# Alaskan mill profitability



## stumpjumper83 (Jan 1, 2007)

Just a question for you guys out there with the chainsaw type sawmills. Are you guys doing this for fun or for a living? Maybe I'm wrong, but my aproach to the chainsaw sawmill was that they were slow at best, and to do it on a large tree required a large saw aka 75cc or better. Then the cost of the saw combined with the cost of the mill was getting close to the 1200 mark when for 4,000 you can get a portable band type mill that cut a way smaller kerf, has a larger engine, hince a faster rate of cut. Other than the fact thet you can backpack one in, what are the bennies? For me I think it would be a portable band that I can stick behind my f-150


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## oldsaw (Jan 1, 2007)

the only way you will make money with an Alaskan is to cut wide and interesting stuff that would get top dollar. Regular production isn't going to happen.

Even a manual bandmill isn't going to get the production needed to make a real living without killing you in the process.

Mark


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## wdchuck (Jan 1, 2007)

Since I cut mainly for firewood, when a decent section of a tree comes along I hate to just buck/split/burn it, so if I can make better use of that piece, better yet. My goal for the CSM is to mill up enough wood to sell and pay for my mill, and saw. After that any wood is for my use, or to sell for play money.

My 112cc 075,42"bar,ripping chain and 44" CSM was under $600. Once I pass 500bd/ft, it's all mine.  

Maybe a ripsaw later to have a good combo setup that's very portable, and much of the wood I find is not accesible to a trailered sawmill, hard enough to get a small p/u to the wood, and $4000 is a lot of coin for some people.


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## poleframer (Jan 1, 2007)

Said it before, I'll say it again. "context". What works for you is all that matters. I mill for fun and a thousand BF or so a year that I don't have to buy, from wood that I'd burn otherwise. I built my carridge type mill for >$200, picked up a 090 at a local sawshop for $450. Gets what I want done, and paid for itself in the first thousand BF (not that I care,building it was fun,fast,and I could afford it at the time).
Hav'nt been millin lately, been nailing the boards up!
I might knock together a bandmill if I find I need, or want the production, or have the time.
The bennies? -little I do adds up. I make my electricity, live well out of town, buildt my house and shop... you'd probably laff at my yearly income.


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## flht01 (Jan 1, 2007)

oldsaw said:


> the only way you will make money with an Alaskan is to cut wide and interesting stuff that would get top dollar. Regular production isn't going to happen.
> 
> Even a manual bandmill isn't going to get the production needed to make a real living without killing you in the process.
> 
> Mark



stumpjumper83, listen to what oldsaw says about the manual mill. Trying to make a living cutting logs over 20" dbh with a manual mill will work you to death, slowly  

I bought a 36" alaskan/stihl 066 along with a ripsaw and it's a great combination for personal use or cutting big slabs to sale. Other than that, I wouldn't recommend it for production use. I ended up buying a manual mill to cut dimensional pine to rebuild a couple of barns destroyed by a hurricane and can tell you cutting the advertised bf/hr is very diffucult, everything has to be just right. If your planning on making a living cutting lumber I'd strongly recommend hydraulics; log loader, log turner, height adjustment and power feed. Anything less will put you in the poor house and leave you exhausted. 

And don't forget about the limitations of the mill, mine is 29" diameter x 18'-6" long logs. I'm going to need the csm just to get this log cut down to haul and fit the mill. 

The saw on top of the stump is a stihl 066 with a 36" bar. The log is 37 1/2 inch dbh.







I think I'll cut this one in 4 pieces to quarter saw, big saw and bar needed but not the csm frame.






This is the second log, still 36" dia. There was a lot of limbs forking out the top of this log, I'll have to use the csm to slab it down. I'l probably just saw it with the csm/ripsaw in place, Couldn't get the mill to it even if it would fit.






Just a pict of the limbs I had to cut, the biggest was over 24".






So even if you decide to go with a portable bandmill you might still want to consider a big saw/bar combination. And while you at it, the csm frame is only about $150 more. 

Best of luck with you decision, any more questions just ask.


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## MikeInParadise (Jan 2, 2007)

*Profitibility is in the back of the beholder!*

If you want to make a living you are going to need a big mill and have proper log handling equipment which is going to be more than a $4000 mill.

