# Noob looking for advice, log cabin project



## jra1100 (May 23, 2012)

I've been on AS for 5 years and am going to be doing some milling. I read the sticky and got some great advice, but need more. A friend and I are trying to rescue a 160 year old log cabin for our local historical society. We need to mill some new logs 20' 6" long and a finished size of aprox 8"X12". We are going to use some old utility poles made of cedar, and thinking of using a GB mill and one of my jred 920's. The base of the poles are aprox 24" and yes they have creosote on the bottom 6'. How big a mill do we need. I'd like to go as small as possible, I'm thinking 26", and of course a couple of ripping chains. That's what I know and now I need your input and tell me where I'm wrong. We only need 3 or 4 of these logs to replace ones that are beyond salvage. Any and all ideas are welcome. Thanks guys. J R


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## mwrunt (May 23, 2012)

i would think that a three foot alaskan is as small as i would go but i think they may make a 30 in but cant remember. check out lee valley tools websit they have them all listed there as well as other use full log building tools


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## Dave Boyt (May 23, 2012)

Norwood and Logosol both also have chain saw milling attachments, so you might want to check them out. Logosol sells through Baileys. Use the shortest bar you can. Utility poles are notorious for having grit in them, so be prepared to do some serious sharpening or have extra chains. For just a few logs, I'd consider finding someone with a band saw mill to custom cut the logs. It will save time and probably money. It might also provide you with some cedar side lumber that you could sell to help finance the project.

Good luck. Hope you post some photos!


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## jra1100 (May 23, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I thought of GB only since it is by my estimation the most readily available and easy to repair if something goes wrong. I will look at lee Valley though, it's always fun to see what they have.

We actually did have a great guy who lives about 25 miles away say that he would be happy to saw the logs with his Wood Mizer if it didn't have to much creosote on them, but these have lots of tar like residue which we are told is creosote. I have a 30 inch bar on the 920 and thought I'd use that and build a second oiler on the end of it. Also if we get the GB I can order it from Baileys which is a sponsor and a delight to work with. JR


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## Dave Boyt (May 23, 2012)

Whoa-- back up the wagon! I thought only the bottom of the poles had creosote, and you would be cutting untreated wood above that. YOU DO NOT WANT TO MILL POLES WITH CREOSOTE!! It is so nasty that the EPA requires your sawdust to be treated as hazardous waste. It is a skin irritant, very bad on the lungs, and highly carcinogenic. At the very least, you will have the odor on you for months. I once sawed utility posts into quarters for fence posts. I will never do it again.

For the reasons listed above, you would not want to have treated posts in a cabin.


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## brookpederson (May 23, 2012)

I've cut enough cedar line poles now to know that creosote is nasty stuff. Avoid at all costs, if you can cut off the creasoted ends. If you can't, wear a respirator as you cut and gloves of some kind when you touch them. The stuff can and will make you feel like you have the flu if your around it to long. Also make sure you check them over with a metal detector, they can have a lot of hardware in them. 
Good luck


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## Sawyer Rob (May 23, 2012)

If someone came to me with power line poles, asking me to "mill them for a cabin", i wouldn't mill them at any price, for all the reasons Dave already mentioned.

SR


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## jra1100 (May 23, 2012)

We are aware of the problems with the creosote, and will try to get above the butt ends and into the area that is less heavily covered and weathered. We have come to a juncture where we REALLY need to get these logs replaced as soon as possible or we may loose the whole cabin. From some cuts we made it looks like the sections that we want to use have only just a very thin layer of creosote on the outer "skin" and the rest is pretty clean. The respirator seems a good idea though. If this doesn't work we will be back to square one. JR


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## qbilder (May 23, 2012)

Excuse my ignorance if necessary, but why can't you use some fresh cut logs from your local area? Old cabins were built from fresh logs, not old utility poles. The danger seems to far outweigh the benefit. You'll be putting yourself & anybody around you at serious health risk and only for a couple of logs that aren't even going to be relative to the originality of the project, when there is a much safer alternative that better fits with the way it would have been done originally. This is only my opinion, not advice by any means, but if it were me i'd rather use local logs to match what is already on the cabin. The cutting & sawing is going to be the same work & time, anyway. Is there a particular reason you want those poles?


