# Aftermarket Cylinder... good and bad... the Truth!



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Been lots of talk lately of aftermarket parts, specifically cylinders and pistons and honestly some pretty bad pictures of junk! We all see posts of failed stuff and hear some of great experiences. Since joining this site years ago, like most you for some advise, I realized that the market didn't hold much promise of good quality aftermarket stuff until here lately. I was presented an opportunity to become a sponsor and sell some chainsaw parts. Like you, tired of being raked over the coals for parts cost and I started really digging.

You all can recall the recent exchanges between members here about the Meteor cylinder kit that I sent to Brad Snelling for a test run.... and after heated discussion and a little persuasion, the test revealed that they are much improved! Not perfect but very much improved in the last several years. Plug and play for most, always modified by a builder!

Today, I'm going to show you some pictures and tell you what I've found. I said in an earlier post several months ago that I want to make a difference and believe I can! Serious discussions have occurred, a lot of digging thru the BS to find the real answer and what really happens. Most know that these pistons and cylinders are only made in a couple manufacturing plants. Most re-brand the parts, box them up and send them out as there own.... even thought they are made in the same factory to the same spec! You need to know that quality in some are horrible and pretty darn good in others and it's really about the grade of that quality that is presented to you in the reflection of the price...PERIOD! Pay for lesser quality (grade B or C) and receive a lower grade of junk.... some will say. Buy grade A, pay a premium price.

You may even ask your supplier to reveal his supplier and most will not! They are afraid of someone closing the deal and being cut out of the line and rightfully so, here we go!

Meteor pistons and cylinders are considered the #1 aftermarket product and are sold at premium prices. They include Caber rings and are an extremely good quality cast iron ring. Just about any of the cast iron rings will perform well and I wouldn't sweat anything using any brand of cast ring. No need for pictures of Meteor products, they stand by themselves and pictures are everywhere. Here's what nobody will do... warranty them against failure.

This is a cylinder made in a factory far far away and is knocking on the door of Meteor, actually may have them already! The kit is extremely good, ports are the right shape, smooth castings and chamfered to prevent catching a ring. Pistons are really nice, perfectly shaped and like the others are plug and play. Nikasil coating is taking over, lower grade cylinders are still using chrome, everybody is heading to Nikasil. This first kit is made by HyWay and it's NICE! And it's on it's way to Randy for installation on a Husky 385. Clips are not that great, rings are cast.


























You can not go wrong with a kit like this... except they really aren't available... UNTIL NOW! And I'll give you a 90 day warranty against failure. I have them now and only in certain common sizes like 044/440, 460, 066, 372.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Next we have an un-know and I'm not going to reveal who, but they are as equally as good! They are slightly cheaper and do have split rings with them and clips that are wire formed. This kit is good! Piston and cylinder are finished very nice, good chamfering, port shape and finish is spot on, so is the piston! This kit will be offered with a replacement set of Caber rings and yes, I'll cover you on this one as well, 90 days against failure if you use the Caber rings... and I will not budge on the rings, you order this kit, the rings are sent automatically! This is a 660 kit.


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

How about some pictures of a windowed piston kit?

edit: You must have been uploading while I was posting. The 2nd kit has a much nicer combustion chamber than the WP kits from '08. I won't say the same about the piston, but it can be massaged. Neither of those pistons holds a candle to Meteor.

I went downstairs and grabbed my spare WP 066BB kit ('08). The combustion chamber is more symmetrical, hemispherical, larger and not as smooth as your example. The piston had already been massaged to reduce weight, but I can see some obvious differences. It would be interesting to see a current WP kit.....not trying to rain on your parade, but making some observations in regards to my older kit. What else would be interesting would be to have someone post up port timing/duration on various kits....


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Another kit, same manufacturer, great looking as the last one. AND any kit from this company will get the same warranty, 90 days against failure with Caber rings!


----------



## J_Arena (Jan 26, 2013)




----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 26, 2013)

Can you get them to move the ring locating pins in just a touch? I like the way the first OEM 394 pistons were. For those of us how like to extend the transfer way to the intake side it would be appreciated.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Last one, another great kit!!!






















Alright. A bunch of digging, a handful of really nice aftermarket kits and products with a warranty. You asked for good quality, someone is listening! I'm going to go one further than anybody that sells here.....

I'm giving a 90 day warranty on any Meteor kit I sell. The warranty is against failure, if it fails in 90 days, I'll send you a new kit. You present your invoice and failed part, I'll send you a new kit.

I'll do that same thing on any HyWay kit and any of the un-named kits I described and showed pictures of. You have to give me a few days to get the un-named kits in stock. I have HyWay kits and Meteor kits now, but not in every size. I'll try to get every size of whatever kit they offer and every kit will be inspected for quality before shipping.... every kit will have a good cast iron ring and if I don't think the rings are good, you get Cabers with them. I'll throw in a gasket set and most of them have seals included, they are good quality and last, I'll include a wrist pin bearing... that's the kit of your choosing, a gasket set, and the bearing.

Meteors are $149.99
HyWay's are $135.00
No-name's are $120

All are warrantied for 90 days against failure, return the cylinder, piston and rings and I'll send you another!
Meteor's and HyWays are ready to ship now! I'm traveling today to San Diego and then to Japan next week, might not be able to help you today, but I will as fast as possible.

Randy


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

J_Arena said:


>



You should look away.... or maybe you like paying for OEM $300 kits without a warranty when you don't buy a new saw?

I'm getting on a plane in 30 minutes, signing off!


----------



## woodyman (Jan 26, 2013)

I put a chinese p/c in my brothers 026 a couple months ago,NEVER AGAIN.I had to grind the bottom of the piston so it didn't hit the crank and I left out the base gasket and got a .041 squish.The skirt on the intake side was narrower that the exhaust side and the cylinder was chrome plated.I now have a paper weight and an OEM p/c on the way for him right now.You get what you pay for is a correct statement.


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

woodyman said:


> I put a chinese p/c in my brothers 026 a couple months ago,NEVER AGAIN.I had to grind the bottom of the piston so it didn't hit the crank and I left out the base gasket and got a .041 squish.The skirt on the intake side was narrower that the exhaust side and the cylinder was chrome plated.I now have a paper weight and an OEM p/c on the way for him right now.You get what you pay for is a correct statement.



woodyman,
I understand that you weren't happy with the purchase you made, but this AS Sponsor has already indicated that he will guarantee the kits he sells. If he doesn't keep his end of the bargain, he's just asking for a black eye here in a public forum. Give this man a chance!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Have you ckecked the squish bands and edges of the combustion chambers? The Husky pics in last kit look great. You've got some Stihl pics mixed in with them. The kit in the previous kit not so much.


----------



## woodyman (Jan 26, 2013)

excess650 said:


> woodyman,
> I understand that you weren't happy with the purchase you made, but this AS Sponsor has already indicated that he will guarantee the kits he sells. If he doesn't keep his end of the bargain, he's just asking for a black eye here in a public forum. Give this man a chance!


When I need another p/c I will check him out,unless I can find used OEM cheap.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Most suppliers are buying grade B kits because there cheap and failure rate doesn't matter! Nobody is giving a warranty because there cheap and easy to send a new one.... And then only if you complain about defects. Most don't even take the failed part back, they say keep it. Nobody wants to stand behind them. These three kits are Grade A quality, not the junk weve been forced to buy. Thats the truth. Give feedback on a run of 10 million kits and even at a failure of 100,000 is 1%... There not changing anything.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Nobody is giving a warranty because there cheap and easy to send a new one.... And then only if you complain about defects.



I'm confused about your warranty claims. I know that Baileys warranties theirs for at least that long.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Next we have an un-know and I'm not going to reveal who, but they are as equally as good! They are slightly cheaper and do have split rings with them and clips that are wire formed. This kit is good! Piston and cylinder are finished very nice, good chamfering, port shape and finish is spot on, so is the piston! This kit will be offered with a replacement set of Caber rings and yes, I'll cover you on this one as well, 90 days against failure if you use the Caber rings... and I will not budge on the rings, you order this kit, the rings are sent automatically! This is a 660 kit.



Don't you mean 046/460? I've never known the 660 to use 52mm rings. Also, that D-shaped combustion chamber is based on the old-school 046 jug.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Is that a ridge on the edge of the CC? It appears that part of the squish band was machined, but didn't go all the way into the CC.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Have you ckecked the squish bands and edges of the combustion chambers? The Husky pics in last kit look great. You've got some Stihl pics mixed in with them. The kit in the previous kit not so much.



Brad, these are the best three aftermarket kits on the market today! Even OEMs aren't perfect... But these are damn close! Both Randy and Jeremy have a HyWay kit and the no-names have been around here, but really never exposed. Actually, you may have even had one in your hands. I don't have them in front of me to feel it. I'm getting on a plane as I type this.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks for posting this Watsonr. I am a little bored with rebuilding, but I may dig something up just to check out your stuff.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

There are NO Stihl pictures in here! I took them out of the boxes myself, every one of them... These are that good!


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

I may have the numbers mixed up, I had a dozen cylinder kits in front of me.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I may have the numbers mixed up, I had a dozen cylinder kits in front of me.



There's no excuse for that, other than being old...


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> All are warrantied for 90 days against failure, return the cylinder, piston and rings and I'll send you another!
> Randy



Ok, lets run this one through about the warranty. 

Suppose the first one trashes itself in the first 5 minutes so you send me another one and it trashes itself in less then 2 tanks of fuel. 

What happens then? Are you going to send me another set and hope the 3rd times the charm? 

Suppose I feel the first two were junk and I would rather have my money back instead of taking a chance on another junk P/C? 

No bashing you here, I appreciate what you seem to be doing and that 1st set you put up does look pretty good. Now that other set that has the plastic still on it? That one looks just like the sets that I got from that other site sponsor and they were junk, junk, junk. If there from the same place I wouldnt touch em. I'm still stuck eating those other junk ones and there not tasting that well right now.


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't have any saws in need of rebuild at the moment. I wouldn't mind having an 046/460 or something larger, Stihl or Husky/Jonsered...not that I need it!:msp_scared:


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> There's no excuse for that, other than being old...



I wore my glasses for most of these, not all of them.

Brad, I said failure for warranty, not just defects. Any failure in 90 days and I'll replace it, FOR the record!


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Ok, lets run this one through about the warranty.
> 
> Suppose the first one trashes itself in the first 5 minutes so you send me another one and it trashes itself in less then 2 tanks of fuel.
> 
> ...



Should have bought one from me. That one in the wrapper is not the same as the one you got... Promise!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Should have bought one from me. That one in the wrapper is not the same as the one you got... Promise!



Just answer the question please...


----------



## DSS (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh goodie!:msp_sneaky:


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Just answer the question please...



At some point you assume you are dealing with a moron, refund the money, and take your losses.


----------



## russhd1997 (Jan 26, 2013)

opcorn:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> At some point you assume you are dealing with a moron, refund the money, and take your losses.



Are you implying that I'm a moron?


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Are you implying that I'm a moron?



Nope. But, I don't see you wrecking two or three kits in a row either.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Those wrapped cylinders are from a supplier not sold in the US that I know of. I'd send you another the first time and a different brand of your choice the third time or refund your money
.. your choice.
I am so tired of being ripped off, no customer service and they won't stand behind there products just like you experienced! I'm going to change that.... Promise!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> Nope. But, I don't see you wrecking two or three kits in a row either.



Well I was using myself for a example as I did have two bad kits in a row from another site sponsor who also told me that they stood behind there products. Seems there idea of standing behind there products is to just send me more junk instead of refunding my money back. That same saw now has 10 tanks on a new OEM top end on it so obviously the AM kits I got were junk. 

Talk is cheap it seems from them and I just want to see what Randy is going to do if someone else runs into the same situation that I did.

EDIT, I just seen he gave the correct answer while I was typing this.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> There are NO Stihl pictures in here! I took them out of the boxes myself, every one of them... These are that good!



I wasn't saying you had pictures of a Stihl brand cylinder. You have Husky and Stihl cylinders mixed up in the same post of the next to last kit you posted.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Those wrapped cylinders are from a supplier not sold in the US that I know of. I'd send you another the first time and a different brand of your choice the third time or refund your money
> .. your choice.
> I am so tired of being ripped off, no customer service and they won't stand behind there products just like you experienced! I'm going to change that.... Promise!



Randy, I wasnt trying to bust your balls, just putting it out there so you can be clear about it. 

Lets just say I'm still sore about dealing with those "other" folks.


----------



## steve316 (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't need a kit; if I did I would be sending you the money for one. You sound like you are trying to help out the guy who needs help and can't afford oem. good for you. Steve


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Well I was using myself for a example as I did have two bad kits in a row from another site sponsor who also told me that they stood behind there products. Seems there idea of standing behind there products is to just send me more junk instead of refunding my money back. That same saw now has 10 tanks on a new OEM top end on it so obviously the AM kits I got were junk.
> 
> Talk is cheap it seems from them and I just want to see what Randy is going to do if someone else runs into the same situation that I did.
> 
> EDIT, I just seen he gave the correct answer while I was typing this.



Was just about to say... My answer was pretty clear.

Like I said, you should have bought one from me. Just about every order I've filled has received a discount because I could. I hate crappy service, crappy parts and dishonest people... Weak people never do the right thing, sorry you found some!


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

Watsonr......You're doing the right thing......just don't sell anything to Brad or ModMark and you should be OK!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I'm traveling today to San Diego and then to Japan next week, might not be able to help you today, but I will as fast as possible.
> 
> Randy




While your over there, think you could get somebody who makes a AM Husky 350 piston to make some with windows in them so we could use them in Partner 5000's?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Watsonr......You're doing the right thing......just don't sell anything to Brad or ModMark and you should be OK!




Whats up with you, why not sell em to me? Long as they dont sell me junk, there would be no problem.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Was just about to say... My answer was pretty clear.
> 
> Like I said, you should have bought one from me. Just about every order I've filled has received a discount because I could. I hate crappy service, crappy parts and dishonest people... Weak people never do the right thing, sorry you found some!



Honestly, I didnt know you were in the business at that time. I miss alot it seems. 

No matter though at this point I dont think I will be putting any AM kits on other folks saws. They want to buy these creamsickles, let em pay dearly for the parts also as far as I'm concerned. 

Now a saw for myself I might go AM again...


----------



## watsonr (Jan 26, 2013)

I've done this while sitting in a plane or I'm the airport fry phone


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Whats up with you, why not sell em to me? Long as they dont sell me junk, there would be no problem.



You and Brad want OEM quality at AF price.......and complain the most! If I was selling kits, I'll tell you to go buy OEM.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> You and Brad want OEM quality at AF price.......and ##### the most! If I was selling kits, I'll tell you to go buy OEM.



Was that supposed to hurt? You're losing your touch, lol


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Was that supposed to hurt? You're losing your touch, lol



No!.....just calling it like I see it......Man, I sound just like you!:taped:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> You and Brad want OEM quality at AF price.......and ##### the most! If I was selling kits, I'll tell you to go buy OEM.



I dont know where you got that from, I never expected OEM quality, I guess I was wrong to expect a AM kit to make it all the way through a second tank of fuel? 

I really dont think I #####ed that much about it either, I kept all my comments in the thread that I started, till I wanted to hear what Randy would do if he was faced with the same situation that the other sponsor was. 

And dont worry Mr Ha Ha, I dont think you have to worry about me buying anything from you any time soon,. ####weed


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Ok, lets run this one through about the warranty.
> 
> Suppose the first one trashes itself in the first 5 minutes so you send me another one and it trashes itself in less then 2 tanks of fuel.
> 
> ...





I know you ate crap on that one.


How much did you stand to gain if that first "defective" cylinder held up?

Thinking you are going to make a buck, then losing bucks tend to do that to a fella.

Personally I have never turned a buck on chainsaw repairs, they just slowly drain me funds.


like they say, "want to make a small fortune in chainsaws? Then start with a large fortune".


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> No!.....just calling it like I see it......Man, I sound just like you!:taped:



Well, it didn't take you telling me for me to buy OEM.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> I know you ate crap on that one.
> 
> 
> How much did you stand to gain if that first "defective" cylinder held up?
> ...



Its not really anything to you if I made a fortune or not now is it? 

IF you would read and comprehend what you read, you would remember that I said I wasn't doing that job for money. 

It really dont surprise me that you cannot make any money working on chainsaws either.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> I dont know where you got that from, I never expected OEM quality, I guess I was wrong to expect a AM kit to make it all the way through a second tank of fuel?
> 
> I really dont think I #####ed that much about it either, I kept all my comments in the thread that I started, till I wanted to hear what Randy would do if he was faced with the same situation that the other sponsor was.
> 
> And dont worry Mr Ha Ha, I dont think you have to worry about me buying anything from you any time soon,. ####weed




You've been complaining about those 2 cylinders for I don't know how long. Like I said, Wastonr doesn't sell to you or Brad, and he'll be a much happier man.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi Markopcorn:


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> You've been complaining about those 2 cylinders for I don't know how long. Like I said, Wastonr doesn't sell to you or Brad, and he'll be a much happier man.



So, do you use questionable substandard parts in your hotsaws? That's what you're implying.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Hi Markopcorn:



Hey Brad!


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Its not really anything to you if I made a fortune or not now is it?
> 
> IF you would read and comprehend what you read, you would remember that I said I wasn't doing that job for money.
> 
> It really dont surprise me that you cannot make any money working on chainsaws either.



Panties still in a bind eh?


I don't make money on chainsaws because I do it for free.

Are you Snellings alter EGO?


----------



## naturelover (Jan 26, 2013)

opcorn:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> You've been complaining about those 2 cylinders for I don't know how long. Like I said, Wastonr doesn't sell to you or Brad, and he'll be a much happier man.



You forgot HAHAHAHA.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Panties still in a bind eh?
> 
> 
> I don't make money on chainsaws because I do it for free.
> ...



If that's what you call demanding a quality product, you can call me whatever you want.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Panties still in a bind eh?
> 
> 
> I don't make money on chainsaws because I do it for free.
> ...



Naw, just tired of stupid questions like how much did I stand to make....


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 26, 2013)

Nothing like an AM cylinder thread to get the #### slinging...


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Naw, just tired of stupid questions like how much did I stand to make....



Was not stupid at all.

Remember Mark, there are no "stupid" questions.


You thought you were going to turn a few Benjamins on that deal.

Didn't work out, so you air your dirty laundry and expect everyone to feel sorry for you.

I think it turned out just right, there is Karma!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Nothing like an AM cylinder thread to get the #### slinging...



Come on in, the waters fine.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Remember Mark, there are no "stupid" questions.



I guess your right no stupid questions, just stupid people asking them. :msp_smile:

What part of I wasn't doing that one for money don't you understand?


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> So, do you use questionable substandard parts in your hotsaws? That's what you're implying.



Brad.....You head is getting harder!!!!......I don't want you to buy Randy's "questionable" parts.......and he'll be much happier if you buzz-off!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

You guys are so pathetic, lol. You'd argue with a judge giving a not guilty verdict for murder


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Brad.....You head is getting harder!!!!......I don't want you to buy Randy's "questionable" parts.......and he'll be much happier if you buzz-off!



And we'd all be happier if you'd buzz off hahahahahahahahaha:jester:


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> And we'd all be happier if you'd buzz off hahahahahahahahaha:jester:



Not me:yoyo:


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Not me:yoyo:



As the saying goes, "Birds of a feather flock together.".


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> I guess your right no stupid questions, just stupid people asking them. :msp_smile:
> 
> What part of I wasn't doing that one for money don't you understand?



And when did you come to that conclusion?

Before or after that first one launched?

As for the sponsor you keep bashing (guess it is much easier to blame someone else for our shortcomings eh)


If it makes you feel better, the guys at work call me motard:msp_smile:


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

:arg:


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> As the saying goes, "Birds of a feather flock together.".



Yup,

Do you girls belong to the tight panty clique?


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> If it makes you feel better, the guys at work call me motard:msp_smile:



So you ride one of those?


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> And we'd all be happier if you'd buzz off hahahahahahahahaha:jester:



You'd miss me Numbskull!........Hahahahahahahaha! For-sure!


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

excess650 said:


> So you ride one of those?



I won't tell, you can't make me.

And you never saw me on that fat girl either:redface:


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 26, 2013)




----------



## Saw Dr. (Jan 26, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Nothing like an AM cylinder thread to get the #### slinging...



You can say that again. Like dumping blood in the shark tank. 

I was thinking of starting a thread called the autotune/m-tronic what saw should I buy to hone or not what oil ratio is best i love flippy caps what bar length should I use I soak my chains and like PPE aftermarket cylinder green chain sux mahle Stihl cylinder thread. Do you think anyone would respond?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Yup,
> 
> Do you girls belong to the tight panty clique?



I asked a question, and Randy didn't have an answer yet. Mark asked a question, and Randy answered it. DC is the one that came into this thread and took it sideways. Your kind cares nothing about truth, quality, or anything of the likes. All you're doing is looking for a fight. Myself, I find that cowardly and childish.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 26, 2013)

:msp_rolleyes: Must be Saturday night.


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Gologit said:


> :msp_rolleyes: Must be Saturday night.



And in the middle of winter at that. Me thinks there are a few too many brewskies under a few belts, lol.


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> I asked a question, and Randy didn't have an answer yet. Mark asked a question, and Randy answered it. DC is the one that came into this thread and took it sideways. Your kind cares nothing about truth, quality, or anything of the likes. All you're doing is looking for a fight. Myself, I find that cowardly and childish.



Oh brad you are full of yourself.

You call yourself a "builder" but if the part doesn't just screw on you are at a total loss.

A "real" builder can overcome these little issues.


You can call me names, but coming from a pathetic profiteer I will just consider the source.


----------



## naturelover (Jan 26, 2013)




----------



## Saw Dr. (Jan 26, 2013)

Gologit said:


> :msp_rolleyes: Must be Saturday night.



Quick! Everyone hide the beer!!! 5-0 is here.

J/K man. Looks like a long night for you.


----------



## WidowMaker1 (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> You'd miss me Numbskull!........Hahahahahahahaha! For-sure!



is that Freddy Mercury ......:hmm3grin2orange: I feel a bohemian rhapsody coming on


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> And in the middle of winter at that. Me thinks there are a few too many brewskies under a few belts, lol.



Guinness is like Koolaid.....nothin' to it! I refill Coors Light/Bud Light/Miller Light cans.


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> And in the middle of winter at that. Me thinks there are a few too many brewskies under a few belts, lol.



Diet Coke,

Straight up.


----------



## DSS (Jan 26, 2013)

Gologit said:


> :msp_rolleyes: Must be Saturday night.



I know, right? Its great!
:dribble:


----------



## Saw Dr. (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> And in the middle of winter at that. Me thinks there are a few too many brewskies under a few belts, lol.



Maybe _not enough_ brewskies is the problem!


----------



## fearofpavement (Jan 26, 2013)

Ok, everyone take a nap and come back later. Ya bunch of whiny babies! Sounds like 5th grade all over again. Does so! Does so!


----------



## Gologit (Jan 26, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> Quick! Everyone hide the beer!!! 5-0 is here.
> 
> J/K man. Looks like a long night for you.



Maybe, maybe not.

Let's see...Brad referred to Sachsmo as "cowardly and childish"... Sachsmo called Brad a "pathetic profiteer"....it might be a real short night for anybody who continues insulting anybody else.

Might be a good idea to confine the arguments to what the OP had in mind and lay off the personal crap.


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 26, 2013)

Well I for one think it's a great thing Watsonr is doing here, 90 day warranty against defects and failure. Seals, bearing, gaskets. What more can you ask for? If you get a kit and it doesn't look good, you send it back. What's all the #####ing about?


----------



## Jimmy in NC (Jan 26, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> You can say that again. Like dumping blood in the shark tank.
> 
> I was thinking of starting a thread called the autotune/m-tronic what saw should I buy to hone or not what oil ratio is best i love flippy caps what bar length should I use I soak my chains and like PPE aftermarket cylinder green chain sux mahle Stihl cylinder thread. Do you think anyone would respond?



That right there would stop all other traffic in the Chainsaw area for at least 3 days...


----------



## Jimmy in NC (Jan 26, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> Maybe _not enough_ brewskies is the problem!



It's hard to drink them two at a time and browse AS.....


----------



## Saw Dr. (Jan 26, 2013)

Jimmy in NC said:


> That right there would stop all other traffic in the Chainsaw area for at least 3 days...



Pretty sure they'd have me strapped to the roof of the short bus headed for 'camp if I started that thread.


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Diet Coke,
> 
> Straight up.



THAT :censored: will kill ya! If you're gonna drink soda, drink the real stuff and deal with the sugar.


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

Jimmy in NC said:


> It's hard to drink them two at a time and browse AS.....



Take a lesson from da 'Mule, sideways 40s. :msp_w00t:


----------



## Saw Dr. (Jan 26, 2013)

We are on Cokes now. That is a food product. Getting close to Pie already.......


----------



## WidowMaker1 (Jan 26, 2013)

Jimmy in NC said:


> It's hard to drink them two at a time and browse AS.....


 All good with one of these little rippers


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> We are on Cokes now. That is a food product. Getting close to Pie already.......



Apple pie?


----------



## Jimmy in NC (Jan 26, 2013)

Well back on topic, FWIW I installed a Hyway top end on a TS420. That particular saw is used daily and I've decided there is nothing used harder than a 14" cut off saw cutting concrete. The kit went together smoothly and it's held up for 2 months of probably 5 hours of run time a week. The fact that a warranty is offered here I wouldn't even think twice. I don't know about the ability for these kits to be ported as I've never ported anything myself. I can say if you need get a saw going on the cheap.. it is an option. 

To the OP - do you anticipate getting any kits for the Stihl TS400 or the TS410/420 saws? I buy probably 4-5 a year.


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 26, 2013)

I got the last leinenkugel here beside the computer down and I'm out of beer:msp_angry:


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 26, 2013)

WidowMaker1 said:


> All good with one of these little rippers



Do people really drink that VB (Very Bad) Aussie beer?


----------



## paccity (Jan 26, 2013)

think it's funny as heck. most can see down the middle .


----------



## H 2 H (Jan 26, 2013)

I'm shocked that the _*NBA*_ hasn't chimed in yet :taped:


----------



## WidowMaker1 (Jan 26, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Do people really drink that VB (Very Bad) Aussie beer?


 by the truck load! thats after all the Bourbon's run out


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> Let's see...Brad referred to Sachsmo as "cowardly and childish"... Sachsmo called Brad a "pathetic profiteer"....it might be a real short night for anybody who continues insulting anybody else.
> 
> Might be a good idea to confine the arguments to what the OP had in mind and lay off the personal crap.



AFTER DC and Sachsmo took this thread sideways. Perhaps you didn't see the beginning of the thread. I just want to make sure that I give credit where credit is due I was provoked your honor, honest, lol.




Dennis Cahoon said:


> Watsonr......You're doing the right thing......just don't sell anything to Brad or ModMark and you should be OK!





Dennis Cahoon said:


> You've been complaining about those 2 cylinders for I don't know how long. Like I said, Wastonr doesn't sell to you or Brad, and he'll be a much happier man.





sachsmo said:


> Panties still in a bind eh?
> 
> 
> I don't make money on chainsaws because I do it for free.
> ...





sachsmo said:


> Was not stupid at all.
> 
> Remember Mark, there are no "stupid" questions.
> 
> ...





Dennis Cahoon said:


> Brad.....You head is getting harder!!!!......I don't want you to buy Randy's "questionable" parts.......and he'll be much happier if you buzz-off!





Dennis Cahoon said:


> You'd miss me Numbskull!........Hahahahahahahaha! For-sure!


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Do people really drink that VB (Very Bad) Aussie beer?



Yeah, its the stuff that gets filtered out of Coors Light/Bud Light/Miller Light cans.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Gologit (Jan 26, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> AFTER DC and Sachsmo took this thread sideways. Perhaps you didn't see the beginning of the thread. I just want to make sure that I give credit where credit is due I was provoked your honor, honest, lol.



Complaining about site moderation?


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Complaining about site moderation?



Nope, just thought perhaps you didn't read the first part of the thread and got the wrong impression. Your post makes it look like I started this. That's simply not true.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 26, 2013)

Brad, you've been bashing Watsonr's products for a long time now. I suggested he not deal with you and he'd be happier! I hope he takes my advice......now drop it!


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Brad, you've been bashing Watsonr's products for a long time now. I suggested he not deal with you and he'd be happier! I hope he takes my advice......now drop it!



Dennis, once again, you're doing nothing but stirring up crap. Standard operation procedure for you. I have not bashed anyone's product in the thread.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 26, 2013)

I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving.


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving.



ya wanna pass that bowl?:msp_wink:


----------



## Gologit (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, I tried.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 26, 2013)

Aftermarket cylinder fights again eh?:msp_rolleyes: You can really tell who don't like each other in these threads.


----------



## paccity (Jan 26, 2013)

28 and counting.opcorn:


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

paccity said:


> 28 and counting.opcorn:



You're into the 2nd case? I must be a lightweight.


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)

Well it is more fun than the "fight thread".

I would like to see old sluggo slither down a straight razor.


----------



## DSS (Jan 26, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> Aftermarket cylinder fights again eh?:msp_rolleyes: You can really tell who don't like each other in these threads.



:msp_wub::msp_wub:


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 26, 2013)

sure would be nice if a guy could just start a thread here, and a good thread at that, and not be trashed for it. the fella is offering a 90 day free warranty, how much better does it get? i would think after 90 days you should know if it will work or not? truth be told, most of the guys that are talking all the smack, probably would not run a saw enough to wear any top-end out, either OEM or aftermarket.


----------



## Eccentric (Jan 26, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> While your over there, think you could get somebody who makes a AM Husky 350 piston to make some with windows in them so we could use them in Partner 5000's?



