# Brave New World



## bitzer (May 29, 2015)

What happens when the assassins accuse the assassin?


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## chucker (May 29, 2015)

??? it could be an "assituation" of a like of equal association with assimilation???


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## bitzer (May 29, 2015)

We are the hollow men. We are the stuffed men.


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## spindrift7mm (May 30, 2015)

Bitzer have you been using Stihl Ultra again ?


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## Creeker (May 30, 2015)

Sniffing it ?


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## KiwiBro (May 30, 2015)

Mainlining it?

But yeah, moderation is a vexed issue. A walk on slippery rocks.


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## madhatte (May 30, 2015)

Assicution?


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## KiwiBro (May 30, 2015)

AntidisASStablishmentarianism ?


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## bitzer (May 30, 2015)

Shape without form. Shade without color.


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## northmanlogging (May 30, 2015)

Ok I was the one drunk and eating pills last night... wtf am I missing here?


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## spindrift7mm (May 30, 2015)

Don't know but I think Bitzer's winning


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## 2dogs (May 30, 2015)

One pill makes you larger, one pill makes you small.


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## northmanlogging (May 30, 2015)

But the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all...


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## bitzer (May 30, 2015)

Paralyzed force. Gesture without motion.


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## lone wolf (May 30, 2015)




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## KiwiBro (May 30, 2015)

Blue on black. Tears on a river. Push on a shove.

Joker on jack. Match on fire. Cold on ice.

Whisper on a scream.


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## HuskStihl (May 30, 2015)

Bitzer against the machine.


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## KiwiBro (May 30, 2015)

BATM




Take the powa back.


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## HuskStihl (May 30, 2015)

"Some of those that work skidders, are the same who burn Huskies"


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## KiwiBro (May 30, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> "Some of those that work skidders, are the same who burn Huskies"


Brilliant. 

Raise up your ear, I'll drop the tree and clear
It's the bitzer and the lyrics they fear
The bitz is relentless
We need a clearcut with a quickness
You are the witness of change
And to counteract
We gotta take the husky back


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## HuskStihl (May 31, 2015)

"They rally 'round your family, with a crummy full of stihl's
-Bitz on parade

Hang in there Bitz, there's always the chainsaw forum!


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## 2dogs (May 31, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> "They rally 'round your family, with a crummy full of stihl's
> -Bitz on parade
> 
> Hang in there Bitz, there's always the chainsaw forum!


 Hey maybe Bitzer wants to argue about oil all day long. Every day.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

Hey @KiwiBro: There's a couple of folks at camp this week. They aren't banned, just camping. They are there because they broke the rules multiple times and continued even after being warned. And being one of them enforced the rules in the past, he knew darn well what he was doing was wrong from the start.

If you have a problem with someone making personal attacks, just click that little word that says "report" at the bottom of the post. The mods will be happy to take care of it. We've received many unsolicited PM's asking us to break up the three way "peeing contest" that this forum in particular has had to deal with. And steps have been taken to deal with it.

Darin and Jen have made it clear that everyone is welcome here as long as they can act like an adult. Up to and including Brush Ape.


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> But the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all...



Go ask Alice...


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## KiwiBro (Jun 1, 2015)

svk said:


> Hey @KiwiBro: If you have a problem with someone making personal attacks, just click that little word that says "report" at the bottom of the post.


 Thanks for this and I want to point out that generally, the moderation on this site is far better than many other sites, but if you get to the point of relying upon experienced loggers, distinct from the snivelling general populous, to hit the 'snitch' button rather than stay motivated to provide their experiences or even just chat about more than which oil, whether their firewood stack looks big in that picture, or shaving .8765442309 seconds off a cookie cut with the latest mod, you've let it get far too far out of line. I can't vouch for others but when I see untold niggling BS by antagonists amounting to a virtual campaign of disrespect, that goes unchallenged by moderators over a long time, and people faced with grassing or walking, then I can certainly see why they'd choose the latter, and this site, which already struggles to stay 'up', would be poorer if they did.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

I agree that some of the topics on here are minutiae at best. And I agree that the site has lost good folks over the years for various reasons. At the same point we aren't going to let certain members operate above the rules because of their experience level (whether actual or perceived). Although there may have been special treatment of certain members in the past I can promise there will not be as long as this group of mods are around. 

