# MS441 R C-M M-Tronic Review and Mods



## blsnelling

Tonight I picked up a Stihl MS441 R C-M with the M-Tronic carb on it. I bought the R, or wrap, model to get the high output oiler, dual big dawgs, roller chain catcher, and stiffer AV springs. This saw will be getting ported probably sooner than later, but wanted to see how it ran stock. I'm making no attempt at scientific testing, so take the vids for what they're worth. You'll want to watch the whold vid, as I make comments along the way to help explain what the saw feels like.

Over all, it's a very nice saw. It's very well balanced with the 28" Light bar I have on it. It does not feel loose at all, so those of you that don't like loosey goosey springs, you'll like this one.

I have mixed feelings about it's performance. I have to admit that I'm not a good judge of stock saws. None of my saws are stock long at all, so I have to keep that in perspective when I do run a stock saw. Never the less, I still think I'm overly critical of such. With that said, the saw seems to "hunt" for RPMs if there's any variation in load. It almost feels like the saw shifts gears up and down, hunting for the sweet spot. This made it very difficult to get it to settle down if you dogged it in to put a good load on it. You'll see what I mean in the vid. A standard carbed saw seems much smoother. Again, this is only a first tank opinion. Don't put too much stock in it yet. 

The very first cuts I made I was quite disappointed. But, by the time I had a full tank through it, I noticed a significant difference. It seemed like a bigger difference than most other saws in just one tank. I think you will be able to see the difference when I return to the smaller test log at the end of the vid.

Another thing to note is how it takes a second to idle down after coming off the throttle. This is not an issue at all, just different.

I'm trying to be very open minded about this saws performance. I think it's more "different" than it is negative. It will just take a little getting used to. Let the saw do it's thing and it runs great. It will take more time behind it though to really tell. I think it'll be even less noticeable after it's ported. It'll have more grunt to keep those RPMs up where it likes to be.


<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qW8OtZv0B_0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## young

looks very very interesting. i still want one. sooner then later.


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## WoodChuck'r

Heh there's that "eat a peach" guy in this this thread now.

He's eventually gonna have to post and tell us all why he chose that name, lol.


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## WoodChuck'r

Emm Ess Steel Four Hundred And Forty One.


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## blsnelling

Hey OKI Diaper Posse members, do I have permission to go ahead and give it a proper MM? Or do you *boys *have to run it bone stock first?:biggrin:


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## young

seems to me there is still a lot to be gained in stock form with more tanks of fuel. if MM'ed this early stage in the game we, you will never know how strong it is or can be.

but then again there will be other with the saw in stock form to compare it too.


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## Justsaws

If you get a chance pay some attention to the fuel consumption.

Met up with a fellow today that figues his 441 will pay for itself over it's service life compared to his current 440. He freaking loves his 441, maybe a bit much.

His fuel/mix puts him aound +/- $6.00 a gallon.


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## blsnelling

Compression is 158 PSI with a squish of .0275".


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## sgrizz

I think andy and nik would want to run it stock also . I say put some more tanks thru it stock then when its broken in, then start the surgery on her. this way nobody will say you didnt put enough tanks thru it stock vs ported . I am wondering what it would take to take a standered 441 and make it into a m tronic and would it be cost effective ? thanks .


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## blsnelling

I'm trying to figure out what to do with this muffler. There's not good place to put another deflector, other than the bottom. It fits nicely between the muffler and case and looks like a mouth, lol. The only possible issue is that it would blow straight forward in very close proximity to the bark. Shouldn't be an issue though once it's ported. It won't be in one place long enough to get that hot Another option is to really open the muffler up at the factory opening. This would mean no longer having a functional spark arrestor. I'll probably end up selling this saw, so that may not be a good idea. Ideas?


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## blsnelling

sgrizz said:


> I think andy and nik would want to run it stock also . I say put some more tanks thru it stock then when its broken in, then start the surgery on her. this way nobody will say you didnt put enough tanks thru it stock vs ported . I am wondering what it would take to take a standered 441 and make it into a m tronic and would it be cost effective ? thanks .


 
The only problem with that is I don't have any wood to cut. Besides, a saw isn't a saw until it has a MM!

They're talking about a conversion in the other thread too. I think it would only require the coil and carb. That's just a guess though.


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## young

blsnelling said:


> The only problem with that is I don't have any wood to cut. Besides, a saw isn't a saw until it has a MM!
> 
> They're talking about a conversion in the other thread too. I think it would only require the coil and carb. That's just a guess though.


 
needs more then that. besides the crank case half or hacking the stock 441 case, also needs the control module. if anyones really interested ill get the complete list together. 

but just those 3 parts (coil, carb, control mod) would make the change over very cost prohibitive. better to sell you 441 and buy new 441cm.


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## albert

Why not keep it stock untill it's fully broken in? Thats the only way to fairly compare stock to modded. Someone on here posted it took a lot of tanks to level out. The saw seem to be pretty hot stock.


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## sgrizz

I asked the same question in the other thread. I didnt see this thread until now my bad. 
The control switch is also different between the two models but that may be nothing to worry about.


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## Anthony_Va.

It's a really good looking saw. So, has anyone modded these with the m-tronic carbs yet? Maybe I have just missed it but I can't remember seeing one modded yet.


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## blsnelling

I'd rather port it before it's broken in. That way it breaks in with the configuration it will be staying with. I will tightening the squish at a minimum, meaning the rings will be going farther up in the bore. Plus, it could be months before I get to run a saw enough to properly break it in. I certainly will not be waiting that long.


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## blsnelling

Anthony_Va. said:


> It's a really good looking saw. So, has anyone modded these with the m-tronic carbs yet? Maybe I have just missed it but I can't remember seeing one modded yet.


 
Yes, and it screams. The M-Tronic carb has no trouble supplying the fuel.


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## sgrizz

young said:


> needs more then that. besides the crank case half or hacking the stock 441 case, also needs the control module. if anyones really interested ill get the complete list together.
> 
> but just those 3 parts (coil, carb, control mod) would make the change over very cost prohibitive. better to sell you 441 and buy new 441cm.


 
thanks young , I thought it might be to expensive to try to switch it over but i had to ask.


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## sgrizz

*HD spring kit#*

I would like to put the hd spring kit on my 441 . Does anyone have the part # for the kit ?


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## Anthony_Va.

Thats awesome. So it self adjusts to anything you do to it? What about the Huskys with the auto tune?


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## young

sgrizz said:


> I would like to put the hd spring kit on my 441 . Does anyone have the part # for the kit ?



*1138 007 1003* AV-Spring kit, hard


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## blsnelling

Anthony_Va. said:


> Thats awesome. So it self adjusts to anything you do to it? What about the Huskys with the auto tune?


 
I haven't seen a tech doc on how the Husky works, but the Stihl will work awesome with mods. My original thinking was that an O2 sensor would be required, and they're not there. It's much more simple than that. The only things monitored are engine temp and RPMs. I'm thinking engine temp is used for choke control only. Engine speed appears to be entirely controlled by RPM. But it's not just tuning to a target RPM. Instead, the carb pulls a small amount of fuel and then looks to see if RPMs rose or fell. If they rise they figure it was too rich and pulls another tiny amount of fuel. If they fall, they figure it's too lean and instead add a tiny amount of fuel. This way the engine is always tuned to max RPMs in the cut. Simple and effective! View attachment 194694


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## Anthony_Va.

Well, I officially want me one of those! They really are sharp looking with the R kit. Sounds like you cant go wrong with that new carb.


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## procarbine2k1

I called this the MS441 Autotune once at my shop. I thought it was funnier than they did haha. Good looking saw, will definitely be checking back in on this one.


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## young

sgrizz said:


> thanks young , I thought it might be to expensive to try to switch it over but i had to ask.


 
full list and ipl

*19* different parts needed to convert over to m-tronic.


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## MCW

A fellow AS member has a modded M Tronic and it positively hammers plus it is maintaining better than expected fuel economy. The videos are impressive. From what I've heard these saws remember previous settings upon startup so they obviously have some tricky components. Only issue I've heard which I mentioned in another thread is that the 2 saws tested by a forestry compliance company in Oz found they were running too hot (over 340 degrees C at the hottest point) to be legally used in Australian forestry. To me this would suggest they are running too lean from the factory for emissions compliance.


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## Rudolf73

Cool thread Brad! 

I think it's only a matter of time before someone works out how to set the carb using a USB contraption or similar and some nifty software. That should help modding the saw also. It's only a computer module after all and Stihl has the means to adjust the carb, but I'm guessing they probably won't adjust a modded saw carb for obvious reasons.


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## Stihlman441

So Brad what do you think of the larger clutch cover and mud flap ?.
With your porting work i assume you are looking for torque and not rpm,is there a rev limitter ?.
Do ya feel a bit strange not being able to adjust anything,i bet a srew driver didnt come with it.
I think we all are wotching with great interest.
Thanks


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## Terry Syd

The fact that the Husky system recommends setting up the Autotune by running the saw continuously between *8,000 - 12,000 *for 3-5 minutes, suggests that Husky and Stihl may have taken out a license for a third party's control module.

I too would like to see some better documentation for the Husky system - they may be very similar in operation.


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## Stihl n Wood

Way to dig in Brad, I'm interested in porting my 441, its the regular model. Probably the only saw I haven't ported yet. I guess I feel with it being a strato I'm a little weary as I have yet to mess with one. Should I go about porting as normal? I'm not looking to go crazy at first. If I follow this thread the porting should be the same? Anyways I do like my 441 more now that's she has well over 20 tanks through her. At first I will admit I wanted to throw it in the river. But now its pretty impressive. A bit heavy but good on fuel. I can't wait for the 461.....


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## young

Terry Syd said:


> The fact that the Husky system recommends setting up the Autotune by running the saw continuously between *8,000 - 12,000 *for 3-5 minutes, suggests that Husky and Stihl may have taken out a license for a third party's control module.
> 
> I too would like to see some better documentation for the Husky system - they may be very similar in operation.


 
on paper the new 555/560/562 AutoTune looks more advance due to the fact (looking at the IPL) it can be hook up to a pc unlike the M-Tronic.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE

blsnelling said:


> i haven't seen a tech doc on how the husky works, but the stihl will work awesome with mods. My original thinking was that an o2 sensor would be required, and they're not there. It's much more simple than that. The only things monitored are engine temp and rpms. I'm thinking engine temp is used for choke control only. Engine speed appears to be entirely controlled by rpm. But it's not just tuning to a target rpm. Instead, the carb pulls a small amount of fuel and then looks to see if rpms rose or fell. If they rise they figure it was too rich and pulls another tiny amount of fuel. If they fall, they figure it's too lean and instead add a tiny amount of fuel. This way the engine is always tuned to max rpms in the cut. Simple and effective! View attachment 194694


 i would think the saw will be a totally different machine after break-in. My 441 ran a lot better after 6 months. I would also be willing to bet if they can moniter engine temp,that helps control fuel as much as anytjing. Engine temp can be controlled with fuel as much as anything. They probably use rpm and temp to reg. Fuel. I have read any of the service info on these yet, but fully intend to. I am anxious to see a modded one run.


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## saxman

The only thing I can add to this discussion is, I got my 441 when they first came out, it was the hardest saw to bring in I had ever had. At least it took the longest and it was extremely cold natured when brand new. After many tanks of fuel and a muffler mod it is my favorite saw now. I use my 660 to chunk up big wood but use the 441 to noodle with and it handles a 28" bar just fine.

Steve


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## BlackAdder

I don't want to spoil the party, but I think you should run it in a bit more before modding it.

In the vid. it looked good but not Stella, and TBH, as it is now, some will be able to say, stock for stock a 372 would smoke it. I don't think it would be the case after run-in, but as they say, if there ain't no vid, it did'nt happen. :msp_unsure:

So do try to resist the urges, and run it in a bit more.


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## BloodOnTheIce

young said:


> on paper the new 555/560/562 AutoTune looks more advance due to the fact (looking at the IPL) it can be hook up to a pc unlike the M-Tronic.


 
That's good and all but ask a Husky dealer where the PC tool, and software is to do that, there isn't any.


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## blsnelling

I went ahead and modded the muffler last night. Anyone can mod a muffler and all I did was give back what the EPA or OSHA took away. I really don't care how it runs without a MM. Tonight, the saw is going home with Andre. He and Nik will run it and give their feedback.


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## zogger

*geek*



BloodOnTheIce said:


> That's good and all but ask a Husky dealer where the PC tool, and software is to do that, there isn't any.



You need to find a local geek who tweaks/ jailbreaks cellphones. You need geek work done, you need a geek to do it.


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## BlackAdder

*Muff Mod.*

Brad, how did you mod it in the end? Did you add another outlet or just open up the existing one?


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## blsnelling

BlackAdder said:


> Brad, how did you mod it in the end? Did you add another outlet or just open up the existing one?


 Yes, I simply opened up the existing outlet. It is the cleanest solution. There was no where that I liked a deflector. If it ever needs a spark arrestor, I I'll have to fab something up.


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## FATGUY

so what happens if Andre or me accidently loses the saw?


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## WoodChuck'r

BloodOnTheIce said:


> That's good and all but ask a Husky dealer where the PC tool, and software is to do that, there isn't any.






zogger said:


> You need to find a *local geek* who tweaks/ jailbreaks cellphones. *You need geek work done, you need a geek to do it.*


 

Keith could do it!!


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## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> so what happens if Andre or me accidently loses the saw?


 
Then you purposely find $1000 to replace it and the Light ES bar thats on it


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## young

BloodOnTheIce said:


> That's good and all but ask a Husky dealer where the PC tool, and software is to do that, there isn't any.


 
thats why you got to buy your own. i know i dont want my redneck husky dealer messing with it:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## JDNicol

young said:


> on paper the new 555/560/562 AutoTune looks more advance due to the fact (looking at the IPL) it can be hook up to a pc unlike the M-Tronic.


 


BloodOnTheIce said:


> That's good and all but ask a Husky dealer where the PC tool, and software is to do that, there isn't any.


 
Stihl tech notes do say the diagnostic jack on the side of the 441 C-M carb is "*preparation* for a software based diagnostic unit" as well.


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## young

JDNicol said:


> Stihl tech notes do say the diagnostic jack on the side of the 441 C-M carb is "*preparation* for a software based diagnostic unit" as well.


 
well currently only a test lead tool is available to diag it with a multimeter and 9v battery. same as stated in the 241cm workshop manual.


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## j.williams

how much of an increase of the muffler opening?


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## RiverRat2

blsnelling said:


> I'm trying to figure out what to do with this muffler. There's not good place to put another deflector, other than the bottom. It fits nicely between the muffler and case and looks like a mouth, lol. The only possible issue is that it would blow straight forward in very close proximity to the bark. Shouldn't be an issue though once it's ported. It won't be in one place long enough to get that hot Another option is to really open the muffler up at the factory opening. This would mean no longer having a functional spark arrestor. I'll probably end up selling this saw, so that may not be a good idea. Ideas?



Do the muffler mod ala Lakeside53 used on the 361 and use the tube type screen????

Just sayin,,,,,,


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## blsnelling

j.williams said:


> how much of an increase of the muffler opening?


 
A lot, lol.


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## zogger

*connector*



young said:


> well currently only a test lead tool is available to diag it with a multimeter and 9v battery. same as stated in the 241cm workshop manual.


 What does the connector look like? How many pins?


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## young

zogger said:


> What does the connector look like? How many pins?


 
2 pins to 2 leads. but look for your self.

tech info


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## spike60

BloodOnTheIce said:


> That's good and all but ask a Husky dealer where the PC tool, and software is to do that, there isn't any.


 There is, but not available yet.


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## spike60

Brad, how's the acceleration? If it's like Auto-Tune it should wind up pretty quick. 

I'm also guessing that the "hunting" for the sweet spot you mentioned started to go away as the saw was breaking in. 

Interesting that you noticed a gain after just one tank. Like you said, that's pretty unusual. The 555 I'm playing with now didn't really show a gain until I got near the end of the third tank, and I expect there will be some more of course.


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## zogger

*interesting*



young said:


> 2 pins to 2 leads. but look for your self.
> 
> tech info



The mass storage device is beyond those leads. What they indicate says they are using non volatile memory, plus there is probably an eprom? There's a programmable logic circuit backed up with the non volatile memory, most likely flash, that needs the input in order to make decisions, that's the running it to get it set stuff.

Works like this "if so, this, if not, that" a lot of times a second.

It's akin to what cars have, like when you pull a battery and they have to be driven to reset for optimal use. I bet a good car tuner or phone geek could get into one and pull some data out. Would most likely require surgery for access. I sincerely doubt it is all that well protected. Industrial stuff like this is typically "security by obscurity", nothing fancy. Stihl...a SWAG, an off the shelf Siemens chip inside.

But then..what for? I guarantee the programming and changes onboard are way beyond the speed someone could do with a screwdriver "in the cut". Most likely little to gain by tweaking, outside of racers who don't care if they burn up a saw to win some contest.


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## GA_Boy

zogger said:


> You need to find a local geek who tweaks/ jailbreaks cellphones. You need geek work done, you need a geek to do it.


 
That's assuming the m-tronic circuit is actually modifiable. I have a feeling it's not and just a circuit board with set parameters "burned in". 

Brad, is it possible to get a picture of the m-tronic board?


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## Rudolf73

GA_Boy said:


> That's assuming the m-tronic circuit is actually modifiable. I have a feeling it's not and just a circuit board with set parameters "burned in".
> 
> Brad, is it possible to get a picture of the m-tronic board?


 
Stihl techs have the ability to 'set' the carb if it's running to rich/lean. So it must be adjustable, just not sure how they do it exactly...


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## zogger

GA_Boy said:


> That's assuming the m-tronic circuit is actually modifiable. I have a feeling it's not and just a circuit board with set parameters "burned in".
> 
> Brad, is it possible to get a picture of the m-tronic board?



It says right in the docs it is programmable. That's what all that pre running running stuff is about. It has a set of gross basic parameters, enough so it will run, then the fine tune is established due to variances in all that other jazz they say in that pdf. And that is why they need onboard storage, the non volatile memory. Saws don't carry batteries, they can't use volatile memory.


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## GA_Boy

zogger said:


> It says right in the docs it is programmable. That's what all that pre running running stuff is about. It has a set of gross basic parameters, enough so it will run, then the fine tune is established due to variances in all that other jazz they say in that pdf. And that is why they need onboard storage, the non volatile memory. Saws don't carry batteries, they can't use volatile memory.


 
I got you, i didn't read the whole pdf, just skimmed over it and read how to use the test lead with the 9v and DMM.


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## Philbert

*Hey Zogger - Clean out Your Mailbox*



zogger said:


> Saws don't carry batteries, they can't use volatile memory.


 
Speaking of memory, *zogger your mailbox is full!* 
Please clean it out and PM me - I have something important to ask you offline but can't contact you!

Thanks.

_(OK - now back to the computerized saw. Sorry for the interruption guys.)_

Philbert


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## wyk

zogger said:


> It says right in the docs it is programmable. That's what all that pre running running stuff is about. It has a set of gross basic parameters, enough so it will run, then the fine tune is established due to variances in all that other jazz they say in that pdf. And that is why they need onboard storage, the non volatile memory. Saws don't carry batteries, they can't use volatile memory.


 
Non-volatile random-access memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EPROM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EEPROM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## blsnelling

spike60 said:


> Brad, how's the acceleration? If it's like Auto-Tune it should wind up pretty quick.
> 
> I'm also guessing that the "hunting" for the sweet spot you mentioned started to go away as the saw was breaking in.
> 
> Interesting that you noticed a gain after just one tank. Like you said, that's pretty unusual. The 555 I'm playing with now didn't really show a gain until I got near the end of the third tank, and I expect there will be some more of course.


 
Acceleration is great. After the MM, I fired it up and it didn't want to accelerate well at all for the first couple blips, then it was just magically perfect again. Tonight we fired it up for the first time today and it started on the first pull again. Throttle response was great, right off the bat. It's pretty cool how it learns. Andre took the saw home to run, so I'm looking forward to his feedback.


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## j.williams

any pics of the a lot bigger opening?


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## blsnelling

j.williams said:


> any pics of the a lot bigger opening?


 
Not yet. I did it last night, after I should have been in bed.


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## Stihl n Wood

Are you planning on porting it the same as any other 441? I really want to port mine but have yet to take it apart yet. I've have no clue on stratos. Im hoping you post up some play by play pics and info. I have muff modded it and that's about it. But that did wake it up some but you know some ain't good enough!


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## Officer's Match

C'mon Andre, I'm dyin' to hear your feedback...


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## mdavlee

You don't have anyone close with a 576 autotune to compare it with do you? I would like to see how they would compare stock with muffler mods.


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## Andyshine77

Officer's Match said:


> C'mon Andre, I'm dyin' to hear your feedback...


 
Well sorry but everyone will have to wait until tomorrow for a full review. Right now I've only started the saw, and ran it in a small log that I brought down to Nik's shop. Nevertheless I'm impressed with how the saw starts and accelerates, nice and snappy for a stock saw. Tomorrow I plan on running the 441 and my stock 7900 side by side, and making a video of each saw running the same bar and chain, in the same piece of wood. I think the 7900 has it's work cut out, the 441 sounds mean and so far feels strong.


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## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> You don't have anyone close with a 576 autotune to compare it with do you? I would like to see how they would compare stock with muffler mods.


 
I'd like to compare it to a 576-AT, but I don't know anyone that has one.


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## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> Well sorry but everyone will have to wait until tomorrow for a full review. Right now I've only started the saw, and ran it in a small log that I brought down to Nik's shop. Nevertheless I'm impressed with how the saw starts and accelerates, nice and snappy for a stock saw. Tomorrow I plan on running the 441 and my stock 7900 side by side, and making a video of each saw running the same bar and chain in the same piece of wood. I think the 7900 has it's work cut out, the 441 sounds mean and so far feels strong.


 
Good deal Andy. My money is on the Dolmar.


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## mdavlee

I think the 7900 will be hard for the 441 to take down. :msp_smile:I'll be impatiently waiting for the videos by the time I get off work tomorrow. :msp_wink:


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## abikerboy

young said:


> full list and ipl
> 
> *19* different parts needed to convert over to m-tronic.


 
Any chance that you might have the entire ipl for that 441 m-tronic? I'm curious as to what other parts differ from the standard 441.


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## abikerboy

blsnelling said:


> With that said, the saw seems to "hunt" for RPMs if there's any variation in load. Another thing to note is how it takes a second to idle down after coming off the throttle. This is not an issue at all, just different.


 
I think that you'll find the "hunting for rpm" will go away after a few tanks of run time. Mine seems to have settled down very well.


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## homelitejim

subscribing.


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## young

abikerboy said:


> Any chance that you might have the entire ipl for that 441 m-tronic? I'm curious as to what other parts differ from the standard 441.


 
those are ALL the different parts from m-tronic. rest of the ipl is the same for all ms441.


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## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Well sorry but everyone will have to wait until tomorrow for a full review. Right now I've only started the saw, and ran it in a small log that I brought down to Nik's shop. Nevertheless I'm impressed with how the saw starts and accelerates, nice and snappy for a stock saw. Tomorrow I plan on running the 441 and my stock 7900 side by side, and making a video of each saw running the same bar and chain, in the same piece of wood. I think the 7900 has it's work cut out, the 441 sounds mean and so far feels strong.


 
I'm very anxious to see what you think. I'm being told that the "hunting" will go away for the most part. It sounds like it's a "learing thing" for the saw until it's been run a bit. That does make sense. I hope Porsche965 doesn't mind, but I'm going to quote what he told me in a PM.

_"Brad, mine quit that after a few tanks, I think it tis the learning mode. And with time it does just a small bit of that depending onwhat bar you have on it too, like it switches back and forth identifying conditions and away she goes. You may eventually enjoy the observing side of a saw that thinks as much about you as a you are thinking about the saw! Lol! Imagine that, a chainsaw that watches brad! Lol."_


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## Officer's Match

Hmm, better watch what you say around that saw, don't wanna' get on it's bad side.


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## mdavlee

Andyshine clean out some pm space buddy.:msp_smile:


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## abikerboy

young said:


> those are ALL the different parts from m-tronic. rest of the ipl is the same for all ms441.


 
After I sat down and read the posts again I realised that. Sorry for the dumb question!


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## Stihl n Wood

My main question about porting the M-tronic 441 is what will it spin for rpms afterwards? On normal conditions you figure out and set the boundaries. Now what are the limitations of this system? Will it realize its been ported and spin at 15,000+ not lean? I mean you can't acutally adjust its Max output. From the factory it must have a limit to how high its allowed to rev? Or will it just find its own sweet spot by itself not running lean or rich?


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## blsnelling

Stihl n Wood said:


> My main question about porting the M-tronic 441 is what will it spin for rpms afterwards? On normal conditions you figure out and set the boundaries. Now what are the limitations of this system? Will it realize its been ported and spin at 15,000+ not lean? I mean you can't acutally adjust its Max output. From the factory it must have a limit to how high its allowed to rev? Or will it just find its own sweet spot by itself not running lean or rich?


 
According to what I've read, it will tune for max RPMs in the cut. That's the best tune you can have. The 441 C-M has already been ported with stellar results.


----------



## blsnelling

Alright Andre! I'm not sure how much longer I can wait!


----------



## Rudolf73

blsnelling said:


> Alright Andre! I'm not sure how much longer I can wait!


 
Lol, and same here.


----------



## Andyshine77

Sorry for the delay. I'm working on the video right now.:msp_smile:


----------



## Stihl n Wood

Look at all us kids waiting for Santa!


----------



## blsnelling

Alright already! I actually just went and checked your youtube page, lol. I was hoping the vid was uploaded and that you were just working on your write up.


----------



## blsnelling

Hey Andre, I didn't ask for an Oscar winning documentary


----------



## Andyshine77

No Oscar here just getting all the number and what not, plus we had some lightning and that cuts out my internet connection.:msp_angry:

Let me just put up the video with no review, I know you guys want it.

Here are the times I have.

441...
10.11
9.80
10.06

7900.......

9.1
9.3
8.94

The last two cuts were just for fun so the numbers really don't count.
<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EntZNKQai7U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## blsnelling

Very interesting. That's right on the heels of the 7900. CC for cc, the 441 is actually stronger. The 7900 is 10% larger in displacement, and only 8.8% faster.


----------



## blsnelling

Will you be posting your thoughts and opinions on it tonight? BTW, thanks for the vid. How much fuel did you get through it?


----------



## blsnelling

Andre's writing us a book now Can't wait to read it.


----------



## Rudolf73

Those are pretty good times considering the 441 is new and 7900's are generally strong right out the box. I wonder how it would compare to a stock 460 in that case.


----------



## blsnelling

My Dad has an early 046 with dual port and a muffler mod. It's otherwise stock.


----------



## Rudolf73

blsnelling said:


> My Dad has an early 046 with dual port and a muffler mod. It's otherwise stock.


 
Oh yeah, it was part of a chainsaw investigation if I remember correctly...


----------



## young

whats the power to weight ratio on the 2 saws? and which on has the higher potential with porting?


----------



## blsnelling

Guess I'll have to read the book tomorrow. I'm off to la la land.


----------



## Andyshine77

Just for clarification the wood was super soft Bass wood, about 24" or so. My 7900 has only had about 5 tanks of fuel through it and it's still very tight.

Pros...

From just feel, the 441 acts like it has more than one gear, when you really push down on her it just keeps going. IMHO this is solely because the saw can compensate for the load and add more fuel when needed. The 441 definitely has plenty of power, a stock 460 would struggle to keep up in any size or type of wood. On odd thing about this 441 is the fact the engine doesn't feel very tight, I can't say how much it will pick up with more time on it. Don't let the numbers fool you this saw pulls harder under load than the 7900, yup I said it. Despite the numbers I think it has a more usable power band than the 7900, not by much, but it's there. 

The AV is fine but not as smooth as a non wrap 441, or the 7900. Keep in mind I have always thought the 441 to be a bit smoother than the 7900, not so with the stiffer springs, but still very smooth, much more so than older Stihls, it's a non issue. The saw started in two pulls after sitting all night, very cool. 

A few Cons.

I did a bit of cutting in really thick woods with lots of undergrowth, and I can't say it's the best saw in this environment, especially with a 28" bar. Again the power is there, but so is the bulk. In my hands it reminds me more of a 390 Husky than a 372, it's a very bulky saw for the displacement. When I was swapping bars I handed my brother each saw without the B&C and asked him what he thought, he guessed the 441 was about 14.5 pounds. I handed him the 7900 and he quickly guessed it was 2 pounds lighter, this is obviously subjective, but I think he's close.

I do see a potential design issue with the 441. The integrated control lever has a lot of play, and when you push it all the way down for cold starts the lever bends and moves the carb around too much and doesn't always close the choke fully. I've never liked the master control on Stihl's, but this one is the worst operating out of any Stihl saws I've used. 

So would I buy the 441M over a 440 or 372? That would be tough, I just don't know if the power makes up for the bulk.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Guess I'll have to read the book tomorrow. I'm off to la la land.


 
Internet issues, lightning, sorry.:msp_sleep:


----------



## MacLaren

I cant believe how close it kept with the 7900
Impressive to say the least IMO


----------



## Andyshine77

MacLaren said:


> I cant believe how close it kept with the 7900
> Impressive to say the least IMO



Very impressive, but not a game changer, we'll see when it's ported.

If I could constantly adjust the carb on a 7900 I think it would give it a boost, as it seems to with every saw. A normal 441 has nothing on a 441M.


----------



## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> Very impressive, but not a game changer, we'll see when it's ported.
> 
> If I could constantly adjust the carb on a 7900 I think it would give it a boost, as it seems to with every saw. A normal 441 has nothing on a 441M.


 
Well Andy, isnt the Husqvarna 576AT the same a the 441M? If so, then watch out!


----------



## Andyshine77

MacLaren said:


> Well Andy, isnt the Husqvarna 576AT the same a the 441M? If so, then watch out!


 
I'd love to have one to test. Like the 441M I hear they're stronger than the non AT saws.

I plan on making a new video tomorrow, I' going to put a screw driver to the 7900 to see if I can't fine a little more HP, + bigger wood.


----------



## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> I'd love to have one to test. Like the 441M I hear they're stronger than the non AT saws.
> 
> I plan on making a new video tomorrow, I' going to put a screw driver to the 7900 to see if I can't fine a little more HP, + bigger wood.


 
Right  Those Dolmar's are a different breed IMO.


----------



## porsche965

Shouldn't the 441 be compared more to a 440 or 372 stocker right out of their boxes instead of a much larger saw like the 7900?

Isn't the 7900 more in the class of a 681 solo? 

A husky auto tune would be interesting too as mentioned before. 

This is more like a comparison of a 260 vs. A 361 in my opinion. I think I already know what would happen if I would sick my 441 Sawzilla on that dolmar.


----------



## FATGUY

porsche965 said:


> Shouldn't the 441 be compared more to a 440 or 372 stocker right out of their boxes instead of a much larger saw like the 7900?
> 
> Isn't the 7900 more in the class of a 681 solo?
> 
> A husky auto tune would be interesting too as mentioned before.
> 
> This is more like a comparison of a 260 vs. A 361 in my opinion. I think I already know what would happen if I would sick my 441 Sawzilla on that dolmar.


 
You're 100% right, however, the problem is that there's a shortage of stock saws in the Cincinnati area :hmm3grin2orange:. Andre's 7900 is the only stock saw we have that's anywhere near the cc's so that's why it was chosen.


----------



## Stihlman441

I think what you should do is get a new 460 keep it stock,run it against the M Tronic then get Brad to port both and run them again,then send the 460 to me.
Problem solved.:smile2:


----------



## Rudolf73

Stihlman441 said:


> I think what you should do is get a new 460 keep it stock,run it against the M Tronic then get Brad to port both and run them again,then send the 460 to me.
> Problem solved.:smile2:


 
That sounds like a plan Andrew!


