# $9.14 to $14.23 An Hour



## slowp (Sep 28, 2010)

In today's paper, precommercial thinning and tree planting jobs are advertised. The thinning pays $9.14 to $12.29 an hour and the planting maxes out at $14.23 an hour. 

For planting, one is supposed to be able to plant 800 trees per day at the end of the first week, 900 the second week and then be up to 1000 trees a day by the end of the third week. 

I have always questioned the quality of 1000 trees a day planted with a shovel. Must be really nice ground.

They will provide motel rooms at no cost and transportation. 

It is two different reforestation companies. 95 openings. opcorn:


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## 2dogs (Sep 28, 2010)

Not exactly family living wages. Home Depot illegals earn $10.00 an hour cash.

1000 trees per 8 hour shift = 125 per hour or less than 30 seconds per tree with a shovel.


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## dingeryote (Sep 28, 2010)

2dogs said:


> Not exactly family living wages. Home Depot illegals earn $10.00 an hour cash.
> 
> 1000 trees per 8 hour shift = 125 per hour or less than 30 seconds per tree with a shovel.



The wages are on par with the average for factory work when it still existed here. 

Conditions and rate are another matter.

Several of my farm workers are capable of making 17-18 bucks an hour on piece rate and the conditions are much, much,better.

30 seconds per tree for 8 hours is a hell of a clip to maintain on sloped and uneven ground. God Help 'em if it's rocky and strewn with limbs and such.
I don't think they are looking for reliable labor, that will stick around for long enough to reach that rate.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Jacob J. (Sep 28, 2010)

It may be that there's a base rate for the planters plus an incentive for how many trees they plant. Here the planters get $11/hr. plus $0.07 per tree.


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## dingeryote (Sep 28, 2010)

Jacob J. said:


> It may be that there's a base rate for the planters plus an incentive for how many trees they plant. Here the planters get $11/hr. plus $0.07 per tree.



That would make more sense, and beat the hell out of picking cucumbers or strawberries.LOL!!! 

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Rudedog (Sep 28, 2010)

I would rather be a Cop with TreeCo and Chowdozer riding with me and supervising me the entire shift than do that kind of work for that kind of money.


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## madhatte (Sep 28, 2010)

The planting crew we've hired the last several years have had the same field bosses and almost 1/2 of the same planters from year to year. The get these spendy shovels from some outfit in Castle Rock that last forever, and plant 14,000 trees a day at >90% inspected quality for 100% pay. I don't know what the individual worker gets paid, but I've been nothing short of awed every time I've worked with them. 

Fun part is that I speak a bit of Spanish, they all speak marginal English, and the Silviculturist doesn't speak any _Espanol_ at all, so we just bust on each other all day. Keeps both pace and spirits up.


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## Rudedog (Sep 28, 2010)

madhatte said:


> The planting crew we've hired the last several years have had the same field bosses and almost 1/2 of the same planters from year to year. The get these spendy shovels from some outfit in Castle Rock that last forever, and plant 14,000 trees a day at >90% inspected quality for 100% pay. I don't know what the individual worker gets paid, but I've been nothing short of awed every time I've worked with them.
> 
> Fun part is that I speak a bit of Spanish, they all speak marginal English, and the Silviculturist doesn't speak any _Espanol_ at all, so we just bust on each other all day. Keeps both pace and spirits up.



Sounds to me that someone is really earning their pay.


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## slowp (Sep 28, 2010)

Rudedog said:


> I would rather be a Cop with TreeCo and Chowdozer riding with me and supervising me the entire shift than do that kind of work for that kind of money.



I made school money planting on the weekends. I think we made $3.50 an hour which was better than what the orchardists paid. You need to be young to do it. It is especially tiring when you have to hike in. We worked in areas that had burned so sometimes found some big rocks to roll and knock snags over...not productive, but fun.


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## madhatte (Sep 28, 2010)

Our ground is all nice and flat, but gravelly. It's kind of a mixed blessing, I guess.


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## 2dogs (Sep 28, 2010)

madhatte said:


> The planting crew we've hired the last several years have had the same field bosses and almost 1/2 of the same planters from year to year. The get these spendy shovels from some outfit in Castle Rock that last forever, and plant 14,000 trees a day at >90% inspected quality for 100% pay. I don't know what the individual worker gets paid, but I've been nothing short of awed every time I've worked with them.
> 
> Fun part is that I speak a bit of Spanish, they all speak marginal English, and the Silviculturist doesn't speak any _Espanol_ at all, so we just bust on each other all day. Keeps both pace and spirits up.



Illegals?


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## madhatte (Sep 29, 2010)

2dogs said:


> Illegals?



Are you assuming for some reason that they're Mexican? 

I keed, I keed. Sort of. 

I planted a bit when I was younger, and also did horrible mid-winter reprod surveys for $3/plot. Just being out in the lousy Northwest winter weather is a Badge of Honor. Most sane folks would _at least_ grab an umbrella. I'm out there all year, and I work pretty hard. Loggers work harder than I do. Planters also work harder than I do. I respect both.

