# Covid Whistleblowers About Last Year's Fire Assignments



## slowp (Mar 23, 2021)

The article does say that Covid was taken more seriously on Warshington fires. I've worked on both these forests and am a bit surprised, but everybody I knew is retired. *Not meaning to get into a mask argument. *I do know that a couple of fire folks came back here and tested positive, but one had been exposed to Covid before leaving as it was in his family. 

The Warshington DNR had several small fire camps during our big fires, instead of the usual humongus one. 

Here's the article. 
Whistleblower Article


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## North by Northwest (Mar 23, 2021)

slowp said:


> The article does say that Covid was taken more seriously on Warshington fires. I've worked on both these forests and am a bit surprised, but everybody I knew is retired. *Not meaning to get into a mask argument. *I do know that a couple of fire folks came back here and tested positive, but one had been exposed to Covid before leaving as it was in his family.
> 
> The Warshington DNR had several small fire camps during our big fires, instead of the usual humongus one.
> 
> ...


Masks won't effectively prevent anything in the real world unfortunately , when a large amount of people converge within limited space or less than adequate ventilation in a confined area . Unfortunately many essential workers are being exposed !


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 23, 2021)

Last I checked fire is a lot more deadly than the Covid.


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## North by Northwest (Mar 23, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Last I checked fire is a lot more deadly than the Covid.


That is a rather flipent attitude to have , of course fire is more capable of immediate death than a covid virus . If your Son was working for the fire services , you may have a more sympathetic approach . The basic Health & Safety of employees is imperative . 1st Responders in Urban settings have routine guidelines to follow to prevent transmission of disease to employees or victims during this pandemic . The Fire Services Branch should be no different .


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 23, 2021)

Broken said:


> That is a rather flipent attitude to have , of course fire is more capable of immediate death than a covid virus . If your Son was working for the fire services , you may have a more sympathetic approach . The basic Health & Safety of employees is imperative . 1st Responders in Urban settings have routine guidelines to follow to prevent transmission of disease to employees or victims during this pandemic . The Fire Services Branch should be no different .


Wild land firefighting is an inherently dangerous job. Seems silly that someone who would sign up for that would turn around and cry about protocol for a virus we know isn’t dangerous to young and healthy individuals. That’s my point.


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## North by Northwest (Mar 23, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Wild land firefighting is an inherently dangerous job. Seems silly that someone who would sign up for that would turn around and cry about protocol for a virus we know isn’t dangerous to young and healthy individuals. That’s my point.


Jury's still out on age , unless your speaking juveniles . I had a former teammate of mine in Junior hockey who's son passed this summer at age 32 yrs . He also played University hockey @ Boston . Anyways yeah , I see your point . I suppose the majority of these hotshot crews are in the early to mid 20's .


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## jetsam (Mar 23, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Wild land firefighting is an inherently dangerous job. Seems silly that someone who would sign up for that would turn around and cry about protocol for a virus we know isn’t dangerous to young and healthy individuals. That’s my point.



Tell that to all the dead young and healthy individuals, and the permanently screwed up ones who still have neurological problems a couple years later.

Saying "Firefighting is dangerous, so firefighters should all snort metal shavings because it's not as dangerous as firefighting" might win you points with pro-shavings-snorting special interest groups, but it's terrible advice for actual firefighters.


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## slowp (Mar 23, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Wild land firefighting is an inherently dangerous job. Seems silly that someone who would sign up for that would turn around and cry about protocol for a virus we know isn’t dangerous to young and healthy individuals. That’s my point.


Just curious, have you worked on the firelines on a crew? I have. Not to mention that fire camps are pretty unhealthy without Covid. Folks are horking up black stuff in the morning--always a pleasant sound. The smoke affects your lungs and not in a good way. I quit going because I came home sick with bronchitis half the time and then was unable to work at my day job for a couple of weeks. Then there's poison oak smoke, which thank goodness I never had to deal with it. Firefigting is dangerous, but we try to take as many precautions as possible to make it safer. Our AVERAGE age on the crews I went on the most, was 27, but we were crews that were made up of almost no fire people--we were mostly timber folks.


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## Maintenance supervisor (Mar 23, 2021)

You guys should do sewer work if you think thats dangerous!
Funny ,not really seen as heroic useless its "your" sewer system.


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## North by Northwest (Mar 23, 2021)

Maintenance supervisor said:


> You guys should do sewer work if you think thats dangerous!
> Funny ,not really seen as heroic useless its "your" sewer system.


A real essential and sometimes volatile service lol , and a confined space procedure requirement !


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## slowp (Mar 23, 2021)

Maintenance supervisor said:


> You guys should do sewer work if you think thats dangerous!
> Funny ,not really seen as heroic useless its "your" sewer system.


This is a logging and forestry site, not a "dirty jobs" one. It isn't really a brag about danger thread either. There's enough of that on other forums. 

Was just thinking, crews have to wear Nomex, but it doesn't always prevent you from getting burned, we all are required to wear hard hats in the woods, but if a tree falls on your head, a hard hat is not enough to keep you from getting killed....lots of safety rules that will protect somewhat, but are not 100%. Back in my time, we wore bandanas over our mouths and noses to try to filter the smoke and dust we were inhaling. 

The point is to mitigate/lessen the hazards as much as possible and if it is deemed too hazardous, you leave and get to a safe place, or as our crew did, refuse to go out. For the last bit, you'd better be sure your managers at home will back you up. We knew ours would as one of them was on our crew.


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## Maintenance supervisor (Mar 23, 2021)

Ok , lets really talk facts then , first most employers dont give 2 squirts if you live 5 minutes past the time you retire. Most if not all safety reg.s are litigation resistant, C.Y.A. 
With the world currently full of Karens and Nancys we'll "saftey" our selfs right out of being able to do most jobs so no one gets sued.


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## North by Northwest (Mar 23, 2021)

slowp said:


> This is a logging and forestry site, not a "dirty jobs" one. It isn't really a brag about danger thread either. There's enough of that on other forums.
> 
> Was just thinking, crews have to wear Nomex, but it doesn't always prevent you from getting burned, we all are required to wear hard hats in the woods, but if a tree falls on your head, a hard hat is not enough to keep you from getting killed....lots of safety rules that will protect somewhat, but are not 100%. Back in my time, we wore bandanas over our mouths and noses to try to filter the smoke and dust we were inhaling.
> 
> The point is to mitigate/lessen the hazards as much as possible and if it is deemed too hazardous, you leave and get to a safe place, or as our crew did, refuse to go out. For the last bit, you'd better be sure your managers at home will back you up. We knew ours would as one of them was on our crew.


Definitely not a job for the faint of heart , much like the Coal Mining industry of the last 100 yrs , dirty hot dangerous work . Under appreciated in my mind , they should be given adequate safety measures for themselves and their families sake !


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 24, 2021)

Broken said:


> Jury's still out on age , unless your speaking juveniles . I had a former teammate of mine in Junior hockey who's son passed this summer at age 32 yrs . He also played University hockey @ Boston . Anyways yeah , I see your point . I suppose the majority of these hotshot crews are in the early to mid 20's .


Yeah we know who is susceptible to the virus and who isn’t. It’s unfortunate some of our youth have lost their lives to it but fortunately those cases are few and far between. Sorry to hear about your friends son. 




jetsam said:


> Tell that to all the dead young and healthy individuals, and the permanently screwed up ones who still have neurological problems a couple years later.
> 
> Saying "Firefighting is dangerous, so firefighters should all snort metal shavings because it's not as dangerous as firefighting" might win you points with pro-shavings-snorting special interest groups, but it's terrible advice for actual firefighters.


