# Interesting Urban Milling project



## BobL (Aug 8, 2014)

The Tree Lopper I have been working with is in the middle of quoting on an interesting Urban milling project that involves redeveloping a relatively large abandoned inner suburban public use site that has about 70 trees on it. The facility has been surplus to local requirements and closed for a number of years while asbestos was removed from some of the buildings before they were demolished. 
The city owners of the site are looking at a very interesting development that involves 
- keeping some of the trees as part of a park
- using some of the trees as lumber to build a children's playground and seating within the park
- milling the remainder for use within mostly housing type buildings on the site.
He's asked me if I want to be involved and I have said yes. 
Because of the number of trees involved, a CSM is not going to cut it, so the tree lopper is now looking at the cost of purchasing a medium sized BS. The trees are a mix of local hardwoods and quite a few imported softwoods. Because of space and other issues the logs are not likely to be milled on site but back at the tree loppers depot. Some of the trees would be too big for the BS so we would probably need to split these in half with a CSM. It's not a fully sealed deal yet but if it comes off it could be a very interesting project


----------



## GrantD (Aug 9, 2014)

Sounds like an interesting project to be involved in. With the owner's desire to reuse some of the milled wood in housing (I'm assuming restroom facilities and such), have they discussed kiln drying at all? Or are the plans to use it green?

Do you all have accessibility issues you have to contend with/ design around there? Just curious, because here in the US we have to plan around ADA (american disability act) requirements on any type of government facility/property that includes any type on ingress/egress, use, etc.


----------



## BobL (Aug 9, 2014)

GrantD said:


> Sounds like an interesting project to be involved in. With the owner's desire to reuse some of the milled wood in housing (I'm assuming restroom facilities and such), have they discussed kiln drying at all? Or are the plans to use it green?


The stuff for the playground can be used green. The issue of kiln drying we are looking at. It's quite a long project in terms of time so this might be able to be handled within the proposed time line. 

.


> Do you all have accessibility issues you have to contend with/ design around there? Just curious, because here in the US we have to plan around ADA (american disability act) requirements on any type of government facility/property that includes any type on ingress/egress, use, etc.


Yep we have that too but the housing will probably be privately developed for private so they won't have as much onus on them to follow these as closely as for public facilities.


----------



## Dave Boyt (Aug 12, 2014)

Sounds like a great project. Which band saw mills are you looking at? I wish I could get the local city folks to do something like that. Just about everything gets chipped up. They did sell one very nice walnut tree out of a park for over $8,000. I wonder where that money went...


----------



## BobL (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm not sure what is happening BS wise as I've been tied with aspects of the building and fitting out of a nearby community Workshop and haven't been able to catch up with the Tree Lopper. We did discuss BSMs a while back and he was talking about a 30" cut. A big factor will probably be support as we are a long way from anywhere.


----------



## BobL (Aug 14, 2014)

Had a coupla beers with the Tree Loper today and we discussed the project and bandsaws. He's very keen on the Norwood even though the agent is on our East coast. I suggested if he was close to a decision that I should start to look around for an experienced BS miller and see if I can go spend a few days with them to learn the basics and he said "do it". I have located a BS miller about 200 miles away who is cutting up some very interesting stuff so will see what he says.


----------



## Dave Boyt (Aug 14, 2014)

The Norwood is a tough mill, and easy to maintain. I've bumped my HD36 with the loader, dropped logs on it, and milled in some pretty tight places. If something were to happen to it, I would replace it with the same model. Milling logs 36" diameter takes some effort, but anything under 30" is a piece of cake. Bob, you've got the basics down with the chain saw mill, and the bandmill should be easy for you.


----------



## BobL (Aug 14, 2014)

Thanks Dave. I have been following the odd discussion on BS milling on this forum but realise there's no substitute for practical experience.


----------



## Ben Hankins (Aug 14, 2014)

BobL said:


> Thanks Dave. I have been following the odd discussion on BS milling on this forum but realise there's no substitute for practical experience.




