# Falling a Big One



## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

Here are some pics of falling a "juvenile" Douglas fir. 65 yrs old, 146 feet tall, 25 yards of chips, about 2500 board feet of logs, appx 35 tons. As you will see, it took some thought to decide if we dared fall this monster. As there is only $200 coming from the customer, we had to salvage as much timber as possible to make any money. And there was no other way to do it. Crane access was not possible. Even if we could have gotten the small boom in, the tree was too heavy, and there would have been no place to set the logs. And dropping a couple 16 foot top pieces was too ballsy. Dropping a 80 foot stick without branches might have bounced. So we took it whole, after limbing it to 86 feet to clear the fence and nice shed. I guess I could have done it, but I called in a friend, who is forest service Class C Certified faller, by the man himself, D Douglas Dent! We spent close to an hour sizing it up, and getting ready. then it took close to an hour to set up the cuts, VERY VERY precisely!! The tree had a bit of favor in the right direction, but needed some careful setting up. and a breath of wind was coming up from time to time.

Ist pic, horsing around with the super wide angle lens, while wating for David to show up. It is the lens, John isn't heavy enough to bend the tree trunk!!


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

This tree would have been close to 200 feet tall if it had been growing in a forest setting. And instead of all those huge branches, it would have had at least an extra 1000 board feet. As it is, 2500 board feet is pretty amazing for a 65 yr old tree.

You can see where it has to fall...


...after we move the truck!!


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

Wood shed under the tree, and fences right beside it, with a 20 foot tall lightpost, meant we had had to carefully lower the huge, long branches.


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

Setting up the face. David made a conventional cut first, but he ate up a little more wood than I would have done. 

We wanted to make sure we were cutting into good wood, with no strange butt fibers, plus we saw some ants. Didn't want any decay to deal with. Turned out there was none, but there had been a bunch of dead branches, so i had some concern.


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

He put in the snipe, humboldt style, giving us a nice sliding surface for smooth butt action. 

I used two 8 foot poles as gunning sticks to help us determine the exact gun. We had to be near dead on perfect.

We ran a rope out to the tree truck, through a block, and to David's pick up, which we used to pull her over. It was a backup, just to make sure any bad wood fibers got broken. But it pretty much went over on its own, due to its favor in the right direction.


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

Success!!

Boy, what a relief. This was likely the ballsiest thing we've ever done. A major mistake would have taken out the shed, or worse, the house. the customer had said he didnt care if the fence got hit, but if we had hit it, the house would have been brushed pretty badly by the branches... or worse!! Never had an insurance claim, 28 yrs of tree work, and don't want to start now!!

I took video of the tree falling, so got no stills of that craziness.

It actually fell about six feet to the side of the cone I had set up for our target, but within two feet of it, length wise. I used the stick trick to guess the length and was only two feet off! When we did the final set up of the wedge, I thought we had moved the aim to close to where we wanted it. but David had said he thought it would fall off a bit. And it did, which was OK, but it sure scared me, as I was aiming the camera, and it looked like it was headed right for the shed!


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

Earlier, I called this tree a monster. well, it is one of the three largest firs I've ever done, but it is sure no monster. If it scales out to 2500 board feet, that is about 215 cubic feet. Well, the current world's largest fir has 14,060 cubic feet!!! The largest known in history, which was 393 feet tall, had about 18200 cubic feet!!

Just toothpicks, compared to the General Sherman sequoia, at 55,040 cubic feet of timber!!!


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## FSburt (Sep 7, 2002)

Hey rb you guys did a fine job given the tight spot you had to put the tree. hey is your buddy a fireman with the FS. I am a C instructor also and was certed by Dent in 97' in Ca. I have fell trees around houses before but not that tight. I agree on the twisted wood thing especially on the corners. We have digger pine (Pinus sabiniana) down here and it has very stringy wood. I was told by a local faller that you have to clip the corners to keep these trees from pulling to the side if any excess wood is left. Well I got a nice lesson in this during the winter. I had to fall one that was 30" dbh and about 120 ft tall. I had a good lay picked out and my under cut came out fine. I backcut it I thought was good but I left a little bit on one side and this tree pulled about 10 ft off its lay just from that little bit of extra wood. Only damage was a knocked over firewood pile. Now i nip the corners on these trees so that does not happpen again and I gun my backcut alot closer now. Again nice job on the tree glad it all worked out fine.


