# This Is What Happens...



## Cody Colston (Mar 8, 2012)

when you combine a novice faller with a slightly-leaning Oak in 20-30 mph winds.







I think it was the third tree I cut. On the only other leaner, which was a much bigger tree, I used a bore cut.

My friend (him on the left, me on the right in following Pic) has a bunch of dead Oaks following last summer's severe drought and asked me if I wanted to harvest some of them before they rotted. I'm always on the lookout for free logs so we spent a day cutting.

I was wary of that particular tree from the get-go and got well clear when I heard the first crack. Perhaps I could have saved it by chasing the hinge but there were lots of other dead trees and I didn't see the value in taking a risk for just one. 

I like to think that some of what I have read here helped me with the falling. I didn't try to swing the trees to any particular lay, just primarily fall with the lean. I'd fall and buck one and my friend would move the logs out with his tractor. We worked from inside-out on that particular stand of Oaks to prevent a "jackstrawed mess." There was no hurry, just a couple of 60 year old lifelong friends enjoying the process. 

Neither of us got hurt and we had a pretty respectable stack of logs at the end of the day. I hauled five Post Oak logs home for milling into lumber. I also came home with even more respect for you guys that do this for a living. It was a whole lot like work.


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## Slamm (Mar 8, 2012)

Well the novice part doesn't really make as much difference, as experienced cutters can still barber a tree. That said, any method that leaves holding wood in the back and allows for the proper "building" of a good hinge would be my prefered choice in that situation, regarding either lean or wind or the combination.

In the last week another cutter and I have cut for, 4 days in 20-30mph winds with gusts as high as 45mph. We have dropped over 300+ trees in that time frame and no barber chairs of any sort or pulled wood and great production. Good technique is probably better than a lot of experience at a bad one. If ever you hear or have to express the words "Chase the Hinge", you are not likely using a very safe method for either your own personal safety or the safety of the lumber held in that tree. As to one's concern over the safety of either is a matter of personal taste and decision, and here is where you will get a varied range of inputs.

Sam


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## madhatte (Mar 8, 2012)

Chasing the hinge is for when it's already halfway over and you want to minimize fiber pull. It's more about a pretty stump and a clean butt log than anything else.


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## Slamm (Mar 8, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Chasing the hinge is for when it's already halfway over and you want to minimize fiber pull. It's more about a pretty stump and a clean butt log than anything else.



Uh, right, because if you don't chase the hinge in many cases you will have fiber pull and barber chairs and slabing the side off of a butt log. With a proper technique you can already have a proper hinge in place that doesn't require you to be standing right next to the stump wishing your saw would cut faster, while you hear the snap, crackle and pop of the butt going to heck, or making potential life changing decisions like should I cut or should I run, LOL.

Sam


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 8, 2012)

Slamm said:


> With a proper technique you can already have a proper hinge in place that doesn't require you to be standing right next to the stump wishing your saw would cut faster, while you hear the snap, crackle and pop of the butt going to heck, or making potential life changing decisions like should I cut or should I run, LOL.
> 
> Sam



Just because you are "chasing the hinge" does not mean that you are using the wrong technique. Minimizing fiber pull and clean butts at the start, saves you time, energy and money. If you are in the position that you are deciding to cut or run, you got there long before you decided to chase anything. In my experience the chair has more to do with a poor for the situation decision, on how you executed your face cut. 99+% of the time I have had a chair or seen the aftermath the face was either of poor quality or insufficient % ratio to the diameter. Snap crackle pop of the wood tells you lots of things other than to just drop and go. Proper technique will vary depending on a good many things and I have rarely set up a cut where I HAD to bore and then later cut a strap. If'in I had to do that on a regular occurrence I would really have to rethink my plan of attack for that particular day or strip. If it was do to wind I think I would seriously consider hanging things up and coming back the next day. If the wind is that bad that you had to bore and strap cut every tree, if you didn't reassess you would have me some what skeptical of either you skills and ability, ego or ignorance to conditions dictating the safety of the day. 



