# do you all top trees



## hunthawkdog (Feb 9, 2012)

In my area topping trees homeowners refer to as cutting it back untill it looks like a butt naked butcherd log and is supposed to come back full and beautiful. I end up removing them people say i just had it topped lat year and allof a sudden it died.sometimes they make it a few years but continually lose lots of sticks and this time of year look wretched. I tell them I dont top but Ill trim it or correct it or if its close to a house Ill tell em plant a new tree get it started and well take this one down . alot of the older tree cutters around here do reularly and people think it just has to be done . I dont do it becuse it seems obtrusive and after i tell people I dont like it they tell me to do what ever I thnk and I usually get the job anyway . way off base or not what do you guys think


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## newsawtooth (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds like you have your answer.


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## djb6582 (Feb 9, 2012)

From what youve described it sounds like pruning. Toping a tree is just that taking the top out of a trees Ive done this a time or two and looks hidious I try to turn stuff like that down because my rep is riding on my work. But its not that common here but from your description it almost sounds like the seasonal pruning of a crape merytal which looks like a log with a few leads left. if so youtube has some good videos


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## fearofpavement (Feb 9, 2012)

The OP doesn't give enough info to elicit and answer. What kind of tree are you talking? Top a pine tree and it ain't coming back. You can cut a sweet gum off at the stump and it'll put out 53 sprouts just for spite. So I am not really sure what you are asking about....


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## sawinredneck (Feb 9, 2012)

People around here just love getting Maples topped, they just love the look "Lion tails" give the tree! I got in an argument with a home owner I was helping with another project about this. She wants hers topped out because they look so good that way? I told her that was great but to plan on having them removed a few years later when they are dead! People just can't grasp that you can only remove so much before singing a death warrant on a tree!
OP, sounds like you are on track, keep doing what you are doing and you will have clients, not top then remove jobs!


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## lostcoastland (Feb 10, 2012)

*Grande Banzai*

Basically it amazes me when a tree grows perfectly without pruning. Most cared for ornamental tree's have been cared for over the years and have had all kinds of STUFF done to them including topping cuts or heading cuts which are the IMPROPER way where a cut is made midway between potential reduction brances basically bare Usually this causes the peice to die or watersprout which is the this carpet of sprouts that fills in the tree later. it looks nice later on smaller trees that can fill in but basically turns the tree into a pollarded tree that needs to be maintained in this way. 
The way to reduce a tree correctly is cutting tops down to lower branches about 1/3 the size with a sloping or flush cut for proper heal without decay, ( And without damaging the new branch top). This mainly keep sap flowing in the designated correctly pruned tips. Its all about keeping the sap flowing. The proper way to trim a tree occurs only under ideal conditions and with the puush of production often times there will be peeling(without a undercut), heading cuts ( sprouts), and many other attrocities that i haven't even seen yet!! Lmao. 
Basically ####### trees grow so goddam fast that people get crazy and want to maintain the physical charecterstic of the tree and we all know thats not gonna happen. thats like saying hey kid your gettign too tall lets remove some bone fragments out of your shins. but we dont care and thats what we do. it's a control thing. People treat it like getting a hair cut. Which its totaly not thats more of clearcutting justification , most of these people have no relationship with trees other than there weeds. Just if you live in a small crowded area like LA with alot of houses you plant small trees if you lve in the forest it takes care of itself, besides basically agricultural clearing and logging, utility. alot of people just dont want to remove trees but they dont want them near there stuff and think there messy. they just dont know what to do but "cut it back". as long as the tree doesnt die thats fine there nothing more justifying than seeing those trees die and saying HA! told ya! Even if one tree dies. i think more trees should die so people will look at their pruning practices,.jk.. mostly the homeowners..we arborist know whats up but need the money.. The trouble is they grow back with avengance and it becomes GRANDE BANZAI. hack a tree and a giant ball of growth and it looks good later but it takes along time and your basically undermining the whole naturalness of the tree, it's pathetic. However there is the practice of crown restoration which is the practice of removing weakly attached water sprouts ,ect to get a healthy shapped structual tree that can grow away in natural fashion requiring less pruning year by year but theres no gaurentees and like i said..its amazing trees grow perfect when we try so hard and nature just does it. the secret is layback bud people are crazy. just try to keep your reservation for some creative crown reductions when you get the chance to poss fix some trees but some other hacker could always come along and ruin your and the trees hard work in about two seconds and be totally proud about it.starting the whole process over..Se La Vie!


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## PremiereTreeNet (Feb 10, 2012)

Topping is bad news for trees. It sounds like that's the consensus on this thread, but I couldn't resist putting in my two cents. Topping removes far too many leaves, which are how a tree gets sunlight. The leaves that are left are very close to the tree which means that, more often than not, they cannot get as much sunlight as they need. Topping kills trees and clients who request it should have this gently explained to them. A lot of times it's just that they don't realize how bad it is for the tree. I would simply suggest a pruning or a removal instead. If they still want it topped, let them know that it could result in a dead tree. I can definitely understand not wanting your reputation tarnished though. If that's the case, I think refusing the job isn't out of line.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 10, 2012)

fearofpavement said:


> Top a pine tree and it ain't coming back.



Yes it will. I took down a pine today that has been topped several times in it's lifespan. Topped right out in the very top, and cut back too from the ground up.

When I got to the top I found two large branch collars that had reformed from the previous topping, now they were 10" in diameter and doing really well, about 35 or 40 feet up, new growth 20 to 25 feet growing right out of the nest created from the toppings.


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## capetrees (Feb 10, 2012)

Different trees weather the cuts better than some. Top a white pine and it will die. Top a black pine and it does very well to the point I go back every few years to re-top the new growth. I don't top maples or locsts but i will top an oak. Around here, the oaks are strong enough to come back strong. 

