# Underbidding



## TDunk (Mar 16, 2008)

For the past year or so, there has been a small crew around here that has been underbidding everyone else in the area. For instance, last year about Sept. the township had 27 trees they wanted removed. All red elms. 5 had to be dropped and cleaned up, the other 22 just had to be dropped, but i'd say about half of them had to be climbed and sectioned down. I'm not going to say what he bid, but it worked out to be under $70 a tree, wether he had to climb and clean-up or just drop. Another instance was i went to look at a big Hemlock tree that a friend of mine wanted taken down (he live's right down the road from the "competition") As soon as i get home my phone rings and it was my friend. He's says "you'll never believe what just happened" so i ask "what". He said "your competition showed up right after you left saying that he will beet any price that i gave him and that i don't know what i'm doing......blah blah blah". Needless to say he didn't get the job, but i found out today that he's downsizing (getting rid of his bucket truck). Come to find out he's not making enough money to fix his equipment. The clutch is junk in his truck and i'm not sure what wrong with his chipper but it's out for the count. I wasn't going to post this because i didn't want to seem like i was bashing/bad mouthing him. I don't do that. I'm confident in the work i do, and that's all that really concerns me. But on one hand i hate to see people fail at something, but on the other hand i'm glad that his underbidding everyone is starting to catch up to him. I know this is something that alot of people deal with and i just wanted to share it.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 16, 2008)

Happens everywhere especially new startups and it truly turns
the biz to chit. I have thought many times of getting out but am
too committed at this point! I like to work , it seems am one of
the mid to high bidders in my area and try to sell my skill level ,
competence. The customer a lot of times is the problem, they see
price and with that narrow vision, condone bad work and nightmare
stories.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE (Mar 16, 2008)

*Hard to soar like an eagle when surrounded by buzzards*

Tdunk theres a guy here that does advertise he will beat any written proposal! You know what, i believe like a good friend once told me. Be fair, there's plenty of work out there for everyone! If he continues this practice sounds like he's got the titanic syndrome you know.Best of luck to you. Hard to soar like an eagle when surrounded by buzzards!


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## mckeetree (Mar 16, 2008)

I deal with it everyday,everyday. I don't have any problems bashing or bad mouthing people who need it and as of March 2008 that includes about 30% of the people that are in this business. Guys that work for almost nothing usually aren't around long but there is another one ready to take his place. Another thing that irks me is some know-it-all jerk that shows up to bid a job the same time I do and wants to argue PHC with me in front of the client. I told one right in front of the customer the other day to shut the ##### up before I punched him. I got asked to leave but it was worth it. This particular guy waits until I make an an assessment and then he decides he needs to argue (there is one guy here that reminds me of him). Sometimes I have tricked him just to get him to agree with me by saying the opposite of what I really think. And the guy is really not making any money to amount to anything.


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## tree MDS (Mar 16, 2008)

TDunk said:


> For the past year or so, there has been a small crew around here that has been underbidding everyone else in the area. For instance, last year about Sept. the township had 27 trees they wanted removed. All red elms. 5 had to be dropped and cleaned up, the other 22 just had to be dropped, but i'd say about half of them had to be climbed and sectioned down. I'm not going to say what he bid, but it worked out to be under $70 a tree, wether he had to climb and clean-up or just drop. Another instance was i went to look at a big Hemlock tree that a friend of mine wanted taken down (he live's right down the road from the "competition") As soon as i get home my phone rings and it was my friend. He's says "you'll never believe what just happened" so i ask "what". He said "your competition showed up right after you left saying that he will beet any price that i gave him and that i don't know what i'm doing......blah blah blah". Needless to say he didn't get the job, but i found out today that he's downsizing (getting rid of his bucket truck). Come to find out he's not making enough money to fix his equipment. The clutch is junk in his truck and i'm not sure what wrong with his chipper but it's out for the count. I wasn't going to post this because i didn't want to seem like i was bashing/bad mouthing him. I don't do that. I'm confident in the work i do, and that's all that really concerns me. But on one hand i hate to see people fail at something, but on the other hand i'm glad that his underbidding everyone is starting to catch up to him. I know this is something that alot of people deal with and i just wanted to share it.


Dont feel bad about the hate man, just let it flow, its just starting up again in my area and it looks as though its gonna be another year full of hate for the underbidding hacks that are destroying this biz. Let em all die as far as I'm concerned-not literally of course.


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## masterarbor (Mar 16, 2008)

what's going on columbus ohio is that as the economy continues to struggle, all of the companies form the surrounding small towns 50-100 mi. radius are comming here. they park their trucks in gas stations and have area codes i've never even heard of. i know they arn't paying local taxes but they use our roads, etc. alot of times they come with a crew and just knock on doors. the weird thing is they alot of times have like four guys with them and are willing to do anything for like $100.00! how do they do it?!??!! and i don't mean to be too elitest, but 9 times out of 10 they are complete hacks, real hillbilly outfits whos idea of a trim is to spike the central leader and cut EVERYTHING within the chainsaw's reach! or just raise it and get a sucker or two. it is killing the business here. there are a lot of young guys who are enthused about the industry and are certified etc., and i have no problem with them. i don't know why, 'cause they are competition too. well hang in there boys, things are tough all over.

kevin


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 16, 2008)

At the risk of having everyone on here hate me...

I'm an underbidder. Because I need to be. Because poorly paid work is better than no work at all. My partners and I are just getting our business up and running and have no client base whatsoever. We have the skills. Over 20 years collective experience and 1 partner with a bachelors in environmental studies. We trim without spikes ( which no one, even the "big guys" do around here ) removing as much of the tree as we can while still maintaining it's health and appearance. We can tackle almost any takedown, but are still trying to build our business. Are we making money? Not yet. But it's an investment. All our equipment was purchased with funds from our day jobs and we continue to bank whatever we can for more and more equipment/advertising/insurance and every other expense. I feel sorry for the guys we underbid because I know they need work too and the only reason we can do things so cheap is because we have no overhead and still maintain or day jobs. We work 70 to 80 hours per week between our day jobs and our business when the season hits. I understand your guys pain, but I don't want to wear some other guys name on the back of my shirt the rest of my life. I need to start somewhere.


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## mckeetree (Mar 16, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> what's going on columbus ohio is that as the economy continues to struggle, all of the companies form the surrounding small towns 50-100 mi. radius are comming here. they park their trucks in gas stations and have area codes i've never even heard of. i know they arn't paying local taxes but they use our roads, etc. alot of times they come with a crew and just knock on doors. the weird thing is they alot of times have like four guys with them and are willing to do anything for like $100.00! how do they do it?!??!! and i don't mean to be too elitest, but 9 times out of 10 they are complete hacks, real hillbilly outfits whos idea of a trim is to spike the central leader and cut EVERYTHING within the chainsaw's reach! or just raise it and get a sucker or two. it is killing the business here. there are a lot of young guys who are enthused about the industry and are certified etc., and i have no problem with them. i don't know why, 'cause they are competition too. well hang in there boys, things are tough all over.
> 
> kevin



Got that going on here too. Tree services that I have never heard of have been hanging around here for about three months now. Last week we arrived to do a job that was scheduled for that day and there was this guy there trying to get the home owner to let him do it. The guy had about 300 band aids on him I don't know what was up with that and smelled like an old goat pen. Area code from the number on his truck indicated he was from Arkansas. He had a couple Mexicans in the truck with him but they didn't get out. Then I find out he was the one who ruined the peoples trees a door or two down. The customer starts to explain that we do their work and have for the past 17 years when about that time he starts to scream that he knows something about us cutting the wrong tree down somewhere in Ark.(I have never worked in Ark.) Home owner finally got the guy out of there.