Owl


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## Slamm (Mar 8, 2012)

Spotted Owl said:


> Just because you are "chasing the hinge" does not mean that you are using the wrong technique. Minimizing fiber pull and clean butts at the start, saves you time, energy and money. If you are in the position that you are deciding to cut or run, you got there long before you decided to chase anything. In my experience the chair has more to do with a poor for the situation decision, on how you executed your face cut. 99+% of the time I have had a chair or seen the aftermath the face was either of poor quality or insufficient % ratio to the diameter. Snap crackle pop of the wood tells you lots of things other than to just drop and go. Proper technique will vary depending on a good many things and I have rarely set up a cut where I HAD to bore and then later cut a strap. If'in I had to do that on a regular occurrence I would really have to rethink my plan of attack for that particular day or strip. If it was do to wind I think I would seriously consider hanging things up and coming back the next day. If the wind is that bad that you had to bore and strap cut every tree, if you didn't reassess you would have me some what skeptical of either you skills and ability, ego or ignorance to conditions dictating the safety of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Owl



I know what you are talking about, the time difference is very minor the increase in safety or control of when the tree actually does go over is much higher. In low quality wood or normal conditions or don't leave a strap as much, but when the quality of the wood goes up or the need for more control or near absolute control over when the tree does go over, such as working around skidders going in and out and you are cutting 50-60" oaks, the difference in cutting times between most any of the 40 difference way to cut down a tree is nill, but leaving a back strap and make a good hinge and face, before the tree actually starts to tip over is a great asset in technique, as ones skills or experience in this areas is less and less, read novice/rookie, such things as boring trees out and leaving a back strap is more of a benefit, as it provides a lot more control of when the tree is going to starting going over, in wind....more so.

I'm not knocking, the methods used in production cutting by those that are experienced. I still stump jump some and kerf cut some and simply come in from the back and chase the hinge, its based on conditions, species, control needed or desired and my simple "whim" at the time, LOL. But its one thing for someone who has cut literally 1,000's and 1,000's of trees down to do such things and not even think its risky, its completely another to have someone who doesn't know how to monitor all such things and their own ability to perform under an unknown risk/reward factor to do the same.

Sam


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## Gologit (Mar 8, 2012)

Spotted Owl said:


> Just because you are "chasing the hinge" does not mean that you are using the wrong technique. Minimizing fiber pull and clean butts at the start, saves you time, energy and money. If you are in the position that you are deciding to cut or run, you got there long before you decided to chase anything. In my experience the chair has more to do with a poor for the situation decision, on how you executed your face cut. 99+% of the time I have had a chair or seen the aftermath the face was either of poor quality or insufficient % ratio to the diameter. Snap crackle pop of the wood tells you lots of things other than to just drop and go. Proper technique will vary depending on a good many things and I have rarely set up a cut where I HAD to bore and then later cut a strap. If'in I had to do that on a regular occurrence I would really have to rethink my plan of attack for that particular day or strip. If it was do to wind I think I would seriously consider hanging things up and coming back the next day. If the wind is that bad that you had to bore and strap cut every tree, if you didn't reassess you would have me some what skeptical of either you skills and ability, ego or ignorance to conditions dictating the safety of the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Owl



Well said.


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 8, 2012)

Slamm, I think I understand what you are saying. Also agree to point. I have a hard time teaching a new guy to bore to a holding strap and then unleash it. In the wood I'm used to they just don't know enough. Weights, color of the bore dust, sometimes when needed the smell of the bore dust, I ran into a lot of strap pulling with new guys and the bore/strap method. Many would not leave enough hinge and as soon as the cut the strap it would crush and go willy nilly where ever it wanted depending. I like to save this way for guys that are more seasoned rather than the total/fairly new guys. Also I like to make darned sure they have a good face, deep enough, clean and even, I would rather a guy bore the face to save than to hope and pray when they unleash a potential monster. If it's a monster leaner than I(I know it sounds "bad") let them get there experience else where. I'm not up to teaching that stuff any more. If I ran into people that didn't already have it figured out as much as they do then I might reconsider. But there are times I have enough on my plate with those, that I don't want to have to worry about anything other than where I am and what I am doing.



Owl


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## madhatte (Mar 8, 2012)

I should point out once again that the majority of my falling experience is in PNW Douglas-fir, which has long, strong fibers, which often want to hang on well after I want them to. Chasing the hinge is something I can do if the lay and escape routes are favorable, and I care about what the log looks like. It is in no way something I do every time, nor is it something I advocate doing every time. It's just another option. I try to size each tree up as if it was the first I'd ever seen and make my decisions accordingly. 

