# Fire



## Gologit

Put all fire related subjects here.


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## 2dogs

Thanks Bob!!!


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## madhatte

Recent Pics from Colorado Springs

WHY do people KEEP BUILDING IN THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACES?!? Look at that slope and those fuels! That's no place to put a road, much less a home, much less a whole subdivision! Here's hoping there aren't a thousand lawsuits as soon as the ashes cool.


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## Boomhower

madhatte said:


> Recent Pics from Colorado Springs
> 
> WHY do people KEEP BUILDING IN THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACES?!? Look at that slope and those fuels! That's no place to put a road, much less a home, much less a whole subdivision! Here's hoping there aren't a thousand lawsuits as soon as the ashes cool.



Hope everyone made it out ok...homes n stuff can be replaced:msp_wink:


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## bert0168

madhatte said:


> WHY do people KEEP BUILDING IN THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACES?!? Look at that slope and those fuels! That's no place to put a road, much less a home, much less a whole subdivision!



I always wondered that myself. I'm also curious as to why measures aren't taken to reduce the fuels in and around these homes and subdivisions.

Are there gov't restrictions which prevent this?


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## Joe46

Government restriction??? Not getting on your case Bud, but they are the ones that allow this kinda nonsense building to take place. More homes, more tax dollars. Talk to any fire marshal about what they think of these sub-divisions with 10foot setbacks. It's their biggest worry about what a fire would do to those places. Heck in a county just north of Seattle they've gone to the county commissioners with their concerns, and it just falls on deaf ears. OK, sorry enough ranting.


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## bert0168

Joe46 said:


> Government restriction??? Not getting on your case Bud, but they are the ones that allow this kinda nonsense building to take place. More homes, more tax dollars. Talk to any fire marshal about what they think of these sub-divisions with 10foot setbacks. It's their biggest worry about what a fire would do to those places. Heck in a county just north of Seattle they've gone to the county commissioners with their concerns, and it just falls on deaf ears. OK, sorry enough ranting.



The restrictions I was referring to are those that prevent the fuels reduction ( open space, etc), not the housing density.

I fully agree that they have a hand in creating the situation by allowing these high density developments in the first place.

What I was trying to articulate is, are there organizations that cry foul when the notion of fire prevention via controlled burns, removal of under-story, thinning, etc are suggested to at least remove the massive amount of dry fuel available to fires like this?

I know it makes no sense to build in an area that provides the potential for what is going on now. You certainly would never sell me a house in an area with that high of a risk for massive fires.


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## slowp

It takes a disaster before folks take such things into consideration. There was a subdivision in N. AZ that didn't want any thinning done in or around it. Then the Rodeo Chensomething fire hit. Their area didn't burn, which was strange because it was the most likely to. However, afterwards they took thinning to heart and quit fighting it. 

I'll bet those neighborhoods had covenants to restrict cutting trees. Look at how close the trees are to the houses!

People move to forested areas from the flatlands--Phoenix in the Arizona case, and they don't want any trees cut. They like trees in strange places. My neighbor had one growing out of the center of his house.
Decks were built around trees. 

You can only do so much to try to convince people, but they sometimes come around after a big fire. From the size and locations shown in the photos, I think there must have been one heck of a view. 

Our county finally quit letting folks build permanent houses in the flood plain.


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## bert0168

slowp said:


> It takes a disaster before folks take such things into consideration. There was a subdivision in N. AZ that didn't want any thinning done in or around it. Then the Rodeo Chensomething fire hit. Their area didn't burn, which was strange because it was the most likely to. However, afterwards they took thinning to heart and quit fighting it.
> 
> I'll bet those neighborhoods had covenants to restrict cutting trees. Look at how close the trees are to the houses!
> 
> People move to forested areas from the flatlands--Phoenix in the Arizona case, and they don't want any trees cut. They like trees in strange places. My neighbor had one growing out of the center of his house.
> Decks were built around trees.
> 
> You can only do so much to try to convince people, but they sometimes come around after a big fire. From the size and locations shown in the photos, I think there must have been one heck of a view.
> 
> Our county finally quit letting folks build permanent houses in the flood plain.



Sounds like what it boils down to is the residents themselves buying into the developments then ignoring (or not realizing) the hazards they create.


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## madhatte

slowp said:


> Our county finally quit letting folks build permanent houses in the flood plain.



WHAT

When did this happen, and how soon can I expect to see those damned infills along I-5 go away? Or am I just fartin' in the wind again?

EDIT

Oh, "houses", never mind.


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## RandyMac

Southwest Wildfires Captured from Space | OurAmazingPlanet.com


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## Gologit

slowp said:


> Decks were built around trees.



No! Who'd do something like that? Sounds like a California thing to me. :msp_wink:

We have covenants here that restrict tree cutting. You've been to our place and seen how many pine trees we have and how close they are to the house. I applied for permits to take most of the Ponderosa out but the homeowners's association is protesting it. The tree committee is a bunch of people who have all moved here from someplace else. None of them have ever seen a fire storm. I asked.

I'll get the permits eventually but in the meantime I hope we don't have any fires.


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## northmanlogging

Joe46 said:


> Government restriction??? Not getting on your case Bud, but they are the ones that allow this kinda nonsense building to take place. More homes, more tax dollars. Talk to any fire marshal about what they think of these sub-divisions with 10foot setbacks. It's their biggest worry about what a fire would do to those places. Heck in a county just north of Seattle they've gone to the county commissioners with their concerns, and it just falls on deaf ears. OK, sorry enough ranting.



snohomish county i.e. just north of seatle now has a five acres or more policy and a moratorium on "developments" but don't quote me I'm not a lawyer...


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## northmanlogging

does seem that around here a few people are getting the idea about fuel reduction, most of my logging albeit gypo... is thinning and danger tree removal. people are starting to see that that underbrush is awfully dense, but if they could just get their mower in their... maybe when a fire does hit it won't be so bad. Too bad more of em don't wake up and smell the charcoal


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## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> does seem that around here a few people are getting the idea about fuel reduction, most of my logging albeit gypo... is thinning and danger tree removal. people are starting to see that that underbrush is awfully dense, but if they could just get their mower in their... maybe when a fire does hit it won't be so bad. Too bad more of em don't wake up and smell the charcoal



I'm one of them with trees fairly close to the house. I'm more worried about slope stability and privacy.
My place is the island of trees surrounded by cleared land. I can't see it burning up unless we get something really strange going on. Tonight has been quite the lightning show here.


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## DavdH

*it's starting, fire season that is.*

We now have a 13,000 acre fire on the Mendocino Forest, it is early but it is starting, it is supposed to 
100* today and higher the rest of the week it has been nice until this week.


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## mile9socounty

Yall need to gripe at the forest circus and have them get a wrangle on that fire. The smoke is flooding us up here. We are receiving way too many phone calls from acient retired Californian's wanting to know if we have a fire here. Their constant rambling and droning is wearing on our nerves.


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## mile9socounty

Finally got our first lightning bust yesterday. It was a pretty good show, rolling thunder that would time out to 25 seconds of rumbling. A lot of nice strikes and incloud coloring. But we received about half an inch of rain. So far only one fire show up. Top of a 40" plus doug snag. Fallers have already put it on the ground. Cross your fingers. Pray its going to be a good money making fire season.


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## floyd

Last I heard SE Oregon had 900sq miles burned + lots of cattle.







Is windthrow a problem for you, slow p ?


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## madhatte

We've been RX burning like crazy the last couple of weeks. We finally have the weather for it so it's GO! time.


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## Dalmatian90

The $120 Million Dollar can of soda:

Sierra Pacific to pay nearly $50M, give 22,000 acres to settle lawsuit over N. Calif. wildfire - The Washington Post

Short and sweet...Sierra Pacific had two dozers working in red flag conditions. The fire watch left to get a can of soda, returned 30 minutes later to a fire burning. Also sounds like there was inadequate equipment on scene even if he had been in attendance (but it's a newspaper article so it's tough to figure out what is journalistic editing or not). 

$22.5M in firefighting costs.

The costs and fines add up to $55M in cash, and land worth approximately $65M.


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## slowp

floyd said:


> Is windthrow a problem for you, slow p ?



Around my house? Not unless a big horrible wind hits. The trees have not been recently opened up and are pretty windfirm. I cut down a few that had root rot, which I saw when I cut down one just because I didn't like where they were. Those would have died soon from being overtopped by the cedar. I had no blowdown when a wind ripped through here two winters ago. Others were not so lucky. 

It's a chance I take. I like not seeing my neighbors and have been planting trees every spring.


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## floyd

Chance anyone growing timber takes. 

I thinned some 40' 50yo DF about 20 yrs ago to 14x14 or so. Only an acre on a east slope. 50% of it went over bout 5 yr ago. I was fortunate. My neighbor salvage logged all summer. Took out 25 loads.



OR went to hoot owl monday. 

We had alot of lightening last PM. storm came out of the east. Weird for here. Have not heard about any fires from it.


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## 2dogs

Another near miss. A P2V lost an engine tonight just after takeoff but was able to return to the strip and land. The last incident involving a P2 was...two days ago. Another engine failure. Can you imagine commuting in today's traffic in a 1962 Chevy Malibu? All the P2s are over 50 yers old. Where has my tax money gone?


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## madhatte

I predict that air support will be an issue that is never resolved. The FAA is too restrictive, operations are too expensive, and the government is too broke to make things right. Instead, we'll continue to limp an aging fleet along from year to year, losing crews too often, and nobody will pony up the cash to solve the problem. As always, it's about money.


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## Gologit

Well said.


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## madhatte

I just wish that I was wrong. Hell, I remember my grandma #####ing about this same stuff when I was a kid. Nothing has changed since at least the early 70's, it seems.


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## madhatte

I found this commentary on That Other Site regarding the Waldo Canyon fire, and the WUI concerns I mentioned earlier:



> This was not a group of homes in a brush field on the Berdu, this was a subdivision of 1700 homes. Yes there was fire below, there was fire above, there was fire to the side, in short there was fire everywhere. But the fuel type was homes, there were no light flashy fuels to carry the fire, there was no continuous fuel at all. By the time we got in the main carrier of the fire was firebrands and radiant heat from home to home. The streets were wide, the utilities were underground, the possibility of being cut off was low. Even with the radiant heat put out by the homes as they burned, in the street it was not unbearable. Parks were abundant. Once we reconned the area, we knew that most roads were viable escape routes and in some cases were even potential escape routes or had one very close by.
> 
> Three strike teams went into Mountain Shadows, that's fifteen engines to cover 1700 homes, admittedly with the help of a few local government engines, at least one hotshot crew and LEOs patrolling for spots. Modules working alone was expected and necessary. Each strike team took several blocks, each engine took a street, we did what we could and then moved on. Five engines working on one house would have been exceedingly inefficient. When necessary multiple engines or entire strike teams tied in and made some very impressive stops, but this was after we had done what we could for individual homes and were now working on entire blocks in flames.
> 
> As I've said, each engine was working individual houses. The entire crew was working the house, within 200 feet of one another. That is why radios were not picked up. Communications on the modules were done by voice, module leaders called the STENs when needed, but that was mostly to relay intelligence and face to face was used most often at that level. There was radio traffic, just not on the intramodule level, as it wasn't needed and 15 people calling to say they were about to cut a deck off a house would have jammed up the one frequency we had.
> 
> You mention a "deliberate, tactical engagement" being thrown out. The deliberate plan was to keep the fire west of Centennial. We did. We could have burned off Centennial I guess, but that would have been frowned upon. Instead the tactical evolution went like this: Decision is made to hold the fire at Centennial, strike teams head up Centennial and spread out to the west to find the extent of the flaming front, engines report in where they have found the fire and attack what homes they think they can save while waiting for the intel to be collated, strike teams reconvene on Centennial and areas of responsibility are decided, engines head east of Centennial to control spots, at this point the wind has died down and the fire is now and urban conflagration west of Centennial, the engines are sent west of Centennial to save what we can with the focus being between Centennial and Flying W Ranch Rd. At no point was the plan thrown away, it was amended and the individual modules followed their bias for action and did what they could, but we are not automatons. Standing by the letter of the original plan would have meant sacrificing every home from Centennial to the Forest boundary when a good deal could and were saved.
> 
> Taking things at face value is the same as assuming, and we all know what that does. If you wish to ask probing questions, look higher. Why did the engines, STENs and Group Supervisor need to raid a gas station for maps? Why were three strike teams of federal type 3s the main structure protection force in an area that was under mandatory evacuation two days earlier on the priority fire in the nation? Why was no route into Mountain Shadows left open for fire traffic during the evacuation?



I think this does a pretty good job of showing the disconnect between Federal, State, and Local fire agencies regarding both jurisdiction and tactics when it's unclear whether a fire is going to breach the WUI boundary or not. This is likely to remain a problem until the structure vs. wildland dichotomy breaks down and we all train together. We're getting there in my agency, but it's a long, slow process. We wildland guys are still pretty ignorant of what the structure guys do and vice versa. Comms are always an issue.


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## Gologit

*Moonlight fire*

http://www.spi-ind.com/html/pdf_spi/QA.pdf


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## madhatte

Well, this is encouraging.

14 airframes less than 10 years old! USFS ownership, not private! This could be a very good thing. However, I note that the aircraft's service history has been a mess of dispute. Oh, well, at least it's some progress rather than another band-aid.


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## northmanlogging

Gologit said:


> http://www.spi-ind.com/html/pdf_spi/QA.pdf



any body else read between the lines on this and git a little angry at uncle sam?


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## Gologit

northmanlogging said:


> any body else read between the lines on this and git a little angry at uncle sam?



Yup.


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## mile9socounty

northmanlogging said:


> any body else read between the lines on this and git a little angry at uncle sam?



Yeah. I work for the State side of fire. Our relationship with the "federal" side of fire isnt very pleasent. They manage fire for the money, we are paid to put the red stuff out and keep them small.


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## Jacob J.

mile9socounty said:


> Yeah. I work for the State side of fire. Our relationship with the "federal" side of fire isnt very pleasent. They manage fire for the money, we are paid to put the red stuff out and keep them small.



There's varying motivations at all levels in fire management. I've worked for your agency and I've worked for just about every other state and federal agency in fire and there's dysfunction at all levels.


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## mile9socounty

Jacob J. said:


> There's varying motivations at all levels in fire management. I've worked for your agency and I've worked for just about every other state and federal agency in fire and there's dysfunction at all levels.



You are right JJ. Right now we are undergoing a power change and a major one. The ripple is effecting every level of the agency. I hope its for the better.


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## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> Recent Pics from Colorado Springs
> 
> WHY do people KEEP BUILDING IN THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACES?!? Look at that slope and those fuels! That's no place to put a road, much less a home, much less a whole subdivision! Here's hoping there aren't a thousand lawsuits as soon as the ashes cool.



When you say "people" what you're really referring to are wealthy developers and speculators who are making fortunes off these "subdivisions."


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## Jacob J.

mile9socounty said:


> You are right JJ. Right now we are undergoing a power change and a major one. The ripple is effecting every level of the agency. I hope its for the better.



I think it will be. I noticed you got a new North Unit Forester which I think is going to work out well. 

The Forest Service in your area just cut 16 permanent staff positions and 43 seasonal firefighter positions and obsoleted 22 major pieces of equipment. The equipment will be sold at auction to private bidders. The directive from the Obama administration now is "use more contractors" in all phases of land management, including fire. This is a repeat of the 1999-2002 scenario which included Title 3 and Title 4 amendments to the national fire plan. We all know how that turned out.


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## madhatte

Jacob J. said:


> When you say "people" what you're really referring to are wealthy developers and speculators who are making fortunes off these "subdivisions."



Yep, and the Chambers Of Commerce and city and county governments raking in the tax windfall.


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## slowp

The TV news was showing night time pictures of The Antoine Fire. That area burns every few years. It always has. 

Maybe it is time to slow down building in areas like that--kind of like we do for flooding (except along I-5 in our county). 

I grew up in the Wenatchee Valley, and fires on the hills were regular events. Now there are some big honking houses built on those hills--for the views.


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## northmanlogging

there has been a few big fires around wenatchee in the last few years think they would pay attention??? flooding is why I won't buy a house near ANY big rivers around here watched lots of em go down stream out Darrington way and spent lots of time not in high school filling sand bags


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## zogger

madhatte said:


> Recent Pics from Colorado Springs
> 
> WHY do people KEEP BUILDING IN THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACES?!? Look at that slope and those fuels! That's no place to put a road, much less a home, much less a whole subdivision! Here's hoping there aren't a thousand lawsuits as soon as the ashes cool.



You can apply that to any number of living situations..why do people build right on the gulf coast where you dang sure are gonna get nailed with a hurricane now and then..or in tornado alley, or big river flood plains, or in big potential earthquake country...why do people insist on building or remodeling and living in major urban areas with all the crime??? Or suburbia which has none of the advantages of rural living, nor urban???

People want to live where they want to live, and we all got to live someplace, and every place you can name has a potential major natural catastrophic threat associated with it, fires, floods ice storms blizzards, big winds, shakers, whatever..


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## madhatte

3 from today:


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## mile9socounty

Jacob J. said:


> I think it will be. I noticed you got a new North Unit Forester which I think is going to work out well.
> 
> The Forest Service in your area just cut 16 permanent staff positions and 43 seasonal firefighter positions and obsoleted 22 major pieces of equipment. The equipment will be sold at auction to private bidders. The directive from the Obama administration now is "use more contractors" in all phases of land management, including fire. This is a repeat of the 1999-2002 scenario which included Title 3 and Title 4 amendments to the national fire plan. We all know how that turned out.



Larson is already doing a good job up North. Cleaning house more or less. After this fire season there are already two FO's looking for different jobs. The North side has always had a bad wrap sheet. Im just glad Larson is adjusting fire. 

I the other hand. I was rather shocked about what Tiller has this year. I know our mutal repsonce area with them his increased significantly this summer. As well to our responces in actual towns and communities for fires inside of their limits. Things are changing. For good or bad, I cant tell. But something has to be done with our "upper" management in Roseburg. Cant squeeze blood from a stone.


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## slowp

August is here. Another death.

Wildfires threaten homes in several western states | Local News | The Seattle Times

Cle Elum is to the east of Seattle. Not the west as it says later on in the article.


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## madhatte

This one is getting big. Nat'l Guard helicopters already called in; State Of Emergency declared in Yakima and Kittitas Counties. Winds ~30 MPH, RH ~15%, temp ~95... oh, and lightning to come Thurs and Fri. Details here. Inciweb doesn't have a map up yet. Bummer, that.


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## slowp

Yah, but it is in fairly open country--if the wind will stop. I was wondering if it was your smoke drifting in here but we had easterly winds and there *was* a fire on the other side of the pass.


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## madhatte

That one by Cle Elum is gonna be a big deal, I think -- it's been a few years since they've had a fire there, lots of Seattleites have moved in, and the beetle-kill is thicker than green timber. 

And, then, there's this, from NOAA:



> ...VERY DRY WITH UNSTABLE SURFACE CONDITIONS EXPECTED THURSDAY AND
> FRIDAY...
> 
> .A STRONG SURFACE THERMAL TROUGH WILL DEVELOP OVER NORTHWESTERN
> OREGON BEGINNING LATE WEDNESDAY THEN SHIFT NORTHWARD THURSDAY AND
> FRIDAY. THIS WILL BRING PARTICULARLY UNSTABLE SURFACE CONDITIONS ON
> TOP OF VERY DRY RELATIVE HUMIDITY.
> 
> ...FIRE WEATHER WATCH IN EFFECT FROM WEDNESDAY MORNING THROUGH
> FRIDAY EVENING FOR HOT AND DRY CONDITIONS FOR FIRE WEATHER ZONES
> OR602...WA602...603...604...604...605...606...607...608 AND 660...
> 
> THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN PORTLAND HAS ISSUED A FIRE
> WEATHER WATCH FOR HOT AND DRY CONDITIONS...WHICH IS IN EFFECT
> FROM WEDNESDAY MORNING THROUGH FRIDAY EVENING.
> 
> * AFFECTED AREA...FIRE WEATHER ZONES 602...602...603...604...
> 604...605...606...607...608 AND 660.
> 
> * HAINES...MID-LEVEL HAINES OF 5 WEDNESDAY INCREASING TO 6
> THURSDAY AND FRIDAY.
> 
> * RELATIVE HUMIDITY...AS LOW AS 19 PERCENT.
> 
> * IMPACTS...SIGNIFICANT INSTABILITY COMBINED WITH VERY LOW
> HUMIDITY MAY RESULT IN EXPLOSIVE FIRE GROWTH FOR EXISTING FIRES.
> Instructions: A FIRE WEATHER WATCH MEANS THAT CRITICAL FIRE WEATHER
> CONDITIONS ARE FORECAST TO OCCUR. LISTEN FOR LATER FORECASTS AND POSSIBLE
> RED FLAG WARNINGS.
> Target Area: Central Oregon Cascade Foothills
> East Slopes of the Central Oregon Coast Range
> Mt. Hood National Forest - West of Cascade Crest
> North Oregon Cascade Foothills
> North Oregon Coast Range
> Willamette National Forest
> Willamette Valley


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## slowp

Yup. I don't think the wind will die long enough. It is August after all. There's a slide show on the left side of this page.

Taylor Bridge Fire - Daily Record: Photo Gallery

I think my daddy worked on the construction of those electrical towers. He worked in that area quite a bit.


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## madhatte

We've got a biggun going right now; burned area as of 2230 last night was around 2500 acres. It's pretty much contained, but we'll be burning out some more today for a likely total near 3000 acres. Weird winds are contributing to the fire activity in addition to the hot and dry weather. Got some cutting to do now.


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## floyd

Still burning in SE Oregon so East winds bring smoke up our way.


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## Gologit

InciWeb the Incident Information System: Chips



CAL FIRE - Incidents


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## slowp

I just traveled to Vancouver, USA and back. The air gets bad at Longview. Cough Cough. The papermills are going strong too.


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## Jacob J.

mile9socounty said:


> Larson is already doing a good job up North. Cleaning house more or less. After this fire season there are already two FO's looking for different jobs. The North side has always had a bad wrap sheet. Im just glad Larson is adjusting fire.
> 
> I the other hand. I was rather shocked about what Tiller has this year. I know our mutal repsonce area with them his increased significantly this summer. As well to our responces in actual towns and communities for fires inside of their limits. Things are changing. For good or bad, I cant tell. But something has to be done with our "upper" management in Roseburg. Cant squeeze blood from a stone.



Well, Todd is the man to handle anything in the Tiller area. I've worked with him a lot and I really like him and how he runs things. He's laid back enough to get along with anyone but has a ton of fire knowledge. The Forest Service is going to continue to run into problems with how things are shaking out. 

BTW- I noticed you guys have a former engine boss who is now driving for Fedex. I was shocked to see that. I worked for him on that Stouts Creek complex back in '01 and it went good for me and my crew.


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## Gologit

Montana hotshot crew reported major safety concerns day before Idaho firefighter killed (see report) | Voices.IdahoStatesman.com



Comments?


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## northmanlogging

Some folks just don't know when or how to listen to experience. Unfortunately the stubborn ones are in charge and never really come that close to danger so they never learn. Even when someone gets hurt or killed.


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## madhatte

> We told him we had a list of safety concerns and mitigations if he would like to hear them. We read him our list and he said they have a different set of values and do things differently.



This is why NWCG qualifications are enforced at every level of every organization. We DON'T get to have "different values" or "do things differently". That IC needs fired. 

However, it's up to each firefighter to look out for their own and their crew's safety. It's too easy to blame a shoddy IC. The crews on the ground bear their own responsibility as well. The hotshot crew that refused unnecessary hazard did so correctly and in accordance with all applicable training and documentation. The crew that accepted hazard also did so correctly. It's up to both leaders and followers to make these decisions in the best interest of all involved. 

Accidents happen. We do try to prevent them, but sometimes they happen anyway. That's why they're called "accidents".

EDIT: the comments attached to that article are calling for Involuntary Manslaughter charges to be raised against the Potlach IC? That seems a bit out of touch. What about the rest of the folks in the chain-of-command who didn't step up? Certainly the news of a hotshot crew refusing an assignment wasn't unknown in those parts. I'd like to see the write-up that follows this incident to know where the real breakdown was.


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## slowp

madhatte said:


> EDIT: the comments attached to that article are calling for Involuntary Manslaughter charges to be raised against the Potlach IC? That seems a bit out of touch. What about the rest of the folks in the chain-of-command who didn't step up? Certainly the news of a hotshot crew refusing an assignment wasn't unknown in those parts. I'd like to see the write-up that follows this incident to know where the real breakdown was.



Will it go to the courts like the Thirty Mile fatalities did? The fallout from the Thirty Mile lawsuits and court action got a few folks to turn down fire assignments or give it up, or shop for liability insurance. They refused to be crewbosses anymore. Some good, experienced people got out of fire fighting because of that.


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## zogger

slowp said:


> Will it go to the courts like the Thirty Mile fatalities did? The fallout from the Thirty Mile lawsuits and court action got a few folks to turn down fire assignments or give it up, or shop for liability insurance. They refused to be crewbosses anymore. Some good, experienced people got out of fire fighting because of that.



Government BS. They close roads, don't allow access for firewood harvesting or logging so many places. They have mass quantities of fuel, cubic miles of the stuff, sit there and die, then you have constant forest fires. They could use all this dry dead wood in coal burning electrical plants with some modifications. They could set up via tax incentives, cost them not a penny of taxpayer money, mass biochar facilities, allowing entrepeneurs to put a lot more people back to work, and provide low cost long term great farmland subsoil fertilizer, any number of things. But nope, just let it accumulate and then catch fire, then cobjob and lowball any response because all the major taxpayer loot goes to fight wall street wars of aquisition and other sorts of obvious corporate welfare.

Freaking EPA forces manufacturers to ship two stroke tools with carbs that are guaranteed to destroy that tool without modifications that most people don't know about, yet let all these western lands burn up year after year after decade after genertation, billions of tons of smoke/particles/gasses into the atmosphere, with nothing to show for it, except for expense and forcing unnecessary danger on the guys tasked with fighting these fires!

Ya'all remember some years back they let those firefighters burn up because they wouldn't allow the tanker helos to suck water from a stream with some endangered minnow? 

That's the government people are working for. I wouldn't do it, not with policies like that.

If you ain't a globalist fatcat, you ain't squat to them people. They don't care.

I am not anti government at all, but I am for sure anti stupid bloated wasteful criminal crooked corrupt riddled with junk science and crony fatcat welfare brand government.


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## Gologit

zogger said:


> Ya'all remember some years back they let those firefighters burn up because they wouldn't allow the tanker helos to suck water from a stream with some endangered minnow?



They *let* those firefighters burn up? Maybe you should cite the incident you're referring to. There have been some deaths, no argument there, but I don't remember anybody *letting* anybody burn up.

And as far as not being able to draw water from anyplace because of a minnow...once again we'll need some specific instances.


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## zogger

Gologit said:


> They *let* those firefighters burn up? Maybe you should cite the incident you're referring to. There have been some deaths, no argument there, but I don't remember anybody *letting* anybody burn up.
> 
> And as far as not being able to draw water from anyplace because of a minnow...once again we'll need some specific instances.



It was like a decade ago, but I will try to find the reference. There was a lot of discussion on the net at the time of it happening, but I don't have that at my fingertips right now. Gist of it was they got cutoff, trapped, had some sort of emergency covers they could throw over themselves,like metallic blankets?? Not sure on that.. They called in for a water drop around them. The gov suits/straw bosses/commissars dithered on where they could pick up water, they sent the helos farther away then the closest source. They croaked, water didn't get to them in time. I will look and see if I can find the real story., if I do find it I will update this post.

edit:OK, this is the best I can do right now, my memory wasn't too bad.

Original story

Government lets 8 people burn to death in order to save fish - Family, Friends, Firearms

Government investigates itself, finds "nothing to see here, move along now"

Report Shows That Endangered Species Act and Endangered Trout and Salmon Were Not REsponsible for Firefighter Deaths | Trout Unlimited - Conserving coldwater fisheries


----------



## Gologit

*Zogger...*

This is the real deal...not some civilian's version of what happened. Were there mistakes made? Yes there were. But it would be an even bigger mistake, and a serious disservice to the memory of those who died, to let the media shape your opinion of what really happened.


http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/documents/Thirtymile_Reports/Thirtymile-Final-Report-2.pdf


----------



## slowp

zogger said:


> Government BS. They close roads, don't allow access for firewood harvesting or logging so many places. They have mass quantities of fuel, cubic miles of the stuff, sit there and die, then you have constant forest fires. They could use all this dry dead wood in coal burning electrical plants with some modifications. They could set up via tax incentives, cost them not a penny of taxpayer money, mass biochar facilities, allowing entrepeneurs to put a lot more people back to work, and provide low cost long term great farmland subsoil fertilizer, any number of things. But nope, just let it accumulate and then catch fire, then cobjob and lowball any response because all the major taxpayer loot goes to fight wall street wars of aquisition and other sorts of obvious corporate welfare.
> 
> Freaking EPA forces manufacturers to ship two stroke tools with carbs that are guaranteed to destroy that tool without modifications that most people don't know about, yet let all these western lands burn up year after year after decade after genertation, billions of tons of smoke/particles/gasses into the atmosphere, with nothing to show for it, except for expense and forcing unnecessary danger on the guys tasked with fighting these fires!
> 
> Ya'all remember some years back they let those firefighters burn up because they wouldn't allow the tanker helos to suck water from a stream with some endangered minnow?
> 
> That's the government people are working for. I wouldn't do it, not with policies like that.
> 
> If you ain't a globalist fatcat, you ain't squat to them people. They don't care.
> 
> I am not anti government at all, but I am for sure anti stupid bloated wasteful criminal crooked corrupt riddled with junk science and crony fatcat welfare brand government.



OK, what is your plan? Lodgepole pine lives about 80 years, and then it attracts beetles, which kill the tree, then lightning hits the tree, a fire starts, and it burns up. The cones need heat to open up and disperse seed. Then the lodgepole cycle starts all over. That's how nature has been growing that particular tree for centuries. 

We don't have the facilities--mills or pellet plants or anything else in much of the west anymore. Who would build the new mills? Most private investors are too smart to invest in a business that relies on timber off federal lands. They've been burned by shutdowns, forest planning, lawsuits and even fires. 
The forests are governed by whatever political parties are in charge. Not by foresters. 

I closed roads. It was in the contract to tear up and close those roads. We couldn't allow firewood cutting while the timber sale was going, unless the timber sale buyer agreed to it. Agreeing to let folks into cut the slash piles placed liability on the purchaser. So, 99% would not agree to that. 

There were lots of rumors about the Thirty Mile fire. We don't have "minnows" in those waters. We have salmon, trout, and steelhead. In those creeks ( I lived in that area for a few years) there would be trout.
The creeks feed into the Methow River, which feeds into the Columbia. The latter two have trout, steelhead, and a few salmon. No minnows that I know of. There were other rumors going around too.

Also, in our part of the country, we have plenty of electricity. This year they were shutting off the wind generators because we had a surplus of hydro power. Any biomass plant would have to be govt. subsidized because it isn't needed here. There was an attempt to put one in Shelton, WA, but some of the residents protested and about then the power surplus was mentioned.

Times have changed. Oh, and we had some big fires in past years. Look up Entiat and 1970. That was when there were mills and logging and roads. 1986, 1987. I was on the firelines those two years. Logging and roads were still going pretty good too. 1977 was another good year to make overtime on fires.

That's all I can remember. There is no easy solution. I think part of the reason we have more big fires is that we don't have as many eyes in the woods. When there were loggers all over, and FS folks, smokes were more apt to be spotted by somebody. Sometimes those got away too. 

We also did more salvage logging of bug kill but now those mills are gone. The planning that is now required to put up such timber for sale can cost more than the value of the timber. 

I'm open to hearing solutions. But we hear the same rhetoric every fire season, then all the promises are forgotten over the winter, and then we have a repeat. It is Groundhog Day. 

Good on that crew for pulling out. And good on their people for supporting their decision. 

We could use a fire in our huckleberry fields. But that doesn't happen. Oh well....and I'd be complaining about the smoke.


----------



## northmanlogging

edit:OK, this is the best I can do right now, my memory wasn't too bad.

Original story

Government lets 8 people burn to death in order to save fish - Family, Friends, Firearms


Ok I Remember that Fire. Yes 4 people died Yes They were cut off, But 1: the "rivers" nearby are not very big, as in not deep enough to fill a drop bucket 2: The poor bastards gave lousy coordinates, because they were lost and therefore could not be found, this was before everyone had a gps in their pocket 3: Do Not use an opinion piece as "the REAL STORY". Poopy happens people die, I really doubt that the people in charge of a fire would just Let someone die without doing everything in their power to rescue them

Please if eye am wrong correct me, I think I got most of the pertinent details in there


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> edit:OK, this is the best I can do right now, my memory wasn't too bad.
> 
> Original story
> 
> Government lets 8 people burn to death in order to save fish - Family, Friends, Firearms
> 
> 
> Ok I Remember that Fire. Yes 4 people died Yes They were cut off, But 1: the "rivers" nearby are not very big, as in not deep enough to fill a drop bucket 2: The poor bastards gave lousy coordinates, because they were lost and therefore could not be found, this was before everyone had a gps in their pocket 3: Do Not use an opinion piece as "the REAL STORY". Poopy happens people die, I really doubt that the people in charge of a fire would just Let someone die without doing everything in their power to rescue them
> 
> Please if eye am wrong correct me, I think I got most of the pertinent details in there



No they were not lost. They did get trapped. The majority of the crew took shelter in the river or creek with fire shelters. The four that died popped their fire shelters on a rocky hillside. There were rumors that the crewboss yelled at them to get in the creek but they refused. That was a RUMOR going around, not proven. And there was an area to get a bucket in. But it aint TV. 

A former co-worker summed it up as a crew that had been thrown together and didn't have time to get to 
know and trust each other. I think that's a good summation. When I went on thrown together at the last minute crews, we were from the same district, and we'd worked together on slash burning projects. We knew each other and our capabilities. There are few slash burns anymore. 

We can't know what really happened. We weren't there. Firefighting is dangerous.


----------



## northmanlogging

Thank you for the correction. It was a while ago... I just can't stand when people take an opinion article and state it as the bold truth I probably over reacted a bit...:redface:


----------



## madhatte

The other thing about the "ESA VS Firefighters" argument in the Thirtymile investigation which is often missed is that the restriction against dipping in the Cheuwuch River did not extend to emergency situations. This fact was not clearly related to either the firefighters on the ground, to their overhead, or to the pilots flying the helicopters. It was assumed that the restriction applied, and not pursued further.


----------



## zogger

northmanlogging said:


> edit:OK, this is the best I can do right now, my memory wasn't too bad.
> 
> Original story
> 
> Government lets 8 people burn to death in order to save fish - Family, Friends, Firearms
> 
> 
> Ok I Remember that Fire. Yes 4 people died Yes They were cut off, But 1: the "rivers" nearby are not very big, as in not deep enough to fill a drop bucket 2: The poor bastards gave lousy coordinates, because they were lost and therefore could not be found, this was before everyone had a gps in their pocket 3: Do Not use an opinion piece as "the REAL STORY". Poopy happens people die, I really doubt that the people in charge of a fire would just Let someone die without doing everything in their power to rescue them
> 
> Please if eye am wrong correct me, I think I got most of the pertinent details in there



I was going by hazy memory from a story more than a decade ago, and a quick search that was what I could find yesterday for a reference, that's all.


----------



## Gologit

northmanlogging said:


> Thank you for the correction. It was a while ago... I just can't stand when people take an opinion article and state it as the bold truth I probably over reacted a bit...:redface:



You did fine.


----------



## slowp

The hills and canyons that often turned black every few years are doing so now. Only now there's more people living there.

Canyon residents warned to evacuate | The Wenatchee World


----------



## northmanlogging

So what happens if a guy where to get an evacuation notice and ignore it and stay home? Assuming that he lived through it and his property was mostly in tact just a random thought of the day...


----------



## OlympicYJ

Is the clearwater-potlatch timber protection association made up of private timber companies or govt? I dont know squat about the intermountain region so could somebody fill me in? Referring to the article where the Montana hot shot crew walked off after safety concerns. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> So what happens if a guy where to get an evacuation notice and ignore it and stay home? Assuming that he lived through it and his property was mostly in tact just a random thought of the day...



I think nothing. And, if I had greenery around my home in that area, I would be inclined to stay home. It is mostly grass and brush on the hills above Wenatchee. If I lived there, I would definitely have a green zone around my house, along with a metal roof on the house. 

Some really big houses were built on the hillsides. The same hillsides that had frequent "grass fires" on them. That's what we called the fires that burned around the valley.


----------



## northmanlogging

I like a nice little piece of fire brake around the house... Most of those houses on the hill are fairly new right? And they haven't had a big fire in Wenatchee in a few years correct? This could go bad really fast... Not saying I would stay home but after working and living in a place for umpteen years it could be very hard to just walk away and hope the fire crews stopped it just in time:msp_unsure:


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> So what happens if a guy where to get an evacuation notice and ignore it and stay home?



Usually nothing. Fire crews have no authority to enforce law. However, occasionally, if a State of Emergency, or worse, Martial Law, is declared, LEO's are _more than able_ to do their jobs. 

When I lived in Orlando in 1998, the fires there were bad enough that they declared Martial Law, and evacuated all of Flagler County. Anyone within the county who was not part of a fire/emergency crew, law enforcement, or National Guard, was assumed to be a looter and arrested on sight. A firefighter I know was on a crew there and was stopped at a roadblock in a "non-approved vehicle" with a load of food and supplies for a fire camp, and was almost not allowed to make his delivery. It was only through the showing of Red Cards and mighty and judicious of Diplomacy that the situation was squared away in a timely fashion.

Now that you mention it... Looks like these bits of rain aren't going to help the east side at all.


----------



## slowp

I might be worried if I lived in the house shown in the first picture.

Lightning sparks wildfires in Wenatchee | www.kirotv.com


----------



## slowp

Cedar shake roofs? On that hillside??? Crazy stupid.

Fires bring new worries, new evacuations | www.kirotv.com


----------



## mile9socounty

Yep, nothing new here. Just in extreme fire danger with an IFPL 3 closure.


----------



## madhatte

Oh, and this. This almost never happens in September.


----------



## northmanlogging

well aren't you all full of good cheer and good tidings...


----------



## slowp

Some pictures from the Oregonian.

Washington Wildfires | OregonLive.com


----------



## Joe46

Looks like we're bringing in crews from B.C. to help.


----------



## mile9socounty

Its sad to say I wont be going to any of these large project fires. Our district manager wont allow any of us to go anywhere. We are needed here on our own home front. Our ERC's and BI's are suppose to be in the 60's today. Thats plum dry here. Just no fires.


----------



## madhatte

The Puget Sound Clean Air Act folks have this to say this morning:



> For September 17-20: Smoke from the wildfires in Eastern Washington may reemerge in Puget Sound this week. Mornings will become increasingly more stagnant in Pierce and King counties where we could see MODERATE air quality as early as Monday. By Tuesday, most of Puget Sound could have MODERATE conditions. The fires over the Cascades have grown this weekend and we are likely to see some more air quality impacts, especially nearer the Cascades, where we could see levels UNHEALTHY FOR SENSITIVE GROUPS again. We will monitor the situation closely and we will keep this forecast updated as events develop.



and the NOAA folks have this to say:



> .DISCUSSION...AN UPPER LEVEL RIDGE WILL REMAIN PRIMARILY IN CONTROL
> OF OUR WEATHER THROUGH THE WEEK. A THERMAL TROUGH OF LOW PRESSURE
> OVER WESTERN WASHINGTON WILL WAFFLE BACK AND FORTH ACROSS THE STATE
> THROUGH THE WEEK RESULTING IN DRIER AND WARMER THAN NORMAL CONDITIONS
> AND AN UNSTABLE MID LEVEL AIR MASS. MODELS CONTINUE TO INDICATE SOME
> FORM OF RIDGE BREAKDOWN/WEAKENING THIS COMING WEEKEND BUT THE
> DETAILS ARE FAR FROM CERTAIN AT THIS TIME.
> 
> FORECAST FOR 20 FOOT WIND SPEED (VALLEYS AND RIDGE TOPS) ARE 10
> MINUTE AVERAGES REFLECTING RAWS WINDS.
> 
> 
> WAZ654>657-172330-
> WESTERN WASHINGTON FIRE WEATHER ZONES 654-655-656-657
> AREA 4...INTERIOR LOWLANDS-
> 814 AM PDT MON SEP 17 2012
> 
> .TODAY...
> * SKY/WEATHER...........SUNNY. PATCHY FOG IN THE MORNING.
> * LAL...................1.
> * MAX TEMPERATURE.......73-83.
> * MIN HUMIDITY..........29-44 PERCENT.
> * 20-FOOT WINDS.........NORTH TO NORTHEAST WINDS AROUND 5 MPH.
> * HAINES MID-LEVEL......6 OR HIGH.
> * HAINES HIGH-LEVEL.....4 OR LOW.
> * MIXING HEIGHT.........700-1700 FT AGL.
> * TRANSPORT WINDS.......LIGHT WINDS BECOMING NORTH AROUND 5 MPH.
> * CWR (>0.25)...........0 PERCENT.
> 
> ....8 TO 14 DAY OUTLOOK FOR SEP 24 - 30, 2012
> ABOVE NORMAL TEMPERATURES AND BELOW NORMAL PRECIPITATION.




Yeah, we aren't going anywhere either. This "indian summer" is the gift that keeps on giving.

EDIT: oh, and here's a MODIS image from a few days ago showing why we've got so much smoke on this side:


----------



## slowp

I don't mind the smoke so much (and it is bad here today) if I know that our friends in Pugettropolis are inhaling it also. Somehow, I like that. I guess I'm evil.


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## madhatte

Sure was a cool-looking sunrise through all that smoke. Mt Rainier was silhouetted against solid red from Lacey this morning.


----------



## paccity

anyone know the restrictions over in lapine? was wondering because of our gtg coming up fri. we just went high level 3 east and west side of the coast range.


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## mile9socounty

No idea. I know that RFP just put out a nation wide email saying they are shutting down all their land to the public in CA and OR. You get caught on the property. Boy howdy, good luck.


----------



## RandyMac

Rural Homeowners Fight Back Against Calif. Fire Prevention ‘Tax’ « CBS Los Angeles


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Rural Homeowners Fight Back Against Calif. Fire Prevention ‘Tax’ « CBS Los Angeles



150 bucks a year? I spend more on coffee than that.

We had the same thing here last year. The fee didn't amount to enough to even notice but people still fought it. It passed but just barely.

Interesting side note...most of the people who were against the fee were newcomers and haven't seen a real bad urban-interface forest fire. Yet.


----------



## paccity

be driving threw this friday.:msp_sad:


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## floyd

If you are a district employee you should stay home. Let the pros hit the fire lines . That is why they have training you do not. 

I would hazzard a guess LaPine is dry.


Very little smoke in the Gorge this am. Heavy smoke cover last evening.


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## paccity

just driving threw. looks like t-storms sat. damp here this am. be heading over the pass in about 4.


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## northmanlogging

bring a shovel anyway never know... Damn maybe I am paranoid...:help:


----------



## mile9socounty

As of noon yesterday. Douglas County DG-1 & DG-2 went back down into an IFPL 2. So its back to 1300 closure hour on the saws for us.


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## slowp

Hmmmm. If this one burns downhill on the south side, we can see what happens in a thinning in 2 year old slash. The only slash treatment was along a trail and on the landings.

_South Point Fire 

( PACKWOOD ) – When compared to the other fires burning in the state, the South Point Fire outside Packwood is pretty minuscule. About 90-acres have burned so far inside the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. The biggest worry centers around key radio communications equipment. So far, the fire has been burning away from that electronic gear. Still, a lot of people can see the smoke between Randle and Packwood. Now, a public meeting is being scheduled to talk about the situation. It’s scheduled for 7:00 p.m. this Thursday at the Packwood Fire Hall._


----------



## madhatte

View attachment 254223


We have this one smoldering in the reeds around a marsh. It's impossible to contain because we don't have SCUBA gear!


----------



## northmanlogging

madhatte said:


> We have this one smoldering in the reeds around a marsh. It's impossible to contain because we don't have SCUBA gear!



That's a weird one, a guy would think that it would be wet enough to not burn, learn something new everyday...


----------



## madhatte

Oh, look, another Red Flag warning.


----------



## mile9socounty

I stopped paying attention to the red flags. It freezes at night, hot during the day and no humidity recovery. The other morning at 8am at the Silver Butte station. Humidity was down to 8%.


----------



## ForestBound

Well at least i wont have any shortage of morels to pick next year...


----------



## FSburt

Just came back from a 18 day stint on the Wenatchee Complex as a Field Observer (FOBS). Here is what I observed over that time. These fire on the OW need a alot of things to line up right for them to move. The Byrd fire and the onther front country fires where the only ones to really get with it and the Table Mtn and Peavine fires they got pretty well established on some rough ground in some heavy fuel loaded areas so these fires where able to build up some steam. Now for the rest of the fires in the complex like the upper elevation fires like the Pyramid and Basalt these fires would not move very fast even with high winds. Probably partly due to them being sheltered somewhat and at higher elevations. These fire where actually doing pretty good cleaning up the understory fuels and the smaller vegetation. Must admit this is some of the most beautiful country I have every been in and the timber above Lake Wenatchee is huge in places. The cedars down along the White River along the Sears Creek Fire where huge diameter but short in height and reminded me of the Giant Seqouias how they stood out in size against everything else. Some very steep and rough ground to boot. Nice visit and hope to return some day. On the way home I drove over to Seattle and down the 5 since I have never been down the west side of Oregon and Washington. Wanted to ask how many cuttings some of the forests along this area have been logged over looked like at least 2 to 3 times but it can grow the timber from the looks of the young plantations growing back. Fiberology at its finest.


----------



## northmanlogging

I think some of the I-5 corridor is approaching 3-4 maybe more cuts on it. If ya wanna see some impressive 2nd 3rd growth stuff get about 30-40 miles off the beaten path onto some old dnr/forest service roads, getting hard to tell the difference between old growth and healthy 2nd growth in some places


----------



## madhatte

I know lots of 3rd-growth is being cut now in commercial forests. That'll be most of what you see on the I-5 corridor. Back in the hills, big 2nd-growth is pretty common. I've been marking a lot of ~40" stuff lately that's only about 80 YO. We can definite'y grow 'em here.


----------



## RandyMac

Lots of lightning to our East, it is dry, probably going to see some activity.


----------



## Joe46

Just finished reading a small article from one of our local stations(KOMO). It seems "scientist" are blaming the severity of forest fires here in Washington on global warming. Interesting take on our fires. Locals believe the lack of logging and forest fuels are more the likely problem:msp_ohmy:


----------



## slowp

I do not understand. Seems like the FS has a fire is good, so we'll leave it alone policy. The trouble is, then the fire grows in size, and starts getting out of the OK to let it burn area. Then it is large, and sucks in a lot of money to try to control it.

Here is a good example. The fire is a lightning (not lightening) caused one that started out small. Folks were sent up to observe it--not to work on controlling it, but to observe it. 

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5391954.pdf

Now it is going where it is not wanted to go.

We also have a more safety conscious FS, where folks are not going to go where we did in the crazy days.
This and a fire from a couple years ago were considered to be too steep to put crews on. 

It depends on what you are used to. A group of us were sent to training. It was held locally, and other forests sent people to it. A group from the east side was supposed to walk downhill and look for stuff. We west siders were sent down the same hill. The east siders went down a bit, and then declared it to be unsafe. We locals, did our usual butt sliding, vegetation belay methods that we used everyday, and all made it down to the road without injury. 

Anyway, it seems like the policy is let it burn, until it starts heading where we don't want it, and then try to control it by throwing a lot more money at it than it would have cost if it was taken care of when small. 

It sounds like fire season will end this weekend anyway.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> It sounds like fire season will end this weekend anyway.



Yeah, rain by Friday! Woo-hoo! It's about time.


----------



## ForestBound

Keep the rain i don't want to put the raingear on... Had it too nice this year we're getting spoiled.. The moss on my back is almost dried up...


----------



## forestryworks

Joe46 said:


> Just finished reading a small article from one of our local stations(KOMO). It seems "scientist" are blaming the severity of forest fires here in Washington on global warming. Interesting take on our fires. Locals believe the lack of logging and forest fuels are more the likely problem:msp_ohmy:



It's easily a combination of both, as well as other things.

Every time I see one of those "severity of fire" headlines, I ask myself, "How many times has that happened in the last 20,000 years? Probably nothing new under the sun."

Nature is always complex (too complex for news articles) and always changing, just my opinion.


----------



## FSburt

Your right on a few points here SLOWP we have become a way more safety oriented and less aggresive towards fire suppression than in yrs past. I know when I started in 1988 we put out everything no matter how good it was doing or even if it where surrounded by a rock field and lakes we still put it out. We are now taking a more open approach to fire with natural ignitions being evaluated for their potential to burn into values at risk and the risk to firefighters by suppression actions on a fire that has fire behavior and associated fire effects that are on the positive side since we have had the ability to log taken out of large areas of our land base especially in the NW. When I was up on the Wen/ Okanognen a couple of weeks back I asked how much volume they were logging off the forest and u would think I had asked a foreign question because the answer shocked me that they are doing very little to no logging on this forest anymore. Even on our forest in the central Sierras we are still being asked to produce a minimum of 8 million bf in timber volume to help keep our local mills infastructure intact. Fire is becoming one of the only fuels managment tools available to help keep fuels and vegetation in some form of acceptable condition. I know the fires I was working on up the Wenatchee and Entiat rivers where doing nothing but good from my observations but I can see if they where to get a good warm east wind that would change pretty quick but us that work in this business take all this as part of the risk we look at when the decision is made to let some of these fire burn. 





slowp said:


> I do not understand. Seems like the FS has a fire is good, so we'll leave it alone policy. The trouble is, then the fire grows in size, and starts getting out of the OK to let it burn area. Then it is large, and sucks in a lot of money to try to control it.
> 
> Here is a good example. The fire is a lightning (not lightening) caused one that started out small. Folks were sent up to observe it--not to work on controlling it, but to observe it.
> 
> http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5391954.pdf
> 
> Now it is going where it is not wanted to go.
> 
> We also have a more safety conscious FS, where folks are not going to go where we did in the crazy days.
> This and a fire from a couple years ago were considered to be too steep to put crews on.
> 
> It depends on what you are used to. A group of us were sent to training. It was held locally, and other forests sent people to it. A group from the east side was supposed to walk downhill and look for stuff. We west siders were sent down the same hill. The east siders went down a bit, and then declared it to be unsafe. We locals, did our usual butt sliding, vegetation belay methods that we used everyday, and all made it down to the road without injury.
> 
> Anyway, it seems like the policy is let it burn, until it starts heading where we don't want it, and then try to control it by throwing a lot more money at it than it would have cost if it was taken care of when small.
> 
> It sounds like fire season will end this weekend anyway.


----------



## mile9socounty

FSburt said:


> *Your right on a few points here SLOWP we have become a way more safety oriented and less aggresive towards fire suppression than in yrs past.*



Not for us on the State side. The land owners and timber owners pay up to very agressive towards fires. I think so far this season, our largest fire has been 4 acres. Though we haven't had much of a fire season. Which means the local folks are listening. Good on them. Winters we do a lot of contracts for the BLM to cut buffers around their property and private land owners. Precaution. But that is it, not actual thinning on the BLM's land.


----------



## slowp

I believe many districts, and the Wenatchee Okanogan in a big time way, decided to get out of as much timber harvest as they could. They had the big timber/engineering purge in the 1990s. One forest supervisor, who was on a coastal forest gleefully announced that "we are getting out of the timber business", and explained how timber people would be moved and put into different jobs. Unfortunately for her, the election changed things just a little bit, and a timber target still had to be met.

Great ideas abound for fuels treatment or "restoration". But they seldom get beyond the ideas. The most economical method is to have a timber sale, but that is not a politically correct thing to do. So, we'll continue to have big fires when we have dry conditions. There are not many foresters in the Forest Service anymore. 

Unfortunately, the major population centers did not get too much of the smoke. The Wenatchee area has no political clout and I doubt if there are enough people who understand fuels treatment to try to have that option restored. 

What with budget cutting being so popular, I do not see anything happening on the federal lands, except around Ft. Lewis...where they can still manage the ground.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> What with budget cutting being so popular, I do not see anything happening on the federal lands, except around Ft. Lewis...where they can still manage the ground.



You better believe we're doing all we can to hold on to that privilege. Even the Army itself seems to have a hundred ways to shut us down.


----------



## ForestBound

I've been workin on Ft.Lewis/McChord. They definitely keep their land tidy in most spots. They were doing RX burns while it was 95 out. The fires do nothing to the 40"+ Doug's and Ponderosa


----------



## slowp

The Monsoon approacheth: 

.HEAVY RAIN POSSIBLE ACROSS WESTERN WASHINGTON THIS WEEKEND
THROUGH EARLY NEXT WEEK...

A PATTERN CHANGE WILL BRING WET WEATHER BACK TO WESTERN
WASHINGTON FRIDAY THROUGH THE WEEKEND AFTER A PROLONGED DRY SPELL.
WEAK WEATHER SYSTEMS WILL AFFECT THE AREA ON FRIDAY AND SATURDAY
WITH WIDESPREAD MEASURABLE RAINFALL EXPECTED. A STRONGER SYSTEM
WILL THEN STEER HEAVY RAIN INTO THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST LATE SATURDAY
NIGHT THROUGH POSSIBLY AS LATE AS MONDAY NIGHT.

IF THE FORECAST MODELS ARE CORRECT...THIS WILL BE THE FIRST
SIGNIFICANT STORM OF THE SEASON. SOME FORECAST MODELS SHOW SEVERAL
INCHES OF RAIN IN THE MOUNTAINS WITH SHARP RISES EXPECTED ON THE
RIVERS. THE OLYMPICS MAY SEE 4 TO 8 INCHES OF RAIN THROUGH MONDAY
NIGHT...WITH 2 TO 5 INCHES POSSIBLE IN THE CASCADES. AS FOR THE
LOWLANDS...THE COAST MAY SEE 1 TO 4 INCHES...WITH 1 TO 2 INCHES OF
RAIN IN THE INTERIOR.

BREEZY TO WINDY CONDITIONS ARE ALSO FORECAST OVER THIS PERIOD. THE
COAST AND NORTH INTERIOR ARE LIKELY TO BE THE WINDIEST LOCATIONS.

MODELS HAVE NOT PINNED DOWN THE EXACT STORM TRACK SO THERE ARE
SOME UNCERTAINTIES IN THE TIMING AND IMPACTS OF THIS SYSTEM. MONITOR
FORECASTS FROM THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE FOR THE LATEST UPDATES.

$$


----------



## madhatte

Bring it on! 

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express


----------



## Gologit

Send some of that rain down here. Not too much...just enough get us out of the red zone.


----------



## slowp

It has to clean out the smoke in our valley first. Cough cough. It isn't horrible, but I'm tired of the smell.
I'm ready for the smell of mildew to replace it.


----------



## FSburt

There are not many foresters in the Forest Service anymore. 

This is one of the main reasons we are beginning to see a big decline in the ability to put up sensible projects because or folks now have very little experience with project planning and layout so we end up with muliple problems with our sales not being layed out on to maximize the available ground especially cable ground in which we have thousands of acres of this with tons of 80-100 yr second growth stands sitting around 300-400 basal area with no plans to do anything but let it sit there and eventually die or burn up in a fire. The argument we always get from our Silviculturist and Forest TMO is cable logging is too expensive for thinning and it would not allow for a positive sale. Us younger folks have argued left and right to mix in some tractor ground with this cable ground to help offset the higher costs but these guys have now convinced our ranger to the point that this is the first thing out of his mouth when we start plannng a project with harvesting. Most of our tractor ground sales only averages around 4- 5 k bf /acre removed due to our whole district being in pacific fisher habitat so I figure that kind of limited volume would curtail using more expensive systems. On nearby private ground where they are cable logging they are pulling off around 8-10 K per acre which seems to be enough volume to cut. Oh well "jus load the wagon" is what i say we get it done.


----------



## madhatte

Well, I guess that means our fire season is over. Cool. Now we can start cleaning up the political mess we made. It's the same every year.


----------



## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> Well, I guess that means our fire season is over. Cool. Now we can start cleaning up the political mess we made. It's the same every year.



I just got back from Mt. Adams. All that sub-Alpine timber on the south slope is fried good.


----------



## slowp

Jacob J. said:


> I just got back from Mt. Adams. All that sub-Alpine timber on the south slope is fried good.



Well, you sure took your time! We folks nearby have had to put up with that smoke for long enough. 

Sounds like there will be huckleberries in the future. Now the FS is putting warnings about mudslides in the newspaper. Such scary times.:rolleyes2:


----------



## Jacob J.

They tried to get that Huckleberry restoration burn on Sawtooth mountain done while I was there but DNR wouldn't give smoke clearance.


----------



## floyd

Did that Clear Ck fire make it to all the dead pine on the rez?


----------



## slowp

floyd said:


> Did that Clear Ck fire make it to all the dead pine on the rez?



Don't think so. Keeping the fire off the reservation was one of their top priorities. 

I think fire season is over.

http://skiwhitepass.com/images/user/current.jpg


----------



## madhatte

could still flare up

vigilance 24/7


----------



## MEATSAW

*It has begun...*

Well this week kicked off my wildland firefighting career. One day down and at the end of the day Friday I hope to be Texas' newest FFT2. Just in time to hopefully get a couple prescribed burns under my belt this winter. Excited... Now back to MNF and beer.


----------



## madhatte

You burning with TNC? I know a few of the Texas folks from the RX310 class they put on here a couple of years ago.


----------



## MEATSAW

I'm with TPWD. We also work a lot with TFS


----------



## 2dogs

California has just sent out notices recruiting Hazard Tree Faller vendors. Classes start early February. The class schedule is online.


----------



## Jacob J.

2dogs said:


> California has just sent out notices recruiting Hazard Tree Faller vendors. Classes start early February. The class schedule is online.



I wonder if Northwest Timber Fallers is going to be a player this year. I've heard rumors they're thinking of getting out of it.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> California has just sent out notices recruiting Hazard Tree Faller vendors. Classes start early February. The class schedule is online.



Could you post a link?


----------



## twochains

2dogs said:


> California has just sent out notices recruiting Hazard Tree Faller vendors. Classes start early February. The class schedule is online.



How obtainable is this...meaning, do the positions get filled quickly? Where would I find info say on a National basis, for the up coming fire season?


----------



## Jacob J.

twochains said:


> How obtainable is this...meaning, do the positions get filled quickly? Where would I find info say on a National basis, for the up coming fire season?



The national fire contracting specialists are at BIFC (Boise Interagency Fire Center.) If you were to call there, someone can route you to the appropriate contracting officer. 

They sign up fallers as singles or as modules. As long as you have your numbers up (Tax ID, appropriate business license or contractor's license- whatever your state uses,) broadform, 
and OWCP account- you're good to go. I've helped several tender owner/operators get signed and one portable saw shop.


----------



## forestryworks

Jacob J. said:


> I wonder if Northwest Timber Fallers is going to be a player this year. I've heard rumors they're thinking of getting out of it.



I talked to Ken early summer '12 and he said they had shut down NWTF; which is a shame, as NWTF's business/faller model is way better than USFS's A,B,C Faller model.


----------



## twochains

Thank you for the info. I am going to p.m. you...


----------



## Jacob J.

forestryworks said:


> I talked to Ken early summer '12 and he said they had shut down NWTF; which is a shame, as NWTF's business/faller model is way better than USFS's A,B,C Faller model.



I figured it was something like that. I had several friends that were in modules with NWTF and during last fire season, they were all going out as singles or independent pairs. One guy I used to cut with that was in NWTF since the beginning didn't even go on fires this year.


----------



## ROME K/G

*Fire Man*

Made the fire man happy lol! This was a large brush pile i dozed together and was tighting up at night with a D7.


----------



## 2dogs

Yesterday was out annual safety class for Hired Vendors. As always the class was fast paced and informative. And required for fallers and others. 

CAL FIRE - Home


----------



## Metals406

JJ, how lucrative is the mobile saw shop thing?


----------



## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> JJ, how lucrative is the mobile saw shop thing?



There was a mobile saw shop guy from south of here, like maybe San Luis Obispo, somewhere near the LPF anyway. I think he did OK chasing fires. You would have to be ready to be gone from July till November. You would have to have a contract with USFS I think.


----------



## Jacob J.

Metals406 said:


> JJ, how lucrative is the mobile saw shop thing?



It depends on what you're licensed to sell and repair. The Stihl guy on the Castle Rock fire was grossing around $1900/day. That was about $600/day in sales, $3-400/day in service, and then the $900/day rate for availability and having his equipment committed to the fire. How much did he actually make? He wouldn't say. The daily rate means you're staffing a service trailer and you're available or you have someone available to the firefighters for 15-15.5 hours every day. Most of the sales are small parts, chain, air & fuel filters- rinky dink stuff. He did sell a few units though on the fire over the course of 24 days, probably 20 units; ranging from MS-260s to MS-660s. He had one partner and they staffed the trailer in rotating shifts. 

The Husky guy on the Tiller Complex wasn't quite making as much on sales but he made a lot more on service. It was a bigger fire with a longer-term rehab plan and he was there for 45 days. He also got many more unit sales, around 110. He also sold about 60 rolls of chain total. He had two full-time guys on the fire with him. He said he grossed about 70k for the one fire. 

The set-up on the Tyee fire in 1994 was much different; that was a huge campaign fire and with rehab, lasted almost three months. The Forest Service set-up self-service stations with solvent tanks, work benches w/vises, and air hoses for the sawyers. They had both a local Stihl shop and a mobile Stihl/Husky vendor from Wenatchee on the fire. Those sold a lot of new saws, especially during the rehab. It was like cutting on Mt. St. Helens after the blast. 



2dogs said:


> There was a mobile saw shop guy from south of here, like maybe San Luis Obispo, somewhere near the LPF anyway. I think he did OK chasing fires. You would have to be ready to be gone from July till November. You would have to have a contract with USFS I think.



Yeah, you do a pre season agreement like the fallers used to do. There's set rates for everything and you provide a list of services, repairs, and sales you're capable of.


----------



## 2dogs

IIRC most of the guy's sales and service were chain related. Lots of grinding.


----------



## 2dogs

Last night I had to drive another 40+ miles to sign the new radio usage agreement. While we were there Cal Fire informed us CHP would be checking runners and other vendors for their Motor Carrier Permit. So if a runner, driving her Ford Explorer, delivers a part to an agency or vendor they will be stopped (and searched) for an MCP check. This is on an active fire. No MCP means a citation and a fine. Apparently CHP is jealous of Cal Fire and will watch fires very closely.

In addition water tenders will likely be stopped and their water level will be checked. If the WT has no level line painted on it then it will be weighed. Any WT better have balls in the tank. Citations will be issued and fines will have to be paid.

I don't think Cal Fire will pay for a pilot car for dozer transports. Next year they probably will. I think any pilot cars will have to be a Dozer Tender with a sign. I could be wrong here.

Fallers are still a module of one person. I will only go to work with a second faller or a swamper. The swamper only gets $20.00 an hour so they are fairly easy to sell to Cal Fire.

The State government here in California seems to want to destroy business with constant new laws and regulations along with permit fees, citations, and fines. If you move to California don't ever own a flatbed truck like a pickup or a 1 ton dually. You will get stopped and cited. And in my experience you will never find a CHP officer who can explain the MCP process.

BTW fallers are issued radios by Cal Fire. Otherwise you can spend nearly $1.5K on 1 portable.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Last night I had to drive another 40+ miles to sign the new radio usage agreement. While we were there Cal Fire informed us CHP would be checking runners and other vendors for their Motor Carrier Permit. So if a runner, driving her Ford Explorer, delivers a part to an agency or vendor they will be stopped (and searched) for an MCP check. This is on an active fire. No MCP means a citation and a fine. Apparently CHP is jealous of Cal Fire and will watch fires very closely.
> 
> In addition water tenders will likely be stopped and their water level will be checked. If the WT has no level line painted on it then it will be weighed. Any WT capable of carrying more than water than legal load weight better have balls in the tank. Citations will be issued and fines will have to be paid.
> 
> I don't think Cal Fire will pay for a pilot car for dozer transports. Next year they probably will. I think any pilot cars will have to be a Dozer Tender with a sign. I could be wrong here.
> 
> Fallers are still a module of one person. I will only go to work with a second faller or a swamper. The swamper only gets $20.00 an hour so they are fairly easy to sell to Cal Fire.
> 
> The State government here in California seems to want to destroy business with constant new laws and regulations along with permit fees, citations, and fines. If you move to California don't ever own a flatbed truck like a pickup or a 1 ton dually. You will get stopped and cited. And in my experience you will never find a CHP officer who can explain the MCP process.
> 
> BTW fallers are issued radios by Cal Fire. Otherwise you can spend nearly $2K on 1 portable.



I'll be taking the F-step class on March 3rd. I'll snoop around a little in the meantime and see what the CHP policy is over here. If the runners have to get a MCP it's going to eliminate most of them.

My sister runs her pickup on FS fires...she says it's a better deal than CalFire. CHP, over in this area anyway, has always had a hands-off policy on any vehicle working an active fire.

As far as water tenders being weighed...most of our stuff runs on private ground for water source and delivery. I can't see water tenders as being a high priority for the CHP but stranger things have happened. If the vehicle is patently unsafe or if the driver isn't qualified I can see an area for concern. Otherwise it shouldn't matter.

If they start harassing runners, tenders, and equipment haulers on an active fire I imagine there will be quite a bit of screaming and yelling going on. Our area is still a big enough player in the timber industry that there are many influential voices willing to speak out against such foolishness. 

Let's hope for the best...and an equitable solution. But let's keep our eyes and ears open, too.


----------



## 2dogs

We were also told that the IMT situation will be different this year. The North, my county and above, does not play well with the south. Each zone does things differently but now will have to work together. I don't know how this will play out but stuff flows down hill and vendors are at the bottom.

BTW if more than one runner uses a vehicle they will have to have proof of WC insurance.


----------



## 2dogs

Ericson Air-Crane is buying Evergreen for $250 million. I wonder if the price of helos will go up?


----------



## madhatte

Stand by for Sequester impacts.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Ericson Air-Crane is buying Evergreen for $250 million. I wonder if the price of helos will go up?



Of course. If you need S-64 parts Erickson will be setting the price.


----------



## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> Stand by for Sequester impacts.



From NMAC (National Multi-Agency Coordination group):

All indicators are that government will reduce in size, to match pace with budget reductions, during the next
few years, perhaps at a rate that we’ve not experienced for some time. Agency fire and aviation programs
will not be immune from the cutback measures. The reality is that reduced budgets will impact our
ability to deliver the same level of critical fire management resources as we may have been able to
deliver in the past.

It is likely that fire managers’ requests for resources will not be filled to the same extent as before, as NMAC and the Geographic
Areas make allocations based on a broader landscape perspective.


----------



## 2dogs

The Marine Corp is being gutted. Cody is being transferred to San Jose to be a Motor T Mechanic, which is good news. The bummer is he is being recalled to active duty for 3 months to attend another MOS school, Mechanic. He was told of several options that the Marine Reserves are being "given". One was that the Corp would just drop you and you would lose any and all VA benefits and you would lose the GI bill.

The middle of May he ships out to either North Carolina or back to Missouri.


----------



## Metals406

Jacob J. said:


> From NMAC (National Multi-Agency Coordination group):
> 
> All indicators are that government will reduce in size, to match pace with budget reductions, during the next
> few years, perhaps at a rate that we’ve not experienced for some time. Agency fire and aviation programs
> will not be immune from the cutback measures. The reality is that reduced budgets will impact our
> ability to deliver the same level of critical fire management resources as we may have been able to
> deliver in the past.
> 
> It is likely that fire managers’ requests for resources will not be filled to the same extent as before, as NMAC and the Geographic
> Areas make allocations based on a broader landscape perspective.



What does this mean for your job JJ? :msp_scared:

I just heard that the contractor I was gonna try and sign with lost his HUB status, and will be put dead last for calling. :msp_rolleyes:


----------



## madhatte

These are interesting times, friends... and you know what _that_ means.


----------



## 2dogs

I tend to think fire will be OK.


----------



## madhatte

^
that too


----------



## 2dogs

Yet another nut case volunteer firefighter setting wildland fires. This time pretty close to home for me.
DA: Ex-firefighter set blazes for kicks - SFGate


----------



## 2dogs

BTW it looks like the Fed is finally going to award contracts for VLATs and others. It has been 484 days since the Fed began the bidding process. Disgusting. We all can thank the uproar in Colorado for finally pushing for the contracts to be awarded.


----------



## StihlKiwi

Anyone seen this before?

Common Errors in Fighting Forest Fires (~1942) - YouTube


----------



## 2dogs

StihlKiwi said:


> Anyone seen this before?
> 
> Common Errors in Fighting Forest Fires (~1942) - YouTube



I never have but I like it. The union would have the makers snuffed nowadays.


----------



## Ruster22

I am trying to take my S-130/190 course this spring/summer. I am a NYS resident, volunteer fire fighter, full time student, and aspiring land manager. 
What route do y'all recommend? I know it's late for any real gigs for this summer, but I know of at least one local conservancy that I can do volunteer work. 
Who and how do I get to sponsored? Feds, state, nature conservancy? 

Thanks,
Ru


----------



## Gologit

*Here it comes...*

Panther Fire General Information


This is on SPI ground and close to two major drainages.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Panther Fire General Information
> 
> 
> This is on SPI ground and close to two major drainages.



Word tell is, 'they' are forecasting a bad fire year for AZ/UT, Central OR, E. WA, and So Cal.

We're now moving from record setting cold to end April & start May, to above average temps in the 70°'s. How long those temps last, who knows?

Last year, we went some 52 days in a row with no moisture. . . No natural weather events to spark any fires though. Down south was a different story.


----------



## madhatte

Kinda nervous times hereabouts, too, with Sequester driving a looming furlough and seasonal hires up in the air. If DNR are tied up elsewhere, we'll be short and unsupported.


----------



## Gologit

Gologit said:


> Panther Fire General Information
> 
> 
> This is on SPI ground and close to two major drainages.



Looks like the boys will be cutting black timber for awhile:


Panther Fire General Information


----------



## slowp

I just got home and a friend called and asked about a fire. I went to the most reliable source for our backwoods place, a blog. This is very close to home! We had a day of very gusty wind here.

_Breaking news: Large brush fire burning south of Glenoma
Saturday, May 4, 2013 at 6:25 pm


Looking toward Dog Mountain from Falls Road. / Courtesy photo by Miriam DeShasier

Updated at 7:09 p.m. and 8:33 p.m.

By Sharyn L. Decker
Lewis County Sirens news reporter

A large wind-fueled wildfire that started east of Morton this afternoon has spread and is still growing.

Seven fire departments plus firefighters from the state department of Natural Resources are on the scene on Dog Mountain, at the east end of Riffe Lake.

Various reports have suggested the blaze is as large as 200 to 700 acres, but a spokesperson from DNR said the fire was within a 100-acre perimeter but very patchy and spotty.

Only about 10 acres is actually fire, Karen Ripley of DNR said after speaking with the incident commander about 7 p.m.

“There’s a lot of fuel in the area, but not a lot of it has dried out” Ripley said.

Ripley said the Dog Mountain Fire on land owned by Port Blakely is in an area both recently logged and with 8-year-old trees.

Lt. Laura Hanson from Lewis County Fire District 5 said the initial call came in at 1:22 p.m. More than 50 firefighters are working the fire, according to Hanson.

The Taidnapam Park area has been evacuated, but no structures are threatened, according to Hanson.

The incident commander told Ripley the wind is beginning to die down.

Dog Mountain, just south of Glenoma, is known as a favorite spot for hang gliders.

Miriam DeShasier, who lives in Glenoma, took a drive down Falls Road this afternoon and said it appears the east side of Dog Mountain was burning.

“A lot of the smoke is gone from the area now,” DeShasier said this evening._


----------



## forestryworks

Got this forwarded to me in an email this morning from a USFS friend. Some of you fire guys have probably already seen it. But it has good information, even if you aren't a wildland firefighter.

Stay cool and safe!

Heat Related Illness - 2013 Refresher
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/s0bMrQANY-E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## madhatte

It's early enough in the season that WA isn't listed at all on Inciweb, yet here we have two ICT3 fires, with almost 200 crewmembers committed. 

And then there's this: 



> Fire Weather Forecast for WAZ657
> 
> 
> FNUS56 KSEW 031547
> FWFSEW
> 
> FIRE WEATHER PLANNING FORECAST FOR WESTERN WASHINGTON
> NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SEATTLE WA
> 847 AM PDT FRI MAY 3 2013
> 
> ...UNSEASONABLY WARM AND DRY THROUGH THIS WEEKEND...
> 
> .DISCUSSION....AN UPPER RIDGE WILL BRING DRY WEATHER WITH A WARMING
> TREND THROUGH THE WEEKEND. WEAK ONSHORE FLOW WILL DEVELOP EARLY NEXT
> WEEK FOR A BIT OF COOLING. DESPITE A LITTLE COOLING ON MONDAY AND
> TUESDAY...ABOVE NORMAL TEMPERATURES WILL LIKELY CONTINUE THROUGH
> NEXT WEEK. NO RAIN IS EXPECTED FOR THE NEXT 7 DAYS.
> 
> FORECAST FOR 20 FOOT WIND SPEED (VALLEYS AND RIDGE TOPS) ARE 10
> MINUTE AVERAGES REFLECTING RAWS WINDS.
> 
> WAZ654>657-032330-
> WESTERN WASHINGTON FIRE WEATHER ZONES 654-655-656-657
> AREA 4...INTERIOR LOWLANDS-
> 847 AM PDT FRI MAY 3 2013
> 
> .TODAY...
> * SKY/WEATHER..........SUNNY.
> * CHANCE OF PRECIP.....0%.
> * MAX TEMPERATURE......67-77.
> * MIN HUMIDITY.........24-39 PERCENT.
> * 20-FOOT WINDS........NORTH WINDS 3 TO 8 MPH.
> * MIXING HEIGHT........2500-3500 FT AGL.
> * TRANSPORT WINDS......NORTH AROUND 10 MPH.
> 
> .TONIGHT...
> * SKY/WEATHER..........CLEAR.
> * CHANCE OF PRECIP.....0%.
> * MIN TEMPERATURE......38-48.
> * MAX HUMIDITY.........72-87 PERCENT.
> * 20-FOOT WINDS........NORTHEAST WINDS 4 TO 7 MPH.
> * MIXING HEIGHT........300-1200 FT AGL.
> * TRANSPORT WINDS......NORTH AROUND 10 MPH.
> 
> .SATURDAY...
> * SKY/WEATHER..........SUNNY.
> * CHANCE OF PRECIP.....0%.
> * MAX TEMPERATURE......69-79.
> * MIN HUMIDITY.........20-35 PERCENT.
> * 20-FOOT WINDS........NORTHEAST WINDS 4 TO 7 MPH.
> * MIXING HEIGHT........2700 FT AGL INCREASING TO 7500 FT AGL IN THE
> AFTERNOON.
> * TRANSPORT WINDS......NORTHEAST 10 TO 15 MPH.



It's not too late to have a wet June. It is, however, a very bad start to a fire season in an especially-bad budget-crunch year. I'm kind of curious how DNR managed to scramble that large a crew this early. I'm guessing convict crews? Most of the Type 2 handcrew types are still in school.


----------



## 333.okh

Northern California here...we have had several starts. All of them are either arson or marijuana growers burning slashings from prepping their grow areas. In Humboldt County they do nothing if its private lands...Pot itself might be argued as to good versus harm, but the growing techniques used, the people it draws to our communities, and the environmental damage is gross.

What they do to the lands to grow far exceeds anything USFS or Private Timber is allowed to do. Funny the very people who tried to stop logging and said grow hemp are now destroying the lands even worse than logging. They are actually logging more acres to grow dope than they let the USFS cut. Get on GOOGLE Earth and looks at the grows and green houses in the hills near Willow Creek California and Dinsmore California....

Both used to be logging towns, but now just dope. All see Weed Country and Pot Cops....almost all shot there.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> It's not too late to have a wet June. It is, however, a very bad start to a fire season in an especially-bad budget-crunch year. I'm kind of curious how DNR managed to scramble that large a crew this early. I'm guessing convict crews? Most of the Type 2 handcrew types are still in school.



The Dog Mtn. fire is surrounded by roads and started by a local family's place. They just happen to have a construction business and had equipment. He and boys dozed a line around their place and the neighbor's and then went to work with the state crews. That may have helped quite a bit. 

Saw an empty lowboy headed away this morning so I imagine they got more equipment in. I'm about to load up the Used Dog and will see if we can get to the traditional dog wetting down spot. That's within a couple miles by road, of where the fire is. 

The wind has died down.

Rumor has it that the cause was target shooters with tracer bullets. The area was logged a year ago so the slash would be quite ready to burn.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> Rumor has it that the cause was target shooters with tracer bullets.



Oh, like THAT could actually start a fire. (HA-WINKITY)


----------



## slowp

I know nothing about such fancy things.

Nothing could be seen from the lake. However, my boy launched off the dock for the first time. He has always kind of stumbled off until today. He was in touch with his Labness.


----------



## forestryworks

Dog Mountain Fire info
http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/05/06/spring-season-fire-in-washington-burns-100-acres/


----------



## Metals406

forestryworks said:


> Dog Mountain Fire info
> Spring season fire in Washington burns 100 acres. | Wildfire Today



That's a large fire, for this early, on the "Wet coast". :msp_mellow:


----------



## paccity

had a 40 acre fire up by owl's place sunday. mostly in a clearcut and some thinned . but we had that damn east wind ripping over 30.


----------



## Metals406

paccity said:


> had a 40 acre fire up by owl's place sunday. mostly in a clearcut and some thinned . but we had that damn east wind ripping over 30.



Maybe I'll get on some fires this year? opcorn:


----------



## forestryworks

Metals406 said:


> Maybe I'll get on some fires this year? opcorn:



Coulda came and played on this rx fire. Plenty for you to cut during mop up 







Put up one hell of a smoke column with the head fire, though the pic doesn't do it justice. And it rained soon as we finished mop up. Good timing!


----------



## paccity

don't know if anyones interested but this is local. lot of 4 Wajax fire fighter 2 stroke pumps rare!


----------



## Jacob J.

paccity said:


> don't know if anyones interested but this is local. lot of 4 Wajax fire fighter 2 stroke pumps rare!



That's actually not a bad price on four of those. A new Mark III right now averages from around $3700 to $5200 depending on configuration.


----------



## Metals406

paccity said:


> don't know if anyones interested but this is local. lot of 4 Wajax fire fighter 2 stroke pumps rare!




I know the chief of the South Kal. Fire Dept.

This island should be soaking wet this early. They admit they need some porty-pumps in the trucks for these type situations, without relying on DNR or another agency.

Those Wajax pumps aren't super "portable", but they'd certainly be able to establish a good trunk and secondaries.

Blaze started close to tent, propane tank - Daily Inter Lake:


----------



## slowp

Oregon smokejumpers skydive into illegal pot garden | Offbeat | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News


----------



## 2dogs

2dogs said:


> The Marine Corp is being gutted. Cody is being transferred to San Jose to be a Motor T Mechanic, which is good news. The bummer is he is being recalled to active duty for 3 months to attend another MOS school, Mechanic. He was told of several options that the Marine Reserves are being "given". One was that the Corp would just drop you and you would lose any and all VA benefits and you would lose the GI bill.
> 
> The middle of May he ships out to either North Carolina or back to Missouri.



Cody leaves for NC at 06:15 tomorrow 15MAY1013.

BTW we were called as faller/swamper 2 weeks ago but the request was for a C Faller which I am not. I pointed out that there is no C Faller designation with vendors but that fell on deaf ears. I have asked for an investigation but I have not had a return phone call from Cal Fire as of yet. I am certain I will.


----------



## madhatte

Jacob J. said:


> A new Mark III right now averages from around $3700 to $5200 depending on configuration.



Those look to be single-stage centrifugal pumps. I like the 4-stage Wajax/Wildfire pumps way better because I have a supply of new/used/rebuildable ones to replace the ones on slips/Mk3's already in use. The pumps alone go for better than a grand. We have had trouble with the single-stage Darleys; we still have two in service but I saved 3 gear reductions from the old rigs to do upgrades when the Darleys kick the bucket. They move water just fine but they cavitate easily and can't withstand the loss of a single stage the way the 4-stage pumps can. I'd like them way better if they were PTO-driven by the vehicle engine and therefore 2 feet below the bottom of the tank. As it is, they sit almost a foot up and each one we've lost has been because somebody forgot to check the prime. You will have to buy me a beer to get me to tell the story of why we have orphan Darleys in a Wajax fleet.


----------



## Gologit

*2dogs*

Tell Cody "good luck" and that we thank him for his service.

On that CalFire C-faller thing...was that at a local level or did they wait 'til you got to the fire to let you know?

When we did our FSTEP this year there was no mention of any C-faller rules for CalFire. What's happening with CalFire anyway? Trying to get a straight answer, other than NO, from them is getting to be almost impossible.


----------



## Steve NW WI

Cheeseland isn't really known for big wildfires, but 9000 acres are up in smoke about 2 hours north of me. High temps and strong winds yesterday contributed to make it the largest wildfire in WI in 33 years. It's already 90% contained according to the news.

Nothern MN has a smaller fire going on as well, about 150 miles from the Douglas county fire.

Thanks to those of you that put it on the line out there.

One good thing will likely be some phenomenal hunting in the years to come up there. Friends have a hunting shack less than 10 miles from the fire site.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=wVu0thzDelSqg_eiUIsWTw&bvm=bv.46471029,d.dmg


----------



## Jacob J.

2dogs said:


> Cody leaves for NC at 06:15 tomorrow 15MAY1013.
> 
> BTW we were called as faller/swamper 2 weeks ago but the request was for a C Faller which I am not. I pointed out that there is no C Faller designation with vendors but that fell on deaf ears. I have asked for an investigation but I have not had a return phone call from Cal Fire as of yet. I am certain I will.



That's ridiculous- I've never heard of a requirement for a contractor to be a C faller. Calfire is on a serious decline into a morass of red tape.


----------



## RandyMac

Jacob J. said:


> That's ridiculous- I've never heard of a requirement for a contractor to be a C faller. Calfire is on a serious decline into a morass of red tape.



Yeah no kidding. I have been sent 4 separate billings (extortion) from CalFire, I paid the first one on time, they ignored the fact I live within city limits.


----------



## polkat

Steve NW WI said:


> Cheeseland isn't really known for big wildfires, but 9000 acres are up in smoke about 2 hours north of me. High temps and strong winds yesterday contributed to make it the largest wildfire in WI in 33 years. It's already 90% contained according to the news.
> 
> Nothern MN has a smaller fire going on as well, about 150 miles from the Douglas county fire.
> 
> Thanks to those of you that put it on the line out there.
> 
> One good thing will likely be some phenomenal hunting in the years to come up there. Friends have a hunting shack less than 10 miles from the fire site.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=wVu0thzDelSqg_eiUIsWTw&bvm=bv.46471029,d.dmg




it was the real deal lots of little lakes with lots of cabins and homes sprinkled, i didnt get in on action but would have today if things were still out of control. wasnt too far off to the east of our area 8 miles as the crow flies. holefully mop up will go good for them and mabye a little rain this weekend will sure help. the deer hunting could be great even this year..


----------



## forestryworks

Steve NW WI said:


> One good thing will likely be some phenomenal hunting in the years to come up there.



The best hunting grounds are the ones managed with fire.


----------



## paccity

forestryworks said:


> The best hunting grounds are the ones managed with fire.



the native tribes had been doing it for thousands of years.


----------



## forestryworks

paccity said:


> the native tribes had been doing it for thousands of years.



Yup, and we're still trying to learn from them. It also tells me there's no such thing as wilderness - at least not in the last 12,000+ years or so.


----------



## Joe46

Speaking of wilderness. Was just on a small cruise boat in Alaska. We were in the Endicott Arm near the Dawes Glacier. The boat could not use the speaker system because we were in a 'wilderness" area.


----------



## FSburt

Jacob J. said:


> That's ridiculous- I've never heard of a requirement for a contractor to be a C faller. Calfire is on a serious decline into a morass of red tape.



Hi Jacob hey I know Cal Fire is setting up their Chainsaw program that mirrors the Federal side with the same quals and process for their employees. I know in the past our local unit asked their falling contractor to demonstrate his skills falling some trees during a saw recert class but not totally sure why since he was a private contractor and like the FS we do not require contractors to be C fallers. This program is just for employees of the agency unless they would be brought on as a AD Faller which pays at the A,B, or C rates and are considered employees so they would have to be carded as such. Most faller I know that work on fires usually sign up as a falling module and get into the contracting system. 
Judging from the way the fires are starting down here in So Cal I think you guys will be in high demand this year especially if all of California begins to burn like Northern Cal did last yr.


----------



## forestryworks

*Colorado Springs FD Structure Protection video*

Got this from the "Wildfire Today" website.

Who in the hell thinks it's a good idea to ring their home with a layer of mulch? When will these homeowners realize they live in a fire dependent ecosystem? Thinning trees is just a first step, and in extreme cases, does nothing to save your home.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/68342641" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/68342641">Black Forest Structure Protection</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/coloradosprings">City of Colorado Springs</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>


----------



## 2dogs

forestryworks said:


> Got this from the "Wildfire Today" website.
> 
> Who in the hell thinks it's a good idea to ring their home with a layer of mulch? When will these homeowners realize they live in a fire dependent ecosystem? Thinning trees is just a first step, and in extreme cases, does nothing to save your home.
> 
> <iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/68342641" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/68342641">Black Forest Structure Protection</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/coloradosprings">City of Colorado Springs</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>




Did you read about the fish starting a fire in SD?


----------



## RandyMac

2dogs said:


> Did you read about the fish starting a fire in SD?



Yeah, Tud told me.


----------



## slowp

The folks who have the house could have raked it off fairly easily into a smoulder pile. 

You might be posting how dumb I am if we ever have a fire. I've not pruned or thinned much. Our fire history is one biggie every 300 or so years. I value the privacy the vegetation provides. I do get nervous when a dry August occurs.

I think the neighbor that burned garbage year round may have been a participant in last week's meth bust. That worried me sometimes when we were dry around here.


----------



## forestryworks

2dogs said:


> Did you read about the fish starting a fire in SD?



Yes. Bizarre.


----------



## Tasso

Hey guys, I hope you don't mind me butting into the conversation. I just got back from the Black Forest fire and on the topic of mitigation what really surprised me was how many standalone houses there were. I've never seen so many. I was in a very rich subdivision most of the time and it showed in what they spent on mitigation efforts. The whole subdivision was mitigated and lolli-popped and all the chips were even hauled instead of broadcast. To make it real interesting, you'd turn the corner and suddenly you were in West Virginia with cars and junk piled up everywhere. The difference in the rate of attrition was amazing. And there was some seriously weird fire behavior going on. Ultimately it was one of those fires where you go home knowing without a doubt that you made a difference.

P.S. The National Guard pilots are freaking cowboys, I've never been so consistently afraid of being dropped on... made for good pictures though.


----------



## dooby

Tasso said:


> Hey guys, I hope you don't mind me butting into the conversation. I just got back from the Black Forest fire and on the topic of mitigation what really surprised me was how many standalone houses there were. I've never seen so many. I was in a very rich subdivision most of the time and it showed in what they spent on mitigation efforts. The whole subdivision was mitigated and lolli-popped and all the chips were even hauled instead of broadcast. To make it real interesting, you'd turn the corner and suddenly you were in West Virginia with cars and junk piled up everywhere. The difference in the rate of attrition was amazing. And there was some seriously weird fire behavior going on. Ultimately it was one of those fires where you go home knowing without a doubt that you made a difference.
> 
> P.S. The National Guard pilots are freaking cowboys, I've never been so consistently afraid of being dropped on... made for good pictures though.



opcorn:


----------



## FSburt

For those out there who want to see what a fuelbed of mastication burns like take a look at the pics of the Carstens Fire during the backfire operation. I am the district fuels officer so I wanted to see how this stuff burns during a wildfire condition and wow this stuff is something fierce. Not like we did not expect it to burn hot though just when you actually see it in action it is pretty eye opening. View attachment 301764
View attachment 301765
View attachment 301766
View attachment 301767
View attachment 301768


----------



## 2dogs

FSburt said:


> For those out there who want to see what a fuelbed of mastication burns like take a look at the pics of the Carstens Fire during the backfire operation. I am the district fuels officer so I wanted to see how this stuff burns during a wildfire condition and wow this stuff is something fierce. Not like we did not expect it to burn hot though just when you actually see it in action it is pretty eye opening. View attachment 301764
> View attachment 301765
> View attachment 301766
> View attachment 301767
> View attachment 301768



What month did the masticator work this area?


----------



## warejn

Masticated fuels are a heck of a thing. We tried burning a masticated unit in 05 and it was dubbed prescribed suppression. The test fire went ok ( I was on a hand crew, so we were just lighting) and then the first strips went big. We caught it at 10 acres. 

There are a few people up at MTDC and CSU trying to work up new fuel models and runs for masticated fuels. The ERC on the fuels doesn't really match up with much that is out there in normal documentation. 

They sure are fun to light though.


----------



## Tasso

Since you went to the trouble to get your popcorn out I'll post a couple pictures. No close up fire shots (no time for cell phone), but here's some sittin' around shots. Basically, DC-10s lay down a lot of slurry and Chinook pilots like to blow stuff around with downdraft.

View attachment 301860
View attachment 301861
View attachment 301862
View attachment 301863


----------



## Tasso

Might as well photo dump, here's a couple more from High Park last year. First one is the blow up that eventually killed Glacier View subdivision, sorry for gooning the picture up. :rolleyes2: Next is a night burn. Then the pleasures of night shift: Yeah we got to sleep inside, but it was so hot in the CSU dorms that my phone was sweating.

View attachment 301864
View attachment 301865
View attachment 301866


----------



## warejn

Here's a few from Black Forest a few weeks ago.View attachment 301882
View attachment 301883
View attachment 301884


We found a photographer who hung out with us for the first 20 hours or so. It was kinda cool to get pictures of us working.


----------



## FSburt

2dogs said:


> What month did the masticator work this area?



Hey Dogs this area was masticated with a FECON head in the winter of 2011. The age did not matter though with the fire's first run cranked over a unit that was masticated in 2002. We are currently in the 95th percentile ERC levels right now for fire danger so this fuelbed will be extremely vulnerable during the critical mid to late summer months of August and Sept.


----------



## forestryworks

I read where 1,000hr. fuels in CO are at 4-10%. That is bone dry.


----------



## 2dogs

I was working around my house yesterday and I knew it was humid so I spun my psychrometer. Wet bulb 66 degrees, dry bulb 65 degrees, dew point 65 degrees. The air looked like non-fat milk. I hope to dries out.


----------



## dooby

Tasso said:


> Since you went to the trouble to get your popcorn out I'll post a couple pictures. No close up fire shots (no time for cell phone), but here's some sittin' around shots. Basically, DC-10s lay down a lot of slurry and Chinook pilots like to blow stuff around with downdraft.
> 
> View attachment 301860
> View attachment 301861
> View attachment 301862
> View attachment 301863



I guess by popcorn i ment ready and waiting.... will try to post pisc of type 6 firetruck later this evening. Some have been dispatched already. We are at the bottom of the list,to get resourced that is.


----------



## madhatte

Awright, now I'm annoyed.


----------



## Gologit

And...?


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> And...?



he is a bit on the short side.


----------



## Gologit

True. But he does have other redeeming characteristics.


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> True. But he does have other redeeming characteristics.



Don't know, seems to have a memory problem.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Don't know, seems to have a memory problem.



Short memory?


----------



## slowp

It is merely the start of the annual "Something should be done" season. It goes away around October or November. :coffee:


----------



## madhatte

I do not remember any of this.


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> Short memory?



Yes, short memory.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Yes, short memory.



Please note that I said "redeeming characteristics" and not "redeeming qualities".


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> Please note that I said "redeeming characteristics" and not "redeeming qualities".



needs a haircut, looking like a BLM employee.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> needs a haircut, looking like a BLM employee.



Oooooh...that's just cold.


----------



## madhatte

RandyMac said:


> needs a haircut, looking like a BLM employee.



Aw, man, that stings. I was only ever a BLM contractor...


----------



## Cfaller

warejn said:


> Masticated fuels are a heck of a thing. We tried burning a masticated unit in 05 and it was dubbed prescribed suppression. The test fire went ok ( I was on a hand crew, so we were just lighting) and then the first strips went big. We caught it at 10 acres.
> 
> There are a few people up at MTDC and CSU trying to work up new fuel models and runs for masticated fuels. The ERC on the fuels doesn't really match up with much that is out there in normal documentation.
> 
> They sure are fun to light though.



We had a fire last summer run into a unit of masticated P pine and it slowed it down some. I would think it would act like a FM 11.


----------



## Tasso

forestryworks said:


> I read where 1,000hr. fuels in CO are at 4-10%. That is bone dry.



True story. 100 degrees and 10%rh yesterday. Grass fire along highway 119... bunker gear. Third time I've had to do that, third time it sucked.  

Regarding that article, I've heard natural stand density around Boulder County for the pondo is somewhere near 60 per acre, some places are several thousand per acre... with homes mixed in... and an LAL of 4 on the 4th of July. Job security.

warejn, is that the pounder tool that Supply Cache advertises in one of those pictures? Does it work?

Oh also one of my departments gets a new type 6 delivered tomorrow. Lifted F-550, 36 inch IROK singles on it. I can't wait, I'll post pictures.


----------



## warejn

I think it has a lot to do with the density and moisture of the masticated fuels. They were the issue with the Lower North Fork fire as well. 

Yes, that is one of the JR Fire Tools pounders. We got a box of his tools to demo last year. I have been using it for a full year now. It is a good tool, holds an edge well and sharpens easily. Using it as a pounder is a slightly different story. It does not have the umph for big timber and, even worse, I just found a crack in the head. I have written the company to let them know. If you work as a faller, I still think the FST ( modded Pulaski) is the best. If you work on an engine or rarely have to pound wedges, it is a great tool. The handle is great.


----------



## Tasso

Ya that's sorta what I was worried about when I saw that tool: cool idea, not as cool in real life. Boulder's wildland division is a big fan of the smash-laski. Leave 10 firefighters in a room of tools and you'll get 12 different ideas.

Anyways, I promised pictures of the new brush truck that I helped spec out. F-550 Type 5/6 built by SVI in Fort Collins, 450 gallons, 250gpm high pressure with CAFS, 36 inch IROKs, party time, excellent.

View attachment 302448
View attachment 302449
View attachment 302450
View attachment 302451
View attachment 302452


----------



## forestryworks

Tasso said:


> Ya that's sorta what I was worried about when I saw that tool: cool idea, not as cool in real life. Boulder's wildland division is a big fan of the smash-laski. Leave 10 firefighters in a room of tools and you'll get 12 different ideas.
> 
> Anyways, I promised pictures of the new brush truck that I helped spec out. F-550 Type 5/6 built by SVI in Fort Collins, 450 gallons, 250gpm high pressure with CAFS, 36 inch IROKs, party time, excellent.



Looks pretty snazzy!


----------



## forestryworks

A nice video made by a firefighter in CO on the West Fork Complex.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/69120008?color=ff9933" width="560" height="380" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>


----------



## snapple

I've whored myself out as a faller on wildland fires a few times. It's been my experience that, other than structure protection, the whole thing is a massive waste of time and tax-payer money (but hey, I put a down payment on my property and paid for a new truck in the process). It puts a bunch of folks out in the woods "working" that otherwise wouldn't be there. It's become an industry unto itself. Pretty pathetic for the most part. Flame away but it will fall on deaf ears. I've personally witnessed the BS that goes along with "fighting fire" out in the woods, in three different states.


----------



## Tasso

Free country, to each his own.

Cool video. I have a friend down there right now on a Type 3, can't wait to hear about it. Over here on the Front Range we had over 3,000 lightning strikes in 30 minutes yesterday evening.


----------



## 2dogs

warejn said:


> I think it has a lot to do with the density and moisture of the masticated fuels. They were the issue with the Lower North Fork fire as well.
> 
> Yes, that is one of the JR Fire Tools pounders. We got a box of his tools to demo last year. I have been using it for a full year now. It is a good tool, holds an edge well and sharpens easily. Using it as a pounder is a slightly different story. It does not have the umph for big timber and, even worse, I just found a crack in the head. I have written the company to let them know. If you work as a faller, I still think the FST ( modded Pulaski) is the best. If you work on an engine or rarely have to pound wedges, it is a great tool. The handle is great.



FST? Is that the Pulaski with the round head welded on?


----------



## slowp

Very bad!

19 firefighters killed in Arizona blaze - Chicago Sun-Times


----------



## Gologit

Bad deal.


http://www.foxnews.com/weather/2013/06/30/arizona-fire-prompts-evacuation-120-homes/


----------



## madhatte

I have seen unofficial reports that the death toll is up to 22. This is the worst single incident in US wildfire since South Canyon 1994.

EDIT 1: at this time, 2100 30 Jun 2013, I have not received check-ins from two friends working in that area. Color me worried.

EDIT 2: one has checked in OK

EDIT 3: 18 are from Granite Mt Hotshots, one is from another outfit

EDIT 4: friend who checked in says "Nothing else we know we worked a 30 hour shift all last night as it was blowing up. Got a cell in this afternoon blew it south took the crew out" and "We had 100 ft flames lengths in chapparal and manzanita." and "We talked to the crew this morning before we flew out. Its hard i had a friend on that crew"

EDIT 5: next press conference 1000 MST tomorrow morning

EDIT 6: it appears that the original number of 22 was the "unaccounted for number" before the official release. One of the now-accounted-for was the 'shot who survived because he was moving the truck. Not sure who the two others were.


----------



## Jacob J.

This is a very sad day for firefighters. I went on many fires alongside the Granite Mountain crew- they were always a good bunch and made the best of every assignment.


----------



## 2dogs

Oh no. 19 people won't ever return home.

I haven't seen the details yet but it sounds like they were in dry brush on a hot, low humidity day. We they in direct attack or indirect? Manzanita is so oily it is nearly explosive.

We can all help a little by giving to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Every dollar helps.

http://www.wffoundation.org/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=5


----------



## 1270d

Yarnell Hill Fire: Names of fallen firefighters released


----------



## timberland ts

Makes you stop and think what is important. God bless those who put there lives before all others.


----------



## forestryworks

Sounds eerily similar to South Canyon, which was almost 19 years ago (7/6/1994). Those of you who have not read the book about that fire by John Maclean should do so.


----------



## snapple

Good article in today's Missoulian (newspaper for Missoula, MT) with Maclean. I'll try to put a link in but I'm not sure I have the technical skills...

Wildfires 'going to get worse,' says writer John Maclean


----------



## madhatte

I was just going to mention MacLean. Not to sound insensitive, I do hope he writes a book about this event. I always learn as much from his treatments of casualty fires as I do from the officially-released Incident Reports and "Lessons Learned", largely because he humanizes the events, which helps me to put into perspective what I would have done, and/or what I would have done differently. He does a real service to the Fire Community in that way, so that we have another tool to prevent repeating mistakes.


----------



## paccity




----------



## slowp

I read one rumor where they were sent there to build a safety zone, but the fire blew up before it was done.

I listened to a cat (dozer) guy talk about being on the Dude Fire, which also was in AZ and had fatalities. 
He took a look at the fuels and immediately set about clearing a huge area as his safety zone. Nobody told him to do so. 

He used it later on.


----------



## 1270d

I have many friends who grew up with several of the fallen fire fighters. Good men on all counts.

On a side note. Is john MacLean related to Norman MacLean, who wrote an excellent book called young men and fire?


----------



## snapple

1270d said:


> I have many friends who grew up with several of the fallen fire fighters. Good men on all counts.
> 
> On a side note. Is john MacLean related to Norman MacLean, who wrote an excellent book called young men and fire?




Norman was his dad.


----------



## slowp

Yakima Herald Republic | Residents slowly rebuilding after Taylor Bridge Fire


----------



## snapple

snapple said:


> I've whored myself out as a faller on wildland fires a few times. It's been my experience that, other than structure protection, the whole thing is a massive waste of time and tax-payer money (but hey, I put a down payment on my property and paid for a new truck in the process). It puts a bunch of folks out in the woods "working" that otherwise wouldn't be there. It's become an industry unto itself. Pretty pathetic for the most part. Flame away but it will fall on deaf ears. I've personally witnessed the BS that goes along with "fighting fire" out in the woods, in three different states.



Just wanted to respond (to myself) here. What I wrote makes it sound like I think wildland firefighting is a joke. It most certainly isn't. I was mostly commenting (poorly) on the lack of efficiency that I've seen on fires that I've been a part of. I definitely didn't mean to offend anyone.


----------



## slowp

snapple said:


> Just wanted to respond (to myself) here. What I wrote makes it sound like I think wildland firefighting is a joke. It most certainly isn't. I was mostly commenting (poorly) on the lack of efficiency that I've seen on fires that I've been a part of. I definitely didn't mean to offend anyone.



I came away, in the 1980s, with the same opinion. In fact, it bothered me so much, that seeing what went on, plus having smoke sensitive lungs, made me reluctant to go anymore.


----------



## Fifelaker

This made me sick!! While mourning 19 dead, US again prepares to ax wildfire prevention funds - Investigations


----------



## forestryworks

Budget cuts, even for fire, are the wave of the future, unfortunately. Adding to that, the burden of thinning should not fully rely on federal or state governments' shoulders. Land and homeowners need to take responsibility, too. More so than they have in the past.

However, the Granite Mountain 19 should not have died on that fire. Their deaths were totally unnecessary! No house, no patch of timber, and certainly no endangered wildlife habitat is worth firefighters dying over. That #### can burn to the ground. And it can be easily rebuilt. Those 19 lives lost will _never_ be rebuilt. 

How many South Canyon, Dude, Mann Gulch, and Yarnell Hill fires will it take for people to realize that their material things, when built in a fire-dependent ecosystem, become part of that ecosystem, and will, at some point more than likely burn? Accept it. And when will land and housing developers start being held partly financially responsible for firefighter deaths on wildland incidents? After all, it was their actions that indirectly caused a need for suppression. And when will we stop trying to "save" portions of wild lands that have a tremendous fire deficit? The effects of Smokey Bear's negative legacy are still churning.


----------



## slowp

Another thing to think about. 

Some talking head was writing about "Why weren't the big air tankers called out." 

That is where the wasted money starts. Talk to folks who have called the shots on the big fires. They'll tell tales about how they HAD to order air tankers even when the planes did not do any good because of public pressure. Laypeople think that unless you have expensive air tankers dropping retardent all day, you are not doing all you can to fight the fire. I've heard it over and over, that the IC had to order retardent drops even though it did no good. 

IC is incident commander.


----------



## madhatte

Hrmm, lookit what showed up in my e-mail this morning. It seems a bit early, yet not premature:



WADNR said:


> Effective at 0001 (12:01) on Wednesday, July 17th 2013 the Industrial Fire
> Precaution Level (IFPL) for Zone 659N will be changing to a IFPL 2, Partial
> Hootowl.
> 
> 
> 
> Level 2. Partial Hootowl - The following may operate only between the hours
> of 8 p.m. and 1 p.m. local time:
> 
> =Power saws except at loading sites;
> 
> =Cable yarding;
> 
> =Blasting;
> 
> =Welding or cutting of metal.
> 
> Also effective at 0001 (12:01) on Wednesday July 17th 2013 the Fire Danger
> Rating for King, Kitsap, Pierce, & Mason Counties will move to Moderate.
> Lewis County will remain at a Low.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> Hrmm, lookit what showed up in my e-mail this morning. It seems a bit early, yet not premature:



We're drying out quick!


----------



## dooby

we just got an pre-alert " are you ready" phone call. Any day now our truck should be going out. I won't be on the first few calls, my knee is not solid enough yet. Don't want to become "an incident within an incident". Not that sittin' around would be bad for my knee.LOL. last year we went on a fire and sat in staging for 19 days and the y sent us to anoyher fire to work for 3 1/2 days and sit for 1 more week. Gotta love the planning :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## madhatte

dooby said:


> Don't want to become "an incident within an incident".



I hear that. I just healed a bum knee and then sprained a shoulder. I'm hurtin' but good to go. Gonna baby it a bit, maybe avoid digging and pounding (tweaked the shoulder pounding wedges a couple of weeks ago).


----------



## Gologit

You guys are falling apart!


----------



## slowp

We are at that. I've got to decide if I am healed up or not in order to go on a trail thing Friday. I quit taking vitamin I today. We shall see if I walk normally in the morning. Well, I guess I should say normal for me. 

We got about 6 drops of rain today.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> You guys are falling apart!



Harrumph. I'll admit to "falling apart" when I can't heal any more. I got stuff to do still.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> Harrumph. I'll admit to "falling apart" when I can't heal any more. I got stuff to do still.



Yup. But sometimes the body has it's own agenda. As in, when you're faced with a task that you know you shouldn't do...your mind tells you "go ahead and do that" and your body replies "if you do I'm going to make you pay". And then it does.
Afterwards you're gimping around , encased in plaster, or bandages, or maybe some nice white gauze held firmly in place to hairy areas of your body with that special surgical adhesive tape known only to sadistic nurses (also used by aircraft mechanics to afix wings to airplanes) cussing and mumbling to yourself and swearing that you'll never ignore that faint small voice in the back of your head ever again. But you will. Count on it.


----------



## Steve NW WI

Gologit said:


> Yup. But sometimes the body has it's own agenda. As in, when you're faced with a task that you know you shouldn't do...your mind tells you "go ahead and do that" and your body replies "if you do I'm going to make you pay". And then it does.
> Afterwards you're gimping around , encased in plaster, or bandages, or maybe some nice white gauze held firmly in place to hairy areas of your body with that special surgical adhesive tape known only to sadistic nurses (also used by aircraft mechanics to afix wings to airplanes) cussing and mumbling to yourself and swearing that you'll never ignore that faint small voice in the back of your head ever again. But you will. Count on it.



Hey, I've resembled that remark, on multiple occasions. Call me a slow learner.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> cussing and mumbling to yourself and swearing that you'll never ignore that faint small voice in the back of your head ever again. But you will. Count on it.



Uhh... guilty.


----------



## Joe46

HaHa. Building a shed with my son. Got one of the walls lifted, and my son asked me if I had it, YUP! Well he went around to the other side to do something. The wall was up on the holddowns and started to tilt. My boy is yelling at me to let it go. I'm thinking I'm 66, I know I'm not as quick as I used to be and can I really get all the way clear before it comes down and breaks my legs. So I figured what the H might as well go down in a blaze of glory it'll be over with quick. Well this whole thing was maybe 30seconds before the boy got back around to bail my A&^ out. My back paid the price for about a week:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## slowp

Yakima Herald Republic | Photos/video: Satus Pass fire rages unabated


----------



## Gologit

Thanks for posting that.


----------



## slowp

Two more break out, but in more sagebrushy noxious weed country. 

Evacuations, road closures as wildfires spread in Central Wash. | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News


----------



## northmanlogging

Mt si is close to home...:msp_unsure:


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> Mt si is close to home...:msp_unsure:




Well, we'll just wish it to send smoke towards Seattle, as long as you are not in the way. Smoke 'em out a bit.


----------



## slowp

I'll bet we have forum members on this one. 

Homes near Glendale in southern Oregon being evacuated because of wildfires | OregonLive.com


----------



## RandyMac

Golden skies here.


----------



## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> Well, we'll just wish it to send smoke towards Seattle, as long as you are not in the way. Smoke 'em out a bit.



I rather like the smoke... but I'm a little weird...


----------



## 2dogs

northmanlogging said:


> I rather like the smoke... but I'm a little weird...



Yeah well in California... uh NVM.

Santa Cruz has been under the fog the last couple of weeks. If we see the sun it isn't till 2 or 3 in the afternoon.


----------



## RandyMac

2dogs said:


> Yeah well in California... uh NVM.
> 
> Santa Cruz has been under the fog the last couple of weeks. If we see the sun it isn't till 2 or 3 in the afternoon.



fog, 31 days in a row


----------



## mile9socounty

slowp said:


> I'll bet we have forum members on this one.
> 
> Homes near Glendale in southern Oregon being evacuated because of wildfires | OregonLive.com



Probably. The last few days have been very interesting watching the fire. Yesterday about 1800. It was still 0% contained and still making runs. Good stuff to watch if your having a cold one.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## slowp

I drove home with the sunset at my back. Mt Adams was quite red and I could see the smoke hanging in around there. Pretty.


----------



## warejn

The front range is finally in monsoon mode. Rain nearly every day. I am hoping to send the fellows out to r6 or r1. It's making a mess for the salvage work though. Working down in Black Forest is slippery as can be.


----------



## slowp

Pikshurs of the Wenatchee fire and the Satus Pass fire.

Wildfire near Wenatchee continues to grow | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News


----------



## mile9socounty

Yeah its still burning pretty good in Douglas County. 2% contained isn't really a whole lot, but, its better than 0. It's about time West Fork torched off. It was bound to happen. Sooner or later.


----------



## madhatte

I walked off a fire today because the IC refused to ensure that LCES was in place. I will elaborate on this at a later time.


----------



## northmanlogging

raining down below... which is good cause its popcorn dry












































but... the rain brought lightning and its not raining here yet...:msp_unsure:


----------



## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> I walked off a fire today because the IC refused to ensure that LCES was in place. I will elaborate on this at a later time.



I assume you have read the IRPG section on how to turn down risk. I had to do that 2 years ago but everything worked out OK. The IC thanked me for the education.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> I assume you have read the IRPG section on how to turn down risk. I had to do that 2 years ago but everything worked out OK. The IC thanked me for the education.



Fireline Handbook page 22, in the old version. New version, spread out in some places and distilled elsewhere, begins on the first page. First place I looked. There's some places of my own anatomy that I don't particularly care to step on.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> I walked off a fire today because the IC refused to ensure that LCES was in place. I will elaborate on this at a later time.



Lack of LCES is why 19 fireman died this year.

It ain't no joke. . . I would have walked too.


----------



## slowp

Yakima Herald Republic | Colockum Tarps Fire continues growth; Mile Marker 28 Fire coming under control (photo gallery)


----------



## paccity




----------



## madhatte

The corrective process is beginning. It looks like things are about to get political.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> The corrective process is beginning. It looks like things are about to get political.



Is that good or bad?


----------



## slowp

I would say bad, but my experience is with a different agency.


----------



## madhatte

Remains to be seen. I suspect short-term bad and long-term good.


----------



## RandyMac

Stick to the printed manual, right or wrong, they can't argue with the book.


----------



## madhatte

I have all relevant documentation in hand and am ready to defend my actions.


----------



## slowp

The news just reported a firefighter killed when a tree fell on them near Sisters, OR. They said it was a falling team. Both were hit, one survived.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...y_wildfire_in_deschutes_n.html#incart_m-rpt-2


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> The news just reported a firefighter killed when a tree fell on them near Sisters, OR. They said it was a falling team. Both were hit, one survived.
> 
> Deadly wildfire in Deschutes National Forest: victims' names released | OregonLive.com



Well that just sucks.


----------



## madhatte

That is one of the many, many reasons why I am pressing this safety issue.


----------



## RandyMac

I have used the"Book" against a few employers, it cuts conversations short.
You will need to watch your back afterwards.


----------



## LarryTheCableGuy

slowp said:


> The news just reported a firefighter killed when a tree fell on them near Sisters, OR. They said it was a falling team. Both were hit, one survived.
> 
> Deadly wildfire in Deschutes National Forest: victims' names released | OregonLive.com



A little more info.

Firefighter killed by falling snag identified | | The Bulletin


----------



## madhatte

RandyMac said:


> I have used the"Book" against a few employers, it cuts conversations short.
> You will need to watch your back afterwards.



To use The Book, one must first have read and become familiar with The Book. I daresay that part of the process will be easy enough. I will certainly be watching my back. The Busted are too often The Spiteful.


----------



## 2dogs

Another contractor killed on a fire in Oregon. This time it was a water tender driver. I drove a contract tender in 1987 but I always felt safe.

Wildfire Today | News about wildfire, including brush fire, grass fire, wildland fire, and forest fire


----------



## cwebefree

*Fuels reduction and history*

(Okay, now I feel like a great bloody git, new here, hadn't seen that there are pages and pages replete with smoke eaters that are still doing it. Best to you guys)

I know y'all further west are getting it a month early,
I've someone who's like a sister out in Williams OR, another in Clackamas.
I had two major fires just up my drainage, here in the Pecos, in May & June.
My darn hunting grounds, those hills just a few miles north of me.

Reckon most folks know the basic history, that after The Big Blow Up, Big Ed Pulaski, Northern Idaho, 1910, at the dawn of the forest service that the policy was 100% fire suppression, culminating, in the 30's with the AM policy (all fires to be out by 10 the next morning).
Needless to say, in the fire dependent western forests, that was just about as stupid a thing anyone could do.

Fast forward to the madness that became more advanced fire & forest science, environmental dawning of understanding, The great Reagan "Get Out the Cut" Debacle and the loss of funding due to the policy failures of that culmination.
Whereas one could argue in a blowhard way to one side or another, fact is, back when I was a young sprat, I hired on as a thinner, CO, Northern Idaho, CA, NM,,,,blah blah, like a migrant worker. Back then, Carter years, thinning was done and paid for by the Gub'ment. It was called "Pre Commercial Thinning", in that the intent was to restore a stand so they could whack it down again, for pulp & lumber. The Environment was only a consideration in as far as there was corporate welfare to be meeted out to Big Timber. Stands thinned were rarely of a contract size small enough for your gypos, come the ten year turn around.

Then came Reagan and his idea to cut everything.
Not wanting to irk the Reaganagrandisers or nothin' but the contracts that went out under his administration did kick dust in the face of a lot of folks who joined or began groups like "Forest Guardians" and Centers For Biological Diversity.
Oh, let's not forget Earth First.

At the end of the day there was a herd of emotional twerps who brought lawsuits any time they smelled the fuel mix. A pity they outnumbered the many great environmentalists who were based in science and folks like the brilliant minds of NAU, etc. Tree Ring research not yet matured.
The Get out the Cut years were so successful that (arguably) too many forests were devastated, more so, however, Big Timber's bottom line had become so inflated by the crack of corporate welfare that when the Federales quit being able to "afford" thinning, road building, insanely low KBF prices, the stock holders of Big Timber squawked and it all came crashing down.

And all with an ample scape goat, the environmental community.
Which did deserve some excoriation, may there be no doubt. 

So, now, there's little memory of the fact that, 20/30 years ago the hills were crawling with Thinners. We just didn't call it "Fuels Reduction" or "Restorative Forestry", we called it "pre-commercial".
In the 24 hour news cycle not many folks remember that we used to spend millions on thinning.

But here's what gets me in this world that has gone all Tea Party, I got Mine Beyond the NIMBY:
No matter how you slice it, no matter if you believe in Climate Change(d) (no smoke eater who's run then and now doubts it) or not, the fact remains that the conditions of our forests are a direct result of National Fiscal We The People Policy, we done messed it up through our representative democracy and to blame the government for who we done elected is kind of a cop out.