And again I'll reiterate: If someone comes in here and is blatantly trying to stir the crap just report the post and move on. Don't even give them the attention/validation they are looking for.


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## Marshy (Jun 1, 2015)

KiwiBro said:


> Thanks for this and I want to point out that generally, the moderation on this site is far better than many other sites, but if you get to the point of relying upon experienced loggers, distinct from the snivelling general populous, to hit the 'snitch' button rather than stay motivated to provide their experiences or even just chat about more than which oil, whether their firewood stack looks big in that picture, or shaving .8765442309 seconds off a cookie cut with the latest mod, you've let it get far too far out of line. I can't vouch for others but when I see untold niggling BS by antagonists amounting to a virtual campaign of disrespect, that goes unchallenged by moderators over a long time, and people faced with grassing or walking, then I can certainly see why they'd choose the latter, and this site, which already struggles to stay 'up', would be poorer if they did.


 
I guess I dont see your point because from my point of view most arguments are based on opinions not facts. "They" non logers are entitled to exist and eat pie too. Thats why the forum has different sections to it, not everyone is alike and some times you will get one that wanders into your lion den and pokes at you. But we have to coexist and not batter eachother.
We agreed to take on the mod title to help the site grow, not to weed out misfits or trouble makers but there is a line in which it does need to happen. Im pretty lenient about things and always open minded but there has to be a line in the sand somewhere... what if any do you propose we do different?


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

So you can't tell the truth around here? Where is the line? Again what do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? You just going to keep deleting me? I suppose I should just slink into the shadows quietly. Delete the whole thread and all will be forgotten. Delete the F&L section entirely. You are doing it slowly already. 

I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

If you are able to put up a post without profanity and does not violate any other forum rules then it can stay up. It's that simple.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

Its not my fault the site doesn't block certain words. I type in what I want and it auto blocks it right? I didn't use any fancy spelling and this isn't church. Is it a rule to not talk about why real loggers have been driven away while insatiable jerks like whitespider can continually harrass for days on end while no one does anything? The line in the sand is drawn by those that hold the stick.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

First of all you shouldn't be writing those words whether or not the censor catches them. 

Secondly nobody is driving away any subset of this forum. 

Finally as I have stated multiple times all you need to do with a post that could be construed as trolling is to hit "report". In the time I've been a mod I've yet to see a WS post flagged in any forum within this site. 

There are only a handful of mods on here and we do not read every post. We respond to and monitor threads that are reported to us. If you have a problem with something or someone on the site it's very simple to alert the staff and if they are in violation we will take measures to resolve things per the site rules.


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## Marshy (Jun 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> ... I feel like you two were involved in a conversation about cutting a tree a few months ago that I had to comment on because I felt like informing the poster about a better way. I don't remember the details, but I do remember your names.


I doubt it, I make limited advice on cutting. I'm no expert on falling, I know just enough to be dangerous.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

Marshy said:


> I doubt it, I make limited advice on cutting. I'm no expert, just enough to be dangerous.


That didn't make sense to me either. Lots of people giving out advice about felling but I'm not usually one of them.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

You guys are top shelf. Keep up the good work. I think I've made my point or at least the point I was allowed to make. 

Cool points to anyone who can guess the author of my random qoutes! No they are not mine. I have plenty of my own. I just felt his applied in this situation. No cheating either!


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Its not my fault the site doesn't block certain words. I type in what I want and it auto blocks it right? I didn't use any fancy spelling and this isn't church. Is it a rule to not talk about why real loggers have been driven away while insatiable jerks like whitespider can continually harrass for days on end while no one does anything? The line in the sand is drawn by those that hold the stick.




Well said. I hope they quit deleting your posts.
There have been a lot of good loggers on here who got tired of the ankle biters, weekend warriors, and wannabes. 
It's not their presense we object to, most of us have gone out of our way to make a real attempt to answer honest questions, give advice when it was asked for and to share what we know.
What we find objectionable are people who come to the F&L threads for no other reason than to annoy us. 
We're not choir boys and this isn't Cub Scouts. If somebody asks our advice and then argues with us he gets slammed, pure and simple. Most of us will take the time to help somebody but we won't suffer fools. 
If people's tender little feelings are wounded by what they read here maybe they'd be better off some place else.
Some of the best loggers I know have left AS, discouraged and disgusted. Some of them were good friends of mine, people I've worked with, and their contributions here were valuable.
I thought about leaving too but I've changed my mind. If you want to ban me for telling the truth go right ahead. 
But Bitzer is right and you guys need to listen to him. Soon.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

