# When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch?



## TDunk (Oct 1, 2009)

Maybe pics. would help me understand your procedure a little bit better, but having no notch makes the tree about impossible to control. Not to mention barber chairing. The only time i don't use a notch is up in the tree (snap cut) and that's if there's a big DZ.


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## Hddnis (Oct 1, 2009)

Even a small face cut will give you better control and let you drop them safely.

Glad that it has been working out for you so far. With that much pulling power you can get away with more. 



Mr. HE


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 1, 2009)

Like Tdunk said. Barberchair is bad.


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## rmihalek (Oct 2, 2009)

On a tree with a heavy lean, you can try the Coos Bay cut. Basically, you make two cuts, one on either side of the stem, parallel to the direction of the lean. You fell the tree by then sawing in from the back towards to intended direction of falling. I'm sure there's a diagram somewhere here on AS or elsewhere on the 'net.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 2, 2009)

Jerry B gives a good description on the gypo climber board

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...window=1&q=Coos+Bay+tree+method&aq=f&oq=&aqi=


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## magnus (Oct 7, 2009)

*photos*

Wow, thanks for the great feedback. I had a chance to get online a day early this week, so here I am....with photos and a diagram. Tomorrow i walk to the city and will use the library to check online. 

I bought my MS180 2 years ago, that was the first time I ever used a chainsaw in my life. Not opposed to sawing, just never had a need. Anway the manual came in Portuguese, since i live on a portuguese island...and i do not speak portuguese...so i figured out how to work it myself and proceeded to cut an acre of jungle. mainly incenso and acatia trees spread over a 45 degree mountainside. at the time there was not internet so i could not get online to get an english manual or ask questions.
i made a lot of mistakes, but now i KNOW why i do NOT do certain things, that I now have read about. Now I bought a MS660 for the larger euks, although i did drop a 130 cm tree with my 35 bar. landed in my bathroom when the winch snapped! Anyway, on to the problem at hand.

There were a lot of posts, so let me try to make sense of some of the common ideas.

basically, ALWAYS use a notch.

also the tree has a diameter of 75 cm.

the "pro" i hired to fell the two trees that landed in our garden was recommended to me, so i did not check his credentials well. my mistake. on an island of 4000 there are few pros at anything other than fishing and dairy.

you need photos to make sense of what i am talking about...so here they are.

first, the last euk i cut using "my method". the trunk is uphill of the stump against the natural lean and weight, nearly identical to present problem tree.






now the problem tree.


















or all the photos are on photobucket here
http://s628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/magnusflores/

thanks allot for the input, i need help.
trust me, if there were a pro to hire here i would! 
not proud, just can´t find good help these days.


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## Toddppm (Oct 7, 2009)

I don't remember what you said your winch is attached to but I get the feeling it's going to end up at the bottom of that hill with one of those trees.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 7, 2009)

rmihalek said:


> On a tree with a heavy lean, you can try the *Coos Bay cut*. Basically, you make two cuts, one on either side of the stem, parallel to the direction of the lean. You fell the tree by then sawing in from the back towards to intended direction of falling. I'm sure there's a diagram somewhere here on AS or elsewhere on the 'net.



Isn't this the same situation that *magnus* has described in his thread in the Arborist 101 Forum:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=110665

If so, a 'Coos Bay cut' would put the trees exactly where *magnus * does NOT want them. 

A Coos Bay cut works for dropping a lot of trees in a hurry in the direction of lean (usually down hill). It is illegal in many areas because there is minimal (or no) control of the direction fall. *This a very risky recommendation!*


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 7, 2009)

Wow. I'd find a climber.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 7, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Wow. I'd find a climber.


:agree2:

*Magnus, please don't climb those trees!!!*


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## Bermie (Oct 8, 2009)

Hey Magnus..we get the 'pro's' from St. Miguel that come to Bermuda...they come out as farmers...next thing they got a chainsaw and are tree pro's!!

You NEED a face cut...do more research...here and go on the chainsaw forum and do a seach on leaning trees.

I understand your predicament, it's you or Tony Joe and Frank, some rope and a ladder...Keep Researching!

BTW the Azores are simply beautiful...been to Horta in Fial...yes, on a sailboat, our painting is on the seawall somewhere!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 8, 2009)

I've done a little reading on the Coos Bay cut, and it seems to me that it's sole purpose is to get a leaner down fast, before it will barberschair. As Jerry B. puts it you "cut like heck on the back cut and it tears and rips to scare the stuffing out of you"

If you want to directional fall, then you need a hinge and scarf.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 8, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've done a little reading on the *Coos Bay cut*, and it seems to me that it's sole purpose is to get a leaner down fast, before it will barberschair. *As Jerry B. puts it you "cut like heck on the back cut and it tears and rips to scare the stuffing out of you"*
> If you want to directional fall, then you need a hinge and scarf.