...and closed port 46mm Husky 55 p/c kits, and Poulan 5200/5400/8500 P/C sets, and Homelite 750 and 2000/2100/3100G P/C sets, and Husky 1100/2100/298/2101 P/C sets, and...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2013)

Anyone wanna kick in the sack? 

Errr I mean talk about these kits? I've got one here already and more in route. They really are nice. I plan to offer them with mods and a 90 day warranty. I won't sell them stock though. That's Watsonr's thing.


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Anyone wanna kick in the sack?
> 
> Errr I mean talk about these kits? I've got one here already and more in route. They really are nice. I plan to offer them with mods and a 90 day warranty. I won't sell them stock though. That's Watsonr's thing.


 i will take a kick in sack, and then we can talk about the kits and mods done to them.:msp_w00t:


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> i will take a kick in sack, and then we can talk about the kits and mods done to them.:msp_w00t:



Cool!

Where in the woods are ya? I'd deliver ya know.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 26, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> the fella is offering a 90 day free warranty, how much better does it get?



Well see that all sounds fine and dandy as long as you say it fast and get lucky enough to never have to use a warranty. 

Most warranties on anything now days are not worth the paper there written on and to be honest, why dont you see if your even getting a warranty on paper on any after market kits. I have not seen any! 

That is the only reason that I even bothered posting in this thread, just to see what the details are of this so called warranty that Randy says he is offering. 

Now to his credit, he did answer my question and it was a satisfactory answer at that. Then the wheels fell off the bus....


----------



## excess650 (Jan 26, 2013)

the Magic Bus!:msp_w00t:


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 26, 2013)




----------



## WidowMaker1 (Jan 26, 2013)

[video=youtube;7nKBKPcycFE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nKBKPcycFE[/video]


----------



## Walt41 (Jan 26, 2013)

Noone should ever question the passion for saws in this forum.


----------



## Stihlofadeal64 (Jan 26, 2013)

<---raises his hand to ask a question.
"Where is the exit door on this short bus?" 


When all the "stuff" is over here I'd like a price list mr. watson. Thanks
Send it via PM. Have a great evening - its late here and morning comes
early. Good night!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2013)

Aftermarket jugs anyone?????

[video=youtube;klhkM9QDfkA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klhkM9QDfkA&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=3[/video]


----------



## andydodgegeek (Jan 26, 2013)

I just got done reading this fine thread...cant we just all get along. They are only chainsaws afterall..:msp_scared:


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 26, 2013)

andydodgegeek said:


> I just got done reading this fine thread...cant we just all get along. They are only chainsaws afterall..:msp_scared:



This wasn't a fine thread, it was metric; no we can't. Only chainsaws? You got to be be joking:redface:


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Aftermarket jugs anyone?????
> 
> [video=youtube;klhkM9QDfkA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klhkM9QDfkA&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=3[/video]


well that is not the aftermarket jugs that i enjoy the most. but THAT is a good runnin' piece there. maybe a builder or two here could take a few notes instead of kicking up dust every time there is talk of these aftermarket P/C.:msp_biggrin:


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> well that is not the aftermarket jugs that i enjoy the most. but THAT is a good runnin' piece there. maybe a builder or two here could take a few notes instead of kicking up dust every time there is talk of these aftermarket P/C.:msp_biggrin:



Another AM jug.......

[video=youtube;eXHTVS_wuSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHTVS_wuSo[/video]


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2013)

And another......

[video=youtube;ulNVq-5uQts]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ulNVq-5uQts[/video]


----------



## tbone75 (Jan 26, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Well it is more fun than the "fight thread".
> 
> I would like to see old sluggo slither down a straight razor.



Dang !! That there is down right MEEN ! :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Stihl won't work,I will just laugh at you ! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 26, 2013)

again, all fine running exmples, but my favorite A.M. jugs usually set side-by-side:wink2:


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Jan 26, 2013)

Anyone wanna buy a 1968 Olivetti Lettera 32 Typewriter.....??


$400 shipped.


----------



## sawfun9 (Jan 26, 2013)

Does that typwriter have original keys of aftermarket? OEM ribbon?


----------



## Genius. (Jan 26, 2013)

Am I late to the fight?

What did I miss???


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 26, 2013)

Genius. said:


> Am I late to the fight?
> 
> What did I miss???



"I have a potty mouth" :msp_tongue:


----------



## Genius. (Jan 26, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> "I have a potty mouth" :msp_tongue:



Wow!!!

I just realized there was a forum about chainsaws here

This is kinda cool


----------



## srcarr52 (Jan 27, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Anyone wanna kick in the sack?
> 
> Errr I mean talk about these kits? I've got one here already and more in route. They really are nice. I plan to offer them with mods and a 90 day warranty. I won't sell them stock though. That's Watsonr's thing.



First constructive bit in over 60 posts. Thank you!


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm thinking about getting this saw that I have sitting in a box fixxed up and ported.

Who should I send this box to?

I know it's missing a cylinder, should I go OEM or aftermarket?
I'm considering Golf


It's a 066


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 27, 2013)

Genius. said:


> I'm thinking about getting this saw that I have sitting in a box fixxed up and ported.
> 
> Who should I send this box to?
> 
> ...



Send it to Dennis and Brad. They can collaborate.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> Send it to Dennis and Brad. They can collaborate.



:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Arrowhead (Jan 27, 2013)

What a mess.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 27, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving.


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> Send it to Dennis and Brad. They can collaborate.



I've been considering sending it to Randy.

I hear he is really good at sorting through boxes of parts sent to him and making a runner


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

Genius. said:


> I'm thinking about getting this saw that I have sitting in a box fixxed up and ported.
> 
> Who should I send this box to?
> 
> ...


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

Jacob, are you good with 066's?

I've got about 5 boxes worth of saw parts that need to be sorted through

I'm sure a runner is in there somewhere:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


>



You are good at them too?


----------



## deye223 (Jan 27, 2013)

excess650 said:


> Yeah, its the stuff that gets filtered out of Coors Light/Bud Light/Miller Light cans.:hmm3grin2orange:



ya got that right and it took the alcohol with it aussie beer is 5% better than that watered down stuff you blokes drink
ya gotta drink 30 cans to get a buzz


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 27, 2013)

Genius. said:


> Jacob, are you good with 066's?
> 
> I've got about 5 boxes worth of saw parts that need to be sorted through
> 
> I'm sure a runner is in there somewhere:hmm3grin2orange:



I'm gonna be busy for the next 18 months picking all the dead skin off my feet.


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

deye223 said:


> ya got that right and it took the alcohol with it aussie beer is 5% better than that watered down stuff you blokes drink
> ya gotta drink 30 cans to get a buzz



A 5% gain really seams pretty insignificant.


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I'm gonna be busy for the next 18 months picking all the dead skin off my feet.



Isn't that what a wife is for?


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I'm gonna be busy for the next 18 months picking all the dead skin off my feet.



I just talked to Randy, he's pretty tied up with someone's 084 for 19 months.

Looks like you have a job

I'll get a crate and send all my parts your way


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

Should we send first responders to Virginia?


----------



## cowroy (Jan 27, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;Jj4nJ1YEAp4]http://youtu.be/Jj4nJ1YEAp4[/video]


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2013)

Genius. said:


> Should we send first responders to Virginia?



Yeah.....he must be dead.....


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 27, 2013)

Can anyone recomend a good oil mix ?


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> Can anyone recomend a good oil mix ?



Amsoil and E15 @ 250:1


----------



## Genius. (Jan 27, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> Can anyone recomend a good oil mix ?



I have a 500 gallon tank of used oil.

I think if you mix it 25:1 instead of 50:1 seeing its used oil, you should be GTG


----------



## deye223 (Jan 27, 2013)

mobil 2T 40:1


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm really rather speechless after taking the time to read through this thread. It's great that a site sponsor is willing to give a 90 day warranty on the AM products he's offering, but another poster displayed a completely unnecessary "injury" picture of a long time contributing member for reasons unknown. The picture I mention is one previously posted by the OP in a "safety" thread. The OP selflessly posted it, against his best interest, in the hopes others would learn from his mistake. To use it for ANY purpose, other than the OP's, is in *VERY* poor taste in my opinion. I'm all in favor of people being honest and helpful. That picture in this context should have not been used and I'm embarrassed for the poster who included it. Blsnelling certainly deserves far more respect than he was given, even if one disputes some of the articles/criticisms he's posted.

BTW, I'm for using whatever cylinders / parts will work reliably on a saw, but have only found OEM cylinders to perform best, even when fitted with Meteor pistons and Caber rings. Sorry, those always have worked best for me, even though I've only rebuilt a few dozen saws to form my opinion. The AM cylinders have all proven lower in performance in my experience (no porting).


----------



## hoeyrd2110 (Jan 27, 2013)

woah! what a whopper of a thread. 

so i must thank randy and randy for pushing these kits into mainstream levels of quality and customer care. i have no qualms if i need a kit from either...just wish i had a big saw i needed one for. hopefully the influx of these quality kits puts a sales hurting on some manufacturers to force thier hand to lower there prices or not sell any. again you guys are making a difference and keeping some saws alive instead of the scrap bin....no matter how you slice it a saw saved is a saw saved. OEM or A/M cyl kit a running saw is better than a scrap or parts saw


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> I'm really rather speechless after taking the time to read through this thread. It's great that a site sponsor is willing to give a 90 day warranty on the AM products he's offering, but another poster displayed a completely unnecessary "injury" picture of a long time contributing member for reasons unknown. The picture I mention is one previously posted by the OP in a "safety" thread. The OP selflessly posted it, against his best interest, in the hopes others would learn from his mistake. To use it for ANY purpose, other than the OP's, is in *VERY* poor taste in my opinion. I'm all in favor of people being honest and helpful. That picture in this context should have not been used and I'm embarrassed for the poster who included it. Blsnelling certainly deserves far more respect than he was given, even if one disputes some of the articles/criticisms he's posted.
> 
> BTW, I'm for using whatever cylinders / parts will work reliably on a saw, but have only found OEM cylinders to perform best, even when fitted with Meteor pistons and Caber rings. Sorry, those always have worked best for me, even though I've only rebuilt a few dozen saws to form my opinion. The AM cylinders have all proven lower in performance in my experience (no porting).



well said rep sent


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> I'm really rather speechless after taking the time to read through this thread. It's great that a site sponsor is willing to give a 90 day warranty on the AM products he's offering, but another poster displayed a completely unnecessary "injury" picture of a long time contributing member for reasons unknown. The picture I mention is one previously posted by the OP in a "safety" thread. The OP selflessly posted it, against his best interest, in the hopes others would learn from his mistake. To use it for ANY purpose, other than the OP's, is in *VERY* poor taste in my opinion. I'm all in favor of people being honest and helpful. That picture in this context should have not been used and I'm embarrassed for the poster who included it. Blsnelling certainly deserves far more respect than he was given, even if one disputes some of the articles/criticisms he's posted.
> 
> BTW, I'm for using whatever cylinders / parts will work reliably on a saw, but have only found OEM cylinders to perform best, even when fitted with Meteor pistons and Caber rings. Sorry, those always have worked best for me, even though I've only rebuilt a few dozen saws to form my opinion. The AM cylinders have all proven lower in performance in my experience (no porting).



Fact is, in most cases you can get a PORTED Meteor kit, for about the same money as a stock OEM. Now what were you saying about performance?


----------



## spacemule (Jan 27, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Next we have an un-know and I'm not going to reveal who, but they are as equally as good! They are slightly cheaper and do have split rings with them and clips that are wire formed. This kit is good! Piston and cylinder are finished very nice, good chamfering, port shape and finish is spot on, so is the piston! This kit will be offered with a replacement set of Caber rings and yes, I'll cover you on this one as well, 90 days against failure if you use the Caber rings... and I will not budge on the rings, you order this kit, the rings are sent automatically! This is a 660 kit.



Good to see a seller confident in his product! You wouldn't know off hand if the 395xp kit will work on a 394xp would you?


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm not sure where you're getting your "ported" AM cylinders, or their cost after modification, but I regularly get NEW OEM cylinders, pistons and rings on Ebay for $159, or less. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STIHL-Pisto...358?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cf256a86

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STIHL-Pisto...355?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cf26127b



Used OEM cylinders for $50, or less, plus Meteor pistons w/Caber rings rings for around $30. Your prices? I've used several different brands of cylinders and have found them to be less powerful than used OEM. Every single time they've felt much less powerful. No. I've not used any sort of dynometer. They've just felt less powerful and less responsive. No further description should be necessary to anyone who has run a single cylinder saw for any length of time.

Stock Meteor P/C kit from reputable dealer $159 + $250 for porting job from most site sponsors. You were saying? I miss something?

BTW, my point in posting on this thread was the injustice done to a long time member who has done more lately to promote this past time than most in the industry, at least that I'm aware of.


----------



## almondgt (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting your "ported" AM cylinders, or their cost after modification, but I regularly get NEW OEM cylinders, pistons and rings on Ebay for $150, or less. Used OEM cylinders for $50, or less, plus Meteor cylinders s/Caber rings rings for around $30. Your prices? I've used several different brands of cylinders and have found them to be less powerful than used OEM. Every single time they've felt much less powerful. No. I've not used any sort of dynometer. They've just felt less powerful and less responsive. No further description should be necessary to anyone who has run a single cylinder saw for any length of time.
> 
> Stock Meteor P/C kit from reputable dealer $159 + $250 for porting job from most site sponsors. You were saying???????
> 
> BTW, my point in posting on this thread was the injustice done to a long time member who has done more lately to promote this past time than most in the industry, at least that I'm aware of.



Did you mean Meteor pistons/Caber rings for...........
"Used OEM cylinders for $50, or less, plus Meteor cylinders s/Caber rings rings for around $30."


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 27, 2013)

Yes. I had to correct my post. Meteor pistons w/Caber rings for around $30. The used OEM cylinders can be had for around $50. I've not used OEM pistons yet, as I believe there can't possibly be $60 difference in performance for the added price. My guess, but a well thought out one, at least financially.


----------



## MCW (Jan 27, 2013)

The key with aftermarket P&C's is testing, testing and testing and checking, checking, and more checking.
Just because a kit pops out the box looking nice doesn't actually mean it's going to be reliable.
I know this has been run to death but here I go again...

For example I sent kits out to certain guys for free or at cost to determine how reliable they'll be on saws. Had some failures along the way so therefore sourced kits from different suppliers that have had no problems. 
Here is why kits also need testing...

I didn't know anybody with an MS460 for testing so sold some BB kits on eBay anyway and had them hook a ring and bust the top out of a piston. That was my fault for not testing them properly. The kits looked fine!

Like Mark said a replacement warranty is great however labour, time, and the good old headf**k factor isn't covered if something does go wrong. Not to mention that certain customers will crack the sads big time because they haven't had their saw returned in a timely fashion. Even worse if it dies on them in use or for a paid job. 

In an extreme case can you imagine the legal liability if a saw hooks a ring in the middle of a backcut on a large dangerous tree and something bad happens? Technically you could actually be held liable if it was shown that you hadn't taken all available measures to test and check that kit.

Offering a warranty is great and the fact that Randy is now checking kits prior to sale is also a big plus. The fact is that you can't let your guard down and "assume" that every kit will be finished well so they do need to be checked thoroughly before sale. 
I'm sure Mahle etc have bad kits coming off the production line too however their quality control is done in house whereas with AM the seller has to take responsibility for some of the quality control too.

Like one eyed Stihl and Husky owners the fact remains that no matter what information is presented certain people will plant their feet firmly on the OEM side of the argument regardless of what facts are available.


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting your "ported" AM cylinders, or their cost after modification, but I regularly get NEW OEM cylinders, pistons and rings on Ebay for $159, or less. Used OEM cylinders for $50, or less, plus Meteor pistons w/Caber rings rings for around $30. Your prices? I've used several different brands of cylinders and have found them to be less powerful than used OEM. Every single time they've felt much less powerful. No. I've not used any sort of dynometer. They've just felt less powerful and less responsive. No further description should be necessary to anyone who has run a single cylinder saw for any length of time.
> 
> Stock Meteor P/C kit from reputable dealer $159 + $250 for porting job from most site sponsors. You were saying? I miss something?
> 
> BTW, my point in posting on this thread was the injustice done to a long time member who has done more lately to promote this past time than most in the industry, at least that I'm aware of.



Just looked at Fleabay for a couple OEM cylinders for saws that I am working on right now. No dice. If you have time to wait around in hopes that one might come up Good For You. I don't. When I need something, I need it soon. So for me that means going to the dealer and it's going to cost well over $160. As far as buying used, not me! Learned that lesson. Unless it's from a reputable member here I wouldn't even consider it. I'll take my chances on the new Meteor kit with the 90 day warranty. Watsonr just posted his price here for Meteor at $149.99. I have bolted those Meteor kits on right out of the box and been very pleased with them. Did you not see Brad's 046 Mahle vs Meteor comparison???

BTW, You won't see me getting all emotional over the bickerings of member's no matter how long they've been here.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2013)

? for the op
lets say i buy a p&c from you and the piston fails/ breaks and a piece of the skirt falls into the bottom end and destroys the case and crank.
are you going to buy me a new oem case and crank?

i comend you for what your trying to do, but you need to be real clear about your warrenty

i've been a saw dealer for over 30 years and never use am parts.
my name is on every thing that goes out the door, and failure is not an option.

i have yet to see a am cylinder last more then 500 hours
i have seen many oem cylinders last 4000 hours

my best wishes to you in your indever
scott


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 27, 2013)

Saw parts aside, my point was it was entirely against normal decorum to post the "injured" pictures, period. You disagree? If so, fine. I'll consider you in the same light I consider the other, negatively. Happy? I'm not emotional either, I just have enough time to wait until they list them at those prices, which they regularly do for "pro" level saws, at least Stihls. See the links I posted? I can get then for 260, 360's 440 etc......


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I'm gonna be busy for the next 18 months picking all the dead skin off my feet.



Pics


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

This is my most favorite video that I am pleased to watch. 


[video=youtube;ulNVq-5uQts]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ulNVq-5uQts[/video]


Buy that sum beetch on ebay.....


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Just looked at Fleabay for a couple OEM cylinders for saws that I am working on right now. No dice. If you have time to wait around in hopes that one might come up Good For You. I don't. When I need something, I need it soon. So for me that means going to the dealer and it's going to cost well over $160. As far as buying used, not me! Learned that lesson. Unless it's from a reputable member here I wouldn't even consider it. I'll take my chances on the new Meteor kit with the 90 day warranty. Watsonr just posted his price here for Meteor at $149.99. I have bolted those Meteor kits on right out of the box and been very pleased with them. Did you not see Brad's 046 Mahle vs Meteor comparison???
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, You won't see me getting all emotional over the bickerings of member's no matter how long they've been here.




I see what you did there. Good for you


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting your "ported" AM cylinders, or their cost after modification, but I regularly get NEW OEM cylinders, pistons and rings on Ebay for $159, or less.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/STIHL-Pisto...358?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cf256a86
> 
> ...




Yes apparently you missed the whole thing. You're trying to say an OEM stock cylinder makes more power than a ported aftermarket one. I guess all the guys should have talked to you before they went to all that work on some of the buildoff saws. What happens when that top end you bought on the bay blows up in two months? Is the guy gonna send you a new one?

Do what you want but don't try to tell everyone else their way is wrong. 

And after all the crap that's been slung here in the last couple of months, the picture of Brads busted head offended you the most? Really?


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

DSS said:


> Yes apparently you missed the whole thing. You're trying to say an OEM stock cylinder makes more power than a ported aftermarket one. I guess all the guys should have talked to you before they went to all that work on some of the buildoff saws. What happens when that top end you bought on the bay blows up in two months? Is the guy gonna send you a new one?
> 
> Do what you want but don't try to tell everyone else their way is wrong.
> 
> And after all the crap that's been slung here in the last couple of months, the picture of Brads busted head offended you the most? Really?



Easy gal... Don't be breaking out of your stanchions. Are we going to have to put the kickers on you this morning?


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Easy gal... Don't be breaking out of your stanchions. Are we going to have to put the kickers on you this morning?



Haven't had muh coffee yet :msp_sad:


----------



## watsonr (Jan 27, 2013)

WOW,
I get on a plane for a few hours and the place goes to hell! Nice to see all the comments, some good, some not so good and then some... whatever. Lets get started!

Posted this because I'm tired of being jerked around. Started this business because customer service is lost, being friendly and saying thank you is seldom heard and repeat customers are darn hard to come by and I'm not one unless you earn it! My local shop is suffering, he's buying aftermarket kits from me. Most can't afford an OEM kit and labor to the tune of $400... that customer walks out and never comes back.... until now. He gave an alternative and gained a potential long term customer. 

I plan to earn your business if you'll allow me the chance. Thought long and hard about this and since I'm pretty good with numbers, its a numbers game for me. I figure that I can sell enough kits at a reasonable price, offer a gasket set and bearing with a warranty against failure. Not just against defects, not 30 days like other suppliers.. yes Brad I looked, seems its 30 days and nothing about failure. No gasket set or bearings included and I ship same day or next business day!

What really pisses a bunch of you off is that I regularly post here it seems. Most sponsors that sell parts don't, guess that makes me special! You see, I like a guy who is willing to open his mouth, say what he thinks and his word means what it's supposed to mean. I guess I could write it down, but still comes back to my word, at least is does for me anyway.

I have hedged my bet with the kits the best I can. Most of you are here for a reason, to fix a saw and get sound advise. Most can install a kit, pretty simple really, I provide a gasket set (helps remove air leaks) and they will use it because its there and a set of seals are in most of them, not all but most. The bearing is a give-me and will go into the saw as well and a good set of rings goes in also. Your going to take extra care because your repairing it, it failed the first time and you don't want to do it anytime soon.... maybe you struggled with the repair and lots of good guys gave advise. Most of these repaired saws will run for hundreds of hours without any issue, some will not... but the numbers indicate that failures will be few. 

If the OEM jugs and pistons never failed, guess nobody would be selling aftermarket kits... that would be a factual statement. Run an OEM kit past the warranty and see what your dealer says when you take it in because it failed earlier than 4000 hours. Most won't run a saw a 100 hours in a year and then there are wack'Os who bring multiple saw because we don't want to add fuel:msp_smile: 

If my word was no good, everybody would know in minutes. Look at some of the crap posted here already and it's not 24 hours old.

Now, If I was a smart man, I'd take my saw to a saw builder that uses these aftermarket kits and ask him to provide a kit and port it for me..... then sell that OEM stuff to someone that REALLY LIKES them for big bucks! It would reduce the port job and cylinder kit cost to pretty close to $100 maybe? These numbers for a port job are not exact, I've never bought one YET, but heard they are $250? Even if if that number is wrong, it still saves me a bunch of money by buying on for modification and selling the OEM one.

Then comes the good part.... The kit goes south. It gets replaced at no cost and whatever deal the builder decides for labor... or you put the kit on yourself in the first place. Does anybody know of anybody who bought an OEM kit and blew it up for whatever reason get a replacement after the original warrenty for any failure? Or WARRANTY for 90 days against failure.. even another site sponsor?

Most cover defects and within 30 days of delivery... that's it...... defects. Take that saw in to the dealer, most will do anything to prove it was your fault in order to charge you unless it was actually his fault on a repair. Stihl pays for the part and only the part, dealer kicks in the labor I'm pretty sure. I cannot warranty your entire saw (any sponsor here warranty a saw because it spit a clip and hurt the lower end?) as I really don't know just how well you put it together, I can assume you did everything correctly until I see the failed part and why I asked for it back. How many times have we seen someone come back with a broken crank because it spit the clip or something of that nature. It does happen, numbers show it rarely happens. If a builder does his job, failures are even lower and they always kick in the labor... because he built it and gave his word "it's right".... as we expect.



blsnelling said:


> Is that a ridge on the edge of the CC? It appears that part of the squish band was machined, but didn't go all the way into the CC.


Brad, I think it's the light, look at pictures #4 and #5 in the first page. If it was the ridge, the light wouldn't busted it up, it would have been visible.



Modifiedmark said:


> Randy, I wasnt trying to bust your balls, just putting it out there so you can be clear about it. Lets just say I'm still sore about dealing with those "other" folks.


Thanks, seems some are going out of there way, maybe a test of some sort? I spent 25 years on a submarine, NOTHING you say is going to shake me.



Tzed250 said:


> Nothing like an AM cylinder thread to get the #### slinging...


We can be sociable here, good conversation, nothing personal. Ops, I see some ugly pictures and that you guys got them under control.



blsnelling said:


> I asked a question, and Randy didn't have an answer yet.


Yes Sir, I will get you that answer when I get back to Virginia... do not let me forget!



Jimmy in NC said:


> To the OP - do you anticipate getting any kits for the Stihl TS400 or the TS410/420 saws? I buy probably 4-5 a year.


Yes, TS-400 for sure, other I need to see if they're available.



CATDIESEL said:


> sure would be nice if a guy could just start a thread here, and a good thread at that, and not be trashed for it. the fella is offering a 90 day free warranty, how much better does it get? i would think after 90 days you should know if it will work or not? truth be told, most of the guys that are talking all the smack, probably would not run a saw enough to wear any top-end out, either OEM or aftermarket.


I agree and reasons why I offer a warranty!



hoeyrd2110 said:


> woah! what a whopper of a thread.
> 
> so i must thank randy and randy for pushing these kits into mainstream levels of quality and customer care. i have no qualms if i need a kit from either...just wish i had a big saw i needed one for. hopefully the influx of these quality kits puts a sales hurting on some manufacturers to force thier hand to lower there prices or not sell any. again you guys are making a difference and keeping some saws alive instead of the scrap bin....no matter how you slice it a saw saved is a saw saved. OEM or A/M cyl kit a running saw is better than a scrap or parts saw


And the real reason has arrived. We will eventually replace OEM with some form. Mahle may have been the worst cylinder ever, that is until someone spoke up!



MCW said:


> people will plant their feet firmly on the OEM side of the argument regardless of what facts are available.


I hope they buy my OEM stuff on eBay for good prices and I'm not ending my auction early so I get every last penny from it! 



DSS said:


> Do what you want but don't try to tell everyone else their way is wrong.


Thank you..... a different approach then most are taking.... exactly why I'm doing it! It's 5:35 east coast time, I'm on the west coast and it's been a very long day. Those of you that sent me PM's, I'll get to them a little later today, I'm tired now.

It's numbers! Some sell the kits cheaper I'll admit, they don't include the gasket set, bearing, Caber rings on kits that have split ductile crap, answer posts at 5:35am after a long day and longer plane ride, fill your order at 10:00pm because I'm here chatting it up and most don't ship within 1 day.... 

Money is TIGHT, I'm trying to save you some!


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 27, 2013)

Keep us posted on new stuff eh?

I checked your site and you seem to have the big two covered.


Next time you update, could you include more specs i.e. pin diameter etc.?


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 27, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah.....he must be dead.....



Good things come, to those who wait. :msp_wink:


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

I have no agenda.


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 27, 2013)

DSS said:


> I have no agenda.



Not now,

wait until this evening!


----------



## tbone75 (Jan 27, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Not now,
> 
> wait until this evening!



Got milk ?


----------



## J_Arena (Jan 27, 2013)

All of these "aftermarket threads" are just like soap operas!!! This will be the last one that I tune into!

[video=youtube;98T3PVaRrHU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98T3PVaRrHU[/video]


----------



## DSS (Jan 27, 2013)

tbone75 said:


> Got milk ?




Stand still a minute John.


----------



## sachsmo (Jan 27, 2013)

J_Arena said:


> All of these "aftermarket threads" are just like soap operas!!! This will be the last one that I tune into!
> 
> [video=youtube;98T3PVaRrHU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98T3PVaRrHU[/video]


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Saw parts aside, my point was it was entirely against normal decorum to post the "injured" pictures, period. You disagree? If so, fine. I'll consider you in the same light I consider the other, negatively. Happy? I'm not emotional either, I just have enough time to wait until they list them at those prices, which they regularly do for "pro" level saws, at least Stihls. See the links I posted? I can get then for 260, 360's 440 etc......


i think everybody here well gets your point. you are in fact in love with Snelling, for whatever reason. and, you are not real sure what your talking about when it comes to what works and what doesn't when it comes to P/C combos. thank you, and have a nice day


----------



## spacemule (Jan 27, 2013)

tree monkey said:


> i've been a saw dealer for over 30 years and never use am parts.
> 
> 
> i have yet to see a am cylinder last more then 500 hours



Well, since you "never" use them, it stands to reason you'll never see one last 500 hours.


----------



## (scarescore) (Jan 27, 2013)

I have a hyway 50mm piston and cylinder on a 365 husky 
I'm no expert just bolted it straight on and hope for the best all that was before I joined here
I didn't buy it from Watsonr but wish him the best with his business if more suppliers were like him there wouldn't be as many angry customers around
my hyway cylinder is Nikasil coated with a Teflon cylinder so not sure if it's the same as Watsonr

now since joining here I've learned what squish is and its .034 and the compression is 145psi
I also used a hyway cylinder gasket and compression was tested with about four or five tanks of gas through the saw. my compression tester is a cheapand a very cheerful bit of kit so unsure how accurate it actually is


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2013)

spacemule said:


> Well, since you "never" use them, it stands to reason you'll never see one last 500 hours.



like i said 30 plus years in the biz, don't you think i have tryed this stuf on my own saws?
and i know a few guys that tryed them as well

cheap am parts are cheap for a reason
high performance am parts cost by far more then oem and for a reason


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 27, 2013)

tree monkey said:


> like i said 30 plus years in the biz, don't you think i have tryed this stuf on my own saws?
> and i know a few guys that tryed them as well
> 
> cheap am parts are cheap for a reason
> high performance am parts cost by far more then oem and for a reason



I'm curious how they fail after 500 hours. Do they snag a ring, lose a clip, or do they actually wear the plating off. One would think that if they would make it 500 hours they would go on for a while.