Illegals? Not a one on this particular crew. These folks are legit, and should be held up as an example for any would-be immigrants as to how to conduct business. I'm pretty sure most of the returnees are naturalized citizens, or are working toward it. I know the crew boss I was talking to this spring is, and is planning on going to community college as time and finances allow. He also works on a contract fire crew out of central Oregon during the summers. 

You'll be surprised who you meet in the woods.


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## Gologit (Sep 29, 2010)

slowp said:


> In today's paper, precommercial thinning and tree planting jobs are advertised. The thinning pays $9.14 to $12.29 an hour and the planting maxes out at $14.23 an hour.
> 
> For planting, one is supposed to be able to plant 800 trees per day at the end of the first week, 900 the second week and then be up to 1000 trees a day by the end of the third week.
> 
> ...



What was the name of the company doing the thinning? Just curious. We had one down here that low-balled it's way into some contracts, screwed them up royally, and disappeared. They scooped up a serious amount of work doing roadside hazard tree removal and made quite a name for themselves, which I can't repeat here. Me and a couple of other guys have made some good money going back through their work areas and fixing their mistakes. Their favorite thing was to face up a tree, start to back it up, and wind up leaving the bar pinched in the wood...with the tree still standing. Then they'd just leave it. We're starting a bent-bar collection. They had white vans, shopped at 7-11 very early in the morning, and listened to mariachi music a lot.


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## floyd (Sep 29, 2010)

It appears you haven't planted too much. Steep ground is easier to plant.Don't have to bend over as far.


Yrs ago this "forester' asked us what we wanted to do an a 60% unit. Go straight up & down? He had a problem understanding "the line" as well.


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## slowp (Sep 29, 2010)

There are two ads for two companies. Sierra Reforestation and Mt. St. Helens Reforestation are the two. You can also get information at the unemployment offices in our fair state.


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## slowp (Sep 29, 2010)

floyd said:


> It appears you haven't planted too much. Steep ground is easier to plant.Don't have to bend over as far.
> 
> 
> Yrs ago this "forester' asked us what we wanted to do an a 60% unit. Go straight up & down? He had a problem understanding "the line" as well.



The exception to this would be sticking trees in behind an auger operator. I never ran the auger--too smart and too short, but it would have been harder to do on steep ground. That year, we planted behind it, and you found a nice stick with a blunt end to tamp in the dirt. Even though there was more bending over for us planters, it was easier than the hoedad method.


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## madhatte (Sep 29, 2010)

Also depends on the seedlings. Alders, for example, are long enough that it's pretty easy to heel them in without bending over. Some 2x2 DF are, as well.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 29, 2010)

madhatte said:


> The planting crew we've hired the last several years have had the same field bosses and almost 1/2 of the same planters from year to year. The get these spendy shovels from some outfit in Castle Rock that last forever, and plant 14,000 trees a day at >90% inspected quality for 100% pay. I don't know what the individual worker gets paid, but I've been nothing short of awed every time I've worked with them.
> 
> Fun part is that I speak a bit of Spanish, they all speak marginal English, and the Silviculturist doesn't speak any _Espanol_ at all, so we just bust on each other all day. Keeps both pace and spirits up.




I have had the same expereince and loved every minute, only it was on a fancy Pinot Noir vineyard in OR and they had fake papers, but (most of them) great great folks, and I don't give a damn myself, I've had a fortunate upbringing in this country and will gladly pay some extra taxes for the benefit of some nice folks trying to make better for themselves. But then again I might just be some pinko commie timberfaller. ####, my grandma was BORN in North Dakota on a homestead and only spoke Norwegian till she went to school! We're all immigrants, except for a few with some native blood.

The mexis, they all cleaned and sharpened their pruners every night! They'd gteach the new guys the tricks to perform better and faster at night so they'd be ready for their first day. I'd love to get some of them out to work the brush for me!


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## hammerlogging (Sep 29, 2010)

Gologit said:


> What was the name of the company doing the thinning? Just curious. We had one down here that low-balled it's way into some contracts, screwed them up royally, and disappeared. They scooped up a serious amount of work doing roadside hazard tree removal and made quite a name for themselves, which I can't repeat here. Me and a couple of other guys have made some good money going back through their work areas and fixing their mistakes. Their favorite thing was to face up a tree, start to back it up, and wind up leaving the bar pinched in the wood...with the tree still standing. Then they'd just leave it. We're starting a bent-bar collection. They had white vans, shopped at 7-11 very early in the morning, and listened to mariachi music a lot.



But, just the same, I can sure see how this sort of BS could really piss me off too! At least you ended up with the work anyhow, in the end. Oh life, such is life, complicated, if you let it be.


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## 2dogs (Sep 29, 2010)

I have nothing against Hispanics, like my wife and kids, but I do NOT like taxpayer money paying the wages of illegal aliens. It is against the law to hire illegals no matter how nice they are.


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## madhatte (Sep 30, 2010)

2dogs said:


> It is against the law to hire illegals.



That's the very definition of "illegal".


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## slowp (Sep 30, 2010)

The crews that get the federal contracts are supposed to have proof (A-9s) that their people are legally in the country. Not citizens, but legally in the country. 

Just read an article where farmers in S. Collyfonia tried to hired unemployed US citizens, had a big outreach, and got six people who tried the work. Our citizens just don't want to or can't do hard physical labor anymore. It doesn't even seem to matter what the pay is. 

