# gimmie the money, I dont care about your trees!



## arbor dad (Mar 31, 2006)

post pics and share stories of things that piss you off in your town.
1) so called tree service helped a customer out by taking care of his bulging side walk problem by grinding those pesky roots down on a stately Silver Maple, don't mind the fact that it was a city tree and you need to be a certified arborist and have a permit to do anything to it. Roots are highly over rated anyways. We were contracted to remove it, a shame indeed.
2) a tree services idea of pruning, on mars?


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## coveredinsap (Apr 1, 2006)

I must be missing something....how exactly is that a 'city tree'? Not that I condone the root grinding (to the contrary) but, generally speaking ....if that tree is on a regular single-family-home lot....on the easement between the street and the sidewalk it is indeed the homeowner's tree. The easement means that the city has the right to maintain their hookups there, not that they actually own the property or the tree. It doesn't even matter if they (the city) plant the tree...that still doesn't make them the legal owner of it.

Do some homeowners relinquish responsibility of the easement to the city? Sure they do. But I certainly wouldn't.

If it's on condo or other 'common area' property then it's generally owned by the homeowner's association.

The only way the city 'owns it' is if it's on actual city-owned property, not simply an easement for utilities.

At least ...that is my understanding of property law speaking as a homeowner, not a lawyer.

Regardless, it's a shame what they did to that tree. I've got similar neighbors.


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## clearance (Apr 1, 2006)

Many times I have done treework, utility or to widen a road, put in pipelines, etc. and had homeowners come out and freak, only to find that thier property does not go to the sidewalk. I love it when someone is really ignorant and abusive to us and then we see the road building foreman along with the surveyor tell them where they stand, exactly. One guy was telling us you'd better just take a few branches of this tree, blah, blah and then we nuked "his' front yard and later in the day a hoe ripped down his fence that was not on his property. Easment on a property means that it is owned by someone else, not the property owner, that it is why it is called an easment.


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## treeseer (Apr 1, 2006)

clearance said:


> I love it when someone is really ignorant and abusive to us and then we see the road building foreman along with the surveyor tell them where they stand, exactly. One guy was telling us you'd better just take a few branches of this tree, blah, blah and then we nuked "his' front yard



So that's where you get your jollies, I understand. Nuking and puking and invalidly rebuking. I don't get mine from watching an ignorant treecudder dig waaayyyy deep into his pocket to pay a tree owner for illegal and unnecessary damage done to a tree. Whether it's by neglect or by willful trespass or by substandard practices like spiking up a tree to prune it.:censored: 

It's a tough way to learn but sometimes it's the only way.

o and yes a street tree can be the city's to regulate, or not; this varies widely depending on local laws and ordinances.


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## clearance (Apr 1, 2006)

treeseer said:


> So that's where you get your jollies, I understand. Nuking and puking and invalidly rebuking. I don't get mine from watching an ignorant treecudder dig waaayyyy deep into his pocket to pay a tree owner for illegal and unnecessary damage done to a tree. Whether it's by neglect or by willful trespass or by substandard practices like spiking up a tree to prune it.:censored:
> 
> It's a tough way to learn but sometimes it's the only way.
> 
> o and yes a street tree can be the city's to regulate, or not; this varies widely depending on local laws and ordinances.


We were removing trees on behaf of the city so they could lay a bigger water line to serve a growing population and put in a new sidewalk at the same time. And, yes I howled with glee when we and the hoe op nuked what did not belong to the man who was so ignorant to us. So many times people, like you, think that everything revolves around trees that are not thiers. They complain about traffic jams but do not want trees removed to widen the road to four lanes, they complain when they power goes out on a cold stormy night cause it got wasted by a tree that should have been cut down years ago but wasn't because of whiners like them. And so it goes, suck it up, mind your own business, Treehugger.


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## treeseer (Apr 1, 2006)

clearance said:


> So many times people, like you, think that everything revolves around trees that are not thiers. Treehugger.



Why Clarence, thanks for the compliment, but I don't think that I hug trees as much as you, because I don't climb them with spikes.:monkey: 


It's sad to see people get joy out of killing trees that are not theirs. And a little less sad when they pay through all :blush: their orifices for doing so illegally.


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## clearance (Apr 1, 2006)

I can tell you don't climb with spurs cause when you climb with spurs you don't hug the tree, you hold your lanyard with both hands. Treehugger in your case means someone who wants an omelette but cries when the cook breaks some eggs. It is not a complement, maybe now it is to you types, kind of like the homos are now using the word queer. And the Black folks use the N-word to talk to each other. Whatever.


