# Mini's, Boxer vs Vermeer, which one to buy



## sgreanbeans

So I am at the point where I cannot make up my mind, so I throw this out for all you to help! 
I have been told that Boxer's are hard to control with 2 hands, like you cant do multiple functions while operating. The Vermeer on the other hand has "pilot" controls that are much easier. Could those of you who have them, let me know what ya think!
I also was told that you either have to move or load, not both at the same time with the Boxer, this is what is holding me back on them.


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## arbor pro

sgreanbeans said:


> So I am at the point where I cannot make up my mind, so I throw this out for all you to help!
> I have been told that Boxer's are hard to control with 2 hands, like you cant do multiple functions while operating. The Vermeer on the other hand has "pilot" controls that are much easier. Could those of you who have them, let me know what ya think!
> I also was told that you either have to move or load, not both at the same time with the Boxer, this is what is holding me back on them.



As you may know, I have the boxer 532dx. You are correct about the controls. It is difficult to operate both the steering controls and the loader controls simutaneously. That is the only downfall to the boxer. If the controls were like that of the vermeer, it would be the best machine out there hands down.

After I recently demo'd the vermeer 600tx, I can say that the joystick controls are indeed better and the machine is pretty comfortable to operate; however, it has less power than the boxer and will not move dirt or aggregate any easier. I did not get to try a grapple on the vermeer - only a dirt bucket. I would assume that it will work fine with a grapple.

If I were looking to operate multiple attachments, I would go the boxer. If only moving aggregate, dirt, etc, I would go with a ditchwitch 650. For everything else, there's the vermeer. Good all-around machine but not perfect by any means. None of the minis are unfortunately. Personally, I still like the bobcats best but they don't make a larger machine in the power and lifting range of the boxer, vermeer or ditchwitch. If they ever do, I'll be buying one.

AP


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## arbor pro

After making my previous post, I called Boxer/Mertz Manufacturing and spoke with a lead engineer. I told him about the the issues with the controls and he said I'm not the first to mention it. They are working on a prototype 'retrofit' that would allow a current boxer owner to change his machine controls to joystick controls. Not sure exactly what they would be like and any cost associated with it but he asked for my info and said he is going to speak with his group of engineers working on the prototype and see about using me as a field tester for the retrofitted controls. I hope they do. If they work out, the boxer might just become the machine I always hoped/expected it to be.


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## sgreanbeans

good deal! thanks for your insight, I was looking at the Boxer 427, was going to get the BMG and a grapple for it. Its good to know that they are working on that problem, makes me lean towards the Boxer over the Vermeer.


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## treevet

Dingo was the first mini and is the best. 5 pumps among other reasons.

May not be as cute as others but IMO they are the top dog (prob in sales as well).


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## capetrees

I've been thinking about a mini for a long time too and from what I've seen and read, Vermeer is most comfortable but the Boxer can't be beat for lifting power. If they upgrade the Boxer with Vermeer type controls, again, Boxer will be hard to beat in the mini market from what I see.


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## prentice110

2 companies near me have the vermeer and before I bought my mt52, I ran the vermeer. yes the controls are easy to operate, but i feel the machine is a bit squirrly. My friend at a landscape co was hireing me out to do alot of work with my mt52, and then bought a boxer at an auction. It only out lifts me by a lil bit , but the controls suck and so does the pump configuration. Hes always asking to borrow mine over his. You should check out the mini skid thread in the heavy equipment section. All your ?'s have all been answered there.


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## arbor pro

I wish I had taken pictures of my Boxer in action on Saturday. Took down a 36"dbh Silver Maple and loaded out the trunk sections in 36-48" lengths. My new grapple handled the big rounds great. The boxer grunted a little but lifted the rounds into the dump trailer fine. The only thing that bothered me is the lack of attachment roll-back power. Of course, my bobcat mt-50 had problems trying to roll back large trunk rounds too. 

Overall, I was able to clean up all the wood from the maple in about 1/2 the time my mt-50 would have been able to do it due to the extra lifting capacity of the boxer matched with the large grapple.

Only had a small drop zone so couldn't have imagined doing this job without a mini skid.

AP


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## prentice110

*Arbor Pro*

How much does that grapple weigh? I cant imagine being able to lift anything if I had that thing on my MT52.... I wanted a demo style grapple but they weigh so much. I have the BMG wich isnt light but still suprises me what I cant lift. I like the fact that I can manipulate logs thru tight gates with it holding them near verticale, and at the right angle , it brings the weight closer to the machine , so I can "cheat" on the capacity. ADD ON. I wish they put the straigt angle on the other way with the log dawgs on the BMG. and made them longer. every now and then when a log shifts when I get close to the fence or passed it it makes me think of the 'what ifs'. Havent hit anything yet, but anyone familiar with this biz knows that anything can and will happen. But Im such a dammed good operator, I shouldnt worry, tee hee.


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## treevet

I agree Prentice....I have the BMG and a Dingo grapple. I like the Dingo grapple for the logs as you do not need to worry about the grapple spinning around when you are trying to grab a log or if you are carrying a log thru a tight space and doing some damage.

It is best for grabbing big limbs or piles of limbs and pivoting them into the chipper's feeder rolls and just plain dragging brush.

With the Dingo (horizontal non pivoting) grapple you can just "doze" into a log until you get the right bite on the big boys or piles and we also will have a second guy jump onto the back of the unit to get the honkers air borne. The Dingo grapple also gets the logs higher for loading.

I also agree AP's grapple is made unnecessarily big and like my Dingo grapple.....you have to choke brush with a rope and attach it to the to grapple to drag brush non horizontally. I see that unit in the Tree Trader Mag every month. Hard to pay that much and not buy a new one (or a Dingo).


