# Tree removal estimates



## crater (Mar 13, 2010)

Just wondering how everyone estimates a tree removal? I'm am really anal about how I estimate my projects so that I may have a history to look back on if I see a loss in profit. And I don't want to knock on the HO door and scratch my head and say it'll be $$$ to remove your tree. 
One easy question like "how did you come up with that amount" could be a very embarssing moment. 
I understand years of experence helps alot but still "how do you come up with that amount?"
like DBH, size of crown, hazards, height, accessability, cleanup


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

I do this all day. How are you doing and asking this? Do you know your man-hours and costs?
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 13, 2010)

Well whats it cost you to operate hourly or even daily , find what your magic number and than learn very well what your daily or what your capable of accomplishing in hr . This is often a complex thing and takes yrs. and experience to not shoot yourself in the foot by being too high or the WORST and be too low, because once you get labeled as cheap its tough to break out..There is no one here that can accurately answer that question except you.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Well whats it cost you to operate hourly or even daily , find what your magic number and than learn very well what your daily or what your capable of accomplishing in hr . This is often a complex thing and takes yrs. and experience to not shoot yourself in the foot by being too high or the WORST and be too low, because once you get labeled as cheap its tough to break out..There is no one here that can accurately answer that question except you.



I shall answer. I have 13 guys, that is 104 man hours. To be conservative, at 50 buck per hour per guy that is 104 man hours. At 50 bucks per gut that is 5200 bucks a day. I do this every day. And yes, I can answer this as I am the guy with 30 plus years making my boss money and competing in a tough economic enviroment. Ther is no magical number. At the end of the year, it all adds up.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 13, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I shall answer. I have 13 guys, that is 104 man hours. To be conservative, at 50 buck per hour per guy that is 104 man hours. At 50 bucks per gut that is 5200 bucks a day. I do this every day. And yes, I can answer this as I am the guy with 30 plus years making my boss money and competing in a tough economic enviroment. Ther is no magical number. At the end of the year, it all adds up.
> Jeff



Yea thats your number not his , so you know what he needs to make a day to be competitive , I know my numbers aswell but not his , so maybe you misunderstood? So does that make sense or you still gonna be crass?


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## highpointtree (Mar 13, 2010)

I also bid in a similiar way. but not all days are equal. so my target $$ is usually at the end of a week. some days are better than others. and insurance work is usually the best paying.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea thats your number not his , so you know what he needs to make a day to be competitive , I know my numbers aswell but not his , so maybe you misunderstood? So does that make sense or you still gonna be crass?



I dont mean to be crass, it is my number and he is good with it. Sorry if I came off as an ass.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

BTW, my number is his number, get it?
Jeff, thats why he hired me.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 13, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I dont mean to be crass, it is my number and he is good with it. Sorry if I came off as an ass.
> Jeff


I know that it was a miscommunication and I was breaking your stones , lol


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 13, 2010)

highpointtree said:


> I also bid in a similiar way. but not all days are equal. so my target $$ is usually at the end of a week. some days are better than others. and insurance work is usually the best paying.



Are you in the wind tunnel today ?


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2010)

I may be different in the biz as we are high profile which requires the Owner to have a good Ops guy. I dont do res work and I hire and fire without need of permission of the Owner. I set the price.
Jeff


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## highpointtree (Mar 13, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Are you in the wind tunnel today ?



sure am  waiting for the rain to penetrate the frost and loosen up the roots on the heavy conifers. trucks are all fueled and saw's are sharp. guys have been instructed to be on standby... definitely could use a good payday how about you? much flooding. I have a friend working out in this crap in Newark. but he hit a homerun with the job hes on


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 13, 2010)

highpointtree said:


> sure am  waiting for the rain to penetrate the frost and loosen up the roots on the heavy conifers. trucks are all fueled and saw's are sharp. guys have been instructed to be on standby... definitely could use a good payday how about you? much flooding. I have a friend working out in this crap in Newark. but he hit a homerun with the job hes on



Yea, reluctantly ready , I hate the rain but need the money ... I have a good feeling about the next week as well I think this month will finish well, and if it does than I think its time for some new tires on the trucks...