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## arbor dad (Apr 1, 2006)

clearance, look up in that little white box called the address bar...did you notice it says arboristsite.com not nuke -em puke-em and whac -em down.com?


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## clearance (Apr 1, 2006)

Thanks Dad, arborists cut down trees, remove them at times do they not? It says right on my trade certificate, certified utility arborist. So I am an arborist, but because of all the non-working arborists I have met, I do not like to be called an arborist, its not a good name. Anyways, back to the topic at hand, people are often suprised that thier front yard isn't as big as they think it is. Furthermore, if branches or roots come onto your property you can, legally HACK them off, at the property line.


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## arbor dad (Apr 2, 2006)

I really don't know about your local laws, but if a homeowner asked me to hack off the living roots right at the property line here where I live...well bend over and wait for the fines,lawsuits and ridicule from my peers in the arborist community for being a hack. You have the legal right as a homeowner on private land to prune limbs off a neighbor's tree as long as you don't prune so severely as to damage or kill the tree. Nobody has a legal right to do that. Thats all I'm saying. yes as a certified arborist I remove trees, but I am also held to a higher level of standards and responsibility by the community and home owners to practice ethical tree care. We have street tree ordinances to preserve and protect street trees (which by the way are in the public right of way) from hacks. If pruning was allowed like the pictues I posted then in 10 to 15 years the beautiful tree lined steets that make this a great place to live would be a ugly bug infested hazzard tree wasteland. Food for thought.


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## clearance (Apr 2, 2006)

arbor dad said:


> I really don't know about your local laws, but if a homeowner asked me to hack off the living roots right at the property line here where I live...well bend over and wait for the fines,lawsuits and ridicule from my peers in the arborist community for being a hack. You have the legal right as a homeowner on private land to prune limbs off a neighbor's tree as long as you don't prune so severely as to damage or kill the tree. Nobody has a legal right to do that. Thats all I'm saying. yes as a certified arborist I remove trees, but I am also held to a higher level of standards and responsibility by the community and home owners to practice ethical tree care. We have street tree ordinances to preserve and protect street trees (which by the way are in the public right of way) from hacks. If pruning was allowed like the pictues I posted then in 10 to 15 years the beautiful tree lined steets that make this a great place to live would be a ugly bug infested hazzard tree wasteland. Food for thought.


Here no one is allowed to do anything to city/muni trees, thats just fine with me. I am so glad I live whats that country song-a thousand miles from nowwhere, away from all the treehuggers, busybodies, dogooders, whiners and so on, it got to me just trying to do my job, start up a saw and they come running, now the only people I see are loggers, great people, smile and wave.


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## arbor dad (Apr 2, 2006)

Sounds like your in a spot that makes you feel at home. I have alot of respect for utility arborist and understand the need and appreciate their service as long as they respect our community and make a decent effort to do proper v pruning and try to find laterals when they prune right of way trees.we have to look at them every day. The only people I see are urban foresters,fellow arborist and neighbors in my town,great people, we smile and wave too. Thanks for your point of view on this thread. Stay safe.


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## clearance (Apr 2, 2006)

You too, remember its not the fall that gets you, its the sudden stop! Take care.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 2, 2006)

clearance said:


> Easment on a property means that it is owned by someone else, not the property owner, that it is why it is called an easment.




Nope. Easement doesn't change ownership, it just transfers SOME rights to do CERTAIN things. What rights and which things depends on the terms of the easement, and it's all spelled out in the legal documents which define the easement. No document, no easement.


Of course, fat lot of good it does you to own the property out to the centerline of the street, when the easement spells out that the city can do pretty much anything they want with that part of the property.


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## coveredinsap (Apr 2, 2006)

> Easment on a property means that it is owned by someone else, not the property owner, that it is why it is called an easment.



As the poster above said, this is patently false. I hope the homeowner whose yard and fence you gleefully tore up while telling them it "wasn't their property" got a lawyer.


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## clearance (Apr 2, 2006)

coveredinsap said:


> As the poster above said, this is patently false. I hope the homeowner whose yard and fence you gleefully tore up while telling them it "wasn't their property" got a lawyer.


Tard, the road building foreman had the surveyor with him, when I drive by there now the road is four lanes and the new sidewalk is in "his" yard. And so it is for the approx. two or so miles in what were once lawns and part of peoples yards, or so they thought. Stick to what you know, don't speculate.


