# vt hitch setup



## 1I'dJak (Jun 28, 2008)

thinking of switching over to the vt hitch...some of the guys at work are on about them....I'm wondering about which combinations of rope and prussic cord are the best....I want a secure hitch...had a situation where i slid down my climbing line about 60' till my blakes hit my stopper knot....hated that feeling...i was using a blaze and it was raining out at the time...fellas say use the vt hitch for superior performance...beeline and velocity work well?


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## D Mc (Jun 28, 2008)

1I'd, My current set up with the VT is Velocity and an Ice eye-to-eye tail used in combination with the hitch climber. This is a real nice setup. 

Be aware that it takes some getting used to using the VT, but is worth the effort. Unless you use an extension bridge so you can get both hands below the knot you will probably wind up pulling yourself up above the knot and taking up slack when you hit the first branch. I see a lot of guys do this. I don't. 

The VT really does require a tending pulley to get the most out of it. I'm no light weight and I use a 2 wrap, 3 braid. It is very reliable but still not binding. 

Dave


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## PTS (Jun 28, 2008)

I use a vt with beeline and my climb lines vary....hyvee, spark, fire, phoenix,....haven't really had trouble with any of them.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jun 29, 2008)

Thinking of trying the VT. I am going to get Velocity but not sure what to use for the Prussic with this combination. Any suggestions, Ice, Beeline, etc.?Been on the Blake's for years. Is it more self-tending than the Blakes?


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## clearance (Jun 29, 2008)

Does not the Tree Climbers Companion by Jepson caution about the VT? Saying it can fail with fatal consequence if not tied properly? 

I don't have that book at hand but many here do, someone look it up and quote what is said please. 

Jak, it can be a long way down, I know.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 29, 2008)

"the french prusik is an unforgiving knot that has shortcomings with potentially fatal consequences. the primary shortcoming is that it sometimes fails to grab the rope if not tied exactly right. this typically occurs when not enough wraps and braids are taken with the cord. the length, diameter, and pliability of the cord also strongly influence how the hitch will perform. as with all knots, the french prusik must not be integrated into a climbing system until the climber has mastered tying and operating it while on the ground"


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## clearance (Jun 29, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> "the french prusik is an unforgiving knot that has shortcomings with potentially fatal consequences. the primary shortcoming is that it sometimes fails to grab the rope if not tied exactly right. this typically occurs when not enough wraps and braids are taken with the cord. the length, diameter, and pliability of the cord also strongly influence how the hitch will perform. as with all knots, the french prusik must not be integrated into a climbing system until the climber has mastered tying and operating it while on the ground"



Thank you ClimbinArbor.

So Jak, windfirming is a pretty demanding job, as you know I have done it. I fell, well not really fell but came down really fast when my tautline slipped on that red Yale rope, that is pretty hard. The I used the Blakes, but was not shown how to tie it properly and came down real fast again. It was a Blakes on a split tail. After I was shown how to tie it it caused me no problems. In my opinion the Blake with the split tail is the best setup for windfiming.

Now I no longer windfirm and use different and softer ropes so I went back to the good old tautline.



Maybe you could use a softer rope for your split tail, I would use the Blakes still and try to make it work better for you.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 29, 2008)

i think our lingo has a state line through it.... windcutting here is using a strong gust to send a limb where you want it..... what is windfirming exactly? is it rappelling?


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 29, 2008)

clearance said:


> Thank you ClimbinArbor.




very welcome one and all. although im not much of a secratary i must say. that took me a minute lol


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## clearance (Jun 29, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> i think our lingo has a state line through it.... windcutting here is using a strong gust to send a limb where you want it..... what is windfirming exactly? is it rappelling?



Windfirming is cutting off branches and often the tops in conifers beside a logging show so that they do not blow down. Reducing the wind sail. Mostly beside creeks and other water.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 29, 2008)

ahhhhhhhh gotcha


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## clearance (Jun 29, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> ahhhhhhhh gotcha



Jak windfirms, but he also does standing stem logging, that when climbers strip the tree and blow off a big top at a calculated height. Two terms that come from the mighty westcoast.


