# Road Building...Plan in the Head



## slowp (Nov 21, 2008)

This road has been under construction for 3 weeks now. The "plan" was a line on a map and a hard to find flag line on the ground...literally on the ground in a few places. I walked it with the road builder and he pointed and I shot the trees to cut for right of way with my paint gun. We've worked together several times now. He walks it, and then plans it in his head. In the old days, the road would be designed by an engineer and given a number. Nowdays, the roads are built, hauled on, and then put back, or put back as much as it can be. This is at the saddle on the flat part. We walked on 90% slopes to get to here, and he has that in so a four wheel drive can get in. I was able to drive to here after getting a good run at some of the muddy parts











Next week, or depending on whether the rent is by the day or hours used, maybe the next, he plans to try out some kind of equipment that will shatter rock. It should be cheaper than blasting. That will allow construction of landings and the road where he found rock to be a problem and then the excess rock will be used to rock the road. The road has a steep, 18% favorable slope, and a 14% adverse slope. Sounds like they plan to try to log it this winter. It is all yarder ground. We'll have lots of fun and frolic and inefficient speech patterns!

I think the bees are dead now.  This is where I got stung a couple weeks ago.


----------



## forestryworks (Nov 21, 2008)

interesting, thanks for sharing

what is the size of the timber along the road?


----------



## RPM (Nov 21, 2008)

14% adverse use to be a big deal but with the newer tridem drive triaxle trucks and bigger engines not so much now. Rock that road in well and should be no biggy....leave it a little soft - different story.

Cut and fill with the cat....I like it!


----------



## slowp (Nov 22, 2008)

RPM said:


> 14% adverse use to be a big deal but with the newer tridem drive triaxle trucks and bigger engines not so much now. Rock that road in well and should be no biggy....leave it a little soft - different story.
> 
> *Cut and fill with the cat*....I like it!



Not the whole road!!! The road before this goes across a steep slope so it is full bench excavator cut. I'll try and get pictures of the rock thingy if it gets going. 

The timber is second growth, probably averages 14 inches DBH. It does have some nice timber in it in places. It is a purchaser mark, description by diameter thinning (of course). This is the last, and steepest unit on the sale. Some excellent young timber, too big for the processor, came out of the lower skidder units. It also came out before the market crashed. I'm not sure whether they'll try to use a yoder or get a regular yarder for this unit.


----------



## hazard (Nov 22, 2008)

Looks like fun or work

I miss being on roadway projects that were going thru woods. I got many logs this way.

I worked on the design of highway project in SW Wisconsin where we cut 140' thru rock.


----------



## Bushler (Nov 22, 2008)

Please explain the diff between 'favorable' and 'adverse' slope?

Anxious to see the rock breaker. The local rock pit pays $3/yd. now to have their pit drilled and shot. That makes rock pretty expensive when you add the screening cost, load and hauling.

I put a weld on pocket on the side of the heel rack on my shovel and used a ripper shank to break out rock. Worked pretty good on shale and conglomerate, but I doubt it would work on real hard rock.


----------



## WidowMaker (Nov 22, 2008)

basically, up and down


----------



## slowp (Nov 22, 2008)

Favorable grade is when the log trucks are going downhill loaded. With logs on that is. Adverse is when a loaded log truck has to climb to get off the landing. This is up an adverse slope.





Makes them cranky.





And then I have to listen to the whining.


----------



## Gologit (Nov 22, 2008)

It's not really adverse until you have one Cat pushing and one Cat pulling. Getting a little push from the shovel just helps save on clutches and drive-lines.  I'd much rather give a guy a nudge with the shovel than spend an hour with the landing plugged while we're waiting for him to fix whatever he broke...or at least whatever time it takes to drag him up to a wide spot so we can get going again.

You want to make sure the Catskinners are in agreement about which gear to pull and push in though...saves a lot of busted bull lines, bent reaches, and original language (as Slowp calls it).


----------



## Bushler (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation. I've been misusing the term 'adverse' for as long as I can remember.