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## rbtree (Sep 7, 2002)

fsburt,

His name is David Stice, and no, he currently is a certified arborist working in the PNW. Has been a hotshot on firecrews, and has done production falling. Which I never have, but do think I would have done the job pretty much as he did.

We were going to put in side cuts below the face to prevent fiber tear, but both of us forgot. Luckily it went fine. I'm using ears, splint cuts, whatever you want to call them, most of the time now, both aerial and on the ground.

Both of us are planning on going down this spring to work with the legend, Gerry Beranek, in a huge redwood. It is a preservation job, that is slated to take one week to do!!!!

He was pretty excited to use my wimpy 15 hp 3120 XP-G though. All his white and orange toys are bone stock...poor fella....he was a bit reluctant to admit it , being a Stihl lover and all, poor confused boy...


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## Stumper (Sep 7, 2002)

Interesting pics RB. A good deal bigger than any I have felled. Why, pray tell was it only $200?!?


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## FSburt (Sep 8, 2002)

Hey RB you gotta take some pics when you go down to work with J Baranek. After reading his book about 5 times over I gave him a call and asked his permission to use some stuff out of his book for my saw training class. His book is the only one I have seen that talks about and illustrates info on tree falling and bucking that is most helpful. He is a cool guy to talk with and run ideas by. I wish I could work with him for a few weeks I bet he has wealth of info dealing with the big wood in all aspects of falling bucking and climbing. 
When did your buddy go through Dent's class and what shot crews did he wrk on. You guys up in WA and Or get to deal with some big wood. The only time I get into any lumpkins is on lightning fires when a big Red Fir gets hit and has to be felled to put the burning top out. Biggest one so far has been a Sugar Pine and Red Fir 84" at DBH. Waiting for a bigger one though. Yea I agree it sucks we can't open up our saws especially our falling saws. I am a believer in spending as little exposure time as possible under a large burning tree. Well take care and may all your trees fall where you want them to.


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## treeman82 (Sep 8, 2002)

Roger, I gotta say man. You have got some SERIOUS kahones. The size of the trees that you work on out there is simply unfathomable to me. Biggest we will get out here for the most part is 75 - 85 feet, little more maybe.


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

Stumper,

I hope to also net $1000-1300 on the wood....


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

Yep, Gerry is the man!!! His book is the best...

Don Blair ain't too shabby either, and my new friend from down under, Graeme McMahon, has the cahones of an elephant. His work on 300 foot tall eucalyptus regnans, is out of this world!

Having been a semi pro photographer for 20 years, I'm really impressed with Gerry's work. Shooting trees is not easy, dealing with sun and shade, and the forest around...

Do you have his CD-Rom, " A Tree Story"?. If not, run, dont walk to Bailey's and get a copy. or get it direct form Gerry at atreestory.com


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

Ask Ken Dunn if his modified saws can be run for forest service work. I'll bet they can. Go to the chainsaws forum and search for hot saw, kdhotsaw, muffler mod's etc. Ken is the best, his woods saws run 40-50% over stock, that is , if they are Husqvarna!!!
He and the Rupleys live near you...

I'll ask David, maybe you guys know each other!! And email you if there is a chance. he has no puter...

84" is no small tree!!!

Biggest we've done was a 9 foot (at the ground) sequoia, 80 yrs old, 24000 lb in the bottom 24 feet, and about 30 yards of chips.


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## Rob Murphy (Sep 8, 2002)

*Hows the undies?*

Awsome job well done:Eye: :Eye: I bet the nerves were a bit shakey ...?Hard to hold the camera still


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## The Big Hurt (Sep 8, 2002)

Wow....this reminded me of job I did recently but on a much smaller scale. I had to put a 70 foot Magnolia that was about 7 feet in diameter through a gate entrance that was about 8 feet wide so I only had 1/2 a foot on each side to spare. It was a ballsy decision but we were confident. I cut and Dan pulled. We just did make it through. I am yet to have a claim yet either although I have only had my biz for a little more than a year now.