Please point to where I said they should snort metal shavings. Thanks 


slowp said:


> Just curious, have you worked on the firelines on a crew? I have. Not to mention that fire camps are pretty unhealthy without Covid. Folks are horking up black stuff in the morning--always a pleasant sound. The smoke affects your lungs and not in a good way. I quit going because I came home sick with bronchitis half the time and then was unable to work at my day job for a couple of weeks. Then there's poison oak smoke, which thank goodness I never had to deal with it. Firefigting is dangerous, but we try to take as many precautions as possible to make it safer. Our AVERAGE age on the crews I went on the most, was 27, but we were crews that were made up of almost no fire people--we were mostly timber folks.


Exactly. There’s a lot more dangerous things in that line of work than the Covid. Usually when you hear about whistleblowers in firefighting it’s about procedure and protocol in regards to fighting the fires not a virus. That’s why it’s surprising to see.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Last I checked fire is a lot more deadly than the Covid.





covid deaths in us - Google Search



Pretty sure fire hasn't killed 543,000 people in a little over a year.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Yeah we know who is susceptible to the virus and who isn’t. It’s unfortunate some of our youth have lost their lives to it but fortunately those cases are few and far between. Sorry to hear about your friends son.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Covid is an add on. At the beginning of last year's Warshington fire season, the various agencies came up with a plan on how to mitigate it. They didn't take it lightly. Small fire camps, no lines for meals, keeping crews apart, were some of the ways they came up with to try to keep folks healthy in an environment that is not healthy. Fire camps are good breeding grounds for sickness--more than being out on the line.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> Covid is an add on. At the beginning of last year's Warshington fire season, the various agencies came up with a plan on how to mitigate it. They didn't take it lightly. Small fire camps, no lines for meals, keeping crews apart, were some of the ways they came up with to try to keep folks healthy in an environment that is not healthy. Fire camps are good breeding grounds for sickness--more than being out on the line.


weird how the state that got hit first, had the first covid deaths, the first mask mandate, and general shut down...

Has fewer covid related deaths then many, if not most other states, even with similar population densities. 

I'm "sure" its just a "coincidence"


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## North by Northwest (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Yeah we know who is susceptible to the virus and who isn’t. It’s unfortunate some of our youth have lost their lives to it but fortunately those cases are few and far between. Sorry to hear about your friends son.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks GW , it was a shock , such a healthy young man with no immune or allergy symptoms , go figure !


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## capetrees (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> Just curious, have you worked on the firelines on a crew? I have. Not to mention that fire camps are pretty unhealthy without Covid. Folks are horking up black stuff in the morning--always a pleasant sound. The smoke affects your lungs and not in a good way. I quit going because I came home sick with bronchitis half the time and then was unable to work at my day job for a couple of weeks. Then there's poison oak smoke, which thank goodness I never had to deal with it. Firefigting is dangerous, but we try to take as many precautions as possible to make it safer. Our AVERAGE age on the crews I went on the most, was 27, but we were crews that were made up of almost no fire people--we were mostly timber folks.


Then they died or have lung issues due to the excessive smoke, not the covid.

But of course, the certificate will say "died of covid".


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## Maintenance supervisor (Mar 24, 2021)

Yuo internet and media, thise are the places to "prove" things?


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

I deleted my post because this is supposed to be a thread that is related to fire crews and not the opinions of the armchair experts already spouting off in the off topic forum. This is related to work, fire crews, and whistleblowers getting fired. It is not the off topic forum. If anybody wants to post misinformation, post it there.


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## lone wolf (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> I deleted my post because this is supposed to be a thread that is related to fire crews and not the opinions of the armchair experts already spouting off in the off topic forum. This is related to work, fire crews, and whistleblowers getting fired. It is not the off topic forum. If anybody wants to post misinformation, post it there.


So you dont like free speach? They must do what you say? You own this place?


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 24, 2021)

lone wolf said:


> So you dont like free speach? They must do what you say? You own this place?


That would be what those two guys would have asked... and the answer is yes, they do "own" the place.
The USPS has similar rules in place for it's employees as to posting on social media, speaking to reporters, or even speaking to customers.

But, bottom line, those two didn't seem to be what I'd call team players. better they find employment elsewhere...


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## capetrees (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> I deleted my post because this is supposed to be a thread that is related to fire crews and not the opinions of the armchair experts already spouting off in the off topic forum. This is related to work, fire crews, and whistleblowers getting fired. It is not the off topic forum. If anybody wants to post misinformation, post it there.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> I deleted my post because this is supposed to be a thread that is related to fire crews and not the opinions of the armchair experts already spouting off in the off topic forum. This is related to work, fire crews, and whistleblowers getting fired. It is not the off topic forum. If anybody wants to post misinformation, post it there.


Yeah... perfect description of the guy who got fired: *armchair experts spouting off *who, btw only had a problem with the non-liberal camps: *“If you happen to be from Montana,” he said, “literally nobody even cared about COVID. And if you were in Washington [state], in particular Region 6, I think there was a relatively high level of awareness of COVID.*


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> Covid is an add on. At the beginning of last year's Warshington fire season, the various agencies came up with a plan on how to mitigate it. They didn't take it lightly. Small fire camps, no lines for meals, keeping crews apart, were some of the ways they came up with to try to keep folks healthy in an environment that is not healthy. Fire camps are good breeding grounds for sickness--more than being out on the line.


Oh I’m sure they didn’t mess around when it came to the Covid here 

What are the numbers on Covid hospitalization and/or deaths for Wa state firefighters compared to the rest of the country? That would be a good metric to judge if the measures were warranted or not.


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 24, 2021)

They both deserved to be fired. If you’re going to be anal on Covid protocol then you should be anal about following how to properly report it. Don’t go to social media about it. That’s a No no.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 24, 2021)

Ya all ever notice that a select few generally show up and badger SlowP anytime she posts anything?

Think maybe some of ya all need to grow the **** up.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Oh I’m sure they didn’t mess around when it came to the Covid here
> 
> What are the numbers on Covid hospitalization and/or deaths for Wa state firefighters compared to the rest of the country? That would be a good metric to judge if the measures were warranted or not.


That's cow excrement. If there were few, or no hospitalizations or deaths or positive cases then the precautions would be successful. It is a poor metric to use. And now we are probably going to enter the circle of bull excrement.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> They both deserved to be fired. If you’re going to be anal on Covid protocol then you should be anal about following how to properly report it. Don’t go to social media about it. That’s a No no.


Think about what you just wrote. And, you never have answered my question of, What Is Your Fire Experience. 
What else should they not be anal about? Boots? I mean, boots can get uncomfortable so why bother. Pants? Nomex? Why carry a fire shelter? 

I don't think you have a clue as to what is required and why.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya all ever notice that a select few generally show up and badger SlowP anytime she posts anything?
> 
> Think maybe some of ya all need to grow the **** up.


Gawd, you are right. The trolls and paranoids have arrived en masse. There is no escape. Release the hounds! I know what to do!


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

I shall post....pictures! I have no fire pictures cuz when I went out on crews, we had no idea that digital cameras would exist and I didn't carry a camera cuz of all the dust and the extra weight. 

But I got Logging pics.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)




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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)




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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)




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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)




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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

They gone yet?