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## jra1100 (May 23, 2012)

qbuilder, we considered using local logs, but were concerned that green logs will dry and warp and rack. The cabin was built with green logs to begin with, but now all of those have "set" and we are afraid that if we have to much stress on these fragile end joints that it could break it up and we could have a big pile of Lincoln logs. We figured that these poles were as stable a piece of wood that we could find. I'm not trying to minimize the creosote problem, but if it is all that bad then I'm a goner. When I was younger we built fence with creosoted posts and made corners with old railroad ties. We cut them and carried them on our shoulders and got covered with creosote many many times. I will take all precautions, but I am more worried about the cabin falling on me than creosote getting me. I will try to get some pictures of the cabin to add to this thread.


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## Sawmill_Bill (May 23, 2012)

How were the original log prepared? Were they sawn? Were they adzed? If adzed, saw them oversized and just adze the showing faces. 

We had to do the same thing on the cabin at Heritage Park of North Iowa ( www.heritageparkofnorthiowa.com ). If you want, bring your poles up to our sawmill and I will saw them for you for free.


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## jra1100 (May 23, 2012)

Sawmill_Bill said:


> How were the original log prepared? Were they sawn? Were they adzed? If adzed, saw them oversized and just adze the showing faces.
> 
> We had to do the same thing on the cabin at Heritage Park of North Iowa ( www.heritageparkofnorthiowa.com ). If you want, bring your poles up to our sawmill and I will saw them for you for free.



Bill: Thanks so much for the offer. We may take you up on that, but they are 22 feet long, or will be after we cut them down. We are doing this also to gain some experience with a mill, as we may need to make some more boards for other HS projects. The original logs were (we think) split to rough dimension and then adzed down to size leaving the top and bottom mostly rounded. I definitely need to get up your way and see your cabin and park. I could watch an old lumber saw work all day. Thanks again, you may see our logs yet. JR


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## srcarr52 (May 23, 2012)

JR

You can borrow my mill if you're ever close to my area of Iowa. It has a large mount husky bar on it, if you don't have a saw to fit I could probably let you borrow one of my Husky 394's. 

Last time I checked Mitch had a mill also. He's a little closer to you than I am. 

Making an 8"x12" cant out of a 26" stick you'll need at least 23.1" of cut plus a little wiggle room to make the one side of the 12" dimension without having to make multiple cuts to skinny the log first. Most bolt through mills loose up 4-6" of the bar and clamp style mills will loose 5-8". So you'll need a pretty long bar (30"-34"). My mill has a 36" and has around 31" useable when mounted on a Husky 394.

I'd plan on having a few ripping chains on hand, those poles will dull a chain quickly and I'm sure you'll find some metal in them somewhere.


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## qbilder (May 23, 2012)

The hazard of sawing creosote logs is the dust/vapor. Getting localized skin contact from RR ties would be mild compared to being covered in and breathing creosote dust. Just be very careful. And post some pics.


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## Sawmill_Bill (May 23, 2012)

JR,

We can saw up to 22' long and 40" in diameter. That is the limits of the machine.

Message me if you want to set up a time.


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## jra1100 (May 24, 2012)

Carr52 and Sawmill, those are great offers, thanks. We are not quite sure what we are going to do. I will try to post some pics and let you see what we have to work with. JR


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## jra1100 (May 24, 2012)

*Cabin Photos*

Here are some photos of the cabin. The closeups of the logs show the ones that we need to replace. The views are first from the front which now faces south and going around to the west view. The foundation square is where the original 1852 cabin goes. As we rebuild the east wall we also need to fill in the logs from the old cabin.


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## brookpederson (May 26, 2012)

WOW, do you have a project on your hands. You can find poles long 22' long after you cut the creosote off. The hard part is finding them big enough in diameter at the top for what you need. Transmission poles are the ticket.

here is a video of me cutting some 22' cedar poles into 6''x 6'' for a cabin i'm making. Note the respirator and gloves.
sorry for the audio, mute it if you don't want to listen to lots of wind and sawing. 

[video=youtube_share;GnBXEp2ZdRo]http://youtu.be/GnBXEp2ZdRo[/video]


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## jra1100 (May 26, 2012)

[UOTE=brookpederson;3673223]WOW, do you have a project on your hands. You can find poles long 22' long after you cut the creosote off. The hard part is finding them big enough in diameter at the top for what you need. Transmission poles are the ticket.

here is a video of me cutting some 22' cedar poles into 6''x 6'' for a cabin i'm making. Note the respirator and gloves.
sorry for the audio, mute it if you don't want to listen to lots of wind and sawing. 