I would drool at the lunches the planting crews had. We had road access so two guys would head up to their vans early. They'd have one or two large cast iron pans full of premixed meat, beans, peppers, etc. with tortillas on the side. They'd heat it up. I would smell it as I ate my boring sandwich. 

On one winter logging job, they hired those guys to shovel out the trees that had to be felled by chainsaw, and the shovelers sold and traded lunchtime burritos to the loggers. A few of the shovelers impressed the loggers and were running some equipment later.


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## 2dogs (Sep 30, 2010)

slowp said:


> Just read an article where farmers in S. Collyfonia tried to hired unemployed US citizens, had a big outreach, and got six people who tried the work. Our citizens just don't want to or can't do hard physical labor anymore. It doesn't even seem to matter what the pay is.



You are right about this. It isn't just socal either. It is impossible to find Americans to do the kind of hard work needed to keep "our" country running. Agiculture would collapse without Mexican labor. Our local university has a few protests each year about farm labor and how hard the work is. The funny thing is, not one of the 14,000 or so students works in agriculture. They will eat the Brussell sprouts but they will not work for them.

There is a shortage of workers here and I expect it is the same everywhere. It is much more difficult to cross the border these days. Many workers return to Mexico for a month at Christmas and the farms are like ghost towns. 

Like I said I have nothing against the people. However anyone committing a crime should expect punishment.


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## Jacob J. (Sep 30, 2010)

2dogs said:


> You are right about this. It isn't just socal either. It is impossible to find Americans to do the kind of hard work needed to keep "our" country running. Agiculture would collapse without Mexican labor. Our local university has a few protests each year about farm labor and how hard the work is. The funny thing is, not one of the 14,000 or so students works in agriculture. They will eat the Brussell sprouts but they will not work for them.
> 
> There is a shortage of workers here and I expect it is the same everywhere. It is much more difficult to cross the border these days. Many workers return to Mexico for a month at Christmas and the farms are like ghost towns.
> 
> Like I said I have nothing against the people. However anyone committing a crime should expect punishment.



The big problem here with the illegals working on forestry and agriculture sites is that the law is applied "selectively". I.e., some companies get away with it while others are raided constantly by INS. A farm down the road from me routinely employs 20-30 illegals a year and is overlooked. The farm owner is a good friend of one of the county commissioners and the incumbent county sheriff. I personally don't have a beef against him because he runs a clean, tight operation and keeps firm control over his people. His workers are always good to me and they don't interfere or trespass with us neighbors (this is a very small community.) 

One of the local forestry contractors routinely employs 20-30 illegals and is regularly busted by INS. The company owner there usually claims ignorance and is slapped on the wrist but has to find a new crew on a regular basis. 

In both cases though, the operations wouldn't even exist without migrant labor (legal and illegal) simply because no local people want to do the work.


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## Hddnis (Oct 2, 2010)

Part of that is because they made it illegal to hire school children to work on farms and now kids grow up thinking that sitting in front of a computer is hard work. Average kid today watches you pick up a five gallon bucket of water and they way "Wow! How can you lift that?!!?!!?" There are those of us that hear them and are thinking "It's damn easy and you aren't really working till you are carrying three more just like it at the same time, son."

Classic example is a kid that is going to major in video game creation--his lifelong dream. He refuses to help his dad with even the most basic yard work. Daddy is going to pay for his school. If I were daddy he'd get to earn his way through school, doing hard menial labor at low wages.




Mr. HE


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## hammerlogging (Oct 2, 2010)

2dogs said:


> Like I said I have nothing against the people. However anyone committing a crime should expect punishment.



I understand, and see how if you are operating legally, with immigrants or not, and are competing against people operating illegally, that it is unfair and unjust. One ought to do the right thing.


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## Gologit (Oct 3, 2010)

2dogs said:


> You are right about this. It isn't just socal either. It is impossible to find Americans to do the kind of hard work needed to keep "our" country running. Agiculture would collapse without Mexican labor. Our local university has a few protests each year about farm labor and how hard the work is. The funny thing is, not one of the 14,000 or so students works in agriculture. They will eat the Brussell sprouts but they will not work for them.
> 
> There is a shortage of workers here and I expect it is the same everywhere. It is much more difficult to cross the border these days. Many workers return to Mexico for a month at Christmas and the farms are like ghost towns.
> 
> Like I said I have nothing against the people. However anyone committing a crime should expect punishment.



Good post. One of the things I see way too often are the Hispanic workers being exploited in order to keep production costs down. They're often illegals who, after doing whatever job they've signed on to do, are abandoned by their employers or deliberately set up for capture and deportation...often without receiving their full pay. Can't happen in America? Yes it can. And it does. All too often it's their fellow countrymen who screw them over.

I saw this first hand earlier this year. The labor contractor, Hispanic, who turned out to be the cousin of the owner, also Hispanic, of a "tree service", grabbed the money and ran. He'd had contracts with three different government agencies yet still managed to employ a crew that was 100% illegal. He left behind about a dozen bewildered non English-speaking workers, some clapped out old vans and junk equipment. The owner disappeared, too. The workers, broke and hungry, were deported. The owner and his cousin surfaced briefly in southern Oregon trying to gather a crew but haven't been heard of since.

