# Felling a leaning tree.



## thomas72 (May 30, 2008)

I have searched the forum but have not really found what I have been looking for. I need to fell a 22" dead pine which died about three months ago that has a natural lean. I have felled live pine trees, but I am not sure about a dead tree. I have a feeling that the hinge will break sooner than that of a green tree. I am also not to sure about how to make the cuts to drop it 35 degrees from the lean. I have found this online guide, but not to sure about it. 

http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf


There is a description under Additional Techniques.


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## gink595 (May 30, 2008)

I cut the heavy leaners by starting with your normal felling notch and then instead of cutting form the back of the tree to the notch to form the hinge I bore in the center of the trunk right where you want your hinge and than cut to the back of the tree. That way the holding wood is gone and goes boom without a barber chair.

As for the swinging it you can cut more of the hinge on one side than the other that way it rotates due to the more holding wood on that side than the other. Or look up the swing or step dutchman cuts.


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## TDunk (May 30, 2008)

Without looking at it it's hard to say. Doing a bore cut is the best way to do leaner. But trying to get it to go a diff. direction than the lean is difficult to say without pics. If it were me, climb it, put a rope in it and pull-er on over. I've had good luck hingeing most pine species except for white pine. At least for me they have a tendensy to break the hinge when you try to "swing" them. Dead trees are a whole nuther ball game.


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## ropensaddle (May 30, 2008)

I anchor my winch on it to pull just a little lean off not much just enough to
make it swing and notch and cut. I have used this same approach with
large rope as long as it won't come into contact with other trees or objects!
It will swing it if done right and if the hinge gets loose the rope controls it. Anchor points must be considered in this approach
to limit load somewhat!


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## gink595 (May 30, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I anchor my winch on it to pull just a little lean off not much just enough to
> make it swing and notch and cut. I have used this same approach with
> large rope as long as it won't come into contact with other trees or objects!
> It will swing it if done right and if the hinge gets loose the rope controls it. Anchor points must be considered in this approach
> to limit load somewhat!



You guys and your winchs and gin poles!!! must be nice. Next you're going to use that bucket truck!! LOL


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## ropensaddle (May 30, 2008)

gink595 said:


> You guys and your winchs and gin poles!!! must be nice. Next you're going to use that bucket truck!! LOL



No if I had my way it would be crane only


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## guitarborist (May 30, 2008)

If you can get a rope in the tree I would do that in combination with wedges. Three months is not too long for a tree to be standing dead so the wood ( if the tree is solid not hollow or been rotting for years) should not be too brittle. I would put the face cut directed toward the spot where you want to fall it. Cut in with the back cut leaving a large amount of hinge (wood) on the opposite side of the lean, 8 inches or so. Get the amount of wood you want on the lean side and stop cutting. Put a wedge into the cut on the leaning side, pound the wedge tight. go to the opposite side of the lean and slowly cut the hinge wood down. Take a small amount of wood at a time, stop, pound the wedge on the other side some more, cut more, pound..... Stay out from under the leaning side as much as possible. The idea is to slowly lift the tree up and at the same time guide over in the direction you want. Keep in mind it will not lift the tree up dramatically only slightly. I would also put a wedge directly behind the face cut too. The wedge on the lean side will do most of the hard work while the wedge on the back will guide the tree over. A rope is great for this situation. You can leave a larger amount of wood in the hinge and be in a safe place when the tree falls and have a better guarantee of getting the tree where you want. If you have a 4-way pulley system you have even better odds. Place the rope 2/3 or higher in the tree as long as the tie in point has the strength to withstand the pull. Before you do any of this make sure the trunk and roots are sound. If the tree is hollow or rotten then falling it in any direction other than the lean can be dangerous. I would not try to swing the tree with a Dutchman or any other methods on a dead tree you need live wood for that and even then an internal crack can cause the tree to fail and slit apart. Watch out for falling debris too, the dead limbs will fly when the tree falls so LOOK UP a lot from start to finish and have a very good escape route.


