# Barber Chair question



## smokechase II (Jan 10, 2006)

In the geographic area you work in, which tree species seem to be either the most prone to or least prone to barber chairing?

Thanks


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 10, 2006)

Geographical area is the key word. I just expressed my case in the Cutting Tips topic with a fella from B.C.


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## JimL (Jan 10, 2006)

I had a poplar split a week ago or so, had a good 30 degree lean on it, I felled it with the lean, bore cut, maybe 1" wide hinge wood, still split.


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## John Ellison (Jan 10, 2006)

In this area everything is less than 100'. Its hard to get a good barberchair. Southern yellow pine or hardwood, it will all split but I have never seen it be spectacular.
My personal best was on the west coast with a small spruce and the co. safety man was standing next to me. It was kind of like two dummies watching fireworks until we realized it was right over our head. We were both pretty green.
The wierdest one I ever seen was in Ak. and never had a saw cut in it. I was a choker setter and the hooktender had just rigged a lift tree. It was not topped. Two 11" Young blocks, two chokers and two sections of haywire were hanging from the tree. He had just got down, took off the belt and spurs and walked away when we heard a noise looked over and the darn tree barberchaired from some fault about five feet up. Sure gave him a scare. Seems like he would have noticed it if it was bad enough to do that but you never know. It was a spruce.
I know alder are bad out there too.


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## Newfie (Jan 10, 2006)

Ash are always good for a barber chair, oak w/ a real good lean.


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## smokechase II (Jan 11, 2006)

Tree Sling'r and JimL:
I'm changing the way I cut potential barber chairs after listening to you guys.
For years I did the triangle back cut that nipped the holding wood corners. Then I went about 10-12 years ago to the bore and out the back. But listening to you I'm not sold on just perfect holding wood any more. I'm still gonna bore, at least most of the time, but will also be either cutting some wood in the center from the face side or nipping the corners also.
Just because I haven't had it happen to me doesn't mean I shouldn't change.


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## JimL (Jan 11, 2006)

I have had Poplar, ash, sasafras and oak barber chair on me, 

Bore cutting helps, Ive cut the center of the hinge out on some trees, did it help? who knows. I cut corners on some, especially high $$ logs, less chance of pulling splinters. Every tree is different thats for sure..


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Jan 12, 2006)

I agree with Mike here in New England a leaning Oak and Ash would be the worse..just make sure you bore cut makes life so much easier 

Rob


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## b1rdman (Jan 19, 2006)

StIhL MaGnUm said:


> I agree with Mike here in New England a leaning Oak and Ash would be the worse..just make sure you bore cut makes life so much easier
> 
> Rob



I'll second the Ash. Every time I run across a leaning Ash I shake my head and think back to the days when I would wrap a chain around trunk and hope for the best. I didn't even know about a bore cut until I stumbled onto AS.


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## PWB (Jan 19, 2006)

Had a cherry with a 30-40 degree lean , maybe 15" diameter split about 30 feet last winter. Left wood standing about 10 feet up, did NOT get hung up in the air.

Was a GOOD reminder to be careful. Knew the tree was dangerous, had lots of room to run, etc.

Good thing it was destined for firewood, saved a lot of work............................ :bang:


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## Tree Machine (Jan 19, 2006)

This hickory surprised me.


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## RaisedByWolves (Feb 1, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> This hickory surprised me.



Probably cause your so young!


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## Freakingstang (Feb 3, 2006)

had my first two barber chairs last weekend. One was a 16" ash with a 25-30 degree lean. Open face notch, bore and back cut. Barbered about 4 1/2 feet up.

2nd was a 20" cherry with the same lean (25-30). Same deal, open face notch, bore and back cut. Barbered about 3 feet up. First one scared me, 2nd one made me wonder what I was doing wrong.


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## clearance (Feb 3, 2006)

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Any tree will chair under the right circumstances. Cottonwoods and maples are bad for it here. I like to cut the backcut with the triangle method, then quickly cut it, sometimes finishing with one hand on my saw. I look to try and predict what will go where if it does chair and make my escape paths accordingly. Big saw, sharp, full of gas and oil.


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## John Ellison (Feb 3, 2006)

Freakingstang, possibily left too thick of a hinge?


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## smokechase II (Feb 3, 2006)

*Possibily left too thick of a hinge?*

Freakingstang;
The too thick of a hinge is a good guess. Of course, what actually is too thick of a hinge is a variable from species to species, tree to tree.
Can you get us a photo or two?
Have even a small Dutchman? Did either of the trees start over, {with movement at the hinge}, then barber chair, or did they just split immediately with a higher fulcrum?
I'm pretty well convinced after reading here at AS that more than just a boring back cut is needed. If for no other reason than to guarantee that a holding wood thickness error or off-side Dutchman or unnecessary wedging or pulling a tree or excessive wedging or wind gust or defect in the tree or shallow face or narrow face or a face that matches up with a split will not have its way. Did I mention two heavy duty binders above head level for ground falling?
I'm gonna come out and say that a center face bore and/or nipping the corner holding wood should be SOP on barber chair avoidance.
One of the things that was mandatory with the old triangle, then in fast back cut for barber chair potential trees was that you nipped the corners as part of each triangle cut. I'm certain that was what made that cut work.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 3, 2006)

When he plunged, he was to the backside of the hinge. After the plunge, the cut needs to move forward over top, or past the vertical plane of the wedge cut. Then you do your inside-to-outside through the backside of the tree, and bail. To do this effectively, you need the upper of the two front cuts to come in at a shallow angle. To do this, either, 10 a thinner wedge, 20 a deeper wedge or 3) a Humbolt.

I'm a little out of my league essplainin' this because we have pro's here that do felling, notching and dropping for a living. The world's experts in this are all around us here. I'm not at their level, but I'll clarify by adding a picture, and am open for correction.


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## JimL (Feb 3, 2006)

you won't be cutting over your notch on poplar, that crap breaks off like its a piece of chalk


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## Nickrosis (Feb 3, 2006)

Cutting through your notch whether you're bore cutting or making a conventional notch and backcut is risky business. Once it's moving, it has no hinge to work with and could fall practically anywhere - most likely where it's lean is and can bounce off other trees and objects.

So, leaving your hinge is quintessential, at least for the first 150,000 trees that you cut, so I've been told. Beyond that you're old enough that you will probably die first from other causes.

Like other people have said, if you think it's going to barberchair, bore cut. If you feel comfortable doing it and have had good results, take out the center of the hinge or cut the sides of the hinge. It's all about the hinge! I don't have all the experience, but there are a few simple rules here.

Like clearance mentioned, your escape paths should be away from the tree's direction off fall and not directly behind the tree. If it barberchairs, the wood can/will kick up with a lot of force, possibly taking you out or someone who thinks they're helping you.


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## vince (Feb 3, 2006)

is a bore cut the same thing as a plunge cut and what is the proper way to make this cut. seems like you would potentially right in the path of a falling tree or right behind depending on how the cut is made


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## Tree Machine (Feb 3, 2006)

Bore and plunge are the same. You do it 90 degrees to the direction of the fell, so you're off to one side. Expect kickback. Only the most skilled can avoid kickback when plunging in with the tip of the bar.


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## mike385 (Feb 3, 2006)

I have cut the way our forefathers have taught and I have barberchaired trees. I have bore cut with the teaching of a swede, you know what? IT HAPPENS! Make darn sure that you are out of the way of the stump. Isn't that what they tell you? I just cut a tulip poplar on fri. and barber chaired it, guess what? I don't care, buy timber in a ravine, and that is gonna happen. I don't care what tree it is, I am getting the hell away from the stump. Most of the poop of the falling world falls there.
mike


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## clearance (Feb 3, 2006)

Never, ever cut off your holding wood, recipe for disaster. Make sure that your undercut is cleaned out and has no dutchman. People (Treespyder especially) keep talking about using dutchmen, makes me very annoyed. Dutchmen are strictly prohibited and an offence under the compensation act here. I will never tell an old west coast faller what to do because I have too much respect and am not a faller. If they use them, fine. People here are not west coast fallers (maybe 1 or 2), don't go there. Keep it simple, make two escape paths away in the direction where the potential slab won't get you. Practice on some little leaners if you are not sure. Chairs kill people, nothing to intellectualize, or theorize. My favorite is the chain at face hieght, 3/8 grade 70 min. with a load binder.


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## jp hallman (Feb 3, 2006)

Well there you go, sounds good to me. Dutchman used right is a huge plus for directional felling(like keeping a leaner off the highway). I've seen trees do everything but jump straight up. I cut Humboldt(who doesn't?). Face cut, cut the sapwood on each side(nip the corners), bore out from the hinge leaving a "holding post". Cut the holding post from barkside in. Tree falls like it has eyes on it(where you want it to fall). MOST of the time! Oh, and sweat bullets if you have any thought it might go wrong. That's why west coast fellers work six hour days. That and the fact they have lots of windshield time.


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## clearance (Feb 4, 2006)

JP-some people here don't even know what a humbolt is. A while back I got in a talk with some eastern fellows here that never use it, according to them the mills don't like them? Where I was working today (climbing to windfirm) the show was ugly. Big red cedar snags all over, marms, multistems with leaners into them, etc.. Every time I see what fallers have to cut I have more respect, all the bad is below me when I cut, for them it is all over head. Up here on the Queen Charlotte Islands, north coast of B.C., 40 miles south of Alaska.


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## Freakingstang (Feb 4, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Freakingstang;
> The too thick of a hinge is a good guess. Of course, what actually is too thick of a hinge is a variable from species to species, tree to tree.
> Can you get us a photo or two?
> Have even a small Dutchman? Did either of the trees start over, {with movement at the hinge}, then barber chair, or did they just split immediately with a higher fulcrum?
> ...




It may have been too thick of a hinge on the first tree, but the 2nd, I shortened up the holding wood. I would say it was around two inches on the 1st tree and about 1 inch on the 2nd. The ash started to move, then barbered. The cherry didn't move before it barbered. Sorry, no pics. Wood has been cut and stump was cut flush on the ground.

When I do my notch, bore and back cut. I don't make my back cut all the way through. I'll pull the saw out with about 2" or so of holding wood (away from hinge holding wood)(depends on tree size) and then cut from the backside of the bore cut into the remaining bore. I like this as I have more control and an easier escape path.

What is a dutchman? I haven't heard the term, but then again, I know other ways, just not what they are called. Would a humbolt notch have been better in a possible chair situation? 