Then again there's pollarding. Whole different thing.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 10, 2012)

capetrees said:


> Different trees weather the cuts better than some. Top a white pine and it will die.



The tree I cut today was a White Pine. I think it may have had a natural fork in the top, that might have made a difference, but I'm not sure if it would. It originally came from a tree farm, and was a ball Christmas tree that got transplanted. 

[/QUOTE]Top a black pine and it does very well to the point I go back every few years to re-top the new growth. I don't top maples or locsts but i will top an oak. Around here, the oaks are strong enough to come back strong. 

Then again there's pollarding. Whole different thing.[/QUOTE]

"pollarding"? I'm not familiar with that term; What does it mean?


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## capetrees (Feb 10, 2012)

Pollarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Nailsbeats (Feb 10, 2012)

It can be done and serve it's purpose if cut back to leaders that continue to feed the stem. It also depends on the age/condition of the tree at hand and the height at which you cut. Lower cutting in an old tree will usually finnish it off, which is what most people seem to want. I don't turn down the job, just try to educate the customer and then make the best of it.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 10, 2012)

capetrees said:


> Pollarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



O.K. 

Yeah, I've seen a lot of that. 

I wouldn't want to do it to a healthy tree, but if one has already been done that way it becomes a necessity to keep up with it.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 11, 2012)

Don't top trees. Period. If there is some reason that a tree needs to be topped, then it should be removed. Oak trees, no matter where they are, don't recover well. No tree recovers "well" from a topping. Some do better than others, but they all suffer and none of them do "well". You can do your best to restore it over time, but most of the time the effort is pointless, tree will never be the same.


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## ClimbMIT (Feb 11, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Don't top trees. Period. If there is some reason that a tree needs to be topped, then it should be removed. Oak trees, no matter where they are, don't recover well. No tree recovers "well" from a topping. Some do better than others, but they all suffer and none of them do "well". You can do your best to restore it over time, but most of the time the effort is pointless, tree will never be the same.



I agree with you. Ask the customer why they want the tree topped? Usually they tell me that it's getting to tall and they don't want to fall and hit their house or other structure. That's when I explain how topping was excepted practice many years ago and is no longer recommended. It makes the tree weaker, top heavy, vulnerable to disease and insects, and is freagin ugly! Don't


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## ClimbMIT (Feb 11, 2012)

I started to say don't get me wrong I have done it before. An accepted practice here is pollarding or topping crepe myrtles as well. Every job I do is left will be remembered by neighbors and family. Word of mouth goes a long way, especially when it's negative.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 11, 2012)

ClimbMIT said:


> I agree with you. Ask the customer why they want the tree topped? Usually they tell me that it's getting to tall and they don't want to fall and hit their house or other structure. That's when I explain how topping was excepted practice many years ago and is no longer recommended. It makes the tree weaker, top heavy, vulnerable to disease and insects, and is freagin ugly! Don't



What if the tree has been topped before? Do you not top it again because it goes against the rules of pruning, or do you make the customer happy, or let your competition have the job?


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## capetrees (Feb 11, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> What if the tree has been topped before? Do you not top it again because it goes against the rules of pruning, or do you make the customer happy, or let your competition have the job?



Seems like most in here would rather stand on their ethics of pruning and go home hungry rather tha just do what the custommer asks. Yes, you're right, the next guy will do it instead. Of course you want to inform the homeowner of what may happen if it's topped but 9 times out of ten they say they don't care. I've topped dozens, maybe hundreds of trees around my area and when people pay huge money for water views and the tree is in the way, top it.


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## ClimbMIT (Feb 11, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> What if the tree has been topped before? Do you not top it again because it goes against the rules of pruning, or do you make the customer happy, or let your competition have the job?



That's a good question. Depends on the type of tree. Oak no! Pine no., Cherry Laurel, Crepe Myrtle, or small tree that is being used as a hedge yes. I recommend that it should be taken down and another tree planted if it looks really bad or will hurt the tree like a Live Oak. If it looks healthy then I will recommend that it should have a crown reduction and restoration. I stand behind what I do I also do Landscaping so if I lose a job or two because I won't do something that could come back in bite me in the #ss then so be it. I rather hold a high standard because I know it always comes back to benefit me.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 12, 2012)

capetrees said:


> Seems like most in here would rather stand on their ethics of pruning and go home hungry rather tha just do what the custommer asks. Yes, you're right, the next guy will do it instead. Of course you want to inform the homeowner of what may happen if it's topped but 9 times out of ten they say they don't care. I've topped dozens, maybe hundreds of trees around my area and when people pay huge money for water views and the tree is in the way, top it.



Your right, I will go hungry before I top a tree. If I am broke, and need to resort to that type of work, then I need to get into something else. Ya don't top trees. I am not going to go into all the details, don't need to, it has already been done, in depth, thousands of times, Google it. I understand that there may be a legit reason, from time to time, but they are far and few between. No matter the sit, there is always another option, It is up to you , as a professional Arborist to inform the client on proper Arboriculture.Most of the time, with the proper education, they will go with what ever you suggest, if they insist, after getting the right info, then that's when I fire my client. I will not do that work. If they want a view, remove the trees and plant grass. Several times I have been on this type of bid, when I tell them no, that rattles them, I tell them they need a hacker and give them suggestions on who to call, ya know the guys who do it all the time, they usually call me back after meeting the bubbas and go with the right way instead.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 12, 2012)

ClimbMIT said:


> That's a good question. Depends on the type of tree. Oak no! Pine no., Cherry Laurel, Crepe Myrtle, or small tree that is being used as a hedge yes. I recommend that it should be taken down and another tree planted if it looks really bad or will hurt the tree like a Live Oak. If it looks healthy then I will recommend that it should have a crown reduction and restoration. I stand behind what I do I also do Landscaping so if I lose a job or two because I won't do something that could come back in bite me in the #ss then so be it. I rather hold a high standard because I know it always comes back to benefit me.