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## tree md (Mar 13, 2010)

It basically comes down to time and operating costs. 

Figure out your "magic number" and try to shoot for that when you are estimating time and cost. Sometimes the market or particular job will bear more like when there is high demand due to a storm or a hazardous tree that no one else wants to touch. Liability and personal risk should also be a part of the equation. 

The ones who really profit are the ones who have learned the tricks to do it quick, fast and in a hurry.


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## highpointtree (Mar 13, 2010)

Should have learned pricing before you start up a business or employ a qualified salesperson. no one but the person you are estimating a job for will benefit from a tree company that has their pricing all over the place. lots of newbie's in the business throw prices around that don't reflect the job and then the HO or contractor expects the seasoned business to compete with numbers that make no sense at all. being a great "TREEMAN/WOMAN" is totaly different than being a great/good business person. consider employing a part time sales person until you know the best way to price your work. you will most likely,

1) sell more jobs
2) get better money for your work
3) have more time to actually get the work done
4) skip the "learning the hard way" losing money on jobs
5) look more professional

if your not sure now, then you will be way over your head when your called for a very large job. p.s. this is in general for new start ups, not pointed towards the OP....


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## Treecutr (Mar 13, 2010)

I can guarantee I'm not the greatest at this. I feel like I throw good bids out there, but then I don't get a few jobs. Here's my latest example, let me know what you would have bid, then I'll tell you what I bid. I havn't heard back from the guy. HO needs 5 trees total dropped without lawn damage, no concern here. 1 large maple, maybe 50'-55', no hazards, in open. 4 other trees near house, 2 cherries, 2 maples. 1 maple is 40-45', dead top, no branches, can use one of the cherries to put block in to remove it. only a very moderate chance of anything hitting tree. They could be cut and dropped from ground , but they want no lawn damage. It's a straight forward job. HO says he used to do this work as a ground/ rope guy with his uncle, but wife is too concerned about him climbing and doing it himself. Oh, can't use lift equipment, unless you want to plywood whole yard. Hope this is enough. HO is also doing all the cleanup, brush and all.


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## highpointtree (Mar 13, 2010)

Treecutr said:


> I can guarantee I'm not the greatest at this. I feel like I throw good bids out there, but then I don't get a few jobs. Here's my latest example, let me know what you would have bid, then I'll tell you what I bid. I havn't heard back from the guy. HO needs 5 trees total dropped without lawn damage, no concern here. 1 large maple, maybe 50'-55', no hazards, in open. 4 other trees near house, 2 cherries, 2 maples. 1 maple is 40-45', dead top, no branches, can use one of the cherries to put block in to remove it. only a very moderate chance of anything hitting tree. They could be cut and dropped from ground , but they want no lawn damage. It's a straight forward job. HO says he used to do this work as a ground/ rope guy with his uncle, but wife is too concerned about him climbing and doing it himself. Oh, can't use lift equipment, unless you want to plywood whole yard. Hope this is enough. HO is also doing all the cleanup, brush and all.



Someone is going to try and do it when(if) the ground is frozen or snow on the ground. throw some tires around, maybe a couple old sheets of plywood. hang a couple trees off others and cut some from the ground and take a chance. prolly worth 1,200.00 to 1,500.00...someone else prolly bid 800.00-1,000.00... its funny how some people are willing to take a chance at other peoples houses


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## Treecutr (Mar 13, 2010)

I agree highpoint, someone probably will go 800-1000, I was higher. Guess it don't matter what people know i bid, I bid $1,750. Thats $350 a tree with no clean up. I suppose if trusted he was a rope ground guy, I could use him as ground guy, and not pay mine, but he didn't know anything about using blocks, and port a wrap, said he did it 15 years ago. havn't heard back yet, but I also know he's pretty busy. If he balks at it, maybe I come down a hair, but, I think it's a good price.