[video=youtube_share;GnBXEp2ZdRo]http://youtu.be/GnBXEp2ZdRo[/video][/QUOTE]


Wow indeed we do have a bit of a project on our hands. We need to get the East side stabilized ASAP, and thus the power poles. We have enough to do the project, and are waiting for the flooring for the "original" cabin to get here and will install on memorial day. Records are a bit sketchy but we are pretty sure that Jacob Bellar came to Marble Rock in 1853 and built a 15X15 cabin. The following spring he returned to New York and came back to Marble Rock in the following spring with his wife and 8 children. He built the 2 story main 
cabin by himself, with of course the help of his family. He was 58 at the time so there would have been children old enough to be of some great help. 

We would love to have the rig that you have. We are also dealing with rather tight quarters and a mini loader with the type of attachment that you have would be invaluable. We have decided that we will replace the bottom 3 logs and then put a window in the center of the wall. This is not original, but by doing that we can utilize some of the logs that are pretty good on the south end, but the north end is either rotted or cut off. We have searched in vain to find where a fireplace might have been, and have come to the conclusion that there was none. I suspect the he brought a pot belly stove with him when he came back. Bellar was 5'8" and weighed 240 when he built the cabin. I'm a fair bit bigger and can't imagine what shape this guy must have been in to horse these logs around. Of course he died 2 years later, I'm 61 and have no plans to emulate him in that regard.


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## TraditionalTool (May 27, 2012)

jra1100 said:


> When I was younger we built fence with creosoted posts and made corners with old railroad ties. We cut them and carried them on our shoulders and got covered with creosote many many times. I will take all precautions, but I am more worried about the cabin falling on me than creosote getting me. I will try to get some pictures of the cabin to add to this thread.


So what your saying is that you didn't learn anything by doing that ?



jra1100 said:


> We are aware of the problems with the creosote, and will try to get above the butt ends and into the area that is less heavily covered and weathered. We have come to a juncture where we REALLY need to get these logs replaced as soon as possible or we may loose the whole cabin.



Seriously, are you a moron ? I can't believe your actually typing that, but to each their own. It seems apparent that you must have failed your retarded credential when you were younger, or your mother dropped you on your head when you were a baby. 



jra1100 said:


> We actually did have a great guy who lives about 25 miles away say that he would be happy to saw the logs with his Wood Mizer if it didn't have to much creosote on them, but these have lots of tar like residue which we are told is creosote. I have a 30 inch bar on the 920 and thought I'd use that and build a second oiler on the end of it. Also if we get the GB I can order it from Baileys which is a sponsor and a delight to work with. JR



That fact a professional sawyer doesn't want to touch the logs SHOULD tell you something, but you insist on saving a nickel and use them.

You want honest advice, get some clean logs no matter what you do. If you want them to match the logs there, you will need to broad axe them. Those logs are not adz'd they are hewn with a broad axe.

Personally I don't see it as being that difficult, although few people are alive that know how to build this style, there are a few.

Are the logs oak ?

I don't think it looks as bad as others or you have made out. Albeit there is some work to do...most of the logs don't look that bad. Looks like a wall was pulled out from the backside next to the door. For someone that doesn't know WTF they are doing, there is a lot of work.

1) get Charles McRaven's book, a lot of great info in it, too bad he died several years ago.

2) don't worry about using green logs, worry about using creosote logs...my $0.02

3) each log that needs to be replaced, you'll need to jack the logs up on top enough so that you can get the rotted log out. McRaven has some pics of using bottle jacks, but you also need to create a joist that will go under the logs being lifted. There are companies that move homes and they could be of great help to you, if you aren't able to fabricate your own lifting jacks. Each log will be fairly heavy, I would guess a full length log will weigh about 1000-1500 lbs. You will need enough room to put the log in, and be able to scribe the corner. You will need to fit the bottom, and then scribe the top from the upper log. Doesn't need to be perfect, you can get away with quite a bit on this type of structure.

4) before you do anything, clean out all the old chinking/motor and make sure you get it out of the log faces also. It looks like the previous owners put mortar in the rotted areas of some of the logs that need to be replaced.

5) The sky is not falling, the home doesn't look like it's going to fall over anytime soon. I wouldn't worry too much about getting those creosote logs in place ASAP, in fact, I would get rid of them and never bring them back to the property, they are not worth having around with the danger they present.

What I don't understand is why is the foundation is in such good condition ? Are you restoring the house on the current foundation ? Or are you moving to a new location also?