:msp_thumbup:


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## capetrees (Feb 12, 2012)

First and foremost, lets be clear and honest, I'm not an arborist. Never claimed to be in here or out in the community and I make that clear to everyone I work with.

That being said, my comments in here and to clients is based on actual experience on job sites. I have rarely gone back to remove a topped tree. For whatever reason, they seem to survive and the owners are happy with the results, often times calling me back to re-top. 

I guess on this topic, I'll agree to disagree. :deadhorse:


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## Carburetorless (Feb 12, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Your right, I will go hungry before I top a tree. If I am broke, and need to resort to that type of work, then I need to get into something else. Ya don't top trees. I am not going to go into all the details, don't need to, it has already been done, in depth, thousands of times, Google it. I understand that there may be a legit reason, from time to time, but they are far and few between. No matter the sit, there is always another option, It is up to you , as a professional Arborist to inform the client on proper Arboriculture.Most of the time, with the proper education, they will go with what ever you suggest, if they insist, after getting the right info, then that's when I fire my client.



I'll be you get a lot of funny looks from clients. 

If I know there is a better solution, and that's usually a pretty big if, because there are other factors that come into play when dealing with customers. 




> I will not do that work. If they want a view, remove the trees and plant grass. Several times I have been on this type of bid, when I tell them no, that rattles them, I tell them they need a hacker and give them suggestions on who to call, ya know the guys who do it all the time, they usually call me back after meeting the bubbas and go with the right way instead.



I'll tell ya what; You just send all those customers my way, and I'll take care of them for ya. Take some of the heat off of ya; What'ya say?


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## SoiLLclimber (Feb 12, 2012)

Is this what you are referring to by topping trees?


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## beastmaster (Feb 12, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Don't top trees. Period. If there is some reason that a tree needs to be topped, then it should be removed. Oak trees, no matter where they are, don't recover well. No tree recovers "well" from a topping. Some do better than others, but they all suffer and none of them do "well". You can do your best to restore it over time, but most of the time the effort is pointless, tree will never be the same.



Agree a 100%. There is no reason to top a tree in the first place(HV wires maybe). I hate it when I hear, "Its getting to tall", so what? 
How did those poor trees survive for 1000's of years with out being topped? Trees are way more complexe then people give them credit for. They know what they need and generally form a growth pattern to serve that need. Working against the tree's Idea of what it feels it needs is pretty self serving. 
Considering less is better in trimming most trees, topping is just criminal. A topped tree is a ruined tree. I often ask a customer to google," topping trees." then if they can show me where someone says there is a benefit to it, I'll consider it. Hasn't happened yet.
Only though education will people start to understand, some will never care. Teach people whats right and you also eliminate and expose those who are topping for what they are. thous limiting the field. Educate and set your self above


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 12, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Only though education will people start to understand, some will never care. Teach people whats right and you also eliminate and expose those who are topping for what they are. thous limiting the field. Educate and set your self above



Luke, this is the way of the force.


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## hunthawkdog (Feb 12, 2012)

SoiLLclimber said:


> Is this what you are referring to by topping trees?



yup thats what I m talking about ugly aint it if i did that id be worried about a sob phone call you killed my tree lets go to the court


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## Earl68754 (Feb 13, 2012)

From what youve described it sounds like pruning. Toping a tree is just that taking the top out of a trees Ive done this a time or two and looks hidious I try to turn stuff like that down because my rep is riding on my work. But its not that common here but from your description it almost sounds like the seasonal pruning of a crape merytal which looks like a log with a few leads left. if so youtube has some good videos


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## SoiLLclimber (Feb 13, 2012)

Seems in my area, thats what all the trees are starting to look like. I know of a guy in the area, and topping is his speciality. I just don't understand how a HO thinks that would even look good. Let alone being horrible for the tree. But everyone wants it done. I'm not certified (yet) however I don't practice this form of hackery. I try to educate and give them options. It's hard to get your point across when they are already looking for someone else to call.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 13, 2012)

SoiLLclimber said:


> Is this what you are referring to by topping trees?



No I wouldn't go that far. 

If you take those down till there is only 3 or 4 feet of stubs left, then you'll see how the guys around here that call themselves "Real Tree Experts" do it. They leave almost nothing but the stump, every time.

I guess they like feeding the chipper. :msp_confused:


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## Carburetorless (Feb 13, 2012)

SoiLLclimber said:


> Seems in my area, thats what all the trees are starting to look like. I know of a guy in the area, and topping is his speciality. I just don't understand how a HO thinks that would even look good. Let alone being horrible for the tree. But everyone wants it done. I'm not certified (yet) however I don't practice this form of hackery. I try to educate and give them options. It's hard to get your point across when they are already looking for someone else to call.



I know what you mean; However, if there's one thing I've learned it's that being idealistic isn't what makes you money in business.

I didn't go into business to do things halfassed, but all too often I see jack legs screwing up jobs that I offered to do the right way.

Now more than ever, there are more new start ups out there than I've ever seen in my life, maybe 1 in 20 know what they're doing, the rest know how to BS customers and do lousy work.

Maybe it's the economy, I kind of doubt it, because I see the same customers, who hire jack legs, having other work done by reputable contractors. It's just that this type of business is so easy to get into, anyone with a chainsaw can start.

If there were a requirement to be certified, that would weed out a lot of the hackers. I think.


