 months, plus another chunk of C- notes for the WCB exam afterwards.



Not to mention seasonal, back breaking work, feast and famin, union bs, etc etc.. Most of the fallers I know (who are still alive) worked from the bottom rung, chasing, choking, swamping, bucking, pulling cable, what-ever, its not something you generally just decide to do and go jump in. Quite frankly if all you had was a course in falling on your resume you'd be looking long and hard to find someone to take you in/under wing as, as far as I'm concerned, there is so much to learn I don't see a course getting it all together and preparing someone for the actual reality of the job.

I may be mistaken but this is only my personal opinion.



Serge


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## Gologit (Mar 31, 2007)

If you're getting a degree in forestry why not just go to work for one of the timber companies? They all employ staff foresters and the bigger companies employ many of them. 
Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be a faller. As far as I'm concerned it's the best job in the woods. If I hadn't had a log roll on me and ruin my knees I'd still be falling. But take a look around...theres a lot more old foresters still going to work every day than there are old fallers. 
If you're interested in forestry as a career PM me and I'll give you the name and address of the people I work for. They require a four-year degree from an accredited college but they will hire with no other experience than the degree. They can let you know what they're looking for.
As far as being a faller...I'm not sure how you'd break into that anymore. Theres still a lot of falling out here but you just about have to know somebody to get started. Lot's of travel, lots of being away from home all week. No real job security. Not much money until you get established and have the contacts to work steady. Hope this helps. Bob


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## SRT-Tech (Mar 31, 2007)

Sprig said:


> Not to mention seasonal, back breaking work, feast and famin, union bs, etc etc.. Most of the fallers I know (who are still alive) worked from the bottom rung, chasing, choking, swamping, bucking, pulling cable, what-ever, its not something you generally just decide to do and go jump in. Quite frankly if all you had was a course in falling on your resume you'd be looking long and hard to find someone to take you in/under wing as, as far as I'm concerned, there is so much to learn I don't see a course getting it all together and preparing someone for the actual reality of the job.
> 
> I may be mistaken but this is only my personal opinion.
> 
> ...



could'nt agree more. i know a few loggers and they are saying that there bosses will not hire someone from that course, under any circumstances. They want guys that want to start at the bottom, and work their way up.


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## tek9tim (Apr 1, 2007)

You really can't be a "faller" for the Forest Service. The crews that do the most felling in the Forest Service are fire crews, and unless you think burning snags are a fun thing to get under with a saw, (happens to be one of the things that gets me out of bed in the summer) and of course working your way through the ranks to become faller on a crew will take a couple seasons, but ultimately, being a faller on a crew is not a career choice. You make roughly 11.80 an hour, and can only work up to 6 months a year. (typically) Plus, your body gets beat. Most of the guys I know that've been FS fallers for several seasons in a row have had seperated shoulders from packing the 044 around the woods 16 hours a day all summer. Dumb place to be with a college degree. So, sticking with the fact that fire crews dump the most trees (ok, aside from timber stand improvement crews, but they don't cut much over 5" dbh) having a college degree would put you up toward being leadership on a crew. In order to be leadership, you can't have earplugs in and be running a saw. Plus, everbody hates working for somebody with a college degree and no on the ground experience. The better place for you to be with a college degree is to be working in the timber shop. As far as "once you're in, you're in for life" that isn't entirely true, and where it is, it's not as you'd expect. Once you're a permenant seasonal (not easy to become), it's harder for them to get rid of you. But, I know plenty of people on downsizing districts that are getting moved across the country to new jobs, because the one they did have got eliminated, and rather than make a career change, they've made life changes and moved. 

When it comes down to it, tipping over trees is a hell of a lot of fun, but it takes a good body and compromise to make much of a career out of it. I thought the whole point of getting a college degree was to avoid the knuckle dragging jobs.


