# How To Remove Aluminum Transfer Without Acid



## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

This is the stuff........


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## treesmith (Dec 15, 2013)

Nice one Randy 

Sent from my GT-I9210T


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## sachsmo (Dec 15, 2013)

Very slick.


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## Dan Forsh (Dec 15, 2013)

Nice, I could keep my fingerprints using your method.


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## cowroy (Dec 15, 2013)

You truly are a mastermind. I had no reason to doubt you, but I will admit I was skeptical when I first heard people talk about this method, but seeing is certainly believing. All I need now is some emory cloth


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## Dan Forsh (Dec 15, 2013)

Can we count this one as a 'For' cylinder honing?


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

Tree Monkey first told me about "just sanding it out" at a GTG a couple of years ago. I was skeptical too. 

Scott is the "Mastermind" here, not me.


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## watsonr (Dec 15, 2013)

Do you always put your fingers out when holding the tool?

Got some good music going too, just need a glass of tea to top it off.

Another fine video production Mr. Randy!!

How do I get one of those split mandrels and that Wigglesworth thingy?


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

Dan Forsh said:


> Can we count this one as a 'For' cylinder honing?



No, I never use a hone. The hone contacts the entire bore, and therefore, can remove plating where there is no transfer. This way you are just sanding where the aluminum is at.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Do you always put your fingers out when holding the tool?
> 
> Got some good music going too, just need a glass of tea to top it off.
> 
> ...



Hey you. 

I want to buy that 150T from you........

I'll send you a sanding mandrel........get the Roloc mandrels on ebay.


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## R DeLawter (Dec 15, 2013)

No better place to learn then here on AS other than maybe being an apprentice to one of the fellows on here.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks for sharing, Randy. Good stuff as usual. So what was the attachment you used for your version of the Wigglesworth hone? Looks a helluva lot more effective than the eyebolt approach!


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## Dan Forsh (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> No, I never use a hone. The hone contacts the entire bore, and therefore, can remove plating where there is no transfer. This way you are just sanding where the aluminum is at.


I was just teasing to see if I could beat the opposing sides out of the bushes


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Thanks for sharing, Randy. Good stuff as usual. So what was the attachment you used for your version of the Wigglesworth hone? Looks a helluva lot more effective than the eyebolt approach!



It's a Roloc Type "R" Mandrel. You can just take out the short shank, and replace it with a longer 1/4 X 20 bolt.


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## LowVolt (Dec 15, 2013)

This is one of the best threads I have seen. It is so simple. I would spend hours cleaning with acid. This takes minutes! 

So you use a nail to make the emry cloth older then you half the end so the cloth slides in? What do you use to half the nail?


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## watsonr (Dec 15, 2013)

I'm going to sea tomorrow until Tuesday afternoon. I'll give a call Wednesday morning to chew the fat while I drive to Philadelphia for business if that works.
Nice video, really. I'm floored every time I read something from you, always sharing and happy to do it.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> This is one of the best threads I have seen. It is so simple. I would spend hours cleaning with acid. This takes minutes!
> 
> So you use a nail to make the emry cloth older then you half the end so the cloth slides in? What do you use to half the nail?



A hacksaw.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I'm going to sea tomorrow until Tuesday afternoon. I'll give a call Wednesday morning to chew the fat while I drive to Philadelphia for business if that works.
> Nice video, really. I'm floored every time I read something from you, always sharing and happy to do it.



Jon loves that MS150.......I want to give it to him for Christmas. He just raves about how handy it is. 

Looking forward to catching up my friend.....


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## AKDoug (Dec 15, 2013)

Randy, once again, thank you so much. The knowledge you share is priceless. Thanks to treemonkey and wigglesworth too...


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

AKDoug said:


> Randy, once again, thank you so much. The knowledge you share is priceless. Thanks to treemonkey and wigglesworth too...



Those two guys have helped me so much to better understand this stuff. A big thanks from me to them as well.


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## angelo c (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> This is the stuff........





Randy, thanks.

Thats a funny accent youz guyz got down der. What part of brooklyn duz youz guyz come from ?


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

The southern part.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 15, 2013)

Randy your way shown is going to save me a lot of elbow grease. Been doing it without acid for about 5 years now.


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## diggers_dad (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Those two guys have helped me so much to better understand this stuff. A big thanks from me to them as well.



Randy,

A huge "Thank you!" to them and especially you. You didn't only explain it, but showed how it's done step by step. You could teach a chimpanzee to do that. 

Amazing! 

You have given a whole lot of saws a new lease on life. I'm off to the hardware store ...

dd


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Randy your way shown is going to save me a lot of elbow grease. Been doing it without acid for about 5 years now.



What really got me started doing it this way was after I ruined a couple. If they have a scratch that's thru the plating, the acid will eat at the underlying aluminum and the scratch becomes a gulley. Same for pits, the acid gets in the pits, and it eats and eats.......


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## Chris-PA (Dec 15, 2013)

Always a pleasure to see a man work when he's good and enjoys what he does. I love the effective tools made from simple objects. 

I've had good success with the eye bolt and Scotchbrite, but was always worried I'd contact the bore with the eye bolt - I used longer pieces and never did, but I like that better. If I ever do another I may borrow that idea.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

A hacksaw? Don't you have a Dremel?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> What really got me started doing it this way was after I ruined a couple. If they have a scratch that's thru the plating, the acid will eat at the underlying aluminum and the scratch becomes a gulley. Same for pits, the acid gets in the pits, and it eats and eats.......



Same for the ports if one isn't careful. Petroleum jelly around the ports is a good idea if you're doing the acid thing aggressively to a large area, say with a cotton ball vs. the q-tip approach.

So who has the magic for doin' this the redneck way with a Dremel and a coupla beers? I seem to have misplaced my Foredam.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> A hacksaw? Don't you have a Dremel?



Nope.

Just turn down the shank to fit your Dremel.........you do have a lathe.....right?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> .........you do have a lathe.....right?



Right.

But I do have a grinder and a Dremel...and an old small caliber gun cleaning rod that just came to mind as a possible candidate for the task with some minor modification.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

Now ****......get on ebay. Foredoms ain't too expensive.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now ****......get on ebay. Foredoms ain't too expensive.



I hear ya. I just don't do enough of this stuff on a regular basis to justify pulling that trigger yet. You mentioned the convenience of the foot pedal...

What ballbark rpm's were you turning?...I mean loosely, generally speaking.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

I run it all over the place.....revving it over the transfer......letting it coast across the plating. At what RPM????? Who knows?


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## TPA (Dec 15, 2013)

How do you think a fine grit flap wheel would do for this application? Or even one of those flap wheel scotch brite combo wheels?


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## fastLeo151 (Dec 15, 2013)

You mean I wasted hours of my life sanding by hand.....


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## angelo c (Dec 15, 2013)

Randy, have you tried to heat the cyl to knock it down to 8 minutes ? 


That would be a 20% gain. ...


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## dboyd351 (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks Randy. That's way better than acid!


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## rwoods (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> What really got me started doing it this way was after I ruined a couple. If they have a scratch that's thru the plating, the acid will eat at the underlying aluminum and the scratch becomes a gulley. Same for pits, the acid gets in the pits, and it eats and eats.......



Thanks for sharing this. I just wish I had known about this method two cylinders ago as I learned the above the hard way. As you said just a little scratch and you have a gully - a pit and you have a bigger pit. The acid seems to like fresh aluminum better than the transfer. Thanks again. Ron


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## sachsmo (Dec 15, 2013)

Do any of them there monkeys have a trick for peeling plating???????????????????????


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

TPA said:


> How do you think a fine grit flap wheel would do for this application? Or even one of those flap wheel scotch brite combo wheels?



I think the diameter would be too large to really just get atop the transfer without getting on the plating.....


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## Warped5 (Dec 15, 2013)

Nice post, Randy! Thanks!

Fine choice of music in the background, BTW ...


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## CR500 (Dec 15, 2013)

That is cool to see someone else does this technique as well lol. I've been using this on and off for a couple years on sled & bike motors and just started using it on saws at the Stihl dealership I work at.

You should of seen the expression my boss had when I handed him a "refreshed" 441 cylinder that had been straight gassed. He wondered how I did it...I just told him a little emery cloth and some time will go a long way.

Thanks for sharing Randy!!! I learn a lot from your threads, I hope I can start porting in the near future.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

TPA said:


> How do you think a fine grit flap wheel would do for this application? Or even one of those flap wheel scotch brite combo wheels?



Sorta what I was getting at...

I can imagine anyone reading this who hasn't appreciated the work that actually goes into salvaging a bad cylinder thinking their 18volt DeWalt and a sanding drum from Home Depot is gonna refurb their particular toasted top end in 10 minutes. There's a _little_ more to it than that, but obviously more than one way to skin a cat, too...as has been demonstrated by another great thread.


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## barneyrb (Dec 15, 2013)

Randy, you are correct.....Scott is a smart feller and Wiggs is a fart smeller..........


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 15, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Do any of them there monkeys have a trick for peeling plating???????????????????????



Ain't it pretty much just like a banana?


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## LowVolt (Dec 15, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Now ****......get on ebay. Foredoms ain't too expensive.



Which model do you have?


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## Warped5 (Dec 15, 2013)

barneyrb said:


> Randy, you are correct.....Scott is a smart feller and Wiggs is a fart smeller..........




That's pretty funny there ...


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## mp5n (Dec 15, 2013)

I gave up on the acid years ago also. One thing I do is use a 7/32 round file to knock off the majority of the aluminum by hand. I've found it works really well, is fast and won't go through the plating. I then go with the emory cloth in the same grits you use. I really like how you do the final cleanup with the Scotch Brite. I'm going to make up a few of those plugs in different diameters.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> Which model do you have?



CC Series.....


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## TPA (Dec 15, 2013)

They come in all sizes and grits. You can even get wheels made of scotch brite only.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

OK.......the shanks are too short.


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## TPA (Dec 15, 2013)

You have a lathe...


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## TPA (Dec 15, 2013)

Make them any length you like. Grind a slight flat on the wheel arbor, and drill & tap the extension for a small set screw.


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## Mastermind (Dec 15, 2013)

Beautiful. 

You win.


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## TPA (Dec 15, 2013)

You are right. I did win.

I have an 066 with this exact problem, and since you showed us this great idea I may have a running saw soon.

I was a machinist for years and used the split arbor with emory all the time. I've made many of those extensions for flap wheels, and yet this never occurred to me for my cylinder until you demonstrated it. 

Thank you MM


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## TPA (Dec 15, 2013)

By the way, I've had my eye out for a hobby lathe for a while, and this thread prompted me to go look at Grizzly. 

Thought I'd share that they have their small South Bend lathe on sale for something like 30% off for those interested.


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## naturelover (Dec 15, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Sorta what I was getting at...
> 
> I can imagine anyone reading this who hasn't appreciated the work that actually goes into salvaging a bad cylinder thinking their 18volt DeWalt and a sanding drum from Home Depot is gonna refurb their particular toasted top end in 10 minutes.


 
Well, I did take a drill bit and slide a piece of water hose around it, tape some sandpaper to it and chuck it in the drill press.......


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## windthrown (Dec 15, 2013)

Wow, and I thought this thread was a throwback to the 60s, and how to restore a jug w/o tripping.


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## chadihman (Dec 15, 2013)

Nice Randy. I use a split mandrel like you have there with emory cloth for polishing inside bushings and such.
I'm gonna share a bit of experience with you. The squeaky chair gets the grease. Your chair squeaking was driving me nuts in your video.


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## DexterDay (Dec 15, 2013)

Wow... Another great thread and learning tool...

I STIHL have so much to learn.


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## diggers_dad (Dec 15, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> I hear ya. I just don't do enough of this stuff on a regular basis to justify pulling that trigger yet. You mentioned the convenience of the foot pedal...
> 
> What ballbark rpm's were you turning?...I mean loosely, generally speaking.



This ain't the quality of Randy's machine, but ...

http://www.sciplus.com/p/VARIABLE-SPEED-FLEX-SHANK-GRINDER_43486


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 15, 2013)

These wouldn't be what you want to use for transfer removal, 
Just in the places you normally would grab a sandpaper cartridge. 

this just a good & strait (the strait part matters ) piece of 1/4 diam rod.
Since i was gluing I didn't have to slot these.
I put a piece of tape on the end of the sandpaper and attached it to the shaft
than started rolling the paper around the shaft
till I had the diameter I wanted.
Notice the green arrows: the paper lays/wraps that way cause the shaft normally turns the other way.

Now wrap a piece of tape around the sandpaper roll to hold it.
The roll has to be *tight* and strait.
So may take ya a couple of practice roll ups
to get the technique smooth.
Holding the shaft in the side if your vice jaws is handy for this.
and having the tape already torn 
and stuck on the edge of your table helps too.

Now that you have the roll smooth and taped, Set it upright and carefully
poor a layer of good 'ol common white glue on the top-edge.
[ see the red arrow and scratchy handwriting  ]

now let it sit for a couple of days till that glue drys 
[ the glue will pretty thick ]
and you're good to go!

This one was forgotten in movings and is so old now that the shaft has rusted in it
otherwise you almost can't tell them from store bought ones.
They work just the same too.


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## helimech (Dec 16, 2013)

i just got a ms440 that seems to have this problem from possible straight gassing it, thanks mastermind for this post you da man

no i need a replacement piston and rings.....oem or what do you guys think?


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

Just picked up a foredom cc series on eBay with foot control, hand piece and a few bits for $109.


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

helimech said:


> i just got a ms440 that seems to have this problem from possible straight gassing it, thanks mastermind for this post you da man
> 
> no i need a replacement piston and rings.....oem or what do you guys think?



Meteor are very good AM kits.


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

chadihman said:


> Nice Randy. I use a split mandrel like you have there with emory cloth for polishing inside bushings and such.
> I'm gonna share a bit of experience with you. The squeaky chair gets the grease. Your chair squeaking was driving me nuts in your video.



That was the hanger my Foredom is on......


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## RedFir Down (Dec 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> No, I never use a hone. The hone contacts the entire bore, and therefore, can remove plating where there is no transfer. This way you are just sanding where the aluminum is at.


Randy I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.... You NEVER run a hone through a cylinder or just in this situation when removing aluminum transfer?
Thank you!


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## sachsmo (Dec 16, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> Meteor are very good AM kits.




Use a bunch of Meteors.

They are always first choice and first quality.


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## tbone75 (Dec 16, 2013)

Meteors are the way to go ! OEM is no better IMO , just cost 3 times as much.


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## chadihman (Dec 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> That was the hanger my Foredom is on......


Oh sorry....The squeaky hanger gets the grease


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## sachsmo (Dec 16, 2013)

Da monkey puts his foreskin on a hanger? oh my!


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## leecopland (Dec 16, 2013)

Excellent videos! Thanks mastermind.

Lee


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

RedFir Down said:


> Randy I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.... You NEVER run a hone through a cylinder or just in this situation when removing aluminum transfer?
> Thank you!



Right. I never use a hone. 

I have different size hones, and have used them in the past........until I found this way.


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

I found a nail here at work and halved it using a hacksaw like Randy said. That chit worked. Need my foredom to get here and need a good source for emery cloth.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

I gather regular sandpaper would probably just fall apart at the higher rpm's and the "fabric" style backing of emery cloth keeps that from happening?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

diggers_dad said:


> This ain't the quality of Randy's machine, but ...
> 
> http://www.sciplus.com/p/VARIABLE-SPEED-FLEX-SHANK-GRINDER_43486



Anyone have any experience/thoughts with/on this grinder? Looks like a decent deal if the quality isn't half bad. 'Course I already have a Dremel and am headed to the shop here at work to try rustling up a nail and a hacksaw to give that approach a try first.


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

A little bird told me they have the foredom style grinder at Harbor Freight. Possibly not the best tool but it should work for cylinder clean-ups.

http://www.harborfreight.com/flexible-shaft-grinder-and-carver-40432.html


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-50-YD-A...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a79f82850


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> A little bird told me they have the foredom style grinder at Harbor Freight. Possibly not the best tool but it should work for cylinder clean-ups.
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/flexible-shaft-grinder-and-carver-40432.html



That one has a good motor, but the handpieces will get hot when you use them for a few minutes. The Foredom handpieces will fit though.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

Is the flex-shaft attachment for a Dremel worth considering?


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Is the flex-shaft attachment for a Dremel worth considering?



Yes, they are very good. You are limited to 1/8 and 1/32 collets though.


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## angelo c (Dec 16, 2013)

I just split a wooden dowel, chucked it up in the Dewalt and wrapped the sandpaper around it...worked great...no glue no cost just work.


LET THE REDNECKERY BEGIN !!!!

I guess the next thread should be...."hacksaw or hammer...what tool is used more often" !!!


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-50-YD-A...t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a79f82850


 
Yup I saw that. Damn then I got to buy three rolls. But that seems like a very good price. I know they have that stuff at home depot but I bet it is half that cost and you probably only get a few feet.


