# 25' beams



## Beefie (Nov 27, 2013)

Looking at building a cabin at my hunting land. 24'X30' It is going to be a stick built structure with a nice solped roof and a loft on one end and open the other side. I would like to have 2 24' stringers go across to give it character and support in the open area. i have access to white pine logs but do not no of any one that has a mill long enogh to cut it, plus being so big trying to handle it in log form would take some equipment. Is a alaskan setup what i would need to do ? Where do I start ?

Thanks
Beefie


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## olyman (Nov 27, 2013)

Beefie said:


> Looking at building a cabin at my hunting land. 24'X30' It is going to be a stick built structure with a nice solped roof and a loft on one end and open the other side. I would like to have 2 24' stringers go across to give it character and support in the open area. i have access to white pine logs but do not no of any one that has a mill long enogh to cut it, plus being so big trying to handle it in log form would take some equipment. Is a alaskan setup what i would need to do ? Where do I start ?
> 
> Thanks
> Beefie


when I had a oak log,,that I wanted to do this with, the local lumber yard said forget it. he said the span was tooo much, and the beams would bow down...this would have been a 6x18, by 16 feet long. white oak...


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## sachsmo (Nov 27, 2013)

That durn Ash borer left me with a bunch of 30'+ White Ash.

I would think a baseball bat 20+inch diameter would hold a 30 foot span?


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## discounthunter (Nov 27, 2013)

lams will be your only bet for a 24' span. a log will have to be supported.


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## Beefie (Nov 27, 2013)

I hear what you guys are saying. And I guess I didn't describe it correctly. If you can picture a old barns hay mowe. The main beam has some stringers that go off at right angles to help support the roof. My plan is to bolt or notch some stringers or braces into it . more for decoration than any thing else. I will see if I can find some pictures on the web to help me show what I am trying to get at.


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## sachsmo (Nov 28, 2013)

discounthunter said:


> lams will be your only bet for a 24' span. a log will have to be supported.




Steel?

I seen some of the stress tests done using pine vs. engineered.

Surely a 16x16 would span 24" (and then some?)

I have a bunch of 16"+ diameter White Ash I was going to use to frame a heated work area in my barn.

I'm not an engineer, but I bet I could put up a couple "A" frames 25 foot apart, mount a 20" diameter White Ash as the main beam and hoist a decent size Caterpillar?


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## les-or-more (Nov 28, 2013)

Beefie said:


> I hear what you guys are saying. And I guess I didn't describe it correctly. If you can picture a old barns hay mowe. The main beam has some stringers that go off at right angles to help support the roof. My plan is to bolt or notch some stringers or braces into it . more for decoration than any thing else. I will see if I can find some pictures on the web to help me show what I am trying to get at.


Most of the old barns around here are 40' with a post in the center, so 20' spans, with a 8" or 10" ash or oak beams, they are all rough hewn so actual dimensions are up to some interpretation. They manage to stand for over a hundred years holding loads, sitting on field stones, without falling down.


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## Beefie (Nov 28, 2013)

I really don't believe that 24' is going to be a issue and if it is I can make a beam buy laminating plywood together and then covering it with pine. There is more than one way to shave a beaver.


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## sachsmo (Nov 28, 2013)

But how do you get the hair out of your teeth?


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## Beefie (Nov 28, 2013)

That's why there shaved no hair, boy I miss the old icons where is my big smiley face.

Beefie


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## psgflier (Nov 29, 2013)

I'm not home right now, so I can not give references, but the engineering tables I have showed 2x12 spruce suitable for floor joist up to 22 feet on 16in. centers. I put 6x12x 24' on 4' centers for the second floor, and that was over engineered.
If you're planning two 24' timbers across the building, your dividing into 10' sections, it'll be fine . Remember, depth increases strength more than width.
An Alaska mill is ideal for cutting long timbers. The 090 will smoke in the mill, especially in pine.
Carl


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## BobInMN (Nov 29, 2013)

This is using the beam calculator I found: 
Eastern White Pine #2
Length 298"
Width 4"
Depth 8"
250# Center Point Load

Fiberstress in Bending - Pass
Deflection - Pass (.55")
Horizontal Shear - Pass

http://www.*****************/members/donp/beamclc_ctrpointload.htm


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## olyman (Nov 29, 2013)

Beefie said:


> I really don't believe that 24' is going to be a issue and if it is I can make a beam buy laminating plywood together and then covering it with pine. There is more than one way to shave a beaver.


that's totally different than a one piece pine,oak,or whatever beam.........


