# If You Could Look Inside Another Company...



## Nickrosis (Feb 21, 2006)

Which company would you look at, for what, and why?


----------



## Nickrosis (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm asking because I have an opportunity and a budget to do so.  Most of you probably don't know much about me, but I grew up in the tree and landscape company that I work in now. The experience is a huge blessing but the lack of outside exposure is a limitation that I recognize. The only other job I've ever had was being the president of a non-profit organization that was helpful in many ways but not in all respects.

Of course I have a bunch of ideas of what kinds of things to ask about and try to learn about, take notes, etc. But what would you look for and try to learn?


----------



## PTS (Feb 22, 2006)

I think that every company out there does something helpfull and inovative that could be learned from to further the Arborist Industry. However there are also things being done that should be avoided at all costs. So my advise is Look, and listen. Make the mental notes. Find out about safety, equipment and why they use that particular equipment. Example dump truck vs. Dump trailer or tree shears vs. Chainsaw. 

For me I am always looking at ways to better our service, protect our employees, protect our customer and their property from damage, faster ways of doing things, and yet still trying to keep the cost down as low as possible and the profit vs equipment expese to a reasonable level. If cutting trees with a saw vs a tree shears is equivilant in time just more physical labor then I will do the labor to save in the equipment expense.

So I guess, I would have to ask myself the above and compare it to how they do things. 

Maybe they hug a tree before they cut it down and they have noticed a 75% increase in business. If this was the case, I would be half tempted to open my arms and start hugging.  Hope this helps.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark (Feb 22, 2006)

First thing to determine: Are they successful?

Second thing to determine: Are they succeeding by luck or good planning?


If they are succeeding, and it's not just dumb luck....


Bidding. How do they calculate the cost of jobs?


----------



## Nickrosis (Feb 23, 2006)

No leader in sight!

In our industry, I really believe it comes down to operations. The work is plentiful, skilled people can be found, the margins are slim but acceptable... you just have to perform! There isn't a magic method to invent or any kind of intense competition on an industry-wide scale. If you manage things well, you'll succeed!


----------



## clearance (Feb 23, 2006)

Nick, I advise you to stay away from utility, you care about trees to much to be happy multilating them to keep the power on. I would go utility cause thats what I know but it is a sometimes thankless task, at least there are lots of buzz jobs.


----------



## kmoose (Feb 23, 2006)

I wish the skilled help you speak of could be more plentiful in my area.
Don't discount the "utility work" to quickly. Our vegetation management department has taken on a much different stance than just butchering for sake of continuity of electrical service. Clearance, I know you don't mean to generalize, but not all electric companies and coops conduct themselves in a manner that would be categorized as “arboristic mutilation”. With the help of consultant groups and continuing education, my department strives to maintain a balance of effective directional, drop crotch pruning coupled with extensive removals of trees that have been improperly pruned years prior. There is a new urgency with utilities to find and implement better vegetation management techniques and the experienced people like Nick to help make it happen. 
We have learned from the past that "window" and side trimming only promotes accelerated regrowth. Rapid regrowth reduces trim cycle duration. Short trim cycles = big $$$ and ever increasing VM budgets while system reliability digresses. Our consumers are on board too. Planning work using certified arborist and holding contractors to proper trimming techniques has benefited everyone...........especially the trees.


----------



## clearance (Feb 23, 2006)

Moose, you sound like politician, I have heard that same kind of talk from my utility "here at B.C. Hydro we strive to mantain a safe and reliable power system, respecting the enviroment and all our valued customers....blah, blah..." Translated "We will get the lowest possible price for utility work by encouraging competition for limited work, shifting conflicts or problems that may come about, whether or not our fault, onto the struggling contractor who will push his guys even harder to mantain our system and ensure we in management get bonuses" While being totally commited to ensuring the "highest safety standards" Low bid=safety, right. Our consumers are on board too-really? Guess youve never been around when some treehugging freak comes unglued and calls you every name under the sun because you are cutting down a p.o.s. tree before it wastes the line. And when you have had enough abuse and tell them where to go, they phone the utility and complain that they have been "verbally assualted". Might as well have just punched them out, cause guess whos side Hydro will take? Maybe you are a good guy, be on the safe side Nick, watch 'em.


