# Some sawing, logging and skidding pics and videos ......



## Slamm

A lot are picked up now, but there were 2.5 rows of logs from here to that house. I don't have the exact count now, but it was over 200+ that Karen and I bucked up on Wednesday. We had already bucked up another 100ish the week before. Out of that 100 there were 51 veneer logs. I'm not sure what the timber buyer got out of this set. Its about 90% white oak and the rest Red Oak and Hickory and Hard Maple.










My ole' trusty 441 eating a log:










Good cutting makes for easier skidding:





Karen with the 361. She a real worker, and runs the grapple skidder pretty good. We bucked up logs pretty much non-stop for 8-9 hours, she never slowed down and only got pinched about 5 times:













There is a 8 image limit per post ..... so next..........


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## Slamm

Knocking Spurs off:






This was a bad leaner that was growing out at an angle already:





We run a 540B Grapple (Karen's Skidder) and I usually run the 540B Cable Skidder:









Here is a video of some tree getting pulled out with the Cable Skidder:




Here is me running that log, my girls like to see videos of dumb logging stuff, so Karen wanted me to run down the log and back:




This is just me wedging a tree over:




Thats it for now,

Sam


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## Kwdog75

Very cool! Wish my wife would want to use a saw, she only wants to drive the quad back with a load of wood behind it. Guess we can't all be so lucky!


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## mdavlee

Nice pictures and videos. That's cool you got a wife that will run equipment and saws with you.


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## mweba

Thanks for the pics and vid. Beautiful country.


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## chopperfreak2k1

thanks for sharing brother! great pix and even better vids!!! love to see more if you got 'em. rep sent.


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## Brian VT

Looks like she earns her 1/2 !  I hope the buyer treats you well.
Good pics/vids. Thank you !
I love the look of hickory. I wish we could do our kitchen cabinets with it but it's too "squirrely" for my wife's taste.


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## pioneerguy600

Thanks for posting the picts and vid. That is some nice wood you are cutting in, hope you did well on the job. I can tell your wife can handle herself and her saw. I have worked around a couple women in the woods that could do as much as any big man and they still look like a women.
Pioneerguy600


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## forestryworks

Looks like fun.


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## deeker

Looking good!!! Lots of work.

And your "partner" is a lot better looking than the hairy faced smelly people I have working with me.

Keep the pics coming!!

Kevin


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## schmuck.k

looks like some fun work


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## alderman

Very good pics. Looks like a good day and some very good looking wood.


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## Stihlman441

Thanks for sharing,great pics and videos keep them coming.Does the misses cook and clean as well as she works,if so your are on a good thing,does she have a sister ?. ha ha
I noticed you have a GB Titanium bar on the 441 how is it holding up,they are almost all i use and find um great.
Work can be hard at times but if its fun as well life is good.


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## Slamm

Thank you, guys for the good words.

Yes, Karen cooks very good. In 19 years she has only cooked about 2-3 meals that I couldn't/wouldn't eat, and we were trying something new and it just didn't work, LOL.

The GB bar is actually kinda wore out, but its the only bar that I can close the rails on, because I have about 10 stihl bars that are kinda wore and the bar rail closer that I have won't budge the rails. It barely moves the GB rails, but yes, I love the GB bars, in fact GB and Stihl are the only bars that I will use, and I have no use for any other. I got a good deal on several Stihl bars and thats about all I have been using for awhile, this GB was sitting on a nail hasn't been used in about 1 year.

I did finally blow a tip sprocket up on a 28" GB bar about 1 or 2 weeks ago. First tip I've blown up on a GB bar, but it has been used on/off for 4ish years.

I think the GB bars are the only thing next to Stihl in quality for the money. I have a Cannon 36", but I don't use it enough to give a testimony on that, I just assume they are very, very good, LOL.

I use Stihl Semi-Chisel Full Skip for everything falling and bucking up, and 20" bars on up. This last job with hard dry hill hickory and hard maple has really proved to me that it is the only type that I want to use. I tried Carlton Semi-Chisel-Full-Skip and had two saws with 20" bars running a loop of Carlton and Stihl and the Carlton was easily sharpened 4-5x's more than the Stihl and that is a very conservative figure.

I tried full comp and full skip chisel chain in both, Carlton and Stihl and while the Stihl was again better than the Carlton, I just couldn't keep the sharp tips on the full chisel teeth, and I would end up with more of a semi-catastrophic failure, as in a crooked cutting that had to be fixed, as apposed to a semi-chisel that would just get a little dull, but then one or two strokes of the file and it was back working hard again, and for many, many trees. I'm really at a point with the full chisel that I don't see the point in it. I agree it cuts slightly faster, typically the "computer video races" show its about 1 second per cut faster, but it fails at much faster rate and it takes a lot more filling or grinding to recover a quality, useable edge that you end up just becoming an expert at hogging out a chain's tooth with a file, instead of cutting. An amish guy that I worked for use to say that semi-chisel works pretty good dull, because it starts out partially dull to begin with, LOL. Again, I agree it might be a second slower on cutting, but the overall chain lasts much longer and you don't suffer the larger losses of life when the tooth edge "falls off" in the harder woods like Hickory and Hard Maple or dirty wood at the landing after you have skidded the logs through the mud/dirt.

Karen ran a brand new Stihl chain bucking up dirty/dusty and some muddy logs for 8-9 hours and I only sharpened her chain 5 times ...... I keep track of these things.

I assume all of the above has no bearings on those that cut soft wood, LOL.

Around here you have to cut the trees off within about 6" of the ground or you won't work very long, on side hills you are very likely to be subterranean on the high side of the stump and then plunge cut down into the growth ring to "release the tree" on the backside. I believe I have read on here where some guys keep crappy chains around for "stumping" ......well, thats all I do all day is "stump" trees off, and in those conditions full chisel just isn't very efficient ............in my opinion, based on my research, LOL.

Below is me cutting a tree loose and it is some form of failure in placement. I don't remember how .... I think it needed to be more to the right, but it really wanted to go hard to the left.




Below is a partial failure.... I had notched it to go away from the camera and down the hill, but it ended up falling right where it wanted to anyways, to the hard left, LOL. I wanted it to go down the hill so the skidder wouldn't have to climb the hill to get it (there are rocky bluff's and harder to get to), if I drop it down the hill Karen can grab the top and go, but then she has to grab the top which isn't so good for dragging, "bassactwards". As it obviously ended up the tree fell to the left, like it wanted to do anyways, so now I will grab it with the cable skidder and pull it to the right by the butt, which will end up making it easier to drag up the next hill, so I couldn't really loose either way on this one, but overall it was a failure on placement, but these things happen, LOL......... It's just that on the last 300ish trees it seems I video all of the failures, LOL.




Here is my little logging trailer, the front holds my ATV with little side racks that hold the tires from wanting to roll off, once its loaded, since the ATV is longer than the 4 foot wide trailer. The gray painted L-shaped tank holds my diesel for my skidders. The gray box on it, holds the tools for the skidder's maintanence/repair/upkeep. The Aluminum Box in the back, opens down and makes a nice "tray" to hold or work on or prep saws for work. It balances pretty good that you can lift it by hand and it pulls around with the ATV that rides on it.









Later,

Sam


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## T_F_E

Great work bud! You sure know how to cut low stumps


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## Beefie

Thanks for the pics and the vids Sam. It looks like you have a good working partner,wife,chainsaw buddy, etc. It is always easier to work in the woods when its not just you. 2 people makes the day go buy so much better.

Keep the pics and vids coming.

Beefie


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## Stihlman441

Thanks for the run down on your chain choose and findings in your type of wood and conditions.I am almost total opposite to you that most of my work is clean green sugar,spotted gum,stringybark,peppermint and messmate where i use chisel chains and only go to semi chisel when the trees are dry and harder.I use Charlton and Stihl brands,what ever is cheaper at the time i need new ones.
Pics of some of my latest jogs in the clean green wood.


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## Slamm

Here are some more random pics:

Pulling some decent logs, notice the wonderful blue tint of the skidder cable. That is the Amsteel Blue synthetic "rope". It is 3/4" thick and I will never use steel cable on a cable skidder again, because of this stuff, it is so light and strong and makes cable skidder work much more fun now. I think a whole length of 130' weighs like 8 pounds or something:





Some stacked logs, as I'm coming into the landing. To give you a perspective on the size of the logs that are stacked. The tires on the loader are 23x26's ...... they are big:









Skidding in the pouring rain and the sun is shining hard. I think you can see the huge rain drops coming down in the photo:





Best looking skidder driver that I've found LOL. She is covered in dust, she ran the grapple skidder for several hours, pulling out staged logs that day.


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## leeha

Nice pic's.
Looks like some really nice wood.
Your a very lucky guy to have a girl
like Karen. Wish i had a girl who would
work like that.



Lee


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## Slamm

Here are somemore pics:

The machines:





Long Cottonwood:





Large trees, some in the front are just the top half:





Various working pics:













Photo of my glorious 3/4" Amsteel still on the spool. That red ring on the left is what is used for the sliders to but up against at the end of the cable. It makes for a great handle for pulling the cable out.





Video of dropping of a top at the landing. My buddy Aden is driving the grapple here:


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## Turkeyslayer

Nice pics, and some nice timber  
How well does that Amsteel cable hold up to abrasion vs. regular swedged cable??


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## chopperfreak2k1

awesome pix and vid! don't be afraid to show us more!















:agree2:


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## JustinM

Kwdog75 said:


> Very cool! Wish my wife would want to use a saw, she only wants to drive the quad back with a load of wood behind it. Guess we can't all be so lucky!



Haha! EXACT same thing at my place


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## Slamm

Here is a video of me dropping a tree yesterday. It had a slight lean to the left but a branch to the right. I wanted it to go left, and it sat on my saw so out came the wedges.




Some stumps and butts from yesterday:



















This one had fence wire in it, so I had to high cut it, to get out of the wire. It was at the edge of a steep dip into a creek. So I put the face on the bottom to get it down the hill faster so it wouldn't bust up.









Karen and I will be skidding these out today. Will try to get something of that.

Later,

Sam


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## Slamm

Here is another one:









Later for the day,

Sam


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## Cedarkerf

Great pics and narrative


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## chopperfreak2k1

Cedarkerf said:


> Great pics and narrative



:agree2:


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## o8f150

neat pics,,wish we had a skidder to use,,,my wife is always ready to cut wood


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## the westspartan

Nice pics and videos! I tried to rep you but I have to spread it around.


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## Slamm

The landing this morning:









Karen skid this amount out in about 1 hour, I'll try and take a pic of the landing full in the morning. I think we pulled out about 60+ trees today.






Finally broke the Amsteel Skidder Rope. Here is photo'd everything you need to splice a new end, it goes together in about 4 mins tops. Karen skid one tree out in the time it tooks me to repair the end and take a couple of pics:






When it does finally break this is about how much you "loose". Its about 3 feet, because there is rope inside that rope, so to speak:





Here is a video of me pulling the large Red Oak that broke the cable. This amsteel has lasted a very long time and pulled around 500-600 trees before finally now breaking ...... and it was abused on this large tree. I had to hook my blade onto smaller trees to keep the frontend down and get enough "traction" to pull it up the hill:





Karen running the Grapple Skidder up a hill, I had just backed up to one tree and am going to hook that one and the hickory that is hung up in the distance. I will pull that hickory down and then pull both trees to the landing.





Here is a video of me following Karen out with some trees in tow. The truckers are here picking up two trailer loads of wood. One truck has a "picker" on it an he loades the other trailer:





That is what we did today,

Sam


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## Slamm

Here is a decent sized Poplar that I cut.




Here is video of some minor inconviences that from time to time happen in logging. I will explain, the tree was already leaning in the direction that was fine for falling, which was away from the camera. I used a 660BB/28" bar and cut through both sides, and cut the spurr off in the back (facing the camera). I figured this tree would just fall over as usual and didn't get the camera out until it just sat there for several minutes swaying in the breeze and it wouldn't go over. My axe was back on the ATV about 4 trees away. Then I get redneck and try whacking the wedge with some local wood product.




This video is the end of the above video, and shows the felling cuts, for how I cut, I feel I left too, large of holding wood on the right side, and hinge is a little thick for a tree that already wanted to falling in the correct direction, but none the less, it went down. It would looked more professional had I had my axe to knock some wedges in quick and then move on, but it happens, LOL.




There are exactly 90 logs that needed to be cut up Thursday:
Here the timber buyer is marking the logs for where I need to cut them up.




Moving around clockwise is the landing. Those cutup logs are going for staves in barrels and the slow truckers haven't picked them up yet. They are all marked and tagged.




More tothe right, here is the beginning of a line of about 46 logs.




More of the 46 logs:




Another pile at six O'clock from the pile of logs, I'm standing on. I was already cutting on this pile. I cut most of these logs up with a 660BB and my modded 361. I smashed my 441 the day before and cracked the PTO side of the crankcase, handlebar and fuel tank.





8 image limit, have to start a new post..............


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## Slamm

Here is where we started for the day. Stan, the timber buyer, marks them. I cut them up. He stacks them where they need to go.





Here is a branch that split and was filled with very large wasps or hornets. The timber buyer thinks they are the ones that spread the oak disease that kills the white and red oaks. They are huge, but seem to be rather mild mannered since I haven't been stung yet and I have dropped three hives of them.





Here is some photos of the smashed 441. I was cutting a large red oak off, really low and cut the hing a little to thin. The tree sat on my saw and I couldn't get it off of it, and I couldn't get the scrench on the bar nuts, because the saw was basically scraping the ground, in the cut. I cut the holding wood with the 361 and it all when wrong. I pulled on the 441 as the tree went down, but it was pinched hard the whole way down, then it rolled over onto it. New parts from the dealer are in the $380 range, for Handle bar, fuel tank and PTO or right side crankcase. In two years the only way, this 441 has be taken out of comission is by two trees falling onto it, and both times it will still start right up and run, but the handlebar is as inappropriate angles to work. I'm going to get a new one ported up and wait for some better deals to come along for buying replacment parts on this saw.













Just that morning, I was telling Karen I wanted another 441 so I would have two, but this wasn't in my plan for how to get another one, LOL.

Sam


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## Slamm

Turkeyslayer said:


> Nice pics, and some nice timber
> How well does that Amsteel cable hold up to abrasion vs. regular swedged cable??



Sorry, slayer I didn't see your question:

Amsteel vs Swedged cable in the abrasion department only, would not win any battles, but if that was the only way you measured a skidder cable's ability to ease your life then I think you would be short changing the concept.

In a situation like a winch on a grapple skidder ...... like my 540B Grapple. I will probably always, use steel cable, because in the few instances that I do have to use the cable on the grapple skidder, the cable will be scraping against the grapple and it is not cost effictive per use.

But for a cable only skidder, it is wonderful. There is a study around:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~jnz6/Synro... Steel Wire and Synthetic Rope Winch Line.pdf

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/synthropeusepotentials.pdf

In these reports or studies, they expound on the benefits to the human body, as in less fatigue and such, and those attributes are great, but the real benefit from running Amsteel is to the skidder itself. You see the amsteel after it has been pulled and stretched a few times, has a few very nice benefits.

1. You can just drop logs of any size down and never worry about crow's nesting of the cable of any kind. This is because it is so light that the winch spool doesn't have enough inersia to keep on spinning, after the log is on the ground, or it doesn't have the spring that steel does. I don't believe in the spring part though, because when it breaks it is a little more exciting than a steel cable in my opinion.

2. This second benefit is directly related to the first one. When you get to your next log and pull out some cable to attached to the next log. When you start to pull you don't have to clutch the machine forward to take out the crows nest and relay the cable correctly, so as to not damage the steel cable. You see the Amsteel doesn't seem to care how it is sitting on the winch spool, and only maybe twice in 2 years have I had to hook it up to a tree and pull it loose, because it got stuck within itself, like steel will do if not properly respooled each time.

3. The above two benefits take a lot of stress and abuse off of the transmission and winch, either for dry runs of pulling forward to de-spool the cable and then respool it correctly, not to mention the time wasted for the above practices that must be adhered to with steel cable or your steel cable will be broken by the day's end, or seriously damaged and won't last the week.

4. Another thing is the practice of dropping the logs, by releasing the winch and then quickly re-engaging the winch brake to prevent the crows nesting. This re-application of the winch brake is completely not needed anymore, and that is with the drag set to complete free-spool, for easier pulling out of the cable.

Also it is extremely light, you can pull out 130 feet and hold the whole rope up level with your shoulder with one hand, with steel cable you can hold 40' up off the ground, LOL, so it just drags around behind you, through the woods.

Splicing this stuff is very easy, a little kid could do it. Just figure the first splice will take 1 hour and there will be cussing, while you read the directions and then the next splice will take about 15 minutes, and the next one 10 minutes and then about 5 or less minutes after that, and it is a peaceful operation. Not hammering some cable cutter that may or may not cutt it off in a few whacks. Then finding something to anchor the knot with and in and out of the skidder several times trying to get the anchor knot correct and tight, then trimming the excess steel cable off later.

If you buy 100' feet of Amsteel and damage the rope in the middle, you can just splice it and move on. With Steel cable, that cable is now half the length and you have just wasted 50+ feet of cable, because you can't do a mid-splice. With Amsteel you would have only lost about 4' .... just enough to splice it again.

That is why I like it, and I feel its benefits far, at weigh any negatives related to it.

My opinion,

Sam


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## chopperfreak2k1

awesome pix and vids! very much appreciated, thanks!


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## mowoodchopper

Awesome thread slamm! Beautiful place you have, nice operation too!

I agree with 100% on the semi chisel, we run a small tree service and 
cut alot of firewood, I used to use almost all chisel and have over the last yr switched to mostly semi chisel. We take down quite a few big elms and hack-berry etc and have to cut our stumps at ground level. The full chisel just 
is to much work, I can completely toast a full chisel chain in about 60 sec
on a big hard dirty stump, then it takes 30 mn to get it sharp enough to cut at all. The semi is much more forgiving and alot faster to sharpen.


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## Justsaws

Nice thread with great photos.


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## Slamm

mowoodchopper said:


> Awesome thread slamm! Beautiful place you have, nice operation too!
> 
> I agree with 100% on the semi chisel, we run a small tree service and
> cut alot of firewood, I used to use almost all chisel and have over the last yr switched to mostly semi chisel. We take down quite a few big elms and hack-berry etc and have to cut our stumps at ground level. The full chisel just
> is to much work, I can completely toast a full chisel chain in about 60 sec
> on a big hard dirty stump, then it takes 30 mn to get it sharp enough to cut at all. The semi is much more forgiving and alot faster to sharpen.



Yes, agreed, full chisel is like a roller coaster, it is really fast and really slow and not much stability inbetween. Possibly it works good for softwood cutters, but not oak, hickory and dirtyish wood or cutting low stumps.

I prefer system components that will be consistent and efficient and readiable long term, and I don't find that with Full Chisel, as when it get dull it just goes bad quickly and soon you have a crooked cutting chain or the sharp cutter edges are broken off and such. With Semi chisel, when it gets dull ...... it just cuts slower and slower, but it is quite gradual and consistent and readiable. If a loader on the landing or a skidder in the woods is breathing down your neck, then you can cut a few more cuts with semi and it won't ruin your day, it may not be the fastest at that point, but it will get through the log or tree ..... full chisel will just stop.... and for the one second extra speed you get from full chisel you end up with more sharpening and much shorter chain life (my findings).

Have a good one,

Sam


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## wigglesworth

Slamm said:


>



Man...you weren't lying. You killed it.


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## Slamm

wigglesworth said:


> Man...you weren't lying. You killed it.



Not to worry, Terry has another one at his dealer and it will be hopped up more than the last one. He is quite excited about it. He even spent my money on some Big Bore kit for a 441, so I guess that will go on one of them, after I get that/a parts saw to fix this one. I have been wanting two 441's, but I didn't really want to "have to" get the second one under these conditions.

I have that Brookport job pretty much sealed up now and two fast 441's will really be nice for that job. You will have to come up and slay 18-20" soft maples all day. Stan, says they are thick as the hair on a dogs back and very tall without limbs. It should be some fun, fast work. There is also some big river timber behind that Lock and Dam that we get to cut, 1/2 mile of it, you can see it from the bridge. Some trees will probably fall into the river and have to be pulled back out, I can see some biggin's from the bridge in there.

Later,

Sam


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## DHIBBS75

What part of western ky are you in???


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## Turkeyslayer

Good info on the rope vs. cable, thanks.


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## Modifiedmark

Slamm said:


> Yes, agreed, full chisel is like a roller coaster, it is really fast and really slow and not much stability inbetween. Possibly it works good for softwood cutters, but not oak, hickory and dirtyish wood or cutting low stumps.
> 
> I prefer system components that will be consistent and efficient and readiable long term, and I don't find that with Full Chisel, as when it get dull it just goes bad quickly and soon you have a crooked cutting chain or the sharp cutter edges are broken off and such. With Semi chisel, when it gets dull ...... it just cuts slower and slower, but it is quite gradual and consistent and readiable. If a loader on the landing or a skidder in the woods is breathing down your neck, then you can cut a few more cuts with semi and it won't ruin your day, it may not be the fastest at that point, but it will get through the log or tree ..... full chisel will just stop.... and for the one second extra speed you get from full chisel you end up with more sharpening and much shorter chain life (my findings).
> 
> Have a good one,
> 
> Sam



Exactly right!


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## 385XP

Slam it looks like you do a lot of cutting like i do and ive been using semi chiesel chain from the day i first picked up a saw and love it. I used oregon lgx full chiesel for a while but it didnt put anymore trees on the landing.Stihl semi chisel is a good fast cutting chain and i dont see me using to much of anything else. Also i bought my first Gb bar yesterday so i will see how it works out for me im currentlly runing stihl an winsor bars. oh and good thread


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## Slamm

DHIBBS75 said:


> What part of western ky are you in???



I live south of Paducah, KY.



> Slam it looks like you do a lot of cutting like i do and ive been using semi chiesel chain from the day i first picked up a saw and love it. I used oregon lgx full chiesel for a while but it didnt put anymore trees on the landing.Stihl semi chisel is a good fast cutting chain and i dont see me using to much of anything else. Also i bought my first Gb bar yesterday so i will see how it works out for me im currentlly runing stihl an winsor bars. oh and good thread



I like GB bars. I don't know that I have gotten one in the last couple of years, and there are reports of some quality issues, but overall. I can't say one bad word about them. I just blew up the first tip on a GB bar and it is old and very used, the rail surface where the chain rides gets really hard and wears very long. I think they burr up at first and then get really hard or work harden. Just file or grind that burr off and your good to go for the next year .... at least.

For professional or production type of wood cutting, Stihl chain just can't be beat, period. I still had a loop or two of Carlton/Woodsman Pro and I had two saws with 20" bars and the Carlton/Woodsman Pro was easily sharpened five times more than the Stihl.

There is a loop of Stihl Full Skip Semi Chisel, on the 361 that Karen ran for 9 straight hours, bucking up skidded hardwood logs. I bucked up logs for 7 more hours with it on Thursday with the same loop, and for that week it was felling and topping trees and cutting off knots and spurrs. That chain easily has over half of its life, and I've only hit the rakers once or twice and it cuts very nicely. I know that Carlton or Oregon could not do that. They might be cheaper, but they last half as long. So all you do is become a chain, filing expert, instead of cutting wood, I have little interest in swapping chains that often.

Later, 

Sam


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## 385XP

Slamm said:


> I live south of Paducah, KY.
> 
> 
> 
> I like GB bars. I don't know that I have gotten one in the last couple of years, and there are reports of some quality issues, but overall. I can't say one bad word about them. I just blew up the first tip on a GB bar and it is old and very used, the rail surface where the chain rides gets really hard and wears very long. I think they burr up at first and then get really hard or work harden. Just file or grind that burr off and your good to go for the next year .... at least.
> 
> For professional or production type of wood cutting, Stihl chain just can't be beat, period. I still had a loop or two of Carlton/Woodsman Pro and I had two saws with 20" bars and the Carlton/Woodsman Pro was easily sharpened five times more than the Stihl.
> 
> There is a loop of Stihl Full Skip Semi Chisel, on the 361 that Karen ran for 9 straight hours, bucking up skidded hardwood logs. I bucked up logs for 7 more hours with it on Thursday with the same loop, and for that week it was felling and topping trees and cutting off knots and spurrs. That chain easily has over half of its life, and I've only hit the rakers once or twice and it cuts very nicely. I know that Carlton or Oregon could not do that. They might be cheaper, but they last half as long. So all you do is become a chain, filing expert, instead of cutting wood, I have little interest in swapping chains that often.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam


I hope the gb bars work out good for me . also i was cutting timber around cape gerado missouri last spring summmer and fall working on the blown down trees .I like working down that way but it gets hot in the summer. Id say its about 20 degrees wormer there than it is here on average im in north east iowa were illinois and wisconsin meats along the missippi.


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## Meadow Beaver

Awesome pics Sam, I've never seen a landing around here with so much room. Also cool that your wife works with you, and by the look on her face she seems to like it. Keep 'em comin'


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## DHIBBS75

I live south of Paducah, KY.



I live 15 miles south of Paducah and grew up in Fulton... Good country....


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## wigglesworth

Slamm said:


> You will have to come up and slay 18-20" soft maples all day.



Now that sounds like fun. Maybe we will be off of 58 hour weeks by then.


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## Slamm

wigglesworth said:


> Now that sounds like fun. Maybe we will be off of 58 hour weeks by then.



I have about 5 trees to pull out tomorrow and clean up some trails and I'm done up there. I don't know when I'll move the machines to the new job. There is another hill job up here, but I'd rather do that river job before it starts raining this fall. The river looks to be down so nows the time. The timber buyer is checking his soft maple tie market and will let me know probably tomorrow.



> Awesome pics Sam, I've never seen a landing around here with so much room.



Ah, you get good ones and bad ones. Lately here, I've been getting big ones that are pretty flat. That really helps, as you know.



> I hope the gb bars work out good for me . also i was cutting timber around cape gerado missouri last spring summmer and fall working on the blown down trees .I like working down that way but it gets hot in the summer. Id say its about 20 degrees wormer there than it is here on average im in north east iowa were illinois and wisconsin meats along the missippi.



I started logging directly North of you in Ontario, WI and I logged walnut all over IA, western Ill and the east side of Nebraska. The bad thing about down here is in the winter you basically can't work, because the dirt can't figure out if it wants to freeze or thaw out and there is a constant stated of muddy grease for working on. Up by you it sure enough freezes and you can work all winter ........... but that has its bad moments too, LOL. I've worked in that -10 and -20 crap for awhile and it isn't fun. Over in Nebraska I didn't shut my Duramax off for about 10 days because it was just about always in the negatives, and some of the amish guys that I worked for weren't allowed (for religious reasons) or didn't wear proper clothes and they would just about freeze to death, so they sat in the warm truck, while the amish cutter and me cut and pulled walnuts ..... oh the fun, LOL.


Sam


----------



## 385XP

Slamm said:


> I started logging directly North of you in Ontario, WI and I logged walnut all over IA, western Ill and the east side of Nebraska. The bad thing about down here is in the winter you basically can't work, because the dirt can't figure out if it wants to freeze or thaw out and there is a constant stated of muddy grease for working on. Up by you it sure enough freezes and you can work all winter ........... but that has its bad moments too, LOL. I've worked in that -10 and -20 crap for awhile and it isn't fun. Over in Nebraska I didn't shut my Duramax off for about 10 days because it was just about always in the negatives, and some of the amish guys that I worked for weren't allowed (for religious reasons) or didn't wear proper clothes and they would just about freeze to death, so they sat in the warm truck, while the amish cutter and me cut and pulled walnuts ..... oh the fun, LOL.
> 
> 
> Sam


Im from dubuque have you been around here working? ive cut inweather so cold that after the logs sat on the landing over night the butts were cracked. Ill take the cold over the heat anyday.


----------



## Slamm

385XP said:


> Im from dubuque have you been around here working? ive cut inweather so cold that after the logs sat on the landing over night the butts were cracked. Ill take the cold over the heat anyday.



I haven't worked around there in about 3-4 years.

Sam


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Slamm said:


> Ah, you get good ones and bad ones. Lately here, I've been getting big ones that are pretty flat. That really helps, as you know.
> 
> Sam



Yup, turning a skidder around on a tight landing with two log trucks and a pile of wood is fun.


----------



## Slamm

Karen bucking up some of the last of them this morning, I'm pulling the last few out with the Cable Skidder:






I pulled about 12 of the last trees out this morning, while Karen bucked up a previous 10 by herself. She does all of her own chainsaw work except sharpening the chains.





We had two little hickorys that were hung up, so I'm backing up to them and she is hooking the chokers and topping them.





Here we pulled the second hickory up to the one we got just before that and left on the trail. Now Karen is hooking up the second tree for me to pull them both out and we are done.




Karen even powerwashed the Cable skidder by herself while I bucked up those last 12 and talked the new job over with the timber buyer.
Doesn't it look pretty, LOL.
I can probably pull bigger trees out now without having to carry all of that dirt and grease around, LOL.









This job is over and end of this week we should be starting a new, pretty good one.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Cedarkerf

Wow what a set up you have my, wife and I work extremely well together she cuts to,would love to have a set up like yours. You look like your rich beyond money as one timber faller I know describes it.:yourock:


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## 2000ssm6

Nice! Wish I were closer to help.


----------



## mowoodchopper

You are a lucky man Slamm , you have a beautiful wife that works her butt off In the timber what else could you ask for! Im lucky to my wife works good with me helping load limbs etc, she has just never ran a saw much, at least not enough I can turn her loose!


----------



## 2000ssm6

Slamm said:


> Here is some photos of the smashed 441. I was cutting a large red oak off, really low and cut the hing a little to thin. The tree sat on my saw and I couldn't get it off of it, and I couldn't get the scrench on the bar nuts, because the saw was basically scraping the ground, in the cut. I cut the holding wood with the 361 and it all when wrong. I pulled on the 441 as the tree went down, but it was pinched hard the whole way down, then it rolled over onto it. New parts from the dealer are in the $380 range, for Handle bar, fuel tank and PTO or right side crankcase. In two years the only way, this 441 has be taken out of comission is by two trees falling onto it, and both times it will still start right up and run, but the handlebar is as inappropriate angles to work. I'm going to get a new one ported up and wait for some better deals to come along for buying replacment parts on this saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just that morning, I was telling Karen I wanted another 441 so I would have two, but this wasn't in my plan for how to get another one, LOL.
> 
> Sam



I must have one of your old 441s, LOL. This one was busted about the same but the handle is fine. All the A/V mounts are shot to he**.


----------



## palogger

Slamm, nice operation you have going there, maybe try laying the logs that need bucked up on some poles that way its a little easy to buck them without getting the chain near the dirt, thats what we do with our cherry and oak that the boss comes to the woods and marks out for us


----------



## Slamm

Thanks for the good words, guys.



2000ssm6 said:


> I must have one of your old 441s, LOL. This one was busted about the same but the handle is fine. All the A/V mounts are shot to he**.



LOL, I never could break anything on the 441, myself, but the trees sure could. Looks like your PTO side crankcase is broke too on that 441?

I think that replacement crankcase side was/is about $180, I'm going to get my 441 replaced/repaired.

I have a new 441R on the way to my saw builder right now we'll try some port work and such with it and get it to me, hopefully by mid-week next week, depending on saw arrival to him and his workload.

I've got a super fast 660 coming down in the next day or two to use on this new job. Its getting some Euro-carb deal installed on it. I think there is some large riverside timber on this job, and I'm going to cut with that 660 and probably a 28"bar until one of the 441's shows up. Then I'll use the 441's and start on this field of 18-20" soft maples that should just be plain fun to cut, we have something like a 100 acre cornfield to land the logs, so for the next week or so it should be a slaughterfest ............ er' I mean, I will be harvesting the timber in a rather timely fashion, LOL.

Tomorrow, I gotta go pressure wash the grapple skidder and the loader and push some cull logs into the field's edge and then figure on moving the machines.

Has anyone attempted to move two 540B's at one time on a step deck trailer or something similiar?

Both machines end to end makes for a 38 foot long load and I think they are 18,000-19,000 pounds together. They aren't any more than 10 feet tall. I have been hauling them one at a time, but was thinking about getting someone with a long trailer and having them just take both at one time.

Just wondering,

Sam


----------



## 2000ssm6

Slamm said:


> Thanks for the good words, guys.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, I never could break anything on the 441, myself, but the trees sure could. Looks like your PTO side crankcase is broke too on that 441?
> 
> I think that replacement crankcase side was/is about $180, I'm going to get my 441 replaced/repaired.
> 
> I have a new 441R on the way to my saw builder right now we'll try some port work and such with it and get it to me, hopefully by mid-week next week, depending on saw arrival to him and his workload.
> 
> I've got a super fast 660 coming down in the next day or two to use on this new job. Its getting some Euro-carb deal installed on it. I think there is some large riverside timber on this job, and I'm going to cut with that 660 and probably a 28"bar until one of the 441's shows up. Then I'll use the 441's and start on this field of 18-20" soft maples that should just be plain fun to cut, we have something like a 100 acre cornfield to land the logs, so for the next week or so it should be a slaughterfest ............ er' I mean, I will be harvesting the timber in a rather timely fashion, LOL.



Yup, busted PTO side. The fuel tank is shot also, the area around the fuel cap had caught fire and melted it to no return. That 441 was part of a craigslist deal, got a 361 from the guy too. They had stripped the spark plug hole out by using a monster plug. The cylinder would be great for a 2 pc. head project. The owner was a douche to say the least, thought he was going to get alot of money for those turds also.

Your 441 and 660 sound intresting. My other 441 is stock but the 660 is ported, that 660 is a beast. My main felling saw is a ported 044 w/ a 28" RW Oregon. Love that combo!


----------



## Slamm

palogger said:


> Slamm, nice operation you have going there, maybe try laying the logs that need bucked up on some poles that way its a little easy to buck them without getting the chain near the dirt, thats what we do with our cherry and oak that the boss comes to the woods and marks out for us



Wow, I could never take that much time to do all of that, I cut probably 250 really nice White Oaks on this job and stacking them on poles would be way too, time consuming, plus half of the log already has dirt on it from skidding in many cases. So I would think your net gain wouldn't be that great.

I/we just use "skilled" cutting techniques that keep the cutters always pushing the dirt out and not digging the dirt into and through the wood...... Oh and we use Stihl Semi-Chisel, which honestly you can hit a good amount of dirt and still keep on cutting pretty good. Karen is really careful about hitting the dirt below the log when going through, as she hasn't mastered sharpening her own chain yet, LOL.

Sam


----------



## palogger

it was just a suggestion, but really its not that time consuming just have one or two ploes laid out and when you bring the logs out just drive over them and drop the hitch on them instead of the ground


----------



## Slamm

I questioned posting this video as it has a few things bad about it:

One the chain on the 361 is/was dull, as Karen had just finished bucking up those logs earlier and we just jumped on the ATV and road around looking for some easy cleanup trees to cut and count or find any that might still be in the woods.

Two the trees are small and don't at all represent what I've been cutting, as they we were just cleaning up the woods today and I figured the landowner would question my salvaging ability if I didn't take these two little white oaks that a storm or something had blown over right by the trail.

Three I am caught using my favorite cutting technique for cutting wood in a bind or possible bind. I cut with the top of the bar pointed towards me, vertical and backwards, sort of. I have several reasons why it isn't really very dangerous, and its quite practical, but the safety police will get me anyways and you can't argure with the safety police and get away with it .... ever, so I won't bother.

Four, I also stand on the tree I'm topping, which I do a lot of too. I started riding the log down from the beginning of my little career and other than a few exciting moments it has been a pretty uneventful technique.

My dislaimer is don't ever, ever cut like this or do anything you see in this video, in fact it is an example of what not to do.

Now the funny part is there are stinging insects in it at the end, LOL. There is a rotten log under the bottom of that last top I'm cutting, and they got mad. It was yellow jackets and they stung me 15 times, as best as we could count. I held my position until it was fully topped as I knew there wasn't any coming back, but it is kinda funny. I kill the first one and indicate this moment on the video, then you can see me start to dance a little while I'm finishing that top, then I performed my standard rip the saw out of the pinch, LOL.





Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

palogger said:


> it was just a suggestion, but really its not that time consuming just have one or two ploes laid out and when you bring the logs out just drive over them and drop the hitch on them instead of the ground



But we pull out around 30-50+ a day sometimes 100 with two skidders. I don't have that many poles, LOL.

I see your point if you have more workers, but we can't do it that way. Right now, we are cutting large amount of trees, and then skid those trees out with two skidders running, and then timber buyer marks his lengths once or twice a week.

This next job the timber buyer wants us to maybe just pull every dang log out and fill the whole 100 acre field up and then he will show up and mark them, when he can. I like this because its days of cutting followed by days of skidding in a very target rich environment, LOL, which makes for great skidding, my favorite, and then the dreaded day of hours and hours of bucking up logs.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Well two days ago, I met the timber buyer on the new job. They are still cutting corn, but I can cut for a week or so before, I need to land anything in the field. There is 1/2 mile of river front, and then a really thick 30-40 acre stand of Soft Maple.

We didn't walk the place much just had a quick look over. No hills and really short skids. Once we get going it should really add up.

This is the direction we will be cutting, its a half mile to the end. The river front is about 100 yards wide.






Here is the river and a barge:





I could skid driftwood, LOL, it would be light.





Here is the Ohio River:





Here is a operation by our house. The local paper mill bought this timber 2,500 acres and they have a huge Prentice skidder and two green skidders like the one pictured, pulling the trees. The knuckle boom is loading the trucks and they have a hot saw cutting to length. There are two mexican migets I'm not being mean here, they are literally less than 4'6" tall carrying huge Huskies, cutting the trees that are too big for the HydroAx they have cutting them.





Should I use this same thread for the new job or start a new thread?

Later,

Sam


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## chopperfreak2k1

naw, keep this one goin i say. as always cool pix Sam!


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## Metals406

This is a great thread!! 

Looking forward to more. . . As far as the wasp/hornet thing, it pays to carry a few of those wasp killer cans -- they spray like 30'. Go to the truck or quad, grab spray, kill offending bugs, keep on working.


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## Farmertim

I agree--this is a great thread. Thanks for sharing Sam I have really been enjoying it--too bad about the 441, but like you said hopefully you will have two going soon.

Tim


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## Slamm

We and another possibly new cutter and skidder driver cut a little on Saturday morning to see how he could handle a saw. He did good.
He brought his 5 tank old 362 out ....... we cut a little with it, as I was interested in how these new ones work. The rakers were too low then, and it wasn't a good showing at this point. We'll try it again once its broke in.





The new job is beyond the tip of those barges.





Had to get some I-beams for a bridge we are making on our place so I didn't get started until about 1pm. This is the easiest logging I've ever got to do. There is maybe 10-15' elevation change on the whole job, other than some dry backwater gullys.
I used a woodsported 066 that has an 064 fuel tank on it, 28" Stihl bar and Carlton Semi-Chisel, Full skip Chain (because it was laying there). All of the photos this round are of this saw with a 28" bar on. I cut and topped 34 trees and got stuck once in all of it, and it was pretty bad on a big top that twisted, but other than that it was a nice smooth day. The river had flooded this area for several months this spring and all of the trees have fine silt covering the bark for the first ten 10ft or so. This saw was getting 4 trees cut and topped per tank of gas, which is the same as the BB660.
Here are just several photos of the trees, some might be duplicates or not in the right order.




This was a nice one.












Nice spurs on this one, make a neat table.








Next....


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## Farmertim

So ya finally stepped up and used a man's saw eh LOL!! Looks like some fine logs. Everything still looks pretty green your way--when do the leaves start changing?--just a great time to be in the woods.

Tim


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## Slamm

Farmertim said:


> So ya finally stepped up and used a man's saw eh LOL!! Looks like some fine logs. Everything still looks pretty green your way--when do the leaves start changing?--just a great time to be in the woods.
> 
> Tim



LOL, I don't have a girls saw to use, as the 441 got crushed and I have several on there way to here now. 2000ssm6's stock 441 should be here tomorrow, and my 441R is getting ported lastnight, tonight and tomorrow night. Then I have another used one going to Terry for the same porting and then I have a line on a parts saw that will get a Big Bore kit and then I will find some used parts to get my crushed one going.
For the record, I love the power of modded 660's with a 28" bar, that is my favorite setup for bigger trees and/or flatter ground. On really steep stuff they tire me out more than their power can compensate for in the cut.

I have barely put any gas through this 066 thing, as I always had the BB660 and another modded 660 that is much faster. I did find out today that I simply do not like the BB660, and after talking to Jeremy, I think I need to order/get some softer AV mounts for it, as I think that is the reason the thing kills my hands. Because this mushy 066 didn't do a thing to my hands. Flat ground helps everything though, LOL. The 066 does have an aftermarket bar that is about as stout as a wet noodle, I can bend it at will, where as, I have never bent an OEM bar.

Mostly cutting Pin Oak here and some smaller soft maple:

Camera is acting screwy, this is the other side of where those barges were:





























Later,

Sam


----------



## tlandrum

Slamm said:


> Then I have another used one going to Terry for the same porting
> 
> ahh sam do you miss our interaction already , and how can you take the abuse from those nasty ol rubber av saws,and the gas usage has got to be really hard on the proffit margin. just send thos big ol gas guzzlers to one of us that dont mind the fuel addiction.


----------



## Stihlman441

opcorn:


----------



## Slamm

tlandrum2002 said:


> Slamm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then I have another used one going to Terry for the same porting
> 
> ahh sam do you miss our interaction already , and how can you take the abuse from those nasty ol rubber av saws,and the gas usage has got to be really hard on the proffit margin. just send thos big ol gas guzzlers to one of us that dont mind the fuel addiction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You, dumb$#it, Terry is my buddy in Iowa that ports all of my saws.
> 
> Sam
Click to expand...


----------



## tlandrum

Slamm said:


> tlandrum2002 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You, dumb$#it, Terry is my buddy in Iowa that ports all of my saws.
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> isnt that convenient..... throw out one name and it happens to be the same as mine . my feelings are more hurt by the minute.where my beer ,,,,,,,,i feel a tear coming on
Click to expand...


----------



## Slamm

tlandrum2002 said:


> Slamm said:
> 
> 
> 
> isnt that convenient..... throw out one name and it happens to be the same as mine .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'll try to overlook the substandard qualities you have brought onto such a name.
> 
> Terry, the guy who works on my saws, isn't nearly as full of crap as you are, and he hasn't been porting saws since last year or more likely earlier this year, more like 10+ years. Oh, and he loves the 441 and didn't just change that opinion in the last 20-30days, just to name some of the milder contrasts in case maybe you forget and think that, I'm talking about you, at some other point in the future.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam
Click to expand...


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## tlandrum

oh please forgive me kind sir, im sure that my name must taste like sh it in your mouth,or is it the sh it youve been spouting off


----------



## Slamm

Here is something to not try because of obvious reasons, but I thought I would give it a try to see how a video would turn out. I high cut it because there was a rotten section on the outside, as it turned out it wasn't rotten on the inside:




Here is one for the kids. My first tree felled with a (stock) 441, yesterday, I am use to only operating modded saws and well, I don't want to ever have to use a (stock) saw again, this was miserable, especially on a tree this size. Pin Oak:




Might have another video after awhile ............its too long...

Sam


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## Slamm

A whoops, this tree wanted to fly.




The long video is 2.55 minutes of boredom cutting a larger tree down. Its still uploading and has failed several times. I don't know what is wrong with it.

Sam


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## 056 kid

Quit all that hocus pocus boring & tripping the back and you will get more done... I would have thought that you would know all about something that elementary with all the time you talk about saving with your 441.


----------



## Slamm

Heres another video, there was a top from another tree on the back right from the camera.





Sam


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## Slamm

I got my ported, OEM P&C, 660 last night and put it to work today. Flat ground and big trees make for a fun day. It wore a 28" bar.





Ugly Stump there, LOL. The 28" bar could reach all but about a 1.5"-2" little square in the middle:




Here is the top cut:




Hooking that tree up, choker wouldn't fit, thats a nice thing though, LOL. I think there was about 650 BDFT in this butt log.




Here one of the guys are pulling out another big tree from today, this is not the same tree as above:




Try to get a couple of videos uploaded for later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Cutting down a good one.



Pulling that tree:



Later,

Sam


----------



## bitzer

Looks like fun man! 

I agree with the kid though. You could be gettin a lot more wood on the ground. Don't limit yourself to faces. Depth, type, dutchman for swing cuts. Not every tree gets the same cuts and wedges have their limit (beating the hell out of them is over-rated). Every tree is different and can be cut differently. Theres a whole lot you could be doing to increase your production. 32" bar and a serious single bit for starters. Figuring out your limits on how far you can swing one or what you can do with a leaner. Cutting the compression side first. Bore on heavy headed leaners that might chair only or only when you need to. Swing through the back cut on the rest. Cut form one side, etc. Look up occasionaly! #### happens. Its it worth cuttin all the flairs off or just cutting it up a little higher? I may sound like a #### and you've got a hell of a nice set up, but I think you could really make it top notch with a few adjustments.


----------



## Slamm

bitzercreek1 said:


> Looks like fun man!
> 
> I agree with the kid though. You could be gettin a lot more wood on the ground. Don't limit yourself to faces. Depth, type, dutchman for swing cuts. Not every tree gets the same cuts and wedges have their limit (beating the hell out of them is over-rated). Every tree is different and can be cut differently. Theres a whole lot you could be doing to increase your production. 32" bar and a serious single bit for starters. Figuring out your limits on how far you can swing one or what you can do with a leaner. Cutting the compression side first. Bore on heavy headed leaners that might chair only or only when you need to. Swing through the back cut on the rest. Cut form one side, etc. Look up occasionaly! #### happens. Its it worth cuttin all the flairs off or just cutting it up a little higher? I may sound like a #### and you've got a hell of a nice set up, but I think you could really make it top notch with a few adjustments.



? Well what are you guys calling high production. In this timber, that has both trees of this size and then a few 19-24" trees and then 4 trees about this size. I can get 6-13 trees per hour down and topped. There are of course some that get hung and such, but easily I can maintain 8-10 trees per hour throughout a day in this style of timber. I know because I keep pretty close records. Here I am using 660's and 28" bars. That is actually my favorite setup for less steep hills and decent trees.

When I go cut, I don' start the skidder and cut three trees and pull three trees and cutt three trees and skid three trees. I go cut 30-60 trees one day and we pull them out the next day or the skidders move in days later and pull everything out, while the cutter/s go somewhere else. I don't really like cutting around skidders and I don't want the skidders bothered by me.

My personally best was a 100% Cherry tree job I bought and sold the timber in Wisconsin. I cut 98 trees in 6.5 hours. Again, these were butter soft cherry trees and they had zero branches, literally cut and top = 2 cuts. They were 20" trees +/- 4".

I don't always bore cut. I like to bore cut, but I run around some of them, use wedges on some, but only to assist in a slight increase in control or to get a little more angle out of a leaner that I want to go slightly different.

I'm sure I could cut a lot faster, but you have to understand that as the owner and direct benefactor of increased skidder production and smoothness of their operation, I don't mind sacrificing speed on my or the cutters behalf. I don't see that as important as fast skidding. I could be wrong, but skidders make $100-500 per hour, while a cutter slow, fast or super fast, $30-100. So I would like to take the time and make sure the butts are easily lined up to the logging trail or trim any knots or branches off that might hangup on a turn and break something, or cut down trees that I already know will cause the skidder to have a problem.

Is all of that slower, I might win some points, while loosing some others in the course of the whole operation, but I can say that a tract of my cut timber looks very, very clean and professional with most if not all stumps low, level and clean. I can say that in slow times of economy or timber value over the last 6 years, my machines have stayed working when I wanted/needed them to. If that is the price I pay for supposively cutting the trees a little slower, that is fine with me.

Our timber buyer calls other loggers "hack and stack" loggers and "they will not work for me", well, I guess, I fall into the "non-hack and stack" crowd. I have worked with cutters that do a lot of walking around the tree and its faster, but man they end up ripping the sides out of a lot of good white oaks and hickory, some buyers say something and some don't. When I started in Wisconsin, if you didn't bore cut, they would not hire you. They taught me to bore cut and said "To perfect that cut", and you don't or won't need much else. I agree there are about 50 different ways to cut a tree down, but bore cutting is typically safer for both cutter and the tree (if you are interested in not splitting or damaging any wood on the butt).

One of my faster ways is to swing the bar from back of the tree to the front on one side and from the front to the back on the other side. I do this in a way that I don't or rarely "over cut" or "double cut" a shelf. This in, effect will sever all fibers on the stump except for the hinge and the final back section that releases the tree, even tho, I never actually made a "bore cut", as I am always cutting with the bottom of the bar and its dawged in. This is my favorite cut with strong modded saws, because I push them with one hand and my knees and don't have to use my arms very much. (not sure if that made any sense, LOL)

I do cut my trees from one side if they are 28" and smaller, as I like to use a 28" bar, where as, around here most use a 20" and 24" bars. I like the 28" because on a lot of these sized trees you can get through a lot of the smaller averages, while staying on one side of the tree.

I wear that backpack drink holder to save time on drinking water. I typically drink when I'm making my felling cuts and sometimes when running from the stump to the top cut. With bottles and jugs you have to stop and go get it or what not. My personal favorite is, stop the skidder driver to get you a drink, LOL, thats a money maker there.

I thank you for your help, and I do consider it, and will play around with some different style of cuts in this timber as it is mostly Pin Oak and Soft Maple so the quality and value is not like the good white oak, veneer or grade hardwoods. Other than a 1 million bdft job in Iowa that was total cottonwood, this is the least valuable timber I have cut in 6 years, as it is just a good river bottom.

Thanks,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

> Its it worth cuttin all the flairs off or just cutting it up a little higher?



Hey, I have tried to compromise a little on this swelled up river stuff. I came up a little, but not near as high and some other logger that logged close by, their stumps are easily 2 feet high on average some 2.5, that is just wasteful and hard on skidder blades and undercarriage, not to mention is really limits the skidder drivers options on which possible course they could take, when the different routes are full of 2.5 tall stumps. Things like that add up to more than the value of super fast cutting.

I might be wrong on this one, but I'm more for the skidder having it easy than for the cutter having it easy. Again skidders $100-500 per hour and a cutter $30-100 per hour, I don't care about the cutter near as much ............ even when its me, LOL.

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

Incorporate some reckless abandonment in with what your doing.

I know it sounds bad, but it opens the doors of possibility. .


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## mowoodchopper

Slamm said:


> tlandrum2002 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You, dumb$#it, Terry is my buddy in Iowa that ports all of my saws.
> 
> Sam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb %%%% Is correct! Great thread Sam to bad a butthole had to chime in!
Click to expand...


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Incorporate some reckless abandonment in with what your doing.
> 
> I know it sounds bad, but it opens the doors of possibility. .



Why?, when the work I do makes me plenty of money and literally everyone involved loves the results and outcome, and I never blow trees up, or have to cover up the blown up ones and bad stumps and butts under the brush piles. In 6 years of cutting I've slabbed the side of a heavy leaning white Oak and ripped a pretty good side out of a hickory that hit another tree and thats about it.

Hell, I want the timber buyer and landowner to walk through a patch that I have cut and 10-16 tops are all in one pile, due to proper cutting and wedging them over when needed, and that is all without starting one skidder engine, after the skidders come in and pull out the outward facing butts, it looks like a city park with a small brush pile in the middle. There aren't tops laying everywhere looking like I didn't have a plain and just walked through hacking trees and letting them fall here and there with no plain.

You can and I have walked through other loggers work and seen what various hack jobs of cutting results in.

You can have your reckless abandon and I'll just keep working when others are looking for a job due to crappy looking past jobs.

Sam


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## tlandrum

i just have to ask. why dont you drag out the weigh wood, at 36 dollars a ton around here and hauling 25 ton at a time on a tandem truck that means your leaving a lotta money in the woods. and when your not dragging the weigh wood out your leaving a hella lot of trash tops in the woods. i know you can move a lot faster dropping and single stem topping but hey arent you in it for the money? i have a lot of weeks that the check for paper wood is bigger than the check for the logs. so if you had a truck and a knuckleboom you would make more money and leave the job in better shape. you couldnt get a job around here with any of our foresters without pulling the weigh wood.and yes , it requires more equipment but it pays for itself. at an average of 50 ton a week or more thats 1800 just for the junk wood. and that not bad by itself,now add the logs into it and hey now your making bank. just food for thought.


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## Slamm

tlandrum2002 said:


> i just have to ask. why dont you drag out the weigh wood, at 36 dollars a ton around here and hauling 25 ton at a time on a tandem truck that means your leaving a lotta money in the woods. and when your not dragging the weigh wood out your leaving a hella lot of trash tops in the woods. i know you can move a lot faster dropping and single stem topping but hey arent you in it for the money? i have a lot of weeks that the check for paper wood is bigger than the check for the logs. so if you had a truck and a knuckleboom you would make more money and leave the job in better shape. you couldnt get a job around here with any of our foresters without pulling the weigh wood.and yes , it requires more equipment but it pays for itself. at an average of 50 ton a week or more thats 1800 just for the junk wood. and that not bad by itself,now add the logs into it and hey now your making bank. just food for thought.



Oh, we don't make $36 per ton here. Its more like $18-25, or at least that is what I am told. I do bring the easy straight, but smaller pieces out for pulp/chip wood. But it is typically explained to the landowner that he is not making any money on the pulp and the timber buyer isn't making any money on the pulp just me/cutter and the trucker, and I'm not the trucker, so therefore while I do bring some "weight wood" out, and more than most in these parts, it certainly done as more of a "courtesy" as part of cleanup and not as a form of making money.

I have tried to run the numbers several times in several ways and I can't get pulp wood to add up to making any money for me. If someone can explain to me how at those prices I can make money, I am all ears and pen and notebook, because I don't log because I love it, I love money, therefore I log, LOL.

Sam


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## tlandrum

the way i look at pulp wood is that i am already standing at this tree and if i leave all the 5" and up decently straight and atleast 16ft long limbs on ,it takes a couple of min max to get it ready to go out of the woods. mind you ,i wont send nasty crooked pulp wood to the mill becouse you cant get enough on the truck. it needs to be decently straight. but on average you will gain a tandem load of pulp after every 2-3 loads of logs. even at 20 a ton hauling 25 ton thats 500 bucks that you gained over what the job is speced out at. even if ypu split the load with the land owner and truck driver you have 250 that you would have left laying in the woods. now for me i go thru about 50 to 75 gallon of deisel per day and at 2.25 for off raod and 3 for taxed ,that load o pulp just paid my fuel expenses for the day. and this means more money stays in my pocket from the logs. pulp wood from your tops is free money. but i pay the land owner 15% of the pulp wood and i still get good money in my pocket for what your leaving in the woods. your problem is having to pay to have it hauled. buy a cheap tandem log truck and make that money for yourself. around here we pay .05 a ft to get logs hauled and 200 a load for weigh wood. i cant see me paying that out each week.


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## 056 kid

Slamm said:


> Why?, when the work I do makes me plenty of money and literally everyone involved loves the results and outcome, and I never blow trees up, or have to cover up the blown up ones and bad stumps and butts under the brush piles. In 6 years of cutting I've slabbed the side of a heavy leaning white Oak and ripped a pretty good side out of a hickory that hit another tree and thats about it.
> 
> Hell, I want the timber buyer and landowner to walk through a patch that I have cut and 10-16 tops are all in one pile, due to proper cutting and wedging them over when needed, and that is all without starting one skidder engine, after the skidders come in and pull out the outward facing butts, it looks like a city park with a small brush pile in the middle. There aren't tops laying everywhere looking like I didn't have a plain and just walked through hacking trees and letting them fall here and there with no plain.
> 
> You can and I have walked through other loggers work and seen what various hack jobs of cutting results in.
> 
> You can have your reckless abandon and I'll just keep working when others are looking for a job due to crappy looking past jobs.
> 
> Sam



You took that the wrong way. try new things. try and notice new things. YOu have been at it a while, I kind of feel like a jerk telling you how to get down. Ive been falling timber maybe 5 years, there are things that I have tried, learned, and gained on that 40 year vets hadent ever done.

You live in flat country. Can you jump a tree straight off the stump and have it lay where you want or need? if so do it. there is time saved. Can you domino 3 trees with a fourth instead of poundin wedges on three trees? Does your mill care abour butt flair? Iallmost guarantee you that with every load of grade logs you will have around half a load of wood maybe more if you top to 5 or 6"! . Open your mind and keep it sharp. Its something you obviously allready have a knack for so you can do it better ya know!
Get my jist? if not its allright, I am terrible with written expression. . . .


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## Slamm

Yeah, I leave the better limbs on the trees and then cut them off out at the landing for pulp. But on that last job we only had 1 load of pulp for about 90ish thousand bdft. But granite that was amazingly high quality hill timber that had the smallest tops on average I have seen. This river job will have more pulp in it and I have been taking more out.

While I agree with your numbers and logic from that point of view. We have job after job of great timber to work. So while I do pull chip wood out to the landing, again, its just not paying me as much as dropping a few more bigger trees that day or better yet, finishing my job quicker and moving on to the next job.

As to getting a log truck, I have contemplated that thought, but it sure seems to me that there are a lot of out of work log truck drivers around here. The trucks always break down, DOT bust them everywhere and its just a pain.

I just have two skidders and one wheel loader. After looking the timber over, I know what I have to do and what I can do and its the same everyday. There is very little variation, you have cutting days and skidding days and the timber buyer pays us to have a wheel loader availiable to him to sort logs and load trucks, and I don't even have to drive it.

My equipment is all paid for many times over. I have no loans, so logging is just a pure money maker for me at this point. My machines while they are old have low hour motors and trannies, and everything works.

I don't have a CDL and don't want to get one. I have a truck driver that hauls three machines up to 1 hour away for $400, heck the diesel would be over $200 and I don't have to load him or anything. I go hunting or work on building our house or ride horses. I don't have to sell anything to the landowner, or politic or BS with boundaries and such, I just show up and cut and skid as fast as I can and go home without any more worries.

Could I make more money per acre or job? Possibly, but it couldn't make it faster.

As to the pulp, though, like I said, it just doesn't seem to make me enough money to justify trying very hard. That being said, I do leave a lot of good straight branches and whatnots on a log, and it will be more on this job because there is more of those types of trees.

Later,

Sam


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## little possum

Great thread Sam. Would be neat to watch you work.


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## 056 kid

Pulp wood is half the deal in hardwood country. I know what you mean with high quality timber, but all the stuff in your pictures has good wood in it.3:1 type stuff.

If you really wanna make $$ get a small boom loader with a hydraulic buck saw. You allready said the stiff you got is payed and you make it sound like you are the bees knees in your area.

I dont get it, pro or not? which one? its up to you dude..


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> You took that the wrong way. try new things. try and notice new things. YOu have been at it a while, I kind of feel like a jerk telling you how to get down. Ive been falling timber maybe 5 years, there are things that I have tried, learned, and gained on that 40 year vets hadent ever done.
> 
> You live in flat country. Can you jump a tree straight off the stump and have it lay where you want or need? if so do it. there is time saved. Can you domino 3 trees with a fourth instead of poundin wedges on three trees? Does your mill care abour butt flair? Iallmost guarantee you that with every load of grade logs you will have around half a load of wood maybe more if you top to 5 or 6"! . Open your mind and keep it sharp. Its something you obviously allready have a knack for so you can do it better ya know!
> Get my jist? if not its allright, I am terrible with written expression. . . .