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## mckeetree (Mar 16, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> At the risk of having everyone on here hate me...
> 
> I'm an underbidder. Because I need to be. Because poorly paid work is better than no work at all. My partners and I are just getting our business up and running and have no client base whatsoever. We have the skills. Over 20 years collective experience and 1 partner with a bachelors in environmental studies. We trim without spikes ( which no one, even the "big guys" do around here ) removing as much of the tree as we can while still maintaining it's health and appearance. We can tackle almost any takedown, but are still trying to build our business. Are we making money? Not yet. But it's an investment. All our equipment was purchased with funds from our day jobs and we continue to bank whatever we can for more and more equipment/advertising/insurance and every other expense. I feel sorry for the guys we underbid because I know they need work too and the only reason we can do things so cheap is because we have no overhead and still maintain or day jobs. We work 70 to 80 hours per week between our day jobs and our business when the season hits. I understand your guys pain, but I don't want to wear some other guys name on the back of my shirt the rest of my life. I need to start somewhere.



That whole deal right there is kinda pitiful.


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## masterarbor (Mar 16, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> Got that going on here too. Tree services that I have never heard of have been hanging around here for about three months now. Last week we arrived to do a job that was scheduled for that day and there was this guy there trying to get the home owner to let him do it. The guy had about 300 band aids on him I don't know what was up with that and smelled like an old goat pen. Area code from the number on his truck indicated he was from Arkansas. He had a couple Mexicans in the truck with him but they didn't get out. Then I find out he was the one who ruined the peoples trees a door or two down. The customer starts to explain that we do their work and have for the past 17 years when about that time he starts to scream that he knows something about us cutting the wrong tree down somewhere in Ark.(I have never worked in Ark.) Home owner finally got the guy out of there.



holy cow! what a trip!


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm not sure how that's pitiful. I've never been shy of working hard and we've only been investing toward the business for about a year and a half now. I don't care if I gotta bust a// for the next 5/10 years in order to build a decent business. Once we get more customers we'll quit our day jobs and go full time and most likely our prices will go up as our overhead does. But right now, we don't lack time as much as we do clients. Case in point...me. here. now.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 16, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'm not sure how that's pitiful. I've never been shy of working hard and we've only been investing toward the business for about a year and a half now. I don't care if I gotta bust a// for the next 5/10 years in order to build a decent business. Once we get more customers we'll quit our day jobs and go full time and most likely our prices will go up as our overhead does. But right now, we don't lack time as much as we do clients. Case in point...me. here. now.



Blake we all start somewhere, but let me explain something I have learned. If you offer a premium service, charge a fair to premium price. All you do by your approach is make sure you can't progress. It is harder to shake the stigma of the cheapest in town syndrome, than it is to come down if your getting known as the highest! You will lose clients sure, you will lose the ones that I found through experience, your better off without! Most of my clients buy me,my expertise and reputation for quality no problem work. If you focus more on that and keep price fair to both; the customer and yourself you will grow much faster and be an asset to the industry!


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## ropensaddle (Mar 16, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> Got that going on here too. Tree services that I have never heard of have been hanging around here for about three months now. Last week we arrived to do a job that was scheduled for that day and there was this guy there trying to get the home owner to let him do it. The guy had about 300 band aids on him I don't know what was up with that and smelled like an old goat pen. Area code from the number on his truck indicated he was from Arkansas. He had a couple Mexicans in the truck with him but they didn't get out. Then I find out he was the one who ruined the peoples trees a door or two down. The customer starts to explain that we do their work and have for the past 17 years when about that time he starts to scream that he knows something about us cutting the wrong tree down somewhere in Ark.(I have never worked in Ark.) Home owner finally got the guy out of there.



Easy on the Arkansan we ain't all bad Tex  May be the bunch
we had here that fell the tree on a house and split.


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## sharkfin12us (Mar 16, 2008)

TDunk said:


> For the past year or so, there has been a small crew around here that has been underbidding everyone else in the area. For instance, last year about Sept. the township had 27 trees they wanted removed. All red elms. 5 had to be dropped and cleaned up, the other 22 just had to be dropped, but i'd say about half of them had to be climbed and sectioned down. I'm not going to say what he bid, but it worked out to be under $70 a tree, wether he had to climb and clean-up or just drop. Another instance was i went to look at a big Hemlock tree that a friend of mine wanted taken down (he live's right down the road from the "competition") As soon as i get home my phone rings and it was my friend. He's says "you'll never believe what just happened" so i ask "what". He said "your competition showed up right after you left saying that he will beet any price that i gave him and that i don't know what i'm doing......blah blah blah". Needless to say he didn't get the job, but i found out today that he's downsizing (getting rid of his bucket truck). Come to find out he's not making enough money to fix his equipment. The clutch is junk in his truck and i'm not sure what wrong with his chipper but it's out for the count. I wasn't going to post this because i didn't want to seem like i was bashing/bad mouthing him. I don't do that. I'm confident in the work i do, and that's all that really concerns me. But on one hand i hate to see people fail at something, but on the other hand i'm glad that his underbidding everyone is starting to catch up to him. I know this is something that alot of people deal with and i just wanted to share it.



What goes around comes around.


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## mckeetree (Mar 16, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Easy on the Arkansan we ain't all bad Tex  May be the bunch
> we had here that fell the tree on a house and split.



No offense. I didn't catch it but one of my men said they heard him say he was from Mountain Home Ark. I'm not sure where that is.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 16, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> No offense. I didn't catch it but one of my men said they heard him say he was from Mountain Home Ark. I'm not sure where that is.



Thats is way up north by the Missouri boarder!


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 16, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> That whole deal right there is kinda pitiful.



+1 Bid the work for what it is worth. You are using up the equipment underbidding so even with no overhead when it catches up to you by way of maintenance costs it will kill your business almost as fast as your rep for being cheap. Relearn basic business skills before you get in a real pickle.:bang:


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## TimberMcPherson (Mar 17, 2008)

I worked for an underbidder and became one myself before discovering that it wasnt the way, it was why after over 10 years my old boss still works using a trailer and pickup, while I have a fully set up 4wd tipping cab over and chipper (and stumpgrinder, and rigging gear, and all pro saws, and winches etc etc etc)


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## TDunk (Mar 17, 2008)

sharkfin12us said:


> What goes around comes around.



Is that a kick on me or the other guy. The whole reason i wasn't going to post this was because i didn't want to become a "basher".


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## lxt (Mar 17, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> At the risk of having everyone on here hate me...
> 
> I'm an underbidder. Because I need to be. Because poorly paid work is better than no work at all. My partners and I are just getting our business up and running and have no client base whatsoever. We have the skills. Over 20 years collective experience and 1 partner with a bachelors in environmental studies. We trim without spikes ( which no one, even the "big guys" do around here ) removing as much of the tree as we can while still maintaining it's health and appearance. We can tackle almost any takedown, but are still trying to build our business. Are we making money? Not yet. But it's an investment. All our equipment was purchased with funds from our day jobs and we continue to bank whatever we can for more and more equipment/advertising/insurance and every other expense. I feel sorry for the guys we underbid because I know they need work too and the only reason we can do things so cheap is because we have no overhead and still maintain or day jobs. We work 70 to 80 hours per week between our day jobs and our business when the season hits. I understand your guys pain, but I don't want to wear some other guys name on the back of my shirt the rest of my life. I need to start somewhere.