BobL- You seem to be the resident expert on CS Mills. I posted under Newb asking for advice. I've been wanting to mill for several years and finally decided to pull the trigger. I'm thinking about the Norwood CS mill and a new dolmar 6400. What are your thoughts? More info on my earlier post. Sorry to hijack your post. Thank you.


----------



## BobL (Aug 14, 2014)

Ben Hankins said:


> BobL- You seem to be the resident expert on CS Mills. I posted under Newb asking for advice. I've been wanting to mill for several years and finally decided to pull the trigger. I'm thinking about the Norwood CS mill and a new dolmar 6400. What are your thoughts? More info on my earlier post. Sorry to hijack your post. Thank you.



Hi Ben - sorry I'm not familiar with any of the Norwood mills so I can't really comment on them. Hopefully someone who has used one can chime in.


----------



## Ben Hankins (Aug 14, 2014)

BobL said:


> Hi Ben - sorry I'm not familiar with any of the Norwood mills so I can't really comment on them. Hopefully someone who has used one can chime in.


Thank you sir.


----------



## BobL (Aug 15, 2014)

BobL said:


> Hi Ben - sorry I'm not familiar with any of the Norwood mills so I can't really comment on them. Hopefully someone who has used one can chime in.


I downloaded the Norwood catalog because the Tree Lopper I work with is thinking of getting a Norwood BS and I had a closer look at the Norwood CS mill and can make a couple of comments about what I can see and general "Carriage" mill design.

It looks like it stows easily, is quick to setup and easy to use.
Operating the mill from an upright position is a real plus but this can also be done with an alaskan especially if the log is sloped, see below.

Using a CS for milling involves a lot of sharpening or chain swapping so any CS mill should make this as easy as possible. I can sharpen my saws or swap the chains while they are in the mill - this is a major advantage and you should look to see if this is possible or if not how quickly the saw can be removed from the mill for sharpening. Not that the Granberg is any easier as the saw has to be removed from the Granberg if the chain has to be swapped out.

I can't tell from the catalog how firmly the outboard end is held. The Norwood recommends a small bar size so that suggests not all that firmly but it should be fine for narrow cuts.
Of course you will want to cut bigger logs - just about every does and then you will be restricted to what you can cut.

One thing that would bug me was having the sawdust falling all over the ladder and having to stop and clean this away from time to time. My custom setup has the sawdust falling into the exhaust stream which blows it away from the operator so the operator is not walking on the sawdust

The main reason I don't like carriage designs for CS milling is the log cannot easily be sloped and then use the weight of the mill to cut under it's own weight so very little pushing of the mill is required. A mill that keeps milling under its own weight (even for 30 seconds or so) is useful because you can let it go and go get and insert wedges, have a drink or do something else.


----------



## Ben Hankins (Aug 16, 2014)

That is awesome feedback. I read somewhere, maybe one of your comments, that the bar needs to be supported at both ends or the custom will always be uneven. That is the major concern I had also. I think I will go with a 30" Alaskan with a ms661 and 36" bar. Do you think the 661 will have an issue turning that big bar in a milling setup? I went yesterday and priced the saw. I wanted to go with the ms880 but with the price difference I may start with a 661. What are your thoughts on dolmar saws? I'm guessing the saw may get used less than 100 hours a year milling and then to cut firewood with a 25" bar. Just wondering if I'm jumping in the deep end when I should try the kiddy pool first? Ha 

Thanks again for your advice!


----------



## BobL (Aug 16, 2014)

Ben Hankins said:


> That is awesome feedback. I read somewhere, maybe one of your comments, that the bar needs to be supported at both ends or the custom will always be uneven. That is the major concern I had also. I think I will go with a 30" Alaskan with a ms661 and 36" bar. Do you think the 661 will have an issue turning that big bar in a milling setup?


Folks here in Oz are using the 660 series in our tough hardwoods with bars up to 42" (36" cut on a standard alaskan) with no probs.



