# suggestions for rigging... false crotch



## Tree Raptor (Mar 4, 2009)

I am not really new to tree removal, been doing it for many years... just been using the same simple (tried & true) techniques on mainly simple, uncomplicated jobs, no injuries or accidents to date. Am new to this site just couple weeks and would like to move forward and learn a few new things. 

What type of rigging could/should I use when either taking down the last limb of the tree or chunking 3 or 4' sections of wood down with no "crotch" left in the tree to run the ground rope over. Ie. we need to lower slowly as asphalt or landscape below require that we do not drop med to heavy pieces. 

I am assuming that I need to afix some rig to the the top of the trunk to make a false crotch. (is that the right terminology ?) I would also need to know what working loads these types of rigging will allow. 

I just purchased a like new 65' altex bucket truck and will be needing some help learning how best to use the new rig to it's best and safest capability. I am sure I will have alot of questions on how best to do something with it. 

thanks


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## Rftreeman (Mar 5, 2009)

You need a sling and block, the sling wraps around the tree and the rope goes through the block, the safe working load will be listed with the items.

slings

blocks


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## Raymond (Mar 5, 2009)

I have a short piece of a bull rope, like 8 ft. or so and use an old larger metal carabiner for the block.

It doesn't come out of the tool box often but when I need it I need it.


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 5, 2009)

*false crotch (cont'd)*



Rftreeman said:


> You need a sling and block, the sling wraps around the tree and the rope goes through the block, the safe working load will be listed with the items.
> 
> slings
> 
> blocks



RFtreeman, read your reply and went to Bailys site to look. After going thru the selection on the Bailys site the top block (is it wrong to call the block a pulley ?) is rated at working 4,400 and breaking at 112 ton. 7" long aluminum. Seems like this would get the job done and leave tons of insurance regarding overloading it. The ONLY thing that I just thought of is that occasionally we will use a 5/8 bull rope when pulling/directing a large tree donw and make a home made pulley by putting a midline loop in the pull rope 15 feet or so ahead of the anchor tree that we are wrapping the rope around and running it back up through the midline loop and back to the anchoring tree. we get a little more mechanical pull doing this the big tree. The block/pulley in Bailys mentioned above will only take 1/2" line so we would not be able to use this for both purposes (up in tree to lower down heavy chunks and pulling big trees down) Since I'm new to this I'm just wondeing if getting a block/pulley capable of 3/4" rope would be "overkill" for up in the tree lowering tasks. 

Lastly, what knot would be recomended to tie the block to the trunk and would it be recommended to single wrap or double wrap the sling around the trunk. Just trying to get it right. And when it comes to equipment I don't give a hoot about money as I have always learned that buying the best ALWAYS saves money in the long run. Thanks again and look foward to recommendations....


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## Rftreeman (Mar 5, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> RFtreeman, read your reply and went to Bailys site to look. After going thru the selection on the Bailys site the top block (is it wrong to call the block a pulley ?) is rated at working 4,400 and breaking at 112 ton. 7" long aluminum. Seems like this would get the job done and leave tons of insurance regarding overloading it. The ONLY thing that I just thought of is that occasionally we will use a 5/8 bull rope when pulling/directing a large tree donw and make a home made pulley by putting a midline loop in the pull rope 15 feet or so ahead of the anchor tree that we are wrapping the rope around and running it back up through the midline loop and back to the anchoring tree. we get a little more mechanical pull doing this the big tree. The block/pulley in Bailys mentioned above will only take 1/2" line so we would not be able to use this for both purposes (up in tree to lower down heavy chunks and pulling big trees down) Since I'm new to this I'm just wondeing if getting a block/pulley capable of 3/4" rope would be "overkill" for up in the tree lowering tasks.
> 
> Lastly, what knot would be recomended to tie the block to the trunk and would it be recommended to single wrap or double wrap the sling around the trunk. Just trying to get it right. And when it comes to equipment I don't give a hoot about money as I have always learned that buying the best ALWAYS saves money in the long run. Thanks again and look foward to recommendations....


as for calling the block a pulley I guess that fine. The method you described about the midline knot is what we called a "come along" back in the day and I've used it faithfully for years. The 3/4 block well also accept the smaller ropes so it's the best bet as for tying the sling, that's something I can't describe, I'd have to show you but maybe some of the other guys can't enlighten you on that or you could use a whoopie sling they are easier to use and are adjustable, I have one and like it very much. You can buy two blocks and when you need some extra ump pulling something over you can tie one to the anchor point and the other midline on the pull rope and go thru the one at the anchor point first then back thru the midline block same as you described using the midline way but you'll have much less friction and get better pull.

this is the sling I use.