Not to sound mean, but it is guys like you that have turned this biz into the low paying, non respected job that it has become.

I have underbid people....we all have, but its done properly its not the show up, jump outta the car & tell the homeowner "I`ll beat any bid" syndrome!! door knockin as was described is pitiful & cheapens the trade!!

Good for you not spiking trims, good for you having 20yrs collectively(which some of us have by our selves), good for the partner with his little BA in enviromental studies............Now when do you guys plan on learning to run a biz? Instead of being cutthroats......BE PROFESSIONAL!!!! you`ll grow quicker & be respected more so this way than how you`re doing it!!


LXT.................nothing like moonlighting tree trimmers!! "yes maam I work at the papermill by day, then at quiting time I become super trimmer"


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## tomtrees58 (Mar 17, 2008)

can you sleep at night look be hind you at all times duck and move out of town tom trees


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## TDunk (Mar 17, 2008)

tomtrees58 said:


> can you sleep at night look be hind you at all times duck and move out of town tom trees



This is exactly why i was going to keep my mouth shut.


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## DKdeOhio (Mar 17, 2008)

*just my opinion...*

Hey T-Dunk - 
Don't get stressed about the negative feedback on this thread. You're just facing the brunt of the frustration honest tree guys (and gals) face in the industry with 'Chainsaw Cowboys' jumpin' out of every truck to make a quick buck. But I hope the message rings with some clarity - if you are an underbidder, you are absolutely setting yourself up for failure. As already noted, you will never make a living, and you'll get a reputation as a lowballer (great point from earlier) and people will expect those prices ("well you cut old man Johnson's elm for $200!")...you'll be in a continous cycle, working a hazardous job for little compensation, always trying to keep equip fixed, etc....my advice, is to work harder and smarter, not cheaper. If you are willing to educate yourself (trees, PPE, business, etc.) and plain old' work harder than the next the guy, you'll find success. Of course, what do I know - I'm just a part-time "Super Trimmer" (thanks lxt....)


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## TDunk (Mar 17, 2008)

DKdeOhio said:


> Hey T-Dunk -
> Don't get stressed about the negative feedback on this thread. You're just facing the brunt of the frustration honest tree guys (and gals) face in the industry with 'Chainsaw Cowboys' jumpin' out of every truck to make a quick buck. But I hope the message rings with some clarity - if you are an underbidder, you are absolutely setting yourself up for failure. As already noted, you will never make a living, and you'll get a reputation as a lowballer (great point from earlier) and people will expect those prices ("well you cut old man Johnson's elm for $200!")...you'll be in a continous cycle, working a hazardous job for little compensation, always trying to keep equip fixed, etc....my advice, is to work harder and smarter, not cheaper. If you are willing to educate yourself (trees, PPE, business, etc.) and plain old' work harder than the next the guy, you'll find success. Of course, what do I know - I'm just a part-time "Super Trimmer" (thanks lxt....)



DK, I'm not even really sure if the negative feedback is directed towards me or not, but nun the less i thought the topic should have been brought up. That's the only reason i posted it. I'm confident in the work i do. I do good work at a fair price and that's all i need to worry about. I wasn't trying to bad mouth him at all (and i even said that in the original post) I was just trying to lead up to the fact that people who do under bid all the time end up hurting themselves in the long run. But thanks for the support.


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## tree MDS (Mar 17, 2008)

I dont know if the underbidders generally know that they are doing it or not. I have the bidding advantage of having worked in the same area for pretty much 20 years-12 on my own, so I've heard alot of prices and think I have a pretty good idea what things should be. Well when I come in at say 2400, and some guy says 1500-I look like the thief and in the homeowner's eye that 1500 IS what that job is worth. It doesnt matter if this guy goes out of buisiness eventually, he is still killing the biz for everyone else-and making it look like I'm a thief while at it. So all my years of trying to be fair and get as close to top dollar and still get work are negated, in short now I have to start learning to bid all over again??- based on what? How can you figure a bid against someone that has no idea what they are talking about? I try to bid so that can afford to run a real buisiness, would'nt it be so much easier if we all did.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm a "part time Super Trimmer" also. But, I have to clarify that. We ONLY do removals. I respect the profession too much to try to present myself as the ultimate answer to all tree health issues. I would rather do what we do best and enjoy it, than to try to do "anything for a buck" just to get by. We started doing removals for friends and family only. We (2 of the 3 partners) heat with wood and saw it as a source. That was 30 years ago. Our team has worked well together, with two of us experienced (30 years and 20 years) climbers and all three of us experienced in proper SAFE saw use and experienced in rigging. We do not intentionally under bid others, however sometimes our price just happens to be lower. We would rather do a few great jobs at a decent pay level than to work our tails off for next to nothing.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 17, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> ...Well when I come in at say 2400, and some guy says 1500-I look like the thief and in the homeowner's eye that 1500 IS what that job is worth...



Tree - We have had opportunity to be on both sides of your example. We turn down a lot of jobs that would be better done by a bucket truck or crane. But when we do price a job, we look at what it really takes to do the job. We have bid on a few jobs requiring climbing and been beat by a guy needing to make the payments on his new bucket truck. We have also beat a previous low bidder because we have very little overhead. It's not always unfair bid practices. Sometimes it's simply the economics of your choice to maintain a fleet of equipment that may not be needed on all jobs.

We have had the frustrations of the local "hacks" also. I know what you mean about them. But there are legitimate bidding practices that, due to a variety of overhead costs, produce lower cost options for the customers.


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## tree MDS (Mar 17, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Tree - We have had opportunity to be on both sides of your example. We turn down a lot of jobs that would be better done by a bucket truck or crane. But when we do price a job, we look at what it really takes to do the job. We have bid on a few jobs requiring climbing and been beat by a guy needing to make the payments on his new bucket truck. We have also beat a previous low bidder because we have very little overhead. It's not always unfair bid practices. Sometimes it's simply the economics of your choice to maintain a fleet of equipment that may not be needed on all jobs.
> 
> We have had the frustrations of the local "hacks" also. I know what you mean about them. But there are legitimate bidding practices that, due to a variety of overhead costs, produce lower cost options for the customers.


So you wish to stay with "very little overhead"? -not being sarcastic either.


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## Metals406 (Mar 17, 2008)

I think most businesses have this problem. I started a fab shop 4 years ago, with about 15 already operating locally. That same year, another 15 shops opened. The competition was crazy. I set my rates on the average of the going rate, while other shops were much cheaper (And a lot of their work was too).

I also do carpentry, and have had the same experience. I remember a deck remod I did on a turn of the century home. None of the lumber dimensions are used anymore, so everything had to be custom made/fit (and there was a lot of ant/rot damage). I estimated the job, and started work the next week. The middle-man for the homeowner came up to me when the job was done (and it was time to get paid) and told me the homeowner had a guy tell him he could build both the rear and front decks from scratch for $500.00!!??

I told him to send that guy to my house, 'cause I wanted a deck for that price. . . . Seeing as the materials for just a remod totaled $850.00.


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## corndogg (Mar 17, 2008)

I have old paid for equipment with no payments except for advertising and fuel/disposal. Lowest possible overhead I would say. I bid jobs for what their worth I would say. I bid them as low as I can without feeling stupid about it and I get underbid constantly! Why would I climb into a tree with a chainsaw if I'm not gonna come out with a decent chunk of money?  Any less and I'm just keepin' busy. I'll sit home rather than do it cheap.