I don't have the answers to the immigration problem and I'm not sure anybody really does. Simplistic solutions aren't working and all the money and manpower we've thrown at the problem aren't fixing anything either.

I agree that, in agriculture especially, very little would get done without migrant labor. But when the very governmental agencies who complain the loudest about the illegal worker problem choose to ignore the problem and the plight of both the workers and those who hire them I don't see any resolution any time soon.

And...does _anybody_ really eat Brussel sprouts?


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## forestryworks (Oct 3, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Good post. One of the things I see way too often are the Hispanic workers being exploited in order to keep production costs down. They're often illegals who, after doing whatever job they've signed on to do, are abandoned by their employers or deliberately set up for capture and deportation...often without receiving their full pay. Can't happen in America? Yes it can. And it does. All too often it's their fellow countrymen who screw them over.
> 
> I saw this first hand earlier this year. The labor contractor, Hispanic, who turned out to be the cousin of the owner, also Hispanic, of a "tree service", grabbed the money and ran. He'd had contracts with three different government agencies yet still managed to employ a crew that was 100% illegal. He left behind about a dozen bewildered non English-speaking workers, some clapped out old vans and junk equipment. The owner disappeared, too. The workers, broke and hungry, were deported. The owner and his cousin surfaced briefly in southern Oregon trying to gather a crew but haven't been heard of since.
> 
> ...



Great post!


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## slowp (Oct 3, 2010)

Hey Gologit! Can you PM me the name of the guy? Just in case?

I thought only the orchardists played that game. Also that they couldn't do that anymore because word gets back to Mexico and nobody will work for them.

Guatemala is the place that the brush pickers come from. One was shot by a hunter last week. His family is up here and does not speak Spanish. They speak a Mayan or Indian language. The hunters at least turned themselves in and one was arrested. They were hunting bears. I doubt the family is here legally. Our cop says there is a coyote in our part of the state, with connections in Guatemala. 

Those guys and girls seem to have a van wreck every few years and get killed. They look very young, but have to prove they are 18 or over to get a permit. They pick Salal all day, bundle it up, and carry big, heavy, pack like stacks of Salal back to the van. I do not know what they get paid. I doubt it is very much. Their vans have removable seats so they can really fill them up with brush, and then find a tiny space to hunker. 

The Sacramento Bee wrote a scathing article about them. It blamed the Forest Service for the wrecks and working conditions. Which made no sense.

I have no idea how to cook Brussel Sprouts, or artichokes.

I heard the famous TV loggers who yell at their workers all the time are logging in my neighborhood. I heard a feller buncher in the distance yesterday morning. Their trucks have been seen on our county road.


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## Gologit (Oct 3, 2010)

No need for a PM...I'll put the names out right here. The contractor/owner, used the last name of Gonzales but spelled it differently on almost every piece of paperwork. Central Tree Service, Northern Reforestation, Gonzales Tree Work, and a couple of other company names were used. There is probably a lot more to this but the civil servants who hired this clown are busily covering their tracks. And, realistically, I don't think much will ever come of it.

And you're right about a lot of the workers coming from countries other than Mexico. Most of the Mexicans are wise to the scams and they communicate and network with each other on who's doing what. The workers from further south haven't had the experience or opportunity to know when they're being screwed...until it's a done deal.

There needs to be some level of accountability established or I don't see this situation ending any time soon.

And Brussel sprouts? I ate one once. Once.


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## Hddnis (Oct 3, 2010)

I'm sure some of you have seen the labor camps, but for those that have not...


The only way to describe them is living in a hell hole; dirty and stinky like you can't imagine. A ten by twelve bedroom will sleep twelve men. An old shop will sleep two hundred at night and not have a single bathroom. Cooking is done on camp stoves, hot plates, and open fires inside and outside the buildings. The smell of the food and smoke mixes with the smell of human sweat and waste. Their clothes are often a greasy black color from lack of washing. 

When working the fields, that's right picking your food, they will relieve themselves right there. The men pull it out and go, and the women let it run down their legs, if a more solid form of relief is needed they squat and go. Children live in the same conditions and behave the same way. Hand washing and toilet paper are non-existent. 

Many of them have cell phones, but they never call the cops, not even in life and death situations, cell phones just tell them where the work is. Appendicitis will kill them because they don't know to go to the hospital. Fights are not uncommon and knife wounds leave nasty scars. Often infection is worse than the injury and death is basically no big deal. Bodies will sit for days before someone buries with them without any ceremony.

You don't think of people ever living like that in this country, but it happens everyday in illegal labor camps all over the west and south. Seeing first hand breaks your heart and makes you angry. How can this happen here? Sometimes what you see as a cop just can't be unseen, the images haunt you forever. Dirty faces of children sitting in torn clothes playing with dirty sticks and pretending they are dolls, while their dead father lies on a plywood "bed" next to them.

After you get past that layer of illegals you come to the ones that are "working the system" Little wonder that they will, the quality of life is so much better for them.

