# Friction hitches. Which one to use for different situations



## Carter Simmons (Jul 28, 2014)

Im new to tree climbing and i need to know many hitches to climb safley. Im just asking for advice. Email me at [email protected]
Thanks


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## yoyoman (Jul 29, 2014)

Here are a couple of vids that you may find useful. 
I find the VT smoothest and least wear on the i2i and the distel most compact.


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## Carter Simmons (Jul 30, 2014)

Thats funny. I just moved from atlanta


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Jul 30, 2014)

Yoyoman, your vt in your video is a french tresse. The difference is that the top side should cross under the bottom line on the second to last cross. It doesn't seem like much but it is a lot safer IMO.


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## yoyoman (Jul 30, 2014)

BuckmasterStumpGrinding said:


> Yoyoman, your vt in your video is a french tresse. The difference is that the top side should cross under the bottom line on the second to last cross. It doesn't seem like much but it is a lot safer IMO.


Got ya, I don't see much difference and at times I vary the braids depending on the wear and memory of the cord.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 30, 2014)

I've used this one forever...


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 31, 2014)

Time to evolve


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## woodchuck357 (Jul 31, 2014)

And all this time I thought VT stood for Valdotain Tresse! Guess I'll have to brush up my French.
I learned and used the taunt line hitch while in the Navy but never considered using it while climbing. 
I worked out what much later became known as blakes hitch and have been using it since the late sixties. I still use it a lot, but mostly use the same VT shown in the video.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Jul 31, 2014)

The vt grips better after it is advanced while the french has a tendency to slip after it is advanced.


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## miko0618 (Jul 31, 2014)

I use a blakes on my climb line and a schwabisch with my eye to eye cords. both are very predictable and trustworthy. I've tried and used a bunch more but I like these 2 for their simplicity.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 1, 2014)

Ya i like to use the blakes hitch most of the time but when i used 8.4 climbing rope the hitch was melted in half. I switched to a sterling 10 mill and i use a rappelling device now


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 1, 2014)

Do you think it varys between arborist rope and climbing rope or is it the same?


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## Matt81 (Aug 1, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Do you think it varys between arborist rope and climbing rope or is it the same?



Yes. It will still work but what type of rope as well as what the rope is made of and its core to sheath ratio, will affect how good (or bad) it grips. Different tech cords for the hitches are not identical either. Often in my experience a certain climb rope and a certain hitch cord will not work real well. You need to find a hitch cord that works reliably for the specific climb ropes you use.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 1, 2014)

What would be the best hitch for 10 mm climbing rope


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## yoyoman (Aug 1, 2014)

80% is a good place to start.


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## Overwatch (Aug 1, 2014)

Del_ said:


> Your question show you don't understand enough about rope and hitches to ask a good question on the subject.



But wait, there's more... http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/lightest-rope.254443/#post-4899982



Carter Simmons said:


> I dont use arborist rope. I use rock climbing dynamic rope and it works just as well. You should try the Sterling evolution kosmos rope. Its 10 mm i think rated 8.8 kn and dosent have much give so when i do unsecured footlocking it dosent let me bounce on the rope unless i fall.


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## yoyoman (Aug 1, 2014)

There are lots of dangers mixing rocks and trees. Probably more things not in common then in common.


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## miko0618 (Aug 1, 2014)

Are you using a friction hitch to rappel down a single line?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 1, 2014)

miko0618 said:


> Are you using a friction hitch to rappel down a single line?
> 
> Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk


 
No. I use DdRT with a blakes hitch. When i come down i use a rappelling device. The petzl verso to be specific


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## Matt81 (Aug 1, 2014)

Overwatch said:


> But wait, there's more... http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/lightest-rope.254443/#post-4899982



Is this for real? Using dynamic rock climbing lines is a bad idea. Honestly i can see no logical or sound reason why you would risk your life with such a thin low rated rope, when for similar cash you could have a real arborist climb line? 
It is clear from your post in this other thread above that you have already been using it. You clearly have no idea of the physics involved. These are not meant for tree work and do not have the required properties for safe and effective tree work. Have you ever had any credible tree climbing training? One of the first things we were told was buy the proper ropes and dont buy dynamic rock climbing ropes even if it is a great price. A rock climbing rope is basically not designed to be used in the way you are using it. When tying a blakes it is not designed to cope with the heat of being used as the rope and the friction hitch. Generally speaking the smaller the diameter the WORSE it will cope with the heat from the hitch.

8.8 KNs? Are you sane buddy? You do realise that your weight falling over 1 meter and coming to a dead stop on the rope can generate more than 10 times your weight in impact force? So the 8.8 Kns impact rating is likely gone right there.
You should not be putting your life on anything less than 23KN. Anywhere in the system. As i said have you had tree climbing training?



