# Homemade swing blade idea...



## lapeer20m (Jul 15, 2014)

I just stumbled upon the swing blade sawmill concept for the first time. 

I am a master tinkerer and pride myself on building practical machines for free or cheap. 

My idea is to build a swing blade sawmill using a 12" ripping circular saw blade and 5hp electric motor. This should allow me to make dimensional lumber 4x4 and smaller. 

I can likely build the machine for $300 or less. 

I have a forest full of mature red pines and lots of projects to build.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 15, 2014)

It will be under powered in anything but shallow cuts... I've seen small models with smaller electric motors at shows and they had to go quite slow in deeper cuts. I wasn't impressed at all.

SR


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## BobL (Jul 16, 2014)

I agree with RS. 
As a guide the smallest Lucas Mill Electric that makes 8" cuts uses a 3 Phase 15HP motor so making 4" cuts would see to require a 7.5HP motor .


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## rwthom279 (Jul 16, 2014)

One issue to consider is how many teeth you'll have in the cut using a ripping blade. There is a reason the swing mills only have 5 or so teeth and that is with ALOT more HP going to the blade. 

Hook angle and gullet capacity of the blade also has an HUGE effect on efficiency. You need wider carbide teeth to make a larger kerf than the std. teeth the ripping blade comes with. You're looking at cutting green wood... the blade needs room for the body of the saw to pass through, unobstructed, otherwise you'll have issues with ALOT of heat from friction. I'm sure you've tried to rip green stock on a table saw... not a pleasant experience and somewhat dangerous.

Not knockin' your idea, just sharing info that is pertinent to avoid the inevitable headaches a DIY project ALWAYS has.


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## lapeer20m (Jul 16, 2014)

Some great feedback, thank you. I will hold off until I find the money to do it the right way. 

I have a 10hp single phase electric motor, but I think it would be less expensive to find a gas engine and a 90 degree gearbox than to upgrade the electrical service.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 16, 2014)

That 10hp electric would make one heck of a band saw mill, and a BSM is a MUCH better by far "all around" saw mill!

Swing mills are specialized mills and don't do many saw milling operations, very well...

SR


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## lapeer20m (Jul 17, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> That 10hp electric would make one heck of a band saw mill, and a BSM is a MUCH better by far "all around" saw mill!
> 
> Swing mills are specialized mills and don't do many saw milling operations, very well...
> 
> SR



I could build a ban saw mill but the little bit of research I did indicated that a swing blade would be faster and be a better tool for creating dimensional lumber. All that rotating of the log with a ban saw appeared to be the biggest disadvantage.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 17, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> I could build a ban saw mill but the little bit of research I did indicated that a swing blade would be faster and be a better tool for creating dimensional lumber. All that rotating of the log with a ban saw appeared to be the biggest disadvantage.


 A bigger swing mill is faster to turn out....say, 2x4's than the average BSM, but a small swinger like you are talking about sure isn't, and bigger construction lumber is VERY difficult on a swinger, but easy for a BSM.

You don't have a lot of log turning to mill out construction lumber... BUT, you DO if you want the BEST grade of lumber out of any log, and that means you will have to turn the log no matter what kind of mill you use to mill that log. That's something a swinger doesn't do well or at all...

Small logs are another thing a swinger doesn't do well, but they aren't a problem for a BSM and you won't have the wide wasteful kerf of a swinger while trying to get lumber out of those small logs.

Anyway, I'm not trying to talk you into a BSM, I'd rather trade you a 16hp gas motor I have here for your 10hp electric motor. lol

SR


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## Jim Timber (Jul 18, 2014)

3ph motors generate far more torque than single phase do. I wouldn't use a single phase 10hp on a saw, I'd get a 3ph and a variable frequency drive to run it. Static phase converters are virtually worthless as you end up making it run like a single phase motor in the end, and you lose the same amount of useful power at the same time.