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## arbor pro

treevet said:


> ...I also agree AP's grapple is made unnecessarily big and like my Dingo grapple.....you have to choke brush with a rope and attach it to the to grapple to drag brush non horizontally. I see that unit in the Tree Trader Mag every month. Hard to pay that much and not buy a new one (or a Dingo).



You haven't seen my boxer in the Tree Trader every month. It only ran one month. New, a 532dx Boxer costs $23k without any attachments. Mine was listed for $19k including a $1500 grapple. That's significantly less than a new setup with only 50 hours on it.

That grapple would be way too big on a smaller mini skid but it's matched perfectly well for a 32hp skid steer. I think you're overlooking the fact that this boxer is lifts 50% more and has 50% more HP so it can handle the bigger grapple.

I've won't argue that a BMG grapple doesn't have its good points. However, for my operation, it is not the right grapple. A demolition-typle bucket/grapple works best. My custom grapple is just right for this machine. It would not have worked on my bobcat mt-50. On that machine, it would have been way way too big.

PS - I also tried my grapple on a ditchwitch sk650. It worked great. But then, the ditchwitch is also a 30+ hp machine. That's the difference. You can't put a big grapple on a little 20hp machine.


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## arbor pro

*pics*

I got some photos of the log rounds that I loaded with my boxer and new grapple on the maple removal I spoke of previously. The sides on the dump trailer are 18". The board extensions are 2x12s so that makes it 30" to the top of the boards. The logs are a good 36" dbh and I cut them at least 36" long because they're at least as long as the grapple is wide and it's 36".

Using a wood weight calculator, I come up with about 1000# for each chunk. The grapple easily fit around each piece - no need to grab it from the end like I had to with my bobcat and smaller grapple.

With the weight of the grapple and the log, i figure I was lifting at least 1300#. Not bad for a 'mini'. Will a dingo do that?


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## arbor pro

arbor pro said:


> I got some photos of the log rounds that I loaded with my boxer and new grapple on the maple removal I spoke of previously. The sides on the dump trailer are 18". The board extensions are 2x12s so that makes it 30" to the top of the boards. The logs are a good 36" dbh and I cut them at least 36" long because they're at least as long as the grapple is wide and it's 36".
> 
> Using a wood weight calculator, I come up with about 1000# for each chunk. The grapple easily fit around each piece - no need to grab it from the end like I had to with my bobcat and smaller grapple.
> 
> With the weight of the grapple and the log, i figure I was lifting at least 1300#. Not bad for a 'mini'. Will a dingo do that?



Forgot photos...


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## adam32

I have a Boxer but use it mainly for trenching and holes. It works awesome for that! About 700 hrs on it with pretty much zero trouble, a track will come off on steep/loose sidehills sometimes. Also use it for rock/dirt sometimes where the skid steer can't fit and yes it is kinda slow not being able to dump/load/move much at the same time, but its still A LOT better then a shovel and wheelbarrow! Haven't lifted any logs with it, got the excavator for that!!


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## prentice110

*A P, 2 things*

Ok you got the big one. Yes it must be nice to out lift all of us, but #1. I bought mine to go thru gates. #2. I hope you have a boxer dealer close to you. If you dont, you will no doubt one day understand why I said that.


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## arbor pro

prentice110 said:


> Ok you got the big one. Yes it must be nice to out lift all of us, but #1. I bought mine to go thru gates. #2. I hope you have a boxer dealer close to you. If you dont, you will no doubt one day understand why I said that.



1) The 532dx boxer will go through a 36" gate with the tracks retracted (How I run the machine 95% of the time). With the tracks extended for stability on slopes, it is 43" wide but again, I seldom run it that way. Actually, being one of the bigger mini skids while still being able to go through a 36" gate was one of the big selling points for my buying a boxer. The DW sk650 far outperforms the boxer in many ways but it's too darn wide (42" I believe) so I had to rule it out. Same with the new vermeer 800tx which looks promising but is also too wide.

2) I don't have a dealer close but my local mustang dealer can fix anything including minis. My machine just came out of warranty so it doesn't really matter who fixes it. I hope I don't have problems but your warning is heeded and I will welcome your "I told you so" if I start to have problems. Truce?

I believe there is yet to be a perfect mini skid on the market. I am not claiming the boxer to be such. It is far from it. Like I said previously, I would have gone with another bobcat if they made a 30hp mini but they don't. Dumb marketing on their part as sooner or later, they will be forced to come out with one in order to compete with boxer, ditch witch, vermeer and anybody else who has a bigger mini that still fits through a 36" gate.


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## prentice110

*Parts*

I dont want to fight or split hairs over it either, its just my amigos had a 'lot of fun' when it comes down to gettin parts for his boxer. I bought my mt52 in december 07' and becides the tracks, have had no problems whatsoever. I have 640hrs on that thing and it was brand spankin new when I got it. I got a dealer right down the road. Scares the hell outa me thinking about what to do when the starter goes. You gotta have the hands of a chinese midget to get to it, and once its loose, what/where do you go with the thing? the mechanic at Bobcat was talking to me about it cuz I asked, he said its a nitemare.


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## epicklein22

Any opinions on the Ditch Witch mini's? I see a few of them running around. Dingo's and vermeers rule the roost around here though overall. I'm not a big fan of Vermeer or Toro though.:bang:


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## treevet

arbor pro said:


> anybody else who has a bigger mini that still fits through a 36" gate.



bigger is not nec. better. Much harder on turf. My 525 tx Dingo 25 hp diesel is 34" wide and weighs 1900 lbs w/out attachments. It has a tip cap. of 1580 lbs. and turns and handles with finesse and ease. I have few to compare to but cannot imagine any other being any better. If I wanted to go bigger I would go to an articulating loader. When I want to take out huge stuff....I got a crane.

Some of the comparo's discussed can be like comparing an echo saw to a stihl ms200 just because they have similar displacement. There are so many factors but you have to look at the best "all arounder" Dingo is my bet.


