# Milling and woodworking forum???



## stipes (Mar 17, 2010)

They have a woodturning and carving forum that is great on here....There is alot of questions I have had about woodworkin,,probs. I searched off other web sites...Alot of things I enjoy makin outta my milled wood...I was wondering though,,if someone was a newbe,,and wanted to start woodworkin from their milled wood,,as is what is the first type of machine I should buy?? Surface planer,,or jointer,,,table saw,,,what good use is a radial arm saw is for....Stains,vers. dyes...Lacquer vers. polyurethane finish..Alot of times I wanted to ask on here in the milling section,,but just didnt know if it was ok to ask on here....
Milling your own wood and making things from your milled wood is great!!!I just wondered why AS dont have something for this????


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 17, 2010)

Actually, you can do it all with handtools, haven't you ever watched Roy Underhill on PBS?? lol

I assume you mean small itoms, and not building a building? If so, i'd buy a good quality table saw as my first tool!

A radial arm saw is waaaaaaay down the list, and really, with the chop saws they have today, an radial arm saw is just about obslete...

Rob


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## BobL (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm on 3 different woodworkers forums and have found the Ubeaut Aussie woodworkers forum (www.woodworkforums.com) has all that stuff in spades and more. They even have a milling section - mostly Aussies, but lots of international people too.


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## BobL (Mar 17, 2010)

stipes;2111691...I was wondering though said:


> This is the order I bought my woodworking gear.
> 1) A 1.5 HP baby combination machine with an 8" Small Table saw, 4" jointer and a doweling able - this is really just a toy. I used it for 20 years before I upgraded - I now run a thin kerf metal cutting wheel in the table saw and that is extremely useful
> 2) 12" 3HP table saw with cojoined cast iron router table. Router and saw share the same fence. This is a bit of a beast but a very useful machine - I use it a lot to cut ally! I really should not have bought this when I did.
> 3) 1HP Heavy duty Drill press - this is an excellent machine
> ...


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## dustytools (Mar 17, 2010)

Jesse, if you are interested, I can hook you up with a Delta 12 1\2 inch planer and a small Craftsman router table. I believe that the planer is due a new set of brushes but other than that they are both in good shape.


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## stipes (Mar 17, 2010)

*Thank you all!!!*



dustytools said:


> Jesse, if you are interested, I can hook you up with a Delta 12 1\2 inch planer and a small Craftsman router table. I believe that the planer is due a new set of brushes but other than that they are both in good shape.



Thanks Terry....I pretty much got everything to get by with except a lathe,,which I got lined up for in a few weeks from this man I work with that is sellin it dirt cheep....
Guess what I was gettin at is for some newbe's that want to try this as a hobbie....I never had so much enjoyment as I do millin and woodworking.....I wish I did this years ago now...I always hunted,,,fished,,,but was never so content as I am now....


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## Old Hilly (Mar 17, 2010)

Hooly-Dooly Bob, you got more goodies in your shed than I got in mine!
I have to agree though, the OZ woodworking forum is the best that I can find on the 'net. I would venture to say that if you can't find the info from someone there you would have to be looking for something really obscure.
Lots and lots of good info in there and generally a good bunch of people too.


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Hooly-Dooly Bob, you got more goodies in your shed than I got in mine!
> I have to agree though, the OZ woodworking forum is the best that I can find on the 'net. I would venture to say that if you can't find the info from someone there you would have to be looking for something really obscure.
> Lots and lots of good info in there and generally a good bunch of people too.



Plenty of goodies but unfortunately no time to use them 

I used to post a lot on the Milling forum on the OZ WWF but the scene there seems now to be dominated by Swing millers and I apart from being envious about it have little to contribute in that area.


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## Old Hilly (Mar 18, 2010)

Well, swingmills have their place but one local timber merchant simply will not buy timber that comes off a Lucas mill. He rekons the timber is always poorly cut because the mill cannot accomodate the tension in our hardwood logs. He will only buy timber that comes off a conventional sawbench. Some people might disagree, I don't know either way. I am in the process of building a bandmill so wish me luck!
Dennis.


