# Who else likes Snakes? My last encounter.



## clint53

I don't get to catch many, but this one was special.
My wife can't get far enough away from them.


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## Bill G

You sir are one crazy son of a gun  Had that been me that snake would have met a very timely death. As for a sarcastic woman, I heard her and I love it. She has moxy...


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## stihl sawing

We call them chicken snakes here, they raid hen houses and eat eggs. but they eat rats and mice too. i have caught a lot of them. they will bite but scare you more than they hurt.


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## JRM

They definitely have their place in the cycle of life. I'm a live and let live kinda guy and give them a wide berth. It never fails I end up with a couple that make their home in my greenhouse. They love the warmth.


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## Bill G

stihl sawing said:


> We call them chicken snakes here, they raid hen houses and eat eggs. but they eat rats and mice too. i have caught a lot of them. they will bite but scare you more than they hurt.


Round here there are only two types of snakes .........live ones and dead ones. I do not like either but choose to make live ones into dead ones. I guess you can say I am transforming lives............


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## stihl sawing

I only kill the venomous ones, king snakes and garter snakes are good to have around. we have basically 3 snakes i kill, water moccasin, rattlesnake and copperheads.


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## Bill G

JRM said:


> They definitely have their place in the cycle of life. I'm a live and let live kinda guy and give them a wide berth. It never fails I end up with a couple that make their home in my greenhouse. They love the warmth.


I here folks say that about them having their place in the cycle of life but truly do not understand it. What good do they provide? I know some like to talk about them eating mice but those folks really do not understand what a snake eats in relation to its population and the said population of mice. For snakes to have any serious effect on mice population there would need to probably be about a billion more. Simple science is mice reproduce faster and in larger numbers than snakes and snakes will NEVER have a serious impact on that


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## Bill G

stihl sawing said:


> I only kill the venomous ones, king snakes and garter snakes are good to have around. we have basically 3 snakes i kill, water moccasin, rattlesnake and copperheads.


I will kill everyone of them I am able to but HOPE to never have to kill one again as that would mean I never see one


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## Bango Skank

We mostly got garter snakes here. 
They’re really cool animals. 
When I was a kid I’d catch them sometimes and try to release them in a spot where the cat wouldn’t catch it.


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## Maintenance supervisor

I usually put the big black rat snakes in the wood shed for rat control, when I find them. 
Rodents carry a plethora of diseases from plague to rabies, snakes carry no disease that transmit to humans.


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## Bill G

Bango Skank said:


> We mostly got garter snakes here.
> They’re really cool animals.
> When I was a kid I’d catch them sometimes and try to release them in a spot where the cat wouldn’t catch it.


Cats are another animal that are on my go/no go list. They have their place and some are fine pets. Before my wife and kids left we had a cat in the house that was the best I had ever seen. He had a personality which very few have. He is now happily living with them.

My issue is not as much with a cat as it is with the owners. You hear the stories of "crazy cat ladies" well they are true. Folks refuse to humanely care for their animals and they become overpopulated QUICK.

Those who have read some of my posts know I am extremely PRO-FARMER but to be honest some farmers are the worst when it comes to cats. They get a couple "barn cats" to hold down the mice but then next year it is 14 as they had kittens. The following year it is 70. What do you think those cats are eating? I can tell you it sure is not mice.


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## Bill G

Maintenance supervisor said:


> I usually put the big black rat snakes in the wood shed for rat control, when I find them.
> Rodents carry a plethora of diseases from plague to rabies, snakes carry no disease that transmit to humans.


A little warfarin will do wonders in the wood shed


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## JRM

Nonetheless they are Part of the balance Bill. Frogs, chipmunks, mice, rats, birds and eggs. If any one species has no predator they will eventually become overpopulated. Snakes do their part to keep the balance just the same as anything else.


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## Maintenance supervisor

Bill G said:


> A little warfarin will do wonders in the wood shed


This is true Bill ,but we raise Rabbits and prefer not to have poison on the farm. 
We do have 1 farm cat who doesn't tolerate other cats ,so she good at her job too.


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## Bill G

JRM said:


> Nonetheless they are Part of the balance Bill. Frogs, chipmunks, mice, rats, birds and eggs. If any one species has no predator they will eventually become overpopulated. Snakes do their part to keep the balance just the same as anything else.


So what is the predator in Ohio to :
snakes
coyotes
wolves
bears
mountain lions
coons
groundhogs
beaver


I am a FIRM believer in the balance of nature but ole Mommy gets things upside down from time to time


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## Bill G

Maintenance supervisor said:


> This is true Bill ,but we raise Rabbits and prefer not to have poison on the farm.
> We do have 1 farm cat who doesn't tolerate other cats ,so she good at her job too.


I wholeheartedly commend you for raising rabbits. I grew up raising them as well as my sons. I never had the heart to butcher them and gave them away. Now as for cattle, hogs, sheep, chickens, turkeys and the like......yeah they are all in the freezer


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## Bill G

I want to be VERY clear I am not looking to get in a huge debate here just friendly banter which is what makes the world great


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## esshup

I am unaware of any self sustaining population in Ohio of Wolves, Bears or Mt. Lions. 

I wanted to leave cats alone at my place (out in the country). I had enough when the Tom cats started spraying in the outbuildings. The ATV has a rusted spot on the chrome rim because of them, and I was getting mice in the house. PLUS the outbuildings smelled like cat whiz. I saw 2 that were 100% feral, if they saw you they were running. So I set a live trap and the total now is up to 15 cats. I have no idea where they are living, all of them are 100% feral. The mouse population doesn't seem to be worse, but the rabbit population sure exploded!


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## JRM

Bill G said:


> So what is the predator in Ohio to :
> snakes - foxes, coons, owls, hawks, eagles
> coyotes no natural predator, with the exception of young, old, and sick
> wolves same
> bears same
> mountain lions same
> coons coyotes, owls, hawks, eagles
> groundhogs coyotes, fox, owls, hawks, eagles. And my dog
> beaver coyotes, fox, owls, hawks, eagles
> 
> 
> I am a FIRM believer in the balance of nature but ole Mommy gets things upside down from time to time


Of course humans attempt to balance the population through hunting. They (we) may get it wrong from time to time but the attempt is genuinely made to base the permits on the population. If there was an open season on bears and people killed them as soon as they see one bears would have been extinct long ago.

If there were no people on earth any animal that didn't have a natural predator would be kept in balance by the amount of their food source and climate, and to an extent each other. The old dog in the pack is not for long.


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## Bill G

I am amazed at how vastly different game laws are in different states. An example is Illinois, Iowa,and Wisconsin. They border each other but have wide variations in game laws


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## Bill G

On a related note I think in Illinois it's illegal to kill a snake. Well that is one law I do not follow


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## JD Guy

Like others on this thread we do not like to "permanently relocate"  snakes but do if they become egg eaters in the hen house. Mostly just black rat snakes and unless they bother us we let them alone. Copperheads on the other hand are dispatched ASAP if around the house, yard or buildings.


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## Bill G

JD Guy said:


> Like others on this thread we do not like to "permanently relocate"  snakes but do if they become egg eaters in the hen house. Mostly just black rat snakes and unless they bother us we let them alone. Copperheads on the other hand are dispatched ASAP if around the house, yard or buildings.


I have to ask why it is you will kill a copperhead but not a rat snake? Do they not both serve the same purpose? Don't copperheads eat mice? Yes they can bite and are venomous but how many folks are bitten and actually die from the bites?


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## JD Guy

Bill G said:


> I have to ask why it is you will kill a copperhead but not a rat snake? Do they not both serve the same purpose? Don't copperheads eat mice? Yes they can bite and are venomous but how many folks are bitten and actually die from the bites?


Grandkids and dogs Primarily.