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## highpointtree (Mar 13, 2010)

Treecutr said:


> I agree highpoint, someone probably will go 800-1000, I was higher. Guess it don't matter what people know i bid, I bid $1,750. Thats $350 a tree with no clean up. I suppose if trusted he was a rope ground guy, I could use him as ground guy, and not pay mine, but he didn't know anything about using blocks, and port a wrap, said he did it 15 years ago. havn't heard back yet, but I also know he's pretty busy. If he balks at it, maybe I come down a hair, but, I think it's a good price.



you can alway's tell him your looking for your trucks to be seen to kick off the year, and drop the price a couple bucks.. better to start high, you can always go down if you want.. lot harder to go up in price without looking bad.

besides, who needs money, when you got rep's... here's one for ya!!!


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## tree md (Mar 13, 2010)

Treecutr said:


> I agree highpoint, someone probably will go 800-1000, I was higher. Guess it don't matter what people know i bid, I bid $1,750. Thats $350 a tree with no clean up. I suppose if trusted he was a rope ground guy, I could use him as ground guy, and not pay mine, but he didn't know anything about using blocks, and port a wrap, said he did it 15 years ago. havn't heard back yet, but I also know he's pretty busy. If he balks at it, maybe I come down a hair, but, I think it's a good price.



Got one coming up for 4 Maples, all around 55'. I bid $2600 with clean up, $2100 to leave lay. He chose to have me just put them on the ground. All four trees are over the house and a chain link fence runs lengthwise underneath all of them. Every limb is going to have to be lowered. I can bomb most of the spars. 

That price is about a third less than I would have got a year and a half ago.


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## Treecutr (Mar 13, 2010)

I dropped an e-mail to see where he sits. i even told him if by some chance I wasn't lowest bid, at least give me a shot to match it, but I want to see it before I'd agree to it. I may also do something like that, make something up to have a reason to come down a bit. I'm sure I can do it in a day, so even if I came down a little, It's still good moeny in the long run. I don't have big equipment, so my overhead is fairly low. we'll see if I hear from him in next day or two.


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## Rftreeman (Mar 13, 2010)

I just tell them I'll beat any written estimate by 10% but I have to see it, then I just take the 10% off and have at it.......................or, I just figure how many peanuts it'll take to get the job done............























not really, I'm just kidding, I use the hours thing, I shot myself in the foot a few times when I first started but learned real fast and you will to.........

*edit:* my bids are not negotiable, if they want me they pay my written bid amount...


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## treeseer (Mar 14, 2010)

Treecutr said:


> I dropped an e-mail to see where he sits. i even told him if by some chance I wasn't lowest bid, at least give me a shot to match it,


Is this even ethical? at best that is a race to the bottom of profitability.

If want to stand out, learn and sell pruning and support to meet owner goals. Lots of requests for removal estimates are from people who would be happy to keep the tree, if they could find someone who knew how to manage it, not Basil Kutz.


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## highpointtree (Mar 14, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Is this even ethical? at best that is a race to the bottom of profitability.
> 
> If want to stand out, learn and sell pruning and support to meet owner goals. Lots of requests for removal estimates are from people who would be happy to keep the tree, if they could find someone who knew how to manage it, not Basil Kutz.



sad but true, not everyone wants to live in a forest. the darkness is depressing. I won't judge what I havn't seen for myself


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## treesquirrel (Mar 14, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Is this even ethical? at best that is a race to the bottom of profitability.



I don't know about you but here in the market I serve profitability is borderline right now. Unfortunately I cannot afford to sit on my azz and wait for somebody to bite on the higher pricetags that were common a year or two ago.

The reality here is trees are not a top priority in this economy. I have to serve up a bargain these days or get shut out. I'll accept cashflow that keeps the lights on until things swing back upwards.


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## Treecutr (Mar 14, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Is this even ethical? at best that is a race to the bottom of profitability.
> 
> If want to stand out, learn and sell pruning and support to meet owner goals. Lots of requests for removal estimates are from people who would be happy to keep the tree, if they could find someone who knew how to manage it, not Basil Kutz.





What??? Ethical? I'm not commiting a crime or a moral dilema. If I make a bid, and someone they want to do a job matches it and they go with them, it's my loss. I don't argue with the potential customer and talk him out of removing a tree ( s ) he is set on removing. I'm really confused. I'm simply trying to keep some money coming in to support my family. this is the first time I have been irritated on here. Ethical???? I don't get it. am I not seeing something here.

