# How many almost went broke?



## deeker (Aug 5, 2009)

My business is slow right now, and it will recover. 

Changes in my tactics and with my ways of promoting it. What have you guys done to stay afloat when you first started?

Starting a small business, or within the first two years is tough.

When were you able to pull it out and make an evil profit?

I had to start the two I now own, from scratch. And almost completely broke to begin with. Unable to get loans to buy equipment, had to borrow from family and friends.

Just curious of others stories and successes/failures.

Thanks for reading.

Kevin


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## deeker (Aug 5, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I've been self employed for 28 years and debt free for the past 12. It's been good.
> 
> 
> Hang in there Deeker. I'm sure your charming personality will pull you through. That Obama dude is going to tax you back into the poor house so you'd be wise to keep your focus on his birth certificate!



I was asking the people who actually started their own buisinesses, the usual way. Not with an "I do".


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## ShoerFast (Aug 5, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I've been self employed for 28 years and debt free for the past 12. It's been good.
> 
> 
> Hang in there Deeker. I'm sure your charming personality will pull you through. That Obama dude is going to tax you back into the poor house so you'd be wise to keep your focus on his birth certificate!



Was that necessary?

That's right, you don't do questions.


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## deeker (Aug 5, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> LOL!
> 
> Your crystal ball must need polishing. I've never married into a business.



One would be led to believe otherwise. Looking at the site.


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## deeker (Aug 5, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> How so?



Post a link to your web site....lets vote on it.


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## deeker (Aug 5, 2009)

We, bought a log splitter in June. The "we" being my dad (91yrs old) and I.

The reason? I have a lot of waste wood that we have been selling as firewood to customers. Dad was basically bored and wanted something to do around the mill.

He wanted to feel like he was working, besides in his garden and yard.
It is good for him to run the splitter and then I bundle the wood for sale.
He feels better about working, he says he does not want to "retire" just yet.

We paid for the $1400 splitter the first month. Selling bundles to camp grounds.

One other advantage of having my dad around is his knowledge in life.
Customers love to talk with him, and he always makes them feel good about buying the firewood.

He and I have frequently said we should have bought the mill in the early '80's when we first started talking about it.

Then we cut cedar fence posts and clear cut for homes and cabins.
Paid a lot of extra bills off that way.

Much more to learn.


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## ShoerFast (Aug 5, 2009)

It was looking grim the last few days Continental airways were operating out of old Stapelton airport. Also shod horses on my weekends. 

Given 6 cities with technical promotions and a moving allowance, or take the riff and except $2500.00 training allowance and find something to do for a few years, as Continental had plans to return to the opening DIA airport. It was my desision to stick around and shoe more horses. 

I got the $2500.00 approved to go to Pikes Peak Outfitter Guide School (now Colorado Outdoor Adventure School) , did well in Guide school, started my first Guiding job the fallowing Monday after graduation, with about $14 dollars in my pocket. 

Stacked a few dimes guiding, the last day was just before Christmas and the stack of dimes would not last till spring when shoeing would really take off. I decided to set up a wall tent in the National Forest to save renting a place till my feet hit the ground, and just made it. 

At first, made a couple mistakes, started shoeing in the Mountains west of Denver, it would have been better to stick around the airport where by client base was located. The second mistake was under-bidding my work. 

Nothing sounds sadder then the sound of of a butter knife scraping the walls of a peanut-butter jar, trying to scrap up enough peanut-butter for your last cracker. Nothing sounds better then your phone ringing and a good customer braking the peanut-butter scavenging sound with the need to have a couple horses done as soon as I can get there. 

Nothing can make a business decision feel better then having a customer asking if I will take half in cash, and half in check, when they lived on the other side of a grocery store and bank from my Forest camp! 

Things been up and down since then, mostly up. 
Started another businessmen since, Crow Valley Forge LLC . Making Knives, Just last year at about this time we had a knife premiered on page #54 of the September issue of BLADE magazine, have not made a knife that was not already sold since then! 





Pictured on page #55 are Rex Walter and Ed Fowler , my Metallurgist and Bladesmith Mentor, without who I would still be making knives just good enough to scavenge peanut-butter from jars with!


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## deeker (Aug 5, 2009)

Good posts, shoe. And your work has been written about in a publicized format. Great job!!!!!!!

The school of hard knocks is familiar to most of us.

