# Any one ride the pick down?



## beastmaster (Jan 13, 2013)

I have this job coming up to remove these dead hazardous Euc's. Today we removed one that fell over. It had no roots at all. Its a safe bet none of the other ones do either. The bases are full of conks and their toasty dead. There is a big Koi pond behind them(biggest I've ever seen)and in front a block wall fence. The biggest one is maybe 75 feet with back lean and most the weight towards the koi pond. 
No way I'd climb these. The Company I'm doing this for has a KB crane, and we talking about getting a bigger crane to come in. I don't want to be in those trees tied in. I want to just hang from the KB crane and piece them out. The other option is to cut a piece and ride down with it. I've never done this before and not sure how to go about it. Do you wait for the piece to be lifted than go with it after its off? Any one ever do this and could give me some pointers I'd appreciated it. 
These trees are ready to fall over. If they weren't so dead I could maybe free fall them, but I'm sure any pulling on them could cause them to break off and fall any which way. I feel comfortable doing them while hanging from the crane and just chucking them down, Can't say for sure they wouldn't pull a part it lifted. Have to play that by ear. But I am interested in how to ride a piece down. I don't want to use two cranes in case the tree did fall over a boom might get hit(the KB is only 70 feet and would have to be pretty close.)
Thanks for any input.

View attachment 273167
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Some logs from the one that fell over two dayView attachment 273171


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## adronetree (Jan 13, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> I have this job coming up to remove these dead hazardous Euc's. Today we removed one that fell over. It had no roots at all. Its a safe bet none of the other ones do either. The bases are full of conks and their toasty dead. There is a big Koi pond behind them(biggest I've ever seen)and in front a block wall fence. The biggest one is maybe 75 feet with back lean and most the weight towards the koi pond.
> No way I'd climb these. The Company I'm doing this for has a KB crane, and we talking about getting a bigger crane to come in. I don't want to be in those trees tied in. I want to just hang from the KB crane and piece them out. The other option is to cut a piece and ride down with it. I've never done this before and not sure how to go about it. Do you wait for the piece to be lifted than go with it after its off? Any one ever do this and could give me some pointers I'd appreciated it.
> These trees are ready to fall over. If they weren't so dead I could maybe free fall them, but I'm sure any pulling on them could cause them to break off and fall any which way. I feel comfortable doing them while hanging from the crane and just chucking them down, Can't say for sure they wouldn't pull a part it lifted. Have to play that by ear. But I am interested in how to ride a piece down. I don't want to use two cranes in case the tree did fall over a boom might get hit(the KB is only 70 feet and would have to be pretty close.)
> Thanks for any input.
> ...


Sounds like you'd be better off riding the ball and chunking it down. I would avoid riding the pick down. It could work but generally not a good idea. Alot of things could happen even though they probably wouldn't. Sling could move, piece could flip, etc. etc. Bad positioning and bad tie in choices as well.
Can the company not borrow or rent a bucket or spider???? Whether you ride the ball or ride the piece god help you if OSHA happens to finally pull up on that one job.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 13, 2013)

Looks like you need two cranes. One for you in a man basket, one for the pieces you rig down.

Seriously. It's the owner's fault for waiting so long, now the equipment cost is double what it would have been a few years earlier.

Alternative: the owner can wait for them to fall down and then make an insurance claim. I have talked to insurance adjusters on site, and they will not pay for hazard tree removal unless it is touching the home I suppose in this case, they might make an exception. Get the insurance adjuster there.

There is a guy in New Jersey (Mark Chisholm) who specializes in crane work; he gave a demo at an ISA conference in Tacoma, WA a few years ago. He said that for very dead or broken trees, that is what he has occasionally done -- two cranes. Here is something I found a job he did, removing a double tulip poplar that was 140 ft and burned partway through from a lightning strike. They actually used THREE cranes: one to lift off the crown, the second to hang him in the air to work, and a third smaller crane to take down the lower trunk once the tree could be climbed.

oops -- can't seem to paste in the web address here. 

Just Google: Princeton tulip tree crane

that should do it; fourth hit down the list


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## dbl612 (Jan 13, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Looks like you need two cranes. One for you in a man basket, one for the pieces you rig down.
> 
> Seriously. It's the owner's fault for waiting so long, now the equipment cost is double what it would have been a few years earlier.
> 
> ...


we have worked with a couple of climbers experienced with crane removals doing trees as you have described. their procedure was to tie off above the ball, crane would hoist climber to pick point, he would set choker, rappel down to a conservative cut point, make the cut, crane holds load in position till climber descends to ground and is out of way, then crane moves load to landing zone. repeat as required for full removal. crane, rigging, climber's gear all rated, conservative weight cuts and load control essential. have also had climber stay with load till both could be moved to a safe lz for climber to descend (climbing line stays in rope bag with him till he descends). after climber descends, crane lands cut piece.


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## ft. churchill (Jan 13, 2013)

I've got to chime in here. First off I have no arborist experience other than a few removals for friends and the widow at church. I feel outta place tellin' ya anything. My experience is is heavy construction and ironworking. You are never allowed to ride the load or the ball. The only place you can ride would be in a manbasket, while tied off. These sorts of rules are what I learned back in the '70's and are probably stricter now. Here are the reasons why..... OSHA and MSHA would shut you down and fine you, and the real reason is that when the crane cable is lifted the ball or the cable can spin as it accepts the load, throwing the rider off, or entangling him in the cable. That ridin' the load or ball stuff happened back in the early thirties and in Popeye cartoons from the same era. 
Those eucalyptus are dicey at best. Be safe out there.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 13, 2013)

yuppppppp. Trees are a whole new set of rules though .


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 13, 2013)

Beast, I've done what you're thinking a few times in dicey trees. Sometimes it's the only safe option. I keep my climbline above the ball and don't lanyard into the tree for obvious reasons. Cut at your hip ( below your friction hitch ) in case you were to catch your line. Positioning is difficult but an experienced hand like yours will do just fine. Once the piece is cut and the crane has the load, drop down so you're beneath the work, if you can descend safely to the ground, do so, if not, ride with the piece to a safe landing zone. Watch for dead stuff coming at your head and take care to balance the piece correctly so it doesn't flip. As dbl said, conservative pieces. 

If an Osha inspector stops, cross your fingers that he's not a prick and it's a good idea to have a documented job plan detailing how and WHY you are doing it the way you are. Keep a copy of ansi regs handy as well.


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## dbl612 (Jan 13, 2013)

ft. churchill said:


> I've got to chime in here. First off I have no arborist experience other than a few removals for friends and the widow at church. I feel outta place tellin' ya anything. My experience is is heavy construction and ironworking. You are never allowed to ride the load or the ball. The only place you can ride would be in a manbasket, while tied off. These sorts of rules are what I learned back in the '70's and are probably stricter now. Here are the reasons why..... OSHA and MSHA would shut you down and fine you, and the real reason is that when the crane cable is lifted the ball or the cable can spin as it accepts the load, throwing the rider off, or entangling him in the cable. That ridin' the load or ball stuff happened back in the early thirties and in Popeye cartoons from the same era.
> Those eucalyptus are dicey at best. Be safe out there.



you are correct in what you have said. however ansi has set the rules for tree work, which has been covered at length in this forum. treework does not equate to ironworking and construction. thank you.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 13, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> you are correct in what you have said. however ansi has set the rules for tree work, which has been covered at length in this forum. treework does not equate to ironworking and construction. thank you.



The only reason it doesn't is because most guys don't ever get seen or caught doing that #### , ie. , if tree work was scrutinized like ironwork or other more metropoltian kinda crane work , I guarantee you would not be anywhere near the hook , Becket , ball any of it with a rope , maybe , just maybe you could work off the boom . But I doubt that too . Your option would be work from the tree or a high reach


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## dbl612 (Jan 13, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> The only reason it doesn't is because most guys don't ever get seen or caught doing that #### , ie. , if tree work was scrutinized like ironwork or other more metropoltian kinda crane work , I guarantee you would not be anywhere near the hook , Becket , ball any of it with a rope , maybe , just maybe you could work off the boom . But I doubt that too . Your option would be work from the tree or a high reach



i'm sure given the option, 99 out of 100 crane ops would chose hanging iron over tree work. know weights, generally lifted from ground, known load dynamics, and generally working with people that work with a crane every day of the week, instead of infrequent use of cranes that causes learning curve activity for all involved (=unforseen problems). hanging iron=hoist the piece into place, bolt it up, cut the crane loose, pick another etc. etc. etc.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 13, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> i'm sure given the option, 99 out of 100 crane ops would chose hanging iron over tree work. know weights, generally lifted from ground, known load dynamics, and generally working with people that work with a crane every day of the week, instead of infrequent use of cranes that causes learning curve activity for all involved (=unforseen problems). hanging iron=hoist the piece into place, bolt it up, cut the crane loose, pick another etc. etc. etc.


It's a production kinda game , you have a piece count that a normal 2 connectors , 2 hooks a oiler and operator and the foreman , and sometimes a signalmen pretty crazy though , we did the eagles stadium and our piece count was like 150 pieces a day , granted it was all light columns and beams doing people walks but we hustled and I never went home feeling like I didn't get my ass kicked LOL


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 13, 2013)

We jumped on the ball once and got dipped in the Delaware river , we all got our money , including the operator , that was the last time I ever rode the crane , after that it seemed like times changed over night . My father in law who still works says that in his day , after lunch the entire gang would ride the load , meaning a beam or a column back to work! If that happened today I think they would shut the whole job down .alot of guys don't know this but OSHA can't just walk on your job , they have to be invited ! I mean they were instituted to make regulations for the safety of the worker , not to make there life harder but safer .


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 13, 2013)

Anyway, I would go with a KB for a TIP.
Jeff


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## Toddppm (Jan 13, 2013)

TCI Magazine November 2012 Just read about riding the pick here. He's got a presentation too so the whole thing with more info is probably online somewhere.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jan 13, 2013)

We use a crane just about daily and fly to set chokers. I have roped taller trees through natty crotches and then set the choker on the piece from the bucket so we can crane it down to the chipper. I have not nor am I allowed to ride down the load. Dead chit is da wurst! Duck and cover! Stay safe and good luck Beast!


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## justa buzzid (Jan 16, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Looks like you need two cranes. One for you in a man basket, one for the pieces you rig down.
> 
> Seriously. It's the owner's fault for waiting so long, now the equipment cost is double what it would have been a few years earlier.
> 
> ...



sounds like a GIANT waste of time and money.....


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## justa buzzid (Jan 16, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> we have worked with a couple of climbers experienced with crane removals doing trees as you have described. their procedure was to tie off above the ball, crane would hoist climber to pick point, he would set choker, rappel down to a conservative cut point, make the cut, crane holds load in position till climber descends to ground and is out of way, then crane moves load to landing zone. repeat as required for full removal. crane, rigging, climber's gear all rated, conservative weight cuts and load control essential. have also had climber stay with load till both could be moved to a safe lz for climber to descend (climbing line stays in rope bag with him till he descends). after climber descends, crane lands cut piece.



sounds like you and russell had a chat last time you guys worked together....


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## beastmaster (Jan 16, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> sounds like a GIANT waste of time and money.....



I like a challenge, and rarely walk on a job. I pride my self on being able to do the impossible if need be. With that being said am not suicidal. I will figure out a safe and effective solution. If that solution includes four cranes and a helicopter(just saying)so be it. It'll be reflected in the bid. If time and money is being wasted the job was under bidded. 
Some trees seem to dangerous or difficult for the average Company to safely take down. That shows good sense. And on those trees no sane person would do, two things are important, You must think out side the box, and you have to bid high so no time is wasted or money lost. If it's not worth it to the customer, it's not worth my time and effort.
I know a Man who once got 50,000.00 for a removal of a big dead pine tree.(in the 1980's) No one else would do it. This guy thought out side the box, and did a tree that couldn't be done.
The Customer always has the option to not pay your price, that's fine to. But if he excepts your bid and you feel the need for special equipment there is no such thing as wasteing time and money to do the impossible or insanely hazardous.
That is how I feel anyway.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 16, 2013)

i have the answer, man. 

1 crane. 1 climber. 1 rope bag. 2 slings. 

thanks!


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## Tree Pig (Jan 16, 2013)

So what your saying is at about this point use the rope bag:wink:


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## justa buzzid (Jan 16, 2013)

Tree Pig said:


> So what your saying is at about this point use the rope bag





without getting into the how's and the why's, a rope bag is key. yes.


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## Tree Pig (Jan 16, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> without getting into the how's and the why's, a rope bag is key. yes.



I dont care about the hows or whys but I think I know who is at the other end of that crane and its just what this place needs right now


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## justa buzzid (Jan 16, 2013)

c'mon, man. get a pic off the facebook page! that picture is oooold. like long ago old.


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## treemandan (Jan 16, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> without getting into the how's and the why's, a rope bag is key. yes.



Hopefully you put it over yer head to muffle the sound.


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## Bermie (Jan 16, 2013)

On a crane job, I put a large shackle ABOVE the ball, put ring/ring FS in the shackle, zip tie it so it doesn't come out of the shackle bow, and tie in as per normal. Also the shackle pin is tied or wired so it can't possible rotate out.

Crane lifts me up to the top (or delimb on way up if needed), install sling, rapell down to cut point, tie in, detach from FS on ball, tension crane, cut, crane lifts piece away, comes back with sling, repeat.
Mind you, that's for a LIVE tree, with yours, bets are off that the tree may not collapse just as the piece is being lifted and you are tied to it...

If you can bomb it while just using the crane as your TIP, that would be cool, otherwise, another crane to take the pieces away.
I did a leaning palm tree, over a road, with two crane trucks, one for me, one for the pieces, sweet.
I would never ride the piece, never mix rigging and climbing, just too many things could go pear shaped!


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## Reg (Jan 16, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> I have this job coming up to remove these dead hazardous Euc's. Today we removed one that fell over. It had no roots at all. Its a safe bet none of the other ones do either. The bases are full of conks and their toasty dead. There is a big Koi pond behind them(biggest I've ever seen)and in front a block wall fence. The biggest one is maybe 75 feet with back lean and most the weight towards the koi pond.
> No way I'd climb these. The Company I'm doing this for has a KB crane, and we talking about getting a bigger crane to come in. I don't want to be in those trees tied in. I want to just hang from the KB crane and piece them out. The other option is to cut a piece and ride down with it. I've never done this before and not sure how to go about it. Do you wait for the piece to be lifted than go with it after its off? Any one ever do this and could give me some pointers I'd appreciated it.
> These trees are ready to fall over. If they weren't so dead I could maybe free fall them, but I'm sure any pulling on them could cause them to break off and fall any which way. I feel comfortable doing them while hanging from the crane and just chucking them down, Can't say for sure they wouldn't pull a part it lifted. Have to play that by ear. But I am interested in how to ride a piece down. I don't want to use two cranes in case the tree did fall over a boom might get hit(the KB is only 70 feet and would have to be pretty close.)
> Thanks for any input.
> ...



Just stay tied in the crane while you're slinging and pre-loading. If all is well at that point then you should be fine to tie-in below the cut. If it didn't collapse already its surely wont when you lift the top off. The fact that they're dead means that they'll weigh nothing....thats good!


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## Reg (Jan 16, 2013)

Feedback score, WtF is that?


