# Who Took My Freedom???



## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

In the name of environmental conservation our freedoms are being raped from us.When will it end?Who will fire the first shot? Here is what is happening in NYS.Hope you can read it.


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## Grace Tree (Jun 6, 2008)

If you can locate a copy of regulation it might be more informative than the newspaper article. In one sentence they state that there's a ban on all non treated firewood; whatever that means. In another it says that they're banning importing firewood from other states. That seems like it may be a sound practice considering what the ash borer has done in Michigan and here in Ohio. Hardly a rape of your individual rights. It would be interesting to know more.
Phil


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

The point is I cant ship wood over 50 miles in this state.And under 50 you have to get a certificate to do so.(For personal use only)Cant you see what they are doing? This is how it starts:censored:


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## Ed*L (Jun 6, 2008)

You don't get it do you? It's being done for a reason and a damn good one.

If you haven't seen the impact of EAB, maybe you should come to Michigan for a little while. How would YOU like it if 30 to 40% of the trees in YOUR woods were dying and there is nothing you can do about it.

Ed


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## Grace Tree (Jun 6, 2008)

Well I skimmed it the first time I read it and I missed the 50 mile limitations. I can see that you're pretty upset over it and maybe for good reason but I still would like to see the whole regulation in print. Don't they have to receive public comment before the institute new regs in NY?
Phil


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

Small Wood said:


> Well I skimmed it the first time I read it and I missed the 50 mile limitations. I can see that you're pretty upset over it and maybe for good reason but I still would like to see the whole regulation in print. Don't they have to receive public comment before the institute new regs in NY?
> Phil



Are you kidding?This is NY.They do what they want in Albany.


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

Ed*L said:


> You don't get it do you? It's being done for a reason and a damn good one.
> 
> If you haven't seen the impact of EAB, maybe you should come to Michigan for a little while. How would YOU like it if 30 to 40% of the trees in YOUR woods were dying and there is nothing you can do about it.
> 
> Ed



Yes I do get it.So you are saying it is better for the insects to stay it the wood so they can jump from tree to tree instead of me cutting it down and burning it.Thats going to work.If they can travel from Asia and Europe.What is 50 miles to them.You have to kill them where they live.
And yes I have seen the impact.dutch Elm has ruined this area.They should have taken care of it when it started


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## PB (Jun 6, 2008)

Ed*L said:


> You don't get it do you? It's being done for a reason and a damn good one.
> 
> If you haven't seen the impact of EAB, maybe you should come to Michigan for a little while. How would YOU like it if 30 to 40% of the trees in YOUR woods were dying and there is nothing you can do about it.
> 
> Ed



What he said. If you spread tree insects around because it is your freedom, you might destroy an entire tree population. How is that going to help your freedom? 

I don't think you understand the severity of damage that insects can do to trees. Michigan is a very good example, go visit and tell us if you have the same attitude.


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

I guess you are all blind to close to the tree that you cant see the forest.I understand that there is a problem with insects.but there is also a movement to stop us from burning wood.How the hell by stoping me from cutting wood.and bringing it over 50 miles and then burning it going to stop the spread of these insects?


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> What he said. If you spread tree insects around because it is your freedom, you might destroy an entire tree population. How is that going to help your freedom?
> 
> I don't think you understand the severity of damage that insects can do to trees. Michigan is a very good example, go visit and tell us if you have the same attitude.



we have a infestation with maple,ash.elm and others.so I do see it.get rid of those that are infected so the others will servive


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## Ed*L (Jun 6, 2008)

mantis said:


> Yes I do get it.So you are saying it is better for the insects to stay it the wood so they can jump from tree to tree instead of me cutting it down and burning it.Thats going to work.If they can travel from Asia and Europe.What is 50 miles to them.You have to kill them where they live.
> And yes I have seen the impact.dutch Elm has ruined this area.They should have taken care of it when it started



All it takes is one infected block of wood to be moved and left at a campsite somewhere outside of the infected area. Nobody sees it, nobody knows anything until it's to late.
In my experience, EAB do not hang around the ground, once airborne, they stay in the crown of the tree, prefering to lay thier eggs in crotch areas. The initial insect hatch will be in the upper part of a tree, you will never know anything has happened. By the time you find exit holes at ground level, you are in trouble, the borers will have been it the area for a couple of years. They only travel a short distane each year, a 50 mile move would give them a jump of many years.
The movement of infected wood and nursery stock is why the insects have spread so rapidly.

As for Dutch Elm disease, it's nothing like EAB. We still have Elms here, I harvested 3 last year that got me over 500lb/ft of lumber. There are still young Elm growing and there will be for a long time. I think EAB will be more like a wildfire, within 5-10 years they will be all gone once an area is infected.

Ed


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

so you would suggest just do nothing.Dutch Elm is caused by a bettle.and is rappid around here.we have a ton of elm that were healthy a few years ago but now are dead.


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## moss (Jun 6, 2008)

mantis said:


> so you would suggest just do nothing.Dutch Elm is caused by a bettle.and is rappid around here.we have a ton of elm that were healthy a few years ago but now are dead.



No one's saying do nothing, they're saying don't move firewood around. EAB has been spreading much more quickly because of firewood shipped out of infested zones. It's typical that law can't be fine tuned for local conditions, it's a big hammer. What's the problem with getting a permit so you can move it further than 50 miles? In a business scenario you pass the permit cost to the customer. I'm sure there was plenty of argument about where to set the limit - 50, 100, 200 miles? This isn't being pushed by environmentalists, the concern is coming from state and federal forestry agencies which are not known for putting the interests of the environment ahead of commercial forestry. Major league baseball is looking at total wipeout of mature ash stands in the northeast and loss of source material for bats if EAB isn't contained (probably won't be), last I heard MLB isn't a major environmental lobbying group.
-moss


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## J.Walker (Jun 6, 2008)

This is the first I've heard about this! Albany is doing little about spreading this news. So now the DEC pulls you over and hit's you with a fine and a surcharge too. More money for them and less for you. I'll comply, maybe things will change before winter.