That is where we pay for a house for them. The people density per square foot drops at least 80%. The housing has electric or gas ranges. There are toilets. Medical care is a trip to the ER. The welfare worker gets clothes for the babies, clothes for the kids, clothes for the parents and clothes for the grandparents. Food stamps free up cash to buy beer and tobacco, and to eat food from taco wagons, next they get the big TV. Soon life is so good they don't need to work at all. You can always push some drugs for a little spending money. They live the same as those in the housing projects; all of that on the backs of taxpayers. This group makes a lot of calls for the cops, thefts, domestics, fights, stolen cars, missing kids, OD's, shootings, you name it.

Of course there are the legals that work hard and play by the rules. I count many among my friends and family and they have my respect. There is irony in how little needs to be said about them, we all know them and they are an ongoing part of what built this nation. Give us your poor, your tired, your hungry, and we'll give them a chance to live in freedom and peace. I love this nation, but I hate the disease within her.





Mr. HE


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## dingeryote (Oct 3, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> I'm sure some of you have seen the labor camps, but for those that have not...
> 
> 
> The only way to describe them is living in a hell hole; dirty and stinky like you can't imagine. A ten by twelve bedroom will sleep twelve men. An old shop will sleep two hundred at night and not have a single bathroom. Cooking is done on camp stoves, hot plates, and open fires inside and outside the buildings. The smell of the food and smoke mixes with the smell of human sweat and waste. Their clothes are often a greasy black color from lack of washing.
> ...




It sounds horrible, but nobody is forcing them to come here and work in those conditions. They have a country of thier own, and the ability to make it better and as good as any other if they wanted to.

As for the labor camp conditions, I gotta call bull####.

Name any other employer that is required to provide housing for thier labor force, and maintain housing to a standard that is better than most private homes, or face fines and criminal charges.

The illegals live like that by choice.
If they wanted better housing and working conditions they wouldn't have hired on with some douchebag outfit. Then again only the douchebag outfits ignore the I-9 and knowingly hire the illegals.
The ICE and USDA crackdowns, have FORCED Illegals and thier employers into this, and if it's horrible, all they have to do is swim back over the river.


The field sanitation requirements have gotten to be a complete joke thanks to the West coast Douchebags that hire the illegals. It's still openly ignored by those #######s out west, and for some reason they are not getting clobbered for it, and the number of USDA audits elsewhere have doubled.

One porta john with a running water and soap handwashing station for every 25 workers located within a 5 min. walk or 1/4 mile whichever is closer, all use of the facilities is monitored to ensure the handwashing policy is enforced.
Most guys will have 2-3 for every 25, and have them mounted on trailers to keep closer to the pickers, and keep downtime to a Min. and ensure the pickers are hydrating.

Yet the backwards assed Illegals wont use the supplied facilities most times, because it takes time away from picking, so they just squat right there with a Tomato in each hand like they did back home where the practice is normal.
Even the migrants on permit will sneak a leak, and ya gotta catch 'em, It's just stupid .


Jackass outfits that skirt the regs, hire Illegals because they will work cheaper, because the better outfits wont have them.


If west coast growers and labor outfits are getting away with what you describe, drop a dime to the USDA, FDA, and make sure the whole bunch get locked up and thier employer is hammered. They make life miserable for everyone and need to be slapped hard!


To make a comparison, I am disallowed from letting my own dogs in my fields because of the potential for fecal contamination, and am audited annually for compliance...just one dog terd found, and we fail the audit, face potential fines and are no longer able to sell our fruit except to the poor paying secondary markets.
It ain't just Pooch terds either...compliance costs with the other requirements are insane. 

All of this nonsense started with the idiots on the west coast, shipping human bio contaminated fruit and veggies back in the 90's, and then they fudged thier traceback documentation to cover thier butts.
Big growers that were audited, were buying produce off the books from hacks and labeling it as thiers or part of thier import operation, whichever worked better for them.

If they are still getting away with what you describe, while elsewhere Minutia is resulting in fines, there is a bigger problem, but explains why there are so many more Illegals on the coast.
They still have willing employers, and the USDA/FDA are still overlooking the matter.



Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Hddnis (Oct 3, 2010)

dingeryote, The camps are totally illegal and were dutifully reported to state and federal agencies. Follow up by both levels was minimal at best. What I describe about the camps I've seen first hand. The practices in the fields I've seen first hand and heard about from famers many times. 

The farms do a pretty good job of providing proper facilities, but as you said the workers don't use them. The farms don't run these labor camps, they are run by mexican "unions", basically mexicans making slaves of other mexicans. A camp won't last more than a couple of weeks at most. Often the location is a vacant building and they are trespassing to camp there. 

Wild animals run freely through fields out here and FDA rules specifically allow percentages of animal wastes, bug parts, dirt, etc in processed foods and grains. Fresh market is tighter controls, but a field still has wild animals running through it all day and night and they mess too. I've never heard of a dog turd shutting down a harvest, ever.

If you don't like the inspections and audits you face over there that is your problem to deal with. Vote in some people who will stick up for you and get the monkey off your back. It'd be great if there was a quick sensible solution to all the problems, but the truth is that the mess is so deep now it will take some time to sort out and make right.