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## SoiLLclimber (Feb 13, 2012)

So are you saying that in order to make money and be successful, I need to scrap my ideals and just perform the job the HO wants?


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## ClimbMIT (Feb 14, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Agree a 100%. There is no reason to top a tree in the first place(HV wires maybe). I hate it when I hear, "Its getting to tall", so what?
> How did those poor trees survive for 1000's of years with out being topped? Trees are way more complexe then people give them credit for. They know what they need and generally form a growth pattern to serve that need. Working against the tree's Idea of what it feels it needs is pretty self serving.
> Considering less is better in trimming most trees, topping is just criminal. A topped tree is a ruined tree. I often ask a customer to google," topping trees." then if they can show me where someone says there is a benefit to it, I'll consider it. Hasn't happened yet.
> Only though education will people start to understand, some will never care. Teach people whats right and you also eliminate and expose those who are topping for what they are. thous limiting the field. Educate and set your self above



Thumbs up!


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## huang0ae469aa (Feb 14, 2012)

I agree with you. Ask the customer why they want the tree topped? Usually they tell me that it's getting to tall and they don't want to fall and hit their house or other structure. That's when I explain how topping was excepted practice many years ago and is no longer recommended. It makes the tree weaker, top heavy, vulnerable to disease and insects, and is freagin ugly! Don't


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## Grace Tree (Feb 14, 2012)

View attachment 223789


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## Carburetorless (Feb 14, 2012)

SoiLLclimber said:


> So are you saying that in order to make money and be successful, I need to scrap my ideals and just perform the job the HO wants?



I'm not about to tell you what you should do, because ultimately you're going to do what you want anyways.

I'm just saying being idealistic about your work is something we all wish we could do, and it's nice work when you can get it that way; However, there's more money to be made by doing what the customer wants done. 

So you have ask yourself; Do I want to do things my way, or do I want to make a #### load of money?


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 14, 2012)

How bout both


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 14, 2012)

Back when I worked on airplanes, sometimes a customer would want something that wasn't correct to be signed off as airworthy because they thought it would be too expensive or time consuming to fix right.
I NEVER did it. Twice, I was told by my boss to sign it or else I didn't work there anymore. Both times I said " Give me 10 minutes to pack my toolbox and I'll be gone". Both times they looked at me with shock on their faces, cause nobody had quit that way before. Also, in both cases, somebody else signed it off.
So yes, I was out of work and they still got what they wanted, but if the crap hit the fan, I didn't have to worry about my backside in the grinder. 
Some people have real principles and others just use their lips to spead BS.
Rick


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## SoiLLclimber (Feb 14, 2012)

Have to agree with beans on this. Like he mentioned in one of his earlier posts, if he has to resort to hackery to put food on the table, then he needs to change professions. I'm not just going to do what the HO wants. That defeats the whole purpose of trying to be a reputable business man. Seems to me if someone is just willing to do whatever for a dime then how much do they really care for their profession. And then how does that reflect on said profession? Now I know I'm young in this profession and still have a lot to learn, however it doesn't matter my climbing skills and how well I yield a chainsaw if I don't care how a tree looks or its health when I'm done and whether or not my client understands what I do/have done. If I don't teach them, I'm just leaving someone else the opportunity to pull one over on them again.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 14, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> How bout both



Like I said 'It's nice work when you can get it'.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 14, 2012)

SoiLLclimber said:


> Have to agree with beans on this. Like he mentioned in one of his earlier posts, if he has to resort to hackery to put food on the table, then he needs to change professions. I'm not just going to do what the HO wants. That defeats the whole purpose of trying to be a reputable business man. Seems to me if someone is just willing to do whatever for a dime then how much do they really care for their profession. And then how does that reflect on said profession? Now I know I'm young in this profession and still have a lot to learn, however it doesn't matter my climbing skills and how well I yield a chainsaw if I don't care how a tree looks or its health when I'm done and whether or not my client understands what I do/have done. If I don't teach them, I'm just leaving someone else the opportunity to pull one over on them again.



I'd love being able to do things the way I think they should be done, and whenever I can I do it that way.

If my digi cam wasn't giving a lens error I'd take pics of what the competition here does. They hack trees worse than anything I've ever seen, but they're doing great. 

Maybe I'm over estimating the competition, maybe if I put myself out there and do good work people will see the light and drop the competition's service for mine. If there are any trees left by then.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 14, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Back when I worked on airplanes, sometimes a customer would want something that wasn't correct to be signed off as airworthy because they thought it would be too expensive or time consuming to fix right.
> I NEVER did it. Twice, I was told by my boss to sign it or else I didn't work there anymore. Both times I said " Give me 10 minutes to pack my toolbox and I'll be gone". Both times they looked at me with shock on their faces, cause nobody had quit that way before. Also, in both cases, somebody else signed it off.
> So yes, I was out of work and they still got what they wanted, but if the crap hit the fan, I didn't have to worry about my backside in the grinder.



Then you moved into your parents basement. 



> Some people have real principles and others just use their lips to spead BS.
> Rick



I'm not *speading* any BS, that's for sure.


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## SoiLLclimber (Feb 14, 2012)

No way, no how will I be doing that. Maybe if ya didn't cut all those limbs off, your rope may have been caught by a branch instead of falling to the ground.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 15, 2012)

Then you moved into your parents basement.

