# Underbidding idiots



## Dadatwins (Mar 30, 2007)

Had a call to price a job a job today, potential was recommended by a former customer who was very happy with our prior work. This new potential customer wanted 2 trees removed, a pine and and a gum, in front of the house. They have been shopping prices and told me that price was most important detail of job. After looking at trees they both had to be climbed and rigged due to landscaping below, probably a 3-4 hour job climbing, 1/2 that with a bucket. Not a real hard or tricky job, but a lot of material to remove, all trash wood, and just time consuming. I gave a price that I thought was fair and would have paid for my help and disposal cost. My price on this job was $800.00 I am also paying for state and county license and insurance. I also considered that this was recommendation and hoped to get more calls from this client. After giving the price the potential tells me that I am double the lowest price that they have received so far. I told the potential that I would not consider doing the job for the suggested price, and wished them good luck. I told them to call me if the contractor was unable to do the work. Of course I and every one has been underbid before, but by 1/2 ????. I am scratching my head trying to figure out how someone could do a job so cheap and make $$$ Even using a pickup truck and no chipper, this job would take 1-2 hours of climbing and 3 loads or debris to a dump, which would take an additional 3-4 hours of travel time. I have no intention of lowering my price which I consider to be fair and continue to offer quality work, but it is aggravating that people can come in and 1/2 bid a price.
Shame on them. Thanks for letting me blow some steam.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2007)

Happens here all the time, feel with you man; but really I would rather not have a customer only price motivated !


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## rebelman (Mar 30, 2007)

I don't mind near as much on removals. It's hack pruning, hurried flush cuts and angled stubs, gratuitous breeches of standard that grate on me. Apples and oranges. ANSI A300 is said to level the field for competing bids. Here's hoping homeowners get the message someday. And corporations. Thanks for the chance to rant dadatwins.


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## treeseer (Mar 30, 2007)

All that for $400? They are cutting corners, with stuff like insurance and legal dumping and who knows maybe landscape-smashing too. If the client does not check insurance or references then they get what they deserve, which may include a claim from an injured uninsured contractor.

but man if they told you up front that removal was the only service they wanted and price was the only issue, then you wasted your time by diving in with the bottom feeders. That kind of caller needs info on tree values and tree benefits and why hire an arborist, and is left to go on their arborphobic ways.

Why'd they want the trees down--litter nuisance, right?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 30, 2007)

I've had people tell me that things like "we had other people bid all three trees for the price you ask for the two!"

I tell them to get a current cert of insurance and go with it. This is too much work for me to do it for a pitiance. I've got to pay my plumber $98 an hour


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## treeman82 (Mar 30, 2007)

I just looked at a job last weekened. 9 trees. I told the lady $2,500... but then started to get a bad feeling, so I said I need to re-evaluate this and will be back tonight with a proper proposal. Brought a friend over who has more experience than I do with jobs like this. He told me not to take any less than $3,500 - $4,000... and that's only while things are still quiet. So I gave them the price that he recommended... didn't ge the job thank goodness.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2007)

Man, had a customers neighbor have another local hack come
topped four pecan trees, complained to here neighbor that she have
something done with old mature water oak. I came over told lady we
could remove limb over neighbors house, raise crown, and dead wood
remove crossing branches. The neighbor came out said she wanted it 
topped like here trees I gave customer isa literature on topping she told
me she wanted the tree healthy.I told here I wasn't sure if here neighbor
could sue here for not punishing her trees, in the case of act of god or
tornado, but that if a tornado hit house would be damaged anyway!
These situations scare me if a limb does fail, hit neighbors roof am I liable
for doing best thing for tree? I try to do right thing and don't like this
kind of situation where a hack came in and butchered trees on property
next to your customer then you come in totally different approach. I
also told customer I could install cable to help support remaining limbs
she didn't want to have much expense as this was a rental ! So there 
went any future of supporting care for the tree do any of you have it this way?


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## Ed Roland (Mar 30, 2007)

Maybe the low ballers want to try to flop the trees and save some time. I would point this out to the customer and make sure they understand the damage these hacks will cause. Or could be, they just love killing themselves for nothin!


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## clearance (Mar 30, 2007)

You usually get what you pay for. That being said I did a job for a retired couple, a big job, 14 dead pines, 2 of them small, the rest 60'-90'. 3 were heavy leaners over the house. They had gotten many bids, all well over 5k. I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. Some I just fell, the rest ropes, or a steel cable and a Tirfor. I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why? They were very happy with what I did, and saved thousands. Think about this, do you ask people this question "If I put some holes in your lawn, I will charge you way less, does that sound allright?" A guy who pounds all the wood down fast isn't always a hack, many customers just want to pay for production. And lawns ain't sacred ground, blessed by the Pope and all that. I do know how to rig, I have done it over high-voltage, where there is no room for error, I just don't like being in a tree for very long.