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## forestryworks (Apr 1, 2007)

for most people gettin' a degree is so they don't have to break a sweat doing anything...

not me

i like working outside
i've done manual labor most of my life
and i'd like to get in some big jobs before i get old

my degree is something to fall back on
and quickly rebound

always have a plan B


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## Jacob J. (Apr 1, 2007)

I highly recommend you stay away from timber falling as a career choice. I worked for years as a firefighter for the U.S. Forest Service on "Hotshot" crews and then I quit fire management to go to work full time as a timber falling contractor. I'll outline the important points so you can make an informed decision.

1.-Contractor's/logger's broadform, insurance, and OSHA account- Just to get these three things in Oregon/Washington will set you back around $2200.00 total. Some agencies will let you pay a portion down and make monthly payments, but that's only on the broadform. You still have to shell out $540.00 for a comp account and pay your own health insurance if you want it. Payroll taxes are a whole different animal.

2.-Industry contacts- you need to know people in the industry if you want to get work. People have to know that you can dump timber day in and day out, and do it right and be reliable. It's a lot harder than it looks. On a straight falling job (dumping trees straight down the hill with the butts up) you'll have to put around 275+ trees down a day to be profitable. That includes flushing the butts on anything over 12" and taking a log off of anything that the processor can't handle (usually 22" and above). On a full manufacture job (falling, limbing, and bucking) in western second growth plan on getting at least three loads a day. People aren't going to hire you just because you're a cutter with your own numbers. Cutters that work as employees make dismal wages. 

3.-Reliable employers- There's a lot of loggers out there that hate fallers with a passion. I've heard many loggers, especially in bigger companies, refer to fallers as a "necessary evil". A lot of them will quote you a price at the beginning of the job and then find excuses during the job or at the end of the job to pay you less money or completely rip you off. I'm going through a deal right now with a contractor that owes me and my partner about $4500, he won't return our calls and won't acknowledge our existence. 

4.-Misc. expenses- On paper it sounds like fallers make good money, you'll hear guys talk about making upwards of $375/day or better. Those jobs are few and far between and you spend a lot of that money doing the work. Plus, there's a lot of layoff time unless you have several loggers on your string which rarely works because keeping a logger satisfied is a high maintenance job. 

Basically you can take your degree and go to work in private industry as a professional forester doing pre-sale work, layout, and contract administration and make a worry-free $50-60k a year with a benefit package. Or, you could buy saws, jacks, rolls of chain, a chain grinder, axes, wedges, spencer tapes, multiple hardhats, tally counters, scale books, saw parts, and many other necessities and bust your butt to make $40k a year, most of which you'll spend on the job. 

The best money in falling is working for the helicopter loggers. But this involves living on the road 2-300 days out of the year in a fifth wheel or pull trailer and not seeing your family much. Once in a while a cutter will meet or marry a woman that will tolerate that lifestyle but again that's extremely rare. The divorce rate for cutters is high, the quality of life is low, and at the end- you're not left with much.


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## slowp (Apr 1, 2007)

And here is how it is with the USFS right now in my neck of the woods...the owl forest. I've worked 30 years now all in timber except for 4 years as an engineer. I'm not a "Forester" but have a 2 year degree. Right now I'm doing what I love, contract administration. I'll retire doing this, I hope. Our people up here in the Pacific Northwest have finally realized that they have not hired any new people in eons, and the workforce is retiring in droves.
They are TALKING about getting new foresters hired, but I have not seen any action. Here's what has happened in the past:
1990s, the Clinton Forest Plan was put into effect. The west side timber programs crashed. The timber-engineering purge went into motion. Timber and engineering jobs were done away with, folks were given the option of moving to whereever the need was (I ended up in AZ) or being fired. More 
'ologists were hired. 
Throughout the 90's the timber budgets were cut, trees were not. At one point, we were told that there would be no more timber, period. (that's when I gave engineering a try). 
Bush is elected: Suddenly, the anti-timber management people started saying "We're going to put up timber sales." But, they had gotten rid of much of the timber workforce. The politics of Washington DC did not match the rulings of the courts. We're contracting out a lot of the layout and such.
The district I am working on now, used to CUT 150 MMBF a year. Now we try to put up 8MMBF. It is one of the worst districts as far as the planning goes.
So, if you chose to work as a Forester for the feds, in timber, be prepared for constant change. The agency is unable to plan beyond a year, and morale is at an all time low. You no longer can be guaranteed to work till retirement. Jobs are being consolidated and contracted out. Also, there is the sanity factor. As a Forester, you would work in the field for a few years, then be relegated to the office and "management". 90% of the people seem to love this, they claim they can do planning from the GIS and maps and only go out on sunny nice days. That is part of the problem.  

