# Lightning strike = dead tree every time?



## lawnmaniac883 (Sep 22, 2006)

Ok so this happened about 1 month ago I noticed a pine tree on a property I maintain had been struck by lightning. Direct strike, blew bark off one side of the tree and burned the grass around it. Here one month later the tree doesnt appear quite as deep green as the others around it but still doesnt show any serious signs of dying. A few burned branched and a sh!tload of sap comming down to the truck of it. Anyway, I am supposed to fell this thing tommorrow and am not sure if it is definately dead? I imagine it couldnt possibly survive a direct strike but?? Opinions? Appreciate the input.


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## begleytree (Sep 22, 2006)

I had a 50" dbh amer elm hit, direct strike last year. blew 6" wide and @6" deep from the top to the dirt. 
tree is fine, and the wound is nearly invisable now.
so, no. a strike isn't certian death.
(Owner had NOTHING done to the elm after the strike)
-Ralph

edit? dam I can't type tonight!!!


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## Adkpk (Sep 22, 2006)

I also say not certain death.


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## lawnmaniac883 (Sep 22, 2006)

The facility where it occured was at a church that actually had about the same thing happen last year except this one was larger and right next to one of the buildings. Struck by lightning then maybe 4 months later it died. 

I think I am going to go ahead with the removal because I sure as hell dont want to be cutting into dead arse wood in 4 months. BTW, I am going to replace this tree with two new pines, my way of keeping the place green


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## treeseer (Sep 22, 2006)

lawnmaniac883 said:


> blew bark off one side of the tree and burned the grass around it.


How much of one side of the tree --50% circumference?

Pines do not take it so well as elms and oaks. they are very straightgrained so crack deeper. Best to climb it and inspect bark before judging, but if a lot of bark is off >25%--, don't lose any sleep over it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 22, 2006)

i think some large trees can be (chemically?)altered by this. So this has Naturally selected a breed strain that can capitalize on the phenomenon; for an extreme example of lightning strikes not being certain death.


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## lawnmaniac883 (Sep 22, 2006)

treeseer said:


> How much of one side of the tree --50% circumference?
> 
> Pines do not take it so well as elms and oaks. they are very straightgrained so crack deeper. Best to climb it and inspect bark before judging, but if a lot of bark is off >25%--, don't lose any sleep over it.




Bark off is about 25% top to bottom, smaller branches are starting to brown in some spots. Tree also has a lean to it that leans right into a parking area, not a very good place for branches to fall because they are dead. Keep it commin fellas


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## l2edneck (Sep 22, 2006)

If its a slash pine ive yet to see one survive a direct hit.Usually takes a little time to die,but i would bank 95% certain death.Gimmie a call if ne thing i can do.


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## clearance (Sep 22, 2006)

Cut it down now, c'mon, you know its bad, leans at a parking lot, why keep a compromised tree that can kill?


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## squisher (Sep 23, 2006)

I agree with Clearance. In your assessment of this tree vehicles or people are a considerable target and it's already showing signs of decline. And you can get paid to remove it and replant two trees, do it.


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## lawnmaniac883 (Sep 23, 2006)

Deed was done, tree was dropped at 8:00 a.m. had all the stuff packed up by 11:00. Hardly any sap towards the top of the tree, the bottom was loaded though.


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## l2edneck (Sep 23, 2006)

3 hours good day


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## deercatcher (Sep 24, 2006)

Survival of a lightning strike is a function of two main elements; when in the storm the tree is hit, and the path the electricity takes. In the early lightning displays before the rainfall, the tree is dry and the path usually is deeper into the wet tissue of the tree. Rain wet trees may get a reprieve as current may pass along the wet bark. Strikes that are vertical kill a vascular column in the tree. A strike that helixes, or spirals, cuts or damages all the columns in the tree. Imagine the structure of a tree as a bundle of soda straws held together and stacked one bundle on top of another. The water is passed vertically, bundle to bundle with little diffusion to the sides.(Some species are better than others at latteral diffusion) The bulk of the transportation of fluids occurs just under the bark, in the current growth ring. Spiral injuries of lightning cut all the pathways. Electricity can be deflected away from the wood by metal structures, wires, clotheslines and such. Lightning protection systems handle the charge that way. Electrical resistence is lower in decayed wood, and a strike can internalize and ground through the interior of a tree with a substantial internal column of decay. The mechanism that kills trees is not electrocution. It is a steam explosion of the vaporized sap. Wood can be splintered internally, rendering the tree unstable and dangerous to climb without many obvious visual clues. For God's sake, you guys be careful on lightning struck trees, and always consider the potential targets if the tree fails. Trees fail two ways, a standing dead biological failure, and a mechanical failure of a tree that still has green leaves. So, a tree may survive a strike, only to decay and fall years later.


