# No More Logger's



## redprospector (Jan 29, 2009)

I went to a contractor's meeting Tuesday that the State Forestry, Forest Service, and BLM put on. It was very enlightening. I learned that they would like us to quit calling ourselves LOGGER'S, and start calling ourselves "Forest Restoration Experts".  
I asked if they realized that they were talking to a bunch of old loggers, who have never been, or ever wanted to be politically correct.
After all, a logger by any other name is still a logger.

Actually, other than stupid stuff like this, it was a pretty good meeting. 

Andy


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## synness4 (Jan 30, 2009)

hey red are YOU a pro tree killer!!!!!!!!!! in the days of pc I can't ....no it hurts to much to say............


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## Wishie22 (Jan 30, 2009)

redprospector said:


> I went to a contractor's meeting Tuesday that the State Forestry, Forest Service, and BLM put on. It was very enlightening. I learned that they would like us to quit calling ourselves LOGGER'S, and start calling ourselves "Forest Restoration Experts".
> I asked if they realized that they were talking to a bunch of old loggers, who have never been, or ever wanted to be politically correct.
> After all, a logger by any other name is still a logger.
> 
> ...



A garbage man is now called a recycling engineer. They were able to demand wadge increases but still do the same thing.

I would take on a title like Forest Engineer for the extra money:wave:


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## Billy_Bob (Jan 30, 2009)

redprospector said:


> "Forest Restoration Experts".




No, No, No!

Something more modest would be more appropriate....

How about...

Forest Abatement and Renewal Trainee


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## FELLNORTH (Jan 30, 2009)

opcorn:


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## ents (Jan 30, 2009)

Next we have to rename the chainsaw to ----

opcorn: opcorn:


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## forestryworks (Jan 30, 2009)

:monkey: 

some people take themselves way too seriously.

logger's it'll be until the day i die.

keep on how you been, andy


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## Cletuspsc (Jan 30, 2009)

We always had a joke around here when people asked me what i did for a living i'd always say that im a "Fiber Acquisition Technician." But then id always tell em after they couldent figure it out that im a logger.


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## slowp (Jan 30, 2009)

A friend of mine calls thinnings Forest Enhancements when talking to the sensitive people. 

Clearcuts are called Regeneration Cuts.

Logger is easy to spell. That's a good thing.


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## redprospector (Jan 30, 2009)

Billy_Bob said:


> No, No, No!
> 
> Something more modest would be more appropriate....
> 
> ...



Hahaha. I like that one. My dad called me a FART till the day he died.
I think technitian would be a better word for the T. It's harder to spell, and it makes you look like you know what you're doing.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jan 30, 2009)

Wishie22 said:


> A garbage man is now called a recycling engineer. They were able to demand wadge increases but still do the same thing.
> 
> I would take on a title like Forest Engineer for the extra money:wave:



Well, that seems to be part of the problem.
We can no longer be loggers, but must transform ourselves into sensitive, caring individuals who do this job simply for the love of the environment. There is no extra money! They were even talking about lowering the cap's on thinning projects. More for less, that's the outlook.

Andy


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## Lumberjacked (Jan 30, 2009)

Reminds me of the college I graduated from. SUNY Environmental Science and Forestry. They want to take out the "Forestry" part and replace it with some BS natural resource thing, funny the school was founded on Forestry! oooh well just a bunch of Demo *cough*'s


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## 371groundie (Jan 30, 2009)

i dont know about you guys, but im a gravity tester. every so often i cut a tree off the stump and see if it falls down. if it does, all is right with the world. if it doesnt, im supposed to call................i forget.


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## Gologit (Jan 30, 2009)

Logger. Nothing else sounds right. Or feels right, either.


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## stihlkicken (Jan 31, 2009)

*titles*

a title means nothing. i am pretty handy on a drill rig, an excavator, cat, or puttin in a undercut,while drilling a well for a customer last week, he had the audacity to call me a boring engineer,like water on a ducks back, sometimes you just have to laugh and keep workin.stay safe, dan.


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## slowp (Jan 31, 2009)

stihlkicken said:


> a title means nothing. i am pretty handy on a drill rig, an excavator, cat, or puttin in a undercut,while drilling a well for a customer last week, he had the audacity to call me a boring engineer,like water on a ducks back, sometimes you just have to laugh and keep workin.stay safe, dan.



Yes, engineering is boring if you are not Spock like. 
I have a variation of logger that I use with environmental groups who are the ones who should be renamed. I call the loggers SNAiLs for Sensitive New Age Loggers. A SNAiL, even though he thinks it is stupid, costs him more time and money, and whines a bit about it (justified) will go the extra mile to try to make the logging look or turn out well so the environmental or should I just call them mental? people might just be a little bit happier. They are seldom happy.


