# Barber chair



## hanniedog (Jan 8, 2017)

How heavy of a ratchet strap do i nee to help prevent an ash from splitting. it is about 18 inches or so with a moderate lean to it.


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## svk (Jan 8, 2017)

I'd do a 2" strap or use a chain


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## chucker (Jan 8, 2017)

bigger the better . the trick is to get as many wraps around the trunk to help hold it tightly bound!! say a 20'er of 2" to 3" of 10,000/20,000# strength will do.


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## zogger (Jan 8, 2017)

Well, bigger is better, but for reals, once you have two or more wraps around it with anything stout, it gets really strong. Several wraps even with just a cheap tow strap is really stout. First time I ever ran a capstan winch I found this out.


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## hanniedog (Jan 8, 2017)

Thanks guys.


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## bitzer (Jan 8, 2017)

How about learn how to cut it up right!


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## hanniedog (Jan 8, 2017)

Well what is the right way Mr Expert.


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## chucker (Jan 8, 2017)

bitzer said:


> How about learn how to cut it up right!


and we all know you never have a chair to set in and wonder "what just happened" after all your experience that never fails you! ?? lol? once you learn the correct procedure they will never occur again under any conditions! ?? lol false thinking will kill the best of us!


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## Jakers (Jan 8, 2017)

without seeing pictures and assuming its solid and good wood, i would recommend a plunge cut.

If instructions are needed, please by all means, ask on here or google or youtube. if you are unsure of how to do it then walk away until you learn the technique properly


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## Jakers (Jan 8, 2017)

i am very serious about this. A 4" tree can take your head clean off. imagine what an 18" tree could do


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## ncpete (Jan 8, 2017)

This reminds me, that I need to start investigating taking down a few trees with bad leans and bifurcated trunks in my yard. Not happy about the barber chairing potential of either.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 9, 2017)

I used to use just a log chain but that can't get tight, still stops a chair from proceding though. Then I went to the tie-down straps - one broke. Now it is logchain and chain binder. 

Plunge cutting does work but I still chain them. Currently working a grove where every tree has a very wicked lean.


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## JCMC (Jan 9, 2017)

I used a chain and chain binder on a box elder that had a heavy lean. It worked very well.


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## ncpete (Jan 9, 2017)

Somewhere in my storage I have a heavy lift sling ratcheting strap, of the sort used when sling loading under military helicopters. Think 20,000 lb rating would be enough?


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## hseII (Jan 9, 2017)

The 2-3" Quality Trucking Ratchet straps are ideal for this in my opinion, As mentioned above.


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## hseII (Jan 9, 2017)

chucker said:


> bigger the better . the trick is to get as many wraps around the trunk to help hold it tightly bound!! say a 20'er of 2" to 3" of 10,000/20,000# strength will do.



This.


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## ncpete (Jan 9, 2017)

hseII said:


> This.


hah, I didn't see the weight listed on that post first time through.


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## 009L (Jan 9, 2017)

Learn something new everyday....I've never seen someone use a strap/chain to help prevent barber chair before. How far above the cut are you placing the chain?

Thanks,

-Pat


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## JCMC (Jan 9, 2017)

I placed the chain with a binder about a foot above where I was going to place my notch. This method was shown to me by an old logger that I worked with many years ago. You can't beat experience!


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## 009L (Jan 9, 2017)

JCMC said:


> I placed the chain with a binder about a foot above where I was going to place my notch.



Thanks JCMC!


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## lefturnfreek (Jan 9, 2017)

Leaner's aren't that bad if they aren't hung in another you just drop the tree in the same direction it's leaning. Do the face cut on the low side, 1 90deg cut in and 1 45deg down from the 90, do the back cut 90deg to the face and cut evenly on both sides leaving a few inch's to pivot on once it pops and starts falling ..... GTG

Use a sharp chain and be committed once you start !!! Hesitated cuts will barber or go it an unexpected direction. Have a clean and know escape path know to you before you even think about touching chain to tree that is away from the tree, not with it.

Hung leaner's .... they are fun .....


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 9, 2017)

I like the advise of just cut it right so it dont chair.


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## treebilly (Jan 9, 2017)

Even us that do this daily occasionally bind a tree. There are other ways but they still pucker your ass at times.


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## msvold (Jan 10, 2017)

Buckin Billy Ray has a good vid on using plunge or bore cut on leaners.


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## Ryan'smilling (Jan 10, 2017)

I use the bore cutting method for forward leaning trees. Actually I use it for darned near every tree. I've never used a strap or chain, but I could see doing so for that extra safety measure. 

One cool thing about the bore cutting method is that when you go to cut the "trigger" you can cut several or even many inches below your bored cut. As long as you cut all of the fibers that make up the trigger, the tree will fall, but the action of the fibers pulling apart act as brakes and slow the fall. Pretty slick on my opinion.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 10, 2017)

There have been about 4 times I chained trees just as added insurance against butt shatter when falling leaners, but as said if your cuts are placed correctly it's not necessary on any but the most expensive trees.


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## hseII (Jan 10, 2017)

009L said:


> Learn something new everyday....I've never seen someone use a strap/chain to help prevent barber chair before. How far above the cut are you placing the chain?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Pat



Just out of my way above my face cut.


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## hseII (Jan 10, 2017)

lefturnfreek said:


> Leaner's aren't that bad if they aren't hung in another you just drop the tree in the same direction it's leaning. Do the face cut on the low side, 1 90deg cut in and 1 45deg down from the 90, do the back cut 90deg to the face and cut evenly on both sides leaving a few inch's to pivot on once it pops and starts falling ..... GTG
> 
> Use a sharp chain and be committed once you start !!! Hesitated cuts will barber or go it an unexpected direction. Have a clean and know escape path know to you before you even think about touching chain to tree that is away from the tree, not with it.
> 
> Hung leaner's .... they are fun .....



If it's a leaner, it's getting bore cut, & a trigger: Even on Oak.


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## JCMC (Jan 10, 2017)

hseII said:


> If it's a leaner, it's getting bore cut, & a trigger: Even on Oak.


especially on oak


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## svk (Jan 10, 2017)

Looks like Billy leaves about a quarter of the thickness of the tree for the trigger, is that about what you other guys do?

I don't cut many leaners so this is a good thread to read.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 10, 2017)

svk said:


> Looks like Billy leaves about a quarter of the thickness of the tree for the trigger, is that about what you other guys do?
> 
> I don't cut many leaners so this is a good thread to read.


Just don't cut the strap above the bore cut .


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## Ryan'smilling (Jan 10, 2017)

That's probably a little more than I usually leave. On a medium to large tree I try leave somewhere between a 2x4 and a 2x6 worth of good holding wood. Bark doesn't count, obviously. 

But, that's my general felling practice. I suppose on something with a dramatic forward lean I might leave a little extra. It would take a lot of force to pull a 2x4 apart.


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## svk (Jan 10, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Just don't cut the strap above the bore cut .


Or...something undesirable happens?


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 10, 2017)

svk said:


> Or...something undesirable happens?


Not always but it could rip the saw out of your hands if it pops .


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## Marshy (Jan 10, 2017)

svk said:


> Looks like Billy leaves about a quarter of the thickness of the tree for the trigger, is that about what you other guys do?
> 
> I don't cut many leaners so this is a good thread to read.


Depends on species of the tree and how heavy the lean is. That will dictate how much you need to leave for the trigger.


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## hseII (Jan 10, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Not always but it could rip the saw out of your hands if it pops .



Kiting, I believe the Northerners refer to it as. [emoji6]


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## hseII (Jan 10, 2017)

svk said:


> Looks like Billy leaves about a quarter of the thickness of the tree for the trigger, is that about what you other guys do?
> 
> I don't cut many leaners so this is a good thread to read.





Ryan'smilling said:


> That's probably a little more than I usually leave. On a medium to large tree I try leave somewhere between a 2x4 and a 2x6 worth of good holding wood. Bark doesn't count, obviously.
> 
> But, that's my general felling practice. I suppose on something with a dramatic forward lean I might leave a little extra. It would take a lot of force to pull a 2x4 apart.



A 2"x6/8" has seemed to work good. 

I don't typically strap oaks that are still living,... but dead stuff & Popular, yep.


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## svk (Jan 10, 2017)

Learn something every day. 

Really the few leavers I ever have to cut are aspen and they will normally break before they chair. However this is a good practice to use.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 10, 2017)

svk said:


> Learn something every day.
> 
> Really the few leavers I ever have to cut are aspen and they will normally break before they chair. However this is a good practice to use.


On smaller trees where there is not as much room for a bore ,you can nip the sides after your face ,then do a reg backcut and the back wont blow out .


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## svk (Jan 10, 2017)

I can imagine guys who cut a lot of black cherry or box elder or other species that grow out sideways to reach the sun need to do this a lot more.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 10, 2017)

svk said:


> I can imagine guys who cut a lot of black cherry or box elder or other species that grow out sideways to reach the sun need to do this a lot more.


Alder around here is one of the worst species that will chair out when they lean ,I nip all those in the sides .
These has about a 30 degree lean and went over slow ,the side cuts look like a triangle to the face ,then go in with a reg back cut ,i could have chased these more and got less pull ,but the logs may have cracked when hit the ground going faster .


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## hseII (Jan 10, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Alder around here is one of the worst species that will chair out when they lean ,I nip all those in the sides .
> These has about a 30 degree lean and went over slow ,the side cuts look like a triangle to the face ,then go in with a reg back cut ,i could have chased these more and got less pull ,but the logs may have cracked when hit the ground going faster .
> View attachment 549822
> View attachment 549823
> View attachment 549824



I was called a fiber puller in a thread a couple years ago when I posted a stump that previously had a 100' tall heavy leaning red oak attached to it: I replied this might be true, but I'm not a house masher, & that was the primary concern. 

There was fiber pulled, but there was also a house missed in the process, & WhoTF cares about fiber pull on firewood?

The tiny culvert for the drive way heavily limited the weight that could be moved per load: it all had to be hauled out by pickup anyway. 

Moral of the Story:
The details matter. 

2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## svk (Jan 10, 2017)

hseII said:


> I was called a fiber puller in a thread a couple years ago when I posted a stump that previously had a 100' tall heavy leaning red oak attached to it: I replied this might be true, but I'm not a house masher, & that was the primary concern.
> 
> There was fiber pulled, but there was also a house missed in the process, & WhoTF cares about fiber pull on firewood?
> 
> ...


Like you said the tree came down safely and that's what matters. 

I will say my stumps have improved since I joined AS and trees normally fall where I plan. I've significantly decreased the depth of notches to allow a better hinge. They aren't perfect but I don't need them to be. There's always room to learn more and this thread is a good one for that.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2017)

chucker said:


> and we all know you never have a chair to set in and wonder "what just happened" after all your experience that never fails you! ?? lol? once you learn the correct procedure they will never occur again under any conditions! ?? lol false thinking will kill the best of us!


Sure they chair from time to time. Usually some huge rotten POS that you can't cut up fast enough or that didn't show a lightning seam that grew over. I chair about two trees a year out of many thousands. I sure as hell don't drag straps or chains around with me when I cut. Those only come out to pull the log truck around.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2017)

hanniedog said:


> Well what is the right way Mr Expert.


Well you could put your face in(wide open if you're nervous), gut the heart wood from the face, then bore cut the back. I rarely bore cut any more because it is too time consuming and too great a risk to have the tree sit on your bar, but that's the way they want it done by the books. The way I do it is put in your face, bore heart wood again, then cut the back cut one side at a time. The side I'm closer to I will cut from the back to the hinge. Then I will go around to the other side of the tree and cut from the hinge to the back. Mind your tip and don't keep it in any spot too long. You can feel when it gets tight. I just came off of a big oak job that I had to cut nearly everyone like that. I'm in the business of making logs so split logs don't sell to the mill. If you are really serious about learning I will post pictures and maybe some video. There's no reason why a guy can't learn to be safer when he is cutting. I cut alone and cut about a million bf a year. You need every trick you can get to walk out of the woods every day. Every time you cut a tree you increase your chances of that not happening.


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## msvold (Jan 11, 2017)

bitzer said:


> ... If you are really serious about learning I will post pictures and maybe some video. There's no reason why a guy can't learn to be safer when he is cutting. .... You need every trick you can get to walk out of the woods every day. Every time you cut a tree you increase your chances of that not happening.



I'm serious about learning. Would appreciate more pics and vids.


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## hardpan (Jan 11, 2017)

Bitzer is the real deal. I have followed his postings for a few years and will continue. 
Most of us have but a small tinkling of his experience and we do not have to constantly carry all of our tools and supplies everywhere we go. He replaces our extra junk with skill so for me I personally think when in doubt, chain it. I take along a silly amount of equipment and my truck or tractor is just a hundred feet away. Please carry on Bitzer.


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## hseII (Jan 11, 2017)

hardpan said:


> Bitzer is the real deal. I have followed his postings for a few years and will continue.
> Most of us have but a small tinkling of his experience and we do not have to constantly carry all of our tools and supplies everywhere we go. He replaces our extra junk with skill so for me I personally think when in doubt, chain it. I take along a silly amount of equipment and my truck or tractor is just a hundred feet away. Please carry on Bitzer.



Spot On Poast. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2017)

Wonder what it would be like to dump this one? 
Lol


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## Gologit (Jan 11, 2017)

msvold said:


> I'm serious about learning. Would appreciate more pics and vids.





msvold said:


> I'm serious about learning. Would appreciate more pics and vids.



http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...s-a-tree-to-barber-chair.283375/#post-5463271


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## svk (Jan 11, 2017)

hardpan said:


> Bitzer is the real deal. I have followed his postings for a few years and will continue.
> Most of us have but a small tinkling of his experience and we do not have to constantly carry all of our tools and supplies everywhere we go. He replaces our extra junk with skill so for me I personally think when in doubt, chain it. I take along a silly amount of equipment and my truck or tractor is just a hundred feet away. Please carry on Bitzer.


I agree. 

Another guy who really knows his stuff is @chucker. Always like to hear advice from these guys.


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## hardpan (Jan 11, 2017)

And once upon a time these guys had a mentor or three. Just too much at stake to plod ahead in the dark.


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## svk (Jan 11, 2017)

hardpan said:


> And once upon a time these guys had a mentor or three. Just too much at stake to plod ahead in the dark.


So true. 

Although there are a few guys on here that know everything and must have gained that knowledge by divine intervention.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 11, 2017)

I have no objection with some people using straps and will just continue to.
It shows awarness and saftey is being taken seriously Nothing wrong with a healthy respect "No your limits and play within it" However, overcoming fallling difficulties are a necessity for Pro production fallers and rope and chains are not part of the tools. I'm all for a person that wants to add a few more tricks to their trick bag. Professional advice or viable finding some may have suggested already are subject to change with diameter, species and geographical location and of course the speed you can cut the tree. Work up gradually with less lean and smaller diameter understanding the integrity of the soil root system and fibers in your area. move somewhere else then go back to grade 1 page 1 with limits


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2017)

hardpan said:


> Bitzer is the real deal. I have followed his postings for a few years and will continue.
> Most of us have but a small tinkling of his experience and we do not have to constantly carry all of our tools and supplies everywhere we go. He replaces our extra junk with skill so for me I personally think when in doubt, chain it. I take along a silly amount of equipment and my truck or tractor is just a hundred feet away. Please carry on Bitzer.


Thank you sir! Here's a good chair from 4 years ago. Hickory that split 25 feet up. Was around 30" on the stump. It had a lightning scar on the one side that I didn't see. I couldn't saw fast enough once it started opening up.

I was nearly killed/maimed by a 4 ft white oak six years ago. I ran about 15ft turned around and saw it coming back over the stump. I then turned to run and tripped and quickly pulled myself ahead. The slab landed inches from my foot. It had come 20ft back over the stump. I had bore cut it and had lost track of of my cuts and was in a hurry. I was using a short bar at the time.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2017)

This is what I do on all hard Leaners now. 

4ft red oak. Face(usually a snipe used with conventional or Humboldt for extra relief), gut heartwood from face, cut nearest back quarter from back to front, cut far quarter from front to back til it goes. The tab of wood that pulled from the stump is the wood I couldn't cut in time because it leaned so hard. Since it came from the stump it trimmed off clean.
Back side of red oak.


Face side of red oak.


30" White oak that was shaped like a rainbow. Very heavy head lean. Wide open face. Only had to cut one side before it went over. The pull trimmed off clean.


If you can follow the cut/chip pattern on this white oak stump and butt you can figure out how I cut it.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2017)

hardpan said:


> And once upon a time these guys had a mentor or three. Just too much at stake to plod ahead in the dark.


I didn't. I was handed a saw one day and was told put a notch in where you want it to fall. Then I was left alone for the week to clear a few acres of some big nasty box elder. Day two I had a 4ft boxelder explode on me. It was like lightning. Maybe the scariest thing that had happened to me up to that point. I never told anyone. I started reading some books and eventually started watching YouTube when guys started putting tree cutting videos up. I tried different ways to manipulate the hinge in order to manipulate the tree. I also started quietly reading and learning and posting here. 90 percent of my learning had been at the stump. Instincts play a big role. Not everyone has them.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Thank you sir! Here's a good chair from 4 years ago. Hickory that split 25 feet up. Was around 30" on the stump. It had a lightning scar on the one side that I didn't see. I couldn't saw fast enough once it started opening up.
> 
> I was nearly killed/maimed by a 4 ft white oak six years ago. I ran about 15ft turned around and saw it coming back over the stump. I then turned to run and tripped and quickly pulled myself ahead. The slab landed inches from my foot. It had come 20ft back over the stump. I had bore cut it and had lost track of of my cuts and was in a hurry. I was using a short bar at the time.
> 
> ...


It's amazing how easy bitternut hickory will split. I split one length ways once just by dropping the log from the logarch to the ground.
The first tree I chaired was a 24" beech which smashed my P45, but that was in 1985 before I new what a dutchman was. Lol


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## treebilly (Jan 11, 2017)

These forums are great for learning. Also Mr Baranek's book (even though considered outdated by a few) has been a gift to my career


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## JCMC (Jan 11, 2017)

I don't cut them enough so I play it on the safe side with the chain and binder. Better safe than sorry!


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## hseII (Jan 11, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's amazing how easy bitternut hickory will split. I split one length ways once just by dropping the log from the logarch to the ground.
> The first tree I chaired was a 24" beech which smashed my P45, but that was in 1985 before I new what a dutchman was. Lol



How about a Dutchwoman? 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2017)

hseII said:


> How about a Dutchwoman?
> 
> 
> 2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


I can't think of a good comeback.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2017)

This guy was extremely lucky!


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## VW Splitter (Jan 11, 2017)

This is a heavy leaning sycamore tree I recently cut while doing some volunteer disaster relief work in Gatlinburg TN after the recent wild fire. The tree was leaning, 90 to 100' tall, and had been 54" in dia. It was hollow up the middle and 2/3 of the base was rotten/burnt/gone. I'm an electrician by trade, not a logger. I have learned a lot from this site, reading books, and watching videos. I had to really think hard on this before I cut it. It needed to miss some power lines and not damage two other nearby trees. It went within 10' of the way I was aiming it. 
The stump measured 54" one way by 12' + or - the other way.


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## svk (Jan 11, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> This is a heavy leaning sycamore tree I recently cut while doing some volunteer disaster relief work in Gatlinburg TN after the recent wild fire. The tree was leaning, 90 to 100' tall, and had been 54" in dia. It was hollow up the middle and 2/3 of the base was rotten/burnt/gone. I'm an electrician by trade, not a logger. I have learned a lot from this site, reading books, and watching videos. I had to really think hard on this before I cut it. It needed to miss some power lines and not damage two other nearby trees. It went within 10' of the way I was aiming it. View attachment 550131
> The stump measured 54" one way by 12' + or - the other way.


Impressive work there considering how little you were given to start with!


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> This guy was extremely lucky!


 There are those that prevent things for happenings, those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and the ones that just say...
WTF just happened.

So WTF did just happen? Comments everyone.

That's an intense explosion.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> There are those that prevent things for happenings, those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and the ones that just say...
> WTF just happened.
> 
> So WTF did just happen? Comments everyone.
> ...


My guess is that the tree had vertical fractures in the trunk, possibly due to lightning.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 12, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Thank you sir! Here's a good chair from 4 years ago. Hickory that split 25 feet up. Was around 30" on the stump. It had a lightning scar on the one side that I didn't see. I couldn't saw fast enough once it started opening up.
> 
> I was nearly killed/maimed by a 4 ft white oak six years ago. I ran about 15ft turned around and saw it coming back over the stump. I then turned to run and tripped and quickly pulled myself ahead. The slab landed inches from my foot. It had come 20ft back over the stump. I had bore cut it and had lost track of of my cuts and was in a hurry. I was using a short bar at the time.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what my first barber chair lookedlike, even almost the same size. Every thing was fine, notch, back cut, walking away when I heard the pop. It even started falling normally but chaired when the undercut closed up - my mistake, I cut too thin of a wedge


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## derwoodii (Jan 12, 2017)

this brave bloke used straps 100 foot up to hold a leaning decayed trunk together as he dismantles it "sphincter"


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## Woody912 (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> This guy was extremely lucky!




I thought that tree looked like a pending disaster from the first frame!


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> There are those that prevent things for happenings, those that make things happen, those that watch things happen and the ones that just say...
> WTF just happened.
> 
> So WTF did just happen? Comments everyone.
> ...


At 36 seconds he looks at the camera. His mind is not fully on task. He's more worried about the film. Shortly after he should have realized there was something wrong. I have no experience with Doug fir but I'm pretty sure if I did I would have known what was up with the tree when I put the face in. If not then as soon as I started the back cut. In species that I know I can tell things are happening pretty quickly. At that point he should have re-evaluated how he was going to cut it up instead of trying to race the back cut for the camera. There are those that take a guy by surprise but there are those that can be taken. My forester sent me this video months ago with the caption, " well your day wasn't as bad as this guys".


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 12, 2017)

derwoodii said:


> this brave bloke used straps 100 foot up to hold a leaning decayed trunk together as he dismantles it "sphincter"




Holy crap.

There's no way I would be that high in the air on anything - let alone that high in the air on that, doing that.

(That looked like more than 100 feet - eesshhh....)


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's amazing how easy bitternut hickory will split. I split one length ways once just by dropping the log from the logarch to the ground.
> The first tree I chaired was a 24" beech which smashed my P45, but that was in 1985 before I new what a dutchman was. Lol


Yep. It was a shagbark in the picture but really the same difference. Hickory is by far the worst splitting tree. Followed by white oak and then ash.


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## firefighter938 (Jan 12, 2017)

derwoodii said:


> this brave bloke used straps 100 foot up to hold a leaning decayed trunk together as he dismantles it "sphincter"




That's an awesome video. Give those guys credit! I also feel sorry for that climber, having to walk around all the time with balls that big.


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## hardpan (Jan 12, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I didn't. I was handed a saw one day and was told put a notch in where you want it to fall. Then I was left alone for the week to clear a few acres of some big nasty box elder. Day two I had a 4ft boxelder explode on me. It was like lightning. Maybe the scariest thing that had happened to me up to that point. I never told anyone. I started reading some books and eventually started watching YouTube when guys started putting tree cutting videos up. I tried different ways to manipulate the hinge in order to manipulate the tree. I also started quietly reading and learning and posting here. 90 percent of my learning had been at the stump. Instincts play a big role. Not everyone has them.



I can't say much for your employer that first week. His wife must have been the insurance investigator for the company. LOL. 
Your instincts and desire to learn a better way have kept you alive and healthy.

I REALLY like that method for cutting leaners, better than a coos bay. You can better keep track of the hinge width on the opposite side and the back cut will not wander too high or too low in respect to the face cut as often happens (to me) with bigger trees. The back cut is easier to control with a shorter bar. The bore is only half of the tree width so it is faster. I have a question, what makes your decision to sometimes bore out the heartwood, entered from the face cut?


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Yep. It was a shagbark in the picture but really the same difference. Hickory is by far the worst splitting tree. Followed by white oak and then ash.



I did not know White Oak was in the mix: I've been really fortunate.
All the White Oak I've fooled with, I can't remember ever chairing one.

Popular is the main Chair prone tree around here, but I will certainly be more cautious with White Oak & Hickory from now on.

Thank You. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I can't think of a good comeback.



No Ill will here, just ribbing you a bit.

How's the weather today over there? 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

I just wanted to add that the lower the tree is cut to the ground, the less susceptible it may be to chairing as the grain there is much tougher as anyone knows how hard it is to split a stump piece with an axe.
In the video I posted, if only the feller had dragged in a 36' chain and a load binder up and over the mountain, he could have saved that glorified snag. Lol.


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I just wanted to add that the lower the tree is cut to the ground, the less susceptible it may be to chairing as the grain there is much tougher as anyone knows how hard it is to split a stump piece with an axe.
> In the video I posted, if only the feller had dragged in a 36' chain and a load binder up and over the mountain, he could have saved that glorified snag. Lol.


HaHaHa.


Those Ratchet Straps we spoke of earlier are lighter, much lighter, & do the job: you were using them when I was still in diapers, so I'd venture a guess that you already know this. 



2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

hseII said:


> No Ill will here, just ribbing you a bit.
> 
> How's the weather today over there?
> 
> ...


It's been minus 30 or more everyday since New Years, but supposed to be raining by saturday.
I haven't been in the bush for over a month now.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

hseII said:


> HaHaHa.
> 
> 
> Those Ratchet Straps we spoke of earlier are lighter, much lighter, & do the job: you were using them when I was still in diapers, so I'd venture a guess that you already know this.
> ...


Thats a much better idea using a rachet strap than chain and binder for the reasons you mentioned. It also takes much more force to tighten a load binder than it does a ratchet strap.
How come no one has asked me what the hell Im doing in this picture?


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 550244
> 
> Thats a much better idea using a rachet strap than chain and binder for the reasons you mentioned. It also takes much more force to tighten a load binder than it does a ratchet strap.
> How come no one has asked me what the hell Im doing in this picture?



Hanging a clothes line for your buddy Paul? 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## SeMoTony (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> This guy was extremely lucky!



Escape / evade route plan? ?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

hseII said:


> Hanging a clothes line for your buddy Paul?
> 
> 
> 2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


Close. Lol


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## motor head (Jan 12, 2017)

Cinching it up so it won't split?


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 550244
> 
> Thats a much better idea using a rachet strap than chain and binder for the reasons you mentioned. It also takes much more force to tighten a load binder than it does a ratchet strap.
> How come no one has asked me what the hell Im doing in this picture?


Looks like you are trying to save a peeler .


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## TN woodcutter (Jan 12, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> This is a heavy leaning sycamore tree I recently cut while doing some volunteer disaster relief work in Gatlinburg TN after the recent wild fire. The tree was leaning, 90 to 100' tall, and had been 54" in dia. It was hollow up the middle and 2/3 of the base was rotten/burnt/gone. I'm an electrician by trade, not a logger. I have learned a lot from this site, reading books, and watching videos. I had to really think hard on this before I cut it. It needed to miss some power lines and not damage two other nearby trees. It went within 10' of the way I was aiming it. View attachment 550131
> The stump measured 54" one way by 12' + or - the other way.


Excellent drop there, VW. I was over in Gatlinburg too, after they opened it up. I didn't have to drop anything like that, though. That looks sketchy as heck.


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## svk (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I haven't been in the bush for over a month now.


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## svk (Jan 12, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> This is a heavy leaning sycamore tree I recently cut while doing some volunteer disaster relief work in Gatlinburg TN after the recent wild fire. The tree was leaning, 90 to 100' tall, and had been 54" in dia. It was hollow up the middle and 2/3 of the base was rotten/burnt/gone. I'm an electrician by trade, not a logger. I have learned a lot from this site, reading books, and watching videos. I had to really think hard on this before I cut it. It needed to miss some power lines and not damage two other nearby trees. It went within 10' of the way I was aiming it. View attachment 550131
> The stump measured 54" one way by 12' + or - the other way.


Can you share with us what you did to control the fall? Or if others who have dealt with these can comment too that would be great.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

motor head said:


> Cinching it up so it won't split?





Trx250r180 said:


> Looks like you are trying to save a peeler .


Bingo!
I paid 750.00 for that cherry tree, plus 15,000 for the other 23 trees I bought in that particular bush.
The cherry had a double crown, so when it hits the ground or catches another tree on the way down it can split from crown to butt.
As an added precaution I stay with the tree and saw off most if not all holding wood once the tree is committed. That way the tree can roll off the stump with little or no fibre pull.
Bitzer is gonna give me heck for posting these 17 year old pics, and you can't really blame him. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Bingo!
> I paid 750.00 for that cherry tree, plus 15,000 for the other 23 trees I bought in that particular bush.
> The cherry had a double crown, so when it hits the ground or catches another tree on the way down it can split from crown to butt.
> As an added precaution I stay with the tree and saw off most if not all holding wood once the tree is committed.


Do you gut the faces on the peelers to prevent fiber pulling ?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 12, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Do you gut the faces on the peelers to prevent fiber pulling ?


Yes, but mostly on leaners I'll plunge out the heart center thru the face. A fast saw is an absolute must when sawing in the backcut on a leaner which must be sawn with no hesitation.


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## cantoo (Jan 12, 2017)

Well, looking at Gypo Loggers picture I maybe better do something different with the big cherry that fell over in the bush this past summer. What length would you cut a peeler 8'-4"? They are logging up the road from me right now, looks like they are removing pretty much every ash tree even small 8" stuff.


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## woodfarmer (Jan 12, 2017)

John, you should have a thread where you post a new picture everyday with a little commentary, I'm sure they would be very interesting.


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## Woody912 (Jan 12, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Yep. It was a shagbark in the picture but really the same difference. Hickory is by far the worst splitting tree. Followed by white oak and then ash.


Would have thought red oak much more prone than white oak? Black locust would be way up there on my list although not often cut commercially


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Would have thought red oak much more prone than white oak? Black locust would be way up there on my list although not often cut commercially



I would have thought Red more so than White, but I'm just a hack. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## svk (Jan 12, 2017)

hseII said:


> I would have thought Red more so than White, but I'm just a hack.
> 
> 
> 2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


Agree here as well. Although maybe it has to do with crown shape of the white wanting to go in all directions?


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

svk said:


> Agree here as well. Although maybe it has to do with crown shape of the white wanting to go in all directions?



I'm confusing density with strength. 
Red sometimes acts like a sponge, & can be a bit stringy, therefore I'm assuming more flexible. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Woody912 (Jan 12, 2017)

hseII said:


> I'm confusing density with strength.
> Red sometimes acts like a sponge, & can be a bit stringy, therefore I'm assuming more flexible.
> 
> 
> 2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


yes, but a clean pc of red oak is the straightest and easiest thing I know of to split with a maul, maybe even more so than ash. Hickories have me bumfuzzled, they are not usually easy to split from a round but no doubt about their propensity to fall apart in tree form. Even a clear pc of white oak is string, at least around here


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## VW Splitter (Jan 12, 2017)

[QUOTE="svk, post: 6116640,

There was not a lot to work with to control that one. Standing behind the lean, the long thin trunk ran with the lean front to back. The huge hollow and missing 2/3 of the trunk made a natural super large face cut and sort of a hinge. looking from the back the tree, hinge would make it fall to the left and the lean would make it want to fall straight ahead. I was hoping, and praying for sort of a combination of the two. I cut the hinge down super thin on the front side so there would not be much holding it on that side. Then cut it like it was a regular face cut and back cut, keeping the compression side of the hinge thin, and the back side thicker hoping, and praying some more, it would hold a little longer as it started to fall. I really thought it would fall as soon as I started cutting the back cut. You can see by the picture of the stump, I did a lot of cutting before it let go. It went within 10' of where I was aiming, and praying for. All that praying, it's good to have the guy that invented gravity helping you out.