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Yeah... perfect description of the guy who got fired: *armchair experts spouting off *who, btw only had a problem with the non-liberal camps: *“If you happen to be from Montana,” he said, “literally nobody even cared about COVID. And if you were in Washington [state], in particular Region 6, I think there was a relatively high level of awareness of COVID.*


You even think about this? Did I not already write about our state had a planning meeting before fire season on how to handle the Covid? And apparently followed their plans? Think about that. Think hard. Thinking can be hard. Really hard so don't overwork yourself or your brain could explode.


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## Woodslasher (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> I shall post....pictures! I have no fire pictures cuz when I went out on crews, we had no idea that digital cameras would exist and I didn't carry a camera cuz of all the dust and the extra weight.
> 
> But I got Logging pics.
> View attachment 896988


I know a couple of ex-wildland firefighters, they tend to be pretty nice folks. Please keep bringing the logging pics, I know I enjoy them and it seems to have quieted the mob.


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> That's cow excrement. If there were few, or no hospitalizations or deaths or positive cases then the precautions would be successful. It is a poor metric to use. And now we are probably going to enter the circle of bull excrement.


What If there are other areas that have the same results but without the protocols? 


slowp said:


> Think about what you just wrote. And, you never have answered my question of, What Is Your Fire Experience.
> What else should they not be anal about? Boots? I mean, boots can get uncomfortable so why bother. Pants? Nomex? Why carry a fire shelter?
> 
> I don't think you have a clue as to what is required and why.


There’s a chain of command to report these issues and it’s not social media. They should know that. Doesn’t mean their grievances aren’t warranted. Just means they dealt with it the wrong way.


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 24, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> covid deaths in us - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure fire hasn't killed 543,000 people in a little over a year.


You are right. Not a whole lot of people die by fire in a year. But there isn’t different levels of fireproof for people. So I don’t think that’s a good comparison.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

Woodslasher said:


> I know a couple of ex-wildland firefighters, they tend to be pretty nice folks. Please keep bringing the logging pics, I know I enjoy them and it seems to have quieted the mob.


We don't and we probably never will know the other side of the story.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> You are right. Not a whole lot of people die by fire in a year. But there isn’t different levels of fireproof for people. So I don’t think that’s a good comparison.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> We don't and we probably never will know the other side of the story.
> View attachment 896998


In other news, someone needs to take you on a log truck ride to get some newer pictures... I'm all for nostalgia, but I also have a pretty good memory so?


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## Woodslasher (Mar 24, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> You are right. Not a whole lot of people die by fire in a year. But there isn’t different levels of fireproof for people. So I don’t think that’s a good comparison.


I'm more fireproof than some people....


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## Woodslasher (Mar 24, 2021)

slowp said:


> We don't and we probably never will know the other side of the story.
> View attachment 896998


It's just a little water Bill, we can make it through no sweat!


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> In other news, someone needs to take you on a log truck ride to get some newer pictures... I'm all for nostalgia, but I also have a pretty good memory so?


That picture needs to be reviewed each year. Saftey, you know. Reading comprehension, and stuff. Like signs that say DETOUR and have arrows pointing to a road that's just a wee bit longer, but drier than the main road.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 25, 2021)

slowp said:


> You even think about this? Did I not already write about our state had a planning meeting before fire season on how to handle the Covid? And apparently followed their plans? Think about that. Think hard. Thinking can be hard. Really hard so don't overwork yourself or your brain could explode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't be so sensitive. The guys screwed up and got what they deserved. 
Whiners shouldn't be allowed to use chainsaws.


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## jetsam (Mar 25, 2021)

slowp said:


> I shall post....pictures! I have no fire pictures cuz when I went out on crews, we had no idea that digital cameras would exist and I didn't carry a camera cuz of all the dust and the extra weight.
> 
> But I got Logging pics.
> View attachment 896988


Isn't that a Dogging pic? 

Love your pupper, wish mine had a useful skill.


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## capetrees (Mar 25, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya all ever notice that a select few generally show up and badger SlowP anytime she posts anything?
> 
> Think maybe some of ya all need to grow the **** up.


maybe she needs to grow a pair then and take the heat by defending her position.


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2021)

capetrees said:


> maybe she needs to grow a pair then and take the heat by defending her position.


 The trolls have returned, I see. Good morning trolls. I don't know how to say that in Norwegian.


Here is a little Kohler yarder. The crew was three guys, 'cept one guy drove the truck when it was time to haul logs to the mill. This was their first yarder adventure and they learned pretty fast for newbies and did OK until they decided to change to occupations with more family friendly hours. I do not like the sound of the Kohler whistle. It is too low pitched and not as happy sounding as the other yarder whistles.


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 25, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


>



There’s no moving the goalposts, you are just wrong.

Catch the Covid and your chances of survival are exponentially better than if you catch fire. If you are young and healthy your chance of dying from Covid drops exponentially. Fire on the other hand doesn’t discriminate


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 25, 2021)

capetrees said:


> maybe she needs to grow a pair then and take the heat by defending her position.


I noticed that she resorts to ad hominem attacks and bigotry quite often. Look at this thread. She wanted to know if I ever worked the fire line so she could dismiss my opinion rather than defend her own. And then you have these Simps that show up to defend her


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> I noticed that she resorts to ad hominem attacks and bigotry quite often. Look at this thread. She wanted to know if I ever worked the fire line so she could dismiss my opinion rather than defend her own. And then you have these Simps that show up to defend her


Well, from your lack of answers, I shall assume that you have never worked on a fire crew and are an immigrant to Warshington from California. I tend to dismiss any armchair experts if they have no experience in activities like fire fighting or forestry. It's another *Unless You Were There, You Don't Understand* things. 

And, to assume if one has "a pair" (of what? Lungs, kidneys, ovaries?) which I assume means that male brain between the legs, but it wasn't specified as such, one is an expert? That's pretty sad.


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## North by Northwest (Mar 25, 2021)

slowp said:


> Well, from your lack of answers, I shall assume that you have never worked on a fire crew and are an immigrant to Warshington from California. I tend to dismiss any armchair experts if they have no experience in activities like fire fighting or forestry. It's another *Unless You Were There, You Don't Understand* things.
> 
> And, to assume if one has "a pair" (of what? Lungs, kidneys, ovaries?) which I assume means that male brain between the legs, but it wasn't specified as such, one is an expert? That's pretty sad.
> 
> View attachment 897054


Immigrant ? perhaps you intended migrate ?


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## capetrees (Mar 25, 2021)

slowp said:


> Well, from your lack of answers, I shall assume that you have never worked on a fire crew and are an immigrant to Warshington from California. I tend to dismiss any armchair experts if they have no experience in activities like fire fighting or forestry. It's another *Unless You Were There, You Don't Understand* things.
> 
> And, to assume if one has "a pair" (of what? Lungs, kidneys, ovaries?) which I assume means that male brain between the legs, but it wasn't specified as such, one is an expert? That's pretty sad.
> 
> View attachment 897054


posts a thread, others disagree with her and make comments relative to what she originally posted and she doesn't like it so she posts pictures of other people working

stomps around like a little girl not getting her way when she wanted to talk about a problem that "nobody" can relate to.

what a joke


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## Driver625 (Mar 25, 2021)

Hey slowp. I have no fire experience and little logging experience so I have nothing to add. Just wanted to say hello and hope you are enjoying retirement. Did you get a new puppy? Can't remember if you did or not. Anyway please keep posting logging pics. Good stuff.


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2021)

The Slightly Used Dog. This dog is an athlete and a bit of a handful. She's a good bike dog and fits better in the little trailer that The Used Dog.