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Internet issues, lightning, sorry.:msp_sleep:


Hey, don't sweat it. I'm just an impatient kid in a candy store



MacLaren said:


> I cant believe how close it kept with the 7900
> Impressive to say the least IMO


I'm shocked too, especially considering the reputation the 7900 has.



Stihlman441 said:


> I think what you should do is get a new 460 keep it stock,run it against the M Tronic then get Brad to port both and run them again,then send the 460 to me.
> Problem solved.:smile2:


 I have a brand new 460 here, the raffle saw. Unfortunately, it's no longer stock either. I could get my Dad's 046 though if there's enough interest and Andre wants to mess with it. It's a great running saw and well broken in. It didn't really need it, but I put new rings in it not that long ago. The saw's in perfect condition. If this 441 can keep up with that saw, then I am impressed.


----------



## MCW

Any signs that the M Tronic was running lean at all guys? As mentioned the ones out here were running too hot for forestry certificaton indicating lean running. They are certainly impressive though for what they are.
Oh and 441 Sawzilla mentioned above would certainly make short work of a stock 7900


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> Any signs that the M Tronic was running lean at all guys? As mentioned the ones out here were running too hot for forestry certificaton indicating lean running. They are certainly impressive though for what they are.
> Oh and 441 Sawzilla mentioned above would certainly make short work of a stock 7900


 
After the first tank, and killing the saw under load in the cut, the piston crown was dark brown. The plug was too new to have proper color.


----------



## AUSSIE1

porsche965 said:


> Shouldn't the 441 be compared more to a 440 or 372 stocker right out of their boxes instead of a much larger saw like the 7900?
> 
> Isn't the 7900 more in the class of a 681 solo?
> 
> A husky auto tune would be interesting too as mentioned before.
> 
> This is more like a comparison of a 260 vs. A 361 in my opinion. I think I already know what would happen if I would sick my 441 Sawzilla on that dolmar.


 
As much as your right, how many years has the 372 been compared against the 79cc Dolmar? :msp_wink:


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> As much as your right, how many years has the 372 been compared against the 79cc Dolmar? :msp_wink:


 
Well I don't think anybody would be game to compare a Dolmar with your fully sik 371 Al


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Well I don't think anybody would be game to compare a Dolmar with your fully sik 371 Al


 
Well, it's fully "sick" at the moment! :msp_thumbdn:


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Well, it's fully "sick" at the moment! :msp_thumbdn:



Oh. Fully sick as opposed to fully sik is serious. Worked it out yet mate? Need crank?


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Oh. Fully sick as opposed to fully sik is serious. Worked it out yet mate? Need crank?


 
Might do yet mate. I'm going to pop the other piston I have in there and pop the cyl only on and check again. I just can't locate where it is coming from as all bearings at this stage feel fine. Process of elimination I spose.


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Might do yet mate. I'm going to pop the other piston I have in there and pop the cyl only on and check again. I just can't locate where it is coming from as all bearings at this stage feel fine. Process of elimination I spose.



Rod stretch from 20,000rpm.


----------



## MacLaren

MCW said:


> Any signs that the M Tronic was running lean at all guys? As mentioned the ones out here were running too hot for forestry certificaton indicating lean running. They are certainly impressive though for what they are.
> Oh and 441 Sawzilla mentioned above would certainly make short work of a stock 7900


 
Im sure it would. But that was never in question.


----------



## albert

MCW said:


> Any signs that the M Tronic was running lean at all guys? As mentioned the ones out here were running too hot for forestry certificaton indicating lean running. They are certainly impressive though for what they are.
> Oh and 441 Sawzilla mentioned above would certainly make short work of a stock 7900


 
I don't think it could run too lean, it just keeps mixture at optimum where mosy saws are slightly richer that optimun. Combined with strato design, would like make a hotter muffler. Just my opinion.


----------



## albert

Andyshine77 said:


> I'd love to have one to test. Like the 441M I hear they're stronger than the non AT saws.
> 
> I plan on making a new video tomorrow, I' going to put a screw driver to the 7900 to see if I can't fine a little more HP, + bigger wood.


 
Yeah the 7900 seemed too lean, it didn't like being pushed in that soft wood. It think a liitle tuning under load will help. I really like this 441cm!


----------



## mdavlee

Comparing it to the 046 should be a good comparison. Does the 046 have the larger muffler openings or a muffler mod?


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Comparing it to the 046 should be a good comparison. Does the 046 have the larger muffler openings or a muffler mod?


 
Dad's 046 came off the shelf the very first month they were available. It come stock with the muffler body having a large exhaust exit AND the dual port cover. I have opened them up even more. Other than that, the saw is bone stock. It's an excellent runner. It would make an excellent saw to test against.


----------



## bruiser 1

blsnelling said:


> I'm trying to figure out what to do with this muffler. There's not good place to put another deflector, other than the bottom. It fits nicely between the muffler and case and looks like a mouth, lol. The only possible issue is that it would blow straight forward in very close proximity to the bark. Shouldn't be an issue though once it's ported. It won't be in one place long enough to get that hot Another option is to really open the muffler up at the factory opening. This would mean no longer having a functional spark arrestor. I'll probably end up selling this saw, so that may not be a good idea. Ideas?


 
Right on Brad!!! You get a rep for that. I've had mine 2 years now no problamos yet. I'm wondering when Stihl is gonna make a dual port for the 441. I just opened up the factory port bigger, took out plastic lim screws clipped them and opened her up. That "rocking horse feel" that some say I don't notice, like you said let the saw do it's thing.


----------



## MacLaren

porsche965 said:


> Shouldn't the 441 be compared more to a 440 or 372 stocker right out of their boxes instead of a much larger saw like the 7900?
> 
> Isn't the 7900 more in the class of a 681 solo?
> 
> A husky auto tune would be interesting too as mentioned before.
> 
> This is more like a comparison of a 260 vs. A 361 in my opinion. I think I already know what would happen if I would sick my 441 Sawzilla on that dolmar.


 
John, I agree 100%. But I was always told the 7900 fell in the 70cc series. And, as long as it is then it will prolly always be "the bull of the woods" in the 70cc class. As for the 681 im not sure as it is 80.7cc.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Shouldn't the 441 be compared more to a 440 or 372 stocker right out of their boxes instead of a much larger saw like the 7900?
> 
> Isn't the 7900 more in the class of a 681 solo?
> 
> A husky auto tune would be interesting too as mentioned before.
> 
> This is more like a comparison of a 260 vs. A 361 in my opinion. I think I already know what would happen if I would sick my 441 Sawzilla on that dolmar.


 
Sure, but 8cc is close, plus it doesn't have a MM.


----------



## Andyshine77

MCW said:


> Any signs that the M Tronic was running lean at all guys? As mentioned the ones out here were running too hot for forestry certificaton indicating lean running. They are certainly impressive though for what they are.
> Oh and 441 Sawzilla mentioned above would certainly make short work of a stock 7900


 
I'll check the plug after I run it in a few minutes. I can tell you just from the sound of the saw It's not running lean. IMHO one of two things went wrong withe the certification. One the saw was likely too new and didn't have time to adjust it's self, and two the exhaust can on any saw will get over 340C 644F so the test is pointless IMHO.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*inthewoodsagain*



Andyshine77 said:


> Just for clarification the wood was super soft Bass wood, about 24" or so. My 7900 has only had about 5 tanks of fuel through it and it's still very tight.
> 
> Pros...
> 
> From just feel, the 441 acts like it has more than one gear, when you really push down on her it just keeps going. IMHO this is solely because the saw can compensate for the load and add more fuel when needed. The 441 definitely has plenty of power, a stock 460 would struggle to keep up in any size or type of wood. On odd thing about this 441 is the fact the engine doesn't feel very tight, I can't say how much it will pick up with more time on it. Don't let the numbers fool you this saw pulls harder under load than the 7900, yup I said it. Despite the numbers I think it has a more usable power band than the 7900, not by much, but it's there.
> 
> The AV is fine but not as smooth as a non wrap 441, or the 7900. Keep in mind I have always thought the 441 to be a bit smoother than the 7900, not so with the stiffer springs, but still very smooth, much more so than older Stihls, it's a non issue. The saw started in two pulls after sitting all night, very cool.
> 
> A few Cons.
> 
> I did a bit of cutting in really thick woods with lots of undergrowth, and I can't say it's the best saw in this environment, especially with a 28" bar. Again the power is there, but so is the bulk. In my hands it reminds me more of a 390 Husky than a 372, it's a very bulky saw for the displacement. When I was swapping bars I handed my brother each saw without the B&C and asked him what he thought, he guessed the 441 was about 14.5 pounds. I handed him the 7900 and he quickly guessed it was 2 pounds lighter, this is obviously subjective, but I think he's close.
> 
> I do see a potential design issue with the 441. The integrated control lever has a lot of play, and when you push it all the way down for cold starts the lever bends and moves the carb around too much and doesn't always close the choke fully. I've never liked the master control on Stihl's, but this one is the worst operating out of any Stihl saws I've used.
> 
> So would I buy the 441M over a 440 or 372? That would be tough, I just don't know if the power makes up for the bulk.


 
I have seen so much chit chat on the Stihl MS441cm that I have signed up for this forum!! Have used old Huskies from my youth but when they started with washing machines I sold them all and bought stihl. 
I run currently run year 2008 ms660,ms460, new ms441cm and ms211cbe. I sell 30 tonnes of hardwood a week and am happy. They all use genuine stihl oils ie Ultra and Bioplus chain and chains are run on a 2/1sprocket or 1/1rim. All chains are RSC and are sharpened using Stihl USG sharpener. I cannot believe the level of some of the comments. Frankly,go elsewhere, you standard of chain saw knowlege is frankly worrying and I for one would not like to work with or near you!!!!!!!. 
My ms 441 cm run weekly a 20" bar and at weekends runs a 30" bar in BEECH and more importantly DEAD ELM ie 30year old! Do the 5 continuous cuts method and saw will tune its self. Did bore out exhaust but had ecu faliure but followed you diog and no probs. My old ms460 di 2007 hrs befor mega rebuild on original guts. it was run on mobil 2stroke fully synth oil which was not cheap nor was the bar oil but it paid its way nd bought my hilux. You get what you pay for but I also have have huge respect for this tunner snelling guy as frankly, he should be working for Stihl!

Big Thanks to you and everybody else for a great forum Jon


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*inthewoodsagain*



blsnelling said:


> I went ahead and modded the muffler last night. Anyone can mod a muffler and all I did was give back what the EPA or OSHA took away. I really don't care how it runs without a MM. Tonight, the saw is going home with Andre. He and Nik will run it and give their feedback.


 When we going to see pics of you muffler mod mate ie how much you filed out!? Best and most handtest saw ever. I even use it on a 16" duromatic. We have had 4 of these since september 2010. Will run for ages but have bad techs at dealers so have bought diag kit and run to the "book" Your vids and youtube are vital and are the best. Thankyou so much for you efforts. Cheers Jon UK


----------



## Stihl n Wood

Brad, you should beat stihl to it and adapt the M-tronic system onto a 460. I have a feeling when the 461 comes along so wont M-tronic version!


----------



## MacLaren

Stihl n Wood said:


> Brad, you should beat stihl to it and adapt the M-tronic system onto a 460. I have a feeling when the 461 comes along so wont M-tronic version!


 
460? More like a 660! :rocker:


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Fark Stihl, lol.


I'd like to see a 576 AT up against a 441C-M, ported and stock.


I don't give a rats @$$ whether I'm wrong or not but my money would be on the 576'er all day long.....


----------



## Rudolf73

Wouldn't it be cool if Baileys could come up with a complete aftermarket kit including coil/computer module/carb for the popular pro models.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

WoodChucker81 said:


> Fark Stihl, lol.
> 
> 
> I'd like to see a 576 AT up against a 441C-M, ported and stock.
> 
> 
> I don't give a rats @$$ whether I'm wrong or not but my money would be on the 576'er all day long.....


 

Throw in the 372 X-Torq and that'll win as well, lol.


----------



## Stihl n Wood

True that! Soon everything will be M-tronic or E.F.I....I'm just saying with the new arrival of the 461 around the corner.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Stihl n Wood said:


> I'm just saying with the new arrival of the 461 around the corner.


 
Give it a year or two.....


----------



## CR500

WoodChucker81 said:


> Give it a year or two.....


 
supposed to be here in December or March I hear


----------



## WoodChuck'r

CR500 said:


> supposed to be here in December or March I hear


 
Hmm interesting.....

Last I heard it was looking a lot like a late 2012 release or possibly sometime in 2013.


I guess we'll see! The sooner the better I think.....


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

WoodChucker81 said:


> Hmm interesting.....
> 
> Last I heard it was looking a lot like a late 2012 release or possibly sometime in 2013.
> 
> 
> I guess we'll see! The sooner the better I think.....


hmmmmm, are we sure of that??????????


----------



## WoodChuck'r

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> hmmmmm, are we sure of that??????????


 

Lol absolutely not that's why I said it's what I heard and the sooner the better.....


----------



## Rudolf73

I read somewhere that Stihl US had something like 600 460's in stock and they need to be sold before the 461 is put on the shelf.

Could be wrong though...


----------



## WoodChuck'r

I'm tired. I cold really use a cup of coffee right now.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

I have to poop too.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Well better go get some coffee then go blow......


No one's prolly gonna do it for me....


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

Rudolf73 said:


> I read somewhere that Stihl US had something like 600 460's in stock and they need to be sold before the 461 is put on the shelf.
> 
> Could be wrong though...


i know for a fact that there less than 400 in central ohio, and they are going a little quicker now since they are on the way out. i would guess there are alot more than 600 in the pipe line. besides it will be like the 440,no stop in production, just distribution in the u.s.


----------



## CR500

WoodChucker81 said:


> Lol absolutely not that's why I said it's what I heard and the sooner the better.....


 
Better get here soon... the world ends next year allegedly 12/21/12


----------



## WoodChuck'r

CR500 said:


> Better get here soon... the world ends next year allegedly 12/21/12


 

Yeah it also ended on March 23rd 1997 for the 39 freaks of the Heavens Gate Cult.....


----------



## Justsaws

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> i know for a fact that there less than 400 in central ohio, and they are going a little quicker now since they are on the way out. i would guess there are alot more than 600 in the pipe line. besides it will be like the 440,no stop in production, just distribution in the u.s.


 
:msp_scared:
:waaaht:
hone:
:haha:
It's all good.


----------



## MCW

albert said:


> I don't think it could run too lean, it just keeps mixture at optimum where mosy saws are slightly richer that optimun. Combined with strato design, would like make a hotter muffler. Just my opinion.



I agree but the maximum temp rating for certification stays the same regardless of whether it's a strato design or not. I asked whether the stratos have a different temp rating but no they don't and from a bushfire point of view doesn't matter. To reach EPA standards though we do seem to be seeing a lot of factory saws set leaner than ideal lately but not saying this is the case here.



Andyshine77 said:


> I'll check the plug after I run it in a few minutes. I can tell you just from the sound of the saw It's not running lean. IMHO one of two things went wrong withe the certification. One the saw was likely too new and didn't have time to adjust it's self, and two the exhaust can on any saw will get over 340C 644F so the test is pointless IMHO.



I can see what you're saying Andy but the Australian testing is certainly not pointless although probably less relevant to other countries with higher rainfall areas, different tree species, and different weather conditions. I asked a number of questions as to how this temperature level came about and it had a lot to do with ignition points in bushfires etc. Bushfires in our country, and in certain parts of the US no doubt, are no laughing matter. Many people have died here from things as simple as a car exhaust being too hot or a stationary engine catching leaf litter alight - they haven't pulled these numbers out of mid air. I'm glad you've said the saw sounds rich enough and I think it did too in the vids. What this test has said to Stihl Australia however is to fix the problem or any model of saw cracking the magic 340°c mark simply won't be bought by forestry or anybody other than weekend hacks and firewood cutters. Any bushfires started however even by a backyarder with a non compliant saw would really open a can of worms - the court case would be huge especially if property or lives were lost because of it. The saws tested were given a good workout by all acounts so I'd have thought they would have self adjusted by the time the test was taken. By the way I'm not anti M Tronic and neither were the testers - I love the idea 
I'd also wished I'd had the 7900 checked as that has caught bark alight very easily, even my stock saws have when the exhaust port is jammed in against dry bark or leaf litter. Eucalypt is extremely easy to catch alight as it has a lot of volatile oils in it.
Also there is no reason why saws destined for the Australian market can't be tweaked differently to those in the US as although we share many emissions standards you guys do seem to cop it more than us.


----------



## Andyshine77

Matt I understand about the heat issue and fire prevention. What I was really getting at is the exhaust cans on every stock saw I've ran to date, under load will get the muffler can red in spots. You can see this when it's getting pretty dark out. I guess it's possible to get the outside temps down, but that would likely mean extra size and weight. Do you know what part of the saw they're taking the reading from?


----------



## Terry Syd

If the temperature is taken off the muffler, I wonder how a muffler mod to reduce backpressure would affect the temperature rise of the muffler. 

If it is one hot spot on the front of the muffler where the exhaust hits it, a simple baffle inside the front would absorb most of that heat and give a cooler reading on the outside.


----------



## Andyshine77

Brad came town this evening and we ran the 441, 7900 and Brad's dad's stock 046 with DP muffler. I did tune my 7900 and it seem to help some.

Here are the times. Take into consideration not every cut is made simply for the fastest time, light load, medium and heavy.

441.
12.23
13.02
13.89

046.
11.34
14.04
One cut was lost because I cut out.

7900.
10.93 
11.05
11.78
12.17

Now for the video.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WCp-QH6iFkQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad came town this evening and we ran the 441, 7900 and Brad's dad's stock 046 with DP muffler. I did tune my 7900 and it seem to help some.
> 
> Here are the times. Take into consideration not every cut is made simply for the fastest time, light load, medium and heavy.
> 
> 441.
> 12.23
> 13.02
> 13.89
> 
> 046.
> 11.34
> 14.04
> One cut was lost because I cut out.
> 
> 7900.
> 11.78
> 10.93
> 12.17
> 11.05
> 
> Now for the video.


 
Not bad at all, especially considering the 441 is still on it's second tank of fuel. That 046 has seen many a chord of wood and many gallons of fuel. I will add that I didn't notice the 441 hunting hardly at all. I'm not sure if it has simply "learned" or if it just didn't show as much in this softer Bass wood.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Not bad at all, especially considering the 441 is still on it's second tank of fuel. That 046 has seen many a chord of wood and many gallons of fuel. I will add that I didn't notice the 441 hunting hardly at all. I'm not sure if it has simply "learned" or if it just didn't show as much in this softer Bass wood.


 
I Noticed it a little yesterday, I think it learned. Soft wood yes, but we still loaded the saws pretty good.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> I Noticed it a little yesterday, I think it learned. Soft wood yes, but we still loaded the saws pretty good.


 
That we did, and the fastest cut times were those with a heavier load. It looks like you might have the opportunity to compare it to a new 576AT. After that, the 441 will go under the knife.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> That we did, and the fastest cut times were those with a heavier load. It looks like you might have the opportunity to compare it to a new 576AT. After that, the 441 will go under the knife.


 
I was just going to post..........

A kind member from this site has offered to send me a new in the box 576-AT, he hasn't even bought the saw yet. If he chooses to come out and state his name that's up to him, nevertheless. Thank you!!!!!!!


----------



## blsnelling

Save some of that log for a rerun of the 441 after I port it.


----------



## Officer's Match

Fella's, thanks a BUNCH for doing this, including the-as-of-yet-unnamed-hero allowing the 576AT in on this, I couldn't ask for more (as I'm sure lots of others will say too).


----------



## Rudolf73

Officer's Match said:


> Fella's, thanks a BUNCH for doing this, including the-as-of-yet-unnamed-hero allowing the 576AT in on this, I couldn't ask for more (as I'm sure lots of others will say too).


 
I think the unnamed-hero needs some rep! and so do Andy and Brad :msp_thumbup:


----------



## young

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad came town this evening and we ran the 441, 7900 and Brad's dad's stock 046 with DP muffler. I did tune my 7900 and it seem to help some.
> 
> Here are the times. Take into consideration not every cut is made simply for the fastest time, light load, medium and heavy.
> 
> 441.
> 12.23
> 13.02
> 13.89
> 
> 046.
> 11.34
> 14.04
> One cut was lost because I cut out.
> 
> 7900.
> 11.78
> 10.93
> 12.17
> 11.05
> 
> Now for the video.
> 
> <iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WCp-QH6iFkQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



no 460 video:frown:


----------



## Rudolf73

young said:


> no 460 video:frown:


 
But there's a 046 in the video...


----------



## WoodChuck'r

$5 says the 576 takes it. 

Another $5 on the 372xt. That saw needs to be part of this if it isn't already.



I'm an honest man and I'll pay if anyone wants to rumble.


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

WoodChucker81 said:


> $5 says the 576 takes it.
> 
> Another $5 on the 372xt. That saw needs to be part of this if it isn't already.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm an honest man and I'll pay if anyone wants to rumble.


 
Hey come buy a 460 Arctic and stop wasting your money on losing bets :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Philbert

young said:


> B]19[/B] different parts needed to convert over to m-tronic.


 
How about the reverse? If someone had and M-tronic or AT saw that was messed up, damaged, etc. Could they convert it to a conventional saw by swapping out just the coil and carb, or would anything else need to be changed or removed on these saws?

Thanks.

Philbert


----------



## WoodChuck'r

BloodOnTheIce said:


> Hey come buy a 460 Arctic and stop wasting your money on losing bets :hmm3grin2orange:


 
Put a 460 Arctic, a 441 CM, and a 440 off to the side. I'll give ya $400 a month til all 3 are paid off, then I'll come pick'em up. I want a 20" bar on each saw, 050 / 3/8, full chizzy, lol. 


And concerning the bet, I think the taker is gonna pay me, provided someone wants to take the bet. Like I said, if I'm wrong I'm wrong - I'll eat my own dumbass words and pay up.


----------



## young

Philbert said:


> How about the reverse? If someone had and M-tronic or AT saw that was messed up, damaged, etc. Could they convert it to a conventional saw by swapping out just the coil and carb, or would anything else need to be changed or removed on these saws?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert


 
at least you still need the flywheel and maybe the master switch and wiring harness.

remove wise, the tigger unit would have to go alone with the carb and coil/control unit.

it be cheaper to repair then convert it over.


----------



## FATGUY

WoodChucker81 said:


> $5 says the 576 takes it.
> 
> Another $5 on the 372xt. That saw needs to be part of this if it isn't already.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm an honest man and I'll pay if anyone wants to rumble.


 


WoodChucker81 said:


> Put a 460 Arctic, a 441 CM, and a 440 off to the side. I'll give ya $400 a month til all 3 are paid off, then I'll come pick'em up. I want a 20" bar on each saw, 050 / 3/8, full chizzy, lol.
> 
> 
> And concerning the bet, I think the taker is gonna pay me, provided someone wants to take the bet. Like I said, if I'm wrong I'm wrong - I'll eat my own dumbass words and pay up.


 
tell you what, if the 441's faster than the autotune, you buy a raffle ticket in my name for the buildoff saw. If the 576 is faster, I'll buy one in your name.


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

WoodChucker81 said:


> Put a 460 Arctic, a 441 CM, and a 440 off to the side. I'll give ya $400 a month til all 3 are paid off, then I'll come pick'em up. I want a 20" bar on each saw, 050 / 3/8, full chizzy, lol.
> 
> 
> And concerning the bet, I think the taker is gonna pay me, provided someone wants to take the bet. Like I said, if I'm wrong I'm wrong - I'll eat my own dumbass words and pay up.


 
Stihl ES Bars or Windsor Speed Tip Bars? I'll put the saws by the lay-away counter.


----------



## mdavlee

I think the 576 will give the 441 a good run. I hope it makes it by mid week so we can have videos to argue over next weekend.:msp_wink:

opcorn:


----------



## blsnelling

WoodChucker81 said:


> Another $5 on the 372xt. That saw needs to be part of this if it isn't already.


 
Are you sending one down?


----------



## j.williams

would like to see a pic of the mm.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*Inthewoodsagain*



inthewoodsagain said:


> When we going to see pics of you muffler mod mate ie how much you filed out!? Best and most handtest saw ever. I even use it on a 16" duromatic. We have had 4 of these since september 2010. Will run for ages but have bad techs at dealers so have bought diag kit and run to the "book" Your vids and youtube are vital and are the best. Thankyou so much for you efforts. Cheers Jon U
> 
> have opened up original OEM exhaust outlet opening by a total of 85% of original engine cylinder exhaust port and after 5X continous cuts in same dia wood, a 30sec idle then stopthen restart and repeat the saw will retune and away you go. Incredible. Used rollermatic E and RSC 3/8 standard chain and 7rim sprocket- ie standard I have noticed it do have a sutle issue with a 16"bar ie hunts. Stihl uk catalog does not print 16" bar for ms441cm but does fo ms441 carb!


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*inthewoodsagain*



Andyshine77 said:


> Matt I understand about the heat issue and fire prevention. What I was really getting at is the exhaust cans on every stock saw I've ran to date, under load will get the muffler can red in spots. You can see this when it's getting pretty dark out. I guess it's possible to get the outside temps down, but that would likely mean extra size and weight. Do you know what part of the saw they're taking the reading from?


 
Hi m8, just a side coment but all my saws ie 660,x2 460, x211 have a foil reflector under the chain brake handle- the 441cm's don't so why and we have not noticed a larger amount of heat and we cross-cut hardwood allday with ours ie 60litres of juice + Ultra oil and stihl bioplus!!!!!!!


----------



## WoodChuck'r

BloodOnTheIce said:


> Stihl ES Bars or Windsor Speed Tip Bars? I'll put the saws by the lay-away counter.


 
Stihl.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

441rcm/25" now showing in stock, 689.95 is dealer net.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

blsnelling said:


> Are you sending one down?


 

Nope, don't have one. I would if I had one.....

Someone should send one out for the cause though, lol....


----------



## mdavlee

Chucker why don't you call spike and get a 372 xt on the way?oke:

I would like to see that comparison also.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

mdavlee said:


> Chucker why don't you call spike and get a 372 xt on the way?oke:
> 
> I would like to see that comparison also.


 

Heh if I had $800 it'd prolly be happening.....


----------



## WoodChuck'r

FATGUY said:


> tell you what, if the 441's faster than the autotune, you buy a raffle ticket in my name for the buildoff saw. If the 576 is faster, I'll buy one in your name.


 
10-4 big guy. It's a deal.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*inthewoodsagain*



STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> 441rcm/25" now showing in stock, 689.95 is dealer net.


 
cheapest we get them for is £810 in 20% VAT for 4 head units with a 20" bar RSC chain and no wrap oor big bumper spikes/ Get them seperatly for £100+20% vat!


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*inthewoodsagain*



inthewoodsagain said:


> When we going to see pics of you muffler mod mate ie how much you filed out!? Best and most handtest saw ever. I even use it on a 16" duromatic. We have had 4 of these since september 2010. Will run for ages but have bad techs at dealers so have bought diag kit and run to the "book" Your vids and youtube are vital and are the best. Thankyou so much for you efforts. Cheers Jon UK


 
Brad, come on m8, show us your zorzt-gap! or did you do what I did and filed 85% and let engine tune its self? Great saw isn't. Just bought anther 2 more today so now have 6 in the fleet! and traded both 460's and an old stock 660.Was offered a h!576at but was it was awaiting a new starter recoil!!!!!. Enough said! Am saving around 50 litres of juice a week but alo spending 50% more on mix oil but am happy as saws are great to use.Thanks again for your input. Jon


----------



## blsnelling

I don't have the saw here. I left it with Andre to compare to the 576AT next week.


----------



## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> I don't have the saw here. I left it with Andre to compare to the 576AT next week.


 
Yup, Mike told me she was going to Andy. You guys break her in real good. LOL, I bet Mike will never get a chance to run that saw after it shows ya what it can do......


----------



## mdavlee

You might be right. If the autotune version is stronger than the regular version like they say it should be pretty strong. I guess we will see when it gets there.


----------



## MS460WOODCHUCK

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad came town this evening and we ran the 441, 7900 and Brad's dad's stock 046 with DP muffler. I did tune my 7900 and it seem to help some.
> 
> Here are the times. Take into consideration not every cut is made simply for the fastest time, light load, medium and heavy.
> 
> 441.
> 12.23
> 13.02
> 13.89
> 
> 046.
> 11.34
> 14.04
> One cut was lost because I cut out.
> 
> 7900.
> 10.93
> 11.05
> 11.78
> 12.17
> 
> Now for the video.
> 
> <iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WCp-QH6iFkQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


 

I would say the 046 held its own pretty well! Only got a chance at 2 cuts and one of them beat 2 of the dolmars cuts which had 4 cuts to prove its self. Not to mention it beat all of the 441's times. Not bad for a 16-17 year old saw thats been feeding the stove faithfully IMO.


----------



## blsnelling

ms460woodchuck said:


> I would say the 046 held its own pretty well! Only got a chance at 2 cuts and one of them beat 2 of the dolmars cuts which had 4 cuts to prove its self. Not to mention it beat all of the 441's times. Not bad for a 16-17 year old saw thats been feeding the stove faithfully IMO.


 
I'm glad you mentioned that. I was so focused on the 441 that I didn't even notice how the 046 compared to the 7900. The 440 and 460 are still my most favorite 70cc saws, with the 372 being right behind.


----------



## joeclimbing

[The 440 and 460 are still my most favorite 70cc saws, with the 372 being right behind.[/QUOTE]

Why is the 372 behind them?


----------



## Anthony_Va.

joeclimbing said:


> Why is the 372 behind them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure he's just speaking his opinion on them.
Click to expand...


----------



## MS460WOODCHUCK

Anthony_Va. said:


> joeclimbing said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure he's just speaking his opinion on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your statement..... and Brads!
Click to expand...


----------



## Andyshine77

ms460woodchuck said:


> I would say the 046 held its own pretty well! Only got a chance at 2 cuts and one of them beat 2 of the dolmars cuts which had 4 cuts to prove its self. Not to mention it beat all of the 441's times. Not bad for a 16-17 year old saw thats been feeding the stove faithfully IMO.


 
The 046 Isn't bad for an old school saw, it's no 7900 by a long shot, jab but not bad. Remember not every cut was made for simply the fastest time. All cuts were shown slow and fast, the only one not in the vid is the one where I cut out.

I'll let you all know as soon as the saw arrives, pics and video will fallow shortly after. 

Mike I tried to return you call I got your VM, again feel free to call.

Someone asked for a MM pic.


----------



## mdavlee

Alright andre i'll hit you up about 8:30 or so when I get off work. 

The saw is supposed to be on the way today.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> Alright andre i'll hit you up about 8:30 or so when I get off work.
> 
> The saw is supposed to be on the way today.


 
Great!! it should be here by Wednesday.


----------



## MacLaren

All right then men, the big Swede will prolly roll in there about Wednesday. Gonna make for a great weekend!


----------



## mdavlee

I would think it would be 2 days from NY to OH. I hope to see pictures of my new saw that I don't get to run first wednesday evening.


----------



## wooddog 066

*porting*

Anyone know... sorry to jump in thread but anyone that will port my 660 stihl for me i sent a PM to brad snelling he didnt get back to me where i can reach him i want it woodsported or anyone else you guys recommend?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

*Groceries*

Yeah um sorry to jump in like this myself but I'm looking for good deals on Domino sugar and artichokes and I misplaced my weekly Sams Club flyer so I don't know the best deals if anyone could help me I'd appreciate it thanks.


----------



## FATGUY

Package size? White or brown sugar Jason? If brown, light or dark? How can people help you if you don't tell them what you need?


----------



## wooddog 066

I guess i made someone mad!!!!!?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

wooddog 066 said:


> I guess i made someone mad!!!!!?


 

Hah! Me mad?! That'll be the day!