We also need to look at the simple math of things, 
We are now spending about $3 Billion a year on fire suppression cost per acre (average of the last 20 years, as of 2010) for many fires is coming out at about $600 an acre.
The last couple years has blown that average by darn near an order of magnitude.

Now, I'm sure that fuels treatment makes a hell of a lot more fiscal sense.

It's time to say pretty loud and clear that we'd rather spend OUR money on thinning, fuels reduction then on crispy critters.
Besides, then I could have my old job back and quit being a land surveyor for my day job.

And on the environmental front, Center for Biological Diversity has come around, as have most science driven groups. Forest Guardians, who have since changed their name to Wild Earth Guardians, remain, mostly a bunch of idiots.

Not sure of link policy so I'll just give googleables for those that are weird enough (like myself) to read the science & scholarly (the first being what I think the most important)

Fuel Treatments and Fire
Severity: A Meta-Analysis


Historical Fire Regime Patterns in the
Southwestern United States Since AD 1700

Rising cost of wildfire protection

Baseline and Projected Future Carbon Storage and Greenhouse-Gas Fluxes in Ecosystems of the Western United States

Short- and Long-term Effects of Fire
on Carbon in US Dry Temperate Forest
Systems


All apologies for a bit of a rant.
Kind of passionate about it all.


----------



## slowp

Up here, where timber sales sold at a large profit for the govt, precommercial thinning was included in the KV plan (Knudsen Vander or en burg) which is paid for by the money generated from the sale of timber. As was/is replanting, making bear dens, making snags, dumping trees for lizard logs, bird boxes, fish logs, etc. etc. 

Western Warshington and Oregon generated a heck of a lot of income for the treasury. Now, there are studies that dispute the fact that timber sales were ever profitable, and if you include your state, AZ, and the inland forests, they would show different. But here where timber grows well and fast and large, we generated income. 

The counties made out well too with their 25% cut of the monies. 

Now, with that funding pretty well dried up because the timber sales are way below what they once were, and profits down because the sales are of less volume and much more complex, KV dollars often do not cover the "wish list" of the specialists. That includes precommercial thinning. 

The rules for KV use are complex, but it has to be done in the proximity of the sale area, so that is one reason that a sale area may be spread out as far as it can in order to get projects done that are not directly inside a unit.

Cweb, are you saying that there was a ten year rotation? That makes no sense, even here where we have good growth. We did precommercial thinning to speed up the growth, but ten years? That's not long enough and wasn't done anywhere that I know of.


----------



## madhatte

Co-worker caught me re-briefing a change in plans mid-burnout today.


----------



## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> Co-worker caught me re-briefing a change in plans mid-burnout today.



Meadow restoration burn?


----------



## cwebefree

SlowP
Just because we're weird around here and think those a state west....well lets just say the joke is that it's always windy here in New Mexico because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
But, to the points, the last crews I ran down the Gila way was ten year prior to cutting for pulp.
Stone Container liked to cut at 12"DBH, or a little smaller. You can make jokes about lame fellers, I won't argue.
Thinning being on a bit of a slower track from prior disturbance in our drier regions.
Up in the Northwest regrowth tends to want to be tickled sooner as it grows so much faster, as you've observed.

As to deficit expenditure, from treasury to the timber industry, I was speaking broadly. Of course there had to be areas that got close to positive. 
The Northwest being the prime example.

Still, to think of little sales I had in 80's, up here in the Pecos, where I was paying $32 the thousand, for a few hundred thousand and I was the only little guy working the hills (in my district) under contract, after roads were built, cruising and the whole nine yards, a timber staff of about 3 and 6, fulltime and seasonal, there sure wasn't anyway the Federales could do anything but hemorrhage greenfrogskins.

A bit during my time, and quite a bit before it, Duke City did have a mill and bought some timber, still, it was all rather piddly in comparison to what you guys had going. 
This same model was prevalent throughout the Rockies.

Also important to remember that out in the Northwest there are huge amounts of private, Weyerhauser type, forests in comparison to what's out in the Rockies where there's significantly more federal land, in comparison.

My main point in all the bean counting is that, by my way of looking at things, we can continue to spend massive amounts of cash attempting to suppress what can no longer be suppressed, with only a few jobs going to our brave smoke eaters.
Or we could put some smarter money into restorative forestry and have a whole lot more folks working in the hills.
Should be needless to mention that'd be an investment that won't be obvious right away, but in the long run we have the opportunity to actually have some forests where we will, no doubt, have conflagration, if we don't do some treatments.

On this I'm a bit of a zealot, I must admit, after going back down to the Gila this spring and seeing where the Whitewater Baldy Complex finally laid itself down.
You could still see the blue Rudd paint on the unit boundary of my thinning contract on one side of the Bear Wallow road, 10-20% , mortality in there, the other side of road-100%. Good ol' drop & lop, nothing fancy no masticators or chippers. Stone Container closed up shop right after that work, so, in an ironic twist, what was intended to be Pre commercial became restorative forestry/effective fuels reduction.
.


----------



## slowp

I worked a couple years in Arizona west of Showlow. We offered large trees in timber sales and then also included pulp sized wood down to 4 inches. That was before Stone went to 100% recycle. We did not have a ten year rotation. The pine grew well, but not that well. I left, but the Rodeo Chewhatever fire fried the left untouched (some owl habitat) stands and then laid down in the logged units according to one of my forester friends. 

We had a small fire that burned up to the highway while I was working there. We put it up for salvage. The SW Center for Biological Diversity tried to stop the salvage. They had read papers and were sure that not enough snags would be left. We offered to show them what we'd done, they did not go because they couldn't afford the gas to get there and were sure that not enough snags were left.

After the salvage was complete, we had motorists stopping in asking when that area was going to be salvaged.


----------



## cwebefree

So sorry, no intent to imply a 10 year rotation, as in they cut it, we thin it they cut it again in in ten years.
But that, as per my inspector, the intent was to cut ten years after we thinned it.
I'm not going to defend the veracity or sanity of that prescription, that's just what this lonely old thinner was made to understand.

What is now the Center for Biological Diversity has come a long way.
They even jumped on board with the 4FRI project.
Unfortunately the FS has done a poor job of contracting and gave it to a fly by night (now crashed) outfit, probably because an old supervisor signed on to it.

Up In Smoke - Is the US Forest Service killing the last best chance to save the Southwest?s forests?

(In that article that guy Bryan Bird is my nemesis No. 1, Schulke, like I said, has come a long way)

As a guy that's worked salvage, North Rim, post Bridger Jump Up in particular, I'm a little ambivalent.
Lots of murdered saws from ash & grit for lousy product. Heck, if I wanted to kill saws like that I'd still be cursing Stihls on the line.
I was also unimpressed with some of the operations I saw going on down the Gila this spring.
I did not work the salvage up my way after the Viveash burn in my back yard but I will say that, as an avid elk hunter, that those areas that were run over up there were much slower in coming back. It was a stand replacement Spruce/Fir thing where they salvaged. The aspens popped up almost immediately, accepting for thos areas that had skidders tearing it up.
Just a hunter's perspective.

THe Jaroso that just burned through my other hunting grounds will be an interesting comparison, that was up in the wilderness area, the poor jumpers they threw on that had enough time to say "Hells Bells" and call for evac. way too much deadfall, thicker than thieves in DC. Same deal as to stand replacement Spruce/Fir but with an estimate of significant fire going back hundreds of years.
I'm headed up that way this fall for the elk and to observe over the next few years as to regrowth. Really quite interested in how the aspen will react, if blight will hit.
One thing's certain, it should be some damn good hunting up there soon.


----------



## madhatte

Jacob J. said:


> Meadow restoration burn?



Naw, one of the firing ranges. This one is a once-a-year event as opposed to a ten-times-a-year like some of them or every 3 years like others. One good thing about having "Groundhog Day" fires is that there is always a chance to improve on past deficiencies. One thing I learned from this one is that I can have soldiers ordered out for their own safety. It's not written anywhere that we have that ability, but we do. There are channels, of course, but from a "bystander control" perspective, that's a good tool to have. I can think of several past fires where it would have been very handy to use.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> Co-worker caught me re-briefing a change in plans mid-burnout today.



Dang! I didn't know you is a girl.


----------



## madhatte

... I got nothing


----------



## RandyMac

madhatte said:


> ... I got nothing



we knew that


----------



## slowp

Don't know what all the stump pictures are about.

Scene from Oregon's largest, toughest cluster of wildfires: Tree skeletons and choking smoke | OregonLive.com


----------



## Tasso

My girlfriend shipped out to Redding, CA with the Northern Colorado crew on Wednesday to pre-position. I'm in the the on-boarding process with one department and just got promoted to full-time at another so I'm stuck at home on the Front Range cleaning up storm damage. Sorry the picture is low quality... new saw, not new phone.

View attachment 308631


----------



## madhatte

Oh, look, red flag warnings pretty much everywhere. Didn't see that coming.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> Oh, look, red flag warnings pretty much everywhere. Didn't see that coming.



Yes. We had pretty good fireworks last night and very little rain. It looked to be east of here.


----------



## RandyMac

Time to manage our timber again | MailTribune.com


----------



## paccity

real close to my place, saw the smoke this afternoon coming back from the show down in cottagegrove. got it under control . wind was blowing good right toward my place.Crews from all over Western Oregon respond to fire in Dallas | Local & Regional | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon


----------



## Metals406

7 new fires from strikes in my neck oh dah woods.

Cody (Tarzan) got dispatched out a couple days ago on the Nimrod fire.

I might get to go this year yet? Fire season ain't over.


----------



## northmanlogging

We've been getting just enough rain to give the illusion of safety. Giving Joe homeowner the ideat to burn all his trash and yard debris, however if its not raining its still bone dry by noon. There was a fire out on the tulalip res, not sure if they got it out yet.


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> We've been getting just enough rain to give the illusion of safety.



I wish there was a way to make everybody understand that. NWS has a "DRYING NORTHERLY BREEZES EXPECTED THROUGH THE PUGET SOUND LOWLANDS ON TUESDAY AFTERNOON AND EVENING" on the fire-weather reports. We're never truly out of the woods until we've had at least a couple days of full-on fall monsoon rain to soak the 1000-hour fuels beyond where they can dry out again. That usually happens around the first of October.


----------



## paccity

paccity said:


> real close to my place, saw the smoke this afternoon coming back from the show down in cottagegrove. got it under control . wind was blowing good right toward my place.Crews from all over Western Oregon respond to fire in Dallas | Local & Regional | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon



well went to the fire , and the irony of it is that it started at the old bethell logging home and shops , it is now owned by some out of staters  that are turning the property in to a winery and b&b. all moped up now.


----------



## Gologit

*Back to work for a few days*

InciWeb the Incident Information System: American


I'll never learn not to answer the phone. I'll be on a Cat.


----------



## roberte

Gologit said:


> InciWeb the Incident Information System: American
> 
> 
> I'll never learn not to answer the phone. I'll be on a Cat.




If its a cell phone, remember it has a unique feature on it

The off button.

Be safe.


----------



## madhatte

Looks like a hot one. Be careful.


----------



## RandyMac

Tired of smoke.

0900 today


----------



## slowp

Yakima Herald Republic | Forest Service raids budget to pay for wildfire costs


----------



## RandyMac

The old familiar places


----------



## madhatte

A friend sent me this one today (you know who you are). It give me a sinking feeling in my stomach to look ahead the next few years at WUI versus Wildland versus The Public. There will be some Lessons Learned locally this year, as well.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> A friend sent me this one today (you know who you are). It give me a sinking feeling in my stomach to look ahead the next few years at WUI versus Wildland versus The Public. There will be some Lessons Learned locally this year, as well.



I read the link. What's your take on it? If you're not comfortable with sharing that here we can talk about it at the next GTG.

I'm on a fire now and there are decisions being made that I don't understand.


----------



## madhatte

In the very grand scheme of things, I think that what will come of this will be a policy of wildland firefighters being encouraged to let houses burn along WUI margins more often. I think this policy will be very unpopular. My hope is that local communities will take it upon themselves to fund and maintain Firesafe standards, which will require thinning and pruning forested areas adjacent to them. I also hope to see less fear of prescribed burning. I want to see both a broader understanding of fire-dependent ecologies and a greater willingness to be proactive about local assets' safety. I want to see communities empowered to be less dependent on state and federal agencies for their own well-being. This argument could seem to be contrary to the discussion regarding "why does Prescott have a Hotshot crew, anyway?" It's not, though -- a Hotshot crew is a nationally-deployable asset which has no business milling around a single town. Prescott would have been better off spending that same money (I realize that it wouldn't be the SAME "same" money) on thinning and RX burning fire-prone areas in their own back yards. 

Meanwhile, closer to home, I do definitely have some things I'd rather not speak about publicly. Once the fire season is over and the dust has settled, I'll see if I can't summarize our Lessons Learned.


----------



## Joe46

Not to be a smartass here Nate, and I don't at all disagree with your thinking, BUT it would require the general public and our elected officials to think ahead and plan. Something that I personally feel they are failing miserably at.


----------



## slowp

It is kind of a Back To The Future thing. When I went to Fire School, back in 1970 something, they told us that we never were to fight structure fires. That was a job for the municipal depts. Then I read more and more about protecting structures by FS crews even. Will things go back the way they were? 

I'm glad to see some stuff other than "they were heroes" coming out of the investigation. When a crew is killed, somebody made a mistake and it needs to come out. 

I disagree with was it their boss? saying that firefighters want to be in the thick of things instead of waiting it out. I would much rather be safe in a safety area than be having to try out my fire shelter. His line of thinking is dangerous. 

Is Arizona the new Colorado? Colorado used to have a reputation for getting folks killed. AZ is catching up. Remember the Dude fire? 

Hey Bob, just be sure to have a safe place to retreat to. That's the number one way to survive. A nice, big clearing. It's OK to make one if you need to.


----------



## madhatte

Joe46 said:


> Not to be a smartass here Nate, and I don't at all disagree with your thinking, BUT it would require the general public and our elected officials to think ahead and plan. Something that I personally feel they are failing miserably at.



Agreed 100%. That's why I'm so careful to use words like "I think" and "I hope" -- I know that I'm farting in the wind, even though I think we have real opportunities for growth. 

In other news: my sources tell me that there was a fatality today on a fire called "Na Bob". I think it's in California but that's all I know right now.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Hey Bob, just be sure to have a safe place to retreat to. That's the number one way to survive. A nice, big clearing. It's OK to make one if you need to.



Yup. That's one of the reasons I like running Cat on a fire versus falling. If things get flaky I have a lot more options. 

I don't run as fast as I used to but that D-6 is as fast as it ever was.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> Agreed 100%. That's why I'm so careful to use words like "I think" and "I hope" -- I know that I'm farting in the wind, even though I think we have real opportunities for growth.
> 
> In other news: my sources tell me that there was a fatality today on a fire called "Na Bob". I think it's in California but that's all I know right now.



I looked at CalFire's website and couldn't find a fire with a name like that.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> I looked at CalFire's website and couldn't find a fire with a name like that.



I'll try to get more info. It's one of my former crew members who posted the info; apparently she bosses a DNR Type 2 inmate crew now and they were deployed to California two days ago.


----------



## slowp

Nothing here They Said where things often show up before the rest of the world hears.


----------



## slowp

Pictures from the south.

Yosemite wildfire rages on, threatening water supply (photos) | OregonLive.com


----------



## Metals406

This was a tough fire.

Had a crew out of Michigan tramp within 30 minutes. They said it was too dangerous, too steep, etc. Rollout was always a concern, as well as slop over.

The crew pictured is a squad that was part of a Native crew. We nicknamed them the "A-Team", they were fast and hard workers. We had just cut in the line and they were putting in cup-trench. This mountainside was thick as a jungle. Most days we didn't have any sun on us all day, except when you would cut out a hole.


----------



## slowp

Yes, steepness is relative to what you are used to.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> Yes, steepness is relative to what you are used to.



Too true. Some days I find a bit of slope and stop myself from grumbling when only I remember my days in the Oregon Coast Range.


----------



## Gologit

It's not steep unless the Cat will slide....sideways.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> It's not steep unless the Cat will slide....sideways.



It might be steep a _leeeeeetle_ before that. Just sayin'.


----------



## slowp

A yooper logger was not happy with the ground he was supposed to log. So, he told the mill folks who bought the sale, "When it tips over, we're done." And the next day, the forwarder tipped over and they were done. A logger had to be found who would pull line, and that was a rare thing at the time.

40 percent ground was considered steep by the FS timber markers.


----------



## northmanlogging

steep is butt sliding and all fours to go up... or when the off side of the stump is well over your head, and if you drop a wedge it can stay down there... and you seriously consider leaving the saw if you are dumb enough to drop it...


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> steep is butt sliding and all fours to go up... or when the off side of the stump is well over your head, and if you drop a wedge it can stay down there... and you seriously consider leaving the saw if you are dumb enough to drop it...



Don't forget the vegetation belays. 

Back on topic. Another Something Should Be Done editorial:

Legislature shortsighted on wildfire prevention | Editorials | The Olympian

So far, only one comment.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> It might be steep a _leeeeeetle_ before that. Just sayin'.



Good point. I got a 6 on some slick-rock this Spring that wasn't very steep at all. For a couple of minutes I was just a passenger until all the metal on rock screeching and sparks went away. I fetched up against a big stump at the bottom and then everything was okay. I took a coffee break.

LOL...Maybe a thousand years from now some historians will look at those scrape marks and gouges in the rock and try to figure out what kind of weird tribal hieroglyphics they are.


----------



## forestryworks

slowp said:


> Don't forget the vegetation belays.
> 
> Back on topic. Another Something Should Be Done editorial:
> 
> Legislature shortsighted on wildfire prevention | Editorials | The Olympian
> 
> So far, only one comment.



Unless some people have found a way to control weather and climate, there is simply no such thing as "wildfire prevention". We can slow it down (fuel reduction) or speed it up (fire suppression), but other than that, Mother Nature has the upper hand when it comes to wildfire.

All the talk about increasing logging ain't any good unless they follow it up with prescribed burning. The Northwest does and has burned many, many times before.


----------



## slowp

Slash reduction, or prescribed burning used to most always happen on Forest Service timber sales. In fact, it still does. KV money is collected from the timber sale receipts for burning. Ground doesn't have to be in a unit to burn this way. It does have to be within the Sale Area and within a certain distance of units. 

That's how burning got done on the Eastside, and even burning to improve the forage. 

There is one caveat, the sale must be of good enough quality so bids above the advertised rate will be made. Low bids = less KV funds.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> There is one caveat, the sale must be of good enough quality so bids above the advertised rate will be made. Low bids = less KV funds.



Aye, and there's the rub. If a sale is of marginal profitability, who'll bid knowing the liability will cost them profit? I have yet to meet a logger who works Pro Bono.


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> Don't forget the vegetation belays.
> 
> Back on topic. Another Something Should Be Done editorial:
> 
> Legislature shortsighted on wildfire prevention | Editorials | The Olympian
> 
> So far, only one comment.



I used the vegetation belay/ascend techniques, as well as Northman's 'scratch and claw' technique.

I'm not exaggerating when say I lost 10 pounds in 4 days on that fire -- and the support team fed us very, very well.


----------



## 1270d

slowp said:


> A yooper logger was not happy with the ground he was supposed to log. So, he told the mill folks who bought the sale, "When it tips over, we're done." And the next day, the forwarder tipped over and they were done. A logger had to be found who would pull line, and that was a rare thing at the time.
> 
> 40 percent ground was considered steep by the FS timber markers.



Don't be making fun of us yoopers just because we don't have mountains

Although I did find and cut a hill that the tracked bunchers couldn't work. My back tires spent a good bit of time off the ground(had to cut downhill) and the forwarder slid quite a bit.


----------



## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> In the very grand scheme of things, I think that what will come of this will be a policy of wildland firefighters being encouraged to let houses burn along WUI margins more often. I think this policy will be very unpopular. My hope is that local communities will take it upon themselves to fund and maintain Firesafe standards, which will require thinning and pruning forested areas adjacent to them. I also hope to see less fear of prescribed burning. I want to see both a broader understanding of fire-dependent ecologies and a greater willingness to be proactive about local assets' safety. I want to see communities empowered to be less dependent on state and federal agencies for their own well-being. This argument could seem to be contrary to the discussion regarding "why does Prescott have a Hotshot crew, anyway?" It's not, though -- a Hotshot crew is a nationally-deployable asset which has no business milling around a single town. Prescott would have been better off spending that same money (I realize that it wouldn't be the SAME "same" money) on thinning and RX burning fire-prone areas in their own back yards.
> 
> Meanwhile, closer to home, I do definitely have some things I'd rather not speak about publicly. Once the fire season is over and the dust has settled, I'll see if I can't summarize our Lessons Learned.



Another key piece of the puzzle that people are overlooking, is that the Yarnell Hill fire grew very little after the burning period in which the fatalities happened.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## 2dogs

Cody and I worked the Chestnut fire for Cal Fire this past Sunday. The job was to cut some burned eucalyptus along the main access road. The tops were all braided together nicely and we had to work only the middle of the strip. It took quite a bit of work but by 17:00 we had the four big trees and several smaller trees all the way on the ground. I took a few pics that I will post in a day or two. BTW if Cody logs on and says anything about getting the saws stuck, ignore him. He lies. And doesn't have any pics to prove anything.


----------



## madhatte

^
|
|

Site issues aside, consider that post "liked".


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> ^
> |
> |
> 
> Site issues aside, consider that post "liked".



Yup same here. Cody knows a level back cut when he sees it, too. Right Bill?


----------



## madhatte

Wildfire tactics in a structure conflagration? WUI goes both way, folks!


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> Wildfire tactics in a structure conflagration? WUI goes both way, folks!



Where were the dozers and airtankers???


----------



## madhatte

Tankers were for sure on the west side of the Mississippi. Shoulda been plenty of dozers available, though.


----------



## 2dogs

There is a 500 acre wildland fire in Big Sur today. 15 structures have already been destroyed. Weird, it was 81 degrees today. More to follow I'm sure.


----------



## Metals406

Cali is starting early. I'm hoping fir a good fire year here -- but I don't like destroyed property. I prefer fires burning thru areas way out in the sticks, that either need logged -- or burnt out for re-gen.

Sent from my Bic RaZor


----------



## 2dogs

850 acres, 900 firefighters, 4 helicopters, 4 air tankers, 75% humidity today. Don't know about contractors.


----------



## Metals406

% containment?

Sent using a miniature supercomputer.


----------



## 2dogs

Sorry, 75% containment.


----------



## Metals406

That's good! Hopefully they can finish getting line around it soon.

Sent using a miniature supercomputer.


----------



## 2dogs

Over 900 acres and more than 1,000 personnel.

BTW InciWeb has a new URL: http://inciweb.nwcg.gov


----------



## 2dogs

Yesterday I received notice that the required safety training classes for my area start February 1st. I imagine this is true for the entire state. Check with your local Cal Fire or USFS Hired Equipment Specialist for details.


----------



## 4x4American

madhatte said:


> Recent Pics from Colorado Springs
> 
> WHY do people KEEP BUILDING IN THE WORST POSSIBLE PLACES?!? Look at that slope and those fuels! That's no place to put a road, much less a home, much less a whole subdivision! Here's hoping there aren't a thousand lawsuits as soon as the ashes cool.



I dont get it either. They're doing that ridiculous building in the adk mtn region. They build these big fancy homes all squished together-like on the side of a mountain. Ruins the mountain in my opinion.

On another note, awesome to see that old first gen dodge w350 out and about in service.


----------



## forestryworks

A home in the wildland is no different than a tree or a shrub; they're all made of wood and wood burns. Fire is not the problem - it never has been - too many people building too many homes in the wrong places with too lax zoning laws is the problem. An anti-fire culture doesn't help, either.


----------



## Metals406

forestryworks said:


> A home in the wildland is no different than a tree or a shrub; they're all made of wood and wood burns. Fire is not the problem - it never has been - too many people building too many homes in the wrong places with too lax zoning laws is the problem. An anti-fire culture doesn't help, either.


Jameson, I'm sending Smokey the Bear to yer place to whoop you!


----------



## 2dogs

I have long argued that the fire service should save the high value items as a priority. Life safety is of course number one but saving a shack over a watershed is foolish in my eyes. In the Santa Cruz mountains we have hundreds if not thousands of illegal structures, many of which are a result of the drug trade here. If one of them catches fire the fire service will do everything it can to save it while letting the wildland burn. Then the building department shows up and condemns the structure and orders it torn down anyway. We need fresh clear thinking when it comes to wildland fire. NOT something like what is going on in Colorado right now.


----------



## slowp

Not sure anything is going on in Colorado right now. Those pictures are from 2012. Lots of old threads are being pulled up.
But I could be wrong. I haven't been watching the news lately.


----------



## forestryworks

Metals406 said:


> Jameson, I'm sending Smokey the Bear to yer place to whoop you!



If anyone needs a good ol' ass whooping, it's Smokey Bear. Bring it on.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Yesterday I received notice that the required safety training classes for my area start February 1st. I imagine this is true for the entire state. Check with your local Cal Fire or USFS Hired Equipment Specialist for details.



The first class over here is Feb 22. It's already full. I think there are three more, one each week in the Grass Valley area.

The people putting on the class always bring lots of donuts and coffee. The sugar high helps when it's time to do the shelter deployment.


----------



## 2dogs

I took the safety class today. Last Saturday's class was cancelled a the last minute which was a good thing for me. It was Cody's 21st birthday. Anyway it was raining today so we moved tables and chairs and threw fire shelters indoors. Lots of talk about the Yarnell Hotshots. Rates went up this year though it sounds as if dozer transports did not do well.

Not I will have to find a class for Cody since the Marines had him this weekend.


----------



## Gologit

The next class over here is Feb 22nd. The link won't work but you can email her directly.

[email protected]


----------



## Metals406

I do my rt-130 March 8th. They added a 3 mile pack test this year.


----------



## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> I do my rt-130 March 8th. They added a 3 mile pack test this year.


Fun!


----------



## Gologit

Fun?


----------



## slowp

Metals406 said:


> I do my rt-130 March 8th. They added a 3 mile pack test this year.


 
I think the YMCA tune has the correct cadence for the pace. I think.....maybe not, oh well. If it does, it is hard not to do the YMCA arm movements so might not be a good thing to use.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> I think the YMCA tune has the correct cadence for the pace. I think.....maybe not, oh well. If it does, it is hard not to do the YMCA arm movements so might not be a good thing to use.


Would he have to dress up like the guys who do that song? I just can't quite picture that.


slowp said:


> I think the YMCA tune has the correct cadence for the pace. I think.....maybe not, oh well. If it does, it is hard not to do the YMCA arm movements so might not be a good thing to use.



Would Nate have to dress up like the guys who do that song? I just can't quite see him doing that. But, then again....


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> Would he have to dress up like the guys who do that song? I just can't quite picture that.
> 
> 
> Would Nate have to dress up like the guys who do that song? I just can't quite see him doing that. But, then again....



I was wondering that same thing Bob.

Nate: I'd go with the Indian but with tenny runners instead of moccasins. You could still carry your water in a buffalo bladder.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> I was wondering that same thing Bob.
> 
> Nate: I'd go with the Indian but with tenny runners instead of moccasins. You could still carry your water in a buffalo bladder.




How 'bout barefoot? Anybody can hike with boots on. Barefoot...that'll show 'em. We'll drive along behind with the A/C on and shout encouragement out the window.


Edit...we probably shouldn't pick on Nate too much. Every pipe in his house is frozen. One of the guys suggested that he start pooping in plastic bags but I never heard Nate's response. Might not want to, either.


----------



## slowp

Spendy plastic bag system, with a twist!
http://teardropshop.com/collections/dry-flush-portable-toilet


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Spendy plastic bag system, with a twist!
> http://teardropshop.com/collections/dry-flush-portable-toilet


 A battery powered toilet? What if some moisture...nah, never mind. I don't want to know.


----------



## madhatte

Well, MY pipes aren't broken, and if I'm gonna dress up as any of those guys it'd probably be soldier, because BDU pants are comfortable.


----------



## Metals406

I was thinking about duct taping a midget to my back to meet the pack weight requirements.

He could bark cadence and give me fruit snacks if my blood sugar got low.


----------



## forestryworks

Metals406 said:


> I do my rt-130 March 8th. They added a 3 mile pack test this year.



Get off the couch, 'tater.


----------



## 137cc

Metals406 said:


> I do my rt-130 March 8th. They added a 3 mile pack test this year.



I just did my refresher and all fallers now have to do the 3 mile pack test as well, they've only made us do the walk test for the past 4 to 5 years. The rumor I heard at refresher was that all equipment operators are gonna have to take the arduous pack test next year as well.


----------



## Gologit

137cc said:


> I just did my refresher and all fallers now have to do the 3 mile pack test as well, they've only made us do the walk test for the past 4 to 5 years. The rumor I heard at refresher was that all equipment operators are gonna have to take the arduous pack test next year as well.



I just did my FSTEP Hired Vendor class. I didn't hear that rumor. I heard lots of rumors but not that particular one.
If they're going to require the pack test for operators they better have a cardiac arrest trauma team standing by. Most of us are middle aged or elderly and definitely not in any kind of shape for a pack test.


----------



## Metals406

137cc said:


> I just did my refresher and all fallers now have to do the 3 mile pack test as well, they've only made us do the walk test for the past 4 to 5 years. The rumor I heard at refresher was that all equipment operators are gonna have to take the arduous pack test next year as well.



I'm hearing the same -- and that's from the bossman himself. I don't mind the pack test, I just don't want to do it in arctic temps and through the snow drifts.


----------



## 137cc

Gologit said:


> I just did my FSTEP Hired Vendor class. I didn't hear that rumor. I heard lots of rumors but not that particular one.
> If they're going to require the pack test for operators they better have a cardiac arrest trauma team standing by. Most of us are middle aged or elderly and definitely not in any kind of shape for a pack test.


 
The reason we were told they require the pack for the fallers now is because a faller passed away from cardiac arrest on a fire in Washington 2 years ago. A government response to a fatality is to add more items to the checklist. So now they've added the pack test and a few more requirements. I know guys who have been on fires for the past ten years that are having to re-take their S-130/S-190 this year. So 4 days of refresher this year for them instead of one all because they didn't have any documentation. 

I'll believe it when I see it for requiring the equipment operators to take the arduous pack test. I would bet over half the operator pool would disappear if they start to require the pack test for them.


----------



## Gologit

137cc said:


> The reason we were told they require the pack for the fallers now is because a faller passed away from cardiac arrest on a fire in Washington 2 years ago. A government response to a fatality is to add more items to the checklist. So now they've added the pack test and a few more requirements. I know guys who have been on fires for the past ten years that are having to re-take their S-130/S-190 this year. So 4 days of refresher this year for them instead of one all because they didn't have any documentation.
> 
> I'll believe it when I see it for requiring the equipment operators to take the arduous pack test. I would bet over half the operator pool would disappear if they start to require the pack test for them.


 

Good post. I can't see requiring the arduous pack test for operators either but things being what they are I wouldn't bet against it. I think you're right about losing the majority of the operator pool.
Most of the operators here are guys and gals whose physical condition already precludes any kind of strenuous activity. It's seasonal work and for some of them it's the only work they do all year. Some of the runners are locals who know every goat trail in five counties. Same with the water tenders. Lots of retirees, lots of good skilled people, lots of accumulated knowledge, but Olympic athletes they ain't. That's why they're operators.
I'd sure hate to see that resource lost because of an unnecessary requirement.


----------



## madhatte

We pack test all of our operators, but we don't have to. I guess it keeps the Heads happy.


----------



## forestryworks

I've missed two opportunities to do my refresher this winter/spring because of work, and thus missed out on a super fun conifer woodland burn with knee-breaking slopes. But it's good to be working, even if the youngins I'm supervising are gonna give me gray hair by the time I hit 30.


----------



## Joe46

I have no horse in this race, but what is a pack test going to prove for an operator? Just read an article about a basketball coach for a big east coast college team that just died of a heart attack at 26 years of age! I would venture to say he was probably in pretty damn good shape. When it's your time, it's your time.


----------



## Metals406

Joe46 said:


> I have no horse in this race, but what is a pack test going to prove for an operator? Just read an article about a basketball coach for a big east coast college team that just died of a heart attack at 26 years of age! I would venture to say he was probably in pretty damn good shape. When it's your time, it's your time.



The answer is. . . Standard Goobermint Procedure.

When something bad happens, over regulate it and it'll go away.


----------



## AKDoug

Yep, regulate the hell out of it and watch all the good experienced help disappear. Exactly why I'm not a volunteer F.F. and EMT any more after 15 years of experience.


----------



## 2dogs

wildfiretoday.com from 3/10/14 has an article about a 61yo ff from AZ who died taking the pack test. Same age as me.


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> wildfiretoday.com from 3/10/14 has an article about a 61yo ff from AZ who died taking the pack test. Same age as me.



This arduous pack test, the broader the requirement, will end up killing more folks than fire-line deaths.

Some of the old guys at my 130 class would never make it an 1/8 mile, let alone 3. But their job isn't "arduous" in the first place. . . They're cab rats not line crew.


----------



## Metals406

My favorite fire quote so far from this year, snagged from some MSU dude in a 130 class video.

"A fire fighters job is to pack heavy stuff in the woods. One can prepare for this, by packing heavy stuff in the woods."

Hahahaha


----------



## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> My favorite fire quote so far from this year, snagged from some MSU dude in a 130 class video.
> 
> "A fire fighters job is to pack heavy stuff in the woods. One can prepare for this, by packing heavy stuff in the woods."
> 
> Hahahaha



Darn good advice IMO.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Firewise is the key!!! Had to go to a fire today that nearly got to someones home. People don't think! Plus they were burning illegal material.


----------



## 137cc

So there is another class they are requiring fallers to take as well. Something called NIMS IS-700? It's some sort of FEMA training that is supposed to make us ready for all incident response. It's an online course that has almost nothing to do with wildland fire. And most that are on the falling contracts are going to have lots of trouble passing it. I swear someone in the regional office is on a mission to make sure that the number of fallers on contract is going to drop at least 75%.


----------



## Gologit

137cc said:


> So there is another class they are requiring fallers to take as well. Something called NIMS IS-700? It's some sort of FEMA training that is supposed to make us ready for all incident response. It's an online course that has almost nothing to do with wildland fire. And most that are on the falling contracts are going to have lots of trouble passing it. I swear someone in the regional office is on a mission to make sure that the number of fallers on contract is going to drop at least 75%.




If you have any more information on this we'd appreciate hearing it. If 75% of the available fallers aren't qualified it might be an interesting season and maybe a wake-up call for some of the people who keep throwing obstacles in our way.


----------



## madhatte

Arggh, I'm interested in this as well since we're supposed to be on call for Mutual Assistance and all that.


----------



## slowp

I heard a rumor that the Forest Service is trying to get FEMA to take over the fire fighting. It is a budget thing. That's all I know...


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> I heard a rumor that the Forest Service is trying to get FEMA to take over the fire fighting. It is a budget thing. That's all I know...



FEMA? Like there's not enough layers of bureaucracy and decision making already?

You better let Oly know.


----------



## northmanlogging

according to LW a few cogress types are pushing a bill to get federal disaster money for large fires, trying to spare some of the FS's fire management money


----------



## slowp

Gologit said:


> FEMA? Like there's not enough layers of bureaucracy and decision making already?
> 
> You better let Oly know.


 
Maybe the whole politicals? Maybe those rumored FEMA camps are for firefighter training? And let's not forget the EPA. I haven't heard any rumors but I could start a whopper with the EPA as the culprit. I won't. 

Yup, FEMA would have a budget for fire disasters and the FS could use their budget for intended purposes.


----------



## madhatte

Problem with FEMA is that it takes a declared emergency for them to have any clout. Fires move too quickly. A mobile force like the FS and other agencies have is the only way I can think of to address a target that won't sit still.


----------



## 137cc

Gologit said:


> If you have any more information on this we'd appreciate hearing it. If 75% of the available fallers aren't qualified it might be an interesting season and maybe a wake-up call for some of the people who keep throwing obstacles in our way.



Finally passed after 3 tries and lots of going over the material multiple times. Here's a link to the FEMA site, click on the "Interactive Web Based Course" in the upper right. 

http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/courseOverview.aspx?code=IS-700.a

I guess they are making everybody do it? I talked to a govt. buddy of mine and he says they make a cheat sheet so they don't have to waste as much time as I just did. He said pretty much every govt. place does a cheat sheet to help, so they obviously think it's worthless as well.


----------



## northmanlogging

The jist of the article is to make it easier to declare a big fire a disaster, allowing FEMA or whoever to step in and foot the bill, FS and usual the suspects would most likely still be in charge of putting the damn thing out... I think... won't/can't give specifics, not my field.

The bonus is that the FS can then spend money on preventing fires rather than sinking up to their collective eyeballs putting them out


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> to make it easier to declare a big fire a disaster, allowing FEMA or whoever to step in and foot the bill





northmanlogging said:


> The bonus is that the FS can then spend money on preventing fires rather than sinking up to their collective eyeballs putting them out



See, that makes a lot of sense. Fingers crossed it works.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> See, that makes a lot of sense. Fingers crossed it works.




NM's idea is practical and it does makes sense. If they follow his line of thinking things might actually become more efficient and everyone would benefit.

But, then again, we're still falling into the trap of applying logic and common sense to a problem and expecting it to work. We keep expecting a level of improvement commensurate with the amount of workable solutions to the problem. Seems like we should know better by now.
Or is that just "old guy cynicism"?


----------



## northmanlogging

well, I may not understand politics but from the article it sounds like it at least started out as a good idea... only time and more taxes will tell.


----------



## northmanlogging

Took me a little to find it...

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/congress-studies-new-way-fund-massive-wildfires


----------



## Nuzzy

northmanlogging said:


> Took me a little to find it...
> 
> http://bigstory.ap.org/article/congress-studies-new-way-fund-massive-wildfires





Definitely an interesting read (and idea). I can't immediately think of a reason why wildfires shouldn't be considered in the same boat as hurricanes, so that it stands to reason they have the same funds available.


----------



## Jacob J.

Well, no surprises here...

http://calwatchdog.com/2014/02/19/judge-blasts-corrupt-cal-fire-in-wildfire-lawsuit/

"Superior Court Judge Leslie Nichols this month ruled that the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection repeatedly deceived and withheld evidence in a lawsuit seeking $8.1 million from a company and several landowners for a wildfire that the company did not cause. The judge further found that $400,000 of that money was slated for an illegal Cal Fire slush fund. Cal Fire was represented by Attorney General Kamala Harris’ office."


----------



## Gologit

Jacob J. said:


> Well, no surprises here...
> 
> http://calwatchdog.com/2014/02/19/judge-blasts-corrupt-cal-fire-in-wildfire-lawsuit/
> 
> "Superior Court Judge Leslie Nichols this month ruled that the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection repeatedly deceived and withheld evidence in a lawsuit seeking $8.1 million from a company and several landowners for a wildfire that the company did not cause. The judge further found that $400,000 of that money was slated for an illegal Cal Fire slush fund. Cal Fire was represented by Attorney General Kamala Harris’ office."



There's probably some smiling faces in Anderson right about now.


----------



## 2dogs

Jacob J. said:


> Well, no surprises here...
> 
> http://calwatchdog.com/2014/02/19/judge-blasts-corrupt-cal-fire-in-wildfire-lawsuit/
> 
> "Superior Court Judge Leslie Nichols this month ruled that the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection repeatedly deceived and withheld evidence in a lawsuit seeking $8.1 million from a company and several landowners for a wildfire that the company did not cause. The judge further found that $400,000 of that money was slated for an illegal Cal Fire slush fund. Cal Fire was represented by Attorney General Kamala Harris’ office."


 Yeah this happened a couple of months ago. Cal Fire feels they are above the law at times.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/02/06...0-million-for-conduct-in-moonlight-fire-case/


----------



## Gologit

I heard on the news today that CalFire has a "massive" hiring program already in place for this season.

Really massive. They're hiring 100 additional seasonals. I guess that must sound impressive to Joe Homeowner but 100 people in a state as large as California isn't even a drop in the bucket.


----------



## slowp

I'll send some of this rain that way.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> I'll send some of this rain that way.



Please do.


----------



## madhatte

100?!? Geeze, we hire 14 each year and we're TINY.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> 100?!? Geeze, we hire 14 each year and we're TINY.



Yup...that's 100 additional seasonals added to how ever many they normally hire. So you get 100 green troops spread out over the entire state...who am I kidding, most of them will go to SoCal...and that's supposed to make everybody feel all cozy and secure? It's just something they came up with to make a little media splash.


In the meantime they don't want to come up with any more money for fallers or dozers or water tenders or runners or....


----------



## madhatte

Gonna be a long season.


----------



## slowp

But, it is still raining at my house. More than yesterday's drizzle today.


----------



## Scotsy

137cc said:


> Finally passed after 3 tries and lots of going over the material multiple times. Here's a link to the FEMA site, click on the "Interactive Web Based Course" in the upper right.
> 
> http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/courseOverview.aspx?code=IS-700.a
> 
> I guess they are making everybody do it? I talked to a govt. buddy of mine and he says they make a cheat sheet so they don't have to waste as much time as I just did. He said pretty much every govt. place does a cheat sheet to help, so they obviously think it's worthless as well.



I have been a Firefighter for 16 yrs and now I'm a contractor. IS-700 is for the most part too much for a contractor, but it does help you to understand the Incident Command system. You should know who your boss (Felling Boss) is on a fire, that you have every right to make a Safety Stop and not go to the Command Post and tell IC that your water was too warm to drink today. That's it in a nut shell, sorry I cant give you a cert for that


----------



## 2dogs

The fires have reached Santa Cruz county today. 10 square miles of poison oak. I hope I don't get called tonight.


----------



## slowp

Hope you have good boot laces!


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> Hope you have good boot laces!


I have very expensive Nomex laces in my Whites. Now where did I put my boots?


----------



## slowp

Nomex laces? I did not know such a thing existed! Be careful out dere!


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> 10 square miles of poison oak.



Air strike!


----------



## RandyMac

2dogs said:


> The fires have reached Santa Cruz county today. 10 square miles of poison oak. I hope I don't get called tonight.



let it burn


----------



## madhatte

Oh, god, poison-oak smoke, probably my biggest fear. Pretty sure that would kill me.


----------



## treeslayer2003

no joke Nate, i'v known folks to be hospitalized from inhaling the vapor while burning poison ivy vines.


----------



## madhatte

I read somewhere that something like 60% of wildland fire hospitalization injuries were due to inhaling poison-oak smoke. I'll look around a bit to see if I can substantiate that number, but even if it's urban mythology, it still makes me nervous. We don't have anywhere near as much of the stuff here as there is in CA or even OR, but I do run into it, and in fire-prone places. Here's some I found last week on a burned-over site just opposite, and only about 100 yards from, a place that burns almost every year. 

EDIT: notice the little white spangly bits? That's flowers. There will be more of the stuff next year.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> I read somewhere that something like 60% of wildland fire hospitalization injuries were due to inhaling poison-oak smoke. I'll look around a bit to see if I can substantiate that number, but even if it's urban mythology, it still makes me nervous. We don't have anywhere near as much of the stuff here as there is in CA or even OR, but I do run into it, and in fire-prone places. Here's some I found last week on a burned-over site just opposite, and only about 100 yards from, a place that burns almost every year.
> 
> EDIT: notice the little white spangly bits? That's flowers. There will be more of the stuff next year.



HERBICIDE!


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> HERBICIDE!



Even that's not enough, at least not immediately -- the dead stems can still give a rash for several years! I HATE poison-oak!


----------



## 2dogs

You northerners probably heard a firefighter died while taking the pack test in Wyoming. Don't know the details.

Firefighting is dangerous enough without being in poor physical condition, not that I should talk. However for you contractors and agency guys/gals do be serious about getting into and remaining in top shape this fire season. At 61 I have hella time getting ion shape.


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> Air strike!


Yeah!!! A reverse firefighting air strike. Instead of an air tanker, request napalm and like Randy said let it burn.

Poison Oak used to be the number one cause of workers' comp claims. It changed to "stress" about 30 years ago. I don't know what is first now.


----------



## Gologit

Frustration?


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> Even that's not enough, at least not immediately -- the dead stems can still give a rash for several years! I HATE poison-oak!




MORE herbicide! And then, like 2dogs said, a napalm airstrike.


----------



## KenJax Tree

2dogs said:


> Yeah!!! A reverse firefighting air strike. Instead of an air tanker, request napalm and like Randy said let it burn.
> 
> Poison Oak used to be the number one cause of workers' comp claims. It changed to "stress" about 30 years ago. I don't know what is first now.


Stupidity has to be up there in every occupation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> MORE herbicide! And then, like 2dogs said, a napalm airstrike.


You won't see me arguing. I break out just thinking about that stuff. *shudder*


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> You won't see me arguing. I break out just thinking about that stuff. *shudder*



Same here. I was fine for years and never had a problem with it. Then one year I got down wind from a burn and got just enough smoke exposure to make me sick.
Since then...well, I don't even like to _think_ about that stuff.


----------



## Metals406

We're not on fire yet.

Another reason I love Montanny. . . No poison oak.

Sounds like I never want to even lay eyes on that stuff.

I didn't hear about the pack test death in WY, but that should fuel the fire for the ones pushing fir more and more regs. Pretty soon, they'll have to use robots -- nobody will qualify for fire duty.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## stikine

madhatte said:


> I read somewhere that something like 60% of wildland fire hospitalization injuries were due to inhaling poison-oak smoke. I'll look around a bit to see if I can substantiate that number, but even if it's urban mythology, it still makes me nervous. We don't have anywhere near as much of the stuff here as there is in CA or even OR, but I do run into it, and in fire-prone places. Here's some I found last week on a burned-over site just opposite, and only about 100 yards from, a place that burns almost every year.
> 
> EDIT: notice the little white spangly bits? That's flowers. There will be more of the stuff next year.


 yuck, haven't seen that stuff since 1986! You all can keep that stuff down in the states...I'll take the brown bears and devils club and be happy!


----------



## 2dogs

RandyMac said:


>


That is one fine looking job there. Did you find that in an old burn? Or is that the half-Humboldt cut?


----------



## madhatte

Looks to be deciding between "teeter" and "totter". Surely gravity will win either way.


----------



## RandyMac

It was in an old burn, it needed a bit of tapping to go. My Grandad wanted it down, to keep deer out of his Boletus patch.


----------



## slowp

Here we go. Two Bulls Fire, west of Bend, OR.
http://www.ktvz.com/news/two-brushfires-break-out-west-of-bend/26382078


----------



## Metals406

Yikes, purdy early fer Oregon.


----------



## RandyMac

We are getting a fair amount of smoke from the Orygun fires.


----------



## madhatte

We saw two small fires last week and a third the week before. Early here, too.


----------



## Gologit

Nothing going on down here. Yet. All the SoCal fires are contained.
I walked a sale yesterday and the woods have that "hot" smell...I don't have the words to describe it but you know what I'm talking about.


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> Nothing going on down here. Yet. All the SoCal fires are contained.
> I walked a sale yesterday and the woods have that "hot" smell...I don't have the words to describe it but you know what I'm talking about.



I miss how the woods smell through the seasons.


----------



## 2dogs

I know that smell. To me it is sweet, I can almost taste it. Like chewing on wild oats.


----------



## madhatte

I love that smell. Blackberry tea.


----------



## northmanlogging

Sweet and dry, instead of damp and musty... always gets the hairs on my neck standing up.


----------



## Metals406

Ran into the IC trainee from a fire last year. He's with DNR. Said we've already had some starts. This with us being green & moist yet. Maybe an ominous omen?


----------



## madhatte

We had 2 little blazes in green grass today. The grass by the roadsides is starting to brown at the top. We did get our first batch of seasonals this week. Hard to speculate on the season this early.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> We had 2 little blazes in green grass today. The grass by the roadsides is starting to brown at the top. We did get our first batch of seasonals this week. Hard to speculate on the season this early.


Yeah, it is early. We could dry right out -- or stay moistish till November.


----------



## slowp

We had a fire last year in May that got folks excited. It does smell dry out, but some rain is supposed to hit tomorrow.


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> We had a fire last year in May that got folks excited. It does smell dry out, but some rain is supposed to hit tomorrow.


We're supposed to get all that wet this week as well.


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> We had a fire last year in May that got folks excited. It does smell dry out, but some rain is supposed to hit tomorrow.


Rain? PLEASE send me some!


----------



## paccity

getting a little today , not much,maybe more tomorrow . hope ya get some.


----------



## madhatte

Dozer Bossin' today. Pretty good for this early in the season. 

First pass:







Second pass, cleaning up the line: 






Burning out the front of the range: 






Scots' broom burning, a sight I am always happy to see:


----------



## Gologit

Note the amount of equipment on these two fires. That's what we like to see!

http://yubanet.com/regional/CAL-FIR...le-Fire-Battle-Two-Wildfires.php#.U6bru_ldWNY


----------



## Cedarkerf

Rid the earth of that scotch broom what idiot thought that was a good plant to import to our beautiful state. Cool pics Nate


----------



## northmanlogging

The scotts... cause they couldn't figure out how to make a broom out of cedar...


----------



## madhatte

130 personnel is no joke. That's an expensive fire. Contained? Worth it, especially for the locals.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> 130 personnel is no joke. That's an expensive fire. Contained? Worth it, especially for the locals.



Yup. That part of the county is dry grass, buck brush, mobile home parks, and lots of narrow winding roads that make equipment access a nightmare. CalFire did it right.


----------



## 2dogs

130 people for 18 acres. Somebody important lives there.
San Andreas (where my in-laws live) had two fires in the last few days both just over 100 acres each. Sounds like arson to me. I wonder which department he works for?


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> 130 people for 18 acres. Somebody important lives there.
> San Andreas (where my in-laws live) had two fires in the last few days both just over 100 acres each. Sounds like arson to me. I wonder which department he works for?




Cynic.


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> Cynic.


Yep!


----------



## 2dogs

Dozer rollover yesterday in Collyfornia. No injuries noted.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/07/07/dozer-accident-injuries-one-on-californias-monticello-fire/


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> Dozer rollover yesterday in Collyfornia. No injuries noted.
> http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/07/07/dozer-accident-injuries-one-on-californias-monticello-fire/


No fatalities is good!


----------



## slowp

This looks like a nice, low, creepy crawly fire. The Entiat area burns frequently. Actually, just about everything that isn't irrigated burns frequently around Wenatchee.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...n-County-266457771.html?tab=gallery&c=y&img=0


----------



## 2dogs

The bit about the fire is interesting but scroll down the page and you read all about Miley Cyrus and how she is secretly dating her record producer. I bet that's the reason slowp linked us to that page.


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> The bit about the fire is interesting but scroll down the page and you read all about Miley Cyrus and how she is secretly dating her record producer. I bet that's the reason slowp linked us to that page.


[emoji13]


----------



## Metals406

Getn warm here. . . Very warm. Bet we might see some fires soon -- I'll have to hang close to the phone.


----------



## 2dogs

Freddie Smoke starts a fire at a pot farm. Yep, California.

http://wildfiretoday.com/


----------



## madhatte

Politics as usual here. Hard to get stuff done. Ah, well, fall's only a couple of months away.


----------



## slowp

The central part of our state seems to be on fire. After spending a wunnerful week in Moses Hole, I need to swarp the ash out of the Pointy Trailer and hork a bit. Yup, the ash and smoke appeared Wednesday night there. 

Even though the town has suffered, it is interesting to hear the various pronunciations of Pateros. Haven't heard Methow pronounced yet by them furriners. Don't move here.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Freddie Smoke starts a fire at a pot farm. Yep, California.
> 
> http://wildfiretoday.com/



http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1001


It's over 12 thousand acres now and running hard.

They found a body in one of the houses that burned. Looks like Mr. Smoke will be going away for awhile.

Edit....Maybe not. Just found out he's out on bail on the original charge. He might be hard to find now.


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> The central part of our state seems to be on fire. After spending a wunnerful week in Moses Hole, I need to swarp the ash out of the Pointy Trailer and hork a bit. Yup, the ash and smoke appeared Wednesday night there.
> 
> Even though the town has suffered, it is interesting to hear the various pronunciations
> of Pateros. Haven't heard Methow pronounced yet by them furriners. Don't move here.



Yeah, right. Girls do NOT know how to hork. They make a little squeaky noise and turn away and petew. They never even take the time to aim the phlegm at a proper target. And THEN they won't even discuss the color or texture. Say "Sup" to Benny for me.


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1001
> 
> 
> It's over 12 thousand acres now and running hard.
> 
> They found a body in one of the houses that burned. Looks like Mr. Smoke will be going away for awhile.
> 
> Edit....Maybe not. Just found out he's out on bail on the original charge. He might be hard to find now.



Contra Costa county had a wildland fire? I didn't they even had a vacant lot to burn.
It is amazing how few fires we have had in Collyfornia this year. Something like a 10 year low. Canada, Oregon, and Warshington have burned over it seems, and they even have rain. Let's all move there (if the raspberries and huckleberries haven't burned up).


----------



## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> The central part of our state seems to be on fire. After spending a wunnerful week in Moses Hole, I need to swarp the ash out of the Pointy Trailer and hork a bit. Yup, the ash and smoke appeared Wednesday night there.
> 
> Even though the town has suffered, it is interesting to hear the various pronunciations of Pateros. Haven't heard Methow pronounced yet by them furriners. Don't move here.



Meth how... like the drug... Sequim, like seak swim, Puyalip=pooee aa leep, Snohomish=Snow mish, Skagit=Skay jut, Sauk=Sayuuk, Stanwood=stain would, Siuattle=she uh adle

Don't move here...


----------



## slowp

I have friends who live up in the Okanogan Valley. (pronounced Okieknoggin) and they are next if the fire keeps burning up the valley. Okanogan is at level 1 and Omak is next. One of the friends is a retired smoke jumper so maybe he can make the fire go away? Smoke jumpers are like super heroes. 

According to the news, Twisp (pronounced Twips) is also threatened. It is a former mill town which now is populated by trust funders and yuppies and the people they need to keep them comfy. It is poverty with a view for those who have normal incomes. Maybe this will thin out the less dedicated residents a bit?

Don't move here.

And 2dogs, we girls don't know how to hork. It just wasn't taught. Today I will start bringing in ash infested bedding and kitchen stuff to warsh up.


----------



## northmanlogging

that fire is from wenatchee to Twisp! I heard it was threatening chumstick, and leavanworth, but twisp is miles away...


----------



## Gologit

Oregon is burning....


http://yubanet.com/fire.php


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> that fire is from wenatchee to Twisp! I heard it was threatening chumstick, and leavanworth, but twisp is miles away...


 
There are 3 big complexes. The Chiwaukum is the one by Dur Bavarian Willage. The Mill Creek complex is the Entiat area one. The Carlton complex is the trouble maker and started near Carlton, burned south to Pateros, and I think they are also including one burning across Loup Loup pass, between Okanogan and Twisp. I was listening to AM radio  out of Wenatchee on my way home yesterday. They were saying that residents in the Antoine Cr. area, which is between Chelan and Pateros, were being warned to get ready to get out. So, the Carlton Complex seems to be just expanding outwards.

The Methow Valley had quite a dispute over where to locate powerlines. The PUD wanted to bring in an alternative line up the valley for backup. Some very vocal residents got that stopped. Funny, had they put in that line, both lines would be burned up. There is no power to the Twisp Winthrop area because the line goes over the Loup Loup area and has burned up. That's going to take a while to get back.

Don't move here.


----------



## Metals406

With the valley blocked in with smoke here from all the Warshington fires -- you'd think we'd get a fire of our own? If I gotta breath it, I should get paid for it. [emoji50]

The contractor I work fir cut'n trees on fires is outta Twisp!!

I sure hope Saul and his wife don't get burned out! [emoji20]


----------



## slowp

Looks like we have definitely been Californicated! A slide show of Pateros and the Methow valley.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...-believe-267779141.html?tab=gallery&c=y&img=0


----------



## 2dogs

Are you sure Warshinton is still in America cause all the towns in Collyfornia are in Spaneesh. And Twisp is pronounciated Twips? That just ain't right.


----------



## SliverPicker

Thanks for the great sunsets! And, no, I'm not moving there.....


----------



## slowp

Sounds like most of our state got drowned today. I met a half dozen state DNR engines on their way back home.


----------



## madhatte

Pretty sure they'll be back over there in a week or so. That wasn't much rain at all on the other side of the Cascade crest; seems most of it was on the slopes of the west side. They're reporting about 3" Wednesday total near Kapowsin but only about 1/4" a mere 100 miles east. The mountains wrung the clouds out like a sponge. That will dry out in a hurry.


----------



## Gologit

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1008


----------



## Gologit

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_current


----------



## slowp




----------



## Gologit

http://yubanet.com/nevada/Web.php


----------



## Metals406

Is there a fire on the mountain Lassie?


----------



## slowp

There is another fire, and it is right where some friends of mine own a house. They now rent it out and the tenant has evacuated. Strong points are that it has irrigation around it, and a metal roof. The weak point is an old wooden deck. Keep your fingers crossed, it is a cute little log house that they built by themselves. Up on the hill above it are some McMansions that are second homes to wealthy folks. To the west is the Sun Mountain Lodge.

Once again, it is in the Methow Valley and right in the middle of Twisp and Winthrop. Those folks are getting hammered this year.

It is also across the river from the North Cascades Smokejumper Base. 

Here is a link.

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/42153-WA-NES-512-LOC-Signal-Hill-RD?p=172543#post172543


----------



## DavdH

Updated about every 6 hours,

http://wildlandfire.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicInformation/index.html

http://www.geomac.gov/viewer/viewer.shtml


----------



## madhatte

Had an odd one happen yesterday. I was bossing a dozer on a control line on a steep hill. It was an old D-4 so tired it could barely get out of its own way and sort of wallowed its way sidehill and slid in between two trees, such that the tracks on the starboard side were pinned in place. I called for saw & wedges. What I did was cut about 4 ft up, and threw a snipe in there to jump it over the blade. It worked, and then I more-or-less flushed the stump so the tracks would clear it. First time I ever got a dozer un-stuck with a chainsaw!


----------



## RandyMac

Had a change in weather, the smoke moved out, heavy drizzle moved in. From Orick north, the road sides are still green and growing.


----------



## RandyMac

Probably going to be a salvage sale near laytonville.


----------



## slowp

As long as it isn't IN Laytonville.


----------



## Gologit

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1015


I think there are some very unhappy pot growers in that area.


----------



## Metals406

Got dispatched to Graingville today. Should make it there late tonight, early morning. Inspection is at 7a.m.


----------



## RandyMac

I worked on the fire north of Layton, by that old mill just off 101. The landowner and the Fire Boss were cronies, I felled about 30 good sized pines as part of the "mop up".


----------



## RandyMac

http://lostcoastoutpost.com/2014/aug/7/leggett-meeting-lodge-fire/


----------



## RandyMac

Laytonville is kicking their butts


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## madhatte

250 acres right by the fence yesterday. Lots of neighbors looking and worrying. It crossed the creek in 3 places, something I've never seen it do here before.


----------



## slowp

It has been thundering for several hours and now we are having a downpour and cooler temps.


----------



## Gologit

Send downpour to Burney.


----------



## madhatte

Cooldown is most welcome.


----------



## RandyMac

Happy Camp
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/


----------



## slowp

RandyMac said:


> Happy Camp
> http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/


 Again???


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Again???



Yup. Your favorite part of the country.

There's also this.....http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4035/


----------



## RandyMac

Yes Patty, again. Worse terrain than Laytonville.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Yes Patty, again. Worse terrain than Laytonville.



Fact.


----------



## Grande Dog

Howdy,
Here's some pix I took with my phone. 2 are looking from my place towards the fire, and the other is a view of the base camp.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## RandyMac

Breaking NEWS!!!
Forest fires cause smoke.


----------



## madhatte

Holy whoah, there, now -- you don't gotta get all philosophical on us.


----------



## RandyMac

Oh. to be in the Klamaths now that there are crown-outs.


----------



## slowp

RandyMac said:


> Oh. to be in the Klamaths now that there are crown-outs.


 
No thank you. They usually end up killing somebody on those fires. Dispatch calls other forests--like in Montana, and when they hear Klamath, they usually find a reason to decline coming out to help. Maybe if somebody went ahead and dug out the poison oak?


----------



## RandyMac

slowp said:


> No thank you. They usually end up killing somebody on those fires. Dispatch calls other forests--like in Montana, and when they hear Klamath, they usually find a reason to decline coming out to help. Maybe if somebody went ahead and dug out the poison oak?



We felt the same about King Range fires.


----------



## paccity

not a forest fire but a 36" yard pine went up good. the fire department took care of it. for some reason my phone only saved these. someone lit off the duff and small shrubs at the base. burned all up the stem and took the crown out. would have been quite the sight . prob be back in the future to take two near by pines that got singed.


----------



## RandyMac

Black goes into the burn.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Breaking NEWS!!!
> Forest fires cause smoke.




Hmmm...is that why, on the Laytonville fire, the convict crews are volunteering to work down-wind? I heard that the fire camp had to get an entire extra truckload of Oreos, pretzels, pizza sticks, and other munchies.


----------



## RandyMac

Worst smoke ever, was a big drift burn near the mouth of the Mad. I bucked logs all day, in 10 foot visibility, my eyes and breathing apparatus burned for days after that. They sent two D6s, neither of them made within 100 yards of the fire.


----------



## slowp

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...shington-272256351.html?tab=gallery&c=y&img=0


----------



## 2dogs

Warshington is starting to sound like Cali. Fires and mudslides.


----------



## RandyMac

2dogs said:


> Warshington is starting to sound like Cali. Fires and mudslides.



smite button stutter?


----------



## Metals406

Yeah, Warshington got hit pretty bad this year. I'm actually fairly surprised I didn't get called over.

I got 10 days so far, 4 in Idaho and 6 in MT. We had Canuckistan poo all over us now, so we're cool and wet. Without a warmer/drier September October, fire season is pretty much over for me.

Old Farmer's Almanac is saying a warm spring and dry summer next year, so maybe then?

Here's a pic of our 2 falling mods, I'm the guy on the far left. Sam ('Rounder' on here) is to my left, he was my cut'n pard.


----------



## slowp

2dogs said:


> Warshington is starting to sound like Cali. Fires and mudslides.


 
No earthquakes yet...knock on wood, cross fingers and toes...


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> No earthquakes yet...knock on wood, cross fingers and toes...


And believe me you don't want any earthquakes. I was working the aftermath of the 1989 quake, the losses were dreadful.


----------



## slowp

Nope. Don't want earthquakes. 

There is a distant rumbling going on in the east of here. I hope that a doghair patch of poorly growing lodgepole gets hit and fries. It was once a great huckleberry patch.
Please, please, please....


----------



## slowp

Short video about the Methow fires AKA Carlton Complex.


----------



## slowp

Hmmmm. How does one post a Vimeo video?


----------



## RandyMac

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/

Elk Creek is mentioned, I lived and worked in that area in the late '70s. It is a beautiful stream, I fly fished several miles of it.


----------



## RandyMac

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/27/feds-allows-logging-after-huge-california-wildfire/


----------



## slowp

RandyMac said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/27/feds-allows-logging-after-huge-california-wildfire/


 
Good news but they need to get on it fast. Meanwhile, wait for lawsuits and injunctions.


----------



## madhatte

Pretty sure the FS calculates court costs in as an expense for every timber sale these days.


----------



## Metals406

So do the state and private landholders. Stoltze is one if our last surviving mills. Now, in part because of the terrorist Judge Malloy, they're laying off 10 employees -- & cutting the hours of the rest.

I have family and friends that count on the mill fir a paycheck. The mill has posted "log shortage" for the reason for the layoffs. Many of you have been here. . . We ain't short on logs.

We are however, short on judges and politicians willing to do the right thing. But then who would the greenies pay off?


----------



## slowp

If they are interested, the local mill is often hiring folks. Must be lots of turnover?


----------



## RandyMac

Yesterday the Feds had a containment date of Sept 8th, now it is Sept 20th. Hwy 96 is closed, they are evacuating the North side of 96.
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/4078/24217/


----------



## 2dogs

I have been watching this fire since it began however I don't know that country at all. What is the terrain like?


----------



## RandyMac

Very steep in general, heavy growth, regen, brush, lots of snags and decadent timber. Rocky in some drainages, like Elk creek, thick soil elsewhere, good handline dirt.
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## Double_Diamond

[QUOTE=" What is the terrain like?[/QUOTE]
Kind of like Big Sir with more trees.


----------



## RandyMac

This one might keep burning until the rainy season, assuming we get one.
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> This one might keep burning until the rainy season, assuming we get one.
> http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/



That's mostly government ground. Any bets on when/if it gets salvage logged?


----------



## slowp

It might get salvaged if the Karuks were assured of being able to get the contracts. Otherwise, they'll be against it, unless the relationship between tribe and others has improved.


----------



## RandyMac

"There were four sustained crown runs on the fire today."

Gloriously noisy timber fire events, reduced to ten innocuous words.

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/4078/24297/


----------



## 2dogs

I'd imagine Happy Camp will hit 100,000 acres this afternoon.


----------



## slowp

2dogs said:


> I'd imagine Happy Camp will hit 100,000 acres this afternoon.



There will also be money in Happy Camp for Christmas presents!!


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> There will also be money in Happy Camp for Christmas presents!!



Tough way to make a living.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> There will also be money in Happy Camp for Christmas presents!!



_This _year, maybe.


----------



## madhatte

Uggh, true


----------



## slowp

When I lived down river a bit, a big local fire was a godsend for the local economy. Unless things have changed drastically, that would still be true.


----------



## RandyMac

The HP Complex could get into the Marbles, lots of rotten old growth, few roads, nasty terrain. Watching the columns "bloom" on NOAA satellite views is interesting.


----------



## Metals406

Small fire above my place yesterday.


----------



## madhatte

What's that thing doing today?


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> What's that thing doing today?


Meh, I think this Canadian cold front smacked it down.

I heard 'Goat Creek Fire' on the scanner today. Which, if in the same location, is ironically where I was for the Scout Lake fire last year.

Poopy steep ground.

After Canuckistan craps on us the next few days -- we're supposed to be back in the high 70's. Maybe I might get on one easy little fire? Ya never know?


----------



## madhatte

We're forecasted for an east wind event over this weekend, with temps in the 80's. If we get starts, they should grow quickly.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> We're forecasted for an east wind event over this weekend, with temps in the 80's. If we get starts, they should grow quickly.



Let's hope we get no starts. There was a fire near Mineral already.


----------



## madhatte

Agreed.

EDIT: oh, look... a Red Flag Warning. Imagine that!


----------



## Gologit

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4078/

105,000 acres, 30% containment, cow face ground, hot, dry, windy...you Oregon boys might be getting in on this one.


----------



## RandyMac

Freshwater Lagoon this morning around 8:15



That is not fog, it is vaporized timber


----------



## RandyMac

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/eka/satellite/
click the 1km loop on the left sidebar. Looks like the HP Complex put up a good sized plume.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/eka/satellite/
> click the 1km loop on the left sidebar. Looks like the HP Complex put up a good sized plume.




Good link. Thanks.


----------



## madhatte

Neat! Haven't seen that set of pages before.


----------



## RandyMac

works best late afternoon or early evening, you see most of the day, HPC kicked some asses today.


----------



## RandyMac

http://sat.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/alternative.php?wfo=eka&area=west&type=vis&size=1

onshore breezes are good.


----------



## slowp

http://www.lewiscountysirens.com/


----------



## 2dogs

Happy Camp Complex is up to $68,000,000!
Inciweb says bears are a major problem with the Meadow fire (Yosemite). Crews are spiked out to reduce helicopter traffic but trash is back hauled daily. Wouldn't want a bear to be inconvenced.


----------



## Gologit

Bear roast.


----------



## Gologit

This was came within three miles of the house but we got lucky with the wind direction.

http://yubanet.com/nevada/Dog_Bar.php


----------



## slowp

It is smoky here today. I think the source is the Estacada fire. I don't like it.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> This was came within three miles of the house but we got lucky with the wind direction.
> 
> http://yubanet.com/nevada/Dog_Bar.php


Glad it's out!


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> It is smoky here today. I think the source is the Estacada fire. I don't like it.



Neither does Estacada.


----------



## Gologit

This looks bad for Weed....



http://yubanet.com/CAFires/Boles.php


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> This looks bad for Weed....
> 
> 
> 
> http://yubanet.com/CAFires/Boles.php


13% RH!


----------



## RandyMac

gusty too


----------



## RandyMac

http://www.redding.com/news/local-news/firefighters-battle-200-acre-fire-near-weed


----------



## madhatte

Welcome to Monday! (2 days ago)


----------



## RandyMac

http://www.wunderground.com/radar/r....val=1&setprefs.7.key=RADSMO&setprefs.7.val=1


----------



## Gologit

Bad news....

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1059




Good news...


http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/Alleged-arsonist-arrested-in-King-Fire-5764829.php


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## RandyMac

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/1...-amount-retardant-used-on-explosive-northern/

The King Fire is in the lower right corner, currently filling the Central Valley with smoke.

The Happy Camp fire is getting a boost from NW winds.

http://sat.wrh.noaa.gov/satellite/alternative.php?wfo=eka&area=west&type=vis&size=1


----------



## RandyMac

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news...-in-to-u-local-of-pollock-pines-fire/28058020


----------



## slowp

http://nwpr.org/post/long-running-battle-over-fires-between-ranchers-and-feds-reaches-truce-0


----------



## 2dogs

Just got a call from the King fire. Couldn't take it, committed already plus Cody is working for the County as a temp. Bummer.


----------



## madhatte

Interesting that the article above mentioned the rancher/Fed alliance in NE OR -- the Zumwalt, if I'm not mistaken -- which is a pretty interesting model for how agencies and citizens have learned through trial and error to work together, mostly. There's ODFW land there, and BLM, and NGO outfits like TNC, as well as private ranches. Same historic scuffles, same alliances bred of necessity. This book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Prairie-Keepers-Secrets-Grasslands/dp/020140821X , while a bit outdated, has a good description of how that ended up happening.


----------



## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> Interesting that the article above mentioned the rancher/Fed alliance in NE OR -- the Zumwalt, if I'm not mistaken -- which is a pretty interesting model for how agencies and citizens have learned through trial and error to work together, mostly. There's ODFW land there, and BLM, and NGO outfits like TNC, as well as private ranches. Same historic scuffles, same alliances bred of necessity. This book, while a bit outdated, has a good description of how that ended up happening.


Bad link


----------



## madhatte

Arrgh, another forum change, another time I have to figure out how to do inline links


----------



## forestryworks

I'll pop in to say the book madhatte linked to is excellent. Gonna have to read it again soon.


----------



## Gologit

Mr. Crumpler !!


----------



## forestryworks

Bobster! I owe you a breakfast since you sneakily took the check from the table and went to pay while I scowled from behind the glass of tea. Hard to run with a glass o' tea in your face, ya know?


----------



## Gologit

forestryworks said:


> Bobster! I owe you a breakfast since you sneakily took the check from the table and went to pay while I scowled from behind the glass of tea. Hard to run with a glass o' tea in your face, ya know?




Okay, fair enough. Next time around you are buying breakfast. Is lobster breakfast food?


----------



## RandyMac

CRUMPLER!!!

California is a funny place. http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/eka/
Not one drop of rain for the King Fire, instead they get Red Flagged.


----------



## nbouley010

Might be getting sent out to the King fire with WIC8 crew coming up here. Anyone here possibly heading that way?


----------



## madhatte

forestryworks said:


> I'll pop in to say the book madhatte linked to is excellent. Gonna have to read it again soon.



Pretty sure you sent me my copy!

Also: the last 12 hours' rain was a hard stop to our fire season. It was not unwelcome.


----------



## RandyMac

We can almost write off the Happy Camp Complex, heavy rain occurring today.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Just got a call from the King fire. Couldn't take it, committed already plus Cody is working for the County as a temp. Bummer.


 
You didn't miss anything. They divided the fire into two sections, north and south. CalFire had the south section and FS took the north. Lots of overhead. Lots.


----------



## madhatte

Overhead? On a fire complex? UNHEARD OF


----------



## 2dogs

I'm baaack. Thanks to everyone that helped, especially Saw Troll and Mrs Arboristsite.

Yep it has rained some here in Cali and fall weather has kicked in. WET mornings are the norm.

Man I hate getting my saw stuck. I was bucking a recent blowdown yesterday and stuck my saw tight when the log rolled. Fortunately the truck was only 50 yards away. Still I was almost done with the job but now I couldn't carry two saws, fuel, and a water bottle back up the hill in one trip. My butt is still sore from kicking myself.


----------



## RandyMac

Saws never get stuck next to road.


----------



## madhatte

THIS IS SO COOL http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=240.35,48.93,3000

EDIT: it's a real-time map of wind movement. I'm not sure how it's made but I will find out.


----------



## RandyMac

Big surprise, it was an S2
http://news.yahoo.com/contact-lost-air-tanker-deployed-yosemite-park-fire-011722469.html


----------



## 2dogs

Yeah, very sad. S-2Ts were never built for the stress of fighting wildland fires and I would guess their projected service life would have ended 40 years ago. Replacing these aircraft is just too expensive for the state of California to afford. Thank goodness we have the political will to ban plastic bags.


----------



## RandyMac

Did you ever see that Connie they used as a tanker?


----------



## 2dogs

No never. That must have been a sight. Just seeing an airliner refitted as an air tanker is amazing. VLATs seem to just crawl through the air.
http://www.wimp.com/rimfire/

http://www.wimp.com/firefightingplanes/


----------



## Gologit

http://www.kcra.com/news/evacuation-orders-posted-for-yosemitearea-wildfire/28996162


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Did you ever see that Connie they used as a tanker?


 This one?

http://www.arizonawrecks.com/visitthewrecks/falconconnie.html


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> This one?
> 
> http://www.arizonawrecks.com/visitthewrecks/falconconnie.html


most likely


----------



## madhatte

Whoah, that's quick thinking on the part of the pilot. Tragic loss of crew.


----------



## Gologit

http://yubanet.com/regional/Pilot-Killed-in-Fatal-Airtanker-Crashed-Identified.php#.VDXqPPldWNY


----------



## wyk

abcnews.go.com/US/photos/inside-view-wildfires-california-26381448


----------



## RandyMac

They are still holding their breath in SoCal and some of the south central foothills. We are at 175% of normal rainfall from July 1st, 75% from Jan 1st 9 inches shy of the mark.


----------



## slowp

People suing our fair state concerning the Carlton Complex fires.

http://methowvalleynews.com/2014/10...nst-state-for-losses-in-carlton-complex-fire/


----------



## wyk




----------



## Metals406

reindeer said:


>



Shots are hard ass workers. You have to have your brush wheels to keep up.

I'm looking forward to next season already.


----------



## 2dogs

RandyMac said:


> They are still holding their breath in SoCal and some of the south central foothills. We are at 175% of normal rainfall from July 1st, 75% from Jan 1st 9 inches shy of the mark.


South Central has foothills? Woulda thunkit?


----------



## Gologit

http://yubanet.com/regional/Aerial-...gin-in-King-Fire-Burned-Area.php#.VHEVR4vF-NY


This should be interesting. The last time they tried this all the straw washed downhill or clumped up against snags and stumps. Maybe they have a better method now.
One thing for sure, there's finally a market for rice straw. The rice growers will be grinning.


----------



## northmanlogging

I wonder if it would be cheaper to hydro seed native wild flowers mixed with the appropriate amounts of native timber. The hydro seeding is laced with fibrouse stuff (wood fiber?) to help with erosion short term anyway, the wild flowers would be all pretty and stuff and buy time for the trees to regrow... just a thought and probably more effective the a bunch of flunkies spreading straw around.


----------



## BeatCJ

I'm not sure the typical bulldozers (edit, darned autocorrect) hydroseed mulch would work well in an aerial application. In the undesired(edit, darned autocorrect again) hydroseed blowers it's continually agitated, otherwise the wood fiber settles out and matts in the bottom of the tank. Planes and helicopters don't have an agitator, AFAIK. I bet you could do it in two steps, seed and fertilize, then straw mulch. I think the wood fiber mulch would work poorly in aerial equipment.

Seems like way too much ground to cover with your standard hydroseeder. They are limited to rights of way.


----------



## RandyMac

this could get interesting
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014...ld-care-about-california-moonlight-fire-case/


----------



## Gologit

Good article. Thanks. This has been in the news around here for quite awhile and a lot of people are following it.
It sure sheds a light on CalFire that they'd rather not have. I used to think that CalFire, screwed up as they are, wasn't really a bad outfit and I was surprised that they resorted to this kind of skullduggery. I was naive...as were a lot of people. CalFire's upper management is responsible for this mess and I hope they hang them out to dry.

Sierra Pacific is pissed off and they have every right to be. Sure, they're a big company with deep pockets but that doesn't mean that they're required to be a cash cow for a bunch of greedy bureaucrats.

The only discrepancy I saw in the article was the inference that SPI owned the dozer that started the fire. It was owned by a contract logger. The logger had a fire watchman the day the fire started but he'd gone into town for a soda.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Good article. Thanks. This has been in the news around here for quite awhile and a lot of people are following it.
> It sure sheds a light on CalFire that they'd rather not have. I used to think that CalFire, screwed up as they are, wasn't really a bad outfit and I was surprised that they resorted to this kind of skullduggery. I was naive...as were a lot of people. CalFire's upper management is responsible for this mess and I hope they hang them out to dry.
> 
> Sierra Pacific is pissed off and they have every right to be. Sure, they're a big company with deep pockets but that doesn't mean that they're required to be a cash cow for a bunch of greedy bureaucrats.
> 
> The only discrepancy I saw in the article was the inference that SPI owned the dozer that started the fire. It was owned by a contract logger. The logger had a fire watchman the day the fire started but he'd gone into town for a soda.


World's most expensive soda?


----------



## Metals406

I'm renting the local school gym 3 nights a week to shoot hoops. Hoping to be a little more lean and mean for this season.


----------



## RandyMac

Metals406 said:


> I'm renting the local school gym 3 nights a week to shoot hoops. Hoping to be a little more lean and mean for this season.


try tree planting in the Spring


----------



## Metals406

RandyMac said:


> try tree planting in the Spring


That sounds hard.


----------



## slowp

I think you can plant trees now around here. The rainy season is on.


----------



## 2dogs

Unfortunately several California agencies have "off the books" slush funds. State Parks was nailed to the wall a couple if years ago when investigators found money the Parks had tried to hide when they claimed they were broke and were closing parks while screaming for more money. State people are never prosecuted, they just go out on a stress disability, get the golden handshake and never testify.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Unfortunately several California agencies have "off the books" slush funds. State Parks was nailed to the wall a couple if years ago when investigators found money the Parks had tried to hide when they claimed they were broke and were closing parks while screaming for more money. State people are never prosecuted, they just go out on a stress disability, get the golden handshake and never testify.



Yup. Parks like the one you and I do volunteer work for suffer because of that chicanery.


----------



## Eccentric

That's the truth...


----------



## Gologit

Eccentric said:


> That's the truth...


 Yup. How are things going for you? I didn't know about the family stuff when we were at the GTG or I would have made time to talk.


----------



## Eccentric

Thanks Bob. Hanging in there. Jenn and the girls are doing well. Busy going 100 different directions with all their activities and such. 

Mom's health is going downhill. Some days are better than others. It's hardest on Dad.

I'm dealing with family and work and trying not to go nuts. Could be a hell of a lot worse. Work on saws when I get a few free hours. Go cutting when I have a few more.....


----------



## Gologit

Eccentric said:


> Thanks Bob. Hanging in there. Jenn and the girls are doing well. Busy going 100 different directions with all their activities and such.
> 
> Mom's health is going downhill. Some days are better than others. It's hardest on Dad.
> 
> I'm dealing with family and work and trying not to go nuts. Could be a hell of a lot worse. Work on saws when I get a few free hours. Go cutting when I have a few more.....




Good. Well, not all good but you know what I mean. I got a pm from Bruce today. He's going to mail me a cd of all the stuff you and he shot at Napa. And he's talking about having a post-GTG meeting of some kind.


----------



## Eccentric

Sounds good. Haven't talked much with Bruce since the GTG. PM'd back and forth with Tyler last night and today. Park's weathering the storm OK so far. Got my saws and gear in the back of my pickup in case Tyler needs some help with something that's fallen over a road.


----------



## madhatte

How'd you folks weather that storm, anyway? We're still figuring out how much work cleanup is gonna be.


----------



## Eccentric

On the home front, I got through it with just some water in the garage. Last I heard from Tyler, the park fared well.


----------



## Eccentric

I hope 2Dogs fared well. IIRC, the Santa Cruz area got hit pretty hard.


----------



## Gologit

Twochains or 2dogs?


----------



## DavdH

It rained, a lot, none of the forecast winds which really saved us, rivers topped out just over flood and they are receding, so, to answer the question, very well, much better than expected.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> How'd you folks weather that storm, anyway? We're still figuring out how much work cleanup is gonna be.



Nothing bad here. The Conservancy lost some trees, the Land Trust lost a few, but nothing major. We're in the Sierras again for a while. We had a lot of rain and some wind but nothing horrible..
One bad note though. At the mine there was a good sized Ponderosa with base rot. I mentioned to the Tree Retention Committee (don't ask, the description of the TRC would just make you grind your teeth...think preservationist group within the Conservancy) that if the storm took the tree it was likely going to fall across a historic hand laid rock wall, 100 feet long and ten feet high, left over from the 1800s. Beautiful stone work, artistry that long survived those who built it and gave us an example every day of what men could do with their bare hands. 
The tree, big, old and ugly, would also fall across the main power lines coming onto the property. I mentioned that I could fall the tree _before_ the storm, miss the rock wall and the power lines and all would be well. They declined. They had to have a meeting about it. And confer with other committee members. And study the situation. And have another meeting. And confer some more. And have another meeting.
They finally declined They declined and I argued and I got a whole ration of crap about how loggers just want to cut down everything in sight and clearcut the entire planet and....you know the speech.
I went home.
The storm came, the tree fell over. It took out the power lines. It also took out about twenty feet of rock wall. I drove out this morning and looked at it. 
To keep this on topic...One of the TRC people had parked their car under the power lines. It was, after all, their personal and designated private parking space. The tree hit the car and then the power lines got it. Good thing they weren't in it. Scratch one large Mercedes that was new enough to still have the paper plates on it. Burned it into a pile of slag. 
I'm trying very hard..._very_ hard...not to gloat.



.


----------



## northmanlogging

Do they make a 7.5x11 black and orange sign that says TOLD YOU SO?


----------



## hseII

Gologit said:


> Nothing bad here. The Conservancy lost some trees, the Land Trust lost a few, but nothing major. We're in the Sierras again for a while. We had a lot of rain and some wind but nothing horrible..
> One bad note though. At the mine there was a good sized Ponderosa with base rot. I mentioned to the Tree Retention Committee (don't ask, the description of the TRC would just make you grind your teeth...think preservationist group within the Conservancy) that if the storm took the tree it was likely going to fall across a historic hand laid rock wall, 100 feet long and ten feet high, left over from the 1800s. Beautiful stone work, artistry that long survived those who built it and gave us an example every day of what men could do with their bare hands.
> The tree, big, old and ugly, would also fall across the main power lines coming onto the property. I mentioned that I could fall the tree _before_ the storm, miss the rock wall and the power lines and all would be well. They declined. They had to have a meeting about it. And confer with other committee members. And study the situation. And have another meeting. And confer some more. And have another meeting.
> They finally declined They declined and I argued and I got a whole ration of crap about how loggers just want to cut down everything in sight and clearcut the entire planet and....you know the speech.
> I went home.
> The storm came, the tree fell over. It took out the power lines. It also took out about twenty feet of rock wall. I drove out this morning and looked at it.
> To keep this on topic...One of the TRC people had parked their car under the power lines. It was, after all, their personal and designated private parking space. The tree hit the car and then the power lines got it. Good thing they weren't in it. Scratch one large Mercedes that was new enough to still have the paper plates on it. Burned it into a pile of slag.
> I'm trying very hard..._very_ hard...not to gloat. .



Some People won't listen regardless of how sound, rational, and intelligent another view is.


----------



## DavdH

You can't make this stuff up, multiple likes......


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Nothing bad here. The Conservancy lost some trees, the Land Trust lost a few, but nothing major. We're in the Sierras again for a while. We had a lot of rain and some wind but nothing horrible..
> One bad note though. At the mine there was a good sized Ponderosa with base rot. I mentioned to the Tree Retention Committee (don't ask, the description of the TRC would just make you grind your teeth...think preservationist group within the Conservancy) that if the storm took the tree it was likely going to fall across a historic hand laid rock wall, 100 feet long and ten feet high, left over from the 1800s. Beautiful stone work, artistry that long survived those who built it and gave us an example every day of what men could do with their bare hands.
> The tree, big, old and ugly, would also fall across the main power lines coming onto the property. I mentioned that I could fall the tree _before_ the storm, miss the rock wall and the power lines and all would be well. They declined. They had to have a meeting about it. And confer with other committee members. And study the situation. And have another meeting. And confer some more. And have another meeting.
> They finally declined They declined and I argued and I got a whole ration of crap about how loggers just want to cut down everything in sight and clearcut the entire planet and....you know the speech.
> I went home.
> The storm came, the tree fell over. It took out the power lines. It also took out about twenty feet of rock wall. I drove out this morning and looked at it.
> To keep this on topic...One of the TRC people had parked their car under the power lines. It was, after all, their personal and designated private parking space. The tree hit the car and then the power lines got it. Good thing they weren't in it. Scratch one large Mercedes that was new enough to still have the paper plates on it. Burned it into a pile of slag.
> I'm trying very hard..._very_ hard...not to gloat.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Oh no, you should gloat. . . A lot!

You should have a shirt made that reads "I said cut the tree", and wear it any time you're near those pretentious a-holes.

P.s. Your story made me smile, score 1 for the little guy.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> I'm trying very hard..._very_ hard...not to gloat.



Best of luck there. Really.


----------



## slowp

Karma lives!


----------



## Eccentric

Gologit said:


> Twochains or 2dogs?



2Dogs. Was thinking of Bill and Cody. Don't know why I mixed them up....


----------



## 2dogs

Cody and I are fine and have nearly dried out. His job with the County ended this past week and the gf finished finals so they are heading to San Diego for a week. We closed the tree lot a few hours ago so tomorrow morning I head down to the Little Sur drainage to clear several blowdowns. That little micro-climate received 22 1/2" of rain during the last two systems. The big slide has been cleared and 4 mile dirt road is open. I will probably post a few pics later on the week especially if I buy a new laptop.

Dang , I am really tired.


----------



## Eccentric

Glad to hear you're OK Bill.


----------



## madhatte

22 1/2" of rain! That's crazy!


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> 22 1/2" of rain! That's crazy!



That's California...home of the micro-climate.


----------



## 2dogs

I woke up this morning at 04:30 after working 17 days straight and listened to the rain on the air conditioner and thought "nope, not today". No two hour drive, no sawing in the rain, no two hour drive home. A grove of 4 or 5 redwoods came down, nothing bigger than 48" (I hope), it can wait a couple of days. I just talked to the Ranger and he said it is raining an inch an hour right now. I have a fire in the fireplace.


----------



## Gologit

Just right. Those trees aren't going anywhere.


----------



## BeatCJ

Gologit said:


> Just right. Those trees aren't going anywhere.


Downstream?


----------



## 2dogs

So OK I know this isn't the Axe Men forum but hear me out. Last night I plopped into my recliner chair with a pollo asado burrito to watch some football. Unfortunately it was the Cowgirls vs. the Beagles neither of whom I like, especially Tony Chokemo. Anyway I started flipping channels during the ads and came across AxeMen. The show about a family of loggers trying to get a tree length load up a slippery road with a excavator pushing the logs. Never having hauled logs can you push on the longest logs without them ending up in the cab? Also if you watched you saw an excavator with the worsr tracks I have ever seen. At least one grouser was broken in half. I never saw the sprocket but it could not have looked good.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Never having hauled logs can you push on the longest logs without them ending up in the cab?


 

If you're loading and you know you're probably going to push the truck you can leave one or two bunk logs hanging back a ways over the rear bunk. That works well on 40 footers. If you're loading 32s and don't have any room to hang one over the back bunk you can put butt a couple of shorties in the middle of the load and push on them. Having the logs hanging over the back keeps from having to push on the back of the reach...that's a no-no,
Just make sure you load as tightly as possible. If helps if the driver puts his tail wrapper on and ties to the rear bunk before he leaves the landing.
Most of the trucks use the single edge bunk now instead of the old Hassel-style troughs. The single edge, being sharper, seems to help hold the logs on better. 
Now, all that being said, if the guy pushing doesn't pay attention or you get a meathead driver who tries to catch a gear while he's being pushed, yes you can wind up with logs moving forward. Doesn't happen very often though.


----------



## BeatCJ

Gologit said:


> http://yubanet.com/regional/Aerial-...gin-in-King-Fire-Burned-Area.php#.VHEVR4vF-NY
> 
> 
> This should be interesting. The last time they tried this all the straw washed downhill or clumped up against snags and stumps. Maybe they have a better method now.
> One thing for sure, there's finally a market for rice straw. The rice growers will be grinning.


I see Wildfire Today has an article. His photos of the treated area sure look good.

Aerial Mulching


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Well around here tree planting is on. Once the trees go dormant and the soil has good moisture..in the trees go. We sure are losing a lot of forest acres to farm and housing development which kind of makes me sick. 

It's starting to rain some..already got over 5+" so that's ruining our RX burns but we did some before the rain. Nothing like the smell of woods burning that's not a wildfire. 








I've been installing firebreaks on landowners properties...got stuck....as usual.


----------



## BeatCJ

PNW Fire people are starting to whisper. It's starting to look like we may be setting up for a drier/more severe fire season than last year. Still lots of time to get caught up. Looking at the Climate Anomaly maps is kind of misleading, so much of our rainfall has been during runoff events, I suspect we are drier than the maps indicate. I suppose we will know in 10 months or so how things went.
Feb to April Projected temps:







And Projected rainfall:


----------



## slowp

Fire people have always made grave predictions this time of year. Those predictions usually change in a couple of months.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

slowp said:


> Fire people have always made grave predictions this time of year. Those predictions usually change in a couple of months.


Well were not God but usually the forecasters usually look at past weather patterns but still...things change


----------



## BeatCJ

For us Wetsiders, this time of year really doesn't affect our local Fire seasons anyway, May and June rainfall, and late summer weather are a much bigger factor. 

But it's a lot more fun to talk about Fire than my last flu patient. Body fluids, ugh....


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Fire people have always made grave predictions this time of year. Those predictions usually change in a couple of months.



CalFire is good at that. Every year is going to be THE WORST YEAR EVER! Me, I always hope _last year_ was the worst year ever. We're running out of places that haven't burned.


----------



## gary courtney

here is a bad one we worked Gologit


----------



## gary courtney

another day in paradise


----------



## slowp

If it is a wet and snowy winter, the following summer will be declared to be a scary fire season, because the grass will be tall and burn. If it is a dry winter, the following summer will be declared to be a scary fire season because the fuel moisture will be low. No matter what, the prediction in January will be for an upcoming scary season. It might be budget driven???

Who knows? It could be like 1981, when we had a low snow pack and then it seemed to rain all summer.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

gary courtney said:


> View attachment 393643
> View attachment 393642
> another day in paradise


Yer burning the tops out of them pines!


----------



## gary courtney

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> Yer burning the tops out of them pines!


we are backfiring on south perimeter of a 200 acre fire! started from trash pile got into neighbors pines!


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

slowp said:


> If it is a wet and snowy winter, the following summer will be declared to be a scary fire season, because the grass will be tall and burn. If it is a dry winter, the following summer will be declared to be a scary fire season because the fuel moisture will be low. No matter what, the prediction in January will be for an upcoming scary season. It might be budget driven???
> 
> Who knows? It could be like 1981, when we had a low snow pack and then it seemed to rain all summer.


The wet this winter and dry this summer stuff could be true for us in the Southeast.
it will rain this winter and once spring hits...all of our brush will grow thicker if it already isnt. You might come down here to the Southeast and see out humidity is high and won't think things would burn in the spring or summer but that's when we get the chemicals in the plants which love fire to come up during the plants growth thus making fires burn hot.

We have lots of fires in the winter because everything is dry but usually in the summer and spring that's when we have extremely hot fires.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

gary courtney said:


> we are backfiring on south perimeter of a 200 acre fire! started from trash pile got into neighbors pines!


That's what I was thinking cause I knew that those pines werent longleaf...look like slash.

Who plowed it out?


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> No matter what, the prediction in January will be for an upcoming scary season. It might be budget driven???


 LOL...Ya think? We voted in an additional fire tax/fee kinda thing last year and they're still screaming for more money. Maybe if they got rid of some of the useless overhead on some of the big fires they might save a little money. Naaaaah....never happen.
I like that emoticon.... Very appropriate.


----------



## gary courtney

we were on 2 fires yesterday, this is usually our greatest here in n.e. texas, but we have had wet weather lately. we had a few firefighters from Georgia a few years back came in to help us! around the year 2000 , you one of them ?


----------



## gary courtney

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> That's what I was thinking cause I knew that those pines werent longleaf...look like slash.
> 
> Who plowed it out?


Texas Forestry Service/ loblolly


----------



## M_S_S

Gologit said:


> LOL...Ya think? We voted in an additional fire tax/fee kinda thing last year and they're still screaming for more money. Maybe if they got rid of some of the useless overhead on some of the big fires they might save a little money. Naaaaah....never happen.
> I like that emoticon.... Very appropriate.


I am not a logger or a forester, but I do know the government, anything they do is damn top heavy and slow. They waste enough money to feed the homeless lol. ED


----------



## gary courtney

M_S_S said:


> I am not a logger or a forester, but I do know the government, anything they do is damn top heavy and slow. They waste enough money to feed the homeless lol. ED


we were on a fire sept. 2011 called Bear creek fire and I seen first hand fema and nims in action.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

gary courtney said:


> we were on 2 fires yesterday, this is usually our greatest here in n.e. texas, but we have had wet weather lately. we had a few firefighters from Georgia a few years back came in to help us! around the year 2000 , you one of them ?




I was kind of thinking they were pretty limby to be slash.

No, I'm a young buck, I started volunteering in high school with them in 2008ish and then got the job after I left a timber company in 2011 when we had the Honey Prairie Wildfire.

I see some Texas forest service cards in our office time to time while piddling through the drawers. I've heard guys who've been here longer than me talking about the fires in Texas and how good the food was out there. Maybe one day I'll go but hate seeing people lose stuff but that's going to happen.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

M_S_S said:


> I am not a logger or a forester, but I do know the government, anything they do is damn top heavy and slow. They waste enough money to feed the homeless lol. ED



We call it "hurry up and wait".


----------



## 2dogs

There is a new vid put up on youtube today called "The Rim Fire". It is worth your time to watch it even with its granola flavor. Kinda funny how the 'ologists are now saying the same thing the ranchers and rednecks were saying back in the sixties. We need more fire on the ground.


----------



## 2dogs

I was contacted by Cal Fire today. Our safety class will be in May.

BTW there was a wildland fire in Pacifica today that burned 5 acres and required 90 homes to be evacuated. It was 84 degrees in Watsonville yesterday.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Lol 5 acre fire. 90 homes evacuated? Yall go far out..but I guess rather be safe than sorry.

It's warm one day here..cold the next..dry the next...wet the next...repeat.


----------



## 2dogs

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> Lol 5 acre fire. 90 homes evacuated? Yall go far out..but I guess rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> It's warm one day here..cold the next..dry the next...wet the next...repeat.


Well I guess Georgia is as flat... No never mind.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Well I guess Georgia is as flat... No never mind.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

2dogs said:


> Well I guess Georgia is as flat... No never mind.



Our region varies from mountainous (not rocky mtn high), to hilly, to swamp and peat bogs, to ocean.

You need to come here And visit.


----------



## 2dogs

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> Our region varies from mountainous (not rocky mtn high), to hilly, to swamp and peat bogs, to ocean.
> 
> You need to come here And visit.


As long as there are no rednecks.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

2dogs said:


> As long as there are no rednecks.


Eh, I'm not into that "redneck" crap. I'm just a southerner. Cheese grits, sweet tea, and gator tail. No moonshIne.


----------



## madhatte

I lived in the south for several years -- FL, SC, VA -- and in all 3 places, I had to go a _good_ ways to find anything I'd call "hills". It mostly bugged me because I'm used to navigating by mountains. How the hell am I supposed to know where I am when there's no mountain to point at?


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

madhatte said:


> I lived in the south for several years -- FL, SC, VA -- and in all 3 places, I had to go a _good_ ways to find anything I'd call "hills". It mostly bugged me because I'm used to navigating by mountains. How the hell am I supposed to know where I am when there's no mountain to point at?



Well that what gets us about our fires down herE. WE HAVE to have aircraft to scout for us buy mostly we dont unless we really need them.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

We also have random drop offs in some locations..even here in Southeast ga.

Sinkholes too.


----------



## madhatte

I remember that. I rolled into Orlando in June 1998, right when the whole place went up in flames. As I recall, they declared Martial Law in Flagler County. The only shade was smoke. I was in a Navy "A" school at the time so I wasn't on any of the fires, but I remember them clearly, as well as the following months, where the black sprouted saw palmettos like lawn grass and it was like nothing happened at all by Christmas.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

madhatte said:


> I remember that. I rolled into Orlando in June 1998, right when the whole place went up in flames. As I recall, they declared Martial Law in Flagler County. The only shade was smoke. I was in a Navy "A" school at the time so I wasn't on any of the fires, but I remember them clearly, as well as the following months, where the black sprouted saw palmettos like lawn grass and it was like nothing happened at all by Christmas.


Yep, that's how it usually goes...ready for the next season to burn.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> I lived in the south for several years -- FL, SC, VA -- and in all 3 places, I had to go a _good_ ways to find anything I'd call "hills". It mostly bugged me because I'm used to navigating by mountains. How the hell am I supposed to know where I am when there's no mountain to point at?



I had that problem in WI. Compass, shadows and eventually, a gps helped. There were lots of roads in that place.


----------



## madhatte

Roads + Borrow pits - Mountains = no parallel lines anywhere = me, totally lost, all the time


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Well I'm sitting in the woods Now...stuck....harrows messed up too. What a day. 

Thought the jd 750 wouldn't get stuck.


----------



## BeatCJ

Posted on Wildfire Today: http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/01/29...ped-burn-piles-near-eldorado-national-forest/

Another season with no break.


----------



## Gologit

BeatCJ said:


> Posted on Wildfire Today: http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/01/29...ped-burn-piles-near-eldorado-national-forest/
> 
> Another season with no break.



In California there is no "season". There are just times of the year with less activity than others. 

This has been the driest January on record.


----------



## BeatCJ

I remember as a kid seeing fire on the Angeles NF from our house. I don't remember any December to April fires, but we were only there about 5 years, just after the Sylmar earthquake.


----------



## BeatCJ

February 3rd, The Big Burn on PBS. I'm sure the film will have a point of view, but the event has shaped 100 years of land/fire management philosophy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/burn/


----------



## slowp

BeatCJ said:


> February 3rd, The Big Burn on PBS. I'm sure the film will have a point of view, but the event has shaped 100 years of land/fire management philosophy.
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/burn/



The film follows the book content closely. It's been on before.


----------



## BeatCJ

I don't believe this show has. It was SUPPOSED to be released in September 2014, but was delayed.

From Wildfire Today: After the confusion about when “The Fire that Changed Everything – The Big Burn” would be aired, it now appears certain that it will be on PBS February 3. As you probably know, the fires of 1910 affected wildland fire management for the next 100 years.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/01/29/behind-the-scenes-at-the-big-burn/ and
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/01/25/on-pbs-the-big-burn-the-fires-of-1910/

From PBS Website: "Big Burn" premieres February 3, 2015 on PBS American Experience.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/burn/player/


----------



## Metals406

I'm excited for the upcoming season, & a bit apprehensive.

Wish it was a safer way to make a buck and folks didn't lose life and property. That's why I like fires around here, usually they just burn timber (which we should log).

Rt-130 class coming up soon.

I'm going to buy a 45 pound weight vest this year. Going to wear it shooting hoops 3 days a week. That should adequately whoop my butt into shape.


----------



## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> I'm excited for the upcoming season, & a bit apprehensive.
> 
> I'm going to buy a 45 pound weight vest this year. Going to wear it shooting hoops 3 days a week. That should adequately whoop my butt into shape.



Very smart Nate. I've been carrying an extra 45lbs all winter. When I take it off I'll be a stud. I just can't find the release.


----------



## Gologit

Bill, when you find that release let me know where it is. I could stand to trim down a bit.
But not today...home made shrimp fettucine for dinner with pumpkin pie for dessert.


----------



## 2dogs

There is some discussion down here about ending the burn season at the end of this month rather than the end of April. I heard this all second hand but it will not surprise me if it happens. I think we have gone about 6 weeks without measureable rainfall.


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> Very smart Nate. I've been carrying an extra 45lbs all winter. When I take it off I'll be a stud. I just can't find the release.


HAHAHA!!


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> There is some discussion down here about ending the burn season at the end of this month rather than the end of April. I heard this all second hand but it will not surprise me if it happens. I think we have gone about 6 weeks without measureable rainfall.


Seems like the last two years, the east coast is stealing all the weather.

All the way into the south.

Maybe we're the new east coast?


----------



## 2dogs

Cal Fire has Hired Vendor Safety classes posted on its web site. There is a class just a few miles from me on March 7th but I have to be in two different places already on that day. Hhmm. Now I am either gonna have to drive 400 miles round trip or take the class from a private company and still drive 80 miles. I will now have to have my contract signed on another day and have my truck and saws inspected a third day. Still thinking.


----------



## RandyMac

That fire way South and East was charmer, burnt 40 buildings.


----------



## Metals406

RandyMac said:


> That fire way South and East was charmer, burnt 40 buildings.


That's no good. :0(


----------



## 2dogs

Take a look at wildfiretoday.com and check out the trailer for "Unacceptable Risk". It is about climate change and wildland firefighting.


----------



## madhatte

Saw that. Will be looking forward to seeing the whole documentary. If nothing else, the cinematography is impressive.


----------



## BeatCJ

Do you know if they will be releasing it for general distribution? I see the Story Group has another short video on their website. http://thestorygroup.org/co-fire-2/ It's told from a point of view, has an agenda. Not to say it's wrong or right, just an FYI.


----------



## BeatCJ

Has anyone here heard of Caney Springs Volunteer Fire Department in Tennessee? I was recently contacted about donating some equipment, and was wondering if they are a bonafide fire department.


----------



## BeatCJ

http://www.columbian.com/news/2015/feb/21/early-season-brush-fire-burns-quarter-acre-near-fa/
Not supposed to be doing this in February in Washington on the West side of the Cascades.


----------



## madhatte

I guess we'll be de-winterizing at least one type 6 engine, then.


----------



## BeatCJ

We use ours year round. EMS calls, they are a lot easier to deal with our local driveways. And, most importantly, they have winches, so when the ambulance makes a poor choice of parking place...

We have enough room to keep them all inside and heated, keep the unstaffed stations at 45°.


----------



## madhatte

We have an acre and a half of uncovered motor pool. The engines all look so sad this time of year.


----------



## madhatte

There is a new Heavy Equipment Boss training available as of now (S-236), along with a handbook of equipment and contractors.


----------



## hseII

madhatte said:


> There is a new Heavy Equipment Boss training available as of now (S-236), along with a handbook of equipment and contractors.


Invalid URL?...


----------



## madhatte

Fixed. Sorry about that!


----------



## Gologit

This is from Madhatte's latest post... I like it.


----------



## Metals406

It's easy sometimes for the command structure to get too goal focused, and they can forget about the human element.

That's why it's good for us to say NO if we feel unsafe.


----------



## Gologit

Metals406 said:


> It's easy sometimes for the command structure to get too goal focused, and they can forget about the human element.
> 
> That's why it's good for us to say NO if we feel unsafe.



Yup. It's easy to get that "I can do that" attitude. Sometimes we can...and get away with it. Sometimes not, too. 
A couple of years ago I was running dozer on a fire. They wanted me to walk it up a ridge line and start cutting. Time was very tight and the winds were picking up.. There was slick-rock to cross and it had some slope to it. You can guess the rest. The dozer stayed on it's feet but it slid sideways a long way and made a couple of 360s before it fetched up against some timber. I never should have tried that crossing but I let a dozer boss talk me into it. That was my mistake, not his. He was just a kid without a lot of real experience. I should have told him no. Pride got in the way of judgement.
I always figure I'll do everything I can but I won't let somebody else put me in a position that I know is dangerous. Okay, wrong word...I won't let somebody else put me in a position that's _stupid._


----------



## 2dogs

The IRPG has a good section on how to turn down risk. I have used that outline successfully myself. The IC wanted a burning euc cut down but it was in loose shale and 100% slope. In addition the tree was burning from ground level to 20' up. He asked me to cut it, I said "No" and he said "Fine". He later told me he didn't think it could be done just thought maybe I was crazy enough to try it. He was less than half my age and truthfully he should never have asked.


----------



## Metals406

My falling pard and I turned down an assignment last year, along with three Shot crews. Too steep, too many trees falling on their own above us, too much risk. At 300' above the creek below, our snags would run to the bottom and blow up.

The Div trainee wanted to be able to say he had line on all sides of his Division. The problem was there was no reason to on that leg. It was 1,000 vert feet up and died off at a cliff face.

Two days of rain had squashed the fires advance, & it was late season. The fire couldn't even push past 5,500 feet before it fizzled out.

I'll be called a ***** before I go against my gut instinct on a fire.


----------



## 2dogs

I just completed the required annual fire training for faller today. The FSTEP class really stressed weather and climate change though I felt it was too heavy on the hand crew side of things considering most of us stay in or close to our vehicles.


----------



## Gologit

I took the F-Step classes last week but I really think I'll just sit this one out. Just can't seem to work up any enthusiasm for it.


----------



## BeatCJ

I've had years like that. A break is always a good thing.


----------



## 2dogs

Yeah Bob I understand. At least they have increased the pay enough to make it worthwhile to travel for a one or two day fire. $1650.00/day for a faller and $1900.00/day for a faller/swamper module. I would never work without a swamper or a second faller.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Yeah Bob I understand. At least they have increased the pay enough to make it worthwhile to travel for a one or two day fire. $1650.00/day for a faller and $1900.00/day for a faller/swamper module. I would never work without a swamper or a second faller.


 
Me either. Another set of eyes or somebody to go for help is always a good thing to have. My BIL and I used to partner up but since he's gone it's hard to find somebody I'm comfortable working with.


----------



## madhatte

First fire of the year today. Couple of acres in broom and slash with grass and moss underneath. Cut the old track out with a dozer and lit it off. Not a big deal, but very early. It's supposed to rain for the next few days.


----------



## 2dogs

A USFS firefighter and a contract pilot were killed in a helicopter crash yesterday. Another ff was injured in the crash somewhere in Mississippi.


----------



## Gologit

Okay Californians...it's official. Governor Moonbeam issued a proclamation that we're really truly actually experiencing a drought.
He also declared that this would be the worst fire season he's experienced in over 1000 years. Funny, he doesn't _look_ that old.


----------



## 2dogs

So how are we doing on that pipeline to the Columbia river? Those northerners are just wasting that water letting it flow into the ocean. Those sidewalks in SoCal need to be watered.


----------



## Gologit

SSSSSHHHHH!!! I don't think they know. Yet. If they Google Earth the L.A. area and see all those swimming pools they'll get upset and turn off the tap.

I'm doing my part. I'm boycotting broccoli.


----------



## slowp

Time to get the billboards up. Visit but don't stay. Don't Californicate Warshington, unless you buy my place for an obscene amount of money ...

I think Iowa wants Californians to move there.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Time to get the billboards up. Visit but don't stay. Don't Californicate Warshington, unless you buy my place for an obscene amount of money ...
> 
> I think Iowa wants Californians to move there.



Iowa? People actually move there? Voluntarily? Wow.

Don't worry about us pipe-lining your water down here. Too much trouble. We're using barges instead.


----------



## slowp

Gologit said:


> Iowa? People actually move there? Voluntarily? Wow.
> 
> Don't worry about us pipe-lining your water down here. Too much trouble. We're using barges instead.



I heard a whole hour of radio discussion about that. Barges and desalinization plants. Except the latter might invite a lot of enviro protest and that would add to the cost. They also discussed piping water from areas like--Iowa--and storing it in the ground. No mention of the Columbia. Not a peep. What about railroad tank cars of water? Those wouldn't explode.


----------



## madhatte

I got taken by this April Fool's joke... but only for a minute.


----------



## Gologit

Right. We're just joking. Uh huh. We wouldn't take your water. 
Never mind those ships cleverly disguised as oil tankers headed down the Columbia toward the sea. They're riding low in the water because of ballast. Yeah, that's it. Ballast.
Nothing for you fine folks to worry about.
I'll be back later. I have to call my broker and buy more stock in the tanker companies and a couple of barge lines that show promise.


----------



## madhatte

water you talking about


----------



## northmanlogging

maybe all the dirty hippies can do some more culture appropriations and recreate some native rain dances... or sacrifice a bunny or two... just saying


----------



## BeatCJ

You all can quit worrying. Our Columbia water won't meet California standards, it flows waaayyyy to close to both Hanford and Umatilla. They can't risk being contaminated by the nuclear waste or the nerve gas.


----------



## 2dogs

Bob you and I aren't into drugs but we do drink water. How's about we hire Patty to be our water mule? She could build secret compartments into her trailer and smuggle water down to us at the GTGs. It's risky but I think it worth it.


----------



## Gologit

BeatCJ said:


> You all can quit worrying. Our Columbia water won't meet California standards, it flows waaayyyy to close to both Hanford and Umatilla. They can't risk being contaminated by the nuclear waste or the nerve gas.



Hmmmm...that's okay, we can still take it. We'll just make sure the radioactive water goes south to the L A area. Most southern Californians probably wouldn't even notice if they glowed in the dark. Or particularly care either. It might even start a new fashion trend.
As far as the nerve gas goes, after breathing southern California air their bodies have built up an amazing immunity to toxins. I don't see any problem.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Bob you and I aren't into drugs but we do drink water. How's about we hire Patty to be our water mule? She could build secret compartments into her trailer and smuggle water down to us at the GTGs. It's risky but I think it worth it.



I like that idea. She has my old trailer now and I'll bet you could fill the whole thing with water and it wouldn't leak a drop. Maybe we could outfit it with spray booms and she could hire out to irrigate broccoli fields.


----------



## BeatCJ

As a bonus, we could pretreat it with Haldol for you.


----------



## slowp

You ought to be used to radiation because of all the Fukushima death rays in the ocean.


----------



## slowp

Cliff Mass says you folks are going to get inches of rain next week.

_During the next week an upper level trough will move down the coast, first bringing precipitation to the Northwest and THEN TO CALIFORNIA! You had to know that when California's governor announces major drought measures that it was going to rain.
_
You are welcome...


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> Cliff Mass says you folks are going to get inches of rain next week.
> 
> _During the next week an upper level trough will move down the coast, first bringing precipitation to the Northwest and THEN TO CALIFORNIA! You had to know that when California's governor announces major drought measures that it was going to rain.
> _
> You are welcome...




That's good news. We'll be able to stockpile the Columbia water barge deliveries for future use.


----------



## 2dogs

Fire in the Sequoia-Kings, two tankers (P2V, S2T), Red Flag warnings, exceptional drought. slowp we need that water right now!


----------



## BeatCJ

Have some patience, it was sent via the USPS. Would you like to make a claim?


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> Cliff Mass says you folks are going to get inches of rain next week.
> 
> _During the next week an upper level trough will move down the coast, first bringing precipitation to the Northwest and THEN TO CALIFORNIA! You had to know that when California's governor announces major drought measures that it was going to rain.
> _
> You are welcome...


LIES! All lies, it doesn't rain here anymore. Burn her!


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> LIES! All lies, it doesn't rain here anymore. Burn her!


 Raining in Fortuna. Want some?


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> Raining in Fortuna. Want some?


YES PLEASE!


----------



## northmanlogging

Soooo

How long do you suppose it would take for Caliphonia to burn to the ground? 6 monthes? a year?


----------



## Gologit

northmanlogging said:


> Soooo
> 
> How long do you suppose it would take for Caliphonia to burn to the ground? 6 monthes? a year?


 Who knows what with the drought and the dry woods conditions? After the last couple of years there isn't that much to burn that hasn't burned already.
We don't really have a "fire season" anymore. We just have a couple of months during the winter when fire activity slows down.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Who knows what with the drought and the dry woods conditions? After the last couple of years there isn't that much to burn that hasn't burned already.
> We don't really have a "fire season" anymore. We just have a couple of months during the winter when fire activity slows down.


God is angry with Collyfornia fir making too many boy bands.


----------



## Gologit

Metals406 said:


> God is angry with Collyfornia fir making too many boy bands.


 Keeping track are you?  That's okay, a state that elected Arnold Schwartsenegger...twice...probably deserves anything that happens to it.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Keeping track are you?  That's okay, a state that elected Arnold Schwartsenegger...twice...probably deserves anything that happens to it.


Like any state, there's some good folks in it.

CA just seems to have more than its fair share of idiots -- & they seem to love running for public office.

Coincidence?


----------



## slowp

I am back after a "Those modems are obsolete" crash and a quickie vacation to the sagebrush. Is Collyfonia going to get this storm too? We have a winter storm warning for above 2500 feet elevation and it has started to rain here. I'll send some of it south, except we need the snow pack.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> I am back after a "Those modems are obsolete" crash and a quickie vacation to the sagebrush. Is Collyfonia going to get this storm too? We have a winter storm warning for above 2500 feet elevation and it has started to rain here. I'll send some of it south, except we need the snow pack.


 Dunno. Earlier this week we got almost 2" in 24 hours. Where we are isn't too bad.
Ssssshhhhh, don't tell the almond growers.


----------



## BeatCJ

Metals406 said:


> Like any state, there's some good folks in it.
> 
> CA just seems to have more than its fair share of idiots -- & they seem to love running for public office.
> 
> Coincidence?


I don't think it's more than their fair share, it's a similar ratio per capita. And that they're the home of the advertising industry, so they show them off better.


----------



## Gologit

Here we go....

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4168/


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> I am back after a "Those modems are obsolete" crash and a quickie vacation to the sagebrush. Is Collyfonia going to get this storm too? We have a winter storm warning for above 2500 feet elevation and it has started to rain here. I'll send some of it south, except we need the snow pack.


 Well burn season was declared over yesterday so I guess that means no storm at least this far south. Warm dry winds are the order of the day.
Cody took his annual FSTEP Fireline Safety for the Hired Vendor yesterday. He headed to his GFs (after another meeting) right after and I won't see him for a day or two. There was a small fire nearby today but nothing came of it but Cody had heard about it before I did so I hope he is a little more enthusiastic this year. Cody is gone all of June, July, and August but most of our local fire are in September and October anyway.


----------



## Metals406

Fire forecasts are grim for this year.


----------



## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> Fire forecasts are grim for this year.


Yes they are. There is a good video on Wildfiretoday.com about climate change driven wildfires in Cali. It may be hard to find, it was put up IIRC in Feb or early March by Cal Fire.


----------



## madhatte

We've already had 2 small ones, and neither were in the usual places. That's a bit ominous.


