# OWB v. Wood Stove



## Spotted Owl (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok I have been around here for awhile now and I don't get it. If someone can find it on search I will read it there, but I haven't found it yet.

What are the pro's and con's on OWBs v Wood Stoves or vise versa. The mess of a stove in the house doesn't hold water. If you are comfortable with the mess it will be there stove or not. We have two stoves and there is no mess.

For me personally at this time I will stay with a stove. I have neighbors that hate yes hate their OWB for various reason. They are returning to stoves.

No ruffling of feathers, no bickering. I'm just curious. 

If you can shed some light on this fantastic and Thanks. If not stay back.



Owl


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## flotek (Oct 20, 2009)

well you can heat more area and have way more options with water than a wood stove offers but the downfalls are three times the wood use and peeving off the neighbors with smoke


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## Burntime (Oct 20, 2009)

I have an insert so plusses are heat in that room. Have a cooler bedroom to retreat to. Minuses are too much heat in 1 room. Wood in the house. Ash dust in the house. Dry house. Possible allergies...flip em around for the owb... For me I would have wasted a lot of capacity for an owb and ended up burning more wood... plus I like to see the fire...


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## stint (Oct 20, 2009)

*OK Here's starters*

OWB: vs Traditional Indoor 

Advantages:
Less work: fewer loadings with bigger wood, easier ash cleaning
Can burn less/un seasoned wood 
Heats all rooms of house evenly using existing baseboards (and zones)

Disadvantages
Much higher initial cost
Smokes up neighborhood like boy scout camp-out (newer gasifications less)
Some localities have very restrictive even exclusionary ordinances

I'm sure others will expand. 
Personally, I'm sticking with 2 indoor Jotuls that have served well for past decade


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## Alan Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

*owb*

i like my cb5036 i dont think it smoke as bad you .all say as of now it uses less wood than my insert did i all so heat 2 water heaters with it.


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## atlarge54 (Oct 20, 2009)

I've had several different woodburners in the past 30 years and when I bring in wood and take out ashes there's always some kind of mess to deal with. 
I currently have an el-cheapo, quasi-homemade OWB and the mess is outdoors. An OWB will almost always consume more wood and they're definately not for everybody. One big advantage is you can burn wood that others wouldn't mess with. Not getting up in the middle of the night to feed is a pretty big plus also.


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## ohioburner (Oct 20, 2009)

This is my first year heating with a heatmor OWB and last week when I fired it up was when it smoked otherwise there is very little smoke. I am burning seasoned wood so I would say smoke isn't an issue with me. The up front cost is a big downfall but It should pay for itself after a few years.


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## miller1 (Oct 20, 2009)

flotek said:


> well you can heat more area and have way more options with water than a wood stove offers but the downfalls are three times the wood use and peeving off the neighbors with smoke




I dont know why everybody thinks OWBs use a truckload a day and think they smoke so much, i heat a 1500 sq ft house and my water with about 10 pickup truckloads a year. Yes when it kicks on you get a puff of smoke for a few minutes but after that there is no more smoke than my neighbor has coming out of his chimny. I personally dont think i could heat my house with any less wood with a indoor unit. I burn seasoned hardwood and dont use any LP at all anymore to heat with. How many truckloads do most guys go thru a winter with there OWBs?


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## czar800 (Oct 20, 2009)

.


My 6048 smokes very little and I to have burned less wood then my add on did. 

1.You would save a ton of time cutting and splitting wood, if it will fit in the door it will burn.

2. you will have more even and easier to control heat, no more open the windows to cool off the house. ( set the temp and that's it!!)

3. NO MORE FIRE INSIDE YOUR HOUSE!!

4. No more chimney cleaning 

5. No more Dirt, Ash's and time loss carrying wood into you home.

6. heat your hot water.

that is only six and there's a lot more.




.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 20, 2009)

I'll list some advantages of an OWB. I'll include what others have and expand a few.

1...Ashes and ash dust are outside

2...wood chips, sawdust, bark are outside

3...No need to split into small pieces

4...insects outside (you can burn the infested stuff others are afraid to bring in their home)

5...you can burn green or wood that isn't quite seasoned yet.

6...no fire hazard inside your home

7...no smoke inside your home

8...abiltity to heat your domestic hot water and shut off the electric or gas to it. this saves me $$$

9...the ability to heat more than one building (house and garage, two homes, home and work shop, etc...)

10...usually fill twice a day.

11...no chimney fire to worry about. just let the creosote burn out of the chimney and watch the fireworks

12...the temp in the house can be controled with the thermostat to adjust to your liking.

13...air is not as dry in house

14...everything is pretty much automatic. no need to constantly play with draft or damper.

15...did i mention you never run out of hot water?

16... Many ways to heat home, I have half my home with radiant floor heat and the other half forced air

17... People give you wood that they won't burn indoors. especially pine. I get lots of free pine. i had a buch of wood given to me that was infested with termites. People give me rotted stuff too. It all burns in the OWB


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## wampum (Oct 20, 2009)

The OWB have some great features,like using bigger logs,less splitting,and dirtier and greener wood. They also hold a fire for long periods,and all of the mess(if any) is outside. They are also safer,because of no risk of setting your house chimney on fire. The draw backs are,the low chimney which puts out smoke lower to the ground,which like some have said, up sets your neighbors,if they are close. Most feel they burn more wood,which makes sense,because of the larger fire box. Three more cons are the initial cost,life span,and if you loose electric(unless you have a back up) you are out of business. Indoor stoves,cons are chimney fires(use dry wood)loading,and cleaning inside,which does make some mess,heating zones,like the room it is in is hotter then a room 15 feet away.OWB do keep a fire for a long period,mainly because you can put more wood in it,but some of the better indoor stoves,easily keep a fire in all night. The pros are,if you lose electricity,that, does not keep it from heating your home. I have cooked an 18 pound turkey on mine,it was very good. Also we keep a kettle of water on top,this dampens a room,giving warmer heat,and gives you a cup of tea when you want it. Looking at that fire on a cold winter night is great,all my friends that come over,get their cold rears pretty close to the stove,to get instant heat. Under normal conditions,an OWB is hard to beat. Under extreme conditions,like a bad ice storm,with out electric for hours or days,the indoor stove,is even harder to beat.


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## Scootermsp (Oct 20, 2009)

*Indoor Air Quality*

I heat 4500 sq/ft and DHW with about 14 cords a year (CB 5036). I (and the missus) prefer the ash, dust, wood, and smoke remain outdoors. One of my relatives has a serious smoke allergy and could not come into the house if I had an indoor stove. I do not mind at all going outside to feed the "dog". The major benefit here is heating of domestic Hot Water, payback time is drastically reduced by taking advantage of this. To each his own though, I have friends with stoves and inserts that really like them. I like the fact that there is no chance of CO poisoning with ALL burning done remotely outside. I ran mine from September 2008 to Mid-July 2009 then fired back up on Labor Day.

I have a real fireplace in the living room that burns on Sundays during NFL season once it gets cold enough.


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## flotek (Oct 20, 2009)

stint said:


> OWB: vs Traditional Indoor
> 
> Advantages:
> Less work: fewer loadings with bigger wood, easier ash cleaning



less work?????? fewer loads per day maybe but it will eat cords of wood like candy ,three+ times the cutting bucking stacking handling so id have to put that as a disadvantage, personaly i dont have the time or willpower for over a dozen cords geez i couldnt imagine messing around with that much wood just for some heat


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 20, 2009)

flotek said:


> less work?????? fewer loads per day maybe but it will eat cords of wood like candy ,three+ times the cutting bucking stacking handling so id have to put that as a disadvantage, personaly i dont have the time or willpower for over a dozen cords geez i couldnt imagine messing around with that much wood just for some heat



Yes, less work!

I heated with an indoor stove for a few years before I got the OWB.

Look how many times your hands touch one piece of wood before it is finally burned.

Indoor wood burner wood handling.....

once when cuting
once when splitting
once when loading on truck to get to destination
once to stack outside
once to carry into house in the fall
once to throw in wood burner



Outdoor wood burner wood handling......

Once when cutting
once when loading on truck
once to stack outside
once to throw in wood burner


It was even easier when I bought a triaxle load of wood. The guy stacked it all right beside the wood burner.

All I do is cut it up, stack it, then throw in when needed.


Ive had both and the OWB is less work in my opinion. Even though it burns more wood it is less work. No splitting and no carrying wood inside.

When splitting wood, you now have to stack each individual piece and carry each individual piece into the house. If you split one log into 4 pieces, you now have 4 pieces to handle and not one.


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## John D (Oct 20, 2009)

I keep hearing the OWBs burn 3x the wood.Im not buying it at all.A properly insulated OWB with good lines will not "eat" wood 3x faster. They burn more,maybe 20% more,if that than an indoor setup that is providing 100% of the heating needs of the house.Not to mention every OWB owner heats there hot water as well.This does burn more wood.Most ppl I know with inserts,use them to provide most of there heat,they usually have some supplimental heat and no DHW is heated.
I like having the mess outside,also easy to drag wood right up to the OWB and I leave my cheap McCullouch saw under my wood sheds roof,and cut as needed.When i get a buildup of "mess" i shovel it in the owb.Try that with an insert,you handle the wood many times.It also needs to be a lot smaller,I throw 12"x36" ,and 8"-48" long logs right into my OWB,and it will slowly burn them,the 12" rounds will burn for a full day easily.


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## Marc (Oct 21, 2009)

There's very little data obtained in a controlled environment to say what the potential or realized efficiency of OWB's is. However, there are at least 2 people over on ********** that switched from OWB to indoor gasifying boilers that saw reductions in wood usage of 40% or more. That's certainly a significant amount.

You can never get away from the fact that a water jacketed fire box will never realize high efficiencies by design. The complex molecules liberated by the pyrolization of wood will never be able to combust completely at 212F.

I'd urge everyone touting the capability of an OWB to burn green or unseasoned wood to stop listing that as an advantage as well. That causes more smoke, more complaints and more blowback against wood burners of all types.

Comparing inserts/stoves to OWB's is tough to do because they deliver heat in such different ways. So much of the choice should really come down to your own specific situation with your house and other circumstances.

A comparison between indoor "gasifiers" and OWB's is a better one. But that's been beat to death as well.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> There's very little data obtained in a controlled environment to say what the potential or realized efficiency of OWB's is. However, there are at least 2 people over on ********** that switched from OWB to indoor gasifying boilers that saw reductions in wood usage of 40% or more. That's certainly a significant amount.
> 
> You can never get away from the fact that a water jacketed fire box will never realize high efficiencies by design. The complex molecules liberated by the pyrolization of wood will never be able to combust completely at 212F.
> 
> ...




Shoot, let's face the real fact...no matter what design is used, wood burning efficiencies can never approach what is currently acheived by using fossil fuels....even with a gasifier.


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## Laird (Oct 21, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I'll list some advantages of an OWB. I'll include what others have and expand a few.
> 
> 1...Ashes and ash dust are outside
> 
> ...



I like this description best. I have used a woodstove in the past and currently have an OWB. I prefer the OWB for the above reasons, but if I had to buy my wood I might go back to a woodstove.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 21, 2009)

Laird said:


> I like this description best. I have used a woodstove in the past and currently have an OWB. I prefer the OWB for the above reasons, but if I had to buy my wood I might go back to a woodstove.



I'll drink to that.....one day will probably downsize, get closer to town. Nuthin like a good woodstove in an open unfinished basement.


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 21, 2009)

Stoves are not meant to heat a whole home.
They are not ducted and therefore like one said it get's too hot in that main room of the stove.Dust seems to be a concern.
Bugs and smoke too.

Maybe "stove" should be a furnace.Hooked to ducting to evenly heat the entire home.
With ducting you can have air filtration,humidifier,air conditioning,HEPA filter killing airborne pathogens.
Heck you can have hospital like air quality.

A proper drafting furnace will not put smoke into the home.
Bringing wood from outside into the furnace will not put bugs in your home.

Plus you can put in a hot water coil or probe to make your domestic hot water.
As a matter of fact you can get a furnace that burns wood/oil or gas.The liquid fuel can light the wood all in the same furnace.
So your backup for insurance is already in play in liew of installing a seperate unit to the OWB.

My neighbor at work and at home have owb's.
They go through mountains of wood.
1 had his pipe freeze and burst.It cost thousands for the backhoe guy to rip up his yard and drive way to repair the water lines.
The other neighbor had a water jacket rot out in 6 years.
That cost him a pretty penny to repair.
When the smoke blow towards my home I can not do anything in the yard.The stench of burning creosote is terrible gut wrenching.
I guess he burns green wood too.

If you heated 2 buildings you could get 2 furnaces for less than an owb. You'll burn 60 % less wood too. Year after year 60 % is alot of wood/work!

Forget a stove....think furnace.


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## Marc (Oct 21, 2009)

mtfallsmikey said:


> Shoot, let's face the real fact...no matter what design is used, wood burning efficiencies can never approach what is currently acheived by using fossil fuels....even with a gasifier.



Well, it's true due to the nature of the fuel, being a solid and generally much more complex when turned into a gas, that high combustion efficiences are harder to achieve than with liquid fuels that vaporize into a relatively small range of compounds. It certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though. Separating the pyrolysis from the combustion, as gasifying designs do, is definitely heading in the right direction.


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## Marc (Oct 21, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> *Stoves are not meant to heat a whole home.*
> They are not ducted and therefore like one said it get's too hot in that main room of the stove.Dust seems to be a concern.
> Bugs and smoke too.



Surely that depends on the design of the home, does it not? There are lots of people that design and build their homes around the principles of convective circulation and thermal mass heat storage. Stoves are not meant to heat a whole home any more than they are meant to heat a whole home. In other words, as far as I know, stove designers don't take such things into account when they design a stove, that's the job of the house's designer. A stove is simply a (majority) radiative, point source heater. What one does with that heat from that point on is another story altogether.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 21, 2009)

I used an indoor stove for about 3-4 years. I had a problem with carpenter ants. I brought in some wood and went down a few hours later to add some more and had carpenter ants everywhere. This was in January.

Water won't freeze in your lines if you have a fire in OWB!!!



I have some half rotted oak here now that is infested with termites, want to bring that in your home?

I've had both type furnaces. I feel the OWB is less work. and I don't see it using 60% more wood. I admit I might use 20%-30% more but not 60%.

Look how many times indoor furnace users handle their wood. In addition to having to split it. Then they handle each split. So if you split a log into 4 pieces, you are now handling four times as much wood.

If I throw 5 logs into my wood burner, you would be throwing 20 in yours.


Like I said, I've had both and the OWB is less work for me.

No mess in home and no fire hazards. No worry of chimney fires. No climbing on the roof to clean out the chimney.


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 21, 2009)

You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.

I go through 5-6 cords a 8 month heating season not 15-18 cords a heating season like you would in the same house with a boilr up here in northern Mn.
Multiply that over 25 years which the owb will not last,but if it did we would be talking on the low end 125 cords for my furnace vs. 375.
250 more cords......please.
a lb of wood is a lb of wood no matter how big the piece of wood is.


Marc...I agree that if you build your home in an open fashion with ceiling fans a guy can do a pretty good job of heating the whole home with a bigger stove.Especially is states that do not see temps much below 0.
Most guys I know have homes already built. They have sealed off basements that need heat to keeep water lines from freezing.We live in temps of 0-40 below zero....talk about heat load!
They have rooms with doors and hallways leading to these rooms. The homes are also 50-70 foot long.So heres where ducting comes into play.
You'll also need a back up source of heat .Here's where a multifuel comes in handy.
No stove I know have gas or oil burning as well as wood in the same appliance.