Carter Simmons said:


> Ya i like to use the blakes hitch most of the time but when i used 8.4 climbing rope the hitch was melted in half. I switched to a sterling 10 mill and i use a rappelling device now



*8.4? You mean an 8.4 mm rope for the life line? Yikes!  I use stuff bigger than that for my prussics and eye to eyes!  No real surprise that the hitch melted when using such a small diameter line. Honestly buddy what did you expect? I am honestly curious. You are darn lucky you were not injured. I have seen climbers take a fall from a melted hitch. If you had major dramas like this, with a thin rock climbing rope why go and buy another? Wouldn't it have made you think "maybe i should get a tree climbing rope seeing as i am tree climbing?" I will say again. The smaller the diameter generally the less well it deals with heat. Buy a proper tree climbing rope of a sensible diameter (11mm to 12.7mm) and these problems should be gone. These ropes are designed to deal better with heating as they are designed to be used with a blakes and other friction hitches. Thin dynamic rock ropes generally are not constructed the same to deal with this.*



Carter Simmons said:


> No. I use DdRT with a blakes hitch. When i come down i use a rappelling device. The petzl verso to be specific



If you are using a blakes you are using the tail of the main line to tie the hitch. Like Masterblaster's photo. You could try a taught-line but it is seriously more ancient than the blakes. You can tie a stopper knotted prussic with the tail of your line also. Honestly there are not many decent hitches that use the tail of the rope as the hitch, that work all that much better than a blakes. It is old school but it works well. If you are melting your rope at the hitch maybe go for a split tail system so you are not damaging and having to cut your climb rope shorter. Look into a basic prussic cord system or even a DMM hitch climber setup.

If the only advice you take is this i will be happy: *STOP USING CRAPPY THIN ROCK CLIMBING LINES AND BUY A REAL TREE CLIMBING ROPE!! Please go and take some tree climbing lessons.*


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 1, 2014)




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## Carter Simmons (Aug 2, 2014)

By the way. Im 14 so thats why im not so smart on this topic. I know a guy who is a pro at this and he said 10 mm climbing rope would be fine. He gave me some lessons to get into the tree. I just do this for fun. Not a job.


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## Overwatch (Aug 2, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> By the way. Im 14 so thats why im not so smart on this topic. I know a guy who is a pro at this and he said 10 mm climbing rope would be fine. He gave me some lessons to get into the tree. I just do this for fun. Not a job.



Get some real world lessons before you do any more rope climbing. This isn't the sort of thing you learn off the internut.

Do yourself a favor and forget about climbing on anything but arborist rope with a real saddle, not a rock climbing harness either. *Definitely get some training* from a competent climber who will watch you climb and give instruction- not to be a jerk but at your age I can't in good conscience recommend that you attempt to figure things out for yourself. You have a good long life ahead of you if you don't wind up dead from a fall- or worse-, crippled, comatose or drooling into a cup for the rest of your years. Is your life worth a couple hundred bucks for proper gear and instruction? Climb safe.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 2, 2014)

Overwatch said:


> Get some real world lessons before you do any more rope climbing. This isn't the sort of thing you learn off the internut.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and forget about climbing on anything but arborist rope with a real saddle, not a rock climbing harness either. *Definitely get some training* from a competent climber who will watch you climb and give instruction- not to be a jerk but at your age I can't in good conscience recommend that you attempt to figure things out for yourself. You have a good long life ahead of you if you don't wind up dead from a fall- or worse-, crippled, comatose or drooling into a cup for the rest of your years. Is your life worth a couple hundred bucks for proper gear and instruction? Climb safe.


Your right. Its just it takes me for ever and my grandparents offered to buy me rope when i was at rock creek. I just dont know how to earn momey to buy the right gear. I could buy my friends rope that is arborist rope that he has used once. the saddle os too much monesy for me though. Any ideas?


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 2, 2014)

All you need for a saddle is this. http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=10&item=922#


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## Matt81 (Aug 3, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> By the way. Im 14 so thats why im not so smart on this topic. I know a guy who is a pro at this and he said 10 mm climbing rope would be fine. He gave me some lessons to get into the tree. I just do this for fun. Not a job.



Well maybe give us the complete picture and all about your situation at the start. 20 something posts later we learn the relevant information.
Anyway, this guy who is a "pro" who you know can hopefully give you some more practical advice and lessons to help you out. It is hopefully clear from the melted hitch you experienced that really thin dynamic ropes are not so good for tree work. Yes the 10mm dynamic is kinda OK, but i would never climb on it myself. We are telling you these things for a reason.



Carter Simmons said:


> Your right. Its just it takes me for ever and my grandparents offered to buy me rope when i was at rock creek. I just dont know how to earn momey to buy the right gear. I could buy my friends rope that is arborist rope that he has used once. the saddle os too much monesy for me though. Any ideas?



Yeah i have an idea. If you cannot afford and don't have the gear you need *DON"T CLIMB UNTIL YOU DO*! You obviously don't really appreciate the danger you are putting yourself in if you continue to climb on unsuitable and inadequate equipment. I wish i was 14 again so i could not spend money on the things i bought that were not so good when i was starting out. I wish i had somewhere to go for experienced information like AS back then. Please don't disregard the sound advice we are giving you. Find a job you can do at your age and save your money to buy decent gear. Heck at 14 i was hand washing doctors cars and delivering advertising pamphlets around our town on my pushbike. If you want to work an employer will see that and hopefully give you a go.