:agree2:
If the Coos Bay cut scares the stuffing out of Jerry B., it's got to be a BAD IDEA for us mere mortals - especially a newby.

That being said, it is a fast way to clear an old orchard of small apple trees. But, they are little more than shrubs anyway. Again IMHO, cutting shrubbery is the only time when it is appropriate to NOT use a felling notch.

*Now back to Magnus' serious problem - dangerous trees (NOT SHRUBBERY) that have to come down - no reliable removal services available - no experience with this kind of takedown. It would be horrible to read about it on the injury forum.

He's come here for help! Someone's got to have some hard useable SAFE solution to his dilemma without ruining his property or himself - without flying over there to help him ... RIGHT?*


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 8, 2009)

I've never cut euc, but I've heard that strapping the stems help guard against barberschair.


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## AshTree (Oct 8, 2009)

*Solution Humbolt...*

Humbolt is the way to go on a down hill cliff, any logger can tell you that. Mostly since it holds on the longest with the hinge... Look up the notch online. Just remember that you should be hiring a pro or at least take a cutter course... Wear chaps and remember to exit 45 degrees away from the direction of fall and be sure to clear that path first... With a lean you are going to need to know how to bore cut... But that is a bit out of your league... and way to dangerous until you understand kickback.

This is really a question for another forum so I will add something in for the vets... you can let a branch or even a peg peel.... It just need to be good wood for that Acer Negundo (Box Elder, Manitoba Maple) is mostly what I mean here. Today we had to take down 11 leaning trees and this is how I took one of the pegs down... On top of a 35 ft spar, I threw a monkey fist through a good union in another tree about 6 ft behind me, flicked it down until in hit the ground and used the oppisite end to support the spar, then I sailed down and set up a running bow on my off where I was tied in... 35ft of spar was 'bended' down and sat nicely on the new lawn (which we were told on the WO not to damage... within 3ft of the shed and 3 ft of a emerald cedar (brand new). 

Notches are good in most cases but not all... 

My opinion of coarse

Ashley
www.falunhr.org


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## BC WetCoast (Oct 9, 2009)

Several sticks of dynamite wrapped around the stem. Light the fuse and run.

Definately the safest way for a inexperienced cutter to remove a dangerous tree where there are no obstacles. There is probably a blaster on the island.


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## asetree (Oct 13, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> Several sticks of dynamite wrapped around the stem. Light the fuse and run.
> 
> Definately the safest way for a inexperienced cutter to remove a dangerous tree where there are no obstacles. There is probably a blaster on the island.



By this rationale you could also try setting the trees on fire.
A


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## AshTree (Oct 13, 2009)

*Felling a peg on fire...*

this reminds me of a Facebook video, forestry worker cutting down a fire on fire...

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=178403222795


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 13, 2009)

AshTree said:


> Humbolt is the way to go on a down hill cliff, any logger can tell you that.



An open face would be even better then humbolt. 45* scarf up or down will have the same closing time.


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## magnus (Oct 15, 2009)

Toddppm said:


> I don't remember what you said your winch is attached to but I get the feeling it's going to end up at the bottom of that hill with one of those trees.



each winch is attached to a standing live tree, about 40 cm diameter, usually crypto or acacia.

if i must use a stump, i go for the 80 cm ones.

is this safe?


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## magnus (Oct 15, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *Now back to Magnus' serious problem - dangerous trees (NOT SHRUBBERY) that have to come down - no reliable removal services available - no experience with this kind of takedown. It would be horrible to read about it on the injury forum.
> 
> He's come here for help! Someone's got to have some hard useable SAFE solution to his dilemma without ruining his property or himself - without flying over there to help him ... RIGHT?*



anyone want to fly out for a working vacation? they can camp at my house! good food and cheap wine...

looking forward to the serious advice.
trust me if i could hire someone else i would. there is nobody locally to help...and to seriously pay someone to fly here would bankrupt me.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 15, 2009)

magnus said:


> anyone want to fly out for a working vacation? they can camp at my house! good food and cheap wine...



Looks like a beautiful place. I'd consider it if I wasn't so busy right now. Could use a vacation and a sunny beach would more than fill the ticket. Someone's gotta take you up on this offer.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 15, 2009)

Wonder what a round trip ticket would cost from the states...