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## OTG BOSTON (Mar 30, 2007)

*nice to see you're back*



clearance said:


> You usually get what you pay for. That being said I did a job for a retired couple, a big job, 14 dead pines, 2 of them small, the rest 60'-90'. 3 were heavy leaners over the house. They had gotten many bids, all well over 5k. I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. Some I just fell, the rest ropes, or a steel cable and a Tirfor. I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why? They were very happy with what I did, and saved thousands. Think about this, do you ask people this question "If I put some holes in your lawn, I will charge you way less, does that sound allright?" A guy who pounds all the wood down fast isn't always a hack, many customers just want to pay for production. And lawns ain't sacred ground, blessed by the Pope and all that. I do know how to rig, I have done it over high-voltage, where there is no room for error, I just don't like being in a tree for very long.



And I agree, I don't like to be in the tree for very long if I can help it.


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## Ed Roland (Mar 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> You usually get what you pay for. That being said I did a job for a retired couple, a big job, 14 dead pines, 2 of them small, the rest 60'-90'. 3 were heavy leaners over the house. They had gotten many bids, all well over 5k. I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. Some I just fell, the rest ropes, or a steel cable and a Tirfor. I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why? They were very happy with what I did, and saved thousands. Think about this, do you ask people this question "If I put some holes in your lawn, I will charge you way less, does that sound allright?" A guy who pounds all the wood down fast isn't always a hack, many customers just want to pay for production. And lawns ain't sacred ground, blessed by the Pope and all that. I do know how to rig, I have done it over high-voltage, where there is no room for error, I just don't like being in a tree for very long.



I hear u, clearance. 
Yet, flopping whole trees, especially leaners, with a house as a target is more of a hazard than climbing and lowering the debris in a controlled fashion. Of course if the tree can be flopped that saves time, therefore $. I do it the hard way by climbing and lowering with a friction device. I charge accordingly. I win some, I lose some.


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## ozy365 (Mar 30, 2007)

Its been said before: Charge twice as much in order to work half as often. If you want to do all rigging, charge accordingly. A lot of rural area around here, so there are a lot of requests for flop and drop. Also a hell of a lot of former forest trees that have become yard trees...tons of vertical, nasty v crotches and the only limb walking is vertical...way more fun to drop than to climb. 4" and under for the last third of height.


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## booboo (Mar 30, 2007)

Around here, the hacks who usually are uninsured will generally bid 1/3 - 1/2 under what we bid. We always make sure that we tell the client that we will include a copy of the cert with the proposal if they would like. We also recommend that they shop around because they might actually get a better price (from the crane crews...that's a long winded rant I've been saving up for), but we also tell them to request certs and references. They usually come back to us, sometimes they do get a better price from a legit outfit, and if they go with a lowballer, they get what they pay for and this probably isn't someone we wanted to work for anyway. 

However, a cert by itself doesn't even mean a whole lot. We had a case here last year where some loggers were using forged certs. Yep, they got busted, that was only part of thier issues and several of them are now resting comfortably in prison.

The crane rant is coming soon, it's been building for a while...watched part of another crane job yesterday that was just plain stupid...

:help:


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## treeseer (Mar 30, 2007)

clearance said:


> I was the only one who suggested falling it all full length, onto the beech in front of thier house. .


clearance I agreed with your post except I don't understand how you can fell dead pines onto a beech without destroying the beech.


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## diltree (Mar 30, 2007)

Treeseer.....

I think our boy clearance was referring to the beach you get a tan on and check out chicks with bikinis hoping for a thong sighting.......:hmm3grin2orange:


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## diltree (Mar 30, 2007)

One more thing Asplundh under bid me on a town contract today....I hate those orange trucks!!!!!


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## Ekka (Mar 31, 2007)

clearance said:


> I know a "real" arborist could have roped down all the branches and tops and blocks, but why?



Clearance, a real arborist would have considered all the options and felling is the first especially on a dead tree. Also it should be pretty much part of the standard discussion on the level of impact one can make upon the landscape. In these parts most lawn is just dust and far from sacred.

I even ask customers if I can flatten small plants etc as it affects price. If they say no and not a leaf to be touched then the price goes up accordingly.

What you did was spot on IMHO, and felling is always faster.