I can only keep sane anymore by going out to the field. When I have to go to meetings where sales are planned (gutted) I go mental! All of the decision makers on how the sales will be are biologists of some sort. Right now, there are no foresters. The planners seem to be anti-logging and only put out enough volume to keep their jobs. But, there are better places than here.


What keeps me sane, is that I get to work with folks who have to produce to make a living...I call it the REAL WORLD. There arw not days of endless meetings to make a decision, and on the ground work gets done. 
I've been told I have the best job in the FS. I tend to think so. You might be interested. I go out and check contract compliance on one hand. On the other, I also work as a go between, trying to fix errors made during the planning process. But, should you choose to do this, you have to be out on hot, dusty days, or on days when the rain is pouring down. If the loggers are out, you should be out. I'm often down in the brush with the rigging crew, or checking out the falling. The ground is rough, and I'm stumbling/walking through slash. But, I don't have to go jogging after work to keep in shape.  The attitude of the loggers in this area has also changed from what it was during the 80s. Then it seemed we were in constant battle, now the ones that are left, pretty much follow the rules. 

Anyway, you might look into the field of sale administration. You should spend time doing timber cruising and layout, get some logging systems training. You could also go through the FS saw certification, and maybe get on some fires. Our saw certification is a 40 hour course and then working with the certifier. There's A,B, and C classifications, with C fallers doing the big or difficult trees. It is no way like production falling.

The fallers I work with have all started on rigging crews. Like previously stated, it looks like they make good money but they have to buy things like a $1000 saw and accessories, a 4X4 pickup (one logging company provides transportation) and are usually not working part of the year. There aren't many old fallers out working, and there's a lot of injuries. 

The logging crews have a high turnover. It seems like I see different faces every week. The wages are not that good and the work is hard and dangerous. But, at least they get things done....

This is my lengthy view of both sides of working in the woods. . 
You could try a couple years with the FS as a summer seasonal, go work on a rigging crew, and then make a decision. Or go with a private company. Sounds like you are young and have time to try things out. Any questions? Good luck!:bang:


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## Jacob J. (Apr 1, 2007)

Slowp, that was a terrific post and it's right on the money. Being a forester for the government is a dead end career path these days, unless you have a degree in some kind of *ology*, soil science, or fisheries. There will never be logging on the scale of what it was 20-30-40 years ago because there's so much existing legislation in place, even if we had republican administrations in the white house for the next 20 years. 

In fact, a lot of people I knew in the regular F.S. general population that were in Timber/Engineering/Silviculture switched over to fire management in the mid-late 90's and have had continuing successful careers as a result. The crew superintendent for La Grande hotshots right now was a timber sale admin for 16 years. One of the guys that broke me in on the hotshots had spent 21 years in silviculture as a tree planting inspector, and he was as tough as old shoe leather. He continued to fight fire up until his retirement at age 58. 

As far as cutting tree on forest fires, that's a tough market to get into now. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Managment overhead teams only like to use commercial fallers for that purpose. Even a "C" certified agency faller only gets to fall a handful of trees a year whereas a commercial private industry faller is tackling tough/dangerous trees everyday. I was an agency "C" faller for ten years before going to work as a falling contractor and I quickly learned when I started that my ten years as a forest service faller really didn't teach me a lot, other than a good understanding of the basics. There's also a company here in Oregon that is basically getting most of the on-call forest fire falling work, and that's Northwest Timber Fallers http://www.nwtimberfallers.com/. 

They've been establishing a pool of contractors for CWN fallers since 2000 and they're the "go-to" group now for the F.S. and B.L.M., and individuals don't stand much chance of getting good fire assignments anymore. The state governments will still hire individual fallers but it's only a matter of time before NWT sews that market up as well. 