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## pdqdl (Oct 15, 2009)

magnus said:


> anyone want to fly out for a working vacation? they can camp at my house! good food and cheap wine...
> 
> looking forward to the serious advice.
> trust me if i could hire someone else i would. there is nobody locally to help...and to seriously pay someone to fly here would bankrupt me.



I looked up Flores, Portugal (in the Azores) on Google Earth. Tiny little spot, it looks like a great place to live. The image quality is excellent, tell us where you are at! We might even be able to see the trees, the cliff, and your house.


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## magnus (Oct 22, 2009)

39°27'58.28"N
31° 9'23.59"W


come on over!!


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## pdqdl (Oct 22, 2009)

Something seems to be wrong. I dialed in your lat & long, and I am on a hillside, but I don't see any house. From where I am looking, I could cut down everything on the hillside and miss you by 1/4 mile. Or is everything hiding under the trees?

The big tree at the top of the hill above the marker has a spread of 75'x100'. That is a pretty good sized tree.

Here is my view from Google Earth:







Maybe I am just close to where you are located. This view is about 3/4 Km straight west of the red dot that marks Fazenda De Santa Cruz


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 22, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Wonder what a round trip ticket would cost from the states...



Could not find a flight to Flores, but nonstop ORD to Madrid is >$700

Nothing nonstop to Lisboa (When I was with LF6F the Polizi there when on strike and beat the crap out of anyone they saw. A few buddies of mine included. I was lucky, being detatched for ag. washdowns in Rota, Sp.) second leg to LIS adds another $500+ to any round trip from anywhere. 

There must be only weekly flights to the island.


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## Plasmech (Oct 22, 2009)

Is it just me or did the original post disappear?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 22, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Is it just me or did the original post disappear?



It's not you, Plas (well, maybe it is, lol). Anyway, it's really confusing. I'll recap as best as I can.

*Magnus' *OP started the original thread at 10-01-2009, 10:45 AM ; titled _*"When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch?"*_ over on *Arborist 101*: (it's still there)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1746669#post1746669

Then at 10-01-2009, 01:01 PM, *TDunk's *OP started this thread, with the exact same title here on *Commercial Tree Care and Climbing*

People continued to post to both threads for a while, even Magnus posted his pix on both threads. Then the *Arborist101* thread seemed to fade away and this thread took control. I have no clue why it happened this way - maybe the mods did some manipulations or there was a bug or TDunk could have hit "Start new thread" instead of "Post reply". Your guess is as good as mine.


Jack

*ANY WAY, BACK TO THE ACTION!!! I'M ANXIOUS TO SEE WHO'S GOING TO FLY OVER THERE AND HELP MAGNUS - THAT'D BE WAY COOL!!!*
Google shows a pretty good size airstrip on the island.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 23, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> ...
> 
> *I'M ANXIOUS TO SEE WHO'S GOING TO FLY OVER THERE AND HELP MAGNUS - THAT'D BE WAY COOL!!!*
> Google shows a pretty good size airstrip on the island.



*COME ON ... Who's got a plane? *  
:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## pdqdl (Oct 23, 2009)

No doubt! I would love to go, but I'm afraid the only Eucalyptus that I have ever dropped have been in the back of my throat. I think that makes me unqualified, despite all my Midwest-U.S.A. experience.

I suspect these trees aren't really that tough, though. The pics don't look bad.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 23, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> No doubt! I would love to go, but I'm afraid the only Eucalyptus that I have ever dropped have been in the back of my throat. I think that makes me unqualified, despite all my Midwest-U.S.A. experience.
> 
> I suspect these trees aren't really that tough, though. The pics don't look bad.



That's the way I see it. There's plenty of guys on this site that could pack a tote full of gear, hop on a plane, and easily bang this out. Especially when you look back to what we used to work with. I've taken down many a tree with spurs, flipline, saddle, and a running rope. Was it pretty, no, but almost any tree can be done with very limited equipment if you know what you're doing. I seriously wish I had the free time and cash, I'd go in a heartbeat.


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## pdqdl (Oct 23, 2009)

I suspect that tiny island is an Atlantic paradise. I am especially attracted to the remote nature of the place, and it is a lot closer than all the Pacific islands that I have been wishing I could go to. 

Living under Portuguese rule might have some drawbacks...Tell us what your little island is like, Magnus. There must be some good reasons that a non-portuguese speaking person like yourself would live there.


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## eljefe (Oct 24, 2009)

*Re: Felling against lean*

Hi, I've come into this kind of late and the threads are kind of hard to follow. But, not withstanding a beautiful island and someone of us on a plane going out to help. 

