# New personal best today



## Huntaholic (Feb 16, 2022)

Up until today, the biggest red oak I ever cut had 2630ish bdft in it. Today I cut one that had 2704 in it. That's the logs I got to put on the truck. Unfortunately, which is often the case when cutting trees this big, I lost over 300 bdft in 3 logs of a fork when it hit the ground. So all told, this tree had over 3000 ft in it! 390xp with a 28 inch bar and I was really wishing for a 32'!


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## rwoods (Feb 16, 2022)

For us bdft challenged, what was the butt diameter and the length of the logs?

Ron


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## Huntaholic (Feb 17, 2022)

rwoods said:


> For us bdft challenged, what was the butt diameter and the length of the logs?
> 
> Ron


I didn't even think of posting those numbers, just assumed since it was forestry and logging, folks would know? I had to stump it higher than normal because I knew I didn't have enough bar to cut it low, but it was 5 ft across the stump, 4 main trunk logs, 3 10 footers and an 8 foot log.


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## rwoods (Feb 17, 2022)

Thanks. I am just a trespasser here but like the folks and I try to visualize what is being said.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Feb 17, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> I didn't even think of posting those numbers, just assumed since it was forestry and logging, folks would know? I had to stump it higher than normal because I knew I didn't have enough bar to cut it low, but it was 5 ft across the stump, 4 main trunk logs, 3 10 footers and an 8 foot log.


Lotsa folks on here not in the biz as it were, and those that are not all of us spreckin ze same timber talk as it were lol. Doyle scale vs Scribner vs Int vw Metric vs tonnage vs gross volume etc etc etc

5'er is pretty skookum though


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## Huntaholic (Feb 17, 2022)

Doyle is the scale used anywhere around here. Honestly, its the only way Ive ever sold logs with the exception of cedar, which is measured on a different scale or sold by weight. 
Using a doyle log rule looks like Chinese arithmetic to the uneducated but its pretty simple once you figure it out. LOL which brings up a fond memory of my Dad, God rest his soul. Scalers at the sawmills sometimes are notorious for slipping the stick or shorting the logger on his measurements. I heard my Dad tell a mill foreman once that there would be more log scalers in hell than any other group and every one of them would be running around trying to shortchange the devil when measuring his "penis". Only he didn't say "penis".


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## northmanlogging (Feb 17, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> Doyle is the scale used anywhere around here. Honestly, its the only way Ive ever sold logs with the exception of cedar, which is measured on a different scale or sold by weight.
> Using a doyle log rule looks like Chinese arithmetic to the uneducated but its pretty simple once you figure it out. LOL which brings up a fond memory of my Dad, God rest his soul. Scalers at the sawmills sometimes are notorious for slipping the stick or shorting the logger on his measurements. I heard my Dad tell a mill foreman once that there would be more log scalers in hell than any other group and every one of them would be running around trying to shortchange the devil when measuring his "penis". Only he didn't say "penis".


Pretty sure every scaler in the world has a surgically lengthened thumb (part of the union admission...)
Its all Scribner dec. C out here, they are very similar but Scrbner is more better for long logs (or at least thats what they claim...)

Either way its never as much as it should be.

If you ever find yourself dealing with a less then "accurate" scaler, scale them all yourself and write down what you get on the ends of each log... you may find that the scale miraculously starts matching up a little closer.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 18, 2022)

New England is all International scale. It‘s said to be the closest to actual amount sawn if everything is cut into 1 inch boards. Dimension stock and beams, not so much. It allows for 1/4 inch kerf for the saw and a 4 inch face. For a while Maine used the “ Bangor Rule “ which was international but used a 1/8 kerf allowance for band saws. Being as theres more small diameter logs going into the stud mills there it made for a better check to the logger. It doesn’t sound like much but that extra 1/8 makes a big difference. I haven’t heard of anybody up there using it for years now.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 18, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> Pretty sure every scaler in the world has a surgically lengthened thumb (part of the union admission...)
> Its all Scribner dec. C out here, they are very similar but Scrbner is more better for long logs (or at least thats what they claim...)
> 
> Either way its never as much as it should be.
> ...


That brings back even more found memories of my Dad! Way back in the late 80s-early 90s the mills started paying a "veneer" grade for red oak. We sent a load into the mill and my Dad told the truck driver to tell the scaler that at least 4 of those logs would veneer. 2nd load, driver came back and said the scaler put them in veneer. 3rd load, the truck driver came back and said the scaler said he was knocking those logs down a grade. My Dad told us to sharpen a saw and fill it up with gas. He took it and followed the truck in with the 4th load that day. When he got there those 4 red oak logs were still laying out separated from the rest. He got out of the truck, grabbed the saw and started cutting them up into 20 INCH SECTIONS! Scaler came running over telling him he couldn't do that, He, not so politely, told the scaler to go fornicate himself, those logs were still ours and he would cut them into firewood before he let a &^(&*^(&^&(^&^&^ steal them and that's exactly what he did! The funniest part is, the mill owner actually made the scaler put them BACK in veneer grade and pay us for them even though they were firewood now. We never had any more problems getting logs graded correctly at that mill after that.


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## rwoods (Feb 18, 2022)

I sold a veneer grade red oak log once in that time frame. $800 to $1100, I don’t remember.. Logger who transported it got 50% or 60%, the broker and I split the remainder.
Since then I have cut many into firewood as they weren’t mine to sell.

Ron


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## Oletrapper (Feb 19, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> Up until today, the biggest red oak I ever cut had 2630ish bdft in it. Today I cut one that had 2704 in it. That's the logs I got to put on the truck. Unfortunately, which is often the case when cutting trees this big, I lost over 300 bdft in 3 logs of a fork when it hit the ground. So all told, this tree had over 3000 ft in it! 390xp with a 28 inch bar and I was really wishing for a 32'!


The stores are open. Go buy a 32". Just saying.  lol OT


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## CJ1 (Feb 19, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> Pretty sure every scaler in the world has a surgically lengthened thumb (part of the union admission...)
> Its all Scribner dec. C out here, they are very similar but Scrbner is more better for long logs (or at least thats what they claim...)
> 
> Either way its never as much as it should be.
> ...