Just breakin' yer balls is all brotha man! Roll with it.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

FATGUY said:


> Package size? White or brown sugar Jason? If brown, light or dark?


 

Kinda weird you wanna know about my package size Nik, but hey it's cool buddy. If you really wanna know I'm smaller than small. Like so pathetically small it's not even a laughable matter.

Nah, just kidding. I actually resemble a Pringles can.



Definitely like'em brown. How brown....?? The blacker the berry the sweeter the juice!!!


----------



## FATGUY

WoodChucker81 said:


> *Kinda weird you wanna know about my package size Nik*, but hey it's cool buddy. If you really wanna know I'm smaller than small. Like so pathetically small it's not even a laughable matter.
> 
> Nah, just kidding. I actually resemble a Pringles can.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely like'em brown. How brown....?? The blacker the berry the sweeter the juice!!!


 
don't judge me man


----------



## mdavlee

You guys are just wrong. Costco has the best prices on sugar.:smile2:


----------



## blsnelling

joeclimbing said:


> [The 440 and 460 are still my most favorite 70cc saws, with the 372 being right behind.



Why is the 372 behind them?[/QUOTE]



Anthony_Va. said:


> joeclimbing said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure he's just speaking his opinion on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, they're all awesome saws.
Click to expand...


----------



## blsnelling

wooddog 066 said:


> Anyone know... sorry to jump in thread but anyone that will port my 660 stihl for me i sent a PM to brad snelling he didnt get back to me where i can reach him i want it woodsported or anyone else you guys recommend?


 
Sorry, just been too busy. I'm not taking any work for a couple weeks.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> don't judge me man


 
Well I know I can't judge you, especially after what happened in the back of your Honda Saturday night.opcorn: 




Thread should be back on track by Wednesday.:wink2:


----------



## Wild Knight

Back seat, eh? You guys were in the potty a while too.


----------



## spike60

Andyshine77 said:


> Great!! it should be here by Wednesday.


 

Well..........it will be Thursday. Yesterday was a rare no UPS delivery day for me, but it will leave today because I have several things coming. 

Hog it into some big wood right from the get-go. Gonna take a several tanks to really wake up; I don't think they're all that quick out of the box compared to when they're broken in. Ten is ideal, but you should start to notice a difference by the 4th or 5th tank.


----------



## Andyshine77

spike60 said:


> Well..........it will be Thursday. Yesterday was a rare no UPS delivery day for me, but it will leave today because I have several things coming.
> 
> Hog it into some big wood right from the get-go. Gonna take a several tanks to really wake up; I don't think they're all that quick out of the box compared to when they're broken in. Ten is ideal, but you should start to notice a difference by the 4th or 5th tank.


 
Thanks For the heads up Spike. I was going to ask you about how to run it, 5-10 minutes in a good size log to allow the carb to adjust it's self correct?


----------



## j.williams

any new updates? any new pics of the saw or mm?


----------



## mdavlee

Is it there yet?:msp_biggrin:

The 576 is supposed to be there today. The 441 muffler mod was posted a page back.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> Is it there yet?:msp_biggrin:
> 
> The 576 is supposed to be there today. The 441 muffler mod was posted a page back.


 
it's here!!! UPS man just got done upsetting my dog lol. I'll have pics up soon. One very small issue the outside spike/dog is missing, or do they even come with an outside dog? other than that it sure is a slick looking saw.


----------



## mdavlee

The other 576 I had didn't come with one. I was planning on the big oem ones or a set of 4 point pro safety. I can't wait to see pictures and videos.


----------



## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> it's here!!! UPS man just got done upsetting my dog lol. I'll have pics up soon. One very small issue the outside spike/dog is missing, or do they even come with an outside dog? other than that it sure is a slick looking saw.


 
Awesome Andy! Keep us updated buddy. That saw is in good hands for sure.


----------



## Andyshine77

Pics.


----------



## porsche965

Good pics! Thanks.

I see a ventilated clutch, does that mean it is making so much power more cooling is needed? 

New technology is here to stay.

This should be interesting to say the least.


----------



## wyk

blsnelling said:


> I'm glad you mentioned that. I was so focused on the 441 that I didn't even notice how the 046 compared to the 7900. The 440 and 460 are still my most favorite 70cc saws, with the 372 being right behind.


 
I've always thought the 046mag pulled stronger than the 7900 in the cut.


----------



## Officer's Match

Now its getting exciting...


----------



## Andyshine77

My initial thoughts after looking the saw over are positive. I was told the linkage to the carb was too complex and over engineered. They were wrong, it's no more complex than Stihl's master switch. The 576 has better fit and finish than the 372 and also seems more robust, the mag case and handle mounts in particular. The PTO side is cleaner as you can see in the pics.


----------



## Andyshine77

wyk said:


> I've always thought the 046mag pulled stronger than the 7900 in the cut.


 
Perception. The 7900 simply makes no fuss, it goes about it's business calm, smooth and quiet.


----------



## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> Perception. The 7900 simply makes no fuss, it goes about it's business calm, smooth and quiet.


 
You MIGHTY RIGHT about that Andy. I just made a post the other night about perception. You have to have a clock on something to really know. And the Dolmar's IMO, are the worst to fool ya. I cant say enough about the 7300 Mike and I ran.
It was just so deceivingly strong it was funny.


----------



## Rudolf73

It has an inboard clutch - nice!


----------



## Andyshine77

Rudolf73 said:


> It has an inboard clutch - nice!


 
Only the small Husky saws have outboard clutches.

Few more Pics.

The filter has a nice O ring.


----------



## Rudolf73

Andyshine77 said:


> Only the small Husky saws have outboard clutches.


 
The 395xp and 3120 have outboard clutches don't they...


----------



## Andyshine77

Rudolf73 said:


> The 395xp and 3120 have outboard clutches don't they...


 
You know I think you're right about that, as they're older saws. I was thinking more about the 372, 385/390.


----------



## Andyshine77

Well everyone you'll have to wait until tomorrow or Saturday for the video, I'd do it today, but the sun's going down + I'm beat. Mike thanks again for sending the saw my way, I think I'm really going to like it. :msp_smile:


----------



## Rudolf73

Andyshine77 said:


> You know I think you're right about that, as they're older saws. I was thinking more about the 372, 385/390.


 
Yes I think all their large 'modern' saws now have inboards, which is good because I prefer them when swapping bars over a lot and when the bar gets seriously pinched... not so good with an outboard. 

On another note, what do you think about the ventilated clutch drum - I think some wood chips may find their way in there...


----------



## mdavlee

Your welcome andre. I can't wait to see how it runs. 

The ventilated drum really doesn't get much more stuff behind it than the non slotted.


----------



## blsnelling

Anyone else hear that Andre has skipped the country? He's got two free saws in the last week. I hear he's on his way to Mexico to sell them, lol.


Nice looking 576! Should make a good comparison. Is it 76cc?


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> Your welcome andre. I can't wait to see how it runs.
> 
> The ventilated drum really doesn't get much more stuff behind it than the non slotted.


 
Me too!!!

The vented drum will have 0 effect on the saw, any wood chips will be burnt up like normal. With all the spinning not much will gets in there anyway, a lot of saws have had vented clutches and it's never been an issue, I like it.

Few more pics of the 576 next to the 441. The 576 sure has a tall hat, but it's overall size is a little smaller and more narrow than the 441, but not by much. The 576 is likely a bit lighter as well, both saws are really similar in feel so far, I'll really know when I start cutting.


----------



## mdavlee

73.5 cc if I remember right. I know it needs some larger dawgs and i'll probably end up with a full wrap on it later on.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Anyone else hear that Andre has skipped the country? He's got two free saws in the last week. I hear he's on his way to Mexico to sell them, lol.
> 
> 
> Nice looking 576! Should make a good comparison. Is it 76cc?


 

No habla Ingles.

73.5cc


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> No habla Ingles.
> 
> 73.5cc


 
Tu es loco en la cabaza!!!


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Tu es loco en la cabaza!!!


 
A little yes.


----------



## blsnelling

That's about all I know, so I'll quit now Have you started the 576 yet? Might as well get a couple heat cycles on the piston.


----------



## forestryworks

How will that "new" 441 do with elevation, especially above 8,000ft?


----------



## Andyshine77

I'm not sure that is recommended, if I recall the saw needs to be ran in a good size log for a few minutes to allow the electronic system to set or reset. If you don't do this the saw could run lean, at least that's what I remember reading.


----------



## spike60

Andyshine77 said:


> Thanks For the heads up Spike. I was going to ask you about how to run it, 5-10 minutes in a good size log to allow the carb to adjust it's self correct?


 
Yup, put it to work right away. The 576 doesn't come with an outer dog, although you can see that the side cover has the hole to mount one. (Shares it's side cover with the 372 and 390, other than the silver paint). Along with the vented clutch drum it was part of the weight reduction program from it's porky predecessor, the 575. Another small thing they did was go 1 or 2 MM smaller diameter on the top handle. Every little bit helps I guess. 

One thing that everybody notices with the 576 is that it's super smooth, so I'm interested to hear your opinion on that. Smoothest saw I've ever run.


----------



## Andyshine77

forestryworks said:


> How will that "new" 441 do with elevation, especially above 8,000ft?


 
Should do just fine, the system seems to work extremely well, I expect the same from the 576.


----------



## Andyshine77

spike60 said:


> Yup, put it to work right away. The 576 doesn't come with an outer dog, although you can see that the side cover has the hole to mount one. (Shares it's side cover with the 372 and 390, other than the silver paint). Along with the vented clutch drum it was part of the weight reduction program from it's porky predecessor, the 575. Another small thing they did was go 1 or 2 MM smaller diameter on the top handle. Every little bit helps I guess.
> 
> One thing that everybody notices with the 576 is that it's super smooth, so I'm interested to hear your opinion on that. Smoothest saw I've ever run.


 
That's what I thought thanks.

I felt the 575 I ran was a little smoother than the 441. The smoothest saw I've ever ran to date is the Dolmar 5100, but the 575 and my 362 are very close. I'll be sure to let everyone know.


----------



## albert

blsnelling said:


> That's about all I know, so I'll quit now Have you started the 576 yet? Might as well get a couple heat cycles on the piston.


 
No need for heat cycles, they don't do it at the factory. Do like Spike said put it in some big wood and let er rip


----------



## wyk

Andyshine77 said:


> Perception. The 7900 simply makes no fuss, it goes about it's business calm, smooth and quiet.


 
Empirical observation - side by side comparison. It is a stronger saw - period. The Stihl 046 mag has a wider powerband and cuts faster than the 7900 in bigger wood. The 7900 is a good saw, but it is second to the 046MAG for anything but cookies. 7900 owners are nearly as bad 346xp owners. Especially the ones that use their saws for mostly cookies...


----------



## slangegger

The 441 has no choke? The switch looks to only have an "on" and "off" position? I guess the M-Tronic takes care of all that stuff for you. Is the Husky the same way?


----------



## mdavlee

The 576 has a choke lever there but i'm not sure if you have to pull til it pops or what. Brad commented on how the 441 started but I can't remember what is was. It has 3 settings so i'm guessing no high idle setting.


----------



## MCW

wyk said:


> Empirical observation - side by side comparison. It is a stronger saw - period. The Stihl 046 mag has a wider powerband and cuts faster than the 7900 in bigger wood. *The 7900 is a good saw, but it is second to the 046MAG for anything but cookies.* 7900 owners are nearly as bad 346xp owners. Especially the ones that use their saws for mostly cookies...



I can't believe you said that. You been into the English beer again Wes?


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> The 576 has a choke lever there but i'm not sure if you have to pull til it pops or what. Brad commented on how the 441 started but I can't remember what is was. It has 3 settings so i'm guessing no high idle setting.


 
The 441 has a choke, but you leave it on until the saw starts, you can't flood the saw, that's a big plus for inexperienced users. 

wyk quit assuming I'm simply a cookie cutter, or that I'm bias. Get it through your head, the 7900 is stronger in every circumstance, small bar, large bar, softwood, hardwood it doesn't matter.


I'll be running the 576-AT and making a video of it's first start this evening.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> The 441 has a choke, but you leave it on until the saw starts, you can't flood the saw, that's a big plus for inexperienced users.
> 
> wyk quit assuming I'm simply a cookie cutter, or that I'm bias. Get it through your head, the 7900 is stronger in every circumstance, small bar, large bar, softwood, hardwood it doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> I'll be running the 576-AT and making a video of it's first start this evening.


 
I can't wait to see how it runs. The videos will probably be up when I get to the room.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

blsnelling said:


> Tu es loco en la cabaza!!!


 

You keep it up Brad you're gonna end up looking like Chevytown13 before you know it!!


----------



## mdavlee

Did you run it any this evening?opcorn:


----------



## Andyshine77

Well the 576 has a tank and a half of fuel through it, so far so good. The overall weight and feel is good, but like the 441, it's definitely larger and more bulky than the older 70cc saws. It behaved a bit temperamental the first minute or so, but that was to be expected, as the system sets it's self. I have to say this thing has ample power, I want to say more than the 441, but you know how that goes lol. This thing is extremely smooth, you can hardly tell you're running a saw and that is no joke. 

Here is a video of the first start up. I was going to make some timed cuts, but I ran into a few issue. First it was getting dark, and I forgot to bring the spacers for the Stihl bar. Second the bar tensioner stud is too large for the hole in the Stihl bar. Tomorrow I'll get with Nik, he has a universal 28" bar I can use, I'll make a few timed cuts just for fun, as I plan on running the 576 more to break it in for a real comparison.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B1D4fBavdpI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Someone who owns a 372xt needs to be forced to donate it for this thread.


----------



## Philbert

Thanks Andy!

Philbert


----------



## the westspartan

Looking good Andre! I am interested to see how much it gains with break-in. I have a run a 575 a few times and the 576 AT only once. I wasn't overly impressed with the power of the 576 compared to a stock 441 (non-M-tronic) it didn't seem as strong in 20" +- wood. It was a real nice running saw and super smooth, but just didn't seem to have the grunt I expected. It was pretty new, so that may have been the issue. I'll be watching for the comparison.


----------



## Andyshine77

One more thing of note, I'm a firewood cutter, and the only thing the wrap or half wrap handle does is get in the way. Now don't get on me if you like wrap handles, I can see how fallers need them, they're just not for me.


----------



## blsnelling

How's the throttle response? BTW, you've already put as much fuel through the 576 as the 441 has had.


----------



## Andyshine77

the westspartan said:


> Looking good Andre! I am interested to see how much it gains with break-in. I have a run a 575 a few times and the 576 AT only once. I wasn't overly impressed with the power of the 576 compared to a stock 441 (non-M-tronic) it didn't seem as strong in 20" +- wood. It was a real nice running saw and super smooth, but just didn't seem to have the grunt I expected. It was pretty new, so that may have been the issue. I'll be watching for the comparison.


 
Hi Dan good to hear from you.

At this point I feel the 567 has at least as much bottom end power as the 441, but I could very well be wrong. In the video I was really leaning on her and she loved every minute of it.


----------



## Anthony_Va.

Looks like it's running pretty good to be so new. I like it. I like the 441 too. I would proudly own either one of them. 

Ibet they run really close together too. 

What kind of wood are you cutting in the vid Andre?


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> How's the throttle response? BTW, you've already put as much fuel through the 576 as the 441 has had.


 
Watch the video you idiot.:msp_wink: I've ran the 441 more than that by a long shot, about a gallon now.


----------



## Andyshine77

Anthony_Va. said:


> Looks like it's running pretty good to be so new. I like it. I like the 441 too. I would proudly own either one of them.
> 
> Ibet they run really close together too.
> 
> What kind of wood are you cutting in the vid Andre?


 
Basswood, It's one the softest woods we have around here, but this piece is harder than normal. The comparison will be done in that very log, so it will make for a better test. Basswood grows straight, even and has few knots, it makes great test wood.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Watch the video you idiot.:msp_wink: I've ran the 441 more than that by a long shot, about a gallon now.


 
Hey, listen here you punk............:hmm3grin2orange:

I thought it looked like the 576 had sluggish throttle response. When in the world did you put a gallon of fuel through the 441? Must have been busy this week


----------



## the westspartan

Let me just throw this out there. Instead of the typical chainsaw comparisons of which one cuts faster, I propose a series of events that test the various merits of these saws other than just power.

1. Take the saws to the mall and have fashionable young ladies vote on which one is the prettiest.
2. Test the fuel efficiency by fueling both saws all the way up, starting them and letting them rip at WOT until one runs out of gas.
3. Test the oil flinging ability by stretching a clean roll of white paper across the drive way and seeing which can spray the longest rooster tail of B&C oil.
4. Noodle test.
5. Test the coolness level of the sound by running them at 5:00 AM tomorrow out in the front yard. See how many thumbs up verses middle fingers each saw gets from the neighbors.
6. Blind "taste" test.
7. Wrap the whole thing up by both Andy and Brad donning full body PPE and strapping 36" B&Cs on the saws and having a sword fight, first saw to stop for what ever reason is the loser.

Just an idea!


----------



## Anthony_Va.

Andyshine77 said:


> Basswood, It's one the softest woods we have around here, but this piece is harder than normal. The comparison will be done in that very log, so it will make for a better test. Basswood grows straight, even and has few knots, it makes great test wood.


 
Oh ok. My shop teacher used to carve birds and things out of basswood. I remember how soft and easy to cut it was. Should make for a level playing field. Poplar seems to be about the same as that. Hardly any knots and very straight. 
Thanks for the work bud.


----------



## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> Hey, listen here you punk............:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I thought it looked like the 576 had sluggish throttle response. When in the world did you put a gallon of fuel through the 441? Must have been busy this week


 
he's just lookin for an excuse. Damn Husky fanboy.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Hey, listen here you punk............:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I thought it looked like the 576 had sluggish throttle response. When in the world did you put a gallon of fuel through the 441? Must have been busy this week


 
I ran it a few times the other day, I want to do the same with the 576. No the throttle response is not on par with the 441, but it improved greatly as I ran the saw. Don't forget a MM not only helps, but also changes the sound.


----------



## the westspartan

Andyshine77 said:


> Hi Dan good to hear from you.
> 
> At this point I feel the 567 has at least as much bottom end power as the 441, but I could very well be wrong. In the video I was really leaning on her and she loved every minute of it.


 
My experience was far from scientific! It was at a GTG just goofing around. We didn't time any cuts, it just seemed a lot easier to stop the chain in the cut on the 576 than the 441. However, they had different chains and, like I said the 576 was new, the 441 was a few months old at the time. It will be interesting to see some back to back comparisons from a unbiased tester.


----------



## Andyshine77

the westspartan said:


> My experience was far from scientific! It was at a GTG just goofing around. We didn't time any cuts, it just seemed a lot easier to stop the chain in the cut on the 576 than the 441. However, they had different chains and, like I said the 576 was new, the 441 was a few months old at the time. It will be interesting to see some back to back comparisons from a unbiased tester.


 
Hahaha I like some of the above test suggestions.

I have a feeling it will be so close it will be almost pointless, but hey it's fun.


----------



## Andyshine77

Now lets open a can of worms here. Other than the numbers the manufactures put in their literature, has anyone actually tested the fuel efficiency of strato engines?? I'm starting to think the numbers are inflated, we already know the weight numbers are off.opcorn:


----------



## blsnelling

the westspartan said:


> Let me just throw this out there. Instead of the typical chainsaw comparisons of which one cuts faster, I propose a series of events that test the various merits of these saws other than just power.
> 
> 1. Take the saws to the mall and have fashionable young ladies vote on which one is the prettiest.
> 2. Test the fuel efficiency by fueling both saws all the way up, starting them and letting them rip at WOT until one runs out of gas.
> 3. Test the oil flinging ability by stretching a clean roll of white paper across the drive way and seeing which can spray the longest rooster tail of B&C oil.
> 4. Noodle test.
> 5. Test the coolness level of the sound by running them at 5:00 AM tomorrow out in the front yard. See how many thumbs up verses middle fingers each saw gets from the neighbors.
> 6. Blind "taste" test.
> 7. Wrap the whole thing up by both Andy and Brad donning full body PPE and strapping 36" B&Cs on the saws and having a sword fight, first saw to stop for what ever reason is the loser.
> 
> Just an idea!


 
I think you've been hanging around Jason too much, lol


----------



## Andyshine77

Brad what say you about the fuel efficiency? Other than the AutoTune models, every new strato saw I've ran came screaming lean from the factory, maybe that plays a part in the numbers they come up with.


----------



## young

Andy,

you got a scale to weight the two saws?


----------



## Andyshine77

young said:


> Andy,
> 
> you got a scale to weight the two saws?


 
I'll come up with one here soon.


----------



## mdavlee

It sounds good and looks pretty strong for the first tank. I guess we'll find out which is stronger with some timed cuts.


----------



## the westspartan

blsnelling said:


> I think you've been hanging around Jason too much, lol


 
Hey that's how we test them up here! Sometimes we even have an evening wear competition. We think of it as more of a "pageant". LOL:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## forestryworks

Andyshine77 said:


> the only thing the wrap or half wrap handle does is get in the way.


 
Well which is it? The wrap handle or the half wrap?  Two different handles there...


----------



## wyk

Andyshine77 said:


> The 441 has a choke, but you leave it on until the saw starts, you can't flood the saw, that's a big plus for inexperienced users.
> 
> wyk quit assuming I'm simply a cookie cutter, or that I'm bias. Get it through your head, the 7900 is stronger in every circumstance, small bar, large bar, softwood, hardwood it doesn't matter.
> 
> 
> I'll be running the 576-AT and making a video of it's first start this evening.


 
Have you ever ran an 046mag? That's a rhetorical question, as you would have a different opinion if you had. Adding to this the fact the 7900 weighs about the same as an 046, and the only reason to get a 7900 is for the AV mounts(even if they have been known to fail). 

You said in a previous post you mainly cut cookies. I believed you then. What's changed?


----------



## Philbert

the westspartan said:


> Let me just throw this out there. Instead of the typical chainsaw comparisons of which one cuts faster, I propose a series of events that test the various merits of these saws other than just power.


 
Don't forget the swimsuit competition!


(Philbert)


----------



## mdavlee

I bet the weight will be pretty close on the 2. I weighed the other 576 and it was a little over 15 lbs.

I owned a couple 460s one for several years and the 7900 I bought was stronger and smoother. It was what brought me to the decision to sell the 460s and actually all the stihls I had then. The 660 is the flagship for stihl and really the only one I think that has something over other brands.


----------



## blsnelling

*046*
11.34
14.04
One cut was lost because I cut out.

*7900*
10.93 
11.05
11.78
12.17

Remember, these cuts weren't all made for fastest cut times, but to demonstrate the power band of the saw. The fastest cut times are with a significant load on the saw. You'll notice that the 046 is only 0.41 second behind the 7900, but behind never the less. Additionally, the 046 is very broken in and has a modded muffler. The 7900 is bone stock and not been used that much. Both are great saws, but arguement about which is fastest is a moot point.


----------



## Andyshine77

forestryworks said:


> Well which is it? The wrap handle or the half wrap?  Two different handles there...


 
You are correct. What I meant to say was the 3/4 wrap Stihl offers and full wrap others use..:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## Andyshine77

OK well I timed both saws in the same log with the same chain. I don't know how much of a factor it is, but the spacers for the bar I'm using do not fit correctly, so I couldn't tighten the bar down correctly. Because of this the B&C was moving around a bit and it wasn't getting near enough oil.

Nevertheless here are the times. The 576 simply does not have the RPM to cut with the 441. This could change in time but the 576 has a long way to go. 

441.

13.86
13.83
13.52

576.
15.04
15.47
15.41

Remember these are just cut times, both saws are a pleasure to run and even though the 576 isn't as fast at this point, I feel the 576 has plenty of grunt.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7LWq5_9UoYU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## FATGUY

what do you mean they don't fit correctly? I know the guy who made them. They work fine on the 7900....


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> what do you mean they don't fit correctly? I know the guy who made them. They work fine on the 7900....


 
I think it has to do with the studs on the 576, yes they work great on the 7900.


----------



## mdavlee

Well I thought it might be closer than that. The 441 is about 10% faster than the 576 right now.


----------



## FATGUY

it's probably not, we'll work out the bugs...


----------



## albert

How does the 576 react if you lean on it? I know the 441cm responds with "more power" I would be nice let both saws fully run in to their full potential and then compare.


----------



## TK

Andyshine77 said:


> Now lets open a can of worms here. Other than the numbers the manufactures put in their literature, has anyone actually tested the fuel efficiency of strato engines?? I'm starting to think the numbers are inflated, we already know the weight numbers are off.opcorn:


 
This isn't a comparison between the above mentioned saws, but a similar combination. I did some cutting this morning with a buddy, I ran my 365sp with a MM and he ran his 570 stock. I was running an 18" bar to his 24" bar. The wood was 3+ feet in diameter. The 570 made far more cuts than my 365 on a tank of fuel.


----------



## albert

The strato saw are more thrifty on fuel. The regular MS441 will use way less fuel than a stock MS460. IIRC the MS460 holds a few oz's more than a MS660. The MS 460 is one thirsty saw. It's a good thing it's such a good performer


----------



## blsnelling

The 7900 is different than the Husky mount. You have to mod Bailey's adapter to work on a 7900.

Have you modded the muffler on the 576? That's likely some of the difference.


----------



## spike60

The 576 has more potential and should catch up after some more break in time. They're really not all that impressive out of the box. 

Anybody notice that we are enjoying two saws that nobody gave a hoot about two years ago? They were two of those "new fangled" strato saws that we didn't like, remember?


----------



## Officer's Match

Yeah, I have been anxiously awaiting just this very comparison. I wonder which will get the most benefit out of porting? Since the 576 already has the grunt, I'm thinking more rpm's will make it interesting...


----------



## blsnelling

By the same token, similar is said about the 441 as well. I think someone said 10-15 tanks.


----------



## mdavlee

I think the new technology on these saws is pretty nice. I cut from 500ft to around 3500ft and at the higher places the saws run real rich if not retuned. This 576 will take care of that now.


----------



## Philbert

spike60 said:


> Anybody notice that we are enjoying two saws that nobody gave a hoot about two years ago? They were two of those "new fangled" strato saws that we didn't like, remember?



Didn't have AutoTune / M-Tronic 2 years ago.

Philbert


----------



## mdavlee

Philbert said:


> Didn't have AutoTune / M-Tronic 2 years ago.
> 
> Philbert


 
The 441 and 576 have been around that long but not with the electronic versions.


----------



## spike60

Philbert said:


> Didn't have AutoTune / M-Tronic 2 years ago.
> 
> Philbert



Actually the 576AT was out two years ago. But the 575 was still on peoples minds, and it's taken a while for the 576AT to distance itself from that "legacy".


----------



## Officer's Match

I gotta' think a 390XP in AutoTune or a MS660 in M-Tronic would be oh so sweet...


----------



## mdavlee

I heard some of the 661s being tested had the m tronic. Who knows what all saws will end up with the systems.


----------



## albert

spike60 said:


> The 576 has more potential and should catch up after some more break in time. They're really not all that impressive out of the box.
> 
> Anybody notice that we are enjoying two saws that nobody gave a hoot about two years ago? They were two of those "new fangled" strato saws that we didn't like, remember?


 
I agree, I think the break in process is alittle more envolved on these "smart" saws due to the electronics adapting to constantly changing mechanical aspecst of breaking in. I think 15 tanks or so would be normal break in on these saws.


----------



## Andyshine77

albert said:


> I agree, I think the break in process is alittle more envolved on these "smart" saws due to the electronics adapting to constantly changing mechanical aspecst of breaking in. I think 15 tanks or so would be normal break in on these saws.


 
You may be right. The 441 is getting ample fuel at all times, if you lift up on it she will four stroke right now. The 576 on the other hand, well I'm not really liking the tune so far, seems a bit lean IMHO, it surly doesn't seem to adjust the tuning on the fly like the 441.


----------



## Andyshine77

albert said:


> How does the 576 react if you lean on it? I know the 441cm responds with "more power" I would be nice let both saws fully run in to their full potential and then compare.


 
Well it does fine, but it doesn't feel like it's shifting gears like the 441. This could mean two things. One the 441 has a better faster adjusting system, or the 576 system is more refined and it's harder to feel the change.


----------



## Andyshine77

TK POWER said:


> This isn't a comparison between the above mentioned saws, but a similar combination. I did some cutting this morning with a buddy, I ran my 365sp with a MM and he ran his 570 stock. I was running an 18" bar to his 24" bar. The wood was 3+ feet in diameter. The 570 made far more cuts than my 365 on a tank of fuel.


 
TK I hear what you're saying, but let me ask you this. Has the carb on the 570 been tuned since it was purchased? I ask because I've seen no difference between the two auto tune saw I have here right now and my 7900. The two strato saws that I personally own were extremely lean out of the box, this may have more to do with the fuel savings than the saw being strato charged.

Now what do you all say about me running my stock 7900 in the same log as the 441 and 576? or should I keep this purely between the 441 and 576?


----------



## albert

Andyshine77 said:


> Well it does fine, but it doesn't feel like it's shifting gears like the 441. This could mean two things. One the 441 has a better faster adjusting system, or the 576 system is more refined and it's harder to feel the change.


 
I hear ya, but when dogged, it in does it hold the rpms as well as the 441cm? My guess is that it would "learn" better if you put a moderate load on it while breaking in. It may not "learn" as well or as quickly if most cuts are made with no or little presure applied. Just my 2 cents, not claiming to be an expert on the matter.


----------



## Andyshine77

albert said:


> I hear ya, but when dogged, it in does it hold the rpms as well as the 441cm? My guess is that it would "learn" better if you put a moderate load on it while breaking in. It may not "learn" as well or as quickly if most cuts are made with no or little presure applied. Just my 2 cents, not claiming to be an expert on the matter.


 
My understanding is the 576 should be ran under heavy load for the first five minutes or it wouldn't reset the system, and this would cause the system to not run properly. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/117653.htm


----------



## young

is the 046 still in the mix? or is that back with brad?

7900 vs 441cm vs 576at vs 046. DO IT!


----------



## Justsaws

Andyshine77 said:


> My understanding is the 576 should be ran under heavy load for the first five minutes or it wouldn't reset the system, and this would cause the system to not run properly. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/117653.htm


 
The 576AT has been out for two years? I think I have seen 1. Seen lots of the 57? saws in need of serious repair but I think I have only seen 1 AT. I will ask the company that is running the 57?s if they have any ATs in service, they run lots of Husq and beat the piss out of them. 

Never really thought about it but Spike's post makes me think that they are holding up well or the first few crapped out fast and they were placed on the DNBL.


----------



## albert

Andyshine77 said:


> My understanding is the 576 should be ran under heavy load for the first five minutes or it wouldn't reset the system, and this would cause the system to not run properly. http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/117653.htm


 
Thanks for the link, don't rememberb seeing it.


----------



## Andyshine77

young said:


> is the 046 still in the mix? or is that back with brad?
> 
> 7900 vs 441cm vs 576at vs 046. DO IT!


 

The 046 is Brad's dad's saw so that is out for now. I know some get a little bent out of shape when I compare the 7900 to other 70cc saw, but it fits in as far as weight goes. To be honest we already know the 7900 will come out on top, but hay this is for fun and I think everyone likes looking forward to a new video everyday.


----------



## young

Andyshine77 said:


> The 046 is Brad's dad's saw so that is out for now. I know some get a little bent out of shape when I compare the 7900 to other 70cc saw, but it fits in as far as weight goes. To be honest we already know the 7900 will come out on top, but hay this is for fun and I think everyone likes looking forward to a new video everyday.


 
....and same price range, well less for the 7900. 

new videos yay!


----------



## BlackAdder

Has the 576 been muff modded?


----------



## Andyshine77

BlackAdder said:


> Has the 576 been muff modded?


 
No, and it won't be. How much would it gain I don't know.