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## BCbound (Mar 5, 2009)

A cow hitch or timber hitch will work for attaching the block/pulley to the tree. If you google them you should be able to find and good demo of one.

Even better here's one of many demo's from youtube(timber hitch)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIYX1Kpu66k


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## Col2y (Mar 5, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> (is it wrong to call the block a pulley ?) .



its not wrong, as long as you know what your talking about,,, but know that they are two completely different tools. 

Blocks use bushing to roll and they have pins to attach a bite of rope from the sling directly to it they can take enormous amouts of loading, and shocking. 

Pullies can be either bushing or bearing and they need a connecting link to attach to the sling, they are not as strong and can not be used for shock loading at all, but they have alot less friction in them, used for MA set ups or redirects


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## Mikecutstrees (Mar 5, 2009)

hey tree raptor, Where are you in nys? I could show you some stuff if you like. Drop me a pm if you want to..... Mike


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Col2y said:


> its not wrong, as long as you know what your talking about,,, but know that they are two completely different tools.
> 
> Blocks use bushing to roll and they have pins to attach a bite of rope from the sling directly to it they can take enormous amouts of loading, and shocking.
> 
> Pullies can be either bushing or bearing and they need a connecting link to attach to the sling, they are not as strong and can not be used for shock loading at all, but they have alot less friction in them, used for MA set ups or redirects



Thanks for the definition Col2y, since I wish to use in both lowering blocks and pull downs w/ 5/8 bull I think I will go with the 3/4 block so I only have to buy one. There are two listed in the post above (at Baileys). The steel 3/4 is $85 or so rated at 112 ton load & 4400 working whereas the 3/4 ISC aluminum (yellow pictured) is $150 w/mas load 165 ton & working of 6600lbs. I know that the aluminum is twice the price but like the advantage of it's lighter weight and higher load/working capacity. Col2y, do you think I could go wrong getting that one or is it just plain overkill ? (is there such a thing as overkill ? ) 

And in trying to answer my own question now that Ive read some more regarding which knot & rope to use to affix to block up top. Since I would be buying a block capable of up to 3/4" I was thinking of using a streach of 5/8" bull that I have (or bying a piece) and using the triple fishermans bend to tie the loop. Looking at the premade slings listed in above post at Baileys .... using 1/2 inch rope to hold a dropping 3 or 4' sections of heavy Oak scares me. I know that I am kinda new to this but I would image that fatigue of hundreds of drops would eventually cause a 1/2 rope to fail. Do most climbers buy these premade slings or just make their own rope to affix block ?

really look forward to what everyone knows to be super safe for those heavy pieces.


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## Col2y (Mar 6, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> Thanks for the definition Col2y, since I wish to use in both lowering blocks and pull downs w/ 5/8 bull I think I will go with the 3/4 block so I only have to buy one. There are two listed in the post above (at Baileys). The steel 3/4 is $85 or so rated at 112 ton load & 4400 working whereas the 3/4 ISC aluminum (yellow pictured) is $150 w/mas load 165 ton & working of 6600lbs. I know that the aluminum is twice the price but like the advantage of it's lighter weight and higher load/working capacity. Col2y, do you think I could go wrong getting that one or is it just plain overkill ? (is there such a thing as overkill ? )
> 
> And in trying to answer my own question now that Ive read some more regarding which knot & rope to use to affix to block up top. Since I would be buying a block capable of up to 3/4" I was thinking of using a streach of 5/8" bull that I have (or bying a piece) and using the triple fishermans bend to tie the loop. Looking at the premade slings listed in above post at Baileys .... using 1/2 inch rope to hold a dropping 3 or 4' sections of heavy Oak scares me. I know that I am kinda new to this but I would image that fatigue of hundreds of drops would eventually cause a 1/2 rope to fail. Do most climbers buy these premade slings or just make their own rope to affix block ?
> 
> really look forward to what everyone knows to be super safe for those heavy pieces.