I get your drift better with this post, but like I said, I have spoken with our timber buyer about our "speed" and he is quite happy and says we are doing compariable with other contractors who typically have larger machines or more of something than we do, and he sure likes the timber and how we cut it.

Those low stumps on the last job I have photos up of. They were easily on average 1 foot lower than whoever logged it for the landowner about 18 years ago. There were about 350 logs pulled out. I have to tally up that number but its close.

So that is 350 extra feet of super high quality butt log that was pulled off of that job, while making it better looking and easier for my skidders to work. Some stumps can't even bee seen as they just covered up with leaves.

Just to run the numbers 35logs x 10' x 20" diameter = 5600 Board Feet

Now take 5600 x $.88 to $3.50 per foot and that is making some money all for just cutting the stump lower and not pulling any fiber out of the butt log ruining the veneer, but that is on a high quality timber.

This river junk, I have upped my stumps a little partially due to crazy wide root spurrs and some due to larger percentage of rotten lower stump,which I have to cut off anyways.

So I think I am doing a lot of what you both are saying, I'm not really sure what you see in the pics and videos, that says I'm not or won't or don't. I will freely admit that I am not cut of a similiar cloth as most loggers in that I don't live to log or log to live. I due like logging, its kinda fun at times, but if I could be hog hunting or riding a horse or playing with my kids, that is what I would rather be doing ..... not operating a chainsaw, but I have to make money like the next person, only I have a pention for trying to making it very quickly when I do work, which pushes me to try and think outside the box. I don't log like people who come from multi-generation families of loggers do, my mindset is quite different. We both pull out logs at the end of the day, but there is a difference in some of the details of each way, but probably more similiar than not.

My opinion, gotta go,

Sam


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Pulp wood is half the deal in hardwood country. I know what you mean with high quality timber, but all the stuff in your pictures has good wood in it.3:1 type stuff.
> 
> If you really wanna make $$ get a small boom loader with a hydraulic buck saw. You allready said the stiff you got is payed and you make it sound like you are the bees knees in your area.
> 
> I dont get it, pro or not? which one? its up to you dude..



Here is my pulp wood predicament then:

I can just do nothing but cut and skid great trees, both typically in size and quality and I can do that from sun up to sun down everyday it isn't too muddy to work and have been for years.

Yet you think i would make more money if I stopped what I'm currently doing and got a small knuckle boom, and buck saw and added a pulp operation to my day of work??

I mean, sure I will make more money, but at what cost??? I guess, I could get flood lights and start a second shift for pulp?!

Like I said before, I do pull out pulp on trees where I can make money doing it, but I sure can't afford the cost of thinking that pulp is how I need to make my money.

I mean for just a run of the mill example. On that last job, on a pretty steep slope. I, alone, cut 26 trees in 3 hours, I, alone, then pulled out 29 trees (some left over from previous day) in another 3 hours and these are good trees not pulp wood trees.

I worked for 6 hours, after that I shut the skidder down and went home and rode a horse and mowed my pastures. Later that week Karen and I spent a day bucking up 200+ logs. I didn't have to stop skidding and run a buck saw and knuckle boom and load some bumpy ole log truck to make that lowest pay per hour of the day, then sit in some log truck traffic jam at the pulp mill waiting to get unloaded and hope the DOT doesn't give me some trumped up ticket for $3,000 because my tail light went out.

I'll agree, I guess, I could make more money, but at what cost??

I truly think I have it easy for the hard work that I do, and I certainly have crap days like the next person, but I try to limit my headaches to a few certain high paying areas.

Sam


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## 056 kid

#### man!! you can saw + load logs bigger than a truck tire in seconds with a "small knuckle boom". Not just wood guy. cmon!

I cant even get past your first sentence without having to RE-explain things. . .

I don't know guy. I have worked with my boss alone more than a few times getting 2 83.000 lb loads of grade logs and 1 of 2 83,000 lb loads of wood to the mill which would be 2 1:30s and a 4:00. Me cutting down and sharing the skidding with boss man who runs loader and drives truck. Its a grind that is not the norm but that's two people starting at day break and leaving the woods at 3pm. Steep ground, long skids, all that stuff.... Could we get that work done with your operation? no way possible.. If we where running at normal capacity 4 or 5 getting 5 83,000 loads between logs and wood in a good stand of timber is easy stuff. SURELY enough for the boss to make SOME money in the east coast hardwood game..

Your in flat ground, you could roll timber if you where serious about it, but I remember how you feel about your job. . . . .


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> #### man!! you can saw + load logs bigger than a truck tire in seconds with a "small knuckle boom". Not just wood guy. cmon!
> 
> I cant even get past your first sentance without having to RE-explain things. . .
> 
> Now lemme read the rest...



Where did I say you couldn't??

I'm saying I get to cut great trees (veneer and grade and some for ties) non-stop basically, from sun up to sun down, and I can't even get that work completed fast enough to think that "adding" a pulp wood operation is going to make me more money per hour than what I am currently doing.

Possibly I am wrong, but I sure don't see how.

Sam


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## 056 kid

slamm said:


> where did i say you couldn't??
> 
> I'm saying i get to cut great trees (veneer and grade and some for ties) non-stop basically, from sun up to sun down, and i can't even get that work completed fast enough to think that "adding" a pulp wood operation is going to make me more money per hour than what i am currently doing.
> 
> Possibly i am wrong, but i sure don't see how.
> 
> Sam



so do i. Ive put 15,000 on the ground before lunch before, & guess what, after the trees where dragged to the landing and sawed up, was freaking wood on the landing too!!! *you do not have to stop cutting logs to have a wood pile man!! you can do both a\\nd get this, are you ready??? at the same mommy bleeping time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Add to the operation you allready have. EXPANDING would be the word...


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## 056 kid

Im trying to give you ideas & help here..


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## tlandrum

sam ,i think what your not seeing is that youve already cut the tree down, youre going to cut the limbs of at one point or another whether its in the bush or on the landing. where is the extra work your talking about at this point? thats why im saying the pulp is free money. your going to skid the twitch in whether its got limbs or not.still no extra time involved. so really the only extra time will be in loading the truck. with my knuckle boom it takes 30 min to load the truck. so right now i have spent an extra 30 min for what will be a 500 dollar load of pulp. if you have someone that has a self loader haul the pulp you will have 0 extra time in the load of pulp ,just money in your pocket. ther is money in pulp,whether or not you want to make it is another question. i myself feel that if theres money in the woods and im there ,its leaving with me. i think that we are on different ends of the logging pay scale. i believe that you are in the end that gets payed for just cutting and skidding and i get paid for the whole shooting match. by me be able to do all the parts of the job i can capitalize on money that you cant. i know that buying all the other equipment is a pain but once you are completely self sufficient you can spend more of that quality time hunting and riding and with the kids. seems like your at the great in between, you make a decent living at what your doing but you could make more for the same time spent if you manage things correctly. i know you have been doing this for a few years now, but id hope youll eventually want to be completely self sustained. it took me several years to own all the equipment i have now, and the last piece i bought will finally be paid off in jan. i have a 1994 clarke f67g, 1990 clarke 667 cable,1984 cat 955l track loader,1980 jd450c dozer,1988 freightliner tandem log truck,1992 kodiak single axle log truck(wifes truck) ,and a 1985 husky brute loader. its takes all this to not have to depend on others. its not cheap to maintain but when all is running smoothly, the checks get a whole hella lot bigger. like i said its just food for thought, and theres always more to be had if you plan it right. but do what you can with what you have for now.if your happy making what you make then im happy for you,but you could make more if you if you wanted to at the same amount of time your spending now.


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## bitzer

I was talking about efficiency not speed. Hitting your hole every time when falling. Using the leans and putting the trees where you want them every time. No hangers. You're right 2' stumps are a waste. I mean enough to get the power head in sideways. In less than a foot you can put all kinds of different faces in and get trees to do what you want them too. It would also save you on chains and you could be using full chisel. Theres lots of imbeded dirt and abrasives in where you're cuttng, hence the semi-chis. I think you've got a hell of a nice operation. Just a little tweaking thats all. A long bar cuts those small ones the same, but it doesn't pay the other way around.

BTW, I've got that Fiskars at home and a plain old single bit will give you a lot more lift with a lot less effort. You'll save your wedges too, believe it or not. 

I know what you mean about bore cutting in Wis. Its a necessary tool, but not the end all like some here think.


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## Slamm

Been pretty busy on this new job. Haven't had much time for the pics and videos as of late.

Here is a big one from yesterday, that is a modded 660 with 28" bar for reference:










Black Locust trees suck, insanely hard and lotsa thorns:





Got a few trees out in the last few days, I think there are just over 180 trees in this landing and 100+ in another landing about 1/4 mile away, and at least 50+ still in the woods that Karen needs to get out. There are 61 trees already cut up and stacked between the two landings.













Try to get some more pics later this week. I think some videos might get uploaded later of the big landing.

Later,

Sam


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## Slamm

Here is a little video of the landing:




Later,

Sam


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## 056 kid

Nice wood!

Now with the help of a loader, you could have that spread consolidated on about 100 feet squared. Food for thought, food for thought..

Keep the pics coming...


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Nice wood!
> 
> Now with the help of a loader, you could have that spread consolidated on about 100 feet squared. Food for thought, food for thought..
> 
> Keep the pics coming...



LOL, its amazing I can make any money at all without you right here to help me. How many people am I suppose to hire to run all of this crap? I'm not saying its a bad idea, but you don't have a clue what my situation is here. Hell, why don't I just get a HydroAx and cut everything with a machine?? Food for thought, Food for thought??????????????

Put some pics and videos of the good and bad of the operation that you do or don't do, and let me take a crack at it, bet your rear, I find something dumb about it and certainly if I don't know your situation.

How can I have a loader with a consolidated landing if the man that owns the timber, wants to mark it according to his changing markets, and he has to mark the logs and then I buck them up and he pays me to use my wheel loader and he stacks it all ....................... How exactly will a log loader help me??????? If you want to buy me one, I'll set it out there somewhere in that big ole corn field and we'll see how much work we get out of it ......... nothing. It would be as worthless as tits on a boar. 

I like how I put a few pics and dumb videos up and suddenly that is how the whole operation works. Heck, even, self-admittly, I put photos and videos of my screw ups on here yet for some reason you think thats all I do is whack wedges with little fiskars axes and low cut every hollow tree that I come to, and that I don't know how to walk around a tree with a saw dawged in. Have you looked at some of those stumps?????? if you cut like it sounds like you cut, you wouldn't be cutting for this timber buyer, you would be like every other logger around here........... out of work. I'm not out of work, I'm hiring more people, so possibly, just possibly I do have a clue about what I'm doing.

I'll await your most recent working pics and vids.

Later,

Sam


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## 056 kid

Hell a loader takes ummmm, 1 person, and the hydro ax is a great idea, you could get 10 + loads a day easy! But then you would have to #### around and lay each one out in a freakin field to let land owner grade hahahaha. 


What got this whole thing started is you gabbing about your bad ace 441 and how high production your operation was, or so you think. 

Im done though, you are convinced that you are something your not. 

I have gotten out of the while argument deal on here but real quick I'l say.

I could run circles around your not even gypo status operation with one other person working with myself. Falling timber? I could wax your arse in that area as well... Dont think so? Sure you dont, but see if I care. I was trying to be nice #### boy. . .


BTW if you wanna see some pics o fwhere I work, look through Burvols "falling pics thread..."


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Hell a loader takes ummmm, 1 person, and the hydro ax is a great idea, you could get 10 + loads a day easy! But then you would have to #### around and lay each one out in a freakin field to let land owner grade hahahaha.
> 
> 
> What got this whole thing started is you gabbing about your bad ace 441 and how high production your operation was, or so you think.
> 
> Im done though, you are convinced that you are something your not.



I know perfectly well, how many people it takes to run a loader, been on jobs with them.????? I have two skidders and one wheel loader. That is what I get paid to have on the job. I won't and don't get paid to have a loader on the job. So you giving me advice with everyone of my posts, when you don't know the situation is getting kinda stupid. Again, what the heck would I do with a loader???? I don't even have to run the wheel loader or load logs. All I do is cut and skid, period. I don't care about anything else, I don't get paid to do anything else. I have never said that I am the fastest, or even fast, if so find it, because I have worked with some very fast cutters and I don't put myself anywhere near their bracket, never have and will be the first to say so.

I have never said my 441 is the fastest, in fact I have on most occassions explained that if it was slower I wouldn't care because of its other benefits ......... many other forum members on here have shown that the 441 isn't much if any slower and in modded form it can be faster .... They all have figured this out this year, 2010. I had that figured out 2-3 years ago, and I like my 441's (modded of course, LOL). I mostly like and need the anti-vibe do to breaking my left hand and writst, more times than you have broke any of the bones in your body and breaking my right hand and wrist quit a few times ........... 15 years of riding bulls will do that to a body.

As to me convincing myself that I am something, I'm not. I not really sure what I am convinced of in the speed department, when I need to cut fast and the timber is right (low quality), I can cut fast and when I need to put trees where I want them and cut them low, I slow down and do that. I am convinced that I am a quality cutter that doesn't do a hack job and it shows in my finished product. I get bonused after my jobs for doing a great job and I get paid in piece work, so if I am or am not the fastest it doesn't really matter to the MAN, that is does matter to, the timber buyer. He likes that I cut quality timber low to get him extra footage and the land owners love that it doesn't look like their land was slashed and looks like crap afterwards.

You however, are convinced that you know what is best for me and my situation and you base this on some photos of a few trees I cut throughout the day and some videos. You don't know any of the business end of my operation, which is why you provide me with completely valueless advice like "get a loader", which is a completely worthless piece of equipment for me. You tell me to high cut veneer trees and other trees along trails or future campsite areas that the land owner doesn't want to look like it got "logged", guess what, it doesn't look like you came in and "logged it", it looks like I logged it and that is why I am promised that I will be going back there next spring and cutting 270 more acres of some very, very nice White Oaks for the landowners parents.

Did getting a loader get me that next 270 acres of work??? No
Did cutting high stumps get me that next job??? No
Did letting trees fall where they wanted to (not using wedges), because it was faster, get me the next job???? No

If anyone here doesn't care what the other says, its me, cause you certainly don't sign my checks or provide me with plenty of work, when everyone else is sitting or trying to get a job.

Later,

Sam

Oh provide a link of where your working pics are, as that thread is too long to bother with finding just your pics. I did see that you just started running a stock 660 in 2008, and had just discovered its "power", LOL. Boy what a veteran you are, LOL, and I don't mean that as I'm better than you (or that I'm a veteran), but it sure puts into perspective some of the advice you condisendingly give me when I owned my own truck, trailer, two skidders and several saws and had logged in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois before that, and could go back and get more work if I happened to enjoy the 10+hour one way trips to work.


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## Metals406

Slamm said:


> I know perfectly well, how many people it takes to run a loader, been on jobs with them.????? I have two skidders and one wheel loader. That is what I get paid to have on the job. I won't and don't get paid to have a loader on the job. So you giving me advice with everyone of my posts, when you don't know the situation is getting kinda stupid. Again, what the heck would I do with a loader???? I don't even have to run the wheel loader or load logs. All I do is cut and skid, period. I don't care about anything else, I don't get paid to do anything else. I have never said that I am the fastest, or even fast, if so find it, because I have worked with some very fast cutters and I don't put myself anywhere near their bracket, never have and will be the first to say so.
> 
> I have never said my 441 is the fastest, in fact I have on most occassions explained that if it was slower I wouldn't care because of its other benefits ......... many other forum members on here have shown that the 441 isn't much if any slower and in modded form it can be faster .... They all have figured this out this year, 2010. I had that figured out 2-3 years ago, and I like my 441's (modded of course, LOL). I mostly like and need the anti-vibe do to breaking my left hand and writst, more times than you have broke any of the bones in your body and breaking my right hand and wrist quit a few times ........... 15 years of riding bulls will do that to a body.
> 
> As to me convincing myself that I am something, I'm not. I not really sure what I am convinced of in the speed department, when I need to cut fast and the timber is right (low quality), I can cut fast and when I need to put trees where I want them and cut them low, I slow down and do that. I am convinced that I am a quality cutter that doesn't do a hack job and it shows in my finished product. I get bonused after my jobs for doing a great job and I get paid in piece work, so if I am or am not the fastest it doesn't really matter to the MAN, that is does matter to, the timber buyer. He likes that I cut quality timber low to get him extra footage and the land owners love that it doesn't look like their land was slashed and looks like crap afterwards.
> 
> You however, are convinced that you know what is best for me and my situation and you base this on some photos of a few trees I cut throughout the day and some videos. You don't know any of the business end of my operation, which is why you provide me with completely valueless advice like "get a loader", which is a completely worthless piece of equipment for me. You tell me to high cut veneer trees and other trees along trails or future campsite areas that the land owner doesn't want to look like it got "logged", guess what, it doesn't look like you came in and "logged it", it looks like I logged it and that is why I am promised that I will be going back there next spring and cutting 270 more acres of some very, very nice White Oaks for the landowners parents.
> 
> Did getting a loader get me that next 270 acres of work??? No
> Did cutting high stumps get me that next job??? No
> Did letting trees fall where they wanted to (not using wedges), because it was faster, get me the next job???? No
> 
> If anyone here doesn't care what the other says, its me, cause you certainly don't sign my checks or provide me with plenty of work, when everyone else is sitting or trying to get a job.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam
> 
> Oh provide a link of where your working pics are, as that thread is too long to bother with finding just your pics. I did see that you just started running a stock 660 in 2008, and had just discovered its "power", LOL. Boy what a veteran you are, LOL, and I don't mean that as I'm better than you (or that I'm a veteran), but it sure puts into perspective some of the advice you condisendingly give me when I owned my own truck, trailer, two skidders and several saws and had logged in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois before that, and could go back and get more work if I happened to enjoy the 10+hour one way trips to work.



Don't let the kid bother you Sam. . . Ted gets a few beers in him, and often inserts foot into mouth. He's a young, testosterone filled logger -- what else would you expect? 

I do think he was just trying to be helpful, and provide you with some ideas, kinda brainstorming. 

You do a fine job, and this thread is heading for "Epic" status. . . Just keep on posting pictures and videos, and let the rest run off you like water on a ducks ass.


----------



## 056 kid

I was sober this time

I guess ur right, I dont know your situation, i thought you where a logger. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
Here are some "high stumps" LOLOL

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135133&d=1272572911

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135131&d=1272572751

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134855&d=1272397857

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134854&d=1272397849

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134281&d=1272062089


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## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Don't let the kid bother you Sam. . . Ted gets a few beers in him, and often inserts foot into mouth. He's a young, testosterone filled logger -- what else would you expect?
> 
> I do think he was just trying to be helpful, and provide you with some ideas, kinda brainstorming.
> 
> You do a fine job, and this thread is heading for "Epic" status. . . Just keep on posting pictures and videos, and let the rest run off you like water on a ducks ass.



The young, testosterone filled logger part, I kinda had a grasp on already, LOL. I think, I have a decent little operation here that I have put a lot of thought into and while it might not be everyone's cup of tea, it sure seems to work great for me and this area, and those that pay me, sure like it. So its kinda annoying for everytime I post a pic, I get advice on how I should swing cut and learn how to walk around a tree and cut faster, cut riskier, get a loader or get a log truck and whatever else I'm suppose to do????? What the heck, LOL. I just wanted to post some pics for others to see, I wasn't and haven't said I am the end all, be all.

Everyone likes different things, like the running two little skidders instead of one bigger one. It sure seems to pull out a lot of trees in one day, 100+ regardless of size and sometimes length of the skid, and the narrow 8 foot width means I can sneak around a woods and not crush everything inbetween, but I do understand that some people rather the one large skidder route, and there are advantages to that in certain terrain. We log hills mostly and the trees average 250-350 per job. This river job has many cherry bark oaks and pin oaks that are getting 600-700 board feet in the first cut, then there are a lot of smaller 20" soft maples that are coming out and they are pretty tall so we are still hitting our 250 BDFT average.

I can get a nice 518 CAT/ grapple with a brand new motor and under 5000 hrs and newer tires for $10-11K, it would be nice to have that bigger skidder for these very large trees, but the 540B's still pull them out and they are really fast and nimble on the 400bdft stuff. Either after this job or this winter, I'm actually going to stuff some 130-150 hp engines into the 540B's and I think that will really be the cats meow, because I don't need bigger skidders for the typical timber we cut, but more power (like with the saws) is always very handy indeed.

I tried the pulp deal again, at first on this river job. Pulled it out, but after we cut it all up and measured it and figured the pay versus the pain in the butt it is to deal with, it just simply isn't worth it to me. Could I make more cutting pulp ............ yes, but at what cost. I want to make several hundred dollars an hour and I simply can't do that screwing around with pulp wood, or at least going any distance or effort at all to get it. Not saying it isn't a great idea for making money or extra money on a job, but for the profit margin I'm looking at maintaining for the effort, pulp is about worthless and is just not worth it to me, and still I do want it to work or be profitable, but for us the numbers don't add up to being worth it ..... so right now little effort is extended toward cutting or pulling pulp wood. I actually have a potential "new guy" that only wants like $8-9hr and he can run a saw pretty good, that I was thinking about have him pick through the rubble and pull out the pulp and make his own landing of it ............ just a thought, and it will probably go away, soon, LOL.

Well now I have to go count some trees and make a plan for skidding out some very nice 36-40" soft maple, ash and hickory's that we are cutting tomorrow and work on increasing (or possibly fixing some problem) on the hydro pressure on the wheel loader to lift the large 20'+ long lengths of cherry barks and pin oaks that have to be loaded this week onto the trucks. Its never been real strong about lifting the very large logs, so I've got some time to get it fixed or "modded", LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## porch monkey

My daddy had a coupla sayings:

"If it aint broke...dont fix it"

"Dance with the one that brung you"

Anytime I've ever strayed too far away from those...I've ended up losing my ass. Looks to me like Sam is smart enough to know that


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## jeepyfz450

Great pics and vids slamm. looks like a top notch operation to me. I personally like the way you keep things simple. Not lots and lots of equiptment and employees. you know what makes you money and obviosly know how to make it work. Your stumps and bucking work looks great. I like the big landing with logs laid out. the logs are clean and straight makes bucking so much easier.


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## palogger

hey slam looking good there, dont blame you for not wanting a loader. did u happen to notice the fiber pull in kids third link?


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## atvguns

Great thread keep the pics and vids coming


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## Slamm

Thanks for the good words.



palogger said:


> hey slam looking good there, dont blame you for not wanting a loader. did u happen to notice the fiber pull in kids third link?



LOL, yes, I did and quite frankly, that is the stuff that I am talking about. When you cut like that, it happens, huge time consuming notches, that close up too quickly and then either split the front of the butt off or pull the fiber in the middle. I worked with another cutter that cut notches similar to that and he was always pulling the sides out of the trees whenever he tried to "swing" them. When I started in Wisconsin the two sawmills we sold to mostly would not have liked that at all, and those that cut like that didn't work for them.

I know lotsa cutters, cut just like that with the 1/3 of the stump notches and I really never understood it. They landblast the bore cut as being slower, yet they are double cutting a lot of the same wood with that huge notch, which is a real time consumer, and it quite frequently leads to fiber pull a lot of the time, because you can't possibly get a good 90 degree notch without cutting half the butt off. Cut like that on the hickory's around here and you will slab the front off of the butt, but that doesn't bother some people because that is how they were trained or shown and they don't or won't stray from it.

I see that notch style a lot in the PNW trees/stumps and I guess the softer wood lets you get away with it more or nobody cares about getting every last bdft out of the stump/butt, because they have a lot of high stumps and a lot of fiber pull on them. I know we have been cutting a lot of soft maple and man the things you can get away with that soft wood is amazing, LOL. You can do everything just about wrong and it still ends up working or looking okay, LOL. Soft Maple is my new favorite tree to log, LOL.

I'll try to get some more pics of the trees we have been cutting. I worked a few hours today and got 23 huge hickory, ash and soft maple down. We are going to be running two skidders and two cutters tomorrow, so the wood will be coming out pretty nicely. I wanted to get a head start on the grapple skidder, because he was going to start real early in the morning using the lights on the machine as the trees in this area are all way over the contracted 20" mark and it now looks like a parking lot with some stumps in it, so he can work in the dark pretty safely.

Didn't get the valve work completed today so, I'll be messing around with that in the next couple of days. I got a 5000 psi gauge from a neighbor and made an adaptor I can use to stick the gauge into the pressure line and then go try to pick up some huge tree and spike the pressure and then adjust it up a couple of hundred psi, so we can load these larger logs onto the trucks. These bigger, longer logs are going to be mine mats, which is great, as that is less bucking up due to the longer lengths ........... these railroad tie lengths suck, LOL, too many little pieces to buck, but we do what we gotta do.

Not sure how much longer we are going to be on this job. We were told we could go back and cut more trees in the lots that a previous logging contractor left, due to it rained or flooded or something and they left a lot of 30"+ pin oaks yet seemed to have cut the little stuff?????? They aren't rotten or hollow cause we checked a few, but there are already skid roads and all the little trees are cleared out so there is nothing but easy pickins on the big stuff.

Here is topping one tree next to a nice stump of a tree that was already pulled to the landing. 






In this scenerio with the soft maple with smaller tops and arrow straight, we are trying to keep the skidder right on the cutters butt pulling trees because they break so easy we can't just drop them over onto one another like the oaks can handle. These soft maples just bust up upon landing on anything but open dirt. Cut quite a few hackberrys around this area too, ..... don't know what to think of them. Some are good and some are hollow, some are solid on the bottom and then the top 2/3's are hollow. The sycamore is also about 50/50 hollow, standard practice on them is shoot a bore shot into the side and check it first, cause too many of the nice looking ones are worthless. The hickory and maple have been solid and the ash really, really nice. In this part of the timber there aren't any oaks, that is/was the other side of the property and we are done with that except for skidding out about 50+ trees along a 1/2 mile stretch.

Later,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

Cutting a 1/3 deep narrow faced notch takes less  time than cutting down the grain in my opinion. furthermore, I have found the game of logging type open faced notch can peel a stump if it has much side lean. That poplar is quite big and took me maybe 2 minutes to cut. all from one side. I have worked mostly on mountain sides, ones where if you drop a saw, it goes down down a long time, where timber is clear, tall and have crowns that lean alot! 1/3 notches can do there what the shallow ones will only dream of doing. . 



Also is it me, or did you pull the sap wood on that log in your picture with you in it?


----------



## Slamm

I forgot this one, tree urination, and no I did not drop that tree, against the tree I am cutting. That is some dead maple that floated down the river and got stuck against the tree that is peeing on my saw. For those concerned about my pulp wood operation, I will be dragging both trees out for pulp wood.




Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Also is it me, or did you pull the sap wood on that log in your picture with you in it?



Which pic is that, and I could probably tell you, but honestly, sap wood, LOL. Hey, they have an airport around here if you want to just simply fly out here and walk around advising me on what and how I should do things. I usually have a couple of ATV's at the landing so you won't have to due much walking, just ride around and yell at us, when we screw up. I could even bring some folding chairs and a chalk board if you want.

You post 5 pics and one has 2+ feet of pulled fiber and you're going to jump me about sap wood, LOL. I guess, if nothing else you have a certain entertainment value.

Thanks,

Sam


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## 056 kid

2 feet? When you tear a 6'x2''x4'' piece odd the outside of a log that's a little more severe I think.

Ditto on the entertainment, I & I'm sure others got a big kick out of you not knowing how to re-rail a chain without removing the clutch cover. On that alone, the credibility factor kind of went down the drain LOL. 

Your alright for flat country though I guess


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> 2 feet? When you tear a 6'x2''x4'' piece odd the outside of a log that's a little more severe I think.
> 
> Ditto on the entertainment, I & I'm sure others got a big kick out of you not knowing how to re-rail a chain without removing the clutch cover. On that alone, the credibility factor kind of went down the drain LOL.
> 
> Your alright for flat country though I guess



LOL, nice edit there. If your fiber pull is/was "the size of two drumsticks" as you put it and then removed it, then those drumsticks are either attached to a dinasour or your stump is about 12" wide and its not a big tree ............. take your pick.

As to my pulling "6'x2"x4"" out of the side of a tree, I've probably done it at some point, show me the photo though, cause, I'd like to see it, as it seems your ability to measure things is a bit off.

Later,

Sam


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## 056 kid

I did indeed move it, because it was inaccurate. the picture above the tree getting the saw wet. . . It looks like a piece is missing, doesn't look like a limb either, then it looks like it goes on down the log & out of the picture... Could just be where the tree slipped off the back off the stump and then nicked bark off when the log hit the stump. . .


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> I did indeed move it, because it was inaccurate. the picture above the tree getting the saw wet. . . It looks like a piece is missing, doesn't look like a limb either, then it looks like it goes on down the log & out of the picture... Could just be where the tree slipped off the back off the stump and then nicked bark off when the log hit the stump. . .



Man you are a post editing son of a gun. That part of the tree is about 30 feet up that particular tree, as in it is the middle of the tree and that isn't its own stump in the same photo. If I ripped that much wood out of a tree, I would have fired myself. I don't know what that is, but it isn't anything regarding stump pull, cus that tree is huge and long and that isn't even anywhere near the butt of it. The tree that, that stump was attached too is long gone to the landing.

Please give up, its annoying,

Thanks,

Sam


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## 056 kid

Give up??


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## slowp

Slamm said:


> Which pic is that, and I could probably tell you, but honestly, sap wood, LOL. Hey, they have an airport around here if you want to just simply fly out here and walk around advising me on what and how I should do things. I usually have a couple of ATV's at the landing so you won't have to due much walking, just ride around and yell at us, when we screw up. I could even bring some folding chairs and a chalk board if you want.
> 
> You post 5 pics and one has 2+ feet of pulled fiber and you're going to jump me about sap wood, LOL. I guess, if nothing else you have a certain entertainment value.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sam



That's my job, except I prefer to walk and yell at people. Actually yell to get their attention then we discuss things tactfully.

Hey, keep putting the pictures on. 

Keeping a small operation with paid for equipment is a good thing right now.
The outfits around here that have done that, are still going although some are part timing it. It seems like the medium sized ones, who had just tried to get bigger, are the companies that failed in the last couple of years. The big boys are still going, but they have a lot of paid off equipment too.

If you enjoy what you are doing, are comfy with your methods, make enough money to support yourself, and keep getting jobs, more power to you. 

Also, we like low stumps out here.  Unless it is a cut tree marked unit. Then, if the timber markers/painters got their stump marks too high, the stumps need to be higher. Timber markers can be a pain sometimes...


----------



## bitzer

Honestly man, you have a great operation going. I was just thinking why limit yourself though. Obviously you've got your ways and they produce, but try a few things different, they may surprise you. I'm talking strictly falling here. Its amazing how much lift you'll get out of a solid single bit with a lot less effort. All the time you are thinking you are saving on the face you are spending on the back cut. That shallow of a face puts the fulcrum way out in front, which means a lot of unecessary wedging. That poplar with favorable lean for instance that you beat with a stick. You should have been racing that damn thing to the hinge instead of putzing around. Everyday in the woods is a learning experience. You can keep the stumps low enough too with different faces. Stay on the saw and cut the hinge if you like. Whatever. I'm always open to new/different techniques and I think every faller should be. Just more tools in the bag for the tree/situation. Really not trying to be a #### here and not saying my own #### don't stink. When you put yourself out here you will be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Take it as it is. I think you've got a sweet set up and do a hell of a good job. 

I am just curious, why didn't you post this thread in the logging forum where it should be? Not in the place where the majority cut ten trees a year (or in a lifetime for that matter).


----------



## Slamm

I'm tired and will just put up some quick pics of the last few days.
Maybe I'll try and go back and narrate some of the pics in a day or two. Its raining right now, so I don't know what we'll do tomorrow, maybe just cut and leave the skidders off, since it might be too wet to pull anything.


----------



## Slamm

Landing after a lot of bucking up.














Truckers a coming, it rained last night so we had to make sure they could make it into the landing:


----------



## Slamm

One of the guys, cutting a large oak:

















Here is a nice white oak.





Another White Oak, decent butt, but pretty rough up higher.


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## Slamm

Here are some different trees hitting the ground:


----------



## tjbier

Wow Sam thanks for sharing!
Nice opperation you have going, no matter what others say.
and that is some big hardwoods you have there, only wish we had em up here, trees that big here are few and far between.


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## Slamm

Here is a new 441R that my buddy just did up for me. Sure want to use it, but it looks too good to mess up. I just got it tonight, so I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.
I'm not real keen on the full wrap, but we are cutting higher stumps on this lower quality job with the rotten stumps and such. So it will for sure be handy here.

The paint job is House of Colors, candy something or other and its some multi-layer paint job deal with a very tough clear coat. We'll see how it runs tomorrow.

Testing it against the stock 441 will now be a problem since just this morning the stock 441 had its back handle crushed, so I'll just add it to the collection of 441's that are sitting at Terry's to get hopped up.









Later,

Sam


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Slamm said:


> Here is a new 441R that my buddy just did up for me. Sure want to use it, but it looks too good to mess up. I just got it tonight, so I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.
> I'm not real keen on the full wrap, but we are cutting higher stumps on this lower quality job with the rotten stumps and such. So it will for sure be handy here.
> 
> The paint job is House of Colors, candy something or other and its some multi-layer paint job deal with a very tough clear coat. We'll see how it runs tomorrow.
> 
> Testing it against the stock 441 will now be a problem since just this morning the stock 441 had its back handle crushed, so I'll just add it to the collection of 441's that are sitting at Terry's to get hopped up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam



:jawdrop:
:jawdrop:
:jawdrop:
Are you on dope?!?!?!? Don't take it in the woods!!!!!!


----------



## Slamm

Meadow Beaver said:


> :jawdrop:
> :jawdrop:
> :jawdrop:
> Are you on dope?!?!?!? Don't take it in the woods!!!!!!



Yeah, I know. He kinda goes over board like this every now and then. Its a gift for some work I got him earlier this year. but ........... I really need to use it and I really don't want to, LOL!!!!!!

Life is full of problems, we just have to make the best of it, LOL.

I can't wait to run it, he did a lot of work on it and to it. I wonder how long it will be before it rides on the back of a skidder, LOL. Would it be bad to run it covered with bubble wrap.

Sam


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## wigglesworth

Holy Crap Sam!!!!! You werent kidding about the paint job. 

Sucks about the 441 geting crushed. You seem to be making a habit of that lately.


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## Slamm

wigglesworth said:


> Holy Crap Sam!!!!! You werent kidding about the paint job.
> 
> Sucks about the 441 geting crushed. You seem to be making a habit of that lately.



Yeah, well this time it was the new guy, LOL. I would be more mad, but it was just a screw up. The two cutters Bert and Craig were tag teaming some maples that wanted to fall into a bean field. So they where setting them up and I was coming along and knocking them back into the woods. One of them needed to move the ATV and didn't pick up the stock 441 and well, it happened. He got a good butt chewing, and then got to run the BB660 for the rest of the day, as punishment. He was saying something about his hands being numb tonight, LOL.

He did pretty good today, cut 33 trees today and they all pretty much sucked in one way or the other. Bert cut 19 of those various monsters or other such novelty trees .... like double trees that had the fork about head height or higher.

I slipped that free gear oil into the bar oil jugs and it isn't working for the record. The chains are getting hot and sagging. I might try some STP in it tomorrow, but otherwise free clean 50W gear oil is going to get checked up as a no-go/failure. Before we were using some $4.99 per gallon crap and we had zero problems. Bert, ran two tanks of gear oil through the 660 and in the oak trees he keep saying "Something is not right about this saw, but I can't figure it out." LOL, I told him about the gear oil and he said get me something else that works. So off to Tractor Supply tomorrow morning, for some expensive $6+ per gallon oil ............ or some STP. I did a search and someone on here mixes 1-3 bottles of STP per 5 gallons of oil. I guess, if I get the oil for cheap or free, I could spend a little on some STP and see if it works. We sure are going through a lot of it.

We'll see,

Sam


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## tlandrum

well you know im not a big 441 fan but sam thats one sick puppy,id have to get a different set of plastics to run on it for woods duty. but is is nice none the less. on a side note i know exactly how it is to get a saw smashed by an employee. my last mashed saw came on the new guys 6th tree. needless to say there was never a 7th.


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## 2000ssm6

That paint job is crazy! Very nice.


----------



## Slamm

tlandrum2002 said:


> well you know im not a big 441 fan but sam thats one sick puppy,id have to get a different set of plastics to run on it for woods duty. but is is nice none the less. on a side note i know exactly how it is to get a saw smashed by an employee. my last mashed saw came on the new guys 6th tree. needless to say there was never a 7th.



Yeah, I wasn't very happy about it, but honestly this kid could probably smash one a week and I would still keep him. He has never cut trees before, but has been around it a little, sorta knows how to run a saw and doesn't know how to sharpen his own chain ........... sounds great doesn't he, LOL.

His first 6 hours on the job he drops 23 20-28" Pin Oaks and not one pinch, and never need a chain sharpened. He hasn't cut less than 25-30 (24-40") pin oak trees in a 6-9 hour period and he never hangs up and he is in one crappy section full of riffraff that the river floated up. Today he learned how to set up trees to fall over the opposite way or to get pushed over by the skidder and he walked about 1/2 setting up trees for me to push over. He runs 3 miles a day with his Marine dad and he is just a great 22 year old kid, we love him. He is the kinda hard worker that you go through 20-30 worthless idiots to find. He just screwed up today is all, it happens to everyone, but the good ones learn from it and don't/won't do it again.

As to the saw, I do have some other plastic for it, actually I have a busted rear handle stock 441 that I could swap the plastic and side cover with. This thing is pretty nice. I wish I had weldled up a trunk on the back of my skidders to hold the saws, better, thats where they get beat to heck. I have to run the loader tomorrow and the grapple skidder so I won't get to use it much. I'll try to clamp something with the loader and make a few whacks with it. Terry said it tied to maybe slightly edged out his best 460 that is all hopped up. So we'll see. I am pretty busy but will try to get to Jeremy's to cookie cut sometime with it. It will take about 20 tanks to get broke in good, but it supposively runs pretty hard right now. I started it in the dark tonight and revved it a bit, it really seems like it is angry at something. Starts easy too, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

2000ssm6 said:


> That paint job is crazy! Very nice.



LOL, well we got some good use out of your 441 until today. I'm not the best at tuning saws, but I finally had it running about as good as a stock 441 is going to run. 5 hours of bucking up bigger trees gives one some time to tune in the cut, LOL.

Thanks, again for the saw.

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Ha Sam,do ya wont to sell the artwork on that 441.


----------



## wigglesworth

Slamm said:


> Yeah, I wasn't very happy about it, but honestly this kid could probably smash one a week and I would still keep him. He has never cut trees before, but has been around it a little, sorta knows how to run a saw and doesn't know how to sharpen his own chain ........... sounds great doesn't he, LOL.



Sounds like a winner....

I do know where you can get a pretty good running 046 to replace it with


----------



## Slamm

Well got the Cat 910 wheel loader's hydro pressure turned up some (I modded it, LOL). It can lift a pretty good sized log now.









Here is my only pic of the new 441R in wood. We took some video's of it cutting down some pin oaks, but I had forgot my phone and we did it all on Karen's phone and she is trail riding horses now so can't upload them, but needless to say, my cutter and I are extremely impressed. 




We aren't use to the full wrap handle yet, as can/will be obvious in the videos as we kept using the top of the bar when we could have used the bottom, but habits are hard to quit. We are running the saw rich for now and will lean it up after a few tanks, but it makes a lot of power. Never even ran it today as we had two skidders running all day trying to get caught up to the cutters. One of the "use to be" workers decided to not check the air filter cover and it fell off and split the upper radiator hose. That was a few hour setback that we didn't need, but all is going good, and we see the light at the end of the tunnel. The farmer cut the corn and beans off, so we can proceed with the cutting of the last big pin oaks that want to fall into the fields, then drag the tops into the woods with the grapple and leave them. Monday morning we get to see if the landowner wants us to cut some of the largest trees on the property. They are along a fence line and are simply huge. There is a double that probably has 1,500-1,800 bdft in each side, depending on what measures have to be considered as a result of the fence we will see if it is worth messing with them, otherwise we will be done pretty soon. We're going to work tomorrow morning (Saturday) after catching our horses, tie them up at the landing, log until noon and then go trail riding up in Shawnee National Forest in the afternoon. I'll try to get some pics of that.

Later,

Sam


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## Slamm

I'm pretty sure we cut and skid the last of the trees today. Truck are getting loaded. The timber buyer is busy, so I get the "thrill" of loading the trucks, LOL.

We've been pretty busy lately and not much time for the photos. The 441 is running very nicely and we droppped some trees with it a few days ago, its fast enough that it can hold its own against a really nice modded 660, its running rich right now and I leaned it up 1/4 turn and it ran faster yet, we're getting some tanks through it to break it in, but I told Terry if it didn't run any faster than it has been, I would be very happy. We're waiting on some rings from Bailey's to show up, and then I will have another one in a few days.

Here is a nice load of mat logs, the driver figured he was "heavy" ..... I figured he was right:





Later,

Sam


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## Burvol

Slamm,

We have softwoods here as hard or harder than your hardwoods. ZERO humidity in the summer. Dry ass heat. East of the Cascades it gets worse. The really soft wood is the west slopes of the cascade range to the coast. Out west we cut a certain way because it works. The stumps look good on a lot of timber you see because there is some bad ass timber fallers out here. Sure there are some hacks, but cutting tall west coast timber on our ground, brush, snags, ect. and throw in the wood is very tall, you are gonna have to find some fine talent to consistantly do it right. West coast techniques just work. Ask Joe, Mr. Hammer logging. He is using west coast style rigging in the highlead, and in log cutting. Square chain the whole bit. People were telling him he couldn't do some of the stuff. I laughed. He said they eventually admitted they didn't know ####. You come off as an ass hole (ego driven but seems to play it off as awe-shucks) to me, but I might be overly sensitive, so don't hate LOL. I don't hate or dislike you at all. I don't however understand why you hate Ted so much. He is a heck of good faller and good guy. He was excited about your thread and just wanted to join in. Hope you two can make up 
I am certain you do a fine job in leaving the stand in tact, which is very cool. Props to you for doing what you do. Your still out to lunch on skip chain being the chit :biggrinbounce2:


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## PLAYINWOOD

Burvol said:


> Slamm,
> 
> We have softwoods here as hard or harder than your hardwoods. out to lunch



Must be different than BC because I've cut there and know a guy that supplies modded work saws to California/Oregon/Washington so things must be different for you.
BTW blocking up some 24 to 30 inch dry Hard maple, Beech and red oak today, 2 of us 16 inched about 6 to 7 cord in 3 hours with 6 very well modded saws and quite frankly the dry larch/doug fir/ and poderosa pine I cut with stock saws in BC were EZPZ.My modded stuff would have killed it.

That maple today on 20 inch bars over the top for 24 to 30 inch wood was taxing for motors and chains.
30 inch Doug fir you don't even have to "feather" it ,just push with the saws I own.

They make bowling alleys, butcher blocks and good furniture out of hardwood for a reason.

As I mentioned earlier ,I was in BC this year staying in a condominium that was for sale, bragging about the "alder hardwood flooring"
at dark 0-thirty I congregated interested family members and performed a test in the closet.With a kitchen knife.
Not good...

Our pine/poplar would be the same.

JMHO


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## 2000ssm6

Burvol said:


> You come off as an ass hole (ego driven but seems to play it off as awe-shucks) to me, but I might be overly sensitive, so don't hate LOL. I don't hate or dislike you at all. I don't however understand why you hate Ted so much. He is a heck of good faller and good guy. He was excited about your thread and just wanted to join in. Hope you two can make up



When I spoke to Sam on the phone, he was far from an azz hole. He seems confindent with his work and his "boss" agrees. The pics tell the truth also. If he is getting the job done, who is someone else to tell him how to do his job? I'm sure Sam would love to have all kinds of equipment to help him make more $$$$, who would not? He has an operation most here would kill to have.

Moral of story: Let the guy do his work and enjoy the pics. If you want to talk ####, find a Stihl vs. husky thread.


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## Slamm

Burvol, thanks for the response, don't know what to tell you on the hardwood thing, unless you have "softwood" that is so hard like our hard maple and hickory that will rip the tips of the chisel chain right off in the first couple of inches on the notch. I don't really care if anyone else likes how I do it, I know I have tried many different combinations and but plenty of testing in and still retest stuff like the chisel and semi chisel on different jobs. On this river side stuff with silt all on the bark you can't cut two trees in a row without the chisel chain cutting crooked..... Do you still want me to use chisel or full comp and spend that much longer sharpening it? I've got a good new cutter that gets sent to the woods at 6:30am and he comes back at 12pm and he is cutting dirty, silty pin oaks, red oak and hickory in the hills. He doesn't even know how to sharpen a chain and he can go for that whole time with one semi-chisel chain and a spare. The kid can go hours and hours and never get pinched or stuck, so how is giving him chisel chain or full comp going to do him any better? Its not.

I don't know who "Ted" is ..... ?056? I guess, I don't like being told I should cut a riskier way that blows the trees up and is a higher risk for me when what is the benefit??? I want all stumps cut cleanly and level, not stump jump one tree and then split the next and pull 1.5' of fiber on the next and then tear the side of the tree out on the next tree. I have work because I cut good clean stumps/butts. I don't have work because I am fast. I also don't make any money cutting pulp ..... closer figures show that it cost me money and it is a complete waste of my time and my workers time. I wish it was different but it isn't. No amount of internet experts can change that little fact for me. Last week the local pulp buyer was shut down for 1 week, and this week they are open the pulp truck picked up two loads of pulp in one day and sat in line for God knows how many hours just to get that in, that will not make me money. I can skid trees for $100's per hour and various individuals think and are trying to convince me that pulp is where the free money is at ..... well, it isn't..... not for me. If my income was dependent on pulp in any way, I would/will quit. I'm not sure how much money it would take to convince me that I need to be sitting in some log truck for 4 hours straight waiting and hoping that they will open up and take this trash off of my truck, but I can assure you that whatever it is they are paying isn't enough for me .......... so call me high society if it makes them feel better, but pulp sucks for me in this area doing what I am doing. It might be great for someone else.

I'm not sure why being convinced of some of these little facts and then expressing these little facts to those that don't know my situation or think they know the whole story based on some photos of problem trees or things that go or went wrong, makes be the horses rearend, but if that is how you view it thats fine by me, you don't sign my checks, your just some internet person that is looking at my photos and thinks he knows the whole story, so while I might choose to debate you, I certainly don't really care if you or Ted like how I do things, case in point, your wood is softer than my wood, and that is why I like to use semi-chisel, skip tooth chains. I have run them side by side on the same model saws and guess what??>>>> I could cut more wood with the semi chisel chains. If you can't comprehend that then I don't know what to tell you.

At this point in the thread, I don't really care, I put some pics up of the goings on and if some of you want to think that I am in for certain bankrupcy as a result of "bore cutting" or using semi-chisel/skip chain or not wanting to cut pulpwood or running modded 441's then I guess, I am headed for bankrupcy, but from my point of view. I have zero bills, all of my equipment is paid for and I can and do buy more when I want and need it, I can go from one worker to six with a few phone calls and I am happy and those that are both experienced and in-experienced think I run a simple and efficient operation, that is simply smooth and without much drama. I guess, I find it hard to want to change that or hard to find much inspiration to want to change much if anything about it. You feel that makes me arrogant or a horses rearend, well, that will have to be my price to pay, that someone on the internet that lives on the west coast doesn't like me or worse yet thinks I'm a hack logger or whatever, I could really care less. I'm sorry to you, that Ted did not convince me that whatever or however I get the trees on the ground is somehow disadvantaged enough to warranty any addition risk or in need of any additional speed. If that has hurt your feelings, then again, I am truly sorry, but I have logged with and behind those that cut like Ted and well, and while certain techniques can get more trees on the ground quicker, I always have to ask .... At what cost? and the cost is usually crappy looking stumps (which is a representation of your logging work and quality that lasts for years after you are gone), pulled fiber, split or compromised butts, tree placement that is less than perfect (which effects the skidder effort and surrounding timber) and increased risk to the faller and skidder operator ............... so what were/are the benefits of whatever methods of falling trees that others were talking about?? They are supposively faster, well I don't have a problem with speed, I don't remember ever asking for help on how to cut trees faster or that I was in finacial trouble due to my "slow methods" or equipment, yet (because we are on the internet) I will certainly get lots of great advice because, of course everyone knows how to do it, but me, the person that is actually doing it.

Thanks again,

Sam


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## 056 kid

Slamm, YOU are the one putting up pics of un-level stumps, If they where my stumps I wouldn't even put them on the web.

I am younger than you slam, but assuming you have been cutting in west Kentucky all your career, I have been in timber that is far more technical and dangerous than anything you have ever seen. Every forester that i have talked to had nothing but good things to say about my work. Never had the Govt complain and they can really be anal. 


I had a big presentation written up for you but I sat and thunk for a second and realized that there is no point.

Your attitude puts me in the mind of a stubborn drunk...


some quotes of Slamm's from the 441 VS 460 thread of recently. Very peculiar.. 

"Typically I view chainsaw operation of any kind, as a form of loud, irritating, hard work, that I wish I could get over with as soon as possible."


"Then there are those, that get so hung on tradition or "stuck in a rut", that they can't seem to "modify" their minds or bodies to the obvious benifits of modern technology when and where it is presented"


"LoL, I dislike logging enough the way it is"

The difference in you & me. A guy that hates to fish but has to will never be as good as the guy that loves to fish and has to. The man that hates to fish's hatrid will carry him far. But the man that loves to fishe's love will make him a prodigy. . .

Edited just for you Slamm.


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## Slamm

Thank you, 056, as usual, I really appreciate your input. I promise that today I won't bore cut anything and I have enlarged several of your most recent stump photos as visual reminders of what I should be striving for. Now that I know you are the $h)t I will make sure I PM you with all my questions regarding cutting and logging strategy.

As to my love or lack of, for logging, I make money several different ways and in the last 5 years, logging isn't even in the top 3 for amount of money that I have made for the effort. I'm out to make money for my family and spend time with them. I can't help it that I can (at times) make a lot, more money doing things other than logging, its not my be all, end all. I like to make money that is my top priority, I can and do make good money logging, therefore I try to be as efficient at it all the way around. I judge how good I am at something by how much money I can make at it, therefore I run it like a business, not a love affair. If it works I do it or use it, if it doesn't I don't keep on using it or doing it, just because my dad and dad's dad did it that way. It either makes money or it doesn't and that is how I decide on things on their own merits. I don't love anything in particular except my wife, everything else I do had better make money or I quit it and find something else to do that is more productive. If logging slows down or the price falls I can and do, do something else. My machines are paid for and if they sit, its no big deal to me, because whatever else I'm doing is more productive, right now, logging is working out just fine, so that is what I'm doing. Sometimes investing is hot, sometimes bull riding is hot, sometimes the machine shop is hot, sometimes the insurance work I do is hot, I only "play" whatever is going to make the money, I can't afford to be in love with anyone thing to a point of cloudy vision. So you can have the I'm a more experienced logger trophy for the year or the rest of your life, I could care less, because that isn't how I judge my success, by perfecting some cut that is known for splitting trees and uping the risk factor of my day for a few seconds of speed. I like to run the 441 as long as its within a second of the 460 or 7900 that is all I care about and it always has been and its smoother and more fuel efficient, I've never really cared and have stated that I don't care if it is the fastest. With the amount of damage to my hands and wrists due to 15 years of bull riding, I'm not really interested in "not" feeling my hands for the next week or month just because some traditionalist says the 460 is better or faster or the 441 is for wu$$ies.

Do to some of the extracuricular activities that I have been apart of for around half of my life, logging and its various "dangers" aren't really even very high up on my list of exciting things to do, so while for many or most they find some sort of life fulfilling moments with the logging and chainsaw operation .............. I don't. Therefore I can typically view various chainsaw and logging operations with a sort of clear head since I'm not the one needing it for some "adrenaline" fix ..... its just work for me. Again if that makes me an A$$ or you the super logger of the year, I don't care. You don't sign my checks and you didn't pay for the things that I have.

I simply put some photos up of the goings on of my operation, they are typically take not at the peak of my productivity for obvious reasons, therefore for you to look down you nose at me just about everytime I put some photos up and think you are or could come here and do the quality that I do, faster, based on some photos and videos that represent about 5% of what goes on in a day, makes you not only arrogant, an A$$ and a typical young know it all cutter, and you know what, I don't fault you for it, I'm sure I do the same, but as I have indicated before its just annoying for those that live here and are actually doing it to have someone as good as yourself constantly belittle our operation, when it is quite obvious we are successful and everyone from top to bottom here is happy and good at what they do. I have never said I or my operation was the best, but we are good and our final product shows it, if it takes me a day or two to finish up a good stand of timber, I'm fine with that, because I am the one that is getting asked to come back and cut it again 10-20 years from now. When the landowners friends come and look at my work they say,"I thought it would have looked worse than this." , because typically it does with hacked, tall stumps and tops everywhere........ but I don't always cut like that or need to. On this river side job it looks like a logger logged it ... and I know it, why because nobody cares about it, in a few months the river will flood it and whether I directionally fell the trees or not doesn't really matter, so we speed cut them, walk around the tree and such. You see me bore cut some quality trees or do it because I want to stop at a certain point and make a video or my kids or wife is standing nearby and suddenly you take it upon yourself to direct me to faster cutting techniques and living my life more dangerously, LOL, you don't know the first thing about danger or living life more dangerously, and I say that knowing you are a cutter, LOL.

So I don't dislike you 056/Ted, I just find you annoying, and have said as much before.

Later,

Sam


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## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Slamm, YOU are the one putting up pics of un-level stumps, If they where my stumps I wouldn't even put them on the web.



Any stumps that you think are unlevel are do to camera angle and not because they actually are, I know which ones you are talking about and it is how I had the camera sitting on a log nearby. I put god knows how many photos of my stumps up and you put up 3-5 photos and the third one has pulled fiber in it, LOL. Please.



> I am younger than you slam, but assuming you have been cutting in west Kentucky all your career, I have been in timber that is far more technical and dangerous than anything you have ever seen.



Again, assumptions, you know what they say about those things. I put some photos up and explain what I am doing .......... you are just simply bragging and I'm not really sure why??? No one is attempting to discredit you, I am simply not interested in your opinions anymore, as I have found them to not be any more profitable at the end of the day or year, than what I currently have been doing. I have explained this to you and still you feel you are better than me. Do you understand any of this? I know its not getting through, and I attribute that to your youth, I guess.

Sam


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## little possum

Keep up the good work Sam


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## 056 kid

All I am trying to convey now is Im proud of my work.

Everyone does things different, I thought maybe you could use some input,(I like it when others give it to me) is all. 

your annoyed,m Im annoyed, nothing has been accomplished. . .

You think every "other" way to tip a tree "will bust a log" and that irritates me because it completely false. . . . . .

Yea I put up a few pics, one with some fiber pull. I dont have time to snap endless photos at work, I dont think my camera would last more than it already has out there, so dont assume all I do is pull fiber & slab wood please. .


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## chopperfreak2k1

i might not agree with you on the 441 vs. 460 debate but i get that you have a great operation for yourself and you're doing it the way that is best and most profitable for you. please keep posting the pix and vids as some of us are learning a bit from them. thanks Sam.


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## Meadow Beaver

056 kid said:


> You think every "other" way to tip a tree "will bust a log" and that irritates me because it completely false. . . . . .



Yup, loggers around here are the same way, "if you don't bore cut every tree they'll barber chair", yeah blah blah blah. I haven't even bore cut enough times in 4 years to be able to count on both hands.


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## Burvol

Harvesting trees is a money maker for you. Good deal. I comend you for loving your family and supporting them. 

Yes, I am hopeless. I love to work in the timber industry. I guess I was rooted in it, but also love it. I lost some good years drunk, but I don't regret all of it. You can't. That's what AA meetings are for. Beat yourself down for life. I figure I am already dead over and over, so all the living I have now is bonus material. My home life is rough watching someone slowly die (I don't pitty myself), but I find what I need in the woods. My release. Physical conditioning. Mental concentration. I take pride in being in shape, eating good and being sober, and kicking ass on the stump. We are just proud of what we do out west I guess. Two feet in, all the way.


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## HARRY BARKER

Burvol said:


> Harvesting trees is a money maker for you. Good deal. I comend you for loving your family and supporting them.
> 
> Yes, I am hopeless. I love to work in the timber industry. I guess I was rooted in it, but also love it. I lost some good years drunk, but I don't regret all of it. You can't. That's what AA meetings are for. Beat yourself down for life. I figure I am already dead over and over, so all the living I have now is bonus material. My home life is rough watching someone slowly die (I don't pitty myself), but I find what I need in the woods. My release. Physical conditioning. Mental concentration. I take pride in being in shape, eating good and being sober, and kicking ass on the stump. We are just proud of what we do out west I guess. Two feet in, all the way.


and people out east arnt proud?


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## 056 kid

I started back east & I am very proud.

As for the joker that started this thread, not so much.


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## Burvol

HARRY BARKER said:


> and people out east arnt proud?



No, we are loggers. Not hobby loggers.


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## awful knawful

Keep the pics and vids comming Slamm! I'm really enjoying them!
Shawn


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## GoRving

Great pics. Thanks!!


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## tlandrum

i guess if you have so many different occupations then that is why your not a full on logging outfit. i still cant figure how you lose money on paper wood but its your choice. but the most of the forestry folks i log for would can you in a heart beat for leaving the paper wood . thats leaving a good resource on the ground to rot,what i see as being wasteful. it also adds to forest fire fuel. your a cut and run kind of logger whether your a fast cutter or not. you go in take the best cuts from the timber you fall and run to the next job just taking the cream from each job. around here folks dont care that your stumps are pretty . its about using all the resources that you have at hand and not choosing just what pays more and is fast and easy. you go in and make all the money you can with as slim a crew as you can get by with. thats the same goal i have except for one thing, i use all the tree that is salvagable. i put my resources to full use. thats why i get more work. i make the land company or sawmill all the money thats there to be had. i may not be making bank on the pulp wood but im not letting it rot in the woods. and for the falling all your trees in one lump ,that may fit your way of logging but thats just a pile of trash that will take longer to go back to the ground. if you cant make money from the wood that your already handling than your not doing something right. fall your trees however you feel comfortable getting them on the ground. i could care less what saw you use or how you put it to use. i just would like to see loggers either all in or all out. not just there while the money is good. if your gonna log be a damn logger not a fly by night outfit thats gonna bail at the first hint of it slowing down. i know you say youve been in for 5 or 6 years of logging. your a seasoned pro ,right... ive just been in it for 20 some odd years what do i know???? according to you i am some 25 year old with a skidder you do a lot of telling folks what works for you but from what i see your a small minority that can get away with the cut n run and stay busy. it looks like you have a good start on a real logging company. pony up and finish the job.


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## Turkeyslayer

I personally enjoy this thread although I could live without all the drama.

Like sands through an hour glass, these are the..........................


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## bcorradi

Burvol said:


> No, we are loggers. Not hobby loggers.



