# Not so happy firewood business



## Mike Van (Mar 15, 2009)

This is a copy & paste from craigslist, sounds like a bad investment? *Wanted." Owners of tree companies and landscaping companies looking to work for free splitting firewood. You will be compensated with the feeling that you are filling in time to occupy your men, keep your machines working, and generally produce a warm and fuzzy feeling inside while busting your rump for nothing!! Sounds like a great business proposition doesn't it? If you are seriously interested please take your life savings and blow it on a firewood processor for $80,000, a truck and right hand man that will soak 5x more profit than you would have made had you put that money in the bank! Now. Since you have blown your life savings on a firewood processor that produces a product barely worth anything, how are you going to move it to the customer? Go borrow the money for a dump truck! Whahoo! Now you can be fined by the DEC for moving firewood more that 50 miles, rely on employees that get paid more than you do and deal with all the hell and maintenance that comes with running a truck..Are we having fun yeat! Good luck in the firewood business! I wish you the best!! Here's one idea" Leave you money in the bank and cash out when Interest rates a re high. 
Chad "*


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## Zodiac45 (Mar 15, 2009)

Mike Van said:


> This is a copy & paste from craigslist, sounds like a bad investment? *Wanted." Owners of tree companies and landscaping companies looking to work for free splitting firewood. You will be compensated with the feeling that you are filling in time to occupy your men, keep your machines working, and generally produce a warm and fuzzy feeling inside while busting your rump for nothing!! Sounds like a great business proposition doesn't it? If you are seriously interested please take your life savings and blow it on a firewood processor for $80,000, a truck and right hand man that will soak 5x more profit than you would have made had you put that money in the bank! Now. Since you have blown your life savings on a firewood processor that produces a product barely worth anything, how are you going to move it to the customer? Go borrow the money for a dump truck! Whahoo! Now you can be fined by the DEC for moving firewood more that 50 miles, rely on employees that get paid more than you do and deal with all the hell and maintenance that comes with running a truck..Are we having fun yeat! Good luck in the firewood business! I wish you the best!! Here's one idea" Leave you money in the bank and cash out when Interest rates a re high.
> Chad "*



Sour grapes guy who made poor business decisions. I know plenty of guys who worked hard and are doing ok without spending anywhere near that kind of money.


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## Haywire Haywood (Mar 15, 2009)

Sounds like a guy that didn't do his research before jumping in the hole with both feet... $80K firewood processor? What's he processing, 15' dbh Sequoias?

Ian


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## thejdman04 (Mar 15, 2009)

Its a shame when somones new business doesnt make it, but He should have done his homework better. Some areas the price of firewood aint worth anything. I wonder where he bought an 80,000 dollar firewood processor? Unless he bought a cordking he spent way too much on the processor.


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## husky455rancher (Mar 15, 2009)

good idea buy top notch everything before you have a proven reliable business.


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## Dalmatian90 (Mar 15, 2009)

General business accumen aside, New York did just put in emergency regulations in December that are akin to using a sledge hammer to swat flies.

You can't move firewood > 50 miles, or across state lines, unless it's been kiln dried.

If you have someone located east of the Hudson who was getting wood from western Massachusetts or Connecticut and marketing it into Albany or especially New York City metropolitan areas like Westchester or Long Island...I could see the regulations really putting a crimp into your business plan.

My impression is firewood processors aren't a very organized group -- the DEC's explanation of the rules say they're not worried about timber (better trained to recognize problems) or christmas trees (err, they're not a vector, yeah, that's it!). Can't help but wonder if it's not because both those groups have had longer history of lobbying and working with state agencies. 

So DEC got away with putting in place some rules that are pretty arbitrary and don't offer alternatives. Alternatives, in my mind, are things like what if firewood processors agreed to a certification process to show they can recognize infested wood like the timber companies, or why is 50 miles magical except when you hit a state line -- do the bugs stop at the state line somehow?

I think the New York folks are outside of the comment period now, so I'm not sure what else can be done now. http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/44008.html

(It's also interesting to me the regulation came out of the "animals & insects" division of DEC and not the Forestry division. Seems that Forestry is being continously downgraded in many eastern states -- I noticed researching something else last night that Massachusetts has merged their old Bureau of Forestry into another bureau, creating the awkardly named Bureau of Forest Fire Control and Forestry)


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## freemind (Mar 15, 2009)

husky455rancher said:


> good idea buy top notch everything before you have a proven reliable business.



No kidding. Starting ANY business should be "cash your willing to lose" investment. 

Starting a firewood business when the sales saturate the market, isn't smart. IMO, a good business makes a profit by year two.


