# Underbidding: This is getting to be complete nonsense!



## Sunrise Guy (Apr 24, 2006)

OK, I know our business is getting glutted these days with more and more tree guys and gals. I also know that illegals are willing to work for very little pay. With that in mind, I have been bidding very low (as I see it) on work in my area, but still getting underbid. I'm honestly wondering if I'm going to keep trying to make my living doing this thing that I love. 

I went out on a bid today that was not too much work, but no walk in the park, either. Visualize a big hackberry about fifty feet tall. At about thirty feet or so, a codominant leader with a great deal of brushy growth on it, all very healthy, had split and fallen to the left of the tree as you face it. I believe it was a victim of some bad storms we've had lately. The branch was still attached at the crotch and would take more than a little T330 to cut it free. Some of it was resting on the ground, but a good part would need to be rigged down as a fence is directly under it. Half of the branch was in the neighbor's yard, the part not touching the ground was resting on the roof of a storage shed with a corrugated roof on it. From the split we're talking about wood starting at about 16" and then tapering off toward the tip.

I figured that I'd work the job alone and maybe need to make two trips to the dump at $20/load. I quoted the guy $200 and figured I was grossly underbidding, but I wanted to do the job by myself and felt that I'd at least make a few bucks. WRONG! The guy just e-mailed me to let me know that a "crew of guys" can do the job for less and get it done Tuesday. I had told the guy that I would need to do it Wednesday.

What is going on here? Am I the only one experiencing this crap? If I can believe that the guy got a crew who would do it for less, I see three illegals with chainsaws motoring down the branch and then dumping the wood in the park somewhere in the middle of the night for free. They'll probably make $50 each. 

So, what is the solution? I left one professional field because everyone and his uncle was getting into it and working for peanuts. I like the nicer things in life and won't be a whore, but I'm starting to wonder if I can still make a living in the trees.

Are you guys finding that you are having to go lower and lower on your bids these days in order to get work? Is your area experiencing more and more illegals invading it? I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks, in advance.


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## woodchux (Apr 24, 2006)

$200 sounds too cheap


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## clearance (Apr 24, 2006)

I have wondered why your president has nuked your constitutional rights in the name of safety and security, but anyone can just walk across the borders from either Canada or Mexico. From what I understand the proliferation of illegal (cheap because it is illegal) labor is what people with say want, how could it be any other way? Servants, maids, gardeners in California who are illegal have been around for many years, is it any real suprise it has finally moved to treework?


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## TreeChopper1 (Apr 24, 2006)

It's not really illegals here in Iowa but jobs are getting scarce and the population in general is hurting for the cash. It is hard to get jobs just for the simple fact people are tight with the money due to low amount of jobs. Everybody and their dog does landscaping/treework here just to make a fewe bucks to get by. People here don't care about ins. work. comp. , etc. We have guys using ladders and a n old homey pulling crap with their trucks. I mean no experience whatsoever.It's getting nuts.:monkey:


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## treeseer (Apr 24, 2006)

If you can't beat em on price, jump over em in quality. 

Lots of demand for affordable yet professional tree care, not just cutting. What were you going to do for the rest of the hackberry, after the busted piece got gone? The rest of the crown would need restoration pruning to make a new, stable form. There are pests to check and roots to manage for the tree to recover from the trauma. If the whole tree is not cared for, future breakage is far more likely. If the owner can't see that, either they're blind or dumb or you've failed to educate them. Or all three I guess.

True story: I did an appraisal on a tree hit by a car. On the property I noticed a leaning red oak, 26" dbh. Owner told me it'd been leaning since 1996 hurricane. I saw it leaning on 2 limbs of a nearby white oak. I left him with a $600 bid to reshape the whole crown to lessen the lean, taking off 20% top to bottom to lessen the lean. it was in line to cream his garage and a big magnolia and the high wires if it failed.

Even tho this guy cleaned up on the appraisal --$1900 in his pocket--he called the local utility climber to come do a buzz job. For $300 the hack spiked up the red oak, cut 3 branches, then spiked up the white oak and cut the lower limb that was rubbing the red oak. 2 days later we had a mild rainstorm. You'll never guess what happened...:jawdrop: 

Red oak failed, creaming garage and magnolia and wires. Underqualified, uninsured fools, and the worse fools that hire them. I got pics and will start a new thread tomorrow.


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## clearance (Apr 24, 2006)

Let me get this right, the utility guy did exactly what was asked of him, did he not? Nice slag on the guy, throwing in not just the "hack" but mentioning he was a utility guy as well, to make it sound worse. Kind of like the treehuggers saying "industrial logging" instead of just "logging". Shoulda just cut that damaged crap down, end of story, done, but thats not the way you and your ilk play, keep it alive so you can bill 'em, again and again. How can you say it would not have failed after you got $600 to fag around and saw off a few branches?


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## rebelman (Apr 24, 2006)

ANSI standard could level the field for competing bids. In writing. It should also prevent crap/hack work. I don't mind getting underbid if the work is standard. It rarely is.