Huh didn't know that. My best buddy growing up (in northern, mn) has been logging the last 23 years as a 3rd generation logger. I'll have to enlighten him the next time I see him. Someone on the internet said your just a hobby logger. 

Also, wth does your previous drinking habits have to do with this thread? Thats great that you find solace in the woods now that your sober, but it still doesn't have much if any to do with this thread.

This thread is about one guy giving us a snapshot on how he runs his operation out east. Most of us find it interesting and informative that he has spent the time giving it with us. The facts are he is comfortable and profitable using the techniques, equipment, etc. that he is using. How can you really belittle him for his techniques, equipment or sharing it with us without having the full picture of his operation?


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## 056 kid

tlandrum2002 said:


> i guess if you have so many different occupations then that is why your not a full on logging outfit. i still cant figure how you lose money on paper wood but its your choice. but the most of the forestry folks i log for would can you in a heart beat for leaving the paper wood . thats leaving a good resource on the ground to rot,what i see as being wasteful. it also adds to forest fire fuel. your a cut and run kind of logger whether your a fast cutter or not. you go in take the best cuts from the timber you fall and run to the next job just taking the cream from each job. around here folks dont care that your stumps are pretty . its about using all the resources that you have at hand and not choosing just what pays more and is fast and easy. you go in and make all the money you can with as slim a crew as you can get by with. thats the same goal i have except for one thing, i use all the tree that is salvagable. i put my resources to full use. thats why i get more work. i make the land company or sawmill all the money thats there to be had. i may not be making bank on the pulp wood but im not letting it rot in the woods. and for the falling all your trees in one lump ,that may fit your way of logging but thats just a pile of trash that will take longer to go back to the ground. if you cant make money from the wood that your already handling than your not doing something right. fall your trees however you feel comfortable getting them on the ground. i could care less what saw you use or how you put it to use. i just would like to see loggers either all in or all out. not just there while the money is good. if your gonna log be a damn logger not a fly by night outfit thats gonna bail at the first hint of it slowing down. i know you say youve been in for 5 or 6 years of logging. your a seasoned pro ,right... ive just been in it for 20 some odd years what do i know???? according to you i am some 25 year old with a skidder you do a lot of telling folks what works for you but from what i see your a small minority that can get away with the cut n run and stay busy. it looks like you have a good start on a real logging company. pony up and finish the job.



Nice post, i never knew he had only been in the biz for only 5 or 6 years but that puts things in to place. . . . . . . . . . . . 

Like you I am completely miffed by the pulp wood deal. If you cut a nice log, you just got over 1000 at least at LEAST of good pulp. 

That and alot more makes NO sence. . .


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## 2000ssm6

Burvol said:


> No, we are loggers. Not hobby loggers.



Hey Bur, got any of these in the cabinet?







I like the massive timber in Warshington and Commie Cail but ya'll are giving us the images of how the guys act on AxMen.


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## slowp

There's Farmer Loggers. The loggers in this area will see a guy that they don't know show up for work with his pants tucked in his rubber caulks. They will spit, wipe off the mouth, and say, "He looks like a Farmer Logger." It is not a favorable term, but is a common one. 

You can wear your pants tucked in and not be a Farmer Logger. A very good hooktender does so when the weather turns, and nobody calls him that. He also wore a white hard hat to annoy the crew. 

The guy I call a hobby logger, has been logging all his life, but now seems to log only when a fishing or hunting season does not interfere. He takes days off to go fishing. Then logs a few days to make some money for fishing. He knows what he's doing, but has slowed down. I kind of like that idea.

The term logger can vary. A guy who has been a faller for 25 years and grew up learning from his dad who fell timber told me he was not a logger, he was a faller.
So, to each their own. 

Me? I am pursuing a career change to a Hobby Forester.  Maybe be a Farmer Skier.


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## Burvol

2000ssm6 said:


> Hey Bur, got any of these in the cabinet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the massive timber in Warshington and Commie Cail but ya'll are giving us the images of how the guys act on AxMen.



You don't know me.You strike me as a whiney type though. I am just merely implying HE HAS OTHER MONEY MAKERS. What he said, right? Not a full timer in the biz, cause he'll do what ever is "hot". I don't really give a chit either way. The hobby logger bit is just kind of knee jerk, but sorry you are so upset. I am not a mean person, I just have to scratch my head at AS once in a while. People either will blow someone for a used 460 with the rope haning out (you) or they will cut a tree down and say they are a "feller". Ted was kind of being honest, and Slamm acted like he was being mean. I see his point. If you want to scatter wood across the field like a county gtg for a 1/4 mile that's his choice. It's America, do what you want! As I say. The fact that you even watch that show...hmm.


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## Burvol

slowp said:


> There's Farmer Loggers. The loggers in this area will see a guy that they don't know show up for work with his pants tucked in his rubber caulks. They will spit, wipe off the mouth, and say, "He looks like a Farmer Logger." It is not a favorable term, but is a common one.
> 
> You can wear your pants tucked in and not be a Farmer Logger. A very good hooktender does so when the weather turns, and nobody calls him that. He also wore a white hard hat to annoy the crew.
> 
> The guy I call a hobby logger, has been logging all his life, but now seems to log only when a fishing or hunting season does not interfere. He takes days off to go fishing. Then logs a few days to make some money for fishing. He knows what he's doing, but has slowed down. I kind of like that idea.
> 
> The term logger can vary. A guy who has been a faller for 25 years and grew up learning from his dad who fell timber told me he was not a logger, he was a faller.
> So, to each their own.
> 
> Me? I am pursuing a career change to a Hobby Forester.  Maybe be a Farmer Skier.



Exactly. It's not a bad thing. Touchy touchy...


----------



## RandyMac

2000ssm6 said:


> Hey Bur, got any of these in the cabinet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the massive timber in Warshington and Commie Cail but ya'll are giving us the images of how the guys act on AxMen.



What a pip and be carefull what you call some of us Californians, you sound like you have a chanker on the brain.


----------



## Burvol

bcorradi said:


> Huh didn't know that. My best buddy growing up (in northern, mn) has been logging the last 23 years as a 3rd generation logger. I'll have to enlighten him the next time I see him. Someone on the internet said your just a hobby logger.
> 
> Also, wth does your previous drinking habits have to do with this thread? Thats great that you find solace in the woods now that your sober, but it still doesn't have much if any to do with this thread.
> 
> This thread is about one guy giving us a snapshot on how he runs his operation out east. Most of us find it interesting and informative that he has spent the time giving it with us. The facts are he is comfortable and profitable using the techniques, equipment, etc. that he is using. How can you really belittle him for his techniques, equipment or sharing it with us without having the full picture of his operation?



Wow, the fact that you would even mention me, if at all is nuts. Thanks. You clearly missed the context of that comment. I have bretheren on the east coast, good fallers, good loggers. Good people.


----------



## johncinco

Well after two days off and on I made it through all 12 pages. Could have been a "great" thread, if I could go in and delete all the BS that showed up. 

Sam you seem to have figured out how to "work smarter not harder". You have your work figured like a business. What makes money stays, what does not somebody else can do. You also seem to fall into the Work Hard Play Hard category of guys. I can appreciate how you see things. I like to go fishing and riding myself, and let somebody else worry about the not-for-profit work. 6 hours at $100 an hour is still better than 8 hours at $50 an hour -more expenses. Some people catch on to that, others well they will still be working for someone else or headed out for another day long after they wish they could have quit. 

Never try to teach a pig to sing, its wastes your time and annoys the pig. 

Keep posting up, its some good reading and pics. More "pink" too, that's hilarious. I had to show that to the girlie. 

Going to have to take my saw over to my buddy with an auto body shop and let him paint one up now. Thats awesome.


----------



## bcorradi

Hobby logger, hobby farmer, etc is doing it without expectation of being a primary source of income. Thats what I believe the definition is anyhow.

I'd classify slowp's definition of a hobby logger to be the definition of a part time logger.


----------



## banshee67

its a shame what happened to this nice thread made by a guy who is proud of HIS business
how many of you that are trashing his operation run your own companies?
its pretty easy to show up to work and take orders then go home and tell everyone how great you are at doing one thing and one thing only.
it takes a lot more than being a good tree faller to run a successful business like Slam is clearly doing... i think many people are missing that part.
how many of his critiques in this thread could start, and successfully run their own business? judging by some of the broken english and incomprehensible statements coming from some of these peoples keyboards, id say not many.
but then again, fancy things like english and all that learning stuff dont mean much to someone who can run a chainsaw correctly, right?
thats why slam runs his own business and you work for someone else cutting trees down when and where you are told to ... no offense intended, but the ignorance is just too much to watch without commenting sometimes
the guy is here sharing pictures and videos from his successful logging company which he runs and owns, id be proud too.

ps: one of the ugliest, most crooked face cuts ive ever seen posted on this forum was posted by a 'pro', from the pnw, posting in this thread... just saying


----------



## Burvol

banshee67 said:


> its a shame what happened to this nice thread made by a guy who is proud of HIS business
> how many of you that are trashing his operation run your own companies?
> its pretty easy to show up to work and take orders then go home and tell everyone how great you are at doing one thing and one thing only.
> it takes a lot more than being a good tree faller to run a successful business like Slam is clearly doing... i think many people are missing that part.
> how many of his critiques in this thread could start, and successfully run their own business? judging by some of the broken english and incomprehensible statements coming from some of these peoples keyboards, id say not many.
> but then again, fancy things like english and all that learning stuff dont mean much to someone who can run a chainsaw correctly, right?
> thats why slam runs his own business and you work for someone else cutting trees down when and where you are told to ... no offense intended, but the ignorance is just too much to watch without commenting sometimes
> the guy is here sharing pictures and videos from his successful logging company which he runs and owns, id be proud too.
> 
> ps: one of the ugliest, most crooked face cuts ive ever seen posted on this forum was posted by a 'pro', from the pnw, posting in this thread... just saying




Don't bother me a bit. Jesus Christ is the only one I know of who could make a perfect _anything_ everytime. But hey, I cut thousands upon thousands of sticks a year, I'm sure one or two look a little less par than others. The fact that you even talk about a damn tree period is funny. I cut more by lunch than you do in a year, but I am not here to start a pissing match. I was originally saying 056 had some good points and Slamm got all defensive. All the wannabe loggers chimmed in like I am an arrogant know it all, and here we are. I posted a barber chair once.  LOL I own my own business and I know what it takes to make one run. I am also a college graduate that finished school at night, every damn day after cutting logs all day. Did that routine for the last 2 years of it. What matters more than anything is how much Grit you got there boy. You don't see the angle from which we are coming from, but you act like you know how I should behave. When someone wants to show off how much coin they make and LEAVE WOOD behind it's wasteful. All loggers aren't idiots you #### ing ass wipe. Please referesh me with the picture as well.


----------



## banshee67

Burvol said:


> Don't bother me a bit. Jesus Christ is the only one I know of who could make a perfect _anything_ everytime. But hey, I cut thousands upon thousands of sticks a year, I'm sure one or two look a little less par than others. The fact that you even talk about a damn tree period is funny. I cut more by lunch than you do in a year, but I am not here to start a pissing match. I was originally saying 056 had some good points and Slamm got all defensive. All the wannabe loggers chimmed in like I am an arrogant know it all, and here we are. I posted a barber chair once.  LOL I own my own business and I know what it takes to make one run. I am also a college graduate that finished school at night, every damn day after cutting logs all day. Did that routine for the last 2 years of it. What matters more than anything is how much Grit you got there boy. You don't see the angle from which we are coming from, but you act like you know how I should behave. When someone wants to show off how much coin they make and LEAVE WOOD behind it's wasteful. All loggers aren't idiots you #### ing ass wipe. Please referesh me with the picture as well.



hey man , easy there, slow down, that last "ps" in my post wasnt even directed towards you at all, none of the post was, its just kind of "generally speaking" , 
and the last bit it was more or less a joke towards one of the pics i saw in your logging thread the other day, that was posted against another users will(so it seems),of someone who clearly isnt a faller like yourself, ill leave it at that, just jokes.. cmon man, calm down!
i dont drop nearly as many trees as you do, no way! and nowhere near as big either, but you damn sure dont drop more by lunch than i do in a year, although mine are probably considered llittle pecker poles to you, not that it matters, its fun either way , its not a contest , this thread shouldnt be a contest either, but they always turn into that it seems
i never called loggers dumb or any of that other stuff you assumed i was saying , and saying to you.
the way you jumped on me calling me names really didnt even deserve a response, but you got one because i dont want you to think im a douche talking #### to you about your career, when that wasnt even close to what was happening.. it didnt need to go as far as you took it, not at all. all i was saying is that slow is running a susesful business, hes his own man, let him do his own thing, at first a suggestion is a suggestion, but then quite a few people start getting nasty.. it makes no sense, anyway... , , ,


----------



## bitzer

And all of this from trying to post some tips and ideas. 

Slamm, Directional falling can be done in ways other than yours and with about as much safety(danger) involved, even in hardwoods. You can even keep the faces low too and if done right without any pull. Boring is a neccesity in hardwood, not a catch all though. I don't even remember the last time I had a sound tree take off 90 degrees from my intended direction like one in one of your vids. Thats the kind of stuff that got me when I first made a post about falling technique. Again not speed, effciency. Hitting the holes so there is less damage to new growth. With how thick the new growth can get around here if I couldn't swing a tree I'd end up with about 1000 spring poles and really beat the #### out of things. The guys I work for don't really give a #### about the stumps being a foot off the ground, its the next generation of timber that concerns them. 

I just don't get a guy that would post so much of his work and then not own up to it almost like it doesn't matter.


----------



## 2000ssm6

Burvol said:


> You don't know me.You strike me as a whiney type though. I am just merely implying HE HAS OTHER MONEY MAKERS. What he said, right? Not a full timer in the biz, cause he'll do what ever is "hot". I don't really give a chit either way. The hobby logger bit is just kind of knee jerk, but sorry you are so upset. I am not a mean person, I just have to scratch my head at AS once in a while. People either will blow someone for a used 460 with the rope haning out (you) or they will cut a tree down and say they are a "feller". Ted was kind of being honest, and Slamm acted like he was being mean. I see his point. If you want to scatter wood across the field like a county gtg for a 1/4 mile that's his choice. It's America, do what you want! As I say. The fact that you even watch that show...hmm.



Sure........right. You strike me as a full of #### type. So I can take whiney.

btw, left 460s long ago. If it ain't a 044 or 440.....


----------



## 056 kid

056 kid said:


> Nice wood!
> 
> Now with the help of a loader, you could have that spread consolidated on about 100 feet squared. Food for thought, food for thought..
> 
> Keep the pics coming...



Here is one of my original statements.

Very nasty and belittling as you can see.:spam:


----------



## 2000ssm6

RandyMac said:


> What a pip and be carefull what you call some of us Californians, you sound like you have a chanker on the brain.



That was not an insult. Your anti gun inhabitants will keep me far in the South. Beautiful country though, almost as nice as the hills of NC and VA.


----------



## Slamm

bitzercreek1 said:


> I just don't get a guy that would post so much of his work and then not own up to it almost like it doesn't matter.



Don't really know where to start, but I will ask, what did I "not own up to"?????

Are you trying to say that I have posted a photo or video of something and either explained it differently or lied about something in the photo or video??, because I would sure like to know what it is I don't or won't own up to, its getting plum deep in here now.

I post photos, of good trees, good stumps, a clean timber when I'm done, clean logs, happy customers and buyers, and everyone is making money and happy, and the only people who seem to have the problems or see the problems in some internet heros or armchair quarterbacks. I agreed with several of the points made by several posters, and they are valid points, except for one minor detail ............ it won't or doesn't work under these circumstances for various reasons that has been explained before.

Like the pulp thing, its great I guess if you make $36 per ton ......... but I don't. I might make $12 per ton. So I'm not broke enough to waste another several minutes per tree limbing and cutting up the most worthless wood, that is going to be coming out of it, when I sure don't make money at it, the landowner isn't making any money with it and the timber buyer isn't making any money on it, so if you guys think that pulp is such a money maker that I'm an idiot for not pulling it out, tell you what, I'll let you know each job I'm on and you can bring your equipment and drag all of it out that you want for free, come get it all. But if I have to work all week in the woods and all I make is $1,800 off pulp or that is a good check, I would not be interested in logging as the pay per hour at that rate is not very good, especially if I have to now purchase a log loader and log truck to haul it, that is two more pieces of equipment to pull out the cheapest most worthless wood there is in it, but I'm the idiot ...... also the pulp mill is closed today through monday this next week. Bet I make a killing on that pulp this week RIGHT!!!! LOL... The pulp truck has picked up loads in the morning sat for 3-4 hours waiting to be unloaded and then picked up again at say 1pm and didn't get back until 5:30pm, that is not how I want to try to make money, sitting in some pulp truck line????? But I'm the idiot. I should be going right now to get a bucksaw, knuckle boom loader and log truck, RIGHT?????

I guess, one way, I might put it is all or most of the loggers around here that did it the "old fashion way" are gone, dead or bankrupt. Most are/were cheats, liars and did what appears to look like years later to be hack jobs of cutting and directional falling. So some here will have to excuse me if I don't take an immediate turn and begin changing my program toward something is even remotely resembles "traditional" or macho or super fast ways of cutting, but those various methods while they may be great if all I was, was a cutter, but I also get paid to skid, and I get pissed if my skidders have to work one ounce harder because of dumb falling or placement or if a cutter wouldn't "waste" a little time with a wedge to get more angle on the fall/direction if it would help.

What really gets me about a lot of this is, I simply posted some photos of what goes on. I never said it was the best or correct or smartest or "hey everyone log like me", but some of you have taken it upon yourselves to "guide" me into doing things or methods or techniques that I probably already do if the situation allows it or can do, but obviously choose to not do it that way for whatever reason, most because I have found that it doesn't pay or make a hill of beans worth of difference at the end of the day or week or year, or better yet, maybe, just maybe I left a backstrap on it so that I could stop cutting and walk over to the camera, turn it on and then walk back over to the tree and cut it loose and have it drop and I not get killed or the tree on split all on digital video, but no, most here have to just figure that I'm some dumb crap that at best cuts 10 trees and struggles to get those out of the woods and then needs help paying my bills and getting another job. I guess, I'll just chalk that up to the natural negativity that is in most individuals.

I like those that give the advise, like hey, you have a sweet operation and looks like you are doing good, but if you would just add a little more risk and danger into your life, then man you would really see some better results, LOL. Honestly its really hard to take some of you seriously...... and pretty much I don't.

It takes a certain gall to look at another individuals operation and without knowing what in the hell is going on, repeatedly advise him on how he should be running things ............... when it appears that there is little room for vast improvement and the minors thing are just that, minor and more preferrential than anything.

Call me hobby or partime, I don't care, I cut trees and make money and everyone around here is happy about it. If it offends you that I referred to this thread with logging in it, I appologize and will attempt to refrain from usint that acronim in anything related to myself. I guess, I don't get any "tradition" points, but then I haven't ever recieved any checks that had any denominations of "tradition" on them. So you guys can have your traditions and all, you guys are "loggers", and I will take the money and we'll see how that works out in say 5-10 years for each family.

Pic below of one of the farther landings, the tree size in this landing is pretty good. Red Oak, Cherry Bark Oak, White Oak, a couple Elms, Soft Maple, Hickory (smooth & shaggy), Pin Oak and one Pecan tree. Note the blue staining of the metal in the really large log, it looks like a black eye. Obviously there is/was some fence or metal in that thing. We ended up having to butt off about 4 feet to get it to clean up, hate to lose the wood, but don't want to send metal to the mill.
There are 43 logs in this landing, notice the guy bucking up on one of the logs, they are pretty big.










Hammer on big log.










Later,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

I didnt read your text, I dont want to get all frustrated. .

Nice looking dog though! 



I will say something though. You smashing a 441 costs wayyy more than me pulling some wood on one tree. I pull wood ocasionally, I think any timber faller that said he didnt was lying. Just like guys bragging that they have never had a tree open up on them. . . The actual story begind that poplar is I was cutting about 300 feet above the said tree when I thought Ide go down alittle into the flat and try to get some wood on the ground for the grapple skidder really quick. I ended up running out of fuel just as that tree started commiting. I hate to make excuses for my self, but I dont like people bad mouthing my work. I can put top quality timber on the ground with consistency. Chit, what am I even saying this for? 
I never bad mouthed you until you started doing so to me.


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## tlandrum

well sam at 12 bucks a ton i would not put that much effort into it either. i dont see how the pulp mills around there even get wood at those prices. my logging contracts say that i have to mess with it. although , it does pay me a lot better to do so. when our mills buy a tract of timber the tonnage is figured on the timber value and most foresters around here consider everything above the first stopper(limb) to be pulp when they cruise a boundry.so if i left all that in the woods id get canned fast. but i do see your point at 12 bucks a ton it is not really a good income to expense. when i figure my pay for the week i dont figure the tonnage as pay i use it as bonus money and to pay operating cost. i use the footage that i get paid as paycheck money.depending on the timber some weeks i actually make more off the tonnage, especially when every tree you drop is hollow,rotten or doty. just today i cut 5 trees in a row that were at 36-50" at the stump and only got one log with 300 some odd feet in it and the rest was junk. when you log the type of terrain i do in east tn its pot luck on the timber. usually in the hollows and deep draws you find good timber but as soon as you hit a bench or flat it will go to crap. the timber im in now is all fire scared ,any way sam. cut safe, have fun ,dont take this crap so seriuos. and i can see why you work the way you do as you should be able to see why i work the way i do. more or less you cut how the forester prescribes,like it or not or be out of work. im kinda fond of being able to afford to enjoy life a little so i cut as im asked.as do you. so my dogs out of this fight i see your point and ill take my ms460 and go home lol


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## 056 kid

12.00 is low. but its about 500.00. If the mill is close and it if the ground is flat, I would think there would be some $ to be made. 

AS I have said, in an average day in average timber(hardwood). A guy can cut 3 loads of logs and end up with close to if not two loads of pulp wood that came exclusively out of the tops of the log trees. We all know that there are plenty of wood trees that get cut with the hardwoods too. Skidders have to have room to traverse through the woods, not all big trees can go down without damaging smaller trees and as a pro faller, you damn sure dont leave snagged up crap standing there to die. . . .

But I cant say for sure, things are different everywhere right?


----------



## tlandrum

right now i am cutting 2 loads per day and getting an average of 1 load of pulp from it. and right now i am the faller and the skidder operator(seems to be a shortage of timber cutters around here). my wife is driving the log truck and learning to run the knuckleboom ,now thats funny to watch. but at just being the two of us i am putting out about 20-40,000 ft a week and 75-125 ton of weigh wood. do the math on it and i dont know that i want to get any more help. after expenses i am doing very ok,but it sure is heading into wet winter weather already so the bank roll will have to hold me over till it drys back up. next week its gonna rain every day. when skidding almost a mile its stops production, guess ill port a couple of saws while it rains.


----------



## bcorradi

Ted - why in the hell are you going to college? It sounds to me you have the ability to make it rich in the woods? I assume burvol is rich and owns his own business...why aren't you two partners. It is unfathomable on how much you two could make working as a team.


----------



## 056 kid

Sounds like you need a truck driver and a cutdown man or two. then you can run things and the wife can be home keeping the books up to date and the jobs lined up.

Cutting & dragging two loads of logs a day is good, I assume you do some loading as well since your wife is still learning.


----------



## tlandrum

i can load a tandem in 20 minutes so its no biggy to have to stop and load the truck, now her loading the truck takes about 2 hrs and gets a 1/3 less wood on it but shes atleast doing it. i fired my truck driver for having beer in my truck , my last timber cutters were hacks and one was a saw muderer. im looking for help but not real hard. if a cutter comes along i would hire him but im not out looking.


----------



## 056 kid

bcorradi said:


> Ted - why in the hell are you going to college? It sounds to me you have the ability to make it rich in the woods? I assume burvol is rich and owns his own business...why aren't you two partners. It is unfathomable on how much you two could make working as a team.



Thats a really good question. If the buisness where like it was 20 years ago Ide have every little thread of all Im worth wrapped up into either timber land or equiptment to harvest the timber, ideally both. Might not be much but ited be something. But things arent like that any more. This is not the time for someone to start out.
It is however a good time to purchase new equiptment, especially if you are all payed up and have good credit. . . its a "buyers market" right?
College makes you smarter is why I am going. .


----------



## bcorradi

Ted - the thing we can both agree on is we are both italian, but eventhough I may have been as stupid as you when i was your age I didn't publish my stupidity on the internet.


----------



## 056 kid

tlandrum2002 said:


> i can load a tandem in 20 minutes so its no biggy to have to stop and load the truck, now her loading the truck takes about 2 hrs and gets a 1/3 less wood on it but shes atleast doing it. i fired my truck driver for having beer in my truck , my last timber cutters were hacks and one was a saw muderer. im looking for help but not real hard. if a cutter comes along i would hire him but im not out looking.



Haha, want some help?

Ide think about it if I weren't across the map. .


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## bcorradi

056 kid said:


> College makes you smarter is why I am going. .


Ya I agree...attend for about 15 years or so and then post.


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## 056 kid

O hush, its a web site full of men. 

Im not going to meet my wife here on AS and getting employment is unlikely, so who cares??


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## bcorradi

yeah your definately right your stupidity will not welcome employment.


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## bcorradi

However, like I said before you and burvol seem to have it figured out so if you can get the credit and get the equipment you guys should be rich.


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## 056 kid

So calling me stupid a bunch of times must be helping you out?

If not you can quit it.......


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## bcorradi

Sorry your the one doing it not me.


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## 056 kid

Burvol & I are not in the biz for money. I cannot speak for him, but falling timber is just something that I take passion in doing. . 
look back, I am not a perpetrator here so there is no reason to abrasive. . .


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## bcorradi

ted - you may not be a bad guy, but geezus...if you haven't managed more than a sports card collection in your life do you think you can really down on a guy for posting pics of a profitable business?


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## bcorradi

LOL you guys must be hobby loggers then right?


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## 056 kid

Sports cards? Assumptions are something aren't they? When I make them I at least try to keep them in close relevance with the things that I DO know.

No I have never managed a business. 
As far as you & the state & federal government are concerned.


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## bcorradi

well we all know it evidentally isn't profitable enough to forgo going to college. Going to college is beneficial i won't deny that, but don't pretend you have a ton of pointers for a guy that has done business if you have never owned one yourself.


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## 056 kid

I don't think owning a business has anything to do with me trying to help someone out. Im not forging his signature on the Devils documents. 
It is advice, maybe its it terrible advice, maybe its good. Its up to him weather he follows it or ignores it.


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## bcorradi

ok thats fair, but reduce your adimacy on how much you think it will truly benefit his operation if you have never owned one before. You really don't know his environment or his clientele.


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## little possum

Yay Sam


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## wigglesworth

little possum said:


> Yay Sam



HOORAY 044!!!  .......................whoops, wrong thread


----------



## Burvol

*Rich as Hell!*



bcorradi said:


> Ted - why in the hell are you going to college? It sounds to me you have the ability to make it rich in the woods? I assume burvol is rich and owns his own business...why aren't you two partners. It is unfathomable on how much you two could make working as a team.



I am the richest man I know. Good woman that is understanding in my life, good friends, family, killer salmon fishing, good timber. Low wages at the moment but I am better off than at something else. Jasha said it once before, if you have never fell timber out west, you have no idea of the expense. Today's wages are not going up everywhere like they should, or the bushel jobs.

What Slamm is doing is how you make money. Small gypo outfit, good close crew, git er done. Like to do private jobs with my Dad when I can.


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## slowp

group hug!

Then regroup. 

I had an AHA! moment the other day. Here's how important directional falling is on non-skidder, non-flat land. A crew moved in and started yarding.
It was downhill skyline. They were doing great, very little banging up of the leave trees. The unit was a partial cut--a thinning. 

They moved to the last setting. It was felled by a different guy, less experience. The leave trees are banged up. He fell the timber straight down the hill. Dumb me, thought he knew what he was doing. The yarder side owner brought this to my attention.

The light bulb went on. The same thing had happened above, only a different crew. I thought it was because they had to learn how to yard with a unfamiliar machine, but they had started where the fall them straight down the hill guy had worked. Where their yarding was good, was where the professional fallers had worked. The other guy used to fall for a living, the good guys still do it. 

Falling is the first step. If it get screwed up, it makes it hard to do "pretty" and professional logging. You get a hack job for the anti-logging people to point and shout about. We have a lot of those who are watching. 

Logging Humor: It is always the faller's fault. When a leave tree obviously has the bark stripped off from the lines scraping it, nope, that's the fallers that did that.
Disclaimer: This humor does not apply to all rigging rats, just a few I have encountered.

Clarification: A 440 is not used around here by the professionals for falling. They use 460s to use for thinnings. A former old growth faller says that a 440 does not have that extra power that one needs at times. The 440 has been a faithful landing and rigging crew saw. It usually is said to "have a bent bar" at all times when used by them.


----------



## DSS

This is/was a good thread. The man is showing us what he does and how he is doing it. He is working in some very nice timber and seems to be doing a good job.

No, I am not a professional, about as far from one as you can get, so my opinion is worthless, you don't have to tell me.

I'm enjoying the falling pics and learning a bit, and I couldn't give a rats ass if the tops are left in the woods or if a stump is crooked. It seems that if he isn't doing his work exactly like everyone else , then he must be doing it wrong.

Who cares ??? I assume the OP is smart enough to figure out what works for him, and he is sharing that with us. Too bad there is so much BS mixed in.


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## Zombiechopper

this shoulda been a good thread....

too much west coast faller chest thumping hoorah we're the best nobody else knows squat about timber... 



Thanks for posting Sam. I enjoy seeing how you log. Running a business ain't easy takes guts to show everyone how it works.


----------



## little possum

Zombiechopper said:


> Thanks for posting Sam. I enjoy seeing how you log. Running a business ain't easy takes guts to show everyone how it works.


Amen brother ZC!


----------



## wigglesworth

slowp said:


> A former old growth faller says that a 440 does not have that extra power that one needs at times.




Well, well, well.....you tell that old growth faller that he dont know jack. My 044 has lots of power.......

signed,
firewood hack


----------



## Slamm

wigglesworth said:


> Well, well, well.....you tell that old growth faller that he dont know jack. My 044 has lots of power.......
> 
> signed,
> firewood hack



Wiggles, you sell yourself too short, you and I are simply hobbists, lol.

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Some peoples' willingness to urinate all over this thread is great. . . No really. Please keep posting about the size of your member, and how much farther you can spit than someone else. 

I've witnessed a lot of clickish behavior in my time. . . Most of it from High School. Am I in some weird time warp and back in High School?

I'll say something that my mom used to say to me, and it's a saying that's been around a long time -- _*If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.*_

If it's beyond your mental capabilities to be civil, or say something nice. . . Well, just don't hit the enter button.

I was just telling Doug yesterday about Sam and his operation. How much different it was in the hardwoods than it is here. How he decks different, cuts different, and how there were tons of differences between there and here.

I then went on to say how cool it was -- since when is different bad? The dude has a beautiful wife that logs with him for Christs sake!!! How badass is that!?? I'd have a heart attack if my wife said, "Hey honey, lets go logging."

It's obvious to me the man is leading a blessed life, and seems to be very successful on multiple fronts (not just financially).

Give the dude a break, and enjoy his pictures and video for their simplicity.


----------



## jeepyfz450

Metals406 said:


> Some peoples' willingness to urinate all over this thread is great. . . No really. Please keep posting about the size of your member, and how much farther you can spit than someone else.
> 
> I've witnessed a lot of clickish behavior in my time. . . Most of it from High School. Am I in some weird time warp and back in High School?
> 
> I'll say something that my mom used to say to me, and it's a saying that's been around a long time -- _*If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.*_
> 
> If it's beyond your mental capabilities to be civil, or say something nice. . . Well, just don't hit the enter button.
> 
> I was just telling Doug yesterday about Sam and his operation. How much different it was in the hardwoods than it is here. How he decks different, cuts different, and how there were tons of differences between there and here.
> 
> I then went on to say how cool it was -- since when is different bad? The dude has a beautiful wife that logs with him for Christs sake!!! How badass is that!?? I'd have a heart attack if my wife said, "Hey honey, lets go logging."
> 
> It's obvious to me the man is leading a blessed life, and seems to be very successful on multiple fronts (not just financially).
> 
> Give the dude a break, and enjoy his pictures and video for their simplicity.





Very well said.


----------



## slowp

Oh my! Dear Mr. Wigglesworth and Mr. Slamm. Please read my entire post.
I was selectively quoted out of the context. I was not slamming you , (pun not intended). If you reread it, you will see that I stated, *In This Area.* That would be a small area of the U.S. I am not including anywhere north of Mt Rainier, south of the volcanic St. Helens, east of the Cascade crest, or west of I (Interstate) 5. There. I have clarified. May you feel good again. Go and fall many trees with your 440s. They may work fine for you. But it just ain't so here. (*Here* is the area previously defined.)


I have worked in many different geographical areas. What works and is common in one area, would never do in another. One shouldn't take a job in outer Mongolia, and then expect the Mongolians to do as we Warshingtonians do. Nor would I expect you to come to our little area and start telling our fallers to use 440s or the Husky equivalent. 

I did not intend to make Hobby Logger a derogatory term. In fact, if you read that post carefully, you would see my admiration for a guy who can work and still take time to enjoy other pursuits. 

Farmer Logger is considered a slightly derogatory term. I don't know why, but it is. In *our area*. *Here*. I will not apologize for that. It is a fact. Just wear your pants legs UNTUCKED in boots. Then you won't have to worry.

Now, please take a deep breath, then exhale and continue to post. But perhaps try to read a bit slower or try for better comprehension before replying.


----------



## chopperfreak2k1

Metals406 said:


> Some peoples' willingness to urinate all over this thread is great. . . No really. Please keep posting about the size of your member, and how much farther you can spit than someone else.
> 
> I've witnessed a lot of clickish behavior in my time. . . Most of it from High School. Am I in some weird time warp and back in High School?
> 
> I'll say something that my mom used to say to me, and it's a saying that's been around a long time -- _*If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.*_
> 
> If it's beyond your mental capabilities to be civil, or say something nice. . . Well, just don't hit the enter button.
> 
> I was just telling Doug yesterday about Sam and his operation. How much different it was in the hardwoods than it is here. How he decks different, cuts different, and how there were tons of differences between there and here.
> 
> I then went on to say how cool it was -- since when is different bad? The dude has a beautiful wife that logs with him for Christs sake!!! How badass is that!?? I'd have a heart attack if my wife said, "Hey honey, lets go logging."
> 
> It's obvious to me the man is leading a blessed life, and seems to be very successful on multiple fronts (not just financially).
> 
> Give the dude a break, and enjoy his pictures and video for their simplicity.




excelent post, right on the money!


----------



## Slamm

slowp said:


> Oh my! Dear Mr. Wigglesworth and Mr. Slamm. Please read my entire post.
> I was selectively quoted out of the context. I was not slamming you , (pun not intended). If you reread it, you will see that I stated, *In This Area.* That would be a small area of the U.S. I am not including anywhere north of Mt Rainier, south of the volcanic St. Helens, east of the Cascade crest, or west of I (Interstate) 5. There. I have clarified. May you feel good again. Go and fall many trees with your 440s. They may work fine for you. But it just ain't so here. (*Here* is the area previously defined.)
> 
> 
> I have worked in many different geographical areas. What works and is common in one area, would never do in another. One shouldn't take a job in outer Mongolia, and then expect the Mongolians to do as we Warshingtonians do. Nor would I expect you to come to our little area and start telling our fallers to use 440s or the Husky equivalent.
> 
> I did not intend to make Hobby Logger a derogatory term. In fact, if you read that post carefully, you would see my admiration for a guy who can work and still take time to enjoy other pursuits.
> 
> Farmer Logger is considered a slightly derogatory term. I don't know why, but it is. In *our area*. *Here*. I will not apologize for that. It is a fact. Just wear your pants legs UNTUCKED in boots. Then you won't have to worry.
> 
> Now, please take a deep breath, then exhale and continue to post. But perhaps try to read a bit slower or try for better comprehension before replying.



SlowP,

I was just playing with Wiggles, cause he called himself a firewood hack, LOL, now that is low, LOL. I wanted to up his self-esteem to the rank of, at least, a hobbist.

Anyway, no need for apologies from you or anyone else to me anyways, now Wigglesworth may need some sympathy due to the slamming of his 044.

As to the Farmer Logger thing, while I am the son of a farmer, I take no offense to this term. As I call it "Farmer Cutting a stump" for those that leave huge notched, pulled fiber, slanted backed stumps that are waist high and none of the cuts ever match at all, LOL.

Heres some landing pics from today as the logs are sorted, stacked and many loads have been leaving steadily. The pulp mill is shut down until at least Monday, which completely sucks because I need to have my cable skidder and the loader trucked (together end to end) up to East of Belleville, IL for another bottom/wet job, that we are going to try and squeeze in before the water gets to the dirt and we can't work. The timber buyer has had this timber on contract for over 10 years and there have only been about 3 times for a few weeks each that anyone could have logged it with wheeled skidders and at those times the different loggers were busy with other jobs. I have hunted and rode horses around this silver creek bottoms ever since I was little and it is almost always wet, so we will see what we can get done, before much wet weather makes it impossible. The land is owned by a college and is some kinda research/agri farm. The trees are all marked (I think), three years ago they scaled it on the stump as around 137,000 board feet. The other tracts that have been logged ended up being about 8% over and there has been 3 years of extra growth since this last scaling, at 3% per year growth, so 9% more growth is possible. Going to check the job out Sunday afternoon before my little girls birthday party that is at my parents farm about 4 miles down the road.












Later,

Sam


----------



## hamish

Slamm, your posts are terrific and you pictures are truly amazing (yes even the ones without Karen in them....ok Karen can you talk to my wife, she still cant figure out why i cut wood!) East coast, west coast, United States, Canada, Europe, hell the globe, we all do things a lil differently to suit our conditions, clowns think there is only one way to do it all. Your cutting alot of board feet, and some good sized timbers, I would have to blow the dust of my 24 and 28" bar to deal with that, but where I cut my 576 and 372 spends most of its time with a 16-18" bar. Find me a saw to use in hardwood with a 24" bar running full skip.............will never happen round these parts. Still in these parts loggers use horses and sleighs in the winter way because they work regardless, whereas skidders and such are no good in 4' of snow!


----------



## 056 kid

See Slamm, everyone loves you. Why are you letting 3 or 4 people ruffle your feathers? 

You have got all these cookie cutters happy to the gill. .


----------



## thechknhwk

Typical great forum humor

Guy #1 calls poster "A" an idiot guys #2 & #3 chime in and agree. After further reckoning guys #2 and #3 do an about face while original discenter, guy #1, still believes original poster is an idiot. Throw in several supportive comments from the peanut gallery and everyone is happy again.

I like cutting trees too; wish I could make some real coin off it.

Carry on!!


----------



## wigglesworth

slowp said:


> Just wear your pants legs UNTUCKED in boots.....




LOL....I dont wear boots, or shoes. We log in flip-flops.


----------



## Metals406

wigglesworth said:


> LOL....I dont wear boots, or shoes. We log in flip-flops.



Nice!


----------



## bitzer

Slamm said:


> Don't really know where to start, but I will ask, what did I "not own up to"?????
> 
> Are you trying to say that I have posted a photo or video of something and either explained it differently or lied about something in the photo or video??, because I would sure like to know what it is I don't or won't own up to, its getting plum deep in here now.
> 
> I post photos, of good trees, good stumps, a clean timber when I'm done, clean logs, happy customers and buyers, and everyone is making money and happy, and the only people who seem to have the problems or see the problems in some internet heros or armchair quarterbacks. I agreed with several of the points made by several posters, and they are valid points, except for one minor detail ............ it won't or doesn't work under these circumstances for various reasons that has been explained before.
> 
> Like the pulp thing, its great I guess if you make $36 per ton ......... but I don't. I might make $12 per ton. So I'm not broke enough to waste another several minutes per tree limbing and cutting up the most worthless wood, that is going to be coming out of it, when I sure don't make money at it, the landowner isn't making any money with it and the timber buyer isn't making any money on it, so if you guys think that pulp is such a money maker that I'm an idiot for not pulling it out, tell you what, I'll let you know each job I'm on and you can bring your equipment and drag all of it out that you want for free, come get it all. But if I have to work all week in the woods and all I make is $1,800 off pulp or that is a good check, I would not be interested in logging as the pay per hour at that rate is not very good, especially if I have to now purchase a log loader and log truck to haul it, that is two more pieces of equipment to pull out the cheapest most worthless wood there is in it, but I'm the idiot ...... also the pulp mill is closed today through monday this next week. Bet I make a killing on that pulp this week RIGHT!!!! LOL... The pulp truck has picked up loads in the morning sat for 3-4 hours waiting to be unloaded and then picked up again at say 1pm and didn't get back until 5:30pm, that is not how I want to try to make money, sitting in some pulp truck line????? But I'm the idiot. I should be going right now to get a bucksaw, knuckle boom loader and log truck, RIGHT?????
> 
> I guess, one way, I might put it is all or most of the loggers around here that did it the "old fashion way" are gone, dead or bankrupt. Most are/were cheats, liars and did what appears to look like years later to be hack jobs of cutting and directional falling. So some here will have to excuse me if I don't take an immediate turn and begin changing my program toward something is even remotely resembles "traditional" or macho or super fast ways of cutting, but those various methods while they may be great if all I was, was a cutter, but I also get paid to skid, and I get pissed if my skidders have to work one ounce harder because of dumb falling or placement or if a cutter wouldn't "waste" a little time with a wedge to get more angle on the fall/direction if it would help.
> 
> What really gets me about a lot of this is, I simply posted some photos of what goes on. I never said it was the best or correct or smartest or "hey everyone log like me", but some of you have taken it upon yourselves to "guide" me into doing things or methods or techniques that I probably already do if the situation allows it or can do, but obviously choose to not do it that way for whatever reason, most because I have found that it doesn't pay or make a hill of beans worth of difference at the end of the day or week or year, or better yet, maybe, just maybe I left a backstrap on it so that I could stop cutting and walk over to the camera, turn it on and then walk back over to the tree and cut it loose and have it drop and I not get killed or the tree on split all on digital video, but no, most here have to just figure that I'm some dumb crap that at best cuts 10 trees and struggles to get those out of the woods and then needs help paying my bills and getting another job. I guess, I'll just chalk that up to the natural negativity that is in most individuals.
> 
> I like those that give the advise, like hey, you have a sweet operation and looks like you are doing good, but if you would just add a little more risk and danger into your life, then man you would really see some better results, LOL. Honestly its really hard to take some of you seriously...... and pretty much I don't.
> 
> It takes a certain gall to look at another individuals operation and without knowing what in the hell is going on, repeatedly advise him on how he should be running things ............... when it appears that there is little room for vast improvement and the minors thing are just that, minor and more preferrential than anything.
> 
> Call me hobby or partime, I don't care, I cut trees and make money and everyone around here is happy about it. If it offends you that I referred to this thread with logging in it, I appologize and will attempt to refrain from usint that acronim in anything related to myself. I guess, I don't get any "tradition" points, but then I haven't ever recieved any checks that had any denominations of "tradition" on them. So you guys can have your traditions and all, you guys are "loggers", and I will take the money and we'll see how that works out in say 5-10 years for each family.
> 
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam



Honestly man I never said you should change your whole damn operation. I think you've got an awesome set up and do good work and I said that several times. Whether you believe that of not its fine. I just saw a couple of things you could do differently and they really aren't involving any more danger than trees going 90 degrees off target. I know that what you post is few of the many, many things that go in the day to day. I was merely trying to suggest a few things. 

What I meant by not owning it is any guy who is doing what you do has to have passion for it. Owning all of your own equipment and making an operation work is not just a job like you said. Guys that are just doing a job eek out a living working for someone else. They don't bust their ass everyday with their own equipment and deal with all of the stress and strain that goes with it. I understand that it is not your only money maker, but it takes a lot of nuts to do. I do like seeing your pics and vids regardless of what I think you could be doing differently. There are not many members posting this kind of stuff and I always enjoy it. As for what I think you should do I know I took it a little too far and I will keep my mouth shut. For whatever its worth, I still think you have one hell of a nice set up.


----------



## Slamm

bitzercreek1 said:


> Honestly man I never said you should change your whole damn operation. I think you've got an awesome set up and do good work and I said that several times. Whether you believe that of not its fine. I just saw a couple of things you could do differently and they really aren't involving any more danger than trees going 90 degrees off target. I know that what you post is few of the many, many things that go in the day to day. I was merely trying to suggest a few things.
> 
> What I meant by not owning it is any guy who is doing what you do has to have passion for it. Owning all of your own equipment and making an operation work is not just a job like you said. Guys that are just doing a job eek out a living working for someone else. They don't bust their ass everyday with their own equipment and deal with all of the stress and strain that goes with it. I understand that it is not your only money maker, but it takes a lot of nuts to do. I do like seeing your pics and vids regardless of what I think you could be doing differently. There are not many members posting this kind of stuff and I always enjoy it. As for what I think you should do I know I took it a little too far and I will keep my mouth shut. For whatever its worth, I still think you have one hell of a nice set up.



No biggy, Bitzercreek.

Sam


----------



## chopperfreak2k1

Group hug!!!!


----------



## Gologit

chopperfreak2k1 said:


> Group hug!!!!



No group hugs.

And Sam? It's your show, run it the way you want. If you're making money and getting the wood out that's all that matters.

The way we do stuff out here probably wouldn't work for you. That doesn't matter.

I'd like to have those big flat landings. Most of ours are so small that the trucks have to back in and we deck the logs on the side hill on one side and over the bank on the other. The only flat ground is where the shovel sets up and sometimes that's not real flat.


----------



## slowp

Your landings look like extra large helicopter landings. You are lucky.

Here's part of a typical landing here. The guys have to work with and trust each other to keep from getting smooshed. Sometimes it is like it is choreographed. These guys have worked together a long time. You could tell.







The yarder was just out of the picture. They kicked out part of a cut bank to make room for it.


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> Your landings look like extra large helicopter landings. You are lucky.
> 
> Here's part of a typical landing here. The guys have to work with and trust each other to keep from getting smooshed. Sometimes it is like it is choreographed. These guys have worked together a long time. You could tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The yarder was just out of the picture. They kicked out part of a cut bank to make room for it.



Yup, our landings consisted of a goat trail, and high-stumps to deck on the fill slope. Sometimes we got lucky, and used a couple skidders to take trees to another landing after the chaser and stroker were done with'em.

I need to drive up to a unit I did 11 years ago. . . Take some video of the ground. It's way the hell off in BFE, but deer and elk opened yesterday, so it'd be an excuse to hunt too. We had two nice bulls taunt us for a week on that unit. . . Illegal to pop them while we were working, so we just had to watch them.

Big landings are a blessing for sure.

I'd like to see more pictures of this yarder too! Cute little bugger it is.


----------



## slowp

I told them it was cute, and their smiles turned to forced smiles. It is not cool to call a yarder cute, but I can do so, and did several times. That yarder engineer sure can baby it and do what needs to be done to get the logs into the landing under control. 

Their loader was pretty new too. The guy running it has probably been in equipment from the time he was born. He comes from a major logging family.
He was exceptional to work with too. 

I get spoiled when such good crews show up and make things look easy.


----------



## banshee67

056 kid said:


> See Slamm, everyone loves you. Why are you letting 3 or 4 people ruffle your feathers?
> 
> You have got all these cookie cutters happy to the gill. .




^
jst cant let it go



:bang:


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> I told them it was cute, and their smiles turned to forced smiles. It is not cool to call a yarder cute, but I can do so, and did several times. That yarder engineer sure can baby it and do what needs to be done to get the logs into the landing under control.
> 
> Their loader was pretty new too. The guy running it has probably been in equipment from the time he was born. He comes from a major logging family.
> He was exceptional to work with too.
> 
> I get spoiled when such good crews show up and make things look easy.



LOL, well that's just tough for them. It is cute, just like them little JD 440 skidders. 

Do you know the make of that yarder? I'd like to look them up online and check them out in more detail. Seems about as big as a Bitterroot Mini-Yarder, so your wood and turns can't be real big.


----------



## slowp

It is a Madill and has 4 numbers on the machine. It is smaller than the 071 and has a square tube. Maybe 40 feet high? It is not a swing yarder. That's all I can tell. Here is from the other end. It doesn't seem as cute.


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> It is a Madill and has 4 numbers on the machine. It is smaller than the 071 and has a square tube. Maybe 40 feet high? It is not a swing yarder. That's all I can tell. Here is from the other end. It doesn't seem as cute.



Hmmmm. . . I didn't find any info on Madill's website. Perhaps it was a loader/harvester chassis that they made into a small tower yarder?


----------



## forestryworks

Metals406 said:


> Hmmmm. . . I didn't find any info on Madill's website. Perhaps it was a loader/harvester chassis that they made into a small tower yarder?



Are you scheming to produce a logging crew for next summer? I'm gonna bet you're the rigging slinger.


----------



## slowp

It had a model number on it. A four digit number. We need input from Humptulips. Or just call up an equipment dealer and ask about the cute Madill yarder. 

It is a good size as it isn't a big climb to get in and out of the cab.


Hmmmmm. Will be a slow chaser for kayak racks in trade. I have a whole hour of experience.


----------



## Metals406

forestryworks said:


> Are you scheming to produce a logging crew for next summer? I'm gonna bet you're the rigging slinger.



Can't say I don't think about it a lot. After bidding that firewood salvage job -- I have a constant hankering to go bid some stewardship contracts. A guy won't get rich doing them, but you're in the woods.

And they offer a little bit of everything. . . Pre-Commercial thinning, some saw logs, lop and scatter. . . Maybe some pulping? I know we could have an ass kicking crew with a few phone calls. 



slowp said:


> It had a model number on it. A four digit number. We need input from Humptulips. Or just call up an equipment dealer and ask about the cute Madill yarder.
> 
> It is a good size as it isn't a big climb to get in and out of the cab.
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm. Will be a slow chaser for kayak racks in trade. I have a whole hour of experience.



Oh no Miss P. . . We won't work our best hand like a chaser gets worked. You'd be at the M.B.U. (Mobile Baking Unit) -- keeping the crew in all the cookies, doughnuts and pie they could handle. While your stuff was in the oven, you could kick your feet up and sip on Huckleberry wine.


----------



## rwoods

Let's get back on topic. No, I am not a logger nor are most of the folks on this site. I enjoy this thread without all the bickering. :sword:

Sam is truly blessed and I appreciate him sharing a little with us.

If you much offer advice, see if you can help these folks out with their logging operation.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7gnxO4Sxc&feature=related

Ron


----------



## slowp

Metals406 said:


> Can't say I don't think about it a lot. After bidding that firewood salvage job -- I have a constant hankering to go bid some stewardship contracts. A guy won't get rich doing them, but you're in the woods.
> 
> And they offer a little bit of everything. . . Pre-Commercial thinning, some saw logs, lop and scatter. . . Maybe some pulping? I know we could have an ass kicking crew with a few phone calls.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no Miss P. . . We won't work our best hand like a chaser gets worked. You'd be at the M.B.U. (Mobile Baking Unit) -- keeping the crew in all the cookies, doughnuts and pie they could handle. While your stuff was in the oven, you could kick your feet up and sip on Huckleberry wine.



I have to turn that down. I put on too much weight what with the quality control process. 

Might I suggest looking into a Koller Yarder? There are ones that can be towed behind a truck which does away with the need for a lowboy trip. A guy here had one with an extension on his tube, and it seldom broke down.
The bad thing is they don't have cabs so you have to master tarpology if you want to be out of the weather. 

I think Koller might still be in the yarder business. Not sure on that.

The Koller seemed to handle a similar payload.


----------



## Gologit

rwoods said:


> Let's get back on topic.
> 
> Ron





Let's _not._ I like the way this thread is headed now.

Nate...if you're getting a crew together let me know. I can do the "growly old guy in the pick-up with all the antennas on top" routine...maybe a little cutting on the really choice stuff...and be the taste tester if Slowp changes her mind and decides to be the cook.


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> I have to turn that down. I put on too much weight what with the quality control process.
> 
> Might I suggest looking into a Koller Yarder? There are ones that can be towed behind a truck which does away with the need for a lowboy trip. A guy here had one with an extension on his tube, and it seldom broke down.
> The bad thing is they don't have cabs so you have to master tarpology if you want to be out of the weather.
> 
> I think Koller might still be in the yarder business. Not sure on that.
> 
> The Koller seemed to handle a similar payload.



That's just like the Bitteroot Mini-Yarder (trailered yarder). The Forest Service Development Center in Missoula designed and built one a number of years ago. I acquired the plans to build one last year.

They were designed for get'n out wood about the size of the wood in your pic.

As far as the M.B.U. position goes. . . It's a standing offer. 


Gologit said:


> Let's _not._ I like the way this thread is headed now.
> 
> Nate...if you're getting a crew together let me know. I can do the "growly old guy in the pick-up with all the antennas on top" routine...maybe a little cutting on the really choice stuff...and be the taste tester if Slowp changes her mind and decides to be the cook.



Shucks Bob. . . Now you're making it hard NOT to go do it. 

You could definitely be mostly retired here! LOL

And we'd need a cab-rat running the radio via the truck. . . And yelling at us youngsters thru the window to keep us in line.


----------



## Rounder

Metals406 said:


> That's just like the Bitteroot Mini-Yarder (trailered yarder). The Forest Service Development Center in Missoula designed and built one a number of years ago. I acquired the plans to build one last year.
> 
> They were designed for get'n out wood about the size of the wood in your pic.
> 
> As far as the M.B.U. position goes. . . It's a standing offer.
> 
> 
> Shucks Bob. . . Now you're making it hard NOT to go do it.
> 
> You could definitely be mostly retired here! LOL
> 
> And we'd need a cab-rat running the radio via the truck. . . And yelling at us youngsters thru the window to keep us in line.



Nate, that mini yarder seems pretty trick, I could have used one on a hell of a lot of jobs. Forgot to call you today, imagine that, I'll try tomorrow. Hey Bob, cmon over and retire, we won't work you too hard, we'll give ya all the juice strips, if you can find one, lol - Sam


----------



## Rounder

"I know we could have an ass kicking crew with a few phone calls. " - metals406



yessir


----------



## Metals406

mtsamloggit said:


> Nate, that mini yarder seems pretty trick, I could have used one on a hell of a lot of jobs. Forgot to call you today, imagine that, I'll try tomorrow. Hey Bob, cmon over and retire, we won't work you too hard, we'll give ya all the juice strips, if you can find one, lol - Sam



No worries Sam. . . Call me when ya get a chance.

Jameson just looked up a past timber sale that went for 1,400 an acre. Not too bad if a fella could sell the wood, and you had some juice in it.


----------



## forestryworks

Metals406 said:


> No worries Sam. . . Call me when ya get a chance.
> 
> Jameson just looked up a past timber sale that went for 1,400 an acre. Not too bad if a fella could sell the wood, and you had some juice in it.



My bad, I either told you wrong or we mis-communicated somehow. The job was over 1,400 acres in size.


----------



## Metals406

forestryworks said:


> My bad, I either told you wrong or we mis-communicated somehow. The job was over 1,400 acres in size.



Well then, I guess I'm a dumbass. LOL

Or stump-dumb as it were.


----------



## slowp

That Koller is designed so the controls are run from the ground. They also make a model desiged to fit on the back of a farm tractor or truck. Or used to. We worked with the tractor mounted Koller at OSU's logging school. 

The family that ran the yarder in the picture, had Dad doing the yarding, unhooking, and sometimes chute clearing.
The two sons did the falling and then one worked down in the brush. The other son then became the truck driver and loader operator.

They had a processor as you can see parked on the landing. The son in the brush would run up to the landing and run the trees through it as needed. Their dad was new to the logging world and running equipment. 

The boys had been Eastern WA skidder loggers, then moved over here and figured out how to run a yarder. 

Nope, no baking--at least not much. Since I probably will be retired, I will offer my services as volunteer photographer and (can give little hints, like, you might want to hang a little higher up on your tail tree or to untuck your pants, you're looking like a Farmer Logger. Then I'd spit a sunflower seed.)


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> That Koller is designed so the controls are run from the ground. They also make a model desiged to fit on the back of a farm tractor or truck. Or used to. We worked with the tractor mounted Koller at OSU's logging school.
> 
> The family that ran the yarder in the picture, had Dad doing the yarding, unhooking, and sometimes chute clearing.
> The two sons did the falling and then one worked down in the brush. The other son then became the truck driver and loader operator.
> 
> They had a processor as you can see parked on the landing. The son in the brush would run up to the landing and run the trees through it as needed. Their dad was new to the logging world and running equipment.
> 
> The boys had been Eastern WA skidder loggers, then moved over here and figured out how to run a yarder.
> 
> Nope, no baking--at least not much. Since I probably will be retired, I will offer my services as volunteer photographer and (can give little hints, like, you might want to hang a little higher up on your tail tree or to untuck your pants, you're looking like a Farmer Logger. Then I'd spit a sunflower seed.)





Sounds like a plan to me.


----------



## rwoods

Gologit said:


> Let's _not._ I like the way this thread is headed now.
> 
> Not that I endorse highjacking threads, but I was trying to address the bickering not the yarder discussion. I would love to see a small yarder in action. Ron


----------



## Slamm

Well I don't know where we are at with this thread. I think the last tree was cut on this job maybe 1.5-2 weeks ago and I have been trenching up my property putting in new waterlines.

Had to sort and stack a lot of these logs as the timber buyer didn't have time to and I have another nice bottoms job that I want to get moved onto. Here are some of the photos of loading the longer mat logs and the grade logs.

Then there are photos of moving the skidders. I am only going to move the loader and cable skidder to the next job. The grapple skidder is going home to get "modded", LOL. Its tired and needs to go home and rest up.

I will try and narrate the photos as best I can, but I'm on an old slow computer and can't see the photos very well. 

Lotta Logs.





We had 4 trucks come to get the last of the grade logs this morning. The truck drivers load their own trucks and I was just on the skidder to push them out of the field or get the load started, as it was a little slippery that morning.
Grade Logs




Grade Logs




Stuff




Field Shot




Logs are everywhere 1




Logs are everywhere 2




Logs are everywhere 3


----------



## Slamm

This was a few days ago, some of the logs are leaving. Me and my girls went out and got the skidders ready to leave this job. The grapple is going home and the other two are going north about 3 hours.












These two are going north.








Here are the two arriving at the new job.




Good looking load.




This will be the new "office" for a few weeks.


----------



## Slamm

Looks like another "rough" area to have to land logs, LOL.




Just off to the left.




First few logs of the morning. I'm going to try and line them all up with the gravel road. That way the log truck (driver) can just pick them up while I pull the truck forward and he loads. He can at least reach the first few logs of each section. If it doesn't work or he doesn't like my idea, I'll just be back to stacking logs like before. This job is a far drive from the timber buyer so he isn't going to babysit us as much ...... which sucks, because if it was closer he would mark and sort the logs. Now I have to do it, LOL.




Later yet and more logs.




And more, again. I figured we got out about 9000+ in about 6 hours and that doesn't include lunch and some extra curricular wildlife activity that came up. This should be the worst of the job, as the trees aren't very big and honestly we left a lot of trees that they marked (yes this is a marked job, sucks) back in the woods, because they were either too small or bad hollow.




I wish I could pull like this all day.




Now for the good stuff. Bert is cutting here.