----------



## slowp (Nov 23, 2008)

Gologit said:


> It's not really adverse until you have one Cat pushing and one Cat pulling. Getting a little push from the shovel just helps save on clutches and drive-lines.  I'd much rather give a guy a nudge with the shovel than spend an hour with the landing plugged while we're waiting for him to fix whatever he broke...or at least whatever time it takes to drag him up to a wide spot so we can get going again.
> 
> You want to make sure the Catskinners are in agreement about which gear to pull and push in though...saves a lot of busted bull lines, bent reaches, and original language (as Slowp calls it).




That used to happen here. We called it a push me pull me. There were also some roads where the switchbacks were too sharp so they had extension kind of roads at the switchback. The truck went up forwards, then backwards then forwards...
Lots of mirror practice.


----------



## windthrown (Nov 23, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I've been misusing the term 'adverse' for as long as I can remember.



So, that would make my late father (ex-Navy, he swore like a pistol) an "original adverse" language type?


----------



## windthrown (Nov 23, 2008)

Why all the effort to demo the roads there after using? Here when a cut is done, most roads are covered in baby alders in 3 years, and completely grown over in about 10 years. Most roads here are on commercial land, and they grade and culvert them expecting to use them again at some future time with far less effort to clear and grade. They also burm, gate or bolder them to keep people from using them.


----------



## slowp (Nov 23, 2008)

windthrown said:


> Why all the effort to demo the roads there after using? Here when a cut is done, most roads are covered in baby alders in 3 years, and completely grown over in about 10 years. Most roads here are on commercial land, and they grade and culvert them expecting to use them again at some future time with far less effort to clear and grade. They also burm, gate or bolder them to keep people from using them.



If it were up to me, that would be fine. But there are highly educated people who know better. So, this road will have to be recontoured as much as possible. And that isn't much on a steep hillside. My mom always said,"Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do."

When I first started out, we put in roads with the idea that they'd be reused when the next crop of trees was ready. We rocked the heck out of the roads and landings. The ologists seem to know better so I fear they plan to never enter again, or use helicopter for everything. They are in charge now. Kind of scary, that.


----------



## windthrown (Nov 23, 2008)

Oy vey. Shaking head.  

Its like the Mel Brooks quote in the movie Spaceballs: 

_":censored: UCK! Even in the future nothing works!" _


----------



## Bushler (Nov 23, 2008)

Its hard to picture it getting any better when the new admin and congress take over.


----------



## Gologit (Nov 23, 2008)

slowp said:


> The ologists seem to know better so I fear they plan to never enter again, or use helicopter for everything. They are in charge now. Kind of scary, that.



I think you're right. I wish you weren't.


----------



## ak4195 (Nov 24, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Its hard to picture it getting any better when the new admin and congress take over.



I was thinking its hard to think of it only getting worse thanks to this current admin and congress controlling 6 of the last 8 yrs completely.
Get ready for BIG dirt works projects,with a little luck perhaps the Forest service will snag an uptick for there own forest road projects.
Should be some decent steel out there in the auctions,I know there has been up here,course theres a fair amount of junk too.

ak


----------



## Bushler (Nov 24, 2008)

I suspect the public works and infrastructure projects Brocko Bummer has in mind will center around the Acorn cities. The rural areas will be sacrificed for the GreenPeople.

I serioulsly doubt we'll see any easing up restrictions on Fed timber. But, there's a chance that it will increase demand for private timber...and I'd be all over that.


----------



## forestryworks (Nov 24, 2008)

Bushler said:


> But, there's a chance that it will increase demand for private timber...and I'd be all over that.



amen!


----------



## ak4195 (Nov 24, 2008)

Bushler said:


> I suspect the public works and infrastructure projects Brocko Bummer has in mind will center around the Acorn cities. The rural areas will be sacrificed for the GreenPeople.
> 
> I serioulsly doubt we'll see any easing up restrictions on Fed timber. But, there's a chance that it will increase demand for private timber...and I'd be all over that.