----------



## kmoose (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow Clearance, I wish you would come see our operation. I think you would be surprised at how differently we handle things. Maybe it is the fact that we are a Coop. Never the less, our use of subcontracted utility arborist pre planners and post inspectors really HAS help customer relations. We are currently utilizing a unit bid contract that enables contactors to better plan and schedule their work. Unit work (categorized work separated into size specific removals, directional trims and units of brush) seems to ease the problems with deadlines and mismanagement you described. As far as the consumers......well just today 4 separate consumers agreed to the removal of 62 cedar trees up to 20" dbh. that lined the road in front of their property. I authorized stump grinding and tree replacement vouchers (tree for tree) under the agreement to locate the replants way clear the proposed line upgrade. In 2005 our cooperative earned the highest consumer satisfaction rating in the nation (SADI). And we are no little coop. 150,000+ members with 5000+ miles of overhead line. 
Clearance, the company where you work may have a crappy attitude toward VM, but we don't. Maybe you should consider an employment change also. Proactive, responsible, vegetation management may only be lip service at BC hydro, but in other places it is a reality. Nick, maybe you should just watch out for places like BC hydro..............By the way, I am neither a politician nor company management.........yet.


----------



## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Moose, maybe I came on a little strong, saw the word conslutant, flipped me out. Hope you ask the guys that actually do the work for thier opinions. I really got fed up with all the people that think they can have an omellette without anyone breaking eggs for them, and the utility that would kiss thier ass. My view is this safety#1, powerline #2, trees #3 By all means trim properly, when in doubt take it out, no exceptions. Good luck, hope your program works well.


----------



## kmoose (Feb 24, 2006)

clearance said:


> Guess youve never been around when some treehugging freak comes unglued and calls you every name under the sun because you are cutting down a p.o.s. tree before it wastes the line. And when you have had enough abuse and tell them where to go, they phone the utility and complain that they have been "verbally assualted". Might as well have just punched them out, cause guess whos side Hydro will take? Maybe you are a good guy, be on the safe side Nick, watch 'em.



Accually, that is one of my specialties (problem consumers). The problem arises from years of "asking permission" to trim or remove rather than notifing the consumers of the companies obligation to mantain clearance and providing copies of original easements giving us legal right to maintain. Having management that backs you up and keeping realistic promises to the consumers really helps. We have an entire department devoted to aquiring and recording utility easements. I never confront an angry consumer without a copy of the current easement. As a last resort I request a deputy sherriff to remain on premise until trimming and or removals are complete. It rarely comes to this. Consistant trimming and removals breed compliant consumers. If you treat one pissed off guy differently, the rest will want the same.


----------



## kmoose (Feb 24, 2006)

clearance said:


> Moose, maybe I came on a little strong, saw the word conslutant, flipped me out. Hope you ask the guys that actually do the work for thier opinions. I really got fed up with all the people that think they can have an omellette without anyone breaking eggs for them, and the utility that would kiss thier ass. My view is this safety#1, powerline #2, trees #3 By all means trim properly, when in doubt take it out, no exceptions. Good luck, hope your program works well.


No heat here, I've been where you are and am still cleaning up messes created over the last 50 years. Good management that does'nt throw you to the wolves is a good feeling and I enjoy coming to work in the morning.
Safety is #1 with our bunch too. Just yesterday I got a frantic call from one of my general formen. One of his guys hurt his knee climbing up on a chipper to clean the shoot. It is the foremans first lost time injured employee in 8 years. He had no idea who to call or where to take the guy.