I guess that would be your move, but because I am good at what I do, I had no problems getting good references from people that mattered. It often meant that I had to relocate, but I often ended up in better jobs at better pay because of it, so I guess in the end things worked out OK.
People willing to sell out are the same everywhere..... they always blame their lowering of standards on somebody else. And they are often clueless about how others see them.
Rick


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 15, 2012)

Look, its like this, easy peasy, if you top trees, then you are a hacker. You may be a pro hacker, but if you top trees, your a hacker. No point in arguing the point! Its a done deal. No one person can decide, the industry as a whole decides, and they have decided, that if you top trees, your a hack. Not calling names, that is the true description of some one who tops trees. It does not matter what the reason is (again, on occasion it may be justified) its wrong to do so, not because some of us "don't like it" because it has been studied and proven to be bad, on all fronts. Some guys take pride in their occupation, pride in their knowledge and pride in the fact that they may have taught somebody a thing or two about trees, that will have a impact on all those who know the individual that leaned from the Arborist. Others invade and dilute the pool

The fact that some of you guys are trying to justify it, on this site, *Arborist*Site. It speaks volumes.


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## Grace Tree (Feb 15, 2012)

I think most old people look at trees as they do any other vegetation. The grass grows, you clip it. The hedge grows, you clip it. The tree grows............It's surprising how many different ways the HO will ask for topping after you refuse. Just give it a haircut, just trim it even on the top, just shorten it up and so on. They can get a little angry when you say no but so what? One of the best diffusers is one that I stole from someone here on AS. "I want you to top that tree. Why, are you afraid that it's going to poke a hole in the sky?
Phil


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## ClimbMIT (Feb 15, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> View attachment 223789



I couldn't believe this picture when I saw this. Lol! No disrespect, but that is a shame. That would never fly over here in New Orleans. I love trees and that is why I am doing what I do. I would find a new profession if I had to do that to make money.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Then you moved into your parents basement.
> 
> I guess that would be your move, but because I am good at what I do, I had no problems getting good references from people that mattered. It often meant that I had to relocate, but I often ended up in better jobs at better pay because of it, so I guess in the end things worked out OK.
> People willing to sell out are the same everywhere..... they always blame their lowering of standards on somebody else. And they are often clueless about how others see them.
> Rick



I don't know what happened with your airplane job, and I'm still not sure how it ties into tree care. 

All I'm saying is, it's easy to just walk away from responsibilities when you have somewhere to walk to. I don't have that option, I have to make a go of it win or lose, and losing isn't an option.

You obviously have a safety net, otherwise you wouldn't have walked away from a good job. There are a lot of people that don't have that option. You should count yourself lucky instead of bragging online.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Look, its like this, easy peasy, if you top trees, then you are a hacker. You may be a pro hacker, but if you top trees, your a hacker. No point in arguing the point! Its a done deal. No one person can decide, the industry as a whole decides, and they have decided, that if you top trees, your a hack. Not calling names, that is the true description of some one who tops trees. It does not matter what the reason is (again, on occasion it may be justified) its wrong to do so, not because some of us "don't like it" because it has been studied and proven to be bad, on all fronts. Some guys take pride in their occupation, pride in their knowledge and pride in the fact that they may have taught somebody a thing or two about trees, that will have a impact on all those who know the individual that leaned from the Arborist. Others invade and dilute the pool
> 
> The fact that some of you guys are trying to justify it, on this site, *Arborist*Site. It speaks volumes.



Let me make myself clear once and for all.

I don't top trees that haven't been topped before.

If trees have been topped before, then it becomes necessary to top them again(a.k.a. re-topping). 

If I re-top a tree, I don't hack them down to the stubs like the competition does, I only remove the limbs that are a problem, dead limbs, diseased limbs, limbs that look like they're going break away. 

If that's being a hack, then I'm a hack. If you have a better solution to the problem of trees that have been topped before(other than don't top them to begin with), then please enlighten me. 

Maybe you have some magic dust you can sprinkle on hacked trees to restore them to their original condition. If you don't, then I'm going to maintain them as best I can.


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## Grace Tree (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Let me make myself clear once and for all.
> 
> I don't top trees that haven't been topped before.
> 
> ...



Google tree CROWN RESTORATION and spend some time reading.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> Google tree CROWN RESTORATION and spend some time reading.



I have already; O.K.?

O.K.?!


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

ClimbMIT said:


> I couldn't believe this picture when I saw this. Lol! No disrespect, but that is a shame. That would never fly over here in New Orleans. I love trees and that is why I am doing what I do. I would find a new profession if I had to do that to make money.



Are you telling me he's sporting a billboard that boldly states they top trees, not just any tree, but ANY TREE!

And now he's busting my balls for doing a little clip and snip here and there on trees that have already been topped before(probably by him)!

Unfrickingbelievable! :msp_thumbdn:


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## Grace Tree (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I have already; O.K.?
> 
> O.K.?!



Then why do you make statements like,
If trees have been topped before, then it becomes necessary to top them again(a.k.a. re-topping).

"re topping" isn't restoration.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> Then why do you make statements like,
> If trees have been topped before, then it becomes necessary to top them again(a.k.a. re-topping).
> 
> "re topping" isn't restoration.



Let me make sure I've got this straight; You're topping trees so that you can go back and restore them later?


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## Grace Tree (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Let me make sure I've got this straight; You're topping trees so that you can go back and restore them later?


View attachment 224074

Son, if you think this is me you r-e-a-l-l-y need to get up to speed. Look at the sign and then look at my location and try and make sense out of it and then get back to me.

Phil


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> View attachment 224074
> 
> Son, if you think this is me you r-e-a-l-l-y need to get up to speed. Look at the sign and then look at my location and try and make sense out of it and then get back to me.
> 
> Phil



Lol, Yeah I noticed that before.

Anyway,

I've always been amazed at a trees ability to renew it's self, and as a result I believe that there is a tree friendly way to go about topping or re-topping as it were.

I only take or kull the weakest looking branches, and leave the better ones, the ones that have a more natural and strong appearance to them. 

I don't know if that's the correct method, but it looks better than topping them out like a cotton wood. 