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## hseII (Jan 12, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> View attachment 550381
> [QUOTE="svk, post: 6116640,
> 
> There was not a lot to work with to control that one. Standing behind the lean, the long thin trunk ran with the lean front to back. The huge hollow and missing 2/3 of the trunk made a natural super large face cut and sort of a hinge. looking from the back the tree, hinge would make it fall to the left and the lean would make it want to fall straight ahead. I was hoping, and praying for sort of a combination of the two. I cut the hinge down super thin on the front side so there would not be much holding it on that side. Then cut it like it was a regular face cut and back cut, keeping the compression side of the hinge thin, and the back side thicker hoping, and praying some more, it would hold a little longer as it started to fall. I really thought it would fall as soon as I started cutting the back cut. You can see by the picture of the stump, I did a lot of cutting before it let go. It went within 10' of where I was aiming, and praying for. All that praying, it's good to have the guy that invented gravity helping you out.



Who can be against us? 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Would have thought red oak much more prone than white oak? Black locust would be way up there on my list although not often cut commercially


It's about the length of the wood fibers. Usually red oak will pop off the stump before it will slab kind of like hard maple. I've had one red oak chair on me that I can remember versus many white oak.


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 550260
> 
> 
> 
> ...


John you've got some good pics. I like seeing any pictures of logging operations really. Fun to see new ones. That is a load of logs if it was truck and pup.


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2017)

hardpan said:


> I can't say much for your employer that first week. His wife must have been the insurance investigator for the company. LOL.
> Your instincts and desire to learn a better way have kept you alive and healthy.
> 
> I REALLY like that method for cutting leaners, better than a coos bay. You can better keep track of the hinge width on the opposite side and the back cut will not wander too high or too low in respect to the face cut as often happens (to me) with bigger trees. The back cut is easier to control with a shorter bar. The bore is only half of the tree width so it is faster. I have a question, what makes your decision to sometimes bore out the heartwood, entered from the face cut?


I bore the heart from the face on most every sawtimber tree that does not get a Dutchman. If I know I can saw it off the stump then I don't but if I'm chasing the hinge and I know I will leave some especially on big sticks then I cut the heart for sure. On hard Leaners it's a must. Removing as much compression wood as possible before releasing is the name of the game when it comes to hard leaning timber.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 13, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I bore the heart from the face on most every sawtimber tree that doesn't get a Dutchman.


 We call that a beavertail or beavertailin' .
It gets its name from the beaver tail like patterns left in the stump from swiping back and forth. Very prominent in the soft wood 'white woods'.


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## turnkey4099 (Jan 13, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Would have thought red oak much more prone than white oak? Black locust would be way up there on my list although not often cut commercially



I cut around 100 cord of borer killed Black Locust a few yeas ago, didn't have even one chair.


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## square1 (Jan 13, 2017)

I'll be chaining my first tree ever in the next day or two. Not becases it's a leaner, even though it is, but because it's already split nearly in half and that split is working against the direction it needs to go (about 90 degrees from the lean).

Here's a heavy leaning dead ash dropped a couple years ago using the plunge & bore method

Two big dead ash leaning over my trail through the woods. The bigger one had a 10" cedar hung up in it.





Cleared my escape routes. Cut a shallow steep notch to try to steer it away from the black walnuts growing in the area





Drew a line around the trunk with my saw then plunged & bored out the center





Bulls eye! (Sorry this pics a little fuzzy, I was shaking pretty good after she hit the ground




)





Doesn't look like much, but it popped pretty good when I was cutting the trigger from the center out. That was my queue to run for the hills.


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## bitzer (Jan 13, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> We call that a beavertail or beavertailin' .
> It gets its name from the beaver tail like patterns left in the stump from swiping back and forth. Very prominent in the soft wood 'white woods'.


Yeah I can see that.


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## bitzer (Jan 13, 2017)

square1 said:


> I'll be chaining my first tree ever in the next day or two. Not becases it's a leaner, even though it is, but because it's already split nearly in half and that split is working against the direction it needs to go (about 90 degrees from the lean).
> 
> Here's a heavy leaning dead ash dropped a couple years ago using the plunge & bore method
> 
> ...


Nice level cuts. Wood looks pretty punky. I'd say you got lucky it didn't sit on your bar. You cut it up a little tight. Not my preferred method but I'd say well executed other then that. I'd throw a snipe in the stump next time too. Extra relief.


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## rarefish383 (Jan 13, 2017)

I'm the 4th generation in the family doing residential tree work. I tend to stay away from giving felling advice. If you look at the pro guys here, they all have one thing in common that can really change the outcome of dropping a tree. They have big, powerful, sharp saws. THE TIME THAT STRESS IS ON WOOD MATTERS. I've always used 100CC saws for felling. If I'm in smaller wood I'll put a 25 in bar on, bigger 36", bigger 47". If some one is using an MS 290 with a 20" bar and half dull chain, and they are rocking back and forth trying to make a back cut, they are an accident in progress. Now that I'm retired most of my cutting is firewood. So my big saw is a 660. I don't know how many times I've showed up to help friends that have just moved up to their first pro quality saw and want to show it off. Here try my new saw, it's bad azz. I make one cut, shake my head and say, "I can't use this thing, it's dull". They are so used to nicking the ground with each cut, that after 5 minutes they don't even know the saw is dull. Firewood guys should never try throwing a hollow tree. A few BTU's aren't worth your life. Hollow trees scare pros. Most firewood guys don't know enough about them to be scared. I've seen lots of the guys here progress. I've seen the light bulb come on when they learned how to sharpen saws, when they learned how to use face cuts, they have grown. So, I know there are guys here just starting, and they don't know. You can't be aware of what you don't know. Give advice assuming people are using sub standard equipment, most are. Take advice assuming your equipment is sub standard, it probably is. I've made it 60 years with only a few minor nicks and cuts. But I grew up under trees. At 5 I could tie a saw on my Dad's rope with a bowline, and get out from under the tree before he pulled it up. Always cut with a friend. If you have to take a video of your new found skills, we will probably see it on youtube under tree failures. Your cell is your friend, your video is not. To say every one has to start somewhere is true, if you are learning a trade, like residential tree removal or logging. Cutting firewood to heat your house is not a trade. Some trees you should just shake your head and walk away. Wait till nature brings it down. This isn't the Pro Forum, or Logging forum. Just be careful, end of my ramble, Joe.


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## Jakers (Jan 13, 2017)

@rarefish383 , that is spot on. i was very tempted to throw out my version of advise on here but i figured i would let the loggers weigh in. owning a tree service myself for 4 years has taught me a ton. it has thankfully taught me to walk away sometimes too. i cant believe i made it out alive through 15 years of cutting firewood and helping friends with storm damaged trees. hollow trees still scare the crap out of me. i wont climb them and if i cant get the bucket truck near them i walk away


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## svk (Jan 13, 2017)

rarefish383 said:


> I'm the 4th generation in the family doing residential tree work. I tend to stay away from giving felling advice. If you look at the pro guys here, they all have one thing in common that can really change the outcome of dropping a tree. They have big, powerful, sharp saws. THE TIME THAT STRESS IS ON WOOD MATTERS. I've always used 100CC saws for felling. If I'm in smaller wood I'll put a 25 in bar on, bigger 36", bigger 47". If some one is using an MS 290 with a 20" bar and half dull chain, and they are rocking back and forth trying to make a back cut, they are an accident in progress. Now that I'm retired most of my cutting is firewood. So my big saw is a 660. I don't know how many times I've showed up to help friends that have just moved up to their first pro quality saw and want to show it off. Here try my new saw, it's bad azz. I make one cut, shake my head and say, "I can't use this thing, it's dull". They are so used to nicking the ground with each cut, that after 5 minutes they don't even know the saw is dull. Firewood guys should never try throwing a hollow tree. A few BTU's aren't worth your life. Hollow trees scare pros. Most firewood guys don't know enough about them to be scared. I've seen lots of the guys here progress. I've seen the light bulb come on when they learned how to sharpen saws, when they learned how to use face cuts, they have grown. So, I know there are guys here just starting, and they don't know. You can't be aware of what you don't know. Give advice assuming people are using sub standard equipment, most are. Take advice assuming your equipment is sub standard, it probably is. I've made it 60 years with only a few minor nicks and cuts. But I grew up under trees. At 5 I could tie a saw on my Dad's rope with a bowline, and get out from under the tree before he pulled it up. Always cut with a friend. If you have to take a video of your new found skills, we will probably see it on youtube under tree failures. Your cell is your friend, your video is not. To say every one has to start somewhere is true, if you are learning a trade, like residential tree removal or logging. Cutting firewood to heat your house is not a trade. Some trees you should just shake your head and walk away. Wait till nature brings it down. This isn't the Pro Forum, or Logging forum. Just be careful, end of my ramble, Joe.


Great advice!


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## hardpan (Jan 13, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Would have thought red oak much more prone than white oak? Black locust would be way up there on my list although not often cut commercially



Ouch. Most of my wood is white oak. Fortunately mother nature takes most of them down for me and for firewood white does not split as easily as red. Duly noted.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 13, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Well, looking at Gypo Loggers picture I maybe better do something different with the big cherry that fell over in the bush this past summer. What length would you cut a peeler 8'-4"? They are logging up the road from me right now, looks like they are removing pretty much every ash tree even small 8" stuff.


In the east where I cut, 8' 6" was the minimum for veneer, then 9'4" and 10'4" Could you post a pic of your windthrown cherry? Preferably the butt and stump end.


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## hardpan (Jan 13, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I bore the heart from the face on most every sawtimber tree that does not get a Dutchman. If I know I can saw it off the stump then I don't but if I'm chasing the hinge and I know I will leave some especially on big sticks then I cut the heart for sure. On hard Leaners it's a must. Removing as much compression wood as possible before releasing is the name of the game when it comes to hard leaning timber.



OK, compression wood. I have heard you recommend removing as much as possible a few times in the past. We can figure the compression wood going to the center of the stem.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 13, 2017)

bitzer said:


> John you've got some good pics. I like seeing any pictures of logging operations really. Fun to see new ones. That is a load of logs if it was truck and pup.


Id take some current pics, but Im just cutting dead spruce which isnt too exciting, however, you will be happy to hear that I found at least 200 vids and pics that havent been seen here before, I just need to figure out how to get them off this disc and onto my IPad.
Yes it was a truck and pup, over 10,000 bf, if I recall correctly.


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## cantoo (Jan 13, 2017)

Gypo, I took a look at my pics because I thought the log might be in one of the pics. It's just at the right edge in this pic 2nd log in. I'm guessing 16" dia maybe, I'll get a few better pics next time I'm in that section. There is a couple of nice straight beauties back there but not mine to cut. Well until they fall on the ground that is. Last bush I logged in had a bunch of cherry that the loggers refused to take. Some idiot hunter years ago decided that 14" cherry trees are great trees to deer hunt out of. He did at least 10 trees that we found. He used lag bolts and 3" lengths of angle iron for tree climbing steps. Only inch or 2 of the steel sticking out. He even went up 30' for some stupid reason. I cut them up for firewood and ruining a couple of chains.


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## rarefish383 (Jan 13, 2017)

Sounds like one of my stands, but I use Hickory, Joe.


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## cantoo (Jan 13, 2017)

I usually grab all our worn out alum ladders at work and leave them laying around the bush. They work good enough.


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## bitzer (Jan 14, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 550570
> 
> Id take some current pics, but Im just cutting dead spruce which isnt too exciting, however, you will be happy to hear that I found at least 200 vids and pics that havent been seen here before, I just need to figure out how to get them off this disc and onto my IPad.
> Yes it was a truck and pup, over 10,000 bf, if I recall correctly.


I'm always amazed how heavy you guys can run. Our loads are literally half that.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 14, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I'm always amazed how heavy you guys can run. Our loads are literally half that.


I'm pretty sure a legal payload for that truck and pup is 70 tons.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 14, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Gypo, I took a look at my pics because I thought the log might be in one of the pics. It's just at the right edge in this pic 2nd log in. I'm guessing 16" dia maybe, I'll get a few better pics next time I'm in that section. There is a couple of nice straight beauties back there but not mine to cut. Well until they fall on the ground that is. Last bush I logged in had a bunch of cherry that the loggers refused to take. Some idiot hunter years ago decided that 14" cherry trees are great trees to deer hunt out of. He did at least 10 trees that we found. He used lag bolts and 3" lengths of angle iron for tree climbing steps. Only inch or 2 of the steel sticking out. He even went up 30' for some stupid reason. I cut them up for firewood and ruining a couple of chains. View attachment 550610


Its hard to tell from the picture what grade or size the log is, but it looks worth setting aside. Yes, those deer stands can really mess up a good tree and chain.
Your landing looks like a windy place. Most of my jobs were not too far from Goderich.


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## cantoo (Jan 14, 2017)

Gypo, took some pics of some of the cherry back in the bush. Most split into 2 at about 20 to 30' high. Some are 20" on the stump and lots have gentle curves. 3nd pic should be the one that the chunk blew out of.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

Looks like you may have some veneer cherry, but hard to tell until its on the ground. The double tops often crack down to the butt log when they hit the ground.
Have you noticed who the log trucker is in the area? Wondering if it was Jaze Enterprises?


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 15, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> My guess is that the tree had vertical fractures in the trunk, possibly due to lightning.




That was just top weigh against compromised Integrity.
Lots of reasons why that exploded.
All the stars would have to align for that to work. Sharp saw with good power and speed, and no blind duchtman like he had. Very important to thin out your sap wood for the ones that fool you having your dogs in the corner so you never have to adjust at a critical time. He certainly knew it was a shell. I wouldn't try that on a tree that big. I would have set my back cut from the back then worked to the low side like he did.(probably not walked down the bank to do it though, but it worked) Shallow cut back up to the top, thinning out the shell a little more (tip never going in) putting the dogs in the high side corner of the mouth with a 36" bar and cut to your hinge in one motion. Cut out what's left of the back
staying in the same cerf from lowest point towards you.

That top was moving for a long time. Never stall the forward movement if you start the forward movement.
This Isn't a heavy leaner, it has great potential to be a "heavy leaner" cuting procedures are the same as this one.
Absolutely no Blind Dutchman when you are dealing with a shell and that kind of top weight.That was likely a healthy looking tree on the outside with trunk heart rot due to oxygen exchange. This probaby started from the bottom it looks like.
The undercut often will start tightening up on many like this.


He would have had trouble with dogging in from the high side due to the shape of the tree and didn't do a safe job.

**Tips anyone?
I would have taken another piece out of the undercut to match it up by back baring up from high side with the tip in about 4" to meet the flat cut then bore in and cut down to fix it *DO that in the first place when a trunk is oddly shaped.
You also can just make the Humboldt cut into a pie cut and clean it up that way too. If you open the U/C with the pie (birdsmouth) or do a west coast Swanson you can reach further in and start your low side back cut boring through the undercut when you don't have an option of walking down to a low side. Big trees on much steeper ground, it's a long way around when you only have one side to work from on a side hill lay otherwise.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 15, 2017)

^that guy was realy lucky and he is learning from the school of hard knocks. Very sad to see. Realy inexperienced!
You can not have a bypass cut in a tree like that if you cut it up like that. You have to have your dogs in the high corner early and be looking up to see what the top is doing, if you can't do the other three things and you cut it up that way then that's just mistake number four.


I see that tree was doable it's just not what I want to do.


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## bitzer (Jan 15, 2017)

I would have cut the low side about halfway from hinge back and then got on the high side instead of walking it around. From the high side of the hinge cut and walk it back leaving a tab in the back to keep it on the stump. Get rid of as much compression wood as possible before releasing.

I don't think he had a Dutchman in there. Just the bark marked. Right around 1:07 the tree pops. He should have stopped then and cut from the hinge back on the high side. If it was already moving too fast then he should have bailed sooner because it was already a lost cause.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

Without having been there, I'd say explosives would have been the best way to take it down, which is often done with large snags.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I would have cut the low side about halfway from hinge back and then got on the high side instead of walking it around. From the high side of the hinge cut and walk it back leaving a tab in the back to keep it on the stump. Get rid of as much compression wood as possible before releasing.
> 
> I don't think he had a Dutchman in there. Just the bark marked. Right around 1:07 the tree pops. He should have stopped then and cut from the hinge back on the high side. If it was already moving too fast then he should have bailed sooner because it was already a lost cause.


Was just wondering how things may have been different if he had sawn in his cuts at 90 degrees from any seams in the trunk as opposed to parallel to them? Regardless, I'd never go near that one, as it looked like a den tree for critters and good loggers always leave den trees for wildlife. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

We haven't heard from Cantoo in almost 24 hrs. I hope he didn't chair a cherry.
Just waxing philosophical for a bit, I don't think most people understand the dynamics of a dutchman or what really causes a tree to chair.
So I have drawn two diagrams to try to explain the most common mistake that is made that adds to the chances of a tree chairing.
When we cut in our undercut, it is best to cut the angular cut first, as any overcut (kerf) will be left in the stump causing little or no effect. This makes it easier to cut an accurate horizontal cut without leaving a dutchman ( unintentional kerf) as shown in figure A.
In figure B an overcut is shown (unintentional). When the backcut is sawn in, that overcut closes first , causing tremendous tension and the possibility of a chair or in the least, difficult or impossible wedging.
Hope my diagram is self explanatory.
Any thoughts or additional explanations?


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## treebilly (Jan 15, 2017)

I agree with the fact that the Dutchman on the under cut is bad. On the angular it's better. Still not what we strive for. The whole point of your notch is for everything to line up. The angular Dutchman is more forgiving but still not textbook.


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## Woody912 (Jan 15, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551120
> We haven't heard from Cantoo in almost 24 hrs. I hope he didn't chair a cherry.
> Just waxing philosophical for a bit, I don't think most people understand the dynamics of a dutchman or what really causes a tree to chair.
> So I have drawn two diagrams to try to explain the most common mistake that is made that adds to the chances of a tree chairing.
> ...



Never actually understood why a Dutchman was bad till I read this. Thank you very much


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

treebilly said:


> I agree with the fact that the Dutchman on the under cut is bad. On the angular it's better. Still not what we strive for. The whole point of your notch is for everything to line up. The angular Dutchman is more forgiving but still not textbook.


Very true!
I guess when we think about it, a large unintentional horizontal dutchman is similar to falling a tree with only a kerf as an undercut.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Never actually understood why a Dutchman was bad till I read this. Thank you very much


Its good to know that our discussion here may save life and limb as well as some wood fibre.


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## treebilly (Jan 15, 2017)

With a horizontal Dutchman you might as well go coosbay. I've done it but don't recommend it to anyone with less experience. **** I still don't like it when I have to.


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## hseII (Jan 15, 2017)

Thank You for keeping this current. 

Hopefully different people will keep seeing this. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Woody912 (Jan 15, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Its good to know that our discussion here may save life and limb as well as some wood fibre.



My knowledge has increased about 1000% since I joined AS but I still cannot make a straight vertical or horizontal cut to save my soul! Proved it again today bucking a red elm. Will I get laughed at if I take a framing square and a level to the woods with me? LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> My knowledge has increased about 1000% since I joined AS but I still cannot make a straight vertical or horizontal cut to save my soul! Proved it again today bucking a red elm. Will I get laughed at if I take a framing square and a level to the woods with me? LOL


Lol, join the club, no two stumps of mine are the same and most of my trees have some sort of dutchman, but I make up for some of my stupid mistakes with a fast saw, fast reflexes, nerves of steel, and a well defined escape route. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

One trick is to get right down there and check to see if a dutchman is lingering in there somewhere.


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## cantoo (Jan 15, 2017)

Woody912, on ones that matter like yard trees I tie a rope around the tree and then spray paint the rope. When you remove the rope you will have a straight line to cut to.
Gypo, I'm still alive, never even had to start a saw today. Was hauling logs home and had enough trouble doing that. I don't have permission to remove any cherry trees so they will be left standing for now. This one is pretty straight all the way to the top.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 15, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Woody912, on ones that matter like yard trees I tie a rope around the tree and then spray paint the rope. When you remove the rope you will have a straight line to cut to.
> Gypo, I'm still alive, never even had to start a saw today. Was hauling logs home and had enough trouble doing that. I don't have permission to remove any cherry trees so they will be left standing for now. This one is pretty straight all the way to the top.
> View attachment 551150


Nice looking cherry! Could you cut it anyway with a real low stump, cover the stump with ground debris and pull the top into the neighbours bush and hide the butt log under a load of firewood? Lol


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## VW Splitter (Jan 15, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551120
> We haven't heard from Cantoo in almost 24 hrs. I hope he didn't chair a cherry.
> Just waxing philosophical for a bit, I don't think most people understand the dynamics of a dutchman or what really causes a tree to chair.
> So I have drawn two diagrams to try to explain the most common mistake that is made that adds to the chances of a tree chairing.
> ...



A picture is worth a 1000 words. sometime you professionals speak in secrete code. I had no idea what the dutch men were doing. I always try to get my face cuts to line up, if I miss a little, I will cut a little more to make them meet. I have been lucky not to have one chair on me. Just learned about leaners and bore cutting a couple of years ago. I used the bore cut on a big hollow leaning sycamore yesterday while doing some more disaster relief work in Gatlinburg TN. I will try to post some pics soon, would love to have a professional opinion if I am doing it correctly. Maybe before I get hurt. I appreciate the wisdom here and willingness to share.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 15, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> A picture is worth a 1000 words. I will try to post some pics soon, would love to have a professional opinion if I am doing it correctly. Maybe before I get hurt. I appreciate the wisdom here



The only stupid question in industry is the question that was never asked.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 16, 2017)

Here's a classic example of a dutchmen, not mine. It was a 30" spruce. Spruce is one of the most forgiving species when it comes to chairing.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 16, 2017)

I have a tree with a good 30 degree or so lean i want to swing 30-45 degrees to the left to not hit a barn ,the lean is directly at the barn ,i really do not want to chunk it out ,does this seem doable ?


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 16, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have a tree with a good 30 degree or so lean i want to swing 30-45 degrees to the left to not hit a barn ,the lean is directly at the barn ,i really do not want to chunk it out ,does this seem doable ?


 Yes, with the right cut and the right species. What?


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## treebilly (Jan 16, 2017)

Right cut, right species. A guy line 90* to the lay would help. It's do able. Just figuring out how can be the issue.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 16, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have a tree with a good 30 degree or so lean i want to swing 30-45 degrees to the left to not hit a barn ,the lean is directly at the barn ,i really do not want to chunk it out ,does this seem doable ?


I'll draw another diagram how I would approach after I finish cutting this load of firewood. Lol
Can you take a pic of the tree, particularly the butt?


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 16, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I'll draw another diagram how I would approach after I finish cutting this load of firewood. Lol
> Can you take a pic of the tree, particularly the butt?


I will try ,but by the time i get home it is usually dark ,think it may be an alder or a cottonwood ,i did not pay attention really on species has leafs though ,just noticed if it breaks off it is going to smash the building ,i can pull on it with a 150 foot cable to break the hinge and pull on it with my bobcat like a yarder cable with a block in another tree if needed .Was wondering if i coos bay one side if it will swing easier with more holding wood on the other .What will happen if i face cut 90 degrees to the lean the way i want it to go ,should fall sideways with a tug and a good hinge ?


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## Jakers (Jan 16, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have a tree with a good 30 degree or so lean i want to swing 30-45 degrees to the left to not hit a barn ,the lean is directly at the barn ,i really do not want to chunk it out ,does this seem doable ?


just use a helicopter...


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## treebilly (Jan 16, 2017)

Sky crane!!!


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 16, 2017)

Only thing i had close to work with was this ,but i sold it .


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## VW Splitter (Jan 16, 2017)

So give me some professional opinions on this fall. It all went well but.... Did I go about it correctly? What could have happened? I've been at it for a while, but just a weekend firewood cutter. This was a big, leaning, hollow sycamore. That's 3 red caution flags already
.
It was good to fall it in the direction of the lean. I did not know how hollow it was. You could see from the bottom looking up
that it was hollow, you just see far up into it. I felt like there was some solid wood all the way around, but how much...? There was no question which direction it was going to fall. I cut a shallow face cut notch hoping to stay in the solid wood. After cutting the notch, I see that it is only solid on the outsides of the notch, It has punky wood in the middle of the notch. I started my bore about 1 1/2' from the notch. my 42" bar wasn't long enough to poke out the other side. I went ahead and cut toward the back of the tree until the bar came out the other side. I then went to the other side, put the bar in the kerf hole and cut that toward the notch, and stopped 4" away to create the hinge on that side. Then went back to the side I started on and cut toward the notch, Stopping 4" away again to finish the hinge.
Now I just cut from inside my bore toward the back of the tree till it popped loose. Then I ran. So what do you think? Correct or not? I never measured it, but I'm guessing 48" tree.


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## Woody912 (Jan 16, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Woody912, on ones that matter like yard trees I tie a rope around the tree and then spray paint the rope. When you remove the rope you will have a straight line to cut to.
> Gypo, I'm still alive, never even had to start a saw today. Was hauling logs home and had enough trouble doing that. I don't have permission to remove any cherry trees so they will be left standing for now. This one is pretty straight all the way to the top.
> View attachment 551150



heck, I'm just a firewood cutter; just ticks me off that I cannot get my cuts level. Looking and critiquing some of my 5 yr old stumps last week that had resprouted. I've done the line thing on some really big ones. Wannabee pro I guess


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## treebilly (Jan 16, 2017)

Worked out well for you. One reason for releasing the bore cut with a trigger is to help with saw snatch. Cutting straight out of the back could get the saw ripped out of your hands.


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## Woody912 (Jan 16, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551185
> 
> Nice looking cherry! Could you cut it anyway with a real low stump, cover the stump with ground debris and pull the top into the neighbours bush and hide the butt log under a load of firewood? Lol


hard maple isn't it


treebilly said:


> Worked out well for you. One reason for releasing the bore cut with a trigger is to help with saw snatch. Cutting straight out of the back could get the saw ripped out of your hands.



saw a 395 take flight in a vid a while back, next time I cut a trigger it will be with an upward cut!!!!! Think it broke the guy's arm, he is or was a regular on here


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## VW Splitter (Jan 16, 2017)

That makes sence. If a big hunk broke below my cut It could grab the bar and go with the tree. That's what I'm looking for, words of wisdom.


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## cantoo (Jan 16, 2017)

Woody, Gypo was commenting on the pic of the cherry that I posted. He's cutting a maple in his.
Gypo, I have a real good gig going with the owner of the proper so don't want to screw that up. Told him I would only take the Poplar, ash and anything that was on the ground or leaning into his fields. I already fell bad enough about getting stuck in the plowed field, have to fix it up with my tiller and cultivator in the spring. He owns a few 1000 acres within 10 miles of me and lots of bush.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 16, 2017)




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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I will try ,but by the time i get home it is usually dark ,think it may be an alder or a cottonwood ,i did not pay attention really on species has leafs though ,just noticed if it breaks off it is going to smash the building ,i can pull on it with a 150 foot cable to break the hinge and pull on it with my bobcat like a yarder cable with a block in another tree if needed .Was wondering if i coos bay one side if it will swing easier with more holding wood on the other .What will happen if i face cut 90 degrees to the lean the way i want it to go ,should fall sideways with a tug and a good hinge ?


 OK a few problems here. Although it's always a good idea to take a leaner off the lean by offsetting the undercut (when you have room in that direction ) because the heavely tentioned "back" naturally gets cut last without 'fancy' safe cut sequences. 45° - 60° is suggested. taking it off the lean 90° WILL cause stall and may snap off the holding wood or rip a section out of the back and down into the roots. I wouldn't go more than 60° in this case. One time I did that, then the roots ripe up, It threw so much sand in my eye I ran away with my eyes shut and hit a tree. I broke about 90% of my... pride and didn't return for 3 yrs.. ok most of the story was true.
That's the problem if you cut realy low to the roots. You will have the strongest sap wood fibers but its easier to tear the back out on a very low cut than a higher cut obviously. About the coos bay cut? Exellent work on those west coast hardwoods btw. I have been meaning to quote them. (I'll get to them) Young utility worker got killed here a few years back trying to 'one cut a 6" alder. Its on Youtube (work safe BC alert) they are definitely no joke. Yes nice triangle cuts on the leaners.

The problem with nipping off the bottom of your holding wood, even as little as an inch when it heavely compressed, is it puts way more tension on the top (tention side) when the weight is unbalanced. Like a down hill lean on a side hill lay.
Too thick of hinge at the top doesn't do anything but freak me out from all the poping and cracking and splitting. That tree can not go over until those back fibers break
Its another catch 22. You need them to support the weight but you can't have then for the tree to advance. I would try to throw a small block with a thin line on it over a branch then pull your rope up and tie a running bowline for a little security.
Cut it up with a "Johnny hold me tight"
It allows the front fibers movement and it will hold on.

Ok I guess that means I'm doing my first diagram.

after you see my art skills...your all will be wondering why I run a saw.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

treebilly said:


> Worked out well for you. One reason for releasing the bore cut with a trigger is to help with saw snatch. Cutting straight out of the back could get the saw ripped out of your hands.


 No matter how you slice it.
Upside outside inside low side balls 4ft deep side, it's a"trigger" friend.







VW Splitter said:


> That makes sence. If a big hunk broke below my cut It could grab the bar and go with the tree. That's what I'm looking for, words of wisdom.


 That's not realy how it happens.
That has as much chance of happening as Barber chairing behind the cut. People have a bit of a misconception because they have heard it and they came up with what you came up with. Maybe when someone said "cut below" it's really slang; for saying don't cut above. We talk weird in these parts (or we cut weird?) It means when you are finishing your back strap on large diameter, a Faller will keep his preferd last cut to be that of the lower channel. Keep in mind as 'you' cut forward we are cutting with our dogs and 3ft of bar, balls in with wood still not cut towards the center. It's not uncommon to bypass the cuts 3" or 4" due to different angles leaving some inside wood or slabs dropping in the centre with the likes of Cedar. Ok now what do you think happens when you bypass in the higher channel? Lol ...I'm laughing at myself.
I cut a lot of short Cedar snags, some pretty big. Sometimes I get sloppy and tired at the end and I get caught in the last slab or you lose track of things because there is so many loose slabs and different hight cuts due to the difficulty of slope
It's hard to control through soft areas inside so,..bypass cutting and ..well having to part with my saw, is something I know a little about. It's all good to release from a bit below *on small diameter too. Above on small diameter you can get caught in the trunk if one is not mindful.

. If it was multiple choice (Best Answer ) in regards to cutting outwards from your bore cut, my main concern would be that you are at a disadvantage when cutting outwards opossed to being further back on smallish Dia/Heavy lean.

*Edit bottom


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## square1 (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551423


This is all wrong! 
The doors are where the window is drawn, you can't see the window from this view, and the weather vane is on the opposite end (nearer the tree). geeeeeesh


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 17, 2017)

This is a VERY good thread.

Carry on.