It will always be hard when it comes to removals due to price, but ask the client what they'll tolerate as far as which method you will use. Costs can change considerably.


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## soutz (Mar 31, 2007)

You know what you have to charge to make a profit and stay in biz. that is what matters. if these guys undercut they have a small life span. stay strong. dont ever go below that money line you need, if you do you are saying you are worth less and you will cut corners to make up time, then safety goes out the window.


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## treeseer (Mar 31, 2007)

diltree said:


> ...clearance was referring to the beach you get a tan


 OOooooooohh, beAch, what a difference a letter makes.

I just looked at a dead hickory yesterday. The only felling angle is across a pond and onto a wooden bulkhead and a concrete driveway. We will build a landing pad and fell it and save the client 50%.


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## Dadatwins (Mar 31, 2007)

diltree said:


> One more thing Asplundh under bid me on a town contract today....I hate those orange trucks!!!!!



I can almost understand a company like that working at cost just to keep thier people employed and trucks rolling. They wait for a storm somewhere and then sock it to whomever to make it all back. I am at a loss as to why someone would be willing to work below cost, take the risk involved and not make any $$$. It is amazing that when a pipe breaks in a house, folks will pay whatever it takes to the first guy that actually shows up to fix it. When it comes to tree-work they will call 20 people and wait until the lowest number comes in to get the work done. I knew this customer was price shopping as they told me so on the phone, but it was a recomendation and close to the house so not a big deal for me take a look. I generally tell price shoppers that I WILL NOT be the cheapest price on the job, but will do the job correctly and not cut corners. If they insist on looking for just the cheapest price then I wish them luck and will save the trip and not look at the work. My red flag now on calls are those that start the conversation by asking about a 'free estimate'. end rant :bang:


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## SteveBullman (Mar 31, 2007)

some people have a lower expectation out of life....dont hold much value in money, are happy living in a small house, or maybe trailer, and simply dont need to charge the same rates as others of us to maintain their lifestyle, shouldnt overlook that possibility.
good example, the other week i was getting quotes to have my truck resprayed, 2 quotes both came in at £1200, the 3rd quote £350. I know the guy who quoted the £350 and i have seen many examples of his work, he specializes in restoring vintage cars and does a top notch job. hes simply happy ticking along...hes not out to undercut no-one, just pricing for what he needs to live!


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## 046 (Mar 31, 2007)

usually plumbers are regulated by the state. here it's against the law to work on plumbing without a journeyman's license. which takes schooling + mandatory 2-3 years of apprentice duties at min wages. 

this effectively knocks out most adults from getting a plumber's license. who do you know (adult) that can work for 2-3 years at min wages to achieve a journeyman's license. 

this is why plumbers can charge $98 per hour. 



John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've had people tell me that things like "we had other people bid all three trees for the price you ask for the two!"
> 
> I tell them to get a current cert of insurance and go with it. This is too much work for me to do it for a pitiance. I've got to pay my plumber $98 an hour


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## lxt (Mar 31, 2007)

lowballers uhh? their all over the place, handymen that do it all, Ive shown customers my certs, insurance, pics of jobs, reference lists, etc... and some people just dont care about anything but da money$$$$

A guy the other day calls me back after I dropped off a bid proposal, 2 fair size hemlocks co joined at the base one leaning toward house the other a garage i tell him $1550.00.........his reply: if you can do the 2 big silver maples on the other side just drop n leave em Ill pay your price.

MY REPLY..........hahahahaha(literally) & I said when you goto the store and buy a gal. of milk do you get the eggs for free? he didnt like that very much!!

the problem is IMO people have cheapened this trade by lumping it into grass cutting, landscaping, gutter cleaning, etc....I started doing landscaping(which I have done professionally before getting into tree work)just to get back at the bums stealing all the easy work & leaving me with the big, dead ugly hangin over the house trees.

nice thing now is word of mouth about my operation has helped me grow a wonderful tree & landscape outfit(respected & professional).

LXT......................................................


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## treevet (Mar 31, 2007)

I too started planting trees as a side aspect. I can often net as much as a good tree work day w my stump grinder digging the hole and crane setting the plant. I ve found another disconcerting part of the drastic underbidder is the fact that while you may be bidding at industry standards (say 70$ man hr )for your area, when the potential customer or even established customer seeking to check your prices gets a look at the lowball bid and is only going for one comparison and happens to successfully complete the job then you will forever prob be seen as a ripoff artist and get all kinds of bad press around the area. Some lDirty looks and loss of future work work will likely follow no matter how undeserved. Sometimes I just refuse to bid bcs of sensing this scenerio.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 1, 2007)

some people are plain stupid,and haven't got a clue how to price a job! some base there pricing on what wage they were getting a few weeks back when working at McDonald's or Wallmart,to this type $400 bucks is like a lottery win!