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2013)

Reg said:


> Just stay tied in the crane while you're slinging and pre-loading. If all is well at that point then you should be fine to tie-in below the cut. If it didn't collapse already its surely wont when you lift the top off. The fact that they're dead means that they'll weigh nothing....thats good!



I dunno about that Reg. It kinda does depend on how its un-weighted sometimes. We all have seen tree that were standing but if you so much as touched them...:msp_scared:


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## justa buzzid (Jan 18, 2013)

Bermie said:


> On a crane job, I put a large shackle ABOVE the ball, put ring/ring FS in the shackle, zip tie it so it doesn't come out of the shackle bow, and tie in as per normal. Also the shackle pin is tied or wired so it can't possible rotate out.
> 
> Crane lifts me up to the top (or delimb on way up if needed), install sling, rapell down to cut point, tie in, detach from FS on ball, tension crane, cut, crane lifts piece away, comes back with sling, repeat.
> Mind you, that's for a LIVE tree, with yours, bets are off that the tree may not collapse just as the piece is being lifted and you are tied to it...
> ...



wrong.


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2013)

Reg said:


> Feedback score, WtF is that?



I dunno but around it can't be good.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 18, 2013)

Reg said:


> Just stay tied in the crane while you're slinging and pre-loading. If all is well at that point then you should be fine to tie-in below the cut. If it didn't collapse already its surely wont when you lift the top off. The fact that they're dead means that they'll weigh nothing....thats good!



and half wrong.

what up reg! all well i hope.


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2013)

Anyone I have ever seen or heard of riding a pick was either a youngin bound for glory or a twisted old moldy with a sickness and some really nasty scars.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 18, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Anyone I have ever seen or heard of riding a pick was either a youngin bound for glory or a twisted old moldy with a sickness and some really nasty scars.



dan, maybe i'd agree with you but you wear knee pads and carry three saws on a crane job... i understand the knee pads for when your mouth gets sour cause by then the knees gotta hurt but your game is single man jobs. 

so while i maaay trust your opinion on the best way to plant an ornamental, you have ZERO idea of what quality production crane work is... none. 

i ain't mad at ya.


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## Reg (Jan 18, 2013)

treemandan said:


> I dunno about that Reg. It kinda does depend on how its un-weighted sometimes. We all have seen tree that were standing but if you so much as touched them...:msp_scared:


Well, I'm not sayin start yankin it sideways or anything Danno.....but the mere fact that you have crane involved, capable of doing a pull-test with or without a climber in the zone, is a huge luxury. Manual rigging, different ballgame. Plenty options here. Ride up there on the hook and shake the top about with your hands if you have to Beastmaster, get the feel of the tree, then you'll know. You'll be fine, need not be a big deal.


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## Reg (Jan 18, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> and half wrong.
> 
> what up reg! all well i hope.



survivin man, thanks


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 18, 2013)

If you go to my profile you can see pics from a crane job I did (my climber was in a man basket -- I was and still am --- recovering from an injury or I would have done my first crane removal). 

Why the basket? the tree was a honey locust with massive compound thorns, and the tree had 5 main trunks each of which had a crown of 20-45 large limbs. Moving around this tree would have been a ##### -- plus the base was completely hollow, two of the 5 sub-trunks had decay, and the weight of the tree was towards a fancy home. Rigging off the tree was also questionable, but it turned out to be OK for the small stuff; being in the basket meant quicker rigging and a back up plan of a sub-trunk failed.

One improvement would have been to have a second guy in the basket to steady it by holding on to the tree, as it tended to drift away while the climber was working. 

I had a client make a video:

Historic Honey Locust - YouTube


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> dan, maybe i'd agree with you but you wear knee pads and carry three saws on a crane job... i understand the knee pads for when your mouth gets sour cause by then the knees gotta hurt but your game is single man jobs.
> 
> so while i maaay trust your opinion on the best way to plant an ornamental, you have ZERO idea of what quality production crane work is... none.
> 
> i ain't mad at ya.



Hey, wait a minute! I thought you were supposed to put that bag over yer head. And why is it fellows like you always be telling people about what they do or don't have ideas about? You just can't go around defining people you barely know, not only is it rude, crass, ignorant but also a sign of deep rooted insecurity.


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2013)

Reg said:


> survivin man, thanks



Jeez, and here I was thinking you were living off of the royalties.:msp_sad:


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## justa buzzid (Jan 18, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Hey, wait a minute! I thought you were supposed to put that bag over yer head. And why is it fellows like you always be telling people about what they do or don't have ideas about? You just can't go around defining people you barely know, not only is it rude, crass, ignorant but also a sign of deep rooted insecurity.




no need to get so emotional, dan. just calling it as i see it and i'll tell ya something, danno... i'm pretty f'n good at judging talent. see, i know exactly how to attack beasties tree issue but the problem is none of you know how to do it safely so you just gonna bounce bad ideas of each other or add in extra cranes/costs and think job well done.

well, dan. you wrong. why you posting on a crane thread and i ask out of curiosity. how many years you got doing crane work? legit day to day work?


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 18, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Hopefully you put it over yer head to muffle the sound.


oh #### that's funny !


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## squad143 (Jan 18, 2013)

Don't know Euc's and just starting to do crane work, so I won't comment on how to do it.

Just make sure you quote it to work within your area's regulations. (Don't think riding the pick is allowed anywhere.... But I could be wrong). If that means two cranes, crane & basket, or whatever, include it in the cost. If you cut corners to save cost, chances are you're only compromising your safety. Sure, you may get away with it today, but push the envelope long enough and your bound to eventually get a paper cut. Do it right. We're professionals.

Cut corners and you're no different than the hack with a pick-up, chainsaw and no insurance.

Off my soap box now. Best of luck.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 18, 2013)

Am I the only one that is terrified of riding in a basket? I'm sorry, I just HATE the idea of depending on another human to move my body around, into, and out of dicey sits. I've done it before, and I never want to do it again. I'd rather rely on my climbline and the tree to put me where I choose to be. #### tha CO and the posturing bull#### of osha/ansi...That's me up there. Imma do the job as I see fit.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 18, 2013)

just sayin...


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## treemandan (Jan 18, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> no need to get so emotional, dan. just calling it as i see it and i'll tell ya something, danno... i'm pretty f'n good at judging talent. see, i know exactly how to attack beasties tree issue but the problem is none of you know how to do it safely so you just gonna bounce bad ideas of each other or add in extra cranes/costs and think job well done.
> 
> well, dan. you wrong. why you posting on a crane thread and i ask out of curiosity. how many years you got doing crane work? legit day to day work?



I suggest maybe you try another bag, one is obviously not enough.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 18, 2013)

treemandan said:


> I suggest maybe you try another bag, one is obviously not enough.




Hey dan, what knot should i terminate with when i want to pull myself into the tree via pickup truck? any suggestions?


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## justa buzzid (Jan 18, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> just sayin...



You right blakes, a man basket has no place in tree work off a crane unless you doing Christmas lights ..


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## Incomplete (Jan 18, 2013)

Curious: how is a basket safer than the harness and climb lines we trust our lives with every day? Baskets can't spin out of control? If no OSHA, then it should be what you're comfortable with. Besides that, if you're life-lined from the ball, you can lanyard into the tree, drifting basket problem solved. 

I think Bermie had the key: YOU DON'T MIX RIGGING WITH LIFE SUPPORT. Sounds like two cranes, Beasty: one for you, one for the work. Stay safe.


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## Pelorus (Jan 19, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> what knot should i terminate with when i want to pull myself into the tree via pickup truck? any suggestions?



View attachment 274243
Adequate termination?


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## squad143 (Jan 19, 2013)

I feel uncomfortable in a bucket. Have rented towables before and flew my first 60' (VersaTech) this year. Probably unomfortable cause im so used to climbing and have little tim in a lift. They are safer and faster than climbing when used right.

What do this guys know.......

Crane Tree Removal - YouTube

"Big Tree Top" and Tree lopping Ace Tree - YouTube

Big Extreme Hazard Crane Tree Cutting Removals ACE "Sail Song" Awolnation - YouTube


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 19, 2013)

squad143 said:


> I feel uncomfortable in a bucket. Have rented towables before and flew my first 60' (VersaTech) this year. Probably unomfortable cause im so used to climbing and have little tim in a lift. They are safer and faster than climbing when used right.
> 
> What do this guys know.......
> 
> ...



I think you missed my point. I'm not uncomfortable with a man basket from lack of use. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the operator of the basket is on the ground and can't see what I see in the air. I didn't watch all of ACE's vids again but if memory serves me right all the controls on their man lifts are located in the bucket/basket which is much safer for obvious reasons.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 19, 2013)

Hate to brake it to you squad but what ace is using is a bucket truck on roids.... not a stupid basket hanging from a crane... and you still wrong about two cranes.


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## Incomplete (Jan 19, 2013)

The Craneman in the last video is a freaking a genius. He should have many children with the wife of his youth and pass his legacy to them.


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## squad143 (Jan 19, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> I think you missed my point. I'm not uncomfortable with a man basket from lack of use. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the operator of the basket is on the ground and can't see what I see in the air. I didn't watch all of ACE's vids again but if memory serves me right all the controls on their man lifts are located in the bucket/basket which is much safer for obvious reasons.



Got ya Blake's, and I did miss that. Yes, I believe ACE has controls in their buckets.


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## squad143 (Jan 19, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> Hate to brake it to you squad but what ace is using is a bucket truck on roids.... not a stupid basket hanging from a crane... and you still wrong about two cranes.



I wasn't thinking of a basket hanging from a crane, but a fixed basked that is attached to the crane.

A lot of us come on this site to expand our knowledge and occasionally give it when we can.

All I see from you is, you telling everybody how wrong they are. Care to enlighten us, or are you "Justa Troll". 

Nothing personal, just saying.


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## squad143 (Jan 19, 2013)

Here is an option Blake's.

Attach yourself above the ball of the crane and rig off the hook, you could lower the pieces down from the ball. I believe ANSI will allow it when there is no other way.

Found this article: http://www.tcia.org/pdfs/TCI_MAG_March_07.pdf
On page 54 has a picture and description. Sorry, I was unable to cut and paste it.
Good article.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 19, 2013)

You're on fire, dude. Keep these money making ideas coming .. lol


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## beastmaster (Jan 19, 2013)

I did that job Friday. It was pretty uneventful. The biggest one I cut off the big limbs on the one side hanging from the KB. I took small pieces and just bombed them down. The KB wasn't tall enough to reach the top of the tallest Euc so I was put up as high as i could be and climbed up 10 ft and put in a tipping line. I took that whole piece(10 ft) hanging from the crane. It shook and swayed and I thought it was going to fall over for sure. We unbolted the rod iron fence and I fell rest of it between the block wall supports. Shrapnel flew 40 ft. and a almost took out a sliding glass door on the house. the smaller ones I chunked out off the KB then fell them side ways into some other trees, Then using the KB to get them out. We were out of there in four hours that included lunch bought by the HO.
I don't care about Osha, I felt pretty safe tied into that crane. I'v done a lot of work off that crane over the last few years with that company and I really trust the operator.
The Company must of came out good, they paid me and the boss bought me a new air compressor as a present.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 19, 2013)

squad143 said:


> Here is an option Blake's.
> 
> Attach yourself above the ball of the crane and rig off the hook, you could lower the pieces down from the ball. I believe ANSI will allow it when there is no other way.
> 
> ...



Couldn't get the article to load for whatever reason. You'd still be running into the possible legal issues of using a crane for life support and rigging at the same time. I also don't like the shock loading the crane that could happen in that scenario. Especially if it's a crane I am tied into. I think you're over thinking the whole deal. It isn't that much of a deviation from normal craning procedures to stay tied in, set the rigging, and make the cut. I'm actually surprised more people haven't come across a scenario where this was the most logical safe route to take. Yes, second crane could be brought in, or a specialized lift, or a ####ing helicopter, but it's just unnecessary in most situations.


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## dbl612 (Jan 19, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Couldn't get the article to load for whatever reason. You'd still be running into the possible legal issues of using a crane for life support and rigging at the same time. I also don't like the shock loading the crane that could happen in that scenario. Especially if it's a crane I am tied into. I think you're over thinking the whole deal. It isn't that much of a deviation from normal craning procedures to stay tied in, set the rigging, and make the cut. I'm actually surprised more people haven't come across a scenario where this was the most logical safe route to take. Yes, second crane could be brought in, or a specialized lift, or a ####ing helicopter, but it's just unnecessary in most situations.



what has a rating, all the collective equipment or the tree? whats the safest path? climber decides on the size of the piece being cut, applies the rigging at the proper location, and directs the tensioning of the pick, therefore has a lot to say about the shock loading of the crane. climber and op understanding each others limits. =safety.


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## dbl612 (Jan 19, 2013)

*ansi z133*

researching ansi regs- z133.1-2006 section 5.7.9.11 addresses the discussion in this thread clearly. simple translation, riding with the pick is permissable if it is deemed to be the safest method to use because of a compromised tree and all hazards are evaluated. as they say with epa mileage stats your experience may differ!


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 19, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> what has a rating, all the collective equipment or the tree? whats the safest path? climber decides on the size of the piece being cut, applies the rigging at the proper location, and directs the tensioning of the pick, therefore has a lot to say about the shock loading of the crane. climber and op understanding each others limits. =safety.



To clear up any confusion in my previous post, I was referring to Squad's idea ( as I understood it at least ) of running a rope through the hook to lower the piece to the ground, a la conventional tree rigging, which would put the risk of shock load to the crane. What you, I and mista buzzid are advocating, done correctly, is the safest and most efficient way to do dead/dangerous trees.


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## squad143 (Jan 19, 2013)

Blakes

I tried to reply to the PM but your mailbox is full.

Fill in the censored part with tree(then the sound a bee makes)


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## justa buzzid (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm not advocating nothing, blakes...

Hey, you see any of them pics or vids I've been putting up on fb? Sick, right.

How the f do you post pics here ? wtf...

Tbuzz, eh squad? I heard that about you.


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## Incomplete (Jan 19, 2013)

"Employers should be aware of these other standards so that if their company is cited by OSHA for violating a standard that does not pertain to the tree industry, the employer can respond with knowledge of the subject matter."

That's the money quote right there. 

Thank you for posting that link. That is an awesome, invaluable article.

Good job Beasty, pictures would have been awesome.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 19, 2013)

I cleared my inbox, squad, which also included the link you sent me. Sorry. I'll take a look at it if you want to send it again. 

Buzzid, I've seen the pics, was actually kinda scary that pic from your last day in NYC, lookin like a gaunt little vegan or some ####, don't JM feed you boys when you're out of town? lol


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

You've never worked for the redhead have you? I worked six days for jm drove down sunday night and put in eighteen straight sixteen hr days for Dan ... ya i was beaten!!


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

This thread be renamed to the ten different ways to skin a cat , and what the #### is everyone arguing about ? Remember killers it's just tree work , there are bigger things In this world to measure your #### along side of , if someone was just reading through this kinda makes a few guys look like fags just saying here !


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

why the fyuck is it so hard to post pics on this site?!?!?!?!?!? wtf!

i would actually post a couple pics of highly dangerous cutting situations in crippled trees and show you tards how stupid it is to try to bring in extra equipment especially when there are another hundred or so tree to make safe all around and only an idiot would try to bring a second crane in on 1 crew.

seriously. what the fyuck. 

not only am i telling you that i am better than you but i am willing to show why.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> This thread be renamed to the ten different ways to skin a cat , and what the #### is everyone arguing about ? Remember killers it's just tree work , there are bigger things In this world to measure your #### along side of , if someone was just reading through this kinda makes a few guys look like fags just saying here !



you know what i like, eddie?

i like looking at the views of all these threads in the commercial forum and then having a look at the views of this thread that i hopped in. lol.

do you have an oversized keyboard? you must run into the issue hitting extra keys when you only wanted to hit one...