Forestryworks, if you want to cut trees get a job with a tree service company that is owned by or employs a reputable arborist. Have them teach you about rigging and falling. The pay starting out isn't very good but you'll learn a lot and the quality of life is a lot better than an entry level job in logging. Talk to one of the experienced arborists here, Like RBtree (one of the best on the planet in my opinion) or John Paul Sanborn (a moderator here). Get their ideas on how to start out in that industry. If you absolutely have to work as a pro faller to satisfy your curiosity, then your best route is to go to work for a small logger on the logging crew initially and then have them get you experience with falling and bucking. There's a lot of gypo loggers that cut and log the timber themselves.


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2007)

*Take the advice*

Forestryworks....If you're still with us...listen to these guys. Tek9Tim, JacobJ, slowp, all these guys have real world experience in what you want to do. Listen to them...make copies of their posts and read them over once in awhile. You'd be surprised how different this business is from the inside looking out. Most of us still involved in the timber industry are here because it's what we really like to do. Most of us have never really wanted to be any place else but the woods. But to advise a young man starting out to try to make a career out of logging would be a mistake. I know I'll get some argument here but I just don't think the living will be there for a kid starting out like it's been for me. If you want to be a faller you have to know that you have a good chance of being permanently crippled or worse before you're fifty. 
Get your degree, shoot for a staff or management job. Cut wood on the week-ends if you want to. Hook up with somebody already involved in logging and see if you like it as much as you're going to need to to make it a career.  I'll get off my soap-box now, Good luck to you...whatever you decide. Bob


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## redprospector (Apr 1, 2007)

My son wanted to be a faller, so I put him to work felling trees and trying to teach him how not to be injured or killed on the job (I have come close a few times, so I know what not to do.). He has done a good job for the last 4 years, but I heard of an opening in a local municipality and he jumped on it.
He said the pay was better, and there was something they called benefits.  He can always cut trees on the weekend if he gets the bug, but it's hard to support a family felling trees.

Andy


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## forestryworks (Apr 1, 2007)

you guys have put out some heavy information 

thanks to each of ya...

stay safe


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## gavin (Apr 2, 2007)

yeah lots of good posts on here. i got my first taste of real falling doing forest fire fighting on a unit crew (our equivalent of the hot shot crews) for the b.c. forest service (my summer job). its what i really love doing and i'm looking into the falling course.

from the info i've found there's local colleges that do it, and the ones i have seen are a 30 day course which runs $9500-$10,000. then after that you get a log book to track your progress, and you have to work with a qualified supervisor for up to 180 days before you can take a test to become a fully certified faller....if you find a company that will take you. keep in mind this is for british columbia, i'm sure its easier and cheaper in other provinces/states because this is a fairly new program here. 

my ex's uncle is a faller and i've spoken to him about becoming a faller. like most people say, its not the best idea to do it as a career, but if its what someone loves to do, good luck talking them out of it. haha. but good on you for getting a degree to have a backup plan. falling is very up and down: shutdowns in the summer for heat (fire risks) and in the winter (from snow)...oh yeah and out here all the fog, since a lot of places you get flipped in with a chopper. also, i'm not sure about other places, but in b.c. the forest industry has gone under a major operational shift. major companies don't have their own employees much anymore. just about everything is contracted now. like timberwest is basically a landowner now. they have key people to decide what gets done, but they contract the harvesting out. there are some very large contractors out there though, so there's still company jobs, but most fallers i've talked to work for themselves, so they're always moving around from contract to contract. hope i helped a bit here. i used to work summers as an engineer/surveyor (mostly on the dumb end of a tight chain and laying out standing stem wood, kinda like a simplified version of timber cruising). working in the woods is definately something i love.