----------



## Philbert

spike60 said:


> Actually the 576AT was out two years ago.


 
I stand corrected - thanks. I thought that they were just in the conceptual/development stage until recently.

Philbert


----------



## mdavlee

The 576 might end up muffler modded but I want to run it bone stock first. I was thinking it might be nice to have one saw that's not super loud.


----------



## FATGUY

*a fat cookie cutters musings....*

I had the pleasure of running both the 441 and the 576 tonight. Well all I can say is Holy ####, these saws rock!!!! I want you all to understand that I lean towards Stihl BUT that only goes so far. The 576 is smoother by a long shot. I was a little dismayed as the 441 did not feel like the other 441's I ran. Now, IMHO, the 441 has more ass and has a more "interactive" engine managment system. You can feel it trying to please you. The Husky's getting there. It was nice to hear it finally 4 stroke. I'd like to see the 441 with the normal handle and springs and the 576 with a few more hours on her. Either way Gentlemen, you won't be let down.


----------



## FATGUY

I forgot to add that I LOVE the Husky's O-ring air filter and rubber oil delivery. I could do with out the top cover that looks like a hard-on though....


----------



## mdavlee

FATGUY said:


> I forgot to add that I LOVE the Husky's O-ring air filter and rubber oil delivery. I could do with out the top cover that looks like a hard-on though....


 
Coming from a guy that like the dolmak hd filters.:msp_wink: 

I do think it looks a little funny but I do like the one piece top.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> Coming from a guy that like the dolmak hd filters.:msp_wink:
> 
> I do think it looks a little funny but I do like the one piece top.


 
Myself and and Nik agreed that having a one piece cover is a plus.. 

I have the video from today processing right now, it's a long video so it's going to take about 30 minutes.


----------



## MacLaren

Come on Andy, ya gotta run the Dolmar w/these bad boys!


----------



## FATGUY

MacLaren said:


> Come on Andy, ya gotta run the Dolmar w/these bad boys!


 
Not really fair to, we could've run my Dolkita but left it at the shop. The 7900 is no more a 70cc saw than my 361 is a 50cc saw. However, this may not be the case for long. This technology is here to stay.... These saws are on the ground floor.


----------



## FATGUY

Holy crap Andre, hurry up with the vids, my ####en knee is killing me and I wanna get to bed!:msp_angry::msp_angry:


----------



## Andyshine77

OK here is the video, I messed up the editing a little in my haste, they're a few clips that are too dark, I'll clean the video up later.

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/C5eJPv-aMlA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## young

Andyshine77 said:


> Myself and and Nik agreed that having a one piece cover is a plus..
> 
> I have the video from today processing right now, it's a long video so it's going to take about 30 minutes.


 
so there isnt a low top cover for the 576?


----------



## albert

FATGUY said:


> I had the pleasure of running both the 441 and the 576 tonight. Well all I can say is Holy ####, these saws rock!!!! I want you all to understand that I lean towards Stihl BUT that only goes so far. The 576 is smoother by a long shot.


 Doesn't the 441 have the heavier av springs? It might be closer to the 576 with the standard ones.


----------



## Andyshine77

young said:


> so there isnt a low top cover for the 576?


 
I think there is, but function is more important IMHO.


----------



## young

Andyshine77 said:


> I think there is, but function is more important IMHO.


 
MORE AIR!!!!!! hahaha


----------



## FATGUY

albert said:


> Doesn't the 441 have the heavier av springs? It might be closer to the 576 with the standard ones.


 no way would a novice cookie cutter like me buy it with the heavier springs. Now, it has been brought to my attention by a VERY reputabile source, that once modded, the 441 would benifit from the stiffer springs....


----------



## albert

I probaly missed it, but what bar mount are you adapting to the 576, Stihl?


----------



## FATGUY

I knocked off some spacers with the Stihl bar stud OD that fit over the Husky bar studs. 



BTW, I want to mention that the last cuts I made with the 576 were not fast time cuts. I was just thrilled to finally hear the darn thing 4 stroking, which it clearly was doing,


----------



## FATGUY

As saw lovers, I think the worst thing that can happen in a comparison like this is a clear cut winner. As consumers, we all benifit from manufactureres NOT resting on their laurels.


----------



## MacLaren

I just cant help but think that big Husqvarna will really come to life after a fwew more tanks in her. Suffice it to say, I was pretty surprised at the results so far.


----------



## albert

Andy, how many tanks run on the saws? Both saws a top quality. It seems that the Stihl system greater control of operation. The Husky seems more like Stihls IEM like on the ms280. Does the Husky control timing like the motronic on the 441


----------



## FATGUY

She very well may be a late bloomer, but it seems, still has a ways to go. Like I said, it was thrilling to finally hear it 4 stroke. For whatever reason, it's not as distinct in the video as it was in real life but I wa reveling in it.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> As saw lovers, I think the worst thing that can happen in a comparison like this is a clear cut winner. As consumers, we all benifit from manufactureres NOT resting on their laurels.


 
No doubt about that.

Most of the cuts were made just for fun. I did just time a few of the cuts I did for time, and the 576 seems to have made quite a recovery. The bar not mounting correctly must have made a serous impact on performance. The first cuts I made for timing with the 576 was 17.00 the 441 ran 16.56 that's .04 of a second. :msp_thumbsup: Both were the fastest cuts for each saw BTW.


----------



## FATGUY

Andyshine77 said:


> No doubt about that.
> 
> Most of the cuts were made just for fun. I did just time a few of the cuts I did for time, and the 576 seems to have made quite a recovery. The bar not mounting must have made a serous impact on performance. The first cuts I made for timing with the 576 was 17.00 the 441 ran 16.56 that's .04 of a second. :msp_thumbsup: Both were the fastest cuts for each saw BTW.


 
Actually, that's .44 but who's counting, very impressive considering the 576 is still choked up.


----------



## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> No doubt about that.
> 
> Most of the cuts were made just for fun. I did just time a few of the cuts I did for time, and the 576 seems to have made quite a recovery. The bar not mounting must have made a serous impact on performance. The first cuts I made for timing with the 576 was 17.00 the 441 ran 16.56 that's .04 of a second. :msp_thumbsup: Both were the fastest cuts for each saw BTW.


 
Good job Andy. Thanks for taking the time to do this for us all.


----------



## FATGUY

well a few beers and a bunch of Aleve and my knee's back to normal, nighty-night gentlemen.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> well a few beers and a bunch of Aleve and my knee's back to normal, nighty-night gentlemen.


 
Great to hear Nik!!


----------



## Andyshine77

young said:


> MORE AIR!!!!!! hahaha


 
Yes, plus better air filter and filter mount.


----------



## Officer's Match

Well, this just keeps getting interesting_er_.

:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## mdavlee

Well that's good the 576 iis catching up with the 441. They both probably need 2-3 gallons to get close to broke in.


----------



## FATGUY

It'd also be interesting to see how it performs with a mufler mod.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> Actually, that's .44 but who's counting, very impressive considering the 576 is still choked up.


 
Nice try Andre

What was the fastest 361 cut time?


----------



## GA_Boy

blsnelling said:


> Have you modded the muffler on the 576? That's likely some of the difference.


 
You took the words out of my mouth.


----------



## the westspartan

In the name of science, you boys need to come up with a spare muffler to mod for the 576. You could also find someone with an already modded muffler to borrow for a few cuts. 

A.S. should offer research grants that you could apply for to facilitate this kind of information and learning.


----------



## MacLaren

the westspartan said:


> In the name of science, you boys need to come up with a spare muffler to mod for the 576. You could also find someone with an already modded muffler to borrow for a few cuts.
> 
> A.S. should offer research grants that you could apply for to facilitate this kind of information and learning.


 
I think your on to something big!  I agree 200%!


----------



## mdavlee

I know the other 576 I sold has a muffler mod. I wonder how much a muffler costs?


----------



## blsnelling

Does the 575 use the same muffler? I have the left over parts from one I scrapped. I don't know that I ever had a muffler for it though. I'll look tonight, although bit very hopeful.


----------



## mingo

blsnelling said:


> Does the 575 use the same muffler? I have the left over parts from one I scrapped. I don't know that I ever had a muffler for it though. I'll look tonight, although bit very hopeful.


 
I have a 575 muffler it looks the same to me. Has a larger baffle the the 372.


----------



## MacLaren

Just my opinion guys, but I really appreciate Brad and Mike making this happen. I know I will rep both of them ASAP soon as i get a chance. I hope all will/can do the same. Same should also go for Andre and Nik as well. Thanks guys! This (to me anyways) is a big reason AS is a lot of fun!


----------



## Officer's Match

I know I'll be hated for this, but would the AutoTune get "confused" if it adjust to the freer muffler only to be choked up later with the stocker?


----------



## GA_Boy

mdavlee said:


> The 576 might end up muffler modded but I want to run it bone stock first. I was thinking it might be nice to have one saw that's not super loud.


 
C'mon man, we needs some Husky representation here dude. Besides, quite saws are for sissies.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*Hi Andy and thanks for the pic of m-tronic muffler mod.*



Andyshine77 said:


> The 046 Isn't bad for an old school saw, it's no 7900 by a long shot, jab but not bad. Remember not every cut was made for simply the fastest time. All cuts were shown slow and fast, the only one not in the vid is the one where I cut out.
> 
> I'll let you all know as soon as the saw arrives, pics and video will fallow shortly after.
> 
> Mike I tried to return you call I got your VM, again feel free to call.
> 
> Someone asked for a MM pic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOT


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*Hi Andy and thanks for the pic of the m-tronic muffler mod.*



Andyshine77 said:


> The 046 Isn't bad for an old school saw, it's no 7900 by a long shot, jab but not bad. Remember not every cut was made for simply the fastest time. All cuts were shown slow and fast, the only one not in the vid is the one where I cut out.
> 
> I'll let you all know as soon as the saw arrives, pics and video will fallow shortly after.
> 
> Mike I tried to return you call I got your VM, again feel free to call.
> 
> Someone asked for a MM pic.


 
I see now that it is a "full" spark-arrester muffler and that it has needed a "bit of surgery!". In the uk we just have a open round outlet - no spark arrester - about 18mm in dia. I total, it is now 23mm but more bias to the width than hight and after the usual stop/start and five consectutive cuts it is a different saw and getting stronger per tank. This particular saw runs a stihl ematic 25" bar and 3/8 RSC standard chain sawing 2year old fallen beech. We will see how things go as to mod the others as this is now "out of warrenty!. Thanks. Jon


----------



## mdavlee

GA_Boy said:


> C'mon man, we needs some Husky representation here dude. Besides, quite saws are for sissies.


 
Yeah well it seems like it has caught up with it pretty good the way it is. If someone wants to send a muffler to them be my guest.


----------



## epicklein22

I have both a 575 and 576 at the moment. The mufflers look the same to me. Really, they share almost all the same parts.

Damn PTO side of the 575 case is hogged out. Otherwise, I would have liked to run both back to back. 

Kinda funny, but I'm jammed with 70cc saws at the moment. 046, 2 7900's, 3 372's, 2171, 575, and a 576. Love it.


----------



## blsnelling

The 575 I have here was absolutely destroyed, unlike any other newer saw I've ever seen. Even the stuffers on the crank were falling off. Were there issues with the 575 that have been since upgrade?


----------



## mingo

blsnelling said:


> The 575 I have here was absolutely destroyed, unlike any other newer saw I've ever seen. Even the stuffers on the crank were falling off. Were there issues with the 575 that have been since upgrade?


 
The early ones had crank issues which they later corrected. I had one of the early ones.


----------



## mingo

The baffle in the 575 angles down from the top has 4 holes that look about 3/8" in each corner. The numbers stamped on the side are different than the 576 but they look identical.


----------



## j.williams

sux that the 441 has a crimped on front cover and is kinda a pita to mm compared to others. i'm modding mine this week and thinking about cutting a port out of the front on the bottom left corner at a 45 and welding it on.


----------



## Andyshine77

If Brad has a muffler to use that's fine, but the 576 is on the heels of the 441 now anyway, so all I really need to do is find the time to run them a bit more.

Brad the fastest time the 361 cut was 23.47 with a chain that was getting pretty dull from cutting that Hickory.


----------



## porsche965

*Automatic*

Took a quick trip to Ohio and got to cut wood with the 441C. It acted just like it came out of the box new, sorting itself and a bit eratic. Where I go is 1050 ft. elevation. Savannah is at Sea Level. After 1/2 a minute and a couple of cuts she settled right down and went about business as usual. Smooth, strong, and predictable.

Upon returning to Savannah, Sea Level, I got to cut today and the same exact thing happened. It is really amazing to watch and feel the saw adjust itself to different elevations. Using the standard carb chainsaws I always have to take a bit of time to re-tune them for their environment. Not any more.

Seems like whenever I get to cut, which isn't enough because of where I live, or where I go the 441C is the choice. (Right now...) The only things that change are the bars from 20" to 28". People say the 60cc segment is a good one saw plan, well a good 70cc saw is a great one saw plan as well IMO.


----------



## MacLaren

porsche965 said:


> Took a quick trip to Ohio and got to cut wood with the 441C. It acted just like it came out of the box new, sorting itself and a bit eratic. Where I go is 1050 ft. elevation. Savannah is at Sea Level. After 1/2 a minute and a couple of cuts she settled right down and went about business as usual. Smooth, strong, and predictable.
> 
> Upon returning to Savannah, Sea Level, I got to cut today and the same exact thing happened. It is really amazing to watch and feel the saw adjust itself to different elevations. Using the standard carb chainsaws I always have to take a bit of time to re-tune them for their environment. Not any more.
> 
> Seems like whenever I get to cut, which isn't enough because of where I live, or where I go the 441C is the choice. (Right now...) The only things that change are the bars from 20" to 28". People say the 60cc segment is a good one saw plan, well a good 70cc saw is a great one saw plan as well IMO.


 
That really is amazing John. I mean a chainsaw that can automatically change to suit its environs. Remarkable.


----------



## young

fyi: the 575 muffler is the same muffler as the one on the 576. 

575 muffler part number supersedes to the 576 number.

also did you know that there was a 575 autotune. thats way back in 2007-2008.


----------



## albert

The technology on the 441cm is amazing. When you break it down, it is really that complicated. Does anyone have the shop manual or tech sheet for the 576 Auto Tune, like what Brad posted for the 441cm. I'm currious about how it operates and what functions it controls, thanks


----------



## TK

Since the muffler is the same amongst the 570, 575, and 576 - they could definitely use a little opening up. It couldn't have been any larger than 1/2", 5/8" at the most in diameter, funnel shaped into the muffler.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> The 046 Isn't bad for an old school saw, it's no 7900 by a long shot, jab but not bad.


 
Andre, I've got to address this comment. Not a 7900 by a long shot? I beg to differ with you. It's right on the heals of the 7900. It's a tried and true, proven runner. What's not to like? And don't give me this AV and filtration rhetoric. I ain't buyin' it. The vibes on Stihl saws have never been an issue to many, and the same with the filtration.otstir:


----------



## Terry Syd

Stumphusky put a degree wheel on a 576 in this thread - http://www.arboristsite.com/stickies/177311.htm

With only 11 degrees of blowdown, the muffler mod needs to fairly generous to drop that pressure as quickly as possible.


----------



## blsnelling

Terry Syd said:


> Stumphusky put a degree wheel on a 576 in this thread - http://www.arboristsite.com/stickies/177311.htm
> 
> With only 11 degrees of blowdown, the muffler mod needs to fairly generous to drop that pressure as quickly as possible.


 
11°? Wow! BTW, all the pics are broken in that thread. Hard to make out much without them.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Andre, I've got to address this comment. Not a 7900 by a long shot? I beg to differ with you. It's right on the heals of the 7900. It's a tried and true, proven runner. What's not to like? And don't give me this AV and filtration rhetoric. I ain't buyin' it. The vibes on Stihl saws have never been an issue to many, and the same with the filtration.otstir:


 
Having a bad day there Brad?? Not happy about the 576 running with the 441? Everything you said about the 460 can be said about the 7900 + it has better AV, power, price and so on. Really? you know better, you've done testing with me. The 460 is a fine saw, but it has nothing on a 7900 period. I know it's one or your favorite saw, so I understand how how you feel, but don't keep whining about it like the other guys, the facts are the facts.... no matter how much you like a saw.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Having a bad day there Brad?? Not happy about the 576 running with the 441? Everything you said about the 460 can be said about the 7900 + it has better AV, power, price and so on. Really? you know better, you've done testing with me. The 460 is a fine saw, but it has nothing on a 7900 period. I know it's one or your favorite saw, so I understand how how you feel, but don't keep whining about it like the other guys, the facts are the facts.... no matter how much you like a saw.


 
Whiner schminer, you're so original, lol. It's about time you showed up! Not a bad day at all, just a big grin on my face Seems like you're back peddling a good bit here. You started out in your initial post saying "it's not a 7900 by a long shot". Now it simply "doesn't have anything on a 7900" Besides, you can't call the 046 an AMC Pacer either:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Whiner schminer, you're so original, lol. It's about time you showed up! Not a bad day at all, just a big grin on my face Seems like you're back peddling a good bit here. You started out in your initial post saying "it's not a 7900 by a long shot". Now it simply "doesn't have anything on a 7900" Besides, you can't call the 046 an AMC Pacer either:hmm3grin2orange:


 
Sometimes I think you fight more with yourself than anyone else.:msp_unsure:


----------



## young

blsnelling said:


> 11°? Wow! BTW, all the pics are broken in that thread. Hard to make out much without them.


 
fixed links here

http://www.arboristsite.com/stickies/177311-4.htm#post3127186

http://www.arboristsite.com/stickies/177311-4.htm#post3127188


----------



## young

Andyshine77 said:


> ......Everything you said about the 460 can be said about the 7900 + it has better AV, power, price and so on. Really? you know better, you've done testing with me. The 460 is a fine saw, but it has nothing on a 7900 period. I know it's one or your favorite saw, so I understand how how you feel, but don't keep whining about it like the other guys, the facts are the facts.... no matter how much you like a saw.


 
well well the 460 is a prettier saw, yea how about that :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Sometimes I think you fight more with yourself than anyone else.:msp_unsure:


 
Oh, come on now. Don't get cranky on me:jester:


----------



## mdavlee

young said:


> well well the 460 is a prettier saw, yea how about that :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


 
Well that and the 3/4 wrap handle is all its got on one.otstir:

opcorn:


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Oh, come on now. Don't get cranky on me:jester:


 
:tongue2::tongue2::tongue2::jester::msp_tongue:


----------



## young

mdavlee said:


> Well that and the 3/4 wrap handle is all its got on one.otstir:
> 
> opcorn:


 
funny you should day that. i really like the dolmar full wrap. too bad it cost an arm and a leg now.:frown::frown:


----------



## Andyshine77

young said:


> funny you should day that. i really like the dolmar full wrap. too bad it cost an arm and a leg now.:frown::frown:


 
I've only seen pics of the Dolmar full wrap and the look functional, but odd, so I guess it fits the saw just right.


----------



## parrisw

If I didn't know any better I'd say Brad and Andy are married. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



PS, I agree with you Andy, about the 7900/460 thing.


----------



## Andyshine77

parrisw said:


> If I didn't know any better I'd say Brad and Andy are married. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> 
> 
> PS, I agree with you Andy, about the 7900/460 thing.


 
Ahahahahahahahaha. The 7900 rules!!


----------



## young

Andyshine77 said:


> Ahahahahahahahaha. The 7900 rules!!


 
thats cause you can add a bike seat and ride it...errr i mean the HD filter kit. :msp_razz:


----------



## Andyshine77

young said:


> thats cause you can add a bike seat and ride it...errr i mean the HD filter kit. :msp_razz:


 
Brad proved that.


----------



## Stihlman441

7900 6.3 kg 4.6 kw 79cc
460 6.6 kg 4.5 kw 76.5cc
441C 6.6 kg 4.2 kw 70.7cc Smooth AV,good filter system,less fuel,no tune (mod it :smile2
660 7.5 kg 5.2 kw 91.6cc

Just saying


----------



## parrisw

Andyshine77 said:


> Ahahahahahahahaha. The 7900 rules!!


 
LOL. Yep. Mine's a Makita 6401BB, and its awesome. Wouldn't trade it for a 460.


----------



## Andyshine77

Stihlman441 said:


> 7900 6.3 kg 4.6 kw 79cc
> 460 6.6 kg 4.5 kw 76.5cc
> 441C 6.6 kg 4.2 kw 70.7cc Smooth AV,good filter system,less fuel,no tune (mod it :smile2
> 660 7.5 kg 5.2 kw 91.6cc
> 
> Just saying


 
I know, we're just full of BS.:msp_wink:


----------



## Stihlman441

Andyshine77 said:


> I know, we're just full of BS.:msp_wink:



Sorry mate you said it not me :msp_unsure:


----------



## wigglesworth

Stihlman441 said:


> 7900 6.3 kg 4.6 kw 79cc
> 460 6.6 kg 4.5 kw 76.5cc
> 441C 6.6 kg 4.2 kw 70.7cc Smooth AV,good filter system,less fuel,no tune (mod it :smile2
> 660 7.5 kg 5.2 kw 91.6cc
> 
> Just saying


 
Stihl 044 = 1.21 Gigawatts!!!!

















HOORAY 044!!!


----------



## j.williams

i see a reunion tour for you guys. great place to start it back up @ YMCA




Andyshine77 said:


> Brad proved that.


----------



## Wild Knight

wigglesworth said:


> Stihl 044 = 1.21 Gigawatts!!!!


 
What the hell is a gigawatt?!?!


----------



## blsnelling

Wild Knight said:


> What the hell is a gigawatt?!?!


 Thats the power output this 441 will have when I'm done with it!


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Thats the power output this 441 will have when I'm done with it!



My god man - you've found the secret to supplying enough power to run a city from your shed! Hook that puppy up to a generator STAT!!!


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Andyshine77 said:


> Ahahahahahahahaha. The 7900 rules!!


 

A 7900 isn't quite a 681 though.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Wild Knight said:


> What the hell is a gigawatt?!?!


 


A bolt of lightning!


----------



## wigglesworth

Wild Knight said:


> What the hell is a gigawatt?!?!


 
Geeze McFly.....

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/I5cYgRnfFDA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## WoodChuck'r

"Jiggawot"


----------



## j.williams

so on a two saw plan, the 261 being the 50cc saw which would you choose for the second larger saw 441cm or 460? NO porting allowed! this is for the everyday homeowner/ landowner that might do a mm or buy a dp cover for the 460.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

j.williams said:


> so on a two saw plan, the 261 being the 50cc saw which would you choose for the second larger saw 441cm or 460? NO porting allowed! this is for the everyday homeowner/ landowner that might do a mm or buy a dp cover for the 460.


 

Meh.....


I'd rather just own a slurry of 5 cubes.  :kilt:


----------



## blsnelling

Do you care about fuel consumption?


----------



## Stihlman441

When ya felling trees all day for money you dont fell many trees with a ported 660 per tank let me tell you.If i can do the same job with a lighter,better AV,fuel sipping, ported 441 C M Tronic then i know which one i will pick up more offen.


----------



## TK

blsnelling said:


> Do you care about fuel consumption?


 
I do. Not too much and not too little. Just enough to make max power. What else is there to worry about?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Fuel consumption. Bah. 

The fact that fuel costs money is a myth anyways.....


----------



## j.williams

blsnelling said:


> Do you care about fuel consumption?


 
no, my gas can, house, truck or barn is only a minute away. your an average guy that just walked into my stihl dealership to buy a 290 but im one hell of a salesman and talk you into this perfect two saw plan (261 & 441cm or 460) that will work perfect for anyone that is not a professional logger.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

blsnelling said:


> Do you care about fuel consumption?


 

I'm thinking this question wasn't for this thread, even before I replied to his question. I think it's for the dude who started the thread asking if he should buy the 440 or 441. 

But just maybe I'm wrong and an idiot. Who knows.


----------



## j.williams

WoodChuck'r said:


> I'm thinking this question wasn't for this thread, even before I replied to his question. I think it's for the dude who started the thread asking if he should buy the 440 or 441.
> 
> But just maybe I'm wrong and an idiot. Who knows.


 
i'm just curious if brad had to recommend a stihl 70cc saw now to a friend would it be a 441cm or 460?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

^^^^^^

I'll answer that for him and say that any modern 5 cube will do.


----------



## Officer's Match

Good question now, but even better after the M-Tronic goes under the grinder. (Yeah, I know you said stock, but enquiring minds wanna' know)


----------



## komatsuvarna

Just now got to watch the videos. I thought both the 441 and 576 looked impressive for stock saws.


----------



## blsnelling

WoodChuck'r said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> I'll answer that for him and say that any modern 5 cube will do.


 
What he said I loves me a 460, but that 441 C-M is mighty nice.


----------



## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> What he said I loves me a 460, but that 441 C-M is mighty nice.


 
I agree but even with my creamsicle googles, I can still see the 576 is mighty nice too.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Nik is gonna owe me a raffle ticket!


----------



## FATGUY

WoodChuck'r said:


> Nik is gonna owe me a raffle ticket!


 
I'll gladly pay up, it's for a great cause. I guess we're going to need a definitive answer, if one can be had at all, 
The just seem too close.


----------



## mdavlee

It seems liike with more runtime they both got a lot stronger. I guess there needs to be one more cookie cutting session to declare a winner from.


----------



## porsche965

*MS441 C-Mtronic*

An observation,
100 avgas 
100 AVGAS - Just makes the saw stronger. When you make the switch you can feel it "surging" only momentarily, and then it settles into a pleasant idle romp ready to cut. It becomes more responsive and feels stronger is the difference I felt. But just with 89 Marine fuel non-ethanol she runs well too. Amazing. 

I'm sure allot of vehicles do this very thing with fuels, elevations, etc. But in a small hand-held package like a chainsaw it is a hoot of a good time feeling and hearing all the small nuances that go on making the best possible outcome from each situation. 

Eerie is a good word for the 441C M-Tronic. It's like there is a little man inside the saw directing what the saw does all the time. I'll post this observation to the "other 441 thread" going on right now. I've contacted a friend in Porsche R&D in Germany. I have a feeling that this could be one of their brainstorms.....they do allot of work beyond their own R&D for other companies in the world.


----------



## Andyshine77

I addressed the octane issue in the other thread, but I'll reiterate the fact octane has nothing to do with power. Octane is simply the fuels resistance to knock, without the proper compression ratio you will loose some power. A saw will need over 200 psi to require anything other than normal pump fuel.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> It seems liike with more runtime they both got a lot stronger. I guess there needs to be one more cookie cutting session to declare a winner from.


 
I'm working to that.


----------



## blsnelling

I tried 100LL. It caused most of my modern high revving saws to have poor throttle response that could not be tuned out. It didn't seem to affect my older slower revving saws. I won't use it.


----------



## Andyshine77

The led was also an issue, it coated the exhaust outlets pretty quick, it can't be good for you.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm working to that.


 
Keep it another week or two if you need it to decide a winner


----------



## blsnelling

I think I found what we need to make this a fair comparison. Is this what we're looking for? I really didn't think I had it. You're welcome to sandblast, clean it up, and keep it to use as a modded muffler and save the original. You're also welcome to hack it up and throw it away when you're done.


----------



## the westspartan

NICE!!!!! Now we can get some apples to apples! I think the 441 will still come out on top, though I have found myself considering a 576 in the somewhat near future.


----------



## mdavlee

I think the 576 will take the 441 with a muffler mod. In the hickory it less than half a second behind.


----------



## porsche965

Brad,

If ugly will win a race bolt that muffler on! 

Great find, it will be good to keep these two as close as possible.

Has anyone ever wonder if the two saw builders Husky and Stihl are watching this with their note pads and pens? AS site should charge them admission!


----------



## parrisw

Andyshine77 said:


> I addressed the octane issue in the other thread, but I'll reiterate the fact octane has nothing to do with power. Octane is simply the fuels resistance to knock, without the proper compression ratio you will loose some power. A saw will need over 200 psi to require anything other than normal pump fuel.


 
I'm simply amazed at how many people make that mistake. I work at a service/gas station. Over the years, I've heard it so many times, I just shake my head.


----------



## Rudolf73

porsche965 said:


> [snip]
> 
> Has anyone ever wonder if the two saw builders Husky and Stihl are watching this with their note pads and pens? AS site should charge them admission!


 
I was thinking the same thing just the other day... They should sponsor these kind of builds because it will improve the sales for sure.


----------



## Andyshine77

Brad thinks for looking, by the sound of it mdavlee is game, now lets mod that can and see what she does in the wood.


----------



## the westspartan

Once that muffler is modded, bring out the 7900. I bet it ain't that far out in front of the other two.


----------



## Anthony_Va.

parrisw said:


> I'm simply amazed at how many people make that mistake. I work at a service/gas station. Over the years, I've heard it so many times, I just shake my head.


 
I agree! And people just keep refusing to believe that.


----------



## mdavlee

Get that old muffler modded and then later on I can mod the new muffler if I want to or just run that old one. We need to see the husky out cutting the stihl.


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Get that old muffler modded and then later on I can mod the new muffler if I want to or just run that old one. We need to see the husky out cutting the stihl.


 
I'm all for a fair showdown. I've always tried to be unbiased in my testing, letting the saws stand on their own. Thats why a Stihl guy like me owns a couple Huskies.


----------



## j.williams

brad what are your plans for the 441? i see u havnt added it to your sig yet. maybe auction it off too, for another charity.


----------



## blsnelling

j.williams said:


> brad what are your plans for the 441? i see u havnt added it to your sig yet. maybe auction it off too, for another charity.


 
It will be modded and then likely sold later this fall.


----------



## Wild Knight

Andyshine77 said:


> I addressed the octane issue in the other thread, but I'll reiterate the fact octane has nothing to do with power. Octane is simply the fuels resistance to knock, without the proper compression ratio you will loose some power. A saw will need over 200 psi to require anything other than normal pump fuel.


 
A lot of the time the use of AV gas or others has nothing to do with octane need, but is desired because of the additives package for storage life once mixed and sitting in your garage. It is also nice to know that if your ported saw with a pop-up leans out in the cut that you are using a fuel that will protect to higher temps and pressures. Just cheap insurance for an expensive saw IMO.


----------



## MCW

Wild Knight said:


> A lot of the time the use of AV gas or others has nothing to do with octane need, but is desired because of the additives package for storage life once mixed and sitting in your garage. It is also nice to know that if your ported saw with a pop-up leans out in the cut that you are using a fuel that will protect to higher temps and pressures. Just cheap insurance for an expensive saw IMO.



I agree. I use 98 RON Premium Unleaded in all my saws as it is not only a higher quality fuel, but provides a buffer in the event of any lean out scenario. I've mentioned this before on AS regarding extra protection offered by higher octane fuel, not necessarily higher power.


----------



## blsnelling

How does higher octane fuel give protection against a lean condition, assuming it's tuned properly for either fuel?


----------



## CR500

I think the higher the octane the less volitile it is right? 87 has a higher chance of pre dentnating than 93 octane right?


----------



## FATGUY

IIRC testing was done at Eric Jeeper's GTG a couple years back and cut times were the same regardless of the fuel used.


----------



## blsnelling

CR500 said:


> I think the higher the octane the less volitile it is right? 87 has a higher chance of pre dentnating than 93 octane right?


But if you're not pre-detonating with 87 octane, how can 110 octane provide any kind of protection against a lean seizure?


----------



## slangegger

blsnelling said:


> But if you're not pre-detonating with 87 octane, how can 110 octane provide any kind of protection against a lean seizure?


 
Brad,

I dont think he is reffering to damage caused by a lean seizure. I think he is talking about damage cause by pre-det.


----------



## blsnelling

slangegger said:


> Brad,
> 
> I dont think he is reffering to damage caused by a lean seizure. I think he is talking about damage cause by pre-det.


 
But thats not an issue with a work saw. My 440/460 has 195PSI compression and turns >15K RPMs, and it's totally fine on pump gas.


