# Dangerous species



## CATreeTops (May 26, 2010)

I am preparing myself strategically to work some eucalyptus on my property to practice rigging, positioning, etc., without the worry of a customer to hurry or be particular about the process. Anyway, parts of a very rough bark species on the property has dropped some large, thick branches over the few years I've had the property. I've read this is a common property of Eucalypts to drop large branches and kills quite a few tree workers and campers who get in the wrong way of the natural behavior of the tree.

I figure I can reduce risk by not relying entirely on the branch to crotch over by wrapping the friction saver around the main stem...

I thought I'd ask if you guys take special precautions with Eucalyptus, or ways to identify outgoing branches on that type of tree, and what other tree species give guys reason to pause before trusting them to climb? I'm sure there are a few!

Thanks!


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

I don't know anything about Eucalyptus, but it sounds like you are heading for a "big-time" job without any "big-time" experience to keep you out of trouble.

I won't offer any advice, other than it sounds like you are planning an accident.


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## CATreeTops (May 27, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I don't know anything about Eucalyptus, but it sounds like you are heading for a "big-time" job without any "big-time" experience to keep you out of trouble.
> 
> I won't offer any advice, other than it sounds like you are planning an accident.



Fair enough. Does anyone have any insight to the species or others you're wary of?


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## RacerX (May 27, 2010)

Do you have any photo's of the tree?


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## derwoodii (May 27, 2010)

Ok down under OZ gums are called widow maker & claims made that they drop limbs without warning etc.

Yes summer drop or nil wind shed has been investigated and it does happen. Typically the culprit forest smooth barked gum species in an open urban area with lower limb elongated by photo-tropism. The summer drop a suspect response to high temperature reducing timber strength. The nil wind to poor union or taper within an elongated limb a small fracture or unseen structure fault is often found after shed, so the weakest link fails.

The claim of gums being a danger tree in Australia may be. However if you live in a land that greater % of trees are gums then you are by chance far more likely to be hit by a gum if unlucky enough to be under one at the very rare and wrong time. You would be very very unlucky to be hit by an Oak or American elm limb down here. The converse said about gum limb hits in say Canada or most part of US, perhaps not San Fran bay as here they are every where.

Trees vs people is a emotional topic, sadly the facts don't add up. Here's a new study extract from the UK. 

Centre for Decision Analysis and Risk Management at Middlesex University to
quantify the risk to the UK public of fatal and non-fatal injuries from falling or fallen
trees and branches. The research identified 64 deaths during the ten years after 1
January 19994. With a UK population of roughly 60 million, this leads to an overall
estimated risk of about one death in 10 million people per year from falling or fallen
trees and branches.
So far as non-fatal injuries in the UK are concerned, the number of accident and
emergency cases attributable to being struck by trees (about 55 a year) is
exceedingly small compared with the roughly 2.9 million leisure-related A&E cases
per year. Footballs (262,000), children's swings (10,900) and even wheelie bins
(2,200) are involved in many more incidents.

It a big doc much to read but some interesting numbers in it.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/website/forestry.nsf/byunique/infd-7t6bs5

With respect to your gums treat em like an Oak similar in structure and wood strength. Work em slow and get the feel an be prepared for hard wear on your saw chain.

More to read 
http://www.global-garden.com.au/burnley/jul99dte.htm


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## jefflovstrom (May 27, 2010)

CATreeTops said:


> Fair enough. Does anyone have any insight to the species or others you're wary of?



Eucalyptus sideroxylon ( red iron bark ). 
Jeff


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## S Mc (May 27, 2010)

CATreeTops, I commend you for your efforts to become educated and experienced on a procedure prior to trying under the pressures of a commercial situation. That is always the best approach.

I see from your bio that you are new to the industry. With that said, you don't say how much climbing experience you actually have. Before doing ANY rigging, you MUST be a proficient and experienced climber with the ability to handle all the tools required in a proficient and safe manner. 

Ignoring those prerequisites can get you killed. Handling a chainsaw competently on the ground does not instantly translate to handling one safely in a tree.

Knowledge of trees is also mandatory. Taking the view point that there are dangerous species can blind you in two ways.

It can either prejudice you unnecessarily or cause you to overlook a problem in a tree species you deem "safe".

A dangerous tree is one with a serious defect...it doesn't matter what species it is. It doesn't matter how big, old or where. Those factors just add to the degree of danger.

Speaking specifically of eucalyptus, one of the main causes of limb failure is excessive tip weight on a limb that can no longer handle it. Take off the tip weight and you have a lot stronger limb to deal with, unless there is a defect in the limb compromising it further. Getting the tip weight off may, or may not, be a big issue. (No, Montana doesn't have eucs...but we came up from California which does.)