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Well, swingmills have their place but one local timber merchant simply will not buy timber that comes off a Lucas mill. He rekons the timber is always poorly cut because the mill cannot accomodate the tension in our hardwood logs. He will only buy timber that comes off a conventional sawbench. Some people might disagree, I don't know either way. I am in the process of building a bandmill so wish me luck!
> Dennis.



It would be interesting to post that in the Oz WWF small milling section and see how the swing millers huff and puff over it!


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## BlueRider (Mar 18, 2010)

Bob hit the nail on the head when he said a bandsaw should be the first big tool purchased for a shop. It could be argued that a planer should be purchased at the same time. this would depend on if you have any hand tools such as a plane or even hand held power tools such as a belt sander. Combine these two tools with a good quality heavy duty router and you can do an amazing aray of tasks. 

Don't get too hung up on the notion of needing a table saw. If you have a good router, a hand full of bits, and a straight edge, you can do most basic joinery tasks that are usually done on a table saw. I mention this because a poor quality table saw can be more of a hinderance than a help to a beginning woodworker. I recomend saving until you can afford a good quality cabinet saw or even one of the newer hybrid saws.


Radial arm saws have gotten a bad rap in the last couple of decades. This is largely due to the poor quality of most machines made since 1980. the older machines are solid heavy duty machines, even the smaller home size machines made prior to 1970 are solid and well made . Another reason for their unpopularity is a lack of knowlede in how best to use them. For instance you can not safely use a blade from a table saw in a radial arm saw(radial arms saws require a blade with a negative hook tooth). Do a google search for "Mr sawdust book" for some good info on how to properly set up and use a vintage radial arm saw. A good older radial arm saw can do most anything that a table saw and a compound miter saw can do. For a small shop or someone on a limited budget it could be good option.

Another good source of info is from these guys:
http://www.routerworkshop.net/
I like how they take a no nonsence aproach to working with routers and don't get all caught up in complcated jigs. For instance their router fence is a board clamped at each end of the table, no micro adjust or zero clearance bs just a simple board and two clamps. 

As far as forums they can be really helpful, try woodcentral.com or finewoodworking.com

to some extent the tools you need and the order you burchase them will be largely dependent on the type of work you do. for instance here is a list of my tools in the order of most used to least used:

18" Parks bandsaw
15" MAX disk sander
12" Parks planer
Max osscilating spindle sander
24" delta Unidrill radial arm drill press
10 jet cabinet saw/52" biesemeyer fence-router mounted in table extension
6" craftsman/king-seally jointer
12" Delta model 1460 wood lathe 
full size mortice machine made in 1920
24" craftsman scroll saw
8" craftsman bench top drill press (newly restored and not yet into service)

Notice where I listed my table saw. Also I will guarantee no one on this list will list a stationary disc sander as their second most used tool. This list is very particular to me and the way I work. Your list will look very different.


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## Old Hilly (Mar 18, 2010)

Getting right back on track, yes the bandsaw would be one of the most useful tools in a woodworking shop. Get a good, strong, heavy duty machine that is bigger than you think you might need today 'cause you are going to find you need the extra size and strength when you find out just how useful and versatile that machine can be.
My next choice would be a big router set up in a decent router table. You need variable speed so you can run some of those big panel raising bits and that just about finishes up your wood cutting department. A big disc sander and a belt sander is another "must have" for finishing off some of those odd-shaped bits of wood.
You also might find a jointer and a thicknesser handy tools to have, just so you can get flat, even boards from big pieces of timber that you cut down to size on that bandsaw you just installed. 
Re-sawing on a table saw? Fergeddit! You need a (big) bandsaw for that. Or a chainsaw mill, eh Bob?
Dennis.