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

It's easy to post pics tard see ! LOL


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

c'mon dude! how you doing this? ive searched this site up and down and still can't get past that stupid little box that pops up.....


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

It's appears this thread is kinda shot and I just fell the hell out laughing , so here's a video for ya buzzid and I am on a iPad ####s tight for all the pics and video crap [video=youtube_share;VMvr8MXXG4o]http://youtu.be/VMvr8MXXG4o[/video]


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 20, 2013)




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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

hey, bermie. you likey!?.....

chit, i likey!!!


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


>



great pic!!! three buzzards , one branch!!!


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

LOL. thanks, blakes.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> great pic!!! three buzzards , one branch!!!



Ya see, buddy, not that hard to post a pic. Easy as treework with a crane! lol


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## Reg (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> I'm not advocating nothing, blakes...
> 
> Hey, you see any of them pics or vids I've been putting up on fb? Sick, right.
> 
> ...



Im not on facebook. lets see what you got Justin


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

where you going to work this tree from?


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

Reg said:


> Im not on facebook. lets see what you got Justin



REG!!!!

what up, man?! gotta be selective as to what i can share but i got something fo ya!


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> I cleared my inbox, squad, which also included the link you sent me. Sorry. I'll take a look at it if you want to send it again.
> 
> Buzzid, I've seen the pics, was actually kinda scary that pic from your last day in NYC, lookin like a gaunt little vegan or some ####, don't JM feed you boys when you're out of town? lol





kinda tired at this point....


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> where you going to work this tree from?





all kidding aside.

where you guys going to work this tree from? the hung up leader on the left was over 8k if memory serves correct.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> all kidding aside.
> 
> where you guys going to work this tree from? the hung up leader on the left was over 8k if memory serves correct.


 nice picture , but you still haven't answered the original question of this thread ..... And besides we all know that you like posing with a huge stick behind you ! And I would eat that tree up with a bucket or by hand and I have pics to prove it


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

you always did have a hankering for finger food....


hate to break it to you , big fella but those breaks are at 70ft.... you're bucket ain't gonna cut it. that and we don't have the luxury of spending all day on one tree and the rule was no damage to the other trees...


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

if the question was do i ride the pick around then the answer is, never. emphatically a no.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

whatcha gonna do with this one? hahaha!


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

I dunno I am looking at it from 200 ft away , figure it the hell out for damn sure , I enjoy the view though , prolly tip tie off the tree that its leaning on , take out the top and pull the trunk into the hole , ya know a little murphing and complex rigging , you know what I am talking about Justin your just tearing em up with a crane that's all well and good but I can figure some #### out as well ....... Buddy


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

same grouping of trees 3 hours later , by hand no magic stick just me and a saw LOL ! And all three were completely uprooted and loose and weight bearing the roof ,


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

You'd be all craned up half million in the yard and I am wrecking #### with a saw and saddle LOL ..........so suck it ..........


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

three hours later!? we already onto the fourth set up of the day....


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 20, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> You'd be all craned up half million in the yard and I am wrecking #### with a saw and saddle LOL ..........so suck it ..........



Don't forget about the ever important rake handle! lol


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

aaaaand this is a crane thread, no? but like i said we don't have the luxury of screwing the pooch, if we spent three hours per tree we'd get thrown off the contract.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Don't forget about the ever important rake handle! lol



That's a wood pole douche !


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Don't forget about the ever important rake handle! lol



if you ductape two rake handles together and stuff them in your butt and sprinted around the yard, blakes, you'd really speed up your clean up times.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> if you ductape two rake handles together and stuff them in your butt and sprinted around the yard, blakes, you'd really speed up your clean up times.



eddie has this technique down pat. he even tapes an extra rake to his forearms and goes four rakes deep running through the yard... he's nasty at fall clean ups too. never uses the backpack blower.....


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

3 hours and 4 setups , well yea someone has to pay the payments on all that #### , and if that was a rake handle it would be for a 12 ft Man and we all know they aren't made that long


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## Reg (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> REG!!!!
> 
> what up, man?! gotta be selective as to what i can share but i got something fo ya!



Yeah I'd be careful too what you say and show in public. No problem


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 20, 2013)

Flyers are on in one minute , and football , so I am peacin out ..... Stay safe maniacs


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## Reg (Jan 20, 2013)

Reg said:


> Yeah I'd be careful too what you say and show in public. No problem



And still spurless? I know doin how you do its not a necessity....but a pair of light-weights with short gaffs you'd hardly notice. Especially in the rain on those hardwoods!


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 20, 2013)

Reg said:


> And still spurless? I know doin how you do its not a necessity....but a pair of light-weights with short gaffs you'd hardly notice. Especially in the rain on those hardwoods!



I leave my gaffs on the ground whenever I can in crane gigs. Spruces and white pines don't ever need them for the most part. Reason is I'm up, down and all over the place when craning. It slows down production to be taking the spikes off and on all the time.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

Don't you have a shirt that says spikes are for sissies?


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## Reg (Jan 20, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> I leave my gaffs on the ground whenever I can in crane gigs. Spruces and white pines don't ever need them for the most part. Reason is I'm up, down and all over the place when craning. It slows down production to be taking the spikes off and on all the time.



Really ?

Well, always interested to learn how people do it elsewhere. Thanks Blakes

Out here, without spurs, you wouldn't be doing much treework. And lots of the trees outreach the cranes. But this being a crane thread, I'll stop there.

Keep the pics comin Justin:msp_thumbup:


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## treemandan (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> hey, bermie. you likey!?.....
> 
> chit, i likey!!!



Is this the one you have stapled on the ceiling above yer bed?


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## CalTreeEquip (Jan 20, 2013)

Beastmaster I just wanted to say, your boss should have given you a new set of brass balls rather than a compressor. That way you can replace the bronze ones you must have puckered up when you road that load down. Or at least some new boxers.


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## dbl612 (Jan 20, 2013)

*boxers*



CalTreeEquip said:


> Beastmaster I just wanted to say, your boss should have given you a new set of brass balls rather than a compressor. That way you can replace the bronze ones you must have puckered up when you road that load down. Or at least some new boxers.



if the climber knows what he is doing he doesn't have to change his shorts doing his job.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 20, 2013)

Reg said:


> Really ?
> 
> Well, always interested to learn how people do it elsewhere. Thanks Blakes
> 
> ...



Spurs have their place, and when in full manual mode, I'm better with them, than without. Certain situations require deviation from the common rule of thumb though. Anytime you're over this way, Reg, I'd be more than happy to trade insights.


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## treemandan (Jan 20, 2013)

CalTreeEquip said:


> Beastmaster I just wanted to say, your boss should have given you a new set of brass balls rather than a compressor. That way you can replace the bronze ones you must have puckered up when you road that load down. Or at least some new boxers.



Wait! After all this I missed the part where he rode the load. Did he really? DAM! That's hardcore.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Wait! After all this I missed the part where he rode the load. Did he really? DAM! That's hardcore.



beastie ride'n them loads, you love'n em....


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

so whats up, reg? how you liking bc? you having any fun? wanna learn how to climb off a crane? i'm looking for a motivated climber that gives a chit to join my crew..... you in?

i tried fighting it as long as i could but they finally pulled the trigger for me. looks like my climbing days are behind me now.....


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## mr. holden wood (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> so whats up, reg? how you liking bc? you having any fun? wanna learn how to climb off a crane? i'm looking for a motivated climber that gives a chit to join my crew..... you in?
> 
> i tried fighting it as long as i could but they finally pulled the trigger for me. looks like my climbing days are behind me now.....



Someday you'll look back at all the chit you did for $25 bucks an hr and shake yer head. Reg ain't going anywhere, sounds like you aren't either.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Is this the one you have stapled on the ceiling above yer bed?



i actually like this pic better, danno...

that's my puppy. training him with all i know about the game. tree game that is.... he's coming along nicely and works hard so its easy for me to share what i know with him... he's earning his knowledge. 19 yrs old and running the grapple chipper for my crew and i had him with me for the past yr on a 2 or 3 man crew doing all the backyard jammies we had for my bucket/climbing crew. i just need him to do a bunch more situational cutting before i can cut him loose into the full time climbing as eager as he is... not enough time has passed in his journey for me to set him free. yet.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 20, 2013)

mr. holden wood said:


> Someday you'll look back at all the chit you did for $25 bucks an hr and shake yer head. Reg ain't going anywhere, sounds like you aren't either.



wee bit more than that homeboy but who's counting.... that ain't no backyard gig.

where your crane pics? still using the 2hundo t ?


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## mr. holden wood (Jan 20, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> wee bit more than that homeboy but who's counting.... that ain't no backyard gig.
> 
> where your crane pics? still using the 2hundo t ?



I got plenty a pics ya filthy hippy, just dont retire for day wages thats all.Waisted talent.View attachment 274585


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## beastmaster (Jan 21, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Wait! After all this I missed the part where he rode the load. Did he really? DAM! That's hardcore.



I never said I rode the pick down. I took the cowards way out and just hung from the boom. This has been an interesting thread. I never did a crane job before 5 years ago, but have done more and more of them. Cranes aren't used as much out here as they are on the east coast I think. I am lucky to have worked for a company that has their own crane. 
Lots of hot shot Arborist/crane guys out there. Me I am just an old tree guy, slow, and carefull, and have worked local my whole life. I don't put my self in the same category as you experts, so I appreciate the advice and you all taking the time to voice your opinions. 
I still kind of resent cranes some for taking the rigging out of removals, but from a time and labor stand point their awesome.


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## treemandan (Jan 21, 2013)

mr. holden wood said:


> Someday you'll look back at all the chit you did for $25 bucks an hr and shake yer head. Reg ain't going anywhere, sounds like you aren't either.



Ain't it the truth.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> so whats up, reg? how you liking bc? you having any fun? wanna learn how to climb off a crane? i'm looking for a motivated climber that gives a chit to join my crew..... you in?
> 
> i tried fighting it as long as i could but they finally pulled the trigger for me. looks like my climbing days are behind me now.....



Wow ..... You have to look for guys ? I thought with all your stardom as the best tree climber/ operator that the guys would be knocking the walls down to sniff your jours ! Just kidding but really look for a guy :msp_sad:


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

As you well aware, Eddie, I have a pretty high standard that I hold my work to and from some of the paper work I've accumulated over the years some guys have a hard time working with me ... lol.


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## Reg (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> so whats up, reg? how you liking bc? you having any fun? wanna learn how to climb off a crane? i'm looking for a motivated climber that gives a chit to join my crew..... you in?
> 
> i tried fighting it as long as i could but they finally pulled the trigger for me. looks like my climbing days are behind me now.....



I like it I guess, was about ready for change at the time, be 2 years in June. The climbing, whether pruning or wrecking is very physical, so I stay in shape and eat the right stuff. We dont do lots of crane work for the reason I said earlier, but its nice when it happens. Quite the macho environment at times, lots of ex-loggers, fallers and toppers in the game....and if youre not blowing out big tops around here, you're not doin tree work. I work with lots of them, big guys. They hear my accent and think WTF! but when Im done, they either come over and shake my hand, or go hide somewhere pretending to be busy....depending on their character.


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## Reg (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> wanna learn how to climb off a crane?
> 
> .



Rest assured. That'd be about a 5 minute conversation, while I'm putting my spurs on.....or leaving them off if you like. Whatever.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

That said I'm working at it... truly.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 21, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> same grouping of trees 3 hours later , by hand no magic stick just me and a saw LOL ! And all three were completely uprooted and loose and weight bearing the roof ,



Maybe I should rethink the story I retold as true here, as told to me by a big stick logger I know (retired from that) who said he won a guy's wages side-hilling a 6 ft. leaner hemlock on a mountain side without an ax, by pounding in stacked wedges (using a wedge to pound 'em in).

Just sayin':msp_tongue:


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 21, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Am I the only one that is terrified of riding in a basket? I'm sorry, I just HATE the idea of depending on another human to move my body around, into, and out of dicey sits. I've done it before, and I never want to do it again. I'd rather rely on my climbline and the tree to put me where I choose to be. #### tha CO and the posturing bull#### of osha/ansi...That's me up there. Imma do the job as I see fit.



I respect your opinion. If you looked at the vid or pics, you could see that the tree had been topped multiple times, was hollow and open at t he base with a thin shell, and weighted towards the home. One leader had obvious decay along its length, and after the big pieces were on the ground, it turned out that another was rotten almost all the way through at one spot. I assumed that the topped leaders had extensive decay right where you would tie in a pulley to rig down the limbs -- some of which were 18 in. ,diameter and 40 ft. long. Plus, between the thorns, separation of the leaders, and thatched limbs, it looked liked climbing would have taken days. So i went with the man basket.

Turned out that my climber didn't like using it much, but it did save time, and we needed the crane anyway to lower the big wood. Every big tree removal is a bit different, as you know, so your dismissal of a crane basket seems to me a bit hasty in THIS CASE. May be right in others.

BTW again, I worked on a 270 ft. tower crane as the "arbornaut" in the basket for 2 1/2 years at a research site -- often out of sight with the operator in the cab. I had to know the sound of each of three motors and tell the operator the distance (in three directions) while moving about. Perfect safety record -- except I dropped my radio twice due to a crappy snap on the lanyard. Got a lot of #### for that:msp_biggrin:


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 21, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> I respect your opinion. If you looked at the vid or pics, you could see that the tree had been topped multiple times, was hollow and open at t he base with a thin shell, and weighted towards the home. One leader had obvious decay along its length, and after the big pieces were on the ground, it turned out that another was rotten almost all the way through at one spot. I assumed that the topped leaders had extensive decay right where you would tie in a pulley to rig down the limbs -- some of which were 18 in. ,diameter and 40 ft. long. Plus, between the thorns, separation of the leaders, and thatched limbs, it looked liked climbing would have taken days. So i went with the man basket.
> 
> Turned out that my climber didn't like using it much, but it did save time, and we needed the crane anyway to lower the big wood. Every big tree removal is a bit different, as you know, so your dismissal of a crane basket seems to me a bit hasty in THIS CASE. May be right in others.
> 
> BTW again, I worked on a 270 ft. tower crane as the "arbornaut" in the basket for 2 1/2 years at a research site -- often out of sight with the operator in the cab. I had to know the sound of each of three motors and tell the operator the distance (in three directions) while moving about. Perfect safety record -- except I dropped my radio twice due to a crappy snap on the lanyard. Got a lot of #### for that:msp_biggrin:



I did look at the video and pics. A man basket is not a good option for tree work.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 21, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Maybe I should rethink the story I retold as true here, as told to me by a big stick logger I know (retired from that) who said he won a guy's wages side-hilling a 6 ft. leaner hemlock on a mountain side without an ax, by pounding in stacked wedges (using a wedge to pound 'em in).
> 
> Just sayin':msp_tongue:



Pics don't lie granted I am a badass mofo , doubtful many guys woulda had it out like that , cause yea I am that good


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 21, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Pics don't lie granted I am a badass mofo , doubtful many guys woulda had it out like that , cause yea I am that good



Well, he would be pissed that I posted a few pics of him without permission, but this guy IS a badassmofo. (in his prime, anyway). Therefore, his story COULD be true.