> I went yesterday and priced the saw. I wanted to go with the ms880 but with the price difference I may start with a 661. What are your thoughts on dolmar saws? I'm guessing the saw may get used less than 100 hours a year milling and then to cut firewood with a 25" bar. Just wondering if I'm jumping in the deep end when I should try the kiddy pool first? Ha


I'd much rather be cutting the firewood with a 661 than an 880 and with a 25" bar you won't notice much if any difference is cutting speed between an 880 and 661 as both saws are chain speed limited at that bar size. The 660 has a greater chain speed so using standard chains and sprockets in small logs the 660 may outcut the 880.. Of course the greater torque of the 880 means it can utilise a more aggressive chain setting and higher pin count drive sprockets so that an 880 should be able to outcut the 660 but some finessing is required to do this


----------



## Ben Hankins (Aug 17, 2014)

BobL said:


> Folks here in Oz are using the 660 series in our tough hardwoods with bars up to 42" (36" cut on a standard alaskan) with no probs.
> 
> Ok so what I'm narrowing a bead on is a ms661 42" bar, 36" Alaskan mill, and a Granberg mini mill. I've also been looking at building some benches and a picnic table for my girlfriend. She has been checking out my watch later on YouTube. She's asking for some "cute" furniture for a cabin for the kiddos. I let her call them cute, bc now she's not complaining about the $ I'm spending! Lol
> 
> ...


----------



## BobL (Aug 18, 2014)

Ben Hankins said:


> We don't have many exotics around here but plenty of walnut, cedar, oak, and ash. I've always been a big fan of cedar. For looks and I love the smell! Just wondering what your thoughts are on what type of oils or epoxy everyone is using? I know I want to use cedar and keep that natural red for the benches.



I guess that depends where you are on the planet. Those species are all exotics to me.


----------



## Ben Hankins (Aug 18, 2014)

BobL said:


> I guess that depends where you are on the planet. Those species are all exotics to me.




That's deep BobL...glass half full perspective! Lol


----------



## BobL (Aug 19, 2014)

The tree lopper has identified a used bandsaw that is literally 3 minutes away from his depot and we are going to look at it tomorrow. It turns out I know the seller and he is a reliable bloke and would be more than willing to provide ongoing advice etc. The seller is apparently getting a bigger more automated BSM so it will be interesting to see what he gets. I'll see if I can take some pics.


----------



## BobL (Aug 20, 2014)

We went and had a quick look at the used BSM (sorry no pics yet). 
It has a max cut length of 16 ft and a max of 35" wide cut. 
27Hp Motor and electrical vertical movement of the carriage. 
Everything else is manual.
There are about 10 spare blades 
Mechanically it's in solid shape but cosmetically it needs some of TLC.
There were stacks of timber around it that had been cut with it and they looked very straight.
We're thinking about it, I'm going back next week to see it running.


----------



## BobL (Aug 27, 2014)

We went and saw the BSM running and the Tree lopper has decided to buy.

Here are a couple of pics. I have a movie of it running I will try and edit out a segment of and post.
Like I said, some cosmetic work needed otherwise it seemed to run very nicely.
Delivery is sometime next week - now to get on the learning curve.


----------



## Nato (Aug 31, 2014)

Well it's all over now. You've gone to the dark side....traitor....


----------



## BobL (Aug 31, 2014)

Nato said:


> Well it's all over now. You've gone to the dark side....traitor....



Not really. The BSM is not mobile so in some case I will still mill stuff on site.


----------



## BobL (Oct 10, 2014)

Well after nearly 8 weeks of to and fro I am pleased to report that we went and picked up the BS mill this morning. Currently it's in several large pieces on the back of a truck while we prepare the area where it will be setup.
Will post some picks once its up and running. Meanwhile the stash of logs is now up to over 40 so I will be busy once the mill is up and running.


----------



## BobL (Nov 15, 2014)

We decide to put down a 5" concrete slab to put the mill on.



Then we decided to tackle some of the surface rust.
Here it is before the treatment.



We decided to use a tannate passivator as there is already a fair bit of tannin on the mill. 
Here it is after the treatment - the red orange bits are now brown/black.