I'm not saying that stoves or OWB's do not have there place in the market.
They do in fact and work well for some people.
I was just pointing out through this thread that maybe a furnace could be a better choice and I posted the differences that I see.
What do I know...rhetorical...don't answer.
Not everyone should get an OWB or a stove or a furnace. Some can't with their local codes.
I can't and don't sell everyone I talk to a Yukon furnace, but the folks that do buy them are happy and compared to what they had been doing with wood they say this was a better option for them.....


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## beerman6 (Oct 21, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> 1 had his pipe freeze and burst.It cost thousands for the backhoe guy to rip up his yard and drive way to repair the water lines.



Sounds like bad planning there.


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## twofer (Oct 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> A comparison between indoor "gasifiers" and OWB's is a better one. But that's been beat to death as well.



Agreed

But I have to say that I think that it should be beat to death over and over. It's time to start thinking more about efficiency. Just because wood is very plentiful for those of us who use it doesn't mean shouldn't be talking about it's conservation as the benefits of efficiency go beyond just cutting less wood.


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## miller1 (Oct 21, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.
> 
> I go through 5-6 cords a 8 month heating season not 15-18 cords a heating season like you would in the same house with a boilr up here in northern Mn.
> Multiply that over 25 years which the owb will not last,but if it did we would be talking on the low end 125 cords for my furnace vs. 375.
> ...


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## twofer (Oct 21, 2009)

miller1 said:


> CrappieKeith said:
> 
> 
> > You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.
> ...



To be perfectly blunt all the "negative talk" about OWB's is just being truthful about their flaws. Now there are varying degrees of efficiency they can be run at, like any wood burning device, but by the fundamentals of their design compared to other ways of heating with wood IMO they are the most inefficient way to heat. They are going to go through more wood and most of that is going to be due to the large firebox design which leads to smoldering loss. If they were loaded with smaller hotter fires and reloaded more often or just had a smaller overall firebox design and better matched up to the heating load they were servicing they'd be more efficient. But that's not why people buy them. People buy them so they have to load them infrequently and you can't do that and expect high efficiency. Without some sort of thermal storage it just isn't possible.

In addition to all of that without secondary combustion the OWB's are missing out on a ton of available BTU's that are just going up the flue.

And yes I do run a gasifier so I am a bit biased but I believe everything I've said to be factual.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 21, 2009)

I believe some of those "flaws" are exagerated.

I don't burn 15-18 cords of wood in a season and don't know anyone who does. miller1 lives in MI too and says he doesn't burn 15-18 cords neither.

Yes, they smoke but not as bad as some claim. I have two neighbors. One neighbor retired and big into camping. He says the smell reminds him of camping. The other neighbor is an oldtimer that says he likes the smell of wood smoke in the air.

Seems like its always the neighbors that like to complain. Claims about the smoke smelling bad and being "gut wrenching" makes me laugh, especially coming from a guy that sells wood furnaces. 

We can talk efficiencies but then we should all go back to fossil fuels, as someone else stated.

The fact that I can burn, rotted, insect infested, green, soft, wet wood is a plus. I favor seasoned wood but its nice to have the ability to burn other stuff.

Here are some pics of my OWB idling right now. Notice you don't see huge clouds of gut wrenching smoke billowing from the stack. Second pic shows it has an actual fire in it.


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## beagledog (Oct 21, 2009)

Dang Windwalker, just looking at that pic made my gut wrench..ahgggg!!!! When I bought my owb I knew what I was getting into and knew what I was getting away from(2 indoor burners). I'm happy and that's all that matters. Serious wood burning of any kind is more of a lifestyle, if you ask me.


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## yodayoda (Oct 21, 2009)

I couldn't wait till fall to fire up my owb. Love the smell of birch when it burns. I don't have a have any close neighbors, so thats not an issue.. I used arox 11 cord to heat my older 1500 sq foot house, 36*42 shop and DHW. Overall I'm very happy with my owb.

I think a few people have givin a bad name to owb, burning garbage, green wood, to close to neighbors, etc.

Also, if you don't enjoy cutting wood, don't buy one.


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## Butch(OH) (Oct 21, 2009)

I heated with stoves for 30 years and went with an OWB 4 years ago to heat the same house and shop that was being heated with the stoves. My total wood usage has remained so close I call it the same and I am heating my dmoestic water needs also. Every OWB tha I have personaly seen that hogs wood is one of two things. No, or bad line insulation or a Hardy (sry guys) I will never go back to stoves unless the commies ban the OWB. There is a reason that so many OWBs are sold and it aint because there are 1000s wish is to live in the woods 24/7 to keep the fuel cut. Oh ya, I was supposed to be comparing to a woodstove. I dont miss cleaning chimneys, smoke in the house every 50 degree windy day, ash dust and getting up to fix the fires. I do miss crawling up beside it and warming my bones.


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## modn (Oct 21, 2009)

I grew up with a a wood furnace in the house. We fed it up to 10 cords per heating season. Today I heat 2900 sqft and can control the heat like I was burning oil. My OWB consumes 7ish cords a year. To me that isn't bad. I could've put a wood furnace inside, but with the expense of putting up a chimney also I decided not to, along with my boy having slight asthma. I do not believe 40-50% more consumption though. Doing the math with amount of btu's in fuel oil my oil burner consumed in the past compared to the wood I burn and it is pretty close. I'm very happy with my decision.


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## twofer (Oct 22, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I believe some of those "flaws" are exagerated.
> 
> I don't burn 15-18 cords of wood in a season and don't know anyone who does. miller1 lives in MI too and says he doesn't burn 15-18 cords neither.



How do you believe they are exaggerated? 





Windwalker7 said:


> Yes, they smoke but not as bad as some claim. I have two neighbors. One neighbor retired and big into camping. He says the smell reminds him of camping. The other neighbor is an oldtimer that says he likes the smell of wood smoke in the air.
> 
> Seems like its always the neighbors that like to complain. Claims about the smoke smelling bad and being "gut wrenching" makes me laugh, especially coming from a guy that sells wood furnaces.



I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB.

Here's a little anecdotal evidence from a guy who doesn't sell furnaces and is pretty easy going. One of my neighbors has an OWB and from what I can see he uses the "ability" of an OWB to burn green wood quite a bit. My home sits 1900 feet off the road and he's another couple hundred yards up the road. Sometimes when the wind is right I can smell that smoke dragon puffing away. Does it bother me? No, I like the smell. Can I see it bothering someone else? Heck yes and especially if you live close to this guy. There is no reason anyone should have to put up with someone's smoke like that on their own private property, they have a right to that.



Windwalker7 said:


> We can talk efficiencies but then we should all go back to fossil fuels, as someone else stated.



I know I'm being a bit argumentative here and I'm sorry but I just can't get behind logic like that. Just because we can't be as efficient as a fossil fuels doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to achieve higher efficiency. That kind of logic totally ignores the fact that wood is a cheaper fuel source for heating purposes.

There are efficiency gains to be had in burning wood and to ignore them is just a cop out.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 22, 2009)

twofer said:


> How do you believe they are exaggerated?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People touting the wood usage of an OWB is exagerated. I used the example of miller1. He lives in roughly the same climate and uses nowhere near 15-18 cords of wood per heating season. Other OWB owners have chimed in on this thread claimiming that they use nowhere near the amount of wood that nonOWB users are claiming......That is an exageration!

Stories of huge gut wrenching clouds of smoke pouring out of the chimneys is an exageration.

Those pics in my post are of rotted, bug infested wood burning, yet you claim that burning such wood will, and I quote "I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device."


I burn the rotted, stuff now and save the good stuff for colder weather.

People naturally want to think what they have is best.

You said..........I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB."


It is a feature. A safety feature perhaps. We don't worry about chimney fires.

Your neighbor uses his OWB to burn green wood. Thankfully you don't have a problem with the smell as others have. But you need to understand, neighbors, or just plain people in general, like to complain about what other neighbors are doing.

They complain about dogs barking, chickens crowing, property lines, ATV noise, the smell of cows or horses...etc.

We had some neighbors that recently moved here from in town (city folks). One day they approached my wife and I and wanted us to sign a petiton against our other neighbors about one guy's dogs barking and another guy's chickens crowing. We refused.


They seemed a little upset that we wouldn't sign. I told them that those sounds are part of country life and I had no problem with it. If they didn't like it, move back in town.

You see, that is the problem. neighbors just like to complain what the other guy is doing. You always hear people complaining about having neighbors with loud ATVs. Even though the ATV owners ride on their own property. They call it noise polution. Isn't it funny that the complaining neighbor's lawn mower is louder than the ATV?

I'm getting off track here.


You said....."I know I'm being a bit argumentative here and I'm sorry but I just can't get behind logic like that. Just because we can't be as efficient as a fossil fuels doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to achieve higher efficiency. That kind of logic totally ignores the fact that wood is a cheaper fuel source for heating purposes.

There are efficiency gains to be had in burning wood and to ignore them is just a cop out."

My logic is, there are those "green everything eco whacko's" that would have a problem with you. They'd say your gassifier creates polution and that you shouldn't have it. 

They might advise you to switch to solar or wind technology or something like that. Heat with natural gas maybe, its more "efficient" causes less polution? Isn't that the same thing you are telling OWB owners?

Hopefully one of your neighbors will have a problem listening to your chainsaw in the back yard. Is it fair for you to create noise polution so that your neighbor can't even listen to the birds sing from his very own back porch? Why should you be allowed to disturb the whole neighborhood's peace and quiet.


I know I'm being a little too critical. I'm just trying to make the point, that neighbors just complain and are never happy unless they are complaining.


We had a neighbor complaining about another neighbor's horses smelling. Its that bad. People just like to complain.



Thank God my closest neighbor is about 600 ft away.


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## bowtechmadman (Oct 22, 2009)

I like my OWB for all the reasons stated. I heat 4000sq ft and my 30x40 barn (heat it only when i'm in it, weekends generally), and my DHW. I'd say i use approx. 10 - 12 cords. Like many I burn some nasty half rotted wood in the fall, saving my better, seasoned stuff for colder temps.
Each to their own.
I also like the fact I don't have a neighbor w/in 1000 yds.


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## twofer (Oct 22, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> People touting the wood usage of an OWB is exagerated. I used the example of miller1. He lives in roughly the same climate and uses nowhere near 15-18 cords of wood per heating season. Other OWB owners have chimed in on this thread claimiming that they use nowhere near the amount of wood that nonOWB users are claiming......That is an exageration!



Getting caught up in the numbers is really just splitting hairs as there are a number of factors that influence how much wood is used. What it comes down to it if you had an OWB and a gasifier hooked up to the same home with all other factors being the same the gasifier is going to use less wood. The temperatures that the OWB produces are below what a gasifier can produce therefore even with an OWB operating at peak efficiency it is still not exchanging the same amount of BTU's for the same amount of wood.




Windwalker7 said:


> Stories of huge gut wrenching clouds of smoke pouring out of the chimneys is an exageration.



No it's really not. There are plenty of pictures out on the net if you get your Google on. On top of that I've personally witnessed my neighbor produce a smoke cloud down our little dead end country road. If I can distinctly smell it over half a mile a way then that is unacceptable for those who are living next to him. There is reasonable amounts of intrusion onto others property and then there is producing an obnoxious amount of smoke that drifts onto others' property. That is highly disrespectful and he has no right to put that much smoke onto others' property, regardless of how "country" that is.




Windwalker7 said:


> Those pics in my post are of rotted, bug infested wood burning, yet you claim that burning such wood will, and I quote "I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device."
> 
> 
> I burn the rotted, stuff now and save the good stuff for colder weather.



If you burn green wood it will smoke more than seasoned wood and it will put more particulates in the air. 




Windwalker7 said:


> People naturally want to think what they have is best.



Human nature I 'spose but it's hard to ignore the arguments in efficiency.



Windwalker7 said:


> You said..........I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB."
> 
> 
> It is a feature. A safety feature perhaps. We don't worry about chimney fires.



I don't agree that being able to safely burn wood that is putting more particulates in the air is a feature.



Windwalker7 said:


> My logic is, there are those "green everything eco whacko's" that would have a problem with you. They'd say your gassifier creates polution and that you shouldn't have it.
> 
> They might advise you to switch to solar or wind technology or something like that. Heat with natural gas maybe, its more "efficient" causes less polution? Isn't that the same thing you are telling OWB owners?



I think you are missing my point here. My point isn't that OWB's are all bad but rather we have cleaner and more efficient ways of burning wood at this point.



Windwalker7 said:


> Hopefully one of your neighbors will have a problem listening to your chainsaw in the back yard. Is it fair for you to create noise polution so that your neighbor can't even listen to the birds sing from his very own back porch? Why should you be allowed to disturb the whole neighborhood's peace and quiet.
> 
> 
> I know I'm being a little too critical. I'm just trying to make the point, that neighbors just complain and are never happy unless they are complaining.
> ...



That's kind of an odd thing to wish on someone. *confused*

My closest neighbor is over 1900 feet (that's how long my driveway is) away so if my chainsaw is loud enough to be bothering them then I'm probably destroying my hearing anyways.


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## twofer (Oct 22, 2009)

bowtechmadman said:


> I like my OWB for all the reasons stated. I heat 4000sq ft and my 30x40 barn (heat it only when i'm in it, weekends generally), and my DHW. I'd say i use approx. 10 - 12 cords. Like many I burn some nasty half rotted wood in the fall, saving my better, seasoned stuff for colder temps.
> Each to their own.
> I also like the fact I don't have a neighbor w/in 1000 yds.



What if you could produce more BTU's from a less amount of wood and not even have to worry about burning nasty half rotted wood?


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## flotek (Oct 22, 2009)

this thread kinda reminds of the guy at the local restaurant who tokes on a big cigar in the booth right beside yours and the whole area is totally engulfed in a cloud of stale smoke while you and your family try to choke your steak quickly so you can leave. its the old "hey thats just too bad for them cause its my right to smoke up the place if i want to " attitude that gets wood burning bans started and then everyone suffers.seems to me if a guy wants to deal with 8 -10 cords only to heat a small house and or shop running his OWB thats fine with me...its his back ,that is totally your right but smoking up the neighborhood is irresponible IMHO .and regardless of what applicance you prefer if your going to burn wood atleast dont be an a$$ about it , season the stuff first. green wood has just over half the BTU of properly seasoned wood and time and preparation is *free! so dont make extra work for yourself and smoke up the town because your lazy and inconsiderate


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 22, 2009)

twofer said:


> Getting caught up in the numbers is really just splitting hairs as there are a number of factors that influence how much wood is used. What it comes down to it if you had an OWB and a gasifier hooked up to the same home with all other factors being the same the gasifier is going to use less wood. The temperatures that the OWB produces are below what a gasifier can produce therefore even with an OWB operating at peak efficiency it is still not exchanging the same amount of BTU's for the same amount of wood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, The gasifier burns less wood and is more efficiient.

I agree that OWB smoke. Sometimes they smoke alot. I agree there too.

We can really split hairs if you want. Your car driving down the road emits polution and it is causing acid rain that falls on my truck. You buy stuff made in China that caused me to get laid off. The pesticide and fertilizer you dump on your lawn is causing birds to feed their young tainted insects and they are dieing in my yard.

But seriously, you are complaining about your neighbors wood smoke you can smell 1/2 mile away and you are offended. Yet you burn wood? You sound like some of my neighbors.