----------



## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Moose, I made my last post before I saw your last post. B.C.Hydro has a very good reputation wordwide in many aspects and has some very good people working there, just the utility treeguys get the short end of the stick. They give out tree coupons, grind stumps, try hard to make people happy, just not the guys that do the work. There are no linemen here they are callled powerline techs, very p.c. also. They have ISA arborists, like all the veg managers for example, thier talk would sound exactly like yours, its all good. They check out all the work before and after themselves. It is the constant jew attitude for want of a better word, and the slick p.r. b.s. that gets me. Here is an unforgivable example; the bid form says "the lowest bid not necessarily accepted" o.k. how about on a hazard tree removal contract? Those trees, some dead, some dying and some stone cold dead should be cut down asap right? What if you think the low bid is to high, would you wait for a year to retender it/modify it? A year later those trees are better and safer to remove, right? Anyways, I quit my utility job now I work in the bush away from the freaks, powerlines and all the variuos b.s..


----------



## kmoose (Feb 24, 2006)

There is allotting of factors down in Florida that make each of our situations different. I agree that the danger trees might get swept under the rug with a unit bid contract more often if $$ was the rule of law. Fortunately, I have been given a substantial budget for removal of trees out of the cycle. I have 8 hourly crews that are used exclusively for capital work and to be my personal danger tree army. If there is a tree that poses an immediate threat by the oncoming hurricane season or the consumer simply has been difficult to work with but for the moment wants the tree removed, my "A" team crew springs into action in usually less than 12 hours. These practices have been very successful due to recent hurricanes and county mandates to remove trees that "may" cause outages and or evacuation route blockages. 
Nick, sorry about derailing your thread. I'm just a newbie to this board but utility arboriculture is my game. I feel my profession kind of makes me the "retarded uncle" that nobody talks about at the arborist family picnics. Maybe the administrators could create a "Utility Arborist or Vegetation Management" section to post on........Hint, Hint  There might be more of us here than you would think.


----------



## clearance (Feb 24, 2006)

Moose, that post is funny "retarded uncle", utility is nothing to be ashamed of, it is the only treework that has to be done. Everyone that complains uses power to do it, power utility guys keep on. You have an awesome set up, 8 teams wow. You don't let a problem/questionable tree live for too long, you nuke it quick, thats the way in should be.


----------



## Nickrosis (Feb 27, 2006)

Haha, well you two tried to keep me in loop by alluding to me in most of your posts.  Good idea about a forum for you guys, since clearance and others seem to be chafing at the bit on the topic, bringing it up whenever possible!

I've talked to BC Hydro executives in the last year, and I did hear the things that clearance was repeating. Now to see for myself sometime...

*An update...*
I have my plane ticket to visit a company next week, so I'm looking forward to that. Hopefully I can set up at least one more before the season takes off. Man, I love my job! I've cruised around the globe a lot this year with 15 flights in 9 weeks.  I'm a very blessed guy!

My highlights lately have come from some great recruiting experiences with students in the last couple of days.


----------



## MEDGE1 (Mar 3, 2006)

*safety first*

Hi clearance, am new to this site and working in the UK, just like to say that i have to agree with priorities, definitely safety first, those lines hurt! Contracts and $ always end up meaning lines before trees, even if it doesn't quite sit right, a lot of the line work I did wouldve been better cleared and replanted rather than pruned and I cant say i always went home proud of my work keep clear of the buzzin stuff!


----------



## doggonetrees (Mar 6, 2006)

Have you seen the limb tiger or girraffe trimmers, Clearance? Talk about walled back trees. We would have to tell the consumer either power or trees. They would be given a sheet on right-of -way clearing proceedures, and have info in a newsletter- but still throw a fit if we were clearing the line. When we started spraying, the first couple of years working the kinks out of the system incured several thosands of dollars worth of trees being killed due to wind blowing the spray into adjacent trees. The linemans and cablemans handbook gives the proper methods of trimming " trouble" trees. We also had a company rep that would go out and explain to the consumer why the dead trees would have to come down to prevent power outages. Not so big an issue since Katrina. My first day on the job with the power company, the foreman had me cutting back and I was under the assumption that everything inside the 30 foot right of way had to go. Cut a bunch of Bradford pear and quince trees that we had to pay for. Lesson learned.