You need a decent tree rope and tree harness and lanyard first above all else. Stop buying thin dynamic rock climbing ropes. They will glaze and melt easily compared to a real arborist rope. If you are short of money stop wasting your cash on the wrong stuff and save up and buy decent suitable gear first time round. You don't need to spend top dollar but buying something that you will have for many years is a better way to spend your money than wasting it on inncorrect and unsuitable equipment. 

I wish i had something this nice when starting out. Good decent quality climb rope at a unbeatable price. 

http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=143&item=197#detail

Nothing wrong with Chris's suggestion. Very nice harness to start out on.



KenJax Tree said:


> All you need for a saddle is this. http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=10&item=922#



You can make a basic lanyard from some short length of climb rope and a couple of carabiners and a prussic loop. Doesn't have to be expensive or fancy just reliable and functional.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 3, 2014)

If you guys are won


Matt81 said:


> Well maybe give us the complete picture and all about your situation at the start. 20 something posts later we learn the relevant information.
> Anyway, this guy who is a "pro" who you know can hopefully give you some more practical advice and lessons to help you out. It is hopefully clear from the melted hitch you experienced that really thin dynamic ropes are not so good for tree work. Yes the 10mm dynamic is kinda OK, but i would never climb on it myself. We are telling you these things for a reason.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Griff93 (Aug 3, 2014)

If you're ever down near Huntsville, AL and would like to learn some tree climbing stuff, hit me up. I'd rather take the time to show you than to hear about you falling out of a tree. It's going to take some gear money to do it safely though. If you can't do it safe, don't do it. We have several arbor plex ropes that we use running our tree service. They seem to hold up well and they are cheap enough to retire without hesitation if they get questionable. 

Griff


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 3, 2014)

Coul


Griff93 said:


> If you're ever down near Huntsville, AL and would like to learn some tree climbing stuff, hit me up. I'd rather take the time to show you than to hear about you falling out of a tree. It's going to take some gear money to do it safely though. If you can't do it safe, don't do it. We have several arbor plex ropes that we use running our tree service. They seem to hold up well and they are cheap enough to retire without hesitation if they get questionable.
> 
> Griff


Could you please send me a link for these ropes?


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## Griff93 (Aug 3, 2014)

Matt81 put a link to the rope I'm talking about in his post above mine. I'd call it good economical rope. I have some rope that's almost twice the cost and I really can't tell much difference between the two when climbing. We have one that is in use as a light rig line after being retired from climbing, that's about 5 years old.


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## Matt81 (Aug 4, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> If you guys are won



? Sorry don't know what you are saying or asking.

Won what? I haven't won anything since a raffle in the 3rd grade.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 4, 2014)

What exactly is a lanyard used for


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 5, 2014)

Do a search for the "Tree Climbers Companion", a book written by Jepsen. You can find it as a bit torrent and download it as a pdf. It will tell you answers to all these basic questions. 

Second piece of advice - send an email letter nicely worded to all the tree service companies in your area an see if there are any of their climbers who like to recreational climb and would be willing to teach you.


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## Matt81 (Aug 6, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> What exactly is a lanyard used for



You may know of it as a pole belt? It can have other names, but it attaches to the 2 side Dees of the harness and wraps around the tree to give you a second point of attachment apart from your climb line. I sometimes climb with 2 lanyards, one steel core, and one just a plain rope lanyard. The point of this is that as you are climbing and come to a branch, you can attach one lanyard above the branch and then unclip the lower one and keep climbing safely always attached.

http://www.treestuff.com/store/start.asp?category_id=19


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 6, 2014)

Matt81 said:


> You may know of it as a pole belt? It can have other names, but it attaches to the 2 side Dees of the harness and wraps around the tree to give you a second point of attachment apart from your climb line. I sometimes climb with 2 lanyards, one steel core, and one just a plain rope lanyard. The point of this is that as you are climbing and come to a branch, you can attach one lanyard above the branch and then unclip the lower one and keep climbing safely always attached.
> 
> http://www.treestuff.com/store/start.asp?category_id=19


Could you use it to hang to set a second rope?


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## Matt81 (Aug 7, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Could you use it to hang to set a second rope?



I would not recommend it with the side dees. The side dees of the harness are not designed to support your weight vertically. They will not break but it would be very uncomfortable and probably pull the waist belt up into your ribs. 
My rope lanyard has a prussik loop near one end so i can wrap the end with the rope snap around the trunk or a branch and attach the snap to this prussik and attach this to the main attachment point of the harness. Then i can unclip my main line and reposition it to a higher TIP or alternate route in the tree.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 9, 2014)

I have some good news. My cousin has some tree harnesses that he wants to give me. He says they are in mint condition and he has 3 or 4 lanyards also


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## Matt81 (Aug 10, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> I have some good news. My cousin has some tree harnesses that he wants to give me. He says they are in mint condition and he has 3 or 4 lanyards also



Sounds good. Better to have proper gear and learn the right way to use it from the start. Problems can arise from old habits.