Agreed. Something else we always did was put a red dot on the end signifying we scaled them with no number but that would make the buyer really think about what he/she was doing. Believe it or not most of the time their scale was better numbers than ours. Our normal buyers never even looked at our scale, they just paid us as they knew we were honest. You learned who was crooked real fast and did not deal with them. Word spread fast also! Cj


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## Huntaholic (Feb 19, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> Agreed. Something else we always did was put a red dot on the end signifying we scaled them with no number but that would make the buyer really think about what he/she was doing. Believe it or not most of the time their scale was better numbers than ours. Our normal buyers never even looked at our scale, they just paid us as they knew we were honest. You learned who was crooked real fast and did not deal with them. Word spread fast also! Cj


When I measure a load or even a log, I give them the benefit of the doubt and I take it the least way, inside both barks. A Doyle scale has a hook on it for a reason, its designed to give a bark and take a bark. ALMOST none of the mill scalers will use the hook though. 
I had out about 20,000 feet of veneer walnut once, all spread out and full length trees. I measured that whole pile of logs myself and totaled up what I figured was there in footage. I had 5 different buyers come give me bids on the pile, some spent as many as 4 hours figuring and quoting. After one guy measured them, he asked me what I came up with and I told him. His measurement and mine was only 39 feet apart. LOL. Hew didn't get them, he was 2nd high bidder I think. The guy that spent the longest lowballed the most, with there being 20000 dollars between high and low bidder! 
A few weeks later I had out about that many more logs and the one guy pulled up, asked me what I measured them for and gave me a bid without scaling a log. He still came in 2nd, but he was a strong bidder!


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## slowp (Feb 19, 2022)

Scribner is more better for the buyer when long logs are brought in. That's why in the bad old days of logging the big punkins, mills wanted the butt log to be 40 feet. Because the scaling cylinder diameter was what the small end diameter was, the mills got some free wood out of it.

There is a manual for Idaho Scalers on line and it is an excellent reference for scaling out west, or if you are interested in scaling. I think the online version even has pictures. I have a hard copy that we were required to buy for school and it has come in handy at times.

https://ibsp.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2018/06/IdahoLogScalingManual-online.pdf

Note to self: Never get a higher score than the boys on a scaling utilization test. They go into shock and then are quite huffy and talk about lucky guesses and stuff, which it was not.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 19, 2022)

slowp said:


> Scribner is more better for the buyer when long logs are brought in. That's why in the bad old days of logging the big punkins, mills wanted the butt log to be 40 feet. Because the scaling cylinder diameter was what the small end diameter was, the mills got some free wood out of it.
> 
> There is a manual for Idaho Scalers on line and it is an excellent reference for scaling out west, or if you are interested in scaling. I think the online version even has pictures. I have a hard copy that we were required to buy for school and it has come in handy at times.


I don't expect to ever be in the business out west unfortunately and theres no way I can convert mills around here to change scales. UNLESS somebody wants to give me a job out there cutting giant redwoods! Id drive all the way back to commifornia just to get to cut a couple of those trees!


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## northmanlogging (Feb 19, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> Agreed. Something else we always did was put a red dot on the end signifying we scaled them with no number but that would make the buyer really think about what he/she was doing. Believe it or not most of the time their scale was better numbers than ours. Our normal buyers never even looked at our scale, they just paid us as they knew we were honest. You learned who was crooked real fast and did not deal with them. Word spread fast also! Cj


FYI, Red dots around here signify DNR owned wood... so if you don't have a DNR contract, you aint getting paid, better to use some other color. 


Huntaholic said:


> I don't expect to ever be in the business out west unfortunately and theres no way I can convert mills around here to change scales. UNLESS somebody wants to give me a job out there cutting giant redwoods! Id drive all the way back to commifornia just to get to cut a couple of those trees!


meh, if you've cut cedar its not a whole lot different, thicker bark and itchy too... 

Falling big tall timber is a kick in the pants though. Beats the **** out of scrubby hardwoods all day everyday.


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## SweetMK (Feb 19, 2022)

How much should the landowner receive for this type load of logs?? (ballpark, you know you can guess better than a landowner!!)







or this one??






I know there are variables,, but, there must be a ballpark number,,??


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## northmanlogging (Feb 19, 2022)

SweetMK said:


> How much should the landowner receive for this type load of logs?? (ballpark, you know you can guess better than a landowner!!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


to be completely honest, there are simply too many variables, species, actual scale, current log prices, defect, lengths, all of it has an effect, and combined it becomes too much to guess value alone. 

guys familiar with that type of truck, and the area can give you a ball park of volume on the truck, in which I would hazard a guess of around 4-5000 bf, but I use Scribner, where that loads from they likely use Doyle and will do slightly better on shorter logs so as high as maybe 6000bf, From there you can check current log prices and do the math but remember log prices change weekly/monthly or at worst daily so today they could be worth lots of money, tomorrow could be you have to pay the truck out of pocket to get rid of them.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 20, 2022)

1st load, about 5500 ft, total price of around $4200
2nd load, about 4200 ft, total price of around $3600 
How close am I? landowner would get half of each loads price.


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## SweetMK (Feb 20, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> 1st load, about 5500 ft, total price of around $4200
> 2nd load, about 4200 ft, total price of around $3600
> How close am I? landowner would get half of each loads price.


That is amazing,, I never had a price per load before,,
I went back and checked,, (we actually have a picture of EVERY load that went out)
I ended up averaging $1875 per load of logs,,, in my pocket
So, according to that, and your estimate,, we did pretty good,, I guess,,,
I know we were happy to get the $$,,,


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## Huntaholic (Feb 20, 2022)

SweetMK said:


> That is amazing,, I never had a price per load before,,
> I went back and checked,, (we actually have a picture of EVERY load that went out)
> I ended up averaging $1875 per load of logs,,, in my pocket
> So, according to that, and your estimate,, we did pretty good,, I guess,,,
> I know we were happy to get the $$,,,


LOL I guess I didn't do too bad just looking at a picture. Im a 3rd generation logger and this is all Ive ever done.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 20, 2022)

What exactly did you value those rotten butts at?


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## Huntaholic (Feb 20, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> What exactly did you value those rotten butts at?


You've got college educated idiots that scale and try to measure volume in every single log or tree on a job, that's not me. DBH, Biltmore, etc.... its all just ******** to be honest with you, something to make them think they didn't waste 4 or more years of their life getting book learned on how to be in the forestry business. Again, that's not me. I honestly didn't value those "rotten butts" one way or the other. Call it a wild assed guess, luck, whatever, I call it EXPERIENCE. In all the years Ive done this, Ive yet to miss a quote on a tract of timber. I walk it, count the trees, figure how many it will take on average to make a load, know what that load should average, and give you an estimate. I wont miss it. The next guy may blow smoke up your ass to get the job and end up missing his quote, I wont. 
I cut a tract once that took me 2 years to trade for. Owner wanted 80k his part, I told him it wouldn't do it. I told him 60k. He finally said to cut it, but he thought it would do at least 70K. Again, I told him it would do 60k. It ended up cutting him 61500K. I missed that job by 1500 bucks. Show me an educated idiot that can get that close and I will buy you and your whole family dinner anywhere you want to go.