Derwoodii makes an excellent point about prejudices with dangerous trees. If the predominant tree in an area is one species, well, that is the species you are going to have the most difficulty with.

Sylvia


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## CATreeTops (May 27, 2010)

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies. Eucs were apparently brought over from Aussie to CA during the gold rush era since the climate here in CA is similar they've done well. There are a lot of them in a lot of yards, parks, etc.

The blue gum is a notorious version apparently, but this one I'm particularly eyeing is a rougher bark with long thin leaves. I'll post a picture. This type seems to grow in leaning positions and seems to have erratic and asymmetrical growth habits. With trimming they seem to look more "normal" and less hazardous, but left to their own devices, they grow precarious looking limbs and don't seem too sentimental about what sometimes very large limbs they'll drop - even though this isn't even the (blue) gum. The global-garden link above seems to indicate eucs in general are notorious trees. Something additional I've read is that in dryer periods they'll shed limbs to preserve water. This is a tree that's used to surviving in dryer climates, so shedding is an adaptive measure its taken apparently.

I'll post a photo as that's often worth more than a 1000 words and see if that strikes anything in particular.


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## tree md (May 28, 2010)

Sylvia makes a great point about the limbs being more likely to fail when they are tip heavy. I always prefer to natural crotch with my rigging line if I can get away with it. I am old school and learned that way. If I can get away with it I will go up top to a good central leader or at a point where I can lower to the desired drop zone and take the top out leaving a good fork to rig from. When you take the top out or cut the weight out of a natural crotch you create a much stronger point to rig from. The more weight you take out of a tree the safer and more structurally sound it becomes to rig from as you are bringing it down. I preferably will not break out a block and rig from the spar until I begin to bring the main stem down. I am always looking for a natural crotch to lower the brush and limb logs from for speed sake as well as the natural fork will hold more than the block and sling on a structurally sound tree. 

If you have no experience at this it would be preferable to have someone on hand who is so they can keep an eye on you and offer advice. If not, take it in small pieces and think it through before you make every cut. Large removals and technical rigging is like a chess game, you have to think three moves ahead. It becomes easier as you learn how certain species of wood reacts when you make cuts as well as knowing the proper cuts to make. You got to think if I make this cut A, B and C is going to happen. Am I cutting out a particular limb I am going to have to rig from later on in the operation? Have I untied from the piece of wood I am about to cut? Am I sure my rigging line is not going to cross my climbing line and melt through. There is so much that you have to keep in mind when doing a rigging operation. There are usually no second chances to get it right. Especially if you are trying to lower big wood.


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## CATreeTops (May 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> Sylvia makes a great point about the limbs being more likely to fail when they are tip heavy. I always prefer to natural crotch with my rigging line if I can get away with it. I am old school and learned that way. If I can get away with it I will go up top to a good central leader or at a point where I can lower to the desired drop zone and take the top out leaving a good fork to rig from. When you take the top out or cut the weight out of a natural crotch you create a much stronger point to rig from. The more weight you take out of a tree the safer and more structurally sound it becomes to rig from as you are bringing it down. I preferably will not break out a block and rig from the spar until I begin to bring the main stem down. I am always looking for a natural crotch to lower the brush and limb logs from for speed sake as well as the natural fork will hold more than the block and sling on a structurally sound tree.
> 
> If you have no experience at this it would be preferable to have someone on hand who is so they can keep an eye on you and offer advice. If not, take it in small pieces and think it through before you make every cut. Large removals and technical rigging is like a chess game, you have to think three moves ahead. It becomes easier as you learn how certain species of wood reacts when you make cuts as well as knowing the proper cuts to make. You got to think if I make this cut A, B and C is going to happen. Am I cutting out a particular limb I am going to have to rig from later on in the operation? Have I untied from the piece of wood I am about to cut? Am I sure my rigging line is not going to cross my climbing line and melt through. There is so much that you have to keep in mind when doing a rigging operation. There are usually no second chances to get it right. Especially if you are trying to lower big wood.


Thank you so much for replying! That is what I've been doing. I've spent a lot of time speculating, planning, reading and then starting all over. I still have to pick up the rigging gear, so I'm not ready to get up there to cut yet. I'm a thinker (software engineering by trade today), so I love the problem solving!