The original poster was asking about wood stoves and OWBs. Now here we are comparing Gasifiers and OWBs.

What you are doing, comparing the two, is similar to as if some yahoo would come on this site and complain that your chainsaw is a 2 stroke. They'd tell you should have a 4 stroke because it is more efficient and doesn't polute as bad, and is quieter.

He could be just like you and saying we should all strive to cut down on polution and burn less gasoline in chainsaws. This is exactly what you are doing in this thread about OWB and gasifiers.

Would you go out and buy a 4 stroke chain saw? What he is saying is true though. I agree with what you are saying about the gasifier being more efficient.

As long as we OWBs are having fun cutting wood, heating our homes, can find enough wood and don't have any complaining neighbors that are close to us, what is your point?

Oh yeah, at 1900 ft, I would be able to hear your chainsaw just like you would get a whiff of wood smoke. That is totally unacceptable. I want to hear birds, dammit!


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 22, 2009)

flotek said:


> this thread kinda reminds of the guy at the local restaurant who tokes on a big cigar in the booth right beside yours and the whole area is totally engulfed in a cloud of stale smoke while you and your family try to choke your steak quickly so you can leave. its the old "hey thats just too bad for them cause its my right to smoke up the place if i want to " attitude that gets wood burning bans started and then everyone suffers.seems to me if a guy wants to deal with 8 -10 cords only to heat a small house and or shop running his OWB thats fine with me...its his back ,that is totally your right but smoking up the neighborhood is irresponible IMHO .and regardless of what applicance you prefer if your going to burn wood atleast dont be an a$$ about it , season the stuff first. green wood has just over half the BTU of properly seasoned wood and time and preparation is *free! so dont make extra work for yourself and smoke up the town because your lazy and inconsiderate



Let's face it, if you're burning wood, your making smoke somewhere.


So if my neighbor has a coal furnace and I don't like the smell of coal smoke, I should complain?

My neighbor has chickens and I don't like them crowing, I should complain?

I don't like the smell of my neighbor's horses, I should complain?

I don't like the sound of the firemen's siren on Saturday afternoons at 1:00, I should complain?

I don't like all the people when they have a parade down my street, I should complain?

I don't like the construction crew patching potholes on my road, I should complain?

I don't like the smell of your wife's perfume in the booth next to me at a resteraunt, I should complain?

I don't like your kids giggling and laughing at the park, I should complain?

There are lots of things we can all complain about, how come we didn't have these problems 50 years ago? Everyone heated with wood and coal. Cars didn't have polution standards. There was polution everywhere yet you didn't hear all the whining you hear today.


We are getting waaaaay off topic here aren't we?


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## MishMouse (Oct 22, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I'll list some advantages of an OWB. I'll include what others have and expand a few.
> 
> 5...you can burn green or wood that isn't quite seasoned yet.
> 
> 17... People give you wood that they won't burn indoors. especially pine. I get lots of free pine. i had a buch of wood given to me that was infested with termites. People give me rotted stuff too. It all burns in the OWB



People burning green or unseasoned wood is the main reason why OWB are getting banned. There are some OWB that obtain very high efficiencies, but dry seasoned wood *must* be used. 

As for a OWB using 60% more wood then a wood stove. That is true if you are comparing a EPA stove burning well seasoned wood, to a Non-gassification OWB using green wood. 


*Burning green wood in any wood burning appliance either it a furnace, a wood stove or a OWB is a waste of wood and heat.*

If the salesman tells you something different they are lying!
Ask yourself how much heat is wasted drying the wood to get it to combust?


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 22, 2009)

Man, you OWB guys are organized - what are you, union?  I'm a happy woodstove owner, so I'll take windwalker's post and shine the light of the woodstove on it. Notice I said stove, not cute little fireplace or room sized woodburner. I refer mainly to my big old woodchuck, which was designed as a wood furnace, but is not connected to my ductwork, so it functions as a stove only.



Windwalker7 said:


> I'll list some advantages of an OWB. I'll include what others have and expand a few.
> 
> 1...Ashes and ash dust are outside
> True. I have to dump my ash pan once every 2-3 days, and take the ash can out about once a week. Dust is minimal.
> ...


Pine burns just fine properly seasoned, just ask those way up north or in the PNW.[/quote]

Now, the other woodstove advantages:

Nice place to warm yourself up in a hurry after a cold day outside.

No need to get dressed up to go feed the beast when it's -30°outside, just toss in a few blocks (careful not to drop wood on your feet while wearing slippers!)

On warmer days, I just let the fire out, and relight when the house cools off. I don't need to keep all that water hot to have "heat on demand". Maybe this is where some of the wood savings comes from.

No need to fire up a generator to keep warm when the power goes out.

Bringing wood inside is good exercise. Maybe not much of an advantage, but it gets me in better shape. My cardio routine is grab an armload, couple steps to the house, up 3 stairs, couple of steps, down 12 stairs, few more steps, stack wood, and repeat as needed. I can keep enough inside to last through any cold/snowy snap, and bring it in when it's nice.

Probably some others I didn't think of as well.


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## flotek (Oct 22, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> Let's face it, if you're burning wood, your making smoke somewhere.
> 
> 
> So if my neighbor has a coal furnace and I don't like the smell of coal smoke, I should complain?
> ...



yes every wood appliance smokes to some extent but my chimney is 25 feet off the ground not 4 ..and of coarse im not condoning people to complain over every little thing that annoys like the colorful list you chose but what im trying to say that if your going to burn ..burn dry seasoned wood and not junk not sopping wet wood or car tires ,theres a way to be respectful about it (it effects other people beside yourself)without peeving everyone off in your neighborhood,im not concerned with cfcs pollution al gores mansions carbon footprint lol or any of the nonsense the government makes up these days ,just saying be considerate when doing it thats all


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 22, 2009)

Steve NW WI said:


> Man, you OWB guys are organized - what are you, union?  I'm a happy woodstove owner, so I'll take windwalker's post and shine the light of the woodstove on it. Notice I said stove, not cute little fireplace or room sized woodburner. I refer mainly to my big old woodchuck, which was designed as a wood furnace, but is not connected to my ductwork, so it functions as a stove only.
> 
> 
> Pine burns just fine properly seasoned, just ask those way up north or in the PNW.



Now, the other woodstove advantages:

Nice place to warm yourself up in a hurry after a cold day outside.

No need to get dressed up to go feed the beast when it's -30°outside, just toss in a few blocks (careful not to drop wood on your feet while wearing slippers!)

On warmer days, I just let the fire out, and relight when the house cools off. I don't need to keep all that water hot to have "heat on demand". Maybe this is where some of the wood savings comes from.

No need to fire up a generator to keep warm when the power goes out.

Bringing wood inside is good exercise. Maybe not much of an advantage, but it gets me in better shape. My cardio routine is grab an armload, couple steps to the house, up 3 stairs, couple of steps, down 12 stairs, few more steps, stack wood, and repeat as needed. I can keep enough inside to last through any cold/snowy snap, and bring it in when it's nice.

Probably some others I didn't think of as well.[/QUOTE]


Lots of good stuff here, Thanks. In the aspect of one v. the other, the above IMO is the best yet. This is exactly the type of response I was looking for. If there is more of this type response I would surely like to see it. I like the union crack too. Seems like the OWB have a staunch following in the wood burning arena. Are there any stove users or furnace users that have the same staunchness to them?

Hard to keep this from a bickering match, I'm surprised with the restraint so far, Thankyou. 

This is being printed out and given to friend of mine that is going to wood heat. He is trying to decide what wood heat device he will be installing. He has no computer so I said I would get the info I could from people that actually use these type animals for heat. Retro an OWB into an existing house will be no problem in his set up. A furnace could possibly be tapped to his existing duct work, depending on how a chimney would have to be worked into the equation extreme last on the list. That last one with the chimney is why he was looking for more of the stove/OWB.

If you have anymore he would appreciate it. 



Owl


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## Marc (Oct 23, 2009)

Just one more flaw I'd like to point out to those comparing the smoke from an OWB to things like noise or innocuous odors like manure-

While the former may be nuisances, it's not a fair comparison with wood smoke because wood smoke, especially the kind produced from burning wood incompletely, is actually a health hazard, especially with repeated exposure. Burning good dry wood with my 25 foot indoor chimney creates less bad stuff, and what it does create stays up high until it has a chance to diffuse to safer concentrations.

Smoke created burning incompletely, especially burning green wood, is cooler, doesn't have the buoyancy, and is being released from a chimney (in most OWB cases) much closer to the ground.

If I was smoking out my neighbor on a regular basis, and they complained, that doesn't fall in the same category IMHO as the people who just like to complain about their neighbors for the sake of complaining. If there's a legitimate health concern, then it's a legitimate complaint.


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 23, 2009)

Fprgot one thing. With the difference in price between a stove and an OWB, you can buy a decent wood hauler, a splitter, and of course a couple saws.


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## twofer (Oct 23, 2009)

Spotted Owl said:


> If you have anymore he would appreciate it.
> Owl



One of the positive aspects that I have failed to point out is that if he is even considering going the OWB route he can get a gasification boiler with thermal storage for the same amount of cost as an OWB. How do I know this? Because I was at the same crossroad last year. 

With a gasification boiler setup with thermal storage he can realize all the benefits of an OWB but at the same time have a highly efficient unit that uses less wood and burns much cleaner.


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## Butch(OH) (Oct 23, 2009)

Steve NW WI said:


> Man, you OWB guys are organized - what are you, union?  I'm a happy woodstove owner,.



We aint as bad a bunch as some would like you to believe. Been two months since I kicked an old lady, a year since I pinched a baby,,, uh,, couple since I robbed a bank,,,,,,,


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 23, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> We aint as bad a bunch as some would like you to believe. Been two months since I kicked an old lady, a year since I pinched a baby,,, uh,, couple since I robbed a bank,,,,,,,



Oh somebody gotta take this guy down...LOL
Butch,You sound like a good egg!


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 23, 2009)

Marc said:


> Just one more flaw I'd like to point out to those comparing the smoke from an OWB to things like noise or innocuous odors like manure-
> 
> While the former may be nuisances, it's not a fair comparison with wood smoke because wood smoke, especially the kind produced from burning wood incompletely, is actually a health hazard, especially with repeated exposure. Burning good dry wood with my 25 foot indoor chimney creates less bad stuff, and what it does create stays up high until it has a chance to diffuse to safer concentrations.
> 
> ...





What if you are not smoking out your neighbor?

Seems like most of the OWB owners here don't have neighbors or their neighbor has an OWB too.

You'd think that if these OWBs pumped out all this smoke that the actual owner would have the biggest problem with it. After all, their home would be closest.

Everything these days is a health hazard. the food we eat, the car we drive, even the medicine we take.

It would be interesting to know how many that complain about OWBs, smoke ciggarettes.


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## John D (Oct 23, 2009)

As an OWB owner,I took neighbors into consideration before purchasing and determining where to put my OWB.If I didnt live where I live or own 22 acres,I wouldnt have bought one.ITs ppl that do not have enough property or distance between them and there neighbors that have the problems.I burn dry wood,but every once in a while it will smoke pretty good if you load it at the wrong time...in general mine smokes no more than an average wood stove.


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## yodayoda (Oct 23, 2009)

John D said:


> As an OWB owner,I took neighbors into consideration before purchasing and determining where to put my OWB.If I didnt live where I live or own 22 acres,I wouldnt have bought one.ITs ppl that do not have enough property or distance between them and there neighbors that have the problems.I burn dry wood,but every once in a while it will smoke pretty good if you load it at the wrong time...in general mine smokes no more than an average wood stove.



Yup, same here


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## bowtechmadman (Oct 23, 2009)

Twofer... I'd be crazy if I told you I wouldn't want more BTU's from my wood. Of course I'd like to burn less wood. Have what I have at this point and don't intend to go down the road for another 10 grand till I have to. I agree the gassifiers (from what I hear) are more efficient than an owb, and I have encouraged a few friends that were looking at OWB's to check out the gassifiers.
I just won't go to burning inside again other than a fireplace for asthetics. I grew up humping wood into the basement and having to clean up after...lol not again.
Steve...I don't heat my barn full time, running that loop on a seperate pump, I like the ability to just turn the pump on to heat up the barn rather than having to build a fire. No doubt she can really burn some wood when i've got the pump on for the barn.
I'm for all wood burning...just keep the propane and oil trucks away, just prefer the advantages of having my fire away from my home. Biggest hurdle before installing was my wife's fear of being able to smell it. I've run it year around in the past and never once had her mention the smoke smell except a couple times when it was very overcast and rainy and the smoke just settled. So kinda confused w/ neighbors etc being able to smell it.
Burn seasoned and safe everyone!


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## Marc (Oct 24, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> What if you are not smoking out your neighbor?
> 
> Seems like most of the OWB owners here don't have neighbors or their neighbor has an OWB too.
> 
> ...



Well if you noticed, nowhere in my post did I claim that all OWB users are smoking out your neighbors. If you took your neighbors into consideration before purchasing, and knew the smoke wouldn't reach them, kudos. That's being responsible. I don't have any problem with that. I was addressing a few posts earlier in the thread that compared complaints about smoke with other relatively innocuous nuisances. My point was, it's not a good comparison. That's all.

And I think the "everything these days is a health hazard" attitude is a cop out. You had me agreeing with you until then. It's pretty indisputable that repeated exposure to wood smoke is a health hazard and if it's one you can't control because you live down wind of a smoke dragon, then there's a good reason for complaint. That situation is then no different than someone dumping something harmful upstream into the water supply and not caring about those living downstream.


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## rob206 (Oct 24, 2009)

Hmmm. A nice spirited debate here. I chose an OWB over a woodstove for a couple reasons. One, the price of a stainless steel chimney for the woodstove brought the total package close to the price of the boiler total package. Two, I can heat my hot water. There are other reasons as well, but most have already been hashed out in previous posts.

I won't claim an OWB is better, just different set of advantages. Some day I would like to have a woodstove maily because I love watching a fire. The boiler will stay however.

Gasser vs traditional OWB. Yes, maybe they smoke less, but the pictures of OWB's you guys have seen are all the same. Those pictures get recycled and are used by every states' EPA or department of air quality or whatever gov't agency is trying to shut down the use of OWB's. I think CB is heading in the right direction with their E classic. Still some problems to workout on them though. I don't know if my 5036 achieves secondary combustion, but I can tell you that when it is buring good there is very little smoke.

Also, for all the gassers here, let me point out that the EPA is not your friend. They do not condone or like wood burning. They merely tolerate it and suggest that if you must burn wood at least use EPA certified appliances. See, that is code for their true intentions which are to eliminate wood burning.


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## Butch(OH) (Oct 24, 2009)

rob206 said:


> Also, for all the gassers here, let me point out that the EPA is not your friend. They do not condone or like wood burning. They merely tolerate it and suggest that if you must burn wood at least use EPA certified appliances. See, that is code for their true intentions which are to eliminate wood burning.



Now Ill give you a BIG 10-4 for that statement and add that you EPA stove guys are in the same group of scum as us boiler owners. You are TOLERATED for now because they need YOU to fight us as they phase in control. But you dont need to believe me, just follow the path of control in places where it started. Read about how a person cannot heat with a wood fire of a ANY kind before you come back and say BS Butch(OH).

Anyone who heats with a wood appliance of any kind should be arm and arm, not bickering over who puts a bit less stuff in the air.