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## jburlingham (Jan 31, 2009)

Billy_Bob said:


> No, No, No!
> 
> Something more modest would be more appropriate....
> 
> ...



Drop the trainee and add technician, it sounds like its worth more money....


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, engineering is boring if you are not Spock like.
> I have a variation of logger that I use with environmental groups who are the ones who should be renamed. I call the loggers SNAiLs for Sensitive New Age Loggers. A SNAiL, even though he thinks it is stupid, costs him more time and money, and whines a bit about it (justified) will go the extra mile to try to make the logging look or turn out well so the environmental or should I just call them mental? people might just be a little bit happier. They are seldom happy.



Logger...the word is logger. Why should we have to change what we call ourselves to suit the misguided whims of a few people who don't really know anything about our world?

It's not funny anymore.

All this cutsie-pie labeling and eco-friendly catch phrase stuff just shows that we're willing to change who and what we are just to get along. We shouldn't have to do that. 

The enviros and the socially sensitive government people can call it any damn thing they want. It's still logging.

And I'm still a logger.


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## Burvol (Jan 31, 2009)

I brace for what people will come into logging next. I hope they take as much pride in their work as the ones in my family that taught me have. My parent's dinning room looks like an old logging museum, old misery whips, oil bottles, axes, and pictures of my Great Grandad, Grandpa, Dad, Uncles, Me and some others. 

Growing up going to work with Dad as a kid, learning to cut with a 655 poulan with no chain brake, landscaping my parent's place with a D-4 crawler, Making trips to camp 18 and the Redwoods, pulling over and hiking to big trees hiden of main roads and everyone talking about the woods at Thanksgiving is what I grew up with. It's more of a way of life than anything. That's what I think of when I hear the term "Logger". I can't imagine what's next with a new mentality. More important, I wonder what my generation will bring to the table. I see a lot of spoiled soft kids working for their old man doing the minimum and a lot of crying. The men in my family who taught me would settle for nothing short of your best, toughest, effort. I take pride in being an "Old School" type of cutter. Be smart in your moves, grind it out, and take some pride in your work. I have worked with a few younger guys that think that being a good faller is just dumping a bunch of wood and walking away from it not concerned with saving the volume, bucking good logs, or doing things right. I was taught that getting it down is only part of the game. I strive to carry on my family's good work ethic, mental and physical toughness, and the smarts to live another day. Anything less and I would get an ass chewin'.


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## slowp (Jan 31, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Logger...the word is logger. Why should we have to change what we call ourselves to suit the misguided whims of a few people who don't really know anything about our world?
> 
> It's not funny anymore.
> 
> ...



Yes, and on the other tree hugging site where they hate me, somebody will start a thread warning that Logging Is Going To Happen. Apparently that always is bad to them, and means clearcutting, which isn't bad but is to them, is going to be the method used, and deforestation will occur. 

Even locally, folks who are not involved in woods work will shudder about an area being logged. 

Why is logging always equated with being bad?

I start by questioning the complainer as to HOW is it going to be logged? They usually can't answer this question. So, we've got people who don't know what they are talking about, informing others, which makes for 
_*The Circle Of BS*_ and I'll still mention Sensitive New Age Logging and anything else to try to keep the trees hitting the ground. That's the important thing to remember, keep the trees hitting the ground.


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, and on the other tree hugging site where they hate me, somebody will start a thread warning that Logging Is Going To Happen. Apparently that always is bad to them, and means clearcutting, which isn't bad but is to them, is going to be the method used, and deforestation will occur.
> 
> Even locally, folks who are not involved in woods work will shudder about an area being logged.
> 
> ...




In other words, we have to change our ways to suit them? We have to cat-foot around in order not to offend them? 

Why play their game? The information about responsible, environmentally friendly logging is available to them...they choose to ignore it.

There's a world of good information out there about how we log now. It's based on science, good forest practises, and actual experience. If the enviros would rather react emotionally and ignore real world information and experience I don't see where I should have to do more than I'm already doing.

I recognize the fact that you and I log in what amounts to two seperate, and very different, worlds. You're on Federal ground, I work on private ground. The Feds might feel the pressure more than we do and they might feel like they have to pretty things up to satisfy a bunch of very loud and opinionated people. That isn't happening with us quite as much. I'm grateful for that.


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## Burvol (Jan 31, 2009)

Gologit said:


> In other words, we have to change our ways to suit them? We have to cat-foot around in order not to offend them?
> 
> Why play their game? The information about responsible, environmentally friendly logging is available to them...they choose to ignore it.
> 
> ...