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## mga (Mar 15, 2009)

around here, there's a million people selling firewood for all kinds of prices....some are outrageously high.

everyone thinks they're going to get rich quick selling firewood. it's a mostly cash business, so no taxes being paid on alot of it. 

and the tree service people already have a business going, so selling what someone paid to have taken down already and selling it is a nice gig.


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## AOD (Mar 15, 2009)

I think just about anybody can do allright with firewood with a minimal investment, you'll need a pickup, a couple saws and a few mauls. You don't NEED a splitter to start out, but it's sure handy. It's a lot of work though, but you'll make more money than a minimum wage burger joint gig.


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## willsaw4beer (Mar 15, 2009)

AOD said:


> I think just about anybody can do allright with firewood with a minimal investment, you'll need a pickup, a couple saws and a few mauls. You don't NEED a splitter to start out, but it's sure handy. It's a lot of work though, but you'll make more money than a minimum wage burger joint gig.



:agree2: Although the less equipment you have the more you have to bust your :censored:. Nothing wrong with that though... And you aren't paying taxes going to the beloved gov't. which is the biggest + as far as I'm concerned.


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## Soilarch (Mar 15, 2009)

Maybe trying to scare off competitors...or would-be competitors?


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## AOD (Mar 15, 2009)

After a splitter the next good thing to have is a dump truck. Nothing huge or fancy, a 1-ton pickup dump holds about a full cord, can get into tight places and is cheaper to run and register than a big truck. After that an old hay conveyor (to load the truck) would be handy. With this setup you can do a lot of wood fast and come close to keeping up with a small processor. 

My buddy runs a Splitfire 2-way splitter with a nice lift table, it really goes fast and saves a lot of back work.


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## dnf0929 (Mar 15, 2009)

Although I've heard stories like this several times it still blows my mind. I've seen guys in the landscaping/construction business in my area who bought processors before they ever sold firewood or had an idea of where to get a steady supply of log lengths. Guess what? The processors were up for sale really quickly. The one guy admitted he never even factored in that he'd have to wait a year before he could sell any of the wood. It really has nothing to do with what you're selling - it just happens to be firewood in our case. It's about being smart, dedicated and actually liking what you do. If all those happen you'll probably even do alright financially in the long run. 

You get out what you put in. No thought other than making money will always end in failure. Looks at the bank CEO's and Wall Street.


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## thejdman04 (Mar 15, 2009)

Krusty said:


> I thought the top of the line Timberwolfs cost around $80K?



No about 60 65k with all the bells and whistles. COrd kings top of the line is about 97k.


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## Racerboy832 (Mar 16, 2009)

I think that may be mahopacmulch.com who sells Chads good wood that posted that. I could be wrong. But the same person posts wood forsale in the same section. I don't know who comment was directed towards. They seem to have a little higher then most people and charge a delivery fee, They seem very organized but maybe there is problems on the home front.


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## windthrown (Mar 16, 2009)

NY state firewood laws... what a load of ballacks! Along with their anti-OWB laws.


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## nskizwood (Mar 16, 2009)

Getting $75 a Face Cord here. Cut, Split, Stacked, Dried, Stacked again on the Dump, and Delivered. Getting the right price for wood is all about avoiding the cheap/lazy people and the finding the right people that undersatnd and appreciate the time and effort put into the equipment and work! I just enjoy doing it!


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## fishercat (Mar 16, 2009)

*i did well with my set up.*

$2800 American splitter with an $1800 Chevy C-30.

then again,we don't all need to go into debt to impress someone.


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## willsaw4beer (Mar 16, 2009)

windthrown said:


> NY state firewood laws... what a load of ballacks! Along with their anti-OWB laws.



Lol, if you think it's bad try actually living here, #%&@ NY state. I think the wood ban is to crack down on small time firewood cutters who do everything under the table and don't pay taxes on their profits...


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## Bushman_269 (Mar 17, 2009)

willsaw4beer said:


> Lol, if you think it's bad try actually living here, #%&@ NY state. I think the wood ban is to crack down on small time firewood cutters who do everything under the table and don't pay taxes on their profits...



I think they are trying to make burning firewood more expensive to cut down on the number of people burning. Wood will tend to get more expensive due to having to get it locally where supplies may be limited. I love how they exempted timber companies and what about the mulchers?


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## bama (Mar 17, 2009)

fishercat said:


> $2800 American splitter with an $1800 Chevy C-30.
> 
> then again,we don't all need to go into debt to impress someone.



Tell that to our government.


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## fishercat (Mar 17, 2009)

*our government.............*



bama said:


> Tell that to our government.



doesn't listen to me anymore.i make too much sense.:jawdrop:


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## willsaw4beer (Mar 17, 2009)

Bushman_269 said:


> I think they are trying to make burning firewood more expensive to cut down on the number of people burning. Wood will tend to get more expensive due to having to get it locally where supplies may be limited. I love how they exempted timber companies and what about the mulchers?