----------



## slangegger

I agree. I believe the thinking is, as the gas sits in storage, some octane is lost. It seems people feel that if they have the extra "buffer" of added octane, and a fuel that has a better shelf life, it adds a saftey factor.


----------



## Tzed250

Once again, there is no such thing as pre- detonation. It is either pre-ignition or detonation. Two completely different things.


----------



## blsnelling

Tzed250 said:


> Once again, there is no such thing as pre- detonation. It is either pre-ignition or detonation. Two completely different things.


 
But when it pre-ignites it also pre-detonates


----------



## Trx250r180

if theres no detonation no need for higher octane fuel


----------



## Hoytster

blsnelling said:


> But when it pre-ignites it also pre-detonates


 

Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition: Streetrod Stuff


Detonation Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

Pre-ignition Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.


----------



## Tzed250

blsnelling said:


> But when it pre-ignites it also pre-detonates


 
Ignition and detonation are mutually exclusive of each other. Ignition in an internal combustion engine is desireable as long as it is timed correctly. Detonation is never desirable, therefore it can't be premature. I don't know though, maybe you get backed up and call it pre-constipation.


----------



## Stihlman441

I agree. I believe the thinking is, as the gas sits in storage, some octane is lost. It seems people feel that if they have the extra "buffer" of added octane, and a fuel that has a better shelf life, it adds a saftey factor.[/QUOTE]

This is the way i see it and allways use 95 or 98 Octane.
When you get it how old is it ?
When you add oil you loose Octane
When you undo the fuel cotainer lid and it goes shissss you loose Octane
The longer you store it you loose Octane

Depend on where you live how the Octane is rated ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating


----------



## Officer's Match

Yeah, all well enough...

MORE COOKIES!


----------



## FATGUY

Tzed250 said:


> Ignition and detonation are mutually exclusive of each other. Ignition in an internal combustion engine is desireable as long as it is timed correctly. *Detonation is never desirable, therefore it can't be premature*. I don't know though, maybe you get backed up and call it pre-constipation.


 
, premature? meh, they say the same thing about ejaculation, and I say it's always right on time.


----------



## MacLaren

Andy, you didnt happen to get a weight on the 576AT did you?


----------



## FATGUY

we weighed them at the shop on our non-digital scale. Both showed 17#'s PHO full of fluids. The difference if any will be ounces.


----------



## MacLaren

FATGUY said:


> we weighed them at the shop on our non-digital scale. Both showed 17#'s PHO full of fluids. The difference if any will be ounces.


 
OK Nik. Thanks. It's just I've been lookin at the weight thread and wandered what the 576AT came in out of the box. I know the regular 441 is 15.0 pounds.


----------



## FATGUY

MacLaren said:


> OK Nik. Thanks. It's just I've been lookin at the weight thread and wandered what the 576AT came in out of the box. I know the regular 441 is 15.0 pounds.


 
we woulda took pics but since the scale only shows 1/2 lb. increments, we didn't think it would be precise enough for AS:msp_biggrin: Plus, we were in a rush to get to cutting.


----------



## MacLaren

FATGUY said:


> we woulda took pics but since the scale only shows 1/2 lb. increments, we didn't think it would be precise enough for AS:msp_biggrin: Plus, we were in a rush to get to cutting.


 
110% understood my good man. Carry on


----------



## Andyshine77

If the weight is within a 1/2 pound who cares, especially with bigger saws.


----------



## Anthony_Va.

Andyshine77 said:


> If the weight is within a 1/2 pound who cares, especially with bigger saws.


 
I agree. Half pound aint gonna kill a man.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> How does higher octane fuel give protection against a lean condition, *assuming it's tuned properly* for either fuel?



You've got it in a nutshell Brad. Higher octane fuel does not offer higher protection when everything is running fine and tuned properly. However a higher octane fuel does allow you to run leaner for longer before damage occurs, even if it is for only a minute or so.

Although not exactly the same it's why you can run higher octane fuel in some vehicles with knock sensors and gain power as the timing automatically advances itself to suit.


----------



## anymanusa

I've been eyeing this saw for months... I feel proud that I've resisted the urge to buy it so far... this thread isn't helping one bit.


----------



## j.williams

This thread is not for imformational purposes, it is solely to premote STIHL sales only. You are required by AS law to purchase a 441 C-M or 441 R C-M after reading this thread.:msp_wink:


----------



## Officer's Match

j.williams said:


> This thread is not for imformational purposes, it is solely to premote STIHL sales only. You are required by AS law to purchase a 441 C-M or 441 R C-M after reading this thread.:msp_wink:


 
Wow, good thing I only look at the pictures. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## mdavlee

I don't think this thread will bring me to buy a 441. Hopefully it will raise 576 sales so they can speed up the boat that has the 562s on it.


----------



## j.williams

What's a 576 or 562?? You say its some kind of boat?:big_smile:


----------



## MacLaren

j.williams said:


> What's a 576 or 562?? You say its some kind of boat?:big_smile:


 
.......lol, I think your a gettin ready to find out..... :byebye:


----------



## WoodChuck'r

I'll be buying one. If it's a 5 cube it's in my sights.


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

WoodChuck'r said:


> I'll be buying one. If it's a 5 cube it's in my sights.


 
When do you want your 441 CM, 460 Arctic and 440? Which one do you want first?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

BloodOnTheIce said:


> When do you want your 441 CM, 460 Arctic and 440? Which one do you want first?


 
I'm gonna pick'em all up once they're ALL paid off. Send me some kind of invoice if / when ya get a chance. You'll see the first payment in a week or two.....


----------



## WoodChuck'r

WoodChuck'r said:


> I'm gonna pick'em all up once they're ALL paid off. Send me some kind of invoice if / when ya get a chance. You'll see the first payment in a week or two.....


 

I'll prolly be picking them up in the beginning of December (or so-ish, I think maybe possibly I hope).


----------



## BlackAdder

Any news?


----------



## mdavlee

I talked with andre yesterday and they didn't do any cutting over the holiday. I think they'll get some more cutting done this week.


----------



## Andyshine77

As long as it's not raining, it's nice and cool now as well.:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## Officer's Match

Andyshine77 said:


> As long as it's not raining, it's nice and cool now as well.:msp_thumbsup:


 
Which, come to think of it, should allow the perpetual-tuning of both saws to run even stronger.


----------



## blsnelling

I still need to get that muffler to you too.


----------



## Andyshine77

Just whenever you get a chance, just let me know.


----------



## FATGUY

I'm back to work tomorrow, drop the muffler and the mill off. See you both after 5:00


----------



## anymanusa

so I went to the dealership and held this thing finally. Man does it feel big compared to my 280. How much should I be paying for this thing? 441cm version, or the wrap handle version? What's the price differential?

I'd feel good about getting it for $800, as I remember another AS member paying that many months ago... I ain't paying the $879 my dealer is trying to say it'll bring.


----------



## FATGUY

I favor the "regular" springs and don't much need a full wrap for cookie cutting. Just my $0.02


----------



## gcsupraman

anymanusa said:


> so I went to the dealership and held this thing finally. Man does it feel big compared to my 280. How much should I be paying for this thing? 441cm version, or the wrap handle version? What's the price differential?
> 
> I'd feel good about getting it for $800, as I remember another AS member paying that many months ago... I ain't paying the $879 my dealer is trying to say it'll bring.



I've been lurking for a bit - but had to register to reply to your post. I've owned a 260 pro, 360 pro (just sold) and decided on the MS441rcm after reading this thread.

Apparently NorthEast Stihl has not sold even 1 of these units which means not a single sole in the northeast owns one. I can't buy it from any other stihl dealers and it shipped as its a violation of stihl policy - what a nightmare. Northeast Stihl told me 4 weeks minimum to get it and the dealer wants $970 for the RCM. 

VERY curious to know what others are paying - i'm sure not $970.00!


----------



## RiverRat2

anymanusa said:


> so I went to the dealership and held this thing finally. Man does it feel big compared to my 280. How much should I be paying for this thing? 441cm version, or the wrap handle version? What's the price differential?
> 
> I'd feel good about getting it for $800, as I remember another AS member paying that many months ago... I ain't paying the $879 my dealer is trying to say it'll bring.



If you are just a firewood cutter the wrap handle is really not needed and just cost extra JMHO,,, if you do alot falling and have to cut from bothsides especially on uneven terrain regularly,, than yes its worth it,,, actually mandatory,,, and if you run a big bar 28"+ than the wrap handle comes with the HO oiler,,, another big plus,,,


----------



## parrisw

RiverRat2 said:


> If you are just a firewood cutter the wrap handle is really not needed and just cost extra JMHO,,, if you do alot falling and have to cut from bothsides especially on uneven terrain regularly,, than yes its worth it,,, actually almost mandatory,,, and if you run a big bar 28"+ than the wrap handle comes with the HO oiler,,, another big plus,,,


 
Couldn't of said it better myself Rick. 

Another plust to wrap handles is when climbing trees, it make it much easier to grab when hanging from you, and easier to cut.


----------



## young

gcsupraman said:


> I've been lurking for a bit - but had to register to reply to your post. I've owned a 260 pro, 360 pro (just sold) and decided on the MS441rcm after reading this thread.
> 
> Apparently NorthEast Stihl has not sold even 1 of these units which means not a single sole in the northeast owns one. I can't buy it from any other stihl dealers and it shipped as its a violation of stihl policy - what a nightmare. Northeast Stihl told me 4 weeks minimum to get it and the dealer wants $970 for the RCM.
> 
> VERY curious to know what others are paying - i'm sure not $970.00!



thats dsrp. the 3/4 wrap is usually only 40-50 more the the half-wrap. worth to get the 3/4 full wrap at stated by others for the higher output oiler. also for the dual felling spikes, roller chain catcher and larger clutch cover.


----------



## Slamm

Paying sub-$750 for Wrapped M-Tronics Model 441.


The M-Tronics also comes with the Stainless Steel Muffler (right?).

I like the stiffer springs for regular 28" bars and felling trees, but for bucking up and 20" bars, I like the softer sprung model. I have a few so I set them up that way two for felling trees and two for bucking up.

With the new Lite bars, I won't if the softer springs wouldn't work just fine?

In modded form, I feel you do need the better oiler, with 28" bars and bigger as that is just a lot of heat to have to get rid of.

Sam


----------



## young

Slamm said:


> ...
> 
> The M-Tronics also comes with the Stainless Steel Muffler (right?)...
> 
> Sam


 
they use to but now all 441 does (well newer built). also part number has superseded to the SS muffler again for all ms441.


----------



## Officer's Match

young said:


> they use to but now all 441 does (well newer built). also part number has superseded to the SS muffler again for all ms441.


 
I noticed that. I actually got excited as I approached a 441 in my local Stihl dealer when I saw the SS muff, but it was just a standard carbed version.


----------



## Slamm

Well thats news. Wonder why they went with the SS muffler. Its rare that a regular steel muffler wears out, ................. but it does happen. I'm for it, just wonder what prompted it.

Later,

Sam


----------



## gcsupraman

RiverRat2 said:


> If you are just a firewood cutter the wrap handle is really not needed and just cost extra JMHO,,, if you do alot falling and have to cut from bothsides especially on uneven terrain regularly,, than yes its worth it,,, actually mandatory,,, and if you run a big bar 28"+ than the wrap handle comes with the HO oiler,,, another big plus,,,


 
I own a small construction company and we clear 1-2 lots per year - when I need it to work, I need a great saw. Otherwise, it sits or is used very little. I just sold a 360pro to get a slightly larger saw and noticed this thread - it appeared that blsnelling has alot of experience with saws so I went for it based on his opinion of the saw.

I figured for the small amount of extra money it would be nice to have the larger oiler and the roller chain guard - the spikes, wrap, flap, clutch cover, springs are all nice but not really needed. I bought it with the 25" bar, but will replace with the 28" light at some point. I figured the saw would cost around $800-$900 so I didn't think the extra money would make much of a difference.

Edit: 9/9/11. Thanks to the help of the local dealer in CT and a long conversation with Northeast Stihl, the MS441RCM-25 (25 inch bar) unit was activated today for all dealers served by Northeast Stihl. I have one on order, and the dealer was able to adjust the price as additional shipping is no longer an issue now that it is active.

-Greg


----------



## young

unless you have a rapport with the dealer, youll pay dsrp.


----------



## Andyshine77

gcsupraman said:


> I own a small construction company and we clear 1-2 lots per year - when I need it to work, I need a great saw. Otherwise, it sits or is used very little. I just sold a 360pro to get a slightly larger saw and noticed this thread - it appeared that blsnelling has alot of experience with saws so I went for it based on his opinion of the saw.
> 
> I figured for the small amount of extra money it would be nice to have the larger oiler and the roller chain guard - the spikes, wrap, flap, clutch cover, springs are all nice but not really needed. I bought it with the 25" bar, but will replace with the 28" light at some point. I figured the saw would cost around $800-$900 so I didn't think the extra money would make much of a difference.
> 
> If $970 is drp, what would be a reasonable price to pay for this saw from a dealer? The dealer is stating Northeast Stihl is charging them additional freight since the saw has to be special ordered.
> 
> -Greg


 
I'd look for a new dealer, it's not a special order. A good dealer will always work in the price a little, especially with more expensive equipment.


----------



## mdavlee

There's one dealer close to me that will come down on the prices. They have come down around a $100 on a 441 and 460 both. The rest will come down maybe $30 on a model.


----------



## Slamm

$970, LOL, I'd start working on that rapport before I paid that much.

Sam


----------



## gcsupraman

Update:

Thanks to the help of NorthEast Stihl which I was on the phone with for another 30 minutes today, the MS441RCM-25 was activated today for all dealers served by NorthEast Stihl. Any dealer in the NE can order this saw via their typical web-based ordering procedures - it now shows up under the search. NES does not stock this saw but I understand they will source the saw in about a week and will ship it to the dealer in the second week. So it's about a two week turn around time

Also, the DRP on this saw is $950.00. My local dealer was able to work with me and I purchased the saw for a fair price under DRP. Now that this saw is active, and there are no additional shipping charges involved - it's a little easier to figure out a fair price for all.

So that's it - I have the first one on order in the NorthEast - very exciting. I have this cluster of 6" maple trees in the back yard that I really need to cut down. I hope this saw is big enough to do the job 

View attachment 198357


-Greg


----------



## the westspartan

gcsupraman said:


> Update:
> 
> I hope this saw is big enough to do the job
> 
> View attachment 198357
> 
> 
> -Greg


 
I don't know if you'll have enough saw for those monsters! That wrap handle and those big dawgs will sure be handy for them though.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Andyshine77

gcsupraman said:


> Update:
> 
> Thanks to the help of my local dealer in CT and NorthEast Stihl, the MS441RCM-25 was activated today for all dealers served by NorthEast Stihl. Any dealer in the NE can order this saw via their typical web-based ordering procedures - it now shows up under the search. NES does not stock this saw but I understand they will source the saw in about a week and will ship it to the dealer in the second week. So it's about a two week turn around time
> 
> Also, the DRP on this saw is $950.00. My local dealer was able to work with me and I purchased the saw for a fair price under DRP. Now that this saw is active, and there are no additional shipping charges involved - it's a little easier to figure out a fair price for all.
> 
> So that's it - I have the first one on order in the NorthEast - very exciting. I have this cluster of 6" maple trees in the back yard that I really need to cut down. I hope this saw is big enough to do the job
> 
> View attachment 198357
> 
> 
> -Greg



Again I'd still look for a new dealer, he was giving you a line so he could justify the price. Don't you think it's odd yesterday it was a special order, today it's not. Every saw has a set dealer price period, your dealer is full of BS.


----------



## young

gcsupraman said:


> Update:
> 
> Thanks to the help of my local dealer in CT and NorthEast Stihl, the MS441RCM-25 was activated today for all dealers served by NorthEast Stihl. Any dealer in the NE can order this saw via their typical web-based ordering procedures - it now shows up under the search. NES does not stock this saw but I understand they will source the saw in about a week and will ship it to the dealer in the second week. So it's about a two week turn around time
> 
> Also, the DRP on this saw is $950.00. My local dealer was able to work with me and I purchased the saw for a fair price under DRP. Now that this saw is active, and there are no additional shipping charges involved - it's a little easier to figure out a fair price for all.
> 
> So that's it - I have the first one on order in the NorthEast - very exciting. I have this cluster of 6" maple trees in the back yard that I really need to cut down. I hope this saw is big enough to do the job
> 
> View attachment 198357
> 
> 
> -Greg


 
so what the dealer sell it to you for?


----------



## Slamm

That is a crap dealer, why give him money.

Sam


----------



## Wild Knight

How is the port job going, Brad? You running into problems?


----------



## blsnelling

Wild Knight said:


> How is the port job going, Brad? You running into problems?


 
Andre won't give it back


----------



## MCW

Hmmm. Andre. I never did trust a guy with a beard...


----------



## mdavlee

I think he took our saws and ran off to the PNW to try them out. 

I think they'll be modded muffler comparison left to do.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> I think he took our saws and ran off to the PNW to try them out.
> 
> I think they'll be modded muffler comparison left to do.


 
PNW LOL.

It's been raining most of the week here, I'll try and get the muffler from brad soon and see how the 576 takes to a MM.


----------



## mdavlee

It even rained out here for about 15 seconds this week. Dad said it had been raining a lot since last weekend. Had a tree fall in my yard last Saturday. They had 70 mph winds and some bad lightning.


----------



## RiverRat2

gcsupraman said:


> Update:
> 
> Thanks to the help of NorthEast Stihl which I was on the phone with for another 30 minutes today, the MS441RCM-25 was activated today for all dealers served by NorthEast Stihl. Any dealer in the NE can order this saw via their typical web-based ordering procedures - it now shows up under the search. NES does not stock this saw but I understand they will source the saw in about a week and will ship it to the dealer in the second week. So it's about a two week turn around time
> 
> Also, the DRP on this saw is $950.00. My local dealer was able to work with me and I purchased the saw for a fair price under DRP. Now that this saw is active, and there are no additional shipping charges involved - it's a little easier to figure out a fair price for all.
> 
> So that's it - I have the first one on order in the NorthEast - very exciting. I have this cluster of 6" maple trees in the back yard that I really need to cut down. I hope this saw is big enough to do the job
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Greg



How is that??? and somebody hit this guy with some rep for some good PR work!!! it wont let me


----------



## porsche965

I've had my Stihl MS441RC-M since Jan. 26th, 2011. Picked it up in Ohio. (northeast)

It was the first one in the country with the M-Tronic sold to my knowledge. And in the Full Wrap option. It has just taken the non-believers in a 441 and then the M-Tronic to catch on.

It also has been fully ported since the first of June '11. No problems so far and the blueing on the outside of the stainless muffler is pretty cool looking!

I bet the 661 will be accepted much more readily.


----------



## young

porsche965 said:


> I've had my Stihl MS441RC-M since Jan. 26th, 2011. Picked it up in Ohio. (northeast).....


 
ohio is serviced by bryan equipment not northeast stihl.


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> I bet the 661 will be accepted much more readily.


 
I would accept one right now


----------



## mdavlee

I will be willing to try one for sure. I like 90cc saws a lot.


----------



## Andyshine77

Myself, Nik and Mike all had a chance to run the 576 and 441 a little bit on Saturday. Obviously both saws ran awesome, I still think I like the 441 more than the 576. However I'm slowly coming to the conclusion the 441's carb monitoring system may actually be less refined and more intrusive than the system on the 576. The 441 still seems to be fishing for proper tune, the 576 doesn't seem to have this issue, it simply feels like a more refined and smoother system. I'll probably have both saws for another week, so I hope to run them both a bit more before I return them to their owners. 

At this point I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't trade any of the older 70cc saws like the 372 or 440 for a 441 or 576. I feel both the 441 and 576 are actually built better than the models they replace, however the weight and bulk of both saw is hard to overlook. Remember the 440 and 372 are only marginally larger/heavier than a 361. Some have said both saws are more efficient, they may very well be correct, but keep in mind fatigue reduces efficiency as well. 

Just a few of my thoughts.

Andre.


----------



## BlackAdder

Did the 576 have the modded muffler fitted?


----------



## Andyshine77

BlackAdder said:


> Did the 576 have the modded muffler fitted?


 
Not yet, Brad had a hard week, I'll do my best to get it in the next few days.


----------



## Officer's Match

Andyshine77 said:


> At this point I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't trade any of the older 70cc saws like the 372 or 440 for a 441 or 576.
> 
> Andre.


 
Funny you should say that because the 372 X-Torq is back in my thinking for my upcoming 5 cube purchase (I wish Husky would have AutoTuned _that _one). I'm pairing it with a Snellerized 2153 (346NE) so I'm debating the weight vs the grunt, but the angry demeanor of that 441 is appealing as is the closer dealer support for me. If the 441 ported is as rowdy as billed, that is the way I'm leaning.


----------



## Mountainman6288

Officer's Match said:


> for my upcoming 5 cube purchase (.




Whats a 5 cube purchase ?


----------



## mdavlee

Andre if you need it another week that's fine with me. There's no hurry on my end.


----------



## albert

Andyshine77 said:


> Myself, Nik and Mike all had a chance to run the 576 and 441 a little bit on Saturday. Obviously both saws ran awesome, I still think I like the 441 more than the 576. However I'm slowly coming to the conclusion the 441's carb monitoring system may actually be less refined and more intrusive than the system on the 576. The 441 still seems to be fishing for proper tune, the 576 doesn't seem to have this issue, it simply feels like a more refined and smoother system. I'll probably have both saws for another week, so I hope to run them both a bit more before I return them to their own
> 
> Andre.


Too bad the muffler got opened on the 441 beffore it got broken in and before it was run with the 576 How does opening the mufflers effect the running of both of saws and does the mod cause some of these perceived quirks in the control systems? I don't know, but is the 441cm's system constantly checking and adjusting tune while the 576at's only check at first rev or cut and lock in parameters until the next start up? I have a feeling that the control systems on the two saws are very different in design and operation. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just differnt in how the systems work. I haven't run either of them yet, but for those that have does the 576at respond instantly with more grunt when leaned on like the 441cm is said to.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Mountain6288 said:


> Whats a 5 cube purchase ?


 

Lol man it's a 5 cubic inch saw - just about every 70cc saw is a "5 cube". 


And for the record, 5 cubes are the real hot rods in the chainsaw world. Period.


----------



## Mountainman6288

LOL. Ok, didnt know. Learning every day !


----------



## mdavlee

The 5 cubes are a good sized firewood saw. If they're warmed up a little they getter better.


----------



## Andyshine77

albert said:


> Too bad the muffler got opened on the 441 beffore it got broken in and before it was run with the 576 How does opening the mufflers effect the running of both of saws and does the mod cause some of these perceived quirks in the control systems? I don't know, but is the 441cm's system constantly checking and adjusting tune while the 576at's only check at first rev or cut and lock in parameters until the next start up? I have a feeling that the control systems on the two saws are very different in design and operation. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just differnt in how the systems work. I haven't run either of them yet, but for those that have does the 576at respond instantly with more grunt when leaned on like the 441cm is said to.


 
I'm not sure what effect the MM had on the saw, but I doubt it's an issue. Like I said before a lot of this is subjective, but the 576 does seem to have smoother monitoring, does this matter much? not really.


----------



## anymanusa

Andyshine77 said:


> Myself, Nik and Mike all had a chance to run the 576 and 441 a little bit on Saturday. Obviously both saws ran awesome, I still think I like the 441 more than the 576. *However I'm slowly coming to the conclusion the 441's carb monitoring system may actually be less refined and more intrusive than the system on the 576.* The 441 still seems to be fishing for proper tune, the 576 doesn't seem to have this issue, it simply feels like a more refined and smoother system. I'll probably have both saws for another week, so I hope to run them both a bit more before I return them to their owners.
> 
> At this point I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't trade any of the older 70cc saws like the 372 or 440 for a 441 or 576. I feel both the 441 and 576 are actually built better than the models they replace, however the weight and bulk of both saw is hard to overlook. Remember the 440 and 372 are only marginally larger/heavier than a 361. Some have said both saws are more efficient, they may very well be correct, but keep in mind fatigue reduces efficiency as well.
> 
> Just a few of my thoughts.
> 
> Andre.



that could be just a more conservative mapping/logrithm on the 576. The Stihl system may be tuning to finer increments. Just a thought also.


----------



## Andyshine77

Officer's Match said:


> Funny you should say that because the 372 X-Torq is back in my thinking for my upcoming 5 cube purchase (I wish Husky would have AutoTuned _that _one). I'm pairing it with a Snellerized 2153 (346NE) so I'm debating the weight vs the grunt, but the angry demeanor of that 441 is appealing as is the closer dealer support for me. If the 441 ported is as rowdy as billed, that is the way I'm leaning.


 
I'd say that both saws do have the grunt to pull 28" bars, but the oilers on both saws are at their limit IMHO. If you plan on running a 28" B&C most of the time, I'd say the 441cm and 576 would be a good choice, but so would just moving up to a 390xp. For an all around 70cc saw get a 372, 440, 7900.


----------



## FATGUY

I love the 576, period. I'm also uncertain which system is better but I can tell you I prefer the "real-time interaction" of the 441. I do understand how others may not. The best argument against it would be "who's gonna lead? you or I?." I see it a little differently though. To me, it seems like whatever I try to do, the 441 tells me instantly "ok, no problem, I can do that." I am however not a huge fan of the stiffer springs (the Husky's smoother) or the full wrap. All of this is just MHO.


----------



## FATGUY

Andyshine77 said:


> I'd say the both saws do have the grunt to pull 28" bars, but the oilers on both saws are at their limit IMHO. If you plan on running a 28" B&C most of the time, I'd say the 441cm and 576 would be a good choice, but so would just moving up to a 390xp. For an all around 70cc saw get a 372, 440, 7900.


 
My Stihls are/were miserly with the bar oil. The 460R oiler upgrade was the ticket for my 361, wonder if the 441 can be upgraded.


----------



## Officer's Match

Andyshine77 said:


> I'd say the both saws do have the grunt to pull 28" bars, but the oilers on both saws are at their limit IMHO. If you plan on running a 28" B&C most of the time, I'd say the 441cm and 576 would be a good choice, but so would just moving up to a 390xp. For an all around 70cc saw get a 372, 440, 7900.


 
I'll use a 25" bar, and would get the R version for the upgraded oiler and other stuff. Might swap to a non-wrap bar, but then again may not. Like I said, I've got much better dealer support nearby in creamsickle flavor, so the 441 just may get the nod.


----------



## mdavlee

The 441 oiler can be changed out to a HO like the 460. 

How many tanks through each of them now?


----------



## blsnelling

I've got the muffler in my car. I should be able to get it to Andre tomorrow.


----------



## mdavlee

That sounds good Brad. It will be interesting to see how much the muffler mod gains.


----------



## the westspartan

Let's say you have a good running but well used 441. How much would you pay on top of a trade for a brand new 441 C-M M-Tronic?


----------



## blsnelling

the westspartan said:


> Let's say you have a good running but well used 441. How much would you pay on top of a trade for a brand new 441 C-M M-Tronic?


 
Make sure you swap cylinders


----------



## Andyshine77

The 441 I have here is the R version so it has the HO oiler and IMHO it still doesn't put out enough oil, the 576 doesn't seem any better.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> The 441 oiler can be changed out to a HO like the 460.
> 
> How many tanks through each of them now?


 
The 441 has about a gallon the 576 about a half gallon.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> I love the 576, period. I'm also uncertain which system is better but I can tell you I prefer the "real-time interaction" of the 441. I do understand how others may not.



The question I have is it real time or slow time? If the adjustment is made fast and seamlessly you shouldn't feel the abrupt transition. This is my thinking anyway, I could be wrong.


----------



## blsnelling

I think it needs a CPU upgrade, lol.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I think it needs a CPU upgrade, lol.


 
Hahahaha. The system works very well don't get me wrong, I like it, it's just different and with more time on the saw who knows.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Hahahaha. The system works very well don't get me wrong, I like it, it's just different and with more time on the saw who knows.


 
My thinking is if it's processing fast enough, you should never feel what it's doing. Who knows.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> My thinking is if it's processing fast enough, you should never feel what it's doing. Who knows.


 
I agree.


----------



## Wild Knight

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm not sure what effect the MM had on the saw, but I doubt it's an issue. Like I said before a lot of this is subjective, but the 576 does seem to have smoother monitoring, does this matter much? not really.


 
I would bet that if the husky starts having the same issue once you put the MM on, then you will have your answer.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> i think it needs a cpu upgrade, lol.


 


andyshine77 said:


> hahahaha. The system works very well don't get me wrong, i like it, it's just different and with more time on the saw who knows.


 


blsnelling said:


> my thinking is if it's processing fast enough, you should never feel what it's doing. Who knows.



*flash it!!!*


----------



## blsnelling

Wild Knight said:


> I would bet that if the husky starts having the same issue once you put the MM on, then you will have your answer.


 I seriously doubt that's the cause. The 441 did it right out of the box before the muffler was ever touched.


----------



## parrisw

As for the adjusting mixture thing, I'm guessing its just too slow to respond. Think of you car, if you were going down the road and it started surging up and down every time you changed the throttle position. Auto's adjust seamlessly and very fast, you never notice it.


----------



## anymanusa

parrisw said:


> As for the adjusting mixture thing, I'm guessing its just too slow to respond. Think of you car, if you were going down the road and it started surging up and down every time you changed the throttle position. Auto's adjust seamlessly and very fast, you never notice it.


 
Apples to oranges. 14000 rpm vs. 3000 rpm. Massive inertia and flywheel vs next to nothing in rotating mass. The stihl could be keeping the saw right on the edge of running too lean and the adding fuel based on immediate thermal readings. Im just trying to play devils advocate here.


----------



## Andyshine77

anymanusa said:


> Apples to oranges. 14000 rpm vs. 3000 rpm. Massive inertia and flywheel vs next to nothing in rotating mass. The stihl could be keeping the saw right on the edge of running too lean and the adding fuel based on immediate thermal readings. Im just trying to play devils advocate here.


 
That's not how the system works, and the saw always seems to have plenty of fuel. The system works based on the rpm's under load.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

gcsupraman said:


> Update:
> 
> Thanks to the help of NorthEast Stihl which I was on the phone with for another 30 minutes today, the MS441RCM-25 was activated today for all dealers served by NorthEast Stihl. Any dealer in the NE can order this saw via their typical web-based ordering procedures - it now shows up under the search. NES does not stock this saw but I understand they will source the saw in about a week and will ship it to the dealer in the second week. So it's about a two week turn around time
> 
> Also, the DRP on this saw is $950.00. My local dealer was able to work with me and I purchased the saw for a fair price under DRP. Now that this saw is active, and there are no additional shipping charges involved - it's a little easier to figure out a fair price for all.
> 
> So that's it - I have the first one on order in the NorthEast - very exciting. I have this cluster of 6" maple trees in the back yard that I really need to cut down. I hope this saw is big enough to do the job
> 
> View attachment 198357
> 
> 
> -Greg


 Wy do yo need such a massive saw to cut such weedy little trees when a ms211 or if you want to go "pro" ms260 would do the job! What a waste of money!


----------



## the westspartan

inthewoodsagain said:


> Wy do yo need such a massive saw to cut such weedy little trees when a ms211 or if you want to go "pro" ms260 would do the job! What a waste of money!


 
I think he was joking


----------



## WoodChuck'r

inthewoodsagain said:


> Wy do yo need such a massive saw to cut such weedy little trees when a ms211 or if you want to go "pro" ms260 would do the job! What a waste of money!


 
Wha chu' talkin' bout?!

I HIGHLY recommend an overpowered saw for each and every use!


----------



## mdavlee

Over here we like big saws with plenty of power so we don't have to wait to finish cutting the wood so we have more time to drink beer and talk about how much power our saws have.:msp_tongue:

:yoyo:
opcorn:


----------



## WoodChuck'r

the westspartan said:


> I think he was joking


 
Wassup white bread...?!