I've done search after search on the subject, but I can find little more than an explanation of what crown restoration is, and no information on the actual procedure; Maybe you could point me in the right direction?


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## Grace Tree (Feb 15, 2012)

Start here
https://www.google.com/search?q=tree+crown+restoration&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a
Don't make me do your work for you


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I've done search after search on the subject, but I can find little more than an explanation of what crown restoration is, and no information on the actual procedure; Maybe you could point me in the right direction?




Are you sure you're interested, because it involves NOT topping the tree for a first, second, or third time?



> I've always been amazed at a trees ability to renew it's self, and as a result I believe that there is a tree friendly way to go about topping or re-topping as it were.


and a ? for you Carbie....

What does all that sapwood (grown or re-grown) do? Does it serve a purpose for the tree?


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Are you sure you're interested, because it involves NOT topping the tree for a first, second, or third time?
> 
> 
> and a ? for you Carbie....
> ...



It provides nutrients, and minerals, and I guess it also protects the tree like a scab. I know it attracts and catches bugs, I'm not sure if that serves any purpose though. 

Some of it can be tasty. When I was a kid we used it to doctor our balls(our baseballs, get your head out of the gutter).


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> Start here
> https://www.google.com/search?q=tree+crown+restoration&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a
> Don't make me do your work for you



That's the same search page I got, it's all commercial sites for tree care services.


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## Grace Tree (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> That's the same search page I got, it's all commercial sites for tree care services.


OK then. I give up. Back you go to the dark side of the moon. 
Enjoy your life,
Phil


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> It provides nutrients, and minerals, and I guess it also protects the tree like a scab. I know it attracts and catches bugs, I'm not sure if that serves any purpose though.
> 
> Some of it can be tasty. When I was a kid we used it to doctor our balls(our baseballs, get your head out of the gutter).



SapWOOD Carbie, sapWOOD, not sap. 

Sapwood, you know, all those young branches and tops that get hacked off over and over when you re-top those potential restorations. 

What does the sapwood do for the tree? Does it serve a purpose for the tree?


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> SapWOOD Carbie, sapWOOD, not sap.
> 
> Sapwood, you know, all those young branches and tops that get hacked off over and over when you re-top those potential restorations.
> 
> What does the sapwood do for the tree? Does it serve a purpose for the tree?



Yes they do, they make a place for leaves to grow so that the tree can absorb sunlight to produce chlorophyll.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Yes they do, they make a place for leaves to grow so that the tree can absorb sunlight to produce chlorophyll.



Ya, not so much....

The trees absorb H2O, CO2 and sunlight to produce O and carbohydrates. In order for the tree to produce chlorophyll (and the many other chemicals it needs and produces), it still needs other elements from the root system, but that's not really the point.



> I've always been amazed at a trees ability to renew it's self, and as a result I believe that there is a tree friendly way to go about topping or re-topping as it were.



There is no "tree friendly" way to cut of (or re-cut off) all the parts of the tree which are helping to store the proceeds of photosynthesis, and forming a well anchored structure of the tree. 

Each time that material is removed from the tree, the tree loses not only the resources stored in that dynamic material, but also the ability to produce more resources until it's spent more stored energy to restore photosynthetic mass. 

It gets weaker each time. 

It decays more each time. 

The regrowth isn't anchored in the heartwood, it's now got many less growth layers to support a rapidly growing branch. 

The root system is shocked with each topping or re-topping, and some parts of the root system die, escalating the downward spiral.

None of those sound very "tree friendly" to me.


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## ClimbMIT (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I have already; O.K.?
> 
> O.K.?!



Google ISA Arborist's Certification Study Guide by Sharon Lily. Get it


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Ya, not so much....
> 
> The trees absorb H2O, CO2 and sunlight to produce O and carbohydrates. In order for the tree to produce chlorophyll (and the many other chemicals it needs and produces), it still needs other elements from the root system, but that's not really the point.
> 
> ...



So you're saying that this "Crown Restoration" stuff is a bunch of malarkey?


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

ClimbMIT said:


> Google ISA Arborist's Certification Study Guide by Sharon Lily. Get it



I'll look into it; Thanks for the tip.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> So you're saying that this "Crown Restoration" stuff is a bunch of malarkey?



No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that your statement


> I believe that there is a tree friendly way to go about topping or re-topping


 is a load of BS.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 15, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that your statement is a load of BS.



So their is no way to restore a tree that's been topped?

Well; Is there?


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## SoiLLclimber (Feb 15, 2012)

I think the take home message is don't top trees or re-top them. Simple as that. And if you so happen to get called to a tree that has been topped, then you can try crown restoration to start restructuring the tree. However, it's a long process if I understand it correctly. Am I correct on my conclusion of the topic at hand?


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Yes they do, they make a place for leaves to grow so that the tree can absorb sunlight to produce chlorophyll.



WRONG again there clueless. You have it bass ackwards. The chlorophyll lets the tree use the sunlight.

Rick


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 16, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> So their is no way to restore a tree that's been topped?
> 
> Well; Is there?



Many times, or sometimes, or hardly ever, or almost never. 

It depends alot on the individual tree, and how badly it's been damaged by trimming, it's age, it's vitality, and tons of other variables. 

But even if a tree can't be restored, that does not mean that ongoing repeated topping is acceptable. Tree replacement is in order at that point, instead of ongoing expense to service a liability.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 16, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> WRONG again there clueless. You have it bass ackwards. The chlorophyll lets the tree use the sunlight.
> 
> Rick



That's odd, I was always taught that plants convert sunlight to chlorophyll.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 16, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Many times, or sometimes, or hardly ever, or almost never.
> 
> It depends alot on the individual tree, and how badly it's been damaged by trimming, it's age, it's vitality, and tons of other variables.
> 
> But even if a tree can't be restored, that does not mean that ongoing repeated topping is acceptable. Tree replacement is in order at that point, instead of ongoing expense to service a liability.