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## Bill G

I hope they didn't die


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## jignfrog

They are not usually fatal. But they hurt like hell and take days/weeks to heal.... So they are not something to mess with. Plus they love wood piles and rock piles and leaves... Which is why they get taken out of population if they are around the house. I tend to have wood piles and rock piles and being in the Ozarks we have a lot of leaves from oaks and such. I don't kill them just for the sake of it. But my grandkids are way more important than a copperhead. Yes they kill rats but they could really hurt a 2 year old or a 6 year old. Who really like to help PAPA stack wood or unload the truck. And PAPA likes having the company. Being a grandparent is the best thing that I have ever experienced.. There is not much I wouldn't do for the little feller that likes chainsaws and drills and trucks and tractors. So snake vs grandbaby.... Snake dies 100 percent of the time.


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## JD Guy

jignfrog said:


> They are not usually fatal. But they hurt like hell and take days/weeks to heal.... So they are not something to mess with. Plus they love wood piles and rock piles and leaves... Which is why they get taken out of population if they are around the house. I tend to have wood piles and rock piles and being in the Ozarks we have a lot of leaves from oaks and such. I don't kill them just for the sake of it. But my grandkids are way more important than a copperhead. Yes they kill rats but they could really hurt a 2 year old or a 6 year old. Who really like to help PAPA stack wood or unload the truck. And PAPA likes having the company. Being a grandparent is the best thing that I have ever experienced.. There is not much I wouldn't do for the little feller that likes chainsaws and drills and trucks and tractors. So snake vs grandbaby.... Snake dies 100 percent of the time.


Exactly! Well said!


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## esshup

JRM said:


> Of course humans attempt to balance the population through hunting. They (we) may get it wrong from time to time but the attempt is genuinely made to base the permits on the population. If there was an open season on bears and people killed them as soon as they see one bears would have been extinct long ago.
> 
> If there were no people on earth any animal that didn't have a natural predator would be kept in balance by the amount of their food source and climate, and to an extent each other. The old dog in the pack is not for long.
> 
> View attachment 998919


Don't forget disease. Raccoons here will get their numbers reduced greatly every few years by distemper now that the fur prices are so low.


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## Bill G

I hope they didn't di


esshup said:


> Don't forget disease. Raccoons here will get their numbers reduced greatly every few years by distemper now that the fur prices are so low.


Yes and there is no way that can be considered more humane than a highly regulated controlled harvest in November. If you have seen coons suffering in March there is no way that can be considered humane nor a "balance of nature"


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## Bill G

The simple fact is ole mother nature may get some things right but she makes some huge mistakes, There are species that have no natural predators other than disease and famine. I am not sure how anyone can EVER argue that is more humane. How is it humane for one species to be depleted because of over predation then that predator species is depleted by starving to death or succumbs to disease. No matter what anyone wants to believe there are species that left uncontrolled by humans will QUICKY upset the gentle balance of nature


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## Bill G

jignfrog said:


> They are not usually fatal. But they hurt like hell and take days/weeks to heal.... So they are not something to mess with. Plus they love wood piles and rock piles and leaves... Which is why they get taken out of population if they are around the house. I tend to have wood piles and rock piles and being in the Ozarks we have a lot of leaves from oaks and such. I don't kill them just for the sake of it. But my grandkids are way more important than a copperhead. Yes they kill rats but they could really hurt a 2 year old or a 6 year old. Who really like to help PAPA stack wood or unload the truck. And PAPA likes having the company. Being a grandparent is the best thing that I have ever experienced.. There is not much I wouldn't do for the little feller that likes chainsaws and drills and trucks and tractors. So snake vs grandbaby.... Snake dies 100 percent of the time.


Trust me I would kill every single one I saw without a doubt.


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## pioneerguy600

We do not have poisonous snakes here, just big large garter snakes that scare the bejusus out of some people, not me so much. They will rare up and hiss at you if scared so that sends shivers through one if surprised. I don`t kill them and don`t play with them, just let them be and there is definitely no overpopulation problems here. When I visit California I have come across rattle snakes out in the wild lands and usually just give them a wide berth, only picked up and moved two different ones off a path, I was hiking on when I came across a group of people jamming up the path, they were scared stiff of a couple little snakes about 3 feet long, coiled up on the stony path sunning themselves. Was a very warm day and I guess the snakes came out of the rock to warm up some, they were rattling to keep people and dogs away from them but causing a blockade of the only pathway up or down from that place so I gently moved them off the path to let everyone go their way. Some were yelling for me to kill them but I figure they are meant to be there and just relocated them , others were yelling at me to not go near them cause they bite, they didn`t bite me so I figured I did ok.


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## lone wolf

pioneerguy600 said:


> We do not have poisonous snakes here, just big large garter snakes that scare the bejusus out of some people, not me so much. They will rare up and hiss at you if scared so that sends shivers through one if surprised. I don`t kill them and don`t play with them, just let them be and there is definitely no overpopulation problems here. When I visit California I have come across rattle snakes out in the wild lands and usually just give them a wide berth, only picked up and moved two different ones off a path, I was hiking on when I came across a group of people jamming up the path, they were scared stiff of a couple little snakes about 3 feet long, coiled up on the stony path sunning themselves. Was a very warm day and I guess the snakes came out of the rock to warm up some, they were rattling to keep people and dogs away from them but causing a blockade of the only pathway up or down from that place so I gently moved them off the path to let everyone go their way. Some were yelling for me to kill them but I figure they are meant to be there and just relocated them , others were yelling at me to not go near them cause they bite, they didn`t bite me so I figured I did ok.


Bare hands or a stick to move them?


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## Bill G

I understand the balance of nature but there are just some things that I see ZERO use for the biggest is coyotes and all snakes are a close second. If *all* coyotes and *all* snakes were *100% eliminated* the balance of nature would be just fine. If folks feel differently then we will politely disagree


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## pioneerguy600

lone wolf said:


> Bare hands or a stick to move them?


 A stick about 4 foot long, not touching any venemous snake with my hands.


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## lone wolf

pioneerguy600 said:


> A stick about 4 foot long, not touching any venemous snake with my hands.


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## Bill G

That is what ole Charles Darwin would call "natural selection" and Anne Frank wrote about


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## stillhunter

Me a month or so ago......







yesterday I went to grab 3' blacksnake in the front yard. I bent down to catch it and found out it was black racer. It hauled ass to the backyard and into the tall grass. You should not try to grab one. If they are cornered they will hiss loud and bite if you try to grab/hold them. Years ago I was rabbit hunting on a cold day when I saw one about 4' sunning in the pine plantation. I thought the snake would be cold and easy to catch and I'd put it in my coat and scare my friends when we got back together after getting the dogs back. The snake took off fast and I new it was a racer. I ran/chased it about 75 yrds and it stopped and turned around and chased me back about 20 yrds w it's head high and striking at my legs while a danced w the snake. Then It stopped, raised it's head high and hisssssssssssssssssed loud, then It turned around a slowly moved away the victor. I thought it was too bad none of my friends saw a man w a shotgun running away from a mad snake that was trying to bite him.


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## Bill G

That is a before pic. How about an after pic.? Their necks snap easily with a quick whip or a 12 gauge............


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## clint53

stillhunter said:


> Me a month or so ago......View attachment 1001164
> View attachment 1001166
> 
> yesterday I went to grab 3' blacksnake in the front yard. I bent down to catch it and found out it was black racer. It hauled ass to the backyard and into the tall grass. You should not try to grab one. If they are cornered they will hiss loud and bite if you try to grab/hold them. Years ago I was rabbit hunting on a cold day when I saw one about 4' sunning in the pine plantation. I thought the snake would be cold and easy to catch and I'd put it in my coat and scare my friends when we got back together after getting the dogs back. The snake took off fast and I new it was a racer. I ran/chased it about 75 yrds and it stopped and turned around and chased me back about 20 yrds w it's head high and striking at my legs while a danced w the snake. Then It stopped, raised it's head high and hisssssssssssssssssed loud, then It turned around a slowly moved away the victor. I thought it was too bad none of my friends saw a man w a shotgun running away from a mad snake that was trying to bite him.


Attaboy.


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## MattRBritton

clint53 said:


> I don't get to catch many, but this one was special.
> My wife can't get far enough away from them.



Wow, you do NOT play with snakes here unless you are VERY sure you know what it is.

Well, you don’t do it twice anyway.


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## Bill G

MattRBritton said:


> Wow, you do NOT play with snakes here unless you are VERY sure you know what it is.
> 
> Well, you don’t do it twice anyway.