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## treeseer (Apr 2, 2006)

clearance said:


> Tard, the road building foreman had the surveyor with him, Stick to what you know, don't speculate.



Smart you had those who knew with you when you cut. In many cases people cut without knowing, and pay dearly for their speculation. That's when we say, "Bend over, boy!"


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## Ax-man (Apr 2, 2006)

Arbor dad,

Yes, it is shame when trees and sidewalks get into conflict. I have seen our city guys do the same thing, sometimes worse than that, they cut a section right out of the main stem it the flare is in the way of a new sidewalk on a bigger tree and do the same thing to roots on smaller trees. Job security for the city that does their own tree work solve one problem for the short term and create another in the long term.

Doesn't anyone see the big picture here and what is going on. It is probaly for the better that this tree was removed as those roots were not heathy looking anyway, decay below ground level was already in place and other roots were diseased, the tree was bound to fail anyway in the future or decline to die a slow death. Now we go and add insult to injury by cutting the roots back to nothing creating a future windfall. 

That looks like a Norway Maple to me.


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## treeseer (Apr 2, 2006)

Larry I couldn't see that brown color that indicated decay; if it's there I'd suspect the last sidewalk job. Your city's version of job security may be an open door to a huge lo$$; see the attached story of an NC town.


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## Ax-man (Apr 2, 2006)

If I remember right you were the CA on that one. You had that up at the old ISA site a few years back, I was the internet arborist newbie at the time, found it interesting the discussion that followed on city's responsibilties and the therory on due care. That discussion taught me that there is a much higher level to climb up to in regards to being an arborist 

I put a bug in our cities ear a long time ago about what would happen if they continued on their present path of sidewalk replacement. It is just cheaper and easier to mutalate trees than it is to remove them or rethink a different alternative to concrete sidewalks and forms. The trees don't die so they don't see the harm. Ever feel like an Old Testement prophet in situations like this, one who crys in the wilderness, (some thing like that) everyone is an expert but the person who sees and works with trees on a first hand every day basis.

I got a little wild with the paint brush, try the pic again, send to paint or whatever program you have and magnify it if it doesn't get blurry. I circled the area that looks like the first stages of decay, it has a white, punky, grainy look to it, looks like decay to me, Phytopthora (?) those are not healthy roots by a long shot. I tried to do a closeup and post it but no luck on my part, I don't know how some people work that little trick, guess I'll have to play around more on the computer

Larry


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## treeseer (Apr 3, 2006)

"at the old ISA site a few years back, That discussion taught me that there is a much higher level to climb up to in regards to being an arborist"

Me too. the backandforth with Scott Cullen on the details of due care was a priceless learning experience, 

"I put a bug in our cities ear a long time ago about what would happen if they continued on their present path of sidewalk replacement. Ever feel like an Old Testement prophet in situations like this"

O yes, but I learned to cry more calmly and clearly and it made a little difference. I went before the town council and gave them all a copy of a picture of a car with a tree on it and details on the multimillion dollar payout. 

I also gave the pw dept a copy of the book on Reducing Infrastructure Damage. ($20--good investment in PR if nothing else) Now see below; the city is having a workshop on tree-friendly sidewalks.

Trees Vs. Infrastructure 
Dr. Ed Gilman of the University of Florida will be speaking at 
Durant Nature Park in Campbell Lodge. 
Dr. Gilman will discuss roots and infrastructure/solutions for broken sidewalks, 
reducing tree conflicts for new construction, and Urban designs compatible with 
successful urban forestry. The City of Durham will present a case study of their 
downtown tree installation project.
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/people/gilman.htm

On the 17th will be a ISA certification exam.


Workshop Schedule MAY 16th

8:00-9:00am	Sign-in & coffee 
9:00-9:15	Welcome: by Parks Superintendent Wayne Schindler
9:15-9:30	Introduction: by Raleigh Urban Forester Alex Johnson 
9:30-10:45	Dr. Ed Gilman Roots and Infrastructure/Solutions for broken sidewalks 

10:45-11:00	Break 

11:00-12:00	Dr. Ed Gilman Reducing tree conflicts for new construction 

12:00-1:00 Lunch 

1:00-2:15	Dr. Ed Gilman Urban designs compatible with successful urban forestry 

2:15-2:30	Break 

2:30-3:30 City of Durham: Case Study -Downtown tree installation


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## arbor dad (Apr 3, 2006)

*treesuer and axman,*

Thanks for your input on the roots, just to revisit a few facts; property owner of tri-plex living far away in california hires stumpgrinding service to grind roots , the city had no part in that. and its a sugar maple, my typo.