----------



## B-Edwards (Mar 7, 2006)

Moose are you a Shark wrestler?:jawdrop:


----------



## Nickrosis (Mar 11, 2006)

Trying to get this thread back on track thanks to the utility derailment...

I had a great opportunity this week to tour the company. I flew out and was treated very well - given an opportunity to look at everything and ask any question I wanted to ask. The employees gave me a lot of insights into the state of the company, and I think the 12 strategic questions that I asked were able to crack things open to see the strengths and weaknesses.

Coming back, I made a PowerPoint presentation to show my dad (my boss) and have something to show the crewleaders, maybe even a short bit to show everyone. 

The chance was a valuable one, and I know it will be useful in finding ways to improve our company while avoiding the pitfalls that that company has encountered. All in all, it highlighted the importance of having systems in place - not for the sake of having systems - to take care of both your customers and your people. I saw the effectiveness of their systems, but I felt the product too often was insensitive to the individual people. It's a difficult balance, and I feel at this point that we're not adequately meeting the people needs, and we're refocusing our efforts to correct that.

So...thank you to them!


----------



## arbor dad (Mar 31, 2006)

*An inside look at three companys*

My two cents on the subject Nickrosis...I have had the unique opportunity to see three company's in my 16 years in the green industry. I started my business after fishing in Alaska for a few years,bought some stuff and hit the ground running with little to no experience. I quickly learned I had a lot to learn and hung it up after a few years and joined a big tree service in Seattle where I took a back seat and became a humble student. For the next 12 years I soaked up all I could and silently observed what works and doesn't. I am grateful for all the experience but the "what not to do" was overwhelmingly ringing in my head and I never lost that drive to march to my own drum. A year and half ago I started my own company and took everything I didn't like about the business and applied the exact opposite to my company. The bottom line (in my opinion and the real short version) is :
1) Bend over backwards to please your clients
2) Quality,reliability and professionalism
3) Lead employees by example,treat them well and make them feel appreciated everyday. Encourage,teach, and reward..they are the back-bone of it all.
4) Stay small, keep it simple and never let quality control out of your grasp. Run the business don't let it run you.Time with your family cant be replaced.


----------



## trevmcrev (Apr 2, 2006)

Hi Nick
I'd love to hear more about this, very interesting, how did you approach them about it in the first place?
Could you give us a run down on the types of questions you asked, what you saw, and what you learned? How did they compare to yourself in terms of size/volume of work/turnover etc?
I tried expanding to 2 crews last year but scaled back to 1 after a number of difficulties ariseing from the growth. I want to go for it again, and have learned from my mistakes, but would like to know others experiences too.
Thanks 
Trev


----------



## Nickrosis (Apr 4, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> Hi Nick
> I'd love to hear more about this, very interesting, how did you approach them about it in the first place?


I have a PowerPoint that goes over all this. I'll edit out the company details and post it. If I forget, please remind me!


----------



## Koa Man (Apr 7, 2006)

I would look at Crawford Tree and Landscape Service. Seems like they are a good company with a very smart, although a bit nosy, point man who likes to thoroughly check out everything.

Nick,
Please provide me with your ssn, dob, full name and your mother's maiden name. I will take it from there.


----------



## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2006)

Koa Man said:


> Nick,
> Please provide me with your ssn, dob, full name and your mother's maiden name. I will take it from there.


I have it on a sheet of paper here, ready for you to pick up at any time. :greenchainsaw:


----------



## Koa Man (Apr 8, 2006)

OK, I'll get it from you at the Baltimore TCI Expo. You are going aren't you? You can also buy me and the wife dinner. I know a nice expensive seafood place on the Inner Harbor.