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## PB (Jun 6, 2008)

J.Walker said:


> This is the first I've heard about this! Albany is doing little about spreading this news. So now the DEC pulls you over and hit's you with a fine and a surcharge too. More money for them and less for you. I'll comply, maybe things will change before winter.



There are billboards on I-86 warning of fines. I am not sure where you are near, but these types of boards are all over the PA/NY border from both states.


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## cjk (Jun 6, 2008)

I believe Wisconsin has a similar law. My brother was coming over to get some wood for camping, we had to get out a map to see if he was legal.


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## Grace Tree (Jun 6, 2008)

I believe it's just a fact of life from now on. I have trees and chips on the ground in two adjacent counties but I'm not able to move them to my yard because those counties are EAB quarantined and mine isn't. The homeowners are cooperative once they're informed. No one's complaining about their losing their freedoms. Sorry the whole thing has you so torqued off but in today's world pests and diseases of plants, animals and humans can go global pretty quickly.
Regards,
Phil


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## Zodiac45 (Jun 6, 2008)

Small Wood said:


> I believe it's just a fact of life from now on. I have trees and chips on the ground in two adjacent counties but I'm not able to move them to my yard because those counties are EAB quarantined and mine isn't. The homeowners are cooperative once they're informed. No one's complaining about their losing their freedoms. Sorry the whole thing has you so torqued off but in today's world pests and diseases of plants, animals and humans can go global pretty quickly.
> Regards,
> Phil



+1 Absolutely right Phil,

Maybe Plant Bio or someone can say why this happens? It may be human impact or just certain weather conditions, that allow a bug infestation too get out of control, but that's what happens and they are only trying to slow it down by limiting the movement of wood in infected areas. 

Here's in Maine we have/had Tameracks (hatmatack) Eastern Larch that was once the king of ship building lumber. The stuff lasted forever underwater and even exposed was pretty good. The Larch Beetle put an end too the commercial viability of that tree. Still too this day their greying skeletons can still be seen standing in boggy areas, as a testiment too the durability of the species. They are starting to make a comeback and I for one hope they do. It's an excellent tree with a long history of medicinal, and commercial uses.


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

J.Walker said:


> This is the first I've heard about this! Albany is doing little about spreading this news. So now the DEC pulls you over and hit's you with a fine and a surcharge too. More money for them and less for you. I'll comply, maybe things will change before winter.



You are dead on with this statement.How are people going to heat their homes this winter if you cant get firewood.


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## mantis (Jun 6, 2008)

moss said:


> No one's saying do nothing, they're saying don't move firewood around. EAB has been spreading much more quickly because of firewood shipped out of infested zones. It's typical that law can't be fine tuned for local conditions, it's a big hammer. What's the problem with getting a permit so you can move it further than 50 miles? In a business scenario you pass the permit cost to the customer. I'm sure there was plenty of argument about where to set the limit - 50, 100, 200 miles? This isn't being pushed by environmentalists, the concern is coming from state and federal forestry agencies which are not known for putting the interests of the environment ahead of commercial forestry. Major league baseball is looking at total wipeout of mature ash stands in the northeast and loss of source material for bats if EAB isn't contained (probably won't be), last I heard MLB isn't a major environmental lobbying group.
> -moss



You cant move it more than 50 miles period! and you need a permit to move it less than 50 miles
http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2359.html#pagecontent

Emergency Regulations
Firewood Restrictions to Protect Forests from Invasive Species
The purpose of this emergency rule is to reduce the risk of introduction and spread of invasive insects and diseases of trees by preventing untreated firewood from entering New York State and restricting the movement, sale and possession, within the State, of untreated firewood that originates in New York State.

This emergency regulation is in effect for 90 days beginning June 3, 2008.

For more information, please see the Frequently Asked Questions for Firewood Regulation page. A Self-Issued Certificate of Source (100 kb pdf) form is required for the transport of untreated firewood for personal use, less than 50-miles from its New York source.

If you have any questions regarding this emergency firewood regulation, please contact:

Bruce Williamson
NYS DEC, Bureau of Private Land Services
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233-4253

Telephone: (518) 402-9425
E-mail: [email protected]

6 NYCRR 192.5
Express Terms

A new section 192.5 is added to 6 NYCRR Part 192 to read as follows:

§192.5 Firewood Restrictions to Protect Forests from Invasive Species.

(a) Definitions. For the purposes of this section, these terms shall be defined as follows:

(1) "Department" shall mean the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation.

(2) "Dealer" shall mean any person or business, other than a firewood producer, that sells firewood.

(3) "Firewood" shall mean any kindling, logs, chunkwood, boards, timbers or other wood of any tree species cut and split, or not split, into a form and size appropriate for use as fuel.

(4) "Firewood producer" shall mean any person or business who processes kindling, logs, chunkwood, boards, timbers or other wood of any tree species into firewood for sale.

(5) "New York-Approved Treated Firewood / Pest-Free" shall mean a labeling standard for firewood that may be used by a firewood producer who complies with the provisions of subdivision (d) of this section.

(6) "New York-Sourced Firewood" shall mean a labeling standard for firewood used by a New York firewood producer who complies with the provisions of subdivision (e) of this section.

(7) "Person" shall mean an individual, organization, corporation or partnership, other than the department, public authority, county, town, village, city, municipal agency or public corporation.

(8) "Phytosanitary certificate" or "plant health certificate" shall mean an official document issued by a state or country from which firewood is being exported which certifies that the firewood meets the phytosanitary regulations of New York State.

(9) "Self-issued Certificate of Source" shall mean certification, on a form prescribed by the department, that is signed by a person who desires to move firewood, for personal use, from one location to another, within New York in compliance with the provisions of subdivision (f) of this section.

(10) "Source" shall mean the village, town or city, which the firewood producer declares as the source of the firewood. All trees or logs that are processed into firewood that is declared to be from the named source shall have been grown within 50 miles of the named source, prior to being obtained by the firewood producer.