When I bought the Norwood mill, I was able to cover payments with other work. Barely.

Clear cutting for building/construction. With the bonus of the logs from the cutting.

Then, I broke my leg in a 4 wheeler accident. I was able to run the mill, with the help of my oldest son Mike and my dad. My youngest son was in the military at the time. Just had to change the way I did a few things around the mill.

A local art and frame maker kept me afloat for the first winter, he made fancy "rustic" frames. I will have to find some pics and post them.

My wife has been working full time, mostly to keep herself busy. She has talked about starting a business of her own. But with the economy right now....


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## outofmytree (Aug 18, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> www.TreeCo.biz



Nice looking webbie Treeco. 

You seem to cover all the bases. Type was easy to read too.

You got my vote.


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## woodbooga (Aug 18, 2009)

There's no replacement for customer service and good frequent communication with your clients/customer base. To a degree at least (I'm assuming you're not in direct competition with WalMart).

Taking TreeCo's web site as a point of departure: On his firewood page, there was some good information about the qualities of different wood for smoking meat. That would make a great e-mail blast around Memorial Day as everyone is gearing up for bbq season. The principle is give your potential customer some good free advice - and simultaneously position your business as _the_ first place to turn for the goods and services needed to follow the advice. 

Around here, there's a greenhouse that specializes in daylillies of every kind imaginable. They have an informative eNews that updates folks on new cultivars and provides gardening tips so you're successful in nurturing your garden. The principle there is if I buy one and it's successful, I might buy more. If I improperly plant and care for it and it dies, I'm as likely to blame the greenhouse as I am my own incompetence.

But you need to be proactive in gathering those e-mails.

Also, past issues of your eNews can be archived on your web site as additional content. (One of my mantras is "Do what is accretive, not ephemeral." Learned that saying from a Harvard MBA. Works good.)


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## woodbooga (Aug 19, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Thanks for the kind comments!
> 
> My wife does the web site and I gather the information. We should have much more info at the site and it's all my fault and I'm not being sarcastic!



Your welcome. A good practice is to make your electronic presence as active as possible.

For example, I remember when the web was relatively new and businesses would get their site up - and then be pissed that customers weren't beating a path through the doors.

Search is much more powerful now, but still the fact remains creating a site is still relatively passive, following the 'build it and they will come model.'

Anytime we're doing something special or can offer something of value to our constituents, I build a special page in html and send it out as an e-mail with links to relevant pages I want visited. (If you can use the AS software tools, with a little practice, it should be easy fof most.)

For me, every month seems to work well. Frequent enough to maintain the relationship. But not so often we're considered pesty. (There's also a lot of wisdom in the 1st rule of show biz that applies to many things - always leave them wanting more.


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## outofmytree (Aug 20, 2009)

woodbooga said:


> Your welcome. A good practice is to make your electronic presence as active as possible.
> 
> For example, I remember when the web was relatively new and businesses would get their site up - and then be pissed that customers weren't beating a path through the doors.
> 
> ...



Sound advice.

I know very little about website construction but my leading hand is a 20 year IT refugee. He is going to help me (ok, I am going to watch him) build our new website. I have heard a number of IT guns-for-hire say similar things about frequently updating information to increase the profile of a website in search engines. Many other projects to complete before the webbie gets attention.


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## splittah (Aug 20, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> www.TreeCo.biz



Nice looking site Dan, alot of good information there on the cordwood and wood species for BBQ smoking also... 

And the plants you have, that list is amazing.. 

yes, you got my vote too..


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## cord arrow (Aug 21, 2009)

> Not with an "I do".



Damn, deeker....how cheap can one man actually get...this could be a new low, even for the likes of yourself...


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## deeker (Aug 22, 2009)

cord arrow said:


> Damn, deeker....how cheap can one man actually get...this could be a new low, even for the likes of yourself...



Well, from the likes of me. Thanks.

My point was made to the one it concerned.


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## deeker (Aug 22, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> The only point you made is that you are lower than whale ####, Bubba.



Still waiting..........why the little "creatures" on "your" site.

Explain or run.


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## deeker (Aug 22, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> My wife has a collection of over 250 fairies. She's got books, statues, photos, calendars, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



About the Gumby running thing.......


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## deeker (Aug 22, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> My wife has a collection of over 250 fairies. She's got books, statues, photos, calendars, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Not interested, but hey thanks.