I hear you, but telling a customer that they should replace their beloved tree would be right up there with telling them they need to have a leg amputated.

How do you go about breaking the news to them?

Do you usurp Rick's drop line and tell them they're clueless, or is there a better way of convincing them.


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## hunthawkdog (Mar 14, 2012)

*lost top*

Lost another job today becuse we dont top trees, theres a local ordinance aginst it . I t still happens . some people dont care to be educated and just want there tree topped . When we explain why we dont they look at u like u got a third eye . Its so popular . Im not provin anything just losin money


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## capetrees (Mar 14, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> OK then. I give up. Back you go to the dark side of the moon.
> Enjoy your life,
> Phil



"There is no dark side of the moon. Matter of fact, it's all dark"


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## Greener (Mar 15, 2012)

Nailsbeats said:


> It can be done and serve it's purpose if cut back to leaders that continue to feed the stem. It also depends on the age/condition of the tree at hand and the height at which you cut. Lower cutting in an old tree will usually finnish it off, which is what most people seem to want. I don't turn down the job, just try to educate the customer and then make the best of it.



Nailsbeats. You summed up this whole thread concisely. Very well put. I would only add that different species tend to tolerate more cutting back that others.


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## Grace Tree (Mar 15, 2012)

capetrees said:


> "There is no dark side of the moon. Matter of fact, it's all dark"


I'll take a lot of abuse but not when it comes to "science"
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums. 
I rest my case and I'll see YOU on the dark side of the moon.
Phil


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 15, 2012)

@ Carb
Check it out, so I went back thru your post's, I have a bit of advice for ya. Read, READ,READ Do not take this the wrong way, get butt hurt and say something out of line, resist the urge and listen. It is pretty obvious that you are lacking in Arboricultural (that is spelled right isnt it? spell check is arguing with me, I'm trying Eddie, I'm trying)knowledge. ON ALL COUNTS, no problem we have ALL been there at one point or another. Something you fail to realize. These guys that you argue with know what they are doing, you don't. Not saying that you cant pick it up, actually, thats exactly what you need to do, pick up, what they are laying down. READ. You should not work on trees if you do not understand basic plant biology. BASIC, just as you should not climb trees if you have not been taught............not to climb, but to climb trees. Going to rock climbers, factory's and here will not make you a Arborist, a seasoned vet will. As we tell all the newbs who come here, this is not the place to learn the basics, the field is, under the supervision of a veteran, topper or not, someone who understands the risk in every move they make, they guy who can read the tree the instant he looks at it. These guys are here, but you are not going to pick up the knowledge you need to do this safely, for you and the tree.....here. You have been given advice from epic level tree guys, LISTEN, READ. For about a 200 doll hairs you can get the basic books, esp from Amazon. This will help you more than anything, other than the crusty, cranky old dude that you need. Get the books first, then go find crusty. I am genuinely concerned, as I said before, about your well being. READ


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## capetrees (Mar 16, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> I'll take a lot of abuse but not when it comes to "science"
> Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums.
> Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums.
> Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon----50 million albums---Capetrees---zero albums.
> ...



??


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## pdqdl (Mar 16, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> WRONG again there clueless. You have it bass ackwards. The chlorophyll lets the tree use the sunlight.
> 
> Rick



I know that everybody is having fun with C-less, but I think you are being just a bit harsh with that statement, and equally inaccurate. The tree makes the chlorophyll. The tree tells the chlorophyll what to do, when to do it, and then expects it to go to work. 

Chlorophyll is nothing but a tool, manufactured by plants to capture the sunlight.


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## pdqdl (Mar 16, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> That's odd, I was always taught that plants convert sunlight to chlorophyll.



I think you misunderstood what the teacher was trying to tell you. As stated above, plants use the energy of the sun to grow. They manufacture and use chlorophyll as a chemical tool to capture the sunlight's energy.


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## pdqdl (Mar 16, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> ... For about a 200 doll hairs you can get the basic books...




Do I detect voice recognition software at work? 


BTW: nice post.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 17, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Do I detect voice recognition software at work?
> 
> 
> BTW: nice post.



Thanks! No, its the new word for money with the kids around here, instead of dollars, its doll hairs!
Middle son "Dad, can I have 30 doll hairs to go out" Me, "WTF is a doll hair?" "Its dollars, duh"


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## Carburetorless (Mar 17, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I think you misunderstood what the teacher was trying to tell you. As stated above, plants use the energy of the sun to grow. They manufacture and use chlorophyll as a chemical tool to capture the sunlight's energy.



I think you're being a Keyboard Jokey, cause the teacher said, and I quote "Plants convert sunlight to chlorophyll".

Kinda hard to misunderstand such a direct statement; Isn't it?


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## Tree Pig (Mar 17, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I think you're being a Keyboard Jokey, cause the teacher said, and I quote "Plants convert sunlight to chlorophyll".
> 
> Kinda hard to misunderstand such a direct statement; Isn't it?




Get a new teacher because that is wrong.

Chlorophyll is a color pigment in a plant that is used to absorb light then convert it to energy. The Chlorophyll pigment is a greenish pigment which is were plants get their color.


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## pdqdl (Mar 17, 2012)

On a purely technical evaluation, C-less is correct.

Plants do use sunlight to make _more _chlorophyll. The original energy comes from the seed; after that, it's all done with stored energy from the sun.

The real problem is that I don't believe ol' C-less really has a good understanding of how it all works. The way the original statement was phrased does not exude comprehension.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 17, 2012)

Read and Learn

Photosynthesis


Rick


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## Carburetorless (Mar 17, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Get a new teacher because that is wrong.



