# Walking Trees Around



## slowp (Feb 17, 2010)

Today, I was privy to a discussion between a father and son. The son said he couldn't get some of the trees in a thinning to fall and hit the ground without cutting an opening. 

The father said he could do it by "walking the tree around." I didn't really understand the explanation, I have to see things done. He said "you have to know your tree, and then you can walk it around." 

Any ideas on what he was talking about? I think he meant putting a wedge in sideways? and then working it around to get the tree around but I am not sure. They were considering a large monetary bet with each other. I don't know whether he'll do it, he's got an old injury bothering him big time.

They asked how my Collyfonia trip went. I told the son that I did what he showed me how to do but with way less and milder cussing.  :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Greystoke (Feb 17, 2010)

slowp said:


> Today, I was privy to a discussion between a father and son. The son said he couldn't get some of the trees in a thinning to fall and hit the ground without cutting an opening.
> 
> The father said he could do it by "walking the tree around." I didn't really understand the explanation, I have to see things done. He said "you have to know your tree, and then you can walk it around."
> 
> ...



I would guess that maybe he means to swing the tree with a dutchman?


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## logging22 (Feb 17, 2010)

:agree2:


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## Humptulips (Feb 18, 2010)

What he was talking about is you put the undercut the direction you want the tree to fall but on the low side you saw on past the undercut. Then you saw up the low side of the backcut and drive wedge in tight and leave a good amount of holding wood on the upper side. The lower side will be completely cut off. Wedge until it sets down on that kerf from the undercut, saw out low side from undercut and wedge until it sets down on the kerf you sawed out. Repeat the procedure and it will "walk" around. If it stops and won't wedge more you tickle a little of your holding wood off, You need to have a tree with tough wood. Species that are brittle it doesn't work so well. Works OK on spruce, fir and hemlock. Not so well on cedar, white fir or hard woods.

IMHO he's full of it if he thinks it will work well in thinning. When you walk a tree you have to have room for the top to swing. It sets down the hill as it comes around and will hang up on other trees. You put even a little limb against and that's as far as it will go.


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## isaaccarlson (Feb 18, 2010)

*gotta have a LONG leash to walk a tree......*

I'm happy with walking myself to bed.....if you are talking about a dutchman...yeah I use those, but they can be picky....can't have em swing out too far or they bust, but they gotta be far enough out to swing.....:monkey:


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## joesawer (Feb 18, 2010)

I have done a lot of thinning where I have had to let the top of the tree I was cutting move forward through a gap and the turn left or right to miss hanging up.
There are several different ways to encourage it to turn after it has moved forward a predetermined amount.
Sometimes you will just want the top to move in kind of a small half circle before it moves forward much. That is a little harder to do but on younger green trees that will hold the stump and with a little luck it can be done.
Some times you can just get them swinging the right way and cut them loose and let them ricochet and roll down to the ground.
Then sometimes you build a tepee. LOL


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## 056 kid (Feb 18, 2010)

i have found that a real shallow face, enough to get the tree to commit. then breaking the holding wood so the tree can twist & roll to the ground is sometimes the best approach when you are falling into trees.


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## slowp (Feb 18, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> What he was talking about is you put the undercut the direction you want the tree to fall but on the low side you saw on past the undercut. Then you saw up the low side of the backcut and drive wedge in tight and leave a good amount of holding wood on the upper side. The lower side will be completely cut off. Wedge until it sets down on that kerf from the undercut, saw out low side from undercut and wedge until it sets down on the kerf you sawed out. Repeat the procedure and it will "walk" around. If it stops and won't wedge more you tickle a little of your holding wood off, You need to have a tree with tough wood. Species that are brittle it doesn't work so well. Works OK on spruce, fir and hemlock. Not so well on cedar, white fir or hard woods.
> 
> IMHO he's full of it if he thinks it will work well in thinning. When you walk a tree you have to have room for the top to swing. It sets down the hill as it comes around and will hang up on other trees. You put even a little limb against and that's as far as it will go.



This sounds like he was talking about. His son agreed with your last statement. The father is known for his falling ability in these parts--well respected. I've got to head up there first thing so better get out of here...