(11) "Untreated Firewood" shall mean any firewood that has not been treated in accordance with the provisions of subdivision (d) of this section.

(12) "50 miles" shall mean a 50 mile linear distance determined by using the scale-bar on a New York State road map, atlas or gazetteer, from the point identified as the stated source of the firewood in question.

(b) Prohibition on Transport of Untreated Firewood into New York State.

No person shall transport, by any means, Untreated Firewood into New York State, for sale or use within the State from any location outside the State.

(c) Restrictions on Transport, Sale and/or Possession of Untreated Firewood within New York State.

(1) No person shall transport, sell or possess Untreated Firewood within the State unless its source is identified according to the criteria set forth in either subdivision (e) or (f) of this section.

(2) No person shall move Untreated Firewood produced, from trees that are grown in New York State, more than 50 miles from the source of the firewood.

(3) Dealers of New York-Sourced Firewood shall provide copies of the firewood source documentation, provided by the firewood producer, to all purchasers.

(4) Firewood producers shall maintain records of log or wood purchases or procurement to verify the sources of their firewood. Such records shall be made available for inspection by the department upon request.

(d) Standards for Treatment and Labeling.

(1) Firewood may be labeled "New York-Approved Treated Firewood / Pest-Free if accompanied by a Firewood producer's certification that it was heat treated to achieve a minimum wood core temperature of 71°C for a minimum of 75 minutes. Such treatment may employ kiln-drying or other treatments approved by the department that achieve this specification through use of steam, hot water, dry heat or other methods.

(2) A Firewood producer's certification shall indicate the producer's name, legal address and the village, town or city of the business on a label, bill of sale or lading, purchase receipt or invoice accompanying such firewood.

(3) Producers of "New York-Approved Treated Firewood / Pest-Free" firewood shall maintain, for at least one year from the date of treatment, records that document the treatment method and the volume of firewood treated, and shall also allow department officials to inspect such records and the facilities used to treat firewood upon request.

(4) Phytosanitary certificates from an out-of-state firewood producer's State Department of Agriculture or the United States Department of Agriculture Animal Plant Health Inspection Service (USDA APHIS) may be used to verify the treatment method and volumes of treated firewood that is produced out-of-state.

(e) "New York-Sourced Firewood" requirements.

(1) The "New York-Sourced Firewood" designation may be applied only to Untreated Firewood that has its source wholly within New York State, and is transported not more than 50 miles from the firewood producer's declared source of the firewood.

(2) Dealers of "New York-Sourced Firewood" shall provide to customers the name of the producer of the firewood, the producer's legal address and the source of the firewood, as provided by the firewood producer, on a label, bill of sale or lading, purchase receipt or invoice, attached to or accompanying such firewood they sell.

(f) Self-issued Certificate of Source.

(1) Persons who cut and transport Untreated Firewood for personal use must complete and possess a Self-Issued Certificate of Source from the department in accordance with this section.

(2) A Self-Issued Certificate of Source must specify the source of the firewood being cut and transported.

(3) Self-Issued Certificate of Source forms shall be available on the department's website, http://www.dec.state.ny.gov/, and at the department's regional offices.

(4) No person who cuts and/or transports firewood for personal use shall move such firewood more than 50 miles from its source unless it is treated in accordance with subdivision (d) of this section.

(5) Persons who cut firewood on their own property, for their own use on that same property, are exempt from the requirements of this subdivision.


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## PB (Jun 6, 2008)

Zodiac45 said:


> +1 Absolutely right Phil,
> 
> Maybe Plant Bio or someone can say why this happens? It may be human impact or just certain weather conditions, that allow a bug infestation too get out of control, but that's what happens and they are only trying to slow it down by limiting the movement of wood in infected areas.
> 
> Here's in Maine we have/had Tameracks (hatmatack) Eastern Larch that was once the king of ship building lumber. The stuff lasted forever underwater and even exposed was pretty good. The Larch Beetle put an end too the commercial viability of that tree. Still too this day their greying skeletons can still be seen standing in boggy areas, as a testiment too the durability of the species. They are starting to make a comeback and I for one hope they do. It's an excellent tree with a long history of medicinal, and commercial uses.



I am not an entomologist, but I will take a stab at it. You can think of it as population control. If you were confined to a small area with limited resources and unable to move freely about, would you have 10 kids? Kind of the same with the EAB. If it is localized it controls itself in a way, albeit not good by any means but it spreads much slower. If you take these insects to fresh wood, they multiply like rabbits until they are saturated again. This goes on and on. If I remember correctly the EAB is not native and has been introduced from a different continent from infected wood. The same principle that Mantis was complaining about, freedom. *Some country didn't want to take away someone's "freedom" and stop the spread of the bug now we have it here.*

The weather does also help with insect control in general. A cold winter will usually kill off a large portion of the insects, but with global warming this is having less of an effect each year. Look at the pine forests of Alaska for an example of this.

Again, i am not an entomolgist, just general ecology.


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## computeruser (Jun 6, 2008)

Ed*L said:


> You don't get it do you? It's being done for a reason and a damn good one.
> 
> If you haven't seen the impact of EAB, maybe you should come to Michigan for a little while. How would YOU like it if 30 to 40% of the trees in YOUR woods were dying and there is nothing you can do about it.
> 
> Ed



Ed is right. The damage that EAB has done has been incredible, and has to be seen to be believed.

The secondary consequences of EAB are what worry me the most. The spread of invasive trees and understory shrubs filling in where ash stands once were found is already becoming evident. Entire forest ecosystems have been turned upside-down. And what are the odds that a hardwood forest that gets overrun with honeysuckle and ailanthus will suddenly repair itself? Heck, I can hardly kill that stuff with Garlon and a chainsaw!

I dislike government intervention into personal decision-making at least as much as anyone else, but there are certain areas where the externalities of a personal choice are just too great (and oftentimes too far removed from the person making the personal choice) to be left unregulated. EAB, poisoning the groundwater, filling wetlands, stuff like this needs to be addressed in a way that balances personal freedom and considers the objective wisdom gained through past experience.