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions,

Steve


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## John Ellison (Feb 4, 2006)

Steve, a dutchman is where one or both of the saw cuts for the face or notch extend past the intersection where they meet. In the situation you are talking about, you would want to avoid that because it can cause a barberchair.
To be sure we are on the same track, the talk about holding wood thickness is the horizontal thickness or width.

There are reasons to use a humbolt or not, but as far as b.chairs are concerned it makes no difference. If it is a heavy leaner and your face has a 90 deg. opening the tree will be almost on the ground by the time the face closes. 

One inch may well be too thick of a hinge if it is the full width of the stump.


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## smokechase II (Feb 5, 2006)

*barber chair questions*

Freakingstang:
"was around two inches on the 1st tree and about 1 inch on the 2nd. The ash started to move, then barbered. The cherry didn't move before it barbered."
Your first tree could have been from a thin Dutchman kerf closing quickly. But not your second. I've had perhaps too much confidence in the plunge back-cut to avoid a barber chair. *After listening on this site I'm making sure I do a plunge face bore from now on. I believe one should consider that cut for both the plunge or triangle cut.*
Among the primary cause of barber chairs that are listed under various sources:
1) Dutchman,
2) Shallow and or narrow face,
3) Face cut ‘matching up’ with a split in tree,
4) Back cut not at correct height to face,
5) Driving Wedges too hard or unnecessary wedging,
6) Wind, 
7) Pulling a tree,
8) Improper hinge wood width,
9) Failing to nip corners or bore out center of hinge,
10) Not placing binders, 
11) Defect in tree,
12) One tree leaning into or being fell into another, (look, that 2nd tree
could still cause you plenty of problems if it chairs),
13) 

Barber chair avoidance includes many options:
a) Consider a deep/high face and make sure no Dutchman,
b) Consider a face bore in the center holding wood,
c) Consider one of two techniques on the back-cut|
First; bore(plunge the back/bring it forward to the desired holding wood)
then toward the back, then chase a 3"-5" strap.
Second; triangle the back, making sure to nip the holding wood at the 
corners, then in from the back with a sharp saw, not letting up.
d) Wrapping the tree to stop the split, best to go with two, above head high
e) Consider cutting the corner holding wood even with the plunge,
f) Don't wedge a leaner that you are falling with the lean at all,
g) Don't drive wedges hard on trees/species that you know have a chair 
tendency without having done a face bore or holding wood corner nip.
h) Get your holding wood right for that particular trees size/weight/lean(s)/
limbs/wind/defect(s)/dryness and other variables.
i) Don't fall certain trees with a wind that could be that lever that enhances
the splitting potential,
j) Don't let Jim/Bob pull real hard on that line from the tree top to the 
back of his pick-up.
k) Make sure that a split in a tree doesn't match up with face where the 
face comes up a couple inches short and parallel to that split. 
l) 

From Tree Sling'r, paraphrased: _My hinge wood was 1 inch wide … the reason this tree barber chaired; it was a Doug Fir combined with wedging to counter a lean. Doug Fir; … many times your hinge needs to be narrower than a pine or white fir. If I would have expected a barber chair I would have bored a little bit of wood out from the middle of the tree through the face cut and would also have made a deeper undercut. 
Doug fir is … so tough._
Sooooo. Know what you’re cutting and consider that face bore.

From John Ellison in Arkansas, paraphrased: _The weirdest one was a spruce in Alaska. It never had a saw cut in it … the hook tender had just rigged a lift tree. It was not topped. Two 11" blocks, two chokers and two sections of haywire were hanging from the tree. He had just taken off the belt and spurs … we heard a noise and the tree barber chaired from some fault inside starting at 5 feet. No wind at all._
Sooooo. Don’t believe that OSHA web site that says that barber chairs occur during just the latter part of the fall.

From Jim in the Mid-west, paraphrased: _I had a poplar split a week ago or so, 
had a good 30 degree lean on it. I fell it with the lean, bore cut the back, 
maybe 1" wide hinge wood, still split._
Sooooo. Don’t depend on just that back bore, it can make for a precise hinge, but the continuity of that hinge needs to be broken up. 

What did I forget or misstate?


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## 046 (Feb 6, 2006)

check out this flash of barber chair

http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/barberchair 1.swf


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## wradman (Mar 6, 2006)

*barberchair question*

I would have to say hemlock and cedar are high risk for chairs 
not much problem with pine,fir,balsam etc. 
anytime you make a bad cut there is a risk of a barberchair,especially when you are new double check your undercut is clean ,don't be afraid to check your holding wood on the other side of the tree so you don't cut it off, first take your time the speed will come later.


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## clearance (Mar 6, 2006)

Wrad, if you really wanna see something chair, try a cottonwood, good tips, you are a faller, most here are arborists or weekend warriors, they only fall a bit, not tree after tree after tree. Really no excuse for an unclean, bad undercut when you are falling a butt log or one or two trees a day.


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 6, 2006)

I don't recall ever having a barberchair.
John


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## wradman (Mar 7, 2006)

*barberchair*

when i saw your comment dont' recall ever having a barberchair i thiought this guy hasn't been in the woods much i see the picture lololol good for you , you are cool you rock come sledding with me


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## sawn_penn (Mar 7, 2006)

If I'd posed next to that cut I'd have had my face covered....


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 7, 2006)

wradman said:


> when i saw your comment dont' recall ever having a barberchair i thiought this guy hasn't been in the woods much i see the picture lololol good for you , you are cool you rock come sledding with me



Glad you liked the play on words and the picture.

Anyway, at the risk of looking like a cull, I try to share my mistakes and victories with others so that a real world story can be depicted.
The above was a barber chair looking for a barber. I was falling in high winds, (not too bright), the centre was dozy, bar was too short and I was trying to fall it away from it's natural lean.
A big gust of wind kinda flung it off the stump.:jawdrop:   
So here is how I saved some wood fibre and created a safe work situation.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 7, 2006)

This other time I had a few other barberchairs before I knew how to file.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 7, 2006)

This is why it's extremely important to hire a licenced arborist as oposed to a hack artist. This tree company was a subsidiary of Lambert Logging called Rip Torn.
John


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## wradman (Mar 7, 2006)

*chair*

there is one problem you are using that tiny little saw to cut down big wood, that's gotta be a real fight in itself. picture #2 was that a windstorm or what happenned there.


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 7, 2006)

i noticed someone (clearance i think) mentioned the triangle method backcut... what's that? Worst barberchair i had was on an 24' alder... it barberchaired on me and apparently i sprang backwards just like a cat cuz next thing you know i was lying on my back and amazing distance from the tree with my 365 still in my hand...


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## smokechase II (Mar 7, 2006)

*triangle backcut*

The oldest cutting method of avoiding a barber chair is the triangle back cut; it dates from the cross cut days.

Put in your face, your back cut is in three cuts.
The first two come forward at about a 45 degree angle pointing in.
They go through actually into the undercut just near the outer edge of the hinge, usually by 1-3", depending on the size of the tree.
So the holding wood is "nipped at both corners". The first two portions of the back cut form a triangle.
This is done on heavy leaners that you are dropping with or very close to the lean.

Then, with a sharp saw, properly tuned, full tank, you power through that baby and get 'er done. It wasn't uncommon to hear old school loggers remark that you'd be a fool to leave the trees once it starts splitting. Got to see that cut all the way through or you're in trouble sonny boy.
Extremely important that the holding wood gets nipped at both corners.
No wedging, of course on a heavy leaner.

Most would recommend the boring back-cut in preference. One caveat I'd suggest is that you break up the continuity of the hinge. That could be with nipping the corners again or a face center bore prior to back cut. I'm saying that as I've read several accounts here on arborsite that are of plunge back-cutters that did not do that and had barber chairs. Seems to be more likely in ash. 

I've changed my procedure because of what I've read here.
I'm actually doing a face center bore first, _then_ face cut, then corner nip, then bore back. Based on a posts from John Ellison, and others.


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## wradman (Mar 7, 2006)

*try this*

if you look in the thread tree half way down i put in an attatchment that relates you your question also.
If your having problems with barberchairs with trees that do not have a heay lean, you are not using proper falling techniques.
The only time you have problems with chairs are in heavy winds,or hard leaning trees, The species plays a part roll but your cuts lining up are the most important , spend a little more time on your undercut and you will be surprised what you can accomplish, after about 10 years of production falling you won't even think about it .
if i don't have to wedge it a 2 foot spruce takes me less than 2 minutes from start to finish


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 7, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Most would recommend the boring back-cut in preference. One caveat I'd suggest is that you break up the continuity of the hinge.



Is that to weaken the hinge so that it will break before a barberchair can happen? Make the hinge the weak link?


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## clearance (Mar 8, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> The oldest cutting method of avoiding a barber chair is the triangle back cut; it dates from the cross cut days.
> 
> Put in your face, your back cut is in three cuts.
> The first two come forward at about a 45 degree angle pointing in.
> ...


I like my holding wood to be intact on leaners, not nipped, other than that how you decribed is what I do. Of course there can be a little more to it, like cutting a little of the backcut from the undercut, you have to make sure that the rest of the backcut is a little higher though, not matching the undercut. Whatever makes you happy, a powerfull, sharp saw that is full is a must.


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## smokechase II (Mar 8, 2006)

*barber chairs*

Wradman:
"The only time you have problems with chairs are in heavy winds, or hard leaning trees," 

There are other times where chairing should be guarded against.

1) This is an arborist site. Many of these guys here pull things over with ropes to pick-ups, jet skis or their buddy. The rope stuff is going to be obviously a copy cat to the wind effect.
2) One tree leaning into another. If you are cutting the tree that is being leaned into be ready again for the wind equivalent. (Of course, not approved)
3) Defect in the tree. You may or may not be able to spot this from an external inspection prior to cutting. It's not a perfect world. Be ready with alternative escape routes.
4) Your face cut matching up with a split in the tree. Picture your face being parallel to and about 4" short of a split in a 30" leaner. Bingo.

Noted that you mentioned a 2 minute time limit on spruce.


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## smokechase II (Mar 8, 2006)

*Weaker hinge*

BlueRidgeMark:

"Is that to weaken the hinge so that it will break before a barber chair can happen? Make the hinge the weak link?"

The way one faller described it to me was that if the holding wood was broken up, it wouldn't be as likely to hold together enough to move the fulcrum up the tree.

Obviously, at least one objective is to get the hinge to break before a chair can occur. But I think a more correct way to state it is not that the hinge is the weak link, but that it is weaker from a chair producing perspective. With a face center bore, you could still have the same amount of square inches of hinge, (the hinge would be thicker - but because it is missing some from the center it could be the same size or very similar in size). This hinge wouldn't necessarily be weak, just constructed differently.