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 29, 2013)

Subscribing. I don't know squat about engineering with wood, but suspect I'll learn something by hanging out in this thread.

The blocked link comes courtesy of Darin's list of "competing sites". I found it with some searching, but it doesn't look like it works without a bunch of numbers I don't know anyway.


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## Sawyer Rob (Nov 30, 2013)

One thing many folks fail to take into consideration is, those OLD barns were built with "old growth timber", and that's much different than todays timber!!

I built a glued up pine/ply 8"x12" wood beam that is white pine/3/4" CDX ply, glued/screwed/nailed to span 26', (actually less with angle braces)







it has a bit more deflection in it than i'd like... 

SR


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## sachsmo (Nov 30, 2013)

How about for a loft/mezz?

Not a living area, just storage and to enclose an area I can heat and get a vehicle in to work?

Gotta use some of my Ash Logs, I've been dropping and topping for firewood, but can't bring myself to buck up all those straight logs.


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## BobInMN (Nov 30, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> How about for a loft/mezz?
> 
> Not a living area, just storage and to enclose an area I can heat and get a vehicle in to work?
> 
> Gotta use some of my Ash Logs, I've been dropping and topping for firewood, but can't bring myself to buck up all those straight logs.



I could not find the design values for Ash, but I'm sure with a little more research a guy could find them. What you should do first is to come up with a drawing/plan of the type of building you want. Then you can do your statics and strength calculations to determine what size timbers and beams that you will need. I'm not an Engineer, but I do have a two year Civil Engineering Tech degree. I'm no expert, however I think I can point you in the right direction. Do you know how to use Google Sketchup? If you can draw out your plan on Sketchup there is a forum with some very knowledgeable people that would be willing to guide you. Bottom line is that they will tell you your plan should be reviewed by a PE with a working knowledge of timber framing before you start building. With timbers it's easy to get someone hurt if not planned or built correctly.


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## sachsmo (Nov 30, 2013)

On the heat charts it is right under Red Oak.

They make a bunch of shovel handles, Ax, Picks etc and the famous Louisville Slugger from White Ash?


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## sachsmo (Dec 1, 2013)

Beef is in East Central WI.

The chart over in the woodburnin' forum shows the EAB is there.

I have been racking my brain for near 8 years on what to do with 10+ acres of pole straight White Ash logs.

A feller that had a plan and the equipment could make some very good money salvaging all them trees.

Up in Fort Wayne the city has spent millions to remove all the dead ones. My bud at work gets them from a tree service for free, hell they even buck 'em and his crew loads them in his little dump truck!


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## olyman (Dec 1, 2013)

Sawyer Rob said:


> One thing many folks fail to take into consideration is, those OLD barns were built with "old growth timber", and that's much different than todays timber!!
> 
> I built a glued up pine/ply 8"x12" wood beam that is white pine/3/4" CDX ply, glued/screwed/nailed to span 26', (actually less with angle braces)
> 
> ...


you just acknowledged,,what I said, thanks... I talked to the lumber man,,and he said prengineered beams wereh the way to go,,and then laminate the outside with oak,pine,whatever...


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## sachsmo (Dec 1, 2013)

Uhhh,

Lumbermen sell Lumber do they not?

Wonder how some of the huge barns were built back in the day without engineered lumber?


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## les-or-more (Dec 1, 2013)

sachsmo said:


> Uhhh,
> 
> Lumbermen sell Lumber do they not?
> 
> Wonder how some of the huge barns were built back in the day without engineered lumber?


The Amish are still building them today.


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## sachsmo (Dec 1, 2013)

Deflection, Bah,

Used to work at a pre-stressed concrete plant.

We made 100'+ bridge beams I could stand in the middle of them and jump, that beam would quiver like jello.

Yup them things could span a good bit!


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## Beefie (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks guys for your feed back. I was at my neighbors over hunting season. He has his house at the widest 30' and he has 2 pine logs spaced at 10' apart that go the hole 30' length. No deflecton noted and it has been built for 8 years and heated with wood the whole time. I am trying to find a program for google sketchup. Like google for dummies. I can rough draw everything but can't figure out the sketch up program.

beefie


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## Beefie (Dec 8, 2013)

For you guys that have milled long stuff using a ladder or a plank. How do you get the supports set for your moves? I thought there had been some pictures but I think they are gone after the linkbucks debaclke. Reading on strings or something. Anybody have pictures or a video.

New 36" Alaskan and mini mill has been ordered and should get in 7-15 days, cant wait !!!!!!!!!