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## slowp (Feb 21, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> You've got college educated idiots that scale and try to measure volume in every single log or tree on a job, that's not me. DBH, Biltmore, etc.... its all just ******** to be honest with you, something to make them think they didn't waste 4 or more years of their life getting book learned on how to be in the forestry business. Again, that's not me. I honestly didn't value those "rotten butts" one way or the other. Call it a wild assed guess, luck, whatever, I call it EXPERIENCE. In all the years Ive done this, Ive yet to miss a quote on a tract of timber. I walk it, count the trees, figure how many it will take on average to make a load, know what that load should average, and give you an estimate. I wont miss it. The next guy may blow smoke up your ass to get the job and end up missing his quote, I wont.
> I cut a tract once that took me 2 years to trade for. Owner wanted 80k his part, I told him it wouldn't do it. I told him 60k. He finally said to cut it, but he thought it would do at least 70K. Again, I told him it would do 60k. It ended up cutting him 61500K. I missed that job by 1500 bucks. Show me an educated idiot that can get that close and I will buy you and your whole family dinner anywhere you want to go.


Uh, some of us college educated "idiots" had no way of getting to be so knowledgeable so easily as you. We had to go to school to get "experience" and then that helped us get work in order to get experienced.  For instance, my school, which was a 2 year degree school, got us tree planting work on weekends in the spring. Then they also taught us and made some contacts so we could get employed in the forestry field. Did you start out knowing everything? Forestry is a mix of keeping yourself educated and current with science and techniques. 

A college education is not a bad thing. I couldn't afford a 4 year one, but often wished I could. There's more to forestry than buying and selling timber-- A lot more. 

I'd never tell somebody what their logs are worth via a picture on the internet. Like Northman said, the market varies depending on location--those logs can be worthless tomorrow (saw that happen in 2008), locales have different demands, and we are all living where species are different. Too many variables. I'm also not a log buyer, never have been so wouldn't know in the first place. Other questions? What is the logging cost going to be? Trucking costs? Pull out a crystal ball and you might hit right on, especially from simply viewing a picture of a loaded log truck in an unknown location.

And, work done by college educated idiots is more likely to make an impact in court, should you be sued for smashing an endangered species or having to address such a threat in a required logging plan. I have a friend who is becoming more educated in forestry through working with foresters on their tree farm plans, and getting experience in that way. We should never seriously disapprove of education and we need to keep educating ourselves until we die. 

Value these logs.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 21, 2022)

slowp said:


> Uh, some of us college educated "idiots" had no way of getting to be so knowledgeable so easily as you. We had to go to school to get "experience" and then that helped us get work in order to get experienced. For instance, my school, which was a 2 year degree school, got us tree planting work on weekends in the spring. Then they also taught us and made some contacts so we could get employed in the forestry field. Did you start out knowing everything? Forestry is a mix of keeping yourself educated and current with science and techniques.
> 
> A college education is not a bad thing. I couldn't afford a 4 year one, but often wished I could. There's more to forestry than buying and selling timber-- A lot more.
> 
> ...


Touch a nerve did I? I never before and Im not now, claiming to "know everything" as you put it. The timber business is one of the most localized businesses there is. What logs are worth, methods of harvest, type of operation, prices, etc... vary greatly from one region to the next. 
I didn't "value" his logs as you put it, he asked for a GUESS and I gave him one. As it turns out, looks like I was pretty damned close. Does that hurt your feelings that I know what the markets are around here? ITS MY FRIGGING JOB AND MY LIVELYHOOD TO KNOW THAT. Now show us on the doll where the mean old logger touched you. 
As far as guessing what the load you posted is worth, I HAVE NO IDEA. That's NOT the type of stuff we cut around here and if you tell me its worth $20K or $200, I have no idea. 
You ever watched Tombstone? Where Ike tells Wyatt "law don't go round here". Well that pretty much sums it up. Protected species? LMAO! I hear tell theres some speckled birds that hunt at night out west that you need to go hand feed. I DO NOT even bother with government jobs or bids. Ive got more work than I can possibly get to without dealing with bureaucracy or ********. 
Im sure all of that will change eventually and it will get ****ed up around here like it is in commiefornia. I wont be around to see that. My kids, also loggers, may have to deal with it, but I wont.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 21, 2022)

Its good to know the rest of the folks around here knew what I was talking about when I posed my question. Hard to see how some folks keep their feet on the ground when they’re so full of hot air.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 21, 2022)

slowp said:


> Uh, some of us college educated "idiots" had no way of getting to be so knowledgeable so easily as you. We had to go to school to get "experience" and then that helped us get work in order to get experienced. For instance, my school, which was a 2 year degree school, got us tree planting work on weekends in the spring. Then they also taught us and made some contacts so we could get employed in the forestry field. Did you start out knowing everything? Forestry is a mix of keeping yourself educated and current with science and techniques.
> 
> A college education is not a bad thing. I couldn't afford a 4 year one, but often wished I could. There's more to forestry than buying and selling timber-- A lot more.
> 
> ...


4500 bf? maybe 5500 depends on length

over the sumer value was 1000-1500 ish

Right now 4000-5000 maybe more

The difference a few months makes and a couple feet of snow.

Not to mention a bunch of folks retiring and getting out of the business (whos kids want nothing to do with cause daddy lied about how hard the work was etc)

It is hard work, but its certainly more fun then standing on concrete 12 hours a day or punching keys on a keyboard and smooshing with the jerks in pink button downs...


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## Huntaholic (Feb 21, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> Its good to know the rest of the folks around here knew what I was talking about when I posed my question. Hard to see how some folks keep their feet on the ground when they’re so full of hot air.


Only question I saw you posed was about the value of those rotten butts. I don't really see any BAD rotten butts on those 2 loads, fact of the matter is most of what youre calling rotten butts really isn't. Theres only 2 logs on there that are questionable and the rott? is dead center of the log, which normally goes into "cants" anyway so I didn't deduct anything because of it.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 21, 2022)

*Anybody whose worn out more than 1 saw cutting hardwood knows bucking is where the money is. Anybody stupid enough to put rotten butts in the log pile isn’t smart enough to take the time to buck for grade. *
*How do you know how far the rot extends? Could be 2 ft, or 8 ft. Either way the grader in the yard is going to ding that log so hard its going to be pulp. That was my point on value. You can’t set value without scaling and grading each log. Could be veneer or it could be pallet because of a bucking mistake . Next comes how badly the mill needs the wood. Grade often runs with market. In a soft market you might be hard pressed to cut a veneer log. In a hot market I’ve had logs scaled 2 grades up because the mill really needed wood. 
As for your guess? Volume? Pretty darn good. Value? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.*