Hey do you have any scrap flat stock there at the shop...?? And do ya have time this week to use your wittz to try and fix a broken seat bracket for my dad's Kubota tractor??

Lemme know, I'd like to avoid having to spend $140 on a generic replacement bracket. Kubota wants over $200 for one!!


----------



## the westspartan

WoodChuck'r said:


> Wassup white bread...?!
> 
> 
> Hey do you have any scrap flat stock there at the shop...?? And do ya have time this week to use your wittz to try and fix a broken seat bracket for his Kubota tractor??
> 
> Lemme know, I'd like to avoid having to spend $140 on a generic replacement bracket. Kubota wants over $200 for one!!


 
Get me the broken one and I could probably fab something up for you that would match, or just weld the old one. 

I am seriously thinking about getting one of these new fangled computer saws from my man Cale!


----------



## inthewoodsagain

FATGUY said:


> I love the 576, period. I'm also uncertain which system is better but I can tell you I prefer the "real-time interaction" of the 441. I do understand how others may not. The best argument against it would be "who's gonna lead? you or I?." I see it a little differently though. To me, it seems like whatever I try to do, the 441 tells me instantly "ok, no problem, I can do that." I am however not a huge fan of the stiffer springs (the Husky's smoother) or the full wrap. All of this is just MHO.


 
Totaly agree. It rings all the bells for me and thats why we now have 8. We no longer have any 460's just 441cm. I had to order the oiler kits and clutch housing and large double bump spikes as they are not the norm in the Uk. They run Stihl 20" to 30" ES bars, RCS chain and are fuelled on Stihl Ultra oil and Super unleaded fuel. We do mod the exhaust but it is the original one and we also bought a high- spec tacho. I still find it amazing how it "learns" as I put some crap petrol in one of them today and it came true - just a bit less power but still ran sweet. You get what you pay for and I have never complained about my profit margins just fed up with clearing up after the "wanabies!" Jon


----------



## blsnelling

The muffler has been delivered


----------



## inthewoodsagain

WoodChuck'r said:


> Wha chu' talkin' bout?!
> 
> I HIGHLY recommend an overpowered saw for each and every use!


 
Yes you guys have it all but over here we have HSE and liable laws so officially we are not allowed any bar bigger than a 25" on a 441 or 460!! It is thanks to this fantastic forum and the select few of you "modders" that we over here get more for our £££££££££'s. Brillant website and keep up the good work - all of you


----------



## Slamm

inthewoodsagain said:


> Totaly agree. It rings all the bells for me and thats why we now have 8. We no longer have any 460's just 441cm. I had to order the oiler kits and clutch housing and large double bump spikes as they are not the norm in the Uk. They run Stihl 20" to 30" ES bars, RCS chain and are fuelled on Stihl Ultra oil and Super unleaded fuel. We do mod the exhaust but it is the original one and we also bought a high- spec tacho. I still find it amazing how it "learns" as I put some crap petrol in one of them today and it came true - just a bit less power but still ran sweet. You get what you pay for and I have never complained about my profit margins just fed up with clearing up after the "wanabies!" Jon


 
Precisely. I'm switching over to the M-Tronics, but they will all me modded first. I just don't see any benefits from having the regular carb anymore. For little to no more outlay of money, I have a truly "live", management system that rides along for free and always keeps my saw running at peak performance regardless of any other variables that can and do arise from time to time.

I'm interested in if the fuel mileage increases or stays the same or is even noticed as a difference compared to the regular carbed models, that I have. 

I'm selling my regular carbed 441's to cutters in Wisconsin, shsssssh'd they don't know about the M-Tronics, LOL, and I'm not telling them ........ yet, LOL.

Sam


----------



## blsnelling

I'm disappointed that the 461s we've heard of do not have the M-Tronic carb. Hopefully when they make it to production, they'll have it. I hope the 661 will have it as well. I'm all for it.


----------



## Slamm

blsnelling said:


> I'm disappointed that the 461s we've heard of do not have the M-Tronic carb. Hopefully when they make it to production, they'll have it. I hope the 661 will have it as well. I'm all for it.


 
I was hopeful for the 461, but its pretty for sure going to be a rubber mounted saw and my wussy hands/wrist, probably won't be able to handle the vibrations. I might still get one for the kicks or to compare, but just don't see the 7ish cc difference as going to be worth owning a different lineup than the few 441 M-Tronics, as that is just more economical for me. If in fact, it doesn't have the M-Tronics, then that is a total killer for the 461 in my opinion, there is likely no way it will beat the modded 441 M-Tronics at that point, and if it does it will be minor. With any luck they will follow a design similar to the 361's cylinder design as that is a really good one, as its not going to be a strato like the 441 design.

Wonder if it is going to be lighter or heavier than the 441, that might be a positive for the 461 if it is lighter, but it would need to get down to the 440's weight bracket to make it noticeable, but I remember being at Jeremy's and we handed each other 440/460 hybrids and the 441 back and forth with eyes closed and neither could figure out which was which based on blind "weight" check.

Just really don't understand the whole 461 thought process? 7cc difference is almost redundant. The Dolmar is such a big whoop around here and it is 8ish cc's bigger and it can walk away from it, so from a CC's point of view, you might as well go to the next size 90cc and make a difference, but obviously there is sales/marketing research ideas and theories, behind this redundancy and it must make sense from that point of view.

Sam


----------



## inthewoodsagain

Slamm said:


> Precisely. I'm switching over to the M-Tronics, but they will all me modded first. I just don't see any benefits from having the regular carb anymore. For little to no more outlay of money, I have a truly "live", management system that rides along for free and always keeps my saw running at peak performance regardless of any other variables that can and do arise from time to time.
> 
> I'm interested in if the fuel mileage increases or stays the same or is even noticed as a difference compared to the regular carbed models, that I have.
> 
> I'm selling my regular carbed 441's to cutters in Wisconsin, shsssssh'd they don't know about the M-Tronics, LOL, and I'm not telling them ........ yet, LOL.
> 
> Sam


 
Hi Sam. we still have 4 Ms 280i saws and they are running 20" bars on 325" chain. Over here they are officially not allowed this bar as 18" is "the max". These are used daily all year round and, as with all our saws it is 1 man 1 saw etc. For parts, backup etc etc, I would not hesitate in buying Stihl. Personaly dealer network is crucial and in the Uk, Stihl has it and, as we have tried the rest, we were always let down by the most simple of part availiability but no probs wih Stihl. I should add that we have now 30 plus items of there product but 5 years ago you would see nothing but "orange"!!! - too much washing machine and fridges if you know what I mean! Stihl all the way. Jon


----------



## inthewoodsagain

gcsupraman said:


> Update:
> 
> Thanks to the help of NorthEast Stihl which I was on the phone with for another 30 minutes today, the MS441RCM-25 was activated today for all dealers served by NorthEast Stihl. Any dealer in the NE can order this saw via their typical web-based ordering procedures - it now shows up under the search. NES does not stock this saw but I understand they will source the saw in about a week and will ship it to the dealer in the second week. So it's about a two week turn around time
> 
> Also, the DRP on this saw is $950.00. My local dealer was able to work with me and I purchased the saw for a fair price under DRP. Now that this saw is active, and there are no additional shipping charges involved - it's a little easier to figure out a fair price for all.
> 
> So that's it - I have the first one on order in the NorthEast - very exciting. I have this cluster of 6" maple trees in the back yard that I really need to cut down. I hope this saw is big enough to do the job
> 
> View attachment 198357
> 
> 
> -Greg


 
Hi, just to let you know that Retail in uk is £830 plus 20% tax with 20" bar, Dollar at the moment is £1 - $1.65 Why is it cheaper in the US????!!!


----------



## Slamm

inthewoodsagain said:


> Hi Sam. we still have 4 Ms 280i saws and they are running 20" bars on 325" chain. Over here they are officially not allowed this bar as 18" is "the max". These are used daily all year round and, as with all our saws it is 1 man 1 saw etc. For parts, backup etc etc, I would not hesitate in buying Stihl. Personaly dealer network is crucial and in the Uk, Stihl has it and, as we have tried the rest, we were always let down by the most simple of part availiability but no probs wih Stihl. I should add that we have now 30 plus items of there product but 5 years ago you would see nothing but "orange"!!! - too much washing machine and fridges if you know what I mean! Stihl all the way. Jon


 
I know what you mean, its seems to me that the "more expensive" Stihl ends up being cheaper for me in the long run, and quite honestly, I can get my Stihl stuff cheaper than other saws, so I have the best of all worlds. I don't have half the problems of others with same amount of saws in service. We smash and break parts, from normal logging abuse, (I don't or wouldn't blame Husky or Stihl for that kinda stuff), but things actually failing or wearing out on our modded Stihl saws, is far and few between.

Sam


----------



## inthewoodsagain

Slamm said:


> Precisely. I'm switching over to the M-Tronics, but they will all me modded first. I just don't see any benefits from having the regular carb anymore. For little to no more outlay of money, I have a truly "live", management system that rides along for free and always keeps my saw running at peak performance regardless of any other variables that can and do arise from time to time.
> 
> I'm interested in if the fuel mileage increases or stays the same or is even noticed as a difference compared to the regular carbed models, that I have.
> 
> I'm selling my regular carbed 441's to cutters in Wisconsin, shsssssh'd they don't know about the M-Tronics, LOL, and I'm not telling them ........ yet, LOL.
> 
> Sam


 
Hi Sam, not sure if you have them there yet but we also have 8 x FS460 cem brush cutters. They are m-tronic and replaced fs500's, again fantastic and learn!. Jon


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

the westspartan said:


> Get me the broken one and I could probably fab something up for you that would match, or just weld the old one.
> 
> I am seriously thinking about getting one of these new fangled computer saws from my man Cale!


 
It would make a nice wedding present for Kim.


----------



## Officer's Match

BloodOnTheIce said:


> It would make a nice wedding present for Kim.


 
Indeed. Mrs. OM once got a Dolmar for mother's day. :redface:


----------



## BlackAdder

inthewoodsagain said:


> Totaly agree. It rings all the bells for me and thats why we now have 8. We no longer have any 460's just 441cm. I had to order the oiler kits and clutch housing and large double bump spikes as they are not the norm in the Uk. They run Stihl 20" to 30" ES bars, RCS chain and are fuelled on Stihl Ultra oil and Super unleaded fuel. We do mod the exhaust but it is the original one and we also bought a high- spec tacho. I still find it amazing how it "learns" as I put some crap petrol in one of them today and it came true - just a bit less power but still ran sweet. You get what you pay for and I have never complained about my profit margins just fed up with clearing up after the "wanabies!" Jon


 
What do you use the Tacho for? Is there something to adjust the tune with on the 441cms?


----------



## the westspartan

BloodOnTheIce said:


> It would make a nice wedding present for Kim.


 
In that case she may be more interested in an MS 880 for milling the big stuff! LOL


----------



## j.williams

Did a MM last week and finally took the time to take a couple pics.









View attachment 199001
View attachment 199002


----------



## mdavlee

That muffler mod looks good. Is it real loud like that?

Andre you got the muffler modded yet?


----------



## FATGUY

mdavlee said:


> That muffler mod looks good. Is it real loud like that?
> 
> Andre you got the muffler modded yet?


 
my bad, still sitting on my desk @ the shop....


----------



## Slamm

I have to check one of the newer modded 441's that Terry sent to Wisconsin, it has a big hole in the muffler bigger than that pipe and the ones on my saw, and that is a strong saw. The guy that owns it has run 3 of 4 of my modded saws for 10+ hours per day and for weeks, and both Terry and him thinks his is pretty strong, only difference is bigger hole in muffler.

If it was modded, I'd say you could get more power out of about 1/8" larger dia. hole, but in stock form, it is likely you are at the correct size.

Looks good, I'd like it out the side a little more, but your at a good angle for working. It'll blow the leafs up on low hanging branches, LOL.

Sam


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> my bad, still sitting on my desk @ the shop....


 
:msp_ohmy: I'll have it tomorrow everyone.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

the westspartan said:


> In that case she may be more interested in an MS 880 for milling the big stuff! LOL


 

Gotta get me one. I could SO use a big ole milling saw.

One day..... One day.........


----------



## Stihlman441

Sorry people dont like the tube muff mod looks like an after thought,why cant ya open up the original port the deflector is big enough.If you loose the spark screen so be it there isnt one on the tube modd.


----------



## FATGUY

WoodChuck'r said:


> Gotta get me one. I could SO use a big ole milling saw.
> 
> One day..... One day.........


 
well before that, you'll have to pony up one more ticket for the raffle saw. You might as well do it already as you know the Husky's gonna get thumped. It's gonna be so sweet winning a Stihl on a ticket a Husky fanboy bought.:tongue2::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## WoodChuck'r

FATGUY said:


> well before that, you'll have to pony up one more ticket for the raffle saw. You might as well do it already as you know the Husky's gonna get thumped. It's gonna be so sweet winning a Stihl on a ticket a Husky fanboy bought.:tongue2::hmm3grin2orange:





Hey FATDUDE since when am I a Husky fanboy?!


I think you've got me confused with yer boyfriend Brad er something!! :msp_scared:


----------



## mdavlee

I think the 576 will take it with a modded muffler. I may be wrong but I think it will be a little ahead with both having modded mufflers.


----------



## Slamm

mdavlee said:


> I think the 576 will take it with a modded muffler. I may be wrong but I think it will be a little ahead with both having modded mufflers.


 
Did you guys ever run them together yet? I thought you did, but look around the 38 pages and didn't find it.

Sam


----------



## mdavlee

They ran them together a couple times so far. The first time the 441 was ahead by a decent amount. The second time they were within a half second. I guess the 576 gets a 3rd shot at catching it. Andre still has the saw for now. Whenever they get done testing/playing and Brad wants to port the 441 then I'll get mine shipped to me.


----------



## FATGUY

WoodChuck'r said:


> Hey FATDUDE since when am I a Husky fanboy?!
> 
> *
> I think you've got me confused with yer boyfriend Brad er something!!* :msp_scared:


 
maybe you and Andre can have a gay husky wedding.:msp_ohmy:


----------



## Slamm

mdavlee said:


> They ran them together a couple times so far. The first time the 441 was ahead by a decent amount. The second time they were within a half second. I guess the 576 gets a 3rd shot at catching it. Andre still has the saw for now. Whenever they get done testing/playing and Brad wants to port the 441 then I'll get mine shipped to me.


 
LOL, so the muffler modded 441 did beat the non muffler modded 576, by more at first and then less the second time? What changed? How many tanks are through them, because the 441 isn't going to cut worth a hoot until it has some say 15 tanks, I say 20 tanks. I'm sure the 576 is similar.

So it will be interesting. At this point is sounds like its going to come down to a couple seconds or less, and that just doesn't do it for me ...... win or loose by either one.

Are you guy's going to modd them both and then run them again for fourth race?

Sam


----------



## FATGUY

Slamm said:


> LOL, so the muffler modded 441 did beat the non muffler modded 576, by more at first and then less the second time? What changed?  How many tanks are through them, because the 441 isn't going to cut worth a hoot until it has some say 15 tanks, I say 20 tanks. I'm sure the 576 is similar.
> 
> So it will be interesting. At this point is sounds like its going to come down to a couple seconds or less, and that just doesn't do it for me ...... win or loose by either one.
> 
> Are you guy's going to modd them both and then run them again for fourth race?
> 
> Sam


 
both will be compared with muffler mods


----------



## Slamm

I found the times of the 576 and 441. What does it mean when they say, they timed the cuts, but weren't racing? Are the times legit times or just fooling around with them, which times are which?

Just wondering,

Sam


----------



## FATGUY

NON OF THIS TESTING IS SCIENTIFIC! We try and do the best that can be done under normal, non-laboratory settings.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> maybe you and Andre can have a gay husky wedding.:msp_ohmy:


 
Well it is legal in NY, isn't it?:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Andyshine77 said:


> Well it is legal in NY, isn't it?:msp_thumbsup:


 

:rainbow: :rose:  :rose: :rainbow:


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> NON OF THIS TESTING IS SCIENTIFIC! We try and do the best that can be done under normal, non-laboratory settings.


 
Nik get your head out of your ass, you know the 441 is the only saw in existence, how could it be compared to something that doesn't exist.


----------



## Andyshine77

:love1::sweet_kiss:


WoodChuck'r said:


> :rainbow: :rose:  :rose: :rainbow:


----------



## inthewoodsagain

BlackAdder said:


> What do you use the Tacho for? Is there something to adjust the tune with on the 441cms?


 
Hi, It was bought because it is used on our old 440,460 and 660 saws as we have being experiencing "bad fuel" probs over the last 15 months/2 years 's or so. We bought the 280i's because of this and had no probs at all. The big saws were getting worse and we thought this was wear and tear. Because of this and issuses with our old FS450 brush-cutters, we bought 1 441cm and no probs! so on that saw over 5 or so days, we upped the bar from 20" to 25"- did 5 consectutive cuts,stopped it, restart and different saw! so we did the same with 30" bar and same! Awsome power but big difference in fuel ie uses more - alot! Because of this I bought 7 more and they all run perfect. The tacho is used to tune the old 441 carb saws max revs on the big bars ie 30" etc. It is an acoustic one so you can set the paramiters to how you want to - so stopping over reving with the fueling etc. Fuel and emmissions are a major headache and so is wrecked saws so it serves a purpose for the older saws that are having to run on awful petrol! It works as we have found 6 out of 5 saws-the rev limiter was 900 -1500 rpm out!! ie under reving!


----------



## FATGUY

Andyshine77 said:


> Nik get your head out of your ass, you know the 441 is the only saw in existence, how could it be compared to something that doesn't exist.


 
put your money where your mouth is sweetheart. Same bet as with chucker; 576 wins, I buy you a raffle ticket, 441 wins, you buy me one....


----------



## FATGUY

and this shows you just how sure I am in the ole orange and cream. You'll be the one running 'em and the Husky'll still lose!


----------



## mdavlee

Well I hope the husky wins since its mine. I don't think either is a bad choice.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

porsche965 said:


> I've had my Stihl MS441RC-M since Jan. 26th, 2011. Picked it up in Ohio. (northeast)
> 
> It was the first one in the country with the M-Tronic sold to my knowledge. And in the Full Wrap option. It has just taken the non-believers in a 441 and then the M-Tronic to catch on.
> 
> It also has been fully ported since the first of June '11. No problems so far and the blueing on the outside of the stainless muffler is pretty cool looking!
> 
> I bet the 661 will be accepted much more readily.


 
Which form of mm did you go for out of interest?


----------



## BlackAdder

inthewoodsagain said:


> Hi, It was bought because it is used on our old 440,460 and 660 saws as we have being experiencing "bad fuel" probs over the last 15 months/2 years 's or so. We bought the 280i's because of this and had no probs at all. The big saws were getting worse and we thought this was wear and tear. Because of this and issuses with our old FS450 brush-cutters, we bought 1 441cm and no probs! so on that saw over 5 or so days, we upped the bar from 20" to 25"- did 5 consectutive cuts,stopped it, restart and different saw! so we did the same with 30" bar and same! Awsome power but big difference in fuel ie uses more - alot! Because of this I bought 7 more and they all run perfect. The tacho is used to tune the old 441 carb saws max revs on the big bars ie 30" etc. It is an acoustic one so you can set the paramiters to how you want to - so stopping over reving with the fueling etc. Fuel and emmissions are a major headache and so is wrecked saws so it serves a purpose for the older saws that are having to run on awful petrol! It works as we have found 6 out of 5 saws-the rev limiter was 900 -1500 rpm out!! ie under reving!


 
Sounds like a serious bit of kit. What did you do to the under reving saws, swap out the ignition modules?


----------



## dave k

ITWA Im sorry but I cannot grasp the problem you are having with " awful petrol " you are in Nth Yorks not Nth Tibet ! do you mean that as with all unleaded it is "going off" if that is the case then try Briggs & Stratton fuel fit it works very well. 
In an earlier post you stated that it was "illegal" to use more than a 25" bar on a 441 in the UK I assume that you were refering to operators that have not compleated the NPTC CS modules required ?
The vast majority of members here are based in the USA so our, European, practices are worlds apart and we seem to be quite lucky in the fuel issue compared to the nightmare of additives they have to suffer !


----------



## inthewoodsagain

FATGUY said:


> My Stihls are/were miserly with the bar oil. The 460R oiler upgrade was the ticket for my 361, wonder if the 441 can be upgraded.


 
Hi, have 8 441cm oiler up grades on order as you are correct that the standard pump stuggles even with stihl Bioplus which we have to use as near rivers and enviro etc. Also bought the larger sprocket covers and the bigger dawgs / "bumpers"- (called this in the UK!) for the covers as we are cutting alot of (sadley) oak.


----------



## Slamm

inthewoodsagain said:


> Hi, have 8 441cm oiler up grades on order as you are correct that the standard pump stuggles even with stihl Bioplus which we have to use as near rivers and enviro etc. Also bought the larger sprocket covers and the bigger dawgs / "bumpers"- (called this in the UK!) for the covers as we are cutting alot of (sadley) oak.


 
My 441R's (better oilers) do fine with 28" bars (with any crap bar oil you can find) when stock or modded to a portion of their potential. Once I got version 2 (current version) of the porting job done on the 441's, and they really, really came alive, then the basic/cheaper bar oil was not working anymore, and I had to use Stihl bar oil to fix the problem of oiling a 28" bar. That said, I'm only getting maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of the oil tank empty before the gas tank needs to be refilled. So that is still miserly oil use, as it isn't a 1:1 ratio of oil tank to gas tank, but again by using Stihl bar oil, I have not found the need to have to use more of the cheaper bar oil, so I'm actually saving money, buy using the more expensive bar oil made by Stihl, as I know the Tractor Supply oil will not work.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

inthewoodsagain said:


> Hi, have 8 441cm oiler up grades on order as you are correct that the standard pump stuggles even with stihl Bioplus which we have to use as near rivers and enviro etc. Also bought the larger sprocket covers and the bigger dawgs / "bumpers"- (called this in the UK!) for the covers as we are cutting alot of (sadley) oak.


 
Just curious, why you didn't just get Wrapped or 441R models to begin with. Then you would have had all of those options on there. I just wish, we could get the R models with the (for me) useless Wrap handle, as I have several that I need to sell with more coming that will need to be sold. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to sell them with the correct handle bar on it, LOL.

Sam


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> NON OF THIS TESTING IS SCIENTIFIC! We try and do the best that can be done under normal, non-laboratory settings.



Hi Nik.
You forgot to add...

"NON OF THIS TESTING IS SCIENTIFIC! We try and do the best that can be done under normal, non-laboratory settings. *With beer*".


----------



## inthewoodsagain

j.williams said:


> Did a MM last week and finally took the time to take a couple pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 199001
> View attachment 199002


 
Hi I like the mod but I don't understand the small pipe? I know you have to have spark arrester screen so why none on the mod? All we did was follow the rule of 80% (ish) of cylinder exhaust "dia", milled out the original exhaust oulet by this amount on spec ie accurate, remounted exhaust and ran as a tune up ie stop. 5 cuts. stop etc! Saw is different machine. You have to tune the saw to the bar or wood. by this method. It learns. I am so impressed with them(441cm) that we have an avide Husky user on our payrol and he is a full convert!!


----------



## inthewoodsagain

BlackAdder said:


> Sounds like a serious bit of kit. What did you do to the under reving saws, swap out the ignition modules?


 
Hi. no it was simple! In EC/UK our carbs have "limiters" on them and it was just a question of "remove!!" and closining up the mixture as they were running VERY rich. I do not understand how in this eco-world they "make every thing either (2stroke engine) weak or strong mix?? All saws now run with a nice exhaust colour and heaps of power( the old ones) The m-tronics are a marvel and do this themselves but you have to tune each saw with it bar. Stihl say this, so I cannot understand why people do not do it?!! It makes such a huge difference. Will never buy any more 460 as these are old and the 441cm's do it for us. Next will be 661 and if proven, maybe a 881???? Who knows all our wood is oak and very old large 300year plus old trees so we need great saws. I will trade all the old big saws in as and when the technology is availiable on the new 660,880. Brilliant. Will always buy Stihl in the UK as parts etc is second to NONE


----------



## albert

Slamm, depending on the mods done, I'm sure your using more fuel than if stock so I'm not surprised you still have 1/4 tank or more of oil left when fuel is empty.


----------



## forestryworks

Heard the 661 is gonna be auto tune or M-Tronic w/e the hell it's called. Probably have spring AV too.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

dave k said:


> ITWA Im sorry but I cannot grasp the problem you are having with " awful petrol " you are in Nth Yorks not Nth Tibet ! do you mean that as with all unleaded it is "going off" if that is the case then try Briggs & Stratton fuel fit it works very well.
> In an earlier post you stated that it was "illegal" to use more than a 25" bar on a 441 in the UK I assume that you were refering to operators that have not compleated the NPTC CS modules required ?
> The vast majority of members here are based in the USA so our, European, practices are worlds apart and we seem to be quite lucky in the fuel issue compared to the nightmare of additives they have to suffer !


 
Yes I do live in North Yorks and NO I do not live in Tibet so you are correct! We live in remote North Yorks ie 18 miles from an independent filling station, and in winter months fuel ie petol gets stale.We have tried briggs equivalent but it is not a mistery that fuel is changing, and because I buy in bulk we have issues hence why i buy 25 litres drums of none branded Ultra oil from the manufacture. Stihl UK do not recomend for use above 25" bar for the 441cm and only what is recommended in the current UK brochure. I see you are from Eire. I cannot buy a saw from you under Stihl's marketing policy. Yes you can buy bigger bars on you own but not officially and this brings HSE in to equation. All Our staff are trained with big bar usage but they are all Stihl branded bars and chain sets as they are compatable and safe in the right hands


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Okay this thread needs to die until the saw comparison is ready and once we know what the what-what is we can move on.

This thread is constantly bumped to the top and every time I hope it's saw info and it's usually anything but!


Nik/Andre/Brad hurry up with this chit or I'll start posting lot's of gangsta rap videos!! I can't help but do it when I get bored!! 

  :spam:


----------



## inthewoodsagain

Slamm said:


> Just curious, why you didn't just get Wrapped or 441R models to begin with. Then you would have had all of those options on there. I just wish, we could get the R models with the (for me) useless Wrap handle, as I have several that I need to sell with more coming that will need to be sold. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to sell them with the correct handle bar on it, LOL.
> 
> Sam


 
Inspite of being a big user of Stihl, they will not supply us with "wrap handles"! as ia big NO NO!! so am looking to US? They are availiable in UK if you use the 460 Rescue saw and are emergency services but will not supply normal dealers. We work on hillsides and so would suit the wrap handle but cannot get it!! How much is it extra?


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> maybe you and Andre can have a gay husky wedding.:msp_ohmy:


 
Where's the like x 1000 button, lol? That was hillarious.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

albert said:


> Slamm, depending on the mods done, I'm sure your using more fuel than if stock so I'm not surprised you still have 1/4 tank or more of oil left when fuel is empty.


 
Hi. only one saw has had the " full treatmeant and that was "no1" the rest are waiting for the oiler kits etc. Yes you have to watch the bar oil fling but hey, it will get an oiler also so no probs. They are great saws so am happy. How much for a wrap handle to UK?


----------



## blsnelling

WoodChuck'r said:


> Nik/Andre/Brad hurry up with this chit or I'll start posting lot's of gangsta rap videos!! I can't help but do it when I get bored!!
> 
> :spam:


 
Andre, PLEASE hurry and post a vid, NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!:msp_w00t:


----------



## WoodChuck'r

[video=youtube;F0FBi5Rv1ho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0FBi5Rv1ho[/video]


Okay I'm feeling a little diverse at the moment. 

I mean who doesn't love the Gabe?!


----------



## blsnelling

WoodChuck'r said:


> Okay I'm feeling a little diverse at the moment.
> 
> I mean who doesn't love the Gabe?!


 
Sounds like something you should save for you and Andre's wedding, lol.


----------



## MacLaren

mdavlee said:


> Well I hope the husky wins since its mine. I don't think either is a bad choice.


 

Mike, that Stihl is a real runner for sure. But I think in the end, the Husqvarna will be atleast 10% faster. I say that because even w/out a MM the big Swede was only 4/10th behind the Stihl.


----------



## BlackAdder

ITWA. I think you mentioned that in the past you used to run Huskys. If so, did you run any 372s, and how do you think the 441CM compares?


----------



## dave k

ITWA , yes I am based in the R of I and said nothing about selling saws ? we are all part of EEC and as such you can buy from anywhere in that area and still comply with HSE as all items must comply with a base standard which is why a company down in London is doing a roaring trade in Stihl with it's very cheap saws !
If you do go down the road of the wrap then you will want to fit the heavy duty AV springs, they are avalible as a kit I just replaced a standard set on my standard 441 and it feels like a new saw. I have a 441 ported by Brad the OP of this thread and look forward to seeing the 441 CM when it's done as I work in mostly hardwoods Beech, Oak etc and find the extra power very useful.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

[video=youtube;N3vM7FZ_raQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3vM7FZ_raQ[/video]


----------



## Andyshine77

I'll be modding the exhaust tonight, and tomorrow I'll compare them for the final time.


----------



## tdi-rick

inthewoodsagain said:


> Yes I do live in North Yorks and NO I do not live in Tibet so you are correct! We live in remote North Yorks ie 18 miles from an independent filling station, and in winter months fuel ie petol gets stale.We have tried briggs equivalent but it is not a mistery that fuel is changing, and because I buy in bulk we have issues hence why i buy 25 litres drums of none branded Ultra oil from the manufacture.
> [snip]



Store your straight fuel in steel drums or jerry's and it won't go off.
It should be good for up to twelve months if sealed properly.

Store it in HDPE fuel containers and the aromatics contained in the fuel permeate the wall and disappear into the atmosphere leaving the fuel stuffed within a couple of months.


----------



## mdavlee

Looking forward to the videos tomorrow. Hopefully the weather will be nice for running saws tomorrow.


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

WoodChuck'r said:


> Okay this thread needs to die until the saw comparison is ready and once we know what the what-what is we can move on.
> 
> This thread is constantly bumped to the top and every time I hope it's saw info and it's usually anything but!
> 
> 
> Nik/Andre/Brad hurry up with this chit or I'll start posting lot's of gangsta rap videos!! I can't help but do it when I get bored!!
> 
> :spam:


 
Hi Jason.


----------



## FATGUY

I got another raffle ticket on the line for the 441. any takers?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Double or nothin' FATDUDE!


----------



## MacLaren

FATGUY said:


> I got another raffle ticket on the line for the 441. any takers?


 
You got it big guy.  I cant turn that down. ......Husqvarna wins-you buy me a ticket? Stihl wins i buy you one? Correct?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

BloodOnTheIce said:


> Hi Jason.


 
$up d00d.

How's yer hammer hangin' this evenin'??


----------



## FATGUY

WoodChuck'r said:


> Double or nothin' FATDUDE!


done, bought the 2nd one already...



MacLaren said:


> You got it big guy.  I cant turn that down. ......Husqvarna wins-you buy me a ticket? Stihl wins i buy you one? Correct?


 
done, alreay bought you one


----------



## WoodChuck'r

You better be workin' overtime this week old man. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## FATGUY

I ain't skeered, y'all are trustworthy and that 441 pulls like a diesel.... (so does the 576 in an even smoother way, but who's counting?)


----------



## MacLaren

FATGUY said:


> I ain't skeered, y'all are trustworthy and that 441 pulls like a diesel.... (so does the 576 in an even smoother way, but who's counting?)


 
LOL, that was cool man. Tell ya what, even if the Swede wins, I will buy you a ticket too!


----------



## WoodChuck'r

This place is a bromance beyond bromances. 


The truth is out. Now everyone's gonna know we're a buncha queers.


