# Trees die "from the top down"?



## Plasmech (Jan 26, 2009)

Someone told me today that trees die from the top down. Is this true? If so I guess the obvious worry is that if you have to take one down in blocks, going too high in the tree is extremely dangerous? Thanks for any help here guys.


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## Burvol (Jan 26, 2009)

They can die from all over...Conifers anyway. 

Root rot, a rot that starts in the root structure and goes into the stump and up the tree. Not the tree you want to find out about when your starting a dutchman 

Top rot can start when the top of a tree is sheared or broken off, weather in bird holes, bugs, ect. 

Pocket rot usually starts around snowbreak and/or a big spike knot, also known as a Coon D i c k by old timers. This rot never goes up,always down. 

Not sure exactly what it is properly called, but the bud worm lays it's eggs and the new larve eat the fresh growth emerging on Fir. 

Mistltoe is a disease that causes the bows of trees to get a real sick look and they grow in clusters at times trying to fight off the disease, essentially producing more growth to combat the dying. I'm not sure how mistltoe is started or what it is....SLOWP!!!! Chime in :hmm3grin2orange:


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## wilbilt (Jan 26, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Mistltoe is a disease that causes the bows of trees to get a real sick look and they grow in clusters at times trying to fight off the disease, essentially producing more growth to combat the dying. I'm not sure how mistltoe is started or what it is....SLOWP!!!! Chime in :hmm3grin2orange:



I have two "starts" of mistletoe in an 18-20 year old Poplar. The stuff is actually a parasite and is growing right out of the affected branches. The branches have turned the same color as the Mistletoe in the vicinity of the growth. I have never seen it much here in 20+ years, but within the last 2 years, it appears to have infected a large number of trees locally.

This tree appears to be a goner. I'm planning to burn the damn stuff in the hottest fire I can kindle.


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## Plasmech (Jan 26, 2009)

And all this time I thought mistletoe was good, seriously!

Did you guys know that it's a common practice for people to "harvest" mistletoe with a .22 rifle? Have to be a pretty steady hand to do that!


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## tree md (Jan 26, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> And all this time I thought mistletoe was good, seriously!
> 
> Did you guys know that it's a common practice for people to "harvest" mistletoe with a .22 rifle? Have to be a pretty steady hand to do that!



We used to shoot it out of trees with a shotgun while squirrel hunting when I was a kid. We would go house to house and sell it at Christmas time.


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## Plasmech (Jan 26, 2009)

So the stuff is like a fungus? It can kill the tree? Wow.


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## (WLL) (Jan 26, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Someone told me today that trees die from the top down. Is this true? If so I guess the obvious worry is that if you have to take one down in blocks, going too high in the tree is extremely dangerous? Thanks for any help here guys.


WOW, great question Plasmech!in order for me to explain the answer of your question i think its best for you too first understand the biology of the tree or it will make little or no sense at all. it is easy to spot dead and dying limbs and make one think that the tree is dieing from the top down, that may be the case but you need to look at the bigger picture and determine what is causing the tree to die. trees can die from the top down or from bottom up. from a climbers point of view i will say that dead trees take more skill and knowledge to bring them down safe.i have subscribed too this thread and i will be watching to see what others have to say and add use extreme caution or avoid climbing the dead trees until you got some more time under the belt


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## smokechase II (Jan 26, 2009)

*I'm not slowp but*

*"Mistletoe is a disease that causes the bows of trees to get a real sick look and they grow in clusters at times trying to fight off the disease, essentially producing more growth to combat the dying. I'm not sure how mistletoe is started or what it is....SLOWP!!!! Chime in"*

There are two types of mistletoe.
Leafy - like you see in Oak trees and in doorways at Christmas - it just robs the tree of moisture.
Dwarf - like you see in Pine trees - it takes both moisture and nutrients and is much more likely to kill the host.

Think of mistletoe like tobacco. It kills in slow motion.

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Trivia for this thread.

You'll often see a limb area with advanced mistletoe, (these are called witches brooms for their appearance), that has died even though the top of the tree is still alive.

*So this would be one instance where the tree doesn't die from the top down.*

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These witches’ brooms can be very heavy and do represent a hazard to anyone below as they age or are being dealt with.


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## smokechase II (Jan 26, 2009)

*The Pine Beetle*

I often see Pine trees, particularly Lodgepole, that have numerous hits from the MTB (mountain pine beetle) where the needles are turning red closer to the ground while the tree up high is still green.

I can't say the tree is dying from the ground up, but at least I think I can say it isn't dying from the top down. (It may be even top to bottom with regard to death - but just showing it below).

The method where the MPB kills is by girdling the tree and possibly carrying spores of different rot/fungus contributing also.

It can take from 3 - 6 (summer) months for a Lodgepoles needles to all turn red.


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## smokechase II (Jan 26, 2009)

*Concerns about working in dead trees*

Two to discuss just now:

1) The tree just dead or dying and drying out. The wood will behave more brittle when dryer. A hinge will not hold as well for instance. Trees do generally dry out from the top down!