I am thinking the problem is this: Making a face cut in a smallish tree against the lean. Put in the face cut first as is usual. The trees sets back leaning even more. Winches put pressure on the tree to pull it toward the direction of intended fall. This puts alot of pressure at the site of the cut and increases the possibility of a barber chair. Now we do the back cut and it sets back on the saw. More winch pressure and so on. 

OK try this: Put the winches in as usual. Then put in the back cut first deep enough to allow the use of wedges. Use plastic or wood wedges. The wedges will keep the kerf open and keep the trunk from setting back. Also driving in the wedges will help the winches with their work. Now put in the face cut. As mentioned by others here I would use a face cut that keeps it on the hinge for as long as possible. Beranek uses the term "ultra wide face" After the face cut is in then insert the saw back into the back cut in front of the wedges and finish cut to the hinge. Keep pounding on the wedges. On small trees the wedges don't have as much leverage but they do have some and will, of course, keep the tree from setting down on the saw. When there is danger of a barber chair I hook a piece of log chain above the cut. Take a wedge and drive it inbetween the chain and the tree to keep it tight if necessary. And most importantly be safe with a good escape route. I read about this method somewhere, but can't quite remember where. I have used it with good success a number of times, as the nicks in my wedges will attest.

I hope that I understood your problem and have given you a safe solution. 
Eljefe

p.s. the dratted spell checker dosen't know the work kerf! In an arborist website no less


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## AshTree (Oct 24, 2009)

*Bore Cut*

You could do it this way, but why not bore cut? Make your notch, bore in to set up your hinge, come back to leave a nice strap and make a snap cut style back cut. Everything is set then you walk over to the winch or 5:1, pull it over with ease. I have done this with the winch on the chipper with a redirect... Worked out great. Hit the rope winch and watch it go...

opcorn:

Ash

www.clearwisdom.net


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## jomoco (Oct 24, 2009)

Thanks for pointing this thread out to me Magnus. I'm rather shocked by the range of advice you've gotten in it both good and bad thus far, particularly from arborists completely unfamiliar with the treacherous hinging characteristics of eucs in general.

Unless a euc is pulled over exactly 180 degrees opposite it's lean, it's not going to hold it's hinge long enough for it to get past it's vertical balance point and fall anywhere near where you want it to at all.

They are one of the most treacherously weak hinge holding species of trees around, their wood grain is so convuluted that the only wood splitters capable of splitting it are the larger models due to their raw HP and shearing ability.

Another important factor in pulling over eucs is finding a bull line tie point in the tree that's centered over your face cut below it, and of sufficient size and strength to withstand the tremendous amount of pulling force exerted on it to pull it up and over center. If for any reason that pulling point fails, you and your house's well being are in serious trouble. If the tree is 30 inches DBH then any tie in wood under 12 inches is getting a bit iffy in a euc.

To gain enough pulling power with your winch to get the tree safely over center will probably require placing a heavy duty steel pulley in the tree at the pull point so you can double the pulling power on your winch.

And for heavens sakes don't do any kind of cutting at all on the tree until after your rigging is set up and you're exerting 2-3K lbs of pulling force on the tree with your winch!

A typical western face cut with about a 60 degree range comprising 1/3rd of the tree's dia is fine, gunned straight at your winch. Your finish cut needs to be at the same heigth as your face cut's apex, and be perfectly parallel to the apex's axis. Leave at least 3-4 inches of hinge on a euc of that size, back your finish cut with wedges. Work in conjunction with your winch operator by either radio or cell phone. At 4 inches of hinge have him pulling for all he's worth, if you see a little movement at the pulling point in the tree in the direction you want, cut a little more in the finish cut to a 3 inch hinge, but no more. Once it's over center and falling, that 3 inch hinge won't hold for long at all, maybe 20-30 degrees past vertical if you're lucky.

So unless you can set up wour winching point exactly 180 degrees off your tree's lean, with enough winch line to pull your compound bull line twice the distance needed to get the tree over center and falling in the right direction?

Don't do it, not with a treacherous euc!

The trees in your pics don't look to me like they're any kind of imminent hazard at all Magnus, so take your sweet time and try to fly in an expert to do the work as barter for free lodging at an exotic island vacation point!

Whatever you do, be careful and have a clear escape route from the base cut in case a rope snaps or any other failure occurs.

Getting a pro in there to do it for you is your very best choice, particularly when your working those treacherous Australian weeds down.

Good luck Magnus!

jomoco


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