As for bore/strap -- the _nawrstiest _barberchair I've ever had was on a maple I bored that way. Sure, it was a leaner, but I figured for sure 45% was enough of a face. WRONG! I ended up just ducking under the face while the butt swung around so I could decide which escape route to dash down. I guess what I'm saying is that there's no end-all-be-all technique that makes all trees equal. If I ever lose my respect for the tree, I expect I won't be here to post about it.


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## Slamm (Mar 8, 2012)

Spotted Owl said:


> Slamm, I think I understand what you are saying. Also agree to point. I have a hard time teaching a new guy to bore to a holding strap and then unleash it. In the wood I'm used to they just don't know enough. Weights, color of the bore dust, sometimes when needed the smell of the bore dust, I ran into a lot of strap pulling with new guys and the bore/strap method. Many would not leave enough hinge and as soon as the cut the strap it would crush and go willy nilly where ever it wanted depending. I like to save this way for guys that are more seasoned rather than the total/fairly new guys. Also I like to make darned sure they have a good face, deep enough, clean and even, I would rather a guy bore the face to save than to hope and pray when they unleash a potential monster. If it's a monster leaner than I(I know it sounds "bad") let them get there experience else where. I'm not up to teaching that stuff any more. If I ran into people that didn't already have it figured out as much as they do then I might reconsider. But there are times I have enough on my plate with those, that I don't want to have to worry about anything other than where I am and what I am doing.
> 
> 
> 
> Owl



I understand your points.

One thing, I can't ever quite understand is that, not to be racist, but the PNW type of guys always hate the bore cut or in my case the leave a backstrap cut, as I leave back straps, but don't always bore cut trees. Anyways, the examples they provide of bore cutting is always of some rookie making rookie mistakes with the method ............. well, any method when improperly executed is going to fail. That doesn't make the method of leaving a backstrap a bad method or slower for that matter.

I have a 18 year old cutter working with me right now. He has little experience, but huge work ethic, luck and smarts, and has watched some of use cut for several months, we started him last year cutting a pulp job. We taught him the bore cut for these bigger trees. I like it because he can get his face cut in gut most of the tree and I can go over and check his angles and such and then zip the back strap and over she goes. Now I don't do this anymore, but he gets basically 95% of the tree cut and gutted and yet still has control of when the tree is going over. Where as, you come in from the back and then stop 5" from the hinge for a "look see", you are going to have some problems on a higher level.

We do a lot of select cutting of timber, and our method of doing it sometimes requires that we cut some and skid some and cut some and skid some so as to not make a mess of things. We might have to wait a little while for a skidder to clean up an area or move some logs out of the way. We are not about to stop cutting and wait for this all to happen so we face and gut the majority of the tree and leave a healthy back strap on those trees that we are cutting and when the skidder is gone, we walk up and in a couple of seconds send the trees over. We work as a team and there is a lot of communication and for the most part we all can skid and all can cut, so with just a look or motion we know what the other is doing or thinking about a tree's position or level of risk.

We cut on windy days, I actually prefer to cut on windy days to a calm day, its like have a huge free wedge at your disposal, but I use different methods for those days too. But from a production basis it sure beats sitting at home.

Good discussion,
Sam


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 9, 2012)

Slamm said:


> I understand your points.
> 
> One thing, I can't ever quite understand is that, not to be racist, but the PNW type of guys always hate the bore cut or in my case the leave a backstrap cut, as I leave back straps, but don't always bore cut trees. Anyways, the examples they provide of bore cutting is always of some rookie making rookie mistakes with the method ............. well, any method when improperly executed is going to fail. That doesn't make the method of leaving a backstrap a bad method or slower for that matter.
> 
> ...





Owl


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## coastalfaller (Mar 9, 2012)

Good points both of you. I would have to say I agree with Owl on the majority of it. Coming from this side of the continent too, it's just the way things are done out here. As for cutting up trees, that's a definite no no around here. Just adds another unnecessary element of risk to an already risky situation. 

The training is much the same as what Owl described.