----------



## Slamm

Got Wood..




After domino'ing two nice trees.




Video of the domino set-up. The tree that is going to get pushed over by the other tree is leaning very hard to the neighbors and I'm positive my skidder won't push it over. So we figured we would just push it over with another big marked tree. It worked great and really saved on a lot of clean up. Before this of course we cut and skid all of the other marked trees out of the way, and then dropped these two onto those tops. I hope this pre-domino video shows what we did good enough. I kinda had to hurry as I was in the middle of them and Bert wasn't going to stop, LOL.



And the crash. I hope it shows it good enough to get the drift.




Here is the landing with the first few hours of trees in it. As is usual, we have room, LOL, but this job is going to a sawmill that will probably be picking up logs every two days, if not everyday, so we will have to stay on top of the marking and bucking daily, so its not as likely that we are going to get stretched out too much, like the last one. I think this job is going to be around 167,000 bdf, but that is likely to change, but we ran into some bad rot/hollow crap today, but like I said before we cut the worst section yesterday and today, so I think the tree average now will get into the 300bdf average area if not higher. I know the oaks are more in 400-780 bdf range. We just got a lot of ash right now, but this evening we got into 300-600bdf range with the ash and maple, and that average should stay more consistent.





Later,

Sam


----------



## rwoods

Back on track. Thanks. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread.

Take care of those girls; before you know it you'll be looking back at these pictures and thinking it seems like yesterday - how did they grow up so fast. Ron


----------



## 056 kid

You pissed me the #### off by not being able to heed some advice from a nobody like me so expect the harrasment to continue you ####ing flatlander

Log cutters are supposed to be friends too. . . . . . . . .


----------



## Slamm

rwoods said:


> Back on track. Thanks. I appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread.
> 
> Take care of those girls; before you know it you'll be looking back at these pictures and thinking it seems like yesterday - how did they grow up so fast. Ron



Thanks, the girls are doing well and they love to be in the woods with me. Usually they take a bulldog and little terrier and go see what trouble they can get into with the various wildlife and then "walkie talkie" me to where they are to referee the situation.

I guess, if I don't want the thread to get too sidetracked I will have to cut more trees, LOL. I still have to get more trenchs, trenched, hope I don't stall-out too long, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> You pissed me the #### off by not being able to heed some advice from a nobody like me so expect the harrasment to continue you ####ing flatlander
> 
> Log cutters are supposed to be friends too. . . . . . . . .



I'm just a hack, gypo logger, so carry on.

I feel your skill and experience is simply unattainable by someone like myself and will simply have to walk this earth in awe of you and those like you ................ and I'm fine with that.

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

You sound like a Liberal Slamm.


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> You sound like a Liberal Slamm.



I will just respond with this photo:






Does that look like the inside of the front door of a liberal???

Not likely.

Not real sure, why you feel you need to always find something wrong with me. ........ Are you real short or something??

Later,

Sam


----------



## banshee67

round 2 now?


cool pics slamm. keep em comin!


----------



## Tzed250

056 kid said:


> You pissed me the #### off by not being able to heed some advice from a nobody like me so expect the harrasment to continue you ####ing flatlander
> 
> Log cutters are supposed to be friends too. . . . . . . . .




Less drinking....


More thinking....



.


----------



## 056 kid

No Slamm. I thought you where doing a pretty good job. I thought maybe I could express my thoughts on your operation. Never did I say that you where doing anything wrong. You just got offensive.
The way you acted, I started to think you where bluffing. Maybe you really do want a loader, but there is something that wont enable you to get one? 

So to answer the question, NO your foyer looks very nice, puzzling though. . .


----------



## Slamm

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by 056 kid View Post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You pissed me the #### off by not being able to heed some advice from a nobody like me so expect the harrasment to continue you ####ing flatlander
> 
> Log cutters are supposed to be friends too. . . . . . . . .
> 
> Less drinking....
> 
> 
> More thinking....



Is that was the deal is, he drinks his courage up for a night of internet brawling, LOL. I don't drink, so I don't quite fathom the weirdness that happens after-wards. I have relatives that are drunkards and I just couldn't quite figure out the appeal of it all, all the drama and emotional headaches and shear stupidity that comes shortly thereafter and to top it off it is an extreme expensive way to quench your thirst, which is really the only reason I have found to drink. I mean, most beer drinkers will drink to the point of excessive wizzing on everything, every 5 minutes, "Hey, hold my beer I have to go piss." ..... What a hobby, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

No drinking..


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> No Slamm. I thought you where doing a pretty good job. I thought maybe I could express my thoughts on your operation. Never did I say that you where doing anything wrong. You just got offensive.
> The way you acted, I started to think you where bluffing. Maybe you really do want a loader, but there is something that wont enable you to get one?
> 
> So to answer the question, NO your foyer looks very nice, puzzling though. . .



OH, I am Bluffing, I am photo shopping these pictures. Its really someone elses operation and I am just sneaking in and taking credit for it. Actually this guy just lets me grease his skidders for $7/hr and the rest of the time I just take photos and document his life.

When it is someone else cutting the trees down, I try to lie and say it is me?? Because I have little man's syndrom and have to one up everone.

Oh, and I really do want a loader and bucksaw, to load lucrative pulp wood, because, I make like $12 per ton, and when given the choice between cutting down 300bdf average trees or loading $12/ton pulp wood, I really just want to load pulpwood, because you have convinced me that, that is where the money is at ..... in pulpwood.

Thank you, 056KID, for all of your advise. Hopefully, any future photos will clearly document the amount of pulpwood that will be pulled out as a result of your advise. If we are a success without heeding your advise, it will be pure luck at best. Should I put you on the payroll, as simply, a mentor in the world of logging, so that I don't screw anything up anymore and finally start making the big bucks??? Let me know, as I await each and every post from you with hope that I will find yet more tidbits of knowledge and wisdom.

Thank you,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> No drinking..



Seriously, so you are doing this sober?? I personally would have blamed it on drinking. Honestly it would have been the better route at this point, but what do I know? I'm just a flat-lander that bore cuts and doesn't own a knuckle-boom loader or bucksaw .................... or log truck for that matter.

Sam


----------



## Zombiechopper

056 kid said:


> You sound like a Liberal Slamm.



you sound like a jerk.


----------



## banshee67

slamm said:


> seriously, so you are doing this sober?? I personally would have blamed it on drinking. Honestly it would have been the better route at this point,
> 
> sam


+1



zombiechopper said:


> you sound like a jerk.


+2

he cant help himself


----------



## 056 kid

Dude, all I did was propose that you experiment with some different styles of falling trees along with proposing that you get a loader and capitalize on all that wood that is attached to all the logs that you cut etc..

If I was walking around on your job, Ide ASK, ''Hey man, wheres the loader???" Maybe kill a few trees in a manner different than yours.


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Dude, all I did was propose that you experiment with some different styles of falling trees along with proposing that you get a loader and capitalize on all that wood that is attached to all the logs that you cut etc..
> 
> If I was walking around on your job, Ide ASK, ''Hey man, wheres the loader???" Maybe kill a few trees in a manner different than yours.



That is awesome, you also wanted me to live a more exciting life if I recall correctly.

Would you leave the job site after you asked those questions?

Again, thank you,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

Yea, the excitement thing was purely in timber falling context.

Ide leave if you wanted me to, for sure! 




If I put 400,000+ lbs of fiber in the field by 3:00 pm would you ask me to leave??? And dont try and talk about breaking leave trees & degrading logs. . . Ive been around enough people who didnt care what I thought of them to know that I can do the job. .


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Yea, the excitement thing was purely in timber falling context.
> 
> Ide leave if you wanted me to, for sure!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I put 400,000+ lbs of fiber in the field by 3:00 pm would you ask me to leave???



Honestly, yes, and I would help you too. Even pay you the same day, just so you wouldn't have to come back and talk to me.

I'd do anything for your knowledge and expertise, again thank you, you are too kind.

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

Sweet, immediate pay, ridiculing the boss, AND getting help!!


When can I come work my day???

At least I am making your rep meter go up Slamm, you should be thankful for that as well as my prodigious insight. . .


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Sweet, immediate pay, ridiculing the boss, AND getting help!!
> 
> 
> When can I come work my day???



I'll let you know when I die.

Thanks so much,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

backing down allready. . . 


Jeez


----------



## banshee67

056 kid said:


> backing down allready. . .
> 
> 
> Jeez


----------



## 056 kid

the above pic,(not text) is a perfect representation of the way I feel about this thread & it's OP and it going the way it has. . . .


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> backing down allready. . .
> 
> 
> Jeez



I was just wondering if I could just mentor under you, you know like on the internet, where you get to be the "big man" and show newbies like me, how to log and be successful, because you are clearly running a top notch operation yourself, and I'm some kinda hack, that has been asking for advise on how to better my operation.

With all due respect, due to your inflated ego, I wouldn't want anything to do with you, as you clearly are not right in the head or emotionally stable, and for some reason I find that while I'm not readily allergic to anything regarding plants or animals, I do have a certain allergic reaction to dip$h!ts, that feel they need to harass and/or provide someone with self-inflated advise, when it is clearly been explained that the advise is completely and udderly worthless and pointless in this case or area. You are too dumb headed to see that I didn't ask for your advise and I don't want your advise and you are wasting both of our times with this stupidity, and while I'm mildly entertained, I am continuously, reminding myself of the old adage,"Don't argue with a fool, because those at a distance might not be able to tell, which of you is the fool." Clearly you are the moron, but you're dragging me into it as well, but what is a guy to do?? You come onto here acting like you know jack, when it has been explained several times that you don't know jack about this operation and it won't or doesn't work here. Clearly you are a troubled youth, and all we can do is talk and laugh about you in posts, PM's, Reps and emails.

So as to not further fracture your already fragile self-esteem, I have made the mistake of asking for your continued advice, which has possibly portrayed you a some type of all knowing logging god, that through your own skill, experience and wisdom, command your own equipment, saws, employees, logging jobs and operation, and has provided an untold amount of photos to document this success for others such as myself to witness to these various successes. Like you repeatedly cutting 30-40K bdf everyday you hit the woods............................. Oh, no wait a minute, I got that all wrong, pretty much most around here just think of you as some dumb, young arrogant drunkard, what was I thinking.

Later,

Sam


----------



## CORNFEDMIDGET

Somewhere in this mess, someone said something about cookies.

I love cookies, they are delicious!


----------



## 056 kid

Im lost for words. . .


I think I should be the one being mentored! How long have you been cutting timber?
Dr. Phil has hit the nail on the head though.
A genius of geniuses!
You know more than I don about me!!
Its UNBELIEVABLE.
Im glad you and your friends are getting a kick out of this whole endeavor, Cause your Im a bad ass attitude makes me laugh. Especially when I think about how long or to be more accurate, how short you would last in the industry that I half way know. . .


----------



## Slamm

056 kid said:


> Im lost for words. . .
> 
> 
> I think I should be the one being mentored! How long have you been cutting timber?
> Dr. Phil has hit the nail on the head though.
> A genius of geniuses!
> You know more than I don about me!!
> Its UNBELIEVABLE.
> Im glad you and your friends are getting a kick out of this whole endeavor, Cause your Im a bad ass attitude makes me laugh. Especially when I think about how long or to be more accurate, how short you would last in the industry that I half way know. . .



I believe the key phrase in all of that is," The industry that I half way know ...." ..... So while you may, and I use that word loosely, you may, know your industry half way, you don't know jack about my area or what makes money in this local industry, I'm pretty sure I've got a good handle on it. I have successfully cut and skidded timber in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois, I owned all of my own equipment on all of those jobs and could go back and get work at any of those locations tomorrow. I also have changed very little about my operation in those 5-6 years, why, because its efficient, it works and it makes sense. 

(edit below)
So just how long would I last in your industry (You ask)??? 

Hmmmmm, I have zero bills, I have fun at what I do, I employ other good guys that need work/money, my wife knows how to run saws and equipment about as good as most men and can run a grapple skidder better than most, I get repeat business wherever I have worked. The landowners like my work, the timber buyers like how I cut/skid and I have the photos to prove it all. (I don't mean any of this as a brag, just proving a point to this idiot). Meanwhile, your photos show a hack that from day one, until now can't figure out how to cut a tree down without dumb looking notches and pulling fiber, LOL. I'd say, I've got more than just the basics of the industry down and know how to make money doing it, and all without screwing around with your beloved pulpwood, LOL. (end edit)

So if you want to shrink your own head a little go back and read some of your old posts and just see that 5 years ago everybody thought you were a dumba$$ and today everyone thinks you are a drunkard dumba$$. Here is some good reading for you, pop the lid off a cold one and drink up:
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=21395&highlight=056+kid+guitar

You are the epitome of a hack and the pictures to prove it are in the above thread, LOL.

Why don't you just run along and leave this thread alone, okay, wouldn't that be a smart thing to do???

Later,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

I know what people used to think of me, and I know what they think now.
Its not important to me though, what is important is my well being Comprendere? So spouting off on your all mighty thread really dosent pose any harm. . .


Instead of studying up on 056 kid, go get some rest for that steep ground you gotta traverse tomorrow. Stay safe now. since I said that Il say #### you to even things out & keep my reputation. .

Yea and the hack thing, Il let the man that signs my pay check determine that buck-O.




You know bringing up 6 year old irrelevance is a really dirty liberal type thing to do. IMO. . .


----------



## Slamm

Okay, bye bye now.

For those that just want to look at some pics/videos of the various goings on, it starts partway down, (back) on page 17, with page 18 ---- to this point (19) being a complete waste of time and effort.

Later all,

Sam


----------



## possumtrapper

Thank You Slamm, you do an awesome and admirable job of handling logs, equipment, staff, chainsaws, idiots, delinquents, will e helicopter pilots, and what sounds like teenagers, drunks, space cadets or maybe a mixture of all those things.

I have been back and read this entire thread and think it is embarressing how you have been treated and I feel like I need to apologise about the lack of regulation of that kind of misbehavior. 

From now on I'll be ignoring them, and concentrating on what makes America great, which includes your work posts. 

Please keep posting your excellent pix, I find them inspirational and motivational. Thank You again from all of us here in New Zealand.


----------



## belgian

056 kid said:


> Im lost for words. . .
> 
> 
> I think I should be the one being mentored! How long have you been cutting timber?
> Dr. Phil has hit the nail on the head though.
> A genius of geniuses!
> You know more than I don about me!!
> Its UNBELIEVABLE.
> Im glad you and your friends are getting a kick out of this whole endeavor, Cause your Im a bad ass attitude makes me laugh. Especially when I think about how long or to be more accurate, how short you would last in the industry that I half way know. . .



Hey Kid, let it go. 

You may think you are the best faller in town but what makes you believe that you can tell someone how to run his business, while you have never run an operation yourself, nor know anything about Slamm business environment.

Running a business is about making money, not about how good you can swing a saw or how many (profitless) pulpwood you leave behind. Maybe some food for thought for you, LOL. From my perspective, you are the one to learn from Slamm ....not the other way around 

So go sit in the corner and use your brain instead of your mouth. Or do I feel some jealousy right dar...


----------



## CORNFEDMIDGET

I was trying to lighten the mood earlier. Cookies, somehow become part of every discussion here. My hats off to you Slamm. I've killed some trees in my time, but never run a business. Looks like you enjoy your work and family, good life. Kentucky is a great place, my roots are from Kentucky. My grandpa was an axman (literally) in Eastern KY, back when they still were logging in the Appalachian.


----------



## Slamm

Well today was not a good day to be in the woods with us. The new guy Craig, was on the ground hooking up chokers, (I was skidder driver) and we were pulling a smaller tree that got hung up in another tree, and he was going to top it when it fell. Well he wasn't paying any attention and I pulled the tree out of the other tree, which was hollow/rotten and it fell over toward us. Craig was looking at his chainsaw and not the tree situation. I saw it coming and had stopped and was yelling at him but the trees kept on coming. Needless to say, the 10" section of tree that is right at his feet fell about 80' and was moving right along when it fell right next to him, it literally brushed the shirt he was wearing.





The next turn in, I watched as Bert (cutter) had a tree fall over and a large 30'+ branch came flying back at him and he was running hard, and it only missed him by about 3 feet. Then a big rotten tree fell over onto me and the skidder. We questioned the sanity of working anymore today .............. then we went back to work without any further issues. We are in some bad genetics on the trees, the ash and soft maple are bad hollow and rotten, these trees should have been cut 5-10 years ago and crap like this is the result. Bert cut 78 trees, but only 51 can be counted as decent trees with footage in them for the landing, the rest will be left in the woods to rot, as they are just junk.

This is a marked timber and we are to cut the trees they marked but we don't have to drag them out and some of these trees are so bad they just explode everywhere when they get cut, as they have zero integrity left in them.

Here some honey bees had made the best of this hollow tree. Anyone know how we should "collect" them and the honey, to make a hive at home??? I don't think it will be cold enough tomorrow to slow them down, but we could check.





We stacked yesterday's pile and this is today's landing at that location and there is another landing, photo'd below.





Here is the other landing. The dog is on a good Red Oak (We got a grade 16'x23", Mat 20'x21" and a Pallet 10'x20" and no limbing, LOL, and there are equally nice hickory behind it. Would like that we get about 200 more of those.





Later,

Sam


----------



## jeepyfz450

Wow that red oak is "Cherry" lol Just kiddin. very nice timber you got there... I hate getting into those rotten hollowed out cull trees its just plain dangerous.


----------



## Zombiechopper

the hollow rot is scary ####. I had one like that go sideways on me a while back. It was completely punky all through. Shoulda pushed it over with the tractor but it looked ok from the outside!


----------



## 056 kid

#### around if you want too. . . You should have been nicer to me last night, now you got the Timber Gods all pissed off. . .


----------



## Zombiechopper

056 kid said:


> #### around if you want too. . . You should have been nicer to me last night, now you got the Timber Gods all pissed off. . .



hey young feller, I think you must get pissed off at everything and everyone so I can't find it within myself to feel special for ticking you off. If I wanted to push your buttons we'd be talking about bent ES bars and the inexperienced cock sure punks that bend em....


----------



## 056 kid

That comment was directed at Slamm, and sorry to tell you, but bending bars is part of falling timber. 


inexperienced, what ever ya'll say, like water off a ducks back it is to me. . .


----------



## DHIBBS75

Slamm Me and my neighbor just cut down an 5 ft red oak.. solid go to solo 603 versus 5 foot oak.... to see picks.... I cut the first log at 10 ft and the 2 at 8'8".... Goodmans is going to come and look at them. They can only cut 42".... these are bigger... I was told anywhere form .35-.45 cents a foot. and the log has about 8-900 ft each.... Does this sound about right??? WHat are your suggestions????


----------



## Slamm

DHIBBS75 said:


> Slamm Me and my neighbor just cut down an 5 ft red oak.. solid go to solo 603 versus 5 foot oak.... to see picks.... I cut the first log at 10 ft and the 2 at 8'8".... Goodmans is going to come and look at them. They can only cut 42".... these are bigger... I was told anywhere form .35-.45 cents a foot. and the log has about 8-900 ft each.... Does this sound about right??? WHat are your suggestions????



I'm not by a computer now (this is my phone). If they can't cut that size you may have to quarter it. They have the best prices for red oak. But a lot depends on what the logs look like. Make sure you separate the cuts or they will stain. I will check you pics when at a puter.

Sam


----------



## bitzer

Hollow and unpredictable is all part of the fun! Makes things a little more interesting and you've gotta be sharp. 

Beats the hell out of an office job anyway. 

What drives me nuts is when guys aren't paying attention to the action. When I say "get the hell out of the way," take more than 3 steps back and watch wtf is going on. Amazing how many people get away with it though.


----------



## Slamm

Here is some pics of the 3rd Landing.
















Here is the 2nd Landing




Bert Cutting a log at 20 feet in the woods, because some of these were either too heavy to pull in one piece or two long to get turned around for easy skidding. A lot of the pin oaks we were getting two 20'ers and one 10'er before topping. So we just marked them and bucked them in the woods and pulled them out, because the skid was pretty short to the 3rd landing.


----------



## Slamm

Craig setting chokers.




This is not a face cut, the face cut is on the back of this tree. He just cut the spur off here.












Here is a load of mat logs leaving. I put nine 20'ers on the back of the trailer and 8 16'ers on the front.


----------



## Zombiechopper

ya know what Sam? I spent all day bouncing around rutted hay field in a Case 1070 with a totally rotted out seat so the first thing caught my eye is just how perty that blue easy chair in your skidder looks


----------



## Gologit

Slamm said:


>



How long of a bar did he use to fall this one? Does the scaler dock you for stuff like that?


----------



## Zombiechopper

Gologit said:


> How long of a bar did he use to fall this one? Does the scaler dock you for stuff like that?



yeah, but if he'd cut it PNW long bar style he'd have left 4 ft of that log on the stump to rot. So this way is probably ok LOL!


----------



## 056 kid

Zombiechopper said:


> yeah, but if he'd cut it PNW long bar style he'd have left 4 ft of that log on the stump to rot. So this way is probably ok LOL!



Why on earth would that be??


----------



## Zombiechopper

056 kid said:


> Why on earth would that be??



I dunno man, why do you guys cut em so high out west? Very good question you ask there young lad


----------



## 056 kid

I think its personal preference, I would not profile it as a west coast thing though.. i do know that in tall timber where there is alot of tension on the stump, going up till you have uniform straight fiber makes for a much stronger hinge.


----------



## Slamm

Zombiechopper said:


> ya know what Sam? I spent all day bouncing around rutted hay field in a Case 1070 with a totally rotted out seat so the first thing caught my eye is just how perty that blue easy chair in your skidder looks



LOL, it is quite comfy.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Gologit said:


> How long of a bar did he use to fall this one? Does the scaler dock you for stuff like that?



He is using a 28" bar. If it was a veneer/grade log the scaler would probably want to see the right side trimmed up (if that is what you are talking about), but this log is going for mat logs so they don't dock for much of anything other than not being straight and big, on that tree we got two 20'ers and a 10'er.

I think you can see from the butt, he gutted 28" of it from one side and then got the rest from the other side. Bert cuts a little different than I do, not saying that is good or bad, but he can get the wood on the ground pretty quick, and do it about as safe as it can be expected. In this type of timber hes been doing about 60-80+ trees, and he isn't sweating to do it. The thing that sucks about this job is the way it was marked. You can't get a pattern and it was all marked on one side of the trees, so you have to walk around every tree and try to find the paint. A lot of our jobs are just cut 20" and bigger at breast heighth. Whoever marked this job was drinking, I think, because I don't see how a sober person would have done the things they are doing. Tomorrow morning the timber buyer and property owner and me are going to re-walk this timber and explain some things and get more trees marked, which means we are going to have to back track some, but it will be worth it because we are talking about a lot of 30"+ trees that got left, which for bottom ground that floods all the time, that is just dumb.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Gologit

Okay...that makes sense. Lots of difference between your area and ours. If I sent one in like that I'd probably hear about it before it ever went on the truck.


----------



## Slamm

For the record, what exactly is wrong with the butt and stump on that cut. I was thinking it was that the butt wasn't trimmed up completely smooth, but it seems we are speaking of a less quality of wood in the stump. If that is the case, it is different here, than in softwood land, because like on veneer white oak and walnut, it is common to flush cut the stump to the ground, like in my earlier photos on this thread, and even get a shovel or skid steer and dig out the stump slightly to cut them below ground level. Now the stump on the tree in question, to me is great. We didn't leave a lot of wood on the stump, I could mark out two nice 20' mat logs and one 10' pallet log before the branches at the top, and my skidder can drive over that stump and/or swing trees over it without any problems.

Around here if you cut stumps at waist heighth, we call that farmer cutting, because they are too lazy to bend over, LOL.

As to going farther up the tree to find strength in the hinge, since neither of us cut large hinges, it is strong enough at ground level, because we our hinge is in the outer wood, which obviously isn't as rotten or problematic as the wood more toward the center, and we can get more large diameter footage out of a tree this way, without being anymore dangerous.

My opinion, or that is how we do it,

Sam


----------



## Gologit

Zombiechopper said:


> I dunno man, why do you guys cut em so high out west? Very good question you ask there young lad



We don't always cut them high. Using a Humboldt face _might_ leave a little higher stump than some but if you high-stump too many you'll hear about it from the bullbuck. Real soon, too. We cut for scale and leaving wood on the stump is a waste.

The only time I intentionally high-stump is to avoid rot, or for better directional control, or on very very steep ground. On cow face ground I might leave a few scattered here and there so that when I buck and a forty footer breaks loose it won't roll clear down into the next county and piss off the Cat skinner. Cat skinners are usually pissed off anyway. Why add to it?


----------



## Gologit

Slamm said:


> For the record, what exactly is wrong with the butt and stump on that cut. I was thinking it was that the butt wasn't trimmed up completely smooth, but it seems we are speaking of a less quality of wood in the stump. If that is the case, it is different here, than in softwood land, because like on veneer white oak and walnut, it is common to flush cut the stump to the ground, like in my earlier photos on this thread, and even get a shovel or skid steer and dig out the stump slightly to cut them below ground level. Now the stump on the tree in question, to me is great. We didn't leave a lot of wood on the stump, I could mark out two nice 20' mat logs and one 10' pallet log before the branches at the top, and my skidder can drive over that stump and/or swing trees over it without any problems.
> 
> Around here if you cut stumps at waist heighth, we call that farmer cutting, because they are too lazy to bend over, LOL.
> 
> As to going farther up the tree to find strength in the hinge, since neither of us cut large hinges, it is strong enough at ground level, because we our hinge is in the outer wood, which obviously isn't as rotten or problematic as the wood more toward the center, and we can get more large diameter footage out of a tree this way, without being anymore dangerous.
> 
> My opinion, or that is how we do it,
> 
> Sam



Easy there, big guy. I wasn't being critical. If I _was_ being critical you'd know it. I was just curious about the difference in the way you guys do things from the way things are out here. I try not to judge everybody's operation from a Left Coast standpoint. If things work for you then keep doing them.

The stump? I don't care about the stump. I was just curious about the uneven log end. You don't see that much out here, mostly because of the longer bars, and I was reminded yet again of the different ways that we do things.

Leaving a butt like that would have earned me the comment from the bullbuck "What did you do on that one...just stand back and throw the saw at it?"

Like I said...if it works for you and everybody is happy with the results just keep on it.


----------



## Slamm

Gologit said:


> Easy there, big guy. I wasn't being critical. If I _was_ being critical you'd know it. I was just curious about the difference in the way you guys do things from the way things are out here. I try not to judge everybody's operation from a Left Coast standpoint. If things work for you then keep doing them.
> 
> The stump? I don't care about the stump. I was just curious about the uneven log end. You don't see that much out here, mostly because of the longer bars, and I was reminded yet again of the different ways that we do things.
> 
> Leaving a butt like that would have earned me the comment from the bullbuck "What did you do on that one...just stand back and throw the saw at it?"
> 
> Like I said...if it works for you and everybody is happy with the results just keep on it.



No, I literally meant, "for the record", as in I wanted to be sure what you were talking about, no offense taken or meant toward you either, I was just curious.

Yeah, the butt has some issues on the right side, but as long as there isn't any rot in the butt, I have not heard of someone scaling back a log for an uneven cut butt. Like I said, if it was a good grade log or veneer, it would have either been trimmed up right there or at the landing before the buyer comes to look at it. When I/we mark the lengths for bucking up, we obviously go on the shorter side of the butt.

All it good, just different,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> No, I literally meant, "for the record", as in I wanted to be sure what you were talking about, no offense taken or meant toward you either, I was just curious.
> 
> Yeah, the butt has some issues on the right side, but as long as there isn't any rot in the butt, I have not heard of someone scaling back a log for an uneven cut butt. Like I said, if it was a good grade log or veneer, it would have either been trimmed up right there or at the landing before the buyer comes to look at it. When I/we mark the lengths for bucking up, we obviously go on the shorter side of the butt.
> 
> All it good, just different,
> 
> Sam



I cut like the Swedes one time. . . I had a big old spruce on my place. They tend to have a big tapered bole like your hardwoods. I had the 038 w/ a 20" bar, and that tree wasn't gonna fall w/o getting stuck from both sides.

So I tried the box cut. . . I cut the "cheeks" off the butt-swell, put in a smaller face and went to bore cutting the tree. If fell down just like any other tree, with any other face.

And, like you say, the stump was right at ground level.

I haven't done it since, but it's nice to have in the bag-o-tricks.

As far as high stumps in these parts, 12" is max in production. On grade it's 12" all the way around, and on slope it's 12" from high side. Long stumps are allowed to deck on fill slope, or (like Bob said) to keep trees from running to Kansas.

If you don't watch your P's & Q's though, the forester will eat your lunch.

Winter snow won't even be a good enough excuse, as they'd tell ya to buy a shovel and get to digging.


----------



## slowp

Here's the rules of stumps, where I work. 12 inches is the maximum height, measured from the uphill side.
But there are exceptions, which I've posted before and will now do again. I've still got coffee to drink. 

High stumps are OK when:
You are building a road. They are easier to push out of the road when high.

You are on steep as a cow's face ground, clearcutting. The stumps might stop the trees from rolling to the bottom of the unit. If not, they might at least slow it down.

You need to deck logs on the steep sides of roads. The stumps can be left high to hold the logs.

You are cutting a snag. Safety trumps everything else.

You need to cut higher because the tree is forked near the bottom. Mind you, you are supposed to then cut the stump off to the acceptable height.

You need a guyline or tailhold. You need room to notch those stumps to place the straps in. Gots to notch them to keep the rigging from slipping off.

I think I've forgotten a few other cases. Feel free to chime in. 

Here's a hooktender, high stumping the tree because he's going to rig it up as a tailhold. The saw used, like all rigging crew saws, was said to have "a bent bar.":greenchainsaw:





Some rigging. This area has loose, pumice for soils. These guys took pride in the fact that no tail trees went over during the yarding. The tail tree gets so much shaking that it will loosen up over time.


----------



## Metals406

I think you covered a good portion of the acceptable reasons for high stumps.

Another might be a lift spar, and you need a couple high stumps next to it to guy to.

Or if you're yarder is a lattice boom crane like the Linkbelt 98 we used, you have to guy the tower off to a stump behind you (high stump). . . You put a Skookum block on the stump, and run the cable thru it. Both ends of the cable are attached to the boom, and this allows you to pull on the stump during a turn, and not entirely on the boom -- but you don't lose your ability to swing. Nobody like a broken yarder boom, or watching the yarder get yanked over the hill.

Here's another, lesser known, reason. . . A high stump can be used as a pivot for a cat on real steep ground. Pin your lower track against the stump and get to turning.


----------



## slowp

High stumps can make good platforms for us short Foresters to stand on and 
orate. Not too tall though. I carry a step stool in my pickup but sure don't want to pack it down into the brush. Or up. 

By the way. In the ancient days, when contracts were thicker, like the trees, the stump height requirement was:

12 inches or 1/3 the tree diameter, which ever is greater. 

That gave more working room to have on the old monster trees.


----------



## slowp

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## slowp

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----------



## slowp

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----------



## palogger

Another reason for a high stump is as a guide around a reserve or leave tree, this is if your skidding with a skidder or dozer


----------



## tlandrum

palogger said:


> Another reason for a high stump is as a guide around a reserve or leave tree, this is if your skidding with a skidder or dozer




i tend to leave high stumps at all the bends in my skid roads to keep 100' plus trees from wiping out everything inside the curve path and i leave the cut trees in the tail swing path there to protect the leave trees until skidding on that trail is done .then i cut the last trees for skidding.


----------



## Slamm

Here is a pic of a 441 and the large rubber chip flap on a small/normal side cover. Just showing that it works and I like it. Also the rubber will likely last longer because it won't get kinked as bad as when installed on the "proper" larger side cover. It cost me $6.50 and keeps the chips off of you as good as the larger cover and rubber flap, also if 2-4 of us are bucking up at the same time it keeps one from spraying chips all over the next guy, LOL.





Hollow trees provide opportunity for the fury friends that we bring along. We had a pretty good daily average going the first couple of weeks. This is Junior and he handles all small hole extraction duties.




Some big tree.




Some other big tree.




Another small one.




Some of the "Wrecking crew". These dogs are smart and have balls, they hang out with us during all falling and skidding operations, trying to "clean up" local varmints. They know to get on the back side of the notch and have figured out to look up, everyone of them has been bashed by falling objects, yet still love to be in the woods with us. How they are still alive is a mistery, LOL.




This one will try to ride the logs into the landing. We need to get a harness to have him drag out that valuable pulpwood, LOL.


----------



## Slamm

Some of the logs as compared to the 540B skidder.




A bunch of big butts. Since these are a pain to handle, because of their larger size, I just cut them off in the woods and pulled them all here. Instead of mixing big and little/normal sized trees on the log trailers. Plus most of these were grade logs so they weren't going as pallet lumber anyways.





Got some other stuff uploading, we aren't working today as we finished the job and are waiting until deer season is over to start the neighbors.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Here is one of the modded 441's wearing a 28" ES bar and full skip/ semi-chisel cutting a big swamp oak.
As a result of the current modifications to the 441's like this one, we will not be needing the modded 660's anymore. The cutter in this video said he would walk 1/2 mile past a modded 660 to use this 441, and that is on flat ground, LOL. If we were in hills the "love" of the modded 441 would be even greater.




Here is a modded 441 and full width cut 28" (full skip/semi chisel) on the top section of a swamp oak (white oak cousin).




The 441 in the above videos is just some parts saw that I bought in combo with the piston and cylinder off of the previously crushed 441 several pages back. In these videos it isn't broke in yet and it has gotten faster, as per the cutters opinion.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Work Saw Collector

Slamm said:


>



I am kind of late to this thread, but can we see a close up of this saws paint job? What I can see of it looks cool.


----------



## rburg

Look at page 9 for some pictures of the 441 with the paint job.


----------



## Work Saw Collector

rburg said:


> Look at page 9 for some pictures of the 441 with the paint job.



Thanks, I'll go check it out.


----------



## banshee67

some nice oaks there! very nice
cute dogs


----------



## Slamm

Here is just some random stuff that uploaded:

Nice landing of good logs hickory, soft maple and ash.





Big one going over with a modded 441:




Here is a video of me pushing one over in the direction needed to pull these bigger ones out a little easier. Bert/cutter is coming out the back and I am coming it and pushing it. After it falls over I pan out to the right to see another nice one we pushed over and then toward the left at two other biggin's.




Sam


----------



## oscar4883

Nice work Sam. That Stihl skip/semi-chisel is real good chain.


----------



## rwoods

Another small one.






Any good figured wood in that top?

Glad Slamm Video is back in production.  Ron


----------



## Slamm

oscar4883 said:


> Nice work Sam. That Stihl skip/semi-chisel is real good chain.



Thank you, and yes, we love the stuff. I really like it on hardwoods, but the last two jobs have been recently flooded bottoms ground and there is mud and grit up to about 4'-10' high on the trees so, the chisel chain just doesn't work at all, Stihl or otherwise, it just gets the tips ripped off and quits cutting then you have to file 1/16 of the tooth off just to get a good edge again.

My cutter used the same modded 441 and 1 partially used chain and 1 brand new chain and still has the next (third) brand new chain on the saw and this last job was around 115,000 board feet. That saw and basically 2 chains, fell and topped just about every tree of the job and bucked up a lot of it, maybe around 1/3 of it.

That is a lot of wood to cut up for 2 chains, in dirty condition, but that is what took place, and this would not take place with a chisel chain of any brand. As I have said before I have no use for chisel chain, it does not cut more wood for the effort it takes to maintain a sharp edge ........ chisel chain is basically the drama queen of the chain world, as in it either cuts really fast or not at all and not much inbetween, like a roller coaster.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

rwoods said:


> Another small one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any good figured wood in that top?
> 
> Glad Slamm Video is back in production.  Ron



?? "good figured wood", do you mean, the grain structure or financially/figured wood??

I didn't look at the top much, LOL. I don't remember what we got out of that tree, looks like maybe a 16' grade log on the bottom and either another 16' mat log and some longer pallet lumber from the top to the first fork. If I remember right one of those branches broke on that tree when it crashed down. We cut a lot of those sized trees on that job, but I remember that one, because it was by the blown over walnut tree who's top is showing across the ditch.

On those sized trees we were marking the various log lengths out of the whole thing in the woods, so as to not short ourselves out of a good length log at the top, and then bucking the grade "butt" log off and dragging the whole thing in two pieces. The smaller 540B's can drag the whole tree, but it is hard on them and sometimes "slower is faster", in the production world, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Work Saw Collector said:


> I am kind of late to this thread, but can we see a close up of this saws paint job? What I can see of it looks cool.



I am going to get a thread started for this saw and some of the other modded 441's when things slow down a bit. This one got faster from the 1st tank to the 20th tank of gas, it has a larger main jet than the one Bert is using and therefore can't be leaned up as much but it sure has some amazing torque. This is not very accurate, but I was cutting with this saw and a 25" bar and was beating our modded BB660 in 20-22" ash.

For what it matters the cutter has his choice of 1 modded 660 that is the fastest saw we have, 1 modded BB 660 and the unpainted, but modded 441 that is in the videos and he didn't even touch a 660 during the whole job. In fact, the 660's were only used at the landings for bucking up and he didn't use them, LOL. Bert kept my 441 (that he uses) in the back seat of his truck when not working, because he didn't want anyone else to mess with it, LOL.

We are really impressed with the modded 441 and have been told another 20%+ power will be pulled out of them in the coming months. Additionally, a BB441 is just being finished up with similiar portwork and modds. I think the BB effectively makes it the new Stihl 461, LOL, we'll see.

Later,

Sam


----------



## ttyR2

So is the Stihl RSC chain considered a full chisel? It does have the sharp point at the corner of the cutting edge but doesn't use a non-round file to sharpen it.


----------



## DSS

ttyR2 said:


> So is the Stihl RSC chain considered a full chisel? It does have the sharp point at the corner of the cutting edge but doesn't use a non-round file to sharpen it.



RSC is full chisel, yes. RMC is semi-chisel.


----------



## Metals406

Hey Sam! Any new nuggets to post in here?


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Hey Sam! Any new nuggets to post in here?


Here was our Sunday. 18*F and 30-40 mph winds, we burned 6 gallons of mix in one day with 441's and dropped about 3 acres of pretty good hardwood. It was work, but we were having fun .... does that count?




With 30+ mph winds you didn't have to wonder where the trees were going, ........... regardless of lean, LOL.




The landing was brutal:








Video of the Skidder:



Video of the wind:



Another video:




Sam


----------



## Slamm

Our Saturday, was just awesome, LOL. It rained on us the whole day. The truck got stuck 3 miles from where we were cutting, so we all just grabbed the saws and started walking. We walked 3 miles with 4 saws, 5 gallon jug of mix and various tools. Worked hard then walked back out, the ATV was already at the landing so one guy got to take us back to the truck while the rest walked. Truck slid down the hill .... by itself .... but was still stuck called a friend to come pick us up. Walked another 2 miles to get to friends pickup area, we dropped a lot of trees on Saturday, despite the "minor" setbacks, LOL. I think I have the best crew of guys to work with.












The phone camera was fogged up from being wet.





Sam


----------



## Slamm

Reworked the exhaust on my 540B Grapple Skidder. Put new windshields in it too.




My beloved 540 Skidder Grapple on the trailer going to work:




My new to me 518 Cat with Swing Boom:








Finally the Ported Big Bore 441 is here, cut with it for the last two days and really like it, I need to cut with it against the one that Bert is using, as it seems his might have a little more speed/revs, but man this thing has some grunt and just chugs. This is the new Stihl 461, LOL. Thank you, Terry for this one, it runs great.




This is a small swing boom attachment I bought to put on my other 540B that is a cable skidder.









Thats about it for now, been very busy with a lot of work and not enough people to do it. We are working on lights for all the skidders to run two shifts and/or work at night when/while the ground is more frozen. We have another 300 acres that we are looking at today, if we get it, it has to be done by April 1st, Oh boy.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Damn. . . Why you boys having to work weekends and two shifts? Does this current job have to be turnkey in a short time?

Also, love the swing boom 518!! That's the exact setup I was gonna buy a couple years ago when I was gonna get back into logging. Guy in Oregon had it for 8k, and would have mobed it to me for nothing. . . Said his wife wanted it out'a the yard. 

You have some nice big brass balls to fall in that wind! LOL

Looking forward to seeing more!


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Damn. . . Why you boys having to work weekends and two shifts? Does this current job have to be turnkey in a short time?
> 
> Also, love the swing boom 518!! That's the exact setup I was gonna buy a couple years ago when I was gonna get back into logging. Guy in Oregon had it for 8k, and would have mobed it to me for nothing. . . Said his wife wanted it out'a the yard.
> 
> You have some nice big brass balls to fall in that wind! LOL
> 
> Looking forward to seeing more!



There is a deadline on getting everything cut down and then another one for getting it all out on trucks. There is another contractor on the job and its a first come, first served deal. So I'm trying to serve myself as much as I can. So far we are beating the expectations by quite a lot, they have never seen guys work like we do, either cutting or skidding. 

I have nothing to do with getting the logs out on the trucks, but I do have to do with getting the timber down and cut up into logs. Plus we just looked at another 359 acres of work today and there are about 3-4 select cut jobs that I would like to get done before April/May time period. When the higher grade prices come back up and we can hit those jobs hard in the summer. The other crew has double the people, 1/3 more time spend at the job, newer machines and more machines and we have double the acres cut and skidded, and we have been working in crap weather. The weather should level out this week, and we can get into a hard pace. 

I'm looking into a rental house or hotels nearby so we can get to sleep faster and get up to skid around 2am when it starts the thawing and freezing cycle, that it does around here. Our machine shop is going to get some well protected light baskets to bolt on the tops of the machines.

I would like any photos or suggestions for good 360 degree light bars that are skidder/logging proof. I have some ideas, but would like to see some other ideas if possible. You cannot just mount the lights onto the middle of the cab, as it produces to much of a glare, against the rest of the machine, the lights need to be ontop of the machines cab pointed down, and well encased in steel bars and such for limb protection. I would mount the "baskets" with 3/4" bolts, maybe 2 each on front and back and 1 per side or something.

What are your thoughts on another 518 Single Function Grapple or getting something like a 548 or 648 Deere. I really like this 518, it has plenty of power and I like the torque converter tranny. They do suck the diesel, but if you put higher crack pressure injectors it saves on about 1 gallon of fuel per hour, which helps. This 518 with a swing boom sticks to the ground pretty well, actually amazingly well, but it has low 23x26 tires. The Esco grapples suck on the Cat's, I definiantly like the Deere grapple systems a lot better, and will be cutting these Esco's off and replacing them with Deere grapples as I find them for cheap. I can get a used low hour 518 grapple for about $6,000 and have a new motor put in it for $4,000, thats only $10K for a low hour, big skidder with a brand new motor. I can't find anything in the range of a deal going with a Deere 548/648. I am hooked on the smaller 540B's and will/can put 155HP engines in them, which will make for a small fast skidder. So its either another 540B Grapple with 155hp motor or this cheap 518 Grapple. From January to March, I could have myself and 3-4 other really good cutters in the timber and I think 3 skidders go.ing 2 shifts pull the wood out each day, but I might have to split up the skidders and go two at one job and two at another, so I kinda want 4 skidders, but right now there isn't any rush on the 4th one, just shopping.

As to cutting in the wind, it wasn't really that bad, we bore cut a lot of the bigger trees, but this little stuff we've been "stump jumping" a lot of it. We are cutting everything pretty low 6" and lower if possible, so the skidders can drive anywhere and pick up, plus it was part of the contract. I took the full wrap off of my painted up 441 just to get lower to the ground ........... and I don't know how to use a full wrap anyways, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## tlandrum

sounds like work is going well, i hope the weather dont catch you like it has me. im on the last 25 acres of this job and it is all about straight up and down. so im kinda at a stand still until this snow goes away and the ground freezes. i may pull my skidder out and move my loader onto a clear cut job until the weather gets better. right now 6 inches of snow and steep hollows dont work really well. after i get it up the hill and onto the skid rd its a 3/4 mile skid to the closest landing to the hwy. me thinks its time to move on.


----------



## Metals406

If it were me buying another skidder (and it ain't), I'd go with another 518 -- for a few reasons:

1) There are parts everywhere for them. It's like trying to get stuff for a Chevy 350.

2) They're a tried and true machine, maybe not with all the bells and whistles, but hey. . . They're good machines.

3) Like you say, you can be in a nearly new one for under/at 10k.

I don't know for sure, but I reckon a 600-700 series Deere will cost a lot more.


On the lights, I'd build an assembly with two forward and two aft. Maybe gun them out a hair. If they are mounted in 6" well casing, you'd play hell breaking them. If you'd like me to brainstorm with ya, let me know.

I sure wish I lived closer. . . Sounds like you boys are gonna be logging your tails off -- I'd like some of that action! For a little while anyway.


----------



## funky sawman

Cat parts are also easer to get than john deere parts. I like the 518 because it articulates in the middle


----------



## DHIBBS75

on all the new cat eq they have got some small and very intense lights I believe only 24 volts..... there only about 3 in square... very bright.... next time your in paducah go to the cat dealer look at the lights see what you think....


----------



## Slamm

DHIBBS75 said:


> on all the new cat eq they have got some small and very intense lights I believe only 24 volts..... there only about 3 in square... very bright.... next time your in paducah go to the cat dealer look at the lights see what you think....



I forgot about that 24 volt deal on the Cat, thanks for the reminder. Its going to start getting into the mid to high 30's and low 40's so its going to be time to start skidding at 2am ---- 9am, then grab a saw and cut with the cutters the rest of the day.

For the most part this little wood and 250bdft average trees is great for the 540B Grapple, Jerry is really pulling a lot out quickly with that little machine. The swing boom is great for moving tops and going through and picking out the ones that got missed or were too much trouble for the other skidders. I can grab tops and trash move it away, grab the one or two logs underneath make a hitch and then take it out or add it to a few more up the trail, for a bigger hitch. The 518 is kind of a cadillac to ride in, it just kinda lumbers over stuff, I still hate the Esco rotation motor, but I'm getting to where I can outsmart it and line it up pretty good, between that and the swing function I can get my angle on the logs pretty quick. The things you can do with this swing function is pretty neat. I am still finding little tricks to do with it.

We cut today for awhile after dark, as there is about 1" of snow and we could still see halfway decently. Mostly we just dropped a lot of trees and then topped them in the dark. We got a house rented, so we won't have to drive so far now each day. I'm moving a 300 gallon fuel tank out, going to leave at 4am so Dot doesn't see it, LOL. Will lift it off the truck with chains and the swing boom, LOL, its pretty handy. It is also great for placing construction mats over creeks/ditches. Didn't get any pics of today, was just going to hard and didn't think about it.

Karen mailded a smashed 260 (I didn't do it), Stock 441 (To get ported and an 064/066 hybrid (new crankcase, bar stud stripped) up to Terry to get worked on.

Got a new roll of Amsteel 3/4" 130 feet obviously haven't put it on yet. There is an energy drink in the picture for reference. I can straight arm that spool with one arm, its that light.






Here is somthing weird, the tooth in the middle is on the wrong side of the drive link:









I'm going to call Cat about those lights.

Later,

Sam


----------



## T_F_E

every chain i have got from baileys has two cutter on the same side like that just the way the link count works out


----------



## Slamm

T_F_E said:


> every chain i have got from baileys has two cutter on the same side like that just the way the link count works out



No it literally has a left side cutter on the right side. I will have to get a better pic of it. I have seen where there are two properly installed cutters on the same side, back to back, but this cutter is on the wrong side of the drive link.

Sam


----------



## 385XP

John deere has some pretty nice light they put on the new dozers may be worth checking into too.


----------



## mingo

Slamm said:


> I forgot about that 24 volt deal on the Cat, thanks for the reminder. Its going to start getting into the mid to high 30's and low 40's so its going to be time to start skidding at 2am ---- 9am, then grab a saw and cut with the cutters the rest of the day.
> 
> For the most part this little wood and 250bdft average trees is great for the 540B Grapple, Jerry is really pulling a lot out quickly with that little machine. The swing boom is great for moving tops and going through and picking out the ones that got missed or were too much trouble for the other skidders. I can grab tops and trash move it away, grab the one or two logs underneath make a hitch and then take it out or add it to a few more up the trail, for a bigger hitch. The 518 is kind of a cadillac to ride in, it just kinda lumbers over stuff, I still hate the Esco rotation motor, but I'm getting to where I can outsmart it and line it up pretty good, between that and the swing function I can get my angle on the logs pretty quick. The things you can do with this swing function is pretty neat. I am still finding little tricks to do with it.
> 
> We cut today for awhile after dark, as there is about 1" of snow and we could still see halfway decently. Mostly we just dropped a lot of trees and then topped them in the dark. We got a house rented, so we won't have to drive so far now each day. I'm moving a 300 gallon fuel tank out, going to leave at 4am so Dot doesn't see it, LOL. Will lift it off the truck with chains and the swing boom, LOL, its pretty handy. It is also great for placing construction mats over creeks/ditches. Didn't get any pics of today, was just going to hard and didn't think about it.
> 
> Karen mailded a smashed 260 (I didn't do it), Stock 441 (To get ported and an 064/066 hybrid (new crankcase, bar stud stripped) up to Terry to get worked on.
> 
> Got a new roll of Amsteel 3/4" 130 feet obviously haven't put it on yet. There is an energy drink in the picture for reference. I can straight arm that spool with one arm, its that light.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is somthing weird, the tooth in the middle is on the wrong side of the drive link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to call Cat about those lights.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam



Sam I'm interested in the amsteel. What does it cost a foot and where can you get it?


----------



## Slamm

mingo said:


> Sam I'm interested in the amsteel. What does it cost a foot and where can you get it?



It costs about $5 per foot or less. You can get it at Paducah Rigging in Paducah, KY
. Ask for Jay.

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

5.00 per foot


----------



## mingo

Slamm said:


> It costs about $5 per foot or less. You can get it at Paducah Rigging in Paducah, KY
> . Ask for Jay.
> 
> Sam



Thanks


----------



## BlackOakTreeServ

SLAMM, Very nice job, keep posting the pics and vids!!...thats comming from a CA big tree man(were not all mean, Im one of the nice one's, not nit picking your operation )

I own my own tree service business and dont need people telling me how to run or how I cut (I do use long bars on my saw's, but thats how I do it) when it comes to "throwing big tree's"

Keep up the good work man.


----------



## Slamm

Just some pics ... 

518 with Swing Boom:
















Here is a nice whoops, the operator ran a 3" branch through the grill then smashed the top of the radiator and my new exhaust from the bottom of the sheetmetal. So the 540B Grapple is down for the few days. I already have a new radiator, but it didn't have the oil cooler in it, so I am fabbing another one up front for that .... it sucks. Doing it in the mud and cold, LOL:




Shoved the headlight over the radiator and it got in front of the fan and performed this magic, LOL:


----------



## Slamm

Had to use a couple of bottles of Husky Mix until I got this shipment in. Thank God for Amsoil. That Husky stuff stinks and smokes like crazy at 50:1.




Pulling a new blade for the 540B out of the back of the pickup truck:




"Swinging it" LOL




Nose Cone off of the 540B to get to the radiator. Karen is operating the boom. Handy skidder that Swing boom is, LOL:





Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Oh, a report on the 441 BB ................. well, it killed itself. We ran it full time for 4ish days and somewhere inside a felling cut it locked up. Pulled the muffler and found aluminum parts and such. Terry, thinks its the wrist pin clip, as they aren't as good as Stihl's and are very weak. At this point, we liked the power/torque of the BB 441 but didn't get to side by side cookie cut with it to be able to notice much if any difference in power over OEM. I say the torque was higher, but Bert would not admit to that claim and the few times in those 4 days that we switched saws from his ported OEM 441 to this BB441 it did seem like the OEM was faster, but it could have been the tune, as it was close, and his OEM is very well broken in.

Either way, its on its way back to Terry's and he has ported another OEM cylinder and piston to put on it and send it back.

At this point, I have no use for the Big Bore kits, I have never run one that I thought was much better than the OEM version when ported and that is the only way we run saws, and they are not more reliable. So I give up on them. For the price I can get new OEM cylinders and pistons with quality clips and rings, it is crazy of me to use a aftermarket Big Bore kit and take the risk, so I'm out of them altogether.

My painted, ported 441R is doing very well, I love that saw more and more daily, and it is a dream to operate and is very fast. This is just a pic I took of it to send to the Stihl dealer to tell him to order a rubber side cover for Bert's 441. The paint is holding up pretty good, and I am not babying it in the least. I changed it over to a half wrap as we cut too low for a full wrap setup. The gas mileage this saw is getting in the cooler air is remarkable, it just runs for a long time on a tank of gas, I could not be more happy with a saw. Rare is the moment that you think you have enough power and I have told Terry, that this one has "enough", but he says he can get another 20% with some piston modifications. Right now the thing will hang right with modded 660's and has grunt to spare.





We are cutting everything 5" and bigger and even the dogs are getting into it. This dog love to drop what he can handle and drag it off to the landing, LOL. This video does not come close to showing what he tries to do. He will chew on trees that are big, cause that is what we are doing, LOL.




Later,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Hey Sam. . . If you like the Amsoil (I ran it forever), you might want to try Royal Purple 2-stroke -- it's sold at our local Napa, and a bit cheaper than Amsoil. Either one is a good oil though. 

Glad to see the swingers are paying for themselves. . . I sure like them.

Merry Christmas to you and your family!!


----------



## lfnh

Slamm,

Are you still leaning to changing the controls over to joystick or leaving as is?

thanks for the pics.


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Hey Sam. . . If you like the Amsoil (I ran it forever), you might want to try Royal Purple 2-stroke -- it's sold at our local Napa, and a bit cheaper than Amsoil. Either one is a good oil though.
> 
> Glad to see the swingers are paying for themselves. . . I sure like them.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you and your family!!



I like Royal purple and the saw builder likes it, but it doesn't dye the gas Blue (I think), and I can get the Amsoil saber for$8.70 delivered to the door. Also Amsoil can be run at 100:1 so if I screw something up in the mixing at 50:1. I have a very safe margin. I have run Amsoil at 80:1 and 100:1 for months on end without any problems and know several professionals that still do, but have figured for the cost difference I could afford thke extra protection that the 50:1 provides. It makes the piston look like a smurf.

I can get all things at NAPA for cost so I am going to check on the price difference between the two and compare, and I appreciate you bringing that option up as I did forget about it lol.

The swinger is great I will get so videos later.

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> I like Royal purple and the saw builder likes it, but it doesn't dye the gas Blue (I think), and I can get the Amsoil saber for$8.70 delivered to the door. Also Amsoil can be run at 100:1 so if I screw something up in the mixing at 50:1. I have a very safe mating. I have run Amsoil at 80:1 and 100:1 for months on end without any problems and know several professionals that still do, but have figured for the cost difference I could afford the extra protection that the 50:1 provides. It makes the piston look like a smurf.
> 
> I can get all things at NAPA for cost so I am going to check on the price difference between the two and compare, and I appreciate you bringing that option up as I did forget about it lol.
> 
> The swinger is great I will get so videos later.
> 
> Sam



I ran Amsoil at 100:1 for a while, then 80:1 -- I honestly think it led to a couple of my saws prematurely wearing out. Now I do 40:1 for it all -- it makes me feel safe. LOL

The Royal Purple is purple, so it makes the fuel purple. 

If you can get stuff at NAPA for cost, it may beat that Saber price (you pay a darn good price for the Amsoil though), but I'm not sure.

I just buy it retail there, and it's $10.00 and change for a quart. So I imagine cost is around $8.00 or less a quart.

Have a good Christmas!!


----------



## Slamm

lfnh said:


> Slamm,
> 
> Are you still leaning to changing the controls over to joystick or leaving as is?
> 
> thanks for the pics.



Yeah, I still want the joystick with thumb switches on it, and here is why, with the swing boom you typically either pick from the right or left side of the machine to pick you logs up from, due to the lack of visibility directly behind the boom's tower. Well working on the right side (the same side as the levers) isn't so bad because you can use both hands easily to operate two or three levers, pretty quickly, but if you want to pick logs on the left side it is hard to contort your neck and upper body around to use both hands on the levers at that point. That is where a nice joystick mounted on the end of the right armrest would be the ticket. The swing boom is 5 functions so the joystick would be two and the three thumb switches would make up the rest for a total of five. I want to put a small lever valve/control pretty close to that joystick for the blade control that way everything is right there. The 518's platform is a good size for this larger swing boom. At this point I have picked up some very nice 30" white/red oaks and if they don't have any Y's or forks on them this setup can move the log or place that log with full control at even the farther reaches of the system with power. The only times that power had been an issue is with large trees and forks and Y's that are getting hung up on stumps and other trees, and that is going to happen with anything.

I just can't believe that everyone doesn't want one of these, LOL, as it takes a great operator about 20-30 hours of operation just to figure out what this thing is capable of doing to its max, and to also figure out the best way to optimize its capabilities toward production. I can build a nice hitch for one or two other skidders and then build one for myself and pull it out. Just image there isn't any log or situation that you back up to, that you can't easily walk away with a log in tow quickly and effortlessly, and again building nice hitches is easy and consistent without being hard on the rest of the machine by driving over other logs and crap just to bunch logs together.

Lately here the weather has been hit or miss for the skidding aspect and yet the cutters haven't had to quit cutting due to topping in too many logs or the logs getting lost in all the tops and brush, because I can find them and easily get them out with this big swing boom. I just grab the tops and throw them somewhere else and then pull the 5-8 logs out from underneath and move on. We don't try to top in the logs, but sometimes it happens and this machine has allowed us to keep on working and cutting without causing too much trouble from the skidder operators point of view. I have the other skidders get the easy logs that are laying around and I get the hard to reach ones bundled up and either pull them out or the hitch is ready for the other single function grapple to get efficiently, while I build him another hitch out of logs he would have to use the blade and bulldoze to get at the logs. I grapped 100+ logs that were just across a 3' deep ditch and never had to back all the way across it. Also the contract states we can't leave tops in the creek, well that isn't a problem I just drive along and pull them out and set them on the side and move on, very, very easy.

While it is nice to be right there and pick the logs as soon as they are dropped or at least be pretty close behind the cutter, so as to not get topped in, it isn't always possible and in our case with 2-4 guys cutting everything down rain, snow, wind, sleet, darkness or muddy (7 days a week), and the skidders can only work when the ground is frozen, the cutters are winning, but give my skidders just a few hours each morning of frozen ground and we can reel them back in to a reasonable extent on short skids, which is what we have right now.

I'm getting use to the Esco grapple, but that rotating motor is just dumb, I can operate it and get the log on the first time every time now, but you certainly have to outsmart an ignorant system there ...... in my opinion. The Deere rotating head is light years ahead in the "smarts" department on that part.

Later,

Sam

That is my take on the swing booms.


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> I ran Amsoil at 100:1 for a while, then 80:1 -- I honestly think it led to a couple of my saws prematurely wearing out. Now I do 40:1 for it all -- it makes me feel safe. LOL
> 
> The Royal Purple is purple, so it makes the fuel purple.
> 
> If you can get stuff at NAPA for cost, it may beat that Saber price (you pay a darn good price for the Amsoil though), but I'm not sure.
> 
> I just buy it retail there, and it's $10.00 and change for a quart. So I imagine cost is around $8.00 or less a quart.
> 
> Have a good Christmas!!