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2021)

Just a push...Not a push me pull me so things weren't too bad for the truck drivers. I think it went to a push me pull me operation later on because I seem to remember a skidder with flames shooting out the exhaust pulling trucks up the road. It wasn't fire season so flames shooting out was merely entertainment.


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 25, 2021)

slowp said:


> Well, from your lack of answers, I shall assume that you have never worked on a fire crew and are an immigrant to Warshington from California. I tend to dismiss any armchair experts if they have no experience in activities like fire fighting or forestry. It's another *Unless You Were There, You Don't Understand* things.
> 
> And, to assume if one has "a pair" (of what? Lungs, kidneys, ovaries?) which I assume means that male brain between the legs, but it wasn't specified as such, one is an expert? That's pretty sad.
> 
> View attachment 897054


You don’t remember do you? I understand now. Enjoy your retirement and keep sharing logging pics. But I have to say if you’re going to put a Barbie next to a Stihl it better be a Bob Mackie. 

Take care


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## northmanlogging (Mar 25, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> There’s no moving the goalposts, you are just wrong.
> 
> Catch the Covid and your chances of survival are exponentially better than if you catch fire. If you are young and healthy your chance of dying from Covid drops exponentially. Fire on the other hand doesn’t discriminate


well, I've been on fire, a lot actually, but fire if it dont kill you just leaves fugly scars maybe some nerve damage in severe cases

Covid on the other hand, isn't like fire at all, you can't see it to avoid it, you don't feel it to flinch away, no smoke so you can't smell it and leave the room. 

it just infects you... quietly, then maybe you get symptoms, maybe you don't, maybe you stay home until you feel better, maybe your an ******* and infect 100 other people because you don't believe in science, and masks make your breath stink. 

Then if you do survive you are now at permanently reduced lung capacity, possible brain damage, maybe one of your kidneys failed and it had to be removed or worse you're on dialysis until you die, or you're on O2 for the rest of your life.

Another interesting statistic BTW the death rate of people on average is around 2% (1000x that of the flu) However, if you do not have access to medical help, i.e. health insurance the death rate is closer to 10%

What some of you are confusing because of incompetent politicians and heavily biased media, is the death rate of infected folks, and death rate of the entire nation regardless of being infected or not. Both numbers are true, so its not lying, its just not being honest.


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## southpaw (Mar 25, 2021)

Maintenance supervisor said:


> Yuo internet and media, thise are the places to "prove" things?


It's a place to listen to different ideas and opinions , how and what you decide on is your thing 
Maybe it opens your eyes to see different , maybe it don't don't 
You do not have to interject with your thoughts and that is ok too , perhaps wise on your part to not do so 
If you don't like what you read you can always just ignore and go about your merry way 
It's just people talking so leave it at that


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## madhatte (Mar 25, 2021)

We just did the RT-130 refresher for the year and unsurprisingly a hot topic was Covid safety and Covid fatigue. I suspect that as the gap closes between vaccination and apathy there are gonna be a few small outbreaks that catch folks by surprise. This is no time to let down our guard.


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## Woodslasher (Mar 26, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> well, I've been on fire, a lot actually, but fire if it don't kill you just leaves fugly scars maybe some nerve damage in severe cases
> 
> Covid on the other hand, isn't like fire at all, you can't see it to avoid it, you don't feel it to flinch away, no smoke so you can't smell it and leave the room.
> 
> ...


Yeah, fire will f you up bad pretty quickly, and far frickin worse than you said. For the severe cases you'll have anywhere from several weeks to over a year of hospitalization initially and months of OT/PT after they release you. You'll need skin grafts and BTM sheets if you don't have enough skin to cover all of your burned areas initially. The donor sites for your skin grafts will be parts of your body that weren't burned, be it your torso or legs, or the soles of your feet in _really_ bad cases. So, you'll be suffering from the equivalent of second degree burns on most of your body that isn't burned to provide skin to cover the parts of you that are burned. Several months out from your initial surgery you'll start needing release surgeries because your grafted skin/scars will start contracting and limiting your mobility and range of motion severely. What they do is they cut slits in your skin and the tension will pull your skin apart and leave an oval-shaped skinless patch where they will stitch or staple a donor chunk of skin in. The OT/PT is needed because when you get burned badly you are unable to walk or move, really, for weeks. When you can walk you'll be quite weak and unstable and you'll tire very, very quickly. Learning how to walk, move your hands, move your fingers, and do simple tasks such as using a fork, picking up a water glass, putting on your clothes, etc, takes awhile. Your muscles will atrophy severely and you'll spend months or years getting back in shape. I went from 130lbs to 95lbs in less than a week and it took me about 10 months to regain my weight and 14 months out I'm still not as strong as I used to be. You'll also be highly sensitive to pain and minor bumps can cause crippling pain, but you'll have lost your ability to feel things you touch with any level of detail. You can also get hyper metabolism, which is where you'll burn through calories quite rapidly even if you aren't doing anything. There's also a high chance for getting PTSD, so your brain is involved as well. I was on fire for about 20-30 seconds and spent 3 months in a hospital recovering from that. In about a week I'm going in for surgery #6 and I'm not even 1.25 years out from when it happened. Getting badly burned isn't quite as "minor" as you made it out to be. No, I've never walked a fire line, but in this case I know what I'm talking about. Covid may suck, but I know people who've had it and had nothing worse than flu like symptoms and I know people who've died from it. I know people who've gotten minor burns and are fine, and I also heard from the paramedics who treated me that I'm the only guy they've seen with 3rd degree burns as bad as I had who's survived. It all depends on the severity, the age, and the initial health of the victim.


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## catbuster (Mar 26, 2021)

COVID has been a topic of discussion on our engine (Type 1 & 6)/hand crew this year as well. We did RT-130 to get ready to burn back in January and it was the first in-person training we had done since last Summer. We had been staying away from the station short of calls for service. I can’t lie, it was nice to see the guys & girls that make up our crew that are returning, but we promptly left until it was time to burn our first parcel, a ~300 acre native grass field. We didn’t spend much time in camps last year, it was nice. I hope the same for this year. Most of us are vaccinated but as new strains show up I’m concerned for my crew. I don’t know how things will look in the future. I hope for a return to normal, but I doubt we’ll get back to “normal” any time soon.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 26, 2021)

Woodslasher said:


> Yeah, fire will f you up bad pretty quickly, and far frickin worse than you said. For the severe cases you'll have anywhere from several weeks to over a year of hospitalization initially and months of OT/PT after they release you. You'll need skin grafts and BTM sheets if you don't have enough skin to cover all of your burned areas initially. The donor sites for your skin grafts will be parts of your body that weren't burned, be it your torso or legs, or the soles of your feet in _really_ bad cases. So, you'll be suffering from the equivalent of second degree burns on most of your body that isn't burned to provide skin to cover the parts of you that are burned. Several months out from your initial surgery you'll start needing release surgeries because your grafted skin/scars will start contracting and limiting your mobility and range of motion severely. What they do is they cut slits in your skin and the tension will pull your skin apart and leave an oval-shaped skinless patch where they will stitch or staple a donor chunk of skin in. The OT/PT is needed because when you get burned badly you are unable to walk or move, really, for weeks. When you can walk you'll be quite weak and unstable and you'll tire very, very quickly. Learning how to walk, move your hands, move your fingers, and do simple tasks such as using a fork, picking up a water glass, putting on your clothes, etc, takes awhile. Your muscles will atrophy severely and you'll spend months or years getting back in shape. I went from 130lbs to 95lbs in less than a week and it took me about 10 months to regain my weight and 14 months out I'm still not as strong as I used to be. You'll also be highly sensitive to pain and minor bumps can cause crippling pain, but you'll have lost your ability to feel things you touch with any level of detail. You can also get hyper metabolism, which is where you'll burn through calories quite rapidly even if you aren't doing anything. There's also a high chance for getting PTSD, so your brain is involved as well. I was on fire for about 20-30 seconds and spent 3 months in a hospital recovering from that. In about a week I'm going in for surgery #6 and I'm not even 1.25 years out from when it happened. Getting badly burned isn't quite as "minor" as you made it out to be. No, I've never walked a fire line, but in this case I know what I'm talking about. Covid may suck, but I know people who've had it and had nothing worse than flu like symptoms and I know people who've died from it. I know people who've gotten minor burns and are fine, and I also heard from the paramedics who treated me that I'm the only guy they've seen with 3rd degree burns as bad as I had who's survived. It all depends on the severity, the age, and the initial health of the victim.


