# Echo CS-490 DEAD after 11.5 months?



## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

Hi all,

Long time lurker who just joined. I'm not a professional, but do a fair amount of sawing mainly for firewood and storm cleanup around my property. Thanks for the add. I just got off the phone with my local small engine guy, and he gave me the bad news that my Echo Cs-490 has scored engine cylinders and is not worth fixing. Up until a month ago, I was singing this saws praises and planning on buying the 680 during the next dealer days.

Background:
Last October 30, we had a very bad windstorm and I used it as an excuse to buy a second saw (other is stihl MS270) so that we could have two people cutting. I bought it stock from Home Depot, and I've used the heck out of it for the better part of a year. I run pre-mix most of the time and mix echo oil with premium gas when I am burning through lots. It's probably had about 6-7 gallons of gas through it, and I am really good about keeping gas fresh and sta-bilzed. About a month ago, it started bogging down and stalling. I put the Echo tune up kit on it, but this did not resolve my issues. So, I took it to the local guy who informed me that the cylinders were scored. 

Dealing with Echo:
I called echo corporate and they informed me that the issue was almost certainly bad gas, which wasn't covered. They then informed me that I would have to drive it to a dealership and pay $40 to get it diagnosed. At which point, it would probably be $40 to be told I was SOL. I had an honest conversation with the dealer, and he said that it was unlikely they'd be able to warranty it unless they found some obvious defect. I actually appreciate the dealer and think he is kind of in a tough spot in this situation. He did say that he'd apply the $40 to a new saw purchase if it cam e to that.

Yes, yes, the simplest solution is the right solution most the time, BUT...
Anything is possible, but I really don't think this is a case of bad/straight gas for me. I am very careful about which cans have what gas. I have only 1 single gallon can on my property for mixed gas, and the rest are 5 gallons for straight gas. I checked the saw, and it has mixed gas in it. I checked the 4 other 2 cycle engines on my property, some still have gas from the last mixed batch, and they all have mixed gas in them. None of my other engines are acting up, including an echo string trimmer. I've never lent this saw out and I am the only one who uses it. If they said the problem was that I've been running it too hard in stump, etc, I'd believe them. But, I don't believe I ran straight gas.

So...at this point, I am out $55 for the tune up kit and the local repair guys time. I am looking at spending another $40 to be likely told I am SOL by the dealer. Has anybody had any experience with this. The local guy said he used to be a warranty dealer for Echo, and he suggested I push for a "warranty modification." 

The only silver lining is that I might be getting the MS391 sooner than expected.

Thanks,


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## MontanaResident (Oct 18, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> The only silver lining is that I might be getting the MS391 sooner than expected.



Then this is a good thing.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

If my toyota blew up and I got a BMW, that would be a good thing, too...except for the payments.


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## homemade (Oct 18, 2018)

Could be an air leak. Do a pressure and vac test to see.


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## MontanaResident (Oct 18, 2018)

It is getting to the point, that almost nothing can be repaired anymore by a mechanic at a dealer. Labor rates are insane. But if you have the time and some basic tools and use aftermarket parts, it can be very inexpensive to fix and get going again.

You can get an aftermarket entire engine for a hundred. Or go with a piston/cylinder kit for under 50. If buying a new saw is a financial problem, DIY is an option.


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## scottr (Oct 18, 2018)

LUS , have you removed the muffler to look at the piston , ring , and cylinder for yourself ?


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## undee70ss (Oct 18, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> . About a month ago, it started bogging down and stalling. I put the Echo tune up kit on it, but this did not resolve my issues. So, I took it to the local guy who informed me that the cylinders were scored.


The bigger question is why it scored, there are other reasons besides straight gassing that can score pistons. You didn’t mention what ratio mix you were using, but tuned for a 50 to 1, and if you used let’s say 32 to 1, saw will run hotter and leaner and can score a piston if not re tuned for the different mix. There are many other reasons too. When a saw starts acting up, it’s best to stop using it and find out why before damage begins. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

undee70ss said:


> The bigger question is why it scored, there are other reasons besides straight gassing that can score pistons. You didn’t mention what ratio mix you were using, but tuned for a 50 to 1, and if you used let’s say 32 to 1, saw will run hotter and leaner and can score a piston if not re tuned for the different mix. There are many other reasons too. When a saw starts acting up, it’s best to stop using it and find out why before damage begins.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was using universal pre-mix (good for 40 and 50:1 according to bottle) and the little bottles of echo 50:1 oil with premium gas station gas with stabil added.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

scottr said:


> LUS , have you removed the muffler to look at the piston , ring , and cylinder for yourself ?


I have not, but I wouldn't know what to look for. The local mechanic is reputable and does not sell saws, so I think he's being honest. I may try to rebuild this during the cold part of the winter. If nothing else, it'll be a learning experience.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 18, 2018)

Echo don’t seem to last the test of time from what I’ve seen ... get urself the STIHL 391 or Better yet look around for a used 361; 044 and be done with it !!!


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## Chainsaw Jim (Oct 18, 2018)

It should be covered by the warranty. Take it and the receipt back to the home depot and they will most likely give you a replacement.


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 18, 2018)

Soon the Echo fans will be along to tell us how much better Echo is than Stihl or the others. According to them my Stihl top handles should be broken all the time and pieces falling off. It’s funny in 22 years of tree work i can’t think of a time when any of that has happened but had 355T plastic pieces break twice within a year. However, i do have a Echo 2511T that i love using.

Could be lots of reasons for a scored cylinder


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

Chainsaw Jim said:


> It should be covered by the warranty. Take it and the receipt back to the home depot and they will most likely give you a replacement.


Do you think they will even after 11 months?


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 18, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> Do you think they will even after 11 months?



Hell, they should the warranty is 5 years


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## Chainsaw Jim (Oct 18, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> Do you think they will even after 11 months?


They would be guilty of false advertising if they didn't.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 18, 2018)

KenJax Tree said:


> Hell, they should the warranty is 5 years


Yah .... 5 year warranty my foot ! They always say “unit run with bad gas” NOT covered ! Scam ... buy a STIHL ; Pay more initially than echo - enjoy YEARS of use as long as you maintain it properly!!!


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## Chainsaw Jim (Oct 18, 2018)

F- that... dunk that sumbich in a bucket of good bright colored mix before you take it in.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Oct 18, 2018)

HD will only honor taking it back 90 days, you have to buy the extra warranty for longer coverage. The Echo warranty is a joke. I had a 400 break a piston after 10 months, Echo denied the warranty on the fact I had a champion plug in instead of the issued NGK. I love my Echo saws, just don’t expect any consideration from Echo, they’re a joke on warranty. If you buy another Echo, mod the muffler, remove limiter caps on carb and retune, don’t worry about “voiding” the warranty, there is none.


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## RandyinTN (Oct 18, 2018)

Frank Rizzo said:


> Yah .... 5 year warranty my foot ! They always say “unit run with bad gas” NOT covered ! Scam ... buy a STIHL ; Pay more initially than echo - enjoy YEARS of use as long as you maintain it properly!!!



How do you know this to be true about them not covering a warranty?


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 18, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> How do you know this to be true about them not covering a warranty?


How do you know this not to be true ?


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## Bobby Kirbos (Oct 18, 2018)

LUS,
If the cylinder is indeed scored, it sounds like the saw may have been running lean and not getting enough lubrication. Echo saws are set notoriously lean out of the box. Did you ever retune the saw or did you run it with the factory carb settings?


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 18, 2018)

Oh ! Canada


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

Bobby Kirbos said:


> LUS,
> If the cylinder is indeed scored, it sounds like the saw may have been running lean and not getting enough lubrication. Echo saws are set notoriously lean out of the box. Did you ever retune the saw or did you run it with the factory carb settings?



I have not done anything to it other than add fuel, bar oil, and sharpen the chain except put an Echo tune up kit on it once it started giving me problems.


RandyinTN said:


> How do you know this to be true about them not covering a warranty?


Well, Randy, they pretty much told me that the only cause was bad gas and they were very unlikely to cover it. They told me it would be $40 to find out for sure.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 18, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> I have not done anything to it other than add fuel, bar oil, and sharpen the chain except put an Echo tune up kit on it once it started giving me problems.
> 
> Well, Randy, they pretty much told me that the only cause was bad gas and they were very unlikely to cover it. They told me it would be $40 to find out for sure.


Another Rip-off-ski


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## NeSurfcaster (Oct 18, 2018)

Air leak? Might be warrantied when they "diagnosis it", if they pressure/vacuum test it.


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## holeycow (Oct 18, 2018)

But wait! Echo has a 5 year warranty.



There are many accounts of them not honouring a warranty. I have no direct experience with this.

I did what “everybody” else does and pulled the limiters and did a light muffler mod before my cs590 had even 15 minutes on it, thereby voiding the “warranty”.

Apparently, that’s what you do with Echo saws, as the Echo cheerleading squad purports.

Not to mention the strategy of defrauding the “warranty” as suggested by the “squad” in case the “warranty” is ever required.

Ridiculous.

However, I am liking my cs590. 

Not that it is anything particularly special. Just good value.


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## HarleyT (Oct 18, 2018)

Just take out your phone, start taking movies, and call everybody a racist.
That has worked for years!!!


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## Big Red Oaks 4 me (Oct 18, 2018)

Did you notice the saw "screaming" at higher rpm's before it blew-up? Could be that the high-speed mixture screw was in too far, but that's just another possibility.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

holeycow said:


> However, I am liking my cs590.
> 
> Not that it is anything particularly special. Just good value.



I was liking the 490, too. So much so I was going to buy a CS-680.

I don't need anything special, just something the runs.


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## holeycow (Oct 18, 2018)

threatening to charge you 40 bucks to tell you it’s not covered is pretty sad. It will likely take only 10 minutes to accurately diagnose the problem. I guess they have no interest in selling you another saw.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 18, 2018)

holeycow said:


> threatening to charge you 40 bucks to tell you it’s not covered is pretty sad. It will likely take only 10 minutes to accurately diagnose the problem. I guess they have no interest in selling you another saw.



It's not as linear as that although the end effect is the same for me. 

Basically, Echo Corp. is different than an Echo Dealer. An Echo dealer is a private business that is contracted to sell/service Echo. Echo Corp. requires that you process the warranty claim through a dealer. In other words, you need to pay a private business to do the warranty claim for you. The $40 fee is 1/2hr labor to that private business. If they find that it is a warrantied issue, Echo pays the dealer. If they find that is not a warrantied issue, I pay the dealer and am still stuck with a junk saw. 

The dealer is good in my opinion. We have a good history. Basically, he said he can do everything he can to help but its up to Echo Corp, and he said the odds are slim.


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## holeycow (Oct 18, 2018)

It is pretty simple actually; Echo nor their dealer has any interest in retaining a customer.

Edit; I guess the dealer did offer a discount on a new saw.


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## ericm979 (Oct 18, 2018)

I bet Home Despot does not check the carb adjustment before their saws go out the door.


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## quotedraven (Oct 18, 2018)

Any echo dealer can’t charge to look at it under warranty. I had bar nuts that kept stripping out where they mount into the saw was repaired twice under warranty no charge. I would take to a real saw shop.


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## MontanaResident (Oct 18, 2018)

Like HD has a master Echo mechanic in the back gold-plating all Echo saws before they a lovingly sent to their new forever home. 



ericm979 said:


> I bet Home Despot does not check the carb adjustment before their saws go out the door.


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## SteveSr (Oct 18, 2018)

FWIW, What would adding fuel stabilizer do to the mix? I bet it doesn't burn/cool like gasoline therefor making the mix even leaner. So if you take a borderline lean saw setup for 50:1 and then run 40:1 and possibly with fuel stabilizer and it pushes it over the edge.

Another consideration is what was the ambient temperature the saw was most run at? Cold temperatures mean denser air and leaner tuning. If a saw is tuned ant 70 and then run at 20 degrees that will make a noticeable difference in tuning.


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## homemade (Oct 19, 2018)

I’d fill the saw with echo pre mixed fuel and pull it over a few times to get it sucked up into the carb. 

Now tell them to prove it was a bad gas problem. 

And what makes the lower priced saws so hard to work on, is the cost if suitable replacement parts and shop labor rate. If a cylinder, piston, oil seals, gaskets, spark plug, and the two to three hours of labor get close to 2/3 the cost of a new saw, it will be deemed “totaled”. Even an echo, Stihl, dolmar, pick your flavor dealership with certified mechanics in back, most of the time can’t purchase aftermarket parts to keep cost down. It would go against the dealership contracts.


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## holeycow (Oct 19, 2018)

Throwaway saws. Like most things these days.


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## bowtechmadman (Oct 19, 2018)

What mix ratio are you running? Who tuned the saw? How sharp is the chain kept? Please forgive my ignorance but what does an Echo Tune Up kit consist of????


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## CR888 (Oct 19, 2018)

I'd get some advice from resident echo dealer members & perhaps get the saw on a trusted bench. My guess is that saw is not beyond repair or successful warranty claim.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 19, 2018)

Well, I put on my apple pie nice attitude today and brought the saw to Home Depot in hopes that they'd take care of a good customer. They basically told me to get F*&^ed. They told me they'd send it out for a fee, and the turn around was 3 months. At least the local dealer is only a 2 week turn around and they will apply the labor charge to a new saw if I need one. So, its at the local Echo dealership, which, interestingly enough, doesn't sell echo saws. They only deal in Stihl. I have done lots of business with them, and I feel that it's my best chance. Also, they will be who I buy a replacement Stihl from, so the $40 credit is good.



holeycow said:


> It is pretty simple actually; Echo nor their dealer has any interest in retaining a customer.
> 
> Edit; I guess the dealer did offer a discount on a new saw.


To be clear, this was bought from the Home Depot, and the dealer had no part in the initial transaction. 



SteveSr said:


> FWIW, What would adding fuel stabilizer do to the mix? I bet it doesn't burn/cool like gasoline therefor making the mix even leaner. So if you take a borderline lean saw setup for 50:1 and then run 40:1 and possibly with fuel stabilizer and it pushes it over the edge.
> 
> Another consideration is what was the ambient temperature the saw was most run at? Cold temperatures mean denser air and leaner tuning. If a saw is tuned ant 70 and then run at 20 degrees that will make a noticeable difference in tuning.


I run universal premixed which is good for both 40 and 50:1 according to the bottle. Other than that, I'll run echo little bottles of oil and premium gas station gas with stabil. I've been told I should/shouldn't have run it with so many different things that I think it's just a brainstorming at this point. But, I think that so long as I run fresh gas with an API 2-cycle or premix rated for the application, it should not be an issue. I am following the echo fueling recommendations.



bowtechmadman said:


> What mix ratio are you running? Who tuned the saw? How sharp is the chain kept? Please forgive my ignorance but what does an Echo Tune Up kit consist of????


Nobody tuned the saw. It came out of the box and ran well. I did not remove the red limiter caps, so theoretically it should've been kept within safe parameters. No porting/modding etc. The chain is maitenance filed frequently, and it produces nice ribbons of sawdust. A tune up kit is: spark plug, fuel filter, air filter. 



CR888 said:


> I'd get some advice from resident echo dealer members & perhaps get the saw on a trusted bench. My guess is that saw is not beyond repair or successful warranty claim.


My local dealer said it is only lightly scored and I could probably run it on a heavy oil gas and get some life out of it. I'm hoping that the dealer can just warranty me and make me whole again.


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 19, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> If my toyota blew up and I got a BMW, that would be a good thing, too...except for the payments.



nah, that would be a bad thing! I'd take a Toyota over a BMW any day.


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## Jacklefty (Oct 19, 2018)

KenJax Tree said:


> Hell, they should the warranty is 5 years


They will not give you a new one if it’s after 90 days. They will have it checked in to their own repair facility and repair it. Not replace it. If it is found under warranty it will be free and you should get your money back for diagnostic. 

I am a Home Depot repair tech and that is the Home Depot policy on gas power equipment. 

The warranty is through echo if you should talk to anyone I would talk to echo directly to be honest to see what they say. Most likely they will say take it to your nearest Home Depot repair faciclity.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 19, 2018)

Jacklefty said:


> They will not give you a new one if it’s after 90 days. They will have it checked in to their own repair facility and repair it. Not replace it. If it is found under warranty it will be free and you should get your money back for diagnostic.
> 
> I am a Home Depot repair tech and that is the Home Depot policy on gas power equipment.
> 
> The warranty is through echo if you should talk to anyone I would talk to echo directly to be honest to see what they say. Most likely they will say take it to your nearest Home Depot repair faciclity.



This was exactly my experience. Telling me to pay and wait three months to see if Echo decides to honor their warranty is basically saying "you're on your own" in my opinion. I understand that it's their policy, but it is not standing behind a product they sell.

It's at a local, echo dealer now. 

Do you do Echo work or just in the in store stuff.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 19, 2018)

JRHAWK9 said:


> nah, that would be a bad thing! I'd take a Toyota over a BMW any day.


My 2000 tundra hauled 1600lbs of concrete and 11lbs of dead weight saw today. LOL.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 19, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> This was exactly my experience. Telling me to pay and wait three months to see if Echo decides to honor their warranty is basically saying "you're on your own" in my opinion. I understand that it's their policy, but it is not standing behind a product they sell.
> 
> It's at a local, echo dealer now.
> 
> Do you do Echo work or just in the in store stuff.


Yah ... that’s caca ... pay and have to wait 3 months to see if Echo “decides” to repair/replace ? That’s a load of horse-chit ! What if ya need the saw for work ? I could see a week or two max but 3 months and that’s pending Echos decision ... I’d steer clear of Echo if what you say are the facts !


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## mountainlake (Oct 19, 2018)

You can bet your carb was gunked with shitty fuel, when a saw doesn't run right QUIT running it and clean the carb. This will happen to any Stihl you buy. 100% your fault. Steve


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## Marley5 (Oct 19, 2018)

Guy just brought a Stihl by the shop.....says it's not running right.
After a few questions.....it's running last years fuel, extremely dull chain and look at this filter. 
Echo and Stihl are both great saws but must be taken care of.


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 19, 2018)

mountainlake said:


> You can bet your carb was gunked with shitty fuel, when a saw doesn't run right QUIT running it and clean the carb. This will happen to any Stihl you buy. 100% your fault. Steve





Marley5 said:


> Guy just brought a Stihl by the shop.....says it's not running right.
> After a few questions.....it's running last years fuel, extremely dull chain and look at this filter.
> Echo and Stihl are both great saws but must be taken care of.View attachment 680623



So, honest question...looking back at what I've told you in the initial post, what could I've done differently and what's your definition of shitty gas? I know you're saying that I should've stopped using it when I noticed problems, but I essentially did. I shelved the saw when i noticed the bogging/stalling until I received the tune up kit, which took a week. Then, I didn't use it for a week. Then, I brought it back out, and used it for about 5 minutes until I realized the issue wasn't resolved. It took a few days to get to the small engine guy. Then, he had it for 8 days before he called with the bad news. When I say I noticed the problem start up a month ago, I was not using it daily. 

Looking back, I changed the factory chain about 6 weeks ago because it just wasn't cutting as well as it used to. I attributed this to a worn out chain as I was still on the original. Maybe, that was the actual start of the problem? But, at that point, the engine seemed fine. 

I know I'm not the most experienced 2 cycle guy, but I am very conscientious with my tools and aware of their behavior and discrepancies. I guess maybe you're just saying chainsaws are fragile beasts?


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## Jacklefty (Oct 19, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> This was exactly my experience. Telling me to pay and wait three months to see if Echo decides to honor their warranty is basically saying "you're on your own" in my opinion. I understand that it's their policy, but it is not standing behind a product they sell.
> 
> It's at a local, echo dealer now.
> 
> Do you do Echo work or just in the in store stuff.


I do. But I haven’t run into a roaches cylinder on an echo yet that was under warranty. Anything deemed fuel related will not be covered unfortunately.