There are differences in the strength and flexibility of the heartwood and sapwood. This actually could get into a fairly complex discussion with regard to which wood would be best removed to break up the hinge continuity on any given tree/species etc.

Clearance makes the point that back-cut height to face height can influence chair potential.
This can work two ways.
Most of the chair stumps I see in Eastern Oregon have a small face and a back-cut that is too high to work with the face. This ineffective back-cut height can be viewed as falling without a face cut.

Check out the photo in the next post:

Note that the photo is of a cross cut tree (we're dry here-things rot slowly) from circa 1935.
You can still see the axe marks on the top of the face etc. We had a big railroad logging effort back in the first half of the 20th century. 
Photo was taken in late 2004, as I recall. 
Mostly note that the back cut height to smaller face was the problem.
(There was no dutchman - chopped out a proper conventional face)
The tree has rotted just a little, some of the outer wood has gone, but not enough that it would make this a legit face.
Trivia, the were more stumps in the area that showed that these guys were rookies.

Then there is the view that hinge wood should be thought of not in square inches, but cubic inches. Right Clearance?


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## smokechase II (Mar 8, 2006)

*opps here is the photo*


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 8, 2006)

Interesting. Thanks for the detailed response, smoke.

How would those cubic inches be measured? The square is easy enough - it's the cross section of the holding wood. So, take that cross section multiplied by the vertical distance from the back cut to the angle of the face cut?


BTW, you have to upload that image before we can see it.


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## smokechase II (Mar 8, 2006)

*cubic inches*

Vertically:
Length (across the tree) x width (distance from apex of face to same plane as where the back-cut ends) x height (distance of back-cut above face.)
Awhile back someone had a post where they believed that a slanting back-cut, where one side is higher above the face, that the higher side had a greatly holding power than the shorter holding wood.

Now here is the key.

I don't have a clue.

My falling has been very heavily limited to dead or damaged trees on fires, cleaning up dead stuff etc. and thinning smaller pre-commercial stands.
When you cut dead or dried wood, you are cutting material that is much less likely to barber chair. I've never had a barber chair. My knowledge in this area could be viewed as he must be good, or more correctly, lacking.

So for all those reading on this site and you find something that could be from a rambling bozo. Beware. I am your second worst nightmare. Play your hand cautiously like BRMark has done here.
"How would those cubic inches be measured?" "Is that to weaken the hinge so that it will break before a barber chair can happen? Make the hinge the weak link?" Haven't I seen you on one of the poker shows on TV?

Best bet, book learn, then most importantly, find that local or three that seems to be really good and figure out what you can from them in the timber you deal with.

Trivia: I have heard the cubic inch theory, and read here of the higher holding wood. But I'm not gonna milk this any further. Bunch of the other stuff about barber chair avoidance I do believe to be accurate. But double check with your local skilled craftsman to be sure.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 8, 2006)

smoke said:


> Awhile back someone had a post where they believed that a slanting back-cut, where one side is higher above the face, that the higher side had a greatly holding power than the shorter holding wood.


We've had entire threads on this topic, one juicy one discussing a TCIA article whose image made the cover of the magazine. The author was our own Murphy4trees. It's called the tapered hinge; Many of us use it extensively, both in felling and aerially for accurate directional lopping of limbs.

Here's an image of a barberchair I created last week. This one was deliberate, a wide-open fell, no obstacles, a rope pulling the tree the direction we wanted it to go.

The 'mistake' was the back cut coming in at the level of the face cut, too low. The pulling of the tree is essentially the same as a leaner. When the tree starts to go, the feller stops his cut and bails, stopping short of a complete back cut. If the back cut is at the proper vertical distance above the face cut, and the back cut is not aborted too soon, the barberchair can most often be avoided.

This back cut was too low and didn't go in far enough.


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## wradman (Mar 8, 2006)

*chair*

first things first there is no 2 minute time limit i was just mentioning the app time it takes when you have been doing it for a lot of years to give a perspective of the ease of repitition.

Yes you are right about arborists pulling trees gives the same effect as high winds,there are things you can do to lessen the effects
1- put a little more angle in your undercut ,this means the tree will be farther over before the undercut closes.
2- spend more time training the person pulling on the tree, i've pushed and pulled alot of trees , all you want to do is win the direction of the tree which means once the tree is positively going in the direction you want it to go let the undercut and holding wood do the rest. By forcing it or continuously pulling you are putting exesive stress on the tree and the holding wood.
3 - barberchairs are caused by the undercut closing then the holding wood binds causing the weaker stem wanting to split,when you are on the ground it is always the tree side when you are in the air it can cause the trunk to split pulling the rigger of faller into the tree ,then the trunk will pull you into the tree ouch.
4-there is no difference weather the under cut is higher or lower i find perfect matched cuts work the best but are against the trained practice, we are taught to put the backcut in slightly higher to reduce the risk of the upper portiion hanging up on another tree and sliding backward over top of the stump causing the effect of kick-back.
5-if your are up a tree where there is no escape route take extra time to ensure your undercut is clean, when you do your backcut you can't leave anyhow so leave your saw in the cut, when a tree barberchairs you can tell when it is going to it starts to bind severely(this is where your guy on the ground needs to know not to pull excesively)you have about 1.5 seconds if the tree starts to bind there is time to cut a little more wood. 
If you get to worried about barberchairs the next thing you will do is start cutting to much wood then that is worse yet then you will start cutting to much wood off , so if time permits check your wood on the other side of the tree whenever possible.

sorry hope i wasn't to long winded.


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## smokechase II (Mar 9, 2006)

*Tapered hinge*

Tree Machine:

A tapered hinge is one in which the holding wood is thicker on one side of the tree. This to pull the tree toward that side in the fall. Think two dimensional or square inches.
Take that same or another hinge and focus on either raising it or placing it at a slightly out of kilter angle and we are now in a three dimension discussion. I.e. cubic inches.
I try and cut as level as I can and have basically no experience in the intentionally angled back or face. 
So to clarify; where I stated, "Awhile back someone had a post where they believed that a slanting back-cut, where one side is higher above the face, that the higher side had a greatly holding power than the shorter holding wood."
I was not talking about a tapered hinge. I was talking about the three dimensional thing with an angled cut.

Just as a side bar. I don't believe that for a minute that the higher side is stronger than the lower side of that hinge. It is just less effective in its relationship to the face. 
Example: One places their back-cut a few feet above their face. Ineffective and you are falling without a face. One matches their back-cut exactly with the apex of say an open face and the back-cut is at an optimum placement to work with the face. This is why the Open face technique of smaller faces works on faces that only go in 20-25%.
So every time we move our back-cut up just slightly, we are moving further into a less effective relationship between the back-cut and face.
Why this distinction is important is for those trees where it is necessary to use a fair amount of wedging and also a technique that will help pull the tree to one side. If there is a less than efficient back-cut to face relationship it could make driving those wedges either extremely hard or impossible. So I would suggest on those, utilizing a level tapered hinge to avoid a stumbling block. 
Even though I've never done this unbalanced cut thingy, I can see that it would work. It’s just that I think a tapered hinge (again 2 dimensional) is the cats meow if you got good wood.
Unfortunately, my life has been delegated to dealing with primarily dead
stuff and a tapered hinge has little or no effect in weak wood. So guess what that means.
I should try this angled cut relationship as it probably would work on some of those trees. The ones where there is dried out weaker wood that hasn't rotted.
Hey guys, thanks for talking me into trying this!


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## smokechase II (Mar 9, 2006)

*Spruce for time*

Wradman:
I was being a bit onery on trying to point out in a round a bout way that spruce is a soft softwood that throws great chips and it makes even me look almost like a logger.
You could have said red fir and I'd-a stayed shut up.


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## clearance (Mar 9, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> We've had entire threads on this topic, one juicy one discussing a TCIA article whose image made the cover of the magazine. The author was our own Murphy4trees. It's called the tapered hinge; Many of us use it extensively, both in felling and aerially for accurate directional lopping of limbs.
> 
> This I remember from the thread by Murphy called 6 minute takedown, I refreshed my memory looking on search. Murphy is talking about leaving more holding wood on one side of the backcut than the other, the article is not there but when questioned Murphy said that in the article he explained that it was nothing new. He went on to say that arborists are not fallers nor do they have much of a clue on how to fall trees, properly that is. This post by Treemachine confirms what Murphy said and I firmly believe. If you have to be told about the "tapered hinge" or have it explained to you, then you are
> an amatuer in the truest sense.


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## clearance (Mar 9, 2006)

TreeMachine-Also they explanation you give as to why the tree in the picture "chaired" makes no sense. A pulled tree is not a leaner tree cause it is not leaning the way you want, thats why it is getting pulled, no? Seems to me that this tree was pulled on to hard, no reason for a pulled tree to chair otherwise if the cuts are good and proper. The hieght of the backcut is beside the point, makes no diif. unless it matches the undercut and the tree comes off the stump. The backcut should always be level, same as the undercut and about 1"-2" above the undercut. Not trying to beat up on ya buddy, just cut down a lot of trees, kind of know what works.


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## wradman (Mar 10, 2006)

*reply*

no problem smokey


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## John Ellison (Mar 10, 2006)

I forget if I am agreeing or disagreeing but I dont want my backcut angled in either a vertical or a horizontal plane. Not sure I said that right. 
Because if you need to wedge it is a disadvantge. If I need more holding wood or hinge on one side I would vary it horizontally [tapered hinge] instead of vertically.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 10, 2006)

*three dimensional thing with an angled cut.*

Lots of good info here. And also, please don't view me as trying to step in as the 'expert'. I'm not. I'm not. I just like to get in and stir up the information flow, especially when I've got pictures that help clarify the topic for everyone.

In fact, I'm becoming more clear and smokechase is doing a great job and spending some really dedicated time to make sure we're all on the same page.

Even though the thread is on barberchair and we're getting more into tapered hinge and 2 dimension vs 3 dimension hinging, here's a decent picture, slightly exaggerated, but clearly showing the tapered hinge, and level (front to back) angled (side to side) backcut in all the dimensions, and the result.

The top had been taken out and normally I just block out the firewood chunks, but we had a log arch and needed the firewood at streetside, so decided to drop it and move it out in two lengths. The 30-foot trunk was a slight lean the direction I wanted it to go, non-technical, no obstacles, though the direction of fell was slightly to the left. I was showing a guy the tapered hinge and how to fell the trunk and get it to go slightly to the right.