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## arbor pro

epicklein22 said:


> Any opinions on the Ditch Witch mini's? I see a few of them running around. Dingo's and vermeers rule the roost around here though overall. I'm not a big fan of Vermeer or Toro though.:bang:



I tried the wide-tracked sk650 recently. That thing is incredibly impressive in just about every way except that it will not fit through a 36" gate without narrow tracks. With narrow tracks, it believe it would rip things up more and not get the traction that I would expect and need. If width is not a big factor to you and a 42" wide machine will work for your operation, I think the sk650's power, torque and ease of operation are hard to beat. Did I mention that it has unvelievable power for a mini!?! Kicks my Boxer's butt and that of vermeer's 600tx too.


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## treevet

I believe both of those machines....DW and Vermeer, weigh about 2700 lbs without attachments if I remember right when I was shopping for mine last year.


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## arbor pro

*I'm a bobcat owner again*

Just sold my boxer 532dx - heading out to Pennsylvania to another tree service. And just bought this '07 MT-52 with 290 hrs plus tiller, trencher, backhoe and tilt trailer (all like new) for the same money I sold my boxer for.

Thinking I did pretty good...


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## Blakesmaster

Good score! That trailer's real sweet. Let me know how that little backhoe works. My initial assumption would be that it was pretty weak but I could be wrong. Be good to hear a trustworthy opinion on it.


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## arbor pro

Blakesmaster said:


> Good score! That trailer's real sweet. Let me know how that little backhoe works. My initial assumption would be that it was pretty weak but I could be wrong. Be good to hear a trustworthy opinion on it.



If it works good, you want to buy it...?

Acutally, my Father-in-law is looking to do an addition onto their house and is already thinking I can dig the footings for him. See what happens if I still have the backhoe come spring. I really don't have a use for it otherwise.

AP


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## arbor pro

Blakesmaster said:


> Good score! That trailer's real sweet. Let me know how that little backhoe works. My initial assumption would be that it was pretty weak but I could be wrong. Be good to hear a trustworthy opinion on it.



I already have 3 guys 'fighting' over the trailer for $3k.  I guesss I should have asked more $ than that. It'll likely go to my brother-in-law for that amount. It's really too big for a mini skid and attachments and is better suited for a big loader.


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## Blakesmaster

arbor pro said:


> I already have 3 guys 'fighting' over the trailer for $3k.  I guesss I should have asked more $ than that. It'll likely go to my brother-in-law for that amount. It's really too big for a mini skid and attachments and is better suited for a big loader.



I'll buy your backhoe if you throw the trailer in for free. :hmm3grin2orange: Thanks for your help the other night. I don't think I got an answer from you on the length of your mini ramps on your dump though. When you get a chance could you toss me a number? I appreciate it.


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## WolverineMarine

All I can say is you guys have me drooling now for a mini..LMAO..That ash tree drop I posted on here from youtube would have been so much easier with one instead of making me an old man faster humping it up by hand that day..LOL..I saw on Tree Trader a mini mount that went on the front part of a dump trailer..anyone got something like that?


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## arbor pro

Blakesmaster said:


> I'll buy your backhoe if you throw the trailer in for free. :hmm3grin2orange: Thanks for your help the other night. I don't think I got an answer from you on the length of your mini ramps on your dump though. When you get a chance could you toss me a number? I appreciate it.



The ramps on my chip truck are 7' and the ones on my dump trailer are 6'. The dump trailer ramps were the ones I used on my 1-ton.


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## Blakesmaster

arbor pro said:


> The ramps on my chip truck are 7' and the ones on my dump trailer are 6'. The dump trailer ramps were the ones I used on my 1-ton.



Thanks.


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## treevet

WolverineMarine said:


> All I can say is you guys have me drooling now for a mini..LMAO..That ash tree drop I posted on here from youtube would have been so much easier with one instead of making me an old man faster humping it up by hand that day..LOL..I saw on Tree Trader a mini mount that went on the front part of a dump trailer..anyone got something like that?



The lower on and off the better imo. Cheap tilt trailer or fold up ramp trailer is so quick and easy and you can hand spin the trailer or use it for throwing brush on to take to the chipper etc. We can even hitch the trailer to the mini and tow it around.

Stowing ramps and ramping up to the level of a hitch or truck bed makes it uneccessarily difficult that it may even make you think twice about using the genius tree service tool.


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## treevet

we generally pull it around with the 4x4 yota but any vehicle will pull it out to job or take it back. It cost $695 with new spare. Loading is just as easy with pulling up to back, press down on tilt with the grapple (or bucket or whatever) and drive right on while grapple slides in. We keep the big bucket on the toyota bed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97XhAIIvFIM


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## codog

*Mt-52*

Glad to see you've come back to Bobcat Arborpro. Still really happy with my 52, although I'm dreaming about Gehl 140 everynight. I tried Boxer before the Bobcat. I chose not to go with Boxer because the dealer seemed like a con. I respect your posts and am wondering why you didn't stay with Boxer very long? 
What are your thoughts on the Gehl 140 or 340? I'm surprised there not selling like crazy. I'll keep my 52 but in the Spring I'm going to buy a Terex 130 or Gehl 140 or 340. I would appreciate feedback from you or anyone else.


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## arbor pro

codog said:


> Glad to see you've come back to Bobcat Arborpro. Still really happy with my 52, although I'm dreaming about Gehl 140 everynight. I tried Boxer before the Bobcat. I chose not to go with Boxer because the dealer seemed like a con. I respect your posts and am wondering why you didn't stay with Boxer very long?
> What are your thoughts on the Gehl 140 or 340? I'm surprised there not selling like crazy. I'll keep my 52 but in the Spring I'm going to buy a Terex 130 or Gehl 140 or 340. I would appreciate feedback from you or anyone else.



Simply put: Boxer power - great, Boxer controls - suck. 