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## Ekka (Apr 1, 2007)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> some people are plain stupid,and haven't got a clue how to price a job! some base there pricing on what wage they were getting a few weeks back when working at McDonald's or Wallmart,to this type $400 bucks is like a lottery win!



    TOUCHE'


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## Soul Assassin (Apr 7, 2007)

I've been working referrals now for three years. I don't advertise, I do the job professionally at a fair price. They tell all thier friends and family.

If I'm not getting alot of work, I'll lowball a bid......then my phone starts to ring. Argh.

I've done my share of ???? bids and ate it, I hate those.


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## Timberhauler (Apr 7, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Had a call to price a job a job today, potential was recommended by a former customer who was very happy with our prior work. This new potential customer wanted 2 trees removed, a pine and and a gum, in front of the house. They have been shopping prices and told me that price was most important detail of job. After looking at trees they both had to be climbed and rigged due to landscaping below, probably a 3-4 hour job climbing, 1/2 that with a bucket. Not a real hard or tricky job, but a lot of material to remove, all trash wood, and just time consuming. I gave a price that I thought was fair and would have paid for my help and disposal cost. My price on this job was $800.00 I am also paying for state and county license and insurance. I also considered that this was recommendation and hoped to get more calls from this client. After giving the price the potential tells me that I am double the lowest price that they have received so far. I told the potential that I would not consider doing the job for the suggested price, and wished them good luck. I told them to call me if the contractor was unable to do the work. Of course I and every one has been underbid before, but by 1/2 ????. I am scratching my head trying to figure out how someone could do a job so cheap and make $$$ Even using a pickup truck and no chipper, this job would take 1-2 hours of climbing and 3 loads or debris to a dump, which would take an additional 3-4 hours of travel time. I have no intention of lowering my price which I consider to be fair and continue to offer quality work, but it is aggravating that people can come in and 1/2 bid a price.
> Shame on them. Thanks for letting me blow some steam.



I've also had people tell me that they had another bid that was half of mine just to try and get me to go down on my price.....I bid a job for a guy a few weeks ago,I quoted him 1200 for the work he wanted done.He called me back and said he had found someone to do it for 900 and if I could do it for that price I could have it..I declined,but he called me a week later and wanted me to go ahead with it...I found it funny that he decided to use me anyway and could not remember who the other outfit was who gave him the lower price.


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## treevet (Apr 7, 2007)

Timberhauler said:


> I've also had people tell me that they had another bid that was half of mine just to try and get me to go down on my price.....I bid a job for a guy a few weeks ago,I quoted him 1200 for the work he wanted done.He called me back and said he had found someone to do it for 900 and if I could do it for that price I could have it..I declined,but he called me a week later and wanted me to go ahead with it...I found it funny that he decided to use me anyway and could not remember who the other outfit was who gave him the lower price.


That happens to me sometimes, too. On one of the instances after the job was done I had to chase him for a month to collect. When I called he would say he was a visitor in the house. He ignored bills. Eventually I filed theft of services and the city solicitor took the case for me as he knows me and it turned out he was a convicted felon for tax evasion. He finally stuck the check in my mailbox with a note that said "here s your f cking money". Lucky for both of us I wasn t home when he came by.


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## oldugly (Apr 7, 2007)

Hey Clearance, nice to hear from you buddy.
Recently had a customer wanting a price...so I quoted what was a fair deal. He thought he should talk it over with his wife, so in a matter of moments I was selling the job again. The wife asks if I could do a package deal for a hundred dollars less...I just simply said my work wasn't up for auction, but if she wanted a local auctioneer she could call one, but I didn't think he did tree removals.
Later..got a call from someone else who wanted a price on a couple removals. I quoted a good price and got the same response. I used the same line again that there was an auction service in town...but I didn't think they did tree trimming.
When I go to Wally world, or Cub I never get the chance to ask the sales clerk for a better deal...why do they think contractors have to haggle over prices...it has gotten past irritation to degradation scale in some cases. I feel for you Dada, but look up, and have some pride. These guys lowballing bids just to get the work, in the long run won't be able to afford to do the work they get. Short change yourself, and you short change us all.
Redoak


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## oldugly (Apr 7, 2007)

By the way, in both instances I got the jobs at the price I quoted originally.