"Depth of face cut". Started March 5. Firewood section. Most of what you guys said was cool. I remember you in a worse light for some reason.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

Thanks Bob! Yeah its too bad. Too little too late.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

In all seriousness I'd certainly be interested to see a list of folks who have been "driven away" from this site and then cross reference it with their postings/conduct while on the site. Feel free to PM me on this subject and we can have a discussion. I've been around here for a decent amount of time and I've yet to see someone discouraged from the site without it having something to do with them breaking rules.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

I was one of those ankle biters not that long ago.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

svk said:


> In all seriousness I'd certainly be interested to see a list of folks who have been "driven away" from this site and then cross reference it with their postings/conduct while on the site. Feel free to PM me on this subject and we can have a discussion. I've been around here for a decent amount of time and I've yet to see someone discouraged from the site without it having something to do with them breaking rules.


I wish I had the time.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 1, 2015)

i have no clue what is going on.........i will be pizzed if you boys leave for some thing stupid. i havn't said this in open forums but if i could get this site to load right and not take forever i would offer to mod.

i don't even know if this post will post, if it does and i can't get back on, you all know where to find me. if you two Bobs do leave, find a way to keep in touch.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I wish I had the time.


You've brought up this issue several times already in this thread....yet you can't even name a couple? I'm all ears.


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## KiwiBro (Jun 1, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> if you two Bobs do leave, find a way to keep in touch.


Same here fellas, please.


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## bitzer (Jun 1, 2015)

svk said:


> You've brought up this issue several times already in this thread....yet you can't even name a couple? I'm all ears.


Start on page one of falling pics and read to present and you will find them all.


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Start on page one of falling pics and read to present and you will find them all.



That's a good example. Read through that thread and see how many of those guys are still here. Burvol was the real deal.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Start on page one of falling pics and read to present and you will find them all.


Really??? Come on now....lots of folks have moved on for various reasons. I'm asking for specific examples of folks who have been "driven away" as you have stated.


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You guys are top shelf. Keep up the good work. I think I've made my point or at least the point I was allowed to make.


Agree.


> Cool points to anyone who can guess the author of my random qoutes! No they are not mine. I have plenty of my own. I just felt his applied in this situation. No cheating either!


T.S. Eliot


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2015)

svk said:


> Really??? Come on now....lots of folks have moved on for various reasons. I'm asking for specific examples of folks who have been "driven away" as you have stated.




Hey, do your own research. Put in for some overtime. 
Read through Burvol's falling thread, read every post. You'll see some good loggers, people who know their trade, who aren't here any more. The reasons might not jump out at you but, then again, you're not a logger and the reasons might not be clear to you. They might not have made a big deal of it when they left but they were tired of the wannabes and people arguing with their advice. They chose not to make a fuss when they left but in PMs and in personal conversations they were very clear that they'd had enough.
We had a guy on here for awhile, NW Axeman, who was probably one of the best known fallers in the PNW. He's the guy they go to when there's a problem tree or any other tough piece of work. He spent a lot of time helping people on AS and put up with the arguments from people who wouldn't last ten minutes in his line of work. He had enough and withdrew.
Coastalfaller was another good one. He'd offer his opinions on different situations and those of us who know logging would listen. Those who didn't know logging would question his advice and deride his knowledge. He left, too.
There are others who just quietly gave up on this place and don't post any more. That's a loss to AS.


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2015)

svk said:


> Really??? Come on now....lots of folks have moved on for various reasons. I'm asking for specific examples of folks who have been "driven away" as you have stated.



See...you're doing the same thing the ankle biters do. You're arguing with good advice.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

It's too bad when any good contributor leaves. But leaving because people argue with you is a lot different than being chased away as bitzer is saying. 

I've been here a short 6 years and I'd say the whole place has turned over a solid three times. Sure there are folks who have been here longer but those are fewer and further between. It seems like the average forum member stays on a site 2-3 years. That's just the way it goes.


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## svk (Jun 1, 2015)

Gologit said:


> See...you're doing the same thing the ankle biters do. You're arguing with good advice.