----------



## LowVolt (Jan 27, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> i think everybody here well gets your point. you are in fact in love with Snelling, for whatever reason. and, you are not real sure what your talking about when it comes to what works and what doesn't when it comes to P/C combos. thank you, and have a nice day



Do me a favor and don't speak for everybody, you are making everybody here look like an ass.


----------



## Walt41 (Jan 27, 2013)

Everybody needs to stop with this "I knew a guy...mothers uncles cousin" approach and give this guy a chance, I personally do almost all my business with people I know on their "word" unless they give me a reason not to...my point is we should not bash anything until there is an actual problem with something that he sold and did not make good on, until then keep the HaHa's and tree fell on my head pictures on hold.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2013)

I tend to agree with what Scott has said here, in the past the plating in AM cylinders has been thin and not of a high quality. He has more experience with saw engines than 90% of us here in this forum. I have sat and talked with Scott and have a huge amount of respect for him. We would all do well to listen to his input. 

What I hope we will see though is that the plating in the latest versions of these kits is much better than the past efforts. I've had a hell of a time cutting the plating in the Meteor kits......they do indeed seem very tough. Time will tell the tale.

What we need to do here is discuss these things in detail with egos and opinions in check. If you've not used these kits and just want to voice your thoughts........don't. We have nothing to gain from the opinions of those that have not used these kits. If you would like to try one send Randy W an email and I would bet he's going to be willing to give you the best deal possible on one. 

The end user is the one who stands to win if these kits are indeed an affordable and durable alternative to OEM. I will be using these kits on my own rebuilds and have a few in the hands of guys that will run the wheels off of them in a logging environment. Over a year ago I gave a 044/046 hybrid with a Meteor top end to a friend that logs and it's still out there killing trees. I've got a 372 kit in the hands of a member that's running it and is planning to report on it's durability. I also just rebuilt and heavily ported a 044/046 hybrid using a Meteor kit for no charge so we could get one in the hands of a member on the west coast. These guys are going to provide us with real feedback.


----------



## spacemule (Jan 27, 2013)

tree monkey said:


> like i said 30 plus years in the biz, don't you think i have tryed this stuf on my own saws?
> and i know a few guys that tryed them as well
> 
> cheap am parts are cheap for a reason
> high performance am parts cost by far more then oem and for a reason



First you said you never use them. Now you say you've tried them. Which is it? If you do not use am stuff or use very little of it, saying you've not seen one make it to 500 hours is meaningless. Furthermore, if you're a saw mechanic, where do you find time to put 500 hours on saws to try these kits out?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 27, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> Do me a favor and don't speak for everybody, you are making everybody here look like an ass.



After reading this whole mess, I'd say the typical loudmouths are doing a pretty good job of making themselves look like asses without needing much help from anyone else..., as usual.

But who can resist yet another rousing rendition of Kumbaya by AS's finest?

I couldn't.

Silly me.


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 27, 2013)

LowVolt said:


> Do me a favor and don't speak for everybody, you are making everybody here look like an ass.


So where does that leave you ???? not intending to make anyone here look like you, and you need to lighten up a little, have a coke and a smile:msp_biggrin:


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2013)

spacemule said:


> First you said you never use them. Now you say you've tried them. Which is it? If you do not use am stuff or use very little of it, saying you've not seen one make it to 500 hours is meaningless. Furthermore, if you're a saw mechanic, where do you find time to put 500 hours on saws to try these kits out?



Scott works as a logger and in the evening as a mechanic. He's also a dealer. No need to bust his chops over him adding his experience here Rex. He's the real deal and knows his stuff. 

This is the type of posts that turn these threads sideways. 


Dammit......I'm starting to sound like Snelling.


----------



## spacemule (Jan 27, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Scott works as a logger and in the evening as a mechanic. He's also a dealer. No need to bust his chops over him adding his experience here Rex. He's the real deal and knows his stuff.
> 
> This is the type of posts that turn these threads sideways.
> 
> ...



I'm just asking questions based on what he posted. I'm not busting anyone's chops. If he favors oem, that's fine, and is perfectly understandable. No need to make stuff up.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 27, 2013)

spacemule said:


> I'm just asking questions based on what he posted. I'm not busting anyone's chops. If he favors oem, that's fine, and is perfectly understandable. No need to make stuff up.



Sssshhhh....the grownups are talking.


----------



## paccity (Jan 27, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Sssshhhh....the grownups are talking.



that cracks me up everytime i read it. you are a patient man.


----------



## spacemule (Jan 27, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Sssshhhh....the grownups are talking.



Yeah, looks like you lot had a real party last night.


----------



## paccity (Jan 27, 2013)

probably a headache from following this thread.:msp_biggrin:


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 27, 2013)

I figured it would be more than this by today. I'm a little disappointed there isn't 10 pages for me here yet.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 27, 2013)

spacemule said:


> Yeah, looks like you lot had a real party last night.



Yup...same arguments, different day.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 27, 2013)

Here is a report by an AS member that bought a lesser kit because it was the only one available for his saw. I would consider this a "B or C" quality kit. This was the only one out there and the supplier may have been told it was the "A" quality because of that reason alone! He spent a few hours fixing it, granted he was a little more involved in taking the correct steps than some may have, but his install was executed perfect. Pressure test, sealed up good, took some measurements and installed with questions. He was teaching both of us what a good quality kit should be! 

There was no option to send another kit. Would have liked to have seen the look on his face after it started and then after several tanks of fuel... fine professional job of installing this kit! AND about what I'd expect from a great deal us guys who have this same addiction. I fed this back to the maker of said kit, he told me there all the same quality. I made him pull a bunch of cylinders off the shelf and check them, same story... they look the same and then he told me ... Nobody ever came back with a report like this, I'm not sure what to do. I told him to call the manufacturer and tell him to start checking his quality, tighten up the tolerances and verify that the kits are being assembled correctly..... and then that I'm going to drop his line if no improvement is made. I'm not the warehouse for these and they don't come to me first for inspection.. unfortunately.

MCW said test, test, measure, check and check again... couldn't agree more and on every kit... including OEM. One thing goes bad it's a complete wash. This supplier insists on buying grade "B" quality because there cheaper and he can afford to replace them cheaply. You install it and then complain, he says what went wrong, you tell him and he sends another..... and then tells you "I've sent two already, it must be you" and doesn't correspond anymore... just like the story Modified Mark has! One less guy buying doesn't hurt him, a bunch of guys not buying gets his attention maybe. He's selling turds and is buying them super cheap, selling at 500% mark up and never even flinches to replace several... your eventually going to get one that works or give up!

I'm not here to trash another seller, supplier or anything like that. I'm hereto tell you there's some shady stuff out there and people who are on the lookout for themselves only. Products become better when consumers demand it. Products become cheaper when competition for pricing occurs. I get xx% discount for volume buys, most require I buy $5000 in initial inventory of EACH size. I can not compete against big box stores, there per unit cost is lower than mine....

I can give you customer service, add the parts I think you need to do a quality re-build, fast shipping at reduced rates and my word that I'll replace it if/and when it fails.

Here's the report, enjoy... Oh. Rikk, You did a fine job, thank you for the feedback. It was received and hopefully understood. Not sure why its a little hard starting, maybe a carb kit, fuel line/filter, impulse line? Give me a jingle next time you need a part, I'll cut you a break for you effort!


1. Pulse line port. After the saw was assembled, I sealed it up to vacuum and pressure test it. It wouldn't even hold vacuum for more than a few seconds. I then pressurized the engine and I could hear it leaking where the fitting was pressed into the head. I tried seating it with a punch and it still leaked. Not a small leak either. So I took the saw apart and drove the fitting out, roughed it up a little on my lathe so it would hold sealant without spitting it out, coated it with sealer and pressed it back in. No leaks after letting it sit over night.

2. Muffler stud slots. They were wide enough for the stud to fit through, but the opening behind the slot, where the head fits, was way too small for the heads to fit into. I noticed this after the saw was together and couldn't take the cylinder off to work on the openings. I'd have just put it on my mill and opened them up a little. So, my only fix was to grind down the heads of the studs. I had to take the thickness down by about half and had to take about a 1/16" off 3 sides of the square head so it would fit without binding. I was afraid that if they didn't fit right, they would cause the muffler to not seal tight and could cause the saw to burn up.

3. Cylinder base. The sealing surface on the base of the cylinder was not flat. I set it up on a surface plate to measure it and it was anywhere from .005-.015 from flat depending on where you measured it. It wasn't crooked, but it was machined with wide, rough grooves in it. I realize that sealant will take care of a lot, but that was a bit much in my opinion. I was able to use a granite surface plate with different grits of sandpaper to get it flat to within .005 or so. I just felt that it was too risky without a gasket to take up the extra clearance.

On a good note, I ran the saw (at 40:1 with premium) through about 5-6 tanks of fuel the first day and after about 10 minutes of light cutting, the saw seemed to wake up a little. I think the rings were beginning to seat. When I got back home after the weekend, I checked the compression and ended up with 151 pounds. The only problem I had was that the saw became hard to start when it was hot after the first or second tank of fuel. I'm not sure if it was because the carb was adjusted without the rings seating or the plug was getting finicky from a higher mix ratio and being tuned a bit rich for break in.

Any thoughts on the starting issue?


----------



## RK-REX (Jan 27, 2013)

Glad to help out Randy. My background is in machining, so I'm a little more anal about things than some folks, but it never hurts to pay too much attention to detail I guess. 

Also, the squish was .039 once I got it assembled. 

-Rikk


----------



## watsonr (Jan 27, 2013)

RK-REX said:


> Glad to help out Randy. My background is in machining, so I'm a little more anal about things than some folks, but it never hurts to pay too much attention to detail I guess.
> 
> Also, the squish was .039 once I got it assembled.
> 
> -Rikk



I knew I'd forget something, Thanks! Not the best squish, can't complain about 151psi.


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 27, 2013)

dang id swear i heard someone say their hoo hoo hurts. never mind me ,i'm getting back to my porting.


----------



## A.E. Metal Werx (Jan 27, 2013)

I would like to jump in own this topic a little, I personally have been running a meteor kit in my 372 for the past two months "ish" I will be the first one to admit I am a very hard guy to please but also am by no means afraid to try new things. When I heard randy was backing these AM kits I knew they had to be the real deal. I picked one up, looked the cylinder over top to bottom and was was very impressed with the quality. Casing looked nice and solid with from what I can see and no porosity visible. Plating, looks like a carbide burr killer to me! That stuff looks solid. I've rebuilt and moded a fair share of mx bike engines and wish the plating in them would have been up to the same par as these. Anyway, with p/c kit bolted to the saw you could never tell with out really looking that it wasn't stock. By no means could a guy tell by running the saw. I cut many of cookies going back and forth from the 372 to a 2171. The 372 was was ported while the 2171 was not but for a stock saw a person would think its ported. The 372 was a little to hot for a long bar but was still fasted but add the large felling dogs and the porting it was a little work to keep it in its power band. Both saws start the same, sound the same. Like I said if you didn't really look you would never know it was an AM cylinder. I have no less then 5 tanks of fuel through the saw with the AM kit and I haven't concerns what so ever about running another 100+. No scoring, plating looks like new. Would more could a guy ask for?


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 27, 2013)

DSS said:


> Yes apparently you missed the whole thing. You're trying to say an OEM stock cylinder makes more power than a ported aftermarket one. I guess all the guys should have talked to you before they went to all that work on some of the buildoff saws. What happens when that top end you bought on the bay blows up in two months? Is the guy gonna send you a new one?
> 
> Do what you want but don't try to tell everyone else their way is wrong.
> 
> And after all the crap that's been slung here in the last couple of months, the picture of Brads busted head offended you the most? Really?



The short answer to your question is "YES". Now, I've never pretended to know everything, but I do know an OEM cylinder has works to my satisfaction every single time. Not so with the AM cylinders I've used. Working on a 039 project now and I know the AM cylinder I'll be using will be less power than the rebuilt OEM saws I have laying on the bench next to it. So, I do in fact know what combinations work for me on the saws I mentioned. I've done a few dozen. 

Didn't notice the thread was referring to "ported" AM cylinders. It was?? I did point out that I've not used any ported cylinders, as they seem to go for around $250, according to the prices regularly seem in many saw builder / posters signatures. And I will add, and many here have proven the point time and time again, that a good used OEM cylinder with Meteor piston set up runs just fine and is quite near stock OEM in quality and performance. I've built up many "waiting" for OEM cylinders to become available on Ebay and have put the saws together for under $100. That said, I really don't see your point in throwing money at a AM cylinder for port work and then hoping the plating doesn't come off in a couple hundred hours. It would cost more and would be a gamble. Opinions are nice, but facts are facts and money doesn't come for "free" in my household.


----------



## CATDIESEL (Jan 27, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Scott works as a logger and in the evening as a mechanic. He's also a dealer. No need to bust his chops over him adding his experience here Rex. He's the real deal and knows his stuff.
> 
> This is the type of posts that turn these threads sideways.
> 
> ...


if he has all that going on he is definately a busy man. i am wondering how he has time to port saws as well.


----------



## LowVolt (Jan 27, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Sssshhhh....the grownups are talking.



:liquor:


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 27, 2013)

I've had good luck with some of the aftermarket brands, including all of those that Randy is selling. People also slam Bailey's big bore kits but I've had good luck with those although they take a bit of work. I've run big bore kits on the 440, 660, and I'm running one right now on a 395XP that's one of the smoothest single-cylinder saws I've ever run.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 27, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> if he has all that going on he is definately a busy man. i am wondering how he has time to port saws as well.



Scott just doesn't take any days off. He's an animal when it comes to work. You should see the pics of the piles of firewood he cuts. He's definitely got a few thousand hours behind some saws.


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> The short answer to your question is "YES". Now, I've never pretended to know everything, but I do know an OEM cylinder has works to my satisfaction every single time. Not so with the AM cylinders I've used. Working on a 039 project now and I know the AM cylinder I'll be using will be less power than the rebuilt OEM saws I have laying on the bench next to it. So, I do in fact know what combinations work for me on the saws I mentioned. I've done a few dozen.
> 
> Didn't notice the thread was referring to "ported" AM cylinders. It was?? I did point out that I've not used any ported cylinders, as they seem to go for around $250, according to the prices regularly seem in many saw builder / posters signatures. And I will add, and many here have proven the point time and time again, that a good used OEM cylinder with Meteor piston set up runs just fine and is quite near stock OEM in quality and performance. I've built up many "waiting" for OEM cylinders to become available on Ebay and have put the saws together for under $100. That said, I really don't see your point in throwing money at a AM cylinder for port work and then hoping the plating doesn't come off in a couple hundred hours. It would cost more and would be a gamble. Opinions are nice, but facts are facts and money doesn't come for "free" in my household.



I have an OEM cylinder/piston kit for an 029 that will have to come out again because it ingests the sealant from the intake side. This has happened twice. The sealant has sat over night both times, second time over the weekend. Off the eBay, kit was never installed before. Have rebuilt 20 of this style, never had such a thing happen before.

OEM isn't saving me squat.


----------



## SawTroll (Jan 27, 2013)

Eccentric said:


> ...and closed port 46mm Husky 55 p/c kits, ....... ...



Why not call it what it is, a Partner P5500 kit? :msp_smile:


----------



## watsonr (Jan 27, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> The short answer to your question is "YES". Now, I've never pretended to know everything, but I do know an OEM cylinder has works to my satisfaction every single time. Not so with the AM cylinders I've used. Working on a 039 project now and I know the AM cylinder I'll be using will be less power than the rebuilt OEM saws I have laying on the bench next to it. So, I do in fact know what combinations work for me on the saws I mentioned. I've done a few dozen.
> 
> Didn't notice the thread was referring to "ported" AM cylinders. It was?? I did point out that I've not used any ported cylinders, as they seem to go for around $250, according to the prices regularly seem in many saw builder / posters signatures. And I will add, and many here have proven the point time and time again, that a good used OEM cylinder with Meteor piston set up runs just fine and is quite near stock OEM in quality and performance. I've built up many "waiting" for OEM cylinders to become available on Ebay and have put the saws together for under $100. That said, I really don't see your point in throwing money at a AM cylinder for port work and then hoping the plating doesn't come off in a couple hundred hours. It would cost more and would be a gamble. Opinions are nice, but facts are facts and money doesn't come for "free" in my household.



Used OEM is not in this discussion, I don't sell used OEM cylinders. Were talking about the cost of OEM compared to aftermarket. If I had a used OEM cylinder in my hands in good usable condition, I would just put a Meteor piston in it and run it..... But if faced with buying a new OEM kit or an aftermarket kit and potentially saving myself 1/2 off that cost AND get a warranty if it fails.... not having that warranty with the OEM... there is no choice in my mind... its going to the aftermarket kit.

Your right, facts are facts.... I've seen the plating come off OEM. I've got an MS880 with about 20 hours run time, waited for a year now and finally a used cylinder came up on eBay..... $258. I'm past the warranty time... Stihl says to bad, OEM are $400. This used one may not last either...... and we can talk about "what if" until were both dead. The real deal is that some can't wait for that used OEM kit to finally become available, I can't afford a new one because of price and that used one is just as much a crap shoot, we've all heard the stories of how they failed after a few hours, heard that they saved the day as well. An aftermarket kit would have returned my money on this saw a year ago and really the reason I got involved trying to find something to fix this saw. Some good "Aftermarket Junk" would have bought my family a couple dinners in cost savings. Like you, I work for every dollar and scratch to save a dime!

I'm not here to twist anybody's arm to buy one, make you think this is the only way..... just that they're a good alternative to OEM in both performance, cost and available for most applications...... its that simple.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 27, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I'm not here to twist anybody's arm to buy one, make you think this is the only way..... just that they're a good alternative to OEM in both performance, cost and available for most applications...... its that simple.



Well, Randy.... facts _are_ facts..., and I think you just confused _everybody_ with that one.:msp_thumbup:


----------



## watsonr (Jan 27, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Well, Randy.... facts _are_ facts..., and I think you just confused _everybody_ with that one.:msp_thumbup:



Not sure what you mean?

Edit;

Alright, I've re-read my post and maybe I did. I got involved with aftermarket to find an alternative to OEM parts at reduced prices and in the case of the MS880 there isn't one... There are alternatives to OEM for the majority of saws outs there and they have been underdogs for to long. My goal was to bring the aftermarket into the light so some of you could see what I've seen is possible. There is no reason why an aftermarket kit can't be all that at half the price!


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 27, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Not sure what you mean?



I believe he was funnin' you. 

It boils down to this. If you can afford OEM and want OEM, buy OEM. I you want 90% of OEM quality at 50% of OEM cost, here is an option. 

In ancient rome there was a poem 
About a dog who found two bones 
He picked at one 
He licked the other 
He went in circles 
He dropped dead


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 27, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Not sure what you mean?



You're confusing the issue by reducing it to its initial simplicity for everyone who wants to make it something else...
"as in confusin' em with the facts."

Some guys around here just seem to hate when that happens..., me included every now and again.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 27, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> I believe he was funnin' you.
> 
> It boils down to this. If you can afford OEM and want OEM, buy OEM. I you want 90% of OEM quality at 50% of OEM cost, here is an option.
> 
> ...



That doesn't even rhyme.


----------



## watsonr (Jan 27, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> I believe he was funnin' you.
> 
> It boils down to this. If you can afford OEM and want OEM, buy OEM. I you want 90% of OEM quality at 50% of OEM cost, here is an option.
> 
> ...



One was an OEM bone and he saw the price tag:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 27, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> I believe he was funnin' you.
> 
> It boils down to this. If you can afford OEM and want OEM, buy OEM. I you want 90% of OEM quality at 50% of OEM cost, here is an option.
> 
> ...



Freedom from choice, is what you want...


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 27, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Freedom from choice, is what you want...



Exactly...


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 27, 2013)

i hate when my roids act up,its a real pain in my azz


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 27, 2013)

look,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,over there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pretty colors.:bang:


----------



## mdavlee (Jan 27, 2013)

Shiny with chrome? :cool2: Oh wait that's duct tape or Kentucky chrome:yoyo:


----------



## super3 (Jan 27, 2013)

spacemule said:


> I'm just asking questions based on what he posted. I'm not busting anyone's chops. If he favors oem, that's fine, and is perfectly understandable. No need to make stuff up.






What "stuff" was made up?

Lots of us here don't need him to write up his life story to know what he is all about.


----------



## mt.stalker (Jan 27, 2013)

So , in my case , (52yrs. old) if I use only one saw to cut with for my needs , and the kit lasts 500hrs. , It'll be worn out when I'm 76 yrs. old . Boy , I probably wouldn't be able to sleep @ night worrying about it .


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 27, 2013)

With all due respect to the intent of the thread, I haven't seen the flipside "truth" of the _bad_ products out there that are still giving the AM alternative a worse rep than it probably deserves these days.

Here's a 361 cylinder from a kit I bought from a non-sponsor a couple weeks ago -- the only one I could find after a day or so of searching around. All I really needed was a jug for the project, but a used OEM jug was more expensive even on the bay than a whole AM BB kit.

Nothing in the saw itself for me dollar-wise. A freebie project saw with (ahem....) the OEM Mahle cylinder totally cracked around its base, so...shopping I went for an economical fix.

Ended up with this after finding out there was no Meteor kit yet available and this was pretty much all there was....regardless of retailer. Same kit anywhere you went if they happened to have em on the shelf. I was told by a very reputable member here that the timing numbers in these kits were surprisingly good as was the plating in his experience with them. Good enuff for me.

Needless to say, I expected a much cleaner product and was disappointed in the quality of what I received. That stated, the original reference to this particular kit also suggested I check with the OP of this thread to see if maybe he had a nicer one on the shelf as a replacement if the original vendor would simply make good on a return. Turns out he didn't, but he spoke highly of the vendor in question and indicated I'd have no problem with an exchange or a refund as had been his experience in the past with the seller. He was right. No problem at all, though I think I'll keep the kit for the money and try my hand at cleaning it up myself if I don't send it off for a quick spit and polish by someone who's done a few of these already.

Everyone I corresponded with or talked to about these particular kits said basically the same thing; Decent numbers, nice plating, total crapshoot on the casting details from one kit to the next regardless of where you buy them -- unless, of course, they've been unpackaged from the supplier by a reseller, inspected for obvious imperfections, ported/cleaned up, or reduced in price if obvious flaws are present (can you say Bailey's 'unassembled' 039 short block kits?), whatever the case may be, and then marketed accordingly for what they are as the end result of the extra effort to provide a better aftermarket experience than just having their customers popping the shrinkwrap on a box from China and discovering this....and I applaud them for it.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 27, 2013)

Not sure what happened with the dupe pics in the previous post, but the thumbnails are the ones that should have been embedded.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 27, 2013)

With the new models replacing ones we have now,its only a matter of time before parts will be discontinued . This site seems to have an influence on the industry,if we can work with these aftermarket companies, maybe our feedback good or bad can help develop a better product,im going to be trying out a kit on one of my saws, if it holds up i will let the suplier know,if i fails early i will let them know etc,hopefully we can work with these kits to make them a better product,i know a used 460 jug is geting hard find to make a hybid, these if work out will be a good alternitive


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2013)

sorry spacey, let me try to clear things up for you.
i do not sell or install any am parts on my customers produts
clear enough?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 27, 2013)

tree monkey said:


> sorry spacey, let me try to clear things up for you.
> i do not sell or install any am parts on my customers produts
> clear enough?



You might need to draw him a picture Scott. Wanna use my crayons? :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 27, 2013)

woodyman said:


> I put a chinese p/c in my brothers 026 a couple months ago,NEVER AGAIN.I had to grind the bottom of the piston so it didn't hit the crank and I left out the base gasket and got a .041 squish.The skirt on the intake side was narrower that the exhaust side and the cylinder was chrome plated.I now have a paper weight and an OEM p/c on the way for him right now.You get what you pay for is a correct statement.



...and sometimes you get ripped off even if the quality IS there. Had to be said!


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 27, 2013)

Don't want to stir things up here, but Spacemule did have a question that didn't get answered. "Will a 395xp kit go on a 394xp?" Curious myself, I've never worked on either.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2013)

to the op

if your going to go through the time and efert to get these p&c kits up to snuf, why noy make them better then oem? how about quad port in 660, 460, 440, 360 stihl saws?
i'll try one if you can get them made

scott


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Don't want to stir things up here, but Spacemule did have a question that didn't get answered. "Will a 395xp kit go on a 394xp?" Curious myself, I've never worked on either.



i think so


----------



## watsonr (Jan 28, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Don't want to stir things up here, but Spacemule did have a question that didn't get answered. "Will a 395xp kit go on a 394xp?" Curious myself, I've never worked on either.



I don't know, not that familiar with those saws either. I'll try to get an answer.



tree monkey said:


> to the op
> 
> if your going to go through the time and efert to get these p&c kits up to snuf, why noy make them better then oem? how about quad port in 660, 460, 440, 360 stihl saws?
> i'll try one if you can get them made
> ...



I've got several companies working to improve there product. Does ANY stihl come with that type porting? Bad enough just getting them to fix the coating, ports and compression. Give me something to show if you can. If we could just design whatever we wanted, sure would be easier.


----------



## tree monkey (Jan 28, 2013)

just copy the 372xp transfer windows and angels, leave the lower transfers as the are
.025 squish should be a good safe production number


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 28, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Don't want to stir things up here, but Spacemule did have a question that didn't get answered. "Will a 395xp kit go on a 394xp?" Curious myself, I've never worked on either.



They will- but you need the 395 rubber intake boot + clamp, intake sleeve, dust shield, throttle cable, manifold, intake studs, and filter base.


----------



## mikeboyer (Jan 28, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Don't want to stir things up here, but Spacemule did have a question that didn't get answered. "Will a 395xp kit go on a 394xp?" Curious myself, I've never worked on either.



Yup, there's a thread somwhere too, and I think someone makes a parts kit--you need a different adapter deal for the carb and maybe the muffler or something else minor. I remember reading about and thinkinking it wasn't a big deal, or too pricey--I'm thinking ~50 bucks for the changeover parts besides the slug and jug of course.....


----------



## mikeboyer (Jan 28, 2013)

Oh yeah, the other thing that I was thinking was there's at least 2 really good outfits that do nikasil replating on 2T cylinders as small as 50cc at least, so I would never chuck a factory 088 or whatever just because you never know...BUT what I really want to know--And I know this is a dumb question, and I'm sure to take a beating for it, but does antone know of a quality ms200 replacement cylinder? I haven't found one in my search attempts--but I may by failing there too...Thanks, mike


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 28, 2013)

*sure...*



Mastermind said:


> Anyone wanna kick in the sack?
> 
> Would you like one in return "Kick me in da Jimmys" "again PLEASE" ROF


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 28, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Amsoil and E15 @ 250:1



I had the baddest saw in da land for 12 seconds, must be those damn AM parts


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 28, 2013)

*All BS aside*

I have found one company that sells MS361 AM BB top end kits. I have not ordered one yet hoping just such a thing as this would happen here.

When a supplier who does not work on saws for a living ask for the bad parts back you better PAY ATTENTION folks.

I'd like someone to PM me on where I can get cylinders replated in Nikasil.

Hats off to the OP for doing more about Customer Service and sticking by his stuff no matter what it may be.

I ordered 3 AM top end kits last week and we shall see what is what this week.
They are all from different suppliers and different manufactures, or so I'm told.

IMO quad transfers are why you do not see AM parts for MS361. There is no market for them. I do believe that they run much cool because my 361s can be run leaner than any saw I have ever run period. Light bulb here AM makers ding ding da....

Who agrees that quad transfers are the way to go for a 2smoker?

GOOD battle guys you prove your egos are bigger than your intelligent thinking? working brain, hum...

To the OP, please feel free to send me a parts and price list.
Thanks for your efforts to improve things.

PS Mike I may have that answer for you next week sometime about the 200s.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 28, 2013)

For the record Watsonr......I like the idea you are trying to bring a better product to the chainsaw crowd. I'm tired of the gas you are getting and expressed my opinion and got punished for "stirring the pot". No biggie!...lets move on.
I do have some experience building saws and using saws.....mostly hotsaw nowdays! Plus, I'm a sponsor on the site......Anyway, quality, warranty, and a good price is what I'm looking for. If there's a problem with the quality, then you can fall back on the warranty......Who could ask for something better than that?......and this is what you're trying to do. Great! You are giving us some good options! If I can help you in any way let me know. Thanks Dennis


----------



## mikeboyer (Jan 28, 2013)

I'd like someone to PM me on where I can get cylinders replated in Nikasil.

I'll try to pm you the web address--but millennium technologies is tops with snowmobile, quads, etc., Also Powerseal USA is highly regarded. Some others brag about how great they are (the "chrome" guys) and how many they've cranked out, but when you read the sled, bike, outboard forums--well you get a different story.



PS Mike I may have that answer for you next week sometime about the 200s.[/QUOTE]

Thanks


----------



## dancan (Jan 28, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> For the record Watsonr......I like the idea you are trying to bring a better product to the chainsaw crowd. I'm tired of the gas you are getting and expressed my opinion and got punished for "stirring the pot". No biggie!...lets move on.
> I do have some experience building saws and using saws.....mostly hotsaw nowdays! Plus, I'm a sponsor on the site......Anyway, quality, warranty, and a good price is what I'm looking for. If there's a problem with the quality, then you can fall back on the warranty......Who could ask for something better than that?......and this is what you're trying to do. Great! You are giving us some good options! If I can help you in any way let me know. Thanks Dennis



Who is this and what did you do with the real Dennis Cahoon ???











:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Eccentric (Jan 28, 2013)

*+1000000000000000 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!*



dancan said:


> Who is this and what did you do with the real Dennis Cahoon ???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree. This DC seems a bit different...opcorn:


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 28, 2013)

Must be an alien splinter cell in NorCal...


----------



## Eccentric (Jan 28, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Must be an alien splinter cell in NorCal...



I think you're onto something John. It's _Invasion of the Logger Snatchers_!!!:msp_scared:


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 28, 2013)

mikeboyer said:


> I'd like someone to PM me on where I can get cylinders replated in Nikasil.
> 
> I'll try to pm you the web address--but millennium technologies is tops with snowmobile, quads, etc., Also Powerseal USA is highly regarded. Some others brag about how great they are (the "chrome" guys) and how many they've cranked out, but when you read the sled, bike, outboard forums--well you get a different story.
> 
> ...



Thanks[/QUOTE]

Millineum will not do the average chainsaw cylinder. They don't do blind cylinders, which accounts for every chainsaw on the market today.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 28, 2013)

Eccentric said:


> I agree. This DC seems a bit different...opcorn:



He has his opinions and sticks to them, you have to respect a guy that doesn't flip flop all the time, yet can still see both sides of a discussion.


----------



## mikeboyer (Jan 28, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Thanks



Millineum will not do the average chainsaw cylinder. They don't do blind cylinders, which accounts for every chainsaw on the market today.[/QUOTE]

OK, sorry, should have pointed out that I was just passing on info from other forums--CR5's being my personal affliction. perhaps there's another that does. since you mention it, I imagine it has to do with the tooling/process, but if a barrel were rare and precious enough, I'd already be spending for the nikasil, it might be worth the machine work for a billet head so they could plasma coat it properly.

sorry for the speckled speculation, just trying to pass on some MC 2T info....my bad, mike


----------



## SawTroll (Jan 28, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> .... This site seems to have an influence on the industry,if we can work with these aftermarket companies, maybe our feedback good or bad can help develop a better product, .....



Maybe _some_, but I suspect their main market is users of cut-off saws, that just want them going again - cheaply? :msp_wink:

It shows regarding what is and what isn't availiable, but of course there are exceptions.


----------



## SawTroll (Jan 28, 2013)

Naked Arborist said:


> ...
> 
> IMO quad transfers are why you do not see AM parts for MS361. ..... .



I believe it has more to do with the relatively short time on the markets (low total number of saws) - as there are no shortage of quad port Husky kits. :msp_wink:


----------



## Saw Dr. (Jan 28, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> I have an OEM cylinder/piston kit for an 029 that will have to come out again because it ingests the sealant from the intake side. This has happened twice. The sealant has sat over night both times, second time over the weekend. Off the eBay, kit was never installed before. Have rebuilt 20 of this style, never had such a thing happen before.
> 
> OEM isn't saving me squat.



You need to inspect the mating flange of the cylinder and the pan with a straightedge. Sounds like one (or both) of them could be warped. Also, you probably already do this but make sure you clean the surfaces VERY well with carb cleaner before putting the sealant on. I use a layer on either half, and then put them together. If the Dirko does not seem to be sticking to the surfaces when I spread it, I wipe it off and try again. That is one of the pitfalls of rebuiding with the pan in the case. I have fallen into that trap a time or two. It is much easier to get the pan clean if it is off. Also, what kind of sealant are you using?


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 28, 2013)

Saw Dr. said:


> You need to inspect the mating flange of the cylinder and the pan with a straightedge. Sounds like one (or both) of them could be warped. Also, you probably already do this but make sure you clean the surfaces VERY well with carb cleaner before putting the sealant on. I use a layer on either half, and then put them together. If the Dirko does not seem to be sticking to the surfaces when I spread it, I wipe it off and try again. That is one of the pitfalls of rebuiding with the pan in the case. I have fallen into that trap a time or two. It is much easier to get the pan clean if it is off. Also, what kind of sealant are you using?



Dirko in red. I have always taken the clam out to clean it. May get a tube of the Permatex stuff. Thanks.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2013)

bucknfeller said:


> Don't want to stir things up here, but Spacemule did have a question that didn't get answered. "Will a 395xp kit go on a 394xp?" Curious myself, I've never worked on either.





Jacob J. said:


> They will- but you need the 395 rubber intake boot + clamp, intake sleeve, dust shield, throttle cable, manifold, intake studs, and filter base.







blsnelling said:


> Millineum will not do the average chainsaw cylinder. They don't do blind cylinders, which accounts for every chainsaw on the market today.



US Chrome does blind jugs 250.00.....



8433jeff said:


> Dirko in red. I have always taken the clam out to clean it. May get a tube of the Permatex stuff. Thanks.



Loctite 518 is all we use these days. Works great but as always cleanliness is a must. It will fill a .030 void and still harden.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 28, 2013)

Naked Arborist said:


> I have found one company that sells MS361 AM BB top end kits. I have not ordered one yet hoping just such a thing as this would happen here.
> 
> When a supplier who does not work on saws for a living ask for the bad parts back you better PAY ATTENTION folks.



The latter is an excellent point and something I hadn't considered while thinking about whether or not to keep the 361 kit I ended up with. As mentioned, the vendor had no problem with a return and a refund, but also indicated the kit I bought was their last one and he didn't know if they were even going to re-stock them in the future due to the inconsistent quality. Doesn't sound to me like they want to stir the pot with their supplier, so maybe I'm better off just keeping the kit and getting it re-worked anyway -- unless someone knows where I can get a cleaner one somewhere?


----------



## hdbill (Jan 28, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> The latter is an excellent point and something I hadn't considered while thinking about whether or not to keep the 361 kit I ended up with. As mentioned, the vendor had no problem with a return and a refund, but also indicated the kit I bought was their last one and he didn't know if they were even going to re-stock them in the future due to the inconsistent quality. Doesn't sound to me like they want to stir the pot with their supplier, so maybe I'm better off just keeping the kit and getting it re-worked anyway -- unless someone knows where I can get a cleaner one somewhere?



As of 2 minutes ago I counted 20 ms361 kits on auction and atleast 6 were BB


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 28, 2013)

hdbill said:


> As of 2 minutes ago I counted 20 ms361 kits on auction and atleast 6 were BB



'Preciate the tip, but I'm not a big eBay guy and do my best to support site sponsors whenever possible. And since the odds of me getting one in any better condition are iffy, I think I'll just keep the one I have and deal with it.

But thanks again.


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 28, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> I believe it has more to do with the relatively short time on the markets (low total number of saws) - as there are no shortage of quad port Husky kits. :msp_wink:



Is anyone offering a quad port kit to replace a dual port kit?

Can you give us a run time ie: how many years in production and total number of saws produced as a MS361 model? I'd like to know what is the total estimated number you come up with. If the saw was discontinued for other than EPA emissions reasons I'd like to know why? I think I may already have found the answer to that, just maybe.

The re-plating process is more than I figured but not out of the realm of useful rare parts being salvaged to work better than as built when new from the factory.

I got the links and Thanks Mike. Nice part was one of the best is close by me 

Looks like the AM industry is finally going to move forward on there jugs.


----------



## Grande Dog (Jan 28, 2013)

Howdy,
Looks like a busy weekend for AM Cylinder PR. The only thing I would like to see different is instead of having player A,B, and C. That way everybody can know who makes what for who. We're all big boys here, and it would level the playing field as to who the players actually are. I don't think the mods would say anything. Heck neither Mahle, nor any OEM's that runs there product are sponsors here, and they get plugged all the time. On the same note, if somebody is pushing total junk, they should be talked about without fear of moderator intervention.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## A.E. Metal Werx (Jan 28, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Looks like a busy weekend for AM Cylinder PR. The only thing I would like to see different is instead of having player A,B, and C. That way everybody can know who makes what for who. We're all big boys here, and it would level the playing field as to who the players actually are. I don't think the mods would say anything. Heck neither Mahle, nor any OEM's that runs there product are sponsors here, and they get plugged all the time. On the same note, if somebody is pushing total junk, they should be talked about without fear of moderator intervention.
> Regards
> Gregg


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 28, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> I have an OEM cylinder/piston kit for an 029 that will have to come out again because it ingests the sealant from the intake side. This has happened twice. The sealant has sat over night both times, second time over the weekend. Off the eBay, kit was never installed before. Have rebuilt 20 of this style, never had such a thing happen before.
> 
> OEM isn't saving me squat.



Aside from what the others have stated, are you using too much sealant? I've noticed little boogers in the mufflers on a few occasions, but nothing that suggested any type of "failure", just used too much sealant and it squished through and must have been picked up while saw was running. Clean the mating surfaces well and always check with a straight edge. I use a metal tri-square and haven't noticed any problems yet with any OEM cylinders. Not saying the factory doesn't make mistakes, just that I haven't run across any bad cylinders yet.

BTW, I'm not knocking folks who use AM cylinders, I have in a pinch and out of curiosity, I'm just sharing my experiences. Plenty of OEM cylinders and piston kits available on the Ebay for $159, or less, to even bother with a quality AM for the same price. That's a no brainer to me. If none available, and no good used OEM cylinders advertised, and I was pushed for time, I'd definitely go for the complete meteor set up.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 28, 2013)

Naked Arborist said:


> Is anyone offering a quad port kit to replace a dual port kit?



It would be awesome if an aftermarket supplier stepped up and made a quad-transfer cylinder for the 046/460.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 28, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> It would be awesome if an aftermarket supplier stepped up and made a quad-transfer cylinder for the 046/460.



i used to run an aftermarket cylinder on my 250r atv that was a very strong engine,nothing like the factory one ,if someone could figure figure the quad port configuration ,they would probobly do well selling them for saws


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 28, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> It would be awesome if an aftermarket supplier stepped up and made a quad-transfer cylinder for the 046/460.



.....Aftermarket awesome...ness!.......for at least some!:msp_unsure:.......Hahahahahahahaha!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 28, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> .....Aftermarket awesome...ness!.......for at least some!:msp_unsure:.......Hahahahahahahaha!



i bet your 250r saw has an aftermarket cylinder on it :msp_wink:


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 28, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> i bet your 250r saw has an aftermarket cylinder on it :msp_wink:



Big Bore Aftermaket......Awesome.....ness!......You Bet!

AM.................................OEM


----------



## Gologit (Jan 28, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Looks like a busy weekend for AM Cylinder PR. The only thing I would like to see different is instead of having player A,B, and C. That way everybody can know who makes what for who. We're all big boys here, and it would level the playing field as to who the players actually are. I don't think the mods would say anything. Heck neither Mahle, nor any OEM's that runs there product are sponsors here, and they get plugged all the time. On the same note, if somebody is pushing total junk, they should be talked about without fear of moderator intervention.
> Regards
> Gregg



Good idea. As long as there's no conflict of interest with sponsors I don't see any problem with this.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 28, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Big Bore Aftermaket......Awesome.....ness!......You Bet!
> 
> AM.................................OEM



that is the one :msp_biggrin: mine didnt have that spot for the powervalve though ,must be a newer casting


----------



## SawTroll (Jan 28, 2013)

Naked Arborist said:


> Is anyone offering a quad port kit to replace a dual port kit?
> 
> Can you give us a run time ie: how many years in production and total number of saws produced as a MS361 model? I'd like to know what is the total estimated number you come up with. If the saw was discontinued for other than EPA emissions reasons I'd like to know why? I think I may already have found the answer to that, just maybe.
> 
> ....



The MS361 was the last new model Stihl introduced before they entered the "strato" age, and also the only non-strato quad transfer Stihl. If memory serves, it was introduced some time in 2003 (it was not in the catalog for that year, but was in the 2004 one). The US version was slightly "detuned" from the outset for EPA reasons, compared to other versions. The parts that were different were the muffler and the cylinder.

It was replaced by the 362 a few years later, no doubt for EPA reasons only (I don't remember exactly when - maybe 2008 or 2009?).

When combining the relatively short production period with the fact that it was a 60cc pro saw (a size often regarded as "in-between"), it is reasonable to assume that the total number made was not really high.

Of course I can't estimate a total number.

Edit, I forgot to answer your initial question - I believe the answer is no, but I don't know for sure.


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 28, 2013)

Time for everyone to dust off their cameras. I'll be clearing the bench tonight and setting up for some pics this week. I will be posting box picks and suppliers names now. We will get to the bottom of this fiasco once and for all. I dought anybody will have someone new to add but see who sells what is going to be a learning curve for some of us.

I have yet to see anyone beat the pricing and parts supplied in the OP original post here. That is a huge plus if the quality is there.

I'm not much worried about bolt on super clean parts as most of my stuff will get lightly massaged at the least. What I don't want is scary stuff out of the box . For the rest of you "Plug and Play" guys it will be a fine week indeed.

Oh btw I have some clam shells AM and OEM ready to get the numbers taken down  Had to throw that in knowing the SawTroll and several others will be reading it :msp_w00t:


----------



## indiansprings (Jan 28, 2013)

WatonsonR, get the aftermarket mfgs to use EDM to final cut the exhaust, intake and transfers making them look pretty like Echo, some think that equates to better performance, than hand grinding the bevels like Mahle and most aftermarket jugs.


----------



## Grande Dog (Jan 28, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> It would be awesome if an aftermarket supplier stepped up and made a quad-transfer cylinder for the 046/460.



Howdy,
Stay tuned.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## Naked Arborist (Jan 28, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Stay tuned.
> Regards
> Gregg



Hum...wonder if Randy the OP is thinking like we are?

Thanks Troll
I wondered why there is no info out there on my 03' model.


----------



## hoeyrd2110 (Jan 28, 2013)

indiansprings said:


> WatonsonR, get the aftermarket mfgs to use EDM to final cut the exhaust, intake and transfers making them look pretty like Echo, some think that equates to better performance, than hand grinding the bevels like Mahle and most aftermarket jugs.



:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
i don't mind if there beveled with bamboo sticks in the woods.....as long as they are advertised that way and priced accordingly.
sub par manufacturing with full disclosure and low price is fine by me those parts have their place. but sub par manufacturing with a high sticker price and hoodwinking customers is where i get turned off.

last time i checked those pretty little OEM echo cylinders were not far above AM prices. which is why i haven't seen many echo kits vs other manufacturers high$$ OEM jugs. we are really not far off from having AM "ported" jugs to order with more timing and a flatter squish. i would try one in a heartbeat.

can't we have one thread without stepping on echo? really?


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 28, 2013)

Jawohl! Die MS460 Zylinder mit vier Überströmkanäle!


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 28, 2013)

Here's some OEM "awesome...ness" (MS-660)





Even Chi-com fasteners are junk...


----------



## 04ultra (Jan 28, 2013)

tzed250 said:


> jawohl! Die ms460 zylinder mit vier überströmkanäle!



hi john.....


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Good idea. As long as there's no conflict of interest with sponsors I don't see any problem with this.



Ok. So does A, B, or C make the 361 kit I bought from a non-sponsor that is also the same kit that is sold by Bailey's? And who unequivocally determines that? Then who owns up with the explanation for the inconsistencies in quality among the various vendors who actually happen to be AS sponsors, not to mention the vendors who sell the same kits who aren't AS sponsors whose same products are being represented by the same reviews?

Sounds like a real bag o' snakes to me. And way overdue! It's been way too civilized around here for the last twenty minutes.

opcorn:


----------



## Gologit (Jan 28, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> It's been way too civilized around here for the last twenty minutes.
> 
> opcorn:



As long as it stays civilized this thread can roll. If it turns into another dog fight and blame shifting mess....it's gone.


----------



## 04ultra (Jan 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> As long as it stays civilized this thread can roll. If it turns into another dog fight and blame shifting mess....it's gone.



Its all Bobs fault!!


----------



## SawTroll (Jan 28, 2013)

hoeyrd2110 said:


> .....
> 
> can't we have one thread without stepping on echo? really?



It is rather unavoidable, considering the porting and power output of their saws. :msp_wink:


----------



## hoeyrd2110 (Jan 28, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> It is rather unavoidable, considering the porting and power output of their saws. :msp_wink:



thanks ST for setting me straight....:msp_rolleyes:








:deadhorse:


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 28, 2013)

04ultra said:


> hi john.....



Hi Steve!


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> As long as it stays civilized this thread can roll. If it turns into another dog fight and blame shifting mess....it's gone.



......I might ad....No stirring!:msp_w00t:


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Jan 28, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Hi Steve!



Hi Steef...!!!

[video=youtube;yhk-J9YwLR8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhk-J9YwLR8[/video]


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> As long as it stays civilized this thread can roll. If it turns into another dog fight and blame shifting mess....it's gone.



I asked a couple of legitimate questions...in the most civilized and non-sarcastic manner I could muster under the circumstances.

Guess the bigger question seems to be, "where's the popcorn"?

Gofigger.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 28, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Here's some OEM "awesome...ness" (MS-660)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 28, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Jacob J. said:
> 
> 
> > Here's some OEM "awesome...ness" (MS-660)
> ...


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2013)

As I understand it the "A" "B" "C" is different grades from the same manufacturer. I think the really nice kits (like the ones I got today) are "A" grade. 

Randy W can explain further cause I'm real tired and feel a bit tarded tonight.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 28, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> As I understand it the "A" "B" "C" is different grades from the same manufacturer. I think the really nice kits (like the ones I got today) are "A" grade.



I took it as Gregg referring to the actual _players_ with his A, B, C reference...though there was really no conclusion to his original statement/sentence. Perhaps he would like to clarify?



> The only thing I would like to see different is instead of having player A,B, and C. That way everybody can know who makes what for who. We're all big boys here, and it would level the playing field as to who _*the players actually are*_.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 28, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Randy W can explain further cause I'm real tired and feel a bit tarded tonight.



It's just a retarded day.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> It's just a retarded day.



We dropped and blocked up 11 big trees today. I'm tired.....


----------



## PJF1313 (Jan 28, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> As I understand it the "A" "B" "C" is different grades from the same manufacturer. I think the really nice kits (like the ones I got today) are "A" grade.
> 
> Randy W can explain further cause I'm real tired and feel a bit tarded tonight.



Off to OtT : OTHER swap with ya!

Good
For
You
!!


----------



## Gologit (Jan 28, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> We dropped and blocked up 11 big trees today. I'm tired.....



11 trees? Gosh. 11 trees. What did you do _after_ breakfast?


----------



## SawTroll (Jan 28, 2013)

Of course A, B and C cylinders and pistons can have another meaning than quality levels as well, minor differenses in bore/size - but I doubt that is what the mention of it here is about.....


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> 11 trees? Gosh. 11 trees. What did you do _after_ breakfast?



Damn logging ain't my gig Bob. Course we had to split and haul and pile brush.......


----------



## Gologit (Jan 28, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Damn logging ain't my gig Bob. Course we had to split and haul and pile brush.......



Okay, I understand. Now, what did you do after _lunch?_


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 28, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Okay, I understand. Now, what did you do after _lunch?_



:hmm3grin2orange:

We done a little knitting and stuff.


----------



## Arrowhead (Jan 28, 2013)

cjcocn interviews lawnmowertech37 | Xtranormal


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 29, 2013)

Woodsman seduces cjcocn | Xtranormal


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> We dropped and blocked up 11 big trees today. I'm tired.....


Pics? 10 inch trees are not considered big.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> Pics? 10 inch trees are not considered big.:hmm3grin2orange:



They are if you're a midget. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Did you get any rotten pine? That would make for good videos. :msp_wink:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> They are if you're a midget. :msp_thumbup:



Did the aftermarket piston and cylinder actually make it through the 11 10" rotted pines without blowing up ?
That's the real question that needs answered.


----------



## almondgt (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> We dropped and blocked up 11 big trees today. I'm tired.....



"WE" is pretty open ended, you and the wife, you and the dog or you and your knitting club members ? .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................just joshin


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Did you get any rotten pine? That would make for good videos. :msp_wink:



Sorry, just maple, oak, and hickory. 

No videos either. I forgot the camera. 

I was gonna take the 088 and my 084 but the bar we modded didn't quite work out. I've got some more tweaking to do there....also Brian is sending some .404 chain that I'm wanting to try. 



Modifiedmark said:


> Did the aftermarket piston and cylinder actually make it through the 11 10" rotted pines without blowing up ?
> That's the real question that needs answered.



I put a couple more tanks through that saw. I also used that opportunity to put some fuel through a 394 I've been having trouble nailing down the issue on and to see how a 461 runs with over 200psi. 

I'm really liking the square ground chain these days too. 



almondgt said:


> "WE" is pretty open ended, you and the wife, you and the dog or you and your knitting club members ? .......................................................................................................................................................................................................................just joshin



I like your style. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 29, 2013)

Were the trees Original or aftermarket ?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Were the trees Original or aftermarket ?



I reckon God made em.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 29, 2013)

Isn't it great that in His master plan He provided us with something to cut with our chainsaws!!!


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> We dropped and blocked up 11 big trees today. I'm tired.....





thomas1 said:


> Did you get any rotten pine? That would make for good videos. :msp_wink:



Did you train some beavers to carry the brush and pile it around said logs, to make your video even more watchable, as in "Is the stupid ###### going to fall and cut himself open with the ported saw?"


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> Did you train some beavers to carry the brush and pile it around said logs, to make your video even more watchable, as in "Is the stupid ###### going to fall and cut himself open with the ported saw?"



If one can walk on water, balancing on a log should be no problem. :msp_wink:


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 29, 2013)

you should have brought Genius with you ,he could have showed you how to burn the wet limbs so you dont have to haul them out ...........and he could have helped with breakfast too ,it is the most important meal to burn for the day.........


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> you should have brought Genius with you ,he could have showed you how to burn the wet limbs so you dont have to haul them out ...........and he could have helped with breakfast too ,it is the most important meal to burn for the day.........



Brings new meaning to the phrase "burning calories".


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 29, 2013)

Let me hi-jack this dribble.........So when are the quad-loops coming?......Hahahahahaha!


----------



## russhd1997 (Jan 29, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Brings new meaning to the phrase "burning calories".



That it does!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Let me hi-jack this dribble.........So when are the quad-loops coming?......Hahahahahaha!



What are you laughing about? Gologit Bob has been making fun of me. :bang:


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> What are you laughing about? Gologit Bob has been making fun of me. :bang:



Complaining about moderation? :check:


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Complaining about moderation? :check:



Throwing me under the bus? :sword:


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Throwing me under the bus? :sword:



Really more of an underpowered, obsolete, leaky submarine, don't you think?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> Really more of an underpowered, obsolete, leaky *aftermarket* submarine, don't you think?



Fixed


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Throwing me under the bus? :sword:



Trying to get you a little more free time to work on the awesomest 084 ever. :msp_thumbsup:


----------



## Grande Dog (Jan 29, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Let me hi-jack this dribble.........So when are the quad-loops coming?......Hahahahahaha!



Howdy Dennis,
Did I forget to mention they were going to be stratos (just kiddn', aka?......Hahahahahaha!? 
I really don't even want to speculate. There's going to be a lot of hoops to jump through, and I can see form here that the townspeople haven't even started lighting the ones at the end yet. 

Regards
Gregg


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 29, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Complaining about moderation? :check:



It's true.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> It's true.



Crazy that he has the same tattoo as Randy.


----------



## DSS (Jan 29, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Crazy that he has the same tattoo as Randy.




But does he have the same bar code on his ass?


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

DSS said:


> But does he have the same bar code on his ass?



I can't tell from that picture.


----------



## DSS (Jan 29, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I can't tell from that picture.




That doesn't seem to handicap anyone else around here. Just speculate and then make a bunch of wild claims while uncontrollably weeping.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 29, 2013)

DSS said:


> That doesn't seem to handicap anyone else around here. Just speculate and then make a bunch of wild claims while uncontrollably weeping.



That sounds 40% more logical.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 29, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy Dennis,
> Did I forget to mention they were going to be stratos (just kiddn', aka?......Hahahahahaha!?
> I really don't even want to speculate. There's going to be a lot of hoops to jump through, and I can see form here that the townspeople haven't even started lighting the ones at the end yet.
> 
> ...



.....strato's.....Real funny Dog!.......Now I'm gonna throw in a request, how bout a cast removeable head?.....Hahahahahaha! Good Luck!


----------



## Grande Dog (Jan 29, 2013)

Howdy,
I had been thinking about a stacker cylinder on studs. I don't know how an average guy would take to it, because the bottom line is it has to turn a buck or they'll take my toys away. Manufacturers are wanting larger and larger MOQ's on new products. 
Regards
Gregg


----------



## husqvarnaguy (Jan 29, 2013)

DSS said:


> But does he have the same bar code on his ass?



More important question is how you knowed it was there.:msp_ohmy:


----------



## DSS (Jan 29, 2013)

husqvarnaguy said:


> More important question is how you knowed it was there.:msp_ohmy:




This aint my first day here.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 29, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> I had been thinking about a stacker cylinder on studs. I don't know how an average guy would take to it, because the bottom line is it has to turn a buck or they'll take my toys away. Manufacturers are wanting larger and larger MOQ's on new products.
> Regards
> Gregg



No elaboration on your rather obscure "A" "B" "C" references of last evening?

Is there actually a standard among you guys who sell this stuff? 

Or were you referring to an arbitrary rating qualifier relating to all of the vendors who sell the same AM p/c kits and claiming "A" players are more credible because theirs are better than the ones we should buy from "B" "C" players with limited credentials and market history...even though the kits are the same kits...if indeed they are based upon the "A" "B" "C" quality designation the kits are purported to have?

opcorn:


----------



## almondgt (Jan 29, 2013)

I bet the Op is feeling left out right about now......................:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Jan 29, 2013)

*fart*



Sup d00dz.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 29, 2013)

WoodChuck'r said:


> *fart*
> 
> 
> 
> Sup d00dz.



Sup Chucky?


----------



## watsonr (Jan 29, 2013)

Not left out, amazed at all the misconceptions! No wonder it's so confusing. There are A, B, C players and there are A, B, C cylinders and they all come from the same place. Its a matter of figuring out who has which at the best price and who stands behind which one for a warranty.

Suppliers are about quantity. I get a better price on kits when I sell more of them, as I sell more, the supplier offers me a better deal and that deal should be passed to you... sometimes it is and sometimes its not. The more volume I buy the better the deals.

Your concerned with price and quality. If I pay $50 a kit, charge, $65 a kit, refunds for bad kits are tough. If I pay $50 a kit and charge $135, I can replace one kit and not get hurt, eventually your going to get a good kit or stop bugging me. If I only replace one kit out of every 10.... I never blink.... and why do I need to ask then to fix anything? I'm making money, the one guy who complained got a good kit and everybody's happy except Brad. There really isn't an incentive to fix anything. My supplier is happy, he's selling volume. I'm happy, I'm selling volume, your happy because with just a little effort, your saw runs.

In the end, I gave great customer service, responded immediately to your request and shipped fast. The difference is the guy who refuses to sell crap after you've told me there junk and does nothing to help the problem. We hear this again and again and where has it gotten? Your still buying junk!

I've been a sponsor for a very short time and already a ton of PMs come to me asking for help in correcting a bunch of products that were either poorly manufactured or designed. All I did was call someone and told them....your stuff isn't cutting it, can you fix this problem? I told someone who was willing to listen, I gave them the solution to fix there quality problem and explained about the potential increase sales... BINGO, suggestion received!


----------



## MCW (Jan 30, 2013)

watsonr said:


> All I did was call someone and told them....your stuff isn't cutting it, can you fix this problem? I told someone who was willing to listen, I gave them the solution to fix there quality problem and explained about the potential increase sales... BINGO, suggestion received!



And that is all it takes. If you make enough noise about crap kits they certainly do listen. The biggest hurdle is when other resellers who don't give a toss about quality and/or backup proceed to tell the same supplier "I've never had a problem". Fact is that they've probably been telling any people who have had warranty issues that it's "their fault".
Anybody who has sold AM kits has had quality control problems at some stage without a doubt. The better resellers have worked to correct these quality concerns by either changing manufacturers or forcing them to fix the issue.
As I've mentioned before I do not deal directly with the kit manufacturers but with a 3rd party supplier. He does all the work for me if I have a complaint because I don't speak Chinese too well


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 30, 2013)

To be clear about AM cylinders, I have not had any catastrophic "failures", yet, but I have noticed a remarkably lower saw performance when using them over "good used OEM". Slower throttle response and "lugging" issues when cutting. Haven't had any of the other issues folks here have posted regarding cylinder "lining" flaking off, poor machining etc... I've only experienced lack luster power. Enough of a difference that it may as well have been a saw in a lower cc class. Anyone else notice the same results? I've used AM cylinders 6 times now, and am presently working on another (039) w/ AM cylinder and piston. Caber rings and Golf piston. 

I prefer "plug and play" stuff when rebuilding a saw. I'm not interested in anything fancy, like porting cylinders, cutting squish band etc... I like to keep it simple.


----------



## MCW (Jan 30, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> To be clear about AM cylinders, I have not had any catastrophic "failures", yet, but I have noticed a remarkably lower saw performance when using them over "good used OEM". Slower throttle response and "lugging" issues when cutting. Haven't had any of the other issues folks here have posted regarding cylinder "lining" flaking off, poor machining etc... I've only experienced lack luster power. Enough of a difference that it may as well have been a saw in a lower cc class. Anyone else notice the same results? I've used AM cylinders 6 times now, and am presently working on another (039) w/ AM cylinder and piston. Caber rings and Golf piston.
> 
> I prefer "plug and play" stuff when rebuilding a saw. I'm not interested in anything fancy, like porting cylinders, cutting squish band etc... I like to keep it simple.



