# Cinsidering Woodland Mills BSM for small farmstead



## Rearden

Wife number last and I have finally decided to flee our rural suburb and run to the Eastern Shore DelMarVa peninsula. Found a nice ten acres on the water cheap, and while the house is small and dated, I prefer it over the McMansion lifestyle we are leaving behind. We've been raising most of our own food and some poultry for a while now and figure the country digs is a better fit for adding some minor livestock - maybe a steer and a pig or two. Anyway, the land is mostly wooded and includes a 100' buffer along the water where we can't do much of anything, but I have been told that Big Bruva will tolerate some selective harvesting within that area as long as we replant, etc., etc.

Since there appears to be a fairly good number of mixed hardwoods (mostly red and white oak) of decent size (24 - 30") for milling, we were thinking that a band saw mill might prove well worthwhile - given the number of projects, fences, pens, stable, and out buildings that I'll likely be constructing. We have family in the area who also have some nice older hardwood stands that they would be interested in thinning and clearing, so the investment looks like it can pay for itself fairly quickly. That said, I hadn't really looked at any of these for years. The first one that kind'a caught my eye was also one of the least expensive (imagine that?). It's made by Canadians... but I'm willing to take a gamble on it anyway.

Woodland Mills &mdash; Portable Sawmill

Just kidding... it's actually made for a Canadian company by Chi-coms (even more shocking, eh?). The guts of it seem straight forward enough. It uses off the shelf bearings, blades and belts, and comes with a 9.5 hp Kohler Commander engine. I have a similar model on my Troy tiller, and it has been a tank for almost 20 years, so I'm pretty comfortable with the whole of it. Total with an extra track extension for cutting up to 16', plus a few doo-dads and shipping would end up runnin' about $3,700 delivered. There's already a nice pole barn on the property where it can live, and I've got the steel, trailer parts and welder to fab up a means of making it portable. Just curious if anyone has any other ideas that might provide similar capabilities in that price range. I do prefer Honda power over all others, but the Kohler is a comfortable second choice. I also have an 18" re-saw band saw, jointers, a gang saw, moulder, drum sanders, and several planers that'll be moving to my new shop, so I can finish just about anything that the mill can cut.

Also had an idea that I was thinking of adding later. Years ago my brother and I built an expanding cargo trailer that enclosed a partial cabinet/trim shop on wheels. The sides swung up and out, the roof would elevate, and the resultant workspace was an open pavilion almost three times the foot print of the trailer. We started with hand cranked double leg levelers, but that got old real quick, plus it was still hard to get just right unless the parking area was billiard table flat. What we ended up doing was re-purposing some old hydraulic cylinders and installing a 12v. pump, reservoir, valves and what not to make it a lot more single point control with no sweat. Looking at some of the log lifting arms that others have fabricated or bought with their mill, I can see that these would all be worthy additions. Not sure about sticking with the 12v. power and batteries, but I've got a few generators to spare as well - so maybe that could be worked in. Anyway ideas, suggestions, whatever, are welcomed... that's how I've learned pretty much everything I know, and I'm not too smart or proud to not copy.

I wasn't initially interested in starting another business or career, but I do build strip kayaks, canoes, cabinetry and some furniture still (as health allows), and I'll have the time and space to dedicate to drying, so this thing may end up getting the crap worked out of it in the long term.


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## qbilder

Shop around & maybe expand your budget if possible. EZ-Boardwalk, Norwood, Linn, WoodMizer, etc. all make nice mills & are made here in country. Hudson isn't too far from where you're at and they make a range of saws relatively near your budget. The EZ-Boardwalk Jr. is in the same price range but much heavier duty, 13hp Honda, & will slab through any of the bigger logs that you can handle. Spending a few more dollars gets you a whole lot more saw, American made. It's your decision to make, your money to spend. Nobody can tell you how to spend it. I like your plans & it seems you are in a good position to have a mill. Good luck whatever you decide


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## Cody Colston

I agree with qbuilder. While the 9.5 hp Woodland Mills BSM is sufficient for a hobbiest woodworker cutting their own lumber, it will struggle to cut that 24" - 30" diameter Oak you referenced. My mill has a 13 hp engine and it struggles with Oak logs of that size.