I set up the tapered hinge so that there was zero holding wood to one side, tapering up vertically. I didn't actually intend to taper back horizontally, but when the tree started to fall, I aborted the cut. that created a 3-dimensional tapered hinge, with a mild barberchair- all the things we're discussing in one image. Had the backcut come in a bit more on the high side, we'd have had a two-dimensional tapered hinge with no barberchair.

And Clearance, on the previous picture you were exactly right. The tree was pulled too hard. I was trying a different face cut with a vertically-oriented plunge to knock out a wide face wedge. I was being too conservative in my back cut (because I had ample pulling power), resulting in a barberchair (see 'previous image' below).

I still don't think we're 100% clear, as the back cut angle can result in a hinge with it's angled dimension, which can be confused (and I read this into Ellison's reply) with the direction of the bar coming in, which can have two dimensions (bar tip up or down creating the tapered hinge, or saw body pivoted on a horizontal plane resulting in the back cut coming in at an upward or downward angle).


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## wradman (Mar 10, 2006)

*studying*



Tree Machine said:


> Lots of good info here. And also, please don't view me as trying to step in as the 'expert'. I'm not. I'm not. I just like to get in and stir up the information flow, especially when I've got pictures that help clarify the topic for everyone.
> 
> In fact, I'm becoming more clear and smokechase is doing a great job and spending some really dedicated time to make sure we're all on the same page.
> 
> ...


i'm not sure that i understand exactly what you guys are trying to accomplish,it could be due to my lack of education.
If you are you trying to make the tree swing around an object you would be just as well learning a dutchman because you are still cutting your holding wood off on one side from what i can see, Boy if i knew how to draw on this computer i could show you guys a few positive things.
There is another way to change the direction i don't know if you have heard of, here goes
say yyou want your tree to fall in the direction of 1 o'clock
-do a nice clean under cut
-pick your undercut wedge off the ground put it by your side
-start your back cut like you are going to make a perfect cut
-when the tree starts to go put your undercut wedge back in the tree on the farside(11 oclock side) into the undercut
-this will cause the wedge to squish into the undercut hole
-while the tree is on it's way over and starts to bind ,cut just a little holding wood out from behind the wooden wedge ,this will cause the tree to veer to the right on the way down.

Do not try this if you are a weekend warrior
It will give you the same result as a dutchman


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## smokechase II (Mar 18, 2006)

*Dutchstep*

Wradman:
What you describe I have heard referred to as a Dutch block, or Dutch rock etc.
Name depends on what hunk of stuff that happens to be nearby that you use.
A simpler way of doing the same is to use a Dutch step.
You're hinge is non symmetric and is shorter on one side (this side closes first - the 11:00 side).
The big caveat to any of these Dutch guys is that any very early closing face technique is a barber chair concern. Since the Dutch step/block is not a full stop like a Dutchman, generally it should not be as high a risk.
Additionally on the Dutch block thingy; if you use a conventional undercut, you do not have to stay near the tree to place the Dutch block. A little more safety spacing from the falling event, although it is a step down for a west coast faller to use other than a Humboldt psychologically.


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## JanThorCro (Apr 8, 2019)

Tree Machine said:


> Only the most skilled can avoid kickback when plunging in with the tip of the bar.



Plunging skillfully is not rocket science. It's a good idea to get instruction and will need practice to become skilled at it, especially when using it to avoid triggering a barber chair on forward leaners. Think of a 30 - 36" stump with about 80 - 100 plunges into it, to really develop the feel for plunging. Tim Ard refers to plunging as "A Basic Technique". If the only time I plunged was on forward leaning trees, my plunging technique would not be dialed in enough for these hazardous felling situations. I love reading your post's. Even if this one guarantees I'll continue to create the best notch apex's I can to AVOID a Dutchman. It's just outta my zip code.


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## bitzer (Apr 8, 2019)

13 year old thread huh? And boring is boring


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## RandyMac (Apr 9, 2019)

'chair 'em for the noise of it


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## HumBurner (Dec 25, 2019)

RandyMac said:


> 'chair 'em for the noise of it




sometimes it's easier to intentionally chair a small tree instead of having to cut it on the ground. not often, but sometimes.


around here, tan oak, madrone, and alder/willow are prone to chair depending on the lean and rot condition. obviously pine.

at a friend/client's cabin i did a coos bay on a really rotten tan oak about 24" dia before the rot got to it. it still chaired at the end. had a feeling it was going to happen and was well prepared, so no worries, but it was still an in-the-moment-surprise.


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## 046 (Dec 25, 2019)




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## ArtB (Dec 25, 2019)

Dija know ya can always put a couple wraps of chain around the trunk above the cut if a-feared of a barber chair.

Merry Christmas.


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## HumBurner (Dec 25, 2019)

046 said:


>




Man, if it hadn't been for the other branches catching that thing, it'dve kicked back at you hard.


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## JanThorCro (Dec 25, 2019)

smokechase II said:


> Tree Machine:
> 
> Example: One places their back-cut a few feet (pretty sure you meant inches) above their face. Ineffective and you are falling without a face. One matches their back-cut exactly with the apex of say an open face and the back-cut is at an optimum placement to work with the face.
> 
> So every time we move our back-cut up just slightly, we are moving further into a less effective relationship between the back-cut and face.



Or could you also say?

As we move our back cut above the apex of our notch, are we just effectively making our hinge wider and putting ourselves in a better position to trigger our beloved Barber Chair?

Please feel free to straighten out my take on this. I cut 95% dead pines, a few dead Cherry, dead or drooping Birches, dead Ash and unfortunately dead Aspens or as we call em Poplars. I also use that bore cut (with a 70 - 90 degree opening) on nearly all my trees and have not had any problems safely felling forward leaning trees.


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## 046 (Dec 25, 2019)

another vote for strapping trunk above cut to prevent a barber chair
instead of chains, I'll use a good quality trucker tie down 2in strap

much safer vs performing correct bore cut, etc for folk who don't cut every day.
don't have any hard numbers but all you are doing is prevent trunk from splitting, NOT holding full force of fall

typical breaking weight for 2in hold down strap aprox 10k lbs .. 
working load is about 1/3 break rating 2in nylon strapped 3-4x rotations, cinched tight is pretty darn secure
chains higher break ratings but a pita to get tight/use

http://www.ratchetstraps.info/load-limits-ratings/


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## ArtB (Dec 26, 2019)

Good suggestion> Strap would also be a lot lighter if you have to carry stuff into the woods any distance.


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## RandyMac (Jan 4, 2020)

straps and chains are for securing loads on trucks


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## ArtB (Jan 4, 2020)

and towing cars, trucks, etc. And pulling stumps and pulling trees over.
And


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## catbuster (Jan 4, 2020)

That chain might give you enough time to get out from under a tree while it’s sliding up the taper, but if the hinge is real big and your back cut is really far above the face the tree will chair, period. That’s why the Humboldt is safer and more effective. Boring and the coos bay (triangle) cut are the best ways to avoid a chair, period. 

Sorry about Randy, he’s usually right but he’s a little grumpy.


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## 046 (Jan 4, 2020)

please note my comments for using straps wrapped 3x+ times around trunk was for folks who don't cut much
don't think that applies to folks cutting 6ft+ DBH trunks


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2020)

ratchet straps, chains, ropes, cables.

All equal more **** that can become projectiles if the tree decides to chair. 

most chains are rated at 7500# WLL, trucker straps 10000 load limit (what they don't tell you is that means its rating is only 3300#), neither is rated for shock load. I've broke both with a 4000# pick up truck, and I will shred them like paper with my skidder.

now couple that with a tree that weighs in around 15000-20000 pounds, limbs, green sap, and needles and leaves attached, that has been standing for 70-90 years, that is a whole lot of stored energy, just waiting to kill someone.

Best off learning to make the proper cuts the reduce and or eliminate the possibility of a chair from happening at all


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## sb47 (Jan 12, 2020)

Try another barber, his chairs may work better.


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## 046 (Jan 19, 2020)

ok .. incoming crap about how bad this video is .. just kidding ... 
video is old as the hills in terms of media put out by BC gov 



this is for you folks giving me crap about using straps for smaller leaners 
don't be fooled by small leaners and how dangerous they can be
it didn't help that there was no escape route on top of not knowing his cuts


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## catbuster (Jan 19, 2020)

The WorksafeBC videos are the best instructive videos on falling trees on the internet. 

I've seen the second video before. The person who got killed was a brush slasher, not a faller. Operator error and bad judgement killed the guy. Nobody is giving you crap about small leaners. Straps are just not something anyone should trust to keep a tree from chairing. Proper technique is what someone should trust. If you know or have learned how to do something, take the time to do it right instead of relying on something that isn't meant to do what it's doing and there's a mediocre chance of helping.


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## rwoods (Jan 19, 2020)

Points well made, Northman and Catbuster. 




ArtB said:


> and towing cars, trucks, etc. And pulling stumps and pulling trees over.
> And
> View attachment 785433



The man in the picture doesn’t look to have gotten the BC memo on the depth of the face cut for heavy leaners - assuming that the tree is one.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2020)

046 said:


> ok .. incoming crap about how bad this video is .. just kidding ...
> video is old as the hills in terms of media put out by BC gov
> 
> 
> ...




Neither of those vids recommended using a strap or a chain. The BC faller vid did illustrate a triangle and T coos bay cut quite nicely though, notice they didn't bore and leave a trigger...
Both of those methods work very well, better then bore and strap/GOL/SSD

the other vid was made after some moron got himself killed doing things he had no business doing, neither the training or the experience to do it safely


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Neither of those vids recommended using a strap or a chain. The BC faller vid did illustrate a triangle and T coos bay cut quite nicely though, notice they didn't bore and leave a trigger...
> Both of those methods work very well, better then bore and strap/GOL/SSD
> 
> the other vid was made after some moron got himself killed doing things he had no business doing, neither the training or the experience to do it safely



don't remember ever claiming it did.
also I never told anyone not to use proper cutting techniques while using strap wrapped 3x-4x
what I suggested was for folks that don't cut much .. straps adds a margin of safety

I never suggested chains .. a royal pita
adding straps on smaller leaners, then proceed with proper cuts.
which is why I posted up a proper training video that didn't use a bore cut and trigger.
reason for second video was to illustrate little leaners can be dangerous and to show proper cut for small leaners.

all the strap has to do to prevent trunk from splitting .. NOT hold up force for entire tree/fall


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2020)

and what you don't seem to understand is that straps are a good way to get killed if it does chair.

providing a false sense of security makes people do dumb ****, namely not making proper cuts, causing a chair


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## catbuster (Jan 20, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> and what you don't seem to understand is that straps are a good way to get killed if it does chair.
> 
> providing a false sense of security makes people do dumb ****, namely not making proper cuts, causing a chair



+1

Straps/chains/whatever are no replacement for doing it the right way. Doing things the right way doesn’t require stuff that makes you feel safe. It just is safe, or at least the safest way to do what it is that you’re doing.


