# cypress knees and foundation damage



## priest

This week two clients have asked me if the Baldcypress trees in their yards will cause damage to their foundations. 
Apparently, the rumor is they will. Of course, I have my doubts. 
The way I understand it is that the knees are either used for oxygen exchange, erosion control, or both. But I also understand that their true purpose is not truly understood.
Not much oxygen or erosion potential under a house.
Any thoughts or experiences?

Thanks


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

It depends; if the slab is made poorly then roots can get in and exacerbate existing cracks.

Proximity is also a big factor.

As you infer, free O2 is the biggest limiting factor, so a properly engineered slab will usually inhibit root growth.

That all said, I'm not all that familliar with cypress. I've only worked on a few. They are adapted to low O2 soils, so they could be more likely toe effect marginally well built concrete structures.

The argument against it is that trees grow by putting cells on a layer at a time. it does not take much mass to confound the process and cause the root to flatten and spread out.

Now, Mario and I have had more then a few discussions on the subject her, being that his experiance with trees in the PNW have heaved many a slab.


Though one can see why a person would be concerned


----------



## treeseer

If ever there is concern about foundation damage, one simply needs to dig a trench and prune the potentially offending roots.

i agree w jps; roots areusually deflected from houses.


----------



## TreeTopKid

We removed one last year that was actually very close (about 3ft) to a garage that was built on it's own foundation. There weren't to many knees because it was fairly high and dry but it had a couple of flat knees that looked like they were from the same root that had just grown against the concrete which had flattened them out on one side. I removed them with and axe and a graft, and there seemed to be no damage whatsoever.

I would have thought the drains to be more of an issue with Bald Cypress if they were planted somewhere dry.


----------



## priest

Thanks for the replies.

I'm sure the client would be up for the root pruning, as she loves her trees. 

The Baldcypress is a good 20 feet from the foundation, and she is in a creek bottomland, so conditions are favorable for the tree.

Treeseer, what depth would you trench to in this situation, how far from the foundation, and how soon should you expect to have to root prune again? I know it depends on the conditions, and I would guess every 3 or 4 years would make sense.

Thanks.


----------



## treeseer

Without knowing grade and soil type etc and w no pics we are shooting in the dark. 

"what depth would you trench to in this situation, 

2' should be plenty

"how far from the foundation

2-3' should be plenty

"and how soon should you expect to have to root prune again?...I would guess every 3 or 4 years 

yup


----------



## Rick99g

When I came across these posts, I could not help myself but to reply and CORRECT the record. For anyone who thinks these are great trees to have around your home, perhaps you'd like to pitch in to pay for my $4700 bill to take 4 of these MONSTERS down! Part of the reason I purchased my home is because I thought it looked beautiful with these trees in the yard. Well after 4 years living here and the PROBLEMS they give me, I just forked over the nearly $5000 to get rid of half of them. The other half will be done in 2 years when I recover from this expenditure.

Baloney they dont do damage......they do PLENTY! These trees are between 10 - 15 feet away from the home. Those roots are like caterpiller tractors. They may not damage the foundation itself but they travel around the foundation and lift everything in their path.....A/C slab, patio slab, even my driveway concrete slap and 1000 pound steel security gate, lifting it 6 inches out of the ground despite being encased in concrete. In addition they have cracked my PVC sewer line just under the home on one side and I had to dig it up and replace it.

"Just trim them" you say? Seriously? Have you ever tried that? They produce all sorts of roots, shooting off the knees and going every which way. Last summer I dug a hole for a small 6' fish pond, 3 foot deep and it took me 2 days because of all the arm sized roots running every which way. I had to use a reciprocating saw to cut my way through them.

As for the knees, my neighbor is always complaining, they travel into her yard and she told me 3 years ago it cost her a $1000 to cut down all the knees, and she had to because the lawn cutting people said they couldnt cut the grass any more because of them. They make a terrible mess of the lawn. Finally my case for NEVER planing these is to the ongoing cleanup. As my brother calls them "weak" trees, every storm, even small ones leaves branches and leaves all over the place....its a continual mess, especially in the fall where it covers my roof where I have to go up and sweep the mounds from the valleys and then discard huge heaps. Recently I switched insurance companies and when they inspected I was told that I had to remove the organic material from my roof before they could write the policy. OK but the trees are continually shedding. Not to mention the HUGE limbs that come crashing down in larger storms. So much so that I am always cautious walking under them when I go out in the morning when there is a storm. They are also lightning magnets, one was destroyed by lightning and cost me 400$ to remove it afterwards. Another was hit and a large limb came off breaking my fence. During a hurricane here, a 20 foot top of the tree came off and planted itself in my neighbors roof! Since then my wife has been fearful of these trees and the drum beat began to get rid of them.