I'd advise you to get the most mill you can afford, even considering hydraulic mills. Handling and turning large, heavy logs is not easy when doing it manually. In fact, it's a whole lot like work.


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## Rearden

qbilder said:


> Shop around & maybe expand your budget if possible. EZ-Boardwalk, Norwood, Linn, WoodMizer, etc. all make nice mills & are made here in country. Hudson isn't too far from where you're at and they make a range of saws relatively near your budget. The EZ-Boardwalk Jr. is in the same price range but much heavier duty, 13hp Honda, & will slab through any of the bigger logs that you can handle. Spending a few more dollars gets you a whole lot more saw, American made. It's your decision to make, your money to spend. Nobody can tell you how to spend it. I like your plans & it seems you are in a good position to have a mill. Good luck whatever you decide



Damn you and your suggesting Wood Mizer. First looked at them years ago and thought they were great... but beyond my means at the time. Started looking at the EZ Boardwalk Jr. and that seemed promising, particularly with the Honda power, and I should'a stopped there. But Nooo... now I want a 25 hp Honda and all hydraulic handling... what have you done?! 
Were it up to me, I never have any difficulty rationalizing the exchange of scrip for quality tools... it's just that I have this wife thing... and sometimes she's a little less enthusiastic about my ideas. Somethin' about wantin' a new car or some such nonsense. I offered to get her some spiffy new seat covers and a new car scented air freshener, but she ain't havin' it. Might have to go dig up some of my shiny metal for this one.



Cody Colston said:


> I agree with qbuilder. While the 9.5 hp Woodland Mills BSM is sufficient for a hobbiest woodworker cutting their own lumber, it will struggle to cut that 24" - 30" diameter Oak you referenced. My mill has a 13 hp engine and it struggles with Oak logs of that size.
> 
> I'd advise you to get the most mill you can afford, even considering hydraulic mills. Handling and turning large, heavy logs is not easy when doing it manually. In fact, it's a whole lot like work.



Point well taken. While I do have a grapple for our tractor for movin' logs, that ain't gonna turn 'em, and loadin' could be a little touchy. You're also right on about the oak warning, since 90% of what I anticipate cutting down there is gonna be red and white oak most days. Like I said, I can fabricate just about anything, and the Linn packages are another possibility on that note, but I was wonderin' just what you mean when you say that yours struggles even with the 13 hp Honda. Also, does that 15 degree cutting angle on the EZ Boardwalk Jr. really make that much difference, or is it just snake oil?


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## Sawyer Rob

The most impressive starter mill i've ever milled with, is Norwoods ML26.







It really is a well built built, great design that does a great job. I'd say it's worth the extra money in a heardbeat!

SR


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## Rearden

Sawyer Rob said:


> The most impressive starter mill i've ever milled with, is Norwoods ML26.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It really is a well built built, great design that does a great job. I'd say it's worth the extra money in a heardbeat!
> 
> SR



Not tryin' to be a smart ass, but what other mills have you worked with? Not disrespectin' your opinion, just trying to qualify your point of reference.

I did work with an old circ saw mill many moons ago, while helping some friends build a cabin in the U.P. I could'a sworn it was made by Wood Mizer, but I could be wrong. At that time I hadn't even heard of band saw mills, but the pine logs we were processing were plentiful and the saw was already there (and a scary sumbeach it was as I recall). I've also built a couple of CNC wood milling machines that used similar principals in terms of guide rails and bearings to carry a cutting head/spindle. Even in those relatively light duty applications - by comparison in terms of the weights involved, even specially hardened rails wear, and of course bearings eventually fail. I've worked with regular shop band saws quite a bit, and the composition of the wheels & tires (driving the blade) were significant (eg., comparing iron vs. alloy, along with how they are adjusted to planar and supported), but I'm at a loss as to how all of this relates when sawing heavy timbers. Should I be more concerned with the saw's drive mechanism or the carriage or rails for example. Also finishes and welds can vary widely. With the Chi-com mill, I pretty much know that I'll be welding up their bolt together assemblies and dealing with a suspect finish. Likewise their castings often leave a lot to be desired, but most of the manufacturers of band saw components have their wheels cast in China anyway, so with this globalization crap you never really know just what you're really getting. 