Ok I may of downplayed it a little bit, but the point is, fire and burns you can see coming (which is the really sucky part) so if you can you can avoid. 

but the real important thing is, you can't give your burn to someone else by walking though the local walmerch


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## madhatte (Mar 26, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> In other news, someone needs to take you on a log truck ride to get some newer pictures... I'm all for nostalgia, but I also have a pretty good memory so?


TAG you're it!


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## madhatte (Mar 26, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Don't be so sensitive. The guys screwed up and got what they deserved.
> Whiners shouldn't be allowed to use chainsaws.


You, uh, ever work for a government agency? In a leadership position? On any kind of emergency incident? You'll find that there has emerged over the last 20-some years a very welcome culture of accountability, both experienced and documented, that REQUIRES whistleblowing when procedures and protocols are violated. If CDC says "jump", USFS is obligated to say "how high?" This is not a matter of politics but of operational continuity. USFS is in error here, not the Technicians who have been cast aside for their service. I say this both as an Incident Commander (only ICT4, but) and as a Technician. I expect the same accountability of both myself and my coworkers. We are absolutely responsible for each others' safety, and COVID-19 is as deadly a threat as it is an unfamiliar one. Do not minimize this issue on an incident where I am in command. I will send you away to be ignorant in your own company. This is my obligation to my crew and their safety.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 26, 2021)

madhatte said:


> You, uh, ever work for a government agency? In a leadership position? On any kind of emergency incident? You'll find that there has emerged over the last 20-some years a very welcome culture of accountability, both experienced and documented, that REQUIRES whistleblowing when procedures and protocols are violated. If CDC says "jump", USFS is obligated to say "how high?" This is not a matter of politics but of operational continuity. USFS is in error here, not the Technicians who have been cast aside for their service. I say this both as an Incident Commander (only ICT4, but) and as a Technician. I expect the same accountability of both myself and my coworkers. We are absolutely responsible for each others' safety, and COVID-19 is as deadly a threat as it is an unfamiliar one. Do not minimize this issue on an incident where I am in command. I will send you away to be ignorant in your own company. This is my obligation to my crew and their safety.


Um, yes, I work for a government agency and I am well aware of the rules and regs.
There are proper channels for "whistleblowing" (snitching, tattletailing, etc...) and spouting off on facebook isn't one of them.
Idk what was or wasn't being done regarding covid in this situation, but obviously, from the information stated in the article, actual quotes of those involved, there is plenty of politics involved, at the local level and higher up the chain of command. There always is.

Btw, you being a commander and technician, like those who were reprimanded, and me not being either, I think it's fair to say of the two of us, I would have more of an unbiased opinion on this particular case.
Oh, and they weren't "cast aside for their service." They were reprimanded for failure to follow procedure.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

I'll have to read it again, after coffee, but I seem to recall that both tried to go through "channels" and were ignored. That happens. I had that happen twice on fires and the only way we got change was to take a different approach. 

In Oregon during a lightning bust, we were sent to a fire in the middle east of the state. It was a crew of folks that were mostly timber beasties. We'd worked together, knew each other and pretty much trusted each other because we'd been on some hairy slash burns together. Camp was in place and I think a Type 2 or 3 overhead team in place. Camp was in a meadow, with bug killed Lodgepole pine scattered about. We set up a tarp and then were helicoptered out and put in a 30 hour shift. There were so many fires and not enough crews at that time (sound familiar?) We came back in after having one minor insurrection--the bus was not going to stop to pick up another tired crew and they'd be waiting a while so we yelled and got them squished onto our bus. 

We got in and the overhead team had changed to one up level. We were going to go on night shift so needed to sleep. The new team was concerned, and rightly so, about all the snags in camp so we woke up to the sound of saws and trees falling around us. Some trees were falling close to our sleeping area. We couldn't sleep. We came up with the idea that they could fall the trees during shift change and that way the night shift could get sleep. We talked to the folks in incident command. They ignored us and one told us we were the problem. 

We were a tight crew, and we had backup back home. Our sawyer started cursing, grabbed his saw, which was a large one because we were from Western Warshington, and went over to the plans tent. He started the saw, revved it up and was bellowing and cussing asking them if they could sleep with that noise. Security was called and he was marched back and told to pack up. The security grimly announced, "He is being sent home." At that point, without any planning we all just said we would be going with him. We'd been out almost two weeks anyway. The security guy was speechless. He disappeared. He reappeared with one of the overhead honchos, who was red in the face and yelling at us about our crew being a problem. BUT, they decided to LET us stay on the fire. They would still cut down snags but at shift change (mentioned as if it was their original thought) and things would be safer. We stayed for the rest of the three weeks and were not reprimanded when we returned home, labeled That Problem Crew. 

That might not have occurred if we'd not been a mixed crew, with over half of us having "permanent" status and a good team of people back home. Our Fire Management Officer protested sending us off Forest because "It's dry here and our trees are more valuable than dead eastside trees." The home budget was flush and we would be making extra money by patrolling on weekends and sleeping in our own beds so money wasn't an issue. 

Another incident took place a few years earlier, and I took part in a sit down "strik protesting shower hours for women. The hours were convenient if you worked in camp, but not for those of us on a crew. We got the hours changed, but not by going through the channels, which was tried prior to the little protest. 

You have to look out for yourself and sometimes take means that are outside of official channels if the bigwigs are being ignorant. It isn't snitching, or telling, it's a serious safety issue brought to light, and yes, I consider showers, and food to be safety matters. 


Folks in charge often have tunnel vision and think only of their goals. 

Oh, and the big one on the fire vs covid discussion is you can go home burned and your family and friends are not going to get burned if they are around you. It isn't contagious. It is just as serious, but you aren't going to get others sick. Pretty simple, that.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

madhatte said:


> TAG you're it!


No thank you. Log trucks have too many Donettos on the dashboard, and uncomfy passenger seats.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

Hmmm. That sounds like a good song title, Donettos on the Dashboard.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

catbuster said:


> COVID has been a topic of discussion on our engine (Type 1 & 6)/hand crew this year as well. We did RT-130 to get ready to burn back in January and it was the first in-person training we had done since last Summer. We had been staying away from the station short of calls for service. I can’t lie, it was nice to see the guys & girls that make up our crew that are returning, but we promptly left until it was time to burn our first parcel, a ~300 acre native grass field. We didn’t spend much time in camps last year, it was nice. I hope the same for this year. Most of us are vaccinated but as new strains show up I’m concerned for my crew. I don’t know how things will look in the future. I hope for a return to normal, but I doubt we’ll get back to “normal” any time soon.