Matt,

That is because you folks got about every dayum thing in the world that can kill you. How many species of venomous snakes do you have? I am betting it is a whole lot more than the USA. I believe we basically have 4 basic species rattlesnakes, copperheads, water moccasins, and coral snakes. Of course there are various versions of those with rattle snakes having the most. The water moccasin I believe is also called a cottonmouth. I really doubt anyone dies each year from a coral snake bite but I am probably wrong. As much as I want to spew my hatred of snakes the chances of getting bit here are rare. I live right on the top of the Mississippi river bluff and my farm and the home farm all go from the top of the bluff down to the river. There are tons of sandstone outcroppings and a few old coal mines along our mile and a half long bluff. Those rocky areas are known to hold populations of timber rattlers. I just stay out of that area. It is common sense. The Illinois DNR used to display a stuffed timber rattler at the state fair that would scare the sheet out of anyone. It was as thick as the thickest part of my forearm. Now just across the river in Iowa they have a much larger population up around the limestone caves in Maquoketa. The local museum used to show a video of folks catching them up there. Also over on the Iowa side just a few miles away is a state park that has a lot of sandstone "cliffs". They have a population of Massasauga Rattlesnakes. That is not fiction that came from the mouth of the park ranger. Some 32 years ago in college I had a couple classes in conservation and he spoke to us. He told us at the time that they no longer built snake houses (piles of rocks) because of the growing population of Massasauga Rattlesnakes. Yes that was 32 years ago but they have done nothing but increase.

Now on a funny side note 30 years ago in college I could not see the benefit of taking tennis to fulfill my physical education requirement. My wife did choose tennis but she looked better in a tennis skirt than me. I chose to take a one week canoe trip and what that referred to as "wilderness experience" . We were taken to the far northeast corner of Minnesota to what they call the boundary waters between the US and Canada. We were there one week and could only take in a canoe (2 to a canoe) and what went in our pack. We had to catch or collect the rest of our food. Now me being scared of snakes I asked the guide, who was also my conservation and biology teacher about poisonous snakes. In his ole Irish or Polish accent he says "sheet Bill what you scared of they taint poisonous snakes up here taint no snakes at tall" I was assured as I had total respect for the man and I never saw a snake.

Now in writing this post I had to look up the correct spelling for the Massasauga Rattlesnake and it turns out it says they are in Ontario. Well heck if they are in Ontario what prevents them from being in northern Minnesota. That was our boundary and we had to be careful to only fish on the US waters and out of Ontario waters. Merle you lied to me!!!


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## [email protected]

clint53 said:


> I don't get to catch many, but this one was special.
> My wife can't get far enough away from them.



oh wow ...when I am in India for my vacation I see that the locals including children were handling this type of snake easily. In some places, they consider this type of snake-like the gods. its a incredible journey i ever had


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## MattRBritton

Bill G said:


> but she looked better in a tennis skirt than me


So, you did compare, right?


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## REJ2

We have the Massasauga Rattlesnake here in Kansas, much smaller as far as rattlesnakes go though.


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## cookies

I have a scarlet king snake living in my front garden wood pile and a garder living in the adjoining neighbors confederate jasmine and a few random grey rat snakes that meander through every so often. Never fails that I end up rescuing a neighbor from one of the rat snakes that hid in a doorway corner or hedge by their front door. Its the feral cats I wish dispatched, they kill everything they can catch. They also carry diseases and fleas/ticks, crap in your yard and walk all over your cars.


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## stillhunter

cookies said:


> I have a scarlet king snake living in my front garden wood pile and a garder living in the adjoining neighbors confederate jasmine and a few random grey rat snakes that meander through every so often. Never fails that I end up rescuing a neighbor from one of the rat snakes that hid in a doorway corner or hedge by their front door. Its the feral cats I wish dispatched, they kill everything they can catch. They also carry diseases and fleas/ticks, crap in your yard and walk all over your cars.


I've seen a few here in N.C. and they are beautiful


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## Evil XL 12

My parents, me, and everyone else I grew up with killed all of the snakes we saw. I met my wife in high school and she taught me to appreciate them. I was shocked the first time I watched her catch one. Now we take our teenage kids to the lake and catch them fairly often. We do give the venomous ones their space though. My son has 2 pet snakes. I don't know how important their place in the ecosystem is but they are beautiful and I do regret killing some of the ones I did. I did shoot a copperhead once that almost got my son when we were walking. My son was 4 at the time and I don't regret killing that particular snake.


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## Bill G

MattRBritton said:


> So, you did compare, right?


No reason to. I am a common sense guy. Common sense says she looked better


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## Bill G

REJ2 said:


> We have the Massasauga Rattlesnake here in Kansas, much smaller as far as rattlesnakes go though.


Yes,

They say they are shorties but I do not want to find out


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## Bill G

cookies said:


> I have a scarlet king snake living in my front garden wood pile and a garder living in the adjoining neighbors confederate jasmine and a few random grey rat snakes that meander through every so often. Never fails that I end up rescuing a neighbor from one of the rat snakes that hid in a doorway corner or hedge by their front door. Its the feral cats I wish dispatched, they kill everything they can catch. They also carry diseases and fleas/ticks, crap in your yard and walk all over your cars.


Well, we definitely agree on the cats, they need gone but they are 100% the fault of poor human choices. We have no one to blame but ourselves for the feral cat problem. In your location I would think the pythons are an issue


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## MattRBritton

Bill G said:


> Well, we definitely agree on the cats, they need gone but they are 100% the fault of poor human choices. We have no one to blame but ourselves for the feral cat problem. In your location I would think the pythons are an issue


In NZ they do, or used to do, big possum hunts. A bit of a social event, and hundreds(?) of possums get shot and piled up.

I’d be happy to see the same with feral cats.


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## Bill G

MattRBritton said:


> In NZ they do, or used to do, big possum hunts. A bit of a social event, and hundreds(?) of possums get shot and piled up.
> 
> I’d be happy to see the same with feral cats.


I do not have any issues here with possums. Mt neighbor hates them as for years he had horses and possums are said to carry disease. Now his wife feeds a huge amount of coons and their place is overrun with coons and coon poop all over everything. She buys 50lb bags of dog food for them. They have such a taste for dog food that this fall I am going to have a tough time trapping them baited with fish.


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## cookies

pythons are further south, bait the coons with dog food


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## Bill G

cookies said:


> pythons are further south, bait the coons with dog food


That is not possible in a double set #2LS


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## Backyard Lumberjack

Maintenance supervisor said:


> I usually put the big black rat snakes in the wood shed for rat control, when I find them.
> Rodents carry a plethora of diseases from plague to rabies, snakes carry no disease that transmit to humans.


rat snakes are ok with me. but copperheads.... 

had a real bad (close) experience with one just the other day... *"F!!!*" is all i can say...


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## Bill G

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> rat snakes are ok with me. but copperheads....
> 
> had a real bad (close) experience with one just the other day... *"F!!!*" is all i can say...


Well did ya kill it?


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## Backyard Lumberjack

JRM said:


> Nonetheless they are Part of the balance Bill. Frogs, chipmunks, mice, rats, birds and eggs. If any one species has no predator they will eventually become overpopulated. Snakes do their part to keep the balance j*ust the same as anything else.*


i guess feral hogs included there, too!


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## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> Well did ya kill it?


lol,  no, but it sure and s**t! nearly did me in...'EEEK! '

and few are as diligently vigilant as i am when up at my ranch. i am on 24/7-365 copperhead ALERT! but i got surprised and learned a lesson... 

it was a lucky copperhead.


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## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> Cats are another animal that are on my go/no go list. They have their place and some are fine pets. Before my wife and kids left we had a cat in the house that was the best I had ever seen. He had a personality which very few have. He is now happily living with them.
> 
> My issue is not as much with a cat as it is with the owners. You hear the stories of "crazy cat ladies" well they are true. Folks refuse to humanely care for their animals and they become overpopulated QUICK.
> 
> Those who have read some of my posts know I am extremely PRO-FARMER but to be honest some farmers are the worst when it comes to cats. They get a couple "barn cats" to hold down the mice but then next year it is 14 as they had kittens. The following year it is 70. What do you think those cats are eating? I can tell you it sure is not mice.


at one popular, well-known ranch... some of the local residents have been using extra spare time to attend CC Adult Continuing Education classes in English.