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 16, 2013)

LowVolt said: ↑

“A little bird told me they have the foredom style grinder at Harbor Freight. Possibly not the best tool but it should work for cylinder clean-ups.

http://www.harborfreight.com/flexible-shaft-grinder-and-carver-40432.html





Mastermind said:


> That one has a good motor, but the handpieces will get hot when you use them for a few minutes. The Foredom handpieces will fit though.



I really didn't need to know that. I have the Harbor fright unit and trying to save up money for projects was already tough.

and I'm assuming the like button is stuck in the smiley bin , So I haven't been able to like anything on here since the site rebuild.

edit to add lost qoute


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Yes, they are very good. You are limited to 1/8 and 1/32 collets though.



I just saw the collet limitation, but that shouldn't present a major problem. Bigger inconvenience is no vari-speed on my particular Dremel, though it does have all the multi-speed positions. 

Thank you, sir.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

LegDeLimber said:


> I really didn't need to know that. I have the Harbor fright unit and trying to save up money for projects was already tough.
> 
> and I'm assuming the like button is stuck in the smiley bin , So I haven't been able to like anything on here since the site rebuild.



It's the little "thumb up" thingie in the lower right hand corner of a post.


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## angelo c (Dec 16, 2013)

LegDeLimber said:


> I really didn't need to know that. I have the Harbor fright unit and trying to save up money for projects was already tough.
> 
> and I'm assuming the like button is stuck in the smiley bin , So I haven't been able to like anything on here since the site rebuild.



there is a dotted line between your post and your sig line....follow it all the way to the right and you'll see the thumbs up symbol


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

Randy, could I get by with two grits? I will probably just get three but thought I would ask.


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

If I could just have two grits, it would be 180 and 320.


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

So what exactly is the "thing" you cut down to run the scotch brite pad? How many mm's smaller are you making that "thing?"


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> So what exactly is the "thing" you cut down to run the scotch brite pad? How many mm's smaller are you making that "thing?"




It's a Roloc mandrel Rory. 







I don't have a certain undersize.......I just want the Scotchbrite tight in the bore. Sometimes I double the pad.


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

Ok 20 questions I know...

So is that black part rubber or metal?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> Ok 20 questions I know...
> 
> So is that black part rubber or metal?



Looks like neoprene or something along those lines to me. Doesn't really need to be. Can just as well be a smaller diameter wire brush attachment (I'd use brass) or anything else that'll grab the ScotchBrite (or whatever) pad keeping it from slipping in the bore for the final pass. I like the Roloc approach though. No surprise dings or scratches from bristles or a metal attachment. Pretty cool.


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## MasterMech (Dec 16, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Looks like neoprene or something along those lines to me. Doesn't really need to be. Can just as well be a smaller diameter wire brush attachment (I'd use brass) or anything else that'll grab the ScotchBrite (or whatever) pad keeping it from slipping in the bore for the final pass. I like the Roloc approach though. No surprise dings or scratches from bristles or a metal attachment. Pretty cool.


And they should be very easy to cut down to the proper size. I have one in the shop now, just always used it for it's intended application.


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## rwoods (Dec 16, 2013)

Did someone say "grits"? I love grits and gravy. And grits and butter. And eggs .... . I also love this thread. Thanks again, Mastermind and friends.  Ron


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> And they should be very easy to cut down to the proper size. I have one in the shop now, just always used it for it's intended application.



Basically a mandrel for attaching buffing/polishing socks, right?


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## jughead500 (Dec 16, 2013)

Shoo lord.the only way I could fix grits is if they'd take off aluminum transfer.lol I could eat sandpaper faster than grits.lol dont get me started on homney.


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## jughead500 (Dec 16, 2013)

Oh yeah thank you mr mastermind for the work on the vids and everyone else for the ideas.im gettin tired of rustin everything down with acid fumes.I got roloc arbors and think I can get by with my 1/4'' air die grinder with the rest


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Looks like neoprene or something along those lines to me. Doesn't really need to be. Can just as well be a smaller diameter wire brush attachment (I'd use brass) or anything else that'll grab the ScotchBrite (or whatever) pad keeping it from slipping in the bore for the final pass. I like the Roloc approach though. No surprise dings or scratches from bristles or a metal attachment. Pretty cool.



Yeah the roloc is the way to go. I to would be afraid of the metal bristles scratching the cylinder. I have a few trashed cylinders (deep gouges) here I am going to try this method. Then after I clean them I am going to see what it takes to really **** them up.

I recently bought the 5 hone kit from baileys. I returned that, and bought the used foredom and all accessories to make this method work and just about made an even trade. I am really excited to try this method!


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## woodmotorsports (Dec 16, 2013)

I was just about to head to the store for some muriatic acid when I decided to check what posts I needed to catch up on here...and then I got sidetracked by this one. Still had to go to Napa for the red scotchbrite pads, but had pretty much everything else here for this project.
Craigslist 357xp jug before:




and after:




Works pretty darned good I'd say. Got a meteor piston on the way from weedeaterman and I'll be back in business.


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## RedFir Down (Dec 16, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Right. I never use a hone.
> 
> I have different size hones, and have used them in the past........until I found this way.


Good to know, THANK you sir!!!!
One more question... Running the scotch brite pad up and down the cylinder gives it enough "texture" for the rings to seat? Or is this really not an issue on these saw motors?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 16, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> I recently bought the 5 hone kit from baileys. I returned that...



Me too. Wish I could return mine. Never been out of the packaging. Been a little too long for me, though.

That said, I still think there's a place for the honing approach to reviving trashed cylinders by someone skilled enough and with the experience to utilize the method effectively. Just a different approach to using another type of abrasive process to ultimately achieve the same end result. Some would say it is superior to other methods when done right and actually enhances overall port beveling in general....just on a smoothing basis, mind you.

I would venture to say that this thread is one of the more valuable among the many informative threads I've read over the years. Should be the first one in a new sticky called "Myth Busters".


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## LowVolt (Dec 16, 2013)

I wish there was a DIY/mods/maintence section in the stickies so threads like this would not get lost in the shuffle. I have been on other forums that had a mods section and it was nothing but links to those peticular threads. I don't want a thread that has 5 pages of junk to get to the next good informative thread.


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## Mastermind (Dec 16, 2013)

RedFir Down said:


> Good to know, THANK you sir!!!!
> One more question... Running the scotch brite pad up and down the cylinder gives it enough "texture" for the rings to seat? Or is this really not an issue on these saw motors?



The rings will probably "bed in" quicker after using the emery cloth, even though the Scotchbrite was used to polish the plating.


----------



## RedFir Down (Dec 16, 2013)

Roger that.... Thanks again!


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## MasterMech (Dec 17, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Basically a mandrel for attaching buffing/polishing socks, right?


All kinds of things attach to them. They have scotchbrite pads, sandpaper discs, gasket removal brushes among other things. They twist on/off.


----------



## windthrown (Dec 17, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> A little bird told me they have the foredom style grinder at Harbor Freight. Possibly not the best tool but it should work for cylinder clean-ups.
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/flexible-shaft-grinder-and-carver-40432.html


 
I bought a digital control Dremel style grinder at HF and it died after 3 weeks. So I am looking for a real one.


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## windthrown (Dec 17, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> The rings will probably "bed in" quicker after using the emery cloth, even though the Scotchbrite was used to polish the plating.


 
Do you cross hatch the cylinders with the emery cloth? Or do you want smooth?


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 17, 2013)

windthrown said:


> Do you cross hatch the cylinders with the emery cloth? Or do you want smooth?



I don't worry much about a pattern. After saving a jug I'm just glad to have it.


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## RAMROD48 (Dec 17, 2013)

I dont know if its been mentioned or not but Stihl has a 4-mix repair kit that has a really cool mandrel with screw on scotch bright pads...I use that in a cordless drill with some spray lube to go slow...Done 12 or so in the last 2 years and saved all but the worst that acid wouldnt have worked on either....


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## MasterMech (Dec 17, 2013)

I have to admit to learning the hard way about acid as well. Both cylinders I've tried it on wound up with a case of the pits. Sanding it off it is!


----------



## griffonks (Dec 17, 2013)

I bought a sanding ball at advance auto for less than $10. Its a 2 in ball of maroon scotch brite material on a drill bit attachment. Worked well on a 2 stroke clamshell with the head off


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## arrow13 (Jan 8, 2014)

LowVolt said:


> I wish there was a DIY/mods/maintence section in the stickies so threads like this would not get lost in the shuffle. I have been on other forums that had a mods section and it was nothing but links to those peticular threads. I don't want a thread that has 5 pages of junk to get to the next good informative thread.


 
Well said. I agree. Even though I like to read a lot, there are times when there is a more immediate need to hopefully find what you really want to learn and use.

Thanks Mastermind for the great demos. Love to learn and love to save instead of buying another part.


----------



## LowVolt (Jan 8, 2014)

arrow13 said:


> Well said. I agree. Even though I like to read a lot, there are times when there is a more immediate need to hopefully find what you really want to learn and use.
> 
> Thanks Mastermind for the great demos. Love to learn and love to save instead of buying another part.


I have not forgot about this idea. I need to update my thread in the chainsaw stickies to get the ball rolling. This thread will be a good one to add to that list.


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## spike60 (Jan 8, 2014)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Randy your way shown is going to save me a lot of elbow grease. Been doing it without acid for about 5 years now.



Yeah, I've always done it this way too. Tried acid twice but......... Hate the smell of it for one thing. And it always goes some place where it shouldn't.


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## jughead500 (Jan 8, 2014)

The transfer can be removed by hand or shall I say by finger.I used small pieces of sticky sandpaper and stuck on my finger.took a pretty good while.I finished up with scotchbrite and made one of the wigglesworth thingies.if I had tried acid.I would have had to throwed the cylinder in the scrap pile


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## HuskStihl (Jan 8, 2014)

watsonr said:


> Do you always put your fingers out when holding the tool?
> 
> just need a glass of tea to top it off



Actually, that would be considered nearly perfect right hand form with proper 4th and 5th finger bracing when doing delicate work on an easily damaged thing while using a rotating tool. _And,_ it makes you look like an extra on downton abbey


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 8, 2014)

I'd sure love a piece of hot apple pie this morning.


----------



## LowVolt (Jan 8, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd sure love a piece of hot apple pie this morning.


 
Wouldn't we all........


----------



## jughead500 (Jan 8, 2014)

I was gonna say something but would probably get banned. Lol


----------



## sld961 (Feb 24, 2014)

Bump for a great thread. I was looking for it in the stickies and couldn't find it. I couldn't remember the exact name of the title, so it took me a while to find it on Google. 

Randy, you say that if you had to pick two grits, they'd be 180 and 320. I'm working on purchasing a Foredom and the accessories needed. Is there a single "do-it-all" grit that would get someone through this process successfully? Or is it definitely at least a 2-grit process?


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## nmurph (Feb 24, 2014)

I do it slightly differently than Randy- I use sand paper on madrels, but I also use Cratex wheels for the initial work. It takes transfer off quickly, especially if it's a few long streaks, and I can "spot" clean an area and then switch to the mandrel for the finish work.


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## Mastermind (Feb 24, 2014)

I'd say 220 would be a good "single grit" system.


----------



## sld961 (Feb 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'd say 220 would be a good "single grit" system.


Would you feel comfortable recommending doing that? Or would you highly recommend 2 steps?


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 24, 2014)

I use several steps.......but if it is really needed? I'm not sure, but I've not ruined any jugs yet.


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## MGoBlue (Mar 15, 2014)

I recently tried this method on a 394 cylinder. I had some reservations about blowing right through the plating. A few PM's to the Master and all my transfer is gone. Really appreciate info like this being shared. Now I need to find the how-to for beveling ports...

Thanks Randy.


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## griffonks (Mar 16, 2014)

I have sanded out five cylinders since this thread came about and it's so much easier. I'm going to take my jug of acid to the hazardous waste drop.

Thanks

Sent from my SCH-R530C using Tapatalk


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## R DeLawter (Mar 16, 2014)

I have done one cylinder with out using acid and it cleaned up nice. Have another one in line that needs taken off to see if I can save it. > Also have a gallon setting around now.


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## Mastermind (Mar 16, 2014)

I gotta say it again. I learned it from Treemonkey. Thanks Scott.


----------



## tbone75 (Mar 16, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I gotta say it again. I learned it from Treemonkey. Thanks Scott.


Monkey see , monkey do !


----------



## rattler362 (Mar 16, 2014)

This is truly a great tread thanks for posting it Randy.


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## sld961 (Mar 20, 2014)

Randy, what do you use for your split mandrel?


----------



## nmurph (Mar 20, 2014)

sld961 said:


> Randy, what do you use for your split mandrel?


 
A nail...look around, there are innumerable items that can be used. I have one of the new-fangled Husqvarna small screnches that I use in addition to nails, tubing, etc...


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 20, 2014)

Here is a cylinder I thought was gonna clean up beautifully. Was going great until I noticed the scratches. 

Sucks. . I have one more 036 cylinder that I am hoping is good.


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## sld961 (Mar 20, 2014)

nmurph said:


> A nail...look around, there are innumerable items that can be used. I have one of the new-fangled Husqvarna small screnches that I use in addition to nails, tubing, etc...


That's what I was thinking. I used some shaft that I had laying around, it was too thick, so I had to thin out one end with a grinder to fit into my hand piece. I must have gotten it oblong, cause it's got a pretty good wobble. It worked, but I need to make a nicer one. I'll have to go to the hardware store and look around. None of my nails are long enough.


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## Mastermind (Mar 20, 2014)

I used pole barn spikes. 

Dex, that jug will run fine.


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## Marshy (Mar 20, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> Here is a cylinder I thought was gonna clean up beautifully. Was going great until I noticed the scratches.
> 
> Sucks. . I have one more 036 cylinder that I am hoping is good.
> 
> ...


 
Looks like a good cylinder to practice on, both porting and transfer removal.




sld961 said:


> That's what I was thinking. I used some shaft that I had laying around, it was too thick, so I had to thin out one end with a grinder to fit into my hand piece. I must have gotten it oblong, cause it's got a pretty good wobble. It worked, but I need to make a nicer one. I'll have to go to the hardware store and look around. None of my nails are long enough.


 
If you have a dremmel then you can zip the head off a large pole spike then cut a slit in the end then pinch it together a little with pliars. Thats what I did but with a ~6" long 1/4" hard steel round stock. Works great to remove transfer and also smooth out the port runners because it is about the same radius as the corner in runner already.


----------



## Philbert (Mar 20, 2014)

sld961 said:


> Randy, what do you use for your split mandrel?





> I'll have to go to the hardware store and look around. None of my nails are long enough.



Look on eBay. I bought several split mandrels that fit Dremel style tools for a buck a piece or so, including shipping. Lots of sizes and types.

Philbert


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## Marshy (Mar 20, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Look on eBay. I bought several split mandrels that fit Dremel style tools for a buck a piece or so, including shipping. Lots of sizes and types.
> 
> Philbert


 
Problem with the dremmel is you dont have the reach to get into the cylinder that far unless you are using the long flex attachment. Even then its a bit bulky to be sticking the whole thing in there. The rest of the space that you would use to see your work becomes blocked by your hand.


----------



## Philbert (Mar 20, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Problem with the dremmel is you dont have the reach to get into the cylinder that far unless you are using the long flex attachment. Even then its a bit bulky to be sticking the whole thing in there. The rest of the space that you would use to see your work becomes blocked by your hand.



Point was that there are many sizes and styles of pre-made, split mandrels available for low cost on eBay (_EDIT: and other places_) if he did not want to make his own. If you don't like using Dremel/Foredom type tools, there are styles that fit other rotary tools.

Philbert


----------



## Marshy (Mar 20, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Point was that there are many sizes and styles of pre-made, split mandrels available for low cost on eBay if he did not want to make his own. If you don't like using Dremel/Foredom type tools, there are styles that fit other rotary tools.
> 
> Philbert


 
Good point! I was just pointing out the limitations of actually using the dremel. I also found that I had to use a fair amount of pressure and dont thing an dremel arbor would take that kind of force very long because they are small diameter rod...


----------



## MGoBlue (Mar 20, 2014)

I used an exacto knife. 



If I were going to use it often, I would grind the tip to distribute pressure more evenly.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 20, 2014)

I find it difficult to use power tools on acid. A couple of beers at the most.


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## DexterDay (Mar 20, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Looks like a good cylinder to practice on, both porting and transfer removal.......



I want to put it on a runner for a buddy. 

I have tinkered with porting, but my fear comes in the bevel of the port. What to use and how much bevel. 

Any hints, tips, tricks..


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## Mastermind (Mar 20, 2014)

A diamond ball....


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## Crow99 (Mar 20, 2014)

Would something like the diamond chamfer points from Foredom work?

http://www.foredom.net/apd72.aspx


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## R DeLawter (Mar 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> A diamond ball....


 Can you show us a picture and best place to buy one?


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## Mastermind (Mar 20, 2014)

I'll have to take one tomorrow. I'm not in the shop. 

I just use 1/8 shank diamond burrs in a 1/4" ball shape. I find them on ebay.


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## JC360 (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks for passing this along! Tried the acid method once and thought it was a PITA. Tried the acid free way last week on my 288 project and was impressed for sure! Here is how she turned out.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Mar 21, 2014)

MGoBlue said:


> I used an exacto knife.