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## D Mc (Jun 29, 2008)

Jack, Clearance brings up some really good points. You say your mates are using the VT and like it. Are they in your work crew with the same kind of climbing? What is your typical climbing scenario?

One of the primary reasons for using the VT is its light, adjustability for constant length change in your climbing system. If that is not necessary in your typical day, there might be a better set up.

I really think the VT has gotten a bad rap (oops I guess that was a pun) from climbers trying to tie it too short. It is pretty supple and grippy when tied with the proper amount of braids. Whatever knot you use must be tied right and the set checked constantly, especially in varying conditions.

Dave


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 29, 2008)

clearance said:


> Jak windfirms, but he also does standing stem logging, that when climbers strip the tree and blow off a big top at a calculated height. Two terms that come from the mighty westcoast.



okay so its just blowing a top off lol. 



D Mc said:


> Jack, Clearance brings up some really good points. You say your mates are using the VT and like it. Are they in your work crew with the same kind of climbing? What is your typical climbing scenario?
> 
> One of the primary reasons for using the VT is its light, adjustability for constant length change in your climbing system. If that is not necessary in your typical day, there might be a better set up.
> 
> ...


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## treemandan (Jun 29, 2008)

1I'dJak said:


> thinking of switching over to the vt hitch...some of the guys at work are on about them....I'm wondering about which combinations of rope and prussic cord are the best....I want a secure hitch...had a situation where i slid down my climbing line about 60' till my blakes hit my stopper knot....hated that feeling...i was using a blaze and it was raining out at the time...fellas say use the vt hitch for superior performance...beeline and velocity work well?



Yeah , well, whatever you use you have to mind it. Furthest I ever slipped was a few feet. 60 and I might say" I am doing something wrong." Which leads me to this:
HOLY F-ING CRAP DUDE! You OK? 60 feet ? That has to be a record. God willing you are amongst the living and still able to eat solid foods. Good thing the rope was the right length to keep the stopper off the ground. what are the chances?
Anyway you might want to try some bee's wax as routine maintenence on the ends of the rope you tie your friction hitch, whatever it is. I guess it helps with surf boards too, it makes things stick.
VT is very nice but I tend to stick with the taughtline, I just take my time with it and know if I ever start to slip all you have to do is reach for the stopper knot end of the hitch and give it a tug, you will stop.


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## PTS (Jun 30, 2008)

clearance said:


> Does not the Tree Climbers Companion by Jepson caution about the VT? Saying it can fail with fatal consequence if not tied properly?
> 
> I don't have that book at hand but many here do, someone look it up and quote what is said please.
> 
> Jak, it can be a long way down, I know.



I think it is safe to assume that any knot can fail if not tied properly!


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## tree MDS (Jun 30, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yeah , well, whatever you use you have to mind it. Furthest I ever slipped was a few feet. 60 and I might say" I am doing something wrong." Which leads me to this:
> HOLY F-ING CRAP DUDE! You OK? 60 feet ? That has to be a record. God willing you are amongst the living and still able to eat solid foods. Good thing the rope was the right length to keep the stopper off the ground. what are the chances?
> Anyway you might want to try some bee's wax as routine maintenence on the ends of the rope you tie your friction hitch, whatever it is. I guess it helps with surf boards too, it makes things stick.
> VT is very nice but I tend to stick with the taughtline, I just take my time with it and know if I ever start to slip all you have to do is reach for the stopper knot end of the hitch and give it a tug, you will stop.



Good post dan.