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## gemniii (Mar 18, 2010)

stipes said:


> Alot of things I enjoy makin outta my milled wood...I was wondering though,,if someone was a newbe,,and wanted to start woodworkin from their milled wood,,as is what is the first type of machine I should buy???


The first thing to answer is what do you want to make?
Then what else do can you do with those certain tools?
Example - If you want to make pipe bowls a high quality table saw would not be very beneficial. But if you want to make kitchen cabinets it would be very useful. 
Remember - if all you have is a Bronson rock and duct tape you can fix anything.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 18, 2010)

I guess there's some difference of opinion here... I'm a retired custom furniture/cabinet maker... I no longer sell work, but i do still have all the tools and a nice shop. In my shop i have a Newel 20" planer, 18" Woodmaster planer and a 13.5" Rockwell planer. Two Delta Unisaws, a 14" Huss table say, Rockwell jointer, 4 "floor" drill press', 2 table drill press', Delta bandsaw, Delta lathe, Delta 12" disc, 6x48" belt sander, and waaay too many other tools to name, including at least 10 routers...

If i was starting over tomorrow, for big tools, i'd buy a Unisaw tablesaw, an 8" quality jointer, and then a Woodmaster planer... in that order... Those are the tools, along with some small power tools that i could built anything i ever wanted, and are the most used tools in my past shop, and my shop today. AND i mean today, when i made a table top for my nephue...

Bandsaw is a GREAT tool, but it wouldn't replace my Unisaw... Everyone is worried about resawing, why not do it right and start out with thinner material to begin with? Buy an assortment of thickness, or mill your lumber in several thickness' in the first place...

Anyway, that's how it's worked out for me, since the 70's when i started my first cabinet shop...

Rob


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## discounthunter (Mar 18, 2010)

BobL said:


> Plenty of goodies but unfortunately no time to use them
> 
> 
> 
> bill i was going to say that. your shop is way too clean so you are like most and work for a living and dream about playing in the shop,lol


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2010)

discounthunter said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> > Plenty of goodies but unfortunately no time to use them
> ...


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I guess there's some difference of opinion here... I'm a retired custom furniture/cabinet maker... I no longer sell work, but i do still have all the tools and a nice shop. In my shop i have a Newel 20" planer, 18" Woodmaster planer and a 13.5" Rockwell planer. Two Delta Unisaws, a 14" Huss table say, Rockwell jointer, 4 "floor" drill press', 2 table drill press', Delta bandsaw, Delta lathe, Delta 12" disc, 6x48" belt sander, and waaay too many other tools to name, including at least 10 routers...


Wow - lotsa nice goodies there




> Bandsaw is a GREAT tool, but it wouldn't replace my Unisaw...


I agree, table saws do many things that bandsaws cannot do at all or do not do well, but I still think they are more useful as a first saw for a beginner.



> Everyone is worried about resawing, why not do it right and start out with thinner material to begin with? Buy an assortment of thickness, or mill your lumber in several thickness' in the first place...



This approach makes a lot of sense for people with lots of space, bandsaw mills and large quantities of logs of the same kind. But how many of us are in that league? 

Thicker wood takes up less space.
Most of us have CS mills and milling at less than ~2" with a CS mill is, IMHO, usually a waste of wood.
Irrespective of the above, unless an immediate use is being targetted, milling a rare or unusual tree into any small pieces is not a smart move
And for me, unless Aussie hardwoods are serious stacked and weighted, milling to 1" or less will often result in a bunch of pretzels.


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## TraditionalTool (Mar 18, 2010)

I would pick a band saw over a table saw. I have longed for a Yates-American snowflake (Y-30 or Y-36).

A bandsaw is way more versatile, IMO, but what do I know.

Table saws are one of the most dangerous machines in a woodworking shop, where I band saw is relatively safe, sans sawing your fingers and/or arm off...you have to account for some brains around all equipment, just that the table saw is much more dangerous in function and use.

The band saw is typically not as accurate, but I do most of my finish work with hand tools anyway.