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## rwthom279 (Jul 18, 2014)

lapeer20m,

The type of product and volume you want to produce will dictate the mill that best suits your needs. Sawyer Rob makes some very valid points as to the capabilities of a BSM and depending on what you plan to produce, a BSM may be the best mill for your needs. Yes, there is alot log turning on a BSM and to produce straight (no crook) construction lumber. Depending on how the log behaves, you may have to saw oversize and then trim cut to final dimension. Edging on the mill requires handling material a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th+ time before it becomes a final acceptable product. Your observation and concern of the log turning involved on a BSM is well founded. Without mechanical log handling capabilities, this is a very physical task. If you are after the BEST a log can produce, you HAVE to turn the log either to deal with tension/stress and/or to get the best quality board that particular has to offer.

With a swing mill, log handling is kept to a minimum. If you don't have, or only have minimal support equipment it does make this style sawmill more desirable. Yes, a swing mill will saw ALOT of lumber in short order with only one man vs. a fully hydro. bandmill. Material handling is minimal: one pass up, one back and you have a board that is DONE and ready to load. No log turning, no flitches to reload, flip and edge again and take back off the mill AGAIN. But, you are VERY limited to your maximum cut width. And the fact the log is stationary doesn't allow to work around defects or to switch faces to get away from a defect... what you see is what you get. If you're gonna need a lot of wider boards, double cutting is an option, but its not as easy as the manufacturers make it look... it actually kinda dangerous if not done properly.

I do not agree with the kerf loss aspect. Since you can choose each dimension as you cut, waste is minimized. Yeah, a swinger has a 50%-75% wider kerf, you get that back in reduced waste that you would otherwise get in edging on a BSM. This is actually an advantage in smaller logs. BUT, if you are breaking down a bigger logs into 1x6's or beveled siding, you're gonna loose SEVERAL boards into the sawdust pile. Can you get straight lumber from a swinger, YES, but you have to approach the log breakdown completely different than you would on a BSM.

Both types of mills have advantages/disadvantages. Each type can easily outperform the other depending on the product that is desired. Sounds like you've already done some research and that is the most important part. That's the ONLY way a person can make an educated decision. Sorry for the long reply, but I wanted to offer a few more details from my personal experiences. Hope it is of some use.

BTW, the smallest Lucas can only saw 4" in a single pass (maximum depth of cut). The only way it can saw 8" is to rotate the carriage and saw 4" from the otherside so the cuts intersect. So its putting 15hp 3ph to the blade for a 4" max. cut, not 7.5 hp as mentioned earlier.


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## rwthom279 (Jul 18, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> 3ph motors generate far more torque than single phase do. I wouldn't use a single phase 10hp on a saw, I'd get a 3ph and a variable frequency drive to run it. Static phase converters are virtually worthless as you end up making it run like a single phase motor in the end, and you lose the same amount of useful power at the same time.



Jim,

Sounds like you've been down this road before?? Thanks for the info, learned something new this evening!! Thanks!!!!


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 19, 2014)

Swingers aren't magic, if there's tension in the log, the lumber will have it no matter what mill you use to take it out. The above post makes it sound like you turn and turn a log on a BSM, but a swinger doesn't need to, this just isn't true.

I've seen swingers turn out some poor lumber when milling a log with tension, there's just no getting around it, it's something every mill has to deal with from time to time... A tuned up BSM will turn out just as accurate of lumber as a swinger and all with much less kerf, making saw dust!

Milling out construction lumber on a BSM has minimal turning and goes quite fast, turning really isn't a big deal, even on a manual mill, as a winch will easily turn the biggest logs and smaller logs are easy to turn with a longer handled cant hook.

It's just not as big a deal at the swinger owners would have you believe.

SR


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## rwthom279 (Jul 19, 2014)

This reply started out much longer since the information it contained would have been mostly redundant. Again, each mill has its place and application. It all depends on what the OP has access to, application and OP's expectations of the final product the mill the builds produces.