Very well could be, this damn state has more stupid laws and regulations for who knows why. I have my share of ideas what they need to do but I just have a beer and try not to think about it to keep myself out of trouble.


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## mtfallsmikey (Mar 18, 2009)

MUST HAVE A BUSINESS PLAN!....just 'cuz you can cut wood and split it, doesn't mean you are guaranteed a profit at it!
See disclaimer below:


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## rdbrumfield (Mar 18, 2009)

The gov has really cracked down on the firewood fellows around here. If you have a load on a truck with a sign you better have a business license. I have seen them writing down license plate numbers on loaded pickups and trailers with wood for sale signs on them. Most likely checking that against the unemployment register. Wonder how they sleep at night when they bust a guy that is out of work on unemployment just trying to save his home and feed his kids.
I noticed congress is getting their raise and they can't seem to stop the outrageous ceo packages we the people gave them.


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## thejdman04 (Mar 18, 2009)

rdbrumfield said:


> The gov has really cracked down on the firewood fellows around here. If you have a load on a truck with a sign you better have a business license. I have seen them writing down license plate numbers on loaded pickups and trailers with wood for sale signs on them. Most likely checking that against the unemployment register. Wonder how they sleep at night when they bust a guy that is out of work on unemployment just trying to save his home and feed his kids.
> I noticed congress is getting their raise and they can't seem to stop the outrageous ceo packages we the people gave them.



If they did that around here lots of guys would be hurting


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## Zodiac45 (Mar 19, 2009)

windthrown said:


> NY state firewood laws... what a load of ballacks! Along with their anti-OWB laws.



I'm not sure that the 50 miles effects much? Most firewood providors will not deliver wood that far anyways. You can usually find a local guy. I understand the law is about pest control such as the emerald ash borer. Believe me, that's no joke!


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## Dalmatian90 (Mar 19, 2009)

> I'm not sure that the 50 miles effects much?



I was thinking the shape of New York as it funnels into NYC, it limits the areas that could supply non-kilned firewood pretty dramatically...but looking at Craigslist right now it doesn't seem like there's much of a premium being paid for firewood in the NYC / Long Island area.


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## JAM (Mar 20, 2009)

*Hay conveyor*



AOD said:


> After a splitter the next good thing to have is a dump truck. Nothing huge or fancy, a 1-ton pickup dump holds about a full cord, can get into tight places and is cheaper to run and register than a big truck. After that an *old hay conveyor *(to load the truck) would be handy. With this setup you can do a lot of wood fast and come close to keeping up with a small processor.
> 
> My buddy runs a Splitfire 2-way splitter with a nice lift table, it really goes fast and saves a lot of back work.



Did you have to modify it to use the hay conveyor?


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2009)

rdbrumfield said:


> The gov has really cracked down on the firewood fellows around here. If you have a load on a truck with a sign you better have a business license. I have seen them writing down license plate numbers on loaded pickups and trailers with wood for sale signs on them. Most likely checking that against the unemployment register. Wonder how they sleep at night when they bust a guy that is out of work on unemployment just trying to save his home and feed his kids.
> I noticed congress is getting their raise and they can't seem to stop the outrageous ceo packages we the people gave them.



I have cut and split wood, mostly for personal. It is hard work, especially when you drive yourself hard. No one had a financial gun to my head, no pressure, just how I work. Trying to catch some poor guy working his butt off to look after his family? Good grief.


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## AOD (Mar 20, 2009)

That's why you don't put a sign on your truck or trailer. Stay small, stay under their radar. If you get pulled over just say the wood is going to a friends house. Advertise on Craigslist and use email only, don't have your phone # visible for the narks to see.


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## willsaw4beer (Mar 21, 2009)

I think if the IRS started giving me #### I'd just go out and buy new saws, etc so that my profits were so small they wouldn't get much anyways.


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## Mike Van (Mar 22, 2009)

Under the radar is a good place to be - I wonder if the 'aqua logger' from Ax-men would agree right about now?


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## KsWoodsMan (Mar 24, 2009)

willsaw4beer said:


> I think if the IRS started giving me #### I'd just go out and buy new saws, etc so that my profits were so small they wouldn't get much anyways.



With the price of fuel last Summer there wasn't any need to buy new saws to show a loss. Cutting firewood was mostly just to have something to do in our spare time and a reason to run the saws. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of gasoline/diesel goes back up this Summer. No point in the oil company owners having to scrimp while the rest of the country is in the dumper trying to make ends meet.

What do I do with all that wood ? - I burn it.


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