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## treeseer (Sep 24, 2006)

Interesting observations, thank you.



deercatcher said:


> Strikes that are vertical kill a vascular column in the tree. A strike that helixes, or spirals, cuts or damages all the columns in the tree. Imagine the structure of a tree as a bundle of soda straws held together and stacked one bundle on top of another. The water is passed vertically, bundle to bundle with little diffusion to the sides.(Some species are better than others at latteral diffusion) Spiral injuries of lightning cut all the pathways.



i'm not sure, but I think that these soda-straw bundles can twist, and the lightning 'helixes" (cool verb) when it follows that twist. That may explain why trees with spriral scars can survive long-term.

there was an excellent ceu article by kim coder in Arborist News. http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/arbnews/jun04/feature.aspx
one more example of ISA providing very practical information.

"Most lightning scars in trees follow the longitudinal axis of the xylem cells (wood grain). Xylem grain orientation develops based on mechanical loading in trees applied through bending and torque (twist). Some trees have straight grain, and some have unequal wind forces applied to their crowns (lopsidedness), causing xylem grain to spiral down the stem. Lightning scars can spiral down the stem following the longitudinal spiral pattern of the xylem elements. The initial electrical flow along the grain offers the least initial electrical resistance within a tree."

I didn't understand the whole article, but I did get that much.


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## xtremetrees (Sep 24, 2006)

LIghtening struck trees kill climbers. All of Pete's writing on the ISA forum where did it go? 
They kill most climbers after all the weight has been removed oddly enuff.
Normally they fail towards the base of the tree.
60 days ago I climbed one the crack opened enuff to stick your leg thru, after i got all the top out. Lightening struck are more dangerous than dead. By far.
If a tree gets struck once they will be singled out for future strikes. 
I theorize the ionic change acts like a magnet for lightening to ground.


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## Canyon Angler (Sep 26, 2006)

I have a sweet gum in the yard (maybe 12" DBH and 35' tall) that gets hit once or twice a year, I would guess. It's scarred like you wouldn't believe but I think you'd need a chainsaw to kill that tree.

The 42" DBH, 50' tall pecan on the property that got hit a month or so ago (I posted up some pics in the Arborist 101 board) also looks perfectly healthy, although that one has some SERIOUS bark blown off. Time will tell.

(I'm not an expert or a professional tree guy, just throwing this into the pot FWIW.)

Jeff


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## Doctor Dave (Sep 26, 2006)

lawnmaniac883 said:


> The facility where it occured was at a church that actually had about the same thing happen last year except this one was larger and right next to one of the buildings. Struck by lightning then maybe 4 months later it died.
> 
> I think I am going to go ahead with the removal because I sure as hell dont want to be cutting into dead arse wood in 4 months. BTW, I am going to replace this tree with two new pines, my way of keeping the place green


 

Just so happens that lightning-struck pines are very attractive to bark beetles---maybe that's what killed the other one. I wouldn't fell it until it is obviously dead---what's the rush?


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## KentuckySawyer (Sep 26, 2006)

lawnmaniac883 said:


> I think I am going to go ahead with the removal because I sure as hell dont want to be cutting into dead arse wood in 4 months.




No tree is going to deteriorate that much in 4 months unless it was already flawed.


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## hamradio (Oct 3, 2006)

Saw a big oak or basswood that got hit by lightning. Killed half, fell off, other half still lives 5-6 years later. I'm leaning towards oak, but like I said, it might be a basswood.


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 4, 2006)

It the bark, for a fact, was destoyed on 50% of the diameter, the tree instantaneously entered the hazard tree category; if it's a big tree.