Topping a big fir snag:

View attachment 274703


Cutting a big cedar on a fire:

View attachment 274702


View attachment 274701


getting ready to drop a big fir on another fire:


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## Bermie (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> wrong.



Why?


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

Bermie said:


> Why?



You should have your lanyard thru the hook as a second tie in.
Jeff


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

Bermie said:


> Why?



really small pictures, bermie... first of all the thought of climbing of a friction saver that is hanging on the side of a crane ball really makes me want to give treemandan a good swift toe kick to his testicles... i don't want to do that mind you but the mere thought of someone being that "daft" (nice for dumb) as to hang a fabric off perfectly good steel that can also be pinched by a cabled up ball or smashed up against while moving in and about the tree just drives me f'n crazy. the safety factor of that locked up super rated shackle has just been undone by use of the the f/s.

argue all you want but put it to a pull test.... what breaks first? the shackle or the f/s.....

you want to be real safe bermie? put a big ol' master link on top of the ball and hang that shackle off the link. bang. double super rated steel and no STUPID F'N f/s.......

thanks....


pic 2.

i bet that piece wobbled like a mofo when he pulled it off sideways (a no no, mind you) and probably came close to you because of the return swing....

anyway, sling that pig higher and put it in line with the boom. start you cut (bar tip under your sling shackle) and finish on the other side pushing the power head directly to the boom. done right the piece shouldn't move if tensioned correctly. this is a 1 cut cut due to the fact you working a spar.


i'll never under stand the practice of stripping a pine tree and then picking wood. makes no sense to me...


any pics of your 2 crane palm tree? i'd love to see that party.


edit: what exactly is that shackle attached to any way? can't see what its on but if i liked it i'd just run my climb line through that...


----------



## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> You should have your lanyard thru the hook as a second tie in.
> Jeff



you have no clue, huh?


why? so you can let the crane op smash your climber in the teeth just so he can hook his lanyard in? lol


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> I respect your opinion. If you looked at the vid or pics, you could see that the tree had been topped multiple times, was hollow and open at t he base with a thin shell, and weighted towards the home. One leader had obvious decay along its length, and after the big pieces were on the ground, it turned out that another was rotten almost all the way through at one spot. I assumed that the topped leaders had extensive decay right where you would tie in a pulley to rig down the limbs -- some of which were 18 in. ,diameter and 40 ft. long. Plus, between the thorns, separation of the leaders, and thatched limbs, it looked liked climbing would have taken days. So i went with the man basket.
> 
> Turned out that my climber didn't like using it much, but it did save time, and we needed the crane anyway to lower the big wood. Every big tree removal is a bit different, as you know, so your dismissal of a crane basket seems to me a bit hasty in THIS CASE. May be right in others.
> 
> BTW again, I worked on a 270 ft. tower crane as the "arbornaut" in the basket for 2 1/2 years at a research site -- often out of sight with the operator in the cab. I had to know the sound of each of three motors and tell the operator the distance (in three directions) while moving about. Perfect safety record -- except I dropped my radio twice due to a crappy snap on the lanyard. Got a lot of #### for that:msp_biggrin:





i did not watch this video but i do know for a fact that a hanging man basket has no place in tree work. oh, wait.... that tree was a hazardous tree and you wouldn't tie into it or rig off it? i maaaaay know how to remedy that situation...

listen not trying to ruin your day but even though the video was probably made with the bestest of them there intentions..... it was still wrong.


stay safe.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> you have no clue, huh?
> 
> 
> why? so you can let the crane op smash your climber in the teeth just so he can hook his lanyard in? lol



We do it ANSI,,, you must be used to some crappy CO's. 
Jeff


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## treemandan (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> really small pictures, bermie... first of all the thought of climbing of a friction saver that is hanging on the side of a crane ball really makes me want to give treemandan a good swift toe kick to his testicles... i don't want to do that mind you but the mere thought of someone being that "daft" (nice for dumb) as to hang a fabric off perfectly good steel that can also be pinched by a cabled up ball or smashed up against while moving in and about the tree just drives me f'n crazy. the safety factor of that locked up super rated shackle has just been undone by use of the the f/s.
> 
> argue all you want but put it to a pull test.... what breaks first? the shackle or the f/s.....
> 
> ...




Well the thing was specifically made for attachment in that manner. The thing that makes you want to toe kick me in the testicles that is. Unlike steel its easy to see damage or wear on rope and webbing. But truthfully I noted how low it rests and I am concerned.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Pics don't lie granted I am a badass mofo , doubtful many guys woulda had it out like that , cause yea I am that good



yah, you're alright dude....


no rigging cool pic though.


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## treemandan (Jan 21, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> We do it ANSI,,, you must be used to some crappy CO's.
> Jeff



Using the lanyard does put a guys face a little close to that hunk of steel though I am sure there is a way to double tie into a crane... if yer a puss:tongue2: But that's fine you cantakerous old stickler, keep em as safe as you can.

As far as my crane hook up goes: It does locate the running climb line away from the ball so its not rubbing up against it, that is its design. It is pretty tough though I don't really like the skinny ring.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

Reg said:


> I like it I guess, was about ready for change at the time, be 2 years in June. The climbing, whether pruning or wrecking is very physical, so I stay in shape and eat the right stuff. We dont do lots of crane work for the reason I said earlier, but its nice when it happens. Quite the macho environment at times, lots of ex-loggers, fallers and toppers in the game....and if youre not blowing out big tops around here, you're not doin tree work. I work with lots of them, big guys. They hear my accent and think WTF! but when Im done, they either come over and shake my hand, or go hide somewhere pretending to be busy....depending on their character.



won't lie, reg. i'd like to work with ya. i've seen enough of your stuff and read enough of your stuff to say that we'd tear chit up together. and i mean that in the most homosexual-less way possible. 

i always love working with people of a like mind at the effort we going to put in and the results we going to put out.

treespect!

listen, seriously. when you ready to slow it down and thoroughly enjoy the ride, come out to beantown and we'll crane up a variety of tree instead of them single stem jammies you working on now. you'll be halfway closer to home and actually not be having to hang out with canadians.

don't get me wrong, you'll work hard but you'll be doing it like a gentleman...

stay safe.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> We do it ANSI,,, you must be used to some crappy CO's.
> Jeff



i see that head a bobble'n!!! bobble on bobblehead.


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## tree MDS (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> yah, you're alright dude....
> 
> 
> no rigging cool pic though.



Looks like someone photoshopped an image of Kenny Loggins in that tree.. just saying. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

kenny got some fly hair but he ain't got no sweet beard....


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Using the lanyard does put a guys face a little close to that hunk of steel though I am sure there is a way to double tie into a crane... if yer a puss:tongue2: But that's fine you cantakerous old stickler, keep em as safe as you can.
> 
> As far as my crane hook up goes: It does locate the running climb line away from the ball so its not rubbing up against it, that is its design. It is pretty tough though I don't really like the skinny ring.



We have to be tied in twice. We are a TCIA Accredited company. I ain't getting into a pissing match,,we do what we do. My pics are available.
Jeff


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> i did not watch this video but i do know for a fact that a hanging man basket has no place in tree work. oh, wait.... that tree was a hazardous tree and you wouldn't tie into it or rig off it? i maaaaay know how to remedy that situation...
> 
> listen not trying to ruin your day but even though the video was probably made with the bestest of them there intentions..... it was still wrong.
> 
> ...



Maybe you are getting at the technique of rigging yourself off the crane (I'm not going to join the argument as to HOW), and rappel off the hook after cutting each piece and before it is laid down? I think I read that described here somewhere. The point was, I did not trust the leaders to bear the weight of rigging down the limbs. Turned out they DID bear the weight just fine -- but I did not know that for sure. 

I do tree risk assessments (ISA, ASCA cert, yadda yadda yadda). I first got the call because a 40 ft. limb fell on the patio just after the family left -- and it was rotten at the attachment; I did the risk assessment and report before I gave him a bid on the job. With the obvious decay and topping history, i would have wanted to climb each leader and inspect them up close, probably drill them as well to test for decay. There was no time or budget for that (plus I couldn't CLIMB (see below), so I took a conservative option (notwithstanding you and some others believe that the man basket is MORE dangerous). 

It so happened that the job was scheduled just after I had my thumb in a splint (dislocated) and two weeks after a rotator cuff injury -- my job was mainly to manage the crew and be a back -up set of eyes for safety that day. I went off my Vicodin to keep a clear head; the pain kept me focused on avoiding MORE pain. I HAD planned to take a turn rigging and cutting some big wood on the tree, but missed the chance. 

If we can never agree on the man basket thing, so be it. 

The client was a tightwad, and actually agreed to let us crash what we hadn't finished the first day (the last two leaders) to save money. Go figure -- the sound of a 800 pound chunk of locust hitting a concrete patio from 50 ft. was pretty impressive. We rigged the pieces with a fiddle block to make sure and miss the home and the basketball hoop. Which we did. A second crane was obviously out of the question. My climber brushed the tree and lowered three of the five leaders in 7 1/2 hrs., and that was after I had to talk the owner into paying for another hr of crane time.

It wasn't a take down -- the tree is still there and is expected to go on growing -- just gave it a haircut from 94 f. to 20 -30 ft.:msp_biggrin:

We probably could have crashed the entire tree piece by piece with a climber tied into the tallest spar, using the fiddleblock to pull things over into free-fall -- but it is hard to predict the degree of impact, and after the fact, what do you do when the client claims you caused more damage than you said would happen? There was that antique Craftsman home with lots of windows 20 ft. away, after all. I busted a window once tossing the last 4 in. limb of a take down to the ground; it bounced in the reverse direction and through the double-slider window; these limbs were up to four times thicker and three times longer, up to 90 ft. up, and the windows were all antique.


----------



## treeclimber101 (Jan 21, 2013)

Ooooofa this thread is a tiring read !


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> i did not watch this video but i do know for a fact that a hanging man basket has no place in tree work. oh, wait.... that tree was a hazardous tree and you wouldn't tie into it or rig off it? i maaaaay know how to remedy that situation...
> 
> listen not trying to ruin your day but even though the video was probably made with the bestest of them there intentions..... it was still wrong.
> 
> ...



Here's a pic of the super hazardous tree this guy has been talking about non stop since he showed up.







..and here's a pic of what I believe to be his bucket truck. There's a shot of it in the vid too. lol






as Dave always said, "anyone can type"...


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## MarquisTree (Jan 21, 2013)

squad143 said:


> Here is an option Blake's.
> 
> Attach yourself above the ball of the crane and rig off the hook, you could lower the pieces down from the ball. I believe ANSI will allow it when there is no other way.
> 
> ...



Rigging off the crane with a block and line? I can't think of a worse idea. Someone actually suggested that and Tcia published it?...wow


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> i see that head a bobble'n!!! bobble on bobblehead.



And that's all you got,, sorry pal, gonna ignore you and your wanna be big boy attitude.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Using the lanyard does put a guys face a little close to that hunk of steel though I am sure there is a way to double tie into a crane... if yer a puss:tongue2: But that's fine you cantakerous old stickler, keep em as safe as you can.
> 
> I hear ya, gotta CYA,, btw, if you bump your head into the ball,, you and the CO work it out!
> Jeff


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Here's a pic of the super hazardous tree this guy has been talking about non stop since he showed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that thing would be perfect for doing hedges and jap maples but other than that someone outta drive that setup of a bridge.... let me guess this guy has every cert the isa can offer, eh? 

wonderful, just wonderful.

no wonder i think the certs are a f'n joke. proof positive right there.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Maybe you are getting at the technique of rigging yourself off the crane (I'm not going to join the argument as to HOW), and rappel off the hook after cutting each piece and before it is laid down? I think I read that described here somewhere. The point was, I did not trust the leaders to bear the weight of rigging down the limbs. Turned out they DID bear the weight just fine -- but I did not know that for sure.
> 
> I do tree risk assessments (ISA, ASCA cert, yadda yadda yadda). I first got the call because a 40 ft. limb fell on the patio just after the family left -- and it was rotten at the attachment; I did the risk assessment and report before I gave him a bid on the job. With the obvious decay and topping history, i would have wanted to climb each leader and inspect them up close, probably drill them as well to test for decay. There was no time or budget for that (plus I couldn't CLIMB (see below), so I took a conservative option (notwithstanding you and some others believe that the man basket is MORE dangerous).
> 
> ...



Let it go, he is insecure and is trying to bait you,, let it go...
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> And that's all you got,, sorry pal, gonna ignore you and your wanna be big boy attitude.
> Jeff



and that's all you got, ya slob? lol.

your neck must kill you when you driving around in that truck and hit a bump and that giant head of yours wobbles for a quarter mile down the road. i've seen "your" work and the words "thoroughly not impressed" come to mind. 

just as i've been reading the borderline crap you've been posting for years.... my first thread back on this site and in but a couple pictures i've debunked this happy horsechit you call good practices and brainstorming. see jeff, you so far removed from the work that you have deluded yourself into thinking you are offering an opinion of any value... the best of what you have to offer is what you just wiped off your ass and flushed down the toilet.


beautiful day, eh?


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Let it go, he is insecure and is trying to bait you,, let it go...
> Jeff :msp_smile:



clown.....


so what are you doing now? are you backing unsafe working practices?


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

blakes, that first pic.... that really took almost 8 hours to put it on the ground?!?!?! oh, sweet jesus!


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Here's a pic of the super hazardous tree this guy has been talking about non stop since he showed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ouch,
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> and that's all you got, ya slob? lol.
> 
> your neck must kill you when you driving around in that truck and hit a bump and that giant head of yours wobbles for a quarter mile down the road. i've seen "your" work and the words "thoroughly not impressed" come to mind.
> 
> ...



I bet if you your work reflected your poetry, you would be the man,
as long as you think you are,, you are,.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 21, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> clown.....
> 
> 
> so what are you doing now? are you backing unsafe working practices?



Well, you sure livened the chat,, I just wonder how sad your life is that you feel a need to be an a s s? 
Cheer up man,, 
Jeff


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## justa buzzid (Jan 21, 2013)

hey jeff, you wanna see a pic of my company truck? i drive this prick everyday now. don't worry bout me, all well here....


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 22, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> Here's a pic of the super hazardous tree this guy has been talking about non stop since he showed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



???

I don't own any heavy equipment, Blakesmaster. What your problem is, I don't know. Or care.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 22, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> that thing would be perfect for doing hedges and jap maples but other than that someone outta drive that setup of a bridge.... let me guess this guy has every cert the isa can offer, eh?
> 
> wonderful, just wonderful.
> 
> no wonder i think the certs are a f'n joke. proof positive right there.



Hey Buzz Lightyear---

You are relatively new around here, and maybe don't get it, but many people in the biz don't need to brag about their skills. If you bothered to read some of what I've written, you would get that. I don't need the various certs, BTW. Some people here have figured that out to. But I am always open to learning from anyone. Apparently, you neither need to learn any more nor feel the need to teach. I guess there isn't much more to say.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 22, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> hey jeff, you wanna see a pic of my company truck? i drive this prick everyday now. don't worry bout me, all well here....



