# How to plug a hole in a tree....



## Treetom

I have a client with a 48" dbh red oak. There's a big hole in the trunk at about 25'. He'd like to plug it up. Is there a product any of you have used that would work in such an application? The old "tree surgeons" around these parts would just fill a void with concrete or tar. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## highasatree

expanding foam should do the trick.


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## brokenbudget

48" wide tree with a 25' hole in it?


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## randyg

highasatree said:


> expanding foam should do the trick.



Two types of expanding foam. One expands just for so long and then stops. The other will continue to expand for several weeks or more and not recommended for use around windows or doors as will expand to much and cause trouble. I guess the first type would be better so as not to cause to much pressure and possibly split tree? Then exposed portion must be treated (painted) to protect from UV rays breaking down. Might even texture to somewhat match the bark and use same color paint. Some metal screen material pressed in a bit before foam sets completely might help deter certain rodents from building a nicely insulated house in there. I think its best to dig/scrape out all loose rotting decaying material before filling cavity. You might want to bill this time and materials.


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## treeman75

I have used ruberized undercoating in a shaker can. I use just anough to seal the wound not fill the hole.


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## RacerX

brokenbudget said:


> 48" wide tree with a 25' hole in it?



He said* at* about 25', meaning 25' off of the ground. But maybe you knew that.


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## Sunrise Guy

How big is that hole? I would not want to plug any hole that is big enough to compromise the strength of the holding wood that supports the rest of the tree. If you plug it, and the tree fails, look for your involvement in a lawsuit. Also, explain to the owner that the cavity may still continue rotting out due to invasive pathogens getting into the foam or whatever you put in there. I would have the owner sign off on a waiver that acknowledges that the tree may still fail and that he/she will not hold you responsible for the same. I would evaluate the structural strength of the tree and then, if the situation called for it, recommend its removal to eliminate the chance of its failure. It's a litigious world out there. CYA.


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## Treetom

Sunrise Guy said:


> How big is that hole? I would not want to plug any hole that is big enough to compromise the strength of the holding wood that supports the rest of the tree. If you plug it, and the tree fails, look for your involvement in a lawsuit. Also, explain to the owner that the cavity may still continue rotting out due to invasive pathogens getting into the foam or whatever you put in there. I would have the owner sign off on a waiver that acknowledges that the tree may still fail and that he/she will not hold you responsible for the same. I would evaluate the structural strength of the tree and then, if the situation called for it, recommend its removal to eliminate the chance of its failure. It's a litigious world out there. CYA.



Well thought out Sunrise Guy. I believe this is a dangerous tree with extensive rot in the trunk. Judging by the holes further up in the major branches, some critters have created quite a home for themselves, perhaps a system of tunnels. This tree is an accident waiting to happen, just a question of how long. I explained to the HO that it is a good candidate for removal, but he thinks that digging all the rot out of the big hole and filling it in will make a difference in the tree's longevity. Sign off on liability sounds like a good idea.


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## Bermie

Treetom said:


> ... I explained to the HO that it is a good candidate for removal, but he thinks that digging all the rot out of the big hole and filling it in will make a difference in the tree's longevity. Sign off on liability sounds like a good idea.



Who's the tree expert, you or him?

Digging rot out of a hole is a sure way to make the situation worse, by digging at it you run the chance of penetrating the comparmentalization barrier and opening up sound wood to decay organisms. Fillings and foam can create further problems by creating more sheltered areas for decay...
If the problems are extensive the removal is warranted...depending on the condition, targets below and the risk assessment!

I have just taken on the management of a 300 yr old Tamarind...it's hollow, limbs have old splits, its HUGE, but the bugger is managing well...no way am I filling anything in or disturbing any existing decay pockets.


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## BC WetCoast

If the HO doesn't want it removed, then a major reduction to reduce failure risk (probability of failure and the consequence should the limb fail) could be considered. I can't say for sure without seeing the tree, but something to consider.


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## treemandan

Sometimes, in these cases, tree support rope can be half hitched around and around the entire tree if some guy wants to get crazy.


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## ropensaddle

I would not touch that with a ten foot pole lol. I would either do reductions over several years or remove,what are the targets?high use area?


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## vaclimber

Sunrise Guy said:


> How big is that hole? I would not want to plug any hole that is big enough to compromise the strength of the holding wood that supports the rest of the tree. If you plug it, and the tree fails, look for your involvement in a lawsuit. Also, explain to the owner that the cavity may still continue rotting out due to invasive pathogens getting into the foam or whatever you put in there. I would have the owner sign off on a waiver that acknowledges that the tree may still fail and that he/she will not hold you responsible for the same. I would evaluate the structural strength of the tree and then, if the situation called for it, recommend its removal to eliminate the chance of its failure. It's a litigious world out there. CYA.



Sound advice!