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## secureland (Jun 6, 2008)

computeruser said:


> Ed is right. The damage that EAB has done has been incredible, and has to be seen to be believed.
> 
> The secondary consequences of EAB are what worry me the most. The spread of invasive trees and understory shrubs filling in where ash stands once were found is already becoming evident. Entire forest ecosystems have been turned upside-down. And what are the odds that a hardwood forest that gets overrun with honeysuckle and ailanthus will suddenly repair itself? Heck, I can hardly kill that stuff with Garlon and a chainsaw!
> 
> I dislike government intervention into personal decision-making at least as much as anyone else, but there are certain areas where the externalities of a personal choice are just too great (and oftentimes too far removed from the person making the personal choice) to be left unregulated. EAB, poisoning the groundwater, filling wetlands, stuff like this needs to be addressed in a way that balances personal freedom and considers the objective wisdom gained through past experience.



The future will bring on many more legal issues like this
For example, to what extent will people be criminalized if they are hurting the environment that their neighbor uses? Second-hand smoke has been targeted and is consistent with this concept. In the future the regulations for the individual (not solely the corporation) will increase the personal responsibility for maintaining good water tables. Water is becoming a precious commodity and that makes it a good example. Be prepared to be nice, in a way you didn't knoiw you could.

Bill


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## Fuzly (Jun 7, 2008)

cjk said:


> I believe Wisconsin has a similar law. My brother was coming over to get some wood for camping, we had to get out a map to see if he was legal.



Yep-50 miles

DNR pushed for the state rule and U.S. Forest Service adopted a similar emergency rule for the National Forests here.

I thought it was a little over the top too-until I saw the photos from Michigan.

Personally, I think we should fill the St. Lawrence in with dirt and use our own wood. Look at all the invasive species that come in through the Great Lakes and end up in and around them-sea lamprey, zebra mussell, EAB, and countless more. Just one man's opinion, I may be wrong.


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## treemandan (Jun 7, 2008)

mantis said:


> I guess you are all blind to close to the tree that you cant see the forest.I understand that there is a problem with insects.but there is also a movement to stop us from burning wood.How the hell by stoping me from cutting wood.and bringing it over 50 miles and then burning it going to stop the spread of these insects?



Do you really think they are trying to stop wood burning? I don't think that is quite possible but...


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## mantis (Jun 7, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> I am not an entomologist, but I will take a stab at it. You can think of it as population control. If you were confined to a small area with limited resources and unable to move freely about, would you have 10 kids? Kind of the same with the EAB. If it is localized it controls itself in a way, albeit not good by any means but it spreads much slower. If you take these insects to fresh wood, they multiply like rabbits until they are saturated again. This goes on and on. If I remember correctly the EAB is not native and has been introduced from a different continent from infected wood. The same principle that Mantis was complaining about, freedom. *Some country didn't want to take away someone's "freedom" and stop the spread of the bug now we have it here.*
> 
> The weather does also help with insect control in general. A cold winter will usually kill off a large portion of the insects, but with global warming this is having less of an effect each year. Look at the pine forests of Alaska for an example of this.
> 
> Again, i am not an entomolgist, just general ecology.



Global warming? You by that one? No wonder why you would be for this.
The government has never solved a problem only created them.It is up to us to fix this and this is not it.This is not something that just happened.It has been a problem for years.and now with heating oil at $4.37 a gallon NOW they want to fix it.Just like those who are against outside wood boilers.All the same


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## PB (Jun 7, 2008)

mantis said:


> Global warming? You by that one? No wonder why you would be for this.
> The government has never solved a problem only created them.It is up to us to fix this and this is not it.This is not something that just happened.It has been a problem for years.and now with heating oil at $4.37 a gallon NOW they want to fix it.Just like those who are against outside wood boilers.All the same



Look at the documented, scientific studies of the pine decline in Alaska if you doubt me. 

So you say we should fix it? How does spreading the EAB around fix it? You are the problem, not the solution.

I could talk until I am blue in the face, but you are convinced that the government is out to get you. Who is that over your shoulder, big brother?


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## mantis (Jun 7, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> Look at the documented, scientific studies of the pine decline in Alaska if you doubt me.
> 
> So you say we should fix it? How does spreading the EAB around fix it? You are the problem, not the solution.
> 
> I could talk until I am blue in the face, but you are convinced that the government is out to get you. Who is that over your shoulder, big brother?



I got your documents right here buddy Do me a favor and hold your breath until I get back to ya.Tree hugger. Mark my words and you will see.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2008)

Freedom is not an excuse to ruin things for everyone. I would
think I would comply out of concern for the health of the woods.
We could say, who took my freedom to play with radioactive isotopes
so my garden gets enough rain! I hate losing freedoms as much as anyone
and don't understand some of the seemingly stupid laws however, usually
there is some kinda reason for them.


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## PB (Jun 7, 2008)

mantis said:


> I got your documents right here buddy Do me a favor and hold your breath until I get back to ya.Tree hugger. Mark my words and you will see.



Waiting patiently. Prove me wrong. I will need citations though. 

Do you even know what you are proving me wrong on? I get the feeling that you feel you are right and find anything/anyone that will agree with you. A treehugger I may be, but I know when I am wrong and in this case I am not.

An angry person is seldom reasonable, a reasonable person is seldom angry.


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## ray benson (Jun 7, 2008)

Small Wood said:


> If you can locate a copy of regulation it might be more informative than the newspaper article. In one sentence they state that there's a ban on all non treated firewood; whatever that means. In another it says that they're banning importing firewood from other states. That seems like it may be a sound practice considering what the ash borer has done in Michigan and here in Ohio. Hardly a rape of your individual rights. It would be interesting to know more.
> Phil



Here is that regulation.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2359.html


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## J.Walker (Jun 7, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> There are billboards on I-86 warning of fines. I am not sure where you are near, but these types of boards are all over the PA/NY border from both states.