----------



## BeatCJ

I saw they had Red Flag Warnings south of the Ward Fire, too. The Wildfire Hotlist has a pretty long thread about Fire Season Potential. It got derailed a bit when Fire was compared to war, but too many people need something to do. I got all of our Red Cards in my e-mail last week, we're ready to go. Only had to run three separate sessions of the class to get everybody through, that's a good year.


----------



## slowp

http://nwpr.org/post/heres-why-it-will-be-bad-year-northwest-or-maybe-not


----------



## BeatCJ

Funny, in that they talk about The Blob. Cliff Mass talks about The Blob too, but how the Media has it wrong, the weather isn't a result of The Blob, The Blob is a result of the weather. Splitting hairs, but I would hope NPR would take the time to get it right.

Cliff Mass Blog: Article


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> http://nwpr.org/post/heres-why-it-will-be-bad-year-northwest-or-maybe-not


It is a different situation down here. While snowpack levels reached 4% of normal this year our rainfall totals are not any better. Because of this grass will be short and bunchy. Fire won't run as well and there may be fewer starts than normal. The big problem is extremely low fuel moisture levels. 1000 hour fuels will be looking like 100 fuels. We will likely be looking at larger, more intense fires. Hopefully mother nature has a wildcard up her sleeve. like maybe rains will begin early. If not then we will have to move to Warshington so we can water the sidewalks.


----------



## BeatCJ

Only watering I do is the garden. Grass is SUPPOSED to turn brown in August. No sidewalks with 5 miles of my place, but it is time to power wash the green skunge off of the vinyl siding.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> We've already had 2 small ones, and neither were in the usual places. That's a bit ominous.


Had one over 1k acres last month in southern MT.

Not a good sign.

We usually have snow into April, sometimes June.


----------



## BeatCJ

We had several in March, but then April turned off entirely normal. I suspect that help is going to be hard to come by, I think that the population of California is going to expand. Of course, the eastern half of the country will have people available to help. Wasn't it a slow year in Montana last year?


----------



## SliverPicker

We've got fire restrictions in place in some areas already. On Tuesday there was a red flag warning up to 9000 feet. Now that is freakish. Mid april in northern Colorado and there is a red flag to 9000 feet. Sumthin' just ain't right there!


----------



## Metals406

BeatCJ said:


> We had several in March, but then April turned off entirely normal. I suspect that help is going to be hard to come by, I think that the population of California is going to expand. Of course, the eastern half of the country will have people available to help. Wasn't it a slow year in Montana last year?


NW Montana was slow, not southern MT. They're hurting fir moisture.


----------



## 2dogs

RH was 20% today but a few miles south in the Salinas valley they had 10%


----------



## 2dogs

A California inmate firefighter died of a heart attack today on a training exercise. Sad.

wildfiretoday.com has a short video showing eastern fire fighting using "brush busters", surplus military trucks converted to wildland fire fighting. There is some great chainsaw work being done and some cool footage of a brush buster burning. Oh and some footage of fat firefighters wearing bunker gear on a wildland fire. Those eastern boys seem unable to walk very far.


----------



## BeatCJ

Really young, too, only 36. I hope he felt some redemption with his work as a firefighter. I work with inmate Fire crews quite a bit, they are the only inmates I have ever heard own up to the fact they are there because of their mistakes. Most prisons are full of "innocent" people, except for Fire crews.


----------



## slowp

I think I saw a slopping back cut stump in the fire lane.


----------



## 2dogs

Thanks Patty.


----------



## BeatCJ

Here's another YouTube video, NIFC Predictive Services 2015 Fire Season Outlook:


----------



## Metals406

BeatCJ said:


> Here's another YouTube video, NIFC Predictive Services 2015 Fire Season Outlook:



She didn't get the late season snowpack she was hoping for.


----------



## BeatCJ

Well, you know... There's always next week. Yeah, probably not. We're supposed to be pushing record highs tomorrow, then clear for most of a week with a transition to cooler and wet near the next weekend. Looking at the CPC 6-10 Day and 8-14 Day forecasts, they see wet in their crystal ball. But they also call for warmer than normal. Warm and wet may wash away all the snowpack gains we have made over the last two weeks...


----------



## 2dogs

Water is discussed nearly every day in the fish wrapper. Illegal grows apparently are large consumers of water and we have tons of those.


----------



## BeatCJ

Ha! Soon to be legalized, then they will use even more water!


----------



## BeatCJ

Another Wildfire Today article about California Drought...

California Drought Worsens


----------



## 2dogs

I was going to link to that article but the thirst and having to cross the sand dunes in my backyard got to me. Fortunately a rescue camel found me in time and sold me a bottle of imported water.


----------



## BeatCJ

Thank You for your support. It's a great new industry for the our wild camel herd.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> I was going to link to that article but the thirst and having to cross the sand dunes in my backyard got to me. Fortunately a rescue camel found me in time and sold me a bottle of imported water.



We're in Texas today. Texas is greener than most parts of California. There's something just _wrong_ about that.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Gologit said:


> We're in Texas today. Texas is greener than most parts of California. There's something just _wrong_ about that.


Got any pics Bob?


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> We're in Texas today. Texas is greener than most parts of California. There's something just _wrong_ about that.


Gonna visit Jameson?


----------



## Gologit

Metals406 said:


> Gonna visit Jameson?



Nope. Darn it. He's living and working in another part of the state. It was his turn to buy breakfast, too.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Nope. Darn it. He's living and working in another part of the state. It was his turn to buy breakfast, too.


Just eat at a fancy place and mail him the bill.


----------



## Gologit

Metals406 said:


> Just eat at a fancy place and mail him the bill.


 LOLOL....I like the way you think.


----------



## slowp

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/


----------



## BeatCJ

Ooops: Logging Helicopter Crash starts wildfire

Pilot is in the hospital in stable condition.


----------



## northmanlogging

helicopter just flew over the house with a water bucket... I haven't been welding in a few weeks...


----------



## madhatte

There's nothing on Inciweb, but that's not surprising this early in the season.


----------



## northmanlogging

Some folks are burning a bunch of slash just outside of town, looks like its gotten out of control a couple of times... they've been at it for months now. I'm hopping that is all. As I've mentioned before I'm pretty much surrounded by hemlocks that need a thinning, and FS land that has long gone past the point of sanity...


----------



## Gypo Logger

A burning mattress was found in the bush today. The FD extinguished it. I guess someone was smoking in bed.


----------



## 2dogs

Wildfiretoday.com has a small article of fuels reduction. Worth a look if you are a contractor.

There is also an article of a dude who started 2 fires near his grow in Cali. The judge sentenced him to prison and fined him $6.5 million dollars (suppression costs). Prison pays better than I thought.


----------



## 2dogs

A Federal firefighter suffered second and third degrees burns during a chainsaw refueling accident this past Monday. He ws working a fire near Las Vegas.


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> A Federal firefighter suffered second and third degrees burns during a chainsaw refueling accident this past Monday. He ws working a fire near Las Vegas.


That's sucky. :0(


----------



## forestryworks

Gologit said:


> We're in Texas today. Texas is greener than most parts of California. There's something just _wrong_ about that.





Metals406 said:


> Gonna visit Jameson?





Gologit said:


> Nope. Darn it. He's living and working in another part of the state. It was his turn to buy breakfast, too.





Metals406 said:


> Just eat at a fancy place and mail him the bill.





Gologit said:


> LOLOL....I like the way you think.



By god, I'll pay that bill and return to sender with a bill paid charge!


----------



## Metals406

forestryworks said:


> By god, I'll pay that bill and return to sender with a bill paid charge!
> [emoji23]


Holy hell! There ya are! Me and Cody figured you drowned with all that rain in TX.


----------



## 2dogs

Hey Jameson. Stayin dry?


----------



## forestryworks

Metals406 said:


> Holy hell! There ya are! Me and Cody figured you drowned with all that rain in TX.





2dogs said:


> Hey Jameson. Stayin dry?



Nice to be in the high desert this time of year - high and dry. We sure had a wet winter though.


----------



## Gologit

forestryworks said:


> By god, I'll pay that bill and return to sender with a bill paid charge!


 

Sounds fair to me.


----------



## madhatte

We had a good-ish one yesterday. Structure guys got it the night before with their "surround-and-drown" tactics and were surprised the next morning when the fog lifted and the fire woke back up. I ordered up a dozer and got it contained and watched it for an hour or so until the RH bottomed out, then went home. Easy money.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> We had a good-ish one yesterday. Structure guys got it the night before with their "surround-and-drown" tactics and were surprised the next morning when the fog lifted and the fire woke back up. I ordered up a dozer and got it contained and watched it for an hour or so until the RH bottomed out, then went home. Easy money.


 You guys use air tankers much?


----------



## BeatCJ

Very rare on the west side. All of the DNR helicopters are based east side (Ellensburg, I think), no bases Westside. I think there a couple of SEATS over east, and Oregon has them in Redmond.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> We had a good-ish one yesterday. Structure guys got it the night before with their "surround-and-drown" tactics and were surprised the next morning when the fog lifted and the fire woke back up. I ordered up a dozer and got it contained and watched it for an hour or so until the RH bottomed out, then went home. Easy money.


That's why it's called "Hose & Doze". . . Not "Hose & Go". ;0)


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> You guys use air tankers much?



We get rotors once in awhile, when the army offers them, but we don't really have a practical way to order them. You have no idea how frustrating it is to see them flying buckets around for training and know they're not coming to your fire. They are also not particularly good at observing the rules for where to dip. Sometimes it's best not to ask questions you don't want the answers to.


----------



## BeatCJ

Ouch. Too bad, I've seen the military Blackhawks and Chinooks do some really good work.

Wildfire Today showed that Predictive Services has release the newest outlook. They are now calling for conditions in NE Washington to rise to above normal in June, and the entire PNW in July. 

Monthly Outlook


----------



## Metals406

I'm pretty close to NE Warshington -- the contractor I work for is outta Twisp.

All the fire maps I've seen for this year so far -- show red for most if Oregon, Nor Cal, WA, ID, and parts of MT.

I want a good season, but would prefer to keep the urban-interface down to nill. I hate watching folks lose property!


----------



## BeatCJ

I suspect it will be a rare year we don't have some interface involvement any more.


----------



## Metals406

BeatCJ said:


> I suspect it will be a rare year we don't have some interface involvement any more.


Agreed


----------



## _RJ_

You guys be safe this season. I have a couple friends who are smokejumpers. And I'd hate to see any of you get hurt.


----------



## madhatte

Well, our crew started trickling in this week. Of 6, 3 are red-carded already. This is promising. We might have a full crew by the time August is here.


----------



## northmanlogging

Gologit said:


> You guys use air tankers much?



Not 100% positive on this but the local Search and Rescue/ sheriffs copter is outfitted for buckets, they are the guys I saw flying one around the other day.

Otherwise... last time I seen a fire bomber on this side was the gold hill fire. that was the early 90's some twin prop b-17 c 130 ancient looking death traps... doing stuff fighter jockeys would get queezy over, recess had a whole new meaning.


----------



## Gologit

northmanlogging said:


> Not 100% positive on this but the local Search and Rescue/ sheriffs copter is outfitted for buckets, they are the guys I saw flying one around the other day.
> 
> Otherwise... last time I seen a fire bomber on this side was the gold hill fire. that was the early 90's some twin prop b-17 c 130 ancient looking death traps... doing stuff fighter jockeys would get queezy over, recess had a whole new meaning.



LOL...free airshows. They don't use B-17s on fires any more and after two wing failure incidents the private contractor C-130s are being phased out too. The military is still using C-130s in the MAFFS program but...hopefully...their inspection procedures for things like wing spar stress cracks have improved.


----------



## _RJ_

Last year there was a fire near the spot I was hunting. All the planes and helos flying low had the critters confused. I arrowed a bunch of coyotes and a bear that were watching the aircraft above.


----------



## northmanlogging

The "air port" in Darrington is brutal short, and bordered on one end by a cemetery the other by power lines that may or may not be too close/tall for comfort, no tower to speak of... 

Having them fire bombers parked there for a few weeks made the whole town look like some kind of international airport diorama...


----------



## slowp

They have a set up at the airport above East Wenatchee for air tankers and also will fly out of the Omak airport. I worked as a parking attendent for the planes in Winslow, AZ. We were redundant. There were lines painted for the pilots to follow and they mostly paid attention to them. I got sunburned lips but fire camp was a nice motel room instead of a tent, and no night shifts. 

We did have a low speed chase (cue Yakkity Sax) when a guy in a motorized wheelchair came into the danger zone. (More Yakkity Sax) and we watched a guy spend hours assembling his parachute with fan flying machine only to crash on take off. It was like the tricycle tip over on Laugh In.


----------



## BeatCJ

They also fly the larger planes out of Moses Hole, WA, Redmond, OR and Trout Lake, OR. They had them on two fires on the westside in the General Portland area last year, Scoggins Creek and 36 Pit. I won't be surprised if we see them on the Olympic Peninsula this season, or really, anywhere on the westside.

Other than the P2 Korean War vintage plans, most of the large air tanker fleet is more current. The USFS has 7 retired USCG C-130H planes they will place in service over the next couple of years, two should be ready with MAFFS slide in units this season. The rest need wing box replacements, the USAF is managing that for the Forest Service. One of the private contractors has a C-130J in service, and is building up a second. The remaining private large air tankers are older passenger jets, BAe-146 and RJ-85s, MD-87s and 3 DC-10s. We used to have 44 privately operated air tankers available, right now the USFS has 15 on contract.


----------



## BeatCJ

The NWCC 7 Day Significant Fir Potential Outlook is showing it's first "Brown" day of the season next Wednesday, for the mid to upper Columbia River Basin. The forecaster says much of the eastside may be affected by the weather and in nearly the same condition.
7 Day Outlook


----------



## madhatte

88 over the weekend?!? I'm gonna be busy, I think.


----------



## BeatCJ

Yup. Nomex pants and Red Button boots to the office this weekend. They are calling for 90's over the weekend in the Portland Heat Island.


----------



## _RJ_

I bet 4th of July is crazy busy huh?


----------



## BeatCJ

It depends on where you are. The Vancouver metro get's crazy, it's an all hands on deck kind of thing. Out in the rural areas it's less so. Gotta say, with it being a weekend this year, and the way the fine fuel moistures are expected to be, I am concerned. I won't be taking a day off, that's for sure. Most holidays I get on a different day, anyway.

I am one of the few fire administrators I know that don't profess to hate the day, though.


----------



## Metals406

We're supposed to get the same temps as y'all, which will probably come close to recordbreaking for this time of year.


----------



## madhatte

I almost feel like I should get back into the habit of bringing my radio home over the weekends. That way I have a bit of a heads-up if I'm gonna get the call.


----------



## BeatCJ

Should? I carry 3 radios pretty much all the time. My daily use 800 radio, a VHF Kenwood and a BK. I also have a spare BK and an extension mag mount antenna in my briefcase. Turn one on at 5:30, turn it off when I go to bed. I consider it a vacation day to leave them off...

My wife has come to loath the sound of static crackling, but she gets to leave hers at work...


----------



## slowp

It is quite humid today. Almost Mideast like.


----------



## Gologit

Highs in the 60s, wind NW at 10, RH 60%, sunshine. Sorry folks, just had to say that.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Highs in the 60s, wind NW at 10, RH 60%, sunshine. Sorry folks, just had to say that.


Braggart! ;0)


----------



## slowp

Tomatoes.


----------



## Gologit

Five dollar tomatoes?


----------



## slowp

With this early hot weather, and 3 blooms on two plants already, maybe one dollar tomatoes. I also just put in some onions. The weather forecast sounds good for east sidish plantings.


----------



## 2dogs

I can't say it rained today but it was misting heavily enough around noon that I had to stop spray painting a tool in the driveway.


----------



## Metals406

Growing season is jacked here this year. We got grass seeding out already, vegetables seeding out. Waaay early for any of that. That also means we'll probably brown-out early too.


----------



## BeatCJ

Yup. We have been eating lettuce, kale and a few pea pods for almost a month. Several farmers have put hay in already, and it's usually after the 4th for a lot of people.


----------



## _RJ_

We've already finished one cutting. Garden is plumb stuffed with berries. Even our cherry trees are ripe.


----------



## Gologit

Another argument for keeping the tankers private? The contractors already have the experience and the people. The FS seems to be running as hard as they can and losing ground with every step.

http://fireaviation.com/2015/06/08/we-dont-know-what-we-dont-know-2/


----------



## BeatCJ

I can see both sides of the argument. It's a huge investment to purchase the planes, and there isn't much off season work for a purpose built air tanker. I think a combination of a government owned contractor operated model and longer term private contracts makes the most sense to me. I think that it would make a lot of sense for a military agency to help the USFS set up the program.

Maybe they need to study it some more...


----------



## Metals406

I firmly believe in the private sector in comparison to government employment.

It's been proven over and over again, that businesses have to do everything as close to right as possible to retain its customer base.

Unions and government employees, at every level, are usually overpaid for their level of knowledge, promoted through paperwork instead of skill, not held to the same fail/succeed standards, etc.

As just one example, a local government employed biologist destroyed an entire ecosystem of salmon. The salmon runs were epic! We had one of the world's largest gatherings of bald eagles during spawning.

After single handedly wiping out the salmon, he faced no judgment, no punishment, no fines or backlash. A simple 'oops', & business as usual. I guarantee a contracted biologist would have been fired, fined, & probably jailed.

There's also many reasons defense and tech are sub'd primarily to the private sector.


----------



## BeatCJ

I was at a retired firefighter's house yesterday. Our countywide burn ban has been moved up to July 1st. He had a small pile, burning limbs from having several doug-firs cut in his front yard. He was trimming the limbs, and feeding his pile. The wind switched on him, an ember jumped into his red slash, and all of a sudden it was a 1/4 of an acre. He was a tad shaken. At the same time, DNR was dealing with a 10 acre fire in red slash down near the Columbia, had a helicopter on a west side fire in early June.


----------



## 2dogs

BeatCJ said:


> I was at a retired firefighter's house yesterday. Our countywide burn ban has been moved up to July 1st. He had a small pile, burning limbs from having several doug-firs cut in his front yard. He was trimming the limbs, and feeding his pile. The wind switched on him, an ember jumped into his red slash, and all of a sudden it was a 1/4 of an acre. He was a tad shaken. At the same time, DNR was dealing with a 10 acre fire in red slash down near the Columbia, had a helicopter on a west side fire in early June.


 What is red slash? Our burn ban went into effect in April.


----------



## _RJ_

We're still at IPL Industrial Precaution Level 1. 

-I. Closed Season 
Fire season requirements are in effect. In addition to other fire prevention measures, a Fire Watch is required at this and all higher levels unless otherwise waived. -


----------



## BeatCJ

When the doug-fir needles are still on the limbs, but have dried and turned bright red. It's a local term, I guess.

Added Edit: I did some looking around, there are a few references. In this BLM Fuel Model publication HERE , they equate the behavior as similar to Fuel Type 4, Shrubs including chaparral.


----------



## BeatCJ

Had our first State Mobe of the year for the Cold Springs fire, up near where the Carlton Complex burned last year. Omak Chronicle Article
Google Maps link
I'm not sure the pointer is correct. Listed as 800 acres the last I saw. Had Red Flag warnings expire Friday.


----------



## Metals406

Too early!


----------



## Joe46

Just spent a couple of weeks in western Montana, and some time in Glacier NP. I'll try not to make this a political rant. When it burns this summer, and I have no doubt that it will, it will be bad. I understand the premise behind our national parks and keeping them "natural". But I have to wonder about people that travel from around the country or spends thousands of dollars coming from overseas to see our parks. I really have to wonder if they're going to enjoy seeing miles of burned dead snags. There is just so much cleanup that could been done and still retain the natural beauty of what visitors see, but of course it won't happen.


----------



## madhatte

4 calls on the Fort yesterday. 1 was about 100 acres. Heating up pretty quickly.


----------



## Metals406

Joe46 said:


> Just spent a couple of weeks in western Montana, and some time in Glacier NP. I'll try not to make this a political rant. When it burns this summer, and I have no doubt that it will, it will be bad. I understand the premise behind our national parks and keeping them "natural". But I have to wonder about people that travel from around the country or spends thousands of dollars coming from overseas to see our parks. I really have to wonder if they're going to enjoy seeing miles of burned dead snags. There is just so much cleanup that could been done and still retain the natural beauty of what visitors see, but of course it won't happen.


I'm in Kalispell, & you're right.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk


----------



## BeatCJ

madhatte said:


> 4 calls on the Fort yesterday. 1 was about 100 acres. Heating up pretty quickly.


They have had several 100 acre fire in the northeast region, too. The 1000 hour fuels are at late July dryness already. When our grasses and live fuels stop growing and dry out things will be on. We are forecast for drizzle this morning, then no more moisture for as far as they an see. Calling for temps near triple digit next week. Guess when the fireworks stands open? I think I may have a Type 5/6 parked at my house next weekend...


----------



## Metals406

Small fires are in the increase, supposed to be over 100* here this week!


----------



## atpchas

Some interesting views (from space) of the San Bernardino Nat'l Forest fire:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86092


----------



## Gologit

http://yubanet.com/2015CA/Washington.php

The weather forecast is calling for 100 degree temps with possibility of dry lightning.


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> http://yubanet.com/2015CA/Washington.php
> 
> The weather forecast is calling for 100 degree temps with possibility of dry lightning.


Yup, get'n dry-dry here too.

They're asking people not to light fireworks this year. That's not gonna happen, 'people' are dumb and selfish.


----------



## madhatte

Well, at least I'm getting plenty of OT.


----------



## BeatCJ

I just got back from a small pile burn. We banned all debris burning as of Tuesday Morning. The Elected Commissioner of Public Lands announced that burning on all state lands was moved up to Monday, instead of the scheduled July first. Evidently some of the staff got a heads up on Friday, but as far as I know, he made no effort to communicate with local agencies. I'm irritated. I asked on June 1st if DNR was going to consider moving their ban up due to the forecast conditions. None of their staff had heard anything. So I led an effort locally to move our ban up from July 15th to match the scheduled Statewide July 1st DNR date. Usually, in Wetter Washington a ban isn't justified until July 15th, but I understand, DNR is a statewide agency, they want one message. It was easy to justify moving ours to match theirs. Then they moved with no warning. I suspect their is a good reason rank and file DNR employees don't like the Elected Commissioner of Public Lands.

Anyway, back to my pile fire... I was at this location a while ago for a smoke complaint. The landowner was having trouble getting his logging slash piles to go because they were too wet. Fast forward, I keep my eye on the situation because it appears to have all the hallmarks of a neighborhood war. The landowner bent over backward to keep the peace, no problems. He stopped burning a few weeks ago, because of hie personal concerns over how dry things were getting. This morning, as he wanders around looking out over his property, he noticed some smoke in the slash. one of the burned down piles has taken back off. It didn't go anywhere, but by the time we got there, sized it up, found access, around noonish, it's starting to consume the green/tan weeds. I passed the fire off to DNR to mop up, it was a legal burn, so there is no penalty. That's why they collect Forest Patrol taxes, he paid for a logging and burn permit. I would guess they had to dig down a couple of feet to get to all of the heat. In a normal year, I would guess we wouldn't have been able to drive our truck out there, there were tufts of wetland grasses. No issue with our F-550 today, though.


----------



## 2dogs

There is an interesting blurb in wildfiretoday.com telling of ff's finding four places within the Happy Camp Complex from last year that are still burning.
http://wildfiretoday.com/


----------



## madhatte

That's nuts!


----------



## BeatCJ

2dogs said:


> There is an interesting blurb in wildfiretoday.com telling of ff's finding four places within the Happy Camp Complex from last year that are still burning.
> http://wildfiretoday.com/


I saw that. I expect any piles that have been burned within the last month are at risk to perk back up over the next few days.


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## Metals406

We had the world's longest and tallest beaver dam at one time here in Kila. 

White settlers came in a TNT'd the chit out of it.

Old timers said it burned summer and winter for ten years, as it snaked through the heart of the dam.

If I recall, it was 40' wide 60' deep, and was as wide as the valley out here.


----------



## Metals406

This image is probably from 7,000 feet up or so, & you can still see remnants of the dam still today. We'll over 100 years later.


----------



## northmanlogging

http://forecast.weather.gov/showsig...arning&lat=48.0298&lon=-121.9184#.VY8_hvlViko

haines level 5-6 with heat lightning moving in towards evening...

its hot and dry like I remember Norcal being... everything is crunchy, and for those that haven't been around here, the underbrush is thick, very thick...


----------



## Metals406

20 acre fire started a couple hours ago north of me.


----------



## northmanlogging

this ***** gonna turn me grey...


----------



## dhskier2

Reported a fire here yesterday, stump burning across the river. Local VFD had it snuffed out in an hour or so


----------



## Haywire

Metals406 said:


> We had the world's longest and tallest beaver dam at one time here in Kila.
> 
> White settlers came in a TNT'd the chit out of it.
> 
> Old timers said it burned summer and winter for ten years, as it snaked through the heart of the dam.
> 
> If I recall, it was 40' wide 60' deep, and was as wide as the valley out here.



Get out!


----------



## Metals406

Haywire said:


> Get out!


Hey stranger! :0)

Get ready to inhale smoke this summer.


----------



## Haywire

Metals406 said:


> Hey stranger! :0)
> 
> Get ready to inhale smoke this summer.



No joke! Saw 105* today


----------



## 2dogs

Today is the two year anniversary of the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain hotshot crew members on the Yarnell fire.


----------



## madhatte

Thank you for the reminder; I need to check in on one of my old seasonals who I haven't heard from in a year or so.


----------



## Joe46

Fires being intentionally set along I 5 north of Seattle. At least 7 reported. Freeway is being closed at times to fight them. They have a description of the car and occupants. They believe they are using road flares to start the fires. If caught they should be publicly flogged!


----------



## Metals406

Joe46 said:


> Fires being intentionally set along I 5 north of Seattle. At least 7 reported. Freeway is being closed at times to fight them. They have a description of the car and occupants. They believe they are using road flares to start the fires. If caught they should be publicly flogged!


What a bunch of asshats!!


----------



## atpchas

Canadian Wildfires Produce River of Smoke:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86151

Views of Shasta Lake, 2005 vs 2014 - be sure to check out the image comparison
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86114


----------



## madhatte

Joe46 said:


> Fires being intentionally set along I 5 north of Seattle. At least 7 reported. Freeway is being closed at times to fight them. They have a description of the car and occupants. They believe they are using road flares to start the fires. If caught they should be publicly flogged!



I hope that they're caught, and prosecuted fully. This is unacceptable behavior.


----------



## northmanlogging

They have a description etc of said asshats...

My day job is right next to the Freeway in this area... unfortunately it didn't burn down... I could use some time off and a new tool box.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Today is the two year anniversary of the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain hotshot crew members on the Yarnell fire.


 Noted. That was a bad deal.


----------



## BeatCJ

Just got back from 2 eastern Washington fires. 6 hours worth of paperwork, and all my bills are ready to send in. My first fire riding around in a pickup, and I have to say, I would rather be on the crew.


----------



## Metals406




----------



## Metals406

A sketchy one from yesterday.

Demobe in the a.m.


----------



## madhatte

You call that sketchy? ... yep, that's sketchy, alright.


----------



## northmanlogging

Little brush fire just out side town this morning, one DNR truck responded and dealt with it, Curious to see how it started as it was in a fairly hard to get to spot, and not really noticeable from any main roads until it got going... and near a park type thing...


----------



## madhatte

I've spent ALL DAY on the phone and radio talking to dispatch, police, structure, public affairs, etc about a fire that we've had contained for weeks but which is nonetheless pouring smoke under the overnight inversion into the valley below and then lifting a fat column visible from the freeway during the day. I have told the same story dozens of times: "it's contained, there are no further actions we can safely take due to UXO hazard, risk of spread is near-zero, smoke is a nuisance but not a hazard". Yesterday was a weird one; had an excavator show up unexpected to bump over burning snags, then we burned out a patch while the dozer cut a line around a spot fire, then we cut hazards and chased spots til dark. Day before? 2 different burnouts. Before that I lose track. Pretty busy season so far. No rest for the wicked, I guess.


----------



## 2dogs

Metals406 said:


> A sketchy one from yesterday.
> 
> Demobe in the a.m.


 You should post this image in the chainsaw thread and ask for advice on the next one. We could use a good laugh.


----------



## madhatte

A few from yesterday:
















Action shot of an excavator bumping over the scary-ass snags that were gonna fall across a latrine. Dude wouldn't stick around to help after these three were down.


----------



## Metals406

Was that a dougy with the burnt catface?

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk


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## madhatte

Yep, all Dougys. These were all within tree-length of a major road.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> Yep, all Dougys. These were all within tree-length of a major road.


This fire was weird, all the Douglas was doing great and most made it through. The Pondy's were burning out like red cedar.


----------



## madhatte

Weird. Both species usually make it if their bark is thick enough. My guess is that your pondys were younger.


----------



## 2dogs

Terrible pics! Your stumpshot wasn't high enough, the face was too deep, your chips were too small so your chain was dull, wrong air filter, and the bar was too long. And for god's sake what oil were you running? That piston looks dry!

Can you tell I've been spending time in the chainsaw forum?


----------



## Haywire

Metals406 said:


>



Where we lookin' at?


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Terrible pics! Your stumpshot wasn't high enough, the face was too deep, your chips were too small so your chain was dull, wrong air filter, and the bar was too long. And for god's sake what oil were you running? That piston looks dry!
> 
> Can you tell I've been spending time in the chainsaw forum?



I'mma go sulk a bit now.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> Weird. Both species usually make it if their bark is thick enough. My guess is that your pondys were younger.


Nope, cat faces were making them vulnerable. There were some oldies.

But it was strange because Pondy's are know for their fire resistance.


----------



## Metals406

Haywire said:


> Where we lookin' at?


Bayview Idaho, Lake Pend Oreille Navy submarine Crane / barge.


----------



## 2dogs

Warshington is burning faster than California.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/20/three-significant-new-fires-in-washington/


----------



## madhatte

Ain't a surprise to me.


----------



## BeatCJ

I've been listening to Colvin Creek on my radio, sounds like they are feeling they made progress. AA did ask for the VLAT but it didn't get filled, so not over yet. Cooler with some humidity the next few days/week will help them out. We had crews helping with another local Fire (Big Creek), think that went to patrol yesterday. Sent a crew to Blue Creek. We are at 16 days billed for our rigs already. If I had more staff available, It could have been higher. And it's still two weeks until August...

I'm not available because of vacation. If I don't take it now, I will run over my allowed hours in September.


----------



## atpchas

Wildfire smoke gets around. The link below has an animated series of images which shows the progression of smoke plumes from July 1 through July 14, 2015, around much of the Northern Hemisphere
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86241


----------



## madhatte

Neat!


----------



## Gologit

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1148


----------



## Metals406

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/st...eparing-possible-evacuation-st-mary/30517355/


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1148


300 firefighters, 10 hand crews, 6 tankers, 4 helicopters, 11dozers...all in 21/2 hours. I guess they aren't fooling around eh?


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> 300 firefighters, 10 hand crews, 6 tankers, 4 helicopters, 11dozers...all in 21/2 hours. I guess they aren't fooling around eh?



Good attack plan. You know what that country is like. When the onshore winds come in through Carquinez Straight and make a hard turn for the valley and foot-hills it might run pretty good tonight.

The evening briefing has it at 1000 acres already. 5% containment.


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> Good attack plan. You know what that country is like. When the onshore winds come in through Carquinez Straight and make a hard turn for the valley and foot-hills it might run pretty good tonight.
> 
> The evening briefing has it at 1000 acres already. 5% containment.



And it that area with those winds up in the valley it's not a matter of might. The weather is actually preferable for fighting it... Outside of the Southwest 20s I'm reading about


----------



## madhatte

I've been on this fire for the last 3 days. It's pretty much wrapped up now. About 80 acres. 

EDIT: also notice that they call it a "brush fire" but show only pics in timber? Yeah, it's not in brush. It's just not on Inciweb, because somehow DOD stuff never is.


----------



## Gologit

This isn't looking good....urban interface, narrow roads, limited ground access, and a propane tank at every home.

http://yubanet.com/2015Local/Lowell.php


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> This isn't looking good....urban interface, narrow roads, limited ground access, and a propane tank at every home.
> 
> http://yubanet.com/2015Local/Lowell.php


There's a ton or urban fires this season so far.


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> This isn't looking good....urban interface, narrow roads, limited ground access, and a propane tank at every home.
> 
> http://yubanet.com/2015Local/Lowell.php



And only 10 dozers on scene... Doesn't make any sense considering the ground they're in


----------



## Gologit

catbuster said:


> And only 10 dozers on scene... Doesn't make any sense considering the ground they're in


 You've been there? You've been on that ground? You've dealt with the logistics of moving dozers in that area...the access roads, the distance and time for travel, the availability?

It doesn't make sense to you? That figures. Just sit down and read and listen and maybe...just maybe...you'll learn something. Or then again, maybe not.


----------



## Gypo Logger

catbuster said:


> And only 10 dozers on scene... Doesn't make any sense considering the ground they're in


It's funny how they call them brush fires when a few million board feet turn to charcoal. Loggers can't seem to put a dent in the resource compared to natural forces.
Have a drink on me.


----------



## Bwildered

Gypo Logger said:


> It's funny how they call them brush fires when a few million board feet turn to charcoal. Loggers can't seem to put a dent in the resource compared to natural forces.
> Have a drink on me.View attachment 437853


That looks like some 30 yr old crappy diesel I siphoned out of an old drum, I hope it works & tastes better.
Thansk


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> You've been there? You've been on that ground? You've dealt with the logistics of moving dozers in that area...the access roads, the distance and time for travel, the availability?
> 
> It doesn't make sense to you? That figures. Just sit down and read and listen and maybe...just maybe...you'll learn something. Or then again, maybe not.



Well... As for being in that area? Yes. Logistics of moving dozers? Yeah. I think it's safe to say I have a pretty good grasp on it. I would be out of business without knowing how to move heavy gear.

The only thing I can't tell you is the current availability of CALFIRE's resources. I haven't been out west this year, but it appears to have been an active fire season. But what I can say for sure is that a large dozer with an angle blade is the fastest way to knock in a line. A lack of access for a lowboy trailer to get in is no reason to not at least get as much heavy iron that will do the job the fastest of all possible means at least on scene and starting to work. 

You and I have differing opinions on this. I get it. And sure, I'm younger than you and might have less experience fighting wildland fire. But man, I can say I've been there and done that. And if I don't know something, I'll ask or won't comment. Just don't roast me because I don't agree with you.


----------



## Gologit

catbuster said:


> Well... As for being in that area? Yes. Logistics of moving dozers? Yeah. I think it's safe to say I have a pretty good grasp on it. I would be out of business without knowing how to move heavy gear.
> 
> The only thing I can't tell you is the current availability of CALFIRE's resources. I haven't been out west this year, but it appears to have been an active fire season. But what I can say for sure is that a large dozer with an angle blade is the fastest way to knock in a line. A lack of access for a lowboy trailer to get in is no reason to not at least get as much heavy iron that will do the job the fastest of all possible means at least on scene and starting to work.
> 
> You and I have differing opinions on this. I get it. And sure, I'm younger than you and might have less experience fighting wildland fire. But man, I can say I've been there and done that. And if I don't know something, I'll ask or won't comment. Just don't roast me because I don't agree with you.



They're getting as much equipment to the fire as they can...air and ground resources both. It's easy to stand back and be critical if you don't really know what's going on. Easy, but not right. 
You can spout off all the generalities you want...until you've actually been there you don't really know.

Cutting line at night in that kind of terrain takes somebody who knows what they're doing. Any fool can run a dozer but not just anybody can get up there and do a good job safely.

Give the people making the decisions the benefit of the doubt, okay?


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> They're getting as much equipment to the fire as they can...air and ground resources both. It's easy to stand back and be critical if you don't really know what's going on. Easy, but not right.
> You can spout off all the generalities you want...until you've actually been there you don't really know.
> 
> Cutting line at night in that kind of terrain takes somebody who knows what they're doing. Any fool can run a dozer but not just anybody can get up there and do a good job safely.
> 
> Give the people making the decisions the benefit of the doubt, okay?



Do you even grasp how dozers are operated on wildland fires, Bob? Have you ever worked a fire? You're talking down to me like I haven't. The agencies who operate the machines won't just let any fool on a machine.

1: You have to take (and pass) a Dozer Ops class. There are written and practical tests. And my practical was on some gnarly terrain, so... In order to be an operator you have to be a pretty good one. In California, CALFIRE requires you have a Class A CDL to even take the DOZOP class. 

2: They have to work in a two-man team, an operator and a dozer boss. The dozer boss acts as your spotter and support crew. It usually works as an operator who drives the lowboy and runs the machine, and the boss drives a service/fuel truck.

3: Doing a good job safely isn't that hard cutting line. You show up, drop the blade and cut down to subsoil. Sure you have to account for terrain, but any dozer operator on a fire has to be able to do that. If they can't, well, they won't be found on a fire. If you get into a tough spot you have your dozer boss as a backstop.

Now, I think I'm going to take WC90's advice, and enjoy a cold Sam Adams on my day off, a long, long way away from the Left Coast in Boston.


----------



## Gologit

catbuster said:


> Do you even grasp how dozers are operated on wildland fires, Bob? Have you ever worked a fire?



Yup. I've run dozer on fires. It's not my favorite thing to do and I'm glad I'm retired but I've been carded ever since it became a requirement.
Do you think that maybe the way you guys do things back there might be just a little different from the way we work out here? Do you guys cut line at night on steep ground?
I wouldn't criticize the way somebody did something unless I was familiar enough with the terrain, the weather, the logistics, and the leadership to make a truly informed statement. You're not. That's nothing against you personally, it's just the way it is You're not here with your boots on the ground so you have no call to find fault. If questions arise about the way things are done there will be plenty of qualified people with plenty of time to ask those questions...and they'll get answers too.
I don't know what your part of the country is like but I doubt I'd be second guessing the decisions your fire people make. Watching videos, memorizing requirements and reading books wouldn't work either . There's just no substitute for being there.
If you want to know something about how we work out here just ask. But don't go running your mouth and being critical because we didn't have enough dozers on a job early enough to suit you. That just highlights your inexperience in this particular area. You need to be learning.
Best of luck to you.


----------



## madhatte

I'll say this: I've bossed dozers on a few fires, and it is absolutely not something that just any operator can do, nor is it something that just anybody can boss. A good team is a rare treat.


----------



## aikensjc

Does anyone work with or around the waldo canyon fire area? I'm looking for experience in felling trees


----------



## madhatte

There's plenty of experience on this board. What are you asking about, specifically?


----------



## NWCoaster

Eccentric said:


> Wow. You're really showing your ignorance and arrogance this time Shane...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_liquid_expanding_vapor_explosion



We Industrial Firefighters like to use the BLEVE acronym as meaning " Blast Leveling Everything Very Effectively"


----------



## Gypo Logger

No, this wood is much bigger! In the pic it was a jammy place to be. I tried really hard not hurt the black currants as I need to make more wine out of them to help me get thru the winter, which is gonna be a long and cold one. Lol


----------



## 2dogs

Well WC90 is on my ignore list but it appears he says a propane tank in a wildland fire doesn't present a problem. Sorry buddy you are DEAD wrong. As someone else pointed out a propane tank can overheat to a point where the pressure relief valve can no longer function to bleed product and cool the tank. When a tank fails and explodes and the product ignites it is called a BLEVE. It is very exciting. There is a great video on youtube showing a fire in a gas plant in Korea where several BLEVES take place. It is a long video so only someone who understands the subject will watch the entire thing but there is a HUGE BLEVE about 10 minutes in that any firefighter can see coming. Sorry WC90 there no cartoon animals or gay **** so I know you won't watch it.


----------



## 2dogs

Catbuster I don't know which dozers Cal Fire is buying now (I think John Deere but I don't know the model) but at least for the last few years they were NOT buying angle dozers, only straight blades. They said it was to reduce cost. Sorta like BLM buying bareback dozers until they found out they couldn't back up hill.

This is a new angle dozer. Can you tell the model?
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/16...00-acres-northwest-of-placerville-california/


----------



## 2dogs

B TW I'm back from the Sierras. Only had one run in with a bear. I probably have to head down to Big Sur on Thursday.


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> Catbuster I don't know which dozers Cal Fire is buying now (I think John Deere but I don't know the model) but at least for the last few years they were NOT buying angle dozers, only straight blades. They said it was to reduce cost. Sorta like BLM buying bareback dozers until they found out they couldn't back up hill.
> 
> This is a new angle dozer. Can you tell the model?
> http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/16...00-acres-northwest-of-placerville-california/




That's a Deere 750. J model. Deere makes an OK machine, but Cat is king of the dozer market. Komatsu is my second pick, and after that I won't buy the machine. When I think wildland fires I think of a Cat D7 or D8, either N or R model. I run one on a daily basis, but they're oversize loads and aren't very nimble like a smaller machine such as that 750. 

That dozer has a 6-way Power-Angle-Tilt blade. They're nice in construction, but are kind of meh for any rough work, too many hoses to snag and joints to break. An angle blade is like you see on an LA County D8. A true angle blade mounts on a U shaped frame and pins back into mounting holes on the frame. You only have sideways tilt, to throw material off to one side. 







Granted, there aren't a lot of machines that actually work fires like those. But, they're a whole lot more powerful and do more work in less time. They also cost twice as much as a 750 Deere to purchase, burn a lot more fuel and are almost prohibitively expensive to maintain. With that said, I tested out on a D8N, and I have large dozers (Cat D8Rs), so I'm biased towards them. But even a small dozer can pretty often replace a hand crew.


----------



## 2dogs

Thanks CatB. Have you checked out the CalDOG site? Lots of good links and of course some cool pics.

Most dozers in my area are D6s both agency and contractor. I rarely see anything else but Caterpillar.


----------



## madhatte

Note to all, including self: I just cleaned up a bunch of unruly discussion. I left dissenting opinions, because disagreement is OK so long as it's constructive and respectful, but deleted a whole bunch of extraneous nonsense including personal attacks. No timeouts this time around. Let's get back to the business of discussing fire, shall we?


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> Thanks CatB. Have you checked out the CalDOG site? Lots of good links and of course some cool pics.
> 
> Most dozers in my area are D6s both agency and contractor. I rarely see anything else but Caterpillar.



I was a member of CALDOG before I became primarily a faller. They're a great resource of you want to get into dozer ops. 

I've run some D6Rs. They're a nice blend of nimbleness and power. The new small dozers are all hydrostatic drive and are controlled by a left hand joystick. It's a lot easier than when all dozers were direct drive power shuttles you steered with foot pedals haha. The D8Rs are fun to drive, with the twist to select gears and then push/pull to steer horizontal bar. The large machines are still in the realm of the skilled cat skinner, though. 

As active as this season has been I'm surprised I haven't gotten a call to head out the west coast yet this year, either as a dozer operator, dozer boss, engine boss or faller.


----------



## Metals406

We had a 7, & two 6's on the last fire. Father and son ran the 7 & one 6 -- another fella ran the last 6.

Div wanted a vertical cat line straight off a road to tie in a hose lay. The old man bombed off on the 7 & took a good chunk of road with him -- and still slid 3 cat lengths. He then got stuck behind a Larch, finally bulled it over, got stuck on it, & was able to slide off without rolling.

Huge. . . Balls!

There's not enough money printed by the Federal Reserve to get me to do what them guys were doing.


----------



## Eccentric

Restoring the video and link that I posted early yesterday....





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_liquid_expanding_vapor_explosion


----------



## tramp bushler

Hi Everyone ! 
Well , I gotta publicly eat humble pie here. 
This summer was my first time on a fire. . Runnong a D5H Grapple dozer on the Tetlin Hills fire in Tok . 
Being a professional timber faller and tower "and ground machine" logger . I have always kindof Gnashed my teeth at govt forestry personell. Especially Hot shot , jumpers and line crews that wanted to Splain to me how to fall a tree. . I will say , that of the dozens of guys I saw running a power saw on this fire . I wouldnt of hired a single one of them . Well ok there were 2 that showed promise. but . I just couldnt watch any of them. . Ok so ya may be wondering about my humble pie eating . . What I did learn is , Those same guys KNEW !! how to keep me alive and safe !!!!! Yall understand the forest in a way I had never experienced. . Had to go hide in The Black and or make tracks to a Safety Zone several times . 
My dozer bosses would look at the sky and explain to me what was going to happen . . Sometimes they would make me stop pushing and turn around and track back up out of the green when pushing inderict line .


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## tramp bushler

Or direct line if it wasnt good hard black that I was going direct along. Their use of air support while going direct or corraling slop andspot. was very comforting and Impressive !!!!


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## tramp bushler

So , I told them that I had gained a whole new level of Respect for them . Which I think was timely and appreciated . Pushing line through black spruce green that grew on permafrost is a slippery adventure. as the mineral soil is just hard frozen black muck. And mixed white spruce/ birch /poplar timber often was growing on flat sided boulders. Was an adventure in getting beat up in the cab . The 5 wasnt as good at steep ground as the 6 that was also on the fire but with the grapple it was very valueable for several thongs. . 
So I now have a new appreciation for what you guys do . Thanks !!! 
Glen


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## Metals406

Glen!! Long time no see pard! :0)


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## tramp bushler

yup; I got a small brain and I needed to learn a bunch of new stuff. When this site crashed I got frustrated with it and went out with the tide. Had some time tday t work on a saw and couldnt post up anything without saying Hi and giving an update. How ya been ? Whatchya up 2 this summer ?


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## 1270d

There are not too many forest fires in my part of the country, but five or six year ago one burned right over my folks house and our equipment shop. It is in a hardwood stand and horse pasture so the place escaped real damage unlike the homes downhill in the pine flats.

After we knew the fire had passed our place, my father and I sat on his deck in the dark watching the burn. We heard at least half a dozen propane tanks explode. The big house size ones. Very impressive concussion. 
Definitely no slow leaking off of gas. Wouldn't want to be within a hundred yards of one of those I would think.


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## Metals406

tramp bushler said:


> yup; I got a small brain and I needed to learn a bunch of new stuff. When this site crashed I got frustrated with it and went out with the tide. Had some time tday t work on a saw and couldnt post up anything without saying Hi and giving an update. How ya been ? Whatchya up 2 this summer ?


Been on one fire so far this season in Idaho. Wait'n to get called to another before snow flies.

Glad to hear you're still among the upright.


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## tramp bushler

Code:


[URL=http://s1087.photobucket.com/user/gumboot4581/media/photobucket-
295566-1438130729102.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j464/gumboot4581/photobucket-295566-1438130729102.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


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## tramp bushler




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## tramp bushler

hey , it worked.


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## tramp bushler




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## tramp bushler

pulling apart a pile and scattering it. I used it as sub grade for a parking area


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## tramp bushler




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## tramp bushler




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## Alex D

Hey Glen! How are things on your end? Fell any big timber lately?

I was actually using that husky 394, she's a real strong runner, you sold me a couple of years these past few days in some decent sized white pine...


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## warejn

Wow, Grapple Glen! It's HEQB Ware from Tetlin Hills. It's a small world sometimes. I left on the 23 and they were working on a rehab plan for that mess.


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## tramp bushler

wow !! Jacob; !!! Un believable !! When you said you like saws and Falling . I Never thot u would b on AS . . Totally AWESOME !!


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## tramp bushler

Did you and Dozer Boss Sam leave on the same day ?


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## tramp bushler

Im sorry my fon memory was full as I would have liked to get alot more pics. Especially of guys that were lots of fun to work around. . Now, u gotta remember that I never saw u do any cutting , so my comments arent about u !!


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## tramp bushler

Alex D said:


> Hey Glen!
> How are things on your end? Fell any big timber lately?
> 
> I was actually using that husky 394, she's a real strong runner, you sold me a couple of years these past few days in some decent sized white pine...





Alex D said:


> Hey Glen! How are things on your end? Fell any big timber lately?
> 
> I was actually using that husky 394, she's a real strong runner, you sold me a couple of years these past few days in some decent sized white pine...



Alex ; I was thinking about you the other day, and wondered if that saw was still running. . Thats great. It made me good money, Sounds like its doing the same for you. . !!


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## madhatte

As short staffed as we are each year, we straight up couldn't fight fires where I work without dozers. Dozers are great.


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## madhatte

A few from last week's fire:
































This thing kept us busy for 4 days and still needs monitoring.


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## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> A few from last week's fire:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thing kept us busy for 4 days and still needs monitoring.



Are you hiring hobbits to do your falling?


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## madhatte

My feets be hairy-ish, yes, why do you ask?


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## tramp bushler

Falling , on a fire is different than production falling . It has to be . When I production fall , I work for 6-7 hours. By and large , non stop saw in the cut , about as fast as I can go . . Big difference in 6-7 hour days and only being concerned with cutting timber . And 16 hour days where your primary goal is to not get cooked like a sausage on a camp fire.


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## BeatCJ

tramp bushler said:


> Hi Everyone !
> Well , I gotta publicly eat humble pie here.
> ... I will say , that of the dozens of guys I saw running a power saw on this fire . I wouldnt of hired a single one of them . Well ok there were 2 that showed promise. but . I just couldnt watch any of them. . Ok so ya may be wondering about my humble pie eating . . What I did learn is , Those same guys KNEW !! how to keep me alive and safe !!!!! Yall understand the forest in a way I had never experienced. . Had to go hide in The Black and or make tracks to a Safety Zone several times .


I wouldn't worry about it. Many (most) hand crew sawyers couldn't cut it as a faller. I have a few buddies that have been on crews, and they always say the definition of sawyer is someone that doesn't like to dig. But all of the professional firefighters should be good at the fire behavior thing. I always enjoy working with contract fallers, never failed to learn something.


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## tramp bushler

Its interesting to see pics and vids of fires at night / after dark. It does get dark for a couple hours now . But the rainy part of summer is happening now. in most of Alaska. So the fires are deminished . As a general rule, during our peak fire danger , it dont get dark.


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## catbuster

madhatte said:


> As short staffed as we are each year, we straight up couldn't fight fires where I work without dozers. Dozers are great.



Dozers are probably the best thing to happen to wildland firefighting since the concept of learning fire behavior. There aren't a lot of young guys who want to fight fire anymore. And, a lot of older guys are retiring, so the mechanization of using dozers isn't so bad.


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## tramp bushler

With some fuel types . even 4+ wide with a 10' blade isnt enough. 

on this day the fire spotted over this line alot.


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## tramp bushler

Even tho we had done a tremendous amount of work with the dozers, a hoe and 3 line crews . . the work looked GREAT . But the spots turned to slop and it got on the back side of the ridge we were on and got up into the piles I had pushedup.


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## Metals406

tramp bushler said:


> Even tho we had done a tremendous amount of work with the dozers, a hoe and 3 line crews . . the work looked GREAT . But the spots turned to slop and it got on the back side of the ridge we were on and got up into the piles I had pushedup.


That's the dance you do in a fire, lay too much wood down, it can be a spot for a slash pile from hell.

Don't cut enough, you can leave candles, hazards, etc.


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## catbuster

Metals406 said:


> That's the dance you do in a fire, lay too much wood down, it can be a spot for a slash pile from hell.
> 
> Don't cut enough, you can leave candles, hazards, etc.



But, as I said before, that's the greatest part of having a dozer or a hoe on scene-it takes a couple flicks of the wrist to lay out a pile.


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## madhatte

BeatCJ said:


> the definition of sawyer is someone that doesn't like to dig.



HA! Too true... or maybe even don't care for pulling hose, which is me. If I can't do it with a driptorch or a chainsaw, I'm gonna be leery of getting involved at all!


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## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> HA! Too true... or maybe even don't care for pulling hose, which is me. If I can't do it with a driptorch or a chainsaw, I'm gonna be leery of getting involved at all!


I liked pulling hose...as long as it was coming off the reel. Heck even laying 500 or 600 feet of hose is OK. Much beyond that and all I could think of was when is the inmate crew going to get here. I pumped some long hose lays when I drove a contract water tender. Sure glad I didn't have to pick it up. Nowadays I laugh when I see the pics of huge piles of hose at the incident base after everything is done.


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## tramp bushler

Lance Gidley;Sand Point. 
One of my dozer bosses. the only one I have a still of. One of my other DB Jesse Myers from Missoula a Smoke Jumper I got on vid but my fon wont let me edit out stills. 
. I guess Lance liked the job I was doing . We used a variety of comms on this fire . Text and cell being reliable in reception over 2/3rds of the fires area.


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## tramp bushler

Me and Olga , hideing in The Black


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## catbuster

2dogs said:


> I liked pulling hose...as long as it was coming off the reel. Heck even laying 500 or 600 feet of hose is OK. Much beyond that and all I could think of was when is the inmate crew going to get here. I pumped some long hose lays when I drove a contract water tender. Sure glad I didn't have to pick it up. Nowadays I laugh when I see the pics of huge piles of hose at the incident base after everything is done.



Even as an Lt, which levels out to engine boss on wildland fires, on Squad 31, and I'll define a squad as a heavy rescue truck with a 1500 GPM pump, 750 gallons tank water plus some hoses and nozzles. I hated pumping long hose lays. And I mean, on some calls, we were looking at a half-mile to a fire hydrant. I hate hoses. With a passion. Re-racking a half mile of wet, heavy 5" supply line when it's 10 degrees outside at 3:00 AM in January blows. 


I will now deviate even more from wildland, and I apologize in advance. We had a large house fire last December where we damn near laid out 7200 feet of 5" supply line... And then we got the tank tender out, set up 4000 gallons of dump tanks... At the end of a 2000' driveway. There was space for one truck at the end. In structural firefighting, on a structure fire, the "truck" (read: ladder truck carrying tools and no water or hoses) gets the front of the house so it's easier to pull tools off. Well, the engine putting the wet stuff on the red stuff can't be 2000' away, but I cannot wait ten minutes to get a haligan.

So, 31 arrives first on scene, from Station 2, followed by truck 55 and engine 33 out of station 1. The Chief had not showed up so I called command. The first thing I called for was to have 33 lay in from a hydrant. I was pretty surprised when they called and told me it was too far of a lay. Thankfully, 55 truck is really a "quint," or a ladder with a pump and some hoses. So, I called back to 2 to see if the volunteers could get my tender on the road. Thankfully we had a crew in quarters and they rolled. Then I called for a pickup to run the driveway and another tender. Unfortunately dispatch thought I called a box alarm... So instead of just what I needed I got 12 trucks on scene... Clogging up my only access, a 2 lane road. So, I sent them all back.

And then the chief arrived and I got to drive a 2000 gallon unbaffled tank 50 miles an hour around a windy, hilly road- 3208 Cat screaming and burning oil all the way.


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## madhatte

Most of our engines are Type 6 wildland rigs with 200' of 1" hard line on Hannay reels. They're handy and maneuverable. If I have to hook up soft line, I start grumbling. We buy the cheapest nylon soft line we can because we use it so seldom and we burn it up so often that it doesn't make sense to pay more. There's also always the NH/NPSH/quarter-turn argument. I really only like to pull line from the reel and mop up with the spray nozzle on a Forester rather than a pulaski. It stirs well and is miserly with the water. The fog nozzle is good for open flames in short fuels or on vertical stems but not much else. In my experience, it's way easier to starve a fire of fuel than of oxygen or heat, so I prefer a saw or a torch as a tool whenever practical. I pledge eternal love for dozers for making trails so I can pull hose where I need to.



catbuster said:


> And then the chief arrived and I got to drive a 2000 gallon unbaffled tank 50 miles an hour around a windy, hilly road- 3208 Cat screaming and burning oil all the way.



*shudder* no thanks



tramp bushler said:


> We used a variety of comms on this fire . Text and cell being reliable in reception over 2/3rds of the fires area.



Yep. Sometimes you just gotta make it work. Lots of times I lead the dozer with a flag on the end of a shovel handle, fire a chain or two off my shoulder.



2dogs said:


> Nowadays I laugh when I see the pics of huge piles of hose at the incident base after everything is done.



Or on the floor of my shop to be dealt with in the morning.


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## madhatte

My dozer op VS last Wed lookin tough after cutting and improving 2 miles of trail


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## tramp bushler

Before we got federal Overhead on this fire , the IT Trainee , Ted Morris had to pull double duty as a dozer boss. He would use a bunch of flagging on a pulaski handle. and lead the dozer if thimgs got hot and heavy. As an operator the thingI hate most is when.


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## catbuster

madhatte said:


> Most of our engines are Type 6 wildland rigs with 200' of 1" hard line on Hannay reels. They're handy and maneuverable. If I have to hook up soft line, I start grumbling. We buy the cheapest nylon soft line we can because we use it so seldom and we burn it up so often that it doesn't make sense to pay more. There's also always the NH/NPSH/quarter-turn argument. I really only like to pull line from the reel and mop up with the spray nozzle on a Forester rather than a pulaski. It stirs well and is miserly with the water. The fog nozzle is good for open flames in short fuels or on vertical stems but not much else. In my experience, it's way easier to starve a fire of fuel than of oxygen or heat, so I prefer a saw or a torch as a tool whenever practical. I pledge eternal love for dozers for making trails so I can pull hose where I need to.
> 
> 
> 
> *shudder* no thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Sometimes you just gotta make it work. Lots of times I lead the dozer with a flag on the end of a shovel handle, fire a chain or two off my shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> Or on the floor of my shop to be dealt with in the morning.



31 and 33, plus our reserve piece, 32, class out as Type 1. We have one rig that classes out as a 5 in terms of pump and water but is closer to a 7 in terms of GVW. 67, the tender, is scary to drive but is really nice in that it has pump and roll capability. And I drive it either filled to the brim or completely dry. A training burn in April nearly killed it when the battalion chief backed it over a cistern and nearly put it on its' side. And yeah, you can say "slow down" but when I'm the only tender around, my guys are flowing 750-1000 GPM and I have a long haul, it's not an option. 

Now... That's with a rural structure-oriented department. Out west, things change a whole lot.


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## tramp bushler

pushing along black edge and suddenly a finger fish hooks around and Ive already blasted trees into the fire . In black spruce it often is so thick you cant see 10 feet.


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## 2dogs

catbuster said:


> Even as an Lt, which levels out to engine boss on wildland fires, on Squad 31, and I'll define a squad as a heavy rescue truck with a 1500 GPM pump, 750 gallons tank water plus some hoses and nozzles. I hated pumping long hose lays. And I mean, on some calls, we were looking at a half-mile to a fire hydrant. I hate hoses. With a passion. Re-racking a half mile of wet, heavy 5" supply line when it's 10 degrees outside at 3:00 AM in January blows.
> 
> 
> I will now deviate even more from wildland, and I apologize in advance. We had a large house fire last December where we damn near laid out 7200 feet of 5" supply line... And then we got the tank tender out, set up 4000 gallons of dump tanks... At the end of a 2000' driveway. There was space for one truck at the end. In structural firefighting, on a structure fire, the "truck" (read: ladder truck carrying tools and no water or hoses) gets the front of the house so it's easier to pull tools off. Well, the engine putting the wet stuff on the red stuff can't be 2000' away, but I cannot wait ten minutes to get a haligan.
> 
> So, 31 arrives first on scene, from Station 2, followed by truck 55 and engine 33 out of station 1. The Chief had not showed up so I called command. The first thing I called for was to have 33 lay in from a hydrant. I was pretty surprised when they called and told me it was too far of a lay. Thankfully, 55 truck is really a "quint," or a ladder with a pump and some hoses. So, I called back to 2 to see if the volunteers could get my tender on the road. Thankfully we had a crew in quarters and they rolled. Then I called for a pickup to run the driveway and another tender. Unfortunately dispatch thought I called a box alarm... So instead of just what I needed I got 12 trucks on scene... Clogging up my only access, a 2 lane road. So, I sent them all back.
> 
> You need tender balls. You know, the big plastic whiffle balls that prevent sloshing. They work.
> 
> When we first got our ladder truck many years ago, to replace a 1949 La France, we ordered 5" supply line in 100' lengths to save on the cost of couplings. What a mistake that was! That 5" is heavy stuff. My old department then replaced that quint (104' Sutphen) with a tillered arial.
> 
> And then the chief arrived and I got to drive a 2000 gallon unbaffled tank 50 miles an hour around a windy, hilly road- 3208 Cat screaming and burning oil all the way.



You need tender balls.


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## 2dogs

tramp bushler said:


> Me and Olga , hideing in The BlackView attachment 438469



No curtains in the cab?


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## madhatte

catbuster said:


> I drive it either filled to the brim or completely dry.



I got in a fight with the higher-ups over this earlier this season. I wanted my tender crews to either use their water, fill everybody, or dump it before traveling; higher-ups wanted water available, however little. I argued operator safety, they argued slow down. We'll see how it goes. We did lose a tender in 2008 to a roll-over accident. No injuries, thankfully, but the truck was a total loss. I'm not inclined to value water over lives.


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## BeatCJ

Standard verbiage is "always keep 100 gallons reserve in your tank". Pretty sure I don't agree, but I tend to keep my mouth shut. Our Tenders are all well baffled, so we don't dump excess water. But you do feel it, no matter how fast you are moving.


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## tramp bushler

2dogs said:


> No curtains in the





2dogs said:


> cab?




Olga's owner is Thor Jorgenson


2dogs said:


> No curtains in the cab?


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## catbuster

BeatCJ said:


> Standard verbiage is "always keep 100 gallons reserve in your tank". Pretty sure I don't agree, but I tend to keep my mouth shut. Our Tenders are all well baffled, so we don't dump excess water. But you do feel it, no matter how fast you are moving.



I don't agree with having fluid slosh in a tank that's already pretty high up, and I helped write my department's apparatus operating SOPs. So, if you are moving in excess of 20 miles per hour the tank is either topped off or dumped. No in between. The tender also does not exceed 50 miles per hour speed loaded, period. We only have one water tender, and it's old, and used primarily in a "fill-dump" arrangement where the tanker dumps into a dump tank for and engine to draft from, or nurses an engine. We also use it as a portable hydrant for type 5/6 engines on large brush fires.


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## madhatte

Any chance I could get a copy of that SOP? I'd like to have some documentation to back up my argument.


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## tramp bushler

Gypo Logger said:


> It's funny how they call them brush fires when a few million board feet turn to charcoal. Loggers can't seem to put a dent in the resource compared to natural forces.
> Have a drink on me.View attachment 437853


Gypo; I couldnt figure out your post . . Guys talkin about fires in Cal. and Warshington . But you put up a pic that looks like Glennallen or Tok Alaska. A little A.S. stalking and I found out the cause . Cool ! That jug looks like fireweed honey .


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## catbuster

madhatte said:


> Any chance I could get a copy of that SOP? I'd like to have some documentation to back up my argument.



Send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send you one when I have some time


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## madhatte

Today's fire was started by a stolen car burned to hide evidence.

















Once again, animal trails escape burning due to minor compaction:








catbuster said:


> Send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send you one when I have some time



Sent.

Also: uggh, the media


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## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> I got in a fight with the higher-ups over this earlier this season. I wanted my tender crews to either use their water, fill everybody, or dump it before traveling; higher-ups wanted water available, however little. I argued operator safety, they argued slow down. We'll see how it goes. We did lose a tender in 2008 to a roll-over accident. No injuries, thankfully, but the truck was a total loss. I'm not inclined to value water over lives.


Nate you need tender balls too.


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## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Nate you need tender balls too.



You're probably right; I feel like this is a fight for the off-season, though.


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## tramp bushler

on the Tetlin Hills fire this summer the contract tender went off edge of a switch back backwards. It stalled for some reason going up . For some reason the driver couldnt hold it on the hill so she bailed out . It is a real steep road in some places. It was an old 6×6 International with a gas engine and air brakes. . it tumbled and rolled down into a draw for about 200 yards . Dont think that tanker will be on anymore fires . The driver was uninjured. . She had made the trip up loaded several times so she knew how to drive it and the truck could do it.
Maybe it got some bad fuel or a plugged up filter?


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## tramp bushler

I dont have any pics of it yet. My fon was full.


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## BeatCJ

Never had anything like that happen. All 4 of our tenders have diesels and Allison's, now. We do have one with a Detroit that has run backwards a couple of times, though. So far it stopped when you pull the stop knob.

We didn't send our tenders out when they were Korean vintage Deuces. It's a cryin' shame, there are only 3 of us left that can remember driving them. Even now, we only send our Pete's with Cat engines. Not as comfy as our Type 5/6s, but good enough. Just had to have the A/C serviced, turns out most of our problem was 24 years of candy wrappers into the air box. Evidently the intake for the A/C is under the dash, passenger side feet right next to the firewall. So many years of throwing candy in our local parade must have took it's toll.

I enjoy tender duty now and then. A steady diet of it would be boring, but for a week or so, I'm good. I suspect that if I could keep busy, it would be OK for longer.


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## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> You're probably right; I feel like this is a fight for the off-season, though.


I've seen baffle balls around $8.00 each. 100 balls for a 1000 gallon tactical tender. I drove a 4000 gallon tender for a couple of years that was well baffled. Still if I hit the maxis and jumped out it could lift a tire from the sloshing. Most of my time was either delivering drinking water or pumping in to well drilling operations.


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## catbuster

2dogs said:


> I've seen baffle balls around $8.00 each. 100 balls for a 1000 gallon tactical tender. I drove a 4000 gallon tender for a couple of years that was well baffled. Still if I hit the maxis and jumped out it could lift a tire from the sloshing. Most of my time was either delivering drinking water or pumping in to well drilling operations.



Chief OK'd the Gempler's balls. We will see how they work. Do they attach together or just float in the tank? If they just float in the tank I'll lose them all every time I dump into a dump tank.


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## 2dogs

They are just small enough to fit in the man hole on the top of the tank. If you have a 12" square dump valve then no problem.


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## 2dogs

A USFS firefighter from SD was killed on a fire in California. Dangerous work people.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/31...led-while-responding-to-a-fire-in-california/


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## madhatte

2dogs said:


> I've seen baffle balls around $8.00 each. 100 balls for a 1000 gallon tactical tender. I drove a 4000 gallon tender for a couple of years that was well baffled. Still if I hit the maxis and jumped out it could lift a tire from the sloshing. Most of my time was either delivering drinking water or pumping in to well drilling operations.



We had the rotten old shims between bed and frame on one of our tenders let loose on a fire last week; the bed, and 1000 gallons attached to it shifted and hung on by the U-bolts. I wonder if the balls would have helped there?

As for today's fatality, I will be awaiting the incident report. News is very basic as of yet and I will be interested so see what lessons there are to be learned.


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## catbuster

madhatte said:


> We had the rotten old shims between bed and frame on one of our tenders let loose on a fire last week; the bed, and 1000 gallons attached to it shifted and hung on by the U-bolts. I wonder if the balls would have helped there?



Unless the balls can prevent all sloshing, those shims would have eventually let go anyway. That sounds like a PMs fix, IMO.


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## madhatte

Fire... on a golf course. We kept it to 4 acres through judicious use of burnouts. I never thought I'd burn out a golf course. The course staff have been super appreciative and even brought us sandwiches last night. This was a straightforward ignition and mopup operation; the toughest part of it, as IC, has been dealing with the public. During sizeup I had to chase off a bunch of angry golfers who were too stupid to get out of the way of a wildfire, and who threw golf balls at us as they left, and all the calls from dispatch and the base regarding the smoke across the freeway. I watched the traffic jam with little interest until it was time to fill the tender back up. Yeah, the turn-around time was impacted a little. 







I think this is where it started. My theory is that a golfer stepped off into the woods to take a leak, and dropped a lit cigar. It smoldered overnight, and blew up when the afternoon sun hit the hot spot.




Containment by sprinkler?


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## Gologit

63 dozers and 43 water tenders. They'd have more but there aren't any available.

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1161


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## madhatte

Whoah, 63 dozers is a lot.


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## tramp bushler

327 fire engines and 83 fire crews. 
over 3,000 people on that fire. WOW !!!


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## tramp bushler

68,000 acres. thats a big area .


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## tramp bushler

87 crews . Mis read it the first time.


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## Gologit

It's mostly buck-brush with a lot of dry grass and scrub oak. A lot of people built houses, whole subdivions sometimes, surrounded by that crap. I don't know why. The buck-brush is usually higher than your head and thick enough to be inpenetrable by people on foot. Pure fuel, especially after four years of drought.
Lots of narrow winding roads, poor access for equipment, slick rock under the vegetation, short steep ground, and scant water sources except for Clear Lake.
They're using the VLATs whenever they can get them.


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## tramp bushler

I watched The Dozer Boss series of you tube vids. that short steep ground with rock uner it would be a real pita to push a line with. Would definately want some dozers around with a winch on them.


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## tramp bushler

Im gonna politic the outfit I was runnin the 5 for to find a winch for it. Always bothered me that none of the dozers on the fire I was on had a winch o


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## tramp bushler

Whats a VLAT ?


----------



## Gologit

Evergreen had a 747 tanked but I don't think it's running this year.


----------



## tramp bushler

wow, thats cool !!


----------



## tramp bushler

I was texting one of my dozer bosses from this summer. This morning . he sent me this almost real time pic. He was on the way to eastern Montana


----------



## DavdH

Rocky fire 
CDF called about mid-night Sunday, loaded 2 D-6's headed out (fire duty so no permits required and a highway patrol escort). Got to the fire about 4am, redirected to 3 locations, cats were still loaded 24hr later. Things we a changin' fast, got a break from the weather yesterday and today so making a little progress. We're still logging so I haven't been updated by our guys, so far we only sent road crews. Things were busy just to the north also, got the first call to the ROCKY fire, so that's were they went. Came over hwy 20 about an hour before they closed the road, engines every where, CDF, USFS, BLM, department of Interior, strike teams from all over CA.

http://simtable.com/apps/fireProgression/output2015/


----------



## LarryTheCableGuy

The Rocky Fire: My dad lives in Hidden Valley Lake just south of the fire and has property in Clearlake just west of the fire. He has been fine so far.


----------



## catbuster

DavdH said:


> Rocky fire
> CDF called about mid-night Sunday, loaded 2 D-6's headed out (fire duty so no permits required and a highway patrol escort). Got to the fire about 4am, redirected to 3 locations, cats were still loaded 24hr later. Things we a changin' fast, got a break from the weather yesterday and today so making a little progress. We're still logging so I haven't been updated by our guys, so far we only sent road crews. Things were busy just to the north also, got the first call to the ROCKY fire, so that's were they went. Came over hwy 20 about an hour before they closed the road, engines every where, CDF, USFS, BLM, department of Interior, strike teams from all over CA.
> 
> http://simtable.com/apps/fireProgression/output2015/



The Rocky fire was big enough to warrant a blurb on NPR this morning- it looks like a hellacious fire. BLM called me while I was teaching an S190 class, coincidentally. They asked if my for-hire crew was available to ship out west. So, we will see if the Cat is in Cali sometime soon.


----------



## Gologit

catbuster said:


> So, we will see if the Cat is in Cali sometime soon.



There's plenty of work.....

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_current


----------



## BGE541

Hope you all stay safe out and about, thanks for what you do.


----------



## tramp bushler

Jacob Ware ( warejn) is now on the Mad River Complex . He's on an engine. I think he wishes he was falling with his nice new 461 .


----------



## madhatte

Looks like we're getting a bit of a break over the next few days. Maybe I'll get some forestry done for once.


----------



## tramp bushler

There ya go !


----------



## catbuster

The Cat is not headed out West at the moment, which saddens me because I haven't worked there since 2009. So I'll just stick with running Squad 31/Tender 67. 

I have to say, owning a company and then being able to pay a foreman to do all the stressful managing stuff has really paid off this year. I can even get Madhatte his copy of my Tender SOG this week


----------



## 2dogs

Another USFS firefighter was killed yesterday, this time by a falling tree. Very sad. Another FF was injured by that tree.

If you can, send a few bucks to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation as a donation. Coors is making a big donation this year to the WFF too.


----------



## gary courtney

my condolensces! 5 hours today on fireline 104* 40 acres burned , no end to drought!


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> Another USFS firefighter was killed yesterday, this time by a falling tree. Very sad. Another FF was injured by that tree.
> 
> If you can, send a few bucks to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation as a donation. Coors is making a big donation this year to the WFF too.



Done.

That's a damn shame. There aren't enough guys who are good at this gig, and it's saddening. It takes a certain type of person to do this job, and most of them aren't in wildland. They're either doing structural firefighting or in the military.


----------



## catbuster

Today was a tough day for 31. My normal Lt. was out and I am filling in his spot and they replaced him with a 20 year old rookie straight out of fire school and not ideally qualified for the spot he was filling and was more of a warm body than an asset... He actually nearly killed me, but that's a different story.

We started the day having to split the crew between the tender and the Squad working another small fire, that was through a cedar stand and then started running. It started right after shift change- at 7:00 AM. Something's fishy there... Fires in 100 and 1000 hour fuels don't magically appear on a dewey/foggy morning.


----------



## tramp bushler

Glad your ok !! 
sad about the guythat was killed ! And the one hurt. Anyone know how it happened ?


----------



## 2dogs

The FF killed near Tahoe was 21 years old. Just a kid really. He was from Shingle Springs (30 miles east of Sacto).


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> The FF killed near Tahoe was 21 years old. Just a kid really. He was from Shingle Springs (30 miles east of Sacto).



Geez... Poor guy. That's a really bad deal. I remember being a young rookie and I really thank everyone who bailed me out of my screw ups to get me here.


----------



## tramp bushler

I heard on Fox news this evening that the Mad River Fire was 85% contained. But that another fire had got coing close to it that had got up to 5,000 acres real fast and was 0% contained. We had a heck of a thunderstorm here this afternoon that lasted for almost 3 hours . But weve had and continue to have plenty of rain so the fire danger is Low .


----------



## Gologit

This one is burning on some of our family's ground...

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1170


----------



## RandyMac

about time for a tasty King Range fire.


----------



## atpchas

Satellite view of western wildfires
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86366


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> about time for a tasty King Range fire.



Lets hope not.


----------



## tramp bushler

So, I heard on the news tonight 7,940 Square miles of Alaska burned this fire season. Thats is bigger than the state of New Jersey and almost the size of Massachutsets. . Ww are into the August rains now so we probably wont get much more fires this year.


----------



## Sparkysparks9

Here are a couple photos posted clearing a snag. This is the Stouts fire in Oregon...





Here is another photo of the same fire....


----------



## 2dogs

After reading facebook I guess I am related to Hallenbeck. The world lost a good guy.


----------



## 350X

Spent June/July in Koyukuk and Nulato. That was really something flying in there and seeing plumes every direction you looked


----------



## tramp bushler

How did you fight those fires , dozers ? Lot of burnable country around there but I dont think very much iron ? Sid you just pfotect structures


----------



## tramp bushler

Sometimes my editor doesnt kick in . " Did u primarily protect structures and the
villages ?


----------



## 350X

No iron. Saw n pump show. Miles of p line n burner lines outside of villages after we plumbed every building on every street plus the generators and tank farm. 25K feet plus of hose. Beautiful country.


----------



## BeatCJ

Done with Day 12. Doing line cleanup in 104 degree heat, 16% RH. We filled our packs with water, made 4 trips on 70% for more. My dogs are howling. Sure hope the shower line clears out some soon.


----------



## madhatte

Orange sky to the east in the morning, to the south all afternoon, and to the west in the evening. What all is burning here right now even? I think Inciweb only reports Type 3 and larger and there's a lot not on there. I was on one near Roy all afternoon/evening and forgot to look up much until after dark.


----------



## 350X

PL5 national today


----------



## catbuster

Today we worked a fire I could best describe as a slash pile that went bad rather quickly with a 25 MPH wind, 85 degree high and 30% RH, which is a red flag day in my area due to lack of resources. 

The problem was that they needed a tender driver, and it was my day off. There's an engine, a squad and an unstaffed tender... And there are at least two certified drivers on all staffed companies. That doesn't add up. Oh well. At least we washed trucks afterwards and cleaned out the bay.


----------



## madhatte

"washed" 

"trucks"

???


----------



## catbuster

madhatte said:


> "washed"
> 
> "trucks"
> 
> ???



Low run volume+public/fire board that doesn't want to pay us=forced professionalism. 

I'm still working on digitizing your copy of my SOG, by the way.


----------



## 2dogs

catbuster said:


> Low run volume+public/fire board that doesn't want to pay us=forced professionalism.
> 
> I'm still working on digitizing your copy of my SOG, by the way.


I take it you guys aren't IAFF.


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> I take it you guys aren't IAFF.



No, and unfortunately with this department being situated in a state featuring Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul as senators, I don't see unionization coming any time soon.


----------



## madhatte

catbuster said:


> I'm still working on digitizing your copy of my SOG, by the way.



I appreciate it. I'm working on a 2-page insert to our mapbook which would standardize IA comms and actions for specific groups of firing ranges, and any other inputs to that would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 350X

Pretty warm out some of you folks way. PL 5, Nor Cal 5 , NW 5.... Expecting a callup tonite or tomorrow. Keep them Pulaskis and saws sharp and keep lookin up...


----------



## catbuster

Does conking out in the rig's A/C while rehabbing on a call qualify for "WATCH OUT" situation 18?


----------



## 2dogs

catbuster said:


> Low run volume+public/fire board that doesn't want to pay us=forced professionalism.
> 
> I'm still working on digitizing your copy of my SOG, by the way.


I take it you guys aren't IAFF.


----------



## 350X

catbuster said:


> Does conking out in the rig's A/C while rehabbing on a call qualify for "WATCH OUT" situation 18?


Thats called training for #18


----------



## 350X




----------



## dhskier2

Sparkysparks9 said:


> Here are a couple photos posted clearing a snag.
> View attachment 440717



Perhaps the answer is pretty straight forward... but do air filters just get nuked when the saw is running that close to burning or smoldering trees? I'd think that the hot air being drawn by the intake would melt the filter element?


----------



## catbuster

dhskier2 said:


> Perhaps the answer is pretty straight forward... but do air filters just get nuked when the saw is running that close to burning or smoldering trees? I'd think that the hot air being drawn by the intake would melt the filter element?



No, you'd be surprised how much heat the filter element can handle. The plastics on my old 044 I used for all my wildland work had the plastics discolored from heat, but the filters are fine. 

If you think about it, the saw's engine components get significantly higher than the air around any burning snag. If it was hotter than that, there would be so much smoke the saw wouldn't run.


----------



## 2dogs

The air flow from the saw's fan can sure whip up a smoldering log! From embers to flame in a second or two.


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> The air flow from the saw's fan can sure whip up a smoldering log! From embers to flame in a second or two.



I can say I've caused a rekindle from doing that... Which then got me a nice chewing on from the IC. He apparently wanted to go home. [emoji38] That 660's fan blew an ember across a control line and into a patch of dry grass.


----------



## dhskier2

2dogs said:


> The air flow from the saw's fan can sure whip up a smoldering log! From embers to flame in a second or two.



It's that kind of thing that had me figuring the filter would cook. If the power head is that close to whip the log up, then that's some hot air coming in through the filter


----------



## tramp bushler

Ive started the moss on cedars burning real good when I was bushelin with 044s . It would get smoldering when putting in the faceon nice yellow cedars . when the face slid out I would goose the saw a few times to clear out the bar grooveand the bellows effect from the exuast would fan the flames. . That was on Prince of Wales where 2 weeks without heavy rain is an actual drought. had to get the tree on the ground quick to get the fire out. By the time I would have them leaving the stump. The flames would be 30' up the tree.


----------



## 2dogs

Oh no. I just heard that 3 FFs were killed today in Washington near Twisp. I have no details. Tears out.


----------



## slowp

2dogs said:


> Oh no. I just heard that 3 FFs were killed today in Washington near Twisp. I have no details. Tears out.



It was up a canyon off the Twisp River. I used to live and work in that part of the country. They would have been in brush and grass with an occasional pine tree. One report mentioned firefighters trapped in a driveway, not sure if it was them, and it was too smoky to see them to get them out with a helicopter...very sad.

That whole part of the valley--Twisp and Winthrop are under a level 3 evacuation. They cannot go out the North Cascades highway because it is blocked by a fire. Winthrop folks have been told to go south down the east county road because the main highway is full of fire equipment. They will join up with the Twisp evacuation there. Then they have a choice to go over another mountain pass and drop into the Okanogan Valley, which has it's own fires--it looked like part of Omak was going to burn yesterday. Or down another two lane highway to hwy 97 at the junction of the Methow River and Columbia.

Friends have a house that almost burned up last year. Their renters have once again bugged out, but left sprinklers on outside the house. My friends, who live in the Okanogan Valley may also need to get out if the winds kick up. That's predicted to happen. Have heard that they are hammering the Twisp fire with air tankers but the wind may put an end to that.

Conconully, a neat little town where they have outhouse races in the winter has been evacuated again.

The weather forecast is for gusty winds as a cold front is passing through. It isn't looking good. It's just a very sad, bad day. We wait for the names...


----------



## slowp

Here is a link to a bulletin board which sometimes has pertinent news reported by the local residents.
http://www.methownet.com/grist/bulletinboard.html

I guess our highway is also closed because of a fire to the west of here. The madness is getting closer.


----------



## 350X

2dogs said:


> Oh no. I just heard that 3 FFs were killed today in Washington near Twisp. I have no details. Tears out.


----------



## HuskStihl

Very sad to hear that. I hope all our AS brethren stay safe


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> Oh no. I just heard that 3 FFs were killed today in Washington near Twisp. I have no details. Tears out.



Jesus. Did you get any details? And now they're sending military guys with no experience heading into the worst part of the season. That scares me.


----------



## catbuster

Anybody remember when I said a couple days ago the 20 year old rookie nearly got us killed? Well... He learned that in order to be a swamper and spotter, you have to be looking up into the tree crowns. A large branch broke out of the top and landed on my head. And because I was wearing a structural helmet it folded right over my fece. 

Here is the aftermath-my melted Oakley sunglasses. I also got a couple minor burns on my face and neck, plus some bruising, so I'm stuck being the rig chauffeur. It blows, but it's honestly mostly my fault for relying on an inexperienced spotter and not wearing a proper hard hat with a full brim. I'm just glad I was wearing eye protection or I might just be a cyclops.


----------



## slowp

catbuster said:


> Jesus. Did you get any details? And now they're sending military guys with no experience heading into the worst part of the season. That scares me.



When I used to go to fires, the military was not put in the worst places. They did mop up or line improvements not to mention hauling us around. Those are necessary jobs to do so they will be a great help.

Reports from various places have the dead folks as being from Twisp and Winthrop and Forest Service.


----------



## catbuster

slowp said:


> When I used to go to fires, the military was not put in the worst places. They did mop up or line improvements not to mention hauling us around. Those are necessary jobs to do so they will be a great help.
> 
> Reports from various places have the dead folks as being from Twisp and Winthrop and Forest Service.



I know and agree, but then you have to put the guys who would otherwise be doing mop up and hauling gear into, quite frankly, the rough ****, that they may not have the skill or experience to handle, it's another bad situation. But hey, I'm not one to armchair quarterback. I was told on no uncertain terms that I am not headed West this year.


----------



## slowp

http://q13fox.com/2015/08/19/entire-washington-town-remains-evacuated-but-still-standing/

There is an error on their tweets. Salkum is about 200 miles from the Methow and is in a totally different part of the state...30 miles from me. Don't know why they have it on that report.

The wind is really picking up here so I hope the guys with the big yellow equipment have our local fire well controlled. It might be a sleepless night here in the temperate rain forest.


----------



## madhatte

catbuster said:


> Jesus. Did you get any details? And now they're sending military guys with no experience heading into the worst part of the season. That scares me.



The military guys are coming from my command. There's 200 of them, as I understand, and they're training now, and should be deployed by this weekend. The higher-ups are hemming and hawing about supervision. It may be my group. They'll likely be tasked with mopup. It's likely to be interesting.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> The wind is really picking up here so I hope the guys with the big yellow equipment have our local fire well controlled. It might be a sleepless night here in the temperate rain forest.



How's that fire that's just down the road from you?


----------



## slowp

Gologit said:


> How's that fire that's just down the road from you?



I have no idea. It smells like it is winter and there is an inversion trapping the woodstove smoke. I trust that the guys with the big yellow chunks of equipment have a good line around it, since they also live close to it. I don't think I will sleep much tonight though because the wind is blowing pretty good and I am downwind from it. The facebook report shows it to be in a clearcut that was logged a couple years ago. They (Port Blakely) piled and burned slash all the way along the road so there shouldn't be too heavy of a fuel load on the roadside. This is from somebody else's facebook page. You are looking west.


There is another fire about 30 miles to the west and a facebook report said they burned up a firetruck on it. That one has the highway closed and an area evacuated. Unlike the Methow Valley, we have quite a few options besides Hwy 12.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> The military guys are coming from my command. There's 200 of them, as I understand, and they're training now, and should be deployed by this weekend. The higher-ups are hemming and hawing about supervision. It may be my group. They'll likely be tasked with mopup. It's likely to be interesting.



They seemed to be enthusiastic about it all, when we had them. I seem to recall them doing exercises the first morning, but then they found out it was hard work and quit doing that. They were easy to spot. Their nomex was brand new and very clean.

That was 1987 which was a very busy year. I arrived on one fire to do something overfedish and we were a last priority camp so could get no showers or much of anything. Then the National Guard arrived and things became quite civilized. They brought in two busses and ran them on a schedule back and forth to the local school, where we could take showers. Meanwhile, they brought in a big tent and turned it into a shower tent--kind of like MASH. 
They also ran the busses one night so we could go and support the teeny town's football team. I think it was the biggest crowd they'd ever had there.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> They seemed to be enthusiastic about it all, when we had them. I seem to recall them doing exercises the first morning, but then they found out it was hard work and quit doing that. They were easy to spot. Their nomex was brand new and very clean.
> 
> That was 1987 which was a very busy year. I arrived on one fire to do something overfedish and we were a last priority camp so could get no showers or much of anything. Then the National Guard arrived and things became quite civilized. They brought in two busses and ran them on a schedule back and forth to the local school, where we could take showers. Meanwhile, they brought in a big tent and turned it into a shower tent--kind of like MASH.
> They also ran the busses one night so we could go and support the teeny town's football team. I think it was the biggest crowd they'd ever had there.



I have a feeling that your prescience would be worth money if you set up a tent just outside of camp and pretended to be a fortune-teller. Every detail rings true. I want a cut for this suggestion if you do strike it rich. Just sayin'.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> I have a feeling that your prescience would be worth money if you set up a tent just outside of camp and pretended to be a fortune-teller. Every detail rings true. I want a cut for this suggestion if you do strike it rich. Just sayin'.



I still can't remember what I was doing there. I had blown out an ankle earlier in the year on a fire so no more fire crewing that season. I seem to recall making several trips and one flight up and down the I-5 corridor. Tiller and Canyonville come to mind but the football game was in Riddle.

I do wish you would speak with your Army folks about flying their helicopters. They came over low last night just when I'd finally started to doze off.


----------



## slowp

https://www.facebook.com/Okanogan.County.Emergency.Management?fref=ts

Sounds like all of the rural area of the county, and the Methow Valley are in evacuation mode. That's a real neat county even though it now has 3 stoplights.


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> I do wish you would speak with your Army folks about flying their helicopters. They came over low last night just when I'd finally started to doze off.



They fly low because it's not so far to the ground when parts start falling off and they need to land fast. Remember, everything on that bird was built by the lowest bidder.
It's gotta be true, a helicopter pilot said it.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> I do wish you would speak with your Army folks about flying their helicopters. They came over low last night just when I'd finally started to doze off.



That's the sound of Freedom.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> That's the sound of Freedom.



Been wondering who would be the first.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> That's the sound of Freedom.


 That's the sound of several million dollars worth of spare parts flying in close formation.


----------



## madhatte

Sometimes I have to go for the easy yuks. I can't be all sophisticated 24/7, y'know.


----------



## tramp bushler

I know those Blackhawks can put the hurt on a fire if they can reload the bag close by . we had them on the Tetlin Hills fire. When pushing with the 5 and a pair of them would roar past @ 200' . It would kinda put the fear into me. I was VERY GLAD THEY WERE PACKIN WATER , Not Cannons !!!!


----------



## madhatte

Sometimes we get air support. It's usually more for show than anything, though. The public loves to see water shows.


----------



## northmanlogging

helicopters 10,000 loose nuts and bolts, piloted by 1 loose nut.


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> They seemed to be enthusiastic about it all, when we had them. I seem to recall them doing exercises the first morning, but then they found out it was hard work and quit doing that. They were easy to spot. Their nomex was brand new and very clean.
> 
> That was 1987 which was a very busy year. I arrived on one fire to do something overfedish and we were a last priority camp so could get no showers or much of anything. Then the National Guard arrived and things became quite civilized. They brought in two busses and ran them on a schedule back and forth to the local school, where we could take showers. Meanwhile, they brought in a big tent and turned it into a shower tent--kind of like MASH.
> They also ran the busses one night so we could go and support the teeny town's football team. I think it was the biggest crowd they'd ever had there.



1987. I went from the Summit Fire here in Santa Cruz to the Las Palitas fire in SLO county. I was just a contractor (runner) for the state. That was a busy year


----------



## Joe46

Interesting article on the state asking for volunteers. Stated it was the first time ever. When I got off active duty from the Navy in "67" They were posting pick up points for volunteers to fight fires. I fortunately ran into a buddy that told me Kenworth was hiring. I went there instead!


----------



## northmanlogging

Hwy 2 in New Halem was closed for a fire there, not sure it is still closed. Vids on Face Book made it look fairly good sized.


----------



## 2dogs

I just got called by Cal Fire to provide a faller module on the Cuesta fire. I would have jumped on this but I have two very important Scout functions tomorrow. If you are a Scouter then when I say I will be undergoing Vigil ordeal then you will know why I do not want to miss this event.


----------



## northmanlogging

Something to do with Eagle innit?


----------



## catbuster

northmanlogging said:


> Something to do with Eagle innit?



No, it's the highest honor Order of the Arrow, Scouting's honor society. It's a bigger deal than Eagle.


----------



## 350X

Good stuff 2Dogs. Congrats! Eagle and Brotherhood here. If Im correct and memory serves me right Vigil is by nomination by peers only?


----------



## Joe46

I believe I still have my Order of the Arrow sash stashed away somewhere!


----------



## slowp

Joe46 said:


> Interesting article on the state asking for volunteers. Stated it was the first time ever. When I got off active duty from the Navy in "67" They were posting pick up points for volunteers to fight fires. I fortunately ran into a buddy that told me Kenworth was hiring. I went there instead!



I spent the weekend at a pickerfest, got home and filled out their application. I can't do line work, but could be a camp slug--(support). I think they want equipment operators. 

It was a sad day yesterday. I bought a paper and one of the names was familiar. I worked with his parents a long time ago. Sigh...

I'm getting a smoke headache.


----------



## northmanlogging

Been over 20 years since I had anything to do with scouting other then the occasional lend a hand stuff, and the Darrington troop was less then functional... hit second class and stalled for lack of adult support to get any merit badges to make 1st, let alone anything else... so I got a job and moved on.


----------



## 2dogs

350X said:


> Good stuff 2Dogs. Congrats! Eagle and Brotherhood here. If Im correct and memory serves me right Vigil is by nomination by peers only?


Yes


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> hit second class and stalled for lack of adult support to get any merit badges to make 1st, let alone anything else... so I got a job and moved on.



Similar here. Went to board for First Class, and the scoutmaster, a retired Nazarene minister, asked me to prove "reverence". Well, I'm not a religious fellow, so he denied me my promotion. I quit right then and there. Woulda stayed but I was just not gonna get into a religious argument every time I tried to advance at the age of 15. Oddly, that experience has been repeated a few times in my life, though it wasn't always about religion. I've often chosen to abandon plans rather than principles.


----------



## BeatCJ

northmanlogging said:


> Been over 20 years since I had anything to do with scouting other then the occasional lend a hand stuff, and the Darrington troop was less then functional... hit second class and stalled for lack of adult support to get any merit badges to make 1st, let alone anything else... so I got a job and moved on.


Wow, pretty much my story, too, but add a couple of decades.



madhatte said:


> Similar here. Went to board for First Class, and the scoutmaster, a retired Nazarene minister, asked me to prove "reverence". Well, I'm not a religious fellow, so he denied me my promotion. I quit right then and there. Woulda stayed but I was just not gonna get into a religious argument every time I tried to advance at the age of 15. Oddly, that experience has been repeated a few times in my life, though it wasn't always about religion. I've often chosen to abandon plans rather than principles.



"Prove" reverence? Urgh. Somebody should have smacked him upside the head. You can do a lot of things, but it's pretty tough to "PROVE". Ooops, this isn't the place/forum for a religious discussion.

Back on track, we had a little roadside fire last night, alder tree fell on a powerline, snapped it off, and the arc started a fire right next to the State Highway. The end of the line was hanging just above the ground, not arcing by the time we got there, it must have started it while it was swinging. 70% slope, heavy brush, duff/leaf litter, some timber, several houses at the top of the slope. Not much of a fire when we got there, but it tripled in size before PUD got the line de-energized. We made pretty short work of it after that, but the potential was there. I was sure glad the east wind had calmed down, and you could feel that the temps had dropped and humidity had gone up. So many things went in our favor, or we would be on the news this morning.

WSP wasn't happy that I had the road closed for so long. We had a great detour, so I wasn't concerned. I asked for WSDOT, never got them. Too many radio channels going, two dispatch channels and two tactical channels, I should have clarified with my dispatch what I needed. We had a leaner tree that was growing off of a nurse stump, the roots and rotted stump were done after the fire. Luckily PUD had a heavy crew out, they chunked it down to protect the power lines. It was off of the narrow right of way, really would have been a bear to fall. The exposed roots were about 3 feet above the soil line. The property owner would have been willing to let us take it, but the B Fallers on scene just looked at each other. I know it was WAY outside of my pay grade. The PUD guys, from their quick response to getting the power off to the work they did after the fire were our saviors.


----------



## madhatte

BeatCJ said:


> "Prove" reverence? Urgh. Somebody should have smacked him upside the head. You can do a lot of things, but it's pretty tough to "PROVE".



Pretty sure all he wanted was for me to join his church. I wouldn't have done that, either, but at least it would have been an honest demand instead of a passive-aggressive one.


----------



## northmanlogging

madhatte said:


> Similar here. Went to board for First Class, and the scoutmaster, a retired Nazarene minister, asked me to prove "reverence". Well, I'm not a religious fellow, so he denied me my promotion. I quit right then and there. Woulda stayed but I was just not gonna get into a religious argument every time I tried to advance at the age of 15. Oddly, that experience has been repeated a few times in my life, though it wasn't always about religion. I've often chosen to abandon plans rather than principles.



yup quit jobs more then once, walked out on former friends, left several bands, walked out on shows I was headlining, lots of different stuff, they call me arrogant or an *******... whatever, just certain things I won't stand for, usually based on lies, stealing or abuse... 

Luckily the Scout troop I was in never pushed religion much, would have been the end for me.


----------



## Odog

I was in scouts for awhile too, made it to first class, then our scout master bailed. He shaved his head and moved up north to join the Arian Nation. We joke about him as the scout Nazi now.


----------



## catbuster

This is why if you want to be a forefighter, stick with wildland.: Cats in trees.

Squad 31 responded like this:






Then we were sent to the wrong address by chief, and the truck and squad companies are similar in size but not in turning radius so it was funny to watch their chauffeur try to make it out of the little crappy driveway we were originally dispatched to.










After that, I don't have any more photos, but we then hiked back about a quarter of a mile with a 35' extension ladder, and our very own intrepid Catbuster (that's where I got my nickname, actually. My very first call was a cat in a tree which I quite literally busted out of the tree.) climbed that unstable SOB up the full 35' and then coaxed the useless hunk of purring fluff out.


----------



## BeatCJ

Since last night? Nope.

We have a three day waiting requirement for cats in trees. If they are still there on the 4th day, then we go get them. Really cuts down on the number we actually have to rescue.

My cat rescue attire also includes helmet with face shield down and eye protection, collar up and fastened. Always structure gloves.

We have also rescued two citizens out of trees that have tried to rescue their cats. Both times the cat climbed down while the human was stuck. Had one young lady standing on the top rung of a 20' extension ladder, with the base of the ladder way too close to the tree. She had her arms wrapped around the tree so tightly, I had trouble slipping the sit harness on her. We lowered her with ropes anchored in the tree above her.


----------



## catbuster

BeatCJ said:


> Since last night? Nope.
> 
> We have a three day waiting requirement for cats in trees. If they are still there on the 4th day, then we go get them. Really cuts down on the number we actually have to rescue.
> 
> My cat rescue attire also includes helmet with face shield down and eye protection, collar up and fastened. Always structure gloves.
> 
> We have also rescued two citizens out of trees that have tried to rescue their cats. Both times the cat climbed down while the human was stuck. Had one young lady standing on the top rung of a 20' extension ladder, with the base of the ladder way too close to the tree. She had her arms wrapped around the tree so tightly, I had trouble slipping the sit harness on her. We lowered her with ropes anchored in the tree above her.



That's an excellent idea, and yeah, the helmet went on- our SOG says no helmet is to be worn while the rig is moving. Dispatch, however, had different plans for us, apparently. It probably didn't help that it was at the board chair's residence. But what I want to know is why they dispatched the squad from the other side of the district when there's a staffed rescue in the station with the truck company.


----------



## BeatCJ

Because CAD doesn't have a response plan stored for cat Rescues.


----------



## 2dogs

Never seen a cat skeleton in a tree.

I have been on a seagull rescue though. We took our half million dollar 104' ladder truck out to rescue a seagull tangled in fishing line and stuck on the side of a building. I was the engineer and there was only two of us on the truck that day. The captain was not going to go up so it was up to me. I fought that stupid bird for several minutes before I got my arms around it enough to get my knife out. The gull was sqwakking like crazy and flapping its wings against me. It was a battle but I finally won and cut the line. When I got down there was an animal rescue guy screaming at my captain about how he was going to sue the City because I touched the bird and cut the line without bringing the bird to him. I broke the truck down and climbed in the cab. This rescue interrupted my breakfast. When we left he was still screaming. A few hours later the fire chief came up and interviewed us since the City manager had called him. That was the last we heard.


----------



## tramp bushler

wow , the extent of my public service is fighting fotest fires for good pay, movaing a blown tire carcass off the highway, my time in the Coast Guard . Where I actually did save a few lives. And what ever good samaritan


----------



## tramp bushler

acts I may preform. I cant figure out how u guys can stand to live around all those people. . But Im glad you do . !! 
To quote Slowp , Dont move here


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Never seen a cat skeleton in a tree.



Beat me to that one! First heard it from a family friend who is a veterinarian. Always thought it was a solid insight into cat logic.


----------



## Gologit

Cats in trees? Firemen? Large streams of water?


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> Cats in trees? Firemen? Large streams of water?



I don't know about you, but I'm not hauling 1/4 of a mile of hose out and then re-racking it for a cat. Especially at 6:00 AM.


----------



## BeatCJ

Nope, no fire streams.

But we do have a carded faller that got a cat out of a tree that was beyond our reach. Prior permission from the home/cat owner and all. The phrase "ran like a scalded dog" comes to mind. Obviously in good condition!The tree was limby Doug fir. Then he limbed it and bucked it into 16" chunks. No splitting or stacking, but we still had a happy customer/voter.


----------



## madhatte

Deploying to the east side. First couple of days will be group-training National Guard at Yakima and then assignment to fires as needed. Could be gone up to a month. If you don't hear from me for awhile, that'll be why.


----------



## tramp bushler

Thanks for letting us know. maybe your smarty pants fon will work over there.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> Deploying to the east side. First couple of days will be group-training National Guard at Yakima and then assignment to fires as needed. Could be gone up to a month. If you don't hear from me for awhile, that'll be why.



Teach 'em how to stay safe.
Keep yourself safe, too. You do realize that you're the only moderator here who knows that a tail hold isn't some kind of kinky 'rasslin mauneuver, don't you? Can't afford to lose you.


----------



## northmanlogging

stay safe, take pictures, and maybe a few videos...


----------



## catbuster

Take care buddy. Catch you on the flip side


----------



## northmanlogging

Finally raining hard here, windy too.

With any luck it will slow down the Jumbo and New Halem fires, but we're supposed to get thunder and lightning later


----------



## madhatte

Training 300 National Guard with FS trainers and DOD crew bosses, to be deployed under DNR command. It's as weird as it sounds. So far so good, assignments Thursday. They've got us bunking with them so as to be "embedded"? Ffffffffffffff. Barracks life was lame when I was in the navy, and that was a good long time ago. No matter. Gotta make a crew. Wish us luck.


----------



## BeatCJ

Are they going to try and give you enough Crew Bosses to make 20 person crews?


----------



## catbuster

I got a probie today. [emoji20] 31 has never had a probie before. We always got seasoned guys transferring from Truck and Rescue companies. This is going to be interesting... 

Edit: Turnover on crews is always a feeling out process. This new guy has balls... That's all I'll say after our first call with him. We might be able to turn him into something haha.


----------



## madhatte

BeatCJ said:


> Are they going to try and give you enough Crew Bosses to make 20 person crews?


Yes, that's the plan. There are FF's here from bases all over the west and we will be taking over the crews as soon as the trainers are done with 130/190. There is a lot of uncertainty yet regarding how's and whens, but the intent is clearly to field a dozen or so new Type 2 handcrews with us as crew bosses. It's fairly political but so far it seems to be moving fairly smoothly, at just above the Speed Of Government.


----------



## Eccentric

madhatte said:


> Training 300 National Guard with FS trainers and DOD crew bosses, to be deployed under DNR command. It's as weird as it sounds. So far so good, assignments Thursday. They've got us bunking with them so as to be "embedded"? Ffffffffffffff. Barracks life was lame when I was in the navy, and that was a good long time ago. No matter. Gotta make a crew. Wish us luck.



So did they make ya shave off yer beard/mustache and cut yer hair???


----------



## BeatCJ

When I go out, I always grow my beard out.


----------



## madhatte

Eccentric said:


> So did they make ya shave off yer beard/mustache and cut yer hair???


Nope. Still a mess, prolly always will be.


----------



## northmanlogging

I'm thinkin on getting all certed up for next years fire season, too late now (as always for me) maybe get in on the hazard/danger falling, or maybe an equipment jockey, turns out I'm not half bad at Cat skinning... who knew?


----------



## BeatCJ

Does that mean you're not half good, either?

Both are in pretty high demand, so if you have the ability, it could be a good way to work in the summer. A lot of the work is east, though, so you will need to get on th list in those dispatch centers, too. How far are you willing to travel?


----------



## Gologit

Lest we forget.....

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200811994659794&set=gm.1194385963910328&type=1&theater


----------



## northmanlogging

I would pretty much expect to head to the east side for fire work, though at first I'd prefer to stay local... more familiar ground and what not.


----------



## catbuster

northmanlogging said:


> I would pretty much expect to head to the east side for fire work, though at first I'd prefer to stay local... more familiar ground and what not.



Just a few thoughts... 

If you want the faller's certification, register to get in an S-212 class now, and expect it to be in the spring. And don't expect to come out a a Class I (formerly Class C) faller. And I'm not current on the requirements to be a Dozer op in Washington or with USFS/BLM, but CALFIRE requires that you hold a Class A driver's license to be a dozer operator. 

And when it come to familiar ground, it's honestly pretty much a wash. If you have a good crew boss he/she and a spotter can take care of you most of the time. You just have to keep your head up.


----------



## northmanlogging

Thanks, Though I can't see why a class A cdl has **** all to do with driving a Cat? Unless they expect you to drive the low boy too... which frankly is stupid...


----------



## catbuster

northmanlogging said:


> Thanks, Though I can't see why a class A cdl has **** all to do with driving a Cat? Unless they expect you to drive the low boy too... which frankly is stupid...



I've always had to drive truck too. It makes sense to mobilize the unit. You tie up fewer people just moving equipment so more people can actually do work. And their covering their butt saying that you have it so that if you do have an accident in a Cat they can say you were licensed to operate something that heavy on public land.


----------



## northmanlogging

From what I've heard of CalFire, making sense isn't part of their sop.


----------



## 2dogs

Down here hiring someone to transport your cat is expensive. They also will have to go through Cal Fire's preseason inspection, which is usually at a Cal Trans yard or sometimes at a Cal Fire dozer station which you will have to pay them to attend. Your dozer is inspected at the same time. There may be a requirement for your transport driver to take the annual safety training which you would also have to pay for plus a full day's pay.
Some of these questions may be answered on the CalDOG website.
http://www.californiadozeroperatorsgroup.org/


----------



## catbuster

Just a question I want to float out, how many of us have significant experience in structural-urban firefighting/rescue?


----------



## BeatCJ

Structural Rural, I have a significant amount. Why?


----------



## catbuster

BeatCJ said:


> Structural Rural, I have a significant amount. Why?



Just wondering how many people actually cross train. Most guys just stick to one particular type of fire.


----------



## BeatCJ

Almost all of our staff are cross trained. But, since we are a small rural department, we feel we have to. Our customers don't call and ask "Is there a wildland crew on today?" Just like they don't ask if we have an EMT available. They call on what is most likely one of the worst days of their lives, and want us to make it better. Most of the time, we do. Except when it's a neighbor calling in the neighbor next door's burn barrel. Then it's a split result, someone's day get's better, someone else, not so much. But, since Burn barrels became illegal in Washington 15 years ago, and burning garbage has been illegal since 1967, I suspect it's time for people to learn the rules. We try to educate customers, but if they are uncooperative, we just pass it on to the appropriate authorities. Luckily, we are not in charge of writing tickets.


----------



## madhatte

Just got back from the east side; turns out I was only needed for the training phase. We red-carded 320 National Guard over 4 days and I have to say I was impressed as hell by the Guard folks. If I was 21 years old, based on this week's experience, I'd be signing up right now.


----------



## BeatCJ

I've worked with the Guard before, generally pretty squared away. They were in camp last year at Carlton, to help with security in the local area.

I assume to get that many through, you did it the old fashioned way, classroom and a field day, as opposed to the new online class? I'm not at all impressed with the online learning tools. I think we may go back to traditional classroom in the future.


----------



## madhatte

BeatCJ said:


> I assume to get that many through, you did it the old fashioned way, classroom and a field day, as opposed to the new online class? I'm not at all impressed with the online learning tools. I think we may go back to traditional classroom in the future.



That is exactly correct, and I agree with you 100%.


----------



## RandyMac

Amador, yeehaww!!!


----------



## 2dogs

Randy are you going there?


----------



## RandyMac

Oh Hell no!
Let it burn, way past due, most of the Sierras needs burnt.
That urban/forest interface is a *****.
It is a Butte though, barreling right along, 50k in 48 hours, that would be something to watch.


----------



## M.R.

From a photographer in Baker City


----------



## slowp

One of the kids.

http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/26/thomas-nelson-zbyszewski1994-2015/


----------



## RandyMac

The Butte is at 65k, "containment" dropped from 15% to near zero, guessin' they had to back up.


----------



## madhatte

Hot damn, those numbers smell of contingency and desperation.


----------



## Gologit

We might not have much of a fire season _next_ year. There might not be much left to burn....

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1226

http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1221


----------



## LarryTheCableGuy

Gologit said:


> We might not have much of a fire season _next_ year. There might not be much left to burn....
> 
> http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1226
> 
> http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1221



My dad evacuated from Hidden Valley Lake yesterday - he said that there was a house on fire about 100 yards from his when he left. The power was out so he had to leave his garage door open.

He only had enough time to throw a few things in his motorhome and then was stuck in traffic on Highway 29 headed towards Lowerlake.

I have not heard yet if his house perished or not.


----------



## RandyMac

The Valley Fire, OMG it took a big chomp out of Middletown, got kin thereabouts.


----------



## madhatte

That's right where I brole down on the way back from the GTG last year. I remember looking at the scrub and thinking "this place is ripe for a fire".


----------



## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> That's right where I brole down on the way back from the GTG last year. I remember looking at the scrub and thinking "this place is ripe for a fire".


Well why didn't you tell somebody?!


----------



## madhatte

I was too busy figuring out how to get all the pieces in place. There was no internet until I was in my motel in Middleton (I think that was where it was anyway) and by then I had it under control. I always pretty much expect that every road trip is gonna come with a bit of chaos so this was a hassle and an expense but nothing to get too worked up over.


----------



## Gologit

We would have been glad to help you with your problems. Well, maybe not all of them...the lower digestive tract incident, you would have had to handle that all by yourself...but we could have given you a hand with the car stuff. We would have stayed up-wind from you but we would have helped. And we wouldn't have taken pictures or laughed. Much.


----------



## madhatte

Yeh, that trip was much funnier in hindsight than it was at the time.


----------



## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> Yeh, that trip was much funnier in hindsight than it was at the time.


Isn't that the way life is?


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Isn't that the way life is?


 
I sure hope so! I'd hate to know advance what the fun parts were gonna be!


----------



## Eccentric

madhatte said:


> I sure hope so! I'd hate to know advance what the fun parts were gonna be!




It would sometimes be helpful to know when the not-so-fun parts are gonna come. Helps a person plan ahead. Undergarment decisions, etc. Forward thinking.


----------



## madhatte

Imma just go ahead and Depends up from here on out.


----------



## northmanlogging

Go with a kilt, then the only thing to worry about is a strong gust of wind, or midgets.


----------



## Gologit

northmanlogging said:


> Go with a kilt, then the only thing to worry about is a strong gust of wind, or midgets.


 
Gotta disagree. If he starts sporting a kilt the rest of us have to look at his legs. I don't know if we're ready for that or not.


----------



## Joe46

Must say this thread took a strong left turn! Been gone for a few days so probably missed a few things. Still not sure how we got from fire to Nathan's legs????????


----------



## RandyMac

Nate would make a good Scotsman.

We had some rain, a puddle filler, a weak and probably short lived respite south of here.


----------



## madhatte

My legendary gams? How could we NOT end up there?


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> My legendary gams? How could we NOT end up there?


 Quite easily.


----------



## Joe46

Actually I was quite impressed. I don't believe we've had a good derail for some time now!


----------



## madhatte

This on-topic nonsense is for the birds!


----------



## northmanlogging

I could tell you some kilt stories... but then you would all have to call in sick tomorrow... many involve motorcycles, some involve bands, one wrestling incident, possibly an invitation to go swimming at a public lake...


----------



## Eccentric




----------



## northmanlogging

Turns out that fanny pack thing (sporran) is to keep you from inadvertently flashing yer plumbing at the ladies


----------



## catbuster

My only kilt story involves Edinburgh, about a half-meter of snow on the ground, a kilt and boots as my sole clothing and a snowplow. It was not pretty for my poor, hairy balls.

Oh, and many drinks of various stout beers, whiskies and cream liquors. Still probably one of the best evenings ever.


----------



## Squad_Boss

National Creek Fire
Crater Lake National Park
2015


----------



## Metals406

My fire season is done, CA looks like it's going to burn all winter.

Wonder what winter will do?

I've heard two forecasts on the fireline. Bad winter like 96-97 -- or another weak winter, early warm spring, and dry long summer.

We shall see.


----------



## catbuster

Metals406 said:


> My fire season is done, CA looks like it's going to burn all winter.
> 
> Wonder what winter will do?
> 
> I've heard two forecasts on the fireline. Bad winter like 96-97 -- or another weak winter, early warm spring, and dry long summer.
> 
> We shall see.



Neither is good, but I would be begging for snow.


----------



## RandyMac

Back in the '76/77 drought we were fighting fires from June '76 through Feb of '77, '78 was a good fire as well.
El Nino could be a flop.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Back in the '76/77 drought we were fighting fires from June '76 through Feb of '77, '78 was a good fire as well.
> El Nino could be a flop.



You coming up to Skamakowa next weekend? We'll be close enough to the river that you can throw rocks at the ships and make pirate noises.


----------



## atpchas

False color satellite photos of the Valley fire, taken 9/20/2015:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86663


----------



## atpchas

Effect of Santa Ana winds on SoCal fires:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86647

and

Dramatic drought presentation:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=86632


----------



## RandyMac

Drought? I gotta mow my lawn again.


----------



## Metals406

RandyMac said:


> Drought? I gotta mow my lawn again.


Yeah, but your lawn grows out of fear of retribution. [emoji12]


----------



## catbuster

I got promoted, to my dismay. I'm now the night tour Lt... Because the Catbuster Sr. is now our day chief. So much for just filling in for a few months while a guy went out west... [emoji53]

It *was* cool while it lasted, though. Driving the rig with dad on the other side, or being his senior man in the back was something I'll cherish for the remainder of my lifetime.


----------



## BeatCJ

Metals406 said:


> My fire season is done, CA looks like it's going to burn all winter.
> 
> Wonder what winter will do?
> 
> I've heard two forecasts on the fireline. Bad winter like 96-97 -- or another weak winter, early warm spring, and dry long summer.
> 
> We shall see.


I think we are done, too. I suspect we will get about our normal amount of precip, but it will be warmer than typical, leading to a very low snow pack in the PNW. Our fire season will depend on spring. 

In other words, for us, just like this year. I haven't heard anyone except The Old Farmer's Almanac call for a hard winter for us. Montana is enough farther east that the jet stream may dipping down through there. 

I'm not a betting man, but I think that California is going to get damp November through March. Snow pack may be an issue there, too, I haven't looked to see if they have a snow forecast yet.


----------



## Frank Savage

May I ask some of you guys, to give me a hint (maybe even a kick) where to find firefighting outlines, manuals, training handbooks etc.? Or even mail them? I can´t quite orientee myself in that little to none I can find. I´d like to educate myself as how you deal with fires over there. We have little to none, usualy very small, but when sth goes wrong, it´s f**ed up rough, broken terrain, things can get ugly realy fast there and the experience is abysmall overall... 
Not that we don´t get our share of lightning strikes, idiot smokers etc, but mostly there is a village every 2-5 miles and almost every has a volunteer fire crews and dept., with engines and all-so they are there pretty fast and not much of the forest gets burn. So quite little where to gain experience...


----------



## madhatte

Start here. These are the basic courses for introductory wildland firefighting, and cover fuels, terrain, equipment, tactics, weather, and all of the other stuff you need to know. Let it be said that they are no substitute for experience. I am not a fan of these online courses and would much rather go back to the old way of classroom teaching; at least that way the student can ask questions. Still, this will give you an idea where to start.


----------



## catbuster

And a few quick words of advice... Don't get caught in a chimney, and if you're anywhere near a fire, get to the downhill side. Otherwise, just avoid them as much as possible. [emoji6]


----------



## slowp

catbuster said:


> And a few quick words of advice... Don't get caught in a chimney, and if you're anywhere near a fire, get to the downhill side. Otherwise, just avoid them as much as possible. [emoji6]



Making generalizations about fires is not a good thing. Kind of like the discussions about falling amongst the inexperienced. Like trees, fire doesn't read the book--a twist of a gologit quote.


----------



## Metals406

Frank Savage said:


> May I ask some of you guys, to give me a hint (maybe even a kick) where to find firefighting outlines, manuals, training handbooks etc.? Or even mail them? I can´t quite orientee myself in that little to none I can find. I´d like to educate myself as how you deal with fires over there. We have little to none, usualy very small, but when sth goes wrong, it´s f**ed up rough, broken terrain, things can get ugly realy fast there and the experience is abysmall overall...
> Not that we don´t get our share of lightning strikes, idiot smokers etc, but mostly there is a village every 2-5 miles and almost every has a volunteer fire crews and dept., with engines and all-so they are there pretty fast and not much of the forest gets burn. So quite little where to gain experience...