Somehow, what you just said reminded me about the old saying: "the bigger the truck, the smaller the ####"


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## tree MDS (Jan 22, 2013)

opcorn:


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## dbl612 (Jan 22, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> ???
> 
> I don't own any heavy equipment, Blakesmaster. What your problem is, I don't know. Or care.



definately gets an award for the most innovative equipment combination-cablevision aerial device, aerodynamic non-metallic (no static hazard) chip box, followed by rentacenter chipper with high lift chute for proper chip fluff! sorry, couldn
't help myself after the length of thread.


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## tree MDS (Jan 22, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Somehow, what you just said reminded me about the old saying: "the bigger the truck, the smaller the ####"



It's always refreshing to hear echoes from the "it's not the size that matters" camp around here. Lol.


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## treemandan (Jan 22, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Rigging off the crane with a block and line? I can't think of a worse idea. Someone actually suggested that and Tcia published it?...wow



I did it once, scary scene, the hook was lower than the load I dumped on it. I suppose the idea is about the same as hooking a lowering device onto a mini loader- you just have to watch the weight.


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## treemandan (Jan 22, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> hey jeff, you wanna see a pic of my company truck? i drive this prick everyday now. don't worry bout me, all well here....



Oh my, look at the size of the boom on that guy!:rolleyes2:

... Justin the big ####ed buzzard, you'll go down in his-tor-ee!


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 22, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> ???
> 
> I don't own any heavy equipment, Blakesmaster. What your problem is, I don't know. Or care.



No problem here. I just like to learn a little about the new guy running his flapper, especially when he's giving bad information. Figured the rest of the boys would get a kick out of the pics too. 






That's a nice crane there, 70 ton? Parked right on top of the tree too by the looks. Just a heads up, the reason your advice is not being taken seriously is because that tree with that crane should not have been a two day ordeal. If you paid more attention to the experienced minds on this forum you could learn how to knock that thing out in much less time. 






I am curious though, is that really how you left the tree? Confident the risk has been mitigated?

And what's the deal with changing the price mid job? I woulda kicked your ass off the property at that point if I was the HO, have some respect for yourself, your biz, and your industry. Give a price and stick to it. If you don't have the knowledge to give a competitive bid for the whole job, you don't have the knowledge to be tackling that job.


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## Toddppm (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm still trying to figure out what the crane was for when all they did was lay the pieces on the ground and not even take the stuff 5 feet away?
Looks like the equipment was a subs and only the climber worked for him?


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 22, 2013)

Toddppm said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what the crane was for when all they did was lay the pieces on the ground and not even take the stuff 5 feet away?
> Looks like the equipment was a subs and only the climber worked for him?



I apparently "flap my jaw" way too much about what I barely can comprehend, but the crane operator was quite happy to leave the big pieces right at the base of the tree, as locust is quite heavy. At the distance of the farthest pick, he said he was comfortable with about 3000 more pounds above the max size we were taking down. His boom was over the house and a power line, and he was jacked up about 4 ft. on a hill. Maybe he was just a pansy. The owner wanted the wood, so the base of the tree put it closer to his woodpile. The tree came out as an 11 on the ISA constructed RA scale of 12 points; shortened, the tree is a 10 needing annual inspection (to the best of my memory; i wrote the report last summer). I really was confused at the time as to how the tree had not fallen over already when I was doing the RA.


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## Pelorus (Jan 22, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> ?.. shortened, the tree is a 10 needing annual inspection (to the best of my memory; i wrote the report last summer). I really was confused at the time as to how the tree had not fallen over already when I was doing the RA.



Had a guy talk to me years ago about getting a "stub" taken down. Asked him how big it was, height / dia. 
He says it is only about 20' tall, and about "the size of two washing machines wide". I never forgot that, I mean, who ever describes a tree like that?

Turns out it was a red oak that someone had dismantled to that height (around 25') years ago, and left it like that, with a slight lean towards his house. His insurance provider was threatening to cancel his policy for "wilful neglect". End of story, I pulled it down for a nominal amount, and everybody was happy.


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## justa buzzid (Jan 22, 2013)

Once again, slappy, you dead wrong... locust is surprisingly light. keep digging that hole!!


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## beastmaster (Jan 23, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> Once again, slappy, you dead wrong... locust is surprisingly light. keep digging that hole!!



I don't want to get involved in your all pissing contests, but I do know Locust is pretty heavy, only being out done by some Oaks and Euc's. I know this from experience and it can be verified by looking at a green log weight chart. 
It's nice being young, and full of piss and vinegar, nothing wrong with that, but there is more to arborculture then just crane removals.
Good luck out there and be safe.


----------



## TreeGuyHR (Jan 23, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> I don't want to get involved in your all pissing contests, but I do know Locust is pretty heavy, only being out done by some Oaks and Euc's. I know this from experience and it can be verified by looking at a green log weight chart.
> It's nice being young, and full of piss and vinegar, nothing wrong with that, but there is more to arborculture then just crane removals.
> Good luck out there and be safe.



Yea, buzz is a little off, should check his source. According to an old "Commercial Timbers of the United States" book I have, specific gravity is .60 dry wt. for honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos), so multiplying that by the weight of a cubic foot of water (62.4 lbs) gives you 37.44 lbs per cubic ft. dry wt. My crane guy didn't want to go over 10,000 at 60 ft, and he said the heaviest pic was about 6,000 for a log about 30 in thick by 16 ft. (and clean, without limb stubs). That's about 50% over the dry wt based on volume. The sapwood on the tree (as you can see in the pics) was quite narrow, so water must have seeped into the wood through the wind-shake cracks as well. Also, the "spider" of limb stubs at the tops must have weighed a lot on the other logs.

My climber (and the crane operator) had done lots of crane jobs, and they both agreed that cutting long logs with the tops attached was a bad idea, because to get a big enough log to avoid an end over would have been too heavy for comfort. I guess you had to be there.


----------



## dbl612 (Jan 23, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Yea, buzz is a little off, should check his source. According to an old "Commercial Timbers of the United States" book I have, specific gravity is .60 dry wt. for honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos), so multiplying that by the weight of a cubic foot of water (62.4 lbs) gives you 37.44 lbs per cubic ft. dry wt. My crane guy didn't want to go over 10,000 at 60 ft, and he said the heaviest pic was about 6,000 for a log about 30 in thick by 16 ft. (and clean, without limb stubs). That's about 50% over the dry wt based on volume. The sapwood on the tree (as you can see in the pics) was quite narrow, so water must have seeped into the wood through the wind-shake cracks as well. Also, the "spider" of limb stubs at the tops must have weighed a lot on the other logs.
> 
> My climber (and the crane operator) had done lots of crane jobs, and they both agreed that cutting long logs with the tops attached was a bad idea, because to get a big enough log to avoid an end over would have been too heavy for comfort. I guess you had to be there.



your op is on target with his ratings. that 70t that was shown easily would handle 10k @ 60r with max boom. the computer limits his pick capacity to 10k at even closer radius because of single part line rating of 3/4 in cable on that rig. must of been a lot of travel and setup time, a tree that size with a machine that size, and a drop zone at base-4 hrs tops with ground people awake.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 23, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> your op is on target with his ratings. that 70t that was shown easily would handle 10k @ 60r with max boom. the computer limits his pick capacity to 10k at even closer radius because of single part line rating of 3/4 in cable on that rig. must of been a lot of travel and setup time, a tree that size with a machine that size, and a drop zone at base-4 hrs tops with ground people awake.



You are right about t he crane handling the weight. I am sure the OP wasn't real happy, don't know if it was the climber's fault or what, but one log did quite the shimmy coming off the stub. 
If you look closely at the video, the crane didn't move at all. It doesn't have death metal and has a talking dog, but it was made for a few bucks by a client.

Pruning Oregon's Largest Honey Locust Tree - YouTube


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## treemandan (Jan 23, 2013)

justa buzzid said:


> Once again, slappy, you dead wrong... locust is surprisingly light. keep digging that hole!!



I agree though wet butt logs get up there.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 24, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> No problem here. I just like to learn a little about the new guy running his flapper, especially when he's giving bad information. Figured the rest of the boys would get a kick out of the pics too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why I am responding one more time, I don't know. "...have some respect..." works for you,too, and much more so, given your comments about the truck, crane, tree, etc. You are making so many assumptions and dumping on so many other people's reputations you don't know that you are significantly denting your own reputation, whether you know it or not; only Buzz surpasses you.

Here's why i responded again, in addition to calling you out:

I have a clause in my more complex contracts that says if unforseen circumstances come up, more time or equipment may be needed for the job, which will be so completed _only after discussion and agreement with the home owner_ This is standard language in contracts, tree biz or otherwise. In this particular contact, it was spelled out exactly with reference to the crane. No change in price, because the clause acts as a device to amend the contact. I even gave the HO a break by not adding a margin to the crane sub cost in constructing the bid.

The alternative --- no clause to amend -- might be to finish the job by reducing safety and causing more impact, or keeping the original price and taking a big wack in profit margin. Which would you pick? 

About the safety of the remaining tree: it had around 70% of the weight taken off the roots, my recommendations include monitoring and other care, and I had other arborists and consulting arborists informally concur on my risk mitigation / historic tree preservation plan. 

Finally, what bad information from the"new guy"? I can count around a dozen distortions you have laid out -- and that's using the most neutral word choice I can muster. While my business under its name is 5 years old, I have been studying trees, formally and informally, and pruning them nearly my entire life. 

You don't have to believe any of this, of course -- I'm sure buzz doesn't . He has dismissed my credentials and experience in general, and the thought I have put into this project in particular out of hand on another thread, without bothering to check. Someone that does something differently or has a different opinion on something is not necessarily wrong, and the OP that passes judgement without bothering to find out -- to learn about someone else's decision process -- can make that OP look a tad narrow minded and willfully ignorant.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Why I am responding one more time, I don't know. "...have some respect..." works for you,too, and much more so, given your comments about the truck, crane, tree, etc. You are making so many assumptions and dumping on so many other people's reputations you don't know that you are significantly denting your own reputation, whether you know it or not; only Buzz surpasses you.
> 
> Here's why i responded again, in addition to calling you out:
> 
> ...



If you're still convinced you did that tree the best way possible with the given equipment then there really is no reason for us to continue this conversation.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

And just in case you don't think I have the experience to make that judgement call, this is a 7 and a half hour crane tree. Done with a 40 ton, at least twice the spread of yours, with a lot more obstacles to deal with.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

And there's guys on here that could have done it in half that time.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

*Yeah, but do you even crane?*


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

Seriously, HR, how many crane jobs have you done over the years? I mean crane removals, wrecked out storm nasties or otherwise substantial trees?






The above crane is owned by a member here, who's words you brushed off as unimportant. You really think you can tell THAT guy his business?


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## Pelorus (Jan 24, 2013)

"It wasn't a take down -- the tree is still there and is expected to go on growing -- just gave it a haircut from 94 f. to 20 -30 ft."

Notwithstanding the Great Crane Debate, "...this is a triumph for compartmentalization; but is this what the tree should look like?" Shigo...who believed that "trees should look like trees, and when their time comes, they should die with dignity".

It is like an old blind three-legged diabetic dog being kept around for sentimental reasons, and I don't think it is "arboriculture" to leave work like that. It is no different (to me) than agreeing to do some tree masonry work, or install drain tubes to dry out bacterial wetwood. It's all bad practice.

Guess the bottom line here re. the OP, is that a new chew toy got gnawed on, until it was time to get quarantined on an island away from his tormentors.


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

I didn't read this whole windy thread, but just curious, who's idea was it to leave the big wood standing, the customer's, or the new guy's? It does look like a crappy job. How much did this run the customer?


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## Pelorus (Jan 24, 2013)

Am doubtful that the ISA is gonna put the photo of the current tree in promotional brochure: "Why You Should Hire an ISA Certified Arborist".


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Am doubtful that the ISA is gonna put the photo of the current tree in promotional brochure: "Why You Should Hire an ISA Certified Arborist".



Well, one could certainly say a large percentage of the hazard was "mitigated". lol. certainly reduced the "sail" significantly!!


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

Kudos for the most grand hatrack of all time, though!! 

I guess it all comes down to how one presents different pruning "stategies".. lol.


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## Bermie (Jan 24, 2013)

Well buzid, I don't have any balls so you can't kick me in them...

FS on a shackle above the ball, that was a TCIA recommended strategy, I find it works quite nicely thank-you, far more secure than being in the hook that has a dodgy snap on it. I'm sure there are some modifications that could be implemented, there always are.
As for the pick, yes I could have cut down a bit further to avoid the lean it took once separated...there was almost no swing when it came off, the crane operator is a genious, he compensated for my not-so-perfect cut.
The other two trees were done without stripping them, just tie, cut and pick, the first one, well you had to be there to see the branching structure and balance...
Suffice to say all three trees done, gone, all but two piles of branches to chip by 3pm...and that included a decent lunch break.

The two crane truck pick...doesn't show the traffic underneath.


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## dbl612 (Jan 24, 2013)

Bermie said:


> Well buzid, I don't have any balls so you can't kick me in them...
> 
> FS on a shackle above the ball, that was a TCIA recommended strategy, I find it works quite nicely thank-you, far more secure than being in the hook that has a dodgy snap on it. I'm sure there are some modifications that could be implemented, there always are.
> As for the pick, yes I could have cut down a bit further to avoid the lean it took once separated...there was almost no swing when it came off, the crane operator is a genious, he compensated for my not-so-perfect cut.
> ...



would be interesting to see how you put a FS on a shackle above the ball. all i see is two cranes reeved with 4 parts of line. the block prob weighs as much as that chuck thats hanging off it. heaven forbid the op would have to get something out of the way in a hurry.


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## deevo (Jan 24, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> And there's guys on here that could have done it in half that time.



Blakes, you could of just used my name, I wouldn't of minded! lol!:msp_tongue:


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

deevo said:


> Blakes, you could of just used my name, I wouldn't of minded! lol!:msp_tongue:



This has been a great thread. It has helped confirm my suspicions that both women, and even gay men can remove trees with a crane. Just saying. (Sorry)


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## deevo (Jan 24, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> This has been a great thread. It has helped confirm my suspicions that both women, and even gay men can remove trees with a crane. Just saying. (Sorry)



Tree pig you sub you out as a detective, man your good! So where's your pics?:msp_tongue::msp_wink:


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

deevo said:


> Blakes, you could of just used my name, I wouldn't of minded! lol!:msp_tongue:



I said "half", not "twice", Devon...must not translate too well to Canadian, eh...metric system and whatnot I suppose... That was two years ago though, I bet with the right CO, i could knock her out in about five hours today.


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## Blakesmaster (Jan 24, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> This has been a great thread. It has helped confirm my suspicions that both women, and even gay men can remove trees with a crane. Just saying. (Sorry)



We don't all have the luxury of taking a ladylike 3 days per oak down here...:msp_razz:


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## deevo (Jan 24, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> I said "half", not "twice", Devon...must not translate too well to Canadian, eh...metric system and whatnot I suppose... That was two years ago though, I bet with the right CO, i could knock her out in about five hours today.