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 8, 2007)

a while back I gave a guy a price on a couple small removals and a couple of trims all in the same yard. He said theyd think it over and get back. Called a week or so later and said go ahead. Then bout 3 wks went by and he called again and said theyd had a change of plans. Well, last week, he called AGAIN and said he'd done the work now wanted a price on cleanup.

This was the real topper - he said he had a new found respect for the job I do and he should have just paid me my original price. BTW, he cleaned it up himself.


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## hobby climber (Apr 8, 2007)

I find that very few people know much about the work we do! I take the time to educate them as to what I'll be doing & why. Its also good for bisness because when I'm up a tree and the neighbours start to gather, the owner is telling them what I just told him! 

You always get those characters who will underbid you in the spring. Who cares, a solid reputation will keep a reputable company employed year round. As for the others, once word gets out, they'll be gone as fast as they came! 

Besides, even if they are good, eventually they will have to raise there prices or risk starving. Then they'll have a reputation of inconcistant quoting and will not last long in any event! Just my .02
HC


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## Bermie (Apr 8, 2007)

I just bid a job, several different parts to it, some directional felling, some dismantling and felling and a couple of small reductions. 
We were walking about the site looking at the work and the client kept saying, well this also needs doing, and this little tree needs so and so...
We settled on I would bid the main work and then cost and charge the extras, bid accepted, cost and charge rate accepted (with minimum).
I felt very relieved, I bid the work at what I needed, gave them options for what they needed and we are all happy.

Mind you, what helped was they have been trying to get the local landscrapers to do the work, but they always had an excuse, need a high lift, didn't bring our saws...NONE of the work needs a high lift and they are mowing experts not tree workers!!

I've had no return calls or emails on some estimates, I reckon they are not used to the prices, but WE are the professionals in this area, and don't bid anything else, not like the 'do everything' landscapers. I reckon these were jobs I didn't need the headaches from anyway!


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## Ekka (Apr 8, 2007)

How do you like the ones who get you, the knowledgeable qualified guy, walk you around their trees one by one milking your brain.

All in the name of a "free bid". 

You write down the estimate for all the work to be done, detailed so you yourself don't forget and they cant get more out of you (the ole while ya got ya saw out), some trees need specialised work, the schedule changed greatly from what the prospect originally enquired about.

You don't get the job but drive past to see it done by some-one else, yes the prunes were spiked and some not so good cutting done.

In one chronic instance a woman asked for a bid on removing a large gum tree limb that was coming over the fence from the neibs tree and over her garage. The neib was OK with it. I bid $385 on it, was quite a job and access bad. She said her lawn man quoted only $200 but didn't know how to do it so can I tell her how I'd do it so she could tell him!!!! 

The line between advice and free bid is always abused, try getting free advice from your solicitor, I'm constantly amazed by the amount of time we throw away to these ungrateful heathens... to be then undercut. They don't go to the rogues first coz they're just labourers. I've seen perfectly healthy, relatively safe, reasonably located trees removed coz the rogues say things like "jeez love, that's a bad one there, that'll bust ya house and driveway best get rid of it now". etc etc.


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## hobby climber (Apr 9, 2007)

Guys,


No one likes to be under bid on a properly quoted job. But its the customers choice and they are the ones who have to live with there decision (right or wrong)! Its just our passion for proper tree care and quality work that gets most of us upset with the customers poor choices. 

As far as the low ballers go...ask yourself this question: How many low ball companies do you know that last more that a couple of years? If your answer is very few or non... then that just means you have pride & passion for proper tree care and are one of the good guys in this bisness! HC


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## BC_Logger (Apr 9, 2007)

Its a fact of life these days people go for the lowest price and they usually pay the price in the form of quality of work 

All you can do is quote , shake their hand and say , good luck 

you take pride in your work, apparently the other guy does not


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## SawWitch (Apr 9, 2007)

BC_Logger said:


> Its a fact of life these days people go for the lowest price and they usually pay the price in the form of quality of work
> 
> All you can do is quote , shake their hand and say , good luck
> 
> you take pride in your work, apparently the other guy does not




Look away from the price. Thats we are doing. Look for the security, it's very important!


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## Flubberboy (Apr 10, 2007)

Last week I went out to get my mail at my home. A guy in an old rusty pickup pulls in my drive and says he does tree work. He wants to remove a large limb hanging over my house. Just for fun I had him shoot me a price.

After looking the tree over for a while he tells me it'd be $950. (a job I'd charge $300 for). Then he tells me that before he can get started he needs me to advance him $100 so he can get his chainsaw out of pawn. (it gets worse!)