I have heard that about the 100:1 Amsoil, I won't argue it, because I don't know. I just know I have used it at that, and nothing went BOOM, LOL. I use it at 50:1 and saws with 3 years run time logging look very nice and clean on the inside as per saw builder. If I get to the lower end of a bottle and don't have enough to make it 50:1 it doesn't bother me to run it at 75:1 or 95:1 or 65.78:1, as long as its somewhere between 50:1 and 100:1, I run it.

I got busy working and didn't keep up with my purchasing of supplies and ran out, bought some Husky stuff off another guy and man, that stuff smoked and stank badly, burned my eyes if I was on the wrong side of the wind, LOL. I just ordered those 24 bottles and it came out to $8.70 per quart, with tax and shipping to my door and it came 2 days after I ordered it. I get some kinda special deal on it because of a buddy of mine. Terry the saw builder love Royal Purple, we go back and for about Amsoil vs Royal Purple, but they are both really good. I got Royal Purple mixed up with Mobil 1 that doesn't dye the gas blue or purple, which is dumb, dumb, dumb.

I use 100LL AV gas which is light blue and then put Amsoil Saber in it, which makes a dark blue and then put it into blue Kerosane jugs and me or Karen are the only ones that mixes it right at the airport, so that everyone knows that gas from the blue jugs is for the saws and nothing else, and it is always safe to use it, IF IT IS IN THE BLUE JUGS, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> I have heard that about the 100:1 Amsoil, I won't argue it, because I don't know. I just know I have used it at that, and nothing went BOOM, LOL. I use it at 50:1 and saws with 3 years run time logging look very nice and clean on the inside as per saw builder. If I get to the lower end of a bottle and don't have enough to make it 50:1 it doesn't bother me to run it at 75:1 or 95:1 or 65.78:1, as long as its somewhere between 50:1 and 100:1, I run it.
> 
> I got busy working and didn't keep up with my purchasing of supplies and ran out, bought some Husky stuff off another guy and man, that stuff smoked and stank badly, burned my eyes if I was on the wrong side of the wind, LOL. I just ordered those 24 bottles and it came out to $8.70 per quart, with tax and shipping to my door and it came 2 days after I ordered it. I get some kinda special deal on it because of a buddy of mine. Terry the saw builder love Royal Purple, we go back and for about Amsoil vs Royal Purple, but they are both really good. I got Royal Purple mixed up with Mobil 1 that doesn't dye the gas blue or purple, which is dumb, dumb, dumb.
> 
> I use 100LL AV gas which is light blue and then put Amsoil Saber in it, which makes a dark blue and then put it into blue Kerosane jugs and me or Karen are the only ones that mixes it right at the airport, so that everyone knows that gas from the blue jugs is for the saws and nothing else, and it is always safe to use it, IF IT IS IN THE BLUE JUGS, LOL.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam



That's a good idea for you and Karen to mix the fuel. . . That would definitely cut down on 'oh crap' moments with the saws. Your chainsaws are a good chunk of your overhead, and nukin' them unnecessarily would really cut into your crews Christmas Bonus! LOL

If you guys are using good AV fuel, that may also be why you're seeing longer life from your saws (not just what oil ratio you use). . . As opposed to the garbage we get at the pumps.

Is your saw builder a member here??

Hope y'all had a great Christmas! I made an all steel 48" canthook for my BIL in his shop yesterday -- while the girls were inside chatting away.

When I finished it, he painted it brown, I told him that wasn't the best color for the woods, as it made it look like a stick! LOL

He busted out the orange paint, and all is right in the world. Hahahaha

By the end of the day though, I developed a freaking head cold. :censored::censored: 

Looking forward to more vid's and pic's!!


----------



## banshee67

when in doubt, i always just add more oil. plugs are cheap
ive ran my 4 wheeler blowing purple smoke running at ~20:1 instead of 40:1..it sure smelled good with all that burning castor oil


----------



## tanker

Slamm,I've thoughroly enjoyed this very muchand willn say it is one of the best things I've followed on AS.As a firewood cutter,I appreciate the weighwood being left for me.I'm not a logger or any where close but I appreciate watching people do a good job at what they do.Thanks again for the pictures and the ability to be civil in the b.s. that went on here. Scott


----------



## woodguy105

I agree w/ Tanker. Great thread. It's always cool to see pics and how people run their show.

And the less bs the better!


----------



## Saucy

*Excellent Post*

Thanks for posting your work up with pics AND videos

Looks like a really professional job you ran, and the videos really give your post a great narrative.

Sorry about the saw as well and have a great new year filled with big tress and big saws!


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> That's a good idea for you and Karen to mix the fuel. . . That would definitely cut down on 'oh crap' moments with the saws. Your chainsaws are a good chunk of your overhead, and nukin' them unnecessarily would really cut into your crews Christmas Bonus! LOL
> 
> If you guys are using good AV fuel, that may also be why you're seeing longer life from your saws (not just what oil ratio you use). . . As opposed to the garbage we get at the pumps.
> 
> Is your saw builder a member here??
> 
> Looking forward to more vid's and pic's!!


 
Possibly on the AV gas, dunno. We have used 5-20 gallons of 93 pump gas in the last month because I ran out of AV gas and everyone that runs the saws didn't like it, stinks and saws seemed to not idle as well.

Everything I have including the Kombi 130 runs and idles great with 100LL. I think there is a gas station nearby where we are working, that has "Race Gas" so I might get that if it isn't too bad pricewise, otherwise, I'll just go to the little local airport. The airport by my house really caters to Karen when she brings a bunch of blue gas jugs with the mix already in the bottom of each or now we are getting 50 gallon drums of it because I am working 2.5 hours away and we are going through so much per day, that the mixing and aquiring of saw gas became a nusiance. The swing boom skidder makes loading and unloading the 50 gallon drum at the landing quite nice now, LOL.

I was talking with a local sawmill/logger/Husky dealer/mechanic and he said in the last 2 years he has probably replaced 300 fuel lines in his and customers saws. I have only replaced 1 fuel line in 6 years, every saw I have has the original fuel line except for one and I don't remember which one that is, LOL, and it didn't solve whatever problem I was having at the time, so it wasn't the problem.

Also I can't say that any of my saws have had more than 1 spark plug replaced per saw's life. I'm pretty sure that one of the 660's has only 1 spark plug replaced ever and that is when I switched it to a Big Bore.

So I would say that the 100LL AV gas and Amsoil mix is doing something good, as I really don't experience any of the problems that others seem to have, which is good because I don't/won't/dislike to work on saws, LOL.

As to Terry, the guy that works/modd's/ports my saws, he lives in Des Moine, IA, and is/has been a good friend for many years, that I know of he is not "on this forum", I don't think he gets into the computer too much. To me, Terry is the best, he treats every one of my saws as if it was his own baby, and I have never been anything but completely estatic with his work. All of his port work is done by hand and is very clean and polished looking. He is the reason that I don't/won't run a stock saw of any size, due to ineffeciency and just shear "slowness" of them.

He has turned all of my 441's into such well behaved beasts that I have no use for my modded 660's except as punishment for some unruly worker, LOL. I mean nobody wants to run the 660's now that he has these 441's running like screaming banshee's.

My best cutter, Bert, says he would walk 1/2 mile past the modded 660's to run the modded 441's with 28" bars everyday, and "That if you cannot enjoy cutting timber with these modded 441's you will never enjoy it and had better just walk out of the woods forever." - LOL. He just made that quote two days ago when I let him run my painted 441 for one day.

Terry, works for a land clearing company and has many years experience with modding everything that uses gas, diesel, hydraulic oil and/or air compressors. His air compressors are the best. He knows employees and what they are capable of doing to destroy all things mechanical and how to evade a lot of it before it happens, LOL. There isn't a machine made in most any field of work that he hasn't worked on or completely rebuilt at some point. I count him as one of two people that if I didn't have access to, I would have probably quit being self-employed, (the other one is a nearby neighbor who has everything, kinda like a salvage yard, I mean if you needed a spare tire for an aircraft carrier ...... he probably has it). I talk to Terry most everyday about fixing or modifying something on a skidder/loader/truck/saw or something everyday, and we bounce a lot of ideas off of each other with the goal of speed or reliability or improved efficiency as the main benefit.

Below are some pics of putting in a new radiator that didn't have the factory oil cooler built in below. I got this oil cooler from my neighbor for $20 and got everything to fit in the grill. I'm looking into having the damaged radiator fixed for a spare.





Oil Cooler in place:




Putting Nose back on with Swing Boom:




Everything looks good and fits, no leaks after running it for 30 minutes:




This black check valve was on the original oil cooler so I put it back onto this one. The fittings were weird on the oil cooler so I welded 1" to 3/4" pipe thread coupler (gold fitting) to the steel oil cooler's fittings.




The filter is one that Terry puts on the front of the 540's instead of that dumb huge leaking one that Deere puts on them.




Just saw this rig, by my neighbor's place. I don't know what they go for, but I'm betting there is more money in either the front end or back end or probably just the boom and grapple than I have in all of my machines, LOL. This thing is huge.


----------



## Slamm

Making Chevy commercials getting into work and then back out.








Here is a nice whoopsie!!! The Killer 660 was being operatored by one of the skidder drivers that doesn't normally cut, but it is so muddy that everyone is slaying trees and no skidders are pulling, well, he said he just started to notice smoke, LOL. NICE!!! Not sure what happened, but those colors on steek cranks are not good. This saw can slip a clutch so, it was dumb on my part to let him use it, not that he can't operate a saw good, but he has never experienced anything like this thing. So off to Terry it goes for new crank, bearing, oil pump and whatever else is nuked. Terry is going to modify a clutch so it can hold the power better and not slip like the stock ones.








Here is a 441 with some side cover on it that isn't a 441 clutch cover, I don't think. I think I mixed it up with a 660 clutch cover?????




The rubber flap is larger and stronger than the one that comes on a 441R and you can modify it to fit with a sharp knife, LOL. This rubber flap has the mounting holes spread farther apart which I guess is a 660 "thing", as I have some that are close and some that are far apart. Anyways, I like the rubber chip flaps they are nice. I don't care about the larger side covers, just as long as the larger flap is installed. (Yes I know the cover is cracked)




Here is the serial number if anyone is interested for the side cover. Like I said it fit, but something is different about it I think?????:





I'm off to make light rails for my skidders, it looks like we are going to get some freezing weather next week 20-23 at night and 38-42 degrees during the day. With lights we can work on the frozen ground from 2am to "Mudtime" we call it, LOL. Then cut trees, mark trees and buck trees during the day and sort logs and skid logs at night/early morning when the ground is frozen. I'm going to rent 1-2 of those portable light towers they light up about 4-7 acres as per data specs, should be somewhat helpful, but we'll see.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Yup, I'd say good fuel is really danged important for any machine, saw or not.

Good posts today Sam! Have fun out in the muck and mire!


----------



## Krokit

tlandrum2002 said:


> i can load a tandem in 20 minutes so its no biggy to have to stop and load the truck, now her loading the truck takes about 2 hrs and gets a 1/3 less wood on it but shes atleast doing it. i fired my truck driver for having beer in my truck , my last timber cutters were hacks and one was a saw muderer. im looking for help but not real hard. if a cutter comes along i would hire him but im not out looking.


 
i also live in ky lexington to be exact.the company ive been working for 15 years is being bought out and it looks like ill be on the soup line.i mainly just cut wood for firewood buisnees that ive been doing on the side but have been around saws a long time.love tennesee go down there a lot.maybe ill look you up next time im down to see if you still need a cutter.i love the woods and love getting out and cutting.Have told myself a bunch of times that i would love to be able to do this full time.Looks like i might get my chance to give it a try.:chainsawguy:


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## Slamm

Here is my 518 at work. Pulled 242 trees and pecker poles in 5.5 hours with this 518 Swing Boom and a 540B Grapple. Did this post with my phone so no narrative.































Sam


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## Slamm

After about 4 years, the extra port on the 361 broke the flap. A branch hit it. I borrowed a welder and welded this fender washer in place, for a quick fix.













Sam


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## Slamm




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## DHIBBS75

where abouts are you skidding..


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## Slamm

Southern Illinois


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## willbarryrec

Mr Slamm

Thanks for the thread.

I have really enjoyed reading about your setup and all the mods you do to all your gear.

You all seem to have a additude that is rare these days and that is busting hump,taking pride in and enjoying what you are doing.

Reading about your days out there makes me feel the need to get up off my a$$ behind this computer and go get some work done!

Keep on kickin!


----------



## Slamm

518 CAT Skidder with Swing Boom Grapple, here in the playing field.




Target rich environment:








540B Grapple leaving with a "little" one.




This is two day's skidding work at a new landing.




Below is the right side of the landing. At this location we leveled about 20 acres behind where that guy is standing. This landing of logs is only a fraction of them. During the next days we had to skid the logs out to a field more towards the right. We are currently cutting and skidding at 3 different locations due to levels of mud and landing space, or depending on where they want to see some "progress" quickly, LOL.




Weird stuff that happens, this stick was stuck behind the valve cover, about 3 days later something finally hit it out, it was stuck so bad that a sledge hammer or axe couldn't move it.




Truck leaving, early in the morning with a load.




Later,

Sam


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## 056 kid

I see your cutters don't put much effort into their strip layout, then again its probably really hard to manipulate wood with only one specific technique such as GOL.


----------



## Metals406

Hey Sam, would a forwarder be a viable machine for you? Seems like on these flat jobs, a forwarder might speed things up as it can load a bunch from where the trees lay -- granted, they'd have to be bucked into manageable lengths after felling.

I know you buck a lot, after the fact, when the buyer marks them -- but would it be possible to have him give you lengths ahead of time?

I guess the only catch would be that you would have another investment in yet another machine. And you'd have to use it on almost every job to have it payoff. 

You ever get the light-bar mounted on the skidder? If so, post up some pics, I'm curious to see what you came up with.


----------



## Metals406

056 kid said:


> I see your cutters don't put much effort into their strip layout, then again its probably really hard to manipulate wood with only one specific technique such as GOL.


 
Looks laid-out to me Ted. Look at all the tops going into the gully (from the right), and then butts' out, coming out of the gully directly towards the camera.

That just might correlate to their skidding plans.


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## 056 kid

Maybe so, I wouldnt want to run the skidder in it though. . .


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## Metals406

056 kid said:


> Maybe so, I wouldnt want to run the skidder in it though. . .


 
It probably looks worse than it is. . .


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## lfnh

Sam - 

Thanks for the latest shots (and all the earilier ones).

Nice looking at bare ground for a change.

Great progress.


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## anymanusa

wow, tons of good pix, a hot chick, A+ thread, and then a bunch of 'days of our lives' drama.

Don't let this kinda crap keep you from making more threads in the future, your pix are awesome.


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## 056 kid

Soap operas are about nefarious lovers not weird logging practices. . .


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## banshee67

056 kid said:


> Soap operas are about nefarious lovers not weird logging practices. . .


 
at any rate, they almost always include a troll, thanks for filling the position :kiss:
you sure do get burnt up watching this guys successful logging business go from job to job huh?


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Hey Sam, would a forwarder be a viable machine for you? Seems like on these flat jobs, a forwarder might speed things up as it can load a bunch from where the trees lay -- granted, they'd have to be bucked into manageable lengths after felling.
> 
> I know you buck a lot, after the fact, when the buyer marks them -- but would it be possible to have him give you lengths ahead of time?
> 
> I guess the only catch would be that you would have another investment in yet another machine. And you'd have to use it on almost every job to have it payoff.
> 
> You ever get the light-bar mounted on the skidder? If so, post up some pics, I'm curious to see what you came up with.


 
Traditionally, I am only paid to get select cut logs out and bucked up (Big, nice stuff). This is my first pulp job and we are doing it with handing cutting not machine cutting. We have to cut everything 5" and bigger, everything whether its rotten, dangerous had fence in it whatever we have to level the place. That being said, I am partly working with what I have and can pay for, and secondly not real interested in investing in going down that "pulp road" where it dead ends into a big financial mess of debt and bankrupcy. I have no future pulp jobs lined up, and I don't want any at this point, as I can't see the end of the regular jobs that we have for next year. I know that a loader and buck saw with delimber would maybe be nice, but I don't get paid to load trucks, that is always the other persons problem. I have one very large Ace in the Hole and that is my workers/friends, we work hard, period and we have very fast saws. To level that 20 acres it took me and Bert two days and then there was three guys for three more days, while Jerry and I started to skid it out. So I had a weeks worth of wages and around 26-36 gallons of saw gas to get it all cut and delimbed. We skidded out that big landing in 2 days and another big landing in another 2 days and we have about 1 day's worth of skidding to do and we are done with that 20 acres. Possibly machine cutters could do it faster and maybe a forwarder could do it "neater", but neither could do it cheaper and not much faster than what we did it in. The other big deal breaker for the machine cutters is mud, my human cutters cut from first light to one hour past light or more if we get a good snow and plan it right, by dropping trees for the last hour or so and then topping in the dark against the snow. No machine cutter can cut and delimb in as many crappy conditions that myself or my guys will or have worked in. We joke that the only thing we haven't cut trees in is an earthquake, LOL. The roads getting to the skidders are so bad that we have walked 2-3 miles in mud into the different cutting zones carring our saws and gas the whole way, worked all day and then carry everything back out and do it again and again. A typical machine cutter operator wouldn't have had the physical ability to just get to the machine much less get it to operate in the muddy conditions, and if they tried it would have made the ground very bad for the skidders.

The forwarder would possibly be nice, and I was told that one of the investors that hired us is getting a forwarder to get the pulp out the additional 2 miles of dirt roads to the rock roads for the truckers, but I don't know, cause it isn't my problem, LOL. I'm doing what I get paid for with what I have and so far we are putting up numbers that few have seen matched, and certainly not for the low tech way we are doing it, LOL. That said, again, I couldn't do it without the swing boom, there is no way. I can keep one or two skidders going full tilt all day with full grapples, and that translates into a lot of wood coming out in. I been working on sorting the sizes better in the woods and now we are getting landings that are half pulp piles and other half is saw logs with much less pulp in it. Because I have built the bunches in the woods with the appropriate sized trees in them already and it doesn't take me anytime to do this with the big swinger, and I don't really care how the trees are laying, cause I can put backward trees with backward trees and correct trees with correct trees, the cutters do their level best with directional cutting and for the most part it works great, but it is a complete waist of time to try to drop every darn tree in the same direction, when as the swinger operator, I simply don't care, cause it doesn't slow me down in the least and we aren't using wedges or anything just swinging what we can and the rest falls how it has to. I can make order out of the chaos of pixy sticks, LOL.

Bert with his modded 441 is dropping big sawlog trees in 28-34 seconds per tree at the stump, that is start to finish, the other night he was doing this for 1.5 after dark. He is fast and crazy, the guys were timing him with a stopwatch on a phone, he is amazing with a fast saw, and those were either oak or hickory and no less than 20" on the stump most were in the 26-28" range. Thats not topped, just cut through at the stump in under 34 seconds and walk to the next tree and again and again. He gets pinched once a day tops, has gone three full days with no pinching 2 weeks ago and is standing at his first tree of the morning waiting on first light, like a coon dog waits by a treed coon looking up. No machine cutter can do that, and he can lay them with pretty good control so as to not kill 3 guys topping for him in some instances, LOL. When me and him cut together we are dropping trees pretty close to each other and we just make sure we get a look from the other guy for approval and let'er go.

I will try to get some photos of the finished land, as it is just paths of leaves and stumps and then some brush piles of tops. It looks like vacuum went in there and clean everything up and piled the tops in neat piles for burning later. After the cutters have seen the process a few times they are getting better about dropping more trees with the tops together and the butts out, as best as they can so that its just a star shape or whatever pattern with butts out and tops in, then as I go by I might push a few tops into place and it all looks very clean for a clearing job. I really think the end customer's dozer operators will really like our work, and all of the wood that can be sold is coming out, right down to little sticks, cause I drop bunches of pulp size trees onto the few little trees that really aren't worth going out of our way to get, but since I position the bunch/hitch right on top of the little trees the next grapple skidder just picks them up for free and out they go to be turned into pulp, and since most are under 24' already we don't even have to buck them at the landing, they are just free weight and that makes for a very clean site, certainly more than what the contract stated we had to do.

I have the material and lights for the light bars and have the tubes of metal that I'm going to use but didn't get a chance to build them yet, some things came up and we were getting so much done during working light times that I could stop to drive 2.5 hours back home or up to the machine shop to make them so they aren't done yet, but soon, as I do have all of the materials and measurements. One problem is the amount of wattage that I'm putting up there, 1300 watts, I have to wire that in and the alternators aren't going to like that, LOL. I have some solutions to the problem, but I want a lot of light so I am still working on that small obstacle, and maybe its nothing, but I'm still working it over in my brain for now. You will like the design I have come up with super easy to make and the skidder could be lifted by the light bars when I'm done with them and for cheap too.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Looks laid-out to me Ted. Look at all the tops going into the gully (from the right), and then butts' out, coming out of the gully directly towards the camera.
> 
> That just might correlate to their skidding plans.


 
I see junior is still thinking he knows all and we don't, LOL.

Yes, there is a system to the madness, typically the trees are studied, and groups of trees get dropped with the tops together and move to another section and do the same. I tell them to not get too hung up on it if a few trees don't work, just drop them and move on.

All of my guys are good cutters and they all are good skidder drivers so at any point one of them might have to skid out a crappy layout, so nobody is intentionally dropping trees in a stupid manner just to say they got them down. We work together as a team trying to make money, if one guys screws up we all suffer.

When we were dropping tree one day in 40 mph winds, we did get several acres to all fall in the same direction ..... east with a west wind. There was one big rotten white oak that wanted to fall west and it did ...... the next day, LOL.

There are few cutters/loggers that would work as consistently as we have in every single type of condition, and certainly not those windy days 20-40 mphs for several days. Most cutters start whining at about 15 mph and 20 mph is certain suicide, LOL.

Put I guess, there is always going to be someone better, LOL.

Sam


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## redheadwoodshed

Really like the thread you started!Keep it up, if you can find the time.


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## 056 kid

Just because I comment on strip layout dont mean I know it all.

Someone quote me so the the flat lander can read. .


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## Slamm

banshee67 said:


> at any rate, they almost always include a troll, thanks for filling the position :kiss:
> you sure do get burnt up watching this guys successful logging business go from job to job huh?


 
LOL, while it surely seems prideful and that is not my goal, but I was wondering when someone was going to figure that out or see that.

I'm sure the first to admit I don't know everything, but if I don't know what I'm doing I sure have a lot of work to show for the ignorance and stupidity, LOL, while those that are throwing the stones, don't seem to have anything but a few pulled fiber shots of 10 trees and thats about it. Others are looking for work and complaining about the lack of logging work, and I'm hiring people and getting more machines paid for and making money, and certainly having fun by getting to work with guys that love to work.

I don't get it, but that is the internet for you. Some people just get off, on griping about everything that isn't done how they would do it. Some things aren't right or wrong they are just different. My stuff is all paid for and my guys make the wages they ask for, not what I tell them they will work for. I rent a house for them to live in and paid for most of their meals and if they need boots or winter clothes or gloves or something I get then what they want or need. Everyone runs modded saws ...... they all love that, LOL.

Thanks,

Sam


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## 056 kid

Something here does completely light my fire I will openly admid. Like, it makes me really angry. I guess it is because I was trying to be helpful in the very beginning, that of which was not greeted with anything but a dose of ####.

Yea slamm seems to be doing really good. and I guess that is what does it. A guy that doesn't even know how to put a chain back on it's rail without disassembling the saw, a guy that pays 5 dollars for a foot of rope, a guy that uses rope, A guy that loads someone's trucks with a bob cat, 
A guy that seems to have everything in his favor, to the extent where he doesn't even have to play by all the rules, how can you fail? 
I have never seen or herd of a logger that has the capability to cut 20 acres in 2 days yet he has to wait for boss man to grade logs for him, and then have a different party haul the wood? WTF? 

To me this is the highest levle of farmer logging. Ide rather be pulling wood out of the biggest trees I can find on the planet. 


Damn you make me angry Slamm. I feel like you dont have respect for logging. Just throw a bore cut in her and say #### it. you got it easy dude. That rope you use, it would not last 2 days in the setting that I worked in, it'd snap like a shoe string trying to get a big top 120 feet up on a skid road. The nonchalant way of flopping timber would not last either. Its obvious to me, but the super mega sized landings wouldn't work either. Ive cut on mountain sides that didnt have 1 road on them. The whole landing, the main road, and every skid trail cut out with a d5, and made with logs, and dirt, Trucks have to be dragged around with a skidder to get them next to the loader, then they have to be driven by someone with skill so they don't end up turned over.


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## atvguns

Kid your problem is you are stuck in the (where I come from we do it like this)
mode you need to just accept it for what it is and move on. Don't try to change everything you don't understand


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## lfnh

Sam -

Couple of posts back,in your answer to the joystick, you mentioned getting
used to the Esco rotator and the Deere rotator having more smarts.

Was this related to picking logs/tossing tops or just maneuvering the
grapple in general.

Just interested in hearing what differences you find between the two.


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## 056 kid

atvguns said:


> Kid your problem is you are stuck in the (where I come from we do it like this)
> mode you need to just accept it for what it is and move on. Don't try to change everything you don't understand


 
Your right, but since I live on both coasts, (and even though not here on the west coast, I have done high lead logging) do I cancel him out? LOL.


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## Slamm

lfnh said:


> Sam -
> 
> Couple of posts back,in your answer to the joystick, you mentioned getting
> used to the Esco rotator and the Deere rotator having more smarts.
> 
> Was this related to picking logs/tossing tops or just maneuvering the
> grapple in general.
> 
> Just interested in hearing what differences you find between the two.


 
The esco grapple is not the brightest idea that fell into logging. That being said, I don't want to say that I'm too dumb to figure it out, but the rotator motor and gear drive on the Deere is stronger and more precise allowing for better or more exact placement of the grapple. With the Esco you kinda flop and drop it and hope it lands with the tongs on both sides of a log. I'm exagerating a bit, but it isn't the same precise control that a Deere's control has, and not by a long shot. I think the newer Esco's are better, but someone else with more experience would have to chime in on that, as I have zero experience with anything that is newer in relation to skidders, mine are all old ones, LOL.

The stronger Deere rotator is nice for when logs are under tops or branches and with the Deere rotator it will just go ahead and spin that grapple no problem, twisting branches out of the way, where as the Esco grapple just gets stuck and you have to pick the grapple up out of the branches and then spin it and then drop it through the top.

Again, if you had to get an Esco grapple it obviously isn't the end of the world as billions and billions of feet of timber have come out of the woods with Escos, I just happen to think that Deere's way of doing it was a better idea ..... starting back in the 1980's.

Hope that helps,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Have a beer Ted, relax.

Let Sam row his boat the way he wants to row it, and you row your boat the way you want.

We might log a little different here too, but that don't make us logger queers. We have all the steep ground, we have all the bad weather, but a man will run his show the way he wants to run it. . . Right, wrong, or indifferent. If it works, it works.

Let people be adults and have free volition. . . Just as others should allow you to make choices, and have free volition. 

Enjoy Sam's pictures for their simplicity for Christs sake, and quit nitpick'n the #### out'a him. He's a big boy, he can handle his business.

Now go cut something down damnit! :chainsawguy:


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## Slamm

Half day of work today for me, its Grandma's 96th birthday. The guys are still out working in a new 126 acre bottoms job, while it is snowing so they are coming after they pull some more trees. We just started this job two days ago and I'm going to split the guys up and some will work up north here and some will work about 50 miles to the south where we rented a house.

Here are some pics of the front 20+ acres portion of the clear cut job, we didn't leave much behind. As you can see most of the tops are together and any dozer work afterwards should be pretty easy for whoever has to do that.

There are still a few trees here and there to get, but maybe just a couple of hours of sniping logs with the swing boom.




















Here is a video of the front acreage of the clear cut. As you can see we cleaned it up pretty good. Some of the slopes where the tree all went downhill look really clean.


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## Slamm

Here is a video of the new bottoms job we just started a couple of days ago. They have already took some truck loads of logs out.




Here is the start of a new Amsteel 3/4" Rope/Cable it is 130 feet long. I used the last 100'er last year and its down to about 40 feet, I will splice it into this 130'er when it gets shorter.












Here is 130 feet of 3/4" Amsteel after pulling about 10 big trees. There is still room for more but this seems to be a good length for the little 540B Skidder's Winch.




Pulled out all the way to spool it in. The skidder is on the other side of the Mustang Skid Loader. If you can't reach it will this length you might be in a bad spot, LOL.




Here it is pulling a nice Pin Oak that we cut a 20'+16'+10.5' and 14'4".


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## Slamm

Its bad wet in this bottoms ground. We are just relying on the freeze at night in order to stay working. We can skid 1-6 times per trail then we have to move over or the ground will start pumping. The water level is only maybe 12" below the ground in this area, so there isn't much room for tire spinning or you sink really fast. I just drove this track seconds ago.




Here is Bert finishing a leaning maple. He was waiting for me to get the bigger pin oak skidded out before he dropped this one ontop of it.



It has some rot on the bottom, so he is butting it off while I drive past.




Topping some pin oak. The kerf kept pinching on the top of the bar.




I think, that is it for photos and videos right now. I have to go to the clear cut job tomorrow and pull out about 30+acres of logs and pulp and won't have a computer around.

Later,

Sam

Sam


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## Metals406

Thanks for posting more Sam!


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## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Thanks for posting more Sam!


 
No problem, glad to do it. I don't know if they show up correctly, but some of the "photos" are actually videos, and I didn't state that they were/are so they might just look like pics. They are nothing special.

Later,

Sam


----------



## banshee67

Slamm said:


> Others are looking for work and complaining about the lack of logging work, and I'm hiring people and getting more machines paid for and making money, and certainly having fun by getting to work with guys that love to work.
> 
> I don't get it, but that is the internet for you.


 
exactly the way i was seeing it. while others are whining about which way you cut the tree down or what saw you chose to do it with, youre out living the american dream:flag:
thanks for sharing, keep em coming


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## Slamm

Thanks, Banshee. Here is somemore of this week.

Just for clarification. We are working two different jobs, the same clear cut job that we have been since early December and now we have started a new bottoms job, that started out to be 126 acres of 18" and bigger at Breast Height and now has grow by another 100 acres and will likely grow to several more neighbors, but what is killing us is the very soft bottoms ground and the thawing out of the mud. We don't want to overly damage our landing or make a mess that will discrouage the neighbors from wanting us to cut their timber, so we work as fast as we can when it is frozen and then mark and buckup during the afternoon warmup and then sort and stack the logs the next morning at 2am when it is froze again. Oh the joy of mud logging, LOL.

Here are some pics of from the landing when it got light enough to take a pic. I stacked those logs and smoothed the mud on the landing and beginning parts of the trails while it snowed. The piles on the left are blocking logs and the stack on the right is mat logs. There are a lot more logs in other spots, but I apparently didn't take any pics of them. What is coming out of this bottoms jog is Grade Ash, 16'/20'/24'/30' Mat Logs and various blocking/pallet lengths. We are getting a lot of pin oaks that we are getting a 20'er out of the bottom and a 30'er out of the top section. Great timber just don't have firm enough ground to work at maximum efficiency.










Here is photos from the larger clear cut job:
Here me and Jerry are making a bridge to get over to a large amount of logs that the guys cut in three days a few weeks ago. The creek banks are about 6-8' deep in spots, so we made a bridge.




Getting bigger:




And wider:




Here is a leaner hickory, I cut to make a bridge log:




Final result, smooth, 3 cuts:




We have since added a couple of logs to it and skidded about 50 logs over it, but then it got up to 46 degrees and we had to stop skidding before we damaged the trail too much.


----------



## Slamm

We hold the logs together with a chain and load binder. Put the chain around just the outside two logs and then run it underneath the other logs otherwise if you run it over the top or completely around the logs the tires and logs/knots will catch on your chain.





Here is a video of Jerry backing a log up to the bridge for placement:




I jumped off to take these photos of our bridge holding the 30,000lb skidder and side pulling a "close" log from the bank. There were so many logs laying everywhere, I would just back over the bridge grab one and then side feed it to the 540B grapple that was waiting for it, or I would just drop/stack them across the creek on the right there and he would come and pick them up. We have enough room on the other side now to begin staging logs and pulp piles on the otherside, but I was working fast and didn't want to stop too much for photos, as the ground was thawing out fast. I will get more photos of the operation next week, as its suppose to get down into the teens.








Here is just some shots of where the bridge is going to, Hammer and I took a walk to see what the guys had cut down:


----------



## Slamm

While some more of that is uploading I will put these three of the bottoms job in.

This is the road down to the landing. We have to stop traffic for the trucks to enter and leave the jobsite. This slows us down and is a pain, but you do what you have to do.




Bob, runs this picker truck and we are sure happy is comes to our little landing and hauls logs for us. We kept him running one day with 15,000+ board feet leaving, and that was just what Bert cut, Menno pulled out and I cut, sorted and piled for him, that day. We had frozen ground to work with for most of the day then.




Here is an oops, LOL, the track for the Mustang MTL20 finally decided to give out. I have ordered new tracks and they will be here Monday. So I moved all of the guys to the clearing job, because if the tracked skid loader can't function we are shut down due to the fact that we can't get the skidder close enough to solid ground of the landing, so I shuttle the logs over to those piles and sort them.


----------



## Slamm

Here is my buddy, Hammer, that walks the woods with me. He is pretty good at walking the logs and not touching the ground, LOL:




Here is more cut stuff:




















Edited this post and put these videos in it:


----------



## Slamm

Here is a lot of logs at different locations at the clear cut:


----------



## Metals406

What a sloppy mess! Thanks for the pics Sam!


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> What a sloppy mess! Thanks for the pics Sam!


 
LOL, yes it is. It is suppose to get colder this next week or two, so I think we should be okay. Trying to amass enough funds to finance "modding" the skidders a little and going over anything that might slow us down when it dries out this spring/summer.

I would like to get the skidders completely free of leaking any hydraulic oil, LOL. Then I want to start using only John Deere Hydro oil as I have seen the results of using this cheap oil and it isn't very good on the trannies. John Deere oil has a much better additive package in it and I now know of three trannys being tore down this week by farmers that starting using a cheaper oil. I'm going to check the differences between the Amsoi and Deere oil and see what I want to do. The CAT wheel loader and Skidder so far are doing good. Had to replace the fuel line in the 518 due to a section of bad rubber fuel line that was colapsing and starving the engine for fuel.

Later,

Sam


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## lfnh

Sure enjoyed the boatload of pictures of your work this afternoon.
Haven't had bare ground in 2 months. last snow brought the depth up to 3'+. The one coming this week could mean skiing in 2miles to fell, before mud season close down. hope you get a hard freeze up for skidding this week


----------



## Slamm

lfnh said:


> Sure enjoyed the boatload of pictures of your work this afternoon.
> Haven't had bare ground in 2 months. last snow brought the depth up to 3'+. The one coming this week could mean skiing in 2miles to fell, before mud season close down. hope you get a hard freeze up for skidding this week


 
Thanks for the good wishes. We were going to try and skid tomorrow morning but it was 56* today and that put a lot of heat into the ground. The overnight low is just 30* so I talked it over with the guys and we are just going to not try it tomorrow, as it just won't be worth starting everything up just to get stuck and muck everything up, epsecially when the forecast shows some good 20's and lower temps over the next week. The guys are going to pull and buck and sort logs at the clearing job and Karen and I are going up to the Bottom's Job to put the new tracks on the track skid steer (hopefully) on Monday, because its going to get really cold on Tuesday and I'm not really interested in putting tracks on in the cold with the tracks frozen in the mud, LOL.

You get a lot of snow, we just get enough to insulate the ground (4") and then turn to mud in a few days and it cycles like that every few weeks, its a pain in the butt. I dislike this time of year around this weather "belt" because it just doesn't freeze up hard enough to know you can work for 1 week, it gets cold then hot and half of the day its frozen then the other half is 12" of mud, and if you don't smooth out your tracks at 2am then the next morning you are bouncing around over froze ruts for the first part of the day and then making new ones in the afternoon.

Last night I hauled 14 bales down from the farm in IL to my place in Kentucky. Spent the day messing around here and rode a new jumping horse prospect my daughter (10 yr. old) is working on.
















Fun, fun,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Sam, have you ever considered a Yoder/Jammer and mobile spar setup? You guys could do awesome in this type weather as there would be no mechanical footprint. . . Once the ground dried up, you could hop right back into mechanical mode.

In a lot of cases (from the pictures I've seen in this thread) you wouldn't even need the mobile spar, and you could just use a nice big oak or similar for a tail hold. Just rig high, guy it off, and get to yarding.

You could wagon wheel your butts off, or do sets 60' wide at a time.

Not trying to spend your money for ya or knockin' what ya got going. . . Just thinking out loud.


----------



## hanniedog

What is the reason for doing the clear cut?


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Sam, have you ever considered a Yoder/Jammer and mobile spar setup? You guys could do awesome in this type weather as there would be no mechanical footprint. . . Once the ground dried up, you could hop right back into mechanical mode.
> 
> In a lot of cases (from the pictures I've seen in this thread) you wouldn't even need the mobile spar, and you could just use a nice big oak or similar for a tail hold. Just rig high, guy it off, and get to yarding.
> 
> You could wagon wheel your butts off, or do sets 60' wide at a time.
> 
> Not trying to spend your money for ya or knockin' what ya got going. . . Just thinking out loud.


 
Do you mean for the clear cut job? Is that what is on the Axmen shows with the big cable machines, that drag the wood up the hills?

If so, that is/would be a great idea for the clear cutting job, but this is the only clear cut job I have ever done, and doesn't seem to be any more in sight so far, but I would seriously consider that approach if the job was this big ..... again. I do see your point, there would be no need for wheeled machines in the woods, just drop everything and "cable" it out overhead.

What does one of those cost (used of course)? and how many people does it take to run one?

Sam


----------



## Slamm

hanniedog said:


> What is the reason for doing the clear cut?


 
To make money ................ LOL.

It is for some mining company, it is their way of getting around some dumb Indiana Bat program that the Sierra Club and other animal rights and tree huggers have going on. I don't know much about it, I just do my work and make my money ..... however immoral that might seem at the time.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Metal, that has me really thinking, that is a great idea period. I assume it works just as good for this flat ground as it does on hills.

I don't see it working for our select cut stuff though, but I am gettting some ideas in my mind. For instance I could cut a straight shot through a woods, and then skid the logs over to the Overhead main line and then "shuttle" them the greater distance over the mud to the landing and too the loader/trucks.

You see, typically the skidders can do 1 or 2 skids per trail, before they break through and sink to over the tires, but with a long cable stretched across the job, they could short skid select logs over a greater range with less "harsh" footprint on main trails, cause the logs could be "cabled overhead" down the "main trail".

Again, what roughly does one cost and how long of a cable can I "throw" out there? What does it take to move one.

I need it to move about 800 bdft of hardwood per pull or slightly less would be fine.

I like this idea of yours,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> Do you mean for the clear cut job? Is that what is on the Axmen shows with the big cable machines, that drag the wood up the hills?
> 
> If so, that is/would be a great idea for the clear cutting job, but this is the only clear cut job I have ever done, and doesn't seem to be any more in sight so far, but I would seriously consider that approach if the job was this big ..... again. I do see your point, there would be no need for wheeled machines in the woods, just drop everything and "cable" it out overhead.
> 
> What does one of those cost (used of course)? and how many people does it take to run one?
> 
> Sam


 
Not just the clearcut job, you can use them really effectively for select units as well. I never once clearcut when I was logging, it was all select/thinning (clearcuts were't allowed - ever).

I'll take some pictures of what they look like when done selectively. You'll see some lines (aerially) from what we called "sets". The fallers would cut the prescribed spacing, and we'd come in and yard it all out.

You just have to layout your strips (sets) for the way you're gonna yard it. You want to pull butts, and not tops. We used a Linkbelt 98 (lattice boom crane on rubber tires) and a Christy carriage. . . The other crew got the Maki (jerks LOL).

There are a lot of small yarders out there, and Yoders (A Yoder is a loader configured with a jib and a min of two cable drums). Some of them are excavators converted over. I watched a crew log with an old Jammer one time, and it used a big old Larch for the Spar/jib. The thing was probably from the late 1930's, and they were pulling wood just fine.

Some guys convert old dozers over, some guys make cranes into Yarders, some are purpose made (Like Thunderbirds). There was a skidder setup with a lattice boom and drums on the back of it on CL her not too long ago. . . It was in Northern Idaho, and the guy was asking like $6,500 for the whole ball of wax, and $3,500 for just the Yarder.

The FS in Missoula MT. came up with two yarders. . . The Clearwater and the Bitterroot. They'll send you plans for building them.

You can find crap loads of info online by searching 'skyline yarder', or 'high-lead logging', or like terms.

I don't think it would cost you that much to get setup, especially if you used a shotgun carriage.


----------



## Slamm

But don't you have to "clear cut" a path through the woods/forest in order for the cable to run and drag the hitches through?

How long of a cable can I string up? 1/4 mile is what I would need for many jobs.

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> Metal, that has me really thinking, that is a great idea period. I assume it works just as good for this flat ground as it does on hills.
> 
> I don't see it working for our select cut stuff though, but I am gettting some ideas in my mind. For instance I could cut a straight shot through a woods, and then skid the logs over to the Overhead main line and then "shuttle" them the greater distance over the mud to the landing and too the loader/trucks.
> 
> You see, typically the skidders can do 1 or 2 skids per trail, before they break through and sink to over the tires, but with a long cable stretched across the job, they could short skid select logs over a greater range with less "harsh" footprint on main trails, cause the logs could be "cabled overhead" down the "main trail".
> 
> Again, what roughly does one cost and how long of a cable can I "throw" out there? What does it take to move one.
> 
> I need it to move about 800 bdft of hardwood per pull or slightly less would be fine.
> 
> I like this idea of yours,
> 
> Sam


 
Let me do some online searching for equipment in your area, and see what I can come up with?

BTW, a crew of three or four is plenty. We always had two setters (hookers) in the bush, a chaser on the landing (he's the landing beotch LOL) and the yarder operator.


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> But don't you have to "clear cut" a path through the woods/forest in order for the cable to run and drag the hitches through?
> 
> How long of a cable can I string up? 1/4 mile is what I would need for many jobs.
> 
> Sam


 
That's where the "sets" come in. . . Think of them as thin "roads" for each "setting" (every time you reset your tailhold); it's so you can skid up them unabated. You skid laterally off either side of the skyline. 

Our Linkbelt was limited to 1,100 feet sets, and about 30'-40' either side of the skyline. In the Yarder realm, it would be considered a medium sized or so setup.


----------



## Metals406

This one is similar (not identical) to our crane: 50-ton Link-Belt HC-108B Conventional Latticeboom Truck Crane, John K. Huber John K. Huber Const. Co.


----------



## Metals406

In this post, from this thread, we were talking Yarders, and Patty brought up this little trailer unit. . . Similar to the Bitterroot Mini-Yarder.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/147985-17.htm#post2523318

Look at page 22-24: http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf99242820/pdf99242820pt02.pdf

Also: http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm83512305/


----------



## Metals406

Wow. . . This jobby comes with a bunch of extras: 







ForesTech Equipment Ltd. - pre-owned logging equipment


----------



## Slamm

You certainly have me thinking. I need to see what other bottoms/wet land type of work we have and how it is laid out. I'm going to talk to one of the guys that typically only buys bottoms ground in say 40 acre tracts, but this stuff is select cut and basically sparse large pin oaks 18" and up to say 30"+.

It would seem to me (ignorant of this stuff) that it would be a pain to keep hauling that cable around over and over each 40-60 feet in a wheel spoke pattern or moving over each time from say right to left or whatever.

I was thinking of combining wheeled skidders with one long mainline through say the middle of the job. Because it isn't the few trips here and there that kill the mudd or sink the skidders, its the repeated trips down the same trail over and over again. I could possibly grapple skid the logs over to the cable line and then haul it up/across to the landing with the yarder.

I'm not sure of the efficiency of this thought, but getting stuck or not working due to, too wet of weather isn't making money either. There are 5 jobs that are currently under about 2-8" of water and ice, with waders and a cable yarder we could be pulling wood ..... possibly.

I'm certainly going to mull this over in my head.

How would it work if the ground had little to no hills on it ............... basically flat. How would I get the "carriage" out to the logs/choke setter if it is flat? and no gravity to help?

Later,

Sam


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Metals406 said:


> Wow. . . This jobby comes with a bunch of extras:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ForesTech Equipment Ltd. - pre-owned logging equipment


 
That's pretty cool, it's almost a skidder and yarder in one machine.

Skarder :monkeyn:


----------



## slowp

Slamm said:


> You certainly have me thinking. I need to see what other bottoms/wet land type of work we have and how it is laid out. I'm going to talk to one of the guys that typically only buys bottoms ground in say 40 acre tracts, but this stuff is select cut and basically sparse large pin oaks 18" and up to say 30"+.
> 
> It would seem to me (ignorant of this stuff) that it would be a pain to keep hauling that cable around over and over each 40-60 feet in a wheel spoke pattern or moving over each time from say right to left or whatever.
> 
> I was thinking of combining wheeled skidders with one long mainline through say the middle of the job. Because it isn't the few trips here and there that kill the mudd or sink the skidders, its the repeated trips down the same trail over and over again. I could possibly grapple skid the logs over to the cable line and then haul it up/across to the landing with the yarder.
> 
> I'm not sure of the efficiency of this thought, but getting stuck or not working due to, too wet of weather isn't making money either. There are 5 jobs that are currently under about 2-8" of water and ice, with waders and a cable yarder we could be pulling wood ..... possibly.
> 
> I'm certainly going to mull this over in my head.
> 
> How would it work if the ground had little to no hills on it ............... basically flat. How would I get the "carriage" out to the logs/choke setter if it is flat? and no gravity to help?
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam



You'd be OK in a clearcut. You could do what used to be done here on flat ground, run a high lead setup. You wouldn't need a carriage, just butt rigging, which was what they were doing on Axmen last week. 

You'd save money as you would only need a two drum machine. One for the outhaul and one for the inhaul, or haulback. The haulback runs the line back into the unit, then the mainline drum spools it back in. 

The length of the skid depends on the capacity of your yarder. How much weight can it handle and then continue to get a decent payload to the landing? How much room for line is on the drum? 

A guy here got a fixer upper for $5000. It broke down a lot, but not as much as his ancient machine, and took a while to figure out how to run it. He had a lot of experience with equipment too. 

A former skidder logger managed to figure out how to run a yarder and carriage on his own. He made the usual mistakes, forgetting to set the brake so the mainline unspooled and made a snarl, not guying up his tail tree...

To run a flyer, shotgun, gravity system you need hills. The steeper the better. 
I don't think that would work there. 

You could do a thinning, but you'd need a three drum machine and a carriage. You'd have to have a haulback, the mainline and the skyline. You'd have to have a motorized carriage and they are very spendy. They will work with a haulback. 

To do a thinning, you need to cut out the skyline corridors unless you have wide spacing. Here, the logger lays out a straight line and a pathway, ranging anywhere from 8 to 12 feet wide is cut on that line. Straight is mandatory. The skyline won't bend for a curve. You can lay out a wagonwheel pattern, using one landing. This is efficient but it will make a mini-clearcut where the corridors come together at the landing. You can just go straight and hop down the road every 300 feet or so. This looks better but you have to find new guyline stumps for each landing, unless you have a Yoader. Yoaders are designed to not need guylines. 

The carriage goes down or up the skyline and is stopped where it is needed. The choker setter pulls out the line, which a motorized carriage will pull from they yarder, and hooks on the turn. 

That's another thing. Signals. I've seen guys work without Talkie Tooters and it is scary. Saw the chokersetter jump way up in the air when the guy on the yarder misread his hand signals and started bringing in the turn too soon. 

Talkie Tooters, or bugs, are the radio gizmos that make the whistle go. Like TOOT for stop, and TOOT TOOT TOOT for full speed ahead, etc. That is a language in itself. 

Koller makes a small yarder that fits on a truck or back of a tractor. It is a good one for a small outfit, because the yarder controls are operated on the ground so you don't have to climb up and down if you plan to run the yarder and unhook the chokers. 

That's just part of it. There's lots of rigging styles, depending on what you need to do or have to work with. I don't know the mechanics of rigging the blocks. 
That's the other thing, you need to know what species of tree is the best to use for guylines and tail trees. Will you need to top the tail tree? Also, what are the safety requirements in your state? That's enough from me. I'll find the link for yarder pictures.


----------



## slowp

Some links.

http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/73195.htm

http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/119913.htm

http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/74049.htm

In this one, they were using a skyline to get the logs to the landing and then were skidding them down a road that was too steep and muddy for trucks with skidders.
They too, had to shut down when things got too muddy for the skidders.

http://www.arboristsite.com/forestry-logging-forum/157104.htm


----------



## Metals406

Slamm said:


> You certainly have me thinking. I need to see what other bottoms/wet land type of work we have and how it is laid out. I'm going to talk to one of the guys that typically only buys bottoms ground in say 40 acre tracts, but this stuff is select cut and basically sparse large pin oaks 18" and up to say 30"+.
> 
> It would seem to me (ignorant of this stuff) that it would be a pain to keep hauling that cable around over and over each 40-60 feet in a wheel spoke pattern or moving over each time from say right to left or whatever.
> 
> I was thinking of combining wheeled skidders with one long mainline through say the middle of the job. Because it isn't the few trips here and there that kill the mudd or sink the skidders, its the repeated trips down the same trail over and over again. I could possibly grapple skid the logs over to the cable line and then haul it up/across to the landing with the yarder.
> 
> I'm not sure of the efficiency of this thought, but getting stuck or not working due to, too wet of weather isn't making money either. There are 5 jobs that are currently under about 2-8" of water and ice, with waders and a cable yarder we could be pulling wood ..... possibly.
> 
> I'm certainly going to mull this over in my head.
> 
> How would it work if the ground had little to no hills on it ............... basically flat. How would I get the "carriage" out to the logs/choke setter if it is flat? and no gravity to help?
> 
> Later,
> 
> Sam


 
There are ways around all your perceived problems. . . Just have to setup to overcome them.

I think you might be on to something with your single set idea, and skidding to it.

You also don't need a yarder per se, you could always use your shop and build a donkey.

You could also use a skidder for a tailhold. . . Or fab up a mobile spar. 

The old timers came up with stuff that has been lost to antiquity. . . Stuff we wouldn't think of. Just because things are done a certain way, doesn't mean it's the only or best way.

Think outside the box, and you will come up with something. Let me know if I can give you any help.


----------



## 056 kid

Quoted from metals406,
"_Just because things are done a certain way, doesn't mean it's the only or best way. Think outside the box, and you will come up with something. Let me know if I can give you any help. "
_
When I made that suggestion I was a stupid person, I got blocked by the OP,(ass hole). Good to see everyone getting a fair chance to help:at-wits-end:


----------



## Slamm

Thanks guys for the thoughts on the Cable Yarding machines. I am going to watch my operations/jobs and try to see how that way of doing it would work and/or if it is worth it. I can say that it would sure seem worth it if I could get something that I could string out for say 1000' and could pull in around 800bdft of hardwoods for under $10,000 or maybe I could make something. So I will look into it. I know of 5 more bottoms/swampy kinda jobs that we have this next year and maybe something like that will be helpful or needed. The other thing we are looking into is some pretty large flotation type of tires for 1 or 2 of the skidders .... probably the smaller 540B's cause they are so light.

Here is some photos from Monday's work:

Here I am in the CAT 518 Skidder and I'm sitting on the new bridge looking at the slightly cleaned up spot at the base of the hill, where we can stage logs before going over the bridge.





This is a video of that staging area and its relation to the bridge:




This tree is just about 15 yard to the right of the bridge and wasn't cut because it was going to land on a bunch of cut logs that we had to move. So Jerry and I, skidded those logs and now while he is shuttling them to the landing I am cutting this one down out of the way.




Here Jerry is skidding out a tree over the bridge and I notched and bored out the far side and I'm just waiting for him to get that last tree out of the way ... as it was where I am standing now. The saw is in the tree and just waiting to finish up the hinge and then "pop" the backstrap.




Here is the video of above photo:



Finishing the backstrap:




Video of finishing the backstrap .... one hand on camera and other operating the saw. Don't do this at home .... its not real smart.


----------



## Slamm

Here Jerry is skidding out the tree I just cut down. The saw log is on the left and the pulp is on the right of the Y.




Here is the video of the above:




We got 60 good logs out that morning and then I drove up to the bottoms job about 50 miles North and worked up there. Bert is up cutting on that job doing a select cut of 18"+DBH. The track that was broke Thursday night was shipped in Monday and we worked to get the tracks replaced. I have photos of that enjoyable operation, but they haven't uploaded yet.

Well that was my Monday, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Well got to the mud pit Monday afternoon:




Taking the old ones off:




I used the CAT 910 wheel loader to push the front idlers in and pick the back of the skid loader up and set it on blocks of wood:




Misc:




New track on:




Its Tuesday photos now, we got both tracks on and Menno started to clean up the landing, in preparation for the coming freeze tonight. Here is Bert after his 76th tree for the day. It was 29* and 20-30mph winds today. I should have taken more pics today, but I was just too busy and it was either raining hard or sleeting hard and we were covered in mud, sleet and water from rain. Menno and I were soaked to the skin from put the tracks on and getting the other machines ready for the coming -1*F weather.




Video below shows some pretty good winds, this was just down the road from where Bert was cutting all day today:



By the end of today, it was just straight sleet and about 2-4 inches of it everywhere. There were tree branches falling off just due to the weight of the ice. It was pretty dangerous to be the woods today. We had eyes on top of our heads. I'm mad for not photo'ing some of the trees falling over with the huge crash of icy branches, it was pretty neat.





I'm home to close on a new house we are buying tomorrow morning, so the guys are working tomorrow while I get that concluded. Will be back at it Thursday morning after the super cold (for around here) hits and makes everything solid for skidding.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Been awhile since I posted any working pics.
Here we are starting up again at a coal mine job its 300acres that had to be cut 5" and bigger. We back and finishing up the last 40 acres in a corner. Had to leave due to horrible rain this year 44" in the first half of the year and that is suppose to be the annual rain fall. That said, we had to quit today because it was raining, LOL.
Yesterday me and my 11 yr old son set everything up and maintenanced the CAT 518 Swing Boom and the John Deere 540B Grapple skidders and check the saws and tools.
Colton is driving the truck in with the tool trailer behind it. Had to fix the crossing with the skidder just to get the truck and trailer across.




The Swing Boom is the handiest rig for moving things.




Set-up:












The Pit:




My old bridge that was built in earlier pages of this thread was still there and worked all day today just fine. Glad the rains didn't wash it away, as 40 acres worth of logs have to get across it.




I'm hiding from Jerry the 540B operator up here. We cleaned out that pit and he couldn't see where I went, after that hole was cleaned of logs. The center of that area started pumping so I moved up this little hill and then we started to dive off of it toward the left.


----------



## Slamm

We pulled out 140 logs today, per Jerry's counter. This was the morning pile.




The was the afternoon's pile when finished, plus more up over another hill.




It started raining so will see how tomorrow goes, tomorrow.

Later,

Sam


----------



## rwoods

Good to see you posting again. Always enjoy the pictures. Ron


----------



## lfnh

Been wondering how you were getting along. Good to see some new photos.


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## Slamm

Logging got real inefficient and unprofitable due to the amount of rain, and associated issues, so stopped and did something else for awhile. Things are drying up so we are back at it. Don't have the full crew down yet. They are finishing up there other commitments, but are on their way after those. This job just requires me and Jerry to skid out the already cut and topped trees. Like a moron I left the keys at the house, but had already fueled and greased the skidders, so we worked all day without chainsaws, seemed wrong, LOL, but out of 140 trees I only found one that didn't get topped so far, so not bad. Running Skidders is much more profitable than running saws, LOL, so it was a good day.

Sam


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## Junkfxr

Glad to see that you're back and didn't get washed away.


----------



## Slamm

Well, we're back, but the ground is not giving up without a fight, as per the below photo, LOL.






It rained maybe 1/4" the afternoon/evening of the first day working and it was suppose to rain during the night. I watched the radar and never saw anymore rain go through there, so we went and worked yesterday, tried to pull a few skids, but the bottom ground between the logs and the landing is pumping bad. I got stuck here just trying to get some tops swung onto the trail. So we just staged logs for the rest of the day getting them ready to go. We are going to just start dropping the pulp wood onto the trail and drive over that, its really just one section of maybe 50 yards that is the problem.

Muddy trail aside we had a good day, it was cloudy no dust, due to light rain wasn't hot, only had to top two trees, took off early to ride horses with the kids and get ice cream from town. Not sure when the owner of the logs is going to mark them up, he said he wanted to, as he wants to haul some trees out tree length and cut them up at the mill, which is fine by me, less cutting and loading for me. We will probably pull out another 200+ logs and then need to buck up, as it won't be practical to haul the rest farther out into the field.

I only took two pics all day, here is the other one, its just a nice red oak that Jerry is pulling out. Will likely make a 20-24 foot mat log out of the first section and maybe a 16 foot out of the top section. These are nice sized for handling, can pull two quickly or three at a medium pace. Here Jerry just found it on a hillside and is going to stage it with 1-2 smaller logs for the longer skid out, when we get the bottom trail fixed.





Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

I'm not sure if the links are working above.
Here is the Cat 518 stuck in the main trail:




And here is Jerry with that red oak.




Try this again,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Here are the photos from yesterday:

Here I got the CAT 518 stuck again, in a wet bottom down another valley. I was grabbing the log tops from across the wet spot up the other hill and pulling them to this side.









Jerry taking a hitch to the landing off in the distance.


----------



## Slamm

Well here is the good and bad of today, we'll start the with bad, I've never flipped a skidder before, so this was a first. It wasn't very exciting, lost about 3 gallons of hydro oil and a few turns worth of time and production, but no apparent harm to the CAT 518. Was pulling two forked oaks and they caught on a stump at a bad time, when I was turning down a little hill. Jerry, pulled it over with the 540B and it started right up and pulled the next hitch out to the landing to check fluids.

























Here I'm standing on the CAT 518 cab, trying to figure out where Jerry is at. He had lost a log and it was partway up his "hill" trail, so he went back and got it.




Here is his next hitch of crap wood:


----------



## Slamm

Now for the good:

Some random hitch:





We are pretty happy with the amount of logs we got out today. This doesn't count or show a large amount of pulp only hitches that are way farther away. 1/2 of the middle row and everything on the long right row was pulled today. Several people thought it would take us two weeks to get this skidded out and we are basically done except for pulling the logs used for making the bridge and some pulp that was laid in the main trail to drive over.
Jerry




Me




Here is a pretty view, there are a lot of nice logs pulled today:




This row goes for a long ways past where you can't see it anymore, Everything you can see and some that you can't was also pulled today.




Some skidding videos:


----------



## NORMZILLA44

Nice stuff! Seem's like around here for awhile, upside down or on it's side was a normall position for a skidder, according to my buddie's pic's, and tale's. His family has a local logging company take's ball's to rune em in the hill's. My hat's off to em!


----------



## 056 kid

I told him he would flip that thing,


he managed to do it on a pool table:msp_biggrin:


----------



## Metals406

Hey Sam, were you seat belted in when she went over? Glad ya didn't get pinned or something. 