Well that was a long time ago, they were probably wrong.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 17, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Read and Learn
> 
> Photosynthesis
> 
> ...



I read up on it way back when this whole chlorophyll thing got started.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 17, 2012)

More info:

Photosynthesis

I stand by my origional statement....sunlight is no more related to the production of chlorophyll than it is to roots and bark.

Rick


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## Carburetorless (Mar 17, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> More info:
> 
> Photosynthesis
> 
> ...



Are you saying that trees will do just fine without sunlight?


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 17, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Are you saying that trees will do just fine without sunlight?



Vampire tree's do.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Mar 17, 2012)

I got ol' C-less's problem figures out: You have a problem with deductive reasoning.

People make statements in this and many other threads, and you consistently misinterpret the meaning of what they have said. Your latest post is an excellent example. I would suggest that you look at each and every statement folks make with one singular perspective. _How can this statement be interpreted to be true?_ When you simply cannot figure any way for the statement to be true, work on whatever elements are incorrect.

There is a whole branch of philosophy dedicated to this concept: it's called Logic. Read up some more, partner: Logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I took an entire course in college on the topic. It was a required pre-requisite course (at least then) for admission to Law School. It's the sort of skill that can be learned and exercised. I suggest you get crackin', 'cause you really aren't reaching the right conclusions.


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## Rftreeman (Mar 18, 2012)

do I top trees, hell yeah if it's pays the bills. If you walked in your barber's shop and asked for a buzz cut and he said "nope, sorry can't do it because it isn't right for your head" you'd go to the next guy and so on until you got what you asked for and that's what your client will do so keep turning down those jobs and I'll keep cashing them checks....


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## fir (Mar 18, 2012)

*topping*

Topping is all they used to do here by the looks of all the old trees but for the most part I hope its a thing of the past. We prune or spiral prune lighten or what ever you want to call it i like the tree to look like you never were there, Sometimes people want you to take more so you do. The more you inform people and the more safe you can make them feel save the less chance they will want you to top or take it out.Its all about the old bities that think there tree is un safe I hate that. You ask how long has the tree been there for through all those winter storms and snow loads its O.K. you are safe.:bang: We only really top now for the million dollar view.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> pdqdl wrote:



What was the middle part again?


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> What was the middle part again?



Read here: http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/193072-3.htm#post3551054

{"page-up" key would be easier}


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 18, 2012)

The most important aspect of a perfectly topped is when the cutter also takes the minute and eyeball the proper side angle cuts , i mean butchered trees look worse with a flat top if your gonna dress a tree in its death outfit at least take the time to make it look at least round ....:msp_sneaky:


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Read here: http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/193072-3.htm#post3551054
> 
> {"page-up" key would be easier}



I need you splain it to me. Mi Inglés no es tan bueno :cool2:


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## capetrees (Mar 18, 2012)

Rftreeman said:


> do I top trees, hell yeah if it's pays the bills. If you walked in your barber's shop and asked for a buzz cut and he said "nope, sorry can't do it because it isn't right for your head" you'd go to the next guy and so on until you got what you asked for and that's what your client will do so keep turning down those jobs and I'll keep cashing them checks....



+1

Saw Bartlett out topping a few the other day. Gotta have the million dollar view!


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I need you splain it to me. Mi Inglés no es tan bueno :cool2:



There are none so blind as those who will not see.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> There are none so blind as those who will not see.



Look man, if you were to practice what you preach and Pg Up all the way back to the top of this post, you'd see that the title is "Do Ya'll Top Tree".

The title isn't "Let's psycho-analyze Carb.". 

Physician heal thy self.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

If you are going to act the fool, you shouldn't be surprised when people treat you that way.

Renaming the title of the thread would be a good idea. I would suggest "Carburetorless takes all comers in a mud wrestling match to the bottom of the ditch".

From my perspective, you beat us all there in every match.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> If you are going to act the fool, you shouldn't be surprised when people treat you that way.
> 
> Renaming the title of the thread would be a good idea. I would suggest "Carburetorless takes all comers in a mud wrestling match to the bottom of the ditch".
> 
> From my perspective, you beat us all there in every match.



You suck.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

See!

You beat me to the bottom of the ditch again.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

Damn! 

C-less, you are just too easy. Anytime anybody hangs out the bait, you take it.

They hold a door open, and you walk into it.

You are not very good at verbal arguments and witty rejoinder. Why don't you try ignoring insults, responding to help with gratitude, and generally being a nice guy instead of doing your best troll imitation?


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Damn!
> 
> C-less, you are just too easy. Anytime anybody hangs out the bait, you take it.
> 
> ...



Same on you!

It's take two to tango bro. 

You don't know when to lay it down and walk away bro, you can't accept the fact that you will never win this little game you're trying to play. 

That's why you suck bro.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

You seem to think that having the last word means that you win. Fine. Post one more response to me, and you will certainly have the last word. _It's all yours._

If you read my posts, you will see that I have not called you any bad names, I have not insulted you, nor have I given you bad advice. 

I have certainly made comments to you and about you that have lead the reader to a less than complimentary conclusion about you, but I hope that you remember that you started it. Yes! it is true, I have even ridiculed you. I'm sorry, that was poor behavior on my part, and I promise to stop.

Really! Every time you respond to someone with your angry, disturbed rhetoric, you reveal yourself to be ill equipped to battle wits. 

This is my last comment of this nature to you. I warned you at the beginning that I expected you to be more clever and more entertaining. Playing word games with you simply isn't challenging enough for me, and I genuinely feel like I am picking unfairly on you. 

I will not respond to you in the future, unless it is on a tree related topic.


----------