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## czar800 (Oct 24, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> Now Ill give you a BIG 10-4 for that statement and add that you EPA stove guys are in the same group of scum as us boiler owners. You are TOLERATED for now because they need YOU to fight us as they phase in control. But you dont need to believe me, just follow the path of control in places where it started. Read about how a person cannot heat with a wood fire of a ANY kind before you come back and say BS Butch(OH).
> 
> Anyone who heats with a wood appliance of any kind should be arm and arm, not bickering over who puts a bit less stuff in the air.






BIG 10-4.... Good post!!





.


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## 603doug (Oct 24, 2009)

I have had the indoor boiler, wood stove and last year bought an out door gassifer and love it No smoke, no mess inside, efficient as one can expect from a wood burner.
New Hampshire passed the epa crap last year, do not get me wrong I have a friend who if it will burn he considers it heat and I would shoot him if I lived next door from the smoke. But the typical scheme will be if you have one there will be a carbon tax to use it because of the harm you are causing and the lost revenue from fuel taxes. "Why should I pay and not you" attitude, just because we pay the land taxes and try to get something off the property to help offset the taxes and keep the land undeveloped "for the children"
Sorry off subject love my wood boiler


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## slowp (Oct 24, 2009)

Scott,

I saw a lot of those "little metal houses" during my exile in Wisconsin. I think it is more of a midwest thing. My boss had one. It came with his house when he bought it. He didn't use it for his house but used it to heat a greenhouse. I think the lines to the house froze up and burst too. He liked having a woodstove to hunker up to. 

My neighbor *in town *had one. It usually was OK but I swear sometimes he'd burn garbage in that thing, or green wood and it sure did make the neighborhood unpleasant. The things, along with woodstoves, probably aren't the best things to use frequently when living in town.

I don't believe I've seen any OWBs out here. Note that most of these guys live in a more severe climate. I also wonder about the legality of the OWBs.
Warshington State has passed tougher air quality standards than our dreaded neighbor to the south--Collyfonia. For woodstoves that is. I don't know about Oregon. 

The OWBs work like radiant heat? Am I correct? That takes a while to heat up a house. Of course, my wood stove is taking a while right now. But I can hunker up to it and warm up during that time. 

My concern here is about power outages. We have wind and floods and such.
I can heat and cook with my woodstove during those times. 

As for running out to the woodpile in cold weather. You upper midwest people would consider our cold snaps balmy. But the downer is going out to the woodpile during the monsoon, not wearing gloves, and grabbing a slug that is attached to the chunk of wood. ICKY!


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## yodayoda (Oct 24, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> Now Ill give you a BIG 10-4 for that statement and add that you EPA stove guys are in the same group of scum as us boiler owners. You are TOLERATED for now because they need YOU to fight us as they phase in control. But you dont need to believe me, just follow the path of control in places where it started. Read about how a person cannot heat with a wood fire of a ANY kind before you come back and say BS Butch(OH).
> 
> Anyone who heats with a wood appliance of any kind should be arm and arm, not bickering over who puts a bit less stuff in the air.



Agreed, rep sent


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 24, 2009)

Well my friend read what was printed out and was able to get to a computer to read the rest. He did some poking around, he found he can put in two stoves and buy a few trucks of wood and still have plenty of bucks left over.

He did like the info about the OWBs. Bottom line was the bottom line for him. Running out to fill the boiler in a 2"+ an hour rain storm wasn't appealing either, along with frequent long power outages in winter. 

Thanks for all the info on this thread. If it hadn't been that much of a spread in cost he would have gone with an OWB. 


Thanks folks.



Owl


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## J.W Younger (Oct 25, 2009)

miller1 said:


> CrappieKeith said:
> 
> 
> > You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.
> ...


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 25, 2009)

Spotted Owl;1788315he found he can put in two stoves and buy a few trucks of wood and still have plenty of bucks left over.
Thanks folks.
Owl[/QUOTE said:


> Have your friend look into an indoor wood furnace like CrappieKieth sells. You can have wood with propane/natural gas/fuel oil backup, and heat the whole house.
> 
> I'm not endorsing the Yukon Eagle stoves, they are probably what I'd buy, just because if something didn't work, I could drive up there and put a boot in their posterior in less than two hours. There are a quite a few companies that make a similar product, do some research and let us know what he buys.


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## Scootermsp (Oct 25, 2009)

Some of you cheering for your wood stoves forgot to add in the cost of having an extermination company enclose your house in plastic and fumigate it for termites. To each his own but I'll keep my mess outside. Besides I enjoy being out there processing my wood. No body bothers me or they know they will get recruited to help.opcorn:


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## Paul61 (Oct 25, 2009)

J.W Younger said:


> miller1 said:
> 
> 
> > Same here, I burn 7-9 cord a year but thats operating year round and I have a wood stove in the shop. So, 6 cord for winter heat-1 cord for hot water and 1 cord burned in shop stove.Of course its not as cold here.
> ...


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## slowp (Oct 25, 2009)

Scootermsp said:


> Some of you cheering for your wood stoves forgot to add in the cost of having an extermination company enclose your house in plastic and fumigate it for termites. To each his own but I'll keep my mess outside. Besides I enjoy being out there processing my wood. No body bothers me or they know they will get recruited to help.opcorn:



My woodpile is 100 feet away. I put a few sticks in a plastic washtub on the porch. The only wood stored inside the house is kindling. If the weather forecast is for a wind "event" I'll make sure I have enough chunks handy so I don't have to go for a walk in the wind. I do have a Doug-fir nearby with some pitch tubes showing. It is closer than the woodpile so I might have bark beetles in my hardi-plank some day! To each their own.


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## twofer (Oct 25, 2009)

To the OP glad we were able to help him make his decision.



Butch(OH) said:


> Now Ill give you a BIG 10-4 for that statement and add that you EPA stove guys are in the same group of scum as us boiler owners. You are TOLERATED for now because they need YOU to fight us as they phase in control. But you dont need to believe me, just follow the path of control in places where it started. Read about how a person cannot heat with a wood fire of a ANY kind before you come back and say BS Butch(OH).
> 
> Anyone who heats with a wood appliance of any kind should be arm and arm, not bickering over who puts a bit less stuff in the air.



Seriously? 

I may be mistaken but I don't believe anyone in this thread has called for outlawing them. A few, myself included, have pointed out some of their flaws that we believe they have. How about instead of issuing a call to arms in the form of a "divided we fall" proclamation we instead have a factual debate? You're only upping the emotional ante' in this thread.


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 25, 2009)

Steve NW WI said:


> Have your friend look into an indoor wood furnace like CrappieKieth sells. You can have wood with propane/natural gas/fuel oil backup, and heat the whole house.




I will pass this along. I would think he would be able to tap into his existing duct work from his removed elect furnace. This may be more to his liking depending on how the chimney come into play.



Owl


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## rob206 (Oct 26, 2009)

twofer said:


> To the OP glad we were able to help him make his decision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe you aren't, but there are some advocacy groups that sure are. Maybe not you in particular, but many gassers love to reference EPA studies(many of which are flawed) and site woodburing.org as sources for your information.


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## Butch(OH) (Oct 26, 2009)

twofer said:


> Seriously?



Serious as a heart attack my friend. Emotional? you be right there. I stand on what I said.


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## MishMouse (Oct 26, 2009)

For good information on OWB check out ********** and its boiler room section. 

Here are a few links I found on the banning of OWB and other wood burning appliances.

http://www.newsminer.com/news/2009/may/12/fairbanks-considers-eliminating-outdoor-furnaces/

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/38217/

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/37857/

http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/34685/

They are out there, trying to put a ban on everything we do.
*Our goal is to give them less amunition.*

So try to burn well seasoned wood, regardless of what you own.
Again I state If your salesman told you you can burn green wood efficiently in any wood burning appliance they are lying, everytime you burn green wood you are wasting wood, heat and you are creating allot of smoke. Be, it in a OWB, a Gassification, a EPA stove, a non-EPA stove or even a barrel stove. The less moisture the more heat you get with less smoke.


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 26, 2009)

MishMouse said:


> They are out there, trying to put a ban on everything we do.
> *Our goal is to give them less amunition.*
> 
> So try to burn well seasoned wood, regardless of what you own.
> Again I state If your salesman told you you can burn green wood efficiently in any wood burning appliance they are lying, everytime you burn green wood you are wasting wood, heat and you are creating allot of smoke. Be, it in a OWB, a Gassification, a EPA stove, a non-EPA stove or even a barrel stove. The less moisture the more heat you get with less smoke.




I'll second !

We all have different needs.
There are many types/quality available.


What I said was through my own expierences...some others may have different expierences.
To each his own....it's sorta our right as Americans.


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## wampum (Oct 26, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> Now Ill give you a BIG 10-4 for that statement and add that you EPA stove guys are in the same group of scum as us boiler owners. You are TOLERATED for now because they need YOU to fight us as they phase in control. But you dont need to believe me, just follow the path of control in places where it started. Read about how a person cannot heat with a wood fire of a ANY kind before you come back and say BS Butch(OH).
> 
> Anyone who heats with a wood appliance of any kind should be arm and arm, not bickering over who puts a bit less stuff in the air.



Butch, I have been burning wood fir a long time. My Dad burned wood and coal,before 1960,a lot of people burnt wood and coal. The seventies were what I would call the first energy crunch. I got out of the service and filled up at a service station in Ca. for 23 cents a gal. I started to sell stoves in 1976,and watched the first big stove boom come in. I sold Fishers,Alaskians,and Riteways.


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 26, 2009)

Every year this thread pops up.
It always goes the same way.
I'm gonna railraod it....

Been hitting the bulls lately!


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## wampum (Oct 26, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> Now Ill give you a BIG 10-4 for that statement and add that you EPA stove guys are in the same group of scum as us boiler owners. You are TOLERATED for now because they need YOU to fight us as they phase in control. But you dont need to believe me, just follow the path of control in places where it started. Read about how a person cannot heat with a wood fire of a ANY kind before you come back and say BS Butch(OH).
> 
> Anyone who heats with a wood appliance of any kind should be arm and arm, not bickering over who puts a bit less stuff in the air.



Butch, I have been burning wood fir a long time. My Dad burned wood and coal,before 1960,a lot of people burnt wood and coal. The seventies were what I would call the first energy crunch. I got out of the service and filled up at a service station in Ca. for 23 cents a gal. I started to sell stoves in 1976,and watched the first big stove boom come in. I sold Fishers,Alaskans,and Rite ways. To keep abreast of things in the industry,I went to a seminar on wood heat at Notre Dame university in 1979. The professor who conducted the seminar,said the following about burning wood. If you take two typical trees,burn one and leave one to rot,you will obtain the same pollutants,burning them will create them faster,and rotting them will take more time. The main differences will be by burning them,will be heat(good thing) and smoke or particles escaping by burning. According to that professor,it is a myth to believe that burning wood makes more pollutants then rotting the same log. The pollutants only happen faster when burning. I believe that most of this anti burning is hype. Some people are upset with the smoke if it is near by,and in some cases rightfully so. I agree with what you said,and will add to it. There are all kinds of nut jobs out there. Some want to stop hunting,stop us eating meat,burning any fuel they feel is dirty. Some want all the lights turned off,they like to look at the dark. Some want extreme farming changes,that are putting farmers out of business. There are more and more of the nut jobs. I am for personal rights,as long as you do not hurt anyone else. I am glad to see people burning wood in any stove,more power to them. My only wish is that all of us would use as good a wood as possible,that means a good dry wood. You will get more heat,and for indoor stoves it is a lot safer. Burning wet wood,you do not get the BTU's. But like I said,that is my wish,if you want to burn green wood,that is your business. You will cut more wood,split more wood,and get less heat,dry wood is less work.


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## giXXer (Oct 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Do not underestimate the beauty and simplicity of a free standing radiant wood stove. No electricty, no fans, no pumps, no ducts and the doors and the air control are the only moving parts. This system should still be running in 50 years!



I love my OWB, but this is a valid point. I do miss watching the fire in the house as well. I went with the OWB for all of the advantages mentioned plus we had a carpenter ant "attack" two years ago that almost ended my wood burning entirely (the wife went nuts, need I say more?). The ants and new carpet swayed our decision to keep the mess outside.

Sorry guys, but I have to throw OWB's under the bus for a disadvantage that has not been mentioned. You can't leave it unattended for any length of time in the winter. I do have propane back-up that will keep the house warm and also keep the boiler from freezing, but I hate to think of the cost of heating 400 gallons of water that is sitting outside with propane. It kind of defeats the purpose of heating with wood. Also, if you leave it for a couple of days the fire will typically be out and there is a pretty long recovery time depending on how cold the water gets.

Another point I'd like to address, the smoke. Most OWB's produce more smoke than an indoor wood stove. I agree. But it's the operator, not the stove. Since it is very difficult to burn green wood in a wood stove I believe a majority of the wood that gets burned is dried properly. With OWB's being able to burn almost anything and the inherent laziness of man, a nuisance is created.

Consumption: Last year I burned 28 face cords which equals 9.3 full cords. This year it will be closer to 10 full cords since I added another heater in the shop. I heat close to 2,200 square feet of house with skylights and vaulted ceilings to 72 degrees, all of the domestic hot water, the 26X28 garage all winter, and the 20X20 workshop. Since I have a dual outlet boiler I still have one outlet unused that will be hooked to a pole barn in the future. Heating just the house to 66-68 degrees and the hot water propane = $3,800. I can purchase (I don't buy it, this is just for the example) the wood delivered and stacked next to the boiler for about $800 to heat the house to 68 and heat the water. I roughly doubled my consumption by heating the garage and work shop. They may not be "efficient," but they are certainly economical. In order to heat all of this with stoves I would need 4 of them and would be constantly getting fires started and waiting for the heat (I know I would because I have done it).

I believe that wood stoves may consume less wood per year, but they also don't heat as much or as evenly. While you may only burn 5 cords per year in a stove you are typically relying on propane or oil to heat the remainder of the house and hot water.

What it boils down to for me is: I love to burn wood! I enjoy running chainsaws, being outdoors in the woods, heating with a renewable resource, keeping my money from the "man," saving thousands of dollars, and keeping my wife and child warm, happy, and very comfortable. Sound familiar? Whether you have an OWB or an inside stove I think the reasons will be similar for most. The fact of the matter is you and I have more in common than that neighbor that pays the propane bill and we should work to protect everyone's privilege to burn wood.

B.T.W. Our cabin will never have an OWB, we love the 35+ Y.O. cast iron wood stove. It's perfect for that application. My house will most likely never have another indoor stove, the OWB is perfect for my application. To each his own, depending on application, of course!


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## giXXer (Oct 26, 2009)

WOW! Sorry about that guys! I guess I got a little long-winded.


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## MishMouse (Oct 26, 2009)

+1

:agree2:

giXXer, good post.

A little long winded maybe, but with definitely words of wisdom.


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## wampum (Oct 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Do not underestimate the beauty and simplicity of a free standing radiant wood stove. No electricty, no fans, no pumps, no ducts and the doors and the air control are the only moving parts. This system should still be running in 50 years!



Sweet, Tree,I like the fire. I have a Woodstock Fire View,like your Jotul,a great stove. I also have a Fisher in the basement,for when it gets real cold.


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## swyman (Oct 26, 2009)

giXXer said:


> WOW! Sorry about that guys! I guess I got a little long-winded.



Gixxer, with all of that on one run, what kind of water return temps do you have? What boiler do you have. I am just curious as to how much heat you can pull out of a run. I am pulling around 50 deg. out of my loop with a 1" line. Don't know how much more I should try, would like to heat the garage.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 27, 2009)

Got the best of both worlds...OWB and woodstove in the living room. I've been using the woodstove on the mild days, and use it during the cold windy Alberta Clipper-type days...especially while watching football.