Great idea..., and chucked it up in what, tho?

As for using a Dremel, the flex shaft is certainly the way to go. There are any number of options for a long split mandrel solution to either buy or make yourself. Turn a long spike to fit the chuck, split it with a hack saw, don't look back (or hurt yourself, now hear me?).

Don't disregard a Dremel as a perfectly viable option if you have one. Works just fine.


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## MGoBlue (Mar 21, 2014)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Great idea..., and chucked it up in what, tho?


My corded Dewalt drill.


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## Philbert (Mar 21, 2014)

MGoBlue said:


> My corded Dewalt drill.


Stock DeWalt, or ported and modded?

Philbert


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## Mastermind (Mar 21, 2014)

I once ported a toaster you know.


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## cgraham1 (Jun 17, 2014)

Bump


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## cedarshark (Jun 23, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I used pole barn spikes.
> 
> Dex, that jug will run fine.



Randy, I have tossed jugs like this in the trash because I thought they were unusable. Can you please explain why this is a OK jug to re-run ? I am sure you are correct, but I would like to know how to seperate the good from the bad. Thanks


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## Mastermind (Jun 23, 2014)

As long as the transfer is gone, and the plating is not worn thru......the jug is serviceable.


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## DexterDay (Jun 23, 2014)

It was explained to me by Randy and a few others, that as long as the lines are linear, that they will eventually fill with carbon and seal themselves. 

The saw that had this jug, has been in service ever since, and one of the strongest stock 034's (036 conversion) I have seen.


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## Locust Cutter (Jun 23, 2014)

Randy, 
Probably a dumb question, but if you're only cleaning the aluminium out and not really affecting the plating, does the process change in ID of the cylinder enough to need larger ring(s), or can you sill run stock ring(s)?
I might have access to an old Lawn Boy engine would be slightly larger ad easier for a noob like myself to try on, plus it's free so there's that. LOL 
Fine work as always!


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## Mastermind (Jun 23, 2014)

Just standard rings are needed. 

There aren't oversized rings and pistons for plated jugs. There is a slight difference between an "A" and a "B" jug though....


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## cedarshark (Jun 23, 2014)

I tried Randy's method today on a ms250 cylinder that had transfer on both the intake and exhaust side of the cyl. The only thing I used was a dremel and sanding flapper wheel at 80 grit. It did very well on the lower section of the cylinder but was cumbersome and blocked my vision on the top half. You definitely need the additional reach and visibility of a flex shaft on the dremel or a foredom style grinder. I found a reasonable deal on the bay today for a used one without the foot pedal. My compliments and thanks to all involved in sharing this info. It was very helpful.


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## cmarti (Jun 24, 2014)

Being the laziest guy in the room usually leads me to quick and easy and maybe sloppy solutions to get stuff done. This seems so obvious, I can't believe the hours I spent playing with oven cleaner, toilet bowl cleaner
and wet sanding my finger tips off. Why did you hold out on us so long Monkey?.....Did you have to wait for WigsW patent to run?

Seriously, thanks for sharing.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> As long as the transfer is gone, and the plating is not worn thru......the jug is serviceable.



Another important aspect to consider is whether there is damage below the ports that may scare folks away from salvaging and restoring a cylinder that would otherwise be perfectly serviceable. If the damaged area can be smoothed out and not present a condition that would damage the piston skirts....(like a circlip gouge or something along those lines), go for it. The rings and all the important action are above the ports, so even a gouge or minor pitting below the ports shouldn't automatically be a reason to toss a cylinder if aluminum transfer can be cleaned up. Common sense obviously needs to be the guide there.


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## Mastermind (Jun 24, 2014)

True.....

I have a 346 jug in my hand right now with damage from a circlip. It's going back into service.


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## cedarshark (Jun 24, 2014)

Pogo & Randy, thanks for the clarification. Obviously, I (and many others I bet) have ditched cylinders that could have been salvaged. It would sure be great if someone with tons of experience and access to a lot of damaged cylinders could post a collage of salvagable cylinders. My rule of thumb(up til now) was toss everything that had damage below the plating...boy, was I wrong !


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 24, 2014)

Here is one example of what looks like a really, really bad situation that is now a very strong running 036. I helped a buddy do his first saw tear down and rebuild last winter...., from splitting the cases on up. We worked on it a little at a time every Friday night for a few weeks with me looking over his shoulder (most of the time) until it was time to fire it up. Fueled her up and after a few pulls she popped on choke and then fired right up as she should have. The look on the guy's face was priceless as he'd never done anything like this before....grinnin' ear to ear. Then she stopped dead. Wouldn't pull over. Locked up tight. Dead. My heart sank and I had a pretty strong feeling about what just happened since I installed the first circlip (which was fine), but failed to inspect his installation of the other one before we buttoned up the top end. My bad and a lesson learned there for sure. (Even bigger lesson was the guy refused to let me pay for a replacement piston and insisted on "doing it right" the next time.)

Anyway, here is the carnage. And we were very, VERY lucky the damage occurred where it did. It was a toasted top end to start and the guy went the acid route to clean it up and had quite a bit of time into it before we installed the first piston....then went with emery cloth and quite a bit more time smoothing out the damaged area from the circlip failure before installing the current piston. Prolly wishes now we'd have seen this thread before hand. I sure as hell do!!!

But pics are worth a thousand words...




And to illustrate how incredibly hard NiSi plating _really_ is by comparison, here's what happened to the piston itself...




Yeah, we were very lucky. The circlip was still wedged between the piston and the cylinder and the damage on the piston up toward the rings was from me freeing it up. Weird how it ended up where it did and I'm not even gonna try to explain that, but figure it popped out, got loose in the window, and just naturally got sucked toward the intake.




​


----------



## Philbert (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks for those photos (don't want to 'like' someone's bad luck) - very informative.

Philbert


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## cedarshark (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks Pogo. So, because the scarring is below the intake, and sees no contact with the rings, the cylinder is ok to reuse. Just trying to get this straight in my pea brain.


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## Mastermind (Jun 24, 2014)

Here's a 346XP jug that is usable. 

Far from perfect in several ways, but very usable, especially if the transfers will be raised.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 24, 2014)

Thanks Randy. So the piston travel will not catch the rings on the gouge?


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 24, 2014)

If the rings can travel over this.......


----------



## DexterDay (Jun 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> If the rings can travel over this.......




Super LIKE! Hardcore REPPED!!


----------



## tbone75 (Jun 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> If the rings can travel over this.......


I would bet that thing runs good ! LOL


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 24, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Here's a 346XP jug that is usable.
> 
> Far from perfect in several ways, but very usable, especially if the transfers will be raised.


Randy, your port job makes this gouge seem rather insignificant...


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## Mastermind (Jun 24, 2014)

How about this one?


----------



## tbone75 (Jun 25, 2014)

How much more do them extra fingers help ? Looks wicked ! LOL


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 25, 2014)

A lot.


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## cedarshark (Jun 25, 2014)

That cylinder looks like it had been badly scored before you got it. Was that the case ?


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 25, 2014)

The last one? 

If that is the one you are referring to then, no. 

It suffered a crankshaft failure. That marred the bore, but it is sill very usable. 

Dennis Cahoon ported that jug years ago. 

He sent it to me in hopes that I could learn something from it.....and I did. 

It's good to have friends that build world record breaking chainsaws.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 25, 2014)

Yes, that was the jug I was referring to. Very cool to have an example handy that can be studied. I apologize as this thread has become somewhat derailed from its original intent of removing transfer but it has been very helpful to determine what jugs should be considered for rebuilds.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 25, 2014)

This thread is right on track. 

Seeing what will run is an important part of what this thread is about. I know what it is like to be short on cash.....and still needed to get something running.


----------



## R DeLawter (Jun 25, 2014)

After seeing these pictures of what will still work, I know I have thrown several away and of the people watching this, I would guess a lot of good ones have been scraped.

Excellent pictures and things learned.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 25, 2014)

1) Its clear to me after seeing the pics of damaged cylinders that remain usuable, that my understanding of what really takes place inside a 2 cycle cylinder is lacking. I will work on that. If someone knows where to get this info, it would be appreciated. I can tear a saw down,replace bearings,seals and pistons....but dont really know why it does what it does.

2) Randy, I have a used Foredom grinder in the mail. It did not come with a stand or foot pedal and I will have to make a stand. I reviewed your initial video and it appears the grinder is mounted behind you and about shoulder level to keep the handpiece fairly level and avoid any excessive bend in the flexshaft. Am I correct ? Thanks.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 25, 2014)

R DeLawter said:


> After seeing these pictures of what will still work, I know I have thrown several away and of the people watching this, I would guess a lot of good ones have been scraped.
> 
> Excellent pictures and things learned.



What I would like to know is what the dealer in town does with old jugs that "cannot be repaired".


----------



## R DeLawter (Jun 25, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> What I would like to know is what the dealer in town does with old jugs that "cannot be repaired".



They may not know any more then some of us do. Also, there are people that want new no mater what the cost.


----------



## Dan Forsh (Jun 26, 2014)

I'd like opinions on this one. This came off my 044 and I decided to replace it due to the vertical grooves going up from the exhaust port. I've still got it, so if it's useable I can keep it as a spare. I'm more asking as I've got an MS260 with similar damage that I would like to save and just throw a Meteor piston in if it can be done. And before anyone says it, yes I know there is still transfer in there, but I stopped sanding when I saw the grooves.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

It would run just fine. Is it ideal? No.......but it would be able to kill many more trees.


----------



## Dan Forsh (Jun 26, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It would run just fine. Is it ideal? No.......but it would be able to kill many more trees.



Thanks Randy. I'm in the process of finding/making a split mandrel to fit my dremel, so I'll post more pics once I've cleaned this and the MS260 one up a bit more.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 26, 2014)

Dan Forsh said:


> Thanks Randy. I'm in the process of finding/making a split mandrel to fit my dremel, so I'll post more pics once I've cleaned this and the MS260 one up a bit more.



Dan....I just got some split mandrels from eBay that are about 3" long and too short to do the top of the cylinder. They work fine on the lower half. I tried to make a long one from 1/8 rod and it is too small to split for the emery cloth. The short mandrel may be ok if you u use the flex shaft on the dremel. I bought a forsome grinder a little more than the dremel flex shaft. The top half of a ms250 is waiting on the forsome. Glad you can salvage the 044 and 026. That will save you some bucks.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 26, 2014)

Randy....I need to make a stand for hanging the foresom motor. In your opinion, how high should the motor hang over your workpiece ? Just high enough to prevent a kink in the cable?


----------



## Dan Forsh (Jun 26, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> Dan....I just got some split mandrels from eBay that are about 3" long and too short to do the top of the cylinder. They work fine on the lower half. I tried to make a long one from 1/8 rod and it is too small to split for the emery cloth. The short mandrel may be ok if you u use the flex shaft on the dremel. I bought a forsome grinder a little more than the dremel flex shaft. The top half of a ms250 is waiting on the forsome. Glad you can salvage the 044 and 026. That will save you some bucks.



Yeah, same here. I trawled ebay the other night and all the ones I could see were too short. I reckon I'd need about 3" projecting from the dremel to get to the top of the 260 cylinder. I thought that these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190867273580?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 looked longer, but the ad says they're only 50mm long. I might buy them anyway and see if they are of some use. I'm assuming that ideally you want to go in with the mandrel parallel to the wall of the cylinder, so I'm thinking that even with a flex shaft, you won't be able to get to the top. I have seen tapered mandrels, so maybe they would be better, bearing this in mind?


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

My hanger is about 6' off the floor. The height of the bench will determine the height of the hanger though.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 26, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> My hanger is about 6' off the floor. The height of the bench will determine the height of the hanger though.



Thank you. I thought it appeared in the original video that the motor was behind you but I thought you might have hung it there for purposes of the video cam. You spend hours with that foredom in your hand...I am sure you have it in the most comfortable position.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

I have a shelf above my bench.......the motor is mounted on the edge of that shelf. It's probably 8" out further than the bench......so about with my shoulder when I'm working.


----------



## Eccentric (Jun 26, 2014)

Yep. Gotta get me a foredom....


----------



## Philbert (Jun 26, 2014)

I use a Dremel with a flex shaft for a number of things. Different tasks need different heights.

I put eye hooks in the ceiling at a few places around the shop where I use it, and hang it with a loop of boot lace/parachute cord, and a spring loaded cord lock.

The cord lock lets me easily adjust the height of the Dremel motor for the task. Something similar should work with the Foredom tool, although I would use heavier cord.

Philbert


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 26, 2014)

Randy, those flex shafts require periodic lubrication. Have you had the need to disassemble your flex shaft to clean and re lubricate .


Eccentric said:


> Yep. Gotta get me a foredom....


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 26, 2014)

I normally break them before they need serviced.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 26, 2014)

Philbert said:


> I use a Dremel with a flex shaft for a number of things. Different tasks need different heights.
> 
> I put eye hooks in the ceiling at a few places around the shop where I use it, and hang it with a loop of boot lace/parachute cord, and a spring loaded cord lock.
> 
> ...


Great idea Philbert! Not only does your idea free up room on the workbench, it reduces the chance of kinking the flex shaft and extends the reach of the tool by allowing it to swing from the eye hook.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 26, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I normally break them before they need serviced.


I looked on the foredom website while ago and they recommend to remove the shaft from the sheath,clean and lubricate with white grease every couple hundred hours.


----------



## Philbert (Jun 26, 2014)

It also makes it easy to move around the shop, take it out the garage, hang it outside, etc. Of course, my Dremel does not have a foot pedal like many Foredom tools do.

Philbert


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## tpope (Jun 27, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> What I would like to know is what the dealer in town does with old jugs that "cannot be repaired".


The dealer that I will never take another saw that needs rebuilt to just chunks them into the trash. He also claims that it was straight gassed when in fact the end of the ring was what broke and locked the saw up. Same man was the one that installed that piston. Backwards...

I came home a googled chainsaw forum. Now you know why I'm here.


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## LegDeLimber (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm too short to reach the ceiling So I went with an improvised stand.
The wooden rake handle can be moved up or down to get the tool where that you're not wrestling with the flex shaft.
It makes a surprising difference in how smoothly you can work the tool then.
The foot control from the Harbor Freight grinder also works nicely with
this imitation dremal.
Once you've run a foot pedal on one, you'll probably not want go back to working without it.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 27, 2014)

LegDeLimber said:


> I'm too short to reach the ceiling So I went with an improvised stand.
> The wooden rake handle can be moved up or down to get the tool where that you're not wrestling with the flex shaft.
> It makes a surprising difference in how smoothly you can work the tool then.
> The foot control from the Harbor Freight grinder also works nicely with
> ...



Nice stand ! What is the tri-pod stand the rake handle is attached to ?


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 27, 2014)

tpope said:


> The dealer that I will never take another saw that needs rebuilt to just chunks them into the trash. He also claims that it was straight gassed when in fact the end of the ring was what broke and locked the saw up. Same man was the one that installed that piston. Backwards...
> 
> I came home a googled chainsaw forum. Now you know why I'm here.



Dealers have a challenge with repair work. Parts are high,labor is high and people get 'sticker shock" when they discover what it will cost to repair an older saw. We are a unique group in that we don't value our time highly but enjoy the opportunity to learn from those willing to share.


----------



## Mastermind (Jun 27, 2014)

Jon and I repair a bunch of saws.......it's not uncommon to have a bill over 400.00 for a rebuild with port work. When you consider the price of a new stock saw though.......that really isn't too much to pay.


----------



## cedarshark (Jun 27, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Jon and I repair a bunch of saws.......it's not uncommon to have a bill over 400.00 for a rebuild with port work. When you consider the price of a new stock saw though.......that really isn't too much to pay.



There is added value with your work as well. The customer ends up with a saw that probably runs "one size up" ! You would not receive this added value if you had the dealer repair the saw.


----------



## Philbert (Jun 27, 2014)

LegDeLimber said:


> I'm too short to reach the ceiling So I went with an improvised stand.



Look like a Mad Dentist or a Punk Musician!

Philbert


----------



## LegDeLimber (Jun 27, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> Nice stand ! What is the tri-pod stand the rake handle is attached to ?


It's a bit of drum kit, a Cymbal/drum stand. I have an assortment of the clamps and arms for drums
that go with it.
Probably was 15 years ago that I grabbed a pair of them and some misc accessories when a local music chain went belly up.
I'm no Musician though. I just went to look for some speakers 
(found nothing I could afford though) and saw these stands and they just looked like something handy to have.
They're actually very easy to reconfigure.
Lately I've been looking at them and thinking of trying to rig a mount for the camera.
--
" Look like a Mad Dentist or a Punk Musician! "
Philbert 
Oh now don't give me any more ideas to ponder on when I'm awake at 2~3 a.m.


----------



## Philbert (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm thinking that a Dremel on a washboard could create quite a sound . . . . !

Philbert


----------



## Chris-PA (Jun 27, 2014)

Philbert said:


> I'm thinking that a Dremel on a washboard could create quite a sound . . . . !
> 
> Philbert


Perhaps that's what they're playing on some of the stuff my son listens to......