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## Treetom

I like your ideas Bermie.


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## Ted-RI

What's going on here? Is this thread from the seventies????? Have you ever read a book about proper tree care practices? Don't fill cavities.


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## vaclimber

:greenchainsaw::greenchainsaw


Ted-RI said:


> What's going on here? Is this thread from the seventies????? Have you ever read a book about proper tree care practices? Don't fill cavities.



Unless they're in your mouth.:greenchainsaw:


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## Treetom

The HO just called and insists this hole can be sealed.... just wants to keep water from settling in the cavity. I'm ready to just jam an umbrella in the cavity and call it good.


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## Norwayclimber

Just ask the HO why he dosnt plug it himself, since he obviously is the expert...


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## Treetom

After discussing this issue with the HO, we decided it was best to leave this 48" dbh red oak alone. With an eye to some future cabling perhaps. Thanks for the feedback. Did remove some large dead limbs, though. Located right over the stairway to the lake.


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## Norwayclimber

Treetom said:


> After discussing this issue with the HO, we decided it was best to leave this 48" dbh red oak alone. With an eye to some future cabling perhaps. Thanks for the feedback. Did remove some large dead limbs, though. Located right over the stairway to the lake.


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## Col2y

highasatree said:


> expanding foam should do the trick.



have you ever taken out a tree with foam in it? i did one about 2 weeks ago and i had some extra time so i bisected the cavity (first time I got a chance with foam to do so) it held alot of moisture and seemed to promote rot even more, we use to fill them with foam as well... up until about 2 weeks ago haha, it was a good little learning experience

I was conversing with a friend of mine with more credentials then i can list, (he's forgot more then most of us would ever hope to learn in his many years doing so and studied under shigo himself in his earlier day) and he says that for the most part he just cover it with a steal mesh to keep animals out and leaves the cavity open to alow for proper air flow, a drain whole could be added if the situation requires it. but every situation is different and really its the situation that depicts what you should do.

I'm not critisising in anyway this is just a little food for thought, it changed my outlook on it


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## mckeetree

Ted-RI said:


> What's going on here? Is this thread from the seventies????? Have you ever read a book about proper tree care practices? Don't fill cavities.



Lots of these threads appear to be from the sixties or seventies. There is a logger on here that post things that would fit more in the twenties.


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## Norwayclimber

Col2y said:


> have you ever taken out a tree with foam in it? i did one about 2 weeks ago and i had some extra time so i bisected the cavity (first time I got a chance with foam to do so) it held alot of moisture and seemed to promote rot even more, we use to fill them with foam as well... up until about 2 weeks ago haha, it was a good little learning experience
> 
> I was conversing with a friend of mine with more credentials then i can list, (he's forgot more then most of us would ever hope to learn in his many years doing so and studied under shigo himself in his earlier day) and he says that for the most part he just cover it with a steal mesh to keep animals out and leaves the cavity open to alow for proper air flow, a drain whole could be added if the situation requires it. but every situation is different and really its the situation that depicts what you should do.
> 
> I'm not critisising in anyway this is just a little food for thought, it changed my outlook on it



A drain hole opens for the rot to spred through the sound wood you've drilled in. 

Water standing in a trunk gives little supply of oxygen, and not to good growing conditions for most ungus and bacteria. (Allthough you may get a smelly and foullooking water) A drained hole will change between dry, wet and damp. Good conditions for fungus and bacterias to spread.


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## PaulPollard

I would scope the hole out for Raccoons first. Then you could just nail some wire mesh over the hole to keep stuff out. You could also get a tree climbing mason to do a nice brick job on it or something?

I would go for the removal if the hole is half the diameter of the trunk


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## Col2y

Norwayclimber said:


> A drain hole opens for the rot to spred through the sound wood you've drilled in.
> 
> Water standing in a trunk gives little supply of oxygen, and not to good growing conditions for most ungus and bacteria. (Allthough you may get a smelly and foullooking water) A drained hole will change between dry, wet and damp. Good conditions for fungus and bacterias to spread.



very good point, didnt really think that through myself, i guess it would be like when they pull up old sunken logs from the bottom of a lake, and they are still like new because there was no air for the fungus to grow.


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## Bermie

Here is a picture of an old 'hole' I cut off a tree on Thursday. Callus tissue from an old pruning cut that had not completely closed over.
It came from a Poinciana...on the side of a large limb that had to be taken off from overhanging a new roof and new commercial A/C units.

There were other factors that called for the removal of the limb, damage further down at the lower attachment, contruction damage to roots...

Interesting to see how the 'hole' compartmentalized...and it was old, see the lichen growing on the outside? Some of the bark was knocked off when it hit the ground...exposing the woundwood fibres, on the backside you can see what I assume to be wall 4...the dark line that was the size of the branch at the time it was removed...then the ring of woundwood/callus tissue that curled inwards, with the wood present at the time of the cut subsequently rotting away...