What brands and models are the harnesses?


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't know yet but he sent me some pics and they look like body harnesses


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 10, 2014)

And he is also giving me like 20-25 lanyards and 2 rope bags


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 12, 2014)

The gear is the guardian fall protection green tux. It really sucks for tree climbing though


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 12, 2014)

And I have 9 of then


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## Matt81 (Aug 13, 2014)

Yeah full body harnesses are ok but not ideal for tree climbing. I have used a Petzl full body harness in the trees before and i found it restricted my arms a bit too much but it was ok. I do see some guys using them though. Why do you need 9 harnesses? And 25 lanyards?


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 13, 2014)

Matt81 said:


> Yeah full body harnesses are ok but not ideal for tree climbing. I have used a Petzl full body harness in the trees before and i found it restricted my arms a bit too much but it was ok. I do see some guys using them though. Why do you need 9 harnesses? And 25 lanyards?


I don't know my cousin had to get rid of some stuff so he gave it to me


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## Matt81 (Aug 14, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> I don't know my cousin had to get rid of some stuff so he gave it to me



Fair enough. At least you will have your pick of the best from the heap you have been given!


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 14, 2014)

Matt81 said:


> Fair enough. At least you will have your pick of the best from the heap you have been given!


Yeah. The harnesses retail 200 bucks retail so I could sell some and get a really good tree saddle


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## Matt81 (Aug 17, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Yeah. The harnesses retail 200 bucks retail so I could sell some and get a really good tree saddle


 
Sounds like a plan to me.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 17, 2014)

And there's another thing I'm getting. Look up the trango cinch


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## Matt81 (Aug 18, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> And there's another thing I'm getting. Look up the trango cinch



Ok. It is a rock climbing designed and inspired belay device. Who is belaying you in a tree? It might be ok as a lanyard adjuster (i think i have seen them used for this), but there are many devices that are more suited to tree work specifically. Also i think the cinch limits you to a 7/16" (11mm) max rope diameter. I prefer my gear to be able to be used on any rope size from 10.5mm - 12.7mm. Saves hassles in the future if you buy another rope. Prussik cords don't care what diameter my lines are and are cheap. 

A $10 figure 8 works just fine for descending. No need to go all out for fancy stuff. Just reliable gear that is safe and foolproof to use. Especially when you are just starting out. If you still want to spend money on a rock gym belay device go for it. Just my opinion.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 18, 2014)

I actuly found something better for rappelling that's better and cheaper. It's called the mammut smart belay device. It is auto locking but it's cheaper than a figure 8


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## CB1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> I actuly found something better for rappelling that's better and cheaper. It's called the mammut smart belay device. It is auto locking but it's cheaper than a figure 8


Zig Zag by Petzl is the best belaying, ascending, and descending device i have ever used for srt climbing or drt climbing. I keep hearing "well this is cheaper than that". why go cheap? you are putting your life and safety on the line. get what works and whats safe. There are so many options and configurations. Try going to a Climbing workshop where you can try diffrent devices and configurations to see what really works!


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## CB1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> I actuly found something better for rappelling that's better and cheaper. It's called the mammut smart belay device. It is auto locking but it's cheaper than a figure 8


But if repelling is all you are doing then a figure 8 is cheap and proven!


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 18, 2014)

Chris Bruner said:


> Zig Zag by Petzl is the best belaying, ascending, and descending device i have ever used for srt climbing or drt climbing. I keep hearing "well this is cheaper than that". why go cheap? you are putting your life and safety on the line. get what works and whats safe.



Then why are you putting your life on something that has been recalled twice due to poor engineering and build quality?


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## Matt81 (Aug 19, 2014)

Chris Bruner said:


> Zig Zag by Petzl is the best belaying, ascending, and descending device i have ever used for srt climbing or drt climbing. I keep hearing "well this is cheaper than that". why go cheap? you are putting your life and safety on the line. get what works and whats safe. There are so many options and configurations. Try going to a Climbing workshop where you can try diffrent devices and configurations to see what really works!



He is only 14 lets not forget! He has extremely limited tree climbing training. I would not go and jump if i was offered a zig zag for free even for many reasons. I am a little concerned in its durability and reliability, no matter how recalled and improved it is said to be.  Also i found it to be very very sensitive in releasing. Hair trigger sensitive. Might have been a bad combo of the zig zag and the climbing line it was demoed on, but regardless it is not what i would recommend to someone 14 with so little hands on experience.


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## CB1 (Aug 19, 2014)

did not know that he was 14 years old. in this case i would suggest some climbing training. try different configuration. since the Zig Zag was recalled the design is solid. and you have to work with it to understand that the sensitive release can be avoided. but at the age he is this is to advanced.


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## woodchuck357 (Aug 19, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> I actuly found something better for rappelling that's better and cheaper. It's called the mammut smart belay device. It is auto locking but it's cheaper than a figure 8


I don't think any device can be made for less than a fig 8. You can pay a lot of money for some brands of eights and you can find close outs and used items cheep at times.