Congrats on the job RB! That took some serious balls. I dont have the skill to have confidence in doing something like that. I mean if I had messed up on mine it just would have been a fence to repair but to risk a house. Balls move but what a sweet payoff!


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## Kevin (Sep 8, 2002)

Nice fall RB,
A humbolt would have saved some of that timber in the trunk though.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 8, 2002)

Jerry Beranek shared a gunning tip with me. Instead of using eight foot poles as gunning sticks use a long throwline. First go out and drive a stake at the point where the tree needs to land. Find the center of the throwline and tie a loop at the center. Put the loop over the stick. You'll use the throwline to measure the ends of the face's apex. Since you don't have measured marks on the line you could use electrical tape to make a flag or use a marker to add color to each leg of the line. Put the marks on the trunk and you'll have the apex of the face layed out.

Tom


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## Stumper (Sep 8, 2002)

I understand the money in salvage RB Just cant figure out why you didn't pick up several hundred more for the Job. Is cutting for salvage common practice in your area?-Here it's a sign of an amateur-but we don't have much to salvage except firewood.


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

Hi Tom,

As much time as we took lining this one up, I should have done that. I almost did, but would have used a 50 foot spencer tape.

stumper,

I just underestimated the size of the tree. When we felled it, everything broke up pretty much, so it took ages to chip it up, and that was only 60 feet of brush. 10 yards of chips and most of it duff that had to be forked and raked up, then shoved in to the chipper..UGGHH

I'll be lucky to get $1200 total for the job, but that will be about 60 per manhour. I can live with that...Plus we landed a $500 job next door. .and bid a $2000 one that won't happen for a while.

Now back when fir was paying $1260 per mbf, I woulda been paying the customer!!!

It all evens out. The crane and drop job next door will end up at close to $75 per manhr...On that one, I bid $3000, and the customer gets his price reduced by the log proceeds. This is a good way to go, as, if the job takes longer, but the logs end up worth more than I guessed at, I have bargaining power to get a bonus, ie, reduce the price a bit less than the log $. And with this job, I'll have at least 30% more wood than I thought, so maybe a nice bonus will be forthcoming.

I have a dump close by, so there was little down time. And never any tipping fees, as we have free dumps all over the place.

Look at this figured sequoia!! My friend removed the tree, and milled it. It could be worth $10 per board foot, if he can find a buyer.


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

Kevin.

I know. I was bummed how it turned out too. But we needed a very open face. I would have had 20 degrees less up top and 20 more under. And David is a pretty nice guy, so I didnt razz him overly much...

The bottom log will probably be cut at under 36 feet, so it will likely be a domestic sort, paying $500 per mbf, instead of about 600. So the buyer may not mind a bit of snipe left, which is how I cut it. I may still square it off. We probably lost $20 of wood, but the foot I cut off had a bit more defect than where it is cut now.

We'll also get more scale by cutting shorter, plus at 44 feet there is a 7 inch spike knot that probably should be bucked out. Likely, we'll cut a 24 and an 18.

Speaking of open faces, with a tree that tall, big and straight, assuming good fiber in the holding wood, there is no way the direction of fall would have changed much if the face had closed at 45 degrees. But, with such a small space to work with, we took no chances.. besides the whole job!!


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

Yo Rob..

almost soiled....

That's why I called in David to help me, for moral support as well as his experience. I was a lot more relaxed being the helper.

If I could post the 6 mb video, you'd see lots of camera shake! And that was before the air blast after it landed!!

Oh lord, please send us some more preservation jobs instead of all this tree killing!!
Like this historic, 6.5 foot dbh liriodendron (tulip poplar) we pruned and cabled:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 8, 2002)

Fricking, fricking awesome! Eye-gasm again. i've felt that rush through several tight squeezes, this looks real tough, especially considering how much pix seem to 'belittle' tree work, making most things look easier or less awesome! Not sure i woulda stepped up to this one, especially if there was any decay, dryness, cat facing etc.!

Nice tip on the gunning 'stix' Tom! We use 2 equal length polesaws, once 2 equal rakes. But that is clean, simple, more focused length and available! Guess any line would werk, very nice.

i like longer hinges, achieved by coming almost to the half way point of the spar diameter, so that the hinge is in the widest part of the tree. But in such tight throws, i go for a shorter hinge across the face, for narrowed , more focused gunning. i believe that is because the most leveraged pull comes from the outside corners of the hinge, so the gunning would be a tighter funnel. So to achieve that i might not go as deep, or nip the corners if i needed to go deep to undermine the center of balance more.