As you say, different worlds, but this is even worse. DNR sales in WA state, what RMZ??? Plug the creeks, the ones on the west side that actually hold Salmon stocks below. Private ground? A trickle of water goes through there once a year for two weeks, STAY OUT! 

It's hypocracy, and it's disgusting. I have done this. I was actually told to go ahead and plug some creeks a few times on State ground. The control game is nothing more than just that.


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## Bushler (Jan 31, 2009)

The GreenPeople should be delighted with how the failing economy has put loggers out of business.

Maybe that was the plan all along.


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## Burvol (Jan 31, 2009)

Bushler said:


> The GreenPeople should be delighted with how the failing economy has put loggers out of business.
> 
> Maybe that was the plan all along.



I think Al Gore proved a long time ago that saving the Mother was a profitable business. 

Where you been Paul?


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## PB (Jan 31, 2009)

Gologit said:


> In other words, we have to change our ways to suit them? We have to cat-foot around in order not to offend them?
> 
> Why play their game? The information about responsible, environmentally friendly logging is available to them...they choose to ignore it.
> 
> ...



Do you have to cat-foot around them? Yes you do. Whether you like it or not they are the ones that get the media's attention and with the national "green" craze they will sway more votes than the loggers do. The hard reality of it is, most environmentalists are educated (book smarts not common sense) and have the educational background to get jobs that make decisions about policy. Even though the science and common sense is not in their arsenal of tricks, it doesn't matter as long as they can get someone to agree with their rhetoric. It snowballs from there. 

You can't deny that logging has always been scientifically sound and this environmental movement started with logging abuses that started decades ago. If former loggers had the science information they do now, back then I don't think there would be such a dilemma now. But each side has had their extremists that have further polarized the groups so now a middle ground is pretty hard to obtain. 

I also don't think you can deny that the science that has come from the greenies is all bad. Some is crap but I will agree that the forests now are healthier than they were 30 years ago. As an east coaster I want to see the large trees someday and I want my kids to see them also. The trees are part of the American heritage and not a regional treasure. If logging was allowed to run free a large part of that heritage would be gone. 

Don't get me wrong, I empathize with your situation, but it is give and take and we need both sides for a balance. 

A logger by any other name still cuts down trees and "murders" them. Just like deer "harvester".


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## wilbilt (Jan 31, 2009)

Gologit said:


> All this cutsie-pie labeling and eco-friendly catch phrase stuff just shows that we're willing to change who and what we are just to get along. We shouldn't have to do that.
> 
> The enviros and the socially sensitive govenment people can call it any damn thing they want. It's still logging.
> 
> And I'm still a logger.



Although I am not employed in your profession, all of the environmentally-friendly, politically-correct BS that is being spoon fed to the masses is really getting irritating.

Everything from CARB gas cans to diesel particulate filters to those yellow bumpy mats in parking lots are useless examples of bureaucratic over-regulation.

When I attempt to empty the contents of a 5-gallon CARB can and it takes 5 minutes to gurgle out and splash all over the place, I cannot believe that it is supposed to be better for the environment. I am standing there breathing the escaping fumes for far longer than it would take to dump a standard vented can. Oh, and it's no longer a "gas can". It's a Portable Fuel Container (PFC).

We have a couple of new school buses in our fleet with diesel particulate filters (DPF). When they get full, the exhaust goes into overheat mode, so all the soot can be burned off over the course of a couple of miles (which, I guess must be better than randomly dispersing it like the old buses?).


The Detectable Tactile Warning Mats are supposed to help Vision-Impaired Individuals (you can't say "blind people" anymore) avoid walking into traffic (or I suppose, falling into a stream or walking off a cliff). However, they present a trip hazard to everyone else and are slippery when wet. How do they come up with stuff like this in the name of "safety"?

In our schools, students are taught a rewritten and sanitized version of history, in which lots of Bad Things never happened. Many books are banned in the libraries, because they refer to some of those Bad Things, or even worse, promote Individual Thought.

The shop classes have been discontinued and the shop is now a weight room. I suppose this may be to prepare the underachievers for a life in prison, whereas the shop class may have helped them to learn how to actually build something. Instead, they are taught how to answer the questions on the State Tests, because the state believes this will enable them to grow up and look down upon those who work for a living.

At school too, they are faced with with a bewildering array of ADA-compliant safety structures and are herded around by railings like rats in a maze. Even the playgrounds and equipment protect them from themselves, with surfaces covered in rubber matting made from recycled tires (I thought tires contained carcinogens?) or possibly some fiber material from Genuine Renewable Forest Products. The historic playground covering, called "sand", is no longer allowed, because it is "unsanitary" and cats like to crap in it.