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## hseII (Jan 17, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> OK a few problems here. Although it's always a good idea to take a leaner off the lean by offsetting the undercut (when you have room in that direction ) because the heavely tentioned "back" naturally gets cut last without 'fancy' safe cut sequences. 45° - 60° is suggested. taking it off the lean 90° WILL cause stall and may snap off the holding wood or rip a section out of the back and down into the roots. I wouldn't go more than 60° in this case. One time I did that, then the roots ripe up, It threw so much sand in my eye I ran away with my eyes shut and hit a tree. I broke about 90% of my... pride and didn't return for 3 yrs.. ok most of the story was true.
> That's the problem if you cut realy low to the roots. You will have the strongest sap wood fibers but its easier to tear the back out on a very low cut than a higher cut obviously. About the coos bay cut? Exellent work on those west coast hardwoods btw. I have been meaning to quote them. (I'll get to them) Young utility worker got killed here a few years back trying to 'one cut a 6" alder. Its on Youtube (work safe BC alert) they are definitely no joke. Yes nice triangle cuts on the leaners.
> 
> The problem with nipping off the bottom of your holding wood, even as little as an inch when it heavely compressed, is it puts way more tension on the top (tention side) when the weight is unbalanced. Like a down hill lean on a side hill lay.
> ...



Obviously the tree Brian mentions is not one to experiment on, but I'd like to try the "steering a tree", in the woods,( read no obstacles, or barns to mash), by step cutting under the face, as @NORTHMAN Logging, you, & others discussed in another thread.

I see that as being something to add to the toolbox, provided judicious care is taken, once the experience is gained. 

In no way would I do something like that in this setting, without knowing it would work based on previous experience.

You & John have provided enough diagrams & discussion to encourage safe practices to get it on the ground, & not the barn.

Thank You. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I'll draw another diagram how I would approach after I finish cutting this load of firewood. Lol
> Can you take a pic of the tree, particularly the butt?


Was pretty dark before work,hard to get an image ,looks like a cottonwood maybe by the bark ,small tree ,maybe 20-24 inches thick down low 


Here is only image i can find in relation to the barn ,but the tree is just to the left of the photo edge on the left ,not a very good view though


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## hseII (Jan 17, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Was pretty dark before work,hard to get an image ,looks like a cottonwood maybe by the bark ,small tree ,maybe 20-24 inches thick down low View attachment 551554
> View attachment 551559
> 
> Here is only image i can find in relation to the barn ,but the tree is just to the left of the photo edge on the left ,not a very good view though View attachment 551562



I missed the whole 30something degrees of lean the first time. 

My question is, how much give before the hinge fails? 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2017)

hseII said:


> I missed the whole 30something degrees of lean the first time.
> 
> My question is, how much give before the hinge fails?
> 
> ...


I have not cut much cottonwood because it is good for nothing ,don't even burn good .I have fell alder about 45 degrees to the lean and they followed the hinge direction with a couple wedges ,I have fell cedar 180 degrees to the lean with wedges and a tug with a choker also ,I have the ht101 polesaw too ,i can get about 16 foot up with it ,i may be able to fell the high parts sideways first,then drop the trunk ,i wont mess with it till summertime if i do remove it though .Lot of ways to skin the cat they say .


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Woody, Gypo was commenting on the pic of the cherry that I posted. He's cutting a maple in his.
> Gypo, I have a real good gig going with the owner of the proper so don't want to screw that up. Told him I would only take the Poplar, ash and anything that was on the ground or leaning into his fields. I already fell bad enough about getting stuck in the plowed field, have to fix it up with my tiller and cultivator in the spring. He owns a few 1000 acres within 10 miles of me and lots of bush.


Sounds like you have a good setup with the farmer. Has the 1000 acres been cut in the last 10 years?
Those fence row trees can be as dangerous as barber chair. The limbs tend to be much larger than trees within the forest and they don't break when the tree hits the ground, causing the tree to roll, sweep and bounce violently sideways, so it's always good to get back from the stump.


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## svk (Jan 17, 2017)

hseII said:


> Obviously the tree Brian mentions is not one to experiment on, but I'd like to try the "steering a tree", in the woods,( read no obstacles, or barns to mash), by step cutting under the face, as @NORTHMAN Logging, you, & others discussed in another thread.


Bitzer did an excellent write up on this maybe a year and a half back, maybe June or so of 15'. Don't recall the name of the thread though.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> .Lot of ways to skin the cat they say .


Yes there is more than one way to skin a cat..
.but I prefer Husqvarna!


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

Speaking of falling, I don't get why this snow hasn't fallen off my outhouse.


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## svk (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551592
> View attachment 551591
> Speaking of falling, I don't get why this snow hasn't fallen off my outhouse.


Looks like you have some good ventilation in there anyhow.


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## SeMoTony (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551423


When you retire go with that artistic talent, won't take much to get ya good.
Right idea seen it tried too low a tie on tree and rope on REAR bumper that lifts rear tires. Two wheel drive back away from tree if there is not a place to tie a pully so the fall isn't in line with puller, just in case the tree is taller than you figured. still left out more that can go bad


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## Woody912 (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551592
> View attachment 551591
> Speaking of falling, I don't get why this snow hasn't fallen off my outhouse.



Have a friend with that same problem. We have suggested Viagra. Worst tree faller I have ever seen in my life, wonder if there is a connection?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Have a friend with that same problem. We have suggested Viagra. Worst tree faller I have ever seen in my life, wonder if there is a connection?


I use to take viagra, but one got stuck in my throat. I ended up with a stiff neck.


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## Ryan'smilling (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I use to take viagra, but one got stuck in my throat. I ended up with a stiff neck.



Did you know that they're giving it to guys in nursing homes now?





Works great, keeps them from rolling out of bed.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have not cut much cottonwood because it is good for nothing ,don't even burn good .I have fell alder about 45 degrees to the lean and they followed the hinge direction with a couple wedges ,I have fell cedar 180 degrees to the lean with wedges and a tug with a choker also ,I have the ht101 polesaw too ,i can get about 16 foot up with it ,i may be able to fell the high parts sideways first,then drop the trunk ,i wont mess with it till summertime if i do remove it though .Lot of ways to skin the cat they say .


 it almost looks like Birch how the light hits the bark in the pic.

Ok here is one for you.. if you are going to wait then kill it today. Girdle the cambium layer, hardwood won't dry quick like softwoods and you won't see any difference in the trunk in that time but you will loose a fair bit of top weight most importantly.
Black Cottonwood grows west of the rockies and about 2/3 the way up BC they cross bread with the Balsam poplar( balsamifera) were they overlap. 80% of Black Cottonwood (trichocarpa) in in WA & BC. 
My experience is 
The Black Cottonwood of the coast have much different properties than that of the Black Cottonwood of the BC interior, they even take on a different appearance at a younger age due to the extended growing season of the coast than that of the 49 parellel north inland. They will Barberchair easy in that 14 -20 inch range but get very strong over 2 ft. as the anual grow rings are tighter as the tree ages. I had a close call last when I fell for property developments last spring in the mainland Valley . I hadn't fell a lot of coast hardwoods and the cotton and birch Barber chair easy but they don't in the north. Funny! I started that day by falling a 4ft fir then a 4.5 cotton and then a 5.5 cotton & I was punching the clock. Easy peasy but the properties of the 18" cotton in that area was where I lacked experience.
Add up, speed cutting when tired and stopping back cut to early.
You can fall for 25 yrs and have inexperience that you could dial in in a day or die in a second not reconizing it.


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## cantoo (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo, likely hasn't been logged for close to 25 years. A German investment company owned most of the land and they logged it severely just before the deal closed to sell the property. The last 3 owners were never interested in the bush, in fact one cash cropper just had an excavator go around the bush and smash everything he could back into the bush. It's a real rocky farm and over the years everyone who picked rocks on it just backed as far into the bush as they could and dumped the rocks in the trees. There is about 30' of rocks all around the bush now. When we owned it we cut it regular, I live on land severed off the original farm. The house I live in and my barn was built with lumber from that bush. I'm just glad I can get all the wood I want this close to home.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I use to take viagra, but one got stuck in my throat. I ended up with a stiff neck.


I love that one, soooo funny.

I guess I'm your biggest fan...lol


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## Woody912 (Jan 17, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> it almost looks like Birch how the light hits the bark in the pic.
> 
> Ok here is one for you.. if you are going to wait then kill it today. Girdle the cambium layer, hardwood won't dry quick like softwoods and you won't see any difference in the trunk in that time but you will loose a fair bit of top weight most importantly.
> Black Cottonwood grows west of the rockies and about 2/3 the way up BC they cross bread with the Balsam poplar( balsamifera) were they overlap. 80% of Black Cottonwood (trichocarpa) in in WA & BC.
> ...



Birch was my thought also, bark is too smooth for cottonwood. To the OP, if a twig will burn like it has oil in it probably birch. Cottonwood will have very bulbous buds on it during the winter.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Birch was my thought also, bark is too smooth for cottonwood. To the OP, if a twig will burn like it has oil in it probably birch. Cottonwood will have very bulbous buds on it during the winter.


 he knows, I'm sure. I was saying it does LOOK LIKE...the way the light hit the bark. Like I was saying, Black Cottonwood looks different from Black Cottonwood up north BC. They are Smooth and can have a green tint to them
when they are under 20' approximately.
The Moss grows on them too, much like the pic.
.you missed the moral of the story if you want to compare a tree from a different area to a tree in your area. Like I said the exact same species takes on a different look from a hundred miles away. Your cottonwood is not of the same species.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> Birch was my thought also, bark is too smooth for cottonwood. To the OP, if a twig will burn like it has oil in it probably birch. Cottonwood will have very bulbous buds on it during the winter.


I will look closer in daylight ,may be birch has different leaves than any of the other trees here.only trees i pay much attention to are fir and cedar to mill into lumber.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I will look closer in daylight ,may be birch has different leaves than any of the other trees here.only trees i pay much attention to are fir and cedar to mill into lumber.


My thoughts were birch too. If so, the leaves will be elliptical with serrated edges.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 17, 2017)

Good thread, I learned some things that should help me stay safer. I rarely cut a healthy tree, most are dead or dying, and lots are leaners - that's just what's left in the woods here now, which are in poor shape. Plus storm damage of course. 

I've been marking my cuts using a hatchet on the bark for a while now - I'm not proud!


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

Not doubt It does look like a Birch ..I can not argue that. Especially with the multi tops. and funny trunk and the appearance of the bark. He hasn't really looked at it he said and just took the pic in the dark
I wouldn't bet against it being a birch.

*Edit
Anyway @Woody912 I didn't see Brian weigh back in but this post was to you.
Young Cottonwood much bigger than that are in fact Smooh still here but certainly don't have multiple tops natually.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Not doubt It does look like a Birch ..I can not argue that. Especially with the multi tops. and funny trunk and the appearance of the bark. He hasn't really looked at it he said and just took the pic in the dark
> I wouldn't bet against it being a birch.
> 
> *Edit
> ...


Cottonwood also has a heavy corrugated corky bark. Lets save out this tree, Brian can tap it in the spring for birch syrup for pancakes. 
That tree has been standing longer than we have and may be standing long after all of are gone.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> This is a VERY good thread.
> 
> Carry on.


 My thoughts exactly. Much more enjoyable here than in the Forestry thread because it's like two magician's entertaining themselves.
"Is that your card"? "Yeah..BIG DEAL"!
"Look!..a Rabbit..."so what!


NSMaple1 said:


> This is a VERY good thread.
> 
> Carry on.





Chris-PA said:


> Good thread, I learned some things that should help me stay safer. I rarely cut a healthy tree, most are dead or dying, and lots are leaners - that's just what's left in the woods here now, which are in poor shape. Plus storm damage of course.
> 
> I've been marking my cuts using a hatchet on the bark for a while now - I'm not proud!



Tring to remember why I quoted you guys?? OH! ..to randomly tell you guys to F* OFF...no..no, that wasn't it. I'm sure some would be happier with that. Oh confession. ..that's it.

I confess this is a great thread.

Look a wabbit!


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Gypo, likely hasn't been logged for close to 25 years. A German investment company owned most of the land and they logged it severely just before the deal closed to sell the property. The last 3 owners were never interested in the bush, in fact one cash cropper just had an excavator go around the bush and smash everything he could back into the bush. It's a real rocky farm and over the years everyone who picked rocks on it just backed as far into the bush as they could and dumped the rocks in the trees. There is about 30' of rocks all around the bush now. When we owned it we cut it regular, I live on land severed off the original farm. The house I live in and my barn was built with lumber from that bush. I'm just glad I can get all the wood I want this close to home.


Too bad that 1000 acres was so mismanaged over the years. Had it been so, every 10 year cut would have yeilded 1,000000 (million dollars)+. But in actuality, once you finished cutting, it wood be time to start all over again as a one man show. It's never too late to manage a bush no matter it's size.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 17, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> My thoughts exactly. Much more enjoyable here than in the Forestry thread because it's like two magician's entertaining themselves.
> "Is that your card"? "Yeah..BIG DEAL"!
> "Look!..a Rabbit..."so what!
> 
> ...


Was thinking the same thing about F&L, even though there are a few good guys over there. Too much fake news and neverhadbeen loggers who are too afraid to ask questions for fear they may reveil their true self.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 17, 2017)

×/×/×//×/×/×/×/× *EDIT* ×/×/×/×/×//×/×

*Not a Barberchair tecneque

Posted in regards to swinger a tree with a forward lean, undercut would be to the side in the intended direction of fall and NOT with the lean.


That's a "Johnny hold me tight" illustration.
The dotted line is your regular undercut.
You are going to make it into a three angle undercut by taking about three really thin cookies out, about the same thickness of the chain. Thin enough you can twist the saw and snap 'em off. The third angle (vertical angle) should be 2" aprox. As you are making the vertical face, DO NOT go deeper than the top cut or you are defeating the purpose. This allows the fibers room to peal and not stretch and break prematurely. However It doesn't ensure the maximum thicknesses of holding wood it will peal with it. Secondly you can bore behind the holding wood to seal the deal when it's crucial, like the wife's car.






●*EDIT top^^^^^^


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 18, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> That a "Johnny hold me tight" illustration.
> The dotted line is your regular undercut.
> You are going to make it into a three angle undercut by taking about three really thin cookies out, about the same thickness of the chain. Thin enough you can twist the saw and snap 'em off. The third angle (vertical angle) should be 2" aprox. As you are making the vertical face, DO NOT go deeper that the top cut or so are defeating the purpose. This allows the fibers room to peal and not stretch and break prematurely. However It doesn't ensure the maximum thicknesses of holding wood it will peal with it. Secondly you can bore behind the holding wood to seal the deal when it's critical like the wife's car.
> 
> View attachment 551779


That knotch looks like it couldn't fail. I'd like to try it.
Good drawing from the Lakeview!


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551790
> 
> That knotch looks like it couldn't fail. I'd like to try it.
> Good drawing from the Lakeview!



That's a great picture John.

Yeah I'm in beautiful "foreskin John" British Columbia lol
(Fort st John)
Guess I'm going on a pipe line as a DTA (Danger Tree assessor through the Band.
Now apperently they want me to cut too.
So far its just a nice hotel free food and $140 a day 'stand by' rate. Why do I want the job even to start....lol
That's a good gig for a tramp like me.

Seriously! They dont call it "Johnny hold me tight" for nutin'
I would always just exaggerate my undercut off set by 15° knowing it would break off and I would lose that 15°.
So when I was taught that cut, I didn't trust it and past the hole By a long shot and hung It up in a tree...haha. It works good. I don't usually need to bore behind the holding wood.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 18, 2017)

How many of you use the sights on the saw to line up cuts ?


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## Tenderfoot (Jan 18, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> How many of you use the sights on the saw to line up cuts ?


I do, I put duct tape on sometimes to help them be even more visible. But I am not an expert.


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## hseII (Jan 18, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> How many of you use the sights on the saw to line up cuts ?



I do, but I'm just a hack. [emoji38][emoji38]


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 18, 2017)

The old timers used to sight in the fall using the handlebar on a wrap saw ,before the factories put the lines across the saws we have today .

See circled areas for the sights i am referring to .


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## rwoods (Jan 18, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> The old timers used to sight in the fall using the handlebar on a wrap saw ,before the factories put the lines across the saws we have today. ...



I am sure that was before eromonics messed up the angles.

Ron


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## Chris-PA (Jan 18, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> That's a "Johnny hold me tight" illustration.
> The dotted line is your regular undercut.
> You are going to make it into a three angle undercut by taking about three really thin cookies out, about the same thickness of the chain. Thin enough you can twist the saw and snap 'em off. The third angle (vertical angle) should be 2" aprox. As you are making the vertical face, DO NOT go deeper than the top cut or you are defeating the purpose. This allows the fibers room to peal and not stretch and break prematurely. However It doesn't ensure the maximum thicknesses of holding wood it will peal with it. Secondly you can bore behind the holding wood to seal the deal when it's critical, like the wife's car.
> 
> View attachment 551779


That's an interesting technique and good drawing. I understand how the longer fiber bend radius should reduce the pressure difference between the compression and tension side, but wanted to make sure this was a technique intended to help with chairing?


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> So give me some professional opinions on this fall. It all went well but.... Did I go about it correctly? What could have happened? I've been at it for a while, but just a weekend firewood cutter. This was a big, leaning, hollow sycamore. That's 3 red caution flags already
> .View attachment 551391
> It was good to fall it in the direction of the lean. I did not know how hollow it was. You could see from the bottom looking up
> that it was hollow, you just see far up into it. I felt like there was some solid wood all the way around, but how much...? There was no question which direction it was going to fall. I cut a shallow face cut notch hoping to stay in the solid wood. After cutting the notch, I see that it is only solid on the outsides of the notch, It has punky wood in the middle of the notch. I started my bore about 1 1/2' from the notch. my 42" bar wasn't long enough to poke out the other side. I went ahead and cut toward the back of the tree until the bar came out the other side. I then went to the other side, put the bar in the kerf hole and cut that toward the notch, and stopped 4" away to create the hinge on that side. Then went back to the side I started on and cut toward the notch, Stopping 4" away again to finish the hinge.View attachment 551400
> Now I just cut from inside my bore toward the back of the tree till it popped loose. Then I ran. So what do you think? Correct or not? I never measured it, but I'm guessing 48" tree.


 Thanks for sharing.
All in all, good job using heavy leaner safe practises. Now the painful part..(just kidding. )
A few things are worth mentioning that a picture doesn't tell me, I will just run a little check list.

Always look at all your options.
taking it off the lean is another mitigater for a heavy front leaner with some side lean and may allow you to
put in a deeper undercut in some cases. It can also cause you trouble too of getting pinched in the low back cut in a case like this tree. Decision may come down to where the rot is, how ballance the forward lean is and how far its Leaning.

By the looks of the lean, shape of the stump and where the rot is the worst I don't think you could have really gotten a deeper undercut anyway. Looks like it was your best option by far. In order to make a decision on a tree with obvious heart rot you want to sound the shell with an axe or bore the back when back straps or wedging is needed.
• was you undercut open enough with no bypass cuts?
•getting away from the tree and not standing there watching it. (You definitely did that, as you said you ran...lol

I'm just curious about the big bar?
It's awfully big for falling In general.

*If you have a low side then make sure you deal with it FULLY! ; after the undercut, Even if it a balanced tree that means right to your holding wood and then out because you are not going back there. Get in the habit of that as those are the highest compressed fibers (pinch points) and you want to deal with them before you weaken the structure further on that side.
Doing that also puts you in an unfavorable position with a now weaker structure.
Think if it was on a steep hill and now you are 4 ft down.
Sometimes you may need to split the undercut and only cut half an undercut on the low side in order to keep the strength in the high side so you can cut the low side botton without getting pinched. THEN cut highside undercut. (For reference )

Deal with low side and then the other.
Don't try to bore through the whole tree on big diameter. You need an adiquate bar even if it was a solid tree. The most important thing is that the undercut is level because that sets up everything especially when workng from one side.
If you are going to eventually bore in behind the undercut then I would suggest basic setting of the saw from the side first so it's level length ways as well width. You shouldn't have to sight through your undercut for reference if your undercut is level so this means tip towards the front.
Once it's started in the cerf then take your hands off it step back and get down to eye level with the bar and see if it's good both ways. If its not good then repeat.
Next extend the shallow cerf to where you want your holding wood when bore and cut back to the highside of the back, (generally) as thats where your saftey trail usually would be (IF possible) repeat on high side back to your meating point.
Keep in mind; we plan the work and we work the plan
• Saftey trail to the postion of your closing point.
• stand at the top and picture yourself in the final position you would like to be cutting in.
•plan for the lower cerf ( IF there is one)
to suite that finally position.
So on a tree like that you could have released it from almost 6 ft away with a 36" bar If you needed. It's better to use it and not need it than need it and not have used it.

I do things a bit different and change it up to suite the situations. I also fall alot where there is only one reachable side.
so I get used to working from the top of the hill even if it means starting from the back down to the low side as far as I can reach then maybe I can cut a step in the stump or just a slot to put my fingers in
and then lean out and cut one hand. I will first cut as much as I can on the low side through the undercut behind the hinge. Then it gives me a better position to test for pinching and shortens my travel. If I feed a stick through there I will be able to see how far I have to cut to as I'm hanging from my fingers. Necessity is Morther of invention.
Let's all use good judgment and stay in our experience levels and work up from there. Two hand on the saw is a really Dam good plan. Start with those basics principles in mind and you will all find your styles from there. Difference situations call for slight different approaches. There is many reasons I would use the back strap
•tree that may be leaning a bit from a damage root system.
• rocky steep ground
• big tree on steep ground/downward fall
• heavy leaners
• saving the wood from fiber pull.

Good job again, nice level cuts. Good decision making skill

Ok maybe it was the painful part...long post


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2017)

Most important piece of advice ever- Look up! 


I'm glad to know what the Johnny hold me tight entails.


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2017)

svk said:


> Bitzer did an excellent write up on this maybe a year and a half back, maybe June or so of 15'. Don't recall the name of the thread though.


What was I talking about? I don't recall. I did an entire thread on advanced cuts on another site with pics and videos. It didn't get as much play as I would have liked for the effort. There wasn't a lot of back discussion. I've thought about doing it here but I really need the time and the energy and this time of year I don't have either. Racing the sun right now to finish a swamp. We need cold.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Most important piece of advice ever- Look up!
> 
> 
> I'm glad to know what the Johnny hold me tight entails.


absolutely! Some steps a pro may need to miss when overcoming a falling difficulty.
But not looking up, is NEVER one of them.

* IDK why I could not figure out I could draw something take a picture of it and post it??? The hamster for asleep at the wheel....for like three years..ouch.

you can obviously play with that and do it on one side and do what you do on the other side when you want to kick it.

Yeah now we are talking code...lol


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> That's an interesting technique and good drawing. I understand how the longer fiber bend radius should reduce the pressure difference between the compression and tension side, but wanted to make sure this was a technique intended to help with chairing?


 Hey Chris, no sorry it was in response to Brian's post with the
forward leaning tree and he wanted to put a side undercut and swing it past the barn. I didn't do the drawing right away and It got posted a page late.
Thanks I will go edit in and make a few notes. That undercut would be offset to the side and not with the lean.


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> absolutely! Some steps a pro may need to miss when overcoming a falling difficulty.
> But not looking up, is NEVER one of them.
> 
> * IDK why I could not figure out I could draw something take a picture of it and post it??? The hamster for asleep at the wheel....for like three years..ouch.
> ...


Well you pretty much covered it so I had to be short and sweet. 

I've bored in behind the hinge before to let the pull wood bend on the stump like that. I like the kerfs you can pop out idea. Sometimes I'll widen my pull corner just by hogging it out. When you need to release a tree from a strap for whatever reason I would think that would be the way to go to pull it around. Now you guys just need to come up with a shorter name for it! It's a mouthful.


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## svk (Jan 18, 2017)

bitzer said:


> What was I talking about? I don't recall. I did an entire thread on advanced cuts on another site with pics and videos. It didn't get as much play as I would have liked for the effort. There wasn't a lot of back discussion. I've thought about doing it here but I really need the time and the energy and this time of year I don't have either. Racing the sun right now to finish a swamp. We need cold.


IIRC you were talking about making a series of progresssive cuts to swing a tree away from its natural lean. I remember it because someone came in and told you that you were FOS and it couldn't be done which then ended up into about 25 side discussions and quarrels. 

I don't recall if it was in its own thread or buried in a discussion thread but I'm pretty sure it's in either the chainsaw or firewood forum. 

I tried to practice this on a small maple once but made the swing cuts too deep and it broke the holding wood and went with the lean. Nothing ventured, nothing lost I guess. 

As I was writing actually think it was a mustang mike thread when he had a problem tree and asked for advice. I'll see if I can dig it up.


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2017)

svk said:


> IIRC you were talking about making a series of progresssive cuts to swing a tree away from its natural lean. I remember it because someone came in and told you that you were FOS and it couldn't be done which then ended up into about 25 side discussions and quarrels.
> 
> I don't recall if it was in its own thread or buried in a discussion thread but I'm pretty sure it's in either the chainsaw or firewood forum.
> 
> ...


I remember now. There was two of them about a year apart. Both time the same guy came in and told me it was not possible. It would have been June/July of 2015 like you thought. I know that because I remember the job I was cutting and I took pics of two different basswood's on two different days. In the year later discussion I made a video showing the kerfs and tree move and he still denied it happening!


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## svk (Jan 18, 2017)

The thread is called "A felling question". It ended up running 50 pages/1000 plus posts so I didn't have time to read it all.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2017)

That other one was "soft Dutchman against the lean" Steve and "Bewildered" kept them in business for like 50 pages...hilarious!
Someone else started the thread posting a video of hot saws 101 (Jack) as the faller.

I didn't see the other one...more of the same, I do Rember the title though.


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2017)

Oh yeah bewildered. That was his name. He only ever showed up when you talked about felling a tree 180 from the lean with just cuts. He should be along any time now.....


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Oh yeah bewildered. That was his name. He only ever showed up when you talked about felling a tree 180 from the lean with just cuts. He should be along any time now.....


 Lol Shhhh
It's going to be like Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Don't say his name three times..lol
I think he found his way to the Politcal sec. He was posting there a few days ago.
That will keep him busy.
I don't think he realy said much of anything after I said he was BS'ing for entertainment in "Forestry pics thread.
about Danger tree's. He gave a couple of my pic's a few likes but, he kind of dropped off the last summer.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Well you pretty much covered it so I had to be short and sweet.
> 
> I've bored in behind the hinge before to let the pull wood bend on the stump like that. I like the kerfs you can pop out idea. Sometimes I'll widen my pull corner just by hogging it out. When you need to release a tree from a strap for whatever reason I would think that would be the way to go to pull it around. Now you guys just need to come up with a shorter name for it! It's a mouthful.


Haha..Funny, we did shorten the name already man, its acually one third of the original....YEAH! we took out all the swear words and now it's shorter than "Soft Dutchman against the lean.
I missed you post BTW.

Yeah Yeah. .boring in behind the holding wood. Ok ..I will give you the whole story.
So the JHMT doesn't include boring behind the holding wood. So I run this by one of the BC Fallers QST's (Qualified Superior Trainer on a gas & Oil Seismic job (they Certify fallers) So we have to do these compantcy test before we can fall on the job. So this guy Ted was an interior faller for like 40 yrs and is just amazing guy to pick his brain about fibers as such.
So I knew it wasn't a reconized cut here so I ask him about it. He said if you bore behind(maybe he said in front) the holding wood and take a piece out of the front (West Coast Swanson) or open face ..err...you get the picture. And it will do 'the same' . So he must be saying in front of the holding wood? I can't see release until you move some 'front' or you get the same effect. Anyway he is bound to the book and offerd me lots in conversations.
I took Teds info and we will call this cut...Oh IDK?? Secure Johnny? Modified Johnny? Johnny on steroids?
IDK.. I'm open for ideas. as far as I know,
I put the combination together. Pedaling
off everybody else is back, Yeah that sounds like me..lol

More tomorrow on comment to your post


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## hseII (Jan 19, 2017)

bitzer said:


> What was I talking about? I don't recall. I did an entire thread on advanced cuts on another site with pics and videos. It didn't get as much play as I would have liked for the effort. There wasn't a lot of back discussion. I've thought about doing it here but I really need the time and the energy and this time of year I don't have either. Racing the sun right now to finish a swamp. We need cold.



Link please. 

Edit:

That was here on AS.

No need. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

svk said:


> The thread is called "A felling question". It ended up running 50 pages/1000 plus posts so I didn't have time to read it all.


Wasn't I one of the detractors on that thread? Lol
I think a 180 can be accomplished, but it depends upon a lot of factors especially how much the tree is leaning.
Let's pick up the fight where we left off! Lol
Where's that lil ******* @westcoaster90 ? Lol


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## hseII (Jan 19, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I remember now. There was two of them about a year apart. Both time the same guy came in and told me it was not possible. It would have been June/July of 2015 like you thought. I know that because I remember the job I was cutting and I took pics of two different basswood's on two different days. In the year later discussion I made a video showing the kerfs and tree move and he still denied it happening!



Ignorance & Inability are Bliss. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## hseII (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Wasn't I one of the detractors on that thread? Lol
> I think a 180 can be accomplished, but it depends upon a lot of factors especially how much the tree is leaning.
> Let's pick up the fight where we left off! Lol
> Where's that lil ******* @westcoaster90 ? Lol



179 degrees is NOT 180!! 

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

As opposed to trying to fall a tree against it's lean just for the sake of doing so, sometimes it's safer and quicker to deliberately hang up the tree into another close by tree of similar or lerger size.
However, this poses it's own dangers. The hung up tree can get limb bound in the standing tree and when pulled off with a skidder or tractor it can pull over the standing tree toward the operator.
It's not so much how to fall a tree against it's lean, but rather why?


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 552159
> As opposed to trying to fall a tree against it's lean just for the sake of doing so, sometimes it's safer and quicker to deliberately hang up the tree into another close by tree of similar or lerger size.
> However, this poses it's own dangers. The hung up tree can get limb bound in the standing tree and when pulled off with a skidder or tractor it can pull over the standing tree toward the operator.
> It's not so much how to fall a tree against it's lean, but rather why?


Or if you have to take the tree that it's leaned into it will chair. I've had that happen. Knew it was coming though. Had a large branch in the canopy that caught the falling tree and only option was to cut the one holding it. No only did it have all that canopy weight from the other tree but it had a lot of torque in the trunk because of that branch it was hung into. I've never quite seen a chair like it. Knowing when to make sure the holding wood needs to be released is a valuable lesson. It probably would have rolled out of that branch if I didnt left as much holding wood.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

Are there any mathemagicians out there?
I'd like to know the formula for calculating the tilt of the crown if a tree was lifted 1" with wedges? Given that said tree was 80' in height.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 19, 2017)

I bit into the side of my string cheese once and it chaired big time .


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## Philbert (Jan 19, 2017)

svk said:


> The thread is called "A felling question". It ended up running 50 pages/1000 plus posts so I didn't have time to read it all.


http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/a-felling-question.280255/

Philbert


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Are there any mathemagicians out there?
> I'd like to know the formula for calculating the tilt of the crown if a tree was lifted 1" with wedges? Given that said tree was 80' in height.


Pythagorean theorem

What's the diameter of the tree?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Pythagorean theorem
> 
> What's the diameter of the tree?


20" hypotheticaly, but didn't know that dia figured into the equation,but now see how it is


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> 20" hypotheticaly, but didn't know that dia figured into the equation.