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## nikb47 (Jun 27, 2014)

Thanks Randy! Also thanks to all the people who pointed you in the direction of doing this!


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## cedarshark (Jul 8, 2014)

Nice job on that cylinder. I find it better for me to use the small sandpaper flapper wheels with my foredom. I don't have the foot control and it's much easier to start the grinder outside the cylinder with the wheel, then move inside. It sure cuts a lot of time off the job as opposed to doing it with acid.


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## cgraham1 (Sep 12, 2014)

BUMP!


----------



## LowVolt (Sep 15, 2014)

Hey AS is working again!


----------



## tbone75 (Sep 16, 2014)

LowVolt said:


> Hey AS is working again!


Sure looks different today ??


----------



## nikb47 (Sep 16, 2014)

Yes it does


----------



## cgraham1 (Sep 16, 2014)

Where's my sig?

I liked it better before...


----------



## tbone75 (Sep 16, 2014)

I liked it better before this and the BIG change ! LOL Much easier to use before the hack !


----------



## nikb47 (Sep 16, 2014)

It's easier to use on a cell phone browser now.


----------



## tpope (Sep 16, 2014)

New look alrighty... time for an avatar.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 16, 2014)

Another site exploit...

...and pastels are _*SO*_ chainsaw..., ain't it?


----------



## jughead500 (Sep 16, 2014)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Another site exploit...
> 
> ...and pastels are _*SO*_ chainsaw..., ain't it?


Maybe for a stihl hangout.


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## jughead500 (Sep 16, 2014)

Hey at least it aint pink


----------



## tbone75 (Sep 16, 2014)

jughead500 said:


> Hey at least it aint pink


Yet ! LOL


----------



## SteveSr (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks everyone for a great thread! I have my first potential cylinder salvage job in a Stihl 026. I like the Xacto mandrel but unfortunately It won't fit in my Dremel. The threads on the blade holder are .187" diameter and the Dremel limit is .125". I may just chuck the whole Xacto knife in the electric drill and have a go at it!

My last question is where can one find the different grits of the Scotchbrite material like the "red" that was used in the video?

Steve


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## jughead500 (Oct 23, 2014)

You can find smaller pieces of green scotchbrite in the dish detergent section at the grocery store.gray at autozone or any auto body supply and possibly the paint department at Lowes.


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Oct 23, 2014)

The Grobet brand of foredom tools are good, the motors and flex shafts last like the Foredom brand.
The best hand pieces are Foredom brand. They fit the shafts so swapping hand pieces is easy.

Grobet has a good price on a kit with the foot petal.
Their petal is much more controllable than a Dremal or HF.
It is a USA company.

Foredom is the standard but the Grobet is good too.
My fishing buddy is a jeweler/goldsmith. He has 4 tools hanging on his bench, 2 are Foredoms and 2 Grobets.
He says these 2 brands are the best, the others don't last and are not as smooth.
The foredom hand pieces run smoothest and longer. You need to clean and lube them. The grinding grit eats everything.
The Grobet hand pieces are smooth but tend to wear faster than Foredoms. He says they all wear out due to use and not cleaning them but he is working with them. Just buy a few and when you have a few that need cleaning do them all.

A mount can be made with some 1/2 or 3/4" pipe and a floor flange to bolt it to the wall or bench.
26 to 32" above bench seems to be the norm.
I made a stand out of 3/4" square tubing, about 30" upright with 18" arm off it. A few 20 penny nails bent into hooks to hang the Foredom and handpiece on. The Nail head makes a nice base to weld to the sq. tubing.
I can clamp this to my rolling bench or put it in a vise on the other bench.

For an emory cloth mandrel i use aluminum, alumnabronze, or steel rod. The split rod is an old trick i learned from a machinest buddy long ago.
A plumbers supply has rolls of emory cloth locally.

A foredom tool is great, after using a big die grinder for head porting years ago a foredom is a comfortable precision grinder, polisher, toenail trimmer. Everybody needs one.


----------



## Spokerider (Oct 24, 2014)

Will you guys please have a look at this 266SE cylinder pic, and tell me if it will be "salvageable"? Below the intake port is the worst. The local saw shop mechanic said "no, too much scoring"
If yes, it looks like I'll be shopping for yet another tool, lol. If not.........anybody have a good used 266SE cylinder?


----------



## nikb47 (Oct 24, 2014)

I'd say yes


----------



## tpope (Oct 24, 2014)

Spokerider said:


> Will you guys please have a look at this 266SE cylinder pic, and tell me if it will be "salvageable"? Below the intake port is the worst. The local saw shop mechanic said "no, too much scoring"
> If yes, it looks like I'll be shopping for yet another tool, lol. If not.........anybody have a good used 266SE cylinder?


I would try cleaning it up before I worried about how bad it may be. It is very hard for my finger nails to tell the difference between built up aluminum and scored nicasil. Remove the aluminum then judge. If your pictures are of a cleaned cylinder, you'll probably need another one.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Oct 24, 2014)

Industrial cleaning supply shops will have a decent assortment of grit specs 
and possibly some nice soap/cleaning supplies.
The pads are more likely to be oriented to hand held cleaning or floor buffers,
But local demands will dictate what they stock or order, So it's definitely worth stopping
in if you can.


----------



## Mastermind (Oct 24, 2014)

That jug will clean up easily.

I never use stones in my tools. Diamond embedded burrs are better for the tools.

The RT angle handpieces I use are over 300.00 each.......no way I'm using a stone in those.


----------



## rattler362 (Oct 24, 2014)

I say it will and if it don't I might were a 268 top end is that I think will work pm me


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## jughead500 (Oct 24, 2014)

Hey spoke rider.that one won't be a problem to clean up.would have seen the 028 wb av cylinder I cleaned the other day.it was scored front and back.that has to be the first chrome bore I've been able to save.


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## Spokerider (Oct 24, 2014)

Sweet,
Thanks for the input. I just picked up the emery strip and a red scotch brite pad. Need to make a 1/4" madrel to accept the emory strips, for my air die grinder.

Speaking of which.........it seem nobody is using an air die grinder for this process, why? It IS difficult to regulate the speed somewhat, but I plan to run mine on say..... 50psi and see what the rpms are like, and if it's easier to slow down to near idle speed.

What are you guys using to get the carbon out of the cylinder ceiling?


----------



## jughead500 (Oct 24, 2014)

Most of the carbon comes out when you hone with the scotchbrite.at the squish band anyway.in the dome you'l have tov find another method.me.... We'll I just leave it.


----------



## Spokerider (Oct 24, 2014)

Got the 266SE cylinder done after making a madrel for the air die grinder. The air grinder worked well with the pressure dialed down to 60psi.


----------



## tpope (Oct 24, 2014)

Piston and ring new... run it like you stole it. Looks good and will work fine.


----------



## Red Amor (Oct 25, 2014)

Im very thankfull for this site and more so for this thread , and even more so for Randys being here to help , and please not to exclude many others who offer great help and advise , thankyou all yeah ;o)


----------



## rattler362 (Oct 25, 2014)

Nice!


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## Sty57 (Nov 13, 2014)

I just read this post last night and it was great.
I just wanted to share with some of you that were asking about making the mandrels and how to do it. 
I work in a Fab shop that builds excavator buckets and attachments and we make a lot of these for cleaning out the bores after welding and paint. what we use is a "split rollpin" and weld it to the shaft of old stone wheels. We always save the old stones after they are to small to use and take a hammer smash it, clean it up and get a rollpin the size that you need and weld it on. if you don't have a welder and you can find the right size rollpin you could just pound it on and should be good to go. 

This is me loading one of the buckets we built this summer.


----------



## Sty57 (Nov 13, 2014)

This what I am talking about.
Not very pretty but it works.


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## R DeLawter (Nov 13, 2014)

Sty57 said:


> I just read this post last night and it was great.
> I just wanted to share with some of you that were asking about making the mandrels and how to do it.
> I work in a Fab shop that builds excavator buckets and attachments and we make a lot of these for cleaning out the bores after welding and paint. what we use is a "split rollpin" and weld it to the shaft of old stone wheels. We always save the old stones after they are to small to use and take a hammer smash it, clean it up and get a rollpin the size that you need and weld it on. if you don't have a welder and you can find the right size rollpin you could just pound it on and should be good to go.
> 
> This is me loading one of the buckets we built this summer.



That is a real nice looking excavator bucket.
After welding one of those up you would have to turn the heat down to weld that roll pin. ( haha )


----------



## lone wolf (Nov 13, 2014)

watsonr said:


> Do you always put your fingers out when holding the tool?
> 
> Got some good music going too, just need a glass of tea to top it off.
> 
> ...


Hack saw and a steel rod!


----------



## johnlhatfield1 (Nov 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> This is the stuff........


----------



## johnlhatfield1 (Nov 13, 2014)

GOODNESS Man;
You've got more tools than a dentist. Tells me that you are not a newbie. Thanks for sharing this with us. Mind telling us more about how you acquired these precision tools on ur bench? We're envious-LOL
regards,
JohnL


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Dec 13, 2014)

bump ,

Randy going to give this a try today thanks for sharing.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Dec 13, 2014)

johnlhatfield1 said:


> GOODNESS Man;
> You've got more tools than a dentist. Tells me that you are not a newbie. Thanks for sharing this with us. Mind telling us more about how you acquired these precision tools on ur bench? We're envious-LOL
> regards,
> JohnL



If you are a coffee drinker, then I'd say to brew a large pot and pull up your favorite web searcher and type in something like " arboristsite: mastermind meets "
That should get you some results along the lines of these.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/mastermind-meets-the-562xp.191622/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/mastermind-meets-the-jonsered-2095.197578/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/mastermind-meets-the-stihl-088.222188/page-2

and Sometimes it just sets off the crowd.....
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/mastermind-meets-the.197673/

There are other folks building and modding things here 
and some appear to be building some very stout runners. 

But getting some decent photos and the right choice of words
to describe what you've done, can be as much of a skill as the saw work itself.

Some guys threads will stay pretty much on the point and for some folks that may seem a bit dry to read.
So you can easily miss them and the details that may be that magic tweak that your hunting for.
Peoples use of localized jargon, abbreviations and misspellings (me included)
can make it a real bear to search for things on occasion.

But i'm just rambling and haven't added anything here, so...

if you ever begin to get tired of the reading and searching?
Just remind yourself of the efforts these folks put into learning it
and then the additional task of coming back to post it for us.


----------



## boxygen (Dec 13, 2014)

I did this today too. I got all the transfer off. However, I managed to sand through the plating around the exhaust port trying to remove some trouble area. Its not a lot but enough to make me question it. Is this going to be a problem if I put a new piston in it?


----------



## BGE541 (Jan 4, 2015)

rattler362 was kind enough to direct me here... this cyl is going to be my first major "transfer" project...


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 4, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> View attachment 391837
> rattler362 was kind enough to direct me here... this cyl is going to be my first major "transfer" project...



The one I did was not that bad. I can't see why it won't work.


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 6, 2015)

How do you make sure you don't hit the edges of the exhaust port with the sandpaper? Sorry if that is a stupid question, never done this before.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 6, 2015)

You just have to be careful...


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 6, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You just have to be careful...



Ok, thanks. I'm going to give this a shot.


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

So I'm having a tough time getting the last couple little spots of transfer which you can see one just below the exhaust port. 
It's really smooth and you can't feel the spot, so is it still necessary to get it completely off? 


Here was the before.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 10, 2015)

blk05crew said:


> So I'm having a tough time getting the last couple little spots of transfer which you can see one just below the exhaust port.
> It's really smooth and you can't feel the spot, so is it still necessary to get it completely off?
> View attachment 393295
> 
> ...


How again did u get the largest amount off? That looks about 100% better


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

KG441c said:


> How again did u get the largest amount off? That looks about 100% better



Thanks. 180 grit mostly on a piece of wooden dowel, then some 320 grit the same way and finally some red scotch brite pad by hand also.


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

Here's a pic after I just stopped. You can still see very small deposits but they are really smooth and don't seem to be getting any smaller anymore.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 10, 2015)

blk05crew said:


> So I'm having a tough time getting the last couple little spots of transfer which you can see one just below the exhaust port.
> It's really smooth and you can't feel the spot, so is it still necessary to get it completely off?
> View attachment 393295
> 
> ...


How again did u get the largest amount of


blk05crew said:


> Thanks. 180 grit mostly on a piece of wooden dowel, then some 320 grit the same way and finally some red scotch brite pad by hand also.





blk05crew said:


> Here's a pic after I just stopped. You can still see very small deposits but they are really smooth and don't seem to be getting any smaller anymore.
> 
> View attachment 393297


r u gonna flex hone or just the scotch brite to put the finishing touch on it?


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

Just scotch brite, do I need to do something else? I thought that was the last thing done in the videos on the original post. I could be wrong though. This is my first attempt at this.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 10, 2015)

Im not sure! Lol! Im trying to learn myself but I uusually do use a very light oil and just a very mild flex hone after cleaning a cylinder and giving new rings a new fresh surface for a set of rings to seat into. Always has worked for me but im sure scotchbrite is just as good and safer. You can overdo it quick with a flexhone


----------



## KG441c (Jan 10, 2015)

Id wait for Randy to make that call on your cylinder though


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Id wait for Randy to make that call on your cylinder though



That's what I was thinking haha! Cleaned up pretty good though so far.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 10, 2015)

blk05crew said:


> That's what I was thinking haha! Cleaned up pretty good though so far.


Yes it looks nice and Randy will give u good sound advice as he has seen and sees many saws everyday and knows whats best for them. When he gives advice I listen as that man has spent many hrs of his life inside the cylinders of these saws


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

I've been using a fine diamond burr it get those little spots. After burning thru the plating on a couple, I looked for a different way. 

Just find something that will hit the spots and only the spots.....


----------



## KG441c (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I've been using a fine diamond burr it get those little spots. After burning thru the plating on a couple, I looked for a different way.
> 
> Just find something that will hit the spots and only the spots.....


I see! Another little tip for the notebook!! Lol!!


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I've been using a fine diamond burr it get those little spots. After burning thru the plating on a couple, I looked for a different way.
> 
> Just find something that will hit the spots and only the spots.....



Thanks for the tip! I didn't have the tools you have Mastermind so I did it by had with the sandpaper on a wooden dowel. So i'll just get after it a little more today and focus on those spots.
So the sandpaper doesn't take too much metal off of the cylinder walls to make it not functional? How much does the sandpaper actually take off?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 10, 2015)

The sandpaper will barely scratch the plating......unless it's already worn, and you sand too long at a higher RPM than you can by hand. In other words......worry not.


----------



## blk05crew (Jan 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> The sandpaper will barely scratch the plating......unless it's already worn, and you sand too long at a higher RPM than you can by hand. In other words......worry not.



Awesome, thanks I appreciate the advice!


----------



## tntblaster14 (Mar 9, 2015)

I gotta say, I watched the vids, used 100, 120, 180, and 400 emory cloth, and then the mandrel and scotch brite polish. It worked BEAUTIFULLY and saved me from junking a perfectly usable cylinder. Thanks so much for this tutorial and the guys in the tradin post who encouraged me to clean it up vs buying an aftermarket replacement for my 346.


----------



## Bilge Rat LT 20 (Mar 10, 2015)

Everyone that has stopped doing acid while working on saws should be commended!

It would explain one of the pics in the 026 thread, Colors, patterns, oh my!!!

For those last little spots of transfer i used a 1/4" alumnabronze split rod and 180 grit emory . 
This rod is 7" long.
I use it in my hand, the long rod lays under your index finger back thru the palm giving you good control and pressure on the emory.

Thanks for sharing the knowledge.


----------



## jughead500 (Mar 10, 2015)

Bilge Rat LT 20 said:


> Everyone that has stopped doing acid while working on saws should be commended!


Yeah stopped acid a long time ago while working on cylinders.kept trying to remove Elfs snd Trolls along with the transfer.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2015)

You fellers ain't right.......



.....I like that.


----------



## jughead500 (Mar 10, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You fellers ain't right.......
> 
> 
> 
> .....I like that.


You would't believe how many of those phuckers can hide in a transfer port.. And they kept telling me i was using too much acid.kind scared me so i put the jug up.


----------



## toddol1971 (Mar 11, 2015)

[QUOTEJust find something that will hit the spots and only the spots.....[/QUOTE]

My wife says I have one of those


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2015)

Repped.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Mar 11, 2015)

when you start seeing a troll under those bridges (transfers),
that's when it's time for a little vacation.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2015)




----------



## HuskyHeadDave (Apr 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> This is the stuff........





Diggin' on the wigglesworth scotch brite device....running out to buy one immediately!


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Apr 4, 2015)

So What would I do with the muratic acid that I have.


----------



## Philbert (Apr 4, 2015)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> So What would I do with the muratic acid that I have.


Give it to someone with a swimming pool. 

Philbert


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Apr 4, 2015)

Never thought of that. Good idea


----------



## jughead500 (Apr 4, 2015)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Never thought of that. Good idea


Or give the whole gallon at one time to the neighbors with a pool that you dont like.lol


----------



## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

Working on a husqvarna 2100 cylinder that I'm going to be putting back on the saw with a new oem piston and new rings.
Here's a before pic of the transfer on the cylinder. Hit it mostly by hand with 150, 320 emery cloth and red scotch brite pad and then with a dremel and the same stuff. 