I have to be honest I have never noticed any significant drop in power with the better AM kits but I have seen lower compression and the odd failure by using the supplied, cheap rings. As mentioned earlier I've seen a compression increase of 15psi on a 372XP BB kit by just adding Caber rings and I feel that this is where performance gains can be made out of the box. I'm a big believer that compression makes power. Other members here have also seen big jumps in compression by swapping to better rings.
Randy (watsonr) is definately covering a lot of bases by supplying Cabers with his kits. He will also be saving himself a lot of headaches down the track  When you think that Cabers are USD$12-15 a set then having them included saves time by not having to source them yourself - this is a great move on his part. The problem with aftermarket rings is that you never quite know whether they are going to be good or bad and it is near impossible to tell by simply looking at them. Best option is to replace them.
Also in some cases you will find that the timing numbers on some lines of AM kits are quite aggressive compared to stock resulting in MORE power than OEM. I have some 372XP BB kits here that a number of Australian members are running plus some in the US/Canada/Ireland as well. I have also passed details onto Randy (watsonr) as to where he can get these and I sent one to the other Randy (Mastermind) to have a look at. The numbers that Mastermind gave me from this kit meant nothing to me but he thought they were pretty good 
I'm a plug and play type guy as well and have no interest in porting things myself. I'll leave that to the guys who know what they're doing.

Just to clarify don't talk to me if you want kits and you are a US member. Talk to Randy or other sponsors. Any information I have gathered over the years in regard to quality and where I am sourcing my kits has been passed on to the two Randys.


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm a big fan of the Caber rings too. Always exchange the supplied "kit" rings with them. My only critique, and its for those on this forum interested in forming their own opinion, is that my experience has been the AM cylinder kits have always performed far below even "used" OEM in operator perceived power performance. At least that's been my honest observations. I have no "dog" in this race, so to speak. I don't sell AM ,or OEM parts. I'm simply a chainsaw enthusiast, nothing more.


----------



## MCW (Jan 30, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> I'm a big fan of the Caber rings too. Always exchange the supplied "kit" rings with them. My only critique, and its for those on this forum interested in forming their own opinion, is that my experience has been the AM cylinder kits have always performed far below even "used" OEM in operator perceived power performance. At least that's been my honest observations. I have no "dog" in this race, so to speak. I don't sell AM ,or OEM parts. I'm simply a chainsaw enthusiast, nothing more.



No doubt you'd notice a lack of performance with some of the crappier kits I've seen on the market. I've seen squish out to .040" without a base gasket and compression around 140psi. Without some serious machining these kits were useless but would certainly get somebody out of trouble in a pinch.
The overall quality of AM kits in the last two years has jumped dramatically but even then there are some shockers as witnessed in other threads with back to back failures and the like.


----------



## Toad22t (Jan 30, 2013)

MCW said:


> No doubt you'd notice a lack of performance with some of the crappier kits I've seen on the market. I've seen squish out to .040" without a base gasket and compression around 140psi. Without some serious machining these kits were useless but would certainly get somebody out of trouble in a pinch.
> The overall quality of AM kits in the last two years has jumped dramatically but even then there are some shockers as witnessed in other threads with back to back failures and the like.


It's not just from crappier kits though. I bought a big bore kit for my 044 from a site sponsor and got a .031 squish with out base gasket. The kit was supposed to be one of the top dogs before the meteor kits came out. I never checked compression due to me not totally trusting my compression gauge that I ordered at the same time from the same place. I am not bashing this kit or the sponsor! I have given out this kits name to others that are looking for reasonable solutions to fix there saws. I never brought this up to the seller, i just figured I received what I paid for. Other then the squish I haven't had a problem with the kit. I am just a firewood cutter,not a logger. If my lifestyle/job/family depended on it, it would have taken a whole different direction. I guess my point is, even if you buy a higher end kit things may not be satisfactory for some.


----------



## MCW (Jan 30, 2013)

Toad22t said:


> It's not just from crappier kits though. I bought a big bore kit for my 044 from a site sponsor and got a .031 squish with out base gasket. The kit was supposed to be one of the top dogs before the meteor kits came out. I never checked compression due to me not totally trusting my compression gauge that I ordered at the same time from the same place. I am not bashing this kit or the sponsor! I have given out this kits name to others that are looking for reasonable solutions to fix there saws. I never brought this up to the seller, i just figured I received what I paid for. Other then the squish I haven't had a problem with the kit. I am just a firewood cutter,not a logger. If my lifestyle/job/family depended on it, it would have taken a whole different direction. I guess my point is, even if you buy a higher end kit things may not be satisfactory for some.



That's true mate but people forget that factory saws are quite often coming with only 150psi compression new and also have high squish.
Trouble is that people hear about .030" squish and 150psi compression on an AM kit and the knives are out as they have never checked factory compression or factory squish.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Jan 30, 2013)

If you want a hot rod for yourself or are building for pros and enthusiast the concern about some minor differences in performance may matter. Otherwise, squish measurements and compression readings over 150 are just meaningless. The average saw owner just wants a saw to cut wood for an hour so he can spend the rest of the day splitting it. Or, just clean up nusisance stuff around the house or farm. 

I have had one saw that I rebuilt for a neighbor that I thought was a little weak. I saw him a few days ago and he says he has been using the saw all winter and it is running great, as far as he is concerned. But, he didn't measure the squish or compression so he could be disappointed.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 30, 2013)

WoodChuck'r said:


> *fart*
> 
> 
> 
> Sup d00dz.


Dude.. That was an awesome post,but i have ADD and couldn't finish reading it.:msp_tongue:


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 30, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> To be clear about AM cylinders, I have not had any catastrophic "failures", yet, but I have noticed a remarkably lower saw performance when using them over "good used OEM". Slower throttle response and "lugging" issues when cutting. Haven't had any of the other issues folks here have posted regarding cylinder "lining" flaking off, poor machining etc... I've only experienced lack luster power. Enough of a difference that it may as well have been a saw in a lower cc class. Anyone else notice the same results? I've used AM cylinders 6 times now, and am presently working on another (039) w/ AM cylinder and piston. Caber rings and Golf piston.
> 
> I prefer "plug and play" stuff when rebuilding a saw. I'm not interested in anything fancy, like porting cylinders, cutting squish band etc... I like to keep it simple.



I would expect less performance with a Golf. Why premium rings if you are going to skimp somewhere else? Is the lackluster power a result of the cylinder or the piston?


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

Toad22t said:


> It's not just from crappier kits though. I bought a big bore kit for my 044 from a site sponsor and got a .031 squish with out base gasket. The kit was supposed to be one of the top dogs before the meteor kits came out. I never checked compression due to me not totally trusting my compression gauge that I ordered at the same time from the same place. I am not bashing this kit or the sponsor! I have given out this kits name to others that are looking for reasonable solutions to fix there saws. I never brought this up to the seller, i just figured I received what I paid for. Other then the squish I haven't had a problem with the kit. I am just a firewood cutter,not a logger. If my lifestyle/job/family depended on it, it would have taken a whole different direction. I guess my point is, even if you buy a higher end kit things may not be satisfactory for some.



What are you using to measure your squish? You seemed to have been frugal on parts and a compression gauge can we assume that you are using chicom measuring tools, as well?


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> Dude.. That was an awesome post,but i have ADD and couldn't finish reading it.:msp_tongue:



tl;dr


----------



## DSS (Jan 30, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> Dude.. That was an awesome post,but i have ADD and couldn't finish reading it.:msp_tongue:




I think you meant to say your butt exploded halfway through the post.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

DSS said:


> I think you meant to say your butt exploded halfway through the post.



Pics?


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 30, 2013)

For the good of the community, NO.


----------



## almondgt (Jan 30, 2013)

WoodChuck'r said:


> *fart*
> 
> 
> 
> Sup d00dz.



Your trouser cough got the attention of 3 of your admirers...............:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 30, 2013)

How bout those AM jugs!:msp_thumbup:


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 30, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> How bout those AM jugs!:msp_thumbup:



"A" cup, "B" cup, or "C" cup?:msp_tongue:

But seriously, how is the A, B, or C designation established for a given AM top end product, and who does it? Is it a tolerance spec, or just an arbitrary and subjective observation? And when does it generally happen in the process? And what are the actual differences among the designations?


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 30, 2013)

Toad22t said:


> It's not just from crappier kits though. I bought a big bore kit for my 044 from a site sponsor and got a .031 squish with out base gasket. The kit was supposed to be one of the top dogs before the meteor kits came out. I never checked compression due to me not totally trusting my compression gauge that I ordered at the same time from the same place. I am not bashing this kit or the sponsor! I have given out this kits name to others that are looking for reasonable solutions to fix there saws. I never brought this up to the seller, i just figured I received what I paid for. Other then the squish I haven't had a problem with the kit. I am just a firewood cutter,not a logger. If my lifestyle/job/family depended on it, it would have taken a whole different direction. I guess my point is, even if you buy a higher end kit things may not be satisfactory for some.



.031 is about a normal squish measurement. 



MCW said:


> That's true mate but people forget that factory saws are quite often coming with only 150psi compression new and also have high squish.
> Trouble is that people hear about .030" squish and 150psi compression on an AM kit and the knives are out as they have never checked factory compression or factory squish.



:msp_thumbup:


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Sup Chucky?





Settin' back wit mah fellow gangstaz and chillen' like a villen. 



Chu' doin'....??


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Jan 30, 2013)

almondgt said:


> Your trouser cough got the attention of 3 of your admirers...............:hmm3grin2orange:





The 4 of us are like mice, we put our odor out so we can keep track of where we're at.


----------



## edisto (Jan 30, 2013)

Arrowhead said:


> cjcocn interviews lawnmowertech37 | Xtranormal



I spotted a little...


----------



## Grande Dog (Jan 30, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> No elaboration on your rather obscure "A" "B" "C" references of last evening?
> 
> Is there actually a standard among you guys who sell this stuff?
> 
> ...



Howdy,
Sorry, I thought the way my eyes were bleeding I had read all the posts. I was referring to who was actually manufacturing, wholesaling, and retailing them. I really only know part of the story, and don't currently have the time to write half a book. If anybody wants to ask specific, or direct questions, I'll answer the best I can with what I know just like always.
We have no issue with other folks in direct competition but, I can see where we're going to have our product cast marked in some way. I'm thinking the Taiwan flag on it will cut out the copies of the copies. I think capitalism will be at its peak in China when they become willing to copy the Taiwanese flag. 
The reason for the marking is because of the 1 year warranty we honor. Don't get me wrong here because I'm not saying this is being done on purpose, or that it involves members here but, occasionally we'll have people having multiple issues return the kits for inspection. We've actually been seeing components coming back to us that were sold by somebody else. Like I said, I can see this happening when people buy from different retailers and lose tract. It's tough for us to tell, and we've been selling them for a while. The only things we can tell is maybe the piston isn't coated, or if they tell us that they used the rings that came with the kit but, they're not ours.
It won't be too long before I have some new product that nobody else will have (at least for a little while). 
Regards
Gregg


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 30, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> I would expect less performance with a Golf. Why premium rings if you are going to skimp somewhere else? Is the lackluster power a result of the cylinder or the piston?



Usually stuck with lesser quality pistons because Meteor doesn't yet make one for a 039 (49mm) and I'm not going to pay $80+ for OEM piston. Caber rings are made with higher quality metal and I trust them not to break. To be honest, I've never had a ring failure myself, but have read about others having the cheap piston kits rings fail causing the cylinder and bottom end to get wasted. I'm just being cautious and going with what I know works. 

I'm not really sure why the performance is always lower with the kit cylinders. Ports? Squish? Compression? I don't know. I don't trust the readings on my compression testers either, and I don't waste time measuring other things I don't have the knowledge or skills to change. I prefer the plug and play route. OEM when practical, kits cylinder with Caber rings when no OEM new, or used available at a good price. For some of the talented guys on this site, a kit could probably be made to smoke a OEM , but it would for sure take some machine/port work.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Jan 30, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> The reason for the marking is because of the 1 year warranty
> It won't be too long before I have some new product that nobody else will have (at least for a little while).
> Regards
> Gregg



WOW! Dog......1 year warranty......can't beat that!.....Put me down for a dozen of those new 046/066/084 quad loopers, with/cast heads.:hmm3grin2orange:

likes Dog!


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Usually stuck with lesser quality pistons because Meteor doesn't yet make one for a 039 (49mm) and I'm not going to pay $80+ for OEM piston. Caber rings are made with higher quality metal and I trust them not to break. To be honest, I've never had a ring failure myself, but have read about others having the cheap piston kits rings fail causing the cylinder and bottom end to get wasted. I'm just being cautious and going with what I know works.
> 
> I'm not really sure why the performance is always lower with the kit cylinders. Ports? Squish? Compression? I don't know. I don't trust the readings on my torque wrenches either and I don't waste time measuring other things I don't have the knowledge or skills to change. I prefer the plug and play route. OEM when practical, kits cylinder with Caber rings when no OEM new, or used available at a good price. For some of the talented guys on this site, a kit could probably be made to smoke a OEM , but it would for sure take some machine/port work.



So, you don't trust your tools and can't be bothered to take any meaningful measurements, but you know aftermarket kits are bad because they seem down on power for some reason you cannot explain. Is that correct?


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 30, 2013)

Sort of, yes. I prefer to let the folks who design / engineer the kits be responsible for their design and finished product. They all advertise they should work straight out of the box and "bolt right up". I have two automotive compression testers and both give different readings. Those type of gauges just aren't accurate, unless one spends a fortune and buys a Snap On etc.... a bit much for my saw building hobby. 

I'm simply sharing my experiences for the benefit of other hobbyist builders in the hopes of saving them some problems and time. The folks who WANT all the measurements etc... you seem to want to know could probably care less about my experiences with the kits, they've likely already been there / done that. The technical stuff you mentioned does not interest me. I just want to bolt the parts on and have a strong, reliable saw when I'm done.


----------



## HuskStihl (Jan 30, 2013)

Gologit said:


> As long as it stays civilized this thread can roll. If it turns into another dog fight and blame shifting mess....it's gone.



I had just about figured out the teams when it got all civilized


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2013)

Gregg, can you comment on the different referred to quality levels? Can you give us some more details on your 1 year warranty?


----------



## nmurph (Jan 30, 2013)

...and a hint at what else might be coming.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Sort of, yes. I prefer to let the folks who design / engineer the kits be responsible for their design and finished product. They all advertise they should work straight out of the box and "bolt right up". I have two automotive compression testers and both give different readings. Those type of gauges just aren't accurate, unless one spends a fortune and buys a Snap On etc.... a bit much for my saw building hobby.
> 
> *I'm simply sharing my experiences for the benefit of other hobbyist builders in the hopes of saving them some problems and time.* The folks who WANT all the measurements etc... you seem to want to know could probably care less about my experiences with the kits, they've likely already been there / done that. The technical stuff you mentioned does not interest me. I just want to bolt the parts on and have a strong, reliable saw when I'm done.



I notice you don't include saving them money. By your way of thinking (that you don't care why it doesn't work, it just doesn't) why wouldn't you just advise them to buy a new saw when the old one quit working? No need to troubleshoot anything because a stock saw lasts forever, right?


----------



## roostersgt (Jan 30, 2013)

Polar Bear guy, I'm not following you at all. I've posted that I can build a rock solid saw using "good" used OEM cylinders along with a AM piston w/Caber rings for less than $100. Done it more than a dozen times. That is 33% cheaper ($50) than the questionable quality AM kits being offered for $150, and about the same price as many of the entirely questionable crap shoot kits found on Ebay. My experiences have proven to me that OEM cylinders are the way to go. Also, I stated that new Stihl OEM cylinder and piston kits (in the box) are easily found on Ebay for around $150, the same price as the AM kits. Why would one use AM if one could use OEM for the same price, or within $10-$20 difference?

I'm unsure if you're trying to say I don't know what I'm doing, or not, but I haven't burned up any of the 40+ saws I've rebuilt, so I guess I may know something about what causes them to melt down. Saws aint that difficult and this thread isn't about saw failure diagnostics, it's about AM cylinders and their quality, or lack thereof. Why are you bothering me? I'm trying very hard to play nicely. Now, move along and pick a fight with someone else.


----------



## bucknfeller (Jan 30, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I notice you don't include saving them money. By your way of thinking (that you don't care why it doesn't work, it just doesn't) why wouldn't you just advise them to buy a new saw when the old one quit working? No need to troubleshoot anything because a stock saw lasts forever, right?



opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:



roostersgt said:


> Polar Bear guy, I'm not following you at all. I've posted that I can build a rock solid saw using "good" used OEM cylinders along with a AM piston w/Caber rings for less than $100. Done it more than a dozen times. That is 33% cheaper ($50) than the questionable quality AM kits being offered for $150, and about the same price as many of the entirely questionable crap shoot kits found on Ebay. My experiences have proven to me that OEM cylinders are the way to go. Also, I stated that new Stihl OEM cylinder and piston kits (in the box) are easily found on Ebay for around $150, the same price as the AM kits. Why would one use AM if one could use OEM for the same price, or within $10-$20 difference?
> 
> I'm unsure if you're trying to say I don't know what I'm doing, or not, but I haven't burned up any of the 40+ saws I've rebuilt, so I guess I may know something about what causes them to melt down. Saws aint that difficult and this thread isn't about saw failure diagnostics, it's about AM cylinders and their quality, or lack thereof. Why are you bothering me? I'm trying very hard to play nicely. Now, move along and pick a fight with someone else.



opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## hoeyrd2110 (Jan 30, 2013)

i'm so happy this thread is finally an informative peice of info and not a sh*t slinging contest....oh wait deja vu:deadhorse:


----------



## indiansprings (Jan 30, 2013)

Hat's off to watsonr, an individual has taken the aftermarket kits further along than some major supplier's/ other sponsors have in four or five years of jacking around with version one thru God only what version their on now, even as a dealer it is great to see a guy willing to back them up for 90 days, as someone else mentioned that would cut more than 90 % of the wood the people who beech the loudest about aftermarket cut. As I mentioned before Randy just get your supplier to EDM cut the ports like Echo, not that it makes a darn in performance but would look pretty and get most to shut up about port shape. I see so many saws that come in and we can't put A/M on due to our dealer agreement and if I don't have a good used one around I'll pass them on to you and if they can't put it on I'll have them bring it in and charge a very nominal fee for showing them how to do it. I've got to get busy and become a sponsor so I can legally list all the used oem cylinders and pistons for those who won't use yours. Again applaud your honesty and willingness to back up what you sell, we do the same thing, dont' like it, ship it back in the same shape for 100% refund, that is how business should be done. I may have to set up a business under another LLC for those that can't afford a new oem jug and slug or saw, most who beech don't realize how tight funds are for the majority of the folks out there at least in this part of the country. They just want something that will get their firewood cut, keep up the good work, your come farther than anyone I've seen on here since I joined.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 30, 2013)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Sorry, I thought the way my eyes were bleeding I had read all the posts. I was referring to who was actually manufacturing, wholesaling, and retailing them. If anybody wants to ask specific, or direct questions, I'll answer the best I can with what I know just like always.
> Regards
> Gregg



Evidently needed a transfusion by post 367 or thereabouts and missed a couple of very direct questions on the subject?

No need for you to write a book and make my own eyes bleed and brain twist too much more trying to read or decipher it under such convoluted circumstances. I'm just interested in the facts and the "truth" by anyone who can legitimately offer both in this thread. 

Still sorta waiting for that premise to take shape over the typical pissing up a rope and inside comment bulls**t like everyone else already knows the answers and those of us who are asking legit questions are the odd folks out....and trying to keep in context the thread itself is actually a sales pitch buy a member/sponsor to begin with.

So.... (and obviously in the best interests of the community without any agenda)....

> How is the A, B, or C designation established for a given AM top end product, and who does it? Is it a 
> tolerance spec, or just an arbitrary and subjective observation? And when does it generally happen in the process?
> And what are the actual differences among the designations?

Answers by anyone who can offer em while I continue scratching my head wondering where the truth and the facts really are in this thread are welcomed.

So far it's all sales wank and opinion....and a coupla pics I offered as examples of what I'd consider a lousy product that was actually endorsed as having good timing numbers, great plating, and should clean up real well according to a couple of participants in this thread.

Ok. Fine. 

However...

I didn't buy the kit as a project in and of itself. I just wanted to bolt it onto a 361 without having to take the Dremel to it or buy a Fordam for the upper transfers to simply put the freekin' saw back together.

So is this an "A", "B", or "C" cylinder?

Simple, direct question.

opcorn:


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Polar Bear guy, I'm not following you at all.


I will try to address this in order so it is easier for you to follow.



roostersgt] I've posted that I can build a rock solid saw using "good" used OEM cylinders along with a AM piston w/Caber rings for less than $100. Done it more than a dozen times. That is 33% cheaper ($50) than the questionable quality AM kits being offered for $150 said:


> I'm not really sure why the performance is always lower with the kit cylinders. Ports? Squish? Compression? I don't know. I don't trust the readings on my compression testers either, and I don't waste time measuring other things I don't have the knowledge or skills to change.



You stated that you have used AM parts and they were lower performing, yet you also say that you cannot be bothered to figure out why. How are you determining that the original parts need replaced if your can't be bothered to find out why the parts aren't working?



roostersgt said:


> Saws aint that difficult and this thread isn't about saw failure diagnostics, it's about AM cylinders and their quality, or lack thereof. Why are you bothering me?



This thread is about a sponsor trying to sell parts and looking for constructive criticism, your input, so far, has been to tell people not to buy his parts without giving any reason other than you perceived them to perform at a lower level then the OEM. I have not seen where you gave any evidence to back this up, did I miss it somewhere?



roostersgt said:


> I'm trying very hard to play nicely. Now, move along and pick a fight with someone else.



Why is hard for you to be nice? Just because someone disagrees with you and asks you questions is no reason to be anything but nice. I'm sorry that you feel that anyone who doesn't blanketly accept what you say as the gospel is fighting with you. 

I would suggest that unless you have something to add other than "Don't buy aftermarket parts" you should probably focus on a different thread. The repetition of your mantra doesn't seem to be helping the discussion and you don't seem willing to add anything constructive.


----------



## Grande Dog (Jan 30, 2013)

Howdy,
If we bought different quality kits on purpose, we would certainly market them that way. Most of our kits are NWP branded and all come from the same manufacturer in Taiwan by the name of Easysaw. One thing you have to remember about this part of the world is that whole businesses start, and stop like traffic here. You would seriously need a scorecard to keep up with it. We do carry some others that I like the quality on but, are not made Easysaw. I buy these kits from brokers rather than manufacturers so I don't know the origin. The kits I'm talking about are prefixed with CKN. The ones that come to mind are the CKN 262"s which are really nice nikasil kits but, we just don't sell enough to build a thousand through Easysaw. We also carry the Meteor branded, Stens kits, and we'll be soon be adding the Raisman brand kits. We have already, and will in the future market these kits under their own brand name. The warranty on any brand other than the NWP will carry the Bailey's 30 day satisfaction guarantee, so even if you don't like the way it parts it's hair, we'll have your back for full credit, refund, or exchange.
We've always had a 1 year warranty on the NWP brand. NWP is a brand name owned by Easysaw. When we originally started doing the aftermarket cylinder kits, they were sold under the Woodsman PRO brand. we had so many issues with consistency, we had to can the brand. We told Easysaw that if the NWP brand was going to start off, and continue be successful, it will be on them to make a quality product. We at best tell them what to make but, they have to maintain the integrity of the product.
As far as the one year warranty on the NWP branded product goes, we will pretty much give a person a one-time pass on a (the customer is always right mentality) replacement. As a general rule we find that the most folks in our industry are pretty honest, and not looking for a freebie, or some kind of handout. We tell them to hang on to the failed unit, and send another one. This step can be pretty much done by anybody who picks up the phone during business hours. If you fail a second one, you'll end up talking to one of our tech's to try and find out what's going on. If the tech can't determine exactly what happened, we'll send a label to pick up our kits, and their original cylinder and piston if they have it. Once we get our hands on them we pretty much know what went on. Once we're satisfied that it isn't our kit, we'll offer credit, refund, or one last replacement with the understanding that if they don't fix what's failing the top ends. this kit will look like the other two, and the original in no time. It doesn't come to this too often but, some people just don't get it, and nothing we can do will fix that.
What I have on the plate for the future is some gender benders for the 044,046, and 066 in the form of quad port top ends for them. At this point I have no Idea when they'll happen. If you've followed any of our product developments on here before, you know it's painstakingly slow but, it eventually happens.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 30, 2013)

Missed this prior to editing my last post indicating a desire for more detail on all this stuff. Keep it coming from anywhere/anyone that offers credible clarification.:msp_thumbup:

That stated, there are still a few unanswered questions in my previous post.


----------



## tlandrum (Jan 30, 2013)

greg it sounds to me like your headed toward a performance aftermarket cylinder with the quad port idea. ill be onboard with that if it comes to lite.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 30, 2013)

is it getting warm in here or is it just me ?


----------



## H 2 H (Jan 30, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> is it getting warm in here or is it just me ?




It's the flu that's going around


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2013)

Gregg, thanks for the straight up answers, without all the sales hype. I've always appreciated your honesty and customer service.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 30, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I would suggest that unless you have something to add other than "Don't buy aftermarket parts" you should probably focus on a different thread. The repetition of your mantra doesn't seem to be helping the discussion and you don't seem willing to add anything constructive.



Likewise, mang.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jan 30, 2013)

Oh the winds of change.....interested to see which way the breeze blows a year from now. 



Still OEM for me..:alien2:


----------



## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2013)

I'd be all over some quality high-performance AM cylinders. I'm willing to pay for quality. A quad-port 460 would be right up my alley


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 30, 2013)

I can attest to the fact that Bailey's customer service is outstanding.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 30, 2013)

komatsuvarna said:


> Oh the winds of change.....



Geezus...., just another freekin' fart joke?:msp_wink:


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 30, 2013)

H 2 H said:


> It's the flu that's going around



More like diarrhea in this thread , bro.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 30, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> I can attest to the fact that Bailey's customer service is outstanding.



That is a fact.


----------



## Eric Modell (Jan 30, 2013)

So Brad are you saying the after market kits that you built, with long winded post for Gregg , a long time ago was just advertizing for Baileys?

I thought you backed them and led the public to believe they were a good value, you and Bailey's invested a lot of time and money devloping the kits that are available today!

When and why did you chagne your mind on value of the after market.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 30, 2013)

Eric Modell said:


> So Brad are you saying the after market kits that you built, with long winded post for Gregg , a long time ago was just advertizing for Baileys?
> 
> I thought you backed them and led the public to believe they were a good value, you and Bailey's invested a lot of time and money devloping the kits that available today!
> 
> When and why did you chagne your mind on value of after market.



I'm beginning to think ol' Brad just don't like the kits watsonr and I sell.


----------



## Eric Modell (Jan 30, 2013)

But is competiton not good.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'm beginning to think ol' Brad just don't like the kits watsonr and I sell.



Oh snap!!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 30, 2013)

Eric Modell said:


> But is competiton not good.



Damn straight it is. Makes everyone sharpen their pencils.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 30, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Oh snap!!!!



I'm probably just imagining it. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## DSS (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'm probably just imagining it. :msp_sneaky:




Yeah. Probably all of us are. I have a great imagination and stuff


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 30, 2013)

DSS said:


> Yeah. Probably all of us are. I have a great imagination and stuff



Here's how good mine is. 

In my mind I see you as a blinged up bovine being milked nearly to dead by a couple of igloo dwelling Greenlanders.

How'd I do? 

:cool2:


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here's how good mine is.
> 
> In my mind I see you as a blinged up bovine being milked nearly to dead by a couple of igloo dwelling Greenlanders. One of which wears a strapped on milking stool.
> 
> ...



Get out of my HEAD.

Bacon.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here's how good mine is.
> 
> In my mind I see you as a blinged up bovine being milked nearly to dead by a couple of igloo dwelling Greenlanders.
> 
> ...


I'd say pretty good.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## DSS (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Here's how good mine is.
> 
> In my mind I see you as a blinged up bovine being milked nearly to dead by a couple of igloo dwelling Greenlanders.
> 
> ...



Above average. :msp_mellow:


----------



## DSS (Jan 30, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> I'd say pretty good.:hmm3grin2orange:



HEY!!! 

Reported. :msp_mad:


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I'm beginning to think ol' Brad just don't like the kits watsonr and I sell.



I think he just doesn't like guys named Randy.


Or Bob.


----------



## Jacob J. (Jan 30, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I think he just doesn't like guys named Randy.
> 
> 
> Or Bob.



Bob and Tom.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Bob and Tom.



Good company, in my estimation. Others may not agree.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 30, 2013)

DSS said:


> HEY!!!
> 
> Reported. :msp_mad:


----------



## DSS (Jan 30, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


>




Nah nah. Pfffffffftttttt.


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 30, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Good company, in my estimation. Others may not agree.



Here, yes. On the radio, not so much.


----------



## DSS (Jan 30, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Good company, in my estimation. Others may not agree.




You mileage may vary. Or flip flop. Or sumthin.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> Here, yes. On the radio, not so much.



Sirius FTW.


----------



## 04ultra (Jan 30, 2013)

Tzed250 said:


> Oh snap!!!!



John .....Did you notice that mahle 460 kit I sent you came USPS.......I hear bad things  about shipping UPS......


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 30, 2013)

04ultra said:


> John .....Did you notice that mahle 460 kit I sent you came USPS.......I hear bad things  about shipping UPS......



I heard a story about them breaking cylinder fins. Turned out it was BS. :msp_wink:


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 30, 2013)

04ultra said:


> John .....Did you notice that mahle 460 kit I sent you came USPS.......I hear bad things  about shipping UPS......


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jan 30, 2013)

Isn't a 461 a quad port 460 ? More or less ?


----------



## watsonr (Jan 30, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Evidently needed a transfusion by post 367 or thereabouts and missed a couple of very direct questions on the subject?
> 
> No need for you to write a book and make my own eyes bleed and brain twist too much more trying to read or decipher it under such convoluted circumstances. I'm just interested in the facts and the "truth" by anyone who can legitimately offer both in this thread.
> 
> ...