The only way a tree can loose half the circumference of bark and not become a hazard tree, is if it's young, and the damage is limited in length, to say, 12" of damage.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 4, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> It the bark, for a fact, was destoyed on 50% of the diameter, the tree instantaneously entered the hazard tree category; if it's a big tree.
> 
> The only way a tree can loose half the circumference of bark and not become a hazard tree, is if it's young, and the damage is limited in length, to say, 12" of damage.



Eventually, yes. But if the client wants to watch the tree closely, and wait until heart rot has indeed set in (or the beetles get it) that would be OK. You could put it on a list to visit each year for a fee to assess its condition.


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## treeseer (Oct 5, 2006)

Mario, whethe ror not we are talking about half the circumference or half the diameter, I'd be more likely to agree with your neighbor Dave on this. Wnat is "instantaneous' about the tree becoming an irremediably high risk? (I don't like the "h" word)


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 5, 2006)

If half the diameter of cambium of dead is missing, postponing gets risky. It allows for people to transfer the tree to new ownership that may be ignorant of the danger.

In many of these cases, they get used to it and forget about it. Their diligence can go dormant.

Maybe yearly checks will work for a while, but in time, it takes 2 or more evaluations per year. Each year becomes more of a guessing game. And it becomes a roulette game not many years hence.

The hazard tree checklists are "signs" of hazard trees; indicating "potential" "hazard". A tree like that will always have at least one sign of "potential" hazard. So it has entered the realm of "hazard tree signs" if the symantics work better that way.

How does an aborist know when the too much decay is in a tree after half of it's cambium / diameter stopped functioning?

opcorn:


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## treeseer (Oct 5, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> So it has entered the realm of "hazard tree signs" if the symantics work better that way.


yeah that works a little better.


> How does an aborist know when the too much decay is in a tree after half of it's cambium / diameter stopped functioning?opcorn:


Tough call, and it's a fairly academic question. I agree it's time to plan for removal and replacement after half of either diameter or circumference is gone.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 5, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> If half the diameter of cambium of dead is missing, postponing gets risky. It allows for people to transfer the tree to new ownership that may be ignorant of the danger.
> 
> In many of these cases, they get used to it and forget about it. Their diligence can go dormant.
> 
> ...




I don't quite follow your questions about "signs". Signs are physical evidence that allows identification of a disease or insect agent that potentially has damaged a tree; think beetle larvae under the bark, sapwood stain, or fungal fruiting bodies (conks). OTH, symptoms develop in a living tree, and may have multiple causes; these include a wilted crown, chlorotic leaves, or crown dieback. Some clues are a little of each, such as defoliation caused by chewing insects, unless one sees the particular critter, making this a sign. 

Anyway, a lightning-struck tree would have a sign (the blown-out vertical furrow, maybe charred, which only points to lightning, baring someone lighting off a string of detonation cord), as well as symptoms over time, perhaps crown die-back due to loss of sapwood. Decay would be a new symptom; the decay organism could be identified based on signs: a virulent pathogen such as Armilaria leaves black zone lines in the wood, rhizomorphs under the bark ("shoestrings", hence the common name, shoe string fungus), and brown mushrooms at the base. See that, REMOVE IT. OTH, some heartwood decays are slow, and do not affect the live sapwood--they are saprophytes (eat dead stuff); the tree could be kept for quite a while so long as the new wood is growing vigorously. Rule of thumb: you need at least 1/3 of the cross sectional area as sound wood, but typically one would prescribe a crown thinning/reduction as an added safety measure.


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## treeseer (Oct 5, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> a virulent pathogen such as Armilaria leaves black zone lines in the wood, rhizomorphs under the bark ("shoestrings", hence the common name, shoe string fungus), and brown mushrooms at the base. See that, REMOVE IT.



1. Some species of armillaria are not virulent. Even mellea is not always virulent or inevitably fatal on a host with high vitality. Unless symptoms are major, TREAT IT.

2. Treatments are simple and straightforward--disinfect and introduce competitors to the armillaria. there was a good article on this in tci a while back. I've had 2 big white oaks lose all signs of infection after treatment. Thanks for the reminder--it's time for a checkup on them.

ps the shrooms are as close to gold as they are to brown.