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## woodchuck357 (Aug 19, 2014)

Chris Bruner said:


> did not know that he was 14 years old. in this case i would suggest some climbing training. try different configuration. since the Zig Zag was recalled the design is solid. and you have to work with it to understand that the sensitive release can be avoided. but at the age he is this is to advanced.


I think by "advanced" you mean prone to miss use and unreliable.


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## CB1 (Aug 19, 2014)

easy there Arkansas boy! over hear in california we climb large and tall trees on a regular basis so reliable is is everything. of course miss use = unreliable! we are talking about a 14 year old here so he has a long way to go to understanding what will work for him the best.


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## Guran (Aug 19, 2014)

> Zig Zag by Petzl is the best belaying, ascending, and descending device i have ever used for srt climbing or drt climbing.


Really? Last I checked the Zig Zag was to be used for DRT only?
A Hitch climber pulley with a VT works for me. Like the idea that you can add it midline.... Not possible with the zig..
But the Unicender looks promising. Midline attachable also.


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## CB1 (Aug 19, 2014)

I also use the Hitch Climber system. This is an awesome set up for DRT. Yes the Zig Zag is not a midline device but i have experienced the prusik not grabbing or binding to tight. It is super smooth with the Zig Zag. And when I am done i feed the rope back into the rope bag with the Zig Zag where its at on the rope. On the next use when i set my rope i never have to feed up or down more than 10 feet or Zig Zag is right there ready to go. Preference! O yea! the Zag goes up more smooth than a Hitch climber system when foot locking!


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## CB1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Full body Harnesses or shoulder attachments for your tree climbing saddle is great for when you are using a large chainsaw or heavy cabling gear to even out the load so your waist and hips are not taking the full load. But i do agree with Matt81 that it does limit mobility of the upper body and arms.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 19, 2014)

What do you use for a hitch climber setup?


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## Matt81 (Aug 20, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> What do you use for a hitch climber setup?



Its what i climb on with Ddrt. You attach your harness to the biner hanging from the pulley. I really like it. Goes really well with a foot ascender for longer climbs. For descending i simply attach a biner to my right side dee with a figure 8 and attach rope to the figure 8. Then i slowly release the hitch and descend on the 8. It all attaches easily midline and nothing has to be removed, you can leave your climb system intact. Plus the pulley has 3 attachment holes. I can attach my long rope lanyard to the middle hole (where the other leg of rope is attached) and then branch walk with control and confidence!

You don't need to use a spliced eye rope but it does make it easier. I was using a scaffold knot to terminate my rope and it was right next to and interfering with the hitch engaging and releasing. Got a petzl express sling to move the knot away from the friction hitch and problem solved! I use a distel hitch or a VT depending on climb line and hitch cord type.

TreeStuff has all the bits you need. DMM hitch climber pulley. 2x DMM oval biners (or similar ovals) eye2eye hitch cord 30" approx(ocean poly as pictured or similar)


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## Guran (Aug 20, 2014)

Matt81 said:


> Its what i climb on with Ddrt. You attach your harness to the biner hanging from the pulley. I really like it. Goes really well with a foot ascender for longer climbs. For descending i simply attach a biner to my right side dee with a figure 8 and attach rope to the figure 8. Then i slowly release the hitch and descend on the 8. It all attaches easily midline and nothing has to be removed, you can leave your climb system intact. Plus the pulley has 3 attachment holes. I can attach my long rope lanyard to the middle hole (where the other leg of rope is attached) and then branch walk with control and confidence!
> 
> You don't need to use a spliced eye rope but it does make it easier. I was using a scaffold knot to terminate my rope and it was right next to and interfering with the hitch engaging and releasing. Got a petzl express sling to move the knot away from the friction hitch and problem solved! I use a distel hitch or a VT depending on climb line and hitch cord type.
> 
> ...


 No braid on the VT? Any special reason?


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 20, 2014)

Thanks


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 20, 2014)

For the hitch climbers do you use a prusik?


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 20, 2014)

Was that your setup?


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## Matt81 (Aug 20, 2014)

Guran said:


> No braid on the VT? Any special reason?



It's not my rig, just a pic i grabbed spare of the moment from the net to illustrate the hitch climber setup. Couldn't find my pics when i needed them! 

I use a VT with braids. Or a distel depending what line and what hitch cord i am using.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 20, 2014)

I probably need actual tree climbing rope before I do the hitch climbers setup right?


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## Matt81 (Aug 20, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> For the hitch climbers do you use a prusik?



The friction hitch above the pulley for the hitch climber uses an eye to eye cord. Either sewn eyes or spliced. The pic i posted above is not my setup but shows a VT (Valdotain tresse) without braids. I climb on a VT with braids, or a distel hitch. The Michoacán or martins hitch is good also. It is basically like a closed version of the blakes hitch. Doesn't really matter what you use but it is nicer if it is a symmetrical hitch for the hitch climber system. What this means is that both "legs" of the hitch should exit on opposite sides of the climb line after the hitch is tied and dressed, so that the attachment to both sides of the pulley with the oval biner is easier. You could use a prussik hitch but there are nicer ones as mentioned that won't bite and lock so hard like a prussik knot will. Many people call any friction knot a prussik. Or they call the friction cord when tied in a loop a prussik. The prussik to me, is the knot and the cord is friction cord. Any knot used to capture ascending is a friction hitch.