Here are a couple of images of the limb I'm considering. I want to tie in above from the separate tree above and perform the work below, I figure rigging from the tree the work is on. I want to pull down small chunks at a time to see how the wood reacts to the cuts I choose and the overall feel of the entire process of the tree letting go and the line taking over. I have to get it right because there is a street at the bottom of the embankment these trees are planted at the top of. I've lost a large, and I mean large branch already. With the limbs on it, it stopped tumbling pretty quickly and avoided disaster, but I know from experience now what a selling point of managing these trees are. 

I need to take my time, get a feel for the equipment at height and learn to trust my work, and learn from the small mistakes I allow myself room to make. I'm really excited about doing this work, but I want to do it right. Here in so cal by the way, a neighbor down the street had some illegals (I presume) just butcher the trees in their side yard.. cut everything green off of them. When I get inquiries I almost always so far have to explain that topping is against good practice for managing the tree. They're always surprised to hear that.

Here are a couple pics. I just shot them and they're a little dark, but you can see the bark I'm referring to. I've roped over this stuff, and didn't cause any real damage to the rope, but I think a false crotch is the way to go for climbing at least...

Thanks again all!


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## jefflovstrom (May 28, 2010)

CATreeTops said:


> Thank you so much for replying! That is what I've been doing. I've spent a lot of time speculating, planning, reading and then starting all over. I still have to pick up the rigging gear, so I'm not ready to get up there to cut yet. I'm a thinker (software engineering by trade today), so I love the problem solving!
> 
> Here are a couple of images of the limb I'm considering. I want to tie in above from the separate tree above and perform the work below, I figure rigging from the tree the work is on. I want to pull down small chunks at a time to see how the wood reacts to the cuts I choose and the overall feel of the entire process of the tree letting go and the line taking over. I have to get it right because there is a street at the bottom of the embankment these trees are planted at the top of. I've lost a large, and I mean large branch already. With the limbs on it, it stopped tumbling pretty quickly and avoided disaster, but I know from experience now what a selling point of managing these trees are.
> 
> ...



Dude, do you have me on 'ignore'? I told the species many posts before you posted a pic. Eucalyptus sideroxylon. Good luck-
Jeff


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## tree md (May 28, 2010)

I hate to say it but if you are having questions about that tree you should get some help. I take limbs that size. Of course I have nothing in the landscape to compare to but it looks like a very simple operation. I have to be careful advising people on here because what looks so simple to me could be disastrous for someone who is inexperienced. That's not bragging, that is just the truth of the situation. The tree looks simple from my perspective but I'm not there. Sometimes it makes sence to pay someone to watch and learn what they know. 

I'm a pretty good fisherman but I have never fished for Walleyes. I have considered paying the money and hiring a guide just to teach me what he knows and where and how to fish for them.

Best of luck to you.


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## derwoodii (May 28, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Dude, do you have me on 'ignore'? I told the species many posts before you posted a pic. Eucalyptus sideroxylon. Good luck-
> Jeff


Euc sids are tough critters and can be quite tricky to work. Heavy timber / volume. The wood snaps out on ya back cut as opposed to predicable longer grain timber. N the bark will is a heavy grade sand paper on hands. I am not a fan of em they are on my list of no goods. 

From the picture I think I see a NQR tree structure but play with it to learn.

Consider a back up, find an experienced tree chap to help as you practice your skills.


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## tree md (May 29, 2010)

That's another thing. I have never put saw to a Euc. For me to try to advise you would be ludicrous. 

I admire your enthusiasm and wish I could find someone close to me with your zeal to work with. If I were closer and the work was within my scope I would try to work the ground for you and advise you. 

Again, good luck!


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## ropensaddle (May 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> That's another thing. I have never put saw to a Euc. For me to try to advise you would be ludicrous.
> 
> I admire your enthusiasm and wish I could find someone close to me with your zeal to work with. If I were closer and the work was within my scope I would try to work the ground for you and advise you.
> 
> Again, good luck!



A big willow or sweet gum is prolly close! All species have the ability to be dangerous but some do have a lower modulus of rupture.


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## tree md (May 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> some do have a lower modulus of rupture.



The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat


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## ropensaddle (May 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> The angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat of the beat



I knew you would like that lol


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Dude, do you have me on 'ignore'? I told the species many posts before you posted a pic. Eucalyptus sideroxylon. Good luck-
> Jeff



No, absolutely not my man. I should have cross referenced your post to see if an image came up that looked like the tree in question. There are so many versions, I just didn't think you'd guess what I'm dealing with without a picture. Good job though! You absolutely nailed it, and thank you.

Do you have any tips on avoiding problems climbing this tree by chance? Much appreciated!