He then explains that he loaned his saw to a friend who pawned it so he first has to go to the bar to find his friend and get the pawn ticket!

There's no rhyme or reason to the way these people do business.


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## PowersTree (Apr 11, 2007)

I get looked down on becuase I dont have a chipper. Alot will call me a lowballer because of this. I am legit with insurance. And the lowballing that i see around here is a few of the "profesional" companies.

Jobs that id put $1800 on and think they are getting a deal, a guy around here is putting $800 on. Yeah he may get it done faster, but the climbing part is what we should be getting paid for.

Even on the takedown onlys, no cleanup, still the same slashing of price.


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## senechal (Apr 15, 2007)

lxt said:


> the problem is IMO people have cheapened this trade by lumping it into grass cutting, landscaping, gutter cleaning, etc....I started doing landscaping(which I have done professionally before getting into tree work)just to get back at the bums stealing all the easy work & leaving me with the big, dead ugly hangin over the house trees.



From the landscaping side of things, there are still many of us out there trying to bring some dignity back to the trade and push forward towards professional operation. In my golf course days, I sat under the wing of certified arborists which were committed to my development in the tree department, and I was committed to learn. I set aside a lot more income for education than I can really afford, but I can assure you I am not the only one in terms of future generations of Landscape tree workers.

My employer provides a broad range of services, yes. As for underbidding, we don't go hunting for tree jobs. The amount of jobs I have forwarded to professional arborists as an experienced and educated tree worker is clearly an angle that many haven't considered. I'm not out to take money out of professionals pockets, but prior to my switch over to landscaping, the company's previous tree worker was leaning off of ladders doing reach flush cuts with an 026, and pole prunes with fiskars crap. 

6 months later, standards of equipment and practice are in place from this day forward.


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## RolloriClimber (Apr 17, 2007)

I think underbidding kills the hole industry.

I was helping out this tree service and a neighbor wanted a bid on a tree the tree service owner had me go with him to look at it, it was a 10-12" diameter about 75 foot tall pine, broke about 15 foot up leaning into a bigger pine wanting to fall towards the house.

He bid it at $200.00 to get it down and haul it away and $100.00 just to get it down. both prices were under bid but we where right down the street finishing a job with a large crew and equipment so it would pan out at those prices.

The home owner says that he just bought a husky saw from loews for $300.00 and he didn't think getting some one to do it would cost that much.

If it where my bid I would of turned and walked back to the truck and said have a nice day. Or, Well if you got a saw why are you calling me for? have fun with your $300.00 saw.

But the tree service owner came back with $75.00 to get it down.I rode with him back to the job with the rest of the crew,on the way I told him about a guy trying to talk me down before and the price got to $75.00 and I told that guy I wouldn't take the saw out of my truck for $75.00.

Well I ended up going down there and doing the tree myself, It took about $1500.00 in climbing gear, $1180.00 in saws, $800.00 in rigging ,what ever $ amount the guy pays for comp and liability, fuel , ex............

That tree service owner thinks if the people have a lot of trees that will need work in the future putting in a low bid will get him in the door next time. But I believe if they are calling around to more than 3 companies to get the cheapest price than they will do the same the next time they need work done. I won't go do a estimate if it is a bit of a drive and they already have gotten 3 or more bids.

The low bidders will put them selfs out of buisness is my thought , because we know what it takes for the up keep and purchasing of even the bottom line of equipment , and doing it that way will get you either a bunch of broke down equipment or a broke back or both.

Cheap Work Is not Good
and
Good Work Is not Cheap

This is the slowest its been for me in 11 to 12 years, I'm still doing my best to hang tough. every one else do the same.


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## RolloriClimber (Apr 17, 2007)

I think underbidding kills the hole industry.

I was helping out this tree service and a neighbor wanted a bid on a tree the tree service owner had me go with him to look at it, it was a 10-12" diameter about 75 foot tall pine, broke about 15 foot up leaning into a bigger pine wanting to fall towards the house.

He bid it at $200.00 to get it down and haul it away and $100.00 just to get it down. both prices were under bid but we where right down the street finishing a job with a large crew and equipment so it would pan out at those prices.

The home owner says that he just bought a husky saw from loews for $300.00 and he didn't think getting some one to do it would cost that much.

If it where my bid I would of turned and walked back to the truck and said have a nice day. Or, Well if you got a saw why are you calling me for? have fun with your $300.00 saw.