Beefie


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## psgflier (Dec 12, 2013)

I made an aluminum frame - two pieces of 1 1/2 angle with 2" flat stock welded 2' apart separating the angles about 10". I screwed a 1x10 to the frame, and melted wax into the wood to protect from water and make the board slippery. I made my guide 10' long, but 6 or 8 would be fine.
I put 3/8' lag bolts into the log paired every 2', The angles on the guide ride on the heads of the lags. I put a board on each end of the log and ran two string lines 9" apart from one end of the log to the other, and set the heads of the lags to just touch the string. After removing the end templates, the guide board slides on the lags, and the mill slides on the board.
It takes a little time to set this up, but after the first two cuts goes pretty good.
I've cut timbers up to 45' long with no more than 1/8 variance in dimension in the timber.


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## Beefie (Dec 12, 2013)

Melted wax, that is a new one for me. What type of wax are you using? Would boiled lindseed oil work as well?

Beefie


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## psgflier (Dec 13, 2013)

I suppose it would work fine. The main purpose is to protect the wood from the weather. We get up to 200" of rain a year, and when the humidity gets down to 60% we think it's dry.
I have had some trouble with dimensional stability on some wooden guides due to moisture changes in the wood.
I use a propane torch to heat the plank and melt paraffin into the wood. Heating the wood opens the pores and gives good penetration. Much like waxing a ski.


Re guarding your cabin; I don't know if you need a building permit, but the building inspector would be a good place to get the requirements for your design.
I'm pretty sure a 4x12 would be sufficient, but you could always go deeper with a 4x14. Laminated beams are stronger because of alternating the grain between pieces, but is limited by the fasteners.
Steel increases practical strength, but, ask your fire chief, is frowned on in practice because of its failure in a fire.
Only the beam supporting the loft needs to support more than its weight, and weight supported by the beam under the loft is the weight of the beam, 1/2 the weight of the floor, and 1/2 the live load on the loft(beds, people, etc.)
If your building a building with equal wall heights on all four walls, a double pitch roof with rafters meeting at a ridge pole, you need at least the two beams you're talking about to act as collar ties; to keep the walls from spreading under the load of the roof.

Carl


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## Beefie (Dec 14, 2013)

psgflier said:


> I suppose it would work fine. The main purpose is to protect the wood from the weather. We get up to 200" of rain a year, and when the humidity gets down to 60% we think it's dry.
> I have had some trouble with dimensional stability on some wooden guides due to moisture changes in the wood.
> I use a propane torch to heat the plank and melt paraffin into the wood. Heating the wood opens the pores and gives good penetration. Much like waxing a ski.
> 
> ...


My thought was to have 5 beams spaced at 2' apart to support the loft floor and 2 beams at 5' apart to tye the walls. One log will go at the edge of the loft and help support the end loft beam and support the ridge beam. proablly not needed but what the heck.

The only thing Im wondering about is the span on the 25' beams for the loft. I might have to put in a wall hafe way underneath and have 2 12' rooms instead of one big room. If I did that I could do 12' loft joists instead.

Not sure yet, I am having one of the town board members e-mail me the building inspectors info to see what he wants.

Beefie


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## Winn R (Dec 14, 2013)

Although milling logs fall into that area of I hope I do this someday, I know something of engineering.

If the long span logs, the loft floor joists, can be made a bit longer so that the ends cantilever out beyond the support walls; it will reduce deflection. The loft floor can be utilized as well, if you're considering a tongue and groove, by dispersing the forces over a larger area. The vertical member extending from the loft edge to the ridge pole could have the opposite function, supporting the long span floor structure.

Good luck with your project!


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## Beefie (Dec 15, 2013)

Cantilever is not a option. Worst case I will just put in a support wall at 12' . Is there a program or calculator that gives load ratings for 2x12-3x12 etc?

Beefie


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## Winn R (Dec 15, 2013)

http://www.awc.org/pdf/WSDD/TOC.pdf

This is the bible for wood structures although I'm not sure you can access it all on line. You'll have lots of fun studying over it!


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## Beefie (Dec 16, 2013)

Winn R said:


> http://www.awc.org/pdf/WSDD/TOC.pdf
> 
> This is the bible for wood structures although I'm not sure you can access it all on line. You'll have lots of fun studying over it!


 Thanks Winn R that's what I was looking for.

Beefie


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## sachsmo (Dec 17, 2013)

Here's a link where you can read to your hearts content, or buy a PDF or hardcopy.

http://www.awc.org/standards/wsdd.php


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