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## Burvol (Feb 18, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> What he was talking about is you put the undercut the direction you want the tree to fall but on the low side you saw on past the undercut. Then you saw up the low side of the backcut and drive wedge in tight and leave a good amount of holding wood on the upper side. The lower side will be completely cut off. Wedge until it sets down on that kerf from the undercut, saw out low side from undercut and wedge until it sets down on the kerf you sawed out. Repeat the procedure and it will "walk" around. If it stops and won't wedge more you tickle a little of your holding wood off, You need to have a tree with tough wood. Species that are brittle it doesn't work so well. Works OK on spruce, fir and hemlock. Not so well on cedar, white fir or hard woods.
> 
> IMHO he's full of it if he thinks it will work well in thinning. When you walk a tree you have to have room for the top to swing. It sets down the hill as it comes around and will hang up on other trees. You put even a little limb against and that's as far as it will go.




EXACTLY! Thank you. I have tried to beat this concept home with people in conversations. The Dutchman is best suited to clearcuts or more open terrain. 

If you could put your hand on the very tippy top of a sawn off tree, you could hold it there, no problem. 

You need to *pay more attention to the sequents of events* that are required to make it all work. Tricks only take you so far, then your game is up. You can only take the easy way for so long unitl your out of options.


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## Burvol (Feb 18, 2010)

He might be refering to what I call the walking dutchman, getting the tree to come around to one side and totally sit down, then re-face and trip.


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## Humptulips (Feb 18, 2010)

Burvol said:


> He might be refering to what I call the walking dutchman, getting the tree to come around to one side and totally sit down, then re-face and trip.



I think so.

Maybe it is just me or different terminollogy in different areas but a dutchmen is different then a swing cut. Walking a tree is just working a swing cut to me. To me a dutchmen refers more to a block of wood in the undercut or an uneven undercut to change the direction of fall after the undercut starts to close. It happens all at once whereas a swing cut you can bring it around little by little. When you're swinging a tree you are basically cutting off the lower side of the tree. The wedge keeps the tree from setting down on the back side but when it sets down it has to set down on the lower side of the undercut and changes the lean. you keep cutting out the lower side of the face, wedging and it keeps setting down and changing the lean untill the weight gets to be to much for the holding wood or you trip it.I've seen trees fell directly against their lean with this but yea, you need room for the top to move and some good holding wood.

Anyway I suppose this has been went over before here and maybe we're talking about the same thing but using different language.


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## bullbuck (Feb 19, 2010)

just my take but,i get a good feel of witch way its headed by standing under the lean,and if i am not convinced in its direction,i will do the walk around,or maybe even break out a wedge or two


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## 056 kid (Feb 19, 2010)

interesting. I wanna se some video of such practice. I just cant see it reading. . . I have a good idea of what is going down, but there are about 1000 ways of picturing it in ones head. Chit i dont even get to play in the woods at all right now its a major bummer.. .


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## slowp (Feb 19, 2010)

If he did it and I was around, I'd video it. Chances are neither will occur. They were busy draining hydraulic oil and looking for an air leak in the yarder yesterday.


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## RPM (Feb 19, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/user/hotsaws101#p/u/21/tbN1sKN7IlI

Someone posted this a month or so back ... soft dutchman / walking dutchman ...


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## Humptulips (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't think that is what he is talking about but the effect is similar. It is not what I was trying to describe.
Think of it this way. If you sawed the entire low side of the tree off far enough in it would set down. That is what you are doing with a swing cut only you have driven a wedge into the backside of the tree on the low side so that when it sets down the wedge holds up the backside. That changes the lean. Then you saw out the kerf and do it again. Each time it sets down the top leans heavier down the hill but also towards the undercut. It's tricky because if you saw to far it can set down on your bar and not enough and you won't be able to wedge it.
I know clear as mud. My explanation is definitely lacking but sorry best I seem to be able to do.


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## joesawer (Feb 20, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> I don't think that is what he is talking about but the effect is similar. It is not what I was trying to describe.
> Think of it this way. If you sawed the entire low side of the tree off far enough in it would set down. That is what you are doing with a swing cut only you have driven a wedge into the backside of the tree on the low side so that when it sets down the wedge holds up the backside. That changes the lean. Then you saw out the kerf and do it again. Each time it sets down the top leans heavier down the hill but also towards the undercut. It's tricky because if you saw to far it can set down on your bar and not enough and you won't be able to wedge it.
> I know clear as mud. My explanation is definitely lacking but sorry best I seem to be able to do.





I understand what you are talking about. once your kerf closes you just cut it back open and let the top move a little more as it closes again.