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## Huntaholic (Feb 21, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> *Anybody whose worn out more than 1 saw cutting hardwood knows bucking is where the money is. Anybody stupid enough to put rotten butts in the log pile isn’t smart enough to take the time to buck for grade. *
> *How do you know how far the rot extends? Could be 2 ft, or 8 ft. Either way the grader in the yard is going to ding that log so hard its going to be pulp. *


I think we are both getting way out of our wheelhouse trying to see who can piss the farthest, BUT without being able to tell for sure, those butts look like hard maple, and if so, that rot doesn't extend much past a foot or so, and AGAIN, that heart wood part GENERALLY goes into cants. I can tell you one thing, IT WILL NOT go into pulpwood around here, pallet grade maybe, but there ISNT a pulpwood grade in my part of the world. 
Seriously dude, get over it! I don't expect to come into your world and tell you **** from shinola shoe polish, the same professional courtesy could be expected in return.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 21, 2022)

You’re leaking that hot air I referred to earlier. “Look like,” and “ if thats so”. Guesses. Like i said, you cant value a hardwood log without being next to it and rolling it over and seeing both ends.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 21, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> You’re leaking that hot air I referred to earlier. “Look like,” and “ if thats so”. Guesses. Like i said, you cant value a hardwood log without being next to it and rolling it over and seeing both ends.


If you've done as much of this as you lead us to believe you have, have you EVER seen 2 scalers that came up with the exact same measurement AND grade? Think carefully before you answer. Ive seen a 30,000 ft pile of logs have as much as 4000 ft and $13000 difference in bids. Black walnut, if that makes any difference to you in your answer. If you want to start a pissing match thread, please feel free to start your own and stop scent marking mine.


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## catbuster (Feb 21, 2022)

I’m proud to be a college educated ”idiot”. It’s taken me a long way in this world. Upshot is, I know how to use scales, and I don’t have to if I don’t want to.

I can design logging roads that are actually meant to go a certain way, work without having to be fixed during construction, and will be around for a long, long time. But, I’m an idiot.

I can survey my own ground to set boundary markers and verify what’s what with a lot of precision. Like, 3” each side of a boundary if I use GPS or .01’ with a total station.

I can also quote a job, and not just in logging. Not from “experience,” but from running the numbers. All of them. Experience is what I use for a gut check.

I’m a ****ing engineer, first and foremost, followed closely by being a superintendent, and I’ve done my fair share of project management on huge projects. One that has spent over half his life working in the field, in some of the nastiest conditions possible from 30’ underground to 300’ in the air.

And yet education is bad and prevents people from having some sort of practical ability or train of thought. Yup, I’m an idiot.


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## Parkerpusher (Feb 21, 2022)

I really really liked this thread. Until, you know, I didn’t.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 21, 2022)

Parkerpusher said:


> I really really liked this thread. Until, you know, I didn’t.


Welcome to AS. 

FYI the Ignore function is top notch here, and makes for some of the comments comically lopsided, don't let the "hardasses" dissuade you, theres a bunch of good folks here with a lot of good knowledge. Just have to weed through the nutters a little bit.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 22, 2022)

catbuster said:


> I’m proud to be a college educated ”idiot”. It’s taken me a long way in this world. Upshot is, I know how to use scales, and I don’t have to if I don’t want to.
> 
> I can design logging roads that are actually meant to go a certain way, work without having to be fixed during construction, and will be around for a long, long time. But, I’m an idiot.
> 
> ...


Maybe the point was missed, if so, I will try to make it again. My experiences with forestry degrees are that they barely know a conifer from a deciduous tree, no real clue as to value, harvest plans that are ludicrous at best, and THEY CHARGE THE LANDOWNER to do it. I cut a tract once for a lady from California that had paid to have all that done, right down to a dollar amount she should get. It was the most useless crap Ive ever seen. I told her if she wanted it cut, I would cut it my way, and that she wasted $3000 bucks. I cut it, she got almost twice as much as the "cruise", and she was left with good young marketable timber. In fact its ready to cut again, since it was about 25 years ago when this happened. 
Do you think that education made you an operator? A road builder? It didn't. Ive been sitting on a machine since I was 10 years old, built roads when I was 20 that are still there and still usable today, almost 40 years later. 
Does it take a degree to be able to use a GPS? NO. If your property has a good survey recorded, I can walk your property line just fine. If it hasn't been, then you as the landowner are going to have to survey it before I cut your timber. 
My whole point was that having a degree doesn't make you any better, any more accurate, any more skilled than the rest of us. While you were beating the books, we were beating the bush and getting hands on experience.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 22, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> If you've done as much of this as you lead us to believe you have, have you EVER seen 2 scalers that came up with the exact same measurement AND grade? Think carefully before you answer. Ive seen a 30,000 ft pile of logs have as much as 4000 ft and $13000 difference in bids. Black walnut, if that makes any difference to you in your answer. If you want to start a pissing match thread, please feel free to start your own and stop scent marking mine.


None of those scalers made tally and grade from 100 ft away, let alone a photograph. Thats the ridiculousness of your posts.


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## Jhenderson (Feb 22, 2022)

catbuster said:


> I’m proud to be a college educated ”idiot”. It’s taken me a long way in this world. Upshot is, I know how to use scales, and I don’t have to if I don’t want to.
> 
> I can design logging roads that are actually meant to go a certain way, work without having to be fixed during construction, and will be around for a long, long time. But, I’m an idiot.
> 
> ...


Inferiority complexes have numerous ways of being displayed. One of the most common is attacking, much like a fearful dog bites.


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## slowp (Feb 22, 2022)

Hey catbuster! I went to OSU's no longer offered Forest Engineering short course. It was 10 weeks of cramming info and learning the basics of road design and logging system planning. It helped in the job competitive bit, and was pretty interesting.

There is a formula for everything--even calculating guyline tension by the time it takes a hammer blow on the lines to reverberate up and down. Not very useful, but interesting and forgotten right away. However, we did go out and do a splice, rigged up a small yarder and intermediate support, and set chokers until our support trees began failing then it was class over for the day.

Students came from all over the world to take that course. 

Most loggers I've worked with don't want their kids to be loggers. It's too dangerous and their home life is pretty shot from the long hours keeping equipment maintained and running. I've had more than one rigging guy ask how he could have my job and wishing he could. 

Those logs in the picture probably scaled out to 4.8mbf. That is the average load for the area. Logging costs were a bit higher as it was yarder ground, not skidder and some of the mills were far away. The truck was in the midst of a shovel assist to get it up the spur road and onto the main road. That adds cost. They brought out a skidder to pull loaded trucks up. That adds cost. The sale wasn't appraised for that cost, which means no adjustment was made in the package so buyer beware. That was also the sale where an intermediate support, also not appraised for, had to be used to get one end suspension. That adds to the logging cost, which would affect the profit margin.