Here is after I got done. There are still a couple tiny spots that you can barely see, soooo good to run like this or keep on givin er and try and get the tiny spots out?


----------



## jughead500 (Jul 15, 2015)

Those tiny spots are pitting.it'll be ok to run like that.


----------



## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Those tiny spots are pitting.it'll be ok to run like that.



Awesome, thanks!


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 15, 2015)

On certain spots (when you are sure it's transfer) that are close to the port edge, and being stubborn, I use a small diamond burr. That way I can just hit that one spot without worrying about sanding thru at the port edge.


----------



## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> On certain spots (when you are sure it's transfer) that are close to the port edge, and being stubborn, I use a small diamond burr. That way I can just hit that one spot without worrying about sanding thru at the port edge.



Thanks, I'm not sure it's actually transfer, everything feels really smooth.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 15, 2015)

Looks like minor pitting to me, too. You could use a crayon or soft grease pencil to mark over the spots and then gently wipe with a paper towel to see if anything remains. If it all wipes away except at the spot(s) of interest, that''s a pretty good indication it's pitting and not still raised material.

Looks like a nice, clean job, btw.


----------



## Definitive Dave (Jul 15, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Looks like minor pitting to me, too. You could use a crayon or soft grease pencil to mark over the spots and then gently wipe with a paper towel to see if anything remains. If it all wipes away except at the spot(s) of interest, that''s a pretty good indication it's pitting and not still raised material.
> 
> Looks like a nice, clean job, btw.



*that right there is a great tip*


----------



## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

Great to


PogoInTheWoods said:


> Looks like minor pitting to me, too. You could use a crayon or soft grease pencil to mark over the spots and then gently wipe with a paper towel to see if anything remains. If it all wipes away except at the spot(s) of interest, that''s a pretty good indication it's pitting and not still raised material.
> 
> Looks like a nice, clean job, btw.



Great tip Poge, thanks!


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 15, 2015)

Why, thank you, Dave! You may also wanna take Randy up on his diamond burr tip for cleaning up a coupla of those little rough spots on your otherwise excellent "first try" porting job over in your new thread.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/my-first-attempt-at-porting-with-pics.282993/


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 15, 2015)

And thank you as well, Nate!


----------



## Mastermind (Jul 15, 2015)

I never thought of that. Thanks so much.


----------



## jughead500 (Jul 15, 2015)

That cylinder is a great example of one that more than likely would have been ruined with acid.


----------



## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

So reading through this whole post, if there is no raised transfer left and you don't go through the plating, the cylinder is good to go. Does anyone have a picture of a cylinder that has gone through the plating, just wondering what that looks like.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 15, 2015)

I'd say you're good to go and I'd run it without a worry based on your pics.

No pic to offer, but compromised plating is fairly obvious and appears as flaking (or being eaten away by careless acid treatment). Gouges are another thing and chips around the ports are yet another consideration. The little pits in your pics wouldn't concern me at all.

Ya did good.


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## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> I'd say you're good to go and I'd run it without a worry based on your pics.
> 
> No pic to offer, but compromised plating is fairly obvious and appears as flaking (or being eaten away by careless acid treatment). Gouges are another thing and chips around the ports are yet another consideration. The little pits in your pics wouldn't concern me at all.
> 
> Ya did good.



Thanks Poge, just curious more than anything, haven't seen compromised plating and wondered what it looked like.


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## Jeff Lary (Jul 15, 2015)

Great info Randy thanks for sharing with us all, I do have a question and if it has been asked I guess I missed it. How did you cut the slot in The spike for the Emory cloth to fit into? I was thinking Dremel but wont know till I try it,.. wondering if the slot would be too lose for the cloth using a Dremel to make the slot. Thanks Jeff


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## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> Great info Randy thanks for sharing with us all, I do have a question and if it has been asked I guess I missed it. How did you cut the slot in The spike for the Emory cloth to fit into? I was thinking Dremel but wont know till I try it,.. wondering if the slot would be too lose for the cloth using a Dremel to make the slot. Thanks Jeff



He said he used a hack saw but I'm sure you could use a Dremel.


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## Mastermind (Jul 15, 2015)

I use a hacksaw. Then you can squeeze it together tighter with pliers.


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## Jeff Lary (Jul 15, 2015)

Thanks I want to make one and was wondering how you did it. Thanks Jeff


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## jughead500 (Jul 15, 2015)

Worn plating won't be shiney.the underlying aluminum will have a definate duller look.if you have doubts soak the cylinder in an alkaline degreaser for a while and it will darken the aluminum.


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## nikb47 (Jul 15, 2015)

blk05crew said:


> So reading through this whole post, if there is no raised transfer left and you don't go through the plating, the cylinder is good to go. Does anyone have a picture of a cylinder that has gone through the plating, just wondering what that looks like.


From my experience if you are through the plating it will start to look a little gray in color instead of shiny.
Kind of like this.






Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## blk05crew (Jul 15, 2015)

nikb47 said:


> From my experience if you are through the plating it will start to look a little gray in color instead of shiny.
> Kind of like this.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks that is what I was looking for!

I'm not concerned about the one I just did, I just wanted a visual.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 15, 2015)

If you already have a Dremel, split mandrels are readily available, though not very practical for the application unless you also have the Dremel flex shaft attachment as the mandrels are relatively short....at least the ones I've seen.


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## Definitive Dave (Jul 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I use a hacksaw. Then you can squeeze it together tighter with pliers.



You mean to tell me that an evolved simian like yourself uses a hacksaw like a savage in a cave painting instead of a handy power tool for splitting your mandrel?
For shame good sir, for shame
DDave


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 15, 2015)

Then there's the pliers thing on top o' that......, yikes.


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## glock37 (Jul 15, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Then there's the pliers thing on top o' that......, yikes.




Butcher !!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jughead500 (Jul 15, 2015)




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## Mastermind (Jul 15, 2015)

Y'all are meanies.


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## rynosawr (Jul 15, 2015)

blk05crew said:


> So reading through this whole post, if there is no raised transfer left and you don't go through the plating, the cylinder is good to go. Does anyone have a picture of a cylinder that has gone through the plating, just wondering what that looks like.




Let me see if I can get some pics that will show what it looks like......

I had a total junk Husqvarna 55 cylinder that I was playing with just to see if I could pull a miracle on it....

well, it was cleaning up great and then I guess the transfer was too heavy all around the port edges and I was on the edges too long.... and it went through to aluminum.


You will easily be able to discern the different color and shine of the raw aluminum vs. the plating if you go through.





On a major side-note, I wanted to say thanks to Mastermind for sharing the technique without using muriatic acid....


using this technique, I have salvaged 4 cylinders so far that all turned out very nice and saved me a bunch of $$$$$$$


I really do honestly enjoy saving something that most shops would have just thrown in the trash and ordered a brand new part as a replacement.


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## jughead500 (Jul 15, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Y'all are meanies.


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## Blade (Jul 16, 2015)

Great video, and to be honest it's a method I would have never considered.

I've only ever used acid to clean, then finish up the cylinder bore using an AO 320 grit flex hone.

I have a couple of old cylinders I may have a play about with using your method, but wondering what sort of RPM is the air tool operating at?

Thanks again for providing a very simple method


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## Mastermind (Jul 16, 2015)

Blade said:


> Great video, and to be honest it's a method I would have never considered.
> 
> I've only ever used acid to clean, then finish up the cylinder bore using an AO 320 grit flex hone.
> 
> ...



I don't use any air tools (I hate the sound of them). It's a Foredom flex shaft tool. 18,000 max RPM with a foot pedal control.


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## cedarshark (Jul 16, 2015)

You can purchase slotted mandrels if you dont have the tools to make them.


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## cedarshark (Jul 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I don't use any air tools (I hate the sound of them). It's a Foredom flex shaft tool. 18,000 max RPM with a foot pedal control.



Randy, does the foot pedal control the speed, or is it just off/on ? I don't have the foot pedal and turning the Foredom on/off at the motor is cumbersome.


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## Mastermind (Jul 16, 2015)

The foot pedal is a must, it controls speed. About 40.00......


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## Agrarian (Jul 16, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I use a hacksaw. Then you can squeeze it together tighter with pliers.



I learned from this excellent post and I've been off acid for a year (pun intended). When making my slotted mandrel, I selected a 6" x 1/4" aluminum nail with the hope that if it were to hit the cylinder wall, it would be less likely to have any effect. It is also easier to cut the slot with a hacksaw and to turn it down to the 3/16" diameter the Fordham can handle.


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## rynosawr (Jul 16, 2015)

I used a steel nail and cut the slot a little shorter than the width of my Emory paper roll, I also roll up a lot of emery cloth so there is a big margin of safety and separation between my mandrel and the cylinder.

I roll off about 1 foot of cloth and use it until it is loaded up, then I cut off the loaded portion and go again.


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## Agrarian (Jul 16, 2015)

Slightly off topic but I use this same mandrel with emory cloth to remove any carbon build-up on the piston wrist pin bore. I always struggled inserting the piston pin when re-using a piston until I started hitting the pin bore briefly with emory cloth on the mandrel to remove any carbon that had built up. Doing this, the pins slide in by hand nice and tight just like those in a new kit.


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## arrow13 (Jul 25, 2015)

Agrarian said:


> Slightly off topic but I use this same mandrel with emory cloth to remove any carbon build-up on the piston wrist pin bore. I always struggled inserting the piston pin when re-using a piston until I started hitting the pin bore briefly with emory cloth on the mandrel to remove any carbon that had built up. Doing this, the pins slide in by hand nice and tight just like those in a new kit.


That's some pretty nice advice. I hadn't got that far yet in learning all there is to learn about repairing saw. I've used a steel spike with emery cloth on cylinders but hadn't thought about the piston pin. Thanks for the great tip!


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## Mastermind (Oct 1, 2015)

Bump for a true and dear friend.


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## jeff taswelder (Oct 22, 2015)

This is a great thread that has helped a LOT of people 

Wood it be possible for some one to make it a sticky please.  
or could some 1 let me know how to do it


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## Mastermind (Oct 22, 2015)

If we make it a sticky.....it will be stuck over on the sticky page and no one will be able to find it.


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## jeff taswelder (Oct 22, 2015)

OK 
Is it possible to make it stay on first page


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## Mastermind (Oct 22, 2015)

Just gotta keep bumping it. lol


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 22, 2015)

Or just go clean some cylinders and we'll handle the heavy lifting here. lol


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## Mastermind (Oct 22, 2015)

BUMP


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 22, 2015)




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## idiotwithasaw (Oct 24, 2015)

This thread should honestly be a sticky and always on the front page. Way too useful.


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## Mastermind (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm not sure there is a way to do that.......

I'll ask though.


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## Mastermind (Oct 26, 2015)

OK.......this thread is stuck.

Staff member svk said if it gets moved to the other page, just let him know and he'll move it back.


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## Philbert (Oct 26, 2015)

Gone from threads on aluminum transfer to transferring threads about aluminum transfer . . . . 

Philbert


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## rynosawr (Oct 26, 2015)

Just a question here.....

Randy and other experts using this method, have y'all found that certain brands have thicker plating than others in general?

I have successfully cleaned up/repaired around 10 Stihl cylinders of all kinds and ages, but, I have yet to remove the transfer on a Husky cylinder without going through the plating near the chamfers for the exhaust port.

Any tips on what I need to change??


Thanks as always!!!


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## Mastermind (Oct 26, 2015)

I have seen thinner plating in some jugs.

Not on OEM Husky jugs though, except for the 353, and 359. 

Make sure you don't allow your mandrel to tilt into the port at all.


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## jeff taswelder (Oct 26, 2015)

So there was a way to put it on front page 
And thanks Marstermind for looking into it More


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## rynosawr (Oct 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I have seen thinner plating in some jugs.
> 
> Not on OEM Husky jugs though, except for the 353, and 359.
> 
> Make sure you don't allow your mandrel to tilt into the port at all.




Thank You Sir!

I will keep an eye on the angle of the mandrel, I have been trying to keep it parallel to the cylinder but I think I am maybe applying too much pressure where the extra transfer may be built up next to the exhaust port.


I went through the plating on a very rough (mostly figured it was junk anyways) Husky 55 cylinder, and I barely went through a 266SE cylinder....

The 266SE cylinder is repairable by chamfering where it went through the plating without free porting the piston.



Have you tried using any kind of oil in the cylinder with good outcome to float away the transfer particles and keep the emory cloth more effective without as much pressure?


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## Mastermind (Oct 26, 2015)

Yes sir.......I use WD-40 sometimes.


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## RiverRat2 (Oct 26, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Yes sir.......I use WD-40 sometimes.


If I use any lube it's Marvel mystery oil for me But only cause my buddy's machine shop has a 5 gallon can of it and He said I can have all I want..... so free is good!!

This is a great tred, So Kudos go out to MM...... I have salvaged several classic/no longer made OEM cylinders with the technique's that the gun totin monkey has demonstrated there in.... Thanks Randy!!!


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## SteveSr (Oct 28, 2015)

Well after completely reading this entire thread... Yea, serious CAD here! I got some "experience" but didn't get the results I wanted.

I got some scrap 1/4 dia. hard brass rod and made a mandrel. The intention was to use my electric drill motor to turn the mandrel. Unfortunately, it only runs at 1200 RPM.

Mastermind can correct me if I am wrong but it appears that the theory of this method relies on the centrifugal force of the emery paper to slap against the cylinder and remove the transfer. This way the emery also self aligns with the cylinder and so avoids hitting any single spot and wearing through the plating. I don't think that you want to hit the cylinder with the rolled up emery paper.

Well, it appears that 1200 RPM isn't nearly enough speed to generate sufficient flapping pressure to do much good at transfer removal. I also bumped the cylinder a few times with the roll and it definitely made a mark but didn't appear to do any damage to the cylinder.

So where do I go from here? More RPM? More direct pressure?

I don't have a Foredom but do have a regular Dremel with the extension handpiece. The Dremel only takes up to 1/8" shafts which is way too small to try to split with a hacksaw to make a mandrel. Does anyone have any suggestions for split Dremel mandrels that would work well?

Thanks,

Steve


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## rynosawr (Oct 28, 2015)

SteveSr said:


> Well after completely reading this entire thread... Yea, serious CAD here! I got some "experience" but didn't get the results I wanted.
> 
> I got some scrap 1/4 dia. hard brass rod and made a mandrel. The intention was to use my electric drill motor to turn the mandrel. Unfortunately, it only runs at 1200 RPM.
> 
> ...





Try rolling up about two feet of Emory cloth on your mandrel and run it in your drill for now.

The low rpm (1200rpm) will work fine with some light pressure, and rolling up enough of the Emory cloth loosely makes a soft cylinder that lays flat on the cylinder wall without concentrating pressure on any one area.

Add some marvel oil or wd-40 as suggested above to keep your Emory cloth from loading up as fast. Cut off the loaded piece as soon as it is contaminated. 

You will see light scratches and they will get reduced every time you step up in grit from 120/240/320/400/red scotchbrite.

The rings have seated quickly and compression holds well on the saws I have repaired in this way. I pulled one apart after running and it looked awesome


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## SteveSr (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks for the suggestions. I had to hunt for Emory cloth and finally found it at an auto paint shop. It was only in 9"x12" sheets. so the longest strip I can try is now about 11.5". Where do you find your Emory cloth on a roll in different grits?

I also remembered the drill press and found that it will go to 3000 RPM. Tried that and it still didn't make a lot of difference. Seems to be not enough pressure. I am almost having better luck by hand but can't reach the top of the cylinder which is the worst part.

Anybody ever try any of the Dremel flapper wheels?


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## Philbert (Oct 28, 2015)

SteveSr said:


> Where do you find your Emory cloth on a roll in different grits?


Search for 'abrasive roll'.

Philbert


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## LowVolt (Oct 28, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Search for 'abrasive roll'.
> 
> Philbert


Yes search eBay. That is where I got mine.


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## blk05crew (Oct 29, 2015)

Cylinder off of the recent Husky 2100 parts saw I picked up doesn't look to bad. Not a lot of transfer, should clean up nice I think.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 29, 2015)

Here's my low RPM stuff.... mostly used for final or minimal abrasion applications. Pretty simple approach and selection, but certainly offers a variety of low RPM flexibility depending on the project at hand. The main ingredient is the eye bolt 'Wiggshone' as the mandrel for either Scotch-Brite material by itself, or a piece of inner tube wrapped through the eye bolt as a ramrod type stuffer to wrap Scoth-Brite (or other) material around in order to gain additional cylinder wall friction without getting too aggressive at low RPM and gouging anything. 3-M sells such attachments in various diameters as well, but even a used chunk of Scotch-Brite as a stuffer with a new chunk wrapped around it works great as in the second pic. You could chuck it up to a die grinder for additional RPM's, but I'm guessing the pads would shred at higher speeds before removing much aluminum x-fer. Haven't tried it, so maybe someone else will chime in if they've had good results.