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 5, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> I don't quite follow your questions about "signs". Signs are physical evidence that allows identification of a disease or insect agent that potentially has damaged a tree; think beetle larvae under the bark, sapwood stain, or fungal fruiting bodies (conks). OTH, symptoms develop in a living tree, and may have multiple causes; these include a wilted crown, chlorotic leaves, or crown dieback. Some clues are a little of each, such as defoliation caused by chewing insects, unless one sees the particular critter, making this a sign.
> 
> Anyway, a lightning-struck tree would have a sign (the blown-out vertical furrow, maybe charred, which only points to lightning, baring someone lighting off a string of detonation cord), as well as symptoms over time, perhaps crown die-back due to loss of sapwood. Decay would be a new symptom; the decay organism could be identified based on signs: a virulent pathogen such as Armilaria leaves black zone lines in the wood, rhizomorphs under the bark ("shoestrings", hence the common name, shoe string fungus), and brown mushrooms at the base. See that, REMOVE IT. OTH, some heartwood decays are slow, and do not affect the live sapwood--they are saprophytes (eat dead stuff); the tree could be kept for quite a while so long as the new wood is growing vigorously. Rule of thumb: you need at least 1/3 of the cross sectional area as sound wood, but typically one would prescribe a crown thinning/reduction as an added safety measure.




Signs - as an entire list - are not proof.

For example, "lean" is one of the ISA and arboriculture "signs" of a hazard tree.

But that's all "lean" is, is a sign. It's not a proof. There are many trees that lean, such as the edge of a grove, that can be more sturdy and sound than some straight trees.

So a "sign" is a characteristic that points to the tree, for paying closer attention to it, as to whether or not it is a real danger.

Deadwood clinging-on by a thread, would be both one of the signs of hazard trees, as well as an immediate hazard.


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## treeseer (Oct 5, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> For example, "lean" is one of the ISA and arboriculture "signs" of a hazard tree.
> .


Mario where are you getting this from?


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 5, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Mario where are you getting this from?



Now that I found the brochure / PDF file, it's the Pacific NW chapter of the ISA. I knew that someone affiliated with the ISA had it, because the Pacific NW director mentioned working on the information, a couple of years ago.

It may be that the "8 signs" list is housed within just that chapter. But I've come across the list elsewhere: aside from the website for Collier Arbor Care in the Portland, Oregon area.

It would be surprising if the ISA PNW chapter did not cross reference their color brochure to this type of publication:

https://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/A-Photographic-Guide-to-the-Evaluation-of-Hazard-Trees-in-Urban-Areas-Workbook-P24C25.aspx

The Rocky Mountain Chapter has it in this list here too:

http://www.isarmc.org/pro/Publications.htm

There are references to the hazard tree guides on websites ranging from university extension services, to arboriculture societies.


opcorn:


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 5, 2006)

treeseer said:


> 1. Some species of armillaria are not virulent. Even mellea is not always virulent or inevitably fatal on a host with high vitality. Unless symptoms are major, TREAT IT.
> 
> 2. Treatments are simple and straightforward--disinfect and introduce competitors to the armillaria. there was a good article on this in tci a while back. I've had 2 big white oaks lose all signs of infection after treatment. Thanks for the reminder--it's time for a checkup on them.
> 
> ps the shrooms are as close to gold as they are to brown.




I didn't realize that treatments were out there for _Armillaria_. I've mostly observed its impact on forest trees after they fail; it really does a job "mushifying" prop roots and tree butts. Although tere is some argument among mycologists over what species is what, in the northwest the one that commonly causes tree failure is _A. ostoyae_ Is the treatment introduction of mycorrhizal species that compete with _Armillaria_?


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## treeseer (Oct 6, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> I didn't realize that treatments were out there for _Armillaria_. Is the treatment introduction of mycorrhizal species that compete with _Armillaria_?


yes plus the sanitation and stuff described in the nov 2003 tci article by harold mitchell in CA. (can't access archives that old--?)


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 6, 2006)

treeseer said:


> yes plus the sanitation and stuff described in the nov 2003 tci article by harold mitchell in CA. (can't access archives that old--?)