As for long butting? Pretty much just for sweep in second growth timber. That's done by the faller, and the long butt left in the woods.

I recommended a logger to a friend. They were working nearby and moved in after finishing on their first job. That way, a big cost in that area--moving in and moving out, was cut in half. They did a beautiful job and were very easy and patient to work with, as she had lots of questions, and they had lots of suggestions.

Oh, and I know some boys who have been running equipment for their dad since they could reach the pedals. Dad, who had to drop out of high school, insisted that his boys get a college education. They did. They have great careers but could always go back to running equipment if they have to.


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## slowp (Feb 22, 2022)

This makes for some spendy logging--yarding downhill. 


A beautiful falling job.


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## rwoods (Feb 22, 2022)

My hat is off to all of you, whether formally educated or not, making a living (or retired from) doing something you are good at and enjoyed. That type of career is a blessing that many (probably most) don't have. Don't get me wrong, I know none of your careers is a cake walk. And that it took a lot of hard work and perseverance to get where you are. 

I thought about my friend, NM, this weekend as my cutting buddy and I spent the day wrenching instead of cutting - 7 hours just to replace a bypass hose on the truck that some squirrel thought was tasty, followed by an hour trying in vain to start the dozer so we could use it to help get the truck up the hill. Not one stick of firewood cut or moved. I thought about most of you this week when I learned the forecast is calling for up to 5" of rain which loosely translated means - I will be repairing the dozer in the rain and even after its fixed the truck will still be at the bottom of the hill. As a volunteer I find inspiration in knowing there are folks like each of you that encounter similar problems regularly during the course of a chosen career and press on every workday regardless. 

Let's not let our differences in backgrounds, localities and personalities distract from the good found here. I hear some saws in the background so I will get off my perch before it is taken out from under me.

Ron


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## Huntaholic (Feb 22, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> Inferiority complexes have numerous ways of being displayed. One of the most common is attacking, much like a fearful dog bites.


Ummm youre the one who started attacking, not me. Whatever it was that pulled your panties into your crack isn't my problem. It has been my experience and is also my OPINION that having a degree doesn't make you one tiny bit better or smarter than somebody who has done this stuff all their life. To be honest, yeah it chaps my arse that those people charge people for their OPINION on how to harvest their timber. But, you know what they say, those that can, DO, those that cant, try to tell other people HOW. At the end of the day, when its all said and done, how bad did I miss those loads? When you ask me something that's in my wheelhouse, ITS MY FU***** JOB to know.
Tell ya what I will do, IF its not too wet to get across the creek to the logyard, I will post you a picture of a load of logs tomorrow and my "squirrel finding a nut" guess as to whats on it and what it will bring and you do the same. Then come Friday I will post the load ticket for that load and we will all see how good you are.
Like somebody else said, this thread was fun, until it wasn't. I started it just to talk about ONE damned good tree, and maybe get some conversation started along those lines and this is what it has evolved into. The problem with me, is I don't have any quit in me. When you start something, whether on the net or in person, it has to come to a resolution. Stomp my arse, prove me wrong, apologize if in the wrong or accept my apology if I was in the wrong. Its just that simple. Prove me wrong and I will apologize profusely, get proven wrong and you only have to admit it once. If not, that's when that other stuff comes into play.
HOPE YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!


rwoods said:


> My hat is off to all of you, whether formally educated or not, making a living (or retired from) doing something you are good at and enjoyed. That type of career is a blessing that many (probably most) don't have. Don't get me wrong, I know none of your careers is a cake walk. And that it took a lot of hard work and perseverance to get where you are.
> 
> I thought about my friend, NM, this weekend as my cutting buddy and I spent the day wrenching instead of cutting - 7 hours just to replace a bypass hose on the truck that some squirrel thought was tasty, followed by an hour trying in vain to start the dozer so we could use it to help get the truck up the hill. Not one stick of firewood cut or moved. I thought about most of you this week when I learned the forecast is calling for up to 5" of rain which loosely translated means - I will be repairing the dozer in the rain and even after its fixed the truck will still be at the bottom of the hill. As a volunteer I find inspiration in knowing there are folks like each of you that encounter similar problems regularly during the course of a chosen career and press on every workday regardless.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 110%! Id love to see this thread get back on track! I feel like I tried to steer it in that direction but every time I do, somebody smarts off again. Like I just posted, the problem with me is that I don't quit, most real loggers don't, its just the way we are wired. If we quit when things got hard or something broke down, we wouldn't be who we are. Maybe its the sawdust in our veins from all the times we have bled doing this job, maybe its just the personality type, I don't know, all I know is we are too stubborn to quit or give up.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 22, 2022)

rwoods said:


> My hat is off to all of you, whether formally educated or not, making a living (or retired from) doing something you are good at and enjoyed. That type of career is a blessing that many (probably most) don't have. Don't get me wrong, I know none of your careers is a cake walk. And that it took a lot of hard work and perseverance to get where you are.
> 
> I thought about my friend, NM, this weekend as my cutting buddy and I spent the day wrenching instead of cutting - 7 hours just to replace a bypass hose on the truck that some squirrel thought was tasty, followed by an hour trying in vain to start the dozer so we could use it to help get the truck up the hill. Not one stick of firewood cut or moved. I thought about most of you this week when I learned the forecast is calling for up to 5" of rain which loosely translated means - I will be repairing the dozer in the rain and even after its fixed the truck will still be at the bottom of the hill. As a volunteer I find inspiration in knowing there are folks like each of you that encounter similar problems regularly during the course of a chosen career and press on every workday regardless.
> 
> ...


meh, its snowing round here today, so im out with the war dept, luckily at the moment everything that can be running is, the dumb truck needs a motor, so it waiting on parts.

but i can afford a day to screw off... so im gonna do it


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## Jhenderson (Feb 22, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> Ummm youre the one who started attacking, not me. Whatever it was that pulled your panties into your crack isn't my problem. It has been my experience and is also my OPINION that having a degree doesn't make you one tiny bit better or smarter than somebody who has done this stuff all their life. To be honest, yeah it chaps my arse that those people charge people for their OPINION on how to harvest their timber. But, you know what they say, those that can, DO, those that cant, try to tell other people HOW. At the end of the day, when its all said and done, how bad did I miss those loads? When you ask me something that's in my wheelhouse, ITS MY FU***** JOB to know.
> Tell ya what I will do, IF its not too wet to get across the creek to the logyard, I will post you a picture of a load of logs tomorrow and my "squirrel finding a nut" guess as to whats on it and what it will bring and you do the same. Then come Friday I will post the load ticket for that load and we will all see how good you are.
> Like somebody else said, this thread was fun, until it wasn't. I started it just to talk about ONE damned good tree, and maybe get some conversation started along those lines and this is what it has evolved into. The problem with me, is I don't have any quit in me. When you start something, whether on the net or in person, it has to come to a resolution. Stomp my arse, prove me wrong, apologize if in the wrong or accept my apology if I was in the wrong. Its just that simple. Prove me wrong and I will apologize profusely, get proven wrong and you only have to admit it once. If not, that's when that other stuff comes into play.
> HOPE YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY!
> ...