Oh yeah it's been cold here this week you know! Yeah I know I am no Buzzid or whatever yet, but we can make things happen pretty quick with a crane as well! I have only been using cranes for 3 years but you for sure get faster and faster, and more comfortable each and every time! No doubt about that!:msp_wink:


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

Man this looks hideous , I mean it looks like someone got hurt , or everyone left for lunch , I mean that's some poor work there , you couldn't even stack the wood along the woods or something


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## deevo (Jan 24, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Man this looks hideous , I mean it looks like someone got hurt , or everyone left for lunch , I mean that's some poor work there , you couldn't even stack the wood along the woods or something



Coulda just murphed it towards where that pic was taken!:msp_w00t::msp_w00t::msp_w00t:


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> We don't all have the luxury of taking a ladylike 3 days per oak down here...:msp_razz:



Lol, #####. Haven't you ever prolonged something because you found it enjoyable? Besides, 2:30 beer thirty comes pretty quick! :msp_laugh:

Punk..


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

And I've yet to see any of you ####s show me something even mildly impressive with a ROPE!! Reg would be the one exception. Just saying. :msp_sneaky:


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

Blakesmaster said:


> We don't all have the luxury of taking a ladylike 3 days per oak down here...:msp_razz:



That's some funny #### !!!


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

Oh boy... let's all hold our breath for the iron workin' pics now...


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Oh boy... let's all hold our breath for the iron workin' pics now...


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## Bermie (Jan 24, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> would be interesting to see how you put a FS on a shackle above the ball. all i see is two cranes reeved with 4 parts of line. the block prob weighs as much as that chuck thats hanging off it. heaven forbid the op would have to get something out of the way in a hurry.



Spotted! The two crane truck pic, I didn't use a shackle, can't do it on that setup...just put FS in the hook, zip tied it so it wouldn't flip out iff tension was taken off it, and the hook had a working snap...
When I look back on it, there were several other ways to do it, but I was subbing, and there was morning rush hr traffic, safety margins were indeed very high on that job...probably a bit overkill to be honest.

Look, not all comments and suggestions are applicable to other situations, just sharing what I've done, I'm glad I'm female, I don't get sucked into the testosterone laden ego-centric flame wars...I have nothing to prove, job's done, I'm paid, tata, see you later.


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## Pelorus (Jan 24, 2013)

View attachment 275348


tree MDS said:


> And I've yet to see any of you ####s show me something even mildly impressive with a ROPE!! Reg would be the one exception. Just saying. :msp_sneaky:



View attachment 275345
View attachment 275346


No crane or bucket. 3 groundies; only one of whom (my lad) could tie knots or run port-a-wrap. No Hobbs or GRCS on job. Son was 14 yrs old at the time - he ran the porty. Other guys were a logger who considers himself a tree guy, and his older buddy who was nice, but couldn't run ropes or a saw. It was the logger's job, and I was just contract climbing on this job.
Dismantled three white oaks in that backyard, and it took me the better part of 3 days to get them on the ground.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> View attachment 275348
> 
> 
> View attachment 275345
> ...



You did it 2/3 faster then MDS took him 3 days for one .


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## Pelorus (Jan 24, 2013)

yeah, but he prolly didn't have a crack team of trained professionals like I had. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> You did it 2/3 faster then MDS took him 3 days for one .



Umm.. rigging pics, Porks?? You know the story behind me milking that tree so give it up. You are annoying though, I'll give you that!! Everyone has their calling. I guess yours just wasn't iron work or trees. Lol.


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## Pelorus (Jan 24, 2013)

Have heard that a couple of trained ground buzzids can make a big difference in production.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Umm.. rigging pics, Porks?? You know the story behind me milking that tree so give it up. You are annoying though, I'll give you that!! Everyone has their calling. I guess yours just wasn't iron work or trees. Lol.



Yea keep telling yourself that !


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

pelorus said:


> yeah, but he prolly didn't have a crack team of trained professionals like i had. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



lol


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea keep telling yourself that !



No, I'm sure you're quite fearsome with the trees... when yer not hitting yourself in the head and stumbling around, that is. LOL!! :msp_smile:


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## tree MDS (Jan 24, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> View attachment 275348
> 
> 
> View attachment 275345
> ...



Never seen anyone choose a giant knot like that as a good spot to make a notch. Learn something everyday I guess. Nice job!


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## Pelorus (Jan 24, 2013)

Coming down another 3 feet (to miss the knot's buddy on the other side) might have been a little sporty. Was no problem for the Stihl. No Hushy saws for me.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 24, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> No, I'm sure you're quite fearsome with the trees... when yer not hitting yourself in the head and stumbling around, that is. LOL!! :msp_smile:


Ill give ya that , I am a clumsy mother ####er LOL that's one draw back of weighing above 270lbs we bump into things and things bump into us LOL


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## MarquisTree (Jan 24, 2013)

....so Justin wasted no time making an ass of himself. It's too bad because he does have a ton of real world experience and could add to the conversation. Unfortunately he can't or won't do it with out adding all the "F-yous" in every post...
I haven't read all of this thread but what I have, I am really surprised that there is so much debate over "riding the load".
I assumed every climber who worked off a crane "had this in their tool box".
It might not be for every pick but there are many situations where it is the safest option. 
What's the big deal? This is a practice that crane removal companies have been using for years (when its the safest method) we all took a sigh of relief when the ANSI regs caught up with common sense by recognizing the safety advantages to this method.
I want to know, for all the people who chimed in and say in one way or the other "I would never ride a pick " 
What do you think could happen?
What is your concern for injury?


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 24, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> ....so Justin wasted no time making an ass of himself. It's too bad because he does have a ton of real world experience and could add to the conversation. Unfortunately he can't or won't do it with out adding all the "F-yous" in every post...
> I haven't read all of this thread but what I have, I am really surprised that there is so much debate over "riding the load".
> I assumed every climber who worked off a crane "had this in their tool box".
> It might not be for every pick but there are many situations where it is the safest option.
> ...



He maybe a good employee for you, but he should stay away from real tree guy's. 
Tell him to join a crane forum,,,
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't know Jack about crane work, very little exp with it, but I am going to get some real quick. Taking out 9 decent sized Canary Island Pines over a house in a couple weeks. Should be cool and a learning experience for me. My GF has quite a bit of time on this and the crane operator has alot of exp, so it will be or should be, a quick one. I agree with MDS, there is no doubt that cranes make money, I still think advanced rigging is cooler. Guess that is why I don't have much exp, when other guys would say they need a crane, I wouldn't, I never ran into a tree that couldn't be rigged out (that was safe to climb)

Yeah, Justin just cant help himself can he! Too bad, lots of knowledge, way more ego.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 25, 2013)

I miss em already ! Just saying , he is fun !


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## tree MDS (Jan 25, 2013)

Did I miss something, or was this just a general banning?

That sucks..


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## imagineero (Jan 25, 2013)

I find myself placing more value on my life, and less value on clients property as the years go by. I'm always amazed at how far some guys will go in terms of risking their own life and their health to avoid damaging something that is worth so little. I've seen guys do things I wouldn't dream of doing, to avoid damage to something as exciting as a garden shed, in pursuit of $600. It seems its not until after someone is killed or injured that reality kicks in and we ask 'why the hell did he do that?'

The weirdest thing is that HO's don't seem to take it too bad at all when you lay it right out. I went and quoted a big nasty euc last year, was well rotted out and full of bees. It was only about 100' tall, but it was spready, and it was an edge tree suppressed by others so it was a heavy leaner. No crane access, and no drop zone. The rotted out hollow section was right at the fulcrum, about half way up. Way too risky to rig off. There was a tennis court right under it.

Few years ago I probably would have climbed it, and rigged off it. Not now. I laid it out for the HO, told him the risks involved, and how it might go fine, or might kill whoever climbed it. Told him I wasn't the cheapest, and the only way I would do it is to climb it and just hammer the (major!) limbs straight into the tennis court, which would do a whole lot of damage. Told him he could probably find someone who would climb it and rig off it, which would save him a lot of money on tennis court repairs.

Few weeks later the guy calls me and tells me to smash it down and he'll rebuild his court. It's surprising how many people do have a conscience when you give them the facts.

My job is already dangerous as hell, I'm not riding the pick down. Get a helicopter in if the target is worth enough, or a second crane, or just smash it or whatever. Or just move on to the next job, and keep living a little longer. I've got enough dead or permanently inured buddies. 

Shaun


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## dbl612 (Jan 25, 2013)

*options*

theres been a lot of discussion regarding the original topic, from a wide range of experience levels. it is a recognized and accepted procedure when the situation warrants it-offical tcia and ansi (not my decision). we have to do it frequently. as i said before only the crane and the climbers gear is rated, not the tree. you are only limited by experience and technology. this industry is totally driven by technology, and the use of same along with experience can make this work challenging but also safe. we need to use ALL the tools and tech at our disposal. as the old saying goes-"there's old tree guys and bold tree guys, but there's no old bold tree guys". one last point, it interesting we haven't heard from mike poor or mattfr because they have all the options-run the crane,pretension, make the cut, ride the load or not, climber and crane op all in one. tom.


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## imagineero (Jan 25, 2013)

The weakest link in the system is always gong to be the climber. Even my saw strop is rated for more load than I'd ever care to take. I don't want to ever put myself in the path of any load greater than I might pick up with one arm. Once you get into the load bearing ability of bull ropes, let alone cranes, you don't ever want to have yourself anywhere near the load.

It's all too easy in an industry like ours, where you are constantly exposed to high risk, to get a little casual about it and forget the dangers involved in simply carrying out basic every day stuff. We are exposed to that sort of risk every single day, and the truth is you aren't always going to be on the ball. You can't bring your 'A' game to work every moment of every day. You're going to make mistakes, that's for sure. So don't go loading the dice against yourself. Always minimise the risk, assess the situation, and choose the safest option.

It's easy to get excited by the challenge of technically difficult work, and we are all excited by pushing that envelope. Be conservative. I've yet to find the piece of property that is worth increasing the risk of losing my life over.


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## MarquisTree (Jan 25, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> He maybe a good employee for you, but he should stay away from real tree guy's.
> Tell him to join a crane forum,,,
> Jeff



Real tree men? 
Justin's tree skills or work ethic have never been his problem.
Justin absolutely a real tree man. Unfortunately he is also a complete buzzard online. He is much easier to get along with in real life, most guys actually enjoy working with him


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## MarquisTree (Jan 25, 2013)

imagineero said:


> The weakest link in the system is always gong to be the climber. Even my saw strop is rated for more load than I'd ever care to take. I don't want to ever put myself in the path of any load greater than I might pick up with one arm. Once you get into the load bearing ability of bull ropes, let alone cranes, you don't ever want to have yourself anywhere near the load.
> 
> It's all too easy in an industry like ours, where you are constantly exposed to high risk, to get a little casual about it and forget the dangers involved in simply carrying out basic every day stuff. We are exposed to that sort of risk every single day, and the truth is you aren't always going to be on the ball. You can't bring your 'A' game to work every moment of every day. You're going to make mistakes, that's for sure. So don't go loading the dice against yourself. Always minimise the risk, assess the situation, and choose the safest option.
> 
> It's easy to get excited by the challenge of technically difficult work, and we are all excited by pushing that envelope. Be conservative. I've yet to find the piece of property that is worth increasing the risk of losing my life over.




What specific risks do you feel your exposed to by remaining attached to the ball that your not already exposed to durring normal crane removals?


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## MarquisTree (Jan 25, 2013)

And this whole second crane nonsense is a joke. Its hard enough to find room to set one crane up on mosts sites.
I haven't heard any discussion about the increased risk.to the climber by having two cranes working so close to each other


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## tree MDS (Jan 25, 2013)

Does anyone have any links to video of this practice? As someone with relatively limited crane experience, I'd love to see this in action... kinda hard to envision.


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## imagineero (Jan 25, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> What specific risks do you feel your exposed to by remaining attached to the ball that your not already exposed to durring normal crane removals?



It's a case by case scenario, and the specific dangers would depend on the specifics of the tree involved, and the individual pick, as well as the carrying capacity of the crane. Without getting into that, all we can talk about is generalities.

As a climber, part of me loves crane work. It's quick, technically pretty simple even with complex rigging scenarios, and just generally less work. You make good money, with less effort. But another part of me hates crane jobs. You're putting a whole bunch of eggs in the one basket. 

If I'm stayng in the tree, I have some control over what is going to happen, to me. I follow the practice (for better or worse) of keeping my head below the cut, so if the pick kicks or inverts I'm not going to wear it. I can also position myself in the tree so that I'm well shielded in the case of an inversion. I've been swatted, as I'm sure anyone who does crane work has been. But they've been fly swats. I also try where possible to give myself an escape route. I use 2 tie in points - flip line, and rope. I try to set it up so if If I see something going wrong with the pick, I can get the hell out of there, real fast. If I'm riding the pick, I can't get off that ride, even if I want to.

Since I don't own a crane, I have less control than someone who does. The whole issue of how the rigging is going to be set, and where, how big the pick is going to be etc, is a negotiated aspect of the work when you sub out the crane part. Generally, everyone (crane op and climber) has the right to say 'no', but as the climber you don't really have creative control. Maybe that's a good thing. Sometimes the crane op doesnt want to take the pick as I want it taken. What do you do then? His crane is on the line, but my life is on the line. 

The whole justification for riding the pick, is that it's safer than staying in the tree. But my take, is that not riding the pick is always safer than riding the pick. #### riding the pick. If the tree is too dangerous to be in, then just slam it down and smash up whatever needs to be smashed. Or leave it alone and let it fall over whenever it does. Or use a cherry picker, or anything else. Get two guys in a man basket hung off that crane, and take it out piece by piece. I've used all those options at diferent times, and those are all safer options that riding the pick. Why add risk to an already risky job? To make it a little faster/cheaper?

If one of your climbers is one day killed riding a pick down, after doing a hundred jobs, or a thousand, would you say it was worth it? Don't stack the odds up against yourself any more than need be.

Do you want to be one of the alaskan crab guys who went just that bit further, for a few dollars more, and lost your whole crew? How much of a premium do you add to a crane job where the climber needs to ride the pick (if any), and do you share any of that premium with the climber above and beyond what you would normally pay them? If so, how much?

Shaun


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 25, 2013)

imagineero said:


> It's a case by case scenario, and the specific dangers would depend on the specifics of the tree involved, and the individual pick, as well as the carrying capacity of the crane. Without getting into that, all we can talk about is generalities.
> 
> As a climber, part of me loves crane work. It's quick, technically pretty simple even with complex rigging scenarios, and just generally less work. You make good money, with less effort. But another part of me hates crane jobs. You're putting a whole bunch of eggs in the one basket.
> 
> ...



I wish you had posted this earlier in the thread. Wasted a few hrs of my time trying to explain my iffy locust crane job to a couple guys who knew better and passed all kinds of judgements on scanty or made-up observations, salted with grandstanding that had nothing to do with the job I put out there for discussion,

Thank-you. 

I was gonna attach a document to hash over things some more (so as not to clutter up this thread), but now you have saved me the trouble.

For all those who attacked me (instead of critiquing my work) , or went off based on wrong info, take a look at this vid clip; seems appropriate regarding the issue of going off half-cocked.

Monty Python & the Holy Grail - Who Killed Who - YouTube

One more thing, I get it that in some professions, like logging, tree work, crane work, reputation is earned by demonstrated ability -- certs and degrees, allegations and paper mean little. And claims made on internet forums are well below those. So why do so many people posting on websites feel the need to try and prove their reputations and attack others, when the effort essentially achieves nothing? Just a question. 

And one more thing:

Work safe--- I could be the consultant that investigates the tree that killed you.