As for the wind....everyone's comfort level is different with it, and I don't push guys to work in the wind. In fact, I'll call it for some of the wind warriors. Yes, at times it can be a benefit, but what gets me nervous is what's going on behind you're back.....that you can't see. Have a look around your quarter, if there is a large percentage of blowdown already or tops that have been broken off, that should tell you something about the stand you're working in and what happens in the wind. Not a good place to be. Even if it's a relatively well rooted and healthy stand, once you've started opening it up it will change how it reacts in the wind.

I always remember the story of a crew that called it, too windy. The bullbucker went up one side and down the other of them, called them a bunch of pansies etc. Told them if they didn't want to work they could go sit in the crummy and watch him fall, they weren't going home. They went and sat in the crummy, watching him work across a draw from the crummy. They watched in slow motion as a healthy green tree blew over behind the bullbucker as he was working on a tree. Killed him. Nothing they could do to warn him.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 10, 2012)

so I grew up in Wyoming and Colorado spent too much time in Texas and Oklahoma lived in Callifornia for a bit and am currently not welcome in Oregone, currently reside in Washington State with Mt. Pilchuck in my front yard. Midwest I.E. Flat lander wind is very predictable most of the time unless there is an active storm front even then still predictable so a guy can see how the wind is an asset to a point. But out here in the pnw the wind changes constantly not by the hour but by the minute and there is no predicting its strength direction or endurance. Mix that with 150-200+ foot tall trees (read Masts) thats a lot of leverage. So anything more than a little breeze most guys get a little nervous falling around here Hell some people don't even leave their houses when the wind gets over 40 mph


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## hammerlogging (Mar 10, 2012)

no doubt the wind can be different in the mountains than on the rolling or flat lands. Up and over ridges, swirling in and out of hollers, blowing one way hard, then a pause, then blowing the other way hard, then a longer pause, clouds moving one way wind blowing another, and in the case of calling it due to the wind, getting 1400' feet vertical elev. down to the truck and it ain't blowing at all thiinking damn, should be up there cutting. Wind is different in varying topography, no doubt.

To the OP, a dead tree can be worse, a real contributor to your situation, same growing tree that was green may not have even had any barber chair concern without a real serious ####-up.


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## madhatte (Mar 10, 2012)

I just put down a Beech in a yard today for a friend. First time I ever cut a beech. Thing hung onto its hinge when the face closed! Had to cut the hinge free with the tree at about 30 degrees from vertical. That was weird. No harm, though. Just fell a little slow.


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## imagineero (Mar 11, 2012)

There's a lot to be said for knowing your local. If you work mainly with only a few species in one area, then you can build your skills and knowledge to mastery over time. The more knowledge and skills you build, the closer you can come to taking it to the edge, or knowingly leave yourself more margin when you need it.

Every tree is different though, and varies by terrain too. I do residential tree removal, so the species vary a lot, and the growing conditions of each species varies a lot too. I leave myself as big of a margin as I can because there are just too many variables to be cutting it fine, especially working around people's property. If I'm climbing the tree, The first few cuts I take are feeling the tree out, seeing how it folds, snaps, flexes, the holding wood, how big of a hinge I need. When I get a feel for that tree I know where my limits are, then you can work around it. Pull ropes, rigging and hinges/cutting techniques all work together to get the result you need.

Shaun


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## tramp bushler (Mar 12, 2012)

coastalfaller said:


> Good points both of you. I would have to say I agree with Owl on the majority of it. Coming from this side of the continent too, it's just the way things are done out here. As for cutting up trees, that's a definite no no around here. Just adds another unnecessary element of risk to an already risky situation.
> 
> The training is much the same as what Owl described.
> 
> ...




On the coast , in the oldgrowth of Southeast the wind is just a killer waiting to happen .
Sam , I can understand your method


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## tramp bushler (Mar 12, 2012)

There are/ were almost no guys younger than 25 yrs old falling up here . There are so many variables possibly more than anywhere else . 
I have a tremendus amount of respect for Tarzan because he cut up here and lived . And he was young . 
People just can't believe how deadly it is . I've had hemlock , spruce and cedar leaving the stump . Backcut raised 2-4", have a swirling wind hit them, slam the backcut shut and chair over backwards . . Timber 3-4' on the stump 120-180' tall timber . Have had spruce and yellow cedar 4-7' on the stump unwind like a barbers sign before they fell . And bring my saw down the mountain with them . 