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## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> I want to be VERY clear I am not looking to get in a huge debate here just friendly banter which is what makes the world great


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## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> That is not possible in a double set #2LS


huh??


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## Blue Oaks

I post this from time to time. IMO there's no good reason to let a rattlesnake live around here. Any value they bring is easily replaced by the King and Gopher Snakes. There's something about putting your hand 6 inches from a fat rattlesnake's mouth. You KNOW they can't strike without a body, but damn you feel alive taking the video. I keep a flat shovel at all four corners of the house. Both of my previous dogs have been bitten. It's only a matter of time before Archer gets his due.



Here's a large female, probably pregnant.







Archer, who to date has never seen a snake I don't think. He's an idiot, he'll get bitten.


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## Backyard Lumberjack

JD Guy said:


> Like others on this thread we do not like to "permanently relocate"  snakes but do if they become egg eaters in the hen house. Mostly just black rat snakes and unless they bother us we let them alone. *Copperheads on the other hand are dispatched ASAP if around the house, yard or buildings.*


my MO, too!!!! uh-huh! 

one evening last year... i encountered 4 in the yard all within 45 mins or so. about 8:30 ish and sun had not fully set. 4!!!

   

all relocated!!! ala mr Brutus. long shovel, tip missing. chisel. he never looses! never!

i hang them on the fence. usually gone by morning. the owls like them. copperhead may get in wrong place, wrong time... but, alas... owls get hungry, too. and have kids to feed.

i don't feel so bad then about my relocation requirements!


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## Bill G

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> i guess feral hogs included there, too!


We are very lucky so far, but we do not have them YET. When we do (which is eventual) I will have ZERO use for them. I question the sanity of anyone who does see a use for them


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> I have to ask why it is you will kill a copperhead but not a rat snake? Do they not both serve the same purpose? Don't copperheads eat mice? Yes they can bite and are venomous *but how many folks are bitten and actually die from the bites?*


statistically, approx 3,000 annually in US-48 are bitten by copperheads. of those, some 4,5/6 statistically will not survive the bit and wound.

bad place to be:


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> We are very lucky so far, but we do not have them YET. When we do (which is eventual) I will have ZERO use for them. I question the sanity of anyone who does see a use for them


besides that... they taste like ! well, imo...

however, some do like to smoke them. bbq, etc


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

JD Guy said:


> Grandkids and dogs Primarily.


actually, dogs do quite well with a copperhead bite.


----------



## Bill G

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> lol,  no, but it sure and s**t! nearly did me in...'EEEK! '
> 
> and few are as diligently vigilant as i am when up at my ranch. i am on 24/7-365 copperhead ALERT! but i got surprised and learned a lesson...
> 
> it was a lucky copperhead.


I cannot kid anyone. I leave some snakes alone if I do not have a way to humanely dispatch them. If I am out spraying and see a snake, I do not chase it down if I cannot humanely dispatch it. As much as I hate them, they are still living creatures and should not be subjected to torture.


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> Trust me I would kill every single one I saw without a doubt.


i don't hunt them, other than around 8-9:30 pm when up at ranch. then i go on Snake Safari... mr Brutus raised and at the ready!!! no want, so no be here! be here, no mercy! although i really admire the beauty and design of the snake... think it color are just amazing... i consider all and any a dangerous threat!!!

such threats must be eliminated!


----------



## Bill G

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> at one popular, well-known ranch... some of the local residents have been using extra spare time to attend CC Adult Continuing Education classes in English.


I can be pretty thick headed but now I see your location and I fully get what you are saying


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

lone wolf said:


> Bare hands or a stick to move them?


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

pioneerguy600 said:


> A stick about 4 foot long, not touching any venemous snake with my hands.


i keep a snake handlers claw up at the ranch house. just in case! i mean, what the F would i do... run around with my head in a tither? nope, just calmly get the claw and get a hold of the situation!






or at least that is the plan. 

_"expect the unexpected, be ready... and be on guard!"_


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

stillhunter said:


> Me a month or so ago......View attachment 1001164
> View attachment 1001166
> 
> yesterday I went to grab 3' blacksnake in the front yard. I bent down to catch it and found out it was black racer. It hauled ass to the backyard and into the tall grass. You should not try to grab one. If they are cornered they will hiss loud and bite if you try to grab/hold them. Years ago I was rabbit hunting on a cold day when I saw one about 4' sunning in the pine plantation. I thought the snake would be cold and easy to catch and I'd put it in my coat and scare my friends when we got back together after getting the dogs back. The snake took off fast and I new it was a racer. I ran/chased it about 75 yrds and it stopped and turned around and chased me back about 20 yrds w it's head high and striking at my legs while a danced w the snake. Then It stopped, raised it's head high and hisssssssssssssssssed loud, then It turned around a slowly moved away the victor. I thought it was too bad none of my friends saw a man w a shotgun running away from a mad snake that was trying to bite him.


good one!


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> That is a before pic. How about an after pic.? Their necks snap easily with a quick whip or a 12 gauge............


thinking i mite get some snake rounds for my .32 seecamp


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> I cannot kid anyone. I leave some snakes alone if I do not have a way to humanely dispatch them. If I am out spraying and see a snake, I do not chase it down if I cannot humanely dispatch it. As much as I hate them, they are still living creatures and should not be subjected to torture.


if i see a copperhead and i have mr Brutus with me... it is not an issue of torture! no, not at all...

see the copperhead - 1 snake

meet mr Brutus - now 2 snakes.

one has a head, and one has a tail!

that's my tale....


----------



## Bill G

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> huh??


I had spoken about my neighbor feeding coons nightly with 50lb bags of dog food and how that was going to make it tough to trap them this fall baited with fish, He said use dog food and I said that is tough to do with a double set of #2LS

My point is that it is impossible to bait a set with dog food when you use a double set of #2LS (#2 long spring leg holds) I use # 2 long spring legholds as that allows me the option to turn loose unintended catches. I have turned many small coon loose and the worst is when you catch some gentleman's coon hound. If I was using bodygrippers (conibears) that would not be an option and I would be sick to take some mans dead dog out of a trap. That IS NOT trapping


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

MattRBritton said:


> Wow, you do NOT play with snakes here unless you are VERY sure you know what it is.
> 
> Well, you don’t do it twice anyway.


that fat, female rattler scared me... and it was just a pix!!!


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Bill G said:


> I had spoken about my neighbor feeding coons nightly with 50lb bags of dog food and how that was going to make it tough to trap them this fall baited with fish, He said use dog food and I said that is tough to do with a double set of #2LS
> 
> My point is that it is impossible to bait a set with dog food when you use a double set of #2LS (#2 long spring leg holds) I use # 2 long spring legholds as that allows me the option to turn loose unintended catches. I have turned many small coon loose and the worst is when you catch some gentleman's coon hound. If I was using bodygrippers (conibears) that would not be an option and I would be sick to take some mans dead dog out of a trap. That IS NOT trapping


oic, thanks for explanation

got it!


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

cookies said:


> pythons are further south, bait the coons with dog food


We hear of a python that got out story here in Texas on the local news from time to time. i had a friend a ways back... and he liked snakes. had a pet python! feed it a white rat... and then din't need to eat for several months ~

Our family used to live in the UK! my Mom was deathly scared of snakes!!  so one day my Dad bet her 10 L's... if she would hold a python at the London Zoo... for 1 minute. he talked to the zoo keeper of the reptile house and he said it would be ok. and so there we were... entire family in front of a python window... at the world famous London Zoo and the keeper went and got one he felt was docile at the time... brought it out...  me and my bro & sis   and gently wrapped it across my Mom's back, shoulders and arms... it was about 20 maybe 26' long. too big n thick for me!  but she did it!! and Dad took the picture. Mom got the 10 L's... about $30US back then. when a buck was a buck! (1959)

a family moment! i have a pix of it somewhere's... it was a really, big deal!!!