The manufacturer makes kits and grades them by finish. Most are made to the same port opening, timing, bore size and/or a spec that he got from copying it from another cylinder or an engineer designed it and/or with input from someone. Those kits then get sorted and offered for sale as grade A, B, or even C. Someone grabs it and looks, says its good.. A pile it goes, decent, minor flaws...B pile.... wow.. its a pile of "C"rap. Your dealer then purchase them according to grade and whether they list that quality is up to them. You can bet that kits that are cheap may need help with the finishing (dremel, file, squared up mating surfaces) and normally don't carry a warranty.... Like the one Rikk got. He was told it was B quality and it may need help.. and he answered the call with a very nice write up you all saw. Not that there pure crap, just need a little help and MOST buyers will buy them because they can't afford an OEM part or can't justify it taking dinner off the table. They just want the saw to run as cheap as possible! First try may not be a charm... but most will run out of the box. Return rate is pretty low... you kept yours. By lunch time of the day you called to complain, he was over it.

All depends on who you buy from and if they insist on only good quality. MCW posted that he demanded a better quality after he inspected a bunch of them and testing revealed that some models were junk. He fed that back to them and they conformed or got dumped as a supplier... that simple. Your suppliers should be listening to you by tracking returns, reports of failures or success of happy sawyers. By you not returning the cylinder for a better one or asking for full refund sends the message "YOUR HAPPY".

There are some very good products out there and they cost a little more than dirt, they come with a warranty and are sold by suppliers that stand behind them... I want to make a difference, most places have terrible customer service, products are terrible because they don't demand improvement, money is tight everywhere and they buy cheap just like everybody else wants and does... until you say enough is enough.

I'm not going to judge someone else's product as to its quality and I'll bet, no one else will either except the supplier of said kit. I know that's not what you wanted to hear Pog, the truth sometimes it not very nice and no one will say it for fear of retaliation or embarrassment. That would be like asking Randy to tell you someones else's built saws are junk.... well Randy just might say that... because he's honest he'd say it to there face, not here!

I saw that Greg posted something about his products... GREAT. Were getting somewhere... at least two of us are listening!


----------



## almondgt (Jan 30, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Damn straight it is. Makes everyone sharpen their pencils.



I feel the the sharp point of a pencil everytime I spend money on new Husky parts from my local dealer........................that dude and his dudette have no competition and take no prisoners either:help:


----------



## MCW (Jan 31, 2013)

The funny thing about AS since this "like" function has been enabled is that you can see who is kissing who's arse and the contradictions stick out like dog's balls


----------



## 8433jeff (Jan 31, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Sirius FTW.



92 KQRS Minnesota's Classic Rock


----------



## DSS (Jan 31, 2013)

MCW said:


> The funny thing about AS since this "like" function has been enabled is that you can see who is kissing who's arse and the contradictions stick out like dog's balls




'Like'



You should probably take your dog in to the vet and get that checked Matt.


----------



## MCW (Jan 31, 2013)

DSS said:


> You should probably take your dog in to the vet and get that checked Matt.



It was the neighbour's dog. Honest.


----------



## Toad22t (Jan 31, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> What are you using to measure your squish? You seemed to have been frugal on parts and a compression gauge can we assume that you are using chicom measuring tools, as well?



I used solder to measure the squish as directed on many threads that I read on here. As for being frugal I don't think so. Every other part I put on this saw has been oem. I did alot of research on am p/c kits before going with the nwp kit that I installed. Now as for the compression gauge, I called my local Mac snap on and Cornwall reps and could not justify spending the amount of money that they wanted for there gauges. Once again if I were using these tools professionally and counting on them day in and day out, I would have ponied up the money for them. Now as for my measuring tools I used a micrometer and a digital caliper. If I would have had the 2 046 cylinders I have now I would have went that route instead, but since I didn't I went this route. But as mentioned before I havent been disappointed with the kit. All I would have wanted is a tighter squish with out having to do any machine work.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 31, 2013)

Toad22t said:


> I used solder to measure the squish as directed on many threads that I read on here. As for being frugal I don't think so. Every other part I put on this saw has been oem. I did alot of research on am p/c kits before going with the nwp kit that I installed. Now as for the compression gauge, I called my local Mac snap on and Cornwall reps and could not justify spending the amount of money that they wanted for there gauges. Once again if I were using these tools professionally and counting on them day in and day out, I would have ponied up the money for them. Now as for my measuring tools I used a micrometer and a digital caliper. If I would have had the 2 046 cylinders I have now I would have went that route instead, but since I didn't I went this route. But as mentioned before I havent been disappointed with the kit. All I would have wanted is a tighter squish with out having to do any machine work.



Keep an eye on ebay for a good gauge. I got the Proto gauge I have for 6 bucks new.


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 31, 2013)

MCW said:


> The funny thing about AS since this "like" function has been enabled is that you can see who is kissing who's arse and the contradictions stick out like dog's balls



I "like" this post but hesitate to kiss your ass. 

Especially since you are in Oz and I'm in TN. Long distance relationships never seem to work out.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 31, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I "like" this post but hesitate to kiss your ass.
> 
> Especially since you are in Oz and I'm in TN. Long distance relationships never seem to work out.


You didn't tell me that a while back.:msp_wub:


----------



## Mastermind (Jan 31, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> You didn't tell me that a while back.:msp_wub:



You ain't that far away either. :msp_w00t:


----------



## DSS (Jan 31, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> You didn't tell me that a while back.:msp_wub:




You can't just sneak around behind my back in open forums.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 31, 2013)

DSS said:


> You can't just sneak around behind my back in open forums.



He didn't seem to be sneaking? Quite the proud trollop, he is.


----------



## DSS (Jan 31, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> He didn't seem to be sneaking? Quite the proud trollop, he is.




You have no idea.


----------



## thomas1 (Jan 31, 2013)

DSS said:


> You have no idea.



Pics?


----------



## cowroy (Jan 31, 2013)

MCW said:


> The funny thing about AS since this "like" function has been enabled is that you can see who is kissing who's arse and the contradictions stick out like dog's balls



 That is literally the hardest I have laughed at anything on here in a while. My wife is sittin' here doin' this :msp_rolleyes:


----------



## stihl sawing (Jan 31, 2013)

DSS said:


> You can't just sneak around behind my back in open forums.


he's more convienent, i don't need a stump with him.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 31, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I know that's not what you wanted to hear Pog....
> I saw that Greg posted something about his products... GREAT. Were getting somewhere... at least two of us are listening!



Actually Randy, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks to both you and Gregg for taking the time to offer some insight from your respective positions. I just wish either one of you would have had a 361BB kit available when I was shopping for one! And wouldn't ya know it, I just ran across a nice OEM top end locally for sixty bux. May return the BB kit after all since I haven't committed it to the saw yet. But as mentioned previously, it didn't sound like the particular vendor was going to make any noise with his supplier about the quality, probably knowing what it was to begin with.

I was just hoping for at least a B+ AM kit for the money since I know they _DO_ actually exist. I'd just never bought one quite this nasty before and was surprised at how raggedy it was. Still am.


----------



## DSS (Jan 31, 2013)

stihl sawing said:


> he's more convienent, i don't need a stump with him.




I'm gonna remember that


----------



## wyk (Jan 31, 2013)

MCW said:


> It was the neighbour's dog. Honest.



Just so long as the peanut butter stays in the jar...

[video=youtube;9aNq8qBXWPM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aNq8qBXWPM[/video]


----------



## watsonr (Jan 31, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Actually Randy, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks to both you and Gregg for taking the time to offer some insight from your respective positions. I just wish either one of you would have had a 361BB kit available when I was shopping for one! And wouldn't ya know it, I just ran across a nice OEM top end locally for sixty bux. May return the BB kit after all since I haven't committed it to the saw yet. But as mentioned previously, it didn't sound like the particular vendor was going to make any noise with his supplier about the quality, probably knowing what it was to begin with.
> 
> I was just hoping for at least a B+ AM kit for the money since I know they _DO_ actually exist. I'd just never bought one quite this nasty before and was surprised at how raggedy it was. Still am.



I may have a solution for you SOON!!! Tecomec cylinders are considered to be as good or better than Meteor's from what I've read?


----------



## roostersgt (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I will try to address this in order so it is easier for you to follow.
> 
> *Thanks bunches. I guess I've not clearly understood your criticisms.* *Break out the popcorn and beer for this response. Against my better judgement, I felt a strong need to respond. Silly me.*
> 
> ...



*To the contrary. I believe I have added constructive criticism and a valid / informative alternative viewpoint to this thread. I'm willing to bet most builders/saw enthusiasts who subscribe to this site just want to learn to rebuild their saws as cheaply and reliably as possible, with the fewest numbers of problems possible, to OEM specs.*


----------



## 8433jeff (Feb 1, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> *To the contrary. I believe I have added constructive criticism and a valid / informative alternative viewpoint to this thread. I'm willing to bet most builders/saw enthusiasts who subscribe to this site just want to learn to rebuild their saws as cheaply and reliably as possible, with the fewest numbers of problems possible, to OEM specs.*



Well, teacherman, thanks for the lesson.

The cylinder on eBay you posted in your diatribe looks like it has been rode hard and put away wet. Try this one. Cylinder Piston Assy Stihl Chainsaw 066 MS660 54mm Defective | eBay

Or find a keeper from these three. 3 Stihl 066 MS660 064 Cylinder Original Stihl No Piston Rebuild Factory | eBay

Keep stuffing things like that with your Golf pistons. Many here would tell you they would be the last thing they put in a cylinder. Many of the same would tell you the cylinders are junk as well.

Worthy of the same money as the OP's kits? Worthy of the same time, treasure, and effort to install one of his kits? Even at a cheaper price? Not in my opinion. OEM specs may condemn the one you posted, as well as the ones I found, to the scrap pile. OEM performance from them? Please don't insult our intelligence by insisting its only to be found from a combination of OEM junk and cheap pistons and Caber rings.

So start a thread or two about your big bolt on performance from stuff that was more than likely taken off to be replaced with what the OP is talking about. I and others would welcome them. I'll even buy one, if you are willing to stand behind it, like the OP is doing.

Whatever you believe, you are convinced of it. If its right by you, then continue to believe that. To continue to disparage the parts the OP is posting about is wrong, however, without trying them. It doesn't matter how many other combinations you've tried, you haven't shown anybody anything except your bias, which you have said is based on feeling, not fact. A video, or some pics, would go a long way to support said beliefs, and you have shown none of either. 

But its the internets, so continue to post here if you feel better. If you still wonder why some here are questioning your motives and/or methods, then continue to provide comic relief.
Complain about the laughter if you want. I'll be ignoring it from here on out.


----------



## dozerdan (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I may have a solution for you SOON!!! Tecomec cylinders are considered to be as good or better than Meteor's from what I've read?



Tecomec cylinders are by far the nicest AM cylinder that I have ever had in my hands and their pistons are of equal quality. I have used the Tecomec line for about 10 years and I have never seen a bad one. That's why when I placed the order with you I specified Tecomec cylinder along with the Meteor pistons. I would much rather give you my money then Tilton.

Later
Dan


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

dozerdan said:


> Tecomec cylinders are by far the nicest AM cylinder that I have ever had in my hands and their pistons are of equal quality. I have used the Tecomec line for about 10 years and I have never seen a bad one. That's why when I placed the order with you I specified Tecomec cylinder along with the Meteor pistons. I would much rather give you my money then Tilton.
> 
> Later
> Dan



My paperwork to become an authorized Tecomec dealer was completed yesterday. I should have something very soon!


----------



## cowroy (Feb 1, 2013)

roostersgt, I am not arguing for or against you here, but I believe the cylinder you posted has had some grinding done to the lower transfers.


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

Morning... anybody for coffee?


----------



## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2013)

Longevity and reliability aside, I think most of the performance difference between OEM and aftermarket is in people's heads.


----------



## thinkrtinker (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Morning... anybody for coffee?



I admire your ability to keep marching in the parade of this thread. Cool heads normally win the race


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

cowroy said:


> roostersgt, I am not arguing for or against you here, but I believe the cylinder you posted has had some grinding done to the lower transfers.



Without a doubt. Good eye Justin.

To roostersgt (I don't know your name) Up until a few months ago I felt exactly the same way you do. Every aftermarket cylinder I had tried to use was lacking in some way. Even though I do port most every cylinder that crosses my bench I still wasn't happy with either the piston, the missing bore at the very top of the jug, the plating, etc. Sometimes I've even seen them out of round. 

I was very skeptical of the Meteor kits when I was contacted by watsonr (Randy) and even told him of my doubts. What he told me next and the fact that I've seen he was a man of his word is what compelled me to give them another look. I also spoke with Matt (a member in OZ) and he shared with me that he had found that by refusing to accept low quality kits he was now getting very nice ones.....he also sent me a kit that was very, very high in quality. So they are out there......just not every buyer is getting the upper levels of AM kit. 

Randy said that they had been in contact with some of the aftermarket suppliers and was having a dialog with them to help improve their products. He said that many of the issues I mentioned were being addressed and that the product was better. After seeing and using a few I'm convinced that what he said is true......they are much improved. Even Brad admitted that after much kicking and screaming. oke:

Does that mean that you or I can now go on ebay and buy any aftermarket kit and expect to receive a top performing kit.......unfortunately no. Matt and Randy both are doing the leg work to find these high quality kits and Matt has even shared his findings with us so that Randy can get these kits too. What some of us seem to be missing here is that these guys are beating the bushes to weed through the crap so that the end user (you and I) can get a top quality AM kit every time with a warranty.

Lets not let this turn into a battle.......instead let's attempt to be open-minded and at the least be grateful for the efforts of these guys.


----------



## cowroy (Feb 1, 2013)

I just went back and looked at the comparison Blsnelling did with the 046 comparing stock to untouched Meteor and the difference was .41 seconds. Now I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I am worried about when I cut wood is less than a half a second per cut. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck :msp_rolleyes:. It would be awesome if they would come out with kits for the Poulan 3700, 4000, 5200 series saws.


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> Longevity and reliability aside, I think most of the performance difference between OEM and aftermarket is in people's heads.




Unless you remove the ego, there isn't a lot of room in some of these guys heads.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I will try to address this in order so it is easier for you to follow.





roostersgt said:


> Thanks bunches. I guess I've not clearly understood your criticisms. Break out the popcorn and beer for this response. Against my better judgement, I felt a strong need to respond. Silly me.



I can see that didn't work. Maybe the breadcrumbs weren't big enough? Let's try again, but I think we all know you still aren't going to find the path.



thomas1 said:


> Yes, you have posted this several times. Say I need a cylinder for an 066, I just checked eBay because you claim there are new OEM cylinder and piston kits for around $150 to be easily found. Care to guess how many are on eBay, right now? Zero. Not a single new OEM P/C listed at any price. If I need my saw to cut wood, how long should I keep hoping someone lists one on eBay before I decide maybe they aren't as easy to find as you claim?





roostersgt said:


> Unsure if your question was simply rhetorical, or not, but, there is now a "good" used 066/660 piston and cylinder listed as "Buy it now" for less than $150. I'm certain if you add a set of $11 Caber rings from the Greek guy, it'll easily best any new AM kit you can purchase for the same money, and be far more reliable. Big saw parts like that don't come cheap and are never readily available, *but I've proved my point, and within a day.*
> 
> Stihl MS660 Magnum Chainsaw Cylinder Piston 066 | eBay



Way to go, you found a questionable *used* cylinder for $150. That's weird, because just a few posts ago you said that new OEM p/c sets could be had for that price, easily. Remember? I do.



roostersgt said:


> Also, I stated that new Stihl OEM cylinder and piston kits (in the box) are easily found on Ebay for around $150, the same price as the AM kits. Why would one use AM if one could use OEM for the same price, or within $10-$20 difference?



Where are they? I only asked you to find one example to support your argument. You keep spouting off about how cheap you can build with new OEM parts, but you can't find the parts? Doesn't seem nearly as easy as you claim, does it? Again, how many days should someone monitor eBay hoping a new p/c set is going to show up at the right time?

Just for kicks I checked completed listings for a new, OEM p/c for an 066. Imagine my surprise when there was only one. I almost fell over from the shock at the price as well, since I had been told by a very reliable source that they could be had for $150 all day long. 

Stihl Chainsaw Cylinder and Piston Kit 066 660 | eBay

I figured that must have been an anomaly, so I checked for 372 p/c. Guess what, none of those to be had for under $250 either. Wonder of wonders.



thomas1 said:


> I'm not sure what you know, your posts seem to contradict each other. Earlier you didn't have any answers as to why things happened and you were leaving it up to other people to figure it out.#





roostersgt said:


> Thought I already explained this. I don't care why an AM cylinder doesn't produce the same performance. I'm an end-user. I expect "bolt-on" performance when it's promised.#





thomas1 said:


> You stated that you have used AM parts and they were lower performing, yet you also say that you cannot be bothered to figure out why. How are you determining that the original parts need replaced if your can't be bothered to find out why the parts aren't working?





roostersgt said:


> I've not run across a single case of a cylinder failure being the cause of a saws demise in more than 40+ rebuilds. Cylinders are usually destroyed as a result of a "lean" condition, bearing failure, or stuff being sucked into the intake side (dirty filter). I've only replaced cylinders if they could not be cleaned up, had deep gouges / grooves, or I wanted to add CC's to a smaller saw in the same saw class.



So, your theory is that cylinders are never the reason a saw quits working, but people should spend twice as much money on an OEM cylinder, even though cylinders are never the cause of problems, in your vast, 40 saw experience? Why spend the extra money? You won't spend it on a piston, why a cylinder?



roostersgt said:


> I stated I believed it was due to lower squish/porting/compression etc... Am I supposed to try to figure out why my saw doesn't rev as quick, or cut as quickly after using the AM kit? I'm not an engineer and I don't build "hot saws" or ported saws. I simply rebuild factory saws to as close as factory as I can come. My experience has been that the saws I've rebuilt using AM cylinders have been slower in trigger response and slower in the wood when cutting, no matter how they're tuned. Every single time without fail. I've used NWP, Hutzl, Mako and a couple of "no brand" Chicom kits. They all proved lethargic compared to "good" used OEM cylinders with AM pistons and Caber rings, even though I replaced ALL of the rings on every single kit I've ever used with Cabers.



No, what you posted was that you had no idea why they didn't perform to your standards and couldn't be bothered to figure out why. Remember? I do.



roostersgt said:


> I'm not really sure why the performance is always lower with the kit cylinders. Ports? Squish? Compression? I don't know. I don't trust the readings on my compression testers either, and I don't waste time measuring other things I don't have the knowledge or skills to change.






thomas1 said:


> This thread is about a sponsor trying to sell parts and looking for constructive criticism, your input, so far, has been to tell people not to buy his parts without giving any reason other than you perceived them to perform at a lower level then the OEM. I have not seen where you gave any evidence to back this up, did I miss it somewhere?





roostersgt said:


> I get it. I'm not trying to sell anyone ANYTHING. I have used AM parts and am sharing my experience, along with some suggestions. That's what was asked for in this thread, input from past users of AM cylinders. So far, I'm more in favor of using OEM, be it new or used, period.



What is you input, other than to say "don't buy them" and then offer no explanation of why other than you perceived them to be lower performance? Do you have any measurable explanation of how or why they are lower performing? You already stated you can't take an accurate compression reading, you won't measure anything and you don't care about finding out why things aren't to your standard. 



thomas1 said:


> Why is hard for you to be nice? Just because someone disagrees with you and asks you questions is no reason to be anything but nice. I'm sorry that you feel that anyone who doesn't blanketly accept what you say as the gospel is fighting with you.#





roostersgt said:


> You're not asking questions in the usual manner. You're more accusatory and doubtful, for unknown reasons. Again, I'm not selling anything here, only giving my learned opinion regarding the cost benefit of AM kits. I don't own stock in Stihl and don't sell saws or parts on Ebay, or anywhere else. I'm simply a hobbyist builder who has spent money on many kits, which I deem to be inferior, cost-wise, and performance-wise to OEM, be it new or used.#



I am doubtful because you keep repeating the same thing, even when shown evidence to the contrary. Just because you believe it doesn't make it true in reality. 



thomas1 said:


> I would suggest that unless you have something to add other than "Don't buy aftermarket parts" you should probably focus on a different thread. The repetition of your mantra doesn't seem to be helping the discussion and you don't seem willing to add anything constructive.





roostersgt said:


> To the contrary. *I believe I have added constructive criticism and a valid / informative alternative viewpoint to this thread. *I'm willing to bet most builders/saw enthusiasts who subscribe to this site just want to learn to rebuild their saws as cheaply and reliably as possible, with the fewest numbers of problems possible, to OEM specs.



Again, just because _*you*_ believe it doesn't make it true in reality.

oop:


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Without a doubt. Good eye Justin.
> 
> To roostersgt (I don't know your name) Up until a few months ago I felt exactly the same way you do. Every aftermarket cylinder I had tried to use was lacking in some way. Even though I do port most every cylinder that crosses my bench I still wasn't happy with either the piston, the missing bore at the very top of the jug, the plating, etc. Sometimes I've even seen them out of round.
> 
> ...



tl;dr


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> tl;dr



I don't believe you. :msp_tongue:


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I can see that didn't work. Maybe the breadcrumbs weren't big enough? Let's try again, but I think we all know you still aren't going to find the path.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Can we go over this one more time? I'm just not sure exactly what your point is. 

Also, tl;dr. GTFO.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

DSS said:


> Can we go over this one more time? I'm just not sure exactly what your point is.
> 
> Also, tl;dr. GTFO.



I don't know if I have the energy. Hell, even you get it and you're Canadian.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I don't know if I have the energy. Hell, even you get it and your Canadian.



She's Canadian??????

Won't her milk freeze? 

:msp_unsure:


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I don't know if I have the energy. Hell, even you get it and your Canadian.



Are you telling me that you're too lazy to weld cooling fins back on? If not, you're in business here buster:

Cylinder Piston Assy Stihl Chainsaw 066 MS660 54mm Defective | eBay

Nevermind the fact that the shipping is only $27 dollah.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Are you telling me that you're too lazy to weld cooling fins back on? If not, you're in business here buster:
> 
> Cylinder Piston Assy Stihl Chainsaw 066 MS660 54mm Defective | eBay
> 
> Nevermind the fact that the shipping is only $27 dollah.



You must be stupid, like me, you couldn't find the pile of NOS, $150 066 cylinders either.

Ya big dummy.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> She's Canadian??????
> 
> Won't her milk freeze?
> 
> :msp_unsure:



Not when she wraps herself in those tiny kittens she's always trashing around with.


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> You must be stupid, like me, you couldn't find the pile of NOS, $150 066 cylinders either.
> 
> Ya big dummy.



I must not be typing the right words into the search engine.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Are you telling me that you're too lazy to weld cooling fins back on? If not, you're in business here buster:
> 
> Cylinder Piston Assy Stihl Chainsaw 066 MS660 54mm Defective | eBay
> 
> Nevermind the fact that the shipping is only $27 dollah.



I swear I've seen that cylinder somewhere before.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I swear I've seen that cylinder somewhere before.



Does look familiar doesn't it.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I swear I've seen that cylinder somewhere before.



Nothing is random.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Morning... anybody for coffee?



Well, after experiencing those last few rousing choruses of Kumbaya _again_ this morning, at 10:50a.m. EST, I already need a damned beer.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I must not be typing the right words into the search engine.



Maybe you just don't have enough experience at fixing saws and finding parts? Have you successfully rebuilt 40 saws in your career? I didn't think so. Slacker.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

That is not the cylinder you're thinking of. Way more fins missing on this one.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Feb 1, 2013)

:coffee: ill take some of that coffee


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I don't know if I have the energy. Hell, even you get it and your Canadian.



and that's in the summer.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> That is not the cylinder you're thinking of. Way more fins missing on this one.



Just oke: at ya Bradley. It's all good. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

DSS said:


> and that's in the summer.



You seem to be confused. Maybe it because your teets are frozed again. :msp_unsure:


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

Now that I look at it closer, I don't see no stinkin' broken fins. What's the problem?!


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I must not be typing the right words into the search engine.


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> You seem to be confused. Maybe it because your teets are frozed again. :msp_unsure:



I am. Very confused. You guys are ganging up on me again. I may need therapy.:msp_unsure:


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)




----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

DSS said:


> I am. Very confused. You guys are ganging up on me again. I may need therapy.:msp_unsure:



I think you thrive on being gangbanged.....err I mean ganged up on. :msp_unsure:


----------



## andydodgegeek (Feb 1, 2013)

Damn! Tough crowd in here. Remember they are only chainsaws.:biggrin:


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I think you thrive on being gangbanged.....err I mean ganged up on. :msp_unsure:



allegedly:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

andydodgegeek said:


> Damn! Tough crowd in here. Remember they are only chainsaws.:biggrin:



You should see the vintage bike crowd...some of those guys would almost shoot each other for parts and whatnot.


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> You should see the vintage bike crowd...some of those guys would almost shoot each other for parts and whatnot.



It would be like that here except us sensible people tend to mellow things out.:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## Tzed250 (Feb 1, 2013)

I thought it was surch injun????


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Feb 1, 2013)

cowroy said:


> roostersgt, I am not arguing for or against you here, but I believe the cylinder you posted has had some grinding done to the lower transfers.




Hey!.....that cylinder's got a $250 port job......Hahahahahaha!


----------



## tlandrum (Feb 1, 2013)

thats udderly rediculous :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Feb 1, 2013)

tlandrum said:


> thats udderly rediculous :hmm3grin2orange:



You port that one tdrum?......:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## tlandrum (Feb 1, 2013)

looks like one of those cali phonia port jobs to me.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Feb 1, 2013)

tlandrum said:


> looks like one of those cali phonia port jobs to me.



Nope!.....no sanding marks!:msp_rolleyes:......maybe practice job from Ohio?:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Hey!.....that cylinder's got a $250 port job......Hahahahahaha!



Is that all you do to them, Dennis?:msp_ohmy:


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Is that all you do to them, Dennis?:msp_ohmy:



This is where your "everybody is picking on me and I didn't do anything" theory falls apart.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> This is where your "everybody is picking on me and I didn't do anything" theory falls apart.



Give it up Thomas. I can play too.


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Give it up Thomas. I can play too.



Playing is great, it's the inevitable crying that is annoying.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Playing is great, it's the inevitable crying that is annoying.



Whatever:bang:


----------



## roostersgt (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind,

I too am thankful someone is trying to give us another option. If I had your porting skills and tools, I too would probably pick up and use some AM cylinders. My criticism, aside from my "perceived" lackluster experiences with them, is that for around the same money the Meteor kits are going for ($150+), I can usually find a new OEM kit on Ebay, at least for Stihl 440's, 039's, 029's, 260's and 036's. I've had very good luck there. I've never even bothered to look for a 066 kit, as I haven't found one cheap enough to rebuild. Not many around my area. If I had one, and just wanted to get it running, I might try a Meteor kit, but if I had to depend on that saw to earn a living, no way would I risk it, warranty or not. I may be wrong, but I don't believe warranties cover bearings/crankshaft etc.... should there be a catastrophic plating/piston failure. 

I'm not sure why Golf pistons are getting a bad rap. I've used a couple on 039's and haven't noticed any problems. They're a little heavier than Stihl OEM, as are VEC's, but the saws still rev as they should. Sorry Polar guy, but I don't have any pics, or video, of me weighing them on my digital gram scale. IMHO, pistons do not affect performance as much as cylinders and rings, as long as they are machined well.


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

This thread is making my digestive tract move. And stuff.


----------



## roostersgt (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> This thread is making my digestive tract move. And stuff.



Mine too. It does have 34 pages though. I ran out of wood to cut, so I'm back to bantering for a bit.


----------



## Gologit (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> This thread is making my digestive tract move. And stuff.



Yup.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> This thread is making my digestive tract move. And stuff.




that jiggy thing goin on again ?


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Mine too. It does have 34 pages though. I ran out of wood to cut, so I'm back to bantering for a bit.



While bantering, feel free to address any questions that may have been asked of you, rather than pretending they didn't happen.

While you're at it, tell me how many new OEM p/c kits for the 036,044,026,064,066,262,266,268,272,346,372,357 etc. are available. 

Maybe if you search long enough you'll realize why these kits are a good option for lots of people. Or maybe you'll just keep telling everyone that OEM kits available for the same price, when they are not.


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> This thread is making my digestive tract move. And stuff.




Yeah. Move over. And stuff.


----------



## roostersgt (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> While bantering, feel free to address any questions that may have been asked of you, rather than pretending they didn't happen.
> 
> While you're at it, tell me how many new OEM p/c kits for the 036,044,026,064,066,262,266,268,272,346,372,357 etc. are available.
> 
> Maybe if you search long enough you'll realize why these kits are a good option for lots of people. Or maybe you'll just keep telling everyone that OEM kits available for the same price, when they are not.



Stihl Chainsaw Cylinder and Piston Kit 064 640 | eBay

Plus a couple of 260 kits, a 041 kit, 029,039 and 210 kits out there today. All can be had for under $170, most for $150.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Hey!.....that cylinder's got a $250 port job......Hahahahahaha!



I wouldn't do all that for less than 500.00 :msp_w00t:



Gologit said:


> Yup.



Are you complaining about member moderation?


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Stihl Chainsaw Cylinder and Piston Kit 064 640 | eBay
> 
> Plus a couple of 260 kits, a 041 kit, 029,039 and 210 kits out there today. All can be had for under $170, most for $150.



I gave a twelve of the most popular saws to choose from and you found one kit is at $160 with four days left to go in the auction. Again, for the umpteenth time, find a $150, new OEM P/C kit for a non-clamshell Stihl or Husqvarna. Seems you've been looking for 2 days and haven't found any?