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## mountainlake (Oct 19, 2018)

It only takes one long cut to burn up a saw that is lean, most likely from a gummed up carb. Never had a seal go bad on a Echo yet. Steve


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## SteveSr (Oct 19, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> Looking back, I changed the factory chain about 6 weeks ago because it just wasn't cutting as well as it used to. I attributed this to a worn out chain as I was still on the original. Maybe, that was the actual start of the problem? But, at that point, the engine seemed fine.



Running a dull chain can also put excessive strain on the engine which leads to overheating and the damage that was found. A sharp chain should put out chips and NOT sawdust. If you see sawdust in the air you are past due to sharpen the chain.

Also adding more oil, stabilizer, whatever to the mix will also create a lean condition as the additives displace gasoline possibly leading to overheating and seizure.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Oct 19, 2018)

If 490 comes lean like 590. 
590 I got used from a local was to lean from factory. Had started scoring it. I put the H all the way against the epa stop to fatten it up and was still to lean. Had to remove the stops to get it fat enough.

Then went to muffler mod it and thats when I caught it had started to score. Otherwise would have never known it till she stopped someday.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 19, 2018)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> If 490 comes lean like 590.
> 590 I got used from a local was to lean from factory. Had started scoring it. I put the H all the way against the epa stop to fatten it up and was still to lean. Had to remove the stops to get it fat enough.
> 
> Then went to muffler mod it and thats when I caught it had started to score. Otherwise would have never known it till she stopped someday.


Yeppers ... not enough adjustment provided to properly tune the saw ... I’m sure the saw manufacturers are WELL aware of this and count on the ignorance of the customer to play the “it was run on bad fuel” game and not honor the warranty ! The question is why? Hmm ... free bananas to the 1st correct answer !


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

All new saws need to be tuned thanks to the EPA who makes them set them lean to get by emissions. Steve


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> (it started bogging down and stalling)



From the OP points to a gummed up carb as it was running good. BAD fuel is what caused it. Steve


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## holeycow (Oct 20, 2018)




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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

Holycow, you have no idea what your talking about. Have you ever worked on a saw?? Can YOU explain why it would start running bad after 11 months. Steve


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## holeycow (Oct 20, 2018)

No, you?

You will defend your beloved Echo against all.


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## holeycow (Oct 20, 2018)

Oh, and it’s Holeycow to you.


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

If you actually knew anything about saws or fixed them and ran most brands you might not sit there knocking saws, Stihl. Husky and Dolmar all make good saws. Steve


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## holeycow (Oct 20, 2018)

mountainlake said:


> All new saws need to be tuned thanks to the EPA who makes them set them lean to get by emissions. Steve



This is the problem. And apparently Echo is particularly prone to this.

The more you talk the more you will shoot yourself in the foot. 

Carry on!


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

Yes Echo is or has been the worst at sending them out lean, do you see anything wrong with tuning a saw
[Can YOU explain why it would start running bad after 11 months), Being as smart as you think you are answer this question. Steve


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## holeycow (Oct 20, 2018)

Mountainflake, you come across to me as a genius.

You already explained it. You have it all figured out.


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## RandyinTN (Oct 20, 2018)

If the 490 runs lean from the factory can any of you guys who say they need to run richer post a DIY video on how to make it run richer?


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 20, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> If the 490 runs lean from the factory can any of you guys who say they need to run richer post a DIY video on how to make it run richer?


Gain access to the carb adj screws ... take a drywall screw and remove the limiters ... now you have FULL adjustment available


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## RandyinTN (Oct 20, 2018)

Sounds good. How do you adjust them?


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

holeycow said:


> Mountainflake, you come across to me as a genius.
> 
> You already explained it. You have it all figured out.




I for sure have way more figured out than you and it doesn't take a genius. Steve


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 20, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> Sounds good. How do you adjust them?


Such that the saws Rip !


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## wcorey (Oct 20, 2018)

mountainlake said:


> You can bet your carb was gunked with shitty fuel, when a saw doesn't run right QUIT running it and clean the carb. This will happen to any Stihl you buy. 100% your fault. Steve



So... The op clearly states in the first post that the saw is less than a year old, has has had 6-7 gallons of premix or echo oil/mix through it, is very conscious of mix being fresh, etc.
Sounds like it likely gets pretty regular use. What's the chance that in that time it sat for the number of months it takes to have the fuel go that bad? Possible but not probable.

Then you admit the saws commonly come in set lean from the factory and should be tuned by the dealer, which is very unlikely to be done by Home Depot, where the saw was purchased.

And you immediately jump to a 100 percent conclusion that it's bad gas/gunked carb/user error...
You're a long time Echo cheerleader...
And you expect to be taken seriously? 
Where's the credibility here...?


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## Bret4207 (Oct 20, 2018)

Just a couple thoughts. I haven't had any good experiences with Stabil. Others swear by it, but it's been a disaster for me. 2nd thing, I own several Echos, I like them and they've given great service. Ive never owned a new one, but I've read that the owners manual specifically states you're supposed to bring the saw back to the dealer after the first X number of hours and have it re-tuned. Might check your manual and see if that's true which would give me thought that they might indeed be lean out of the factory.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 20, 2018)

Bret4207 said:


> Just a couple thoughts. I haven't had any good experiences with Stabil. Others swear by it, but it's been a disaster for me. 2nd thing, I own several Echos, I like them and they've given great service. Ive never owned a new one, but I've read that the owners manual specifically states you're supposed to bring the saw back to the dealer after the first X number of hours and have it re-tuned. Might check your manual and see if that's true which would give me thought that they might indeed be lean out of the factory.


If anything the saw should be broken-in with a slightly RICHER mixture ... then slowly fine - tune for max power


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

wcorey said:


> So... The op clearly states in the first post that the saw is less than a year old, has has had 6-7 gallons of premix or echo oil/mix through it, is very conscious of mix being fresh, etc.
> Sounds like it likely gets pretty regular use. What's the chance that in that time it sat for the number of months it takes to have the fuel go that bad? Possible but not probable.
> 
> Then you admit the saws commonly come in set lean from the factory and should be tuned by the dealer, which is very unlikely to be done by Home Depot, where the saw was purchased.
> ...




Read my replys, if was just set lean from the start why would it run good for 11 months and then start to show symptoms of being lean. THE CARB GOT GUNKED UP FROM SITTING. . Unless he leaned it out on purpose . You and Holycow tell me what happened. If thers any logic to it I'll listen Steve


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## RandyinTN (Oct 20, 2018)

Frank Rizzo said:


> Such that the saws Rip !



Not very helpful. Plenty of people rag on Echos saying they are lean but then never pony up and offer a real solution on how to adjust them. If you truly do know what you are talking about why dont you tell us novice users how to adjust the screws.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 20, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> Not very helpful. Plenty of people rag on Echos saying they are lean but then never pony up and offer a real solution on how to adjust them. If you truly do know what you are talking about why dont you tell us novice users how to adjust the screws.


I just gave you a link to a video that shows how to remove the limiters so you can properly tune the saw !!! .... I can’t tell you EXACTLY where to turn the l and h to tune your saw ... too many variables ... clockwise is leaner (less fuel) ; counter-clockwise is richer (more fuel ) ... there are videos on this site or utube that will help ya ... if you are going to run a carbureted saw in varying temps and elevations it “Wood” be in your (and your saws’) best interest to learn this skill !!!


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

I'll tell you, pull the limiter caps, grind the tabs off on a bench grinder which take about 2 seconds, put them back on, open up the high about 2 turns, then adjust the low so when you pull the trigger it accelerate good, no bogging, with the high 2 turns out it should be plenty rich a 4 stroking hard. then get some big wood and gradually turn the high in until it cuts the fastest. It should 4 stroke NOT scream when held wide open out of the cut for a couple of second and should clean up as soon as you put a load to the saw. You might have to readjust the low and idle speed after adjusting the high. With the low adjusted rich enough it should start great and should need very little warm up if and to rev up good. Any other questions just ask. All saws adjust the same but most older ones only need the screws somewhere from 1 1/2 to 7/8 turn out and maybe 1/8 of a turn at a time newer saw like a CS400 usually end up around 3 turns out. No bs here just what I know. Steve


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## mountainlake (Oct 20, 2018)

Frank Rizzo said:


> I just gave you a link to a video that shows how to remove the limiters so you can properly tune the saw !!! .... I can’t tell you EXACTLY where to turn the l and h to tune your saw ... too many variables ... clockwise is leaner (less fuel) ; counter-clockwise is richer (more fuel ) ... there are videos on this site or utube that will help ya ... if you are going to run a carbureted saw in varying temps and elevations it “Wood” be in your (and your saws’) best interest to learn this skill !!!




100% right. learn how to tune, you will not run a lean saw then. Steve


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## ericm979 (Oct 20, 2018)

Cut the tabs off the limiter caps and put them back on. That makes it easier to find the screw slots with a screwdriver. You'll see why when you take them off. 
I removed the carb so I could see what I was doing.


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## NeSurfcaster (Oct 20, 2018)

What good is a 5 year warranty if you have to void the warranty to get a year out of the saw? Evidently a scored piston automatically means bad fuel?


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## RandyinTN (Oct 20, 2018)

mountainlake said:


> I'll tell you, pull the limiter caps, grind the tabs off on a bench grinder which take about 2 seconds, put them back on, open up the high about 2 turns, then adjust the low so when you pull the trigger it accelerate good, no bogging, with the high 2 turns out it should be plenty rich a 4 stroking hard. then get some big wood and gradually turn the high in until it cuts the fastest. It should 4 stroke NOT scream when held wide open out of the cut for a couple of second and should clean up as soon as you put a load to the saw. You might have to readjust the low and idle speed after adjusting the high. With the low adjusted rich enough it should start great and should need very little warm up if and to rev up good. Any other questions just ask. All saws adjust the same but most older ones only need the screws somewhere from 1 1/2 to 7/8 turn out and maybe 1/8 of a turn at a time newer saw like a CS400 usually end up around 3 turns out. No bs here just what I know. Steve



Thank you. Very helpful post. Much better than someone else just posting you better learn how to do it. Which screw is high, which one is low?


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## Deleted member 149229 (Oct 20, 2018)

RandyinTN said:


> Thank you. Very helpful post. Much better than someone else just posting you better learn how to do it. Which screw is high, which one is low?


It’s marked on the body of the saw above the access holes.


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## mountainlake (Oct 21, 2018)

NeSurfcaster said:


> What good is a 5 year warranty if you have to void the warranty to get a year out of the saw? Evidently a scored piston automatically means bad fuel?



You don't void the warranty by removing the caps, new ones cost around 70 cents, if you need warranty work just put new ones on the saw. Bad fuel gums up the carb which causes the saw to run lean which burns up the piston . there are other reasons why a saw would run lean like a air leak or clogged or broken fuel line but very little chance of that on a 11 month old Echo. As mentioned learn how to tune a saw then you will recognize right away when its running lean and quit running it immediately and fix the problem. Most saws are marked by the adjusting screws H L T going from memory I think the low is on the bottom left, the high on the bottom right and the T which controls the engine speed is on top.. I highly recommend a muff modd on a 490 which requires opening the deflector up , you would need to buy that new if warranty work was need also. To muff modd take the deflector off pull the tube out of the muff and make the hole in the deflector way bigger. Echo clogs up the muff on purpose to get by EPA regs, Steve


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## smokey7 (Oct 21, 2018)

Any chance this is just a tuning problem that took a while to cause damage? As in the tune slowly started to score the piston and the tune was causing the bogging and stalling. In my minds eye i wonder if since its said its lightly scored if one couldn't tune it properly provided the rings are not pinned down my melted aluminum and run it. I have worked on several saws that were lightly scored and some have been heavily scored still running todsy.


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## mountainlake (Oct 21, 2018)

Not to likely it was a tuning problem from the start as it ran good for 11 month then started bogging and running lean. If tuned bad from the start it would have run bad right away. Steve


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## smokey7 (Oct 21, 2018)

Unless it was tuned on the edge.


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## mh9162013 (Oct 21, 2018)

OP: whatever you choose to do, you'll need to confirm the cause of this problem to make sure you're not doing anything wrong. Based on what you've said, it doesn't look like you are. But are you really willing to bet another several hundred dollars on a new saw that you are? I guess only you can make that decision. Either way, I have two suggestions.

First, pay the $40 and have your trusted small engine guy take a look. If you two are good buddies, maybe he'll be able to let you watch his examination or at least walk you through everything he saw, explain the reasons for his observations and answer any questions you may have. You say you trust him, so based on what he tells you, go with that.

Second, you can try and diagnose this stuff yourself. Youtube and Google are your friends (as well as this site) and you can learn a lot. For example, my go-to youtube teacher is Steve's Small Engine Saloon. He even has a post explaining the difference possible causes of piston scoring on chainsaws:


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 21, 2018)

With my 620 it came way lean from the factory. Not sure that it was enough to kill the motor over time, but enough that after 1/4 cut i pulled the caps and retuned.


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## Brent Nowell (Oct 21, 2018)

Wow, this is a very sad and pathetic customer relation story on echo’s behalf.

A guy buys and uses their product under the directions of the manual, it blows up and they claim it was ‘bad gas’ and it’s not thier problem.
Unbelievable! 
What a cop out, a terrible excuse to save company money.

What’s next? Your chain wasn’t sharp enough do warranty is void? 
Saw dust was found around the flywheel thus it overheated?
How about you took out the spark arrester and that’s a modification and no warranty.
Oh wait we just noticed that your saw wasn’t tuned right and you should have known this and it’s not under warranty...

Really???? Isn’t that the dealer and or echos job, a lot of people really only know what the manual tells them and they can’t be blamed for anything beyond it!


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## Bobby Kirbos (Oct 21, 2018)

Brent Nowell said:


> Wow, this is a very sad and pathetic customer relation story on echo’s behalf.
> 
> A guy buys and uses their product under the directions of the manual, it blows up and they claim it was ‘bad gas’ and it’s not thier problem.
> Unbelievable!
> ...


A "dealer" would have tuned it properly before passing it to the customer. From Home Depot, you take the box off the shelf, pay for it, unbox it, fuel it up, and let it rip.

I have a feeling that this is not a new problem. One of my local Echo dealers has a sign on their door "We will not service any equipment purchased from a big box store".

Don't blame Echo for the factory lean tuning. Thank the militant environuts who pressured the EPA to impose these ridiculous regulations - on something that neither the EPA nor the environuts know anything about.


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## mh9162013 (Oct 21, 2018)

Brent Nowell said:


> Wow, this is a very sad and pathetic customer relation story on echo’s behalf.
> 
> A guy buys and uses their product under the directions of the manual, it blows up and they claim it was ‘bad gas’ and it’s not thier problem.
> Unbelievable!
> ...



Part of it is due to poor communication on the dealer/repair shop. My echo dealer told me that removing the guard on a string trimmer voided the echo warranty because (and I'm paraphrasing), "the change in balance of the machine could cause damage to engine. Echo's tools are carefully designed to take every part into consideration, so when one is removed, it can throw everything out of whack and damage the engine."

What he's saying is flat out wrong. Removing the guard on a string trimmer doesn't damage the engine. What's damaging the engine is the guard no longer being able to keep the string line the appropriate length and when the string gets too long, it can put excessive strain on the engine. So it's running a string trimmer with too high a load on the engine via an overly long string that voids the warranty, not removing the guard. But that's not what the Echo guy told me.

I told him Echo has a horrible reputation online with regards to honoring the warranty. He said everything online must be true. I told him that I read about more people complaining about Echo's warranty than Husqvarna or Stihl's. He had no response.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 21, 2018)

It's all smoke and mirrors.
I'm pretty sure there's enough echo saws out there that never had an issue to say they build a durable saw. It was their highest selling point for years. My 620 came off the dealer shelf (also a Stihl dealer) and went through their prep before they handed it to me. Before first startup I checked screw positions and the H was maxed with cap on. It was still lean. You really have to ask yourself where you want to be in this "food chain". I mean if you have a tree service and many saws with backups then I can see relying on a dealer. Saw acts up, put it away and pull out another. Even makes sense financially because time is money. Other then that you fall into 2 categories the way I see it. The first being someone who can tune, trouble shoot and fix it themselves and the other being people who should buy auto tune and rely heavily on the dealer. Personally I can't imagine running any 2 stoke engine (other then maybe a Detroit) without truly knowing what's going on with it. I don't care what tool or what brand, if all you hear is a running engine you are eventually going to have a bad day. This is also why I never lend out even my shittiest saws, even to my most mechanically incline friends. I loan myself out and I do the cutting.


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## cuinrearview (Oct 21, 2018)

NeSurfcaster said:


> What good is a 5 year warranty if you have to void the warranty to get a year out of the saw? Evidently a scored piston automatically means bad fuel?


This is a question that should be answered. I've yet to have an echo on the bench to get to try, but if I wasn't "saw savvy" and relied on a dealer for all service I would be hesitant to go get one after reading this thread. Unless i had a dealer i could trust.

And as far as echos being the most consistently lean saws from the factory, i have to disagree. The Dolmar 5100s holds that title. I'm pretty sure everyone of those, if ran at the advertised 14.5k, would burn up.


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 21, 2018)

Bobby Kirbos said:


> A "dealer" would have tuned it properly before passing it to the customer. From Home Depot, you take the box off the shelf, pay for it, unbox it, fuel it up, and let it rip.
> 
> I have a feeling that this is not a new problem. One of my local Echo dealers has a sign on their door "We will not service any equipment purchased from a big box store".
> 
> Don't blame Echo for the factory lean tuning. Thank the militant environuts who pressured the EPA to impose these ridiculous regulations - on something that neither the EPA nor the environuts know anything about.



He may have the sign but if they’re an authorized dealer for whatever you bought he has to service it.


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## mh9162013 (Oct 21, 2018)

Bobby Kirbos said:


> A "dealer" would have tuned it properly before passing it to the customer. From Home Depot, you take the box off the shelf, pay for it, unbox it, fuel it up, and let it rip.
> 
> I have a feeling that this is not a new problem. One of my local Echo dealers has a sign on their door "We will not service any equipment purchased from a big box store".
> 
> *Don't blame Echo for the factory lean tuning*. Thank the militant environuts who pressured the EPA to impose these ridiculous regulations - on something that neither the EPA nor the environuts know anything about.



If Echo is the only company with overly lean machines, then yes, we can blame Echo. I'm not saying this is the case, but if it were, and no other company had the issue that Echo saws had, then Echo would fully deserve the blame.


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## Marley5 (Oct 21, 2018)

So in essence it's EPA's fault for forcing the hand of saw makers to comply. 

I agree with going through your local dealer for all your 2 cycle needs incase an issue like this should arise....a reputable dealer would have re-tuned after initial break in.

I personally disregard EPA restrictions and muffler mod everything. 
I got a shoe box full of restrictor tubes. Lol


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## Brent Nowell (Oct 21, 2018)

Bobby Kirbos said:


> A "dealer" would have tuned it properly before passing it to the customer. From Home Depot, you take the box off the shelf, pay for it, unbox it, fuel it up, and let it rip.
> 
> I have a feeling that this is not a new problem. One of my local Echo dealers has a sign on their door "We will not service any equipment purchased from a big box store".
> 
> Don't blame Echo for the factory lean tuning. Thank the militant environuts who pressured the EPA to impose these ridiculous regulations - on something that neither the EPA nor the environuts know anything about.



I am blaming echo because they are not warrantying their product. If the dealer made a mistake in the tune that should not be the customers fault, that’s something that echo should cover. They can sort out their own issues internally in regards to the dealer and corporate in terms of moneys lost, don’t let the customer pay for an internal mistake


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## Analyst Man (Oct 21, 2018)

undee70ss said:


> but tuned for a 50 to 1, and if you used let’s say 32 to 1, saw will run hotter and leaner and can score a piston if not re tuned for the different mix.


A saw that requires 50/1 fuel mix will run hotter and leaner if you use 32/1 mix??? I've never heard that, isn't it the other way around?