Nobody going to make a good living off of production wood cutting with an alaskan mill.

What it does is allow you to save money(Profit) using wood that you cannot get to a mill. You can mill anywhere you drop the log. 

In my case I use it for windfalls and wood that opportunistically comes along in an area that there is no way you can get a mill to.

Besides with your example $4000 vs $1200 that is an extra $2800 that I just would not have to spend on the mill. 

And is not really $1200 for the saw as it is the incremental cost to go from mid-size saw that you would use for larger wood to a large saw that can also be used for milling with lots of folks buying them second hand.

To make a profit out of milling would require proper log handling equipment which would cost as much as a decent mill.


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## woodshop (Jan 2, 2007)

Can't really add much to what everybody has said, as I agree with all. I use my Ripsaw/csm combo to cut approx 4000 bd ft a year. However, almost all of it is for personal use in my woodshop and my fledgling woodworking business, which I am SLOWLY ramping up for when I retire in 7 years. I work too hard for that wood to want to sell it unless I was given a REALLY good price. As was said, that usually will only happen if you have something special, like exceptionally wide or thick or figured boards. Something a woodworker can't normally find at the retail level. Even then, some woodworkers shy away from air dried wood due to the possible internal stresses from not being dried correctly. They prefer kiln dried wood. 

Bottom line is it would be very hard to make a good living from a csm or a manual bandmill. They were not designed for high production and will work you to death. At the end of an 8 hour day, if I go home with 500 bd ft of lumber (about max for a Ripsaw/csm combo), I've burned a LOT of calories.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 2, 2007)

> Then the cost of the saw combined with the cost of the mill was getting close to the 1200 mark when for 4,000 you can get a portable band type mill that cut a way smaller kerf, has a larger engine, hince a faster rate of cut.



I know a few folks makeing a liveing with there manual mills... They aren't getting rich but they are makeing a liveing and doing what they like to do... There's no doubt that hydraulics are much faster and easier but they are big bucks and you have to saw a huge amount of lumber to keep your head above water with the extra cost...

The hardest part for "me" on my manual mill is turning bigger logs. My Lumbermate has a manual turner and it takes all the work out of turning bigger logs so it's not a back breaking job for me.






As for the money difference you speak of. The speed of the band mill "easily" allows you to be able to sell enough lumber to pay that in no time at all... I have a friend who pays for all of his hobbys by selling a bit of lumber on the side. I have other friends who have build there whole house with there Lumbermate.






I got a laugh out of how it was mentioned here how much work a "manual" band mill is, but how about the manual back breaking slow death of a chain saw mill?

You don't need all kinds of expensive log handleing equipment with a band mill but it is nice to have and it does make things go faster... Many of the guys on the Norwood forum don't have tractors ect.... It's really about working smart and stageing things so you don't have to work as hard. BTW, The same winch that turns the log on my mill will also load the log.

Another thing no one mentioned is, the band mill will run on 1/4 the cost of a CSM, is MUCH quieter and will last one heck of a lot longer... You'll breath a lot less exhaust too.. I bet you the Honda 13 on a Lumbermate will outlast more than a couple of those CSM powerheads, what about that expense too?

Rob


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## Rodney Sinclair (Jan 2, 2007)

Are you guys that posted on this topic with bandsaws saying you only have $4,000 tied up in your rig?
Rodney


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## flht01 (Jan 2, 2007)

Sawyer Rob said:


> ...
> I got a laugh out of how it was mentioned here how much work a "manual" band mill is, but how about the manual back breaking slow death of a chain saw mill?



I guess I should have been a little more specific with my comments. There is no doubt even a manual mill is much less work than a csm, a lot less. I still think relying on a manual mill as a sole source of income would be a challenge to say the least.



Sawyer Rob said:


> You don't need all kinds of expensive log handleing equipment with a band mill but it is nice to have and it does make things go faster... Many of the guys on the Norwood forum don't have tractors ect.... It's really about working smart and stageing things so you don't have to work as hard. BTW, The same winch that turns the log on my mill will also load the log.



I certainly agree with working smart and staging the logs in advance. But I still can't imagine trying to earn an income with any mill without some type of log handling equipment. The Norwood mill has a lot going for it. With the bed sitting ground level, less equipment is needed loading the logs but getting them staged requires some type of equipment. I think the Norwood mill is one of the best manual mills on the market and wish I'd given them more consideration when making the decision to buy.