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## Forest Steward (Apr 2, 2007)

Well, I'm kind of in the same boat. I just finished up with school in December with my associates in conservation. Basically, it means nothing in the woods. There's no doubt it helped me better understand how I'm effecting things, but very little practical experience. I was fortunate enough to get set up with a local logger by me school and have been there for a year and a half now. Around here, this is the only way to break into the field. Overhead costs are getting ridiculous, and the debt load you would have to carry for skidders and such is becoming outright unmanageable (that is, unless you have some rich relatives...which I don't). I fell in love with working in the woods about thirty seconds after I started, but realized quickly that falling is only part of it. Like it's already been said, if you want to work for the large companies, they already want experience, but if you want to work on your own, you are going to have to diversify. I'm not sure about the yearly conditions you encounter, but around here, good logging weather is limited. In the down time your either going to have to do firewood, learn how to saw lumber, etc...which encounters more overhead costs. I hate discouraging people from the field, especially if your like me and just outright enjoy the work, but there are some serious factors to consider, and if your have the ambition and luck, to overcome.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 4, 2007)

hey man, do what your heart tells you....i was a prettty good student, went to university but didn't have my heart into it...liked learning but couldn't see myself happy at the end...worked in the woods quite a bit....then, couple years ago, while finishing a diploma course i got a job for a tree service...now i've got my own business...most of my work consists of climbing trees in the forest...whether it be standing stem or windfirming...its fun exciting work...big rush dumping down a 60 ft top with a 200t, or chucking your grapple and swinging from one tree to another....the pay is pretty good but like the fellas say though, the work is seasonal...that's why i'm saving money for a truck and chipper...hoping to balance it out....if you truly want to do something and are smart enough to figure out how to make it work, it'll happen


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## gavin (Apr 4, 2007)

hey 1 I'd jack, i'm probably going to be taking the falling course sometime next year. do you find that you get more or less work days as a climber than a faller would get? if i go through with falling i plan go to camp wherever there's work...camp work doesn't really bother me.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 4, 2007)

Do they offer a loan program for you guys taking that falling course? $10k is awfully steep for that kind of education, especially when it'll take a chunk or two out of your hide as well.


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## gavin (Apr 4, 2007)

haven't looked into loans, but if there is i think it would be through the government, like for university degrees. you also have to pay for your living expenses, and it says provide your own transportation to and from the sites when you're doing field training. i'm guessing that would be a problem in a car, and you'd need a truck.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 7, 2007)

i'm sure fallers are in more demand than climbers right now gavin....however, its seems many of the climbers eventually want to become fallers...fallers generally make more money though i hear of some guys paying their climbers for standing stem $550/day....but you always hear of that kinda stuff....yet i think that stemming wood has certain advantages so it'll probably be around for awhile...i don't know about the windfirming....it could be one of those things that forestry drops...which would be too bad...I've been climbing out in the woods for less than a year, but would way rather windfirm than stem... however, as of right now you can become a climber in the industry without investing $10,000 in a course, as there is no certification process....which will probably change soon....another bonus of climbing is that its skill set transfers over into the residential world...if you have climbing gear, someone always needs your services...more so than a faller...as for the work itself...six in one....both are dangerous...however, we don't have to deal with pussed out snags and can generally see what's going on above our heads...


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## Buzz 880 (Apr 7, 2007)

*1I'Djack*

Any idea what the pay is for fallers out there


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## SRT-Tech (Apr 7, 2007)

gavin said:


> haven't looked into loans, but if there is i think it would be through the government, like for university degrees. you also have to pay for your living expenses, and it says provide your own transportation to and from the sites when you're doing field training. i'm guessing that would be a problem in a car, and you'd need a truck.




^ you are correct. Anyone taking the fallers cert course has to not only pay the tuition, they need to:

- relocate (moving expenses)
- find housing (aint cheap out there)
- own a truck (cars dont make it up to the cutblocks where the course takes place)
- food
- WCB exam fees in richmond BC (ferry ride + $600+ for the exam)

and for some strange reason, the Student Loan program wont approve a loan for that course.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 7, 2007)

the fallers rates that i've heard range from $450-$650....there could be more, could be less..depending whether you are working for a company or are self employed therefore paying your own compo.....having worked the system a bit, i'd figure the best way to get help paying for the fallers course would be through UI....they have programs where they will assist you in training for a trade....often they will allow you to collect ui while training and pay for some of the training as well...you've just had to have been on ui in the last three years...i've done this myself before...it usually involves some hoop jumping, meeting attendance, and forms to fill out...local offshoot government agencies (such as steps to employment or NIEFS) who are connected with ui will help you out.... the bc fallers course is something they might help you out with...