If Boxer comes around to using joystick controls like everyone else, they'll have a decent machine. 

Besides that, i didn't like having to disconnect my grapple when loading it on my 'new' chip truck. With the mt-52's shorter length, I can leave the grapple attached. Then, I'm going to take the grapple carry platform that I had installed on the front of the truck and look into modifying it to carry my sc252 grinder. Then I can haul both in one trip. Either that or, if I can get Dave at Top Notch to drop his price on the 38 special to something the avg guy can afford, maybe I'll get one of those to run on the mini... $11,500.. Holy crap! Dave, you wanna trade a grinder for a backhoe...? 

AP


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## codog

*Arbor pro*

Thanks for response. I'm no longer interested in Boxer; I think their made in SC, but it seems like everything else I'm interested in is made out in your part of the country. Terex, Bobcat, and Gehl. Maybe I'm wrong.
Brother in law, who's in excavating just demoed a tracked Cat (Are they made out there? Peoria?) By what he said to me, I won't be surprised if he'll have one within a week. Life is way to short, too many toys, and life is too damm good. Hope everyone who reads this has a great 2011. 
I've had a little too much to drink tonight. Sorry!!! 
Happy Holidays ArborPro.


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## treeman75

I'm buying one before spring I think a vermeer. I'm still trying to decide between tires or tracks. What do you guys think?


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## WolverineMarine

WOW..check this little machine out thats made by ditchwitch..I think I'm in love..LMAO this thing looks wicked..and you can get it with mini tracks that replace the tires too...I would LOOOOOVE to demo one of these little bastards!

http://www.ditchwitch.com/compact-utility/zahn/


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## stumper63

Any pricing yet for those ditchwitch's? Seem really compact.

Stumper63


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## arbor pro

codog said:


> Thanks for response. I'm no longer interested in Boxer; I think their made in SC, but it seems like everything else I'm interested in is made out in your part of the country. Terex, Bobcat, and Gehl. Maybe I'm wrong.
> Brother in law, who's in excavating just demoed a tracked Cat (Are they made out there? Peoria?) By what he said to me, I won't be surprised if he'll have one within a week. Life is way to short, too many toys, and life is too damm good. Hope everyone who reads this has a great 2011.
> I've had a little too much to drink tonight. Sorry!!!
> Happy Holidays ArborPro.



Merry Christmas to you too, codog and the same to everyone else on AS!

AP


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## arbor pro

WolverineMarine said:


> WOW..check this little machine out thats made by ditchwitch..I think I'm in love..LMAO this thing looks wicked..and you can get it with mini tracks that replace the tires too...I would LOOOOOVE to demo one of these little bastards!
> 
> http://www.ditchwitch.com/compact-utility/zahn/



Reviews I've read say that they're great attachment carriers but no guts for digging, etc. If I did primarily trenching, augering, etc, I'd consider them but, from what my research revealed, they wouldn't be as good as a mini skid for tree work. The new gehl articulating machines might be ok though. 

As for tires vs tracks, it comes down to traction vs non-grass-ripping. Can't get both IMO, it's one or the other. With tracks, you have to take wide turns on grass but can easily go through rough or soft areas where tires might get hung up though tires are certainly easier on grass. I prefer tracks.

AP


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## WolverineMarine

arbor pro said:


> Reviews I've read say that they're great attachment carriers but no guts for digging, etc. If I did primarily trenching, augering, etc, I'd consider them but, from what my research revealed, they wouldn't be as good as a mini skid for tree work. The new gehl articulating machines might be ok though.
> 
> As for tires vs tracks, it comes down to traction vs non-grass-ripping. Can't get both IMO, it's one or the other. With tracks, you have to take wide turns on grass but can easily go through rough or soft areas where tires might get hung up though tires are certainly easier on grass. I prefer tracks.
> 
> AP



According to the site there is a dealer about an hour from me in MI..I may have to call em up and see if they have one to check out..I think I just need to pretty much rent one machine at a time and see how I like them individually..I mean..I have heard the cheers and jeers to all of the machines you have talked about..and I'm sure it comes down in the end to personal prefference..how close the dealer is..and a few other things..


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## squad143

What is their lift capacity? I looked on their brochure but, either I missed it or it's not listed.


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## WolverineMarine

squad143 said:


> What is their lift capacity? I looked on their brochure but, either I missed it or it's not listed.



the tipping weight on it was 800lbs with the tool carrier

I'm not saying this thing is perfect by any means..just looks like a really cool option..another one I havent heard mentioned on here yet is the Ramrod out of Canada..a guy has one with tires for sale here.. I'm gonna see if he'll rent it and and see if I like it


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## randyg

WolverineMarine said:


> the tipping weight on it was 800lbs with the tool carrier



The tipping weight on my S600tx is 1450 lbs (with a 175lb opr). I'm over 200 and don't think I can lift that much unless it's straight up with a chain around the tool carrier. Rated operating capacity is 500 lbs which is conservative I think. Tracks sure float nice over soft ground or snow, but only without a load. Pick up a 6 or 700 lb log and its like riding around on two front tires. Sure can race back and forth on a single wide (4 foot) road of plywood though, and spin 180s on a single sheet with very little practic. It's an awesome toy for sure I MEAN TOOL! Yeah, TOOL. 

Merry Christmas All
randy


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## out on a linb

*Hi guys*

I own a 25G Thomas mini and love the machine. I carry wood with the Branchmanager attachment on the weekends and snow plow my drive. The grapple is 200 Lbs and can pick another 300-500 Lbs dependent on the grade of the ground. I would like to get a machine with alittle more lift hieght and pushing power. The machine only has one hydralic motor for each steer side. 
I already decided that terf tires are the way to go on a new machine. The new tracks destroy the grass. They also dive into the soft grass with a heavy load... Tires float well with heavy loads.