We try to land the leading edge (generally top flair), and stump end on ~3' high brush mattresses to absorb shock and have less chain dulling on bucking. Or sometimes on solid log to spread out focused concussion. Sometimes at other points, for easier less dulling on bucking, softer landing for log and lawn.

Those are small points on this feat though, but just using these great pix to express and develop these things i keep seeking to understand and share.

Ya gotta know i'm raving jealous of ya even meeting Mr. Dent; so many things to thank him for, and ask too!

P.S. What tuned version of the stick trick did you use, for about how much accuracy over what length drop? How much jump from stump?

Enquiring minds need to know!


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## FSburt (Sep 8, 2002)

Hey Spyder you have an interesting way of showing and explaing corner nipping. I was supposed to get recertified as a FS Chainsaw instructor in June at South Lake Tahoe Dent is the qualifing person for the Calif region class. this would have been the second time I would have met him and worked with him. Intresting dude with so much info and tips that 4 days are not enough to even scratch the surface. hey fellas see if this trick works for you when falling a big one. When you finish your undercut and have to get your pie out use a wide taper falling wedge in one of the corners to break the remaining wood. Usually don't have to use it unless you want a undercut with a gap instead of the 2 cuts coming to a pinch. G Baraneks influence in words there. 
I use corner nipping pretty regularly when dealing with plantation pine because the wood is so strong on the corners. Plus you don't have alot of room to punch these trees through the others and any pulling to one side will hang the tree up. I use deep undercuts also to speed up the tree to bust through the limbs easier. PS I am supposed to go to class again because it got cancelled due to most of the people that were supposed to be there were out fighting fire in AZ and Col in june Oh and NMex too. I'll remember to take some pictures when I go and post them. It will probably be in the spring sometime. Hey RB when you are down with GB ask him what it was like on that scaffolding of that big assed redwood he took the top out of. Is that like the record for topping a tree size wise. Take care


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 8, 2002)

Why make it more difficult? If you get your geometry right with the apex, and the ears are cut after the face is cleaned out, you will be ok.

How many who cut ears, tuck courners or whatnot, do it inline with the apex or slightly under? Better yet, I'll make a new post and poll it.


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

ears need to be under to best limit fiber pull and tear, by 1-4 inches, I'd reckon, based on size of cut.

Anyone have high speed inet, email me, I'l send some video clips. The files are 4-7 mb, as I have no software for editing or compressing...yet.

spidey, due to the 80 degree+ open face, there was no forward stump jump at all!!

and I just used a stick, sized for tip of fingers to eye length. was within 2 feet!!

and with a log that size, padding would have been obliterated.

All those branches held up the trunk enough to break it. i got a 16 foot top log, worth a whole $8, and only had to buck out about 8 feet of splintered wood.

On the 120 foot fir out front which I dropped in four pieces, branches on, we left each piece where it fell to protect the street and yard a bit. It worked, as a 25 foot, 490 bf section, with limbs on, fell from 46 feet, nosed into the street, and hit the top, which broke, but protected the street. The lawn was not very level, so we decided against using a crane for that one. It saved $100 in crane time, but we were lucky to have no damage. This tree scaled out at 1580 bf, plus the four feet i had to buck out to get to a 41 foot log, which wasted 100 board feet.

Think we shoulda left her like this, for a giant palm tree??:


uh, just say no to topping!!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 8, 2002)

It is okay to get obliterated after the job i guess, but the brush can do it before! Just something we do, that fuctions and is 'in path' of work flow! Kinda like quick recycling as far as using what is available for another turn. Any thing that gives dissiapates that much force, so how many ever pounds/tons of force you shedule that at is dissipated. Tires off the rim (especially truck tires) help in same fashion, like shock absorbing springs giving up and compressing to cushion fall. Generally if we use 'em, we put branches on top so we don't dull any chains, cutting and bucking near steel tire braid.

Just brainsstorming, especially as ya spoke of losing some log.


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## rbtree (Sep 8, 2002)

you bet, bro, just not this time would anything have helped.