I was amazed at how small the local camp was during the fires last year. Apparently there were several scattered about, miles apart to try to keep folks safe. That may have added to the resource shortage as more toilets, showers, etc. would be scattered about. 

Saw the camp because I walk the Demon Dog around the Stampede Grounds sometimes. That park is huge and most likely would have been crowded with tents if it weren't for Covid.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 26, 2021)

slowp said:


> No thank you. Log trucks have too many Donettos on the dashboard, and uncomfy passenger seats.


you'd have to share space with my truck saw, tool box, O.S. box. and some assorted spare parts... Maybe if he' up to it, the super puupper, (he's all for log truck rides, but he drools, farts and is scared to get out of the truck)

And the passenger window does not roll down currently.

but it would be fun?


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## northmanlogging (Mar 26, 2021)

not to mention hard hats, rain gear, a bale of new gloves, and whats left of half a bale of greasy gloves and a spare set a calks


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> you'd have to share space with my truck saw, tool box, O.S. box. and some assorted spare parts... Maybe if he' up to it, the super puupper, (he's all for log truck rides, but he drools, farts and is scared to get out of the truck)
> 
> And the passenger window does not roll down currently.
> 
> but it would be fun?


Sounds like a blast. The only log truck ride I got was a short one. I had gotten my pickup really stuck in snow, and had no radio (it was a day when they took them out for maintenance) and was told the road was plowed, which it was until it wasn't. No turnaround. I flagged down the last truck of the day and HE DID HAVE DONUTS ON THE DASHBOARD. It was very bumpy.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> not to mention hard hats, rain gear, a bale of new gloves, and whats left of half a bale of greasy gloves and a spare set a calks


I understand. Survival gear.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 26, 2021)

slowp said:


> I'll have to read it again, after coffee, but I seem to recall that both tried to go through "channels" and were ignored. That happens. I had that happen twice on fires and the only way we got change was to take a different approach.
> 
> In Oregon during a lightning bust, we were sent to a fire in the middle east of the state. It was a crew of folks that were mostly timber beasties. We'd worked together, knew each other and pretty much trusted each other because we'd been on some hairy slash burns together. Camp was in place and I think a Type 2 or 3 overhead team in place. Camp was in a meadow, with bug killed Lodgepole pine scattered about. We set up a tarp and then were helicoptered out and put in a 30 hour shift. There were so many fires and not enough crews at that time (sound familiar?) We came back in after having one minor insurrection--the bus was not going to stop to pick up another tired crew and they'd be waiting a while so we yelled and got them squished onto our bus.
> 
> ...


Can't argue with any of that. Maybe these two guys would have had better results if they had protested in some other way besides on Facebook.
I'll think of you next time I'm having a bad day at the post office.


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## madhatte (Mar 26, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Btw, you being a commander and technician, like those who were reprimanded, and me not being either, I think it's fair to say of the two of us, I would have more of an unbiased opinion on this particular case.
> Oh, and they weren't "cast aside for their service." They were reprimanded for failure to follow procedure.


The current version of the Incident Commander's Handbook devotes much of its first chapter to the tenets of a High-Quality Organization. Much of that revolves around the need to question authority when it's wrong, and how to refuse illegal orders. This is very much procedure.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 26, 2021)

madhatte said:


> The current version of the Incident Commander's Handbook devotes much of its first chapter to the tenets of a High-Quality Organization. Much of that revolves around the need to question authority when it's wrong, and how to refuse illegal orders. This is very much procedure.


Could you post a link to an online version of that handbook? I'd like to read it.
I found these two docs., but I don't think they are what you mentioned


https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd644053.pdf





https://www.nifc.gov/nicc/logistics/references/Wildland%20Fire%20Incident%20Management%20Field%20Guide.pdf



Maybe one of these?


Forest Service Directives


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## Goinwheelin (Mar 26, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> well, I've been on fire, a lot actually, but fire if it dont kill you just leaves fugly scars maybe some nerve damage in severe cases
> 
> Covid on the other hand, isn't like fire at all, you can't see it to avoid it, you don't feel it to flinch away, no smoke so you can't smell it and leave the room.
> 
> ...


I hear ya, but I would rather catch Covid than catch fire. Lol. 
With that said, I am talking about wild land firefighters not the entire country. If you look at that demographic by age and health then compare it to the Covid data for that range you will find there are a hell of a lot more things they are more likely to die from than the Covid. That’s my point. If you are under 20 your chances of dying from Covid are statistically zero and the chance doesn’t start to really climb until you get into the 60+ range. The title of the article @slowp shared is misleading click bait. They try to make you think they got fired for whistleblowing but really they got canned because they went about it wrong. Do they have a legitimate gripe? Probably. Did they go about reporting it correctly? No.


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## madhatte (Mar 26, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Could you post a link to an online version of that handbook? I'd like to read it.
> I found these two docs., but I don't think they are what you mentioned
> 
> 
> ...


The second one is it. First two pages are what you're after.


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

I wouldn't call it click bait. Covid, and how it would affect fire fighting was an issue from the get go. The safety first (except if it is too expensive or affects production) ethics of some supervisors is not a new issue. Those folks have always been around and will always be. 

I reread the article. The AZ guy did try to go through channels but was ignored. Sounds like he might even have everything documented. The CA guy sounds like he might have tried, but perhaps not hard enough, and not in writing to try to get change to occur. 

Read on down and there is a link to an item about trying to obtain the number of Covid cases on fire crews and numbers hospitalized and or dead. They've filed a FOIA request. It also sounds like senators are now involved. Priorities do a quick change when a request for info from a senator arrives. 

From the way the FS works, I would expect an out of court settlement of some kind. That is cheaper than going to court and fighting.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 26, 2021)

slowp said:


> I wouldn't call it click bait. Covid, and how it would affect fire fighting was an issue from the get go. The safety first (except if it is too expensive or affects production) ethics of some supervisors is not a new issue. Those folks have always been around and will always be.
> 
> I reread the article. The AZ guy did try to go through channels but was ignored. Sounds like he might even have everything documented. The CA guy sounds like he might have tried, but perhaps not hard enough, and not in writing to try to get change to occur.
> 
> ...


Your "management" sounds a lot like mine. Do you guys have a union?

...and what is that in the picture and what are they doing??


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## slowp (Mar 26, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Your "management" sounds a lot like mine. Do you guys have a union?
> 
> ...and what is that in the picture and what are they doing??


I did not mean to insinuate that all supervisors are that way. There are more good than bad. 

The photo shows a yarder, that has been "walked" on a paved forest road. Tires had to be thrown in front of the tracks and the crew is pulling out lines to rig up the yarder. That was a busy forest road and it was a challenge to log off of.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 26, 2021)

madhatte said:


> The second one is it. First two pages are what you're after.


Well, that was enlightening.
Sounds like Mr. Gold was doing what he was trained to do, according to that handbook, with the exception being, the handbook relates to hazards related directly to firefighting, which seems to be universally agreed upon, and he attempted to apply them to the covid, which is pretty much a nebulous (and very political) topic.
I see a lot of similarities to your outfit and the USPS - handbooks, manuals, talks, articles, posters, etc everything and anything you could want to know about has been written in some form or fashion - the only trouble is they are all, for the most part, subject to interpretation and answers will vary based on who you ask. The postmaster in one office has one set of rules and another office has different rules. Sounds like you guys have the same issue.
The smart thing to do, is "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Here's the bottom line though:
“As a public servant you are held to a high standard and your actions are to be above reproach. Your misconduct is unbecoming of a federal employee and has reflected negatively on the Forest Service.”