If you really want the experience, fly over from Europe during our summer months and fight fire. You'd have to get hooked up with a contractor, but that's really not that hard. Lots of them even break in newbies.

There is no book, class, video, or training that can replace being out on the line.

Every fire is different, presenting it's own various challenges -- I have yet to say, "Oh, this one is just like the last one".

Different terrain, wind, atmospheric conditions, fuels, etc keep it all new and dangerous.

Best of luck. :0)


----------



## Frank Savage

Thank you, I think I have some brain food now 

Yep, being on the line would be best, but I´m afraid that this is not gonna happen soon...


----------



## catbuster

Metals406 said:


> Oh, this one is just like the last ."



Using that phrase could make the fire you use it on your last.


----------



## HuskStihl

catbuster said:


> Using that phrase could make the *fore* you use it on your last.


It's spelled "fahr"


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> Making generalizations about fires is not a good thing. Kind of like the discussions about falling amongst the inexperienced. Like trees, fire doesn't read the book--a twist of a gologit quote.



I heard it as "Fire will give you the lesson right after it gives you the test".


----------



## catbuster

I've been moved to an engine company as of late (hoses are disgusting... Way too much work, but that's a complaint for another day). But tonight I filled in back on the squad wagon. And it felt just like home... 

Well, here's to hoping I don't forget NIMS tomorrow when I teach large-scale disaster management tonight.... 







Forecasters are projecting warm and wet this winter, so what's normally peak wildfire season in Kentucky should be dampened quite a bit.


----------



## atpchas

Here's an interesting article about a new satellite that provides better resolution fire information. Check out the image comparison feature and the short video at the end.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=87111


----------



## madhatte

I notice that the article refers to resolution in meters. It's not clear whether that's square meters, or the square of that many meters. 1KM^2 is 3 orders of magnitude different than 1000 m^2I am curious about this specifically because only the largest fires on our ownership ever show up on MODIS, and they are typically on the order of 100-500 ac. I"m almost curious enough to call somebody at NASA and ask for advice.


----------



## atpchas

madhatte said:


> I notice that the article refers to resolution in meters. It's not clear whether that's square meters, or the square of that many meters. 1KM^2 is 3 orders of magnitude different than 1000 m^2I am curious about this specifically because only the largest fires on our ownership ever show up on MODIS, and they are typically on the order of 100-500 ac. I"m almost curious enough to call somebody at NASA and ask for advice.



I'm pretty sure the measurement is linear. Resolution is usually defined by close (a linear measure) two lines can be and still be distinguished as two lines, not one. I was curious about this:"The MODIS thermal band detects hot spots with a resolution of 1,000 meters per pixel; VIIRS detects hot spots at a resolution of 375 meters per pixel." versus "This is because MODIS has better resolution than VIIRS when looking at land surfaces that are not on fire. (250 meters per pixel for MODIS versus 375 meters per pixel for VIIRS)." 
I guess temperature degrades the MODIS resolution.


----------



## madhatte

Yeah, I figured; I work with a lot of LiDAR and resolution there is defined the same but the NASA language is not so clear.


----------



## Jacob J.

This is the same vendor contact sheet from last year for USFS- I haven't seen a new one in the system yet.


----------



## TBS

Pictures the Rough fire from beginning to end. California's largest fire in 2015. This fire was started by lightning and was initially contained on july 31 but during the night after the helitack crew left the fire rolling debris spread the fire past the containment line and grew to 151,623 acres.


----------



## Drptrch

Rough Fire above McKensie heli-pad










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Metals406

Jacob J. said:


> This is the same vendor contact sheet from last year for USFS- I haven't seen a new one in the system yet.


JJ, is the form good for any zone? Might forward this to someone in AZ.


----------



## Metals406

Drptrch said:


> Rough Fire above McKensie heli-pad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's cooking good.


----------



## 2dogs

I received my notification from Cal Fire regarding annual hired equipment vendor training. If you want to be a faller or any other contractor then this training is mandatory. fire.ca.gov


----------



## Michaelmj11

2dogs said:


> I received my notification from Cal Fire regarding annual hired equipment vendor training. If you want to be a faller or any other contractor then this training is mandatory. fire.ca.gov



I was in the process of doing a Google search about how to become involved in this sort of stuff, as an individual. Would you guys mind sharing more about it?


----------



## Metals406

Michaelmj11 said:


> I was in the process of doing a Google search about how to become involved in this sort of stuff, as an individual. Would you guys mind sharing more about it?


Contact a local contractor (lists are online, usually .pdf). You can also work for a state or fed office as a seasonal employee. 

Some are willing to train, other occupations on fires require 'civilian' experience. 

You can also get more info by contacting your local USFS office.


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> I received my notification from Cal Fire regarding annual hired equipment vendor training. If you want to be a faller or any other contractor then this training is mandatory. fire.ca.gov



Yippy cay yay. Kind of glad I'm not contracting with Cal Fire this year. Last year I co-opped to send two dozers/tenders and six guys out there. It was a lot less profitable than I expected for as much work as they had.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> I received my notification from Cal Fire regarding annual hired equipment vendor training. If you want to be a faller or any other contractor then this training is mandatory. fire.ca.gov



I took my class today at College of The Redwoods. Basically it was the same old stuff as last year but the donuts, cookies, and coffee kept everybody awake.
The fire shelter test was fun. We had a choice of doing it on the classroom floor or outside on the wet grass. We chose the grass. Somebody should have made a video of that. They timed us this year so there was lots of hurrying, slipping, sliding, falling down, and dripping wet shelters by the time we got through. I don't think they'll let us do that again.


----------



## Gologit

Comments?

http://www.gq.com/long-form/no-exit


----------



## TBS

Underestimated the speed of the fire and distance to the ranch, they left good black that wasn't going to reburn, and their escape route took them through unburned fuel at the point they headed down the drainage to the ranch. Loss of situational awareness.


----------



## RiverRat2

Gologit said:


> Comments?
> 
> http://www.gq.com/long-form/no-exit


I got one answer your phone Bob


----------



## Gologit

RiverRat2 said:


> I got one answer your phone Bob




 I'll send ya a PM.


----------



## catbuster

They ****ed up. Plane and simple. I wasn't there, so I can't make an über-good judgement, but everything I know about Yarnel makes me think:

-They went the wrong way into heavy fuel with a fast moving fire.
-People make mistakes, and some of them lead to us losing people. This was one of them. 
-Their spotter probably set his trigger point too close to the crew for the conditions, and the bug out went the wrong way. 
-They made an error in judgement of distance. 

The article makes it seem like those guys were too confident for their own good and got themselves into a jam they couldn't get out because of it. That may be true.

However, it's marked on our PPE that "firefighting is an inherently dangerous activity and this helmet cannot guarantee you safety." That is gospel. Safety starts with us. The problem is that we're human, and we aren't perfect and are effected by emotion. So people will continue to die on this job as long as we want to do it agressively and effectively. It's saddening, but the truth if this job.


----------



## Drptrch

Weather played a BIG role in Yarnell, T-storm micro bursts. Crazy things

The link below is from the Beaver Fire 2014 on Klamath NF, Calif

I was there and watched this sleepy thing take off after a T-Cell moved across the fire.

I was a responding Medic w/ Branch Director to an area below and to the left, we were unable to access due to the fire front. Help came in from above.

I drove them to their Med check at local hospital, with only minor issues, a very humbling experience and I'll leave it at that.. Be safe out there.

Sincerely , Erik


----------



## Gypo Logger

The snow is gone, so may be record wild fire this summer.
If I lose contact, I'll be in the Ugly Tree and when I fall I will hit every branch on the way down.


----------



## catbuster

Probably flying out to the Kansas Oklahoma border with a ruck of gear tomorrow... Cats with plows will be waiting upon arrival. Could be interesting.


----------



## Agent Orange

catbuster said:


> Probably flying out to the Kansas Oklahoma border with a ruck of gear tomorrow... Cats with plows will be waiting upon arrival. Could be interesting.


I'm not close to the border, but if you get in a pinch for ANYTHING, give me a shout. We have truck drivers that deliver down there or I'll drive there myself and get it to you and your crew.


----------



## Drptrch

catbuster said:


> Probably flying out to the Kansas Oklahoma border with a ruck of gear tomorrow... Cats with plows will be waiting upon arrival. Could be interesting.



1800 hrs last August on the CA-Sequoia NF


----------



## Gypo Logger

Anyone see a face in this pic?


----------



## catbuster

Drptrch said:


> 1800 hrs last August on the CA-Sequoia NF




We're taking D6s and attaching 4-bottom moulboard plows to them. They'll have standard blades, but we should be able to pull a moulboard plow at top speed and cut a 6' line at ~7 MPH. I might be in charge of them, or I might be in one. Not sure yet. I will when I arrive.

My other probable assignment will be to be an engine boss on a type 1 around the chemical plants since I'm a haz-mat tech and they seem to be in short supply on the crews in that area. 

Like I said, I won't be sure until I arrive. But with these winds they're talking about and how dry it is in that area, this thing can blow up on us really fast. Oh well. We'll see how it goes.



Agent Orange said:


> I'm not close to the border, but if you get in a pinch for ANYTHING, give me a shout. We have truck drivers that deliver down there or I'll drive there myself and get it to you and your crew.



I appreciate it, man. There are two big ass fires and I know the locals are overwhelmed, or they wouldn't be calling my group from Texas.


----------



## Agent Orange

catbuster said:


> We're taking D6s and attaching 4-bottom moulboard plows to them. They'll have standard blades, but we should be able to pull a moulboard plow at top speed and cut a 6' line at ~7 MPH. I might be in charge of them, or I might be in one. Not sure yet. I will when I arrive.
> 
> My other probable assignment will be to be an engine boss on a type 1 around the chemical plants since I'm a haz-mat tech and they seem to be in short supply on the crews in that area.
> 
> Like I said, I won't be sure until I arrive. But with these winds they're talking about and how dry it is in that area, this thing can blow up on us really fast. Oh well. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate it, man. There are two big ass fires and I know the locals are overwhelmed, or they wouldn't be calling my group from Texas.


It's everywhere right now, burning fields have gotten out of hand here, nothing in comparison to the border fire though. It's been beyond dry and spring winds are no help. I have a good friend in Wichita that runs the States biggest dirt work company on the equipment side if you need anything a little closer that way he may be able to help with contacts etc. ( I don't want to speak for him, but I'm willing to ask if need be )
Stay safe, you and the rest of the brave souls.


----------



## 2dogs

Looking at the wind maps and red flag warning map it looks like Kansas should be renamed Hell!


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> Looking at the wind maps and red flag warning map it looks like Kansas should be renamed Hell!



We got some rain yesterday which helped tremenndously-these being grass fires, but the winds are hitting 50 consistently and it's moving so fast we've had to leave the cats and tractors with plows at anchor points because it's moving faster than we can keep up with it across the flat grasslands.

This is hell. I'd rather be working in the PNW in the forest.


----------



## Metals406

Yucky plains fires, you boys keep yer heads on a swivel.


----------



## catbuster

There are oilfield water haulers hauling water out here now. I think most of the fires in Kansas are about licked.

Edit: I'm now headed south to Oklahoma. Yippee.


----------



## Metals406

catbuster said:


> There are oilfield water haulers hauling water out here now. I think most of the fires in Kansas are about licked.
> 
> Edit: I'm now headed south to Oklahoma. Yippee.


We have a fire in the Bob Marshall Wilderness already. There should be 4 foot of snow up there still. . . I guess not.


----------



## madhatte

Saw that. Bodes ill for the wet June I'm hoping for.


----------



## Scablands

madhatte said:


> Saw that. Bodes ill for the wet June I'm hoping for.


These last two weeks have been a snow pack killer. E WA basins are down to 80% of normal after getting up to 95% or so of normal. Looks like office fatsos like me will need to learn to dig firelines this year.


----------



## catbuster

Finally!

Staggering Storm Totals Forecast in Heartland
https://www.weather.com/storms/severe/video/severe-storms-moving-into-the-rockies?pl=pl-the-lift


----------



## TBS

Thoughts and prayers to my northern brothers and sisters. Stay safe out there.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...rray-as-evacuees-settle-in-edmonton-1.3565573


----------



## Scablands

Nathan lassley said:


> Thoughts and prayers to my northern brothers and sisters. Stay safe out there.
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...rray-as-evacuees-settle-in-edmonton-1.3565573



Indeed. I think no one has been hurt so far, and I hope it stays that way. We were watching video of the fire while people were evacuating on the highway tonight. Scary stuff.


----------



## Metals406

Canada's fire season is epicly bad so far.


----------



## catbuster

Those look really, really bad. And from what I heard on NPR this morning it sounds like the Canadians are really overwhelmed and not equipped to handle this type of a season. 

I hope they can just get them out without anyone getting hurt.


----------



## Scablands

catbuster said:


> Those look really, really bad. And from what I heard on NPR this morning it sounds like the Canadians are really overwhelmed and not equipped to handle this type of a season.
> 
> I hope they can just get them out without anyone getting hurt.



Anyone know if the US air tankers are able divert up north for a bit? The tankers show up in CDA around July typically.


----------



## catbuster

Scablands said:


> Anyone know if the US air tankers are able divert up north for a bit? The tankers show up in CDA around July typically.



I think we could send military stuff up there because of the politics of NATO. I'm licensed to operate in Canada and I might make a few calls to see if I could get a crew to fly up and help out.


----------



## Drptrch

MAFFS military planes are training for fires in Nevada now. 
Only a couple on line now, one is in Tennessee working, came from there to South Dakota then called back to Tn


----------



## Drptrch

http://fireaviation.com/2016/03/02/large-air-tanker-lineup-for-2016/


----------



## northmanlogging

Wa DNR is predicting a "less sever" season for us this year... I'm not holding my breath, still need to finish up my fire tank... not paranoid at all...

last I heard they were evacuating another 50 miles outside fort Mac... something like 90,000 folks homeless overnight.


----------



## Metals406

northmanlogging said:


> Wa DNR is predicting a "less sever" season for us this year... I'm not holding my breath, still need to finish up my fire tank... not paranoid at all...
> 
> last I heard they were evacuating another 50 miles outside fort Mac... something like 90,000 folks homeless overnight.


Catastrophic


----------



## Scablands

northmanlogging said:


> Wa DNR is predicting a "less sever" season for us this year... I'm not holding my breath, still need to finish up my fire tank... not paranoid at all...



Maybe that prediction was true 60 days ago. Today? Not so sure.


----------



## madhatte

Yeaaaah, gonna go ahead and brace for a long hot one. Seems the only reasonable thing to do.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Wow! The public donated 11 million so far in the last two days and the gov will match that. Sounds like 4.1 Billion damage so far. The Americans have offered their help to us as good neighbours do, so we thank you for that. We are all in this together.Americans, like Canadians, have hearts bigger than the great outdoors.
Sounds like Mother Nature is really putting Her foot down.
I wonder what Neil Young has to say? We don't want him around anyhow! Sweet Home Alabama.
John


----------



## Gypo Logger

Ok, I just counted the contents of my wallet, 400 exactly to my name. 150 for internet, cell phone and TV, so that leaves 250 dolla. Sounds like I'm flush, so I think I'll donate 50 dolla. Fifty dolla, make you holla!
It shouldn't cost as much to make the world go round as it does.


----------



## atpchas

The web page linked below shows the abnormally high temps in the vicinity of the Ft McMurray fire and a satellite picture of the area on May 4.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=87992


----------



## northmanlogging

Can't find a decent link.

But there is a 100 acre and growing fire in Oso started yesterday and is on steep ground so things could get shitty quickly, King5.com has some photos but not linkable by the likes of me. 

Hasn't been any interesting weather around here for some time so not sure as the cause.


----------



## Drptrch

In Oso - Arlington ??

WA-NDC??? OSO area fire http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/showthread.php?t=51932

https://thenwfireblog.com/2016/05/13/update-3-hot-shot-fire-wa-dnr-near-oso-washington/


----------



## Woos31

It's too Damn early in nuh year to be talkin fires! I've been a shitty neighbor and not followed the fire/fires around fort Mac country but north or south I hate seeing people being displaced and losing everything like that. Again don't know the latest but I hope ma nature has began to cooperate with those folks and the resources fighting fire. Prayers to fort Mac and fire fighters from Central Oregon


----------



## Woos31

I feel like the neighbor looking over the fence at the other neighbor who's staring at a pile of lumber and tin.............. and can't help it........... Huh, your shed fall down?


----------



## northmanlogging

Drptrch said:


> In Oso - Arlington ??
> 
> WA-NDC??? OSO area fire http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/showthread.php?t=51932
> 
> https://thenwfireblog.com/2016/05/13/update-3-hot-shot-fire-wa-dnr-near-oso-washington/



SOB its a timber sale... and I probably know the poor bastards working it...


----------



## Scablands

I've been anxious about this year's fire season since - well- last year's fire season. Looks like this is the new normal. It is getting bone dry here already.


----------



## Drptrch

A near real time " Wildland Fire Forum"
On Tapatalk App or Web based avail to all or register to comment and post

On the web "Hotlist" has active fire chat , on the app " Fires by region"

Good luck and stay safe


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> A near real time " Wildland Fire Forum"
> On Tapatalk App or Web based avail to all or register to comment and post
> 
> On the web "Hotlist" has active fire chat , on the app " Fires by region"
> 
> Good luck and stay safe





I thought I recognized your username over there.


----------



## madhatte

We had our first this week, in broom, slash, snags, etc. No crew yet so this was a 100% dozer show. I guess we have a new road.


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> I thought I recognized your username over there.


Yes Sir, Likewise [emoji106]


----------



## TBS

Got another one near Gold Bar.

WA-NDC-Proctor creek is 150 acres.
https://thenwfireblog.com/2016/05/13/update-5-proctor-creek-aka-goldbarfire-wa-dnr-washington-state/


----------



## northmanlogging

That means both sides of me... Its not even June yet wtf...


----------



## TBS

I'm surprised we haven't had much fire activity in central California of course when summer hits that will change. We have a cabin in meadow lakes california we dodged a lot of bullets last summer, 5 fires over fifty acres the corrine fire that went for 1000, two of them I watched from work one was the corrine fire calfire used one of our boat launch parking lots for a helibase. All of the fires were near or within the 1989 powerhouse fire with one nearly exact same point of origin.


----------



## Gypo Logger

I was just thinking about the Fort Mcmurray fire and it just represents a drop in the bucket of the mismanaged resource we have here. In fact, we have so many trees, nobody seems to know what to do with them.
Studies, and more studies about the displaced wildlife.
Not trying to be insensitive to those that were displaced in the fire, but why would anybody want to live in Fort Mc****up?
Never mind, we always look after one another regardless.
Loved that Raptors game this afternoon.


----------



## TBS

Fort McMurray fire now 1,046,255 acres or 423,000 hectares. We broke our first major fire of the season in California near camp roberts that has gone for 1,500 acres but fire crews are making good progress toward containment.


----------



## madhatte

3 fires here today in grass, broom, and slash, totaling about 20 acres. It rained. It's May. We don't have a crew yet. It's dark. I'm wearing sunglasses. *hit it*


----------



## catbuster

I'm in Mc****Up ATM. We need help. Not much in terms of private crews out here...


----------



## Scablands

catbuster said:


> I'm in Mc****Up ATM. We need help. Not much in terms of private crews out here...


I was hoping the rains would settle things down up there. I thought some crews from MT were headed up there to help as well as a couple air tankers. Or is that not nearly enough?


----------



## Metals406

Only a handful of MT help, mostly smoke jumpers I hear.


----------



## catbuster

Scablands said:


> I was hoping the rains would settle things down up there. I thought some crews from MT were headed up there to help as well as a couple air tankers. Or is that not nearly enough?



I think there are two or three up here, and a couple of air tankers. But it's at close to 1.3m acres burned as of this morning. The roads are shot, and the burned area is so big that it's just a PITA to traverse, plus with this being grassland/scrub/short boreal forest the fires run hard and fast. And the rain we've had has mostly been showers, nothing really soaking.

Couple that with it being in the middle of the tar sands fields and we're running into haz-mat and chemical fires rarely seen in most wildland situations which the locals can handle being structure trained but it also makes them want to try to knock it down with engines from the black... But like I said, the roads are shot, and 50,000 lb type 1 triple combo engines and 75,000lb quints don't like crappy roads. They also don't pump and roll.

We really need about three dozen D9s with qualified wildland operators, but you know how hard those are to come by.


----------



## catbuster

Metals406 said:


> Only a handful of MT help, mostly smoke jumpers I hear.



I like smoke jumpers, and any help we can get up here, but yeah, we need other help. 

On the plus side, it's cooler than working in the western U.S... But the forecast is up in the 80s over the weekend and into next week.


----------



## Metals406

catbuster said:


> I like smoke jumpers, and any help we can get up here, but yeah, we need other help.
> 
> On the plus side, it's cooler than working in the western U.S... But the forecast is up in the 80s over the weekend and into next week.


Yup, near 90 here by Friday. Be safe! This high pressure will most definitely make burning worse up north there.


----------



## Metals406

Y'all are only 760 north of me, bout like driving to Seattle from here. Not real close, but not too far.


----------



## northmanlogging

Stoopid question time...

IF, and I mean IF... a guy where to hook up a hose and adapta-kit to a hydrant and "test" his "new" equipment, how much, if any, trouble would he be in?

Secondly, if a fire where to break out near his house, and he where to use said new equipment on said fire, how much trouble would he be en then...

Granted I'm aware that if I where to start putting fires out in the neighbor hood, it would look an awful lot like maybe I wanted really bad to put out a fire so that I arranged for one to be started, but I'm not that crazy, I'm just really paranoid about fire...

Ideally I'll have the skid mount fire tank on hand here at the house for July 1-15th, and using the handy hydrant across the street won't be necessary. but if it where?

Before ya all freak out about fire hose and pressure and what not, I have had some very basic but professional instruction, on how to use a hydrant and hose, its not rocket science, its just high pressure water... nearly rocket science... and yes I would totally call 911 first, and it would be purely a control and damage prevention strategy... one moron and one hose does not extinguish a house fire, but it might keep it from spreading long enough for the cavalry to ride in. 

I ask because I've heard all sorts of misinformation, not from any reliable sources, also I assume all risks if I'm dumb enough to try this. And no this isn't about stealing water... its a ****ing rain forest there is plenty of water, and the well hasn't gone dry ever... so no worries there.


----------



## catbuster

northmanlogging said:


> Stoopid question time...
> 
> IF, and I mean IF... a guy where to hook up a hose and adapta-kit to a hydrant and "test" his "new" equipment, how much, if any, trouble would he be in?
> 
> Secondly, if a fire where to break out near his house, and he where to use said new equipment on said fire, how much trouble would he be en then...
> 
> Granted I'm aware that if I where to start putting fires out in the neighbor hood, it would look an awful lot like maybe I wanted really bad to put out a fire so that I arranged for one to be started, but I'm not that crazy, I'm just really paranoid about fire...
> 
> Ideally I'll have the skid mount fire tank on hand here at the house for July 1-15th, and using the handy hydrant across the street won't be necessary. but if it where?
> 
> Before ya all freak out about fire hose and pressure and what not, I have had some very basic but professional instruction, on how to use a hydrant and hose, its not rocket science, its just high pressure water... nearly rocket science... and yes I would totally call 911 first, and it would be purely a control and damage prevention strategy... one moron and one hose does not extinguish a house fire, but it might keep it from spreading long enough for the cavalry to ride in.
> 
> I ask because I've heard all sorts of misinformation, not from any reliable sources, also I assume all risks if I'm dumb enough to try this. And no this isn't about stealing water... its a ****ing rain forest there is plenty of water, and the well hasn't gone dry ever... so no worries there.



In all the districts I've ever worked in a position where I had to give a **** about them, and all the ones I've installed and worked on over my time in the two trades, it is not legal for any private entity other than contracted fire crews to use fire hydrants. The penalty if caught by someone who cared was a warning, then $500 fine for the second offense, followed by larger fines, and they can be given out by the acting company commander of a single resource (engine boss, truck Lt./Captain.) It is not a felony in my area. It's not like we have our engine crews out patrolling either. It's pretty rare to see it heavily enforced unless there's a severe drought. I'll usually just ask people to stop. And most of the time people do.

Something else to consider is if the hydrant is private instead of public. You can get charged with theft on a private hydrant. And there's usually nothing to differentiate public and private hydrants. 

However... If you're putting out a fire with your rig supplied by water from a public hydrant, chances are it'll get labelled good samaritan and no one will care. You may get a bill if you use a private hydrant. 

One last thing about house fires... Chances are, one untrained man with a skid unit and no proper PPE with modern construction and fire loads is looking to killed by any multitude of ways in a hurry. There's a technique called SLICE-RS (a structural tactic developed for 3 man engine crews on buildings <1500 square feet per floor max 3 floors) that I suggest looking into if you're dead set on trying yourself, but just please don't. Just wait.


----------



## Gologit

The local FD will probably be able to answer your question.

If it was my house and I had the equipment right there I'd hook up and go for it. To hell with waiting.


----------



## northmanlogging

catbuster said:


> In all the districts I've ever worked in a position where I had to give a **** about them, and all the ones I've installed and worked on over my time in the two trades, it is not legal for any private entity other than contracted fire crews to use fire hydrants. The penalty if caught by someone who cared was a warning, then $500 fine for the second offense, followed by larger fines, and they can be given out by the acting company commander of a single resource (engine boss, truck Lt./Captain.) It is not a felony in my area. It's not like we have our engine crews out patrolling either. It's pretty rare to see it heavily enforced unless there's a severe drought. I'll usually just ask people to stop. And most of the time people do.
> 
> Something else to consider is if the hydrant is private instead of public. You can get charged with theft on a private hydrant. And there's usually nothing to differentiate public and private hydrants.
> 
> However... If you're putting out a fire with your rig supplied by water from a public hydrant, chances are it'll get labelled good samaritan and no one will care. You may get a bill if you use a private hydrant.
> 
> One last thing about house fires... Chances are, one untrained man with a skid unit and no proper PPE with modern construction and fire loads is looking to killed by any multitude of ways in a hurry. There's a technique called SLICE-RS (a structural tactic developed for 3 man engine crews on buildings <1500 square feet per floor max 3 floors) that I suggest looking into if you're dead set on trying yourself, but just please don't. Just wait.



What little training I have had, was mostly the only mess with small fires, and only if help was a long ways away, stay up wind if possible, and don't be a hero and go in to a burning structure, I'm not a fire fighter and don't pretend to be, though I've considered volunteering, or getting wildland certs, I don't have the spare time to make it work.

Mostly what my skid mount is going to be for is hanging out on logging sites and hoping I don't have to use it. Things have been very dry the last few years. And with luck I'll have it ready before fire works season starts, people in this neighbor hood haven't got a clue what kind of mess they would be in, so they just buy truck loads of aerial stuff, morters, rockets, roman candles, then get super drunk and let the children go nuts. Which don't get me wrong I like a good explosion, but when it hasn't rained in 40 days...

Though I really can't stop thinking about testing... and I know I should stop...

I'm with Bob though, if there is a fire and I can do something about it, and not get killed, there going to have a Hel of a time stopping me. Just in my nature.


----------



## madhatte

I got nuked by poison-oak bossing a dozer on a fire a few days ago; if you have me on FB you've already seen the pics. Not the best start to a fire season, but there is a change that I'm excited about: the Overhead who slowed things where I work just retired. Things are looking up!


----------



## TBS

We've got another one here in the southern Sierra Nevada called the Chimney fire

It went from this big....






To this big in two hours.


----------



## TBS

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/52220-CA-CND-SQF-CHIMNEY?p=206922#post206922


----------



## madhatte

Dang, that's impressive growth. Here's hoping the rest of the season doesn't go that way.


----------



## TBS

Today the fire is pretty calm, calfire and the fed aircraft got an early start today and they had some very well placed drops that took the heat out of the head before nightfall yesterday. Ground crews also have made good progress considering how rough the area is.


----------



## Gologit

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/info/newsroom/2016/june/chimneyfireupdate.html


----------



## catbuster

That's incredible spread for two hours... Geez. I'll echo Hat and say that I really hope the rest of this year does not follow that pattern.


----------



## madhatte

Good use of air resources. It's too easy to do an airshow to keep the public happy but forget that it only buys time to do something else. No plan = waste. Taking advantage of the break is how to do it.


----------



## Metals406

I love air support!


----------



## Scablands

I'll make a prediction to my detriment: Just drove across the Idaho panhandle, and if anything is going to explode it's right around Kellogg. The amount of fresh beetle kill there is shocking. It won't take much...


----------



## Metals406

Scablands said:


> I'll make a prediction to my detriment: Just drove across the Idaho panhandle, and if anything is going to explode it's right around Kellogg. The amount of fresh beetle kill there is shocking. It won't take much...


I was there 16 days last year, just heard there's a 50 acre one on the snake, near Givens Hot Springs.


----------



## catbuster

I worked overnight in a D7R last night... And about an hour in working alone my mind wandered into things more phillsophical than needed, like how cool the internet is, and mathematically and scientifically proving/disproving the existence of god, among other things. Just B.S to stay awake.

And then I got to this: Why the hell did Cat update the D7 to their electric low drive piece of **** offering? It absolutely blows me away. They were really the perfect machine for fire use, or use in the woods in general. They have enough horsepower and weight to do everything we need to do, that a 6 can't while being nearly as nimble, but aren't as heavy and whide as an 8 where the machine has to be broken down for transport and I have to worry about the machine sinking everywhere I go that isn't a hard surface.

Oh well. I'm heading back to the black Friday. I think the guys in Alberta are just going to let the thing burn all summer and make little stabs at it now and try to put a full knock down on it in the fall and early winter when the weather is better.


----------



## Woos31

northmanlogging said:


> Stoopid question time...
> 
> IF, and I mean IF... a guy where to hook up a hose and adapta-kit to a hydrant and "test" his "new" equipment, how much, if any, trouble would he be in?
> 
> Secondly, if a fire where to break out near his house, and he where to use said new equipment on said fire, how much trouble would he be en then...
> 
> Granted I'm aware that if I where to start putting fires out in the neighbor hood, it would look an awful lot like maybe I wanted really bad to put out a fire so that I arranged for one to be started, but I'm not that crazy, I'm just really paranoid about fire...
> 
> Ideally I'll have the skid mount fire tank on hand here at the house for July 1-15th, and using the handy hydrant across the street won't be necessary. but if it where?
> 
> Before ya all freak out about fire hose and pressure and what not, I have had some very basic but professional instruction, on how to use a hydrant and hose, its not rocket science, its just high pressure water... nearly rocket science... and yes I would totally call 911 first, and it would be purely a control and damage prevention strategy... one moron and one hose does not extinguish a house fire, but it might keep it from spreading long enough for the cavalry to ride in.
> 
> I ask because I've heard all sorts of misinformation, not from any reliable sources, also I assume all risks if I'm dumb enough to try this. And no this isn't about stealing water... its a ****ing rain forest there is plenty of water, and the well hasn't gone dry ever... so no worries there.


I vote ta hell with em and good on ya for being ready and willin to help.


----------



## Woos31

Central Oregon got our first big one from lighnting yesterday also


----------



## TBS

We had one to the north of us in jerseydale ca that could have got big was kept to 50 acres in bettle killed timber. The Pony fire on the Klamath national forest is about 1000 acres and will probably get much bigger.
Yarnell Arizona is burning again, currently under evacuation order due to the 300 acre tenderfoot fire. I would like when people started calling hotshots elite firefighters? 
The fire in jerseydale was the 4 in a week in that area all escaped residential burns, people need to stop burning when the f_€£ing grass is dry, this has 20 times in the last month and had on the property behind our cabin at the mouth of the drainage that runs up the west side of our 20 acres. A 70 foot deep drainage full of dead and down trees is like a huge flame thrower waiting to be lit luckily we have a huge 400 ft fire clearance on that side and over 100 ft on the rest with lot of fire breaks.


----------



## Jacob J.

If any of you guys are signing up in R-6 as fallers, here is a link to the updated information-

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r6/workingtogether/contracting/?cid=fsbdev2_027111


----------



## TBS

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/52767-CA-KRN-CND-Erskine?p=209456#post209456

This is a very serious incident going on right now 1500 homes evacuated with immediate life threat because people can't get out of the area fast enough. The fire moved 15 miles in two hours and is not slowing down. Well over 3,000 acres since 4pm.

http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/18618/web

http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin...e=160602&camera=breckenridge_3&lastFrame=true

http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/camHist_movie.pl?date=160602&camera=tobias_peak_1&lastFrame=true


----------



## TBS




----------



## madhatte

Holy crap, Type 1 in less than 12 hours? That's incredible.


----------



## TBS

This thing is still ripping right along.


----------



## TBS

16,000 acres now.


----------



## Gologit

http://www.ksbw.com/news/66-million-dead-trees-contribute-to-fire-hazard-in-california/40213028


----------



## Scablands




----------



## atpchas

Erskine Fire, California - from the NASA Earth Observatory site:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88278


----------



## madhatte

Holy freakin' wow!


----------



## catbuster

Wow. That's a scene that puts very eloquent men at a loss for words. And that photo probably doesn't do that fire justice.


----------



## atpchas

Sherpa Fire, near Santa Barbara California - from the NASA Earth Observatory site:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88267

from the same site but not so close to home:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88284
and
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88308


----------



## madhatte

Man, SoCal is getting hammered.


----------



## atpchas

madhatte said:


> Man, SoCal is getting hammered.


They got so little rain this past winter composed to NorCal (and we didn't get as much as we really needed), I hate to think what the late summer and early fall will bring, especially when the Santa Ana winds act like a bellows to a furnace.


----------



## madhatte

That's a fair worry. I guess all we can do is wait and see.


----------



## TBS

A few video clips of a stark scary reality we are facing hear in the central and southern Sierra.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/catreemortality/toolkit/?cid=fseprd500165


----------



## TBS

So what can happen when you run a mower in dry besides hitting rock and starting a fire? It could possibly leak gas and go poof like the one in the center of the bottom picture shrouded by smoke.


----------



## TBS

Pinery fire Australia! Holy S:;/!!!


----------



## Metals406

Who trained them to drive into no-visibility, and unburnt fuel?

Dumb.


----------



## atpchas

More from the NASA Earth Observatory site. First, bark beetle caused tree loss in the Sierra Nevada mountains:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88381

Then, so our eastern friends don't feel left out, gypsy moth caterpillar damage in Rhode Island. Check out the picture at the bottom of the page. The trees will survive unless this happens for several years in a row.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88370


----------



## Metals406

atpchas said:


> More from the NASA Earth Observatory site. First, bark beetle caused tree loss in the Sierra Nevada mountains:
> http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88381
> 
> Then, so our eastern friends don't feel left out, gypsy moth caterpillar damage in Rhode Island. Check out the picture at the bottom of the page. The trees will survive unless this happens for several years in a row.
> http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88370


With defoliation, I think the rule of thumb is, if they survive 3 seasons they'll most likely survive.


----------



## atpchas

Metals406 said:


> With defoliation, I think the rule of thumb is, if they survive 3 seasons they'll most likely survive.



I hope you're right. I was noting info from this part of the article:
"The ecological consequences of gypsy moth outbreaks are often cosmetic, but they can become serious. Deciduous trees can normally withstand one or two years of defoliation by caterpillars, but three or more successive years of severe defoliation can result in widespread tree mortality. “Though weak or sick trees could succumb, we are not worried about significant tree mortality yet,” said Ricard."


----------



## madhatte

I'm teaching my first full S-212 Wildland Fire Chainsaw Operations this week. Monday was classroom/shop, Tuesday first field day, Wednesday looks to be second field day to finish leaving the stand as required. I'm awaiting approval from higher up to be ICT4 so I can't sign off the certificates yet but I did all the hard work. The ICT4 red card should be board approved in the next few weeks. Gonna try to teach S-130 Pump Operations next week. Finally have support for training and you best believe I'm gonna jump on that opportunity!


----------



## madhatte

Update: everybody passed, and there's still a mess to clean up. Paperwork never ends. Fire season is afoot.


----------



## Drptrch

Calif multiple starts today. 2000acres moving off Camp Pendelton today. Stay safe. Long season


----------



## Drptrch

Start in LA moved quickly into Angeles NF 3000 acres in 4 hrs

http://ktla.com/2016/07/22/20-acre-fire-burns-near-sand-canyon-in-santa-clarita/

106 F. 5% RH. W 15 mph

This thing is ripping,


----------



## catbuster

Drptrch said:


> Start in LA moved quickly into Angeles NF 3000 acres in 4 hrs
> 
> http://ktla.com/2016/07/22/20-acre-fire-burns-near-sand-canyon-in-santa-clarita/
> 
> 106 F. 5% RH. W 15 mph
> 
> This thing is ripping,



Just looked at the forecast-High of 110 with winds 20-30 MPH and RH forecasted tomorrow. That fire looks like it could get big really quickly.


----------



## Drptrch

If anyone is board on a Friday night ... Live audio feed w/ air traffic

http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/22364/web


----------



## Drptrch

Station Fire scar 2009 is to the SE

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/photos/CAANF/2009-08-27-00:53-station/related_files/ftp-20090922-092934.pdf


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


> Station Fire scar 2009 is to the SE
> 
> http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/photos/CAANF/2009-08-27-00:53-station/related_files/ftp-20090922-092934.pdf


Be safe out there on the lines


----------



## Drptrch

Woos31 said:


> Be safe out there on the lines



Will do !! Thank you

Central and SoCal hit hard today


----------



## Drptrch

Woos31 said:


> Be safe out there on the lines



Always [emoji16][emoji16]


----------



## Drptrch

@catbuster A little bed time Iron for ya














And an impromptu lesson



these are Bad-Ass [emoji13]


----------



## catbuster

Drptrch said:


> @catbuster A little bed time Iron for ya
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And an impromptu lesson
> 
> 
> 
> these are Bad-Ass [emoji13]



If you guys added a couple excavators you could finally catch up to the amount of iron I've got on my two sites right now.

Seriously though, it's been really quiet, and really wet in the east lately. We haven't had any calls to assist any agencies yet.


----------



## Drptrch




----------



## catbuster

Serious question though, is there a reason you guys are using such small cats out there? I usually take one of my D8s to fires. I'd be scared to take a smaller dozer. But, it's not rare for me (or one of my employees) to be the only iron on scene for quite a while.


----------



## madhatte

Small cats are narrow cats. They fit into smaller spaces, and can fit on transporter trucks smaller than lowboys. Faster turnaround, lower ecological impact. Keeps the hippies happier.


----------



## madhatte

Also I had a Gradall push over a burning tree the other day; have to remember that I can do that. It's not in the book.


----------



## catbuster

madhatte said:


> Small cats are narrow cats. They fit into smaller spaces, and can fit on transporter trucks smaller than lowboys. Faster turnaround, lower ecological impact. Keeps the hippies happier.



Makes sense. I usually just thrown an oversize load sign and some amber flashers on the lowboy, tilt the angle blade as far as it'll go and people just seem to get the hell out of the way

But **** man, I even used D7/8s on the Ft. Mac fire this spring. There's a level of speed a 5 or 6 just can't match in comparison to the heavier machine with more horsepower.


----------



## catbuster

madhatte said:


> Also I had a Gradall push over a burning tree the other day; have to remember that I can do that. It's not in the book.



It's not, and the Gradall style machines are probably nice to have... They're pretty mobile in comparison to the big tracked machines. But I'm always good with a piece of the big yellow stuff make my day easier... Ha


----------



## Drptrch

catbuster said:


> Serious question though, is there a reason you guys are using such small cats out there? I usually take one of my D8s to fires. I'd be scared to take a smaller dozer. But, it's not rare for me (or one of my employees) to be the only iron on scene for quite a while.



4-5-6's up north. Easier to get in and out , and move quickly. 
Pvt contractors a lot of 7-8's 

Pair up 4-5's with 6-7's for agility and strait push 

LaCo 8-9-10's


----------



## Drptrch

catbuster said:


> Makes sense. I usually just thrown an oversize load sign and some amber flashers on the lowboy, tilt the angle blade as far as it'll go and people just seem to get the hell out of the way
> 
> But **** man, I even used D7/8s on the Ft. Mac fire this spring. There's a level of speed a 5 or 6 just can't match in comparison to the heavier machine with more horsepower.



Parts of the Plumas, Klamath and Six Rivers Forests they dangle winch the cats over the edge .
Had killer photos , but on Broken phone


----------



## Drptrch

Link to 2 big fires going now

First is N of Big Sur - Last big fire was Basins 08. 162,000 acres
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/53584-CA-BEU-Soberanes


2nd is the Sand fire on the Angeles NF. Right off of I-5 & Hwy 14
Huge fire Hx here. Station 09 was 160,000+ acres

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/53589-CA-LAC-ANF-Sand

Both ripping overnight and this morning.





Basins fire from 08


----------



## Drptrch

Time lapse of Sand fire:


----------



## Drptrch

20,000 acres now


----------



## Drptrch

Salty Dip for the BEU Fire just N/O Big Sur and South of Monterey


----------



## Drptrch

DC-10 drop on Big Sur fire


----------



## Drptrch

Live action. About to possibly loose 200 homes 

http://abc7.com/live/23340/


----------



## 2dogs

I worked the Sobranes Fire yesterday helping to evacuate Boy Scouts and their belongings from Pico Blanco Scout Reservation 4 miles passed the end of Palo Colorado Canyon Rd. I was with the last group of people to leave and found out an hour later that 30 minutes after I left the fire slopped over the road. I was trying to get a pic of the C130 MAFFS or the DC10 VLAT but I all got were glimpse as they over flew me.
The Cal Fire Captain I was working with had been working on a hand crew the previous day but had to abandon the line because too many trees were falling around them. We have been getting 1 or 2 trees falling every night this summer.
BTW I left my house at midnight Friday and returned late yesterday afternoon. I got stuck in traffic backed up behind a crash. The traffic was stop and go and at one point I shifted the truck into park to stretch and opened my eyes to find my lane had moved 75'. I had fallen asleep for 2 or 3 seconds!


----------



## Drptrch

Calif Sand Fire SoCal

http://abcn.ws/2aoxMuk


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> I worked the Sobranes Fire yesterday



Keeps getting worse.


----------



## Drptrch

Delete Delete


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Keeps getting worse.



Our Strike Team is in that Division

Another Dozer rolled off a transporter


----------



## madhatte

Dang, man.


----------



## 2dogs

You guys probably know there was a fatal dozer rollover a few days ago.


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> You guys probably know there was a fatal dozer rollover a few days ago.



Soberanes fire? There was another rollover on the same fire.


----------



## atpchas

Soberanes fire - satellite pictures:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88483


----------



## madhatte

Big week for us; we've burned 1500+ acres (I haven't done the GIS work yet). Tired.


----------



## 2dogs

I worked with a USFS safety officer (trainee) and two falling bosses. I would not have been able to communicate and keep up to speed with them without Avenza maps. Thanks Nate.

I also need a new GPS. I didn't realize how well the new (Garmin) units work in the understory.

I have a very cool video I took on my iPhone 6S of a redwood tree falling due to fire damage. I just happened to be videoing when it came down. If only I new how to post the vid.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> I would not have been able to communicate and keep up to speed with them without Avenza maps. Thanks Nate.



You're quite welcome! We're super into that app now and pretty much depend on it. I even use it bossing dozers, because 10m accuracy is good enough for that kind of work. We had a hot one last week where two separate flanks a half-mile apart were following my mapbook in Avenza at the same time and we caught it at less than 200 acres in spite of thunder cell activity flipping the wind back and forth across every line we cut. It's a great tool.


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> I have a very cool video I took on my iPhone 6S of a redwood tree falling due to fire damage. I just happened to be videoing when it came down. If only I new how to post the vid.



Log in to arboristsite on Safari, and choose "Upload a File" bellow the text box you type in. That will take you to the folder the video will be in. Then you pick it, it uploads, and you post the post with it in it.


----------



## Drptrch

Word is Avenza is Beta testing a pro version, the free will only let you keep 3-4 self imported maps and unlimited Avenza store bought maps.


----------



## madhatte

Drptrch said:


> Word is Avenza is Beta testing a pro version, the free will only let you keep 3-4 self imported maps and unlimited Avenza store bought maps.



I'll probably buy the pro version then, with only a bit of grumbling, because I have really come to depend on that app. Good tools are worth money.


----------



## 2dogs

Hey Hatte. I met with the branch director for our branch and we talked maps. Everyone is using Avenza but with a very cool addition (which I did not see). The IAP each morning has a QR code on it that allows the current fire map, from an IR flight the night before, to overwrite Avenza and show the current fire's hot spots and/or boundary. This along with the large format paper map really allows for a much safer and faster attack. (At least once Cal Fire has left their motel and had breakfast, but that's a story for another time.)


----------



## Drptrch

https://m.box.com/shared_item/https://calfire.app.box.com/v/calfireimt4/browse/9621344257

This is a Cal fire version that is from a QR code, on a fire outside Fresno

Saves all in files, then you open in Avenza.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> The IAP each morning has a QR code on it that allows the current fire map, from an IR flight the night before, to overwrite Avenza and show the current fire's hot spots and/or boundary.



THAT IS SO COOL and I know how to do it and holy crap we live in the future. Thank you for the idea and link!


----------



## TBS

The s... is hitting the fan today in lake and san luis obispo counties.

Clayton fire lake County.
http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/20854

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/54244-CA-LNU-Clayton

Chimney fire San luis obispo county.
https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/14671
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/54243-CA-SLU-CHIMNEY


----------



## 2dogs

I have been called four times this year. That last call was for the Chimney fire at 02:30 Saturday morning. I used the excuse that my swamper Cody has drill this weekend, which is true. My contract is still valid but me safety training cert is expired. Besides I'm too busy to work. I would have liked to work the fire near Coalinga though.


----------



## TBS

Goose fire fresno county a few weeks ag .



Spots that started it's run up black mountain.




Patrol trucks barely visible nearly got roasted


Run up black mountain.

15 minutes into blow up the next afternoon the fire wasn't doing much until it jumped the retardant line. The fire was heading for the base camp at the base of the mountain.


----------



## Drptrch

Lower Lake, lake County, Ca
Bottom of Clear Lake in NorCal 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1207963212576594&id=219183904787868


----------



## 2dogs

There is a pretty cool pic making the rounds of a Fresno engine that suffered fire damage being towed by IIRC two dozers. I don't know the story of the pic, I just like it.

I'll be back to the Soberanes fire on Thursday to meet up with the forester and inspect trees for damage/soundness. Big Sur businesses have really taken a hit. Hwy 1 has been closed off and on for three weeks now. There is a short section of county road leading to our road that actually caught fire because of the logs supporting some fill caught fire. Of course the yellow jackets, everyone of them I think, are pissed off and looking for trouble. I just bought some more sting ease yesterday.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> There is a pretty cool pic making the rounds of a Fresno engine that suffered fire damage being towed by IIRC two dozers. I don't know the story of the pic, I just like it.
> 
> I'll be back to the Soberanes fire on Thursday to meet up with the forester and inspect trees for damage/soundness. Big Sur businesses have really taken a hit. Hwy 1 has been closed off and on for three weeks now. There is a short section of county road leading to our road that actually caught fire because of the logs supporting some fill caught fire. Of course the yellow jackets, everyone of them I think, are pissed off and looking for trouble. I just bought some more sting ease yesterday.



Kern County








Parked in the black, left rear wheels heated up and ignited, spotted by air attack.


----------



## 2dogs

Thanks Drip. I had not seen the first pic, only the second. Damn type 1's.


----------



## Drptrch

And..




Fun Fun Fun 
Water for the shower trucks was coming out hotter than I use at home for a hot shower


----------



## 2dogs

Cal Fire called again this morning at 00:30 for a faller module. Good work if you can get it.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Damn type 1's.



Especially when they show up in full turnouts and no tools. I send them back ASAP, as their radio traffic is just clutter.


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


> @catbuster A little bed time Iron for ya
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And an impromptu lesson
> 
> 
> 
> these are Bad-Ass [emoji13]


Can I come play too?!


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


>


Wow!


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


> Time lapse of Sand fire:



That is impressive! Ma nature can get spooled right up when she wants too


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


> Time lapse of Sand fire:



That is impressive! Ma nature can get spooled right up when she wants too


----------



## Drptrch

Update on Clear Lake Fire:

Suspect in custody, 17 counts arson

CA-LNU-Clayton

Clayton Fire Incident Information:

Last Updated:August 15, 2016 1:15 pm

Date/Time Started:August 13,2016 6:03 pm

Administrative Unit:CALFIRE Sonoma-Lake-Napa Unit

County:Lake County

Locationff Hwy 29 and Clayton Creek south of Lower Lake

Acres Burned - Containment:4,000 acres - 5% contained

Structures Threatened:1500

Structures Destroyed:175+

Structures Evacuated


Cause:Under Investigation, suspect in custody

Cooperating Agencies:CAL FIRE, Multiple local government fire departments, USFS, Department of Fish &amp; Game, CA State Parks, Lake County Sheriffs, CHP, PG&amp;E, CDCR and BLM.

Total Fire Personnel:1,044

total Fire Engines:122

Total Fire Crews:24

Total Airtankers:6

Total Helicopters:7

Total Dozers:22

Total Water Tenders:22

Long/Lat:-122.60664/38.89741



The fire continued to burning aggressively through the night. The communities impacted were Lower Lake and Clearlake. Additional resources arrived throughout the night. The fire behavior remains intense. Structures are threatened and currently mandatory evacuations are in place. Structure defense continues. Terrain is grassy oak woodland, heavy brush with difficult access.





https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_fid=7911&share_type=t&share_pid=218012


----------



## madhatte

Dammit, they just got clobbered last year. There's no way those communities are ready for this crap again already.


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Dammit, they just got clobbered last year. There's no way those communities are ready for this crap again already.



Ran right between those two






Retardant drops thru the city













And I believe the Fed Firehouse


----------



## madhatte

Aah, that's just brutal.


----------



## M.R.

A good friends son's friend.
Be alert / careful guys....
.

. http://www.abcfoxmontana.com/story/32765664/loved-ones-remember-justin-beebe


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


> Update on Clear Lake Fire:
> 
> Suspect in custody, 17 counts arson
> 
> CA-LNU-Clayton
> 
> Clayton Fire Incident Information:
> 
> Last Updated:August 15, 2016 1:15 pm
> 
> Date/Time Started:August 13,2016 6:03 pm
> 
> Administrative Unit:CALFIRE Sonoma-Lake-Napa Unit
> 
> County:Lake County
> 
> Locationff Hwy 29 and Clayton Creek south of Lower Lake
> 
> Acres Burned - Containment:4,000 acres - 5% contained
> 
> Structures Threatened:1500
> 
> Structures Destroyed:175+
> 
> Structures Evacuated
> 
> 
> Cause:Under Investigation, suspect in custody
> 
> Cooperating Agencies:CAL FIRE, Multiple local government fire departments, USFS, Department of Fish &amp; Game, CA State Parks, Lake County Sheriffs, CHP, PG&amp;E, CDCR and BLM.
> 
> Total Fire Personnel:1,044
> 
> total Fire Engines:122
> 
> Total Fire Crews:24
> 
> Total Airtankers:6
> 
> Total Helicopters:7
> 
> Total Dozers:22
> 
> Total Water Tenders:22
> 
> Long/Lat:-122.60664/38.89741
> 
> 
> 
> The fire continued to burning aggressively through the night. The communities impacted were Lower Lake and Clearlake. Additional resources arrived throughout the night. The fire behavior remains intense. Structures are threatened and currently mandatory evacuations are in place. Structure defense continues. Terrain is grassy oak woodland, heavy brush with difficult access.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/showpost.php?p=218012&share_tid=54244&share_fid=7911&share_type=t&share_pid=218012


Dang it man, be safe out there


----------



## Woos31

Drptrch said:


> Ran right between those two
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retardant drops thru the city
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I believe the Fed Firehouse


Oh man


----------



## Drptrch

New Start Devore,Ca
On the Angeles NF. 
5500 acres in 2 hrs

KTLA live feed
And Fox10 Los Angeles

Bad area drainage system aligned with wind, RED flag warnings were in effect


----------



## madhatte

Red flag expected here Thurs/Fri.


----------



## Kyler Monares

Blue Cutt Fire
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/54341-CA-BDF-Blue-Cut/page11


----------



## Kyler Monares

catbuster said:


> Soberanes fire? There was another rollover on the same fire.



Cal Fire Green Sheet on the CWN dozer rollover
https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/320307394/Cal-Fire-Report-on-Soberanes-Fire-Fatality


----------



## Kyler Monares

Madhatte 
Drptrch 
2dogs

Are you guys private contractors?
I'm an engineer for a small department south of salinas Ca.


----------



## madhatte

Me, I'm a DOD forester for the Army, on the south end of Puget Sound. I'm mostly an engine guy, FFT1/ICT5/SRB all quals but helicopters and tractor/plows, should be ICT4 by the end of this season. Next qual RXB2 and/or TFL. We hire every year, look for us on USAJobs.com.

EDIT: note that I'm strictly wildland and have no EMT/structural quals whatsoever.


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> Madhatte
> Drptrch
> 2dogs
> 
> Are you guys private contractors?
> I'm an engineer for a small department south of salinas Ca.



Engineer/Paramedic in Marin County.

Just back from Mineral Fire near Coalinga,Ca


----------



## Kyler Monares

Drptrch said:


> Engineer/Paramedic in Marin County.
> 
> Just back from Mineral Fire near Coalinga,Ca



We were almost on that fire with a mutual aid water tender. 
Nice to meet you guys I'll probably be a regular on this thread!


----------



## Kyler Monares

madhatte said:


> Me, I'm a DOD forester for the Army, on the south end of Puget Sound. I'm mostly an engine guy, FFT1/ICT5/SRB all quals but helicopters and tractor/plows, should be ICT4 by the end of this season. Next qual RXB2 and/or TFL. We hire every year, look for us on USAJobs.com.
> 
> EDIT: note that I'm strictly wildland and have no EMT/structural quals whatsoever.


Nice to meet you. From Monterey County. I have my FF1/engineer/ EMT. Been through Cal Fires wildland courses also. Not many wildland certs though. would love to take an S-212 class somewhere if I can find it.


----------



## madhatte

Kyler Monares said:


> would love to take an S-212 class somewhere if I can find it.



I just taught an S-212 session a few weeks ago!


----------



## Drptrch

The "Blue Cutt" fire near Devore,Ca has burnt 35,000 acres in less than one Op period and it's on the MOVE 
Up words of 85,000 people evacuating




Extreme fire behavior, they just pulled an entire division

Live audio feed:

http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/7010/web

News feeds:

http://ktla.com


----------



## Metals406

Drptrch said:


> The "Blue Cutt" fire near Devore,Ca HS burnt 35,000 acres in less than one Op period and it's on the MOVE
> Up words of 85,000 people evacuating
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extreme fire behavior, they just pulled an entire division


Holy crap!


----------



## Kyler Monares

madhatte said:


> I just taught an S-212 session a few weeks ago!



Do you hold them in California? I would love to take your class if you have another


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> Do you hold them in California? I would love to take your class if you have another



If Not, Try :
http://west.specialized-rescue.com/

And 
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/trainingclassselection


----------



## madhatte

Kyler Monares said:


> Do you hold them in California? I would love to take your class if you have another



Naw, my home unit is here in WA.


----------



## Kyler Monares

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Drptrch

And more from SoCal:
Near Lake Isabella, Kern County


----------



## TBS

It made a run to the north then about 10pm it blew up again heading west last nigh . 

10:52pm for looking from Breckenridge lookout in kern county.


----------



## TBS

http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin...e=160801&camera=breckenridge_1&lastFrame=true


----------



## 2dogs

I spent most of yesterday surveying hazard trees with a Cal Fire division chief on the Sobranes fire in Monterey County. So they have had 10 dozer rollovers including the one fatality. He said the green sheet is completely wrong in its account and that the (very sleazy) contractor is trying to save his tail. He explained what had really happened. We have also experienced thousands of dollars in stolen redwood by another (even sleazier) contractor with big time connections.


----------



## Kyler Monares

Does his account of what happen include multiple other contractors denying an assignment? I heard something to that effect the day after it happened.

Wow. People never seem to waste a tragedy to turn a profit....

I reside in the salinas valley. Wow it's a small world


----------



## 2dogs

Yes that has been the case. It is on almost every large fire. I hope Gologit docks his boat long enough to jump in here to elaborate. Maybe slowp has input too.

Kyler read the green sheet and look at the pics. The rollover happened almost on the pavement and the total distance was only 15'. It was in spitting distance of where Matt Will was killed in a dozer rollover a few years ago. CalDOG has a link to that incident.


----------



## Kyler Monares

I have read the green sheet...

What I meant was the next day multiple people were spreading the rumor that this guy was on the exact same ridge as Matt will and 5 different operators declined an assignment because of it being to dangerous and this guy decided to try it...
They were also trying to place blame on a cal fire captain for continuing to send dozers down the ridge.

I have no idea how this rumor even got started.
I always told them to wait until the green sheet is posted...
I heard the contractor this guy worked for was pretty shady

Either way it looks like his death could have been completely prevented. It's very unfortunate...


----------



## Drptrch

Chimney Fire in San Luis Obispo County - From Cal Fire: Fire is now at 19,909 acres and 35% contained, with evacuation ORDERS Bryson Hesperia, Oak Shores, CalShasta, Rancho de Lago, & South Shores Village.. Evacuation shelter at Flamson elementary.

Up from 9,000 yesterday with long range spotting issues and a S-wind pushing it to words Fort Hunter Liggett


----------



## 2dogs

Kyler Monares said:


> I have read the green sheet...
> 
> What I meant was the next day multiple people were spreading the rumor that this guy was on the exact same ridge as Matt will and 5 different operators declined an assignment because of it being to dangerous and this guy decided to try it...
> They were also trying to place blame on a cal fire captain for continuing to send dozers down the ridge.
> 
> I have no idea how this rumor even got started.
> I always told them to wait until the green sheet is posted...
> I heard the contractor this guy worked for was pretty shady
> 
> Either way it looks like his death could have been completely prevented. It's very unfortunate...


Kyler he rolled the dozer on the road. A rookie mistake that was entirely preventable.

You might want to introduce yourself here. We're a tough crowd. LOL


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Yes that has been the case. It is on almost every large fire. I hope Gologit docks his boat long enough to jump in here to elaborate. Maybe slowp has input too.
> 
> Kyler read the green sheet and look at the pics. The rollover happened almost on the pavement and the total distance was only 15'. It was in spitting distance of where Matt Will was killed in a dozer rollover a few years ago. CalDOG has a link to that incident.



https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/08/05/soberanes-fire-bulldozer-operator-killed/


----------



## Kyler Monares

2dogs said:


> Kyler he rolled the dozer on the road. A rookie mistake that was entirely preventable.
> 
> You might want to introduce yourself here. We're a tough crowd. LOL


Full time FF1/engineer for a small department in the salinas valley.


----------



## 2dogs

Thanks Bob. Yeah, I had heard all that and read the Green Sheet but I have heard much more than is noted there. I don't know if it will all turn out to be true or not but the contractor is done for. I hope he goes to prison. (Cal Fire's version makes the rollover sound like it was completely the fault of a cocky rookie dozer operator.)


----------



## Kyler Monares

Is some blame to be placed on cal fire as well?


----------



## madhatte

We had a near-miss recently when a pretty green DZOP didn't look back often enough and an alder branch stabbed through the screen near his armpit. I took that one personally as I was bossing the dozer at the time, and the brush was dense enough that a flagline wouldn't be visible but I had to stay ahead of the machine far enough to not get clobbered myself. I was leading with a flag on the end of my shovel. It was a little D-4 with no glass, just a cage and ROPS. No injuries, thankfully, but the damage to the cage shook us both up a little. The line we cut was where it needed to be, but was there a better way to lead? A better way to operate? Probably. I haven't figured out the lessons learned on this one yet.


----------



## Kyler Monares

Yeah that's a tough one. I have about 7-800 hours on a D6H doing the same time of work in steep terrain. Company I used to work for had a ranch to hunt on so I was always cleaning roads and clearing brush. I had a close call once. While cleaning a road a low hanging limb came in through the open cab and pushed on the left joystick causing it to turn the machine to the right towards the drop off on the side of the road. Lucky as it turned it also broke the limb off and fell to the ground. Right when that was happening I was kicking the throttle control lever forward to kill the machine while standing on the brake with my other foot. Scared the crap out of me... I had been driving through low hanging branches of trees all day but never even came close to a branch big enough that could do that... Needless to say I steer clear of them now. I even carry a saw with me to cut the limbs when I'm on a narrow road I can't swerve around the limbs and branches.
Was it my fault? Absolutely. If your bossing and the operator runs into something like that I don't think it could be your fault unless you were the one backing him up.


----------



## Metals406

madhatte said:


> We had a near-miss recently when a pretty green DZOP didn't look back often enough and an alder branch stabbed through the screen near his armpit. I took that one personally as I was bossing the dozer at the time, and the brush was dense enough that a flagline wouldn't be visible but I had to stay ahead of the machine far enough to not get clobbered myself. I was leading with a flag on the end of my shovel. It was a little D-4 with no glass, just a cage and ROPS. No injuries, thankfully, but the damage to the cage shook us both up a little. The line we cut was where it needed to be, but was there a better way to lead? A better way to operate? Probably. I haven't figured out the lessons learned on this one yet.


Yes, there is a better way. You and an assistant, bright ass paintballs in 2 sweet guns, blaze cat dude a trail he can see from space.

[emoji2] [emoji2] [emoji2] [emoji2]


----------



## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> We had a near-miss recently when a pretty green DZOP didn't look back often enough and an alder branch stabbed through the screen near his armpit. I took that one personally as I was bossing the dozer at the time, and the brush was dense enough that a flagline wouldn't be visible but I had to stay ahead of the machine far enough to not get clobbered myself. I was leading with a flag on the end of my shovel. It was a little D-4 with no glass, just a cage and ROPS. No injuries, thankfully, but the damage to the cage shook us both up a little. The line we cut was where it needed to be, but was there a better way to lead? A better way to operate? Probably. I haven't figured out the lessons learned on this one yet.



Nate what you need is an IMR-3M. Give a call to the Russian consulate (give my name as a reference) and order one up.


----------



## 2dogs

Bob do you know George Harrison from Grass Valley?


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> Nate what you need is an IMR-3M. Give a call to the Russian consulate (give my name as a reference) and order one up.



These things would slay on fires! Plumb a monitor into that grapple!

Pretty sweet


----------



## Drptrch

Structure protection for a Castle. Hearst Castle, San Simeon, Ca

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/article96946707.html


----------



## madhatte

Kyler Monares said:


> If your bossing and the operator runs into something like that I don't think it could be your fault unless you were the one backing him up.



You are not wrong. Doesn't stop me from worrying, though. 



Metals406 said:


> Yes, there is a better way. You and an assistant, bright ass paintballs in 2 sweet guns, blaze cat dude a trail he can see from space.



Last time I suggested paintballs it was for pre-marking trees for harvest as I cruised. That got -- pardon the pun -- shot down. My only real issue would be carrying compressed gases near a fire. 



2dogs said:


> Nate what you need is an IMR-3M. Give a call to the Russian consulate (give my name as a reference) and order one up.



On it like a sonnet in a bonnet!


----------



## northmanlogging

I don't know A bunch of aerosol cans of brightly colored paint, getting hotter then recommended, could be highly entertaining.


----------



## Drptrch

Whoa. New start near Yreka, Ca. 

CA-SKU-Grade

Location: 3 mile N of Yreka

Acres: 150

ROS: Moderate

ROC: Evacuations ordered for Rocky Road

Structures: are threatened

Special Hazards:

Resources: Numerous immediate need ST and Tankers ordered

Radio Frequencies:

Weather Info: Temp: 92, RH:12%, Winds: 5-9 moh with 15 mph gusts

Other Comments: built from info in Q&amp;D



<font color="Red">Internet Links ---------------



Maps:https://www.incidentdashboard.com/dashboard/168

Agency Website:

Online Scanner: http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/ctid/229

Live Video:

Web Cam: http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist2/cctv/allcams.shtml

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_fid=7911&share_type=t&share_pid=220508


----------



## 2dogs

12% RH. Ruh-roh.


----------



## Drptrch

Massive air assault 
350 @ 5% right now


----------



## Drptrch

Heading to the KRN-Cedar Friday. Type 3 swap out, unless ...


----------



## young bucker

Fort St. John fire in May this year..got a good shift in falling these things.


----------



## Drptrch

From the Yreka fire


----------



## young bucker

That's wild man


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/08/05/soberanes-fire-bulldozer-operator-killed/




"The Contractors State License Board, which has suspended Czirban’s license eight times in the last four years, launched a new investigation into the company this week after learning of Reagan’s apparent employment there.

The firm has told the board that it had no employees and therefore did not need to provide worker’s compensation, an agency spokesman said.

Cal Fire’s contract with Czirban includes an insurance policy with the State Compensation Insurance Fund that expired in January 2015."

That makes my blood boil. A guy ****ing died and they're not going to do anything. Sleazy bastard contractors...


----------



## Drptrch

Not mine , but what an awesome photo, 
Boys dad working on this fire, 
He ran out every time they came in to dip, and ran along field as they departed.
Pilots noticed and paid him a special personnel visit [emoji106][emoji106]


----------



## Kyler Monares

Found this video while clicking around Cody Thomas' (Tarzanthomas) YouTube channel last night.
Pretty neat song for all you wildland Fire sawyers...


----------



## madhatte

A crew member took this pic of me this afternoon while I was figuring out the order of operations for dismantling this big-ish cedar that burned out and fell over. Once I had it picked apart, the front end loader moved all of the green fuel out to a staging area to be chipped, and all of the logs to another for firewood. Day 9 I think of this fire. Kinda tired of this bastid crossing lines and switching directions. WHY WON'T YOU STAY IN THE BOX




Here's a few of us taking a break or something.


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

People were lined up along 8.5 miles of Lake Nacimiento Drive all the way from Chimney Rock into town. Our son is a Captain with the Sacramento Metropolitan Fire Dept. 

*Hundreds line 24th Street for firefighter support rally *
http://pasoroblesdailynews.com/hundreds-line-24th-street-firefighter-support-rally/61090/


----------



## madhatte

Kyler Monares said:


> Found this video while clicking around Cody Thomas' (Tarzanthomas) YouTube channel last night.
> Pretty neat song for all you wildland Fire sawyers...




Hot diggedy, that' a cool tune. Shared it with my crew via the social medias.


----------



## Drptrch

A little help from above todayon the Cedar Fire - Kern/Tulare County


----------



## 2dogs

I haven't been able to post images for awhile now but I bought a new computer last week. Let's give it a try.


----------



## 2dogs

Yeah it worked!! More to follow!

Oh I guess I can caption that first pic. This tree was on the hazard list but it looked pretty scary. I called for a blaster and the faller module agreed. When I came back the next week this tree had been cut down and pushed aside.


----------



## 2dogs

Here is the horizontal of that tree.


----------



## 2dogs

This tree will hopefully recover and repair itself by putting on new wood. The plan here is to monitor this tree every couple of months. Redwoods can put on new wood fast.


----------



## 2dogs

This canyon is about 600' deep where Cody is standing. The smoke layer is 75' below him but higher on the far side. We were working at the very bottom of the canyon along the river channel. It was tough to breathe and hard to see very far. The cameras and phones were confused where to focus.


----------



## Kyler Monares

2dogs said:


> This tree will hopefully recover and repair itself by putting on new wood. The plan here is to monitor this tree every couple of months. Redwoods can put on new wood fast.


Soberanes?


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> This tree will hopefully recover and repair itself by putting on new wood. The plan here is to monitor this tree every couple of months. Redwoods can put on new wood fast.












Opening was 7' across the bottom and about 18' high. 

Sequoia's amazing mass !!


----------



## Metals406

2dogs said:


> Here is the horizontal of that tree.


Sketchy tree! I probably would have called for a blast too.

Whoever cut it has some big, giant ballz!


----------



## madhatte

Metals406 said:


> Sketchy tree! I probably would have called for a blast too.
> 
> Whoever cut it has some big, giant ballz!



I was thinking the same.


----------



## Woos31

Or real thin under the tin hat


----------



## madhatte

Kyler Monares said:


> Found this video while clicking around Cody Thomas' (Tarzanthomas) YouTube channel last night.
> Pretty neat song for all you wildland Fire sawyers...




Apparently this has been removed from the YouTubes. Never fear, there is another source!


----------



## catbuster

15 years today, boys & girls. 15 years. I still want the guys I knew back... 

The photo is from the memorial at the firehouse today. 343 helmets in total. One for every member of the FDNY lost. Each with the individual's name, rank and unit number. The lower flag has the red stripes made up of the names of the 343.


----------



## 2dogs

A fuzzy stump. I didn't ask for this one but I'm glad someone else caught it.


----------



## madhatte

Nope, nope, nope.


----------



## 2dogs

Nate given all the facts I'd bet you would says YES, maybe even HELL YES. I took this pic out my truck window and as you can see the tree is headed down the slope. The stump is 20' above me on the opposite side of the road. This tree was deemed to hazardous to fall so it was crippled and blasted. The stump shatters hence the name "fuzzy stump". It sorta looks like a lightning strike. I haven't examined the tree but I suspect I will be fetching it for milling.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Nate given all the facts I'd bet you would says YES, maybe even HELL YES.



Heard that. We had a few on a fire this year that really wanted blasted, and the thought occurred to me, "why not call the EOD's to blast it?" Management said "we'll figure out how to do that in the off-season", some of the offending trees burned out and fell over when nobody was driving by, we bucked the mess out of the road, and hopefully we'll remember the lessons learned next time. One of them took a DZOP an hour or two to dig out. A few others got pushed over with the Gradall. The pic a page or two back of me cutting up a cedar was one that I considered falling, and even had a plan for, but decided that it wasn't worth the risk since it would burn out soon enough that we could just keep the road blocked. Once it fell, it was only a half hour before we had it clear with a front-end loader. I bucked it while waiting. No harm, no foul. It's worth noting that bicyclists are complete idiots and pay no attention whatsoever to overhead hazards and have to be almost forcibly turned away from fires. Even then, they are resentful. Thanks, jerks, I just saved you from dying, don't mind the filthy guy with the chainsaw, he's just here to ruin your fun.


----------



## Drptrch

Oop's on the Sobaranes Fire


----------



## Kyler Monares

I read about that. I heard the operator is in stable condition and expected to make full recovery thankfully!


----------



## Kyler Monares

When you guys decide that a snag is to dangerous to be felled and must be brought down with explosives which agency handles that? USFS, state resources or private contractors? I never even knew that was an option for the most dangerous trees


----------



## Kyler Monares

madhatte said:


> Heard that. We had a few on a fire this year that really wanted blasted, and the thought occurred to me, "why not call the EOD's to blast it?" Management said "we'll figure out how to do that in the off-season", some of the offending trees burned out and fell over when nobody was driving by, we bucked the mess out of the road, and hopefully we'll remember the lessons learned next time. One of them took a DZOP an hour or two to dig out. A few others got pushed over with the Gradall. The pic a page or two back of me cutting up a cedar was one that I considered falling, and even had a plan for, but decided that it wasn't worth the risk since it would burn out soon enough that we could just keep the road blocked. Once it fell, it was only a half hour before we had it clear with a front-end loader. I bucked it while waiting. No harm, no foul. It's worth noting that bicyclists are complete idiots and pay no attention whatsoever to overhead hazards and have to be almost forcibly turned away from fires. Even then, they are resentful. Thanks, jerks, I just saved you from dying, don't mind the filthy guy with the chainsaw, he's just here to ruin your fun.


I was on a vehicle accident several months ago and I almost had to tackle a rider to the ground to keep him from riding through our road block. I guess live power lines arcing and dancing across the blacktop are no big deal to them......


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> I read about that. I heard the operator is in stable condition and expected to make full recovery thankfully!



That was this one




Tank broke loose at bottom

The white one didn't roll off. Had to be anchored until dozer could pull up


----------



## Kyler Monares

Wow he got lucky! Damn!!!!!


----------



## madhatte

Kyler Monares said:


> I was on a vehicle accident several months ago and I almost had to tackle a rider to the ground to keep him from riding through our road block. I guess live power lines arcing and dancing across the blacktop are no big deal to them......


Those freakin' guys.


----------



## Drptrch

What Medics do when there's no injuries on your division [emoji106][emoji106]


----------



## Kyler Monares

Drptrch said:


> What Medics do when there's no injuries on your division [emoji106][emoji106]


Rats nest!!!!!!


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> Rats nest!!!!!!



Nicely bundled back haul [emoji13][emoji13]


----------



## Kyler Monares

Drptrch said:


> Nicely bundled back haul [emoji13][emoji13]


better to haul hose then a patient, that's for sure!


----------



## Drptrch

Here comes dinner and breakfast


----------



## Drptrch

Roughn' it up on a ridge top, with a fresh cup of Peets [emoji106][emoji106] in the LP/Ventana wilderness[emoji847][emoji847]


----------



## Kyler Monares

you have your rig set up pretty nice, Drptrch... whats the metal diamond plate mounted to the passenger side inside the bed?


----------



## 2dogs

The Soberanes (MOCO) fire is around 108,000 acres. The cost as of a few days ago was $198 million dollars. The fire will go out when it is good and ready to. It appears that will have to be a season ending event like a large rainstorm.

I think there is 190 more miles of line to put in but it could just be that is how much more line needs to burn to reach control lines. The estimated acreage at containment should be around 180,000.


----------



## Woos31

madhatte said:


> Heard that. We had a few on a fire this year that really wanted blasted, and the thought occurred to me, "why not call the EOD's to blast it?" Management said "we'll figure out how to do that in the off-season", some of the offending trees burned out and fell over when nobody was driving by, we bucked the mess out of the road, and hopefully we'll remember the lessons learned next time. One of them took a DZOP an hour or two to dig out. A few others got pushed over with the Gradall. The pic a page or two back of me cutting up a cedar was one that I considered falling, and even had a plan for, but decided that it wasn't worth the risk since it would burn out soon enough that we could just keep the road blocked. Once it fell, it was only a half hour before we had it clear with a front-end loader. I bucked it while waiting. No harm, no foul. It's worth noting that bicyclists are complete idiots and pay no attention whatsoever to overhead hazards and have to be almost forcibly turned away from fires. Even then, they are resentful. Thanks, jerks, I just saved you from dying, don't mind the filthy guy with the chainsaw, he's just here to ruin your fun.


Not just you guys they act like that to, they treat road maintenance crews about the same if not worse because we stop them for no apparent reason............I guess graders, rollers, loaders, and belly dumps aren't a danger to them similar to fire it sounds lol


----------



## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Oop's on the Sobaranes Fire


There is a short video on youtube, WildlandFireLLC. Try water tender close call.


----------



## Kyler Monares

2dogs said:


> There is a short video on youtube, WildlandFireLLC. Try water tender close call.


----------



## madhatte

Woos31 said:


> Not just you guys they act like that to, they treat road maintenance crews about the same if not worse because we stop them for no apparent reason............I guess graders, rollers, loaders, and belly dumps aren't a danger to them similar to fire it sounds lol



They're wearing a helmet, what more do you want from them?


----------



## Woos31

I'd really like to tes


madhatte said:


> They're wearing a helmet, what more do you want from them?


I'd really like to test out how tough those helmets really are............after I throw the stick in their spokes of course, that way it's an even test since it will have contacted pavement prior to the shovel contact finishing with helmet to boulder contact. Cuz ya know such a kind caring community of people need someone to look out for them right?


----------



## Woos31

Or a yellow jackets nest shaken and thrown out for them so as to again test that the bees cannot get into garments by way of short sleeve, short pants leg, or more importantly under the helmet. I wouldn't want a cyclist to know the feeling of a yellow jacket inside the helmet just a stingin like a mother F-er, near like a ball peen hammer peckin away up neath the tin hat in case no one else has had the priviledge. Them or bald hornets which is just worse all the way around, they hit like a pellet gun cept they're nice enough to bite and sting simultaneously while spinning circles


----------



## madhatte

Yellowjackets are just the worst. I've got nothing nice to say about them.


----------



## Drptrch

Set up a toilet for the crews, with a view


----------



## madhatte

A borate slurry view, looks like!


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

madhatte said:


> Yellowjackets are just the worst. I've got nothing nice to say about them.



When I see Yellowjackets swarming out of a nest in the ground, a 1/2 gal of Naphtha poured into their underground nest will suffocate them. Yellowjacket bites are extremely painful. When Yellowjackets inflict pain on me, I inflict pain on them.


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

When our son Dan was a paid on call Firefighter/EMT for Heritage Ranch Engine 33, he participated in one of the rescues shown on the Rescue 911 tv show. The episode shown on tv was filed in a level location that was far less dangerous than the steep and windy Godfrey Grade where it actually occurred. Placing the victim in the mud alongside the road until the ambulance arrived probably saved her life. Dan worked behind the scenes to get burn therapy for the young lady.

*Rescue 911 - Episode 322 - "Burning Jeep Pin" (Part 1 of 2)*

When a car accident leaves a teenage girl trapped in her burning truck, bystanders risk their lives to save her. This segment was taken from Episode 322 which aired on April 7, 1992 on CBS.


----------



## Drptrch

East side taking off


----------



## madhatte

Looks like work to me!


----------



## Woos31

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> When I see Yellowjackets swarming out of a nest in the ground, a 1/2 gal of Naphtha poured into their underground nest will suffocate them. Yellowjacket bites are extremely painful. When Yellowjackets inflict pain on me, I inflict pain on them.


They like saw has too hehe


----------



## atpchas

NASA Earth Observatory pictures of Soberanes fire extent:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88781


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Even though we can't smell it, smoke from the Canyon Fire is obscuring our view. The launch pad is designed to be engulfed in fire. The missile sitting on it, not so much.

*Fire threatening launch pad at Vandenberg Air Force Base*
*September 20, 2016*
https://calcoastnews.com/2016/09/fire-threatening-launch-pad-vandenberg-air-force-base/


----------



## Drptrch

And sad news also:
https://calcoastnews.com/2016/09/ventura-county-firefighter-killed-crash-en-route-vandenberg/


----------



## Drptrch

Finally able to see the site the water tender went over the edge on the Soberanes Fire. Zoom way in it's the white pile in middle of pic. Worked with the Guys that facilitated the rescue and extraction of the driver




Great job by all who were involved, the REM (Rapid Extraction Mod) team also was the one that secured the almost roll-over of a teetering tender, featured in a video in an earlier post.

[emoji106][emoji106]


----------



## Drptrch

Today, straight down this ridge line to a Bee swarm attack on Saw mod working in the drainage .
1500' loss in a mile, which means 1500' climb out 




Looking out over the last 400' drop


----------



## 2dogs

Hey Drip. I have not learned where the tenders rolled over. Do you have a better location. I was surprised a REM was used on the near miss. I didn't know they did that kind of work. (I had read about their use in Wildfiretoday.com).

Where is the drainage you pictured? I was in the Little Sur drainage today begging for another explosives crew to help me out. Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Hey Drip. I have not learned where the tenders rolled over. Do you have a better location. I was surprised a REM was used on the near miss. I didn't know they did that kind of work. (I had read about their use in Wildfiretoday.com).
> 
> Where is the drainage you pictured? I was in the Little Sur drainage today begging for another explosives crew to help me out. Maybe, maybe not.



PM sent
REM anchored it until Dozer pulled with chains


----------



## 2dogs

What the heck did the REM have that was strong enough? I thought they just carried low angle stuff. I bet that tender driver pooped himself when the "safety" chain broke.


----------



## madhatte

Drptrch said:


> Today, straight down this ridge line to a Bee swarm attack on Saw mod working in the drainage .
> 1500' loss in a mile, which means 1500' climb out



SUUUUUCKS no thanks man



2dogs said:


> I was in the Little Sur drainage today begging for another explosives crew to help me out. Maybe, maybe not.



Seriously gonna investigate in the off-season how to do that with EOD assistance. Surely those guys have the goods and the know-how, and can use the training opportunity.


----------



## madhatte

A drone dropping ping-pong balls to ignite RX burns so that we don't have to eat as much smoke? Not sure how I feel about that.


----------



## 2dogs

It has to be a whole lot cheaper than a helicopter dropping AIDS balls. I like it!


----------



## Drptrch

Soberanes Fire - Branch strike falling snag

http://www.wildfirelessons.net/High...938-6b21-5f3d-546f-531eb99d0fce&forceDialog=0


----------



## slowp

Good point that I've always wondered about--how does the faller hear the spotter? Maybe crews should carry one of those little noisy airhorns made for boating? Even then, can the faller react fast enough?


----------



## 2dogs

A few years ago "Sim Limbs" were a popular training aid. A Sim Limb is a piece of very light weight plastic conduit covered in pipe insulation. It could be dropped from 20' up and if it hit you it would not hurt. I don't know if these devices are used any longer. Some could be triggered to drop from the ground. What I found out is that the sim limb hit the ground every time in less than 2 seconds. If the faller was not looking up he was hit. The swamper should be looking up too but there is really nothing he can do to help. It is never a good idea to body tackle a guy running a chainsaw.

I you are going to practice with a sim limb TAKE THE CHAIN OFF THE SAW! Wear your full PPE including ears and try acting the way you would when falling a tree including having the saw running.

Regarding this incident I don't know what I would have done differently. Darn shame someone got hurt over a dead tree.

Do we know who the faller is?


----------



## 2dogs

I spent yesterday falling fire damaged tanoaks inside the Soberanes fire lines near Big Sur. Over the years I have gotten used to these trees' nasty habits, mainly breaking the hinge very early. Heavy leaners in the three foot range will easily break when the hinge is 8" thick and sometimes 10 or more inches thick. After this fire many trees have a burned out heart that goes up the tree 10 or 12 feet or more. I'm sawing a face into the tree above my head. This really takes some strength...which I don't have so my face is often angled or too shallow and now requires trimming.

Yesterday my second tree was probably 5' diameter at ground level and a little over 3' at the cut. The MS460/32" LW Stihl bar was sharp and in perfect tune. (OK maybe it was a little grabby). This tree forked about 30' up and the left fork forked again for 40'. The top was another 20', maybe. That left fork was aimed dead on into a fir tree with enough downhill lean I was not going to steer it anywhere else but that was OK because I figured with more weight on the right side it would just pivot and rotate around the fir. FALLING! The tanoak hit the fir like I thought it would and bent it over BUT it tore the left upper fork off and threw it back toward me! It landed 30' from me but it gave a scare none the less.

When I looked at the stump I could see onside corner where the face had closed and the offside where the hinge was a little thick. No big deal, I'm still alive.

If you guys are falling tanoaks of any size be careful. There middle half of these trees are weak and punky. Sometimes termites will have weakened the tree, especially with co-dominant trunks. Watch the sawdust if possible or have your swamper keep an eye on it. And as always LOOK UP.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Watch the sawdust if possible or have your swamper keep an eye on it. And as always LOOK UP.



Good tale, good advice.


----------



## Drptrch

Whoop Whoop

NV-CCFX-Little Valley

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...2&share_tid=55642&share_fid=7911&share_type=t


----------



## 2dogs

Hey Drip. Is there a document on the Soberanes fire that would tell me how many vehicle accidents, heavy equipment rollovers, injuries, etc. there has been so far?


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Hey Drip. Is there a document on the Soberanes fire that would tell me how many vehicle accidents, heavy equipment rollovers, injuries, etc. there has been so far?



Possibly the Team Safety. Or maybe PIO if those type are still around

Possibly "Iceweb" but that would most likely include all injuries. 

It also started as a CalFire incident, so maybe them

Still cuttin ??


----------



## TBS

The jacobson fire started yesterday in nuclear(sequoia) national forest backcountry and blow up this afternoon.







http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin...21/2016,&camera=sherman_peak_1&lastFrame=true


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> The jacobson fire started yesterday in nuclear(sequoia) national forest backcountry and blow up this afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin...21/2016,&camera=sherman_peak_1&lastFrame=true



Golden Trout Wilderness


----------



## madhatte

Welp, I guess fire season isn't over for you guys just yet. We just winterized our engines. More rain is coming. I have mixed feelings this time of year every time -- "Dang, no more fire and no more crew and no more OT" is just about overruled by "let me sleep in on Saturday already and oh man is life easier when I don't have to worry about the care and feeding of a crew and also stuff stops breaking down as soon as we stop using it". I am also always ready to start fire season after a few months of rain because man is it fun to run a crew towards the end of the season when everybody's figured the basics out and are comfortable working together and are jazzed to kill a fire as soon as they hear about it. Morale breaks as soon as the first person cuts out to go back to school. The high water mark is always about September 10. That's a seasonal crew at its best.


----------



## TBS

The jacobson fire 650 acres yesterday but past that now and is starting to run again.


----------



## Metals406

Nathan lassley said:


> The jacobson fire 650 acres yesterday but past that now and is starting to run again.


Sounds impossible this time of year.

Hope weather starts helping.


----------



## TBS

2 years ago we had a fire in the same area in the middle of january that burned for over two months, 4-5 storms, and 1500 acres. Fire fighters could'nt access it due to snow until late march.


----------



## Metals406

Nathan lassley said:


> 2 years ago we had a fire in the same area in the middle of january that burned for over two modis, 4-5 storms, and 1500 acres. Fire fighters could'nt access it due to snow until late march.


Wacky!


----------



## madhatte

Dang, man.


----------



## catbuster

January... That's wonky. The only fires I'd expect to be running into at that point would be people who can't keep it in their houses' furnaces or stoves.


----------



## TBS

Veiw from bald mountain lookout 1/16/2014.


----------



## Drptrch

Currently reported as 1,075 acres.

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5073

http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin...0161024&camera=bald_mountain_1&lastFrame=true


----------



## 2dogs

Unless you're from SoCal then fires in January are all to common.


----------



## TBS

1,275 acres 0% contained.


----------



## TBS

Fire season is still going in the central and southern Sierra. On the 28th-29th we had a lot of rain but also had some lightning.

Hidden fire north of balch park.
http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin.../10/2016,&camera=jordan_peak_7&lastFrame=true

Meadow fire near the Trail of 1,000 Giants in the Johnsondale area. Wasn't doing much until this afternoon.
http://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin...10/2016,&camera=sherman_peak_7&lastFrame=true

Both being managed for resource benefits. The jacobson and slate fires are in the same areas.


----------



## Gologit

There's a lot of nice timber in the Johnsondale area.


----------



## catbuster

South and East KY is pretty busy with fire too. KY Division of Forestry is overwhelmed at the moment. It's a damn shame. Red River Gorge is probably the best place to hike and rock climb in KY.

http://www.kentucky.com/news/state/article113280058.html


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Weve got fires here in GA..Ive been on several. Drought is getting worse. No rain in sight.

Okefenokee Swamp is getting low.. due for a fire in it


----------



## atpchas

From the NASA Earth Observatory:
*Drought and Fire in the Southeast*
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=89103


----------



## TN woodcutter

Interesting article. Now, it mentioned that fires in the SE usually don't get very large, which got me thinking (and if this is the wrong spot for this, i apologize-I don't want to be "that guy"). This would be because of the differing fuel types between the SE and the Western US, correct? Also, the amount of fires in the WUI is probably greater in the SE as opposed to fires from natural causes, such as lightning? As an aside, I'm working towards my FFT2, but I don't remember this being covered in the classes that I've taken thus far. Thanks in advance guys.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

TN woodcutter said:


> Interesting article. Now, it mentioned that fires in the SE usually don't get very large, which got me thinking (and if this is the wrong spot for this, i apologize-I don't want to be "that guy"). This would be because of the differing fuel types between the SE and the Western US, correct? Also, the amount of fires in the WUI is probably greater in the SE as opposed to fires from natural causes, such as lightning? As an aside, I'm working towards my FFT2, but I don't remember this being covered in the classes that I've taken thus far. Thanks in advance guys.



There can be large fars here in the SE..typically where I am in Southeast Georgia. We had the biggest fire in Georgia and Floridas history in 2007. But we have more pine plantations. Most up yalls way is leaves..

Out west you can run into sage that burns hot and manzaneta and other brush then you have lodgepole, pines, and firs..which are pretty resiny.

down here we have pines, gallberry, kudzu, palmettos, and other brush.

Western fire season can start real early, according to snow fall and rain fall and can even go into late fall until snow/rain.

SE fires can be year round since lots of the area doesnt get snow. its according to the rainfall. Though we classify fire season in the SE around Fall to Spring. Summers are humid and get the thunderstorms. Though we have had several bad fires even when the humidity is up..especially when our brush and pines have lots of flammable resins rising in spring and summer.

Humans are the #1 cause of wildfires followed by natural ooooccurances(lightning).

Weve had several lightning fires this year.


----------



## atpchas

More on fires in the southeast from the NASA Earth Observatory:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=89195


----------



## northmanlogging

dumb question...

what do you professional folks use to keep the fire tanks from freezing, if anything.

can't be toxic of course, and I don't like the idea of salt, I sometimes use my fire tank to clean equipment as well, so it can't be corrosive either...


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

northmanlogging said:


> dumb question...
> 
> what do you professional folks use to keep the fire tanks from freezing, if anything.
> 
> can't be toxic of course, and I don't like the idea of salt, I sometimes use my fire tank to clean equipment as well, so it can't be corrosive either...




Drain the tank or keep inside a building to lessen cracked pipes.

Thats what we do with our engines.


----------



## northmanlogging

tanks drianed now, pump too.

I'm thinkin cause I might need this on a job durring freezing weather, (not like often, but still).


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

northmanlogging said:


> tanks drianed now, pump too.
> 
> I'm thinkin cause I might need this on a job durring freezing weather, (not like often, but still).




Its easier and cheaper to refill with water than to buy a new pump or pipes and replace them.

I know its a pain though but its the only way we've done it. Other places might use something else. 

You could fill up a tank real quick with a hydrant or a deep well with a good pump (that has its pipes insulated).


----------



## madhatte

Tank drained, pumps and valves filled with non-toxic RV antifreeze. We still lose the occasional ball valve due to water trapped in the flat between ball and valve body.


----------



## northmanlogging

thats right they put that RV stuff in the drinkin water... have to look into that.


----------



## madhatte

W'd probably use the cheap old ethylene glycol but for the fact that the hazmat folks are in the same office as us and it's kind of important to keep the peace.


----------



## Cfaller

I usually use compressed air to blow all the valves and piping out. A screw compressor flowing 100+ cfm works wonders on slip on units.


----------



## 2dogs

RV anti-freeze is what we use for all the summer camp pipes and toilets when there will be even a little water left.


----------



## madhatte

Stuff seems to work pretty well. Just gotta be careful to recirc everything and cycle everything open and shut to prevent water entrapment in the spaces between things. It's hard to not crack at least one thing every year.


----------



## northmanlogging

pump has a pretty good drain, suction hose is detached and drained.

Only one valve and that is on the tank, I'm mostly concerned about having water available, rather then a large 3000# block of ice, and if I do decide to use it, not destroying every living thing in the splash zone.


----------



## atpchas

More from The NASA Earth Observatory: 
*People Cause Most U.S. Wildfires*
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=89757


----------



## atpchas

And more: 
*Abundant Snowpack Blankets the Sierra Nevada*
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=89738


----------



## Scablands

atpchas said:


> And more:
> *Abundant Snowpack Blankets the Sierra Nevada*
> http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=89738



This is one of my favorite reports: https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/wa_swepctnormal_update.pdf

Washington is looking good this year. We should be well over 100% of normal here with the snow pounding down here tonight.

Here is a directory of all snowpack reports. They are usually updated daily.

https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/

Map of the entire west: https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/west_swepctnormal_update.pdf

And the fire crews might be busy in Alaska this year...
https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/data/water/wcs/gis/maps/ak_swepctnormal_update.pdf


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

We're going to be busy down here in the SE more than likely.


----------



## TN woodcutter

@Wildland_Firefighter Could be, but we've gotten tons of rain here lately. The only thing we've had is a few 3-5 acre fires, and all pretty easy to knock down. Is it pretty dry down there in Georgia?


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

TN woodcutter said:


> @Wildland_Firefighter Could be, but we've gotten tons of rain here lately. The only thing we've had is a few 3-5 acre fires, and all pretty easy to knock down. Is it pretty dry down there in Georgia?




We've been getting rain here and there but the thing is trees and plants are now taking up water and then farmers will start turning on their irrigation pivots thus ground water will get low quickly.

You can go a week without rain and have a sunny day with some winds on days to dry out fuels even more..and youll have big fires.

On a sunny warm day its estimated an inch or more of ground saturation will dry up.


----------



## 2dogs

I went up to a friend's house in the mountains today and I was surprised to see offender crews burning off a hill side. There wasn't much fire, anything down is still wet from the winter rains. It looked like they were raking everything into piles to get some heat. Both crews were in brand new nomex, very bright orange. It won't be for long.

My son Cody has a full time permanent job with benefits at the university (a 5 minute drive from home) so we didn't sign up as fallers this season with Cal Fire or USFS.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Two homes burned up across the State line in Florida. Some guy burning books let it get out.


----------



## northmanlogging

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> Two homes burned up across the State line in Florida. Some guy burning books let it get out.


Books? seriously?


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> I went up to a friend's house in the mountains today and I was surprised to see offender crews burning off a hill side. There wasn't much fire, anything down is still wet from the winter rains. It looked like they were raking everything into piles to get some heat. Both crews were in brand new nomex, very bright orange. It won't be for long.
> 
> My son Cody has a full time permanent job with benefits at the university (a 5 minute drive from home) so we didn't sign up as fallers this season with Cal Fire or USFS.



You all finished up on the LP ??


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

northmanlogging said:


> Books? seriously?



http://www.news4jax.com/news/florid...idents-return-firefighters-warns-of-flare-ups


----------



## northmanlogging

****ing florida...

Does florida realize they are an embarrassment to the rest of the country?


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

northmanlogging said:


> ****ing florida...
> 
> Does florida realize they are an embarrassment to the rest of the country?



Its not just Florida. Lots of people burn illegal materials.

Had to issue a citation to one lady. Said she didnt need to have a permit to burn on her land that she pays taxes for.

People are people. Careless and selfish.


----------



## northmanlogging

its more along the lines of Florida has a knack for generating crazy news...

man burning books ignites county.

man high on bath salts eats mans face off.

cop on heroin passes out in Mc D's drive through

corrections officers boil man to death

etc etc etc


----------



## northmanlogging

Florida man suspected of stealing nicklebacks drummer's identity... you can't make this shizz up

man wipes feces on pier to mark fishing spot


----------



## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> You all finished up on the LP ??


Nope, not finished. I don't think I ever will be but ever since the rain started I've been on equipment much more the running a chainsaw. The experts said we would have a 76% increase in debris flows in any given drainage over a "normal" year. It had been several years since we had a normal year so I would guess we had a 200% increase in debris flows. The County road into camp was closed for weeks when a major culvert plugged up and the creek overflowed onto the road. The Atmospheric River came right over the top of us and the damage made national news. The County has written us off even though we have taken our case to Washington. Jimmy Panetta is on our side but he is a freshman and doesn't get much attention.

The USFS dirt road is maintained by us and it has taken a beating with debris flows and washouts. Our road is an extension of the LP's road (I don't know the number) and it is in the same shape. The County has just issued a new permit that has us taking down a couple good size redwoods that are hazards. Our contractor has a 966 and a short logger that has been on our property for months now with no way to get them past the worst washout on the County road. He has been talking about have a bucket for the 966, not a slip on but a complete pin-on, flown in by helicopter so he can try to dig himself out. There has been some talk of a flatcar bridge but I don't know how long of a load can make the turns on the County road. BTW the County Supervisor is also a freshman and can just nod and look concerned. She is in WAY over her head. She has a nice clean white hardhat though.

Culverts are pretty expensive too. We need one 60-84" culvert installed. That one culvert job will run the Forest Service about $60,000! Don't EVER put in a plastic culvert where a fire might burn! Stick with CMP regardless of how much more difficult to work with it is.

I'll try some pics later.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Nope, not finished. I don't think I ever will be but ever since the rain started I've been on equipment much more the running a chainsaw. The experts said we would have a 76% increase in debris flows in any given drainage over a "normal" year. It had been several years since we had a normal year so I would guess we had a 200% increase in debris flows. The County road into camp was closed for weeks when a major culvert plugged up and the creek overflowed onto the road. The Atmospheric River came right over the top of us and the damage made national news. The County has written us off even though we have taken our case to Washington. Jimmy Panetta is on our side but he is a freshman and doesn't get much attention.
> 
> The USFS dirt road is maintained by us and it has taken a beating with debris flows and washouts. Our road is an extension of the LP's road (I don't know the number) and it is in the same shape. The County has just issued a new permit that has us taking down a couple good size redwoods that are hazards. Our contractor has a 966 and a short logger that has been on our property for months now with no way to get them past the worst washout on the County road. He has been talking about have a bucket for the 966, not a slip on but a complete pin-on, flown in by helicopter so he can try to dig himself out. There has been some talk of a flatcar bridge but I don't know how long of a load can make the turns on the County road. BTW the County Supervisor is also a freshman and can just nod and look concerned. She is in WAY over her head. She has a nice clean white hardhat though.
> 
> Culverts are pretty expensive too. We need one 60-84" culvert installed. That one culvert job will run the Forest Service about $60,000! Don't EVER put in a plastic culvert where a fire might burn! Stick with CMP regardless of how much more difficult to work with it is.
> 
> I'll try some pics later.


Where abouts you working ? Up by the scout camp
I was mostly on the southern part , above Ventana lodge and to the south on that ridge road down to DP 140 above Rodeo Flats


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Culverts are pretty expensive too. We need one 60-84" culvert installed. That one culvert job will run the Forest Service about $60,000! Don't EVER put in a plastic culvert where a fire might burn! Stick with CMP regardless of how much more difficult to work with it is..



SO TRUE. We had a blowout a few years ago on a 36" culvert... which was replaced with two 12" plastic ones. Guess how long that lasted? Yep, 2 years. Guess when it's gonna get replaced? Yep, no time soon.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Okefenokee is on fire. Mims Island at 3500 acres. Was 75 acres a few days ago.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> SO TRUE. We had a blowout a few years ago on a 36" culvert... which was replaced with two 12" plastic ones. Guess how long that lasted? Yep, 2 years. Guess when it's gonna get replaced? Yep, no time soon.



They replaced one 36" with two 12"s? That must have made sense to somebody. Probably somebody with an engineering degree. Scary thought.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> They replaced one 36" with two 12"s? That must have made sense to somebody. Probably somebody with an engineering degree. Scary thought.



2 12" plastic culverts is what they had laying around. It was that or nothing. I did the math for the supervisor and he just shrugged.


----------



## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Where abouts you working ? Up by the scout camp
> I was mostly on the southern part , above Ventana lodge and to the south on that ridge road down to DP 140 above Rodeo Flats



I'm working from Botcher's Gap campground on the LPF down into Pico Blanco Scout Reservation (DP38). The first half of the road belongs to the USFS, the second half is ours. About 2 mile each section. Doesn't sound like much but with the Sobranes fire and this monstrous winter I am having to clear slide areas several times. We have one major creek crossing that I have spent half my time on. It has a 36" culvert that has been plugging up every storm. I think though we are finally past the big rains so that now I can spend some time making the road smooth and then switch over to our bigger projects. The power of water is amazing.


----------



## TBS

Fire season is underway in central California. Elm fire 3000 acres and growing.

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/58074-CA-FKU-Elm


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> Fire season is underway in central California. Elm fire 3000 acres and growing.
> 
> http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/58074-CA-FKU-Elm



Was on the north side of 198 last year for 10 days, 110*F every day. All grass, shrub and minimal trees. Sucked








Steep as s*** in scree...


----------



## Drptrch

But managed to buy a 2100cd from @how57 though [emoji106][emoji106] on down time


----------



## TBS

You worked the mineral fire?

Parkfield grade now being evacuated.


----------



## Drptrch

Yep. As Medic


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Okefenokee Fire getting pretty much contained. got rain coming in. But could easily start up again


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Big DC 10 they brought in to help us.



pic i took of the drop.


----------



## Drptrch

FKU-CA Elm [emoji269] now approx 10-11,000 acres in grass and shrub


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

No handcrew assignments this year for us :-(


----------



## Drptrch

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> No handcrew assignments this year for us :-(








IA in Malibu right now


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Drptrch said:


> IA in Malibu right now




Ill plow that **** out and be home for supper


----------



## Drptrch

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> Ill plow that **** out and be home for supper



Whatch' runnin ??


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Drptrch said:


> Whatch' runnin ??




CAT D6N


----------



## Drptrch

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> CAT D6N




LA area Boys runnin' D8R and a coulple D10 
Computerized GPS and file bank, all there roads and tracks are stored for tie-ins


----------



## Drptrch




----------



## Drptrch

NorCal and PNW



p
Skedgine's w/500g water


----------



## madhatte

Just did S-390 this week, S-330 in 3 weeks, and RX-310 in July. Got snowed the hell out in Ft Collins yesterday. Weird thinking about fire during a heavy snowstorm. Still, why are they scheduling training during fire season? Oh, yeah, that's right -- the DOD cadre folks are all from the deep south, and it's not THEIR fire season.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

Drptrch said:


> LA area Boys runnin' D8R and a coulple D10
> Computerized GPS and file bank, all there roads and tracks are stored for tie-ins




Thats nice to have especially them GPS systems.
Our agency tracks us with some little thing but we cant see our location in our tractors. 

Florida Forest Service is implimenting GPS in their tractors where they can see where they are at and the supervisor can too.


But those systems cant track if youre 5 miles away but generally youre not going to be that far away from your supervisor or transport.

D8 would be nice but most of the time they use them for KG.

We try to keep most our IA tractors small because of the pine plantations we have and dont want to knock every landowner pine tree down.

We have 450Gs up to our D6N and TD 15 and we do have a John Deere 1050 with KG blade.

Them skidgines are nice to have. We were going to use a unimog and put a tank on it


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

madhatte said:


> Just did S-390 this week, S-330 in 3 weeks, and RX-310 in July. Got snowed the hell out in Ft Collins yesterday. Weird thinking about fire during a heavy snowstorm. Still, why are they scheduling training during fire season? Oh, yeah, that's right -- the DOD cadre folks are all from the deep south, and it's not THEIR fire season.




were burning here in Georgia and Florida


But we are getting rain soon. But we really need a tropical storm.


----------



## madhatte

Yeah, I know it's hoppin' down there right now but it'll break soon. They appear to have planned all of the training this year around that assumption.


----------



## Wildland_Firefighter

madhatte said:


> Yeah, I know it's hoppin' down there right now but it'll break soon. They appear to have planned all of the training this year around that assumption.




Yeah, expecting 2 inches but itll be gone


Wish we had training


----------



## Cfaller

madhatte said:


> Just did S-390 this week, S-330 in 3 weeks, and RX-310 in July. Got snowed the hell out in Ft Collins yesterday. Weird thinking about fire during a heavy snowstorm. Still, why are they scheduling training during fire season? Oh, yeah, that's right -- the DOD cadre folks are all from the deep south, and it's not THEIR fire season.


Are they still teaching nomograms in 390? Been awhile since I've taken it.


----------



## madhatte

Cfaller said:


> Are they still teaching nomograms in 390? Been awhile since I've taken it.



Of course. I kinda like 'em, really. They're a lot of math packed into a very usable graphic format. They're also sort of teasing BEHAVE Plus but I think that's a S-490 thing exactly as nomograms were teased in S-290 but not really a major component until S-390. It's like the NWCG guys think they're a soap opera of some kind.


----------



## Kyler Monares

hey guys im back! just in time for the season. Hey! i have an S-212 class coming up in two weeks in Fresno Ca. being put on by Golden State Fire Support. have and of you guys dealt with them in the past?


----------



## madhatte

I've taught 'em. What do you want to know?


----------



## Kyler Monares

Wondering how good the classes are that are put on by Golden Gate Fire support. The reason i ask is because they arent listed on the CA SFM website class list. you have taught for Golden Gate?


----------



## madhatte

Sorry I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking about S-212 in general and not about Golden Gate in particular. 

Naw, I have taught my own crews. Still, if they stick to the curriculum, they'll at least cover the important stuff. The new version is a lot better than the older one in a lot of ways, not least of which is the fact that they acknowledge and allow the Humboldt and open face cuts now. Those were previously forbidden, which is dumb. I also added the YouTube video from Madsen's showing chain vs chaps vs ham. It's my opinion that every agency should offer S-212 every year due to the liability issued inherent in running saws.


----------



## Kyler Monares

That's exactly my plan. I'm also working on my instructor series so I can start teaching FSTEP classes....

As far as new version vs. old version are you talking the old A,B,C vs Fall1, Fall2, Fall3?
Yeah I heard the humbolt was strictly forbidden in the past? I have also heard the only way to become a Fal1 nowadays is to complete a task book as well as assist teaching an S-212 class?


----------



## madhatte

With "new" vs "old" I'm talking about the 2004 vs 2012 revisions of the S-212 coursework. 

Near as I can figure, the Humboldt wasn't _exactly_ forbidden, but it may as well have been, and depending on leadership still is. There's a card authored by D Dent that is not a USFS publication but is widely distributed through USFS crews that outlines this rule. I'll see if I can find a copy somewhere. 

I'm not sure that the taskbook requires teaching the class, but I think it does still require maintaining a shop and inventory for some length of time. I haven't been allowed to qualify Fal C/ Fall1 yet so I"m not sure the rules. I'll probably be 2/B forever unless somebody higher on the chain of command than myself gets the stones to accept the liability of that signature.


----------



## Kyler Monares

how much more skill does a Fal1 have over a Fal2? ive looked and i cant really find it written down what trees a Fal1 can bring down Vs a Fal2. ive been thumbing through the task book and theres a big difference in the knowledge side of things.


----------



## Cfaller

Generally on tree size, a Fal1 would be able to do 24 dbh and up were a Fal2 is limited to 24dbh and less.


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> how much more skill does a Fal1 have over a Fal2? ive looked and i cant really find it written down what trees a Fal1 can bring down Vs a Fal2. ive been thumbing through the task book and theres a big difference in the knowledge side of things.



Skill, experience & Knowledge: and on a fire the know how to bring the crappy [emoji90] stuff down or too leave it be !!!!


----------



## Metals406

Drptrch said:


> Skill, experience & Knowledge: and on a fire the know how to bring the crappy [emoji90] stuff down or too leave it be !!!!


That's exactly right.


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> how much more skill does a Fal1 have over a Fal2? ive looked and i cant really find it written down what trees a Fal1 can bring down Vs a Fal2. ive been thumbing through the task book and theres a big difference in the knowledge side of things.



http://northzonefallers.com/videos-and-gallery.html

And Treeslingr


----------



## Kyler Monares

Awsome thanks guys! The course I'm taking is a 3 day. Is it safe to say the first day will be classroom. Second day half class room half "shop" time(going over disassembly and chain sharpening) 
Third day is all cutting?


----------



## Drptrch

Kyler Monares said:


> Awsome thanks guys! The course I'm taking is a 3 day. Is it safe to say the first day will be classroom. Second day half class room half "shop" time(going over disassembly and chain sharpening)
> Third day is all cutting?



Yes. Hopefully at least a full day cutting
Mine years ago was one day class/shop. 2nd day field safety, brush cutting and swamping, and cutting line. 
3rd was falling and bucking, observing and mitigating hazards

4th day was offered up as (non class) on private prop in area cutting on veg mngt and thinning project on various terrains


----------



## Kyler Monares

That would be awsome if I could get two days of cutting. I guess it all depends of what land the instructors have access to


----------



## TBS

Tulare county in three rivers has a fire going and the residents are real lucky no homes have burned yet. The fire started just after 9am and was not reported until 11:15. With the traffic in that area how is it no one saw it.

9:21






11:17 just after it was reported.


----------



## Drptrch

LA County doing what they do GOOD [emoji106][emoji106]. Lake Castaic Area - SoCal -



Angeles NF









Turn up the A/C


----------



## madhatte

Just wrapped up 6 days of training in KS with the DOD cadre: S-215 (WUI), which I already had but it's been years, and S-330 (STR/TFL) which is new to me. Next month RX-301 and RX-341. 

"But that's during fire season!" I hear you all exclaim. Yeah, well, the DOD cadre are all from the south so they do the training when it's NOT fire season for them. I'm not complaining (much) -- it's training that's hard to get otherwise, and I get to work with FF's from other installations that I wouldn't otherwise ever meet. It's surprising both how behind the DOD are and how differently each installation runs from the others. Ah, well -- that's why the training push. Someday we'll catch up.


----------



## Drptrch

Big Bear area SoCal 
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/video/channel/322-cbs2-live-newscasts-and-breaking-news/

Crowning and torching
Lower snowpack than Sierras this year. Lots of beetle kill


----------



## Drptrch

Link for the above 

CA-BDF-Holcomb

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...dfire.com/showthread.php?t=58679&share_type=t


----------



## Drptrch

Interesting from Inyo NF 8500' eastern Sierra 

CA-INF-Diaz

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...dfire.com/showthread.php?t=58731&share_type=t

USAF unmanned Drone crashed


----------



## Drptrch

Boys hittin it hard in LA today.
Red Flag warnings and multiple starts 

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/lox/fire_weather/fm.php?special


http://abc7.com/live/


----------



## Drptrch




----------



## Drptrch

A little Arizona fire behavior on the AZ-Frye [emoji91][emoji91][emoji91]

AZ-CNF-Frye

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...ndfire.com/showpost.php?p=232029&share_type=t


----------



## Drptrch

Couple shots from a fire in my County area yesterday.
3 tankers, 2 Helitak and ground resources


----------



## TBS

May we never forget and continue to learn. Trees and grass grow back, houses get rebuilt. Tell your wives, kids, husbands, moms and dads ect that you love em.


----------



## Drptrch

Remember the past, learn for the future !!


----------



## TBS

Shaeffer fire in the sequoia national forest is angry this afternoon.
https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bi.../1/2017,&camera=sherman_peak_1&lastFrame=true

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/58901-CA-SQF-Schaeffer?p=233299#post233299


----------



## TBS

The schaeffer fire is going nuts right now. Looks like it has at least doubled in size yesterday afternoon from 4600 acres.

View a few hours ago from jordan peak lookout.


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> The schaeffer fire is going nuts right now. Looks like it has at least doubled in size yesterday afternoon from 4600 acres.
> 
> View a few hours ago from jordan peak lookout.



Jordan #2 has great view
https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bi...n_peak_2&visible=false&date=20170705&frame=70


----------



## Drptrch

Alamo fire on Central Coast 
CA-SLU-Alamo

This is a Ramp Cam view from Santa Maria tanker base
https://video.nest.com/live/a587XJ


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----------



## 2dogs

The Whittier fire destroyed Boy Scout Camp Rancho Alegre yesterday. I taught a chainsaw safety class there in March for National Camp School. thenaturephotgragher.com has pics from the fire.


----------



## madhatte

Bummer, man. I always hate to see that stuff happen, and always have to gripe that the public has no idea what goes into fire suppression, and the gub mint always sees fuels reduction as an expense rather than as an asset.


----------



## atpchas

One fire, two plumes - the Alamo fire near Santa Barbara
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=90547


----------



## madhatte

RX-301/RX-341 this week. Brutal! In a classroom with a tweaked knee while fires pop up all over? No fair!


----------



## Lowhog

I have 6 acres of Norway pines along the road front property line. I'm always worried some jackass will throw a lit cig out the window during early spring or dry season. what can I do to protect the 25 year old stand? How high should I trim the limbs or won't that help?


----------



## madhatte

The fuels below the trees are a fair piece more critical than the trees themselves. Keep grass short underneath them, and don't let dry leaf litter accumulate. If you're growing them as timber, a pruning prescription may be a sound silvicultural decision as well as a good decision contributing to a Firewise community. Here, have a look.


----------



## Lowhog

madhatte said:


> The fuels below the trees are a fair piece more critical than the trees themselves. Keep grass short underneath them, and don't let dry leaf litter accumulate. If you're growing them as timber, a pruning prescription may be a sound silvicultural decision as well as a good decision contributing to a Firewise community. Here, have a look.


 Pine needle are the problem also.


----------



## Drptrch

Lowhog said:


> I have 6 acres of Norway pines along the road front property line. I'm always worried some jackass will throw a lit cig out the window during early spring or dry season. what can I do to protect the 25 year old stand? How high should I trim the limbs or won't that help?



From CalFire 

http://www.preventwildfireca.org/Field-Guides/


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----------



## Lowhog

Thanks for the links.


----------



## madhatte

Lowhog said:


> Pine needle are the problem also.



I mentioned leaf litter accumulation. That's always a concern.


----------



## Drptrch

Fire ripping near Mariposa, Ca. Southwest of Yosemite. Evans of Mariposa city





Extreme fire behavior 


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----------



## Drptrch

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWrwRRHAUhx/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TBS

I was at the fairgrounds this afternoon helping remove some HIGH $$$dollar$$$ artifacts from our facilities there. The fire is right on the doorstep of mariposa. We passed a fire on 49 in ahwahnee and heard on the scanner about the one in coulterville luckily those are contained.


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> I was at the fairgrounds this afternoon helping remove some HIGH $$$dollar$$$ artifacts from our facilities there. The fire is right on the doorstep of mariposa. We passed a fire on 49 in ahwahnee and heard on the scanner about the one in coulterville luckily those are contained.



Stay safe my friend !!
Our engine was at Aqua Fria doing structure defense and it had already passed at 7:00







this morning fire map, it's past the "You" pin and across the Hwy and river


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----------



## Drptrch

Mariposa-Detwiler fire reeking havoc, multi fronts and evacs taking place.









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----------



## Drptrch

Detwiler Fire, Mariposa
Lucky guy, minor injuries

https://www.google.com/amp/abc30.co...twiler-fire-injured-in-vehicle-crash/2239751/





Captain ejected thru windshield and almost run over

Be careful out there !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2dogs

Today is the one year anniversary of the Soberanes fire here in California. It burned 132,000 acres and cost $236,000,000.00. One fatalility and nearly 60 homes were lost. The winter rains caused debris flows in the burn scar that cost many millions of dollars to repair, most damage to roads are being systematically ignored.

The property I work on 10 miles south of Carmel will be feeling the effects of this fire for years to come. For me it is like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. Once I get near to the bottom of my list of trees fall, a reevaluation adds another few dozen fire damage trees. I'll never reach the bottom of the list.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Today is the one year anniversary of the Soberanes fire here in California. It burned 132,000 acres and cost $236,000,000.00. One fatalility and nearly 60 homes were lost. The winter rains caused debris flows in the burn scar that cost many millions of dollars to repair, most damage to roads are being systematically ignored.
> 
> The property I work on 10 miles south of Carmel will be feeling the effects of this fire for years to come. For me it is like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. Once I get near to the bottom of my list of trees fall, a reevaluation adds another few dozen fire damage trees. I'll never reach the bottom of the list.



Safe work always my friend [emoji106][emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drptrch

Fire bumped out of Div HH across dozer lines today. Increased winds











Video and Audio of event. Unkn poster
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ROCthefires/permalink/1888307214825842/

And North Ops logged 54 new fire events from this evenings lightening crossing Modoc area. NorCal IMT2 assigned





Busy day in-store for tomorrow with recon and staffing ..


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----------



## TBS

Link isn't working for me.


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> Link isn't working for me.