Diameter matters as it dictates how much leverage that 1" wedge is going to create.


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> 20" hypotheticaly, but didn't know that dia figured into the equation,but now see how it is


Yes you did, in practice but not on paper. I can prove you knew it. Does a one inch wedge move a small diameter tree more or less than a larger diameter tree? What does your experience tell you?


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Yes you did, in practice but not on paper. I can prove you knew it. Does a one inch wedge move a small diameter tree more or less than a larger diameter tree? What does your experience tell you?


 Good stuff Marshy.
BC Fallers have a little about it with a diagram example. I believe it was based on 100 ft tree on a 5° lift. Which would be the thickness of a 10" k&h I do believe. They are pretty sleek wedges, under an 1"
I remember it said it would move 5ft.
My reaction was the same "what's diameter get to do with it" I'm pretty sure it wasn’t mentioned.
You are right, I had to think about it.
It's actually the distance from the lift to the hinge. *EDIT* I see you have that on your diagram.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Yes you did, in practice but not on paper. I can prove you knew it. Does a one inch wedge move a small diameter tree more or less than a larger diameter tree? What does your experience tell you?


Math genius!
So the answer is 4'7.6" or 4.76 degrees?
Noboby ever said I was the brightest bulb on the tree! Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 19, 2017)

I always though wedges were to get the tree 90 degrees to the stump ?


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Math genius!
> So the answer is 4'7.6" or 4.76 degrees?
> Noboby ever said I was the brightest bulb on the tree! Lol


The answer was x=6.66 ft of crown movement.
By inserting the wedge it tipped the trunk 4.76 degrees.

I first solved for the degrees.
In order to do that you need to know the length of your fulcrum which is 2/3's the diameter of the tree (assuming your face cut is 1/3 the depth of the tree).
Therefore: 2/3 x 20" = 13.2" but I use 12" because I didn't wait for your reply, I just chose a reasonable number.

Using Trigonometry you can calculate the degrees of a 12" fulcrum lifted 1" (4.76 degrees)
S.O.H.C.A.H.T.O.A - *S*ome *O*ld *H*ippie *C*aught *A*nother *H*ippie* T*ripping *O*n *A*cid

Sin(angle) = Opposite/Hypotenuse
Cos(angle) = Adjacent/Hypotenuse
Tan(angle) = Opposite/Hypotenuse

In order to solve for the angle you need the inverse function when the opposite/adjacent/hypotenuse is known.

And since the trunk is fixed to the fulcrum we know they move the same angle so you can use the same equation to solve for "X" (Opposite) knowing the trees height is 80' (Adjacent).


----------



## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I always though wedges were to get the tree 90 degrees to the stump ?


That's what gravity is for.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

Little trees that set back can be decieving and hard to wedge because you are wedging so close to the hinge.
shallower depths on trees that are to be wedged. 25% target


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Little trees that set back can be decieving and hard to wedge because you are wedging so close to the hinge.
> shallow depths on trees that are to be wedged. 25% target


My question was more simple than that.
Smaller diameter tree will have a short folcrum and the trunk will tip more verse a larger diameter tree with a longer fulcrum.


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## Philbert (Jan 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Smaller diameter tree will have a short folcrum and the trunk will tip more verse a larger diameter tree with a longer fulcrum.



Smaller diameter tree might not let the full 1 inch height of the wedge in. If you use a shorter wedge, with a 1 inch height, it would have a steeper angle / pitch.

If you drive the wedge in deeper than the edge of the bark (larger diameter tree), the 'virtual height' of the wedge would effectively be larger than 1 inch. 

It is only the angle that the trunk is lifted that matters. 

Philbert


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Smaller diameter tree might not let the full 1 inch height of the wedge in. If you use a shorter wedge, with a 1 inch height, it would have a steeper angle / pitch.
> 
> Philbert


All true but irrelevant to how much the crown moves as long as the same lift is achieved.


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## Philbert (Jan 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> All true but irrelevant to how much the crown moves as long as the same lift is achieved.


Not correct. Different angles. Angles also depend on location of the hinge / pivot / fulcrum point.

This is the height of the triangle, relative to the base. 

Philbert


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Not correct. Different angles. Angles also depend on location of the hinge / pivot / fulcrum point.
> 
> This is the height of the triangle, relative to the base.
> 
> Philbert



You got me before the edit made through. Refresh and see the other half of my statement. We are saying the same thing


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

I think it was Husqvarna that sold this pneumatic wedge that worked off the exhaust of the saw. Wonder how that worked?
So for round figures an 80' tree can offset the crown 13' with a two inch wedge lift or approx 10 degrees?
Of coarse this is assuming there is no dutchman and the backcut isn't below the undercut.


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I think it was Husqvarna that sold this pneumatic wedge that worked off the exhaust of the saw. Wonder how that worked?
> So for round figures an 80' tree can offset the crown 13' with a two inch wedge lift or approx 10 degrees?
> Of coarse this is assuming there is no dutchman and the backcut isn't below the undercut.


Yeah, as long as your folcrum is 12", tree is 80', and you get all the lift from your wedge.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> All true but irrelevant to how much the crown moves as long as the same lift is achieved.


So you agree with this ? The lift will very from the distances from the hinge.
The same lift will not be achieved, the shorter the distance the harder the lift and the greator the movement as the wedge penatrates.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

A great example of this is when you free up a wedge from the back and the tree needs a little more that can't be achieved from the back so you stick it close to the hinge on the side. It puts thing into perspective. Harder to do but a quicker lift. The way it was taught to me many years back was to think about a door. They have hinges, now think about that door horizontal on hinges. Come up to the front and middle of it, it's pretty easy to lift with two fingers. Now go to the bottom of the side closesed to the hinge and lift with two fingers. You can do it but it's not so easy.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Smaller diameter tree might not let the full 1 inch height of the wedge in. If you use a shorter wedge, with a 1 inch height, it would have a steeper angle / pitch.
> 
> If you drive the wedge in deeper than the edge of the bark (larger diameter tree), the 'virtual height' of the wedge would effectively be larger than 1 inch.
> 
> ...





Marshy said:


> All true but irrelevant to how much the crown moves as long as the same lift is achieved.


RIGHT In relation to a steeper wedge.
as long as the lifting distance to the hinge is that of the same.
Roger!


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Smaller diameter tree might not let the full 1 inch height of the wedge in. If you use a shorter wedge, with a 1 inch height, it would have a steeper angle / pitch.
> 
> If you drive the wedge in deeper than the edge of the bark (larger diameter tree), the 'virtual height' of the wedge would effectively be larger than 1 inch.
> 
> ...


 Philbert Im a fan of your work and your knowledge, much respect for your pashion. A bit all over the map on this one. Points are made but the dots aren't conecting for me.


I think this is what you are trying to say?

Its only the position of the wedge that matters, because that alters the distance from the hinge. Grade matters in lift, the flater the grade the easiest the lift, the longer the distance from wedging point to hinge, the easier the lift.
If you got a hard lift you want a shallow azz undercut & lots of sleek 10 k&h wedges. Both of them slow the lift (make the lift easier) greater wedge angles just make it hard, an inch is an inch and as long as the distance from the wedge and hinge is of equal distance then a greater angle will either fail or tip the tree faster with more energy applyed.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 19, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> A great example of this is when you free up a wedge from the back and the tree needs a little more that can't be achieved from the back so you stick it close to the hinge on the side. It puts thing into perspective. Harder to do but a quicker lift. The way it was taught to me many years back was to think about a door. They have hinges, now think about that door horizontal on hinges. Come up to the front and middle of it, it's pretty easy to lift with two fingers. Now go to the bottom of the side closesed to the hinge and lift with two fingers. You can do it but it's not so easy.


Jamie, your cupboard door is a good analogy how a Dutchman effects the fall.
Open a cupboard door and slide a wedge between the two hinges, then slap or force the door closed. Nothing but damage. Don't try this when the GF is around. Lol


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Jamie, your cupboard door is a good analogy how a Dutchman effects the fall.
> Open a cupboard door and slide a wedge between the two hinges, then slap or force the door closed. Nothing but damage. Don't try this when the GF is around. Lol


 Haha. John you crack me up man.

To late, I had to try it.
Now I'm dead in the morning ..no I with she was here....no I mean I wish she was my GF...haha


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 20, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Haha. John you crack me up man.
> 
> To late, I had to try it.
> Now I'm dead in the morning ..no I with she was here....no I mean I wish she was my GF...haha


 Hey John! Phuck all that Trig and tangant angles.

Let's simplefy it how a faller may.
I believe a 10" K&H is about 5° and many 8" that are a little thicker (that you may use?)are about 8° I believe.
You will tip 110 ft tree at 10° under most circumstances. I hold two K&H 10" together reppresenting 10°
Holding them plumb, linning up the lean,
and when it's close? I say 
"phuck It! better call a profession....haha..
Thin wedge, shallow undercut and line your wedges up overhead, (not in that particular order.)
Thing is the trees max at about the same in areas.
It's all about the heat the angle and the mass...you still following me John?


The heat of the meat the angle of the dangle and the mass of the ass


For the record, I loved today's lesson,
I venture into tangant angles and such but its Hard to retain with my dyslexia unfortunately. It gets my attention, I'm very interested good stuff! You know I wasn't very interested in english. Not that it would matter


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 20, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Philbert Im a fan of your work and your knowledge, much respect for your pashion. A bit all over the map on this one. Points are made but the dots aren't conecting for me.
> 
> 
> I think this is what you are trying to say?
> ...



I think Phil was driving his wedge in from the back, toward the hinge - so the further you drive that 1" in past the bark, the more you lift and an inch isn't an inch anymore. Damn hard to hit that 1" with the backside of your axe though, once it gets in that little slotty space and the tree fights the wedge more - think I been there a time or two.


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## Marshy (Jan 20, 2017)

I don't want to bore any of you to death with the mathematics, the take away is the concept of how the fulcrum length (distance from hinge to back cut) affects the amount of lift and subsequent crown movement generated. Yes there are a million different variable that could be covered about wedge taper and stuff but that wasn't the original question. I would be happy to discuss it (I'll leave it up to your guys) but its not really related to barber chair and don't want to digress further. I don't expect anyone to be doing computation in the field before falling a tree. Even I'm practical enough to know that's silly. As you gain experience working in the field things just become natural and you know the limitations of things and done need anything written on paper to validate your gut feeling. For the folks that don't have that experience having a understanding of things like how the fulcrum length effects the amount the tree will tip might help them double think a cut and make sure they have a two wedges on hand to stack them vice having to run back to the truck to get another wedge.

So in general;
A longer fulcrum length (distance the wedge is away from the hinge), the less lift angle is generated and less crown movement is generated, all other things being equal.

Exactly like NSMaple1 is saying, you pounded in a 1" wedge and it wasn't enough to tip the tree so what do you do? Pound that SOB until it disappears, then either get a larger wedge or stack the two extra your are hopefully carrying.



Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 552323


Pre-split firewood, nice.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I don't want to bore any of you to death with the mathematics, the take away is the concept of how the fulcrum length (distance from hinge to back cut) affects the amount of lift and subsequent crown movement generated. Yes there are a million different variable that could be covered about wedge taper and stuff but that wasn't the original question. I would be happy to discuss it (I'll leave it up to your guys) but its not really related to barber chair and don't want to digress further. I don't expect anyone to be doing computation in the field before falling a tree. Even I'm practical enough to know that's silly. As you gain experience working in the field things just become natural and you know the limitations of things and done need anything written on paper to validate your gut feeling. For the folks that don't have that experience having a understanding of things like how the fulcrum length effects the amount the tree will tip might help them double think a cut and make sure they have a two wedges on hand to stack them vice having to run back to the truck to get another wedge.
> 
> So in general;
> A longer fulcrum length (distance the wedge is away from the hinge), the less lift angle is generated and less crown movement is generated, all other things being equal.
> ...


Marshy, it's interesting how math and forestry go hand in hand as we are always measuring wood in some way, shape or form. 
I use to know the formula, but how many four foot sheets of veneer would you get from an 8' log 24" in dia. if the sheets were cut 1/80" rotary style down to a 4" core?


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## Marshy (Jan 20, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Marshy, it's interesting how math and forestry go hand in hand as we are always measuring wood in some way, shape or form.
> I use to know the formula, but how many four foot sheets of veneer would you get from an 8' log 24" in dia. if the sheets were cut 1/80" rotary style down to a 4" core?


I would use volume of a cylinder to figure it out.
Volume= π x radius^2 x height
Use inches since the sheet thickness is a fraction of an inch.

V= 3.14 x 12^2 x (96)
V_total= 43,429.38 cu in

Then subtract the core volume.
V=3.14 x 2^2 x 96
V_core= 1,206.37 cu in

Available Veneer = V_total - V_core
= 42,223.01 cu in

Then divide the available Veneer volume by the volume of the sheet.

V_sheet= 48" x 96" x (1/80)"
V_sheet = 57.6 cu in

Available Veneer / V_sheet = # of sheets
42,223.01 / 57.6 = 733.03 sheet.


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## hseII (Jan 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I would use volume of a cylinder to figure it out.
> Volume= π x radius^2 x height
> Use inches since the sheet thickness is a fraction of an inch.
> 
> ...



I've often thought you were an Engineer, but after this post, I went & looked, & Bamm!! You Are. 

Awesome. 


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Marshy (Jan 20, 2017)

hseII said:


> I've often thought you were an Engineer, but after this post, I went & looked, & Bamm!! You Are.
> 
> Awesome.
> 
> ...


LOL I'll take that as a compliment. It's like a treat when I'm cutting wood and trying to visualize the forces at play. Knowing fibers in tension vs compression can save a lot of time and a lot of headaches and potential injury.


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## Philbert (Jan 20, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Philbert Im a fan of your work and your knowledge, much respect for your pashion. A bit all over the map on this one. Points are made but the dots aren't conecting for me.


We were getting too much into trigonometry, when we probably could have stayed with geometry.

I drew tree sections without a hinge to keep it simpler (numbered for discussion). We are talking about lift _height_, and also lift _angle_.

Top row shows 3 different diameter trees (say 6", 12", and 24") with a constant wedge (say 12" long and 1" high). The lift *height* is determined by how far the wedge is driven into the tree. There is a practical limit, based on the diameter of the tree, relative to the size of the wedge.

Second row shows wedging to a constant height; due to different diameters, different angles of wedges are required, and different trunk and crown *angles* result.



Was not disagreeing with your math, but urging caution at generalizing that 'a 1" wedge with tilt a crown X degrees'.

Philbert


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## hseII (Jan 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> LOL I'll take that as a compliment. It's like a treat when I'm cutting wood and trying to visualize the forces at play. Knowing fibers in tension vs compression can save a lot of time and a lot of headaches and potential injury.



It was meant as one, and As a Millwright, cause Engineers need Heroes too. [emoji6]


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Marshy (Jan 20, 2017)

hseII said:


> It was meant as one, and As a Millwright, cause Engineers need Heroes too. [emoji6]
> 
> 
> 2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


FFS, you're not "one of those" are you?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 20, 2017)

Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge.
Although a loss of wood fibre, the tree can be refallen.
Edit: undercuts, not uncuts. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 552517
> Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge.
> Although a loss of wood fibre, the tree can be refallen.
> Edit: undercuts, not uncuts. Lol




Getting cedar 180 off the lean is tough without breaking the hinge ,the few i have tried anyways ,the wood is so soft ,the fibers collapse around the wedges ,


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## bitzer (Jan 20, 2017)

I just use a jack when I need to lift over 2". What's even more fun to think about is the amount of force being created when the wind blows back onto your wedges after the cut has already opened up and then sits back again.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 20, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I just use a jack when I need to lift over 2". What's even more fun to think about is the amount of force being created when the wind blows back onto your wedges after the cut has already opened up and then sits back again.


Does the tree ever break above the jacking point from the force ?Like splinter the back out ?


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## Philbert (Jan 20, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 552517
> Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge. . . .the tree can be refallen.


Interesting idea. 

Philbert


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## treebilly (Jan 20, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Getting cedar 180 off the lean is tough without breaking the hinge ,the few i have tried anyways ,the wood is so soft ,the fibers collapse around the wedges ,



That means you need to use more wedges.


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## VW Splitter (Jan 20, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> I'm just curious about the big bar?
> It's awfully big for falling In general.
> 
> 
> I am learning a lot from the rambling in this thread. Never really thought about cutting on the downhill side first. and all kinds of info here on leaning trees. The big bar question. Is it not always better to have a bar that will reach thru the tree instead of cutting down both sides to get the job done? I know a logger sometimes only has what he can carry into the woods. Most always my truck, and assortment of saws, is only as far away, as the tree is tall, that I am about to cut down.


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## SeMoTony (Jan 20, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 552517
> Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge.
> Although a loss of wood fibre, the tree can be refallen.
> Edit: undercuts, not uncuts. Lol


See what I told ya before. "With practice you will improve as arteest" . happening already; start signing them!


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Yes you did, in practice but not on paper. I can prove you knew it. Does a one inch wedge move a small diameter tree more or less than a larger diameter tree? What does your experience tell you?





Westboastfaller said:


> Good stuff Marshy.
> BC Fallers have a little about it with a diagram example. I believe it was based on 100 ft tree on a 5° lift. Which would be the thickness of a 10" k&h I do believe. They are pretty sleek wedges, under an 1"
> I remember it said it would move 5ft.
> My reaction was the same "what's diameter get to do with it" I'm pretty sure it wasn’t mentioned.
> ...





Philbert said:


> We were getting too much into trigonometry, when we probably could have stayed with geometry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm not sure why you would say that. I supose it was based on my post above I pulled forward. The post you quoted in its full form is very factual clear and thorough and covers even more and sums it up in one paragraph. Thats the laws of wedging 101 in its entirety or not?Unfortunately you chopped that part.


Marshy brings up a really good point in his reply to John in his above post that I brought forward. It certainly shed some light on it for me in regards to prehaps not reconizing something on paper to be wrong (in this case if memory serves me right) This is in regards to my post above and my initial thoughts when Marshy asked for Diameter of the tree in the equation. It was about an example BC Forest Saftey Council (BCFSC)
Have somewhere in their literature and maybe I have read it a few times in the last 12 yrs since certifications came in.
I'm quoting that and am going on memory. It's not my math and I believe it to be a very vague example when I wrote the post. I BELIEVE their example TO BE WEAK and I don't agree with it. It has been well documented in my posts. It's not something I would have thought about had Marshy not asked for the diameter.
As soon as he asked for diameter I knew it was based on the wedging point to the hinge. Trig, Geometry, physics?
How do we learn? I'm physical, verbal (through reading only) and solitaire) I am not a social, logical, visual or aural learner therefore diagrams don't work for me anyway. I wonder what % of people it's effective on? or is it a lot move beneficial to write the laws in one paragraph much like I did?
It would be interesting to do a poll on here? Have you ever done anything on here or anywhere considering you do teach/mentor?


In order to excel in the job I have had to learn how to highten my sense of feel like someone visually impaired. It's a lot less visual than you would ever think in most cases. I learn through physics. The application of force and the energy expelled. Ultimately, I learnt through 'pain'. There are those that teach and those that do,
I'm a practitioner, my teaching is true finders not logic, its not written on the lines, it lives between the lines. I may not see right and wong on paper, I feel right and wrong therefore I know right and wrong.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 20, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 552517
> Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge.
> Although a loss of wood fibre, the tree can be refallen.
> Edit: undercuts, not uncuts. Lol


You can do it without the undercut when overcomming a falling difficulty on a back lean when you need a little more. I may cut a little over half the tree max. Sometimes it takes three levels of wedging. If you do use multiple undercuts then you have to make sure the next higher undercut is deeper than the lower one or it will split to the bottom one once it passes the centre of gravity (COG) and you will lose the tree every time.


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## hseII (Jan 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> FFS, you're not "one of those" are you?



I Are.


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


----------



## hseII (Jan 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> FFS, you're not "one of those" are you?



Please continue to participate in this thread: Jon & others know what works, & you & Philbert are explaining why it works with math. 

Iron Sharpens Iron

Thank You.


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


----------



## Chris-PA (Jan 20, 2017)

I thought a lot about those angles this summer when I dropped a solid but dead 30" ash. I misjudged the center of mass since it had lost so much of the crown - I thought I could drop it over into the woods rather than into the field so I wouldn't have to clean up all the junk (what's left of the crown of ashes killed by ash yellows just explode on impact). 

So it sat back heavy on my wedges, and eventually I used and mostly destroyed every wedge I had, including some nice wooden ones. 

In the end I had bored out the face and there was only holding wood on the sides so there wasn't anything more a saw could do, so I used the splitting wedges. It didn't fall until I lifted it over 2", and I had to drive those in with a sledge. I don't think I could have swung it another time. Did some back damage too, but then I'm old. 

A major part of the problem was that the upper and outer mass of the crown was gone, so as I swung the top over it just didn't pull the trunk over. 

There's big stacks of it on my porch and it will keep me warm later this winter.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 20, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> I thought a lot about those angles this summer when I dropped a solid but dead 30" ash. I misjudged the center of mass since it had lost so much of the crown - I thought I could drop it over into the woods rather than into the field so I wouldn't have to clean up all the junk (what's left of the crown of ashes killed by ash yellows just explode on impact).
> 
> So it sat back heavy on my wedges, and eventually I used and mostly destroyed every wedge I had, including some nice wooden ones.
> 
> ...


 You get a "like for the story anyway Chris. I don't think so.
If it looks like its leaning forward a fair bit (passing COG) and isn't going over then it was too much holding wood providing it's not limb tied that you don't realize. If it was top heavy then you may not have gotten that far. Could there have been a branch that was interfering? Maybe you missed a peice somewhere in the back cut?
IDK, you would see that on the stump.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 20, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> You get a "like for the story anyway Chris. I don't think so.
> If it looks like its leaning forward a fair bit (passing COG) and isn't going over then it was too much holding wood providing it's not limb tied that you don't realize. If it was top heavy then you may not have gotten that far. Could there have been a branch it was interfering? or you miss a peice somewhere in the back cut?
> IDK, you would see that on the stump.


Nah, it was clear of everything and there was very little holding it by then. I think it was just wishful thinking making me misjudge the lean. I mean the damn thing grew near the edge of a field, maybe it's leaning into the woods? Lol, yeah right. 

So I just had to lift it over, but there was a tremendous amount of force on the wedges.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 20, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Nah, it was clear of everything and there was very little holding it by then. I think it was just wishful thinking making me misjudge the lean. I mean the damn thing grew near the edge of a field, maybe it's leaning into the woods? Lol, yeah right.
> 
> So I just had to lift it over, but there was a tremendous amount of force on the wedges.


 Yes force on the wedge,
Heavy top weight is only going to help you once passed the COG, right? BUT considering your situation, A lighter top was helpful. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here Chris.

Sorry *Edit


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 21, 2017)

An old indian friend of mine that used to log told me to hold my axe like a plumb bob out in front of me and i will see the lean better , It actually works .I have used it a few times now.


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## Philbert (Jan 21, 2017)

Learned that in Boy Scouts . . .

Philbert


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> An old indian friend of mine that used to log told me to hold my axe like a plumb bob out in front of me and i will see the lean better , It actually works .I have used it a few times now.


 No no don't hold it like a plump bob, use it for a plump bob. 
 The fist time I went out falling on the coast in '97 and my first official training up to then. I saw him do that. Look at the way the legs are going on the tree and that will often tell the story. Some areas my have a natural 'east' pull and hill pull even know they may not appear that way


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## square1 (Jan 21, 2017)

The amount of* good* info in the last three pages here is amazing. Some of the tree felling advice I see from self professed experts on the interwebs scares me. Thanks.


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## hseII (Jan 21, 2017)

square1 said:


> The amount of* good* info in the last three pages here is amazing. Some of the tree felling advice I see from self professed experts on the interwebs scares me. Thanks.



I Agree Completely.


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> An old indian friend of mine that used to log told me to hold my axe like a plumb bob out in front of me and i will see the lean better , It actually works .I have used it a few times now.


Douglas Dent agrees with this method and shows using the axe and a plumb bob. I suppose a pocket watch on a chain would work great as well if anyone still carries one. 



Also, when determining the lean pick two points to view the tree that are 90 degrees from eachother.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 21, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Yes force on the wedge,
> Heavy top weight is only going to help you once passed the COG, right? BUT considering your situation, A lighter top was helpful. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here Chris.
> 
> Sorry *Edit


I don't have any good pictures of it, but this shows what's left of the crown from the field:



This one is from the same angle. I was standing where it actually wanted to go (which was where my back cut was):



Most of the mass is in the fat trunk, and it's not very high, so as you wedge open the cut the center of mass does not move as far laterally for each inch as it would on some 80' tree. But the weight is still there, pushing down on the wedge.

Lots of good wood in it:


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 21, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> I don't have any good pictures of it, but this shows what's left of the crown from the field:
> View attachment 552678
> 
> 
> ...


Those dead crowns can be very dangerous.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 21, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Those dead crowns can be very dangerous.



Yeah, I never forget that. Dead ashes with punky crowns (from ash yellows) are most of what I drop. I prefer to buck them after they fall but that isn't always possible. The woods here are in bad shape.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> I don't have any good pictures of it, but this shows what's left of the crown from the field:
> View attachment 552678
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good man. That's definitely heavy wood. You did what you had to do by leaving a post on each side to overcome a falling difficulty. Verical holding wood can definitely be an aggravator (too high of anti-kickback step) Beavertailin' the holding wood as you did would help that a lot if that ever is the case. Shallow undercut in DEPTH is going to help and wedging from the furthest point from the hinge at the back.
Invest in some good wedges chris, I like the K&H 10" for heavy lifting and I chase with the 12" or use it to free my 10" so I can stack if needed. Three 10" K&H wedges in the back alternating your hits...it would be like butter with that wedge melter you were using.
Don't forget to also cut a bit and max them all out again when you know it could be a hard lift or you are giving up an advantage. Repeat...cut...wedge...cut...wedge
The more fibers you cut the harder o
It sits down.
You used all wooden wedges?
Look at the difference in the coefficient of friction. Likely they were to steep as well?
There is no substitute for the right tool.

As far as the crown goes.
If it was branch heavy in the direction of fall then the extended branch weigh would have counterbalanced the tree some unless its a a very tall tree and an extreme lean then It just becomes more extended weigh against you. .. In this case it may be more of the opposite, due to its location. It wasn't in full crown compatition but the light is restricted on that side.
When another tree falls on a tree or a strong wind uproots the root mat and it corrects itself (sweeper) then this may be an exeption IF they were forced as sapling ( some occasions medium trees) opposite to their natural pull. You may have a huge trunk with a big trunk sweep one way and 150 more feet slight lean the other way. I would usually go with the extended weigh that goes way up there to decide where the lean is.


Hold a 3 1/2 lb axe by the head, now straight arm it. Your wrist is the hinge. Now turn the axe around and staight arm it. Same weigh and a lot heavier. The least travel the bulk of the mass has to go back to COG the easier it is. Granted, with each penatration of the wedge there will be more top movement but a long travel needs to be achieved. More force would be needed to penatrate the wedge due to more offset weight if it was distributed along 80ft at the same degree.

I can give you my tecneques but I'm not there to give you my wedges friend.
You NEED to have 'em man.


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## VW Splitter (Jan 21, 2017)

Here is a video of the big burnt hollow leaning tree with very little trunk left I cut in Gatlinburg TN after the fire storm. I wish I had got more pictures of it before I cut it, you fellows could have seen more to help give better feed back on it. I posted a couple of pictures of it in post#64 of this thread.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2017)

Can anyone tell me what a cat face is?


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## Philbert (Jan 21, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Can anyone tell me what a cat face is?


I recall a member with that name!
_(cat-face timber was last seen Dec 28, 2015)_

Philbert


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Can anyone tell me what a cat face is?



It looks like a C*nt, and if you're not quite sure what a c*nt looks like then ask you falling parter


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 21, 2017)

A cat face is is an irregularity in the butt log usually cause by rot or disease which looks like a face, usually rendering the log as low grade.
You need to wear a pussycat hat though to fall it.


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## rwoods (Jan 21, 2017)

Where I was raised in central Florida, catface timber was pine that had been defaced to produce turpentine. 

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 21, 2017)

When cut for timber the defaced butts, or catface, was cut off and left. Made super hot firewood. Stumps were sometimes processed for a gun powder component.

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 21, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> It looks like a C*nt, and if you not quite sure what a c*nt looks like then ask you falling parter


I saw one of those once, so I ran for a bandaid.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2017)

"Catface"
Yeah they can be caused by Pathogens, insects, fire, accidentally, or modified for Resins Or CMT's (Culturally Modified Trees) as we see here in the red cedar for first nation canoe's that are generally not to be cut. They will have tags on them. By Alaska (north coast BC) we log them but I have to cut a cookie off it and bag them and they bring it up when they are yarding logs. They send the cookie to a lab in Vancouver. ..and thats logging

Its an old wound were the bark is
removed and eventually rots out the heart


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2017)

D Dents book mentioned it but didn't say what it was. Thanks.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> No no don't hold it like a plump bob, use it for a plump bob.
> The fist time I went out falling on the coast in '97 and my first official training up to then. I saw him do that. Look at the way the legs are going on the tree and that will often tell the story. Some areas my have a natural 'east' pull and hill pull even know they may not appear that way


A lot of cedar here has a natural east pull ,so i let them go east now after i figured that out.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Shallow undercut in DEPTH is going to help and wedging from the furthest point from the hinge at the back.


Yeah, this was a deeper face cut than needed, but then I was not expecting to have to wedge it so much. I have a bad habit of making face cuts a bit deeper than needed, which I'm trying to break.



Westboastfaller said:


> Invest in some good wedges chris, I like the K&H 10" for heavy lifting and I chase with the 12" or use it to free my 10" so I can stack if needed. Three 10" K&H wedges in the back alternating your hits...it would be like butter with that wedge melter you were using.





Westboastfaller said:


> You used all wooden wedges?


LOL, those were just the backups that I had made from some white oak a few years back - but it was all I had left. And I didn't start off with the sledge either. I used the Stihl wedges (I get them locally) and a 2-1/2lb "boy's axe" that usually does the job well (as it's just a little heavier and longer than a hatchet). But the force on the wedges was huge and in trying to open the cut they all got destroyed. The sledge came out when I got the splitting wedges out - I had to swing it with all I had to drive them in at all. 

I will be looking into better wedges, and this reminds me that I have not done that yet.


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## hseII (Jan 22, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Yeah, this was a deeper face cut than needed, but then I was not expecting to have to wedge it so much. I have a bad habit of making face cuts a bit deeper than needed, which I'm trying to break.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



K&H Red Heads, by the dozen they are cheap.


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Yeah, this was a deeper face cut than needed, but then I was not expecting to have to wedge it so much. I have a bad habit of making face cuts a bit deeper than needed, which I'm trying to break.


Deeper than 1/3 isn't the end of the world but it can create some drawbacks. If you're wedging against the lean and have a heavy lift a longer wedge with a shallower taper is going to make it easier to move the tree but having a really deep face means you are giving up space to use those longer wedges. I usually carry two 6" and two 10".


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## Chris-PA (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Deeper than 1/3 isn't the end of the world but it can create some drawbacks. If you're wedging against the lean and have a heavy lift a longer wedge with a shallower taper is going to make it easier to move the tree but having a really deep face means you are giving up space to use those longer wedges. I usually carry two 6" and two 10".