NOt sure what Acorn means,but if you mean larger metro centers getting the lions share,your probably right.I always thought of oregon as the unwanted stepchild of the west coast.
Sandwiched in between 2 economic powerhouses,that is if your into that sort of thing.Not sure why anybody would want to live in a place like puget sound area or most places in urban cali.
The charm of either place was lost decades ago,maybe a generation or 2.
My ex's bro-inlaw is partners/ good friends with Peter De fazio,politic leanings aside(believe me I heard earfulls!),I thought Peter was fairly decent at bringing $'s home to willamete valley considering he was in the minority for yrs.
Cant remember which party Wyden belongs too or how effective he was,but if I remember right he was the protoje(sp?) of them 2 old OR powerhouse senators(cant remember there names,but I do remember one of them had a penchant for feeling fine curves).With the replacement of the goombah gordon smith,id say oregon will get its modest share of the pie.
As far as Forest service regs go,just who's gonna buy that timber and make $'s on it?Seems like B.C always got plenty to dump on the markets and plenty of govt. subsidies.
Although Northern BC is hurting or so it seemed to me when I drove through there in august or so.Gonna be years,maybe decades(if ever) before the gas pipeline gets built.
Timber seems very much like the salmon industry,plenty to go around,and way to much harvesting capacity.Sockeye fisherman up here are finally getting well over $1/lb now,so seems to have bottomed.
Course back in the 80's they were getting $2,so how good are things?
Better but not great,like a good friend of mine who's name was "Cowboy"(who went down bout 2 winters ago in a fierce storm off Sanak island in october)
" I think Ill just keep fishing till I go broke"
Like some other semi famous dead person said
"Chance favors the prepared."
ak4195


----------



## PB (Nov 24, 2008)

slowp said:


> The ologists seem to know better so I fear they plan to never enter again, or use helicopter for everything. They are in charge now.



The way it should be! Hey Bob, I could be your boss and tell you how to log. hahahahahaha!!!!!


----------



## RPM (Nov 24, 2008)

slowp said:


> Not the whole road!!! The road before this goes across a steep slope so it is full bench excavator cut. I'll try and get pictures of the rock thingy if it gets going.



I know...just kidding. I know you look after State Forest and not private land areas. We do the same thing here....grub hoe to strip and a cat to push flatter slopes. Excavator to build on steeper slopes - partial and full bench endhaul type construction.

We have two classification of road deactivation around here - temporary / seasonal and semi-permananet. Temporary is basically drainage control - waterbaring, cross ditching - the road may not be used for a 6 months to a couple of years but there is still wood planned to come out. Semi-permanent deactivation may see some culverts pulled, more cross ditching / waterbars. We may pulll some bridge (but leave the sills in place) to use some where else , basically no harvesting planned for 5 - 15years out and where there may be some risk to leaving structures in place. Lots of our roads are remote 3-4 hours from town and up some drainage that only loggers and hunters ever see. If s*ht happens with roads around here, its almost always drainage related (plugged culvert and redirected water) and almost always happens in the spring as the snow is coming off - usually a rain on snow event in May. And unless someone is driving them everyday (we have approx.1,000 miles of road under permit) you're going miss that one culvert that is going to ruin your week. 

The only real permanent road deactivation (full fillslope pullback ,slope recontouring or ripping) we do is related to terrain stability issues. Our higher risk areas are assessed by a Prof. Geotech Eng. and we more or less are legislated to abide by their recommendations. I am also professionally responsible to abide by their recommendations as well. There is always discussion as to the "how to" (costs obviously) and to what extent but the end result is usually dictated by their reports. And is certainly not every road - the ologists do not dictate how we do business here. Its too bad whichever of your previous administrations let it get to that point. The greenies had their say here in BC a while ago and definitely some good came of it. Not sure what "subsidies" we are getting from gov't right now (won't dispute that there wasn't something in the past) as, like other timber producing areas (neighbors north and south), we are shut down like the rest (and for the same reasons)!


----------



## gavin (Nov 25, 2008)

RPM, where abouts do you usually work? i think i remember reading a post of yours somewhere that you've worked around renfrew and the san juan?


----------



## Gologit (Nov 25, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> The way it should be! Hey Bob, I could be your boss and tell you how to log. hahahahahaha!!!!!



LOL....You're too late, everybody already tells me how to log. I usually just ignore most of them but you're always welcome to try.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 27, 2008)

18% favorable, yikes! The old time log truckers might laugh but when I was pulling super B's of diesel in the mines I had ALOT of respect when descending 13 to 14% favorable. It must seem as the dash is going to pass your knees when you roll over that (18%) and start down. Can't remember what I typically had to climb but am pretty sure it wasn't 14%. And the roads seemed to be about 100' wide, not 10. Impressive hauling in some nice country.