Mr. HE


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## Mike44665 (Oct 3, 2010)

I’m not pointing a finger at anyone here, but I’m sure you all remember the words that when the Delphi fiasco started it was good that those over paid people got what was coming to them and so be it. A lot of people thought it would not affect them, but it has, all over this country.

Look at any empty factory that paid good wages, you may think; well they priced themselves right out of a job. Here is another view you might consider, just think how much those employees paid in payroll taxes and what the employer paid as well. That income for OUR government is gone forever. People that encourage and finically support companies to move production off shore govern us, and we stand of it. They, congress, are off shoring their own incomes, the fools.

And how does this government support companies like Delphi or any company moving off shore. For one it is called the MRT, Morris Relief Tax. Ever hear of it? So lets say the big operation in your town makes bathtubs. They have been there for going on 30 years. They close and move to China. They sell the facility for a cool 20 million dollars, and with the MRT they DO NOT, repeat do not, claim that 20 mil as income on their taxes, such a deal.

If you are in the market for a nice GM ½ ton pickup made in Pontiac MI it will run you 35-40 grand made by the high cost American labor at $70.00 all in. Oh you don’t want a pickup you want a Chevy Avalanche, well it will still run you 35-40 grand and it is made in Mexico by the $5.00 all in labor. Who is screwing whom?

George Washington and the rest of them are spinning in their graves.


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## 2dogs (Oct 3, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> Great post!



No it wasn't! He dissed Brussells sprouts, one of the sacred foods like artichokes and brocolli.


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## 056 kid (Oct 3, 2010)

2dogs said:


> No it wasn't! He dissed Brussells sprouts, one of the sacred foods like artichokes and brocolli.



WHO dissed on Brussells sprouts??

There is something we have in common, don,t forget Cauliflowers!!!!
MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm. yum.


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## slowp (Oct 4, 2010)

056 kid said:


> WHO dissed on Brussells sprouts??
> 
> There is something we have in common, don,t forget Cauliflowers!!!!
> MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmm. yum.



Ok, we've run down Brussell Sprouts. Now tell us how to cook them so they are edible. I don't even think they have them in our local (within 20 miles) stores.


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## dingeryote (Oct 4, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> dingeryote, The camps are totally illegal and were dutifully reported to state and federal agencies. Follow up by both levels was minimal at best. What I describe about the camps I've seen first hand. The practices in the fields I've seen first hand and heard about from famers many times.
> 
> The farms do a pretty good job of providing proper facilities, but as you said the workers don't use them. The farms don't run these labor camps, they are run by mexican "unions", basically mexicans making slaves of other mexicans. A camp won't last more than a couple of weeks at most. Often the location is a vacant building and they are trespassing to camp there.
> 
> ...



HE,

I'm on your side in all of this. The disparity of enforcement is what I'm trying to illustrate. Most folks don't see these Illegals bieng used as slave labor by other Illegals and part of the Narco trafficking machine.

We get that sort of crap coming into the area now and then, but we have an established cultural practice here, of providing housing and re-hiring familys that are either Citizens or on permit. Illegals with a Honcho selling thier labor, get run out of town quick because they have the effect of lowering wages for the legit migrants. 

It's ridiculously easy for an Ag. employer to get his Mexican workers a work permit. Folks do NOT realize that either.

The USDA is responding to the public outcry(Media induced panic), in a very regionally selective manner, as is the produce industry. There isn't much anyone can do at this point, because it has already been done. There seems to be enough political and criminal influence out west, that the matter will continue to be a problem, and elsewhere the kneejerk reaction from DC will continue to be a costly and pointless PITA.

Wild critters are an issue everywhere. If there is a "Wildlife Mitigation policy" in place that meets USDA approval and audit, that is all that is needed and it is up to the auditor to decide if in fact it is adequate. Having a mob of wild hogs running rampant through fields and contaminating produce with choliform willy nilly is a little different than the occaisional Coyote terd they require to be dealt with here. Again, regionally selective enforcement.

It's no surprise the matter your office handed over to ICE/USDA was met with a yawn. But thanks anyway,it is appreciated, and I'm glad to hear it's still just the Feds dropping the ball by choice.

If the Illegal immigration issue was tied to the reality of the slavery issue, and thrown in peoples faces as much as the "Immigrants rights" hysteria, both issues could finally be dealt with in a constructive manner, and we could get the food supply cleaned up without making growers crazy and broke.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## dingeryote (Oct 4, 2010)

slowp said:


> Ok, we've run down Brussell Sprouts. Now tell us how to cook them so they are edible. I don't even think they have them in our local (within 20 miles) stores.



Patty,

Start with 2 cups Fresh sprouts. Wash 'em good to get the sand out.

Chop up 3-4 strips of bacon and mince 3-4 cloves of garlic and half of a small sweet onion. Sautee' the onion and garlic in a drizzle of olive oil, with the bacon, untill the onion is clear and garlic starting to carmelize, then toss in the sprouts, add 1/4 cup of Orange juice, turn the heat to simmer and cover.

Stir every 5 Min, untill the sprouts are tender.
The acid and sugar in the OJ offsets the bitter in the sprouts.

Good fresh sprouts taste completely different than those that have sat for a week, and don't have that strong sulphur and bitter taste...or the resulting gas clouds.