I test drove the Boxer 427W and loved the machine but hated the controls.. I also test drove the S800 tx Vermeer and other than it was a bigger machine it has the power like a real skid steer. The peice of wood i picked with that machine was truely impressive... I like to load the front of my trailer high and put the mini in the back on medium size jobs. The S800 is too big for that but alsome!


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## out on a linb

*more info*

My Thomas S600 Vermeer 427w Boxer

Width 39.9 in 40.5 42.5
Height to hinge pin 68 in 80 69
weight machine 1600 Lb 2155 1850
ground clearance 4.25 in 5.75 5.6
operating capacity 475 Lb 600 Lb 875 ?
Tip capacity ? 1200 Lb 1750 ?
Travel speed 3.1 mph 4.4 4.5
Hydraulic auxilary 8.5 gpm 13.2 12.6 
Look how high the vermeer can lift that is why it can not lift as much !!! So if you have two operators on the machine how much can you lift to 80 inches??


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## prentice110

*Ramrods*



WolverineMarine said:


> the tipping weight on it was 800lbs with the tool carrier
> 
> I'm not saying this thing is perfect by any means..just looks like a really cool option..another one I havent heard mentioned on here yet is the Ramrod out of Canada..a guy has one with tires for sale here.. I'm gonna see if he'll rent it and and see if I like it


 
Not that it means anything, but I was at a Ramrod dealer, and they had 3 of the same model lined up in a row. All 3 were sitting waiting for repair cuz the booms were all broke, on all 3 machines!


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## arbor pro

Sounds like you have your heart set on a wheeled machine so, you probably wouldn't be interested in either of my two used minis but, they are for sale in case you change your mind about tracks. Personally, I prefer tracks over wheels. Wheels get hung up on curbs and debris and soft ground while tracks will go over and through just about anything. they don't dig grass unless you actually skid to turn rather than take wider turns. Good luck on whatever you go with.

FYI - either of these machines will lift about 1000#. the DW lifts about 7" higher than the bobcat but, overall, I think the bobcat lift arms are built stronger.

AP



out on a linb said:


> I own a 25G Thomas mini and love the machine. I carry wood with the Branchmanager attachment on the weekends and snow plow my drive. The grapple is 200 Lbs and can pick another 300-500 Lbs dependent on the grade of the ground. I would like to get a machine with alittle more lift hieght and pushing power. The machine only has one hydralic motor for each steer side.
> I already decided that terf tires are the way to go on a new machine. The new tracks destroy the grass. They also dive into the soft grass with a heavy load... Tires float well with heavy loads.
> 
> I test drove the Boxer 427W and loved the machine but hated the controls.. I also test drove the S800 tx Vermeer and other than it was a bigger machine it has the power like a real skid steer. The peice of wood i picked with that machine was truely impressive... I like to load the front of my trailer high and put the mini in the back on medium size jobs. The S800 is too big for that but alsome!


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## squad143

out on a linb said:


> I own a 25G Thomas mini and love the machine. I carry wood with the Branchmanager attachment QUOTE]
> 
> I have a 25G with a BMG as well. Love it. We call it "Thomas the third ground guy". Does the work of three (or more).


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## out on a linb

Yeah it is a back saver and it really does well at moving wood around. It is also great at those long drags, we pile the brush in big piles and drag the whole thing to the chipper. I like to use it around the house as well and it sucks at digging ( that my be the main reason for getting a vermeer) DON' T TELL MY WIFE....

I like my THomas, so i was going to buy a banged up old bobcat from a friend. That means on big jobs taking more trips to the jobsite. Then i decided to upgrade my favorite machine to the same size but newer and tougher.. 
everyone needs a write off....


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## out on a linb

My ------------Thomas ------S600 Vermeer ------427w Boxer

Width ---------39.9 in --------40.5 ---------------42.5
Height to hinge pin 68 in -------80 in --------------69 in
weight machine 1600 Lb -------2155 Lb ----------- 1850Lb
ground clearance 4.25 in-------- 5.75 in ------------ 5.6in
operating capacity 475 Lb --------600 Lb -----------875 Lb ?
Tip capacity ? --------------------1200 Lb ----------1750 Lb?
Travel speed ------3.1 mph ------- 4.4 mph --------- 4.5 mph
Hydraulic auxilary -8.5 gpm --------13.2 gpm -------- 12.6 gpm 
Look how high the vermeer can lift that is why it can not lift as much !!! So if you have two operators on the machine how much can you lift to 80 inches??


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## capetrees

Statistically, the Boxer 500 series win hands down for lifting strength but ergonomically , the Vermeers have been winners for thier controls according to postings in here.


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## out on a linb

*vermeer*

I would like to talk to someone that owns a s600 vermeer to make sure that it would be whirth the money to upgrade my Thomas 25g.. I am very happy with the lifting capacity of the Thomas. It would be nice to lift higher, heavier, and faster but that may make taking down trees toooo easy...
I need to upgrade or buy something this year. I was going to get a BMA mini attachment stump grinder but i am into climbing not playing in the dirt.... 

I also heard of two different machines that needed to have there hydralic pumps replaced. I like to do a lot of research before jumping into something...


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## treeman75

The Vermeer's that were made before 2006 had hydraulic pump problems. A new pump is 3500 thats what the dealer told me. I have s600tx with a BMG I bought last month. I havent used it for trees yet but have moved snow with it. I bought a 14' dump trailer the Vermeer will load it great. The grapple reaches to the middle of the trailer and it has plenty of clearence for loading logs. I cant wait to use my set up I have been dreaming and fantasizing about it too long!