Some of you may be interested in the piles of logs in behind the mill of which there are now around 100 - not all for milling - some are for nature playground construction


----------



## CR888 (Nov 15, 2014)

Bob...you certainly live the dream. Nice cleanup of the bandsaw. We kinda hope you don't get too used to it but l am sure it will speed up production and give good results.


----------



## Boon (Nov 16, 2014)

Looks like a rewarding project Bob. Nice to see you being part of the project, no doubt deserve it after all the time, effort and knowledge you have put into milling and the help you give to so many people online.

Am looking forward to more pics from beautiful W.A.


----------



## mike walsh (Nov 17, 2014)

did that truck belong to tim keevil once apon a time


----------



## BobL (Nov 18, 2014)

mike walsh said:


> did that truck belong to tim keevil once apon a time


Sorry Mike I wouldn't know.


----------



## Dave Boyt (Nov 18, 2014)

Congratulations on the mill. With your background, you'll have a pile of sawdust around it in no time. Of course, you'll need to resist the urge to sharpen the blade and add fuel after every cut, and drive wedges to open the kerf. Just keep the log stops & clamps lower than the blade, and remember to tension the blade before you start cutting.


----------



## BobL (Nov 18, 2014)

Dave Boyt said:


> Congratulations on the mill. With your background, you'll have a pile of sawdust around it in no time. Of course, you'll need to resist the urge to sharpen the blade and add fuel after every cut, and drive wedges to open the kerf. Just keep the log stops & clamps lower than the blade, and remember to tension the blade before you start cutting.


Thanks Dave, I am under no illusions that I have to start a new learning curve and thanks for the advice.


----------



## Dave Boyt (Nov 18, 2014)

Bob, you already have a good understanding of wood and how it behaves. That's the complicated part. Machines seem to be second nature to you, so you'll probably repeat your mistakes fewer times than I did/will.


----------



## Kicker_92 (Nov 19, 2014)

Having finally converted this year from CSM to a manual bandsaw mill, I agree with what Dave said. You know how to read a log, the feel of cutting when you hit knots etc, and how to cut for grade or quartersaw.

Watching out for metal no longer means just nails and stuff in the log. I killed two blades in the first week, one on a support post, and the other on the handle of one of the log dogs!
You'll love the speed of ripping off layers of 5/4 boards that woudl have usually been scrap. and being able to just toss on some low grade logs and quickly make cants and stickers.

Ryan (misses sawing 32ft+ beams though)


----------



## BobL (Nov 22, 2014)

I put a coat of paint on the mill today and had just finished cleaning up and was about to take some pics when the boss turned up at the end of the day with the new Dinasaw bandsaw blade sharpener and setter still in their packaging so of course I had to help setting them up. 

While unpacking the grinder I got the middle finger of my left hand (same one I mangled in a goods elevator door in 2010) caught in the mechanism and the full weight of the grinder on the end of its arm squished my finger hard enough for it to bleed all around the finger nail.

At that point we decided it was time to stop for a medicinal beer or 2 and put the finger on ic,e and after that it was time to go home. Finger is sore but not as bad as I thought I was going to be.

Pics will have to wait until Monday.


----------



## Jim Timber (Nov 22, 2014)

I hope your finger pulls through without too much discomfort. The mill's looking good!


----------



## BobL (Nov 25, 2014)

Most oif the BS Mill got a lick of paint last week and here are some pics I took today.
Don't look too close, it's really just a coat to keep a lid on the external rust and nothing like a full refurb which is what I would have done if it was mine.

Anyway it should do the job.

Front



Back (the unpainted black bits are going to be greased up anyway so it was not worth painting them)



I charged the battery and fired it up to see how it ran - no cutting though, blade was off.

I also assembled the new Dinasaw BS blade sharpener and setter

Fully Auto (start it and walk away - apparently) Sharpener.
Takes about 3 seconds to sharpen a tooth and toggles on to the next one and when its done the full set it turns itself off.