Dad made sure it was worth the keepers time and efforts. 

Mom & a python! ~ well, you get the idea....


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

Blue Oaks said:


> I post this from time to time. IMO there's no good reason to let a rattlesnake live around here. You KNOW they can't strike without a body, but damn you feel alive taking the video. I keep a flat shovel at all four corners of the house. Both of my previous dogs have been bitten. It's only a matter of time before Archer gets his due.
> 
> Archer, who to date has never seen a snake I don't think. He's an idiot, he'll get bitten.


Archer is definitely a cute tyke!!


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

. always on the alert for these critters up at the ranch. they can and do show up any time.




just a summer's evening after having been out on a Snake Safari...


----------



## Backstage

Bill G said:


> They get a couple "barn cats" to hold down the mice but then next year it is 14 as they had kittens. The following year it is 70. What do you think those cats are eating? I can tell you it sure is not mice.


Hey, those things are great meat animals. People go on about how great rabbits are. Get a few, and you can breed 500lbs of meat! That’s nothing. Plus, whoever heard of a good rabbit General Tso?


----------



## Bill G

Backstage said:


> Hey, those things are great meat animals. People go on about how great rabbits are. Get a few, and you can breed 500lbs of meat! That’s nothing. Plus, whoever heard of a good rabbit General Tso?


My post was about cats not rabbits. You want to eat cats go ahead but I will not be joining you EVER


----------



## Bill G

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> besides that... they taste like ! well, imo...
> 
> however, some do like to smoke them. bbq, etc


I will stick to my farm raised pork


----------



## MattRBritton

Bill G said:


> My post was about cats not rabbits. You want to eat cats go ahead but I will not be joining you EVER


It’s a joke dude. General Tso. Classic Chinese take-away. Made from chicken (aka cat).


----------



## JRM

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> i guess feral hogs included there, too!


That's a different story. They aren't native to this continent. Whoever decided to let them run wild screwed up!


----------



## Bill G

JRM said:


> That's a different story. They aren't native to this continent. Whoever decided to let them run wild screwed up!


Yes that is very true. Kill on site just like coyotes


----------



## old guy

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> at one popular, well-known ranch... some of the local residents have been using extra spare time to attend CC Adult Continuing Education classes in English.
> View attachment 1003965


I spit my pablum all over the first time I heard that.


----------



## Bill G

MattRBritton said:


> It’s a joke dude. General Tso. Classic Chinese take-away. Made from chicken (aka cat).


I am not a dude. I have explained that.  As for the comment I apologize I am not up on Southeast Asia culture. I try to keep my focus in the USA


----------



## clint53

MattRBritton said:


> Wow, you do NOT play with snakes here unless you are VERY sure you know what it is.
> 
> Well, you don’t do it twice anyway.


Thanks Matt
Yes, the snake world down under is completely different from where I live on the US east coast.
I've watched plenty of vids about what you guys have down there.
In my area we only have two kinds of poisonous snakes. Rattlers and Copperheads.
But I to keep in mind that someone may have had a poisonous snake get away. So, if I don't know what it is I don't pick it up.


----------



## Bill G

clint53 said:


> Thanks Matt
> Yes, the snake world down under is completely different from where I live on the US east coast.
> I've watched plenty of vids about what you guys have down there.
> In my area we only have two kinds of poisonous snakes. Rattlers and Copperheads.
> But I to keep in mind that someone may have had a poisonous snake get away. So, if I don't know what it is I don't pick it up.


That is very true. About 25 years ago I was at a meeting/in-service that was discussing the rapid spread of meth. One of the presenters was a fine looking older nurse that worked the ER.. After the meeting was over I asked her about that issue. I asked what happens if a person comes in that has been bitten by a cobra. Yes, this was Iowa and yes we do not have cobras just like North America. What we do have is meth heads and what they have will surprise you. She said she honestly did not know but that she would look into the issue and let me know. Well I figured that was the end of it. About a week or so later I get a personal letter in the mail from her. She explained that she did indeed look into it and that it has occurred in the past. (venom bites they do not commonly see not necessarily a cobra). There policy is to have a state police officer bring the needed medication from the University of Iowa Hospital or if needed medi-vac fly it to them. That woman did what few do today......followed up and followed through


----------



## Abbeville TSI

I'm wondering if you followed up on the fine looking older nurse, Bill G


----------



## Bill G

Abbeville TSI said:


> I'm wondering if you followed up on the fine looking older nurse, Bill G


Well that is a very valid question. At the time I was happily married to the finest woman I had ever known. We had one great son and two to follow so the fine looking older nurse was not something I needed to focus on. Now my wife is gone and our sons are adults, I do wonder about that nurse. I know you are going to doubt me but up until 5 years ago I still had that letter. That there is the truth..........


----------



## Reaper

Bill G said:


> I am not a dude. I have explained that.  As for the comment I apologize I am not up on Southeast Asia culture. I try to keep my focus in the USA


----------



## Blue Oaks

I saw a "racer snake" yesterday. And yes, they're fast!






California Striped Racer - Coluber lateralis lateralis







californiaherps.com





(internet photo)


----------



## Blue Oaks

My friend came across this male Northern Pacific Rattlesnake yesterday on a ride. Would you look at that magnificent rattle!

https://vimeo.com/745247627


----------



## pdqdl

Backyard Lumberjack said:


> statistically, approx 3,000 annually in US-48 are bitten by copperheads. of those, some 4,5/6 statistically will not survive the bit and wound.
> 
> bad place to be:
> View attachment 1003968



My research reveals numbers a bit different than yours:

"Copperhead deaths occur when victims refuse to seek immediate medical help because they underestimated the snake’s venom. Since only 0.01% of copperhead bites are fatal, we can correctly estimate an average of 1 death every 4 years. This number is, of course, regrettable because getting treatment in time can save the victim’s life.​​It is important to remember that although 99.99% of victims survive copperhead bites, the remaining fraction still represents people who never assumed they would be unlucky to fall into that segment. If you’re bitten by a snake, venomous or not, see a doctor immediately.​​The CDC states that an average of 5 people die each year from snake bites. Considering copperhead death statistics (1 in every 4 years), it is safe to say that copperheads are responsible for 1 in 20 deaths caused by snakes."​​







Why the Copperhead Bites More People Than Any Other Snake in the United States


If you have ever wondered why the copperhead bites more people than any other snake in the United States, you are about to find out.




a-z-animals.com


----------



## pdqdl

Bill G said:


> I have to ask why it is you will kill a copperhead but not a rat snake? Do they not both serve the same purpose? Don't copperheads eat mice? Yes they can bite and are venomous but how many folks are bitten and actually die from the bites?



I have never read anything that I can recall about any special niche in the ecosystem that the copperheads fill, but I'm pretty sure there is one.

Something that comes to mind for me is the fact that most snakes are pretty harmless. Nearly helpless, in fact, but they seem to get a wide amount of respect from most of the predators. I am just guessing, but it seems likely that the poisonous snakes offer protection to their venomless kin by being so formidable that predators (and humans) generally leave snakes completely alone.

Myself, I have always opposed killing of snakes. I think they are beautiful, and good for the environment, for the most part. My father was raised on killing them at every chance, and he tried to teach that to me, too. Fortunately, that is one lesson that didn't take. 
There are not many species of snake native to my area that I haven't caught bare handed, played with for a while, and then released. None of them, however, were poisonous. Once you know how to hold a wild snake, they tend to think of you more as a tree branch that moves instead of a predator to strike at.

I was invited to a fellow's house once, and he encouraged me to pick up his rather large boa constrictor. Although he warned me that the snake does bite, I got along fine with it. In fact, he later admitted that I was the only person he knew that could pick it up, handle it, and not get bitten. While that seemed like a dirty trick he was trying to play on me, it showed me that he wasn't a very good host for his boa, either.