When I was in 6th grade, a girl in my class had a teacher quietly come get her out'a class. . . Her dad had been killed in a skidder rollover. Not cool.

BTW, does your wife scrub the laundry on them abs? LOL 

Ol 056 has a 12 pack too, but it's in his refrigerator! Hahahahaha


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Hey Sam, were you seat belted in when she went over? Glad ya didn't get pinned or something.
> 
> When I was in 6th grade, a girl in my class had a teacher quietly come get her out'a class. . . Her dad had been killed in a skidder rollover. Not cool.
> 
> BTW, does your wife scrub the laundry on them abs? LOL
> 
> Ol 056 has a 12 pack too, but it's in his refrigerator! Hahahahaha


 
No wasn't seat belted in, it would have been a good idea though, LOL. I did have to take some measures to not go out the door before the machine was settled, as it did almost happen that way. I just pushed myself into the upper back right corner of the cab and road it down. As soon, as it settled, I shut it off and climbed out and took the photos, as I could hear Jerry, coming up the trail. I positioned him and pulled the cable, hooked the cable to the right A-Pillar and he pulled it back over pretty easy.

056 reminds of this saying:

*It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worth cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat. 
Theodore Roosevelt*

I do my work, and it gets done faster and cleaner than most have ever seen it done, regardless of what state or region that I have logged in or who I have logged for. The guys that work for me like how I run things and they are given an equal voice in trying to get thing done as efficiently as possible, thats why they come back. What some hillbilly in cyberland, thinks is not overly important, as it is quite apparent that for all of his knowledge and experience that he has supposively amass in the last 2-3 years from when he cut his first tree to now (his first posts on this forum are some of the dumbest ever), he has little to nothing to show for it, except for a 12 pak in the fridge, LOL, but its good, it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

Like I always say, everyone can serve as an example, some of them, as bad examples, LOL.

We are back at the hotel, we have bucked up everything and are taking showers and going to go back out and start moving the machines to the front of the property, cause its 3 miles of dirt/rock road back to them and the low boys don't want to go to the back (I don't blame them).

Going to go work again on that nice swamp/bottom ground that we were on this spring and finish it, there is likely 150-200 acres still to cut. Timber buyer is up there now finishing marking a back line in the last corner of one of the properties. Bert, my best cutter is going to be coming down pretty soon, I saw that he called twice today. Jerry and I are going back to Kentucky to put a new undercarriage on the Mustang MTL20 Skid Steer and probably bring it up to move logs at that job. Will see how it goes.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Kingsley

I started reading from page one.

I like your work, your attitude, and your set-up, but most of all your willingness to share it all with us. Thank you for taking time from your day to make videos, take pictures, and post messages. It would be a pleasure to meet you someday.

Always liked the Kickapoo Valley area. I take it your father farmed somewhere around there? I had family that farmed outside of Hillsboro many years ago.

Take care and thanks again,
Marty


----------



## lfnh

Kingsley said:


> I started reading from page one.
> 
> I like your work, your attitude, and your set-up, but most of all your willingness to share it all with us. Thank you for taking time from your day to make videos, take pictures, and post messages. It would be a pleasure to meet you someday.
> 
> Always liked the Kickapoo Valley area. I take it your father farmed somewhere around there? I had family that farmed outside of Hillsboro many years ago.
> 
> Take care and thanks again,
> Marty


 
Well said.

Thanks for the updates Sam.


----------



## Slamm

Thanks for the good words guys.

I took several photos of us removing the bridge, not that it was a big deal, but it was a low key event, LOL, but this is the only one that was on the memory card, don't know what happen.





To me this is just a beautiful sight, LOL. There is more toward the left, but it is flat and can't get a photo of it. We bucked it all up in about 2 hours. We didn't have to cut all of it as the timber buyer had to quit marking due to someone at the sawmill about cut their hand off, so he left. We then just cut the forks and knots off and left a lot tree length for easier loading and hauling, as per instructions. The sawmill is about 8 miles away, and they have a deadline for getting all of the wood off the property, and there is still a lot to haul at other locations on the property.
This was one of our longest skids ever with some logs having to go up/down 3 hills, and it all came out really fast. Our setbacks were:
1. 540B had a leak in the hydro line from the brake nitrogen tank that had to be replaced.
2. Bridge chain broke and had to stop and fix it.
3. Cat518 got stuck twice.
4. Flipped the Cat518
5. Main trail was pumping and had to drop pulp in it to get across.









Here is what my gypsy setup looked like going down the road, LOL. The diesel tank is empty and sitting on 4 sets of skidder chains. I was glad the one hour trip didn't involve any major roads or cops, LOL.









Today we are going to replace the undercarriage on the little track loader.

Later,

Sam


----------



## slowp

Just to show the different definitions of Flat Ground. This is flat ground out here. I have never heard of anyone tipping over on level ground. Tipovers happen on slopes and when going off the edge of roads, or going too fast and losing control. 

Here are flat ground photos. Flat is 35% slope and less. However, while walking units, 50% slope can seem flat after being on 90% ground. These photos show our gentle and rolly flat ground. Higher up, the processor operator said he ran into trouble as the cab was self levelling so one does not realize how steep of ground one is on. We had to make some changes and switch the upper parts of the unit to helicopter yarding.











View attachment 194877
View attachment 194878


----------



## Slamm

Well between jobs, we put a new undercarriage under the skid loader and cleaned up the shop. 













Still need to organize the tools a bit, but its a vast improvement.









Unloaded my 4 chains, 2 have never been used and 2 have about 20ish hours on them, and I think I'm going to just sell them all, as they don't work very well in the bottomless mudd around here, because you just sink faster with them, LOL. If its dry, you don't really need them. They help in climbing over downed trees and branches, but just not worth the bother.






Here Jerry is clearing out a landing of a more appropriate size for our needs. We need to be able to get the log truck with the loader and pup trailer down the ramp and then back the semi down next to it for easier/faster loading. The bottoms ground is so dang soft its just hard to get much weight on it. I'm thinking about having some tree service companies dump loads of wood chips to kinda fill in some low spots. Not sure how good it will work, I know of some trail riding companies that have used wood chips with some success on muddy trails and areas used by horses and tractors, so will see, won't hurt anything.
Before:




After:


----------



## Slamm

Here is the loader and various tools and things loaded onto the long trailer. Stopped to fill the 100 gallon tank in Kentucky as it is a little cheaper than Illinios.





Moved the two grapple skidders one morning CAT 518 with Swing Boom on the back and the 540B Single Grapple on the front:




They are mating, LOL.

















We cut a few trees one evening and messed around, had to work in another line of work today, so didn't do much logging greased the skidder tonight and got things ready for tomorrow. Have to make some 28" chains in the morning, had a 25" bar on the painted Sawzilla 441 and I just hate using a 25" bar, just never got use to using one, I know where the tip is on a 28" bar, but a 25" is just weird, for this size timber it always seems like its too big or too little, and I like the reach of a 28" for limbing. Going to use the 28" Stihl Lite bars that I have, and see how I like them ............. not sure what there is to NOT like, LOL.

Sam


----------



## banshee67

great pics as usual, thanks for sharing
i really like the 2 mating skidders


----------



## little possum

Slick operation! Id be puttin in a application if I thought I was any good in the woods


----------



## Slamm

little possum said:


> Slick operation! Id be puttin in a application if I thought I was any good in the woods


 
Thanks, and I do need more workers, LOL, cutters and skidder operators, LOL. We have lotsa work.

Sam


----------



## little possum

Im just a drugstore firewood logger 

But the rolled over skidder reminds me of the 3 wheeled fellar bunchers that were across from the house. Bout every 30 minutes the skidder would be up there flipping them back upright. 3 wheels on a hill with trees falling just didnt work for that crew.


----------



## Jbevs

Glad to see this thread again. I was wondering what you were up to down in KY since I had been gone for a while and hadn't seen you post lately. Thanks for all the pics.


----------



## tjbier

Good stuff Sam, 
Top 5 thread on AS, IMO. don't care what the haters say.



Slowp, can you clear up the % numbers for me?
I'm not understanding them, 90% is not 90° right? cuz that is straight up.


----------



## little possum

No pictures of that stretched out big rig?


----------



## Metals406

tjbier said:


> Good stuff Sam,
> Top 5 thread on AS, IMO. don't care what the haters say.
> 
> 
> 
> Slowp, can you clear up the % numbers for me?
> I'm not understanding them, 90% is not 90° right? cuz that is straight up.


 
If you mean slope/grade. . . Slope is calculated rise and run like a roof, but a little different. Grade is the number of feet of rise per 100' of run.

So a 6% grade, would be 6' of rise in 100' of run. . . A 10% slope is actually rather steep. Some basic guidelines for tracked dozers would be: Dozers should not be operated across slopes (sidehill) greater than 45%, uphill slopes greater than 55%, or downhill on slopes greater 
than 75%.

A 2:1 ratio slope, is the same a a 50% grade.


----------



## tjbier

Metals406 said:


> If you mean slope/grade. . . Slope is calculated rise and run like a roof, but a little different. Grade is the number of feet of rise per 100' of run.
> 
> So a 6% grade, would be 6' of rise in 100' of run. . . A 10% slope is actually rather steep. Some basic guidelines for tracked dozers would be: Dozers should not be operated across slopes (sidehill) greater than 45%, uphill slopes greater than 55%, or downhill on slopes greater
> than 75%.
> 
> A 2:1 ratio slope, is the same a a 50% grade.


 
Ah, that make more sense! I instantly related it to ° and roof pitch, not the same. lol
Thanks.:msp_thumbup:


----------



## Slamm

Here they are loading some 16, 20 and 24 foot "mat logs".





Modest landing.





Some Stuff




A "fail", LOL.




A situation. The hackberry (right) has leaned over onto the maple (left) and I am going to cut both down.




Shows the lean of both trees.




Cut the maple first as it is under the hackberry.


----------



## Slamm

Here the maple has been dropped out from under the hackberry, and the hackberry is standing on its own.




Shows the hackberry being cut and how far over it is leaning.




Here the hackberry is also on the ground.




Why you don't always want to just stand at the stump and watch them go over ............ sometimes they travel a little, LOL.




Another traveler.




Domino'd these. Note the saw in closest tree, which hit the one I'm pointing at, which both of those then dropped on the two hung up (one balancing) in another tree.




All 4 are down.


----------



## Slamm

Here is a healthy landing.




to the right some




Here is the take apart of a forked tree that I didn't want to fall onto a nearby treestand.




Cutting the heavy leaning branch.




Branch down.




Cutting the main stem to go the other way.




Success.




I like to drop several tops inward and make one big brush pile with the butts sticking outward for the skidder driver to more easily see and get. Here is an example. At this point I think I had about 12 trees dropped on top of one another, all with the butts out and tops in.


----------



## Slamm

Here is just some videos, that I took. Nothing special just stuff that happened yesterday.
Here is a forked elm that I want to go away from the nearby skid trail, so we don't have to deal with moving the tops.
1st big stem



2nd littler stem.



Just a maple that went over near the skid trail.



This video just shows Jerry getting that same above maple and adding it to a smaller cotton wood that was also dropped parallel to the skid trail so as to not have to mess with the top. Its just a video to show those that have never seen a skidder run or pull trees.



Using the "big yellow wedge with wheels", LOL.




Here I domino two toward a new "brushpile"



It works nice when you can save a big heavy, to smash down the pile of other tops.



Some maple going over.


----------



## Slamm

Here are my cutting buddies modded 441's with 28" Stihl Lite bars and Full Skip Semi Chisel Stihl chain.









Getting gassed up.





Here was a fun one.





Heres a small one, I could have used a 12" bar on, LOL.





Logs going bye, bye.


----------



## Stihlman441

Nice pics and vids there Sam,i see your giving them Stihl light bars a woork at the refueling area.

I think your PM box is full.

Andrew


----------



## medic5050

*441 Questions*

Hey Slamm,

I have a 441 as well, and was just wondering how it handles the 28" running full skip, and how the 28" lite balanced compared to the 25".

I agree the 25" feels a little "off" when it comes to the feel of the whole saw.

Nice pics and vids. Really appreciate all of them.


----------



## forestryworks

Slamm said:


> Some maple going over.


 
Good thing you didn't park that 4-wheeler any closer!


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice pics and vids there Sam,i see your giving them Stihl light bars a woork at the refueling area.
> 
> I think your PM box is full.
> 
> Andrew


 
Andrew, I cleaned some more messages out. (the saw is headed toward Terry now).

As to the Lite bars, I am treating them just like the regular bars. That said, I do or did have one issue with one of them, but I don't know if it was due to handling abuse, heat or what but the aluminum panel has ripples in it, and I'm not sure how it happened. I'm going to talk with me dealer and see about it. That said it could very well, be due to the way I treat bars and if that is the case I don't fault the bar at all, as I use them as baseball bats, LOL. I'm not sure when or how it happened, I was cutting and noticed that it "slowed" down a bit, so I checked the chain, it wasn't really dull, but I sharpened it and thats when I noticed these two ripples. I did get the bar stuck in a tree and it smashed it pretty hard going over, so I don't know it that did it or what? The bars have equal cutting time and similar abuse on them and the other one is fine, so I think it was that "bad" pinch with a pretty good smash awards that rippled this bar. I'll take some photos of it. All I have to do is sand the ripples down and proceed with normal use, as the rails are straight and it tracks straight, so don't know why or how it happened.

That said .................... I can say this I will probably never cut much professionally without a 28" Lite bar on any of my saws, unless I am using a shorter bar for bucking up or something, these things are amazing. By comparison or simply "feel" its like holding only the powerhead and no bar has been mounted on it yet, most any 70cc saw it going to feel like a toy with it on, LOL. I do more over head cutting now than I ever did as a result, LOL. I'd rather cut with the 28" Lite bar than with a regular 20" bar, even if its just something little, they are that nice.

I don't know that a regular homeowner type human would ever see much benefit "financially" from the use of a Lite bar, but the "professional" or someone who has the opportunity to complete more work and get paid more as a result should really see and improvement in production from it.

As to the refueling position, the bars don't seem to mind that minor stuff, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

forestryworks said:


> Good thing you didn't park that 4-wheeler any closer!


 
LOL, it was the last tree of the day and I couldn't stop myself from cutting it, so I just jumped off and whacked it down. I was pretty safe, the tree was just bowed a little and the top just pushed it back some, as it had a couple of little elms trees to smash down on its way to the ground. I hate elm trees and do my best to provide a free "forest stand improvement service" by aiming for them. It helps me practice my placement accuracy and gets rid the tsand of worthless trees, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Got a couple of new 441R C - M-Tronics whatever you want to call them ........ a wrapped model 441 with the M-Tronics package. 




It will be about a week before, I get them modded as Terry is working on some other ones that need to be done before mine, and I have other Modded 441's to choose from. Not going to start the saws until after they are modded. Opened one of the boxes to make a Flippy Cap instructional video and take a look see, and then I left the saw on the sofa in the living room. About half hour later, Taylor my youngest, 4 years old, came into the office and said, "Daddy, I have a special suprise for you come and look." Now bear in mind, I had shown her how to take the clutch cover off and put it back on and tighten it with the provided scrench, she was also spinning the chain tensioner in and out, as she thought it was a neat toy, anyways, I went into the living room and found this:






Yep, she put her little stickers all over the clutch cover, super manly, I know, LOL. So we'll, now provide testing of sticker adhesives and material, as it relates to logging endeavors.

Here is Colton's take on the Flippy Caps:




Here is my video of some of the features of the 441R M-Tronics:






















Also ordered two more 28" Stihl Lite bars, as you can never have enough of a good thing. Going to see what I can get for the mob of regular 28" steel bars I have laying around, as I won't likely ever use them if I don't have too.

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Nice art work there Sam,thanks for the vids and pics you have done well.


----------



## banshee67

Slamm said:


> Here is Colton's take on the Flippy Caps:


 

LMAO "really, theres people out there who cant do that successfully?" LOL!!

i like the modded clutch cover as well, u better leave those stickers on too..


----------



## forestryworks

That thing looks good with a wrap handle on it. Thanks for sharing.

Wonder if the M-tronic version could suit my needs? I cut from 3,500 - 8,500'+ elevation here. Even higher if I go to NM or CO.


----------



## Slamm

forestryworks said:


> That thing looks good with a wrap handle on it. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Wonder if the M-tronic version could suit my needs? I cut from 3,500 - 8,500'+ elevation here. Even higher if I go to NM or CO.


 
I went from Illinois to Elk hunt in Colorado 10,000-12,000 feet and then back and it would have been nice if the 361 had an M-Tronics on it, LOL. Yeah, I think it would be something you would like a lot. When modded, it will spank a nicely, yet modestly modded 460, as in 38% faster, just plain put to shame a stock 460 with Muffler Modd, and the modded 441 M-Tronics wasn't even broke in yet, as in not even close, LOL. I'm switching all my saws out to the M-Tronics and already sold the Big Bore 660 for starters and sold one of the Regular Modded 441's and working on selling the rest. Its just too smart of a system to not own if you make money with a saw, additionally, the second of the two that I have will have some other tricks done to it that will likely add an additional 20% onto the already aforementioned gains in modding it.

I like efficiency, and it is the epitome of it in the wood cutting world, that I live in with 28" bars and trees from 18"-60" DBH....................... in my opinion.

Put a 28" Lite Bar on it and there just isn't anything like it, a total work of art, LOL.

All of this is my opinion, but its backed up with good research and properly spent money and an open mind for finding what works to make me more money ..... easier.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Finally, got around to taking some photos of one of the two Stihl Lite bars (28") that I have been using. After cutting with it for awhile, I noticed some weird ripples in it. No big deal I have two, so I just used the other saw for awhile. I figured the bar got hot and warped the aluminum insert or something, didn't really look at it too closely.

Well, now I have. This bar is genius and I figured out what happened, I think. The bar is hollow, as best as I can figure and is triple laminated or 2 laminates and one is milled out with ribs running down the middle. The inner core is just steel ribs and the outer sides are steel, no aluminum panels or inserts. This is genius, because the aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel, but air is obviously much lighter, than either. The Stihl Lite bar has two steel sides and nothing in the middle, where as, the other brands of Light bars use aluminum and this isn't worth a hoot for strenght in bending applications, and isn't really all that light, when compared to simply "air".

That said, I had a tree sit on the bar very hard, to the point that I just cut the hinge and let them fall over backwards, in the process of that the bar's hollow area, had some insane pressure on it and that pushed the sides inward. As a result the ripples are pushed inward on both sides in the same places, there isn't any "thickening" of the bar, it only got thinner in the middle, as a result of the high amount of pressure, I never noticed any difference in its cutting speed or use. Upon further inspection I found that around the S in Stihl on one of the sides it was slightly bent, I put it in the vise and straightened it.

For the record, this bar and the other Stihl Lite bar have 92,000 bdft racked up between the two of them and they both look great. I have dressed the edges once, and flipped them once, I have ordered 2 more, and will do my level best to not have to use regular full weight steel bars in the future.























Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks for that report Sam i was talking to my Stihl dealer about these light bars and he tells me you can get a 25'' one in Ozz i was told the shortest one was 28'' anyway there ya go.


----------



## young

Stihlman441 said:


> Thanks for that report Sam i was talking to my Stihl dealer about these light bars and he tells me you can get a 25'' one in Ozz i was told the shortest one was 28'' anyway there ya go.


 
currently they only come in 28, 32, 36 in both .050 and .063.

i really like my 28 on the 460.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Thanks for that report Sam i was talking to my Stihl dealer about these light bars and he tells me you can get a 25'' one in Ozz i was told the shortest one was 28'' anyway there ya go.


 
Huh, as stated above, I'm pretty sure the only ones we can get are 28" and up.

I know this, I'd rather run a 28" Lite bar than a 20" regular, I don't know what the true weight is of each, but from feel alone that longer Lite bar is "lighter" and easier to manage and handier than a 441 with a 20" regular bar. Due to expense and using more chain, and possibility of hitting dirt a little more without holding the saw up, I'm not yet convinced to use it on the bucking-up saws, as I use 28" for felling and 20" for bucking up, I am contemplating it, LOL.

I like them so much, that I just got back several, normal weight rebuilt 28" bars (GB's and Stihl's) from Chainbar.com and I'm seriously just going to sell them, because I don't want them, as they don't represent the optimum tool that I could be using, where as, right now, that Lite bar does, by a long, long shot. At this point, the only CON, I can find with the bars is the expense, and if a person is in the position to make money with them, they will make you more of it. I can't remember what I can get a 28" ES for something like sub-$50 or something, where as, the Lite 28" is around $110 so at double the cost, I know I cut better and faster and with more enjoyment with those Lites bars, and like I said before I just have two and they dropped all and even bucked up a lot of it on this latest job and we're at 92,000 BDFT. The paint still looks great and I've only flipped them each once and deburred the rails once, thats it. John and I "think" the rails are harder, without my Rockwell tester I can't prove that, but the rails sure seem to hold up very well.

Have a good day, down there,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

I have some part numbers at home and i think the 28'' was about $168,will try and find them and i did say to him that as far as i know they only come in 28''32'' and 36'' but he thinks 25'' as well.
I was thinking of a 28'' for felling are they nose heavey on the 441s ?.
You use skip semi chisel chain and a 7 pin i assume.
Andrew


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> I have some part numbers at home and i think the 28'' was about $168,will try and find them and i did say to him that as far as i know they only come in 28''32'' and 36'' but he thinks 25'' as well.
> I was thinking of a 28'' for felling are they nose heavey on the 441s ?.
> You use skip semi chisel chain and a 7 pin i assume.
> Andrew


 
Yeah, they are nose heavy, but I'm use to it, I guess, never bothered me. I like that I can take a regular 28" 441 and stick it bar down on a log and it will stay, the short bars or this Lite bar, no way, they fall over on the powerhead side, LOL joking, I don't miss the weight at all.

Yes, I use "skip semi chisel chain and a 7 pin" on everything, modded 084 on down, just have never seen a noticeable speed difference in work conditions to justify a different setup or multiple setups. 

Using 8 pins does spin the chain faster until that is offset by the RPM's go down due to loss of torque so that is a "win for cutting air" and a "lose for cutting wood", LOL.

Full Comp is a pain to sharpen and is maybe only 1 second faster in ideal cookie cutting, as per my youtube research. I think in work conditions, the full skip is faster more times than not due to you almost never stall out the saw, which means you have to restart it again, or in a felling cut you can't get the chain restarted after you stop it due to chip load and bite. So to me Zero work related benefits to running Full Comp over Semi-Chisel in either soft or hardwoods.

I hate Chisel chain with a passion, there is almost no aspect of it that I find is a PRO or benefit in normal, working conditions. Its only faster in clean cookie cutting, step into the world of firewood and logging with normally modest to really dirty wood and say bye bye to whatever 2 seconds that it was faster than semi-chisel in the cookie cutting. Also in our hardwood and likely yours, you just rip the sharp corners off, before the rest of the cutters gets dull, so you end up filing away half of the life of the chain due to simply "chip-outs" and not that it was dull from normal wood cutting. I have said it before, I admit that its an exaggeration, but I feel I get double the life out of a Stihl Semi-Chisel chain or said in a different way a Semi-Chisel will cut double the wood in its lifetime, before the teeth are completely filed off, than you will from Chisel chain.

My findings on it,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Mmm interesting what you say there Sam.
I normally use Carlton (heaps cheaper than Stihl) full chisel on standing green Sugar gum which is nice and soft (for us anyway) with 20'' and 25'' and 8 pins on 460 and 660s.I do use semi chisel skip on 36'' bars in dry hard woods eg Redgum and even then dont last very long.But ya cant get Carlton skip here any longer and you could never get Stihl skip anyway,so i have a 100 foot roll and then thats it.
When im felling and blocking the clean green Sugar gum the full chisel will last about 3 tanks before a light tuchup is needed and thats a few mtrs of fire wood sorted out.I have worked out roughly a tank of fuel in the 460 is about 1 mtrs of blocked up wood.
I use 8 pin rims on both 460 with a 20'' and 660 with 25'' and full comp chisel chains in the green gum because these two says have the torque and balls to do this no probs.

Cheers


----------



## deye223

Stihlman441 said:


> Mmm interesting what you say there Sam.
> I normally use Carlton (heaps cheaper than Stihl) full chisel on standing green Sugar gum which is nice and soft (for us anyway) with 20'' and 25'' and 8 pins on 460 and 660s.I do use semi chisel skip on 36'' bars in dry hard woods eg Redgum and even then dont last very long.But ya cant get Carlton skip here any longer and you could never get Stihl skip anyway,so i have a 100 foot roll and then thats it.
> When im felling and blocking the clean green Sugar gum the full chisel will last about 3 tanks before a light tuchup is needed and thats a few mtrs of fire wood sorted out.I have worked out roughly a tank of fuel in the 460 is about 1 mtrs of blocked up wood.
> I use 8 pin rims on both 460 with a 20'' and 660 with 25'' and full comp chisel chains in the green gum because these two says have the torque and balls to do this no probs.
> 
> Cheers


 
hey andrew never had trouble geting stihl skip over here can't use anything else stringy is coverd in sand all the soil here is gray sand it's a bugger:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## RiverRat2

Stihlman441 said:


> Thanks for that report Sam i was talking to my Stihl dealer about these light bars and he tells me you can get a 25'' one in Ozz i was told the shortest one was 28'' anyway there ya go.



My Shop just called I ordered a 28" light one Monday and I will pick it up tomorrow!!!!


----------



## Slamm

If there is anything that a person can say you will love and know its the truth, its that Lite bar. 

When you put it on a 70cc saw its like there isn't even a bar on it, it will feel like you have a toy in your hands, that is no exageration. I haven't put it on a 660 yet, but I bet that would be super nice. I had a new clutch put on my 660 and should get it back this weekend, I want to cut for a day or so and see how that feels. I know you will really like it.

Sam


----------



## s219

This is an epic thread. Thanks for taking the time to photograph and narrate everything Sam -- I know that takes some effort, but it shows how much you enjoy the work. Well done all the way. I'd work with you any day.


----------



## 056 kid

Slamm said:


> If there is anything that a person can say you will love and know its the truth, its that Lite bar.
> 
> When you put it on a 70cc saw its like there isn't even a bar on it, it will feel like you have a toy in your hands, that is no exageration. I haven't put it on a 660 yet, but I bet that would be super nice. I had a new clutch put on my 660 and should get it back this weekend, I want to cut for a day or so and see how that feels. I know you will really like it.
> 
> Sam


 
You do custom fab work on equipment, yet you have someone else put a clutch on a saw for you? That is strange there.


----------



## Metals406

056 kid said:


> You do custom fab work on equipment, yet you have someone else put a clutch on a saw for you? That is strange there.


 
He probably don't have time, and it sure don't make him money. A lot of guys don't wrench their own saws. . . Don't mean they can't.


----------



## 056 kid

That's BS. swapping a clutch takes minutes. Last time I checked, a working saw does indeed make one money. .


----------



## Stihlman441

deye223 said:


> hey andrew never had trouble geting stihl skip over here can't use anything else stringy is coverd in sand all the soil here is gray sand it's a bugger:msp_thumbsup:[/QUO
> 
> So when ya say ya can get skip ? what are you using,where do ya get it and how much ?.


----------



## Slamm

056,
My god, you are an incensant little quirp. We were having problems getting a clutch that will hold it. This is why it got sent to Terry. The freaking crankshaft is brown and blue, that indicates a problem that I don't want to deal with, is that fine with you???? I will ask nicely, would you please remove your head from your rearend, and not post in this thread anymore, you provide very, very little by way of intelligence and that is before you start drinking, after that it really goes to heck.











By the way, I took the clutch off all by myself in these photos.

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

I'm not mad slamm. You might be cross, but not me. 


 see, happy! though I might be mad if I had to use my 660 to mine for coal. .


----------



## NORMZILLA44

Well said kid:msp_thumbup:


----------



## Slamm

Ah, good, its nice to see the troll has a buddy.

Sam


----------



## Metals406

056 kid said:


> That's BS. swapping a clutch takes minutes. Last time I checked, a working saw does indeed make one money. .


 
Ted, he owns two businesses and has a family. . . YOU get all that too, then talk to me about time.


----------



## 056 kid

I really do not care. in fact, I don't give a ####. . . 

:biggrin: how bout them apples


----------



## NORMZILLA44

Oh kid why do we bother, old slambo, can't take the slightest criticsm, or anything really. Get's his hackle's up real easy. Must be rodeo flasback's.


----------



## banshee67

056 kid said:


> I really do not care. in fact, I don't give a ####. . .
> 
> :biggrin: how bout them apples


 
the only person you are fooling with that statement is yourself...

youve been up this guys ass about HIS company since the beginning of this thread, clearly you give many sh!ts about it,


----------



## stihl 440

Slamm said:


> 056,
> My god, you are an incensant little quirp. We were having problems getting a clutch that will hold it. This is why it got sent to Terry. The freaking crankshaft is brown and blue, that indicates a problem that I don't want to deal with, is that fine with you???? I will ask nicely, would you please remove your head from your rearend, and not post in this thread anymore, you provide very, very little by way of intelligence and that is before you start drinking, after that it really goes to heck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I took the clutch off all by myself in these photos.
> 
> Sam


 
Your oiler is toast...cluch clips break and whirl around in there for a little bit?...they must have...and created a hole in the oil pump in the top right hand corner of the pump itself like you have right there.


----------



## Slamm

stihl 440 said:


> Your oiler is toast...cluch clips break and whirl around in there for a little bit?...they must have...and created a hole in the oil pump in the top right hand corner of the pump itself like you have right there.


 
Yes, this happened like 7 months ago, several things were fixed don't know what they were. The saw has been at Terry's since then, because I haven't needed it and didn't want it and I have recently asked for it back so I can do somemore testing and because I do really love that saw, so I'm getting it back. It was completed about 1 week after it was sent up there, thank you, Terry, at Sawzilla.

The deal about the clutch was just giving a reason as to why I can't test the 28" bar on a 660 right now ....... because I don't have one with me. This saw slips a stock clutch, we're going to try another one and keep track of it or monitor it, if it slips this clutch also, we are going to modify the clutch to handle it, then it should be fine.

But junior, detective troll who thinks he knows how to run my business, better than me, based off of a few photos and zero experience in my area, market, customer base or conditions, thinks hes got one over on me because I've got better things to do then waste my time fixing the cheapest items in my line of work. Plus Terry and I, wanted him to document whatever it is that he did to that saw, because it makes insane power, yet still just has normal compression, as in he can get a lot more out of it, and we didn't want to crush it or something and not have documentation of how it was ported. So Terry wanted it back too, so he could go over it again, since about 6 of us that have used many 660's stock and modded, think it is the best one we have used.

It just is what it is,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Ha Sam when ya say modify the clutch what do ya mean ?.
Thats the thing you have a modded ported saw you tend to sharpen and set up ya chain more agressively and something has to suffer and one of them is the clutch.


----------



## Slamm

We have not modded the clutch at this time, this saw will likely be a novelty for me to run and I know how to operate it to keep it within the holding abilities of a stock clutch. The breakage happened when one of the least skilled cutters was given this saw to use, as the more experienced cutters new better to just use the Modded 441's, LOL. Anyways, the clutch had seen some abuse up to the point of that day, but it was run hard that day, by someone who didn't know that just because the motor is free reving doesn't mean the chain is completely locked up and it did the aforementioned and photo'd damage.

I personally had this saw, slipping its clutch at the end of the first day with a 28" bar on it, cutting around a bunch of 50"+ Pin Oaks along the Ohio River. I have never had a saw due that, but you could start to get hamfisted with the thing and the chain would either slow down or stop, while the motor started to take off with the RPM's. Needless to say, after that usually either Bert or I was the only one that used it, and you had to cut to the holding power of the clutch not to the stalling of the engine.

We're going to try a new clutch and see how it goes again, if it doesn't work, and after I refresh my memory with the pro's and con's of running a modded 660 against the modded 441's, we'll adjust the clutch as needed, if needed.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Here is some of the landing from today, haven't been working much lately, just got back to it Monday, Tuesday and Today.





Filled the landing at about 2:30pm today, then it started pouring rain, but I have everything I cut out of the woods.





I was skidding with the modded 260 on the back of the skidder to top or limb trees that got skipped or missed. I was bored and decided to drop this ash with it for the giggles of it, as it was left for some reason. Always make sure you have enough saw, LOL. I think it cuts pretty good. 3/8" Full Skip Semi-chisel on a 20" bar. Probably could have got it down quicker if I used both hands, but didn't have an extra hand for the stop watch, as my left hand was running the camera and my left foot was pushing brush out of the way. I don't think that this is a good video for teaching the proper way of dropping trees, LOL.




Topping a different tree with the Modded 260.







Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Good work there Sam,i like the one hand on each felling nice.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Good work there Sam,i like the one hand on each felling nice.


 
LOL, I need to get a little tripod for the camera. They don't weigh very much and some are small. I'm tired of trying to find a branch or stump to balance the camera on target.

Sam


----------



## Bret4207

I don't normally have the patience to get past page one of any thread. I made it to pg 6 and intend to come back! Great thread Sam, I'm going to take a look at that winch rope. I'm more of a horse logger but I have a small winch for the tractors and small dozer that 3 pt mounted and the D4 needs a line too.

Very nice to see I'm no the only guy that cuts then off at ground level if I can.


----------



## Slamm

Bret4207 said:


> I don't normally have the patience to get past page one of any thread. I made it to pg 6 and intend to come back! Great thread Sam, I'm going to take a look at that winch rope. I'm more of a horse logger but I have a small winch for the tractors and small dozer that 3 pt mounted and the D4 needs a line too.
> 
> Very nice to see I'm no the only guy that cuts then off at ground level if I can.


 
Thanks, I have found the Amsteel to be very helpful and profitable over the long haul.

As to the stump height, as owner and operator of the skidders, plus I also cut, I can't stand driving around stumps that are cut high, when if they aren't rotten should have been much lower, which increases footage and isn't any harder to do. I take a knee and rest while I'm cutting low stumps a lot of times. High stumps are hard on skidders and slow you down big time when you have to go around them or ram the stump into your axles and belly pans and/or risk log breakage because you went around one and then bound up the skidded logs on it and lock the machine up or break/damage the logs.

Plus it just looks bad.

Sam


----------



## Bret4207

I've only made it to page 10 now, but I don't see any rock in the pics so far. That's one things we have lots of is rock. It' not unusual to start cutting into some big old hard maple and hit a hunk of ledge up in the middle of it. That's when I cut high stumps!


----------



## Slamm

After working on another project I had a few hours to go cut and made a few videos of it. Don't bother with whining about the first few, as I had a bar that was trued up and gone over by a company, only to have the sprocket go out on me within about the first 3-5 trees, if you look close you can see the smoke every now and then. So I had to stop and ride 1/2 back out to landing and swap bars and then talked to the trucker. I left two, new Lite Bars back down in Kentucky, and my first two need the bar rails closed, but I don't have a rail closer that will budge a Stihl rail, got one from Bailey's and stripped the threads trying to get it to close Stihl ES rails. It will close Oregon and GB's, but I haven't had any luck with the Stihl bars on this, might be operator error, LOL. If I can't find another heavier one, I'll just make one.

I'll try to narrate the videos some, but I gotta get out and start cutting this afternoon, so don't have too much time. Trucks are coming tomorrow morning to get piles of logs.

The videos are all in order of when they were taken, and for what its worth, this is my disclaimer, for or those that know better than to do some of the dumb things that I do, don't be a dumb nut and spout off at the keyboard. Everyone already knows you are better than me, I'm just making some videos. These are not training videos, if you don't know better than to do some of the dumb things that I do, then don't watch them, certainly don't take anything away from them in the form of higher learning, as always, I video the good and bad of what happens, and post both.

Note the smoking sprocket tip, at that point it was a sprocket tipped bar, acting like a hardnose.




Here I cut two trees down, but hung the second one up on a little tree, failure, LOL.




Here is just a basic drop of an average ash for this timber (Different Bar).




Here is where I start to get into some better trees, farther back on the property. This is two soft maples.




This video is just showing some of the pattern that I'm cutting. It shows the last two video'd maples and their location and then some others that I cut after them. I'm trying to work a pattern that doesn't top myself in, while keeping the skidders in mind and how they will get to them and clean up the mess. Also there is a tree stand to the left of this video that I obviously can't hit and it provided some issue as several of the trees wanted to go towards it.




This is that bigger maple that wanted to fall on the ATV and me in the last video. I finally had made some space for it to drop. You might can tell in the other video it is leaning very hard with all branches on the lean side, so a lot of weight to deal with in one direction.




This is just an explaination of how/why I cut that last larger maple the way I did. I don't know all of the fancy terms for certain cuts, I just cut them, and have found this works.




Just a basic cut.




Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Here are four videos of me just bucking up logs. Not very exciting, you could just pour a can of paint in the yard and go watch it dry. I can't get one video of a bunch of logs getting cut. If it ever uploads, I'll post it.










Sam


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## Metals406

That saw spools down like a dang 2-stroke dirt bike.

Thanks for taking the time to make all these videos Sam!


----------



## Stihlman441

Nice work there Sam with the vids and thanks for sharing,is that the 441 you pulled apart the other day,the idle low end dint sound real good.So what do those logs end up as,house building lumber,chips ?.
Cheers


----------



## Slamm

Read nothing into the idle of this saw. It is modded and has a minor issue with the idle, I/we have known about for sometime, when the weather gets cooler, it idles high or wierd and there is only one fix for it, and I know what it is, just haven't done it yet. It was fixed on the other similiarly modded 441's and they have no issue. This saw is tuned about good as can be, it just does that.

Andrew, no it isn't the one I have torn down, will probably get that one back together this weekend. I needed some Yamabond and didn't have time to get any, until yesterday. No damage was found, but sure learned a lot about the Modded 441's in the process.

Karen, showed up and saved the day or weekend ......................... she brought me two new shiny 28" Lite Bars. In those videos, I'm using old ES bars that I had Chainbar.com rebuild or true up. I'm not ashamed to say that I don't really want to fell trees, if I don't have the Lite Bars, LOL. I swear they came straight from heaven, LOL.

As for a product review. Here is where I stand on the Lite Bars, they are awesome. In using my first two, on two different Modded 441's and a Modded 660, I dropped around 100,000 bdft. In that period, I had to file one minor burr on both bars top and bottom. I flipped them and treated them just like any other bar, or probably abused them more because I can swing them harder when whacking brush and vines out of the way. In this period I used 2 chains and they are getting low on life, as in the drivers are getting a little narrow, but the cutters still have enough life. On Monday of this week, at pretty much the same time, both Older Lite bars could not provide good service due to the fact that the rails were worn out to the point of needing to be narrowed and would just stall out in the cut. I could have put a new chain on them and kept going, but they really need to have the rails narrowed. Hence the switch to the heavier ES bars, because like a moron, I left my Lite bars in Kentucky.

One person has commented on that seemed a little early, but I don't think so, and we must remember that I'm cutting in a creek bottom that floods once or twice a year. There is silt behind the bark of every tree I cut here, as high as 4 feet up the stump, so every stump cut has dirt in it. I don't think the rails are soft because very little was presented when they get the burrs on the side up by the sprocket tip, actually less of a burr than any bar I have used. Without a Rockwell Tester, I can't prove it, but I feel the Lite bars are actually a little harder than the ES bars, they certainly aren't softer.

I am happy with the life, but I honestly think the problem if there is a problem is lack of oil flow. I have the higher output oilers on both of those modded 441's, but they only drink 2/3 of a tank of oil at the most, which might be enough during normal, clean cutting with a 28" bar, but not enough to flush out the dirt I'm getting into on basically every cut. Need to perform that simple/cheap oiler modd and see if I can get more oil to them and get it down to one tank of oil per tank of gas.

Another issue, has anyone used the Woodman Pro or Silvey rail closers to close Stihl ES bars or Lite Bar rails. I have used the Woodsman Pro rail closer with easy success on Oregan and GB bars without issue, but I can't get it to close the Stihl rails, they just spring back open, if they ever moved to begin with. I'm at the point where I have stripped out the "closer's" adjustment screw and have to get a new one, and I use all Stihl bars at this point, so I need a rail closer that will actually work on them. So far my research has netted nothing by way of beefer models. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Sam


----------



## rwoods

Sam, keep the videos coming. I don't have time to watch them all right now but have watched the first half. I understand your disclaimers; nevertheless, the first video is a good example to show newbies why you shouldn't hang out at the tree to watch it fall. Ron


----------



## deye223

Slamm said:


> Another issue, has anyone used the Woodman Pro or Silvey rail closers to close Stihl ES bars or Lite Bar rails. I have used the Woodsman Pro rail closer with easy success on Oregan and GB bars without issue, but I can't get it to close the Stihl rails, they just spring back open, if they ever moved to begin with. I'm at the point where I have stripped out the "closer's" adjustment screw and have to get a new one, and I use all Stihl bars at this point, so I need a rail closer that will actually work on them. So far my research has netted nothing by way of beefer models. Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sam


 
i was gunna say you could use chain with thicker DL if you use 50G DL but i figure you would have thought of that cheers


----------



## Slamm

rwoods said:


> Sam, keep the videos coming. I don't have time to watch them all right now but have watched the first half. I understand your disclaimers; nevertheless, the first video is a good example to show newbies why you shouldn't hang out at the tree to watch it fall. Ron


 
LOL, quite true, and excellent example.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

deye223 said:


> i was gunna say you could use chain with thicker DL if you use 50G DL but i figure you would have thought of that cheers


 
Yes, I have done that before, but no I only have semi-chisel, full skip in .050 gauge and don't have any .063. I would like to narrow the rails once or twice before having to go to .063. With these more expensive bars, I want to get everything out of them for obvious reasons. The ES's I get for very cheap, so I have just been storing the "used up" ones and buying new ones to replace ................. now I don't even want to use them except for firewood cutting or something that doesn't involve me making money off of it. I really feel these Stihl Lite bars are money makers. In the past and recently I have sent the bars out to get repaired, and I'm not really excited about doing that anymore. When the only reason I have ever sent them out was I can't get the Stihl rails to close with my skills or lack of and my equipment.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Sam, can you fab a heavy duty closer at your shop?


----------



## forestryworks

Stihl rails are pretty hard. Their chain is hard, too.


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> Sam, can you fab a heavy duty closer at your shop?


 
Yes, Metal, thats what I envision is going to happen if someone doesn't step up and offer a solution. I made several really nice Stainless Steel Case Splitters a few years ago, I think there are parts of them still laying around the shop. I have to find them, they were tig welded and all, pretty nice, I'm going to make a rail closer with about a 1/2" fine thread adjustment/pressure screw, instead of that little bitty one on the store models.

Karen and I ran a stock and Muffler Modded MTronics today and wow, they are really nice. You have to get one and try it. Don't waste your time with them if you aren't at least going to MModd them.

Later,

Sam


----------



## 7oaks

Thanks for the vids. Enjoyed watching them!


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks Sam for your time and effort in telling us your experiences and finds with saw products,there is not many people with real world work knowledge that tells us whats going on.:smile2:


----------



## wyk

*Stihl es Lite*

Check it out, bud:

28" ES Light bar






24" Oregon power match:






32" Oregon Lightweight bar:


----------



## Slamm

wyk said:


> Check it out, bud:
> 
> 28" ES Light bar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 24" Oregon power match:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 32" Oregon Lightweight bar:


 

I know, isn't that fantastic. I told my dealer (3hrs away) that I was about to drive home and get them because I hated to cut without them, LOL. I weighed a 28" Stihl LITE bar at the Post Office still in the box and it was 3lb1oz. how great is that. And they are tough too. I hear about the Oregon Bars bending and whatnot, yet, I leave mine sticking in/out of trees and I fuel them up with the bars stuck part way out of my ATV rack and no harm. They are definately a HOME RUN in my book. Its like holding the powerhead only, with no bar on it.

I need to get one of those scales.

Thanks,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Well we played yesterday, don't really want to call it work, because it was the least productive day of logging, I've probably had, but family was involved and we had fun. I'll start it off with pics of the new saw. I've had two of these for weeks and never tried them yet and today seemed like a good day. Even got a female reviewer, LOL.

441 CM M-Tronics with a fresh 28" Stihl Lite Bar and Full Skip Semi-Chisel Stihl chain 3/8" .050


----------



## medic5050

O.K., where did you come across the duel port muffler for the 441? I have a 441 that could use one. Do they make a noticeable difference even without porting or other work?


----------



## Slamm

We cut a little wood.




Please don't mind the Hobo attire that Sammy (my little girl) has on, she was more worried about keeping warm than looking good, LOL. She ran the loader and carried knots and branches to the trash pile, basically to get them out of the way for a smooth landing for the truckers and the loader. Karen is running the loader now, stacking logs. We only have two piles at this job. Blocking logs and Grade Ash, that is it, as it is mostly a low quality, high quantity sort of timber.




Give Karen a set of radio headphones and she'll run the loader.




Give her a 441 MTronic and she'll start it and cut off spurs for you too, how nice, LOL.




Looking better




Then we found bees and honey. I was cutting an ash log and smelled something different than mix gas being burned, LOL.




Here is where I cut through.




Here we are eating it, dead bugs and sawdust added to the protien and carb count, LOL.


----------



## Slamm

medic5050 said:


> O.K., where did you come across the duel port muffler for the 441? I have a 441 that could use one. Do they make a noticeable difference even without porting or other work?


 
LOL, I have a few, look at my signature. I have now cut 1 tree down with a stock 441 and made about 8-10 bucking cuts with one, I just don't like stock saws. At a bare minimum the muffler has to be swapped out, LOL.

You have to make your own, don't think you can buy one. This style has served me well. I like how another guy, cut a slot across the bottom of his. I might try that sometime. Other MTronics owners have gutted out the stock hole location, but remember to get inside and get the deflector thing inside cut out too.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

More Honey. The bees are in the section with the plastic bag plugging them in. I left a little hole for them to go in and out of. I would like to get them back home, in Kentucky, there is some kinda "Honey Club" and I will have to ask them how to go about starting me a bee hive.


----------



## s219

Neat -- I bet that was a pretty cool experience for your daughter. Not everyday you come across a hive of wild bees and honey like that. Of course, my immediate thought was about the saw -- wonder what it looks like under the clutch cover. Honey, bar oil, and wood chips must make a nice combo...


----------



## Metals406

Scoring wild honey= WIN!


----------



## Slamm

Metals, we got a over a pint of honey out of one less than the combs that you see in the photos, and it is the best tasting honey we have ever eaten. The viscocity is low though, almost like a 10w, never had honey like that, it runs everywhere like water. I cleaned up my firewood around them. They aren't mean, nobody's been stung by one yet and we are molesting them quite badly. Several times I sprayed them with saw chips, for forgiving.





Forgot this photo. This is Sammy running the loader. She is learning the difference between blocking caliber of wood and the grade ash logs we have to separate. Like a true logger she was caught trying to slip a good looking elm log into the grade pile, LOL. I told her she was going to ruin the family name with such dishonesty, LOL. I had my neighbor get me some 5 ft. forks for the loader, man I like those a lot, can pick up one more of the small logs and can also flip the logs higher and farther with them.





Here is one of the new HD2 Filters, it came off of the painted 441, not sure how much run time is on it its in the days area. They are sure better and easier to clean. The prefilter wrap is a Stihl, but I got some new prefilter wraps from Outerwears.com, the jury is still out on them. I'm not real please about how they are put together, but the material is spot on and very slick. I put one on the 441 Mtronics, I'll check it tomorrow, but the HD2's are thumbs up. Seems the dust/wood doesn't stick to them as easy, they clean up much easier.

























Sam


----------



## Metals406

If you want that hive back home on your property, get a hold of an apiary in your area. Them folks might even set you up with an artificial hive? But for sure, they'd be able to give you good advice on honey production and hive protection.

Here's some interesting reading, and it looks like you could even keep your bees in the log. 

Beehive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> If you want that hive back home on your property, get a hold of an apiary in your area. Them folks might even set you up with an artificial hive? But for sure, they'd be able to give you good advice on honey production and hive protection.
> 
> Here's some interesting reading, and it looks like you could even keep your bees in the log.
> 
> Beehive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
Thanks Metals,

I do want to keep them, I have found many hives especially last year, probably 10, I knew I didn't have time for them so I was at least nice enough to cut the section out of the tree and stand it back up again. But I want some bee hives for at home or here on the Illinois farm.

Karen found a "Bee Club" that meets on the first Thursday of the month down in Kentucky so she or I or both will need to go to that. She was traveling in the mini van and we didn't think it was prudent to send her back to Kentucky with a van full of bees, so they will have to stay until I drive the truck back down. I'll duct tape them in and tape some ash cookies top and bottom. I checked them this evening when it was cool and they went back inside. This afternoon it was warmer and they were out working gathering the honey that we spilled from the saw cut combs. We have been eating the honey in tea, cereal, bread, biscuits and spoon fulls. It is the best we have had, bug guts and dirt and saw chips and all, LOL.

I'm going to eat a bunch before cutting tomorrow for energy, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Metals406

I love honey! It's the only food on the planet that never goes bad, it's super good for you (as far as a sugar goes), and it's extremely versatile.

I got a gallon from my folks, as they live on the east side, and have a hookup for it. Good sage honey, it's tasty!


----------



## s219

Honey is great stuff. I have been told it has antiseptic/antibacterial/antibiotic properties, and can be put on cuts, wounds, and such (replacement for an ointment like neosporin). Haven't tried it myself.


----------



## Slamm

Here is the 441 Mtronic's air filter after 10 tanks. I bought several pre-wrap filter covers from Outerwears.com. I like the material, but they need to work on the elastic that they use, as it is a pain in the butt to get it onto the filter. You have to experience it to understand. I will or would use them over the Stihl OEM pre filter from now on, as nothing will stick to them.

Of course the filter is the new HD2. Again notice that the baffle doesn't have the stud on it anymore like the older 441's use to have. Before the air filter nut was truly a nut, now it is a wing'd screw. This makes getting the filter on and off a little easier.






The fines you see in there just blew in when I flipped the saw up to get a better look, and the filter wasn't dirty, so I just put it back on and will run it some more.





Popped the chain off and the sprocket decided to eat the drivers on a good chain so I had to replace this small section.





This chain now has cut 58+trees, some cookies and a little firewood. I have sharpened it 1.5 file strokes per tooth and haven't touched the rakers yet. If I cut today I will likely give it a couple of file strokes, but this Stihl Semi-Chisel lasts a good while. Every tree I cut has silt on the bark, as the water gets upwards of 4 feet deep every year in this bottoms. Chisel chain would not last this long at all.

Knocked off early to ride horses with my little girl.




Pic of one of my bulldog pups thats 8 years old.





Some tree that the 441 Mtronic cut.





I'm waiting on the videos to upload as I photo'd or video's every tree I cut with the 441 Mtronic that evening, it was about 20 trees. Still have about 3 videos to go.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Good stuff Sam,:cool2:aweigh ting for more.


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## Slamm

I video'd the 441 MTronic's first few trees down. At this point it had a few tanks of gas through it, either cutting some cookies or firewood to break it in and get a feel for it, before I do something a little more thrilling with it. It only has a modded Muffler that I took off of one of my other 441's. These photos and video's were taken a couple of days ago and took forever to upload, but at this point it has cut down 80ish trees, as I started to skid them out this afternoon. The video's and pics are taken in order from first to last, its every tree I cut that evening with it good or bad. Don't take much away from it by way of technique or safety.

If you watch all of them, I hope it kinda shows some of the different things that go on when you are cutting, good or bad, that just happen. I don't have the limbing in these as that is just too hard to and usually boring to video without help, and I hope you have high speed internet if you want to watch them all.


Here is this 441 MTronic's first tree down for the count. #1









Here is a leaner, we have a lot of them. This one didn't go so good, the roots pulled up in the back, provided some excitment #2


----------



## Slamm

Here is some simple Hackberry. #3





Here is a nice soft maple that wants to come towards me and the right a little, I need it to go straight to the right to crush some tops. I should have cut out those branches before hand, but figured I could get out of there without any undo damage. #4








Here is some box elder, they are about worthless, but they are footage that pays the same and easy to cut. #5





Here is a hard leaning box elder, that goes over pretty easy. #6




This ash looked more like a corkscrew and didn't go where it should have, but still fell in a good spot.#7








This is something that shouldn't be done, but happens from time to time. the worst one I did was 5 hung up in the 6th tree. Experience fighting bulls is good for situations like this, LOL. #8


----------



## Slamm

This is an honest maple that is leaning in the correct location, but it hits another trees and provides a handy "widow maker". #9




This is just some hard, ole, shag, bark hickory. #10





Here is a nice pin oak that needed to be angled just a little to the right. I dropped it right over the last Hickory to keep it out of the food plot area. #11




Just some easy ash that went over. #12





This is some Box Elder, remember this stump, because I called the hit on the next one. Sometimes, I get lucky, LOL. #13





Here is an Elm that wants to go more toward the left and I need it to go to the right and I call the hit on that last Box Elder stump. #14



Here is the top on the Box Elder Stump.





Here is a little Hackberry that I didn't put a face or notch in it, just cut. #15


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## Slamm

Here is another Hackberry that is leaning on a Soft Maple (I have seen this several times) where the hackberry is leaning on a soft maple, I don't know if it is love or they just like each other, but it happens with some regularity. The Hackberry is rotten of course and the soft maple was salvaged today. #16 & #17




Here I probably should have moved the ATV, but the tree was pretty honest, and I'm lazy. #18




This is another maple that just needed to go over, the butt was rotten. #19




At this point it was getting too dark for video. So I had to just take photos. #20





Another one. #21





Wouldn't make too much money if this was all we cut. #22





Here is the last one of the night at this point. Just a big nice maple. At this point it was black dark, I was cutting using only my 6th sense and smell, LOL. #23





And that is it for the evening.

Hope you have high, high speed internet.

Sam


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## Metals406

Thanks for the vids Sam!


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## Stihlman441

Good stuff there Sam thanks for the vids,i see your smilie cuts are small is there a reason for that,suppose less wasted timber ?.


----------



## Stihlman441

When you changed to the dual port muff on the 441C do you think it made any differance to the rich,lean running of the saw,it sounds very familiar to me.I have been using thoses pre-filters as well and they do help out on the HD2 filters.


----------



## Slamm

Andrew,

I only made a few cuts with the stock muffler, maybe, 10, but when I put the modded muffler on it, instantly throttle response (spool up time) was much faster, my little girl even new that, as she was videoing and she said "It sounds faster.", LOL.

I cookie cut with it, but didn't use big enough wood and the saw wasn't broken in so I probably won't post those videos, as it will cause a ruckus around here with no justification for it. My SS muffler doesn't even have any color marks on it as it didn't get used hard enough to get hot, before I changed it.

As to the small smilie (face cuts), I don't see the point in wasting that time on making them bigger if the tree had enough lean or weight to one side all you need is enough hing to not pinch your bar or give it a little direction, anymore and its just a waste of time, as a cutter is just double cutting the same wood for obviously zero gain of anything. Additionally, if for some reason I do split a tree which I have maybe done that 5 times in my life, and I can only really think of 3, I only slab some off the side, I don't really barber chair one down the middle and more or less ruin the whole log, slabbing the side is a minor loss of board footage and produces a wimpy barber chair, but if you cut a deep notch, you can barberchair things really bad and possibly lose your head/life over it, and the whole butt log is ruined.

Additionally, if you make a shallow hinge, like I do, if the tree is hollow, which in the flood damaged stuff it is, you are sure to be hingeing in solid wood not just the corners of a deep notch, so to me its a lot safer, too. I do deep notch them if I really, really need it to go in another direction and its straight enough up that I can use a little of the tree's trunk weight to help move it, but for the most part I can get them to go where I need them to go without a lot of fancy worded cuts, LOL.

Also, the shallow hinge will typically if not always being in better, stronger wood, it gives your hinge a lot more leverage or strength to hold the tree, if it wants to go the other way and you are going to push it over with a skidder, another tree or wedge it over (but it takes more wedges or you have to wedge from the side to get closer to the hinge for angle). Like in the below video I do a double and the 2nd tree is really leaning towards me, so here I want a shallow hinge to give the heavy leaner more strength to keep it from falling on me or breaking the hinge before its properly guided by the first tree.




I do have to adjust the top angle of the notch for the ash trees as they will blow up or slab if you don't give them enough angle to close before going over, but you can really cheat pin oak, soft maple and red oak ....................... Hickory, white oak and ash need more angle, closer to 90 degrees before they won't split or tear out on you.


Hope that makes sense, if I could draw pictures, I could explain it better, maybe I just say it in a video after I'm looking at a shallow hinged stump, because then it would make more sense as to why they are stronger from a leverage point of view. I think its obvious why they are stronger if there is hollow or rot to be dealt with, but a lot of people, even most loggers don't understand why its stronger from a leverage point of view, on some smaller diametered trees close to double the strength depending on how deep they hinge, but it might be more as I don't think the effect is linear, but more involute in nature.

Later,

Sam


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## Stihlman441

Thanks for explaining that and nice double there mate.


----------



## Pointman

Sam my step-dad has kept bees for decades (40+ hives). He strains honey through a NEW nylon stocking... No more bugs! Local or wild honey will ruin you for that store bough junk.

Thanks for keeping this thread running despite the trolling. 

Jerry


----------



## Slamm

Pointman said:


> Sam my step-dad has kept bees for decades (40+ hives). He strains honey through a NEW nylon stocking... No more bugs! Local or wild honey will ruin you for that store bough junk.
> 
> Thanks for keeping this thread running despite the trolling.
> 
> Jerry



Thanks Jerry, as they say, don't let the turkeys get you down, LOL. I just got another 120ish acres added to my plate tonight and the landowner is a great, experienced bee keeper that actually lives down in Kentucky and was my machine shop instructor, so I have to give him a call and go see him again. I did just learn that every week I will loose my bees, as they try to remake the new bee hive back at the old location, so therefore, I was instructed that I have to move them 1 mile from their old location and then they wouldn't try to move back to the original spot. Our farm is 3 miles from where I am logging so I will put them their for now, or I will be going back to Kentucky maybe this weekend 3 hours away and want to take them home.

Here I moved them from the middle of the landing to next to my tool trailer. Notice I let the yellow monster do the moving, LOL, aren't swing booms great. Not every bee keeper has one, LOL.




Note my nice domed ash cookie I used for the roof, I think the bees liked the added touch, LOL.





Here is the swing boom lifting a log out of the middle of a "brush pile" of tops.





Here is a couple of angles of the swing boom lifting a pin oak that was already blown over by a storm and I just had to cut and top it.




Here I am standing on the root ball, checking to see if there are any other logs nearby, as I thought this was the last of them in this area, as I don't want to miss any.


----------



## Slamm

Here's a load:




Another:




Another:





Here I am picking up two heavy logs, with the boom too far to the right, just for kicks, I swung it around to the back and down the wheels went, and off we go. Notice for those that don't know this, that 518 has a rear axles that articulates up and down, where as others and all John Deere skidders have the front axle that does the articulation. Its feels weird to go from one machine to the other, as they take bumps different............. I like the Deere way, LOL.









Later,

Sam


----------



## 056 kid

You ever run any timberjack 450s sam?


----------



## Slamm

We got rained out awhile ago and had a bunch of stuff to do at the house before it gets real cold.