----------



## Gologit (Feb 1, 2013)

I really hate to interrupt all the bickering with a relevant question but...

On these aftermarket kits...does anybody here have a couple of hundred hours, preferably more, on them?

The OEM vs aftermarket argument will probably go on forever but the true test is how long the saw will run.

I'm not looking for "should" or "could"...I want to hear from somebody who has actually run the AM kits in a real world environment for a good length of time. I think a lot of us would like to know that.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I really hate to interrupt all the bickering with a relevant question but...
> 
> On these aftermarket kits...does anybody here have a couple of hundred hours, preferably more, on them?
> 
> ...



I gave a saw to a friend to use in a logging environment over a year ago with a Meteor cylinder and piston. It's still running.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I really hate to interrupt all the bickering with a relevant question but...
> 
> ...I want to hear from somebody who has actually run the AM kits in a real world environment for a good length of time.



It'd be my silly wild-ass guess that those folks don't spend all day reading this stuff and could give a rat's ass about all this petty BS in the first place. Probably busy cuttin' wood.

The question I have?

Who has the tranquilizer darts for the cow, chicken, and bear?


----------



## Gologit (Feb 1, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> It'd be my silly wild-ass guess that those folks don't spend all day reading this stuff and could give a rat's ass about all this petty BS in the first place. Probably busy cuttin' wood.
> 
> The question I have?
> 
> Who has the tranquilizer darts for the cow, chicken, and bear?



I do. I have one for the possum, too...if he gets rowdy. 

And you're right...a lot of those guys are out working. But maybe they'll scroll through this mess, see my question, and answer it. Never hurts to try.


----------



## tlandrum (Feb 1, 2013)

i tried running some of the early am kits with no success. i tried to bolt it up and run it. no dice,bad port beveling,bad piston,bad rings take your pick they failed within a few grs or days. i did go ahead and port on of the kits and put a better piston and rings in it and as far as i know its still out there running today. so i would guess that with the proper work they could possibly be able to make it in the real world. but i havent had one in my hands that will bolt and go. when quality gets up to the point of bolt and go i may try it again but for now im still using oem cylinders and oem or meteor pistons.


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I really hate to interrupt all the bickering with a relevant question but...
> 
> On these aftermarket kits...does anybody here have a couple of hundred hours, preferably more, on them?
> 
> ...



Here's my experiences so far-

1.- I ran a MS-460 Big Bore kit from Bailey's from spring of 2006 to spring of 2007 on a rebuilt MS-460 while I was cutting timber as a contractor for a logging company out of Glide, OR. The last sale I cut with that saw was 4.25 million board feet of mostly straight falling (sending trees straight down the hill, to be yarded out tree length and processed on the landing.) It had OEM wrist pin and clips, and OEM 066 rings. I was cutting mostly softwood (Doug Fir, Incense Cedar, some Ponderosa Pine, and a little Chinkapin.) That saw ran great and the cylinder had minor port work done by me. After the last sale I traded it to a fire wood cutter for a load of wood for my grandmother. I had approx. 600 hours on that top end. That saw cut firewood for two more years before the bottom end went out. 

2.- I ran a MS-440 Big Bore kit also from Bailey's, also with OEM wrist pin, clips, and Caber rings on a snag falling job for the U.S. Forest Service at Diamond Lake, OR., in 2008. I cut approx. 700 snags, mostly Lodgepole and Shasta Fir, varying from 13" to 60" in diameter. I had about 300 hours on that saw before selling it to a member here. Last time I checked, it was still running good as an occasional use firewood saw. It also had mild port work by me. 

3.- In the winter of 2009, I built a Big Bore 372 with a Meteor brand 064 piston. I used OEM 064 wrist pin and clips. I used that saw on a fuels reduction job for BLM over in Lakeview, OR, for about 400 hours before selling it on Craigslist. The new owner contacted me in April, '12 to say that the top ring had broken but the cylinder and piston were unblemished and he was re-ringing it. He's an occasional tree-service guy out of Grants Pass. 

4.- I built and traded a Big Bore 372 to a member here, also with an 064 piston and rings (OEM) for use on his farm and for firewood. That was in 2010. That saw is still running. 

5.- Back in early 2006, I built a big bore 046 for a guy in Maryland (furniture maker.) I put a couple hours on it before shipping. He got it, ran it for about 4 hours before it popped a wrist pin clip and wiped out the whole top end. This was the one experience that taught me to use OEM wrist pins and clips where applicable. I sent him a whole new top end and he installed it. Bailey's stood behind that one.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I do. I have one for the possum, too...if he gets rowdy.
> 
> And you're right...a lot of those guys are out working. But maybe they'll scroll through this mess, see my question, and answer it. Never hurts to try.



FWIW, my first rebuild experience several years ago was an 026 with a roached top end due to the typical bad flywheel side crank seal. (...my seal pulling technique being well-documented in a couple of threads...)

Being nearly as clueless then as I am now, I blindly bought a NWP kit from Bailey's, slapped the thing on without doing any of the cleanup and prep stuff ya should normally do, and been runnin' the snot out of the saw since.

The relevant components to this discussion are simply quality vs. dollars, and the customer service guarantees that accompany both from whatever sources of similar products. Period.

So shoot me now. Please?

Or at least...


----------



## roostersgt (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> I gave a twelve of the most popular saws to choose from and you found one kit is at $160 with four days left to go in the auction. Again, for the umpteenth time, find a $150, new OEM P/C kit for a non-clamshell Stihl or Husqvarna. Seems you've been looking for 2 days and haven't found any



Stihl MS260 is a "Pro" saw. 4 available for $159 from one seller.

New Stihl Chainsaw 44 7mm Piston Cylinder 026 MS 260 Pro MS260 1121 020 1215 | eBay

Stihl 041 is an older "Pro" saw. $129

Stihl Chainsaw 44mm Cylinder Only Older 041 Series Cyl 1110 020 1200 | eBay

Pretty sure another 036 and 440 cylinder kit will come up again soon. They're out there. I don't do Husky's. My bad on the 064 cylinder. Bet it goes for less than $180. I've had luck offering before auctions closes and have had them cancel auction and re-list as "buy it now". Point being, OEM kits are out there at the price I stated. I bought them. I've used them. Find them all the time.


----------



## paccity (Feb 1, 2013)

man after 35 pages and all it took for me is to read at least one post to get a fairly strait forward answer on if they work in the real world. thanks bob for asking and jj for answering . now i a'm at peace.


----------



## PJF1313 (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit - 

I bought a couple (2) kits/set-ups from Rand (W) 2 weeks ago. When life gets back to somewhat normal, I have 3x 385's that need help. I should be able to get 2 runners out of 3. One will be set up as a mill - 24" I'll be milling anything from Cedar to Oak to the longest/straightest possible Cherry I can find on this sand bar..

If it can survive milling a few board feet at a go, the other should handle felling and bucking. 

Hopefully, mid Feb, I'll have some time to get them rebuilt, and maybe put out some planks.


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Here's my experiences so far-
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can't wait to see the reasoning the saw gods come up with to declare this post invalid. 

BOOYA!!!!!!!


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

roostersgt said:


> Stihl MS260 is a "Pro" saw. 4 available for $159 from one seller.
> 
> New Stihl Chainsaw 44 7mm Piston Cylinder 026 MS 260 Pro MS260 1121 020 1215 | eBay



$10 over your budget and not an 026 cylinder. But wait, you say, it will bolt on. Correct, and the newer ms260 cylinders have been shown to be less powerful than the earlier 026 cylinders. Isn't being less powerful the reason you won't run an aftermarket cylinder?



roostergt said:


> Stihl 041 is an older "Pro" saw. $129
> 
> Stihl Chainsaw 44mm Cylinder Only Older 041 Series Cyl 1110 020 1200 | eBay



Good find on that one. Except for the fact that it is only a cylinder, no piston and rings are included. I now realize why it is so easy for you to find "good" used stuff, you have no clue what you are looking at and don't read very well. 

I can't wait for you to make your fortune putting $150+ worth of parts into 025's and 041's.




roostergt said:


> Pretty sure another 036 and 440 cylinder kit will come up again soon.



I'm pretty sure your theory goes out the window if you look at completed auctions. I'm also pretty sure I can call watsonr and get a cylinder shipped tomorrow.



roostersgt said:


> They're out there. I don't do Husky's. My bad on the 064 cylinder. Bet it goes for less than $180. I've had luck offering before auctions closes and have had them cancel auction and re-list as "buy it now". Point being, OEM kits are out there at the price I stated. I bought them. I've used them. *Find them all the time.*



Today is evidently not included in all the time? How about you buy that 064 cylinder and I will pay you $180 for it? If you are buying these cylinders for $150 all the time why wouldn't you just resell them as other suckers seem to be more than willing to pay $250 for them? I'd think $100 profit per p/c would be pretty good?


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Here's my experiences so far-
> 
> 1.- I ran a MS-460 Big Bore kit from Bailey's from spring of 2006 to spring of 2007 on a rebuilt MS-460 while I was cutting timber as a contractor for a logging company out of Glide, OR. The last sale I cut with that saw was 4.25 million board feet of mostly straight falling (sending trees straight down the hill, to be yarded out tree length and processed on the landing.) It had OEM wrist pin and clips, and OEM 066 rings. I was cutting mostly softwood (Doug Fir, Incense Cedar, some Ponderosa Pine, and a little Chinkapin.) That saw ran great and the cylinder had minor port work done by me. After the last sale I traded it to a fire wood cutter for a load of wood for my grandmother. I had approx. 600 hours on that top end. That saw cut firewood for two more years before the bottom end went out.
> 
> ...



tl;dr


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

DSS said:


> I can't wait to see the reasoning the saw gods come up with to declare this post invalid.
> 
> BOOYA!!!!!!!



No mention of how the saws did in the hardcut?


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

DSS said:


> I can't wait to see the reasoning the saw gods come up with to declare this post invalid.
> 
> BOOYA!!!!!!!



Somebody somewhere will try to discredit it and that's fine. The good thing about me, is that I keep excellent documentation and all of my experience is verifiable. 

I had an early boss who said "If it ain't on paper, it didn't happen."


----------



## AUSSIE1 (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> I'd be all over some quality high-performance AM cylinders. I'm willing to pay for quality. A quad-port 460 would be right up my alley



Quad ports aye? One way to get a customer BACK to the AM cyls! :msp_wink:


----------



## Gologit (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Somebody somewhere will try to discredit it and that's fine. The good thing about me, is that I keep excellent documentation and all of my experience is verifiable.
> 
> I had an early boss who said "If it ain't on paper, it didn't happen."



LOL...I always kept a good day-book too but it was mostly to keep the money straight and IRS off my back. Kinda fun to read back through them from time to time.."I did that??!!"

Thanks for the good info.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Somebody somewhere will try to discredit it and that's fine. The good thing about me, is that I keep excellent documentation and all of my experience is verifiable.
> 
> I had an early boss who said *"If it ain't on paper, it didn't happen."*



That's the craziest thing I've ever heard.......and all this time I thought you were one of the sane ones here. 

This ain't on paper and it's real.......

Meteor cylinder and piston on a Stihl MS440 that's making 40% more power than stock. :msp_biggrin:

[video=youtube;klhkM9QDfkA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klhkM9QDfkA&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=5[/video]


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> No mention of how the saws did in the hardcut?



LMAO. I think that was just cinderblock macs. 



Jacob J. said:


> Somebody somewhere will try to discredit it and that's fine. The good thing about me, is that I keep excellent documentation and all of my experience is verifiable.
> 
> I had an early boss who said "If it ain't on paper, it didn't happen."



The good thing about you is, nobody needs any documentation to believe you. You may be a pain by times, but its in a non FOS kind of way. :msp_wink:


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> LOL...I always kept a good day-book too but it was mostly to keep the money straight and IRS off my back. Kinda fun to read back through them from time to time.."I did that??!!"
> 
> Thanks for the good info.



Yeah, but here we go again... confusin' everyone with the facts.

Ok. I'll go now.:msp_wink:


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

Gologit said:


> LOL...I always kept a good day-book too but it was mostly to keep the money straight and IRS off my back. Kinda fun to read back through them from time to time.."I did that??!!"
> 
> Thanks for the good info.



When I was working for Huff & Puff's shop ten years ago, we had two guys come in looking for jobs. One guy was 51, claiming around 27 years of falling experience. The other guy was in his mid-40's claiming 18 years of small engine background and 10 years on the ground high-lead rigging experience. 

We could only verify about 3 years of work history for the small engine/high lead guy and probably about 5 years of work history for the timber faller, none of which was timber cutting experience. They had no records, couldn't remember supervisor's names and numbers, couldn't even remember company names or dates of employment- didn't even have tax records for the years they were claiming.


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> That's the craziest thing I've ever heard.......and all this time I thought you were one of the sane ones here.
> 
> This ain't on paper and it's real.......
> 
> Meteor cylinder and piston on a Stihl MS440 that's making 40% more power than stock. :msp_biggrin:



I still think you made that out of Psilocybe Cyanescens, bat wings, and fairy dust.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I still think you made that out of Psilocybe Cyanescens, bat wings, and fairy dust.



Yeah, what a buzz kill.

Ok. I _WILL_ go now.

My work is done here.


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

Hey Pog,
I ordered you a Tecomec cylinder kit for that 361..... interested?


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 1, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I still think you made that out of *Psilocybe Cyanescens*, bat wings, and fairy dust.



Or maybe I just ate too many.........


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

Dealer status confirmed... check my signature for deals on Tecomec cylinder kits. I just might be the only one here offering them.:msp_w00t:


----------



## almondgt (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Dealer status confirmed... check my signature for deals on Tecomec cylinder kits. I just might be the only one here offering them.:msp_w00t:



What is the warranty?........I know, I saw an opening and took it.................


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

I'm happy to see the efforts that are being made to improve the quality of these kits. Kudos to WatsonR for selling them with Caber rings, and the leg work he's currently doing. Caber rings are top notch, and will eliminate one of the major causes of failure in these kits. MCW is dead on that these kits need to be inspected before being shipped. Someone has to do the QC if the manufacture isn't. I love hearing from Gregg about possible quad-port cylinders! 

I've caught a LOT of flack since raising the issues I did with these kits a few weeks ago. The way I went about it was less than stellar, but I still stand by my position 100%. There's a reason that 95% of the guys that build and sell saws demand OEM or similiar quality. Like WatsonR said, if no one complains, nothing's going to improve. I'm willing to be the bad guy. Someone's got to tell it like it is, or they just continue to be problematic. I would love to have AM options that are OEM quality, just as much as the rest of you guys.

On another note, showing how these topends can run and how they hold up after porting and squish band cutting, does nothing to validate any quality improvements in these kits. You're only re-using the basic casting and the bore plating. Bore plating has not been a major contributor to the failure of these kits. Bailey's addressed that long ago when they went to NiSi, instead of chrome. This thread is about replacement topend quality as they come from the factory, not about what they can be turned into by an experience engine builder/porter? I don't think anyone will deny what the likes of Mastermind and Jacob J can turn these into. But, that's not what's being advertised and sold in this thread. What the market needs is a kit than can be bolted on without concerns of fitment and quality, just like 99% of OEM parts can be.

WatsonR, Gregg, MCW...keep up the good work. It looks like we're moving in the right direction


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Dealer status confirmed... check my signature for deals on Tecomec cylinder kits. I just might be the only one here offering them.:msp_w00t:



Sounds like another great step forward. I'm not seeing the link to them.


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

almondgt said:


> What is the warranty?........I know, I saw an opening and took it.................



I'm glad you asked... I did kind of leave that off:msp_wink:

Think they need one, OEM doesn't carry one and these are as good.....


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> don't get me wrong here, i enjoy taking a poke at someone elses' post on occasion. but , do you to idiots ever give it a rest? this is getting a little bit rediculous. why can't you just agree to disagree on something, instead of bickering on like kids? it is cute for a while, but not for days on end. maybe if you would both get a life and a job, you could do something besides follow each other around here with quotes. grow the f**k up!!!



There's nothing to agree on. The guy came in to a thread about aftermarket p/c kits saying no one should buy them because he buys new, OEM p/c kits for the same price all the time. I gave him a list of 12 saws and asked him to find one available at his quoted price. He has danced all around it and hasn't found one yet.

If you'd like me to agree that he is full of oop:, then yes, I agree.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2013)

CATDIESEL said:


> don't get me wrong here, i enjoy taking a poke at someone elses' post on occasion. but , do you to idiots ever give it a rest? this is getting a little bit rediculous. why can't you just agree to disagree on something, instead of bickering on like kids? it is cute for a while, but not for days on end. maybe if you would both get a life and a job, you could do something besides follow each other around here with quotes. grow the f**k up!!!



Terminal case of lastworditis .


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Sounds like another great step forward. I'm not seeing the link to them.



Henry needs to fix the site a little more... but this will get you on the right page. We also have been working on Mako brand, there are none of those kits on this link.

Weedeaterman - Tecomec Cylinder Kits These Kits are special order due to the cost.  I alos Include Free shipping.  They also come with a 90 day Warrenty, they fail, you send it to me, I then send you a new one free.  Also here is my take and experien


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> I've caught a LOT of flack since raising the issues I did with these kits a few weeks ago. The way I went about it was less than stellar, but I still stand by my position 100%. There's a reason that 95% of the guys that build and sell saws demand OEM or similiar quality. Like WatsonR said, if no one complains, nothing's going to improve. I'm willing to be the bad guy. Someone's got to tell it like it is, or they just continue to be problematic. I would love to have AM options that are OEM quality, just as much as the rest of you guys.



Now _*you're*_ the guy responsible for the improvements in these kits? What size hat do you wear?


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> I'm glad you asked... I did kind of leave that off:msp_wink:
> 
> Think they need one, OEM doesn't carry one and these are as good.....



The Tecomec kits have a 90 warranty as well as the Meteors.


----------



## DSS (Feb 1, 2013)




----------



## edisto (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Is that all you do to them, Dennis?:msp_ohmy:



BUILD OFF!!!!!!


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Hey Pog,
> I ordered you a Tecomec cylinder kit for that 361..... interested?



Yep. 47mm I presume? I'm returning the BB kit I bought. Cylinder had possibilities, but the piston was pure junk. 

Shoot me a PM.

Thanks.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Henry needs to fix the site a little more... but this will get you on the right page. We also have been working on Mako brand, there are none of those kits on this link.
> 
> Weedeaterman - Tecomec Cylinder Kits#These Kits are special order due to the cost.# I alos Include Free shipping.# They also come with a 90 day Warrenty, they fail, you send it to me, I then send you a new one free.# Also here is my take and experien



Thanks.


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Henry needs to fix the site a little more... but this will get you on the right page. We also have been working on Mako brand, there are none of those kits on this link.
> 
> Weedeaterman - Tecomec Cylinder Kits#These Kits are special order due to the cost.# I alos Include Free shipping.# They also come with a 90 day Warrenty, they fail, you send it to me, I then send you a new one free.# Also here is my take and experien



The fact that you have a Tecomec kit available for the MS-361 is one cool deal.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 1, 2013)

Does Tecomec not have kits for other current production Stihl and Husky saws?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Feb 1, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> There's nothing to agree on.
> If you'd like me to agree that he is full of oop:, then yes, I agree.



Guess that settles it.


----------



## Eccentric (Feb 1, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Henry needs to fix the site a little more... but this will get you on the right page. We also have been working on Mako brand, there are none of those kits on this link.
> 
> Weedeaterman - Tecomec Cylinder Kits#These Kits are special order due to the cost.# I alos Include Free shipping.# They also come with a 90 day Warrenty, they fail, you send it to me, I then send you a new one free.# Also here is my take and experien



I wonder why Tecomic only does the 50mm P/C for the 266/268/272 saws (rather than 52mm stock size for the 272) and the 48mm P/C for the 365/371/371 saws (rather than 50mm stock bore for a 371/372). 

I'd like to see a 54mm top end for the 266/268/272 saws. Not sure if it'd be practical.....but it'd be fun to try out. 78cc 266/288/272XP anyone? 

I would also like to see the Tecomic kits for the 181/281/288 saws (in the 54mm 288XP bore size) and 1100/2100/298/2101 saws. Maybe I've said this before.........:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## watsonr (Feb 1, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Does Tecomec not have kits for other current production Stihl and Husky saws?



They emailed a list of current production models. I'll ask Henry to see what else they have, but this may be it.... better than nothing!


----------



## albert (Feb 2, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> On another note, showing how these topends can run and how they hold up after porting and squish band cutting, does nothing to validate any quality improvements in these kits. You're only re-using the basic casting and the bore plating. Bore plating has not been a major contributor to the failure of these kits. Bailey's addressed that long ago when they went to NiSi, instead of chrome. This thread is about replacement topend quality as they come from the factory, not about what they can be turned into by an experience engine builder/porter? I don't think anyone will deny what the likes of Mastermind and Jacob J can turn these into.



I have been told that some newer cylinders are chrome bore oem, ms361 being one of them.


----------



## wyk (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> BUILD OFF!!!!!!



Yeah. When's the build-off? That's what this was inevitably heading towards, right?


----------



## thomas1 (Feb 2, 2013)

reindeer said:


> Yeah. When's the build-off? That's what this was inevitably heading towards, right?



You mean an aftermarket vs. OEM build-off?




DSS said:


> [video=youtube;ulNVq-5uQts]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ulNVq-5uQts[/video]


----------



## one.man.band (Feb 2, 2013)

maybe a shot in the dark:

hope is that a CASTING/FOUNDRY/MANUFACTURER located and made here IN THE USA by chance reads this entire thread and contacts the parts suppliers on this site for work orders. (or vice-versa).

-OMB

ps. if specific requests could be made for custom cylinder port layouts/pistons/rings/clips etc., and maybe manufacture a line hi-performance versions based on porters/modifyers/builders port time areas, of "signature series parts".


----------



## DSS (Feb 2, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> You mean an aftermarket vs. OEM build-off?




Yeah. We already beat that donkey. By accident.


----------



## edisto (Feb 2, 2013)

reindeer said:


> Yeah. When's the build-off? That's what this was inevitably heading towards, right?



I was talking about Dennis and Brad...


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> I was talking about Dennis and Brad...



Why?


----------



## watsonr (Feb 2, 2013)

one.man.band said:


> maybe a shot in the dark:
> 
> hope is that a CASTING/FOUNDRY/MANUFACTURER located and made here IN THE USA by chance reads this entire thread and contacts the parts suppliers on this site for work orders. (or vice-versa).
> 
> ...



Nobody makes these in the US. What's really bad is that they are buying eachothers cylinders and pistons,adding rings and calling it "there's". Bad cylinders are bad cylinders and just because it has your name on it doesn't make it any better! Look very carefully at the aftermarket piston thread just started, they are both GOLF pistons. You can even see the casting are almost the same near the pin opening pictured and the name GOLF is there, just badly cast. I was hoping he'd get good piston out of it for his effort. Just need to figure out how to compensate him for it!


----------



## watsonr (Feb 2, 2013)

This thread is killing some if you! 

It was not started to announce a build off, an us against them or whatever you may think along those lines but to tell you the world is changing and that we must change with it. If we are presented an opportunity, it carries an obligation to shape that change. What's really distressing to me is that a good portion of you think there isn't any recourse. Change happens with the right pressure in the right spot... Often with a kick in the pants and those that don't adapt, change or overcome........ inevitably become extinct.


----------



## edisto (Feb 2, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Why?



Because the cable is out, and I can't watch Toddlers and Tiaras.


----------



## edisto (Feb 2, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Nobody makes these in the US. What's really bad is that they are buying eachothers cylinders and pistons,adding rings and calling it "there's". Bad cylinders are bad cylinders and just because it has your name on it doesn't make it any better! Look very carefully at the aftermarket piston thread just started, they are both GOLF pistons. You can even see the casting are almost the same near the pin opening pictured and the name GOLF is there, just badly cast. I was hoping he'd get good piston out of it for his effort. Just need to figure out how to compensate him for it!



As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.

I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.


----------



## tlandrum (Feb 2, 2013)

i changed muh underwear last month,does it count. this month i turn them inside out and use the clean side.but im not against change:msp_scared:


----------



## watsonr (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> Because the cable is out, and I can't watch Toddlers and Tiaras.



Honey Boo Boo also... Crappy way to start the day!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.
> 
> I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.



I disagree. At near $300 for a Stihl OEM 441 P/C it damn well should be a bolt and go. So far the one and only that I have done is.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Feb 2, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> On another note, showing how these topends can run and how they hold up after porting and squish band cutting, does nothing to validate any quality improvements in these kits. You're only re-using the basic casting and the bore plating. Bore plating has not been a major contributor to the failure of these kits. Bailey's addressed that long ago when they went to NiSi, instead of chrome. This thread is about replacement topend quality as they come from the factory, not about what they can be turned into by an experience engine builder/porter? I don't think anyone will deny what the likes of Mastermind and Jacob J can turn these into. But, that's not what's being advertised and sold in this thread. What the market needs is a kit than can be bolted on without concerns of fitment and quality, just like 99% of OEM parts can be.



Exactly, your best post in some time!


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.
> 
> I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.





Modifiedmark said:


> I disagree. At near $300 for a Stihl OEM 441 P/C it damn well should be a bolt and go. So far the one and only that I have done is.


Mark, your experience with OEM is not the exception, rather the rule IMHO. It disturbs me that we're still, generally speaking, saying the kits posted in the OP are basically there, over inflating the AM quality, and trying to bring OEM down. That's sales, and does not facilitate the goal of continued improvement. Now don't throw me under the bus. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree. There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc. Are we making progress? *In some cases, yes*, other cases, not so much. *A couple of those cylinders look fantastic*, particularly, the Husky ones. 



Modifiedmark said:


> Exactly, your best post in some time!


I tried hard. There are one or two guys on here that make it nearly impossible to have a conversation with any kind of constructive criticism, which is required for change. If we don't point out the deficiencies, how are they going to fix them?


----------



## ZeroJunk (Feb 2, 2013)

I have still not had any problems with plain old eBay aftermarket kits or NWP. I clean them up a little if necessary, maybe 10 minutes all together on anything that looks like it could come loose. I use the rings and clips that come with the kit most of the time. Sometimes I bend a clip being clumsy and fat fingered and need to replace it. But, overall I don't see what the big deal is. I have yet to have one come back.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Mark, your experience with OEM is not the exception, rather the rule IMHO. It disturbs me that we're still, generally speaking, saying the kits posted in the OP are basically there, over inflating the AM quality, and trying to bring OEM down. That's sales, and does not facilitate the goal of continued improvement. Now don't throw me under the bus. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree. There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc. Are we making progress? *In some cases, yes*, other cases, not so much. *A couple of those cylinders look fantastic*, particularly, the Husky ones.
> 
> 
> I tried hard. There are one or two guys on here that make it nearly impossible to have a conversation with any kind of *constructive criticis*m, which is required for change. If we don't point out the deficiencies, how are they going to fix them?



I still don't see where you were being constructive with this thread. 

I'm not trying to stir the #### but the way you flip around makes it tough to follow along.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/216455.htm


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 2, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Mark, your experience with OEM is not the exception, rather the rule IMHO. It disturbs me that we're still, generally speaking, saying the kits posted in the OP are basically there, over inflating the AM quality, and trying to bring OEM down. That's sales, and does not facilitate the goal of continued improvement. Now don't throw me under the bus. That's my opinion, and you don't have to agree. There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc. Are we making progress? *In some cases, yes*, other cases, not so much. *A couple of those cylinders look fantastic*, particularly, the Husky ones.



I agree with some of your points Brad- but you know, OEM have shot themselves in the foot time and time again. I have a whole box (probably 20 or so) of MS-440 cylinders that have good bores but are completely junk in my opinion because the plating stops 1/4" to 3/8" from the top of the bore. Could some guy slap those on with a stock piston and base gasket and make a runner? possibly. But I wouldn't risk it in the case of using those cylinders on a customer's saw or passing those jugs off to some guy. These are Stihl-made jugs but Mahle has done similar or worse in the past. 

The key component of the open market is competition. Manufacturers are going to get away with as much as possible in terms of profit margins. Mahle's cylinders don't really cost them much more to produce than a lot of these aftermarket companies but their quality control is so high (usually) that they can get away with much higher prices. 

The best thing to do in my experience is to educate consumers. An educated customer is usually a much better customer.


----------



## DSS (Feb 2, 2013)

Don't go all smarty pants on us Jacob.


----------



## Jacob J. (Feb 2, 2013)

DSS said:


> Don't go all smarty pants on us Jacob.



Sowwy...


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2013)

[video=youtube;G5f_gbzo4Q0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5f_gbzo4Q0[/video]


----------



## wyk (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> As an aside, a few people here have been hanging their hats on OEM based on the argument that the want something they can simply bolt on.
> 
> I don't care who makes it...a piston and cylinder, in my view, are NEVER bolt-and-go parts.



Well, that rules out 100% of chainsaws as delivered from the manufacturers...


----------



## Modifiedmark (Feb 2, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> There are still issues with squish bands, port shapes, etc.



Joe blow dont care about none of that stuff, long as it bolts on, runs, cuts wood and last at least a resonable amount of time is all that matters to most. If they make 10% less power, they will not notice anyway. 

Like you said earlier, they should be able to bolt and go with no issues and shouldnt blow up right away. 

Bobs question earlier was a direct question on the life span of these AM kits when used without modifcations, or at least thats how I took it. 

His replies were about kits that were still working with OEM pistons, rings, clips etc. The only one who said anything about a kit with all the original kit parts was one by JJ and he reported that it didnt work very long. 