The roll of emery cloth in the pic is common stuff in the welding supply area at Lowes or Home Depot and is thin enough to use with the small split Dremel mandrels, but the best approach for a Dremel mandrel is to use a larger diameter piece of stock for the slit end and have someone turn down the chuck end to fit the 1/8 collet.

I tried a flap wheel with a Dremel flex-shaft and found it to be effective at removing x-fer, but too specific in its area of effectiveness when I wanted a more general and easier to control method that covered a wider area, but less aggressively. Plus, the shafts on the ones I bought were a little too short for reaching very far into the cylinder comfortably without creating an undesirable angle resulting in a rather non-uniform result.




​


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## jerrycmorrow (Oct 29, 2015)

only problem with yours pogo is the scotch brite disintegrates quickly on open port cylinders. as how I know. just sayin


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 29, 2015)

It breaks down pretty quick in general, but works well and lasts longer in lower RPM situations if not being asked to do too much. The red chunk in the pic finished two open port Husky 55 cylinders and could probably do a couple more..., though I wouldn't push it.
I use it for finishing, not for the heavy lifting.


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## SteveSr (Oct 29, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Here's my low RPM stuff.... mostly used for final or minimal abrasion applications. Pretty simple approach and selection, but certainly offers a variety of low RPM flexibility depending on the project at hand. The main ingredient is the eye bolt 'Wiggshone' as the mandrel for either Scotch-Brite material by itself, or a piece of inner tube wrapped through the eye bolt as a ramrod type stuffer to wrap Scoth-Brite (or other) material around in order to gain additional cylinder wall friction without getting too aggressive at low RPM and gouging anything. 3-M sells such attachments in various diameters as well, but even a used chunk of Scotch-Brite as a stuffer with a new chunk wrapped around it works great as in the second pic. You could chuck it up to a die grinder for additional RPM's, but I'm guessing the pads would shred at higher speeds before removing much aluminum x-fer. Haven't tried it, so maybe someone else will chime in if they've had good results.
> 
> The roll of emery cloth in the pic is common stuff in the welding supply area at Lowes or Home Depot and is thin enough to use with the small split Dremel mandrels, but the best approach for a Dremel mandrel is to use a larger diameter piece of stock for the slit end and have someone turn down the chuck end to fit the 1/8 collet.
> 
> I tried a flap wheel with a Dremel flex-shaft and found it to be effective at removing x-fer, but too specific in its area of effectiveness when I wanted a more general and easier to control method that covered a wider area, but less aggressively. Plus, the shafts on the ones I bought were a little too short for reaching very far into the cylinder comfortably without creating an undesirable angle resulting in a rather non-uniform result.



Thanks for the suggestions. I may try some of them when I get a chance to get back on this project next week. I am beginning to give up on the Dremel. It has a lot of speed but no torque and the handpiece requires a fairly large diameter attachment to allow staying parallel to the cylinder walls which increases the torque requirement. I expect that I will be gaining more "experience" before this is all over. So far I have ended up with a really shiny cylinder without much transfer removal! :-(


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## Dan Forsh (Oct 30, 2015)

I would agree, give up on the Dremel. I had one to hand and thought that this would be the obvious tool to try this with, but pretty soon realised that I needed to scale things up to get a split mandrel with enough length to get into the cylinder deep enough. I ended up buying a cheap die grinder off ebay (already have a reasonable compressor) to do this. I found some round bar, I think I use something about 3-4mm diameter, which is big enough to be able to hacksaw a slot into easily for the emery cloth. I also use standard wet or dry in this (just tear it off in narrow strips to suit from a standard sheet). I haven't been able to find something like Mastermind's Scotchbrite spinner as the Roloc stuff I have found/bought doesn't have a long enough shaft on the mandrel, so I may try the eye bolt suggestion. The Roloc stuff is still good for cleaning up rusty old mufflers anyway.


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## SteveSr (Nov 1, 2015)

Dan Forsh said:


> I haven't been able to find something like Mastermind's Scotchbrite spinner as the Roloc stuff I have found/bought doesn't have a long enough shaft on the mandrel, so I may try the eye bolt suggestion. The Roloc stuff is still good for cleaning up rusty old mufflers anyway.


I have found information on the Roloc stuff on the web but haven't actually found one to buy yet. The Roloc mandrels seem to come in 1,2, and 3" diameters with several rubber hardness ratings. Mastermind has either found some that fit his cylinders of figured out a way to grind down the rubber mandrel to fit a particular cylinder. Grinding down rubber doesn't sound like fun to me. I did see a listing in the 3M Roloc catalog for a 1 1/2" (38mm) mandrel which would fit a 44mm 026/260 cylinder almost perfectly.

As far as a longer shaft goes 3M makes longer shafts for the Roloc mandrels or you can just use a longer 1/4-20 bolt and cut off the head and attach the remainder to the mandrel.

When I start to actually look for this stuff I'll let everybody know what I found. 3M sells this stuff into two different markets - Industrial finishing and Automotive body repair.


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## Philbert (Nov 1, 2015)

SteveSr said:


> I have found information on the Roloc stuff on the web but haven't actually found one to buy yet.


I used to work for 3M. They make _lots_ of variations of most of their products (one of their key strengths), but do a poor job of letting people find all of the stuff they make (one of their key weaknesses).

Roloc is just one of their families of mandrels, designed to be used with matching abrasive discs. They also sell similar mandrels that are smooth faced, for use with peel-and-stick/pressure-sensitive adhesive (PSA) discss, and others designed for hook-and-look ('Velcro') backed abrasives. Some of these mandrels have fixed length shafts, and some have threaded fittings designed to accept adaptors for a wide variety of industrial/automotive/wood finishing tools.

For this application, the Roloc brand is not important, since you are not using those discs. You could use any of a number of generic sanding mandrels, or even make your own, out of a thick piece of rubber, such as from a tire flap, tire sidewall, conveyor belt, snowthrower paddle, . . . etc. In fact, you could make them in custom sizes to fit a variety of different cylinder sizes.

Philbert


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## SteveSr (Nov 1, 2015)

Philbert said:


> I used to work for 3M. They make _lots_ of variations of most of their products (one of their key strengths), but do a poor job of letting people find all of the stuff they make (one of their key weaknesses).Philbert


Got that right! They must sell to BIG accounts mostly. Their web site truly sucks. Even if you know what you are looking for it is nearly impossible to find it! I spent the better part of a day trying to track down some of their #580 PSA reflective material.



Philbert said:


> For this application, the Roloc brand is not important, since you are not using those discs. You could use any of a number of generic sanding mandrels, or even make your own, out of a thick piece of rubber, such as from a tire flap, tire sidewall, conveyor belt, snowthrower paddle, . . . etc. In fact, you could make them in custom sizes to fit a variety of different cylinder sizes. Philbert


This is true but for most of this stuff I would rather spend a few bucks to just buy what I need than spend possibly hours making it.


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## SteveSr (Nov 1, 2015)

Well, I had a chance to try again this evening and actually produced some good results! I kept the drill press setup at 3000 RPM although I probably could have lowered the speed. The big key was aiming a small spotlight in the cylinder so that I could actually see what I was doing! You could also use one of the head mounted lights that are useful for camping and outdoor activities.

I learned that it takes significant pressure to cause any aluminum removal. Flapping emery won't do it! For technique I go back to the belt sander - NEVER stop moving the sander or in this case the cylinder! From the previous post I found an old 1 1/4" x 2" sanding drum which did a nice job of holding the red Scotchbrite material for the final polishing.

The red Scotchbrite left a nice finish on the cylinder walls. However I am concerned that it is a little too smooth for the rings to do a good job seating. I remember back to my 2-stroke motorcycle days that we wanted a somewhat rougher surface to seat the rings. However, these were steel rings and steel cylinder liners - no Nikasil here. So I would be interested in other thoughts on this.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned but probably should be is to thoroughly clean the finished cylinder to remove all of the leftover abrasive grit from the reconditioning process.


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## nstueve (Nov 2, 2015)

jerrycmorrow said:


> only problem with yours pogo is the scotch brite disintegrates quickly on open port cylinders. as how I know. just sayin


I use brake or large cylinder hones wrapped with the scotch brite. this helps glide over the open port cylinders better if you have the hone all the way in. Also make sure the scotch brite overlaps on the sides so you don't slip the stone onto the cylinder lining. I make sure the scotch brite is over the end of the hone too so when I press all the way in it cleans the squish band for better readings.


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## sunfish (Nov 2, 2015)

This 357xp cylinder was questionable, so figured I'd give it a shot. Removed a little platting around the exhaust port. Is this goin to be a problem?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Nov 2, 2015)

Should be cool if the chamfer is smooth enough, but others may disagree. Definitely an art form for some guys.


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## sunfish (Nov 2, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Should be cool if the chamfer is smooth enough, but others may disagree. Definitely an art form for some guys.


Thanks. I'm pretty good at most all metal working, but cleaning chainsaw cylinders ain't for me.

I'll likely give it a go unless the masses say oh hell no.


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## rattler362 (Nov 2, 2015)

If it were my saw Don I would run it.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## 71dart (Nov 2, 2015)

That's a good question, Sunfish. I have a husky 55 cylinder that turned out about like that and I've been curious. I need to find a old, abandoned 55 to test it out on.





sunfish said:


> This 357xp cylinder was questionable, so figured I'd give it a shot. Removed a little platting around the exhaust port. Is this goin to be a problem?


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## Mastermind (Nov 3, 2015)

I worry that the plating will peel off.

But.......it might not.


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## sunfish (Nov 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I worry that the plating will peel off.
> 
> But.......it might not.


If it peels off, it'll just get blown out the muffler, right? No harm no foul...


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## Mastermind (Nov 3, 2015)

sunfish said:


> If it peels off, it'll just get blown out the muffler, right? No harm no foul...



It will scuff the piston......but yeah, no great big deal.


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## sunfish (Nov 3, 2015)

OK< this cylinder will be experiential, an stuff.


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## nstueve (Nov 3, 2015)

I have had that happen on a couple cylinders. I usually use my foredom to take the exhaust down a few degrees and re-bevel the edge so it won't peel. Is this good??? probably messes with the power band a little but I feel better knowing it has less chance of shredding a new $40+ piston. 

Am I wrong? Randy??? thoughts?


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## Mastermind (Nov 3, 2015)

nstueve said:


> I have had that happen on a couple cylinders. I usually use my foredom to take the exhaust down a few degrees and re-bevel the edge so it won't peel. Is this good??? probably messes with the power band a little but I feel better knowing it has less chance of shredding a new $40+ piston.
> 
> Am I wrong? Randy??? thoughts?



As long as it doesn't free port, and it runs. Well.......that's a hell of a lot better than pitching a jug in the trash.


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## nstueve (Nov 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> As long as it doesn't free port, and it runs. Well.......that's a hell of a lot better than pitching a jug in the trash.


where would that affect power in the saw? I know raising the top of the exhaust gives more RPM and less torque and vice versa for lowering it... What does lowering the floor of the exhaust do???

Just trying to learn more...


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## Mastermind (Nov 3, 2015)

It does nothing really. As long as the piston skirt doesn't end up into the port.


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## nstueve (Nov 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> It does nothing really. As long as the piston skirt doesn't end up into the port.


sweet. So no freeport = no problem!


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## sunfish (Nov 3, 2015)

The top of the port is not much concern, as I probably have room to raise it enough to clear the problem. The jug will be lowered any way.

The bottom of the port is where the concern is, as I wouldn't want to grind any out of there. We'll see how close to bottom of the skirt is to it.


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## nstueve (Nov 3, 2015)

sunfish said:


> The top of the port is not much concern, as I probably have room to raise it enough to clear the problem. The jug will be lowered any way.
> 
> The bottom of the port is where the concern is, as I wouldn't want to grind any out of there. We'll see how close to bottom of the skirt is to it.


I have a small jar of machine bluing that has a small "nail brush" attached to the lid. I will probably use that to mark the bottom of the skirt at TDC with cylinder in it's final position to see how much skirt I have left to play with. I figure I can pull the jug once the bluing is dried and I know exactly how much is left.

Randy,
How much overlap should one leave on the bottom of a piston skirt? I would assume you probably want 0.075-0.10" or more to keep the skirt closed against the cylinder wall???


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 3, 2015)

I just look at it thru the exhaust port Nathan. If it is covering at all it will be fine.


----------



## nstueve (Nov 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I just look at it thru the exhaust port Nathan. If it is covering at all it will be fine.


I was just saying that would be a good way to "pre-check" to make sure you have room to take the bottom of the exhaust down. Grinding first and checking later might end up in a free porting situation. Also you probably don't want to be so close to free porting that you catch the bottom of the skirt on the exhaust. Very unlikely, but better safe than sorry i guess...


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 3, 2015)

Ah.........just use a pencil.


----------



## jetmd (Nov 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Ah.........just use a pencil



Same thing the Russian's said after the USA spend over a million dollars on ink pens that would write
in zero gravity!


----------



## alexcagle (Nov 8, 2015)

A 502 or 503 dremel paddle wheel works great as well.


----------



## erikvr (Nov 10, 2015)

Is 80 grit not too coarse?


----------



## Dan Forsh (Nov 10, 2015)

erikvr said:


> Is 80 grit not too coarse?



I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## Mastermind (Nov 10, 2015)

I use 80 grit to "get started''.


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## Dan Forsh (Nov 10, 2015)

Rough with a light touch then?


----------



## SteveSr (Nov 10, 2015)

alexcagle said:


> A 502 or 503 dremel paddle wheel works great as well.


I had one of these (80 grit) in my Dremel box and I tried it with my recent cylinder salvage project. I had kind of mixed results. The edges of the individual sheets of abrasive do all of the work and tend to wear out rather quickly. Adding more pressure will expose more of the sheet. However, this is kind of a loosing game for a regular high-speed low-torque Dremel as it will quickly overload and slow down the tool. It may work much better in a Foredom or similar tool. The other issue is the short shaft which makes it hard to get all of the way up into most cylinders unless you have a flexible shaft tool.

I finally had success with a home-made 1/4" split mandrel in the drill press and hand holding the cylinder. The main thing is to get some light in there so that you can see what you are doing!


----------



## racerjohnbf (Nov 10, 2015)

This is my first attemp at cleaning up jug, it's off a project ms460. Does it look usable? Looks like I took off a bit of plating below the exaust port and it looks like a chip missing obove it. The chip was already there and the lines appear to be scoring. I can only really feel one of them with my fingernail.


----------



## Philbert (Nov 10, 2015)

SteveSr said:


> However, this is kind of a loosing game for a regular high-speed low-torque Dremel as it will quickly overload and slow down the tool. It may work much better in a Foredom or similar tool.


Another option might be to try a pneumatic die grinder, if you have an air compressor. These can be bought fairly cheaply, and have a lot more torque than a Dremel. Although, they do not offer the speed control or dexterity of a Foredom tool, they might be OK for this application.



Philbert


----------



## Dan Forsh (Nov 10, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Another option might be to try a pneumatic die grinder, if you have an air compressor. These can be bought fairly cheaply, and have a lot more torque than a Dremel. Although, they do not offer the speed control or dexterity of a Foredom tool, they might be OK for this application.
> View attachment 460151
> 
> 
> Philbert



That's exactly what I ended up buying, you're right on regarding control and handling, but it does the job.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Nov 10, 2015)

Yessir, Philbert.

Coincidentally..., I used one today at the saw shop where I'm doing some part-time duty lately. Worked great with just several wraps of emery paper on about a 3/8" diameter split mandrel around 6" long. More controllable than I expected with plenty of torque. The transfer wasn't bad and the cylinder cleaned up nicely in just a few minutes of heavy massaging with emery cloth, though a real nasty cylinder and some heavier grit abrasive would also be a fairly quick and easy process using a die grinder.
The guy swears by it, and I'm a believer now, myself. Also said he "thinks I may have one o' them Foredom things around here somewhere. Never liked it".

The hunt for that rascal begins tomorrow.


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## alexcagle (Nov 11, 2015)

I've been using them for years. This cylinder was really bad before. I think the 503 is 120 grit paddle wheel. If the nikasil is getting close to wearing through it might do so unless you are careful in the areas like below intake and above the exhaust port. When brand new, they are pretty aggressive, but they quickly tame down. You dang sure don't want to touch any minor bare aluminum defective spots, or they won't be minor for long.
If the aluminum transfer is really bad, and the cylinder design alows it, I'll hit it with a longer three stone hone and spray laquer thinner in a somewhat deep pool inside the cylinder and leave a spark plug in to keep it from draining out. The fluid facilitates the aluminum removal. It doesn't take much to get the worst knocked off, and makes it easier to finish with a Dremel paddle wheel. An example of one you can't do that on Is an 1127 series Stihl because of the open section of the lower transfer ports.


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## Adirondackstihl (Nov 12, 2015)

racerjohnbf said:


> This is my first attemp at cleaning up jug, it's off a project ms460. Does it look usable? Looks like I took off a bit of plating below the exaust port and it looks like a chip missing obove it. The chip was already there and the lines appear to be scoring. I can only really feel one of them with my fingernail. View attachment 460137


Id be nervous about snagging that plating above the exhaust


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## racerjohnbf (Nov 13, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Id be nervous about snagging that plating above the exhaust



Yeah that was one of my worries also... I've been wanting to try my hand at a little porting, could the port be raised high enough to get above the nick?