Not necessarily my primary plan, but I may end up dragging this thing all over three counties. I had already figured on using some of the steel and trailer parts that I have to make the mill mobile. Other than the engine power choices, I'm curious about any experiences that people might have with the variety of carriages and rail systems, among other things. It's pretty obvious that the accessories to lift and position logs are a great item, but I'm thinkin' I can add them to almost anybody's mill. They all seem capable, just wondering if anybody has any more 'A' - 'B' comparative working experiences. I appreciate all of the input - even if I may not sound like it. Just tryin' to be thorough and avoid buyin' a Beta Max.


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## qbilder

I'm not sure if the EZBW angle does anything or not. Folks who have the mills all claim it cuts real nice & effortless. I do know that a slight angle changes the way wood will cut, but not sure the mill has enough angle to make that difference. When quartering a log with chainsaw, holding it at an angle increases speed and peels off shavings. Running straight through like a mill, and the cutting is a little slower & I get chips more than peelings. Whether or not the same effect occurs with band mills or not, I simply don't know but would assume so. What I do know is that the EZBW has a very sturdy frame/track and is rock solid. It's much heavier duty than the Woodland Mills saw. That will make a difference if you are milling fair sized oaks. It will also cut through a 30" log, meaning it was designed to support such a beast. My opinion (opinions are like #######s) is that the EZBW is in a completely different league than the Woodland. It's the heaviest & most capable saw I have seen under $5G's. 

I have a mill that's modeled after the Linn 1900. It also has a 30" throat, but the track isn't as heavy as the EZBW. It has a 16hp electric start & does just fine cutting through anything I want to cut. It has bogged down a little on larger seasoned oak logs, but I haven't seen it struggle on anything yet. I have cut white oak, cherry, hard maple, pine, walnut, & cedar that pushed it's size limits and it handled them fine. I'm a big, young, strong guy and can handle any log that will fit the mill with a 60" Log-rite cant hook. But I may want some hydraulics later on. If I had it to do over, i'd have bought the EZBW instead of what I got. I was already familiar with Linn though from working with it on the family farm & knew what I would be getting with my own. I needed a big throat for quarter sawing as I mostly cut quartered maple for billiard cues. 

Here's a pic of a cherry slab I cut for my old man. The mill had no problem slicing through the log. It's going to be a bar top in their cabin. Not something I typically cut, but I can when I want to. As far as I know, the EZBW is the only band mill under $6G's with the capability of making a slab this large. Like I say, not a necessity by any means, but a nice capability to have.


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## Sawyer Rob

I bought my first BSM in 1996, i've went to the EXPO's and many sawmill shows since and i'll mill on anything anyone will let me run.

I probably don't remember them all, but the starter mills off the top of my head are, Woodmizer 10, 15, at least 3 or 4 Hudsons, the Johnsered wouldn't even work so i couldn't try that one. Norwoods Lumbermate Mark 3, 4, 5, LM2000, 24, 26, 34... Ezzboardwalk model compared to the LM2000 (forget the model. Timber King 1200 ? and one other one, Baker, don't know the model and several others. SO, i do have some knowledge of BSM's and how they compare.

SR


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## hamish

I own a Norwood ML26, and its been great, but I have also used the Woodland Mills HM126.

Both of them get the job done, some things on each mill work better than the other, and some not. One point, the Norwood spares are much more complex and tend to be pricey, not an each fab yourself or local shop project. Most on the Woodland can be fabbed or sourced locally. Mill decision really depends upon the end user and there expectations/abilities.

9hp is more than enough to cut the hardest of hardwood, all that is affected is ones feed rate.

Watch how they both work, then consider if you want to gas and go or lock, lock, then make sure you didn't forget to lock one, then gas and go!