PlantBiologist; The town of Bristol, NY where I live has no billboards at all.... well maybe on the ski lift towers at Bristol Mountain. 
I was thinking about this restriction today while removing some dead wood from a customers yard. If the DEC checked the bed of my pickup truck they would lock-it-up and quarantine it, it's full of debris!
We do try to clean our tools inbetween jobs, but the truck beds always seem forgotten. We need to be more carefull.
I wonder if their is some type of economic relief offered by my state for this hardship?


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## secureland (Jun 7, 2008)

J.Walker said:


> I wonder if their is some type of economic relief offered by my state for this hardship?




There easily could be, they just have to find some folks to pay and the money will gladly be redistributed. 

*The Empire State and the management at Albany Inc. thank you for your business.*


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 7, 2008)

With freedom comes responsibility, and when the masses aren't responsible enough to do the right thing, regulations are born to force them to be responsible.

Ian


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## Gologit (Jun 7, 2008)

Haywire Haywood said:


> With freedom comes responsibility, and when the masses aren't responsible enough to do the right thing, regulations are born to force them to be responsible.
> 
> Ian



True. Unfortunate...but true.


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## 2dogs (Jun 7, 2008)

Haywire Haywood said:


> With freedom comes responsibility, and when the masses aren't responsible enough to do the right thing, regulations are born to force them to be responsible.
> 
> Ian



Well spoken. Err typed, processed...whatever.

Here in Cali we have major problems with pitch canker and pine bark beetles. Preventing the transport of trees or firewood where pitch canker is suspected helps stop the spread of this incureable didease. Common tools like chainsaws need to be disinfected after use on a cankered tree.

Here is a link re pitch canker.
http://ceres.ca.gov/foreststeward/html/PPC.html


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## 2dogs (Jun 7, 2008)

Mantis your profile says you are a LEO. Kinda strange talk for that type of job.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 7, 2008)

No No, LEO is his sign... I'm a Sagittarius.   

Ian


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## 2dogs (Jun 8, 2008)

Haywire Haywood said:


> No No, LEO is his sign... I'm a Sagittarius.
> 
> Ian



You lookin for trouble mister?


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## SRT-Tech (Jun 8, 2008)

no big deal really, get all the permits, set up a portable kiln (really easy to build, kerosene or propane heater inside a canvas tent, stack your wood, heat up for two hours, done - take it home)

we have a major portion of our forests in BC killed by pine beetles....i sure dont want some firewood hack cutting wood and transporting it around the province.....


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 8, 2008)

2 hours in a tent with a kerosene heater will get the wood hot enough to kill the bug and their eggs? Got any external reference for that? It would be an interesting read.

Ian


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## SRT-Tech (Jun 8, 2008)

some of those construciton heaters can output over a 100 celcuis and with the fan that hot air moves quickly in an enclosed space. I did this in a canvas tent all last year to rapidly dry fresh split firewood for immediate sale. After a few hours in the tent the wood was bone dry and hot. (not burning but hot to handle without gloves). The NY regs want only 71 deg fro two hours.....

sicne i started this setup, another firewwood producer in my area has set up a super heated warehouse with this setup and tripled his sales. No more leaving the wood for a year to dry out.


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## mantis (Jun 12, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Mantis your profile says you are a LEO. Kinda strange talk for that type of job.



???? and what exactly does a leo do???


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## Zodiac45 (Jun 12, 2008)

mantis said:


> ???? and what exactly does a leo do???



The right thing.


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## Bushler (Jun 12, 2008)

I never have a problem with regulations that are sound and based on data. Its the policical knee jerk regs. that bother me.

The abuse of the endangered species bull is case in point. Using litigation to keep from harvesting mature stands of timber in the National Forests is just plain wrong.

Protecting our forests from disease/bugs is the right thing to do. Big difference.

The only time I hug a tree is when I'm 100' from the ground, hanging by rope and spurs...and those days are long gone, (I hope).


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## motoroilmccall (Jun 12, 2008)

I have to agree. If people actually knew that trees had a life expectancy without our input they wouldn't have a problem harvesting matured wood lots. But all they se is that we cut down 200 acres of perfect forest. Ignorance is bliss. 

About the firewood shipping; If you honestly thing that shipping firewood with bugs in it is a good idea I'll drive out to wherever you are to slap you.  There is no way for anyone short of an X-Ray operator and his machine who can tell me they are positive they're wood doesn't contain parasites. And if you bring that stuff into anywhere I cut  , I won't be happy. If by chance someone does, and it infects my wood and my ability to live like I do now, the person responsible will be in a world of hurt. This law should be upheld with the strictest standards by the DEC.


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## ray benson (Jun 12, 2008)