Thanks


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## Adirondackstihl (Nov 13, 2015)

racerjohnbf said:


> Yeah that was one of my worries also... I've been wanting to try my hand at a little porting, could the port be raised high enough to get above the nick?
> 
> Thanks



Maybe.
That's quite a distance.
Probably gain some RPM but sacrifice power.
I'm not a builder though


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## racerjohnbf (Nov 16, 2015)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Maybe.
> That's quite a distance.
> Probably gain some RPM but sacrifice power.
> I'm not a builder though


Thanks, I guess it will be a good jug to practice on.


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## Fairbanks (Nov 18, 2015)

Roto-Zip for sheet rock works also


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## sunfish (Nov 21, 2015)

I give!

Not goin to try cleaning up any more cylinders, or better yet, not buy any more saws with bad cylinders. Just went at a 346 cylinder with a bunch of transfer in it, worst I've seen, had aluminum flowing out the port. Got through the plating above the exhaust port. Oh yeah, don't use high end ceramic abrasives in these things!

I don't feel too bad about losing this cylinder though as it was pretty rough and likely beyond hope. Price paid for the saw hurts a bit though. As it also needs a tank, clutch, top cover and a few small parts.


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## Mastermind (Nov 22, 2015)

Don't give up Don. I lose a few too.


----------



## sunfish (Nov 22, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Don't give up Don. I lose a few too.


OK Randy, I wont give up, but I will try my best to avoid any more scored jugs.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Nov 22, 2015)

I just salvaged a pair of 357xp cylinders that looked really bad at the outset but cleaned right up. Then I discovered a gouge/chip in the plating just above the exhaust port under what appeared to be minimal x-fer on a 395xp cylinder I was _sure_ would clean up nicely to live another day. It's a ring snag just waiting to happen. Could possibly still be saved by some very careful/skillful grinding, but that's beyond my current skill set/experience and would probably cost as much to outsource as a new OEM jug anyway.

Ya win some, ya lose some...., but neither happens if ya jes quit!


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## PogoInTheWoods (Nov 29, 2015)

For those of you with a die grinder (or just a cordless drill) who may want to give this non-acid method a try and are seeking an easy solution for making a split mandrel to securely hold your abrasive of choice, I pissed up a rope for quite a while trying wood dowel, a barn nail, a fubar'd screwdriver..., just about anything I had laying around that I could sacrifice toward the cause and could still cut a slit through for starting a wrap of suitable abrasive paper that wouldn't either break the mandrel itself (the wood dowel), or be a real pain in the ass to cut..., just to have the abrasive of choice either tear or shred if it didn't just spin out of the slit in the first place. Was gettin' fed up with that, tho it did get the job done eventually. Anyway, I stopped by a local NAPA shop that does a lot of machining to see if I could snag some 1/4"~3/16" diameter aluminum scrap stock which would obviously be easier to slit/notch than what I'd already tried..., when I saw the light...., a piece of aluminum brake line/hydraulic line just sitting in a scrap box with my name on it. $2 for the three foot piece. Sold.

This stuff is 5/16" O.D., obviously very easy to cut, and is hollow...., which when slit to the desired length on one side only allows a roll (or ectra fold) of material to be inserted inside the tube which greatly improves the stability and longevity of the flap section of material wrapped around the outside of the tube. Wall thickness is plenty strong to chuck up into your drill or grinder and still lean on heavily for the torque factor. You can cut a wide slit all the way through it for Scotch-Brite stuff, shape it, flare it, thread it for whatever else you may want to creatively attach, etc. A six inch length provides nice reach into the cylinder while still giving a chuck plenty of grip.

If someone else already chimed in with the same suggestion 20 pages ago and I missed it, sorry for the repetition.

Otherwise, go get some brake line and give it a shot. Best approach I've tried so far (short of buying a Foredom).


----------



## Philbert (Nov 29, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> . . . a piece of aluminum brake line/hydraulic line . . . 5/16" O.D., obviously very easy to cut, and is hollow....,



Would it help to stuff a dowel rod, or some epoxy filler, up the other end, to resist crimping the tube in the chuck, or is it stiff enough?

Philbert


----------



## SteveSr (Nov 29, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Would it help to stuff a dowel rod, or some epoxy filler, up the other end, to resist crimping the tube in the chuck, or is it stiff enough?
> Philbert



It would depend on the material and wall thickness but couldn't hurt. I would vote for some glass or steel filled (JB Weld) epoxy.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Nov 29, 2015)

The radial compression of the chuck barely shows up as scuff marks in my particular situation, though there is a distinct, (but very shallow), indent in the stock at the top and bottom of each chuck grip location. It's a DeWalt key-less chuck setup and works just fine for the duty described, but I could certainly see an overly enthusiastic ham-fister with a larger drill or die grinder and a keyed chuck applying additional (and unnecessary) stress on the material to the extent that it may collapse...which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if it collapsed uniformly at each chuck grip point.

The other way to deal with such a concern would be to simply notch the tube at each chuck grip point to force a structural failure which would inadvertently facilitate a custom fit to the chuck of your particular drill or die grinder!

....or not.

But I digress...


----------



## Jon1212 (Dec 1, 2015)

@Mastermind thanks for this thread, your guidance, tutelage over the phone, and your friendship.

I picked up this 55 Rancher project for $20, as my first actual rebuild project.


I knew it had low compression so I figured I'd go ahead, and dig in.


Yep, not gonna keep that piston. Meteor is on its way from www.sawsalvage.com



Exhaust side as removed from saw. 

I lack the fancy tools, so I made some mandrels from wooden dowel material I found in one of my wife's craft bins, and used my corded hand drill. I also took the advice of @Four Paws and purchased an assortment pack of automotive sandpaper. I started with 180 to remove the bulk of the transfer, and then switched to 320 grit for smoothing. I still need to finish with a Red Scotchbrite pad.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 1, 2015)

Well done my friend.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 1, 2015)

Yep. Looks good. Now he needs to do this to keep it from happening again....after replacing the impulse tube, intake boot, and seals, (of course). I just assemble the intake components on these with the only fasteners being the two that secure the flange to the case. This is the weak spot on these saws. Some blame the threads in the plastic and the carb screws for the intake leak issue, but I've never found a leak between the carb and the flange even with the carb only moderately tightened to the assembly. The press fit of the components in the pic are almost always to blame for the intake leaks on this series...usually the impulse tube shrinking or the intake boot simply hardening or cracking. Another common problem is the impulse tube getting pinched when the connecting tube from the flange isn't centered when inserted which creates a slight pinch or fold at the connection during reassembly. Been there, done that.

Sorry for sidetracking the thread, but if you're gonna take the time to clean up a cylinder by any method, ya sure as hell don't wanna hafta just turn around and do it again cuz ya didn't take the time to figure out what burned it up in the first place. And I know I'm preachin' to the choir here for the most part, but for you guys who haven't got yourselves a vac/pressure test setup yet, do yourselves a huge favor and get one. It'll pay for itself the first time it saves you from burning up another top end.


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## Mastermind (Dec 1, 2015)

Side Tracking my ass. That's quality info sir. 

Jon.......you better pay attention right here.


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## Arborisjedi (Dec 3, 2015)

What's the best way to remove it from a piston? Mastermind could I just use the same technique you used. Like with find sandpaper lightly sand it away. I wouldn't want to go to far and make the piston worse. Can you even save Pistons like this. I've always just replaced them. I've ordered a new piston and a hone to clean up the jug. It's like smooth a butter. But I would like to get more life outta this one. Thanks all


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## VinceGU05 (Dec 3, 2015)

Would defiantly use that again. A bit of fine emery rub. New ring and make sure no burrs or build up in the groove so ring is nice and free. 


Sent from my iStihl.


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## Mastermind (Dec 3, 2015)

I agree........that piston will run. Try not to use sandpaper that sheds grit though.......you don't want it embedded in the piston.


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## Arborisjedi (Dec 3, 2015)

Thanks everyone I'll use a new piston ring and some very fine paper to remove the transfer from the piston. The cylinder is so smooth (no cross hatching)
So I'll need to hone it. Is there another way to do this like at the end of your YouTube video mastermind? 

Btw I've watched every video on your YouTube channel mastermind. Love your work and the knowledge you and others are happy to share


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## Arborisjedi (Dec 3, 2015)

Can someone have a look at this thread for me it's for that saw ^^ have question for removing the base gasket. Don't wanna take up this thread please and thank you

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/009-mods.289799/


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## Philbert (Dec 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I agree........that piston will run.


So what would you guys look for as a '_no-go_' on a piston, say for just a functional saw? 

Ring trapped in groove? Missing chunks? Deep grooves? Other?

I ask, because I have heard of pistons replaced due to 'skirt wear'.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Mastermind (Dec 3, 2015)

Arborisjedi said:


> Thanks everyone I'll use a new piston ring and some very fine paper to remove the transfer from the piston. The cylinder is so smooth (no cross hatching)
> So I'll need to hone it. Is there another way to do this like at the end of your YouTube video mastermind?
> 
> Btw I've watched every video on your YouTube channel mastermind. Love your work and the knowledge you and others are happy to share



Don't hone it......just scuff it a little with say 320 grit......by hand. Smooth bores aren't a bad thing on these type cylinders. 



Philbert said:


> So what would you guys look for as a '_no-go_' on a piston, say for just a functional saw?
> 
> Ring trapped in groove? Missing chunks? Deep grooves? Other?
> 
> ...



I'm sure you noticed that his piston had all the machine marks on it.....is was just scored in some isolated areas. That's why I would save it and reuse it. Now in a customers saw, or a saw I was planning to sell, I would get a new piston. But that piston will run fine.....

If the skirts are worn badly.......replace. 

Deep grooves? Trash can.......


----------



## Arborisjedi (Dec 4, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Don't hone it......just scuff it a little with say 320 grit......by hand. Smooth bores aren't a bad thing on these type cylinders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I cleaned up the piston today needs more work still thought I would show to make sure I haven't f&$ked it. And I've got 400 grit I'll use that to touch up the cylinder and go over the piston after I remore the transfer off


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2015)

Just be sure to get all the transfer off of the cylinder.


----------



## Arborisjedi (Dec 4, 2015)

Will do mate thanks everyone for the info/knowledge 
 Muchly appreciated


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2015)

I'd stop on the piston......I figure it's good enough. Just get a new rings and got cut stuff with it.


----------



## Jon1212 (Dec 4, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'd stop on the piston......I figure it's good enough. Just get a new rings and got cut stuff with it.



I see you likes to use the Engleesh.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2015)

Phuckin cell phones are shitty for typing.


----------



## Jon1212 (Dec 4, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Phuckin cell phones are shitty for typing.



Instead of typing with your big ol' fat thumbs, you should try using your skinny ass legs.

It might work more better, and stuff.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2015)

Jon1212 said:


> Instead of typing with your big ol' fat thumbs, you should try using your skinny ass legs.
> 
> It might work more better, and stuff.


----------



## Jon1212 (Dec 4, 2015)

Mastermind said:


>



 and to think we might be neighbors.....


----------



## VinceGU05 (Dec 5, 2015)

Jon1212 said:


> and to think we might be neighbors.....


 I am sure he will introduce you to his lady friend. [emoji6]


Sent from my iStihl.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2015)

Jon1212 said:


> and to think we might be neighbors.....



So the job in Oneida is looking good huh?


----------



## Jon1212 (Dec 5, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> So the job in Oneida is looking good huh?



Si.


----------



## Leeroy (Dec 10, 2015)

Maybe I have missed this but what should be done to clean any grit off cylinder afterwards?
Hoping to have an 066 running soon! Meteor piston should be here this week.


----------



## SteveSr (Dec 10, 2015)

Leeroy said:


> Maybe I have missed this but what should be done to clean any grit off cylinder afterwards?


Back when I was working with 2-stroke motorcycle jugs we would just use dish soap to cut the honing oil and water. This was followed by a thorough drying and a coat of light oil or WD-40 to prevent any rust before final assembly.


----------



## KG441c (Dec 10, 2015)

Carb cleaner, compressed air


----------



## KG441c (Dec 10, 2015)

Carb cleaner, compressed air


----------



## jerrycmorrow (Dec 10, 2015)

carb cleaner? compressed air?


----------



## kirkeg (Dec 19, 2015)

Great thread!
Thanks all


----------



## briantutt (Jan 2, 2016)

Just read this entire thread. Thank you MasterMind for putting this info and videos out there.

Contemplating the Harbor Freight grinder. They sent me a 20% off one item. Will I regret it?


----------



## briantutt (Jan 2, 2016)

What is the best way to get the Roloc mandrel down to the correct size? I am thinking just put it in the drill, put a belt sander in a vice to hold it and then just run the mandrel against the moving belt sander? If it was mentioned how to get that rubber mandrel down to size I missed it. Also, do you start with 2" or a 3" to make the walls of the roloc wider once at the correct diameter?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 2, 2016)

Just use different diameter Roloc mandrels and trim accordingly for 'general' diameters to handle a range of abrasive material thicknesses. It's more of a 'stuffer' for holding/rotating your abrasive of choice than anything else....nothing real precision. A rag or piece of inner-tube tied in a knot on the end of an eye bolt will effectively do the same thing for ya..


----------



## briantutt (Jan 2, 2016)

I hear ya, it just makes the scotch brite wedge up against the wall. Since I am starting from zero I will just grab a Roloc type mandrel, I was just curious how they are getting them down to size and still be nice and round. That's how I came up with the rotating roloc against moving belt sander idea.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 2, 2016)

Good idea, btw. I think Randy may have mentioned early on that he just trimmed em down with a razor knife or something similar.


----------



## briantutt (Jan 2, 2016)

I figured I would lose a digit doing that! Too clumsy! 

Brian


----------



## rynosawr (Jan 2, 2016)

Hey Brian!

I have fixed 20+ cylinders with this method so far, and I think I have only had 2 or 3 that were so far gone or gouged that they wouldn't salvage.

I am going to send Randy (Mastermind) a saw or a piston and cylinder to port just to show him some kind of gratitude, as he is one of the best on here about showing awesome techniques like this and sharing how porting works and what he does on different saws.

Most port artists hold their secrets very close to the chest but Mastermind openly shares his info, and yet he stays constantly booked on port work; that says a lot to me. He is a stand-up gent and so are several others on this forum.


----------



## Tor R (Jan 2, 2016)

Mastermind way to do it is absolutly brilliant, I've had several jugs who look awful but ending up to ben working jugs again thanks to him, last was a badly scored 254.

Have not seen Mastermind post for awhile, missing his post and posting style.


----------



## treesmith (Jan 5, 2016)

Tor R said:


> Mastermind way to do it is absolutly brilliant, I've had several jugs who look awful but ending up to ben working jugs again thanks to him, last was a badly scored 254.
> 
> Have not seen Mastermind post for awhile, missing his post and posting style.



I've been nothing but impressed with Randy's attitude to helping others, the way he shares information on porting and building, his build threads that bring people together, the sharing of knowledge and just having a good laugh doing it. He always takes the time to answer my stupid questions despite being a very busy man. 

When I came to this site I knew very little beyond using saws but reading his and others threads taught me so much, opened my eyes to a whole new world of chainsaw mods. After reading about ported saws and the highs/lows of the whos and hows, it was an easy decision. Yeah I could have gone with any other top quality builder, Dozer Dan, Terry Landrum, Stumpy or Tree Monkey who all had excellent reviews but ( and this is in no way knocking any other builder) Randy's attitude and helpfulness just sealed it.

Randy and his buddies really are a credit to the modding world, a very humble man and my "go to" builder. 

The amount of good he has brought this site is beyond count and a kind, giving, caring, community minded chicken legged, jean shorted man like that, who doesn't act like a two faced little ***** cry baby when criticised but will tell you to get stuffed and yet still help, is worth bloody fighting for.


My .02


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## briantutt (Jan 10, 2016)

Well here is my practice run slash first attempt at the MasterMind method. I think I ruined it. I made 2 mistakes I think. 1 I shouldn't have went in with the course grit around 80, 2 I should have listened better to what I read in this thread and stayed away from the edge of the port, more accuracy on just the transfer and less time.












Brian


----------



## briantutt (Jan 10, 2016)

Here is the 268 cylinder after being cleaned up. I am not going further, there is a tiny spot just above port on the left but I can't feel anything so I think it will run like this.

IS:






WAS:




Brian

Brian


----------



## old guy (Jan 10, 2016)

Im doing a 365 spcl closed port and there are still 2 specks of aluminum smaller than the periods and commas on this page, they are below the ex port and just below ring travel, I have been rubbing on these quite a while, do these absolutely have to go? Somebody, please my fingers are getting sore. 


John


----------



## Deererainman (Jan 11, 2016)

Pic's??


----------



## old guy (Jan 11, 2016)

No way I can get pics, I have to hold a lite just right and know where they are just to see them.