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## ropensaddle (May 30, 2008)

In truth the leaving one side of the hinge thick will cause problems
at some point in your career. I would snub it off so as you cut the rope
swings it and leave hinge even or same thickness especially on dead trees.
I have done the thick thin method but really it is better to have a better
plan than that. The rope snubbed from behind the lean and a little to 
the side of planned fall will automatically pull it as tree starts to fall.
Care must be put into this senerio to make sure the position is ideal to
swing the trunk and rope cable is strong enough for the task.


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## guitarborist (May 30, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> In truth the leaving one side of the hinge thick will cause problems
> at some point in your career. I would snub it off so as you cut the rope
> swings it and leave hinge even or same thickness especially on dead trees.
> I have done the thick thin method but really it is better to have a better
> ...



With the method I described the holding wood will be the same or nearly the same thickness by the time the tree is ready to be pulled or is fallen with wedges alone. The extra holding wood on the upper side of the lean keeps the hinge from breaking perpendicular to the direction of the face cut. As the holding wood is cut and the wedge is pounded further into the cut the wedge takes the weight of the tree and the holding wood on the upper side of the lean will have less tension and be able to function as a hinge better. Maybe I was not clear in what I was saying. I was not trying to use extra wood on one side to swing the tree at all.


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## ropensaddle (May 30, 2008)

I will use wedges for felling some but not near property,wires etc. 
A better plan of action that includes a large winch or equivalent
is incorporated in these cases. I have used wedges many time
and are valuable but never rely on them where liability is implied
or safety an issue. My favorite use for a plastic wedge is getting
a stuck bar out bucking a log!


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## guitarborist (May 30, 2008)

I think mechanical advantage should be used whenever possible which is why I suggested a rope and a 4 way, wenches are great too. If I am removing a tree with property and electrical near by I do not chance anything. However, if I am in the woods and I am dropping a stand of trees I cannot set a rope in every one that leans or has some type of issue. If I am using mechanical advantage I always back it up with wedges. Wedges are a very inexpensive tool that add safety and accuracy when falling trees.


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## ropensaddle (May 30, 2008)

Yes under those circumstances a time saver indeed and great tool


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## thomas72 (May 30, 2008)

Thanks for the advice, and I will ponder this some more. I have a half inch cable I can tie to the tree to help guide it, and I am weary of falling limbs as well. I will post some pictures of the tree and how it is leaning.


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## Nailsbeats (May 30, 2008)

Pictures would be nice.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here and may help in your situation is taking the weight off the leaning side by limbing the tree on that side. This will put the balance significantly in your favor and really take the torque off the questionable hinge wood.

Put a line in the tree as mentioned to pull with. If the hinge wood is bad I would rather pull than wedge. Use the wedge to keep the kerf open, but not to force the tree over, use the rope for that. Pounding the wedge in unstable wood can crack it and cause the tree to go with the weight instead of the direction of the intended fall. You would need a piece of equipment or mechanical advantage to pull with in this case since you will leave a bigger than average hinge for safety. I like what Rope said about pulling a little off the lean, this will also take preasure off heavy hinge side. 

Pay special attention to where you put your rope in the tree. With dead wood you will want to be on a good size piece like 10" or so, also look for cracks and obvious weak spots that could fail while you pull. This is where experience really comes in, you need to develop and eye for this sorta stuff. It's a give and take, higher= more leverage slower pull, lower= more strength, faster pull.

As a safety you can add a second line that pulls opposite the lean. Tie it to a strong fixed object on the ground (like another tree) just in case the hinge breaks.

These are just options and there are many more. Without pics nobody's can tell you exactly what to do. The fact that you are asking concerns me as to your ability to do all of the above, not knocking you, just make sure you take a good hard look at your situation and maybe get some help. Good luck to ya.


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## clearance (May 30, 2008)

What has not been discussed so far is the speed at which a tree with suspect holding wood should be pulled over with.