You bet I hate these trees now with every fiber in my body. I put in a pool this year, and after 3 months I finally realized that there is NO WAY I can enjoy this pool without TONS of maintenance. Even when covered with a pool cover, the wind blows in the "leaves" where it then enters the water and the tiny needles come off creating a very nice soup in the pool which takes a tremendous effort to clean. Even though the trees are at least 30 - 40 feet from the pool, there is no preventing this because the trees are at least 40 - 60 feet high and they simply blow a good distance. These trees were planted by the builder approximately 30 years ago....so I wouldnt exactly call them slow growing.

I've done a lot of exterior work, so I am protecting my investment by cutting these down and replacing them with smaller less maintenance trees.

My opinion, unless you live in the country and keep them FAR away from the home, DONT PLANT THESE.


----------



## BC WetCoast

He spent $200K+ on a house with cypress trees and didn't do any research on how cypress trees grew. Now he's whining about it. Troll.


----------



## Rick99g

BC WetCoast said:


> He spent $200K+ on a house with cypress trees and didn't do any research on how cypress trees grew. Now he's whining about it. Troll.


Troll? Who are you calling a Troll. I gave my feedback on what others commented on. "200K on a house".....sorry, but I'm way above your "pay grade"... I spent over a half million and don't have time to deal with asking questions about trees. And that's over 500k US dollars, not Canadian .75 dollar cartoon money. I thought this was a "professional" forum....seems that it's patrolled by immature clowns. I thought some would enjoy the humor of the situation and take some informative data back. Didn't realize it was a site for insulting contributions.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Rick99g said:


> Troll? I thought this was a "professional" forum....seems that it's patrolled by immature clowns. I thought some would enjoy the humor of the situation and take some informative data back. Didn't realize it was a site for insulting contributions.



It is a professional forum, which means you are not a 'professional',,
you are a home owner jumping in here when you should have been smart enough and above our pay grade to know to go to the 'homeowner forum or 101',, 
So you are stupid and a 'troll',,,and your thin is so thin you should probably go cry,,,
Jeff


----------



## Green Memphis

BC WetCoast said:


> He spent $200K+ on a house with cypress trees and didn't do any research on how cypress trees grew. Now he's whining about it. Troll.



Rude and uncalled for! I found him info rather helpful. Clearly, we just aren't all as astute as you! *cue eye roll

(And yes, I know this is an old thread. It still pulled up on my google search though.)


----------



## Green Memphis

Rick99g said:


> Troll? Who are you calling a Troll. I gave my feedback on what others commented on. "200K on a house".....sorry, but I'm way above your "pay grade"... I spent over a half million and don't have time to deal with asking questions about trees. And that's over 500k US dollars, not Canadian .75 dollar cartoon money. I thought this was a "professional" forum....seems that it's patrolled by immature clowns. I thought some would enjoy the humor of the situation and take some informative data back. Didn't realize it was a site for insulting contributions.



SOME of us out here DO appreciate your feedback. Ignore the haters.


----------



## Green Memphis

Rick99g said:


> When I came across these posts, I could not help myself but to reply and CORRECT the record. For anyone who thinks these are great trees to have around your home, perhaps you'd like to pitch in to pay for my $4700 bill to take 4 of these MONSTERS down! Part of the reason I purchased my home is because I thought it looked beautiful with these trees in the yard. Well after 4 years living here and the PROBLEMS they give me, I just forked over the nearly $5000 to get rid of half of them. The other half will be done in 2 years when I recover from this expenditure.
> 
> Baloney they dont do damage......they do PLENTY! These trees are between 10 - 15 feet away from the home. Those roots are like caterpiller tractors. They may not damage the foundation itself but they travel around the foundation and lift everything in their path.....A/C slab, patio slab, even my driveway concrete slap and 1000 pound steel security gate, lifting it 6 inches out of the ground despite being encased in concrete. In addition they have cracked my PVC sewer line just under the home on one side and I had to dig it up and replace it.
> 
> "Just trim them" you say? Seriously? Have you ever tried that? They produce all sorts of roots, shooting off the knees and going every which way. Last summer I dug a hole for a small 6' fish pond, 3 foot deep and it took me 2 days because of all the arm sized roots running every which way. I had to use a reciprocating saw to cut my way through them.
> 
> As for the knees, my neighbor is always complaining, they travel into her yard and she told me 3 years ago it cost her a $1000 to cut down all the knees, and she had to because the lawn cutting people said they couldnt cut the grass any more because of them. They make a terrible mess of the lawn. Finally my case for NEVER planing these is to the ongoing cleanup. As my brother calls them "weak" trees, every storm, even small ones leaves branches and leaves all over the place....its a continual mess, especially in the fall where it covers my roof where I have to go up and sweep the mounds from the valleys and then discard huge heaps. Recently I switched insurance companies and when they inspected I was told that I had to remove the organic material from my roof before they could write the policy. OK but the trees are continually shedding. Not to mention the HUGE limbs that come crashing down in larger storms. So much so that I am always cautious walking under them when I go out in the morning when there is a storm. They are also lightning magnets, one was destroyed by lightning and cost me 400$ to remove it afterwards. Another was hit and a large limb came off breaking my fence. During a hurricane here, a 20 foot top of the tree came off and planted itself in my neighbors roof! Since then my wife has been fearful of these trees and the drum beat began to get rid of them.
> 
> You bet I hate these trees now with every fiber in my body. I put in a pool this year, and after 3 months I finally realized that there is NO WAY I can enjoy this pool without TONS of maintenance. Even when covered with a pool cover, the wind blows in the "leaves" where it then enters the water and the tiny needles come off creating a very nice soup in the pool which takes a tremendous effort to clean. Even though the trees are at least 30 - 40 feet from the pool, there is no preventing this because the trees are at least 40 - 60 feet high and they simply blow a good distance. These trees were planted by the builder approximately 30 years ago....so I wouldnt exactly call them slow growing.
> 
> I've done a lot of exterior work, so I am protecting my investment by cutting these down and replacing them with smaller less maintenance trees.
> 
> My opinion, unless you live in the country and keep them FAR away from the home, DONT PLANT THESE.