it all depends on the size of the wood your working with but there really is no such thing as overkill, you want your rope to be the weekest link in your system so you know where your failing point is, hopfully you never experience it but the rope is the safest thing to break, as for using a knot to make a sling id advise against that becuase all knots lower the breaking strength of the rope considerably (up to 50%depending on the knot), go buy a good length sling specificly designed for this use. For the price of a sling it is a small price to pay to have peace of mind on the block. an easy shock load calculation for finding out rough weights is

(weight of the piece) x (2xdistance from centre of gravity of the peice to the block) + (weight of the piece again)

as i said its a rough estimation but it gives you an idea of how much force can be generated in a drop, 

hope this helps


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## tree MDS (Mar 6, 2009)

BCbound said:


> A cow hitch or timber hitch will work for attaching the block/pulley to the tree. If you google them you should be able to find and good demo of one.
> 
> Even better here's one of many demo's from youtube(timber hitch)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIYX1Kpu66k



That vid is complete B.S., dont listen to anything it says.

That was more like a half timber hitch - at least five tucks should be on a timber hitch, preferably 6 or more. Just not too many. the tucks, or helixes, are supposed to start wider and the get narrower gradually also.


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## Col2y (Mar 6, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> That vid is complete B.S., dont listen to anything it says.
> 
> That was more like a half timber hitch - at least five tucks should be on a timber hitch, preferably 6 or more. Just not too many. the tucks, or helixes, are supposed to start wider and the get narrower gradually also.



i thought 3 was cosher, i use a cow hitch anyway but ive seen guys (not me) use timber hitches for rigging and they put 2 turns in it, i dont trust it but the old school guys swear by it


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## tree MDS (Mar 6, 2009)

Col2y said:


> i thought 3 was cosher, i use a cow hitch anyway but ive seen guys (not me) use timber hitches for rigging and they put 2 turns in it, i dont trust it but the old school guys swear by it



I was taught 6. The booklet that came with my portawrap says "at least 5 tucks". They also recomend a cow hitch as well, I just never used it really.


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## Col2y (Mar 6, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I was taught 6. The booklet that came with my portawrap says "at least 5 tucks". They also recomend a cow hitch as well, I just never used it really.



thats good to know, i dont use it alot, i prefer the added security of a cow hitch, but if i do use it for porta wraps i usualy put about 20 wraps on it just to keep the slack out of the way, 

i think this year is the year my boss has to spring for loopies and whoopies, knots in general are a way of the past, i like knotless rigging, and i have splices in all my climbing lines, they are way stronger and faster, the only knot i tie now on a day to day basis is a Vt, and sometimes a sliding hickey when im rigging bigger wood


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 6, 2009)

*knotless rigging followup (Loopies VS Woopies)*



Col2y said:


> thats good to know, i dont use it alot, i prefer the added security of a cow hitch, but if i do use it for porta wraps i usualy put about 20 wraps on it just to keep the slack out of the way,
> 
> i think this year is the year my boss has to spring for loopies and whoopies, knots in general are a way of the past, i like knotless rigging, and i have splices in all my climbing lines, they are way stronger and faster, the only knot i tie now on a day to day basis is a Vt, and sometimes a sliding hickey when im rigging bigger wood




Col2y, I don't know the diff between a loopie and Whoopie just that it is stated generally Loopies are for up top and Whoopies are for ground apps. What specifically is the difference between the two and their specific application/s ? I see in your post above that you stated you like knotless rigging for speed. I did see a couple of pics of just wrapping the tail in a number of times, I believe it was a cow hitch, but as a newbie I am shocked that this setup holds and doesn't "loosen" up after a few times. Is this the type of rigging I would use to hold the port-a-wrap (either up top or base of tree) ?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 6, 2009)

i would use Cow +. But, on Timber Hitch...

in the ABoK knotting bible, the first 'eye' we make on first tuck (like we were going to tie a Timber Hitch) is a Half Hitch (#1662), it has a Skull icon by it to denoting a dangerous lacing. But, if we take that single tuck and extend it out to about the position bill'emDano (?:jawdropmentioned the configuration is now called a "Half Hitch with better Nip"(#1663), and has an anchor by it denoting 'reliable'. In fact when the same Half Hitch is shown ias #1707, it is noted as 'quite undependable'. This goes to the theory that the position of the tucks, is more important than the amount of the tucks. Just with this 1 tuck!! This assumes a convex, not concave or flat host/mount, that will push back on the lacing as it pushes in.