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## northmanlogging (Mar 27, 2021)

slowp said:


> I wouldn't call it click bait. Covid, and how it would affect fire fighting was an issue from the get go. The safety first (except if it is too expensive or affects production) ethics of some supervisors is not a new issue. Those folks have always been around and will always be.
> 
> I reread the article. The AZ guy did try to go through channels but was ignored. Sounds like he might even have everything documented. The CA guy sounds like he might have tried, but perhaps not hard enough, and not in writing to try to get change to occur.
> 
> ...


This looks like a lot of long angry days. The amount of S that could go wrong on a job like this would have me up nights for months prior to starting, and then zero sleep while actually working.


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## madhatte (Mar 27, 2021)

slowp said:


> From the way the FS works, I would expect an out of court settlement of some kind. That is cheaper than going to court and fighting.


Gotta save that court money for timber sale litigation. 


TNTreeHugger said:


> Your "management" sounds a lot like mine. Do you guys have a union?


We do, AFGE. Toothless. Mostly useful for making sure the next guy doesn't get a better deal. They have been a disappointment. We can do better but not with that particular union. 


TNTreeHugger said:


> Well, that was enlightening.
> Sounds like Mr. Gold was doing what he was trained to do, according to that handbook, with the exception being, the handbook relates to hazards related directly to firefighting, which seems to be universally agreed upon, and he attempted to apply them to the covid, which is pretty much a nebulous (and very political) topic.


As Slowp noted, we rolled into the season expecting challenges. Some of them were pretty easy -- spread out during morning briefings and AAR's etc -- and then stories like this one come up. Leadership was not well equipped to handle COVID concerns, and there was not consistent messaging from district to district, much less agency to agency. Hell, my agency was straight up declaring baselessly that we were an "island of safety" in an attempt to head off panic but had the opposite effect of making it very difficult to enforce precautionary rules. 


northmanlogging said:


> This looks like a lot of long angry days.


I got two words for you: Gub Mint


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## catbuster (Mar 27, 2021)

Never got a shot at a log truck ride. If they’re anything like my lowboy tractor, and I’d guess they come from factory similar as heavy spec tractors, the passenger seat isn’t comfortable and it probably rides terribly when unloaded. The life the truck lives after it leaves the dealer is largely up to the owner & operator. I can safely say I do not have Donettes in my trucks. That high lead job looks like fun. I’d do it just for kicks, it’s good to be challenged every once in a while.

Like I said, our fire crew spent most of last year away from the station except to check equipment and make calls. That’s the upshot of our organization as we’re locally based but have the quals to go work on almost any scale operation in the United States. Unfortunately not every agency has the same organizational structure and flexibility. Back in the day when I was a very young engineer I spent two years with a state agency and they’ve not been nearly as effective to respond to COVID as local agencies in this area.

Federal agencies have to do better. I see GS-3s starting out working the line and getting paid $11.49 an hour and wonder why I’d ever consider getting into it as a federal employee now. That’s less than an intern gets paid at KYTC to do “construction inspection.” It’s an embarrassment, but that’s another discussion for... Maybe some time.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2021)

When I started out, on a tree planting crew, I was happy. It was about the same effort as my previous work in orchards, and it paid more than minimum wage. I think it paid a whole seventy five cents more and then there were no pears to pick to make less than minimum wage. Our forestry program made a deal where we planted on weekends. We usually had a nice view, etc. That was "the foot in the door." 

I didn't go on fires right away. The first season I was told, "We had to hire you. You won't be able to do the work and we won't have to hire women again after this year." Yup. I, and pretty much every other woman on a non office/non lookout job were affirmative action and the FS had been forced to hire us. The men went to fire training, we did not. Two years later, I went to fire school and started going on district fires and then off district a couple years later and so on. I kept on working in timber as my day job. Sometimes, even gubmint has to have a hard kick in the pants.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 27, 2021)

slowp said:


> When I started out, on a tree planting crew, I was happy. It was about the same effort as my previous work in orchards, and it paid more than minimum wage. I think it paid a whole seventy five cents more and then there were no pears to pick to make less than minimum wage. Our forestry program made a deal where we planted on weekends. We usually had a nice view, etc. That was "the foot in the door."
> 
> I didn't go on fires right away. The first season I was told, "We had to hire you. You won't be able to do the work and we won't have to hire women again after this year." Yup. I, and pretty much every other woman on a non office/non lookout job were affirmative action and the FS had been forced to hire us. The men went to fire training, we did not. Two years later, I went to fire school and started going on district fires and then off district a couple years later and so on. I kept on working in timber as my day job. Sometimes, even gubmint has to have a hard kick in the pants.


I gotta wonder if its reverse psychology, causing those hired by affirmative action to step it up a notch or 3, or is it making the employers have lower expectations? We may never know...

Either way, the hiring practices way back when were stupid.


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> I gotta wonder if its reverse psychology, causing those hired by affirmative action to step it up a notch or 3, or is it making the employers have lower expectations? We may never know...
> 
> Either way, the hiring practices way back when were stupid.


All I know is that it was equal to or less physical than orchard and farm work, and the pay was better, along with the hours. 

Get this. It is 1995 and I'm at a timber cruising meeting. Overheard a guy say to another guy that women could not work in sale admin. because they don't talk or know about sports. Poor guy. Apparently he didn't realize that understanding contracts and logging system needs might could be a bit more important than How About Those Seahawks. 

Was happy at a non FS trail volunteer session for chainsaws to see young women there, and also that some were fallers, and had learned from their dads who were production fallers. It's changed, but slowly, and still has a bit to go.


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## TBS (Mar 27, 2021)

Rios went about it the wrong way by posting everyones work phone numbers and emails, he didn't follow protocol so they removed his automatic rehire option away which means he had to reapply and go through the hiring process again and having a strike against you the prior season gives them a reason to not rehire you.

Gold posted his concerns on facebook after not hearing anything from higher ups and requesting a meeting got what is known as a reprisal and supposed to be protected from that by federal whistleblower laws.


Now for my observation and experiences. The creek fire had I think 14 base camps at one point. Protocols were followed pretty well in the camps from what I saw and we had people from everywhere. Only a minimal numbers of cases with covid like symptoms and cases the usual camp crud that goes around where pretty low. Covid and camp crud have similar protocols that are easy to follow.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident%3FDocumentKey%3D12cd8ac6-4285-44cb-8b9e-a8e917c39eb8&ved=2ahUKEwiSo6is_dDvAhUJP30KHWMQCOYQFjACegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0aVnZzVpZr214Ju12Doz18&cshid=1616865681620







__





COVID-19 Prevention and Management During Wildland Fire Operations | NWCG







www.nwcg.gov





I came home from a fire in 2005 with what ever crap started going through the camp in the 5th day of the incident and when I got home gave it to the rest of the family even though I wasn't sick and most of my crew got sick.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 27, 2021)

slowp said:


> All I know is that it was equal to or less physical than orchard and farm work, and the pay was better, along with the hours.
> 
> Get this. It is 1995 and I'm at a timber cruising meeting. Overheard a guy say to another guy that women could not work in sale admin. because they don't talk or know about sports. Poor guy. Apparently he didn't realize that understanding contracts and logging system needs might could be a bit more important than How About Those Seahawks.
> 
> Was happy at a non FS trail volunteer session for chainsaws to see young women there, and also that some were fallers, and had learned from their dads who were production fallers. It's changed, but slowly, and still has a bit to go.