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## cuinrearview (Oct 21, 2018)

Analyst Man said:


> A saw that requires 50/1 fuel mix will run hotter and leaner if you use 32/1 mix??? I've never heard that, isn't it the other way around?


Less gas in the mix/air=more lean. Often confused with oil to gas in the pre-mix. A lean fuel to air mix will burn hotter.


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## mh9162013 (Oct 21, 2018)

Analyst Man said:


> A saw that requires 50/1 fuel mix will run hotter and leaner if you use 32/1 mix??? I've never heard that, isn't it the other way around?



I'm confused as well. A 50:1 fuel/oil mix is made up of about 98.04% fuel. But a 32:1 fuel/oil mix is only made up of about 96.97% fuel. Doesn't this mean the 50:1 mix is richer than the 32:1 mix?


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## Analyst Man (Oct 21, 2018)

cuinrearview said:


> Less gas in the mix/air=more lean. Often confused with oil to gas in the pre-mix. A lean fuel to air mix will burn hotter.


Well I must admit this is a new unheard of concept to me. If this is true, why do so many reccomend breaking in a new 50/1 engine with 40/1 mix? And isn't leanness controlled by the air/fuel mixture screw? 14 parts air to 1 part gas + oil is optimum in any 2 cycle engine. But the gas to oil ratios are determined by engine tollerances.


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## Analyst Man (Oct 21, 2018)

mh9162013 said:


> I'm confused as well. A 50:1 fuel/oil mix is made up of about 98.04% fuel. But a 32:1 fuel/oil mix is only made up of about 96.97% fuel. Doesn't this mean the 50:1 mix is richer than the 32:1 mix?


Yes.


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## cuinrearview (Oct 22, 2018)

Analyst Man said:


> A saw that requires 50/1 fuel mix will run hotter and leaner if you use 32/1 mix??? I've never heard that, isn't it the other way around?


It won't necessarily run hotter, but the combustion will be hotter because of the higher air/fuel ratio. There are other things that can alter the A/F but with all other variables(high speed screw) unchanged, just changing your mix ratio will lead to slightly hotter combustion. Is it enough to start melting a piston? Good question, but if the high speed screw is already set to the ragged edge of a lean A/F mix one could question the possibility.


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## holeycow (Oct 22, 2018)

So let me get this straight in my mind:

Echo corporate complies with Epa regulations by shipping saws tuned lean.

These saws generally have restrictive mufflers which we know further compounds any heat issues that would occur in a lean condition.

Many, many of these saws go right out the door in a box in the new owner’s hands. (A large part of Echo’s sales model.)

Some go out of small engine shops “tuned” by mechanics there. If the caps are even popped at that point, they go back in leaving little to no room on the hi screw to tune richer as the saw loosens up.

The unknowing owners run their saw hot as it slowly but surely burns up. Or, since it on the edge of burning up, any miniscule fuel delivery issue kills their machine.

Echo provides a 5 year warranty on their equipment but they take no responsibility for burned up engines due to lean condition. (Remember the box-store saws...they don’t get any “dealer support”).

Dealers (or people who work for dealers or are in some way associated or somehow have a horse in the race) and enthusiasts come on here and places like here to recommend immediate fuel adjustments and muffler mods to make these Echos run right out of the box, as they are known to be lean (and low powered) due to Echo’s current environmental compliance strategy. I hope Echo thanks you for that!

Now then; if a consumer has what they believe is a legitimate warranty claim said consumer replaces the caps on the carb AND buys a new muffler to make sure the service centre knows that the saw hasn’t been tampered with (cause you wouldn’t want any questions raised about that). Surely sending the saw to Echo corporate in modified condition would be folly. Then you may have to wait 3 months to even know if your claim is legit. And this claim you start is probably going to cost you at-the-least a not-really nominal inspection fee, considering it is probably at least 10% of the cost of the saw.

Echo is not the only company that has done this but they are way late to the party on developing the technology to correctly comply with regulations and make their saws run properly “out of the box”.

Echo’s evasive environmental regulation compliance strategy leaves some customers out in the cold.

Does this sound like a company that competes head-to-head with Husqvarna and Stihl (or even Makita/Dolmar) in the pro user market?

Echo corporate hasn’t the right attitude nor the product line nor the product support to play in the big woods.


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## cuinrearview (Oct 22, 2018)

holeycow said:


> So let me get this straight in my mind:
> 
> Echo corporate complies with Epa regulations by shipping saws tuned lean.
> 
> ...


You seem like you have a pretty good handle on it. I'd be willing to bet there are some good dealers out there that would go to bat for the customer. I have read stories about every major manufacturer snubbing their customers in a similar situation though. It's an across the board EPA issue.


I wonder what happens if we use the search function here for "trim the limiters"?


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## holeycow (Oct 22, 2018)

cuinrearview said:


> You seem like you have a pretty good handle on it. I'd be willing to bet there are some good dealers out there that would go to bat for the customer. I have read stories about every major manufacturer snubbing their customers in a similar situation though. It's an across the board EPA issue.
> 
> 
> I wonder what happens if we use the search function here for "trim the limiters"?



I agree on all counts.


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## RandyinTN (Oct 22, 2018)

And then you have people like me. I used my 490 for 3 hours yesterday clearing up blown over trees. Saw runs great, zero issues other than it is difficult to start if it sits for 4 months or more. But once it warms up one easy pull gets it going again.

If there was a step by step tutorial on how to tune might consider it. But then again with my luck I would turn a great running saw into one that spit and sputtered.


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## mh9162013 (Oct 22, 2018)

holeycow said:


> So let me get this straight in my mind:
> 
> Echo corporate complies with Epa regulations by shipping saws tuned lean.
> 
> ...



That sounds like the the gist of what's being discussed here. These facts, if true, would be an extraordinary allegation, maybe even along the lines of what VW did with their diesel engines. I wonder if there's any way to reasonably (from a cost perspective), prove it? Probably not, unfortunately.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 22, 2018)

holeycow said:


> So let me get this straight in my mind:
> 
> Echo corporate complies with Epa regulations by shipping saws tuned lean.
> 
> ...


Depends on how you look at it. Many like me don't want auto tune, I have a husky with it and I'll pass. So as long as echo continues to dodge the autotune it will be one of the many reasons I will look to them.


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## holeycow (Oct 22, 2018)

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> Depends on how you look at it. Many like me don't want auto tune, I have a husky with it and I'll pass. So as long as echo continues to dodge the autotune it will be one of the many reasons I will look to them.



That’s one of the biggest reasons I bought my cs590.

I think I read somewhere that Echo is developing auto tune too..?

Get them while they’re hot. And then pull the caps to cool them down.


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## holeycow (Oct 22, 2018)

mh9162013 said:


> That sounds like the the gist of what's being discussed here. These facts, if true, would be an extraordinary allegation, maybe even along the lines of what VW did with their diesel engines. I wonder if there's any way to reasonably (from a cost perspective), prove it? Probably not, unfortunately.



I think VW had a different plan. They showed disrespect for the regulations.

Echo shows disrespect for customers.

Imo.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 22, 2018)

holeycow said:


> That’s one of the biggest reasons I bought my cs590.
> 
> I think I read somewhere that Echo is developing auto tune too..?
> 
> Get them while they’re hot. And then pull the caps to cool them down.


That's the word. I'm thinking it might show up on the 680 replacement, but who knows.
To clarify, it's not even that I've had real issues with the Husky, I just feel it's a fix for a problem I don't have. And I also feel a good chainsaw should be as basic and simple as it can be. Really, IMO, it should be offered in lower saws and at the very least given only as an option on pro saws.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 22, 2018)

cuinrearview said:


> It won't necessarily run hotter, but the combustion will be hotter because of the higher air/fuel ratio. There are other things that can alter the A/F but with all other variables(high speed screw) unchanged, just changing your mix ratio will lead to slightly hotter combustion. Is it enough to start melting a piston? Good question, but if the high speed screw is already set to the ragged edge of a lean A/F mix one could question the possibility.


It very well could run hotter and should. While the oil in the fuel is needed, it is also an impurity as to how fuel burns and octane rating is concerned . The more oil, the more you lower your octane. Lower the octane the hotter the burn. That's why on most cans of ready use it says they "use" 92 or 93 octane fuel, not "it is" that.


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## lambs (Oct 22, 2018)

I've heard saws go lean when the user didn't think to shake up the 2 cycle gas before pouring it in the saw. I always shake up the mix.

Not to dispute any of the thoughts expressed above, I don't doubt these saws are shipped / delivered lean.


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## Analyst Man (Oct 22, 2018)

I run 40/1 in my 562XP which calls for 50/1, but then again it has autotune. There's lots of information on which oil/fuel mix is best, both pro and con but I noticed there are a lot of professionals running heavier than called for mixes.


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## holeycow (Oct 22, 2018)

Ah oh...


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## Analyst Man (Oct 22, 2018)

See; fuel mixture by woodsdog2015 on 14 Dec, 2015 21:46 on
Here's an excerpt:


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 22, 2018)

You can run any ratio you want as long as the saw is tuned for it. 

25:1 with a 50:1 tune is gonna cause a problem


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## Analyst Man (Oct 23, 2018)

KenJax Tree said:


> You can run any ratio you want as long as the saw is tuned for it.
> 
> 25:1 with a 50:1 tune is gonna cause a problem



Probably. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not concerned that running 40/1 in any of my 50/1 saws is going to cause a problem. I'll probably be chastised for admitting it but I also mix with 91 octane that has 10% ethanol. My first 2 saws only lasted 34 years on that mix during which I knew nothing about tuning. Just lucky I guess.


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## cuinrearview (Oct 23, 2018)

Analyst Man said:


> Probably. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not concerned that running 40/1 in any of my 50/1 saws is going to cause a problem. I'll probably be chastised for admitting it but I also mix with 91 octane that has 10% ethanol. My first 2 saws only lasted 34 years on that mix during which I knew nothing about tuning. Just lucky I guess.


There are many here who use fuel fresh enough that the corn gas isn't an issue. Many claim that their equipment sits for months with it in it without issue. Different strokes...

They've had corn gas in your area for 34 years?


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## holeycow (Oct 23, 2018)

My old saws seem to have more leeway on tuning. They just run. My new saws are finicky beasties. Their tuning has to be addressed with every weather change. And every one has different baseline carb settings. IDKW.

I liked it better when it was 1 turn out both low and high (+ or - an eighth) , no limiters, and run it like you stole it.


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## Analyst Man (Oct 23, 2018)

cuinrearview said:


> There are many here who use fuel fresh enough that the corn gas isn't an issue. Many claim that their equipment sits for months with it in it without issue. Different strokes...
> 
> They've had corn gas in your area for 34 years?



Good point, I don't actually know how long we've had corn gas here, I only know that whatever they were serving I bought. How I long for the old Sunoco dial an octane days. I think 260 was 102 octane, we called it "racing" fuel. LOL!


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 23, 2018)

Alcohol vapes off way easier then gas and is also higher octane. They put impurities in the gas/alcohol fuel to bring the octane back down. If the alcohol vapes off you are left with gas that is much lower then the parent fuel. Plastic gas cans in the sun will **** gas with ethanol really fast.


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## stckciv (Oct 23, 2018)

holeycow said:


> That’s one of the biggest reasons I bought my cs590.
> 
> I think I read somewhere that Echo is developing auto tune too..?
> 
> Get them while they’re hot. And then pull the caps to cool them down.



Yes, here is a little more info. http://www.echotools.com/news/detail/id=9248?category=28


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## Analyst Man (Oct 23, 2018)

Stckciv, looking at your signature I think George was thinking of Garbarlogist, which I believe is a political term.
*Etymology[edit]*
_garbology_ +‎ _-ist_.
*Noun[edit]
garbologist* (_plural_ *garbologists*)

One who examines refuse using archaeological techniques


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## holeycow (Oct 23, 2018)

That saw looks like it’s a little down on rated hp.

Which only says so much, but nearly a hp down on others in the class sounds like a lot.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 23, 2018)

Agreed . I mean HP ain't the only thing driving that chain but a full HP? That's a bit extreme


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 23, 2018)

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> Agreed . I mean HP ain't the only thing driving that chain but a full HP? That's a bit extreme


Me likey Torque/hp but especially like 12500 in da cut ! Make for quick bucking ! Super fast cut-cut !


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## SEAM (Oct 23, 2018)

Echo measures the power output of their saws at the tip of the bar as far as I know, others measure at the crank shaft (PTO). That accounts for the difference (lower rating).


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## holeycow (Oct 27, 2018)

As far as you know...?


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 27, 2018)

SEAM said:


> Echo measures the power output of their saws at the tip of the bar as far as I know, others measure at the crank shaft (PTO). That accounts for the difference (lower rating).


????


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## SEAM (Oct 27, 2018)

There is a difference in power rating when measuring past the drive train rather than engine PTO power...


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 27, 2018)

SEAM said:


> There is a difference in power rating when measuring past the drive train rather than engine PTO power...


Yah ... I’m purty sure they run them on a Dyno ; if you are making a comparison on a vehicle between hp at the crank and hp at the tires it CAN be measured this way ... A chainsaw has no wheels lol !!!


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## holeycow (Oct 27, 2018)

Yup. That’s what I would do if I was trying to showcase my product; measure it’s power in such a way as to make it look inferior to the competition...


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## Bobby Kirbos (Oct 27, 2018)

Frank Rizzo said:


> Yah ... I’m purty sure they run them on a Dyno ; if you are making a comparison on a vehicle between hp at the crank and hp at the tires it CAN be measured this way ... A chainsaw has no wheels lol !!!


True, but just moving the chain (chain weight, chain internal friction, drive sprocket, etc), and the friction between the bar and chain both equate to lost energy. So if you're looking to measure how much energy is actually cutting the wood, measuring at the bar sprocket is as close to "measuring at the wheels" as you're going to get.


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## Frank Rizzo (Oct 27, 2018)

Bobby Kirbos said:


> True, but just moving the chain (chain weight, chain internal friction, drive sprocket, etc), and the friction between the bar and chain both equate to lost energy. So if you're looking to measure how much energy is actually cutting the wood, measuring at the bar sprocket is as close to "measuring at the wheels" as you're going to get.


Yah ... I understand physics ... it seems odd that Everyone except echo measures at the crank ... do you have a pic of this “bar tip “ Dyno ? Wood love to see it lol ! I believe the actual loss is about 1/2 hp and up depending on length of bar and chain ... I dub it “parasitic drag” !!!


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## Bobby Kirbos (Oct 27, 2018)

Frank Rizzo said:


> Yah ... I understand physics ... it seems odd that Everyone except echo measures at the crank ... do you have a pic of this “bar tip “ Dyno ? Wood love to see it lol ! I believe the actual loss is about 1/2 hp and up depending on length of bar and chain ... I dub it “parasitic drag” !!!


Don't have a pic, just adding the perspective to the discussion. It's really only truely relevant if others measure at the crank with nothing attached.


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## James Miller (Oct 28, 2018)

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> Alcohol vapes off way easier then gas and is also higher octane. They put impurities in the gas/alcohol fuel to bring the octane back down. If the alcohol vapes off you are left with gas that is much lower then the parent fuel. Plastic gas cans in the sun will **** gas with ethanol really fast.


If my mix isn't used in a month I feed it to what ever car has more gas in it. I'm just a firewood hack so I only mix a gallon at a time. I'm probly one of the few guys here that likes e85 in the right situation also .


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## cuinrearview (Oct 28, 2018)

SEAM said:


> Echo measures the power output of their saws at the tip of the bar as far as I know, others measure at the crank shaft (PTO). That accounts for the difference (lower rating).


This would be very interesting if true. Can you substantiate this claim?


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## redunshee (Oct 28, 2018)

Dahmer said:


> It’s marked on the body of the saw above the access holes.


LO screw is always nearest the intake manifold or cylinder and Hi is furthest away.


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## redunshee (Oct 28, 2018)

Analyst Man said:


> Well I must admit this is a new unheard of concept to me. If this is true, why do so many reccomend breaking in a new 50/1 engine with 40/1 mix? And isn't leanness controlled by the air/fuel mixture screw? 14 parts air to 1 part gas + oil is optimum in any 2 cycle engine. But the gas to oil ratios are determined by engine tollerances.


Never heard that. I simply run the Hi needle a bit richer.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 28, 2018)

Echo apparently has some sketchy dealers , have heard numerous horror stories within warranty denials for various reasons . I have a yr old timber wolf and it has been a great performer that has run on 91 Octane and Amsoil Sabre @ 50:1 . I advised the dealer of this prior to purchase , since I also use Sabre in my Husky 576xp . He had no issues with other than Echo oil being used in his brand voiding warranty which I had heard from other forums in the past . Same with my Husky Dealer and their Ultra Syn blend oil policy .


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## mountainlake (Oct 29, 2018)

There are way to many shady dealers everywhere. Steve


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## wyk (Oct 29, 2018)

I love my echo's, but you do need to make sure they are tuned right. From the dealer, they can be very lean. I prefer the fact they do not have electronics since I can mod them to work without just fine. We have an ms241 on the estate that is about to go on it's third carburetor in 4 years(my choice would have been to replace the saw this time around). The next time it acts up it gets replaced with an Echo 500 or 501. Same weight anyways. I'll make sure it doesn't run too lean.


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## holeycow (Nov 2, 2018)

cuinrearview said:


> This would be very interesting if true. Can you substantiate this claim?



ya, my ******** meter is pinned too.


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## Colt Marlington (Nov 2, 2018)

I don't think they measure the power differently. But I generally think most of their saws are designed to make their power at a lower rpm with a wide low revving powerband. So maybe similar torque at a lower rpm equals lower hp rating.
This with the exception of the 2511T which has quite a quick and high revving engine.

I didn't expect my 490 to be a screamer out of the box. It is what it is, and I got a smokin deal from my local pawn shop.
I just expected something that was easy starting, reliable, and could run a 20" bar and chain better than most 40cc saws. And I think it does all of that in spades.

But the 501P probably gets closer to a 261CM, and is pushing into the pro category of saws with a higher power to weight ratio and a little more style and substance.


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## Listen_Up_Sonny (Jan 17, 2019)

Hello, I am the original poster. I've been silent for a long time because the saw has been at the dealership for a longtime. I am returning to post the resolution to my issue. About the only things I'm happy with are that the saw is fixed and there is value in any resolution.

I just picked up the rebuilt saw from the echo dealership. The claimed cause of failure was sawdust ingestion from a not sharp saw blade. Echo, after some run around, offered a partial warranty where they covered parts and I covered labor. The total personal cost to me was $230 (2/3's the original purchase price), about a days worth of driving around and annoying phone conversations, 4 months without the saw, and personal frustration. I believe that a fair deal is one where both sides feel like they could've done better, but I do not look at this as a fair deal. I look at it like a government shutdown. I was the side that felt the pain the most and was willing to accept a mediocre deal. I did investigate making a claim through my states implied warranty laws and I believe I could've made a reasonable case. But, like I said, there was value in a resolution.

I want to be crystal clear that the Echo repair dealership was not involved in the original sale, does not get paid unless either echo or the customer pays them, and does not have the decision power on whether or not a warranty is denied. It would be unfair to hold them at all culpable. Additionally, they do not actually sell echo chainsaws, which should tell you something. I think the only reason I was offered anything was because they advocated strongly for me, and they definetly spend more than the 2.25 hours I was billed for.

Here are some thoughts, feelings, and takeaways:
1. ECHO CHAINSAWS ARE FRAGILE LITTLE FLOWERS! 
Personally, I think the idea that a dull chain killed this saw is sheepish. I do not know nor can I prove one way or the other that more attentive chain sharpening would've prevented this issue. I do know that I acted reasonably and how most people would: followed manufacturer guidelines including not removing limiter caps, careful about fresh and properly mixed gas and proper oils, maintenance sharpening regularly and if chip size/performance suffered, replaced chains as needed, didn't continue to run saw when performance issues were noted, etc. Keep in mind that all components were less than a year old, I have receipts for chains/files/truefuel/echo premix oil/echo tune up kit, the air filter was not gross or damaged, and...I mean a chainsaw should not be killed by sawdust except due to gross negligence. 