Oh, he respnoded, I was the lowest bid with $1,750 for the job, and he wants it done, just doesn't have money yet. I'm working with him on doing it one tree at a time if it's easier for him. Race to the bottom of profitability??, more like survival, take what i can get until economy turns. I'd be pretty shocked if everyone here is still getting same prices as a year or two ago.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 14, 2010)

Sometimes it is who you know. What we sell is intangible.
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Mar 14, 2010)

*Treecutr....*

I just give the price and leave it at that.

These people that try and pull all sorts of funky moves to weasel their way into the job are just making themselves look bad in my opinion. 

This calling the customer back, lowering your price each time - "will beat any written estimate" sort of crap, makes us all look like a bunch of fool hacks. It also devalues our line of work. 

Who cares if you wanna hear it or not! Its bad enough that its already become like the wild west out there. We are supposed to be setting the standard - not letting the customer set it for us!


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## Treecutr (Mar 14, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I just give the price and leave it at that.
> 
> These people that try and pull all sorts of funky moves to weasel their way into the job are just making themselves look bad in my opinion.
> 
> ...



I've only had 1 other person try this. It's normally a " here's my quote'. if I get good, if not, oh well. It's not my full time job. I'm workig towards a nice vacation for family before I go off to war, AGAIN. I'm not making us look bad, it's the guy on the 3 wheeled bike around here who carries saws and rope on it, and pedals around town doing tree work. Sad part is the guy is really good, just not right upstairs so to speak.


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## treeseer (Mar 14, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> These people that try and pull all sorts of funky moves to weasel their way into the job are just making themselves look bad in my opinion.
> 
> This calling the customer back, lowering your price each time - "will beat any written estimate" sort of crap, makes us all look like a bunch of fool hacks. It also devalues our line of work.



:agree2:

It should be a moral dilemma. Consider the golden rule; would you want another treecutter undercutting you like that?  or a customer playing you like that?

Pruning pays.


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## crater (Mar 14, 2010)

ok so it seems as the consences is bid it hourly. 
BTY to anyone that is curious. I have been selling and estimateing construction(remodeling) for 20yrs. I have a firm sence of how to make a accurate estimate. I know the business end also; cash flow, overhead, markup and of course profit margin.


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## beastmaster (Mar 16, 2010)

I often hear my boss telling a potential customer,"I can tell you right now, I'm not going to be the lowest bid". Then he goes on to selling the job. He is a master salesman. You have to convince the HO that he wants to use you and no one else, and then deliver the goods. With reputation comes recognition. 
When I had my little tree service years ago. I advertised in the local paper and had to bid against the other 5 or 6 guys who advertise there also. It was very competitive. Our bids were often with in 10 or 20 dollars of one anther. 
It's bad enough trying to beat a legitimate bid, but you get guys with no ins. and 3 illegals who'll do the job for nothing almost , it heartbreaking. 
I made one major mistake on a 60 tree bid. I finished the job but it broke my company. I paid them to do these trees. Lesson learned, if your not sure how to bid a job(big job)don't guess, and as my wife use to always tell me,"you have to bid to turn a profit", not win the bid.


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## crater (Mar 16, 2010)

amen.
chasing the low bid is always gonna end in disaster. I've been reading allot on here about guys dropping the price to get the job. Hmm how can you live on the left over gas and oil you bought to do the job? Because you dropped the profit right out from under YOURSELF. Price drops do have there place but ONLY on a one call close. They are used as a tool to get the job. although you will have already priced it high enough to use a drop of course. Some people get really pissed when you use the drop also, like (and this is what I say) "You must have been over-priced to begin with, if you can drop your price." or offer a "discount" These are all sales gimmicks. I just give them my best quote and hope for the best, if they tell me I'm higher than someone else, I ask about there qualifications, INS, longevity, BBS status, warranty etc. I can even offer a "Assurance of losest price" another sale gimmick but it gets them to sign. Assurance of lowest price (I know your curious) mine says that if HO can find someone else lower within 30day after signing I will refund the difference (but I already got the job remember), BUT the other contractor has to live up to my specs. The spec aren't hard to achieve I'm just keeping my competition honest. When they have INS and have been in business at least 5yrs and can offer written guarantees, there price is gonna be very competitive and if I have to give the HO a few buck back (which I haven't yet in 20yrs) so be it. I'm honest and maybe I am over priced a little. I'll catch allot more HO's with this tactic than saying "Go ahead and hire them, but I charge more to clean up someone else's mess"