Now, shall we return to the topic????


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## yooper (Aug 22, 2009)

I started my tree service 4 years ago. thing where great for the first 3 years. with the economy as it is this summer things are very bleak, Hell I made about as much money last July as I have made so far this year. I have no employees just me and my wife work together so at least no one else has been put out on the line to dry. lucky everything I have is bought and paid for so my small busness has no bills. I always paid for every thing up front. I do have a mortgage on my house and about 90 acres of hunting land but only owe about 24 grand on that. think I am going to have to remortgage that to have money to make it through the winter unless a good tornado comes plowing through the area, but unlikely there hasn't been one of them here for 50 years. but I am frugal, have a couple big gardens and hunt allot of wild game so be it as life goes on.............if all else fails i will become a liberal and go on the dole:greenchainsaw:


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## woodbooga (Aug 22, 2009)

I remember when the band guns and roses was brand new. Read an interview with them about a month before their 1st album came out.

They used to earn cash to buy cheap wine by cruising LA for cheap women - to harvest the crabbies that they harboured. Seems the local clinic used to pay cash money for the crabbies.

On a tangent, one of the band members said, "Cool thing is, if you put two of them in a jar together, they'll fight to the death."

Don't know what it is about this thread that made me think of that. 

I'm also left wondering if some of the folks posting in this thread were born under the Zodiac sign of Cancer.


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## deeker (Aug 25, 2009)

yooper said:


> I started my tree service 4 years ago. thing where great for the first 3 years. with the economy as it is this summer things are very bleak, Hell I made about as much money last July as I have made so far this year. I have no employees just me and my wife work together so at least no one else has been put out on the line to dry. lucky everything I have is bought and paid for so my small busness has no bills. I always paid for every thing up front. I do have a mortgage on my house and about 90 acres of hunting land but only owe about 24 grand on that. think I am going to have to remortgage that to have money to make it through the winter unless a good tornado comes plowing through the area, but unlikely there hasn't been one of them here for 50 years. but I am frugal, have a couple big gardens and hunt allot of wild game so be it as life goes on.............if all else fails i will become a liberal and go on the dole:greenchainsaw:



The last option won't work for you or me. We work for our pay.

Great post. Thanks


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## Apocalypsse (Aug 25, 2009)

What kind of startup budgets did people have to keep themselves afloat?


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## Garden Of Eden (Aug 26, 2009)

Hey everyone. Only reason I'm chiming in, is because I think this may help someone lurking. Before I started my business, I made sure I had 100% of the capital to buy any and all equipment I would need. Insurance for 6 months atleast, and any other fees and such. Then I went ahead. No I am in the same position I was before the biz, even if I never fire the saw again. I pay 100% of the payroll taxes for people I hire. I don't even give them a choice. Since I know all them personally, I can explain why I do this and everyone is ok with it. My payroll company charges 2% of profit, and $2 per check they write. I pay bi-weekly, so it's very little $$ from me, and I then pay taxes quarterly, just to be safe. I take 35% and save it from every job so that I know I can pay taxes, and I do everything in my power to keep uncle sam off my back. As far as going broke? Not as long as I profit around 1000/month. That's 30 days to make a grand to pay my bills. Its very do-able for me. Even in a city with over 20% unemployment. My wife works also, and we've no kids to speak of, so, right now everything goes to bank. Also, if times do get aweful. I have 6 months worth bills in the bank, just in case.

Hope this helps, and God bless

Jeff


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## Apocalypsse (Aug 26, 2009)

Awesome advice, thanks for that. What about operating capital? Is there a minimum balance you will always keep for the rainy day when something goes wrong? I think a lot of businesses fizzle out because they dont have anything/much in the way of operating capital.


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## Garden Of Eden (Aug 26, 2009)

Apocalypsse said:


> Awesome advice, thanks for that. What about operating capital? Is there a minimum balance you will always keep for the rainy day when something goes wrong? I think a lot of businesses fizzle out because they dont have anything/much in the way of operating capital.



I do. I try and keep 6 months as well for capital. Of course, that's in my business account, separate from personal, and it doesn't always stay there. I'm not the biggest company by far, however, I don't want to be either. lol

My insurance picks up any problems with my saws, truck, or anything else I list. It will give me replacement value, up to $1000/saw. I just hesitate to use it for small stuff, just to upgrade my company. That would be a difficult one to explain to the big man. lol

Honestly though, operating capital is minimal. Blades, gas, what else is there? Insurance is paid, so...I try and offer customers the best thing money can't buy, service. I may not know everything, but I know enough people I can ask.