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> and what you don't seem to understand is that straps are a good way to get killed if it does chair.
> 
> providing a false sense of security makes people do dumb ****, namely not making proper cuts, causing a chair



what you don't understand is .. at no time have I stated NOT to make proper cuts. 
that's like me stating .. you said bore cut is the correct cut for all leaners

a quality strap wrapped 3x-4x makes all but impossible for a smaller trunk to split
I don't have exact ft lb energy generated numbers but some folks seems to think force needed to prevent a smaller trunk from splitting is same as force generated by fall. 

what is wrong with adding an extra margin of safety for folks who don't cut much? 
unfortunately .. there's no way to stop stupid


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## rwoods (Jan 20, 2020)

046, not trying to argue just to argue but in my humble firewood hack opinion, folks who don't cut much typically shouldn't be encouraged to cut any tree that one would consider strapping against a barber chair. I believe our logging friends' concern of lack of underlying cutting skills and concern of adding another element of danger (possibly multiplied by inexperience in both falling and strapping technique) are valid points particularly with any tree of substance. Unless it is tight and strong, a strap won't prevent a split. Whether or not it will prevent a chair is a matter of physics. Pretty much depends upon how much of a load will be placed on it. Just the leverage of a tall relatively small diameter stem can place a tremendous load on the strap. Due to the length of the ratchet mechanism and most tail straps, it takes a pretty good size tree to secure tightly with a 10,000# (3,333# WL) strap. 

Ron


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

rwoods said:


> 046, not trying to argue just to argue but in my humble firewood hack opinion, folks who don't cut much typically shouldn't be encouraged to cut any tree that one would consider strapping against a barber chair. I believe our logging friends' concern of lack of underlying cutting skills and concern of adding another element of danger (possibly multiplied by inexperience in both falling and strapping technique) are valid points particularly with any tree of substance. Unless it is tight and strong, a strap won't prevent a split. Whether or not it will prevent a chair is a matter of physics. Pretty much depends upon how much of a load will be placed on it. Just the leverage of a tall relatively small diameter stem can place a tremendous load on the strap. Due to the length of the ratchet mechanism and most tail straps, it takes a pretty good size tree to secure tightly with a 10,000# (3,333# WL) strap.
> 
> Ron



this why I posted up the videos that I did:

1. my guess is the person that got killed got fooled by small size of leaner
2. basics like making sure you got an escape path were ignored
3. there's no accounting for stupid and knowing when to step away

it's not by accident I posted up those videos showing proper cuts that included NO bore cuts with holding wood for trigger.
second video also shows proper cut for small leaners where there's not enough wood for a bore cut.

again .. for smaller leaners there is nothing wrong with using a good strong strap wrapped 3x-4x then proceed with proper cut
one problem is the topic of barber chair can be confusing by nature determining which cut is correct

pretty safe to say forces generated by act of falling are waaaay higher then forces generated at start of a split.
force generated by a splitting trunk is waaaay higher then force need to prevent split from starting.

fyi .. don't worry about hurting my feelings, got pretty thick skin. I've posted up 40k+ posts in last 6 months here:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-left-cant-meme.333232/page-2298

stay safe!


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## catbuster (Jan 20, 2020)

It is *not* safe to say the forces generated by the split are much less than a falling tree.

Force equals mass times acceleration. A split accelerates much faster than 32 ft/second squared. It’s also shock loading that strap or chain, which causes the material in the strap or chain to behave differently, and usually fail. I don’t want to go deep into that, but there’s a reason chains break when shock loaded well below what their safe load is. A chair is also going to shear load a strap at an angle from where it’s at its strongest so the capacity is reduced by whatever the cosine of the angle between the tree and the strap is.

Wood, in engineering, is considered to have an ultimate tensile strength (at total failure) of around ~300 psi along the grain. On a 12” tree with a 1” hinge that tree splitting along the hinge is 3600 lbs of force. You’re already over your strap’s strength, and that’s assuming it’s tight, which isn’t possible on a small tree just because of the ratcheting mechanism. So now your strap goes flying up the tree with the split, and you’re laid out or dead because you relied on a ****ing strap as a false sense of security when handling a tree instead of just taking the time to do it right.

God damn it. Just do it right. If you don’t have the false sense of security then the operator has to do it right and stay on their toes. That in and of itself is a good way to stay alive. If you don’t have the skill then just stay away and hire someone who knows how to do the job.

There’s how this works. If you want to not face that straps and chains don’t work, I guess that’s on you. But you were told otherwise.


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

catbuster said:


> It is *not* safe to say the forces generated by the split are much less than a falling tree.
> 
> Force equals mass times acceleration. A split accelerates much faster than 32 ft/second squared. It’s also shock loading that strap or chain, which causes the material in the strap or chain to behave differently, and usually fail. I don’t want to go deep into that, but there’s a reason chains break when shock loaded well below what their safe load is. A chair is also going to shear load a strap at an angle from where it’s at its strongest so the capacity is reduced by whatever the cosine of the angle between the tree and the strap is.
> 
> ...



sorry but that's just BS ... there is NO way force to prevent start of a split is any close to potential forces generated after a split gets going. same for forces generated during a fall at moment of impact

again .. at NO time have I stated straps are a substitute for making proper cut
when in actual fact .. I've already stated multiple times to strap smaller leaners 3x-4x , then make proper cut


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## catbuster (Jan 20, 2020)

046 said:


> sorry but that's just BS ... there is NO way force to prevent start of a split is any close to potential forces generated after a split gets going. same for forces generated during a fall at moment of impact



It’s not BS. It’s physics. You’re just a ****ing moron who won’t listen to people who know better.


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

catbuster said:


> It’s not BS. It’s physics. You’re just a ****ing moron who won’t listen to people who know better.



what I see is total BS .. you've completely disregarded everything I've actually posted and come up with your own version.
what is wrong with adding an extra margin of safety? 
now instead of attacking the post .. you start name calling ... ha ha ha

stay safe out there!


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## catbuster (Jan 20, 2020)

The only B.S I have in in civil engineering. 

I quantified what you’ve been arguing and proved you wrong. Now you don’t understand, and just call it ********. It’s not. You want to know how much force a tree hits the ground with? Weigh it. W=mg. F=ma. a in that case is gravity, g. So, that 75’ 12” cedar does hit the ground with 8,500 lb force. Which is greater than the force from the split. I’ll yield you that.

But your strap is still broken or up in the tree and you’re hurt or dead. At that point it doesn’t matter.


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

catbuster said:


> The only B.S I have in in civil engineering.
> 
> I quantified what you’ve been arguing and proved you wrong. Now you don’t understand, and just call it ********. It’s not. You want to know how much force a tree hits the ground with? Weigh it. W=mg. F=ma. a in that case is gravity, g. So, that 75’ 12” cedar does hit the ground with 8,500 lb force. Which is greater than the force from the split. I’ll yield you that.
> 
> But your strap is still broken or up in the tree and you’re hurt or dead. At that point it doesn’t matter.



this is why I called BS .. my comments about strength were specifically targeted at force needed to prevent split from starting. 
force generated after split gets going has NOTHING to do with amount of force needed to prevent split from starting. 
your comments are valid once split gets going ... 

this is why I stated from the get go to use a proper rated strap wrapped 3x-4x, cinched down that strap is not moving. 
then I stated to use proper cuts .. I even posted up training videos that showed proper cuts for large and small leaners. 
my motto is .. no actual evidence = BS hence why I posted up videos old as the hill in terms of media by BC gov

yes I did troll a few folks by posting up training videos that doesn't use bore cut at all ... ha ha ha


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2020)

046 said:


> what I see is total BS .. you've completely disregarded everything I've actually posted and come up with your own version.
> what is wrong with adding an extra margin of safety?
> now instead of attacking the post .. you start name calling ... ha ha ha
> 
> stay safe out there!


the only BS here is your own ignorance, several people, arguably with more real world experience have told you that your are in fact wrong.

this is not a matter of opinion, your just wrong and to chicken **** to admit it.


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## catbuster (Jan 20, 2020)

No, you (046) don’t understand anything about materials science or the physics behind it. Barber chairs are caused by reducing the cross sectional area of something under a load. The force causing the split it already there. That strap doesn’t do anything to prevent a split.

Materials yield when they yield. The strap you’re discussing here cannot be held tight enough just by virtue of the mechanism it uses to tighten. It applies no force, or even if it does apply some, by virtue of friction/coefficients of friction, it’s not enough to prevent a split.

If there was required real world evidence for everything, there would be a whole lot of dead people and a lot of buildings would fall down. That’s why people like me have gone to school for at least four years, then have to take an eight hour pre licensure test, work for four years under a licensed engineer, then take a second eight hour licensure test. It’s not easy.


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> the only BS here is your own ignorance, several people, arguably with more real world experience have told you that your are in fact wrong.
> 
> this is not a matter of opinion, your just wrong and to chicken **** to admit it.



well for someone that ignorant ... I sure posted a crap ton of actual evident to support what I stated
you certainly are entitled to your opinion but how's about backing up how I'm wrong ... ha ha ha

so far all I've been seeing is what I didn't post ....


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

catbuster said:


> No, you (046) don’t understand anything about materials science or the physics behind it. Barber chairs are caused by reducing the cross sectional area of something under a load. The force causing the split it already there. That strap doesn’t do anything to prevent a split.
> 
> Materials yield when they yield. The strap you’re discussing here cannot be held tight enough just by virtue of the mechanism it uses to tighten. It applies no force, or even if it does apply some, by virtue of friction/coefficients of friction, it’s not enough to prevent a split.
> 
> If there was required real world evidence for everything, there would be a whole lot of dead people and a lot of buildings would fall down. That’s why people like me have gone to school for at least four years, then have to take an eight hour pre licensure test, work for four years under a licensed engineer, then take a second eight hour licensure test. It’s not easy.



well how's about showing some of that engineering expertise ... ha ha ha 
instead of focusing on what I didn't state ...