No I am not. I asked for specific examples of who and why. I didn't ask to be referred to an old thread. He didn't give advice. He made a broad brush statement and then won't back it up with examples.


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## 2dogs (Jun 2, 2015)

svk said:


> First of all you shouldn't be writing those words whether or not the censor catches them.
> 
> Secondly nobody is driving away any subset of this forum.
> 
> ...



I beg to differ here. I have been violated twice for profanity. The first time I used asterisks where a cuss word would have been. I was warned to not to try to fool the sensor, just type the word and the sensor will change my word to asterisks. The second time I typed in the word and the sensor didn't catch it because I used the plural form. I was warned to not to try to fool the sensor. WFT? I did exactly what you told me to do. I have never seen a list of words the sensor will correct but I am supposed to know them. Typing a word in the plural form was no attempt to sneak a word in.

BTW I was also violated twice for harassing a fellow member. The first was HBRN a few days before he was banned for good. The second time I called out a fellow member who is still here for BSing. He was. And he still does but when he shows up with yet another story I don't say anything. I don't have to, other ASers hammer him pretty good without me.


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## svk (Jun 2, 2015)

2dogs said:


> I beg to differ here. I have been violated twice for profanity. The first time I used asterisks where a cuss word would have been. I was warned to not to try to fool the sensor, just type the word and the sensor will change my word to asterisks. The second time I typed in the word and the sensor didn't catch it because I used the plural form. I was warned to not to try to fool the sensor. WFT? I did exactly what you told me to do. I have never seen a list of words the sensor will correct but I am supposed to know them. Typing a word in the plural form was no attempt to sneak a word in.
> 
> BTW I was also violated twice for harassing a fellow member. The first was HBRN a few days before he was banned for good. The second time I called out a fellow member who is still here for BSing. He was. And he still does but when he shows up with yet another story I don't say anything. I don't have to, other ASers hammer him pretty good without me.


Your "record" shows a total of two violations in 8 years. I'd say you just about qualify for a citizenship award.

Now it's possible that you may have had a post or two deleted. That stuff happens especially when people get caught up in a thread that is spiraling out of control. But that's akin to having the highway patrol flash their lights at you when you are driving a little too fast. 

And again with profanity just don't write it. Plain and simple. What's wrong with darn, blasted, flippin, jerk, or moron in place of those other words?


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## bitzer (Jun 2, 2015)

[QUOTE="svk, post: 5389614, member: 41967

And again with profanity just don't write it. Plain and simple. What's wrong with darn, blasted, flippin, jerk, or moron in place of those other words?[/QUOTE]

We are not ten tears old.


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## bitzer (Jun 2, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> Agree.
> 
> T.S. Eliot


You get the prize! I'm sure you realize my sarcasm about their top shelf status.


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## svk (Jun 2, 2015)

bitzer said:


> We are not ten tears old.


And therefore you are capable of following the rules. 

We've bantered back and forth for an entire day here because people didn't follow the rules then cried foul when they were called to the carpet. 

I'm pretty much done with this argument. If you take exception to the site rules you are welcome to send a PM to Darin or Mrs A with your case and suggestions for modifications.


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## Gologit (Jun 2, 2015)

svk said:


> If you have a problem with someone making personal attacks, just click that little word that says "report" at the bottom of the post. The mods will be happy to take care of it.



Most of us would prefer to deal with personal attacks on a personal basis. Running to the mods like a wimpy little kid who got bullied on the playground isn't really the way we're used to dealing with problems.


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## svk (Jun 2, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Most of us would prefer to deal with personal attacks on a personal basis. Running to the mods like a wimpy little kid who got bullied on the playground isn't really the way we're used to dealing with problems.


If you choose to deal with a personal attack by launching another personal attack you are just as wrong as the person who started it. Like I told you by PM yesterday, don't feed the troll. By answering him you are going exactly where he wants you to go.

In your everyday life I really don't care how you solve your problems. When you are on this site you are expected to follow the rules that Jen and Darin have created. 

Reporting a post isn't being wimpy (unless you are the person instigating and then flag posts when people call you on it). I'd more compare it to flipping the switch in a gas station bathroom that says "please flip this switch if the restroom is in need of service". It's not your job to clean up messes on this site.


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