That's why I save the one where I got into the tip with the saw (it happens) - I sand them to a blunter taper. Once you get the cut opened with another wedge you can still use them, and they're not as long.


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## bitzer (Jan 22, 2017)

Typically timber has a eastern lean first then a southern lean. Obviously depend on where you are typography, etc. There are always those that grow back north or west into the gaps. When I start a clear-cut I typically start in the southeast corner as the majority will fall out into the cut over. When you start getting hills involved things change some. I also cut in pure northern hardwood stands so conifers are not my game. The few pine plantations I have thinned seem to follow the general rule though. Most trees will grow heavy toward the sun unless prompted otherwise. 

As far as jacking timber goes, I've never had the back split out from the pressure. Not that it couldn't happen in compromised wood,but I've never seen it. I also only jack about a dozen trees a year so I really don't have that much experience with it compared to some who do it on the regular. My trees are all hardwood too and under 100 ft tall. Positioning the hinge when jacking a tree is important because you don't want your fulcrum too close to the point of the most pressure. I have jacked trees off the stump that were limb locked and wouldn't move ahead. They just moved up. Those were small trees. 

I often cut a 40- 50% face unless other reason cause me not to do so. On a fairly balanced tree a deeper face will make the tree follow it whereas a shallow face might lead to wedging. I had an argument on another site that a guy claimed depth of face has nothing to do with changing the center of gravity and thereby does not get them to fall faster. Yeah ok. Also face types, deep and wide, deep and narrow, shallow and wide, shallow and narrow, snipes,etc all change how the tree comes off the stump and can be the determining factor if you've saved your logs or if you've busted your tree all to hell.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Typically timber has a eastern lean first then a southern lean. Obviously depend on where you are typography, etc. There are always those that grow back north or west into the gaps. When I start a clear-cut I typically start in the southeast corner as the majority will fall out into the cut over. When you start getting hills involved things change some. I also cut in pure northern hardwood stands so conifers are not my game. The few pine plantations I have thinned seem to follow the general rule though. Most trees will grow heavy toward the sun unless prompted otherwise.
> 
> As far as jacking timber goes, I've never had the back split out from the pressure. Not that it couldn't happen in compromised wood,but I've never seen it. I also only jack about a dozen trees a year so I really don't have that much experience with it compared to some who do it on the regular. My trees are all hardwood too and under 100 ft tall. Positioning the hinge when jacking a tree is important because you don't want your fulcrum too close to the point of the most pressure. I have jacked trees off the stump that were limb locked and wouldn't move ahead. They just moved up. Those were small trees.
> 
> I often cut a 40- 50% face unless other reason cause me not to do so. On a fairly balanced tree a deeper face will make the tree follow it whereas a shallow face might lead to wedging. I had an argument on another site that a guy claimed depth of face has nothing to do with changing the center of gravity and thereby does not get them to fall faster. Yeah ok. Also face types, deep and wide, deep and narrow, shallow and wide, shallow and narrow, snipes,etc all change how the tree comes off the stump and can be the determining factor if you've saved your logs or if you've busted your tree all to hell.


I agree that a deeper face cut on a relatively straight tree will commit the tree and cause it to fall faster, and can make the difference between using wedges or not.
Most of the time when I walk up to a tree I know where it should go and how I want to cut it.


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## rogue60 (Jan 22, 2017)

My old man I don't ask what went wrong apart from it was rotten and he cut to deep in the face and it let go I dunno what he was doing was just happy he didn't crush me saw lol.
We were scabbing a few crappy logs next to the sawmill to finish off a load of landscape timber, Stringybarks most always rotten in the butts in hard rocky going normally wouldn't bother with rubbish like that but got a few boards out of it for the load.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Glad he didn't smash that nice 088. lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

rogue60 said:


> My old man I don't ask what went wrong apart from it was rotten and he cut to deep in the face and it let go I dunno what he was doing was just happy he didn't crush me saw lol.
> We were scabbing a few crappy logs next to the sawmill to finish off a load of landscape timber, Stringybarks most always rotten in the butts in hard rocky going normally wouldn't bother with rubbish like that but got a few boards out of it for the load.



It's a tree like that where usual felling techniques don't apply.
Without having been there, I would have made a very small undercut or bar width kerf and blasted thru the back cut like I meant it.
It's a tree like that where you want plenty of bar.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> D Dents book mentioned it but didn't say what it was. Thanks.



You know the 'cat in the canoe', the "man in the boat'? OK! Well we are just talking about the shape of the 'canoe'. Although a small wound may close. a bigger one may attempt to on the ends where patterns may commonly taper


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

hseII said:


> K&H Red Heads, by the dozen they are cheap.


 Sounds like good advice I can take


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## Chris-PA (Jan 22, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I often cut a 40- 50% face unless other reason cause me not to do so. On a fairly balanced tree a deeper face will make the tree follow it whereas a shallow face might lead to wedging.


This has been my reasoning too. The downside being that if I misjudge the angle then I'm stuck with less leverage for wedging, and less depth for the wedges too. I guess the obvious solution is to get better at judging lean, so I'll be working on that.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Bitzer got me thinking about the forces involved with regard to the depth of the face cut, so I drew another picture. Lol
Maybe Marshy could do the math for us on 1/3 face as opposed to a 50% face, assuming the tree was perfectly balanced.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

51%...what do you mean? 50% is COG
In a perfect world


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> 51%


51% chance of the tree setting back on saw bar? Lol


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> 51% chance of the tree setting back on saw bar? Lol


Aaaaahhhhaaaha
Something like that John
I don't mess with that mainly because the wood is ethier very big or small. Big trees, that's an awful lot of extra cutting on a maybe,



I make a judgment on lean. I take 5 min between gas tanks and walk around and plan my next tank. It's like a Chinese jigsaw puzzle.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

The only times I do deep undercuts is to save me from having to set a springboard or cutting a window and sometimes it's easier to set a board or cut a window on large diameter. Weigh up my opinions ahead of time.

Other than that, I cut huge undercuts on stubbys if I can reach ...like 70% - 80% and they just flop over. they are commenly 4' - 6' and may have snapped off at 10 ft I'll fall it for safety.


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## woodsplitta (Jan 22, 2017)

Gypo, after all the trees you've cut its good to hear you still chuckle after they crash to the ground.


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 553068
> Bitzer got me thinking about the forces involved with regard to the depth of the face cut, so I drew another picture. Lol
> Maybe Marshy could do the math for us on 1/3 face as opposed to a 50% face, assuming the tree was perfectly balanced.


Once the center of gravity of the tree gets past the imaginary vertical plane of the hinge it won't take any additional wedging. The shallower face means you'll have to more the tree further to get it past that hinge so gravity can take over. Regardless of how deep the face is you'll have to move the same weight, just different distances.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Once the center of gravity of the tree gets past the imaginary vertical plane of the hinge it won't take any additional wedging. The shallower face means you'll have to more the tree further to get it past that hinge so gravity can take over. Regardless of how deep the face is you'll have to move the same weight, just different distances.


I was just wondering how much a deeper uncut changes the dispersal of weight on the intended direction of fall.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> The only times I do deep undercuts is to save me from having to set a springboard or cutting a window and sometimes it's easier to set a board or cut a window on large diameter. Weigh up my opinions ahead of time.
> 
> Other than that, I cut huge undercuts on stubbys if I can reach ...like 70% - 80% and they just flop over. they are commenly 4' - 6' and may have snapped off at 10 ft I'll fall it for safety.


Ive noticed and any stubbies I cut, I just backcut them with no UC, as they have no head weight to cause chairing or directional loss of control. Once sawn 98% thru, I simply push them over by hand, but I wouldnt do that to the much larger trees like you cut.


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I was just wondering how much a deeper uncut changes the dispersal of weight on the intended direction of fall.


Sorry, not following what you are getting at.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Once the center of gravity of the tree gets past the imaginary vertical plane of the hinge it won't take any additional wedging. The shallower face means you'll have to more the tree further to get it past that hinge so gravity can take over. Regardless of how deep the face is you'll have to move the same weight, just different distances.


Its misleading to say it's the same weigh because you have just lost two advantages
One with the distribution of weigh and the other by sortening your point of leverage to pivot point

* Edit I'm saying if it were to sit back in either case the 25% deeper undercut will sit back on a steeper angle.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Sorry, not following what you are getting at.


Lol, my question was so elementry, even I became confused.
I see the answer now. If the tree weighed 10,000# and was relatively balanced on the stump and a 1/3 face was sawn in, then 3 thousand, 3hundred and 33 pounds would be in front of the hinge and the balance of the weight would be behind the hinge, thus making the tree less susceptable to falling in the intended direction, given there was no dutchman. So wedges would be needed unless a good wind came along.


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## hseII (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Sounds like good advice I can take



As horrible as this sounds, unless buying from Madsen's, buy from Amazon: Amazon has the best price. 

I'm all about supporting local, but there are no logging stores around here I am aware of: you can buy all the Thursday "Boot" Co brand shoes you want, but anything worth owning & working must be ordered off the entertube. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## hseII (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Once the center of gravity of the tree gets past the imaginary vertical plane of the hinge it won't take any additional wedging. The shallower face means you'll have to more the tree further to get it past that hinge so gravity can take over. Regardless of how deep the face is you'll have to move the same weight, just different distances.



Provided there aren't any of those dreaded "holding limbs."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Its misleading to say it's the same weigh because you have just lost two advantages
> One with the distribution of weigh and the other by sortening your point of leverage to pivot point
> 
> * Edit I'm saying if it were to sit back in either case the 25% deeper undercut will sit back on a steeper angle.


I think I agree with the first part. I'd have to prove to myself the edit part. Until then, enjoy this little saw.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I think I agree with the first part. I'd have to prove to myself the edit part. Until then, enjoy this little saw.



Fast saw, is it stock? From here it looks like a tweeker.


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## hseII (Jan 22, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I think I agree with the first part. I'd have to prove to myself the edit part. Until then, enjoy this little saw.




The hinge is moved closer to the back of the tree/180 From the intended lay with the deeper face, & therefore you have a shorter distance from the hinge to the back to lift the tree off the backcut/remaining supporting section of the stump. 

You will have to potentially use a shorter, quicker tapering wedge, thereby increasing the resistance, & then needed force, to lift the tree "x" inches off the back cut to change the angle of the COG enough for The tree to fall over. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Fast saw, is it stock? From here it looks like a tweeker.


It's got a bunch of bananas in it.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, my question was so elementry, even I became confused.
> I see the answer now. If the tree weighed 10,000# and was relatively balanced on the stump and a 1/3 face was sawn in, then 3 thousand, 3hundred and 33 pounds would be in front of the hinge and the balance of the weight would be behind the hinge, thus making the tree less susceptable to falling in the intended direction, given there was no dutchman. So wedges would be needed unless a good wind came along.


WH-WHA-WHAT..lol
I just saw your, 333lb
I was lost.
Anyway, someone got off with a LB somewhere? How about 11% hinge and 3333lb In the front 1,111 over the hinge and 5555 behind I'm still looking for that lb
Who smoked it?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 22, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> WH-WHA-WHAT..lol
> I just saw your, 333lb
> I was lost.
> Anyway, someone got off with an LB somewhere? How about 11% hinge and 3333lb. In the front 1,111 over the hinge and 5555 behind I'm still looking for that lb
> Who smoked it?


Lol, I shouldn't be let loose in the woods.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2017)

Strong little saw, impressive!

The edit part the edit part?

It kind of starts getting confusing because we started originally talking about back leaners. So we start talking about nearly balanced trees at 50% give or take. Providing you chase your wedges
(or not) but back it up by wedges it will in no way be problematic if it does sit back on the wedges as it wasn’t a heavily leaner to begin with. Fast and easy enough to wedge like that but you spend a little more time on the undercuts but you make up on trees that go without help due to the deeper cut.



If it sits back will it sit back further?

Do a few scenarios of trees setting back without a wedge.
One at 25% and another at 50%

An easy for everbody exercise is put a pen under a cel phone on a table.

Move it down 25% representing the undercut and down to 50%

I just did it with a 28" bar on the dresser,
which is a true 30" (representing a 30" tree. The difference was a 1/4

30" tree 130ft tall
1560" ÷ 30" = 52 × .250 = top moves 13" at 50% U /C further than at 25% if it was to set back without the wedge.

I'll do a scenerio on a smaller diameter and explain a few more complications that can make a little tree harder to wedge.


The things "between the lines"


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## VW Splitter (Jan 23, 2017)

Question... If I am trying to fall a leaning tree in the opposite direction of the lean, If I get a rope up in it and can pull on the rope hard enough that I see the canopy move in the direction that I want it to fall, is that a 100% indication that I can pull it on over once I have made my face cut and back cut? Assuming I am high enough to get good leverage and pulling on the trunk, and not up so high that I am pulling on just the canopy branches. Would that hold true for any size tree with any amount of lean? If I pull too hard it could barberchair, correct?


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## square1 (Jan 23, 2017)

Did @hanniedog ever get his tree on the ground?


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 23, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Question... If I am trying to fall a leaning tree in the opposite direction of the lean, If I get a rope up in it and can pull on the rope hard enough that I see the canopy move in the direction that I want it to fall, is that a 100% indication that I can pull it on over once I have made my face cut and back cut? Assuming I am high enough to get good leverage and pulling on the trunk, and not up so high that I am pulling on just the canopy branches. Would that hold true for any size tree with any amount of lean? If I pull too hard it could barberchair, correct?



Don't think there's anything 100% in this game.

I'd say it's a sign you might be able to. It could also go somewhere you don't want it to, depending on other things like the hinge letting go on one side, or another tree catching a limb, or the wind....


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## Marshy (Jan 23, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Question... If I am trying to fall a leaning tree in the opposite direction of the lean, If I get a rope up in it and can pull on the rope hard enough that I see the canopy move in the direction that I want it to fall, is that a 100% indication that I can pull it on over once I have made my face cut and back cut? Assuming I am high enough to get good leverage and pulling on the trunk, and not up so high that I am pulling on just the canopy branches. Would that hold true for any size tree with any amount of lean? If I pull too hard it could barberchair, correct?


As said, nothing is 100%.
I wouldn't be real concerned with it charing but more concerned with pulling the but off the stump. A lot is going to depend on how strong the hinge is and the direction/angle you are pulling the tree and how much lean you are trying to over come, lots of variables to consider.


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## hanniedog (Jan 23, 2017)

Nope tree is still standing. Decided to wait on a professional named mother nature to get it on the ground.


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Don't think there's anything 100% in this game.





Marshy said:


> As said, nothing is 100%.



+1

Ropes break. Wind blows. You are just loading a little spring tension in the tree, but no guarantee that it would overcome mass and momentum. 

Philbert


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 23, 2017)

I went at a standing dead maple once. Wasn't a very good situation. It was pretty big (couple feet across at the bottom), and it was starting to shed dead limbs. After cutting a notch and finding a cavity, and some sober further thought, I put the saw away & went & got a couple of long chains and a tractor. Managed to get it around it as high as I could get it (maybe 12' - there was a limb up there I could throw it around then go from there). Tied the other end around the FEL & back away slowly. That thing exploded in a way I never expected - kind of all landed in a big heap in multiple pieces.


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## hanniedog (Jan 23, 2017)

Could borrow a neighbors track loader and just push it over


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## svk (Jan 23, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Question... If I am trying to fall a leaning tree in the opposite direction of the lean, If I get a rope up in it and can pull on the rope hard enough that I see the canopy move in the direction that I want it to fall, is that a 100% indication that I can pull it on over once I have made my face cut and back cut? Assuming I am high enough to get good leverage and pulling on the trunk, and not up so high that I am pulling on just the canopy branches. Would that hold true for any size tree with any amount of lean? If I pull too hard it could barberchair, correct?



I am a hack so if one of the pro's have a better idea then just listen to them. But here is what works for me when I want to pull a tree against it's natural lean. I am also open to constructive criticism if I am doing something wrong.

First have a chain, rope, or (least preferably) cable that has a breaking strength several times the weight of what you are attempting to pull over.
1) Get up as high as you can to fasten the line to the tree while not getting so high that you run the risk of breaking the trunk if you pull on it to hard. 
2) Once you have the line secured put a little bit of tension on it.
3) Then put in your face.
4) Then tighten up again, if the tree will let you.
5) Now you are ready for the back cut. I find this is best executed with someone else on hand so they can do the tightening (either cranking on the chain hoist or driving the vehicle) while you watch the tree. If I am pulling with a truck I will advise the driver to put it in gear and if tree allows it to start rolling forward just go with it. As you start the back cut you can judge if it is opening up or not. Have the "puller" put a little more tension on the line if it isn't moving after you have put in a good back cut. DO NOT over stress things or something is prone to break (the line, the trunk, the hinge, or the pulling vehicle/anchor) and things will go to heck quickly. If you have done things right usually the tree will get over it's center of gravity around the time you get done with the face cut and come down where you want it.

WARNING and I learned this the hard way, luckily without damage. If the tree is tipped too far back or has a decent amount of side lean you will want to find a different way to drop it. Otherwise you run the risk of having the hinge explode and the tree tipping 90 degrees to where you want it to go.

Of course no two trees are the same. I know with the aspens I frequently deal with there is a high risk of advanced core rot higher up in the tree and they could blow up at any time.

Hope this makes sense and if I have any fatal flaws in my procedures I am open to suggestions.


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 23, 2017)

Keep in mind that pulling on a tree is in effect making it a leaner. 

Therefore also making it more susceptible to the topic of this thread - hello Mr. Barber.


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## Marshy (Jan 23, 2017)

180 from the lean is sometimes asking too much. Also, in some cases putting in the back cut first and wedges can help significantly. If there's something valuable in the way then you do not want that to be your first try with this technique.


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## svk (Jan 23, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Keep in mind that pulling on a tree is in effect making it a leaner.
> 
> Therefore also making it more susceptible to the topic of this thread - hello Mr. Barber.


You are 100 percent correct. I personally have never had a pulled tree barber chair but it is very possible especially with a combination of too much holding wood and too much tension on the line.



Marshy said:


> 180 from the lean is sometimes asking too much. Also, in some cases putting in the back cut first and wedges can help significantly. If there's something valuable in the way then you do not want that to be your first try with this technique.


Against a modest lean is easy in my experience. However my experience is limited to a few species so it is far from gospel.

100 percent agree with second statement.


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2017)

This has been a long thread. Almost forget that the OP started out asking about binder straps.

Philbert


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## VW Splitter (Jan 23, 2017)

svk said:


> I am a hack so if one of the pro's have a better idea then just listen to them. But here is what works for me when I want to pull a tree against it's natural lean. I am also open to constructive criticism if I am doing something wrong.
> 
> First have a chain, rope, or (least preferably) cable that has a breaking strength several times the weight of what you are attempting to pull over.
> 1) Get up as high as you can to fasten the line to the tree while not getting so high that you run the risk of breaking the trunk if you pull on it to hard.
> ...


 This is pretty much the method I have used in the past. I'm looking at a tree that's a little bigger and a little more lean than what I've done in the past. I always use a rope stronger than what my truck and pull. And I am good about keeping the hinge the same thickness all the way across. If it went the wrong way it would just be hard to drag out from down the hill. This is in Gatlinburg TN again so the bottom is burnt/hollow. The burnt/hollow quickly fades to the outside. I was going to try to cut it up about 5 foot high, which would be mostly out of the burnt/hollow.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

Given that a tree is reasonably solid, there is only two things that can cause a chair other than wind, a dutchman and or too thick holding wood or aggressively yanking the tree over. That's four things. Lol
A p/u in first gear and low range on the transfer case is best.
Choking just below the crown gives plenty of mechanical advantage.
If the cutter remains at the stump to make sure the holding wood isnt too thick while the truck eases ever so slowly forward, then there should be a safety meeting first.


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## SeMoTony (Jan 23, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 553316
> Given that a tree is reasonably solid, there is only two things that can cause a chair other than wind, a dutchman and or too thick holding wood or aggressively yanking the tree over. That's four things. Lol
> A p/u in first gear and low range on the transfer case is best.
> Choking just below the crown gives plenty of mechanical advantage.
> If the cutter remains at the stump to make sure the holding wood isnt too thick while the truck eases ever so slowly forward, then there should be a safety meeting first.


Just like I said about your earlier work Gypo. Your art work continues to improve


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

Philbert said:


> This has been a long thread. Almost forget that the OP started out asking about binder straps.
> 
> Philbert


Maybe we can talk WBF into falling a big leaner with just a ratchet strap and one fast backcut, no undercut. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 23, 2017)

Stump jumper


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## bitzer (Jan 23, 2017)

Philbert said:


> This has been a long thread. Almost forget that the OP started out asking about binder straps.
> 
> Philbert


I threw the challenge out there and I'm glad some took the challenge as a way to learn. More often then not it gets ugly, but you have to test the waters somehow and it turned out good this time.


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## VW Splitter (Jan 23, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I threw the challenge out there and I'm glad some took the challenge as a way to learn. More often then not it gets ugly, but you have to test the waters somehow and it turned out good this time.



To learn, that's why I'm here. And I've done a lot of it in the last few years I've been on this site. I do a lot more learking/reading than posting.


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## rwoods (Jan 23, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Maybe we can talk WBF into falling a big leaner with just a ratchet strap and one fast backcut, no undercut. Lol



Like in the picture you post at #242. Or is there a face cut opposite the view? I hope that white oak (??) was hung tight seeing the posing under it. Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

rwoods said:


> Like in the picture you post at #242. Or is there a face cut opposite the view? I hope that white oak (??) was hung tight seeing the posing under it. Ron


I couldn't place an undercut because the tree shown was wind thrown and hung up in another tree. The tree was already butt shattered, so I just severed it off the stump and winched it down with the skidder. It was a rock maple.
Glad you asked, because I looked like an idiot standing underneath it. Lol


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## rwoods (Jan 23, 2017)

Didn't know that was you. Better to look like than be. 

I had assumed that the chairing and splits came from stump jumping. Wind sure can put a hurting on a tree but also makes for some serious head scratching - which to me is the enjoyable part whether falling or bucking.

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 23, 2017)

Clarification: Better to look like an idiot than be an idiot. Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

This guy is an idiot!


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## Chris-PA (Jan 23, 2017)

Think I can drop this one back in the woods? It's got a little lean to it.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Think I can drop this one back in the woods? It's got a little lean to it.
> View attachment 553426


Might be hard to fall it back into the bush, but you could back right under it. Bucked and loaded.


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## rwoods (Jan 23, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> This guy is an idiot!




I could be that idiot but I don't know how to run the camera. Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 23, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I threw the challenge out there and I'm glad some took the challenge as a way to learn. More often then not it gets ugly, but you have to test the waters somehow and it turned out good this time.


 GOOD!!! We've given up all our tricks! I always hold something for a suprise. As the old cliché goes
"I said I taught "you" everything "you" know, not everything "I" know"




*I'm probably good for another 20 pages yet?
Knowledge is power,
but to duplicate is to detectate. It takes your life, one way or another. The ultimate fredom, can turn into the ultimate prison.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> GOOD!!! We've given up all our tricks! I always hold something for a suprise. As the old cliché goes
> "I said I taught "you" everything "you" know, not everything "I" know"
> My drinking crew has a logging problem.
> 
> ...


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## hseII (Jan 23, 2017)

Marshy said:


> 180 from the lean is sometimes asking too much.
> 
> Also, in some cases putting in the back cut first and wedges can help significantly.
> 
> If there's something valuable in the way then you do not want that to be your first try with this technique.



All 3 points x 100


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## hseII (Jan 23, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 553316
> Given that a tree is reasonably solid, there is only two things that can cause a chair other than wind, a dutchman and or too thick holding wood or aggressively yanking the tree over. That's four things. Lol
> A p/u in first gear and low range on the transfer case is best.
> Choking just below the crown gives plenty of mechanical advantage.
> If the cutter remains at the stump to make sure the holding wood isnt too thick while the truck eases ever so slowly forward, then there should be a safety meeting first.



This is a theory I plan to try in the not too distant future, away from anything that matters:

1. A leaning Pine or Oak, >30" in diameter, & at least 75' tall. 
2. Set up a pull line at leas 30' off the ground. 
3. Start my back cut to about 6", & palm an 8" wedge, easy tapping with axe, till it stops.
4. Tension pull line, either 5/8" or 3/4" stable braid, with my 5:1 MA.
5. Cut a steep face with about 30% dia of the butt, ensuring no dutchman.
6. Further tension my pull line: nothing crazy, but looking for movement vs. previous resistance. 
7. Bore in & set my hinge: exactly by the book.
8. Tension a tick more. 

At this point, the compression wood should be compromised, no?

9. Continue my back cut with short wedges, working the wedges, pull line, & saw, & watching the top.

I know this sounds long winded, but I'm thinking of a possible future trick for leaning trees near save trees or structures...

Please Critique. 

All this is based on the tree being solid, & not Populas, although, with a strap, & the bore cut, why not?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 23, 2017)

hseII said:


> This is a theory I plan to try in the not too distant future, away from anything that matters:
> 
> 1. A leaning Pine or Oak, >30" in diameter, & at least 75' tall.
> 2. Set up a pull line at leas 30' off the ground.
> ...


Sounds like all bases are covered. Once I cabled a tree and the driver goosed the truck and the dead double crown snaped off and just missed me. It wasn't her fault though, I should have called a safety meeting.


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## Marshy (Jan 23, 2017)

hseII said:


> This is a theory I plan to try in the not too distant future, away from anything that matters:
> 
> 1. A leaning Pine or Oak, >30" in diameter, & at least 75' tall.
> 2. Set up a pull line at leas 30' off the ground.
> ...


Circumstance pending, finish your back cut 100% before the face. Get 3 wedges in the back cut and pounded tight asap, they''ll keep it from pinching your bar. Get the rope tight and reset the wedges. Cut the face and bang away on those wedges and pull the rope.


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## SeMoTony (Jan 23, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Think I can drop this one back in the woods? It's got a little lean to it.
> View attachment 553426


take a few feet off the top if you want it a lil easier


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2017)

hseII said:


> This is a theory I plan to try in the not too distant future, away from anything that matters:
> . . . Please Critique.


I don't understand the back cut if you plan to bore cut - can you please elaborate on that?

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 24, 2017)

BTW , 180° Off the lean is text book baby.
When it important it's 100% You have to believe it's 100%, not 99.9. Nobody can tell anybody that. You have to know for yourself through experience, or your trusted lead that is there. When its your life then you lead and controll your own environment. We assess and make a realization, never a rationalization.
I would like to share a a bit of history at a later time...about a few of the falling difficulties I have proceeded with, It may take me a half an hour to realize I will do it but I believe 100%
Srry..I haven't comprehended everyones post yet.
Exellent contrabutions from what I see and a little overwelming as to how my brain clicks.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 24, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Question... If I am trying to fall a leaning tree in the opposite direction of the lean, If I get a rope up in it and can pull on the rope hard enough that I see the canopy move in the direction that I want it to fall, is that a 100% indication that I can pull it on over once I have made my face cut and back cut? Assuming I am high enough to get good leverage and pulling on the trunk, and not up so high that I am pulling on just the canopy branches. Would that hold true for any size tree with any amount of lean? If I pull too hard it could barberchair, correct?


I would say yes to me and no to you...WHY...because it's very subjective.
Again! you are pulling what with what?
Your saw sounds realy nice 'doged in' BTW. good and sharp too! Running a little rich or it was a bit cold?


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 24, 2017)

hseII said:


> This is a theory I plan to try in the not too distant future, away from anything that matters:
> 
> 1. A leaning Pine or Oak, >30" in diameter, & at least 75' tall.
> 2. Set up a pull line at leas 30' off the ground.
> ...


I would just make humbolt face and a conventional back cut when get deep enough to set a couple wedges pound them in , use the sight lines on the saw to cut even with the face,if you bore bacwards seems like you will not lift the tree as good and it will set back when cut your strap ,i would stop cutting when hinge is about 4 inches thick ,then pound wedges and tug your line now see if can break the hinge ,with a thick hinge it should fall directon of the face cut,even if pull the line at an angle so it dont fall on you.if cant break the hinge may have to keep cutting but keep it thick as can so goes where you want.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 24, 2017)

svk said:


> I am a hack so if one of the pro's have a better idea then just listen to them. But here is what works for me when I want to pull a tree against it's natural lean. I am also open to constructive criticism if I am doing something wrong.
> 
> First have a chain, rope, or (least preferably) cable that has a breaking strength several times the weight of what you are attempting to pull over.
> 1) Get up as high as you can to fasten the line to the tree while not getting so high that you run the risk of breaking the trunk if you pull on it to hard.
> ...


 Get back to the shack HACK...lol oh ok you said constructive criticism, not insults. Honestly Steve, I was taught how to turf trees of the power lines by one of the best CUA'S on the coast here. He is also the one that taught me the 100% rule as well off the lean 180°. 1, 2,3 and 4, I would give you an A+
#5...? Mostly sounds right. It should not go over when cutting, the pull is to stand it back up only. When back cut is in then go from the stump and signle for the completion. Faller always sets and controls the presure. Always shut your saw off and yell BACK CUT! Clear the vision path to the turfer as well to enser a safe distance with a plan. "I know a guy that killed his apprentice". turfng from a short distance and the guy was on a cel fighting with his GF and went the wrong way. Some trees will Barberchair easy. Judge tention from below; done by faller and not when you are not looking as in busy doing something else. If they tention up when you are not looking have then slack it back off. (Sometimes you can't tell)
You always controll your environment don't assume, don't miss a step. Back up with wedges is a great idea.
Yeah this guy...my buddy Ken took a 5ft maples that a bunch of CUA'S would not do. It was almost flat with the line over a hill. He used 3 turfer, two bull ropes and a cable centre line, 180° Off the lean. 100° only.

He even asked my opinion once, which was suprising because he would always say "fallers are chit to me, theyj always put out the line"..lol



Steve awesome, if it's good enough for Ken it's good enough for everbody! (Standard practice)
In my area you realy have to be careful of the Barberchair on the, cherry, birch, alder cottonwood, because they are fast growing on the coast. As long as we all know it can be apples and oranges.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 24, 2017)

A bit off topic, sorry fellas, but just interested if anyone else has had that knot in their stomach when they have put all the pulling tension they dare or can apply, on a leaner and the biartch doesn't wanna cooperate? Things can unravel a fair bit from that point on for us idjits that reach that point


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 24, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> if cant break the hinge may have to keep cutting but keep it thick as can so goes where you want.


or you end up wearing it.

I want to be a Cow-boy ba-by


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 24, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=v4CuQfMmyYk


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## Marshy (Jan 24, 2017)




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## Woody912 (Jan 24, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Question... If I am trying to fall a leaning tree in the opposite direction of the lean, If I get a rope up in it and can pull on the rope hard enough that I see the canopy move in the direction that I want it to fall, is that a 100% indication that I can pull it on over once I have made my face cut and back cut? Assuming I am high enough to get good leverage and pulling on the trunk, and not up so high that I am pulling on just the canopy branches. Would that hold true for any size tree with any amount of lean? If I pull too hard it could barberchair, correct?