I would get a log craftsman to cut replacement logs for you. You will pay a bit now, but with the little bit of knowledge you have shown on log home building you might end up paying a lot in the end if you do it the way you are planning with the creosote logs.


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## jra1100 (May 28, 2012)

Traditional tool: We are actually not total morons, we are working with some very big poles, and when we get to the inside we will have clean wood. Only about the outer 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the poles has creosote it it. The only reason that to professional sawyer didn't want to cut them was that the creosote ruins his saw blade. He still has said he'd do it if we can't make anything else work, it'll just cost us the blades.

The history of this cabin is that the place where you say a wall had been removed was where the original 1852 cabin was attached to the later 1856 2 story cabin. This sat near the river and was purchased by some folks wanting to build a new house. They were going to destroy the house, but the Historical Society asked them if they could have it. It was moved 4 blocks and placed on a new foundation. It is in FAIR shape as far as being able to keep standing. We have used come alongs and braces, and drilled long angled 1 inch holes through the logs and driven in re rod to keep it in place, and lots of other means to get it back to pretty safe. We have replaced about 10 of the logs already and know how to do it, but we had replacement logs from another old log cabin. Now we are out of the long logs and want to get the East end stabilized as you can literally move it with one hand. This thing looks OK, but it's not. We have been working on this a little here and there for the last 3 years, and now have the go ahead to get it done. I am way more worried about this thing falling on me than I am about creosote. I confess I may be a retard and a moron, but I've been shot at, had chutes fail to open and been hit by a train, and I'm still alive and going to get this thing done.


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## Hillbilly3995 (May 29, 2012)

As a contractor I would be very afraid to use the creosoted poles...personally I'm not a bit afraid of it. However liability is an issue. if the epa got wind of it that there were creosoted logs there they'd condemn that bad boy like it was made out of the reactor lid from Chernobyl. I'd hate to be enjoying my retirement when some cookie counter comes and informs me that I had to fix it....free.


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## jra1100 (May 29, 2012)

Hillbilly3995 said:


> As a contractor I would be very afraid to use the creosoted poles...personally I'm not a bit afraid of it. However liability is an issue. if the epa got wind of it that there were creosoted logs there they'd condemn that bad boy like it was made out of the reactor lid from Chernobyl. I'd hate to be enjoying my retirement when some cookie counter comes and informs me that I had to fix it....free.



Fix it free....hell we're doing that now. When we get the outer parts of the poles off they won't be able to tell that there ever was any creosote.


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## Gologit (May 29, 2012)

TraditionalTool said:


> IMO, the first HUGE mistake was that you moved the entire home as a whole.
> 
> You should have numbered all the logs and dis-assembled it.
> 
> ...




Just because he's not doing it the way you would doesn't make it wrong. Why not try to infuse a little _positive_ attitude? Just for a change.


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## jra1100 (May 29, 2012)

TT: The reason that we moved it as a whole is that the property owner gave us a VERY short time period to clear the lot. We tore off one addition and took apart the original cabin (where the void's are on the new foundation area, (which as of Memorial Day has a new floor) and numbered the logs. We are going to replace them as we go up the wall where we are planing to use the cedar utility poles. 

When we moved the cabin it was covered with 3 and in places 4 different types of siding, the last of which was steel. It was determined by the mover, who has moved more than a dozen log structures in the last 40 years that this would be the fastest and safest way to move it. When we got it on site almost all of the siding was removed, but the roof was left to protect from the rain. We have been drilling the corners and tying 3 and 4 logs together with rerod driven through the holes. Not original, but it is securing it pretty well. 

The two of us doing the main work don't proclaim to be experts, out main claim to fame is that so far we haven't reduced it to a pile of Lincoln Logs. Time will tell.


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## qbilder (May 30, 2012)

I say keep going & learn & enjoy it. But do it safely. Green logs won't move that much, not like lumber does, and IMO isn't going to be a potential cabin destroyer. If nothing else, spend a little time searching backroads & old farms for other log structures such as barns & smoke houses & such. Salvage logs from them that are similar to what you need. Most of those old buildings are in ruins & the old farmers would likely be thrilled to contribute to the project if you pay them a little something and explain your intentions. I grew up in southern Ohio, in the Appalachians, and can think of half a dozen or so log structure ruins within 20 miles of the old family farm. Just takes some searching. Those old buildings aren't rare. They actually last way better than modern wood frame buildings. But stay away from the creosote if you can at any cost. Even if it doesn't hurt you, it may very well cause harm to anybody who visits that cabin in the future. A lawsuit will cost the historical society a whole lot more than that cabin is worth. It's a stretch to imagine it happening, but it only takes one.