It was good training for what I do now . Get smacked at 35 below and you are dead . 
Cutting in the wind is best avoided in Alaska . Perhaps in shorter will rooted healthy timber it wouldn't be as dangerous .


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## coastalfaller (Mar 12, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> There are/ were almost no guys younger than 25 yrs old falling up here . There are so many variables possibly more than anywhere else .
> I have a tremendus amount of respect for Tarzan because he cut up here and lived . And he was young .
> People just can't believe how deadly it is . I've had hemlock , spruce and cedar leaving the stump . Backcut raised 2-4", have a swirling wind hit them, slam the backcut shut and chair over backwards . . Timber 3-4' on the stump 120-180' tall timber . Have had spruce and yellow cedar 4-7' on the stump unwind like a barbers sign before they fell . And bring my saw down the mountain with them .
> 
> ...



Yep, I agree, Tramp. Some of those yellow cedars are so twisted, I half expect them to just explode and uncoil as soon as you touch them with a saw! My favorites are the slabby snags, the ones that you actually have to fall each slab individually. And in case it was lost in translation, that was meant to be totally sarcastic!


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## tramp bushler (Mar 12, 2012)

Ya know Jordan , alot of new guys to big coastal red cedar snags make 2 bad mistakes. 
1 is thinking they can take a same size green tree and drive one over . All they do is slab vertically . Then you still have to go and actually fall it . Good job for an old junk saw 

The 2nd is thinking that all red cedar snag stobs will stay in one piece when its spring time . All that frozen wet red goo inside them stays put and the thawed out shell blows out . One almost got me once and I've had a bunch do it . . All stooled up on a mound . 60" snag stump that in the summer or fall I
s good fast money all the sudden is trying to kill you in april . Won't even talk about fresh blowdown in rock bluffs


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## coastalfaller (Mar 12, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Ya know Jordan , alot of new guys to big coastal red cedar snags make 2 bad mistakes.
> 1 is thinking they can take a same size green tree and drive one over . All they do is slab vertically . Then you still have to go and actually fall it . Good job for an old junk saw
> 
> The 2nd is thinking that all red cedar snag stobs will stay in one piece when its spring time . All that frozen wet red goo inside them stays put and the thawed out shell blows out . One almost got me once and I've had a bunch do it . . All stooled up on a mound . 60" snag stump that in the summer or fall I
> s good fast money all the sudden is trying to kill you in april . Won't even talk about fresh blowdown in rock bluffs



No we won't go there! Had some pretty good wind on Vancouver Island today, made for some carnage. Some of the oldtimers were saying it was one of the worst storms they can remember. Set a wind speed record in places. I'm cringing at the thought of some of our settings now. One nice OG setting is right on the edge of some old slash and already had some blowdown in it. Another is a second growth setting, tall 175 ft tall whippy wood that's just begging to be blown over. Might be pretty nasty.


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## HorseFaller (Mar 13, 2012)

coastalfaller said:


> No we won't go there! Had some pretty good wind on Vancouver Island today, made for some carnage. Some of the oldtimers were saying it was one of the worst storms they can remember. Set a wind speed record in places. I'm cringing at the thought of some of our settings now. One nice OG setting is right on the edge of some old slash and already had some blowdown in it. Another is a second growth setting, tall 175 ft tall whippy wood that's just begging to be blown over. Might be pretty nasty.



Been nasty here to. Surprised to hear saws running today at all. Hope they where just on the landing. 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=48.916304,-122.121196


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## tramp bushler (Mar 13, 2012)

When I'm in fresh blow down . I don't buck for length or grade . I buck to stay alive . You and yiur guys be careful in there !!


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## Samlock (Mar 13, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> When I'm in fresh blow down . I don't buck for length or grade . I buck to stay alive . You and yiur guys be careful in there !!



You can say that again, Tramp.


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## madhatte (Mar 13, 2012)

Headin' out today to one of my units that got busted up pretty bad in January. I expect it's a real mess now.


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## coastalfaller (Mar 13, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> When I'm in fresh blow down . I don't buck for length or grade . I buck to stay alive . You and yiur guys be careful in there !!



Absolutely, I wholeheartedly agree!