I have dropped 500 board foot logs directly onto the path of a sidewalk by putting wood on either side then logs crosswise, with tires both under and over.

And devised 6 foot high layered piles, tires and brush, to drop big chunks onto already broken cement patios. Used as many as 60 tires to protect asphalt from tip ends of 50 foot logs. Often, we lash em together, a pain, to keep them sort of together to withstand repeated attacks by falling chunkies. brush also helps to keep the bounce down.

Hey, i zipped out of a tree the other day, what fun!!


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## mikey (Sep 8, 2002)

Good Job! Rb,I remember that "oh GOD please be with me"feeling I got when the back cut began on a huge sweetgum we dropped full length.I will never forget the speed and airblast of the treetop hitting the ground. You could hear it whistling as it came. Dont'ya love the feeling when it fell just right and the risky part is over.Good photos too.Keep us posted on the Beranek adventure.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 8, 2002)

*Safety First*

I hope Tim W. didn't have a heart attack already....







Maybe his notch wouldn't have been so deep if he hadn't had his eyes closed because of the chips!


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## kkirt1 (Sep 8, 2002)

I have a high speed connection and access to a spot to store the video on the web so everyone can view it... I'm dying to see it. Email me @ [email protected]


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## Woodstock (Sep 9, 2002)

Great job, men! I do think I suffer anxiety attacks just looking at the pictures! With fences, sheds, houses in the picture with each one beckoning, "Hit me!, Hit me!", a feat like this takes total mental focus from a truly skilled professional(s).... and/or guts and balls. Bet it shook the ground good when Mr. Tree met Mother Earth up close and personal for the horizontal bop. Is it true David was upset because the tree missed his personal intended mark by 9/32 of an inch and declared a do-over? Nevertheless, it was an amazingly accurate fall considering everything at stake. Did you grind the stump or level it off and leave it for a log splitting platform?


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## Nickrosis (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kkirt1 _
> *I have a high speed connection and access to a spot to store the video on the web so everyone can view it... I'm dying to see it. Email me @ [email protected] *



No! Me first!


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## The Big Hurt (Sep 9, 2002)

*SEND TO KKIRT1!*

Send the video to kkirt1! I want to be able to see this from the site he has waiting to place it.....I am sure everyone else is anxious to as well. Can you get it on to your computer. If so send it to kkirt1 so we all can see this masterful work!
Barry


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

I sent 3 to nickrosis, he had first dibs. They will be up by tommorow evening. We'll post the url then.

I have lots of vids, and will send kirt some others.

masterful?? well, euc man style, yeah.... delicate leaf licking oak man stuff...ummmm...well, maybe...


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

Nick, you trickster...

Boy, that 15 hp 3120XP-G sure makes some big chips, eh. But eye patch size???

Just wait til i have Ken Dunn really fine tune it.


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## kkirt1 (Sep 9, 2002)

Thanks for the videos - nice chain saw! 

Were you running because of a miscalculation or was that you pulling the rope 

I couldn't get them to play on MS Player or Real player but played ok on Quicktime. Here they are... enjoy!

www.abicour.com/squeezeplay.avi 

www.abicour.com/predator.avi


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## Tim Gardner (Sep 9, 2002)

Roger, nice vid! Is it turned sideways for anyone else? I was using MS Player.


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## rbtree (Sep 9, 2002)

Thanks, kkirt,

It came over before I was ready, really. with its favor in the right direction , it pretty much fell on its own. I was looking a John, who was in a pick up pulling the line, redirected from a block onthe tree truck, and saying pull!!! Wasnt needed.

Sorry, Tim. i have no editing software yet, and can do nothing, to rotate, compress, whatever....yet

I sent nick several that might be up soon, i'll post the url when I find it in my email...


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## Nickrosis (Sep 10, 2002)

I sent it to a video technician who unfortunately works from 9-5. He was very concerned that it be school-related, and I assured him that it was.

".....I wouldn't be able to do it today, but perhaps tomorrow.

Michael T. Martin
Senior Broadcast Specialist
University Telecommunications
& Distance Learning Resources
Rm. 110 CAC
1101 Reserve Street...."