2.Echo will do anything to avoid a warranty claim, they'll always blame it on you, it'll cost you $45 and 3 months to even attempt to make a warranty claim, and these saws are not worth fixing: 
Echo empirically stated that the cause was bad gas, my fault, and not under warranty when initially contacted. Well, the very fact that they changed their reason when they actually looked at the saw should tell you something. In addition to the firm rebuff, it will also cost you $45 and 3 months just to find out if they'll stand behind their products. Even with echo finally covering the parts, this saw was not worth fixing. If you had to cover parts, it would be more than the new cost. They are simply throw away saws if you have any problem. The only reason I elected to repair it was that I needed the saw, would rather make echo pay for some parts and me pay a local business, and a stihl was not in the budget. 

3. Echo doesn't care about your satisfaction or loyalty.
Satisfaction is the bare minimum you expect from a purchasae. If you pay $1 for a McD's burger, you are satisfied because it served it's purpose. You weren't expecting filet mignon. If you get a little more than you expected for the price, you become loyal. I expected to at least be satisfied. I wasn't expecting the saw to go head to head with a saw 2-4x it's price, but I expected the saw to serve its purpose faithfully. My first chainsaw was a little echo about 20 years ago. It served it's purpose and offered a little more than I expected, so I became loyal. I've bought a handful of other items: trimmers, blowers, a mutli-head unit over the years. These all served their purposes for long periods of time. I purchased this saw and a higher end echo trimmer in the past 2 years. I was comfortable buying these without much concern about the warnings from others because I was loyal. Well, the chainsaw has been a huge disappointment and the trimmer has also underwhelmed. My loyalty is gone.

Rant Over!


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## Squatch (Jan 17, 2019)

That’s crazy you had to pay $230 and waste that much time and energy to try and get some of the advertised 5year warranty!!! 

I’ve been toying with the idea of adding a 490 or 501p to my stable because of the value and warranty offered by echo. After reading your experience I will definitely be going with a husky of Stihl. 

It would be EASY for them to fix or better yet replace the saw at no cost to you, and given all of their equipment you own they should have bent over backwards for you. It probably would have saved them time and money in the long run. 

Good on you getting the word out. It will cost them at least 1 potential customer.


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## fulladirt (Jan 17, 2019)

Thanks for the update.
Sad that you were treated like that man I'd be pissed too.
We have 2 Echo saws (bought from a good dealer)
Has anyone ever had a GOOD experience dealing with Echo warranty?


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## shadco (Jan 17, 2019)

On one hand, if the saw was bought from a good saw shop I bet it would be just fine. Buying at a box store and getting a box, vs having someone going over the saw with you and explaining how to be successful with the saw are 2 entirely different things. There are at 2 good saw shops that sell echo near me, I bought my Stihl’s (saws, line trimmer, blower, and Kombi ) from one of them but they both seemed solid on the Echos too, they made sure they ran right before I left, and reviewed how to tune in the manual.

Don’t buy outdoor power stuff from box stores.

.


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## SEAM (Jan 17, 2019)

I am sorry for your bad Echo experience...
You said in your initial post that you use premix and also self-mixed fuel. Depending on the pre-mix (alcohol-based (Motomix, Aspen, etc.) or gasoline-based) this may cause problems as gasoline and alcohol have different properties and require re-tuning of the carburetor when switching between them.

The 40+ bucks charged for looking at a saw under warranty is ridiculous! 

I have used a number of smaller Echo saws (second hand) regularly for years without problems so far and also run a number of older pro models (30+ years old) from time to time... always thought the brand produces high-quality stuff.


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## Squatch (Jan 17, 2019)

shadco said:


> On one hand, if the saw was bought from a good saw shop I bet it would be just fine. Buying at a box store and getting a box, vs having someone going over the saw with you and explaining how to be successful with the saw are 2 entirely different things. There are at 2 good saw shops that sell echo near me, I bought my Stihl’s (saws, line trimmer, blower, and Kombi ) from one of them but they both seemed solid on the Echos too, they made sure they ran right before I left, and reviewed how to tune in the manual.
> 
> Don’t buy outdoor power stuff from box stores.
> 
> .



Truth!


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## Colt Marlington (Jan 17, 2019)

I think the $40 and them always assuming the customer is always wrong is why most people on this site don't mind immediately voiding their warranty with mods, and figure on taking care of any problems themselves.

$230 is a lot of coin for taking a little ole chainsaw apart and putting it back together.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Jan 17, 2019)

I love my Echo saws but yes the company itself sucks for warranty. This happened to one of my Echo saws at 10 months, Saw was bone stock. Took Echo another 10 months to finally decide it was my fault. Still own Echo saws and string trimmers but I “void” the warranty as soon as it comes home, the warranty is useless.


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## champion221elite (Jan 18, 2019)

Thank you OP for the update. I have an un-molested CS490 that I bought back in August of 2018. I had been holding off doing a muffler mod and carb tune for the sake of preserving the 5 year warranty. I have now realized that Echo's warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on. I was also planning on picking up a CS620P this Spring, but that may not be happening after reading about your misfortune.

I do have a question about Echo suggesting the cause of failure was sawdust ingestion. Was your air filter clean and well seated on the intake? If the filter was clean, and seated I fail to see how saw dust could get into the engine. Furthermore, if damage was caused because of a poorly engineered filter/ intake shouldn't that have been a factory defect and therefore a warranty issue?


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## Cliff R (Jan 18, 2019)

The root problem here is the fact that Echo is hell bent on pleasing the EPA and turns their power equipment loose pretty lean right out of the box. Even so in the hands of the average homeowner or non-commercial use they fair pretty well.

IF a few simple steps are taken BEFORE you place the saw (or other power equipment) in service it will not have a P/C issue.

I know this because I work on power equipment here, and see "smoked" P/C from all brands, and most of the time it's simply from the operator running them in a poorly tuned condition where they aren't getting the fuel they need to keep EGT's down and adequate lubrication to the internal components.

There are always a few that come in where the owner should have hired the work done and kept his day job. This includes picking up the WRONG fuel can without any oil mixed in it, or fuel so old it I can pour it in the driveway outside the shop and have trouble lighting it with a torch! Yes, just had this happen last week when I guy brought in a Honda 2500 watt generator that would not run. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with it aside the fact that the fuel wouldn't burn, but he thought, like most other homeowners than the Stabil he put in the fuel back in 2005 would preserve the fuel no matter how long it sat till the next power outage........lovely!

Anyhow, these Forums exist to educate folks, so here goes. When you buy an Echo saw (or other brand that has a carb with mixture screws/limiter caps) remove them and modify them so you can custom tune the saw if/as needed. This is where the Echo haters chime in and scream you'll void the Warranty, well, IF you follow these directions you aren't going to need the Warranty and done correctly no one will be able to notice that you modified them anyhow. (pics below)

The manufacturer's do try to set them up so they don't have issues, but there are WAY too many things beyond their control, including fuel type, octane, amount of ethanol, quality (yes some fuel isn't as good as others), how old it is, quality and amount of oil mix being added, altitude, DA (Density Altitude)/air quality, failure to clean the air intake system/air filter, etc, etc, etc, etc.

So IF you want your little Echo to always be at it's best, learn how to remove the limiter caps, modify them, put them back in place, and make correct carb settings based on the fuel you are using and parameters the saw will be used in.

IF you want to be with the masses and simply buy a saw that gets casual use, fuel that's sat in a gas can for months or even years, and don't really care to have your saw always be at it's best and last a lifetime, then stay off the Forums and sit in your recliner and have the wife fetch you beers instead.

To this day it AMAZES me how well some of this equipment lasts with the abuse and neglect that it gets from the owner/operator. To make that deal even worse those folks come on here whining like little baby's AFTER they have smoked the P/C......and NEVER put Stabil in saw gas, just use it up within a couple of months, then throw it out before dumping it into any of your power equipment, ESPECIALLY if it wasn't in a sealed container as ethanol soaks up water 1 to 1 and forms "apple jelly" in the fuel can, saws fuel tank, and ends up plugging up the tiny passages in the carb (Mountain Lake refers to this above) leaning out the A/F ratio even further. As a side note here I absolutely LOVE ethanol, it keeps us BURIED in work in the shop with no end in sight.

In closing and FWIW, I can purchase an Echo CS-590 for a little over $300, have it shipped here, quickly remove the limiter caps/custom tune, give it to a company who removes trees for a living, and their ground crew will run the dog-living-piss out of it every single day, and run into them many months or even years later and they tell me the saw still runs flawlessly and has needed nothing but a few dozens chains replaced and a bar or two. IF I were to simply gas the same saw up, fire it up for a quick test run, hand it over to the same company.......it would be back in here in less than a month with a "smoked" PC, guaranteed!........FWIW........Cliff


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## champion221elite (Jan 18, 2019)

tprepd1 said:


> Thanks for the update.
> Sad that you were treated like that man I'd be pissed too.
> We have 2 Echo saws (bought from a good dealer)
> Has anyone ever had a GOOD experience dealing with Echo warranty?



I did have a positive experience with an Echo warranty a few years back. I have an Echo PB-250 handheld blower that had intermittent lack of spark. It was about 3 years old so I contacted Echo and made a warranty claim. They instructed me to take it to my local Echo service center (almost an hour from my home). I left it with the service guy who diagnosed the blower as having a failed ignition coil after having it for a few weeks. Total turn-around time was about 6 weeks. Echo covered the parts and labor 100%. Sadly, the small engine shop went out of business and I have lost that local resource.


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## Listen_Up_Sonny (Jan 18, 2019)

Squatch said:


> It would be EASY for them to fix or better yet replace the saw at no cost to you, and given all of their equipment you own they should have bent over backwards for you. It probably would have saved them time and money in the long run..



The real disrespect is that the $200 I paid in labor is more than their unit cost on a new one. There are ways they could've kept me happy without it costing them anything such as the original purchase price credited towards a new, more expensive saw, etc.




shadco said:


> Don’t buy outdoor power stuff from box stores.


This is very good advice and it is and isn't relevant to my situation. I purchased it in a bit of a pinch due to a windstorm and needing to do lots of cleanup. It was the fastest way I could get my long driveway open, and there was only one other saw available in the area because everyone made a run on saws that day. And, regardless of where I bought it from, I expected better (probably naively so).



Colt Marlington said:


> $230 is a lot of coin for taking a little ole chainsaw apart and putting it back together.


It is. It came in small bursts. $30 for my local guy, $40 for the diagnostic, and $160 for the labor. If I had known the trajectory of this path, I wouldn't have gone down it. But, sometimes, you don't realize you're in the woods until you're deep in.



champion221elite said:


> I do have a question about Echo suggesting the cause of failure was sawdust ingestion. Was your air filter clean and well seated on the intake? If the filter was clean, and seated I fail to see how saw dust could get into the engine. Furthermore, if damage was caused because of a poorly engineered filter/ intake shouldn't that have been a factory defect and therefore a warranty issue?


The original filter was used, but not gross. It was properly installed and visually undamaged. Yes, I agree that it should've been a full warranty issue...LOL



Cliff R said:


> The root problem...
> In closing and FWIW, I can purchase an Echo CS-590 for a little over $300, have it shipped here, quickly remove the limiter caps/custom tune, give it to a company who removes trees for a living, and their ground crew will run the dog-living-piss out of it every single day, and run into them many months or even years later and they tell me the saw still runs flawlessly and has needed nothing but a few dozens chains replaced and a bar or two. IF I were to simply gas the same saw up, fire it up for a quick test run, hand it over to the same company.......it would be back in here in less than a month with a "smoked" PC, guaranteed!........FWIW........Cliff


Yes, I agree with what you're saying. But, bad/lean gas was not the mode of failure. They are claiming sawdust ingestion. Can I assume that since it was rebuilt by a dealer, they tuned it properly at this point? I know that it needs ongoing tuning.


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## Cliff R (Jan 18, 2019)

Brand new CS-490 today at Rural King for $227, they are having a 35 percent off sale......

"Sawdust ingestion", never heard of that deal before and I've been working on power equipment since the mid 1970's and full time in my business since 2003. I guess it's possible if someone ran it with a huge hole in the air filter element or without one at all!

The "smoked P/C" was most likely a tad lean right out of the box, which is a slow death and NEVER gets any better the longer you own and use the saw because it will eventually get "varnished" up enough in the tiny fuel passages inside the carburetor to go even leaner. 

The ONLY way I know of to prevent this is to use the saw often, change out the fuel often (no more than about 2 months per batch), and if/when you are finished with it for the "season", get it fired up, dump the tank,, and run it till it stalls out and if able pull the choke lever as the engine dies out.

It will take a few extra pulls at the next outing, but rest assured the fuel woln't have eaten up the fuel line, and clogged up the carb, etc......Cliff


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## Jer75 (Jan 18, 2019)

Reading this thread with interest, as I recently added a CS-490 to my stable.

I happened to be into the local John Deere dealer today, and they're Echo servicing dealer as well. During our visit we were talking about the Echo warranty, and I'd told him I've never had to use it (I also have a CS-330t, CS-400, and CS-590) but that my understanding is that it's a gimmick, and folks have a hard time getting Echo to stand behind stuff when issues crop up. 

He agreed, and told me that they'll often try to put the blame on the customer and frame it around gas issues. He said they tried that with a customer he'd sold a string trimmer to, and he said he argued with them and he had receipts showing the customer had bought the high dollar Echo canned fuel and that's all he ever used. He said he spent probably over 2 hours on the phone with them over some period of time, and they first wanted to pay for part of it but not the labor etc. He eventually convinced them and they replaced the trimmer... it was a $130 trimmer! Took 6-weeks.

Also told me of how they can't even get some of the saws the big box stores can, and that a guy bought a chainsaw from a farm store in the next town over, had issues with it THAT DAY... (probably tune related) and the guy took it back to the farm store the same day he bought it and they told him to take it to the JD dealer the next town over (him...), that they're a servicing dealer. So the customer comes in mad and with a bad attitude, all because that his saw isn't set up right, and this guy had nothing to do with it... 

He told me people will say "...well, you're made whole anyway, yada, yada" but he said his shop rates are $80 an hour, Echo pays him $25.

Anyway, thought I weigh in. Gotta feel for the service centers - a whole new world!


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## stubnail67 (Jan 19, 2019)

I keep saying some of the echos pull fines into the air filters....I clean my saws after every use...you should not have to... I do its why i find certain models have filter issues the 490 is one so is the cs 310 and the 352 also the 2511t....the cs 400 and 370s are real good the cs 355t is good the cs 330t was good and the cs 271t filters well for such a simple filter... the 590 is not bad with a few o-rings its fixed....Knowing this i blow everything off and check the filters every time it sux but its all part of it...on the saws i mentioned that are no issue even in palms you can go a few uses ... I have only seen fines in the cs 400 series once my boss who tapped his filter ones per year... LOL.... I wish they would use the type that the 370 and 400 use in my opinion they work much better.... grease /o-rings people have different fixes....Bottom line after a hard day clean it and check the intake if i see fines i close the choke and clean it... then blow the inside of the air filter area out with a compressor takes minutes... i plug the intake with a thumb when i do this.... good luck hope it helps ya all....oh and i sharpen my chain after every use... just how i roll....


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## stubnail67 (Jan 19, 2019)

Oh and i also pull the tabs and adjust it in wood right after i buy it....so yea i void that warranty soon as it comes out of the box or real close....LOL....


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## drf255 (Jan 19, 2019)

I ported a 490 and they are good little saws.

It’s clear that Echo’s customer service sucks. Your plight has been experienced by many over the years.

One issue is that their saws are tuned to the lean edge because of epa requirements. One should pull/trim/replace the limiters as the first step after purchase. It voids the warranty, but you can see how that one goes. The 490 has a limited coil and needs to be tuned in wood. It’s not easy to tune by ear. I’d recommend doing it now before you burn this one up too. 

My advice, if you ever need another saw, is to buy used off of a reputable member here. But a used Stihl 026 or 036 and don’t look back. Rugged old designs that are simple to repair and have an ambundance of used PEM and new AM parts that can be had for a fair price. Then just go cut.


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## drf255 (Jan 19, 2019)

Here’s my old sale thread if anyone wants to see inside the 490. 

The build thread is over at the forbidden forum. 

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ported-echo-490.296860/


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 19, 2019)

Like already said, Echo sets their saws up way way way too lean. It is meant to meet EPA regs. My first 490 wouldn’t even start because it was too lean. Took it back got a replacement and took it straight to a pro tuner. The limiters are gone now, the muffler has an extra port and it was tuned ‘properly.’ I also have a tach mounted to the 490 now so I can keep an eye on the WOT speed. Just me but I also run a quality oil and mix it 45:1.

The Echo dealer I bought my saw at didn’t even start the first one, saying it was ‘good to go’ and tuned at the Echo factory. That is a recipe for disaster.

I will never buy a new saw again, without ensuring the tuning is correct. Too lean will do exactly what you found with your saw (so I have been told by two chainsaw gurus now).

Love my 490 but the corporate Echo entity, not so much.


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## pioneerguy600 (Jan 19, 2019)

drf255 said:


> I ported a 490 and they are good little saws.
> 
> It’s clear that Echo’s customer service sucks. Your plight has been experienced by many over the years.
> 
> ...



Good advice here, the Echo saws have not been my forte but a couple of our local dealers here had a very difficult time with Echo Corp on warranty work. The local dealers wanted to please their customers and did fix saws for customers to keep them happy, Echo Corp refused to pay them so a dealer can only eat so much without backup from the manufacturer. The saw itself is well made and rugged in most models but its the tuning issue they were forced to follow to meet EPA restrictions, tuned on the edge of lean to meet the regs. A good dealer would pull the limiters and re tune the saw, immediately that voided warranty, Echo Corp would not allow this no matter who did it. However most all re tuned saws did not come back needing warranty work.The dealer could not determine if a problem was warrantied, shipping takes time, turn around times were too long so most owners got fed up and bought another saw, most did not buy another Echo. More often than not though burned up saws are not the machines fault outright, the owner needs to know what the engine needs, if its screaming then there is a problem, hard starts, rough idle, poor acceleration, surging and very high revving are all signs there is something wrong that needs immediate resolution, far too many operators will just try to keep them running til the engine dies.


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## Cliff R (Jan 20, 2019)

Just realized that I didn't put up the photos on modifying the factory limiters so you can make the needed carburetors adjustments when your new Echo is first placed in service. 

You will find that some Echo models will BARELY run right out of the box and hesitate and die out until fully warmed up, and even then they will be a tad anemic until you give them adequate fuel.

Some models also respond well to a muffler mod, these include the CS-370/400's and any other model that has a CAT in it.

The CS-590/600/620's have a pretty decent muffler just a little restrictive at the deflector so we do a slight mod to those as well but leave the muffler alone.

The CS-510's are restriction internally and it's a BIG wake up call for those saws to make a mod there. Anyhow, removing the limiter caps and grinding off the stops is simple and doesn't take much more time to perform than it took me to type this:







The last pic here shows the finished product, hardly noticeable that you even modified them. That's not really a concern anyhow because rest assured that if you start your new Echo saw out correctly tuned it is not going to smoke the P/C unless you are stupid enough to straight gas it!

Final note here on tuning. Some models use a rev-limiter and other models use a timing retard module. A few are unlimited but it really doesn't matter, tuning is done in the same manner, you just have to be smart enough so any high RPM limiting features don't fool you into thinking your "H" setting isn't set correctly.