----------



## Jacob J. (Nov 27, 2008)

Bushler said:


> But, there's a chance that it will increase demand for private timber...and I'd be all over that.



That's exactly what happened when Clinton was in office as you well know, in his administration's efforts to make forestry and conservation "more science driven."

Obama has similar plans...we'll be logging the small wood.


----------



## slowp (Nov 27, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> 18% favorable, yikes! The old time log truckers might laugh but when I was pulling super B's of diesel in the mines I had ALOT of respect when descending 13 to 14% favorable. It must seem as the dash is going to pass your knees when you roll over that (18%) and start down. Can't remember what I typically had to climb but am pretty sure it wasn't 14%. And the roads seemed to be about 100' wide, not 10. Impressive hauling in some nice country.



I have trouble seeing going up it in my Chevy with the Vortec plastic bumps in the hood. I drive it by braille and found a hole in the road on Tuesday. The road builder laughed (I didn't get stuck) and said he didn't have the booby traps removed yet. He didn't have the rock excavator up there yet and I had to leave early and help some people who wrecked 5 miles away...no injuries.

Rumor is that they'll try to log it this winter if we don't have much snow. I'm going to get that CB installed! Chains too. Going up is not bad but coming down on icy crud is scary for me. :jawdrop:


----------



## RPM (Nov 27, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> 18% favorable, yikes! The old time log truckers might laugh but when I was pulling super B's of diesel in the mines I had ALOT of respect when descending 13 to 14% favorable. It must seem as the dash is going to pass your knees when you roll over that (18%) and start down. Can't remember what I typically had to climb but am pretty sure it wasn't 14%. And the roads seemed to be about 100' wide, not 10. Impressive hauling in some nice country.



There are lots of West coast roads (BC) that have been built to 22% - 26% Fav......running surface 4 - 6m wide (15-20')...a few in the interior as well. Short sections usually (less than 1/4 mile) but I have seen sustained pitches up to 1 mile long. All off highway trucks, water cooled brakes and 120 ton loads. It was a skilled driver in the day that could drive those grades, especially with the water cooled brakes. If it snowed a 1/4" or froze at all, things were shut down pronto. Now, you see less off highways and more of the bigger highway trucks and a change in the profile of driver - younger, less experience. And unfortunately more accidents involving steeper grades on roads. There was a rash of bad accidents / fatalities a couple of years back that prompted WCB to enforce / legislate certain design considerationsfor road grades in excess of 18%. It doesn't say we can't build them, just that now you have to ensure certain factors and consideration have been met and signed off by someone (P.Eng and Prof. Forester). I don't think we were building crazy, stupid road, it was the standard of the day. Jimbo is spot on for having "respect" of the road when hauling though. I took a ride down a 20%+ grade on a road that I had engineered and had a pretty tight grip on the seat with my ass. All you could see was sky as we rolled off the landing and headed straight down. That ride sure made me appreciate the guys that hauled on those roads and made me look alot harder for the "better route" when doing road and block layout.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 27, 2008)

Thanks for the post RPM. I always wanted to drive off highway with the old Hayes and Pacifics in the logging business but things didn't work that way. Would love to spend a day or two with people who know the business of falling and trucking in the trees. I was taught by a very good driver, perhaps one of the best, who was taught by an old timer in the oil patch. We had a saying, "you can go down a thousand hills too slow, but you'll only go down one too fast". Kinda took that one to heart and when rolling over on mine road nine, the truck (70 tons is all) wasn't anywhere near as heavy, I was on the retarder the whole descent at between 2 and 6 mph, and no brakes, was saving them for when I really wanted the ride to stop.

I knew there was a reason I thought I had the utmost of respect for log truckers. It's a shame that the hard learned lessons of the past are not being passed on to some of todays drivers.


----------



## RandyMac (Nov 29, 2008)

Off-highways are a blast to drive, I drove an old one, was kinda deaf at end of day, I'll see if I can find a pic of the old thing.
This one was new in 1978, the one I had was considerably older, with the cab to one side.