Rob, if you get a chance could you take a few dimensions on your log loader/turner. My winch handle keeps me from being able to turn a 29" log and I need to modify it a little. Does the norwood allow you to turn the big logs?



Sawyer Rob said:


> Another thing no one mentioned is, the band mill will run on 1/4 the cost of a CSM, is MUCH quieter and will last one heck of a lot longer... You'll breath a lot less exhaust too.. I bet you the Honda 13 on a Lumbermate will outlast more than a couple of those CSM powerheads, what about that expense too?
> 
> Rob



Agree 100% on the noise and fumes, my mill has a 13hp Kohler and will run most of the day on 2 gallons. I can run the csm/ripsaw all day on less fuel but theres still mix and bar oil to consider. I do think theres still a need for a big saw/bar combination for mill owners but I also think you just can't have too many saws


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## flht01 (Jan 2, 2007)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> Are you guys that posted on this topic with bandsaws saying you only have $4,000 tied up in your rig?
> Rodney



Rodney,
I bought the Logmaster LM-1 with a trailer package and bed extension. The trailer package is 3"x4" tubing with the mill's tracks welded to it. It also comes with 8 leveling jacks and 4 log loading ramps and the loading/turning winch. The bed extension allows me to cut up to 18'-6". The log loading setup will load the max logs but sets too close to the bed to turn them without the winch handle hitting the log. Not a big deal but I will have to look into setting the winch back a little.
I bought the mill with 5 blades for a little under $6,000. The deciding factor for me being able to drive to Nacogdoches to pick it up, saving on shipping costs.
There are a few things I'd like to have on mine. Toe boards for leveling logs would be nice and having rollers on the toe boards would make it really nice. I would also like to have the carriage spring loaded, making it easier to crank up and down. Right now I have to offload after every cut, makes it easier than cranking the head up and down a lot. It's the little things that would make my mill a little easier to operate. Maybe Rob will chime in on the costs of the Norwood with accessories.

Kevin


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 2, 2007)

I just looked it up,

Norwoods Lumberlite 24 starts at $2990.00 and from all the guys on the Norwood forum that have bought one they really like them...






The Norwood Lumbermate 2000 starts at $4,890.00

My mill is the 2000 model, and yes i have options on it. Many i bought later as i had a need for them or as they became available. That's one thing that's really nice about the Norwood sawmills. You can buy one, then as you make some money with it you can buy the options you want and they bolt right on.

Rob


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 2, 2007)

> Rob, if you get a chance could you take a few dimensions on your log loader/turner. My winch handle keeps me from being able to turn a 29" log and I need to modify it a little. Does the norwood allow you to turn the big logs?



Yes you can load or turn anything the saw is rated for....

Norwood has designed their turner so the frame slips into a tube and you can move it back if more clearance is needed...

Rob


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## oldsaw (Jan 2, 2007)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I got a laugh out of how it was mentioned here how much work a "manual" band mill is, but how about the manual back breaking slow death of a chain saw mill?



But you didn't take my post in context. I said you weren't going to make a living with a CSM, and you would do yourself in on a manual mill. I run a CSM and have some time on a Norwood Mk4. We use the two together to make wood for three of us to use, and to sell of the stuff we can. Our support equipment is a big tracked Case loader and an old Ford tractor when the logs are on the farm. When we aren't, then things get manual. Personally, I wouldn't want to make a living with a Mk4 or comparable saw. Know a guy with a TK T20, and a couple of guys with bigger WoodMizers. Those guys can make a bit of a living, and still have a back to show for it. Doing it right means a lot of loading and rolling. Hydraulics give you the speed to do it profitably.

Myself, I CSM probably 1/2 of what Woodshop does, mostly to cut big stuff down to fit the Norwood. I still get out and do a little myself every now and then, but just for me. I'm not out to make a living doing it, I already have a job. I don't have the space to park a bandmill, store the production it is capable of, or the money to fund what it would take to buy and run one. I'm pretty happy with my CSM parked on the ceiling of my garage.