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## bowtechmadman (Oct 27, 2009)

Best post of the thread Gixxer...well said. I am able to leave in the winter, once again there is a cost attached, glycol in the lines and I leave the pumps run to ensure they don't freeze. Shouldn't be too bad on the oil backup since my water is going through a hot plate.


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## giXXer (Oct 27, 2009)

swyman said:


> Gixxer, with all of that on one run, what kind of water return temps do you have? What boiler do you have. I am just curious as to how much heat you can pull out of a run. I am pulling around 50 deg. out of my loop with a 1" line. Don't know how much more I should try, would like to heat the garage.



I actually have never taken a temp reading on the return line. Now that I am curious, what would be the best way to take the temp? Infrared thermometer? 

The heat exchanger in the garage is the last one in the line, it's the largest, and it still works awesome. I can take the garage (approx 26X28) from 30 degrees to 65 degrees in about 10-15 minutes. The insulated pex tubing comes into the basement from the boiler, feeds the forced air furnace exchanger, then the water heater plate exchanger, then the 70,000 btu hanging exchanger in the shop, then, finally, to the 130,000 btu +/- (I believe it is 135,000 btu, oversized, but has a variable speed fan) hanging exchanger in the garage. The return line to the boiler from the garage exchanger doesn't feel a whole lot colder than the feed line into the basement. If you are worried about losing too much heat you can always put the water heater plate exchanger last in line. Even with the cold water mixing valve turned all the way up the water at any of the taps is raging hot. I used the pricey insulated pipe that my boiler maker recommended and buried all of the pipe 6' in the ground to minimize heat loss.

The boiler I have is a Hawken Energy HE-2100. It holds 400 gallons and I believe is rated to heat up to 10,000 square feet so I wasn't all that worried about heat loss or heating capabilities related to the size of the boiler. I was more concerned with not being able to flow enough water with all of the piping, connections and the few 90 degree fittings that I had to use to do the install all on a small taco pump. I was also a little concerned about putting too much load on the taco pump on the back of the boiler with how far the water has to snake through the pipes so I bought a spare, just in case. I haven't had any issues with the system yet (knock on wood!). Oops, actually I did! When I fired the boiler up this year most of the brass fittings were dripping. I found them to all be loose! I think the expansion and contraction of the brass going from 160+ degrees to 50 degrees caused this. I re-tightened all of the fittings and it's all good. One advantage of the HE-2100 is I still have one more outlet to heat a pole barn, pool, and hot tub! I now have a neighbor about 800 yards from my house so I don't know about running it in the summer for the pool and tub, but we'll see. He's already thanked me twice for keeping the road graded so I don't think it will be a problem.

Swyman, one thing that I would recommend, especially if you are experiencing 50 deg heat loss (which sounds like a lot to me), is to get a garage unit with a variable speed fan. The variable speed fans typically only come on the larger units which is another recommendation. Having a larger exchanger and larger fan running on a lower speed appears to heat the garage better and also appears to "rob" less heat from the exchanger. Maybe I phrased that wrong. By having the fan run on a lower speed in a two stall garage I think you get less heat loss. It just seems to run more efficiently. When I had the 70,000 btu (single speed fan) heater in the garage it would run all the time and since it points toward the door it would melt the snow outside. With the larger unit it no longer does that and the garage feels much warmer.


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## giXXer (Oct 27, 2009)

bowtechmadman said:


> Best post of the thread Gixxer...well said. I am able to leave in the winter, once again there is a cost attached, glycol in the lines and I leave the pumps run to ensure they don't freeze. Shouldn't be too bad on the oil backup since my water is going through a hot plate.



Thank you. I thought about adding glycol to prevent freezing in case of a power outage or vacation. How much glycol do you have to add to the water? I never looked any further into it because I thought treating 400+ gallons might get a little pricey, then, knowing my luck, I would have a catastrophic leak! I also don't have a hot plate exchanger for heat. I just assume that forced air propane heat warming the exchanger in the furnace plenum to keep the 400 gallons of recirculating water that is stored outside warm might also get a little pricey.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 27, 2009)

giXXer said:


> Thank you. I thought about adding glycol to prevent freezing in case of a power outage or vacation. How much glycol do you have to add to the water? I never looked any further into it because I thought treating 400+ gallons might get a little pricey, then, knowing my luck, I would have a catastrophic leak! I also don't have a hot plate exchanger for heat. I just assume that forced air propane heat warming the exchanger in the furnace plenum to keep the 400 gallons of recirculating water that is stored outside warm might also get a little pricey.



Last year, I checked on antifreeze from my HVAC wholesaler..$55/5-gal. bucket... does a 1/1 mix...ouch!

giXXer....An IR thermometer is a beautiful thing!....IR's won't work well on copper, brass, other shiny surfaces. Wrap black electric/duct tape around those materials. If you have all of those HX's in series, I'm surprised you're getting enough flow to do the job...if it ain't broke, don't fix it!


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## giXXer (Oct 27, 2009)

mtfallsmikey said:


> Last year, I checked on antifreeze from my HVAC wholesaler..$55/5-gal. bucket... does a 1/1 mix...ouch!
> 
> giXXer....An IR thermometer is a beautiful thing!....IR's won't work well on copper, brass, other shiny surfaces. Wrap black electric/duct tape around those materials. If you have all of those HX's in series, I'm surprised you're getting enough flow to do the job...if it ain't broke, don't fix it!



I was worried as well. It does a great job heating the chosen areas and this time of year I only feed the boiler once every two days. Pretty soon it will be once per day, then in mid Dec. thru Feb./Mar. I fill it 1/2 to 2/3 full twice per day.

Has anyone heard of taco or recirculating pumps burning up because of too much load? I have not tested GPM's on the pump with no load and then with the current load, but looking through the clear filter housing the water is still moving at a good pace. Like you said Mikey...if it ain't broke...well...I'll keep the back-up pump handy, just in case.

And, finally, $55/5 gallon bucket? Ouch is an understatement! I figure with the boiler and all of the piping there is at least 450 gallons of water. That would be $2,475.00 in glycol, not including sales tax and probably $400.00 in shipping. You probably should have PM'd me the pricing. When the wood stove guys see that price us OWB guys are gonna' be eatin' some crow with how much we brag about them.


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## Austin1 (Oct 27, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Do not underestimate the beauty and simplicity of a free standing radiant wood stove. No electricty, no fans, no pumps, no ducts and the doors and the air control are the only moving parts. This system should still be running in 50 years!


I could not agree more I kept the house at +74° last Dec in -40 Weather with just a wood stove and fireplace insert. But when I retire I would like a nice home far from any body in the Foothills, with Elk walking through the back yard and Cougars trying to sneek up on a sleepy golden retriever on the deck. But would like a OWB to heat water.


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## flashy (Oct 27, 2009)

I heated my home with a woodstove in the basement for 30 years and switched to an owb 3 years ago. My chimney was shot and it wasn't feasible to spend the money it would take to fix or replace a 35' tall chimney.

Yes, the owb was also spendy, but, I love it. The stove had to be tended too often, and the lp furnace ran to much. Now with the owb, the lp furnace isn't even turned on. 

Yes, the owb burns more wood, but, I've heated my house for the last MONTH with crap that otherwise would have been in a bonfire. 

Even thought I burn more wood, I spend less time cutting and splitting. The hot water heater is turned off, and we keep the house warmer.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 27, 2009)

Your circ. will fry from cruddy water/seal leak before it dies from overloading...that is the slow death. Do a piping/head calc., and see exactly where you're at?...First, try this: 

GPM=BTUH divided by delta t x 500...delta T is differnce between supply/return temps. 20 deg. is the norm. Then..figure pipe size.

Pipe size GPM
3/4 2-4
1 4-8
1 1/4 8-12

Then...head loss 
What is the length of the run, out and back? take that, multiply by 1.5, for fittings, etc. then multiply that by .04 (4' head per 100 ft.of pipe, based on 4 ft./sec. of velocity)

than...add in the head loss for your HX's.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 27, 2009)

Try again...

3/4" pipe = 2-4 gpm
1" pipe = 4-8 gpm
1 1/4" pipe = 8-12 gpm


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## swyman (Oct 28, 2009)

Gixxer, sorry took so long to reply, tons going on. I have a thermometer TEE'd into the return at the boiler. I have the tube heat exchanger for the hot water heater as my first stop, then to the 40"X24" heat exchanger in the ductwork. My freind is in the commercial HVAC business and sized the heat exchanger size to the flow of my 5 ton blower so as to not be a restriction. A fellow on this site said I'm getting about 150,000 BTU's off of it. I will change my blower speed to it's lowest setting. I have a Taco 014 and my boiler sits 225' from the house with a 1"PEX. I lose about 4-5 deg (which I think is good) at return on boiler when furnace is not calling for heat but will have a 50 deg. difference when it blower runs. My flow is only about 6 gpm which I think is terrible. I expected much more from that larger of pump and was considering adding another one at the boiler return so I would push and pull. Theroretically if I increase my flow than I will have higher return temperatures. I have a CB 6048 which holds 400 gallons similar to yours. Also, I have 1" pex. Any ideas would help greatly. I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 28, 2009)

swyman said:


> Gixxer, sorry took so long to reply, tons going on. I have a thermometer TEE'd into the return at the boiler. I have the tube heat exchanger for the hot water heater as my first stop, then to the 40"X24" heat exchanger in the ductwork. My freind is in the commercial HVAC business and sized the heat exchanger size to the flow of my 5 ton blower so as to not be a restriction. A fellow on this site said I'm getting about 150,000 BTU's off of it. I will change my blower speed to it's lowest setting. I have a Taco 014 and my boiler sits 225' from the house with a 1"PEX. I lose about 4-5 deg (which I think is good) at return on boiler when furnace is not calling for heat but will have a 50 deg. difference when it blower runs. My flow is only about 6 gpm which I think is terrible. I expected much more from that larger of pump and was considering adding another one at the boiler return so I would push and pull. Theroretically if I increase my flow than I will have higher return temperatures. I have a CB 6048 which holds 400 gallons similar to yours. Also, I have 1" pex. Any ideas would help greatly. I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?



That 1" pipe is your greatest enemy...but, if you have only 1" taps at the boiler, increasing pipe size won't help. Going to a primary/seconday piping scheme instead of having your stuff in series would be the best move. The second pump will help too.


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## swyman (Oct 28, 2009)

mtfallsmikey said:


> That 1" pipe is your greatest enemy...but, if you have only 1" taps at the boiler, increasing pipe size won't help. Going to a primary/seconday piping scheme instead of having your stuff in series would be the best move. The second pump will help too.



I know I should have used 1 1/4 but did not know at the time of install. I don't want to spend another $2400 for ThermoPex to the house and back! Just trying to compare to other people and see my options if I have any.


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 28, 2009)

swyman said:


> I know I should have used 1 1/4 but did not know at the time of install. I don't want to spend another $2400 for ThermoPex to the house and back! Just trying to compare to other people and see my options if I have any.



$2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
What did the OWB cost you?


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 28, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> $2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
> What did the OWB cost you?



How much does it cost to have a chimney built?

How much did your wood splitter cost you?

How much does it cost you to heat your hot water?

Is your garage heated?

Is your work shop heated?

Do you pay a chimney sweep or climb up on the roof and do it yourself?


:greenchainsaw:


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## John D (Oct 28, 2009)

swyman said:


> I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?




Im not sure if the return water being that cool is a problem.I think that is a good thing,your extracting the heat from the 1" lines as your supposed too.You can still heat with 130 degree water....I would size your exchangers for the garage a few sizes larger than needed,that way even if the main heat is on,it will still heat your garage in an timely fashion.If the main house heat is off,it will heat it very,ver quickly quickly.The floor heat only needs low temps anyway,so that isnt a problem.Your only other option is to install another lineset for the garage and floor heat...I think I would try to use what you have first,if it doesnt work out,then you can add the line set or additional circulator.
The 6048 is a big unit,I dont think it would have a problem keeping up with its 393 gallons of hot water ,of course youll have to load it more often...


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 28, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> How much does it cost to have a chimney built?
> 
> How much did your wood splitter cost you?
> 
> ...




Different equipment for different situations:

Can't use the wood forced air furnace to:

heat other buildings
use in a counterflow configuration
no basement
no ductwork

OWB won't:
humidify air
clean the air
air condition


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 28, 2009)

No splitter...I buy my wood 100$ a full cord cut split and delivered.
I brush my own flue and the liner cost 500$.

I don't have a shop to heat or a garage, but when I build an attached garage my furncae will heat it and my home.


So what does it cost to dig up your lines once they have frozen because you had no power?
Ok so you bought a generator and you may added glycol which costs$$$$
Did you know that glycol reduces your efficiency by another 20% or better?
How do you heat without power...oh that's right generator.What does it cost to run that on gas?
How do you filter air in your home or have A/C add ducting...what did that cost you?
What about the other issue of boilers?
Rotting water jacket,smoke,excessive wood consuption,having to go out to fill it,shoveling the ashes out.

Like Mike said they all have their purpose, which if you look back I said that too.

I was just commenting on pex tubing.
Didn't know it cost that much.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 28, 2009)

That's why I made my own insulated piping for 1/3 the price. It may not be as good, but I only have 2 deg. loss on a 90 ft. run.


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## giXXer (Oct 28, 2009)

swyman said:


> Gixxer, sorry took so long to reply, tons going on. I have a thermometer TEE'd into the return at the boiler. I have the tube heat exchanger for the hot water heater as my first stop, then to the 40"X24" heat exchanger in the ductwork. My freind is in the commercial HVAC business and sized the heat exchanger size to the flow of my 5 ton blower so as to not be a restriction. A fellow on this site said I'm getting about 150,000 BTU's off of it. I will change my blower speed to it's lowest setting. I have a Taco 014 and my boiler sits 225' from the house with a 1"PEX. I lose about 4-5 deg (which I think is good) at return on boiler when furnace is not calling for heat but will have a 50 deg. difference when it blower runs. My flow is only about 6 gpm which I think is terrible. I expected much more from that larger of pump and was considering adding another one at the boiler return so I would push and pull. Theroretically if I increase my flow than I will have higher return temperatures. I have a CB 6048 which holds 400 gallons similar to yours. Also, I have 1" pex. Any ideas would help greatly. I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?



Since our systems are so similar I wouldn't think adding another heat X would be a problem. Adding another heat X AND in floor heat might be too much, especially 20X20 of piping in the ground. Of course, using the second output on your boiler would require burying insulated pex to the house again which would be cost prohibitive and a pain. If it were me I would install the heat X and the in floor piping on the same loop and try it. Worst case scenario would be if it is too much demand on the system you could bypass the in floor heat and just use the hanging unit. This may sound stupid and wasteful to not use the in floor after installing it, but at least it's in the ground and could be used in the future with a different approach. If you don't put it in (like me) prior to pouring the concrete you'll never be able to. I was swayed away from in floor for the garage because I don't heat it everyday through the winter and I have been told that heating quickly can't be achieved with the piping in concrete. Now that it's done, I wish I had it. A buddy has it in his garage and laying on the ground to work on snowplows, snowmobiles, log splitters, Jeeps, etc. has never been so nice. Since he doesn't get along with his wife very well his garage is always 70 degrees and stays that way all winter so it works well for him. His garage is also under a large part of his home so the heat rises into the living areas.