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

pdqdl said:


> My research reveals numbers a bit different than yours:
> 
> "Copperhead deaths occur when victims refuse to seek immediate medical help because they underestimated the snake’s venom. Since only 0.01% of copperhead bites are fatal, we can correctly estimate an average of 1 death every 4 years. This number is, of course, regrettable because getting treatment in time can save the victim’s life.​​It is important to remember that although 99.99% of victims survive copperhead bites, the remaining fraction still represents people who never assumed they would be unlucky to fall into that segment. If you’re bitten by a snake, venomous or not, see a doctor immediately.​​The CDC states that an average of 5 people die each year from snake bites. Considering copperhead death statistics (1 in every 4 years), it is safe to say that copperheads are responsible for 1 in 20 deaths caused by snakes."​​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the Copperhead Bites More People Than Any Other Snake in the United States
> 
> 
> If you have ever wondered why the copperhead bites more people than any other snake in the United States, you are about to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a-z-animals.com


what part?:

2,920 people

An estimated *2,920 people* are bitten by copperheads (Ancistrodon contortrix) annually in the United States.


----------



## toby201

Bill G said:


> You sir are one crazy son of a gun  Had that been me that snake would have met a very timely death. As for a sarcastic woman, I heard her and I love it. She has moxy...


they also kill poisonous snakes on your property--they constrict them to kill and they are also immune to the poisonous snakes bit. don't kill these guys ---


----------



## Blue Oaks

Saw this gorgeous CA King Snake last week. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_kingsnake


----------



## pdqdl

The part about how many die from copperheads.

You said:


Backyard Lumberjack said:


> ...of those, some 4,5/6 statistically will not survive the bit and wound



.01% fatality rate means that you might one fatality every 3 years. 

I had a co-worker that was very much involved with exotic animals. He was fond of going to the Oklahoma rattlesnake roundup. Now I don't believe his tall tale, but having made a fine harvest of rattlers, he said that he got a flat tire coming back from said event. He was bitten by a copperhead right at the side of the highway (he said), and was hospitalized for weeks.

I never believed a word of it. Copperheads don't hang out at the side of the highway, and the randomness getting bit by one while changing a flat is too much for me to fall for. That guy captured a copperhead and was bringing it back, but it probably escaped and hid in his van by the flat tire.


----------



## pdqdl

clint53 said:


> I don't get to catch many, but this one was special.
> My wife can't get far enough away from them.






Bill G said:


> You sir are one crazy son of a gun  Had that been me that snake would have met a very timely death. As for a sarcastic woman, I heard her and I love it. She has moxy...



I've caught many dozens of wild snakes. As shown in the video, they are generally pretty docile. They are more likely to strike if you chase 'em down and restrain them prior to picking them up. Even a really big black snake barely has enough teeth to scratch your skin. They are damned sharp, though. Quite effective at pointing backwards down their throat, where the rodents are destined to go.



stihl sawing said:


> I only kill the venomous ones, king snakes and garter snakes are good to have around. we have basically 3 snakes i kill, water moccasin, rattlesnake and copperheads.



NEVER kill the king snakes, _especially_ if you hate snakes and kill them habitually. They are not venomous, and they are one of the few predators of venomous snakes. For a king snake, that copperhead is just a really nice meal.


----------



## pdqdl




----------



## ElevatorGuy

Almost got me, hiding under my garage step. The only good snake is a dead one.


----------



## Bill G

good snake=dead snake


----------



## Bill G

ElevatorGuy said:


> Almost got me, hiding under my garage step. The only good snake is a dead one.



100%


----------



## stihl sawing

Rattlers


----------



## pdqdl

You guys keep this up with the slaughtered snakes, I'm gonna start digging up some pics of my friendly snakes that I've just picked up off the ground and played with. Problem is, I don't have many pictures of these events, so finding 'em will be a challenge.


----------



## Bill G

pdqdl said:


> You guys keep this up with the slaughtered snakes, I'm gonna start digging up some pics of my friendly snakes that I've just picked up off the ground and played with. Problem is, I don't have many pictures of these events, so finding 'em will be a challenge.


Go ahead dig them up. I cannot speak for anyone else but I can sure speak for me. No matter what some want to say snakes do not play an essential part in an ecosystem. Go speak with someone in Ireland and see how their ecosystem is going. How about Hawaii ? They are doing good.


----------



## pdqdl

Pretty much every ecosystem in the world is at least partly messed up by humanity. I can recount to you literally hundreds of islands across the globe where man has introduced rodents with sloppy visits from early sailors, and many native species have gone extinct because there was no natural predation present to resist the invaders. Mongooses have been introduced to combat the rodent problems, and all they did was prey upon the stupid/slow/unwary native animals, and just made it worse.

Rapa Nui (Easter Island), was once a lush, forested island. Mankind moved in, flourished, and wiped out all the trees and most of the animals, too. They screwed up the island so bad that their population was nearly wiped out, too. The introduction and lack of predation of the Polynesian rat is believed to have have helped wipe out the palms by eating all the nuts. So... No snakes, too many rats. Had they brought in some snakes, that would probably have turned out badly too, because that eco-system was balanced to be without either animal.

If you believe that nature is self regulating and that ecosystems are better off without man's interference, then you should stop killing all the snakes you come across. On the other hand, if you think that man is wiser than the creator that put snakes where they are (and the regulators that put up laws to protect them), by all means just keep killing them off. Your little stretch of heaven on earth is probably an ecological microsystem that is already ruined by humanity. Much of this planet has become that way, too.

The snakes don't really have any input or opinion on the topic, so their vote doesn't count, either.


----------



## Bill G

Good snake is a dead snake the same as a good coyote is a dead coyote. 

Neither has a valid part on the balance of nature. I get a chuckle out of those who say snakes keep mice in check. That is completely false. Some want to qoute some internet number they find so quote how many mice a common bull snake eats each week. Now quote how many bull snakes are born each week. Lastly quote how many mice are born each week. Then take a look at a years data


----------



## pdqdl

If the people weren't killing off all the predators and feeding (and housing) the mice as well, there wouldn't be so many of them.

We must live in the environment we create around us. I like one that includes more natural elements; you obviously do not.


----------



## Hexa Fox

Bill G said:


> I here folks say that about them having their place in the cycle of life but truly do not understand it. What good do they provide? I know some like to talk about them eating mice but those folks really do not understand what a snake eats in relation to its population and the said population of mice. For snakes to have any serious effect on mice population there would need to probably be about a billion more. Simple science is mice reproduce faster and in larger numbers than snakes and snakes will NEVER have a serious impact on that



I do not like getting into arguments but honestly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. I mean that in the friendliest way possible as well. I believe it is the Eastern Kingsnake that morons are killing through out the Carolinas and even South of there. The scholarly research is coming out now and they are seeing a "rise in venomous snakes" and "cannot locate the culprit". It is because Kingsnakes are known for their large size and obviously easier to notice for humans and the people moving into these areas are killing them and the venomous snakes they feed upon are growing in numbers. 

Also scientist and biologists have been researching Black Rate Snakes for years and have been hypothesizing that they may prey upon venomous snakes like Copper Heads and may have some immunity to their venom. Well the evidence and data is just now coming in on that and proving it was true. There are plenty of case studies on snakes impact on rodent populations but it is hard because no one has exact numbers. I think it should be obvious if snakes disappeared all together you would see a noticeable increase in rodent populations. 

A place that has done countless studies are universities around the Florida Everglades on the invasive Burmese Pythons that have totally wiped out some Mammals there. I realize this is not a great example because Burmese Pythons are generally larger but if you want an example of how snakes can control populations look no further.


----------



## Hexa Fox

Bill G said:


> Good snake is a dead snake the same as a good coyote is a dead coyote.
> 
> Neither has a valid part on the balance of nature. I get a chuckle out of those who say snakes keep mice in check. That is completely false. Some want to qoute some internet number they find so quote how many mice a common bull snake eats each week. Now quote how many bull snakes are born each week. Lastly quote how many mice are born each week. Then take a look at a years data



Again, totally uneducated and ignorant to say the least. You can just Google and find a commonly accepted statistic is that a Black Rat Snake can consume up to 200 mice per year or 10lbs per year. It is very difficult to show statistics for something that happens in the wild. However, I see several Black Rat Snakes around my property and neighborhood per year which means there are a lot more I never see. If you follow the statistics that means those snakes around my property could potentially eat thousands of mice a year. I would say that has a significant impact to say the least.