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## kennertree (Apr 24, 2006)

clearance said:


> Let me get this right, the utility guy did exactly what was asked of him, did he not? Nice slag on the guy, throwing in not just the "hack" but mentioning he was a utility guy as well, to make it sound worse. Kind of like the treehuggers saying "industrial logging" instead of just "logging". Shoulda just cut that damaged crap down, end of story, done, but thats not the way you and your ilk play, keep it alive so you can bill 'em, again and again. How can you say it would not have failed after you got $600 to fag around and saw off a few branches?


Treeseer just told the truth. The guy is a hack by definition. Trees add value to property and work done on them by a proffesional is a good investment.


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## woodchux (Apr 24, 2006)

I must admit I've snickered a few times
Driving by tarped roofs, at locations 
which i had bid, but not gotten
because they were too cheap


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## DDM (Apr 24, 2006)

rebelman said:


> ANSI standard could level the field for competing bids. In writing. It should also prevent crap/hack work. I don't mind getting underbid if the work is standard. It rarely is.



I'd like to see that enforced.


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 24, 2006)

DDM said:


> I'd like to see that enforced.




Ya got that one right! There are ansis for hard hats and MANY guys dont wear them.


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## treeseer (Apr 25, 2006)

"the utility guy did exactly what was asked of him, did he not"

Yes that was the whole trouble. Owner is elderly and does not see or think well.
To just take orders without seeing what is needed is not professional, it is pandering. 

Weekender made a quick $300 by hacking and running, with no thought of what the whole tree's issues were. A competent utility man would have seen the risk and acted accordingly. I'm not slamming utility guys, but incompetents doing buzz work where arborists should be doing tree care costs us all.

The insurance company may see the fresh spike marks and fresh pruning wounds and investigate enough to go after the hack for causing the failure by cutting off the other tree's 6" branch that held up that red oak. That would be justice; why should we pay higher rates to pay for damage done by greedy idiots?


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 25, 2006)

a leaning tree with possible/probable root damage, stuck in another tree supported by a 6 inch branch, with a garage, magnolia and wires in the danger zone.
sounds to me like a high risk of failure and a high consequence of failure
better to remove the tree and replace with another.
maybe the insurance company would have found fault with leaving it.
no?


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## treeseer (Apr 25, 2006)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> maybe the insurance company would have found fault with leaving it.
> no?


Maybe they will, if they look hard enough to find out support was removed during pruning. Truth is, they do not look too closely at trees when they are standing.
An overall reduction of the sprawling side would have bought indefinite years, but if the client was not happy with the risk I would not have advocated against removal; too high a target rating.

aS it was, he was a pennypincher who got what he deserved for making Lincoln squeal so painfully.

No stem/root damage evident from the outside, but significant decay inside, likely from construction 18 yrs before.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 25, 2006)

I hear ya sunrise guy. Hang in there and try different approaches. Generate as many contacts as you can, get rolling anyway you can and while your rolling its easier to keep rolling. Something produced from large tree removals, trimms that people recognize and want to team up with you about.
Advertise anyway you can and stick to your ethical standard of spikeless trimming, it will come back to you, its the law first and formost from the trees themselves , they will continue to be forgiving to you if you stick to your guns and dont spike the trimms.


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## Sunrise Guy (Apr 25, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> I hear ya sunrise guy. Hang in there and try different approaches. Generate as many contacts as you can, get rolling anyway you can and while your rolling its easier to keep rolling. Something produced from large tree removals, trimms that people recognize and want to team up with you about.
> Advertise anyway you can and stick to your ethical standard of spikeless trimming, it will come back to you, its the law first and formost from the trees themselves , they will continue to be forgiving to you if you stick to your guns and dont spike the trimms.



Thanks for the encouragement, man. I have three bids to chase today. With gas getting higher and higher, I may start calling on prospects on a scooter! I wonder if that'll turn 'em off. Maybe they want to see the truck pull up, I don't know. I pulled up to this very weird guy's house in my gf's Firebird a couple of bids ago. He commented on the car. This guy didn't go with me and even told me he decided to go with another guy who bid the same as I. Makes you wonder. Oh well, I guess you can't get 'em all!


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## treeminator (Apr 25, 2006)

we have similar immigration problems in South Florida with the Haitian and latino immigrants working for low wages. last month i had 57 new accounts. this is wayyyyy more than the average tree company around here is getting these days. the hurricane clean up is all but done, the hack companis are struggling, and the chasers have left town. it's only the established and immigrant companies left to fight it out.

how do i counteract the immigrant's low prices? 

better salesmen with fair prices. i can't tell you how many times i've won bids simply based on my estimators being clean cut, preppy, english speaking, and treating the customers like gold with respect and sincerity. 

many customers have told me "we hired you for a little more money because we felt safer / more secure using you".

my profit margins aren't effected because my workers get paid $8/hr and the salesmen get $5 per home they sell.


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## Grace Tree (Apr 25, 2006)

treeminator said:


> my profit margins aren't effected because my workers get paid $8/hr and the salesmen get $5 per home they sell.



I'd like to move down there and come work for you. My McDonald's job is putting me in too high a tax bracket. 
Phil


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## treeminator (Apr 25, 2006)

Small Wood said:


> I'd like to move down there and come work for you. My McDonald's job is putting me in too high a tax bracket.
> Phil



i know you're joking, but ironically, that's where i recruit my workers from... fast food places and grocery stores. my best climber is an ex-Subway employee. my best log carrier used to be a stockboy a Publix.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 25, 2006)

treeseer, I'll assume there was no evident bulging of the root ball on the opposite side of the lean.