----------



## Eccentric (Nov 30, 2008)

RandyMac said:


> Off-highways are a blast to drive, I drove an old one, was kinda deaf at end of day, I'll see if I can find a pic of the old thing.
> This one was new in 1978, the one I had was considerably older, with the cab to one side.




Bet it was an International. Most of the offset cab single seater off highways I've seen have been old IHC iron. Of course I do have a shining for the brand...


----------



## slowp (Dec 3, 2008)

Here's the intersection. This is the last section of the road, then he'll rock it. He's still a one guy road construction crew. 





The rock tool is a big jackhammer, as my ears can tell you. I didn't have any earplugs in my pockets.










Looking back down the road. Sounds like there are plans to start logging soon. I'm keeping fingers crossed that there'll be some kind of a market.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 3, 2008)

Nice and tidy. Who pays for the rock, the logger or us poor and long suffering taxpayers?


----------



## slowp (Dec 3, 2008)

Gologit said:


> Nice and tidy. Who pays for the rock, the logger or us poor and long suffering taxpayers?



Why the logger, of course. But he's making some rock that'll work right there on the road. 

On another road, I heard everyday from the Oregon logger to "make those helicopter loggers rock the road. They have all kinds of money." That was for a road that accessed a unit that the Oregon guy was going to log. The helicopter guys cut out a landing and used that first. No rock on it yet.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 3, 2008)

slowp said:


> Why the logger, of course. But he's making some rock that'll work right there on the road.
> 
> On another road, I heard everyday from the Oregon logger to "make those helicopter loggers rock the road. They have all kinds of money." That was for a road that accessed a unit that the Oregon guy was going to log. The helicopter guys cut out a landing and used that first. No rock on it yet.



LOL...Sounds familiar. On a burn salvage this year there were seven different outfits using the same haul road. They bickered so much amongst themselves about who was going to maintain what part of the road that hardly anything got done. We finally offered to maintain it ourselves but we'd back-charge them accordingly. They hatched out some plans pretty quick...they wouldn't have liked our rates.


----------



## slowp (Dec 4, 2008)

Gologit said:


> LOL...Sounds familiar. On a burn salvage this year there were seven different outfits using the same haul road. They bickered so much amongst themselves about who was going to maintain what part of the road that hardly anything got done. We finally offered to maintain it ourselves but we'd back-charge them accordingly. They hatched out some plans pretty quick...they wouldn't have liked our rates.



That's how you do it..."If you boys can't play nicely together..." And it is covered in the contract in different wording though. But that is only on the real roads, not on temp. roads. I drained the road with my boot heel yesterday.


----------



## Bushler (Dec 4, 2008)

Nice road, be a shame to decomission it. Looks like there'll be significant blow down along the top of the cut. Leave the road in long enough to salvage that.

I called South Coast Mill and asked if there was any good news, they said no. Not buying logs.


----------



## Burvol (Dec 4, 2008)

Paul, your a good blade man. All of your blade work I saw when I was down was top notch  Have you thought about exporting your Doug Fir? Coos Bay ain't that far considering the price right now...950 a thousand. Around here anyway.


----------



## Bushler (Dec 4, 2008)

Jesse, I haven't checked. 950 sounds GREAT! Is Menasha still exporting?


----------



## Burvol (Dec 4, 2008)

Tell me about it, 950 is what I was told yesterday (have today off) and it looks good for ????? January 1st will tell the whole story weather I go back to tree work for the winter and lots of sturgeon/winter steelhead fishing or cut logs in snow and wonder why I quit drinking on those cold, wet, ####y, miserable days. OK, I'll never drink again (NEVER that sh!t stinks), but I can vididly remember why I would kill a bottle of sailor Jerry's with one can of coke after cutting in that ####.


----------



## Burvol (Dec 4, 2008)

Not sure who's all buying logs. Whouse is buying all the logs here. I got the timber owner walking my strips every week with a stick and a tape, poking, measuring, and asking about his wood, and what I'm doing with lengths, sorts, ect. I've been to the log yard 6 times!!! I got my facts straight on whats what with what in the market right now. I can recite all the codes for defects, lengths & size, sort, ect. I made him feel a little more comfortable with his wood I think. Oh ya, don't break logs = very bad.


----------