----------



## ArtB (Jan 20, 2020)

Sorry I posted that pic with the chain that initiated name calling.

FWIW the photo is from > 20 years ago, the feller was my neighbor, 83 YO at the time, he was a professional logger in the 40's and 50's and felled a few > 8 ft DF in his day that were still left here, he was happy to fell one more relatively large tree. He also was the head of King Co WA parks department in later years.
This was a black cottonwood 20 feet from buildings, so wanted zero risk. 155 ft tall BC, had died, was straight, no lean. It was also guyed from 70 feet up with 2 ea 5/8" wire ropes tied to a couple of 1000 YO DFir stumps for anchors. We parked an old car 130 feet from the tree and hit the car dead center. Think there is an old thread on felling it in the archives.
Was also easier to wrap chain on trunk vs. trying to get chain under the log after felling to drag it with dozer.

Edit PS: memory getting foggy, was only 17 years ago, my first post here!


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

Art .. thanks for being so gracious with your comments. 

I'd been biting my lip for awhile not pointing out tree pic with chain was not much of a leaner. 
what little lean was pointed opposite direction of fall .. 

have not been active for quite sometime ... is Gypo still posting?


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## rwoods (Jan 20, 2020)

046, I have three questions for you - one practical and two you may or may not know the answer - and one possible follow up question. Practical first, how do you wrap, secure and tighten three to four wraps of a strap around a small tree? Next questions: Is strapping a technique taught or approved by BC, any other governing body or recognized organization? Does any company make a purpose-built strap for the use you advocate? If either is “no”, then why not?

Ron


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Jan 20, 2020)

I've had a few ash barber chair before I really knew what I was doing. Haven't had one in quite a while now...but obviously, it can happen to anyone. The last few times i've seen chairs is because people simply leave too much hinge on leaning trees.

Leaning trees that are being felled with the lean simply don't need much hinge. The only time you need a big hinge on a leaner is if you're trying to turn it hard, and even then, the hinge should be thicker on the top side and thin on the bottom.

Leaning trees that I think will chair get super thin hinge. Half or smaller than I would leave on a normal tree. They all get plunged to set the hinge unless there's some really weird situation that doesn't allow a plunge/bore cut. 

Normal trees get 10% hinge, leaning trees being felled with their lean get 5%. Leaning trees just pick up speed so much faster and doesn't give the fibers time to bend/break so a normal size hinge can still chair.


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## 046 (Jan 20, 2020)

rwoods said:


> 046, I have three questions for you - one practical and two you may or may not know the answer - and one possible follow up question. Practical first, how do you wrap, secure and tighten three to four wraps of a strap around a small tree? Next questions: Is strapping a technique taught or approved by BC, any other governing body or recognized organization? Does any company make a purpose-built strap for the use you advocate? If either is “no”, then why not?
> 
> Ron



not to be flipant .. but why don't you do you own research and answer you own questions. 
then post it up for all to see ... there's nothing better than to see someone present a topic backed with actual evidence. 

this topic has been around AS for quite sometime .. look how old this thread is
what's completely predictable was all the incoming crap .. ha ha ha


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## northmanlogging (Jan 21, 2020)

046 said:


> not to be flipant .. but why don't you do you own research and answer you own questions.
> then post it up for all to see ... there's nothing better than to see someone present a topic backed with actual evidence.
> 
> this topic has been around AS for quite sometime .. look how old this thread is
> what's completely predictable was all the incoming crap .. ha ha ha


yup, typical moron response for "I don't know why don't you just give me the answers"

And yet every so often some newb shows up looking for answers, and some armchair lumberhack vomits forth with his "years's of wisdom" so newb goes out in the world tries said dumb ****, gets himself or someone else killed.... then a few years later rinse repeat, hammer the coffin nails home


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## 046 (Jan 21, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> yup, typical moron response for "I don't know why don't you just give me the answers"
> 
> And yet every so often some newb shows up looking for answers, and some armchair lumberhack vomits forth with his "years's of wisdom" so newb goes out in the world tries said dumb ****, gets himself or someone else killed.... then a few years later rinse repeat, hammer the coffin nails home



yet more name calling .. 
why don't cha stick to what I actually stated vs making crap up that I didn't post
so now you are calling training videos put out by BC gov wrong .. ha ha ha


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## ArtB (Jan 21, 2020)

Just might go outback today and see if there are any slight leaners left in my back yard (3 acres)
Will bore cut say a 8"-12" DBH alder WITH THE BAR VERTICAL, then a backcut with no notch.
Will do 3 tight wraps with a cheap 1" wide HF strap (and a few wraps of 3/8 HS chain loose above that fro safety). 

Will be interesting experiment to see if the cheap HF strap breaks. 

Just for added safety, night even position the bucket of my track loader a foot or so from the trunk at 20 ft up to catch it if the strap does break and chain too loose (which I doubt)


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## ArtB (Jan 21, 2020)

Nothing like a test. Raining out here today, in mah old age to lazy to go cut a real treee in the rain, so resort to just break sticks. 
3 wraps of cheap harbor freight electrical tape vs a strap. RH side clamped in a vise to simulate the trunk. Spruce is 3/4" wide, oak about 7/8" wide. Initial bandsaw cut simulates felling cut with NO felling notch for worst case barber chair simulation.
White oak and Engelmann spruce sticks, each cut from same board for consistency (oak is even the opposite ends of the same stick)
Probabaly could do this 50 times and the tape would always prevent barber chair.
Anyone really interested in the physics of forces could do this with sewing thread vs. tape and see how many wraps of thread it would take to prevent barber chair, in this test the electrical tape was only stretched enough to make a snug wrap.


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## 046 (Jan 21, 2020)

Art .. Thank You Sir!


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## rwoods (Jan 21, 2020)

046 said:


> not to be flipant .. but why don't you do you own research and answer you own questions.
> then post it up for all to see ... there's nothing better than to see someone present a topic backed with actual evidence.
> 
> this topic has been around AS for quite sometime .. look how old this thread is
> what's completely predictable was all the incoming crap .. ha ha ha



046,

You are the one proposing this technique. The purposes of my questions to you were twofold: 1) To find out out how you actually apply it; a fairly straight forward question. If you can't or won't demonstrate that then why should anyone take your advice on this subject. 2) To make you think. As long as some folks have been doing this and with the goal of BC and others to prevent deaths and injuries why haven't they endorsed this. And with all the gazillion gadgets and tools marketed to folks who cut trees, then why isn't there a purpose built strapping tool on the market. A pretty safe assumption is - because it is not a safe technique.

As to the experiment made, it only proves the theoretical. I don't believe anyone said it wasn't possible to prevent a barber chair with a strap (a big enough bolt, nut and washers could do the same). The experiment doesn't demonstrate the strength and snuggest required in real world conditions. I am sure an engineer could have calculate the results given the material, the size, etc. together with the composure and location of the strapping; but most of us aren't engineers. All the more reason to ask you to describe how you strap a small diameter tree. And how you decide which trees are suitable and which aren't.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 21, 2020)

ArtB said:


> Nothing like a test. Raining out here today, in mah old age to lazy to go cut a real treee in the rain, so resort to just break sticks.
> 3 wraps of cheap harbor freight electrical tape vs a strap. RH side clamped in a vise to simulate the trunk. Spruce is 3/4" wide, oak about 7/8" wide. Initial bandsaw cut simulates felling cut with NO felling notch for worst case barber chair simulation.
> White oak and Engelmann spruce sticks, each cut from same board for consistency (oak is even the opposite ends of the same stick)
> Probabaly could do this 50 times and the tape would always prevent barber chair.
> ...


alright now restrain the other side with a stump and try it again.

what you don't seem to understand is that I have personally seen this fail, with real trees in real life.

I'll leave it at that, getting someone killed is on you bud


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## ArtB (Jan 21, 2020)

For education, care to add any details on the personally seen fail ? Species, diameter, where backcut was, how much of a leaner, what type wrap broke?

FWIW2, only ever had one tree ( out of thousands) barber chair, 20 deg lean, bigleaf maple, about 15 inch diameter. Was well clear by the time it split and fell.
Have only ever chain wrapped 3 trees, all big black cottonwood. Not something worth doing 99.9% of time unless going to have to chain it up afterwards anyway to drag the log. 
FWIW3, the test simulated a stump by having the RH portion in the pics clamped in a big vise.


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## Bwildered (Jan 21, 2020)

catbuster said:


> The only B.S I have in in civil engineering.
> 
> I quantified what you’ve been arguing and proved you wrong. Now you don’t understand, and just call it ********. It’s not. You want to know how much force a tree hits the ground with? Weigh it. W=mg. F=ma. a in that case is gravity, g. So, that 75’ 12” cedar does hit the ground with 8,500 lb force. Which is greater than the force from the split. I’ll yield you that.
> 
> But your strap is still broken or up in the tree and you’re hurt or dead. At that point it doesn’t matter.



Now all you have to do is give us a simple diagram showing how the forces are transmitted to a strap at the butt of the log & overcoming the breaking resistance of it being 4 X its rated strength by being wrapped around the log, you are confusing the mechanics of holding the split together away from the fulcrum, the fulcrum being a point many meters up the tree. now if the split was reversed coming from the other end up the tree then force X Distance puts immense load on the strap, but that can't happen because a barber chair split doesn't happen that way.
While your at it you could give us a diagram showing how falling against the lean of gravity is possible too.


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## Bwildered (Jan 21, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> alright now restrain the other side with a stump and try it again.
> 
> what you don't seem to understand is that I have personally seen this fail, with real trees in real life.
> 
> I'll leave it at that, getting someone killed is on you bud


It's the same thing , just in a smaller scale, the RH side of the cut is the stump.
Tell us what you have personally seen & the details of it?


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## catbuster (Jan 21, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> Now all you have to do is give us a simple diagram showing how the forces are transmitted to a strap at the butt of the log & overcoming the breaking resistance of it being 4 X its rated strength by being wrapped around the log, you are confusing the mechanics of holding the split together away from the fulcrum, now if the split was reversed coming from the other end of the log then force X Distance puts immense load on the strap, but that can't happen because a barber chair split doesn't happen that way.
> While your at it you could give us a diagram showing how falling against the lean of gravity is possible too.



I’ll get that up tomorrow... It’s too late to get out my stuff and draw it. That’s no joke, but I really think people here are confusing the failure plane and the direction the split causes force on the retaining tool, be it tape, a strap, a chain, whatever. But I’m assuming the split direction is perpendicular to the trunk, which is then perpendicular to the wide side of the strap. After the beginning the split is then at an angle to the remainder of the trunk.