I believe that any time a tree leans significantly (what's significantly? maybe enough that you would think you would see evidence other than the lean) and there is no evidence of cracking/damage in the trunk, that the roots have been damaged. if the tree leans, the rootball must push/pull on the roots. I believe the roots cannot slide in their space due to the the push/pull force, so the only option is to break.
so anytime a tree leans without above ground structural damage, there is root damage.
am I correct in this thinking?


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 25, 2006)

well maybe if the ground is so saturated with water that it is essentially mud, than maybe the roots could slide in their space without damage


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## computeruser (Apr 25, 2006)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Are you guys finding that you are having to go lower and lower on your bids these days in order to get work? Is your area experiencing more and more illegals invading it? I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks, in advance.



I think my perspective might be a bit different from a lot of folks here, as I am only an occasional tree guy - one of those "evil" part-timers. The thing is that in the past two months I have had more people calling me up wanting tree services performed than I know what to do with and many that want things done that are way beyond my ability and my equipment. And it is all referrals - I do no advertising.

Maybe I am off-base here, but from what I've seen over the years I believe that what a lot of people are looking for is to be able to cultivate a relationship with the person they hire. Though this doesn't apply to all customers, I do think it applies to more than most folks realize. I have found this to be especially true with older folks, young first-time homeowners, and members of insular minority communities. Years ago, when I was part-timing during my undergraduate years, most of my treecare, fall cleanup, and snow clients were senior citizens. Word of a trustworthy, pleasant service provider travels fast in that group! More recently, I have received a lot of referral business within the gay/lesbian community. I was even joking the other day that I might have to go full-time, and call my business LGBTree.

Another point to consider: like it or not, many highly educated people are very uncomfortable with scruffy blue-collar folks. Many of these people will gladly pay a few dollars more to hire cleancut, english-speaking, non-smoking folks to perform work where these attributes make no real difference in the person's ability to actually perform the job. Though you may not be able to change this sort of prejudice, you can certainly try to capitalize on it. 

One last point: creative networking can make a world of difference. By way of example, my father is a realtor and he is always being asked for recommendations for home improvement and yard-related service providers, including arborists. You can also do valuable networking and get free advertising by providing a helping hand to non-profit groups - nature conservancies/nature preserves, private historic sites/cemeteries/parks, etc. Another idea that I think would be interesting would be interesting would be to provide tree care/trimming/heath/etc. presentations to local gardening groups. And one last idea that I've seen done before: see about donating tree-related books to the local library on the condition that your information is inscribed on the inside cover.

Your experiences may differ and some ideas might not work for your particular business, but it is food for thought, anyway.


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## treeseer (Apr 25, 2006)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> t
> so anytime a tree leans without above ground structural damage, there is root damage.
> am I correct in this thinking?


Yeah I agree, but the question is how much, and that's a guess.

DDm if you want standards enforced in Greenville, go to the city council and planning staff and tell em to get the standards written into the ordinance.

It's happening all over. Well, some places anyway.


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## beowulf343 (Apr 25, 2006)

I work for a small company. The owner has been in business 20 years and has four crews-2 bucket crews and 2 climbing crews(one trimming and one takedown.) I am foreman of the takedown crew and I have enough work for 50-60 hours a week year around. Alot of this work come from no other company wanting to do the really ugly jobs. Plus around here, everyone has a tree or two in their backyard, so on an average day, I usually have 3 or 4 homeowners stop by the jobsite and ask if a rep can stop by to give an estimate. But i think it helps that we are an established company with good equipment, professional employees, and a proven track record.

On another note, treeminator, how do you keep anybody by paying them only $8 an hour? Around here, even groundmen don't make that little.


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## treeminator (Apr 25, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> On another note, treeminator, how do you keep anybody by paying them only $8 an hour? Around here, even groundmen don't make that little.



it's no different than asking how fast food places keep their employees around for little pay (think of greasy fry cooks at $7/hour). the trick is you have to create a social atmosphere they like. you'd be surprised how much some people value hanging out at a job with firends. i often will hire one guy and then hire 1 or 2 of his friends. that way they work together and are happy. also, the people i tend to hire are NOT money motivated. when they sell, they get $5 per account. then they get to work on them to earn more. again, it's all about them hanging out with their buddies while making enough $$$ to pay the rent.


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## kennertree (Apr 25, 2006)

treeminator said:


> it's no different than asking how fast food places keep their employees around for little pay (think of greasy fry cooks at $7/hour). the trick is you have to create a social atmosphere they like. you'd be surprised how much some people value hanging out at a job with firends. i often will hire one guy and then hire 1 or 2 of his friends. that way they work together and are happy. also, the people i tend to hire are NOT money motivated. when they sell, they get $5 per account. then they get to work on them to earn more. again, it's all about them hanging out with their buddies while making enough $$$ to pay the rent.


How are they gonna pay the rent making $8 per hour?