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## Buzz 880 (Apr 7, 2007)

1I'dJak said:


> the fallers rates that i've heard range from $450-$650....there could be more, could be less..depending whether you are working for a company or are self employed therefore paying your own compo.....having worked the system a bit, i'd figure the best way to get help paying for the fallers course would be through UI....they have programs where they will assist you in training for a trade....often they will allow you to collect ui while training and pay for some of the training as well...you've just had to have been on ui in the last three years...i've done this myself before...it usually involves some hoop jumping, meeting attendance, and forms to fill out...local offshoot government agencies (such as steps to employment or NIEFS) who are connected with ui will help you out.... the bc fallers course is something they might help you out with...


Do you know if there is much work for a faller out this time of year or when is the busy time for logging out there.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 11, 2007)

once the snow's gone it seems the fallers i know are working...a lot of work on the mid coast right now it seems...the price of the course will probably make the number of faller's dwindle, but as long as we use wood, there'll always be the need for fallers on the coast...even on second growth settings, as much of the ground is too steep and too wet for a machines... another skill would be to learn is jigging...which is involved in standing stem harvesting....if a guy fell, climbed, and jigged, he'd be in demand and make some bucks....


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## Buzz 880 (Apr 11, 2007)

*I'dJak*



1I'dJak said:


> once the snow's gone it seems the fallers i know are working...a lot of work on the mid coast right now it seems...the price of the course will probably make the number of faller's dwindle, but as long as we use wood, there'll always be the need for fallers on the coast...even on second growth settings, as much of the ground is too steep and too wet for a machines... another skill would be to learn is jigging...which is involved in standing stem harvesting....if a guy fell, climbed, and jigged, he'd be in demand and make some bucks....


I have a video from one of the heli loggers out there it shows some guys jigging out there.But I have climbed lots of trees here in Ontario even some pretty big white pine but I was in BC last spring checked out some of the timber out there those tree's are pretty f..cking big don't think that jigging would be for me.Do you now of any falling contractors on vancouver island.Really thinking about a change unless the price of timber get's better here.


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## gavin (Apr 13, 2007)

jigging isn't much different from falling, just minus the undercut and the tree doesn't fall over. two horizontal cuts with a thin strip of holding wood. obviously there is skill and planning involved, but as far as i know i'm pretty sure you don't have to spend a good chunk of money on a training course. probably start off as a groundman and get trained up. the thing i like about standing stem is it involves all three of what 1 i'd jack mentioned. climbing, jigging and handfalling. and the really big stuff gets jacked over. i wish i got some experience as a groundman and not just the engineering part of it. the SSH was getting ramped up and the company i worked for is laying out lots of SSH wood so i'm sure it will be around for a while. it was a really cool experience to see an S-64 clamp on to a stem, snap it off and fly it to the landing.


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## Buzz 880 (Apr 13, 2007)

*Gavin*



gavin said:


> jigging isn't much different from falling, just minus the undercut and the tree doesn't fall over. two horizontal cuts with a thin strip of holding wood. obviously there is skill and planning involved, but as far as i know i'm pretty sure you don't have to spend a good chunk of money on a training course. probably start off as a groundman and get trained up. the thing i like about standing stem is it involves all three of what 1 i'd jack mentioned. climbing, jigging and handfalling. and the really big stuff gets jacked over. i wish i got some experience as a groundman and not just the engineering part of it. the SSH was getting ramped up and the company i worked for is laying out lots of SSH wood so i'm sure it will be around for a while. it was a really cool experience to see an S-64 clamp on to a stem, snap it off and fly it to the landing.