Manufacturers of machinery in general try to make their product sound like the "best" and for someone new to sawmilling, sorting through all the fluff and propaganda can be impossible.  Both type mills have their place. Probably the best approach for the OP, would be to go and visit both a BSM and a swinger with a proficient operator at the controls... preferably in the local area if possible. If OP observed one type operate in Maine and then went to Alabama to watch another, it would be a waste... different wood from different environments even if the species was the same.

There is no substitution for seeing touching and possibly operating a mill. YouTube is a good venue for certain things, but it does no justice when it comes to machinery function and capability. It would be like purchasing a truck or chainsaw solely based upon feedback from online revues, social media and videos... and *never* taking a test drive. 

Being since this is a DIY project, the OP may stumble across a way to build a machine that will be the next best thing since sliced bread and soft toilet paper.


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## lapeer20m (Jul 19, 2014)

Thanks for all the input! I realize now
That electric is likely NOT the way to go if I were to build a swinger. 

I live on 60 mostly wooded acres and have tons of "government pines." Red pine trees planted in rows. Most are easily 100' tall.

I have the desire to build a few projects like a woodshed, some elevated deer blinds, and make repairs to a rustic log cabin. Who knows what else I will stumble upon along the way. 

I don't know what type of market exists for rough sawn lumber in my area but if i stumble upon a product that others are willing to pay for I may do a bit of hobby sawing. However I think this is likely a bit over optimistic to think I can make money turning logs into lumber so this is clearly not my main focus. 

It would likely be cheaper and easier to simply purchase wood, or even hire a portable sawmill operator to come to the property and saw logs for me. Neither of those options would be as satisfying as actually cutting the boards myself from a machine that I built.

Maybe a bsm is a better fit for my needs. None of my pine trees would be too big around for a bsm.


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## rwthom279 (Jul 19, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> ... even hire a portable sawmill operator to come to the property and saw logs for me ...



Why not go that route to start with and get your feet wet?? I'm sure you could locate both a BSM and swinger in your area. Might be money WELL invested. You'd get to see the mills operate, you'd get some lumber to hold you over until yours was complete and after observing both, I'm sure the creative juices for your DIY mill would be flowing... regardless of the type you decide to build.


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## lapeer20m (Jul 19, 2014)




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## Jim Timber (Jul 22, 2014)

rwthom279 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Sounds like you've been down this road before?? Thanks for the info, learned something new this evening!! Thanks!!!!



Variable Frequency Drives don't have the same "stiffness" that 3ph line power has either, but it's a big jump from what makes a single phase motor spin. Thinking about it more, if you thought 10hp would work with 3ph, I'd get a 20hp 3ph motor and VFD rated for 40 (need to over-size the VFD by 50% to run on two legs [single phase 220v] and I'd bump it up the extra 10 because of the dynamic loading of a saw). Surplus components - that'll run you somewhere around $2K on the low side. The other option is a 3ph generator capable of running your 15hp motor (generator will have a little more line stiffness than the VFD), and that's also going to run you around $2K.

So yes, electric mills without utility line power to run them aren't the most cost effective low use option out there, but if you were talking about a production facility these start up costs would save you on fuel over the long run. Then again, if you're doing production volume a stand alone re-saw for second operation would probably make more sense than a swingblade anyway.

As for "going down this road before" - I've converted multiple machine tools to run on single phase power as 3ph isn't even an option at my home shop. I started with a rotary phase converter (I built), and soon learned there was much to be gained by investing in VFD's for each machine instead, even though the buy-in cost was hundreds of dollars per machine just for parts as I'm able to do the conversions. With my "new" digital power meter (the power companies method of billing me - they smoked the old analog one the day they switched our mains from the old house connection to my then new shop addition), the regenerated current (motor braking) and line noise makes it think I'm making more electricity than I'm using (meter spins backwards under load).  And that's a beautiful thing!


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