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## clearance (Apr 25, 2006)

treeminator said:


> it's no different than asking how fast food places keep their employees around for little pay (think of greasy fry cooks at $7/hour). the trick is you have to create a social atmosphere they like. you'd be surprised how much some people value hanging out at a job with firends. i often will hire one guy and then hire 1 or 2 of his friends. that way they work together and are happy. also, the people i tend to hire are NOT money motivated. when they sell, they get $5 per account. then they get to work on them to earn more. again, it's all about them hanging out with their buddies while making enough $$$ to pay the rent.


The troll is back, he pays his guys $8hr and makes them pay thier own comp. gives em Craftsman chainsaws, used to give em electric chainsaws, gets climbing rope from Homo-depot, brainwashes his guys.... all according to him, alledgedly, all here on search. Stick around cull, you are amusing.


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## notahacker (Apr 25, 2006)

SunRise Guy:

The longer you are in business, the more clients you will make. Try to create "customers for life." According to my phone call list from 2005, 48% of my phone calls last year were from current customers or referrals. (Basically my business is being established). I have only been in business for myself for 3 years now. --My point is: time is on your side. Be patient.


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## Dadatwins (Apr 25, 2006)

treeminator said:


> it's no different than asking how fast food places keep their employees around for little pay (think of greasy fry cooks at $7/hour). the trick is you have to create a social atmosphere they like. you'd be surprised how much some people value hanging out at a job with firends. i often will hire one guy and then hire 1 or 2 of his friends. that way they work together and are happy. also, the people i tend to hire are NOT money motivated. when they sell, they get $5 per account. then they get to work on them to earn more. again, it's all about them hanging out with their buddies while making enough $$$ to pay the rent.



What :censored: planet is this business located on? Are the gas prices cheaper there?


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## treeminator (Apr 25, 2006)

Dadatwins said:


> What :censored: planet is this business located on? Are the gas prices cheaper there?



you're in central Virginia? i'd probably pay them 30% less then based on VA's standard of living compared to FL's.


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## clearance (Apr 25, 2006)

treeminator said:


> you're in central Virginia? i'd probably pay them 30% less then based on VA's standard of living compared to FL's.


That would be $5.60 an hour, hear that Dadatwins, you are paying way to much, if this cull really has a company, which I highly doubt, it would be cool if someone dropped a 300lb. block on him from about 80' up. "Hey boss, c'mere a second, a quarter dropped outta my jeans, its on the ground right there, under me"


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## doggonetrees (Apr 26, 2006)

I get a lot of my work from referrals after storm work and this helps because the truck is in the neighborhood. I put signs out in the yard that I am working in until completion of job. Got 4 removal jobs and 3 crown reduction jobs from doing charity work at a local church- adjusting tennis court lights and cutting out 5 widow maker limbs. Having the bucket with hydraulic drill attachment helps with the few cabling jobs I have had. And the tree replacement/ fertilization work that I get helps sustain our business. Granted, this is all on a part time basis due to being on active duty until next Jan. I work midnight shift at our gaurd base, which gives me time to bid / work jobs from 8am to 2pm. I haven't lost a bid due to being in a little car, as I show proof of ins., along with a picture album of previous jobs. I have one guy pick up my billets for me, his price is for the wood. My help ers are in landscaping business and they are happy with their pay, as the jobs we go on usually get them business as well.


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## rebelman (Apr 26, 2006)

computeruser is right, often clean cut is all that matters. I lose work all the time to outright hacks who've never done a job to standard in their lives, but they are cute and funny.


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## beowulf343 (Apr 26, 2006)

treeminator said:


> you'd be surprised how much some people value hanging out at a job with firends. i often will hire one guy and then hire 1 or 2 of his friends. that way they work together and are happy.
> 
> 
> > Huh! I usually go to the job to work. I hang out with friends when the work is done.


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## hache (Apr 28, 2006)

*get a grip*



treeseer said:


> If you can't beat em on price, jump over em in quality.
> 
> Lots of demand for affordable yet professional tree care, not just cutting. What were you going to do for the rest of the hackberry, after the busted piece got gone? The rest of the crown would need restoration pruning to make a new, stable form. There are pests to check and roots to manage for the tree to recover from the trauma. If the whole tree is not cared for, future breakage is far more likely. If the owner can't see that, either they're blind or dumb or you've failed to educate them. Or all three I guess.
> 
> ...




Hey mate, if he isnt gonna pay $200 to get his tree sorted by a professional then definitly isnt gonna pay for the rest of the stuff you said i.e. pests to check root damge, give the guy a break, failing to educate him, come on!!!!!!


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## treeseer (Apr 28, 2006)

"if he isnt gonna pay $200 to get his tree sorted by a professional then definitly isnt gonna pay for the rest of the stuff you said i.e. pests to check root damge,"

Many tree owners do not know about tree care. they value the cutting less and less, but that does not mean they can not learn about the value of tree care.

Many won't, I agree, but some will once they learn what it is and how it saves money and trees. Many still think an arborist removes fetuses.


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## M.D. Vaden (Apr 29, 2006)

The bright side is that not everybody wants a low price.

One thing I'm doing now, when I hand bids to people - in certain circumstances, I tell them that them that the bid is free to them for their use only - nobody else's. And, that if they show the bid to another tree company person or landscaper during the bid process, that they will be charged an $80 consulting fee because they are using the bid as a tool.