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## TraditionalTool (Jun 10, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Just because he's not doing it the way you would doesn't make it wrong. Why not try to infuse a little _positive_ attitude? Just for a change.


Gologit,

I agree I was a bit harsh, and removed most of my posts last week. Creosote sent me over the edge, and for that I apologize for my comments, but still believe what I typed and would never condone such activity, I honestly don't care if someone believes cutting the outer section of the log off would be safe or not. It is not right to use those type of logs in a home where people would live.



jra1100 said:


> TT: The reason that we moved it as a whole is that the property owner gave us a VERY short time period to clear the lot. We tore off one addition and took apart the original cabin (where the void's are on the new foundation area, (which as of Memorial Day has a new floor) and numbered the logs. We are going to replace them as we go up the wall where we are planing to use the cedar utility poles.



Unfortunately I'm a fair distance from you, but I would offer up 6 doug fir logs for FREE, if you could figure out a way to move them or pick them up, and you could use my sawmill to mill the sides off of them as well. But the downside is I'm about 2000 miles away from you. I would also ONLY give you the logs for FREE if you promised to not use any creosote logs in your work, what so ever. 



jra1100 said:


> When we moved the cabin it was covered with 3 and in places 4 different types of siding, the last of which was steel. It was determined by the mover, who has moved more than a dozen log structures in the last 40 years that this would be the fastest and safest way to move it.



I don't know about safest, but that is probably the fastest. Let us not forget that fastest is not always best.

You have created a real mess to fix.

I do apologize for my comments, and as such I offer you up some free doug fir logs, but ONLY if you would agree not to use creosote in your project. I made no comments about you using the Skippy "peanut butter" Elsworth method of pinning your logs together, nor did I about any of your other construction techniques in this project. My only negative comments were in regards to you using creosote, and I would NEVER condone such.



jra1100 said:


> When we got it on site almost all of the siding was removed, but the roof was left to protect from the rain. We have been drilling the corners and tying 3 and 4 logs together with rerod driven through the holes. Not original, but it is securing it pretty well.



That is your choice, not how I would do it, and I have no comments on that type of work. Well, I do have comments but I'm going to refrain from offering them to you.



jra1100 said:


> The two of us doing the main work don't proclaim to be experts, out main claim to fame is that so far we haven't reduced it to a pile of Lincoln Logs. Time will tell.



I wouldn't gloat about it just yet, and I certainly wouldn't gloat about using creosote in your work.


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## srcarr52 (Jun 10, 2012)

Jra. What is the species and lengths of logs that you need. Post them and all of us around the area will keep our eyes open. If there is anything out at my friends 3000 acres I'm sure I can get it for you. Besides what is he doing right joe beside praying for rain and watching his beans wilt.


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## jra1100 (Jun 11, 2012)

TT: You have many good points, and a huge thanks for the offer of logs. As of right now, we are stepping back a bit and trying to find poles that don't have any creosote, for a number of reasons. Again, we got this dumped in our laps a couple of years ago and have been playing catch up ever since. You say or at least imply that we don't know what we are doing. GUILTY!!, hell no we don't know what we are doing. We talk to a lot of carpenters and of course EVERYONE is a expert and gives advice. We just pick what sounds good and hope that it works. Trust me on this, we are NOT gloating, in fact hoping not to F***k it up is more like it. We do what we can in the time we have.

carr52, great offer. We have all kinds of wood available to us here, we just would rather put in logs that are dry and not going to warp. Might be wrong, but we think that the less stress put on this old cabin the better. JR


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## jra1100 (Jun 20, 2012)

On monday we did our first cut. I used my jred 920, and it did a fine job, but it was WAY slower than I thought that it would be. Takes a while to go 21 feet. I'll post some pics later this week or next. JR


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## Dave Boyt (Jun 21, 2012)

Glad to hear you are moving ahead on the project. I hated to see all the insults being thrown around. Guess that's normal for forums, but I don't think I'll ever get used to it. What are you using for chain? A ripping chain ground at about a 10-degree angle, or even straight across is faster and more aggressive. You can look up info on ripping chains on this forum, as well as WoodWeb and ForestryForum. Best of luck, and please do post photos!


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