So, then, a Timber Hitch(#1665) would end in that region that Dan mentions for most final pinching security(just as a kinda half of a pile #1790 or safeStake Hitch uses the same 'loose splice'. The Pile Hitch #1815 is a delightfully superior magnificently simple lacing itself), but give several tucks/turns around self (like a loose braid/splice), to reduce the tension at the final nip/ hold fast thqat are trying to allow 'escape' pulling out of the final nip. But, decrease that force trying to escape without reducing the nip force itself/the locking force, for more security. So, by this imagery, a Timber Hitch is an 'evolved'/ improved on Half Hitch with Better Nip, that has anchor icon rating in the venerable ABoK. i prefer positive nip a lil past halfway around mount/spar. This is the side and region that pulls into spar tightest when pull comes from other side, in fact regular Half Hitch' region is pint that pulls away from pinching into spar the most!

But, also notice all 3 of these hitches are in chapter21 for pulls perpendicular to the spar. There then is a companion next chapter, that is for pulls on same spar, but inline to the spar. For when a line pull is inline to the spar, the hitch is not inline to itself and is therefore leveraged. So typically for this direction of pull we precede another hitch with a marl or other form of a half hitch to make a Timber into a Killick (shown but not named so as #1733, the first listed in chapter22 for pulls inline to a spar). i urge ye'all to try to know knots this way, at least to some point. Maybe not the nos. (though that gives assured common base in some circles); but the similarities in constructions, strengths and failures; using one to explain another.


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## BCbound (Mar 6, 2009)

Sorry if people didn't like the you tube link. There are many examples for the cow hitch or timber hitch on youtube or other sites. You need to decide which is best for your application. Tree workers aren't the only people who use these knots. So 3 raps may work for them but not for us. If your ording a block you might as well get the sling with a spliced eye at the same time. Keeps things neat and simple.

Happy climbing


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## tree MDS (Mar 6, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> http://www.animatedknots.com/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
> 
> A great site but not perfect!
> 
> ...



Nice link treeco, but it still shows a timber hitch tied improperly and using only three too tight wraps. Maybe thats how they do it in sailing or some sh!t, but I aint roping no log over a house with that. I've been roping wood sinse the early nineties (as learned by Ron Denise like we discussed) with either a clove (untill the wood gets too big), or a timber(when wood is bigger) and never lost one yet.

My timber hitch looks more like some of the drawings I've seen in the Sherrill cat. over the years. I'm pretty sure the wraps are supposed to start off wider and get narrower so that It disperses the load along the wraps gradually and there isnt such an tight bend on the first wrap causing potential rope failure.


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## moray (Mar 6, 2009)

Col2y said:


> ... an easy shock load calculation for finding out rough weights is
> 
> (weight of the piece) x (2xdistance from centre of gravity of the peice to the block) + (weight of the piece again)
> 
> as i said its a rough estimation but it gives you an idea of how much force can be generated in a drop...



Pay no attention to this dangerous advice--it is completely false!! The shock load depends on how you stop the falling load, and this fact is not even mentioned above. This subject has been discussed rather thoroughly in other threads--try the search function.


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## masiman (Mar 6, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> Col2y, I don't know the diff between a loopie and Whoopie just that it is stated generally Loopies are for up top and Whoopies are for ground apps. What specifically is the difference between the two and their specific application/s ?



This is a previous thread that talks about that.

The loopie should have the eye of adjustable part choking the eye with the load. The bend in the adjustable part will help keep the loopie from "slipping" open. You can adust the whoopie and position any way you want and it will not slip.