Have to have FB Trying to capture a different way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ted Jenkins

Here in California the weather has turned a little mild with some light rain in here in the mountains. When a bit younger worked for the USDA FS jumping out of aircraft and can understand that it only takes a half of a moment to make a major mistake with your self or those around you. Staying safe must always be a priority. Thanks


----------



## Drptrch

On this day in 2008 a Forest Service FF lost his life in an accident on the Shasta-Trinity NF @ the Iron Complex. The lessons learned from it went on to create the "Dutch Creek Protocol" and began to improve the way we care for our own when injured on an incident. It became an addition to the Pink section of the IRPG and DRIVES the way we communicate and provide medical to those on the line.

http://.blogspot.com/2014/07/honor-through-learning-dutch-creek.html?m=1





https://www.nps.gov/fire/wildland-fire/learning-center/fatality-investigation/andy-palmer.cfm

Ten days later a helicopter shuttling crews would crash on lift off, killing all but 2 aboard, in what is known as the "Iron 44" incident involving a Carson helicopter, DP44, and another fatal outcome. 

Carry on and Be Safe 


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----------



## atpchas

Satellite images of the Detwiler fire
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=90617


----------



## atpchas

Many fires make for a smoky British Columbia
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=90598


----------



## Drptrch

Good Ole' Happy Camp, Ca (Klamath and Six Rivers NF) gearing up for summer fire camps [emoji16][emoji16].
Home of :









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## northmanlogging

Seen on muh way home today mt pilchuck in the back, no more then 6 mi from home. Sorry fer the cruddy image... trying to drive and shift etc.


----------



## madhatte

Looks like OT to me!


----------



## northmanlogging

according to twitler, 5 acres started as a brush pile... who's burning brush right not needs kicked in the ****, but the property borders old growth... so... we see what happens.

Its also on my side of the river and I'm down the valley from it. So good times and stuff.


----------



## Gologit

https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2017/jul/30/orleans-complex-fire-grows-894-acres-still-zero-pe/


----------



## Drptrch

Gologit said:


> https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2017/jul/30/orleans-complex-fire-grows-894-acres-still-zero-pe/



Incident map

http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specif...731_2244_OrleansComplex_CASRF0741_0801Day.pdf


----------



## Drptrch

Type 3 St up on the Modoc now. On the Cove fire west of Adin and Canby









Part of the Modoc Lightning complex


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----------



## RandyMac

The Klamath/Siskiyou/Yolla Bolly mountains are some of my favorites for fires and (cough) the King Range.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Type 3 St up on the Modoc now. On the Cove fire west of Adin and Canby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the Modoc Lightning complex
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk








What unit are you guys from? Seems like you've been bounced all over the state this season.


----------



## 2dogs

I work part time 5 minutes from my house, I arrive around 07:30. Lately I have to turn on the headlights and run the wipers due to the fog. We don't see the sun until noon though the afternoon can be quite warm. It's no wonder Santa Cruz is called the asbestos county.


----------



## madhatte

Pretty smokey hereabout right now. Thanks, Canada!


----------



## Trx250r180

madhatte said:


> Pretty smokey hereabout right now. Thanks, Canada!


Here too ,can barely see the sun ,radio said over 100 fires going in bc right now .


----------



## madhatte

Fri afternoon is supposed to bring a wind shift that oughta push the smoke back up over the mountains.


----------



## northmanlogging

madhatte said:


> Fri afternoon is supposed to bring a wind shift that oughta push the smoke back up over the mountains.



YAY!!!


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> What unit are you guys from? Seems like you've been bounced all over the state this season.



XMR - Marin County local govt


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----------



## Drptrch

Crazy Modoc NF







Rain, lightning and more IA starts today


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----------



## madhatte

I know that feeling.


----------



## RandyMac

The Piss Firs and CalPfyre are clenchin' tight with the down strikes in the Coast Range.


----------



## madhatte

A couple of my past crew are on fires there right now.


----------



## Drptrch

Crossed the border a bit today from Modoc. Dry lightning starts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## atpchas

Smoky west coast:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=90695&src=eoa-iotd

and fire in, of all places, Greenland
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-massive-wildfire-is-now-blazing-in-greenland


----------



## SmithRiverIHC




----------



## northmanlogging

Last I heard suiattle fire over 300 acres 20% contained no significant rain in sight


----------



## SmithRiverIHC

The suiattle fire downsized from type 3 to a type 4 on Tuesday , as far as I know it's 100% lined. All the dnr land is in patrol status and the FS has one engine patrolling their dirt 

Put off some good smoke the first day though


----------



## northmanlogging

uh oh, we might be neighbors...


----------



## TBS

The 600 acre Butte fire in the upper San Joaquin river looking from Mammoth mountain. 

https://www.mammothmountain.com/winter/mountain-information/cams/summit-cam


----------



## TBS

South fork fire near wawona in Yosemite now 400 acres.


----------



## northmanlogging

As heard on FB, Tarzan/greywolf/cody has had to evacuate his family, but he's staying behind to try and save his house... Not sure where exactly they live other then its in montana.


----------



## TBS

Nathan lassley said:


> South fork fire near wawona in Yosemite now 400 acres.
> View attachment 596253
> View attachment 596254



Wawona now under mandatory evacuation since outflows from thunderstorms caused spotting outside containment lines on the west flank. Fire is 2906 acres.


----------



## Drptrch

Up on the Six Rivers - Orleans complex by Merrill Mt now.
Was on the south side of the salmon river in '13 @ Butler fire, Orleans Mt lookout







(Truckee Shots)






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----------



## RandyMac

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5385/
Smoke is very thick here, has been since Friday.
Locals are pissed that the fire wasn't handled back in July.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5385/
> Smoke is very thick here, has been since Friday.
> Locals are pissed that the fire wasn't handled back in July.



That fire took off and Romped the last two days. From 22,000 to 90,000.
Stay out of the way [emoji12]
Heard 3 TF's ( 4 Eng + Tender)of region II (NorCal) OES's sent to assist and couple ST's of CalFire engines from Lassen/Modoc area.
Stay safe all 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## atpchas

*Record-Breaking Smoke Over Canada*
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=90759

and aftermath of the Soberanes fire
*Erosion After the Fire*
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=90769


----------



## TBS

Hope these guys make a quick recovery.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2017/08/22...red-when-gas-can-falls-off-truck-and-ignites/


----------



## madhatte

I-5 between Grand Mound and Maytown. Kind of a big deal. There is a bit of aerial footage from one of the news channels that shows when the hydraulic system on a burning tub grinder let loose; the conveyers all sagged to the ground as the cylinders relaxed. Oddly, I was just thinking as I drove by that patch of freeway a few days ago how easy it would be for a fire to grow there. This one looks to have started on the west side of the freeway on or near the Scatter Creek refuge, and then grew from there and began to spot. Everything east of the freeway is from spotting.


----------



## SmithRiverIHC




----------



## SmithRiverIHC

Chillin with the dig, watching the air show


----------



## SmithRiverIHC

Firing ops from a few weeks ago


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## bnmc98

Conrow fire MT. 3 Miles south of our landing and closing.
Had an area we were hand cutting about a mile from the flame front, moved out of there.


----------



## SmithRiverIHC

Smith putting fire on the ground


----------



## madhatte

Gotta be dry out to try to push fire through salmonberry. Guess it's one of those seasons, huh?


----------



## Drptrch

New start on the Sequoia NF , Hwy 190 near Sequoia Crest , both side of Tule river 1000+ acres 
https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bi...e_peak_3&visible=false&date=20170829&frame=69


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----------



## RandyMac

The Chetco Bar Fire made a 3.5 mile run in 4 hours, burnt nearly 20k acres along the way.
Gotta love crown runs.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> The Chetco Bar Fire made a 3.5 mile run in 4 hours, burnt nearly 20k acres along the way.
> Gotta love crown runs.



Always impressive sight to see, especially first hand


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----------



## Drptrch

Two years ago on the Sequoia, fires edge in orange , moved down and up to DP20 & 21 in 3 hrs






and last one taken from DP21




Jumpers did tactical firing between lookout and east of Dp20




Taken at 1800hrs


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## Drptrch

Calif with 5 Major fires going on right now and starting of heatwave. 



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## RandyMac

Haines level 6 coming right up


----------



## RandyMac

Helena in Trinity is next.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PikeHaleighdee/status/903119204785635328/video/1


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> Helena in Trinity is next.
> https://mobile.twitter.com/PikeHaleighdee/status/903119204785635328/video/1



You in that area ?? And live it from yesterday ??
I did a month on the Iron 08 and 2weeks on the Big Bar 


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## RandyMac

I'm in Del Norte, so far we have smoke and ash, from whichever way the winds blows.
I intermittently fought fires from '74 to '82, with some snag killing duties in '86.
I saw a bunch of action in Humboldt, Mendo, Trinity and the vast pine forests in NE CA.


----------



## RandyMac

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/wfo/eka/h5-loop-vis.html
cough cough snort spit


----------



## Drptrch

Up on the Sequoia NF-Pier fire.
Hwy-190 near Sequoia Crest and Alpine Village











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## RandyMac

Not looking good, http://www.weather.gov/eka/
Red flag right to the beach and on through Monday.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> Not looking good, http://www.weather.gov/eka/
> Red flag right to the beach and on through Monday.



Was a 110-114 F in Petaluma yesterday 20 min from Bodega and 106's in Marin


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## RandyMac

We hit 91F yesterday in Crescent City, 21% RH, 84F today, breezy, heavy smoke with some ash 'flurries'.
Critical fire danger through tomorrow, then things might ease up some.


----------



## SmithRiverIHC

Hooray night shift


----------



## Drptrch

SmithRiverIHC said:


> View attachment 599933
> 
> Hooray night shift



Eclipse ?? What division ?? 


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## PNWfaller509

Stay safe out there fellas


----------



## RandyMac

Caught a break from the smoke and ash, however T-storms may add some problems.


----------



## madhatte

Air seems to be clearing a bit here, too. Less ash, anyway. Supposedly there's gonna be about 1/10" of rain Saturday... which is less than half of what's required to qualify as a wetting rain. So, it'll pretty much immediately evaporate and drain and not affect fire behavior much. Lightning expected near the Cascade crest, but not in the lowlands. Army is activating 200 troops to go to the Umpqua or somewhere else in OR; saw them yesterday trying on their new crappy blue linegear. This probably means OR National Guard is tapped out. I don't know what WA National Guard is up to but if my experience with them in 2015 is any indication, they're kicking ass and taking names. Very professional and motivated lot, impressed me quite a bit.


----------



## RandyMac




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## Drptrch

I met a Two-Time big foot sighter today. He even saw 2 of their offspring.
Nasty little ones he claimed
He also laid in their nest, he's damn near 6 foot and the nest was much bigger [emoji15] 

God ya gotta luv the Klamath and Happy Camp !!

Wouldn't be a season without spending time here. 


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## ArtB

Sunday was first day that sun was not dim orange here all day. Last week here looked like LA in the early 1970's 
Lots of fir needles falling today, DW likes to blow off the drive of needles so they don't get tracked into the house. 
Started but quit, too much ash blowing up yet as still no rain here except a few drops, and that never got thru the trees.


----------



## northmanlogging

over the last week or so I went off to WY to show the wifey where I'm from and stuff...

Anyway all the way there including a night in Idaho, visibility was around 500' down to 200' (which didn't stop anyone from doing 75-85 mph...)

Stupid gps app on muh phone decided that I90 was the quickest way to yellow stone from lewiston id, sent us to missula MT where the smoke was probably the worst...

Back home the smoke cleared out 3-4 hours after we left... meanwhile, bloodshot eyes and sore throats later...

All them windmills in vantage WA we could only see 3-4 of em on the way out.


----------



## bnmc98

been like that for a couple months. We have a cold front moving in. Its going to stay for about 8 months, blew the smoke out today, I about fell over. I could actually see past 5 miles.


----------



## Joe46

Had a bit of rain this morning. More in the forecast. Don't know if it hit the Jolly Mnt. Complex, or Norse Peak. The wind have cleared everything out here south of Seattle.


----------



## 2dogs

northmanlogging said:


> over the last week or so I went off to WY to show the wifey where I'm from and stuff...
> 
> Anyway all the way there including a night in Idaho, visibility was around 500' down to 200' (which didn't stop anyone from doing 75-85 mph...)
> 
> Stupid gps app on muh phone decided that I90 was the quickest way to yellow stone from lewiston id, sent us to missula MT where the smoke was probably the worst...
> 
> Back home the smoke cleared out 3-4 hours after we left... meanwhile, bloodshot eyes and sore throats later...
> 
> All them windmills in vantage WA we could only see 3-4 of em on the way out.



I didn't think Wyoming would let you in the state anymore. Or maybe not let you back out. Is smuggling grisly bears still a crime even if they're family?


----------



## RandyMac

It rained enough here to cut the smoke.


----------



## northmanlogging

2dogs said:


> I didn't think Wyoming would let you in the state anymore. Or maybe not let you back out. Is smuggling grisly bears still a crime even if they're family?



The trick is to do 5 under on the freeway, cause a 96 powersmoke tops out at 75 and the speed limit is 85...

Not stop anywhere for more then 5 minutes.

Absolutely Do Not speak to any family.

Then get lost in the Labonte/Esterbrook canyon area scaring the war dept into a peace negotiation, nearly end up in Nebraska on dirt roads, get yer tent nearly blown away in a thunder storm, ignore said peace negotiation bow to her needs and spend the night at a Holiday Inn under one of my many aliases


----------



## northmanlogging

Then Spend the next 12 hours tying to A make it to Idaho, and B try and find camping at night in the Craters of the Moon National park... fyi there isn't any.

But Carey ID has a wonderful campground at little wood reservoir.


----------



## madhatte

Yeah, what the hell smoke was that Saturday? I never did figure out where it was coming from; winds weren't right to bring it from any of the major fires within 200 miles or so.


----------



## RandyMac

http://forecast.weather.gov/wwamap/wwatxtget.php?cwa=eka&wwa=red flag warning
Hmmmm, what hasn't burned this century? West slope North Sierras, Feather or Yuba rivers maybe.


----------



## Drptrch

Late afternoon start in SoCal. Mild Santa Ana winds. Pushing hard into Corona, Ca in Riverside Cyn.
1000+ acres






Live video via periscope:
https://www.pscp.tv/w/bJhbYDgyOTUzMDR8MU1uR25ta2J2ZG9LT7e4bp3PATNsNbz-StLfspb060W5JvODY1hJHQZLqgdO


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## 2dogs

Today's issue of wildfiretoday.com has a great video of firefighters from American Samoa singing as they walk back to the CCVs. It's really inspirational. The next video was a vid of a Maori wedding where the singer/dancers perform a Haka. Watch that too!


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Today's issue of wildfiretoday.com has a great video of firefighters from American Samoa singing as they walk back to the CCVs. It's really inspirational. The next video was a vid of a Maori wedding where the singer/dancers perform a Haka. Watch that too!



Had them and group from Marianas Islands in Divisions up in the Klamath and Modoc. Always fun, energetic, eager and entertaining. 



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## Drptrch

Sonoma & Napa County lit up right now. 6 large fires. Red Flag and Wind warnings offshore flow. Multi power lines down all over






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## Gologit

http://www.fire.ca.gov/general/firemaps


Anybody heard from Atpchas? How about Tyler at the Park?


----------



## TBS

Tubbs possibly up to 30,000 acres now.

http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/62438-CA-LNU-Tubbs?p=248571#post248571

At least 8 new large fires.


----------



## Blue Oaks

It's gutwrenching to see neighborhood after neighborhood completely destroyed. They had 50+ MPH winds last night.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-napa-fires-20171009-story.html


----------



## jomoco

My thoughts n prayers are certainly going out for them, having survived the 03 Cedar Fire with just a lightly scorched home, and burned down garage.

There's a time to run, and a time to fight, if feasible.

Jomoco


----------



## Blue Oaks

jomoco said:


> My thoughts no prayers are certainly going out for them, having survived the 03 Cedar Fire with just a lightly scorched home, and burned down garage.
> 
> There's a time to run, and a time to fight, if feasible.
> 
> Jomoco



Dang. That's pretty intense. What were the winds like that day?


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Late afternoon start in SoCal. Mild Santa Ana winds. Pushing hard into Corona, Ca in Riverside Cyn.
> 1000+ acres
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Live video via periscope:
> https://www.pscp.tv/w/bJhbYDgyOTUzMDR8MU1uR25ta2J2ZG9LT7e4bp3PATNsNbz-StLfspb060W5JvODY1hJHQZLqgdO
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The canyon fire has rekindled jumped containment lines and has burned structures. 3,000 acres added today.


----------



## jomoco

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang. That's pretty intense. What were the winds like that day?



Only the grace of God kept the winds from blowing more than three days, or it would have burned San Diego county to the beaches.

An extremely humbling and highly surreal thing to experience up close n personal.

And I had the Luck O The Irish workin overtime for me as well.

Saved the house, lost the garage, but was able to get all the motorbikes n wheelers out n away beforehand.

The fire chased my brother n I off my hill crawling on our bellies for our lives.

Took about five minutes to recoup our courage enough to work on Savin the house, and letting the detached garage burn, with all my wonderful sand paddle rims n tires.

A minor loss no doubt, but a truly harrowing three days of wind in a row.

The morning after's like waking up all red eyed n swollen to a smoking moonscape.

My sincere condolences to the families n loved ones of the souls lost in today's infernos.

Jomoco


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> Tubbs possibly up to 30,000 acres now.
> 
> http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/62438-CA-LNU-Tubbs?p=248571#post248571
> 
> At least 8 new large fires.



On the Tubbs fire now . Wind did an incredible amnt of tree damage in the Kenwood and Glen Ellen areas, like s Hurricane aftermath ( maybe they will be able to share the Golf Trophy)
The fires just jumped all over, houses on fire all over , then some not touched, propane tanks blowing off









Coffe Park in Santa Rosa west side of Hwy 101, fire began East of Hwy


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## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang. That's pretty intense. What were the winds like that day?



40-50 mph


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## atpchas

Gologit said:


> http://www.fire.ca.gov/general/firemaps
> 
> 
> Anybody heard from Atpchas? How about Tyler at the Park?


Have been without power or internet for most of 2 days, both came back in the last hour or so. So far we're OK but the Preserve is currently burning. Only time will tell how badly it gets hit or whether we catch a break. It appears the fire came, as all fires have in the last 100+ years at that site, from the Sonoma side. That said, the Partrick fire could also be a threat (to either home or Preserve) if the weather goes against us. 
Don't know how Tyler and Bothe are faring, haven't had the resources to check. If someone knows more, please post. Also, Eccentric is in Sonoma - hope all is well with him.


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## TBS

Calistoga now under full mandatory evacuation.


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## madhatte

Not good.


----------



## RandyMac

A lot of historic places being lost.


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## madhatte

Whoah, Geyserville evacuated now, too. This page seems to be updating regularly.


----------



## Gologit

There are northerly winds forecast for tonight and tomorrow in the Calistoga area. Northerlies could push the fire into Calistoga and on down the valley. Nothing but bad news.


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## madhatte

Here's today's IAP map.


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## RandyMac

Wildfires need an intensity index like Hurricanes and earthquakes, maybe kilotons of energy released per hour.
One look at photos of Santa Rosa and the term kiloton is very apt.
That Tubbs Fire ran 12 miles in three hours, leapt a six lane freeway and started munching on structures.
I am in pure awe.


----------



## ropensaddle

I'm utterly in shock many of the places i visited early summer are now gone. I'm scheduled to be back but my heart goes out to the victims of these fires and I thank God I was not in the motel I stayed in at Santa Rosa during this event as I heard its gone.


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## Drptrch

0700 @ Oakmont this morning with a big wind 


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## RandyMac

Oakmont used to be ''out in the sticks''.
My grandparents lived in El Verano, just west of the town of Sonoma, I know that area well.
I did the fire thing in country like that, Lake, Colusa, Yolo, Mendo and Sonoma counties, it was always a joy.
Give me a timber fire anytime.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> Oakmont used to be ''out in the sticks''.
> My grandparents lived in El Verano, just west of the town of Sonoma, I know that area well.
> I did the fire thing in country like that, Lake, Colusa, Yolo, Mendo and Sonoma counties, it was always a joy.
> Give me a timber fire anytime.



Lovell Valley took a big hit today. 


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## RandyMac

Gonna try to rain Thursday into Fryday, might even happen.


----------



## Drptrch

Interesting interactive structure loss map of recent NorCal fire eventshttp://calfireforestry.maps.arcgis.com/apps/PublicInformation/index.html?appid=5bbcbed430ad45e5a38e6be155ef5fec


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## Drptrch

Well, back to home unit after 11 day stint in NorCal fires. We were originally dispatched to the fires in Napa in a Task Force configuration of a Tactical Water Tender ( Me ) 2 Type 1 and 2 Type 3 engines about an 1 hr away. We encountered fire along the way and spent 4 hours on a 400 acre blaze threatening structures and Hwy 37. We departed and were diverted to tla new start in Sonoma County that would become the Nunns Fire. Like almost all crews sent that night we went nearly 96 hours straight bumping from one place to another, neighborhoods to vineyards to winery’s to planned communities. Some we were able to make a stand and defend what we could, others were to far gone to make a difference. Some we left standing only to return hours later and see them ablaze. Water was a scarcity as there was no power to run pumps or property tanks had melted and drained or they ran low and went dry. Searching for ponds and swimming pools with google maps was invaluable. 
We fired out huge fields and from around houses hoping the wind would cooperate and provide needed buffers, we dropped Trees to stop the ember cast and quickly cleared debris and patio furniture from around houses. 
The magnitude and random destruction of these multiple fires is unbelievable and everyone has a story, some good some bad. We worked along with responders that had lost their own homes and kept on trying to help and save others. A special thanks to the Kenwood and Bennett Valley fire houses for being a haven for 20 min naps and a place to regroup and focus on the next task. They kept snacks and coffee going 24/7, which kept us going.
In all 40-50 local responders lost their homes, 7 from my area from Chiefs to Firefighters. 
It was an incredible wild ride and we’re home safely and I’m thankful for that. 
With that prepare your homes, have a plan and a back-up plan because it can happen to anyone, anywhere and any time. Nature can be beautiful but unforgiving.......
Cheers to all







WT-15 nicknamed “Fury” on the fire [emoji91] 



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## ropensaddle

To all you California firefighters ole rope tips his hat to ya'all ! I'm back up here doing my job but have witnessed you guys in action and wow is all I can say!


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## atpchas

Are these "fire guy" markings? If so, what do the signify? We are finally getting access to the Preserve on the Napa-Sonoma border and see these marks, wonder what they denote.


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## atpchas

Below is a link to a movie I made by filming roughly 1500 still photos (stepped through very quickly) produced by a game camera at the Archer Taylor Preserve from shortly before the fire came through to 10/21/2017. Ignore the background sound or mute it. The large fire that develops at the left side of the screen is a pile of fir logs from trees that fell last winter. We were planning to move them to a less intrusive spot. The fire took care of that task for us. I guess every cloud has a silver lining. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lfg7v0pci4ox0ya/GM fire video - 1.MP4?dl=0


----------



## Drptrch

atpchas said:


> Are these "fire guy" markings? If so, what do the signify? We are finally getting access to the Preserve on the Napa-Sonoma border and see these marks, wonder what they denote.



Haven’t seen the paint markings before, but Trees are painted for thinning.
The orange “tape” is Hazard tree flagging commonly used on fires, then evaluated by a felling Boss for validity.

@2dogs mite have more insight being a Hazard tree dropper ))

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## Drptrch

Tapatalk




Before shot : 6 homes and 4 large barn/outbuildings and a winery on the far right side of photo up hill side hillside




A little night time Tactical coaxing w/fire and some very happy home owners






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## madhatte

atpchas said:


> Are these "fire guy" markings? If so, what do the signify? We are finally getting access to the Preserve on the Napa-Sonoma border and see these marks, wonder what they denote.



Those marks don't like like anything I've seen on any thinning -- usually we mark only trees to be cut, at breast height and dots on the stump. Sometimes it's the opposite -- all trees except the marked ones are to be taken. Given the "Killer Tree" tape and the rankings, I'm gonna guess that those are all hazards, the killer trees are especially hazardous, the numbers signify priority, and the one with the circle and X is not to be cut.


----------



## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Haven’t seen the paint markings before, but Trees are painted for thinning.
> The orange “tape” is Hazard tree flagging commonly used on fires, then evaluated by a felling Boss for validity.
> 
> @2dogs mite have more insight being a Hazard tree dropper ))
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Those paint marks are specific to northern Collyfornia. The "P" stands for someone pooped next to that tree. The circle with crosshairs is where the flying saucer is supposed to land. Glad I could be of help.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Glad I could be of help.



You are a truly essential resource.


----------



## TBS

The burnover on the 94 big creek fire.


----------



## Drptrch

On a good note following Norcal fires:

The Band Together Bay Area benefit concert at AT&T Park on Thursday generated $17 million, bringing the total raised to $23 million for those affected by the firestorm that swept through Northern California, officials announced Friday.

More money for the Tipping Point Emergency Relief Fund was expected to come in as the Band Together Bay Area coalition continues to count money raised by selling merchandise and streaming the concert online via sites such as Twitter and YouTube.

With a lineup that featured popular Bay Area acts Metallica, Dead & Company, G-Eazy, Rancid and Raphael Saadiq (along with visitors Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds), the sold-out concert drew more than 40,000 people to the ballpark. Some 6,500 tickets were donated to first responders and residents of the areas hardest hit by the fire.


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## Drptrch

And a Great Project and “Over the Top” showing happening right now in Santa Rosa. I believe close to a 1000 Bike’s were collected, cleaned, tuned-up and donated to those affected.
Huge shout-out to Southern Marin FD and countless others for this effort.
PD




. Q



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## Drptrch

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## atpchas

atpchas said:


> Are these "fire guy" markings? If so, what do the signify? We are finally getting access to the Preserve on the Napa-Sonoma border and see these marks, wonder what they denote.


I found out what the P1 and P2 marks on trees denote. PG&E arborists and foresters assessed trees near power lines. P1 trees are deemed dead or dying and to be removed immediately. P2 trees have "secondary priority." Also, trees marked FP1 or FP2 will be trimmed. 
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7649599-181/pge-aims-to-remove-25000?artslide=0


----------



## DavdH

atpchas said:


> I found out what the P1 and P2 marks on trees denote. PG&E arborists and foresters assessed trees near power lines. P1 trees are deemed dead or dying and to be removed immediately. P2 trees have "secondary priority." Also, trees marked FP1 or FP2 will be trimmed.
> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7649599-181/pge-aims-to-remove-25000?artslide=0


Thanks, we have lots of trees marked and It is good to know the plan. Looks to me like they could remove a lot more, most of the P1 are just stems with the limbs burned completely off. They (we) have some time, not like dead snags yet. What a mess.


----------



## madhatte

Thanks, Charlie! It all makes sense now!


----------



## TBS

Sad news for those that are active members of the wlf hotlist forum like me.
http://www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist-down/#comment-4262


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> Sad news for those that are active members of the wlf hotlist forum like me.
> http://www.wildlandfire.com/hotlist-down/#comment-4262



Bummer. Thought something was up. One of there trucks has been parked in a lot in Petaluma since the recent fires. Thought that was strange, but thought maybe still assisting with Repair, rehab and housing loss maps. [emoji24]


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## Drptrch

December Rip in Ojai, Ventura County Evan parts of Sant Paula heading towards Ventura city.









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## Drptrch

45000 acres overnight. Into Ventura city 
http://wildfiretoday.com/






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## Drptrch

Heading south for the Annual migration, Merry Christmas all !!


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## TBS

The creek fire north of los Angeles has burned 11000 acres.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/la.cur...reek-fire-evacuation-zones-centers-map-sylmar

We've got a very large prescribed burn going on the bass lake ranger district in Madera county.


----------



## Drptrch

That be Magic Mountain in the foreground. Interstate 5 at bottom of Tejon Pass ( Grapevine)


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## jomoco

Doesn't look good if these fires merge n march west.




Thoughts n prayers gong out to all my fellow Californians in it's path.

Jomoco


----------



## TBS

Nathan lassley said:


> The creek fire north of los Angeles has burned 11000 acres.
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/la.cur...reek-fire-evacuation-zones-centers-map-sylmar
> 
> We've got a very large prescribed burn going on the bass lake ranger district in Madera county.



The little rain we had wasn't enough to keep the piles within their lines when 40 mph winds came giving about 100 bonus acres. Looked impressive for a December fire in the Sierra national forest.


----------



## Drptrch

Thomas Fire 230,000 acres and still moving






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## atpchas

I hadn't thought about CO as a wildfire combustion product....

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=91427


----------



## Drptrch

Sad news. CalFire MVU Engineer LODD on thomas Fire near Fillmore, Ca. 
New evac orders in that area today. 
Details pending


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## 2dogs

Engineer Cory Iverson. Your brothers and sisters will take it from here.


----------



## RandyMac

He got over run.

Cal Fire San Diego Unit Fire Apparatus Engineer Cory Iverson died from thermal injuries and smoke inhalation, an autopsy performed Friday found, according to the Ventura County Medical Examiner Office.


----------



## Drptrch

Big Iron workin the “Thomas Fire, 





Checkout the freeway going up the other side [emoji106][emoji106]


Erik


----------



## 2dogs

The local dozer club out for a Sunday drive.


----------



## madhatte

3 blades wide is pretty impressive!


----------



## Ted Jenkins

Back in my USDA days about 40 years ago my district was called to deal with a growing fog layer in Northern California most of my crew rode a bouncing bus to the Staging site, but we had a DC-3 that no one believed that we could get along with out. So the over head told the tractor boys put in a little air strip and by morning sure enough there it was fully loaded with all kinds of equipment. Thanks


----------



## Drptrch

6 blades + on parts of the Stanislaus Rim fire a few years back







AKA - “Dodge Ridge” bypass 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Nice park. When are they gonna install the campsites?


----------



## Ted Jenkins

One time when working in the Ochoco National Forest. After grading a little landing strip we had portable showers a small store a trailer mounted grill enough camping spots for 2,000 and a pile of 20,000 sleeping bags most new in just 30 hours. My pilot only allowed the same amount of equipment that I jumped off with to get back on with. I did manage to grab some shake and bake tents though. After 15 days the tractor crews started burying all the equipment. Thanks


----------



## Drptrch

Ted Jenkins said:


> One time when working in the Ochoco National Forest. After grading a little landing strip we had portable showers a small store a trailer mounted grill enough camping spots for 2,000 and a pile of 20,000 sleeping bags most new in just 30 hours. My pilot only allowed the same amount of equipment that I jumped off with to get back on with. I did manage to grab some shake and bake tents though. After 15 days the tractor crews started burying all the equipment. Thanks



Govt at work. That’s like the 50,000 tons of ice unused after Katrina but stored for a year [emoji13][emoji13]


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Merry Christmas All and a Safe New Year !!


Erik


----------



## 2dogs

Merry Christmas Drip and everyone else here. 

Hey could you do me a favor? I would like to see what kind of heavy equipment problems have occurred on the Thomas and other fires. A friend of mine who is contracting one dozer told me last week there has been around ten roll overs, a couple burned, a masticator burned, a couple excavators roll, one burned. Is there a way to find this on the internet? Even my cats walking on my computer have found where the info might be. How about you?


----------



## TBS




----------



## atpchas

Striking visualization of Thomas fire:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=91466


----------



## madhatte

That is a sobering and impressive image. As a GIS guy, though, I wonder how they did that narrow focal length effect where the distant background is out of focus? I could use that.


----------



## atpchas

Thomas fire - rather hellish, no?

Firefighters monitor a section of the Thomas Fire along the 101 freeway, north of Ventura, Calif., on Dec. 7.


----------



## madhatte

That is an excellent picture. I do wish the FF's hadn't allowed themselves to be photographed with their shirts untucked and no shelter on their person, though. I'm guessing they didn't know there was a camera there.


----------



## Drptrch

FWIW -Shirts are tucked , Jackets (Ca) are not. 
Probably residual from a firing op. If they on a roadway I imagine their line gear is close. 
Low intensity and the roadway is the TRA 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Oh, I know. I just have to worry about appearances because it's always my ass that gets chewed when my crew is slacking. Habit, yo.


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> Oh, I know. I just have to worry about appearances because it's always my ass that gets chewed when my crew is slacking. Habit, yo.



The joys of being part of management, no?


----------



## madhatte

MANAGEMENT?!? I'll have you know that I'm no dang dirty manager. I'm part of Leadership. It's different, I swear.


----------



## Drptrch

Sonoma/Napa Dispatch 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155203259718170&id=99330038169


Erik


----------



## madhatte

SO MUCH RESPECT for that dispatcher. So calm in a situation that only keeps getting worse.


----------



## Drptrch

That was Sonoma County Dispatch, Cal Fire Lake/Napa/Sonoma was running a regional Dispatch also.
My county had 20 engines dispatched by 12:00 with 12 more in the morning. That’s an entire shift. My Task Force worked a 500 acre veg fire enroute for 3 hrs threatening a major West to East travel route 

My station in Marin, 42 miles away was getting ash fall out as we were leaving 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Dang, yo. Some days are just more hoppin' than others, I guess.


----------



## jomoco

What do you guys think about strategically buried ten thousand gallon water tanks as fortification lines against wind driven wild fires. 

That new Liebherr 44's got a 120 inch Diameter drill bit!



Jomoco


----------



## madhatte

jomoco said:


> What do you guys think about strategically buried ten thousand gallon water tanks as fortification lines against wind driven wild fires.



Water is for mop-up.


----------



## Drptrch

jomoco said:


> What do you guys think about strategically buried ten thousand gallon water tanks as fortification lines against wind driven wild fires.
> 
> That new Liebherr 44's got a 120 inch Diameter drill bit!
> 
> 
> 
> Jomoco




Not exactly following your thought. And what’s relevance of video ??


Erik


----------



## jomoco

Water storage supplies buttressing city n critical infrastructure parameters.

The drill rig's prolly the best means of doin it efficiently.

Drill a hole, drop a tank in it, fill er up in winter, cap it off. The waters there n waitin. All yu needs a portable pump n nozzle.

May not be the most intelligent design, but it beats the hell outta high n dry n crispy in a crunch!

Plan A , plan B n C, to avoid gettin F'd?

Jomoco


----------



## TBS

Not a bad idea but the problem with drilling is how deep you have to go. Lots of cities have below ground storage tanks so putting them in for fire suppression during the construction and planning phase of a subdivision would be fairly simple but more difficult with existing subdivisions.

One thing these fires have shown is that communities and some property owners need to take some better measures for defense against wildfires.


----------



## jomoco

I been thinkin bout an umbilical fire bug on a reel, an all terrain tracked tank, fed by 3 inch water hose, with 600 feet of reach, a tank on fishin pole, remote control, oozing water constantly, driven right into the heart of the fire line, to dampen the party.

The reel station'd be fed by however many water tanker trucks it takes to keep the bug wet.

There are quite a few tracked vehicles that'll keep right on a goin upside down, sideways, every whichaway!

Drive right into the fuggin heart O the matter!

What say you guvner?

Jomoco


----------



## jomoco

Too much Harry Nilsson?

Too much second hand smoke?



Jomoco


----------



## TBS

The other problems is these fires were spotting 1-2 miles ahead of themselves so that makes keeping up during initial attack very difficult, access, community fire planning, available equipment, and response times are major factors.


----------



## Drptrch

Nathan lassley said:


> The other problems is these fires were spotting 1-2 miles ahead of themselves so that makes keeping up during initial attack very difficult, access, community fire planning, available equipment, and response times are major factors.



True to that. Sonoma had 50-70 mph winds. It was just blowing thru and bye. We lost a whole hillside just trying to reposition to fire it off


Erik


----------



## jomoco

Sorta makes strategically positioned water reserve lines more desirable to dampen locations tinderbox dry in the winds path, IMO.

Containment lines, rich in water reserves.

Damn near Forest irrigation systems, redistributing and storing emergency water reserves, for dry crispy hot summer relief.

Lotsa holes piping valves n buried tanks, topped with fancy sprinklers n nozzles.

Symbiotic forest systems........

Jomoco


----------



## madhatte

Problem with water as a firefighting agent is that it drains and evaporates. Also, it only goes where you put it. An absence of fuel is a far more sustainable goal tactically. I say again: water is for mop-up.


----------



## jomoco

So you don't think a remote control umbilical fire bug tank, droolin n sprayin water, onto the base of the fire line itself's logical?

In many ways it makes more sense than droppin it helter skelter from the sky IMO.

Such a bug could be fed from reel reservoir with far more water, for far longer, than four helicopters workin together.

What's the typical load in gallons you guys drop so heroically n effectively these days?

Jomoco


----------



## TBS

Helicopters don't need an access point only a water source and a place to land for fuel or drop of a helitack crew, sometimes the crew rappels from the copter.


----------



## Drptrch

jomoco said:


> So you don't think a remote control umbilical fire bug tank, droolin n sprayin water, onto the base of the fire line itself's logical?
> 
> In many ways it makes more sense than droppin it helter skelter from the sky IMO.
> 
> Such a bug could be fed from reel reservoir with far more water, for far longer, than four helicopters workin together.
> 
> What's the typical load in gallons you guys drop so heroically n effectively these days?
> 
> Jomoco



It’ll only take ya one tree to F’ya up


Erik


----------



## northmanlogging

madhatte said:


> Problem with water as a firefighting agent is that it drains and evaporates. Also, it only goes where you put it. An absence of fuel is a far more sustainable goal tactically. I say again: water is for mop-up.


just gonna leave that here for emphasis.

Trees, never read any plans, or blue prints, Fire only eats things, no time to stop and read it first.

"Best laid plans of mice and all"


----------



## northmanlogging

Anyone remember the Siegfried line? French spent a bunch of money on it as a defense against another world war, then the Nazis just drove around it and locked most of the French army inside... 

Fire does the same thing.


----------



## jomoco

That'd depend on the power of the reel, tensile capacity of the umbilical, shape n ruggedness of the remote bug, IMO.

Jomoco


----------



## madhatte

Look, water is useful, to be sure. But -- if your whole plan relies on water? You don't have much of a plan at all. Give me a dozer, or a handcrew, or even just a driptorch and a paved road, any time, over a plan where I'm expected to hold a moving flame front with nothing but water.


----------



## 2dogs

I've been spending the last month working with Cal Fire offender crews on a veg management project about an hour from my house. What a great group of guys to work with as always. Since I get home well after dark I really don't feel like getting on AS. Check the e-mail, eat, shower, go to bed. So I found this fire thread that didn't make any sense to me till I saw an ignored member was the last poster on night. 

Self propelled track vehicles that will fight fire with water from a buried water tank? Yeah. Go smoke some more weed buddy.

50 feet of 3" hose weighs around 300 lbs full if memory serves me so "dragging" 600' equals 3,600 lbs. Oh maybe you meant the hose would be empty on a reel. Is the reel on the crawler or at the pump house? Who operates this system, a firefighter stationed in a closet 9 months a year? Duh.

On the other hand this is right up the alley for liberal left leaning dope smoking Californians. Give Moonbeam a call. The plumbers' union too. At $500,000.00 per tank there is taxpayer money ripe for the picking. And when the fire doesn't cooperate and burn the next ridge over, well just dig some more holes.


----------



## 2dogs

On the serious side this little bit of rain we have been having here on the central coast reminds me of last year after the Soberanes fire. Debris flows! 0.7" of rain per hour for 15 minutes will cause debris flows to begin. If anyone is working rehab on any of the fires make sure you are employing LCES if it is raining. Cody and I were temporarily trapped on the wrong side of a debris flow. If he wasn't driving the backhoe we would have had a very long walk to the nearest phone.

Debris flows can sometimes be heard a long ways off. If you think you might be hearing one of if trees are moving down slope while standing then don't hesitate... leave!


----------



## madhatte

Solid advice. Saturated soil is dangerous enough on a slope, but scorched saturated soil is far worse.


----------



## Drptrch

It’s Like a Volcanic Ash flow. No surface tension, tons of viscosity and density


Erik


----------



## 2dogs

Hydrophobicity. This is the biggest word I can say without getting another lung full of air. The oils and waxes in burning vegetation eventually settle down and into the top layer of the soil and create a water resistant layer. Once enough rain has fallen this hydrophobic layer will slip as a sheet of soil and ash and begin the debris flow. The underlying soil is now exposed to rain drops and can slide very easily. (Always call these soil movements debris flows and NEVER landslides. Big difference when it comes to insurance claims and grants. Landslides are acts of God.) Debris flows can travel for miles, likely into the ocean in Collyfornia. I would guess many tons of straw has already been applied to slopes to prevent raindrops from falling on bare soil. Better yet is a native grass/mulch mix. 

There are great old and new videos on youtube that are just right for a rainy day. And don't forget the videos proving that Trump used directed energy weapons and lasers from the sky to cause these fire.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> And don't forget the videos proving that Trump used directed energy weapons and lasers from the sky to cause these fire.



I'm surprised that he found time for that. He's usually too busy making chemtrails.


----------



## Drptrch

US&R TF-1 mobilizing to the Southland for Thompson Fire slides.


Erik


----------



## bigcountry88

Just found this thread. I’m a Wildland F.F. here in FL with aspirations to go Fed. How hard would it be to transition into a full time permanent gig with the Feds? I have a MIL background as well


----------



## Drptrch

bigcountry88 said:


> Just found this thread. I’m a Wildland F.F. here in FL with aspirations to go Fed. How hard would it be to transition into a full time permanent gig with the Feds? I have a MIL background as well



https://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/employment/

Call up and visit a forest and speak with an FMO 



Erik


----------



## madhatte

bigcountry88 said:


> Just found this thread. I’m a Wildland F.F. here in FL with aspirations to go Fed. How hard would it be to transition into a full time permanent gig with the Feds? I have a MIL background as well



I'm a full-time Fed. Best advice I can offer is to check usajobs.com early and often -- all federal hiring is done through that website now, which sucks, because it's super remote and formal and takes forever.


----------



## Czech_Made

northmanlogging said:


> Anyone remember the Siegfried line? French spent a bunch of money on it as a defense against another world war, then the Nazis just drove around it and locked most of the French army inside...
> 
> Fire does the same thing.



Not to sound like an ass, but Siegfried line was German - GIs had to fight to cross it in 44-45. What you meant is the Maginot line, that was French.


----------



## northmanlogging

Czech_Made said:


> Not to sound like an ass, but Siegfried line was German - GIs had to fight to cross it in 44-45. What you meant is the Maginot line, that was French.


Well i did leave a question mark as i wasn't sure.

Schools around here don't even teach about that stuff. 

Point is the French put all their eggs in one basket, then got surrounded when it didn't work, and had to surrender.


----------



## Czech_Made

Oh, missed that ? my bad. 

We had our own version of Maginot line - only to surrender it after the Munich agreement.


----------



## RandyMac

Marginal Line, get it right.


----------



## 2dogs

Nate there was another tree strike on a crew leader in Louisiana on January 24th. Guy got lucky, he turned and deflected the blow to his left shoulder. Nothing broken.

This was an Rx burn where a small snag burned through at the base. I'll be working with inmate crews for four days later this month. No LZ but we are close to a highway. Long lining is possible but sure not desirable. I'll be teaching a chainsaw class at this location this month too.

Do you guys use a 9 line or some other med form?

wildfirelessons.net


----------



## Drptrch

Hit by snag
2012 Chips Fire Plumas NF 
6 weeks there as a Medic

Lessons learned
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/Hig...tFileKey=1aa953d5-fa69-46de-a71c-fe4b22dc7ad8


Erik


----------



## northmanlogging

owww!

That sucks...


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Nate there was another tree strike on a crew leader in Louisiana on January 24th. Guy got lucky, he turned and deflected the blow to his left shoulder. Nothing broken.
> 
> This was an Rx burn where a small snag burned through at the base. I'll be working with inmate crews for four days later this month. No LZ but we are close to a highway. Long lining is possible but sure not desirable. I'll be teaching a chainsaw class at this location this month too.
> 
> Do you guys use a 9 line or some other med form?
> 
> wildfirelessons.net



Dang, yo. I hate to hear about those incidents. 

We *sort of* use a 9 line. If we call 911, the paramedics use it. If we can handle it in-house, we use a CA-1. If the injured can make it to the hospital themselves, we use the CA-1. If the paramedics show up, we still have to do a CA-1. In any case, the attending doctor will fill out a CA-20 and the claims will be processed based on whatever paperwork is filed.


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Dang, yo. I hate to hear about those incidents.
> 
> We *sort of* use a 9 line. If we call 911, the paramedics use it. If we can handle it in-house, we use a CA-1. If the injured can make it to the hospital themselves, we use the CA-1. If the paramedics show up, we still have to do a CA-1. In any case, the attending doctor will fill out a CA-20 and the claims will be processed based on whatever paperwork is filed.











Erik




That’s from The Chips Fire, Div G, Humbug Valley and Yellow Creek.


----------



## Ted Jenkins

Here in Southern California we have issues very little water or rain. Most already know that. A few months ago we had about 600,000 acres burned with about 100 lost lives. The total combined cost of the larger fires is at least $800,000,000 or more by a very conservative estimate, An area of dozens of square miles of forested area burned three years ago while it took two days for management to come up with a plan before any action took place. That only took 1500 FF personnel and $27,000,000 to control.

Recently I had a encounter with Cal Fire and was wondering if most or all personnel was as stupid as it seems or is management filled with just plain idiots. In my area there are many multi square mile parcels of land that are state county or federal land. I usually go to these areas to take my dog walking with one or more friends most late afternoons. We have problems with meth heads camping out in the forested areas because they can and nobody stops them. My friend calls me to tell me that a fire broke out where some meth heads were living and might need to change our walking plans. It will be put out by the time we go I am sure. An hour latter we go and a quarter mile down the trail is seven strike teams from Cal Fire assembled. As the entire teams were just standing around talking with no action so I walk up to the commander and tell him it would be a good idea to go ahead and put the fire out since the wind could kick up at any time. He says we can not because they do not have enough fire hose to reach the fire from the closest access. Then he tells me they asked for a crew with tractor and chain saws to get them a little closer. I tell him that I will volunteer my services if necessary to put the fire out. He says what could I do so I tell him I will grab a chain saw and a back pack out of my truck 10 minutes away. On second thought why not just send two or three guys with back packs for now and I will help mop up. He looked at me like I just killed his mother and grandmother on the same day. He says they are not set up with back packs. He tells me not to help and I tell l him this is where I live it is important to me. I said OK you know there is a old horizontal well near by to transfer water for your needs then he says he was new and did not know the layout. So I showed him where the well was and he said they had it under control. This is the same problem that I encountered when I was in the FF field. The time me and my crew was asked to be ready in 45 minutes to fly to a major fire at 2 AM and then camp out at the airport for two days. And the time two guys argued about who had the most seniority so who was in charge while 500 FF folks stood around doing nothing. Thanks


----------



## 2dogs

Ted Jenkins said:


> Here in Southern California we have issues very little water or rain. Most already know that. A few months ago we had about 600,000 acres burned with about 100 lost lives. The total combined cost of the larger fires is at least $800,000,000 or more by a very conservative estimate, An area of dozens of square miles of forested area burned three years ago while it took two days for management to come up with a plan before any action took place. That only took 1500 FF personnel and $27,000,000 to control.
> 
> Recently I had a encounter with Cal Fire and was wondering if most or all personnel was as stupid as it seems or is management filled with just plain idiots. In my area there are many multi square mile parcels of land that are state county or federal land. I usually go to these areas to take my dog walking with one or more friends most late afternoons. We have problems with meth heads camping out in the forested areas because they can and nobody stops them. My friend calls me to tell me that a fire broke out where some meth heads were living and might need to change our walking plans. It will be put out by the time we go I am sure. An hour latter we go and a quarter mile down the trail is seven strike teams from Cal Fire assembled. As the entire teams were just standing around talking with no action so I walk up to the commander and tell him it would be a good idea to go ahead and put the fire out since the wind could kick up at any time. He says we can not because they do not have enough fire hose to reach the fire from the closest access. Then he tells me they asked for a crew with tractor and chain saws to get them a little closer. I tell him that I will volunteer my services if necessary to put the fire out. He says what could I do so I tell him I will grab a chain saw and a back pack out of my truck 10 minutes away. On second thought why not just send two or three guys with back packs for now and I will help mop up. He looked at me like I just killed his mother and grandmother on the same day. He says they are not set up with back packs. He tells me not to help and I tell l him this is where I live it is important to me. I said OK you know there is a old horizontal well near by to transfer water for your needs then he says he was new and did not know the layout. So I showed him where the well was and he said they had it under control. This is the same problem that I encountered when I was in the FF field. The time me and my crew was asked to be ready in 45 minutes to fly to a major fire at 2 AM and then camp out at the airport for two days. And the time two guys argued about who had the most seniority so who was in charge while 500 FF folks stood around doing nothing. Thanks



I'm calling BS here. You provide the names and dates of the "incidents" you are referring to and I'll look them up and see what really happened. I have no problem apologizing if I'm wrong. 

BTW please tell us about your experience as a fire fighter. Tell us about "my crew". and the time when 500 fire fighters were standing around "doing nothing".

And thanks for telling the "stupid" Cal Fire personnel about the water source. That is a huge help. Those seven strike teams will use lots of water.


----------



## TBS

2dogs said:


> I'm calling BS here. You provide the names and dates of the "incidents" you are referring to and I'll look them up and see what really happened. I have no problem apologizing if I'm wrong.
> 
> BTW please tell us about your experience as a fire fighter. Tell us about "my crew". and the time when 500 fire fighters were standing around "doing nothing".
> 
> And thanks for telling the "stupid" Cal Fire personnel about the water source. That is a huge help. Those seven strike teams will use lots of water.



I have definitely seen what Ted is talking about while doing project work with cdrc/calfire crews. What I've seen is an arrogance problem with the younger generation in calfire. I've worked with calfire/cdrc inmate crews every year since 2005 mostly working with crews from miramonte camp and the more experienced captains are always more approachable and give their crews good instructions on what I need done, the younger captains I've worked with I find sitting at the buggy, on their phones, texting, or playing games waiting for a tone out to a fire while the crew is on the other side of the hill out of site. When you ask them to have the crew do something or tell them what needs to be done they get kind of a pissed off attitude like you are inconveniencing them.....at that point i end up running the crews which takes me away from my job.
We had an escaped prescribed burn in December called the ponderosa near cascadel woods, a number of residents reported it to the fire station in the area which had a good view of the fire, the response was its a prescribed burn(in 45mph wind?) and that not our jurisdiction. These residents had recently dealt with the mission fire. To me thats just being an *******.


----------



## TBS

Harlow fire 1961 20,000 acres in two hours.


----------



## madhatte

Ted Jenkins said:


> wondering if most or all personnel was as stupid as it seems or is management filled with just plain idiots.



It's called "Chain of Command". Concerned citizens aren't part of it. Tactics and strategy are processes, and cowboying up gets people killed. Have patience. Fire folks are doing the best they can to manage many operational objectives at once; rest assured that your house or property will be one of them but will very seldom be the only one.



Ted Jenkins said:


> We have problems with meth heads camping out in the forested areas because they can and nobody stops them.



Public land, not otherwise posted "no camping", is a place where any US citizen can camp for up to two weeks without further license. You don't want to kick up that fuss because if your "meth heads" have this right taken from them, so do you. Poking the government bear is a bad idea, as it is 100% reactive and 0% proactive.



Ted Jenkins said:


> I said OK you know there is a old horizontal well near by to transfer water for your needs then he says he was new and did not know the layout. So I showed him where the well was



That's the sort of local knowledge that fire folks need. If you can offer this knowledge, please do so ASAP and then get out of the way . Babysitting civilians is a dangerous time-sink.



TheBrushSlasher said:


> at that point i end up running the crews which takes me away from my job.



I do hope that you're exaggerating. I can't think of a whole lot of circumstances where this isn't illegal at worst and dangerous at best. Don't do that.


----------



## TBS

Its legal on our agencies land during project work because a park employee presence is required due to the general public being in the area. When we get crews with these captains contraband drops become a big issue because the inmates bring there illegal cell phones make calls once they get out of site. When I see this going on I get a ranger over to deal with it because the captain isn't going to contact a ranger because he doesn't want to deal with the paperwork.


----------



## Gologit

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Its legal on our agencies land during project work because a park employee presence is required due to the general public being in the area. When we get crews with these captains contraband drops become a big issue because the inmates bring there illegal cell phones make calls once they get out of site. When I see this going on I get a ranger over to deal with it because the captain isn't going to contact a ranger because he doesn't want to deal with the paperwork.




What agency are you with and where are you based?


----------



## 2dogs

Nathan please include your job title. I have a good working relationship with the offender crew Captains here. I'm quite sure they will want to talk to you regarding these captains that don't look after their crew and sit in the buggy and play games while you are "running the crew". Believe me, heads will roll. Unless you just slinging BS.


----------



## madhatte

My thoughts exactly. I'm not going to take it laying down if somebody rolls in and presumptively "runs" my crew and neither will any crew I've ever led. This has the faintest whiff of Alternative Fact, I think.


----------



## TBS

California department of parks and recreation. Those heads have already rolled thanks to our superintendent Kent Gresham.


----------



## northmanlogging

Me not being from Caliphonia,

But what business does parks and rec have anywhere near a fire?

I was under the impression that Cal Fire, DNR, or the Forest Service where in charge of all fires in Caliphonia.

But like I said I'm not from caliphornia, just going off reading this thread for the last few years, and trusting Golgit, 2dogs, and madhatte, as well as many others some that even work for CalFire, some work for the forest service.


----------



## TBS

Inmate crews do project work for us, doing fire clearances, removing trees, building fences, but mostly lots of weedeating.


----------



## RandyMac

I think the vaunted ''3 Stooges'' award goes to the USFS for deciding to have a circle jerk for months after the Chetco Bar Fire started and acted all surprised when it blew up.


----------



## Drptrch

....Looks like it’s “heating” up to be the Worst fire season “Ever” again... ;P



Erik


----------



## northmanlogging

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Inmate crews do project work for us, doing fire clearances, removing trees, building fences, but mostly lots of weedeating.



Ya and? Still not answering what parks and rec is doing on an active fire? Let alone "running" crews your not assigned too.


----------



## TBS

I never once said anything about me or my department being on a fire, I said project work but i should have stated that in my first post about this issue.


----------



## madhatte

At the Fed level, Parks is a wildfire agency. At least in WA, Parks is not a wildfire agency. I know some CA Parks folks. They are not fire people. "Project Work" that involves fire is not the jurisdiction of non-fire people. We work hard to achieve and maintain our qualifications. It is not the policy of any NWCG partner agencies to allow non-fire qualified personnel to lead fire crews. This is consistent throughout the US and is basic ICS. I would very much like to hear an explanation of these discrepancies.


----------



## northmanlogging

TheBrushSlasher said:


> I have definitely seen what Ted is talking about while doing project work with cdrc/calfire crews. What I've seen is an arrogance problem with the younger generation in calfire. I've worked with calfire/cdrc inmate crews every year since 2005 mostly working with crews from miramonte camp and the more experienced captains are always more approachable and give their crews good instructions on what I need done, the younger captains I've worked with I find sitting at the buggy, on their phones, texting, or playing games waiting for a tone out to a fire while the crew is on the other side of the hill out of site. When you ask them to have the crew do something or tell them what needs to be done they get kind of a pissed off attitude like you are inconveniencing them.....at that point i end up running the crews which takes me away from my job.
> We had an escaped prescribed burn in December called the ponderosa near cascadel woods, a number of residents reported it to the fire station in the area which had a good view of the fire, the response was its a prescribed burn(in 45mph wind?) and that not our jurisdiction. These residents had recently dealt with the mission fire. To me thats just being an *******.



When you say you worked with calfire inmate crews, that implies you worked on a fire.


----------



## Drptrch

Fellas. Inmate crews in Ca, part of the CDCR , Do off season project work. Anywhere from brush clearing, trail work, sand bagging, ect. 
It doesn’t mean they’re using fire
In Slashers example ( I would say they were doing clearing ( boring) and said Cpt’s were hanging in their rigs, doing whatever, waiting for the “Big” fire call. 
So he being a Park employee and they working in his park, he had to show them what to do, instead of their Cpt’s supervising them.
That,s my interpretation/speculation of said events and not taking any sides

And did I mention “This years going to be the worst fire season ever...





Erik


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> At the Fed level, Parks is a wildfire agency. At least in WA, Parks is not a wildfire agency. I know some CA Parks folks. They are not fire people. "Project Work" that involves fire is not the jurisdiction of non-fire people. We work hard to achieve and maintain our qualifications. It is not the policy of any NWCG partner agencies to allow non-fire qualified personnel to lead fire crews. This is consistent throughout the US and is basic ICS. I would very much like to hear an explanation of these discrepancies.



We use inmate crews for conservation and labor projects. Being with the lead agency on the project I am responsible for giving the captain and crew their directives for the project. I can direct the crew if i need more attention focused on a specific area or if I need them to head back to the buggy because we're going to a different area. I shouldn't have to go find the captain to tell them they should be there with the crew. For most projects I only need to give them their directives and they follow me to the work site then i just check in on their progress. The only reason i should have to stay there is to give some training like how to string a weedeater or how to install irrigation systems.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Fellas. Inmate crews in Ca, part of the CDCR , Do off season project work. Anywhere from brush clearing, trail work, sand bagging, ect.
> It doesn’t mean they’re using fire
> In Slashers example ( I would say they were doing clearing ( boring) and said Cpt’s were hanging in their rigs, doing whatever, waiting for the “Big” fire call.
> So he being a Park employee and they working in his park, he had to show them what to do, instead of their Cpt’s supervising them.
> That,s my interpretation/speculation of said events and not taking any sides
> 
> And did I mention “This years going to be the worst fire season ever...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



That is exactly what I was trying to say, I thank you sir.


----------



## madhatte

I do appreciate the clarification, thank you.


----------



## TBS

I apologize for causing so much confusion.


----------



## madhatte

It's all good. I and I am sure the rest of us as well understand now.


----------



## northmanlogging

TheBrushSlasher said:


> I apologize for causing so much confusion.



And I for being all defensive and stuff.


----------



## Drptrch

Group Hug. It is almost Valentine’s Day ))


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Next:

Red or Green
Smoke or Hotel
Cal fire crew or Shotcrew
Caterer or MKU
Pavement Queen or Type 3
Smoothbore or Fog
Honda or Mark III
H2O or CAFFS
Husky or Stihl
Single layer or Double
Managed or Extinguished 
Whites or Nicks
Loggers or Hikers 

Stay safe out there this and every day, week, month and year !!


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Type 6! Avoid water if possible, but if not, Forester nozzle! BB-4! Brand-agnostic! Single layer! Managed! Nicks! 8"-10"! Don't care about the rest! Give me a crew and a problem, and we'll figure it out!


----------



## Drptrch

[emoji106][emoji106] ^^^^^^^^^


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Type 6! Avoid water if possible, but if not, Forester nozzle! BB-4! Brand-agnostic! Single layer! Managed! Nicks! 8"-10"! Don't care about the rest! Give me a crew and a problem, and we'll figure it out!



Husky or Stihl ?? It is a Saw site after all 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

My uniform is Blue, my turn-outs are black, my WL pants are tan, green & blue, my shirt is (was)yellow. I use Nicks, Whites and Sportivas.
I did 10 weeks OOC and only stayed in a hotel 3 nights last year
I get paid P to P, so stay I avail 24/7.
I carry Narcotics, I have both Huskys and Stihls ( this is a chainsaw site )) and drink Peet’s Major D, fresh grind in a jet boil.
Here’s to 2018, 









Erik


----------



## madhatte

OK I guess I do have to confess that my shop at work is 100% Stihl. I didn't choose that! I simply inherited the shop and inventory, so I've maintained it for 10 years now. In my "not at work" collection I have a mess of brands represented, and none is a favorite. I stuck with Stihl at work simply because it was cheaper than starting over. 

Tan pants! Yellow shirt! Red Helmet! (this is how we distinguish leadership visually in my organization). 

I should take and post a pic or two of my shop at work. It's getting (after many years) to where it's pretty good. Naturally, the higher-ups want to move us to somewhere else on base, so who knows what will change.


----------



## madhatte

Also, my engine:


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Next:
> 
> Red or Green
> Smoke or Hotel
> Cal fire crew or Shotcrew
> Caterer or MKU
> Pavement Queen or Type 3
> Smoothbore or Fog
> Honda or Mark III
> H2O or CAFFS
> Husky or Stihl
> Single layer or Double
> Managed or Extinguished
> Whites or Nicks
> Loggers or Hikers
> 
> Stay safe out there this and every day, week, month and year !!
> 
> 
> Erik



Couple good ol wlfHotlist forum arguments on that list. LOL.


----------



## northmanlogging

just a dumb logger... so grain of salt and stuff

Red or Green, partial to green

Smoke or Hotel, Hotel you folks can eat all the smoke you want, I'll be on vacation.

Cal fire crew or Shotcrew, Solo

Caterer or MKU, Caterer all the way

Pavement Queen or Type 3, Type 3

Smoothbore or Fog, forestry nozzle for sure

Honda or Mark III, Honda, if its gotta run gas its gotta be honda

H2O or CAFFS, I prefer to stay hydrated

Husky or Stihl, Husky fans are illiterate...

Single layer or Double, double because there is a knee pad you can stuff in em! (oh wait you meant fire hose... single cause its cheap!)

Managed or Extinguished, Managed

Whites or Nicks, Nick's for the win

Loggers or Hikers, Caulks with logger heels


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Couple good ol wlfHotlist forum arguments on that list. LOL.



Yep, that’s why I posted. Just stirring the pot a little 

Miss the Old WL format [emoji20][emoji20]


Erik


----------



## grizz55chev

Drptrch said:


> Husky or Stihl ?? It is a Saw site after all
> 
> 
> Erik


Husky for the little stuff , Stihl for the heavy lifting. There’s a place for everyone. I only run Stihls for Alaskan milling.


----------



## grizz55chev

Drptrch said:


> My uniform is Blue, my turn-outs are black, my WL pants are tan, green & blue, my shirt is (was)yellow. I use Nicks, Whites and Sportivas.
> I did 10 weeks OOC and only stayed in a hotel 3 nights last year
> I get paid P to P, so stay I avail 24/7.
> I carry Narcotics, I have both Huskys and Stihls ( this is a chainsaw site )) and drink Peet’s Major D, fresh grind in a jet boil.
> Here’s to 2018,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik


Pete’s is good, try a French press, love my coffee!


----------



## Drptrch

grizz55chev said:


> Pete’s is good, try a French press, love my coffee!



Fo sure !!




The fastest way to Fly [emoji106][emoji106]


Erik


----------



## madhatte

French Press every day, best coffee fastest.


----------



## Drptrch

Some visual perspective on the Sonoma/Napa Fires this past Oct from home. My daughters HS is directly above the blue dot on 2nd map @ Div-LL. 6 teachers and 12 families lost homes. From Marin County 1 Chief, 2 B/C’s and 2 FF’ lost homes and 8-10 were on Evans while working them.

I live about 10 min west of 101 ( the Blue dot)







and my Dept is about 20 miles south on 101.
The red flag is Annadell SP for reference.
There are 3 highways running roughly N/S through this area in valleys with ridges between, not including Hwy 1 on the coast. I’m at about 40 above sea level 

These are three of those fires ( same perspective)




The Red pins are Annadell SP.
My 3 station Dept had 4 engines out on 4 different St/TF’s for 12 days. My TF was attached to the Nunns Fire the entire time

I had “ Find Friends” turned on my phone and my wife was able to see us move all over. A little comforting for her while watching it unfold on Local News.






Erik


----------



## Gologit

Anybody know anything about this? I'm really hoping it's not true.


http://fireaviation.com/2018/02/16/air-tankers-cut-one-third-2018/


----------



## TBS

I remember about 5 or 6 years ago a few p2v's crashed and we had 5 lats then calfire put the clamps down on their tankers in California and said i.a. only we wont keep flying for extended attack on fed fires. That got us back to the available 9 Fed tankers real fast and kind of helped get the 21 we had last year.


----------



## Gologit

Thoughts?




https://www.evergreenmagazine.com/scars-wounds/


----------



## madhatte

Poor USFS. Hamstrung by their own rules regarding environmental concerns and saddled with overarching wildfire responsibility, there's nothing they can do to please everybody.

My feeling, and I've said this before, is that it's time to revisit the ESA and honestly evaluate its effectiveness, and revise as necessary. Fact is, at the time that law was written, there was effectively no regulation at all to prevent poor stewardship of the land, so the ESA was unprecedented in its ability to actually enforce and enact punitive measures in response to violations. However, in the 40-some years since its enactment, it has come to substitute for conversation, compromise, and due process. Instead, landowning agencies live in constant fear of falling afoul of the ESA and feeling the full weight of the USFWS coming down around their ears. This has led to widespread and (rightly!) unpopular inaction regarding urgent matters like fuels management and post-burn salvage.

What I'd like to see is a re-work of the ESA where agencies have a chance to manage their land without fear of punitive measures stopping them before they begin a project. Specifically, I 'd like to see the USFS and other landowner agencies able to regularly harvest their land if for no other reason than to help recoup the some of the costs of increasingly expensive fire seasons. A key element of this change would be a halt on ESA concerns delaying or outright killing projects due to the "possibility" of conflict, without any appeal process available to the aggrieved party. 'Ologists individually are often reasonable, but massed, and strengthened by weight of law, are not so very much.

Further, it's been far too long that the USFS has had to rob the budgets from other, equally-important programs in order to pay for fire response. Congress also needs to step up and not act surprised when funds fall short because it happens every year. Fund this stuff appropriately and a lot of the urgency goes away.

Forestry has come a long way in the last 50 years, and a lot of that progress has been the direct result of learning from wildlife folks how trees and animals depend on each other. The old-growth is mostly gone. There's no way we can or would ever go back to the bad old days before the ESA, so why pretend that it's even a threat? It's time to reconcile what we have learned with what we feel, and get back to work. Or don't; whatever. The forests will wait for us to get our act together. They always have. They're not constrained by our puny human lifetimes.


----------



## Ted Jenkins

I am familiar with many FF agencies in California and have a history with the USFS when living in Washington State and Oregon. What I see is a huge drain on resources through out the US. Likely all the agencies will be fired and given to private corporations or higher standards will be needed. I think Cal Fire and along with the USFS doing some thing that has some good aspects that will make a difference. They should not have to deal with FAA, EPA or Air Quality Management Board when they need to burn or complete a task they need to just do it. They have been involved with prescribed burns and mechanical brush reduction which is a good thing. The bad thing is for most part agencies can not figure how to put a fire out. They would rather drive around staring at their phones. In 1980 we had the Panorama Fire which cost many millions to fight, but still lost almost a thousand homes. In that case it took more than a day to implement any action and by then it was completely out of control. Years latter in 2015 we had the Lake Fire near Jenks Lake close to Big Bear California. The disaster took two days before anything was even attempted at the cost of 32.5 million. The Blue Cut Fire just raged on in 2016 without ever any plan to put it out. The crews just drove around looking dismayed. Several hundred buildings and homes were destroyed. The captain has a news briefing and states he has never seen anything like it. Thus admitting he is clueless and does not deserve a paycheck. Then in 2017 we had the Thomas Fire which burned more than 300,000 aces and more than a thousand buildings. That fire cost close to 100 million to fight and $800,000,000 in property loss not to mention the many people who lost their lives. From the moment the fire was reported no body did any thing to respond for several hours. Then once a report was made no strategy was ever made to put the fire out. Is this the best our FF force can do or should we expect more accountability? Thanks


----------



## 2dogs

Ted Jenkins is a liar and a BSer and I'm starting a campaign to have him banned from AS. We do not need the kind of garbage spewed here.


----------



## madhatte

I can confirm that is is untrue that firefighters would "rather drive around staring at their phones". This isn't a business you get into because it's easy. It also appears that he has no idea the complexity of the management underlying a large incident. Even if he did see individuals "not doing anything to respond", he cannot comment on how those individuals fit into the larger strategy. "Staging" is a thing. So is planning. Not every moment is balls-to-the-wall action, nor should it be. That's how firefighters get killed.


----------



## northmanlogging

Ted Jenkins said:


> I am familiar with many FF agencies in California and have a history with the USFS when living in Washington State and Oregon. What I see is a huge drain on resources through out the US. Likely all the agencies will be fired and given to private corporations or higher standards will be needed. I think Cal Fire and along with the USFS doing some thing that has some good aspects that will make a difference. They should not have to deal with FAA, EPA or Air Quality Management Board when they need to burn or complete a task they need to just do it. They have been involved with prescribed burns and mechanical brush reduction which is a good thing. The bad thing is for most part agencies can not figure how to put a fire out. They would rather drive around staring at their phones. In 1980 we had the Panorama Fire which cost many millions to fight, but still lost almost a thousand homes. In that case it took more than a day to implement any action and by then it was completely out of control. Years latter in 2015 we had the Lake Fire near Jenks Lake close to Big Bear California. The disaster took two days before anything was even attempted at the cost of 32.5 million. The Blue Cut Fire just raged on in 2016 without ever any plan to put it out. The crews just drove around looking dismayed. Several hundred buildings and homes were destroyed. The captain has a news briefing and states he has never seen anything like it. Thus admitting he is clueless and does not deserve a paycheck. Then in 2017 we had the Thomas Fire which burned more than 300,000 aces and more than a thousand buildings. That fire cost close to 100 million to fight and $800,000,000 in property loss not to mention the many people who lost their lives. From the moment the fire was reported no body did any thing to respond for several hours. Then once a report was made no strategy was ever made to put the fire out. Is this the best our FF force can do or should we expect more accountability? Thanks



Perhaps, its takes longer then you can comprehend to gather all the facts, before sending in hotshot crews to die, or smoke jumpers to die, or regular ole FS lackeys to die.

Perhaps in really dry overgrown timber fires are known to blow up.

Perhaps the fire captains working the fires, know more about the landscape then you do.

Perhaps they have a better idea as to what the weather, and humidity is and what the fire is likely to do then you do.

Perhaps they might be the best men/women for the job and you need to learn to stay out of the way.

Perhaps its easy to point out others mistakes well after the fact, when your not being blinded by smoke 17 phone calls, 33 news agencys and 10,000 other pressing concerns

Perhaps it takes more then a few hours to mobilize 300 men 10 peices of heavy equipment 3 helicopters, 2 bombers, 17 tons of food, 1000000 gallons of water, 200000 gallons of fuel.

Maybe if you think you can do a better job of it, maybe you should apply for a job at the FS or DNR and become part of the solution instead of bitching to folks here

Or maybe you should just shut the **** up and let folks do their job.


----------



## Gologit

Ted Jenkins said:


> I am familiar with many FF agencies in California and have a history with the USFS when living in Washington State and Oregon.



You "have a history" with the USFS? Were you on a fire crew? Hired vendor? Media?

I was on a few fires, mostly as a faller or running dozer, and I never saw anybody do the things you've described. 
I don't have the depth of experience that 2dogs has and I don't have knowledge and expertise that Madhatte has gathered but I know them both personally. They've both paid their dues in actual fire situations and when they talk about fires I tend to listen.
Neither one of them will suffer a fool glady, nor should they have to. If they don't like what you're saying and if they don't agree with you it's time you took another look at your own ideas.
In any case, quit posting crap like this. Nobody is impressed, nobody who knows fires ever will be.


----------



## Drptrch

Yeah. Rush right in 



My Task Force hailed on radio at 5:06 mark by Tubbs IC 
TF 2142


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

898 dispatch calls received the first nite 

We did 3 hours on a fire on Hwy 37 before even making it to our original assignment @0400 
We had already been at work 40 hours and went 110 hours before relief.

I just drove thru one of the hilly areas we were sent.
36 of 52 homes damaged with 9 engines trying to slow it.
Talked with a lady and her young daughter amid the destruction and now, constant ongoing demolition. Hers was 1 of the 14 that survived that morning and next day.
I told her I had been in, on and around her house that night, 200’ with a hose line away from my engine, while my partner was 200’ the other way on another yard.
She hugged me and cried 
Yes I did have pictures from that night, and I showed her what it looked like. She hugged me again and said “Thank You , we are blessed , I’m so sad but thankful” I told her thank you for that..it meant a lot







Their area



figuring the layout




Her yard and neighbors house ablaze

We then moved on


Erik


----------



## northmanlogging

So, in a civilized situation such as the California fires. 

What is the best thing to do?

Fire lines would be roads, right... unless wind...

if you had a long line of houses do you just pick one and say here's where we fight? 

I suppose dozing em don't work.

All comes down to the terrain and conditions it guess, I certainly don't envy any incident command on a big fire, has to be a lot like running old school trench warfare, sacrificing a little here to save a lot over there.


----------



## Drptrch

northmanlogging said:


> So, in a civilized situation such as the California fires.
> 
> What is the best thing to do?
> 
> Fire lines would be roads, right... unless wind...
> 
> if you had a long line of houses do you just pick one and say here's where we fight?
> 
> I suppose dozing em don't work.
> 
> All comes down to the terrain and conditions it guess, I certainly don't envy any incident command on a big fire, has to be a lot like running old school trench warfare, sacrificing a little here to save a lot over there.



60mph offshore winds with RH in low teens. Pray for defensible space !!

Roads if your fast enough to fire-off them 
It blew downhill across a 7 lane Hwy and into a tight neighborhood and destroyed over 500 houses and 100 commercial buildings

You need a terrain, topography and continuity change to stop that




Erik


----------



## chipper1

Drptrch said:


> 898 dispatch calls received the first nite
> 
> We did 3 hours on a fire on Hwy 37 before even making it to our original assignment @0400
> We had already been at work 40 hours and went 110 hours before relief.
> 
> I just drove thru one of the hilly areas we were sent.
> 36 of 52 homes damaged with 9 engines trying to slow it.
> Talked with a lady and her young daughter amid the destruction and now, constant ongoing demolition. Hers was 1 of the 14 that survived that morning and next day.
> I told her I had been in, on and around her house that night, 200’ with a hose line away from my engine, while my partner was 200’ the other way on another yard.
> She hugged me and cried
> Yes I did have pictures from that night, and I showed her what it looked like. She hugged me again and said “Thank You , we are blessed , I’m so sad but thankful” I told her thank you for that..it meant a lot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their area
> 
> 
> 
> figuring the layout
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her yard and neighbors house ablaze
> 
> We then moved on
> 
> 
> Erik



Good work buddy .


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> if you had a long line of houses do you just pick one and say here's where we fight?



Yes, it's called structure triage. Some houses are simply not worth defending, due to fuels, egress, etc. This is part of the assessment process and the ultimate responsibility for this decision lies on the incident commander. 

Even in the best case you're still at the mercy of the elements. We've lost fires across perfect dozer lines overnight because a tree burned out and brought fire with it when it fell between shifts. Treat every day on a continuing incident like it's a new fire. TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED. Pay attention at daily briefings. Delegate as necessary in order to preserve span of control. Remember that winds change. Study fuels obsessively. Listen to the chatter on the radio. Write down as much as possible, and NOTE THE TIME. Pay attention to any information regarding weather. Recall everything you've seen before, and note how today is different. Plan for the worst. Worry more about the folks below you than those above you. Be ready for the AAR. PROTECT YOUR TEAM at all costs -- you all need each other. Direct the public to PAO whenever you can -- that's their job. Avoid contacting anybody more than one level above you in the chain-of-command, especially by radio. BE GOOD TO YOUR EQUIPMENT OPERATORS. Watch the color of the smoke. Drink more water than you think you need to. Lather, rinse and repeat from day to day and season to season.


----------



## northmanlogging

Smoke color? I get black grey white, but have no idea what they mean on a forest fire. House fires, black is generally plastics or other chemicals Grey sort of mostly wood, white generally its burning out or is getting water on it.

I've only been near a few Forest fires, and don't remember or didn't pay enough attention to the details, as well ders a whole lotta **** going down at once.


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> Smoke color? I get black grey white, but have no idea what they mean on a forest fire. House fires, black is generally plastics or other chemicals Grey sort of mostly wood, white generally its burning out or is getting water on it.
> 
> I've only been near a few Forest fires, and don't remember or didn't pay enough attention to the details, as well ders a whole lotta **** going down at once.



Here's a very, very general guideline. Local fuels knowledge is key here. EX: here in the south Puget Sound region, all smoke colors are possible when Scot's broom is the primary fuel, but taller broom usually results in darker smoke as the leaves burn without consuming the stems. Smaller plants most often burn more completely than larger ones, resulting in lighter smoke. Other fuels can be expected to behave differently, and local experts will be clued in to these changes in behavior.

Brown smoke: incomplete combustion, fire is moving fast and not burning everything. Lots of reflash potential, mopup problems are expected. 

White smoke: lots of water, mostly steam, fire is taking a lot of energy in boiling water to make fuel available. Reflash potential is reduced, but expect more complete combustion resulting in more damage.

Light grey smoke: more complete combustion, burning hot and slow, expect less surface mopup problems but more subsurface ones. This is where you see root damage and trees burning out and falling over most often. 

Black smoke: very incomplete combustion, tires or plastics as notes above. Usually doesn't last very long. 

Watch the smoke column and note its changes. "Puffing" often signals a change in fuel type or condition and a change in color or density of smoke will follow. Watch the top of the column and see whether it's flat or round -- round indicates unstable air and higher fire activity. Flat indicates the opposite. There's plenty more, I'm sure I'm forgetting or messing up lots.


----------



## TBS

Watch for the puffy white cloud on top of the column. Indicates unstable atmosphere and high fire intensity. Pay attention to local weather conditions like when winds switch from up canyon to down canyon and what terrain features may come into alignment. Use of local knowledge can play big many times. 

Mission fire near north fork.


----------



## Drptrch

Rim Fire Yosemite and Stanislaus NF. 60,000+ acre burn period




Sequoia NF during a 10,000 acre Crown Run, that plane was at about 17,000 alt




Soberanes Fire, central coast 0700 above the inversion 



Erik


----------



## TBS

First few days of the rough fire.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> First few days of the rough fire.




The middle PyroC is taken from the ridge above McKensie Helispot below Delilah L/O
The whole bowl due east burned that day. DP 20-21 if you were there 
Two weeks were East of Buck Rock on the Far Eastern Flank spiked near Big Meadows [emoji106][emoji4]



Erik


----------



## madhatte

Pyrocumulus is such a neat phenomenon. Virga too.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> The middle PyroC is taken from the ridge above McKensie Helispot below Delilah L/O
> The whole bowl due east burned that day. DP 20-21 if you were there
> Two weeks were East of Buck Rock on the Far Eastern Flank spiked near Big Meadows [emoji106][emoji4]
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



My cousin was stuck in a safety zone for a little bit with his pg&e crew during that big run.


----------



## 2dogs

Virga is a strange phenomenon. I've seen it from afar many times but I've never been under it. At least I don't think I have.

The job I'm on right now is on the lee side of a ridge. Today the wind was howling so hard we thought we may have to stop work. It was cold all day, windy and humid and cold.


----------



## Drptrch

Virga on the Modoc last August. 105 on the ground, 9%Rh. Got lots of T-cell rain and hail in parts and a hour later completely dry










Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Raw shots of Sonoma/Napa 2017 Fires deployment .

https://photos.app.goo.gl/lrNrlz1djLQVN8543

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JZp0PNJ2bTOy2mkH3

Bennett ridge area we were in first night




those grey smudges are/we’re “Big” houses, the red marker on left is at one of the ones we fended off, ass well as their neighbors in the photo below. 






Erik


----------



## TBS

Picture of the 2001 musick fire and 1994 big creek fire burn area.


----------



## Drptrch

Calif Fire lookout cams

https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/dashboards/WebCam.htm?date=20170901

http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/cameras/

http://www.alertwildfire.org/tahoe/firecams.html

http://socalmountains.com/webcams/

http://www.rntl.net/venturacountyfirecams.htm



Erik


----------



## 2dogs

Drip are there any manned lookouts in Cali?


----------



## Drptrch

Quite a few. 
SQF, KNF, Shasta-T, Southern Mendo Coast , Yolla Bolla,

Modoc NF Area about 6-8
Blue Mtn Area





Mt Tamalpais




They also have 360’ fire detection cams on Tam, Barnabe, Big Rock and Pt. Reyes


Erik


----------



## TBS

Sierra national forest has fence meadow, mt tom, shuteye peak, and few others.


----------



## 2dogs

Hey guys. This is an article on an engine that suffered a fire while parked on the apparatus room floor at night. It could have been much worse. My Dodge had almost the same problem when I plugged in a small inverter I bought at Costco. It was plugged into the power point. It damaged the socket and damaged the alternator before it blew a fuse. I now have a Garmin that I have been leaving plugged in all the time, but not anymore. It is something to bring up in discussion.

https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orp...umentKey=eb47db25-30ce-4598-b3df-22908be12ad3

Bill


----------



## 2dogs

This one ought to make Patty laugh.
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/Hig...55c-46e3-73c8-b18a-5739642864e3&forceDialog=0


----------



## TBS

Ouch!


----------



## 2dogs

Why in the world would anyone carry a gun in their pocket on a brush fire?


----------



## TBS

To many variables pointing to bad things will happen to justify having your piece on while fighting a fire... It's bad enough when someone is shooting at you while on the line.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Why in the world would anyone carry a gun in their pocket on a brush fire?



This was my first question. Even the EDC crowd generally know not to mix fire and firearms.


----------



## 2dogs

Inciweb has certainly changed.


----------



## TBS

Much different from the old brown link list page.


----------



## madhatte

I like the new format. Glad to see the integration between desktop and mobile platforms.


----------



## Gologit

Comments?


http://mtpr.org/post/forest-service-cutting-firefighting-aircraft-contracts


----------



## atpchas

Gologit said:


> Comments?
> 
> 
> http://mtpr.org/post/forest-service-cutting-firefighting-aircraft-contracts


Reads to me like they are rolling the dice and hoping to save money if the demand for tankers is low. Since climate change/global warming predicting more fires is Chinese propaganda, I'm sure this will turn out to be a very good bet.


----------



## TBS

Gologit said:


> Comments?
> 
> 
> http://mtpr.org/post/forest-service-cutting-firefighting-aircraft-contracts









Just wait until all of those tankers are committed elsewhere and calfire says hey we're not letting you use our tankers for extended attack on your fires until they threaten our land.


----------



## madhatte

I guess we'll see what happens when more expensive subdivisions that never should have been built where they are burn and the communities flip out because "somebody should have done something". How come it's always the feds' fault and never the counties'?


----------



## northmanlogging

Fs needs money

Cant be spendin it on air planes

We'll see the results in october


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> Fs needs money
> 
> Cant be spendin it on air planes



Would be nice if they had timber to sell

oh wait


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> I guess we'll see what happens when more expensive subdivisions that never should have been built where they are burn and the communities flip out because "somebody should have done something". How come it's always the feds' fault and never the counties'?



Thats how we ended up with a 747 tanker on a cnw contract last season.


----------



## northmanlogging

madhatte said:


> Would be nice if they had timber to sell
> 
> oh wait


There are several large sales being researched here abouts, but they are trying to appease the public, get needed road work done, and make money... all 3 won't happen, the road work is too much for the loggers to make money on, and the timber is nice enough, but its all thins on difficult ground, meanwhile the roads have to stay open for the public to access... public meaning in my book tree huggers, that may or may not be inclined to sabotage logging equipment parked over the weekend...


----------



## madhatte

It's a vicious circle. Time to revisit the ESA, I think. All laws should be revisable. Opinion shouldn't drive policy.


----------



## 2dogs

Today is Hazard Tree Situational Awareness on the Six Minutes for Safety calendar.


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> It's a vicious circle. Time to revisit the ESA, I think. All laws should be revisable. Opinion shouldn't drive policy.



Yep, I remember my forestry class at reedley did a field day with a very seasoned sierra national forest timber sale inspector who described the 01 north fork fire salvage as one big f...up and no trees removed due to all the studies and assessments had to take place. By 09 the timber was long past no good and taken care of by the 2015 willow fire and last years mission fire.

A few fairly successful salvage operations are the French(2014) and Aspen fire(2013) salvage operations. Salvage removal started in 2014 on the aspen just after the french fire had burned the north side of the river. Salvage removal started on that in 2015.

The requirements were more or less the same at the beginning on all but the north fork fire kept needing revised impact studies that drove up the cost and reduced salvagable acreage from 585 to less a 1/4 of that. Its weird that two operations next to a wilderness area only needed 1 or 2 environmental impact studies while the one near a few homes and cabins needed constant revision of its impact studies.


----------



## madhatte

It's all about the opinions. No dissenting voices means things move quicker.


----------



## atpchas

More bad news for Oklahoma - first the earthquakes, now drought-driven fires.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=92013


----------



## madhatte

Ah, geeze.


----------



## RandyMac

Could be a busy season, but we don't need to worry about the Kalmiopsis burning this year.


----------



## TBS

Rx burn on the Shasta got a little sideways.
https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/5761/42743/


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Rx burn on the Shasta got a little sideways.
> https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/5761/42743/



Those sneaky winds again ))


Erik


----------



## TBS

Just a few bonus acres.


----------



## Drptrch

2015 Mad River Complex and Ruth Lake Fires. 
So desperate for engines they kept our Type1 Strike team for 6 weeks. 
We shuttled our own water from Ruth lake, filled pumpkins, relay pumped ridge line hose lays for structure protection, did Hydro-mine mop-up with Stanislaus Shots and 2 Cal fire crews w/uninterrupted water supply from Ruth lake (think the water level dropped a little)




Hyampom Airport













Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Short version:


Full version w/ first account speaking:


I Just re-ran across this. I was a medic on this fire and sent-from my division on opposite side of fire to meet up with Branch and rescue resources just below entrapment. They ended up being brought safely out the top of the fire. Our access point was blocked by the flame front. I ended up transporting the three to the local ER for a medical check after a quick Debrief w/ the IMT. A very humbling experience and a long nite.

There live camera footage of the events became a “Lessons Learned” episode.

A T-cell has moved over the fire and it was raining on the right side of the fire where we had been 







Erik


----------



## TBS

And so it begins on the Sequoia National Forest. The Wood fire started on the 27th and did little has decided to go for a run.

From Bald mountain lookout.
https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bi...ntain_5&visible=false&date=20180530&frame=151


----------



## TBS

Shot from bald mountain.


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Shot from bald mountain.
> View attachment 655150



Fulton, Horseshoe, Breckenridge, Springville, and Whiskey flat wfm crew burned the box today from sherman pass road. Really big box for a 1/2 acre fire.


----------



## madhatte

News here: the Eagle Creek fire in the Columbia River gorge from last fall has had a few flare-ups, not surprisingly. Surprisingly? I went away for a few days to visit with navy friends and when I came back the road edges everywhere have started to brown a month early. We should be deep in greenup, not starting dryout. This bodes ill as we are shorter-staffed than usual. The turn took 5 days. I'm not alarmed, exactly, but it has my attention.


----------



## RandyMac

Still kinda damp here, weed growth was intense this year with the late rain.


----------



## Skeans

Running last Friday I was about a 3 days or so of the yarding with the slash turning brown/red by the time the yarding had started.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RandyMac

It'd be nice not to get smoked out this year.


----------



## TBS

The Ute Park fire in New Mexico is past 5,000 acres now.


----------



## RandyMac

Locally, the rainfall for May was 17% of average, fire season will be early and probably long.


----------



## TBS

We had another escaped control burn today north of bass lake. 6 acres outside the line. The hills west of coalinga are burning again due to the airline and eastern fires. 600 acres so far.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We had another escaped control burn today north of bass lake. 6 acres outside the line. The hills west of coalinga are burning again due to the airline and eastern fires. 600 acres so far.



Out by Oneils also ?


Erik


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Out by Oneils also ?
> 
> 
> Erik



Yep, I had a great view of that one.


----------



## Drptrch

Today: Massive pallet fire in Schellville, Sonoma County, Ca


Happened a couple years ago also 











Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Just back from King City fire at noon and 4:00 dispatch for wind driven fire on San Rafael Hill in Marin County. 2nd alarm w/full county dispatch, 2 fixed wing and 1 rotor w/crew









and a little late night clean-up






Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Mount Tamalpais in background and it’s L/O







Erik


----------



## 2dogs

The Airline and Eastern fires were right in the area I spent my summers as a kid up through high school. I lived on the ranch directly across the river from Beaver Dam station. I took lots of bucks there over the years to have the tags signed off. I also lived at Bitterwater Station. My cousins still have 640 acres in Bitterwater.


----------



## atpchas

I thought this was an especially dramatic picture:



It's from this article: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/10/6187...colorado-wildfire-but-so-far-no-homes-damaged


----------



## Drptrch

atpchas said:


> I thought this was an especially dramatic picture:
> View attachment 657282
> 
> 
> It's from this article: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/10/6187...colorado-wildfire-but-so-far-no-homes-damaged







yep the Durango Fires
Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona are taking the blunt right now. California is heating up, two going now on the Mendo in the Elk Creek & Stonyford areas. A lot of fire history in those areas and unfortunately the home of the 1953 Rattlesnake fire burn over and fatality’s 



l


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Here we go Cali. 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

CA-LNU-Pawnee
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...com/mobiquo/redirect.php?tid=406&share_type=t




Erik


----------



## madhatte

We had our first "real" fire this last week; it was a routine range fire, 50 or so acres, home by 8PM. We've been RX burning 2 weeks now as well. It begins.


----------



## Drptrch

Camp Roberts and Pendleton have had their usual on the Range


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

https://wildfireintel.org/about.html

Replaces the old WL Fire fighter Hotlist. IOS app in the store also 
WildfireIntel by RedZone Softwarehttps://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wildfireintel/id1396807920?mt=8


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> CA-LNU-Pawnee
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...com/mobiquo/redirect.php?tid=406&share_type=t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



Well established. Multi structures involved






Erik


----------



## TBS

Lion fire in the Sierra national forest backcountry went nuclear last night and this morning.


----------



## TBS

Todays view from mammoth mountain courtesy of the lion fire. This is in the same general location as the 92 Rainbow fire.



http://the-great-silence.blogspot.com/2010/04/rainbow-fire.html?m=1


----------



## bfrazier

I read 20 or so pages of you "younger" smoke-eaters bantering back and forth. Very interesting. The fire line sure has cut a lot of black in the 20 odd years since I had one foot inside it here in Oregon. I think much of your situation has to do with fuel load as expressed in the formula: Where the prior one hundred years of USFS total fire suppression is multiplied with most recent 50 years of "conservationist" inaction.

Good luck with your season. Looks like another long one, and remember if the weather isn't hitting record highs, well, the fuel loads still are. I'll check your pulse here on what has mostly become your private chat board. Keep up the good fight.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Todays view from mammoth mountain courtesy of the lion fire. This is in the same general location as the 92 Rainbow fire.
> View attachment 659653
> 
> 
> http://the-great-silence.blogspot.com/2010/04/rainbow-fire.html?m=1



Bumped to 2000+ acres now, picking up a little steam


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Not mine just sharing; Pawnee Fire, Lake County, Ca




Erik


----------



## Gologit

bfrazier said:


> I'll check your pulse here on what has mostly become your private chat board. Keep up the good fight.
> 
> View attachment 659672



There's nothing "private" about these threads. Some people post more than others but everyone is welcome. 
Jump right in.


----------



## atpchas

NASA imagery of the Pawnee Fire.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=92343


----------



## Drptrch

atpchas said:


> NASA imagery of the Pawnee Fire.
> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=92343



Latest maps as of 0500




Fireing op from Div-F down to creek in Div-P, and possibly firing out off of Walker Ridge. It’s already hooked the lake and ran up to Walker ridge and slipped over.Big repeater site up there









Erik


----------



## madhatte

I'm in L-380 this week, taught by a couple of retired SpecOps guys and a retired USFS pilot. It's a strange class. Useful and more than a little inspiring, but weird. Oddest of all is the insistence on building a "team" that will dissolve at class end 2 days from now. Yet, it's working, and I could easily work with these guys indefinitely. A real head-scratcher.


----------



## Cfaller

How's the weather in Coasta Ricarto?


----------



## RandyMac

More Red Flag warnings for interior North CA, with Saturday forecast to hit triple digits and breezy.
The urban/wildland interface is a *****.


----------



## Drptrch

They had a nice catch in the KNF at Hwy 96 and Horse Creek by the Quarry. Beaver, Gap, Miller area.




Sneaky Bastard !!


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

SHU-Flat Fire , south of Weaverville and west of Redding. Nasty area on the Shasta-T NF.
Marin County FD T-3 Strike team










Erik


----------



## RandyMac

A lot of the Shasta-T is nasty.
Fought a lightening strike at Hell's Half Acre Creek, 3 of us walked in.


----------



## Drptrch

In remembrance: Today marks the 5 Year Anniversary that 19 Granite Mountain soles lost their lives in AZ. 










Erik


----------



## TBS

Calfire Sonoma-lake-Napa(LNU) has another asskicker going. Already 4,000 acres.
https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lnu-county/2075/22


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Calfire Sonoma-lake-Napa(LNU) has another asskicker going. Already 4,000 acres.
> https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lnu-county/2075/22



Slip on the Pawnee, Evacs of a subdivision 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Slip on the Pawnee, Evacs of a subdivision
> 
> 
> Erik



That was supposed to be “Slop” over on Div-A

And the LNU-County fire 8-10000 acres already 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Calfire Sonoma-lake-Napa(LNU) has another asskicker going. Already 4,000 acres.
> https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lnu-county/2075/22



Any update on that TCU one that was ripping yesterday ?


Erik


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Any update on that TCU one that was ripping yesterday ?
> 
> 
> Erik



They caught it once the sun set and wind died down. It went for 8,000. Good dozer and engine show.

FKU ordered everything in the world to head for shaver lake area while fence meadow lookout was saying your smoke was just a dust cloud. It was funny hearing out of unit resource orders for engines and dozers while the lookout is saying theres no fire. I did get to see the new SNF dozer with the big blade rolling up 168.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> A lot of the Shasta-T is nasty.
> Fought a lightening strike at Hell's Half Acre Creek, 3 of us walked in.



Randy, your opinion of the nastiest fire terrain in Ca that you encountered ?? and what others talked about 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> They caught it once the sun set and wind died down. It went for 8,000. Good dozer and engine show.
> 
> FKU ordered everything in the world to head for shaver lake area while fence meadow lookout was saying your smoke was just a dust cloud. It was funny hearing out of unit resource orders for engines and dozers while the lookout is saying theres no fire. I did get to see the new SNF dozer with the big blade rolling up 168.



Nice. See if that County fire does the same, N wind at 10-15 all day on it 

What model dozer they get ?


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

King Range


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Nice. See if that County fire does the same, N wind at 10-15 all day on it
> 
> What model dozer they get ?
> 
> 
> Erik



Not sure what model but it was a nice cat.


----------



## atpchas

County fire at night, satellite photo

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/92373/county-fire-lights-up-the-night


----------



## Drptrch

1000+ acre rip moving NW along I-5 north of Yreka @ Hornbrook.






Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> 1000+ acre rip moving NW along I-5 north of Yreka @ Hornbrook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



8000 now and chewing away, I-5 closed at the Ca/Or border from Yreka to Ashland 







Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Pretty Kool !!



Sometimes it works out alright! This couple planned on getting married at the grooms grandfathers house that the grandfather built but they weren’t allowed to enter into the fire area here on the Dollar Ridge Fire to even check to see if the house made it. With solid work done with Dalton, and Breckinridge IHC and others the house was saved. Although the newlyweds weren’t able to have their wedding at the house they came to thank us personally on their wedding day. We are grateful for the lives we impact. [emoji1598]#venividivici #hotshot #dalton #breckinridge #marriage #duty #dollarridgefire #ootah #hotshotsandhelicopters #yepthathappened


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Remembering - On this day in fire history
https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/thirtymile-fire

https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orp...umentKey=c649a5b2-3787-4f5a-bccf-03cbadf9cb7a




Erik


----------



## TBS

Whole lot of legal things followed the 30 mile incident.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Whole lot of legal things followed the 30 mile incident.



Yes they did ...


Erik


----------



## M.R.

https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2018/07/09/martin-fire-near-winnemucca-largest-fire-u-s/767319002/


https://www.facebook.com/1699648093594344/posts/2552257278333417/


----------



## Blue Oaks

Wow that is huge. It's a testament to the sparse nature of Nevada to burn over 400,000 acres without losing a structure.

We've had 3 grass fires in the past two days near me. Cal Fire jumps on them quick.


----------



## TBS

Rest in peace Braden.
https://sierranewsonline.com/dozer-operator-killed-in-rollover-accident-on-ferguson-fire/


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Rest in peace Braden.
> https://sierranewsonline.com/dozer-operator-killed-in-rollover-accident-on-ferguson-fire/



Unlike !! Been a rough start this year ..


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Unlike !! Been a rough start this year ..
> 
> 
> Erik



They ( CalFire) had a eng burnover and FF with significant facial burns last week on the Klamathon Fire @ Yreka. He’s recovering 


Erik


----------



## TBS

Ferguson fire in Mariposa county.
https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-snf-ferguson-was-mmu-snf-ferguson/2910/23

Just a little Pyrocumulus.


----------



## TBS

The beast is angry. View from highway 168 fresno... Per AA making very rapid progression.


----------



## TBS

It's kicking ass today, well past 4000 acres.

It went nuclear in a big way


----------



## TBS

Completed extrication of Braden Varney.
The procession is underway.
http://nixle.us/A9NHL


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Completed extrication of Braden Varney.
> The procession is underway.
> http://nixle.us/A9NHL



Thx Bud !!


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> It's kicking ass today, well past 4000 acres.
> 
> It went nuclear in a big way




How’s it looking up there today ??


Erik


----------



## TBS

Things were kinda mellow yesterday.


----------



## TBS

Things were kinda mellow yesterday.


----------



## Deleted member 110241

Seems like the northern hemisphere is on fire. 200 sq km (50000 acres) on fire in Sweden, pretty close to me. 
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/18/europe/sweden-wildfires-intl/index.html


----------



## madhatte

I've been on fires every day the last two weeks. Nothing big yet, but lots of busy work. No major engine failures so far.


----------



## RandyMac

We are getting smoke from Oregon mostly, some from NE CA.
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/wc/h5-loop-vis.html
Another wave of hot weather in progress.
https://www.weather.gov/eka/
I'm in Crescent City, no heat here


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> How’s it looking up there today ??
> 
> 
> Erik



Things drastically changed this afternoon, the fire has spotted north of 140 across the merced river and well established.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Things drastically changed this afternoon, the fire has spotted north of 140 across the merced river and well established.



Saw that. 2000# 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

July 25, 2018 marks the 10 year anniversary of the Dutch Creek Incident, on the Iron Fire Complex on the Shasta-Trinity NF, which led to increased action on incident medical. From it came the Dutch Creek protocols, the original Pink section of the IRPG’s in dealing with a FF medical incident with-in an incident, Now known as the “9-Line”
https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/ics-forms/ics_206_wf_med_incident_report_only.

https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/...Communication/6MFS_MedicalIncidentRepoirt.pdf 

https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/dutch-creek-incident

10 days later an S-61 Helo crashed departing H-44 killing 10 of 14 personal aboard. It became known as the “Iron-44)4 s 
A medic buddy of mine had been spiked out at that work area and was supposed to be on that flight (#3) down, but was bumped to the #2 flight down with all his medical gear because of weight and volume. It was his last day of his 14 day assignment. All transports were suspended and the 4th group was forced to depart on foot for the long journey down off the mountain.

I was there for both these events as a medic, and I was to be my buddies replacement up at 44. My flight never made it down like the previous two Gand instead burned for 2 days on the side of the mountain.
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/images/2008-07-26-iron44-fs-today-announce.jpg

Always remember and Never forget ....







Erik


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Things drastically changed this afternoon, the fire has spotted north of 140 across the merced river and well established.



Looks like Big Cont Box per the Briefing, Eh 


Erik


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Looks like Big Cont Box per the Briefing, Eh
> 
> 
> Erik


 Yep, i think around 60,000 acres. Last briefing video from central sierra was 40,000.


----------



## madhatte

Just got back from Boylton fire along the Columbia. Weird thing I noticed was that while overhead was all USFS/WADNR, I saw not a single agency engine, only contractors.


----------



## Cfaller

PL 4-5 tends to do weird things in the fire world.


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Todays view from mammoth mountain courtesy of the lion fire. This is in the same general location as the 92 Rainbow fire.
> View attachment 659653
> 6
> 
> http://the-great-silence.blogspot.com/2010/04/rainbow-fire.html?m=1



Well it was contained... Off in the distance is a firing op on the ferguson.







https://www.mammothmountain.com/cams/summit-cam


----------



## TBS

Their firing operations got out of hand after the column collapsed.


----------



## Bmturner

Hello brothers and sisters figured I would stop in this thread and say howdy.

Sadly I think the season will last til October /November here


----------



## Drptrch

2 more major fires in calif :

NorCal around Redding,Ca w/ 









And SoCal near Hemmet, Ca 
http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/cameras/I/hp-axis.html

@cgrahmn1. Carr fire is Ripping !!
20,000 acres over night 


Erik


----------



## Bmturner

That may be a mild example of long range spotting  holy cow


----------



## TBS

Thats one heck of a Pyrocb!


----------



## Drptrch

Bmturner said:


> That may be a mild example of long range spotting  holy cow



The red is extreme heat ( close together) the red spaced out is most likely heat in the Plume as it’s pushing that way with a NW wind on it 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Thats one heck of a Pyrocb!



The heat sig on Goes16 was huge last night, that thing cranked over night 


Erik


----------



## TBS

Just heard ferguson AA say hey you'll have some work for that super xl with the bow bar on it to someone on the crane valley side of the fire.


----------



## Bmturner

Drptrch said:


> The red is extreme heat ( close together) the red spaced out is most likely heat in the Plume as it’s pushing that way with a NW wind on it
> 
> 
> Erik




I was being a bit contrary... 

Jumping highways is bad... jumping lakes  

That is insane .....


----------



## madhatte

Just turned down a call because I'm 3 beers in after a 12-hr day. Guess it's one of those seasons.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Just heard ferguson AA say hey you'll have some work for that super xl with the bow bar on it to someone on the crane valley side of the fire.



Nice. 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Hwy 299 Carr fire 



Erik


----------



## RandyMac

That Carr Fire wants a piece of Redding, might just get it.
Two firefighters dead, it jumped the Sacramento River, weather is helping the fire.


----------



## Drptrch

map data compiled during the night, so moved farther East 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Our Eng in Quartz Hill area of Redding last night












Erik


----------



## madhatte

Here's a few from my last week: it's been a busy one



























Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Drptrch

Brothers from our County Dept, treated and released for burn injuries on the Carr Fire







Erik


----------



## RandyMac

Been watching the Carr on Satellite, looks like a volcano erupting.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> Been watching the Carr on Satellite, looks like a volcano erupting.



Check the Lassen one out, 
2 new from yesterday off of the 101 on the Mendo, worried about Lakeport now


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

Next three months could be harsh.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## madhatte

That pic is incredible. There's so much going on in that column.


----------



## Drptrch

Mendo Complex advancing East towards Lakeport, Ca

Was the River and Ranch Fires







Erik


----------



## TBS

The Ferguson fire takes another firefighter from us. Thoughts and prayers go out to their family, friends, and the Arrowhead hotshots.
https://sierranewsonline.com/firefighter-killed-on-the-ferguson-fire-procession-this-afternoon/


----------



## TBS

Arrowhead hotshot Dan holmes was killed in 2004 by a falling snag.
https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/incident-lists/63-dan-holmes.html

This has been a rough month.


----------



## RandyMac

Mendo kickin' up, Lakeport and Upper Lake areas being evacuated.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Arrowhead hotshot Dan holmes was killed in 2004 by a falling snag.
> https://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/incident-lists/63-dan-holmes.html
> 
> This has been a rough month.



Plain Sucks. Bummed !! 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

The fire I've been working the last few days is now in rehab; I'll be falling hazards tomorrow. Ought to be interesting. The reminder of the hazard is timely and important.


----------



## TBS

The area of the Ferguson fire is 90% pine tree mortality.Thats alot of hazards out on the fire line not including the fire. Our family property lost 600 trees, we've got 5 mature pines left. We've removed 200.


----------



## madhatte

It's hot, dirty work. I'm just taking the most likely to fall on people and leaving the rest for somebody to do by contract.


----------



## RandyMac

Add Covelo/Round Valley to the list.


----------



## Drptrch

Plus Sutter Buttes, Owens Valley and ...


Erik


----------



## Gologit

madhatte said:


> It's hot, dirty work. I'm just taking the most likely to fall on people and leaving the rest for somebody to do by contract.



I hate snags.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## Blue Oaks

Is that the view from your house of the Carr Fire?


----------



## RandyMac

Redding is a bit too far to see from Crescent City, I lifted that off a news site.
We haven't seen the Sun here in 4 days.
We have brown fog https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&cityid=399


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> I hate snags.



Agreed 100%



RandyMac said:


> View attachment 666330



IN-FREAKING-CREDIBLE

That thing's stacking clouds like a wedding cake. The mind boggles.


----------



## RandyMac

That is something. Kilotons of energy being released.
I haven't seen such a magnificent plume in person, although one in '77 on the Lassen comes pretty close, it had lightning and wafted pine cones two miles. 
Big plumes are angry deities.

I love snags, especially when they are burning.


----------



## Blue Oaks

I remember by great aunt telling me about the eruption of Mt Lassen. She lived in Red Bluff at the time. Must have been a hell of a plume on that one.


----------



## Drptrch

RIP Brother 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fmtoxw3hf...U-014430 Bulldozer Rollover Fatality.pdf?dl=0


Erik


----------



## Gologit

Erik...thanks for posting that.


----------



## Drptrch

Gologit said:


> Erik...thanks for posting that.



You betcha. Believe there was also a Dozer burnover , about same time the Redding Inspector passed, pulled the curtains. It Blew out all the windows. Great outcome on that one, thankfully 















Erik


----------



## grizz55chev

Drptrch said:


> You betcha. Believe there was also a Dozer burnover , about same time the Redding Inspector passed, pulled the curtains. It Blew out all the windows. Great outcome on that one, thankfully
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik


Holly sh!t, great product!


----------



## Drptrch

Big SoCal dozers climate controlled, extinguishers and tanked breathing if needed, GPS linked mapping to all existing dozer lines 






Erik


----------



## Drptrch

North Ops - Fuels and Fire Behavior Advisory

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4zr4youspn7re3e/NOPS_FFBA_08022018.pdf?dl=0



Erik


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## madhatte

"complete removal of tree bark"

!!!!!!!


----------



## Drptrch

2008 Indians fire Los Padres NF
And they used to call it a “Rotating Vertical Plume”


Longer detailed Lessons Learned video



Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Mendo fires took off today. 3 huge wind shifts throughout the day. One Div lost all their progress today. Big Vlat airshow 


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

Yeah, I watched that via satelite.


----------



## TBS

The Ferguson fire has burned past its eastern contingency at highway 41 and jump lines near foresta at dog rock. Badger fire camp was prepping to shelter in place.


----------



## Drptrch

Big day on Cali fires today, lots more black, areas that is, not line !!

http://rammb-slider.cira.colostate....1&hide_controls=1&mouse_draw=0&s=rammb-slider


Erik


----------



## Hddnis

madhatte said:


> "complete removal of tree bark"
> 
> !!!!!!!



Actual tornado when the heat broke through a "layer" that was holding it down. Read the winds reached 160mph. Pulled in a lot of heat and burning material that created a whirling bit of hell that pretty much cooked everything in it's path.


----------



## Drptrch

Hddnis said:


> Actual tornado when the heat broke through a "layer" that was holding it down. Read the winds reached 160mph. Pulled in a lot of heat and burning material that created a whirling bit of hell that pretty much cooked everything in it's path.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ntense-fire-tornado-ever-observed-in-the-u-s/









Erik


----------



## RandyMac

Well Hell...
https://twitter.com/CALFIRE_MEU?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author


----------



## Drptrch

Live Fire Map app:

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappv...4622483.1357,-13344276.63,4631789.3439,102100


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Hddnis said:


> Actual tornado when the heat broke through a "layer" that was holding it down. Read the winds reached 160mph. Pulled in a lot of heat and burning material that created a whirling bit of hell that pretty much cooked everything in it's path.



OUTRAGEOUS


----------



## Hddnis

madhatte said:


> OUTRAGEOUS



Despite what the news says I think it was smaller than the one in Alaska. AFAIK the only evidence of that one was the video from the plane. Military might have some data, but probably not anything public.

I also don't think these tornados in a fire are really all that rare as there are witness accounts of them going back at least a hundred years. We certainly are able to observe them better now using everything from weather radar to cell phone video. All of that will help us learn a lot more about fire behavior. But they can never be rare enough, when they develop it looks like they own anything that gets in the way.


----------



## RandyMac

The Mendo Complex is just hours away from 1st Place for area burned.


----------



## northmanlogging

2 fires outside granite falls, both started overnight, both in hard to get to places, last check one is 10 acres and growing

No lightning last night, and this is the wet side of warshington... causes as yet unknown


----------



## madhatte

Red Flag begins for Western WA tomorrow 11AM til midnight Thursday. I suspect we'll be busy.


----------



## M.R.

Looking like the most brutal 
Week of Summer for the PNW
.
https://m.accuweather.com/en/us/la-grande-or/97850/extended-weather-forecast/41221_pc


----------



## RandyMac

The Mendo Complex set a CA record today for most area burned, 283k acres and not near finished.


----------



## madhatte

Waiting for the hammer to drop here, any starts at all should be hoppin'


----------



## Blue Oaks

RandyMac said:


> The Mendo Complex set a CA record today for most area burned, 283k acres and not near finished.



My only beef is that it's really two fires as of now. 

I had the proverbial "cold rush of S**t to the heart" Sunday evening when a grass fire started about a quarter mile upwind of my house. Cal Fire was on it in 5 minutes and had it out soon after, thankfully.


----------



## 2dogs

Here in Santa Cruz while I can't say it was cold today it was certainly cool and humid. Like a late October day. Much of the overcast is drift smoke from up north, everything has an orange-ish cast to it. Even today's morning fog was orange.

I've been working about 30 miles away near Big Basin State Park in an area that can best be described as being in a micro climate. Cool drippy mornings with warm, dry afternoons. There have been numerous small fires near us for the last month but none have grown past a few acres. Still, I carry a truckload of firefighting gear just in case. I will be at the property tomorrow because even though it is high summer I'm beginning to prepare for winter. Last time here I was checking and marking culverts and rolling dips. We typically get at least some rain late next month.

Nate you should see the POISON OAK we have! If there is a World Cup of PO we would be undefeated. Leaves bigger than your hand!


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Nate you should see the POISON OAK we have! If there is a World Cup of PO we would be undefeated. Leaves bigger than your hand!



I said NO THANK YOU SIR

Meanwhile, I got lit the hell up by a ground nest following a hoselay out to a road tonight, a dozen or so stings, first time I've ever had that happen after dark. This proves again why I put my faith in the dozer, the chainsaw, and the drip torch, because water is false security.


----------



## jomoco

Then change the caption on your avatar!

Jomoco


----------



## Hddnis

Water works on hornets,

you just have to mix it with poison first.


----------



## madhatte

jomoco said:


> Then change the caption on your avatar!



Oh, that? It's just because I live in Olympia.


----------



## rwoods

Be safe. Keep your chains sharp and in the right direction. Ron

. Begin at :40.


----------



## Gologit

That kid with the saw may not know much but he's sure a _determined_ SOB.


----------



## madhatte

That poor saw.


----------



## RandyMac

I wonder if his name is Brad.


----------



## rwoods

Maybe one of the other teams sabotaged the saw for a competitive advantage. Whatever the case, I am glad we have volunteers. Ron


----------



## Drptrch

Santiago Peak in SoCal about to get hit on Holly Fire

Live cams: Picture 2 just went off line 
You can see inmate crew cutting line 
http://www.rntl.net/orangefirewebcams.htm

Live on YouTube 



Erik


----------



## madhatte

Yep, I see the crew, neat footage


----------



## Gologit

rwoods said:


> Maybe one of the other teams sabotaged the saw for a competitive advantage. Whatever the case, I am glad we have volunteers. Ron



Yup, the volunteers are great. In our rural areas they pretty much carry the whole load.
Odd thing though, the volunteers used to turn applicants away because so many people wanted to be involved and they were fully staffed. Now, in our area at least, they're running ads in the paper and on television _recruiting_ volunteers. There doesn't seem to be the interest there once was.


----------



## Blue Oaks

CA is so desperate for volunteers that they PAY US to be volunteer fire fighters. Yes, they pay us. I get on avg $50/hr put into a 401k account in my name. So far after about a year I have $3300 in the account. I had no idea when I joined.


----------



## rwoods

Hard work tends to shrink the volunteer labor pool - at least around here. More so it seems with each generation. Ron


----------



## Hddnis

rwoods said:


> Maybe one of the other teams sabotaged the saw for a competitive advantage. Whatever the case, I am glad we have volunteers. Ron



Some departments run a chain that has carbide abrasive nubs on the chain. It cuts through wood really slowly, but will cut through nails, metal roofing, wall tiles, bars over windows, bricks, etc. Not certain that is what they were running, but that is about how those chains look trying to cut a log. They basically cut anything they just cut it slowly.


----------



## rwoods

If so, I would assume it would be the wrong chain for a brush fire. Ron


----------



## Hddnis

rwoods said:


> If so, I would assume it would be the wrong chain for a brush fire. Ron



Not what I would pick.
Sometimes decision makers listen to salesmen instead of people who know how to do the job.

Semi-chisel for brushing work.


----------



## madhatte

Hddnis said:


> Semi-chisel for brushing work.



quite right


----------



## RandyMac

Going by viewing the smoke via satellite, the Carr had a good day.


----------



## Drptrch

Redding fire from Trinity Lake, Ca

(Not my pic)





This was my morning




100% Containment [emoji13]


Erik


----------



## northmanlogging

dnr fire crews sent to a small island in Puget Sound, only 1.5 acres but caused by a stolen Horizon air passenger plane out of SeaTac Int air port, F-15s were scrambled. No passengers just one angry mechanic

strange story


----------



## Drptrch

northmanlogging said:


> dnr fire crews sent to a small island in Puget Sound, only 1.5 acres but caused by a stolen Horizon air passenger plane out of SeaTac Int air port, F-15s were scrambled. No passengers just one angry mechanic
> 
> strange story



Saw that, nice barrel rolls though


Erik


----------



## atpchas

Sobering article about the shortage of volunteer firefighters. Sample statistic: Number of volunteers down 10% over past 30 years, number of emergency calls has tripled.


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> dnr fire crews sent to a small island in Puget Sound, only 1.5 acres but caused by a stolen Horizon air passenger plane out of SeaTac Int air port, F-15s were scrambled. No passengers just one angry mechanic
> 
> strange story



I'm honestly surprised that I didn't get called on that one; Ketron Island is about 500 yards off of Army land and well within our Mutual Assistance radius with DNR.


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Well written article.

*California's Devastating Fires Are Man-Caused -- But Not In The Way They Tell Us*
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckd...but-not-in-the-way-they-tell-us/#de952f370af9


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Something needs to be changed.

*Mismanaged, overcrowded forests provide fuel to historic California wildfires, experts say*
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...-to-historic-california-wildfires-experts-say


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Apparently, Moonbeam likes out-of-control wildfires.