I prefer the days when things were called what they are, improvements actually made things better, and we were taught to be responsible for our actions.


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## slowp (Jan 31, 2009)

Gologit said:


> In other words, we have to change our ways to suit them? We have to cat-foot around in order not to offend them?
> 
> Why play their game? The information about responsible, environmentally friendly logging is available to them...they choose to ignore it.
> 
> ...



Yes, we do have do that here. In the words of a deceased logger, That's Just The Way Things Are. Now, does anybody know where the oil drain plug is located on a Chevy Colorado? That's kind of important right now. 

As for politically correct language..it sucks.


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, we do have do that here. In the words of a deceased logger, That's Just The Way Things Are. Now, does anybody know where the oil drain plug is located on a Chevy Colorado? That's kind of important right now.
> 
> As for politically correct language..it sucks.



Look at the bottom of the oil pan. They're usually at one end or the other or on one side or the other.


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## PB (Jan 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, we do have do that here. In the words of a deceased logger, That's Just The Way Things Are. Now, does anybody know where the oil drain plug is located on a Chevy Colorado? That's kind of important right now.
> 
> As for politically correct language..it sucks.



It's on the oil pan.


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> It's on the oil pan.



opcorn: opcorn: Patty must be changing oil. And she doesn't sound too cheerful about it.


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## slowp (Jan 31, 2009)

:censored: :censored: :censored: new pickups. It has some big pieces of shielding underneath, I can't even see the oil pan or I'd have it draining by now. The filter is right out in the open. I've also got a "helpful" dog assisting.
I'll go look again.


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> :censored: :censored: :censored: new pickups. It has some big pieces of shielding underneath, I can't even see the oil pan or I'd have it draining by now. The filter is right out in the open. I've also got a "helpful" dog assisting.
> I'll go look again.



In all those pieces of shielding there should be a hole, probably about the size of a half dollar. Shine a light up there and see if you can see a drain plug. You might need a socket and an extension to remove the plug if this is the case. 

And, before you take the plug out, think about how hard it might be to thread it back in there. If you cross thread a pan plug you're in for some grief.

Would the owner's manual have the plug location?

And there's always Jiffy Lube.


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## blackoak (Jan 31, 2009)

I always called them crazy sob's that you sure as hell didn't want to piss off.:greenchainsaw:


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## PB (Jan 31, 2009)

Hey slowP, see if there is a little door that opens up to the drain plug in all that shielding.


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## slowp (Jan 31, 2009)

Gologit said:


> In all those pieces of shielding there should be a hole, probably about the size of a half dollar. Shine a light up there and see if you can see a drain plug. You might need a socket and an extension to remove the plug if this is the case.
> 
> And, before you take the plug out, think about how hard it might be to thread it back in there. If you cross thread a pan plug you're in for some grief.
> 
> ...



Hey, we got an oil thread going on here. Jiffy lube is 60+ miles away. The one time I used them, I took the time to look under the hood after they were done and found a cap they left off of one of the vital fluids. There's making an appointment in advance with the local guy, who is not in a convenient location. I took a nap in his office the last time though. 

I think I found it. Much easier to do with the dog in the house. There's a little square cut in the shield. It is a smaller sized head on the plug than I've ever seen though. 

The weather has gone from sun to trying to snow so I'm going to go work on firewood, which is a product of logging being bad but firewooding good. Another messed up thing that the environmental community believes. Maybe because they burn wood?


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Do you have to cat-foot around them? Yes you do.



No, I don't. And I won't either. I'll stick my thumb in their eye every damn chance I get.

That being said, I say further. I'll do it because I can get away with it. I can get away with it now and maybe for awhile longer. Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can do it until the day I can't pack out anymore.

But the younger guys coming up behind me, will they be able to do that and get away with it? No, they won't. You're right about things changing and the loggers that will take my place when I step aside will live in a very different world. The enviros and bunny huggers know how to use the media and they know how to use law. Loggers, to survive, had damn well better learn how, too.

The next generation of loggers will face problems and challenges that I never had to deal with. Us old guys can cuss political correctness and the environmentalists all we want but it's going to be part of the way things are. There is no getting around that.

The younger guys will have to develop tools to deal with the changes in their world . I think they can do it. But I don't envy them.

In the meantime there has to be somebody around to laugh right in the face 
of some of these self-appointed saviors of the planet. I'll be glad to take that job.

Like John D. MacDonald said..."Beware of people who take their crusades too seriously".