It seems after I tell them the proper way to do the job and give them a price, their next mission is to get it done cheaper. And they will definately find someone cheaper! If they do say "go ahead" I have them sign the proposal and give a 25% down payment. Now the job is as good as done. Otherwise the next doorknocker or guy workin' down the road will definately do it cheaper as they are already there.


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## corndogg (Mar 17, 2008)

As far as building a business. i don;t think there is much loyalty these days. Lowest price wins. I've always figured the value of a landscape or tree business is what the equipment will bring at auction. It's only worth more to the guy who owns it and can make it work for them.


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## TDunk (Mar 17, 2008)

Around here, certifications,PHC, etc. don't mean anything at all. So it wouldn't matter if i had all the certs. in the world and offered more than the competition, they'll usually go with the lowest bidder. I'd say about half the people around here would rather have it done safely and spend a little more (Those are the people i do the most work for) but the other half just want it done as cheap as possible.


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## tree MDS (Mar 17, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Around here, certifications,PHC, etc. don't mean anything at all. So it wouldn't matter if i had all the certs. in the world and offered more than the competition, they'll usually go with the lowest bidder. I'd say about half the people around here would rather have it done safely and spend a little more (Those are the people i do the most work for) but the other half just want it done as cheap as possible.



Tdunk, a little off topic here but how do you like the 362xp? what size bar do you run? I have a trusty ole 262xp thats getting a lot tired, I've allways run a 18" bar on it, that was one of the best/most reliable saws ever.


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## corndogg (Mar 17, 2008)

I'd say about half of the services around here trim with spikes also. I tell the customers: No matter who you hire, never to let anyone use spikes on their live trees and explain why. They are usually very appreciative. Also the certified arborist thing. If I've gotta do it right, then they should too damn it!


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## DKdeOhio (Mar 17, 2008)

*Lower prices DON'T always equate to Lowballers...*



tree MDS said:


> Well when I come in at say 2400, and some guy says 1500-I look like the thief and in the homeowner's eye that 1500 IS what that job is worth. It doesnt matter if this guy goes out of buisiness eventually, he is still killing the biz for everyone else-and making it look like I'm a thief while at it. So all my years of trying to be fair and get as close to top dollar and still get work are negated, in short now I have to start learning to bid all over again??- based on what? How can you figure a bid against someone that has no idea what they are talking about? I try to bid so that can afford to run a real buisiness, would'nt it be so much easier if we all did.



I am not sure about you, Tree MDS, but I don’t base my estimate on anyone’s elses prices. I base my estimate on what it will cost me to do the job and make a profit. Maybe the job you discussed is a $2400 job to you, and a $1500 job to me. That makes me a low-baller? What if after paying all of my overhead (and remaining ‘legal,’) I still walk away with $600, but it takes me extra time. Then its a good job for me. By your logic, if Davey Tree bids the same job for $3200, are you a lowballer?? Its a ‘$3200 Tree’ to them.... 
I don't think you look like a thief because you quoted more, happens everywhere in all aspects of business. Sometimes I'll pay the lowest price, but other times I'll pay more because I like / trust the saleman(woman) more. Just the way it is in a capitalistic society (sans unions.) 
To me, economics plays a major role in the dictation of pricing. Yeah, I’d love to charge what the “Big Dogs” charge for tree work, but that is not realistic for me, or to many consumers who choose ‘who will do the work for them. That $2400 tree job is only worth $2400 if you can sell it to the consumer; if you can’t then its not a $2400 tree job. Maybe it is a $1500 job, or maybe a $1350 job to a better salesman than you or me. I know that in a good majority of jobs I do, I am NOT the lowest offer.... Some people just price shop, and you’ll never get all those jobs. Others are just un-educated (on trees) just waiting for you to educate them and make them a life-long customer. Thats the way I see it.
To me, the lowballer is the guy who charges ‘pennies on the dollar.’ If that $2400 tree gets cutdown by some yahoos for $500 – yep, them’s probably lowballers. The guys who find out what you charge and then “beat” that price by a couple hundred – yep, lowballers. The morons from Arkansas chasing prices (see above) – yeah, I’d say they are lowballers too. But, I don’t worry about those guys, because they’ll be bagging my groceries in the near future, not doing tree work....


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## corndogg (Mar 17, 2008)

I agree with Ohio. Nothing wrong with Wal-mart doing it cheaper because they can sadly. But I think we should still worry about the lowballers because they make us all look bad and even though they will be bagging groceries there is a never ending supply of lowballers out there. How many of you guys are licensed with the cities you work in? This may be the first step in cracking down on hacks. about 50% of the cities around here require licensing but never seem to enforce. None require arborist certification YET. If we can push all cities to require licensing and certification and enforce then bye bye weekend warrior. Suck to pay all the licensing fees but I don't see any other way. Should have list of phone numbers to call in unlicensed door knockers. What do ya think?


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 17, 2008)

For a bit of clarification, I'm not a jump out of the pickup, badmouth the guy down the street for exorbitant rates, door-knockin' type of guy. Never done any of those things and never will. All my equipment is bought and paid for w/in the past year and a half that we've been working. I know we don't have as much experience or training as the majority of people in this forum or even on the local scene here but we're still young and have a long way to go. We do good work and people are starting to notice. My question is this. If I don't have enough work to keep me busy more than a day or two a week now, how can I start a "real" business and assume that everything will simply fall into place? I still lose jobs because of the price and I would rather take a few hundred dollars off the bill than sit at home on Sunday. I want my equipment on the road so people see it. Yeah, the other guys around here may hate me because they know I'm funding my "business" with my day job but I'm not about ready to go full time if the work isn't there. And if I hadn't been sinking my paychecks into equipment the past year I'd be like the hacks around here with one or two saws and a pick-up. I'm trying to get my equipment and client base built up before I need to depend on it full time. Yeah it hurts the established businesses but I didn't get into this for their sake. I did it for mine.


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## tree MDS (Mar 17, 2008)

DKdeOhio said:


> I am not sure about you, Tree MDS, but I don’t base my estimate on anyone’s elses prices. I base my estimate on what it will cost me to do the job and make a profit. Maybe the job you discussed is a $2400 job to you, and a $1500 job to me. That makes me a low-baller? What if after paying all of my overhead (and remaining ‘legal,’) I still walk away with $600, but it takes me extra time. Then its a good job for me. By your logic, if Davey Tree bids the same job for $3200, are you a lowballer?? Its a ‘$3200 Tree’ to them....
> I don't think you look like a thief because you quoted more, happens everywhere in all aspects of business. Sometimes I'll pay the lowest price, but other times I'll pay more because I like / trust the saleman(woman) more. Just the way it is in a capitalistic society (sans unions.)
> To me, economics plays a major role in the dictation of pricing. Yeah, I’d love to charge what the “Big Dogs” charge for tree work, but that is not realistic for me, or to many consumers who choose ‘who will do the work for them. That $2400 tree job is only worth $2400 if you can sell it to the consumer; if you can’t then its not a $2400 tree job. Maybe it is a $1500 job, or maybe a $1350 job to a better salesman than you or me. I know that in a good majority of jobs I do, I am NOT the lowest offer.... Some people just price shop, and you’ll never get all those jobs. Others are just un-educated (on trees) just waiting for you to educate them and make them a life-long customer. Thats the way I see it.
> To me, the lowballer is the guy who charges ‘pennies on the dollar.’ If that $2400 tree gets cutdown by some yahoos for $500 – yep, them’s probably lowballers. The guys who find out what you charge and then “beat” that price by a couple hundred – yep, lowballers. The morons from Arkansas chasing prices (see above) – yeah, I’d say they are lowballers too. But, I don’t worry about those guys, because they’ll be bagging my groceries in the near future, not doing tree work....