*CA Gov. Jerry Brown Vetoed Bipartisan Wildfire Management Bill in 2016*
http://www.flashreport.org/blog/201...-bipartisan-wildfire-management-bill-in-2016/


----------



## Drptrch

Done got Masticated on the Mendo Fire [emoji91] 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

An expensive mistake on somebody's part; care to tell the tale? I see a lot of damage isolated nicely, and a lot of work done to keep it that way. Will the masticator head al least be salvageable?


----------



## RandyMac

https://kymkemp.com/2018/08/13/the-...-lake-pillsbury-now-burning-in-four-counties/


----------



## jomoco

How did the forests ever survive without us?

Jomoco


----------



## Skeans

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RandyMac

Mendo Fire 350k and still on the move, one firefighter killed today.


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Here you go..Straight from an air tanker pilot.

This explains why we have the fires and shows you the fuel on the ground

*California Wildfires 2018 - California's Unsustainable Legacy
*


----------



## Canyon Angler

Interesting overview and history in that video, thanks for posting. (I just jumped onto this thread for the first or second time today, so have not been following the discussion.)


----------



## Hddnis

Juan Browne is the best, he's the best reporter out there. He had the best information available on the Oroville dam incident and a host of other topics. He gives clear information without an agenda driven filter. Just a good guy overall.


----------



## RandyMac

Rest in peace Draper Battalion Chief Matthew Burchett, your brothers and sisters will take it from here.


----------



## Drptrch

Great Ariel and hand firing op on the East side of the Mend from Crackerbox Ridge down to Fouts spring
















Winds cooperated, Small slop at bottom hit by 2 buckets and Mendo Shots [emoji106][emoji106]


Erik


----------



## ropensaddle

I was out at elk creek road two weeks ago working red flag. I thought last year was bad from the looks of it this year is horrible. I have a lot of fire fighters in my motel my hat is off to them. The smoke so far is all i have dealt with and 2 days off in a month. I just feel for all involved especially those fighting the fires and of course victims we need a good rain with no lightning. Anyway you guys out there stay safe!


----------



## M.R.

It’s prime & bad alright!


----------



## RandyMac

08/15/18 fire crews held the Ranch Fire to about 3k acres, 08/16/18, the Ranch Fire said ''Hold my beer''...


----------



## RandyMac

Lots burnt in the last 30 years.


----------



## 2dogs

Juan Browne has his one perspective regarding California wildfires. Good for him. The problem from my perspective is building homes in the wildland, that is the greater problem. We do need to manage our forests but to what extent. How much money should we be spending for example to save somebody's house? Should we spend a million dollars to save a $200k house that never should have been built in the first place? Should each home owner be required to pay say 1% of the replacement cost each year in insurance? Should each home be required to pay a fire protection fee in addition to property taxes that will be collected by the state and federal governments? 

Here in cannabis country every parcel of land has some sort of "commercial" operation going on. Along with weed comes honey oil, meth, and a bunch of unpermitted structures housing "employees" many of whom are heavily armed. When there is a fire everyone involved just drives away. That land should be confiscated by the government and promptly sold at auction with the provision it can never be used to grow weed again. (The so called mom-and-pop operations generally require a huge hazmat cleanup after any fire).

Juan was on land he didn't know who the owner was. That tall brush could be managed but if the land is private who should pay? If it is government land I guess taxes will have to go up on... somebody. Should someone living in Oklahoma have to pay for brush removal in Cali? I don't think I should be paying for tornado preparations in Oklahoma. If it is federal land I guess everyone will have to pay so the union can put workers to work. Property taxes, brush taxes, handcrew taxes, air tanker taxes, school bonds (I pay $1k each year in school bonds and every year there is another voted in by our local university students), highway bonds, library bonds, homeless resource projects, solar panels bonds where the panels will be obsolete and need replacing years before the bond is paid off. 

Juan wants cities to grow vertically but Cali has ancient infrastructure and no more water. (There is a project being build right now that is constructing two 35' diameter tunnels from the Sacramento delta to SoCal.) Desal plants produce extremely expensive water but the wealthy don't really care about that. And don't forget the crazy train being built under the watchfull eye of the Union under Governor Moonbeam. (I don't think it will ever be completed, it was just a gift to the unions).

And then there is the crime in Cali. In my little city the police Chief Andy Mills has told us to stop calling the police for property crimes! Then he brags that crime has decreased because there are fewer calls for service. Property crime is huge but it's invisible these days.

Anyway, the only answer is to pay much higher taxes and trust the government to save us.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> The problem from my perspective is building homes in the wildland, that is the greater problem. We do need to manage our forests but to what extent. How much money should we be spending for example to save somebody's house? Should we spend a million dollars to save a $200k house that never should have been built in the first place? Should each home owner be required to pay say 1% of the replacement cost each year in insurance? Should each home be required to pay a fire protection fee in addition to property taxes that will be collected by the state and federal governments?



Exactly. In addition to fire issues, I'll add flood and landslide issues. The Oso Landslide here in 2014 is a perfect example; state and county agencies had been aware of the hazard posed by the unstable slope for decades yet the county played dumb when the tragedy occurred. County governments seldom say "no" to risky construction because they just can't pass up that sweet, sweet tax revenue. Then the state and federal agencies pick up the bill to clean up the mess when something goes wrong. What we have here, really, is a dysfunctional relationship between the different levels of government and a willingness to pass the buck on problems in the long run in order to shore up a funding gap in the short run. Sound familiar? I imagine that it does to anybody who has ever worked in government service at any level.


----------



## northmanlogging

madhatte said:


> Exactly. In addition to fire issues, I'll add flood and landslide issues. The Oso Landslide here in 2014 is a perfect example; state and county agencies had been aware of the hazard posed by the unstable slope for decades yet the county played dumb when the tragedy occurred. County governments seldom say "no" to risky construction because they just can't pass up that sweet, sweet tax revenue. Then the state and federal agencies pick up the bill to clean up the mess when something goes wrong. What we have here, really, is a dysfunctional relationship between the different levels of government and a willingness to pass the buck on problems in the long run in order to shore up a funding gap in the short run. Sound familiar? I imagine that it does to anybody who has ever worked in government service at any level.



The after effects of Oso, are arguably worse then then the cost of the slide rescue.

with huge settlements, massive court fees, and the cost of rebuilding the highway, its nearly bankrupted this crappy little county

Meanwhile the county expects 20000 more people to move in in the next like 5 years. Yet because of the slide, they A: put a moratorium on building near sloped ground (90% of the county) B: increased permit fees C: will not permit forestry actions at all D: make you sign all sorts of ridiculous crap about knowing its going into a slide prone area, in their definition anything on a hill, regardless of underlying geologic structure

All of this BS passed within months of the slide, some of it before all of the victims where found, all of it with no regard for what actually caused the slide.

The county was kwick to blame logging, even though the official report sited unusually heavy rain fall and the river undercutting the toe of the mountain (notably things nearly everyone local pointed out) mentioning that logging while out of bounds, had little if any effect on the slide, Yet the company responsible for the logging is on the hook for a share of the settlements, and court fees.

Also note, the slide is indirectly responsible for the murders of at least 2 people, property was condemned, dude got angry killed neighbors... 

Anyway what Im getting at is, more responsible people need to run for office at the local level, not just the reactionary asb president dip ***** that are running now, its all about the pretty face, rather then the good of the city, county, state, country... Im seriously considering running, simply because the planning and devolopment in this county has their heads up their asses


----------



## 2dogs

Ok it is probably a little presumptuous of me to comment on this since I'm retired but here goes. I see way to many images of firefighters, mostly local government, covered in slurry from air tanker drops. (I've been rained on lightly a couple of times and hit once hard by a bucket drop.) These images are all over facebook and twitter and I suppose snapchat. Somehow a pinked out ff is a sign of courage or the badge of a "hero". I say ********. It is the sign of a mistake that should not be allowed to happen. It should be the sign that something wrong just happened here. Instead of showing off these ff's need to be interviewed for an AAR so that it does not happen again. Now we have learned that one of the ff's killed on the Mendo Complex was killed when a VLAT drop broke branches of a tree striking the ff. (I don't know more than that at this time.)

For those of you on the fireline whether ff or contractor please stay as far as possible from any retardant drop or bucket drop. Don't risk your life just to be part of the club and get a cool picture.

(I also hate seeing over weight guys from volunteer departments especially "battalion chiefs" out on the fireline. How many times have you seen chiefs on an engine from some little department because they know they are making $1,000.00 per day just to polish a seat?) Rant off. For now.


----------



## 2dogs

For my last two posts there is a lot I left out for the sake of clarity. In particular I never mentioned timber sales for the first post. For the second I hate seeing unqualified guys running a chainsaw.


----------



## M.R.

Thought this might be worth sharing


----------



## 2dogs

Cute poem.


----------



## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> Anyway what Im getting at is, more responsible people need to run for office at the local level, not just the reactionary asb president dip ***** that are running now, its all about the pretty face, rather then the good of the city, county, state, country... Im seriously considering running, simply because the planning and devolopment in this county has their heads up their asses



Go for it, yo. I'd vote for you. 



2dogs said:


> For those of you on the fireline whether ff or contractor please stay as far as possible from any retardant drop or bucket drop. Don't risk your life just to be part of the club and get a cool picture.



It's a rare fire day when I remember to take any pictures. I wish I did more often; I see a lot of cool stuff. 



2dogs said:


> Cute poem.



Yeah, it does a good job of encapsulating the frustration many have with the state of things. Unfortunately, it overlooks how hard we actually work in the industry to prevent that kind of administrative overreach, to no avail. I suppose it's frustrating all around.


----------



## northmanlogging

2dogs said:


> Ok it is probably a little presumptuous of me to comment on this since I'm retired but here goes. I see way to many images of firefighters, mostly local government, covered in slurry from air tanker drops. (I've been rained on lightly a couple of times and hit once hard by a bucket drop.) These images are all over facebook and twitter and I suppose snapchat. Somehow a pinked out ff is a sign of courage or the badge of a "hero". I say ********. It is the sign of a mistake that should not be allowed to happen. It should be the sign that something wrong just happened here. Instead of showing off these ff's need to be interviewed for an AAR so that it does not happen again. Now we have learned that one of the ff's killed on the Mendo Complex was killed when a VLAT drop broke branches of a tree striking the ff. (I don't know more than that at this time.)
> 
> For those of you on the fireline whether ff or contractor please stay as far as possible from any retardant drop or bucket drop. Don't risk your life just to be part of the club and get a cool picture.
> 
> (I also hate seeing over weight guys from volunteer departments especially "battalion chiefs" out on the fireline. How many times have you seen chiefs on an engine from some little department because they know they are making $1,000.00 per day just to polish a seat?) Rant off. For now.


As for the last part, wa dnr needs people, and its really good money, i have the skills to do the job.

But i am a fat ass, and running is not an option, so rather then be a burden i decided not to apply, even though some local guys here are making a killing on the fires...


----------



## madhatte

Y'know though there's always a need for equipment operators; I flat can't do my job without a dozer because we just don't have the people.


----------



## RandyMac

Even odds they will regret this large a backfire.
Firefighters Doing Large Backfires to Contain the Mendocino Complex


----------



## madhatte

I don't know how the prevailing winds run there, but I'd be nervous as hell about crowning and spotting after letting that much fire loose. Dozer lines aren't magic.


----------



## RandyMac

Kinda hard to tell, but it looks like the wind came up from the south.
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/wfo/eka/h5-loop-vis.html


----------



## madhatte

You can click the "wind" tab to see the barbs... looks like NW corner coastal is NNW wind, more southerly in the valley. Over the hills, less data, and lots of terrain-generated wind detail. I concur with your original statement: they're gonna regret biting off that much at once.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Even odds they will regret this large a backfire.
> Firefighters Doing Large Backfires to Contain the Mendocino Complex



That's huge. The wind forecast for tonight talks about north and north-west winds. But like Nathan says, lots of terrain generated wind, too.


----------



## RandyMac

Oh Lordy.
I saw that this morning and wondered if they really had a plan or if it was an act of desperation or both.
There isn't a whole lot in that area to lose, A ten mile long backfire seems extreme.


----------



## madhatte

Yeah, how are they gonna monitor that? Are they gonna pull crews off of other parts of the fire? What's the contingency plan for spots? What adjacent resources are available to shuffle from one incident to another? What if they lose resources because something gets bumped up in priority? I would not want to be the IC or Ops chief for this mess, and would likely turn down the assignment as SRB, unless I was very clear on what the goals and contingencies were. I feel for the TFL and DIVS because they're between a rock and a hard place. TFL and RXB2 are my next quals so you best believe I'm curious about how this plays out.


----------



## RandyMac

That odd little area of circulation off the coast is moving south, other stuff moving in, the Pacific is a busy place.
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/wc/h5-loop-vis.html
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/weus/h5-loop-vis.html


----------



## RandyMac

Going to get breezy along the coast for the weekend, clearing the smoke and fog out.


----------



## madhatte

Cleared out a lot here today, too.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Oh Lordy.
> I saw that this morning and wondered if they really had a plan or if it was an act of desperation or both.
> There isn't a whole lot in that area to lose, A ten mile long backfire seems extreme.




One of the CalFire guys said today that maybe they'll get the Ranch Fire stopped when it hits the southern boundary of the Carr Fire.
He was kidding but...


----------



## RandyMac

Gologit said:


> One of the CalFire guys said today that maybe they'll get the Ranch Fire stopped when it hits the southern boundary of the Carr Fire.
> He was kidding but...


I can almost believe that...lol.


----------



## madhatte

Maybe rename it the Complex Complex, or even the Meta Complex?


----------



## RandyMac

Cluster Fire


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> Even odds they will regret this large a backfire.
> Firefighters Doing Large Backfires to Contain the Mendocino Complex



Workin so far. N-NW winds throughout the night
















Pulled back in on its self all night, Nice having the Forests Shot crew on.
DP 67 to 69. Starting at both ends and meeting in the middle at 0300.









Erik


----------



## Drptrch

https://public.boxcloud.com/d/1/b1!...SGmLugWVUkGIUn3gc-Dz2HLMItsU3WT1Ow../download
Branch I map, Northern End 

Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Part of the Dozer contingent that tracked the Dozer Highway above the Road Burn that night






And New Highway over Little Round Mountain






Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Workin so far. N-NW winds throughout the night
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pulled back in on its self all night, Nice having the Forests Shot crew on.
> DP 67 to 69. Starting at both ends and meeting in the middle at 0300.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik






Erik


----------



## madhatte

Very good! Looks like they took the time to mitigate a lot of very serious risks before bulling the trigger on that one. I'm pleased and impressed.


----------



## RandyMac

They got the Mendo in hand https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6073/
Any guesses where the next big fires will be?
The Sierras north of Tahoe, between Highways 49 and 70 need burnt.
There is an arsonist running around Humboldt, set a few yesterday and last night.
https://kymkemp.com/2018/08/27/larg...quest-for-101-to-be-closed-by-fire-personnel/


----------



## RandyMac

https://kymkemp.com/2018/08/31/multiple-fires-along-hwy-299-spreading-quickly/


----------



## Gologit

https://krcrtv.com/news/shasta-county/fire-north-of-lakehead-slows-traffic-on-both-sides-of-i-5


----------



## Drptrch

I-5 closed again North of Redding. Delta Fire and one near Hyampom

https://www.redding.com/picture-gal...a-fire-burns-next-5-north-redding/1208828002/



Erik


----------



## madhatte

Geeze, it just doesn't let up.


----------



## Drptrch

Delta IR flight - 15,000 in 7 hrs

https://ftp.nifc.gov/public/inciden...20180906/20180906_Delta_IR_map_11x17_topo.pdf


Erik


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## Gologit

https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6191/

We could use some rain.


----------



## RandyMac

Yep, 3-5 inches spread out over a week.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Yep, 3-5 inches spread out over a week.



I was out in the Mattole country last week. Dry, scary dry.


----------



## RandyMac

It be dry, even here the roadsides are brown.

Delta


----------



## Drptrch

Crazy on Delta Fire 



Erik


----------



## Canyon Angler

Just heard on the news that the state of CA has already spent something like $415 million this year fighting fires. That's crazy!


----------



## TBS

Last fiscal year was 773 million. The soberanes fire a few years back was 218 million shared cost between state and feds. 415 million so far this fiscal year(since july 1st). Hope socal stays quiet this fall and winter during the santa anas.


----------



## Drptrch

A little 200 acre night rip in West Marin couple nights ago below Mt Barnaby (Dickson) lookout 













Weather at the lookout 70F, 60RH, winds of of Tomales Bay, highest recorded was 42.7 mph 


Erik


----------



## TBS

RandyMac said:


> They got the Mendo in hand https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6073/
> Any guesses where the next big fires will be?
> The Sierras north of Tahoe, between Highways 49 and 70 need burnt.
> There is an arsonist running around Humboldt, set a few yesterday and last night.
> https://kymkemp.com/2018/08/27/larg...quest-for-101-to-be-closed-by-fire-personnel/



The western side of the Sierra national forest and eastern Fresno/kings unit haven't had a big fire since the 96(?) Italian bar fire and before that the 89 powerhouse fire.


----------



## Drptrch

Eva Schicke 9/12/04











Erik


----------



## TBS

A slightly different view of Burning Man..


----------



## TBS

The Courtney fire was a small fire that took a lot of homes. All because someone wanted to burn a rotted deer carcass.


----------



## dancan

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fire-tornado-video-1.4826764


----------



## RandyMac

Oh boy...LMAO!
https://kymkemp.com/2018/09/20/redw...tivities-in-bald-hills-area-starting-tuesday/


----------



## fool skip

RandyMac said:


> Oh boy...LMAO!
> https://kymkemp.com/2018/09/20/redw...tivities-in-bald-hills-area-starting-tuesday/


Prescribed burns started today in Southern Oregon. You'd think they'd put out the fires that are going first.


----------



## Hddnis

They should be burning more.


----------



## TBS

Well after a little quiet we have the oak fire north of Oakhurst in madera county and the Charlie fire in los Angeles county.


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Well after a little quiet we have the oak fire north of Oakhurst in madera county and the Charlie fire in los Angeles county.
> 
> View attachment 676283



Good job by air and ground resources stopping both fires!


----------



## RandyMac

A fire in SW Oregon looks like it blew up this afternoon, we are getting smoke.
I thought is was a fog bank at first.


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> Oh boy...LMAO!
> https://kymkemp.com/2018/09/20/redw...tivities-in-bald-hills-area-starting-tuesday/



I saw that. What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Gologit

Hddnis said:


> They should be burning more.



I agree. They might wait a little bit though.


----------



## RandyMac

Red Flag to the beaches today.
https://www.weather.gov/eka/


----------



## 2dogs

RandyMac said:


> Red Flag to the beaches today.
> https://www.weather.gov/eka/



Well Bob I hope the buoys are safe. There isn't much left to burn in NorCal.


----------



## Drptrch

Invasive brush clearing and future burn piles in Tiburon, 20 so far











Makes ya wonder






Erik


----------



## Hddnis

Gologit said:


> I agree. They might wait a little bit though.



Well, if they want to burn A LOT more really fast...


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Well Bob I hope the buoys are safe. There isn't much left to burn in NorCal.



Buoys? Funny you should mention that....

https://www.northcoastjournal.com/N...warehouse-dock-damaged-in-fields-landing-fire


----------



## RandyMac

Trying to rain here with only some success, should be enough since it didn't truly get dry here.


----------



## Drptrch

Heading off to the kind of rebirth of the Delta Fire in McCloud for 2 weeks as a Medic, 
And I Packed rain gear [emoji15]


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Heading off to the kind of rebirth of the Delta Fire in McCloud for 2 weeks as a Medic,
> And I Packed rain gear [emoji15]
> 
> 
> Erik







Can’t hate that [emoji106][emoji106]



Erik


----------



## Drptrch

One hell of a Dozer line...[emoji13]






Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Decommissioned L/O, Girard Ridge on the Shasta-T







Killer views of Mt Shasta and Castle Crags, sits just above I-5


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

View from my work area today [emoji106]






Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Sorry for the FB link, but it’s how I took the 360* photo from my 





https://www.facebook.com/1204527984/posts/10216769070638162/


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> One hell of a Dozer line...[emoji13]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



K. Did anybody notice anything about the Dozer line ??


Erik


----------



## TBS

Its a burnt tree.


----------



## TBS

PG&E is now shutting off power to reduce fire risk during the red flag conditions.

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/neu-pg-e-fire-prevention-power-outage/6281


----------



## TBS

Mammoth is a little nervous with the lost fire(s) finally popping up after last weeks lightning event and it got a fairly strong wind pushing it.

https://www.mammothmountain.com/cams/summit-cam


----------



## TBS

Heres the alder fire...another wilderness fire in October for the sequoia national forest. In the last 2 hour there has been a significant in fire activity.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Heres the alder fire...another wilderness fire in October for the sequoia national forest. In the last 2 hour there has been a significant in fire activity.
> 
> View attachment 680487
> 
> View attachment 680486



On the Sequoia Crest ?

One near Auberry also ??


Erik


----------



## TBS

Nothing near auberry except for some prescibed burns in the shaver area. Alder fire is sequoia crest and camp Nelson.


----------



## TBS

Ferguson fire dozer rollover green sheet.

https://www.wildfirelessons.net/Hig...f2a-faaa-3e1c-c76b-d13a05e1d161&forceDialog=0

The photos really show just how steep the terrain is there and how horrific the rollover was.


----------



## Drptrch

Beyond Senseless and Tragic news from Orange County, Ca as they bid farewell to one of their own. 
https://www.ocregister.com/2018/11/...n-serious-condition-after-bicycle-crash-dies/

Be Safe out there and watch over each other 


Erik


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Major new start Butte County
“Jarbo Gap” lots of history there
2000+ acres and moving. Major Evacs in progress

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-btu-camp/6384/21







Erik


----------



## Drptrch

https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/1929/web

Evacuating City of Paradise

40+ MPH North wind

G
Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Chico Airport 


Erik


----------



## Blue Oaks

Dang. Hopefully no fatalities. 40 MPH is no joke.


----------



## TBS

Its pretty hectic right now.
https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/1929


----------



## Hddnis

Listening to a live feed they just ordered the engines to push abandoned cars out of the way and they are loading people onto the engines to transport them.

Sounds like the **** is really hitting the fan with this one.

Prayers for all involved.


----------



## Hddnis

Tankers are grounded due to wind.

There are firefighters sheltering in stream beds and safety zones with civilians.


----------



## Drptrch

Live footage 

https://www.kcra.com/article/town-o...unty-sheriffs-office-says-5000-acres/24838602


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Sonoma county getting drift smoke now 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Holy crap, 3k acres in as many hours, that's blowing up.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## madhatte

Last report I can find has it at 17k acres 

EDIT: can't substantiate that, most sources say 8k acres


----------



## TBS

New fire in ventura county well past 100 acres.
http://www.rntl.net/venturacountyfirecams.htm


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> Last report I can find has it at 17k acres
> 
> EDIT: can't substantiate that, most sources say 8k acres



Per Calfire 18,000 acres.


----------



## Hddnis

Seeing some reports of fatalities, but not confirmed and not from official sources.
On facebook a friend of a friend claims her uncle was killed when he went back to try to save the family cats.


----------



## TBS

Lets hope not, but how rapidly this fire progressed a lot of people got trapped. Fire personnel had to set up temporary refuge areas at the kmart, walgreens, and other places in paradise and concow for civilians then protect those areas as the fire passed.


----------



## r black

only a couple ways out of paradise...road to Chico or oroville ......terrible..lived there in the early 90's


----------



## Blue Oaks

They opened all lanes of Hwy 70 to fleeing traffic, and all lanes at 99 for a few miles which apparently worked well. It was the folks on the peripheral roads that got caught.


----------



## TBS

From wildfireintel.org .


norcalscan
16m
1930: Fire has crossed 99 to the west, between Neal and Durham Pentz. About to bump Oro-Chico Hwy.

Advisory evacs for everything west of 99, north of 149 and south of city limits, west to Midway - including all feeder roads on both sides of Midway.

Water tanks for Paradise are about empty, gravity fed so if dry it’s dry. Pumps for lower town have backup gens on natural gas which is compromised so no backup gen. Looking to source 3phase heavy gen for those pumps.

1955: Stilson Canyon about to get impacted, fire coming out of the canyon hard into Stilson Canyon community. This is generally considered the eastern most residential reach of “Chico”


----------



## TBS

It will run out of fuel as it heads west into ag land.


----------



## madhatte

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Per Calfire 18,000 acres.


Yep, substantiated

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...rnia-camp-fire-hospital-evacuation/index.html

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Gologit

Bad deal. I lived in Paradise for several years and still have family and friends there. It's full of narrow dead-end streets, mobile home parks, and lots of mature pine. Most of the homes have propane tanks.
If the winds are southerly they'll align almost perfectly with the three ridges running parallel with each other that contain most of the population.


https://www.chicoer.com/2018/11/08/highway-70-being-shut-down-wildfire-in-feather-river-canyon/


----------



## Blue Oaks

Estimates are 80% of Paradise is destroyed.


----------



## madhatte

That's absolutely brutal. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## catbuster

Got a call at 0622 from EMA. Packed my Nick's (a little more wear earlier than I wanted, but I shouldn't be complaining), old White's, lots of socks, red Bullard and my nomex stuff. Flying out at 1300 EST to go work on water supply.


----------



## Blue Oaks

catbuster said:


> Got a call at 0622 from EMA. Packed my Nick's (a little more wear earlier than I wanted, but I shouldn't be complaining), old White's, lots of socks, red Bullard and my nomex stuff. Flying out at 1300 EST to go work on water supply.



Do what you can, but stay safe. I hope I'm wrong, but I think this one might surpass the Oakland Hills Fire of 1991 for the deadliest in state history.


----------



## madhatte

One foot in the black, yo. Keep us posted. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ginger15

My county sent a strike team yesterday, Possibly sending 2 more. Itching to join the fight. Be safe out there.


----------



## Drptrch

Erik


----------



## Hddnis

Turns out I have extended family in Paradise. Brother's wife's uncle.

I'd be willing to bet he lost his home.


----------



## madhatte

Critical resource needs include engines any type and HEQB's? That's me. Too bad we're not in ROSS (DoD doesn't play well with others) and I'm on vacation anyway. I'd really like to help. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## catbuster

madhatte said:


> Critical resource needs include engines any type and HEQB's? That's me. Too bad we're not in ROSS (DoD doesn't play well with others) and I'm on vacation anyway. I'd really like to help.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



They need all types, HEQOs, HEQBs and engine bosses. I got called as an engineer to figure out how to get some damn water to places other than Almanor. We have a big ass reservoir fairly close, but... There’s no infrastructure. I’ve put in a request for all the big water tankers (tractor-trailers, not tenders) I can get and a couple loaders to keep the roads open until I can figure out a better system.

This is one of the biggest fires I’ve worked, and I worked Alberta in 2016.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Dang. Hell, I just had to go suit up in my PPE and help put out a fire right by my house in Morgan Hill. Luckily there was very little wind. Some idiot decided to play bumper cars and caught some brush on fire.


----------



## Drptrch

BTU-Camp Fire:

Per 1800hrs 209 Today:

90,000 acres @ 5% contained

Single Residences Destroyed: 6,453
Commercial Property Destroyed: 260

Critical Resource Needs:
8 - A Strike Teams
8 - C Strike Teams
10 - G Strike Treams
12 - WT
3 - OPBD
11 - DIVS
6 - STAMS

Total Resources Assigned - 3,223

1






Erik


----------



## Blue Oaks

That's just unbelievable. 6000+ houses? Geez. It's a bad day for America.


----------



## Hddnis

This keeps up and it's going to get hard to buy fire insurance in California


----------



## TBS

Hddnis said:


> This keeps up and it's going to get hard to buy fire insurance in California



It was already hard but now it damn near impossible. We've been through 3 companies in the last 10 years, alstate cancelled ours. They flat out lied on a fire inspection they supposedly did just to have an out. i was at the property for a week including the date listed on the inspection sheet they sent with the cancellation letter.....we had three feet of snow on the ground and only my tracks. AAA refused to reup our policy after 5 years and now we have personal fidelity. A lot of people are having get state provided temporary insurance.


----------



## Hddnis

TheBrushSlasher said:


> It was already hard but now it damn near impossible. We've been through 3 companies in the last 10 years, alstate cancelled ours. They flat out lied on a fire inspection they supposedly did just to have an out. i was at the property for a week including the date listed on the inspection sheet they sent with the cancellation letter.....we had three feet of snow on the ground and only my tracks. AAA refused to reup our policy after 5 years and now we have personal fidelity. A lot of people are having get state provided temporary insurance.



That really sucks. My general experience with insurance companies is they do just enough to keep selling insurance, but are not too concerned with any one client. I've had them lie to my face and watched them break the law, without a single consequence.

Lots of friends and family all over CA and most of them can't get quake insurance, some can't get flood insurance. Now I'm hearing fire is hard to get.


----------



## Blue Oaks

I've never heard of someone in CA not being able to get quake insurance, nor have I ever heard of someone who wanted it. The deductibles are typically 15-20% of the home's value, so your home would pretty much have to fly off the foundation to get anything. The building codes have been so good for so long the houses are unlikely to fail. Now, if there's a 9.0 then all bets are off.


----------



## Hddnis

Well, now you have.

Of course when they said "We can't even get earthquake insurance on our new house." they might have meant "There is no way we could afford it." but I didn't ask for clarification.


----------



## catbuster

Alright...

From my station well in the black, down the ICS chain in the operations division, we’re at 111,000 acres currently. We’re at 25% containment. Water supply is still a problem, but to be honest with the fire behavior the way it is currently, it may not matter. I’ve heard that I may ne reassigned as an STEQ as we have some more resources coming in. 

Official deaths are at 29. This is a damn shame.


----------



## RandyMac

42 and rising


----------



## Gologit

We have two cousins who are unaccounted for. Both are in their eighties with major health problems and limited mobility.


----------



## grizz55chev

Gologit said:


> We have two cousins who are unaccounted for. Both are in their eighties with major health problems and limited mobility.


Prayers that they are safe, so many stories out there like yours. Please keep us posted!


----------



## Hddnis

RandyMac said:


> 42 and rising



They just announced they are bringing in more recovery teams. Already had 14 (?) working. Report from the briefing didn't say how many more, but they must have a decent number of victims still to deal with. They added a DNA lab a couple days ago and have a few forensics teams working too. Reports said some of the bone remains had shattered from the heat.

Thoughts and prayers for all involved.


----------



## atpchas

Satellite pictures of the Camp Fire:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144225/camp-fire-rages-in-california

Our brothers in Australia are also dealing with huge blazes:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144208/bushfire-burns-more-than-2-million-acres


----------



## madhatte

Smoke followed me all the way back north to Puget Sound country. I shudder to think of the energy released by this fire.


----------



## Blue Oaks

I wonder how the tree huggers reconcile the amount of pollution released in these fires vs proper forestry management- of which they are completely against?


----------



## Skeans

Blue Oaks said:


> I wonder how the tree huggers reconcile the amount of pollution released in these fires vs proper forestry management- of which they are completely against?



It’s ok pollution it’s from Mother Earth Gaia.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## madhatte

I mean, if carbon is carbon, then carbon is carbon. Somebody check my math, but I think the numbers probably crunch.


----------



## Skeans

madhatte said:


> I mean, if carbon is carbon, then carbon is carbon. Somebody check my math, but I think the numbers probably crunch.



The real world 1+1=2, 1+1 in California equals Global warming. Logging is bad and fire is good as long as it’s not started by people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## madhatte

The mind reels!


----------



## Ted Jenkins

At a recent meeting I had with some USFS personnel recently I made a suggestion as to some good areas for some prescribed burns. I was told that those suggestions were flatly turned down for Air Quality Management issues. I could not help myself and say you have got to be kidding. So I guess it is OK for houses to burn with all the paint and insulation then to allow a few days of a little haze. Did I mention that many lives were lost also as a result in poor management. Thanks


----------



## madhatte

Even if and when a RX burn is approved, the locals still tend to hate the very sight of fire. I was on one awhile back and got a call from Dispatch saying that there was a report via 911 call that the fire was running right toward a neighborhood. Yeah, well, I was a few hundred yards across the field from the caller and was looking them in the eye when I told Dispatch that "I can see your caller speaking to you right now and can assure you that this is not the case. This burn is well within prescription". Air quality is not the only hurdle we have to overcome in order to restore functional fire regimes on our landscapes.


----------



## Ted Jenkins

I am one of those who believe that many or most agencies do not do a perfect job of management or suppression. However the immense job of running and managing a gigantic work force is also a huge challenge. In my area I have seen improvements with some of the forces that should prove very beneficial in the future. In this climate of the public and home owners are trying to interfere with sound judgement time and time again which is also unproductive. Thanks


----------



## catbuster

Rx burns on this fire would have made an immense difference. 

Looking for 45% control tomorrow and half Saturday. Hell yeah. I like this group we have running the show, but this is a mean bastard fire.


----------



## madhatte

One foot in the black and all the usual. Wish I was there. DoD is supposed to start playing nicer with other agencies very soon but not soon enough.


----------



## catbuster

madhatte said:


> One foot in the black and all the usual. Wish I was there. DoD is supposed to start playing nicer with other agencies very soon but not soon enough.



Being in the ICS tent a lot leaves me in the black a lot these days. It seems like as soon as I completed the work for ICT3 with my P.E I got stuck doing stuff like water supply and access roads a lot. No big deal, but some days I miss hands on field work.

The Camp Fire has weighed pretty heavy on me. I’m sick of hearing large numbers of the postmortem come in every day... Kinda makes it hard to get up some days.


----------



## RandyMac

141,000 acres burned
40 percent contained
63 fatalities confirmed
11,862 structures destroyed (including 900 homes)
600 reported missing


----------



## madhatte

Still waiting on the call, still knowing it's not gonna come because DoD isn't fully onboard with NWCG even now.


----------



## catbuster

Nate, given the rate this one is getting under control I think there are enoigh resources alotted currently. It looks like Camp could be at 100% shortly after turkey day. 

I wish more interagency interactions were agreeable. We could have used more resources early on.


----------



## madhatte

Heard that. Next year, maybe?


----------



## atpchas

Interesting piece on RECOVER
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144265/looking-to-recover-after-the-fire

More on Camp Fire foul air
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144261/camp-fire-spreads-foul-air-in-california


----------



## RandyMac

The smoke got shoved north, we had 40 watt sunlight starting about noon, it is clearing ahead of the systems coming in.
The rain will help most places, wouldn't want to live below a fresh burn scar.
We have our first Pacific storm forecast for Thursday into Fryday, they are expecting lots of rocks on the roads.


----------



## madhatte

Ooh, that RECOVER project is neat. I gotta talk to my LiDAR guy about how to apply it on our landscape. Black oughta be near-zero reflectance, so it should be super easy to bin out of the raw data.



RandyMac said:


> We have our first Pacific storm forecast for Thursday into Fryday, they are expecting lots of rocks on the roads.



My ramble down the WA coast today showed a mess of slides I've not seen before, and our hills are way more stable than yours because they're sedimentary rather than metamorphic in origin. I imagine all of the usual suspects will be in action soon.


----------



## atpchas

madhatte said:


> Ooh, that RECOVER project is neat.



I had a pretty good idea that would appeal to you. Wonder what the technology will be able to do for us in 10-20 years....

Today is the first time the AQI has gone below 100 since the Camp Fire started.


----------



## madhatte

atpchas said:


> I had a pretty good idea that would appeal to you. Wonder what the technology will be able to do for us in 10-20 years...



It's like you know me! 

For real though, the only real impediments now are flight costs, manpower and training. In the same way as they are about basic stuff such as thinning and fuels management, the powers-that-be are notoriously close-fisted about data collection for GIS, and the know-how to brute-force gigabytes of raw data into clean map layers is still scarce. I suspect that spending on LiDAR and fuels management in tandem will yield big positive results. We will almost certainly soon be using GIS to plan where, specifically, to remove fuels proactively, instead of just being overwhelmed by how huge the problem is and giving up before even trying to tackle it. Now to convince the purse-holders to allow it. I am cautiously optimistic, mainly because I've seen and used the raw data, and have an idea how to make it more useful. There are younger and sharper guys than me coming up from Academia just raring to tackle this problem.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Sounds like good technology there. We could use that in our volunteer fire assoc. Right now it's pretty much on homeowners, but we did do a cleanup day where we cut a bunch of dead pines down next to fire lines up on the ridge.

I just stare at the abandoned lot next door and can see all the fuel management problems I can handle. The first two years I lived here I just sprayed round up all over the property line on their side, but this year I'm going to start thinning trees and bushes. Surrounding that lot is open space Santa Cruz Mtns at 700-1000 feet of elevation. Due to the narrow width of my lot compared to depth, the property line is about ten feet from my carport next to my garage. In addition, there's red tagged broken concrete and asphalt continuously tumbling into my property as it erodes...

In the satellite pic, my house is the furthest lower left mostly rectangle lot with a larger house and a smaller cottage on it. The Loma Fire two years ago burned 12 homes and was stopped about a mile and a half away. http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1457

The other pic shows two red tagged areas, though I will admit that road made from broken concrete has held up well, and the overall brush that is over most of the property next door. No one will buy that property since it's 150 feet wide and 1100 feet deep and very, very steep.


----------



## atpchas

madhatte said:


> We will almost certainly soon be using GIS to plan where, specifically, to remove fuels proactively, instead of just being overwhelmed by how huge the problem is and giving up before even trying to tackle it.



Selectivity is, as I see it, the key. If we can make significant progress in that area, there is a chance to get back on top of this situation. There is certainly not the will or $ to "treat" 100% of of the over-fueled outdoors.


----------



## madhatte

You hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Drptrch

The Rain’th is Falling [emoji106]


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

Raining good here.
https://www.weather.gov/eka/


----------



## RandyMac

Raining good here.
https://www.weather.gov/eka/


----------



## catbuster

GIS is the best tool civil/environmental engineering has right now for planning. I’d love to see it applied to forest management. Of course, you need to have people on the ground while the work is being carried out who can make a call to modify plans, assuming the plans *need* to be modified because they will not meet the objective... Which has been the issue on most jobs. 

Anyway, my fly out is tomorrow. The Camp Fire has been something that’s changed my perspective on firefighting. It’s been real, it hasn’t been fun, and it definitely hasn’t been real fun.


----------



## Drptrch

Repost from Wildfireintel.

“The Camp Fire is 100% contained. 153,336 acres, 14,500 structures destroyed, 85 confirmed fatalities, 271 still on the unaccounted for list. By far the worst incident I have ever been on in over 44 years on the job. Outstanding work by all emergency responders involved from IA, major incident response, the US&R Task Forces, volunteer SAR organizations, Law Enforcement, EMS, and many, many more.”


Erik


----------



## 2dogs

I think it has rained enough here that can I start on the burn piles come December.


----------



## 2dogs

Blue Oaks said:


> Sounds like good technology there. We could use that in our volunteer fire assoc. Right now it's pretty much on homeowners, but we did do a cleanup day where we cut a bunch of dead pines down next to fire lines up on the ridge.
> 
> I just stare at the abandoned lot next door and can see all the fuel management problems I can handle. The first two years I lived here I just sprayed round up all over the property line on their side, but this year I'm going to start thinning trees and bushes. Surrounding that lot is open space Santa Cruz Mtns at 700-1000 feet of elevation. Due to the narrow width of my lot compared to depth, the property line is about ten feet from my carport next to my garage. In addition, there's red tagged broken concrete and asphalt continuously tumbling into my property as it erodes...
> 
> In the satellite pic, my house is the furthest lower left mostly rectangle lot with a larger house and a smaller cottage on it. The Loma Fire two years ago burned 12 homes and was stopped about a mile and a half away. http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=1457
> 
> The other pic shows two red tagged areas, though I will admit that road made from broken concrete has held up well, and the overall brush that is over most of the property next door. No one will buy that property since it's 150 feet wide and 1100 feet deep and very, very steep.



I was working at UCSC on 9-26-2016 and had a good view of that fire at 15:03 and then later at 16:26. Now if I can make the pics show up.

This one was taken at 16:26.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> I was working at UCSC on 9-26-2016 and had a good view of that fire at 15:03 and then later at 16:26. Now if I can make the pics show up.
> 
> This one was taken at 16:26.



If you want text them to me and I’ll post for you 
707-529-2560


Erik


----------



## 2dogs

This one was taken at 15:03.


----------



## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> If you want text them to me and I’ll post for you
> 707-529-2560
> 
> 
> Erik


I'll do that.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> I'll do that.













Erik


----------



## Drptrch

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fbNjG_0g-vYt185fMUHWkCDg


Erik


----------



## 2dogs

Thank you Erik.


----------



## Drptrch

Debris from the Delta fire on I-5 between Lake Shasta and Dunsmuir, Ca in Mid October 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Was still very obvious 9 Nov when I rolled through, drove real slow to take in the detail. Saw some dozer lines I really approved of.


----------



## atpchas

Satellite photos of N Cal burn scars.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/i...nother-scar-to-2018-fire-season/?src=eoa-iotd


----------



## madhatte

MODIS is such a cool tool.


----------



## Gologit

grizz55chev said:


> Prayers that they are safe, so many stories out there like yours. Please keep us posted!



Thanks Grizz. We think the recovery teams found both of their remains but we're waiting for positive ID from the pathologists.
Lots of bad stories coming out of that fire.


----------



## grizz55chev

Gologit said:


> Thanks Grizz. We think the recovery teams found both of their remains but we're waiting for positive ID from the pathologists.
> Lots of bad stories coming out of that fire.


Condolences my friend, so sorry they didn’t get out! That fire has touched our whole area like no fire I can remember. A good friend of mine has a daughter that lost her home, job ,and everything she owned in that fire, at least she and her family are safe. The area is now in danger of mudslides and more rain is now on the way, they just can’t catch a break!


----------



## Blue Oaks

My condolences as well. 

As a kid my mom told me about the Berkeley Fire. She said it was so bad that everyone piled their belongings in the middle of the street- and it still burned. I simply didn't believe her, since it was before the Oakland Hills Fire of 91, and I was as skeptical then as I am now. I mean, how could a fire possibly be so bad that it burned stuff in the middle of a paved street. Well, now I know. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923_Berkeley,_California_fire


----------



## Drptrch

Pretty amazing and chilling.

150 Min of Hell
https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2018/carr-fire-tornado/


Erik


----------



## Blue Oaks

Drptrch said:


> Pretty amazing and chilling.
> 
> 150 Min of Hell
> https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2018/carr-fire-tornado/
> 
> 
> Erik



Harrowing. Brutal.


----------



## TBS

Pretty interesting read from kenneth Jordan former Sierra hotshot sup. May he rest in peace. This took place right in my back yard. My grandfather used to hike down to that very spot when he was a kid.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw04KNt98Dc9_lIgJg4fHYUd


----------



## Drptrch

My house in 1958






And earlier this year




15 House , Larkspur, Marin County, Ca 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Merry Christmas and a Safe New year ahead !!



Too much of this lately !!
Godspeed everyone 


Erik


----------



## catbuster

Pewee Valley FD’s new rig arrived just in time for Christmas. Currently housed at station 2 (my house). We need to load it up with equipment, and I still have to do driver’s training before we put the new ride on the road for response. 

Merry Christmas from the Valley!


----------



## Drptrch

Interesting 





https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/192618855202

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf00512319/pdf00512319dpi72.pdf


Erik


----------



## p61 western

Drptrch said:


> Interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/192618855202
> 
> https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf00512319/pdf00512319dpi72.pdf
> 
> 
> Erik


Did you snag it?


----------



## Drptrch

p61 western said:


> Did you snag it?



Nooooo !! Read the Fed Review. 
“Acts erratically And comes close to front foot while preforming required “raking” motion “
Ha


Erik


----------



## p61 western

Drptrch said:


> Nooooo !! Read the Fed Review.
> “Acts erratically And comes close to front foot while preforming required “raking” motion “
> Ha
> 
> 
> Erik


LMAO so not for safety Sally's?


----------



## catbuster

p61 western said:


> LMAO so not for safety Sally's?



“Interesting idea, but human output with handtools is far more productive than the Trail Buster.”

I tbink that may sum it up.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Nooooo !! Read the Fed Review.
> “Acts erratically And comes close to front foot while preforming required “raking” motion “
> Ha
> 
> 
> Erik



There are weed cutters now that have a head like that. I'm tempted to buy one.



p61 western said:


> LMAO so not for safety Sally's?



LoL or people who like their backs. How does a husqvarna 36 get to 45lbs?


----------



## TimberMcPherson

It needs a "foot or leg" like the alpine magnum or my stumpmaster has


----------



## madhatte

OK yeah no thank you

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## catbuster

I thought we had 18 year olds with rakes, shovels and pulaskis for that?


----------



## madhatte

They can only rake so fast!


----------



## RandyMac

madhatte said:


> They can only rake so fast!



provide incentive


----------



## madhatte

You mean... more fire?


----------



## 2dogs

Fire line safety classes for hired vendors are starting up here in California. This class is necessary for anyone working on fires such as fallers, runners, cat skinners, etc. Is anyone signing up this year?


----------



## 2dogs

The news is reporting a skycrane crashed in Australia while fighting a wildland fire. It crashed "into a dam" and is laying upside down under water. The crew thankfully escaped unharmed. Dangerous work those guys do. At least we fallers have a chance to run away.


----------



## Blue Oaks

2dogs said:


> Fire line safety classes for hired vendors are starting up here in California. This class is necessary for anyone working on fires such as fallers, runners, cat skinners, etc. Is anyone signing up this year?



I'm just over the hill from you. Our Volunteer Fire Association has this training every year, so I'll get it as part of the program. Where in SC are you? Down low or up on the hill? We have a fire station on Loma Chiquita near Loma Prieta where we hold a lot of training.


----------



## madhatte

2dogs said:


> The news is reporting a skycrane crashed in Australia while fighting a wildland fire. It crashed "into a dam" and is laying upside down under water. The crew thankfully escaped unharmed. Dangerous work those guys do. At least we fallers have a chance to run away.



I recently saw a documentary on water-escape training for helicopter crews. Rough business, that, even in the relative safety of a training environment. I'll post it here if I can remember where I saw it.


----------



## grizz55chev

madhatte said:


> I recently saw a documentary on water-escape training for helicopter crews. Rough business, that, even in the relative safety of a training environment. I'll post it here if I can remember where I saw it.


Fear Factor?


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> The news is reporting a skycrane crashed in Australia while fighting a wildland fire. It crashed "into a dam" and is laying upside down under water. The crew thankfully escaped unharmed. Dangerous work those guys do. At least we fallers have a chance to run away.



Here he be : Elvis up on the Klamath 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2dogs

That fire just got a lot more expensive.


----------



## madhatte

Found it! This one is pretty neat, and worth the watch.


----------



## Drptrch

Great outcome 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Here he be : Elvis up on the Klamath
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Eric do you happen to know what Helitanker it was that crash? We had 732 camping out in the big parking lot next to friant dam since August for Calfire, good group of guys on the ground crew.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Eric do you happen to know what Helitanker it was that crash? We had 732 camping out in the big parking lot next to friant dam since August for Calfire, good group of guys on the ground crew.



It was 732 (N173AC) “Christine”

Sorry “Elvis” is 739 (N179AC)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Here he be : Elvis up on the Klamath
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My mistake. Right Helitanker wrong name, should be “Christine” not “Elvis”
Each has a nickname stenciled across the front under windshield (?)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Saiso

This is an interesting thread. I’ll definitely post pictures and information once we start getting fires in the spring.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> My mistake. Right Helitanker wrong name, should be “Christine” not “Elvis”
> Each has a nickname stenciled across the front under windshield (?)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It was Elvis(n179ac)hanging out with us at millerton, found a Facebook photo from when they made an emergency landing near prather this past fall.


----------



## Oliver Durand

Accident yesterday to a volunteer firefighter while dealing with a brush fire. This is all that has been in the news so far: https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/arlington-firefighter-burned-by-power-line,569568
Freak accident that could have turned deadly. This town is next door to me.


----------



## Oliver Durand

Oliver Durand said:


> Accident yesterday to a volunteer firefighter while dealing with a brush fire. This is all that has been in the news so far: https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/arlington-firefighter-burned-by-power-line,569568
> Freak accident that could have turned deadly. This town is next door to me.


*ington firefighter burned by power line*
Posted Thursday, April 4, 2019 7:51 pm
By Darren Marcy, Manchester Journal
ARLINGTON — An Arlington firefighter was injured Wednesday evening after a live 7,200-volt power line fell on him while crews were battling a brush fire.

Jeremy Fisher of the Arlington Fire Department was injured when a large oak tree, which was hollowed out and burning from the inside, was blown over in the strong, gusty wind. While the tree missed him, it pulled power lines down onto Fisher.

Fisher was transported from the scene of the fire to a landing zone where he was airlifted to Albany Medical Center.

On Thursday, Albany Medical Center said they had no information to share, but Arlington Fire Chief Jamie Paustian said his firefighter was recovering in the surgical intensive care unit at the hospital and he had spoken to him Thursday morning.

Details of his condition or injuries were not immediately available, other than that Fisher had suffered burns.

Paustian said the 1 - to 2-acre fire they responded to about 6 p.m. was fed by a steady wind that was constantly changing directions with strong gusts.

"We kind of knocked the fire down relatively quick," Paustian said, but in one area several large trees, including an old oak tree about 4 feet in diameter, were near power lines and one oak was hollowed out and burning inside.

Paustian said firefighters were consulting with an employee of Green Mountain Power when the tree began to go.

"We were assessing the tree when it started to crack," Paustian said.

Firefighters started yelling to clear the area, but "Jeremy was running the power blower and couldn't hear us," Paustian said.

Paustian immediately ordered an air evacuation as Fisher lay unconscious next to a live wire.

"We couldn't initially get to him because the lines were down and still live," Paustian said.

Eventually, a GMP employee was able to make his way into the scene and dragged Fisher out of the danger zone.

"Four of our members carried him out of the woods to the rescue squad that was waiting," Paustian said.

Manchester Fire Department had been called and set up a landing zone for the helicopter.

Contact Darren Marcy at [email protected] or by cell at 802-681-6534.
PRINT


----------



## catbuster

I read the article when you first posted the link, and _still_ for the life of me cannot understand why the guy was close in to a hazard tree to begin with. Especially running a piece of gear where he couldn’t hear. Maybe he didn’t know it was a hazard, but then you have to question the guy’s situational awareness. Or maybe it was a freak accident, albeit a preventable on that should not have happened.

What I really want to know is why the rest of the crew is assessing the hazard tree while another guy is in the danger zone not paying attention. I get it, we all probably get too close to hazards, but eventually command needs to clarify what’s a problem, and what isn’t, even if it’s just the person in charge of rhe crew. Lastly, why did command let the whole crew appraise the tree with the utility company rep? The crew boss and the sawyer are the only two people who should be part of that conversation. Everyone else needs to stay the hell back.


----------



## Drptrch

LODD-RIP

http://www.cafirefoundation.org/lodd-usfs-helitack-captain-daniel-laird/


Erik


----------



## Hddnis

Any link to what happened?


----------



## TBS

Hddnis said:


> Any link to what happened?


https://www.abc10.com/mobile/video/...rash/103-7ae81df0-08fe-4279-9c99-7bfab31ee3cc


----------



## Drptrch

Hddnis said:


> Any link to what happened?



https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/03/27/texas-firefighter-killed-in-helicopter-crash/


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/03/27/texas-firefighter-killed-in-helicopter-crash/
> 
> 
> Erik



https://www.wildfirelessons.net/Hig...db5-f33a-6675-3645-6380ce2f6a33&forceDialog=1


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Fuels reduction today, 100+ piles of dried “Broom” off a hillside









Erik


----------



## Drptrch

And this posted the day after 

https://www.wildfirelessons.net/Hig...918-511f-698f-ec7d-884c39f75e26&forceDialog=1


Erik


----------



## Saiso

The south part of our province has already gotten calls for grass fires. After this heavy rain this weekend, there won't be much snow up here, either. I'm the only one working this weekend/Holiday but we're getting 50mm+ of rain. We do have an engine and a couple Mark III pumps ready to go just in case....


----------



## Drptrch

The Big Boys of SoCal 







Erik


----------



## TBS

So red and beautiful my eyes hurt.


----------



## catbuster

Well kept D8Rs, those machines (and trucks) are probably twenty years old now. I’d guess that one just left shop before the season really kicks off? Real clean and shiny but the thing that makes it real obvious in my mind is how little wear there is on those grousers.


----------



## TBS

Today was an interesting day around our cabin... Two escaped debris burns and two more fires up the road that went about 3 acres which is pretty impressive for amount green up there. Another 3-4 weeks that would be at least 50 acres.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Today was an interesting day around our cabin... Two escaped debris burns and two more fires up the road that went about 3 acres which is pretty impressive for amount green up there. Another 3-4 weeks that would be at least 50 acres.
> 
> View attachment 734828







Green, WET and 4’-7’ tall 
Neighbor, just past the Eucs got his 40hp kubota stuck trying to mow. 



Erik


----------



## bfrazier

Today. May 10th, 2019. Did I tell you it was getting dry, _*or did I tell ya!* _
_May freaking TENTH!_
_



_
_About 60 acres, near Cottage Grove, Oregon. The Brush Slasher is an Oracle! Yes, it just maybe could be a long summer. How long? LOOOOOOOOONG. That's the Row river in the foreground, just downstream from Dorena Reservoir. _

_Cause yet to be determined, but we've had a dozen escaped burns locally in the past 10 days... AND this could be power lines... "Holy ConCOW" (Paradise Camp Fire), say it ain't so!_

_Tonight... she got into some slash. Makes me go ... oh yeah._
_



_


----------



## 2dogs

Lots of pretty pics of iron here.
http://www.californiadozeroperatorsgroup.org/index.html


----------



## TBS

Former ceo of defunct firewhat Inc seems to have a habit of screwing people over.

https://www.siskiyoudaily.com/news/20190515/former-firewhat-ceo-charged-with-fema-fraud


----------



## bfrazier

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Former ceo of defunct firewhat Inc seems to have a habit of screwing people over.
> 
> https://www.siskiyoudaily.com/news/20190515/former-firewhat-ceo-charged-with-fema-fraud


Let's hope they all get caught.

Something's fishy up at Paradice too - I was blown away on a visit this week - it looks as though almost nothing's been done. I even found a dead cat - still in the road. Those poor people.


----------



## TBS

bfrazier said:


> Let's hope they all get caught.
> 
> Something's fishy up at Paradice too - I was blown away on a visit this week - it looks as though almost nothing's been done. I even found a dead cat - still in the road. Those poor people.



Not to long ago an endangered frog brought everything to a stop and I guess cleanup crew's can't work in the rain for whatever reason.


----------



## bfrazier

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Not to long ago an endangered frog brought everything to a stop and I guess cleanup crew's can't work in the rain for whatever reason.



We've visited the Delta, Carr, and Camp Fires, and I've seen a lot of black other places. Nothing prepared me for the (ongoing) devastation of the Camp fire. This place takes pain and misery to a whole new level. 





These are just representative. No new buildings, few cleared lots.





It's just as if everyone left - never to return. Street after street, block after block.






It's unlike anywhere else in as much as even the basic services were completely destroyed or in the case of the water system, contaminated. Have to say, at least there was power crews stringing line.

Places with money - the Mendocino Complex, the Thomas fire - people with money (and some remaining infrastructure) rebuild fast compared to this. Paradise? Retirees, fixed incomes, remote. It's going to be a tough road for them. The totality - shook me pretty damned hard anyway - I feel for these folks.


----------



## madhatte

Just rebuilt one of our tenders from the ground up. Here's the finished prototype, ready to be released to the wild to find out what I need to fix. This design and build is entirely mine, except for some of the wiring inside of the box. I cut a lot of extraneous material out and consolidated a bunch more. 

EDIT: clarified some details


----------



## Jacob J.

bfrazier said:


> Today. May 10th, 2019. Did I tell you it was getting dry, _*or did I tell ya!* _
> _May freaking TENTH!_
> 
> _About 60 acres, near Cottage Grove, Oregon. The Brush Slasher is an Oracle! Yes, it just maybe could be a long summer. How long? LOOOOOOOOONG. That's the Row river in the foreground, just downstream from Dorena Reservoir. _
> 
> _Cause yet to be determined, but we've had a dozen escaped burns locally in the past 10 days... AND this could be power lines... "Holy ConCOW" (Paradise Camp Fire), say it ain't so!_
> 
> _Tonight... she got into some slash. Makes me go ... oh yeah._



Which is strange because the Cottage Grove area almost never has fires. I worked at the district in 1992 and was at the Eugene BLM in 1994. We had one fire on Sawtooth Mountain in 1992 that got to about 7 acres and two fires in Lorane
in 1994 that got up to 13 and 40 acres and that was pretty much all the fire we had in that area from 1991-96.


----------



## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> Just rebuilt one of our tenders from the ground up. Here's the finished prototype, ready to be released to the wild to find out what I need to fix. This design and build is entirely mine.



Very cool Nate - what's the pump unit on that?


----------



## Drptrch

bfrazier said:


> We've visited the Delta, Carr, and Camp Fires, and I've seen a lot of black other places. Nothing prepared me for the (ongoing) devastation of the Camp fire. This place takes pain and misery to a whole new level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are just representative. No new buildings, few cleared lots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just as if everyone left - never to return. Street after street, block after block.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's unlike anywhere else in as much as even the basic services were completely destroyed or in the case of the water system, contaminated. Have to say, at least there was power crews stringing line.
> 
> Places with money - the Mendocino Complex, the Thomas fire - people with money (and some remaining infrastructure) rebuild fast compared to this. Paradise? Retirees, fixed incomes, remote. It's going to be a tough road for them. The totality - shook me pretty damned hard anyway - I feel for these folks.



Super sad and completely unbelievable if you haven’t seen it in person

This is Coffe Park in Santa Rosa that lost 1400 homes in one neighborhood in the 2017 Tubbs Fire 





And Bennet Vally area we were assigned to the first night with 5 Engines ...150 houses, power lines down, no water, trees across road. 25 houses remained 12 hours later 



the route in



we got relieved for a rest day 84 hr later... 
let’s hope for the best this year 


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Jacob J. said:


> Very cool Nate - what's the pump unit on that?



23HP B&S Vanguard coupled to a 4-stage Wildfire head via a speed reducer. I don't trust their published numbers at all because I've seen 400PSI static and moved 150GPM at ~65PSI to drain 1000 gallons in about 7 minutes. That is, under ideal conditions with shortest possible hose lengths and a nozzle after every possible wye after every 100-ft length of 1 1/2" hose for a total of I think 9 nozzles each asking 50GPM for a math problem not accommodated neatly by a chart. At any rate, Overhead is concerned all of a sudden that it can't draft fast enough. I don't understand.


----------



## madhatte

Goals with this design were to clean up the controls as well as the wiring, to reduce trip hazards, and and to make it easier to repair in the future.


----------



## catbuster

bfrazier said:


> We've visited the Delta, Carr, and Camp Fires, and I've seen a lot of black other places. Nothing prepared me for the (ongoing) devastation of the Camp fire. This place takes pain and misery to a whole new level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are just representative. No new buildings, few cleared lots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just as if everyone left - never to return. Street after street, block after block.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's unlike anywhere else in as much as even the basic services were completely destroyed or in the case of the water system, contaminated. Have to say, at least there was power crews stringing line.
> 
> Places with money - the Mendocino Complex, the Thomas fire - people with money (and some remaining infrastructure) rebuild fast compared to this. Paradise? Retirees, fixed incomes, remote. It's going to be a tough road for them. The totality - shook me pretty damned hard anyway - I feel for these folks.



When I worked there last November it was mind boggling. I had seen nothing like it before. It was one of the few events where it was hard to separate yourself from the event unfolding and focus on the task at hand.


----------



## Jacob J.

madhatte said:


> 23HP B&S Vanguard coupled to a 4-stage Wildfire head via a speed reducer. I don't trust their published numbers at all because I've seen 400PSI static and moved 150GPM at ~65PSI to drain 1000 gallons in about 7 minutes. That is, under ideal conditions with shortest possible hose lengths and a nozzle after every possible wye after every 100-ft length of 1 1/2" hose for a total of I think 9 nozzles each asking 50GPM for a math problem not accommodated neatly by a chart. At any rate, Overhead is concerned all of a sudden that it can't draft fast enough. I don't understand.



Very cool - Do you consider that a type 3? Your overhead may just be looking at the Red Book standard for a Type 3. That's a good set-up, clean and no nonsense. We had a similar pump set-up on a slip-on unit with a 350-gallon tank at the park. It was on an F-350 chassis with a flatbed.

A guy and I built a CAFS unit in the mid-90's for the BLM with a 2,000g tank and considered it a tactical tender. It's still in service with ODF out of Grants Pass.


----------



## madhatte

Thank you, thank you.

Yep, type 3. We've got very little material or maintenance support right now so I built this to be field-repairable. Almost all of the fasteners are 1/2", and it's all taped, no putty. Wiring is all solder/heat-shrink/dielectric grease for strength and weather resistance. Those new aluminum Hannay hosereels are excellent, best I've ever seen. Everything is reversible INCLUDING the inlet nozzle.


----------



## Drptrch

LA County Fire Dozer 6. 





FD-8 in the background 


Erik


----------



## catbuster

Those D8s and KWs are super well kept, like everything in LA County’s fleet. Nice shiny E or F series Cat ex in between. Looks like a 323 or 324 based on the size of it relative to the D8s.


----------



## Drptrch

As the 2019 season approaches and is on for some of us: Be diligent and safe out there !!

Not sure if posted before, but this includes an Engine close call from my County at the 2018 Car Fire, Shasta Co, Ca

Several members were also on the investigation and Gis of these events 

https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2018/carr-fire-tornado/

https://www.wildfirelessons.net/Hig...ff2-4435-ee4b-1676-c5e066a313e7&forceDialog=0
Marin Eng listed as (George St Eng 1)



Erik


----------



## bfrazier

This is pretty much for Erik... but all ya'll might like it.

*This is an interview that Travis Dotson had with Mike Lewelling, Fire Management Officer at Rocky Mountain National Park. *

TRAVIS: What is the goofiest fire-related event you can recall?

MIKE: Oh man, there have been a few. This one sticks out:

I was dropping ping-pong balls at Whiskeytown. I was front seat. Before we took off, I was joking about getting airsick. I said: _“I got my puke bag!”_ So I had my puke bag in my pocket and we’re flying and we’re dropping ping-pong balls and the pilot goes, _“Hey, you got that puke bag?”_ I looked at him and I kind of laugh. I’m like, _“Well, yes, but I’m good.”_ He’s like, _“No, give it to me!”_ And I’m like, OK.

And so I gave him my puke bag and he starts hurling as we’re flying. You know how your body kind of convulses when you puke? He somehow bumped the controls and we just come screaming out of the unit. And thankfully, the PSD operator stopped dropping balls in the back. But yeah, he puked all over the place and then of course my puke bag had holes in it and so he hands it back to me and his pukes drip all over my legs. We ended up flying back over the fire and dropped the puke into the fire.

So, that was kind of goofy.

TRAVIS: You cannot make that stuff up.

MIKE: And it wasn’t that he was airsick, it was food poisoning or something. I don’t know how you can puke and fly at the same time. I’m glad we didn’t crash.

TRAVIS: Dropping ping-pong balls when the pilot gets sick—classic.

From the Wildfire Lessons Learned Center - a good read anytime.


----------



## catbuster

I read that SF Chronicle article over the winter. Terrifying to picture. I drove through (d’oh) a tornado last June... Of all places trying to get to a basement (again, d’oh.) I think it was rated as an F2. To have higher wind speeds and higher temperatures than flashover (yeah... Type 1 engine operator/boss most of the time. I’ve been way too close once or twice) is mortifying.

Looking at the place that dozer operator stopped now, I can’t see how anybody would survive in the open station. I guess he had to make a decision where there were no good choices to make. Looks like he tried to park up and ride it out. What I want to know is where that big chunk of wood came from next to the dozer. Did he not have enough time to clear the bench? Did that 700 not have enough power to clear it? Could he not see it because of fire/weather conditions? I have so many questions about that particular scenario that I don’t think anyone still living has answers to.

“Dozer 4” hitting a civilian vehicle, I gotta be honest, I laughed a little bit.

Anyway, fire season for us back east looks like it’ll be busier than last year. We had the wettest year on record last year over much of the Southeast, much drier this spring. I get to train some guys in our type 6 engine too. Nice ‘83 Chevy 3/4 ton with a skid unit that old, a 4 speed box and a very tired clutch. I hope I can get ahold of a D5 or something again this year.


----------



## bfrazier

catbuster said:


> I read that SF Chronicle article over the winter. Terrifying to picture. I drove through (d’oh) a tornado last June... Of all places trying to get to a basement (again, d’oh.) I think it was rated as an F2. To have higher wind speeds and higher temperatures than flashover (yeah... Type 1 engine operator/boss most of the time. I’ve been way too close once or twice) is mortifying.
> 
> Looking at the place that dozer operator stopped now, I can’t see how anybody would survive in the open station. I guess he had to make a decision where there were no good choices to make. Looks like he tried to park up and ride it out. What I want to know is where that big chunk of wood came from next to the dozer. Did he not have enough time to clear the bench? Did that 700 not have enough power to clear it? Could he not see it because of fire/weather conditions? I have so many questions about that particular scenario that I don’t think anyone still living has answers to.
> 
> “Dozer 4” hitting a civilian vehicle, I gotta be honest, I laughed a little bit.
> 
> Anyway, fire season for us back east looks like it’ll be busier than last year. We had the wettest year on record last year over much of the Southeast, much drier this spring. I get to train some guys in our type 6 engine too. Nice ‘83 Chevy 3/4 ton with a skid unit that old, a 4 speed box and a very tired clutch. I hope I can get ahold of a D5 or something again this year.



Imagine being there? 136 to 165 mile per hour winds, smoke, fire, debris. ****! How hard does stuff have to hit dozer glass to shatter it?






"Dozer 4 became disoriented when impacted by the flying debris. As a result, the dozer hit a civilian vehicle that was stopped alongBuenaventuraBoulevard. The impact caused the dozer operator tolandon the floor of his cab. The dozer continued to travel until it came to rest against a tree."

I melted the odd tail light, sticker, or other plastic doo-dad back in my time - can't even imagine this.


----------



## bfrazier

On the other hand, here's this old oak tree. It's by French Gulch road just off the highway west of Whiskeytown lake. (Very close to the Carr Fire point of origin) I always marveled at two things here: 1, the massive size of the tree, 2, the incredible fuel load it had all around it before the fire. Every time I saw this stretch I marveled at the fuel load. I had assumed this tree would be gone, but here it is, lost some lower limbs, but virtually no worse for wear otherwise - plenty of new leaves. Picture from a couple weeks ago - and maybe speaks to the value of old growth, especially this savanah type.

But I can't see the trees for the fuel load - I guess I'm ruin't.


----------



## TBS

The sand fire in Napa County is moving right along past 150 acres so far.

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lnu-sand/7348/14


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> The sand fire in Napa County is moving right along past 150 acres so far.
> 
> https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lnu-sand/7348/14










Erik


----------



## madhatte

Limited lift, weird that it's growing so quickly


----------



## rustykfd

My first fire for 2019.
243 Command Fire
DIVS-Zulu head of fire
20,350 acres

Got to do a little flying. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> Limited lift, weird that it's growing so quickly



There always seems to be a decent wind in that area. Wind gusts were up to 30mph near the fire.


----------



## madhatte

Ah, makes sense. I imagine the "sensitive individuals" downwind are complaining about smoke.


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> Ah, makes sense. I imagine the "sensitive individuals" downwind are complaining about smoke.



Yep, lol and asking if they should evac though they live 30 plus miles away.... Asking random people on Facebook.


----------



## TBS

And to continue the yearly tradition since 2002 there is a fire in or near the Golden trout wilderness of the Sequoia National Forest called the Manzanita.

https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bi...=20190609&camera=jordan_peak_2&lastFrame=true


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> And to continue the yearly tradition since 2002 there is a fire in or near the Golden trout wilderness of the Sequoia National Forest called the Manzanita.
> 
> https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bi...=20190609&camera=jordan_peak_2&lastFrame=true



They changed the name to Jordan because it is just over on the inyo national forest. That area is like an old sailors scraped knuckles with all of the fires that have burned through there.


----------



## Blue Oaks

We've already had a fire fairly close to me, maybe 5 miles away called the Malech Fire that burned a couple hundred acres. I'm getting more prepared this year. I've got my 8 watt VHF hand held radio programmed with a ton of channels ranging from Cal Fire Tactical, to our own tactical, to who knows what else. About 115 channels programmed by our radio guy. I also just installed a 50 watt mobile unit in my truck. It helps to have radio guys in the group. One is a former president of the radio club at Stanford, but he's not our expert lol. Our expert was a Captain in the Swedish Air Force in Electronic Counter Warfare. He's pretty knowledgeable !!!


----------



## TBS

Blue Oaks said:


> We've already had a fire fairly close to me, maybe 5 miles away called the Malech Fire that burned a couple hundred acres. I'm getting more prepared this year. I've got my 8 watt VHF hand held radio programmed with a ton of channels ranging from Cal Fire Tactical, to our own tactical, to who knows what else. About 115 channels programmed by our radio guy. I also just installed a 50 watt mobile unit in my truck. It helps to have radio guys in the group. One is a former president of the radio club at Stanford, but he's not our expert lol. Our expert was a Captain in the Swedish Air Force in Electronic Counter Warfare. He's pretty knowledgeable !!!



Good idea getting set up for this fire season. I'm surprised so many calfire units are still allowing people to burn. So far we've been quiet here in Fresno County but that is not unusual but with people being allowed to burn above 3000 feet and it is dry at 3000 4000 foot is green in the shade.


----------



## catbuster

Our T6 rig has only been out twice this year. Which is two more times than it had been out last year, but we had a record-breaking spring with rain last year. Everything’s green, or flooded insofar this year. Come late July/August that may change if the pattern follows normal trends.

We’ve gone to a UHF radio system. We did it a little over a year ago, and I’m still not much on it. We lose signal going down into basements or canyons. I like that my portable can call someone else across the county or into the next one over, but I don’t like the lag of it having to go to a tower and back. And if the towers go down... We’re on 8Call90 channels that are worse than VHF.


----------



## madhatte

We're already starting to lose all of our green. I suspect it's gonna be a busy one, with fuels curing out this quickly.


----------



## fool skip

I've got a question for you fire guys. I've got a Sugar Pine tree on BLM property about 75 feet from my property line and about 200 feet from my house. It's 32" on the stump and about 100' in height. This thing just flamed out red about 2 weeks ago. I have permission from BLM to cut it. I can utilize it with my chainsaw mill. My question is would I be better off to let it stand till Fall or fall it now and pile the brush? It's too late to burn and too hot for milling till Fall. I'm asking for a view firewise. Thanks!


----------



## madhatte

Gone red in the spring usually means it succumbed over the winter to drought stress the summer before. Odds are that it's not the only stressed tree nearby. Be on the lookout for more mortality over the next year. I don't have a strong opinion either way as to whether to cut it now or in the fall; standing dead and piled brush are two different hazards that amount to about the same risk. If your defensible space is well maintained, I'd think that either decision is about the same in the long run.


----------



## catbuster

Slash piles will light off easier, but a dead crown will give longer flame lengths & burn hotter. Two very different types of fire behavior, if you weigh everything it probably evens out-smaller hazard, more likely vs larger hazard but much less likely. If the one tree has redded out I’d be watching the others later this year.

It probably doesn’t matter if you wait or not. Especially if you have some space around your home/buildings/shop that’s clear.


----------



## madhatte

^ better words than mine


----------



## Drptrch

Hover hook-up
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bytjkrdhx66/?igshid=8sszn3olcptw


Erik


----------



## Jacob J.

fool skip said:


> I've got a question for you fire guys. I've got a Sugar Pine tree on BLM property about 75 feet from my property line and about 200 feet from my house. It's 32" on the stump and about 100' in height. This thing just flamed out red about 2 weeks ago. I have permission from BLM to cut it. I can utilize it with my chainsaw mill. My question is would I be better off to let it stand till Fall or fall it now and pile the brush? It's too late to burn and too hot for milling till Fall. I'm asking for a view firewise. Thanks!



As already stated, it's a zero-sum game in terms of fire danger - it really boils down to what works best for you. Do you have a good clear shot for falling the tree into? 



Drptrch said:


> Hover hook-up
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bytjkrdhx66/?igshid=8sszn3olcptw
> 
> 
> Erik



Done that many times. In the old days, when a person was getting their HECM/HEMG certification, a hover hook-up was required. I did my first hover hook-up under the Apple Valley S-58, which was quite the experience.


----------



## Drptrch

Jacob J. said:


> As already stated, it's a zero-sum game in terms of fire danger - it really boils down to what works best for you. Do you have a good clear shot for falling the tree into?
> 
> 
> 
> Done that many times. In the old days, when a person was getting their HECM/HEMG certification, a hover hook-up was required. I did my first hover hook-up under the Apple Valley S-58, which was quite the experience.



Were ya wearin this...







Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Technology!!
Watched my buddies Firing class @ Lake Sonoma 70 miles away via PG&E camera on Geyser Peak









Screen shot them for them 

Camera network:
http://www.alertwildfire.org/index.html


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Kindve an interesting blog on Instagram dealing with contracted catered lunches for the boot on the ground 

We’ve all known this, but for those that don’t 

Hoping to make it better 

https://www.instagram.com/p/By8n_Q0Bh3s/?igshid=1ahs148zc6l30


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Kindve an interesting blog on Instagram dealing with contracted catered lunches for the boot on the ground
> 
> We’ve all known this, but for those that don’t
> 
> Hoping to make it better
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/By8n_Q0Bh3s/?igshid=1ahs148zc6l30
> 
> 
> Erik



Taken on a fire one year, can’t rembervif it was 2 or 3 week run. Guy had the “total” nutrition values calculated.
Was like 2400 grams of fat 






Erik


----------



## Jacob J.

I've never understood most fire caterer's obsession with Uncrustables. 

We left some out for the animals one time and they wouldn't even touch 'em.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Taken on a fire one year, can’t rembervif it was 2 or 3 week run. Guy had the “total” nutrition values calculated.
> Was like 2400 grams of fat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



I remember you sharing that picture when we were discussing caterers on the old fire site. 





Jacob J. said:


> I've never understood most fire caterer's obsession with Uncrustables.
> 
> We left some out for the animals one time and they wouldn't even touch 'em.



Those things in my opinion are just nasty. They pick uncrustables because they are cheap. I remember some of lunches we had on a few fires... Ham sandwiches with cheese an apple and a few candy bars and roast beef that made me hate roast beef from then on.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> I remember you sharing that picture when we were discussing caterers on the old fire site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those things in my opinion are just nasty. They pick uncrustables because they are cheap. I remember some of lunches we had on a few fires... Ham sandwiches with cheese an apple and a few candy bars and roast beef that made me hate roast beef from then on.



Ah. The “Shimmery” beef sando, just have to pretend it’s pastrami. Got one like that, never ate one again 

Now this on the other hand is a staple






Erik


----------



## 2dogs

I had never heard of Uncrustables until the Soberanes fire in 2016. Everyone else I spoke with had those when they were growing up. I took several home to try. I couldn't finish one. Nasty things.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> I had never heard of Uncrustables until the Soberanes fire in 2016. Everyone else I spoke with had those when they were growing up. I took several home to try. I couldn't finish one. Nasty things.



It’s a “keep” frozen PB&J only somewhat good thawed out for a day....then the dried-out and jelly saturated bread takes on its own life 

Ya still workin’ in there ??


Erik


----------



## catbuster

Just when I had forgotten about those god awful lunches...

Oh well. This season is just around the corner.


----------



## ATpro

fool skip said:


> I've got a question for you fire guys. I've got a Sugar Pine tree on BLM property about 75 feet from my property line and about 200 feet from my house. It's 32" on the stump and about 100' in height. This thing just flamed out red about 2 weeks ago. I have permission from BLM to cut it. I can utilize it with my chainsaw mill. My question is would I be better off to let it stand till Fall or fall it now and pile the brush? It's too late to burn and too hot for milling till Fall. I'm asking for a view firewise. Thanks!



Cut it as soon as you can and don't wait. The reason is the longer you wait the more danger from falling dead wood from above. The longer the tree stands dead the more dangerous it is to cut. When clearing fire line or fire lanes in preparation for a burn the dead wood danger trees had to be removed first so you didn't get a Devil Tree or burning tree fall across your fire break. These Dead Wood trees "ARE THE ONES THAT GAVE ME NIGHTMARES".


----------



## RandyMac

I loved burning DF snags.


----------



## catbuster

Well... The ‘Glades are burning:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.su...vuzgcrelspdqz7qhcbu-story.html?outputType=amp


----------



## TBS

On this day June 30th of 2013 19 of Granite mountain hotshots lost their lives battling the yarnell hill fire. May they rest in peace and hopefully we can learn from this tragedy so that we do not repeat it.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> On this day June 30th of 2013 19 of Granite mountain hotshots lost their lives battling the yarnell hill fire. May they rest in peace and hopefully we can learn from this tragedy so that we do not repeat it.













Erik


----------



## TBS

Highway 41 fuels project.


----------



## TBS

Not fire but it involves a former firefighter and Calfire. I remember when bob(cal fire news) had a decent blog in 08 until he started posting lodd incidents before official comfirmation and got called out by a bunch of people on his blog. Now he's telling calfire to go f... Kids because they called him an unverified news source on Twitter.


----------



## Drptrch

Been quiet here .... So on the Modoc








Red dot “Tucker Fire”




Blue markers were from 2017 on the “Steele” (swamp) fire during Modoc Lightening siege


Erik


----------



## madhatte

We haven't had anything really interesting so far this season, just the usual problem children. I'd say we're about 90% of the way to Done With The Usual Suspects. Our weirdly wet July has sort of shifted everything back by a month. Either August is gonna be busy as hell or we're already almost done. Hard to tell really.


----------



## catbuster

We’re really dry here in the southeast. We did have the second record wet spring, but since June there’s been 2” of rain in total. Things are crispy and we’ve done some grass fires. Short flame lengths, mostly pretty easy to handle. My guys up in PA said it was pretty dry up until last week when they had rounds of storms that seemingly wouldn’t end. 

With that said, there was a close call where we had a fire almost get into the woods and run. The dozer had been called, and I was on the way back to go get the 461. Then some genius went, grabbed (appropriated) a 15’ bush hog and dropped it to the ground right close to a couple type 1 engines and that handled it.


----------



## madhatte

I do love a brush hog.


----------



## TBS

Nevada is ripping off some acreage today

Goose fire northeast part of the state has blown past 3500 acres. Further south in the Ruby range the corta fire is pushing 6000 acres the shafter fire is doing the same.

Goose fire from knoll mountain.
http://www.alertwildfire.org/blmnv/index.html


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## Ted Jenkins

I am not a big fan of California's Gavin, but he did something that made a great deal of sense. He told the California Air Resource Board to go pound sand. He says, but I am not sure if this will have an ideal effect or not. The Cal Fire in my neighborhood people said that they will utilize the burning to the best outcome. Cal Fire and the USDA supposedly can now burn vegetation regardless of the air quality. Fire season is just now heating in my area after a very good spring with low fire restrictions. 

Southern California Edison has also stepped up their program to upgrade all their power grids to evade any fire potential from faulty power line. In the San Bernardino Mountain area they have already spent hundreds of millions of dollars to remove any vegetation near the power lines. Then they have replaced hundred or maybe thousands of power poles that appear to be aged. Much of the wood has been chipped up. but if the efforts help reduce the devastation that happened in Paradise last year it will be worth while. Thanks


----------



## RandyMac

https://www.weather.gov/eka/


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## Drptrch

North coast gettin pounded by lightning now




Should be interesting tomorrow 


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

280 down strikes last night, in Mendocino, Del Norte, Humboldt, & Trinity counties, bet tails are being chased.


----------



## Blue Oaks

We've been lucky down here in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Nothing to speak of so far this year. Come to think of it, there hasn't been a whole lot statewide so far this year. It was only last year that they talked about fire season being close to year round.


----------



## RandyMac

Mother Nature, ''hold my beer''


----------



## catbuster

RandyMac said:


> Mother Nature, ''hold my beer''



We’re all waiting... It’s about that time where it just won’t stop for three months.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> 280 down strikes last night, in Mendocino, Del Norte, Humboldt, & Trinity counties, bet tails are being chased.



KNF has 15 open incidents, mostly around The Marble’s 


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

I'm headed to Scott Valley tomorrow, hope it isn't smoked out.


----------



## RandyMac

The Valley was clear, watched meteors.


----------



## Gypo Logger

The worlds biggest forest fire is burning in Siberia over 2 million acres as of last Sunday.
Will this cause climate change and has this happened before?


----------



## Gypo Logger

Glorified blades of grass I say, glorified blades of grass.


----------



## catbuster

Yup, it’s burning. And yup, some people smarter than you and I with no agenda to push are saying it does:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.eu...-in-siberia-covers-an-area-bigger-than-the-eu

It is what it is, and the Russians don’t care. It’s not affecting their people in most places so they’re just letting it burn.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Trump offers to help Putin fight Russian forest fires
https://amp.businessinsider.com/trump-helping-hand-putin-wildfires-ravage-russia-2019-8


----------



## Gypo Logger

On second thought, there’s no cause for concern. The fire in Siberia is only 2 million acres and Alaska is only 424 million acres in size, so nothing to get into a twist about.


----------



## Drptrch

Gypo Logger said:


> On second thought, there’s no cause for concern. The fire in Siberia is only 2 million acres and Alaska is only 424 million acres in size, so nothing to get into a twist about.



Other way around. 

Slightly more than 2 million Acres in Alaska and anywhere from 5-7million Hectares in Siberia.
A Hectare is approx 2.5 acres, So.....




Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Other way around.
> 
> Slightly more than 2 million Acres in Alaska and anywhere from 5-7million Hectares in Siberia.
> A Hectare is approx 2.5 acres, So.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik



....And approximately 240, 000 chains between them 


Erik


----------



## Hddnis

Drptrch said:


> Other way around.
> 
> Slightly more than 2 million Acres in Alaska and anywhere from 5-7million Hectares in Siberia.
> A Hectare is approx 2.5 acres, So.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik




You are referring to fire sizes?

Land area of Alaska, including waters, is 421,120,900 acres. I assumed he was comparing the fire size of 2 mil. acres to the land area of Alaska, but now I'm confused.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Drptrch said:


> Other way around.
> 
> Slightly more than 2 million Acres in Alaska and anywhere from 5-7million Hectares in Siberia.
> A Hectare is approx 2.5 acres, So.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erik


When the article appeared there we’re 900,000 hectares burning, so I’m sure it’s much bigger now unless it blew itself out.
I wonder if this is confined to one fire or several fires?


----------



## Gypo Logger

Rather than coming up with exact numbers, let’s put the size of this Siberian fire into perspective .
The state of Delaware is approximately 1.6 million acres in size so this Russian fire exceeds that by approximately .5million acres.


----------



## Drptrch

Gypo Logger said:


> The worlds biggest forest fire is burning in Siberia over 2 million acres as of last Sunday.
> Will this cause climate change and has this happened before?



Maybe it was 2 million Hectares, which would be between 5-6 million acres. 

There’s also total this year #’s and currently burning amounts

In any case it’s a lot 

You’ve had a big year up there too, slow so far down here on the west 


Erik


----------



## Gypo Logger

Drptrch said:


> Maybe it was 2 million Hectares, which would be between 5-6 million acres.
> 
> There’s also total this year #’s and currently burning amounts
> 
> In any case it’s a lot
> 
> You’ve had a big year up there too, slow so far down here on the west
> 
> 
> Erik


Yes indeed, we were on vacation alert, but we just lost a paltry 500 hectares of goonwood. It blazed a swath just 5 miles from my house and just missed my guvment forest block by 1 mile, but wished it had taken that too.


----------



## dallasak

Still cooking around here 
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/201...ordered-as-wind-stokes-willow-area-wildfires/


----------



## Ted Jenkins

Will this lead to global cooling. I have been telling my neighbors not to worry about this global warming thing since we always want ocean front property. Thanks


----------



## atpchas

Interesting article on global fire patterns, trends:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145421/building-a-long-term-record-of-fire


----------



## Blue Oaks

atpchas said:


> Interesting article on global fire patterns, trends:
> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145421/building-a-long-term-record-of-fire



"There are really two separate trends,” said Randerson. “Even as the global burned area number has declined because of what is happening in savannas, we are seeing a significant increase in the intensity and reach of fires in the western United States because of climate change.”

I'd totally buy it if it weren't for this year in CA. I mean, did climate change take the year off?

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/08/20/california-wildfire-acreage-decrease

"California's Department of Forestry and Fire Protection says this year's wildfires have burned 90% less acreage compared to last year."


----------



## catbuster

Blue Oaks said:


> "There are really two separate trends,” said Randerson. “Even as the global burned area number has declined because of what is happening in savannas, we are seeing a significant increase in the intensity and reach of fires in the western United States because of climate change.”
> 
> I'd totally buy it if it weren't for this year in CA. I mean, did climate change take the year off?
> 
> https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/08/20/california-wildfire-acreage-decrease
> 
> "California's Department of Forestry and Fire Protection says this year's wildfires have burned 90% less acreage compared to last year."



Last year the majority of the big fires that burned most of the acreage didn’t occur until October or later. The early season stuff is pretty piddly and doesn’t take much to lose 90%. Don’t worry, it will pick up. Overall trends don’t care about one aberration anyway. 

The science doesn’t care what you buy or not. The climate is changing, wether humans are affecting it and the degree is up for debate. The fact that after the last few seasons more work is being done for fire prevention than previously will prevent a lot of the early season piddly stuff or limit it.


----------



## Drptrch

catbuster said:


> Last year the majority of the big fires that burned most of the acreage didn’t occur until October or later. The early season stuff is pretty piddly and doesn’t take much to lose 90%. Don’t worry, it will pick up. Overall trends don’t care about one aberration anyway.
> 
> The science doesn’t care what you buy or not. The climate is changing, wether humans are affecting it and the degree is up for debate. The fact that after the last few seasons more work is being done for fire prevention than previously will prevent a lot of the early season piddly stuff or limit it.



The 4 biggest started in July, excluding The Camp (Paradise) and Woolsey that started same day the first week of November and Delta ( Dunsmuir) in October. 


Erik


----------



## catbuster

Drptrch said:


> The 4 biggest started in July, excluding The Camp (Paradise) and Woolsey that started same day the first week of November and Delta ( Dunsmuir) in October.
> 
> 
> Erik



I stand corrected. I came out in November.

The second part of that post is still valid.


----------



## Blue Oaks

I have no doubt as we get deeper into the fire season we'll see a lot more acreage burned. My point was we kept hearing how "fire season is going to be year round" and not only was this season on the low side, it was dramatically lower up to this point, off the charts lower. 

I don't know what climate change is doing to increase hot dry winds in the fall, but certainly those winds have been around for as long as I've been alive. Keeping ignition down in those critical times is far, far more important than clearing brush on 1/10 of 1% of the land out there.

On another note, I was smoking a brisket (first one, turned out great) on Sat evening when I turned on my radio and tuned it to the local Cal Fire repeater (SCU Loma) and immediately heard a bunch of tones then a laundry list of assets being sent to the next canyon over, about five miles away. After the air support couldn't find anything, the ground crews ID'd the fire as a BBQ in the campground in the area...


----------



## catbuster

I’ll just leave this here.


----------



## Drptrch

Predicted Wednesday 

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/north-ops-weather-2019/8035/34?u=drptrch


Erik


----------



## madhatte

Foehn winds forecast here over the next couple of days. Probably the last significant fire weather of the year for us.


----------



## catbuster

Probably best for everybody. The college kids are gone and after last year everyone could use a break. I wasn’t out west this year and I only had to grease my White’s & Nicks once this summer.


----------



## madhatte

I would have liked at least one good fat paycheck, just sayin'. Got a couple of middlin' ones but nothing like last year.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## madhatte

Arggh, NorCal doesn't need that at all.


----------



## Blue Oaks

No it doesn't!

At least this year I'm more prepared for a local fire. I've got 50 watt radios in my garage and truck, both programmed with the Cal Fire local repeater and Tac channels. Also a couple hand held 8 watters programmed. Further, I tested my next door neighbor's fire hydrant fed by 5000 gallons in tanks on the hill. I got about 5 gallons out before it went dry. Apparently the pipe broke while they were on vacation, and the gardener turned off a valve and didn't tell anyone. SMH. That is now repaired and ready for testing again. The tanks are a looong way up the hill, so I'm hoping the pressure will be sufficient to run one of my 1 1/2" hose and nozzles, in addition to being a great place to fill tenders.

Bad news is my "fire fighting" water pump I bought won't start. I'm glad I figured that out before I tried to get it all set up with a fire bearing down on me!


----------



## RandyMac

madhatte said:


> Arggh, NorCal doesn't need that at all.


Southern Oregon could use a break as well.


----------



## atpchas

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/i...emperatures-influence-californias-fire-season
No surprises, but some interesting observations.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Has there been any studies done on changes to the patterns of hot, fast winds? In CA the #1 destructive force is the high winds that fan the flames.


----------



## madhatte

Foehn winds are well understood. The driver of the increased frequency and intensity is the subject of the article linked above.


----------



## Drptrch

Fire switch was turned on in Ca today

Plumas NF , East of Quincy, Ca








Murrieta, Ca SoCal





Inyo NF Taboose Creek area off of 395 @ Big Pines


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Calif lighting up today. The season is here 


Erik


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Calif lighting up today. The season is here
> 
> 
> Erik



The Tenaja fire ran out of fuel when it hit the fuel break at that subdivision.


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Fire switch was turned on in Ca today
> 
> Plumas NF , East of Quincy, Ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murrieta, Ca SoCal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inyo NF Taboose Creek area off of 395 @ Big Pines
> 
> 
> Erik



Red bank fire is 6000 acres now west of Redding.
3 fires are visible on the cohasset hill camera,the red bank, one a few miles west, and one further west.
http://www.alertwildfire.org/shastamodoc/index.html
One north of hayfork just getting started in some nasty country.

The collier fire off I5 and highway 96 was building some heat at sunset. The lone fire on the modoc has burned 2592 acres since 4pm.


----------



## madhatte

A thought: we have been mapping fires for years. We have been mapping fuels sorta for years but not well. What if we mapped fuels as say a per acre calorie value to track before/after fire risk on a raster so that we could estimate both current and future fire intensities both before and after fires? That is, if a big fire happens it resets at zero for every cell in the raster until more data comes in and before any of you clowns say "that sounds like graduate research work" I'm gonna say yeah but not me because I have actual work to do and show me the money etc. This is probably a napkin sketch at a GTG and if any of you who see me in NorCal in a few weeks let me forget this well I will probably whine up a storm.


----------



## TBS

Satellite Shot of the Walker fire.


----------



## TBS

Fun fact to share about the rim fire from 2013.. it's still not out, an underground fire was discovered in 2014 near cherry lake where the rim fire burned, it is called the rosasco incident. Stanislaus national forest is conducting a firing operation around it.


----------



## Drptrch

I was there with Hazard Fallers, and here it is







Erik


----------



## Gologit

Interesting read. Comments?

http://www.independent.org/publicat...5qIYLDIbbPVnzYx94nQFrhiEYeZ8hcNcaAl5TEALw_wcB


----------



## catbuster

Gologit said:


> Interesting read. Comments?
> 
> http://www.independent.org/publicat...5qIYLDIbbPVnzYx94nQFrhiEYeZ8hcNcaAl5TEALw_wcB



It seems like they’re just beating on CalFire and marginalizing the effect private industry has had. Particularly with the bit on how CalFire is at fault for taking charge over local agencies. Local agencies can’t handle the current conditions. Had more proactive measures been taken... They might be able to. 

They’re not wrong in saying CalFire has a lot to do with what was going on, but I sense a distinct Libertarian bias to that article. I don’t know, I don’t live there. I usually just come in and out as needed. I mean, “CNN drops”? What kind of semi-scholarly article goes in and specifically calls out the verbal punching bag for the “fake news” crowd? 

I think the gist of what’s being said is probably right. I don’t know how to be proactive while also handling the current situation in the summer & fall with fires short of a massive effort.


----------



## madhatte

Good article. It all tracks with my experience.


----------



## Saiso

Soon leaving for 8 days for my Advanced Wildland Fire Behaviour Course!


----------



## Jacob J.

Saiso said:


> Soon leaving for 8 days for my Advanced Wildlife Behavior Course!



Will they explain at the course why dogs walk in a circle before they lay down?


----------



## TBS

Jacob J. said:


> Will they explain at the course why dogs walk in a circle before they lay down?



I think he meant wildfire behavior.lol.


----------



## Saiso

TheBrushSlasher said:


> I think he meant wildfire behavior.lol.


Correct. Typo I guest. Advanced Wildland Fire Behaviour

I would like to know about the dog thing though! I’ll ask tomorrow...


----------



## Drptrch

Jacob J. said:


> Will they explain at the course why dogs walk in a circle before they lay down?



Cause they can !!


Erik


----------



## madhatte

I"m guessing Advanced Wildland Fire Behavior is Canuckistanian for S-390? If so, I hope they teach you how to use nomograms, those things are cool.


----------



## Cfaller

390 is basically a waste of a week learning to do nomograms which no one will use. 490 where you'll learn how to use behave plus is a good class.


----------



## madhatte

Did I do 490? I don't remember. I know I've used Behave. Maybe that was RX341? Can't remember. Too many classes. Yeah, nomograms are probably not useful, but they are super cool. I really like how much information is presented in one place.


----------



## Drptrch

From last years Fatal Ferguson Fire near Yosemite 

https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2019/bringing-home-braden/


Erik


----------



## RandyMac

local fire season is done here, plenty of rain with more on the way.


----------



## Drptrch

Erik


----------



## Saiso

madhatte said:


> Did I do 490? I don't remember. I know I've used Behave. Maybe that was RX341? Can't remember. Too many classes. Yeah, nomograms are probably not useful, but they are super cool. I really like how much information is presented in one place.


We are doing the S-490.
Very interesting but this is for smart people for sure! We’ve only started vectoring yesterday. Saw weather, fuel types/properties, topography, etc. Surely will become more intense as we keep going.

We are here for a week. Day 4 today


----------



## atpchas

Our mates down under have their problems, too.
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145599/drought-exacerbates-australian-fires


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Erik



That reminds me of my conversation Corp crew when we had to get fuel, super always put the smokers by the propane tank.


----------



## TBS

The only section of the merced river canyon along 140 to not burn or reburn in the last 20 years is now burning. The briceburg has burned 50(?) acres. They almost caught it until it jumped to the east side of bear creek which has no access and some roads are blocking dozer transport access. It's steep as hell all around but at least it's not that hot.



Mount bullion has a great view. 
http://www.alertwildfire.org/sierra/

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-mmu-snf-briceburg/9742/18


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> The only section of the merced river canyon along 140 to not burn or reburn in the last 20 years is now burning. The briceburg has burned 50(?) acres. They almost caught it until it jumped to the east side of bear creek which has no access and some roads are blocking dozer transport access. It's steep as hell all around but at least it's not that hot.
> 
> 
> 
> Mount bullion has a great view.
> http://www.alertwildfire.org/sierra/
> 
> https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-mmu-snf-briceburg/9742/18



Does Bear Creek come in near the Bridge where Briceburg Rd hits 140 across from the Burma grade ??


Erik


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Does Bear Creek come in near the Bridge where Briceburg Rd hits 140 across from the Burma grade ??
> 
> 
> Erik



Yes it does.


----------



## TBS

They did firing ops last night and early this morning but things have gone sideways since and the fire is now approaching the Ferguson burn scar.


----------



## Drptrch

The Southern Migration has begun and in full effect 


Erik


----------



## catbuster

I’m interested in seeing how this Saddlebridge fire pans out in North LA. Lots of urban in the term urban interface there.

100,000 already evacuated with ~7550 acres at 13% containment.


----------



## Drptrch

October fire weather continues to be in FULL swing in the West and Lower Rockies 


Erik


----------



## Drptrch

Poised and ready in SoCal







Erik


----------



## madhatte

New tracks, that won't last long.


----------



## Blue Oaks

I was down at Cal Fire SCU's HQ last week for a planning meeting. After we decided on the training for the upcoming season, I got a short tour of the ECC there. Wow, what a setup. They had 5 or 6 pods setup and ready to go. He said they also have a bunch of suitcases ready to be mobile in case the HQ gets demolished by a collapsed dam. 

They said if we'd like a "sit along" we can do that and watch the action sometime.


----------



## grizz55chev

Took a ride up to Tahoe yesterday for my granddaughters 21 st birthday, saw smoke as soon as we left Auburn off to the north. We followed it all the way up, it was coming from the area around Stampede reservoir, they must of got it out because I see no news reports of it today! By the way, PGand E MAY just shut the power off again today!


----------



## TBS

grizz55chev said:


> Took a ride up to Tahoe yesterday for my granddaughters 21 st birthday, saw smoke as soon as we left Auburn off to the north. We followed it all the way up, it was coming from the area around Stampede reservoir, they must of got it out because I see no news reports of it today! By the way, PGand E MAY just shut the power off again today!



Prescribed burn was going on up there yesterday.


----------



## grizz55chev

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Prescribed burn was going on up there yesterday.


And tomorrow they’ll be turning the power off, again! Prescribed burns this time of year make very little sense to me, wait until the conditions are more favorable, for Pete’s sake !


----------



## madhatte

grizz55chev said:


> wait until the conditions are more favorable, for Pete’s sake !



The way burn prescriptions are written, you need the conditions to be receptive to fire or there is no benefit to it. There are contingencies built in as well. After all of the approvals are signed and all of the phone calls made, there remains a final go/no-go checklist. Gone are the days of indiscriminate burning. Even the view impacts are considered, such as "will the smoke make it hard to see thing X from location Y?" Only when all of these conditions are met does the Burn Boss pull the trigger on a burn. You will not find a more risk-averse crowd than the RX burn community. I can assure you that this is indeed the right time of year for that burn or it wouldn't have happened. The prescription is likely a matter of public record -- if you're curious, you can probably get a copy and see where it was and what fuels were targeted and for which ecological goals.


----------



## catbuster

madhatte said:


> The way burn prescriptions are written, you need the conditions to be receptive to fire or there is no benefit to it. There are contingencies built in as well. After all of the approvals are signed and all of the phone calls made, there remains a final go/no-go checklist. Gone are the days of indiscriminate burning. Even the view impacts are considered, such as "will the smoke make it hard to see thing X from location Y?" Only when all of these conditions are met does the Burn Boss pull the trigger on a burn. You will not find a more risk-averse crowd than the RX burn community. I can assure you that this is indeed the right time of year for that burn or it wouldn't have happened. The prescription is likely a matter of public record -- if you're curious, you can probably get a copy and see where it was and what fuels were targeted and for which ecological goals.



That’s a much better description & explanation than me giving out “Well, we burn when the stuff is ready to burn and the weather looks like it will work out so we don’t burn the whole place down. It just makes more sense and works better that way.” 

I’ll just go ahead and second what Nate said above. It’s all correct, and at least in my area you can do an ORR (or just call the responsible agency, they’ll probably send it to you via fax or e-mail for free) and get the description, approvals, assets involved, yada.


----------



## grizz55chev

I respect his opinion on how it is meant to happen ,but I’ve also seen these burns get out of control. It happend less than 5 miles from my home last spring and it left a pretty ugly mess right in the Tahoe National Forest seed orchard above our town of Foresthill. 3 days later there was another incident where things got serious another 5 miles up the hill, they claimed that the 2 incidents were unrelated, but it was pretty clear that they were. Mistakes happen, and I know prescribed burns are necessary to prevent the big ones, so Nate’s input is noted and appreciated. We live with the possibility of major fires every year about this time, it’s just part of life when you live in a forest, should be over in the next few weeks, then it’s all about the snow storms!


----------



## catbuster

I don’t want to come across as to big of a ****, overly confrontational, or act like I’m talking down to you, but how can you be sure those two particular incidents were related? I mean, I wasn’t witness to anything in Tahoe or really anything in NorCal since Camp last year, but that’s a pretty bold statement coming from someone who just asked why they’re done at this time of year.

Five miles up the hill several days later is a pretty big spread. The same crew may have been on it, which may have had an effect, but I’d strongly recommend you do your research before saying something of to that ilk. Or you may have, and I may be a moron. 

But, again, I’d recommend reading the incident reports from the individual incidents, which again, are easy to get, before just going out and claiming that it was obvious when a subject matter expert may be able to see and judge minute details that the casual observer may not notice.


----------



## grizz55chev

catbuster said:


> I don’t want to come across as to big of a ****, overly confrontational, or act like I’m talking down to you, but how can you be sure those two particular incidents were related? I mean, I wasn’t witness to anything in Tahoe or really anything in NorCal since Camp last year, but that’s a pretty bold statement coming from someone who just asked why they’re done at this time of year.
> 
> Five miles up the hill several days later is a pretty big spread. The same crew may have been on it, which may have had an effect, but I’d strongly recommend you do your research before saying something of to that ilk. Or you may have, and I may be a moron.
> 
> But, again, I’d recommend reading the incident reports from the individual incidents, which again, are easy to get, before just going out and claiming that it was obvious when a subject matter expert may be able to see and judge minute details that the casual observer may not notice.


Does working in the area and having to drive through the fire as it happend count, cause that’s how I came to my conclusion. The control burn smoldered for weeks after both incidents. My opinion is just that, to be clear, so take it as such. I also saw aerial views of both scenes after the fact, it was all replanted after a major burn in the early 1960’s, they only replanted ponderosa pine and there was a lot of standing dead from the beetle infestation that has devastated our area. That area is also above town so no structures, power lines Or businesses.


----------



## madhatte

I want to make the point of using precise language here, because it's important. We are speaking here of "prescribed fire" or "prescribed burning". You will not hear the phrase "controlled burn" in the business, because that phrase is not meaningful. A wildfire that is contained is "controlled" but was not intended. The "prescription" part of a prescribed fire means that it is done to achieve specific goals under specific conditions. It is not at all unusual for those goals to include consuming large fuels such as stumps and logs, which may well smolder for some time after the main body of the fire has ended. This will be written into the prescription and will be mitigated as a spotting hazard as well as communicated through state and local agencies as smoke to not report as new fires. There should be signs along roads as well. The perception from the public is increasingly the number one driver of RX burn planning, as one complaining neighbor can sour a county or state agency to burns for years. Internally, your opinion and those of your neighbors has a huge effect on how those burns are planned. I recommend contacting your local FD or CalFire or maybe even whoever is your local clean air agency and asking what they know about the permitting and planning process. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how thorough the system has become as regards protecting public safety.


----------



## TBS

The **** is hitting the fan north of Santa rosa, the kincade fire is 2000+ acres and running hard.
http://www.alertwildfire.org/northbay/

https://forums.wildfireintel.org/t/ca-lnu-kincade/10136


----------



## TBS

https://m.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/20854


----------



## Drptrch

Sonoma County Sheriff copter ( Henery 1) 
Just stated 5000 now, but it is night 

Our LG Strike team that was prepositioned is staged in Southern Sonoma County now, 


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## Drptrch

From Santa Rosa looking NE







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## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Sonoma County Sheriff copter ( Henery 1)
> Just stated 5000 now, but it is night
> 
> Our LG Strike team that was prepositioned is staged in Southern Sonoma County now,
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just Assigned to the incident, 0700 in brief 


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## Drptrch

There she be 

https://rammb-slider.cira.colostate...nus&p[0]=cira_natural_fire_color&x=556&y=3868


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## Blue Oaks

Now at 10k acres with 60 MPH winds. 

https://www.ktvu.com/news/wind-whipped-wildfire-forcing-evacuations-in-northeastern-sonoma-county


----------



## Blue Oaks

Some amazing pictures in this article.

https://www.sfgate.com/california-w...rth-Sonoma-County-14559006.php#photo-18492244


----------



## madhatte

Looks like it'll run into the burn areas from the Tubbs and Clayton fires to the North and East before long. I reckon any containment is good containment.


----------



## TBS

The Tubbs fire is south of this one, this fire started near Cobb which is in the west side of the valley fire scar. The clayton is farther east at lower lake.


----------



## madhatte

OK the maps I'm seeing aren't super clear and I am going by memory and not looking up the old data, so it's no surprise that I'm off. Still a bummer to see that area hit again so soon.


----------



## Drptrch

South East of 2017 Pocket fire of Sonoma fires https://ftp.nifc.gov/public/inciden...12_Central_LNU_Complex_CALNU010045_POCKET.pdf





2 Strike Teams and Dozer from Marin 


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## TBS

The kincade ran south today. We have possible historic wind event predicted starting tomorrow.


----------



## madhatte

"Historic Wind Event" is the kind of phrase I don't care much to hear.


----------



## madhatte

A good friend of mine is an atmospheric scientist in Santa Rosa. He posts useful local weather stuff as appropriate, and this is today's post.



PZ said:


> Smoke/wind update heading into the weekend: Possible smoke accumulation Saturday, super-strong northeasterly winds carrying smoke from the #KincadeFire to the coast on Sunday.
> 
> Saturday's winds will be light - a kind of calm before the storm, if you will (see first image). The problem with light winds is that the wind direction becomes very uncertain. For Santa Rosa, depending in the weather model, winds could be northwesterly, northeasterly, or southerly. Obviously, light northerly is the wind direction we're worried about for gradual smoke transport into Healdsburg, Santa Rosa, Rohnert Park, and farther south. Throughout the day Saturday, light winds will allow smoke to accumulate, becoming dense and leading to worse smoke impacts near the fire. Whether Santa Rosa gets hammered with that dense smoke will depend on what direction the winds take, and it may change throughout the day. Possibly making matter worse, after high temperatures in the low-90s today, temps will drop into the 40s tonight, producing a strong temperature inversion and trapping smoke near the ground again. Check AirNow.gov or PurpleAir.com (recommend using the LRAPA conversion) for local conditions. If it's over 100 AQI, or if you see or smell smoke, stay indoors if possible, or at least reduce outdoor activity.
> 
> Sunday is another story altogether. We're looking at possibly the strongest wind event in the last 10 years, with sustained winds around 20-25 mph developing early in the morning (second image), and gusts over 50 mph (even stronger over higher terrain). The wind direction will generally be northeasterly, with variations from east-northeasterly to north-northeasterly. The result will be smoke transport to the southwest of the fire, just to the north of Guerneville, towards Jenner, and off the coast.
> 
> Important detail: I'm talking about transport of *new* smoke, directly from the fire. If, for instance, there's gradual smoke transport to the south on Saturday (into Santa Rosa and farther south), the northeasterly winds will carry that smoke into Sebastopol and other communities to the west.
> 
> Obviously, with strong offshore winds and very low humidity, fire danger will be high on Sunday into Monday. Stay safe.


----------



## TBS

https://socoemergency.org/fire-info/


----------



## Drptrch

mandatory evacuation notice now included to the coast 

Winds have been favorable. Lots of firing on the South East corner. 




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## Blue Oaks

I'm watching video of the Cove Fire in Vallejo. Pretty dramatic footage. My power is out. I'm heading to Vegas. #refugee


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> mandatory evacuation notice now included to the coast
> 
> Winds have been favorable. Lots of firing on the South East corner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



0200 winds started cranking. 
60-80 mph 
**** hit the fan 
Blowing out all over especially SE side, back side of Geysers towards Calistoga and SW towards Windsor




Mt St Helena looking West 


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## Hddnis

They evacuated the hospitals in Santa Rosa. Evacuation all the way to Hwy 12


----------



## madhatte

Not good.


----------



## Drptrch

Today’s map

https://ftp.nifc.gov/public/inciden...ort_20191028_0034_Kincade_CALNU019376_opt.pdf

Branched out:

https://ftp.nifc.gov/public/inciden..._e_port_20191028_0059_Kincade_CALNU019376.pdf




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## atpchas

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/i...-smoky-wildfires-in-california-mexico?src=nha

Perhaps the scariest statement:
"Recent research has shown that fires in California have grown more frequent and larger in recent decades due to rising temperatures. Annual burned area in the state increased by 405 percent from 1972 to 2018."


----------



## madhatte

~400% in ~40 years is significant. There's no way around that.


----------



## RandyMac

FFS! it isn't the rise in temp, it is the lack of wildland management and excessive fire suppression, many areas haven't seen fire or the hand of Man in 50 years, the fuel load is intense.


----------



## madhatte

Well, that and all of the neighborhoods built up in box canyons. They don't cause the fires but they do jack up the cost of both suppression and recovery. Oh and of course the high cost of public opinion and negative press. I think the counties need to bear more responsibility for this one because they're who permits the construction in those locations where the fuels are loaded and the topography favors large fire growth. The rise in temperature is absolutely an issue and will become more of an issue over time, but much more immediately the land use problems need addressed.


----------



## Drptrch

North winds howling. Testing the lines again 
Hammered with the big boys today

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0kIzl-Y4gIz0wW4bGf3X76D3g


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## TBS

We had a had a good sized structure fire the night before, they pretty much lost everything. It was a mixed bag of agencies with calfire, usfs, auberry volunteer, and possibly buckskin fire department from parker strip Arizona with their quad cad tender out on a coverage assignment


----------



## Ted Jenkins

RandyMac said:


> FFS! it isn't the rise in temp, it is the lack of wildland management and excessive fire suppression, many areas haven't seen fire or the hand of Man in 50 years, the fuel load is intense.



Just outside of San Bernardino CA 18 homes were affected last night with some completely destroyed. Over and over again i hear the different fire agencies claim that they have never seen any thing like the fire weather we have. You can expect to have a fire in tall brush with 60 MPH winds because its normal so train for it. No effort at all by the home owners or county or cal fire went in to any prevention in that particular area. The grass and brush have been allowed to grow with out any restraint. I was very pleased that the agencies were able to work together and stopped the disaster from continuing. However Cal Fire and the prison group have been reducing fuel around my neighborhood. Thanks


----------



## Hddnis

Have family in the Monterey area. They are not allowed to do any brush control on the steep hillside below their house because of it being a scenic easement. (I think that is what it was called) County level thing, they can't mow, thin the trees, remove standing dead, control the vines, etc. They were ordered to stop maintaining the walking trail they had to access the bottom edge of their property. They still do trail maintenance, but instead of using power tools they pay a bunch of illegals in cash to do it quietly with machetes.

It sounds harsh, but I really think California is getting the inevitable consequences of many failed policies.


----------



## Drptrch

Making a stand that worked, overnight firing op in 50 mph favorable winds 


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## Hddnis

Drptrch said:


> Making a stand that worked, overnight firing op in 50 mph favorable winds
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I wondered if they would do that. It made sense, lots of risk, but weighed against what they knew was coming it seemed like the best tactic.


----------



## Drptrch

Final map for Kincade Fire 





Tendered in Div’s M, H, P, F & D 

This was the evacuation zone map.
7 of 10 input simulation maps produced this model, that if it jumped to west side of Hwy 101 it had potential to run corridors the Pacific. Thick flashy Grass, Eucs and scattered timber stands. 28 miles to the coast










My house and family are the red mark just below Sebastopol. 
Anxious but all good for them while I was out 


Have FUN and be safe ... Tyler watch for the P. Oak !!


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## atpchas

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/08/7776...e-we-ve-simply-never-had-this-number-of-fires

And their summer is just beginning....


----------



## atpchas

Satellite pictures of Australian fires
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145859/early-season-fires-burning-in-new-south-wales
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145861/bushfires-still-raging-in-new-south-wales


----------



## Blue Oaks

Dang.


----------



## Blue Oaks

These look pretty cool. I wish I had room to turn a trailer around at my house.

http://www.multiquip.com/multiquip/pdfs/Water_Trailer_Brochure_463481.pdf


----------



## Ted Jenkins

atpchas said:


> https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/i...-smoky-wildfires-in-california-mexico?src=nha
> Perhaps the scariest statement:
> "Recent research has shown that fires in California have grown more frequent and larger in recent decades due to rising temperatures. Annual burned area in the state increased by 405 percent from 1972 to 2018."



I see that implication not true or stretched some that fires have increased. I certainly do not believe in the climate change thing. I was recently talking with my USFS resource management officer. She said when she first became involved with FS and her husband noted how much area they were involved with prescribed burning. Now just in the last twenty years the formula has changed quite a bit as far as formulating plans for fuel reduction. When I was using a drip torch forty years ago we laid out a plan watched the weather and started burning with a few folks driving around watching for spot fires. A couple of years ago a area that I had worked on many many years ago was ripe for some fuel reduction. A plan was laid out with four hundred personnel showing up after several months of planning. That is ridiculous when a dozen will do. Thus fuel reduction is not taking place. Then Air Management has put the brakes on a majority of prescribed projects and still more projects not being done. So I conclude that with fuel or vegetation being allowed more freedom to expand it has become a more hazardous situation. Thanks


----------



## Hddnis

Blue Oaks said:


> These look pretty cool. I wish I had room to turn a trailer around at my house.
> 
> http://www.multiquip.com/multiquip/pdfs/Water_Trailer_Brochure_463481.pdf



If anyone gets something like this you need to get a high pressure pump and a black tank. Then add extra hose and fittings and get quality stuff, not plastic.


----------



## catbuster

Hddnis said:


> If anyone gets something like this you need to get a high pressure pump and a black tank. Then add extra hose and fittings and get quality stuff, not plastic.



I don’t know about that... Our type six rig has a 1983 Poly-Tank with a “high pressure” (~150 psi tops) 1980s Briggs pump on it. The plumbing on it is... Metal, it’s NPT with brass NH/NST hose connections but I’ve never had to take it apart to tell if it’s ductile, steel, etc. It’ll run a booster reel or an 1.75” trash line with a variable gallonage combination nozzle real well.

That unit looks just fine, and while it’s not ideal or NFPA rated/compliant, I would bet it could probably douse some brush piles just fine. The only thing I’d really worry about is the tank, because I doubt it’s very good at handling heat. But then again it has several hundred gallons of water to heat sink most of the time.


----------



## Hddnis

We had a multiquip trailer for jobsite watering, it did fine supplying the concrete saw and wetting dust. Pump on it put out about 45psi. at the pump. We ran the line up behind a house and it couldn't keep the hose from kinking and stopping the water. That was ~20 years ago so maybe they put better pumps on them now.

Those clear/white tanks grow algae something awful, a black tank keeps the water clear if it is stored for more than a few days. You can put a tarp over it, that helps to keep the algae from growing.

All our trailers now have baffled tanks, either stainless or black poly, and the pumps are two stage and run a 1.5" line at ~70psi, and at lower flows they run up to 140psi. I'll have to look at who makes the pump, I know the motors are Honda.

I'd certainly take it over no water and pump, but very limited set up.


----------



## TBS

Screenshot from esri of the final resting spot of MMU dozer 4242 off hites cove trail. It will most likely remain there for a long time do to the remote location.


----------



## TBS

Dozer 4242 was operated by Braden varney, may he rest in peace. I hope to hike to the site in the near future.


----------



## HumBurner

Hddnis said:


> Those clear/white tanks grow algae something awful, a black tank keeps the water clear if it is stored for more than a few days. You can put a tarp over it, that helps to keep the algae from growing.




The green tanks allow the growth of algae as well, though not quite as bad as the lighter colored tanks. Even in full-shade 365 days a year.


