# wounded groundie



## coydog (Sep 11, 2002)

been training a groundie for a month or so, always close supervision when using the saw, today was the first day i let him cut on his own. 10 min later he kills the saw walks over to me and says he cut himself. got real lucky,just a flesh wound ,six stitches, no tendons etc.


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## Kevin (Sep 11, 2002)

Where did he cut himself and how?


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## Reed (Sep 11, 2002)

Spooky, wasn't it?

Ya know what though? For many people it takes a little jolt of reality to countersink a point home. Believe me, you should celebrate because it was relatively minor, it could've been worse. Things like this make us better or we're in the wrong business. If he remains a helper for you, you're gonna have to invest a little observation time for a bit, see if it will happen again or that he learned from it successfully.


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## coydog (Sep 12, 2002)

Doing some storm work, I have about 15 trees to fell and cut up, I had him cut all the bushy stuff that wasn't under tension while I was working about 20 feet away on another tree. He cut through a branch and lost his balance and brought the saw down on his inside ankle missed his achilles by about a centimeter.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 12, 2002)

That's how we weed out the bad groundmen, give 'em a saw and no training, and send them out cutting. If they come back unhurt, they are hired. If they get cut, we just push them through the chipper.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 12, 2002)

Comon Mike, he said he was traning him for 4 weeks! What do you do, make them drag for a year before touching a saw?

I had a very similar situation as Coy, went off to talk with somone else and the guy over reached. Thank got for syntrifical clutches. The brake engaged and the sharp teeth cut into the side of his knee.

That was not far from you Mike, out on Abitzs Rd. 'tween Cushing and Waterville Rd.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 12, 2002)

I worked on abitz a few times over the years.

So did you put him through the chipper?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 12, 2002)

I did think of making him walk home  

I'm glad we had a pickup out with us on that job. I was able to let him go to the clinic for stitches by his lonesome.


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## gene martin (Sep 12, 2002)

*CUT*

Made me laugh, cuz i dont think there are any tree service related individuals out thtere that have been around it "awhile", that dont have a nick or two! cracked 020t handle left 4 good cuts on finger, and 044 gave me lil scar on left knee. Kinda like that climber that calls for a job and they always say " I have never hit anything or crushed anything"! Either they are new to the field or real lucky,, fences always seem to move!


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## Jumper (Sep 12, 2002)

I am curious-did this guy have on chainsaw pants and\or a good pair of leather boots? I have a pair of the former that protect the bottom of my legs right to my feet, thus the likelihood of getting injured in this manner is reduced, though given Murphy, not totally eliminated. Like a post above, i think everyone here will get cut one day.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 12, 2002)

If you ain't bleedin, you aint workin!!!


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## Nickrosis (Sep 12, 2002)

Good to see you again, Jumper!


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## FSburt (Sep 13, 2002)

where's the chaps. I have been training new sawyers to precommercial thin plantations and have yet to make it through the first week without sombody nicking their chaps. Most are during idle down with the chain still spinning and trying to walk and pull leg into chain. I 've only seen one that saw was running at agood clip when it bit him but he was thankful for kevlar because he did not even relize what had happened until his saw died and he looked down the see all the yellow fibers clogging the chain and clutch. $100 for chaps is a good investment. I'm sure there are some guys out there with some scars on the knees and legs to second that opinion. Take care and watch the demon it has no conscience and will cut whateveer is put in front of it.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 13, 2002)

Agreed. I've heard of a pair of chaps taking a Husky at full bore while they were laid across a log. The professor smashed the bar down - nothing touched the log. I would consider them a worthwhile investment.

Nickrosis


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## coydog (Sep 13, 2002)

no chaps, I think that I'll get some now. Seen several knicks and cuts before, but they always seem to happen to more experienced sawyers that get careless, In all honesty, I've never used or worked on a crew that used chaps. not to say thats a reason for not using them I guess it's just easy to get tunnel vision when you grow up using a saw, anyway, I have a hell of a time finding and keeping good groundies, the last one just couldn't seem to "get it" that it wasn't a good idea to stand on or in front of the rope during rigging operations, and its always a good feeling when you look down and theyv'e got the rope wrapped around their wrist for extra holding power. I haven't had one learn a bowline yet. I just had an idea while writing this thread, because I was going to ask for opinions on training new groundies, maybe if being able to tie a bowline was a prerequisite to using a saw it woulsd at least insure they were paying attention, maybe I should start them at a lower wage with the incentive for a raise after learning to perform certain skills? right now I pay my groundies 10 an hour.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 13, 2002)

Chain brake, well used and alert can take you far!