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## Burvol (Jan 31, 2009)

A new set of rules to play by (more every year) bad, bad lumber markets, and a new animal or invertibrate is sure to be threatened next. I'd say it's a great time to jump into the business


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

Burvol said:


> A new set of rules to play by (more every year) bad, bad lumber markets, and a new animal or invertibrate is sure to be threatened next. I'd say it's a great time to jump into the business



LMAO...It's too late for you, bucko...you already done jumped. You'll be alright, though. Just help the kids coming up behind you.


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## redprospector (Jan 31, 2009)

Hahaha. Isn't it funny how when we're talking about a topic that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, we can alway's turn to the good old oil topic? 

I felt pretty bad about it when me and just about everyone else around here was demoted from logger to thinning contractor. We all still consider ourselves loggers, we just have to cut a lot more crap. This politically correct name changing is just more than I care to swallow.
Whoever said that the forest's are healthier now than 30 years ago hasn't been to the south west. In the 70's the Lincoln NF was being logged, and was in much better shape than it is now. Hell, it's dieing right before our eye's and the enviro's couldn't care less. We can't even salvage what has died because it's cheaper for the FS to cave into the nut cases than to fight them.
My biggest question is; Who is a true environmentalist, the person who spends their life in the forest, making a living and making sure it's still there for their grand children to make a living in, or some wacco self rightous sack of :censored: that might spend 3 weekends a year in the forest?
I'm a LOGGER, and alway's will be!

Andy


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## forestryworks (Jan 31, 2009)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Isn't it funny how when we're talking about a topic that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, we can alway's turn to the good old oil topic?
> 
> I felt pretty bad about it when me and just about everyone else around here was demoted from logger to thinning contractor. We all still consider ourselves loggers, we just have to cut a lot more crap. This politically correct name changing is just more than I care to swallow.
> Whoever said that the forest's are healthier now than 30 years ago hasn't been to the south west. In the 70's the Lincoln NF was being logged, and was in much better shape than it is now. Hell, it's dieing right before our eye's and the enviro's couldn't care less. We can't even salvage what has died because it's cheaper for the FS to cave into the nut cases than to fight them.
> ...



somebody rep this man. i'm out.

great post andy, especially the last paragraph


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## Gologit (Jan 31, 2009)

forestryworks said:


> somebody rep this man. i'm out.
> 
> great post andy, especially the last paragraph



I got him. Great post.


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## Bushler (Jan 31, 2009)

I like to call myself a timber farmer. That's got a nice charming ring to it.

Jesse, I've been lurking. Pretty busy. Thirty five years telling the wife, "I'll get to that when I'm not logging/fishing, payback has been brutal. She owns me.

I need to get back on the saw or a machine and get some rest!


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## Dok (Jan 31, 2009)

forestryworks said:


> somebody rep this man. i'm out.
> 
> great post andy, especially the last paragraph



I got him too, that was very well said!
Dok


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## joesawer (Feb 1, 2009)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Isn't it funny how when we're talking about a topic that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, we can alway's turn to the good old oil topic?
> 
> I felt pretty bad about it when me and just about everyone else around here was demoted from logger to thinning contractor. We all still consider ourselves loggers, we just have to cut a lot more crap. This politically correct name changing is just more than I care to swallow.
> Whoever said that the forest's are healthier now than 30 years ago hasn't been to the south west. In the 70's the Lincoln NF was being logged, and was in much better shape than it is now. Hell, it's dieing right before our eye's and the enviro's couldn't care less. We can't even salvage what has died because it's cheaper for the FS to cave into the nut cases than to fight them.
> ...








The forest here is in much worse shape than it was 30 years ago. Almost all of the old growth and mature second growth died in the second half of that time. What did not die burned. Billions of dollars of worth of timber burned or rotted (while there was a very strong market for it). The Save Our Forest Foundation should be very proud.
I might be doing residential fuel reductions because the forest products market is so bad, but I will always be a Logger.
Most of the tree huggers here where extremely happy to have loggers come bail them out of their environmental catastrophe that they created. When fires threaten their weekend retreats they are all glad to have trees cut in in order to save them. They are very inconsistent at best.


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## Gologit (Feb 1, 2009)

joesawer said:


> The forest here is in much worse shape than it was 30 years ago. Almost all of the old growth and mature second growth died in the second half of that time. What did not die burned. Billions of dollars of worth of timber burned or rotted (while there was a very strong market for it). The Save Our Forest Foundation should be very proud.
> I might be doing residential fuel reductions because the forest products market is so bad, but I will always be a Logger.
> Most of the tree huggers here where extremely happy to have loggers come bail them out of their environmental catastrophe that they created. When fires threaten their weekend retreats they are all glad to have trees cut in in order to save them. They are very inconsistent at best.