Family night for a little while has been working on the saws and projects, and the kids riding their bikes and scooters in the shop. Taylor wanted to play logger, so I fit her up with an appropriate model size for make-believe, LOL.








Who needs a decomp?





What is this hole for? This is the 084.




This is the 880's.





Other projects have included building a pyramid with Colton.


----------



## Slamm

Since we got rained out at the landing, Sammy was running the loader and I was bucking up, we quit and left for home 3 hours away.




Here are our bees.





At Porche965 (John's) recommendation, I made some wooden babysitters, LOL. These are Swedish Candles and they are really neat, and work great. I used some ash and hickory that was laying around. Kids loved them and they cooked me hotdogs all throughout the day, so we didn't starve while Karen is away.

Just take a chunk of firewood and cut it lengthwise into 4 pieces for smaller stuff and 6 for bigger stuff and light the middle on fire with whatever chemical of your choice. They burn for hours. Here is a video of make ours:




I used Kerosine and horse weeds to light the middle.





Here they are burning horse weeds in the fire.










Here it is hours later. I then took that piece and stuck it on top of the next candle and it burned completely gone. No mess.


----------



## Slamm

Oh the joy, core drilling 4" dia. 10 thick concrete, yeah.





Did a 4" for drain and 2" for a new water line going to the second house.





This is a big improvement over the mess that was before.





Another great joy, trenching.





Ordered some toys from Bailey's. I've never tried caulk boots, and the Danner Pronghorns are my favorite lightweigh boots, so I figured the caulked version would be good for a flatlander like me, this winter. Haven't tried them yet. Its deer season today so can't be in the woods, as per the hunters, LOL.





My dad, 80 years old is running the loader and I'm bucking up. We worked until dark yesterday, cut up 70+ logs, and while he was sorting those I pulled out another 20+ to get them out of the woods before hunting this morning.










By dark time this pile was about double.


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## DaddyRabbit

I don't see what you guys are looking at. the only pics I saw were of that awesome looking woman. What saw, trees, skidder ?


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## Mo. Jim

*pics*

Great post and pictures Slamm.I enjoy reading your threads


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## Metals406

You'll love them caulks, and wonder why you didn't have them before.


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> You'll love them caulks, and wonder why you didn't have them before.



Yeah, I have been thinking the same thing. After the first few weeks of my logging career, a timber buyer was watching me cut and run and cut and run and slip and run and so on, and he said I should get caulks, well, I never got around to it. Mostly, because I hate buying shoes/boots without first trying them on, and I don't live anywhere, where I can try them on.

I think these Danners might be lighter duty than something like whites or wesco's, but I'm not really the type of person that likes to wear those big heavy boots, they are cumbersome, and I love these Danner Pronghorns, and when I found the size that fit me at Gander Mountain, I remembered I could get the same boot in a Caulk version. They were $265 at Bailey's, so I think I will like them. I have a bunch of oddball stuff to do this weekend and will likely start cutting Monday, its suppose to rain Saturday, Sunday and Monday and Tuesday, so we'll see.

Here is some stuff we did today:

Fired up the CAT 910 wheel loader and had Sammy road it over to where I had stashed that Franklin Skidder rearend with the little Swing Boom. I wanted to move it to the farm to hopefully started getting it swapped over to the 540B Cable Skidder.










Hooked up to it at first to get it moved into place, but had to re-position the chains:


----------



## Slamm

Here we are waiting for Sammy to come with the loader. Hammer found an old deer leg at the woods, while we were loading the swing boom.





Here is Rachet, he is Hammer's boy. He kept Taylor entertained in the truck, while Sammy and I worked.





Here she showed up.





Later,

Sam


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## Stihlman441

Fantastic pics and post as normal thanks.:msp_thumbsup:


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## lfnh

Appreciate the photos Sam. Thanks for sharing them.
Looking forward to grafting the Franklin swing onto the the Cat.
Expect that'll be interesting!


----------



## Slamm

Thanks guys,

Hey LFNH, that little Esco Swing Boom is going onto a John Deere 540B (Hopefully, LOL).

Here is yesterday morning. We drove the loader down the road to the farm about 3-4 miles and it had a leak for that top clamp or thumb thing, so Colton and I took it off and replaced it, $54 for the line. It had finally worn through in a spot.





We replaced that line:





I had bent the 2nd to last cross member on the dump trailer, loading my 10,000 skid loader, because I blocked up the rearend of the trailer, so as to not pull the rear of the truck off the ground, well I apparently need to block it up in two places, because the crossmember can't handled the weight of all 10,000lbs on it at once (when the tracks break over, during loading). Well we braced the appropriate areas and pushed it back into place with the much larger wheel loader, fixed it just fine. Now I need to fab some sort of short legs that flop down when needed and fold up when not needed, or just pick my truck off the ground when loading it, LOL, I guess it doesn't really hurt anything.





I think the hunters at the logging site have killed out because I didn't see them there Friday afternoon and yesterday, went over there to buck up the last of the logs that I pulled out and have Colton sort them (Suppose to rain in the evening). Steve came over to help cut up, and while we were bucking up, Colton, was just starting to move the 2nd log, when one of the hydraulic lines for the left track just blew and no power. Not really sure why, it wasn't rubbing on anything. So we finished bucking and will address that fix on Monday.  Thats how it goes sometimes, fix one line and another one breaks, LOL. Forgot to get photos of that one.

Was bucking up a worthless Box Elder and found two of these large grubs in it:





The rest of the day is more firewood related, here is that thread:
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/183829-2.htm

Its raining now, so Monday will be fixing the hydraulic line and dropping trees, until it gets dry enough to skid again.

Later,

Sam


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## 7oaks

Sam...Your photos and videos make me feel I'm out there with you. Very enjoyable! Keep um coming.


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## Metals406

Did you eat them fat grubs? :msp_wink:


----------



## little possum

We gotta get some legs/blocks on our triaxle. Scary feelin when ya go slidin down hill with no control till the tractor or skidsteer breaks over the edge


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## Junkfxr

How about some pictures of that black Chebby in the background of the picture of straightening out the rear crossmember on the dump trailer. Looks maybe like a mudder........or a poor boy's skidder?


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## LynchWood

*Swing grapple on 540 cable skidder.*

I cannot stand it any more but I have to ask do you plan own keeping the winch in place as you are installing the swing grapple,I think I have noticed the 518 swing grapple does not have winch but I could be wrong,any way love your photos and I'm always intrested in your family loggin business.Because of your post I want a modded 441 and I have been checking out a 518 grapple skidder on my way home from work.Please keep us posted.Thanks william


----------



## Slamm

> Metals406
> 
> 
> Did you eat them fat grubs?


No, no grubs were damaged in the making of those photos, but their dwelling was thoroughly ruined, LOL. I did try to see if Rachet would eat one and he declined the offer.







> little possum
> 
> 
> We gotta get some legs/blocks on our triaxle. Scary feelin when ya go slidin down hill with no control till the tractor or skidsteer breaks over the edge



Yeah, I'm going to look into making some drop down legs/blocks for this trailer, cause you swear the skid steer is going over every time you back it off or load it up.



> LynchWood
> 
> 
> 
> Swing grapple on 540 cable skidder.
> I cannot stand it any more but I have to ask do you plan own keeping the winch in place as you are installing the swing grapple,I think I have noticed the 518 swing grapple does not have winch but I could be wrong,any way love your photos and I'm always intrested in your family loggin business.Because of your post I want a modded 441 and I have been checking out a 518 grapple skidder on my way home from work.Please keep us posted.Thanks william



I'm going to try and keep the winch, because I figure about 5% of the logs that I will deal with are going to need a winch, plus its handy if retrieving a stuck rig or getting out of a "stuck" situation. Plus its just there already. I also want to keep it to where I can still use the Amsteel Rope and not have to use steel cable, cause I hate that stuff.

That said, I have some pretty neat plans to make the swing boom more versatile than it already is, so I'm not sure how much space, I'm going to need. If it has to go, then it will, but I will try to keep it on there. I'm likely going to convert the shaft drive aspect of the winch to a hydro motor, and get rid of that extra drive shaft so I can use it to run an auxilary hydro pump for faster cylinder actuation due to increase volume, as I would like to be able to move 2-3 directions of the swing boom at once instead of one at a time with limited oil flow volume.

Correct the 518 doesn't have a winch. 

Are you thinking about getting a 518? 
Because if you are there are somethings to think about. First and for most, the full time four wheel drive, it sucks, its horrible. It eats up power and tears up the ground and your trails. As a result of using this skidder with full time four wheel drive, I have learned I will probably never own a machine that has this horrible feature. There isn't logical way to defend it, period. Its a production killer and hard on everything it comes into contact with. I owned a 540A with a full time locked rear differential and I hated it too, at least you could unlock the front diff, but not that back, this ruins turning radius and again is just hard on things needlessly. It also kills your trails and if you are working in compromised conditions, the full time or locked differentials will degrade your trail faster to the point of costing you money. I saw this every day last winter and spring. The open differentialed John Deere's could go over a trail 10 times and it looked the same, the locked differential 518 would go over it and make a turn or two and ruin the trail, or watch it make a turn in a bean field and it just plows up the ground, where as, you can even tell the John Deere even when through the field and turned around.

Second the torque converter transmission. Its reliable and simple to drive, about a perfect solution for employees that don't know how to run a clutch and manual shift tranny, but they suck fuel and require you to floor the pedal instead of using the proper gear.

That said, I can argue just the opposite points for those above two features, for how I use my 518 swing boom, because, I use it as a support skidder and not as the only machine in the operation. I just use my swing boom to gather hitches for the other single action grapple. It just gathers logs to make perfect 2-3 log hitches for the other skidder that is used to shuttle the logs down the main trails to the landing. Again, I don't use the 518 for skidding logs for long distances, as it just destroys trails and uses too much diesel for that job, but its just supreme as a gatherer of logs, in that capacity, I think I would rather have the above two features, the torque converter more than the full time 4x4.

When I finally convert this Cable 540B to the swing boom, its going to get a big inline 6 cylinder engine (John Deere 6414) shoved into it, along with the swing boom with added features for farther reach and/or added capacity. The big inline will provide forward balast that isn't just dead weight, like hanging chunks of iron on the blade or something, that 6414 engine is huge, but should fit with some minor fab work and it bolts up to the tranny already, as its the largest engine in that family line of Dubuque engines.

When I get home, I'm going to work on getting some flotation tires sorted out for these muddy bottoms. One guy we work for says he had these tires on a 540D and it would go where no man could walk, but the machine didn't have the power for the big tires. I think the only weak link in the 540B with that big engine is going to be the rear axle, but it should last a few years and the added production will make up for the loss of an axle/differential every now and then. I have a line on some cheap 648 axles if it comes to that, I'll narrow the rear axle and throw it under the back of the 540B and it won't ever break, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## palogger390

Have you ever considered a forwarder for your operation. I realize they are expensive but if you work steady they pay for them selves in fuel savings alone. Plus you gain alot of rain days. You can do all of your skidding, sorting, and stacking with one machine. With a set of bogie tracks they dang near float.
We had a 1410d deere for a couple of years and it was a great machine. Very productive and efficient. They will go any where a grapple skidder will and come out of places the grapple skidders won't with a hitch. No mess on the landing because all the cut outs were in the woods. And you can lay logs out any where. We sold ours because we were gearing towards whole tree chipping and that never materialized. I regret that decision. Hind sight is 20/20 right?
I'm sure you've considered this. Just thought I'd ask.

Good luck with your swing boom project. And keep those pics coming.


----------



## Slamm

Well, I've been kinda against the forwarders, but would like to discuss and either show my ignorance and learn something or let others know how or why I feel that way about them. It seems every or several of the logging operations around here have tried them and now they no longer have them anymore.

We select cut timber, which typically means one main trail per rough direction. Hard wood or hill timber is typically cut down to 20" DBH and in the bottoms its down to 18" on Softwood. Thats what contracted, but we do cut a pretty good average, its about 330 Board Feet per tree is not uncommon for these jobs. The forwarders that I have seen all seemed rather wide. The skidders I have are either 8-8.5' wide, the flotation tires will add probably 3-4 feet to that, and could only be used on the main trail for (I call it shuttling) logs to the landing. So this is my plan. I pull the logs to the main trail with whatever narrow swing boom machine that the mud and tree population will allow, and then have the "Flotation" skidder shuttle them out to the landing. Its not the gathering of the logs that seems to be the problem with the normal tires its the main trails (for obvious reasons) repeated heavy loads.

Are you thinking we should use the forwarder for the main trail or for all the gathering and shuttling of the logs? I just don't see them "sneaking" around the timber as neatly, as the little 8-8.5' skidders do, but I could be wrong, ......................but I drive right through so many trees that the tires are just about to skim off the bark with the little skidders and I don't see how the bigger 548-648 machines don't just rip everything to heck, and honestly from what I have seen, they do, and their main trails look like landing strips for airplanes.

For this lower quality timber in these bottoms, I have considered and been close to getting a trailer mounted log loader with a slasher saw, as the lower quality timber can be graded from the cab within reason, no so with good grade timber. I was going to take the swing booms and just pile logs up behind the loader's trailer and slash cut them and load them high, it would cut out some human cutting time, but those things are about $15,000+++ and now its big trucks to move the equipment around and what not.

I don't know, every winter I come to this "mudd" wall and ponder solutions and basically its a crap or get off the pot situation with equipment, and I don't want to get bigger or make payments or get more equipment ........ but wait there is another solution, LOL, and that is I just work when weather permits in the bottom ground and log the hill country when it permits, and for about $4,000 I can get a set of 4 flotation tires and get under 5psi, which is pretty good for floating on mud, or so it is with my little MTL20 track loader. If its just too wet, I go hog hunting or vacation or something, so I look forward to rain at times, thats how I make rain fun, LOL.

Anyways, just thinking out loud. Are there some Models of Forwarders that are smaller, if so, how much wood can they move as compared to a 540B grapple or similar model. A few weeks ago I bunched 30+ logs per hour with that 518 Swing Boom. Could have a guy measuring & bucking them up along the trail, easy enough, and then an appropriate sized Forwarder move the cut logs from the trail side to the landing and stack for the log trucks .............. or load the log trucks (correct).

Those are my thoughts on it,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

As this has come up a couple of times............ are the videos of the cutting trees not working? I can see them without any problem, so I assume others can see them too.

Here are some pointless photos.
Pulled the cover off the Killer 660 after some modest noodle cutting, yikes.





This is both sides of the HD2 filter that is/was on it then.









Here is a neat set of Loctite that I got from the machine shop. I like it better than the liquid, as it is "neater". Much less waste.








Red Loctite





Nobody answered what is this hole for, its on the 084 and the 880 clutch covers?


----------



## Slamm

Stihl Forestry Helmet has been tested and approved for comfort and protection by Taylor (4 years old) she wears her's religiously, LOL, she has crashed a few times on her skooter and bike and had it on, we think it worked, LOL.





Lay over in Washington DC.





Over New York City on the way to Boston. Sat next to a physician and scientist lady, we had good discussions to say the least.





Later,

Sam


----------



## bitzer

Sam I can tell you this about forwarders- Its nice to buck in the woods and my firewood sticks equal what I make (dollars) in bf production. My guess is you are still not pulpin? I apologize, I have not kept up with the thread. I don't know what your firewood market is down there, but that is at least half of my income. My rig is 8' wide and all I do is selective cutting as well. Lots of sneakin around stuff. If all I haul is logs on it I can get between 1000-1500bf per turn (obviously dependant on length). My rig is a single bunk.


----------



## Slamm

bitzer said:


> Sam I can tell you this about forwarders- Its nice to buck in the woods and my firewood sticks equal what I make (dollars) in bf production. My guess is you are still not pulpin? I apologize, I have not kept up with the thread. I don't know what your firewood market is down there, but that is at least half of my income. My rig is 8' wide and all I do is selective cutting as well. Lots of sneakin around stuff. If all I haul is logs on it I can get between 1000-1500bf per turn (obviously dependant on length). My rig is a single bunk.



Sounds pretty good, what model is it? Got and photos?

That board footage per load/bunk/hitch/turn sounds decent since you can still "sneak" around the woods.

What is the horsepower of that machine?

Does it allow for modifications to provide some sort of flotation "stuff" for it? 

As to the pulp, no, there isn't any market for it around here, just due mostly to location or distance to the mill from where most of my jobs are, and the price per ton doesn't compare to the price per board foot with the good timber we get to cut on average, and with no headaches. There are two pulp mills within 3 hours drive and talking to the truck drivers sounds like one of those logger reality shows, when it comes to the mill being open or close and the epic saga's that, that produces. Its just a headache, I've never had to deal with and I won't make anymore money if I do deal with it.

Firewood, don't know, I know I don't know anyone around here cutting for it and nobody seems to be asking for it, so take that for what its worth.

I'm interested in a mud worthy Forwarder, but it better be cheap, its competition is vacations during raining seasons and/or $4,000 set of flotation tires, LOL.

Sam


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## Slamm

Well I just did some modest shopping they are not cheap, LOL. I assume to walk on mudd, I would need to get the ones with the tandems in the back with steel tracks? yes or no.

As the other ones I saw simply had the same 23.1x26's I have on my skidders, which either sink or tear up an already muddy trail and end up making it unworkable. Remember this is bottoms ground, where there isn't a bottom to the mud, you can get stuck and start to sink with a machine and come back tomorrow and it sank 3 more feet, without your assistance.

Is the difference between dragging a stick or "hauling" a stick that great, and that is where the difference is? Or are those tandem axles rearends that much better at floating?

Sam


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## mingo

We had a Rottne on couple of are jobs and my skidder was making ruts empty and the forwarder would drive over them with a load on and smooth them out. They have dual controls so you just spin the seat around and drive the other way no turning around. It's hard to believe how little ground pressure the tamden axles have,and it was not much wider than my skidder with 18.4x34s on it.


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## palogger390

I think a 12 ton capacity machine would keep you around 9' wide or less depending on the tire size. And you definitely would want a tandem(bogie) machine with a set of eco tracks for working in sensitive areas. As far as production goes, I put around 2000 Bft or 15 tons of pulp wood an hour on the landing with our 1410.

But I'm with you on the being able to afford some time off. At a certain point your equipment starts owning you instead of the reverse. I've been in this boat for about 6 years now. 6-7 Days a week year round. Got to put trees on the ground. I sure miss the days of the paid for cable skidder.


----------



## Slamm

Well between what you guys are telling me and my little research on them, I think they would work pretty good, in tandem form, but man they are expensive. I think for now I will still get the flotation tires for the skidder/s as it is never a bad idea for them to float a little better, and possibly the flotation tires provide enough of a "positive" to allow enough work to get done through the wet times to not need a forwarder. The best solution would have been to work harder/faster when the weather was good, LOL, but had a lot of other things to get done before winter.

I think one the size of Bitzer's would work just fine for me. I'm going to really shop around and see what comes up on the used market. Might try to see if a set of tandems could be had off a burnt machine or something else ...... if they are cheap, I could very reasonably make a new rearend for one of the 540B's, just a thought.

Is it agreed that the benefits are mostly from the tandem setups? I mean a forwarder with singles on the front and back wouldn't be much different than a regular skidder, just not dragging the hitch.

Would tandems in just the back half be enough for this muddy work?

Thanks guys,

Sam


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## Metals406

Sam, with your full access to a fab shop, I would suggest making your own forwarder.

I bet you could throw a custom unit together for 20k or less, depending on how much you scavenge from already made stuff on used equipment.

I'd make a trailer frame (or buy one), and put bunks on it. Then order a new sorting grapple (like the ones Bailey's sells) or, again, find an old Prentice setup and mount it up.

For the trailers axles, a walking beam dual front and rear wouldn't be too hard to make. and you could put nice fat tires on it to make it's psi footprint whatever you needed.

Now for the tractor side of things. . . Lots of options there. You could use a regular tractor like they do a lot in Europe, or come up with something out of a bone yard. 

I did a quick CL search for KY and surrounding area, and there's several old loaders I bet ya could snag for less than they have them listed for. log loader on SearchTempest

Just thinking out loud here. . . And sharing some ideas.


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## palogger390

The benefits are mostly from the tandem set ups. Additionally you are carrying the load instead of dragging which means less wheel spin and plowing. You are also making alot less trips to produce the same volume of material.

We had an eight wheeler, tandem front and rear. If I were to purchase another one, which I am considering, it would be a six wheeler. Mainly for manuverability and easier to fit on a lowboy.


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## Slamm

Thanks PALogger, for the info about the six wheeler vs 8 wheeler. I was hoping that a 6 wheeler would be good enough. 

Metals406,
The more I look at the price of those, the more it makes more sense for me to start looking at making one. Especially if I want a tandem rear. I don't think this is going to happen this winter. I talked with the flotation tire guy again and now have the price somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 per tire 66x43x25 and $100 per wheel, so that is $2,400 for a set of 4. He thinks he'll have the right bolt count/size for the hubs but might not have the right offset needed. So I could have new centers laser/waterjet/plasma cut out and weld them in at the offsets that I want or just scarf the weld out of the centers that come with the $100 wheels and reweld them at the offset that I need. We'll see, for that cheap of a price, I might try 1 set on the 540B single action grapple and if it works good enough, get another set for the 518 CAT Swing Boom ...... have to see. I'll see how these tires work on the skidders, if its good enough to not warrant the pursuit of a floating forwarder then fine, if not, we'll have to evaluate that later. Its just too, cheap to get the flotation tires now, and hopefully they work.

I need to get this second swing boom started and finished. Once that is done will then take what I learned from that and consider making a forward off of a cheap burnt 540B's front end with an extended cab, with Flotation tires on the front and maybe tandems with the same cheap floaters on the back. I wonder how tandem axles with locking differentials would work if they came off of a semi, they are pretty cheap. I can get 150hp+ engines for it pretty cheap, add auxliary hydraulics to the back of the Deere transmission for the grapple boom. There is a 420 acre "mild hill" job where all of the wood has to come across a soft bottoms ground, so there would be a future for the machine. I think that $20,000 target could be a sound figure, I know were I can get the front half of a 540B for little of nothing. It would be a neat project.

Well on to other things. I just got back from the machine shop. Was installing a CAD system on my laptop for designing things on the road, took the 441 MTronic's SS muffler along for the ride. Had something neat in mind for it, then got into a rush and just hogged it out and left.
This is stock form.






This is larger than stock, LOL.





Should be rather free flowing.









This is a SS "grill" I was going to put in it, but that didn't happen, ran out of time.





Yes, ranger/officer it does have the original spark arrester in it, LOL.





Don't know if I've ever put pics of the machine shop up here, here are some:


----------



## Slamm

Here are more:










Here is the wire EDM, its running two parts for some automotive wrist pin removal tool or something???





The part looks something like this, but is broken, we're making two more.





If you have never heard a wire EDM burn, this is a video and what it sounds like. Its cutting through those two pieces of metal with a .010 thick piece of wire, pretty neat if you haven't ever seen it before:




Here I stopped the machine and lowered the water level so you could see the "cut".


----------



## Slamm

Back by the welders:









A bunch of stainless at this rack.





Thats the last of it.

Later,

Sam


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## Metals406

That's a nice shop Sam!! EDM is a neat process for sure.


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## Stihlman441

Nice work shop there Sam,i woud fit in there well being a machinest for the last 26 years.

With that 441 muff modd,i have been thinking of some type of screen,it would be very easy for somrthing to get in there all the way to the p & c.I have made it a habbit when finished cutting for the day to pull the starter rope untill the piston is top dead centre to keep out moisture and anything else.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice work shop there Sam,i woud fit in there well being a machinest for the last 26 years.
> 
> With that 441 muff modd,i have been thinking of some type of screen,it would be very easy for somrthing to get in there all the way to the p & c.I have made it a habbit when finished cutting for the day to pull the starter rope untill the piston is top dead centre to keep out moisture and anything else.



Yeah, tell me about it. I'm going to get around screening all of my saws, as I recently had a worker, literally fill the muffler and complete PC area with nice clean saw chips, as they came out of another saw. No harm done to the saw, but had to take it completely apart to clean them all out. 

I put a gapping hole in this muffler, with the intenstions of putting that larger screen sheet in there, just didn't have time tonight. Other than just one time, I've never had any issues with the large muffler holes, but it certainly could happen. I was thinking about just cutting out a large flatter section of the muffler and just tig welding in some of that screen sheet, I think the holes are 1/4" so it would be easy to figure the square inches to the desired area wanted. We have screen with varying smaller sizes of holes. I'm just going to put this one back on the Mtronic 441 and put the old steel one on it, back on my #2 441, where it came from.

Sam


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## s219

Wow, that is a nice shop -- I could get lost in there and have some fun. 

I like how someone painted the x/y/z axes on the EDM machine. Saves you from making right-hand-rule hand puppets, and looking like a dork, every time you clamp a new piece on the table.


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## Slamm

Well blew the first line of this machines history with me. It was the line going to the drive motor for the left track. Wasn't very hard to get to....... lift the cab and there is the fitting, then take off 4 bolts and the cover under the rubber track and there is the other end. The hose was $64.









Yippy, water and mudd, another winter is here.

















Here I am pushing some logs from the second pile to the log truck so he can reach them better. I then have to push him out and up the ramp.









I'm off to go sort and stack those last logs laying in the water. Oh what joy, LOL.

Sam


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## Slamm

Well, got the original pile of logs gone and now have stacked another one. I left and am back in Kentucky now. I stacked these up for them to get tomorrow. They can stay on the hard packed rock so they won't get stuck. Notice how much the water went down.









This is the blocking pile or pallet wood.





This is the grade ash pile.





I'm back home and going to remove the living room/master bedroom a wall, move it or re-arrange it, and remove an old worthless chimney in the house and install a Blaze King wood stove in the house. I have ordered the flotation tires and will likely pick them up next week sometime.

Later,

Sam


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## 7oaks

*Blaze King stove*



Slamm said:


> install a Blaze King wood stove in the house.
> Later,
> 
> Sam



Blaze King Stoves are the best! Have had one in the Montana cabin for 24 years and it is better than any other we've owned or had the opportunity to use. You'll love it.


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## Slamm

Well since December 6th, I've been remodeling the house and getting some jobs lined up. I got a new one down here in Kentucky and haven't been working up in Illinois for some time now. I moved the 540B cable skidder and the MTL20 Track Loader down a couple of days ago. I started cutting today. I'm working with a contract farmer who is making a better creek crossing for his equipment and mine, so I'm moving a bunch of busted up concrete and he is using his 200 John Deere excavator to smooth out the creek crossing. I cut for a few hours this afternoon, while my skidder driver loaded concrete and dumbed it near the creek for the farmer to help get the log trucks across.

This is a 18" and bigger select cut of mild hill timber, mostly hickory, white and red oak, with some soft maple in the bottoms of the hills.






1st tree cut after a few months of no cutting.





The excavator need a few dropped to get them out of the way, these are two soft maples.





Another one


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## Slamm

Here is a predictament. Slip and its a ways down, as in the root ball is hanging off of the creek bank.




















I have a pretty neat triple that is to the right of this tree and I cut 2 of the 3, but it was very dark and the camera wouldn't take the photo. Will try to get it tomorrow.

Later,

Sam


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## Birdhunter1

What area are your upcoming Illinois jobs? I like this thread, keep em coming!


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## Stihlman441

Hi there Sam good stuff keep it coming.

How much quicker,ballsy would you say your ported 441s are compared to the stock 441 Cs with muff modd ?.

Cheers
Andrew


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## Slamm

I have some Illinois jobs going, but they are too wet and I never got my flotation tires yet, been busy. This job is a 40 acre-ish mild hill job that dries out a little better, plus the landing areas are pastures that are going to be disked into corn fields, so they don't really care if I rut it up. The farmer is going to be there with a dozer today pushing back the edges of the fields from where they grew up.



Stihlman441 said:


> Hi there Sam good stuff keep it coming.
> 
> How much quicker,ballsy would you say your ported 441s are compared to the stock 441 Cs with muff modd ?.
> 
> Cheers
> Andrew



We'll the painted saw, I think is faster, but I never got a chance to run it side by side very much. When Steve and I were noodle cutting it was pulling a 28" bar buried at 12,200 rpms in seasoned ash and that was dogged in or loaded in the cut. His stock "unbroke in" 441 was high 9,000 rpms and we ran 8 tanks through it and it got into the low 10,000's with his expert tuning in the cut. The painted saw just couldn't be touched that day after Steve tuned it in the cut. and unfortunately I had many of my saws get stolen, including both of my Mtronic saws, one of which was never taken out of the box ...... never even cut the tape on the box, as I had traded the "sticked" 441 Mtronic to Steve, because he was going to buy one and I had one that had never been started, then got another one, when I went back home. I still have my painted 441 and my #4 441 .... I had 5 of them. They also took my 260 and my Killer 660, which really, really pisses me off, as I won't ever see another 660 ported like that again. That is the one saw I didn't take apart so I don't know what Terry did to it, the 441/Mtronic, I know what he did, but not that 660, that thing could murder a stock clutch. All in all, they took my black, Chevy Duramax truck and about $40,000 worth of rifles, pistols, saws, tools, welders and other such stuff. I got the truck back and some of the cheaper stuff, but no guns, saws, tools or welders/plasma cutters they took off with everything of value, so that has been a major setback. The insurance is going to pick up a decent amount, but the saws they won't because under my farm policy they won't cover "professional" equipment (thats my fault not theirs) ............ and well the saws got labeled as professional by them, big suprise there, they let the tools, welder and plasma cutter slide by ..... well, I think, haven't got a check yet. I had my family with me in the mini van when i pulled up to the shop at about 10:45pm and the shop door was open after a big storm, by all accounts we missed them by about 15 minutes, which is a mixed blessing, they would have been heavily armed at that point, and all I had was a Glock 27 and Karen and my 4 and 11 year old girls, so probably best that we missed them as it would have been hard to not go full into it, but it could have turned real ugly real fast at that point if they were cornered. So we'll take our licks and keep moving on.

This guy was suppose to be in the shop and usually is, but it was going to be 60F that day and I thought he would want to be running around at another place outside, that was the biggest screw up of the whole incident.





Long and short of it, it was locals that new which of the big dogs was where, and they knew we were gone. The sheriff's caught some of them, but not sure what is going on, as they sure don't give up any information about what is going on in the case.

As to the saws, I will have to get around to porting one of these 441 Mtronic saws, I know I won't buy a 660 back for profesional use, as I just don't see the point in them, the 441 CM is a much better saw for cutting wood. The dealer has some 441 Mtronic's lined up at the store for me, but I'm going to see what insurance does, before a couple of those show up again. I can tell you this, I would have an Mtronic in those photos above, if I had one ............... does that answer your question, LOL, they just have such good manners for such a powerful saw, and there is something about that little guy in the computer adjusting things all the time, dog it in and you can tell he is working, LOL. The beauty of the Mtronic isn't in the peak RPM in the cut, which is comparible to any other 70+ saw or faster, its in everything else, its what makes everyone who has one happy with them, the 441 CM shows up to cut wood, period.

Well I gotta go, I've got an ex-amish guy adding new exterior walls to the house this morning and one hauling concrete for the creek crossing at the logging site down the road, and I need to be cutting trees.

Later all,

Sam


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## Stihlman441

Thanks Sam,sorry to hear about all ya stuff getting stollen bummer 
With a bit of luck and i hope ya get some of it back mainly ya saws,good luck.
Keep me posted about you porting the 441Cs im after another one.


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## deye223

yeah sam sorry too hear about your gear hope the insurance comes too the party with a big cheque


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## Birdhunter1

That sucks Sam, I hate thieves. Right after we built our place and moved to the farm my dads 4 wheeler was swiped from his place one night and tracks were visible in the mud next to my driveway and going right down the center of the drive all the way to the road. It had happened after I had got home on night at 1130 as the mud wasn't in the driveway when I came home and drove past his pole barn. The insurance company treated him well though.

Hopefuly your insurance does you right and you can get a new truck, I drove a friends brand new Duramax a few weeks ago and it ROCKED. On the other upside if you replace that 260 with a 261 you'll have a smile again.

My dad was a Ford salesman for 25 years, one night late when I was driving through the lot to look to see if my new truck was in yet I found a guy underneath one trying to steal the nerf bars. I took it as the guy was messing with my dads livelihood and all I can say is that the perp was aweful happy when the cops got there and I wasn't 'detaining' him anymore. But you are right it was likely a good thing that you didn't intercept the thieves.


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## Junkfxr

Yeah Sam, sorry to hear about your stuff. Remember, it's just stuff. You're right about being lucky that you missed them, stuff can be replaced, you and your family can't. We had a rash of the same type of thing around here back around Christmas, I know how you feel. Sometimes the only comfort you have is believing that what comes around goes around.

12,000 rpm with a 28" bar buried in a cut!!! Sounds like you need to knock more off of the top of the gage teeth, then hold on tight and enjoy the ride!


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## Slamm

Here Menno is hauling concrete scrap to the creek bottom to be used by the farmer to make him and us a better creek crossing.





Then I volunteered Menno and my loader to spread the red rock for the landowner.





Landscape photos:









Here is the farmer's operator moving the 200 Deere excavator out of the creek.





Here is the nasty triple that i cut last night in the dark. I haven't cut the third one down for obvious reasons, LOL.




I stood on this one to cut the second one.




Its leaning over the creek and limb locked with another tree. Probably will pull it with the skidder.


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## Slamm

Here is one of those little red oaks that everyone thinks they need a 660 to "stump cut", well I just use this little 70cc Stihl, it pulled 10,800 give or take going around it, the chain hadn't been sharpened for about 6-10 trees. Not real sure how much faster some of these people think they need to cut a tree down, LOL.










Here is my video comentary on the fine use of a fiskar's axe when I used up my only two wedges on a leaning sycamore that needs three to convince it to start falling over, LOL. I've seen the Europeans use some sort of lever tool to pry over those little trees, in the spirit of being open minded I figured I would try their technique ..... works pretty good, don't think I will use the wedges anymore, LOL.




Thanks for the good words guys. It is a setback, but that is life, we'll push on and do better.

Later,

Sam


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## Beefie

Thanks for the pics Slamm, how deep is the creek that you guys are linning with the concrete?

Beefie


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## Slamm

Beefie said:


> Thanks for the pics Slamm, how deep is the creek that you guys are linning with the concrete?
> 
> Beefie



Well the water is just about 8-12" deep, the farmer wants a 50' wide crossing and he is making it, all I have to do is move the concrete and watch him work. My job is done at this point. We will start skidding tomorrow morning with the cable skidder, and here I thought my cable skidding days were over.

Gotta go,

Sam


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## Stihlman441

Nice vid there Sam,them axes are the bees knees i have had one for years smiko product them.:msp_thumbsup:


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## Slamm

More little oaks and hickory's falling to the modded 441 ......................... 62 of them today, and I didn't work for a good portion of the day due to dealing with insurance company and home remodeling issues. I wonder if the cookie cutters will ever understand why a modded 70cc saw is such an efficient slayer of wood?

















Here is one going over. It needed a little help to go where it didn't really want to go.




Here is one of the three domino's done today. The other two were done when it was too dark to video.




Later,

Sam


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## Slamm

Well my phone shot craps. So not much for photos of the last 120ish logs that were cut and skid. I got this one of Menno's Catahoula crossed pup riding the logs out of the woods.





And this one of how thick the chips are when I back bar'd this tree, getting it to swing around and fall back into the scrub brush instead of the field where I would have to clean it up.





We will be working tomorrow some, I have to take my Duramax to the mechanic to get a list of damage and get it fixed from the thieves, doing that sometime tomorrow. Then no work Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, going out of town for the Master Logger's 3 day deal. 

Cut a lot of nicer hickory yesterday and today and I'm really sick of them, they have to be the most miserable tree to cut, as they aren't just hard, everything about them fights you or hits you, a 1 1/2" branch will pinch your bar so hard you can't get it loose, and after you walk the top of the log limbing them, you can kick yourself mad, trying to step through or around the branches, as they won't budge or break or move. After cutting hickory a lot this morning, I got into a patch of burr oaks and what a treat, you can cheat and do a lot of things wrong and they just fall over easy. Red oaks are a joke compared to the shaggy hickory.

I started using my Danner Pronghorn Caulk boots and wow are they nice, say goodbye to slipping, and they make life so much easier.

Try to get a new phone tomorrow, it won't let me call out most of the time or answer the phone or take photos, if you do take a photo it doesn't save it???

Later.

Sam


----------



## tlandrum

our master logger update is only an 8 hr class. id be pissed off having to loose 3 days for the class. this time of year 3 days means a lot. especially with the rain my areas been seeing this year.


----------



## Slamm

tlandrum said:


> our master logger update is only an 8 hr class. id be pissed off having to loose 3 days for the class. this time of year 3 days means a lot. especially with the rain my areas been seeing this year.



True enough, but it won't do me any good to get mad about it. It has to be done, as that is the rules of the game in Kentucky. In Illinois we don't have to have anything ............... we can truly be hacks, LOL.

Its a 3 hour drive from here, so Menno and I are leaving early Tuesday morning and coming back Thursday. The other amish kid is going to refinish the hardwood floors, I'm not sure who has it worse, LOL.

Sam


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## deye223

hey sam is that a Hard-Head Falling Wedge sitting on the stump if so how do you like e'm or have you found better


----------



## forestryworks

Slamm said:


> Cut a lot of nicer hickory yesterday and today and I'm really sick of them, they have to be the most miserable tree to cut, as they aren't just hard, everything about them fights you or hits you, a 1 1/2" branch will pinch your bar so hard you can't get it loose, and after you walk the top of the log limbing them, you can kick yourself mad, trying to step through or around the branches, as they won't budge or break or move. After cutting hickory a lot this morning, I got into a patch of burr oaks and what a treat, you can cheat and do a lot of things wrong and they just fall over easy. Red oaks are a joke compared to the shaggy hickory.



I agree. Hickory is no fun.


----------



## Slamm

Yes, it is a hard head wedge. They are the only wedges I want to use anymore. They cost more, but last much much more. A couple of thoughts, as to why I like them.

With the steel head, they don't peen over period, and they really transfer the strike force to the wedge and lift harder than a normal plastic wedge. I like this because I like to carry/use the smaller/lighter Fiskars axe for modest wedging and getting out of a pinch. So I carry a lighter axe, but heavier wedges that last longer no matter what axe is used.

In my opinion, the only other wedges worth spending money on are those red/white K&H's I think is the name of them. They last really good for plastic wedges, and the triple angles lift wood very well and are faster then stacking wedges, but the K&H's still peen over and have to be trimmed and since they are plastic you loose some energy in the plastic instead of moving the wedge.

I've tried several other cheaper plastic wedges from different makers and they usually end up cost more money by breaking and being left in the woods next to the stump they broke on.

Sam


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## lps8

*great post*

Great post or more like a book. Enjoyed everything except for all the "advisors". They just need to start their own post to show us how it should be done instead of trying to tell you. "Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive." Proverbs 17:28

Keep up the good work.

Larry


----------



## Slamm

Thanks for the good words, LPS8.


Ever just need to buy a few bars, LOL. Got these 20-20" ES bars for another guy, one of the guys is drive past his house so they are taking them to him.





Well my dealer set me up with two Full Wrap Model 441 CM with 28" ES Light bars (he swapped the Half wrap handles out for me and swapped out the bars for me ............. I still had to pay for the bars and wrap handles. This is how they should come from Stihl ............ Stihl are you listening????? Get this, then Karen gets in the truck and drives 2 hours north with my saws in the back ...... I'm sitting here with no truck and no saws ......... this is wrong. Also got a 261, will try that out too..... needed a skidder saw. Its set up with 20" bar 3/8" Full Skip semi chisel.





Timber buyer stopped in at the house and got me so we could go mark the logs for bucking up later, it too wet now and I don't want to run equipment on the wet ground when it should dry out later. Got some pretty decent grade logs out of these logs. There is 80+ more logs down in a valley that I forgot to photo.









Here we are at the Kentucky Master Logger's class. They did a poll and 65% of the people used Stihl saws and the rest Husky, there were no "Other" saws accounted for in this class................ can you say "Dolmar ...... whats that???" LOL





Here we are inspecting some poor local logger's mess with the logging instructor and local forestry ranger.






I don't know if I put this one in before ............... don't you just wish there was more crap in the tree over your head when you are trying to work, LOL. Lets just say I spent a lot of time looking up on this one, and it was a good thing, one dead branch fell within 2 feet of me when I was cutting it, and that dead snag that was leaning in it, fell right where I took that photo.





Learned some neat stuff at the logger's class. Logging is 21 times more dangerous than all other forms of work when you average them together. It has the highest death rate per 100,000 (In Kentucky) period. Fishing and Commerical pilots are the other two front runners that can have more deaths per year, but they don't have more deaths or injuries per 100,000.

There is no other single job description, that is statistically more dangerous than the timber cutters, period.

Thats about it for today. Just some photos from this last week. Working on getting everything organized from the theft, still don't have my Duramax back, I paid for the saws out of my pocket because no insurance money yet. I see diesel is going up in price thats not good. Lost a day of work to bad/stale/jelly diesel. We pulled out about 50 trees with the diesel that was in the tank from last year ( I didn't use this cable skidder much) and the first 30 trees were fine then that 540B started smoking like a diesel drag truck and it lost so much power, that I considered mule logging for a few hours, LOL. Checked a few things and talked to some diesel techy people and came to the conclusion that we would suck out the old, soybean diesel from the Farm Service Company, and try fresh diesel and some treatment, sure enough the smoke finally quit and the power is back to normal, with logging there is always something.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Well here is my new 261. I don't want to run it anymore than I have as I can't clearly hear it 4 stroke, so I have to do that modd to the H Screw so I can turn it past the 3/4 turn.

I put some dual dawgs on I had laying around, they are for the 441's, but I like them a lot better than those horrible ones they sell for the 361. These 441 dawgs require drilling two new holes in the outside dawg, grinding off a tiny amount to the inner dawg (you could do it with a chain file its so little) and getting longer M5 bolts, but its well worth it, as I hate the lower tooth on the 361 "bucking" style dawgs.

I also added the Works Connection Tach to it before I started it. Drilled a little hole through the snowflake on the right side and threaded the wire through that little hole.






























The scrench is pointing to where I drilled the hole for the mini tach:





And your done:





I started working on both of the 441CM's but I couldn't get the mini tachs to work on them like I did my other one, which did work. That said, I thought about it for awhile and tried a few things and failed a few times and then I did it, I figured out how to make it work flawlessly ............ stay tuned, LOL.

On a side note, I have purchased many of these Works Connection tachs, at least 25+ and I finally got one that didn't work. I will be sending it back, so we will see how the customer service is ..... won't we.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

I forgot to put these photos in. This one has all the parts that could be used to add these style of dawgs to any saw, but the M5x12 screws are too short for the 261 and likely a few other models, so get longer bolts at a hardward store. I have the M5x12 installed on my 261 above, but I had Karen get me some M5x16's and will install them and a washer later. Don't pay attention to the 2 and 4 quantities on those bags, I had these as spares or something. I just found them in my stash of parts and used them. You only need one of each spike/dawg and two of the bolts and nuts.






Really these below are all you need and then get the two M5x16 bolts and locking nuts or equivalent at the hardware store, remember to spring for the stainless steel bolts and nuts, so they don't rust like a Husky will, LOL.





Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Good stuff Sam and thanks.
It would be interesting to see if you do a muff modd on one of the CMTronics and leave one stock and see the difference ?.
Im wondering with a muff modd if they run richer,more torque and if the sweet spot in rpm changes.
Looks like your a bar dealer,they sound last ya awhile.:msp_smile:
I have found with the 261 my one has a dual port that it like around 13800,they are a nice little saw.I put 5 1/2 hrs on mine yesterday hanging out of a cage trimming trees.
I hope ya got a better spot to lock up them new saws mate.
Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Birdhunter1

I'll be looking for your review on the 261 with 20" 3/8". I am running .325 on mine and I like the 18" better but it handles the 20" well too. Currently I'm running the 20" due to trashy dirty wood and simply the extra reach as it is more brush cleanup than wood cutting.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Good stuff Sam and thanks.
> It would be interesting to see if you do a muff modd on one of the CMTronics and leave one stock and see the difference ?.
> Im wondering with a muff modd if they run richer,more torque and if the sweet spot in rpm changes.
> Looks like your a bar dealer,they sound last ya awhile.:msp_smile:
> I have found with the 261 my one has a dual port that it like around 13800,they are a nice little saw.I put 5 1/2 hrs on mine yesterday hanging out of a cage trimming trees.
> I hope ya got a better spot to lock up them new saws mate.
> Thanks for sharing.



Andrew, I already have a modded muffler and yes, I will put it on one and keep the other one stock that is until if or when I find that I'm losing power or money and it annoys me. I still have that modded, SS muffler that I did at the machine shop, as I never swapped the regular steel one out and it was on a shelf, that they robbers didn't molest.

I will say this, with my last Mtronic, I did timed cuts with and without the modded muffler and there were no differences in cookie cutting using a 28" bar and 20" ash log cookies. But it was cookie cutting and not lugging the saw or work conditions, so I will/should do a more extensive test with these two. Also I have a pretty good infrared temp gauge that I could test the temperatures. I will do what I can, but at times the skidder is breathing down my neck and I just have to cut and learn what I can as I go.

The bars are not for me, they are for someone in need of a lot of 20" 3/8" .050, I'm simply an assistant in providing quality products to those in need. It is better that these poor individuals run quality bars than to have to run Oregon bars or other such pieces of crap like Forester.

I've got to move the limiter cap settings so I can get it richer, because I cut a little with it at the firewood pile, but I sure couldn't get it to four stroke no matter what I did. I even ran the L screw really rich and didn't seem to hear anything. I'll run it a little while and then modd the muffler and advance the timing and get rid of the base gasket.

The saws are in the same spot, but there is this 





in there with them, as in, his bed is right next to them. He should have been there last time and it was just the robber's luck he wasn't. 

That brindle dog's brother (below):




also has the gate to his pen left open at night, and he is worse than the brindle one, and there aren't any outside lights left on. I'd say the out come will be a little different if there is a next time.

I'm working on getting 12 security cameras put up, but have a couple of things to do first.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Birdhunter1 said:


> I'll be looking for your review on the 261 with 20" 3/8". I am running .325 on mine and I like the 18" better but it handles the 20" well too. Currently I'm running the 20" due to trashy dirty wood and simply the extra reach as it is more brush cleanup than wood cutting.



The one I ran before had the timing advanced and the muffler modded and I think the base gasket removed, it had a couple of tanks through it and it had .325 20" on it and it was difficult to stop the chain, as in you had to really dawg it in hard to get it to slow down. So, it will pull the 3/8" 20" just fine. Plus I run full skip so that is much easier to pull, but the cutters last longer and stay sharper longer than with .325.

I'll get my 15-20 tanks through it and see how it goes.

Sam


----------



## Birdhunter1

I know a guy who does a dandy job with custom security systems that would travel to your area. he works out of Cape Girardeau, MO but travels all over and will literally build the system to what is needed at your site.


----------



## Slamm

Birdhunter1 said:


> I know a guy who does a dandy job with custom security systems that would travel to your area. he works out of Cape Girardeau, MO but travels all over and will literally build the system to what is needed at your site.



PM me his contact information and maybe if he is in the area sometime he could stop by. I'm south of Paducah, KY.

Thanks,

Sam


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## Birdhunter1

Pm sent.
I went with .325 on my 261 to be able to swap bars and chains with my 204 and 029 Super if needed. I no longer own either of those two so whenever my current setups wear out and need replaced I'm game for 3/8 or .325.


----------



## Slamm

Well this was the catch for today. Cut 44 trees and most of them were biggins. I think I was at about 2.5+ gallons of mix. Put 5 hours on the new completely stock 441 CM (not even a Muffler Modd), basically its first day of work. I had a skidder riding my back most of the day so I did what I could with the photos and keeping the above stats, didn't keep track of actual tankfills.

Just for the record, if someone would have shown up with either a stock or modded 660 with a 28-36" bar to give to me, I would tell them to sell it and go buy me another 441 CM Wrap and a 28" Lite bar and keep the change for gas and time. You couldn't give me one for production reasons ............... CAD yes, production no. This stock 441CM ran around these big Cherry Bark Oaks, Red Oaks, White Oaks and Hickory's running at 10,000-11,000 rpms with the bar usually completely buried at the felling cuts and topping cuts. Heres the photo and these are just some of the trees.





















Had to cut the hinge on this one as it was leaning so hard the skidder wouldn't push it over, so back over the stump she went. No harm.





Here's a mess, dropped the single to the left and dropped the double at the same time with them going in different directions. I won't lie, I ran a short distance, LOL.





You need a long bar for these kinda monsters, LOL. It cleaned up about 5 feet higher up.


----------



## Slamm

Don't you hate it when you do this to yourself.




Now it looks like this.





Here is the below Red Oak and Hickory before I started cutting them and setting them up for a domino.





This is how the contract farmer cleans up the field edges with the excavator. He just scratches the trees and branches down and back, quite unsitely.





(Video Below) Here is a good amount of wood hitting the ground. Its a Red oak into a big Hickory ............. Domino'd.




Here is the Hickory going to the landing.





Here is the Red Oak going to the landing.


----------



## Slamm

And there's more.

Here's a little one:





Another one.





Another one.





Here is a video of pushing a cherry bark over that wouldn't wedge over .......... I didn't try real hard.




More





At this point a guy running a 660 would have run through 3+ gallons and would have quit because he was too tired to keep working.
But the 441 CM is still going.





Big Hickory





Big Red Oak


----------



## Slamm

Yes there are more:





Red Oak





Big Hickory





Last one for the day.





I'm not going to cut that big red oak to the left it appears to be quite rotten.









The horizon is a little lower now.





All the trees photo'd and then some to add up to 44 were cut with this completely stock 441 CM in under 5 hours of saw time. This saw had a few tenths on the hour meter trying to get the tach to work and cutting a few trees with the kids yesterday. It will be a rare day that a bigger saw or most any saw regardless of make or model, will cut more board footage of big hardwoods (oaks and hickory's) in that amount of time.


----------



## Stihlman441

Great pics and stuff as normal there Sam
Whats with all the Tach wires everywhere ?.
Cheers


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Great pics and stuff as normal there Sam
> Whats with all the Tach wires everywhere ?.
> Cheers



Andrew if you experiment with the location of the mini tach wire over the plastic, like in that groove between the air cover and top plastic it will read the heavy signal, but not some of the small weirdo signals, that said, with how you see it "rigged" with electrical tape, it would work fine about 85=90% of the time today, but if you bogged the saw or made it really work hard at about 9600 rpms it would then jump to 18,600 rpms. I thought I would try this "cheap" method before I commited to completing the project the way I'm very sure it will work, but requires more committed installation. I don't have time to mess with it now, but I will continue with the tape for a few days, as it works very well, only sometimes do I get the 18,000+ rpms in the Max Rpms reading.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

First tree this morning was a nice double cherry tree. Between the double was this big grub, it covers the S in Stihl.





Pretty good Cherry tree for around here.





There were several predicaments to get into today. Finishing up some of the creek trees.





Observe this mess. The big white oak with the saw in it, is leaning toward me. I dropped a sycamore into it trying to get it to push over away from the tree, but it never even moved, LOL. So I had to have the skidder push it over.




This is the mess above.





Here is a video explaining the above situation and then showing the failure of getting the sycamore to push the tree over:




This is the skidder pushing it over:


----------



## Slamm

Some stump:





A Stump





Video of some tree getting pushed over




Stump





More hot stump action.





Here's a little one. Notice that the 28" bar barely met in the middle, you could also notice the machine like precision of the cutting, LOL.





Does the guy have a laser or level or something on his saw??? LOL


----------



## Slamm

Video of tree getting pushed:




A view of 80ish logs, and what the farmer created to get across the creek.





Stump.





Some decent log going to the landing.





Here's a cable skidders dream, LOL.





Big Stump.





This is what professional pasture logging is all about, LOL. These trees suck.


----------



## Slamm

Here's a not so good situation.

Both red oaks are standing dead with dead branches and vines all in them, to fall on your head.









I decided to drop the far one down the hill and leave the uphill one, as it was too far gone and was going to wipe out several good little white oaks and hickory's.
Here is a good situation for a combo forestry helmet. when walking that downed log, I popped off my muffs so that I could hear if an overhead branch or vine from the other dead twin, was cracking or breaking off. This is something that ear plug wearers can't or don't due, is use their hearing when they could.





Its handy to be able to see and possibly hear the branch that might be coming at you. Had to walk past it going out.





Thats it for today,

Sam


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## Metals406

This would have been a good one to use a swing-dutchman on!


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## Stihlman441

Great stuff again Sam and thanks for taking the time keep it coming.
All this with a stock 441RCMTronic and 28'' bar i wonder if it will catch on,I'm thinking every day is a pleasure with that combination.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Great stuff again Sam and thanks for taking the time keep it coming.
> All this with a stock 441RCMTronic and 28'' bar i wonder if it will catch on,I'm thinking every day is a pleasure with that combination.



I truly love this saw just in stock form. If I had started logging with it, I would have no thought of why someone would modd a saw. It doesn't have the higher horsepower that say my modded 441's have, but it has more grunt at the lower rpms or better stated it gets really pissed off and tries its hardest to not bog down. Its like it gets mad or something, and that something is the advancing of the timing (I'd suspect). Menno is going to start cutting in the next few days, so he's going to get this saw and I'm going to run the other new one but I'm going to put the Modded Muffler on it right away (At this point I haven't started it yet).

I haven't calibrated this stock saw that I've been runnning. It seems to run a little leaner than my other one, but I wanted to run it a little so I could get a baseline in my head and then calibrate it. I might do that tomorrow. I have 8.? hours on it, but the wire was loose for the last half of the day so I don't know how many hours didn't get recorded, maybe just 1-2. Who knew that tape wouldn't last on a saw in logging use, LOL. I almost smashed the saw today in the morning. Had a little 18"er, go sideways from where I wanted it to go and I pulled until the whole tree spun a little and a corner caught and lifted the tree off of the Lite bar, I bent that Lite bar into a C and it just popped right back. Menno saw the whole thing, the tree was at a 45 degree angle over my back, coming down, but it all worked out alright, was topping it seconds later, never even turned the saw off. It was just one of those morning that you have to work through, LOL.

Back to the Lite bar, I have abused this bar so bad with all of the limbing we have to do on these big pasture trees that its sick, and there isn't anything wrong with it. The skidder even hit it and bent it over quite a ways and it just went back straight, I honestly think they straighten themselves out better than a regular ES bar.

Its hard for me to get a feel for the fuel useage, because one tree is 18"es and the next one I can barely reach with a 28" bar on both sides. I need to go to gallons per running hour, but I just don't have time to record anything. Menno is breathing down my back with the the skidder, and can barely get any photos taken. My kids like the photos and videos of what I do.

I'm interested in what the Muffler Modd does for it, and then I'm going to get a bunch of 100 LL AV gas and see what that does. The saw has been going around these oaks at about 10,200-11,000 rpms with a good load and chips are flying out, chain filed to FOP standards with a little downward pressure. With Hickory and duller chain it was going around them at 9,600 give or take, with the bar buried, and I'm usually always dawged in, with even pressure, the saw rarely bogs to a stop due to miss handling or heavy hands, I'd say its on par with a stock 660 in available torque for face cuts and starting cuts, it just doesn't want to bog down, sharp or dull semi chisel it just keeps pulling.

I wish I could get some time to port one. I'd like to make one like the 441 that Menno's older brother has, I think that is about the fastest one that Terry did, he opened some things up on it, but as you have seen its not even high compression, he just knew how to get air through an engine. I know that the owner Mervin who has run all of mine and Bert who has one and just sold it for a good profit and will get another one, they think that Mervins is the fastest, and I don't doubt it. Menno cut a lot of firewood with his brothers saw and then came down here and run my Painted saw which is a good runner, and he thinks that Mervins will spank it. Mervin said I could have it for a few weeks and check the numbers on it, but make an Mtronic version, I know what Terry did to make it run richer like yours so we'll see, but I just don't have the time now.

Ran the little 261 cutting myself out of a few pinches and limbing a little. Its a good little saw, its not broke in and I've got it too rich today and didn't feel like messing with it. I'm all for the Mtronic version of that model to come out, LOL.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Metals406 said:


> This would have been a good one to use a swing-dutchman on!



I use those a fair bit, but this one was leaning too hard into the creek and it was limb locked with that black oak on the right side. I knew it was goin to be a problem so I shoved that sycamore into it, as I was cutting up the creek, because I 80% knew that the little sycamore wasn't going to go through the white oaks crown and then I would use it to push the white oak, as you can see in the first video, it didn't even budge that white oak. I really didn't want that white oak in the creek, because then I have to clean it up, that would take 1/2 hour or better, so I just used that big yellow "wedge" that is 4wheel drive, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks Sam all sounds good, i will be in contact soon.


----------



## Slamm

Well here is the #2 Mtronic it started life with a modded muffler and ran for about 1.+ hours today and cut 15 trees this afternoon, before I ripped the drivers off of about 6 links and went out of the woods to help buck up and stack logs.
Here is a photo of the hour meter when it only have .1 hours on it and had only run for .1 hr at the shop.





I cut a little bigger soft maple with it for its first tree and this white oak was its second tree.





Did I mention that some of the stumps get cut low to the ground? This is its second white oak.





There are 4 trees in this mess. I'm standing on a dozer pile up against the edge of the pasture, and I dropped several out this way, then some extra's fell off of that bashed big one.










Here is a big gum tree. The thing is super tall.





I got in a shorter version of my longer Fiskar's Chopping Axe and it is a winner, I love that thing.

I put the modded muffler that I made in the machine shop and it has a large hole in it, equal to the exhaust port size or bigger. I started the saw at the shop and let it run for a little while .1 hr, messing with the tach wire location. Then drove to the job site and went to the woods, I got off the ATV and started walking to the first tree and didn't like how it was idling and sometimes it would die when I throttled it. So I just yanked the bar off and let it sit in the leaves for one minute doing the calibration thing and put the bar on and went to cutting. It ran great. The muffler modd gives it about 500-1000 more rpm's this saw on its first tank was cutting more in the 11,000 rpm range or higher than the Mtronic with the stock muffler, the midrange torque is just amazing. In 15 trees I might have bogged the saw maybe 3 times, which is better than the stock muffler, which is better than my modded, regular 441's. The modded, regular 441's seem to be able to hold higher rpms in the cut do to portwork, but don't have the lower range that makes these stock or muffler modded Mtronic saws so easy to love to use. I can't emphasize enough, if you gave me a 660, I would ask that you just sell it for me and give me a wrapped 441 Mtronic and you keep the several hundred dollars in change, they are that amazing. John was running his modded 441' Mtronic today, and he said it was in the 12,000rpm range and that seems about right.

Here is my take on it, 28" bar in hardwoods, in the cut rpms:
So stock form is about 10,000+ with stock muffler.
Stock with Muffler Modd 10,500-11,000+ with duh, modded muffler (and that is a first few tanks, so its not broken in yet).
Modded/ported 441 Mtronic 12,000

Here was some of it about 40 of the 200 trees worth.





Later,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Thank you Sam for your report,would you say the muff modded one runs rich enough ?.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Thank you Sam for your report,would you say the muff modded one runs rich enough ?.