I completely agree and have dealt with many of the same issues as you! And we only had one! We got it cut down, but now I'm trying to figure out how to kill off the roots and remove the hundreds of "knees" sticking up out of the ground. Ours was 65' tall and was only 25 years old.


----------



## BC WetCoast

If you were a pro, you would know what to do. Whining homeowners have their own forum.


----------



## jefflovstrom

BC WetCoast said:


> If you were a pro, you would know what to do. Whining homeowners have their own forum.



Ouch!
Jeff


----------



## Green Memphis

BC WetCoast said:


> If you were a pro, you would know what to do. Whining homeowners have their own forum.


 
Seriously?!? You know EVERYTHING?!? Must be nice to be you. Again withthe rudeness... grow up.


----------



## sandpiper

Thanks for the post Green Memphis. I too came across this article from a google search while researching Bald Cypress trees. The post by Rick99g was enlightening along with the fact that you experienced some of the same issues. I was thinking of planting one of these trees in my yard but the root system that you two have experienced is much more aggressive than what I'm prepared to deal with. I hadn't thought of the knees protruding across other people's yards. Yikes. 

Disregard these negative comments but their hilarious. Especially Jethro who thinks if you were a pro you would know what to do despite the fact that the OP didn't either. All the other advice offered by the "pros" was too generic and can be applied to any tree. At least you two described experience with this species.


----------



## Tim ulmer

I dunno what all the name calling and limb measuring is about , but as a guy who's done both tree work and contracting I can tell you this ..live tree roots (any tree) are just about concretes only natural enemy ..if you got live roots growing under your slab driveway etc , and you don't have problems , just wait you will ..remember I said that. I've seen too many cracked foundations and busted up driveways for the "lack of oxygen" thing to be true , at least when it comes to concrete..plant a cypress if you live by a pond


----------



## treeseer

Pruning branches is commonly done; why don't people think about pruning roots?


----------



## JeffGu

Bald Cypress knees act as pneumatophores, and are a reactive structure resulting when the roots are submerged or in low-O2 environments (certain soil structures, etc.) as noted in the past by ecomorphological observations, and more recently, by research. Noting that they can lift concrete slabs does not indicate otherwise... in fact, quite the opposite. The tree has no sensory organs or neurological function to analyze data, it merely sends out roots and is biochemically reactive to the environment it discovers... more of what it needs, it reacts by increasing root growth in that area, less of what it needs, it keeps sending the existing root out further. The low-O2 environment under the slab can trigger the production of the knees, which in turn causes the slab to rise and crack.

In good soils, and without constant flooding or "wet feet", the trees don't produce the knees. For example, here in Nebraska, they only do it when they're near creeks and rivers and in the flood plain that is subject to frequent flooding. Despite what people think, they tolerate flooding but look their best when they're not living in those conditions. They are also surprisingly drought tolerant. In the three drought years we had here, beginning in 2012, our Bald Cypress trees all survived with no lasting ill effects. Their growth was slow those years, but that's it. The trees were not irrigated and relied entirely on available rainfall.