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## out on a linb

Thank you for the info. My Thomas loads the 14 Foot brimar low profile trailer good. The big peices we load from the back because "he" can not lift those ones high enough.. The BMA grapple is great... The extra 12 inches will make the mini the ultimate wood mover...
As far as the snow removal i took an old plow that was rusted out on the bottom from sitting in the grass and cut it 4 inches off the bottom, 5 foot long blade and welded it up. Shortened the truck framework and made a plate. It pushes more snow than i can with the bucket. I think it is the extra weight from the down pressure.


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## out on a linb

Here is some more


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## out on a linb

*mini loader*

Treeman75 what year did you end up getting? How do you like the performance in the snow? My Thomas has wide tires that float on snow and when it cuts in, all i have to do is use the bucket to lift the front end up, then step the snow down.. It usually can pull its self out then.. Let me know THanks


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## treeman75

I bought a 2006 with 300hr from my local dealer. I run a vermeer chipper too they gave me a smokin deal on the mini. It pushes snow awesome, I tried going up a ditch got half way up and the tracts started slipping. That was in 2-3' of snow. I drove it through a 3' pile of snow on flat ground it took me two tries but got right through. YouTube - ‪Mini Skidsteer Pushes Snow‬&rlm;


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## treeman75

That vid will give you good idea. I sure it would handle a bigger bucket or plow.


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## Bigus Termitius

Anyone running stump grinder attachments with any luck?

If I could forego a 252 with a mini and grinder attachment, it's worth it to me.


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## arbor pro

Bigus Termitius said:


> Anyone running stump grinder attachments with any luck?
> 
> If I could forego a 252 with a mini and grinder attachment, it's worth it to me.


 
I have a bradco sg15 attachment and, while I've yet to try it out myself, it looks like it will work nice for smaller stumps (20" and under). The research I've done leads me to believe that it will be fairly slow on anything larger.


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## Bigus Termitius

treeman75 said:


> I bought a 2006 with 300hr from my local dealer. I run a vermeer chipper too they gave me a smokin deal on the mini. It pushes snow awesome, I tried going up a ditch got half way up and the tracts started slipping. That was in 2-3' of snow. I drove it through a 3' pile of snow on flat ground it took me two tries but got right through. YouTube - ‪Mini Skidsteer Pushes Snow‬&rlm;


 
Define smoking deal. Just curious what you shelled out for it. Thanks.


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## Bigus Termitius

arbor pro said:


> I have a bradco sg15 attachment and, while I've yet to try it out myself, it looks like it will work nice for smaller stumps (20" and under). The research I've done leads me to believe that it will be fairly slow on anything larger.


 
I don't mind taking a little extra time if it saves me from having more equipment than I need. Let us know how that work's out. If it can do near or as well as the 252, I'll be happy. Big stumps I'll sub out till i can get a bigger unit...if ever.

I really need a skid steer this year and likely will try for a mini with a couple of attachments. Thanks for the response and pics.


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## arbor pro

Bigus Termitius said:


> I don't mind taking a little extra time if it saves me from having more equipment than I need. Let us know how that work's out. If it can do near or as well as the 252, I'll be happy. Big stumps I'll sub out till i can get a bigger unit...if ever.
> 
> I really need a skid steer this year and likely will try for a mini with a couple of attachments. Thanks for the response and pics.


 
Actually, I'm selling that bradco stump grinder. got it as a package with a bunch of other mini skid attachments and I already have a 252 so don't really need it. In case you aren't aware of it - I'm selling a bobcat mt52 as well as a ditch witch sk500. bobcat is like new. DW has a few hours on it but runs great. Shoot me a pm or, better yet, give me a call if you're interested and I'll get you prices and more photos.

I shipped a bobcat out to blakesmaster in NY last summer and a boxer out to a tree service in PA a couple months ago and shipping was only $750 each.

scott - ap 605-228-9350


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## Bigus Termitius

LOL! The difference between men and boys....yes sir indeed. :cool2:

I'll keep that 52 in mind. I'm not ready yet, I need to get the season rolling and see what becomes of my yellow pages ad and 4 months of pounding the name in everybody's heads over the local radio. 

I'm starting to get some calls this week, one guy even looking for a job.

I have a Vermeer dealer to the west and a bobcat to the south, so it'll be between the two brands. There is a boxer dealer close by too, but having run equipment my whole life, I can't stand the idea of not being able to move and articulate at the same time.


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## out on a linb

Any mini you use will be a back saver and you will not want to be without. Just like a chipper !!! I will never go back to the old days, loading brush into the truck and cutting it every foot so you can stomp it down.. I will rent one if i have to.
You will find all sorts of uses for a mini - Plow snow, drag brush, move wood out of the way on a drop and leave, my BMA grapple has a rope lowering device, rolling logs over to cut the bottom, pulling on ropes, the list goes on and on..... They are great and make tree work almost too easy !!!!


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## Bigus Termitius

out on a linb said:


> Any mini you use will be a back saver and you will not want to be without. Just like a chipper !!! I will never go back to the old days, loading brush into the truck and cutting it every foot so you can stomp it down.. I will rent one if i have to.
> You will find all sorts of uses for a mini - Plow snow, drag brush, move wood out of the way on a drop and leave, my BMA grapple has a rope lowering device, rolling logs over to cut the bottom, pulling on ropes, the list goes on and on..... They are great and make tree work almost too easy !!!!


 
I used to kinda scoff at the mini skids, mostly for the price, but the more I consider it, the more I want a mini first. Maybe later I'll get an enclosed cab unit, maybe not.


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## arbor pro

Bigus Termitius said:


> I used to kinda scoff at the mini skids, mostly for the price, but the more I consider it, the more I want a mini first. Maybe later I'll get an enclosed cab unit, maybe not.


 
That's where I'm at right now - been using minis exclusively for 5 years now and wouldn't be without one. If I had to choose between full-sized skid steer and mini, I would go with the mini because it will go just about anywhere and do about anything though it might take a little longer than a big skid steer. 

Now I'm at the point of buying a bigger skid steer too just to speed up cleanup on big removals but they'll always be a place on my chip truck for a mini skid.