Carter Simmons said:


> Was that your setup?



No it wasn't my rig. Just a pic from the net to show you what the hitch climber looks like. I couldn't find my pics, i think they are on a different portable HDD and i could not find it when i needed it.

At last found one of my pics of my gear. Old pic though as i now have a Petzl express sling instead of the doubled over singing rock one. This is a hitch climber system using a VT tied with a 30" eye to eye of 10mm ocean poly on 12mm arbormaster BRW climb line.






Carter Simmons said:


> I probably need actual tree climbing rope before I do the hitch climbers setup right?



Yes. It will work better on a tree specific climb line. Plus the rope will be better suited to abrasion in the Ddrt system, than a non tree specific rope such as dynamic rock climbing rope.

You mentioned that you will have many of these full body harnesses. Perhaps selling most of them, if you can, will enable you to get a good tree harness and a tree climb rope and a few other bits and pieces to get started with. I would recommend keeping a few of the full body harnesses as they do have their benefits, as Chris Bruner said when hauling heavier loads or a bigger saw.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 20, 2014)

Do you know anyone who's looking for a fall arrest harness in America?


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## Overwatch (Aug 20, 2014)

That sling looks like a clever solution to the termination knot fouling up the hitch.


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## CB1 (Aug 21, 2014)

I agree with Overwatch! looks like a good idea! I guess you could also use an eye to eye prusik the some way which is probably easier to get a hold of.


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## Matt81 (Aug 22, 2014)

Overwatch said:


> That sling looks like a clever solution to the termination knot fouling up the hitch.





CB1 said:


> I agree with Overwatch! looks like a good idea! I guess you could also use an eye to eye prusik the some way which is probably easier to get a hold of.



That was an old pic and just an interim solution. This below is what i climb on now. The scaffold or fisherman's knot was really affecting the hitch's ability to lock and release with any kind of reliability. A real PITA! Splicing here is just too expensive and not really an option for me. I have a good mate who does inflatable boat repairs and servicing for the Army and Navy and he is a top class splicer but he is just too busy. Arborist supply companies want something like $50+ for a single tight eye! Often they will only splice one on a brand new rope you have bought from them, which i can understand i guess.

This is the new improved system with the Petzl express sewn sling. It has a rubber end thingy at the hitch climber end to keep it all snug on the ultra o biner. Works really well. Should get one for the other end i guess. I have been trying out some Marlow viper 8mm spliced eye to eyes instead of the ocean poly 10mm or awesome Donaghys Armor-Prus i usually use. It is a very nice tech cord. Reliable grabbing and smooth predictable releasing. I have descended for short distances on the hitch as well and no glazing or fraying at all in over 3 months regular use! Nice alternative to the "usual suspects". Can be hard to impossible to find locally here or in US due to Marlow being from the UK. Ebay is your friend in this case.  I have some 9mm Sterling RIT eye to eyes to try out also. I have been using the Sterling RIT thimble prussik on my home made "Teufelberger CE lanyard" and it is a really nice cord also.


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## Matt81 (Aug 22, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Do you know anyone who's looking for a fall arrest harness in America?



Put them for sale in the trading post here an AS. I'm sure there will be some interested parties. I would be interested in one as a spare for our companies cherry picker but shipping would be crazy most likely.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 22, 2014)

Ok. The harnesses are in mint condition and I would probly sell them for about 170-180 each


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 22, 2014)

I would sell all nine for 1200


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## Griff93 (Aug 22, 2014)

It would help to know what exactly the harnesses are and what the date code on them is when you put them up for sale. 

Before you get all your gear setup, it would do you good to practice your knots. I regularly use an anchor hitch, fisherman's, bowline, water knot, blakes hitch, prusik, klemheist etc. Another good one for you to learn would be a knut. You can use it in a very similar manner to a hitch hiker as it can be tended one handed but doesn't need a DMM pulley. The cheapest way to setup one of these is to get about 54 inches of Ocean 10mm and tie a fisherman's on each end forming a loop. You'll need a climbing rope, two carabiners, and the piece of ocean hitch cord. You'll still need your harness and a lanyard. I regularly make my own lanyards from a piece of climbing rope, two snaps w/thimbles, a couple of carabiners, and two pieces of hitch cord. This basically gives me two lanyards in one but unlike two separate lanyards, I can make mine really long if I want to.


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## Overwatch (Aug 23, 2014)

Just received a Petzl express sling and first thing I saw 'Made in China' definitely took some wind out of my sail.  At least it is easy to inspect and doesn't have any moving parts...