LOL...They like it when we cut out new ski runs for them, too.


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## treejunkie13 (Feb 1, 2009)

I'll go with the name of Timber Harvester, but that's it.
I'm sure that when I do my taxes there will still be LOGGER in the job title.


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## jrizman (Feb 1, 2009)

This is a good thread!

I have learned a ton from LOGGERS, and to add to that, enviros, scientists, professors, etc... 

A wise man once told me we should call clearcuts "George"! In reality its an appropriate silvicultural method for harvesting.

I dont really think Im a logger, nor do I pretend to be. I dont cut logs for mills. I work in the woods, and have not figured out a term that everyone can agree on without issue from someone...

I do cut wood, but its small, and doesnt have any worth (money wise, however, we all know the benefits of thinning small dia crap). There is a change in the way things are being done, no matter what your title is, this has to be recognized and adapted to to make it in this environment. Every public timber harvest WILL be challenged by environmental groups because of what has occurred in the past. Im not saying this is right, but it is a fact. Now as mentioned before we are in worse shape than 30yrs ago, look at the beetles, from southern US to Canada (who is now over 25mill acres dead). 
Saying all that, we have to adapt so we can move wood out and we must work with these groups. Its the only way to produce and help out the forest since we snuff out fires so quickly (thats a whole nother issue, but ill avoid it .

I have lots more to say, but thats enough for now!


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## slowp (Feb 1, 2009)

Gologit said:


> LOL...They like it when we cut out new ski runs for them, too.



They do, but when the cut of the ski trails was narrow, basically a skid trail and then used as a skid trail, which contractually requires erosion control work known as waterbars, they get upset with the waterbars. I contend, being a formerly pretty decent skier, that the waterbars would add more challenge to the run. Even a granola ski area (cross country, of course which the true tree huggers do) needs a challenging run to telecrash down. The chief granola skier got mad and wanted me to MAKE the logger come back and remove the waterbars. I did not. I read the contract to him and explained erosion control requirements. They used money collected from the sale to remove the waterbars after all the logging work was completed. If it were a normal skid trail, they'd want waterbars every couple of feet!--exaggeration used to make a point. Funny how thinking changes depending on one's involvement in the use of the land. 

jrizman, almost every logging project is now challenged not so much because of what happened in the past, but because many people now make their living working for the Environmental INDUSTRY and must justify their existance and collect donations so they can continue to make a living. Lawyers too.  

Now I'm off to change the oil in the Subaru.


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## Gologit (Feb 1, 2009)

slowp said:


> jrizman, almost every logging project is now challenged not so much because of what happened in the past, but because many people now make their living working for the Environmental INDUSTRY and must justify their existance and collect donations so they can continue to make a living. Lawyers too.



Well said.


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## jrizman (Feb 2, 2009)

I dont disagree, but they cant really state that in the lawsuit! 

The ones I have experience with cited stream damage a good proportion of the time (whether it be an endangered fish or water quality...). This seems interesting seeing as how here in MT, harvesting projects in the state audit were recently found to be over 95%(i cant find the exact number right now) in compliance with BMPs (not law here) and SMZ laws...

As my wife says, its a checks and balances system. if everyone did their job, maybe (i say maybe) we would see less frivolous lawsuits (in all arenas) and could get burned and bug hit timber out before it went to waste (as I see about 2/3rds of it does currently get wasted).

good thing our policy makers have so much experience in the field, HAHAHA :bang:


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## PB (Feb 2, 2009)

Gologit said:


> No, I don't. And I won't either. I'll stick my thumb in their eye every damn chance I get.
> 
> That being said, I say further. I'll do it because I can get away with it. I can get away with it now and maybe for awhile longer. Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can do it until the day I can't pack out anymore.
> 
> ...



You *OLD *guys don't, very true. The tree huggers of the 60's grew up and raised a new batch of educated tree huggers. The new environmentalists are more reasonable, my experience anyways, and the extremists are not taken seriously and mostly ignored. The Maine hippies are different than the Oregon hippies though.


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## slowp (Feb 2, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> You *OLD *guys don't, very true. The tree huggers of the 60's grew up and raised a new batch of educated tree huggers. The new environmentalists are more reasonable, my experience anyways, and the extremists are not taken seriously and mostly ignored. The Maine hippies are different than the Oregon hippies though.