If you would hurry up and buy one of my minis, we could help each other out - you could stop breaking your back and I could buy my bigger skid steer!


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## out on a linb

I will be selling my 2002 Thomas 25G For $6000 in a month or so.. Vermeer dealer is going to bring one out to test out soon S600 wheeled machine. The wife is almost on board... It is never easy...........


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## Bigus Termitius

arbor pro said:


> That's where I'm at right now - been using minis exclusively for 5 years now and wouldn't be without one. If I had to choose between full-sized skid steer and mini, I would go with the mini because it will go just about anywhere and do about anything though it might take a little longer than a big skid steer.
> 
> Now I'm at the point of buying a bigger skid steer too just to speed up cleanup on big removals but they'll always be a place on my chip truck for a mini skid.
> 
> If you would hurry up and buy one of my minis, we could help each other out - you could stop breaking your back and I could buy my bigger skid steer!


 
I hear you...in stereo. I almost had a reason to rent a 52 late last year with a grinder, but I was lowballed on both gigs that I wanted to employ it on. I'll have an excuse soon enough as I have some good size removals coming up.

It was your chip truck conversion that really got me thinking about these units. 

I bought an old skid steer trailer last year just to save on full sized rentals for this year. Not only do I need to save the back, but time and energy of a day as well, especially going full time. No two ways about it. Luckily, my landlord lets me steal the MF loader tractor if it's local, and he's looking into trailers for it, but I can't rely on that for everything. We'll be in touch.


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*25g*

Whats your hours on unit?


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## Bigus Termitius

Does anyone have info, or anyone running, a log splitter off of a mini? Or is it a custom item? Any info for design specs would be appreciated.


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## out on a linb

There are 433 hrs on the machine.. The front tires are worn. The machine is in good shape..


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## squad143

Bigus Termitius said:


> Does anyone have info, or anyone running, a log splitter off of a mini? Or is it a custom item? Any info for design specs would be appreciated.


 
Branch Manager make them: Branch Manager Log Splitter from Branch Manager Attachments


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## capetrees

2007 Vermeer

might be worth a trip


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## arbor pro

capetrees said:


> 2007 Vermeer
> 
> might be worth a trip


 
You would buy a $12k vermeer with 700 hrs but not a $12k bobcat with only 290hrs? Is there's enough difference between the two in your mind that you could justify spending same money on a machine with 400 more hours?

I'm just wondering because I consider the two machines as basically the same after having run both. A few more hp in the vermeer but not so much more. Same lifting capacity. Very similar controls. Bobcat does require a ride-on platform whereas the vermeer has an integrated platform. Other than that, not much difference except white vs yellow.


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## Natewood

it seems as the bobcat is mostly overlooked.... i did a lot of research on minis and ended up with the bobcat for a couple reasions: its attachment plate is compatible with full size skidsteers: meaning you can move(even use!)some of your fullsize attachments if you already have or are planning on getting one.
secondly, its hydraulic pressure/ output. at 14gpm and 3000 psi its able to run those fullsize attachments it can pick up. if i recall its the most of any 36" mini. i run my fullsize auger from my 773 on it all the time.
Third, its weight operating load.Forget about rated capacity, it weighs 2500 lbs and it can pick up more than a 1500lb machine. period. I consistently pick 1500+ lbs with my bmg grapple, drive up the ramps into my 7x12 dump trailer with five foot sides and stack it full. And then jacknife the trailer and load it in the bed of my pickup.
how about desigfn and durability?? I "overuse" my equipment all the time and this thing keeps trucking!! no cracked boom, blown pumps/ seals, nothing.
Power. i know 23 hp doesnt sound like much but deisels have much more useable power than a gas,ie torque. my boxer 427(with 27hp gas) doesnt even come close.
Controls. Even a caveman can operate it. so simple so straightforward, no learning curve or getting used to even after jumping out of a pilot or foot/ hand machine.
Now the bad. I wish it lifted higher. I almostrbought the vermeer just because of this one thing. i can barely load stump grindings into a pickup bed with it. The tracks could have been longer.I think it has one of the longest tracks in it class, but it seems like theres enough room there to go bigger. that would mean more stability and morelongevity of the tracks.i go through tracks like crazy,primarily because I drive it up the ramps while carrying aload all the time. When they say compact, they meant it.I had to change a starter(our fault, neglected a faulty key switch) and it took almost six hours. it was so bad i decided to replaCE THE ALTERNATOR AND BELT TOO JAST TO MAKE SURE I DIDN'T HAVE TO GO BACK IN THERE. sorry for caps
I've owned three minis, a bobcat mt52,a boxer 427,and a dingo525. I've rented practically every one out there and I keep gravitating towards the bobcat. I'd love to try out the new vermeer though.Oh and i've had a fullsize machine for ten years and a mini for four. If i could rewind time, I'd have the mini first. and maybe forgo a fullsize skidsteer and just get a small articulating loader(my next aquisition).I had a swinger 2000 and i still cant figure out how this guy convinced me to sell it!! kick myself for that all the time....
Just my two cents, i'm sure someone will (and feel free to) disagree and add points


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## Natewood

View attachment 174338
View attachment 174339


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## ducaticorse

Natewood said:


> it seems as the bobcat is mostly overlooked.... i did a lot of research on minis and ended up with the bobcat for a couple reasions: its attachment plate is compatible with full size skidsteers: meaning you can move(even use!)some of your fullsize attachments if you already have or are planning on getting one.
> secondly, its hydraulic pressure/ output. at 14gpm and 3000 psi its able to run those fullsize attachments it can pick up. if i recall its the most of any 36" mini. i run my fullsize auger from my 773 on it all the time.
> Third, its weight operating load.Forget about rated capacity, it weighs 2500 lbs and it can pick up more than a 1500lb machine. period. I consistently pick 1500+ lbs with my bmg grapple, drive up the ramps into my 7x12 dump trailer with five foot sides and stack it full. And then jacknife the trailer and load it in the bed of my pickup.
> how about desigfn and durability?? I "overuse" my equipment all the time and this thing keeps trucking!! no cracked boom, blown pumps/ seals, nothing.
> Power. i know 23 hp doesnt sound like much but deisels have much more useable power than a gas,ie torque. my boxer 427(with 27hp gas) doesnt even come close.
> Controls. Even a caveman can operate it. so simple so straightforward, no learning curve or getting used to even after jumping out of a pilot or foot/ hand machine.
> Now the bad. I wish it lifted higher. I almostrbought the vermeer just because of this one thing. i can barely load stump grindings into a pickup bed with it. The tracks could have been longer.I think it has one of the longest tracks in it class, but it seems like theres enough room there to go bigger. that would mean more stability and morelongevity of the tracks.i go through tracks like crazy,primarily because I drive it up the ramps while carrying aload all the time. When they say compact, they meant it.I had to change a starter(our fault, neglected a faulty key switch) and it took almost six hours. it was so bad i decided to replaCE THE ALTERNATOR AND BELT TOO JAST TO MAKE SURE I DIDN'T HAVE TO GO BACK IN THERE. sorry for caps
> I've owned three minis, a bobcat mt52,a boxer 427,and a dingo525. I've rented practically every one out there and I keep gravitating towards the bobcat. I'd love to try out the new vermeer though.Oh and i've had a fullsize machine for ten years and a mini for four. If i could rewind time, I'd have the mini first. and maybe forgo a fullsize skidsteer and just get a small articulating loader(my next aquisition).I had a swinger 2000 and i still cant figure out how this guy convinced me to sell it!! kick myself for that all the time....
> Just my two cents, i'm sure someone will (and feel free to) disagree and add points


 
I'm not calling you a liar or calling you out. But will you explain how you pick up, roll up a ramp, and load a truck with a 1500lb load in a grapple that weighs a hundred plus lbs with a machine with a rated operating lift @500lb and a tip weight of 1600lb?


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## Natewood

did you see the pics? the machine is tippy carrying that much weight but you can actually pull the cventer of gravity back using a bmg and carry more. and when you go up the ramps its easy bc the weight transfers to the rear of the machine. If you use the platform(which I dont bc of space reastraints)you can effectively copunterweight or leverage it even more. I just loaded out a 45" austrian pine but that fell on a house in a windstorm sunday(9 days ago) and had to go down hill which limits its carrying ability tremendously. But it still got er done!!!


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## ducaticorse

I did see the pic. That's a big chunk of wood. Did you weigh or chart it out to find out the weight?


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## Natewood

those pics were right after i got the machine. I cant remeber if i charted it(i think i did) but its a 48"red oak round about 20". the log is red maple 42" dia by eight feet. you can see in the pic with the log it was almost at its tipping point as the back of the tracks left the ground when i got off the sulky. After using the bmg for a while I now know I could have rolled it back more to ditribute the weight towards the rear of the machine more. Like I said it was just delivered and I was excited so i snapped a couple pics on my phone. lol


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## Natewood

Oh, another negative about my bobcat that escaped my research.... its one of the only machines that doesn't go as fast in reverse as in forward....annoying when you're dragging brush piles to the chipper


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## arbor pro

Natewood said:


> Oh, another negative about my bobcat that escaped my research.... its one of the only machines that doesn't go as fast in reverse as in forward....annoying when you're dragging brush piles to the chipper


 
I agree with all your previous points and this one too - unfortunately. The mt52 is a solid machine all around but you'd think they could make the reverse a bit snappier. 

Nate, you don't need a trencher for your mt52, do you?


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## Natewood

kinda lookin for a trencher... my fullsize one doesn't do so well on such a light machine. How much?


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## arbor pro

Natewood said:


> kinda lookin for a trencher... my fullsize one doesn't do so well on such a light machine. How much?


 
Hoping to get $2750 as it is just like new. This model (Bobcat LT113) costs about $3300 new (without chain) and comes with 4 different chain options ranging from $450 to $950. This tencher has the highest priced chain option of the 4 with 50/50 dirt & bullet teeth so cost about $4250 new. I think it's easily worth $1500 less than a new one but you tell me. I also have a few other things for sale. All photos can be viewed at the below link. If you're interested in discussing it further, give me a call. scott 605-228-9350.

https://picasaweb.google.com/betsyandscott/ArborPro//


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## green338

arbor pro said:


> Hoping to get $2750 as it is just like new. This model (Bobcat LT113) costs about $3300 new (without chain) and comes with 4 different chain options ranging from $450 to $950. This tencher has the highest priced chain option of the 4 with 50/50 dirt & bullet teeth so cost about $4250 new. I think it's easily worth $1500 less than a new one but you tell me. I also have a few other things for sale. All photos can be viewed at the below link. If you're interested in discussing it further, give me a call. scott 605-228-9350.
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/betsyandscott/ArborPro//



Sorry for bringing up an old thread.

Arbor Pro, I have noticed, that you have owned the Ditch Witch SK500, Bobcat MT52, and Vermeer S600TX. I own a Toro Dingo 420TX, and although it's better than shoveling, I want something with more dump reach and power. I currently use the trencher, forks, tiller, concrete breaker, and auger attachments in that order (with trenching getting the most usage and auger the least use). I'm trying to spend under $15K for a used one, which would you recommend? If you don't mind me asking, which do you currently own? It seems like you've tried most of them....

Have you encountered any mechanical issues with any? 

Any help would be much appreciated.


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## treeman75

That was the most important thing for me also. The vermeer and ditchwitch have the same and the highest lifting out of the minis. I went with the vermeer s600tx and love it and think its the best machine and the best controls.


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