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## wyk (Mar 14, 2012)

madhatte said:


> I just put down a Beech in a yard today for a friend. First time I ever cut a beech. Thing hung onto its hinge when the face closed! Had to cut the hinge free with the tree at about 30 degrees from vertical. That was weird. No harm, though. Just fell a little slow.



Smaller one? In England I would cut the hinge thin as I dared on the beech and ash 18" or thinner so they would break the hinge. Otherwise we had to clean them up. I even had a 2' beech hold it's hinge when I cut it very close to the ground. Blah. I don't miss cutting beech and ash.


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## madhatte (Mar 14, 2012)

I think this one was about 28" on the butt. I left 2" of hinge at first, and it tipped easily enough, but when it held the hinge, I was just dumbfounded. Goes to show -- not everything behaves like good ol' DF when you cut it! Even after it went over, one corner pulled the stump. I suppose now I'd nip the corners but I had no way of knowing that ahead of time. I wonder if there's a cutting guide anywhere with this sort of practical knowledge in it, listed by species? That would be as useful thing for somebody to write, if it doesn't already exist.


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## treemandan (Mar 14, 2012)

Ditch and run - a good choice. I would have been out of there like lightening too.


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## Spotted Owl (Mar 14, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> When I'm in fresh blow down . I don't buck for length or grade . I buck to stay alive . You and yiur guys be careful in there !!



Strait up no BS words to live by there.

Well said.



Owl


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## tramp bushler (Mar 14, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Headin' out today to one of my units that got busted up pretty bad in January. I expect it's a real mess now.



Hey ; how are the units your working in . Lot of blowdown ??


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## madhatte (Mar 14, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Hey ; how are the units your working in . Lot of blowdown ??



Hardwoods took it WAY harder than the softwoods. Blowdown in the fir is mostly just the usual root rot and loose branches. Maple, oak, alder, cottonwood: carnage. What a mess. Plenty of firewood for everybody, that's for sure!


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## wyk (Mar 15, 2012)

madhatte said:


> I think this one was about 28" on the butt. I left 2" of hinge at first, and it tipped easily enough, but when it held the hinge, I was just dumbfounded. Goes to show -- not everything behaves like good ol' DF when you cut it! Even after it went over, one corner pulled the stump. I suppose now I'd nip the corners but I had no way of knowing that ahead of time. I wonder if there's a cutting guide anywhere with this sort of practical knowledge in it, listed by species? That would be as useful thing for somebody to write, if it doesn't already exist.



On the Ash and the Beech larger than 18", I would nick the side so they didn't pull or split if they wanted to fall early. Some guys take a significant amount off those trees in England before cutting the back. We had to cut close to the ground, so on some of the larger ones we had to cut a lot of buttress off as well. Just a pain, all so IKEA can make cheap furniture. I blame the vikings.


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## tramp bushler (Mar 16, 2012)

Mad . There is . I pay close attention to Hammer and Bitzer when they write about falling hardwood .
. Hammer has posted some good pics . Bitzer has too . No doubt there are others but I studied them . 

We get pretty myopic on the west coast . And in a sense rightly so . But there are good and right tecniques for the hardwoods . Here in the west any half decent cutter wouldn't face up and back up several trees while a skidder was running around under them . But Slamm does and it works for them . I figure he knows somethings I don't . 

None of them have ever tried to tell my how to fall Sitks Spruce snags off a rock bluff so I figure I'll rd wpay attention when they explain how to fall hard wood .


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## Slamm (Mar 16, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Mad . There is . I pay close attention to Hammer and Bitzer when they write about falling hardwood .
> . Hammer has posted some good pics . Bitzer has too . No doubt there are others but I studied them .
> 
> We get pretty myopic on the west coast . And in a sense rightly so . But there are good and right tecniques for the hardwoods . Here in the west any half decent cutter wouldn't face up and back up several trees while a skidder was running around under them . But Slamm does and it works for them . I figure he knows somethings I don't .
> ...



I wouldn't say I know something you don't, just that we know our trees and we as a team trust each other and we know when we can push it and when we can't................... and we push when we can. Its certainly not for everyone and of the group of guys that work for us, there are just a few of us that will push things, usually its the ones that rode bulls together, LOL.

Sam


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