All the rest of this stuff is BS and until a kit proves that it will work decent and last for sometime with only the original kits componets used they will be avoided by me. Trick is finding the decent ones.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> I still don't see where you were being constructive with this thread.
> 
> I'm not trying to stir the #### but the way you flip around makes it tough to follow along.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/216455.htm



Randy, you're right. That thread was out of frustration, not one of my better moments. My comments about constructive criticism was in reference to the one or two guys that won't hardly let an opinion be stated without trying to cause trouble.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Randy, you're right. That thread was out of frustration, not one of my better moments. My comments about constructive criticism was in reference to the one or two guys that won't hardly let an opinion be stated without trying to cause trouble.



And with that I will let it go.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I agree with some of your points Brad- but you know, OEM have shot themselves in the foot time and time again. I have a whole box (probably 20 or so) of MS-440 cylinders that have good bores but are completely junk in my opinion because the plating stops 1/4" to 3/8" from the top of the bore. Could some guy slap those on with a stock piston and base gasket and make a runner? possibly. But I wouldn't risk it in the case of using those cylinders on a customer's saw or passing those jugs off to some guy. These are Stihl-made jugs but Mahle has done similar or worse in the past.
> 
> The key component of the open market is competition. Manufacturers are going to get away with as much as possible in terms of profit margins. Mahle's cylinders don't really cost them much more to produce than a lot of these aftermarket companies but their quality control is so high (usually) that they can get away with much higher prices.
> 
> The best thing to do in my experience is to educate consumers. An educated customer is usually a much better customer.



Jacob, you've been at this WAY longer than I have and have WAY more experience than I do. In my limited experience, I have never seen an OEM cylinder that couldn't be bolted on and run without failure. On the other hand, I have seen a few Stihl branded cylinders that left much to be desired in the casting and port finishing. I voiced my disappointment with those as well. We simply expect more than that from a top tier manufacture like Stihl. The difference, is that problems have been the exception for OEM, and have been a constant problem for AM. Thankfully, we have a few guys here that are trying to push back and get that quality up.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Feb 2, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> And with that I will let it go.




.......and someone else should follow your example!!!:msp_angry:


----------



## ZeroJunk (Feb 2, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Joe blow dont care about none of that stuff, long as it bolts on, runs, cuts wood and last at least a resonable amount of time is all that matters to most. If they make 10% less power, they will not notice anyway.
> 
> Like you said earlier, they should be able to bolt and go with no issues and shouldnt blow up right away.
> 
> ...



I have several that have been running for 5 years or better. Unfortunately, I have no idea what particular brand they were. They are all fire wood cutters so who knows how many hours.
I'm thinking you guys are just a little impractical.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2013)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> .......and someone else should follow your example!!!:msp_angry:



No one's stopping you.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Feb 2, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> I have several that have been running for 5 years or better. Unfortunately, I have no idea what particular brand they were. They are all fire wood cutters so who knows how many hours.
> I'm thinking you guys are just a little impractical.



Think what you want to. 

Your experiance with them is one thing, someone else's is there's. 

I really don't think I'm being impracitical at all when I think they should not blow up in less then 2 tanks of fuel run through them.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Feb 2, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Think what you want to.
> 
> Your experiance with them is one thing, someone else's is there's.
> 
> I really don't think I'm being impracitical at all when I think they should not blow up in less then 2 tanks of fuel run through them.



What I am saying is that that is an anomaly and should not be used as an indictment on every after market kit and everybody who uses them.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Feb 2, 2013)

ZeroJunk said:


> What I am saying is that that is an anomaly and should not be used as an indictment on every after market kit and everybody who uses them.



I don't know where you got that impression where I said they were all junk. I never came out and said that point blank as far as I can remember.

I actually have a early Baileys 262xp kit on one of my saws and in fact I just came in from running it a bit ago. 

I ran it quite a bit stock and never had a problem with it either. About a year ago when Super3 was over we tore it down so he could do a little porting on it and Mike went as far as praising the cyl that was on it. 

My point is that there is no excuse for some of the junk thats out there now being sold. If some guys like to mod them and make em useable then fine, they should be sold with a disclaimer as being semi finished and need work to make em survive.


----------



## edisto (Feb 2, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> I disagree. At near $300 for a Stihl OEM 441 P/C it damn well should be a bolt and go. So far the one and only that I have done is.



I wouldn't put one on without checking squish, ring gap, and I always do a little clean up.

I certainly would expect to have to do less for $300, but I'd also be damn sure to be thorough!

Trust and verify!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Feb 2, 2013)

edisto said:


> I wouldn't put one on without checking squish, ring gap, and I always do a little clean up.
> 
> I certainly would expect to have to do less for $300, but I'd also be damn sure to be thorough!
> 
> Trust and verify!


K
It's a good practice to check things like that, but I don't expect to do anything to them at all, and you shouldn't have to either. OEM or aftermarket. If you find something wrong return it before its installed.


Something to remember is that with most outfits as soon as you touch/modify it, you now own it and any hope of warranty is out the window if something goes wrong with it.


----------



## lps8 (Feb 2, 2013)

*what happened*



Dennis Cahoon said:


> .......and someone else should follow your example!!!:msp_angry:



I, too wonder what you did with the coon we know. But I like the change.

lps

sorry I left out the ah as in ahahahah


----------



## jernash (Feb 3, 2013)

View attachment 277125


Standard Australian PPE


----------



## MCW (Feb 4, 2013)

jernash said:


> View attachment 277125
> 
> 
> Standard Australian PPE



Thats a bit harsh 

True though...


----------



## Michaelzz28 (Apr 7, 2013)

*I bought one of these kits from HLSupply*

it was a MS361big bore kit! first off it would not fit right the piston skirt would not work in its present configuration followed the lead from here on the forum and adjusted the piston to fit the crankcase and then the bottom of the boss would not clear the crankshaft so I smoothed it out a little as well put it together and it seemed to run fine well at least one tank of fuel then the thing quit running upon disassembly found the piston retaining pin that holds the rings in a fixed position backed out and gouge the cylinder and smeared the piston up! so do you warranty these types of issues

it is only 1 week old!



watsonr said:


> You can not go wrong with a kit like this... except they really aren't available... UNTIL NOW! And I'll give you a 90 day warranty against failure. I have them now and only in certain common sizes like 044/440, 460, 066, 372.


----------



## MCW (Apr 7, 2013)

Michaelzz28 said:


> it was a MS361big bore kit! first off it would not fit right the piston skirt would not work in its present configuration followed the lead from here on the forum and adjusted the piston to fit the crankcase and then the bottom of the boss would not clear the crankshaft so I smoothed it out a little as well put it together and it seemed to run fine well at least one tank of fuel then the thing quit running upon disassembly found the piston retaining pin that holds the rings in a fixed position backed out and gouge the cylinder and smeared the piston up! so do you warranty these types of issues
> 
> it is only 1 week old!



Randy will only give you a warranty if you use some full stops in your posts


----------



## thomas1 (Apr 7, 2013)

MCW said:


> Randy will only give you a warranty if you use some full stops in your posts



Is he asking Randy to warranty a kit he bought from hlsupply?


----------



## DSS (Apr 7, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Is he asking Randy to warranty a kit he bought from hlsupply?




Either that or he invented a new kind of pie.


----------



## thomas1 (Apr 7, 2013)

DSS said:


> Either that or he invented a new kind of pie.



Cryberry? Or perhaps lackofpunctuation ala mode?


----------



## Cantdog (Apr 7, 2013)

Whatdayaspect?? He's A Merican...the capitol's in Washington and HE don't need no stinkin' periods.......

I meen he bought a $50 P&C for a $4-500.00 saw...why not expect the best.......sheesh....


Just sayin..... and stuff...


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 7, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Is he asking Randy to warranty a kit he bought from hlsupply?



He specifically asked if Randy warranties those types of issues, not someone else's kit.

FWIW, I also bought a 361BB kit from the same source and returned it due to horrible quality...worst AM quality I've ever seen. (There may even be pics of it somewhere in this thread.) Sounds like they may have turned around and sold it again!


----------



## DSS (Apr 7, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> Cryberry? Or perhaps lackofpunctuation ala mode?




Pics of the "la mode".


----------



## thomas1 (Apr 7, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> He specifically asked if Randy warranties those types of issues, not someone else's kit.
> 
> FWIW, I also bought a 361BB kit from the same source and returned it due to horrible quality...worst AM quality I've ever seen. (There may even be pics of it somewhere in this thread.) Sounds like they may have turned around and sold it again!



In the title to his post he specifically says he bought the kit from hlsupply. Then he goes on to ask about warranty on a kit that didn't fit right from the start and he then modified in an effort to make it work.

Seems that his first course of action should have been getting in touch with hlsupply, rather than joining here to ask if he could get a vendor to warranty something he didn't sell in the first place?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 7, 2013)

thomas1 said:


> In the title to his post he specifically says he bought the kit from hlsupply. Then he goes on to ask about warranty on a kit that didn't fit right from the start and he then modified in an effort to make it work.
> 
> Seems that his first course of action should have been getting in touch with hlsupply, rather than joining here to ask if he could get a vendor to warranty something he didn't sell in the first place?



I read his post. My take was that he was asking if Randy would honor a warranty on the same issues he was having with the HL kit, presumably as consideration toward purchasing a better quality kit from Randy, not asking Randy to provide warranty service on someone else's kit. That would be absurd...with or without punctuation!

That stated, I personally wouldn't honor a warranty on a kit that was admittedly modified when simply returning it for an exchange or refund would have been easier (and more sensible) in the first place. 

But I digress...

As you were.


----------



## Mastermind (Apr 7, 2013)

I just burped some Central VA raccoon.......it is just as tasty today as it was yesterday.

Top that #####es. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 7, 2013)

Well I have one question that I need an answer for about an am 039 am p/c kit. I will be sending back my second kit from nws that has low compression 115 at best with two tanks of fuel through it. I gave them a second chance and not again. I need a cylinder that is nik bore and a decent piston. I was leaning towards one of the hyway's from watsonr. That looks like the only nik kit I can find, Anyone used a 039, any pics of it, it would be awful nice to get a cylinder that gives my at least 150psi to start with. I dont want to tear this thing down again.


----------



## watsonr (Apr 7, 2013)

Michaelzz28 said:


> it was a MS361big bore kit! first off it would not fit right the piston skirt would not work in its present configuration followed the lead from here on the forum and adjusted the piston to fit the crankcase and then the bottom of the boss would not clear the crankshaft so I smoothed it out a little as well put it together and it seemed to run fine well at least one tank of fuel then the thing quit running upon disassembly found the piston retaining pin that holds the rings in a fixed position backed out and gouge the cylinder and smeared the piston up! so do you warranty these types of issues
> 
> it is only 1 week old!



Did you call them? I still ain't figured out why you guys keep buying kits that don't get some kind of warranty or from someone who doesn't stand behind their stuff??

The piston pin came out... sounds like a failure to me. I warranty against failure, piston pin, rings, cylinder plating, cir-clip, piston and cylinder. If you use due care in putting the saw back together and it fails, I replace the kit.

What kind of kit was it? And stay away from BB kits for that saw, buy the Tecomec kit for a 361 in 47mm, great kit!


----------



## watsonr (Apr 7, 2013)

bushwackr said:


> Well I have one question that I need an answer for about an am 039 am p/c kit. I will be sending back my second kit from nws that has low compression 115 at best with two tanks of fuel through it. I gave them a second chance and not again. I need a cylinder that is nik bore and a decent piston. I was leaning towards one of the hyway's from watsonr. That looks like the only nik kit I can find, Anyone used a 039, any pics of it, it would be awful nice to get a cylinder that gives my at least 150psi to start with. I dont want to tear this thing down again.



How does it run?


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 7, 2013)

Well it seems to run ok, im not impressed with power in the cut , it wont hold a steady idle unless I idle it lean. Its had more power with the bad p/c that was on it and it was a 46mm, I figured the 49mm would give me the little extra I was wanting from it. Im really bummed about this so called great idea I had:bang:

oh ya and the carb was retuned, I had to lean both low to idle and high to get it to run freespeed of 13,500, Thats where the 029 ran for as long as ive had it, all the saw has is muffler opened up. I sure thought I would have to richen it on the high for higher displacement.


----------



## Michaelzz28 (Apr 8, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Did you call them? I still ain't figured out why you guys keep buying kits that don't get some kind of warranty or from someone who doesn't stand behind their stuff??
> 
> The piston pin came out... sounds like a failure to me. I warranty against failure, piston pin, rings, cylinder plating, cir-clip, piston and cylinder. If you use due care in putting the saw back together and it fails, I replace the kit.
> 
> What kind of kit was it? And stay away from BB kits for that saw, buy the Tecomec kit for a 361 in 47mm, great kit!



I did call them they Issued me a rma and I am sending it back they said they would give me a refund we will see! that is the reason I asked if you warranty this sort of problem! I placed a order on your website this morning for a Tecomec Stihl MS361 Aftermarket Cylinder Kit 47MM CLass A Kit so I can get this thing running again need it as it is my favorite go to saw hopefully you are correct on the quality of the kits. I still have the oem cylinder and have cleaned it and believe I could reuse it with a new piston I tore this saw down for a cleaning and saw a little scouring on the exhaust side piston skirt so I went a new cylinder because of it but I believe I could just buy a piston and use the oem jug if these kit do not work out! please send me a good one THanks for the response


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

bushwackr said:


> Well it seems to run ok, im not impressed with power in the cut , it wont hold a steady idle unless I idle it lean. Its had more power with the bad p/c that was on it and it was a 46mm, I figured the 49mm would give me the little extra I was wanting from it. Im really bummed about this so called great idea I had:bang:
> 
> oh ya and the carb was retuned, I had to lean both low to idle and high to get it to run freespeed of 13,500, Thats where the 029 ran for as long as ive had it, all the saw has is muffler opened up. I sure thought I would have to richen it on the high for higher displacement.



Have you checked for a leak... impulse line, fuel line and seals? Is 13,500 the recommended RPM for that saw, well for a 390?


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

Michaelzz28 said:


> I did call them they Issued me a rma and I am sending it back they said they would give me a refund we will see! that is the reason I asked if you warranty this sort of problem! I placed a order on your website this morning for a Tecomec Stihl MS361 Aftermarket Cylinder Kit 47MM CLass A Kit so I can get this thing running again need it as it is my favorite go to saw hopefully you are correct on the quality of the kits. I still have the oem cylinder and have cleaned it and believe I could reuse it with a new piston I tore this saw down for a cleaning and saw a little scouring on the exhaust side piston skirt so I went a new cylinder because of it but I believe I could just buy a piston and use the oem jug if these kit do not work out! please send me a good one THanks for the response



The Tecomec line is a good line. You won't have any problems with that cylinder.


----------



## 8433jeff (Apr 8, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Have you checked for a leak... impulse line, fuel line and seals? Is* 13,500 the recommended RPM* for that saw, well for a 390?



Sounds a little high. I'd drop it at least 10-15%.

Only lean it if it doesn't clear out in the wood.


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> Sounds a little high. I'd drop it at least 10-15%.
> 
> Only lean it if it doesn't clear out in the wood.



Was thinking the same thing. 13,500 is pretty high, may be the number, I don't know for sure.


----------



## Typhke (Apr 8, 2013)

watsonr said:


> Have you checked for a leak... impulse line, fuel line and seals? Is 13,500 the recommended RPM for that saw, well for a 390?



Based on the rpm list I've got, 13,000 is recommended for the 039/390.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 8, 2013)

Typhke said:


> Based on the rpm list I've got, 13,000 is recommended for the 039/390.



13,000 is "max permissible" for the 310 and 390 according to the shop manual . 12,500 is spec'd for the 290.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 8, 2013)

Michaelzz28 said:


> I did call them they Issued me a rma and I am sending it back they said they would give me a refund we will see!



I had no problem getting a refund from the vendor, though I didn't install the kit, let alone modify it prior to installing it. I'd be surprised if they issue a refund in your case, but ya never know...

I'm also surprised they are still selling that kit since they told me the one I bought was the last one on the shelf and it was highly unlikely they would be re-stocking due to the poor and inconsistent casting quality.

They were honest and forthright about the matter, but ya get what ya pay for...and that includes the vendors who sell such cut-rate merchandise...which is exactly what this particular kit was in my case.


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> 13,000 is "max permissible" for the 310 and 390 according to the shop manual . 12,500 is spec'd for the 290.



So were all saying the same thing... 13,500 is to lean for that saw and you will have problems, if I'm reading this correctly?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 8, 2013)

watsonr said:


> So were all saying the same thing... 13,500 is to lean for that saw and you will have problems, if I'm reading this correctly?



Stock, yes (imho).


----------



## 8433jeff (Apr 8, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Stock, yes (imho).



I would say until its broken it its too high stock or not.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 8, 2013)

8433jeff said:


> I would say until its broken it its too high stock or not.



I meant "un-modded".


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 8, 2013)

Yep no leaks, new seals, lines new from the first cylinder kit. I would still be running to 029 top if the intake boot didn't tear, that's what torched the other cylinder, it still ran but low compression also. I have been running that saw at that speed forever and never a issue, so I don't think the extra 500 rpm is the issue. I figured that if the muffler is opened up might as well gain a little. I sure though I wasn't pushing it, I always use good fuel and oil. Anyhoo. That should have nothing to do with the new cylinder having low compression. I had 120 never fired oily cylinder, to me that's not acceptable, but already I put it together and needed the saw so I ran a few tanks thru it now its 115 tops, not pleased. I contacted I will say the retailer. They acted like I was the only person to ever contact them about a problem like this, I told them I read on AS that im not the only one, all he said there's lots of bad info, and lies on here about his products. Well I will believe the folks here over one person that send me bad stuff. Im don't mean to sound cocky but, i did not build the engine wrong like the retailer tryed to tell me.

Forgot to mention the first 2 tanks of fuel thru it was 45:1, at a 12k top, I didn't run it that high the whole time, after the second tank I sure did


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 8, 2013)

Btw pulled the muffler off the saw look thru the port the piston still looks like it just come out of the box. Not a mark or a scratch


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

Some of the aftermarket kits do have lower compression and have for a while now. I think there just not that tight and for the most part, still allow a saw to run pretty good considering the saving you may have enjoyed. By replacing the cylinder and gaining that 30psi, how much performance are you expecting? A cut that's 1 second faster. being able to lift the rear handle till the rubber mounts scream?

Not trying to be an a smarty pants, well really, i am. I want to know what you expect so that I can get the same info to a manufacturer when he asks why? I've had kits that only made 120psi, saw started and ran well. Put the tester on it, 120psi and because of some of the hype around here of 180psi saws and such, felt like I got ripped off. 

A little more research and some understanding of how it works, I've come to believe that it is a number sometimes used to consider engine help but is not the end all of engine health. Its a combination of the tune, the condition of the rings and piston, cylinder size, combustion chamber size and form, Squish, and ...... you get the idea.

You may find that most of the aftermarket kits do play it a little conservative for compression. I think its because they sell to a large market in different countries and whats important to us may not be to the the users of the world in general. Most may not care what the compression is as long as it runs and cuts, most are satisfied.. he may have not had anybody call back on lower compression, that answer has really a high probability of being true.


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 8, 2013)

I understand that this saw isn't a race saw or nothing and was never intended to be anything but a throw away saw by what I get from everyones general bashing of them. Its just my opinion of them but I like running this thing as a matter of fact, my 036 and 026 have rested in the shop since I got this one. My way of thinking is if I start with a jug that has just as low of pressure as the bad one, how long will it be until im doing it again. Will. I get years out of it if I use bad parts. I was going to buy one of your hyway kits for it, but if im not going to get any better out of it than what it is now then what's the point. I might as well patch it up and unload it. That's why I was asking if anyone has used them and what are they getting. Since I can't find a good oem jug im kinda stuck


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 8, 2013)

I understand that its just a number but it should get more life,and performance out of it with it higher, and its kinda hard to sell a saw when that's what most people look for when they buy a used saw, the overall condition and what ever the tester says.

But either way this kit is going back and I will prob be picking up one of hyway kit as soon as I get refinded for this one. If it ends up starting low at least the nikasil will hold up longer


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

I honestly stopped looking at the number awhile ago. If it runs well, it runs well. Most of my saws are older saws and they are getting 110-145ish, guess I'm just used to a lower number.

Anybody out there with a Hyway kit in 390 size have a compression number we can see?

Nothing wrong with that saw, Pro saw or otherwise. Its a saw made to cut wood and warm families just like the other more expensive ones. I own cheaper saws for the same reason a'lot of folks do... because that's what i can afford, it's still made to cut wood!


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 8, 2013)

Maybe I will just have to deal with the fact that I prob wont get one that will that will be like an oe, cause I sure wont go spend more for a cylinder that a saw is worth. I agree I have put many cords up with this saw and Its like a pair of old comfy boots, just can't bring myself to get a new pair, I am just looking to get it back to where it was before and just maybe a touch better. If not well then at least the nik should last longer than a chromey cylinder


----------



## bushwackr (Apr 8, 2013)

Now im kinda stuck, is it even worth tearing it down again or run it like it is. What do ya think?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Apr 8, 2013)

bushwackr said:


> Now im kinda stuck, is it even worth tearing it down again or run it like it is. What do ya think?



Since you asked...

Try a different tach and compression gauge as a comparison before getting too much more frustrated or bent outta shape about a basically ultra-economical solution to what may or may not actually even be presenting a problem..., or the cause of it. And with all due respect, running a stock 029 at 13,500 for all that time with no issues probably means it wasn't running at 13,500 in the first place, so...., just sayin'.

But there's always OEM... if ya wanna make it _right_ ...(ahem).

Whatever way you end up going with it, good luck.


----------



## DSS (Apr 8, 2013)

Some saws, a 3400/3700 poulan off the top of my head, only run 130 psi stock and are very strong saws. 

Just something to think about.


----------



## Michaelzz28 (Apr 8, 2013)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> I had no problem getting a refund from the vendor, though I didn't install the kit, let alone modify it prior to installing it. I'd be surprised if they issue a refund in your case, but ya never know...
> 
> I'm also surprised they are still selling that kit since they told me the one I bought was the last one on the shelf and it was highly unlikely they would be re-stocking due to the poor and inconsistent casting quality.
> 
> They were honest and forthright about the matter, but ya get what ya pay for...and that includes the vendors who sell such cut-rate merchandise...which is exactly what this particular kit was in my case.




Stihl MS361 big bore cylinder piston assembly 49mm 
Our Price: $109.99 
Stihl MS361 big bore cylinder piston assembly 49mm 
Includes: cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin, cir clips
Replaces OEM part 1135 020 1202
High quality nikasil plated
For Stihl MS361 chainsaw
49mm bore 

Did not seem to cheap to me but then again on fleabay I could have got one for less if I wanted to wait for ever with china post If the Tecomec kit is better it is worth the extra cost.


----------



## watsonr (Apr 8, 2013)

Michaelzz28 said:


> Stihl MS361 big bore cylinder piston assembly 49mm
> Our Price: $109.99
> Stihl MS361 big bore cylinder piston assembly 49mm
> Includes: cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin, cir clips
> ...



Only you can decide if its worth the extra cost. Compared to OEM, its a savings either way... save some or save a bunch. I've found that most of the Chinese kits aren't that bad, some not so nice and you may need to wade thru one or two until you get a good one. Pistons are OK, rings are junk and so are the clips in most

OR

A Tecomec with great piston and rings and a warranty... worth it?


----------



## James Sawyer (Feb 6, 2019)

watsonr said:


> Been lots of talk lately of aftermarket parts, specifically cylinders and pistons and honestly some pretty bad pictures of junk! We all see posts of failed stuff and hear some of great experiences. Since joining this site years ago, like most you for some advise, I realized that the market didn't hold much promise of good quality aftermarket stuff until here lately. I was presented an opportunity to become a sponsor and sell some chainsaw parts. Like you, tired of being raked over the coals for parts cost and I started really digging.
> 
> You all can recall the recent exchanges between members here about the Meteor cylinder kit that I sent to Brad Snelling for a test run.... and after heated discussion and a little persuasion, the test revealed that they are much improved! Not perfect but very much improved in the last several years. Plug and play for most, always modified by a builder!
> 
> ...


----------



## James Sawyer (Feb 6, 2019)

watsonr said:


> Been lots of talk lately of aftermarket parts, specifically cylinders and pistons and honestly some pretty bad pictures of junk! We all see posts of failed stuff and hear some of great experiences. Since joining this site years ago, like most you for some advise, I realized that the market didn't hold much promise of good quality aftermarket stuff until here lately. I was presented an opportunity to become a sponsor and sell some chainsaw parts. Like you, tired of being raked over the coals for parts cost and I started really digging.
> 
> You all can recall the recent exchanges between members here about the Meteor cylinder kit that I sent to Brad Snelling for a test run.... and after heated discussion and a little persuasion, the test revealed that they are much improved! Not perfect but very much improved in the last several years. Plug and play for most, always modified by a builder!
> 
> ...



I new to this site and I'm in the process of working on a cylinder swap on 034 and I got after market cylinder. Its doesn't look like your post pictures...wish it did. Its a coated cylinder which I've cleaned up looks a lot better now. Sounds like I bought the wrong one from reading your post but what is your experience with these cylinder how long will they ran. What are the risk I'll break/ ruin the lower end if this blows up. This is older post so...OEM cylinder from my local shop is $320 and he's say the oem is a chrome line cylinder and the coated cylinder won't run 10mins. What 48mm cylinder do you recommend for 034 and do you still warranty your cylinders?


----------



## muddstopper (Feb 7, 2019)

Watsonr hasnt been around since 2016 so I doubt he will answer your question. I have dabbled with a few AM kits and found they vary from OEM specs a lot. Mostly in cyl height from base to top of squish bands, equaling low compression. Also have found transfer location to be off as much as the squish height. this makes the timing off. I suspect that the people making these kits are not milling the bases to the same specs as OEM. I have also compared pistons to oem and found some slight differences in pin location. 2 0r 3 thousands here and there equates to a rebuilt saw with less than optimal performance. They run, but can really benefit from a little more machine work.


----------



## Swogg (Aug 23, 2019)

Old thread, new post. I'm dabbling in some of the AM P+C assemblies just to get an idea of the quality. Since Husqvarna substantially dropped the price of their assemblies, I mostly look at AM for Stihl. No more than they cost, really no big deal even if they end up in the hopper. Meteor for the most part is still good IMO. I got an NWP 49mm assembly for MS 361 with Caber rings from Wolf Creek Saw Shop for around $110-$120 seems like. This P+C assembly seems pretty good to me. Plating is good and has a good hone cross hatch that rival some OEM top ends I've used. There are only two drawbacks I've found, and they aren't significant to me. Of the three sets I've had, piston skirt/wall clearance is not real consistent, but not bad. From memory I think .0023, .0025.0028. The other thing is the piston skirt sides are just a bit jagged. Too minor to correct with a rotary tool. I used a small, fine flat file and they cleaned up nicely.
Squish bands are off a bit. Seems they all were about .010-.012" deep from side wall. I've had numerous OEM bands in this range. I was able to assemble each one with a full delete. .020-.021-.021. Compression after assembly lube burn off ranged from 210psi to a bit less than 220 psi.
One saw I ran about 15 fuel loads. Fat for the first 5-6 loads, then set max no load at 14,200. Four stroked easily. The saw starts and restarts easily. Idles good. Has good throttle response. Compared to my stock 361 with .021" squish and both saws with ported mufflers, they seemed about equal. Thought the NWP may have a touch more Torque. After 15 fuel loads I pulled the cylinder to look for abnormalities. Everything looks good. Rings appear to have even wear, and I would guess they are pretty well run in. I did notice in the cylinder around all the ports, a very slight shiney area. Would lead me to think they are a bit high, but all the ports were chamfered well and uniformally. Doesn't show negetivley in the 210 psi compression reading or on the ring surface. Ring land clearance was about .0022. 
I'm making this entry only because this top end seems to be pretty good. All the ports were clean and needed no attention. So I have good start and restart. Good idle. Good acceleration. Power seems to be there. I'm a firewood cutter, so if I can get 30-40 hours on the saw this year, I'll know a bit more about longevity. I'm a hobbyist. Not a pro like many on this website. I'm looking for bolt on parts that don't require machine work to assemble or to perform reasonably well. So far, this seems like a very good P+C assembly. For someone that wants an alternative to OEM with good performance characteristics, I recommend this set up. Just my humble oppinion.


----------



## cuttinupferalivin (Apr 9, 2022)

watsonr said:


> Been lots of talk lately of aftermarket parts, specifically cylinders and pistons and honestly some pretty bad pictures of junk! We all see posts of failed stuff and hear some of great experiences. Since joining this site years ago, like most you for some advise, I realized that the market didn't hold much promise of good quality aftermarket stuff until here lately. I was presented an opportunity to become a sponsor and sell some chainsaw parts. Like you, tired of being raked over the coals for parts cost and I started really digging.
> 
> You all can recall the recent exchanges between members here about the Meteor cylinder kit that I sent to Brad Snelling for a test run.... and after heated discussion and a little persuasion, the test revealed that they are much improved! Not perfect but very much improved in the last several years. Plug and play for most, always modified by a builder!
> 
> ...


Hyway cylinders are not good. The plating looks nice but it is the adhesion part which is weak in their cylinder. The plating came off the combustion chamber of one destroyed engine/372
Its a crap shoot and trial and error pulse time/money finding good am parts


----------



## ZeroJunk (Apr 9, 2022)

Seems I was subscribed to this old thread so I will make a comment. It is very rare that you can't save the cylinder. Usually because something actually breaks. Otherwise, cleaning up the cylinder and putting an OEM or Meteor piston in works fine.
I did buy a Meteor top end a few weeks ago, can't remember for which particular saw. But, it was very nice. Well finished and good power.
Other than that, it really has to be a junker for me to use any other aftermarket top end.


----------