I am more of a trial and error type of guy. I've had great success (some might say luck) just using common sense in the past, but also have been bitten in the a$$ by some of my hair brained ideas. I'm also not very "algebraically inclined." Your HVAC buddy or mtfallsmikey might be of more help calculating if it will work or not. Luckily, if you break it down, these things are pretty simple animals and yours is certainly large enough to handle the task at hand. I don't think 6 GPM of 100 degree water coming into 400 gallons with a burn barrel that size is going to be a problem. You'll burn a little more wood, but it might be worth it for you to have a nice and toasty garage and garage floor.


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## giXXer (Oct 28, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> $2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
> What did the OWB cost you?



Was that comment/question actually meant to be helpful or just argumentative? You're in the business, you know what pex costs, you know what OWB's cost. If you don't, you haven't done your homework to educate yourself on the industry you make a living off of. How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.

Yes! Wood stoves are great! I wouldn't give up the one we have in the cabin. People that own them typically love them. I believe you will find the same thing with OWB's. Differences in needs, wants, budgets, and applications lead to differences in buying decisions. Indoor wood stoves are not a perfect fit for everyone just as OWB's are not for everyone. As a steward of wood burning and an industry "professional" I would think you should be more educated on the topic and be held to a higher standard of knowledge than the rest of us. How can you honestly and ethically sway a customer to spend their hard earned dollar on your product not knowing anything about other products available?


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## wampum (Oct 28, 2009)

I do not have an OWB,I also have no problem with them,any time you cheat OPEC,I am for it. I have a question,I have one of those oil filled electric heaters. Is it possible to replace,the water with oil,and stop any freeze up problems,if you lose power. Ma-be even run a coil of oil lines thru a water tank,to heat your hot water. If this is possible,would the oil not stay hotter longer then water. Also not using water,would you not have less,corrosion? I have no idea if this would work,just asking a question.


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## CrappieKeith (Oct 28, 2009)

giXXer said:


> Was that comment/question actually meant to be helpful or just argumentative? You're in the business, you know what pex costs, you know what OWB's cost. If you don't, you haven't done your homework to educate yourself on the industry you make a living off of. How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.
> 
> Yes! Wood stoves are great! I wouldn't give up the one we have in the cabin. People that own them typically love them. I believe you will find the same thing with OWB's. Differences in needs, wants, budgets, and applications lead to differences in buying decisions. Indoor wood stoves are not a perfect fit for everyone just as OWB's are not for everyone. As a steward of wood burning and an industry "professional" I would think you should be more educated on the topic and be held to a higher standard of knowledge than the rest of us. How can you honestly and ethically sway a customer to spend their hard earned dollar on your product not knowing anything about other products available?



Oh great now my honesty and integrity is brought up again.
To be honest I don't have the time nor the inclination to know every little detail about all furances,stoves,boilers on the market.
I do know the furnace competitors fairly well...well enough to make out the differences and to be to explain what these difference mean to us.

If folks are needing owb's or indoor water furnaces I'll refer them out to others that are pros in that industry like Garn or Tarm or Heatmore.
Of coarse I'm biased towards Yukons.
Show me a better warm air furnace that makes wood/oil or wood gas furnaces.
I believe them to be the best out there through my 13 years of searches.
I did not know the cost of pex tubing but to go so far as to say I don't know anything and how could I sway someone ....
Funny how guys can take shots without any responsibility.

This thread was about the differences....we have been talking about just the ....differences.
Taking cheap shots at a guy who is here to help discover these differences makes you look silly.
It's funny how personal some guys make this kind of thread.
It's not about you or your buying decision. 
OWB's work great for some people...oh wait now I'm repeating myself.

Was I lying when I made points? No
This is not a personal attack..we are talking difference/issues.
I was talking in general terms too.
Some products are better than others.
Wood furnaces have there bad points too.


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## blackdogon57 (Oct 28, 2009)

When you include your personal name, company name, phone mumber, company website , etc on every single post that you make you open yourself up to people questioning your integrity when it comes to threads like this one.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 28, 2009)

One of the reasons people burry their pex lines is to get below the frost line to help prevent freezing.
While this may not prevent freezing totally in all areas it certainly helps.

I built my own insulated pex lines also!

As for a generator, we have one but I have never used it for the OWB.

I was considering powering it with solar power. 

Take a deep cycle trolling battery and hook up a solar panel to recharge it. Maybe even two panels.

Also hook up a power inverter to the battery.

This should be enough to power the pump for a few days until the electric comes back on.

No worry of lines freezing and no generator, how about that!

While this may not power the fan on your existing furnace, it will prevent spending all those $$$ to dig up your frozen lines like some are saying.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 28, 2009)

We have about evry heat type imaginable in our home.

Oil furnace

Electric baseboard

Indoor wood burner

Propane fire place

OWB

The OWB is hooked up to the forced air of the oil furnace and also radiant floor heating in the great room.

So if we ever get the blizzard of the century and the power is knocked out, I guess I'll be heating with the indoor wood burner and propane fire place.


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## greengiant (Oct 28, 2009)

Maybe this should be a different thread, but it seems like everyone has their OWB hooked to a forced air system vs. hot water baseboard. Is that by design? Anyone have experience with both and have a recommendation as to which they liked?


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## swyman (Oct 28, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> $2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
> What did the OWB cost you?



THis is my 3rd season, paid $6725 for the CB 6048 (which was the cheapest I could find at that time, I think they are around $8K now) and the Thermopex was $10/foot, I bought 240'. I did not price the 1 1/4" but wish I would have installed it.


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## swyman (Oct 28, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> How much does it cost to have a chimney built?
> 
> How much did your wood splitter cost you?
> 
> ...



I built my own splitter that attaches to my Bobcat, it has a 5" bore cyl. 48" stroke sitting on a 12" I-beam that is 15' long. I had most of the parts, put $300 into it.
My boiler heats my hot water so cost is $0.00
I don't yet have my garage heated, my shop is heated but uses a 450K BTU fuel oil furnace
I need not clean the chimney, it is attached to the boiler which sits 225' from the house


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## swyman (Oct 28, 2009)

Gixxer, I misled you on the floor heat. I have a 400 sqft kitchen which has 14' ceilings. I have 2 heat runs in there but that room is always about 5 deg cooler than the rest of the house. It is all tile flooring and thought I would try the 1/2" pex in between the joists? I have heard they work well. Just thought it would add more comfort to that room. Anyone out there done this?


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 28, 2009)

One more thing, my stove has exactly 4 moving parts, 2 doors and two dampers. I don't forsee any of them failing any time soon.

I realize that an OWB can run off one pump, but I've seen a lot of elaborate setups on here.

My maintenance is dump ashes and inspect/clean as needed chimney. I will also add replace firebricks occasionally, since I have some to do now. What is the maintenance schedule on an OWB?

I'm in favor of more OWBs being sold. One of our major customers at work is Cummins Power Generation (formerly Onan). They sell a TON of home sized backup power units, something I don't need. I do have access to a 3500W Honda that me and 3 friends bought to power the TV and satellite in the ice shack, but they might need it worse than me.


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## giXXer (Oct 29, 2009)

swyman said:


> Gixxer, I misled you on the floor heat. I have a 400 sqft kitchen which has 14' ceilings. I have 2 heat runs in there but that room is always about 5 deg cooler than the rest of the house. It is all tile flooring and thought I would try the 1/2" pex in between the joists? I have heard they work well. Just thought it would add more comfort to that room. Anyone out there done this?



Doesn't the pipe get installed above the sub-floor, under the tile in most installs. I would imagine you would have to insulate under the pipes really well to make it effective.


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## giXXer (Oct 29, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> Oh great now my honesty and integrity is brought up again.
> To be honest I don't have the time nor the inclination to know every little detail about all furances,stoves,boilers on the market.
> I do know the furnace competitors fairly well...well enough to make out the differences and to be to explain what these difference mean to us.
> 
> ...



Take shots? Nice spin on the situation as that is exactly what you have done. Your points on page two have been heard. Your latter points and criticisms as well. Then a legitamite, somewhat off-topic, question is asked by swyman and you take your jab on pex then again later in the same thread on the possible disasters of OWB's.

You claim to be here to help so I'll ask the question again. Was your post seriously meant to be helpful or just argumentative? If helpful, exactly how?

I understand why you haven't actually addressed my post. Cheap shots they certainly were not. I firmly believe if you consider yourself a "professional" you should be well educated in your industry, including details. You don't agree with that. Remember? You don't have the "time or inclination." If stating what I believe (the whole professional knowing his chosen industry thing) is a cheap shot that makes me look silly...well, I guess I look silly.

Honesty and integrity being brought up? I had no idea yours have been questioned in this forum before. I'm shocked! None of my comments in my previous post have been meant to be cheap shots. Question your motive and your knowledge in your chosen field? Maybe. No need to answer my questions, they were rhetorical as you have already answered them very clearly in your previous posts. I am glad, however, that you find this conversation so "funny." After all, this forum is meant to be informational AND entertaining! I personally think it's "funny" how some people think they can come on here and push their products and belittle the competitors products.


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## Butch(OH) (Oct 29, 2009)

greengiant said:


> Maybe this should be a different thread, but it seems like everyone has their OWB hooked to a forced air system vs. hot water baseboard. Is that by design? Anyone have experience with both and have a recommendation as to which they liked?



I think most people merge the OWB into their current heating system for cost reasons. Around here that means forced air the great majority of cases. In my case the house is fully and correctly ducted so the forced air works great. That is not always the case, lots of older houses around here never had proper ducting installed when central heat was installed many years ago so base boards might be a better way to go? I am going into year 4 with mine and on the coldest windiest day we have had so far my system still has not been even close to taxed for delivery of BTUs. I am very happy with my OWB/forced air setup.


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## giXXer (Oct 29, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> I think most people merge the OWB into their current heating system for cost reasons. Around here that means forced air the great majority of cases. In my case the house is fully and correctly ducted so the forced air works great. That is not always the case, lots of older houses around here never had proper ducting installed when central heat was installed many years ago so base boards might be a better way to go? I am going into year 4 with mine and on the coldest windiest day we have had so far my system still has not been even close to taxed for delivery of BTUs. I am very happy with my OWB/forced air setup.



I agree. Even though central A/C is not all that popular in my area a majority of the homes are heated by forced air systems. Forced air with duct work is typically quite a bit less expensive than running all of the plumbing, cost of the baseboard units, and cost of a natural gas or propane boiler. I also agree with Butch that most of the OWB's being installed are retro-fits on existing homes. I already had a 2 year old 98% efficiency forced air propane furnace and central air installed so the decision to use a forced air heat X was an easy one and relatively inexpensive compared to installing baseboard units.

When I was researching OWB's I did find one install with a combination of baseboard units and heat exchangers. One of the 6 Hawken units I looked at and spoke to the owners about uses 2 hanging units and a large furnace with blower motor that has been gutted to house the heat X. This heats his business. His home, which is adjacent to the business, previously had a fuel oil boiler with baseboard heat so he removed the old boiler and tied the wood stove in. Since he does not use A/C in his business and was sick of hearing this huge blower motor fire up to heat the 3-4,000 S.F. space when he was on the phone or watching T.V. he converted everything to baseboard heat. He likes how the baseboards radiate the heat and how their silent operation is. It looked to me like a pretty expensive conversion considering he uses all copper on the inside. He simply justified it by saying it's only a one time expense paid upfront that he gets to enjoy for years to come.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 29, 2009)

swyman said:


> Gixxer, I misled you on the floor heat. I have a 400 sqft kitchen which has 14' ceilings. I have 2 heat runs in there but that room is always about 5 deg cooler than the rest of the house. It is all tile flooring and thought I would try the 1/2" pex in between the joists? I have heard they work well. Just thought it would add more comfort to that room. Anyone out there done this?



Yes, I have done it.

We had an addition built on our home. The room is 24x30 with an 18ft cathedral ceiling and a loft (bedroom) upstairs.

We had a propane fireplace intalled and electric base board to provide some heat We only have one heat duct in that room from the forced air oil furnace. Needless to say, the electric baseboard made our electric bill outragious and the propane fire place had the upstairs bed room roasting hot even with ceiling fans on.

Anyway, we self installed radiant floor heat in that room when we got the OWB.

The water comes in from the OWB to a water to air HX in the plenum, then comes out and goes right into a water to water HX for the radiant floor. I have a mixing valve to keep the water temp to about 130*.

I made two 20ft manifolds with 5 nipples on each manifold. (One output, one return) Each nipple has about a 160ft run of 1/2" pex run double between the floor joists in the crawl space below that room. 

My setup is like the parrellle header diagram in this link

http://www.radiantcompany.com/details/joists.shtml

I made my own aluminum tranfer plates out of a roll of flashing. I cut them 16" x6" and had a friend that made a jig for his log splitter to put the groove into the flashing.

I must say, that I am proud of the setup and that it does work very, very well. The carpeted floor reads about 85* with the infra red thermometer. Feels good on those cold evenings, let me tell you.

Sorry to get off topic, just wanted to answer the question.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 29, 2009)

giXXer said:


> Since our systems are so similar I wouldn't think adding another heat X would be a problem. Adding another heat X AND in floor heat might be too much, especially 20X20 of piping in the ground. Of course, using the second output on your boiler would require burying insulated pex to the house again which would be cost prohibitive and a pain. If it were me I would install the heat X and the in floor piping on the same loop and try it. Worst case scenario would be if it is too much demand on the system you could bypass the in floor heat and just use the hanging unit. This may sound stupid and wasteful to not use the in floor after installing it, but at least it's in the ground and could be used in the future with a different approach. If you don't put it in (like me) prior to pouring the concrete you'll never be able to. I was swayed away from in floor for the garage because I don't heat it everyday through the winter and I have been told that heating quickly can't be achieved with the piping in concrete. Now that it's done, I wish I had it. A buddy has it in his garage and laying on the ground to work on snowplows, snowmobiles, log splitters, Jeeps, etc. has never been so nice. Since he doesn't get along with his wife very well his garage is always 70 degrees and stays that way all winter so it works well for him. His garage is also under a large part of his home so the heat rises into the living areas.
> 
> I am more of a trial and error type of guy. I've had great success (some might say luck) just using common sense in the past, but also have been bitten in the a$$ by some of my hair brained ideas. I'm also not very "algebraically inclined." Your HVAC buddy or mtfallsmikey might be of more help calculating if it will work or not. Luckily, if you break it down, these things are pretty simple animals and yours is certainly large enough to handle the task at hand. I don't think 6 GPM of 100 degree water coming into 400 gallons with a burn barrel that size is going to be a problem. You'll burn a little more wood, but it might be worth it for you to have a nice and toasty garage and garage floor.



That may work...keep in mind the water temp. for the radiant will be around 80-110 deg. Worth a try. All of the calculations I listed are common knowledge, and industry standards, I don't/won't do heat loss or floor calcs for people unless I can physically see the install, or some blueprints. It's really simple to do. Again, the main mistake both DIY'ers and OWB installers make IMHO is to pipe all of the HX's and/or an existing hydronic system in series. Each HX is series will see a progressivly lower supply temp. The primary/secondary method uses a primary loop, each HX,etc. is piped in a separate (secondary) loop, with a separate circulator and/or zone valve. This allows using a smaller primary circ.,less head to work against, more flow, and in general a very responsive system....Buy the book I mentioned here before, and all will be revealed. Should be required reading for all OWB owners.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 29, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> I think most people merge the OWB into their current heating system for cost reasons. Around here that means forced air the great majority of cases. In my case the house is fully and correctly ducted so the forced air works great. That is not always the case, lots of older houses around here never had proper ducting installed when central heat was installed many years ago so base boards might be a better way to go? I am going into year 4 with mine and on the coldest windiest day we have had so far my system still has not been even close to taxed for delivery of BTUs. I am very happy with my OWB/forced air setup.