What I'm saying is that having been at this awhile and knowing what others try to get per day, and knowing what I need to get per day, I break that down into an hourly rate and then try and figure out how many hours/days the job should take-based on that rate. That rate is pretty much the industry standard in my area for a real tree service thats legit and has all equipment/skills to compete, this is based on what it costs to run a real biz. I think that if I dont charge enough I'll never get anywhere, and never be able to buy new big toys when I'm older, you cant just tell yer customers "oh yeah, it just went up 400 a day, I bought a all wheel drive 80 footer"-ya gotta kind of work up to it.


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## TDunk (Mar 17, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Tdunk, a little off topic here but how do you like the 362xp? what size bar do you run? I have a trusty ole 262xp thats getting a lot tired, I've allways run a 18" bar on it, that was one of the best/most reliable saws ever.



I really like mine. i have a 20" bar on it and mainly use it for firewood, but it's a great all-around use saw IMO. On the rare ocation i've taken it up the the tree with me. It may be a little heavier than the Stihl 361 but it think it performs better everywhere.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 17, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> So you wish to stay with "very little overhead"? -not being sarcastic either.





tree MDS said:


> What I'm saying is that having been at this awhile and knowing what others try to get per day, and knowing what I need to get per day, I break that down into an hourly rate and then try and figure out how many hours/days the job should take-based on that rate. That rate is pretty much the industry standard in my area for a real tree service thats legit and has all equipment/skills to compete, this is based on what it costs to run a real biz. I think that if I dont charge enough I'll never get anywhere, and never be able to buy new big toys when I'm older, you cant just tell yer customers "oh yeah, it just went up 400 a day, I bought a all wheel drive 80 footer"-ya gotta kind of work up to it.



To answer your "dig" in the first quote above: No, I don't plan to stay with very little overhead. That's why I don't lowball. But for now, with my "very little overhead", I have no need to chrage an hourly rate for a 70' bucket truck sitting by the curb (since it can't get in the back yard) while a climber (usually me in our company) goes up the tree and pieces it out, roping it to safely miss the ornamentals all around the base of the tree. I accomplish exactly the same task, in the same amount of time, with fewer man-hours (less guys standing around), and no machinery overhead sitting idle. 

I don't do the job without going through the exact same process you describe in the second quote above. We just have a different basis for determining that daily rate because we don't always have the equipment cost to account for. As I stated earlier, we do only removals. We are usually called on to do the close quarters jobs or the ones that fall in the complexity range between "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service" and "Big Jim's Impressive Fleet of Tree Stuff". We sledom beat "Bubba's" price (and don't want to), but we are successful when our price is compared to "Big Jim's".

I am in no way saying that low-balling is a good thing!


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 17, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Around here, certifications,PHC, etc. don't mean anything at all. So it wouldn't matter if i had all the certs. in the world and offered more than the competition, they'll usually go with the lowest bidder. I'd say about half the people around here would rather have it done safely and spend a little more (Those are the people i do the most work for) but the other half just want it done as cheap as possible.



I started out in this business dealing with the cheap customers. Never Again! They did not care about anything else but the price of the work. They are not worth the time or energy. There is a sucker born every minute rings true in this business both for the customer and for the fly by night outfits. If you are giving quotes for work that are less than what it would cost the homeowner to buy/rent the equipment needed and attempt the job themselves than why in the heck are you even trying to successfully run a tree business? 
LXT, I understand your frustration. When times are tough a lot of multi-skilled people jump into sidework to help supplement their income and unfortunately many of them are ill-prepared/ ill-advised and wind up giving away their work for free. Just talk to any young buck who has dollar signs in his eyes after doing the tree for 500 bucks that a professional crew wouldnt touch for under 1200! Who do you blame? The kid ? The homeowner? The previous undercutters who set the stage? Watch that same kids eyes get really big when you start talking about insurance, liability, and help him realize how he got "taken" buy a clever old codger with a lot of money! It takes money to make money. The disparity between the haves and have nots continues to widen and it is ignorance in financial matters and sound business practices that will continue to widen this gap.


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 17, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> For a bit of clarification, I'm not a jump out of the pickup, badmouth the guy down the street for exorbitant rates, door-knockin' type of guy. Never done any of those things and never will. All my equipment is bought and paid for w/in the past year and a half that we've been working. I know we don't have as much experience or training as the majority of people in this forum or even on the local scene here but we're still young and have a long way to go. We do good work and people are starting to notice. My question is this. If I don't have enough work to keep me busy more than a day or two a week now, how can I start a "real" business and assume that everything will simply fall into place? I still lose jobs because of the price and I would rather take a few hundred dollars off the bill than sit at home on Sunday. I want my equipment on the road so people see it. Yeah, the other guys around here may hate me because they know I'm funding my "business" with my day job but I'm not about ready to go full time if the work isn't there. And if I hadn't been sinking my paychecks into equipment the past year I'd be like the hacks around here with one or two saws and a pick-up. I'm trying to get my equipment and client base built up before I need to depend on it full time. Yeah it hurts the established businesses but I didn't get into this for their sake. I did it for mine.



Blakes, sorry for being hard on you earlier you just gave the initial picture of being a sucker but in hindsight helped liven up a good thread. When it comes to growing your business: you will know when it is time to jump out of the nest.... and into the fire You have the right idea, keep your overhead low, avoid financing, and keep the advertising out there where people can see it! ( Back of the chipper in big print works wonders!) There is nothing more satisfying than working for yourself, having buddies who know the score and are there for you in a pinch, and the satisfaction of a job well done and well paid!


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## tree MDS (Mar 17, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> To answer your "dig" in the first quote above: No, I don't plan to stay with very little overhead. That's why I don't lowball. But for now, with my "very little overhead", I have no need to chrage an hourly rate for a 70' bucket truck sitting by the curb (since it can't get in the back yard) while a climber (usually me in our company) goes up the tree and pieces it out, roping it to safely miss the ornamentals all around the base of the tree. I accomplish exactly the same task, in the same amount of time, with fewer man-hours (less guys standing around), and no machinery overhead sitting idle.
> 
> I don't do the job without going through the exact same process you describe in the second quote above. We just have a different basis for determining that daily rate because we don't always have the equipment cost to account for. As I stated earlier, we do only removals. We are usually called on to do the close quarters jobs or the ones that fall in the complexity range between "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service" and "Big Jim's Impressive Fleet of Tree Stuff". We sledom beat "Bubba's" price (and don't want to), but we are successful when our price is compared to "Big Jim's".
> 
> I am in no way saying that low-balling is a good thing!



Dude, I wasnt rippin on you, thats why I said "I'm not being sarcastic," just for the record friend.