Frequently Asked Questions for Firewood Regulation
Note: DEC Emergency Regulation - Firewood Restrictions to Protect Forests from Invasive Species, June 3, 2008
1. Why is DEC regulating firewood?
- To protect New York's forests and trees, which is our mission.
- New York's rural and urban forests are increasingly threatened by a host of invasive, exotic tree insects and diseases, many of which are unstoppable killers. 
- Over the past 10-15 years, exotic insects like Asian longhorned beetle, emerald ash borer and hemlock wooly adelgid have killed millions of trees in cities and woodlots from Long Island, New York to upper Michigan. 
- Other invasives such as oak wilt, sudden oak death, Sirex wood wasp, brown spruce longhorned beetle are present or of concern. 
- Virtually no native tree species in New York are free from potential attack by one or more invasive exotic insect or disease. 
- Costs to Federal, State and local budgets have exceeded $100 million for eradication efforts, tree removals and disposal and replacement of city street trees. 
- Many invasive tree and forest pests are difficult, to impossible, to detect early enough in their infestation to be able to eliminate them or control their spread. 
- History has shown that many invasive forest pests have been spread long distances, inadvertently assisted by humans, through our movement of plants and wood not known to be infested. 
- Firewood has been shown to be especially troublesome, as it is frequently moved long-distance by campers and others, with new discoveries of invasive pest infestation subsequently showing up in and around campgrounds.
- In order to protect our State's trees and forests, it is essential we attempt to prevent, delay and minimize the introduction of invasive, exotic forest pests, and their spread, by all means possible.
- A direct step we can take is to limit the importation and movement of firewood, a high-risk forest pest host. 
- Many other States (Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin), Federal Agencies (US Forest Service, National Park Service, USDA APHIS), and the Canadian government have already imposed some form of regulations on the importation and movement of firewood to their jurisdictions. 
- We have considered all these approaches, and developed restrictions on the importation and movement of untreated firewood, source-labeling requirements and established treatment standards pursuant to accepted international and scientific protocols that we believe will significantly reduce the risk of introduction and spread of invasive forest pests into and within New York State.
2. What species of firewood are regulated?
All species of trees that are used as firewood are regulated since dangerous, invasive insects and diseases can be found in, or on, almost every native New York tree species. We are focusing on firewood, as the vector, or means by which pests are moved, rather than addressing individual pests one at a time.
3. What pests are you worried about?
There are many invasive, exotic forest insects and diseases of concern to New York. Almost every native New York trees species is susceptible to attack by one or more exotic pest. Some of these insects and diseases are already known to be present in parts of New York, some are threatening us from other states or regions, and still others have yet to find their way to this country (that we know of). Some pests and their hosts of particular concern include:
- Asian lonhorned beetle - maples, birches, ash, sycamore, poplar, willow, elm, hackberry, mountain ash, horsechestnut
- Emerald ash borer - all ash species (white, black, green)
- Sirex woodwasp - pines (Scots, red, white, Austrian, pitch)
- Hemlock wooly adelgid - hemlock
- Asian gypsy moth - over 500 hosts including oak, basswood, birch, poplar, alder, willow, larch, hemlock, pine, and spruce
- Light brown apple moth - apple, oaks, pines, poplars, walnut
- Brown spruce longhorned beetle - spruces
- Oak wilt - oaks, especially red oak
4. What about un-labeled or un-treated firewood already in stores, in warehouses, in distribution centers, or in inventory?
- This is not a "product recall". In order to protect our forests, we are asking consumers and producers to be more aware of where their firewood is coming from, how or if it has been heat-treated to kill pests, and to learn what the risks are from moving un-treated firewood. 
- Our expectation is there will be a period of time (perhaps 1-2 months, or more) when some firewood will continue to be sold that does not meet the new labeling and treatment standards. 
- Our intention is to continue to focus our efforts on increasing awareness and education during this initial period, rather than strict enforcement.
5. What is your definition of "Source" for firewood, in the labeling requirements?
- "Source" is defined as the village, town or city, which the firewood producer declares as the source of the firewood. 
- All trees or logs that are processed into firewood that is declared to be from the named source shall have been grown within 50 miles of the named source, prior to being obtained by the firewood producer.
6. What are you calling "firewood"?
- For the purposes of these regulations, "firewood" is defined to be "any kindling, logs, chunkwood, boards, timbers or other wood of any tree species cut and split, or not split, into a form and size appropriate for use as fuel."
- log-length material is not automatically covered under this regulation, unless it is used to produce firewood (that is, 'cut and split, or not split, into a form and size appropriate for use as fuel")
7. Is the interstate or intra-state movement of "logs" restricted or affected under this firewood regulation.
- Not unless the logs are used to produce firewood, which the producer intends to label as "New York-Sourced".
- Logs destined to be used for lumber, poles, pallets, pulp manufacture or biomass energy are not affected by this firewood regulation. 
- Log movement may, however, be regulated by other existing State or Federal quarantines such as those that address Emerald ash borer, Asian longhorned beetle, gypsy moth and pine shoot beetle. Future quarantines, or expansions of quarantines, may be imposed in response to these or new pests, such as sirex, sudden oak death, or others.
8. Why did you select 50 miles as the sourcing and movement limit for "New York-Sourced Firewood"?
- 50 miles was selected as the source radius because it was felt this was a reasonable distance within which to limit firewood movement, and was consistent with existing local distribution patterns. 
- A 50-mile radius circle, 100 miles in diameter equals 7,854 square miles or 5,026,560 acres. This size area would cover almost the entire Adirondack Park, or all of western New York from Dunkirk to Bath and Lake Erie to the Pennsylvania border. We feel this sourcing and distribution area for firewood producers should be large enough to have minimal impact on New York firewood businesses.
- Firewood is a relatively low-value commodity, and the increasing costs of fuel make trucking beyond 50 miles prohibitive in most cases anyway. 
- Also, our feeling was that any insect pests within a 50-mile radius circle would probably be present across that entire area, but may not be found outside it, as yet. This restriction would help protect other regions of New York State, say the Adirondacks or Catskills, from undetected infestations in western New York or on Long island, for example.
-continued-


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## ray benson (Jun 12, 2008)