Thanks everyone,

Jeff


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## TreeClimber57 (Aug 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> www.TreeCo.biz



Looks good to me!! You got my vote as well.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 26, 2009)

My 2 partners ( one is a brother and the other is like one ) and I each chipped in about $7500 bucks to get the basic equipment needed to operate as a tree service about 2 years ago. Since then we've become "legit" ( insurance, taxes, certs, advertising, etc. ) and have yet to take a personal penny out of the company pot. We all still maintain our day jobs to pay our own bills so the economic "crisis" didn't hit us hard. Yes, there wasn't as much work as expected this year but we're not concerned, still getting our name out there. We've upgraded equipment as the funds became available and have yet to borrow a thing. We just keep working our asses off and hopefully we'll be better off in the long run. 
http://www.choicetreecare.com


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 27, 2009)

I started with 15k I had saved from being paid 12$ an hour running another guys tree business and farm work. Brought a 4wd terrano which ended up being a rust fest, a 066, a ms200, a yellow pages ad, insurance and climbing kit. I lived with 5 others so could live on $120 a week (ah to be single again), which is what I paid myself for 3 years while I poured money into the gear fund. (which has kept flowing).
Couldnt keep gear in truck on street so put my bed up on blocks so I could fit gear underneath. Bed ended up being at waist level.
Worked solo and to cheap for 2 years, contract climbed for other companies and did some dumb take downs solo (came up with a rigging system that allowed me to rope, cut, lower and retrieve the rope afterwards all from in the tree). 

Had some lean times and bad luck with vehicle. Being single, debt free and able to live dirt cheap got me through.


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## rahtreelimbs (Aug 27, 2009)

I just moved from Pennsylvania to Georgia because of my wifes job. I am trying to get a regular day job and get a tree business off of the ground. Slow times that is for sure!


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## Kansas (Aug 27, 2009)

Well my 2 cents..Looks like every person here has the balzz to hang out a shingle in the first place and that says more about a person than how much money you make imo. 

I have been in business for myself for 20 years and 3 months this time and a few years each other time I went off on a tangent and thought I knew it all. 

I fix Asian cars for a living Toyota and Honda is my specialty and do it well and make a little money at it again and have quite a good rep thanks to being honest and straight forward and standing behind my work and giving thorough and accurate estimates thats the key in my line. 

I made money right off for 3-4 years working by myself then *I hired people to work for me and I started loosing money. *

Cash flow in and out went way up net income went down and then the gubermint gets in and there goes more money out the window work comp, ss, medicare, taxs etc and then there are comebacks and theft and broken parts and more money gone, sick days, low productiion on good days, bill collectors garnishing employee wages and on and on gets real old.

I had enough 5 years ago and have gone back to a one man shop and back to making money again actually enjoying work agaiin I can come and go as I want. 

edit: almost forgot yes I have gone broke twice and bankrupt once and since then I have 2 rules of being in business and its on a sign in my front office it reads-

Rule 1; You cant make a living off of people that dont have any money 
Rule 2: You cant loan people money in order for them to do business with you 

Thats worth more than 2 cents just keep the "change" 

Kansas


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## deeker (Sep 2, 2009)

Kansas said:


> *Well my 2 cents..Looks like every person here has the balzz to hang out a shingle in the first place and that says more about a person than how much money you make imo. :*clap:
> 
> I have been in business for myself for 20 years and 3 months this time and a few years each other time I went off on a tangent and thought I knew it all.
> 
> ...



Great points, unable to rep you for now....

Kevin


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## Kansas (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey Kevin thanks for that!

The moral of my story is _credit will kill you _if you arnt carefull! 

Part of the being in business game is having venders give you monthly accounts. So as not having to write a check for every single thing but the other edge of that knife is giving the consumer access to that line of credit they can take you right out of the game.in a heartbeat and its no skin off their hiney its up to you to pay for the collections etc.