Get the saw running, fully warmed up and set the idle or "L" screw first. I turn them in until you reach maximum RPM, then back just a tad until you just here it start to slow the engine. This provides adequate fuel for transition and best throttle response. Turn the "H" screw out till the saw is noticeably rich and down on power and "four stroking" heavily. Start making cuts, leaning it up with each cut. Before the cut free rev the saw to insure it's still "four stroking" and during the cut remove the load for an instant to make sure it four strokes there as well. Continue to lean it up until it makes the best power in the cut and pulls hard clear across the load/speed range. 

The rev limiters or timing retard modules come into play with some models and will fool the tuner into thinking they have made an adequate "H" speed adjustment. So sneak up on the tune and ALWAYS er just a tad rich vs a tad lean. I've been doing this sort of thing over 40 years now and full time since 2003 and have never, ever smoked a P/C in any saw I own or any Echo's we've sat up for our customers. 

I'll add here then sit down that Echo has played the field some in the past 15 years or so. They've hit the market with some new models including some piston ported top handles, some "lower end" clamshell stuff, and some EXCELLENT pro type saws. To stay in the game you have to offer "homeowner" and lower end stuff, otherwise EVERYONE will run down and buy a Stihl MS-170 or even worse a Poulan at Walmart. Some of the Echo clamshell stuff is excellent, and essentially bulletproof if tuned correctly, the CS-370/400's come to mind here.

The CS-590/600/620's are about as good as it gets for 60cc offerings in those price points. The CS-590 is and continues to be the best bang for the buck out there in a 60cc saw sporting professional features.

The CS-670/680's and 800's aren't so great and Echo needs to re-think that line-up and produce larger versions of the CS-620PW......IMHO. Nothing all wrong with the 670's/800's, but they are not on par with similar Stihl and Husqvarna models in that CC/price range and you will NEVER find yourself reaching for either one if you own a nice 268/272/372XP.....FWIW.........Cliff


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## James Miller (Jan 20, 2019)

490 is still my go to firewood saw.

Just keeps cutting guess I'm one of the lucky ones.


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## fulladirt (Jan 20, 2019)

Cliff R said:


> Just realized that I didn't put up the photos on modifying the factory limiters so you can make the needed carburetors adjustments when your new Echo is first placed in service.
> 
> You will find that some Echo models will BARELY run right out of the box and hesitate and die out until fully warmed up, and even then they will be a tad anemic until you give them adequate fuel.
> 
> ...



GREAT post Cliff, Thank-you!


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## crazyduster (Jan 20, 2019)

Wow too bad about the 490. I really like mine. I have an echo blower that acted up after 1 1/2 years started to run bad. I did buy it at the daler. I took it to the dealer that I bought it from for service under warranty. The flywheel key had sheered off causing a timing issue. The dealer gave me a loaner while they had it and gave me a brand new blower for no charge per echo saying the cost of repair exceeds a new one. I don't buy stuff like this from the big box stores just the dealers. Same price and if you have an issue I think they will go out of there way for you if you have an issue. My local dealer sells stihl echo and husqvarna. They register everything for me when I purchase it. They tuned my 490 and my husqvarna under warranty both were really lean .


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## Deleted member 149229 (Jan 20, 2019)

James Miller said:


> 490 is still my go to firewood saw.View attachment 698094
> View attachment 698095
> Just keeps cutting guess I'm one of the lucky ones.


After I converted my 490 to 3/8 lp like you did that saw really impressed me. With the 325 it just was so-so.


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## Marley5 (Jan 20, 2019)

Cliff R said:


> Just realized that I didn't put up the photos on modifying the factory limiters so you can make the needed carburetors adjustments when your new Echo is first placed in service.
> 
> You will find that some Echo models will BARELY run right out of the box and hesitate and die out until fully warmed up, and even then they will be a tad anemic until you give them adequate fuel.
> 
> ...



This is a great informative write-up.
Precisely how I was taught to tune a saw many years ago.


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 20, 2019)

Cliff R, thanks for your post. This will be a valuable thread with the information you added, now available for the new Echo purchaser who doesn’t realize how lean their saw could be. 

Don’t mean to impose, but any chance you could also show what you do on a muffler similar to the CS-490? The guy that tuned my new saw added an extra port to the muffler, but I would love to see what you do to ensure he covered off what you have found to be most effective. Thanks!


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## stubnail67 (Jan 20, 2019)

I still love all my echos i just mod the air filter on certain ones with with a bead of grease or a home made foam gasket on certain models the 2511t was the worst one but i was shaving palms ...my rear handle saws are many times on their side close to the ground and suck crap in ... if i was bucking fire wood i doubt i would see much stuff get sucked in ...dont need alot of fire wood in florida well except for marshmallows....my 490 cuts good with a narrow kerf .325 16 inch...but i still need to get one of those 3/8s lo pro rims and see the difference....here its oaks pepper trees or palm trees LOL...nice pics James...


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## stubnail67 (Jan 20, 2019)

Elaine Landscapes said:


> Cliff R, thanks for your post. This will be a valuable thread with the information you added, now available for the new Echo purchaser who doesn’t realize how lean their saw could be.
> 
> Don’t mean to impose, but any chance you could also show what you do on a muffler similar to the CS-490? The guy that tuned my new saw added an extra port to the muffler, but I would love to see what you do to ensure he covered off what you have found to be most effective. Thanks!


 take off the deflector pull tube cut defector and mount it back i kept the screen on mine but here is an after pic....i had to pull the muffler the screws are a pita....on this one....the 590 is a gravy mod also...


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## Marley5 (Jan 20, 2019)

The screws are definitely a PITA.....warming the saw may help.

Here's the restrictor tube that needs to be removed.


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## James Miller (Jan 20, 2019)

That pretty much covers it.


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## jrs_diesel (Jan 20, 2019)

Excellent post Cliff!

Echo may not have the highest performing equipment, but thier build quality and design is excellent IMO. Thier approach seems geared more towards service life and longevity, current factory carb tuning not withstanding.


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## Colt Marlington (Jan 20, 2019)

Here's what I did to mine for temporary, with no screen.


I figure the restricter tube alone, without screen, is less restrictictive than the stock deflector.
Stripped the head on one of the screws taking it apart.

Has a much nicer tone than stock.
But plan on making a bigger one that angles more toward the front and reinstalling the screen.


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## Colt Marlington (Jan 20, 2019)

I bought an 18" .325 narrow kerf chain for mine.
Can anyone tell me if I need a special bar for this chain? Both the chain and the bar that I have are .050 gauge.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Jan 20, 2019)

Colt Marlington said:


> I bought an 18" .325 narrow kerf chain for mine.
> Can anyone tell me if I need a special bar for this chain? Both the chain and the bar that I have are .050 gauge.


A narrow kerf chain is supposed to be run with a narrow kerf bar. The the bar is correspondingly narrow to match the chain.
http://en.oregonproducts.com/pro/lookups/selguide.aspx?BusId=OCS&SellReg=USA&LangId=ENG


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## smokey7 (Jan 20, 2019)

Funny all of the dealers and customers that think the factory settings are good to go. My brother bought a 490 bout 6 months ago. The dealer told him it was factory tuned. My bro told me it doesn't stall and hasn't seized yet so it must be ok. I went to run it on Saturday...... It was very cold blooded and very lean up top rpm. Pulled limiter small muff mod timing advance and properly tuned it now runs like a 50cc saw should. My bro days I must have ported it or stuck a bigger engine it it. Now that he has seen what a tune and muff mod can do he brought me all his saws. Ms170 echo cs400 husky 435 poulan 3314 and 5020. Now he is looking at a jonny 2152. Like he needs another 50cc saw.


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## Colt Marlington (Jan 20, 2019)

Dahmer said:


> A narrow kerf chain is supposed to be run with a narrow kerf bar. The the bar is correspondingly narrow to match the chain.
> http://en.oregonproducts.com/pro/lookups/selguide.aspx?BusId=OCS&SellReg=USA&LangId=ENG


That makes perfect sense to me.

But what doesn't make sense is that Oregon lists the Speedcut 95TXL072G chain for the Echo CS-490, but no corresponding narrow kerf bar for the 490.
https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/search/modeltype-cbs?q=echo__CS-490:relevance&page=0


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## Deleted member 149229 (Jan 20, 2019)

Colt Marlington said:


> That makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> But what doesn't make sense is that Oregon lists the Speedcut 95TXL072G chain for the Echo CS-490, but no corresponding narrow kerf bar for the 490.
> https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/search/modeltype-cbs?q=echo__CS-490:relevance&page=0


Bar has been obsoleted, contact Oregon, go figure.


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## Colt Marlington (Jan 20, 2019)

Dahmer said:


> Bar has been obsoleted, contact Oregon, go figure.


Thanks. At least I can find one of those two bars now.
Going to call Oregon and see what they say about it tomorrow.


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## Cliff R (Jan 20, 2019)

Here's my take on muffler mods.

Some mufflers, especially from earlier saws produced when EPA standards for power equipment weren't nearly as "tight" as they have been recently, may not need any help at all, and opening them up just increases the noise level instead of increasing power. Folks tend to confuse or associate increasing noise level with power increases, it's that way with many things related to mufflers and exhaust systems. By design a muffler may actually help scavenge the cylinder and reduce tendencies for "reversion", so just whacking a big hole or bunch of holes in one making the saw obnoxiously loud and no back pressure at all may do nothing or could be detrimental to engine performance. 

Modifying mufflers can vary from a minutes work to very intrusive/labor intensive.

Far as Echo saws go, the CS-330/360T's are a good example of a very labor intensive muffler to modify, involving cutting them apart, removing the CAT, opening up some internal holes, then MIG welding it back together.

The CS-590/600/620's just a few minutes to open up the deflector slightly. 

The CS-490 is described above and doesn't really need a lot of help.

CS-510's have an internal "pipe" to remove and open up exit hole slightly and the deflector.

CS-370/400's have a CAT to dig/saw out and open up the exit holes and deflector slightly.

I'm not a big fan of drilling extra holes and like to make internal mods to mufflers if/when needed, but still stock exit location and at most opening up the exit hole some. 

It is best to sneak up on those things, making very slight modifications then do some testing, looking at increases in timed cut performance, etc. Try not to associate louder with more power, without some sort of controlled testing it may be difficult to really know if we're helping the saw out or not.........Cliff


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## Kostas (Jan 20, 2019)

Colt Marlington said:


> That makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> But what doesn't make sense is that Oregon lists the Speedcut 95TXL072G chain for the Echo CS-490, but no corresponding narrow kerf bar for the 490.
> https://www.oregonproducts.com/en/search/modeltype-cbs?q=echo__CS-490:relevance&page=0



Oregon speedcut or Oregon microlite is the suitable bars for their speedcut narrow kerf chain.Look at K095 bar mount bars.


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## holeycow (Jan 20, 2019)

[QUOTE="smokey7, Now he is looking at a jonny 2152. Like he needs another 50cc saw.[/QUOTE]

You can never have too many 50cc saws. Ha! 

Besides, he needs a 2152. Who doesn’t?


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## Cliff R (Jan 22, 2019)

Picked up a NIB CS-490 yesterday for $227.50 at Rural King. All their Echo stuff is 35 percent off as they are clearing it out and bringing in more Husqvarna instead. Thought I'd put some pics up of removing/modifying the limiters on the carb for reference. This entire process takes less than ten minutes and that's if you take a coffee break.

The carb doesn't have to be completely removed, just remove the 4 screws on the plastic air filter mount, two short holding it down and the two long ones attaching the carb to the intake. Lift and turn the carb to remove the choke link, do your work and put it right back in place. I recorded the original adjustments and put them back at those positions but it was WAY too lean on first start up and needed more fuel from both to be happy.

Didn't have much time to test it out last night, ran out of daylight, but I'll do some more testing with it today. I removed the muffler, and modified the deflector on the exit side slightly. Left the internal pipe in place for now till it's well broken in then might play around with that some.......Cliff


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 22, 2019)

Wow you stole that saw! Congrats


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## Cliff R (Jan 22, 2019)

I probably woln't have it long, just going to get it dialed in, broken in a bit, then up for sale.......Cliff


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## Kostas (Jan 24, 2019)

I just got the 490 on my hands,boy this thing is light,like really light.Build quality seems excellent except the choke knob(this thing seems like a joke,they could done it better) and the chain brake lever(it seems a little rough),other than that i am very impressed with the quality.I can't believe the muffler outlet,it couldn't breath even if it was 5cc.I pull the rope and i can't hear the engine pushing air out,way restrictive.My saw says June 2018,it has a little different decals,the muffler outlet is already cut where someone would mod it and the limiters are lined up for extraction.I won't start it until i mod the muffler(remove tube etc) and trim the limiter caps.Can't believe i paid 230$ for that thing.


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## Cliff R (Jan 24, 2019)

Here is my muffler mod for the CS-490's. It seems to really pick them up nicely but I didn't do any timed cuts before/after to verify how much......Cliff


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 24, 2019)

Here’s something I don’t think has been discussed yet for the 490 mods... Intake. There is just the one small intake air hole on the carb cowling. Is that sufficient once we have modded the muffler and lost the carb limiters/retuned?

Couldn’t hurt to have another hole on the other side, could it? Or what have you done ...


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## James Miller (Jan 25, 2019)

Elaine Landscapes said:


> Here’s something I don’t think has been discussed yet for the 490 mods... Intake. There is just the one small intake air hole on the carb cowling. Is that sufficient once we have modded the muffler and lost the carb limiters/retuned?
> 
> Couldn’t hurt to have another hole on the other side, could it? Or what have you done ...


They were discussing this in the echo thread on O P E. I'll have to see what they came up with.


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## Cliff R (Jan 25, 2019)

There is a provision for cold weather operation that opens up to the front to bring in more air to the intake area. I recommend using that feature in the Winter months and have always had it open on my Echo CS-510 and it runs fine all year round even in the hottest summer days.......Cliff


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 25, 2019)

Cliff R said:


> There is a provision for cold weather operation that opens up to the front to bring in more air to the intake area. I recommend using that feature in the Winter months and have always had it open on my Echo CS-510 and it runs fine all year round even in the hottest summer days.......Cliff



Ah, good idea. Due to fire hazards, we don’t use the saws much here during the hot summer anyways.


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## stubnail67 (Jan 25, 2019)

thats a good price


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## Marley5 (Jan 25, 2019)

stubnail67 said:


> thats a good price



Ha ha but not as good as those Pro's you got. Lol


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## Kostas (Jan 26, 2019)

I modded the muffler(very easy) and trimmed the limiters.I was able to remove the caps without removing the carb.I used a very thin steel wire and i made a tiny hook on one edge with the pliers.I inserted the tiny hook in the hole of the cap,twisted the wire a little(CCW to keep the ears alligned with the housing of the carb)and pulled the cap out,very easy.Bad thing was that one limiter cap fell inside the saw and i had to remove the recoil cover and the top cover to find it.Trimmed the ears and push them back in.I still haven't start the saw,i hope it is not DOA.It is dark outside now,first thing tomorrow morning will be to start the saw for the very first time.


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## Colt Marlington (Jan 26, 2019)

I just left the limiters off of mine. The needles are spring loaded, so I don't think they'll move.
Although the caps may be easier to get the screwdriver in place.


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 26, 2019)

My limiters were not replaced either and the settings have not changed.


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## Marley5 (Jan 26, 2019)

Removed limiters a year ago and saw has been run hard, still tuned.


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## vonb (Jan 26, 2019)

The early echo (Kiortz) trimmers never had limiter caps. They also never moved.


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 31, 2019)

I sure prefer the round pleated air filter on my Stihl 461 over the Echo 490 air filter. How often are you finding it necessary to change the filter on the 490? There wouldn’t happen to be any other styles of filters that people have successfully modded onto the Echo 490 is there? Thanks.


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## holeycow (Jan 31, 2019)

I see no need in my conditions for pleated automotive style or flocked filters on a chainsaw. 

I’ll take a suitable mesh anyday. No pleats, folds or crevices. As easy to clean as possible. Mesh filters last almost forever too. 

Imo this chainsaw air cleaner thing is way out of hand for normal, typical low dust conditions. Manufacturers are providing fancy filters but not even creating a design with adequate sealing to the intake horn. Stoopid.

These are not dirt bikes (which operate is a completely different environment).


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 31, 2019)

holeycow said:


> I see no need in my conditions for pleated automotive style or flocked filters on a chainsaw.
> 
> I’ll take a suitable mesh anyday. No pleats, folds or crevices. As easy to clean as possible. Mesh filters last almost forever too.
> 
> ...



Copy, thanks.
What I like about my Stihl pleated filter is that I can just knock out the chips etc., but the 490 filter has fine sawdust that has embedded itself into the filter material, making me wonder how much it is obstructing air flow  Not an issue then? 

I have found that a really light/thin coat of grease on the 490 filter to carb seat help keep out any fine dust. 

Not arguing, just asking


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## holeycow (Jan 31, 2019)

It’s that flocked paper/cloth filter medium. Stuff gets stuck in it and it’s hard to get out.

And flocked filters are no good in frosty conditions.

A nice fine mesh is ideal for me.

It’s a plot to sell air filters I tell ya!


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 31, 2019)

holeycow said:


> It’s that flocked paper/cloth filter medium. Stuff gets stuck in it and it’s hard to get out.
> 
> And flocked filters are no good in frosty conditions.
> 
> ...



haha... copy. how often do you replace them? every year?.. or how many hours on average?


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## holeycow (Jan 31, 2019)

I haven’t enough hours on any of my flocked filter saws to ever have replaced any of those. My 30 year old saws with mesh filters and mega hours are still on original filters. With care, they will last forever. My 420 is starting to get considerable hours (4-500??). It has a mesh filter that will last forever too. The several new 4300’s (makita’s 421) I’ve seen have flocked filters without the nice bale wire to hold them in place. Boo!

I imagine the flocked ones will eventually need replacing.


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 31, 2019)

holeycow said:


> I haven’t enough hours on any of my flocked filter saws to ever have replaced any of those. My 30 year old saws with mesh filters and mega hours are still on original filters. With care, they will last forever. My 420 is starting to get considerable hours (4-500??). It has a mesh filter that will last forever too.
> 
> I imagine the flocked ones will eventually need replacing.



Thanks holycow. Good to know. Okay, so it shows I am just being anal about my stuff. I will just keep brushing it off and continue on.  I sure do like this saw. Although that 501P sure has an allure...


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## holeycow (Jan 31, 2019)

When an air filter gets truly plugged engine performance will drop off dramatically.

A small amount of debris on an air filter generally increases filtering performance at the expense of airflow. Airflow is only a problem if it is inadequate.


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## Elaine Landscapes (Jan 31, 2019)

holeycow said:


> When an air filter gets truly plugged engine performance will drop off dramatically.
> 
> A small amount of debris on an air filter generally increases filtering performance at the expense of airflow. Airflow is only a problem if it is inadequate.



Good point thanks. A bit of a side note here, bear with me... 
The odd person (actually pretty normal..hehe) has told me over the years how their vehicle wouldn’t run or start and when they figured it out, their air filter was totally clogged. Well, because I try to maintain my stuff, I kinda rolled my eyes on hearing that... thinking they must be total dufusses. However, last summer, my UTV (side by side) was running awful and I thought oh, oh, maybe I need to check and set the valves. I started by installing a new properly gapped plug, gas filter etc. Then I looked at the air filter that I had been tapping out, and vacuuming. Could barely see any light through it so put in a new one. Yup, that’s all it was. I now replace that air filter on a regular basis.


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## Kostas (Feb 1, 2019)

The original flocked type filter that comes with the 490 is not my favorite.It cleans very good but has a very short life.The nylon mesh type of the cs501p is way better.I got my 490 a couple days ago,did all the recomented mods and was searching to get a couple spare filters.No chanche plus that they are very expensive.I finaly managed to ordered the red nylon mesh for the 501sx from my local dealer.Once i get them,i'll write back.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Feb 1, 2019)

Elaine Landscapes said:


> Copy, thanks.
> What I like about my Stihl pleated filter is that I can just knock out the chips etc., but the 490 filter has fine sawdust that has embedded itself into the filter material, making me wonder how much it is obstructing air flow  Not an issue then?
> 
> I have found that a really light/thin coat of grease on the 490 filter to carb seat help keep out any fine dust.
> ...