9. How do you define or determine 50-miles?
- The 50-mile limit is defined as meaning "a 50-mile linear distance determined by using the scale-bar on a New York State road map, atlas or gazetteer, from the point identified by the producer as the declared and labeled source of the firewood in question." The idea is to use a simple point as the radius center, rather than trying to determine a street address or GPS location for every tree.
10. Is "kiln-drying" an acceptable treatment?
- Kiln-drying can be an acceptable technique to meet the heat treatment standard, provided the specified time and temperature requirements are met during the process, 71 degrees Centigrade (160 degrees Fahrenheit) at the core for 75 minutes. 
- "Kiln-drying" alone, is not a standard, as the practice is not regulated and only has a negotiated meaning between the producer and consumer. Traditionally, kiln drying is used to reduce the moisture content of wood to meet specific end-use requirements, such as furniture production. The process does not necessarily raise the internal temperature of wood in the kiln to a temperature adequate to kill pests, or hold it there long enough to be effective for that goal.
11. Are other States doing this too?
- Many other States and jurisdictions have imposed regulations on the movement and/or importation of firewood, for the same purposes we have in proposing our regulations. Regulations, in various forms, currently exist in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio and Maryland. Last year, Pennsylvania banned the import of any firewood into their state unless it has been "kiln-dried". Other States, including South Dakota, Missouri, West Virginia, New Jersey, Vermont and others are considering similar actions and have outreach and awareness campaigns asking users to not move firewood.
12. What is the Federal government doing?
- USDA APHIS has several different quarantines in place, covering areas of New York as well as other states, that restrict the movement of firewood as well as logs, lumber, wood products and nursery stock of certain tree species as part of various pest quarantines. USDA APHIS' authority to impose quarantine restrictions concerning treatment and movement of firewood (a commodity) are only imposed in direct conjunction with a specific pest species regulatory action. The Department is trying to be proactive and recognize that a wide variety of invasive, exotic forest pests and diseases may be transported to new areas on many different species of wood used as firewood.
- The heat treating standard we are applying for imported firewood is consistent with USDA APHIS Emerald ash borer quarantine standards and international trade standards for firewood and solid wood packaging materials.
13. What about Canada?
- The Canadian government has had a ban in effect for several years on the import of any firewood into that country that has not been heat-treated to their specifications.
14. Isn't this a violation of the Federal Interstate Commerce Clause affecting trade and business between States?
- DEC's Legal Office has looked into the Commerce Clause provisions and determined that case law supports State's rights to protect themselves through regulations that incidentally affect interstate trade if:
a. there is a legitimate public purpose, 
b. the purpose cannot be served as well by available non-discriminatory means,
c. any incidental burden on interstate commerce is not excessive in relation to the local benefits and, 
d. it is applied even-handedly.
See: Maine v. Taylor, 477 U.S. 131, 138 (1986)
15. What's the big deal? What's the risk?
- Firewood has the potential to spread many destructive, invasive, exotic agents, both known and, as yet, unknown. Confirmed threats to New York State include: emerald ash borer, sirex woodwasp), Asian long-horned beetle, European gypsy moth, Asian gypsy moth, and a number of other wood boring or defoliating insects, plus decay and wood-stain fungi, as well as the pathogens that cause Dutch elm disease, oak wilt, and sudden oak death. 
- Firewood product is often stored, unused, for long periods of time, and is handled by persons generally not trained to look for or notice invasive pest signs. Once established in new areas, invasive, exotic forest pests can quickly kill trees in forests, parks, communities and campgrounds. 
-For example, USDA APHIS estimates that over 30 million ash trees have already been killed by the Emerald ash borer in Michigan, alone, with additional millions dead or dying in the Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, West Virginia and Ontario, Canada. In urban settings, this presents liability concerns and may require significant expenditures (in the millions of dollars) for removal of dead trees. It will cost the City of Ann Arbor, Michigan, population 99,000, over $4.3 million dollars to remove over 10,000 dead and dying ash trees (7,500 street trees alone) that pose hazards to residents and property, and expose the city to millions more in liability. Ann Arbor, a community that proudly calls itself "Tree Town", estimates over an additional $2 billion will be needed to restore street trees and their urban forest. The percentage of ash in New York communities and urban forests can be upwards of 20%, as ash trees were often planted to replace American elms that were killed by another invasive exotic pest problem, Dutch elm disease. At this time, infestation of an area by emerald ash borer is essentially a death sentence for all ash, as little has been found to protect trees from lethal attack. 
- In rural areas, impacts may include the loss of entire tree species causing serious ecological impacts. There are an estimated 750 million ash trees in New York State (excluding the Adirondack and Catskill Forest Preserve) and ash constitutes 7% of all trees in our forests. In addition to the ecological losses, landowners and wood-using industries face millions of dollars in current and future economic losses as ash is a valuable specie for lumber, flooring, cabinets, pallets and Major League baseball bats. 
- One of the leading Major League Baseball bat manufacturers, Rawlings Adirondack, is based in Dolgeville, New York. They use native white ash for bats used by professional players and have great concerns over the future of their business and industry.
- Similarly, Asian longhorned beetle, an invasive exotic already found in New York City and on Long Island, could wreak havoc across upstate New York forests and communities as this pest lists most maple species among its preferred hosts. New York's lumber, maple syrup and tourism industries all depend heavily on sugar maple - our State tree - which is at risk.
- The best preventative and mitigation measures for these threats include restriction on importation into the State, movement of firewood within the State, and encouraging use of "local" firewood sources, or, alternatively, verified, "clean" firewood.
- The purpose of this rule is to reduce the risk of introduction and spread of invasive insects and diseases of trees by preventing untreated firewood from entering New York State and restricting the movement, within the State, of firewood that originates in New York State.
16. Why isn't log transport to mills and other wood-using industries also regulated?
- Log transport to wood-using industries is often already regulated by existing Federal quarantines for certain pests such as Asian longhorned beetle, emerald ash borer, gypsy moth or pine shoot beetle.
- In most cases, the manufacturing processes involved - debarking, sawing, kiln-drying, chipping, pulping, etc. - are adequate to eliminate pests should they be carried on the logs
- Logs manufactured into other products typically undergo inspection by persons familiar with insect pests, who would be more likely to recognize these problems should they be found and take appropriate steps to eliminate the source
17. Can I still transport firewood from my own woodlot or camp to my home, or from my home to my own camp or property, for my personal use?
- Transport of firewood from one property poses the same risks, regardless of ownership or whether the firewood is for sale or personal use. Firewood from that dead tree in your yard could carry invasive pests up to your camp, where they could emerge and become established, starting a new infestation killing more trees there. Similarly, firewood from your camp "up north" may harbor pests that could emerge at home and start killing trees in your yard or community.
- Under the regulation, any transport of untreated firewood beyond 50 miles from it's (New York State) source is prohibited. Importation of any untreated firewood from outside New York State is also prohibited.
- Transport of untreated firewood for personal use (not for sale), less than 50-miles from its New York source, is allowed provided the owner/transporter has a "Self-Issued Certificate of Source (100 kb pdf)" declaring where in New York the firewood came from.
- Persons who cut firewood on their own property, for their own use on that same property, are not required to have a "Self-Issued Certificate of Source".
-continued-


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## ray benson (Jun 12, 2008)

18. Is "seasoned" firewood okay?
- Unfortunately, seasoning firewood - storing it cut and piled and letting it air-dry for a period of time - is not a proven way to eliminate potential invasive insects or diseases.
- Seasoning, or air-drying typically only reduces the moisture content of the firewood to around 19% (from 50% or more when fresh-cut or green). Reducing moisture content alone is not an adequate treatment method to control invasive insects and/or diseases.