I also tend to migrate away from low bid customers. Keeping prices up, we weed them out.

Also, I'm trending toward water feature installations these days because the license in Oregon requires a test and it's much, much harder to become licensed as a landscaper; low bid or high bid mentality.

Landscape work tends to be in view for several days or a few weeks, so it's a very hard trade to work illegally in here. Most illegal landscapers get turned in in almost no time at all. Our tree work requires virtually no testing and almost anybody can get the construction contractors board license needed for that in a matter or days.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 29, 2006)

Sunrise Guy said:


> OK, I know our business is getting glutted these days with more and more tree guys and gals. I also know that illegals are willing to work for very little pay. With that in mind, I have been bidding very low (as I see it) on work in my area, but still getting underbid. I'm honestly wondering if I'm going to keep trying to make my living doing this thing that I love. .



No point ranting or expecting sympathy here bro ,most of the guys here are happy to see poor little Mexicans steal the food rite off your plate! most here are more liberal than liberal and lefter than left..


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 29, 2006)

clearance said:


> I have wondered why your president has nuked your constitutional rights in the name of safety and security, but anyone can just walk across the borders from either Canada or Mexico. From what I understand the proliferation of illegal (cheap because it is illegal) labor is what people with say want, how could it be any other way? Servants, maids, gardeners in California who are illegal have been around for many years, is it any real suprise it has finally moved to treework?




Here's a prime example..


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 29, 2006)

treeminator said:


> many customers have told me "we hired you for a little more money because we felt safer / more secure using you".




Your telling us your clients don't feel safe hiring Hatian's and Latino's..wow you better be carefull saying things like that around here...:greenchainsaw:


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## treeseer (Apr 29, 2006)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> Your telling us your clients don't feel safe hiring Hatian's and Latino's..wow you better be carefull saying things like that around here...:greenchainsaw:


Rolla that sounds like it may have been a little racist, but maybe it wasn't. If one of my clients said that, I would know they were talking about feeling safer with their trees in my hands than a less knowledgeable arborist.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 29, 2006)

So?
I've actually had cutomers ask if I had Mexicans working for me. They didn't want them at their house.
Their perogative.


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## treeseer (Apr 29, 2006)

I've had spics and darkies and kykes wand dagoes and micks work for me, but the one who ripped me off the worst was a cracker.

Mike I agree the client has a right to those preferences. God word  earlier on on-site recycling; if a log ain't worth timber or firewood then it is recycled on site. They work well for erosion control.


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 29, 2006)

a racist? I am not. I do not hold what God made against a person. I make my judgements on how a person acts and what they do. 
Got 10 tatooes and a bunch of facial piercings?
Commit a crime? 
Act like an idiot?
Have kids out of wedlock and abandon your responsibility?


I do believe that it is a greater good to let a person make their own decisions (there is some degree to that that we can argue) whether right or wrong than to have the government or do-good liberals forcing their view of political correctness on them.

If someone told me they weren't going to hire me cause I'm a dumb pollock, so be it. the next customer gets the excellent level of work I do. and I wont be running to the government crying about being discriminated against.
I guess I expect everyone to act in a mature manner.

BTW, I'd hire any race of person if they have honor, intregity and responsibility


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## Mike Barcaskey (Apr 29, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> My customers do not determine the race of my work crew. Sorry for you dude. You need a better class of client and a better outlook yourself.
> 
> Do they ask if you have women in your employ? Or who works at the factory that makes your equipment?
> 
> Do you share their ignorance?



Don't worry, I have a dim view of those folks who asked me that question. Probably would not invite them over for dinner.

I lost a job once because I have an NRA sticker on my truck.
So be it.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 29, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Rolla that sounds like it may have been a little racist, but maybe it wasn't. If one of my clients said that, I would know they were talking about feeling safer with their trees in my hands than a less knowledgeable arborist.




I think we all know just what they meant....


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## Ryan Gossen (May 3, 2006)

Sunrise Guy you have my sympathy, and my company, as we share the same area. Its true that the people underbidding us are very often here illegally, it only stands to reason that a man on a work trip from third world conditions is going to be hard to bid against. But if he has not been dissuaded by the INS, he surely wont be phased by ANZI. 

Everyone knows why this happens: people down there have it bad. Jobs left the US for Mexico and then left Mexico for China. International corporations have been able to shift their labor source to reduce costs because they can co-ordinate internationally. Labor interests (thats us) co-ordinate locally, and see what happens: one area is pitted against anther and the lowest common denominator wins. That means the lowest quality job for the lowest pay, and in a job like ours where safety is such an issue, it means our very lives are worth less.

People coming across that border is like fluid moving from high pressure to low pressure. There is allot of debate about stopping it without much consideration for why its happening. The American working man will understand what is happening to him/her only when they understand what is happening to workers globally.


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## DDM (Jun 3, 2006)

treeminator said:


> i know you're joking, but ironically, that's where i recruit my workers from... fast food places and grocery stores. my best climber is an ex-Subway employee. my best log carrier used to be a stockboy a Publix.



Okay? How can you take a guy out of publix or walmart wherever and send him out to do estimates? What? Does he just friggin guess what its going to take to get the job done?