I was refering to your continual attacks on university graduates. It shows you fear/ shame of your lack of higher education. The same way a dog attacks out of fear. But you knew that. Your comment was simply a way to ignore the facts about log buyers tally from a picture.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 22, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> I was refering to your continual attacks on university graduates. It shows you fear/ shame of your lack of higher education. The same way a dog attacks out of fear. But you knew that. Your comment was simply a way to ignore the facts about log buyers tally from a picture.


How do you figure that? I hit the mark on what the loads brought better than you or anybody else even tried. I HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO SHAME OR FEAR for my "lack of higher education" as you so put it. You aren't the first ******* to try to look down his nose because you invested years of your life in a piece of paper. Grab your chainsaw and come on, I will give you a job. You will have to earn that days pay though. I aint paying you for what you think you know, Im paying you for what you can actually do. 
Reminds me of another papered idiot I dealt with years ago. She wanted a self watering system put in for her thoroughbred horses. I quoted her the price and she replied "I don't make that much and Ive got a college education with degrees!" I told her her the same thing Ive said here, "you wasted that time getting a degree, you should have went to WORK instead". Yeah, I did that job too, even though she hated paying an uneducated hillbilly to do it, she knew she wasn't capable of doing it herself.


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## slowp (Feb 22, 2022)

If you want this thread to go back "on track" quit insulting people. Just stop. It's pretty easy to do. Go ahead and play The Price Is Right because I will say I know nothing about Tennessee timber, and won't pretend that I do.

And it does sound like you have an inferiority complex, but I didn't go to school for that so wouldn't know. 2 to 4 years isn't really a very long time--don't know why you think it is. I also know of nobody, who can go off the streets right into a timber related job and get as much production as those who have been doing it for a while, but perhaps you are special. Everybody has to learn things, not to mention getting their muscles in shape. I did find setting chokers to be a bit yoga like and sore muscles from working at something on the weekend were gently stretched and the soreness worked out from the various contortions needed to get the choker under the log. The guy I helped was very patient and explained everything--no bluster.

There are workers in the woods with varying levels of education and I've never heard any of them regret going to school. I have heard complaints of those who didn't. In the 1980s, when logging was still going gangbusters, it was rumored that one timber faller was a former opera singer. I've dealt with a faller who is a minister on the side. It's a fairly diverse work force that way.

It works both ways. People need to ask each other questions and give answers without insults. When you go on about educated idiots, it is an insult.

I have never, ever seen or heard of anybody scaling log loads from photos. Ever. Scalers out here are still clambering on trucks, taking measurements, looking for defect. It's real, and money is at stake.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 22, 2022)

Jhenderson said:


> I was refering to your continual attacks on university graduates. It shows you fear/ shame of your lack of higher education. The same way a dog attacks out of fear. But you knew that. Your comment was simply a way to ignore the facts about log buyers tally from a picture.


What you call shame is actually PRIDE. Why should I have wasted that time straight out of high school when I knew what I was going to do to make a living from the time I could walk? My childhood babysitter was a german sheppard that stayed on the logyard with me while my Daddy and Grandfather cut and pulled timber. Shame????? LMFAO! I DONT THINK SO! If anybody should be ashamed, its those who make their living off the sweat of someone else's brow.


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## pdqdl (Feb 22, 2022)

Y'all need to play nicer. I've read most of this thread, and it seems to me everyone is making valid points. This squabble would be over if everyone would acknowledge the other guy's points when they are right, and respectfully disagree otherwise. 

Then give it a rest.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 22, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Y'all need to play nicer. I've read most of this thread, and it seems to me everyone is making valid points. This squabble would be over if everyone would acknowledge the other guy's points when they are right, and respectfully disagree otherwise. Then give it a rest.


That's all I could ask for or expect and Ive tried my best to make that clear! Im not trying to tell anybody how it works in Rhode Island or Washington, and I wont be told how stupid I am for knowing how it works in Tennessee.


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## pdqdl (Feb 22, 2022)

I think the bone of contention arises when you cast aspersions on the folks who might have attended higher education. When that life-choice gets some mud flung at it, they might just believe you are insulting them specifically. So... the fight begins.

Admitting the college guys might have good & useful training in addition to real-world experience won't hurt you, and I haven't read any posts where folks were disparaging your experience. You might have extracted that from their defense about higher education, but I think you might have been a bit thin skinned also.

If somebody calls you out specifically, y'er entitled to defend. Otherwise, it isn't fair to poke everyone in the nose by talking bad about a whole class of people. You are certain to get a fight that way.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 22, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> I think the bone of contention arises when you cast aspersions on the folks who might have attended higher education. When that life-choice gets some mud flung at it, they might just believe you are insulting them specifically. So... the fight begins.
> 
> Admitting the college guys might have good & useful training in addition to real-world experience won't hurt you, and I haven't read any posts where folks were disparaging your experience. You might have extracted that from their defense about higher education, but I think you might have been a bit thin skinned also.
> 
> If somebody calls you out specifically, y'er entitled to defend. Otherwise, it isn't fair to poke everyone in the nose by talking bad about a whole class of people. You are certain to get a fight that way.


Fair enough! Hopefully this clears the air!


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## Jhenderson (Feb 22, 2022)

For the record I’m a graduate of Coventry Vocational Technical High School, 1977


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## catbuster (Feb 22, 2022)

Hi Patty!

Five years to finish my bachelor’s in Civil & Environmental Engineering at UofL. I think the word “Environmental” was just tacked on to make it seem fancier, we only had one class that had “environmental” stuff, and that had mostly to do with water and air quality. I got to learn the ecology stuff on my own.

For the record, I have two years experience in government (highway department) and lasted less than a year at a consulting firm if I had to say exactly how long I used what exactly my degree was “for.”

The rest have been out in the field working for either civil contractors or, well, I had a short time tipping trees. I was pretty good at it, but K Bridge & Marine was more enticing to me at the time.

I had a similar upbringing to the boys you mention, except dad was a plumber and my uncle was the excavating contractor, and I started on the farm only to get on the construction iron when I was old enough to drive.