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## dbl612 (Jan 25, 2013)

imagineero said:


> It's a case by case scenario, and the specific dangers would depend on the specifics of the tree involved, and the individual pick, as well as the carrying capacity of the crane. Without getting into that, all we can talk about is generalities.
> 
> As a climber, part of me loves crane work. It's quick, technically pretty simple even with complex rigging scenarios, and just generally less work. You make good money, with less effort. But another part of me hates crane jobs. You're putting a whole bunch of eggs in the one basket.
> 
> ...


the climber has all the control he wants. he is setting the rigging and he is making the cuts. the crane op isn't running the show he is working with the climber. you just said you like complicated rigging. how difficult is it to set the chokes in the proper location so the pick goes where you want? i work with climbers who do it every day effortlessly. i also work with climbers who still think there topping trees and letting gravity take affect. the climbers have the most control of the situation. if they are not confident in their abilities work with someone who does or leave the crane removals to the competent. we all learned our craft from someone else and stole the knowledge. don't fight technology or keep using axes and handsaws.


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## tree MDS (Jan 25, 2013)

dbl612 said:


> the climber has all the control he wants. he is setting the rigging and he is making the cuts. the crane op isn't running the show he is working with the climber. you just said you like complicated rigging. how difficult is it to set the chokes in the proper location so the pick goes where you want? i work with climbers who do it every day effortlessly. i also work with climbers who still think there topping trees and letting gravity take affect. the climbers have the most control of the situation. if they are not confident in their abilities work with someone who does or leave the crane removals to the competent. we all learned our craft from someone else and stole the knowledge. don't fight technology or keep using axes and handsaws.



Um, this is the same guy that once suggested having his groundies use cordless circular saws to cut up brush.. I think there was something about handsaws and porridge in there too. So realistically, you might not be all that far off base. just saying.


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## MarquisTree (Jan 25, 2013)

Shawn,
I agree with a lot of what you said. Your preferred tie in method giving yourself an escape route is great. 
There are many situations where the climber doesn't have ideal tie in locations. 
Now this is where may have to agree to disagree.
as a climber and as an operator, in situations where we have decided to remain attached to the crane for the entire cut. I feel that climber has great freedom of movement and usually has their feet on the ground and detached from the crane in a matter of seconds after finishing the cut. 
There is whole method to this technique. Its very different then how you would go about making a normal pick. 
Myself and every climber I have ever worked with feel that in the right situations this method has some great safety advantages when used properly


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## dbl612 (Jan 25, 2013)

*options part 2*

not to throw another option into the mix, we have had scenarios where we rigged the crane with two live lines because we had to change how the very large pieces had to be orientated to get the out of a tight spot or manuever them away from obstacles. climber made cut, got out of the way, operator handled two lines on the load. only limitation is knowledge, experience, and co-operation between climber and op.=safety and production. are we in this for practice or production and making money?


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 25, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Did I miss something, or was this just a general banning?
> 
> That sucks..



That's why I said theres a snitchalatpus !


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## imagineero (Jan 28, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Um, this is the same guy that once suggested having his groundies use cordless circular saws to cut up brush.. I think there was something about handsaws and porridge in there too. So realistically, you might not be all that far off base. just saying.



Well mate, I suggested starting new groundies off using cordless reciprocating saws as being a safe way of starting new groundies with no chainsaw experience, so I could at least see if they get the concept of tension and compression. It worked out pretty well in the end, and it's not a bad way to start training new recruits if you have to be up in the tree and not on the ground showing guys how it's done. Even the specially gifted have a hard time hurting themselves with a reciprocating saw which they are holding with both hands.

I returned the favor of looking back over threads you've started, which only took a few minutes since it averaged out to 2 or 3 threads a year. Most of your threads seem to involve getting ripped off on cheap bucket trucks because you cant climb, looking for new groundies at short notice because you cant get anyone to work for you, wondering how a tree is planted, paranoia over whether your competition is stealing your lawn signs, and wondering if it's still fashionable to use a polesaw in a tree. Are you just becoming a dinosaur? Yes you are. Nice work ;-)

But I see you've completely failed to address any of the points i made in regards to riding the pick down, so none of that really matters... 

is this like road rage?

Shaun


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## tree MDS (Jan 28, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Well mate, I suggested starting new groundies off using cordless reciprocating saws as being a safe way of starting new groundies with no chainsaw experience, so I could at least see if they get the concept of tension and compression. It worked out pretty well in the end, and it's not a bad way to start training new recruits if you have to be up in the tree and not on the ground showing guys how it's done. Even the specially gifted have a hard time hurting themselves with a reciprocating saw which they are holding with both hands.
> 
> I returned the favor of looking back over threads you've started, which only took a few minutes since it averaged out to 2 or 3 threads a year. Most of your threads seem to involve getting ripped off on cheap bucket trucks because you cant climb, looking for new groundies at short notice because you cant get anyone to work for you, wondering how a tree is planted, paranoia over whether your competition is stealing your lawn signs, and wondering if it's still fashionable to use a polesaw in a tree. Are you just becoming a dinosaur? Yes you are. Nice work ;-)
> 
> ...



Crikey!! :msp_scared:

I was only trying to rile you up a little, mate!! I see it worked. lol.

How many days did you work on composing that rebuttal?? didn't mean for you to lose any sleep, or anything!!


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 28, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Crikey!! :msp_scared:
> 
> I was only trying to rile you up a little, mate!! I see it worked. lol.
> 
> How many days did you work on composing that rebuttal?? didn't mean for you to lose any sleep, or anything!!



If you were A shrimp , that mother ####er just threw you on the Barby ! Man ouch that was a tough read LOL ! He did miss the completely obvious 3000 or so posts that you made drunk , described illicit drug use , many sleepless nights of drinking til dawn the whole 3 month chipper fiasco , and the famous goat humping incident of 2010 ! Or the whole Matt holey belly thing!


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## tree MDS (Jan 28, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> If you were A shrimp , that mother ####er just threw you on the Barby ! Man ouch that was a tough read LOL ! He did miss the completely obvious 3000 or so posts that you made drunk , described illicit drug use , many sleepless nights of drinking til dawn the whole 3 month chipper fiasco , and the famous goat humping incident of 2010 ! Or the whole Matt holey belly thing!



Sharpen much?


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 28, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> Sharpen much?



God I can read you like a book , I knew a fat joke or a dull saw joke was coming :msp_w00t:


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## imagineero (Jan 29, 2013)

Awwwww man, Suckered again!

Thank #### it finally stopped raining today so I could get some work done. The cabin fever was getting so bad I was starting to take it out on inanimate objects around the house. Stupid coffee cup!

Shaun


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## treemandan (Jan 29, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> ....so Justin wasted no time making an ass of himself. It's too bad because he does have a ton of real world experience and could add to the conversation. Unfortunately he can't or won't do it with out adding all the "F-yous" in every post...
> I haven't read all of this thread but what I have, I am really surprised that there is so much debate over "riding the load".
> I assumed every climber who worked off a crane "had this in their tool box".
> It might not be for every pick but there are many situations where it is the safest option.
> ...



Well this is Assboristdotcom. But man what do you feed that guy anyway?

I have never been in a situation where I had to ride the load. Do you have any pics or video?


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## treemandan (Jan 29, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Man this looks hideous , I mean it looks like someone got hurt , or everyone left for lunch , I mean that's some poor work there , you couldn't even stack the wood along the woods or something



Hideous is as hideous does. Now come on guys, if that's all yer getting paid to do then that's all yer gonna do. And who ever said that was the finished product? Maybe it is maybe it isn't but still...


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 29, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Hideous is as hideous does. Now come on guys, if that's all yer getting paid to do then that's all yer gonna do. And who ever said that was the finished product? Maybe it is maybe it isn't but still...



Thanks for casting some doubt on the doubters. I was made to feel like meat on the hook, literally; maybe jerked up and down over and over while a couple guys here laughed, saying: "Look look! He's still moving a little! Haw Haw!

Since you seem to have a question in there:

The homeowner wanted the wood right where it is (closer to his firewood pile -- surely people here can understand that)

I had several consulting arborists agree with my risk mitigation strategy. Guys who pay for their own E & O insurance (my premium without a claim is $1,900 a yr, one overhead cost among many that I pay.

Maybe that was my problem "risk mitigation strategy" has way too many syllables compared to "kill the tree"'; one guy said "4 hrs tops", right, without having seen the tree, the site, or knowing what was in my contract or why.

The other allegations are too numerous to point out, but were all based on wrong assumptions or actually contradicted by the thread itself. Most telling was one guy saying that I had blown off the opinion of a more knowledgeable guy regarding crane work, when I hadn't -- in fact this guy offered advice but never gave it, having more fun bullying an d generally making a fool of himself. Bunch of other guys piled on obviously not having read the thread, just to take the backs of the ringleaders. 'Nuff said.

:msp_smile::msp_smile:Smile everyone, this is Arboristsite after all!:msp_smile::msp_smile:


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## Pelorus (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm just wondering why you left the hideous hazardous hatrack?


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## MarquisTree (Jan 29, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Well this is Assboristdotcom. But man what do you feed that guy anyway?
> 
> I have never been in a situation where I had to ride the load. Do you have any pics or video?



"Have to ride a pick"...
You don't really have to do anything.
we don't have to use bucket trucks. But we do because in many cases they can be safer and more productive then climbing.

We don't have to use cranes. Climbers got trees down before anyone in our industry was using cranes, but they make our jobs much safer and more productive.

We don't have to use blocks and slings to butt hang wood, u can do the same thing with just rope....

My point being, "riding the load" was condemned years ago as the ultimate crane sin. At the time of condemnation friction cranes were still the norm and guys "riding the load" were just standing on an I beam or pallet with no fall protection or attachment at all.
With older friction cranes it was possible to free fall the winch, most lacked any of the fail safe features the modern hyd winches have today. 
When you think about why "riding the pick" became such a sin you start to see how different what tree climbers do is.
It's just another tool in the box for safe tree removal.

If I see a good opportunity I will shoot some video.
I am going to have the camera out a lot, we just bought a LTM-1090-4.1 it should make for some good video. Who knows it might just flush out TV we all know how flustered pictures of shinny equipment makes him


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 29, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I'm just wondering why you left the hideous hazardous hatrack?



I guess its "in the eye of the beholder". Do you toss Granny in the Soylent Green vat when she loses a leg to diabetes?

Soylent Green Clip 4 - YouTube

I like that word label -- you are a poet. The HHH was mainly left because:

The client wanted it: he said he was going to put a Hobbit door in it, plus he wanted a littl;e shade for his patio.
It preserved a living remnant of a historic tree: not officially recognized, but historic just the same.

There is some precedent for the second point; perhaps you have heard about efforts in England to preserve oaks that are 500 -1000 years old? We are spoiled here in the PNW with our big old trees; they don't have as many over there. Plus they often have written histories describing events and people around a particular tree for the entire span of time --- something we don't have. 

Neville Fay, in England, has published a bunch of stuff regarding what he calls "Veteran Trees" and their management. Long article below, worth browsing through. I saw the guy give a talk at the Tacoma PNW ISA conference in 2010. Kind of what i had in mind for the locust, but he would have had me tear the limbs off!:msp_confused:

http://www.treeworks.co.uk/downloads/7 - SurveyMethods & Arboricultural Technique.pdf


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## Pelorus (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks, TreeGuy,
I was worried that the client's bank account had been so traumatized that they could no longer afford to have the job finished...

That link you provided is interesting. This medieval paragraph kinda seared my eyeballs, lol:
"Experiments carried out at Windsor Great Park, involved winching off partially cut branches to produce rip or tear-cuts on dead trees. This was in some measure successful, but it proved impossible to predict the appropriate winch-tension necessary to effect breakage. Many trees failed at their roots before the attached branch broke off. As a result such practice has for the most part been stopped as it is deemed to be harmful..."

Shigo would also have no doubt deemed the practice to be harmful!


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## treemandan (Jan 29, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> "Have to ride a pick"...
> You don't really have to do anything.
> we don't have to use bucket trucks. But we do because in many cases they can be safer and more productive then climbing.
> 
> ...



Well thanks for the overwhelming lesson in rhetoric, now I see the light, but you didn't HAVE to do it.

Any pics of load riding would be appreciated.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 29, 2013)

I just saw it on axe men the other nite , they taking down some kind of old factory and picking roof pieces and the guy was riding the pick , not the crane the pick , I mean wow if that isn't some holy #### WTF is he doing I dunno what is ?


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 29, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Thanks, TreeGuy,
> I was worried that the client's bank account had been so traumatized that they could no longer afford to have the job finished...
> 
> That link you provided is interesting. This medieval paragraph kinda seared my eyeballs, lol:
> ...



The Brits know how to turn a phrase, don't they?

To sum up a bit from his talk and that paper (which I only browsed myself, might have read it back in 2010):

He puts together 100 year programs for these highly defective trees to encourage "retrenchment" and "regenerative growth" (I think those are the right words). To begin, light topping cuts are made, and the tree is progressively shortened as new growth arises lower down; the rooting environment is also improved. The endpoint is reached when there is a vigorous, low crown growing from a shorter trunk, supported by healthy structural roots. If these trees (some are overgrown pollards) are just "preserved", they eventually uproot or break, because they are mostly air lower down. 

Kind of the case with my honey locust. I was afraid that all the weight of the mostly solid upper trunks and crown, acting as heavy, long lever arms, could cause the tree to fail at the base or in a major fork. I hurried up the process, though; done his way, progressive topping cuts would have been made over many years.

About the tearing: he did experimentally find that more sprouting on the trunk occurred with topping "cuts" done that way, vs. clean saw cuts. Question: do you ride the pick as the leader is being torn off, or afterwards? How do you get onto the wildly swinging hook and load? I did not seriously consider this method for the locust :msp_tongue:


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## MarquisTree (Jan 29, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Well thanks for the overwhelming lesson in rhetoric, now I see the light, but you didn't HAVE to do it.
> 
> Any pics of load riding would be appreciated.



[video=youtube_share;ijJJ8O_ChJY]http://youtu.be/ijJJ8O_ChJY[/video]

This is from a few years ago, a video of one pick from a tree that had been cut more than halfway thru. There was a risk of tree failure so the key is the climber never attaches himself to the tree in any way or gets trapped in the tree. Cuts below his waist (wearing chaps) nowhere near his climbing line so there is no risk of cutting it, and rappels and gets clear of the area before the crane moves the pick. 
…let it begin


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## treemandan (Jan 29, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> [video=youtube_share;ijJJ8O_ChJY]http://youtu.be/ijJJ8O_ChJY[/video]
> 
> This is from a few years ago, a video of one pick from a tree that had been cut more than halfway thru. There was a risk of tree failure so the key is the climber never attaches himself to the tree in any way or gets trapped in the tree. Cuts below his waist (wearing chaps) nowhere near his climbing line so there is no risk of cutting it, and rappels and gets clear of the area before the crane moves the pick.
> …let it begin



Sure, I have done a few " cut and runs", that's par for the course. I tend to make a downward angled backcut to help hold the piece in place. I picked that up from some crazy old load rider who had a lot of stitches and had a personal relationship with Jesus. No for nothing but maybe this is something you could use?