The trees are beautiful, and very tolerant of a variety of conditions and soils. Unfortunetly, people plant them without considering what impact the soil and conditions will have on the tree's growth. The tree is not evil, the guy who planted it without researching the trees first is at fault. In this area, both the parks and the golf courses plant them extensively, without any problems with the knees.


----------



## irishjuanita

Rick99g said:


> When I came across these posts, I could not help myself but to reply and CORRECT the record. For anyone who thinks these are great trees to have around your home, perhaps you'd like to pitch in to pay for my $4700 bill to take 4 of these MONSTERS down! Part of the reason I purchased my home is because I thought it looked beautiful with these trees in the yard. Well after 4 years living here and the PROBLEMS they give me, I just forked over the nearly $5000 to get rid of half of them. The other half will be done in 2 years when I recover from this expenditure.
> 
> Baloney they dont do damage......they do PLENTY! These trees are between 10 - 15 feet away from the home. Those roots are like caterpiller tractors. They may not damage the foundation itself but they travel around the foundation and lift everything in their path.....A/C slab, patio slab, even my driveway concrete slap and 1000 pound steel security gate, lifting it 6 inches out of the ground despite being encased in concrete. In addition they have cracked my PVC sewer line just under the home on one side and I had to dig it up and replace it.
> 
> "Just trim them" you say? Seriously? Have you ever tried that? They produce all sorts of roots, shooting off the knees and going every which way. Last summer I dug a hole for a small 6' fish pond, 3 foot deep and it took me 2 days because of all the arm sized roots running every which way. I had to use a reciprocating saw to cut my way through them.
> 
> As for the knees, my neighbor is always complaining, they travel into her yard and she told me 3 years ago it cost her a $1000 to cut down all the knees, and she had to because the lawn cutting people said they couldnt cut the grass any more because of them. They make a terrible mess of the lawn. Finally my case for NEVER planing these is to the ongoing cleanup. As my brother calls them "weak" trees, every storm, even small ones leaves branches and leaves all over the place....its a continual mess, especially in the fall where it covers my roof where I have to go up and sweep the mounds from the valleys and then discard huge heaps. Recently I switched insurance companies and when they inspected I was told that I had to remove the organic material from my roof before they could write the policy. OK but the trees are continually shedding. Not to mention the HUGE limbs that come crashing down in larger storms. So much so that I am always cautious walking under them when I go out in the morning when there is a storm. They are also lightning magnets, one was destroyed by lightning and cost me 400$ to remove it afterwards. Another was hit and a large limb came off breaking my fence. During a hurricane here, a 20 foot top of the tree came off and planted itself in my neighbors roof! Since then my wife has been fearful of these trees and the drum beat began to get rid of them.
> 
> You bet I hate these trees now with every fiber in my body. I put in a pool this year, and after 3 months I finally realized that there is NO WAY I can enjoy this pool without TONS of maintenance. Even when covered with a pool cover, the wind blows in the "leaves" where it then enters the water and the tiny needles come off creating a very nice soup in the pool which takes a tremendous effort to clean. Even though the trees are at least 30 - 40 feet from the pool, there is no preventing this because the trees are at least 40 - 60 feet high and they simply blow a good distance. These trees were planted by the builder approximately 30 years ago....so I wouldnt exactly call them slow growing.
> 
> I've done a lot of exterior work, so I am protecting my investment by cutting these down and replacing them with smaller less maintenance trees.
> 
> My opinion, unless you live in the country and keep them FAR away from the home, DONT PLANT THESE.


Bald Cypress Trees belong in a swamp!!! My next door neighbor has one and removed the root barrier in between our front yards (after they had bought the house from the previous owner). Within 4 years the roots of that tree had sprawled all over my front and back yard (we have a pool). My yard guy and I spent one whole day cutting out the roots..with an axe. We filled 4 garbage bags with knees. I asked my neighbor to please re-install the root barrier...she said no because it was too hard to mow around. Now 8 years later the knees are under my house foundation, across my yard and under my driveway and my other neighbors driveway, the knees also are in the back yard and under the pool surround. The root broke my pool drain pipe and filled it up with roots and the street end had a knee growing out of it. I have repeatedly asked them to take care of their tree knees and clean up my yard since they will not replace the root barrier. My neighbor told me "It's not my problem because they are on your property". What an SOB. Now I will try and find someone who will help us get rid of this mess. Thought about a lawsuit and talked to some lawyers and they told me that I have a good case because the roots are trespassing on my property. The thing is we are retired and do not have the money or time to start a lawsuit. (lawsuits can take up to 10 years to settle). What to do?? What to do?? So I completely agree with Rick99g. Unless you have a root barrier installed that is deep enough to keep the roots contained DO NOT PLANT THESE TREES ON YOUR PROPERTY!!! Heaven knows how much this will cost to get our yard back.


----------