I take the filter apart, spray it with brake cleaner and then carefully blow the filter clean from the inside out. Reason I said carefully is one day the compressor was at full pressure and without thinking I hit the nozzle trigger very close to the filter and blew a hole thru it. My 400 saws have the auto type filter but the fit isn’t great, I put a fine bead of grease on top and bottoms when tightening them down.


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## chief9-10 (Feb 2, 2019)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Long time lurker who just joined. I'm not a professional, but do a fair amount of sawing mainly for firewood and storm cleanup around my property. Thanks for the add. I just got off the phone with my local small engine guy, and he gave me the bad news that my Echo Cs-490 has scored engine cylinders and is not worth fixing. Up until a month ago, I was singing this saws praises and planning on buying the 680 during the next dealer days.
> 
> ...


I've been run my saws for 20 plus and I'm sick and tired of all these Stihl groupies b.s. I've seen just as many Stihls and Husks blow apart Echo is just as good as the others


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 11, 2019)

Hello Again,
I am the original poster, and the update about my first warranty experience is on page 8 of this thread. I've been silent for a while on here, but here is my final update. Long story short, after receiving the repaired saw back in the winter and storing it until the summer, it failed in the exact same fashion(fine particulate ingestion) with less than a week on the rebuild. Since the rebuild was done at an authorized dealer, I can only assume the repair was done properly and the carb was tuned appropriately. This has been a huge frustration, expensive, put me out of a saw for the better part of year, and just generally a terrible experience with echo. I understand that any company can put out a bad unit, but the extent of the charades they put on to avoid an actual warranty and good customer service is what I really have to criticize Echo about. Well, I let my stubborn side come out, consulted with the state consumer board who said I likely could win a case, and barked up enough trees until I got to a regional echo person. Finally today, I got notice that I am receiving a check for $584.66, which is the original purchase price and the repair cost I paid. I won't call loyalty regained because I am only financially put back together, but I am very happy that there is a resolution I can live with. 

My take aways:
1. I believe most people have few problems with echo products, but you're pretty much SOL if you need a warranty. The experience I had was straight ridiculous. Their warranty is a joke, they'll blame it on you from the beginning and before seeing the saw, and they will do everything to avoid paying. There was a point I almost just walked away from this mess, and I think that's what they bank on people doing. I don't believe the customer is always right, but if you know you are...be direct but calm, cite the applicable laws, and don't take no for an answer. 
2. A lot of the technical talk on this page is too far in the weeds for me to comment on. But in my case, contrary to what more than a few people on here asserted, this was not a case of "my mistake," the gas I ran, or running the saw improperly tuned. The saw I had has some fundamental issue.
3. In the mean time, I needed to get another saw. I am now running a STIHL. Sorry echo, you could've kept me by treating me right the first time.

Thanks for all the thoughts and replies to this board. There is a lot of knowledge on here, and I really respect that.

The best


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## SEAM (Oct 11, 2019)

I am glad you got your money back and hope you will fare better with your next choice.
How saw dust should kill a saw in such a short time is beyond me - I've seen saws that were run with practically no filtration over extended periods of time and still did run.


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## stilh036prohog (Oct 11, 2019)

They always blame the gas.


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## champion221elite (Oct 11, 2019)

stilh036prohog said:


> They always blame the gas.



Glad the OP got his money back. I have the same saw, CS490 and it's been perfect. No dust ingestion at all. Id be curious to learn how it was bypassing the filter.


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## Brent Nowell (Oct 11, 2019)

Sonny,

You are a trooper! I am very happy to hear that you got your money back. I have had bad service from a reputable dealer and I have bought all of my saws there. It is frustrating when they don’t know what they are doing, and/or sluff you off with a “it’s a privilege to shop here ok” tone.

The fact that you had to verbally talk legalese to get what you deserved is alarming, but IMO very very plausible given what I have experienced myself.
There are some very very good dealers out there, but there are also some very poor ones. I wish I lived near spike60’s shop 

Glad you found a saw that is working, I hope that any customer service you may need will be better. I hope you were able to change dealers as well.

I would encourage you to post here if you have questions, the run of people here are actually very helpful most of the time. This thread may have given you a negative feeling for the crowd here, and if it did I assure you that there are people here who want to help you such as myself and many others...


Good luck!


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## holeycow (Oct 11, 2019)

What an incredible PITA.!

At least you got some satisfaction in the end.


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## Cliff R (Oct 12, 2019)

Dust ingestion destroying the P/C in that short of a time? It's amazing an MS-660 lives past the first tank of fuel you run thru one. I think they run my dust and chips thru the engine than they do on the ground!

Seriously, the CS-490 is a decent little saw, but a bit "weak" for the CC's. I've set up a few of them as mentioned and every single one has led a good life to date. One of my customers owns a tree removal service and uses his as a limbing saw and his ground crew has been running the bag off of it for several years now right along side a CS-590 I set up for him. Both have been flawless to date but they look pretty "rough" as that sort of life is about as hard on a saw as it gets.......Cliff


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## mountainlake (Oct 12, 2019)

Dust ingestion sounds like dealer bs to me, most likely tuned lean. Steve


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## Cliff R (Oct 12, 2019)

+2, 3, 4, 5 and 6!

I don't buy into the "dust ingestion" BS. Every single Echo saw I've pulled out of the box and set up for myself or my customers has REQUIRED more fuel added to the tune to make them happy. IF I would have left them as-is they would have "smoked" the P/C's, some in pretty short order as they were WAY too lean.

This fact makes buying used Echo saws a crap-shoot as many of them you will find on Ebay will have some metal "smeared" over the ring on the exhaust side of the piston, have seen this WAY too much for my liking and prefer to buy them NIB and modify them before they have any run time on them......FWIW......Cliff


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## Listen Up Sonny (Oct 12, 2019)

mountainlake said:


> Dust ingestion sounds like dealer bs to me, most likely tuned lean. Steve



There definitely was sawdust in the cylinders. There was also gas soaking the air filter. Something was seriously wrong with the unit. Without an autopsy by a knowledgeable person, I'll probably never know why it was bogus. I never bought the notion that I ran a dull chain. To be honest, I think the decision making comes from echo corporate. The dealer is reputable and doesn't actually selle echo chainsaws (maybe my first clue). Anyway, I did push back against this. They seemed like a White House staffer trying to defend some of the crazy talk from up top, LOL. I don't really think they believed it. The owner of the shop was the person that got me in contact with the right person at echo. Once I got to the top, people were reasonable to work with. I think they have a gauntlet of underlings to throw you off the scent.


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## CR888 (Oct 12, 2019)

Funny thing is under every Echo advertising poster or tag on their product in big bold letters the sprout '5 YEAR WARRANTY' and so many noobies always say the 5 yr warranty was what made them buy an Echo over an x..y..z.


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## BGE541 (Oct 12, 2019)

Dahmer said:


> HD will only honor taking it back 90 days, you have to buy the extra warranty for longer coverage. The Echo warranty is a joke. I had a 400 break a piston after 10 months, Echo denied the warranty on the fact I had a champion plug in instead of the issued NGK. I love my Echo saws, just don’t expect any consideration from Echo, they’re a joke on warranty. If you buy another Echo, mod the muffler, remove limiter caps on carb and retune, don’t worry about “voiding” the warranty, there is none.



I know this is an old thread but I’m calling BS on this... you never have to tell Echo what plug you are using nor do the investigate (other then the Engine Failure Diagnosis form to verify heat range) but none of that has to be involved. Sounds like you have a shitty dealer or have only bought them from a box store which does nothing at all to make sure they run right out of the box. 

The fact that people buy outdoor equipment from these stores are a joke. Don’t expect support from a big box store... You are telling me a independent dealer should go to bat for you (someone that bought it a H D to save $15) but now you want them to spend the time and man power to put together a claim and fight for you, ok...


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## Deleted member 149229 (Oct 12, 2019)

BGE541 said:


> I know this is an old thread but I’m calling BS on this... you never have to tell Echo what plug you are using nor do the investigate (other then the Engine Failure Diagnosis form to verify heat range) but none of that has to be involved. Sounds like you have a shitty dealer or have only bought them from a box store which does nothing at all to make sure they run right out of the box.
> 
> The fact that people buy outdoor equipment from these stores are a joke. Don’t expect support from a big box store... You are telling me a independent dealer should go to bat for you (someone that bought it a H D to save $15) but now you want them to spend the time and man power to put together a claim and fight for you, ok...


Wish I knew everything like you do, wish I still had the rejection letter from Echo. My dealer quit the business because he kept getting all the repair warranty work from HD and not getting reimbursed from Echo. Echo put him off for 10 months before making the determination to reject the warranty, the saw was sent to them. Here’s a pic of the broken piston on the intake side, you tell me how it happened. Echo claimed wrong plug and my fault.


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## BGE541 (Oct 12, 2019)

Dahmer said:


> View attachment 765369
> 
> Wish I knew everything like you do, wish I still had the rejection letter from Echo. My dealer quit the business because he kept getting all the repair warranty work from HD and not getting reimbursed from Echo. Echo put him off for 10 months before making the determination to reject the warranty, the saw was sent to them. Here’s a pic of the broken piston on the intake side, you tell me how it happened. Echo claimed wrong plug and my fault.



I don’t know “everything” but I do know Echos... some of them. One thing to note... that is not the intake side of the piston (the transfers sweep forward and the arrow towards the exhaust). Any dealer that does warranty’s often should be able to get it done fairly quickly and know that they don’t get reimbursed but rather credited to their echo account. I will say that to me it looks like a piston material failure by the breakage of the piston and lack of overall transfer ie no ring failure. I will say that Echos 2 strokes get a lot out of a small package and people often dismiss the fact that proper lubrication is key. Oil is not just oil, it lubricates, cools, and cleans and has an effect on everything it touches. I’m not saying that was your cause for failure but rather an observation that is common in “big box store” purchases and failures. 

If you every need support or parts, let me know I’d be happy to help you or anyone on this forum out.


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## Deleted member 149229 (Oct 12, 2019)

Amazing how my dealer, me and Echo all said intake side. Guess we were all wrong.


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## BGE541 (Oct 12, 2019)

Dahmer said:


> Amazing how my dealer, me and Echo all said intake side. Guess we were all wrong.



I appreciate your sarcasm when you can see in the other photos that the ring pin is on the rear (4:30) side of the piston and the small arrow points towards the exhaust port (as shown in the CS400 manual when it talks about piston specs.) 

I’m just trying to assist and clarify but it’s clear you’re not interested, I’ll pack sand.


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## mountainlake (Oct 13, 2019)

Dahmer said:


> Amazing how my dealer, me and Echo all said intake side. Guess we were all wrong.


 
If that was the intake side when the saw was pulled apart, the piston was in backwards. No likely but could happen. Steve


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## Wow (May 14, 2020)

fulladirt said:


> Has anyone ever had a GOOD experience dealing with Echo warranty?


To answer " did anyone ever have a good outcome trying to get Echo Warranty Service?" 
NOT ME!!!! I've bought 4 Echo saws and IMHO the cs310 (is crap) the cs352 a LOT better saw ( crappy chain catcher), dealer would not stand behind a Month old saw, about 1.0 hour or less of use. On the other hand its a good light saw a LOT better than cs310 and worth the price difference. A cs 490. So far so good keeps up with my Sthil 026. A cs590, so far so good a tad bigger and stronger than the Sthil 029. How do I feel about my Echo Dealer?. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. I am very mad. Do I really believe Echo Warranty is any Good! Ha. Ha. Ha. Really! Are you serious! Ha. Ha. I'm laughing so hard I'm chocking. Oh! Wait! I'm chocking back tears. 
But, wait!!!! I can actually fix and tune my own saws. 
So!!!!!!! 
In my case,. Echo saws are pretty good BECAUSE they are lighter than my Sthils. 
I'm past 72 yo. Getting old and weaker. In fact I can barely do my Finger Tip Push ups these days. Lighter saws make me work more often. However, Yesterday, I was clearing Storm damage. A big ole Pine Tree. I carried two saws to the job. Opted to use my very old Sthil 029 with a 24 inch bar with a professional chain hand filed very sharp, MM well tuned. It just needed running.
When I laid into that tree the Home owner smiled. He was very impressed. He said, man that saw really cuts well. In fact he asked about buying the saw. Since I have an Echo cs 590 and really don't need the Sthil I guess I could let it go for 300 bucks, maybe! But Echo Warranty is the Subject! Right!
So,,,,has anyone seen any Flying Saucers hoovering over their houses lately?. They tell me if you see an Ailen Eating boiled eggs drinking beer and speaking Japanese, then no Problem, Echo will fix your saw for free for the full 5 year warranty. My dog believes it's true too. He just barked 3 times and licked himself. Wait! Was that my dog or my dealer! Getting hard to tell the difference. Might as well buy your Echo whereever you get the lowest price and hope for the best. My opinion. 
Good luck.


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## SEAM (May 14, 2020)

Nice reading - you are in a love-hate relationship with your Echos .
I never buy saws with warranty, so I wouldn't know. But I guess light weight comes with breaks easy. There is no such thing as a bullet proof and featherweight power tool.


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## motoguy (May 14, 2020)

CR888 said:


> Funny thing is under every Echo advertising poster or tag on their product in big bold letters the sprout '5 YEAR WARRANTY' and so many noobies always say the 5 yr warranty was what made them buy an Echo over an x..y..z.



I bought my C501p and CS620PW because they seemed to be well regarded saws, and Echo had a good reputation. I knew I'd be removing the carb plugs and doing a muffler mod as soon as they arrived, so warranty was a non-issue. They've been great saws the couple of years I've had them. 

You pays your money and you takes your chances.


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## Wow (May 14, 2020)

motoguy said:


> I bought my C501p and CS620PW because they seemed to be well regarded saws, and Echo had a good reputation. I knew I'd be removing the carb plugs and doing a muffler mod as soon as they arrived, so warranty was a non-issue. They've been great saws the couple of years I've had them.
> 
> You pays your money and you takes your chances.


In my case the Store Owner lets the Manager handle the Saws. They sell Sthil and Echo. Back in 2015 I bought my first Echo the cs590. Never had the first Problem. Then 3 more sae purchases later the Manager that was really honest suddenly left. When I took the new cs352 in the door the New Manager was on duty. I recognized him as someone from a different dealership where I felt should be named Rip em off equipment company. I already knew BEFORE he opened his mouth that Id better be ready for a denial. I try not to hate anyone but this guy has cost that dealer several sells because I am a man lots of people ask advice from. I'll send em elsewhere. So in the end a 12 dollar part cost that dealer dearly. It's gonna hurt Echo too.
One skunk can stink up a whle village. At my age I'll be lucky to be working another 10 years so probably won't but another saw. However, as long as I'm alive I'll croak like a Mill Pond Frog. A lot of people will hear m croaking and drive right past. Echo will loose too. People need to realize the people they hire xan make or break a company. When a dog bites it's the Owner who pays. Good luck.


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## Cliff R (May 15, 2020)

This Forum exists to educate folks and most are handy enough to do their own work, like removing limiter caps and giving these new saws sold to meet EPA the fuel they REQUIRE to live a long and healthy life.

If you "smoke" a P/C on a new piece of power equipment because you ran it before removing the limiter caps for custom tuning you may be forced to deal with some dealer BS and trouble getting help with Warranty issues, etc. Customer service in all industries seems to be seriously lacking these days.

A very good friend of mine was a depot level service tech for Echo, highly skilled and knowledgeable. They cut him loose during some "downsizing" about 10 years ago, shame on them. He told me that nearly all the issues he was seeing with smoked P/C's was nothing more than Echo pleasing the EPA and willing to accept a percentage of smoked P/C's as a result. He highly recommended WAY back in 2003 when we first met to not put one minute run time on any of their power equipment without removing the limiter caps and custom tuning. 

He also stressed TCW-III oil and good quality fuel. I've had ZERO failures and have purchased, tuned, sold and ran/run more Echo chainsaws than most who will read this. Some are so lean right out of the box they will barely pull a load till fully heat soaked and then still "anemic" from being too lean. Combine that with some restrictive mufflers (CATS) and deflectors and it's a recipe for disaster.

On the other side of that coin IF the new owner of a CS-590, for example removes the limiter caps, custom tunes, uses good fuel and oil you will find yourself with a saw that will last for DECADES and never grumble once. I've been running the dog living chit out of a CS-370 and a CS-590 for many years now just to see if I can kill them, and they are FLAWLESS!

From time to time these threads come up and folks bash shops and Warranty stuff. I get all that but it should not deter others from buying some of Echos' excellent products and taking the time to custom tune them BEFORE placed in service. I'll bet very few if any folks who do that will have nothing but good results and enjoy a long service life from that piece of equipment.....FWIW......Cliff


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## North by Northwest (May 15, 2020)

Cliff R said:


> This Forum exists to educate folks and most are handy enough to do their own work, like removing limiter caps and giving these new saws sold to meet EPA the fuel they REQUIRE to live a long and healthy life.
> 
> If you "smoke" a P/C on a new piece of power equipment because you ran it before removing the limiter caps for custom tuning you may be forced to deal with some dealer BS and trouble getting help with Warranty issues, etc. Customer service in all industries seems to be seriously lacking these days.
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct Cliff within the Echo dilemma . I have experience rejetting a few CS400 echo,s that were so lean that they could not be tuned fat enough . However majority of the echo,s can be tuned with just limiter or Welch plug removal . Unfortunate that echo has this mind set , overall a quality product . I can just imagine this scenario , within purchasing a new vehicle lmao .


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## Goofaroo (May 15, 2020)

I don’t know why this is always discussed as a problem with Echo. As far as I can tell every chainsaw brand is required to meet EPA regulations. Do you Husky and Stihl fans just run them straight out of the box as delivered?

By the way, my CS450 that I bought new well over 10 years ago tunes perfectly within the range of the limiters.


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## Cliff R (May 15, 2020)

I do EXACTLY the same with Stihl unless it's a later "bottom end" model with a fixed jet carb on it. They all like, want and respond well to adding some fuel/custom tuning.

Husqvarna small power equipment seems to be closer to "ideal" right out of the box, Stihl not too bad, but in contrast Echo traditionally er's more on the lean end of the scale and why it is NOT an option (IMHO) to run one right out of the box vs spending a few minutes giving them the fuel they need for best efficiency, power, and long life without taking a gamble on "smoking" the P/C. This goes WAY beyond their saws, plenty of good things waiting for you with their string trimmers and leaf blowers as well.

If you want to be like the masses and just buy equipment and expect it to be fine then you are opening up the door for having to find out how good, bad or useless their Warranty may be with these things. Custom tune, minor exhaust mod on a few models, use good oil mix, and proper maintenance and enjoy the equipment for many years w/o issue is more likely to be the case........FWIW......Cliff


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## Wow (May 15, 2020)

The only Echo saw I had a Problem with is the cs 352. I believe the Clutch Cover is a factor defect. On the cs310 the saw is weak enough to not break first time you drop a chain. The cs352 clutch cover is the same as the 310. On the cs352 it's just weak. The part is around 12 bucks but my issue is the weakness in the part and the way my dealer reacted when I brought a new saw in for the broke (weak and thin cast) chain catcher. 
The bigger Echo saws have never needed a part yet other than chains and bars which no one expects those to be warranty. However a dealer gave Echo and himself a black eye over a 10/12 dollar part which I would have installed myself. Good service makes a company. Good day.