In the meantime, I'm gonna search for a computer that has Quicktime Pro on it. That's a fairly inexpensive program that allows video rotation. Vegas Video, selling for $300, was a program that I toyed with for an hour only to find that the rotation was only for still images, not video.  

It should all be ready when it's ready. 

Nick


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## Nickrosis (Sep 10, 2002)

"fairly inexpensive program"

Scratch that. Quicktime PRO is dirt cheap for software - $29.99. Visit www.quicktime.com for it.

Nickrosis


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## Nickrosis (Sep 10, 2002)

For those of you with neck problems....

Here's my response. Also brightened the video - you can see the tagline now, too.

http://www.uwsp.edu/stuorg/ssa/ucn/roger.htm

Nickrosis


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## rbtree (Sep 10, 2002)

Thanks, Nick,

You are the man...!!

I'd send you my extra women... if i had any


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## Kevin (Sep 10, 2002)

Great stuff there RB and thanks Nick for letting us see it.

Roger, when are you going into VHS video production?


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## murphy4trees (Sep 11, 2002)

Looks like your camera man got the last second jitters as the tree was beginning to let go, and took a couple of steps back... thus the camera shake. A tripod would have solved that.
And thanks for sharing.
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## WOLF_RIVER_MIKE (Jun 6, 2003)

*Gotta bring this one back up*

I missed this thread the first time around. Very cool...


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 8, 2003)

Its nice to get more money on a job, but our business practice is this:

1. Can't get blood out of a turnip.

2. If the customer ain't screwing around with us, and we have the estimate time in, try not to loose the job if it can be done at a profit.

The property has the look of someone that can't afford the plain old climbing and disposal means of bidding. That can leave 2 options:

a. It never comes down - no referral, no side money.

b. It comes down - referrals following.

But any job like that is a referral point that will bring in referrals, and work from neighborhood witnesses.

That's definitely a good example of a young Douglas Fir here in the Pacific Northwest.

Its a preservation thing - not removal - but this month, we will add a photo of the largest Sitka Spruce in the USA near Seaside, Oregon to our Tree Hazard Page ( our site represents our work, and our region / Oregon Pics).

The Doug Firs my mom planted in 1965 when I was 6, now have 28" DBH trunks. Even the one I planted at age 16 is impressive.

And these are not even as big as the Giant Redwoods and Sequoias in Southern Oregon or Northern California.

The old time logging "boys" really were ingenious - as much as anyone today, to manage the Pacific Northwest "beasts".


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## Mattman (Jun 8, 2003)

You guys are insane! I have dropped many trees, but taking a chance with a garage that close by? I don't think so. But then again. I live in the most expensive real estate area in the country. 

Matt


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## SilverBlue (Nov 11, 2003)

Just thought I would recycle this thread, hey Rog, we want more videos of those big takedowns!


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## rbtree (Nov 11, 2003)

Okedok, you crazy canuck!!

But first I gotta get a new puter, this one is pithing me offffffff.

Then I need some video editing software, as most of my clips are too big for ASite.

Then, for XMAS, I want a Canon GL1, 3 ccd chip.......



hint hint.....


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## rbtree (Nov 11, 2003)

here's one!

sorry about the horizontal orientation. 
I'm not much of a video guy, and always forget that and tilt the camera as I always do with a vertical subject matter and a 35 mm camera.

the 4 mb file will pith off you dialuppers.


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## SilverBlue (Nov 11, 2003)

MMMM I heard Justdavid has a puter sellin cheap 
Love those videos keep em comming! I still have lots of unused web space if needed. JVC GRHD1 is my pick


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## Robh (Nov 11, 2003)

200 hunderd bucks for taking that kind of a risk? Man you are crazy!!!


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## wiley_p (Nov 11, 2003)

I see comments about depth of the face, nipping corners, humboldt for keeping a clean butt. So lets address these issues. This tree was pretty balanced, a light favor to the lay with some side weight. if there wasnt a house on both sides a nice 25 degree humboldt would have been fine. But the key here is control people. a wide face keeps that tree on the stump as long as possible which means very little deviation from the lay.Is 70 bf more important than the shed, house, fence or the reputation of my freinds company? As to nipping the corners that is something to be used on head leaners, and is kind of species specific, pines, spruce, ash etc. that tree broke 3.5 inches of wood clean on the hinge and it was on the stump still at about 10 degrees. Thats corridor falling boys..