Anyway, first job out of college was laying pipe. Paid well enough to survive, I had a company truck, and I wanted to work for the place I got hired at. I made my way up to foreman in a few months and started managing projects six months in.

I moved around a little and ended up at the biggest strictly-civil outfit I could find, then promptly quit and started working for myself. I gave that up in November and am still looking for the right thing to do.

Anyway, yeah I feel fulfilled in what I’ve been able to do. Now it’s time to give back as much as I can. The current group of people in the dirt world will not be around forever, the rate of hires to lost people is unsustainable, and it may be time to give them a chance and train a lot of the younger ones.


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## slowp (Feb 23, 2022)

Catbuster: I tried to be a road engineer and it was too hard on the body. Sitting in front of a computer most of the time made me hurt more than stumbling through a fell and buck unit. I lasted 4 years and went back to being a not quite forester. 

Huntaholic: You were lucky. You had family connections. Few people do and some of us who don't have chosen to go to school to learn and get a foot in the door. I did orchard work--thinned and picked fruit. In my part of the country, kids from the right families with connections got the easier work. Kids without worked in orchards. Fruit work paid poorly and in my opinion is just as hard of work for not very much money as logging. I scraped together enough money by to pay for an AAA degree in forestry from a community college. As I've said, the college helped us get that foot in the door. I started out on a tree planting crew which at that time, paid more than minimum wage and really helped with tuition. It also counted as woods working experience. That's the foot in the door part. 

That was one way to start working in a field where one had no family connections. One way. I also found college to be much more eye opening and interesting than high school.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 23, 2022)

slowp said:


> Catbuster: I tried to be a road engineer and it was too hard on the body. Sitting in front of a computer most of the time made me hurt more than stumbling through a fell and buck unit. I lasted 4 years and went back to being a not quite forester.
> 
> Huntaholic: You were lucky. You had family connections. Few people do and some of us who don't have chosen to go to school to learn and get a foot in the door. I did orchard work--thinned and picked fruit. In my part of the country, kids from the right families with connections got the easier work. Kids without worked in orchards. Fruit work paid poorly and in my opinion is just as hard of work for not very much money as logging. I scraped together enough money by to pay for an AAA degree in forestry from a community college. As I've said, the college helped us get that foot in the door. I started out on a tree planting crew which at that time, paid more than minimum wage and really helped with tuition. It also counted as woods working experience. That's the foot in the door part.
> 
> That was one way to start working in a field where one had no family connections. One way. I also found college to be much more eye opening and interesting than high school.


Its hard, dangerous work but I wouldn't trade places with anybody I know anywhere. Im not the least bit "ashamed" as someone put it, of where I came from. Quite the contrary in fact. I grew up in an 8x40ish rat infested trailer with no running water and of course no bathroom or toilet. Until I was 12 years old I had never had a shower or taken a real bath. A bath consisted of heating a tub of water and scrubbing down with a washcloth. Water was carried from across the dirt road form my great grandmothers well and if you let it sit in the bucket 2 days it had wiggle tails in it. My grandfather was a terrible gambler and an alcoholic, but he knew how to use a saw and cut timber. Long about the time I was 10 years old my Dad finally got off his lazy ass and he and my grandfather went in business together logging. Up until then my mother worked and supported us all. I worked in the woods with them every summer when I was out of school, and from that point on, I took care of myself. School clothes? I bought them. First car? I bought it. For a lot of years, I almost hated my old man, but ya know what? He made me who I am today and you damned right Im proud of that. 
The real "break" in getting into this business around here is people keep their word and do what they say they will do. 99.9% of my business is done with just a handshake. in 40 years of doing this, Ive signed a grand total of 1, yes ONE contract. Word of mouth and treating people fair and right keeps me covered up in work. I don't and have never owned a business card, my name is unlisted in the phone book, Ive never put an add in the paper or on the radio, and I average cutting 1.5 mil ft a year. 
I sincerely didn't mean to step on any toes with my "educated idiot" comment, its just that around here, unless you are doing contracts for the state or bidding on jobs, its a waste of time. I don't do either of those things and I will quit before I have to do that to get work. I realize that in MOST states, the red tape requires that you have those degrees, but thank GOD its not that way here!


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## pdqdl (Feb 23, 2022)

You seem to have pretty good composition, grammar, and punctuation skills for country bumpkin. I suspect that your heritage might have included a bit more emphasis on book learning than you have suggested. If not, then you should consider yourself lucky to have done so well.


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## Huntaholic (Feb 23, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> You seem to have pretty good composition, grammar, and punctuation skills for country bumpkin. I suspect that your heritage might have included a bit more emphasis on book learning than you have suggested. If not, then you should consider yourself lucky to have done so well.


I've always been blessed when it comes to reading and understanding language and composition. I could read the Literature book in high school at the start of the year and never have to read it again all year. My wife has some formal education, which she took way after we were married. LOL I always had to proof read her work before she turned it in and she had a 98%+ percentile in those classes. 
Common math is a breeze for me, but algebra, well that crap is all greek to me! Im just glad algebra wasn't a required credit to graduate when I went to school! 
I don't really consider myself lucky, not nearly as much as I consider myself BLESSED!


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## slowp (Feb 23, 2022)

Nobody has had a perfect life. You were raised and shown how to do something early, as your statements about being in a log yard at age 10 say. That's a foot in the door, regardless of being poor and the rest of it. 

Not gonna get into a "I walked uphill to school in neck deep snow both ways" bit, although I do hear it is quite deep today in Up Nort Wisconsin.


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## slowp (Feb 23, 2022)

slowp said:


> Nobody has had a perfect life. You were raised and shown how to do something early, as your statements about being in a log yard at age 10 say. That's a foot in the door, regardless of being poor and the rest of it.


Algebra was a required course for my state. We had to soldier on through it, and then more in college along with trig and statistics. Statistics is part of timber cruising. 


slowp said:


> Not gonna get into a "I walked uphill to school in neck deep snow both ways" bit, although I do hear it is quite deep today in Up Nort Wisconsin.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 23, 2022)

the "educated idiots" can go hand in hand with "I've been doing this xx years", both are idiots but lumping all folks into one file or the other pretty much puts you in one file or the other...

I've had my fair share of college idiots, as well as the guys that don't even mention the schooling they have cause its evident in their work. 
Just as I've worked, or tried to around the folks that were born in a briar patch spitting caulk boots and sharpening daddies axe... that couldn't figure out which end of a choker went where...
As well as some folks I was pretty sure until recently were completely illiterate, but one of the best damned operators I've had the pleasure to work with and for. (turns our the ****ers just too stubborn to wear glasses) or a CPA that didn't even bat an eye at wallowing in the muck with me and picked up most of my choker tricks just by watching, even taught me a couple. 
Anyway, point is, books and covers etc

Though I would appreciate if folks from both camps the properly schooled, and the ditch schooled would stop looking down their collective noses at everyone that isn't from their school, then maybe ya all could work together and create something really impressive.