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## Matt81 (Aug 26, 2014)

Overwatch said:


> Just received a Petzl express sling and first thing I saw 'Made in China' definitely took some wind out of my sail.  At least it is easy to inspect and doesn't have any moving parts...



Mine is definitely a "Made in France" express sling. I even went to the length of checking with the place i bought it from. Lots of made in China stuff floating around but for climbing gear its a big no way for me!


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 26, 2014)

Have you guys ever given thought to the unicender?


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## Overwatch (Aug 26, 2014)

Matt81 said:


> Mine is definitely a "Made in France" express sling. I even went to the length of checking with the place i bought it from. Lots of made in China stuff floating around but for climbing gear its a big no way for me!



Good call, if I wanted Chinese stuff I'd have gone to Harbor Fright.  Not worthy of life support.

This is somewhat disconcerting because of the possibility that some basic components (I'm thinking of webbing on saddles, for instance) might be manufactured in third world countries and shipped to Europe or the US for assembly into more complex items.

Where I bought this from is an otherwise excellent company, but there was no mention of it having been Made in China.


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## Matt81 (Aug 28, 2014)

Overwatch said:


> Good call, if I wanted Chinese stuff I'd have gone to Harbor Fright.  Not worthy of life support.
> 
> This is somewhat disconcerting because of the possibility that some basic components (I'm thinking of webbing on saddles, for instance) might be manufactured in third world countries and shipped to Europe or the US for assembly into more complex items.
> 
> Where I bought this from is an otherwise excellent company, but there was no mention of it having been Made in China.



You have hit the nail on the head in my opinion!  

I have been talking to fellow tree workers, family, friends and any one who will stand still long enough to listen about this very thing for years. Any item no matter how simple it is in construction is only as strong as it's weakest part. No point having 95% of parts of a product designed for heavy duty repetitive use when the other 5% being cheap and unreliable causes the product to break. Would you climb on a DMM hitch climber pulley every day if you knew that the pulley sides and pulley were made by DMM but the bearing for the pulley was outsourced to China? As you said a saddle. It is an integrally vital part of any climbers kit. Something like the Ergovation being able to have harness parts swapped and replaced, what if certain parts are comprised of outsourced fabrics or materials or labour such as doing vital load bearing stitching or attaching press studs? Even worse, eye to eyes used in the hitch climber setup or a lanyard adjuster. What if the sewing or splicing is outsourced to China on a brand name cord manufacturer and the end user is not told?

The Chinese are the masters at ripping off a quality product and copying it and then manufacturing the copy at a fantastic price. Differences between original and copy emerge after using! Stihl or Husky clone saws anyone? 
My beef is that the quality of the materials they use is generally rubbish. For example Australian iron ore is widely regarded as very high quality. We have been making very good steel and steel products here for many years. Now we sell all our best ore to China and then buy back steel at cheaper prices than we could make it ourselves. Problem is anyone who has come into contact with it in heavy construction will tell you it varies hugely in quality, and that the range of quality goes from complete rubbish to OK. A local rugby stadium not far from me had a new northern grandstand constructed from Chinese sourced steel and it almost completely collapsed not all that long after being constructed. One of my cousins who works in metallurgy, at the same lab my dad did until he retired recently, was one of the ones sent to assess what the heck happened. Blame was being thrown at the welders and construction company then to the engineers for under speccing the structure etc etc... Turns out that it was the quality of the steel. It was of an uneven quality inside the steel and just not very good. The welds were fine and had penetrated properly but the steel was so weak it simply ripped out around the welds. 

They might be able to copy a Petzl or Kong carabiner very well based on looks. Not so sure on the metal being used to make the darn thing however. How many of the Chinese biners do you think are stress tested to at least 50% of break load like many leading brands do to all production biners? Many times they just buy the stickers or labels or stamps needed for UIAA rating or EN or ANSI or whatever rating is needed for it to be sold in a certain country. If they don't get it they will put it on there anyway and to hell with safety. There was a big stink made a few years back with Chinese bicycle helmets being sold here that had the AS/NZS sticker showing it was safe for use as a head protection device on a bicycle. Independent testing showed it was a piece of unsafe junk. Turns out the Chinese manufacturer had simply bought the stickers and put them on the helmets without ANY testing being done on them whatsoever! 

I can unfortunately see a day when we won't even have the choice to be able to steer clear of Chinese products like we do now, and most definitely not be able to avoid some Chinese components in the products we buy. How many things do we buy now that the origin of a certain part or fabric material is not easily know to us? I hope i am not going to be right but at the very least we are aware of what is happening and not distracted.


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## Carter Simmons (Aug 31, 2014)

So what your saying is to double check to make sure it's an American product or something like that?


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## Matt81 (Aug 31, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> So what your saying is to double check to make sure it's an American product or something like that?



Double check that it is not made in China from outsourced overseas materials. Know where a product is made and where the materials came from and you will no doubt have more confidence in it's quality.
We were talking about how in a global trade and manufacturing environment that products can turn up made where you least expect and unfortunately increasingly from China. Also that it is a real concern to be sure that all the parts that make up a product are made by a reputable company and made in a country you would expect and be comfortable with.