Good luck to ya. Not everybody is supposed to like 'em. LOL!!!
Stale sprouts will keep the black flies at bay though...

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## rmount (Oct 4, 2010)

Gologit said:


> .... I don't see any resolution any time soon.
> 
> And...does _anybody_ really eat Brussel sprouts?



I reckon the issue of illegal workers (of any origin, in any country) will be solved shortly after prostitution is eradicated.

Brussel sprouts, parboiled then fried with diced bacon and garlic then finished with a little cream and black pepper has changed many peoples opinion.


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## Winn R (Oct 4, 2010)

just get a Federal Government job. Average pay with bennies is $122k per year.

Vacation and sick days give an average of 204 days a year worked. There are 7 hours of work in a day.

A paltry $85 an hour.


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## 056 kid (Oct 4, 2010)

slowp said:


> Ok, we've run down Brussell Sprouts. Now tell us how to cook them so they are edible. I don't even think they have them in our local (within 20 miles) stores.



I just throw them in the microwave steamer for about 7 minutes, add butter,salt,pepper and eat..


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## Hddnis (Oct 4, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> HE,
> 
> I'm on your side in all of this. The disparity of enforcement is what I'm trying to illustrate. Most folks don't see these Illegals bieng used as slave labor by other Illegals and part of the Narco trafficking machine.
> 
> ...





I kind of guessed we are on the same side.

If the media would show what happens with labor out here there would be a hue and cry to remember. I don't know why there is not more press coverage. I am pretty well connected with media, elected officials and civic groups. They all gave a deaf ear to what I said. One reporter with the newspaper went so far as to get a few pictures and interview a few people. Her editor refused to run the story and she basically said "I know there is more here, I don't know why he won't run it."

Places like Arizona are even worse off than we are, due mainly to the fact that they are a border state and have a warmer climate. They try to do something about it and get sued by the feds??? The treachery of that boggles my mind, it is treason, plain and simple.

I hate unequal enforcement of the law. As a cop I was not allowed to accept so much as a cup of coffee from someone per agency policy that was based on state law. This is because I was a public official. Yet I watched the elected public officials go eat thousand dollar dinners at really fancy places and it was paid for by lobbyists and lobby money. 

I could go on all night with examples, but we all understand the problem. Know that if there was any way I could help you out with overbearing regulations I would, they are killing our country. Maybe this November we'll get some real hope for a change, not that I'm holding my breath. 



Mr. HE


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## dingeryote (Oct 4, 2010)

I hear ya on the media. They are in bed with the mess as well.

Public outcry would result in one hell of a mess, a bunch of prominent and politically connected folks getting busted, and several million out of work illegals. Not to mention the USDA chiefs getting properly rolled for not delivering on thier payoffs.

I appreciate the offer. But we are holding things down fine here with pressure on the industry, Farm Bureau, and slamming the fools that see uncontrolled waves of illegals as a good thing.

November it is.
(And remember to wash Central valley produce REAL well.)

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## slowp (Oct 5, 2010)

I disagree. We don't have reports of tree planters chained up in camps. When inspecting, we keep an eye out for that stuff as well as discreetly asking about pay and conditions if we can speak the same language. 

The Sacramento Bee ran a long story on the abuse of forest workers--Brush Pickers in this area. A lot of what they had wasn't factual. 

How can things improve if more taxes are cut? That means even less inspectors,cops, border patrol. That's what a change in the current power structure will mean. 

I would wash my produce no matter where it came from. Even from my own garden.


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## madhatte (Oct 5, 2010)

Winn R said:


> just get a Federal Government job. Average pay with bennies is $122k per year.
> 
> Vacation and sick days give an average of 204 days a year worked. There are 7 hours of work in a day.
> 
> A paltry $85 an hour.



Where are you getting these numbers? They don't add up in my world at all.



slowp said:


> I disagree. We don't have reports of tree planters chained up in camps. When inspecting, we keep an eye out for that stuff as well as discreetly asking about pay and conditions if we can speak the same language.



Too true. The planting crews I have worked with over the years have been super performers and totally aboveboard... but then, I HAVE been working for the Feds, at SIGNIFICANTLY less than 85 bones per hour.


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## slowp (Oct 5, 2010)

madhatte said:


> Where are you getting these numbers? They don't add up in my world at all..



Nor in my world. Where'd that 7 hour day come from? And the high pay?


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## ArtB (Oct 11, 2010)

Interesting thread, caught my eye as I once planted 4000 DF in 2 days on own land in 1978 near St. Helens. 33 YO at the time. Bought the trees from Mossyrock nursery and needed to get them into the ground over a weekend so I could go back to my high-paying day government contractor job <G>. 
No shovel, used a custom forged spud (3" wide, 1/4" thick 59RC hardened 4340M steel socketed onto a 5 ft oak pole) - slam down, bend the pole about 30 deg, drop in the DF, stomp down the clod, repeat. 
All the plantings that the deer did not eat did survive. The deer ate plenty though! 

Close to being unable to walk for about 2 days after that event, nowadays do not even want to visualize 1000 trees on one day let alone day after day. Did do a couple of thousand more seedling plantings later, but only a few dozen at a time in the last decade.