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## treeseer (Apr 3, 2006)

Is Jim Flott still the city arborist there?


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## arbor dad (Apr 3, 2006)

*new city arborist*

No Treeseur,he left about a year ago or so and has his own consulting company now. He is still very active in green affairs and I believe is the director of education for the pacific northwest isa chapter. Jeff Perry is the new city arborist.


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## treeseer (Apr 4, 2006)

arbor dad said:


> No Treeseur,he left about a year ago or so and has his own consulting company now.



Why am i not surprised. The muni world can be very mentally confining. Some of the ones who choose it for life have a rare combination of arrogance and ignorance. Others are quality people who manage to stay on, under the right administration and job description.

I like your spelling btw.


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## Lumberjacked (Apr 4, 2006)

Clearence, Do you at all care about trees? I will be the first one here to tell a hippie to go eat Shart but, I by no means condone hacks doing things like this to trees. Trees are one of a citys and homeowners most valuable resource, ie. they should be protected!


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## arbor dad (Apr 4, 2006)

*treeseer,*

ha... yeah I catch it now, sorry. Call me what you want, just not late for dinner right?


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## treeseer (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Lumberjacked, I'm a hippie, in the original sense of the term; have been for 40 years. What was it you wanted me to eat?

arbordad, I thought the addition of the u was intentional, to match the last 3 letters of my real name.

Is your name Claire Voyant?


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## coveredinsap (Apr 4, 2006)

> Hey Lumberjacked, I'm a hippie, in the original sense of the term; have been for 40 years.



Good. We need more people like you to counter the currently popular trend of raping and plundering the environment for short term gain.


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## Gologit (Apr 4, 2006)

coveredinsap said:


> Good. We need more people like you to counter the currently popular trend of raping and plundering the environment for short term gain.


 
Does that mean you're not if favor of logging? Or loggers? How about clearcutting? Burn salvage?


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## clearance (Apr 4, 2006)

coveredinsap said:


> Good. We need more people like you to counter the currently popular trend of raping and plundering the environment for short term gain.


Self rightoeus do-gooders, treehuggers such as yourself should have your power disconnected, tear down your house, replant the lot with natural plants/trees and then return yourself to the earth. If you want to do something good that is, other wise you are a hypocrite, because you consume and use resources, everyday, that are made possible by resource workers, get lost.


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## treeseer (Apr 4, 2006)

Is your "resource work" sustainable?

Will your grandchildren look at your life and thank you for trying to leave the world a better place, or curse you for leaving them a hellish mess?

Nothing else matters.


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## clearance (Apr 4, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Is your "resource work" sustainable?
> 
> Will your grandchildren look at your life and thank you for trying to leave the world a better place, or curse you for leaving them a hellish mess?
> 
> Nothing else matters.


Don't have any kids, will never have any grand children, by not bringing more people into this world I have saved lots of resources, sustainable or not. I work to preserve riparian zones in logging areas, is logging sustainable, I guess the fact that many places have been logged twice and some three times means yes. The fact is we all consume unsustainable resources to live, all of us, Treeseer you too. So think about that the next time you want to rant and say how bad resource extraction is. Like I keep saying, you want an omellette but you don't want any eggs broken, impossible.


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## treeseer (Apr 4, 2006)

Clearance, even if you don't have a parent's perspective, try looking through the eyes of a kid in the year 2106, and ask the same questions.

" The fact is we all consume unsustainable resources to live, all of us,"

That's some omniscience you got there podner. Please let us know what unsustainable resources we consume, so we can work on switching over to sustainables.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 5, 2006)

In 2016 it will be required that your treeman be A C.A. or Certified Arborist.

Clearance has there ever been a day that you left your spikes at the house , climbed safeter, faster and in accord with Ansi stqandards/?

The thing that gets me bro is that permit trees will visit your job site and ask you " HEY YOU GOT A PERMIT TO CUT THESE TREES!?"
THou I have never seen OSHA, ANSi appear and say " Hey your gonna die doing it like that. heres your warning. fine"

The hypocracy of our industtry astounds me still. I hate the industry and the death its causing.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 5, 2006)

yep


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