Bty I agree "you have to bid to turn a profit"... AMEN 
I have a friend that wanted to partner up with me. I discussed this with my wife and collectively agreed it would not work because he says too often "How can it be that much" when I'm say'n "I not only want to stay afloat, I want to retire someday"


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## ctrees4$ (Mar 16, 2010)

I am rareley the cheapest bid on the block and will not come off my price. When someone out bids me I know they are not going to profit much so I just laugh and let them cut.Eventually they will get tired of working for pennies to the dollar and have to replace some equipment that they cant afford due to cutting 10 perc. cheaper than lowest bid. I don't want the reputation of being the cheapest when I have the reputation of being the best. I just did a job last week and I was the highest of 3 bids...ho said he liked my personality and felt he could trust me more than the other 2. Winning a bid is more than a number..it is a relationship built in 30 min to gain trust.Stand by your word and you will have a repeat costomer for life plus his lifetime of good referall.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 17, 2010)

Back to the OP, if the HO is concerned because the prices are too high, then maybe you can convince him to accept some lawn damage (which he can fix himself as he does the cleanup). This way you can flop these trees rather than roping everything down.


$30 in topsoil and $10 in grass seed will go a long way in reducing the time it takes to remove these trees.


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## crater (Mar 17, 2010)

yea BC, I always ask the HO exactly what there expectations are as my bid has to reflect the the amount of work we perform. Then clearly spell that out in the work order. Saves allot of frustration later if the HO can see that he did indeed agree that he was to do the clean up and repair of landscape (all because they wanted the lowest bid up front).


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## Treecutr (Mar 17, 2010)

OK, OK, so I'm taking a beating here. I can admit when I made a mistake. I agree that the bid is the bid, and thats how I normally approach it, guess I had a momentary lapse of reason. I did get the job at my bid, and I did offer to just drop them, but he insist on not wanting the big dents from the trees, so lower away I will. Forgive me for my stupidity, LOL I said when I joined this site that I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong. I lucked out on this one, but at least I learned a lesson. Still pretty new at this whole things, but thanks to site site, I have certainly learned a lot more.

Also, some mentioned not giving discounts. I give Veterans a discount( with some varification ) I'm actually planning on doing some free work for homesforourtroops.org. without etting into huge detail, they recently gave a home they builty to a disabled Veteran nearby, and we have helped with the building process, some trees were damaged along the driveway, and should have been removed early on, but they wer't, so I told them I'd do it.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 18, 2010)

Treecutr said:


> OK, OK, so I'm taking a beating here. I can admit when I made a mistake. I agree that the bid is the bid, and thats how I normally approach it, guess I had a momentary lapse of reason. I did get the job at my bid, and I did offer to just drop them, but he insist on not wanting the big dents from the trees, so lower away I will. Forgive me for my stupidity, LOL I said when I joined this site that I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong. I lucked out on this one, but at least I learned a lesson. Still pretty new at this whole things, but thanks to site site, I have certainly learned a lot more.
> 
> Also, some mentioned not giving discounts. I give Veterans a discount( with some varification ) I'm actually planning on doing some free work for homesforourtroops.org. without etting into huge detail, they recently gave a home they builty to a disabled Veteran nearby, and we have helped with the building process, some trees were damaged along the driveway, and should have been removed early on, but they wer't, so I told them I'd do it.



Congrats on getting the job. 

I'm impressed with your volunteering to do that tree work. I'm hold those who will give up their time in higher esteem than those who just cut a cheque.