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## North by Northwest (May 15, 2020)

Not limited to Echo , have tuned numerous MS261 & MS361 back in the day that were lean from the factory . The carbs were referred to as epa compliant back then . All my Husky & my Dolkitas are tunablebwith either spline or double d or Pacman tools . I have lost count of the number of grass trimmers and blowers that I have been asked to tune or rejet , even a few lawnmowers with the auto chokes . I hate the thermostatic bimettalic units , although the alcohol filled units are not much better . I remember when dealers inspected and tuned all saws in the cut prior to sale across the board .


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## Cliff R (May 15, 2020)

I even have to "re-tune" many Honda small engines on power washers and generator sets as the ones sold more than about 10 years ago run lean on this new fuel. No one is taking that into account either, as it takes apprx 5-7 percent more of this new chit to equal older fuel blends.

Here's a great story on how that works although not chainsaw related. Customer comes in with a Honda 3000 watt generator that woln't start. Typically gen set, got used once about 8-10 years ago, purchased after a big storm took out power for week. Owner doesn't use it again, and it gets put away with Stabil in it and he thinks good to go till next time. ( I love Stabil and other additives used in lieu of dumping the fuel and putting fresh gas in it next time!)

Jump ahead to 2020, owner needs it and it refuses to start. I take the carb apart, remarkably it's pretty clean, only real problem is that the fuel is bad, can BARELY light it with a torch after dumping apprx 3 gallons into my gravel driveway. Usually I'm running for my life with that deal but this stuff burns more like kerosene than gasoline! Fresh fuel added, starts right up, runs OK until I push the choke all the way in, then it "hunts" profusely and under load will only pull about 82volts at rated wattage.

The owner tells me it's ALWAYS hunted a little bit till really warmed up no-load, but smooth under load. I tell him it's not even close to making rated wattage.

So with the 3000 watt load on it I gently pull in the choke flap and it speeds up to 115 volts and engine smooths right out. Push the choke back in and it falls right back to 80 something volts. Off comes the carb, and I open the main jet up .001". Back on it goes, and much better but still requires a little choke angle to pull rated load at 115-120 volts. 2 more tries at .001" each time and BINGO! It's now pulling 3000 watts at 115 volts without having to "tip" the choke in at all.

I run it for 45 minutes or so, top it off with fresh fuel and call him to come get it. I've done that EXACT same thing scores of times with older small 4 stroke engines with fixed jets in them, and all but a few were Honda's. Honda seems to be much better at pleasing the EPA even back then had their stuff right on the edge, so now on this fuel many aren't up to par and need a little help.

As this relates to chainsaws they leave the factory these days with limiter caps and/or taper-proof mixture screws, and even fixed jets to keep anyone from fattening them up where they really need to be. Also keep in mind that with all that said the folks making these saws have little if any control over what part of the Country they end up in (altitude and DA), fuel quality that's going to be used in them, etc. Factor all that into this conversation and it's amazing we don't see a LOT more "smoked" P/C's than we do with these saws.........Cliff


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## North by Northwest (May 15, 2020)

Cliff R said:


> I even have to "re-tune" many Honda small engines on power washers and generator sets as the ones sold more than about 10 years ago run lean on this new fuel. No one is taking that into account either, as it takes apprx 5-7 percent more of this new chit to equal older fuel blends.
> 
> Here's a great story on how that works although not chainsaw related. Customer comes in with a Honda 3000 watt generator that woln't start. Typically gen set, got used once about 8-10 years ago, purchased after a big storm took out power for week. Owner doesn't use it again, and it gets put away with Stabil in it and he thinks good to go till next time. ( I love Stabil and other additives used in lieu of dumping the fuel and putting fresh gas in it next time!)
> 
> ...


Yep I hear you . I have ran into the same situations . The majority of small engine complaints can be sourced back to poor quality fuel and bandaid solutions . Like I said when ever I purchased a *** unit I insisted it was serviced and tuned for my usage .


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## Wow (May 15, 2020)

Cliff that's great to know. I've seen the exact thing. Had a Briggs 4 cycle hunting. The factory carb was replaced by an aftermarket which is more like the older carbs. Runs great. Right now I am snowed. Have a 4cycle 6 ish hp Koler on a Tiller doing what you described. A Bigger Briggs on a DR Stump grinder, same thing. What tool are you using to open jets?
Where can they be found?
One time I had something kinda like a small twisted wire that seemed to work on some things. 
Do they make a drill bit that small?
About Generators. I have 4 and my favorite is a very old one bought at a Resell store. Maybe Big Lots ? Price I remember. 230 bucks 3600 surge 3,000 continuous. At the time girl friend said, DO YOU REALLY need that EXPENSIVE thing. I replied, no but I want it. That engine is a clone. Honda 6 hp. It's used often. Never fails. Adjustable carb. I have no experience with HF generators but some I see have the muffler to near the Power source and the inner wires get to hot. Insulation melts, gen shorts, burns up stator. Warranty no good seller blames owner saying You over loaded the generator.
I'm removing gas tank. Building heat shields adding a fan installing gas tank. Why must we actually re engeneer products we buy!!!
Look how thin the gussets are on this Clutch Cover. Those hold the Chain Catcher. I've actually added MORE plastic on mine. This fits Echo cs 352 and 310. Why can't Echo beef this up? Because they don't cover it by Warranty, maybe.
Thankfully, my other Echo saws seem to be better built. So I was told at dealer. Well THIS IS a cheap home owner saw. So does that mean, We built it with this flaw because we don't care?
I feel sorry for the normal people who buy stuff that breaks and are told, Oh its YOUR own fault. Have a great day.


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## North by Northwest (May 15, 2020)

Wow said:


> Cliff that's great to know. I've seen the exact thing. Had a Briggs 4 cycle hunting. The factory carb was replaced by an aftermarket which is more like the older carbs. Runs great. Right now I am snowed. Have a 4cycle 6 ish hp Koler on a Tiller doing what you described. A Bigger Briggs on a DR Stump grinder, same thing. What tool are you using to open jets?
> Where can they be found?
> One time I had something kinda like a small twisted wire that seemed to work on some things.
> Do they make a drill bit that small?
> ...


Yep cheap man made mold injected plastic . The homeowner level echo's are less quality . You buy the higher end models they become much better quality . P.S. for carb cleaning of jets or fuel circuits tag wire or welders torch cleaning tips along with carb cleaning fluid and compressed air. I purchased a ultrasonic cleaner for stubborn cases !


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## Wow (May 15, 2020)

Broken said:


> Yep cheap man made mold injected plastic . The homeowner level echo's are less quality . You buy the higher end models they become much better quality . P.S. for carb cleaning of jets or fuel circuits tag wire or welders torch cleaning tips along with carb cleaning fluid and compressed air. I purchased a ultrasonic cleaner for stubborn cases !


Ok. Now I can admit that for wears I've used small wire and welder tip cleaners. I felt if I said that someone may call me a Jake Leg. In fact, hobestly, at times, I DO rig stuff or use tools TOTALLY unrelated. For Example:
The sporting goods stores sell a skinny long shaft Fish Hook Remover with a clamp way out on the end. I wrap the teeth and that is perfect tool for putting fuel lines on Poulan and similar saws. When I was working in Propane we actually had brass tap in jets and tiny drills but I haven't seen them for these tiny carbs. AND, after I beefed up the clutch cover on the 352 it's a good little saw. My mid size Favorite is the cs490. The semi large saw is the cs 590. My brother bought the cs620P and uses it very little. I wish I had bought that saw but the 590 is a good saw. With the recent storms and High winds I'm snowed. My step Son, just today ased me how do I keep going. He's getting a knee Replacement soon and when he was 23 I could out work him. Genetics, and God. At 73 my life is great and I'm happier than I have ever been. 
My Sthil 029 is 21 years old and better than ever. The 024 is older. My guess is all these saws will out live me but I do baby them. I've got an old Jonsered top handle I've began to think has become to dangerous for me to use. I love tree work. Trimming, pruning, and felling. But it does kinda feel strange killing something we love. It seems kinda strange to love Chainsaws and Trees at the same time. Ha. Ha. 
But a guy can love guns and hate killing. Okay, I'm thinking this way to deep. Ha. Ha. Blessings.


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## cnczane (May 3, 2021)

Just reporting here that my Echo CS-490 which has been a rock for the three years I've owned it, working it hard mostly in the summers, after a solid week of daily all-day use, "just" "suddenly" began going downhill in running performance. It would act like it was flooding when revving up and its top speed gradually became slower, until finally I was resorting to "sawing" it back and forth to get it through the final cut. (Yep, I'm a dope, but I just didn't want to stop cutting until I knew an extended downtime for cleaning was justified. )

I could not find replacement air and fuel filters anywhere within 50 miles, and online was going to take a week. I disassembled (popped apart) the air filter, and washed it in laundry detergent (scrubbing with an old toothbrush) and hung it out to dry. Figuring that the fuel filter was always being washed in gas, I washed it in laundry detergent too, and set it out on a hot sidewalk in 80-degree sun. When I put them back in, performance was much improved, but still did not match the top performance of another saw of similar displacement.

Then I remembered the "spark arrestor" information I'd seen somewhere, and found it located on the side of the muffler. I, barely, removed two Phillips screws (M4x6 if you care--I'm going to replace them with hex socket screws because I came so close to stripping the heads) and found the arrestor screen. What's that they say about arteries? Well, I'd put it at about 85% blockage. I used a wire brush to "poke" rather than brush the screen and replaced it.

Performance went right back up to reliable.


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## cuinrearview (May 3, 2021)

Your spark plug has probably seen better days...


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## cnczane (May 6, 2021)

cuinrearview said:


> Your spark plug has probably seen better days...


Actually @cuinrearview, the plug looks like a picture of a "good" plug shown in those classic DIY auto repair books: not oily or burned, just an even coating of gray. I had it out before thinking of the arrestor and gave it a wire brushing. Yesterday I ran it all day and there was never a moment of hesitation to get full power. 

Incidentally I did replace the two Phillips/cross head screws with Allen/socket cap screws M4-0.7x6mm and used a little neverseize.


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## pioneerguy600 (May 6, 2021)

Wow said:


> Cliff that's great to know. I've seen the exact thing. Had a Briggs 4 cycle hunting. The factory carb was replaced by an aftermarket which is more like the older carbs. Runs great. Right now I am snowed. Have a 4cycle 6 ish hp Koler on a Tiller doing what you described. A Bigger Briggs on a DR Stump grinder, same thing. What tool are you using to open jets?
> Where can they be found?
> One time I had something kinda like a small twisted wire that seemed to work on some things.
> Do they make a drill bit that small?
> ...


To open carb jets, use micro drill bits and a pin vise like the set in the link below, Note, you turn these bits with your fingers not a powered drill
https://www.amazon.ca/FineGood-Prec...oding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B081WWQJ8D&pd_rd_r=6b18aae


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## tomalophicon (May 6, 2021)

I recently purchased a CS-310 and noticed that after every use there's a moderate amount of very fine wood particles behind the filter, trapped in the black plastic carb surround.


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## Wow (May 6, 2021)

tomalophicon said:


> I recently purchased a CS-310 and noticed that after every use there's a moderate amount of very fine wood particles behind the filter, trapped in the black plastic carb surround.


Did anyone ever hear anyone else (besides me) say. The Echo cs310 is not, no nunca, no ever is going to be half as good as the cs352. The cs310 is IMHO a market saw to drive the price up on the cs352. If Echo tossed the 310 right out the back door and dropped the price just a little bit on the cs 352 id jump for Joy. Joy would probably Dodge me. Maybe even tell on me. But seriously. I HAD a cs310. The cs352 has better AV. Better motor not just 4 cc better, better as BETTER. Better Air breather. So the outside plastic looks the same. Salesman tells Johnny Homeowner. Ah, sir this in here is 199 an tax. That in over their is jus 4 cc bigger ifn you need bigger BUT they are identical really sepn da motor. No liar. Jesus hates you. Truth. Truth is I wasted money on a 310 before I realized I'd been hoping to ride the bull but It was me the bill rode. Please, everyone, please stop thinking just because some things favor they are sisters. Get the cs352 and pay the piper the difference. Echo knows this fact. But money honey, that's the name of the game. Disclaimer:
I hate the cs310 I had,. Yours might wash the car, do laundry and milk the goat. Ifn you like yourn well den I'ma happy pappy.


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## tomalophicon (May 6, 2021)

Wow said:


> Did anyone ever hear anyone else (besides me) say. The Echo cs310 is not, no nunca, no ever is going to be half as good as the cs352. The cs310 is IMHO a market saw to drive the price up on the cs352. If Echo tossed the 310 right out the back door and dropped the price just a little bit on the cs 352 id jump for Joy. Joy would probably Dodge me. Maybe even tell on me. But seriously. I HAD a cs310. The cs352 has better AV. Better motor not just 4 cc better, better as BETTER. Better Air breather. So the outside plastic looks the same. Salesman tells Johnny Homeowner. Ah, sir this in here is 199 an tax. That in over their is jus 4 cc bigger ifn you need bigger BUT they are identical really sepn da motor. No liar. Jesus hates you. Truth. Truth is I wasted money on a 310 before I realized I'd been hoping to ride the bull but It was me the bill rode. Please, everyone, please stop thinking just because some things favor they are sisters. Get the cs352 and pay the piper the difference. Echo knows this fact. But money honey, that's the name of the game. Disclaimer:
> I hate the cs310 I had,. Yours might wash the car, do laundry and milk the goat. Ifn you like yourn well den I'ma happy pappy.


 
Mine was extremely cheap from the box store - last one before they ditched echo  It won't be used for anything except backyard duties. Already drilled out the cat and destroyed the limiter caps.


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## North by Northwest (May 7, 2021)

tomalophicon said:


> I recently purchased a CS-310 and noticed that after every use there's a moderate amount of very fine wood particles behind the filter, trapped in the black plastic carb surround.


Try a little grease around the sealing edge of the filter . All Echos are set extremely lean from the factory , resetting the carb is paramount . Also a muffler mod makes them really wake up . The epa guideline mandate ties the factories hands , fortunately a little tuning makes these little wonders growl , especially the cs352 & cs400 .


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## North by Northwest (May 7, 2021)

Wow said:


> Did anyone ever hear anyone else (besides me) say. The Echo cs310 is not, no nunca, no ever is going to be half as good as the cs352. The cs310 is IMHO a market saw to drive the price up on the cs352. If Echo tossed the 310 right out the back door and dropped the price just a little bit on the cs 352 id jump for Joy. Joy would probably Dodge me. Maybe even tell on me. But seriously. I HAD a cs310. The cs352 has better AV. Better motor not just 4 cc better, better as BETTER. Better Air breather. So the outside plastic looks the same. Salesman tells Johnny Homeowner. Ah, sir this in here is 199 an tax. That in over their is jus 4 cc bigger ifn you need bigger BUT they are identical really sepn da motor. No liar. Jesus hates you. Truth. Truth is I wasted money on a 310 before I realized I'd been hoping to ride the bull but It was me the bill rode. Please, everyone, please stop thinking just because some things favor they are sisters. Get the cs352 and pay the piper the difference. Echo knows this fact. But money honey, that's the name of the game. Disclaimer:
> I hate the cs310 I had,. Yours might wash the car, do laundry and milk the goat. Ifn you like yourn well den I'ma happy pappy.


Hey pardner , good to hear from you again , how's the apple orchard ? Seems every manufacturer has an orphan saw series . Dolmar has the same scenerio with 510 vs the 5105 series , no comparison in performance & overall quality , small things that initially go unnoticed .


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## mountainlake (May 7, 2021)

With a muff modd and good tuning those CS352 cut good for 34cc. Steve


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## North by Northwest (May 7, 2021)

mountainlake said:


> With a muff modd and good tuning those CS352 cut good for 34cc. Steve


A little metal contouring & polishing makes them even better !


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## tomalophicon (May 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Try a little grease around the sealing edge of the filter . All Echos are set extremely lean from the factory , resetting the carb is paramount . Also a muffler mod makes them really wake up . The epa guideline mandate ties the factories hands , fortunately a little tuning makes these little wonders growl , especially the cs352 & cs400 .


Thanks. I'll try that. 
Yes first thing I did was drill out the cat and reset the tuning. This thing is impressive with a 12" bar. Sounds wicked for a small saw.


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## rickwil (May 8, 2021)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Long time lurker who just joined. I'm not a professional, but do a fair amount of sawing mainly for firewood and storm cleanup around my property. Thanks for the add. I just got off the phone with my local small engine guy, and he gave me the bad news that my Echo Cs-490 has scored engine cylinders and is not worth fixing. Up until a month ago, I was singing this saws praises and planning on buying the 680 during the next dealer days.
> 
> ...


I was mechanical supervisor for government forestry forest protection. After experiencing scored cylinders on some 2 stroke engines I switched our 2 stroke oil to Amsoil synthetic 2 stroke oil. In the next 2 years there were no more scored cylinders. An analysis lab report showed very little wear on an engine with 200 hours on it and very little ash and carbon deposits compared to one with regular 2 stroke oil. I'd rate Amsoil synthetic very high.


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## North by Northwest (May 8, 2021)

rickwil said:


> I was mechanical supervisor for government forestry forest protection. After experiencing scored cylinders on some 2 stroke engines I switched our 2 stroke oil to Amsoil synthetic 2 stroke oil. In the next 2 years there were no more scored cylinders. An analysis lab report showed very little wear on an engine with 200 hours on it and very little ash and carbon deposits compared to one with regular 2 stroke oil. I'd rate Amsoil synthetic very high.


Not to turn this into an oil thread , I also use Amsoil sabre . However improper tuning most likely caused this issue or an air leak . If warranty does not resolve . Put another piston & rings in it after you clean up the cylinder . It may have been boarder line lean requiring retuning to begin with from the factory , which a lot of Echo's are !


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## joe25DA (May 8, 2021)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> If my toyota blew up and I got a BMW, that would be a good thing, too...except for the payments.


I think you mean the opposite...


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## PoplarSlayer (Jan 1, 2022)

champion221elite said:


> Glad the OP got his money back. I have the same saw, CS490 and it's been perfect. No dust ingestion at all. Id be curious to learn how it was bypassing the filter.


I just bought the next in line model after the 490, the 4910. Love it, but after 4 tanks of gas I decided to pull the air filter and clean the underside. There was fine particulate/dust inside the filter in the area that seats on the carb horn. There was also a light coating of dust on the inside of the carb throat as well. The seal looks inadequate for doing the job, and looked slightly deformed on one side. Thankfully I noticed it relatively "early" and any wear should be negligible - I hope. I put some dielectric grease on the mating surface, burned a tank of gas and will be checking it again today.
It's ridiculous that the filter seal is so flimsy for such a critical function.


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## joe25DA (Jan 1, 2022)

undee70ss said:


> The bigger question is why it scored, there are other reasons besides straight gassing that can score pistons. You didn’t mention what ratio mix you were using, but tuned for a 50 to 1, and if you used let’s say 32 to 1, saw will run hotter and leaner and can score a piston if not re tuned for the different mix. There are many other reasons too. When a saw starts acting up, it’s best to stop using it and find out why before damage begins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Opposite. 50:1 is lean on the oil 32:1 more oil.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 1, 2022)

70's actually is correct , you must retune your saw to the richer oil mixture . More oil means less fuel in the air ratio which can lean your saw out . You must enriched the fuel to air ratio or you can overheat the powerhead !


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 1, 2022)

Listen Up Sonny said:


> So, honest question...looking back at what I've told you in the initial post, what could I've done differently and what's your definition of shitty gas? I know you're saying that I should've stopped using it when I noticed problems, but I essentially did. I shelved the saw when i noticed the bogging/stalling until I received the tune up kit, which took a week. Then, I didn't use it for a week. Then, I brought it back out, and used it for about 5 minutes until I realized the issue wasn't resolved. It took a few days to get to the small engine guy. Then, he had it for 8 days before he called with the bad news. When I say I noticed the problem start up a month ago, I was not using it daily.
> 
> Looking back, I changed the factory chain about 6 weeks ago because it just wasn't cutting as well as it used to. I attributed this to a worn out chain as I was still on the original. Maybe, that was the actual start of the problem? But, at that point, the engine seemed fine.
> 
> I know I'm not the most experienced 2 cycle guy, but I am very conscientious with my tools and aware of their behavior and discrepancies. I guess maybe you're just saying chainsaws are fragile beasts?