Winches do not have speed, niether do pulley/hand systems. The only things that make speed possible are machines that move. And they have to have some wieght. Pulling trees over directly backwards agianst thier lean can be done with a winch, Tirfor, whatever. A suspect tree leaning two ways, as has been descibed here needs the element of speed, along with the other good things, proper cuts, stout rope or cable, adequate tailholds, etc.

Something to think about, and lets not get on the trucks are bad rants, big trucks with the right setup can't be beat.


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## Nailsbeats (May 30, 2008)

Right on Clearance, I just pulled a dead one over yesterday tied to the back of the dumptruck with a manual tranny. She had the speed for sure, just don't stall it. lol.


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## jonseredman0244 (May 30, 2008)

*ok here it is*

dead trees just suck period thats why they are called widow makers best thing for u to do is to get a long heavy rope that wont break put the rope up in the tree high as possible 2/3 is good hook onto it with a 4x4 truck face cut it clean your face cut good start your back cut get him to snug the rope when ur 1/3 into it get him to start pullin slow but keep it moving and dont stop cuttin give your saw all shes got and it should work out thats the way i did a pine right by aare house and if u cant pull it make a good face cut where its going to miss whatever you want it to miss start ur back cut when ur in where ur saw aint going to hit your wedge. wedge it cut in depends on the size of the tree leave about 2 inches of hinge wedge it pound it in go to the sides and wegde it then you should be in good shape but i would have to see the tree to tell you.. if its leaning good only way either pull it or get the climbin gear top it all the way down goodluck


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## ClimbinArbor (May 30, 2008)

i personally like climbing removals if time allows. they are alot of fun and i am extremely good at them. i will normally limb it down to a spar, cut down what logs might hit property, then put a running bowline on top. slide down and have the groundies pull. with the men pulling(or machine sometimes) a normal notch and backcut work for even the deadest of trees.


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## Fireaxman (May 31, 2008)

guitarborist said:


> ... Three months is not too long for a tree to be standing dead so the wood ( if the tree is solid not hollow or been rotting for years) should not be too brittle. ...
> ... Before you do any of this make sure the trunk and roots are sound. If the tree is hollow or rotten then falling it in any direction other than the lean can be dangerous. I would not try to swing the tree with a Dutchman or any other methods on a dead tree you need live wood for that and even then an internal crack can cause the tree to fail and slit apart. Watch out for falling debris too, the dead limbs will fly when the tree falls so LOOK UP a lot from start to finish and have a very good escape route.



This is really good advice from guitarborist, please do not overlook it. One of the big bummers about working on a dead tree is that something was wrong with the tree or it would not have died. Sometimes there is little evidence on the outside of major problems on the inside. Without good wood on the inside all the good advice on hinges becomes null and void. Without solid roots a good pull can get you more than you bargained for. 

These "Cell Phone" picts are pretty low resolution, but this Loblolly (005 and 010) had no apparent defects on the outside. If someone had asked me to take it down I probably would have fired up on it without hesitation, expecting a good hinge. But the heart was almost completely rotted out of it. A good blow from a thunderstorm took it down. 006 is an example of a pulled root on a neighboring tree. Note the seperation (black crack between root and ground) on the right side of the root.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 1, 2008)

Fireaxman said:


> This is really good advice from guitarborist, please do not overlook it. One of the big bummers about working on a dead tree is that something was wrong with the tree or it would not have died. Sometimes there is little evidence on the outside of major problems on the inside. Without good wood on the inside all the good advice on hinges becomes null and void. Without solid roots a good pull can get you more than you bargained for.
> 
> These "Cell Phone" picts are pretty low resolution, but this Loblolly (005 and 010) had no apparent defects on the outside. If someone had asked me to take it down I probably would have fired up on it without hesitation, expecting a good hinge. But the heart was almost completely rotted out of it. A good blow from a thunderstorm took it down. 006 is an example of a pulled root on a neighboring tree. Note the seperation (black crack between root and ground) on the right side of the root.