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## Rearden

qbilder said:


> I'm not sure if the EZBW angle does anything or not. Folks who have the mills all claim it cuts real nice & effortless. I do know that a slight angle changes the way wood will cut, but not sure the mill has enough angle to make that difference. When quartering a log with chainsaw, holding it at an angle increases speed and peels off shavings. Running straight through like a mill, and the cutting is a little slower & I get chips more than peelings. Whether or not the same effect occurs with band mills or not, I simply don't know but would assume so. What I do know is that the EZBW has a very sturdy frame/track and is rock solid. It's much heavier duty than the Woodland Mills saw. That will make a difference if you are milling fair sized oaks. It will also cut through a 30" log, meaning it was designed to support such a beast. My opinion (opinions are like #######s) is that the EZBW is in a completely different league than the Woodland. It's the heaviest & most capable saw I have seen under $5G's.
> 
> I have a mill that's modeled after the Linn 1900. It also has a 30" throat, but the track isn't as heavy as the EZBW. It has a 16hp electric start & does just fine cutting through anything I want to cut. It has bogged down a little on larger seasoned oak logs, but I haven't seen it struggle on anything yet. I have cut white oak, cherry, hard maple, pine, walnut, & cedar that pushed it's size limits and it handled them fine. I'm a big, young, strong guy and can handle any log that will fit the mill with a 60" Log-rite cant hook. But I may want some hydraulics later on. If I had it to do over, i'd have bought the EZBW instead of what I got. I was already familiar with Linn though from working with it on the family farm & knew what I would be getting with my own. I needed a big throat for quarter sawing as I mostly cut quartered maple for billiard cues.
> 
> Here's a pic of a cherry slab I cut for my old man. The mill had no problem slicing through the log. It's going to be a bar top in their cabin. Not something I typically cut, but I can when I want to. As far as I know, the EZBW is the only band mill under $6G's with the capability of making a slab this large. Like I say, not a necessity by any means, but a nice capability to have.



'At's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Thank you for doing the thinking for me. Nice slab BTW.



Sawyer Rob said:


> I bought my first BSM in 1996, i've went to the EXPO's and many sawmill shows since and i'll mill on anything anyone will let me run.
> 
> I probably don't remember them all, but the starter mills off the top of my head are, Woodmizer 10, 15, at least 3 or 4 Hudsons, the Johnsered wouldn't even work so i couldn't try that one. Norwoods Lumbermate Mark 3, 4, 5, LM2000, 24, 26, 34... Ezzboardwalk model compared to the LM2000 (forget the model. Timber King 1200 ? and one other one, Baker, don't know the model and several others. SO, i do have some knowledge of BSM's and how they compare.
> 
> SR


Again... I wasn't tryin' to be a douche (wife says it's a gawd given talent requiring no real effort on my part) but it helps to understand the difference in experience between someone like yourself and somebody who just bought a particular model last month and needs to feel better about the dough that he dropped. Seriously appreciate the tolerant input. Think I'll try 'n get a hands on with the EZ and the Norwood.


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## gemniii

Keep an eye out for CL finds, frequently I've seen LT15 size mill going for $5K or less. Lots of people thought they could mill and SELL lumber, then found out LOTS of people thought of that already.

For example, in the Poconos:


> For sale Wood mizer portable band sawmill model LT-20 with trailer package includes manual log turner, 4 adjustable leveling outriggers, log loading ramps, 8 hp briggs&straton electric start engine, toe boards, waterlube bottle, power feed.
> along with approx. 10 re sharpend like new blades and a couple that need resharp. and operators manual.
> Has approxamatley 500 hours of use on it, well maintained and all original.
> All functions including motor are in excellant working condition, and ready to be used.
> Can be seen in action. $5200.00 neg


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## Rearden

gemniii said:


> Keep an eye out for CL finds, frequently I've seen LT15 size mill going for $5K or less. Lots of people thought they could mill and SELL lumber, then found out LOTS of people thought of that already.
> 
> For example, in the Poconos:



I've driven further for less. Thanks.

Yeah it seems like some kind of primal business maxim - the more "obvious" it seems that you can't miss...

My son was certain that his military grade metal detector was the key to easy riches while ogling tail on the beach. At least I have a really good metal detector for checkin' my logs now. 