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## pdqdl (Mar 6, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> That vid is complete B.S., dont listen to anything it says.
> 
> That was more like a half timber hitch - at least five tucks should be on a timber hitch, preferably 6 or more. Just not too many. the tucks, or helixes, are supposed to start wider and the get narrower gradually also.



Nonsense. Perhaps someone will quote from Ashley Book Of Knots? I have NEVER put 5 tucks on a timber hitch, and I have never seen one fail, either.

It's not really important how many tucks you put in. It is of paramount importance that the tucks run around to the rear (completely opposite the holding bight) , and that the tucks are held down by the loaded line. Large trunks REQUIRE a long rope to be able reach back around to the opposite side of the trunk. Otherwise, your knot will fail, even with 5 wraps.


If you want to be really, really sure that the knot won't fail, put a stilson hitch on it. This is particularly important near the top of the spar, because it is important to be as close to the cut as possible and to remove as much slack as possible. The Stilson does not stretch out much when the log hits.

Find on this page: http://www.sherrilltree.com/Learning-Center/Knots


Regarding using a plain rope: double it up, put the block/pulley/friction device in the bend. Then treat it like a single rope with a spliced eye. Timber hitch, Stilson, whatever. Doubled rope is stronger than a splice, too.


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## Col2y (Mar 7, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> Col2y, I don't know the diff between a loopie and Whoopie just that it is stated generally Loopies are for up top and Whoopies are for ground apps. What specifically is the difference between the two and their specific application/s ? I see in your post above that you stated you like knotless rigging for speed. I did see a couple of pics of just wrapping the tail in a number of times, I believe it was a cow hitch, but as a newbie I am shocked that this setup holds and doesn't "loosen" up after a few times. Is this the type of rigging I would use to hold the port-a-wrap (either up top or base of tree) ?



loopie
http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Adjustable-Whoopie-Loopie-/std_looslg_420

whoopie
http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Adjustable-Whoopie-Loopie-/std_whoslg_ams_10

they are both fantastic tools


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## pdqdl (Mar 7, 2009)

The loopie only makes a circular loop of adjustable length. It is generally used to make a lark's head loop around a tree, leaving a loop for attachment to other stuff, often by "lark's head" to tree removal hardware on the other end of the available loop. This arrangement is probably a bit stronger than just the spliced eye on the whoopie sling.

The whoopie sling has a spliced eye on one end, and an adjustable length circular loop on the other end. It is generally used to attach hardware to the splice, and the loop to the tree.

Use either of them in the top or bottom of the tree, according to your need.

I suspect that you were referring to the Timber Hitch. It seems that an awful lot of tree workers don't trust the simple structure and buried twists, so don't think you are alone. Learn how to tie it, then experiment. It is the strongest, fastest knot available for securing a rope to a falling piece of timber. The more it is pulled, the better it holds. Simpler than a bowline and easier to untie, it is less reliable for "coming undone" until it is loaded than the bowline, which is the gold standard for reliable knots.

If you think about it, the whoopie & loopie slings work just like a timber hitch: they surround the loose end of the rope (the bitter end) with squeezing circular pressure applied from the weight of the load. Much like the timber hitch, the adjustable length slings must wrap around to the opposite side of the log to hold properly.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 10, 2009)

The Stillson is what i meant by a Cow +, or anything related. But, Timber is certainly an option, that can take less line, and can be fortified.

i think that the final nip/ hold fast/pinch of the Timber should be at the opposing face, just before half way. On a clock with clockwise turns, that then reverse to counterclockwise for the Turns around self to final nip that would be at 5 o'clock (assuming initiating pull at 12); if that is a convex location. i also think that it is best if you take a Round Turn rather than a simple Turn around the Standing (Tension) Part. The nip is for security, but the Round Turn would give both more security (lessening tension pulling free of nip) and more strength (by fortifying the Standing, rather than just deforming it).

The number of tucks can be such frictional tension reducers too, but the greatest thing is that there would be more than 2, and the position of the final nip (all at convex locations) IMLHO.


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## Bearcreek (Mar 10, 2009)

Raptor
I would recommend you go to the Bailey's website and order a few books. The Tree Climbers Companion and the Fundamentals of General Tree Work are two real good informative one's.


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