Dinasaw setter. works on a manual crank, about one tooth per second.



Neither units are adjusted yet so I can comment on how good a job they do and I won't really know until I start cutting


----------



## BobL (Nov 27, 2014)

I spent a few hours today coming to grips with the sharpener.

For standard sharpening there are 6 adjustments/knobs/settings/screws
Hook Angle AdjustmentTooth Stroke
Feed Pawl Presentation (height)
Tooth Position
Tooth Shape
Bevel Tooth Grinding—MSA

I experimented with the first 5 settings to see if I could get it to automatically do a basic grind.

All of the 10 blades we have are the same TPI but are set LRL so MSA cannot be used unless the teeth are reset to a Left - Right - Centre, or Right - Left - Centre pattern
The time to reset the teeth is when the blades have minimal set left on them so that will have to wait until a few more sharpenings

It took me about 2 hours to get it set up and learn what each of the 5 things does.
Next time I go to the yard I'm bringing a label maker so I don't have to keep referring back to the manual to determine what does what and in what direction.

Unless a different size/TPI blade is used it should only take a few minutes to set up a similar blade next time.
If a different size size/TPI blade is used it will take a bit longer but of course one would get faster with practice.

It takes 6 minute and 45 seconds for it to automatically complete a full circuit of all the teeth.
That's about as quick as I can touch up all the cutters on my 42" chainsaw chains but of course one would expect to get a lot more sq ft cut with one BS blade sharpening.

The gentlest way to sharpen is supposedly with several light multiple passes.

Here's a short vid of it running.

Sorry its not too clear, ordinary mobile phone and low lighting under shed veranda don't help.

This was the third of 3 passes. 

The grinder might sound like it's labouring but its capable of taking off more in one pass. According to an experienced sharpener there is too much being taken off the front of the tooth in this pass. It's not a big deal as I've basically set this blade aside as a practice blade. 

Anyway I reckon I got the blade to the point where it was worth using it on the BS but it was raining so that will have to wait.

When I folded up the blade I chickened out doing it without gloves (as I usually do) as the pointy bits were very pointy.
You can see I haven't cleaned out the entire gullet but I reckon it will still make some sawdust.


----------



## Jim Timber (Nov 27, 2014)

Your dog running around that grinder makes me cringe Bob. I've had 6 metal fragments in my eyes (3 from grinding) and I was wearing eye protection for all of them but one (buddy lit me up by accident for that one).


----------



## BobL (Nov 27, 2014)

The dogs have a death wish. The small one will charge up within inches of and barks furiously at a running chainsaw. When I used canola oil in the aux oiler they both lick the bar and chain clean.


----------



## Jim Timber (Nov 27, 2014)

I guess you suck at sharpening then.  j/k!


----------



## BobL (Dec 12, 2014)

Just a bit of an update with the Bandsaw mill.
I finally put a log on the mill and made half a dozen cuts.
Given that I was using the blade that was my first attempt at sharpening the cutting speed is fine but making these cuts highlighted two problems with the mill.

The first is that although the mill has a 35" wide cut, the blade could only be raised 20" above the height of the log rails.
A quick inspection showed that the original design of the mill limited the maximum height to 26" inches but some modifications and additions to guards had been made by the previous owner that prevented the carriage from being raised more than 20".
So out with the angle grinder and a thin cut off wheel and I cut small non-critical pieces off some guards, and I replaced o guard bracket with another one that did not get in the way.
I also replaced an original carriage bracket that was in the way with another that still did the intended job but did not conflict.
All this means the blade can now reach a height of 28".
I could get another 2" of vertical movement but that will mean mean rebuilding the fuel tank frame.

The second problem related to hog holding during cutting. 
The mill came with one of these adjustable height clamps on blade entry side



And 4 of the log support rails have these on the blade exits side


The 2 x 2: internal sockets welded to the side of the support are designed to hold either short lengths of steel square tubing, or wooden poles, which the log can be pushed up against (by the clamp above) while cutting.
Once the cant is squared up the regular shaped cant can just be held by the 1/2" thick pieces of steel plate welded to the top of the support rails.