But the tree service owner came back with $75.00 to get it down.I rode with him back to the job with the rest of the crew,on the way I told him about a guy trying to talk me down before and the price got to $75.00 and I told that guy I wouldn't take the saw out of my truck for $75.00.

Well I ended up going down there and doing the tree myself, It took about $1500.00 in climbing gear, $1180.00 in saws, $800.00 in rigging ,what ever $ amount the guy pays for comp and liability, fuel , ex............

That tree service owner thinks if the people have a lot of trees that will need work in the future putting in a low bid will get him in the door next time. But I believe if they are calling around to more than 3 companies to get the cheapest price than they will do the same the next time they need work done. I won't go do a estimate if it is a bit of a drive and they already have gotten 3 or more bids.

The low bidders will put them selfs out of buisness is my thought , because we know what it takes for the up keep and purchasing of even the bottom line of equipment , and doing it that way will get you either a bunch of broke down equipment or a broke back or both.

Cheap Work Is not Good
and
Good Work Is not Cheap

This is the slowest its been for me in 11 to 12 years, I'm still doing my best to hang tough. every one else do the same.


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## Ekka (Apr 17, 2007)

I was yacking in the brew shop today picking up a few kegs.

The delivery man drops in and interupts the conversation the owner and I were having.

Asks if I do tree work and the brewshop owner butts in and say sure, he's good, done heaps around my place ... the delivery guy looks at me and says ...

... "I dont care how good he is as long as he's cheap." :deadhorse:

To which I responded, " how cheap I am depends on how much of your place I'm allowed to smash up."


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## ddhlakebound (Apr 17, 2007)

Here's my underbidding idiots story of the month. We're still working on cleanup and trimming from january's ice storm, and a guy in my area, who we know, called us for a bid to trim 14 trees on his rental property, plus 2 removals, and also trim damage from 6 large oaks in his front yard, trim a few more smaller trees, and remove two more trees on his home property. One of these was and old, 90% dead white oak, 36-40" and 40+' tall. 

The six large oaks in his front yard would have been very difficult and time consuming to trim, as they had much breakage, and few or no good tie ins above much of the breakage. Much easier for a bucket truck or lift than a climber. 

When I stopped by to formulate a bid, another guy was there, looking at the trees. We knew that the customer was cheap, even though he's fairly wealthy. (Owns multiple properties, and a large herd of cattle.) 

After I spent 45 minutes, and deciding that if I bid how long those oaks were going to take, I'd never get the bid, I decided to try and compete with what I though the bucket truck crew would bid. 

The rental property was no problem. I had it at $1800. His home property I had at $2000, and that was pretty low. I would have liked to price it at $3200.00. 

I called my partner, who knows the guy better than I, and he said "There's no way in hell he will pay that". "Yeah, I said, thats how I feel too." 

I told the customer that I couln't really compete with the bucket truck crew's bid because of how long the oaks would take climbing, and declined to give him a bid. 

Last week, a crew was in to do the job. My partners dad lives a couple hundred yards away, and he kept an eye on the crew, just for something to do. They spent four days total, first 2 days with 8 guys, and 2 bucket trucks. Then two more days with 4-5 guys and a chipper and chip truck. I'm guessing they had a minimum of 70 man hours in the job. 

All the trees were hacked and whacked. I don't think I saw one lateral cut, and I'm pretty sure if they cut at any nodes it was pure luck. Many cuts were torn out from the lack of an undercut. The second day of the job, the property owner was pulling around one of the bucket trucks with his tractor, because it had broken down. Pony engine for the boom. I have no idea how they took it out when they were done. They knocked out the power, my partners dad was out of power for 4-5 hrs, along with several other houses on that road. I don't know exactly how they did that. About 6-7 feet of trunk is still laying in his front yard from the large oak removal. I guess they didn't have a saw big enough, or one that would cut straight enough to block it. 

My partners dad had asked the owner how much all this was costing him. Turns out, nobody was happy in the end. The owner paid $1600, and thought the guys were highway robbers. I'm sure the crew didn't do too well either, with four days of fuel use, 70+ man hours, and a broken bucket truck, for $1600. 

I'm just glad I declined to give him a bid. Some people are great to work for, and expect good work for a good price. Having and idea of which ones are good to work for and which aren't makes it easier. If we hadn't known he was cheap ahead of time, we'd have insulted him even after taking $1200 off what we thought the job was worth. 

Fair tradeoff for him. He pays 1/3 of what good work would cost, and gets his trees wrecked even worse than they were after the storm. I'm not to worried about that tree company sticking around for long....they won't be able to afford to, and theres no way people will be happy with their work if they charge more. Pure hackery. Its the trees that suffer.