Another small sign on my wall is "My policy is the same as Walmart, Dillons, Sears etc its paid for before you walk out" 


Kansas


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## Kansas (Sep 3, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Hey everyone. Only reason I'm chiming in, is because I think this may help someone lurking. Before I started my business, I made sure I had 100% of the capital to buy any and all equipment I would need. Insurance for 6 months atleast, and any other fees and such. Then I went ahead. No I am in the same position I was before the biz, even if I never fire the saw again. I pay 100% of the payroll taxes for people I hire. I don't even give them a choice. Since I know all them personally, I can explain why I do this and everyone is ok with it. My payroll company charges 2% of profit, and $2 per check they write. I pay bi-weekly, so it's very little $$ from me, and I then pay taxes quarterly, just to be safe. I take 35% and save it from every job so that I know I can pay taxes, and I do everything in my power to keep uncle sam off my back. As far as going broke? Not as long as I profit around 1000/month. That's 30 days to make a grand to pay my bills. Its very do-able for me. Even in a city with over 20% unemployment. My wife works also, and we've no kids to speak of, so, right now everything goes to bank. Also, if times do get aweful. I have 6 months worth bills in the bank, just in case.
> 
> Hope this helps, and God bless
> 
> Jeff



Rep for that well done your business model sounds like something from one of my favorite talk radio guys Dave Ramsey! 

Good luck to ya thats a good start "cash is king" for sure! 


Kansas


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## Garden Of Eden (Sep 3, 2009)

Kansas said:


> Rep for that well done your business model sounds like something from one of my favorite talk radio guys Dave Ramsey!
> 
> Good luck to ya thats a good start "cash is king" for sure!
> 
> ...



Thanks. That's exactly where I got it from. I started right out of H.S. in a management position making anywhere from $175,000 at 18, all the way up to $250,000 at 22 yrs old. I realized I had very little to show for it. I got into some trouble with the law, and took a couple steps back. Now I do all I can to keep the Government off my back, and out of my pocket. I try and educate all my employees on it too. After a month or so working for me, I buy them all a copy of the Total Money Make-over. It seems to help most.

Kansas, you still have accts at vendors? I almost did that at a stihl shop near me. I have about $200 cash on me most all the time, plus the business debit card. I just am a receipt-whore, just ask my wife. How do you do the account thing? Just one check for everything every month? Seems like a lot of adding, or am I wrong?

Thanks,

Jeff


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## Kansas (Sep 3, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Kansas, you still have accts at vendors? I almost did that at a stihl shop near me. I have about $200 cash on me most all the time, plus the business debit card. I just am a receipt-whore, just ask my wife. How do you do the account thing? Just one check for everything every month? Seems like a lot of adding, or am I wrong?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff



Hey Jeff, 

Yes I still have accts payable with venders (not Daves way I know) they just send me a bill @ the end of the month and 99% are due by the 10th we pay ahead a little so they get their money on time. 

I have accts at probably every major dealer and parts house in the state and some out of state, the real kicker is cod charges and tax for me since I am a retailer it makes no semse for me to pay taxs at point of sale and the time it takes me out of production to sit down and open quickbooks and the cost of inkjet checks etc etc. 

Also wholesale parts are obviously the cheapest way to go for most of us, also most places that sell wholesale do so that they dont have to mess with taxs etc thay can write you up and throw it in a box out the door.

Here is where my way and Daves way cross paths  , we save 10% of every deposit right into business savings IE if its a $1000 deposit $100 goes into savings at the driveup window at the bank, and I have done that for 20 years its saved my butt a million times. hth 

(remember my 2 rules for being in business posted above it was hard learned lessons)

Kansas


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## Garden Of Eden (Sep 3, 2009)

Kansas said:


> Yes I still have accts payable with venders (not Daves way I know) they just send me a bill @ the end of the month and 99% are due by the 10th we pay ahead a little so they get their money on time.
> 
> Kansas



Not a big deal if it works for you. Good idea to pay ahead, I do the same thing with things like my phone, and that sort of thing.



Kansas said:


> I have accts at probably every major dealer and parts house in the state and some out of state, the real kicker is cod charges and tax for me since I am a retailer it makes no semse for me to pay taxs at point of sale and the time it takes me out of production to sit down and open quickbooks and the cost of inkjet checks etc etc.
> 
> Kansas



You have accts, but since you're also a retailer, you're tax free, correct? couldn't you just get a debit card and swipe, save the reciept, and on a real crappy no-work day, compute everything you got so far, keep on top of it for the month? I do see the problem with extra math with taxes and COD charges though. That would take some serious time. Curiosity, how much time you spend every month on bills though? Thanks.