I had been watching CL, but I guess I'd better widen the search.


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## gemniii

Here's one from Sawmillcreek.org


> Now is your chance! I am selling my Woodmizer LT15. It has cutting length capacity of 11 feet and can cut up to a 26" diameter log. It has a 15 HP Kohler engine with about 400 hours on it. The mill is in good condition and cuts very accurately. With a helper and good logs, you can cut 1000 BF per day if you are willing to work hard! Price is $4300.



That's about what I paid for my LT10 with all the extras I got.

Location Perry, GA


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## hunterbuild

I'm still cutting a lot of wood with my HF mill which is made by the same Chinese company that makes the wood land. For the $1700+ I paid for it I can't complain. I did buy 1 extra of most the moving parts as servies can be a proplem. I do cut mostly pine. I have a skidstreer so the manual mill is not so much work.


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## Cody Colston

Rearden said:


> Like I said, I can fabricate just about anything, and the Linn packages are another possibility on that note, but I was wonderin' just what you mean when you say that yours struggles even with the 13 hp Honda. Also, does that 15 degree cutting angle on the EZ Boardwalk Jr. really make that much difference, or is it just snake oil?



The 13 hp engine will cut 30" Oak, it's just extremely slow. Horsepower is king in band mills.

I have no idea about the 15 degree cutting angle on the EZ Boardwalk Jr. Thinking about it, I can see that it might help pull the blade through the cut but the log diameter doesn't change. In fact, the diameter it is cutting actually gets a bit wider with the blade angled.


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## Rearden

Yeeeeeah well... I'm gettin' up there age wise, and even with a grapple, I'm not real keen on wrastlin' any big timber . It's lookin' like a used unit is in my future with as much Honda or Kohler goodness as can be had. Thanks all for the thoughtful input.


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## thechknhwk

I got one for ya...

Norwood Portable Sawmill


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## Sawyer Rob

Rearden said:


> Yeeeeeah well... I'm gettin' up there age wise, and even with a grapple, I'm not real keen on wrastlin' any big timber . It's lookin' like a used unit is in my future with as much Honda or Kohler goodness as can be had. Thanks all for the thoughtful input.



Personally, i like the B&S "Vanguard" motors better than a Kohler or a Honda... The Vanguards are very long lasting motors, don't have the problems in cold weather the Honda's have and are cheaper/easier to work on than a Kohler, and for me, use less gas.

Make mine a Vanguard pleaseeee!

SR


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## hamish

Sawyer Rob said:


> Personally, i like the B&S "Vanguard" motors better than a Kohler or a Honda... The Vanguards are very long lasting motors, don't have the problems in cold weather the Honda's have and are cheaper/easier to work on than a Kohler, and for me, use less gas.
> 
> Make mine a Vanguard pleaseeee!
> 
> SR




Rob, 

The Honda always had a winter kit available for it, just the mill manufacturer forgot to order/include it, all the Honda woes on townhall are just lack of knowledge.

I have never had a Kohler or Briggs be more fuel efficent or longer lasting than a Honda. I work on *** everyday and am certified by all three manufacturers, give me a honda or kohler anyday, briggs if I have to.

Briggs are cheaper to work on yes, solely because the junk they are built with doesn't warrant a real price. In the last 10 years the quality has near dropped off the face of the earth with them. 
but yes they are cheap to work on, and expensive to buy.

Personaly my experience,
Jeremy


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## Sawyer Rob

hamish said:


> Rob,
> 
> The Honda always had a winter kit available for it, just the mill manufacturer forgot to order/include it, all the Honda woes on townhall are just lack of knowledge.
> 
> I have never had a Kohler or Briggs be more fuel efficent or longer lasting than a Honda. I work on *** everyday and am certified by all three manufacturers, give me a honda or kohler anyday, briggs if I have to.
> 
> Briggs are cheaper to work on yes, solely because the junk they are built with doesn't warrant a real price. In the last 10 years the quality has near dropped off the face of the earth with them.
> but yes they are cheap to work on, and expensive to buy.
> 
> Personaly my experience,
> Jeremy



You have had a VERY much difference experience than me. I probably have 20 small gas motors around here right now, and i like my Vanguard the best. Don't lump all of the other Briggs line with the Vanguard line! 