You can barely see it in this pic. Sometimes I make a V cut which really doesn't allow the piece to move at all.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 29, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> [video=youtube_share;ijJJ8O_ChJY]http://youtu.be/ijJJ8O_ChJY[/video]
> 
> This is from a few years ago, a video of one pick from a tree that had been cut more than halfway thru. There was a risk of tree failure so the key is the climber never attaches himself to the tree in any way or gets trapped in the tree. Cuts below his waist (wearing chaps) nowhere near his climbing line so there is no risk of cutting it, and rappels and gets clear of the area before the crane moves the pick.
> …let it begin



Looks reasonable to me. 
Now, what I am asking below is based on my experience rigging, but with no crane experience as the climber - I am not saying what you did was the best or worst method. 
I do see myself being the climber on a crane job (perhaps soon) so i am really interested in what you did. 

Two questions (well, the first one has three parts): 

Were the choker straps tightened completely or just "almost" before you rappelled down, before you cut the piece, or did they tighten completely by the top settling a bit after the cut? 

Did one have a little more slack than the other? 

The top seemed to settle sideways somewhat after the cut. I think I would have made sure that my attachments had equal tension before I rappelled down for the cut, perhaps by using two heavy rigging ropes. Seems to me that with choker straps, they have to be set below a fork (in this situation) since you didn't completely tighten them before cutting the piece (so as not to stress the tree to much?), and you can't set them to prevent them from sliding upwards when they_ are _tightened up completely (either before you rappelled down to cut the top or before you cut it). Because of all that, you have to choke the top below the forks you have, and they may not be placed just right to equally tension the straps before you make your cut.

Of course, tying ropes takes more time, and each knot would need to have the slack run through them to be tightened completely or they could slide.

I hope you can follow what i am trying to say here...


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## MarquisTree (Jan 29, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Looks reasonable to me.
> Now, what I am asking below is based on my experience rigging, but with no crane experience as the climber - I am not saying what you did was the best or worst method.
> I do see myself being the climber on a crane job (perhaps soon) so i am really interested in what you did.
> 
> ...



Pre-tensioning… I think there are hundreds of posts about that online, don’t really want to start a whole argument about that.
But, every pick is a different, in the one in the video I put close to the weight of the pick on it, I think about 500 lbs less then it weighs. Justin left a small shelf under his cut for the butt to rest on after the cut. Without a climber buckstrapped below the cut its not critical if the pick were to settle a bit after the cut.
We put tension on the slings before the cut is made, usually while the climber is still nearby so he can easily readjust if needed.
As far as being under a fork, really depends on the species of tree and the situation, these being small picks it wasn’t critical. It was more important for them to be even. The slight shift was anticipated, and wasn’t a concern. These picks were well within our capacity, most less than 50%.
White pine bark is torn easily, its important to choke the slings tight under branches to avoid shock load when the slings slip


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 29, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Pre-tensioning… I think there are hundreds of posts about that online, don’t really want to start a whole argument about that.
> But, every pick is a different, in the one in the video I put close to the weight of the pick on it, I think about 500 lbs less then it weighs. Justin left a small shelf under his cut for the butt to rest on after the cut. Without a climber buckstrapped below the cut its not critical if the pick were to settle a bit after the cut.
> We put tension on the slings before the cut is made, usually while the climber is still nearby so he can easily readjust if needed.
> As far as being under a fork, really depends on the species of tree and the situation, these being small picks it wasn’t critical. It was more important for them to be even. The slight shift was anticipated, and wasn’t a concern. These picks were well within our capacity, most less than 50%.
> White pine bark is torn easily, its important to choke the slings tight under branches to avoid shock load when the slings slip



Thanks -- that answers it quite well. 

I would be starting out taking big logs off of beetle -killed ponderosa pine, a simpler procedure -- just put the bell (or strap) on the same side as you are. Any advice on that?

The job (if I get one or both of two proposed contracts) would be to bring in a crane and lift off logs from multiple trees in long lengths, loaded directly into a log truck or decked. Having two climbers up the tall stubs (or trees with just the tops) would speed things up, so i would finally get some crane experience. Now, I know the alternative is to cut logs brush and all and fly them away, but I think brushing them out the first day (no crane) would be quicker; the tops could be left whole, branches on, with or without the first log depending on the tree. My climber likes to use a break cut, but doesn't use wedges. I think I'll do the same but take my wedge pouch. 

Pics are from the two sites:

First

View attachment 276406
View attachment 276410


Second

View attachment 276412
View attachment 276413


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## treemandan (Jan 29, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Pre-tensioning… I think there are hundreds of posts about that online, don’t really want to start a whole argument about that.
> But, every pick is a different, in the one in the video I put close to the weight of the pick on it, I think about 500 lbs less then it weighs. Justin left a small shelf under his cut for the butt to rest on after the cut. Without a climber buckstrapped below the cut its not critical if the pick were to settle a bit after the cut.
> We put tension on the slings before the cut is made, usually while the climber is still nearby so he can easily readjust if needed.
> As far as being under a fork, really depends on the species of tree and the situation, these being small picks it wasn’t critical. It was more important for them to be even. The slight shift was anticipated, and wasn’t a concern. These picks were well within our capacity, most less than 50%.
> White pine bark is torn easily, its important to choke the slings tight under branches to avoid shock load when the slings slip



I leave the shelf on my side but tell me; what direction was the homeowner trying to drop that thing?


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## MarquisTree (Jan 30, 2013)

treemandan said:


> I leave the shelf on my side but tell me; what direction was the homeowner trying to drop that thing?



Away from the house. He must have thought big tree, needs huge wedge cut. The tree was leaning away from the house a bit. He started his wedge cut but went more then half way through the tree and luckily got his saw pinched before he could cut more


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## imagineero (Jan 30, 2013)

Is that what you'd call riding the pick down? Maybe we weren't on the same page at all. The pick stayed where it was, and you lowered off the hook. Might seem like a small difference, but that's a big difference to me.


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## MarquisTree (Jan 30, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Is that what you'd call riding the pick down? Maybe we weren't on the same page at all. The pick stayed where it was, and you lowered off the hook. Might seem like a small difference, but that's a big difference to me.




I posted the video to show how we utilize the crane as a safe tie in point in some situations. 
I don't have any videos of moving the climber and the pick together. I have done it but only in special situations. 
It works well in a lot of storm damaged trees, worked a dam collapse where the USACE put a temporary dam up, we had another round of heavy rain, that caused a bank to erode into the river and a bunch of trees fell into the river and a few on the dam. There was no safe access for the climber other then riding in and out on the crane every pick.

We have invited third party inspectors on to our jobs a few times (former osha inspectors) they said we should be fine as long as we have a well thought out safety plan and very detailed justification for our work plan. Also very important to have everything else compliant onsite. If your crew looks like a bunch of cowboy hacks with no PPE insight your not going to have any luck justifying why you needed to using a technique they don't understand


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## luckydad (Jan 30, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> "Have to ride a pick"...
> You don't really have to do anything.
> we don't have to use bucket trucks. But we do because in many cases they can be safer and more productive then climbing.
> 
> ...



Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines?? Just wondering Thanks.


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## MarquisTree (Jan 30, 2013)

luckydad said:


> Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines?? Just wondering Thanks.



The 1090-4.1 is a 2 engine machine.
Main reasons,
1. Quality and reliability 
2. Factory direct training and support
3. Grove doesn't have comparable crane its more crane then the 4100b less then a 4115
4. Availability we will have ours in less then a month. We lucked out they had one with 8x8x8 and the larger tires just coming out of the factory this month that the sale fell thru


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## MarquisTree (Jan 30, 2013)

luckydad said:


> Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines??
> 
> 
> Our Altec 38127s has been great and the service from the factory has been outstanding. We like that Liehber is set up similarly.
> When it's time to replace our boom truck we are not even going to talk to anyone else, we will just have Wayne Kenny build us another one


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## MarquisTree (Jan 30, 2013)

luckydad said:


> Mr.Marquis why the Liebherr and not a Grove?? Does yours have 2 engines?? Just wondering Thanks.



Lucky,
I am not Mr. Marquis. I am the operations manager, I do a lot of different things for the company, but I am not the owner.
Just wanted to clarify that before anyone swoops in.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 30, 2013)

Question about log weight:

What chart do you guys use?

The back of the new ANSI Z133-2012 booklet (Safety Requirements, Arboricultural Ops) has one, but the diameters only go up to 24 in. Looks like you can extrapolate off the chart for larger diameters kind of:

For ponderosa pine, the weights go up by even increments plus 2 pounds for each 2 in. increase in diameter class (11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23); seems like a good pattern that could be used to extrapolate the chart.

However, for Douglas-fir and white oak, the increases vary:

Doug-fir: 9, 11, 14, 14, 16, 18, 19
White oak: 14, 18, 20, 23, 26, 28, 31

It would be handy if the ANSI booklet included a formula for how the weights were computed so I could extrapolate the chart before the job with more confidence. A lot of the planning for the two potential jobs in p-pine I described depends on log length, because that determines what happens to the logs: hog-fuel or pellet fuel (hauled by dump truck), saw logs (log truck with min length, at least for smaller diameter logs, of 32 ft.). 

Maybe I should just figure on hauling it all to the pellet fuel mill, where they aren't as particular about length or grade. Then there would be a bit more certainty in the log sale offset part of the bid!
However, on one job the owner "wants" the logs left on site in lengths for milling, multiples of 16 plus trim, and he has some logs over 3 ft. diameter. At least the crane would be right next to the big pair of trees, and he just wants them decked on site (the second set of pics). The pine behind the house that forks at 20 ft. would be a pic OVER the house, but the logs can be laid down at the base of the tree (homeowner has own equipment to move them). I think I would let my climber with crane experience do that one. Probably time to invest in radios as well. 

ANSI chart for 10 in. through 24 in. logs, green weight per foot of length:

P-Pine: 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100, 121, 144
DF: 21, 30, 41, 55, 69, 85, 103, 122
WHOak:34, 48, 66, 86,109, 135, 163, 194

Or I could just ask the crane guy i have used what chart he has... plus next time I'll have him record the length and weight; missed my opportunity on the last two jobs (one with honey locust and one with p-pine.

These are a few pics form the last job in p-pine, with a 40 ton crane. Butt diameter was a little over 3 ft, log lengths about 15 ft. So, extrapolating off the ANSI chart, the butt log was about 5000 pounds if average diameter was 36 in. (15 ft. x 324 lbs/ft = 4860 lbs.)

View attachment 276453
View attachment 276454
View attachment 276455


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## luckydad (Jan 30, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Lucky,
> I am not Mr. Marquis. I am the operations manager, I do a lot of different things for the company, but I am not the owner.
> Just wanted to clarify that before anyone swoops in.



Sounds good. So tell me about that new toy, i mean crane.I bet its great!!Oh sorry didny read the posts above the last one.Sorry.


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## MarquisTree (Jan 30, 2013)

luckydad said:


> Sounds good. So tell me about that new toy, i mean crane.I bet its great!!Oh sorry didny read the posts above the last one.Sorry.





LTM 1090-4.1

Should be fun


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## luckydad (Jan 30, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> LTM 1090-4.1
> 
> Should be fun


Very sharp.The guy that does our crane work has 30ton to 165ton groves. They are very nice also.Ilike the yellow paint on the slide parts of the booms.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 30, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> Lucky, I am the operations manager, I do a lot of different things for the company.



Same here, an op's guy takes all the heat. 
Guy's think we got it made,, but I would rather be them and just climb and get paid. (If I was younger).
Anyway,, Hat's off to us op's guy's!!
Jeff :msp_wink:


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 30, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Same here, an op's guy takes all the heat.
> Guy's think we got it made,, but I would rather be them and just climb and get paid. (If I was younger).
> Anyway,, Hat's off to us op's guy's!!
> Jeff :msp_wink:



Yea i feel for the guy who can't peel the truck off his Ass ! LOL just saying


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 30, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea i feel for the guy who can't peel the truck off his Ass ! LOL just saying



If I did not like you, I would hate you.
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## tree MDS (Jan 30, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> If I did not like you, I would hate you.
> Jeff :msp_smile:



I got you covered.


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## treeclimber101 (Jan 30, 2013)

tree MDS said:


> I got you covered.



If I did not hate you , I would be like you ......... Thank you .......


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 30, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> If I did not hate you , I would be like you ......... Thank you .......



You know what I mean,, being a climber for many year's and then start having kid's not to mention living in So-Cal,,Gotta move up.
Actually, I love my job but it is very stressful, makes me forget my prostate.
Jeff :msp_w00t:


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## MarquisTree (Feb 1, 2013)

I feel like a thread killer... I post a few times and its crickets. Justin comes on and calls everyone gay and you get almost 300 posts and 5k views :smile2:


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## richard t (Feb 1, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> I feel like a thread killer... I post a few times and its crickets. Justin comes on and calls everyone gay and you get almost 300 posts and 5k views :smile2:





It's called drama like watching a train wreck everyone wants to see it


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> I feel like a thread killer... I post a few times and its crickets. Justin comes on and calls everyone gay and you get almost 300 posts and 5k views :smile2:



Don't be so hard on yourself. Having only a few responses to your posts is a good thing around here. I mean, well, I think you know what I mean.


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## luckydad (Feb 1, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> I feel like a thread killer... I post a few times and its crickets. Justin comes on and calls everyone gay and you get almost 300 posts and 5k views :smile2:



Just waiting on that video and some pics when that beast comes in.


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## dbl612 (Feb 1, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> I feel like a thread killer... I post a few times and its crickets. Justin comes on and calls everyone gay and you get almost 300 posts and 5k views :smile2:



your'e just not suave, sensitive and sofisticated like justin.


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## Nailsbeats (Feb 1, 2013)

The sling hooks in the vid made all the difference. I like the emphasis on production and speed with the comfort of no spikes. That's a job a guy could do day in and day out and get a big head about after a while. What's not to like?


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 1, 2013)

treemandan said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself. Having only a few responses to your posts is a good thing around here. I mean, well, I think you know what I mean.



Right, one of you make us think one way and the other the other way,,:msp_wink:
Jeff


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2013)

Nailsbeats said:


> The sling hooks in the vid made all the difference. I like the emphasis on production and speed.



I was leary about them before but think I have changed my tune. It sure is a lot easier to pre-tension multiple slings. They would not work on the slings I have but the ones I have and the ones Dirty had are actually pretty cheap.


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Right, one of you make us think one way and the other the other way,,:msp_wink:
> Jeff



Yeah but who are you talking to now?


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## Nailsbeats (Feb 1, 2013)

treemandan said:


> I was leary about them before but think I have changed my tune. It sure is a lot easier to pre-tension multiple slings. They would not work on the slings I have but the ones I have and the ones Dirty had are actually pretty cheap.



I remember he said something about them a while back, but I just kept choking the pick and setting the sling in the hook. I didn't feel the need to add them (spend the money) for the little crane work I do, but now that looks like a piss poor excuse.


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## treeclimber101 (Feb 1, 2013)

MarquisTree said:


> I feel like a thread killer... I post a few times and its crickets. Justin comes on and calls everyone gay and you get almost 300 posts and 5k views :smile2:



Yea you can #### up a ####### picnic for sure ....thanks this thread had potential , maybe we woulda been able finally to put this horse to bed , but now it will just fester here for a few months .


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## Blakesmaster (Feb 2, 2013)

treemandan said:


> I was leary about them before but think I have changed my tune. It sure is a lot easier to pre-tension multiple slings. They would not work on the slings I have but the ones I have and the ones Dirty had are actually pretty cheap.



It's the hooks that are expensive, not the slings. Can't remember if I paid $250 a piece for mine or if that was for the pair. Either way, pricey, but worth it.


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