----------



## MacLaren

WoodChuck'r said:


> This place is a bromance beyond bromances.
> 
> 
> The truth is out. Now everyone's gonna know we're a buncha queers.


 
LMAO, atleast its for a good cause!


----------



## WoodChuck'r

FATGUY said:


> I ain't skeered, y'all are trustworthy and that 441 pulls like a diesel.... (so does the 576 in an even smoother way, but who's counting?)


 

You idiot these saws don't run on diesel! 

DERP DERP!!!


----------



## FATGUY

so now you tell me!!!


----------



## WoodChuck'r

It's all good d00d. 

I think this calls fo sum gangsta chit.


[video=youtube;F1odJ0EKnEs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1odJ0EKnEs[/video]


----------



## Andyshine77

Cough, cough. The muffler is done but I ran out of daylight. There's a baffle and a tube in these mufflers, so I couldn't just open up the existing port, or add a pipe without really digging into it.


----------



## MacLaren

The suspence......................................................:ah:


----------



## FATGUY

Alright, the testing's done but Andre's at my house drinking beer.....


----------



## MacLaren

FATGUY said:


> Alright, the testing's done but Andre's at my house drinking beer.....


 
HAHAHA! Very funny! Slow torture huh? :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## FATGUY

looks like there's gonna be some more raffle ticket sales.....


----------



## mdavlee

So they'll be more ticket sold you say:msp_smile: Does that mean that maybe the husky is stronger with a muffler mod?:help:


----------



## the westspartan

numbers! we want numbers!!!!!


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> Alright, the testing's done but Andre's at my house drinking beer.....


 
Slacker! Totally unacceptable!


----------



## the westspartan

You guys are killing me!


----------



## blsnelling

Matters not whether the Stihl came in first or not. It won't even be close here shortly


----------



## Philbert

blsnelling said:


> Matters not whether the Stihl came in first or not. It won't even be close here shortly



Even if the STIHL came in first, the Husqvarna guys will say that it came in 'second to last'.

Philbert


----------



## Andyshine77

Well I have the numbers, not sure if I want to post them or not.:dribble:


----------



## MacLaren

My little girl woke up bright and early at 0530..............:tire:



.....and now I see what Andre just said.....aint lookin good for team Sweden..............:too_sad:


----------



## Andyshine77

MacLaren said:


> My little girl woke up bright and early at 0530..............:tire:
> 
> 
> 
> .....and now I see what Andre just said.....aint lookin good for team Sweden..............:too_sad:


 
Hold on there bro, you never know.

I'm up with a bad headache, and no beer has nothing to do with it.:msp_unsure:


----------



## MacLaren

Okey dokey! Never thought beer had aything to do with it..........well, maybee a wee bit...........lol.

Were cool man, but the suspence is a little much!


----------



## Andyshine77

I've had a hell of a time with Youtube tonight, I've loaded the video three times now with no success, maybe the fourth time will work.


----------



## MacLaren

Andyshine77 said:


> I've had a hell of a time with Youtube tonight, I've loaded the video three times now with no success, maybe the fourth time will work.


 
Well, if it dosent, then dont worry about it. Lay down and try to get that headache to go away. The wife just got up and gave me a reprieve, so thats what i'm gonna do.......BTW, thanks again for takin the time to do all this Andy.


----------



## Andyshine77

MacLaren said:


> Well, if it dosent, then dont worry about it. Lay down and try to get that headache to go away. The wife just got up and gave me a reprieve, so thats what i'm gonna do.......BTW, thanks again for takin the time to do all this Andy.


 
I enjoyed running the saws/toys. Yes it did take time and some effort, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat.


----------



## Terry Syd

This is an interesting thread for the simple reason it relates to the issue of jetting/mixture. People are reporting rave reviews on saws that have the same porting, muffler and carb size, but have a carburetor that gives more optimum mixture control. 

I have to wonder where the interest was over the years in getting a standard carburetor jetted correctly. A lot of you guys have come from backgrounds of building other engines and I would bet big time that you spent some time working on the mixture control for those engines. However, when it comes to chainsaws, that bit of understanding about tuning just didn't make the transition to the diaphragm carb.

It would be real interesting to see how close a reworked stock carb (probably using different pop-off pressures) would get to the new electronic carbs.


----------



## Andyshine77

No matter how you look at the numbers the 576 has a lower average cut time than the 441. Even if you take out the fastest and slowest times the 576 still comes out on top, I'm actually shocked. I truly thought the 441 was faster, I even said so in the video. Take note how strong perception is, and can be. 

You can tell right away the 576 responded well to the MM, the throttle response is much better, still not quite as fast as the 441, but it's very close. Muffler mods seem to work really well on both saws, they truly feel like hot rods right out of the box. I was leaning toward the 441 this whole time, but now knowing the 576 has the power, I think it's a more complete package, than the 441. The 576 build quality is what really stands out to me, as Nik said it's seamless. Like with most pro saws it really comes down to dealer support, or simply what you like. 

Here are all the times 

576-AT 

14.99
14.18
13.96
14.88
14.23
14.96
Average time 14.53333

441-M

16.15
14.06
14.94
13.15
14.87
15.76
Average time 14.82167

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WcYSHLwx3yU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As you can see we're really splitting hairs, the times are so close it really comes down to variations in the wood and the operator, I really call it a tie.


----------



## Stihlman441

Nice job there Andy with the vids and reports.
Cant say i have ever been cuttin wood in shorts,white socks and sneakerys,what ever works for you mate.:biggrin:


----------



## Andyshine77

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice job there Andy with the vids and reports.
> Cant say i have ever been cuttin wood in shorts,white socks and sneakerys,what ever works for you mate.:biggrin:


 
I knew that was coming.:cool2:


----------



## AUSSIE1

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice job there Andy with the vids and reports.
> Cant say i have ever been cuttin wood in shorts,white socks and sneakerys,what ever works for you mate.:biggrin:


 
Andrew that's been Andy's signature cutting outfit for years.

Thanks Andy for your efforts, great/interesting reading.

BTW, what would Nik know....he's just a piss head!


----------



## the westspartan

Great job Andre!!!!! So what your saying, is that Stihl can do with 70.7cc what it takes Husky 73.?cc to do! Just kidding.:jester: They both look mean. I really can't wait to see what Brad is going to do with that 441. And I REALLY can't wait until mine comes in this week. I have always liked the feel of those 576s, but my preferred local dealer only carries Stihl, and the 441 has proven itself to me over and over again.

The thing that really sold me on the M-tronic carb, at least in theory, is that with milling it should keep optimal tune through the whole cut. As it is now, with the standard carb. You give up a little power with a fat tune, so that at the end of the cut you, when the saw is hot, you are close to right. This obviously leads to fairly extreme heat swings in a day with a lot of milling. I have noticed a lot of what I consider carbon staining, from heat on my piston when I pull the cylinder off. It is nice and smooth but the piston has blackened areas on it down below the rings. It still has good compression. My hope is that the m-tronic set up will alleviate this to some degree.


----------



## FATGUY

Great work Andre! Brad and Dave you guys rock! I can assure you all that both saws are just great and you couldn't go wrong with either one. I was actually quite disapointed when Andre told me he thought the 441 was MUCH stronger. Worst thing that can happen in a comparison like this is a blowout.


----------



## Andyshine77

Dan. Yes carbon staining as you call it, is a good indication the saws running really hard, common with strong running ported saw. No doubt the 441 is a proven saw, and most who run them love them, and the M-tronic makes them even better.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> Great work Andre! Brad and Dave you guys rock! I can assure you all that both saws are just great and you couldn't go wrong with either one. I was actually quite disapointed when Andre told me he thought the 441 was MUCH stronger. Worst thing that can happen in a comparison like this is a blowout.


 
Thanks Nik.

I'm still a bit shocked at the outcome, the 576 is a bit of a sleeper.


----------



## young

Thanks to Andyshine77, FATGUY, mdavlee and blsnelling, looks like theres TWO more saws I want now. hahaha

Really thanks guys.


----------



## komatsuvarna

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm up with a bad headache, and no beer has nothing to do with it.:msp_unsure:



Oh ya, means ya quit too early!:biggrin:


----------



## dave k

Thankyou Nik Brad and Andy, it's great to see the old Andy back with good positive input.
I did'nt care which was fastest it was in my book all about proving the new systems worked and worked well and could be easily altered, in this case a MM, and still work correctly. 
Again thanks for your time and of course mdavlee for the Husky !


----------



## mdavlee

Well they stayed close even with the muffler mods. I think it was good one didn't walk away from the other.

You guys are welcome. Didn't want the 441 to get all the glory around here


----------



## MacLaren

Perception is just something else man. It just goes to prove that you have to put a clock on them to really see which is faster. I'm glad the Husky took well to the MM. The Stihl did great. I thought the Husqvarna would be stronger by a wider margin than shown.


----------



## WoodChuck'r




----------



## mdavlee

I just watched the video and I would have guessed from just watching and listening the 441 was stronger. It does have a different sound than the 576. It seems like the 441 is like the 372 with it being louder and all with the 576 is just kinda lumbering along but cutting just as fast.

Now I need to figure out what bar to get for the 576. I sold all my 28" bars except the stihl light. All I have is 24" and a 30" cannon.


----------



## woodworkorange

I think this has been one of the best threads i've seen in ages, and I'd like to thank Andyshine, Fatguy, Blsnelling and Mdavlee for all their effert, time and contributions in making it happen. 

Many thanks guys.


----------



## MacLaren

mdavlee said:


> I just watched the video and I would have guessed from just watching and listening the 441 was stronger. It does have a different sound than the 576. It seems like the 441 is like the 372 with it being louder and all with the 576 is just kinda lumbering along but cutting just as fast.
> 
> Now I need to figure out what bar to get for the 576. I sold all my 28" bars except the stihl light. All I have is 24" and a 30" cannon.


 
Remember that PS-7300? Man, you just have to put a clock on them.....


----------



## FATGUY

mdavlee said:


> I just watched the video and I would have guessed from just watching and listening the 441 was stronger. It does have a different sound than the 576. It seems like the 441 is like the 372 with it being louder and all with the 576 is just kinda lumbering along but cutting just as fast.
> 
> Now I need to figure out what bar to get for the 576. *I sold all my 28" bars except the stihl light*. All I have is 24" and a 30" cannon.


 
just use the light bar, the saw will come back with the spacers


----------



## mdavlee

Thanks Nik, I guess I need to buy another bar for the 660 then.  I've been wanting another 32" light weight bar anyway. I guess this will give me a good excuse to get one. 

Are any of you guys going to terrys gtg on the 1st?


----------



## FATGUY

gonna try and make it, haven't been to a gtg this year. I'm thinking it's possible that Andre, Brad, Mike and myself may show up.


----------



## mdavlee

If you guys do then you can just bring the 576 down. I'll get Paul or Anthony to pick it up and bring it home. That will save shipping money.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> gonna try and make it, haven't been to a gtg this year. I'm thinking it's possible that Andre, Brad, Mike and myself may show up.


 
I would love to have you guys ride along. I definately plan on going.

A few comments on the saws.

I really like how you can hear that both are nice and rich at WOT, but then instantly clean out when they hit the wood.

The "shifting gears" of the 441 appears to be totally gone! That really pleases me. That was my only real complaint with the saw.

I'm curious why are the 441 cut times spread across a 3 second range while the Husky is within 1 second? Right there is why the Husky came out ahead I couldn't pick up on the difference myself in watching the vid. Nothing obvious.

Thanks for all the hard work you put into this Andre. I personally know it doesn't just happen by itself. Thanks for paying for the fuel to break in my saw for me How did you end up modding the 576 muffler? Much difference in area compared to the 441?

Bottom line, it looks like both brands have nailed it. Both look like they run flawlessly and very strong. Everyone's a winner here!


----------



## mdavlee

If it wasn't for Andre agreeing to do this there wouldn't have been a comparison between the 2. I know I don't have time to do it with work right now. I know him and Nik need some rep for doing all the work with this.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I would love to have you guys ride along. I definately plan on going.
> 
> A few comments on the saws.
> 
> I really like how you can hear that both are nice and rich at WOT, but then instantly clean out when they hit the wood.
> 
> The "shifting gears" of the 441 appears to be totally gone! That really pleases me. That was my only real complaint with the saw.



It's not completely gone, every now and then you can still feel the saw surge.



blsnelling said:


> I'm curious why are the 441 cut times spread across a 3 second range while the Husky is within 1 second? Right there is why the Husky came out ahead I couldn't pick up on the difference myself in watching the vid. Nothing obvious.



I have no idea why a few of the times were that far apart, I swapped saws every three cuts to make as fair as I could. 



blsnelling said:


> Thanks for all the hard work you put into this Andre. I personally know it doesn't just happen by itself. Thanks for paying for the fuel to break in my saw for me How did you end up modding the 576 muffler? Much difference in area compared to the 441?



I opened the exhaust about the same as the 441, the can had a baffle and a pipe in it so I couldn't just cut a hole in the side and add a deflector or pipe. I ended up cutting a hole through the top. 




blsnelling said:


> Bottom line, it looks like both brands have nailed it. Both look like they run flawlessly and very strong. Everyone's a winner here!



I think both Stihl and Husky did their homework with each system, hopefully the auto tune setup will be offered on more saws in the near future.


----------



## GA_Boy

Well, i just have to say it............


*BAAAM! IN YOUR FACE STIHL HEADS!!!!!!!! LOL* :biggrin:

And a big thanks to Andre for taking the time to do this.


----------



## blsnelling

Let me make one point, one significant point. The Stihl had the fastest cut time by a significant margin. Had the Stihl not had a couple way high cut times, the average would have gone to the Stihl as well. Yes, I'm a Stihl head at heart. I can't help it My point being, NO ONE can claim a definate victory. The data simply doesn't support that.


----------



## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> Let me make one point, one significant point. The Stihl had the fastest cut time by a significant margin. Had the Stihl not had a couple way high cut times, the average would have gone to the Stihl as well. Yes, I'm a Stihl head at heart. I can't help it My point being, NO ONE can claim a definate victory. The data simply doesn't support that.


 
Brad.......come on man....Husqvarna STRAIGHT UP had faster times. IF a frog had wings it wouldnt bump its butt. Do it again, if your gonna say stuff like this, because we all see the 576 was faster. Im sorry, but thats ridiculous to try and say theres no definet winner.


----------



## FATGUY

you just have to run these saws to understand. I lean towards Stihl as well when comparing to Husqvarna but I simply LOVE both saws. Neither saw has a clear advantage over the other.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Let me make one point, one significant point. The Stihl had the fastest cut time by a significant margin. Had the Stihl not had a couple way high cut times, the average would have gone to the Stihl as well. Yes, I'm a Stihl head at heart. I can't help it My point being, NO ONE can claim a definate victory. The data simply doesn't support that.



Maybe for just one cut Brad the 441's computer went into kick ass mode when it felt threatened by the Husky? Even worse, what if the Husky was in "limp home" mode the whole time?


----------



## FATGUY

you guys realize we're dealing with less than 1/2 second over a 15 sec time


----------



## MacLaren

FATGUY said:


> you guys realize we're dealing with less than 1/2 second over a 15 sec time


 
I hear ya Big Nik, but at the end of the day Husqvarna was faster. Thats all.


----------



## Stihlman441

So whats going to happen when these saws are ported then ?.


----------



## TK

Gotta win consistently to become a champion


----------



## WoodChuck'r

I don't really give a rats @$$ which saw wins really. I'm not a competitive retard who's into bragging that they won by 2 thousandths of a second.

BUT in the racing world - winning is winning. And winning goes way beyond chainsaw racing as we all know. 

Both saws run good - one may be "faster" across the board but these are woods saws cutting big, barked, knotty wood. For this to be considered a "real test" there's too many variables (as Andre already pointed out). To test it properly you'd have to get 8x8 clean pine, 16" bars, run the same chain, make a few cuts and average the times - boom, that's your winner. 

But I'm not suggesting that such a project gets done, nor am I slandering the methods used to make the comparison used. This is just merely comparison and not a race. Racing is a whole different animal than comparing. Obviously racing is comparing, but you guys know what I'm getting at. To make it a race is too much work and there's a lot more whining involved, lol. 

So far so good I'd say. 


Well I think it's about time to take a nap then a poop. Anyone care to join me.....??


----------



## blsnelling

No one kicked anyones butt here, period. We're only talking about a couple tenths of a second over a 14 second cut. Throw in the huge variance in cut times with the 441. Throw in the fact that the 441 had the fastest cut time by a fair margin. Throw in the fact that the 441 holds higher RPMs in the cut. That doesn't add up to the 576 being a clear winner. Even Andre himself called it a tie. Before anyone gets too excited, remember this is supposed to be fun. I'm not interested in making this anything less.


----------



## blsnelling

WoodChuck'r said:


> I don't really give a rats @$$ which saw wins really. I'm not a competitive retard who's into bragging that they won by 2 thousandths of a second.
> 
> BUT in the racing world - winning is winning. And winning goes way beyond chainsaw racing as we all know.
> 
> Both saws run good - one may be "faster" across the board but these are woods saws cutting big, barked, knotty wood. For this to be considered a "real test" there's too many variables (as Andre already pointed out). To test it properly you'd have to get 8x8 clean pine, 16" bars, run the same chain, make a few cuts and average the times - boom, that's your winner.
> 
> But I'm not suggesting that such a project gets done, nor am I slandering the methods used to make the comparison used. This is just merely comparison and not a race. Racing is a whole different animal than comparing. Obviously racing is comparing, but you guys know what I'm getting at. To make it a race is too much work and there's a lot more whining involved, lol.
> 
> So far so good I'd say.
> 
> 
> Well I think it's about time to take a nap then a poop. Anyone care to join me.....??


 
A HUGE +1 Jason!


----------



## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> No one kicked anyones butt here, period. We're only talking about a couple tenths of a second over a 14 second cut. Throw in the huge variance in cut times with the 441. Throw in the fact that the 441 had the fastest cut time by a fair margin. Throw in the fact that the 441 holds higher RPMs in the cut. That doesn't add up to the 576 being a clear winner. Even Andre himself called it a tie. Before anyone gets too excited, remember this is supposed to be fun. I'm not interested in making this anything less.


 
But.....you've also got to throw in the facts that the Husky is smoother, that the Husky had a faster average, the fact that Andre himself liked the Autotune of the Husqvarna better, the fact that the "shifting gearsin the 441 wasnt gone" Dont get me wrong here guys, but NOT giving Husqvarna its due props here is totally unfair.


----------



## blsnelling

MacLaren said:


> But.....you've also got to throw in the facts that the Husky is smoother, that the Husky had a faster average, the fact that Andre himself liked the Autotune of the Husqvarna better, the fact that the "shifting gearsin the 441 wasnt gone" Dont get me wrong here guys, but NOT giving Husqvarna its due props here is totally unfair.


 
I'm not trying to take anything away from the Husky. Both of these saws are excellent. I always TRY to remain objective in any saw comparison. That's why I'm pointing out what I an.


----------



## woodworkorange

It's true the 441 did have the fastest cut time, however, it also had the slowest cut time by some margin.
In racing consistency is everything, and in motor racing the car having the fastest lap, does not necessarily win the race (very often it does not) what is important is overall race time. The shortest time to complete the race IS the winner. In this case the husky completed the 6 cuts in the shortest time, it IS the winner.

Shortest race time, Fastest average, First past the post, whatever you call it, the 576 IS the winner. :msp_tongue:


----------



## blsnelling

woodworkorange said:


> It's true the 441 did have the fastest cut time, however, it also had the slowest cut time by some margin.
> In racing consistency is everything, and in motor racing the car having the fastest lap, does not necessarily win the race (very often it does not) what is important is overall race time. The shortest time to complete the race IS the winner. In this case the husky completed the 6 cuts in the shortest time, it IS the winner.
> 
> Shortest race time, Fastest average, First past the post, whatever you call it, the 576 IS the winner. :msp_tongue:


 You're leaving out operator and wood inconsistencies, which are always present. That's likely the cause of the time differences of the 441, but not necessarily.


----------



## FATGUY

guys, S T F U and quit squabling. The results are what they are. The test is what it is. I ran both saws first hand and they're both fricken awesome.


----------



## woodworkorange

In all racing (all forms of racing) despite the level playing field of consistent rules and conditions for all those competing, there will always be a reason/reasons why one is faster than the other on the day. These reasons/conditions/inconsistencies whatever you call them do not change the fact the somebody/something won a particular race on a particular day. 

It could be argued that the 441 had one fast cut because it hit a soft bit of wood, similarly it may have hit a couple of hard bits of wood. My own view is that it could also be down to the software/firmware running the saw. I seem to recall some comments along the lines of the Husky tuning seeming to be more refined than the stihl . I believe I'm right in thinking the husky AT has been around longer than the stihl mtronic (I may be completely wrong). This being the case it may just be that the husky software/firmware has been tweaked over time, while the stihl is an early version.

The modififcation/refinement over time of firmware/software in computers and devices like smart phones etc is common practice, and it would not suprise me if saw manufactures did the same thing. It may well be that 441s and (576s) will be running updated firmware in 12 months time, with better parameters and performance characteristics. You may even be able to replace the module on an old saw with a new one and improve the way the saw runs, who knows. Interesting times for sure.

i agree both saws look great, and in the real world there would be nothing between them. And again I'd like to thank you and the guys for all your effert and time put in to the test.

P.S. 
Husky is still the winner though. :biggrin:


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

FATGUY said:


> guys, S T F U and quit squabling. The results are what they are. The test is what it is. I ran both saws first hand and they're both fricken awesome.


 
You're wrong one saw is a speed demon, faster than the speed of light and the other is a dog that can't cut it's self out of a wet paper bag!

Stihl might as well close the doors, the new king is a muffler moded 576AT!

All hail the greatest saw ever made!




By the way how did these two saws compare without the variable of a muffler mod thrown in?
I don't have the patience to go back and find that.


----------



## Slamm

BloodOnTheIce said:


> You're wrong one saw is a speed demon, faster than the speed of light and the other is a dog that can't cut it's self out of a wet paper bag!
> 
> Stihl might as well close the doors, the new king is a muffler moded 576AT!
> 
> All hail the greatest saw ever made!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way how did these two saws compare without the variable of a muffler mod thrown in?
> I don't have the patience to go back and find that.


 
I didn't think they ever raced the 441 without being MM. Regardless, I'll take the 441 M-Tronics ............ no better yet, I'll take two, LOL.

Sam


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Anyone ever crap the size of a pringles can and think "Hey, that's how much d##k I can take!"........??


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

We are talking about 2 saws with less than 1/2 second between them, right? I would think either one would make anybody here a great saw.


----------



## BloodOnTheIce

WoodChuck'r said:


> I don't really give a rats @$$ which saw wins really. I'm not a competitive retard who's into bragging that they won by 2 thousandths of a second.
> 
> 
> 
> Both saws run good - one may be "faster" across the board but these are woods saws cutting big, barked, knotty wood. For this to be considered a "real test" there's too many variables (as Andre already pointed out). To test it properly you'd have to get 8x8 clean pine, 16" bars, run the same chain, make a few cuts and average the times - boom, that's your winner.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I think it's about time to take a nap then a poop. Anyone care to join me.....??



1. I AM that competitive retard! I'd love to be able to brag about beating someone by .002 of a second!

2. You're absolutely right, this sort of "racing" is like street drag racing, absolutely pointless
you're not racing for money, or anything, just bragging rights. Racing saws is done in consistent
wood, with as few variables as possible, done with significantly modified, or bone stock saws. 


3.I'd love a nap right now but at work on my lunch break maybe later.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> guys, S T F U and quit squabling. The results are what they are. The test is what it is. I ran both saws first hand and they're both fricken awesome.


 
Unfortunately, you will always have people read more into a comparison than what it is. VERY few will put fourth the effort for this kind off thing though. Don't take it personal. You guys enjoyed doing this and don't let anyone take that away from you.


----------



## the westspartan

WoodChuck'r said:


> Anyone ever crap the size of a pringles can and think "Hey, that's how much d##k I can take!"........??


 
No LOL!!!


----------



## WoodChuck'r

[video=youtube;YfY1lfFu8j8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfY1lfFu8j8[/video]


----------



## rms61moparman

AHEM!.......


I'm not surprised at all.
I told you last weekend that this was gonna be the outcome.

Both are fine machines and would be great firewood saws.
I wonder :msp_confused: how an AK77 ported 372 would compare to them?????


Mike


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> You're leaving out operator and wood inconsistencies, which are always present. That's likely the cause of the time differences of the 441, but not necessarily.


 
Brad I could have taken out the bad numbers from both saws, but I felt like including every cut to try and make as fair as I could. Yes if you take the three fastest cuts from both saws the 441 comes out ahead, way way ahead:msp_unsure: 14.121333 for the 576 and 14.06 for the 441. That is a tie in my book and not as far apart as I think you were thinking. Bottom line the 441 made the fastest cut, but also the two slowest, the 576 was more consistent and easier to run IMHO.


----------



## rms61moparman

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad I could have taken out the bad numbers from both saws, but I felt like including every cut to try and make as fair as I could. Yes if you take the three fastest cuts from both saws the 441 comes out ahead, way way ahead:msp_unsure: 14.121333 for the 576 and 14.06 for the 441. That is a tie in my book and not as far apart as I think you were thinking. *Bottom line the 441 made the fastest cut, but also the two slowest, the 576 was more consistent and easier to run IMHO*.


 



As a cheap old Bas+ard that wants a dollars worth of value for every nickel I spend, I would take the Husky over the Stihl every time.
Maybe after some more refinements on the Stihl, that could change, but they have a way to go to catch the Husky for ME.
JMHO
But I'm JUST a firewood cutter.


Mike


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad I could have taken out the bad numbers from both saws, but I felt like including every cut to try and make as fair as I could. Yes if you take the three fastest cuts from both saws the 441 comes out ahead, way way ahead:msp_unsure: 14.121333 for the 576 and 14.06 for the 441. That is a tie in my book and not as far apart as I think you were thinking. Bottom line the 441 made the fastest cut, but also the two slowest, the 576 was more consistent and easier to run IMHO.


 
That's basically the point I've been trying to make. Both saws are winners and neither saw ran away with it. I'm not trying to take anything away from the Husky. What I'm trying to stop is those that want to say one or the other ran away with this comparison. They simply did not. That's how "old wives tales" on the forum are started. It took years to debunk the myth that the 441 was a dog and that it didn't respond well to mods. That's been proven to simply not be true.

My biggest concern with the variance in cut times of the 441 is this. What if they're a result of inconsistent tuning, from cut to cut? We've already been told that it's not as seemless as the 576. The "shifting gears" was the first thing I noticed right out of the box, and is my only real concern with this saw. I didn't like it at all. With that said, I didn't notice it at all the last time I ran it, after Andre had put some fuel through it. I also didn't hear it at all in the last vid, but Andre's says it's still there to some extent. He told me that sometime it feels super strong and other times not so much. That's what the stop watch says too. IMHO, the tuning should be 110% transparent to the operator. I don't see how anything less could be efficient. The Husky has that department nailed. Big kudos on that. 

I may swap out the AV springs with the standard ones, just to get additional input from Andre and Nik. I honestly haven't run it enough to give a fair comparison.


----------



## Stihlman441

Anyway what ever the result i will be getting a MS441 R C M-Tronic.


----------



## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> I wonder :msp_confused: how an AK77 ported 372 would compare to them?????
> 
> 
> Mike


 
That wouldn't be a race


----------



## indiansprings

It's truly sad that all these type post turn out to be a pizzing match. Can't people just appreciate the time and effort put into the process. When you get as close as these two saws are they are clearly both winners. In real world cutting conditions a 1/2 second doesn't mean chit, just like in the 372 build off, different wood, and different operators showed a wide variance in cut times, even using the same operator you can never duplicate a cut exactly, you just do the best you can. 
I'm sure I could get along with either saw, depending where you live it could boil down to where you could get the best price and service, rather than pure brand loyalty. 
Great job guys.


----------



## Officer's Match

I agree. In my neck of the woods, I actually have better Dolmar dealer support than Husky, but Stihl is walking distance, X2 actually. If they were equally convenient support-wise, I might opt for the uber-smooth Swede, but thats not the case, so I'm thinking the rowdy sounding 441R C-M will be my next saw. Anxious to see how it the Snellerization works out...


----------



## GA_Boy

WoodChuck'r said:


> Anyone ever crap the size of a pringles can and think "Hey, that's how much d##k I can take!"........??


 
Uhm, gee man, i'm not even sure how to respond to that....Have those thoughts often?


----------



## homelitejim

blsnelling said:


> Unfortunately, you will always have people read more into a comparison than what it is. VERY few will put fourth the effort for this kind off thing though. Don't take it personal. You guys enjoyed doing this and don't let anyone take that away from you.



That is why I am not racing off to trade in my standard stock ms441 for either of these saws. The important thing is how much fun it was to follow along and see what happens. Good job to all that were involved this was a good read.


----------



## young

homelitejim said:


> That is why I am not racing off to trade in my standard stock ms441 for either of these saws. The important thing is how much fun it was to follow along and see what happens. Good job to all that were involved this was a good read.


 
but now for the money if anyone is in the market for a 441 or 576 these electronic versions should be seriously considered.


----------



## anymanusa

Just got my cm yesterday. Just put it in some wood today. 18&25" bars, ill do a thread with pics later. Im very happy with the saw so far.


----------



## Rudolf73

Thought I'd lighten the mood a little...

Miss December knows a good saw when she see's one  







(MS441C)


----------



## Slamm

There's a saw in that photo??? Where??

Sam


----------



## Slamm

WoodChuck'r said:


> I was born in December that means her and I have to have sex.
> 
> 
> It's the law.


 
I already did.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

WoodChuck'r said:


> You and 138 others.....


 
What are you saying, she's a whore? or just friendly? I though she just loved me, but I guess, she lied. I still haven't found the saw, where is it?

Is this an ad for something or just a photo of her?

Sam


----------



## Philbert

young said:


> but now for the money if anyone is in the market for a 441 or 576 these electronic versions should be seriously considered.


 
Wait till the 461 becomes available - it will all start again . . . 

Philbert


----------



## parrisw

WoodChuck'r said:


> I was born in December that means her and I have to have sex.
> 
> 
> It's the law.


 
Someone as FUGLY as yourself can't have sex with a lady as attractive as her!! Its the LAW!!!


----------



## Stihlman441

I reckon Mis December needs a good feed,like what are ya going to hang on to,anyway dont think she could lift much in the way of firewood,not bad to look at but not very usefull.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Rudolf73

Stihlman441 said:


> I reckon Mis December needs a good feed,like what are ya going to hang on to,anyway dont think she could lift much in the way of firewood,not bad to look at but not very usefull.:hmm3grin2orange:


 
Haha Andrew, don't be so hard on her... she doesn't need to lift much firewood to be useful


----------



## saxman

She is definately a riding pony not a work horse. Both are very useful, just not in the same applications.


----------



## Officer's Match

Oh, I'd say she's lifted a lot of wood...


----------



## blsnelling

This sex crap is getting a little over the top, don't you think?


----------



## Slamm

blsnelling said:


> This sex crap is getting a little over the top, don't you think?


 
Sorry Brad, I was honestly trying to find the saw in the photo. If I cover up portions of the screen, I begin to notice there is one on the left hand side.

Sam


----------



## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> This sex crap is getting a little over the top, don't you think?


 
nope


----------



## blsnelling

WoodChuck'r said:


> Anyone ever crap the size of a pringles can and think "Hey, that's how much d##k I can take!"........??


 


FATGUY said:


> nope


 
Please tell me this isn't you, lol!


----------



## FATGUY

what happens in the bathroom stays in the bathroom


----------



## rms61moparman

FATGUY said:


> what happens in the bathroom stays in the bathroom


 


Obviously, you never knew my Mother!!!


Mike


----------



## FATGUY

rms61moparman said:


> obviously, you never knew my mother!!!
> 
> 
> Mike


 
:d


----------



## AUSSIE1

blsnelling said:


> This sex crap is getting a little over the top, don't you think?