Just curious, why is this organization building houses for veterans, when there are vacant neighbourhoods in various parts of the country where they could just buy the houses and put people in them tomorrow. Given that the banks own many of them, and the banks could use a positive PR hit..... just sayin


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## Treecutr (Mar 18, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Congrats on getting the job.
> 
> I'm impressed with your volunteering to do that tree work. I'm hold those who will give up their time in higher esteem than those who just cut a cheque.
> 
> Just curious, why is this organization building houses for veterans, when there are vacant neighbourhoods in various parts of the country where they could just buy the houses and put people in them tomorrow. Given that the banks own many of them, and the banks could use a positive PR hit..... just sayin



The houses are only given to Veterans who have lost at least 2 limbs. You lose an arm lets say, you don't qualify. They don't buy an old house and convert it, because it is a more costly to modify, and B they build each house for the specific need of each disabled Vet. A lot of the things for the house are donated, or they get a severe discount. All labor is volunteers, from the GC to plumbers, landscapers etc.... materials are donated, or purchsed cheaply. Homes are generally super insulated, and on the green side. veteran who receives the home has no mortgage, only pays his taxes and whatever utilities he has, but can't sell the house for at least 10 years. ( Habitat For Humanity learned the hard way when they started out, they'd give the home away, and within a month it was on the market. They were getting taken advantage of ) feel free to look at their website. They build homes all over, and it's an emotional experience to help someone. especiallyy if you're a Vet yourself. The house we recently were at to give away ( Saturday ) was for SGT Peter Rooney in Worthington, Ma. He lost both legs at the knee in a roadside bomb attack in Iraq. He's is unbelievablely upbeat, and the kind of guy you'd want your son to be. here's peter's link

http://www.homesforourtroops.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Peter_Rooney


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## crater (Mar 18, 2010)

I was the one who said not to discount. I guess I should have said not to cut your own throat. 

As a Desert Storm veteran I commend you for helping vets in whatever way you can, especially the disabled vets that have given the most they can and have come home to what may look like a very dreary life ahead of them.
Salute!!
and Thank You


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## Treecutr (Mar 18, 2010)

crater said:


> I was the one who said not to discount. I guess I should have said not to cut your own throat.
> 
> As a Desert Storm veteran I commend you for helping vets in whatever way you can, especially the disabled vets that have given the most they can and have come home to what may look like a very dreary life ahead of them.
> Salute!!
> and Thank You





Thanks, and I guess putting it that way ( not cutting own throat ) is a better way of looking at it. I'm gonna just stick with the bid is the bid, and not worry about why a HO hasn't called. The guy was real motivated to get them down, and money certainly didn't appear to be an issue, and the bid felt fair to me, so it made me wonder why he hadn't called back yet. That had never happened. Guess I just ike hearing ASAP.


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## Capper (Mar 19, 2010)

*Price wars ??*

Just throwing my 2 bits in here for the originator of this thread.. I am a ex-professional hand faller from British Columbia of 10 years.. I am now running my own business here in Saskatchewan,Canada .. LOL Yes your right the tree's are alot smaller here.. Regardless i have 3 crews, do all the quotes myself and do residential,commercial or government work.. I never turn a job down for one and when it's all said and done, i make the time to call the customer and make sure everything was satisfactory or not.. Sometime if i have the time i just swing by and talk with the customer as a show of personalization (calling first of course) they always seem impressed that i took the time to follow-up.. Enough chit chat - To find the exact price of any job, you need to first determine what equipment will needed IE: climbing gear,boom truck,chipper,dump trailer,stump grinder,skid steer w/grapple or what have you.. Then you need to figure out how many crew you need to put on the job ? usually 2 is sufficient or they get in each others way and start fighting LOL .. It's a testosterone thing . My charge for low profile residential jobs is usually $100/hr providing i don't need heavy eqpt.. Point to note that for every piece of eqpt you bring in you add % depending on the how much it'll be used .. For example if you bring in the boom truck it'll be used for 1-2 hrs i add 25% per hour because it is going to speed up the job and you'll be on your way sooner. So less time in comparison to climbing the tree, if there is no other way.. The rest you'll need to play around with guy - it take experience and you learn quick, eating any job leaves a bad taste in your mouth and that tends to smarten you up quick..

Free tip - you need to be on the look out steady.. Keep the jobs tight, but sensible time wise, and make sure your eqpt is serviced and ready to go and at 100% . Stay sharp , make sure your guys are looked after and they'll look after you. (treat your guys good) If you treat them like dogs they'll buck you everytime.

Hope it was of some help for you..

Capper


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