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## Stumper (Nov 11, 2003)

Boys? Man, you'd call an alligator a lizard!


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## rbtree (Nov 12, 2003)

Hey coyote!!

Welcome to ASite......

Now take a bow!!!!


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## jimmyq (Nov 12, 2003)

just found this thread. good job RB, how did you make out on the lumber sale? What does a guy like the one you hired charge for the days work? Is it something that can be sub contracted out with a margin enough to skim off it or does his fee eat up the labour outright?


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## rbtree (Nov 12, 2003)

Not too well, jimmy. The tree scaled out a bit less than I hoped, plus the graders are mighty tight these days....ouch...Live and learn... I knew I shoudn't have agreed to do the tree for the wood plus such a small charge.

Shortly after we did that tree, David started working for me for several months. Later he got a bus. license, so that upped his compensation. Plus we would often switch places, when I'd help on a job of his, and provide the chipper and truck. Now he's doing the same thing for an old acquaintance of his who started a business. But there, he is the main man who provides all the technical brains, guidance, knowledge and training for the crew. I usually have a pretty good crew, capable, with some of their own equipment, and they get paid better than most, but less than someone like David is worth, due to his competence and stock of gear that is better than 95% of the tree serivces out there.

I rarely bring in occasional help, but when I do, if they are good,they'll get $15 per hr or more. I prefer to have a crew where everyone climbs and does ground work, and don't mind paying $22-35 per hr. I usually pay on a percentage basis, so everyone is rewarded if the job is done quickly.


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## SilverBlue (Nov 12, 2003)

Once again great work guys! And glad you’re here David, we took down a small spruce in a very similar situation just before Isabel hit us but it was 59 ft and 19” DBH, however it was only 4” away and parallel from the fence and less than 3 ft from the side of the house. I left a 3” hinge and had the crew pull her down, the hinge held all the way to the ground and the tree tip landed 4” away from the back yard fence (within 2” of estimation) ok not a huge tree but a tight squeeze -man wish we had a video or pics. Did it with a brand spanking new newbie as well. 

Rog, I pay better than most around here as well, but good solid help is hard to find, finding a suitable partner or contracting arborist is no easy feat, and we are still looking for good climbers. Would you or David care to commute?


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## a_lopa (Oct 25, 2004)

We need RB back at AS a true tree man,no bull???? im the best blah blah,just a guy doing his job,and doing it well.and not a rip off merchant


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## Nickrosis (Oct 25, 2004)

No kidding.  And charging $200 for a tree removal? That's bargain pricing. Loads of respect for that.


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## matthias (Oct 25, 2004)

I got the video on my hard drive but it is a winamp playlist file and I lack the know-how to change is to something AS will take.


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## SilverBlue (Oct 25, 2004)

I got it Nick


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

nice work rb makes these poplars look small 65 ft i guess , but check out the large willow in the corner a differant story tad over 70 ft and 30 ft wide..this also came over in one peice missing a wall and fence and what you cant see from the picture this tree had a severe back lean..like you i havent ever had an insurance claim and dont want ,we had an added bit of help on the pulling over of this tree a 9 ton backhoe trouble was this was a construction site and when the backhoe gave us a pull he had only a few inches to go before he would have been in a 7ft trench.think the bugger would go over  ..in the end she did just


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

here she is down


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

a shot of the trunk


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

try again


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

i expected the tree to go over dead easy with the help of the backhoe ..heres a pic of the reason she didnt go over as smooth as i wished


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

the tree must have had an internal split or shake as we call it in the uk the hinge held but the split whent rite deep into the root ball and whent with the hinge  iv'e never had this problem before still as they say you live and learn

maybe the splitting had something to do with the builders excavating around the roots ?? ...not something you would have wanted to happen with your tree RB


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## teressa green (Oct 25, 2004)

het,,,,nice arse ,,,,,pic 3


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

i dont think jason is gay ..but i'll tell him tommorrow what you think of his bod ..and i'll tell him where you can be contacted just in case


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 25, 2004)

Teressa ain't a female?


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 25, 2004)

i dont think so MB


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## SilverBlue (Oct 25, 2004)

Why are you guys dirtying up Rogers thread?