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## treeminator (Jun 3, 2006)

DDM said:


> Okay? How can you take a guy out of publix or walmart wherever and send him out to do estimates? What? Does he just friggin guess what its going to take to get the job done?



i do the estimates. it would cause ALOT of problems if they knew how much money i was making vs. paying them.


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## DDM (Jun 3, 2006)

treeminator said:


> i do the estimates. it would cause ALOT of problems if they knew how much money i was making vs. paying them.


Hmmmmmmmm



treeminator said:


> my profit margins aren't effected because my workers get paid $8/hr and the salesmen get $5 per home they sell.



ummm am i missing something?


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## Freakingstang (Jun 3, 2006)

DDM said:


> Hmmmmmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ummm am i missing something?




He left out the part that he is a troll with alter ego's...Duh


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## DDM (Jun 3, 2006)

Freakingstang said:


> He left out the part that he is a troll with alter ego's...Duh



If he is he's REAL Good at it.


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## treeminator (Jun 3, 2006)

DDM said:


> Hmmmmmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ummm am i missing something?



here's how it works. they go out and "sell" to get $5 per home. to clarify...they get the lead all prepped and ready for me to close. they get all the info, talk to the customer, and basically do everything except price it out.


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## DDM (Jun 3, 2006)

treeminator said:


> here's how it works. they go out and "sell" to get $5 per home. to clarify...they get the lead all prepped and ready for me to close. they get all the info, talk to the customer, and basically do everything except price it out.



O Really? I'm sure they give only the best advice to the customer regarding there oak tree care or was it an orange tree?


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## treeminator (Jun 3, 2006)

DDM said:


> O Really? I'm sure they give only the best advice to the customer regarding there oak tree care or was it an orange tree?



i don't do tree treatment (health issues of a tree) or planting because i feel that might hurt my reputation as a good neighorhood tree company. i mainly do trimming, removals, and stump grinding. seems there's enough work in those 3 categories. especially palm tree trimming.


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## DDM (Jun 3, 2006)

treeminator said:


> i don't do tree treatment (health issues of a tree) or planting because i feel that might hurt my reputation as a good neighorhood tree company. i mainly do trimming, removals, and stump grinding. seems there's enough work in those 3 categories. especially palm tree trimming.



You dont have a brother named SpikedSupra do you?


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## Freakingstang (Jun 3, 2006)

This is a nicely trimmed tree, huh. I think treescalper did this one


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## Freakingstang (Jun 3, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> That might be a removal......they are just waiting to drop the log until the right trucks are there. Hopefully. Anyway it's the wrong species of tree for the location. Looks like sycamore.




Actually, I googled "tree trimming butcher" and it brought that up as a bad trimming, I'll see if I can find a link again, but definately wrong geographical area. Ashpluhde has been doing some serious hacking in my area lately...looks very similar, except they don't have everything gone up top, they leave a couple 3 foot nubs.


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## treeminator (Jun 3, 2006)

Freakingstang said:


> Actually, I googled "tree trimming butcher" and it brought that up as a bad trimming, I'll see if I can find a link again, but definately wrong geographical area. Ashpluhde has been doing some serious hacking in my area lately...looks very similar, except they don't have everything gone up top, they leave a couple 3 foot nubs.



no way that's a trimming. it's gotta be a removal waiting to be finished.


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## Grizzly (Jun 9, 2006)

Sunrise Guy said:


> OK, I know our business is getting glutted these days with more and more tree guys and gals. I also know that illegals are willing to work for very little pay. With that in mind, I have been bidding very low (as I see it) on work in my area, but still getting underbid. I'm honestly wondering if I'm going to keep trying to make my living doing this thing that I love.
> 
> I went out on a bid today that was not too much work, but no walk in the park, either. Visualize a big hackberry about fifty feet tall. At about thirty feet or so, a codominant leader with a great deal of brushy growth on it, all very healthy, had split and fallen to the left of the tree as you face it. I believe it was a victim of some bad storms we've had lately. The branch was still attached at the crotch and would take more than a little T330 to cut it free. Some of it was resting on the ground, but a good part would need to be rigged down as a fence is directly under it. Half of the branch was in the neighbor's yard, the part not touching the ground was resting on the roof of a storage shed with a corrugated roof on it. From the split we're talking about wood starting at about 16" and then tapering off toward the tip.
> 
> ...




Thats messed up man. Did he even have it done or was he just yanking your chain. i had the same thing happen a few weeks ago on a land clearing job. i bided it at $650 and the next day the guy up the stree mowing the lawn offered $325.  I hope they lost their ass for bidding it so low.


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## avalontree (Jun 9, 2006)

Are you guys finding that you are having to go lower and lower on your bids these days in order to get work? Is your area experiencing more and more illegals invading it? I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks, in advance.[/QUOTE]

Where I am there aren't too many tree businesses. There is one guy who like does it all and has it all; he's all set. BUt for guys like me, who dont do this full time anymore, there is some strange competition. One guy in the area will do a job for like hundreds less than I would do. I have to speculte because I have only seen one job he did and what the price was for. I have no idea if he has insurance or what he does, but it is frustrating to be crazy underbid. 

I like the outdo him in quality comment. Problem is gettin the job to show the quality. The other challenge is being to do a job that shows quality, i.e once you remove the tree you will never work on that tree again.