- Scientific studies have shown that some invasive, exotic insects can survive in untreated, cut trees and firewood for over two years and still emerge to infest surrounding forests
- It's also impossible to determine how long firewood has been "seasoned" as there's no real way to measure or verify
19. What are the penalties for violations?
- Under the Environmental Conservation Law, violations of these regulations are subject to a $250 fine, plus a $100 civil penalty and up to 15 days in jail.
- The real "penalties", however, for failure to comply with these regulations may be far more severe:
a. death of trees in a favorite campground
b. loss of street trees in communities
c. death of a prized old tree in your front yard
d. millions of dollars required to remove infested or dead trees from campgrounds, yards, parks, playgrounds and community streets
e. millions of dollars in liability exposure for public and private property owners from dead and dying trees
f. millions of dollars in unplanned replacement costs to restore urban trees
g. loss of trees and forest habitats that are critical to many species of wildlife, including some rare, threatened and endangered species
h. untold ecological impacts from the loss of entire species (akin to the loss of American chestnut or American elm)
20. Who will be responsible for enforcement?
- Any law enforcement officer could enforce this regulation. This includes NYSDEC Environmental Conservation Officers, NYSDEC Forest Rangers, NYS Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation Park Police, NYS Department of Agriculture and Markets Horticultural Inspectors, and any other State, County or Local police officer.
- Initially, our "enforcement" will continue to focus on outreach and education, to increase producer, dealer and especially consumer awareness of the serious threats to our trees and forests posed by invasive forest insects and the risks of introducing new infestations through the movement of firewood.
21. Are bulk firewood sales covered by this regulation? If so, what are the requirements?
- All firewood sales are covered by this regulation.
- Dealers who sell untreated firewood in bulk quantities are required to provide the purchaser with documentation - a statement on the invoice, bill of sale or lading, or receipt - which identifies the firewood's source (which also must be wholly within New York State.
- Dealers of bulk quantities of firewood labeled "New York Approved Treated Firewood/Pest Free" shall receive, from the firewood producer, the producer's documentation of treatment, in accordance with the requirements. That documentation - a statement to that affect - may be included on a bill of sale or lading, purchase receipt or invoice. A copy of this shall be provided to the consumer.
22. How will customers know the source of firewood they buy?
- Producers will be required to identify the source of their firewood and provide that information to dealers, who will be required to provide it to customers.
- The firewood producer's source certification shall indicate the producer's name, legal address and the village, town or city of the business (the firewood's designated source) on a label, bill of sale or lading, purchase receipt or invoice accompanying such firewood.
23. Is firewood transport through New York to another State regulated?
- No. The regulation specifically exempts out-of-state firewood that is being transported through New York, to another State, and is not sold or used in New York.
24. Are wood pellets, bark or mulch covered under this regulation?
- No. Wood pellets, bark and mulch are not covered under this regulation. The manufacturing processes involved in producing these commodities (chipping, grinding and/or compressing) are deemed adequate to eliminate any invasive pest that may be in or on the wood. In most invasive forest pest quarantine situations, chipping infested, or host material is an accepted disposal method.


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## mantis (Jun 13, 2008)

motoroilmccall said:


> I have to agree. If people actually knew that trees had a life expectancy without our input they wouldn't have a problem harvesting matured wood lots. But all they se is that we cut down 200 acres of perfect forest. Ignorance is bliss.
> 
> About the firewood shipping; If you honestly thing that shipping firewood with bugs in it is a good idea I'll drive out to wherever you are to slap you.  There is no way for anyone short of an X-Ray operator and his machine who can tell me they are positive they're wood doesn't contain parasites. And if you bring that stuff into anywhere I cut  , I won't be happy. If by chance someone does, and it infects my wood and my ability to live like I do now, the person responsible will be in a world of hurt. This law should be upheld with the strictest standards by the DEC.



So by me getting a certificate will stop the infection from spredding?I agree that there is a problem.I will not deny that.But this is a far cry from trying to solve it.This is putting a bandaid on an amputated leg.I think it funny that they start to begin regulations now that heating oil has risen so much.When this has been going on for years.


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## secureland (Jun 13, 2008)

Why aren't they restricting logs? They make firewood too.

Bill


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## mantis (Jun 13, 2008)

secureland said:


> Why aren't they restricting logs? They make firewood too.
> 
> Bill


   Got me


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## ray benson (Jun 23, 2008)

Look at post #49. #16 in that post.


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## Zackman1801 (Jun 23, 2008)

yes but that regulation only pertains it seems to logs that are going to be used for boards or chipped to make paper, it dosent mention anything about a truck load of firewood in tree length, but i would assume that it falls under all of the other regulations of not bringing it everywhere, but technically it dosent say.


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## ray benson (Jun 23, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> yes but that regulation only pertains it seems to logs that are going to be used for boards or chipped to make paper, it dosent mention anything about a truck load of firewood in tree length, but i would assume that it falls under all of the other regulations of not bringing it everywhere, but technically it dosent say.



The magic word is firewood which is mentioned.


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## trax (Jun 24, 2008)

mantis said:


> You are dead on with this statement.How are people going to heat their homes this winter if you cant get firewood.




It's easy to see that Commissioner Grannis (DEC) and His buddy Eliot Spitzer (Well known Greenie & Disgraced Governor) planted these insects and then dumped all there money into oil futures. Is Governor Paterson blind? I can't beleive he dosent see this? The word is Elliot even emptied all the money in his hooker account for this......I'm getting out my tin foil hat and heading to Albany.



,


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