I've mentioned it before, my mom taught me to run a saw, drive, weld, as well as cook and sew. she drove water truck, dump truck and long haul, pipe line welder and many other hats

dad wasnt a reliable option, until I was already in my teens, but dad (the only one that deserves the title) taught me how to wrench.


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 27, 2021)

slowp said:


> When I started out, on a tree planting crew, I was happy. It was about the same effort as my previous work in orchards, and it paid more than minimum wage. I think it paid a whole seventy five cents more and then there were no pears to pick to make less than minimum wage. Our forestry program made a deal where we planted on weekends. We usually had a nice view, etc. That was "the foot in the door."
> 
> I didn't go on fires right away. The first season I was told, "We had to hire you. You won't be able to do the work and we won't have to hire women again after this year." Yup. I, and pretty much every other woman on a non office/non lookout job were affirmative action and the FS had been forced to hire us. The men went to fire training, we did not. Two years later, I went to fire school and started going on district fires and then off district a couple years later and so on. I kept on working in timber as my day job. Sometimes, even gubmint has to have a hard kick in the pants.


And they had the gall to actually tell you that. I would have busted ass even if it killed me, just to prove them wrong.


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## lone wolf (Mar 27, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> And they had the gall to actually tell you that. I would have busted ass even if it killed me, just to prove them wrong.


Woman make good helpers they tend to argue less and work more ,correct me if I'm wrong?


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## TNTreeHugger (Mar 27, 2021)

lone wolf said:


> Woman make good helpers they tend to argue less and work more ,correct me if I'm wrong?


Idk about that in the forestry industry.... I'll let the others comment on that one.
Generally speaking, there are too many variables to generalize.


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## lone wolf (Mar 27, 2021)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Idk about that in the forestry industry.... I'll let the others comment on that one.
> Generally speaking, there are too many variables to generalize.


That's been my experience.


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## 2dogs (Mar 27, 2021)

madhatte said:


> Gotta save that court money for timber sale litigation.
> 
> We do, AFGE. Toothless. Mostly useful for making sure the next guy doesn't get a better deal. They have been a disappointment. We can do better but not with that particular union.
> 
> ...


Nate there is a pretty cool patch available with a Black Swan with 2020 added in the center. I think it is good representation of last year.


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## madhatte (Mar 28, 2021)

I've been working my entire career in "male dominated" industries and OOHH NOOO there have always been women in the workplace and SHOCK they have always pulled their weight. This is only an issue to backwards idiots who want to keep women down.


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## slowp (Mar 28, 2021)

Nate, it's a massive improvement compared to what it was. I've seen it evolve. There are still jerks out there, but now we know who to go to (channels) if there are not enough showers for the amount of women on a fire (example). 

Another problem encountered due to fires. This log would be a nice one to sit on for a snack, but only if you have black pants on. I stopped here for a snack and butt rest so didn't want to sit. Foolishly rode 44 miles yesterday. Even with an E-bike, that's a lot of miles when you haven't worked up to it. I find snacking spots and restrooms to be scarce in this area. We need bigger trees for the latter!!! And fewer fences.


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## madhatte (Mar 28, 2021)

And thus the More Snacking Spots caucus was formed


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## catbuster (Mar 28, 2021)

madhatte said:


> And thus the More Snacking Spots caucus was formed


Consider this Kentucky not-so-redneck as part of it to give it some coast-to-coast credibility.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 30, 2021)

catbuster said:


> Federal agencies have to do better. I see GS-3s starting out working the line and getting paid $11.49 an hour and wonder why I’d ever consider getting into it as a federal employee now. That’s less than an intern gets paid at KYTC to do “construction inspection.” It’s an embarrassment, but that’s another discussion for... Maybe some time.



In 1994, I was a GS-04 working for Bureau of Land Management and I was a qualified helicopter manager. I was making $8.12/hr to manage million-dollar aircraft, sometimes two or three at once. Whoulda thunk?

Interesting factoid, when I started in fire, at chow line there was a big plastic tub full of silverware - we all put our grubby, dirty, greasy hands in it and fished out what we wanted. There weren't any hand-washing stations on the way into chow either.

From my observations, camp crud didn't really spread any worse back then than it does now, but we've come a long way. I can't speak to the COVID19 response protocols in fire because I don't work in fire anymore, but from what I've heard, teams
generally did a pretty good job.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 30, 2021)

As far as women working in fire, in 1995, I worked alongside a squaddie on Redmond Hotshots. She could do 200 push-ups without stopping and ran the mile-and-a-half in 7:14. There were only a couple guys that keep up with her.

I also worked with a Grangeville Jumper that had the rookie best time in 1996 on the jumper pack-out (110 pounds, 3 miles, in 90 minutes or less). I'll bet she was less than 7% bodyfat that year.


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## Woodslasher (Mar 30, 2021)

Jacob J. said:


> As far as women working in fire, in 1995, I worked alongside a squaddie on Redmond Hotshots. She could do 200 push-ups without stopping and ran the mile-and-a-half in 7:14. There were only a couple guys that keep up with her.
> 
> I also worked with a Grangeville Jumper that had the rookie best time in 1996 on the jumper pack-out (110 pounds, 3 miles, in 90 minutes or less). I'll bet she was less than 7% bodyfat that year.


Yeah, I know a woman who was a hotshot a few jobs back and I'll bet she could mop the floor with me if I tried to pick a fight with her.


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## slowp (Mar 31, 2021)

I ran into a guy I'd worked with a few years ago. He told me a well kept secret. 

In 1981, I was a permanent part time timber crew person. I got a phone call in February that I could come back to work and work on a precommercial thinning crew. It was a small crew made up of a couple of full time timber guys and a couple of non timber but funding in their depts. was short so they had to work in timber, guys. I showed up. I guess that was shock number 1 for them. 

I wondered a bit when all that happened on the first day was that I was given a chainsaw to use, a pair of chaps, ear plugs and safety glasses ( I had a hardhat already) and told not to hurt myself and what species to favor. It was a rough day. Thank goodness I had learned to start a saw in Forestry school and had cut some firewood with my dad's little saw. Otherwise, I knew nothing about cutting trees. I noticed some odd looks at the end of the day. I bought some whisky on my way home because I was so sore and had a drink. This lasted for the first week. I was soooo sore. Things improved drastically. I needed no more alcohol muscle relaxant when I got home, and I was keeping up with the guys. I finished out the season. 

I ran into the Junior Forester that I had worked with--the one who handed me the saw and said don't get hurt, a couple years before I retired, as did he. He said he owed me an apology. He followed up by saying that the guys had a bet--a how long will she last pool. That's why there was no help or "training" the first week because they had money bet on how long I would last. He said nobody won and it was a major surprise to them. They had all kept this quiet for years. 

I actually kind of enjoyed dumping lodgepole pine. Oh well, after that year, a certain president decided that all such work would be contracted out, and that was the end.


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## old CB (Mar 31, 2021)

Yep, my current work assistant is female. Lauren is the toughest 120 lbs you'll ever meet. On a neighborhood/volunteer tree removal work day that I led, I saw her dragging an entire ponderosa tree down a hill, and thought "Yeah, she'll do." I think it's four years now that she's been working with me. It helps that her other gig is teaching rock climbing, so she knows rope, safety matters, and how to stay in shape.

The daughter of a friend also worked with me briefly a few years back, a very capable young woman. She went on to summer gigs on a hotshot crew. After which she worked with me one day when I was short on help. While stopped for lunch I asked about her fire crew work: "Do you get any crap for being female?" I knew the answer before she said it, but of course she did. I told her, every crew has its aszhole(s).


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