----------



## Hexa Fox

Another fact about snakes especially Black Rat Snakes is they are generally docile. Try picking up a wild raccoon, opossum, ground hog or any mammal. I guarantee you it will not go like this video.


----------



## pdqdl

The snakes are not sufficient to control the rodents in a natural situation. As Bill has mentioned, the rodents procreate far too fast, as do the rabbits and a few other small prey. But the hawks, owls, coyotes, ferrets, bobcats, minks, and everything else that snacks on them is more than capable of keeping the rodent population under control.

Each predator has it's own niche, into which the rodents will expand if there are no predators. The snakes can go into the tight spots where none of the other predators can go. They wait stealthily in the confined spaces where there are no hawks, owls, nor bigger mammals. And they catch even the wariest of mice in it's best hiding hole. Shrews are working the tiny recesses, too, but the snakes are probably eating them right along with the mice, voles, and rats.

Argue with that, Bill.
... Oops! He can't, he's off hunting some coyotes, too.


----------



## Bill G

pdqdl said:


> If the people weren't killing off all the predators and feeding (and housing) the mice as well, there wouldn't be so many of them.
> 
> We must live in the environment we create around us. I like one that includes more natural elements; you obviously do not.


What predators are "we" killing off ? How are "we" housing them? How are "we" feeding them?

Do not ever claim some one does not know unless you look in the mirror


----------



## Bill G

Hexa Fox said:


> Another fact about snakes especially Black Rat Snakes is they are generally docile. Try picking up a wild raccoon, opossum, ground hog or any mammal. I guarantee you it will not go like this video.


What does that have to do with snakes?


----------



## Bill G

Hexa Fox said:


> Again, totally uneducated and ignorant to say the least. You can just Google and find a commonly accepted statistic is that a Black Rat Snake can consume up to 200 mice per year or 10lbs per year. I\


You talk about uneducated. How many mice are produced from those littermates in 365 days?


----------



## pdqdl

Bill G said:


> What predators are "we" killing off ? How are "we" housing them? How are "we" feeding them?
> 
> Do not ever claim some one does not know unless you look in the mirror



You said you were hunting coyotes. That is a predator that eats many rodents per day.

I wonder where the rodents would be hanging out if you didn't provide them with structures to move into?

I wonder what the rodents would be eating if they weren't chewing holes into our corn cribs, grain silos, refuse piles, trash cans, cabinets, spilled food from our livestock, etc.

You are a farmer, are you not? I think you know the answer to your questions. Your questions are disengenuous.


----------



## Bill G

pdqdl said:


> You said you were hunting coyotes. That is a predator that eats many rodents per day.
> 
> I wonder where the rodents would be hanging out if you didn't provide them with structures to move into?
> 
> I wonder what the rodents would be eating if they weren't chewing holes into our corn cribs, grain silos, refuse piles, trash cans, cabinets, spilled food from our livestock, etc.
> 
> You are a farmer, are you not? I think you know the answer to your questions. Your questions are disengenuous.


You lack understanding on several levels. Your words

1. _ You said you were hunting coyotes. That is a predator that eats many rodents per day. _

Well that is a misconception by many. They think of a coyote as this happy go luck thing out there clearing the forests of mice. Well they are wrong. Coyotes prey on much larger animals. The kill off as many rabbits as they can. We used to still see a few rabbits in the spring but that is no longer. We have no foxes because the coyotes would kill off the young. I laugh when guys talk about"barn cats" Maybe in some areas but I have none. It is not possible here as the coyotes will get them. My beautiful ex wife had two house cats get killed by coyotes over the last 25 years. She let them out for a bit and all that was left was some fur. Dogs, well they had better be big. Not many dogs can survive an attack by multiple coyotes. The coyotes got one of my dogs many years ago. I have personally seen the carnage they will do to deer. It was prior to 2022 when I got my first phone with a camera or i would have taken a pic. I have seen the slaughter they put on deer.. Cattle, yep they can get them but it is a bit tougher. Most times they wait until a cow is calving and then swipe up the calf. Many years ago they got a cow and a calf here. They chewed the rear end up so bad on the cow she died. Since then it has become more common. Hogs are not much of an issue as most folks have them indoors and coyotes cannot turn door knobs YET. As for sheep if you have to ask then you have never been around sheep. They are the easiest prey for a coyote. When it comes to birds of course they will pick off any chicken they can get to. They even got our guinea hens and they are supposed to be predator proof. I can go on with more but sir if think coyotes are out ther just eating rodents you are dead wrong.

2. You say...._I wonder where the rodents would be hanging out if you didn't provide them with structures to move into?_

That gave me a chuckle. So what would you propose? Should folks tear down every shed, barn, hog unit, cattle feed yard, and grain bin in the country?

3. You say ..._I wonder what the rodents would be eating if they weren't chewing holes into our corn cribs, grain silos, refuse piles, trash cans, cabinets, spilled food from our livestock, etc._

That gave me another chuckle. So once again what would you propose? Should we eliminate stored grain, silage, ground feed, hay, straw? Should we stop even feeding livestock.


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## lone wolf

Bill G said:


> You lack understanding on several levels. Your words
> 
> 1. _ You said you were hunting coyotes. That is a predator that eats many rodents per day. _
> 
> Well that is a misconception by many. They think of a coyote as this happy go luck thing out there clearing the forests of mice. Well they are wrong. Coyotes prey on much larger animals. The kill off as many rabbits as they can. We used to still see a few rabbits in the spring but that is no longer. We have no foxes because the coyotes would kill off the young. I laugh when guys talk about"barn cats" Maybe in some areas but I have none. It is not possible here as the coyotes will get them. My beautiful ex wife had two house cats get killed by coyotes over the last 25 years. She let them out for a bit and all that was left was some fur. Dogs, well they had better be big. Not many dogs can survive an attack by multiple coyotes. The coyotes got one of my dogs many years ago. I have personally seen the carnage they will do to deer. It was prior to 2022 when I got my first phone with a camera or i would have taken a pic. I have seen the slaughter they put on deer.. Cattle, yep they can get them but it is a bit tougher. Most times they wait until a cow is calving and then swipe up the calf. Many years ago they got a cow and a calf here. They chewed the rear end up so bad on the cow she died. Since then it has become more common. Hogs are not much of an issue as most folks have them indoors and coyotes cannot turn door knobs YET. As for sheep if you have to ask then you have never been around sheep. They are the easiest prey for a coyote. When it comes to birds of course they will pick off any chicken they can get to. They even got our guinea hens and they are supposed to be predator proof. I can go on with more but sir if think coyotes are out ther just eating rodents you are dead wrong.
> 
> 2. You say...._I wonder where the rodents would be hanging out if you didn't provide them with structures to move into?_
> 
> That gave me a chuckle. So what would you propose? Should folks tear down every shed, barn, hog unit, cattle feed yard, and grain bin in the country?
> 
> 3. You say ..._I wonder what the rodents would be eating if they weren't chewing holes into our corn cribs, grain silos, refuse piles, trash cans, cabinets, spilled food from our livestock, etc._
> 
> That gave me another chuckle. So once again what would you propose? Should we eliminate stored grain, silage, ground feed, hay, straw? Should we stop even feeding livestock.


Bill I agree on the Coyotes but please stop killing non venomous snakes. Leqrn to tell them apart.


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## Bill G

lone wolf said:


> Bill I agree on the Coyotes but please stop killing non venomous snakes. Leqrn to tell them apart.


Well I have never killed one on another man's property but on mine I still will. I have only killed one this season though. I know some like them but I do not. That is a personal choice and they simply do not fit around here. I tell you what. The next time I have a dozen of them in a basement I will ship them out to you or anyone else who wants them. I am not sure what your location is like but here we still have a lot of well pits and those buggers love them spots. Next time there is a bunch in one I mail them out to or anyone that wants them.


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## Bill G

Hexa Fox said:


> Again, totally uneducated and ignorant to say the least. You can just Google and find a commonly accepted statistic is that a Black Rat Snake can consume up to 200 mice per year or 10lbs per year.