Well that said and yes careful inspection is a must, I still want my winch
on it. Just because it has a defect makes me want it more. Adequate pull
is a must and if a defect is present still has to be pulled to drop. I don't
get this mentality and if the defect is bad enough I aint climbing the dern
tree. I have felled many thousands of trees hollow,dead,big,huge and little
with a winch! I never have had the problems with chair because I do the
initial pull and kill it in gear the winch will then pull as soon as the truck is started back up! With the truck killed and starting my back cut I can tell
if more needs applied by watching the kerf and if it does not start widening
a little when two inches is left on the hinge, I kill the saw explain exactly 
what I want done and safely bring it down. Oh and chair is not
too dangerous if you are quite some distance away, as some hollows after the initial pull mentioned and back cut at two inch
I have the wife bump a little and if it moves easy signal to yard it,
she steps on gas and wolla, it comes the way its pulled.


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## bluebuddhist (Jun 1, 2008)

You could also use a throw line if there are any branches left on the dead standing... Aim high on the side opposite that which you want to to fell toward, run a "fishing line" type system down to the base of the tree and tie it off. Then you can put a man or machine on the loose end. This will ensure that the tree doesn't tip the wrong way and still gives you the advantage of having a "directional anchor" on the loose end of the rope. Of course, notch and cut accordingly... A throw line allows you to get a rope high into the tree without climbing it, which is nice if the tree is dead.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 1, 2008)

Whats nice is when you go out to a job that the tree is dead and snapped and barely lodged toward the house! I have had several like this. I sometime hook my 20000 snatch block up into a good spot then set the winch line in sound wood near the top and tighten up a little. I then start cutting from the butt until it stands and then a block at a time and lower making sure it stays butt heavy.
It has amazed a few homeowners to watch!


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## ropensaddle (Jun 1, 2008)

bluebuddhist said:


> You could also use a throw line if there are any branches left on the dead standing... Aim high on the side opposite that which you want to to fell toward, run a "fishing line" type system down to the base of the tree and tie it off. Then you can put a man or machine on the loose end. This will ensure that the tree doesn't tip the wrong way and still gives you the advantage of having a "directional anchor" on the loose end of the rope. Of course, notch and cut accordingly... A throw line allows you to get a rope high into the tree without climbing it, which is nice if the tree is dead.



Ehh climbing my winch is attached to a 23000lb bucket truck mang!:monkey:


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2008)

What kind of bucket truck weighs that much? What do you have, a tandem axle truck with front wheel drive?


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## gink595 (Jun 1, 2008)

Yeah I think it is, I know it's a Big Mack!


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## guitarborist (Jun 2, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> What kind of bucket truck weighs that much? What do you have, a tandem axle truck with front wheel drive?



We have a 60' Hi-Ranger on a single axle F750 chasis, it weighs 24,000 empty and has a gvw of 36,000. The weight adds up fast on those trucks.


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## pdqdl (Jun 4, 2008)

My old F-700 had a hi-ranger 55' bucket, and it only weighed about 18K. 

My Mack trash truck (single axle) with 20' dumping trash compactor bed, big diesel engine and automatic transmission, air brakes, 14,000lb front axle with oversized tires only weighs 24,500. 

My c-6000 crane/chipper truck (single axle) with 12,000 lb capacity IMT crane, extra man-cab, and 13' dump bed with removable metal roof only weighs 22,000.

I guess I just haven't seen enough trucks yet.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 4, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> What kind of bucket truck weighs that much? What do you have, a tandem axle truck with front wheel drive?



No It is 2wd f800 diesel 33000 gvw large pto winch with bumper
no headache rack but has bin body. I weighed it loaded with all my
gear! It probably weighs 21000 empty if that helps.


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## bluebuddhist (Jun 5, 2008)

You guys and your heavy equipment... Sure, it's nice to have a 20,000 lb. anchor at times, but what if there's a fence, or garage, or a garden... Does your 10 ton truck grow wings and fly over them? Does it put on ballerina slippers and dance around the garden? I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have a boom truck, but what do you do in tight quarters?... Climbing is forever. Like a diamond.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2008)

bluebuddhist said:


> You guys and your heavy equipment... Sure, it's nice to have a 20,000 lb. anchor at times, but what if there's a fence, or garage, or a garden... Does your 10 ton truck grow wings and fly over them? Does it put on ballerina slippers and dance around the garden? I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have a boom truck, but what do you do in tight quarters?... Climbing is forever. Like a diamond.