Immediately after a split begins there is no moment caused by the split. Force in this case is equal to sigma times area. There’s where the 300 psi over whatever area gets the force. As it moves up a trunk, that moment increases and the reaction at the strap would increase if it were fastened where it could not move. I

I don’t get where you’re seeing me arguing a tree falls against the lean. But mass times gravitational acceleration is the same on the ground as it is in the air. The potential energy is different, but at the very small angle a tree has as it hits the ground a safe assumption is the cosine of the angle is one. That’s how you get the weight being equal to the force exerted on landing.

That’s assuming your restraining tool could be fastened tightly enough to not go flying when a barber chair occurs. Which isn’t possible by virtue of a chain binder or ratcheting mechanism on a ratchet strap not being able to follow the curvature of a tree’s trunk. That is my biggest problem with the test above. It’s not possible to strap or chain a tree that tightly in the real world. I hate to give any ground and argue against my fellow talented faller, but restraining both ends won’t change anything about those breaks.

And yes, extra wraps do increase capacity if they’re stacked on top of each other. So in our scenario at the point of failure with no moment, we get 12,000 lb or thereabouts. As an academic argument, okay, maybe. But it’s getting shock loaded as the strap can’t be tight enough to prevent all movement of the tree in the real world so the game is a little different and the peak amplitude goes way up even if it’s for a short duration.


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## 046 (Jan 21, 2020)

strapped barber chair in action  (www.youtube.com)


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## Bwildered (Jan 21, 2020)

catbuster said:


> I’ll get that up tomorrow... It’s too late to get out my stuff and draw it. That’s no joke, but I really think people here are confusing the failure plane and the direction the split causes force on the retaining tool, be it tape, a strap, a chain, whatever. But I’m assuming the split direction is perpendicular to the trunk, which is then perpendicular to the wide side of the strap. After the beginning the split is then at an angle to the remainder of the trunk.
> 
> Immediately after a split begins there is no moment caused by the split. Force in this case is equal to sigma times area. There’s where the 300 psi over whatever area gets the force. As it moves up a trunk, that moment increases and the reaction at the strap would increase if it were fastened where it could not move. I
> 
> ...


The same shock forces are in action whether the tree is strapped or not, if the forces at the butt of the tree were so immense, every tree would fly apart on falling and hitting the ground, trees that naturally barber chair are weak in the longitudinal plane, so easily split, if a split can be stopped from propagating as shown in the model demontration then the force of the binding doesn't have to be great, & once separated from the stump the butt of the tree would behave like any other tree & not fly to pieces.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2020)

12" alder, 20 deg lean, climbing rope multiple wraps

36" cotton wood chain and binder

2" ratchet strap, 24" fir, hollow, not much lean

the alder cut the rope, the cotton wood stretched the chain to failure, fir tore the strap


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## Bwildered (Jan 22, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> 12" alder, 20 deg lean, climbing rope multiple wraps
> 
> 36" cotton wood chain and binder
> 
> ...



So in each case the wrapping failed to stop the barber chair before the tree came off the stump?


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## ArtB (Jan 22, 2020)

catbuster said:


> I’ll get that up tomorrow... .



Will be interesting to see an analysis. To be accurate an analysis would need to be dynamic vs. just static forces with modulus of elasticity included in the equations and behavior in the yield region vs. using a simple break at yield.


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2020)

Bw, good to see the fires haven't run you over. I was thinking of you when I first posted on strapping here and the irony of our long running discussion of falling completely opposite the lean where I was arguing incremental falling in theory much like 046 asserting the theoretical here. Despite our failure to agree on incremental falling, I believe you understood my belief that in the real world falling completely opposite the lean rarely, if ever, intentionally happens when the actual load is with the perceived lean.

You seem to be safety conscious and knowledgeable of the forestry industry downunder, so let me ask. Do any of your regulators or trade associations approve of strapping to prevent barber chairs on small trees? Is this technique something you do, or recommend to inexperience cutters?

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2020)

046 said:


> strapped barber chair in action  (www.youtube.com)


 Bad link or a joke ????
*RickRoll'D*

Ron


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## 046 (Jan 22, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Bad link or a joke ????
> *RickRoll'D*
> 
> Ron



what do ya think ... ha ha ha


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2020)

046 said:


> what do ya think ... ha ha ha



I think I am done. You won’t take time to answer a simple question about a questionable technique you advocate as a safety measure for those who don’t cut much but instead take time to joke. Should we take it all as a joke?

Ron


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## 046 (Jan 22, 2020)

rwoods said:


> I think I am done. You won’t take time to answer a simple question about a questionable technique you advocate as a safety measure for those who don’t cut much but instead take time to joke. Should we take it all as a joke?
> 
> Ron




good .. 

let's see I specifically state to use a rated strap. I even posted up the exact model with ratings, etc. 
I state to wrap 3x-4x on smaller trunks cinched tight. then make the proper cut for leaners. 
then I posted two training video for leaners by BC gov so there is NO question what's the proper cut

I get a load of crap about how dangerous above instructions are. 
further at no time have I stated to use chain which can slip and fail. 
yet I get accused of recommending use of a chain. 

at NO time have I told anyone not to use the proper cut for leaners. 
the strap is there purely as an extra safety precaution. 

do I really need to add 36in trunks are not small and likely exceed ratings of most common straps
again .. there's no accounting for stupid 
know when to walk away .. stay safe!


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## Bwildered (Jan 22, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Bw, good to see the fires haven't run you over. I was thinking of you when I first posted on strapping here and the irony of our long running discussion of falling completely opposite the lean where I was arguing incremental falling in theory much like 046 asserting the theoretical here. Despite our failure to agree on incremental falling, I believe you understood my belief that in the real world falling completely opposite the lean rarely, if ever, intentionally happens when the actual load is with the perceived lean.
> 
> You seem to be safety conscious and knowledgeable of the forestry industry downunder, so let me ask. Do any of your regulators or trade associations approve of strapping to prevent barber chairs on small trees? Is this technique something you do, or recommend to inexperience cutters?
> 
> Ron



Here Strapping is something which is outside the bounds of normal felling practice, but for smaller trees that can't be bored I couldn't see a problem with it, 1/2" rope would be my preference wrapped a dozen times , light to carry & if it does fail won't fly through the air & cause any harm, a barber chair is a release of energy in the wrong direction, one would think restraining that release of energy in the wrong direction has to be safer,


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## ArtB (Jan 22, 2020)

Just to stir the pot, and throw in some numbers, related to #71 chain calculations.
Derivation of the following is left to the student <G>

Strength of wrap required = 50#cuft*(tree height/2)*(DBH^2*pi/4)*sine (lean angle)

For the tree in post 71, that works out to about 30,000# breaking strength of strap.
Hence, in #71, 2 wraps of grade 70 3/8 chain = 50,000 # BREAKING strength. note 3/8 grade 70 rating is 6700#, breaking about 4x rating.

Numbers in above assumed a 30 degree lean and NO notch for worst case.

I'm guessing the previous post with a 36" DBH leaner breaking a chain probable used a more wimpy chain, that post did not define the chain that broke.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2020)

ArtB said:


> Just to stir the pot, and throw in some numbers, related to #71 chain calculations.
> Derivation of the following is left to the student <G>
> 
> Strength of wrap required = 50#cuft*(tree height/2)*(DBH^2*pi/4)*sine (lean angle)
> ...


5/16"s bargain store chain... unrated, and junk... it was left next to the stump to rust in peace


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2020)

046 said:


> good ..
> 
> let's see I specifically state to use a rated strap. I even posted up the exact model with ratings, etc.
> I state to wrap 3x-4x on smaller trunks cinched tight. then make the proper cut for leaners.
> ...



046,

I am not trying to give you grief for the fun of it. I would not waste your time or mine doing that much less disrespect you in that manner. I post because most folks who don’t cut much don’t know how to make proper cuts. I won’t claim that I know or do. I also don’t know how you secure the strap you described to a small tree. The ones sold here have either a j hook or a clip. Due to the length of the tail and the ratchet mechanism, you have to have multiple wraps so you must spread the strap out (which creates slack if the wraps are moved). Add to the mix that the ratchet mechanism won’t lay flat due to its length and the potential for slack worsens. Add to that how you connect the ends and the potential grows some more. To some extent the same spreading is unavoidable on a large tree even where you can almost completely layer the strap on itself. The only way to avoid the built-in slack is a single wrap, a ratchet mechanism that lies flat against the tree for its entire length and a knotless connection. This is not just theoretical. These are real world facts.

To advocate to a person who doesn’t cut much to strap a small tree to prevent a barber chair is just reckless in my opinion particularly when the technique is not recognized by folks whose job is to help keep us safe. The recklessness is compounded when no meaningful instruction or guidance is provided - a recipe for someone to get hurt or killed.

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> Here Strapping is something which is outside the bounds of normal felling practice, but for smaller trees that can't be bored I couldn't see a problem with it, 1/2" rope would be my preference wrapped a dozen times , light to carry & if it does fail won't fly through the air & cause any harm, a barber chair is a release of energy in the wrong direction, one would think restraining that release of energy in the wrong direction has to be safer,



Sorta like wrapping the end of an axe handle. No harm no foul unless you were counting on it to work and it doesn’t. In other words, no added risk if it doesn’t work other than misplaced trust. It is that last part that has my attention since this strap technique was directed to those who don’t cut much. Being the consummate igmo that I am, in years past I have actually strapped a tree or two when cutting for lumber and found tightening to be problematic. Also my mind raced with how much stress will be created, can this thing handle it and if it doesn't how do I keep it from flying off or around and hitting me. Never used or considered it to be a safety measure. Never tried it on any under 24” thus my questions to 046 on just how he secures a small tree.

Thanks for giving your perspective.