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## Winn R (Oct 11, 2010)

slowp said:


> Nor in my world. And the high pay?






madhatte said:


> Where are you getting these numbers? They don't add up in my world at all..





Usa Today shows it at $123k with bennies.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm

I'll see if I can find the others -- quoted off the top of my head -- not the most reliable of sources.


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## slowp (Oct 11, 2010)

Where does it mention a 7 hour day? 

Maybe you can have my job next year...


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## Jacob J. (Oct 11, 2010)

Winn R said:


> Usa Today shows it at $123k with bennies.
> 
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm
> ...



Average salary for a government wildland firefighter is around $26k with no benefits and an 11-hour day on average. These are the people that do the majority of the back-breaking labor on fires.


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## 2dogs (Oct 12, 2010)

Jacob J. said:


> Average salary for a government wildland firefighter is around $26k with no benefits and an 11-hour day on average. These are the people that do the majority of the back-breaking labor on fires.



Better than being on an inmate crew. Though the inmates love it.


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## Winn R (Oct 12, 2010)

Jacob J. said:


> Average salary for a government wildland firefighter is around $26k with no benefits and an 11-hour day on average. These are the people that do the majority of the back-breaking labor on fires.




The amazing thing about the USA Today article is that half the folks make more than this $123k.

Of the many problems with the Fed Gov, perhaps the top is that there is reward for work not done. The guys risking their lives barely make a living while the bureaucratic game players make out like royalty.




slowp said:


> Maybe you can have my job next year...



Not me -- I'm retired!  But unfortunately with no pension.


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## slowp (Oct 12, 2010)

Winn R said:


> The amazing thing about the USA Today article is that half the folks make more than this $123k.
> 
> Of the many problems with the Fed Gov, perhaps the top is that there is reward for work not done. The guys risking their lives barely make a living while the bureaucratic game players make out like royalty.
> 
> ...


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## Winn R (Oct 12, 2010)

slowp said:


> A better system? I'd rather work for somebody who at one time planted a few trees for more than a day.




I agree.

One of the greatest coincidences in my life occurred when the hands on construction trade I used to pay my way through my early 20's became my engineering profession.

I'd done the work I was designing. I knew when something that looked good on paper was just too hard to build or downright dangerous.


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## treemandan (Oct 12, 2010)

Rudedog said:


> I would rather be a Cop with TreeCo and Chowdozer riding with me and supervising me the entire shift than do that kind of work for that kind of money.



Yes, its very very bleak.


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## teatersroad (Oct 12, 2010)

Winn R said:


> The amazing thing about the USA Today article is that half the folks make more than this $123k.





edit.. at a glance, this is a bum article. It would be fair if we saw comparisons across similar occupations, I don't see that. So the presumption is that the federal workforce is a fair sampling of the civil workforce. It is not, not even close. The argument amounts to comparing that Microsoft employees make on average twice as much as other private sector workers, therefore they are paid too much. The article does not address who these 'counterparts' are, so I presume it includes minimal wage jobs in the manufacturing and service sectors, neither of which the government has much to do with. 

I get my hackles up for sensational garbage stories that get called news all the time.

edit edit> removed references to mean/median average - for my own uncertainty


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## Winn R (Oct 12, 2010)

Eric -- It's definitely not the apples to apples thing. The 4+mil fed employees probably have much more education than average.

What I do think about is the 300,000 of them in rush hour now in DC. So how many of them really crank out a days work worthy of the pay? 

And I really think about this when I look at my taxes.


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## teatersroad (Oct 12, 2010)

Winn R said:


> Eric -- It's definitely not the apples to apples thing. The 4+mil fed employees probably have much more education than average.
> 
> What I do think about is the 300,000 of them in rush hour now in DC. So how many of them really crank out a days work worthy of the pay?
> 
> And I really think about this when I look at my taxes.



copy that.. my big beef was with piss poor journalism passing as a story. As for what are government produces for the money spent, they could do better. An equal worry within and without the government, is we're becoming a workforce that manipulates and ponders more than we produce. Shuffle paper, collect a grande. I have a notion that our depression is the result of our waning initiative to make things happen in any real sense; our failure to be industrious. Best I can do is turn that criticism on myself though, and keep at it.


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## joesawer (Oct 13, 2010)

In SoCal I have seen illegal tree workers working on federally funded contracts and SoCal Edison jobs and state and county jobs that required union scale.
The illegals received poor pay and no benefits.
I heard a foreman ask the owner of one company what would happen if one was hurt or killed and he shrugged and said they will be crippled or dead, who cares?
That same company housed them in small portable metal buildings and when the hurricanes tore up Florida in 2005 they loaded them into the back of self loader brush trucks and drove them all the way from SoCal to Florida on I 10. In the late summer heat there is no part of that ride that would have been fun. I don,t know what would have been worse the Mohave or the gulf coast states. Maybe they got a little relief along the southern Arizona and New Mexico and West Texas deserts.
This company was actually from the Carolinas and works on many federal jobs. There has been many reports filed and much legal action attempted but they are evidently above the law.
The way the workers where treated and paid is criminal and they where often asked to do very dangerous tasks far above there skill level and the results where sometimes fatal.


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