What part of the island did work on.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 14, 2007)

well that's good news...though i do like windfirming better....less climbing and more grappling from tree to tree...to answer your question buzz, though i don't know alot of fallinfg outfits, i know of fedgie & gunnerson, SSH (who i work for), colson, glm, afo, aggressive falling....mmm i know there's more but i can't think of them...gavin probably knows more...what company do you work for gavin? where have you been laying out blocks? I know we (SSH) are stemming in lockburough inlet right now...though our crew is windfirming up around sayward...


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## clearance (Apr 14, 2007)

Buzz 880 said:


> I have a video from one of the heli loggers out there it shows some guys jigging out there.But I have climbed lots of trees here in Ontario even some pretty big white pine but I was in BC last spring checked out some of the timber out there those tree's are pretty f..cking big don't think that jigging would be for me.Do you now of any falling contractors on vancouver island.Really thinking about a change unless the price of timber get's better here.



I thought I had climbed some big trees, then I went to the Charlottes! There is some bigass trees on the Q.C.I. Hard to climb at first but you get used to it, you can do it. Gots to say, jigging is a lot different from falling, there is falling, then there is falling. Some of that big, decadent old growth is pretty intimidating stuff, it made me wonder just climbing it. About being out in the bush though, beats the snot outta working around citzens. You can pretty much do what you want, no one to complain about what you are doing, its peacefull, its good.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 14, 2007)

that's where the old grapple or claw as its called comes in handy....specially with some of those marmed out cedars that r frickin' almost square! Just climb a nice tree beside it...tie in, chuck the claw into the big ass tree, tighten up the claw line with the ascender and swing over...hope you don't get a clawback (when the limb its hooked on breaks) or you don't get stuck out in no man's land.... still it beats the ???? outta climbing the skak.... nice in the second growth too... christ you can almost pull the two trees together!


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## gavin (Apr 17, 2007)

1I'dJak said:


> ...what company do you work for gavin? where have you been laying out blocks?



i used to work for IFMI. pretty much all of the stemming i laid out was in the cowichan woodlands. laid out a bunch in dent creek, bear creek, lots on the san juan river...reeeaaal nice wood on the san juan. did a bit in the nanaimo lakes area. some on the east side of lake cowichan. basically all my work was on the south island. right now i'm going to school and hating every minute of it....i'm going to fail a final exam that starts in 5 and a half hours. just finished my last minute studying and realized how screwed i am. i don't think i'm going to go back to school next year....gonna do forest fire fighting again this summer, then work and save up for the falling course which i hope to take early in 2008 (because i won't be able to make course before the snow flies because of other stuff i gotta do). i basically figure the falling course will end up costing me around $25,000. i'm gonna have to sell my car and my motorbike that i just bought a few months ago (that makes me mad) and add in money to buy a reliable truck, pay for living expenses, the course itself ($10,000). i have a husky 394 right now with a few bars, so i'll need at least one more saw...the saw i have now is pretty old so i might need 2 new saws. i have most of the gear i need: caulks, bucking pants, radio, all that stuff, but i'll have buy a few other randoms and logging gear sure ain't cheap. one thing i noticed about the course is it says saws will be provided to use for the course, but i figure it would make more sense if they dropped the price a bit and said get your own saw...then at least you have a good saw for when you start out...oh well. it also says to talk to logging outfits before taking the course and get a job lined up, so i'm gonna talk to the people i know that are fallers, riggers, etc. i figure at one point i'd like to take the log scaling course too, because even though scaling 10-12hours/day in a sort would be boring as hell i know a scaler that does QC on the hill and said its good...i figure it would give me better employability. but thats another 4000 or more to do that course, so thats something to do a few years down the road. k i just realized i'm rambling on pretty bad...if anybody has read this far...

got another question...most guys contract themselves out as individual fallers, does anybody know what kind of WCB rates they gotta pay? because i was told that even though it sounds like you're making money hand over fist, there's a lot of expenses to cover when you contract yourself out...and that you also pay your own benefits...

and 1 i'd jack, i also have thought about getting into climbing. i know a guy that climbs but haven't talked to him in a while. you figure it would be possible to get trained up as a climber on off days from falling? i'm not afraid of heights, but i heard climbing beats the crap out of your knees worse than damn near any other job.