:agree2:

Only thing is...80% of homes I've seen have crappy, undersized ductwork.....installing contractors using "rules of thumb" (aka SWAG)regardless of house design instead of actually figuring out how many BTU's and CFM of air of heating/cooling they actually need. When I was growing up and learning the trade, HWBB was the norm, forced air was for the smaller, lower-priced homes. I've installed many BB systems and personally think it is the best,most even heat you can have....as in all systems, if installed correctly.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 29, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> No splitter...I buy my wood 100$ a full cord cut split and delivered.
> I brush my own flue and the liner cost 500$.
> 
> I don't have a shop to heat or a garage, but when I build an attached garage my furncae will heat it and my home.
> ...



Now...for this post:

Keith, this does sound like a slam on OWB owners, and uncalled for IMO. 

Your Yukon HX's can rot out too...ask me how I know.
They can also generate a tremendous amount of creosote as well...
You have to deal with ashes too, just like any other wood/biomass appliance.
Glycol....With floor radiant systems, the loss is factored into system design. 
How do you operate the furnace blower when there is no power?...pray for gravity convection?
Generator...I like to run my well pump, lights as well as the OWB.


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## giXXer (Oct 29, 2009)

mtfallsmikey said:


> :agree2:
> 
> Only thing is...80% of homes I've seen have crappy, undersized ductwork.....installing contractors using "rules of thumb" (aka SWAG)regardless of house design instead of actually figuring out how many BTU's and CFM of air of heating/cooling they actually need. When I was growing up and learning the trade, HWBB was the norm, forced air was for the smaller, lower-priced homes. I've installed many BB systems and personally think it is the best,most even heat you can have....as in all systems, if installed correctly.



I agree! The best, most radiant, even heat available IMO. Can be quite expensive to purchase and install and is also pretty pricey to add central A/C due to the addition of a blower motor and duct work. Another disadvantage, and this is strictly MY OPINION, anything that carries water will eventually leak. I learned that from all of my years in Fire and Water damage restoration. I have seen a lot of damage and huge messes linked to improperly installed or frozen systems. And yes, I did just throw myself under the bus as I have 400 gallons of water waiting to flood my basement at the first hint of a leak. I have, however, limited the area of exposure to this problem to the basement mechanical room, not every room in the house like with baseboard heat.

I have also seen some very poorly installed duct work. When I was doing the fire and water damage restoration it naturally lead to the addition of duct cleaning equipment. I could not believe how many "hackers" there are in the industry calling themselves professionals that charge an arm and a leg for junky inefficient poorly installed HVAC systems. An actual professional may charge a little more upfront, but the savings will be realized in just a matter of a couple of years.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 29, 2009)

Geezer moment: In-floor radiant is best for comfort, better than BB. But, cast-iron BB is a close second....


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## Paul61 (Oct 29, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> How much does it cost to have a chimney built?
> 
> How much did your wood splitter cost you?
> 
> ...



Good one & rep worthy.....nothin like givin a salesmen a good kick in the stones!


Paul


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 30, 2009)

Paul61 said:


> Good one & rep worthy.....nothin like givin a salesmen a good kick in the stones!
> 
> 
> Paul



Always good to hear the Canadian perspective!


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## spj (Oct 31, 2009)

I get asked all the time why I don't get an OWB. I have a new highly insulated two story home in Maine that I designed a floor plan to heat with wood. I heat with a Hearthstone Mansfield. I burn 4 cords of wood starting in October and I finish burning in early May. I burn just over 300 gallons of oil a year, which provides all domestic hot water year round. In an app like mine, an OWB just isn't worth it. I can go away without fear of it freezeing and burn much less wood. Now change the situation to that of an older, less well insulated house without zone heating or a longer style house or a big ranch, and the OWB starts making a lot more sense. They have their place for sure and surely deliver a more balanced heat.


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## themaddhatter (Oct 31, 2009)

Yep, and in my case, a 1910 2-story balloon-framed farmhouse with some insulation in 2x4 walls, and a detached 3 bay garage/workshop, my homemade OWB fills the need very well. It is 16 years old, and I had to do some refurbing to it last year when I bought the house (maybe $200 and some welding time inside the firebox). I figure if I get a few more years out of it, I have designed a replacement for it. Just need to fab it up and drop it on.

Sure I burn a lot more wood, and I can't go anywhere for vacation without making arrangements. Can't anyways because I will come home to a lot of dead livestock.

I do have my house set up with an exchanger in the plenum of the furnace (forced air), so even when the OWB runs out of wood, the fuel oil furnace will keep the circulating water from freezing (unless it is SUPER COLD like -30F).

I try not to run the furnace without the OWB, as that can go through a tank a month in the icy grip of winter - that is $600-$700 a MONTH. I have $300 and my families time into cutting up all the wood I need for this season and part of next (kept my eyes out for deals, going to auctions, talking to arborists, etc).

Yeah you got to fill it, got to clean the chimney every few weeks, scoop out ashes, etc. But, if I don't have to spend $3K or more a year to heat my house, that is worth it to me. 

Would actually do some indoor wood burning, but my wife has allergies to the wood smoke over time. Loading the stove doesn't bother her, but being in it all day inside a house gives her puffy eyes and a snot nose.

I don't think any of them is a "superior" solution, but each is the ideal solution for individuals in their individual cases.


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 23, 2009)

Gixxer says... How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.


OK....it's all about the money...ya got me Gix old buddie..LOL
Say Gix...God is my driver and when I say something...I'm believing it.
Sounds to me like your questioning me.
I make the same amount of money either way you slice it around here.
Unless of coarse if I do not punch in and put in my day helping people.
I'm not for anything (stoves/furnaces) that burns wood.
I'm for efficient appliances that burn wood.
It can be an owb or a furnace or a stove, but I can see how you could assume.....


Mike....you bet our furnace can be problematic.
I see mis installs all of the time. I see mis use too.
Wet wood you name it.Oversized flues,contractors that do not install the furnace as per spec.
I also will say that having over 35 years of expierence building furnaces allows our company the hindsight to make changes in material to get the furnace to last longer like adding 304 grade stainless to the seconday ht. exchangers and beefing up the fireboxes, but I also know many customers have gotten over 30 years out of the old furnaces.
These are customers that took care of their furnace and operated it as intended.

I also know that if it is a mechanical thing...it will break down.There will be a failure rate.
To say it will last forever is a crock...we all know that.

Now we were talking differences.
I have pointed out negative things about boilers.
I believe at the end of the day an efficient warm air furnace properly ducted into the home with A/C and a hepa system is a much finer set up than an OWB with in floor heat.


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 23, 2009)

STATE OF NEW YORK
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
ELIOT SPITZER DIVISION OF PUBLIC ADVOCACY
Attorney General ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION BUREAU
August 11, 2005
VIA OVERNIGHT MAIL
The Honorable Stephen L. Johnson
Administrator, Environmental Protection Agency
Ariel Rios Building
1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20460
Re: Petition for rulemaking under 42 U.S.C. § 7411(b)(1)
Regarding Outdoor Wood Boilers
Dear Administrator Johnson:
The States of New York, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey
and Vermont, and the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management (NESCAUM)
hereby petition the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to use its authority under
section 111(b)(1) of the Clean Air Act (the “Act”), 42 U.S.C. § 7411(b)(1), to list outdoor wood
boilers (OWBs) as a category of stationary sources under section 111(b)(1)(A) and to
promulgate standards of performance for OWBs under 42 U.S.C. § 7411(b)(1)(B). In the
alternative, after listing OWBs as a category of stationary sources under section 111(b)(1)(A),
EPA could revise the existing standards for residential wood heaters, at 40 CFR §§ 60.530-
60.539b, to include standards for OWBs.
As explained in the attached report of the New York Attorney General’s Office,
Environmental Protection Bureau, entitled, Smoke Gets in Your Lungs: Outdoor Wood Boilers in
New York State (the “New York Report”), OWBs are becoming increasingly common in rural
and suburban towns and villages throughout much of the nation. Emissions of fine particulate
matter (particulate matter with a diameter less than 2.5 microns [PM 2.5]) and toxic materials
from OWBs exceed those from indoor wood stoves (called wood heaters by EPA), both on a perdevice
basis and in proportion to the energy created. Despite polluting at a significantly higher
rate than residential wood heaters, OWBs are exempt from the standard applicable to residential
wood heaters and are not required to meet any testing, performance, or emission standards.
Notable findings of the New York Report include:
• While advertised as a clean economical way to heat one’s house and water, OWBs may
be among the dirtiest and least economical modes of residential heating, especially when
improperly used;
Petition to EPA by NY, CT, MD, MA, MI, NJ, VT and NESCAUM
August 11, 2005
• Even when used properly, OWBs emit, on an average per hour basis, about 4 times as
much PM 2.5 as conventional wood stoves, about 12 times as much PM 2.5 as EPAcertified
wood stoves, 1000 times more PM 2.5 than oil furnaces, and 1800 times more
PM 2.5 than gas furnaces;
• When OWBs are used improperly to burn wet or treated wood, scrap, or garbage, they
generate even more smoke and emit additional toxic chemicals;
• The pollutants emitted by OWBs can cause or contribute to short-term health harms such
as eye, nose, throat, and lung irritation, coughing and shortness of breath, and long-term
health effects such as asthma, heart and lung disease, and cancer;
• The generally short chimneys and reduced draft of OWBs fail to disperse emissions
adequately and can cause smoky conditions at or near ground level;
• OWBs are generally more expensive to install than comparable heating sources using oil,
or gas, or indoor wood stoves, and may be more expensive to operate depending on the
availability and price of dry seasoned wood;
• OWBs do not currently have to meet federal or state performance emission standards;
• The absence of any federal regulations has led to various state and local efforts to
regulate OWBs.
Since the problems associated with OWBs are widespread and exist across much of the
northern U.S., it is sensible for the federal government to enact federal standards of
performance, as it has with respect to indoor wood heaters, so as to avoid the development of a
patchwork of state and local regulations.
Section 111(b)(1)(A) requires EPA to include in the listing of categories of stationary
sources under section 111 a category that “causes, or contributes significantly to, air pollution
which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health and welfare.” The findings in the
New York Report establish that OWBs should be listed. Accordingly, the EPA should
promulgate regulations for OWBs under section 111(b)(1)(B), establishing standards of
performance that reflect the degree of emission limitation achievable through the best system of
emission reduction that has been adequately demonstrated. 42 U.S.C. § 7411(a)(1). Consistent
with the general framework of the Act, such federal regulations should serve as a “floor,”
allowing states or municipalities to enact more stringent regulations as necessary to combat
particularized local air quality problems.
The time has come for EPA to regulate emissions from OWBs in order to protect public
health and the environment. Therefore, please consider this letter to be a formal request pursuant
Petition to EPA by NY, CT, MD, MA, MI, NJ, VT and NESCAUM
August 11, 2005
to the Administrative Procedure Act, 5 U.S.C. § 553(e), for a rulemaking to list OWBs as a
category of stationary sources and to establish standards for emissions from new OWBs.
Sincerely,
ELIOT SPITZER
Attorney General
State of New York
On behalf of:
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL
Attorney General
State of Connecticut
KENDL P. PHILBRICK
Secretary
Maryland Department of the Environment
J. JOSEPH CURRAN, JR.
Attorney General of Maryland
THOMAS F. REILLY
Attorney General
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
STEVEN E. CHESTER
Director
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality
PETER C. HARVEY
Attorney General
State of New Jersey
WILLIAM H. SORRELL
Attorney General
State of Vermont
ARTHUR N. MARIN
Executive Director
Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use
Management (NESCAUM)


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## toyfarm (Nov 23, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> People touting the wood usage of an OWB is exagerated. I used the example of miller1. He lives in roughly the same climate and uses nowhere near 15-18 cords of wood per heating season. Other OWB owners have chimed in on this thread claimiming that they use nowhere near the amount of wood that nonOWB users are claiming......That is an exageration!
> 
> Stories of huge gut wrenching clouds of smoke pouring out of the chimneys is an exageration.
> 
> ...




Amen Brother, I would like to add more to this, but in no way could i get the point across any better!

+++


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## toyfarm (Nov 23, 2009)

After reading nine pages of somewhat bitter disagreements between woodburners...(I assume we're all wood burners?) If all of us OWB guys add a 10 foot extension to our units we would have half the arguments we have on here!



Sarcasm here... so your twenty five foot chimney doesn't bother your neighbors a half mile down the road, but my twelve foot tall chimney cannot reach the changes in altitude it needs before reaching the same distance.



I am in my second year using my OWB, but am still not convinced that it was the way to go!

Not because it burns too much wood! It is comparable to other wood sources i've used in the past

Not because it smokes too much...The last Ashley wood stove i had definately smoked more than my OWB

It is mainly beacuse of the cost... I have close to 12,000 total in my unit, when i could have had two real nice wood furnaces... one in the basement of the house and one in the garage for around 5,000 that would have done the same job (minus the free hot water). 

If I had to burn wood in the house again (living qtrs./ not the basement) there would be no second thoughts, due to having a family that seems to be plagued with wood smoke allergies.

Overall I am very happy with my OWB, even though it's only eighty feet from the house, my wife and 3 kids never complain about the smoke and neither do my neighbors (though there are none close)

I do burn green wood, punk wood, rotten wood, seasoned wood, dried wood, occasional trash, and about anything outside of tires that will burn. (last time i checked in my area of the country it's still legal to have burn barrels (trash),
why not do it in a safer more contained area, like the (OWB)?

Like I said, I am not totally convinced I made the right choice, but so far am very happy with the OWB heating a 200 year old completely uninsulated solid brick home. Coincidently, when i bought it there was atleast one fire place per room...I know for a fact i'm burnin' less wood than that, while at the same time heating my uninsulated 18'x73' work shop with an 18' peak ceiling and my water!


One last thought...How can anyone compare any of these heating sources?
For example...
I currently heat with the biggest OWB Burnrite offers...
What if I changed to the smallest?
What if i went with a Central Boiler or a Cadillac, or Timberwolf etc. in any of their variety of sizes?
What if I heat with a wood stove and gas or electric or oil or etc?
Or any combination of the above?
The list just goes on and on!

We truly will never have an answer to all our questions unless we could take a single house under the same circumstances and compare each and every heat source available along with a combination of heat sources!

This is truly a comparison that will never be answered to the depth that we all desire!


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 24, 2009)

Good post ToyFarm.
It's obvious that some feel strongly about their opinions. 
Properly done there are several methods we all can burn wood to heat our homes.
True....life's expierences shape our ideals...opinions...I do believe we all are in the same boat.
Having a discussion is great ie...less the attacks.....maybe next year when the owb vs stove thread comes up we can all play a cleaner game.


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## giXXer (Nov 27, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:


> Gixxer says... How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.
> 
> 
> OK....it's all about the money...ya got me Gix old buddie..LOL
> ...