Yes. The new tree huggers have educated, spoiled trust fund members in their midst. When their 4 year degree isn't resource related, they have the $$ to go back to school and get a "Masters" in Forestry. Then they are truly experts. Where the old ones spiked trees or sat in them, and still do, the nuevo enviros go to court, and get tax money in the form of grants, to do so.
Yup, way more reasonable. 

On a funnier note, what shall I call us tomorrow? An engineer, road crew guy and me, the forester are going out to set chokers, bump knots and rootwads and skid slide debris trees down a road. . I'm trying to decide which outfit to wear, the weather is hard to dress for right now --cold mornings then above freezing upper 40s.


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## PB (Feb 2, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes. The new tree huggers have educated, spoiled trust fund members in their midst. When their 4 year degree isn't resource related, they have the $$ to go back to school and get a "Masters" in Forestry. Then they are truly experts. Where the old ones spiked trees or sat in them, and still do, the nuevo enviros go to court, and get tax money in the form of grants, to do so.
> Yup, way more reasonable.
> 
> On a funnier note, what shall I call us tomorrow? An engineer, road crew guy and me, the forester are going out to set chokers, bump knots and rootwads and skid slide debris trees down a road. . I'm trying to decide which outfit to wear, the weather is hard to dress for right now --cold mornings then above freezing upper 40s.



I am getting my MS, so I have a trust fund? I wish I knew where to find it. 

:monkey:


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## Burvol (Feb 2, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> I am getting my MS, so I have a trust fund? I wish I knew where to find it.
> 
> :monkey:



I think she was implying stuff out West. There are alot of trust funders out here, go to any of the small timber towns out here that are now recreation meccas and you'll find plenty. In terms of being funny, I guess we could say that owning 16 J-Reds is not a hall pass on being knowledgable in West Coast forestry and logging practices. :greenchainsaw:


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## PB (Feb 2, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I think she was implying stuff out West. There are alot of trust funders out here, go to any of the small timber towns out here that are now recreation meccas and you'll find plenty. In terms of being funny, I guess we could say that owning 16 J-Reds is not a hall pass on being knowledgable in West Coast forestry and logging practices. :greenchainsaw:



Yeah, the Oregon hippies and the Maine hippies are completely different. Here the hippies are all about using what is in the earth, not this we are raping the earth stuff you have out there. 

I know nothing about west coast logging. LOL! I do have a Pioneer P60 with a full wrap handle if that counts! Even a long bar. 

Hardwood logging is what I was raised on and paid for my parents house and my food growing up. Skidders and tri-axle log trucks. 

Up here in Maine is mostly pulp wood with harvesters. Some of University forests have some beautiful trees though. If you think there aren't any big conifers on the east you need to come out and see. PA especially has big trees, it used to have the largest tree east of the Mississippi. Might still be the largest.


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## Burvol (Feb 2, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Yeah, the Oregon hippies and the Maine hippies are completely different. Here the hippies are all about using what is in the earth, not this we are raping the earth stuff you have out there.
> 
> I know nothing about west coast logging. LOL! I do have a Pioneer P60 with a full wrap handle if that counts! Even a long bar.
> 
> ...




OK, a big Pioneer with a long bar, that counts


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## treejunkie13 (Feb 2, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Yeah, the Oregon hippies and the Maine hippies are completely different. Here the hippies are all about using what is in the earth, not this we are raping the earth stuff you have out there.
> 
> I know nothing about west coast logging. LOL! I do have a Pioneer P60 with a full wrap handle if that counts! Even a long bar.
> 
> ...



 Well said!
The tree you speak of, is that in Cook's Forest?


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## PB (Feb 2, 2009)

treejunkie13 said:


> Well said!
> The tree you speak of, is that in Cook's Forest?



Yep the Longfellow pine! I love that area of PA.


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## treejunkie13 (Feb 2, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Yep the Longfellow pine! I love that area of PA.



I would love to put a saw to that area of PA 
just kiddin' hippies!


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## slowp (Feb 2, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I think she was implying stuff out West. There are alot of trust funders out here, go to any of the small timber towns out here that are now recreation meccas and you'll find plenty. In terms of being funny, I guess we could say that owning 16 J-Reds is not a hall pass on being knowledgable in West Coast forestry and logging practices. :greenchainsaw:



And if you get an MS or PHD in Forestry or some resource related field, you know everything there is about those subjects. No need to have worked in the woods, reading and writing papers will do. 
I'd say I'm sorry but I'm not. I've seen too much.


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## Gologit (Feb 2, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> You *OLD *guys don't, very true. The tree huggers of the 60's grew up and raised a new batch of educated tree huggers. The new environmentalists are more reasonable, my experience anyways, and the extremists are not taken seriously and mostly ignored. The Maine hippies are different than the Oregon hippies though.