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## tree MDS (Mar 17, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> To answer your "dig" in the first quote above: No, I don't plan to stay with very little overhead. That's why I don't lowball. But for now, with my "very little overhead", I have no need to chrage an hourly rate for a 70' bucket truck sitting by the curb (since it can't get in the back yard) while a climber (usually me in our company) goes up the tree and pieces it out, roping it to safely miss the ornamentals all around the base of the tree. I accomplish exactly the same task, in the same amount of time, with fewer man-hours (less guys standing around), and no machinery overhead sitting idle.END QUOTE. Then why would'nt you charge the same? Not critisizing because I did the same thing for years- just trying to help the industry- is not climbing much more dangerous than a bucket (or at least supposed to be)- just something to consider.


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## TDunk (Mar 17, 2008)

Not to sound like the "site" idiot here, but is there two diff. hourly rates then. A higher hourly rate for climbing then a lower one if a bucket truck is used. Maybe i just mis-read.


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## ckliff (Mar 17, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> That whole deal right there is kinda pitiful.



And you have what kind of a problem with someone starting up their own business?

I'd say the guys got guts!


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Mar 17, 2008)

Allows me more time for fishing & meeting new clients, while golfing. Having fun while working !!!!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## corndogg (Mar 17, 2008)

No problem with starting new business. I'm a new start up. I think everyone agrees that working too cheap will not help anybody including new guy.


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 17, 2008)

I think both sides have a valid point...BUT... I am a full time stump grinding contractor who lives in an area (NE Ohio) where things are REAL tuff and the haves and the have mores are on the rise and the "ain't got muchers" are the other class. The grinders in my area are 1/2 way keeping things priced ok. I refuse to work for a low wage w/ the headaches of being a biz owner. These "Wal-Mart" stump grinders and tree services will learn that w/ diesel @ 4.19 per/gal that being so low cost that they will never make it. I owned my own semi (truck/dump trailer) years ago and you realize that you bust your butt and have a ton of responsibility and bills and you haul for peanuts that the first 10k Cat engine rebuilt will take you out of the game. Same goes w/ this and every other biz..... YOU HAVE TO FIND YOUR BREAK EVEN POINT! I know guys who think they are HIGH ROLLERZ but all they have is cash flow. I learned through trucking that you can't drop your pantz to get work. If you have to your better off working for someone and let them worry about it. I'm in comp. w/ a guy south of me who's name of his biz says that he is LOW RENT...all he does is whore the market. If he had any sense he would work w/ the rest of us and keep his prices up.... but he s_cks! o well! good luck this season and hope to see most of us back next season!!!


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks to the guys who backed me up. I think the point that the rest were trying to drive home was not to try and sneak jobs away from the ones who depend on the work to feed their families when I have another source of income. I get that and have actually walked away from a job simply because I found out that my boss had also bid it. Don't bite the hand, ya know? I'm simply lookin' for an honest buck, same as everyone else but I do it a bit cheaper to help get more customers and get my name out there.


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 17, 2008)

I see where you're comin from man. It's tough out here and you gotta do what ya do. I wasn't slammin you.... I just learned a hard lesson w/ my semi... "RUN HARD AND SET YOUR $ ASIDE FOR BREAK DOWNS!!!just keep in mind all your bills, plan for big break downs on your on your equip. and advertise and keep bustin your rear. You guys are doin it right by paying for all your iron that does help out 4 sure. This economy s_cks but keep your prices in the middle and get after it.
Good luck to all of us... :chainsawguy:


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## corndogg (Mar 17, 2008)

We don't hate you Blake. Just honest opinions, that's what we all come here for. The more experienced ones say that even though costs have gone up in past years the average price of work has come down. It doesn't take a genius to smell something wrong with that. I have tried to better educate myself so I can offer a better product rather than lower prices. With rising costs, lowering my prices only means I have to work alot harder. I'm not interested in that. Tree work is hard enough work already and you can't do it forever . The years click by too fast.


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## masterarbor (Mar 17, 2008)

tomtrees58 said:


> can you sleep at night look be hind you at all times duck and move out of town tom trees


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## Gunsmoke (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtrees58 
can you sleep at night look be hind you at all times duck and move out of town tom trees 

I would have to say that this man is pretty well P_$$ed off! He's from NY as is Blakesmaster. This is gettin ugly I'm puttin on my footy PJ's and going to bed!:fart:


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## treemandan (Mar 17, 2008)

masterarbor said:


>



I don't understand that guy a lot of times either- Tom Trees that is.
I just got back from the firehouse where I was having a beer with my competition. He was hammered, I tend to stay sober.
Anyway we talked about an insurance job we both bid on : His= 1900.00 Mine 950.00. We both looked at each other in amazement. Turns out the homeowner kept the insurance money and had his kids clean it up.
I was pretty sure I could have been out of there in less than a day so here is the breakdown. I use a contactor with his own insurance, a buddy.
My buddy= 200
Gas= what the heck 50
I only really work in a ten mile radius( (job was 4 min from my shop) with dump sites close by and we needed the tree truck, chipper and the Dingo.There was no climbing just picking up and removing a fallen lombardy roughly 30' dia dbh. We would have quartered the logs( punky dead) and fed them to the chipper which might have been 1 load. So I figured my total operating cost for my end( which includes fed taxes) at 300.00.
So my net profit would have been 400 for a 3/4 day of not so difficult work.
I thought that was OK because around 400.00 is what I usually got when I subbed for other companies climbing crazy stuff with a crane all day long.
I don't know though, I am not in it to get rich. If I wanted to be rich I would not do this for a living.
The other guy would have been there jerking around with his overly dopeheaded guys who run themselves over with the truck they are driving. If you think that is not possible you are wrong.There would have been 3 of them and they would have... well you just use your imagination.
Open for comments but I think its reasonable.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 17, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I don't understand that guy a lot of times either- Tom Trees that is.
> I just got back from the firehouse where I was having a beer with my competition. He was hammered, I tend to stay sober.
> Anyway we talked about an insurance job we both bid on : His= 1900.00 Mine 950.00. We both looked at each other in amazement. Turns out the homeowner kept the insurance money and had his kids clean it up.
> I was pretty sure I could have been out of there in less than a day so here is the breakdown. I use a contactor with his own insurance, a buddy.
> ...


Sounds like you need to get an accountant!


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 18, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Then why would'nt you charge the same? Not critisizing because I did the same thing for years- just trying to help the industry- is not climbing much more dangerous than a bucket (or at least supposed to be)- just something to consider.





TDunk said:


> Not to sound like the "site" idiot here, but is there two diff. hourly rates then. A higher hourly rate for climbing then a lower one if a bucket truck is used. Maybe i just mis-read.



What I am referring to is a company that prices tree jobs to include a bucket truck where one cannot be used. There are two large tree services that just bought shiny new bucket trucks and need to charge hours on them to make the payments. I tried, by the example given, to show that I am not "low-balling" the prices, just making an honest bid to make an honest buck. The jobs I have been seeing pricing discrepancies on have been where the new bucket truck or new 20" chipper were not necessary, but were obviously included in the price.

When we figure a job, we determine what equipment we need and how many men and how many man-hours. I'm sure you all do that. We do not, when finished determining a price, go back and add in extra equipment (driving the price up) just to be able to bill for it. We routinely see these two new bucket trucks parked at a tree job, not being used.