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## rbtree (Jun 30, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> "the french prusik is an unforgiving knot that has shortcomings with potentially fatal consequences. the primary shortcoming is that it sometimes fails to grab the rope if not tied exactly right. this typically occurs when not enough wraps and braids are taken with the cord. the length, diameter, and pliability of the cord also strongly influence how the hitch will perform. as with all knots, the french prusik must not be integrated into a climbing system until the climber has mastered tying and operating it while on the ground"



Yes, that is true. However, it is the knot of choice for myself and many associates and friending, including many who I've converted over. I've never had a problem with mine, as I'm aware of the need to check it when loading it after its slack, as when climbing up. Make sure it's properly extended isn't hard. Visually checking any friction hitch and gear should be constantly empoyed.


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## 1I'dJak (Jun 30, 2008)

thanks for the replies...typical climbing scenario windfirming involves mainly rappelling on your climbing line....climbing involves just spurs and two scare straps... however when rapelling we swing from one tree to another using a grapple,asceneder and 8 mil line (in conjuction with our rappelling line of course)...the angle of swing varies.... sometimes you can pull the grapple line really tight which can relax the friction hitch a bit on your rappelling line... this is the situation i was in when i slipped down my climb line (foreman measure the fall at 55')...a weld on my grapple broke and came free...causing my to swing back down on my climb line...however the hitch didn't catch (it was wet out as well)...basically I want a hitch setup that responds well...grabability...if that is a word...so far i've used taughtline and blakes...


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## Dadatwins (Jun 30, 2008)

I grew up on a tautline and used it for years before finding out about the more advanced knots and hitches. I tried a VT but could not get the wraps correct so now I use a distel with bee line. I feel very comfortable on it. It does take getting use to the different feel of having the hitch close to you as opposed to having the tautline at arms length. With the tautline you grip below the hitch and the distel you grap above it. The other fear to overcome is the narrow profile of the bee-line, it looks like such a small line but it tensile is higher than most 1/2" lines. As the others have said, ANY hitch tied incorrectly can be potentially bad. Be careful.


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## alloutdoorsboy (Jun 30, 2008)

I switched from taughtline to Martin and now use the icicle which seems to grab way better than the martin fwiw


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## clearance (Jun 30, 2008)

PTS said:


> I think it is safe to assume that any knot can fail if not tied properly!



Very true, but a tautline is easy to tie, simple as it gets. 
Windfirming and standing stem are not like res. work, it can be pretty crazy. Ain't no hospital just down the street, its a production show, nothing pretty or fancy here. I have climbed to 180', others have climbed higher, for example. I advise keeping it simple.
In the Tree Climbers Companion, the VT is the only one that has the explicit warning.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 30, 2008)

actually the warning pertains to all tresses


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 30, 2008)

i have been using a figure eight on a bight lately as my climbing line termination to my biner. works pretty well and is ultra safe and holding from what i can tell. 

anyone else have ezperiences good or bad using this?


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## treemandan (Jun 30, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Before we get to carried away blaming the Vt, let's remember that it's not the Vt that failed in this case.
> 
> What failed was one of the hitches that attaches the Vt to the biner, a scaffold hitch.(sometimes called a double fisherman's knot in error) This same hitch was also likely used to attached the end of the climbing line to a biner for attachment to the saddle. If the scaffold hitch on the end of the rope had come undone there is not much of a chance that JPS would have caught it.



Not sure I follow. My little VT thingy has two eyes spliced in the ends and that goes to the biner so there is no scaffold knot which by the way Des Pawson calls it a double fisherman's knot.
I also have a split tail which does get more use that the VT rope thingy with 2 eyes on the ends but all in all I just go up and start tying the old taughtline/prussick deal til I am done.
I know a 270 pound godzilla who climbs on a three wrap susy suicide prussick with NO stopper knot!
what they need to make for the VT type set ups is a pulley that redirect the tail of the climb line so you just pull towards you instead of away but I think we should stop there and just get the F up the tree for now.


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## senechal (Jun 30, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> i have been using a figure eight on a bight lately as my climbing line termination to my biner. works pretty well and is ultra safe and holding from what i can tell.
> 
> anyone else have ezperiences good or bad using this?