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## TJB (Mar 18, 2010)

What tools for a wood shop. That's a question that 100 woodworkers will give you 100 different answers. I have always felt that a scroll saw is the most under used tool in a shop. Seem's like everyone has a cheap scroll saw in their shop that they bought and tried for a hour and then gave up on. I have a homebuilt chainsaw mill, a excalibur scroll saw, delta 12 inch planer, a cheap craftsman 4 inch jointer, tabletop drill press, a craftsman bench grinder with the wheels removed and sanding drums on it instead and a couple of random orbit sanders, skill saw and a craftsman bandsaw I hardly ever use in my shop. Those are all the tools I use for the scroll saw woodwork I do. Here's a few pics of the stuff I do and a link to my website if you want to see my CSM

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http://www.tjswoodshop.com


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## Brmorgan (Mar 18, 2010)

BobL said:


> discounthunter said:
> 
> 
> > I cleaned up just photo, normally my table saw is covered with chainsaws in pieces, the lathe and drill press are covered in sawdust and there are chains hanging from everywhere!
> ...


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2010)

I had an offer of a free scroll saw (from a guy who bought one and used it for a few weeks and the moved on to some other hobby) but there is unfortunately no where I can squeeze it into my shed. A couple of weeks back I managed to shoehorn a metal working lathe onto the drive way and covered it up with a sheet of plastic but SWMBO found it and I got the dagger looks again! 

Yeah I guess scroll saw work needs a scroll saw, just like pen makers and turners need a lathe of some kind so different folks will need different machines but what I see is nearly all of them can make a lot of use of a bandsaw.



TJB said:


> . . . . .Here's a few pics of the stuff I do and a link to my website if you want to see my CSM



Not really my kind of thing but I can still see the effort and craftsmanship in your work there TJB! and BTW welcome aboard the milling fun house

I checked out your cool website and I really like your CS carriage mill - I can see lots of craftsmanship there to. Unfortunately I don't have room for a carriage mill at my place but I can see some ideas in your set up that may even be useful on an alaskan mill.

I also saw on your website that you found 0.035" raker depths helped you cut faster. If you learn about progressive raker depths you'll find that fixed raker depths ) whether they're 0.025" or 0.030" or 0.035) are not the most efficient method for cutting thru the whole life of the chain. The most efficient raker depth will change constantly and substantially during the life of the chain. When the chain is new a raker depth of 0.025" will work fine but as the cutter wears, the depth needs to be increased even more, some of my chains are now running rakers of 0.045". What should not change is the cutting angle (not the same as top plate filing angle)

This can be achieved to some extent by using a Carlton File-O-Plate (FOP). There is a geeky discussion about the effectiveness of FOPs and "Cutting angle" in the chainsaw forum sticky http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=114624


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> > I don't feel so bad about using my $50 yard-sale tablesaw as a workbench anymore!
> ...


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## Cannon51 (Mar 19, 2010)

The last few years all the solid wood I have used in woodworking have come from rough sawn air dried lumber from the local band sawmill. The last project I did I used 4-3x6x10" pieces of poplar. I don't think you should start at the bandsaw or table saw but at the jointer, either hand or power. Any time I have tried to saw without establishing one flat side I have had trouble. I like to establish 2 flat/square sides at the jointer, one on the saw table and one against the fence. I then saw the desired thickness and make another pass over the jointer and back to the saw. That way each board has one true surface to work off of at the planer.
Cannon


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## Andrew96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Well guys...many good points I agree with and could quote. Choosing your set of first tools is a personal thing. After the first item (below) I'd say a GOOD, Almost big band saw, jointer, planer, then fill in the rest, but that's just me. 
However...I'd suggest my most important 'tool' in my shop...I would think it should be _Everyone's_ first addition so we can live a long long time. * Dust collection!* I noticed no one mentioned that. I won't breathe all the crap I can cut. I capture at the source and have a very clean shop (a full time one man area). Step into this millennium, realize the health risks and start off right. Collect from the source from day one.
I'd also suggest making any of your purchases your last. Buy the best quality you can afford so you only buy it once, it's cheaper that way..and you get good stuff from day one. Crappy tools are...well...just crap.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 19, 2010)