Just as it is unethical to "low-ball" jobs and take them under a fair market value, it is also unethical to pad the price by adding in extraneous equipment costs, not used on those jobs, artificially driving up market prices to cover a bad equipment purchasing decision. We are making MUCH more now that these two bought their new rigs. They have created our market niche for us! On a side note, we send them quite a bit of work when a bucket truck is the best logistical method of removal or when a customer should be pruning rather than removing. They are good tree services (for our area). They both just have poor pricing practices now that they have the big new toys.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 18, 2008)

i just tend to ignore people threaten me brush dirt off shoulders blakesmaster *insert random smiley thinghy here*


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## TDunk (Mar 18, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> What I am referring to is a company that prices tree jobs to include a bucket truck where one cannot be used. There are two large tree services that just bought shiny new bucket trucks and need to charge hours on them to make the payments. I tried, by the example given, to show that I am not "low-balling" the prices, just making an honest bid to make an honest buck. The jobs I have been seeing pricing discrepancies on have been where the new bucket truck or new 20" chipper were not necessary, but were obviously included in the price.
> 
> When we figure a job, we determine what equipment we need and how many men and how many man-hours. I'm sure you all do that. We do not, when finished determining a price, go back and add in extra equipment (driving the price up) just to be able to bill for it. We routinely see these two new bucket trucks parked at a tree job, not being used.
> 
> Just as it is unethical to "low-ball" jobs and take them under a fair market value, it is also unethical to pad the price by adding in extraneous equipment costs, not used on those jobs, artificially driving up market prices to cover a bad equipment purchasing decision. We are making MUCH more now that these two bought their new rigs. They have created our market niche for us! On a side note, we send them quite a bit of work when a bucket truck is the best logistical method of removal or when a customer should be pruning rather than removing. They are good tree services (for our area). They both just have poor pricing practices now that they have the big new toys.



Yeah, i mis-read it. I'm fairly new to the tree buisness as well as Blakes. One thing i've notices is that MOST of the people one this thread are right in the same area. Ohio, Pa, and NY. Around here the economy isn't the greatest. To make a long story short, there were 2 1/2 tree co. in our small town ( Davey's, a small two man crew, and me doing it part time) Now there's 6 Co. 3 reputable and 3 hacks. Now two hack Co. are out so work is gettign better but i just hope there aren't any more to replace them.


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## lxt (Mar 18, 2008)

there is nothing wrong with competitive bidding, however I do agree with the one poster stating that keeping overhead down helps afford his customers a lower quote. I know that the bigger a company gets & the newer equip. they purchase seems to drive their prices up to compensate & offset the new debt.

I keep pluggin with some older but well maintained equipment which allows me to "trim" the price a little. I meant no offense by stating door knocking, super trimmer, etc.., etc.. 

Its just that in my area these are the types of tree companies springing up, the owner & his buddies work the drywall plant during the day & trim/remove....more like hack/destroy during the Eve. everybody has a day job doing something else far from related to tree work but they do tree work as a sideline.............cause uncle jim used to & showed him some things.....just enough to get him in trouble.

I bid a job yesterday 3-17, 5 cherry trees butchered by some local hack, flush cuts, stubs, tears......1/2 toppings while leaving the other 1/2 alone, absolutely wonderful hack craftsmanship!!! Owner wants truthful opinion on what to do now that the trees are severly dying back & falling apart, so I tell em & give em a nice price (its Easter) ......his reply: you gotta be kidding me, $700.00 to do that, thats robbery!!! whats his name only charged me $250.00!!

My Reply: Thats why your trees look like hat racks!!! if hes so good why didnt you call em back to fix what he did............cause he said he cant...their too big for em.

Some around here bid thinking if they make $100-$250 a day thats good money, where ya gonna go work & make that? Its the intangible`s they dont see or realize that are gonna hurt them, most have very little skill borderline "james the narcoleptic" syndrome!! but they`s a tree service!!



LXT..............................


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

Lets put it this way- the job is still worth what the job should be worth- if it were firewood, a cord would still be a cord, regardless of whether or not you had to split it with a maul or a processor. Around here its topped out at 200 a cord, the only thing that changes that is when some ignorant #@$$ sells it for 150 (and its probably crap/short), then it becomes worth 150 to the customer-and of course a cord IS a cord, and now it should be 150. Its just been de-valued by a firewood hack-and if it was still a good cord then why would you charge less even though you had to bust yer a$$ more with a maul?


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## TDunk (Mar 18, 2008)

Well here's a serious question now. When the TWP. had those 27 trees to take down etc..... i based my bid by the tree (how much i would charge per tree). But would i be better off charging by the day per-say. I figured 3 days to complete. $100 an hour X 3 days =$2400. But when i did my bid, i knew about 9 of the trees my groundies could take down no prob. while i was doing chipping at another location. So if i bid by the tree i'd make ALOT more money than charging by the day. Just wondering other people thoughts on how they bid these bigger jobs. I'm just wondering if maybe i screwed up on the bid doing it by the tree rather than by the day.


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Well here's a serious question now. When the TWP. had those 27 trees to take down etc..... i based my bid by the tree (how much i would charge per tree). But would i be better off charging by the day per-say. I figured 3 days to complete. $100 an hour X 3 days =$2400. But when i did my bid, i knew about 9 of the trees my groundies could take down no prob. while i was doing chipping at another location. So if i bid by the tree i'd make ALOT more money than charging by the day. Just wondering other people thoughts on how they bid these bigger jobs. I'm just wondering if maybe i screwed up on the bid doing it by the tree rather than by the day.



I bid based on an hourly rate and try to estimate how long it should take- unless its a really big takedown, then I just go with what I feel it should be based on expierience. If its a big takedown and you cant get a bucket or crane to it then I'm all over it because its my specialty, I go nice and high. Last summer I won a bid for a big a$$ed Red Oak, dead/no access, got it for 3600 because nobody wanted to touch it. Thats got alot to do with how I survive.


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## mckeetree (Mar 18, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Lets put it this way- the job is still worth what the job should be worth- if it were firewood, a cord would still be a cord, regardless of whether or not you had to split it with a maul or a processor. Around here its topped out at 200 a cord, the only thing that changes that is when some ignorant #@$$ sells it for 150 (and its probably crap/short), then it becomes worth 150 to the customer-and of course a cord IS a cord, and now it should be 150. Its just been de-valued by a firewood hack-and if it was still a good cord then why would you charge less even though you had to bust yer a$$ more with a maul?



You are right. The job is worth what it is worth. Bucket truck or no bucket truck. Saying the job should pay less because you did not use a bucket truck is like saying it's worth less because you are going to do it in green socks. Ridiculous.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 18, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> You are right. The job is worth what it is worth. Bucket truck or no bucket truck. Saying the job should pay less because you did not use a bucket truck is like saying it's worth less because you are going to do it in green socks. Ridiculous.



You guys are COMPLETELY missing the point! These two local services are building in the cost of the bucket truck even when they CAN'T use it! You aren't reading the post as written! Go back and re-read.

I, like TreeMDS, "specialize" in big difficult removals where climbing and rigging experience are of great value. I do NOT low-ball, yet I still beat out these two large local tree services a lot simply because I don't charge for a bucket truck that I'm not going to use. I charge a high enough rate that I lose jobs to the "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service" guys a lot. All I have been trying to point out is that there are "underbids" and there are "lowballs". Underbids happen. Lowballs are a PITA.


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## masterarbor (Mar 18, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> You guys are COMPLETELY missing the point! These two local services are building in the cost of the bucket truck even when they CAN'T use it! You aren't reading the post as written! Go back and re-read.
> 
> yeah, he's just saying that they have to bill in the overhead, which is a good point. but why should you charge less just because it costs less for you to operate. at the end of the day, it is the operator's expertise that you bill for not his big shiny equipment. i would never think to myself, "i can't wait to get all my equipment paid for so i can start charging less."