Good question I will just say this, there are the few that I don't get to yes. 1 of 10 that I can't get in and I charge what its worth when I can't. I do dance a truck well though and with plywood or mats you would be extremely surprised at my ability to put that truck into tight quarters! I have many times had one inch each side and made out fine so consider it dueling truckos :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 5, 2008)

hey rope if you got one inch of clearance on both sides how do you get out of the truck lmao???? is that when the ol lady gets to run the bigger stuff???


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2008)

gink595 said:


> Yeah I think it is, I know it's a Big Mack!



Nah that is the grapple it weighs 29500 empty, so I can only legally
haul seven tons with the tandems. I want to get a pusher axle some day,
because I know I have run overloaded a time or two  I can usually
fit a forty inch dbh on in one load brush wood and all, the truck will handle
it fine but tagged 44000 is all they allow for tandems. Question; what would
a 40 dbh oak weigh the whole thing brush wood etc?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> hey rope if you got one inch of clearance on both sides how do you get out of the truck lmao???? is that when the ol lady gets to run the bigger stuff???



I have had to crawl out the windows before, dukes of hazard style!
My point was depending on experiance level of an operator many times
you can get in where other people believe it impossible. My mack is
a little harder sometimes but I love the five reverse gears it has.
Lowest reverse gear I can walk twice as fast it creeps very slow
allows you time to check mirrors and get aligned. If ya don't want tfa
just kick it in fifth reverse but better have some room and talent cause
you will be booking!


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 5, 2008)

oh im just givin ya [email protected] lol. ive backed some trailers and dumps into some nasty stuff before. had a gmc 5500 with a chipper top. i manuevered that little bugger thru quite a few backyards. the cab over engines are extremely nice to have.

did you hear that Mack started doing away with the bulldog hood ornament? apparently two @$$holes staring at each other all day makes for cracnky truck drivers lol


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2008)

ClimbinArbor said:


> oh im just givin ya [email protected] lol. ive backed some trailers and dumps into some nasty stuff before. had a gmc 5500 with a chipper top. i manuevered that little bugger thru quite a few backyards. the cab over engines are extremely nice to have.
> 
> did you hear that Mack started doing away with the bulldog hood ornament? apparently two @$$holes staring at each other all day makes for cracnky truck drivers lol



Like my dawg is hungry fer some action R models are cool mad max! No one wants to play chicken


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## Bermie (Jun 7, 2008)

bluebuddhist said:


> You could also use a throw line if there are any branches left on the dead standing... Aim high on the side opposite that which you want to to fell toward, run a "fishing line" type system down to the base of the tree and tie it off. Then you can put a man or machine on the loose end. This will ensure that the tree doesn't tip the wrong way and still gives you the advantage of having a "directional anchor" on the loose end of the rope. Of course, notch and cut accordingly... A throw line allows you to get a rope high into the tree without climbing it, which is nice if the tree is dead.



I'm with you on that!

I did a leaner just yesterday...in a nature reserve, culling invasives.
About a 45-50' casuarina leaning back quite a bit towards all the native plantings, only clear spot was directly opposite the lean and downhill.
Got a throwline up about 2/3 height, not a very big branch it went over, so I lead the rope down the back side and tied it off just above where I was going to cut it. This helps distribute the pulling load somewhat, so all the force is not concentrated in one spot.

Set up a 3:1 pull with pulleys and friction hitches (Z rig) anchored into the baygrapes, the guys took up slack off to one side.
Split level back cut...half a back cut at horizontal, bang in a high lift wedge, go round the other side, (carefully cause there was a big hanger in it too) finish the other half of the backcut angled and slightly below, set the hinge, step away, the guys pulled it over no problem.


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