I have cut 100's of trees like this the last few yrs, mostly wild cherry ( fence row trees) using chains and my pickup facing towards the tree, chains 10-15' off the ground. Tension the chain after I put in my face cut, I make my back cut relatively high because I think it provides a slight margin of error. Some disagree. Get a wedge in as soon as I can mostly to monitor the movement of the tree and have the truck drive gradually walk the tree back over center of gravity at which time I may gun the back cut or cut to a hinge and walk away and pull it down depending on other factors, mostly side lean. We have yet to chain one in spite of some pretty serious pulling. Your results may vary


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## Bwildered (Jan 24, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551592
> View attachment 551591
> Speaking of falling, I don't get why this snow hasn't fallen off my outhouse.


It's not warm enough for the snow to slide off the iron roof, but the aroma has forced the snow to do what it can to escape!
Peeuwski


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## hseII (Jan 24, 2017)

Philbert said:


> I don't understand the back cut if you plan to bore cut - can you please elaborate on that?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert



The purpose was to Get enough back cut complete to set wedges & leave room to continue the back cut.

The purpose of boring in was to set the hinge & remove some of the compressed wood: about a bar's with worth plus whatever needed to complete the hinge.

I have been known to over think things, & after reading other's posts, it seems this would be one of those times.


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## Marshy (Jan 24, 2017)

hseII said:


> The purpose was to Get enough back cut complete to set wedges & leave room to continue the back cut.
> 
> The purpose of boring in was to set the hinge & remove some of the compressed wood: about a bar's with worth plus whatever needed to complete the hinge.
> 
> I have been known to over think things, & after reading other's posts, it seems this would be one of those times.


The compression wood isn't holding the tree, the tension wood is. If your going to do the back cut first then go all the way with it you'll be more productive instead of cut, pound, cut pound. The wedges will replace that compression wood. What you don't want to do is remove any of the tension wood before your ready to move the tree and you don't want to have to go back on the compression side after you've remove tension wood. Once you remove the tension wood the tree is going to want to move so set the back cut and bang the wedges in hard before removing tension wood. Just my 0.02$


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 24, 2017)

hseII said:


> The purpose was to Get enough back cut complete to set wedges & leave room to continue the back cut.
> 
> The purpose of boring in was to set the hinge & remove some of the compressed wood: about a bar's with worth plus whatever needed to complete the hinge.
> 
> I have been known to over think things, & after reading other's posts, it seems this would be one of those times.


I would be worried about it setting back and pinching my blade.....

I would only bore cut if the tree has lean in direction of fall.


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## Philbert (Jan 24, 2017)

I would be concerned about removing tension wood, encouraging a barber chair. 

I understand bore cutting to remove the intermediate wood (not sure of the right term), leaving only the hinge and a holding 'strap'. 

I was shown to wedge a bore cut from both sides, if the tree diameter is large enough. But if the tree is leaning enough to worry about barber chairing, the wedges may not be needed. 

Philbert


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## Marshy (Jan 24, 2017)

I don't think I've said this in this particular thread but it's worth saying. 

Any time you have wood chair its a shear stress failure of the fiber. Wood fibers are perform poorly in shear stress. 

When you have a leaning tree or over hung branch (cantilevered) the shear stress is at its absolute highest where the wood fibers in tension transition to fibers in compression. There's an invisible 2D plane through the body of wood.

By bore cutting the tree to are significantly reducing the amount of shear in the fibers by creating a "dead space" between the tension and compression fibers. 

If all you do it start cutting the tension fibers then the load of the tree is put into the remaining fibers in tension which increases the shear stress until it fails. 

I thought that might entertain you guys.


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## svk (Jan 24, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Get back to the shack HACK...lol oh ok you said constructive criticism, not insults. Honestly Steve, I was taught how to turf trees of the power lines by one of the best CUA'S on the coast here. He is also the one that taught me the 100% rule as well off the lean 180°. 1, 2,3 and 4, I would give you an A+
> #5...? Mostly sounds right. It should not go over when cutting, the pull is to stand it back up only. When back cut is in then go from the stump and signle for the completion. Faller always sets and controls the presure. Always shut your saw off and yell BACK CUT! Clear the vision path to the turfer as well to enser a safe distance with a plan. "I know a guy that killed his apprentice". turfng from a short distance and the guy was on a cel fighting with his GF and went the wrong way. Some trees will Barberchair easy. Judge tention from below; done by faller and not when you are not looking as in busy doing something else. If they tention up when you are not looking have then slack it back off. (Sometimes you can't tell)
> You always controll your environment don't assume, don't miss a step. Back up with wedges is a great idea.
> Yeah this guy...my buddy Ken took a 5ft maples that a bunch of CUA'S would not do. It was almost flat with the line over a hill. He used 3 turfer, two bull ropes and a cable centre line, 180° Off the lean. 100° only.
> ...


Appreciate the thoughts very much. 

Please remind me what the "100 percent" rule is?


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 24, 2017)

Marshy said:


>



I like that guys demo videos,that is not too far from here so same kind of trees.


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)

Wow, who would of bored this? Thats what crossed my mind at first. Damn.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 25, 2017)

Someone said that by roping a tree you are making a leaner, but in fact every tree is a leaner as soon as you put your saw into it. A tree falls by making it lean.


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## hseII (Jan 25, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Wow, who would of bored this? Thats what crossed my mind at first. Damn.




Me,
But I understand his logic also. That one would have been tricky regardless. 

It's all but a given around home that a mature poplar or maple will be doodie. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Philbert (Jan 25, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Wow, who would of bored this?


Hard to follow due to the videography. No real clear view of the tree to judge lean.

I was concerned about his back cut hitting the other trunks, and might have thought about a bore cut just for that reason. Don't understand his comment, '_glad I didn't bore cut that . . ._'? (4:45)

Philbert


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## hseII (Jan 25, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Hard to follow due to the videography. No real clear view of the tree to judge lean.
> 
> I was concerned about his back cut hitting the other trees, and might have thought about a bore cut just for that reason. Don't understand his comment, '_glad I didn't bore cut that_'?
> 
> Philbert



The tree was punky in the middle, & according to his previous experiences, those tend to sit down & twist on his bar when boring. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Hard to follow due to the videography. No real clear view of the tree to judge lean.
> 
> I was concerned about his back cut hitting the other trunks, and might have thought about a bore cut just for that reason. Don't understand his comment, '_glad I didn't bore cut that . . ._'? (4:45)
> 
> Philbert


He said he was glad he didn't bore because it was a hard enough leaner where a large portion of the tree was in compression and would have sat on the bar. The trunk probably only had about 3" of tension fibers so any bore at that point would have been in compression wood. That's how I took it.

Yes I agree, not the most stable video and hard to get a clean look at the lean.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 25, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Hard to follow due to the videography. No real clear view of the tree to judge lean.
> 
> I was concerned about his back cut hitting the other trunks, and might have thought about a bore cut just for that reason. Don't understand his comment, '_glad I didn't bore cut that . . ._'? (4:45)
> 
> Philbert


From what I saw, there didn't look like much of a leaner.
I know it sounds like a mantra of mine, but he had a dutchman in there and an angled backcut. Boring may have mitigated the damage as would have side cutting it, but then again I wasn't there.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 25, 2017)

After he had made the undercut, he commented on how clear the wood looked. Although there might have been a 4" core of centre rot, that would have been sawn out had he plunged out the heart thru the face, rendering the centre rot inconsequential.


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 25, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Someone said that by roping a tree you are making a leaner, but in fact every tree is a leaner as soon as you put your saw into it. A tree falls by making it lean.



OK - makes it a worser leaner.


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> OK - makes it a worser leaner.


Depends which way you're pulling. Against the lean will help it from charing.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 25, 2017)

I coos bay the maples and alder like that ,none have split on me so far ,if i hear one pop i will run like he did though . I do not care for the school marms like that ,gotta cut em over your head and chips go down your neck .


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 25, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Depends which way you're pulling. Against the lean will help it from charing.



True that. I was assuming a pull on a leaner the way it is leaning when I wrote that.

Which I think is what the pulling guy was talking, a few pages back, but my mind could be foggy on that.

Holy, 20+ pages, we're in deep here...


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## svk (Jan 25, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I coos bay the maples and alder like that ,none have split on me so far ,if i hear one pop i will run like he did though . I do not care for the school marms like that ,gotta cut em over your head and chips go down your neck .


Can you add a coos bay diagram to the excellent collection of notepad diagrams we have in this thread? That's a method that hasn't been discussed in a while.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 25, 2017)

svk said:


> Can you add a coos bay diagram to the excellent collection of notepad diagrams we have in this thread? That's a method that hasn't been discussed in a while.


Where's Coos Bay? Is there good fishin there?


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)




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## svk (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks guys. 

So what if you have a tree that has a really strong lean and you want it to just go with the lean but not barberchair? I'm talking a lean so strong that any type of face cut will result in a pinch. 

Often I'll come across a tree (usually a pine/spruce/cedar, but sometimes a maple or aspen) that will partially uproot and then keep living. Frequently these will be tipped over a road after a windstorm or wet heavy snow because the roots were compromised on that side of the tree.


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)

You'll always be able to do a face, just do it very shallow, just through the sap wood.


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## hseII (Jan 25, 2017)

I know that cut, & I've heard Coots Bay, but I did not know that was what it's called.

I have that book also.

It's either "To Fell a Tree", or Douglas Dent's book mentioned earlier. I can't remember. 


Junkman likes it.


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## rwoods (Jan 25, 2017)

GL, keep preaching the unintended Dutchman. I for one am listening. Won't venture a guess how many trees have stalled on me due to my sloppy cuts.

Ron


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## Woody912 (Jan 25, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Someone said that by roping a tree you are making a leaner, but in fact every tree is a leaner as soon as you put your saw into it. A tree falls by making it lean.



I am a firewood hack and my falling cuts are not particularly good. I have chained and pulled 100's of trees, some of which we could not pull down and I had to put the saw back into them. I have never chaired one. Maybe cause we are pulling against the tension wood ????????? You guys are the pro's, just my own personal experience. So far, which may change tomorrow


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## Woody912 (Jan 25, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Wow, who would of bored this? Thats what crossed my mind at first. Damn.




BuckingBilly is really a good faller but he might be a little cavalier with conjoined twins. That borecut/barberchair combo always concerns me also!


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 25, 2017)

svk said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> So what if you have a tree that has a really strong lean and you want it to just go with the lean but not barberchair? I'm talking a lean so strong that any type of face cut will result in a pinch.
> 
> Often I'll come across a tree (usually a pine/spruce/cedar, but sometimes a maple or aspen) that will partially uproot and then keep living. Frequently these will be tipped over a road after a windstorm or wet heavy snow because the roots were compromised on that side of the tree.


You can offset your facecut up to 45 degrees from the lean using wedges, but it helps alot when you're actually there to bond with the tree before any cutting begins. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 25, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> BuckingBilly is really a good faller but he might be a little cavalier with conjoined twins. That borecut/barberchair combo always concerns me also!


Billy should wear a hardhat. Just like driving with no seatbelt, you may not need one until you've driven 100,000 miles or dumped 100,000 trees.


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Billy should wear a hardhat. Just like driving with no seatbelt, you may not need one until you've driven 100,000 miles or dumped 100,000 trees.


He wears a hard hat. His camera is on the hard hat so when he turns the camera on himself after a cut he takes the hat off his head to do so. There are a few occasions where believe he sets the hat down to get the shot and has no hat but for the most part he's wearing one. But yeah, it only takes one.


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## ncpete (Jan 25, 2017)

and he has multiple cameras, so.... but yes, there are some shots of him without the hardhat on.


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## Marshy (Jan 25, 2017)

hseII said:


> I know that cut, & I've heard Coots Bay, but I did not know that was what it's called.
> 
> I have that book also.
> 
> ...


It's Douglas Dent's book. It's a good read.


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## Woody912 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Billy should wear a hardhat. Just like driving with no seatbelt, you may not need one until you've driven 100,000 miles or dumped 100,000 trees.



His triple domino while cutting from a ladder made me sweat bullets. He's probably faster than me but not from mid-air


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## Marshy (Jan 26, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> His triple domino while cutting from a ladder made me sweat bullets. He's probably faster than me but not from mid-air


That was wicked. Had me nervous.


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## firefighter938 (Jan 26, 2017)

I've been following this thread and just wanted to say thanks. I have two EAB ash trees that need to be dropped. Both are leaners and I have been thinking about them for a few weeks now. One can drop with the lean, but the other needs to fall at a 90 to its lean. I am just a hack but have enjoyed this thread.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 553868
> 
> Where's Coos Bay? Is there good fishin there?


Halfway down the Oregon coast on hwy 101 ,lots of fishing boats so i would say yes,i only went there for the sand dunes though.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 26, 2017)

hseII said:


> I know that cut, & I've heard Coots Bay, but I did not know that was what it's called.
> 
> I have that book also.
> 
> ...


Its an easy quick cut that gets the job done without pinching your bar,do not stand behind the lean though off to the side when making triangle cuts,a long bar is safer also ,no 20 inchers


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 26, 2017)

This cedar was growing to the south ,and had to fall to the north ,my house was about 25 feet away ,just behind where am taking the picture ,the little guy in front of it i just pushed over ,3 wedges buried did not have enough lift tip the cedar,or break the hinge,i did not want to mess with stacking wedges and sweating for a half hour so i hooked a choker about 10-12 feet off the ground and parked my skid steer just to the right of where i was taking the picture put a couple extentons on the choker and a couple tugs backing up and it fell slow right beside me in the direction of the face cut ,Very important to leave enough hinge or it can roll off the stump and go somewhere else on you ,that tree had a lot of long limbs ,falling into the driveway and not down the cliff saved a lot of work on cleanup ,and yarding back up the hill .I have found on a lot of trees you do not have to be very far up to pull them over ,12 feet usually does it for me Plus i do not slack up as fast on my cable when going over .Maybe someone can math the leverage force out on a pull cable 12 feet up 20 feet and 30 feet ? That is over my head .


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 26, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> His triple domino while cutting from a ladder made me sweat bullets. He's probably faster than me but not from mid-air


A triple chaired domino fall would be a site to see. Lol
Heres one of my unintended triple dominoes... All three pixels.


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## svk (Jan 26, 2017)

Billy Ray is sure a character!


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## Woody912 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> A triple chaired domino fall would be a site to see. Lol
> Heres one of my unintended triple dominoes... All three pixels.




all 3 roped together with the last one cut in the lead slot dragging the other 2 down. 10' up on a ladder


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## bitzer (Jan 26, 2017)

I'm not overly impressed with Billy Ray. That ash he chairs is merch timber that I cut every day. In hard leaning hardwood you want to use a modified coos bay that I showed pictures of early on in this thread. Basically wide open face, gut the heart, then back cut each side of the back one side at a time. I just finished a swamp where I would saw several marms off of one stump. Many over my head and still save them out. It's what you're used to I guess.

On that I ash I would have put a Humboldt in. Then a snipe on the stump (another little chunk out of the stump for more relief) then gutted the heart. I would have nipped the wood on the right side of the back cut maybe a few inches deep and then finished the back cut from the other side ( the side he back cut on). He didn't take time to cut his compression wood up enough. He just back cut it and he's lucky he got his saw out. It looked like total amateur hour at cutting a hardwood leaner. He got lucky.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 26, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I'm not overly impressed with Billy Ray. That ash he chairs is merch timber that I cut every day. In hard leaning hardwood you want to use a modified coos bay that I showed pictures of early on in this thread. Basically wide open face, gut the heart, then back cut each side of the back one side at a time. I just finished a swamp where I would saw several marms off of one stump. Many over my head and still save them out. It's what you're used to I guess.
> 
> On that I ash I would have put a Humboldt in. Then a snipe on the stump (another little chunk out of the stump for more relief) then gutted the heart. I would have nipped the wood on the right side of the back cut maybe a few inches deep and then finished the back cut from the other side ( the side he back cut on). He didn't take time to cut his compression wood up enough. He just back cut it and he's lucky he got his saw out. It looked like total amateur hour at cutting a hardwood leaner. He got lucky.


 He is just an urban surgeon. I have only seen this video and a part of another one on here but I wasn't in the mood. He did an A+ job in the cut steps to utilize the max advantage BUT....his wedging tecneques are something to be disired. .which brings me to my next point. Kids,..don't do drugs!
I will say he is from my town I was raised and my parents live. My routes of this country. I will say he is confident and compedant from what I've seen so far.

The wedging?
I almost get the feeling he is half doing it for the workout, he's definitely getting that part ? IDK. . It's not a feat of strength through max weight & force.
It's a happy medium in this case.
Precission and tecneque will always beat weight and force. I always joke when I can hear a guy beating off with his axe on the hill to much. I call him Bob the builber. 'Bill the builder' is it? I get ye fact that a few extra swings were for demonstration/exercise.

How do you do it correctly ? (For the purpose of everyone)

There is only one right way...just so happens to be my way.

You know when I know that's true?
When you are a skinny phucker and you have bigger vains in your jaw and your ****. Then you know you 'have made it'!

Anyway...

He doesn't alternate his wedges Werth chit. He ends with 4 hits on the wedge/wedge stack closest to him twice?
That's crazy! If it's gets hard and its hard on every row then thats it, In the case of "back cut before the undercut.
Didn't he use two rows with the 8lb sledge for the frist cut (back cut)? Why not a
3 1/5 lb with a 22' handle and 4 rows?

Doublng up wedges:

Your don't just alternate your rows but alternate the wedges in the row.
a sledge hammer is useless!!!
He did alternative a few with the sledge randomly. If you can't alternate then it's a miss! It got harder for him and not easier for that reason. He did eventually go to that long handle 5lb wedge melter.
It's all about alternation and accuracy.
Last I tried, doubling up and maxing a two stack on a doug fir; it just wasn’t that
hard.


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## barton174 (Jan 26, 2017)

Jakers said:


> i am very serious about this. A 4" tree can take your head clean off. imagine what an 18" tree could do


My dad (not a logger, just a regular guy) has known 2 people who got killed while clearing fence rows, and had 4-6" cherry trees, that they thought were too small to need a notch, split and kill them.

Mike

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 26, 2017)

Woody912 said:


> all 3 roped together with the last one cut in the lead slot dragging the other 2 down. 10' up on a ladder


Lol, no it was a free fall off the edge of a steep slope. The ground was wet, so over they went.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 26, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> He is just an urban surgeon. I have only seen this video and a part of another one on here but I wasn't in the mood. He did an A+ job in the cut steps to utilize the max advantage BUT....his wedging tecneques are something to be disired. .which brings me to my next point. Kids,..don't do drugs!
> I will say he is from my town I was raised and my parents live. My routes of this country. I will say he is confident and compedant from what I've seen so far.
> 
> The wedging?
> ...


I hear ya about all that wedge pounding. Its a total waste of energy if you have criss crossed cuts or the backcut is below the undercut. Its all about mechanical advantage.
Let's tear Billy limb from limb. Lol


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2017)

Well, this thread sucks. Pretty much all I've ever used is a simple face cut of varying depth and a conventional back cut on everything. Cutting a leaner in the direction of lean was especially easy as there wasn't anything to worry about, you knew where it was going to go. I did switch to using humbolt lately as I like the way it should keep the tree from kicking off the stump, but mostly I've been working to get my sloppy cuts to line up.

Now, however, I have to think about all this chairing crap, which seems like a PITA. I blame this thread - if I hadn't read it I'd still be happily whacking down leaners the way I always did. I'm just going to convince myself you guys are a bunch of wusses with your panties in a twist over nothing and forget about it - maybe I'll go back to the sloping back cut like my old man taught me.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 26, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Well, this thread sucks. Pretty much all I've ever used is a simple face cut of varying depth and a conventional back cut on everything. Cutting a leaner in the direction of lean was especially easy as there wasn't anything to worry about, you knew where it was going to go. I did switch to using humbolt lately I like the way it should keep the tree from kicking off the stump, but mostly I've been working to get my sloppy cuts to line up.
> 
> Now, however, I have to think about all this chairing crap, which seems like a PITA. I blame this thread - if I hadn't read it I'd still be happily whacking down leaners the way I always did. I'm just going to convince myself you guys are a bunch of wusses with your panties in a twist over nothing and forget about it - maybe I'll go back to the sloping back cut like my old man taught me.


Lol, it's not something that happens that often, Ive only chaired about a dozen trees since 1981, but it's nice to know how they can be avoided. Most of my chairmanship was due to the deadly dutchman which I didn't understand at the time. Lol.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, it's not something that happens that often, Ive only chaired about a dozen trees since 1981, but it's nice to know how they can be avoided. Most of my chairmanship was due to the deadly dutchman which I didn't understand at the time. Lol.


Well, being a Pennsylvania Dutchman they come especially easy to me - it's sort of a heredity thing. 

Seriously though, I have a much better understanding of what is happening and the stresses on the fibers (as well described by @Marshy in comment #374), and that will help a lot in reading the trees.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 26, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I don't think I've said this in this particular thread but it's worth saying.
> 
> Any time you have wood chair its a shear stress failure of the fiber. Wood fibers are perform poorly in shear stress.
> 
> ...


Very good description! One of the most important parts of the equation is having a fast saw and sawing like you mean it.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 26, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Well, this thread sucks. Pretty much all I've ever used is a simple face cut of varying depth and a conventional back cut on everything. Cutting a leaner in the direction of lean was especially easy as there wasn't anything to worry about, you knew where it was going to go. I did switch to using humbolt lately as I like the way it should keep the tree from kicking off the stump, but mostly I've been working to get my sloppy cuts to line up.
> 
> Now, however, I have to think about all this chairing crap, which seems like a PITA. I blame this thread - if I hadn't read it I'd still be happily whacking down leaners the way I always did. I'm just going to convince myself you guys are a bunch of wusses with your panties in a twist over nothing and forget about it - maybe I'll go back to the sloping back cut like my old man taught me.



LMAO

I got tears running down my cheek
You are a smart AND VERY funny guy Chris. That deserves a 'follow' You aren't still mad that some grade 3 hick gave your a physics lesson are you ..LMAO
Well when it comes to the physics of a combustion engine ..and you talking; if its any consolation, I'm two ears open, cross eyed and tongue hanging to the side.

Thanks for hanging out my friend,
very much my pleasue.

Thank you to all, I've realy enjoyed this
but I have to go now


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, it's not something that happens that often, Ive only chaired about a dozen trees since 1981, but it's nice to know how they can be avoided. Most of my chairmanship was due to the deadly dutchman which I didn't understand at the time. Lol.



Mine are from Bitçh U/C's, shallow openings in junk yellow ceder. I usually backbar a few inches out of the front of my Humboldt now to change the compression point. I had a bad one last spring in the Valley on coast Cottonwood.
Running 8 hours instead of 6.5.
I pulled out of my back cut too soon on a lean, the coast hardwoods are chit wood when they are young, way too fast growing. Tired makes for bad judgment.


*EDIT * 

Its all about feeling, but this is just it.
I felt it was enough, but a little tired, a little too thick holding wood and a little to much lean.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Very good description! One of the most important parts of the equation is having a fast saw and sawing like you mean it.



"Take my hand dear Lord
walk with me this day
in my heart I know
I will never stray"

God hates a coward!
I'll stay the cource and right the ship ....
if I'm there


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 27, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I coos bay the maples and alder like that ,none have split on me so far ,if i hear one pop i will run like he did though . I do not care for the school marms like that ,gotta cut em over your head and chips go down your neck .


 Man, I'm getting behind lots of post to quote.
IDK if I have mentioned this?
God hates a coward


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 27, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Mine are from Bitçh U/C's, shallow openings in junk yellow ceder. I usually backbar a few inches out of the front of my Humboldt now to change the compression point. I had a bad one last spring in the Valley on coast Cottonwood.
> Running 8 hours instead of 6.5.
> I pulled out of my back cut too soon on a lean, the coast hardwoods are chit wood when they are young, way too fast growing. Tired makes for bad judgment.
> 
> ...


Good point Jamie about tree age. Some trees as you know have real thick growth rings, which are way more weaker and subject to splitting than some of the ultra fine grain stuff that we find once in a while.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 27, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> You aren't still mad that some grade 3 hick gave your a physics lesson are you


Heck no, I like it when someone explains something I haven't understood properly and the light bulb goes on!


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## hseII (Jan 27, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Heck no, I like it when someone explains something I haven't understood properly and the light bulb goes on!



Light Bulb moments are the ones that save our lives.


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## rwoods (Jan 27, 2017)

I watched ole BBR's wedging video. No wonder his arms are twice as big as mine. I wasn't there, and besides I am just a firewood hack, but his sequencing was different than I would have expected. I did identify with his missed swings and tiring. Can't help but wonder if he had looked up more that he would have seen the grafted limb - can't say that seeing it would have changed anything except more looking up. Maybe that interlock was what made it so hard though I would have expected some noticeable swing action as he was whacking. He made a good point about the bad possibles of thinning the hinge. One of my bad and dangerous habits.

BBR seems a decent down to earth guy. Would be a bigger fan of his videos if they were shorter.

Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 27, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol,
> Ive only chaired about a dozen trees since 1981, but it's nice to know how they can be avoided. . Lol.


I'll take thick holding wood and inadequate openings for a $1000 please Alex...haha


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 27, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Good point Jamie about tree age. Some trees as you know have real thick growth rings, which are way more weaker and subject to splitting than some of the ultra fine grain stuff that we find once in a while.



The hardwoods down there are mainly bad. I say down there because I'm off the Alaska HWY this winter. Cottonwood is good when It gets big as thats when the rings tighten up but as for the other hardwoods; they don't get big.
Maple does, the problem with huge maple this the offset weight that can be a concern. but it is strong though.


----------



## Marshy (Jan 28, 2017)




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## Philbert (Jan 28, 2017)

That's a whole lot easier than trigonometry!

Philbert


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## Tenderfoot (Jan 28, 2017)

Marshy said:


> View attachment 554542


What book is this from?


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2017)

To Fell A Tree by Jeff Jepson


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## Tenderfoot (Jan 28, 2017)

Marshy said:


> To Fell A Tree by Jeff Jepson


Thanks. Would you consider it a worthy purchase for average joe?


----------



## Philbert (Jan 28, 2017)

Yes. 

Philbert


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> Thanks. Would you consider it a worthy purchase for average joe?


I would say yes, absolutely. I haven't read it yet though. Just thumbed through it and saw that and had to post it because we were talking about it like 5 pages ago. I'm working my way through Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent. Both were given to me at Xmas.


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## Philbert (Jan 28, 2017)

I think that '_To Fell A Tree_' is a better, all around book, especially for a beginner. Clear. Easy to read and understand.

Dent's book is well respected by professionals, but he goes into depth, with great detail, about cuts that most of us will never need to use.




JMHO

Philbert


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## Chris-PA (Jan 28, 2017)

Marshy said:


> View attachment 554542


Makes sense - it's the ratio of two similar triangles:



WL/D = CD/H


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## hseII (Jan 28, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> Thanks. Would you consider it a worthy purchase for average joe?



Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

My substandard skills have become mediocre because of this book alone.


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## hseII (Jan 28, 2017)

Philbert said:


> I think that '_To Fell A Tree_' is a better, all around book, especially for a beginner. Clear. Easy to read and understand.
> 
> Dent's book is well respected by professionals, but he goes into depth, with great detail, about cuts that most of us will never need to use.
> 
> ...



I agree completely.

Dent's discussion & photographs on bucking trees laying uphill, with compression wood due to laying over draws, etc., is very in depth, but some foundation is needed to grasp the points.

To Fell A Tree has been a good foundation for me: so much so that I have multiple copies of TFAT.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 28, 2017)

Another good publication is the Faller's and Buckers Handbook. Sometimes you can learn more from a book in a few hours than you can in 6 months hacking and slashing on your own.
In the end though, it's all about hard won experience. If it's in your blood chances are you will emerge thru the gauntlet relatively unscathed and still looking for more.


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## Philbert (Jan 28, 2017)

People learn in different ways: Books. Pictures. Line drawings. Videos. Hands on. Watching others. Mentors. Mistakes. Failures. Small successes. . . .

Different amounts at different times. 

As long as they are open to learning. 

Philbert


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 28, 2017)

Philbert said:


> That's a whole lot easier than trigonometry!
> 
> Philbert


Speaking of math, I'm in need again of a mathamagician.
Im making a 44 litre batch of bush beer and I need to know how much priming sugar I need if 750 ml takes one teaspoon. Priming sugar is what makes the co2 in the bottled refreshment, so I need the correct answer so that the bottles don't explode. Budweiser is a waste of water. Lol


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## KiwiBro (Jan 28, 2017)

44/.75=58.6667 tsp x 4.2 grams =246.4 grams


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 28, 2017)

Philbert said:


> People learn in different ways: Books. Pictures. Line drawings. Videos. Hands on. Watching others. Mentors. Mistakes. Failures. Small successes. . . .
> 
> Different amounts at different times.
> 
> ...


Very true! 
Wisdom is knowledge in action.


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2017)

KiwiBro said:


> 44/.75=58.6667 tsp x 4.2 grams =246.4 grams


453.6 grams in a pound so 0.543 lbs


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 28, 2017)

KiwiBro said:


> 44/.75=58.6667 tsp x 4.2 grams =246.4 grams





Marshy said:


> 453.6 grams in a pound so 0.543 lbs


Thanks for the quick answers fellas, I was hoping for and answer in volume as opposed to weight. Wonder what it would be in cups? My last batch was a little under carbed.
Sorry about getting off topic, but if I add too much sugar this thread could end up being a stickie. Lol


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## Tenderfoot (Jan 28, 2017)

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=teaspoons+to+cups


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> Thanks for the quick answers fellas, I was hoping for and answer in volume as opposed to weight. Wonder what it would be in cups? My last batch was a little under carbed.
> Sorry about getting off topic, but if I add too much sugar this thread could end up being a stickie. Lol


2-1/4 cups per lb so 1-1/8 cups.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 28, 2017)

hseII said:


> Yes.
> Yes.
> Yes.
> 
> My substandard skills have become mediocre because of this book alone.


 Why didn't you just ask and I would have wrote yout two books..lol
I quoted you last Wed night and started something pretty long and in depth, It started out about the diamond/triangle cut but it goes into how you go about the cuts, general cuts. Some real deal chit. I copied it for now, It's a tough post to make..... Maybe my toughest post ever.
Wedging is easy to talk about, but explaining 'the body' is Dam hard. 

Comming soon to a theatre near you


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## hseII (Jan 29, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Why didn't you just ask and I would have wrote yout two books..lol
> I quoted you last Wed night and started something pretty long and in depth, It started out about the diamond/triangle cut but it goes into how you go about the cuts, general cuts. Some real deal chit. I copied it for now, It's a tough post to make..... Maybe my toughest post ever.
> Wedging is easy to talk about, but explaining 'the body' is Dam hard.
> 
> Comming soon to a theatre near you



Please Share.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Makes sense - it's the ratio of two similar triangles:
> View attachment 554590
> 
> 
> WL/D = CD/H


 The "Triangles" will always be the same when W = H
(Width definition: Back of tree to back of undercut) Its always a 1 to 1 ratio
As long as lift is greater than offset displacement at a 1 to 1 ratio it will pass COG. Providing it's not branch heavy to the back side. Marshy worked out that exact example; 12" back cut to pivot + 1" lift and it was just under 5°. That could prove to be helpful for me considering I can use my 5° ; 10" K & H wedges by holding the bottom of the wedges and straight arming them in front of me with the inside plumb and one eye closed standing on one foot chewing Wrigely's Spearmint Gum; I can convert my 1 to 1 ratios to degrees based off of now knowing a 12" back cut to undercut at a 1" WL = 5° offset.
At a 6" wedging point to pivot, (sideways wedging) the degrees doubles to 10° and 2ft undercut to pivot would be 2.5 °. 
1" lift will correct them all to either plump or horizontal.
Or if they were all 5° then the '2ft backcut' would take a 2" lift and at a 6" wedging point a 1/2" would accomplish the same.