That heat deflector isn't the answer for the Honda's, it's a cheapo partial fix, that doesn't always work. A big mfg. over here quit Honda all together because they got sick of the Honda's problems in cold weather. They mfg tree trimmers, and went to Vanguards.

Some of the ATV's that use Honda's had to come up with complicated fixes for the Honda's too, then there's Honda's lack of warr. when you need it!

Norwood quit Honda's for more reasons than the cold weather problems they have!

I'm not saying Kohlers are junk, but i'll take a Vanguard over a Kohler every time. My Grass Hopper/CIH/Cub Caddet dealer has replaced quite a few OHV Kohlers, that for no reason dropped a valve with low hrs. on them. They now carry Hoppers with the Kubota gas motors as much as possible. They are a great gas motor! I have a Kubota gas motor on a pump, it runs like a million bucks, just like it always has since it was new in the early 80's.

I stand by my origional post, because that's what i've found to be true over all the years i've been buying and useing small gas motors.

SR


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## hamish

Sawyer Rob said:


> That heat deflector isn't the answer for the Honda's, it's a cheapo partial fix, that doesn't always work. A big mfg. over here quit Honda all together because they got sick of the Honda's problems in cold weather. They mfg tree trimmers, and went to Vanguards.
> 
> 
> Norwood quit Honda's for more reasons than the cold weather problems they have!
> 
> I'm not saying Kohlers are junk, but i'll take a Vanguard over a Kohler every time. My Grass Hopper/CIH/Cub Caddet dealer has replaced quite a few OHV Kohlers, that for no reason dropped a valve with low hrs. on them. They now carry Hoppers with the Kubota gas motors as much as possible. They are a great gas motor! I have a Kubota gas motor on a pump, it runs like a million bucks, just like it always has since it was new in the early 80's.
> 
> SR



We all have our own opinions and am respectful of that.
Mfg's when deciding to use an engine want the cheapest one they can get, its not the engines fault. Both Honda and to a much lesser extent Briggs are global motors, with Honda being more global. All GX620 or any GX motor is not the same, its all down to its build code, and application.
The heat shield fix tossed out by a certain company was the cheapest route they could take from a standard parts list. CCT packages and options have been available for years up here in Canada, and most already include it, if it may possibly be run in the winter. Lawnmowers no, snowthrowers yes. Same engines different build codes...aka options.

Take a look at some Briggs parts diagrams they have it also.

Your Kohler dealer may want to learn about hydraulic valves and full pressure lubrication, hydraulic valves really really dislick a lack of lubrication! (not using full pressure oil filters messes things up in no time.....hence no why all oem kohler filters are full pressure).

Kubota=Japan parent company, quality all round, like Honda and worth it.

Yes get a Woodland Mill

To the original OP, get yourself a mill, its the most fun ever.


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## Sawyer Rob

Well, at least two of the Kohlers that dropped valves, one at 10 hrs and another at 60hrs, were all origional motors with nothing changed filt/oil or anything else. My dealer is a good dealer and being a CIH tractor dealer, he has very good mechanics. Kohler sent out new motors, and the dealer never opened the old ones, they just stuck them in the crates and sent them back.

Sometimes the Kohler 15's that Norwood used, would throw a fit and be hard to start! I helped out Norwood at a show one time, and the Kohler would sometimes be very hard to start, it sure was embarrassing when someone wanted to run the mill, and it would act up! lol

Many mfg do buy cheapest, but not all... BUT, even Honda doesn't mfg all of their motors in Japan anymore. Take the 13's, they aren't as good as they use to be, and they no longer are made in Japan... Honda subs them out! Honda warr is terrible, they have the attitude that nothing they sell breaks, and if your's breaks it HAS to be YOUR fault! lol

Remember that guy on the Norwood forun that his Honda 20 broke a crank with 10 hrs on the clock??? He had a heck of a time with Honda, because they insisted it just doesn't happen with their motor! After something like 6 weeks of down time, they finally replaced the motor!