Although this all seemed to work well enough for the small regular shaped logs we saw being cut by the previous owner I was not happy with this for the irregular shaped log I was trying to cut.
The log was rocking too much during the cut especially at the end of the log that was not clamped

I figured at least one more log clamp would help so during the last week I have been making a prototype holder.
In the pic below mine is the silver green shown alongside the one that came with the mill
The original log clamp can be easily repositioned along the galvanised pipe but the galvanised pipe is welded to the log support frame and cannot be moved to another position.
The new one can be moved to any of the log support rails. 


Now I would like to make something similar for the other side so that the log is well and truly held firmly while it is being cut.


----------



## BobL (Dec 18, 2014)

I've been busy with other things but have found time to make 3 more log holders so now the mill has 5 holders and I can place up to 3 of these on the blade entry or blade exit side.


----------



## BobL (Apr 10, 2015)

After much procrastination, hot weather delays over summer, and pathetic excuses, I finally made it back to the tree loppers/milling yard yesterday and today.

The idea of these two days was for me to show the Tree loppers lads how to use the mill.
Of course it has to be the two wettest days so far this year so we had to work in between downpours and in soggy sawdust and mud.

The intention was not to give the lads a full blown tutorial on milling but more about how to basically run the mill.
This was a bit tricky because I would hardly call myself an expert in this mill having only cut up a couple f logs with it.

This is why I decided we would just cut up a few cants so they got the hang of how to set up a log, and reposition it to make an approximately rectangular shaped cants. Turning logs into cants will also save space in the tree loppers yard which is getting crowded with logs.

The first day started with the engine not starting - that turned out to be an air leak in a fuel line connector.
Then I had trouble with the blade that cut perfectly straight last time I used it but yesterday it was rising in the cut..
We eventually gave up on that one and put on a old re-sharpened band. This one had a bit too much hook for my liking but it's all part of the learning experience.

We started on a couple of small Lemons Scented Gums which were relatively dry and HARD.

Then we did several Swamp Mahognays (*Eucalyptus* robusta).
I have never milled one before and the wood is known to be quite attractive so I was keen to se what it looked like

Here is the first of the bigger logs.




The first cut was pretty spectacular



Before we could do any more the rain set in and we all got soaked.



This shows the side supports I made last year in action - these are working really well and will hold and adjust a fair size log in this position while the top face cut is being made.
That's Denis and Euan having a go.




Next we threw on a small Swamp Mahogany and decided to slab this one into 1" boards



Back to Lemon scented gum with Chris getting a go in the drivers seat. At this point the guys were doing it all themselves which let me get out of the rain and into the bog shed to start sharpening some blades - more about that in another post.



Finally Chris gets to have a go on a Lemon Scented Gum



Here is the final stash of cants cut up during the day.



With these semi squared off cants it will now be quite easy to grab one and cut it up to size to a clients requirements.

I just got home, soaked and grubby but feeling like we still had achieved something .
Now I'm really enthusiastic to get stick into the pile - especially if I can get the odd bit of help like this from time to time.


----------



## goncalo alves (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm unable to see the pictures? Anyone else having that issue?


----------



## les-or-more (Apr 10, 2015)

goncalo alves said:


> I'm unable to see the pictures? Anyone else having that issue?


same here


----------



## BobL (Apr 10, 2015)

Sorry - the images have been fixed.


----------



## goncalo alves (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks Bob, that is nice looking wood. What's the density of swamp mahogany?


----------



## BobL (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks GA, The of _Euc Rob_, density varies quite widely on the same tree and depending on where it grows. 

The sorts of numbers I have seen for trees in Western Australia Australia give it a green SG of around 0.85. This also means it's not that hard so it cuts very nicely - a good tree to learn on.

OTOH the Lemon Scented gum has a green SG of 1.15 (that means it sinks in water) and even the air dry density of 0.97 is pretty high.


----------