John


----------



## Deererainman (Jan 11, 2016)

I cleaned up an old McCulloch cylinder, had a couple of specs. Turned out good. I'd just make sure any large amounts of aluminum transfer is removed.


----------



## old guy (Jan 12, 2016)

Oh yeah, all the large amounts are long gone, these two tiny spots (.015) won't go away, I'm gonna leave em and put er together and see what happens.


----------



## GPX433Todd (Jan 14, 2016)

Another "what I thought was hopeless" cylinder saved with this process. And I was feeling down on my myself for buying a burnt up saw. C.A.D. now says I can purchase hogs ears and turn them into silk purses. 028Woody saved. Thanks Randy.

Todd


----------



## GPX433Todd (Jan 14, 2016)

I don't have before pics, but it was pure chaos for about 40% of the diameter.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Jan 14, 2016)

I thought this was sticked.


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## GPX433Todd (Jan 14, 2016)

Here's the piston from that 028.


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## old guy (Jan 14, 2016)

That one be gummed up ok, looks straight gassed, if the cyl. looked that bad you had a lot of work to do.

John


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## briantutt (Jan 14, 2016)

I am surprised it could even be salvaged! [emoji47] 

Brian


----------



## jerrycmorrow (Jan 14, 2016)

So got a question. Couple years ago I bought a gallon of acid for cleaning cylinders. Now that I use the non-acid method I'm stuck with a lot of acid. I suppose I could clean my 50 sf of sidewalk but what then? Any other uses? Really tired of stepping over this stuff. Any suggestions?


----------



## Philbert (Jan 14, 2016)

jerrycmorrow said:


> So got a question. Couple years ago I bought a gallon of acid for cleaning cylinders. . . Any other uses?


Muriatic acid? Sometimes used to etch concrete before painting or to clean swimming pools. Can be used to remove rust or rust stains. As always, use it carefully!

You might be able to give it away on CraigsList or FreeCycle, or drop it of at a county hazardous waste site.

Philbert


----------



## briantutt (Jan 14, 2016)

jerrycmorrow said:


> So got a question. Couple years ago I bought a gallon of acid for cleaning cylinders. Now that I use the non-acid method I'm stuck with a lot of acid. I suppose I could clean my 50 sf of sidewalk but what then? Any other uses? Really tired of stepping over this stuff. Any suggestions?


Just dump it out in the driveway or yard somewhere. Not like it's nuclear waste.

Brian


----------



## ssm1699 (Jun 3, 2016)

I just read through this entire thread and am very impressed with the results I have seen. I am going to have to try this on my 029 Super cylinder that I pulled when I did the rebuild to a 039/390 p&c. I will be able to clean up the piston and put new rings on it too.


----------



## HuskyHeadDave (Jun 3, 2016)

briantutt said:


> Just dump it out in the driveway or yard somewhere. Not like it's nuclear waste.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## HuskyHeadDave (Jun 21, 2016)

GPX433Todd said:


> Here's the piston from that 028.View attachment 478574




That just needs some 320 grit dipped in "cold beer" for lube! LOL!!! Have you ever touched up a piston with a high grit wet/dry and ran it with any successful results???


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## HuskyHeadDave (Jun 21, 2016)

Hey guys ( Stihl Guys ). I need help! I got two 028's off eBay that were dead ducks. After pulling the jugs I could see the Pistons were toast on the exhaust side... I'm gonna assume carbon. These Pistons leave no room for any expansion of the exhaust port that I can see and I'm thinking about swapping in a solid plug to have some port room as these are the most restrictive looking jugs I've run across. Anyway that's another topic... On the fuel lines/ intake boot especially and pulse line is there another model that will work on the 028... Will a 029 or 034 intake fit up? These are both the 44mm so basically a husky 350 in rough compare so it will be kinda cool to see how they run. Dropped base gasket and muffler port to help it breath a little bit? I was originally gonna swap in the 46 kit I picked up as daily deal at like $30 bucks but I noticed as I was just spinning the crank with the pull cord that the bottom of the piston skirt is a quit tight clearance...so I'm gonna just run them with the 44's. I'm gonna do one very lightly...more polished. The other might get the solid 44mm husky plug and lots of the available/extra material removed! Will any other intake boot fit these??? Fuel lines off 029 or 034. I might have the boot and with eight in them now and buying new plug kits for 40-50 bucks I don't want to get to carried away... Tuning up a hundred dollar saw


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## HuskyHeadDave (Jun 21, 2016)

briantutt said:


> Here is the 268 cylinder after being cleaned up. I am not going further, there is a tiny spot just above port on the left but I can't feel anything so I think it will run like this.
> 
> IS:
> 
> ...


@@@ what did you soak it in to decarbonize and clean prior to starting to work on it? #2... What was your final polish material or grit to make that shine like that??? Will you now take like a 500 wet/dry with light oil and try to hand (cross hatch) this jug so the rings can seat themselves?


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## HuskyHeadDave (Jun 22, 2016)

Mastermind said:


> This is the stuff........






That's awesome! And it has some tooth for the ring to seat... It's not polished too smooth!!! I take it you can reach into the jug threw intake and exahalst to clean them up like this too. I can't buy the 90 degree head yet!!!so I'm gonna try different size ball heads in tungsten to do the transfer ports... Ease then with emery paper...!!! Thanks for the vids...man!


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## GPX433Todd (Jun 22, 2016)

HuskyHeadDave said:


> That just needs some 320 grit dipped in "cold beer" for lube! LOL!!! Have you ever touched up a piston with a high grit wet/dry and ran it with any successful results???


I have not tried saving a piston yet.


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## hseII (Jun 22, 2016)

Mastermind said:


> This is the stuff........




And he looks so tall in the video: not father of LepraWookie height at all.


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## leecopland (Jun 23, 2016)

old guy said:


> Im doing a 365 spcl closed port and there are still 2 specks of aluminum smaller than the periods and commas on this page, they are below the ex port and just below ring travel, I have been rubbing on these quite a while, do these absolutely have to go? Somebody, please my fingers are getting sore.
> 
> 
> John


Run it like you stole it!


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## carpy929rr (Jun 23, 2016)

Do you still use acid on a cylinder that has deep scratches? Like one that was seized. 
Great thread!


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## Philbert (Jun 24, 2016)

carpy929rr said:


> Do you still use acid on a cylinder that has deep scratches? Like one that was seized.
> Great thread!


If it has deep scratches, through the plating, the acid will eat the cylinder itself, instead of the alloy transferred from the piston. 

Philbert


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## CristiRo (May 4, 2017)

Hello!
Could this cylinder be saved? Is from a Jonsered 2258.
What should I use to clean it out?


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## pioneerguy600 (May 4, 2017)

Looks like a buffing with Scotchbrite would be enough to clean that cylinder.


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## Adirondackstihl (May 4, 2017)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Looks like a buffing with Scotchbrite would be enough to clean that cylinder.


^ this


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## CristiRo (May 4, 2017)

Thank you guys for helping me!
Cleand the cylinder, the best I could!


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## alexcagle (May 4, 2017)

That cylinder looks good. 
My rule is to feel without looking..... (that's what _She said).....lol_
If you feel it, then at the microscopic level it's a gorge. However, carbon and oil will help to seal it up over time, somewhat.


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## CristiRo (May 4, 2017)

Now i'm waiting the ring. 
Ordered one at the local dealer for 10$. 
I'Ll run from now on 33:1, synthetic oil. ULTRA from Sthil!


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## jughead500 (May 5, 2017)

CristiRo said:


> Now i'm waiting the ring.
> Ordered one at the local dealer for 10$.
> I'Ll run from now on 33:1, synthetic oil. ULTRA from Sthil!


if you run ultra possibly be prepared for a massive headache.


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## Adirondackstihl (May 5, 2017)

Ultra is some of the dirtiest oils out there IMO.
And probably the worst smelling to boot.


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## DexterDay (May 5, 2017)

Adirondackstihl said:


> Ultra is some of the dirtiest oils out there IMO.
> And probably the worst smelling to boot.



X3... Smells horrible. And definitely not the best oil in my opinion


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## PogoInTheWoods (May 5, 2017)

Oil thread!!!


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## briantutt (May 5, 2017)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Oil thread!!!


+1

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## LegDeLimber (May 10, 2017)

CristiRo (and everyone else) Be sure to remove that decompression valve and remove the spark plug, 
then carefully clean flush out ALL of the remaining residue from cleaning the cylinder.

The cleaning pad will leave some (abrasive) grit behind, trapped in the crevices of the the decomp valve.
This will also be in and around the threads of the spark plug and the decomp valve.

We wouldn't want to run the engine with that gunk still in the cylinder.
That would negate all of our work when it scarred the cylinder and piston.


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## dmb2613 (Jan 7, 2018)

Best thread I have read here


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## CristiRo (Jan 8, 2018)

LegDeLimber said:


> CristiRo (and everyone else) Be sure to remove that decompression valve and remove the spark plug,
> then carefully clean flush out ALL of the remaining residue from cleaning the cylinder.
> 
> The cleaning pad will leave some (abrasive) grit behind, trapped in the crevices of the the decomp valve.
> ...



That's what I just did. 
I also had to clean de carbon build up in the combustion chamber, so the decomp valve and sparg plug had to be taken out. 
All the best!


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## bomar (Jan 19, 2019)

What did you clean/flush the grit out with


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## lone wolf (Jan 19, 2019)

bomar said:


> What did you clean/flush the grit out with


hot soapy water ,rinse then carb cleaner then a white cloth to see if its clean then oil it.


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## alexcagle (Jan 19, 2019)

I use lacquer thinner, then blow it out with compressed air. (Shield the eyes).
Same for the crankcase. Three or four dump outs on a papertowel first, then blow it out. 
Just don't forget to squirt some 2 stroke oil on the bearings before going back together, or the lower rod bearing might go up in a puff of white hot smoke in three seconds.


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## SteveSr (Jan 19, 2019)

bomar said:


> What did you clean/flush the grit out with


I have successfully used brake cleaner to loosen oil impregnated residue followed by Dawn dish soap and water or just the Dawn. Dry thoroughly and re-oil. This is more important with cast iron bores. Don't know about Nikasil.


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## Allar (Jan 30, 2019)

Hey guys.
I need some advice on what to do with this cylinder, it's from Jonsered 2045/husqvarna 45.

Never done any work on the cylinder before. Is it looking bad?

I'm planing on buying meteor piston and puting it onto jonsered 2041.


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## Jeff Lary (Jan 30, 2019)

just my opinion so you will get what you paid for with me, but I think it is toast.


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## SteveSr (Jan 30, 2019)

Looks like something got into the cylinder and hammered the roof of the port. Missing any bearings or carriers? Whatever hammered the port likely pushed aluminum material into the bore that will catch a new ring. Can't tell if the plating is gone above the port of if that is just transfer. At the minimum you need to figure out if you can fix that port roof... But first figure out exactly WHAT got into the cylinder in the first place.


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## Allar (Jan 31, 2019)

Thanks.

I don't really need to figure out what happened to it because i'm puting the cylinder on the different chainsaw.
But yeah the piston had a really deep and wide groove and i also figured that something must have fallen into the cylinder. I'm not sure if a loose carbon would do such damage but that would make sense.

if i touch the cylinder with my finger ,i can't really feel anything :/


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## briantutt (Feb 3, 2019)

Allar said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I don't really need to figure out what happened to it because i'm puting the cylinder on the different chainsaw.
> But yeah the piston had a really deep and wide groove and i also figured that something must have fallen into the cylinder. I'm not sure if a loose carbon would do such damage but that would make sense.
> ...


Run a scotchbrite pad on and arbor in there with WD40 and then you will see if any aluminum is transferred 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

Hey guys.i have tried to clean my pm 700 cylinder arter watching mr Randy's,i think,video.Could you tell me if i can use it and put some money to rebuild the saw ?


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## Del_ (Feb 3, 2019)

dmb2613 said:


> Best thread I have read here



Awesome thread!


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## briantutt (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> Hey guys.i have tried to clean my pm 700 cylinder arter watching mr Randy's,i think,video.Could you tell me if i can use it and put some money to rebuild the saw ?


Its a little tough to tell from the picture, are those lines aluminum transfer or gouges? If it is transferr try Randy's method with emery cloth. Be careful use maybe 200 grit and almost no pressure, it comes off real fast. If they are gouges I think it is toast.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

briantutt said:


> Its a little tough to tell from the picture, are those lines aluminum transfer or gouges? If it is transferr try Randy's method with emery cloth. Be careful use maybe 200 grit and almost no pressure, it comes off real fast. If they are gouges I think it is toast.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk





briantutt said:


> Its a little tough to tell from the picture, are those lines aluminum transfer or gouges? If it is transferr try Randy's method with emery cloth. Be careful use maybe 200 grit and almost no pressure, it comes off real fast. If they are gouges I think it is toast.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I have wet sanded with a dremel and 320 sand paper and after scotch brite with wd-40.That is the result.


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## briantutt (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> I have wet sanded with a dremel and 320 sand paper and after scotch brite with wd-40.That is the result.


Ah, so those are gouges then huh? 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

briantutt said:


> Ah, so those are gouges then huh?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


 Isuppose so.I have no experience.It was a mess before cleaning it Have a look


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## briantutt (Feb 3, 2019)

The top picture in post 489 makes me think it is shot because it looks like there is liner removed where the ring wont seat. Just my opinion.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

briantutt said:


> The top picture in post 489 makes me think it is shot because it looks like there is liner removed where the ring wont seat. Just my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk





briantutt said:


> The top picture in post 489 makes me think it is shot because it looks like there is liner removed where the ring wont seat. Just my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Thanks for your help.Costs too much to replate it and finding another is difficult and would cost even more.I hoped i could fix it with piston and rings replacement


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## briantutt (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> Thanks for your help.Costs too much to replate it and finding another is difficult and would cost even more.I hoped i could fix it with piston and rings replacement


Hopefully some of the other guys will chime in. I know some guys have ran cylinders that look not pristine and they work so maybe there is a little hope.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> Thanks for your help.Costs too much to replate it and finding another is difficult and would cost even more.I hoped i could fix it with piston and rings replacement



Just run it Jim above the ports is ok. I think it could run


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> Just run it Jim above the ports is ok. I think it could run


Hey jethro.how are you?Too much heat there,i hear from the news.i keep asking because it needs a lot of parts (ignition,seals,piston kit,gas-oil gaskets,carb kit,fuel line-filter etc).I do not mind paying for them as long it is going to run ok.


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> Hey jethro.how are you?Too much heat there,i hear from the news.i keep asking because it needs a lot of parts (ignition,seals,piston kit,gas-oil gaskets,carb kit,fuel line-filter etc).I do not mind paying for them as long it is going to run ok.



I'm good man thanks. Yes very hot here I'm halfway down the south island so not too bad.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/McCulloch-...824521?hash=item5ad04ded09:g:C54AAOxyOMdS7XPt
https://www.ebay.com/itm/genuine-Mc...544154&hash=item48be89b3ee:g:qIMAAOSw9g1cO5fV
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mc...321647&hash=item25cfc9817d:g:9KkAAOSwr~lYp5bw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mcculloch-...023732?hash=item4433a1e3b4:g:96MAAOSwH1pcQXtv
https://www.ebay.com/itm/McCulloch-...400593&hash=item1c2d2618dd:g:VhIAAOSwol5YzU2C

Alot of these guys may have a bunch of this stuff so if you message them and ask it mite save on shipping.

Bob Johnson has cylinder for 180US

I think it may run even that piston could run if the rings are free just throw a new set on it clean up the grooves real good. That cylinder from Bob has a piston and rings too so not a bad buy really.


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> I'm good man thanks. Yes very hot here I'm halfway down the south island so not too bad.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/McCulloch-...824521?hash=item5ad04ded09:g:C54AAOxyOMdS7XPt
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/genuine-Mc...544154&hash=item48be89b3ee:g:qIMAAOSw9g1cO5fV
> ...


I have cheched ebay,Mr Bob has email?I do not think i could talk with him on the phone.It takes me 5 min to write two sentences.If i i have to talk it will take me an hour and i would not probably understand him. Iol


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Feb 3, 2019)

Ahh right yeah he's phone only I think


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> Ahh right yeah he's phone only I think


At least me and mr Bob are on the same path when it comes to technology.The world is movinq ahead and we stand still.


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> At least me and mr Bob are on the same path when it comes to technology.The world is movinq ahead and we stand still.



Yea it's a changing world for sure


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> Yea it's a changing world for sure


And funny too.In 2019 i am reading a book for 2T engines written in 1970


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## Jimp1970 (Feb 3, 2019)

Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> Yea it's a changing world for sure


And funny too.In 2019 i am reading a book for 2T engines written in 1970


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Feb 3, 2019)

Jimp1970 said:


> And funny too.In 2019 i am reading a book for 2T engines written in 1970



Nice man I bet it's a good read


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Feb 3, 2019)

This thread is sill here? 

I'll be damned.


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## briantutt (Feb 15, 2019)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> This thread is sill here?
> 
> I'll be damned.


Of course it is! Too much excellent info to let it fade away.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 16, 2019)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> This thread is sill here?
> 
> I'll be damned.



Lurker.


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