Chainsaws aren't fragile when set up right, they just require a bit of maintenance to stay that way. I've hardly ever received a saw to repair that wasn't filthy, neglected or abused. Wife thinks I should charge a substantial amount extra for cleaning a filthy saw before I repair it..


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 1, 2022)

RandyinTN said:


> Not very helpful. Plenty of people rag on Echos saying they are lean but then never pony up and offer a real solution on how to adjust them. If you truly do know what you are talking about why dont you tell us novice users how to adjust the screws.


I was told that the Echo saws have a fixed high speed jet, although a screw is there marked H it is only for fine adjustments and has only a one turn range. That's why the limiter is put on the screw. Turning it further than one turn actually doesn't make it richer, it's beyond the carb's limit. Like I said, I just read this but have had limited experience tuning Echo saws..I only have one Echo saw, a 330T.


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## PoplarSlayer (Jan 1, 2022)

The OP's saw was scored because of particle ingestion. It got in through the filter, presumably around the carb/filter seal. That's where my new saw is leaking. The OP posted this a few pages ago.


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## PoplarSlayer (Jan 1, 2022)

Broken said:


> 70's actually is correct , you must retune your saw to the richer oil mixture . More oil means less fuel in the air ratio which can lean your saw out . You must enriched the fuel to air ratio or you can overheat the powerhead !


Oil lubricates and cools as well, so...


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## North by Northwest (Jan 1, 2022)

PoplarSlayer said:


> Oil lubricates and cools as well, so...


 Extra Oil does not cool , it helps seal the rings in a high compression application and can in saws that are not tuned properly , for the extra oil cause deposits and over heating . Fuel cools a properly tuned saw !


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## olyman (Jan 1, 2022)

MontanaResident said:


> Like HD has a master Echo mechanic in the back gold-plating all Echo saws before they a lovingly sent to their new forever home.


since your a known steeeal fanboy take your"opinions"elsewhere..........


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## olyman (Jan 1, 2022)

Wow said:


> Did anyone ever hear anyone else (besides me) say. The Echo cs310 is not, no nunca, no ever is going to be half as good as the cs352. The cs310 is IMHO a market saw to drive the price up on the cs352. If Echo tossed the 310 right out the back door and dropped the price just a little bit on the cs 352 id jump for Joy. Joy would probably Dodge me. Maybe even tell on me. But seriously. I HAD a cs310. The cs352 has better AV. Better motor not just 4 cc better, better as BETTER. Better Air breather. So the outside plastic looks the same. Salesman tells Johnny Homeowner. Ah, sir this in here is 199 an tax. That in over their is jus 4 cc bigger ifn you need bigger BUT they are identical really sepn da motor. No liar. Jesus hates you. Truth. Truth is I wasted money on a 310 before I realized I'd been hoping to ride the bull but It was me the bill rode. Please, everyone, please stop thinking just because some things favor they are sisters. Get the cs352 and pay the piper the difference. Echo knows this fact. But money honey, that's the name of the game. Disclaimer:
> I hate the cs310 I had,. Yours might wash the car, do laundry and milk the goat. Ifn you like yourn well den I'ma happy pappy.


so Jesus hates him,,,your the liar,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## PoplarSlayer (Jan 1, 2022)

Broken said:


> Extra Oil does not cool , it helps seal the rings in a high compression application and can in saws that are not tuned properly , for the extra oil cause deposits and over heating . Fuel cools a properly tuned saw !


Any mass (oil in this case) at ambient temps being sucked into a higher temperature environment will absorb some of that heat, thereby cooling the new environment it finds itself in - the crankcase, then cylinder. So yes, oil cools, along with the fuel it's mixed in. I'd expect raw gasoline to absorb heat faster than oil, but at what point does extra oil make a significant difference?


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## lostone (Jan 1, 2022)

PoplarSlayer said:


> Any mass (oil in this case) at ambient temps being sucked into a higher temperature environment will absorb some of that heat, thereby cooling the new environment it finds itself in - the crankcase, then cylinder. So yes, oil cools, along with the fuel it's mixed in. I'd expect raw gasoline to absorb heat faster than oil, but at what point does extra oil make a significant difference?


Todays oils are a LOT better than the old oils and don't need to be mixed so heavily, To much oil in the mix actually causes problems because now you get carbon build up that can damage the piston (especially at the exhaust port) even Homelite had in their manuals to pull the muffler cover and if carbon was built up to pull the engine over until the piston covered the port and use something soft like wood or plastic to remove the carbon build up.
A lot of people confuse lean/rich with the oil mixture ratio. Lean and Rich refer only to the fuel to air ratio, take carborated cars for example, oil has nothing to do with lean and rich it's only air to fuel ratio and it's the same on 2 strokes as well. To little fuel either being the jet is in to far or to much oil which displaces fuel by volume causes the engine to run lean. So the heavier the oil mix ratio the leaner the saw runs and has to have the jets set richer to compensate.
Again I know it gets confusing and I was under the belief that more oil was better until I read some repair manuals that explained it to where I could understand it but Broken is correct in saying more oil makes an engine run leaner, Hopefully I explained it well enough for you to understand the reasoning behind why it works that way.


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## PoplarSlayer (Jan 1, 2022)

lostone said:


> Todays oils are a LOT better than the old oils and don't need to be mixed so heavily, To much oil in the mix actually causes problems because now you get carbon build up that can damage the piston (especially at the exhaust port) even Homelite had in their manuals to pull the muffler cover and if carbon was built up to pull the engine over until the piston covered the port and use something soft like wood or plastic to remove the carbon build up.
> A lot of people confuse lean/rich with the oil mixture ratio. Lean and Rich refer only to the fuel to air ratio, take carborated cars for example, oil has nothing to do with lean and rich it's only air to fuel ratio and it's the same on 2 strokes as well. To little fuel either being the jet is in to far or to much oil which displaces fuel by volume causes the engine to run lean. So the heavier the oil mix ratio the leaner the saw runs and has to have the jets set richer to compensate.
> Again I know it gets confusing and I was under the belief that more oil was better until I read some repair manuals that explained it to where I could understand it but Broken is correct in saying more oil makes an engine run leaner, Hopefully I explained it well enough for you to understand the reasoning behind why it works that way.


Thanks for the response. I don't confuse oil mix ratio with lean and rich which describes amount of fuel to air ratio.
My response was not a suggestion that more oil is better either. It was simply an observation that oil does have cooling as well as lubrication properties. I expect it doesn't cool as efficiently, or at least as quickly as straight gasoline, because it vaporizes at higher temps than gasoline. Oil also burns and counts as fuel.
I can see however, that oil added to gasoline would reduce the amount of fuel that is actually burned during combustion in an internal combustion engine, thereby effectively causing a leaner burn.


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## Wow (Jan 2, 2022)

PoplarSlayer said:


> Any mass (oil in this case) at ambient temps being sucked into a higher temperature environment will absorb some of that heat, thereby cooling the new environment it finds itself in - the crankcase, then cylinder. So yes, oil cools, along with the fuel it's mixed in. I'd expect raw gasoline to absorb heat faster than oil, but at what point does extra oil make a significant difference.





olyman said:


> so Jesus hates him,,,your the liar,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Oops e poo. Someone seems to have taken that comment seriously. I doubt Jesus hates anyone. I know I don't. That salesman was hypothetical. My weird sense of humor thing. So lets all agree. It has some truth, some hypothetical, and some humor. Have a great day.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 2, 2022)

PoplarSlayer said:


> Any mass (oil in this case) at ambient temps being sucked into a higher temperature environment will absorb some of that heat, thereby cooling the new environment it finds itself in - the crankcase, then cylinder. So yes, oil cools, along with the fuel it's mixed in. I'd expect raw gasoline to absorb heat faster than oil, but at what point does extra oil make a significant difference?


Yes , some flashing oil will wick off ambient heat but the fuel is much more efficient by chemical composition to more readily accomplish this task . The jest of my comments is that more saws are damaged by dull chains & improper tuning than oil starvation . More oil can cause potential damage unless your saw is tuned accordingly . Also not all oils are equal either within this equation either  .


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## mountainlake (Jan 2, 2022)

more saws are damaged by dull chains & improper tuning than oil starvation


Most saws are damaged by running them when they dont run right for what ever reason. Quit running them when they dont run right. Steve


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## North by Northwest (Jan 2, 2022)

PoplarSlayer said:


> Thanks for the response. I don't confuse oil mix ratio with lean and rich which describes amount of fuel to air ratio.
> My response was not a suggestion that more oil is better either. It was simply an observation that oil does have cooling as well as lubrication properties. I expect it doesn't cool as efficiently, or at least as quickly as straight gasoline, because it vaporizes at higher temps than gasoline. Oil also burns and counts as fuel.
> I can see however, that oil added to gasoline would reduce the amount of fuel that is actually burned during combustion in an internal combustion engine, thereby effectively causing a leaner burn.


Sorry bud , did not see this previous post . Your on the same page , Re: Fuel to oil ratio vs Fuel to air ratio's within tuning . Actually , in my opinion richer oil ratios from 32:1 on through to the infamous 16:1 is where oil becomes a liability within today's chainsaws & premium oils ( exception in Milling applications with proper tuning )The Optimium fuel to oil ratio in my opinion today is 45:1 with premium FD rated synthetic oil . Unless , as I believe you understand the saw is run long enough & becomes hot enough to burn off the oil residue that is initially used for lubrication , cooling & energy it will become a liability as potential engine deposits that after a finite period become carbon that can wreak havoc within piston dome , ring & exhaust port carbon fouling . Proper mixing along with proper tuning & oil selection to your cutting application , will ensure maximum performance & reliability . Happy New Yr. & enjoy your cutting !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 2, 2022)

mountainlake said:


> more saws are damaged by dull chains & improper tuning than oil starvation
> 
> 
> Most saws are damaged by running them when they dont run right for what ever reason. Quit running them when they dont run right. Steve


Buy Echo's Steve , end of concerns right ? lol. Especially your favorite CS400 with a muffler mod ! P.S. Your absolutely correct , if its not operating properly , do not continue to operate it , repair it .


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## ChasSC (Jan 3, 2022)

I had a "defective" decompression valve on a brand-new CS-590. I went back to the Echo Dealer (not big box store) and told him it was not releasing and sticking. He didn't even want to see the saw, he just believed me. He ordered a new one, called me when it came in. When I went to pick it up, I told him I could install it if I had the torque value, but it was probably the same as the spark plug. Hit went in the back and came back with a torque sheet. It only showed the spark plug no mention of the decompression valve. He handed it to me and said he put it in as a warranty repair, so he made some money on it, I guess. When I started to replace it, and removed the rubber cap, I saw a dry shaft in new rubber, I sprayed some liquid graphite on the shaft, waited for it to dry and it functioned perfectly. The H and L adjustments were turned maxed out. There had never been any gas in the tank, it was dry as a bone, so I know he never tested or setup my saw before selling it to me, came right off the shelf. It had a Rotary Copperhead Full Chisel chain on it. Come to find out later, he orders the head, the bar and the chains separately. No boxes, I saw one come in UPS while I was there. He is also the Echo Service Center in my area. Don't know if he would go to bat for me if I had another issue under warranty, but I doubt it. Here's the chart Echo uses in diagnosing engine failure analysis.


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## HuskyP (Jan 14, 2022)

I've got a CS-590 too, and our echo dealers/servicers around here in southern PA are great. I run my saw easy (meaning I let it do all the work). I've put a lot of hours on it over the last few years and it still runs like new. I just pulled the muffler two days ago and the piston looks new on the exhaust port side. When I hear of someone cooking a new CS-490 or a CS-590, I wonder how they were running it and what fuel mix they were running. A chainsaw can only put it with so much, just like a good truck. Treat them right and you can get a life-time of use from them. But if you hot rod them and beat them up, expect the early death of a hot rod. I see my saws as edge tools, and like all edge tools, taking care of them and maintaining them properly is essential.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 14, 2022)

HuskyP said:


> I've got a CS-590 too, and our echo dealers/servicers around here in southern PA are great. I run my saw easy (meaning I let it do all the work). I've put a lot of hours on it over the last few years and it still runs like new. I just pulled the muffler two days ago and the piston looks new on the exhaust port side. When I hear of someone cooking a new CS-490 or a CS-590, I wonder how they were running it and what fuel mix they were running. A chainsaw can only put it with so much, just like a good truck. Treat them right and you can get a life-time of use from them. But if you hot rod them and beat them up, expect the early death of a hot rod. I see my saws as edge tools, and like all edge tools, taking care of them and maintaining them properly is essential.


Enjoy your saw , run quality fuel / oil it will last many yrs !


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## Brufab (Jan 14, 2022)

fulladirt said:


> Thanks for the update.
> Sad that you were treated like that man I'd be pissed too.
> We have 2 Echo saws (bought from a good dealer)
> Has anyone ever had a GOOD experience dealing with Echo warranty?


Was cutting maple logs that were partially submerged in a river with a cs 400. The saw died out after sometime. Dealer said there was water in it  probly was I thought. But after further inspection the coil was replaced. Saw was probly out of warranty we were thinking but from a reputable dealer we have made other purchases thru (weingartz) total cost was 35$ I think. Thinking coil may have been damaged by water if it had a crack? But that's my only experience. Maybe he billed Echo off of one of my newer ones and it was only water in carb? And made $ off of a coil replacement??? 4 cs-400 2 cs-590 1 of those massive Echo backpack blowers pb 9010t I think it is. Plus an old gray 30 year old srm 2100 and a newer Echo straight shaft trimmer. No issues on any of them other than the time I was water logging. I buy from dealer and they tune saw and assemble it and send me home with full tanks of gas and bar oil.


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## Wow (Jan 14, 2022)

Ran my cs590 today. Absolutely love that saw. Ibuprofen is helping me manage my spinal stenosis. Still putting off surgery. I enjoy working. At 75 im not ready to totally retire. Tree work is my only drug. It relaxes me. Hard work makes my body feel good. I enjoy the sound of my saws. It's addictive. Beats sitting and watching TV.


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## Doorfx (Jan 14, 2022)

Wow said:


> Ran my cs590 today. Absolutely love that saw. Ibuprofen is helping me manage my spinal stenosis. Still putting off surgery. I enjoy working. At 75 im not ready to totally retire. Tree work is my only drug. It relaxes me. Hard work makes my body feel good. I enjoy the sound of my saws. It's addictive. Beats sitting and watching TV.



I just had surgery for L-4,5 spinal stenosis ( Nov. 29). Best decision I’ve made. 20+ years of pain and now I’m almost pain free. Do it.


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## Wow (Jan 15, 2022)

Doorfx said:


> I just had surgery for L-4,5 spinal stenosis ( Nov. 29). Best decision I’ve made. 20+ years of pain and now I’m almost pain free. Do it.


Did they cut your back muscles and remove part of the bone ? Can you sleep on your back? Are you able to run a saw lift trailer tongues and work? Can you get on your back and slide under a tractor to work on it? How long were you laid up? Is there any advice you would like to tell me? Im all ears. Thanks


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## HuskyP (Jan 15, 2022)

Wow said:


> Ran my cs590 today. Absolutely love that saw. Ibuprofen is helping me manage my spinal stenosis. Still putting off surgery. I enjoy working. At 75 im not ready to totally retire. Tree work is my only drug. It relaxes me. Hard work makes my body feel good. I enjoy the sound of my saws. It's addictive. Beats sitting and watching TV.


I love your outlook. If you can manage your spinal struggles with ibuprofen and good honest hard work, I say keep it going forever. I’m with ya! I can’t watch TV. I get weird. I need to tinker with something, split firewood, play outside with my kiddos, chat with my wife by the fire, go on a crazy logging adventure, see what other crazy people like me think on arboristsite! “Hard work makes my body feel good.” That’s the straight truth and worth living by! Thank you


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## North by Northwest (Jan 15, 2022)

HuskyP said:


> I love your outlook. If you can manage your spinal struggles with ibuprofen and good honest hard work, I say keep it going forever. I’m with ya! I can’t watch TV. I get weird. I need to tinker with something, split firewood, play outside with my kiddos, chat with my wife by the fire, go on a crazy logging adventure, see what other crazy people like me think on arboristsite! “Hard work makes my body feel good.” That’s the straight truth and worth living by! Thank you


Yep , keep as active as possible . If ibuprofen is adequate to take the edge off your fortunate . At 68 with previous spinal fusion C-5 & C-6 & hip replacements I still motor on , slower but forward no the less lol. P.S. ( wow) Hope your Apple Orchard is still active brother !


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## Doorfx (Jan 15, 2022)

Wow said:


> Did they cut your back muscles and remove part of the bone ? Can you sleep on your back? Are you able to run a saw lift trailer tongues and work? Can you get on your back and slide under a tractor to work on it? How long were you laid up? Is there any advice you would like to tell me? Im all ears. Thanks



Yes they had to grind and remove bone to make room for the nerves. 
Yes I can sleep on my back. 
I just had the surgery end of November , surgeon says take it easy for 3 months. I feel I am good to go now, but I will listen to the doc. 
The best advice I can give you after the surgery is to learn exercises that will strengthen your back muscles. If you are carrying any excess weight try to lose it. You have half the battle won with your positive attitude. I won’t let anything stop me. 
I have had two cervical spine surgeries ,(2016,2018)and now one lumbar. They have all been great success stories. I will be out cutting firewood and riding my quad this year for sure.


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## Wow (Jan 16, 2022)

Doorfx said:


> Yes they had to grind and remove bone to make room for the nerves.
> Yes I can sleep on my back.
> I just had the surgery end of November , surgeon says take it easy for 3 months. I feel I am good to go now, but I will listen to the doc.
> The best advice I can give you after the surgery is to learn exercises that will strengthen your back muscles. If you are carrying any excess weight try to lose it. You have half the battle won with your positive attitude. I won’t let anything stop me.
> I have had two cervical spine surgeries ,(2016,2018)and now one lumbar. They have all been great success stories. I will be out cutting firewood and riding my quad this year for sure.


Wow.. I mean like WOW.. so glad to hear that. No i'm not over weight.. Until June 2020 I was able to Cycle.. I have been a Cyclist for many years..I would freak out if I got what I called fat..To much pride and way to active Ha. Ha..Lucky me, NO diabetes either.. In fact last year I was able to do a few push ups on my Finger Tips and a friend egged me on so he filmed it.. I think like 4. Ha. Ha. BUT 4, well that's 4..and 0 is nothing.. Ha. Ha..For a while as a YOUNG fool.. I boxed and did some martial arts..My 6 foot 4 grandson is big and strong, much stronger than me but my hands are bigger due to hard work.. In fact. Don't you hate it when GLOVES just don't fit then you get the big ones and the finger tips fold back. Ha. Ha..short fingers compared to thick hands..Gosh..can't have it all..Thanks guys. Men who work hard for a living are most often Good Hearted really decent people. I love this site..The Jerks that steal Chainsaws often can't even start them much less know how to properly run one. Here on the farm I pack..open carry a 9 on my boot holster...You know the type.. Just a good ole boy that absolutely can't stand thieves and liars...IF we were allowed to do so,, I know there's enough of us good guys who could limit crime by 50% in one weekend..BUT we gotta watch out what we say.. Political Prisoners are stacking up daily..I think in the next 5 years we may see a LOT of conservatives locked away..BUT on a better note..My grandson joined a police Department and is a full time cop. No one left here to help me anymore but I keep plodding along..He's a great honest kind but strong and able young man. Maybe he can do some good in spite of the political situation. Gotta stop for now and put some wood in the wood heater.. Love that smoking ole thing.. NO not my X wife. The wood heater. Ha. Ha..


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