If ya ain't paying the BeaST (Blood, Sweat and Tears), ya ain't werking hard enough!


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## Nickrosis (Sep 13, 2002)

Try starting them at $9/hour. After 30 days, go over a checklist of things they were expected to learn: chipper safety and operation, proper use of PPE, how to tie 3 knots, 4 forces of a chainsaw bar, etc. If they pass, throw them the buck you were going to give them anyways.

To facilitate this, I highly recommend getting the Tailgate Safety manual from the NAA. We recently revised our employee manual and employee handbook. By having the TS program, we were able to cross-reference information, saying read pages blank to blank for more information.

Nickrosis


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## geofore (Sep 13, 2002)

*groundies*

What,your saws don't idle with the chain break on??? Time for new toys for the guys I'd say. Husky pants work but so should your new saw idle with the break on. Aside from the $100 pants I'd look for saws that idle with the break on. If you withhold the $ an hour till the ground guy is trained, he has earned enough for you to give him a saw that idles with the break on and the new pants. He will think of it as a bonus for good preformance and you will have guys that preform good. X weeks for the pants and Y weeks more for the saw that idles with the break on,then bring them up to scale and tell them they are responsible, to get their own from now on .


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 13, 2002)

Ya learn the bo'lin .15/hour raise
Clove .10/hour
.
.
.
.

I see ya put the chain break on the saw every time it is cutting, +.10/hour

I work with different people so often that I have this mantra the first few times. 

"put on some gloves, and hold the end of the rope over by that tree. 
Dont take any wraps in your hands or arms. 
Ensure that you are not standing on the rope. 
When i cut the limb, let the load fall a little before you stop it...."

Been told i sound like a flight atendant.  

Sorta the same with a saw, " break is on at all times that the saw is not actualy cutting. Use two hands at all time, no mater what you see me do


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 13, 2002)

Very good JP!

i think that chain brake and not turning at idle are 2 diffrent safety factors.

Every once in a while someone comes up with a real good saw etc......... OOOOOps, no chain brake ? Can't touch it! Give'em the speach and i'm off the hook! Who says safety equipment always gets in the way?, make it work for you!

Any way i wouldn't use saw wtihout one anyway, and enact the chain break constantly. Even if i one hand saw in tree, i will bump chain break after cut, saw off or not. Sometimes bumping it on one hand reach to target in the reverse fashion.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 13, 2002)

THe saw won't idle because of a broken 59 cent clutch spring.
No wonder the insurance companies take all our money, we are idiots!


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## geofore (Sep 13, 2002)

*standing on rope*

JPS,
Standing on the rope: Had a guy do that after I had explained to the ground crew to let go of the rope as soon as the limb swings clear of the building and everyone let go and he went flying A$$ over tincups. Pride was hurt but he was okay.


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## treeclimber165 (Sep 13, 2002)

My standard instruction for groundies on the rope is : You can wrap that rope around any part of your body that you are willing to lose!


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## Kevin (Sep 13, 2002)

It`s not just the fact that the bar can easily hit your leg in an accident but also the fact that if the chain breaks it`s coming off the bar and can easily whip your legs.


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## coydog (Sep 13, 2002)

my chainbreaks are all in working order, he lost his balance as he finished a cut and swung the saw into his ankle while his finger was still on the trigger. I'm buyin some chaps on monday and subbing out a pro to help me finish this job tomorrow.


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## geofore (Sep 14, 2002)

*wounded*

Ooch! That had to hurt, did it take his boot apart also? Thanks for the correction. My thought was he slipped while running the saw and walking.


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## Marky Mark (Sep 15, 2002)

*Training*

Now I don't train people in the tree buiss but I do alot of training in the computer field. I think the first thing is that you have to ask your self is why this guy got hurt. Did you explain to him the way you want things done while showing him, then him explaining to you how you want it done while he walks you thru it. 

Why No chaps?? is another question you will have to ask yourself could this have been prevented if he had them on. I know they are cumbersome and akward at first but it is cheap insurance.

When you are interviewing these people are you being selective in your chioce or first guy gets the job he's just on the ground. You might need to look at how you are speaking to these people are you getting your piont across or just hot air. Most people are looking for a job today and the next guy to offer them another dollar an hour there gone.

what works at my shop is hiring someone and after say six months start giving them insentives ie: your out on the job and yousell a computer $50 bonus, just things to keep them happy and working. 