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## murphy4trees (Oct 25, 2004)

Maybe your trouble on that tree was compounded by TOO MUCH pull on that tree before the hinge was properly formed.. I had that experience earlier this summer.... I think the tree may have fallen to the lay if the hinge was fully formed before the pulling began...


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## Matt Follett (Oct 25, 2004)

I'll bet Daniel...

Was your backhoe operator pulling from the time you started the back cut?

Pulling with heavy machinery can often cause this, or worse Barber chairs... as the incredible force exerted breaks out the wood before the hinge is formed. 

If pulling with heavy force, or 'unknown heavy force' A plunge cut often works well... set the hinge, apply the force, then nip the back out... over it goes.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 26, 2004)

This better get shrunk back to 4 pages. I want to seem some posts deleted! 

Edit: we're making headway. Get this crap cleaned up off the floor! I want it all chipped up before rbtree gets home.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 26, 2004)

Rehosted:

Original AVI:
http://students.uwsp.edu/ncraw045/douglasfir.avi

Smaller files size (WMV) for Windows machines:
http://students.uwsp.edu/ncraw045/douglasfirvideo.wmv

Right click and "Save as" for best results. Opening directly may get you lost in the shuffle.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *Maybe your trouble on that tree was compounded by TOO MUCH pull on that tree before the hinge was properly formed.. I had that experience earlier this summer.... I think the tree may have fallen to the lay if the hinge was fully formed before the pulling began... *





i have been thinking the same thing..i had left quite a big hinge when i told the machine driver to pull..after reading a few of your threads Daniel i have started to realise that there is a real art and science in falling a tree just the way you want it to go and how the wood fibers react ..i guess were all still learning..what i would like is a nice open space and a few dozen big trees to fall and experiment differant falling tecniques on


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2005)

Hi Roger, very cool story and pictures. At first I thought it was BS, but now I'm a believer. If you can't trust Roger, you can't trust anybody!
John


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## ROLLACOSTA (Oct 30, 2005)

Didn't know this site was a character test !!!!


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## rbtree (Feb 6, 2007)

Here's the video that Nickrosis rotated and hosted for me.....

http://www.zippyvideos.com/1065515862010086/squeezeplay1/


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## Sprig (Feb 6, 2007)

*Thanks RB!*

For the pics, description, and vids!! And bump on the thread too, would have missed it otherwise there being soooo much to see and read at AS I feel like a kid with a box of CrackerJack sometimes hunting around for the prizes 
Nice work!  



Serge


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## RiverRat2 (Feb 6, 2007)

Really a good time that freaking big Husky is a beast Eh????
Awesome..... Great Pics, Great thread, All my respect to RB Tree, Huevos as big as all outdoors,,,, I see why Andy regards him so Highly


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## GASoline71 (Feb 6, 2007)

This has always been one of my favorite threads... and Dave is a pro faller. So is Roger. I just wish the Coyote wasn't so friggin' busy so he could post more. 

Gary


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## Timberhauler (Feb 7, 2007)

That was cool.opcorn:


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## Jim1NZ (Feb 7, 2007)

Did this the other weekend...


Climbed up, knocked the left hand side leader out then felled the rest, had to remove that leader because there was a shed close and it looked included and didnt want to take the chance of the hole heavily weighted leader splitting out if i felled it from the ground.


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## Jim1NZ (Feb 7, 2007)

Key hole cut with the 660, 30" couldnt quite reach but went never the less


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## hornett22 (Feb 8, 2007)

*RB,great work as alway!*

thanks for sharing that.

seems like using the www.cheaterjack.com would have been alot easier .:jester:


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## rbtree (Mar 25, 2007)

hornett22 said:


> thanks for sharing that.
> 
> seems like using the www.cheaterjack.com would have been alot easier .:jester:


For $975, what does it do? how much force can it apply, relative to wedges?
Website has no description, just some low rez pictures. Video wasn't working. Looks like a nice concept. But why not just get a special bottle jack that is only a few inches tall, have a steel plate made for the plunger end. I know felllows that have done this.....a lot cheaper than the specialized Silvey tree jacks, though no where near as strong.

The tree went over easy anyhow, plus we had a line in it


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