Kansas said:


> Here is where my way and Daves way cross paths , we save 10% of every deposit right into business savings IE if its a $1000 deposit $100 goes into savings at the driveup window at the bank, and I have done that for 20 years its saved my butt a million times. hth
> Kansas




Fantastic idea, I wish more people would do something similar. If you look at my business bank acct, I'm like broke as a joke, but if you look at my wife, I'm a lot better off.

Something I forgot too...

I have a trust set up with mine and my wife's name as owners. Under the trust is a leasing company, that owns all the equipment. All of it. That's in my wife's name. Next is the actual tree company. That's mine, and it does all the work. I "lease" the equipment from my wife's company each job. It's a little more paperwork, but I don't do it. I pay a guy. Plus, I lease it for 75% of the bid, each and every job, just to keep it straight. The way it's set up, lets say someone sues me and for whatever reason, my insurance doesn't/can't cover it, they can only get the capital from my tree business, nothing from the leasing company, because they're separate corporations. 

Hope that's clear. 

Jeff


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## belgian (Sep 3, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> www.TreeCo.biz



Nice Website Dan 
Kinda like the creatures....

you got my vote as well :greenchainsaw:


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## Kansas (Sep 3, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Not a big deal if it works for you. Good idea to pay ahead, I do the same thing with things like my phone, and that sort of thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jeff,

Yup clear as a bell to me! 

I have an accountant that keeps my books and all my stuff is on quickbooks it keeps track, plus we send a micro backup drive of it to him every month so he sees my check book and all the checks I write. 

He charges me $100 a month and prepares my monthly sales tax we just print a check and mail it in the pre-paid state envelope that keeps me ahead of the tax collectors if and when there is a problem, I make $66 an hour labor and some on parts when the gettins good so he is cheap.

As far as swiping a card I really dont trust anybody with my info in order to do that each and every time there would be some $6.50 hour person with my info not worth it imo.

Fwtw my wife and I both got cell phone calls last night at home some automated message saying our debit cards had been disabled and them wanting us to verify our info!!!!! 

Thats BS if you ask me we both hung up and today on the front page of the local paper is local phone SCAM on DEBIT cards so there ya go kind of scarry now a days with these cards.

Sounds like the payout will work fine for ya long as you get paid. 

We were incorporated (not an LLC) for many years for liabillity reasons like you, and dont get me wrong I have no idea what your lawyer has in mind for ya but we saw that it really didnt pay us to be a corperation and actually when we went broke it actually helped us NOT to be one so ymmv but thats my story. 


Kansas


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## Garden Of Eden (Sep 3, 2009)

Kansas said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Yup clear as a bell to me!
> 
> ...



I get the scams and such, there's not really a lot that can be done to prevent it though. You get the same calls personally, as i do with my business. So we both lose. lol Honestly after a couple yrs, my trust has build it's own "credit," so I have identity theft protection on it. I also can only spend X amount of $ if I don't call them, which is annoying, but safe. 

The trust is the only entity which is a corporation, the rest are LLCs. I actually kinda like this idea, cuz the govt, can't force me into a "fire-sale" of my equipment in the event of a bankruptcy. Ya know?

I'll be honest, it takes me almost as long to decipher the abbreviations as it does to read the messages. lol I'm so guilty too...

Best of luck to you and your family. Been excellent swapping ideas with you.

Jeff


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## Kansas (Sep 3, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Best of luck to you and your family. Been excellent swapping ideas with you.
> 
> Jeff



Same here best of luck to ya!

Btw my accountant has a couple rules too I will throw in as a PS he says:

1) "Profit isnt a dirty word" and 
2) "There arnt any tax deductions without a profit"  


Kansas


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## Garden Of Eden (Sep 4, 2009)

Kansas said:


> Same here best of luck to ya!
> 
> Btw my accountant has a couple rules too I will throw in as a PS he says:
> 
> ...



How come every HO thinks if we're making a profit, that we're all going to hell?

It's really frustrating. 

Anywho - Beautiful talking to you...


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## rahtreelimbs (Sep 4, 2009)

I wonder where anyone would get the idea that Dan (Treeco) married into his tree biz???


Even if he did the fact that it is still up and running and that he still wants to climb says a lot!!!


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