Well, obviously someone is still stewing. Nothing like waiting a month...taking some quotes out of context...throwing a couple more jabs...taking the religious pulpit...then putting a spin on it saying hopefully in the future we can have a "cleaner" discussion without "attacks." I'll keep my religious beliefs to myself, or express them in an appropriate forum, not a wood burning forum. God is your driver...when YOU say something YOU believe it. Is that because you believe God speaks through you or are you contradicting your previous post explaining how un-informed you are about other heating devices? I do not argue the fact that you believe everything you say. However, you were the one to point out several weeks ago at the beginning of this thread that you don't have all the information about your competition. You, yourself, were the one to post that you aren't informed! I simply pointed out the lack of validity to one of your arguments (way, way back), the fact it wasn't apples to apples, your motivations in your recommendations on wood stoves, the fact (of your own admittance) you are not knowledgeable in the industry other than Yukon stoves, and asked a couple of simple questions.

As far as the statistics, we all know how easily they can be skewed to one side or the other. I do, however, believe there needs to be some type of regulation on OWB's. People have been abusing their privilege with OWB's, upsetting neighbors, and polluting a world we all have to share. With regulations and awareness comes innovation and invention. Wood stoves have not always been EPA regulated and now that they are look at the advancements in efficiency and pollution control. The same will follow in the case of OWB's. They keep making the mouse trap better. They have to, after all, the politicians, in reality, want us to continue to rely on fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, look at where their money is invested and who pays for their retirement homes, or should I say, mansions/ranches.

Well, there you go, all set-up for another offensive. Since I don't have to drag any wood inside my house I've got some extra time, I'll be right here waiting for the next attack. Is it going to take another month for your pressure relief valve to open? It's a comfy 73 degrees in the house and I'm smiling...no bugs crawling on the walls or eating my home...no smoke smell in the house...no ash floating around to irritate my newborn's delicate throat and lungs, no risk of a chimney fire, and since I burn dry wood and have a catalyst stack there isn't even any smoke coming out of the boiler.

Keep regurgitating the same opinions over and over and over. Keep up with your crappie little comments and crappie little jabs. Then take the high road...who me?...I'm religious and I believe everything I say. Kiss a few butts to polish the post off and everything is "all good." We all know you believe a warm air furnace properly ducted, etc. is better than an OWB with in-floor heat. Your sales pitch has been heard over and over and over throughout this thread.

BTW, please do not infer in any manner, joking or otherwise, that we are "buddies." I could tell it was simply a mis-guided attempt at humor and sarcasm, but I do not want to have anything to do with you. Since your obvious affiliation with Yukon, I don't want to have anything to do with them either. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe you should have to advertise through arboristsite appropriately like all the other advertisors, not in an informative thread knocking the competition driving home your sales pitch to further your own/Yukon's sales and financial position.


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## Techstuf (Nov 27, 2009)

Personally, I see the OWB vs. Wood stove debate as more of a 'class minded' issue.

You've got your class of people who are of perhaps more limited means, perhaps accustomed to living small. Those able and willing to apply small solutions to small problems (unfortunately sometimes even large problems). Those who just like to be as efficient as possible while saving money wherever and whenever they can, and/or who enjoy the wood experience, heating efficiency, working with nature, etc...

And that class of folk, who are of perhaps less limited means, perhaps more accustomed to living large. Those able and willing to apply large solutions to large problems (unfortunately sometimes even small problems). Those who like to enjoy the wood experience to a more limited degree, and perhaps save money over the long haul, having nature work for them, etc...

As a burner of wood my whole life, subjective is it may be, that has simply been my experience.


Either way, we certainly seem to have more in common than indifference.



Blessings in Yeshua


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## Windwalker7 (Nov 27, 2009)

giXXer said:


> Well, obviously someone is still stewing. Nothing like waiting a month...taking some quotes out of context...throwing a couple more jabs...taking the religious pulpit...then putting a spin on it saying hopefully in the future we can have a "cleaner" discussion without "attacks." I'll keep my religious beliefs to myself, or express them in an appropriate forum, not a wood burning forum. God is your driver...when YOU say something YOU believe it. Is that because you believe God speaks through you or are you contradicting your previous post explaining how un-informed you are about other heating devices? I do not argue the fact that you believe everything you say. However, you were the one to point out several weeks ago at the beginning of this thread that you don't have all the information about your competition. You, yourself, were the one to post that you aren't informed! I simply pointed out the lack of validity to one of your arguments (way, way back), the fact it wasn't apples to apples, your motivations in your recommendations on wood stoves, the fact (of your own admittance) you are not knowledgeable in the industry other than Yukon stoves, and asked a couple of simple questions.
> 
> As far as the statistics, we all know how easily they can be skewed to one side or the other. I do, however, believe there needs to be some type of regulation on OWB's. People have been abusing their privilege with OWB's, upsetting neighbors, and polluting a world we all have to share. With regulations and awareness comes innovation and invention. Wood stoves have not always been EPA regulated and now that they are look at the advancements in efficiency and pollution control. The same will follow in the case of OWB's. They keep making the mouse trap better. They have to, after all, the politicians, in reality, want us to continue to rely on fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, look at where their money is invested and who pays for their retirement homes, or should I say, mansions/ranches.
> 
> ...






Amen!!!


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## Paul61 (Nov 28, 2009)

giXXer said:


> Well, obviously someone is still stewing. Nothing like waiting a month...taking some quotes out of context...throwing a couple more jabs...taking the religious pulpit...then putting a spin on it saying hopefully in the future we can have a "cleaner" discussion without "attacks." I'll keep my religious beliefs to myself, or express them in an appropriate forum, not a wood burning forum. God is your driver...when YOU say something YOU believe it. Is that because you believe God speaks through you or are you contradicting your previous post explaining how un-informed you are about other heating devices? I do not argue the fact that you believe everything you say. However, you were the one to point out several weeks ago at the beginning of this thread that you don't have all the information about your competition. You, yourself, were the one to post that you aren't informed! I simply pointed out the lack of validity to one of your arguments (way, way back), the fact it wasn't apples to apples, your motivations in your recommendations on wood stoves, the fact (of your own admittance) you are not knowledgeable in the industry other than Yukon stoves, and asked a couple of simple questions.
> 
> As far as the statistics, we all know how easily they can be skewed to one side or the other. I do, however, believe there needs to be some type of regulation on OWB's. People have been abusing their privilege with OWB's, upsetting neighbors, and polluting a world we all have to share. With regulations and awareness comes innovation and invention. Wood stoves have not always been EPA regulated and now that they are look at the advancements in efficiency and pollution control. The same will follow in the case of OWB's. They keep making the mouse trap better. They have to, after all, the politicians, in reality, want us to continue to rely on fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, look at where their money is invested and who pays for their retirement homes, or should I say, mansions/ranches.
> 
> ...



Rep, rep, & MORE REP!


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## mtfallsmikey (Nov 30, 2009)

opcorn:


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 30, 2009)

I quess I should respond....
This was a this vs that thread.
It's too bad some folks took this thread personal to make attacks.
I will continue to be a voice for warm air instead of hot water heating.
There are many folks wanting to hear both sides of the debate.
It is unfortunate that certain folks think that just because I rep for a company that what I'm saying is motovated by money.....it's not....I really believe in what I've said through my own expierences not what some gov.agency has said via some report. Although I posted a few of these items thinking that it may be more believeable if someone else had said it like the Gov...but as some have said that doesn't hold water either.

A good friend once said "you'll never defeat the online dragon"...he was right.
When anyone can plop down in front of their putor and type anything they want...you just can't defend against the ignorance or arogance.

Oh if you want reps for kicking the stones of a salesman....you can have the thousands I have if it'll make you feel like the bigger man.


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## slipknot91 (Dec 1, 2009)

God!!!!! Somebody owes me that half an hour of my life back. Can't believe I read this whole thread. 

I have a FIsher in the basement with a fabricated Plenum over it. I ties into my cold air return in the basement directly above the stove. The heat goes through the ductwork into my den and them circulated by two 52'' fans throughout the 1552 square foot house. We have to close the bedrooms during the day so it dosen't get too hot in there but the kitchen is a bit cool since it is an addition off the back of the house. 

I will be purchasing a hotblast in the spring when tax season comes around and getting rid of my oil fired furnace and replacing it with an airhandler and new heat pump. That will be the best fit for me since it never gets below single digit temps here in southern VA and I cant afford a boiler. I always wanted one but I cant justify buying one for now. I do want the flexibility that the furnace will give me so I have to side with the fish man on this one. Although I will not buy one of his furnaces because I cant afford it right yet. I think the tractor supply hotblast or the 1600 dollar clayton will be just fine. 

You guys argue just as much as the guys on the automotive forums I frequent. We are all doing the same thing here.... Sticking it to the man!!!!!! Please wipe the sand out of your vaginas and get on with the wood burning.


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## John D (Dec 1, 2009)

slipknot91 said:


> You guys argue just as much as the guys on the automotive forums I frequent. We are all doing the same thing here.... Sticking it to the man!!!!!! Please wipe the sand out of your vaginas and get on with the wood burning.



Priceless! Too funny man,you hit it right on the head,bunch of crybabys posting on this thread. I just about spit out my coffee when I read this post!


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## mtfallsmikey (Dec 2, 2009)

opcorn:


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## Blazin (Dec 2, 2009)

LMFBO!!! :check:


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## giXXer (Dec 2, 2009)

"A good friend once said "you'll never defeat the online dragon"...he was right.
When anyone can plop down in front of their putor and type anything they want...you just can't defend against the ignorance or arogance." Quote from crappiekeith.

Ignorant and arrogant? My thoughts exactly! Your friend has certainly read your posts. 

I spent a little time the other day typing that post hoping to drive home my point. Obviously reading and comprehension are not your strong subjects Keith. I won't waste the valuable time of the other member's playing "devil's advocate" any longer. We all know what our individual preferences are (even though, as I have mentioned previously, I still own a wood stove and love it!) and it depends completely on application, intended use, and budget.

Since the label "crybaby" has been thrown out there I'll keep this short and concise to not bore anyone with a long, drawn out post: if it looks like BS, smells like BS, and sticks to my boot like BS, I'll call it out hoping no one else steps in it. And finally, as my father told me years ago: "beware of the individual that is quick to tell you how religious they are, he is simply a salesman establishing trust prior to emptying your wallet as a truely religious person won't have to mention it, you'll already know by their actions."

Hey MtfallsMikey, can you pass the popcorn, I'm spent.


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## slipknot91 (Dec 2, 2009)

John D said:


> Priceless! Too funny man,you hit it right on the head,bunch of crybabys posting on this thread. I just about spit out my coffee when I read this post!



Yea, it is a public forum though so opinions will fly. I wrote the post with a smile on my face so I hope no one was offended. Just trying to lighten things up a bit. Maybe there needs to be a ____talking section in the forum like some of the others I'm on so everyone can let it all out. Not for the faint of heart to enter and not for thin skinned people either.


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## mtfallsmikey (Dec 3, 2009)

*Just for giXXer:*

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## giXXer (Dec 3, 2009)

mtfallsmikey said:


> opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:



Thank you, thank you.


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## giXXer (Dec 3, 2009)

slipknot91 said:


> Yea, it is a public forum though so opinions will fly. I wrote the post with a smile on my face so I hope no one was offended. Just trying to lighten things up a bit. Maybe there needs to be a ____talking section in the forum like some of the others I'm on so everyone can let it all out. Not for the faint of heart to enter and not for thin skinned people either.



Not at all! Sand in my vag makes me irritable!  Sometimes I just need a reminder to keep up with the hygiene so I stay fresh and happy.

OOPS! Well well well! Not sand at all, it's sawdust! How'd that get there? :monkey:


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## Coldfront (Dec 3, 2009)

I have a inside basement wood furnace forced air I keep about 2 months worth of stacked wood in the corner of the basement the mess is not that bad and my house does not smell like smoke. I do build start a lot of fires because I let it go out a lot. I don't buy into the hot water argument, keeping a fire going 24/7 all fall, winter, and spring, just so you can say you have free hot water doesn't make sense. Check out a on demand hot water heater they don't cost that much. Seriously how much hot water do you use per day. I have about a 1200 sq ft house and use about 6-7 cords per year and heat with wood only, I also live in NW Wisconsin where we have very cold winters. My vote is for inside wood furnace. I like to sit in the basement and have a beer and watch the fire once in a while, when I have a good fire going I can have the furnace door open and no smoke escapes, next best thing to a fireplace.


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## CrappieKeith (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm joining the peanut gallery....where's that popcorn?opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## bowtechmadman (Dec 3, 2009)

Hell I don't make sense very often...probably why I burn wood year around for the hot water.
Popcorn please.


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## Bcat22 (Dec 3, 2009)

i'll be the odd ball here and say i would rather have both. 

I used a brunco stove in my old house, until the house burned down ( in the summer, not related to the stove!). when we built the new house, i decided to keep the mess outside and bought a Woodmaster 4400. I love the fact that it heats my water, and the fact that i'm not packing wood in the house is nice, and the consistency of the heat throughout the house is nice.
That being said, i miss my stove. I miss coming in from the cold and warming up next to the fire. not to mention the fact that i could keep the house warm if the power goes out. We lost power last winter for almost a week and i had to run a generator for long stretches to keep the house warm.

Don't get me wrong, i'll never give up my OWB, but i think if i can come up with the cash next summer i'm going to buy a stove for the house.


little side note for ya..... the fire in the old house started in the room next to my stove. i had full intentions of re-building the stove for use in my new house. it was the old school Brunco that weighed a ton and was made right. When they leveled what was left of the house, i had the crew set the stove off to the side with their track-hoe. two days later, before i could rent a lift truck to move it, someone stole it:censored don't know how). if i get to buy a stove, i'm going to look for an old one like it, it never let me down.


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## wkpoor (Dec 3, 2009)

OK I didn't take all day to read the thousands of previous posts so hope I don't repeat something here. I heat my house from the basement with a stove. Maybe not the most effecient means but it keeps our open floor plan decent and we spend most of our time in the basement in the winter anyhow. But here is the kicker for me...my indoor stove will still heat the house when the electric goes off in an icestorm. 
The other reason for me is I don't like the thought of spending 6-10thousand dollars on an OWB and then get hurt and can't physically operate it anymore or cut wood and have to buy it. At that point the saving is gone and/or I've got a very expensive boat anchor in the backyard. Now if an OWB cost similar to regular furnace I would gamble on it but not for 2-3xs the cost. I would say if you can heat your house on 150.00 or less per month then you don't need an OWB. Put a stove in the house, enjoy some warm and save a little money. The worst that can happen is you go back to the wall and turn on the furnace again.


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## Scootermsp (Dec 3, 2009)

I think they both suck! I'd rather wear shorts and flip-flops year round in a tropical climate.


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## dkinpa (Dec 4, 2009)

I looked into both the OWB and indoor and decided for a number of reasons to go with the indoor. First and foremost was cost, I already had a very good chimney with an outlet into the basement and easy outside access to bring in wood. So I bought a Clayton at Tractor Supply for $1800 as opposed to the several thousand $'s for an OWB and installation. Efficiency and smoke as mentioned many times here before were also factors.
After 4 years of using the Clayton I could not be happier! I heat 3,000 sq ft with the stove hooked into the duct work and a slow recirc fan on the main furnace and I keep the house at 70 to 75 degrees all winter and very, very rairly use gas. I like going down to the basement and looking at my nice neat stack of well seasoned wood and feeling the wamth of the stove....probably my favorite room in the house.
I have found that burning wood is a science. I have 96 acres here in Western PA and I choose different wood for different times of the year and mix and match during colder times and warmer times. It ahs become a great hobby to perfect my skills and if I were outside I don't think I would have as much fun playing with wood mixtures and air flow to get just the right combo to keep my family so comfy. You know what they say.....happy wife happy life!
Just my thoughts.


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