Oh yes, it snaps, crackles and pops in the cut if you are just standing on the powerhead and then it sometimes manages to get some growling in. It truly is the most fun saw I have ever "worked with". It starts (pulls) about as easy as the 261, LOL, and when you have to start and stop and start and stop a saw as much as we do in a day that means a lot, it could be 40-100 times per day. I have fought hopped up 460's and 660's and wow, they are a workout just getting them started when you add up all the effort just in that portion of the job each day, these 441 CM's feel like you are pulling the rope just to say that you did, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Bringing one around, and making it fall where it doesn't really want to go.





The scrench is pointing where it really wanted to go. The end of the file is where I undercut it to get the tree to start to swing around. Once you get them heading around you can really set them anywhere you want them to go.







This below stump shows how you can very quickly cut a tree down without ever "bore cutting", yet you can still have the "safety" of some holding wood in the back for a more controlled release time. I usually cut this way, with one handed "dawged in" cuts, and taking a knee to rest before the limbing and topping starts.

The blue file is the represents the chainsaw, and shows where I "swing" cut it through most of the way.





This shows the final cutting of that 1st swing through to the make the hinge. 





This shows the saw in its almost final position for the 2nd swing through, while also gutting out the center of the hinge at the same time. When you get to really know where your tip is, it isn't uncommon for me to make the hinge with the tip while I'm standing on the back side of the tree.





Billy skidding a tree to the landing.





Some stump, where Menno and I took a break for lunch.


----------



## Slamm

Here is some of the excavator work. He would pull down the limbs, but this is a tree we wanted to cut, so now I am cutting it and watching above. It went over just fine.





Just some springpole. Here I'm showing where to cut it to releave the pressure. I then went back and finished it and flush cut it so the skidder won't hit it and it makes the woods look a lot better afterwards.





Here Menno hung this tree up about 20' in the air and limb locked it in another tree. The skidder couldn't pull it out but the butt, so I climbed up the trunk and made this "hinge" cut so that the skidder can break it free, but it is still strong enough for me to be standing up there. The scrench shows the direction of the cable pull. This photo is straight down at the top, which is about 20' in the air. I put this in here in case someone is ever in this situation and doesn't know how to get it down without completely cutting it.





Here is Menno finishing off some tree that I started, as he was fueling up and I was waiting for him, so I just bore cut it and left some holding wood and he's going to drop it and top it and we will march along the hillside.




Later,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks for the felling tips,interesting.:msp_smile:


----------



## Slamm

Well its coming together to get the wood down the road.





This morning, the sun was coming up as I waited for the trucks to come get the first loads of grade red oak, white oak and hickory.





Trucks arrived a little later.





Getting loaded.





Loading good logs.





Well and then there is the tie and blocking logs. This is the 3rd load.






Then I went over to Menno and we started burying the skidder in logs. Here is whats left of the heart of a nice red oak. I buried my boot in chips.





Here is my logging dog, he knows where to be when the trees start to fall. He's pretty good at keeping track of whats going on. He would check on me and Menno throughout the day and follow the skidder around.


----------



## Slamm

Rachet takes a look at the hot topping action that is about to occur. Trees like this just suck, but we are getting a lot of them on this job, over mature trees in scrub brush and around pastures. They have footage in them though.





Overseer of the cutting operation.





Yeah, do you see the log chain that has grown into the tree trunk and one of the twins.





Stump action.





More Stump action.





4th Tie and blocking load.





The boys just got in from skidding in the dark and fueling up everything and greasing the skidder and skid steer, its suppose to rain tomorrow, so we might just go cut or install hardwood floor ...... not sure yet.

Later,

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

So in the end is it werth doing the muff mod on a stock 441C or are you still going to be better of with a ported one ?.:msp_smile:


----------



## Slamm

I can tell you that a muffler modded 441cm is more of what I'm looking at, using. Last two days, I have let Menno use the muffler modded one and I have been using the stock, and if he leaves it sit for a second, I go steal it back, LOL, and its not just because its very loud, it is a good percent more powerful or bog proof, and holds 500-1000 rpms higher with the 28" bar buried in oak gettinng pulled on. The more power is nice for rough handling and keeps the chain spinning through big loads of chips.

As to the ported one, I would rather use this muffler modded 441 CM than my ported regular 441's, but I haven't run a modded 441 CM, so I will possibly remedy that problem in the next couple of months, but not sure its worth $300, but might be.

I know that the muffler modded 441 CM is way, way more saw than 98% of the people on this site will ever need, it blows a 660 out of the water for cutting production and weight and handling and filtration and fuel mileage and easy starting and its hundreds cheaper. Whats not to like?

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks Sam,what i am trying to work out is if a stock muff modded 441C with a 20'' bar going to be good enough for me to use blocking Ozzy hard woods.I normally use a stock 460 which is just enough when comes to power,torque but as we know the 441Cs advantages sh_t all over the old school saws.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Thanks Sam,what i am trying to work out is if a stock muff modded 441C with a 20'' bar going to be good enough for me to use blocking Ozzy hard woods.I normally use a stock 460 which is just enough when comes to power,torque but as we know the 441Cs advantages sh_t all over the old school saws.



Andrew, sorry I didn't see your post until now when uploading some pics of work. My thoughts are yes, more power through proper porting is always a nice bonus, I just don't or wouldn't think you will see a major increase in, "in the cut" rpms to justify the cost of the porting, certainly not for a 20" bar.

Soon you will know yourself, as you have a well ported 441 CM, but a muffler modded 441 CM is a heck of a nice saw, as is. We are using ours with a 20" bar for bucking and 28" bar for felling and it just simply rips wood apart. If proper porting would make it more powerful that would be a good thing, is it worth several hundred dollars extra to me to have done .................. uh, well, this is the first saw that has me stalling on that answer, and I'm a big, big advocate for proper porting kinda person. I think the average guy that uses 28" bar or less in typical North American Hardwoods is going to have, to have CAD to justify it, I'm not completely satisfied that from either a warranty or headache and extra money point of view that its worth it. That is just based on in the cut rpms.

John says he's running in the 12K range and some higher with his ported 441 CM in oak, I'm in the 11+K range with a Muffler Modded 441 CM with the 28" dawged in and bar buried in 50" oaks. I think, in my profession I can justify the portwork, for that extra power, as it will pay for itself, that I'm sure of, but I don't see the average Joe, noticing the power much over the simple Muffler Modd and Re-Calibration, and if all they have on the saw is a 20" to 25" bar, the margin gets pretty small.

I want to run my stock and muffler modded 441 CM's for a while and get a feel for them and then port them and see what performance and economic benefits are to be had.

Sam


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks Sam and i hear what you are saying but im all still worried even with a muff modd how it will go in some of owh stupidly hard wood,did you see that vid i did the other day Oak and then Yellowbox thats what im talking about.:rolleyes2:


----------



## Slamm

Been to busy running around keeping trucks sorted out and guys cutting and skidding and remodeling the house to get much photo work done. That said, its been a pretty smooth job, its just down the road from the house, so that has been real nice and quite the pleasure. All indications are that this local job will turn into a few more around here, and I still have the bottom ground jobs up in Illinois to do. This is a good three hour drive difference in weather that at times means if we can't work down here, we can up there, as the weather patterns are different enough to provide some benefit in that aspect of things.

From a cutting/felling point of view its been keeping me and Menno on our toes, I think we have cut 5 different days in 20-35 mile and hour winds and it appears we will be doing it again today. Lets just say, you learn to time your gusts of winds, LOL. From a safety point of view there are some inherent risks with cutting in high winds, but from a production point of view the wind is just another great asset in a toolbag of tricks. We have several different areas where based on wind direction, we used the wind to our advantage to get the trees to go down in the direction we wanted for improved skidding efficiency and it sure beats smacking wedges. So we would or have been purposely cutting in those locations during the high winds and it is sure easier cutting. This western Kentucy timber has been extremely damaged by that ice storm and hurricane Ike 3ish years ago, that being said, I have always figured that 1 in 50 trees was trying to kill me back. This broken topped and dangling branch stuff seems to have cut that ratio in about half give or take, as there sure is a lot more stuff up there that seems to want to fall onto my head, LOL.

Just some trees that are cut down.





This is the 3rd staging area or landing. These piles represent 176 trees cut, there are a few truck loads already gone, but it gives an idea. They are sorted into tie/blocking, grade (white oak, red oak and Hickory) and Veneer White Oak. There are a few piles of culls logs and chunks that I'm just going to load into the dump trailer and take home for firewood cutting.





Just some photos of the truck leaving with logs.

























Sam


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Thanks Sam and i hear what you are saying but im all still worried even with a muff modd how it will go in some of owh stupidly hard wood,did you see that vid i did the other day Oak and then Yellowbox thats what im talking about.:rolleyes2:



Yeah, I saw that video, and all I can say is, I'm glad I don't log in Australia, LOL. I would quit, LOL.

I hate hickory and its not that hard, I think its getting pretty close, but that Yellowbox crap you have in that video was pure hell. If I had to buck that crap up all day, I'd bring a portable DVD player to set up at each cut, as radio earmuffs wouldn't cut it, LOL.

That all said, I think with your choice of 20" bars for the new 441 CM's and a large hole in the muffler and you should be somewhere in that 460 range, as I can't remember how your modded 441 CM did against that 460 you showed. I know our hickory with a 20" bar is not a problem for it, certainly not to the point that I'm wishing I had a different saw in my hands.

Sam


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## logger 12345

i was reading the thread and must say well done on the work,it looks like a nice set up you have and reminds me of myself with my wife as we do all our timber work together too.where i am working now i need to clear a way in to a large woodland,so in time i will be falling the large trees too and taking some machinery also then when needed.

somewhere in the thread i got lost in a lot of strange arguing,maybe just ignore some of it would be the only advice because it would be a shame to see a nice thread going to waste.

my motto is,if you cut safe,get the work done,make some money and the land owner is happy then that's all that really matters,sometimes when i'm cutting trees i try differnt methods and ways which i feel may assist me doing a cut,because at the end
of the day no tree is the same and more often than not you have to use differnt cuts on every tree,if it's working don't change it.

dan


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## 802climber

Finally got together some crappy phone pics of what i've been doing lately. Never seem to be able to get pictures of the best climbing/cutting/stump action.

Pics are of:
Cheesehead country - where the landing is bigger than the woods
Some big hard maple plus mud and manure
Lunchtime stump complete with kicked chain
Big cottonwood takedown I did in the fall


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## 802climber

Too windy to work so just messing around with the cell phone....

Been in some nice big hard maple, also had to fall some JUNK.

Put my 385 thru a coon in a basswood similar to the hollow one in the pic.

Should really be keeping a shotgun in the skidder in these woods. Lots of over-mature HOLLOW stuff...

And lots of blue paint.


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## Slamm

Well yesterday was just one of those days.

First got all dressed up to drop trees complete with "cork" boots and water pack and chaps and helmet and wedge pouch and blah blah, and the log truck shows up, without any fore warning (he's suppose to call or text 30 minutes ahead), we wouldn't have even seen him if Menno hadn't looked back one time before going over a hill on the ATV. So back to the truck to unpack and I go load him.

Get back to skidder and new landing area and the boys have the dashed pulled on the skidder, and no logs on new landing???? The starter switch is broke, so we put the dash back together and hotwire it to get going, will fix it after it quits raining tomorrow. I cut a few trees and Menno cuts a few and the skidder starts blowing real bad black smoke. We had just put a brand new Deere air filter on it that morning, and filled with diesel from different station. I figure it can't be the air filter because its new, and I have had diesel problems 3x's before so I call neighbor, farmer buddy and go get some concentrate that seems to fix the problem pretty quickly, as the skidder won't even pull a hill in 1st gear. I drive 3 miles away and Billy (skidder driver) calls and he's so out of breath I can't understand him, other than all hell has broken loose. Finally I ask is Menno okay and he hands the phone to Menno and get the low down on how one of the batteries exploded, complete with a boom, sparks and fireball, LOL. Nobody was hurt so it was funny as all get out, as Billy stated he spent about .1 seconds trying to get the fire extinguisher out and then just dove off the skidder, LOL. He did kill the engine first, LOL.

Billy ran to Menno, and Menno ran back and put the fire out, it was just the battery burning ...... not the skidder.

So I finish getting diesel treatment as I was closer to the farm, than the skidder and head back to skidder. We investigate the situation and find that somehow one of the battery terminals appears to have jumped up and struck the metal cover lid, or it exploded and then hit the metal lid, either way its welded to the lid right now. Billy said there was a fireball about 3 foot in diameter as the battery lid got blown off the machine, LOL. I asked him if he crapped his pants and he said it was too busy making tracks to stop and poop ........... you would have to know Billy to understand ...... he's only been off the Amish reservation for about 4 months, so hes a little excitable, LOL.

We did take the time to investigate how far or how much distance that Billy covered in his dive out of the cab and it appears to Menno and I, that it could qualify for something more, nearing sustained flight, than just a one time act of springed propulsion, as the scrape marks in the ground are easily 20 feet away from the tire and his earmuffs were 30 feet away, after impact, making it easily the most impressive act of the day, bar none. Billy's later recolletions were that mid-"flight" he actually complitated that the landing might be worse than whatever demise awaited him back at the cab, but he wasn't thinking that when he applied the propulsion force with his legs, LOL.

Here is the battery that exploded.






Note the terminal that has welded itself to the battery lid.





So I apply diesel treatment and Menno goes back to cutting and Billy takes my saw for topping and I get two new batteries. Install batteries and start machine, pull a couple of logs and still black smoke and no power. I ask again did you really, really put that new filter in this morning. Yes, they did. Now bear in mind we swap filters every morning and take one back to the shop or air compressor and blow it out, just this morning I had them actually put a brand new one in the machine. The last logs the day before were pulled with no smoke and full power. Now the engine is running and I open the side panel and take the air cover off and sure enough there is a brand new air filter in there. I pear back to the rubber intake from the air filter to the turbo, its colapsed. I tell Billy to stop engine. I take the second/final little filter out and its covered with black soot. I go get a new one of those out of the equipment trailer, and fixed that problem ....................... I have no idea how the soot got there, its not on the big air filter and everything is sealed up good, but there it is.

Eat lunch, load trucks, talk to a local log buyer and go back to cutting trees, till after dark, Menno was topping in the dark, and I loaded that last log truck with lights on the loader, as it was 90% chance of rain lastnight and its pouring now. So back to remodeling house.

Loaded light in the back bunk because the road is getting really pumpy and trucks are about to get stuck, so light on last bunk all day.





Another one.





One of the reds that fell yesterday, notice the black rings of mineral and damage caused by the cattle. Gotta love pasture timber, LOL.





A big and little double.





While this was an exceptional day, I have found that logging has its ups and downs like anything other endeavor.

Sam


----------



## deye223

HAHAHA sam you a funny bloke i love this thread sorry about the cost but


----------



## lfnh

Got a laugh from your write up of Billy Bailing out, that sure was funny.
Good everyone's ok.

Nice load in last couple of pics.
Thanks for sharing.


----------



## splitpost

did it make a popping noise under revs,sorta like small backfires?,i seen a kenworth cabover suck the intake pipe like that,turned out the pipe was old and needed to be replaced,problem solved,we had a few batteries explode like that too on some old Ford L8000 trucks,we put a piece
of 1/4" rubber sheet on top to stop contact with the lids


----------



## Slamm

splitpost said:


> ,we had a few batteries explode like that too on some old Ford L8000 trucks,we put a piece
> of 1/4" rubber sheet on top to stop contact with the lids



Do you think the battery just exploded or that it hit the lid first and then grounded? In 7 years they have never touched the lid under near flip over angles, and there weren't any bumps or anything where he was at???

I will get them strapped down better and get some rubber over them anyways.

Sam


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## tlandrum

i was setting on my 955l cat track loader one morning and reached over to start it, when i hit the button the explosion underneath me litterally deafend me for about 4 hrs. nothing grounded out on the outside of the battery so it had to of grounded out on the inside. the batteries were wired 24 volt and were about new. you never know when one will blow.


----------



## Slamm

tlandrum said:


> i was setting on my 955l cat track loader one morning and reached over to start it, when i hit the button the explosion underneath me litterally deafend me for about 4 hrs. nothing grounded out on the outside of the battery so it had to of grounded out on the inside. the batteries were wired 24 volt and were about new. you never know when one will blow.



Yeah, Menno was running a saw, cutting a top and he heard the boom, but thought someone was shooting at the gun range. Then comes Billy racing over the hill on foot, LOL.

I honestly don't think they grounded out on the lid first and then exploded, I think the battery exploded and then the terminal hit the lid, because there isn't anything Billy was doing in the middle of a flat pasture that I haven't done way worse and Billy drives pretty conservatively, no racing or anything ...... which is good. I still bet he crapped his pants, LOL. There he is just driving through the grass and BOOM and a fireball with the battery lid blown straight off the nose of the skidder right in front of him, LOL, I laugh just thinking about it and him, he already gets so nervous he can't talk worth a crap at mild things, this probably took months off of his life, LOL.

Sam


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## tlandrum

well i didnt blow anything up today but i did absolutely burry my skidder over the axles today. the more i tried to get it out the worse it got. i broke the cable about 10 times before i finally got the skidder out of the mud. funny how when a 30,000 lb skidder sinks in the mud a 3/4 swedged cable wouldnt even begin to move it. my skidder has a 60000lb winch on it and the cable just snapped like dental floss.i was so muddy that i literally had to take all my clothes and put them in the back of the truck for the ride home. luckily i had my bib coveralls in the tool box to put on lol


----------



## mingo

Slamm said:


> Do you think the battery just exploded or that it hit the lid first and then grounded? In 7 years they have never touched the lid under near flip over angles, and there weren't any bumps or anything where he was at???
> 
> I will get them strapped down better and get some rubber over them anyways.
> 
> Sam



Do you think when they had the dash off or the hot wire had anything to do with the battery blowing up?


----------



## drkstaunton

i needed to post this after reading some of the thread,with arguments going on in the thread also,you are very pic happy.

other than that the wood pics and pictures 'on topic' to do with the forum and chainsaws/wood are great,some lovely trees!!


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## Slamm

mingo said:


> Do you think when they had the dash off or the hot wire had anything to do with the battery blowing up?



No, it was just the starter push button that quit working. I just bypassed with a short 6" wire momentarily ..... just like the switch, then hung the wire up on the cage, for possibly later use, LOL, after that, since its a diesel there isn't any electricity running.

Its too wet to work now so I'll fix it later.


Sam


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## Slamm

drkstaunton, thanks .......... now that you have warned me. Could you go back and edit that post to a blank. Thanks, its sorta disturbing. Why you wouldn't just PM your ideas, as appose to put that in out there is sorta well odd.

Sam


----------



## drkstaunton

Slamm said:


> drkstaunton, thanks .......... now that you have warned me. Could you go back and edit that post to a blank. Thanks, its sorta disturbing. Why you wouldn't just PM your ideas, as appose to put that in out there is sorta well odd.
> 
> Sam





done,sorry not to have pm'd you,i was in a hurry. it was just how i felt after reading some bizzare comments on your thread,you seemed to be getting some grief,i have seen it on other forums,you just don't know nor can ever trust people online mate,

all the best
derek


----------



## ChainsawmanXX

Slamm said:


> Bringing one around, and making it fall where it doesn't really want to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The scrench is pointing where it really wanted to go. The end of the file is where I undercut it to get the tree to start to swing around. Once you get them heading around you can really set them anywhere you want them to go.



Would love to see some more of these pictures! And demo's


----------



## Slamm

ChainsawmanXX said:


> Would love to see some more of these pictures! And demo's



I will try to work on getting more photos like this and some video's of how we cut them. While its not the only way by far, I do think that how we cut them is very simple and provides the safety margin of a backstrap, while either not having to bore the tree out or reduce the boring cuts to 50%, which then makes the production difference very marginal, but the safety or control of the tree higher in certain instances.

Sam


----------



## ChainsawmanXX

Slamm said:


> I will try to work on getting more photos like this and some video's of how we cut them. While its not the only way by far, I do think that how we cut them is very simple and provides the safety margin of a backstrap, while either not having to bore the tree out or reduce the boring cuts to 50%, which then makes the production difference very marginal, but the safety or control of the tree higher in certain instances.
> 
> Sam



Im all ears
opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## homelitejim

ChainsawmanXX said:


> Would love to see some more of these pictures! And demo's



Also check out the Soft Dutchman cut for swinging a tree, I tried it with success this last weekend to swing a leaner away from a burning slash pile, it felt like it was going to pinch my bar in the back cut but it was just spinning before breaking the hinge. I wish I would have gotten it on video but it was my first attempt and I usually don't film first attempts. Videos can be seen on youtube on how it is done. It is not a hard cut to make and I got the tree to swing 45*.


----------



## HorseFaller

homelitejim said:


> Also check out the Soft Dutchman cut for swinging a tree, I tried it with success this last weekend to swing a leaner away from a burning slash pile, it felt like it was going to pinch my bar in the back cut but it was just spinning before breaking the hinge. I wish I would have gotten it on video but it was my first attempt and I usually don't film first attempts. Videos can be seen on youtube on how it is done. It is not a hard cut to make and I got the tree to swing 45*.



Search hotsaws101 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvVY5jaY9jg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbN1sKN7IlI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## possumtrapper

Inspiring pix thanks Sam. The way your guys (USA's) meat exports have gone ballistic this year, (up 70%) you will probably see a lot more of this kind of logging work as farmers thin out their woodlands to increase grass production. One thing I noticed recurring in visits to your country was how much wood land (huge) and how few people there seems to be in rural areas. Good to see some real wealth creation kicking in. What are these logs destined to become?


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## Slamm

There are only about 25 veneer logs total on the job, as this was a cattled area, which damages the wood. There was about 30,000 board feet of grade lumber logs, there are still a few to come out, but not much of it will make grade. And then not sure how much in Ties and Blocking logs, hundreds and hundreds, overall I think we are in the 500ish range of trees cut, maybe a little more. We only cut 18" DBH and bigger, and I think we did a good job of not hitting any other little white oaks, red oaks or hickory either with the falling trees or with the skidding, so the landowner should have a nice stand of timber in about 15 years to cut again.

We only have one day of cutting and skidding left, but it is wet so we'll just wait until it dries out a little, just have to see how the weather holds up.

Sam


----------



## ChainsawmanXX

Slamm said:


> There are only about 25 veneer logs total on the job, as this was a cattled area, which damages the wood. There was about 30,000 board feet of grade lumber logs, there are still a few to come out, but not much of it will make grade. And then not sure how much in Ties and Blocking logs, hundreds and hundreds, overall I think we are in the 500ish range of trees cut, maybe a little more. We only cut 18" DBH and bigger, and I think we did a good job of not hitting any other little white oaks, red oaks or hickory either with the falling trees or with the skidding, so the landowner should have a nice stand of timber in about 15 years to cut again.
> 
> We only have one day of cutting and skidding left, but it is wet so we'll just wait until it dries out a little, just have to see how the weather holds up.
> 
> Sam



Sam, Im going to have to applaud you! Iv seen some of the slash and burn methods used in Wester KY and Southern MO. And every time I see it I get alittle sick inside, I know in that woods that they snatched up anything that would bring a buck and now that woods will never be anything. They left the old knotted up, broken down trees as seed trees. Which is fairly idiotic, in my opinion if you leave bad genes in the woods.. Then Bad genes will reproduce. 
Its like if you leave a bunch of retarded birds in one area and they mate.. what will you come up with? More retarded birds LOL.

You do some mighty fine work with that skidder as well. Looking forward to more pictures


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## Slamm

Thank you, sir,

Where we are cutting is fairly public and there are lotsa eyes on it. So far nothing but good comments have been recieved for our efforts.

I too have noticed that the remaining forest/woods/timber around Western Kentucky are mostly crappy looking. I talked to one local log buyer and he says its due to the local pulp plant, which means that every stick 5"+ has some worth. But yes, they due tend to slaughter everything in their path around here.

When I started talking about how we would just take 18-20" and bigger, other local logging types or landowners just looked at us kinda weird. One guy stated we should take everything at 12" on the stump and bigger, and then cut it again in 25 years......... ??????

How crappy would a forest look if you cut every 12" stumped tree in it and bigger, it would look like a windblown cornfield with nothing for the animals or anything to have as a home or us to look at, just a wasteland. I'm not against clearcutting if thats what you gotta due, but it sure looks like crap, and does nothing for the future.

The guy we contract for mostly cuts 18-20" and bigger and I have cut timber for the third time for him in his 32 years of business on the same land, and it was good quality, healthy, fun stuff to cut. The worst timber and most dangerous timber I ever cut was some stuff on a college that was never cut in probably 80 years if ever. The trees were huge, hollow, rotten and there were either 50-60" trees or 10"er's...... and few imbetween. The ash bore had killed a lot of the ash and the tops were just plain deadly. We would cut one tree down and 4 tops would come crashing down. I know one day, Bert, cut over 70 trees and we could only pull out about 50 because the other 20 were bad rotten and worthless.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Well here is the second to last tree of the day and for the whole job. I was skimming the dirt on this side.






Here is the last one of the day and the whole job. We took the time for a little photo opportunity, LOL.
I faced the tree and Menno gutted his side out and then I my side out, then Billy pushed it over with the skidder, to save from a big mess in the pasture.
Menno:





Me:





Billy:





Billy and the 540B with the last log:





We have a lot of log piles laying around. As you can see a bad storm is blowing in just about 1 hour ago. We lack bucking up about 6 logs. The boys are gone until Monday. I'll finish up the sorting and load the trucks and finish cleaning up the jobsite.





Later,

Sam


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## Slamm

Well after last night's complete downpour, there won't be many trucks to get loaded and out, LOL. I think we got over 1" of rain. Have a neighbor that wants some trees cut away from his barn and fence so might go do that.

Sam


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## 802climber

Hey Sam,

What do you think of this hickory? I think I cut it similar to some of your techniques.

Doing some timber stand improvement so just been trying some different stuff.

I used an open face notch. It was a heavy head leaner, and I just barely could have side bored it from the tension side with my 24" bar, but I think the tip would have gotten pinched on the compression side.

So instead I used basically a swing cut with a backstrap. Started on the compression side, cut the back about 1/3 of the way through setting the hinge with the tip of my bar. Put a wedge in this cut. Left a backstrap, bored in the back just forward of the backstrap and cut my way toward the hinge. Once the hinge was set, I clipped the backstrap and tapped the wedge a couple times...


Slightly mismatched backcut, but it layed down exactly where I wanted it to. The reason I did not just cut the back is because it was a heavy leaning hickory and would have just exploded.






The hatchet points toward desired lay, saw wrench points toward natural lean. This will be a decent chunk of firewood.


----------



## 802climber

More timber stand improvement






These are some of my stumps from a few weeks ago, that I saw on my way back through:
I guess I call them faced spur cuts. Makes for some smooth butts because I can stay in the same cut all the way around, using a couple spurs as triggers, but I still have a little "control/safety" from a shallow face cut, hinge and use a little stump shot so i can just zip off the hinge and its like the tree was spur cut.

These face cuts are just accomplished by cutting off the front spur almost completely vertically, side boring to set and hinge and then gutting out the tree like a spur cut.

I don't think this would work on walnut, but it seems to work well on maple and oak...




They are not the prettiest SOBs but they are cut darn close to the ground.
Some very big and top heavy hard maples.


----------



## Slamm

Yeah, looks and sounds about right.

I'm not sure if Swing cutting is actually a correct term for how that cut is made, but that is what I call it, and I have never seen anyone else do it, except Bert and I, its about the fastest way to cut to a tree down and leave a back strap for control or safety of when the tree goes over, as it allows you to use the bottom of the bar for the majority of the cutting and then if you need to, just use the top to clean up the hinge if it is needed. Otherise you just use the tip when swinging through to make the back of the hinge, also as you did, you can gut the center of the hinge out in one smooth motion, while you are still making the back cut at the same time.

I think it warrants saying that this type of cut should not be used by those that don't know where the tip of the bar is at, in a tree, as failure of that knowledge or experience will make for too big of a hinge or too small or simply cutting the hinge completely through, but just as any method, its easy to point out the errors of it, when it being done by the in-experienced.

Hey, when you spur cut those, why not just cut the spur off the stump with the whole tree and then cut the spurs off when the log is laid down. This keeps you from having to cut down the grain which is the hardest (slowest) cut for a saw to make, if you cut them off afterwards then you are noodle cutting and that is very easy and it makes both the stump and the log look much better, just an idea.

Later,

Sam


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## homelitejim

Soon to be firewood.


----------



## 802climber

Yeah, that is a good point. There's something about having the butt ready to go before the tree hits the ground when the skidder is sitting there waiting to hook up to it, but yeah those vertical ripping cuts are slow and a pain like you are saying.

So there is no good reason I double cut the spurs on cuts like in the pics. Just a weird habit I guess. In a true spur cut with no face or hinge those vertical cuts are how I get the tree to commit, and then release the tree from the stump, everything but the spurs is gutted out then I work those slow vertical cuts till its released. That's how I was shown to spur cut.

I would be very happy to hear more ideas, better methods, variations, as I am more used to and prefer falling methods involving a notch.

I was adding the face and thin hinge to a spur cut because the trees were so big and nasty and I wanted more control. I rarely will risk this with fancier oak or walnut. Although it makes them much safer to push over and I think having more control over the tree can be a worthwhile compromise because it minimizes hanging the tree up or laying it down wrong and cuts down on breakage. But they are not my trees. If one is that fancy I will climb it, take it down to the log, and drop the log so it is pretty much guaranteed.


----------



## Slamm

That spur cutting like you are doing it, is how we would cut high dollar walnuts in Iowa, Northern Missouri, Northern Illinois and Eastern Nebraska. Melvin cut every single walnut like that, I spurr cut a lot of the bigger or higher dollar ones that way, but then sometimes I would just face them, gut the center of the hinge while I'm boring it out or as I'm heading across the back of the hinge area, then bore cut out the back and then bring the bar back and zip most of the hinge or all of it, as it was going over.

For high dollar wood, spurr cutting is safest for the wood or log, but there are several times when you spurr cut that you are wondering where the heck is it going to go. As with all things there are trade offs and I'd say that spurr cutting is about the slowest way to cut a tree down but those few extra minutes are sure worth it knowing there is basically no way the butt is going to split up or get damaged. When cable skidding, I always liked when the butts were held up by the spurrs, that was a nice little bonus, especially in snow.

Gotta go,

Sam


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## 802climber

*rained out...*

Very well put.


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## ShaneLogs

We have to keep this thread going! This is probably one of the best threads on AS!


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## Slamm

Here are a couple from today:










We are hand cutting for a guy that has a bell saw but doesn't want it cutting the larger trees These are his machines. 

His machines:















Sam


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## Metals406

That hardwood there sure does have some purdy grain!


----------



## ShaneLogs

Slamm said:


> Here are a couple from today:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are hand cutting for a guy that has a bell saw but doesn't want it cutting the larger trees These are his machines.
> 
> His machines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sam




I like that loader and skidder he has, How has the weather been there ?


Keep up the good work,


Shane


----------



## 056 kid

dieseldirt said:


> Hey Sam,
> 
> What do you think of this hickory? I think I cut it similar to some of your techniques.
> 
> Doing some timber stand improvement so just been trying some different stuff.
> 
> I used an open face notch. It was a heavy head leaner, and I just barely could have side bored it from the tension side with my 24" bar, but I think the tip would have gotten pinched on the compression side.
> 
> So instead I used basically a swing cut with a backstrap. Started on the compression side, cut the back about 1/3 of the way through setting the hinge with the tip of my bar. Put a wedge in this cut. Left a backstrap, bored in the back just forward of the backstrap and cut my way toward the hinge. Once the hinge was set, I clipped the backstrap and tapped the wedge a couple times...
> 
> 
> Slightly mismatched backcut, but it layed down exactly where I wanted it to. The reason I did not just cut the back is because it was a heavy leaning hickory and would have just exploded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hatchet points toward desired lay, saw wrench points toward natural lean. This will be a decent chunk of firewood.



So how in any was is that a swing cut? you had wood on both sides of the stump. . .
And you said you had to tap a wedge a few times for the tree to commit, but then you say you did not saw the back normally because of the lean and that the tree would have exploded. That is a total contradiction. If you had the tree sawed up and had to use a wedge, your standard back cut would have acted in the same way. Not trying to be a #### or anything, but there are better ways to skin a cat. .


----------



## Slamm

Well after over a year, I finally got a chance to cut that swing boom off of the Franklin 170 skidder rearend. It was a pain in the butt as they had two ribs that were hidden under the boom tower so, I had to cut a window into the rear panel and then stick my arm in there with the plasma cutter and cut those ribs, it was hot, smokey and there were many burns, LOL.













Its finally off. My dad is inspecting the work, LOL.




















Gotta be the oddest load I have ever hauled.


----------



## Slamm

This road is going to get a bunch of trees dropped onto it.





Here is a video of Menno (18 yr.s old) cutting a good tree.




Menno and that tree.





Here is one of mine.





Here is a little one, LOL.


----------



## Slamm

Here is another photo of that little one. The saw is a 441 CM with a 28" Lite ES bar. I'm 27 feet away from that saw in this photo.





Here is a big white oak that I cut.





The high stump is to get over the wire that I saw in the side, but the wire was shallow, as it didn't turn the wood blue.





Here is a big worthless red oak that went over.









Thats it for today.

Sam


----------



## Metals406

Looks like you're in the juice! Them are some nice sticks.


----------



## Stihlman441

Them there is some good looking trees mate.


----------



## stihl 440

056 kid said:


> So how in any was is that a swing cut? you had wood on both sides of the stump. . .
> And you said you had to tap a wedge a few times for the tree to commit, but then you say you did not saw the back normally because of the lean and that the tree would have exploded. That is a total contradiction. If you had the tree sawed up and had to use a wedge, your standard back cut would have acted in the same way. Not trying to be a #### or anything, but there are better ways to skin a cat. .



Thats not a swing cut by no means...but it looks to me like he was trying to do a heart cut...like the stump in my first picture. If the tree in his pic had head lean there should have been no need for a wedge. Trees in these pics are poplar..the second tree is double bored.View attachment 235868
View attachment 235869
View attachment 235870
View attachment 235871


----------



## 802climber

056 kid:

Right. The backcut would have acted the same way ONCE IT WAS SAWED UP.

What about heavy head lean PLUS falling away from lean.... Could have straight back cut but was just messing around with some way to leave a backstrap without side boring and pinching on such a small tree.... Please advise.

Even if I had straight back cut I would have cut the compression side first and tapped a wedge in there because there was quite a bit of compression on that side of the back cut.

I used a wedge to make it commit toward where I had it notched because it really wanted to go the way it was leaning. OK I really just used it because it was a pretty shade of orange! :msp_w00t:    

I am curious though WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A SWING CUT ? SOMEBODY PLEASE.


----------



## 802climber

stihl 440 said:


> Thats not a swing cut by no means...but it looks to me like he was trying to do a heart cut...like the stump in my first picture. If the tree in his pic had head lean there should have been no need for a wedge. Trees in these pics are poplar..the second tree is double bored.



Trying?

It sounds like I was using a wedge to hold the kerf open not to knock the tree over. I probably misspoke in my excitement from dropping such a big one!!

I thought a swing cut was cutting one side of the backcut (boring or not) and then swinging all the way around. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong which I clearly am.


----------



## 802climber

stihl 440 said:


> If the tree in his pic had head lean there should have been no need for a wedge.



What about to help me or make me feel good while I change the direction of fall? And did I mention very heavy head lean. And not cutting poplar.


----------



## stihl 440

dieseldirt said:


> Trying?
> 
> It sounds like I was using a wedge to hold the kerf open not to knock the tree over. I probably misspoke in my excitement from dropping such a big one!!
> 
> I thought a swing cut was cutting one side of the backcut (boring or not) and then swinging all the way around. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong which I clearly am.



A swing cut is cutting one side of the hinge off on a tree to get it to "swing" around into where you want it to lay...there are many different swing cuts as well.


----------



## stihl 440

dieseldirt said:


> What about to help me or make me feel good while I change the direction of fall? And did I mention very heavy head lean. And not cutting poplar.



Species doesnt really matter...what exactly are you wanting to know about changing the direction?


----------



## 802climber

I think I found the answers I'm looking for:

How To: The Swing Cut - YouTube


----------



## Metals406

Here are two variations of a swing technique, although there are many. This particular faller has years of experience, and it shows.

As with all advanced felling techniques, you take your own life in your hands, and can easily die, by attempting them.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tbN1sKN7IlI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uvVY5jaY9jg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## bitzer

Sam- Nice sticks! Did you dutch one or am I just seeing things? 

I tell ya I cut two jobs with super low stumps and deceided nuts to that. Powerhead height or whatever was necessary and trees that would have taken 2-3 minutes to lay out I was putting on the ground in more like 1-2. But that horse has been beaten before. Nice pics as usual though man! Your jobs tend to look like mine. Wood, terrain, and such. 

As for swingin!- 


















Yeah I'm an #######! I couldn't resist. 

There are many ways to deal with lean- with and without boring. Depth/type of face, snipes, dutchmans, etc and so on and so forth. 

View attachment 236105

View attachment 236102

View attachment 236103


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## Axlerod74

I really liked this thread. Haven't seen any new posts here in a while. Slam, you must be hard at it! Loved the videos too.


----------



## Slamm

Well now I've stepped into Urban logging, LOL. Got a call from a friends son that needed some trees cut off of a lot next to a cemetary and church and pretty obvious from the road. That little job has now turned into about 12 more really nice jobs. So I'm moving at least one grapple skidder from the wet river bottom's job and going to work on these when I get the chance.















You can see in the back ground the last big tree that is leaning to the left with all of the branches to the left and over the nieghbor's place. I cut 5 bigger trees like this down and pushed them over with the skidder. They had to fall just right because there were water spigots, sewer and gas lines sticking up in several other directions that I couldn't hit.










Here is the firewood crew. They are two older brothers and they have moved a lot of wood with a little trailer, wood splitter, wild thing and some little plastic yellow and black chainsaw. The one is the father in law and they cut up the mess for firewood and I help them out by pushing up the left overs with the skidder or skid loader.





The landowner got some pretty steep quotes to cut all the trees down from some tree service types. Several of these trees were really leaning onto the neighbor's land, but they all went over just fine.
441 CM and a big red oak, I left a little more holding wood on the top side then I needed, but its better finding out you had more than enough, then finding out that you needed more, LOL.


----------



## Slamm

For what its worth here is the stump to that red oak. The saw is a 441 CM with a 28" ES Light Bar and Full Skip Semi Chisel Stihl Chain.





Here it is cleaned up:





Here is the first pine tree I ever cut down, that I can think of. In honor of the PNW, I even used a humbolt and high stumped it, LOL.





Here is the 2nd pine I ever cut. These things are a joke, they cut like butter and don't weigh anything.




Here is that pine or another one going to the landing.





This cherry bark oak did clean up and made two grade logs and some tie logs.









Hard maple.


----------



## Stihlman441

Looks like ya having fun there Sam,ya them Pines are easy but the sap i dont like sticky crap.


----------



## Slamm

Some rotten poplar tree:





Some short hickory stump, then cut the rot off to make a clean butt log:





Some photo of the lot, at this point all but the elm by the "dead" power line by the road are down and into logs.





Here is another pine. I cut about 7 this size.





Start of the landing





Here are the boys, 18 and 12 bucking up the logs. I'm sorting pine, grade and blocking into piles.





Here Karen is sorting logs, and boys are bucking up. The 18 year old nephew is 6' 7" and is by the skid loader and the 12 year old, son Colton, is bucking up grade ash towards the right far away with a 261.





Later,

Sam


----------



## gcdible1

Nice work as always Slamm. Sure looks like it made 4 some decent wood. Do you sell to the mill or market it for the owner, or does it just depend on the job? I would think that would be a factor in bidding for you. But some probably just consider it a bonus.


----------



## Slamm

gcdible1 said:


> Nice work as always Slamm. Sure looks like it made 4 some decent wood. Do you sell to the mill or market it for the owner, or does it just depend on the job? I would think that would be a factor in bidding for you. But some probably just consider it a bonus.



This job I'm selling on percentage plus landowner said to take a cut for cleaning up the lot. I also have to do some dirt work for him because a mobile home is getting placed on this lot so I have to do some leveling of the pad area.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

This job is an acre lot with 14 acres behind it of decent hill timber.

The grade ash, oak and poplar is going to one place, hickory and cherry to another and blocking to another place.

The pine is likely just going to get shaved for horse bedding. There was just 7-8 trees of pine so that at least can get used, instead of burned in the piles.

The firewood is being ate up by the local friends of the landowner's father in law, they are such a good group that I started pulling out tops from the woods for them to cut up. All in all its been a fun low key job. Karen's 18 year old nephew hasn't really ever worked a day in his life so this summer has been literally life changing for him. Hes driving trucks and trailers, skidders, skid loaders, saws and all kinds of construction work in addition to the logging. I hate rookies and he gets his rear chewed on constantly but he is making huge strides towards growing up and being self sufficient. His whole attitude towards life is changed to one of self sufficiency and that he can and will do things himself instead of thinking others will do it for him.

It rained pretty good last night and this morning so I'm working on some estimates for another line of work, but I'm going to go finish cutting the last 30-50 trees on the back 14 acres.

I was suppose to start cutting on a 67 acre farm that is mostly field edges and some great hill timber, but that is postponed because, Bert (great cutter) is working on the railroad and didn't get laid off like he thought he was going to, and I have too much other better paying work to screw with it. The bottoms jobs got too muddy to work anymore, have a few hundred more acres of that to cut and skid. It looks like this now.









Saws are doing great. I think the 361 has an air leak or something it just revs at idle and there isn't any tuning it out, so its out of commision until I can get that sorted out, Karen and Colton (12) is the only ones that use it, but Colton is better sized to the 261 and Karen just wants to run the 441 Painted saw or the 441 CM's.

Bert came and cut on his vacation for a few days with a modded 660 that he bought and that lasted for 1/2 a day and he was back to the modded 441's and 441 CM's and just doesn't see the point in using 90cc saws anymore for 28" bars, LOL.

Sam


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## 385XP

Slamm said:


> This job is an acre lot with 14 acres behind it of decent hill timber.
> 
> The grade ash, oak and poplar is going to one place, hickory and cherry to another and blocking to another place.
> 
> The pine is likely just going to get shaved for horse bedding. There was just 7-8 trees of pine so that at least can get used, instead of burned in the piles.
> 
> The firewood is being ate up by the local friends of the landowner's father in law, they are such a good group that I started pulling out tops from the woods for them to cut up. All in all its been a fun low key job. Karen's 18 year old nephew hasn't really ever worked a day in his life so this summer has been literally life changing for him. Hes driving trucks and trailers, skidders, skid loaders, saws and all kinds of construction work in addition to the logging. I hate rookies and he gets his rear chewed on constantly but he is making huge strides towards growing up and being self sufficient. His whole attitude towards life is changed to one of self sufficiency and that he can and will do things himself instead of thinking others will do it for him.
> 
> It rained pretty good last night and this morning so I'm working on some estimates for another line of work, but I'm going to go finish cutting the last 30-50 trees on the back 14 acres.
> 
> I was suppose to start cutting on a 67 acre farm that is mostly field edges and some great hill timber, but that is postponed because, Bert (great cutter) is working on the railroad and didn't get laid off like he thought he was going to, and I have too much other better paying work to screw with it. The bottoms jobs got too muddy to work anymore, have a few hundred more acres of that to cut and skid. It looks like this now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saws are doing great. I think the 361 has an air leak or something it just revs at idle and there isn't any tuning it out, so its out of commision until I can get that sorted out, Karen and Colton (12) is the only ones that use it, but Colton is better sized to the 261 and Karen just wants to run the 441 Painted saw or the 441 CM's.
> 
> Bert came and cut on his vacation for a few days with a modded 660 that he bought and that lasted for 1/2 a day and he was back to the modded 441's and 441 CM's and just doesn't see the point in using 90cc saws anymore for 28" bars, LOL.
> 
> Sam



How those 441 cm compare to the 460 muffler modded vs muffler modded. I have a 576 auto tune husky and ive been using alot lately .I like it alot compared to the 460 s i have. i hardly use my 460 s 660s or 390 huskys anymore.


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## Slamm

385XP said:


> How those 441 cm compare to the 460 muffler modded vs muffler modded. I have a 576 auto tune husky and ive been using alot lately .I like it alot compared to the 460 s i have. i hardly use my 460 s 660s or 390 huskys anymore.



I don't know, the last 460 I ran was when I ran another guy's stock and ported 460 and they weren't that much more powerful than a mildly ported 441 and got horrible fuel mileage and had bad AV and air filter cleaning everyday, so I'm done with 460. Not saying they are a bad saw, but their time is over from a technological point of view.

In my opinion the 441 CM Muffler Modded is just a pure pleasure to work with, women and children can start them and while they may be a second or more slower in a full 28" bar of cutting, you will never notice it in the woods, as there are always vines to trip over and other such things that take up more than such minor time frames. That said, its not that much slower if it is in the first place, and it is a very comfortable saw to use, and therefore you can and will cut much longer than you will a 660 or 460.

I have found the 441 platform to be tougher than the 460/660 rubber mounts, I have personally broken those rubber mounts with my hands and abuse pulling on the saw ........... to this date the only thing that has ever broken a 441 is trees falling on them. My first 441 was mildly ported and drank a large slug of water the day before I went over to Wiggleworth house and it never did run right from that date forward and had to end up putting a new carb on it, and I had a big bore kit that was ported run for 2 days of logging and then blew the top of the piston off. In my opinion none of those issues are the fault of the saw. Therefore in 5ish years of owning upwards of 6-8 and selling off 20 more, I don't know of one failure to run with them, and the warranty is in my name on most of those saws, so if there is an issue, I would know about it. I get no calls. The Stihl dealers that I have talked to about them say they sell them and then never hear from the operator again, because they don't have any issues with them.

The 441 CM is the same platform but has some computer brain thingy and it has performed flawlessly for me. Starts very easy usually 2 pulls is the max when cold and 1 pull all day long after that. When or if you run them out of gas, just put them on choke and 1 pull and let idle for 5 seconds while walking to the tree and they will keep on running, no more 20 pulls just to get it going again.

When I run a 441 CM with a muffler modd, I don't really care if porting could make them faster, I'm just really happy with them as is. I'm not against porting them and I will eventually when I can spare the time from them, but they are fast enough that I don't need faster, to make my money. Its like knowing the 461 is coming and it can be faster, but we know its not more comfortable to operate and it doesn't have Mtronic so I don't really care about that 461. Speed is only one "postive" going for that model, the 441 CM is no slouch in the speed and power department and has several other advantages that save time and effort daily.

Sam


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## Slamm

Here are a few stumps that I made today.

Decent Cherry tree, has a few issues with the grain, but should be one nice grade log.






Low stump





Low stump





Had to cut this one higher, because someone had wrapped woven wire around the base and I couldn't get it kicked down all the way.





Low hickory. I hate hickory, like cutting bundled T-posts.





This big, ugly red oak had wire in it ........... I didn't see it until I had already cut a face much lower on the other side.









Here is another nice red oak.


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## tilenick

I do love it when this thread comes up to the top. It makes for some great reading I only get to cut real wood about two times a year and its my favorite "vacation". Your job looks like great fun, thanks for sharing again.
Nick.


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## 385XP

Slamm said:


> I don't know, the last 460 I ran was when I ran another guy's stock and ported 460 and they weren't that much more powerful than a mildly ported 441 and got horrible fuel mileage and had bad AV and air filter cleaning everyday, so I'm done with 460. Not saying they are a bad saw, but their time is over from a technological point of view.
> 
> In my opinion the 441 CM Muffler Modded is just a pure pleasure to work with, women and children can start them and while they may be a second or more slower in a full 28" bar of cutting, you will never notice it in the woods, as there are always vines to trip over and other such things that take up more than such minor time frames. That said, its not that much slower if it is in the first place, and it is a very comfortable saw to use, and therefore you can and will cut much longer than you will a 660 or 460.
> 
> I have found the 441 platform to be tougher than the 460/660 rubber mounts, I have personally broken those rubber mounts with my hands and abuse pulling on the saw ........... to this date the only thing that has ever broken a 441 is trees falling on them. My first 441 was mildly ported and drank a large slug of water the day before I went over to Wiggleworth house and it never did run right from that date forward and had to end up putting a new carb on it, and I had a big bore kit that was ported run for 2 days of logging and then blew the top of the piston off. In my opinion none of those issues are the fault of the saw. Therefore in 5ish years of owning upwards of 6-8 and selling off 20 more, I don't know of one failure to run with them, and the warranty is in my name on most of those saws, so if there is an issue, I would know about it. I get no calls. The Stihl dealers that I have talked to about them say they sell them and then never hear from the operator again, because they don't have any issues with them.
> 
> The 441 CM is the same platform but has some computer brain thingy and it has performed flawlessly for me. Starts very easy usually 2 pulls is the max when cold and 1 pull all day long after that. When or if you run them out of gas, just put them on choke and 1 pull and let idle for 5 seconds while walking to the tree and they will keep on running, no more 20 pulls just to get it going again.
> 
> When I run a 441 CM with a muffler modd, I don't really care if porting could make them faster, I'm just really happy with them as is. I'm not against porting them and I will eventually when I can spare the time from them, but they are fast enough that I don't need faster, to make my money. Its like knowing the 461 is coming and it can be faster, but we know its not more comfortable to operate and it doesn't have Mtronic so I don't really care about that 461. Speed is only one "postive" going for that model, the 441 CM is no slouch in the speed and power department and has several other advantages that save time and effort daily.
> 
> Sam


thamks sam thats what i was wondering.seems too be about how the 576 autotune is really works good


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## Slamm

This is a post for the rookie ......... God help him. I try to teach them through Osmosis, but after some time you just have to let them do it themselves. Its painful to watch them and be around them, but if you don't take the time to show them, you won't have any replacements.

First Gun Cut.





First Face Cut.





First Bore Cut ........ on a nice grade ash that was leaning pretty good to boot.





Happy fella ........... he is happy inside, LOL.


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## deye223

sam you've been using the 28" ES lite bar for a long time how do they hold up 

compared to the standard ES bar for durability especially in the rails 

D


----------



## Slamm

deye223 said:


> sam you've been using the 28" ES lite bar for a long time how do they hold up
> 
> compared to the standard ES bar for durability especially in the rails
> 
> D



Funny you ask ........... I finally blew up a tip on one. Its only the first or second Stihl Tip that I have destroyed, and it wasn't really its fault. I had taken the rakers down just an extra swipe, because I was just cutting red oak and poplar trees which cut like butter and then I came to a nice leaning hickory and for the life of me, I couldn't get the bore to start right, basically the tip just got its guts rattled out, LOL.

That is just a fail of me more than the product, but its just a tip and not really related to the "Light" aspect of the bar. So that said, the rails are as hard if not harder than standard Stihl rails and have great life. I think I've only used 4 bars to date and have a lot of wood cut with them, around 300,000 board feet or more and all that has happened is two have had their rails closed by Chainbar.com and these next two are getting close to needing the rails closed and I just blew up a tip ....... thats pretty cheap for that amount of wood cut. All of them have the sides caved in from getting squished by fat trees sitting on them or getting pinched. I bent one pretty bad an sent it to Chainbar.com to get straighted at the time I sent those two in to get rails closed. I mean it was bent like a banana and twisted, when a tree sat and then went the complete wrong way.

Long and short of it for me is, things have gone terribly wrong is you see me in the woods with a normal, heavy bar of any brand and not a Stihl ES Light. For a cutter and felling trees, there isn't anything else you can bolt onto a saw that helps put more wood on the ground than a Stihl ES Light Bar.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Should include the truck in the photo's every now and then, 288,000 miles.





I love Poplar Trees, several grade logs per tree and easy to cut, and they do what you tell them to do.





This is from the top of that last stump. Its a long tree.





Hard leaning Red Oak.





Clean Bore Cut that Red Oak. (this ES Light Bar tip is going to die in about 20 trees after this photo)





Poplar that had two clean parts to it. The lower portion was obviously hollow, made for getting it down faster, LOL.





Yum, Yum Poplar.


----------



## Slamm

(Notice the ES Light Bar and saw are different in the next photos than the one that I blew the tip on earlier sometime today)

If I had cheerleaders in the woods with me, they would have been cheering on this one.
I got a chicken hearted sycamore to swing from where the wedge is pointed to the property line in orange tape and it was leaning hard with a typical banana bow over that flagged line. I bumped it around 5 times before I set it down there on cue.





Sycamores are kinda hard to get to do much because they just break off and have little integrity. I would have used the skidder, but it rained and it was too wet to run machines today, so I just cut.





From the top of the stump.





A typical easy poplar.





This poplar was much easier to swing around off the property line. The wedge is pointing to where the lean was, and obviously I got it to go the other direction, its not 180 degrees, but it was pretty decent. I was showing the nephew what can be done without machines if you have some know how and a little time.


----------



## Slamm

Here are a couple of crappy trees I cut for charity for a graveyard nearby.
Hollow, heavy leaning red oak with all of the branches on one side.





Big Oak. I have a 6 minute video of cutting it down, but I can't get it to upload. Its not very exciting.





Karen, dragging out one of the 265 trees we pulled out in 3 days, 96 of them were between 3/4's and 1 mile away from the landing.





Here I was staging them with the CAT518 Swing Boom for the 540B Grapple to shuttle the long distance to the landing. Obviously most of them were gone by the time I figured I'd take a photo.





A big red oak.





Here are all of the toys in one spot.


----------



## Slamm

Equipment:





A few neat photos here, there are 265 trees in these photos and they will likely average in the 400 board foot range:















This is tonight, we were marking up the grade and mat logs and cutting limbs and knots off.





Sam


----------



## tilenick

That's some strong work Sam.


----------



## Slamm

Thanks, I think this is some of the highest board footage per acre that I think we've ever been in. Still have more to pull out, but we're going to get some of those logs on the trucks and get them out of here to make room. The one cutter is cutting at another job and next week we'll likely start another guy cutting on another small tract to get them on the ground and ready for the skidders.

Sam


----------



## tilenick

I like the equipment. I have run some in my past jobs, but not logging. The biggest was occasionally a big John Deere articulated loader to load a tub grinder at my old landscaping job as well as a 2950 JD with a post driver on it along with other equipment for landscaping. Now I do tile work for a living and i only get to "log" for firewood a couple times a year for my grandma. I'm jealous. Keep up the good posting and the good work.
Nick.


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## Stihlman441

Nice work and post again Sam,thanks for sharing.


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice work and post again Sam,thanks for sharing.



Thanks Andrew, we are trying to get caught up on a lot of work that didn't get done this summer due to other none wood related endeavors, but now we're back to logging and trying to get caught up. It got too wet at the bottom land job so that one still isn't done with more acreage under contract behind the next landowner.

Here is today's photo's.

Did a combination of chainsaw and hydraulic buck saw "bucking" today. Karen ran the 441CM with a 28" bar and I ran the Prentice 280 with a CTR 42IP Buck Saw. Colton ran the CAT 518 Swing Boom Skidder. Today was my first day running a loader with a buck saw, so it was a little bit slow, but I got the hang of it pretty quick.

This morning after a couple were cut up.





Here you can see where Colton drives to drop off either the bigger butts or the whole tree for me to pick up with the log loader and either stack or buck and stack.





The pile grows. Karen brought the saw over for me to sharpen. She bucked up for at least 7 hours with only 4 sharpenings (full skip, semi-chisel ---- Stihl ---- 98% Oak ---- a lot of experience not hitting dirt, LOL)





This photo is for those that log for a living ............... under typical logging conditions..................... which are typically crappy. You see we have asphalt all the way to the loader, even the skidders gets to use it. Rough life I know, LOL. I lined up everything so that the log trucks will be on it too. The owner wants us to tear up the asphalt as much as possible because its all getting pulled out by an excavator.





Colton is dropping off some cut off sections that were going to be for firewood. I'll back the dump trailer nearby some day and load it up for firewood. The pile of logs is growing. Ties and blocking on the left and grade on the right.





This is what we were up against today. We cut and stacked about 24,000 board feet...... it was different.


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## Slamm

Now things are really getting stacked up. This is from the cab.









Getting higher..... I wouldn't stand too close to it, LOL. The two stacks to the right are grade logs and 16'/18' Mat Logs. The stack to the left is ties/blocking.





Gets dark early, we all had fun.





I forgot why I took this photo, but then I remembered, note the location of the buck saw ..... note the location of the saw chips. Brings on a whole new meaning of cutting speed. Its handy bucking up with a hydraulic motor backed with 160hp Deere engine, LOL. The chain is (God help me) Oregon 3/4" pitch semi-chisel, 96 links of it. I gotta see if Stihl makes any 3/4". Windsor does, not sure how it holds up. This chain doesn't even look likes its been used at this point, and the oiler isn't working very well. It literally doesn't matter if its cutting air or 36" log its fast, LOL.










Later,

Sam


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## Stihlman441

So Sam i assume these logs go to a mill for pressing ? into ?.


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## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> So Sam i assume these logs go to a mill for pressing ? into ?.



Railroad ties and pallet lumber is the low grade.

The higher grade logs will go for flooring and better lumber.

In all of those logs, there is only 18 grade white oak butts and of those 6 are veneer, those are going to a difference buyer.

Sam


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## missouriboy

Great job! Best thread i have read on here yet. You guys cut the same way i was taught to. I would love to work for a outfit like yours.


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## mrnecsteve

Nice thread. Its interesting to see the cutting and harvesting part of the hardwoods that I have been useing for 40 plus years (mostly hobby wood working ,built a house ,make moulding bowls,furniture etc. I wanted to share something from this end of the spectrum,as every now and then I cut a tree and have it milled, then use it for myself.
Leaners:
In the picture I have included is a beam from a severe "leaner" ,I believe it to be chestnut oak and was milled on a portable sawmill about 3 weeks ago and kept wet (in the rain) for one week after milling. It was a tall, straight 20 inch tree about 5 years ago.Beautiful log.Over three to four years, the roots started getting a lot of water from a nearby swail and gradually leaned to about 65 degrees ,but still mostly straight and clear for almost 30 feet. I knew it had to come down as a "planned event "or it would sideswipe my house when the roots gave out. This board picture is a 15 inch by 12 foot beam from 10 foot above the stump. The crack appeared the very next day after comeing off the mill.It came off the mill looking perfect. Smaller cuts from the same log ,actually "relaxed" 2 inches after milling, over a 12 foot board. My straight cuts were no longer straight .
I just wanted to show the wacky things that go on inside a tree that has leaned for a couple years , (I wrapped a 4000 pound "proof" chain around this one before dropping) The stump became firewood.

Sam ...Ive never used your methods of dropping and probably will never master the techniquesView attachment 270375
.( Most of the time I am cutting only uprooted trees.)
On "radical leaners" do you have success (from a safety aspect) with one particular style of cutting and if so, what is it called. (you have included so many nice pictures.....I am confused with all the details!


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## T0RN4D0

I'm in no way a pro at felling, so i hope they will chime in and correct me if im wrong. Still i think a small steep wedge and bore cut instead of back cut. Keep looking up when you're cutting and have a a few of really clear escape routes in your head. And if you think you can't handle the tree just don't, its not worth it. 

Nice thread, i enjoyed the pictures


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## Iron Mike2

What happened to this thread? I really enjoyed it except for the trolls. Loved all the pics. Did the swing grapple ever get mounted on the cable skidder?


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## Sapo_feo

Slamm left here long ago and took his information with him.


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