Judgment on Branch offset weight/weight of species, wind AND additional top sag 'if you created the lean ( eg. tall,small diameter sets back) VS angle and wedging point distance in conjunction with tecneque, wedges and axe
Is all relevant to experience.

Today's fun problem:
If it took Buckin' Billy a 2.4 " wedge lift to fell the tree. The back of tree to pivot was 2ft,
Based on a 12" back cut to pivot with a 1" WL = 5°
How many hits did it take Billy. .
Srry no that's not it...lol

How many degrees was the back lean he would have had to overcome?


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## Marshy (Jan 30, 2017)

Anyone read this yet? 
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-cutting-trees-down-or-are-just-bored.305842/


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Thnks..not yet..should take me a while


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> How many degrees was the back lean he would have had to overcome?



And what was Billy's middle name?

Philbert


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Philbert said:


> And what was Billy's middle name?
> 
> Philbert


So assuming we think Ray is his middle name I guess your are sayiing it's too easy to answer? It is pretty easy all right.
And the answer is?


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## Chris-PA (Jan 30, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Today's fun problem:
> If it took Buckin' Billy a 2.4 " wedge lift to fell the tree. The back of tree to pivot was 2ft,
> Based on a 12" back cut to pivot with a 1" WL = 5°
> How many hits did it take Billy. .
> ...


My assumption is that the tree fell when he got the COG just over center, therefore the entire 2.4" of wedge lift was what was required (11.3deg) 

Still, this is 2017 and we don't do word problems this way anymore, so I have adapted it to more modern expectations:

Today's fun problem:
It took Singin' Sailly (who used to be Billy) a 2.4 " wedge lift to fell the tree. The back of tree to pivot was 2ft,
Based on a 12" back cut to pivot with a 1" WL = 5°
Sally had to had to overcome 11.3deg of back lean.

How did Sally feel about having to hit the wedge with a hammer? Please discuss, there are no wrong answers.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Please discuss, there are no wrong answers.


So 6° is right too?
Now we are realy making headway.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 30, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> My assumption is that the tree fell when he got the COG just over center, therefore the entire 2.4" of wedge lift was what was required (11.3deg)
> 
> Still, this is 2017 and we don't do word problems this way anymore, so I have adapted it to more modern expectations:
> 
> ...


My Answer:
Nowhere near as bad as the displaced Spotted Owl and its chicks that just lost their home.


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## hseII (Jan 30, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> My assumption is that the tree fell when he got the COG just over center, therefore the entire 2.4" of wedge lift was what was required (11.3deg)
> 
> Still, this is 2017 and we don't do word problems this way anymore, so I have adapted it to more modern expectations:
> 
> ...



The answer is Jack.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 30, 2017)

I forgot my drawing:


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2017)

'42'

Philbert


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm going with False.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> I forgot my drawing:
> 
> View attachment 554975


Forgot your drawing...lol
How about 1" WL = 5° at a 12" wedge point to pivot ×2 = 10°
10% of 5° = .5 × 4 points =2° total 12°
12° ÷2 = 6°

Whatever! I guess we are both right
Everybody is right, there are no wrong answers. This is the good morning thread


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## rwoods (Jan 30, 2017)

Do I get a participant trophy? Ron


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## Erik B (Jan 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> Do I get a participant trophy? Ron


@rwoods Only if you are a millenial


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## ncpete (Jan 30, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> The "Triangles" will always be the same when W = H
> (Width definition: Back of tree to back of undercut) Its always a 1 to 1 ratio
> 
> How many degrees was the back lean he would have had to overcome?



too damn many?


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## fearofpavement (Jan 30, 2017)

This thread has been interesting to see all the different ways to skin a cat.
It also brings to light how the considerations vary depending on the end result desired. ie, fallers trying to save the wood, tree service guys trying to save the structure, line clearance guys trying to save the wires. etc.
I'm in the structure saving category. Nearly every tree I fell is within striking distance of something expensive. I have absolutely no concern what happens to the "logs" as they will either be firewood or get burned depending on specie. I typically tie off every tree I fell unless it is sectioned out. Yes, I use wedges but while a wedge can influence a tree, it does not have the same level of certainty as having a line in the tree. I typically place a bull rope (rhymes with pull rope, lol) about 2/3 of the way up the tree. This can vary but that's approximate. I tension the line (the truck driver does on my instruction) before I make any cuts on the tree. I check the tension by shaking the rope and can "feel" when the tension is where I want it. I then make the face cut. I will usually go back and check line tension again and have it snugged up a bit more. I then go back and make the back cut. I signal for pull as desired during this process by indicating distance to move the truck. (usually in less than one foot increments). When the tree starts to move, I give the "go for it" signal at which time the driver rapidly backs up. (I always try to have the driver viewing me through the windshield so she is pulling backwards unless we're using a pulley block.) It's not uncommon to spend an hour or more getting one tree on the ground. So nothing like falling in the forest. Another difference is that every single tree MUST go exactly on target. It's a nice feeling when they hit the ground. (and often the homeowner is observing and they're always visibly pleased as well)


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## rwoods (Jan 30, 2017)

Erik B said:


> @rwoods Only if you are a millenial



Too old. However, I did receive a diecast toy tractor as a consolation prize once when I was about 4 years old. I came in last in a foot race with older boys. My older brother was furious. Looking back, I believe it was a leftover prize from not having enough entries for the age group I should have been competing in. Never got to play with it - next older brother threw it at the upset brother and it broke. Scarred me for life I suppose.

On a more serious note, folks who haven't should read the first post in this thread in the arborist forum: 
*Read this if you are new to cutting trees down (or are just bored). *

Sorry I don't know how to link it. 

Ron


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## cantoo (Jan 30, 2017)

fearofpavement, actions like that will never get you on you tube. You'll never be famous.


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> On a more serious note, folks who haven't should read the first post in this thread in the arborist forum:
> *Read this if you are new to cutting trees down (or are just bored).*


http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-cutting-trees-down-or-are-just-bored.305842/

Philbert


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## fearofpavement (Jan 30, 2017)

cantoo said:


> fearofpavement, actions like that will never get you on you tube. You'll never be famous.


Yup, expect I'll never be famous and if I'm in the news I don't want it to have anything to do with dropping a tree through a house.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 30, 2017)

Where are the safe spaces for trees? It's unconstitutional. And stuff.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> This thread has been interesting to see all the different ways to skin a cat.
> It also brings to light how the considerations vary depending on the end result desired. ie, fallers trying to save the wood, tree service guys trying to save the structure, line clearance guys trying to save the wires. etc.
> I'm in the structure saving category. Nearly every tree I fell is within striking distance of something expensive. I have absolutely no concern what happens to the "logs" as they will either be firewood or get burned depending on specie. I typically tie off every tree I fell unless it is sectioned out. Yes, I use wedges but while a wedge can influence a tree, it does not have the same level of certainty as having a line in the tree. I typically place a bull rope (rhymes with pull rope, lol) about 2/3 of the way up the tree. This can vary but that's approximate. I tension the line (the truck driver does on my instruction) before I make any cuts on the tree. I check the tension by shaking the rope and can "feel" when the tension is where I want it. I then make the face cut. I will usually go back and check line tension again and have it snugged up a bit more. I then go back and make the back cut. I signal for pull as desired during this process by indicating distance to move the truck. (usually in less than one foot increments). When the tree starts to move, I give the "go for it" signal at which time the driver rapidly backs up. (I always try to have the driver viewing me through the windshield so she is pulling backwards unless we're using a pulley block.) It's not uncommon to spend an hour or more getting one tree on the ground. So nothing like falling in the forest. Another difference is that every single tree MUST go exactly on target. It's a nice feeling when they hit the ground. (and often the homeowner is observing and they're always visibly pleased as well)


Good post!
I worked with a Certified Utility Arborist (CUA) contracting for BC Hdro. Every time home owner would come around, like if we were cutting there tap, he would pull out his veneer tooth and act special needs
talking with a speach impediment.

"WA out hera twimmin' twees, yeah..twimmin' twee's for Hydwo. ..for BC Hydwo." ...Spit would be flying too.. haha
Too funny! When if you ever get a chance
to do work with out structures then make sure you find the limitations of that species. Like you said , it just doesn't happen! Like a guy working on the line.
We all have to live in the 100% rule. Unfortunately there is more room for complacently with fallers. It's a fast scale.
Some (me included) take more chances on our very own lives than you ever would ever skylining over a glass green house.
Makes no sense, as everything in life can be fixed exept death. Sometimes we don't pay attention to being 100%


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## fearofpavement (Jan 30, 2017)

One advantage of falling in the forest is that you won't find yourself doing this on a regular basis.


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## fearofpavement (Jan 30, 2017)

I sorta retired from climbing trees. Just doing some for my own properties anymore. It's funny how if you're 70' above the ground, from up there the ground is about 1/4 mile down.


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## rwoods (Jan 30, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> One advantage of falling in the forest is that you won't find yourself doing this on a regular basis.
> View attachment 555015



You won't ever find me doing that anywhere. Ron


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## Chris-PA (Jan 30, 2017)

rwoods said:


> You won't ever find me doing that anywhere. Ron


That a big "Nope" here too!


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Philbert said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-cutting-trees-down-or-are-just-bored.305842/
> 
> Philbert


 Thanks man, may as well get me a coffee while you are at it..haha
Thanks for hanging out Philbert
None of us can hang out by own own selves.
The more the merrier
Simply because I can't stand myself.
Lol


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## Philbert (Jan 30, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> One advantage of falling in the forest is that you won't find yourself doing this on a regular basis.





rwoods said:


> You won't ever find me doing that anywhere.





Chris-PA said:


> That a big "Nope" here too!



Add me to that list!

Philbert


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Somebody is going to flunk out of cutting school LMAO
This is all going to be on the test on Friday

Next problem:..lol

Ok...Saw cerf is 7mm.
8" tree ( 20CM) with a 50% undercut sets back ..BUT you got your saw out.
The tree was near balanced (sky born)
Tree is 60 ft tall, what's the offset?

This is not for my benifit people,
Some of us have an experience overide.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 30, 2017)

Although I am having fun.
Honesty! This is the only thread I have learnt something in three years on here.
sad to say. Like Philbert just said a bit ago,
"We all learn different, there are a lot of different ways to learn and IF you want to learn you will learn" . I don't care about porting a saw, that's not my profession.
However trouble sooting is. After 27 yrs pro and 25yrs doing it 'youself' , when it comes to trouble sooting and clearences,
You don't want a mechanic running it up on a bench cold with no bar and chain saying 'it's good'! I think, I learnt a few things about myself, and a few things that triped my brain. I love to get back to the theory because math is life; even if it just means counting your money.


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## hseII (Jan 30, 2017)

Erik B said:


> @rwoods Only if you are a millenial



I think he has been a millennial 3.75 times.


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## hseII (Jan 30, 2017)

cantoo said:


> fearofpavement, actions like that will never get you on you tube. You'll never be famous.



Although I'm different locations, he & I share the same goals: to have the trees hit the ground, & nothing spendy.


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## hseII (Jan 30, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> One advantage of falling in the forest is that you won't find yourself doing this on a regular basis.
> View attachment 555015



I didn't know you climbed Mr. H.


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## fearofpavement (Jan 30, 2017)

hseII said:


> I didn't know you climbed Mr. H.


I won't do it on a tree job anymore, just for myself. I'm too old and fat nowadays.


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## hseII (Jan 31, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> I won't do it on a tree job anymore, just for myself. I'm too old and fat nowadays.



But I'm sure you have advice concerning climbing: the reason I'm sure of it is because you are "seasoned". 

Old is relative.


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## fearofpavement (Jan 31, 2017)

Here's me up in a "leaner" from storm damage. This thing was really hung up in another tree and needed to get freed up.



This is what the bottom of the tree looked like.


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 31, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Somebody is going to flunk out of cutting school LMAO
> This is all going to be on the test on Friday
> 
> Next problem:..lol
> ...



4'.

Am I close?


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## Chris-PA (Jan 31, 2017)

7mm = 0.276"

4"/0.276" = 14.5

60'/14.5 = 4.1'


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## old CB (Jan 31, 2017)

I was busy, then out of town for a bit, and didn’t see this thread grow. So a couple of things from someone late to the discussion.

1. For anyone who’s not a well-seasoned woodsman, get yourself a copy of Jeff Jepson’s book, To Fell a Tree (mentioned earlier). It’s simple and understandable, and will guide you through most situations you’re likely to encounter.

If you’re going into serious tree work, get Gerald Beranek’s book, The Fundamentals of General Tree Work. It’s the bible, and I’ve gotten more from it than from Dent’s book (which is also very good). Jerry also has videos for sale, and all his stuff is excellent. For climbing work—he’s the guy to pay attention to.

2. Re: the Coos Bay cut mentioned earlier, Beranek’s Coos Bay is different. For large diameter leaners I bore cut, then trip the last bit from behind & a little below. But for smaller heavy leaners, say 20” dbh or less, I use Beranek’s Coos Bay. He points out that when a guy told him about it years back, he thought the guy was nuts—but he found it reliable, and it is. (Like every method, try it first in uncritical situations and have your escape route clear, etc. until you gain experience and confidence.) Diagram attached below.

This Coos Bay has no directional ability—you basically send the tree where it wants to go. But it goes there fine, as long as you have sound stump wood —nothing hollow, punky, or otherwise compromised. Also, you must know the tree’s favor, as the center strip of the cut needs to be lined up in that direction. There are three cuts, and at some point during the third one the tree just pops and breaks clean. As always, you need adequate saw, sharp chain, and no hesitation on the throttle. How wide to make that center strip may be a matter of experience—Beranek says to cut about 1/3 of the diameter from each side, but that would leave a strip 1/3 of diameter remaining, which is beefier than I do it.

I’m no artist, so sorry if my saw looks like a duck-billed Volkswagen on its side.


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## NSMaple1 (Jan 31, 2017)

^ I've done something like that before a few times, except I started with a typical notch on the leaning side first. Not a very big one though.

No idea if that was bad or good, and no books read to get there - just what I did. Do I need to dig out my flame suit?

Must try the 3 cut now. Well, when I get into the woods again...


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## fearofpavement (Jan 31, 2017)

So there's no face cut on that one?


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> 4'.
> 
> Am I close?





Chris-PA said:


> 7mm = 0.276"
> 
> 4"/0.276" = 14.5
> 
> 60'/14.5 = 4.1'


Going for extra credits for the metric to standard conversion are we.

Ok let see what I come up with.
25.4 mm per inch (2.54 CM)
I'm very unorthodox, I do a lot in my head, I will round off to 25mm × 4 =100
4×7 =28% or 1mm = >4%
>.280"
Looks good chris! Gold star..lol

OK now I'll try the problem
7mm saw cerf 20CM tree

30. 48 cm per foot × 60 ft tree
I'll round up to 30.5 × 60
3×6 =18 add 2 zeros
1800 , 60 ÷ 2 = 30
1830
What I rounded up, I'll subtract now
2 X 60 × 120/ hundreds cm 1.2 cm
1830 - 1.2 cm = 1828.8
Tree Dia 20cm ÷ 2 = 10 cm
7mm trunk offset for ever 10cm climb
(1 to 1 ratio)
1828.8 ÷ 10 move the decimal up.
I'll just round up again and subtract the 1.2cm at the top
183 x 7mm =?
100×7= 700
7x8= 56 add zero 560
3x7 =21
1281mm
The tree was
120mm 1.2 cm shorter
1/10 of a ratio .7cm / 70 mm
1/100 of a ratio =.07 X 2 = .14cm /14 mm
70 + 14 = 84 mm
1281 - 84 = 119.7 cm
We will make it an even 120cm or 1.2 metres is that what you guys got?
Let's see? Round up to 40" per mertre
40" ; thats 4" per "deck" (decimetre; 10cm)
48" 4ft.

...Wait. ..A tree is not cylindrical It's a cone.
That's why we always measure our wood.

0× 8 ÷ 2 = 4" average
48- 4 = 44" 3' 8

Of course you guys did all that and just added it back on for top sag allowance.

In most cases with green trees you wouldn't be able to
wedge that close to the hinge. I did manage to do a pine very similar in December doing beetle kill. It was in a tight stand of dominate 11" pine, top was full of ice crystals and the top 20ft was bending hard.
Yellow ceder and Hemlock a lot shorter I can't move them. Wedging sideways an Inch and a half fron the hinge. If I can and it's really hard then as soon as it opens up the front I will stick one in the front then go back to the side to finish it.
You can always cut another cerf out of one side *lowside* on small diameter
Lowside because once you bottom out you wedge you can drive you second one sideways this sequence it doesn't catch on the rigde of the extra cerf and keeps you working from the high side. Unfortunately sometimes you can pop the top holding wood. I use the K & H 10" because they are designed for sideways wedging with rounder corners at the top.
and are about 3° less than an 8" wedge.
It works for me but others may want to think about modifying a short one by rounding and lowering the degrees.

Ok extra credit for usable volume?
TPF & TPI and (taper per foot/inch) and usable volume; now that would impress me. That's Madhatte area (no pun) I did learn something off him a few months ago. That it's not all about converting cone to cylinder (average) but they may calculate usable board ft (MBF) Obviously this tree is too small. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 31, 2017)




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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> So there's no face cut on that one?


Hey he said he wasn't a very good artist 
Get off his case...haha


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 31, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> So there's no face cut on that one?


Would not need one on a leaner if cut the sides like that ,i would be worried about it leaning one way or the other and setting on the bar though .


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 31, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Would not need one on a leaner if cut the sides like that ,i would be worried about it leaning one way or the other and setting on the bar though .


Edit :

I personally would T-cut coos bay it so did not set sideways like just cutting the 2 sides .


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

Right brian, that was my concern, it's overkill. I'll quote your tangles in PNW hardwoods (like I said I was going to).
And we will take it from there.
That's just sloppy with no control and totally unnecessary. I'll finish when I quote your beautiful work. DONE!


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 31, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Right brian, that was my concern, it's overkill. I'll quote your tangles in PNW hardwoods (like I said I was going to).
> And we will take it from there.
> That's just sloppy with no control and totally unnecessary. I'll finish when I quote your beautiful work. DONE!


Am just a back yard hack sir ,but when given good advise i suck it in .


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## Marshy (Jan 31, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


>


I feel like I fell of the wagon. Quite the amount of stuff I haven't read yet...


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## Chris-PA (Jan 31, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> ...Wait. ..A tree is not cylindrical It's a cone.


 Look at that, they are!


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## Chris-PA (Jan 31, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Edit :
> 
> I personally would T-cut coos bay it so did not set sideways like just cutting the 2 sides .View attachment 555161


I gotta say those cuts make a lot of sense to me and I'm going to give them a try. The triangular one seems like it would be easier for a "Dutchman" like me to align!


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## old CB (Jan 31, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> So there's no face cut on that one?


Nope. Just a strip of holding wood through the center of the bole lined up in the direction of fall.

Yep, looks nuts, but I've never had it fail.

Jerry B talks about maybe needing a wedge in one side to counteract side lean, but that just says to me that you mis-judged the favor of the tree.


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## old CB (Jan 31, 2017)

If I was looking at these cuts on paper (screen) and had no experience with them, I'd definitely choose either the T or the pyramidal scheme that TRX250 shows in post #499. They do look better in form than Beranek's, the one I posted. But I learned his first, and it works for me. Three cuts rather than the four required in placing a face. More efficient and less time at the stump.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 31, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> I gotta say those cuts make a lot of sense to me and I'm going to give them a try. The triangular one seems like it would be easier for a "Dutchman" like me to align!


I like the ease of lining the triangle up over the T also.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Alder around here is one of the worst species that will chair out when they lean ,I nip all those in the sides .
> These has about a 30 degree lean and went over slow ,the side cuts look like a triangle to the face ,then go in with a reg back cut ,i could have chased these more and got less pull ,but the logs may have cracked when hit the ground going faster .
> View attachment 549822
> View attachment 549823
> View attachment 549824


Here is some of Brian's triangle work for interst. Nicely done and you don't need anymore. People, this is on an Alder tree that grows 3ft a season in its first 20 years. They have very wide grow rings.
It lives in a rain forest and they are firecrackers, widow makers, they call them. As the tree grows the outer part becomes the inside (the heart wood)
The Hart wood is the hardest and is brittle, generally in most species.
This being the principal; the sapwood is the strongest wood and WILL cause the barberchairing. If it workes on species such as Alder that grow so fast with a wide grow ring heart...then it will work.
So the heart on some of these fast growing species are wide grained and still young but it still works.

Now I got that BS out of the way;
Let's cretique Brian's work.

Looks awesome! My only concern as a guy that fells that species from time to time is, I'm wondering if you are not free handing the backcut? and not putting your dogs in the corner of mouth? (high side) Or maybe your are just not that sharp? Anyway I don't want to pick on your mental capacity. .j/k ..now we are even.

Brother! From a home boy to a home boy across the border.Awsome stuff (pro tip time bro) position yourself, high side between the back and the mouth of the undercut. Reach back and stick your dogs in high side mouth, cut half your triangle. Swap hands and dog in the triangle point ..(middle of the back) and finish your triangle. and set your dogs at the "finish position" corner of mouth (always high side) and pull evenly.
Lay that chit out
...it takes a few seconds.
You can cut the back side blind. Feet don't move. 
That one's for your Birthday ..well we all have B- days?

I am never worried about
getting hurt but I do take it personally when it splits 5 ft up and they want multiples of 8s and 10s

You know what I'm talking about.
It's not a race between it barberchairing up its a race between a split. Running a fine line.
95% of falling on the west coast, I ring the sapwood, just in case there is something you don't know about

*EDIT I fix half my Dam mistakes...now I need a nap


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

BTW Brian, that is a flow transition ^^^
You don't move your feet and your chain doesn't stop moving. 1, 2 and back to 1


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## fearofpavement (Jan 31, 2017)

Man, is that Latin or some other language I don't know? lol.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

old CB said:


> If I was looking at these cuts on paper (screen) and had no experience with them, I'd definitely choose either the T or the pyramidal scheme that TRX250 shows in post #499. They do look better in form than Beranek's, the one I posted. But I learned his first, and it works for me. Three cuts rather than the four required in placing a face. More efficient and less time at the stump.


This is not a pro thread but there is pro advice, nothing needs to be done in a timely fashion. 'You' are a long time dead.
Less cuts for a faster time? There are better ways....why not put an undercut In and keep your holding wood? 
I think most people promote saftey,


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## hseII (Jan 31, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> Am just a back yard hack sir ,but when given good advise i suck it in .



Same Hear. 



With the triangle Coots Bay, I see the potential of the holding wood splitting before the "normal" 10% of the dia. is reached: that was why I mentioned adding the bore cut to set the hinge. 

The original context was in discussing a back leaner, but the same logic,( or ignorance), applies here.

I want a solid hinge that is not heavy or light on either side of the stump, but acceptable for what's needed on that tree. My concern is,( because I've had learners go before I wanted them to), that the back cut will get to a certain point, the hinge gives due to the above pressure, & the hinge will be insufficient for the intended lay.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 31, 2017)

fearofpavement said:


> Man, is that Latin or some other language I don't know? lol.


kanuckiestainian?


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## Marshy (Feb 1, 2017)

Trx250r180 said:


> I like the ease of lining the triangle up over the T also.


Some times I do a modified T type cut where I cut one side of the T's backcut (down hill side if is got side lean) and pound a wedge in, then cut the other side of the T and leave only about an inch of wood between the two back cuts, sometimes less. It helps on smaller trees where you want a wedge and don't have much room.


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## Marshy (Feb 1, 2017)

Bored the face on this one but forgot to raid the bore to the height of the back cut.


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## Trx250r180 (Feb 1, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Here is some of Brian's triangle work for interst. Nicely done and you don't need anymore. People, this is on an Alder tree that grows 3ft a season in its first 20 years. They have very wide grow rings.
> It lives in a rain forest and they are firecrackers, widow makers, they call them. As the tree grows the outer part becomes the inside (the heart wood)
> The Hart wood is the hardest and is brittle, generally in most species.
> This being the principal; the sapwood is the strongest wood and WILL cause the barberchairing. If it workes on species such as Alder that grow so fast with a wide grow ring heart...then it will work.
> ...


All freehand cuts good eye ,i was using the tip of my 32 inch bar for the alder cuts ,on fir i use the dogs ,a few of those alders leaked water all over my saw ,hollow inside ,usef the end of the bar to keep me as far from the tree as possible in case the back blew out ,chain was sharp ,was full skip .404 , i cut part throttle when freehand ,that may make the cuts look rough.the hollow ones broke when hit the ground.


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 1, 2017)

Marshy said:


> View attachment 555235
> 
> 
> Bored the face on this one but forgot to raid the bore to the height of the back cut.


What's up with the massive dutchman? Just kidding. 
Don't be cutting down trees just for the sake of cutting them down. We gotta get our fresh air from somewhere.


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## Marshy (Feb 1, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> What's up with the massive dutchman? Just kidding.
> Don't be cutting down trees just for the sake of cutting them down. We gotta get our fresh air from somewhere.


----------



## hseII (Feb 1, 2017)

Marshy said:


>



How does your 285 compare to a 288/390?

I had a chance to buy a complete non-runner back in the summer & passed.


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## Marshy (Feb 1, 2017)

I don't have any time behind a 390/288 so I'm unsure. It a good running saw, slightly better after a base gasket delete.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 1, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> My only concern as a guy that fells that species from time to time is, I'm wondering if you are not free handing the backcut? and not putting your dogs in the corner of mouth? (high side)


Can you explain this further - is using the dogs simply to get a faster cut, or is it to control how the bar sweeps in?


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 1, 2017)

hseII said:


> Obviously the tree Brian mentions is not one to experiment on, but I'd like to try the "steering a tree", in the woods,( read no obstacles, or barns to mash), by step cutting under the face, as @NORTHMAN Logging, you, & others discussed in another thread.
> 
> I see that as being something to add to the toolbox, provided judicious care is taken, once the experience is gained.
> 
> ...


I dug this up from page 9 that I've been aware of. I also dug up Brian's triangle pic from page 4 yesterday.
Some may call me a procrastinater and others a great planner of my work.
I'm always planning for 'tomorrow'.

I think you and Brian are a little humble and make a little light of your "levels" .
Falling cuts are often the focus but make up a small percentage of the big picture.
Although a must to achieve and maintenance exeptable stump quality.
Its how you go about the failing. Decision makeing skills is huge.
You guys show great common sense and maturity. There is always a fear when things are written on the Internet out this trade, Just because something is said doesn't mean it's chiseled in stone and it's a 'cure all' we after all, don't monitor each other's common sense when tasks are played out. One guy was asking if we could give him a 100% answer on here?
That scares the heck out of me.
I wanted to use this opportunity to complement the good, (and there are many)and bring it back home to the founndation where the focus needs to be.
There *WERE* many guys that *WERE* Absolute surgeons on the saw. That doesn't make ANYONE a good faller.

I'm always open for any 'side bar' convo.
from anyone,
But let's be clear, advice may influence decisions but it can't dictate one's decision. Saftey is everyone's responsibility.

Well you are very polite
Nice hanging out.



hseII said:


> Same Hear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right, like a said before, we all find our styles. Tiger Woods was on top of everyone and took 18 months out to reconstruct his swing. Maybe he wasn't talking about Golf now that I think of it.
Sure we was. I've changed things years ago on the advice of another that were better for me then but now I think it's time to change back because I've changed as well changed other things. I think I'm going to start doing my angle cut on my Humboldt first now as I once did. I set from the front now and not the corner. 
I still have to do it right anyway but setting from the front gives my a natural reference of level to tip.
Regardless of which one you do first you got to do it right as the first cut sets everything up. Looking back, You can't tip level from the side on a regular basis with out a flat cut you can reference off of so you chase the cut to hit your aim and you are left with a çockeyed undercut.

If your tree has a forward and a low lean my concern with boring from the high side is getting pinched. It can be a tough way to test the waters. Having said that, cutting any of your holding wood on such a tree will make matters worse such as you speak, unnecessary! I'm all for that you are saying. I'd try tickle the shell from the bottom to test the side bind when you have the maximum amount of meat. If its feeling good then cut 'half' your 'tee' or at the least ring the botton sap wood. Then work it from the top to complete your objective. Peal the top evenly cuting down and not through the back. Just a scenerio; some food for thought. 
It's certainly not advisable to cut either side of your holding wood or even tapering the top when you have side bind.
For your best bet is to use the Johnny HMT, and set it after the undercut and all the way to the bottom you want to hold all the holding wood as long as you can. You are not booting the tree you're holding the tree. I mentioned about taking a few kerfs out and creating a vertical face.
You can actually bore that face. It can be your first cut If you want; if you are not dealing with too much side bind.
If you don't want it to look like such a big back step, you don't have to utilize the whole 4". You can also bore the thickness of your holding wood you want to peal and it doesn't have to go to the bottom to help


,


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## ncpete (Feb 1, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I don't have any time behind a 390/288 so I'm unsure. It a good running saw, slightly better after a base gasket delete.



I miss the snow in NNY!
Nice running saws - thanks for the quick vid from the North Country.


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## Marshy (Feb 1, 2017)

ncpete said:


> I miss the snow in NNY!
> Nice running saws - thanks for the quick vid from the North Country.


Thanks! We just had a small bit of lake effect and got a foot of snow. We were on the very edge of the band, 20 mins north got 44" of snow in about 48hrs.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 1, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> This guy was extremely lucky!





Chris-PA said:


> Can you explain this further - is using the dogs simply to get a faster cut, or is it to control how the bar sweeps in?


 I set the angle, could be one dog in the tree, proper filing/sharpening is the only thing that keeps it straight, the dogs will only make it bind with round filing. Sweeping of the bar is positioning. Positioning sets up the flow and the dogs control the flow and the speed. Location! Location! Location!
This young guy above (he is not a faller yet) On a few different threads and ALL the people that have commented including myself; nobody have mentioned that he he didn't even have an undercut In that front leg 1/3 of the tree. He actually would have been safer had he not put an undercut In ithe tree at all (Not that is the answer, but factual)
The tree was sagging forward for over 12 sec. IF you flip back between 54 & 56 seconds you will see the movment start.
With the hollow structure and undercut on the lower 2/3 of the tree, it contorted
and blow up as it was allowed to sage on that side. Education is everything.
I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, I feel I have a responsibility to tell people indirectly what not to do (hopefully). The rest? The majority should be put to note for prehaps a future reference. That may be 20 yrs from now and it falls into play.
"The light bulb moments" I had one from Bob Walker that took me 17 yrs to answer, but I answered it to myself when It was my time.

Let's talk about being out of position, missing steps and/or out of sequence.

About 'the vidio';
Certain steps we just can't miss, like looking up, planing. It's a system that has a back up for a back up (saftey net)
If you do miss a step or need to miss a step to overcome a falling difficulty then you have your net. Out of sequence is missed steps and missed nets The only piece standing on that tree was where he didn't put the undercut. If he would have had a back strap then no problem. Another saftey net that I always use and that's ringing the sapwood as soon as you can on large diameter or leaners. In this event, his azz needed to be backing up the hill and no jerky actions. As soon as he could reach his cut line from tip to mouth corner he needed to thin the shell out then go to the back one handed if need be, doged in looking up and staying in top position. Often it's the other way around and I would finish standing at the back up the hill and saftey trail dictates. (Saftey trail that he didn't know about) The way of the land and a few things tip me of that the tree may have had a rope in it.