----------



## HumBurner

madhatte said:


> Well, that and all of the neighborhoods built up in box canyons. They don't cause the fires but they do jack up the cost of both suppression and recovery. Oh and of course the high cost of public opinion and negative press. I think the counties need to bear more responsibility for this one because they're who permits the construction in those locations where the fuels are loaded and the topography favors large fire growth. The rise in temperature is absolutely an issue and will become more of an issue over time, but much more immediately the land use problems need addressed.




Stop building in/beyond the WUI and you eliminate 50% or more of the issue. But anytime someone speaks of limiting human growth/expansion they are immediately jumped upon and treated like a Charlatan.

Or, if you insist upon it, only allow homes that are 99.99% fire hardened.


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## Hddnis

HumBurner said:


> The green tanks allow the growth of algae as well, though not quite as bad as the lighter colored tanks. Even in full-shade 365 days a year.



Good to know about the green tanks.


----------



## atpchas

From a NYT article on the Australian fires:
"Bush fires can be so large and hot that they generate their own dangerous, unpredictable weather systems. These so-called firestorms can produce lightning, strong winds and even fire tornadoes. What they don’t produce is rain.

The volunteer firefighter who died on Monday was crushed after a fire tornado lifted a fire truck off the ground."

Damn!


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## HumBurner

If you haven't seen it, image search "pyroclastic lightning." Both volcanic eruptions and wildfires can produce hail/lightning/flooding conditions. Wildfires can produce tornadoes, but I'm not sure if volcanic eruptions can.


----------



## catbuster

atpchas said:


> From a NYT article on the Australian fires:
> "Bush fires can be so large and hot that they generate their own dangerous, unpredictable weather systems. These so-called firestorms can produce lightning, strong winds and even fire tornadoes. What they don’t produce is rain.
> 
> The volunteer firefighter who died on Monday was crushed after a fire tornado lifted a fire truck off the ground."
> 
> Damn!



There was a similar incident on the Carr fire with F3 tornado strength. The heat-caused updraft broke the inversion layer, and all hell broke loose as the atmosphere destabilized and the wind shear spun the updraft then caused it to move around. It was somewhere around a half mile wide. I don’t remember if there were any deaths directly related to it.

It always sucks to hear about somebody dying, especially when it’s a firefighter, even from another country.


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## TBS

Tetlin ridge fire in Alaska.


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## Drptrch

catbuster said:


> There was a similar incident on the Carr fire with F3 tornado strength. The heat-caused updraft broke the inversion layer, and all hell broke loose as the atmosphere destabilized and the wind shear spun the updraft then caused it to move around. It was somewhere around a half mile wide. I don’t remember if there were any deaths directly related to it.
> 
> It always sucks to hear about somebody dying, especially when it’s a firefighter, even from another country.



I believe 2 directly, Dozer operator (heat) and a Redding Prevention Officer (Blunt Trauma from being launched in his vehicle) and numerous close calls. 
https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2018/carr-fire-tornado/

The Marin engine is from my county 


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## TBS

May the crew of coulson tanker 134 rest in peace.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...n-fighters-dead-australian-fire-tanker-crash/


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## Biigg50

catbuster said:


> There was a similar incident on the Carr fire with F3 tornado strength. The heat-caused updraft broke the inversion layer, and all hell broke loose as the atmosphere destabilized and the wind shear spun the updraft then caused it to move around. It was somewhere around a half mile wide. I don’t remember if there were any deaths directly related to it.
> 
> It always sucks to hear about somebody dying, especially when it’s a firefighter, even from another country.



This was the start of the fire tornado at the CARR Fire. This video was taken from our development just before it jumped the river and killed the 2 fire fighters.




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## Drptrch

Not sure if posted before 

From the Camp fire 



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## Blue Oaks

I finally got my hands on the Brush Rigs I got donated from San Jose Search and Rescue to our Volunteer Fire Association. Fifty cents each.


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## catbuster

Those look like some pretty nice rigs for fifty cents each. Like, way nicer than our ‘83 Chevy K20. 

I can’t tell-are they set up for USAR or wildland? Even if they’re set up for SAR it probably wouldn’t be hard to stick a skid unit in the back and run it as a Type 5 or 6. It would just depend on how heavy the department wanted to make the truck-not so much because of the chassis, they’re F-350s, but more for how they would handle off road.


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## Blue Oaks

They have water tanks and 3 cyl diesel engine driven pumps on the back. Basically a Type 6. I'll take some more pics and post them up.


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## Drptrch

https://yubanet.com/regional/prescribed-fire-to-begin-near-georgetown-today/
Hang on @ P61 western 


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## TBS

Drptrch said:


> https://yubanet.com/regional/prescribed-fire-to-begin-near-georgetown-today/
> Hang on @ P61western
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sierra national Forest has been putting a lot of fire on the ground the last two days, 900 acres on the Barnes north burn South of shaver lake and I think 500 north west of bass lake on the timberloft burn.


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## 2dogs

Cal Fire has completed their annual fire training so next week it is back to work thinning our little forest. At the present time we are one of only three grade projects that the Cal Fire hand crews are permitted to work on during the pandemic. I am the only one to represent the sponsor and social distancing is not a problem. I know the inmates like to work this project and they really enjoy the treats I give them. Wish us good luck.


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## 2dogs

And so it begins. The ranger unit next to ours broke a fire two days ago so the hand crew working our grade project was pulled to go there. Who knows how many time this will happen this year.


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## catbuster

We haven’t been out yet this year, and it doesn’t look like we’ll be going much farther than Daniel Boone NF for an incident if R8 & the state agencies stick with the NWCG guidelines for this season. That would be fine last year or in 2018, where we saw the two consecutive wettest springs on record that set the stage for the rest of the year in 2018 and only contained one 18-day dry spell locally, where nothing burned in 2019, maybe thankfully due to high RH values with normal temperatures that July into August. This year we’re drier and cooler than normal, with a hot & dry summer forecast so it’s probably fair to say we could be looking at a more active season.

I’m not excited about having to go into the woods or the WUI with a small hand crew, a couple one or two man type 6 engines and type 1 engines with crews that don’t do a lot of wildland training. There are less tenders in our area than any other time in the last 50 years. The dozer is going to take longer to get this season as well with our contractor retiring and us now having to wait on the state for heavy equipment.

Should be fun in our area. Southern parts of R8 usually burn in the winter, or our area July-August-September depending on how wet May/June were and what the jet stream wants to do.


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## TBS

We had another one start on the edge of the construction area northwest of the lake last week, they had two last year. We had a cdrc crew working in the park run a voluntary response because it wasn't called in until I called it in. Two d10 dozers from company hooked it just before it crossed a drainage then headed for the next ridge in the picture.


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## catbuster

I bet the local agencies are glad they had a couple big dozers that put line in 17’ wide and operators who weren’t scared of a little fire.


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## TBS

catbuster said:


> I bet the local agencies are glad they had a couple big dozers that put line in 17’ wide and operators who weren’t scared of a little fire.



It looked like they built a freeway around it.


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## Drptrch

*** Sensitive ****

Some Brutal footage of LaFD on explosive commercial structure fire yesterday 
Video and mayday 

Serious injuries, 3 on ventilators 




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## Hddnis

Hell on earth.

Prayers for the firefighters, their families, and their comrades.


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## catbuster

Their bunker gear & helmets.

That’s incredible. I wonder if anyone knew there was that much butane in the building? It just goes to show that we can’t treat every call the same, and just from the look of the surrounding buildings I never would have guessed it had any at all.

Superb ladder company placement, by the way. The cool the command officer kept when he arrived on scene after the mayday is awesome. Lots of people would be freaking out.


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## Blue Oaks

Hole. E. Crap. Some whack job went nuts lighting fires fairly close to me this afternoon. It was about 7 miles from me, and about a half mile from my folks. At least one, and as many as three arsonists started lighting fires in the hills above San Jose. I'm in the local volunteer fire association, but the incident was outside my jurisdiction. I texted my Chief and told him I wanted to test drive the Brush Rig over to a friend's house who has 3 acres backing up to the hill that was ablaze. He gave me the go ahead, so I headed over in the 1988 Ford Brush Rig with a hundred gallon tank and a three cylinder diesel engine mated to the pump. I set up camp at my buddy's house, and laid some hose. Luckily, very luckily the wind was negligible, and heading away from both his place and my folks house. Cal Fire was ALL OVER IT with the heli's and fixed wing aircraft, including the C-130. I had a couple of coldies as we held firm. Since the reports were of the initial whack job WITH A MACHETE and as many as 3 accomplices roaming the hills, I manned the hose while my buddies had their 12 gauges ready. Crazy night. Cal Fire did their standard outstanding job and we had some more beers after rolling up the hoses.









Arson Suspect Arrested In San Jose Wildfires; Evacuees Allowed To Return To Homes


An arson suspect was in custody and evacuated residents allowed to return to their homes Thursday night after a series of small intentionally set fires burned 80 acres of tinder-dry vegetation near a San Jose water treatment plant.




sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com


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## Hddnis

The whack jobs, volunteer and paid, are out in force these days.

Glad it wasn't worse and your buddies house was ok.


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## 2dogs

Blue Oaks said:


> Hole. E. Crap. Some whack job went nuts lighting fires fairly close to me this afternoon. It was about 7 miles from me, and about a half mile from my folks. At least one, and as many as three arsonists started lighting fires in the hills above San Jose. I'm in the local volunteer fire association, but the incident was outside my jurisdiction. I texted my Chief and told him I wanted to test drive the Brush Rig over to a friend's house who has 3 acres backing up to the hill that was ablaze. He gave me the go ahead, so I headed over in the 1988 Ford Brush Rig with a hundred gallon tank and a three cylinder diesel engine mated to the pump. I set up camp at my buddy's house, and laid some hose. Luckily, very luckily the wind was negligible, and heading away from both his place and my folks house. Cal Fire was ALL OVER IT with the heli's and fixed wing aircraft, including the C-130. I had a couple of coldies as we held firm. Since the reports were of the initial whack job WITH A MACHETE and as many as 3 accomplices roaming the hills, I manned the hose while my buddies had their 12 gauges ready. Crazy night. Cal Fire did their standard outstanding job and we had some more beers after rolling up the hoses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arson Suspect Arrested In San Jose Wildfires; Evacuees Allowed To Return To Homes
> 
> 
> An arson suspect was in custody and evacuated residents allowed to return to their homes Thursday night after a series of small intentionally set fires burned 80 acres of tinder-dry vegetation near a San Jose water treatment plant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 833465


Colleen was just teasing you. We all hope there are no copy cats. I lost Cal Fire hand crews two days last week because of fires.


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## Drptrch

San Franciscos night time Pier-45 fire as captured from Marin County’s Mt Tam fire lookout camera. Starts @ the 20sec mark 





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## TBS

I had a 1:30 am wakeup call yesterday by a car battery going BOOM and saw fire. Hustled to the road so I could see what was on fire and it's good thing it woke me up because two other cars went by and didn't call 911.


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## Blue Oaks

Dang. Who's car was it?


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## Blue Oaks

2dogs said:


> Colleen was just teasing you. We all hope there are no copy cats. I lost Cal Fire hand crews two days last week because of fires.



Here we are almost five full days later and they have yet to ID the perp.


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## TBS

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang. Who's car was it?



Local kid heading back home from work. He had just bought it too. It developed a fuel leak about a half mile down the road and caught fire while he was driving. A few neighbors started getting fussy on bookface because their mailboxes got burned, I just said be happy your neighbor heard the explosion and saw the fire and got the fire department rolling before it took off up the slope. Dead grass and heavy brush right against the boxes. 

The kid was trying to get help because he didn't have a phone but nobody answered their doors.


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## Hddnis

People! 

Everybody has a phone and wants to be the one that gets the views because they caught the insane footage.

Nobody seems to care if the situation is better or worse for them being there.


----------



## TBS

Hddnis said:


> People!
> 
> Everybody has a phone and wants to be the one that gets the views because they caught the insane footage.
> 
> Nobody seems to care if the situation is better or worse for them being there.



It was 20 minutes after my 911 call when the volunteer firefighters got there and near an hour for calfire. Me staying on scene was necessary, not many people know that you should call back your 911 dispatch if the fire spreads to wildland and jumps the road or structures start burning. I also stayed because they had to take a report. My property is on the opposite side of the road so I had a definite interest in what could have happened.
Not much one can do when a vehicle is fully engulfed in flames except hurry up and wait for the fire department to get there so why not take some photos while you are there with them and give them some good PR for the locals who didn't know anything about what happened.


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## Hddnis

TheBrushSlasher said:


> It was 20 minutes after my 911 call when the volunteer firefighters got there and near an hour for calfire. Me staying on scene was necessary, not many people know that you should call back your 911 dispatch if the fire spreads to wildland and jumps the road or structures start burning. I also stayed because they had to take a report. My property is on the opposite side of the road so I had a definite interest in what could have happened.
> Not much one can do when a vehicle is fully engulfed in flames except hurry up and wait for the fire department to get there so why not take some photos while you are there with them and give them some good PR for the locals who didn't know anything about what happened.



I wasn't directing that at you, it was a comment on attitudes in general, prompted by your story of the people who wouldn't help and were complaining.


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## 2dogs

We had a little two acre fire burning in heavy brush and timber in a local state park a few days ago. It was so small Cal Fire only used one hand crew and a few engines. The fire was difficult to find so maybe a helicopter was used too, I don't remember. Anyway the fire was really smokey so much so the smoke woke me up at 04. It takes a lot to wake me up when I'm sound asleep. I thought my neighbors were cooking a huge amount of bacon (yuch). Nextdoor.com absolutely blew up, mostly demanding to know when the fire will be out and what can be done about the smoke.

The fire was burning poison oak BTW. Too bad Madhatte wasn't here to go in with the IA engine. He loves poison oak. Especially when it is 8' deep. (For those of us who live in PO country Nate doesn't even know about Black Vine Poison Oak).


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## Blue Oaks

It wouldn't surprise me if the Alma Helitack 106 was sent over. It's just a short flight over the hill from their base by Lexington Reservoir.


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## TBS

Hddnis said:


> I wasn't directing that at you, it was a comment on attitudes in general, prompted by your story of the people who wouldn't help and were complaining.



Sorry I misread your comment, of the people who drove by at one was snapping photos as they slowly rolled by. I still don't understand why people complained so much about a mild inconvenience when it could have been far worse. Boredom and the internet I guess.


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## Hddnis

One time we were trying to rescue a young woman from a submerged car in a flood swollen stream. We had put a line around a big tree and run it across the road and tied it to the rear wheel of the upside down car so hopefully the water wouldn't carry it away.

People wanted to know why they couldn't "just drive over the rope?". 

We got enough units on scene and closed the road at the nearest intersections, but in the meantime I was turning everyone around at the last driveway on the east side of the bridge, homeowner complained that we were using about twenty feet of his 3/4 mile long gravel drive. Pretty sure no one even put tires over the actual edge of the county ROW.

Anyone with two eyes could see we had four deputies in the water around an upside down car. You would think they would say something like "Good luck, we're praying for you all." or "I've got my fingers crossed it works out." or even just the usual "Is everyone gonna be ok?", but no, have to be testy because they don't want to be late for work or whatever.

We got the young woman out ok too.

The local paper gave credit to the city FD, even though they were not even dispatched on the call. No credit to county FD who transported her to the hospital, and no mention of the county deputies that held her head above water, cut the seat belt, pried the door open with batons, and carried her in waist deep flowing flood water to the bank. I hate the lamestream media.


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## Drptrch

Lotta California and Arizona action 


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## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Lotta California and Arizona action
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Kern county has one going now off Bena road near a spot called ilmon on the north side of the railroad tracks, last I heard engines and dozer transports can't get across the tracks so it's a hike in show tonight. 150 acres now.


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## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Kern county has one going now off Bena road near a spot called ilmon on the north side of the railroad tracks, last I heard engines and dozer transports can't get across the tracks so it's a hike in show tonight. 150 acres now.



LNU-Mountain (cause of Sonoma Mtn) about 2 miles from my house 
Started to take off in wind and hit a green drainage 

















CA-LNU-Mountain


Osborne grabbed it as well




forums.wildfireintel.org





Screen shot for me thx to AJohansson on ATAK mapping with Imbedded live fire cams 


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## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Kern county has one going now off Bena road near a spot called ilmon on the north side of the railroad tracks, last I heard engines and dozer transports can't get across the tracks so it's a hike in show tonight. 150 acres now.



Just a couple a little bumps ))


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## Drptrch

Just a bit west if the famed “Tehachapi Loop”













History of The Tehachapi Loop


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehachapi_Loop. The Tehachapi Loop is a 0.73-mile (1.17 km) long "spiral," or helix, on the Union Pacific Railroad line through Tehachapi Pass, of the Tehachapi Mountains in Kern County, south-central California. The line connects Bakersfield and the San Joaquin...



www.theloopnewspaper.com





Mesmerizing drone footage with upbeat riffs 





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## Drptrch

Tahoe and the Eastern Sierra just got lit up with lightning 







ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org










Lightning & Thunderstorms - California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Colorado


Blitzortung.org provides lightning and thunderstorm information in real-time on maps for USA, United Kingdom, Australia, new Zealand, Europa, Africa, Asia and other Countries.




en.blitzortung.org





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## 2dogs

In my neck of the woods (Santa Cruz mountains) the weather is cool, slightly breezy, and foggy in the mornings. Not that far away are red flag conditions. Be aware of the fire hazard and don't be careless. Have fire tools nearby, hopefully with a 5 gallon back pump. We all need fire extinguishers in the truck and mobile equipment AND we all need a plan, including communications, in writing. It is becoming more likely that state and local agencies will sue for suppression costs these days. It doesn't take much of a fire the rack up a half million dollar bill.

If your local authority requires a fire extinguisher with your saw just spend the 20-30 bucks and pack one with you. Put it on a belt with your Israeli bandage and tourniquet. Mine clips to the Dolmar if I don't have to carry it too far.


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## atpchas

2dogs said:


> If your local authority requires a fire extinguisher with your saw just spend the 20-30 bucks and pack one with you


Bill, can you recommend a specific make/model of extinguisher? AFAIK, they're not required but things are already mighty dry at the Preserve.
The good news is that extremely few of the severely burned redwoods you saw in 2017 succumbed to their injuries. Most the ones that died were daughter trees done in by the mother tree stump burning and cooking daughter's roots.


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## 2dogs

Charlie The Home Depot sells a one time use extinguisher that meets the specs for chainsaw usage. I don't like it but it is the only one available (assuming it still is sold). I grew up in the fire extinguisher business working for my dad's company. We sold and serviced high quality fire fighting equipment, not the stuff THD sells today. Because of that I have a dislike for disposable... junk .But like I said it's all we have.

This time of year I carry more fire fighting equipment than chainsaws and falling tools. We have a 500 gallon water buffalo with a new pump on it but that takes time to hook up to and it is of use only if I can drive to the fire. If the Cal Fire engine close to our camp is out of quarters then we will wait quite awhile before the next closest arrives. The five gallon bladder pump always leaks a little, if I don't check it daily I may only have a 3 gallon supply.


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## TBS

Owner of ranch that was thought to be safety zone at Yarnell Hill Fire writes book - Wildfire Today


It is believed by many that the 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots that died in Arizona on the Yarnell Hill Fire in 2013 were hiking to a private ranch near the fire, which was thought to be a bomb-proof safety zone. While still hundreds of yards away, they were overrun by the …...




wildfiretoday.com





A lonely camera in Congress Arizona looking towards Yarnell gives a very dark glimpse of the last moments that 19 men saw on this earth.


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## 2dogs

To the fire guys and everyone else, have a happy and safe Independence Day. I hope you can sleep through the night.


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## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> To the fire guys and everyone else, have a happy and safe Independence Day. I hope you can sleep through the night.



Likewise. So far so good )


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## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Likewise. So far so good )
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you guys avoid using the "q" word?


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## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Do you guys avoid using the "q" word?



Ha ha. Was going gangbusters there for us. 
State brought in IMT and Assigned a Ambulance Strike team and another one allocated if needed on Friday.
So should be be help






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## Blue Oaks

It was a active day in the South Bay yesterday. The Park Fire in Morgan Hill was winding down when the Crews Fire started. Crews is now over 1500 acres near Gilroy. Then yesterday afternoon I was attached to the View Fire, so I fired up the old brush rig and responded. Retardant had already been dropped and a dozen San Jose Fire engines were on scene when I arrived. We ended up helping mop up and cut a fire line. It turned out to be quite the weekend around here.


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## 2dogs

The Ben Lomond Camp is on day 11 of a quarantine lock down. No project work and no fireline work. I spoke with one of the inmates this morning, he said boredom along with losing out on the "big" money is taking its toll on inmates and CalFire employees. BNL crews are probably the closest to the Crews fire.


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## RandyMac

could be an interesting year
more stuff like this


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## grizz55chev

RandyMac said:


> could be an interesting year
> more stuff like this



It’s only July, heaven help us!


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## Drptrch

Shots from one of our guys house in Minden, the Numbers fire 
2nd one this week 
















And same fire from Lake Tahoe






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## Drptrch

Aircraft fire in San Diego harbor right now 







ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org













CA-FED-Pier IC


Not a wildland incident but there is a major fire on board the USS Bonham Richard (aircraft carrier) moored in San Diego. Pulling on crews out and going defensive at this time. Listen to it here: https://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/10294




forums.wildfireintel.org





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## Hddnis

Looks like it was being worked on at the time? 
Couple places said only 160 onboard at the time of the incident and all are accounted for.


----------



## Drptrch

Couple late day NorCal starts






Just north of Yreka, Ca and @Howard57






West of Chester, Ca and East of Susanville,Ca 


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----------



## RandyMac

keep an eye on the Klamath/Siskiyou Mountains tomorrow, t-storms in the forecast, after a week of triple digit temps and humidity % in the low 20s and high teens.
Today in Fort Jones it is a breezy 105F @ 18%.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> keep an eye on the Klamath/Siskiyou Mountains tomorrow, t-storms in the forecast, after a week of triple digit temps and humidity % in the low 20s and high teens.
> Today in Fort Jones it is a breezy 105F @ 18%.



Straight across through the Lassen/Modoc 
Some great footage from today of T-storms moving over a fire and the erratic results 







LMU Hog WX - Google Drive







drive.google.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RandyMac

Numerous small lightning fires on the Klamath NF


----------



## Drptrch

En route




Lassen/Modoc






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blue Oaks

Stay safe out there.


----------



## slowp

Saw a nice mushroom cloud for a bit southeast of here. It has flattened out. It is somewhere on the Colville Reservation. 
Hmmm, looks like the neighbor got their roof repaired.


----------



## slowp

Then there was this one on Saturday. For a while, I thought I might have to detour to get home. I was on my bicycle.


Also on tribal lands and it didn't last long, or smoke us out. At this point, I could see that the fire was across the river so no worries in getting home other than the freshly squished skunk that was just ahead on the road from this stop.


----------



## slowp

Some visitors here this week.





There were five helicopters working the fires here. Two are based here with the state. They also have two of the little pontoon SEATs based here and they were kept busy. The fires are contained as of today, I think. Not sure about the one by Nespelem. Temps have been up in the 100s and I'm glad I don't have to be out there. I am stupid enough to go for bike rides in the heat. That's why the pictures are happening-- Stop to drink water and take a picture.


----------



## grizz55chev

slowp said:


> Some visitors here this week.
> View attachment 845660
> 
> View attachment 845661
> 
> 
> There were five helicopters working the fires here. Two are based here with the state. They also have two of the little pontoon SEATs based here and they were kept busy. The fires are contained as of today, I think. Not sure about the one by Nespelem. Temps have been up in the 100s and I'm glad I don't have to be out there.


August will be interesting! No big fires here in Calif., yet! Still 3 months of fire season to go!!! Praying for a long cool down.


----------



## Blue Oaks

grizz55chev said:


> August will be interesting! No big fires here in Calif., yet! Still 3 months of fire season to go!!! Praying for a long cool down.



Well, except for the 80k+ acre July Complex Fire.









Containment increases on 81,800-acre July Complex fires


Fire crews increased containment Wednesday on the July Complex fires that are burning in and around Lava Beds National Monument.




www.heraldandnews.com


----------



## TBS

Blue Oaks said:


> Well, except for the 80k+ acre July Complex Fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Containment increases on 81,800-acre July Complex fires
> 
> 
> Fire crews increased containment Wednesday on the July Complex fires that are burning in and around Lava Beds National Monument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldandnews.com



And we just finished the mineral fire which burned 30k in Fresno county.


----------



## grizz55chev

Blue Oaks said:


> Well, except for the 80k+ acre July Complex Fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Containment increases on 81,800-acre July Complex fires
> 
> 
> Fire crews increased containment Wednesday on the July Complex fires that are burning in and around Lava Beds National Monument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldandnews.com


 probably the least populated section of Calif., no timber, lots of brush, hadn't heard of it.


----------



## TBS

The Apple fire in riverside county is kicking butt.





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> Well, except for the 80k+ acre July Complex Fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Containment increases on 81,800-acre July Complex fires
> 
> 
> Fire crews increased containment Wednesday on the July Complex fires that are burning in and around Lava Beds National Monument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldandnews.com



Sage, grass and Juniper. Common July event up here 
Area between Perez and Clear Lake known as “Gasoline Alley”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Drptrch

Southern migration happening now before flicking back to NorCal

Mines at 22,000+ (LMU-Gold) and going into rehab tomorrow and I’m done 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TBS

Kern county has a big one going too, stagecoach fire is over 2000 acres now. It was kind of a perfect storm for this one to get going, it started while there was a big gap in air tanker resources with Tankers from Paso Robles, porterville, Hemet Ryan, and Columbia because of a few I.A. fires. We had six tankers and the 747 supertanker on the trimmer fire at pine flat reservoir.

http://www.alertwildfire.org/sierra/index.html?camera=Axis-BreckenridgePeak2&v=81e003f


----------



## TBS

The Trimmer fire decided it's not done yet and jumped the line heading east on sacate ridge.


https://rockyags.cr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/camHist_movie.pl?camera=delilah_1&visible=false&date=20200805&frame=99


----------



## Blue Oaks

Dang.


----------



## slowp

Sounds like all the precautions proclaimed to be taken are not working. Heard from a reliable source that at least two people on an FS crew, that travels, have tested positive. Two others are refusing to get tested. 

The Fire God mentality is still alive and well.


----------



## Blue Oaks

We were out on a small fire last night. The brush rigs work well.


----------



## Drptrch

Worked the Gold fire up in Modoc east of McArthur.
I will say they were pretty dialed and blunt about their expectations during this and that masks were required by all while in camp and briefings
IC stated “if that’s not going to work for you, your demob trailer is right next to the exit.
An individual wandered up to our division briefing unmasked and was instantly and openly chastised, and told you got 5 min to figure it out 
Briefing was done on a dedicated Tac channel for people not in a primary or leader role 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TBS

Drptrch said:


> Worked the Gold fire up in Modoc east of McArthur.
> I will say they were pretty dialed and blunt about their expectations during this and that masks were required by all while in camp and briefings
> IC stated “if that’s not going to work for you, your demob trailer is right next to the exit.
> An individual wandered up to our division briefing unmasked and was instantly and openly chastised, and told you got 5 min to figure it out
> Briefing was done on a dedicated Tac channel for people not in a primary or leader role
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



And that's the way it needs to be, wear your mask or GTFO.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> And that's the way it needs to be, wear your mask or GTFO.



Bout sums it up. The full pronunciation of GTFU was used ))

Leaders intent “ If this feels like last years season, you’re in the WRONG place !!!!!!! “


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hddnis

Masks won't do jack to protect from a virus, but they give the ignorant something to feel important about.


----------



## TBS

Hddnis said:


> Masks won't do jack to protect from a virus, but they give the ignorant something to feel important about.



Maybe not but they will keep individuals on the fire line employed plus it's not a bad thing to filter dirt and other junk being inhaled out on the line.


----------



## Drptrch

And it makes using a Butt-Hut that more pleasurable ))


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TBS

The Lake fire on the Angeles is hauling ass into the desert and heading towards lake Hughes, 10k in less than 4 hours.
http://www.alertwildfire.org/sierra/index.html?camera=Axis-MojaveAdmin1&v=81e004f


----------



## Blue Oaks

That's crazy to be able to consume that much so quickly. There must be some pretty high winds. The big fire in my neighborhood, the Loma Fire took almost a week to consume 4000 acres in 2016.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Lake fire starting.


----------



## TBS

To add to some fire weather insanity here is a screenshot from NWS Reno.


----------



## TBS

To keep with the theme the pyrocb from the lake fire is generating lots of lightning .
It's slightly left of center picture.







__





RAMMB/CIRA SLIDER: Satellite Loop Interactive Data Explorer in Real-time with GOES-16 and Himawari-8 Satellite Imagery






rammb-slider.cira.colostate.edu


----------



## p61 western

Any info on the Loyalton fire would be greatly appreciated. My grandpa lives in Loyalton, but not answering the phone. Not sure if the town itself is affected or not. Thanks in advance guys.


----------



## TBS

p61 western said:


> Any info on the Loyalton fire would be greatly appreciated. My grandpa lives in Loyalton, but not answering the phone. Not sure if the town itself is affected or not. Thanks in advance guys.



No evacuation of loyalton issued and right now the fire is heading northeast away from there. They may not have power in that area right now.


----------



## p61 western

TheBrushSlasher said:


> No evacuation of loyalton issued and right now the fire is heading northeast away from there. They may not have power in that area right now.


 Thank you very much for the information.


----------



## TBS

p61 western said:


> Thank you very much for the information.



Now they are under an evacuation advisory.


----------



## p61 western

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Now they are under an evacuation advisory.


I spoke with my grandpa earlier, and he was gathering important stuff to grab and leave when needed. Pretty crazy fire so far it seems like. It's been a long time since they have had a big fire in the area. The last big one was called the cottonwood fire I believe. Thank you for the heads up again.


----------



## TBS

__





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org





http://www.alertwildfire.org/southeastbay/index.html?v=81e004f


----------



## Blue Oaks

Lots of ash falling at my house in Morgan Hill from the CZU Complex Fire.


----------



## atpchas

Some pictures of the fires burning in Napa and Solano counties:








Photos from the fires burning in Napa County


Associated Press photographer Noah Berger spent Tuesday evening in the hills east of Napa as fire exploded across the region, capturing terrifying pictures of the destruction and the efforts to




napavalleyregister.com


----------



## TBS

atpchas said:


> Some pictures of the fires burning in Napa and Solano counties:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photos from the fires burning in Napa County
> 
> 
> Associated Press photographer Noah Berger spent Tuesday evening in the hills east of Napa as fire exploded across the region, capturing terrifying pictures of the destruction and the efforts to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> napavalleyregister.com



They are talking about the complex fires for LNU and SCU both hitting 700,000 acres before they are contained.


----------



## Blue Oaks

The SCU fire burned 48,000 acres on Saturday alone. Wow.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Our department, Casa Loma Volunteer Fire Association, is going to have rigs stationed around Loma Prieta and Mt Chual tonight. Dry lightning is expected.


----------



## TBS

It will be an interesting night for sure, over here in the central Sierra foothills we just had a little spat of lightning about an hour ago. A part of the pyrocumulonimbus from the castle fire moved west and formed a thunderstorm. 

The castle fire is in the Sequoia national forest and been growing the last few days but decided to go nuts today.


----------



## atpchas

Burn scars in CA




__





August Fires Leave Vast Burn Scars in California


The LNU and SCU Lightning Complex fires—the second and third largest fires in state history—have burned more than 700,000 acres of land.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Blue Oaks

atpchas said:


> Burn scars in CA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> August Fires Leave Vast Burn Scars in California
> 
> 
> The LNU and SCU Lightning Complex fires—the second and third largest fires in state history—have burned more than 700,000 acres of land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earthobservatory.nasa.gov



I would have never believed I would see a fire burn the bulk of the land between San Jose and I5, between HWY's 580 and 152. Unreal.


----------



## TBS

We've got a new fire near the town of big creek in the creek near camp Sierra. It started at 7pm and was holding at 1 acre with a retardant drop and helo bucket work but access was very different. As firefighters got to the fire on foot they had to turn and run back. Camp Sierra evacuated.

These photos were taken an hour ago by me.


----------



## TBS

http://www.alertwildfire.org/sierra/index.html?camera=Axis-MeadowLakes&v=81e004f


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We've got a new fire near the town of big creek in the creek near camp Sierra. It started at 7pm and was holding at 1 acre with a retardant drop and helo bucket work but access was very different. As firefighters got to the fire on foot they had to turn and run back. Camp Sierra evacuated.
> 
> These photos were taken an hour ago by me.
> View attachment 853042
> 
> View attachment 853043



SNAFU!!
This is set to be the largest fire the San Joaquin river basin has ever seen well past 2000 acres and reported by boots on the ground spotting 6 plus miles northwest across the river 3-4 miles away!!

My view now.


----------



## Hddnis

Damn!


----------



## 2dogs

It has been a rough few weeks here in Santa Cruz and Santa Clara counties. You probably know the big picture, dry lightning and strong winds descended on us August 16th. The CZU (Santa Cruz/San Mateo) complex is over 86,000 acres, roughly 20% of our county. The SCU (Santa Clara, etc) is over 396,000 acres.

The real damage was done in the north of Santa Cruz county, the north coast, Bonny Doon, China Grade Rd, around Hwy 236, and other locations. Over 900 residences were lost! NINE HUNDRED! Several of my friends lost everything. I've spoken of my friend Andy here before, there is nothing left of his house. He managed to get both of his trucks out along with most of his work saws and the power head for the Lucas mill. He lost all the framing and rails. His favorite Stihl 064 and an 090 were in the garage when he left. Paul who I have worked with many times (and Nef, another friend) rented on the north coast. They got their dogs and surfboards out. Period. Forest who was born in Last Chance and lived there lost his home. Tad lost his life.

Over the last few years it has been very difficult for the residents to get fire insurance, I don't know how many properties were uninsured. Good luck getting insurance in the future. 900!

Cody and I along with a water tender helped our friend in Bonny Doon save his and his sister's house August 22nd. We were both in greens and yellows so Cal Fire left us alone but they kicked the water tender (who lived just down the road) off the fire. The Strike Team Leader, Type 3, came down to where we were working and said there is ONE type 3 for this road, no water tenders, one dozer down the hill somewhere, no air, you are on your own. Play it safe and leave if you feel threatened. We were in the middle of 200 acres of burning poison oak, why would we feel threatened?

The camp where I have been working these last couple years (on Hwy 9) was sorta threatened but for safety sake Hwy 9 was closed. I had a tracked skid steer I could not get to until last week. The rental company (A Tool Shed) is great to work with so that entire time cost $3k which they will write of as an in kind donation. However our contractor had a rental D4 there also at $3K per DAY! They have already said NO! to any deal. The price will be $75K!

Today September 5 is a hot one. CZU is around 60% contained but several spot fires inside and outside the containment line have popped up. I have worked quite a few disasters here starting in 1974. People can hold their tempers about or sometimes 3 weeks. Now people are angry! There are hundreds of people threatening to sue Cal Fire for various reasons, mostly due to the lack of air craft. A heavy marine layer kept the smoke in and the aircraft on the ground. Many suggestions have been made online on how to proceed in the future from IFR to radar to creating special aircraft that will drop moist topsoil (with redwood seeds in it) to create a berm around the entire fire. Really.

I only have a few pics but I will post the later.


----------



## Hddnis

I know it don't help a lick, but I really feel for you guys down there. 
That is nuts that they won't budge on the price of the cat, around here rentals have a weekly and monthly rate and it is usually a pretty good deal. $3k is really high for weekly rate on a D4


----------



## TBS

Creek fire again.


This was the point where things got scary for 500 people camping at mammoth pool reservoir because they had to shelter in place until things calmed enough for national guard chinooks to come in and rescue 60 people who got injured.


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Creek fire again.
> View attachment 853263
> 
> This was the point where things got scary for 500 people camping at mammoth pool reservoir because they had to shelter in place until things calmed enough for national guard chinooks to come in and rescue 60 people who got injured.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## TBS

Creek fire is 76,000 acres and an unknown number of structures burned.

It's right in my back yard now.




__





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## Blue Oaks

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Creek fire is 76,000 acres and an unknown number of structures burned.
> 
> It's right in my back yard now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALERT Wildfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alertwildfire.org



Dang. I hope it skirts your house, and doesn't burn it down.


----------



## slowp

Took this from up the street a bit. I saw it smoldering earlier. I'm thinking it erupted after smoldering for weeks. That earlier fire got into an old spot where the old mill used to dump sawdust. You'd see a bit of smoke off and on all summer. This morning, what with 50mph gusts of wind, this is what has happened.



It blocks the view of the column from the Cold Springs Fire, which started not too far away, has burned south and has jumped the Columbia River.

We're OK as long as no fires break out upwind. I did fill up the gas tank this morning and have the trailer semi-ready, but we are buffered by orchards and irrigated land. Most of the houses on my street, including mine, have metal roofs. Winds are supposed to die down tonight.


----------



## Blue Oaks

slowp said:


> Took this from up the street a bit. I saw it smoldering earlier. I'm thinking it erupted after smoldering for weeks. That earlier fire got into an old spot where the old mill used to dump sawdust. You'd see a bit of smoke off and on all summer. This morning, what with 50mph gusts of wind, this is what has happened.
> View attachment 853578
> View attachment 853578
> 
> It blocks the view of the column from the Cold Springs Fire, which started not too far away, has burned south and has jumped the Columbia River.
> 
> We're OK as long as no fires break out upwind. I did fill up the gas tank this morning and have the trailer semi-ready, but we are buffered by orchards and irrigated land. Most of the houses on my street, including mine, have metal roofs. Winds are supposed to die down tonight.



Well, here's to hoping your house doesn't burn down either.


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## 2dogs

ALL HAIL Ashli!


----------



## RandyMac

Look at that tendril extending from the Red Salmon.


----------



## TBS

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang. I hope it skirts your house, and doesn't burn it down.



The dozers punched line about a line in to the east and running north down into the river canyon. Right now they are using all five ponds in our area for helicopter dip sites and tankers painting that dozer line.


----------



## Blue Oaks

TheBrushSlasher said:


> The dozers punched line about a line in to the east and running north down into the river canyon. Right now they are using all five ponds in our area for helicopter dip sites and tankers painting that dozer line.



Awesome! Having helicopters there GREATLY increases your odds of not having to look for a new house.


----------



## TBS

This is our family cabin that my grandpa built in 1955, lots of memories up there. From what I hear there's firefighters setting up structure protection there. Luckily they've had time to get in.


----------



## atpchas

More satellite views of CA fires.





California Continues to Burn


By early September 2020, more than a quarter million acres had burned within the August Complex fire in Mendocino National Forest.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov









Smoke Blows Over the Pacific


Winds carried smoke from California wildfires westward over the Pacific Ocean.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> SNAFU!!
> This is set to be the largest fire the San Joaquin river basin has ever seen well past 2000 acres and reported by boots on the ground spotting 6 plus miles northwest across the river 3-4 miles away!!
> 
> My view now.
> View attachment 853130



135,523 acres and growing.


----------



## sbhooper

The whole west is a **** show. My kid just got pulled from Kalifornia, to go back to Idaho, because there are no resources. He is headed to Cambridge, Idaho. Oregon, Kalifornia and Washington are all on fire. At least one small town in eastern Washington, has been 80 percent burned down. 
If you are going to live in the forest, CUT A DAMNED FIRE BREAK!


----------



## Tin-knocker

2dogs said:


> It has been a rough few weeks here in Santa Cruz and Santa Clara counties. You probably know the big picture, dry lightning and strong winds descended on us August 16th. The CZU (Santa Cruz/San Mateo) complex is over 86,000 acres, roughly 20% of our county. The SCU (Santa Clara, etc) is over 396,000 acres.
> 
> The real damage was done in the north of Santa Cruz county, the north coast, Bonny Doon, China Grade Rd, around Hwy 236, and other locations. Over 900 residences were lost! NINE HUNDRED! Several of my friends lost everything. I've spoken of my friend Andy here before, there is nothing left of his house. He managed to get both of his trucks out along with most of his work saws and the power head for the Lucas mill. He lost all the framing and rails. His favorite Stihl 064 and an 090 were in the garage when he left. Paul who I have worked with many times (and Nef, another friend) rented on the north coast. They got their dogs and surfboards out. Period. Forest who was born in Last Chance and lived there lost his home. Tad lost his life.
> 
> Over the last few years it has been very difficult for the residents to get fire insurance, I don't know how many properties were uninsured. Good luck getting insurance in the future. 900!
> 
> Cody and I along with a water tender helped our friend in Bonny Doon save his and his sister's house August 22nd. We were both in greens and yellows so Cal Fire left us alone but they kicked the water tender (who lived just down the road) off the fire. The Strike Team Leader, Type 3, came down to where we were working and said there is ONE type 3 for this road, no water tenders, one dozer down the hill somewhere, no air, you are on your own. Play it safe and leave if you feel threatened. We were in the middle of 200 acres of burning poison oak, why would we feel threatened?
> 
> The camp where I have been working these last couple years (on Hwy 9) was sorta threatened but for safety sake Hwy 9 was closed. I had a tracked skid steer I could not get to until last week. The rental company (A Tool Shed) is great to work with so that entire time cost $3k which they will write of as an in kind donation. However our contractor had a rental D4 there also at $3K per DAY! They have already said NO! to any deal. The price will be $75K!
> 
> Today September 5 is a hot one. CZU is around 60% contained but several spot fires inside and outside the containment line have popped up. I have worked quite a few disasters here starting in 1974. People can hold their tempers about or sometimes 3 weeks. Now people are angry! There are hundreds of people threatening to sue Cal Fire for various reasons, mostly due to the lack of air craft. A heavy marine layer kept the smoke in and the aircraft on the ground. Many suggestions have been made online on how to proceed in the future from IFR to radar to creating special aircraft that will drop moist topsoil (with redwood seeds in it) to create a berm around the entire fire. Really.
> 
> I only have a few pics but I will post the later.


Paul and Nef are my neighbors. They were staying with me and my father in law helping to restore infrastructure. They both have gofundme set up. I posted a thread stating Paul’s. I can post them here if nobody minds. I’ve noticed (at least around me) the only people whose houses are still standing are the ones who stayed to defend them. Not encouraging people to do this at all. Just stating facts that I’ve seen. I have plenty of pictures as well if anyone is interested. It was really quite an experience to go through and I feel lucky for what I have but I feel for the people who lost their homes. It really is a tragedy


----------



## atpchas

Small wonder the air has been absolutely crappy recently. Don't know how folks can work the lines with temps over 100° and air so thick with smoke.





A Smoky Inferno


Intense fires raged in several western states over the Labor Day weekend.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## 2dogs

Tin-knocker said:


> Paul and Nef are my neighbors. They were staying with me and my father in law helping to restore infrastructure. They both have gofundme set up. I posted a thread stating Paul’s. I can post them here if nobody minds. I’ve noticed (at least around me) the only people whose houses are still standing are the ones who stayed to defend them. Not encouraging people to do this at all. Just stating facts that I’ve seen. I have plenty of pictures as well if anyone is interested. It was really quite an experience to go through and I feel lucky for what I have but I feel for the people who lost their homes. It really is a tragedy


Yes please post pics.
Today I was working with a friend from Boulder Creek. A month ago there were 600 residences on their water system. Today there are only 30. Fortunately his house did not burn.

Thanks, Bill


----------



## grizz55chev

sbhooper said:


> The whole west is a **** show. My kid just got pulled from Kalifornia, to go back to Idaho, because there are no resources. He is headed to Cambridge, Idaho. Oregon, Kalifornia and Washington are all on fire. At least one small town in eastern Washington, has been 80 percent burned down.
> If you are going to live in the forest, CUT A DAMNED FIRE BREAK!


100' fire break wont help much with the winds and dry conditions we have right now, wind gusts from the north are the worst possible combination coupled with high temps and low humidity. this isn't a rake the forest type of event.


----------



## Hddnis

Oregon has their hands full right now. Some pretty major evacuations in Marion county.
Looks like high winds and low humidity are making things interesting.


----------



## Hddnis

Mill City is reported to have burned, video on youtube, certainly lots of the town burned.
Detroit is reported to have burned, I can't find video or pictures of that.
Reports of casualties because people were trapped by downed trees and couldn't drive out in time.

I used to work in the whole Santiam Canyon area, it is very heavy fuel, tall trees, thick brush, small narrow roads. All the side roads off the highway are steep and winding.

I have friends and family out working in this. Say a prayer for everyone there, they're gonna need it.


----------



## Hddnis




----------



## Hddnis

Detroit Dam

Sorry, don't know when this was taken.


----------



## northmanlogging

bonney lake/ sumner wa on fire this would be the suburbs south of Seattle, but west side Washington, lots of evacuations lots of structure fire. 

went from mild fire danger around here to extreme in just a couple days... couple that with all the idiots still lighting "recreational fires" we in for some **** around here.


----------



## Drptrch

Zoom Earth | LIVE weather map, storm tracker, rain radar


Track hurricanes, tropical storms and severe weather with LIVE satellite images, rain radar, wind speed forecast maps and more.




zoom.earth






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tin-knocker

2dogs said:


> Yes please post pics.
> Today I was working with a friend from Boulder Creek. A month ago there were 600 residences on their water system. Today there are only 30. Fortunately his house did not burn.
> 
> Thanks, Bill


I didn’t take as many pictures as I should’ve but in my defense I was kinda busy. The last pic is my house. Still standing. Thank god. Worked our asses off to keep it that way.


----------



## Tin-knocker

If anyone has time I would really appreciate if you passed this along. My two neighbors lost their houses and could use a hand getting back on their feet. 








Swanton Fire Relief For Paul Badger, organized by Neftali Espino


By now you all know that a lot of people lost their homes and all their belongings … Neftali Espino needs your support for Swanton Fire Relief For Paul Badger



www.gofundme.com












Nef Espino and Homegrown Surfboards CA fires fund, organized by Tyler Risom


This weeks fires near Santa Cruz, CA devastated the Davenport community… Tyler Risom needs your support for Nef Espino and Homegrown Surfboards CA fires fund



www.gofundme.com


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## Hddnis

Heard from one friend in Oregon and his house was the only one left standing on his street in Detroit.

Another friend wasn't so lucky, we know his house and shop are gone, but so far no one has heard from him. I'm not too worried yet. He is most likely really busy helping out other people, that is just who he is.

Some other friends lost their cabin on the N. Fork, according to a neighbor, they have not been out to confirm yet, but that whole canyon burned really hot.


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## bfrazier

sbhooper said:


> The whole west is a **** show. My kid just got pulled from Kalifornia, to go back to Idaho, because there are no resources. He is headed to Cambridge, Idaho. Oregon, Kalifornia and Washington are all on fire. At least one small town in eastern Washington, has been 80 percent burned down.
> If you are going to live in the forest, CUT A DAMNED FIRE BREAK!


Firebreak, Orygun style:


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## northmanlogging

doo doo doo lookin out my front door

5 pm, should be blinding and bright

note: no filters used, nearest fire is 40+ miles away


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## Hddnis

Air smells like smouldering campfires, burned houses, and burned animals.


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## slowp

The fried internet cables and tower have been repaired. Now we need to get everyone to turn on their leaf blowers in unison and blow out the smoke. 
The air quality in my area today. 


I'm thinking it may be just a smidgeon better than it was yesterday, but not much. Cough cough. At least I'm not horking up the black stuff.

Bill, I've read where homes are saved when people stay behind. Apparently if you can douse the embers and keep an eye on the hidey holes houses have, you might be able to save your house. The other day, when our fire jumped the river, I was kind of starting the gathering up to evacuate process. I was having a debate about staying or going in my head. Fortunately, the little SEAT planes and engine crews controlled the spot fire.

Nebraska person: Most of the west sides of Oregon and Washington are or have been forest land. When the wind is howling and fire is running, you can't have a big enough fire line. In my part of the PNW, the fire was a brush fire. We had 50mph gusts. The fire jumped a really big fireline called the Columbia River. All you can do when the wind is blowing is get out of the way of the fire--run away. Now, imagine a 160 foot tall tree with the crown on fire (torching) in the same wind. A firebreak isn't going to stop it. You get out of the way, then return afterwards to mop up.

The western valleys of Oregon and Washington don't burn frequently--maybe 300 years or so. The catastrophic blazes occur when the east winds blow down through the valleys. That's a nervous time to be living there. That's also what caused the areas to be covered in Douglas-fir. It likes to start in openings and is an early seral species. You might say that much of the West Side is a fire dependent ecosystem--with a reduced frequency of fire than dryer areas. 

Trivia: I was reading an account from the 1860s about a coastal tribe lighting a fire to burn out an enemy tribe but the fire got bigger than planned and took off. 

Anyway, hope everybody stays safe and healthy out there.


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## slowp

atpchas said:


> Small wonder the air has been absolutely crappy recently. Don't know how folks can work the lines with temps over 100° and air so thick with smoke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Smoky Inferno
> 
> 
> Intense fires raged in several western states over the Labor Day weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earthobservatory.nasa.gov


You can when you are young..... and stupid.  It's all about making that hazard pay and overtime! 

Take care.


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## catbuster

atpchas said:


> Small wonder the air has been absolutely crappy recently. Don't know how folks can work the lines with temps over 100° and air so thick with smoke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Smoky Inferno
> 
> 
> Intense fires raged in several western states over the Labor Day weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earthobservatory.nasa.gov



Hand crews have it hard... But it’s not all that hard in this:


Downshot is that I can’t get a lot of places they can, wherever I go I **** things up pretty bad. That machine is pretty small in comparison to a lot of the west coast Cats where the “big” 6 (H,R,T series), 7 & 8s are common.

I commend everyone, especially the hand and engine crews working out west this year. I’ve not worked out west since 2018, which was the worst season on record for California at the time. This year has been worse _and _Oregon & Washington are burning.

Stay safe & best of luck,

R8 contract HEQB.


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## slowp

bfrazier said:


> Firebreak, Orygun style:
> View attachment 854321


Not really. Not unless the slash has been burned. Was on a fire years ago out of Enumclaw, WA. That fire would take off in the recent clearcuts and the little seedlings fried. Weyco, I think, yarded out the bigger slash but left the limbs that could be planted through in the unit. After the fire went through, the ground was black with little black sticks (seedlings) sticking up throughout. When that fire burned into the blocks of federal land, which had not been cut, it died down a bit. Just a bit. Then it would spot into another Weyco unit and take off. 

A yarder covered in retardent is a sad sight to see, but better than a burned up one. 

That's my take from that particular fire. I was an engine slug and we worked with a team of fallers. They cut and we drowned the flames that shot out of their stumps.


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## bfrazier

Oddly enough our high temperatures in Cottage Grove Oregon have been 64, with lows in the 40's! Weatherman say's "It's going to be 85, and NOPE. Even a little cooler than that up where I am, with air quality as poor as 800+. I guess this is what a nuclear winter, or a volcano would do.

The sky remains a deep orange, and it is as still out as I can ever recall, morning, noon and night, with just a fine drizzle of ash now for the last few days. The sun can't get to the ground - it's pretty weird, something we've never seen here before anyways. Good firefighting weather, if you can chew your way through the air.

H pay? Yeah, just for taking a breath! _Can 2020 get any more F'ed up?_


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## Hddnis

My two year old son pointed up at the sky towards the sun, which shown as a big red orb through the smoke, and said "Is that the moon or the sun, daddy?"

I said "That's the sun."

He said "Not the moon?"

I said "Not the moon, the sun."

He said "Oh, well, the sun is trying to moon me."


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## 2dogs

Patty you are correct, several people stayed and fought the fire and saved their home. While the big news should be that we lost over 950 single family residences more coverage is given to the few people who refused to evacuate. It is still early but I expect to read how the fire agencies are to blame (along with Law) for the damage. There are MANY residents who claim to be joining the already present law suits. Lawyers and insurance adjusters are advertising locally. Many residents who lost their homes express no gratitude put forth to try and save their home but scream into the news cameras that they "will never evacuate again". I see this as suicide. We have tall trees.

Cal Fire is accused of trying to cover up their "anemic" response of the first 24 hours. (Of course there are claims that the government is using directed energy weapons to start all these fires. After all this is California).

Incidentally residents are not allowed to haul fire debris to the dump without the proper paper work. An inspection by "state and local" agencies must be performed to search for hazardous materials (no warrant needed). The County will not consider any building permit applications without this paper work, nor will financial aid requests etc be processed. 

My friend lived in a HOA that is also their own private water system. Before the fire there were 600 taps. There are only 30 left! His house survived.


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## Hddnis

Stand and fight the fires is a great idea if you have a comprehensive plan ahead of time. Death wish otherwise. 

A garden hose on a well run by electricity is not a plan.

Cleared and maintained defensible space is a must. Large supply of water and at least two pumps, got to have a back up. 

Simple truth is there are very few fire fighters and fires are big. If a person prepares they can save what they have. Relying on government gets less attractive every year. 

It is impossible to get insurance in many places and that list just got a lot bigger, you can't tell yourself "Well, it's insured, I can build new."


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## 2dogs

To follow up on my post from a few days ago residents are not allowed to disturb what is left of their home. The County is requiring a hazardous material inspection of every property. They say that federal, state, and local inspectors will be available at no charge but I cant tell if each agency must inspect or any agency may inspect. I don't know how a little fire district can be considered an expert in the field of hazardous building materials. Any home that burned but was painted in years past with lead paint is considered a hazmat incident. ALL the debris from that house will have to be sent to a hazardous waste facility. I don't know how much that will cost but I imagine quite a bit. 

While residents are not allowed to disturb the ashes of any structure there are businesses selling and non-profits giving out sifters so people can search for items that may have survived the fire. More than 950 single family dwelling burned and about 500 other buildings burned as well.

Quite a bit of media and social media is give to the upcoming winter and the danger of debris flows. This is a good thing.


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## 2dogs

I read this morning that the permit price here is $75,000-$100,00! Just for paperwork!


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## Hddnis

When my wife's family was rebuilding after the Tubbs fire they ran into that. Their insurance paid for everything, but it seemed insane to me to pay that much to get permission to rebuild a house using the exact same floor plan. They had to evacuate again this year, for a couple days it looked like they might lose their brand new home. I heard they can't get insurance that covers wildfires this time. 

California, as a state, is self-destrucing. Really sad to watch. I'd live down there if it wasn't so crazy, love the countryside in N. Cal. People aren't too bad either outside the cities.


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## 2dogs

Hddnis in case you are unaware the Latin translation of California is spend-tax-regulate.


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## Hddnis

2dogs said:


> Hddnis in case you are unaware the Latin translation of California is spend-tax-regulate.



Ain't that the truth.

Everywhere else is trying to copy them like it's a good idea or something.

Freaking Gov. Small here in Idaho thinks he's some bigshot dictator. Oh, well, we ignore him and carry on.


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## TBS

Got back to our place today, made a special trip to clean out the fridge which luckily wasn't horrible . It was pretty surreal standing in an area that looked like nothing happened for 33 years but knowing just past the ridge line most every home is gone.


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## slowp

There was a big lawsuit against the Dept. of Natural Resources here in Warshington after the Carlton Complex Fire. Folks were claiming that the DNR did not do their job and that firefighters just watched houses burn. Bear in mind that like this year, there were 50mph winds blowing that fire and nothing was going to stop it until those died down. They lost their lawsuit. 

Don't know how this year's fire victims feel. This fire burned through the poorer section of the county. 

It rained almost all day yesterday, and into the night. We badly needed that.

There was an article in the paper this morning that the state was waiving requirements such as asbestos inspections for residents of Malden. That's a small community that burned down. Instead, they gave volunteers that were clearing the debris where an old Masonic Temple had stood a lecture on how to work in a safer manner with suspected asbestos contaminated wreckage. They also waived inspection and permit fees. Apparently not everyone is copying CA.


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## TBS

slowp said:


> There was a big lawsuit against the Dept. of Natural Resources here in Warshington after the Carlton Complex Fire. Folks were claiming that the DNR did not do their job and that firefighters just watched houses burn. Bear in mind that like this year, there were 50mph winds blowing that fire and nothing was going to stop it until those died down. They lost their lawsuit.
> 
> Don't know how this year's fire victims feel. This fire burned through the poorer section of the county.
> 
> It rained almost all day yesterday, and into the night. We badly needed that.
> 
> There was an article in the paper this morning that the state was waiving requirements such as asbestos inspections for residents of Malden. That's a small community that burned down. Instead, they gave volunteers that were clearing the debris where an old Masonic Temple had stood a lecture on how to work in a safer manner with suspected asbestos contaminated wreckage. They also waived inspection and permit fees. Apparently not everyone is copying CA.



I smell a lawsuit coming down here because some people here are getting real petty about fire crews not staying to defend their homes with NO FIRE CLEARANCE! One guy ever going so far as to ***** about a falling crew who put a knick in the retaining wall of his burned house as they were removing logs.


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## RandyMac

the forecast for north/central and southern CA doesn't look good, dry, windy and hot.


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## sbhooper

It amazes me to see all of the burned houses that have/had trees right up to the side of the house/property. How stupid! All of those small towns should have a huge fire break cut around the entire town. Stupid games-stupid prizes. State regulations have caused a lot of it, too.


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## Stephen Meister

It’s a shame what you guys are dealing with. Prayers sent.


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## TBS

sbhooper said:


> It amazes me to see all of the burned houses that have/had trees right up to the side of the house/property. How stupid! All of those small towns should have a huge fire break cut around the entire town. Stupid games-stupid prizes. State regulations have caused a lot of it, too.



We've got laws that say we have to maintain a at least 30ft perimeter around a structure and 100ft around homes but enforcement is non-existent outside of a sternly worded letter, much of what I've seen comes down to one neighbor doing it as best they while right nextdoor they want to keep the pretty ferns and manzanita. One house that barely survived down the road from us was only because of the material used (metal,comp, and pavement) it was up against the overgrown forest boundary .


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## Stephen Meister

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We've got laws that say we have to maintain a at least 30ft perimeter around a structure and 100ft around homes but enforcement is non-existent outside of a sternly worded letter, much of what I've seen comes down to one neighbor doing it as best they while right nextdoor they want to keep the pretty ferns and manzanita. One house that barely survived down the road from us was only because of the material used (metal,comp, and pavement) it was up against the overgrown forest boundary .


Who makes these laws?


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## blades

Idiot politicians at local , state, and federal levels as well as upper level Department of Natural Resources management and Federal Forestry department. Then you have the various environmental groups. They are for the most part 2 legged Lemmings.


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## Stephen Meister

blades said:


> Idiot politicians at local , state, and federal levels as well as upper level Department of Natural Resources management and Federal Forestry department. Then you have the various environmental groups. They are for the most part 2 legged Lemmings.


Are you still doing forest management or has that been axed by regulators?


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## TBS

Stephen Meister said:


> Who makes these laws?



Office of the state fire marshal in california made the wildland urban interface code for 100 foot defensible space...One of the few california policies that uses common sense. Like blades said the fed higher ups and environmental groups make the dumbass policies that don't allow for federal lands to be maintained properly, these are also the people who still think paying their firefighters 15 bucks an hour after 3 seasons is ok and still refuse to title them as firefighters unless the forest service has to buy them a coffin.


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## slowp

sbhooper said:


> It amazes me to see all of the burned houses that have/had trees right up to the side of the house/property. How stupid! All of those small towns should have a huge fire break cut around the entire town. Stupid games-stupid prizes. State regulations have caused a lot of it, too.


Guess you need to actually be on the ground and see a fire like burned here go. You could have a "huge" fire break around town and it would still burn it. We had *50mph winds! *Those were pushing the fire and nothing was stopping it--not roads, not even the Columbia River!!! The latter would surely qualify as a "huge" firebreak. And, that fire was not in tall timber. It was in sagebrush and grass for the most part. It burned the stubble in wheat fields. Can you define a huge firebreak? I've seen fire with less wind behind it easily jump a 4 cat blade wide line. That was in Lodgepole Pine. Now, imagine what a wind driven crown fire in a west side forest would do. Doug fir is a heck of a lot taller than Lodgepole. 

The fires burning in Western Oregon were unstoppable what with the weather conditions. They also had strong winds and the wind was from the east. If you read up on Western WA and OR forests, you will find out that a stand replacing fire occurs around every 200 or 300 years. That's why Douglas fir was so abundant when settlers arrived. A west side fire is bad enough, but a wind pushed fire like happened there would be terrifying, and unstoppable until the wind died down. 

People don't all live in town. Many live on acreage all over the valleys. Your fire break solution does not fit the situation. Another thing, large fires are not common in the temperate rain forest. We have called them asbestos forests in the past. While fires in parts of CA and east of the Cascades have historically burned every ten to twenty years, the west side is a whole different story. I've already mentioned the historical frequency for that side. 

You are armchair quarterbacking. There is no easy solution. The old worn out saying works here--it was a perfect storm.


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## Hddnis

Fire breaks can and do make a huge difference even in a high wind event, as in a large fire break around each structure.

If a building is resistant to blown embers, and has little or no fuel around it, it is going to survive all on it's own. In such a case you are not stopping a fire, you are reducing the intensity of the fire around what you want to protect.

One of my friends had a home survive the Beachie Creek fire. He only had some very small trees in the yard, a good distance from the house. All the big trees he had cut down years ago. He kept the lawn watered, but not lush green like magazine cover. Nearest big trees were over 150' away, they all burned, raging crown fire that left black sticks over a 100' tall.

Back in 2015 we had a fire started by a downed line and driven by 40mph winds, it was burning across wheat fields that has been disked! There was a wall of flame burning stubble that would not have burned in a mild breeze. The fire got into some homes east of town, only lost a few sheds. Lots of people had wood stacked against the garage and some of those stacks caught fire. FD responded with seven engines, mutual aid brought six more, and locals responded with about another fifty engines of the makeshift pumps water variety. On top of that dozens responded with just a rake or shovel and attacked spot fires in yards and along the roads. It was all over in two hours.

If it had started a little farther west, and gotten into town proper, with all the overgrown yards, stacks of wood against buildings, taller trees, houses with shakes and cedar siding, etc., it would have been a big firestorm and probably would have burned right through town.


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## catbuster

Patty’s right about the fires on the west side of the Cascades in Oregon & Washington. There’s not a damn thing that will stop a crown fire in that forest when dry. It’s dry now, and the weather is extreme. SoCal is usually underbrush, meh. Nothing real big. Cut dozer line and let it burn itself out. LA/Ventura Counties have it down to a science. NorCal & into the Sierras are bigger fires but still not much compared the potential I was always terrified of when I was working around Astoria & associated areas.

The trees are big, the brush can be dense and cutting a 50 foot dozer line won’t work with a 300 foot flame length and intense radiant heat. That’s assuming you can get a dozer big enough to work some of the big, snotty stuff out of the way, and in plenty of places it’s too steep or there’s no access. So you’re into hand crews, and while those boys & girls work hard, it’s just not practical to try to get in there and construct hand line that anything wind-driven in that type of fuel won’t even notice. For those of you who haven’t seen a crown fire, and I hope you don’t have to, it’s an experience that is astonishing, humbling, somehow spiritual and terrifying all at once. It’s a moment in time that I think most of us who have seen one recognize that there are some things we simply can’t control.

I guess I’ll concede that if the brush is dry and the trees aren’t cooking off fire breaks work okay. But the fire behavior of recent weeks is not that.


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## northmanlogging

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We've got laws that say we have to maintain a at least 30ft perimeter around a structure and 100ft around homes but enforcement is non-existent outside of a sternly worded letter, much of what I've seen comes down to one neighbor doing it as best they while right nextdoor they want to keep the pretty ferns and manzanita. One house that barely survived down the road from us was only because of the material used (metal,comp, and pavement) it was up against the overgrown forest boundary .


Theres a mentality here of its a rain forest, rain forests don't burn...
So folks build real cozy like to very tall timber, and very thick underbrush. 

Every now and again a fire gets close to civilization on the west side, and things get interesting quickly, take the Sumner Grade fire last month, Too steep for dozers, I'm not even sure King county has hand crews, if they do they were busy trying to put out the east side, so all they had was a few engines and one lone helicopter on the first day or 2 of the fire. 

There is often fires up in the wilderness areas here too, Snohomish county (home for me) is the size of Deleware, but most of it is mountains and wilderness, so when a fire gets going in the back country, there literally is nothing anyone can do besides keep an eye on it and let it burn out.. hopefully...


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## slowp

When I first moved over to the wet side, clearing was done around houses not for fire protection but to get rid of trees that might blow over onto a house or to let sun onto the house so the moss wouldn't cover the whole roof. Flooding was a bigger threat than fires.


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## sbhooper

slowp said:


> Guess you need to actually be on the ground and see a fire like burned here go. You could have a "huge" fire break around town and it would still burn it. We had *50mph winds! *Those were pushing the fire and nothing was stopping it--not roads, not even the Columbia River!!! The latter would surely qualify as a "huge" firebreak. And, that fire was not in tall timber. It was in sagebrush and grass for the most part. It burned the stubble in wheat fields. Can you define a huge firebreak? I've seen fire with less wind behind it easily jump a 4 cat blade wide line. That was in Lodgepole Pine. Now, imagine what a wind driven crown fire in a west side forest would do. Doug fir is a heck of a lot taller than Lodgepole.
> 
> The fires burning in Western Oregon were unstoppable what with the weather conditions. They also had strong winds and the wind was from the east. If you read up on Western WA and OR forests, you will find out that a stand replacing fire occurs around every 200 or 300 years. That's why Douglas fir was so abundant when settlers arrived. A west side fire is bad enough, but a wind pushed fire like happened there would be terrifying, and unstoppable until the wind died down.
> 
> People don't all live in town. Many live on acreage all over the valleys. Your fire break solution does not fit the situation. Another thing, large fires are not common in the temperate rain forest. We have called them asbestos forests in the past. While fires in parts of CA and east of the Cascades have historically burned every ten to twenty years, the west side is a whole different story. I've already mentioned the historical frequency for that side.
> 
> You are armchair quarterbacking. There is no easy solution. The old worn out saying works here--it was a perfect storm.


Sooooo. You are telling me that cutting trees/brush back from your property is useless. LMAO! It might not be the total answer, but YES it can and does help.


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## Stephen Meister

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Office of the state fire marshal in california made the wildland urban interface code for 100 foot defensible space...One of the few california policies that uses common sense. Like blades said the fed higher ups and environmental groups make the dumbass policies that don't allow for federal lands to be maintained properly, these are also the people who still think paying their firefighters 15 bucks an hour after 3 seasons is ok and still refuse to title them as firefighters unless the forest service has to buy them a coffin.


Gotcha, I figured it was a federal thing that stopped the proper forest management this way they could blame the fires on global warming.


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## catbuster

sbhooper said:


> Sooooo. You are telling me that cutting trees/brush back from your property is useless. LMAO! It might not be the total answer, but YES it can and does help.



She’s not. What she’s trying to convey to you, as someone who has fought fire on the west side of the Cascades is that for the specific instance that are crown fires in that type of terrain and timber are nigh impossible to stop with the weather conditions they have been experiencing.

I’m going to ask you a few questions.

1. Do you understand what a crown fire is?

2.Do you grasp the concepts of flame length, radiant heat and how the two correlate?

3. Do you have a good grasp on the concept of fuel load and how it relates to long-term weather conditions?

4. Do you understand how weather plays a critical part in wildland fire behavior?

5. Have you ever been out to or how familiar are you with where these things are cooking before the areas burned? This question relates strongly to 3. 

If you answer those 5 honestly, you should be able to understand how the fires in the western Cascades became the way they were. If you can’t answer them, then it’s much better to try to learn and listen to people who know than argue blindly with them. This is before we even begin to discuss spot fires.

In all, these aren’t grass or crop fires in Nebraska. I’ve done my fair share of that in R8/9, and it’s not even close fighting fire in R6.


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## Blue Oaks

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We've got laws that say we have to maintain a at least 30ft perimeter around a structure and 100ft around homes but enforcement is non-existent outside of a sternly worded letter, much of what I've seen comes down to one neighbor doing it as best they while right nextdoor they want to keep the pretty ferns and manzanita. One house that barely survived down the road from us was only because of the material used (metal,comp, and pavement) it was up against the overgrown forest boundary .



I've got a good 100 feet around my house, on my property. My problem is my lot is 150 feet wide and 550 feet deep. My house is fairly close to the property line and I've never met nor even seen the adjacent property owner. I end up cutting brush back and spraying round-up on property that's not mine, and I don't have permission to do so. But I have to do what I have to do.


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## slowp

sbhooper said:


> Sooooo. You are telling me that cutting trees/brush back from your property is useless. LMAO! It might not be the total answer, but YES it can and does help.



Nope. In Nebraska and other places it might work, although the Cold Springs fire we had here in the sagebrushy country is the fire that was pushed by 50mph winds and jumped the Columbia. All fires are not the same. All terrain is not the same. All forests are not the same. What works on flat land, like those little atvs with chains flailing to make a line does not work in the mountains. 

What I learned, back in the dark ages, was that on the west side, the best fireline, other than a road, is a charged fire hose spraying water and wetting down all the duff and foilage along the edges. That was not in a big wind, either. And that is not the answer to every situation. Wind is a game changer, as is topography and all the other stuff that you need to consider. 

Forestry is complicated and *site specific*, and most folks don't get that.


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## Hddnis

I got a call to estimate a fuel reduction around a home on a wooded property.

Seventy large firs within fifty feet of the house and garage. They wanted to "limb them up a little to protect the house in a fire" I told them flat out that they didn't have a prayer in a fire, so unless they wanted to remove a lot of trees they should just enjoy them and pray a fire never came through.

They lived at the top of a narrow canyon, the whole mile below them was not maintained in any way, overloaded with trees and brush, standing dead, ladder fuels, it was nasty. Local FD told me they would not even send anyone into that canyon in the case of a fire, no escape.

They said they thought limbing up the trees should at least help. They were nice enough, both professors at the local college, so I helped them with a little math. Based on size, working off the estimated total weight of each tree, and we had 8,400,000,000 BTUs being released within fifty feet of the house in less than a half hour. I told them that was three railcar loads of propane. The husband turned white, the wife said "but they're trees, not propane, so don't they burn slower?" Before I had time to answer it hit her too, she turned white and said "That would be like hell, holy cow it would be like a kiln here!" I just said "Now you understand."

They elected to just enjoy the trees and I cut a nice trail up out of the canyon behind the house that they can drive the UTV on, this gives them a second way out. Now their fire mitigation plan is to run. They store valuables in a safe in town, and got a digital copy of family photos. 

They have accepted reality, taken some reasonable precautions, and put their faith in insurance. Viva la trees!


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## Stephen Meister

I give a lot of credit to the men and women out fighting these fires. Getting trapped and burned alive just freaks me out.


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## Hddnis

Stephen Meister said:


> I give a lot of credit to the men and women out fighting these fires. Getting trapped and burned alive just freaks me out.



I could be wrong, but I think they work really hard to *NOT *get trapped and burned alive.


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## Stephen Meister

Hddnis said:


> I could be wrong, but I think they work really hard to *NOT *get trapped and burned alive.


Yeah but it happens, and I can’t imagine when the reality sets in that their life is over and they won’t be coming home to their family.


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## windthrown

Hddnis said:


> I got a call to estimate a fuel reduction around a home on a wooded property.
> 
> Seventy large firs within fifty feet of the house and garage. They wanted to "limb them up a little to protect the house in a fire" I told them flat out that they didn't have a prayer in a fire, so unless they wanted to remove a lot of trees they should just enjoy them and pray a fire never came through.
> 
> They lived at the top of a narrow canyon, the whole mile below them was not maintained in any way, overloaded with trees and brush, standing dead, ladder fuels, it was nasty. Local FD told me they would not even send anyone into that canyon in the case of a fire, no escape.
> 
> They said they thought limbing up the trees should at least help. They were nice enough, both professors at the local college, so I helped them with a little math. Based on size, working off the estimated total weight of each tree, and we had 8,400,000,000 BTUs being released within fifty feet of the house in less than a half hour. I told them that was three railcar loads of propane. The husband turned white, the wife said "but they're trees, not propane, so don't they burn slower?" Before I had time to answer it hit her too, she turned white and said "That would be like hell, holy cow it would be like a kiln here!" I just said "Now you understand."
> 
> They elected to just enjoy the trees and I cut a nice trail up out of the canyon behind the house that they can drive the UTV on, this gives them a second way out. Now their fire mitigation plan is to run. They store valuables in a safe in town, and got a digital copy of family photos.
> 
> They have accepted reality, taken some reasonable precautions, and put their faith in insurance. Viva la trees!



Fuel reduction? Look at the fire in Paradise and the recent Almeda fire in Southern Oregon. Cutting trees to reduce the fire risk was useless. At the wind speeds we had 2 weeks ago here (70MPH+) it will do little if anything to reduce the chances of a structure burning or not. I have pines within 10 feet of my house. But I also have 100s of square miles of trees to the south and east of me in the Mt Hood Forest and the Bull Run Watershed. Nothing will stop a fire advancing toward my property from either of those directions. So I have left the pines where they are. The beetles may kill them off though. I lost a few large pines here in the last few years to the bark beetles.

I was at a level 2 evacuation with 2 reverse 911 calls last week here. Since then I have gotten 3 inches of rain and the Riverside fire has stalled out. Fortunately. I am now at level 0 evacuation. But the south half of Clackamas County is still at level 3 evac.; leave now. This is the second fire in 3 years for me to come near here. The last one was the Gorge fire. Same thing, high east winds, hot late summer days.


----------



## TBS

This is whats left of Alder springs and pine ridge 50+ homes just a pile of ash.


----------



## Stephen Meister

TheBrushSlasher said:


> This is whats left of Alder springs and pine ridge 50+ homes just a pile of ash.
> View attachment 857780
> View attachment 857781
> View attachment 857783
> View attachment 857784


What a shame. These people are losing everything.


----------



## slowp

Hddnis said:


> I could be wrong, but I think they work really hard to *NOT *get trapped and burned alive.



Exactly. I've been "trapped" but it was in an area pre located called a safety zone. It was a large meadow and we took a break while the fire burned around it. It was a crown fire in lodgepole and pretty interesting to see. Our crew felt perfectly safe there, and we were. A crew next to us popped their shelters--talking later to their crewboss, he said they were very inexperienced (there were from the midwest) and he was afraid they would panic so he had them get in their shelters. Meanwhile, our sawyer was bellowing at the fire, "FIVE MORE MINUTES! FIVE MORE MINUTES AND WE'D UH HAD 'ER SWARPED!" Our crew was made up of folks from the different departments of our district, but we'd worked together a lot on slash burns and had that (sometimes exciting) experience together. 

Identifying a place to escape to is one of the big priorities and is done before work commences. 

*Swarp* is a term brought to the Big Bottom area of the Cowlitz Valley from settlers coming from East Tennesee. I used the term in Wisconsin and my boss heard me, and was delighted. He was from the Appalachians in one of the Carolinas. He had not heard it since leaving that area.


----------



## slowp

There is a lengthy article about our local fire in the Spokane newspaper today. One couple took refuge in a graveyard and survived unscathed. They and the firefighters described the winds as being very erratic--changing directions constantly.


----------



## Stephen Meister

slowp said:


> There is a lengthy article about our local fire in the Spokane newspaper today. One couple took refuge in a graveyard and survived unscathed. They and the firefighters described the winds as being very erratic--changing directions constantly.


Do you have a link to this?


----------



## Hddnis

This story?








'Burnt, like I am': After fires burn through Colville Reservation, efforts underway to recover, adapt


MONSE, Wash. – When the fire roared down the western edge of the Colville Reservation, Jimmy Timentwa jumped in the 2002 cherry red convertible Corvette he won in a casino drawing and left the cattle ranch that has been in his family for a century.




www.spokesman.com


----------



## northmanlogging

to give a little perspective to the nebraska/high plains vs PNW,

I've lived in both, the high plains and midwest timber stands, have very little underbrush, and the grass is very thin and short, while it does get dry there just isn't much fuel, less so in the sage brush areas. 

In the PNW the underbrush is incredibly dense, dense enough that lots of folks get lost a very short distance from trails and roads, I'm talking feet and yards here. That means a whole lot of fuel in the right conditions. Annnnd while nebraska might have a few random canyons, its mostly flat, with a very gradual drop to the east of less then 5000' across the length of the state. While in the PNW you can gain 5000' and still make it home for lunch, If you left the house at 10am, Talking nose bleed stuff here... (no really my brother used to get nose bleeds every time we drove into the hills... or every time he thought I would like to wrestle...which is never...so... pretty often lol)

Now all ya all bitchin about climate change etc, I've spent the better part of the last 30 years stomping through the brush in the PNW both for recreation, and as a living. And I've never seen the woods this dry, even the salal is dying off in places, ferns are dying back a month early, and the hemlock is overstocked and disease ridden. Its kinda scary out there. 

Add that to a bunch of hill billies that can't understand camping without a fire, or city slickers that don't understand cigarettes can start fires among 100's of other potential causes, and this current pandemic, you get exponentially more yayhoo's in the woods and exponentially more fires, Then all we need for a record setting catastrophe is some mild (for the great plains) winds and you have a fire that will burn everything in its path.


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## Hddnis

Many times this fire moved faster than a man can run. 

This shows some of the terrain it was burning in. I bet they gained 2500' of elevation after they left the highway to where the machines were parked.


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## slowp

Hddnis said:


> This story?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Burnt, like I am': After fires burn through Colville Reservation, efforts underway to recover, adapt
> 
> 
> MONSE, Wash. – When the fire roared down the western edge of the Colville Reservation, Jimmy Timentwa jumped in the 2002 cherry red convertible Corvette he won in a casino drawing and left the cattle ranch that has been in his family for a century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.spokesman.com



Yes, that story. That was the humongus white plume that was in the picture of the smaller fire across the river. The smaller fire burned up the not in production lumber mill so I guess the rumors of the mill reopening will stop.


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## Hddnis

slowp said:


> Yes, that story. That was the humongus white plume that was in the picture of the smaller fire across the river. The smaller fire burned up the not in production lumber mill so I guess the rumors of the mill reopening will stop.



I heard a rumor that they are going to rebuild the mill.




J/K, sorry, I know the rumors about mills reopening. I think they are based on hope. Hope that jobs will come back, the little communities they support will live on.


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## madhatte

Arggh, it never ends, does it?


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## slowp

The tribe owns or owned the mill. The story I got, and it may not be factual, was that the tribe wanted to lease out the mill but they were requiring that some or maybe it was that upgrades had to be made to make it operable and up to date. They were expecting whoever would lease it to make all the improvements and pay for it. Does that make sense? Not to mention that the tribe's forest lands have been burning up. I think I read where they lost a quarter? a third? of their tree inventory a few years ago. 

We see logs being hauled over to Colville and even logs going west somewhere--Darrington? Probably a load a day for a truck. Possibly two for Colville. Maybe not.


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## lightj12

Shout out to Tyler at Bothe State park in CA; currently encircled by the Glass fire in Sonoma and Napa Counties. Not looking good over there; hope that they can pull this one out.


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## Hddnis

That's only a couple miles from Calistoga. 

Looks like temps are supposed to be 104° tomorrow, winds picking up tomorrow night. Relative humidity down to 11%.

Going to be an interesting few days.

Strength and focus for the crews.


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## TBS

Just a short 6 mile run, well its shorter than the 22 mile run anyway.


If you have an alertwildfire camera showing a fire in your area they can make you a video if you ask


----------



## ATpro

The problem with these fires is the dead trees left and the accelerated growth of the fuel base which will only add to the fuel load for the next fire if not addressed properly. They have the opportunity to mitigate the buildup of the fuel load with control burns, access roads, Fire-lanes, proper management and such if they take advantage of the time given to them.

We were once in a dicey situation with a Control Burn where the helicopter made a mistake and boxed us in on the Helibase and a fire was headed for us with the wind. The only thing we could do is a Burn Out around us. We went upwind and started firing a line out each side and worked our way back down wind as the Burn Ou*t* progressed, This left black ground and a safety zone behind us. The main fire went around us, we were lucky we had time to prepare, the helicopter pilot realized what he had done and radioed us in time to prepare, he came in and helped us with the Burn Out and created a much larger Fire Perimeter.
The problem out west is these fires can move so fast that unburned fuel is left behind and you can have the danger of Reburn.


----------



## slowp

lightj12 said:


> Shout out to Tyler at Bothe State park in CA; currently encircled by the Glass fire in Sonoma and Napa Counties. Not looking good over there; hope that they can pull this one out.



Yah, I've been wondering. That park needs to burn but at a better time and not so hot. Saw a news clip with crews doing a burnout near Calistoga and I was hoping they were able to do that in the park. 

I can't even send any rain to trade for the smoke we are getting....


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## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> The tribe owns or owned the mill. The story I got, and it may not be factual, was that the tribe wanted to lease out the mill but they were requiring that some or maybe it was that upgrades had to be made to make it operable and up to date. They were expecting whoever would lease it to make all the improvements and pay for it. Does that make sense? Not to mention that the tribe's forest lands have been burning up. I think I read where they lost a quarter? a third? of their tree inventory a few years ago.
> 
> We see logs being hauled over to Colville and even logs going west somewhere--Darrington? Probably a load a day for a truck. Possibly two for Colville. Maybe not.


bit late on this one, Depending on which pass they go over, there is a SP mill in Burlington for HWY 20, or Darrington same highway, I heard the scuttlebutt that a lot of loads were coming to Darrington from the east side... but scuttlebutt..

If they Go over I90, there is several options, there is a resort/export yard in Snoqualmie that just opened up, Formark in Everett is back online (after recovering a little from the trade war BS) or if its big stuff they might go to BUSE in Everett as well, maybe Canyon Creek, if its real purdy logs... them jerks are picky picky

Buddy of mine spent the better part of the summer/spring/winter hauling ceder from this side to Kettle Falls, then picking up a load from over there somewhere and bringing it back from what I understand the mill in Kettle Falls covers trucking... why there is a ceder mill over there is beyond me but what evs... For the record its 300 miles one way... with 2 passes in the way.


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## lightj12

Looks like a good portion of the park has been consumed per the current cal fire map; the usual camp site, maintenance yard, and visitor center are still intact. In agreement; burns are needed in this state and others to manage the epidemic. Smoked out down here for the better part of the last 3 months; the new norm.


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## Drptrch

Fuel break ain’t stopping this, when wind involved 

Glass Fire (Napa/Sonoma County)




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## slowp

This worked. http://www.ifiberone.com/columbia_b...F_ko9f__rHSE6bissDI9-UHhnb1Y1Y3vkw5tIaHsaUUVk

Note the part about water being scarce. That area is where some people even have to haul water.


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## 2dogs

That is a good article and a great image. However where I live you would never be able to get a permit to clear further than 30' from the structure. Even when Cal Fire made an inspection and told the homeowners to clear away from the house the County stepped in ordered the project to cease. An appeal takes 1-2 years and is very costly and will likely be declined. There is a case in south county where a new homeowner removed a large poison oak patch for the safety of his family, A neighbor complained to the County and the result was the homeowner had to purchase poison oak and replant the patch. (This is why never comes here to visit).

Now all of that happened before the CZU Lightning Complex of 8/16/20. Our little county lost nearly 1,000 single family residences! The lawyers are circling the county looking for fire victims so the law suits against Cal Fire can begin. (Same goes for suits against the insurance companies). The County is "steamlining" the permit process for those rebuilding, going so far as the wave some permit fees for formerly permitted structures. Any non-permitted structures require the normal $75k-$125k fees up front. The money buys you a rubber stamp.

I think the County will attempt to blame the residents for the loss of their homes, many of which are at fault. All of the little illegal weed farms burned and because the farmers want to be screened from the eyes of law enforcement and weed thieves and so did no vegetation management. Too bad for them. Only time will tell what's next.


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## slowp

Took this while on a bike ride today. That hillside, and a lot of acreage beyond it, and on and on was burned in the Cold Springs Fire which is the one that started up here and burned to the Columbia River, jumped the river and took off into brush mixed with wheat stubble lands. I've tried several times and I can't get the hillside to photograph as black as it is. It did jump the highway in a few places.


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## slowp

A couple of folks here were accused of this during the Carlton Complex. Later, I'm thinking, the charges were dropped. No communications with IC, what could possibly go wrong?
https://wildfiretoday.com/2020/10/0...VeuGMWMrq3hJFahfNgdTowx6q2yz8MzVdTc9UI5cqlJyw


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## Drptrch

Hang on tight, here we go 









North Ops Weather-2020


Prepare for a Diablo wind event lasting from Wednesday through Friday morning. There is now high confidence in a Diablo wind event occurring and Federal forecast agencies are aligned this will be a high risk event. The National Weather Service has issued multiple Fire Weather Watches from...




forums.wildfireintel.org






Heavy Task-Force Prepo @ Marin County 

WT 15 (me)
WT 880
Eng 604
Eng 611 
Eng 325 
Eng 362 
Eng 59


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## atpchas

Impressive pictures of Colorado fire, the aptly named East Troublesome fire:





East Troublesome Fire Spreads to the Rockies


The blaze grew 140,000 acres in 24 hours to become the second largest fire in Colorado history.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


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## 2dogs

The State or the County (not sure which) has just put up the big trailer mounted, gasoline powered sign boards along Hwy 9 warning of debris flow area. I expect I will be seeing lots of these.


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## Haywire

Slash burning season here.


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## TBS

Well the Creek fire she done FINALLY! Mother nature brought in icy firefighting foam from the sky today and last night to cover the entire fire from 5 to 20 inches.


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## Hddnis

A lot of fires have wrapped up in the last few weeks thanks to mother natures fire blanket. Been seeing lots of equipment being hauled out of the mountains.


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## TBS

Hddnis said:


> A lot of fires have wrapped up in the last few weeks thanks to mother natures fire blanket. Been seeing lots of equipment being hauled out of the mountains.



We've seen the equipment at the base camp change from fire engines and crews to excavators, dozers, and safety guys. Lots of fire line repair to get done.


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## Hddnis

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We've seen the equipment at the base camp change from fire engines and crews to excavators, dozers, and safety guys. Lots of fire line repair to get done.



Yeah, the cleanup and getting the hiways safe again is a bigger job in some ways. My brother has been driving dump truck every day for the last month, hauling rocks, stumps and logs that are too big for the chippers. On the stretch of road he's working on they figure at least another month before it reopens.


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## TBS

Me and my neighbors are still waiting on getting the brush piles removed from our properties but got a phone number from a friend with the forest service that put me in touch with our local battalion chief, my friend is a tad upset with this guy because he was supposed to look at a few areas over the last couple weeks but didn't. He met with me this afternoon and discussed burning or chipping I said I'm fine with either just as long as it's gone before the end of the year.


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## northwest saws

Haywire said:


> Slash burning season here.
> View attachment 866089


I'm going to guess and say that's somewhere north of Missoula or maybe up by Plains or Thompson Falls? Just finished burning up piles here on the Lochsa in north-central Idaho ourselves, always a good way to end the season. Most fires are wrapping up, maybe a little bit still in southern california? Sit report shows most of em' close to full containment. Cameron Peak fire in northern Colorado might still have a little bit of heat left, still has 3 crews and 10 engines on it. I took a type 6 engine up there at the end of September through early October and it cranked a few times. Snowed on us twice, melted off and dried back out then took off again. That was the norm with that fire for awhile there, some impressive winds that come through that area. Actually we might be sending an engine down to southern California soon and rotating folks out every 14 days for a few cycles, might happen pretty soon too!


----------



## Haywire

northwest saws said:


> I'm going to guess and say that's somewhere north of Missoula or maybe up by Plains or Thompson Falls? Just finished burning up piles here on the Lochsa in north-central Idaho ourselves, always a good way to end the season. Most fires are wrapping up, maybe a little bit still in southern california? Sit report shows most of em' close to full containment. Cameron Peak fire in northern Colorado might still have a little bit of heat left, still has 3 crews and 10 engines on it. I took a type 6 engine up there at the end of September through early October and it cranked a few times. Snowed on us twice, melted off and dried back out then took off again. That was the norm with that fire for awhile there, some impressive winds that come through that area. Actually we might be sending an engine down to southern California soon and rotating folks out every 14 days for a few cycles, might happen pretty soon too!View attachment 871533


Pretty close. Just west of Kalispell.


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## atpchas

The burn scars are something else!




__





New Fires Scorch the Hills of Southern California


The state’s brutal fire season has not ended.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


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## TBS

Sometimes you're a hero but other times you realize you're just human and you feel helpless.


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## Drptrch

Someone just sent this to me, it’s our Engine 613 and 604 on the 2019 Kincade fire in Sonoma County when it blew down into the Chalk Hill valley




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## 2dogs

Dang! I have a lot of burn piles built air quality is not looking good.


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## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Dang! I have a lot of burn piles built air quality is not looking good.



Hey how’s it going my friend. All good I hope. 

They’ve been burning like crazy daily up here in Sonoma County from the Coast inland. Lots of burn debris to get rid of 
Hell they even gave me one and im in the BAAQ District . Switches to the less restrictive Northern Sonoma Co district bout 15 min North of me . 


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## HumBurner

AQM, LOL!


calfire doesn't really seem to care for the AQM folks either. So many wasted burn days if you only burn on "burn days."


The brush is going to burn one of these days...better to do it during the winter\spring than feed the wildfires!


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## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Hey how’s it going my friend. All good I hope.
> 
> They’ve been burning like crazy daily up here in Sonoma County from the Coast inland. Lots of burn debris to get rid of
> Hell they even gave me one and im in the BAAQ District . Switches to the less restrictive Northern Sonoma Co district bout 15 min North of me .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Things are going well for me thank you. 

I am working on three projects at camp. Right now our biggest concern is making the insurance company happy, which I don't think is possible. We are 2 miles or so from the CZU scar, we were shut out for a few weeks but no damage. When our insurance came up for renewal the previous insurer just laughed and hung up the phone. Now we are in some sort of "last resort" insurance pool that has pretty strict requirements that if we don't meet them in about a month we will have to pay a huge penalty, like our rate may double in price! In addition they imposed a 1.5 million dollar limit per camp. We just put 7 million dollars of new buildings at one camp alone. The camp I work at has two 1.5 million dollar buildings next to each other. 

The second project is prepping for a CFIP grant project that will be (mostly) a masticator job. The grant project will not clear within 50'of a road and 300' of buildings. We have to meet CFIP, CEQA, EPA, County, and a few other agencies' requirements. Cal Fire has been great but they called a full stop after fire siege 2020 to see if they still had money left. We are just now getting some reassurances that we will be able to proceed.

The third project is the one I have been working on for over two years, thinning, reducing the fuel load, reforesting, and making our camp a bright sunny experience for the campers (when Covid has been dealt with).

BUT THEN Emperor Newsom got involved! As you know he is decimating the Conservation Camp program. He closed eight camps January 1st and is not back filling the remaining camps. Each camp IIRC is set up for five inmate hand crews of roughly 16 crew members. Our camp, Ben Lomond, can barely field two crews of 11 or 12. You know better that I do the what controls a wildland fire is aircraft, dozers, and hand crews. (And who else is going to pick up the hose municipal Type 3s lay out for structure protection? How many miles of hose was laid in Cali this year?)

Without the inmate crews only illegal alien crews are available to do this kind of work. Yes I know Cal Fire now has seasonal "civilian" hand crews and more are coming but so far these crews don't put out near the work the inmate crews do, at least from what I've heard.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Things are going well for me thank you.
> 
> I am working on three projects at camp. Right now our biggest concern is making the insurance company happy, which I don't think is possible. We are 2 miles or so from the CZU scar, we were shut out for a few weeks but no damage. When our insurance came up for renewal the previous insurer just laughed and hung up the phone. Now we are in some sort of "last resort" insurance pool that has pretty strict requirements that if we don't meet them in about a month we will have to pay a huge penalty, like our rate may double in price! In addition they imposed a 1.5 million dollar limit per camp. We just put 7 million dollars of new buildings at one camp alone. The camp I work at has two 1.5 million dollar buildings next to each other.
> 
> The second project is prepping for a CFIP grant project that will be (mostly) a masticator job. The grant project will not clear within 50'of a road and 300' of buildings. We have to meet CFIP, CEQA, EPA, County, and a few other agencies' requirements. Cal Fire has been great but they called a full stop after fire siege 2020 to see if they still had money left. We are just now getting some reassurances that we will be able to proceed.
> 
> The third project is the one I have been working on for over two years, thinning, reducing the fuel load, reforesting, and making our camp a bright sunny experience for the campers (when Covid has been dealt with).
> 
> BUT THEN Emperor Newsom got involved! As you know he is decimating the Conservation Camp program. He closed eight camps January 1st and is not back filling the remaining camps. Each camp IIRC is set up for five inmate hand crews of roughly 16 crew members. Our camp, Ben Lomond, can barely field two crews of 11 or 12. You know better that I do the what controls a wildland fire is aircraft, dozers, and hand crews. (And who else is going to pick up the hose municipal Type 3s lay out for structure protection? How many miles of hose was laid in Cali this year?)
> 
> Without the inmate crews only illegal alien crews are available to do this kind of work. Yes I know Cal Fire now has seasonal "civilian" hand crews and more are coming but so far these crews don't put out near the work the inmate crews do, at least from what I've heard.



Busy guy !!

Pick up hose ??
80,000 + feet, tanks, pumps, trash from the North Fire in La Porte 











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## Drptrch

@2dogs. Bunch of fires Bonney Doon area of CZU. 


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## Drptrch

Lotta starts out here in both Central and Southern California, big wind event with low, low Rh’s.
We had 50-60 mph gusts and Rh of 12 on the peaks 


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## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> @2dogs. Bunch of fires Bonney Doon area of CZU.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk











CA-CZU-Bonny Complex


From CZU Facebook at 1600 UPDATE: #ChinaGradeFire is burning on China Grade Rd and Foxglove Lane, 4 miles northwest of Boulder Creek. It is 20 acres, burning in timber, and is 100% contained. No evacuations. (Santa Cruz County) The #FreedomFire on Freedom Road north of Watsonville is 40...




forums.wildfireintel.org






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## Wildland_Firefighter

Was out near Willow Creek/Hoopa, CA on the Salmon Complex. Can't believe what the Carr Fire did to Redding. I had old pictures from years ago when coming through Redding and going to Hoopa/Willow Creek. The landscape wiped out from what it was before.


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## Drptrch

Wildland_Firefighter said:


> Was out near Willow Creek/Hoopa, CA on the Salmon Complex. Can't believe what the Carr Fire did to Redding. I had old pictures from years ago when coming through Redding and going to Hoopa/Willow Creek. The landscape wiped out from what it was before.



Followed by the Delta/Hirz fire on Interstate 5 and then the Explosive, Destructive and Deadly Camp Fire a few months later in November that destroyed The Town of Paradise 


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## Drptrch

Active pile burning today in Sonoma County ))


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## Wildland_Firefighter

I've been plowing firebreaks. Getting ready to burn off some woods myself.


----------



## Blue Oaks

After almost no rain this weather season, the Santa Cruz Mountains are projected to get as much as 10 inches of rain this week. It might get ugly in the burn areas.


----------



## Drptrch

A very worthy cause for a Solid stand up guy











Bill Kuche Needs a Kidney, organized by Lyndsey Kuche


BILL (WILLIAM) KUCHE NEEDS A KIDNEY My name is Lyndsey Kuche, my husband Bill Kuche is th… Lyndsey Kuche needs your support for Bill Kuche Needs a Kidney



www.gofundme.com






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## slowp

Went for a run the Demon Dog ride yesterday. Lots of new fencing in the area where the Cold Springs fire blew through in September. My favorite grove of aspens, which were colorful in the fall, is toast. The only green areas were the patches of winter wheat. Salvage logging was going on where there were trees.


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## Backyard Lumberjack

slowp said:


> Went for a run the Demon Dog ride yesterday. Lots of new fencing in the area where the Cold Springs fire blew through in September. My favorite grove of aspens, which were colorful in the fall, is toast. The only green areas were the patches of winter wheat. Salvage logging was going on where there were trees.
> 
> View attachment 893697
> 
> 
> View attachment 893698


hi sp - swell pix. pix of Washington... looks like places i had hunter deer with my Dad...


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## Backyard Lumberjack

hope qualifies for this thread... one of my often daily... campfires...


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## TBS

This fire related weather event in early hours on September 6 during the Creek fire has kinda been forgotten about. Thunder and Heard in oakhurst, north fork, and auberry with lightning seen by shuteye lookout then the big column collapse.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Wow! Crazy.


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## TBS

Blue Oaks said:


> Wow! Crazy.



It was an uneasy and weird feeling when I was opening the gates at work and seeing an orange glow in the canyon up river from us through a dark and hazy 5am.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> This fire related weather event in early hours on September 6 during the Creek fire has kinda been forgotten about. Thunder and Heard in oakhurst, north fork, and auberry with lightning seen by shuteye lookout then the big column collapse.




The video capture of collapse’s and wind shifts has been a great visual training tool to emphasize the severity and how quickly things can go to Crap

The “Beaver Fire” 2013 (I think)entrapment on (Lessons Learned) on the Klam was a direct result of outflow winds from a T-cell on the opposite side of the fire. Footage is from those involved 


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## TBS

This could have been a lot worse for these guys on Williston rural fire department.


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## catbuster

God damn, that fire blew up into the crowns in a hurry. 

I wish I could tell you I don’t do that with my Type 6 engine, but the honest answer is that I think everyone does it. The fire looks like it’s at an awkward stage to fight, too intense to go after indirectly but too small to keep one foot in the black. Either way, they had viable escape routes but were _way _too close for their own good.


----------



## old CB

Just curious if other fire guys are having to "retrofit" the clear plastic case for your fire shelters? Our local outfits "recommend" that this be done, due to some people finding that the shelter does not shake open easily enough. The retrofit is you cut a 1/4" slit in either side of the case just next to where the red strip is attached (etc.)

I'm a believer in If it ain't broke don't fix it, and these shelters (mine's a 2009) have been serving. If I ever have to deploy, I'm pretty sure I'll shake that thing loose.

Is this necessary? Are others doing it?


----------



## 2dogs

Yesterday I lit off burn piles number 89 and 90 for this season. They were wet and didn't burn well but at least some fuel was reduced. Unfortunately these two piles are likely the last of the season (which ends 4/30) because the rest are on slopes and are pretty dry. I don't want to be on the front page of the local fish wrapper for starting a fire. This unit has had 5 piles escape in the last week.


----------



## Blue Oaks

old CB said:


> Just curious if other fire guys are having to "retrofit" the clear plastic case for your fire shelters? Our local outfits "recommend" that this be done, due to some people finding that the shelter does not shake open easily enough. The retrofit is you cut a 1/4" slit in either side of the case just next to where the red strip is attached (etc.)
> 
> I'm a believer in If it ain't broke don't fix it, and these shelters (mine's a 2009) have been serving. If I ever have to deploy, I'm pretty sure I'll shake that thing loose.
> 
> Is this necessary? Are others doing it?



I hadn't heard that, but we're training with Cal Fire on Sat and I'll ask when we do shelter deployments.


----------



## Drptrch

It’s the PVC bag, under heat wasn’t always tearing open at the pull tabs but sometimes stretching 



https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/committee/docs/etc-ea-2021-01.pdf





https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/committee/docs/fsppes-2021-fire-shelter-training-reminders.pdf




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## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> I hadn't heard that, but we're training with Cal Fire on Sat and I'll ask when we do shelter deployments.





https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/committee/docs/etc-ea-2021-01.pdf




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## old CB

We'll be doing our wildland refresher Saturday. I'll find out more. One guy in our dept. was offering to do the retrofit recently, but I didn't hear more so I passed on the opportunity.

Since I don't have the adhesive dot material to cover the vent holes, I hesitate to go forward with this. Will find out more in a few days.


----------



## Drptrch

Perspective on COVID and related issues from the Cameron Peak fire in Colorado via the Facilitated Lessons learned route






Experience







experience.arcgis.com






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## old CB

It's been quite a year. We had one 2020 fire that jumped the continental divide, was burning in the tundra on the way over, which I believe is a first on both counts.

There's also some consideration about two fires that began in Boulder County in mid-October, both in same neighborhood, with no apparent means of ignition, and people wonder if embers from a fire west of the divide could have jumped and started these two. The first one (Calwood Fire) began at a moment when we had sustained 50 mph winds from the west. That would have required a 30 mile travel thru the sky. The greatest documented ember travel before was 18 miles (in Australia). My first reaction would be to discount a 30 mile ember ignition, but we are in unprecedented times so who knows.


----------



## RandyMac

Got a fire burning on the Klamath NF in two old burns near Happy Camp


----------



## TBS

old CB said:


> It's been quite a year. We had one 2020 fire that jumped the continental divide, was burning in the tundra on the way over, which I believe is a first on both counts.
> 
> There's also some consideration about two fires that began in Boulder County in mid-October, both in same neighborhood, with no apparent means of ignition, and people wonder if embers from a fire west of the divide could have jumped and started these two. The first one (Calwood Fire) began at a moment when we had sustained 50 mph winds from the west. That would have required a 30 mile travel thru the sky. The greatest documented ember travel before was 18 miles (in Australia). My first reaction would be to discount a 30 mile ember ignition, but we are in unprecedented times so who knows.


Could have been pyrocumulonimbus lightning, The Creek fire had spot fires from lightning 10-20 miles from the main fire which were confirmed by the national weather service because they were monitoring what the pyrocumulonimbus was doing on radar because it had strong rotation, can't issue a tornado warning when people are evacuating.

This is what I saw.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> Got a fire burning on the Klamath NF in two old burns near Happy Camp









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## 2dogs

We have had a couple recent rekindles in the CZU Lightning Complex. That fire started August 16th, 2020 and burned more than 86,000 acres.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> We have had a couple recent rekindles in the CZU Lightning Complex. That fire started August 16th, 2020 and burned more than 86,000 acres.



Yep not enough deep wetting rain or snowpack melt for some of these 


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## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Yep not enough deep wetting rain or snowpack melt for some of these
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. I hope we will not have anymore wind events until after summer.


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## TBS




----------



## Blue Oaks

Blue Oaks said:


> I hadn't heard that, but we're training with Cal Fire on Sat and I'll ask when we do shelter deployments.



I asked the training officer and he hadn't heard about it. 

We had a good day. We promoted 7 new members to Operational Firefighter after they completed their necessary training. Since we only had about 8 operational guys before, it's a huge jump for us. 

I had a good chuckle when a guy from a neighboring department went from being Mr. Know-It-All during the hand line and progressive hose lays to having to do his shelter deployment three times to get it right.


----------



## old CB

Our wildland refresher on Saturday reinforced that we are in serious drought conditions. Usually this time of year I try to reassure some hand-wringing folks that we're not as dry as you might think--ground moisture and fuels moisture are better than what's apparent to many residents. But not this year. The outlook is pretty spooky.

In 2010 the Fourmile Fire (just over the hill into the next drainage from my place) was the largest, most destructive fire in Colorado history. That's been eclipsed several times since. And I forget whether it's twice or three times last year that we set new state records. Not looking forward to what 2021 has to offer.

On the positive side, I learned that a girl who worked with me briefly in recent years is now in her fourth (5th?) year as a smoke jumper. Pretty impressive. She's now training some of the rookies.


----------



## Blue Oaks

One thing we noticed was the grass was only ankle high instead of the usual knee high this time of year in the same meadow. 

Next training day for our department will cover water sources, which is good to know in our area. I've been working on a project to add 2 water tanks to my property, bringing my storage from 5k to 11k gallons. My next door neighbor has 15k gallons. My tanks will have valves with NH ports on them, and the neighbor has two hydrants with NH threads.


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> One thing we noticed was the grass was only ankle high instead of the usual knee high this time of year in the same meadow.
> 
> Next training day for our department will cover water sources, which is good to know in our area. I've been working on a project to add 2 water tanks to my property, bringing my storage from 5k to 11k gallons. My next door neighbor has 15k gallons. My tanks will have valves with NH ports on them, and the neighbor has two hydrants with NH threads.



Yeah last year the Bay Area got a mid April rain spell that re boosted the flashy fuel growth
I’m about Knee to waist high West of Petaluma, but a very different field make up this year.

Nice on the tanks, I have 2-4500 tanks, one cause my well only produces 3-4 gpm 

I plumed a gas pump into a “T” I can draw from and I have an old Floto pump






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## 2dogs

CAL FIRE Director, "Our hand crew capacity is really dismal" - Wildfire Today


Inmate hand crews are at 30-40 percent capacity




wildfiretoday.com





Obviously the director of Cal Fire can't come out and say this problem is the governor's fault but I can. The hand crews have been slashed over the years to cut costs, not just because of Covid. Newsom has to go and the CDCR crews need to be built back up! There are more than 120,000 prisoners in Cali! Use them!


----------



## slowp

2dogs said:


> CAL FIRE Director, "Our hand crew capacity is really dismal" - Wildfire Today
> 
> 
> Inmate hand crews are at 30-40 percent capacity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wildfiretoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously the director of Cal Fire can't come out and say this problem is the governor's fault but I can. The hand crews have been slashed over the years to cut costs, not just because of Covid. Newsom has to go and the CDCR crews need to be built back up! There are more than 120,000 prisoners in Cali! Use them!


That's probably not going to happen because of all the reporting of slave labor. Wish folks would hear what the inmate crews have to say, like how much more pleasant it is to not be in a jail. I see more and more reporting of how unfair the system is, when the alternative is to have those folks locked up being of no use. That's what is going to happen I fear.


----------



## sbhooper

My kid has already been on several fires this year. It is well ahead of normal fire time. This is shaping up to be a non-stop year for them-again!


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> That's probably not going to happen because of all the reporting of slave labor. Wish folks would hear what the inmate crews have to say, like how much more pleasant it is to not be in a jail. I see more and more reporting of how unfair the system is, when the alternative is to have those folks locked up being of no use. That's what is going to happen I fear.


You are probably correct Patty. We have nextdoor.com here and that has given a voice to the crazies who never leave their house. Their expert commentary says the inmates are dropped off at a fire and told to put it out or else. They will receive no food, no water, and no supervision. There is no try, there is only do.

I work with the inmate hand crews every month all year long on grade projects. Believe me they want to be in camp rather than the yard! (Some have asked to return to the yard because the gang leaders have ordered them to stop working with the cops, aka Cal Fire or CDCR. or they will kill their family.) 

I may have posted it here but my favorite nextdoor.com comment came from a woman who wants to stop dropping slurry on fires (and spraying contrails) and drop MUD! Dropping regular mud to a depth of 4" on the perimeter of the fir will contain it naturally. Then then can drop mud on all the hot spots. I calculated how much mud the 86K CZU complex would have used but I don't remember to total. suffice to say it was mucho.


----------



## old CB

The best possible opportunity for anyone behind bars is to: 1. get off campus, 2. do useful work that raises his or her standing in the world and also provides a good night's sleep, and 3. do that out in the country.

Nextdoor became available here sometime back. Your info reminds me why I stay away from it.


----------



## TBS

2dogs said:


> You are probably correct Patty. We have nextdoor.com here and that has given a voice to the crazies who never leave their house. Their expert commentary says the inmates are dropped off at a fire and told to put it out or else. They will receive no food, no water, and no supervision. There is no try, there is only do.
> 
> I work with the inmate hand crews every month all year long on grade projects. Believe me they want to be in camp rather than the yard! (Some have asked to return to the yard because the gang leaders have ordered them to stop working with the cops, aka Cal Fire or CDCR. or they will kill their family.)
> 
> I may have posted it here but my favorite nextdoor.com comment came from a woman who wants to stop dropping slurry on fires (and spraying contrails) and drop MUD! Dropping regular mud to a depth of 4" on the perimeter of the fir will contain it naturally. Then then can drop mud on all the hot spots. I calculated how much mud the 86K CZU complex would have used but I don't remember to total. suffice to say it was mucho.


Before that you have to transport the dirt to make mud and getting the dirt would essentially strip mine wherever it comes from and before you gotta get some big ****in machines to dig a hole and before that good luck getting that approved.

I hate nextdoor because it gives people a platform to be nosey neighbors plus it's another place for people to share a whole bunch false information.

It's sad that so many people will actually believe the person that says inmates get dropped off unsupervised told to put out a fire and with out food and water especially in this day and age when you can't go 10 yards without seeing someone with a camera in their phone. Somebody would have got a video of it.


----------



## slowp

Yup. I worked near them back in the dark ages. The inmate crews really appreciated getting to get on fires. Their guards said it was good duty also because seldom was one going to try to escape because that meant a return to jail and at that, county jail for a bit, which is supposed to be worse than the state prisons. 

Our crew just didn't like how long they took in the showers and one guy on our crew got a bit crude about it. They did take really really long showers making us stand for a really really long time in line.


----------



## Hddnis

Every inmate crew I worked with loved being outside doing something. Everything they did was voluntary and the privilege to qualify for the work was coveted. 

Sure there were a few bad apples that got sent back, really small percentage.

We had a goofball here that was trying to get the nextdoor community all whipped up into a frenzy because they walked by a yard that wasn't as neat as they thought it should be, proposing all kinds of laws and enforcement. nextdoor community pretty much told the person off and made it clear that if they didn't like it they should walk a different route. It was mildly entertaining.


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## TBS

Global supertanker company is no more and tanker 944 is for sale.





Fire Aviation


News and commentary about wildland fire and aerial firefighting




fireaviation.com


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## Drptrch

Lessons learned on Colorado's Cameron Peak Fire where 76 people tested positive for COVID-19 - Wildfire Today


Two fire personnel were hospitalized and 273 had to be quarantined while the fire was being suppressed




wildfiretoday.com





And a sad follow up






Wildfire Today


News and opinion about wildland fire




wildfiretoday.com






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## Drptrch

Watch out , Elephant King on its way 




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## Drptrch

@@@@@@@@@


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## slowp

Drptrch said:


> Watch out , Elephant King on its way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



I'd say that you can get an engine into pretty much the same places. Lessons learned from working with forwarders in Up Nort Wisconsin are that they don't do well on slopes and would not work on what we here in the PNW consider to be flat ground, they like to go straight, and they are expensive, maybe too expensive to have sitting around waiting for a fire on flat ground.


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## Drptrch

slowp said:


> I'd say that you can get an engine into pretty much the same places. Lessons learned from working with forwarders in Up Nort Wisconsin are that they don't do well on slopes and would not work on what we here in the PNW consider to be flat ground, they like to go straight, and they are expensive, maybe too expensive to have sitting around waiting for a fire on flat ground.



For sure. I saw a tracked one with an extendable turret back in ‘08 (NorCal lightning event) above Big Bar on the Trinity river 
Used it on steep non- pitched dozer line during a firing op and mop up patrol. Helos dumping into pumpkins and Klump pumps that would fill him.
Think there was big resource draw down though 


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## TBS

Drptrch said:


> For sure. I saw a tracked one with an extendable turret back in ‘08 (NorCal lightning event) above Big Bar on the Trinity river
> Used it on steep non- pitched dozer line during a firing op and mop up patrol. Helos dumping into pumpkins and Klump pumps that would fill him.
> Think there was big resource draw down though
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



08 was had a big resource draw down with fires across the north half of the state then came the telegraph fire with a request for 75 strike teams when it blew up. 

I think there were a couple of these on the creek fire, I remember them being in the auberry camp.


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## 2dogs

I've always had a soft spot for panzerfeuerwagens.


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## slowp

Some loggers moved from the east side of Warshington to the west side. They brought their mechanized equipment. They used their forwarder on one rare, flat unit. After that, I saw the forwarder being used as a guyline anchor for their newly acquired yarder. Kind of an expensive guyline stump, but it worked. Then they sold it. They found out that A. There wasn't much ground flat enough to use a forwarder on and B. the mills in the area paid more for long logs. 

If they are using them on really steep ground, are they having to go straight up and down and are they anchoring the forwarder and winching it? In Wisconsin, they tipped over when going side hill on a 30% slope. That was considered to be steep ground in Up Nort Wisconsin.


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## sbhooper

Drptrch said:


> Lessons learned on Colorado's Cameron Peak Fire where 76 people tested positive for COVID-19 - Wildfire Today
> 
> 
> Two fire personnel were hospitalized and 273 had to be quarantined while the fire was being suppressed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wildfiretoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a sad follow up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wildfire Today
> 
> 
> News and opinion about wildland fire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wildfiretoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


Part of my kid's crew was recently tested for antibodies. They were on that fire. They had all had Covid and none had any issues. It affects different people differently, but generally, those with good immune systems do just fine with it.


----------



## Drptrch

sbhooper said:


> Part of my kid's crew was recently tested for antibodies. They were on that fire. They had all had Covid and none had any issues. It affects different people differently, but generally, those with good immune systems do just fine with it.



For sure, and sometimes there’s no rhyme or reason that’s the Sh!tty part 
People you’d think, unaffected and people you’d not expect, messed up 

That’s good news and hopefully nothing comes of it later 

From a retired Co-workers daughter:

First off, I want to say Thank you and how appreciative I am for all of you checking in on me and making sure I'm doing/have been alright. I wish I could personally send each of you a letter, but to be completely transparent, my attention span now is half what it was, my short term memory isn't so great and I would hate to leave any of you out. So here I am, relying on my Papa to help me and I know he'll follow through. I'm so grateful for all of you and the support, love and care you've not only shown me, but also my dad as well. I think about how lucky he is to have such supportive and caring individuals in his life and I appreciate you immensely for that. I'm so fortunate to have such amazing individuals in my life, because of him. 



Where to start. Well first off, I'd like to report that I'm doing ok. I try to have humor in some of the areas of my life that have changed; at this point you just have to. I'm now 80+ days out from my initial symptoms (loss of taste and smell was first) and positive COVID test. Much of September is lost to me. I remember bits and pieces (like the wonderful facetime video I got to have with many of you, during your 911 remembrance day). I think part of my brain has blocked that month out and other parts that I was just too ill and tired to remember. Where I'm at now is, I have a myriad of side effects Covid has left me with and many/most I do not have answers for. However, I'm alive, I didn't have to be hospitalized or on a vent. and for that I am incredibly grateful. I can't say it enough, I have so much to be thankful for.



Regarding my current side effects though, the most concerning to me (as well as my parents and my primary) is the shortness of breath I still experience and the frequent episodes of tachycardia. Sometimes I get so short of breath, you'd think I was 500lbs running a marathon, same with showering. The tachycardia I experience daily, started approx. 6 weeks after symptom onset. At first, it was only posturally and my BPM would jump 10-20 beats. Now most recently, it will additionally come on for no apparent reason, sometimes just while laying down and sometimes while being up and walking. It's a mystery that many "Long Covid" patients experience and so far don't have answers for. I now have referrals to both a pulmonologist (very hard to get in to if you weren't hospitalized), as well as a cardiologist and will be fitted with a cardiac monitor (Zio Patch). The rest of the issues, I'm slowly getting used to and am learning how to handle, such as the fatigue and weakness, muscle/joint pain, dizziness, headaches, chronic dry eyes, gastritis, insomnia, nausea...the list goes on. 



Overall, I do not recommend getting COVID; 10 out of 10 do NOT recommend. Period. It is in no way, shape or form "just like a bad cold or flu" and you truly don't know what side you're going to come out on. Heck, I'm 28yo, was healthy as a clam before this, free of any comorbidities or health complications. I haven't smoked a day in my life, barely consumed alcohol, I exercised regularly and ate healthy. The fact of the matter is, you really don't know how it will affect YOU or those you love. I have to say, the scariest part of getting COVID while being home in California, was the chance of giving it to my parents. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself if that happened. I remember being so scared that they would contract it and it would do more harm to them, than me. By the grace of God, they didn't and I'm so incredibly grateful for that and I hope they still never contract it. However, that feeling of being worried and scared went both ways, for me and for them. I wouldn't wish that fear on anyone and it's something I think most don't consider when making "in the moment" decisions. There's a level of risk I think as humans, we're all willing to take, but sometimes in some situations, we really have to think about the potential consequences or outcomes those risks can have for us and for those we love. Especially during a pandemic. 