Then their's was that time with all the problems with broken muffler bolts on the 13's. Norwood had fits trying to get Honda to take care of that problem! They finally did, but it took a loooong time!

The Vanguards are made in Japan, saddly that's why they are good!! The only thing i ever heard negative from owners is, in some applications they could use a bigger air filt... B&S does offer one, but unless you spec it, you don't get it.

I agree that we all have different experiences, that's what makes the world go around!! lol

SR


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## brookpederson

Cody Colston said:


> Horsepower is king in band mills.



true that


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## Rearden

Interesting perspectives on the small engine debate. My own experiences: Vanguard on my Hustler zero-turn mower was a complete POS from the get go. Engine was actually replaced under warranty - after three starters, countless batteries, valve adjustments, and trips to the dealer in mid season. The replacement just blew a few weeks ago while sitting at idle (and yes, all regular maintenance was up to date, 'cuz with the troubles I've had with this $4k+ mower, I ain't touchin' nuthin'... dealer does everything). Maybe they're the idiots, but either way, the next replacement is gonna be a Kawasaki or Kohler. Great mower - crap engine.

I have two 10 or 11kw gensets with Honda GX620's that are probably about seven+ years old now. One is emergency power for the house, and one for my back yard shop. Both are electric start, and get fired up a few times a year, with occasional 24/7 operation of a few days to a few weeks after a storm. I run Sunoco Supreme whateverthehell they call it with a fuel stabilizer, and while not the same type of use as my my mower, I would say it's life is easily as hard. They have always started and run fine every time.

4" Trash pump w/ Yamaha 12hp, pretty much the same story as the Honda's, but it is picky about having good gas. 5 hp B&S on a commercial lawn edger... even worse than the Vanguard. Absolutely, positively have to run it dry every time and then store it with Mechanic in a Bottle, or equivalent, and even then, fresh plug and many cusses to re-fire. My old Troy Bilt "Horse" tiller is actually an 8 hp (I had to check... thought it was a ten for some reason), and it's been heavily used for several months out of the year for over 20 years, according to the boss, er da wife. Worn out I don't know how many sets of tires, tines, rub blocks, belts and reverse hubs - but using the same gas precautions (Sunoco+ and stabilizer) she starts and runs like a champ all day. Think I rebuilt the carb once or twice, air filter, oil changes... standard fair for that long in use, but always starts and runs smooth, and I do use the crap out'a the thing every year. My 2-man auger has a little Honda on it, and I can't count the abuses this thing has survived, but again... like a Timex.

I buy returns, close-outs and damages from a local liquidator and fix 'em up from time to time, and while the B&S are usually ubiquitous as far as parts are concerned, they always seem to need something. The Honda's, rarely so. I realize this anecdotal crap proves nothing, and as already stated - it's all personal, but I've had great luck/success with the Kohler, Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki 4 stroke small engines. Enough so that I don't mind paying more to avoid another B&S.

Getting back to the mills and the issue of mo' bigger is always better, I have and do own quite a few Kubota water cooled diesels (Skid Steer Loaders, Tractors, etc.), and have always found them to be rock solid. Still doing my due diligence on just what I'll be cutting and what if any real market exists in our new area. It seems likely that for the purposes of processing the immediately available wood and sawing up cedar for strip built kayaks, some hard woods for furniture, and some oak for fencing, the little Chi-com machine would be fine. Slow and tedious perhaps, but adequate let's say. Now since more power always appeals to my Tim Allen side, the idea of a fully automated diesel hydro mill and firewood processor is tempting to say the least, as long as I can plan a reasonable path for recovering the bulk of my investment. Obviously a bigger, badder, portable has greater possibilities, I just have to make certain that I don't end up in the trap of so many that seem to think that ya just buy the mill or FWP and the world will beat a path to your door with gobs of cash. A lot of the used units that I've inquired about seem to share that history, especially nowadays. 