Further down the branch the wood was completely sound.

Cool huh?


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## vaclimber

Col2y said:


> have you ever taken out a tree with foam in it? i did one about 2 weeks ago and i had some extra time so i bisected the cavity (first time I got a chance with foam to do so) it held alot of moisture and seemed to promote rot even more, we use to fill them with foam as well... up until about 2 weeks ago haha, it was a good little learning experience
> 
> I was conversing with a friend of mine with more credentials then i can list, (he's forgot more then most of us would ever hope to learn in his many years doing so and studied under shigo himself in his earlier day) and he says that for the most part he just cover it with a steal mesh to keep animals out and leaves the cavity open to alow for proper air flow, a drain whole could be added if the situation requires it. but every situation is different and really its the situation that depicts what you should do.
> 
> I'm not critisising in anyway this is just a little food for thought, it changed my outlook on it



Drainhole bad. Holding water, good sign.


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## Treetom

*Pics of the tree in question.*

Feedback appreciated.


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## Bermie

There are more things going on with that tree than just the original hole we started talking about.
I don't like the look of that crack at the fork, or the damage further up the branch...
Not to mention other stubs with poor callus wood develpment.
I think its worth looking at the BIG picture and start adding up ALL the issues and possible solutions...from pruning to takedown...


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## M.D. Vaden

Ted-RI said:


> What's going on here? Is this thread from the seventies????? Have you ever read a book about proper tree care practices? Don't fill cavities.




Never say never. I saw one tree that was a home for bee hives. Its about the only tree that filling a hole came to mind for as a solution.

Me ... I'd just have to see the tree, and decide if there is a good reason. The reason possibilities are pretty minimal though.

If I was going to fill a hole, say to prevent unwanted habitat, I'd use the black pond foam used for water features. Its flexible but more rugged.


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## treeseer

Bermie said:


> There are more things going on with that tree than just the original hole we started talking about.
> I don't like the look of that crack at the fork, or the damage further up the branch...
> Not to mention other stubs with poor callus wood develpment.
> I think its worth looking at the BIG picture and start adding up ALL the issues and possible solutions...from pruning to takedown...



:agree2:

Bad-looking fork. Probe in the hole and if rot is deep then all the more reason to cable. yes this tree needs a lot more than a hole plugged.


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## treemandan

What does a tree climbing mason get per hour? Union?


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## beastmaster

I've always been amazed how things have changed in our industry in the last 40 years or so. It seem like everything are grandfathers did to help trees did more damage then good. We've came a long way.
What surprises me is that some of these practices, filling cavitys, bricking cavitys(Ive only seen that in old books),drilling drain holes, scraping out hollows, are still being suggested. How did trees survive so long without our help? Beast


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## treevet

Treetom said:


> There appears to be some cause for concern on the mid portion of the right limb. I would want to look at that further.
> 
> How about some picts or descriptions of targets? If it is in the middle of a protected and untraveled field....leave the poor guy alone.
> 
> Excellent posts Bermie.


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## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> Never say never. I saw one tree that was a home for bee hives. Its about the only tree that filling a hole came to mind for as a solution.
> 
> Me ... I'd just have to see the tree, and decide if there is a good reason. The reason possibilities are pretty minimal though.
> 
> If I was going to fill a hole, say to prevent unwanted habitat, I'd use the black pond foam used for water features. Its flexible but more rugged.


I have been filling them with pyrachma cells,sieve tube elements and wood glue and so far its working:monkey: Nahhhhhh, usually filled with sawchain round here


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## tree MDS

This has been a good thread..

So am I to assume that creating a drain generally does more harm than good? 

When my ex took the oral part of the CT arborist exam she said they asked her about a cavity with water in it. I beleive she said to drill a hole and install a drain. I dont know.. they passed her.


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## treevet

tree MDS said:


> This has been a good thread..
> 
> So am I to assume that creating a drain generally does more harm than good?
> 
> When my ex took the oral part of the CT arborist exam she said they asked her about a cavity with water in it. I beleive she said to drill a hole and install a drain. I dont know.. they passed her.



you are breaking compartmentalization walls and therefore giving access to new spaces to pathogens. You have to look at the lesser of evils. This coming from one that has installed many drains (wetwood as well) until I met Shigo.


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## tree MDS

treevet said:


> you are breaking compartmentalization walls and therefore giving access to new spaces to pathogens. You have to look at the lesser of evils. This coming from one that has installed many drains (wetwood as well) until I met Shigo.



Yeah, I was agreeing with the no drill idea.

That one post by norway climber seemed to make a lot of sense (to me anyway).


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## treevet

If you could find a way to completely fill up a cavity with water and keep it full decay would have little chance.


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