2) Rot. It generally takes awhile for rot to spread. 
However, if a tree has just died, that doesn't mean that the rot inside it hasn't been there for awhile.

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The tricky reason for this post was to point out that there is the possibility of a recently dead tree being safer than working in a live tree. The live tree could have advanced rot and be more dangerous.

Since many rots are 'root rots' one could view their method of death as from the ground up ???

All the Best


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## Burvol (Jan 26, 2009)

You know trees are like people, all the same...but all a little different.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 26, 2009)

Trees can die from the top down or the bottom up or from the middle either way, depends on the causal agent.

Dwarf mistletoe, which tends to affect conifers, and is species specific. That is, the species of dwarf mistletoe that affects Western hemlock is different than the species of dwarf mistletoe that affects Lodgepole pine etc.

It is a parasitic plant, that grows into the branches or stem of its host. It will cause swelling of the host part and will affect wood quality. In conifers, witches brooms are a common sign. These growths need to be considered when doing a tree assessment, as they tend to be significantly heavier and the branch wood is much more brittle.

Dwarf mistletoes spread their seed by building up water pressure within the seed 'pod' and when it reaches a certain point "spitting" the seed out. A good analogy would be spitting a watermelon seed. The seed is covered in a sticky coating and as it shoots out, it will stick to any foliage it lands on. If it lands on a proper host species, then the new plant will begin to grow. Seed movement can also occur by animals such as birds. Infection rates within a stand tend to move slowly as the seeds only travel about 50'.


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## smokechase II (Jan 26, 2009)

*I can't speak to the poplar ecosystem but*

*"I have two "starts" of mistletoe in an 18-20 year old Poplar. The stuff is actually a parasite and is growing right out of the affected branches. The branches have turned the same color as the Mistletoe in the vicinity of the growth. I have never seen it much here in 20+ years, but within the last 2 years, it appears to have infected a large number of trees locally.

This tree appears to be a goner. I'm planning to burn the damn stuff in the hottest fire I can kindle."*

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Wildfire was the primary controller of mistletoe in the forests of Eastern Oregon etc. The witches brooms would burn much more readily, (even when green), than other branches.

Mistletoe generally spreads down in an inverted cone shape, by the wind and birds too.

Any other trees you may be able to save by getting rid of infected limbs promptly.

I hate the stuff.


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## Ed Roland (Jan 27, 2009)

Mistletoe: the state flower of Oklahoma. 

Perhaps in winter when the host tree is leafless and the mistletoe can receive sunlight, some of a mistletoe's food production might be transferred back to the host tree. Because American Mistletoe can photosynthesize and is not entirely dependent on its host for food, some authorities call it "semiparasitic," but if it actually provides a modicum of food back to the host, then perhaps the relationship is really one of mutual cooperation. Will it kill the tree? heavy infestations overtime may win the battle. What can you really do? It will grow back.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 27, 2009)

We have pine borers hitting a lot of bull/jack pine here in Va, WV, W. Md...anything like that in the PNW?


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## Thillmaine (Jan 27, 2009)

Trees dies from natural selection. Top down dieback is typical in a residential setting where construction and compaction are issues. Otherwise some branches die becuase lack of light, other from injury, and others from alleopathy, nutrient unavailability, etc etc...(essentially natural selection)
The ones I kill usually are from about from about 3 feet off the ground, depending on if I need a low cut for the stumper.   :greenchainsaw:


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## smokechase II (Jan 28, 2009)

*"We have pine borers hitting a lot of bull/jack pine here in Va, WV, W. Md...anything like that in the PNW?"*

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I can't say this for sure but from what I know the western pine beetles and eastern pine borers are pretty similar in their final product.

They get under the bark and eat cambium and usually kill host trees.

The Mountain Pine Beetle in the West has been doing a number on us for decades. Currently the So Cal, British Columbia, and Colorado areas are getting the most press. Be aware that it is an ongoing part of nature and has been active throughout the west on somewhat predictable cycles since before Hector was a pup.

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Why I think the Eastern US overall gets less in the way of beetle kills is the amount of hardwoods inter mixed.
Diverse stands make for insect and disease resistance.

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Pine Borers are more of a problem in the Southern Forests as the forests are typically more uniform and therefore subject to greater impact.


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## smokechase II (Jan 28, 2009)

*Can anyone bring me up to speed?*

Is the term borer just an area label for the types of beetles that chew on cambium?

6 of one, half a dozen of the other?


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## pdqdl (Jan 28, 2009)

"borer" refers to any type of beetle that chews holes into the tree and tunnels about under the bark. I may be mistaken, but I don't think the term is restricted to any phylogenetic group of beetles, nor to what part of the tree is consumed after it bores a hole.

The term mostly is applied to bugs that make visible holes in trees, as though "bored" by a drill.

For example, cicadas lay their eggs on tree branches, which subsequently die and fall to the ground. They also poke holes in trees and suck out juices. But they are not called "borers", because the damage is not identified the same way.


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