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## Grizzly (Jun 10, 2006)

avalontree said:


> Are you guys finding that you are having to go lower and lower on your bids these days in order to get work? Is your area experiencing more and more illegals invading it? I'd really like some feedback here. Thanks, in advance.



Where I am there aren't too many tree businesses. There is one guy who like does it all and has it all; he's all set. BUt for guys like me, who dont do this full time anymore, there is some strange competition. One guy in the area will do a job for like hundreds less than I would do. I have to speculte because I have only seen one job he did and what the price was for. I have no idea if he has insurance or what he does, but it is frustrating to be crazy underbid. 

I like the outdo him in quality comment. Problem is gettin the job to show the quality. The other challenge is being to do a job that shows quality, i.e once you remove the tree you will never work on that tree again.[/QUOTE]

You need to talk to the guy and see what hes all about. He must be new to the industry and dosn't know what it's going for. theres a guy i had subed some stuff out to, and he stole the job. i was so pissed and i wouldn't mind seeing his P.O.S. truck made into a fire pit from where it sits.:censored: :bang:


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

computeruser said:


> I think my perspective might be a bit different from a lot of folks here, as I am only an occasional tree guy - one of those "evil" part-timers. The thing is that in the past two months I have had more people calling me up wanting tree services performed than I know what to do with and many that want things done that are way beyond my ability and my equipment. And it is all referrals - I do no advertising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well written


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

]"if he isnt gonna pay $200 to get his tree sorted by a professional then definitly isnt gonna pay for the rest of the stuff you said i.e. pests to check root damge,"

Many tree owners do not know about tree care. they value the cutting less and less, but that does not mean they can not learn about the value of tree care.

Many won't, I agree, but some will once they learn what it is and how it saves money and trees.


> Many still think an arborist removes fetuses.


Hadn't thought of it that way, but that's dead-on accurate. seems like lots of people love their frackin lawns, but the trees don't count. Maybe their necks dont work


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

*touche*



DDM said:


> Hmmmmmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ummm am i missing something?



touche


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

*people size each other up*

the appearence of success is often the most important part of success, for good or for bad.

We all have our prejudices.
Even trees too.
Walnuts kill other trees.
Box elders rise like Darth Vader and take all of thes un.
and then there is the whole cedar/apple rust problem.


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## Grizzly (Jun 11, 2006)

avalontree said:


> well written



door to door in a nice niighborhood works just as well.


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## clearance (Jun 11, 2006)

Freakingstang said:


> Actually, I googled "tree trimming butcher" and it brought that up as a bad trimming, I'll see if I can find a link again, but definately wrong geographical area. Ashpluhde has been doing some serious hacking in my area lately...looks very similar, except they don't have everything gone up top, they leave a couple 3 foot nubs.


Spelled Asplundh. Why are the utility guys the whipping boy? I wish whenever some dogooder complained the tree in question was cut down, right then and there. Do you like your power, like it when the lights work, ****. Next time Asplundh comes by to trim, take them a case of beer and thank them, they help provide a service you would find very hard to live without.


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## Grizzly (Jun 11, 2006)

clearance said:


> Spelled Asplundh. Why are the utility guys the whipping boy? I wish whenever some dogooder complained the tree in question was cut down, right then and there. Do you like your power, like it when the lights work, ****. Next time Asplundh comes by to trim, take them a case of beer and thank them, they help provide a service you would find very hard to live without.



5 out of 10 customers ask if I want a beer, after I have the place all cleaned up. If i took every offer, I would be a stumbaling drunk by now.
 so i can bounce off the walls!


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## Climb020 (Jun 12, 2006)

clearance said:


> Spelled Asplundh. Why are the utility guys the whipping boy? I wish whenever some dogooder complained the tree in question was cut down, right then and there. Do you like your power, like it when the lights work, ****. Next time Asplundh comes by to trim, take them a case of beer and thank them, they help provide a service you would find very hard to live without.



I would much rather have them cut down then trimmed the way line clearance guys do. One I have in mind is Nelson's. Better to have nothing then a ugly, useless, hat rack. Leaving the pruning to guys/gals that know what they are doing and let the line men cut the trees down near the wires then leave us with an eyesore of a road side.:angry2:


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## daveyclimber (Jun 13, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> I would much rather have them cut down then trimmed the way line clearance guys do. One I have in mind is Nelson's. Better to have nothing then a ugly, useless, hat rack. Leaving the pruning to guys/gals that know what they are doing and let the line men cut the trees down near the wires then leave us with an eyesore of a road side.:angry2:




Do you realize that in most cases the "Trimmer" has no say in the way a tree is trimmed for utilities sake? Didn't think so! Yes I agree that many yearly trims should be removed but they won't in many cases because the Power Co doesn't want to be labled as tree killers or they don't want to pay . Do you realize that these companies only get paid $25 or so for a trim and probably up to 8 times that for some removals. Do you see the price difference?
I did utility work for many years, I know the ins and outs of the business and it is very competitive and cuthroat. Take your comments to the Power Companies


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## TreeTopKid (Jun 13, 2006)

avalontree said:


> ]"if he isnt gonna pay $200 to get his tree sorted by a professional then definitly isnt gonna pay for the rest of the stuff you said i.e. pests to check root damge,"
> 
> Many tree owners do not know about tree care. they value the cutting less and less, but that does not mean they can not learn about the value of tree care.
> 
> ...