I'd argue with you but I've spent most of the day arguing with people. I'll get to you later though...count on it. 

In the meantime...go clone a rhutabega. Phhhfffffft.


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## PB (Feb 3, 2009)

slowp said:


> And if you get an MS or PHD in Forestry or some resource related field, you know everything there is about those subjects. No need to have worked in the woods, reading and writing papers will do.
> I'd say I'm sorry but I'm not. I've seen too much.



Don't you get upset when the higher ups decree that all loggers have no clue what they are doing and they would clear cut the forests if they could?

Kind of the same thing. Not all MS or PhD's think they know everything. 



(Oh, and you usually get paid to go to graduate school.)


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## PB (Feb 3, 2009)

Gologit said:


> In the meantime...go clone a rhutabega. Phhhfffffft.



Hey Bob, I don't really care to argue about the hippies out west. There are more important matters to attend to. I have fresh tomatoes!

No rhutabega but I have some great hybrid tomatoes in the greenhouse right now. I love having that thing, fresh veggies all year. I am working on a hybrid with Brandywine and beefsteak tomatoes. After I get the size of the beefsteak with the taste/texture of the Brandywine, I am going to cross it with a purple variety for the antioxidants. 

I can send you some seeds if you want. Not sure if you like tomatoes.


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## Gologit (Feb 4, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Hey Bob, I don't really care to argue about the hippies out west. There are more important matters to attend to. I have fresh tomatoes!
> 
> No rhutabega but I have some great hybrid tomatoes in the greenhouse right now. I love having that thing, fresh veggies all year. I am working on a hybrid with Brandywine and beefsteak tomatoes. After I get the size of the beefsteak with the taste/texture of the Brandywine, I am going to cross it with a purple variety for the antioxidants.
> 
> I can send you some seeds if you want. Not sure if you like tomatoes.



Sounds great! I don't have time to tend a garden...but my sister does. I'll PM you this weekend. Want some kiwis in exchange?


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## PB (Feb 4, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Sounds great! I don't have time to tend a garden...but my sister does. I'll PM you this weekend. Want some kiwis in exchange?



Kiwi's eh? I also have some tomato plants that grow in hanging basket if that would be better.


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## jpvjr (Feb 27, 2009)

slowp said:


> Yes, we do have do that here. In the words of a deceased logger, That's Just The Way Things Are. Now, does anybody know where the oil drain plug is located on a Chevy Colorado? That's kind of important right now.
> 
> As for politically correct language..it sucks.



hello from beautiful (ugh!) iraq. 
the plug is on the thingamajig under the watchamacallit.
you'll see it no problems.


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## jpvjr (Feb 27, 2009)

PlantBiologist said:


> Yeah, the Oregon hippies and the Maine hippies are completely different. Here the hippies are all about using what is in the earth, not this we are raping the earth stuff you have out there.
> 
> I know nothing about west coast logging. LOL! I do have a Pioneer P60 with a full wrap handle if that counts! Even a long bar.
> 
> ...



YEP that's true. look at photos from 1900, & today PA was bald 100 yrs ago. Penn State started to hire "shanty boys, & river pigs" to replant & now look.


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## floyd (Mar 12, 2009)

Eyes on the prize...long as your name is spelled correctly on the check who cares what they call you?


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## Zodiac45 (Mar 12, 2009)

Burvol said:


> A new set of rules to play by (more every year) bad, bad lumber markets, and a new animal or invertibrate is sure to be threatened next. I'd say it's a great time to jump into the business



What happens when we become the endangered species!


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## redprospector (Mar 12, 2009)

Zodiac45 said:


> What happens when we become the endangered species!



I think we already are.
At least as *LOGGERS!*

Andy


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## Gologit (Mar 13, 2009)

redprospector said:


> I think we already are.
> At least as *LOGGERS!*
> 
> Andy



Yup. We're not quite extinct yet, though. We're just kind of hard to see from the road.


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## redprospector (Mar 13, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Yup. We're not quite extinct yet, though. We're just kind of hard to see from the road.



Haha. 
My step son say's that we're like a bunch of dinasaur's that just won't die.

Andy


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## peanut (Mar 18, 2009)

slowp said:


> :censored: :censored: :censored: new pickups. It has some big pieces of shielding underneath, I can't even see the oil pan or I'd have it draining by now. The filter is right out in the open. I've also got a "helpful" dog assisting.
> I'll go look again.



If the gov't had anything to do w/ its engineering there ain't no drain hole. oil leaks out of holes and thats bad.


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