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Euc sids are tough critters and can be quite tricky to work. Heavy timber / volume. The wood snaps out on ya back cut as opposed to predicable longer grain timber. N the bark will is a heavy grade sand paper on hands. I am not a fan of em they are on my list of no goods.
> 
> From the picture I think I see a NQR tree structure but play with it to learn.
> 
> Consider a back up, find an experienced tree chap to help as you practice your skills.



Coming from Aussie, I'm sure you've deal with the tree often. They're nice looking when they don't look like they belong in a horror film. They grow in such odd configurations it looks like... What is an NQR tree structure? Are you saying it looks unstable? It's definitely a leaner... I snapped a pic of the base of the tree. The left side is more upright and is the one I plan to work the lower one with.

The second pic by the way is my later goal. It's the top of the left most trunk of picture one. It's got a precarious limb growth (as usual) and needs to be removed. I've had Mexican workers quote me 300 down to 150 to remove that limb. It's a ways up there. These guys are brave, not to mention cheap. But with spikes and a lanyard, and little to nothing to lose, I'm sure it's worth it. lol


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> I hate to say it but if you are having questions about that tree you should get some help. I take limbs that size. Of course I have nothing in the landscape to compare to but it looks like a very simple operation. I have to be careful advising people on here because what looks so simple to me could be disastrous for someone who is inexperienced. That's not bragging, that is just the truth of the situation. The tree looks simple from my perspective but I'm not there. Sometimes it makes sence to pay someone to watch and learn what they know.
> 
> I'm a pretty good fisherman but I have never fished for Walleyes. I have considered paying the money and hiring a guide just to teach me what he knows and where and how to fish for them.
> 
> Best of luck to you.



It's ok. I realize people will err on the side caution when giving advice when the risk of failure is death or serious injury. It's serious work. My ambition and drive to look past that is not a sign of ignorance to the risk or consequence for failure. I am having questions as you might guess because I want to do it right and be successful. If I fail and get killed that was my choice to take the risk. If I succeed, then I'll be able to recite a quote I like for years to come. Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly.

I trust my ability to learn. I've definitely been on the ground longer than I expected. I've done a couple jobs I could handle with my pole saw, but I've realized in the meantime I have a lot to learn to be able to handle the work that I see everywhere around me. I love that every land owner or leaser has a tree problem to solve. I love the technical aspect to the job and am erring on the side respect for the work so I can do my level best to do it right. I'm sure I will make mistakes because I can't expect to have someone hold my hand every time I want to move forward, but learning is what's great about life. I'll consider seeing if I can find someone willing to mentor me. That's good advice I haven't ignored. Ok, enough of me boring people with that...


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> That's another thing. I have never put saw to a Euc. For me to try to advise you would be ludicrous.
> 
> I admire your enthusiasm and wish I could find someone close to me with your zeal to work with. If I were closer and the work was within my scope I would try to work the ground for you and advise you.
> 
> Again, good luck!



Much appreciated! You guys online are more invaluable than I can adequately state.


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## jefflovstrom (May 29, 2010)

CATreeTops said:


> No, absolutely not my man. I should have cross referenced your post to see if an image came up that looked like the tree in question. There are so many versions, I just didn't think you'd guess what I'm dealing with without a picture. Good job though! You absolutely nailed it, and thank you.
> 
> Do you have any tips on avoiding problems climbing this tree by chance? Much appreciated!



Just get a good TIP. If they were mine, I would remove them. Have they been topped in the past as so many here have?
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (May 29, 2010)

TIP is 'tie in point', 
Jeff


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Just get a good TIP. If they were mine, I would remove them. Have they been topped in the past as so many here have?
> Jeff



No. These trees haven't had any trimming at all from what my eye can tell. I don't see any cuts looking from the ground - no cuts high up anyway. It's on my residential property, so my guess is the homeowners before me just never made it a priority. That top branch is pretty precarious looking. I'm curious to know if there is an age of branch that is more like to snap or not, but if I were to guess from this tree, it seems almost indiscriminate. It's snapped stuff up high and low. I guess my worry is making sure my TIP is secure, so that the entire structure doesn't fail. I think I have to make sure I'm secured to the main stem and not rely on any branch strength alone. I doubt the tree baring disease or erosion will "choose" to give up the main portion of the tree...

I will at some point remove the lower, more leaning trunk. My more immediate goal is to trim the end to reduce the liability to the trunk failing which would be bad... The trunk is has a lot of diameter/wood, so I have to get used to rigging lighter stuff. Imagine a large log rolling into oncoming traffic below. Wow. As I learn what's involved in some jobs I see how much trust people put in the undocumented help they are inclined to hire.