True. Many of my customers in the UK (Im in the USA now) called me in to have there tree removed untill they were re-educated about it's value, and have grown to love their tree. I then go back time, and again for the maintenance. Very often when people call you in to fell a tree it's just because they are at a loss as to what to do about their garden and usually appreciate the advice. Thats why you should always offer free advice when you advertise. Free advice has gained me many customers.


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## avalontree (Jun 15, 2006)

*liverpool*

I used lived in Liverpool for about a year, before I ever got into climbing, and now I wish i could go back for that same amount of time to check out the amazing history of trees in you country!

first thing I noticed was how green it was!


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## TreeTopKid (Jun 19, 2006)

avalontree said:


> I used lived in Liverpool for about a year, before I ever got into climbing, and now I wish i could go back for that same amount of time to check out the amazing history of trees in you country!
> 
> first thing I noticed was how green it was!




True it is very green. But I was amazed at how green Texas was when arrived too there's some good sized Pines here. That tree on my avitar was a one off though. It was a large Black Poplar over 130ft but sadly the roots were rotten and it had to go.

Looking forward to starting work here now. You should try to get back to England for a trip if you can Forest of Dean and Nottingham forest are really nice. Also the New forest in Hampshire is beautiful. Nice speaking with you.


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## Grizzly (Aug 6, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Maybe they will, if they look hard enough to find out support was removed during pruning. Truth is, they do not look too closely at trees when they are standing.
> An overall reduction of the sprawling side would have bought indefinite years, but if the client was not happy with the risk I would not have advocated against removal; too high a target rating.
> 
> aS it was, he was a pennypincher who got what he deserved for making Lincoln squeal so painfully.
> ...



dont let that cheep scate degrade you for you serices. If he isn't willing to pay what you say, then let him do it him self. When he dose that, he'll hopefully understand why it was that much. Don't get jipt. I learned the hard way


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## ClimbingHigh (Aug 18, 2006)

Sunrise don't think you're alone. Alot of people have the same situation going on. (yours is the most read thread with over 3000 people. That should tell you something.) I think your location has alot to do with your specific reason for having to fight so hard with the underbidding. Since the "if you cant beat em join em" idea would not be a good idea bidding wise. If the unskilled masses that are willing to do daylabor (or the like) are flooding your market, then as a business owner, you can capitlize on the lower cost labor if you need to compete on price. It doesn't seem to me that this trend of people "commuting" or even living "lean" to work where the pay is better and then go home to see their pay triple or quadruple in buying power, will stop anytime soon especially since you are living in one of the wealthiest countries in the world and maybe closer than the rest of us to a county, hell a continent that is not. I feel for you, and know how it is to a degree. But the main thing is that you can do what you love, you just have to adapt. Adapting to a new situation is what you do all the time in the tree, so use that same fire down on the ground. As an entrepreneur you can probably do better for yourself by just getting out of the flood and going where they can't. Things like Corp. contracts, high-end customers, and government contracts....that sort of thing. 
When it comes down to it maybe the low bid competitors just don't know. You could even work at the problem from the inside by networking and subbing some of the not so technical work to your low bid competitors. 

This problem is just like most peoples first tree. Just don't freeze up or come down chances are you can still do what you love.

Good luck to you.


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## Grizzly (Aug 19, 2006)

It's nice to make $60 an hour when your really hauling ass. Yet when you have some hack degrading you as an individual and your job, what do you do?
I can't dump my debris in his truck when it's parked on the street. It would releave the high dump costs and gain a bit of revenge, but it wont help the situation in getting rid of this guy underbidding everyone on the block.

not only thatv but how can you get all of those cheep day labor tree trimmers to woork for you at what they may tell the customer when they get to the job or better yet if the roach off of your new clients. What happens than when there out with your tools, truck and chipper and working for penuts. It just becomes a tug of way between you the worker and the customer. What happens then?


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## Manco (Aug 20, 2006)

What do you do when you underbid yourself? I recently did a job where I was the only bidder, got the job, and was happy with the rate I made. Halfway through the job the client tells me he was expecting me to charge more than double what I quoted him !


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## Grizzly (Aug 20, 2006)

I've done that before and I typically kick my self for being such a low bidder. it's not like I'm after their money but a few more bills wouldn't hurt to make the job more profitable.:notrolls2:


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## RolloriClimber (Aug 27, 2006)

I think no matter how good you are at pricing you still will underbid a job on occasion you just have to take the good with the bad.

Ther are guys by me that bid way low which they don't get it hurts all of us when they bid low.My old boss called me the other day he was in a bind and asked me to do 3 estimates for him. I did a got every one one of the estimates was waiting to get 3 more bids I was $ 150 higher than all the others and still got the job.my old boss used to drive me crazy with under bidding . He could figure out how I would get the jobs at doubling his price, I told him I tell the people the truth and what is going to happen and what could happen and don't blow no smoke up their butts.

My friend and his partner where doing a job and it went a lot quicker than they expected and his partner said the customer asked if we could take some off the price since it is going so quickly.My friend told his partner would he pay us more if it took longer?


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