Ron


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## 046 (Jan 22, 2020)

rwoods said:


> 046,
> 
> I am not trying to give you grief for the fun of it. I would not waste your time or mine doing that much less disrespect you in that manner. I post because most folks who don’t cut much don’t know how to make proper cuts. I won’t claim that I know or do. I also don’t know how you secure the strap you described to a small tree. The ones sold here have either a j hook or a clip. Due to the length of the tail and the ratchet mechanism, you have to have multiple wraps so you must spread the strap out (which creates slack if the wraps are moved). Add to the mix that the ratchet mechanism won’t lay flat due to its length and the potential for slack worsens. Add to that how you connect the ends and the potential grows some more. To some extent the same spreading is unavoidable on a large tree even where you can almost completely layer the strap on itself. The only way to avoid the built-in slack is a single wrap, a ratchet mechanism that lies flat against the tree for its entire length and a knotless connection. This is not just theoretical. These are real world facts.
> 
> ...



not trying to give you grief ... but if someone after reading all my detailed posts and watching training videos .. cannot figure it out. they probably don't need to be cutting leaners at all and need to walk away. 

again .. there's no accounting for stupid .. know when to walk away 
be safe!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Sorta like wrapping the end of an axe handle. No harm no foul unless you were counting on it to work and it doesn’t. In other words, no added risk if it doesn’t work other than misplaced trust. It is that last part that has my attention since this strap technique was directed to those who don’t cut much. Being the consummate igmo that I am, in years past I have actually strapped a tree or two when cutting for lumber and found tightening to be problematic. Also my mind raced with how much stress will be created, can this thing handle it and if it doesn't how do I keep it from flying off or around and hitting me. Never used or considered it to be a safety measure. Never tried it on any under 24” thus my questions to 046 on just how he secures a small tree.
> 
> Thanks for giving your perspective.
> 
> Ron


see, I felt the same way looking at a chain while making a back cut, thinking, that breaks, I die...

Then I watch one split and stretch the chain, it didn't break completely, but it was enough, haven't done it since

the rope, and ratchet strap where both done by other people, I hid and watched


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## rwoods (Jan 23, 2020)

046, I think we all agree that unless you know proper cuts and can make them for leaners or other barber chair candidates, you don't need to be cutting them without an instructor standing by. The BC videos you posted were the best demonstration of the two principal methods that I have seen. I have used the "T" cut only a few times and, of course, I don't cut the species or height of trees addressed, but when I use a "T" I try to leave a hinge that is uniform unless I am trying to turn the tree. As illustrated by BC, a thicker nub was created on the right outside - presumably this makes a negligible difference on the falling direction of a typical big thick bark West Coast tree - I don't know.

As you said, be safe!

Ron


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## Bwildered (Jan 24, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Sorta like wrapping the end of an axe handle. No harm no foul unless you were counting on it to work and it doesn’t. In other words, no added risk if it doesn’t work other than misplaced trust. It is that last part that has my attention since this strap technique was directed to those who don’t cut much. Being the consummate igmo that I am, in years past I have actually strapped a tree or two when cutting for lumber and found tightening to be problematic. Also my mind raced with how much stress will be created, can this thing handle it and if it doesn't how do I keep it from flying off or around and hitting me. Never used or considered it to be a safety measure. Never tried it on any under 24” thus my questions to 046 on just how he secures a small tree.
> 
> Thanks for giving your perspective.
> 
> Ron


I've got a split axe handle that's been held together for years with duct tape, just lately I broke the handle off where it goes into the head, rasped it to fit again & resined the head back on, maybe I'll get another couple of more years out of it.


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## rwoods (Jan 24, 2020)

I have trouble with loose handles on an axe and a hatchet. Don't really want to soak them as they will just dry out again. Thinking of drilling and pinning my axe. What sort of resin do you use?

Ron


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## Bwildered (Jan 24, 2020)

rwoods said:


> I have trouble with loose handles on an axe and a hatchet. Don't really want to soak them as they will just dry out again. Thinking of drilling and pinning my axe. What sort of resin do you use?
> 
> Ron


I just used polyester resin, I hope it won't be too brittle, I'm only using it because I've shortened the handle & there was big gaps to fill, normally I'll use a wedge that's been over dried in a microwave oven , they never move.


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## rwoods (Jan 24, 2020)

Serious question, Bw - how long do you nuke the wedge? The hatchet is factory and I have given up beating the wood wedge tight. I have driven the small metal wedges deep beyond the surface - still doesn’t last.

The axe I hung. Tight but it slowly works the head forward so you have to watch it carefully. My little Husky axe uses a round metal pipe like piece driven into the wedge and handle. So far it has remained snug.

Ron


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## ArtB (Jan 24, 2020)

rwoods said:


> What sort of resin do you use?
> 
> Ron



I use the epoxy used for setting rebar into drilled holes in concrete, has worked well for me. Decades ago tried boat resin (polyester) but that cracked to easily and heads came loose.
I drive the wood wedge into wet epoxy. Add metal wedge AFTER epoxy has cured. 
Have done perhaps 20 axes, a few pitchforks/rakes/shovels, etc. like that, non have ever come loose.


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## rwoods (Jan 24, 2020)

ArtB said:


> I use the epoxy used for setting rebar into drilled holes in concrete, has worked well for me. Decades ago tried boat resin (polyester) but that cracked to easily and heads came loose.
> I drive the wood wedge into wet epoxy. Add metal wedge AFTER epoxy has cured.
> Have done perhaps 20 axes, a few pitchforks/rakes/shovels, etc. like that, non have ever come loose.



Will have to give it a try. Thanks, Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 25, 2020)

while we're at it, I've never used glue or epoxy on an axe head, never had a problem either, keep the wood dry both the wedge and the handle before assembly, fit it snug to begin with, carefully tap in the wedge, then cross it up with a steel wedge or 2, most reputable hardware stores sell the little steel wedges, right next to the handles... or reuse the old one if you can find it. 


well thats not entirely true, the step drunk had me put a fiberglass handle in one when I was a kid, it failed but from abuse more than anything (the step drunk was illiterate... and my brothers aren't much better... so it came down to the kid what could read directions)


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## Bwildered (Jan 25, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Serious question, Bw - how long do you nuke the wedge? The hatchet is factory and I have given up beating the wood wedge tight. I have driven the small metal wedges deep beyond the surface - still doesn’t last.
> 
> The axe I hung. Tight but it slowly works the head forward so you have to watch it carefully. My little Husky axe uses a round metal pipe like piece driven into the wedge and handle. So far it has remained snug.
> 
> Ron


I’ll cook it on low setting until I can smell it starting to burn & it’s easy to set one on fire, I have an old microwave in my workshop for testing KD samples that come out of my kiln.
Crap axe heads that don’t have the correct internal flair to the wedge end will never hold a handle with just a wedge


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## rwoods (Jan 25, 2020)

The axe is an old rafting pattern 5# Plumb so the head shouldn't be a problem. As I said I hung it so that pretty much narrows the fault down. The hatchet is a 40 year old Collins that I keep close to the wood stove. I'm sure the proximity to the stove doesn't help. Both have the little metal wedges. I will probably try the epoxy Art suggested.

Ron


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## madhatte (Jan 26, 2020)

If a handle comes loose, I always pull the whole thing apart and re-handle it, even if I might re-use the same wood. If it doesn't fit any more due to shrinkage, it's not a lot of work to make it fit again.


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## rwoods (Jan 26, 2020)

madhatte said:


> If a handle comes loose, I always pull the whole thing apart and re-handle it, even if I might re-use the same wood. If it doesn't fit any more due to shrinkage, it's not a lot of work to make it fit again.



That is what I expect to do. I was only planning to use the epoxy on the wedge. I would hazard to guess that in wet climates drying out is less of a problem. Ron


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## ArtB (Jan 26, 2020)

rwoods said:


> I was only planning to use the epoxy on the wedge



I put the ax head in a vise with the handle vertical, have handle eye portin covered in epoxy, then inset into ax eye from the; bottom. If wood not a good seal, smear some clay to close any gaps, Then fully fill any space between head and handle, including the wood wedge notch. 
Drive in wood wedge, let cure. Remove slop, file or grind part of handle that extends past head, add metal wedge (typ 1" by 3/4" size wedge.).


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## rwoods (Jan 27, 2020)

Thanks, ArtB. I thought you just did the wedge.

How do I remove the epoxy from the head when I break the handle?

Ron


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## madhatte (Jan 27, 2020)

rwoods said:


> How do I remove the epoxy from the head when I break the handle?



Drill and swedge are both your friends here. I've made swedges for most common axe eye sizes.


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## ArtB (Jan 27, 2020)

rwoods said:


> Thanks, ArtB. I thought you just did the wedge.
> 
> How do I remove the epoxy from the head when I break the handle?
> 
> Ron


I chuck ax head in drill press vice, drill 2 ea 5/8" hole, drive old handle pieces out. Have never seen the epoxy bond so firmly to the head that epoxy canot be chipped out.

Judicious use of propane torch work also once biggest pieces drilled/driven out.


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## rwoods (Jan 27, 2020)

I would guess with the non-shrinking rebar / concrete epoxy that it would work good to fill any irregularities in the wood to metal fit. Ron


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## rwoods (Feb 8, 2020)

Before I could try the rebar epoxy, I splintered my axe handle pounding wedges today trying to turn an Ash. May get to try it on a new handle if I can't get it to fit to my satisfaction. Sorting through the handle bin at the COOP for a straight and nice grained handle is not my favorite lunch break activity. Usually never happy with the result. But you got to do what you got to do. 
Ron


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (Feb 27, 2020)

I have never seen a softwood split in Ireland. Our softwood is very soft, spruce trees can reach 80 feet height and 3'+ diameter in 30 years. I once cut a 70 foot spruce tree that was bent right over. The top had almost come back down to the ground. This particular tree was about 10 inches on the stump. I cut it with conventional undercut and straight back cut. It didnt split but I could see where it had tried when I got a look at the butt. If my chain had been dull it might have split.

A small willow tree in the same situation barber chaired on my last week. It was too small to bore and my chain was somewhat dull.


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## Brownthumb (Feb 27, 2020)

My barber is like 3 min away.
When she puts me in the chair i pray she don’t smother me to death with them jugs.
Dang she is butt ugly too.
Charges like 2x more also, Butt she is 3 min away.


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## TheDarkLordChinChin (Feb 28, 2020)

If you sit in the barber chair you're gonna get a hair cut!


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## Woody912 (Mar 2, 2020)

PWB said:


> Had a cherry with a 30-40 degree lean , maybe 15" diameter split about 30 feet last winter. Left wood standing about 10 feet up, did NOT get hung up in the air.
> 
> Was a GOOD reminder to be careful. Knew the tree was dangerous, had lots of room to run, etc.
> 
> Good thing it was destined for firewood, saved a lot of work............................ :bang:



I have literally yanked the heck out 100's of cherries (fencerow with back lean) chained to a pickup and never had one split, every one of them should have! Due to deep snow and limited egress I did not want to be near them so we pulled them over after making cuts. Sometimes had to go back and make more cuts. Every tree has it's own rules I think


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