Cannon51 said:


> The last few years all the solid wood I have used in woodworking have come from rough sawn air dried lumber from the local band sawmill. The last project I did I used 4-3x6x10" pieces of poplar. I don't think you should start at the bandsaw or table saw but at the jointer, either hand or power. Any time I have tried to saw without establishing one flat side I have had trouble. I like to establish 2 flat/square sides at the jointer, one on the saw table and one against the fence. I then saw the desired thickness and make another pass over the jointer and back to the saw. That way each board has one true surface to work off of at the planer.
> Cannon



I "kind of" agree, and that's why i listed a jointer as my second tool. But a good router can be used for a jointer, and it does a decent job at it, so the tablesaw beat it out for the first spot...

A "quality" table saw is just so useful! It will last your entire wood working life, getting you started, allowing you to build your shop while you learn woodworking.

This thread seems to be turning into "name your tools"......so for dust collection: I have two in my shop, a 3hp and a 4hp and i do consider dust collection important. But, there are dust mask that work pretty well for that, so DC wouldn't be in the first 3 big purchases for me... Perhaps a good dust mask would though...

I'd get a quality table saw, because it will do so many things well, and allow you to get started... There's an amazing amount of things a good table saw will do...

A jointer for all the reasons Cannon stated. It's an important tool, as it will get that piece of wood flat, with a good straight edge on it... Good quality projects start out with quality square cuts with a good surface.

And a Woodmaster planer, as it's a GREAT planer that will also sand and make moulding. Most importantly it will take that rough stock and quickly make it into some useful, either smooth and flat or if needed, just make it thinner. The knives are easy to access for sharpening too... Also, did i mention that it's American made? 

Rob


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## BobL (Mar 19, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> However...I'd suggest my most important 'tool' in my shop...I would think it should be _Everyone's_ first addition so we can live a long long time. * Dust collection!* I noticed no one mentioned that.



Try post #4.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yup, missed that BobL. I'd like it higher on the list though it is sort of a given...even if it's a mask, or a system.


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## Manuka Jock (Mar 19, 2010)

BobL said:


> Plenty of goodies but unfortunately no time to use them
> 
> I used to post a lot on the Milling forum on the OZ WWF but the scene there seems now to be dominated by Swing millers and I apart from being envious about it have little to contribute in that area.



Yeah , swing-millers who operate a particular manufacturer's mills .
I attribute it to misplaced nationalism.


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## BobL (Mar 19, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Yup, missed that BobL. I'd like it higher on the list though it is sort of a given...even if it's a mask, or a system.



Wow dust - my favorite subject.
I agree a dust handling system of some kind should be a given significant priority and ideally should come with any first power tool and increase in capacity as your shop grows.

Dust is a significant part of my day job where I'm in charge of a 4500 sq ft ultraclean laboratory/facility, used amongst other things to handle and analyse space dust, polar ice and snow and other environmental samples. I was on the team that designed and supervised the building of this facility starting some 10 years ago. The whole area is about 10 times cleaner than a normal hospital operating theatre and parts of it are 100 times cleaner. This is what part of it looks like.





Why am I telling you all this? What I'm trying to say here is I have a well developed "sense of dust" just like some people have a well developed sense of smell. When I look at a scene whether it's inside or outside I can visualize the possible dust involved. Paint and finishes constantly decay, fabrics and bare wooden surfaces, even stone and bricks constantly decay and make dust just sitting there. Then where there is human activity, like just walking or sitting there's dust just pouring off people (the USA airforce have measured that the human body alone makes around 100,000 bits of dust each hour), then we ratchet up a notch to internal combustion engines where the dust just pours out of them, and finally to very dusty activities like mining, agriculture and building. 