It is becoming very hard to know 100% that the product you are buying, that is stopping you from falling out of the tree, is going to be made by the parent company and in the country you expect. A lot of manufacturing is outsourced to "third world" countries to save on production costs and labour costs. Would you be comfortable climbing on a harness (one of the examples i gave in above post) such as the ergovation if some of the parts that comprise the harness are made in China? Or even if critical load bearing stitching is outsourced to Chinese labour? What makes it even harder is if it is not made know to the buyer! I for one want my harnesses completely made in USA from USA sourced materials and labour. Or made in Europe or Australia. Same goes for ropes, biners, slings, puleys etc etc. Not china!


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 2, 2014)

Do you have any ideas what I should buy to start off with?


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## Matt81 (Sep 2, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Do you have any ideas what I should buy to start off with?



What sort of climbing are you looking to do? What style of climbing then suits what you will be doing? SRT, DRT or Ddrt? Harness choice can depend on the type of climbing as some are more suited to SRT and others more to Ddrt.
Also depends on what you have been show so far. If you are just starting out and have already been shown the basics in one style it makes sense to probably continue and develop what you have been taught so far.


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 3, 2014)

DdRT is what I have been taught in


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## Griff93 (Sep 3, 2014)

Here's something good for you to look at http://www.sherrilltree.com/Learning-Center/Knots

I'd buy a decent comfortable harness, a good economical climbing rope(arborplex), several triple action carabiners, and stuff for a lanyard of your choice. Climb on a blakes or tautline for a while then start branching out. You always want to know these anyway in case you have a gear problem and need to get down without having anything but a rope.


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 4, 2014)

Another good thing to know would to be able to descend on only a carabiner and your harness. It works just as well as a figure 8 but the carabiner heats up quickly so watch the speed you come down at


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## Griff93 (Sep 4, 2014)

With DdRT you can actually descend with no carabiner's and just a rope using a blakes. Obviously you still need to be wearing a harness. Are you using a screw gate carabiner like a figure 8?


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 4, 2014)

When I come down on just a carabiner I use a screw gate


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## Griff93 (Sep 4, 2014)

How are you using it? Munter hitch?


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 4, 2014)

I'll send a picture


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## Matt81 (Sep 4, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Another good thing to know would to be able to descend on only a carabiner and your harness. It works just as well as a figure 8 but the carabiner heats up quickly so watch the speed you come down at



Munter hitch right?


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## oldboy (Sep 5, 2014)

I use a grigri. Not the most masterful way to go about it, but it gets the job done on the diameter climbing rope I choose to use. ^^^ Yup that's a munter, looks like the beaner gate is open.


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 6, 2014)

It won't let me post a picture


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## Matt81 (Sep 6, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> It won't let me post a picture



Is the one i pictured the one you were talking about? That's a munter hitch. I posted the picture to help cus i thought you were having problems getting a pic.

To get a picture in your post, what works for me is after i have resized the picture to what i want and saved it, i select the picture file on my pc with a left click and then right click on it and select copy, then click in the post box under the text i have just written and hold the control key and hit "v" to paste the picture. For some reason it won't let me right click and hit paste in the post box as it is greyed out, but the keyboard control + V works every time.


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 6, 2014)

I'm using an iPadiPad


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 6, 2014)

Glitch


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## Carter Simmons (Sep 6, 2014)

Is the minter. Hitch for SRT?


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## Carter Simmons (Oct 13, 2014)

Does anyone know a thin rope that will work with a GriGri for tree climbing that is for sale?


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## Matt81 (Oct 14, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> Does anyone know a thin rope that will work with a GriGri for tree climbing that is for sale?



What are the recommended rope diameter specs for the particular model of GriGri you are going to be using?


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## Carter Simmons (Oct 14, 2014)

8-11 or 11.5. I'm not sure about 11.5


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## Matt81 (Oct 15, 2014)

Carter Simmons said:


> 8-11 or 11.5. I'm not sure about 11.5



I would stick with 7/16" (11mm) diameter to be 100% safe. Mechanical devices, unlike friction cord are generally very unforgiving of wrong diameter rope being run through them. 
Check out this All gear climb rope from treestuff. It's very well priced $90 for 120'. I have used an Allgear climb rope before and was very impressed with its feel, knot holding and durability. I can't remember its name though.
I currently have a 100' 5/8" 18000 lbs bull rope from Allgear and it is a very high quality rope.

https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=5&item=706#detail


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## greengreer (Oct 31, 2014)

I've been liking the michoacan for longer ascents or when i have alot of branches to pass. That being said, the blakes still gets used in certain circumstances. For instance today I only had to run up a sycamore about 20ft and had no branches to pass, the blakes with the tail of the rope was quick and easy. I would have still been setting up my slack tending biner by the time I was making my first cut. 
I think that everyone should be able to get by with just a rope and saddle JIC. 
Tried a few different hitches, really like the michoacan, very easy to tie and tends great with zero set back. 
I love to learn new knots but find myself using only a few for most of my climbing and rigging. KISS


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