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## RPM (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok ... just read the part about thining???? Its all clear cut up here in the north. The only hand falling we do now is for cable / yarder shows ..into lead ... its all about the lay (right  )


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## WidowMaker (Feb 20, 2010)

joesawer said:


> I understand what you are talking about. once your kerf closes you just cut it back open and let the top move a little more as it closes again.



=====


I'm having trouble here, how do you do this without pinching the bar???


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## slowp (Feb 20, 2010)

RPM said:


> Ok ... just read the part about thining???? Its all clear cut up here in the north. The only hand falling we do now is for cable / yarder shows ..into lead ... its all about the lay (right  )



Yes, a very tight thinning. Small limby trees. Average diameter is probably 14 inches. Hemlock, Silver Fir and Dougs. It is a yarder unit.

The problem trees usually crop up along the boundaries. Trees will get left in these areas because it is more trouble and causes more damage to cut them than to leave them. With our current rules--"when a tree lands with part of it outside the boundary, the tree will be bucked off and the part outside the boundary left on the ground" fallers have to make the decision on whether to bother. The cut trees along the boundary will usually have more limbs on the boundary side because the area next to the unit has been clearcut within the last 20 years. There's sunlight to be had.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 20, 2010)

WidowMaker said:


> =====
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble here, how do you do this without pinching the bar???



Hump, Burv, JoeS, etc., thanks, I got it after a few explanations......

056, careful, cause I was reprimanded for suggesting that us fallers ever "play" out in the woods, working on technique. My thought of course, lot of fun they'd be to cut with..... after, if you sped up a bit yourself you'd have time to play too

To not pinch the bar, just feel it, don't cut too fast....


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## tramp bushler (Feb 20, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> I think so.
> 
> Maybe it is just me or different terminollogy in different areas but a dutchmen is different then a swing cut. Walking a tree is just working a swing cut to me. To me a dutchmen refers more to a block of wood in the undercut or an uneven undercut to change the direction of fall after the undercut starts to close. It happens all at once whereas a swing cut you can bring it around little by little. When you're swinging a tree you are basically cutting off the lower side of the tree. The wedge keeps the tree from setting down on the back side but when it sets down it has to set down on the lower side of the undercut and changes the lean. you keep cutting out the lower side of the face, wedging and it keeps setting down and changing the lean untill the weight gets to be to much for the holding wood or you trip it.I've seen trees fell directly against their lean with this but yea, you need room for the top to move and some good holding wood.
> 
> . I prolly should have read the whole thread before replying but time is short ...gotta beat the heat , my road melts .. too many lows that are warm , need more 30 below ... Anyway . When Cody said a dutchman , I figured yup , then Hump elaborated on a more technical kerf dutchman with a wedge assist . then Bur added to that .................. YUP . thats how you walk a tree around another tree ...I taught Gary Soderberg how to do that in 85 ..Hook tender , Rowan Bay ,Kuiu Is. stuff in the way of the lift trees .. You can really get with the program if you put in a good holding wood side siswheel ... . And sometimes can walk some trees around one , one way then have a block , or wedge on the high side side of the face and it will check the swing and give you a sec more to cut your holding wood ...... 2 direction changes is all I,ve ever been able to get out of a tree tho ...... I go back into the kerf dutchman often and keep opening it up to get the tree to keep setteling down and into the face , but you need to have your saw wound up and just wack it in and bounce it out real quick or your going to get sat on .... ... For those that try this and get hung , take your power head off the bar and chain . go up the tree 3 or 4 feet , reface and fall the tree .. .. If you don,t go up the tree far enough , the stump will often times split and chunk out and there goes your bar and chain .... Like that bent bar Slowp had a pic of last week .. Prolly how it happened ...


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## tramp bushler (Feb 20, 2010)

joesawer said:


> i understand what you are talking about. Once your kerf closes you just cut it back open and let the top move a little more as it closes again.


.

.yup.!


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## joesawer (Feb 22, 2010)

WidowMaker said:


> =====
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble here, how do you do this without pinching the bar???



You need a saw that will cut faster than the top moves! 
You can feel when the chain starts to drag you better be getting it out of the way.


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## Humptulips (Feb 22, 2010)

joesawer said:


> You need a saw that will cut faster than the top moves!
> You can feel when the chain starts to drag you better be getting it out of the way.



I think it is something where you will want to depend on the wedge as much as the saw. Saw in until you think far enough and try the wedge. A couple of whacks and if it doesn't move then you are back to a tickle from the undercut side.
Good judgemet with this goes a long way and you don't get that without practise. I expect that anyone that uses this has had a few hangups until they caught on.


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