I hope that this letter finds each of you healthy and that your loved ones are healthy as well. Again, I thank you so much for the support, care and compassion you've all shown me and my dad these past months. He's very lucky to have such amazing humans in his life and I'm so grateful that he shares those people with me. I've learned an incredible amount and I've been reminded of quite a bit, too. Our health is something we just cannot take for granted, however I know sometimes it's easy too. Who knew I would miss tasting food so much or smelling clean laundry? And another thing is how much love and support we have in our lives. I thank you all for reminding me of that and for sharing it with my dad too. 

She is still under a cardiologists care and making good but slow progress. A sad life changer for a bright future 

Thx 




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## TBS

This video shows how little time people had to make it to mammoth pool before the Creek fire came through bringing a tornado with it!!


----------



## 2dogs

At least four fires have been reported in the CZU Lightning Complex (from August 2020). The largest was 7 acres but was well inside the burn. Social media was hotter than the fires.

Out of state fire crews have been dispatched to SoCal in anticipation of warm wind events in the forecast. And...the governor is cutting hand crews. Makes sense.


----------



## TBS

2dogs said:


> At least four fires have been reported in the CZU Lightning Complex (from August 2020). The largest was 7 acres but was well inside the burn. Social media was hotter than the fires.
> 
> Out of state fire crews have been dispatched to SoCal in anticipation of warm wind events in the forecast. And...the governor is cutting hand crews. Makes sense.



The creek fire popped back up in a few spots today. Cutting inmate hand crews and hiring contract crews, we've contract prevention crews staying in Auberry at the old mill and bio mass plant site. I didn't catch the company name but they had some nice 661s on their truck.


----------



## sbhooper

I read where they think there was a fire started by embers still burning from ten months ago. Bad year, no personnel and now the damned old fires are adding to it. Dogs and cats sleeping together........


----------



## Drptrch

sbhooper said:


> I read where they think there was a fire started by embers still burning from ten months ago. Bad year, no personnel and now the damned old fires are adding to it. Dogs and cats sleeping together........



Easily done out here in the west with thick duff layers and large root systems where not enough melting snow pack or rainfall amounts saturates or penetrates deep enough to extinguish 
Big drought year and minimal lasting snow out here 
The dead and down 100/1000 hour fuels and brush component is more receptive than the flashy fuels in some parts 


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## Drptrch

sbhooper said:


> I read where they think there was a fire started by embers still burning from ten months ago. Bad year, no personnel and now the damned old fires are adding to it. Dogs and cats sleeping together........



Easily done out here in the west with thick duff layers and large root systems where not enough melting snow pack or rainfall amounts saturates or penetrates deep enough to extinguish 
Big drought year and minimal lasting snow out here 
The dead and down 100/1000 hour fuels and brush component is more receptive than the flashy fuels in some parts 


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## TBS

Yep, they can hang around in deep duff and logs for a long time, sometimes even smolder for months under the snow. I think one time Yosemite had one burn for a couple of years in the 90s, the rosasco fire in the stanislaus national forest has been going since 2014 creeping around in buried woody materials.


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## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Yep, they can hang around in deep duff and logs for a long time, sometimes even smolder for months under the snow. I think one time Yosemite had one burn for a couple of years in the 90s, the rosasco fire in the stanislaus national forest has been going since 2014 creeping around in buried woody materials.



Yep. Forgot about that place. Wandered around in there in the latter part of for the Rim fire in ‘13. Area was cooked. Was caravanning with and doing medical for 2 weeks for 2 Hazard falling mods. Had lunch there on way down from Cherry lake. 


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## TBS

The creek fire has popped up this morning.
Go through the time lapse.




__





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## 2dogs

Our area, at least my little 500 acre microclimate, went from HOT last week to rain the last couple days. If any of you were in Boy Scouts you may have heard of Order of the Arrow. Friday was Vigil Ordeal, all the candidates were soaked by morning. Rain or drizzle is really good news for us.


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## 2dogs

Last Friday while working with Cal Fire I was told the camp may change to 10 person crews from 16 person crews. Our camp will go from two crews to three crews. This way the governor can say he is increasing the number of crews. Ridiculous. Newson is dumping money into Cal Fire to try to head off the recall. It might work.

I read somewhere years ago that an Indian once said "only a white man would cut a foot off the top of a blanket and sew it on the bottom and say he has a longer blanket".


----------



## Drptrch

New Iron )







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## Drptrch

New Iron )






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## TBS

Had a little excitement at work yesterday at one of our day use trail access areas.


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## 2dogs

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Had a little excitement at work yesterday at one of our day use trail access areas.View attachment 911601
> View attachment 911602
> View attachment 911603


Dude please turn the water faucet on! That place needs more water.


----------



## sbhooper

The whole west needs more. Utah and Nevada are **** shows, as well as Az and always Kommifornicator. My kid just got done with a14 and is back in Boise til Tuesday. Not much rest ahead. Bad years.


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## TBS

2dogs said:


> Dude please turn the water faucet on! That place needs more water.


There real potential that we may reach the dreaded lake level known only as Deadpool.


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## TBS

Well the new mill in Auberry is burning. Both log decks, equipment, and milled lumber.


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## Blue Oaks

Dang.


----------



## TBS

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang.


Yep, they were running the mill and something sparked into the dust pile. It was a large portable mill, The guy was just getting the business up and running too and got a grant from the USDA to build a permanent mill. I drove by there early yesterday and saw where his equipment was between the log decks. Those log were well seasoned because they have been there for 5 years.


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## 2dogs

Last week the hand crew accidentally started a fire by saw exhaust. They were bucking a punky madrone log that had been dropped a few days prior and was laying, fortunately, in a fairly cool redwood grove. Not wanting to cause a ruckus the sawyer drained his camelbak and sent an inmate to the crew bus to fetch a 5 gallon back pump, which had to be filled from the drinking water tank. I was 30' away but I didn't know what was going on, once i found out I grabbed a pressurized water extinguisher from my back seat and helped out. No real fire broke out and you are the only people I have told so keep it quiet.

BTW I carry two dry chemical fire extinguishers, a pressurized water (with dish soap in the water), a 5 gallon back pump or sometimes two, and hand tools. Our property is all slope. Any fire would get a running start before it reached the buildings.


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## sbhooper

2dogs said:


> Last week the hand crew accidentally started a fire by saw exhaust. They were bucking a punky madrone log that had been dropped a few days prior and was laying, fortunately, in a fairly cool redwood grove. Not wanting to cause a ruckus the sawyer drained his camelbak and sent an inmate to the crew bus to fetch a 5 gallon back pump, which had to be filled from the drinking water tank. I was 30' away but I didn't know what was going on, once i found out I grabbed a pressurized water extinguisher from my back seat and helped out. No real fire broke out and you are the only people I have told so keep it quiet.
> 
> BTW I carry two dry chemical fire extinguishers, a pressurized water (with dish soap in the water), a 5 gallon back pump or sometimes two, and hand tools. Our property is all slope. Any fire would get a running start before it reached the buildings.


Yep. Sparks are not the only issue. I burn some bark once in a while just with the exhaust heat. It is enough heat to cause real dry stuff to ignite.


----------



## BC_Logger

Hope I'm posting this in the correct spot haven't been around for some time and there's been some changes 

Looking for a new fire pump and have three to choose from 

Honda wh15. 
Honda wh20 
BE Pressure HPFC-2065HR 

kinda leaning towards the BE due to the more flow and pressure 

any insight or recommendations would be appreciated 

Thanks


----------



## TBS

The lava fire is kicking some butt. 





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org





I have some questions for you guys who do this wildland fire thing for a living.
I've been watching this unfold since it broke initial containment. it was declared contained at 15:30? On the 24th and crossed the line at 9 or 10 pm that night with single tree torching observed through out the night. They had couple helicopters come in around 9 in the morning and by that time were getting some spot fires but kept up with them until things started to heat up more. At 10 things were starting to get real active, the two tankers were sitting at Redding available at that time but didn't get called until after noon some time.

If there is a wilderness issue how long does it take usually to get approval to use retardant in wilderness and if not why wait so long to get extra aircraft that were available? I know there's various layers of bureaucracy go through before that can happen and not every forest in California has the excellent mutual aid relationship that the sierra has with it's neighboring Calfire units.


----------



## Cfaller

BC_Logger said:


> Hope I'm posting this in the correct spot haven't been around for some time and there's been some changes
> 
> Looking for a new fire pump and have three to choose from
> 
> Honda wh15.
> Honda wh20
> BE Pressure HPFC-2065HR
> 
> kinda leaning towards the BE due to the more flow and pressure
> 
> any insight or recommendations would be appreciated
> 
> Thanks


I would go with the BE pump because pressure is king with this style pump in the wildland world.


----------



## 2dogs

The Lava Fire ran 8 miles yesterday!


----------



## RandyMac

Bwildered said:


> I only suck **** for money





2dogs said:


> The Lava Fire ran 8 miles yesterday!


That one is an hour south, We got the smoke here, almost, the SW wind kept the smoke from getting us.
Front my backyard looking East






Front porch looking West and Norh


----------



## Biigg50

As if there’s not enough going on…

Officers shoot, kill man near pot farm in Lava Fire evacuation zone https://krcrtv.com/news/local/officers-shoot-kill-man-near-pot-farm-in-lava-fire-evacuation-zone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## RandyMac

****** hmongs


----------



## RandyMac

Tennant Fire is making a run.
it is NE of the Lava Fire.








GOES-West - Sector view: Pacific Southwest - GeoColor - NOAA / NESDIS / STAR


Near real-time publication of GOES-East and GOES-West images from NOAA/NESDIS/STAR




www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov


----------



## TBS

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sf...pology-Crews-had-left-before-the-16283086.php


----------



## TBS

Meanwhile south of shaver lake near my backyard.





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## 2dogs

TheBrushSlasher said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sf...pology-Crews-had-left-before-the-16283086.php


I think this story will hit the news a little later and add to Cal Fire's screw up list. Their response to last year's CZU Lightning contest is causing a public relations nightmare here in Santa Cruz.


----------



## slowp

Ruh roh. BC is getting fires sprouting up. One is heading to town. 
https://www.pentictonwesternnews.co...0B4IbG7WQpvYnN51fxlsKIG7c-ZmId2f9Ss8DSYEdBNPg


----------



## TBS




----------



## sbhooper

My kid is en route to the Lava Fire. They just left the Moab area. This is going to be a crazy season.


----------



## Dave Hadden

slowp said:


> Ruh roh. BC is getting fires sprouting up. One is heading to town.
> https://www.pentictonwesternnews.co...0B4IbG7WQpvYnN51fxlsKIG7c-ZmId2f9Ss8DSYEdBNPg



Lytton in the Fraser Canyon, often the hottest spot in Canada was basically wiped out the past 24 hours.
Set hottest temps ever records four days in a row with the last being 49.6 C or 121.3 F. Here's a photo comparison of before and after.
Top photo is what it looks like today and bottom is what it looked like before.
Wiped out most infrastructure, the RCMP station, BC Hydro, Cel towers, the railroad and most of the buildings in the village.
Last I heard there were a few people missing and two confirmed dead.
Over 1,000 people evacuated in all directions so may take some time to locate everyone.
Bad situation.





Take care.


----------



## grizz55chev

Dave Hadden said:


> Lytton in the Fraser Canyon, often the hottest spot in Canada was basically wiped out the past 24 hours.
> Set hottest temps ever records four days in a row with the last being 49.6 C or 121.3 F. Here's a photo comparison of before and after.
> Top photo is what it looks like today and bottom is what it looked like before.
> Wiped out most infrastructure, the RCMP station, BC Hydro, Cel towers, the railroad and most of the buildings in the village.
> Last I heard there were a few people missing and two confirmed dead.
> Over 1,000 people evacuated in all directions so may take some time to locate everyone.
> Bad situation.
> View attachment 916167
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take care.


Sounds really bad, Dave, hope they get it controlled soon!


----------



## Hddnis

Snake River Complex is burning through where I used to live.
I'll have to make some calls in the morning and see what's going on. 
That's the third time in about ten years that has burned, but in the past they stopped it before it got into the trees. I have heard that this time it's in the trees.


----------



## sbhooper

Bad stuff out west-everywhere. My kid just left the Beckwourth Complex fire in California, for R and R after 14 days straight. They have not been able to do much with it, but I think parts are getting better. I read a bit from a guy that has been in the fire service in one form, or another, for 60 years. He said that he had never seen any fire conditions like they are this year. Lots of fire season left yet.


----------



## slowp

Fires to the west and east of here. The section of hwy 20 that goes through the Nort' Cascades is closed. Hwy 155 to the east is closed and the tiny town of Nespelem evacuated last night. These are lightning caused fires.


----------



## Hddnis

__





Snake River Complex Information - InciWeb the Incident Information System


for Snake River Complex




inciweb.nwcg.gov





This is the fire that burned through my old stomping grounds. 
It's kind of a miracle they didn't lose a bunch of homes, most people up there don't do much of anything to prepare for fire, they just live in the woods and hope for the best.
Looks like they used the old fire lines and then took advantage of a east wind to backfire down the line to the south creating a huge swath of black to stop the fire running uphill into the houses in the Glen and above Redbird Rd.
A lot of that ground it steep. I've hiked it a few times and it really is a technical climb in many areas. It's also hot on the South faces, and the wind never stops blowing, ever. When I lived up there I was out on a barren point and the weather station recorded winds in excess of 90mph more than once. If it was screwed to the earth it blew away.

Anyway, it isn't out yet and I know they are slogging through it. Looks like almost 400 people working it now. I know there are a couple hundred more private people working it too, several of the contractors and ranchers in the valley sent water trucks and cats up there.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Hard to believe 400 people can make much of a difference on a 100,000 acre fire. But, I would assume they're doing structure defense and that can go a long way.


----------



## Hddnis

Probably at least 600 total when you count the local people helping out. Been a pretty good team effort from what I'm hearing.
I think there were also up to 6 fixed wing aircraft, including an MD-87 
Plus a few more rotary wing.

Considering all the other fires going right now it was a pretty massive effort. Saved a lot of homes and outbuildings, cabins, a few businesses.


----------



## TBS

I sure hope markleeville has some homes and cabins left after this because they are right in the middle of the tamarack fire.









NV-HTF-Tamarack???


Tamarack fire started on 07/04/21 and has been in monitor status since. Yesterday it started showing more smoke, and today has now taken off. Fire is partially in the wilderness. Also it is NV-HTF but is located in Cal…




forums.wildfireintel.org









__





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## TBS




----------



## Drptrch

sbhooper said:


> Bad stuff out west-everywhere. My kid just left the Beckwourth Complex fire in California, for R and R after 14 days straight. They have not been able to do much with it, but I think parts are getting better. I read a bit from a guy that has been in the fire service in one form, or another, for 60 years. He said that he had never seen any fire conditions like they are this year. Lots of fire season left yet.



0730 on the Beckwourth 7/15















Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## slowp

Let me see, fire to the east, fire to the west and one to the north. Smoke wasn't bad when I got up but now is getting worse. I blame Canada for that. They had a fire "explode" about 50 miles north of us and that's where the wind is blowing from. I do think that the fire to the east is pretty well knocked down but haven't heard much about it. No mushroom clouds to see that way. 

The little community of Mazama, in Warshington the state, (don't move here) is evacuated and the evacuations move on east as the fire burns that way. Heard it was spotting a half mile ahead last night. In case anybody was going to do the touristy thing of driving the N. Cascades Highway, it has been closed for a week due to the fires. 

I could see the top of the mushroom cloud that is the Cub Cr. fire from the Safeway parking lot yesterday afternoon. Guess it blew up. It is to the north of Winthrop, in Warshington the state (don't move here) and also has kicked a few people and mules out of their homes. The mules are the USFS pack string. 

Today ought to be fine and miserable for fire people out on the lines. A friend and I both are glad we don't do that anymore. Very glad.


----------



## sbhooper

slowp said:


> Let me see, fire to the east, fire to the west and one to the north. Smoke wasn't bad when I got up but now is getting worse. I blame Canada for that. They had a fire "explode" about 50 miles north of us and that's where the wind is blowing from. I do think that the fire to the east is pretty well knocked down but haven't heard much about it. No mushroom clouds to see that way.
> 
> The little community of Mazama, in Warshington the state, (don't move here) is evacuated and the evacuations move on east as the fire burns that way. Heard it was spotting a half mile ahead last night. In case anybody was going to do the touristy thing of driving the N. Cascades Highway, it has been closed for a week due to the fires.
> 
> I could see the top of the mushroom cloud that is the Cub Cr. fire from the Safeway parking lot yesterday afternoon. Guess it blew up. It is to the north of Winthrop, in Warshington the state (don't move here) and also has kicked a few people and mules out of their homes. The mules are the USFS pack string.
> 
> Today ought to be fine and miserable for fire people out on the lines. A friend and I both are glad we don't do that anymore. Very glad.


It is a tough way to make a living, but my kid loves it. Kind of like being back in combat, without the bullets.


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> Let me see, fire to the east, fire to the west and one to the north. Smoke wasn't bad when I got up but now is getting worse. I blame Canada for that. They had a fire "explode" about 50 miles north of us and that's where the wind is blowing from. I do think that the fire to the east is pretty well knocked down but haven't heard much about it. No mushroom clouds to see that way.
> 
> The little community of Mazama, in Warshington the state, (don't move here) is evacuated and the evacuations move on east as the fire burns that way. Heard it was spotting a half mile ahead last night. In case anybody was going to do the touristy thing of driving the N. Cascades Highway, it has been closed for a week due to the fires.
> 
> I could see the top of the mushroom cloud that is the Cub Cr. fire from the Safeway parking lot yesterday afternoon. Guess it blew up. It is to the north of Winthrop, in Warshington the state (don't move here) and also has kicked a few people and mules out of their homes. The mules are the USFS pack string.
> 
> Today ought to be fine and miserable for fire people out on the lines. A friend and I both are glad we don't do that anymore. Very glad.


Patty I just read the California wildfire smoke has reached New York. Governor Newsom will be taxing all New Yorkers who inhale our smoke.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Dang. I really like Markleeville.


----------



## TBS

2dogs said:


> Patty I just read the California wildfire smoke has reached New York. Governor Newsom will be taxing all New Yorkers who inhale our smoke.


Cuomo has already signed the bill and is purposing new legislation for a tax to combat smoke from California.


----------



## grizz55chev

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang. I really like Markleeville.


What's the damage to the town so far?


----------



## slowp

The good news is that the wind came up pretty good and blew the smoke out of the valley. The bad news is that the wind is blowing. The evacuations in the valley to the west of here are ongoing and are moving closer to the fake western town of Winthrop. It's still got a ways to go. The cross country ski resort of Sun Mountain $$$ is at a level two evacuation notice.

I'm thinking that the fires are too big to do much about. They'll get under control in September or October.


----------



## slowp

And just a bit to the nort of here...<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## slowp

This is where the Okanogan Valley becomes the Okanagan Valley. We share the lake too. I wonder if we were sharing the planes? Sometimes the fire equipment goes over the boundary both ways when times are desperate. It is all cleared beforehand.

Oh, this is also Canada's version of SoCal. I think it is the warmest place for them to live, in the summer. They have a lot of Spanish style houses. they also have an ice rink with hockey and curling available. Anyway, here are the little planes at work.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## Blue Oaks

grizz55chev said:


> What's the damage to the town so far?



I don't know. Not much news coming out, which is probably a good thing.


----------



## 2dogs

The obvious solution here is to fill the lake with slurry. Besides it would such a pretty red color.


----------



## Blue Oaks

My friend hauled ass up to Lake Almanor to grab his boat from his dad's house. The Dixie Fire is closing in. Fortunately, his dad's place is on the East shore of the lake, and the fire is coming from the West and heading mostly North it appears.


----------



## Hddnis

List of unstaffed fires around here is growing and already bigger than I remember seeing. 

Lots of fire have a long list of unfilled resource requests. Local airport has become a refueling hub and the air traffic is way up. Planes and helicopters of all sizes coming and going all day long. Sometimes in strings of three, sometimes single.

The farmers are tilling the wheat stubble right in, trying to create big fire breaks. The thinking is the soil they lose to wind won't be missed if a fire starts and the wind picks up.


----------



## slowp

This made me smile. Back in the dark ages, I went on a crew to somewhere in SoCal. Don't know where, exactly. I think we were looking down at the lights of Camp Pendleton one night while spiked out. Anyway, when we were in camp, the loudspeaker would come on and holler out for crews. We were Okanogan 3. The announcer could not read well and changed it to Oklahoma 3. Now we will have and Oklahoma crew coming to the Okanogan area. I hope it isn't too confusing for them. Plus there is the Canadian spelling to contend with--they use an A as in Okanagan. 

The Canadian fire may become an international fire. 

Northeast Washington Interagency Incident Management Team​34m ·​Thursday morning update on Nk'Mip fire in Oroville, WA.​Oroville, WA – The Nk’Mip Creek Fire started Monday, July 19, 2021 near Inkaneep Road within the Osoyoos Indian Band jurisdiction on First Nationals Tribal Grounds in Canada. The fire spread quickly due to low relative humidity and unseasonably dry conditions. The fire is currently on the Canadian side of the border and within proximity of the United States border. Due to the threat to the U.S., Northeast Washington Interagency Type 3 IMT Team 2 were stood up as of 7:00 am on July 21st and are now in Oroville, Washington. Local fire jurisdictions, Border Patrol, Port Authority, Okanogan Sheriff’s Office, Customs and Canadian Incident Command fire resources are all collaborating to put a solid plan in place if the fire was to cross the border.​With updated mapping, the fire is more accurately estimated at 4,942 acres and growing. The level 1 evacuation order continues to stand in place for the 9 Mile Ranch Development in Molson/Chesaw community on the U.S. side of the border. For current evacuation orders please see Okanogan County Department of Emergency Management, @Okanogan.County.Emergency.Management, Facebook page.​Today, Division Alpha will work to establish a contingency line with dozers in areas where there is high probability of success and ensure that firefighters exposures are equal with expected benefits. They will also scout possible dozer lines should the fires position change in the coming days. Currently, we have additional firefighters in route from Utah and Oklahoma with their arrival scheduled for tonight and tomorrow.​The weather today calls for hazy skies as we continue to see smoke from the Methow Valley fires with thick smoke being pushed south of Oroville. We are looking at a high of 86 degrees Fahrenheit with a relative humidity of 11% and winds from the Northwest at 6 to 11 mph in the morning and then transitioning to a westwardly wind of 3 to 6 mph in the afternoon. Overnight the minimum temperature is expected to be 56 degrees Fahrenheit with a relative humidity of 43%. This will allow for poor humidity recovery as the winds begin blowing from a north/northwest position at 3 to 6 mph by 1900 PDT.​Fire information and the incident Command Post is located at Oroville High School in Oroville, WA. Fire information contact: Don Malone at (509) 822-8125 or Starr Farrell at (509) 680-7002 or you can also follow us on Facebook @NEWIMT3​


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> My friend hauled ass up to Lake Almanor to grab his boat from his dad's house. The Dixie Fire is closing in. Fortunately, his dad's place is on the East shore of the lake, and the fire is coming from the West and heading mostly North it appears.





https://ftp.wildfire.gov/public/incident_specific_data/calif_n/!CALFIRE/!2021_Incidents/CA-BTU-009205_Dixie/GIS/Products/20210723/OPS_X_Arch_E_port_20210723_0141_Dixie_CABTU009205_0723day.pdf




Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> I don't know. Not much news coming out, which is probably a good thing.





https://ftp.wildfire.gov/public/incident_specific_data/calif_n/!CALFIRE/!2021_Incidents/CA-BTU-009205_Dixie/GIS/Products/20210723/OPS_X_Arch_E_port_20210723_0141_Dixie_CABTU009205_0723day.pdf



Chewing’ away, making hard push at Quincy now. 
Spotted over Hwy 70 yesterday and took off 







Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## trains

Stay safe mate, know what fires are like, hope the wind changes, and you can save assets.


----------



## RandyMac

ok, I do have an odd sense of humor, this made me laugh, almost spilled my coffee
This is real time, so hit it quick, set the video at 3 or more hours





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## TBS

RandyMac said:


> ok, I do have an odd sense of humor, this made me laugh, almost spilled my coffee
> This is real time, so hit it quick, set the video at 3 or more hours
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALERT Wildfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## atpchas

Where there's smoke, there's fire:





Oregon Smothered with Smoke


Hot, dry, and windy conditions continue to fan the flames of the largest fire currently burning in the United States.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov









Smoke Across North America


Skies turned hazy from Pittsburgh to Washington to Boston, as smoke from fires in Canada poured into the U.S. Northeast.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## slowp

atpchas said:


> Where there's smoke, there's fire:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oregon Smothered with Smoke
> 
> 
> Hot, dry, and windy conditions continue to fan the flames of the largest fire currently burning in the United States.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earthobservatory.nasa.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smoke Across North America
> 
> 
> Skies turned hazy from Pittsburgh to Washington to Boston, as smoke from fires in Canada poured into the U.S. Northeast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earthobservatory.nasa.gov


The Demon Dog and I are going to be Climate Change refugees and head to the west side to camp on the edge of a hay field. We've been living for a week in Unhealthy air and it ain't getting any better. We leave tomorrow. 

Canada just got 100 firefighters from Mexico who will be working to the north of here. The major smoke makers are to the west in the Methow Valley area. Those fires just keep growing. The end is not in sight.


----------



## Drptrch

TheBrushSlasher said:


>




We were down in and around Indian Falls on the 24th for that until dawn. Quite the burn, and unfortunately Indian Falls took a hit on that one, but there were some saves 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Hddnis

I've been seeing a trend by city departments in California to let small grass fires burn if conditions are favorable and exposure risk is minimal 
Used to be they rolled up on a median or exit ramp grass fire and just hit it with some water and put it out. Now they are letting it burn and even lighting the rest of it to get it all burned off faster. They roll plenty of units to keep it under control.

I don't know if this new, it's at least new to me. I've only seen it in California so far.
It is a good idea, it won't burn again this season, if you get a firestorm later it offers a safety zone and could even slow the fire.

I have not asked the municipal firemen I know about it yet. Next time I travel down there I'll see what they say about it. I asked my uncle about it, he's retired cal fire, he said it was new to him, but he'd seen it too in the So. Cal area.


----------



## 2dogs

I was working a grade project yesterday when the two Cal Fire hand crews received a dispatch to the Dixie Fire. I'm scheduled to work with them all next week but I doubt that will happen as they were sent as a strike team. I need to finish my part of the project by December 31st. I'm worried.


----------



## TBS

Hddnis said:


> I've been seeing a trend by city departments in California to let small grass fires burn if conditions are favorable and exposure risk is minimal
> Used to be they rolled up on a median or exit ramp grass fire and just hit it with some water and put it out. Now they are letting it burn and even lighting the rest of it to get it all burned off faster. They roll plenty of units to keep it under control.
> 
> I don't know if this new, it's at least new to me. I've only seen it in California so far.
> It is a good idea, it won't burn again this season, if you get a firestorm later it offers a safety zone and could even slow the fire.
> 
> I have not asked the municipal firemen I know about it yet. Next time I travel down there I'll see what they say about it. I asked my uncle about it, he's retired cal fire, he said it was new to him, but he'd seen it too in the So. Cal area.


Seen it plenty of times around Fresno where smoke doesn't affect residents to much. We had a fire in a county flood control area and a crew burned off the access road while engines kept an eye on the homes until they went to put out the hotspots.


----------



## atpchas

Once rare, wildfire smoke now spawning increasingly common thunderstorms.





A Summer of Fire-Breathing Smoke Storms


For decades, scientists have been tracking extreme thunderstorms created by wildfires. However, the ferocity of the storms that have popped up in Canada in 2021 has surprised them.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## slowp

I just returned home from a place where the air was clear. 

When I left, it was unhealthy here, now it is worse. Leaving day, the rating was 148. Today it is 259. Low scores are good. Bah.


----------



## TBS

Dixie fire Situation normal, all ****ed up.
Dennis burns fire behavior analyst summed up the expected situation that was coming yesterday with the weather change with "we hope everything holds"...West zone(Calfire) fire jumped a mile out of mopped up containment lines and is now threatening Chester, the east zone blew out past round valley reservoir and is on the north side of Greenville heading east.
Thermal imaging cameras on dyer mountain east of lake almanor looking west.


AlertCalifornia - Dixie Fire


----------



## madhatte

Not sure what the deal is but this thread won't let me post to the last page -- for days I didn't know how to fix it but I just discovered that I can go to the first page and let the new post get bumped to the end. Is anybody else having this problem?


----------



## grizz55chev

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Dixie fire Situation normal, all ****ed up.
> Dennis burns fire behavior analyst summed up the expect situation that was coming yesterday with the weather change with "we hope everything holds"...West zone(Calfire) fire jumped a mile out of mopped up containment lines and is now threatening Chester, the east zone blew out past round valley reservoir and is on the north side of Greenville heading east.
> Thermal imaging cameras on dyer mountain east of lake almanor looking west.
> 
> 
> AlertCalifornia - Dixie Fire


Not good!


----------



## TBS

madhatte said:


> Not sure what the deal is but this thread won't let me post to the last page -- for days I didn't know how to fix it but I just discovered that I can go to the first page and let the new post get bumped to the end. Is anybody else having this problem?


I had that issue yesterday.


----------



## RandyMac

This is from yesterday, before sunset


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## madhatte

Looks like Greenville got hit hard today. Can't find a good news article with details yet; IC probably hasn't released much via PAO. I expect the morning will bring a full brief.


----------



## Drptrch

Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Looks like Greenville got hit hard today. Can't find a good news article with details yet; IC probably hasn't released much via PAO. I expect the morning will bring a full brief.



It got blasted unfortunately 




Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

And Colfax off of 80 today






Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> It got blasted unfortunately
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see







Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Looks like Greenville got hit hard today. Can't find a good news article with details yet; IC probably hasn't released much via PAO. I expect the morning will bring a full brief.











Town of Greenville Completely Devastated by Dixie Fire


The flames of the Dixie Fire grew intense Wednesday as it continued to move through Plumas County, with the fire completely devastating the town of Greenville.




activenorcal.com






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----------



## Gologit

Greenville was a beautiful town with buildings dating back to the gold rush days and a history of logging. Sad to see it go.

I'm wondering about Collins Pine. They own a lot of timber ground on the west side of Almanor and in that general area. They're one of the best examples of sustainable yield logging still around.


----------



## grizz55chev

Drptrch said:


> And Colfax off of 80 today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


My old home town, graduated from Clofax high, go Falcons! Lotta my old classmates in imminent danger!


----------



## madhatte

It's freaking grim out there


----------



## slowp

My happy places to camp have been evacuated. Fingers are crossed, and toes because the FS has actually done a lot of fire mitigation work in one of the areas. The private land, not so much.


----------



## RandyMac

I knew that country well, had a squeeze in Westwood, fished, logged and fought fire in the area.
What we are seeing today, was discussed in the 1970s after that drought had us fighting fires in February. (Pecwan)
There is a real chance, if conditions remain the same for 3-5 years, from the Front Range to the Pacific will be burnt off.

This guy, while very nerdy, (looking at you Nate) lays out the details quite well and deserves more traffic.


----------



## Drptrch

RandyMac said:


> I knew that country well, had a squeeze in Westwood, fished, logged and fought fire in the area.
> What we are seeing today, was discussed in the 1970s after that drought had us fighting fires in February. (Pecwan)
> There is a real chance, if conditions remain the same for 3-5 years, from the Front Range to the Pacific will be burnt off.
> 
> This guy, while very nerdy, (looking at you Nate) lays out the details quite well and deserves more traffic.








Which one ? [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> It's freaking grim out there







__





Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com




Greenville proper


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----------



## madhatte

RandyMac said:


> (looking at you Nate)


Me? Nerdy? WHY I NEVER

Also: holy cow, that guy is legit


----------



## RandyMac

madhatte said:


> Me? Nerdy? WHY I NEVER
> 
> Also: holy cow, that guy is legit


I thought you might appreciate the level of detail.


----------



## Hddnis




----------



## Hddnis




----------



## madhatte

RandyMac said:


> I thought you might appreciate the level of detail.


Very much so. His narration is clean, precise, accurate, and timely. I want to see more of this kind of expert journalism.


----------



## RandyMac

madhatte said:


> Very much so. His narration is clean, precise, accurate, and timely. I want to see more of this kind of expert journalism.


It takes time to find, I currently have that time, I do what I can. I have run aground, however structural repairs are scheduled soon.


----------



## slowp

Went for a bike ride and took a picture of this indicator of fire season severity. I'd say there is about a third of their inventory here. We have a bit to go yet. 


I think this is the Muckamuck fire unless another one started up. It's rained a bit in some places but here in the valley it is just overcast, cool and the air is not smoky. 


Watched all three of these take off. They were headed east to the Colville Reservation. Those folks have been hammered by fires this summer


----------



## madhatte

Oh goody, another heat wave coming up.


----------



## RandyMac

yep, 100s through to the weekend, forecast changes hourly, it isn't as hot or for as long, as guessed at earlier


----------



## RandyMac




----------



## Blue Oaks

Thanks for the link. My buddy's dad's place is on the east shore, up towards where it bends around to form the peninsula.


----------



## RandyMac

I have found these sites useful









GOES-West - Sector view: Pacific Southwest - GeoColor - NOAA / NESDIS / STAR


Near real-time publication of GOES-East and GOES-West images from NOAA/NESDIS/STAR




www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov










ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## 2dogs

Ban the terms "deep dive" and "dig deeper".


----------



## RandyMac

Next up...








Glen, Yuba County


Glen, Meadow Lane and Willow Glen Road, 5 miles northwest of Dobbins in Yuba County. Minimal fire behavior with creeping and smoldering observed. August 19, 2021 at 8:20 PM The fire is now in patro…




yubanet.com


----------



## madhatte

A column popped up north of Mt Rainier this afternoon and we're not sure how alarmed to be by it. No news from other agencies so it may be that the Schneider Springs fire near Cle Elum blew up but Not sure yet.


----------



## Hddnis

Had one start and get big about 17 miles from here. Reached 600 acres in four hours. Pretty big cloud over that thing. Got a friend in the path of it, he's out of power so we got a generator to him, that will keep his well going for his livestock. He has a pond near his house and a gas pump. Area around the house is fields and pretty clear and they keep the yard watered. He'll be pushing back the stubble tonight with the cat and laying out his hoses. Hopefully they stop it tonight when it gets to the flat ground and reaches the fire lines the farmers have been plowing all afternoon.

Another friend heading up to help him with a water truck. That truck just left another fire south of town. No rest till it rains.


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> Thanks for the link. My buddy's dad's place is on the east shore, up towards where it bends around to form the peninsula.








ArcGIS Web Application







www.arcgis.com










ArcGIS Web Application







www.arcgis.com






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----------



## Drptrch

Dyer Mtn lookout above Lake Almonar 
Pretty much cut dozer freeway from top to lake 
Good firing operation on south side. Holding so far 















iCloud


Sign in to iCloud to access your photos, videos, documents, notes, contacts, and more. Use your Apple ID or create a new account to start using Apple services.




share.icloud.com






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----------



## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Dyer Mtn lookout above Lake Almonar
> Pretty much cut dozer freeway from top to lake
> Good firing operation on south side. Holding so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iCloud
> 
> 
> Sign in to iCloud to access your photos, videos, documents, notes, contacts, and more. Use your Apple ID or create a new account to start using Apple services.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> share.icloud.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



Live cam from Dyer 






ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org






Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## madhatte

Unsurprising that they're being super proactive protecting that tower after losing the Harkness tower over the weekend. It would be a very unpopular move not to.


----------



## Drptrch

madhatte said:


> Unsurprising that they're being super proactive protecting that tower after losing the Harkness tower over the weekend. It would be a very unpopular move not to.



I think Harkness surprised them

Huge norther movement that dat 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## madhatte

Drptrch said:


> I think Harkness surprised them


For sure, and I can't imagine anybody in an IC role being in the mood for any more surprises.


----------



## mountainguyed67

TheBrushSlasher said:


> We've got a new fire near the town of big creek in the creek near camp Sierra.



I didn’t know about this thread until now, I took this picture September 5th at Cutt’s Meadow. I was there for High Sierra 4WD Poker Run. 




The fire got within about three miles of my mountain place. I thought for sure it was going to overrun the place, but stalled five miles short after running twelve miles that day.


----------



## mountainguyed67

TheBrushSlasher said:


> Meanwhile south of shaver lake near my backyard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALERT Wildfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alertwildfire.org



This was taken at 9:30 the same day one driveway down from my mountain place, was about 2-1/2 miles away. Our area was evacuated.


----------



## RandyMac

madhatte said:


> For sure, and I can't imagine anybody in an IC role being in the mood for any more surprises.


Dixie has outgunned two Management teams and has 25% of the Nation's firefighting resources occupied.
How many Dixies can they fight at one time?


----------



## slowp

The big 737 air tanker was circling overhead. Apparently the Muckamuck fire is making a run for Conconully, which is a tiny touristy old mining town with a lake and state park. Conconully has been evacuated. Conconully is 16 miles away, but at a higher, more forested elevation. 

The smoke cleared this afternoon and the fires are making runs for more ground.


----------



## RandyMac

Our smoke is moving off and will mean a busy day for firefighters.








GOES-West - Sector view: Pacific Southwest - GeoColor - NOAA / NESDIS / STAR


Near real-time publication of GOES-East and GOES-West images from NOAA/NESDIS/STAR




www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov




Dixie has bent CalFire over the barrel soo many times that they are well acquainted with the toes of their boots.


----------



## slowp

Conconully survived the night. The local fire departments were there overnight and did a burnout One chicken coop was lost. Now I worry because I read where a California team will take it over. 


Went on a bike ride today because it was less smoky. Saw this parked at the fire camp. Note the word...*parked*.


----------



## RandyMac

Dixie has gone insane.
There are some new fires as well, SW of Tahoe there is an energetic fire making a run.








GOES-West - Sector view: Pacific Southwest - GeoColor - NOAA / NESDIS / STAR


Near real-time publication of GOES-East and GOES-West images from NOAA/NESDIS/STAR




www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov


----------



## RandyMac

Caldor





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## Blue Oaks

Well, for about the fourth time in the history of the Dixie Fire I'm now thinking the eastern shore will be saved. Seems like the wind shift blew the fire back into the black a bit. 

It'll be interesting to see if they'll get a handle on the Caldor Fire before the winds shift back and blow that sucker all the way around Tahoe.


----------



## Hddnis

Looks like the Caldor fire has a hard on for Tahoe. If the wind forecast for the next few days holds I don't think they'll stop it. They are trying nighttime helicopter flights, I think it's just one helicopter right now. 
Pictures and video of fire activity today looked really aggressive, fast runs, crowning, spotting a mile ahead.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Tahoe is going to be a complete disaster over the next week.


----------



## Blue Oaks

If the wind holds, it might just skirt south of the bulk of the housing at the lake.


----------



## atpchas

Satellite photos of west coast fires





Arc of Fires in the U.S. West


The Caldor fire, nearing the south end of Lake Tahoe, is one of many potent fires still burning at the end of August 2021.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Drptrch

Dixie pushing 900,000 acres 
Latest IR on Google earth

Google Earth Link
https://earth.app.goo.gl/DAAGiH #googleearth with Divisions
And just overlay with borders 

Google Earth Link
https://earth.app.goo.gl/V9FgWa #googleearth

What a beast !!

Pushing into the Beckwourth fire on the Southeast and hopefully doesn’t squeeze south 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## mountainguyed67




----------



## RandyMac

CalTopo - Backcountry Mapping Evolved


----------



## Hddnis

I tend to think of the fires in terms of what I see on the ground.
This takes a look at how the fires are being used for political manipulation.








Experts: Lack of Forest Management Not Climate Change Cause Wildfires


The wildfires raging in the western U.S. are not caused by climate change but by "eco-imperialists" who oppose forest management.




www.breitbart.com


----------



## mountainguyed67

This is true. Although dry an hot conditions also influence severity of fire, there couldn’t be much fire without fuel load. We’ve watched fuel loads build to crazy extremes over the decades, largely due to environmentalists filing lawsuits to stop fuel reduction projects.


----------



## TBS

Another old fire lookout with a camera burned over but Tobias peak lives on.


----------



## atpchas

Cough, cough...





Southern California Under Smoke


The KNP fire complex and Windy fire are threatening groves of giant sequoias and prompting authorities to issue evacuation orders.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## bfrazier

RandyMac said:


> Our smoke is moving off and will mean a busy day for firefighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GOES-West - Sector view: Pacific Southwest - GeoColor - NOAA / NESDIS / STAR
> 
> 
> Near real-time publication of GOES-East and GOES-West images from NOAA/NESDIS/STAR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dixie has bent CalFire over the barrel soo many times that they are well acquainted with the toes of their boots.


RandyMac - You were right - when you mentioned playing with saws I should have known. I wonder if there are more Kathryn Davidson Wildfire people here than just you and me? Maybe the BrushSlasher? 

Bob Frazier


----------



## TBS

bfrazier said:


> RandyMac - You were right - when you mentioned playing with saws I should have known. I wonder if there are more Kathryn Davidson Wildfire people here than just you and me? Maybe the BrushSlasher?
> 
> Bob Frazier


Not me, I gather my information from various online sites, maps, ect ect. When the opportunity presents itself I go observe the fire.


----------



## Drptrch

slowp said:


> Conconully survived the night. The local fire departments were there overnight and did a burnout One chicken coop was lost. Now I worry because I read where a California team will take it over.
> 
> View attachment 924554
> Went on a bike ride today because it was less smoky. Saw this parked at the fire camp. Note the word...*parked*.



Why that thought ? 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

Beware of Bear Urine 









FAWN FIRE: District Attorney provides details about woman arrested for arson


Fire investigators believe the woman arrested for starting the Fawn Fire may have started another fire in the City Of Shasta Lake the night before the Fawn Fire started. That's just one of the details revealed in the court documents filed by the Shasta County District Attorney Friday. Alexandra...




krcrtv.com






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----------



## Gologit

Drptrch said:


> Why that thought ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


Californians have a bad reputation in the fire community. Some of it is deserved, some is not.
There's also a strong anti-Californian bias among the regular citizens. Again, some of it is deserved and some is not.
It's just people, doing what they do.


----------



## Drptrch

Gologit said:


> Californians have a bad reputation in the fire community. Some of it is deserved, some is not.
> There's also a strong anti-Californian bias among the regular citizens. Again, some of it is deserved and some is not.
> It's just people, doing what they do.



All good thx . The Anti-California bias, I can totally understand 
Bad Rep in the fire community ?? as far as tactics, handling , work ethic, LG vs State vs Fed FF and how they are , thier wants , needs, or expectations ect ??

Guess I don’t fully understand without an example and not such a broad statement 

In no way slinging Ill will, just curious 

Feel free to PM if needed 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Gologit

Drptrch said:


> All good thx . The Anti-California bias, I can totally understand
> Bad Rep in the fire community ?? as far as tactics, handling , work ethic, LG vs State vs Fed FF and how they are , thier wants , needs, or expectations ect ??
> 
> Guess I don’t fully understand without an example and not such a broad statement
> 
> In no way slinging Ill will, just curious
> 
> Feel free to PM if needed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


I would have answered this sooner but I took a "temporary" job as truck boss for a small fleet of water tenders. I've been spending most of my time on the road from one fire to another.
The anti-Californian bias isn't something you need to worry about. You'll find it expressed mostly by lower echelon overhead that don't know any better. The more experienced overhead might feel the same bias but they tend to keep their mouth shut about it.
Again it's a case of a few bad apples from our corner of the world who, thinking that they were superior beings and therefore infallible, swaggered into one too many incidents, ran their mouth, and then couldn't back up what they said with experience or a plan of action.
You've been in this business long enough to know that a bad reputation is hard to shake. In a lot of cases, most cases probably, the anti-Californian bias isn't valid.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


----------



## Drptrch

Thx. Wasn’t going too. Yeah I can agree with that.
Just not into the “generalized statements” these days, too easy 

Hope all is well. Been a crazy busy year again for sure 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

The U.S. could learn much from how Japan manages its forests.


----------



## TBS

The north side of KNP complex decided it did not want to wait for crews to finish firing the generals highway.


And trying get creek fire like.



@Drptrch knows this place.





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## atpchas

Some scary California info.





What’s Behind California’s Surge of Large Fires?


Heat waves and droughts supercharged by climate change, a century of fire suppression, and fast-growing populations have made large, destructive fires more likely.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## TBS

TheBrushSlasher said:


> The north side of KNP complex decided it did not want to wait for crews to finish firing the generals highway.
> 
> 
> And trying get creek fire like.
> View attachment 933196
> 
> 
> @Drptrch knows this place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALERT Wildfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alertwildfire.org




This mornings update said they got 60 mph winds on that section of the fire.


----------



## TBS

Hope everyone recovers from this.








4 injured while fighting KNP Complex Fire released from hospital


Four fire personnel have been hospitalized while fighting the KNP Complex Fire inside the Sequoia National Forest.




www.google.com


----------



## Blue Oaks

Getting solid rain and snow in the central Sierra Nevada range right now. Still nothing in our neck of the woods.


----------



## mountainguyed67

Blue Oaks said:


> Getting solid rain and snow in the central Sierra Nevada range right now. Still nothing in our neck of the woods.



We got good rain here yesterday morning.

And this is Huntington Lake yesterday morning, 7,200 feet. Shaver is about 5,600 feet, and got rain.


----------



## Hddnis

We are on a thinning project right now and looking at snow over the next couple days. Last Friday I was rocking it in a short sleeve shirt and loving the mild fall weather. Now we'll be starting in the Morning and it's supposed to be about 22°


----------



## Blue Oaks

I'd hate to be the guy who had to explain this one.









Fire from prescribed burn in Santa Cruz Co. triggers evacuations


The Estrada Fire broke out when winds picked up Friday.




www.sfgate.com


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Blue Oaks said:


> I'd hate to be the guy who had to explain this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fire from prescribed burn in Santa Cruz Co. triggers evacuations
> 
> 
> The Estrada Fire broke out when winds picked up Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sfgate.com



If the lazy (anti-work ethic) bureaucrats in Washington, DC did mechanical clearing and thinning (like in Japan), there wouldn't be a need for prescribed burns.


----------



## Blue Oaks

There's no way to do that on the scale that's needed in the western US. Japan has hardly any forest compared to the US. It was a good day for a prescribed burn, it just got away from them.


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

Blue Oaks said:


> There's no way to do that on the scale that's needed in the western US. Japan has hardly any forest compared to the US. It was a good day for a prescribed burn, it just got away from them.


Not even with the removal of fuel with an army of volunteers from the local community? I can see where the public sector unions might object to honest work.


----------



## slowp

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> If the lazy (anti-work ethic) bureaucrats in Washington, DC did mechanical clearing and thinning (like in Japan), there wouldn't be a need for prescribed burns.


First of all, those folks are not trained in running machinery and doing forestry work. I assume you literally mean to have them out on the ground?

Secondly, there is NO one size fits all prescription for the forests. Just what would you do with all the slash generated by a large scale thinning project? It doesn't magically go away, and unless you are in favor of spending more taxpayer money, it isn't feasible to haul it off, after all you are talking about large scale which means those areas far from civilization and roads. Or having to reopen roads to get to those area which is not cheap. Leave slash on the ground on the dryer forests and it makes for good tinder in the next thunder storm or wind event. 

It isn't simple.


----------



## slowp

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Not even with the removal of fuel with an army of volunteers from the local community? I can see where the public sector unions might object to honest work.


Give it up. Your prejudice and disrespect for public workers is showing. 

When I first started, we evil gubmint workers did do precommercial thinning on a large scale. Then a certain anti-gubmint president came into power and stopped that. It was all to be contracted out and contracting actually cost more than having us do the work. It also started the race to the bottom. Contractors kept hiring a cheaper workforce, and one was even found to be keeping folks at work against their will. Local people were not hired, as was promised and were bid out of the contracts as they could not legitimately work for such a little amount of money. 

That's your honest work. The race to the bottom.


----------



## TBS

We could barely get enough competent volunteers to help with our parks earth day projects and got to the point where we just gave up on the idea. If you set up a volunteer project for bush removal its going to take awhile to get enough people for a project like that.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Well, fire season is over in my neck of the woods. We got some rain last night, and more is forecast for this week.


----------



## mountainguyed67

slowp said:


> I assume you literally mean to have them out on the ground?



I‘m sure he means “those folks” making it policy to get others to do it.


----------



## atpchas

Check out the smoke plume from the Alisal fire.




__





Alisal Fire Rages Near Santa Barbara


Chaparral shrublands and strong winds are fueling the fast-moving fire.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Hddnis

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Not even with the removal of fuel with an army of volunteers from the local community? I can see where the public sector unions might object to honest work.



I don't think you understand just how huge the forests are, or how expensive machines are. I do this work, for private people around their homes, and it is physically very hard work. We use mostly machines, just sitting in the seat wears you out because the ground is so steep. Then comes the days you have to hand cut, up and down the slopes you work, hanging on with your eyebrows so you can use two hands on the saw. At night you ache all over, but you get up and do it again the next day. 

If you can find volunteers to work this hard let me know, I'll bring popcorn and watch that.


----------



## slowp

I might volunteer if there was pie and cake available. I wouldn't last very long though. When i was a twenty something, it took a week to get a chainsaw fit body going. Now????? Probably a year or more. 

Have worked with volunteers on trails. By the time the ice breaking exercise is over, the safety rules discussed, equipment handed out and how to work it discussed, there isn't a whole lot of time left. Then there are people like me, who like to start early in the morning so as to get stuff done before it gets too hot, and we morning people are rare amongst the volunteers. 

The Backcountry Horsemen (and women) do get a lot done because they work amongst themselves and are a cohesive, trained group of folks. They can dispense with some of the formalities. Some of them have a lot of experience.


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> Well, fire season is over in my neck of the woods. We got some rain last night, and more is forecast for this week.



We’ll see 



https://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/predictive/outlooks/Outlook_NOps.pdf




Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Blue Oaks

Drptrch said:


> We’ll see
> 
> 
> 
> https://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/predictive/outlooks/Outlook_NOps.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



That was issued on 10/4. Do you think they will take into account the recent and upcoming rain in a new publication?


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> That was issued on 10/4. Do you think they will take into account the recent and upcoming rain in a new publication?



Yep. October and November have been typically dangerous fire months in California 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> That was issued on 10/4. Do you think they will take into account the recent and upcoming rain in a new publication?



A little pre-drizzle burn up Sonoma County way



















Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## slowp

There was a wildfire in the woods on Monday a bit south of here. Today, if the forecast is correct, there should be no more for the winter. 

I spent Thanksgiving, 1980something in SoCal on a large fire. Turkey sandwiches.


----------



## TBS

Adversarial Front Line Caused by Forest Service Ineptitude - Moonshine Ink


In a bold tell-all, a state firefighter blames the U.S. Forest Service’s mismanagement for “willful and intentional destruction” of California lands.




www.moonshineink.com


----------



## slowp

The Forest Service fire organization is not there to protect structures. That's well known. They have done so. Nor are employees supposed to risk their lives like urban departments. The author is a bit mixed up in expecting that. And yes, the FS is trying to let forests burn, but not fry. That's hard to do. 

In my part of the world, they have put people on small back country and wilderness fires in order to monitor them. They hope that the fire will stay low intensity and creep around and do some good. Unfortunately, the wind comes up and these fires blow up and then we've got a large fire that won't go out until fall rains start. 

The FS is damned if they do and damned if they don't just like in so many other aspects of forestry. I've never been on a fire where anybody around me was intentionally dragging it on. I have heard of smokejumpers "milking" fires to keep them going, but that's unconfirmed. 

Whatever. It's a real mess and I don't think anything will improve. Maybe enough forest will burn up that there won't be much left to burn for a few years. The FS has had a mass exodus of employees and hasn't really ever worked much on replacing that knowledge. The failed to retrain younger people and even brought some retirees back as contractors to help out instead.


----------



## mountainguyed67

slowp said:


> The Forest Service fire organization is not there to protect structures. That's well known. They have done so. Nor are employees supposed to risk their lives like urban departments. The author is a bit mixed up in expecting that. And yes, the FS is trying to let forests burn, but not fry. That's hard to do.



Agreed. I think the author was talking about that which he did not understand, looking in from the outside. There’s some truth to what he’s saying, but he’s making it out to be worse than it is. He was talking in absolutes. I’ve known USFS to wrap private cabins, it doesn’t seem unusual for them to do so.


----------



## Drptrch

On this day we remember:




















https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=a4837062-3812-4fd1-a7d5-5bc10defe7d2&forceDialog=0




Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Blue Oaks

Drptrch said:


> On this day we remember:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=a4837062-3812-4fd1-a7d5-5bc10defe7d2&forceDialog=0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



Dang.

"The fire reached the fatality site sometime between 7:00 a.m. and 7:30 a.m. PDT. The combination of strong surface wind speeds and the influence of the rising smoke plume, slopes, and heavy fuels along with significant spot fires burning together created an area ignition event. Firefighters assigned to structure protection on Gorgonio View Road and Wonderview Road observed the area ignition occur. They noted a topographical “bowl” about ¼ square mile in size became fully engulfed in flames in less than five minutes."


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang.
> 
> "The fire reached the fatality site sometime between 7:00 a.m. and 7:30 a.m. PDT. The combination of strong surface wind speeds and the influence of the rising smoke plume, slopes, and heavy fuels along with significant spot fires burning together created an area ignition event. Firefighters assigned to structure protection on Gorgonio View Road and Wonderview Road observed the area ignition occur. They noted a topographical “bowl” about ¼ square mile in size became fully engulfed in flames in less than five minutes."



Pretty ominous site in person, and the property owner (a chatty character) maintains its presence and history very well. 
He has rebuilt and maintains a residence there, but his wife can’t come to terms with staying there and just visits 

If you ever have the chance and haven’t : the Rattlesnake burn over from the 50’s is a place to see and visit up on the Mendo near Alder Springs West of Williams 

Edit : West of Williams














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----------



## Drptrch

Anniversary of LODD Steven Rucker, Novato FPD, 2003 Cedar Fire, SoCal 



https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=ffe6ea0e-eed9-4c1a-b976-998ee33fdb21&forceDialog=0

















Novato Fire District on Instagram: "On this day in 2003 Steven Liss Rucker made the ultimate sacrifice while performing firefighting duties on the Cedar Fire in San Diego County. Join the Novato Fire District family in honoring his sacrifice. #steven


Novato Fire District shared a post on Instagram: "On this day in 2003 Steven Liss Rucker made the ultimate sacrifice while performing firefighting duties on the Cedar Fire in San Diego County. Join the Novato Fire District family in honoring his sacrifice. #stevenrucker #iaff1775...




www.instagram.com






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----------



## Drptrch

And on this day in California fire let us remember:
Loop Fire Fatalities 1966 Angeles NF





__





Loop Fire (California) – November 1, 1966







www.nwcg.gov






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----------



## 2dogs

About two weeks ago Cal Fire began a long planned Rx burn btw Aptos and Watsonville CA. The burn was to be 20-30 acres. The burn was nearly done when the wind came. Nobody noticed this trigger point so there was no shift in tactics or strategy. IIRC the final acreage was 130 or so. Evacuations were ordered, aircraft were ordered, and the public was outraged. Cal Fire was blamed.

Then the storm hit and drowned the county. Power went out in many places, trees down all over the county. The public was outraged. PG&E was blamed.


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> About two weeks ago Cal Fire began a long planned Rx burn btw Aptos and Watsonville CA. The burn was to be 20-30 acres. The burn was nearly done when the wind came. Nobody noticed this trigger point so there was no shift in tactics or strategy. IIRC the final acreage was 130 or so. Evacuations were ordered, aircraft were ordered, and the public was outraged. Cal Fire was blamed.
> 
> Then the storm hit and drowned the county. Power went out in many places, trees down all over the county. The public was outraged. PG&E was blamed.



Blame game about everything )


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----------



## atpchas

Awesome Aussie ash and smoke plumes from 2019-2020 fires lead to unprecedented ocean blooms:





Australian Fires Fueled Unprecedented Blooms


Iron-rich aerosols from the 2019-2020 fires fertilized huge phytoplankton populations in the far South Pacific.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## 2dogs

Does anyone have a mark 3 or any other fire pump for sale?


----------



## Drptrch

2dogs said:


> Does anyone have a mark 3 or any other fire pump for sale?



Honda for the convenience, Mark III for the pressure 


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----------



## Hddnis

I guess you can get volunteers if they are pyros.


----------



## Blue Oaks

That wind at the 3:30 mark in the video would make me think again about the plan, and the wind speed one would consider acceptable.


----------



## Drptrch

Blue Oaks said:


> That wind at the 3:30 mark in the video would make me think again about the plan, and the wind speed one would consider acceptable.



100% controlled, 100% in prescription and 100% professionally monitored and assisted with 

That’s a Good thing right there !!


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----------



## Drptrch

Hddnis said:


> I guess you can get volunteers if they are pyros.




Time & involvement was volunteered


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----------



## Hddnis

Drptrch said:


> Time & involvement was volunteered
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


Did you help with that burn?

I really hope to see a lot more of this, our forests will thank us, heck, most of nature will thank us.


----------



## Drptrch

Hddnis said:


> Did you help with that burn?
> 
> I really hope to see a lot more of this, our forests will thank us, heck, most of nature will thank us.



I did not, but I know several that were involved and thier work history and accomplishments 

It wasn’t a let’s burn some **** and make a YouTube video event 

And for sure it’s a good thing if done responsibly, that area has seen a lot of tragedy with fire and all it takes is a bad outcome ( perceived or real) or bad press and it’s a huge setback and a loss of faith 

I live in Sonoma county and after our devastating fires in 2017 and 2019 people are jumpy and anxious and any sign of smoke gets called in
I log my casual outdoor fire pit “warming” fires with our dispatch center as the FD kept responding out on smoke investigations and Wildland fire call-outs to my place. None since 


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----------



## Hddnis

Drptrch said:


> I did not, but I know several that were involved and thier work history and accomplishments
> 
> It wasn’t a let’s burn some **** and make a YouTube video event
> 
> And for sure it’s a good thing if done responsibly, that area has seen a lot of tragedy with fire and all it takes is a bad outcome ( perceived or real) or bad press and it’s a huge setback and a loss of faith
> 
> I live in Sonoma county and after our devastating fires in 2017 and 2019 people are jumpy and anxious and any sign of smoke gets called in
> I log my casual outdoor fire pit “warming” fires with our dispatch center as the FD kept responding out on smoke investigations and Wildland fire call-outs to my place. None since
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



You seem to be defending the effort, or reacting to something? Maybe I misunderstand your tone?

I have nothing but respect for the people involved and support controlled burns by all forest owners 100%. Pyros comment was making light of the discussion a few pages back about how hard it is to get volunteers to help with forest work. Somehow though, if fire is involved, it is easier to get help, which might just be because it is so rare. I know that if I invite the neighborhood over for a bonfire it seems they all show up every time, and bring their friends, people like "good fire".

We gave up trying to burn slash piles on one big thinning project. People on the freeway kept calling it in. Dispatch knew we were burning, lands knew, heck even the tribe knew and they were 30 miles away. The BC would come out every time, we'd chat about whatever and then he'd head back. Few hours later or the next day we'd see him again. I don't know that he had to respond every time, but he did, so whatever.

It was downright insanity when people were calling 911 because they saw smoke and there was 4" of heavy wet snow on the ground. He told me that time it was a neighbor who called it in when they saw smoke on way home from town. I talked to the neighbor and she was all defensive "We had that fire that got so close so we are all real scared of fire." 

Freaking fire was in late summer fifteen years earlier and caused by lightening. It left a scar in the minds of everyone on that side of the mountain. I found out that almost all the calls were from people who lived nearby and would see the smoke on their way home from town.

So any projects in that area we just chip or grind, it is less hassle. Agencies were all fine, they kept saying they were sorry to bother us. We never burned in even remotely marginal conditions. Always in wet or snowy weather, piles were dry and burned out by evening, light wind at most. 

We head ten miles down the same mountains and burn all day no problem. FD in that area says we don't have to tell them, but state rules say we do, so I call it in every time.


----------



## Burning man

Hddnis said:


> You seem to be defending the effort, or reacting to something? Maybe I misunderstand your tone?
> 
> I have nothing but respect for the people involved and support controlled burns by all forest owners 100%. Pyros comment was making light of the discussion a few pages back about how hard it is to get volunteers to help with forest work. Somehow though, if fire is involved, it is easier to get help, which might just be because it is so rare. I know that if I invite the neighborhood over for a bonfire it seems they all show up every time, and bring their friends, people like "good fire".
> 
> We gave up trying to burn slash piles on one big thinning project. People on the freeway kept calling it in. Dispatch knew we were burning, lands knew, heck even the tribe knew and they were 30 miles away. The BC would come out every time, we'd chat about whatever and then he'd head back. Few hours later or the next day we'd see him again. I don't know that he had to respond every time, but he did, so whatever.
> 
> It was downright insanity when people were calling 911 because they saw smoke and there was 4" of heavy wet snow on the ground. He told me that time it was a neighbor who called it in when they saw smoke on way home from town. I talked to the neighbor and she was all defensive "We had that fire that got so close so we are all real scared of fire."
> 
> Freaking fire was in late summer fifteen years earlier and caused by lightening. It left a scar in the minds of everyone on that side of the mountain. I found out that almost all the calls were from people who lived nearby and would see the smoke on their way home from town.
> 
> So any projects in that area we just chip or grind, it is less hassle. Agencies were all fine, they kept saying they were sorry to bother us. We never burned in even remotely marginal conditions. Always in wet or snowy weather, piles were dry and burned out by evening, light wind at most.
> 
> We head ten miles down the same mountains and burn all day no problem. FD in that area says we don't have to tell them, but state rules say we do, so I call it in every time.



We have the same problem were I work. One pile got over 100 911 calls so my boss had to call the kmj580 radio station so they would broadcast it during the traffic report. 
We did a pile burn near our campground and burned all day no problem but as soon as It got dark campers started calling it in.


----------



## Burning man

Drptrch said:


> I did not, but I know several that were involved and thier work history and accomplishments
> 
> It wasn’t a let’s burn some **** and make a YouTube video event
> 
> And for sure it’s a good thing if done responsibly, that area has seen a lot of tragedy with fire and all it takes is a bad outcome ( perceived or real) or bad press and it’s a huge setback and a loss of faith
> 
> I live in Sonoma county and after our devastating fires in 2017 and 2019 people are jumpy and anxious and any sign of smoke gets called in
> I log my casual outdoor fire pit “warming” fires with our dispatch center as the FD kept responding out on smoke investigations and Wildland fire call-outs to my place. None since
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



It's good to see the general public be able to get a bit of hands on education about prescribed fire. Zeke and others trying to get the word out there about it.

I have to put a sign up on the road when burning pine needles by the cabin now since I'm tired of having the fire department show up, if I burn behind on the back 10 acres I can burn day or night...I think having some Calfire and retired forest service as back neighbors helps there.


----------



## Drptrch

Burning man said:


> It's good to see the general public be able to get a bit of hands on education about prescribed fire. Zeke and others trying to get the word out there about it.
> 
> I have to put a sign up on the road when burning pine needles by the cabin now since I'm tired of having the fire department show up, if I burn behind on the back 10 acres I can burn day or night...I think having some Calfire and retired forest service as back neighbors helps there.



Hey Bud, how are ya ? Name change I see now 

For sure on all those points. Good to see him and those involved and presenting it in a controlled manner for the lay person to understand 


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## Burning man

Been doing alright my friend, had some email issues with the site and had to start a new account. Hope you have been well. I learned a lot last week about how burn day regulations and how agencies and land owner can work around with them. First time I've seen the forest service do pile burning on no burn days during winter, they have been doing site prep to start replanting north of alder springs east of our place. Socal Edison has had a large burn going for the last 2 weeks south of Shaver lake.


----------



## Drptrch

Burning man said:


> Been doing alright my friend, had some email issues with the site and had to start a new account. Hope you have been well. I learned a lot last week about how burn day regulations and how agencies and land owner can work around with them. First time I've seen the forest service do pile burning on no burn days during winter, they have been doing site prep to start replanting north of alder springs east of our place. Socal Edison has had a large burn going for the last 2 weeks south of Shaver lake.



Been good. Out on a little miniscus tear on my knee. Waiting for surge date. Otherwise good 


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----------



## newforest

Well I have always learned a lot of the fine details about Fire and western forests from everyone here. This isn’t quite the thread for my newest wondering about it all but I think it is tangentially related enough. 

I understand Pine Beetle impacts (have worked around Southern PB a lot) and stand densities and drought mortality and thinning strategies and have also worked on fuel reduction cutting in Montana and know how you need roads to get wood out of the woods and most things related to this, all fairly well (I hope) for never being able to actually walk around in the Sierra Nevadas. 

And I believe I have read here over the years that a basic problem with beetle and drought kill is nothing can be done with much of the wood - not enough mill base, perhaps? More wood available than mills to use it?

Yesterday I read about a proposal from a group in California that seemed quite proud of their idea, which was astoundingly simple: build an OSB mill in Cslifornia. Because it doesn’t have one. And that OSB material is imported to California from mills all the way over in the south-eastern states. Where I livein the Great Lakes everyone in the Forestry biz is ecstatic about the opening of a new OSB mill as it will make it even easier to manage small diameter wood, get rid of old Xmas tree plantings with no future use, etc., etc. - & we already had one large OSB mill which is still going. 

So I was a little surprised that after all these years of even environmental groups finally agreeing that Man needs to thin forests before fire kills them and thus the obvious question of what to do with the results of all that thinning and all those dead trees - & no one had yet built an OSB mill to put such wood to use? What I’m wondering is, I’m not totally sure, but why hasn’t such a milll ever been built around this seemingly huge supply of small diameter conifer? Am I missing something I don’t understand?

I know well how toxic relations can be between USFS and the private sector. And how much of CA is USFS land. I know a situation in the east where USFS biologists are bull-dozing hundreds of acres of small conifer out of their way (it is not the ‘correct’ conifer), claiming they couldn’t sell it or even give it away. Directly across the property line from their office is a small mill that makes fencing products out of, yup, small diameter conifer. Which is otherwise a bit scarce in that area.
Is USFS policy a reason CA doesn’t already have a mill to make OSB products?


----------



## atpchas

A view from space of the recent Colorado fires. Most striking for me - the brown ground where I would expect to see something with more green to it. Then see the Standardized Precipitation-Evapotranspiration Index map further down and the brown is unavoidable.





Colorado Faces Winter Urban Firestorm


Hurricane-force winds whipped fires across drought-parched grasslands and into suburban neighborhoods.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Burning man

newforest said:


> Well I have always learned a lot of the fine details about Fire and western forests from everyone here. This isn’t quite the thread for my newest wondering about it all but I think it is tangentially related enough.
> 
> I understand Pine Beetle impacts (have worked around Southern PB a lot) and stand densities and drought mortality and thinning strategies and have also worked on fuel reduction cutting in Montana and know how you need roads to get wood out of the woods and most things related to this, all fairly well (I hope) for never being able to actually walk around in the Sierra Nevadas.
> 
> And I believe I have read here over the years that a basic problem with beetle and drought kill is nothing can be done with much of the wood - not enough mill base, perhaps? More wood available than mills to use it?
> 
> Yesterday I read about a proposal from a group in California that seemed quite proud of their idea, which was astoundingly simple: build an OSB mill in Cslifornia. Because it doesn’t have one. And that OSB material is imported to California from mills all the way over in the south-eastern states. Where I livein the Great Lakes everyone in the Forestry biz is ecstatic about the opening of a new OSB mill as it will make it even easier to manage small diameter wood, get rid of old Xmas tree plantings with no future use, etc., etc. - & we already had one large OSB mill which is still going.
> 
> So I was a little surprised that after all these years of even environmental groups finally agreeing that Man needs to thin forests before fire kills them and thus the obvious question of what to do with the results of all that thinning and all those dead trees - & no one had yet built an OSB mill to put such wood to use? What I’m wondering is, I’m not totally sure, but why hasn’t such a milll ever been built around this seemingly huge supply of small diameter conifer? Am I missing something I don’t understand?
> 
> I know well how toxic relations can be between USFS and the private sector. And how much of CA is USFS land. I know a situation in the east where USFS biologists are bull-dozing hundreds of acres of small conifer out of their way (it is not the ‘correct’ conifer), claiming they couldn’t sell it or even give it away. Directly across the property line from their office is a small mill that makes fencing products out of, yup, small diameter conifer. Which is otherwise a bit scarce in that area.
> Is USFS policy a reason CA doesn’t already have a mill to make OSB products?



Its more so state regulations than usfs policy but it's a double whammy still. There's 1 lumber mill in the southern half of the state at Terra Bella and planned new mill on the auberry mill site suffered a major setback when two log decks burned and severely damaged the portable mill, truck, and generators. 

USFS and State regs have caused a number of post fire salvage logging bids locally to fall through. One being dubbed the North fork fire salvage cluster **** by a local usfs Forester, started out at 1000 acres and over 4 years got reduced to 90 acres to log and if I remember right only 50 got done because of rot. At least now the USFS seems more willing log at least post fire in some areas but not enough to encourage major investment in a large mill operation.


----------



## slowp

This is cheery.


----------



## Burning man




----------



## 2dogs

This probably my biggest work week with the inmate hand crews and... they are on Covid lockdown. I have 150 volunteers showing up Saturday to help with slash pile burning, wish me good fortune. The crews left me good piles but I always like a last minute touch-up.


----------



## 2dogs

So the 150 volunteers showed up last Saturday but the winds were extreme on the coast. Friday night a fire erupted in Monterey County along Hwy 1 north of Big Sur. Jumping ahead the cause was determined to be a slash pile left burning, 700 acres in January! On Saturday morning we put out heads together and cancelled the event until the winds subsided. Fortunately the winds died off around noon, the time we were going to stop feeding the fires. We were able to burn one pile as a demo to the Scouts but that's it. Tomorrow I have another small group of young Scouts to demo a pile to and for them to feed. Wish me luck.


----------



## WIslxer

I came across this vid the other day and figured I'd share it. Tender gets burned over and some engines narrowly escape. Tender op got burned and the task force had to cover his face in his vehicle. Antelope fire on the Klamath. This is one of the sketchier fire vids I've seen. They were trying to hold the fire to the east (right side) of this forest road. It spotted over to the west side then the wind switched and pushed it northeast back towards the road. That's the flank you see in this vid. They were trying to catch the spot fire - that's what you can hear them talking about right away in the vid. "I think we can catch it" That's just good firefighter humor right there.


----------



## Burning man

WIslxer said:


> I came across this vid the other day and figured I'd share it. Tender gets burned over and some engines narrowly escape. Tender op got burned and the task force had to cover his face in his vehicle. Antelope fire on the Klamath. This is one of the sketchier fire vids I've seen. They were trying to hold the fire to the east (right side) of this forest road. It spotted over to the west side then the wind switched and pushed it northeast back towards the road. That's the flank you see in this vid. They were trying to catch the spot fire - that's what you can hear them talking about right away in the vid. "I think we can catch it" That's just good firefighter humor right there.




I remember hearing some scuttle butt about this that day, the fire ran All the way to a previous burn from July. I'll have to go back and look at firms mapping. Insane video.


----------



## 2dogs

4 minutes of pucker.


----------



## haakon

WIslxer said:


> I came across this vid the other day and figured I'd share it. Tender gets burned over and some engines narrowly escape. Tender op got burned and the task force had to cover his face in his vehicle. Antelope fire on the Klamath. This is one of the sketchier fire vids I've seen. They were trying to hold the fire to the east (right side) of this forest road. It spotted over to the west side then the wind switched and pushed it northeast back towards the road. That's the flank you see in this vid. They were trying to catch the spot fire - that's what you can hear them talking about right away in the vid. "I think we can catch it" That's just good firefighter humor right there.



Nice cool and slow fires in those pine forests, very civilised! They'd all be dead in a big aussie Eucalyptus forest fire storm... And then there would be a big investigation as to why the hell they all got caught out there.


----------



## haakon




----------



## Drptrch

WIslxer said:


> I came across this vid the other day and figured I'd share it. Tender gets burned over and some engines narrowly escape. Tender op got burned and the task force had to cover his face in his vehicle. Antelope fire on the Klamath. This is one of the sketchier fire vids I've seen. They were trying to hold the fire to the east (right side) of this forest road. It spotted over to the west side then the wind switched and pushed it northeast back towards the road. That's the flank you see in this vid. They were trying to catch the spot fire - that's what you can hear them talking about right away in the vid. "I think we can catch it" That's just good firefighter humor right there.




Also 



https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=83907c3d-206f-7a2a-22ab-2ddfa15f79b2&forceDialog=0




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----------



## Burning man

Meanwhile in northern California...




__





ALERT Wildfire







www.alertwildfire.org


----------



## TNTreeHugger

WIslxer said:


> I came across this vid the other day and figured I'd share it. Tender gets burned over and some engines narrowly escape. Tender op got burned and the task force had to cover his face in his vehicle. Antelope fire on the Klamath. This is one of the sketchier fire vids I've seen. They were trying to hold the fire to the east (right side) of this forest road. It spotted over to the west side then the wind switched and pushed it northeast back towards the road. That's the flank you see in this vid. They were trying to catch the spot fire - that's what you can hear them talking about right away in the vid. "I think we can catch it" That's just good firefighter humor right there.



HOLY SH!T
You guys do this for a living??


----------



## Burning man

Burning man said:


> Meanwhile in northern California...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALERT Wildfire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alertwildfire.org


Went to the Shasta county air quality management district site and it said no burn day, call both numbers listed and one says it is a burn day but the other says it's not.


----------



## Biigg50

Burning man said:


> Went to the Shasta county air quality management district site and it said no burn day, call both numbers listed and one says it is a burn day but the other says it's not.



Ya it’s been pretty windy today and things are getting dry.


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----------



## Blue Oaks

TNTreeHugger said:


> HOLY SH!T
> You guys do this for a living??



Some of us volunteer to do it. Truth be told, I've never been in anything like that- and I hope I never will.


----------



## Drptrch

TNTreeHugger said:


> HOLY SH!T
> You guys do this for a living??



Every year and gettin crazier every year 


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## WIslxer

More Klamath fun!



I used this in a 130 course a few years back. An old jumper in the room said "holy fvck that spot doesn't look survivable" or something to that effect. Helped me drive home the point of being leery about what is and what isn't a safety zone. 

I've never been in a situation like either of these vids. I've been on plenty of fires with behavior similar to this and have been in some sketchy stuff - mostly aviation related. I'll be the first to admit when that engine went off road in that first vid I might have sh1t my pants. Those guys handled it well.


----------



## Drptrch

WIslxer said:


> More Klamath fun!
> 
> 
> 
> I used this in a 130 course a few years back. An old jumper in the room said "holy fvck that spot doesn't look survivable" or something to that effect. Helped me drive home the point of being leery about what is and what isn't a safety zone.
> 
> I've never been in a situation like either of these vids. I've been on plenty of fires with behavior similar to this and have been in some sketchy stuff - mostly aviation related. I'll be the first to admit when that engine went off road in that first vid I might have sh1t my pants. Those guys handled it well.




I was on that fire as a Medic. Unfortunate, classic T-Cell outflow caused that and …






Here is a photo of it from Hwy 97 making access for aid. I transported them to Yreka Hospital after for a well check. A very talkative, humble and somber drive at times . And the longest return drive back to camp at 0400
Great guys and Luckily great outcome and a great lessons learned produced from it 


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----------



## Drptrch

This is the longer version of the Beaver Fire deployment with interviews 




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----------



## atpchas

Some satellite views of Texas fires:




__





Dry Winds and Grasses Fuel Texas Fires


More than 100,000 acres have burned in a mid-March wildfire outbreak.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## atpchas

The 2019-2020 fires in Australia were extremely bad. Now it appears they were worse than we knew.








The ozone layer was damaged by Australia’s Black Summer megafires


Ozone levels above the mid-southern hemisphere dropped 13 per cent after Australia’s worst fires on record due to chemical reactions triggered by the smoke




www.newscientist.com


----------



## Blue Oaks

Wow. That's a lot.


----------



## WIslxer

Drptrch said:


> I was on that fire as a Medic. Unfortunate, classic T-Cell outflow caused that and …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a photo of it from Hwy 97 making access for aid. I transported them to Yreka Hospital after for a well check. A very talkative, humble and somber drive at times . And the longest return drive back to camp at 0400
> Great guys and Luckily great outcome and a great lessons learned produced from it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see





Drptrch said:


> This is the longer version of the Beaver Fire deployment with interviews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



Yeah this was the version I used in the refresher. That's interesting that you drove the guys down the hill - humble and somber...well said. Hard to imagine feeling anything else. I've been to the Klamath (got covered head to toe in poison oak and nearly stepped on a giant, lime green but also cool-to-see rattlesnake) and the Stanislaus (nerve-wracking medivac flight there). Those are a couple of my NorCal fire experiences. If I never go to happy camp california ever again in my life I'll be very fine with that. And the t-cell outflow - more recently made notorious at Yarnell.


----------



## Drptrch

WIslxer said:


> Yeah this was the version I used in the refresher. That's interesting that you drove the guys down the hill - humble and somber...well said. Hard to imagine feeling anything else. I've been to the Klamath (got covered head to toe in poison oak and nearly stepped on a giant, lime green but also cool-to-see rattlesnake) and the Stanislaus (nerve-wracking medivac flight there). Those are a couple of my NorCal fire experiences. If I never go to happy camp california ever again in my life I'll be very fine with that. And the t-cell outflow - more recently made notorious at Yarnell.



Com’on now, Happy Camps the BOMB [emoji378] Killer pizza place too 


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----------



## Sierra_rider

Drptrch said:


> Com’on now, Happy Camps the BOMB [emoji378] Killer pizza place too
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


Lol, we call it not-so-Happy camp.


----------



## WIslxer

Drptrch said:


> Com’on now, Happy Camps the BOMB [emoji378] Killer pizza place too
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


Admittedly I was on sh!tty fire details both times I was there. It could be a cool little town outside of that context. The poison oak sucked and the locals were.....interesting...... but I also was young and clueless. Maybe I owe it another shot.


----------



## Drptrch

WIslxer said:


> Admittedly I was on sh!tty fire details both times I was there. It could be a cool little town outside of that context. The poison oak sucked and the locals were.....interesting...... but I also was young and clueless. Maybe I owe it another shot.



Which ones or years if you remember?
Eng , Crew , OH ?


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----------



## catbuster

Anyone ever shut your light off during mop up and think the embers look like horde of little hot eyes looking at you?


----------



## WIslxer

Drptrch said:


> Which ones or years if you remember?
> Eng , Crew , OH ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


08' I was on a type 2 interagency handcrew. Not sure of the fire/incident. Believe it was a complex. That's when I got the poison oak. We mopped up in poison oak for two weeks. 

09' I was on a helitack crew. We were prepo'd or severity. I can't remember. We did actually pop a couple interesting IAs on that roll so it actually wasn't a bad gig. That might not have even been right in Happy Camp...just very near there.


----------



## Drptrch

WIslxer said:


> 08' I was on a type 2 interagency handcrew. Not sure of the fire/incident. Believe it was a complex. That's when I got the poison oak. We mopped up in poison oak for two weeks.
> 
> 09' I was on a helitack crew. We were prepo'd or severity. I can't remember. We did actually pop a couple interesting IAs on that roll so it actually wasn't a bad gig. That might not have even been right in Happy Camp...just very near there.



Probably the Klamath Theater Complex (200,000 acres) 08 was a big year out here. Tons of dry lightning fires ran the state 
Indians, Basin, lime, Iron/Alps, Siskiyou and Six Rivers Complex’s 
1.5 million+ acres 






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----------



## Drptrch

catbuster said:


> Anyone ever shut your light off during mop up and think the embers look like horde of little hot eyes looking at you? View attachment 977594
> View attachment 977595



Trippin’, they’re out there 🫣


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----------



## ATpro

catbuster said:


> Anyone ever shut your light off during mop up and think the embers look like horde of little hot eyes looking at you?


We called them candles, doing prescribe burns in plantation pines that were heavily infected with Pitch canker it would look like 1000's of candles glowing in the night.


----------



## 2dogs

Drptrch said:


> Probably the Klamath Theater Complex (200,000 acres) 08 was a big year out here. Tons of dry lightning fires ran the state
> Indians, Basin, lime, Iron/Alps, Siskiyou and Six Rivers Complex’s
> 1.5 million+ acres
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see


I spent a good two years working rehab on the Basin Complex. We have about 550 acres, now for sale, at the end of Palo Colorado Canyon Road. In 2016 the Soberanes fire ripped through much of the same area.


----------



## mountainguyed67

Drptrch said:


> 08 was a big year out here.



The Tehipite Fire was that year. I wanted to backpack through there, but the trail was closed. I came through the next year. There were trees completely gone including the stump, there were tunnels where the roots were. There were areas where it looked like the trees exploded, and pieces were scattered everywhere. And there was vegetation already grown back.


----------



## Drptrch

mountainguyed67 said:


> The Tehipite Fire was that year. I wanted to backpack through there, but the trail was closed. I came through the next year. There were trees completely gone including the stump, there were tunnels where the roots were. There were areas where it looked like the trees exploded, and pieces were scattered everywhere. And there was vegetation already grown back.



Yep [emoji1360] Nasty Steep area there 
I was near Buck Rock, Kennedy meadows and up to near the “old” lookout Peak area on the Rough Fire  a few years back
Kings river steep area 



https://www.nps.gov/seki/learn/nature/upload/SEKI%20Tehipite-3.pdf




Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## Burning man

mountainguyed67 said:


> The Tehipite Fire was that year. I wanted to backpack through there, but the trail was closed. I came through the next year. There were trees completely gone including the stump, there were tunnels where the roots were. There were areas where it looked like the trees exploded, and pieces were scattered everywhere. And there was vegetation already grown back.



Right behind tombstone ridge. The tehipite fire was staffed with or two people and a camera the entire time it burned


----------



## mountainguyed67

Drptrch said:


> Yep [emoji1360] Nasty Steep area there
> I was near Buck Rock, Kennedy meadows and up to near the “old” lookout Peak area on the Rough Fire  a few years back
> Kings river steep area
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nps.gov/seki/learn/nature/upload/SEKI%20Tehipite-3.pdf



I took this from that article.

”The fire was burning in some of the steepest, most remote wilderness terrain in Kings Canyon National Park – a dangerous place to put firefighters on the ground.“ 

It had burned one side of the switchbacks coming out of Tehipite Valley. Those switchbacks climb 3,000 feet in three miles, but you only move one mile (straight line). Where I saw the worst damage was well beyond the switchbacks.


----------



## mountainguyed67

Burning man said:


> Right behind tombstone ridge. The tehipite fire was staffed with or two people and a camera the entire time it burned



They had a crew watching the private cabins at Crown Valley too, the Johnston family has had those since about 1914.


----------



## mountainguyed67

Drptrch said:


> I was near Buck Rock, Kennedy meadows and up to near the “old” lookout Peak area on the Rough Fire  a few years back



Kennedy Meadows? The one near Kennedy Pass? I went over Kennedy Pass one year too. 

The Rough Fire burned the 4WD trail my 4WD club has the adopt a trail agreement on, I helped rehab it. I still help open it every year. The fire also crossed the Kings River hiking trail that the volunteer organization I started has the adopt a trail agreement on, that dropped a lot of trees across the trail. The trunks partly burned, and the tree dropped, mostly intact. My mom also had to evacuate Stony Creek Campground, where she was camp host.


----------



## Drptrch

mountainguyed67 said:


> Kennedy Meadows? The one near Kennedy Pass? I went over Kennedy Pass one year too.
> 
> The Rough Fire burned the 4WD trail my 4WD club has the adopt a trail agreement on, I helped rehab it. I still help open it every year. The fire also crossed the Kings River hiking trail that the volunteer organization I started has the adopt a trail agreement on, that dropped a lot of trees across the trail. The trunks partly burned, and the tree dropped, mostly intact. My mom also had to evacuate Stony Creek Campground, where she was camp host.



My bad. I meant Big Meadows was on the 14S11 road area 
That's very cool. Beautiful country up there 


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----------



## mountainguyed67

Drptrch said:


> My bad. I meant Big Meadows was on the 14S11 road area



I know Big Meadows too.


----------



## Drptrch

mountainguyed67 said:


> I know Big Meadows too.



This is the Kennedy meadow I was thinking of 
36°46.295' N, 118°49.928' W on the S-SE side of it 

What 4x trails do you help maintain ? I only went to the end of the 180 only for two shifts, lotta boulders and trees came down. Then over to McKensie ridge area above the helipad up to Deliah lookout ( black flies were so nasty, did radio briefing from inside vehicles) 
When fire came up out of Converse Basin over McKensie Ridge 







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----------



## mountainguyed67

Drptrch said:


> What 4x trails do you help maintain ?



Spanish OHV, and Dusy-Ershim.

Spanish. There were over a hundred trees across this 5.5 mile trail last year.


----------



## Drptrch

mountainguyed67 said:


> Spanish OHV, and Dusy-Ershim.
> 
> Spanish. There were over a hundred trees across this 5.5 mile trail last year.
> View attachment 978689
> View attachment 978690
> View attachment 978691



Nice job, Hats off to ya !! Nice to see the rebirth 


Sent from my iPhone using see


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy

__





Healthy Forests, Healthy Communities – Supporting active, multiple-use management of federal forest lands







healthyforests.org


----------



## Blue Oaks

Some of you may have seen the news reports of the Home Depot burning in San Jose. My folks live about 3 miles down wind of it and my dad showed me a piece of what looked to be tar paper in the form of a giant ember about 10 inches by 5 inches in size. They're lucky that fire wasn't during summer or there would have been a lot more fires between the store and my folks' house.


----------



## grizz55chev

Blue Oaks said:


> Some of you may have seen the news reports of the Home Depot burning in San Jose. My folks live about 3 miles down wind of it and my dad showed me a piece of what looked to be tar paper in the form of a giant ember about 10 inches by 5 inches in size. They're lucky that fire wasn't during summer or there would have been a lot more fires between the store and my folks' house.


Going to be interesting to see the cause of the fire and why the sprinkler system failed to halt the spread of this fire.


----------



## Burning man

Was looking at the creek fire structure damage assessment images on ArcGIS and came across structures that only had tornado damage from the one that happened at Huntington lake.


----------



## Drptrch

grizz55chev said:


> Going to be interesting to see the cause of the fire and why the sprinkler system failed to halt the spread of this fire.











Home Depot arson suspect also accused of theft spree in San Jose


An arson suspect accused of torching the Home Depot in San Jose was on a theft spree, and attempting to steal thousands of dollars in tools, officials said.




www.ktvu.com






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----------



## Burning man

https://wildfiretoday.com/2022/04/1...ter-wins-whistleblower-retaliation-complaint/


----------



## atpchas

Fires in New Mexico, satellite view:





Wildfires Scorch Northern New Mexico


Strong, gusty winds and an exceedingly dry landscape fueled an early and severe outbreak of fire.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## 2dogs

Charlie I've been through some of this ground the Cooks Peak fire has burned. In 2007 and 2010 Cody and I went on treks at Philmont Scout Ranch. One of the cabins that burned, Zastro, had a large axe collection that I absolutely drooled over. BTW '07 was a 65 mile trek and '10 we did over 80 miles. (Serious blisters in 2010.)


----------



## atpchas

2dogs said:


> Charlie I've been through some of this ground the Cooks Peak fire has burned. In 2007 and 2010 Cody and I went on treks at Philmont Scout Ranch. One of the cabins that burned, Zastro, had a large axe collection that I absolutely drooled over. BTW '07 was a 65 mile trek and '10 we did over 80 miles. (Serious blisters in 2010.)


I can't even imagine hikes like that, even before my hips betrayed me. 
I assume the ax handles all burned but don't know enough metallurgy to know if the heat ruined the ax heads. In any case, the loss of fine tools is regrettable.


----------



## atpchas

Satellite view of New Mexico fires





Wildfires Continue to Burn Across New Mexico


By early May 2022, nearly a quarter million acres had burned in New Mexico, almost double the annual total of 2021.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Blue Oaks

Did they really think they needed to label the smoke?


----------



## 2dogs

Charlie if the ATP is ever threatened with fire again call me immediately and I'll some up and rescue the Jeep.


----------



## atpchas

2dogs said:


> Charlie if the ATP is ever threatened with fire again call me immediately and I'll some up and rescue the Jeep.


Only if you promise to return it, but I fear that would be too much to ask.


----------



## atpchas

Blue Oaks said:


> Did they really think they needed to label the smoke?
> 
> View attachment 985895


Some might wonder if those were clouds...
More seriously, see the time lapse of these fires in the article below. The "front" rolling down from the north is dust from Colorado.








Smoke and Sandstorm, Seen From Space


A time-lapse image of smoke from wildfires in New Mexico and dust from a storm in Colorado illustrates the scope of Western catastrophe.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## Burning man

Fire training and having a McCloud saved my bacon today, burned needle piles and bark everything burned down....or so I thought so I went in for a break after about 10 minutes I heard some popping it crossed my line and ran through the chip pile and was headed for the heavier pine needles that would have made it really fun.


----------



## osadayo99

Northern New Mexico's Hermits Peak fire as of today 5/10/22. photo taken from my driveway in town of Taos.


----------



## osadayo99

This Wildfire began with an approved Forest Service prescribed burn in early April {one of the windiest times of the year in this area }


----------



## mountainguyed67

Burning man said:


> having a McCloud saved my bacon today



I love our McLeod.


----------



## osadayo99

No doubt .....not something ya wanna be without, together with a Pulaski or two !


----------



## atpchas

Now I know what pyroCb stands for:





New Mexico Wildfire Spawns Fire Cloud


A massive, early season wildfire that continues to burn in northern New Mexico generated a pyrocumulonimbus cloud.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## atpchas

Satellite view of Black fire in New Mexico





The Black Fire Blows Up in New Mexico


The intensity and speed of the Black fire grew quickly, producing a pyrocumulonimbus cloud and crossing the Continental Divide, to become the second-largest fire in the state.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Blue Oaks

Crazy that Calf Canyon-Hermits Peak fire has grown to the largest in New Mexico state history and it's not even June yet.


----------



## Gologit

Slow Burn: Cal Fire Has Failed to Fight PTSD, Heavy Workloads


About 10% of Cal Fire’s workforce quit the agency last year. “We are at critical mass, guaranteed,” one Cal Fire captain said. Story from @CalMatters.




lostcoastoutpost.com


----------



## ericm979

The flame height on the pipeline fire in AZ is unreal: 

(sorry, can't figure out how to link directly to the video).

That mountain peak is about 3000' above the surrounding terrain. That makes those flames something like 500' high. Holy ****. I worked on fire crew in that area decades ago. We didn't get that kind of fire then.

BTW the fire is named after a trail near where it started not an actual pipeline. Also they caught the guy who started it.

Lets hope monsoon season starts early to help put this out.


----------



## atpchas

From the PBS website - a vision of hell.



The Pipeline Fire leaves the mountains northeast of the San Francisco Peaks glowing with thousands of spot fires north of Flagstaff, Arizona, U.S., June 13, 2022. Picture taken June 13, 2022. Photo by Rob Schumacher/The Republic/USA TODAY NETWORK via REUTERS


----------



## 2dogs

Great pic Charlie. Even if those are not spot fires.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Griz, hope you're not in the path of the Rices Fire.



https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1BdxYwYbVaoGX


----------



## atpchas

Alaska fires as seen from space:




__





A Smoky Summer in Alaska


Satellite imagery shows smoke from hundreds of wildland fires darkening skies.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## atpchas

Fires in No. Canada





Heat and Fires Scorch Northern Canada


Hundreds of fires are raging in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## Jacob J.

atpchas said:


> Alaska fires as seen from space:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Smoky Summer in Alaska
> 
> 
> Satellite imagery shows smoke from hundreds of wildland fires darkening skies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earthobservatory.nasa.gov




Alaska's been getting hit pretty hard this year. As of last Friday, every Region 6 hotshot crew was in Alaska along with several T2IA crews as well.


----------



## atpchas

Jacob J. said:


> Alaska's been getting hit pretty hard this year. As of last Friday, every Region 6 hotshot crew was in Alaska along with several T2IA crews as well.


That may be an understatement. My jaw dropped when I saw this site:


Current Fires | Alaska Wildfires Smoke Forecast Page



My last experience in AK was commercial fishing out of Cordova on Prince William Sound 40-45 years ago.. The forests there were so wet that I couldn't imagine them burning. I know they have had fires in that region over the years but the link above shows very little burning in that part of the state.


----------



## Blue Oaks

Good news in Yosemite. https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/mariposa-grove-will-survive-fire-17298114.php


----------



## 2dogs

Yahoo news published an article from the Ventura Star about the Ventura Program that helps former inmates become trained as firefighters. This is a very succesful program funded by the state of California. (Newsom vetoed the establisment of a second training site in northern California.) Please take a few moments to read the article and if you inclined to do so, comment.


----------



## atpchas

2dogs said:


> Yahoo news published an article from the Ventura Star about the Ventura Program that helps former inmates become trained as firefighters. This is a very succesful program funded by the state of California. (Newsom vetoed the establisment of a second training site in northern California.) Please take a few moments to read the article and if you inclined to do so, comment.


I'm guessing this the article you mentioned. This sort of program seems like a win-win for all concerned.








Ventura Training Center transforms parolees into professional firefighters


More than 100 former inmates have been hired as professional firefighters after attending the Ventura Training Center since it opened in 2018.



www.vcstar.com


----------



## Burning man

Helco on the Washburn fire had message for Alexis before returning to Mariposa for the evening


----------



## atpchas

Fires Near Yosemite


For the second time in a month, drought-parched forests near the park are burning.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov




Some satellite pictures of the Oak Fire near Yosemite. The last photo, a ground level shot of a burned out area, brought back memories of some of the worst hit parts at the Taylor Preserve after the 2017 Nuns Fire.


----------



## northmanlogging

no fires near here, but no wind, no rain its over 100 in the shade, and the smoke is settling in from east of the cascades... welcome to Summer in the Puget sound area...

Bonus, I'm fat and hairy, humidity is around 80%, and I have to go wire up the disservice truck to haul my new fire trailer tomorrow... 
Inside, the smol window mount AC unit is doing a middling job of keeping the house livable... so its even harder to venture outside

Note: I said shade, cause like we can see this thing they call the sun... it like a giant nuclear reactor just doing its thing a million miles away... feckin weird yo. 

What is weird... I own a series of beach umbrellas, not for the rain, but for the shade on days like this... the rain doesn't bother me lol. (the moss if very itchy when it dries out)


----------



## Burning man

The McKinney fire went nuts last night.


----------



## Blue Oaks

That thing's a monster. Hopefully some of this rain will make it up that way today.


----------



## slowp

We're OK here so farrrr. (keeping fingers and toes crossed). Got a little smoke on Saturday from Beautiful British Columbia. It's cloudy this morning.

This is my indicator of fire season severity for the state of Warshington. As you can tell, it isn't bad.....yet.


----------



## grizz55chev

Blue Oaks said:


> That thing's a monster. Hopefully some of this rain will make it up that way today.


Sadly, along with the rain comes lightning! Prayers for all those that are in the path of this monster and also those that are fighting it!


----------



## Blue Oaks

grizz55chev said:


> Sadly, along with the rain comes lightning! Prayers for all those that are in the path of this monster and also those that are fighting it!



In this case it looks like no lightning. I've been checking the radar on and off and it LOOKS like maybe they got quite a bit of rain today.


----------



## ericm979

The IR from this morning looks pretty good and the pilot mentioned that the rain helped.


----------



## 2dogs

Massive downpours and debris flows last night had fire crews abandoning their vehicles and running for their lives uphill on the McKinney fire in Siskiyou county. Heavy equipment is working their way in to try and extricate fire vehicles.


----------



## Backyard Lumberjack

McKinney made the news here yesterday and today, too. McKinney, Texas. fires! 5-7 acrs though. not the 55K in Ca  and more today, too. 4/5 more! up in and around the Austin area... one up near Dallas recently, started from mowing. up at my ranch few hectars over... shredding in pasture, hit rock, spark lit it off! 3-alarm!! pasture fires on front page of local rural newspaper almost weekly... 

scene from the pasture fire other day....


----------



## catbuster

2dogs said:


> Massive downpours and debris flows last night had fire crews abandoning their vehicles and running for their lives uphill on the McKinney fire in Siskiyou county. Heavy equipment is working their way in to try and extricate fire vehicles.



Do you know if everybody got out safe? Losing equipment sucks, but people are irreplaceable.


----------



## RandyMac

It wandered in my direction, about 6 miles away or so and God pissed on it.
0930 07/30/22


----------



## Gologit

RandyMac said:


> It wandered in my direction, about 6 miles away or so and God pissed on it.
> 0930 07/30/22


Got your boogy shoes on?


----------



## atpchas

McKinney Fire satellite view:






Scarred Land and Smoky Skies


The McKinney Fire—California’s largest so far in 2022—left a vast burn scar on the landscape, while nearby fires filled the air with smoke.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


----------



## atpchas

I know it's sped up, but damn!


----------



## slowp

W. Warshington is having a go at it. White Pass and Stevens Pass are now closed. 
Packwood, WA has a dozer line around it.


----------



## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> W. Warshington is having a go at it. White Pass and Stevens Pass are now closed.
> Packwood, WA has a dozer line around it.


Bolt Crk Fire, is uncomfortably close to home, and moving fast, Skykomish and index are being evacuated, its still a few miles away, but its crispy dry out there and winds are blowing from the east... not goo at all.


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> Bolt Crk Fire, is uncomfortably close to home, and moving fast, Skykomish and index are being evacuated, its still a few miles away, but its crispy dry out there and winds are blowing from the east... not goo at all.


Heard they have had to rescue some hikers who were trapped on Baring Mtn.

Meanwhile, a fire broke out to my north, in between Omak and Tonasket and quite near to a classic example of the Forest/Urban Interface. A housing development built in the midst of sagebrush and Ponderosa Pine. Because of that, the DNR is calling in a lot of stuff and Canada is sending the first round of air tankers because they can get there faster than our domestic planes. The housing development is being evacuated.

Meanwhile, on another forum, folks were getting evacuation notices and they lived far away from the Baring fire. Even some King county residents were notified. Shortly after, a Sorry, hit the wrong button apology was sent out.


----------



## slowp

I have been pleased with how our DNR and county fire folks have been handling this outbreak. 

They are wasting no time.


----------



## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> Heard they have had to rescue some hikers who were trapped on Baring Mtn.
> 
> Meanwhile, a fire broke out to my north, in between Omak and Tonasket and quite near to a classic example of the Forest/Urban Interface. A housing development built in the midst of sagebrush and Ponderosa Pine. Because of that, the DNR is calling in a lot of stuff and Canada is sending the first round of air tankers because they can get there faster than our domestic planes. The housing development is being evacuated.
> 
> Meanwhile, on another forum, folks were getting evacuation notices and they lived far away from the Baring fire. Even some King county residents were notified. Shortly after, a Sorry, hit the wrong button apology was sent out.


I may have gotten one of them notifications, quickly followed by an apology. 
That said, I'm getting the important stuff ready to go, the fuel load between here and there isn't what I would call good, lots of abandoned overgrown hemlock stands and poorly maintained private acreage, that fire gets past Startup (the town) its gonna be hard to stop.


----------



## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> I may have gotten one of them notifications, quickly followed by an apology.
> That said, I'm getting the important stuff ready to go, the fuel load between here and there isn't what I would call good, lots of abandoned overgrown hemlock stands and poorly maintained private acreage, that fire gets past Startup (the town) its gonna be hard to stop.


Yeah, that sounds good. 

We have Hwy 97, which runs all the way up to Canada or south to Oregon. I read complaints that morons (politely called looky loos) have been causing traffic jams from driving TO the Crumbacher Fire area, parking, and taking pictures. They've even been entering the development and parking in the road. Folks are trying to get out and idiots are trying to get in. I think that might be how highways get shut down. 

Good luck to ya. Hope things calm down for the night, at least. I have windows open as the air doesn't smell smoky or look as bad as shown on the air quality pages. Maybe the sensor is in a bad location...


----------



## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> Yeah, that sounds good.
> 
> We have Hwy 97, which runs all the way up to Canada or south to Oregon. I read complaints that morons (politely called looky loos) have been causing traffic jams from driving TO the Crumbacher Fire area, parking, and taking pictures. They've even been entering the development and parking in the road. Folks are trying to get out and idiots are trying to get in. I think that might be how highways get shut down.
> 
> Good luck to ya. Hope things calm down for the night, at least. I have windows open as the air doesn't smell smoky or look as bad as shown on the air quality pages. Maybe the sensor is in a bad location...


air is thick, and ash has been falling since at least noon... so... we'll check in in the morning.


----------



## Captain Bruce

God Bless the Hot Spotters.


----------



## mountainguyed67

slowp said:


> Folks are trying to get out and idiots are trying to get in.



Law enforcement here doesn’t let that happen, two years ago they arrested several residents trying to get back to their homes during the fire.


----------



## slowp

mountainguyed67 said:


> Law enforcement here doesn’t let that happen, two years ago they arrested several residents trying to get back to their homes during the fire.


We don't have much in the way of law enforcement here. It's a huge county, small population (apparently a lot of morons) low income area.

Apparently, the community survived the night, but the roads were dangerous due to the idiots. It's a bit smoky here this morning but there is no wind.


----------



## slowp

Wow. I think I would've hunkered down in one of the boulder fields out of a "notch" and wait it out. 

Guys with more experience--your thoughts?


----------



## catbuster

So this is all armchair quarterbacking, which I don’t like, but I’ll make a couple comments

First and foremost… _Why would they even go out? _Did they not check fire conditions, or did they just go out anyway? I don’t get it. I wouldn’t want to take my crew out there, much less even consider going out there as two people with just hiking stuff that burns, melts and not have a shelter.

The boulder field on the left @ 1:33 in would have been a decent place to hang out. It had some space, a big escarpment on one side (I don’t know if it was the fire side, but if the fire was burning up that way it would have provided a lot of protection). It doesn’t appear like it would create a chimney effect and cook you either. But, they were well past that when they saw the fire and were probably smart not to try to back track down there, because they would have been overrun before they got there.

1:46 has less fuel load, but those draws get hot air cooking through them and even with little fuel load it can be game over.

Where they stopped was a decent spot. And they should have stayed there for a while before they started moving… I think. Moving down the dry creek bed they did was really stupid. They didn’t know where the fire was, and unlike South Canyon, it wasn’t their only option to prevent getting cooked… Again, I think.

The fire chased them down the hill, and the spot at 8:30 was the _best _place they had to stay. And yet they went back into the woods. I don’t get it. Things could have been _hot _just around that left crag and nobody would have known until they walked into it.

And lastly, I sure as hell would not have taken the time to take pictures or video. It was time to **** and get it, not mess with a camera.

Again, just first thoughts.

I’m going to edit this and say that they didn’t seem like inexperienced backcountry hikers, either. That might have saved their bacon with the ability to move around in that terrain. Not everybody is so lucky. But again, that just makes me question why they went out there even more.

I also wonder why the group managing that ground even let someone in that area. No suppression is fine, let it burn, it won’t hurt anybody. But it only won’t hurt anybody if no one is there.


----------



## northmanlogging

catbuster said:


> So this is all armchair quarterbacking, which I don’t like, but I’ll make a couple comments
> 
> First and foremost… _Why would they even go out? _Did they not check fire conditions, or did they just go out anyway? I don’t get it. I wouldn’t want to take my crew out there, much less even consider going out there as two people with just hiking stuff that burns, melts and not have a shelter.
> 
> The boulder field on the left @ 1:33 in would have been a decent place to hang out. It had some space, a big escarpment on one side (I don’t know if it was the fire side, but if the fire was burning up that way it would have provided a lot of protection). It doesn’t appear like it would create a chimney effect and cook you either. But, they were well past that when they saw the fire and were probably smart not to try to back track down there, because they would have been overrun before they got there.
> 
> 1:46 has less fuel load, but those draws get hot air cooking through them and even with little fuel load it can be game over.
> 
> Where they stopped was a decent spot. And they should have stayed there for a while before they started moving… I think. Moving down the dry creek bed they did was really stupid. They didn’t know where the fire was, and unlike South Canyon, it wasn’t their only option to prevent getting cooked… Again, I think.
> 
> The fire chased them down the hill, and the spot at 8:30 was the _best _place they had to stay. And yet they went back into the woods. I don’t get it. Things could have been _hot _just around that left crag and nobody would have known until they walked into it.
> 
> And lastly, I sure as hell would not have taken the time to take pictures or video. It was time to **** and get it, not mess with a camera.
> 
> Again, just first thoughts.
> 
> I’m going to edit this and say that they didn’t seem like inexperienced backcountry hikers, either. That might have saved their bacon with the ability to move around in that terrain. Not everybody is so lucky. But again, that just makes me question why they went out there even more.
> 
> I also wonder why the group managing that ground even let someone in that area. No suppression is fine, let it burn, it won’t hurt anybody. But it only won’t hurt anybody if no one is there.


Bolt crk is a hop and a skip from Seattle, loads of morons go traipsing about hiking in these parts, Search and rescue does regular fly overs for lost injured hikers, its daily at a minimum even in crap weather, often times 6 or 7 trips just over my house, let alone the ground based search and rescue teams. and the weather doesn't dissuade them one bit, sunny days bring more of the ignorant goons. 
DNR is pretty sure the fire is lightning caused, so it could of been smoldering for a week or more before going full burn, no one had any idea until Sat morning there was even a fire up there. so these poor hikers were caught with no notice of any fires.


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## slowp

catbuster said:


> So this is all armchair quarterbacking, which I don’t like, but I’ll make a couple comments
> 
> First and foremost… _Why would they even go out? _Did they not check fire conditions, or did they just go out anyway? I don’t get it. I wouldn’t want to take my crew out there, much less even consider going out there as two people with just hiking stuff that burns, melts and not have a shelter.
> 
> The boulder field on the left @ 1:33 in would have been a decent place to hang out. It had some space, a big escarpment on one side (I don’t know if it was the fire side, but if the fire was burning up that way it would have provided a lot of protection). It doesn’t appear like it would create a chimney effect and cook you either. But, they were well past that when they saw the fire and were probably smart not to try to back track down there, because they would have been overrun before they got there.
> 
> 1:46 has less fuel load, but those draws get hot air cooking through them and even with little fuel load it can be game over.
> 
> Where they stopped was a decent spot. And they should have stayed there for a while before they started moving… I think. Moving down the dry creek bed they did was really stupid. They didn’t know where the fire was, and unlike South Canyon, it wasn’t their only option to prevent getting cooked… Again, I think.
> 
> The fire chased them down the hill, and the spot at 8:30 was the _best _place they had to stay. And yet they went back into the woods. I don’t get it. Things could have been _hot _just around that left crag and nobody would have known until they walked into it.
> 
> And lastly, I sure as hell would not have taken the time to take pictures or video. It was time to **** and get it, not mess with a camera.
> 
> Again, just first thoughts.
> 
> I’m going to edit this and say that they didn’t seem like inexperienced backcountry hikers, either. That might have saved their bacon with the ability to move around in that terrain. Not everybody is so lucky. But again, that just makes me question why they went out there even more.
> 
> I also wonder why the group managing that ground even let someone in that area. No suppression is fine, let it burn, it won’t hurt anybody. But it only won’t hurt anybody if no one is there.


I think it was on Forest Service ground. They can't stop people from going in. I mean, E. Germany couldn't stop people from escaping to W. Germany so how is the FS, which has been understaffed for some time, going to keep folks out. 

It's also Western WA. which is a horrible place for fires to start. It was too windy for air attack and a helicopter had tried to get to those guys earlier but it was too windy. It's been the classic east wind conditions that have historically started "stand replacement" fires every two to three hundred years. It's the Doug-fir ecosystem that nukes the climax species. Think of a 150+ tall tree crowning out in a windy, dry forest. It moves fast. Then, digging line in a foot or more of duff--decomposing logs and branches. You've got steep drainages to act as chimneys, what could be worse? 

Crews aren't as dumb as we were and will not take risks on steep ground anymore. I don't blame them. I mean, we even used firehose as a climbing "rope" and did firehose belays--equipment thrown down, radio up and ask if the hose was connected, and then grab on and go down the cliffy stuff. Kind of stupid.


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## northmanlogging

Well to go along with the theme of morons being were they shouldn't be. 
About 50% of the folks told to evacuate have decided to die on their hill of stubbornness, or they are waiting for the very last second, I don't think they comprehend that there is literally ONE WAY in or out of that area, a janky 2 lane hwy with horrible traffic on good days, there are no connecting logging roads, no secret bat cave exits, those are all on fire. Index to Sultan the only way through is HWY 2, and east bound is currently closed BECAUSE ITS ON FIRE...
This normal for fire response? 

I guess they could take the rail road... that parallels hwy 2, but only if they have a speeder or a bicycle.


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## Sierra_rider

northmanlogging said:


> Well to go along with the theme of morons being were they shouldn't be.
> About 50% of the folks told to evacuate have decided to die on their hill of stubbornness, or they are waiting for the very last second, I don't think they comprehend that there is literally ONE WAY in or out of that area, a janky 2 lane hwy with horrible traffic on good days, there are no connecting logging roads, no secret bat cave exits, those are all on fire. Index to Sultan the only way through is HWY 2, and east bound is currently closed BECAUSE ITS ON FIRE...
> This normal for fire response?
> 
> I guess they could take the rail road... that parallels hwy 2, but only if they have a speeder or a bicycle.



It seems like the general public either over or underestimates what fire does/is like. A lot of my neighbors think every fire is like a running crown fire in timber and are scared every time someone fires up a gas grill lol. 

On the flip side, there are quite a few people that think we can just spray water and put the fire out, no matter the intensity. I can't tell you how many people I've had to deal with over the years that have called me a ***** or wonder why we can't "just put the fire out." These are often the people that stay and then freak out once the fire gets there. 

I had a close call myself, a couple years ago in a timber fire, when a resident refused to leave until the fire was basically bumping their house. They then got seriously burned trying to leave and I melted the side of an engine getting them out.


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## mountainguyed67

slowp said:


> We don't have much in the way of law enforcement here.



During the Creek Fire there were fire trucks and law enforcement from all over the valley up there right away, and before long they were from all over the state.

Clovis is a city down in the valley.



Madera is also a city down in the valley.


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## northmanlogging

I posted a similar thing on FB and someone insisted that folks are staying home to prevent thieves from looting their homes... they don't realize that the hwy is closed, and there are fire fighters and cops everywhere... So I'd imagine that anyone doing any thieving probably lives up there and has smelled a golden opportunity to get a their neighbors big screen tv or some S.


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## slowp

northmanlogging said:


> I posted a similar thing on FB and someone insisted that folks are staying home to prevent thieves from looting their homes... they don't realize that the hwy is closed, and there are fire fighters and cops everywhere... So I'd imagine that anyone doing any thieving probably lives up there and has smelled a golden opportunity to get a their neighbors big screen tv or some S.


Could be. Or they don't have insurance. It's raining here. Not a lot but enough that it is dripping off the roof.


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## slowp

As for law enforcement, we have 40, 000 people in a county that is just above 5000 sq. miles. The sheriff's dept. is 30 people, our town of 5000 has a two person police force, the tribe has a few cops, but there are not many. Most of the towns contract with the sheriff dept. for law enforcement. The majority of residents are of the we don't want to pay taxes mentality so we have what can be paid for. 

At this time, there are areas with a higher priority and a heck of a lot more people to worry about than a backwater rural area. Towns have been evacuated and major highways are closed. Our area isn't that important.


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## atpchas

Pretty busy in eastern Oregon and Idaho:





Smoky Fires Rage in the Northwest


Though summer is approaching its calendar end, the scorching weather of the 2022 season has left many forests primed to burn.




earthobservatory.nasa.gov


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## slowp

Goodness. There is a flood watch for this area starting tomorrow afternoon. Heavy rain is forecast. We shall find out. 

Maybe it will end the fire and smoke season?


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## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> Goodness. There is a flood watch for this area starting tomorrow afternoon. Heavy rain is forecast. We shall find out.
> 
> Maybe it will end the fire and smoke season?


we got a taste of rain last night, not enough to do anything, still digging dust on my road project today... I think the porch got damp, but then it was dry as a jalapeno fart by day break.


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## northmanlogging

Bolt Crk update, 8000+ acres, 2% containment, no air support cause winds, and the monkeys still haven't evacuated... Winds have "shifted" so the smoke isn't as bad here.
Its some steep ground up that way, Mt Barring you can see from I-5 is pretty much a 90deg cow face, the other side of the valley isn't much better.


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## Trailsawyer

northmanlogging said:


> we got a taste of rain last night, not enough to do anything, still digging dust on my road project today... I think the porch got damp, but then it was dry as a jalapeno fart by day break.


SW Washington got "rain" as well - .04" ! 
At least it broke our 66 day dry spell!


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## Burning man

mountainguyed67 said:


> During the Creek Fire there were fire trucks and law enforcement from all over the valley up there right away, and before long they were from all over the state.
> 
> Clovis is a city down in the valley.
> View attachment 1016548
> 
> 
> Madera is also a city down in the valley.
> View attachment 1016549



Even Huron sent an officer. I met very nice photo journalist from Pennsylvania who was trying to get to fire. I remember the first full day sheriffs and CHP chasing rvs and rigs that decided to try and go the back way by mono wind casino after being told to turn around on the 4 lane.

They could clearly see what I was seeing because I could see them.
l


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## Burning man

atpchas said:


> I know it's sped up, but damn!




Generated quite the rotation into the evening.


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## mountainguyed67

Burning man said:


> I remember the first full day sheriffs and CHP chasing rvs and rigs that decided to try and go the back way by mono wind casino after being told to turn around on the 4 lane.



I left via Providence Creek Road and Trimmer Springs Road the first Saturday. I had the benefit of being directly with the Forest Service OHV Manager and his crew that day, and I knew they weren’t even letting F.S. come up. Anyone that left couldn’t come back. Random campers were in disbelief when I told them, people couldn’t believe it was that bad. One couple was waiting for their friend to come back and get his second trailer, even though I told them no one was being allowed up the 4 lane.


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## PEK

mountainguyed67 said:


> I left via Providence Creek Road and Trimmer Springs Road the first Saturday. I had the benefit of being directly with the Forest Service OHV Manager and his crew that day, and I knew they weren’t even letting F.S. come up. Anyone that left couldn’t come back. Random campers were in disbelief when I told them, people couldn’t believe it was that bad. One couple was waiting for their friend to come back and get his second trailer, even though I told them no one was being allowed up the 4 lane.


My heart goes out to all the people affected by these fires, the emergency crews, police and medics do one hell of a job.
It is the uncertanty of where the fires will move next.
Take care.


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## Timothy Love

Unpredictable winds, fire clouds that spawn lightning, and flames that leap over firebreaks are confounding efforts to fight the blaze


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