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## catbuster (Feb 23, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> the "educated idiots" can go hand in hand with "I've been doing this xx years", both are idiots but lumping all folks into one file or the other pretty much puts you in one file or the other...
> 
> I've had my fair share of college idiots, as well as the guys that don't even mention the schooling they have cause its evident in their work.
> Just as I've worked, or tried to around the folks that were born in a briar patch spitting caulk boots and sharpening daddies axe... that couldn't figure out which end of a choker went where...
> ...



It actually happens on a regular basis. Here’s one I worked on:


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## northmanlogging (Feb 23, 2022)

catbuster said:


> It actually happens on a regular basis. Here’s one I worked on:
> View attachment 967830


Well... It could happen a damned sight more often then.


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## Cricket (Feb 25, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> the "educated idiots" can go hand in hand with "I've been doing this xx years", both are idiots but lumping all folks into one file or the other pretty much puts you in one file or the other...
> 
> I've had my fair share of college idiots, as well as the guys that don't even mention the schooling they have cause its evident in their work.
> Just as I've worked, or tried to around the folks that were born in a briar patch spitting caulk boots and sharpening daddies axe... that couldn't figure out which end of a choker went where...
> ...


This. I've been shoeing horses for forty years - owned them (or my folks did) for fifteen before that - and I'm the sort that keeps up with the newest research, etc. But I really hate hauling out "I've been doing this for forty years!", because I've known so many people - horse people, tree people, whatever - who have also been doing whatever they've been doing, for forty years - but flat refused to learn - flat out fought against learning - anything besides what daddy taught 'em. And quite often that was just enough to get by. And they made a virtue out of never having let another iota of information in.


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## Cricket (Feb 25, 2022)

catbuster said:


> Hi Patty!
> 
> Five years to finish my bachelor’s in Civil & Environmental Engineering at UofL. I think the word “Environmental” was just tacked on to make it seem fancier, we only had one class that had “environmental” stuff, and that had mostly to do with water and air quality. I got to learn the ecology stuff on my own.
> 
> ...


"and lasted less than a year at a consulting firm if I had to say exactly how long I used what exactly my degree was “for.”

Six years of college, biology, chemistry, and computers - forty years of shoeing horses. (Though I did work fixing computers for a couple of years, and still fix those of friends on occasion).

Wasn't even a training thing. I just realized I don't like people much, or working indoors. Kind of an expensive lesson, but it was worth it both because I use some of what I learned from all my various classes on occasion, and because I did it long enough to know that working indoors for other people wasn't going to work out well for me, so no second guessing going with a "not gonna get rich" career. No education is ever a loss.


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## rwoods (Feb 25, 2022)

The forecasters were close. We got enough rain to keep my logs on the hill for quite a while. However, I was able to fix the dozer after work today without rain so it will be ready when things dry up a bit. 

Ron


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## slowp (Feb 26, 2022)

Engineers take logging technology and convert it to skier transport. What could possibly go wrong? 
I have never heard this story before and am surprised that my dad didn't mention it.

Mt Hood Skyway


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## rwoods (Mar 5, 2022)

Probably should post this in another thread, but since part of the story is here, I will finish here. 

We drugged the deuce up the hill today with the dozer. Actually, a cake walk. I told my buddy, who among other life pursuits ran a towing business, to let the dozer set the place. 

Since we don't have any bunks and broke all our stakes last week hauling out of a field, we loaded the truck with only six logs pyramid style. 

3 ash and 3 red oak.



My partner in crime on the high side lashing.



The road from the top is a series of steps, short flat then short steep, short flat, short steep, short flat then long steep with a curve near the bottom. The long section is the steepest. We short chained the dozer to the rear of the truck. Like the ascent, I told my buddy to let the dozer set the pace going down. First section was fine, just a little skidding of the dozer. The next section, we are going faster and faster with the dozer sliding so much that I progressively lower the blade until the truck is stopped. By that time the blade is buried so deep that the rear of the dozer raises as I try to lift the blade. Can't back up. After some finagling with the tilt and angle, I freed up the dozer. I tell my buddy that we need to rethink the long section as unknown to him I am being dragged. It is then he tells me that he has been powering the truck to keep the chain tight. Of course there has never been any slack in the chain that he can't even see. I can only assume that his mind had shifted to towing and he forgot that he isn't towing. I reminded him to stay off the throttle and we made it down the long incline with not much problem. My s-i-l who was following us said the road is torn all to pieces in places, as you would suspect from the ride, so I will be back to repair the road before we make any more trips. 

The above only took 4.5 hours. 1.25 hrs fixing, fueling and driving the truck to the site. Another hour spent with a stuck master cylinder, with the balance going to road prep, loading and the trip. Master cylinder is stuck again at the end of the road so this small load though down the hill is still far from the wood lot. A lot of work for very little wood. Days like today, make me think buying folks a heat pump might be more productive, but with 349 families on the list that is out of my reach.

To my surprise, the load didn't shift or settle any.

Ron


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## Huntaholic (Mar 6, 2022)

rwoods said:


> Probably should post this in another thread, but since part of the story is here, I will finish here.
> 
> We drugged the deuce up the hill today with the dozer. Actually, a cake walk. I told my buddy, who among other life pursuits ran a towing business, to let the dozer set the place.
> 
> ...


Please don't take any of this the wrong way, but I hope youre not doing this to make a living! That's a good looking dozer btw! What is it? G? H? J? A set of 18" pads and a winch and you would have a hell of a log moving machine there! Mine is a wide track-lgp with 18in pads and it will do things a dozer isn't supposed to do.


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## rwoods (Mar 6, 2022)

No problem. This is charity work. I would go broke before the first tree hit the ground.

The dozer is a 750B LT. Military surplus owned by the county Sheriff’s Department. The old truck is mine. A winch with an arch would be nice.

Ron


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## rwoods (Mar 6, 2022)

Smoothed the road out today, but now the tractor battery is dead. If I liked wrenching, I would be having more fun than I can stand. Ron


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## Campbellcontractlogging (Apr 15, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> I didn't even think of posting those numbers, just assumed since it was forestry and logging, folks would know? I had to stump it higher than normal because I knew I didn't have enough bar to cut it low, but it was 5 ft across the stump, 4 main trunk logs, 3 10 footers and an 8 foot log.


That’s a stud for sure.


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