I'll try to find it. I'm in orchard country; if _Armillaria_ is discovered in apple or pear, the treatment is to pull the tree, surrounding trees (not sure how far out, probably at least an acre), burn them, cover the ground with plastic and fumigate (not sure if methyl bromide is still alowed for this, I think it's being phased out). Not something you could do for a yard tree!


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## bushman (Oct 8, 2006)

I had a lightning hit my neighbors pine tree friday night in the noreaster storm,the tree is a rightbeside my bedroom,what a alarm clock at 5.ooam .what is interesting is the way the lighting traveled around the tree.it's double trunk 90plus lob.pine and cabled top.which we installed and pruned because it's to close btween our houses,and they won't remove it.but thats another story.the lightning traveled around the top of the tree ,down one side followed the cable down the trunk to there house and blew a hole in the roof next to the plumbing vent which ligtning love's copper.my neb said the cable attracted the lightning .what your opinion?


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## treeseer (Oct 8, 2006)

bushman Please Post Pictures and if possible measurements; I will pay for them if need be.

re cable attracting, that sounds like what he sees eh?


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 8, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Now that I found the brochure / PDF file, it's the Pacific NW chapter of the ISA. I knew that someone affiliated with the ISA had it, because the Pacific NW director mentioned working on the information, a couple of years ago.
> 
> It may be that the "8 signs" list is housed within just that chapter. But I've come across the list elsewhere: aside from the website for Collier Arbor Care in the Portland, Oregon area.
> 
> ...




I'm sure these publications are good. One can get too hung up on terminology. I believe that I picked up the signs vs. symptoms terminology from what is considered "the bible" of pest ID: 

Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs, Johnson and Lyon, 1991, Cornell Univ. Press, 560 p. There is also a companion volume on dieases.

They define the difference this way (p. 11):

"A _symptom_ is an injury by, or a plant response to, a pest agent. A _sign_ is the pest organism itself, its skeleton, or a product produced by the pest; a sign is helpful in identifying the cause oif a symtom".

Just baught two new books that should be good:

Preliminary Species Profiles for Tree Failure Assessment, Dunster & Associates Environmental Consultants Limited, 2003, BC, 42p.

Evaluation of Hazard Trees in Urban Areas, Matheny and Clark, 1994, ISA, 85 p.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 12, 2015)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Signs - as an entire list - are not proof.
> 
> For example, "lean" is one of the ISA and arboriculture "signs" of a hazard tree.
> 
> ...


So you mean like this lol cheers:


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## ropensaddle (Jun 12, 2015)

As far as trees living through lightning strikes, My experience the worst effected are where the current travels and kills roots. The most accurate thing we can say is; it is definitely a stress factor which can lead to mortality. Careful monitoring if near structures or pathways would be prudent. I could not put out a blanket statement such as immediate removal required ect as strikes can be severe or minimal.


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## defensiblespace (Jun 20, 2015)

I think a lot of it depends on the species of tree and the intensity of the strike. Around here the white firs usually get blown to pieces, but the jeffrey pines just lose some bark. I think this is partly due to the fact that the firs retain more moisture. I have removed several lightning struck trees, including this one a few days ago.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 21, 2015)

defensiblespace said:


> I think a lot of it depends on the species of tree and the intensity of the strike. Around here the white firs usually get blown to pieces, but the jeffrey pines just lose some bark. I think this is partly due to the fact that the firs retain more moisture. I have removed several lightning struck trees, including this one a few days ago.View attachment 431627


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## Seedling345 (Jun 21, 2015)

lawnmaniac883 said:


> Ok so this happened about 1 month ago I noticed a pine tree on a property I maintain had been struck by lightning. Direct strike, blew bark off one side of the tree and burned the grass around it. Here one month later the tree doesnt appear quite as deep green as the others around it but still doesnt show any serious signs of dying. A few burned branched and a sh!tload of sap comming down to the truck of it. Anyway, I am supposed to fell this thing tommorrow and am not sure if it is definately dead? I imagine it couldnt possibly survive a direct strike but?? Opinions? Appreciate the input.


I don't know any of the technical stuff about it but for what my .2 cents is worth my grandmas red pine was hit when I was little the top half died but it grew two new top leads a couple years later but like I said I'm a noob that don't know **** yet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## defensiblespace (Jul 11, 2015)

A couple more lightning strikes in our area from a storm 2 days ago.


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