I know a few guys that swear by it. I find the interface on biners to be lousy as you end up side loading with very little effort. I also find it to be bulky for what I need and is a magnet for snagging your tail.


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## treemandan (Jun 30, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> i have been using a figure eight on a bight lately as my climbing line termination to my biner. works pretty well and is ultra safe and holding from what i can tell.
> 
> anyone else have ezperiences good or bad using this?



That is usually what i use when needed.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 30, 2008)

senechal said:


> I know a few guys that swear by it. I find the interface on biners to be lousy as you end up side loading with very little effort. I also find it to be bulky for what I need and is a magnet for snagging your tail.



ive been giving mine a 6" loop, so as not to get the bulk of the knot interfering with all my hardware.


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## reachtreeservi (Jun 30, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> i have been using a figure eight on a bight lately as my climbing line termination to my biner. works pretty well and is ultra safe and holding from what i can tell.
> 
> anyone else have ezperiences good or bad using this?



I use the same figure eight on a bight or a rewoven figure eight.
Easy to tie and check.
Super safe...


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 1, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> If the scaffold hitch on the end of the rope had come undone there is not much of a chance that JPS would have caught it.



Actually Dan, that is what happened. The fisherman's came undone from the pulley beckett. (see I&F forum for full details)

My fingers on the barrel of the hitch is what kept it "working".


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## RedlineIt (Jul 1, 2008)

1I'dJak,

Jeez, it's been ages since I logged on here. I know that I had PM'd you that I could fire some spliced Bee-line up your way because my employer basically just gives that stuff away to climbers, by my circumstances have changed.

Also want to say that D Mc made a most intelligent post which I agree with.

The VT is at it's best on a long limb-walk, getting out on the tips and then playing yourself back in all smooth.

The VT can actually be annoying on a big straight up Conifer climb, because at about 40 to 50 feet, unloaded, it self tails down to nothing.

I'll try to put this is realistic terms:

You climb to fifty feet on your VT. Lanyard in above, release VT. VT self tails due to rope weight. Climb up a bit on your lanyard. Pull rope out of your VT. Flip it. Missed? VT self tends. Pull rope out of VT. Flip it again. Successful? Climb up, Lanyard in. Release VT, grab it before it self tends.

See what I mean about annoying?

Don't get me wrong, the VT, Knute, Icicle, all the Prussic variants have their uses and if you ever find yourself doing residential pruning where hitting the outside third of the tree is the whole game, or even removals where getting out and tying a control line is required, you will find the VT a dream.

But if our roles were reversed, and I were climbing big conifers, I'd be back on the Blakes ASAP.

Or I would use my double-ended lanyard to my TIP.

Horses for courses.


RedlineIt


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 1, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I was talking about the climbing rope attachment. The one without the hitch. What knot do you use there?



Fisherman's-2 turn overhand - scaffold - noose....


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## ClimbinArbor (Jul 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Actually Dan, that is what happened. The fisherman's came undone from the pulley beckett. (see I&F forum for full details)
> 
> My fingers on the barrel of the hitch is what kept it "working".



wait a second. i thought you werent supposed to tie anything to a pulley becket for just that reason.......


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 2, 2008)

I never heard that, the Petzl Fixe' is used in a tress hitch as the terminal connection.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jul 2, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I never heard that, the Petzl Fixe' is used in a tress hitch as the terminal connection.



huh wierd. i use one single biner and a micro pulley for mine. load one eye of the vt, then the pulley, then your other eye. 

of course i run mine on a 4d, that may be the difference.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 2, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> huh wierd. i use one single biner and a micro pulley for mine. load one eye of the vt, then the pulley, then your other eye.
> 
> of course i run mine on a 4d, that may be the difference.



I cannot find a pic of the vt on the fixe, but you can see how it would work, tie to the beckett, then the pulley goes onto the carabiner where the other end of the tress cord is tied off.


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