Mark


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## Rodney Sinclair (Jan 2, 2007)

Hey guys, I know what the bandsaws cost. I just wanted the man to know what the cost "really" is. When your talking about a $4000 rig and posting pictures of a $8000 rig is just a little less then honest. Don't ya think? The man was talking about pulling a saw behind his pickup and I just didn't see any wheels on that lumberlite. What I do see is a lot of work moving and setting it up. That is, unless he spends all the "extra" money. You know, for frames and tires and things like that.
Rodney


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 2, 2007)

Hi Mark,

I had an "older" Lumbermate for a number of years... It's not even in the same class of the 2000. The 2000 is a much stiffer and bigger saw that handles bigger logs much much better. It's just a much improved saw all over...


Rodney,

Many guys buy an old boat trailor to put there LL on, and the wheel kit for the 2000 sure as heck won't drive the price up np 2K...

That $4890 Lumbermate saw gets you the 13hp Honda OHV industrial motor and is a nice saw. It handles the same logs mine will just not quite as long.

BTW, i've seen low hr'd LM2000's for a bit over 5K, as some buyers buy a saw to build a house with or build a cabin with and then sell it.

Like i said before, buy a mill and get sawing. After you get going, buy what options you want and bolt them on...

BTW, i'm not saying now nor have i ever said that there's no place for CSM's too...

Rob


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## Fudomyo (Jan 2, 2007)

At least for me I have spent the most on long boards over the years. Like 20'ers (VG fir) to use as trim. Just to move a log like that would cost me a bundle. Sans mill.

With the CSM it should be pretty simple to trim out my whole house, and I'm left with a damn nice chainsaw. I would think just squaring and removing the pith at the logging site would make moving things pretty easy for myself. I just have a baby tractor, BX23, so I'm not going to by pulling any big logs anywhere.

Hauling some reasonable sized stuff back to my house to mill on a bandsaw sounds cheaper than getting a saw that needs a frame.

So it probably just depends a lot on what equipment you have already, and how you can get to the next level of making lumber. If you hate sawing with a chainsaw, then at least you have a nice chainsaw that you are going to use one day.


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## woodshop (Jan 2, 2007)

Fudomyo said:


> At least for me I have spent the most on long boards over the years. Like 20'ers (VG fir) to use as trim. Just to move a log like that would cost me a bundle. Sans mill.
> 
> With the CSM it should be pretty simple to trim out my whole house, and I'm left with a damn nice chainsaw. I would think just squaring and removing the pith at the logging site would make moving things pretty easy for myself. I just have a baby tractor, BX23, so I'm not going to by pulling any big logs anywhere.
> 
> ...



Welcome fudomya, well said. All this boils down to what you want to do with the mill, how much and what size logs you want to cut. It would be kinda like a "woodworker" asking what kind of equipment does he need for his shop. Geez... are you gonna be making a few bird feeders for family and friends or will you be making a period cherry corner hutch every week. After thinking about it, I agree with sawyer rob in that I can see somebody making a living with a manual mill. Just more work, production would be slower, but not something that can't be done. Now making a living with just a csm... no. Just don't think it possible unless there are special circumstances. Maybe if you have a bunch of those 4000 year old rare buried trees like those in New Zealand on your property and every week you take your big csm and go out and cut a few $1000 slabs from one you dug up... maybe THEN?  

If I had the room, I would have a larger bandsaw mill like a lumbermate... period. I don't even have enough room to park one if it was given to me. Even if I had a lumbermate or Woodmizer, would I give up my Ripsaw/csm combo? No... that combo still fills a niche (extreme portability for the production I can get from it) that so far nobody has been able to convince me they can fill with anything else.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Jan 2, 2007)

I think we all agree you can't make a living with a chainsaw mill. Maybe we should take a poll and see how many folks with a manual bandsaw do make a living with it. Without other income of course. You know, with retirement, second job, a working wife and stuff like that. Just you and your manual bandsaw mill. How about it, any takers?
Rodney


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## carvinmark (Jan 3, 2007)

stumpjumper83 said:


> Just a question for you guys out there with the chainsaw type sawmills. Are you guys doing this for fun or for a living? Maybe I'm wrong, but my aproach to the chainsaw sawmill was that they were slow at best, and to do it on a large tree required a large saw aka 75cc or better. Then the cost of the saw combined with the cost of the mill was getting close to the 1200 mark when for 4,000 you can get a portable band type mill that cut a way smaller kerf, has a larger engine, hince a faster rate of cut. Other than the fact thet you can backpack one in, what are the bennies? For me I think it would be a portable band that I can stick behind my f-150