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## ropensaddle (May 29, 2010)

Hiring wetbacks is treason imo.


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Hiring wetbacks is treason imo.



Nice. If you turn on the news you know what kind of sympathetic horse**** a lot of us have to listen to.


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## ropensaddle (May 29, 2010)

CATreeTops said:


> Nice. If you turn on the news you know what kind of sympathetic horse**** a lot of us have to listen to.



Yeah I know, Gays and libs took over the media, it sucks as much as they do! I miss Bah Bah black sheep and The rifleman days, now its all weirdos and queers.


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## jefflovstrom (May 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah I know, Gays and libs took over the media, it sucks as much as they do! I miss Bah Bah black sheep and The rifleman days, now its all weirdos and queers.



Sure miss 'Pappy' and 'Lucas'!
Jeff CTSP


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## derwoodii (May 29, 2010)

What is an NQR tree structure?
:rock:[/QUOTE said:


> Sos NQR is just Not Quite Right I saw a lot of poor limb unions and elongation with little timber taper, typical odd ball structure that garden planted Euc sids can do.
> 
> Your trunk base pic shows co-dominant trunks with a very low & tight V union "Not good" & not uncommon in iron barks.
> Get your TIP good and have some fun climbing and practice rigging and up tree cuttin without taking big pieces learn slow and have someone on the ground please.
> ...


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## CATreeTops (May 29, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Sos NQR is just Not Quite Right I saw a lot of poor limb unions and elongation with little timber taper, typical odd ball structure that garden planted Euc sids can do.
> 
> Your trunk base pic shows co-dominant trunks with a very low & tight V union "Not good" & not uncommon in iron barks.
> Get your TIP good and have some fun climbing and practice rigging and up tree cuttin without taking big pieces learn slow and have someone on the ground please.
> ...


Excellent. Thanks so much. This tree has what you're describing - what look like poor attachments. The base almost looks like two trees the crotch is so low. In fact before you posted that link I hadn't paid it much mind other than the lean it has. Generally they're a liability - the lower one for sure; and they're not required for aesthetic reasons, or property value.

I do have a buddy willing to drag brush for me part time, so I'll recruit him before I cut. Thanks again.


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## beastmaster (May 30, 2010)

I like climbing eucs. Most are pretty strong especially if you stay close to the trunk. Once you start cutting everything changes. There are so many variables involved in each cut. The bigger the branch the more things that could go wrong. Only experience can teach you what to be on the lookout for, and what precautions you must take. 
Have fun climbing those eucs, but maybe you should learn to work on smaller safer trees. Granted tree work isn't rocket science, but you pay for mistakes with property damage, broken bones, or a grounds man or yourself dieing. 
An old boss of mine use to tell me,"they're are old tree trimmers, and dumb tree trimmers. But no old dumb tree trimmers." The school of hard knocks in this business is hard knocks. 
Find some one to teach you. Get a job as a grounds man and work your way up the ladder.Keep climbing. Be safe. Beastmaster.


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## beastmaster (May 30, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> hiring wetbacks is treason imo.



imo2


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## pbtree (May 31, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah I know, Gays and libs took over the media, it sucks as much as they do! I miss Bah Bah black sheep and The rifleman days, now its all weirdos and queers.


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## VA-Sawyer (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm suprised nobody is screaming about his plan to climb the tree with 'spikes and lanyard' for pruning work.


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## CATreeTops (Jun 3, 2010)

VA-Sawyer said:


> I'm suprised nobody is screaming about his plan to climb the tree with 'spikes and lanyard' for pruning work.



Who's planning that..?


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## VA-Sawyer (Jun 3, 2010)

Sorry, my bad. I misread the end of post #19. I thought that you were saying with only spikes and a lanyard as expenses that you had nothing to loose trying to save some money. 
I now understand that you were saying the "cheap" treeworkers are the ones with spikes, lanyard and not much to loose. I again apologize for my previous post thinking you were spiking a prune job. 

Good luck on that tree and please be careful!
Rick


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## CATreeTops (Jun 3, 2010)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Sorry, my bad. I misread the end of post #19. I thought that you were saying with only spikes and a lanyard as expenses that you had nothing to loose trying to save some money.
> I now understand that you were saying the "cheap" treeworkers are the ones with spikes, lanyard and not much to loose. I again apologize for my previous post thinking you were spiking a prune job.
> 
> Good luck on that tree and please be careful!
> Rick



No worries. I appreciate the feedback!


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