The position of the corner allows the flow and fast pull off the pivot. Apart from the reasons why we do it for wood and trunk failure , often with Hemlock snags, if you stop the flow, you stop the sag and you snap the top. You just don't do it. There is no free lunch on a steep hill.

You also need to file for the dogs VS power and it is better for you hands over time.
Guys that block wood may file a little now aggressively in order to tip cut.


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## bitzer (Feb 2, 2017)

The no face coos bay is how they cut leaners before the power head days. Chop both side until it goes.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 2, 2017)

bitzer said:


> The no face coos bay is how they cut leaners before the power head days. Chop both side until it goes.



I did not know that. Makes sense.
This chit has all been past down, really nothing new other than trending, awarness basically. One that comes to mind here is rain fall. I have heard some violent slides. One of the best big wood fallers I know, he lost his dad in a slide in the 80'z
Getting any weather yet or still warm?
Has been about 42F all week up the AK HWY. Sure has change in 10 yrs. Hard to do business.
.


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## bitzer (Feb 2, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> I did not know that. Makes sense.
> This chit has all been past down, really nothing new other than trending, awarness basically. One that comes to mind here is rain fall. I have heard some violent slides. One of the best big wood fallers I know, he lost his dad in a slide in the 80'z
> Getting any weather yet or still warm?
> Has been about 42F all week up the AK HWY. Sure has change in 10 yrs. Hard to do business.
> .


Yep pretty sure we have just adapted several 1000 year old cutting styles to the equipment we have now. The physics of it hasn't changed. I'd say logging is the oldest profession. Then came the soiled doves to keep them from killing each other on Sundays. We had a long stretch almost two weeks of upper 30s and low 40s and rain. We usually get a few days of January thaw, but this was bad. Luckily the swamp I was cutting had so much frost it never really came out and I was working while others sat on their hands. Back to winter as usual this week. Single digits tonight.


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 2, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Yep pretty sure we have just adapted several 1000 year old cutting styles to the equipment we have now. The physics of it hasn't changed. I'd say logging is the oldest profession. Then came the soiled doves to keep them from killing each other on Sundays. We had a long stretch almost two weeks of upper 30s and low 40s and rain. We usually get a few days of January thaw, but this was bad. Luckily the swamp I was cutting had so much frost it never really came out and I was working while others sat on their hands. Back to winter as usual this week. Single digits tonight.


Bitzer, sounds like you've been cutting Silver Maple lately. The ones I cut mostly had multiple trunks out of the stump.
Lots of mosquitoes when cut in the summer.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 2, 2017)

^^I should say one of the best big wood faller on the BC coast. The guy ended up in a fast running Creek and almost drowned
He go pulled out from a longline (helicopter and could barely hold on.
Ok ..so he's cutting this Cedar and stand ing on this few inch stub that he cut off.
He is in the middle of the tree and he gets pinched...he can't get his saw out so he jumps off. Saw comes out. He hops back on and starts cutting and gets pinched again. Hops off and saw comes out...wondering WTF is going on? Hops back up it starts binding again, he's pissed off and starts getting aggressive.
It cuts through and he goes rolling down the hill. (He was standing on a 'sucker' it started from the inside of the tree and grew underground and back up on the outside. So he hits the bottom and looks up and the tree is comming down...crazy.
This grandfather was killed on the hill too. He quit about three year ago when two guys he broke in were killed in one Summer


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## Philbert (Feb 2, 2017)

bitzer said:


> The no face coos bay is how they cut leaners before the power head days. Chop both side until it goes.


Imagine that it would be hard to do a bore cut with an axe . . . 

Philbert


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 2, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> ^^I should say one of the best big wood faller on the BC coast. The guy ended up in a fast running Creek and almost drowned
> He go pulled out from a longline (helicopter and could barely hold on.
> Ok ..so he's cutting this Cedar and stand ing on this few inch stub that he cut off.
> He is in the middle of the tree and he gets pinched...he can't get his saw out so he jumps off. Saw comes out. He hops back on and starts cutting and gets pinched again. Hops off and saw comes out...wondering WTF is going on? Hops back up it starts binding again, he's pissed off and starts getting aggressive.
> ...


Reminds me of the BC faller who was killed by a three foot cedar when he thought his 2100 could cut faster than the tree could fall with just a backcut.
I think I could do that though with my 385 if I could summon the balls, but I'd rather have a vagina, because those things can take a real pounding. Lol


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 2, 2017)

If I smack an aged cedar realy hard, then I won't putt an undercut In It. Cranked downhill.


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## Trx250r180 (Feb 3, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> You also need to file for the dogs VS power and it is better for you hands over time.
> Guys that block wood may file a little now aggressively in order to tip cut.


Like this for the dogs ? I notice the more up and down i do the side ,the less grabby it is .


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## svk (Feb 3, 2017)

How would you guys suggest cutting a tree like this to put it on the ground without surprises? I just want to fall it towards the lean. The cross hatched is the assumed depth of rot judging by the punky wood on the outside. It's about an 18" aspen.


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## rwoods (Feb 3, 2017)

For you BBR fans, begin at 5:15. 



Ron


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## ncpete (Feb 3, 2017)

rwoods said:


> For you BBR fans, begin at 5:15.
> 
> 
> 
> Ron



Mac 10-10 --- running one hell of a bar, it would seem, for a 54cc saw?


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 4, 2017)

svk said:


> How would you guys suggest cutting a tree like this to put it on the ground without surprises? I just want to fall it towards the lean. The cross hatched is the assumed depth of rot judging by the punky wood on the outside. It's about an 18" aspen.
> 
> View attachment 555847


I'd just treat it as any other traditional tree. Place your undercut and saw in the backcut with no hesitation.
If in doubt, I'd be asking Golickit or Mandy Crack. Those guys are the real deal.


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## rwoods (Feb 4, 2017)

ncpete said:


> Mac 10-10 --- running one hell of a bar, it would seem, for a 54cc saw?



He has some other videos of that little 10-10 cutting some greater than bar length softwoods. 

I like the guy and hope he doesn't get hurt making those videos. In this one he interrupts his retreat to dust off the camera then continues to a safe distance. Maybe he was already at a safe distance but it doesn't look like it. 

Ron


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## Chris-PA (Feb 4, 2017)

ncpete said:


> Mac 10-10 --- running one hell of a bar, it would seem, for a 54cc saw?


Those McCulloch engineers knew how to get power out of an engine. My 56cc McCinderblock (SE3420, PM605) is the successor to that engine design and pulls a 24" bar surprisingly well - it's a practical, usable combination and that's the bar I keep on it.


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## ncpete (Feb 4, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> Those McCulloch engineers knew how to get power out of an engine. My 56cc McCinderblock (SE3420, PM605) is the successor to that engine design and pulls a 24" bar surprisingly well - it's a practical, usable combination and that's the bar I keep on it.


this has me looking for one, casually. Had I known their strengths 13 years ago, would have made efforts to save my dad's old 10-10 from the yard sale mom held to clear out garage and basement when she moved south after his passing. Was able to save some old hand tools, but never gave much thought to *** then - also sort of figured one of my brother's would have scored these, having lived much closer.


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## svk (Feb 4, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> I'd just treat it as any other traditional tree. Place your undercut and saw in the backcut with no hesitation.
> If in doubt, I'd be asking Golickit or Mandy Crack. Those guys are the real deal.


Thanks. 

Bore and trigger or just traditional back cut? It isn't a heavy leaner.


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## svk (Feb 4, 2017)

ncpete said:


> Mac 10-10 --- running one hell of a bar, it would seem, for a 54cc saw?


I believe all of his saws are worked over. I know my 54 cc Mac is powerful for an old saw but it doesn't pull like that one.


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## ncpete (Feb 4, 2017)

there's a few listed as runners on FleaBay. temptation runs strong.


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## svk (Feb 4, 2017)

ncpete said:


> there's a few listed as runners on FleaBay. temptation runs strong.


I have two parts saws that could be combined to make one runner with parts to spare.....


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## ncpete (Feb 4, 2017)

svk said:


> I have two parts saws that could be combined to make one runner with parts to spare.....


Not in market yet - just sorely tempted.


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## rwoods (Feb 4, 2017)

I believe RandyMac once posted that his brother (RIP) knew how to make a 10-10 talk. Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 4, 2017)

svk said:


> How would you guys suggest cutting a tree like this to put it on the ground without surprises? I just want to fall it towards the lean. The cross hatched is the assumed depth of rot judging by the punky wood on the outside. It's about an 18" aspen.
> 
> View attachment 555847


The concern when you have a situation like that could be holding capability if it is also weight heavy to the left. If it was weight heavy to the right a bit when you have intact holding wood on the tension side. If its dominantly a front lean then. Not to much te be conconsidered
about. If it was weight heavy to the left I would put a very shallow open undercut then cut I steeper angle out of the stump.
(West coast Swanson) to ensure it frees of all holding wood early and the butt will slip to the ground before it's allowed to tip off into an unintended direction. You could still use it with a heavy front and side leaner with a back strap. Just don't leave too much holding wood.
Works really good for falling through tight canopies as the tree has an ability to roll. High cuts are even better because it can drop and roll at the same time.
It's a tecneque to have the butt hit before the top. Very important for a faller to us on a degree of an up hill fall. Which I stongly advise against up hill falling.

Speaking of high cut. Usuallry better wood can be found higher up.


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## 009L (Feb 4, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> The concern when you have a situation like that could be holding capability if it is also weight heavy to the left. If it was weight heavy to the right a bit when you have intact holding wood on the tension side. If its dominantly a front lean then. Not to much te be conconsidered
> about. If it was weight heavy to the left I would put a very shallow open undercut then cut I steeper angle out of the stump.
> (West coast Swanson) to ensure it frees of all holding wood early and the butt will slip to the ground before it's allowed to tip off into an unintended direction. You could still use it with a heavy front and side leaner with a back strap. Just don't leave too much holding wood.
> Works really good for falling through tight canopies as the tree has an ability to roll. High cuts are even better because it can drop and roll at the same time.
> ...



"West coast Swanson"

I don't suppose there's a website where one could see a lot of the different cut styles illustrated??? (WCS, Humbolt, etc.)

Pat


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 4, 2017)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/falling-pics-11-25-09.116358/page-565

Here is some west coast Swansons.
used for protecting the wood in down hill falls. Have some more pics and vid in 569 and up too


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## 009L (Feb 5, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/falling-pics-11-25-09.116358/page-565
> 
> Here is some west coast Swansons.
> used for protecting the wood in down hill falls. Have some more pics and vid in 569 and up too



Thanks WBF, 

For some reason I completely forgot about that thread. A shame really, so many awesome pictures! 

Pat


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## hseII (Feb 5, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> I dug this up from page 9 that I've been aware of. I also dug up Brian's triangle pic from page 4 yesterday.
> Some may call me a procrastinater and others a great planner of my work.
> I'm always planning for 'tomorrow'.
> 
> ...



Thank You.

We replaced 200' of fence yesterday, & while we were in that section, noticed many dead &/or hazard trees that had to go.

Trees falling on a fence & cattle getting out is bad business, especially because my grandparents are the only ones at home during the week. We all either work out of town, or are at work till dark during the week.






Stone dead & hard as a rock about 3" in. 

There was also a hickory tree inside the fence that had at least a 25 degree lean.

I wish I'd taken pics of that one, but boring the back cut was the only option.

My family has felled lots of trees, but they just did it, & never put the time in to learn the right way to do it.

They are all good in their own rights, but would have not taken the time to fell that tree the way I did, & I know there would have been problems.


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## JimMorrison (Feb 5, 2017)

009L said:


> "West coast Swanson"
> 
> I don't suppose there's a website where one could see a lot of the different cut styles illustrated??? (WCS, Humbolt, etc.)
> 
> Pat


If you google "Humboldt cut" or "unintentional Dutchman" one of the search results will be a U.S. Forestry site. This site has a lot of illustrations and info on felling techniques.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 5, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=d2TaSF30FMU
This is a a good one Pat. I see they have the modified Swanson in this too. (West coast Swanson).


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 5, 2017)

hseII said:


> Thank You.
> 
> We replaced 200' of fence yesterday, & while we were in that section, noticed many dead &/or hazard trees that had to go.
> 
> ...


Nice looking job on your felling cuts and best placement of tree.
What kinda tree is that in the upper left of your picture?


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## hseII (Feb 5, 2017)

Probably Red Oak, but I don't remember.


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## hseII (Feb 5, 2017)

Wait,

The one at 10:30, or the one @ 11:15?


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 5, 2017)

The big one with the sun on it.


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## rwoods (Feb 5, 2017)

White oak? Ron


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## hseII (Feb 5, 2017)

rwoods said:


> White oak? Ron



This.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 5, 2017)

hseII said:


> Wait,
> 
> The one at 10:30, or the one @ 11:15?


 John learnt to tell time only with the evolution of digital timepieces in 1972.


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 5, 2017)

hseII said:


> This.


Savanah Oak?


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## rwoods (Feb 5, 2017)

http://www.wood-database.com/white-oak/

Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 5, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=d2TaSF30FMU


This appears to be a Work safe bc (WCB vidio) BC Forest Saftey Council (BCFSC) Who have constructed the BC Fallers training standards for Work Safe BC, do endorse the falling cuts BUT go on to say

"It may have been modified for filming and may not be consistent with BC fallers training practices."

WTF!!!! Next time someone from Work Safe BC or a saftey advisor from BCFSC or prehaps my Certified Faller Supervisor comes to audit & evaluate my work to uphold the Councils standards on behalf of Work Safe BC.....

I think it's going to go someting like this:

Question: "what's happening here?
Answer : "I was overcoming a falling difficulty"....
Officer: "and would you mind explaining what looks to be about a 6 tree push just over here"?
Me: "I was also overcoming a falling difficulty with an uprooted tree in the mix".

Officer: "Ok now I am starting to see a trend here.
It looks like you have a ten tree push down on this end. Would you mind attempting to explain this one"?

Me"Sure I would love to.

I was just doing some filming for the Internet ".

Officer: So you are saying it was a modified tecneque"

Me: "that's what I'm saying,
modified for filming and may not be consistent with BC fallers training standards practices."

Officer. " With some of this work displayed here, I could have suspended your practice and sent you for remedial training or recertification but I asked you and you were able to give more than ecxeptable responses here today to justify your actions. We'll let you carry on".

Me: "I thank you! OH thank you sir...I am forever indebted".

The end.
Yeah right! Hypocrits.



I found 15 inconsistencies in that film without trying very hard.

I mean you would think they could find fallers that could do it by the book FOR THE PUPPOSESE OF FILMING TO MEET BC FALLERS TRAINING PRACTICE STANDARDS ??? NO? YEAH? maybe I am wrong here?

If they tried then prehaps it went something like this......

"BCFSC Director":
Work safe BC/ BC Fallers saftey practice vidio; TAKE scene #147....

Ok CUT! CUT! *Throws stick at Faller*,
Faller Tom: "What did you do that for? You said 'CUT" !
Director: CUT! CUT the scene Tom! For crying out loud Tom! I don't know how it became we ever gave you a Falling ticket?
You are supose to know this stuff Tom"!
Tom: "Well you got a Falling ticket? how did you get yours"?
Director:
"Can you just do it right Tom? Please..for me.. so we can all go home? Doesn't look like we have a lot of trees left either.

The end.

( one could only wonder eh?)
Or maybe Clint Eastwood was the director. "Cut! Cut" ..Eastwood: "Why was he out of focus? ...if he wasn't out of focus then we don't stop the take. I think I just made my self clear on that.... Now if you'd do the right thing like I know you are going to and just apologize to my mule and we can all carry on....lol

How many fun fact discrepancies can
y'all see in the vid that you know or may believe to not be a BC Fallers safe practice?
Obviously I have a significant advantage on reconizing them .because a Certified Faller should know his own book on what's expected of him


Some of the 15 differences I spotted are kind of the same but different in their own right. Some were done properly at different times through the undercut vid. What you saw is more accurate as to what you would see on the hill.


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## VW Splitter (Feb 5, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Which I stongly advise against up hill falling.




Why do you advise against up hill falling?


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## Tenderfoot (Feb 5, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Why do you advise against up hill falling?


Trees tend to slide down after they hit the ground. The logger tends to get splattered when they have a tree hit them, even if it is already on the ground.


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## VW Splitter (Feb 5, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> Trees tend to slide down after they hit the ground. The logger tends to get splattered when they have a tree hit them, even if it is already on the ground.


Cool. That's good to know. Will be doing some up hill falling Saturday. Power lines on the downhill side. I plan on putting a rope in it, making my cuts, then being well out of the way when the tree is pulled over.


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## Tenderfoot (Feb 5, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Cool. That's good to know. Will be doing some up hill falling Saturday. Power lines on the downhill side. I plan on putting a rope in it, making my cuts, then being well out of the way when the tree is pulled over.


Make a bigger and smoother escape route then normal. Saw isn't worth your life, so drop it if you need to move fast. They normally do not go far downhill, but when they do, its a train wreck. Never buck from the down hill side and work downwards from the crown when you buck. Be wary of pivot points too, you can have a log swing around on you and crush your legs.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 5, 2017)

VW Splitter said:


> Why do you advise against up hill falling?


Its a really dangerous thing to do. By the book we are allowed to fall 15° above side hill, (up the hill). The west coast is a little different as the slopes can change and you can be falling multi faces so we have this thing called "overcoming a falling difficulty"
The bigger the wood or snags, the steeper the ground, the rockier the ground the more snags above, the less experience the faller....the move dangerous it is.
It starts dangerous and gets worse.

You are working from the low side right?
That's like me saying go stand on the low side everytime you fall a tree. I would advise to not do that obviously.
Now the top is closer to the ground and will reach it faster in this situation due to the slope. The danger of that is it can often create a whipping motion from the top bending and springing giving it a downward travel when mixed with gravity.
That's when special cuts are in order. I like to use "west coast Swanson" because I can make the Humboldt less open like 30° instead of 40/45° to speed up the process of droping the butt before the top. Then cut my ramp to complete my undercut. When you cut the ramp, you change where the cut closes and takes away that sudden impact which I believe stalls the butt and speeds up the top soon after. Another approach on more juvenile trees that have holding power to the stump. maybe an open face of a "Johnny HMT".
The added risk that I deal with is distubance above, dislodging rocks. (Slides) and unstable trees/snags.
We never fall a tree on a tree laying up the hill for that reason. We don't worry about bucking 'would be saw log' if saftey is in question. Unfortunately I've known safe fallers that were lost bucking blowdown up and down a hill "in the name of saftey"


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## 009L (Feb 7, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=d2TaSF30FMU
> This is a a good one Pat. I see they have the modified Swanson in this too. (West coast Swanson).



Perfect, exactly what I was looking for! It's not just about knowing the different styles, but when too use them. Subscribed, with much more to learn.

Thanks Jamie,

Pat


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## 009L (Feb 7, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> This appears to be a Work safe bc (WCB vidio) BC Forest Saftey Council (BCFSC) Who have constructed the BC Fallers training standards for Work Safe BC, do endorse the falling cuts BUT go on to say
> 
> "It may have been modified for filming and may not be consistent with BC fallers training practices."
> 
> ...



I was laughing pretty hard reading through this! I'm guessing you're up to your ass in snow and a few adult beverages along? Lol! When you're done making trees throw themselves to the ground at the mear sounds of your boots, you should start writing for a living. This isn't the first time I've had this thought btw.

Pat


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## svk (Feb 7, 2017)

svk said:


> How would you guys suggest cutting a tree like this to put it on the ground without surprises? I just want to fall it towards the lean. The cross hatched is the assumed depth of rot judging by the punky wood on the outside. It's about an 18" aspen.
> 
> View attachment 555847


Going to drop this tree this weekend (see attachment in quote). Should I do a traditional back cut or bore and trigger?

II just got a cell phone tripod so I can video it. I'll try out my 70CC Mac and you all can make fun of my accent. Maybe call me "Buckin Stevie Vee" LOL.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 7, 2017)

svk said:


> Going to drop this tree this weekend (see attachment in quote). Should I do a traditional back cut or bore and trigger?
> 
> II just got a cell phone tripod so I can video it. I'll try out my 70CC Mac and you all can make fun of my accent. Maybe call me "Buckin Stevie Vee" LOL.


lol

.Lord 'tunder' 'n' Jesus 'by' ! Iys Hates funny accents 'by'. You's gots to be's thicks me's sons? Me's I gone and gives me's opinions once I dids, geez lord 'by' (boy )me sons.

]https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=1TfDEUsdUV0


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 8, 2017)

svk said:


> Going to drop this tree this weekend (see attachment in quote). Should I do a traditional back cut or bore and trigger?
> 
> II just got a cell phone tripod so I can video it. I'll try out my 70CC Mac and you all can make fun of my accent. Maybe call me "Buckin Stevie Vee" LOL.


I wouldn't attempt it, as it will chair for sure and the arial branches are sure to pound you into the topsoil. Lol.
No biggy, that rot is just wood you don't have to cut. The strongest wood is always close to the rot and so is the best figured grain.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 8, 2017)

Aurora Boriallis ^^ nice **** I mean pics.


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## square1 (Feb 8, 2017)

svk said:


> Going to drop this tree this weekend (see attachment in quote). Should I do a traditional back cut or bore and trigger?
> 
> II just got a cell phone tripod so I can video it. I'll try out my 70CC Mac and you all can make fun of my accent. Maybe call me "Buckin Stevie Vee" LOL.


If you are dropping it with the lean, I'd be inclined to bore & trigger it. I'd tend to leave the hinge and the holding strap slightly on the thick side to keep it from compressing and would sever the strap a few inches below the back cut (with the longest bar I had).

I'm warming up the popcorn popper to watch the video!


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## bitzer (Feb 8, 2017)

Svk- face the tree as usual and then full throttle traditional back cut but only on the side that had good wood left. Don't bore it. Good way to get pinched.

As far as up hilling trees, block face with a good snipe will keep it on the stump as long as possible and snipe will keep it up the hill for a second. You really need to anticipate what's up the hill and what might make the tree come back down. No convential face here unless you need to save the wood but that's for the pros. Humboldts and and snipes at the very least and a little step up in the back cut. I've had trees come 30 feet past the stump and that's big topped hardwood on what pnw guys would consider flat ground.


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## svk (Feb 21, 2017)

Here's a couple trees I'll be dropping later this week. Black cherry and American Elm. Both of them are partially uprooted and pose a threat to camp equipment that will be moved before I start cutting. 




In my previous experience, Elm is so tough that it won't chair and cherry usually breaks at the hinge before it will chair. Anyone else have a different experience with these species?


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## bitzer (Feb 21, 2017)

Elm will split but won't chair. I'm always amazed at how strong it is. Cherry will chair, similar to ash. With them leaning like that I would buck them off like you would on the ground. Buck the entire far half off first, then under buck the near side bottom quarter, then finish the near side top quarter. Remember where the compression and tension wood is and how you need to get rid of what first. If they are hung up in anything the tension will change some. It always helps to buck that far side off first because you can get a better read of where the tree is going to go. If it's under side tension it could spring away from you or towards you. You need to read what the kerf is doing.


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## rwoods (Feb 21, 2017)

svk, of the 5 leaners in your photo there appears to be at least 4 species, correct? Regardless of species, I try to anticipate a chair on any leaner. Below is one of the "good" cherry I get to cut. No barber chair - probably due to the rotten core. A good core, at least in oak, would have been almost a guaranteed chair without some precautions. Ron


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## svk (Feb 21, 2017)

Ron-just the cherry and the Elm pose any problems. The one on the top is a short snag and the little one in the background is staying for now. 

There are two aspen out of the view that are coming down too but I'm going to put the face at an angle so they will somewhat tip sideways and away from the park equipment.


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## Erik B (Feb 22, 2017)

svk said:


> Ron-just the cherry and the Elm pose any problems. The one on the top is a short snag and the little one in the background is staying for now.
> 
> There are two aspen out of the view that are coming down too but I'm going to put the face at an angle so they will somewhat tip sideways and away from the park equipment.


@svk Where is the camp you are working at?


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## svk (Feb 22, 2017)

Erik B said:


> @svk Where is the camp you are working at?


Wynantskill, NY.


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## Erik B (Feb 22, 2017)

svk said:


> Wynantskill, NY.


@svk You are a bit far from home. It looks to be beautiful country there.


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## svk (Feb 22, 2017)

Erik B said:


> @svk You are a bit far from home. It looks to be beautiful country there.


This place was home for a couple of years a few years back.

Upstate NY and all of New England is beautuful.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 23, 2017)

rwoods said:


> svk, of the 5 leaners in your photo there appears to be at least 4 species, correct? Regardless of species, I try to anticipate a chair on any leaner. Below is one of the "good" cherry I get to cut. No barber chair - probably due to the rotten core. A good core, at least in oak, would have been almost a guaranteed chair without some precautions. Ron
> 
> View attachment 559755
> 
> ...


OK, I gotta ask - in all seriousness when they lean like that who cares if they chair or split? It's almost on the ground, there isn't any doubt about where it's going to go, and if it splits it isn't going to fall on you. Seems to me that 6" poison ivy vine is more of a concern, and I barely get it!


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## svk (Feb 23, 2017)

It's not a huge concern. Putting these here more for discussion.


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## rwoods (Feb 23, 2017)

Chris-PA said:


> OK, I gotta ask - in all seriousness when they lean like that who cares if they chair or split? It's almost on the ground, there isn't any doubt about where it's going to go, and if it splits it isn't going to fall on you. Seems to me that 6" poison ivy vine is more of a concern, and I barely get it!



Not a logger so my concern with chairing is strictly safety. My post was just to illustrate to my concerned friend that you can cut severely leaning cherry without chairing - was too far in the post when I noticed my selected illustration showed a hollow cherry.

When you know someone who spent most of their adult life in a nursing home due to a chair, you go out of your way to learn - even if the tree is practically on the ground - unlikely such a tree will hit you but possible to slap you with your saw.

Ron


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## svk (Feb 25, 2017)

Dropped 9 leaners yesterday without a hitch. (Photos in the cutting/splitting for a Children's camp). 

The American Elm was incredible. The tree slowly sat down as I cut and had to nearly cut the hinge off to get it all the way on the ground. Those fibers just would not separate.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 25, 2017)

rwoods said:


> Not a logger so my concern with chairing is strictly safety. My post was just to illustrate to my concerned friend that you can cut severely leaning cherry without chairing - was too far in the post when I noticed my selected illustration showed a hollow cherry.
> 
> When you know someone who spent most of their adult life in a nursing home due to a chair, you go out of your way to learn - even if the tree is practically on the ground - unlikely such a tree will hit you but possible to slap you with your saw.
> 
> Ron


I wasn't trying to be flippant, and I know any tree cutting situation can be dangerous - there are large forces in play and things moving that weigh much more than us. When something is over that far and splits, getting the saw caught or flung is one of the things I'm concerned about.


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## rwoods (Feb 25, 2017)

Nothing personal: Since there are likely many who read these threads without participating, I hesitate to post too much about what I do for fear I might get someone hurt. So when I do I try to point out risks even though the thread participants are likely better cutters than me. 

To that unseen audience I will say that "so what" trees/situations make good practice for when the ante is greater. Remembering of course as implied above ever tree/situation must be evaluated as there is some risk in all.

Ron


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## procarbine2k1 (Feb 26, 2017)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 551314
> Here's a classic example of a dutchmen, not mine. It was a 30" spruce. Spruce is one of the most forgiving species when it comes to chairing.



I cut a grade walnut for a guy a couple years ago, and before we got back in there (a tree he worked out a deal with, with landowner), there was an ash (prob 36" dbh) laying on the ground that someone had just cut. The whole back half of the tree had started to separate from the front. I looked at the stump, sure enough... Just like you see here. The dude probably never knew how close he was to getting pounded into the ground like a bug.


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## cantoo (Mar 1, 2017)

Nothing to it.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Nothing to it.


 And the azzhole of the year goes to....

I just can't give that one a like.

What's the story with that vid OP?
Other than its Canadian.
Just youtube 'local' idiot?


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## cantoo (Mar 3, 2017)

Westboast, no idea on the video. Likely been shared 1000's of times. A buddy sent it to me, just some guys who want to die young I guess. I doubt they are Canadian.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2017)

Lol...they are from the Maritimes for sure ..NO? Who else would do that BS..lol

I haven't listened to it with out any background noise but I'd say I hear a New Brunswick accent or PEI?


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## svk (Mar 3, 2017)

Did you guys see the one on the FB "Chainsaws" page where the guy goes to cut down that big tree and it starts to uproot and tip over when he walks up to it and you see him hop off the rootball?


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Westboast, I doubt they are Canadian.



Maybe Dainish... trans Atlantic
Seems a little more North Americanized
"Kick 'em in the nuts' it seems a lot of non English speaking Europe take on a lot of Brits expressions like the Netherlands.
No expert though.


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2017)

svk said:


> Did you guys see the one on the FB "Chainsaws" page where the guy goes to cut down that big tree and it starts to uproot and tip over when he walks up to it and you see him hop off the rootball?


 No I haven't.
BC style ...Fort st John British Columbia.
The Native boys having a bit of fun.
I never heard about this one but it was on the evening news tonight. A $4,600 fine for stressing out the wildlife.
Funny they can shoot them anytime they want.
I think I know the moose rider?
I know everyone up that way

"Moose Rider" vidio

https://www.google.ca/search?q=moos...droid-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


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## Westboastfaller (Mar 3, 2017)

Think of the days of gone,
My travels spent in Fort ST John

movements of a rabbit,
That creature of habit
The good ol' days in fort St John,
tongue of an elk, _
a warm beavers pelt, _
Oh where have the good days gone

Her tìts hung loose
like the balls of a moose

That's my Lil' gal from Fort ST John

~WBF


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 8, 2017)

Is spring gonna get here soon? 42 below last night. 37 below tonight
Good thing I got some wood for a change.


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## woodfarmer (Nov 26, 2017)

square1 said:


> I'll be chaining my first tree ever in the next day or two. Not becases it's a leaner, even though it is, but because it's already split nearly in half and that split is working against the direction it needs to go (about 90 degrees from the lean).
> 
> Here's a heavy leaning dead ash dropped a couple years ago using the plunge & bore method
> 
> ...


So you bored in and cut from the hinge out toward the outside of the tree.


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## VW Splitter (Nov 26, 2017)

Yes, that is correct. Cut a small notch first, bore in and get your hinge correct, then cut from the hinge out toward the back stopping a couple of inches shy of all the way. What is left is the trigger. Cut that last little bit, the trigger, from the outside in and be ready to move when you cut it.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 27, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> I used to use just a log chain but that can't get tight, still stops a chair from proceding though. Then I went to the tie-down straps - one broke. Now it is logchain and chain binder.
> 
> Plunge cutting does work but I still chain them. Currently working a grove where every tree has a very wicked lean.



Same here, went through the same experiences. With the chain and chain binder I can get them TIGHT! 

I had to cut the middle stem growing out of a crotch by holding the saw above my head. I knew it would chair and that I would be safe (due to the right hand stem). Still scared me when it did chair. I had no way of getting up there to chain it.


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