So, veering OT a little further, how are people making money with these mills... really! The manufacturers are convinced that there are millions of people who would gladly sell the family cow for a sawyer if only there were more of them around, and yet - every old circ saw mill around me is now kaput, so what gives? Do I justify the cost against only that which I know I'll do for myself, or do I put on the rosy red glasses and try to convince the crazy woman that sleeps next to me, with an icepick in her hand, that I'm gonna be the next Weyerehauser...if only I can get that 800 hp hydro mill?


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## Dave Boyt

A couple of comments... 

Portable sawmilling has been pretty good for me, since most sawyers don't want to fool with moving their mill, and most potential customers don't have a way to bring you logs.

I've had three BSMs, including a full hydraulic TimberHarvester, and there are a few things I like about the one I'm sawing with these days. It only takes 10 to 15 minutes to set up on a site. In fact, I have backed it into a driveway, cut a few logs with it still attached to my truck, then pulled out again. A rigid frame will let you do that.

The log stops have rollers that make turning the logs with a cant hook much easier, and adjust in and out, which makes it possible to hold some of the odd-shaped pieces I work on, such as cutting walnut crotches for gun stocks. Maximum log dia is 34". The advertised maximum width of cut is 28", but I can take the blade guides off and pick up a couple more inches and still cut straight. Controls are simple, and the engine idles back and the blade brake engages when you let go of the throttle lever. When you adjust the carriage height, it stays put-- no need to lock it in place. So far, no problem with the Briggs & Scrapiron engine.

I can turn most logs with a cant hook, but I wrap a strap around the log and lift with the front end loader if I need help. I've also got a hand winch for loading and turning logs if I'm at a customer's location and a loader isn't available. As far as I know, Norwood is the only mill with hydraulic upgrades that you can put on at any time. Even though you're a capable fabricator, it might be a consideration-- they've got some pretty ingenius solutions to the problems involved.

Here in Missouri, most of what I cut is oak, and some of it is pretty ugly. Also cut hedge, hickory, and cherry. With a sharp blade and everything lined up right, I've had good results.


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## mrnecsteve

Sawyer Rob said:


> You have had a VERY much difference experience than me. I probably have 20 small gas motors around here right now, and i like my Vanguard the best. Don't lump all of the other Briggs line with the Vanguard line!
> 
> That heat deflector isn't the answer for the Honda's, it's a cheapo partial fix, that doesn't always work. A big mfg. over here quit Honda all together because they got sick of the Honda's problems in cold weather. They mfg tree trimmers, and went to Vanguards.
> 
> Some of the ATV's that use Honda's had to come up with complicated fixes for the Honda's too, then there's Honda's lack of warr. when you need it!
> 
> Norwood quit Honda's for more reasons than the cold weather problems they have!
> 
> I'm not saying Kohlers are junk, but i'll take a Vanguard over a Kohler every time. My Grass Hopper/CIH/Cub Caddet dealer has replaced quite a few OHV Kohlers, that for no reason dropped a valve with low hrs. on them. They now carry Hoppers with the Kubota gas motors as much as possible. They are a great gas motor! I have a Kubota gas motor on a pump, it runs like a million bucks, just like it always has since it was new in the early 80's.
> 
> I stand by my origional post, because that's what i've found to be true over all the years i've been buying and useing small gas motors.
> 
> SR



You know its funny...i have never even given a second thought about the Vanguard on my garden tractor ! ITs going on 17-18 years old now
and it still runs great like the day I bought it. No oil problems,no muffler rust out , no carb adjustments,no plug problems,no gas problems,
no starter problems nothing,no malfunctions whatsoever.....even after forgetting and leaving it out in the rain and snow.
If its warm out tomorrow....I think I will hug my Vanguard!!!!!:msp_rolleyes:


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## Dave Boyt

Rearden, it's been over three months since your original post, and you've been real quiet. Did you get a band saw mill yet? Would love to see photos, or at least get an update. Qbilder-- a Missouri T-shirt and an 8N Ford-- you'd fit right in over here, though both you and your tractor look to be in better shape than me and "Old Henry"! Here's a photo of my hydraulic log turner-- a strap hooked to the log and wrapped around the underside of it with the other end hooked onto the front end loader. Works ever' time.


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