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## rebelman (Apr 17, 2007)

There is a new crew lately that is advertising the old underbid any estimate. So I've noticed a rash of angled flush cuts all over the place. I sent a strongly worded email to one client. I would rant awhile, but don't have time.


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## treevet (Apr 17, 2007)

rebelman said:


> There is a new crew lately that is advertising the old underbid any estimate. So I've noticed a rash of angled flush cuts all over the place. I sent a strongly worded email to one client. I would rant awhile, but don't have time.


Vandalism for profit! I don t think it hurts to go down in flames w a little attitude and I don t think it entirely hurts your rep around town to "flip out" once in a while on an estimate. People around an area generally know who the cheapskates are. Hey just look at their car, unpainted house, guy w a smoking non selfpropelled mower servicing their lawn. A good well placed "flip out" once in a while gets around town too and discerning people can respect that. I love to indulge in a good "tell off" periodically.


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## Justice (Apr 19, 2007)

I think we have all run into this. 

A good one a couple years ago: I was asked by a friend who was opening a business to prune some tree's back that were overhanging his parking lot, and trim back some limbs blocking his sign out front. I quoted $650.

I saw him at the gym and he told me that his partner went ahead and hired the landscaper to do the work. "OK" "thats OK", loosing a bid is no big deal.

A week later I see him and he asks me if I could still do the work we talked about. I said "sure", but "what happened?"

Well the landscaper was pruning back the branches over the parking lot with one foot on the top of a ladder and one foot on the fence at the same time. Of course he fell, over the fence, into the back yard of someones house and cracked his skull open. The police were there, and an ambulance and now the home owner was "really P___ED off.... I just looked at him and smirked. 
I trimmed the tree in front away from the sign (5 cuts) for $350. He was VERY happy and they all learned a good lesson


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## cANDYman (Apr 19, 2007)

*thats business*

I agree with whoever mentioned that some companies just have less expense than others. I have low overhead, and seem to charge less. I am not married, younge, and a growing business. So I am cheaper than my friends who know better. I think their are responsible companies out there that might on any given day need to do a job at a less than normal price, and vice versa. Thats how it works. I never was a hack, but did work myself to death for jobs because I thought it was alot of money, only to realize that I wasnt really able to keep up equipment and saftey, peace of mind. Im getting better, Cut-Right Tree Inc. N.C.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 19, 2007)

diltree said:


> One more thing Asplundh under bid me on a town contract today....I hate those orange trucks!!!!!


they are the reason I was laid off, they are one of the worst under bidders there is.


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## booboo (Apr 21, 2007)

Here's my most recent underbidding story, not really underbidding but certainly lowballing.

I get a call from a guy with some lakeside cabins that have never really had any tree maintenance. Some big trees, some small trees. He wants to start by removing hazard/junk trees. Sounds like he's headed the right direction. We meet, and he tells me that he's got a price of $500 from a crane crew to put 5 trees near the parking lot onto the ground. He's going to take care of the brush and wood. 2 sugar maples, each about 20", a white birch, also about 20" and 2 large basswoods, both about 26-28". All are easy takedowns, each with a little ropework but a large landing zone (the parking lot), except 1 of the basswoods. Most of that tree is over the neighbor's roof and the lean is heavily towards the neighbor's house. He ask's if I can do better than $500 for all 5. My answer is no way. I ask if he's got the crane price in writing, and he says no. I tell him to get the crane price in writing and look as it as though he's paying $500 for the one basswood and getting the other 4 for free.

Then he says he wants a price on 3 more takedowns by the cabins that the crane crew didn't give him a price on because they can't get to them with the crane. All 3 are red maples, about 24" DBH. One just needs to be stripped and dumped, another has a dead top leaning over a cabin and a guy wire near the base, but is still pretty basic ropework, and the last one is short, but doesn't have much of a central TIP and is over 2 cabins and some smaller trees he wants to save. The landing zone is really small so it will have to be chunked down in pretty small pieces. Once again, he'll take care of the brush and wood, which is always cool by me. I tell him $450 for the 3, here's the bid in writing. He didn't even balk, which surprised me a bit. I even told him it was going to be at least a month before we could get there and he was fine with that.

Here's what I suspect will happen. We'll do the 3 red maples and the trees by the parking lot won't have been done yet. Probably sometime in the fall, I'll get a call for a price on the other 5 because the crane crew will still not have shown up. And I seriously doubt he'll ever get thier price in writing. Anyone want to take bets?


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