oh yeah and as for other logging outfits...whoever was asking...i know of on the island...umm hayes, munns, island pacific logging...those are all pretty big ones. its late and i can't think of any other ones off the top of my head right now.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 19, 2007)

i, like the fallers, contract myself out as well...you pay into your own personal compo...the rates are adjusted to industry....i'm doing it as tree service, but i think manual falling and bucking rates are on par...maybe even lower...basically how much coverage you want determines how much you pay... right now i'm covered for the minimum...which is $1500.00 per month... sh1t ????? all! is should boost it up...this ends up costing me close to $500 per three months... but i should boost it up and get some life insurance too... then as a business you have to pay into your cpp as well and no more winter UI ski team! However, many fallers and climbers go thru a setup called BC Fallers run by a woman in Powell River...she does all the ???? for you...invoicing the companies, taking off taxes, paying into your compo etc...she even gives out advances...she might be one to talk to when getting your certificate...i think companies looking for fallers give her a call for a list of guys... as for the forest climbing, i've just started doing it last year and from my experience its kinda like how falling used to be...can you climb...here's the manual....this is how you stem....lets see you do it...ok you're hired... i started climbing for a tree service company then a friend set me up with SSH...other guys worked as groundman for the stemming outfits and gradually got trained to climb on the job...there once was a course offered to certify forestry climbers, but no longer....if you're going to school and need some cash, give local tree services a call...they often are looking for guys who can run saw and work hard....and the guy i worked for didn't want to climb anymore so he sent me up one asap...the old school way! as for the knees it varies....climbing is rough on them, especially stemming cuz you're climbing quite a bit...and often walking around with your spurs on...however, windfirming, which i prefer, you do less climbing cuz your working your claw and swinging from tree to tree... sometimes you only have to climb (from the bottom) a few trees in a day...a guy i windfirm with, used to fall and says its easier than packing a big ass saw around heli blocks...however his motto is: Homie don't stem!


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## clearance (Apr 19, 2007)

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...uation.pdf+swanson+humbolt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2 Gavin check this out, this is it. Jak, the WCB thing is the biggest scam ever, I pay $256 a month for $2500 coverage, actually 90% of 75% of $2500. So like about $1800. 10.24%. And they get to fine me, or my estate if I do something "wrong", awesome. I kind of miss windfirming , sure had to remember stuff when I started climbing around houses again, like you can't just let 'er rip, or pull out the spitting rodent whenever, or yell and curse, or just leave the keys in the truck and so on.


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## gavin (Apr 19, 2007)

thanks for the link clearance, and thanks for the info 1i'djak. i've seen a copy of the test evaluation before but as i remember it wasn't as comprehensive, so this is definately good to see. jak, did i understand you right that you can't collect UI when you're out of work for a while and contract yourself out? aaahhh that sucks. but on the positive side you get to take tax deductions don't you? like write off your truck and a certain number of km's, and write off your gear and stuff?

thanks again for all the info. 1 exam down, 3 to go...i've only got a few shreds of sanity left from all this studying. i definately wasn't born to work inside.


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## gavin (Apr 21, 2007)

just found it here: http://www.worksafebc.com/regulation_and_policy/published_policy/assets/pdf/rate_list_2007.pdf

base rate for fallers is $9.46 per $100 of income. highway robbery.


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## clearance (Apr 21, 2007)

gavin said:


> just found it here: http://www.worksafebc.com/regulation_and_policy/published_policy/assets/pdf/rate_list_2007.pdf
> 
> base rate for fallers is $9.46 per $100 of income. highway robbery.



I am paying $10.24 per $100, to climb, thieving bastards, just don't get hurt, then you'll find out how much they care.


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## gavin (Apr 21, 2007)

yeah no doubt. i'd rather squirrel that money away on my own in case i got hurt. i checked out old rates, and even after the new training standard, which includes a $10,000 course, the rates have gone up. basically what that says to me is that they don't think the new training standard will actually affect injuries.


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