# Climbing knots



## PGFMAN (May 26, 2011)

I have been using a bowline on a carabiner hooked to my saddle. Is that safe. I have read some things on here that say different. It has worked flawlessly for me so far.


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## derwoodii (May 27, 2011)

on paper perhaps, best to see a picture how you turn n dress n finish the rig. Others will help but if you post pic will make it all the easier to help. 
Many now say bowline nay the best knot for your climb line to crab to saddle. I have, as you used it for 30 years but I do see the sense in some of the debate.


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## PinnaclePete (May 27, 2011)

If you're using the tail of the bowline for your friction hitch, it is fine. But if you're using as a deadend tie off, without a backer knot, it can work itself loose. 

Better choice is the anchor knot for a deadend, with a backer knot. It will cinch down on itself, minimizing movement on the biner, but is still easy to untie.

Anchor Hitch | How to tie the Anchor Hitch (Fisherman's Hitch) | Boating knots


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## PGFMAN (May 27, 2011)

Here are some pics. This is the exact system I have been climbing with. Is the bowline safe in this application.


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## PGFMAN (May 27, 2011)

Whoops those pics may be too small


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## PGFMAN (May 27, 2011)

Ps I havn't been climbing long if you couldn't tell


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## TreeAce (May 27, 2011)

I am a big fan of the bowline but IMO...That tail is to short! And if it was longer I think it may get in the way alittle. You could check into a "yosemite tie off" with the bowline. My advice is use the anchor hitch or a fishermans knot. Or just get a spliced end rope and be done with it. One thing is for sure....make damn sure you tie whatever u r using the right way, OBV.


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## derwoodii (May 27, 2011)

Yeah look I'm a wee bit concerned about ya bowlines tail tis short n if it creeps, be nay good. I don't rig as you I.m very old school use the bowline but leave a long tail to form my prussic / climb hitch which gets its own end knot.
Your way opens you up to knot mistake being a bad one, imagine you get distracted by a pretty girl while your set that bowline n you got no redundancy, just one turn mistake. 
I hope others will chime in to help you along. I.m too set in ma ways to be a great value for modem gear rig n sets.

Agree with PinnaclePete in that you need a knot that sets has fail safe and snitches up to bite your carb thus avoid crab rotation on a loose loop.


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## RacerX (May 27, 2011)

Well given all of the nice expensive gear that you've got there I would opt for a rope (looks like Tachyon my favorite) with a tight spliced eye.:msp_smile:

But if you must tie something I would prefer a knot that tightens downs on the carabiner and doesn't float around if you have some slack in the line.


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## oscar4883 (May 27, 2011)

The bowline is about the greatest knot ever, but i your case I would like that biner captured better with something like a fishermans knot. Less slop in the system.


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## ozzy42 (May 30, 2011)

I use the bowline to terminate my climbline .Mostly because that is what I used for years before I changed to a split tail system and I can tie it with my eyes closed but,,,,,,,,,,,,,
1,I tie to a rope snap instead of a biner
2.I make the loop as small as possible
3.I add the yosemite tie off.It gives added safety and gets the tail running back up and paralell to the rope.



PS For a little experiment ,try this .
From the set up in your pic, pinch both sides of the rope where it crosses under you biner.Now grap the rope about two inches above your bowline.Next,quickly push and pull the knot together and apart a dozen times or so and watch what happens .
Bowlines do not like this.After all,the reason it is such a great knot is because it is sooh easy to untie.


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## boo (May 30, 2011)

the more connected pieces in your system= more potential failure points.
I would not allow climbers to use that set up on my crews.
keep it simple.
figure 8, backed up with overhand knot will keep it from "walking" on your biner... but ONLY if you're using the tail as your bridge/friction hitch.


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## boo (May 30, 2011)

I wouldn't dare use it if I was not using the tail as a bridge... not that it has ever walked... but yes, it is not a cincher... makes it easy to remove, but still much better than that sloppy, short tailed bowline shown in the pics.
"A" book also says bowline use for rigging is better than timber hitch, even though it has more tight bends than the timber hitch.
tight bends compromise rope strength.
the dressing makes the difference.
ever seen what happens when an undressed or loose bowline gets loaded?


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## Tverhaegen (May 30, 2011)

when using a carabiner you must use a cinching knot. if you use a bowline with a carabiner, no matter how tight you think you can dress it it can slide and possibly over the gate. this would mean you're side loading your carabiner which is very unsafe.


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## chad556 (May 31, 2011)

Tverhaegen said:


> when using a carabiner you must use a cinching knot. if you use a bowline with a carabiner, no matter how tight you think you can dress it it can slide and possibly over the gate. this would mean you're side loading your carabiner which is very unsafe.


 
Exactly what I was going to say. If your bowline catches on your biner and you don't notice and cross load it, lets just say you are walking a limb and you slip, you could rip the gate backwards right out of the carabiner. If that happens you will be accelerating to the ground before you figure out what happened. Use a knot that cinches up tight and doesn't slide around. I use the anchor hitch, simple, quick to tie and unties easily, very similar to the way you untie a bowline. Be safe


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## PGFMAN (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the input. I started thinking about it and that was pretty dumb of me. Good thing I asked. Does this resemble a fishermans knot. It seems pretty firm.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 2, 2011)

Bowline is safe if you are using a long tail and tying something like a blakes after the bowline, but not as a termination knot. Try this National Tree Climbing Guide  its a few years old but contains some good info

or get a copy of tree climbers companion


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## chad556 (Jun 2, 2011)

That knot looks to me like a anchor hitch with a half hitch on top. If you undo the top loop around the rope then that would be the exact knot that I climb with. It has never slipped, flopped around, unrolled or otherwise been anything but rock solid safe for me. Nice carabiner btw, I just ordered a couple of those from Baileys :msp_biggrin:


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## RacerX (Jun 2, 2011)

I like a Buntline Hitch which is basically a variant of the clove hitch. Very compact and won't come loose even with lots of line movement.







Buntline Hitch


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## imagineero (Jun 3, 2011)

Lots of good advice already given here, I have seen bowlines come undone both on climbing ropes and on haul ropes when hauling up saws etc. They do come undone, especially on new slippery rope! A figure 8 with a fishermens knot on the tail is what a lot of rock climbers use.If you tie the fishermens knot first, you can slide the loop around until you get the right length for your figure 8, then tie that. 

You can use an O-ring to keep the rope captive on the carabiner and there are also rubber gadgets for the same purpose available from all rock climbing shops. They are generally called 'quick draw gromets' and cost a couple dollars. Most are design for flat webbing rather than rope but they still work.

Shaun


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## PGFMAN (Jun 3, 2011)

That buntline looks pretty good too. Does anyone else use that. Chad what do you do with the tail on the anchor hitch and how much tail do you usually leave. Those carabiners are awesome and pretty easy to handle one handed.


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## fishercat (Jun 3, 2011)

*If you can afford all that new gear................*

why can't you afford the Tree Climber's Companion?


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## PGFMAN (Jun 4, 2011)

Taxes


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## chad556 (Jun 4, 2011)

When I tie my anchor hitch I leave about 4-6" of tail. Once you dress and set it correctly it stays absolutely solid no matter how many times you load and unload it. I start the climb with a 4" tail and finish it with 4" :msp_thumbup:


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## tree.bro.NZ (Jun 4, 2011)

Id say its personal prefernce, What ever you've been taught by an experienced climber has obviously worked for them and if you feel comfortable/safe using it i spose you cant go wrong . I mainly use a figure of 8, but i dont see any problem using a bowline.

p.s. remember wat ever knot your using, take your time, do it rite and dress your knot


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