You say "can consume". Well one mouse "can" be responsible for producing 5082 offspring in a year. Tough for that snake to get a handle on that number. You call me uneducated and ignorant? Go read a bit






The Offspring of One Female Mouse - Colonial Pest Control


Is the statistic that 1 pregnant mouse can result in 10,000 baby mice true?




www.colonialpest.com


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## pdqdl

Bill G said:


> You say "can consume". Well one mouse "can" be responsible for producing 5082 offspring in a year. Tough for that snake to get a handle on that number. You call me uneducated and ignorant? Go read a bit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Offspring of One Female Mouse - Colonial Pest Control
> 
> 
> Is the statistic that 1 pregnant mouse can result in 10,000 baby mice true?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.colonialpest.com



You are so limited in your scope of understanding. I know, don't confuse you with any facts, you have already made up your mind.

Use the facts that you just produced: each mouse eaten by a snake might be 5082 less mice you have to poison or fend off next year.
Coyotes are well known pests to the farmers, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that they need environmental protections. 

You haven't mentioned any good reason for hating the non-venomous snakes, though. We know the truth: you just hate snakes, so you kill 'em. I understand. I've been seeing it all my life.


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## stihl sawing

This one scared the crap outta me, i almost stepped on him. i have never seen one of these here and i have been in a lot of woods and places where snakes thrive. I knew he wasn't venomous cause of the head and eyes. he had no viper features. it was cool and he wasn't moving so i got on the phone and googled it. come to find out it's an eastern rat snake.

All the rat snakes i had ever seen here are black. beautiful colors on him, after i found out what he was i moved him to under the deck. I hope to see him again next spring and hopefully he will be bigger. it was a young one but man was he long.


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## Bill G

pdqdl said:


> You are so limited in your scope of understanding. I know, don't confuse you with any facts, you have already made up your mind.
> 
> Use the facts that you just produced: each mouse eaten by a snake might be 5082 less mice you have to poison or fend off next year.
> Coyotes are well known pests to the farmers, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that they need environmental protections.
> 
> You haven't mentioned any good reason for hating the non-venomous snakes, though. We know the truth: you just hate snakes, so you kill 'em. I understand. I've been seeing it all my life.


Yes I hate snakes and I will kill them. You want them in your house give me your address I will send them to ya. You have never provided any reason to not kill them. Ireland does pretty darn good without them and so do other areas. They simply have no positive measurable effect on the ecosystem. I think it is funny how you posted a rant of anti-farmer comments and when called out on them you ignored it. I will pet my doggie and you can pet your snake.


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## tfp

Just caught this bad boy under an hour ago... It was so big (something like 7 or 8 feet) I couldn't lift it with my snake hook or a rake, so I had to pin its head and pick it up. It almost hyper-extended my elbow bending my arm in the wrong direction. Incredibly powerful. I've caught hundreds of snakes, venomous and not. I spent a decade of my life getting out every night I could during summer in rainforest hunting down snakes, geckos, lizards, frogs, and insects to get photos of. Some of the best years of my life. Whatever ya'll do with them is your business.


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## pdqdl

Bill G said:


> Yes I hate snakes and I will kill them. You want them in your house give me your address I will send them to ya. You have never provided any reason to not kill them. Ireland does pretty darn good without them and so do other areas. They simply have no positive measurable effect on the ecosystem. I think it is funny how you posted a rant of ant-farmer comments and when called out on them you ignored it. I will pet my doggie and you can pet your snake.



I have posted no rants, nor failed to comment on any of your "refutation" remarks. 
I'm not gonna do a point by point analysis of everything you post, nor do I feel a need to defend my own points from your responses. 

I realize that I am not going to change your mind about anything, I am only posting here for the other readers of this thread to evaluate.


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## pdqdl

stihl sawing said:


> This one scared the crap outta me, i almost stepped on him. i have never seen one of these here and i have been in a lot of woods and places where snakes thrive. I knew he wasn't venomous cause of the head and eyes. he had no viper features. it was cool and he wasn't moving so i got on the phone and googled it. come to find out it's an eastern rat snake.
> 
> All the rat snakes i had ever seen here are black. beautiful colors on him, after i found out what he was i moved him to under the deck. I hope to see him again next spring and hopefully he will be bigger. it was a young one but man was he long.
> 
> View attachment 1027670



I've been finding those over the years, but I have been thinking they were juvenile black snakes.

See link below:


Black Ratsnake



The Eastern rat snake seems to go through the same juvenile/adult dimorphism, so I think you have a juvenile rat snake, we just don't know the species.

I did find this differentiation guide: "Juvenile _C. constrictor_ lack the eye-jaw stripe, the checkerboard pattern on the venter, the projections on the anterior dorsal blotches, and the stripes on the venter of the tail"

So! All you needed to do was turn it over and look at it's butt (so to speak).


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## pdqdl

Of interest!

There was an eastern rat snake that tried to eat itself once: 

"Mitchell et al. (1982) reported the unusual behavior of autophagy (self-consumption) in a juvenile _P. alleghaniensis_ from Chesterfield County. The snake had been subjected to a sudden change in temperature, began biting its own tail, swallowed it completely (along with as much of the rest of the body as it could), and died. This resulted in three concentric coils, one outside and two inside, with a diameter of 4 cm.


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## Leeroy

We have Eastern Milk Snakes in our 200 year old home. Stone foundation means it is unlikely to stop snakes or mice from ingress. I've witnessed the snakes catching mice, so the snakes can stay. Some I've seen appear more than three feet long. They do startle you from time to time, especially when you are on the throne and they sliver out from underneath the baseboard. 




Stock photo.


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## pdqdl

Speaking of snakes and ecology: How many of you guys have heard of "snake island". Not the Ukraine island with the brave patriots, I'm talking about the island in South America.








This Terrifying Brazilian Island Has the Highest Concentration of Venomous Snakes Anywhere in the World


Brazil's Ilha de Queimada Grande is the only home of one of the world's deadliest, and most endangered, snakes




www.smithsonianmag.com





A deadly viper per square meter is the estimated concentration! So dangerous, human travel to the island is prohibited. This seems to have been a natural event, caused by rising ocean levels and perhaps receding land elevation/

Now this is a pretty obvious case where snakes clearly have an influence on the local ecology. Yes, Bill, I'm talking to you!


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## Bill G

pdqdl said:


> Speaking of snakes and ecology: How many of you guys have heard of "snake island". Not the Ukraine island with the brave patriots, I'm talking about the island in South America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Terrifying Brazilian Island Has the Highest Concentration of Venomous Snakes Anywhere in the World
> 
> 
> Brazil's Ilha de Queimada Grande is the only home of one of the world's deadliest, and most endangered, snakes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.smithsonianmag.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A deadly viper per square meter is the estimated concentration! So dangerous, human travel to the island is prohibited. This seems to have been a natural event, caused by rising ocean levels and perhaps receding land elevation/
> 
> Now this is a pretty obvious case where snakes clearly have an influence on the local ecology. Yes, Bill, I'm talking to you!


Is that a positive or negative influence on ecology?


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## pdqdl

You said:


Bill G said:


> Good snake is a dead snake ...
> 
> Neither has a valid part on the balance of nature. I get a chuckle out of those who say snakes keep mice in check. That is completely false.





Bill G said:


> They simply have no positive measurable effect on the ecosystem



Regarding snake island:


Bill G said:


> Is that a positive or negative influence on ecology?



And I would counter that there are no rats on snake island. Isn't that a positive effect?

It's an evolutionary niche where the snakes have entirely determined the animal population present. There are no warm-blooded animals living on the ground level of the island, only the snakes, and whatever seabirds have learned to dwell there, flying out of reach of the snakes that try to strike at them.

Contrary to your statement quoted above, snakes do keep mice in check, especially when there are no predators to wipe out the snakes.


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## Blue Oaks

I just found a cool little snake. Not 100% sure what kind, but based on this link I'm going with Western Black-headed Snake.






CaliforniaHerps.com, Reptiles and Amphibians of California







californiaherps.com


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## clint53

My last encounter. 8-18-22


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