We have one guy who had no exsprience who gave up a career to get into computers I just kept blowing him off til he said look I will be there monday morning and work for free after 2 weeks lets talk. Sure enough monday morning he was there, we took bets how long he would last. the youngest guy in the shop gave him a hard time for a while, now 3 years later he's the best in the shop and on the road he's paid 59 an hour from working for 6 bucks an hour. As it turned out later he told us he was working as a insurance brooker pulling down 150grand a year.

Piont is people are out there and they want to work it's you job to figure out how to find them and keep them, hiring someone green might not always be the best for you and them at first but you can find your tree soulmate. they are out there.


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## xander9727 (Sep 15, 2002)

I had a groundie that tried to argue with me about wearing chaps on the job. I have a strict rule that if you pick up a chainsaw you MUST be wearing chaps. His rationale was that he had used a chainsaw for years and had never cut himself. Two days later he buried an 036 pro in the chaps. I didn't rub it in his face but he did use the excuse that the 036 is alot different than the 16 inch Craftsman he had at home. After he cut through a bull rope while bucking I afforded him the oportunity to find employment else where. It takes alot of time and effort to find, hire, train and keep good help. If they're injured they can't make you any money. I have found that investing $100-$150 per man in PPE is money well spent. I still can't understand why men in one of the most dangerous professions would chose not to use available safety equipment. I constantly have to remind employees to wear eye and ear protection, gloves, helmets, etc. I guess it's easy to be hard, but hard to be smart.


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## kf_tree (Sep 15, 2002)

mark
thats an interesting story. i once had a guy calling me for a job that worked for a hack and slash company. i just kept blowing him off. finally he called and said he would work for a day free and if i wasn't happy with him he would walk away. he ended up turning into my right hand man. he has keys to my house to check on my dogs when i went away. he had kind of a checked past but he had a kid on the way and was getting his act together. when i sold my business i put toget an old morbark 290 for him at a fair price and now he has his own small business. if he keeps his over head down he'll do alright. it hard to tell how guys will work out. but i can't even count how many so called "tree men" didn't last a week with me.


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## Jumper (Sep 16, 2002)

*PPE and the new groundie*

Some interesting comments here.......

In retrospect I think one of the reasons I got my first job in this business was because I already owned all my own PPE and thus appeared a little professional, or perhaps prepared is a better way of putting it. I have owned and used a chainsaw for years, and always have had(and used) the equipment to go with it. 

Labour laws here are really strict, but like anywhere are liable to be ignored by newbie and pro alike. My second boss was like that-no helmet, eye, ear or leg protection at all because he "did not believe in it". Mind you this fool spiked everything as well so go figure.

I look at training new people along the lines of training a soldier-start off on the right foot with the ground rules, provide him with the equipment to do the job and add your skill and you have all the ingredients. On the other hand, if you look and behave like a bag of sh*t, ignore every rule in the book and are not skilled and up to date on new procedures, guess what you are going to get for a worker- a mirror image. 

It is not cheap to outfit a groundie with the necessary PPE-here a minimum of $300 ($100 boots, $100 chaps or pants, $60 helmet muff visor combo, gloves, safety glasses etc) and a lot of people earning $10 per hour just do not have the $$$$$ to put together the legally required equipment. And in fact employers here are required to provide it but few do, and fewer get nabbed for not doing so after a major injury.

My two cents worth..


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## Jumper (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: Training*



> _. Most people are looking for a job today and the next guy to offer them another dollar an hour there gone.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> And some here wonder why they cannot attract and hold on to people at $10 (or less) an hour. I think it is the nature of the beast at the lower rates per hour. Regretably you do not attract the cream of the crop at less than $10 per here; in fact most will not work for that rate even though the minimum per hour is $6.75._


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## Reed (Sep 18, 2002)

Well, we could do like that company up in Maine did and hire a van load of Guatamalans to work for substandard rates. Just make sure the driver knows when to turn and brake and stuff. I reacon that because all 14 aboard the van that sank were questionably legal residents (re: foreign exchange students), there's not a lot of compensation or anything to pay out.


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## Jumper (Sep 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Training*



> _Originally posted by Jumper _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Reed (Sep 18, 2002)

Ya got that right Jumper!


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## Jumper (Sep 18, 2002)

*Not Dung but Gung*



> _Originally posted by oakwilt _
> *Ya got that right Jumper! *



I speak from personal experiences!


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## mowdenver (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *That's how we weed out the bad groundmen, give 'em a saw and no training, and send them out cutting. If they come back unhurt, they are hired. If they get cut, we just push them through the chipper.  *


Sounds like how the old man taught us on saws in the 60's.
6 yrs old you get a gun
8 years old and its time to run the ole 25lb craftsman. 
I did ok but my brothers- lefty, pirate, and hop-a-long have some different thoughts on that system


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