I have a portable CSM that is similar to a band mill, as in a 16' deck and a carriage. I also have a regular CSM that will fit in the truck. I attempted to cut some production wood a few summers ago, ain't happening!
I use almost all the wood I mill and it is very large planks I cut. I got mine used for real cheap,I'm not telling how much, but I had no mill before so it was great to be able to produce what I want.
At best, my mill has paid for itself, aside from the pleasure I get from milling.
A band mill would be great but I just can't afford the initial cost. I'm not saying the CSM is less expensive, what I like is that I don't need to run it all the time to justify owning it.
Both have their place and uses. I'm glad I know people with band mills so I can get stuff fast if I need it. Hope nobody takes offense to my own views, happy new year,
Mark


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## Marco (Jan 12, 2007)

In 1969 my father purchased used a circular mill, a '41 Dodge 1 1/2 ton, a LA Case, an edger and 4 solid tooth blades for $1200. He already had a '36 JD A with a loader to move logs. In that time the Case was scrapped and replaced with an I9 Farmall which since has been traded for a horse. The mill is now powered with a 336 Moline power unit, the babbit bearings on the arbor have been replaced with ball bearings and we use insert tooth blades. The A JD sits and looks wise while a Allis TL12 loader feeds the mill. Thousand board feet in how long ? Afternoon, easy, with Tea time and an early beer thirty. After using this line up of antiques and trying milling with a chainsaw,.... I'll stick with my relics and make money. I think I'm going to use my Chainsaw mill to stake the tomatoes.


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## woodshop (Jan 12, 2007)

marco do you have a pic of this mill? I'd like to see couple if you do.


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## brian660 (Jan 13, 2007)

csm is great for cutting big beams and other one off lumber, thats what I use mine for, I don`t waste my time making common dimensional lumber.

I also don`t use my csm to make a living I use it for enjoyment, but theres been times where a days worth of "enjoyment" has gotten me 1000$.


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## carvinmark (Jan 14, 2007)

brian660 said:


> csm is great for cutting big beams and other one off lumber, thats what I use mine for, I don`t waste my time making common dimensional lumber.
> 
> I also don`t use my csm to make a living I use it for enjoyment, but theres been times where a days worth of "enjoyment" has gotten me 1000$.



I know exactly what you mean.
Mark


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## iacornfed (Jan 14, 2007)

*making money*

I bought mine for my own use on the farm. I use it to clean up the endless supply of red oak and ash. To each his own, There is no one best mill. What works econmicaly for you and fits your needs is the one for you! I have built cabinets, beds, carvings and a cabin with some of the lumber I have sawn! Could i have spent more? Yes! but i didn't want to. Good luck in your choice.


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## stumpjumper83 (Jan 14, 2007)

I already have a stihl 460 mag w/ a 24", but I was thinking about a 660 w/ 36-40." The main use for them is cutting stumps on large removals. The 460 is also my feller when I go out logging. I thought I had a pic of a 38" hemlock stump that I cut with spring but instead you get one of me just after topping my second time topping a tree. Anyhow, the sawmill is being planned to provide some income during the slow season of tree removals. Stash the logs when I'm busy, mill them when I'm slow, supplementing my income that way. Also maybe do some custom on site stuff. I have a freind that has two maybe three now of the manual feed band mills. He uses them to manufacture pallets for his stone quarry. He also does custom cutting in the winter. He claims that he can out cut a woodmizer. Right now I cant way for spring a business to pick up.


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## Woodsurfer (Jan 14, 2007)

Stump, that is impressive and scary! Looks like difficult climb... Excuse my ignorance, but why did you have to top that tree instead of just dropping it? Would it get smashed up on impact?


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## stumpjumper83 (Jan 14, 2007)

No straight felling wasn't an option. What you don't see in the pic is the barn that 25' or so away. The fence you see runs parallel to the barn and is attached to it. One of those top and drop routines. Climbing wasn't too bad, used two fliplines and alternated my way up the tree. Worked pretty well.


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