The sort of dust I'm referring to is not just the stuff you can see but the stuff humans cannot see. This turns out to be very significant for wood workers and CS operators because the human eye cannot see the very fine dust that can harm our health. There is some benefit in not being able to see all dust because normal suburban air contains around 10 million particles of dust per cubic ft and if it was all visible we could not see more than a distance of several ft. We constantly breath this stuff in and fortunately again we breathe it out again. Dust direct from humans (mostly bits of skin) and most natural materials our bodies can cope with as we have been living with this stuff for millions of years. More modern domestic and industrial dust is something we have not thought about too much. 

When I look a CS miller in action I can of course see the dust from the wood and if any, the blue smoke from the CS exhaust, but also visualise the invisible dust particles pouring out from it that others cannot see. The 2 stroke lubes of today make the exhaust look less smokey than old school lube but it's not actually that much less dusty, it's just turned more of the visible particles (ie smoke) into invisible particles. This is why I do not advocate the use of low ratio mixes because the operator is effectively constantly sitting in a cloud of invisible dust.

In a wood workshop the bare wood just sitting there is very slowly decomposing makes dust, Sawdust has a greater surface area than wood so it makes more dust again. Different activities in a shop make different ranges of dust. Hand tools tend to make bigger (less dangerous) dust whereas power tools make finer dust and machines make finer dust still. Blunt tools make more fine dust than shap. Different woods and materials make different ranges of dust. eg sanding MDF makes a lot of invisible particles.

Most shop dust collectors are not dust collectors at all they are sawdust collectors. They collect visible dust and continually recycle the invisible dust back into your shop effectively continually increasing the level of invisible dust inside your shop. The simplest solution to this is to put the dust collector outside the shop. Now I know this does not work for you guys in colder climates otherwise you lose your heated air in winter. In this case if you want to keep low levels of dust in your shed then a device like a cyclone with an industrial grade HEPA filter is about the only way to do it (see http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm). While those (supposed HEPA) air filter units that hang from your ceiling are better than nothing, they simply do not have sufficient directed air flow to keep up with the rate of dust generation of any power tool. You can't see it but every time you fire up a power tool it creates a cloud of invisible dust that hangs in the air for many hours or even days so dust collectors wired direct to machines that go on and off accordingly are also not a good idea. As soon as I start a machine I start my DC and then leave it on for at least 20 minutes afterwards so that it empties the shed of invisible dust.

BTW I have lost my sense of smell twice, once for 6 weeks and another time for a few days, from using MDF and it was almost certainly the dust and chemicals in the MDF dust that did. All beer and most food tasted foul, it was horrible. Now when I handle MD I use a dust mask that supplies finely filtered air to a fully covered head shroud. Even with this filter for several days after using MDF I have this constant faint lingering smell of BBQ sauce in my nose.


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## Andrew96 (Mar 20, 2010)

I can only say Wow. You really get yourself into some interesting projects, thanks for sharing.


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## gemniii (Sep 14, 2010)

Well I looked for a thread that discussed planers, and ran across this one. 

I'm about to purchase/search for a small planer and as always want the best for the buck.

I don't presently have a lot of room in the shop or wallet so I'm looking for something portable in the sub 15" range, sub- $1000, 15amp or less.

I'm figuring after I retire I can get something larger so this wiil be a secondary one eventually.

Any recommendations?


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## mtngun (Sep 14, 2010)

I've got the Rigid 13" planer from Home Depot. Price was right, and it does the job for a weekend warrior like me. I doubt if it would hold up to constant use, so if I ever have time to do lots of woodworking, an upgrade may be in order.


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## Timberframed (Sep 14, 2010)

As far as planers go I favor this 1981 6" x 13" over my 1959 9" x 18" wedgebed for it gets used more often than the other. Triple belt drive 220 volts and just try and stop it for a machine in this class. 617 lbs so long boards 20' or < need not be supported. 



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