----------



## Nickrosis (Apr 8, 2006)

I'll be there, scoping out your company. Yeah, I spent a lot of money on food in Baltimore the last time, I'm sure it'll happen again.


----------



## Nickrosis (Apr 9, 2006)

Haven't forgotten about you, Trev.


----------



## trevmcrev (Apr 10, 2006)

Thanks Nick, just when you can.
Trev


----------



## kennertree (Apr 10, 2006)

*If i could look inside another company......*

It would have to be treeminator's company. Im curious how well those craftsman saws are working out for him.


----------



## Koa Man (Apr 10, 2006)

kennertree said:


> It would have to be treeminator's company. Im curious how well those craftsman saws are working out for him.


:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## trevmcrev (Apr 17, 2006)

Nickrosis said:


> Haven't forgotten about you, Trev.



Havent forgotten bout this thread either Nickopcorn: 
Trev


----------



## Toddppm (Apr 28, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> Havent forgotten bout this thread either Nickopcorn:
> Trev





Hey! Me too!


I'd like to look into a couple larger local companies here to see who and where they are networking to get their work and how they keep so many guys busy and still make a real profit.

The bigger companies listed are out of most of our leagues with the way they do business and I'd guess it's not something a smaller co. could replicate at all.


----------



## Nickrosis (May 1, 2006)

Toddppm said:


> Hey! Me too!
> 
> 
> I'd like to look into a couple larger local companies here to see who and where they are networking to get their work and how they keep so many guys busy and still make a real profit.
> ...


Aw, I wouldn't say that at all. It's about having systems and following them. It's much the same as a successful small business with bigger numbers, except it takes a lot more structure to handle it. Structure being something many small companies could benefit to adopt if they want to last and not be crushed by an OSHA audit or prolonged economic drought.


----------



## Toddppm (May 1, 2006)

What I mean is having dedicated salespeople and managers to do the handholding and follow up required to land the bigger jobs for commercial and municipal type work. Seems like those kinds of jobs will keep your guys making money when the regular work slows down.
I know I couldn't afford to pay someone for the time it would take to land those unless they are bringing in other work at the same time generating income.

Or maybe I could and I'm not thinking big enough?

Right now it's just me doing everything besides the work, I'm going to need a right hand man or woman very soon!

How's that powerpoint coming along?opcorn: If you don't mind?


----------



## Nickrosis (May 3, 2006)

In line after all these school projects.


----------



## Treeman14 (May 3, 2006)

Toddppm said:


> What I mean is having dedicated salespeople and managers to do the handholding and follow up required to land the bigger jobs for commercial and municipal type work. Seems like those kinds of jobs will keep your guys making money when the regular work slows down.
> I know I couldn't afford to pay someone for the time it would take to land those unless they are bringing in other work at the same time generating income.
> 
> Or maybe I could and I'm not thinking big enough?



I thought the same thing until I tried it beginning a few years ago. My salesman works on straight commission plus a weekly vehicle allowance. Basically, the more he sells, the more he makes. It's a good incentive and it's better than $5 per job.


----------



## alanarbor (May 3, 2006)

Toddppm said:


> What I mean is having dedicated salespeople and managers to do the handholding and follow up required to land the bigger jobs for commercial and municipal type work. Seems like those kinds of jobs will keep your guys making money when the regular work slows down.
> I know I couldn't afford to pay someone for the time it would take to land those unless they are bringing in other work at the same time generating income.



That's exactly what they would be doing! Usually sales are paid on commision, in some cases with a draw attached to keep the salespersons income from fluctuating too wildly.

Keep in mind they will be freeing up a LOT of YOUR time, which you can apply to other aspects of growing your business. If you get a really good sales guy you'll probably have to add on people to get all the work done.

The caveat to most municipal and commercial work is that it's very much a commodity, with the low bidder having a signifigant advantage. That's why a person dedicated to building relationships, can give you that competitive edge without you having to cut your own throat.


----------