 
Nice hot cup of tea and bikkies then?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Brad is right, you guys are all so immature....


----------



## gcsupraman

Just picked up my 441RCM and got to use it for about 5 minutes....

Not initially very impressed - thought it would have a lot more power and the choke lever is super low budget. The choke literally feels like it's bending when putting in on. I have to read the manual tonight to make sure I'm doing everything correctly and there isn't some special procedure.

Anyway, I'm hoping it will come alive after a few tanks of gas like others reported. The stock bar oiling setting might need to be adjusted for a 25" bar.

-Greg


----------



## blsnelling

I picked up the 441 from Andre yesterday. Today I got to run it with the 28" bar nearly buried in some serious hardwood. Wow, what 6-8 tanks of fuel did to this thing. I progressed from a light load to nearly lugging it, and then back to light load, and noticed absolutely none of the "gear shifting" it had when new. I'm now very pleased with the performance of the saw. It is definately a very strong saw for being stock. If you're looking for a new 70cc saw, this saw will definately please. Sometime in the next 2-3 weeks I hope to be porting it.


----------



## homelitejim

blsnelling said:


> I picked up the 441 from Andre yesterday. Today I got to run it with the 28" bar nearly buried in some serious hardwood. Wow, what 6-8 tanks of fuel did to this thing. I progressed from a light load to nearly lugging it, and then back to light load, and noticed absolutely none of the "gear shifting" it had when new. I'm now very pleased with the performance of the saw. It is definately a very strong saw for being stock. If you're looking for a new 70cc saw, this saw will definately please. Sometime in the next 2-3 weeks I hope to be porting it.


 
did you happen to get any of that on film? Looking forward to seeing it.


----------



## blsnelling

I didn't. I don't know what all cowroy got. He captured a LOT of different videos today.


----------



## young

brad you had me video your stock 440 vs 441cm with 28in bars on them.


----------



## FATGUY

now that's a video I'd love to see.


----------



## inthewoodsagain

*MM- 441 muffler mod!!*



j.williams said:


> Did a MM last week and finally took the time to take a couple pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 199001
> View attachment 199002


 
Have just got some genuine mod stihl mufflers back for fitting and involved nothing more than 34mm dia hole and knerl-ended s/s pipe and a Vgood s/s welder. After tune the power is sme as 460 but does need more bar oil and juice.
chain is RSC3/8 and bar is 25" duro E or 30" duro E or 16" duromatic but am Very happy so what ever. All run on stihl oils and Ultra oilfor petrol. Thanks.


----------



## Stihlman441

Any news on the ported saws ?.:msp_sleep:


----------



## young

Stihlman you get your 441 yet?


----------



## Stihlman441

It cleared Ozzy Customs today so wont be long.:msp_biggrin:


----------



## porsche965

opcorn:


----------



## young

Stihlman441 said:


> It cleared Ozzy Customs today so wont be long.:msp_biggrin:


 
i know you got fuel, oil, bar and chain ready. BUT you got some wood ready??!?!?!?!?!:msp_scared:


----------



## Stihlman441

young said:


> i know you got fuel, oil, bar and chain ready. BUT you got some wood ready??!?!?!?!?!:msp_scared:


 
Ya mate i have been stocking up got a heap of that US type wood PINE to run her in with.(sorry couldnt help myself):smile2:


----------



## blsnelling

I haven't had time to play with my own saws Who ported yours, Stihlman?


----------



## anymanusa

gcsupraman said:


> Just picked up my 441RCM and got to use it for about 5 minutes....
> 
> Not initially very impressed - thought it would have a lot more power and the choke lever is super low budget. The choke literally feels like it's bending when putting in on. I have to read the manual tonight to make sure I'm doing everything correctly and there isn't some special procedure.
> 
> Anyway, I'm hoping it will come alive after a few tanks of gas like others reported. The stock bar oiling setting might need to be adjusted for a 25" bar.
> 
> -Greg


 
You have to depress the gas before you push the choke lever.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya mate i have been stocking up got a heap of that US type wood PINE to run her in with.(sorry couldnt help myself):smile2:


 
What...pine? :msp_w00t: Will be like cutting a dunny roll with that tweaked beast! :msp_wink:


----------



## Stihlman441

Ya right Al,but i wont her to feel at home cutting soft wood first then slowly get into the good stuff,dont wont her to see the hard stuff straight off and put her hands in the air and wont to go home.:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## Rudolf73

AUSSIE1 said:


> What...pine? :msp_w00t: Will be like cutting a dunny roll with that tweaked beast! :msp_wink:


 
Hahaha, best comparison ever Al! 






Sorry for going off track Brad


----------



## Stihlman441

blsnelling said:


> I haven't had time to play with my item saws Who ported yours, Stihlman?


 
Same as Johns.


----------



## blsnelling

Stihlman441 said:


> Same as Johns.


 
Excellent. His looks like a real runner.


----------



## Stihlman441

My ported 441C has arrived.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/183178.htm


----------



## porsche965

Ill be right over....


----------



## eat a peach

WoodChuck'r said:


> Heh there's that "eat a peach" guy in this this thread now.
> 
> He's eventually gonna have to post and tell us all why he chose that name, lol.


Big fan of southern blues rock. The original Allman Brothers Band with Duane Allman had an album named Eat A Peach. One of my alltime favorites. I was listening to it when I found this site hence the name.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Glad you finally answered. I've brought your name up in many threads in the past every time I saw you lurking at the bottom of the page.

Thanks for that.


----------



## eat a peach

WoodChuck'r said:


> Glad you finally answered. I've brought your name up in many threads in the past every time I saw you lurking at the bottom of the page.
> 
> Thanks for that.


 never noticed before are you a fan of ALLMAN Bro's?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

eat a peach said:


> never noticed before are you a fan of ALLMAN Bro's?


 

Not as much as Nine Inch Nails.


----------



## blsnelling

Things are getting caught up around here and I finally tore into the 441 last night. I haven't degreed it or pulled the jug yet. Man, what a pain these are to work on! I have a pile of bolts just getting to the cylinder. This it's not a saw you're going to yank the jug in 5 minutes like most other pro saws. Anyway, here are some pics of the electronics. This is one carb I won't be messing with!


----------



## mdavlee

That does look way more complicated than the 576. It comes apart relatively easy. I think 5 bolts to get the whole carb assembly out.


----------



## Stihlman441

I think it is amassing how something so small can control every thing,how do you richen it up ?.:cool2:


----------



## blsnelling

All it has to do is monitor RPMs and adjust accordingly.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> That does look way more complicated than the 576. It comes apart relatively easy. I think 5 bolts to get the whole carb assembly out.


 
I agree!! just from looking at both saws the 576 looked way easier to work on. Now the 362 and 261 are pretty easy to wrench on.


----------



## parrisw

So it only uses RPM to figure out fuel?? That's pretty crude if it does.


----------



## Stihlman441

Sorry guys but i think there is more to it that that,the only way to find out is do a port job for rpm lets say 15000 and see what happens,but i think you will be looking for a new cylinder after that.
Then what would i know i have just started playing with one.:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## Andyshine77

Stihlman441 said:


> Sorry guys but i think there is more to it that that,the only way to find out is do a port job for rpm lets say 15000 and see what happens,but i think you will be looking for a new cylinder after that.
> Then what would i know i have just started playing with one.:msp_thumbsup:


 
This has been posted before, it really is a simple system. http://www.arboristsite.com/attachments/chainsaw/194694d1313552933-ti_01_2010_30_01_02-pdf


----------



## Stihlman441

Port and Modd away then.opcorn:


----------



## PEKS

Does the Wrap Handle and extra spike causing any difficulty when removing the bar and chain and/or cleaning.
Thanks..


----------



## blsnelling

It its just that simple, and quite effective. I don't have the link, but someone posted a doc from Stihl that explained how it works. It monitors RPM, then pulls a little fuel. If it speeds up, it figures it was rich and does it again. In this fashion, it constantly watches RPMs and adjusts the fuel accordingly. The result? A saw that's always tinged for max RPMs on the cut. Didn't get any better than that!


----------



## forestryworks

PEKS said:


> Does the Wrap Handle and extra spike causing any difficulty when removing the bar and chain and/or cleaning.
> Thanks..



Why would it?


----------



## PEKS

_Why would it? _
It appears the wrap handle goes in front of the cover to access sprocket.
I take it, it does not interfere..


----------



## forestryworks

PEKS said:


> _Why would it? _
> It appears the wrap handle goes in front of the cover to access sprocket.
> I take it, it does not interfere..


 
Sure doesn't.


----------



## Slamm

PEKS said:


> _Why would it? _
> It appears the wrap handle goes in front of the cover to access sprocket.
> I take it, it does not interfere..


 
If you really like half wraps like I do, then you will complain about the 3/4 wrap, but in all honesty it only adds about 2-5 seconds of time to a bar removal process, it isn't a big deal. Also you can't spin the scrench around, full swing, you have to do partial turns which is slower, but like I said, minimal issue. 

I don't or can't use them because we cut a lot of lower stumps and honestly I have never seen the point in them for how I cut. I've tried them and they just get in the way. When I'm running a half wrap, I have never had a sudden desire to grab the saw in that location. 

I CAN see the point of them for higher stumps and larger trees, as then you can cut with the bottom of the bar and dawg it in much easier, I don't routinely cut that big of trees with bars of 36" and bigger, so it doesn't matter to me if I use the top of the bar or the bottom.

I wish Stihl sold the M-Tronics or other higher optioned saws with just a half wrap. I always have to get the full wrap and then get rid of it. I have a pile of 441 full wraps that I need to get rid of sometime.

Sam


----------



## PEKS

Sam,
Thanks for the details on the wrap handle, your explanation helps alot.
I haven't seen or tried the wrap handle yet.
I do not need a wrap, but many combos of the 441 M-Tronic model come with one.
Thanks again..


----------



## Stihlman441

If it costs you a extra $50 to get a standard handle so be it,all the other extras that come with the wrap model are worth it anyway.:smile2:


----------



## Slamm

Stihlman441 said:


> If it costs you a extra $50 to get a standard handle so be it,all the other extras that come with the wrap model are worth it anyway.:smile2:


 
Yep, the extra money is well spent on those Mtronics even if you have to pay extra to get the correct handle for it. I have enough of them, that I'm going to make chandiler out of them like they do with the deer antlers, LOL.

Sam


----------



## blsnelling

The 441 is ported and back together. I took it out, but there was something wrong with it. It wouldn't idle down, was running pig rich, so rich that it faltered off idle, and just wasn't right. I brought it home, removed the carb, checked things over, and put it back together. I also installed a new spark plug. It's now running perfect, instant throttle response, perfect idle, just a completely different animal. Unfortunately it's dark, and I won't be able to run it again until next week.


----------



## forestryworks

blsnelling said:


> Unfortunately it's dark, and I won't be able to run it again until next week.


 
Damn, that's a looooonnnnggggg night :msp_biggrin:


----------



## lone wolf

Andyshine77 said:


> This has been posted before, it really is a simple system. http://www.arboristsite.com/attachments/chainsaw/194694d1313552933-ti_01_2010_30_01_02-pdf


 
Any idea what it costs if it malfunctions?:help:


----------



## Andyshine77

lone wolf said:


> Any idea what it costs if it malfunctions?:help:


 
Nothing.


----------



## lone wolf

Andyshine77 said:


> Nothing.


 
for how long?


----------



## Andyshine77

lone wolf said:


> for how long?


 
AS long as you're alive.


----------



## lone wolf

Andyshine77 said:


> AS long as you're alive.


 
So are you saying a lifetime warranty on that part is offered by Stihl?


----------



## Andyshine77

lone wolf said:


> So are you saying a lifetime warranty on that part is offered by Stihl?


 
Do you like cotton candy? I do.


----------



## tlandrum

if it breaks down your out time and time is money in production falling, if your a pro the warranty is only 90 days on a stihl. i dont like the thought of having a saw tat i cant go to the truck and open up my saw box and grab the parts i need to get me back out on the job. of course most of the time i have a spare saw with me but i dont want to have to rely on a spare to make it through the day. i just dont really like the fact that the electronics to be diagnosed the saw needs to be plugged in to a computer. when things get to the point that the tried and true current models arent feasable to fix whether it be cost or availability ill get with the times. till then ill stick with what i know.


----------



## lone wolf

Andyshine77 said:


> Do you like cotton candy? I do.


 
WTF:msp_scared::msp_scared:


----------



## cowroy

I wished I would have run a 441 at the gtg but I guess it will have to wait till spring now.

Besides pulling a 28" bar better, what would be my thoughts of a Stihl 440 woods ported with a pop-up after running my Husky 372 woods ported with a pop-up? Like difference in feel, and fuel milage(milage not a big deal, I'd just like to know)? I love a 24" bar on this size saw so thats what would be on it.

Sorry bout the jack Brad, but I just don't like to start new threads.


----------



## MCW

tlandrum2002 said:


> if your a pro the warranty is only 90 days on a stihl.



That's interesting. In Australia the commercial warranty on Stihl equipment is 12 months and the homeowner is 24 months - same as Husky.


----------



## lone wolf

MCW said:


> That's interesting. In Australia the commercial warranty on Stihl equipment is 12 months and the homeowner is 24 months - same as Husky.


 
And we pay about 900.00 for one, that may be the reason to justify your higher prices .


----------



## tlandrum

the only way a homeowner can get 2 years on the warranty here is to buy the 6 pack of ultra.


----------



## blsnelling

cowroy said:


> I wished I would have run a 441 at the gtg but I guess it will have to wait till spring now.
> 
> Besides pulling a 28" bar better, what would be my thoughts of a Stihl 440 woods ported with a pop-up after running my Husky 372 woods ported with a pop-up? Like difference in feel, and fuel milage(milage not a big deal, I'd just like to know)? I love a 24" bar on this size saw so thats what would be on it.
> 
> Sorry bout the jack Brad, but I just don't like to start new threads.


 
If you don't live to far from Young, see if you can run his 44/460 hybrid.


----------



## MCW

lone wolf said:


> And we pay about 900.00 for one, that may be the reason to justify your higher prices .



You PAY for an extra warranty??? It only cost me USD$1200 to get an extra 3 year 100,000km on my Nissan Navara!


----------



## blsnelling

Here a vid of the 441 C-M ported. It's wearing a 28" B&C with a 7-pin rim. The chain is Stihl RSC33. The wood is the crotch of a Pin Oak that's been down a little more than a year. There were several limbs coming out of this huge crotch and it's extremely hard wood.

Something's still not quite right with this saw. Saturday it wouldn't idle down. I pulled the carb, replaced the plug, and it seemed fine. Now tonight, it was idling fine, but was way rich off idle, causing it to stutter. The saw ran great though once off idle. That's the state it was in in this video. I later pulled the entire intake tract off and put it back on. It now doesn't stutter off idle, but the idle hunts around a little. Tomorrow I think I'll pull the jug and make sure everything's sealed up there. The saw runs great, but can't seem to get everything ironed out like I want. In the mean time, here she is.

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lzpp0-PyvDo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## Officer's Match

Holding a lot of R's in some serious wood.

Got a decent price (I think) today on a 576AT, you up for porting one of those if I snatch it?


----------



## blsnelling

Officer's Match said:


> Holding a lot of R's in some serious wood.
> 
> Got a decent price (I think) today on a 576AT, you up for porting one of those if I snatch it?


 
I might be talked into that in a few weeks. Hopefully things will slow down around here pretty soon. I'd love to call this one done, but it's not behaving perfectly yet.


----------



## tlandrum

so how will it compare to your 372xp?


----------



## Officer's Match

blsnelling said:


> I might be talked into that in a few weeks. Hopefully things will slow down around here pretty soon. I'd love to call this one done, but it's not behaving perfectly yet.


 
That would give me time to break her in good with the 7 cords of firewood I already have promised - folks around here seem to be remembering how cold last winter was. $799 sound half reasonable with a 24" B/C?


----------



## blsnelling

tlandrum2002 said:


> so how will it compare to your 372xp?


 
I have no idea. This was the first time I had this one out.


----------



## blsnelling

Bumping to this page.

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lzpp0-PyvDo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## CR500

I am impressed, IDK maybe I should buy a 441 C and have it ported instead of the new unreleased 461. I know I may get a 660 is better answer, but I am wondering how u think this saw would handle a 32'' bar with full comp or skip ur choice Brad?


----------



## blsnelling

CR500 said:


> I am impressed, IDK maybe I should buy a 441 C and have it ported instead of the new unreleased 461. I know I may get a 660 is better answer, but I am wondering how u think this saw would handle a 32'' bar with full comp or skip ur choice Brad?


 
This is a 28" full comp in about as hard a wood as you can get. The HO oiler puts out a full tank of oil per tank of fuel. I'd think it would do fine with a 32" B&C. With this 28", I'm not so sure that it's not faster than my 390XP!


----------



## CR500

blsnelling said:


> This is a 28" full comp in about as hard a wood as you can get. The HO oiler puts out a full tank of oil per tank of fuel. I'd think it would do fine with a 32" B&C. With this 28", I'm not so sure that it's not faster than my 390XP!


 
It is looking more tempting everytime I watch one run lol


----------



## Andyshine77

I'm thinking the tuning will come around the more you run it, but that's just a guess. Did you run the 390 in that log as well?

Edit. OK I see that you did, the 390 looks stronger, but the 441 still looks good for 70cc.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm thinking the tuning will come around the more you run it, but that's just a guess.



You very well may be right. I'm going to buy some new fuel tonight as well.


----------



## blsnelling

Finally! The idle issue is finally resolved. It was nothing more than a tiny adjustment screw in the linkage of the carb. It was causing the clean air butterfly to leak. Then the M-Tronic would add fuel, trying to make up for it, causing it to load up at idle, and the have poor throttle response. I haven't had it in the wood since the fix, but I can make it idle rough and right back to smooth with a couple turns of this little screw. Don't mess with this screw on your M-Tronic! 

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/N1XlU_O46rs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## parrisw

Good running saw, too bad its a Stihl.


----------



## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> Good running saw, too bad its a Stihl.


 
If it makes you feel any better, I'll be selling this one and keeping the 390


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I'll be selling this one and keeping the 390


----------



## Officer's Match

blsnelling said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I'll be selling this one and keeping the 390


 
Really? The 441 sure looks strong in that larger chunk, even with the 390 as a reference, though I 'spose the sharper chain made a lot of difference.


----------



## blsnelling

I bought the 441 with the intention to sell it. I just wanted to check it out. Would much rather learn the ropes of this model on my own saw.


----------



## MacLaren

Man, that 441 M looks super good in that hard wood.


----------



## novaman64

So after having a ported one, how do you feel about this saw against a 440/460 hybrid?

I wonder if when the 461 is released you will be able to do a 441/461 hybrid. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling

I've had two 441s now. I still prefer a 460 or 440/460 hybrid. I can get more from them.


----------



## Officer's Match

novaman64 said:


> So after having a ported one, how do you feel about this saw against a 440/460 hybrid?
> 
> I wonder if when the 461 is released you will be able to do a 441/461 hybrid. :hmm3grin2orange:



We'll see what Brad has to say about the ported 441 M-Tronic vs 440/460, but I don't think a stock 460 would have a chance against this particular C-M, it just flies.

I think it's time to found the MTron Inc. organization, who else wants to join? :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## RiverRat2

blsnelling said:


> This is a 28" full comp in about as hard a wood as you can get. The HO oiler puts out a full tank of oil per tank of fuel. I'd think it would do fine with a 32" B&C. *With this 28", I'm not so sure that it's not faster than my 390XP*!



Are you seriously talking about the monster 390XP you just finished porting??????



tlandrum2002 said:


> if it breaks down your out time and time is money in production falling, if your a pro the warranty is only 90 days on a stihl. i dont like the thought of having a saw tat i cant go to the truck and open up my saw box and grab the parts i need to get me back out on the job. of course most of the time i have a spare saw with me but i dont want to have to rely on a spare to make it through the day. *i just dont really like the fact that the electronics to be diagnosed the saw needs to be plugged in to a computer. when things get to the point that the tried and true current models arent feasable to fix whether it be cost or availability ill get with the times. till then ill stick with what i know*.



what's the deal,,, you dont bring your laptop with ya when your cuttin timber everyday????? 
LOLOL!!!!


----------



## blsnelling

Your saw will blow away any stock 70-80cc saw.


----------



## blsnelling

This 441C-M was stronger/faster than a 046 when only muffler modded. It's in the vids Andre did.


----------



## young

blsnelling said:


> Your saw will blow away any stock 70-80cc saw.



yea but how about ported vs ported?!?!?!?!? :wink2:


----------



## blsnelling

young said:


> yea but how about ported vs ported?!?!?!?!? :wink2:



I never "raced" them but the 460 440/460 is stronger and faster than the 441. I'd post vids but I'm on my phone.


----------



## blsnelling

young said:


> yea but how about ported vs ported?!?!?!?!? :wink2:



Any ported 70-80cc saw? Lol, no I won't go that far!


----------



## rms61moparman

blsnelling said:


> Your saw will blow away any stock 70-80cc saw.





Now be careful making blanket statements like that Brad.


Mike


----------



## Andyshine77

rms61moparman said:


> Now be careful making blanket statements like that Brad.
> 
> 
> Mike



What???? Now Mike you know very well you're not a true sawyer unless you have a ported 441, and your running from trees that are about to fall on you day and night.


----------



## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> Now be careful making blanket statements like that Brad.
> 
> 
> Mike



Bring it on


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> What???? Now Mike you know very well you're not a true sawyer unless you have a ported 441, and your running from trees that are about to fall on you day and night.



Simmer down, Grumpy!


----------



## lone wolf

blsnelling said:


> I've had two 441s now. I still prefer a 460 or 440/460 hybrid. I can get more from them.



That is the only reason?


----------



## Stihlman441

I think it's time to found the MTron Inc. organization, who else wants to join? :hmm3grin2orange:[/QUOTE]

Count me in.:msp_biggrin:


----------



## rms61moparman

I'm just saying that I've run a couple of the 044's with the small wristpin that would put a LOT of ported saws back on the truck.


Mike


----------



## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> I'm just saying that I've run a couple of the 044's with the small wristpin that would put a LOT of ported saws back on the truck.
> 
> 
> Mike



I doubt there's any 044 stronger than a 7900, right?


----------



## mdavlee

Now ya'll are cheating bringing the 10mm 044s into it. Those are a real nice runner for the size. The one I had ran with a newer 460 both stock.


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Now ya'll are cheating bringing the 10mm 044s into it. Those are a real nice runner for the size. The one I had ran with a newer 460 both stock.



I don't doubt that one bit. I have a 10mm cylinder I was going to use on that new 440 I just sold. They're getting hard to come by, so it's not going anywhere.


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## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I doubt there's any 044 stronger than a 7900, right?



You got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mdavlee

I've got one here myself that I'm going to put on a 044/440 when I come across one again.


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## rms61moparman

blsnelling said:


> I doubt there's any 044 stronger than a 7900, right?





You won't find me betting my next paycheck on it!!!

In FACT...I'll guarantee that I can put an 044 in your hands that will outrun a stock 7900.

We all know that if you pull 10 saws of the assembly line right in a row, one will be a SCREAMER, eight will be average and one will be weaker than the rest. That is just a fact of mass manufacturing.

I know where there is an 044 that I will guarantee is completely stock, minus the base gasket, that will run with about any stock 7900 you bring.
If you want I can get the base gasket put back in!!!:msp_biggrin:


Mike


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## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> You got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And what I'm saying is that a ported 441 will spank any stock 70-80cc saw, including a 7900. It only had 8-10% to make up to begin with.


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## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> You won't find me betting my next paycheck on it!!!
> 
> In FACT...I'll guarantee that I can put an 044 in your hands that will outrun a stock 7900.
> 
> We all know that if you pull 10 saws of the assembly line right in a row, one will be a SCREAMER, eight will be average and one will be weaker than the rest. That is just a fact of mass manufacturing.
> 
> I know where there is an 044 that I will guarantee is completely stock, minus the base gasket, that will run with about any stock 7900 you bring.
> If you want I can get the base gasket put back in!!!:msp_biggrin:
> 
> 
> Mike



I'm saying that I don't think there's a stock 044 that will beat a 7900. Are you talking about a ported one or a stock one? If ported, well, I would hope so.


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## rms61moparman

blsnelling said:


> I'm saying that I don't think there's a stock 044 that will beat a 7900. Are you talking about a ported one or a stock one? If ported, well, I would hope so.







I will bet my friendship with Nik (and I know you are aware how important that is to me) that there has never been a grinder, file or any tool of porting of any kind put to this saw ever, and I wouldn't bet anything more expensive than lunch that my 7901 will outrun it.
All of those 10mm wristpin 044's run real well but this one is exceptional even for them.


Mike


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## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> And what I'm saying is that a ported 441 will spank any stock 70-80cc saw, including a 7900. It only had 8-10% to make up to begin with.



Brad I know, just playing with the 441 lovers.:smile2:


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## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> I will bet my friendship with Nik (and I know you are aware how important that is to me) that there has never been a grinder, file or any tool of porting of any kind put to this saw ever, and I wouldn't bet anything more expensive than lunch that my 7901 will outrun it.
> All of those 10mm wristpin 044's run real well but this one is exceptional even for them.
> 
> 
> Mike



Gotcha. I just wasn't clear on what you were saying. I know how much you like the 7900, so that's quite an 044!


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## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad I know, just playing with the 441 lovers.:smile2:



I'm just a saw lover


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## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I'm just a saw lover



You know it!!!!!!


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## Stihlman441

Stihlman441 said:


> I think it's time to found the MTron Inc. organization, who else wants to join? :hmm3grin2orange:



Count me in.:msp_biggrin:[/QUOTE]

Hang on i think there is only 3 ported M-Tronic that i know of,wonder why that is ?.


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## MCW

rms61moparman said:


> and I wouldn't bet anything more expensive than lunch that my 7901 will outrun it.
> All of those 10mm wristpin 044's run real well but this one is exceptional even for them.
> 
> 
> Mike



Maybe the 7901 you speak of was the worst one of the 10 saws that day  I'd be betting there is a stock 7900/7901 out there will beat this 044. I won't bet lunch though, I'm on a diet


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## lone wolf

MCW said:


> Maybe the 7901 you speak of was the worst one of the 10 saws that day  I'd be betting there is a stock 7900/7901 out there will beat this 044. I won't bet lunch though, I'm on a diet


So when is the race?


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## MCW

lone wolf said:


> So when is the race?



Unfortunately I don't have a stock horse to race with.

Oh and I'm on the other side of the world


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## lone wolf

MCW said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a stock horse to race with.
> 
> Oh and I'm on the other side of the world



I know I wonder if it could be done another way like video in same size wood ?Pretty sure the wood is much different there so no good huh?Dyno may be the only way then there is the calibration thing.Guess we need some local contestants.


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## MCW

lone wolf said:


> I know I wonder if it could be done another way like video in same size wood ?Pretty sure the wood is much different there so no good huh?Dyno may be the only way then there is the calibration thing.Guess we need some local contestants.



It's a difficult one to assess mate. For example at a recent forestry course I did one of the trainees had an old 044 there that well and truly outperformed the two 441's that the instructors had yet if you put the saws on a dyno I wouldn't be quite so sure.
It's been a long time since I used a stock 7900 but their excellent stock performance is still locked in my head. There are a lot of variables and as always with any test there will always be somebody complaining about chain sharpness or their piece of wood had a knot etc etc. You hear it all the time, that's just the way humans are.
A dyno would be the ultimate but even then power and torque curves are hard to compare to a real world situation. Like cars, a dyno tune is always backed up by a tune on the road. The figures are always fun to compare though 
If I had heaps of money I'd get a saw dyno made for sure...


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## WoodChuck'r

Wow what a thread.


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## Mikesprojects

WoodChuck'r said:


> Wow what a thread.



Yes it was, I read it all, took hours. Great job everybody involved. Big thumbs up!!!


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## Stihlman441

If you have some free time check out this one there is some good stuff in here.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/191377.htm


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## Russ Melampy

*M-tronic must be pretty smart, but how does it know?*

Hello guys, I've been lurking for a while and I've read everything I can regarding the MS441 RCM. I bought one last month, really love it, want to do the MM like I did on my 290 and even port it but don't want to lose my warranty. My question is how does the M-tronic "know" if the bar and chain is on or off the machine? What's the point of removing it for calibration? I have run @10 tanks of fuel through it and it seems to really be waking up...can I purchase another muffler and mod it so I could replace the original if some warranty issue arises?


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## Officer's Match

Russ, I don't know the real answer, but I'd hazard a guess that having zero resistance on the crank combined with untouched fast idle makes for a "controlled" scenario for the computer to recognize and thus calibrate. I can tell you it made a noticeable difference in my ported saws demeanor. Throttle modulation is greatly improved and the saw is more controllable without giving up its power gains.


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## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> If you have some free time check out this one there is some good stuff in here.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/191377.htm



Are you post dropping again Andrew? Stihl may not be able to supply enough 441's at the rate you're going


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## Stihlman441

If your worried about warranty then another muff is a good idea,they do like a muff modd for sure. As said above with the calibration requirements zero resistance on the crank is what is required.
There is afew different ways to modd theses muffs but this is what i found to work well.

Can still put the screen back in this one











This is the go for a ported one





Notice the heat difference the top saw is ported and muff modd from new,bottom saw stock everything.


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## Stihlman441

MCW said:


> Are you post dropping again Andrew? Stihl may not be able to supply enough 441's at the rate you're going



Ya mate just getting the message out there,this topic i know a bit about cant say that about much else i know.:msp_smile:


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## blsnelling

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya mate just getting the message out there,this topic i know a bit about cant say that about much else i know.:msp_smile:



What do you know about 441s? Ever run one?


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## CR500

Stihlman441 said:


> If your worried about warranty then another muff is a good idea,they do like a muff modd for sure. As said above with the calibration requirements zero resistance on the crank is what is required.
> There is afew different ways to modd theses muffs but this is what i found to work well.
> 
> Can still put the screen back in this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the go for a ported one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the heat difference the top saw is ported and muff modd from new,bottom saw stock everything.



I'm telling you Andrew... if you want those to shine like new, you need to put a little of this stuff on there. Just follow the steps, I did it on mine and it took it back to factory shine!!!
Mothers® Mag & Aluminum Polish


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## Stihlman441

blsnelling said:


> What do you know about 441s? Ever run one?



Ya i have run acouple,lets see 1,2,3,4.....................i ran out of fingers.:eek2:


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## Russ Melampy

*thanks Stihlman and nice pics...*

now if I just had another muffler to play with... I like the first pic even if I can live with out the spark screen. I really like the sound of a MM, even if the power may not really be needed. my muff modded 290 sounds better than the 441! I will do the calibration tomorrow and see what happens before I cut...the manual didn't mention it. The manual also didn't mention how to do a muffler mod either though...Thanks again and I'll let you know after I calibrate, for anyone who's interested.


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## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya i have run acouple,lets see 1,2,3,4.....................i ran out of fingers.:eek2:



Pffffft. If they were that good you'd only need one...


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## Stihlman441

MCW said:


> Pffffft. If they were that good you'd only need one...



There a bit like women in your life ya try afew but there is allways the special one.


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## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> There a bit like women in your life ya try afew but there is allays the special one.



You saw gigolo you


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## don5477

can someone tell me where the black air adjustment arm should be if possible could someone send me a pic of one so i know about where it goes this is on an sm441c


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## don5477

the saw is revving very high at wot runs good but revs very high beyond the sound of 4 stroking checked fuel mix its good


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## BRS

Just thought I would add this link since it is a minor but convient mod I made to my ms441 r-cm such that it now has captive bar nuts. Note I switched the handle to a half wrap also.

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...t-cover-captive-bar-nuts.292865/#post-5746555


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