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

Just got back from looking at a nice job, alot of "arbor-snipping", as I like to call it, some bucket trimming, small stuff, little dead, some limbs, a hemlock hedge that needs some topping with an orchard ladder, pruning numerous small trees for structure etc., there is also a large maple( 90' ) that could use some minor pruning and maybe a cable. I figured about a day and a half. I gave him a price based on my hourly rate, he seemed fine with it and stated that I should give him a few days- there are also some bigger trees he is debating on taking down, he will talk over with the wife-I come reffered from a prominate local lawn jockey and the house is worth millions. He is changing tree guys from his old one- my ex boss from 13 years ago who's shop is next door to mine-thats the second big dollar est. in less than a week that used to be his clients. Ya gotta love it, thats what happens when you get too comforatable and send out your crackheads to do all yer work. I did knock off 300 for light duty/high vis., but I will still be getting more than 150 per hour with about half of the job handsaw/snips.-and I get to stick it to the old boss  Gotta love it. Handsnips pay well on occaision. Here is a situation where you get paid for yer knowledge/expierience, do you think I should have bid it at 75 per hour because there isnt much bucket work???


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 18, 2008)

Apparently, I'm just a little more tedious with my bidding than some of you. I figure total cost to do a job... MY cost... then figure how much I want to pocket... add those together and you get a total bid price. It's really a simple process. If a job cannot be reached by a bucket truck and it takes a climber (at $100 / hr) for 4 hours, 2 groundies (at $75 / hr each) for 6 hours, and a chipper (at $75 / hr) for 4 hours, then my total COST is $1,600. If I determine that I want to poket a 50% margin on top of that, then I add $800 and my bid is $2,400. *Notice - the job does not require a bucket, why would I charge for it?* I'm not diminishing the value of the work at all. I am only charging a fair price (for me and for the customer) for a definable amount of work. _By the way, the rates quoted above are for illustration only so we can all do the simple math in our heads._

I applaud you guys for being able to sleep at night after charging a homeowner for work not done or equipment not needed. However, my business ethics prevent me from feeling good about *CHEATING* the client. In the mean time, while I continue to learn the "proper" business model from you guys, I'll continue to charge for what I actually do and for the equipment that is actually necessary.


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Apparently, I'm just a little more tedious with my bidding than some of you. I figure total cost to do a job... MY cost... then figure how much I want to pocket... add those together and you get a total bid price. It's really a simple process. If a job cannot be reached by a bucket truck and it takes a climber (at $100 / hr) for 4 hours, 2 groundies (at $75 / hr each) for 6 hours, and a chipper (at $75 / hr) for 4 hours, then my total COST is $1,600. If I determine that I want to poket a 50% margin on top of that, then I add $800 and my bid is $2,400. *Notice - the job does not require a bucket, why would I charge for it?* I'm not diminishing the value of the work at all. I am only charging a fair price (for me and for the customer) for a definable amount of work. _By the way, the rates quoted above are for illustration only so we can all do the simple math in our heads._
> 
> I applaud you guys for being able to sleep at night after charging a homeowner for work not done or equipment not needed. However, my business ethics prevent me from feeling good about *CHEATING* the client. In the mean time, while I continue to learn the "proper" business model from you guys, I'll continue to charge for what I actually do and for the equipment that is actually necessary.


I'd say at 3200 a day you are allready charging more than enough.  Sorry, I did'nt read all the way through-2400 for 4 hours ? is that possible ? not that I've never heard of it but...jeez, damn.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 18, 2008)

4 hours of climber, 4 hours of chipper, 12 total hours of groundies.

I don't price jobs "by the day". All jobs are different. Some can be done solo while others require a crew and a fleet of support equipment. Again, my only reason for going through all this is to explain that there is "underbidding" (a fair and competitive process) and there is "lowballing" (an aggressive tactic that, as you all have noted, cheapens the market). I practice "underbidding" any time the competition practices "overbidding".

"Part time Super Trimmer" = picking the jobs I WANT to do when I WANT to do them.


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> 4 hours of climber, 4 hours of chipper, 12 total hours of groundies.
> 
> "Part time Super Trimmer" = picking the jobs I WANT to do when I WANT to do them.



No wonder you are only part time, I would think it would be real hard to stay busy at that rate. Maybe I should become a part time super trimmer


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## lxt (Mar 18, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> No wonder you are only part time, I would think it would be real hard to stay busy at that rate. Maybe I should become a part time super trimmer




Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "*SUPER TRIMMER"*



LXT...............


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "*SUPER TRIMMER"*
> 
> 
> 
> LXT...............


LOL. LXT, that was a really friggin good one.


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## mckeetree (Mar 18, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "*SUPER TRIMMER"*
> 
> 
> 
> LXT...............



That's rich.


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## treemandan (Mar 18, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Sounds like you need to get an accountant!



Why, so he can tell me what? Sure, what I posted is not exact but a rough idea. I can't complain to net 300 to 400 on a easy 6 hour job. That is what goes in my personal account, pretty sure of it.
I bid 2500 for a little bit of a challenge gum and the lady told me she got a quote for 1100. She is going to send me the other guys quote so I can look it over. I asked her if it included the stump and she said yes. I have been in this position before and sometimes when I see the other quote it is not for all the bells and whistles, sometimes it is. Yes, we are talking about a real tree service. I feel sorry for the employees of that company. 
To be honest, all my jobs are underbid, and so are yours. Know what I mean?
The only problem I have paying all my expenses and making money is the slow season, even then it is not much of a problem.


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## treemandan (Mar 18, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Why, so he can tell me what? Sure, what I posted is not exact but a rough idea. I can't complain to net 300 to 400 on a easy 6 hour job. That is what goes in my personal account, pretty sure of it.
> I bid 2500 for a little bit of a challenge gum and the lady told me she got a quote for 1100. She is going to send me the other guys quote so I can look it over. I asked her if it included the stump and she said yes. I have been in this position before and sometimes when I see the other quote it is not for all the bells and whistles, sometimes it is. Yes, we are talking about a real tree service. I feel sorry for the employees of that company.
> To be honest, all my jobs are underbid, and so are yours. Know what I mean?
> The only problem I have paying all my expenses and making money is the slow season, even then it is not much of a problem.



I don't think I would drive very far for that kind of money though. And it stings to lose a job to those with bigger crews and new shiny and huge equipment. I rarely burn 50 bucks a day in fuel.


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## TDunk (Mar 18, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "*SUPER TRIMMER"*
> 
> 
> 
> LXT...............



HA HA HA. well said. I like the term "Super Trimmer". It has a ring to it.


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## lxt (Mar 18, 2008)

Treemandan, thats what these Evening warriors dont realize, when you go full legit......you better bank for the slow times!!!


LXT..............


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 18, 2008)

lxt said:


> Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "*SUPER TRIMMER"*



Does "Architect" count? Actually, while I feel like I am well compensated for my architectural work, I feel like my ability to pick and choose which tree jobs I do is even better. I don't "Super Trim" to lowball the honest tree guys. In fact, I send them PLENTY of work that I don't want to do. But... I get to climb and stay "in practice" on my own terms.

I've enjoyed the playful banter here, but it's time to stop sticking fingers in each other's eyes. Have fun guys.


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Does "Architect" count? Actually, while I feel like I am well compensated for my architectural work, I feel like my ability to pick and choose which tree jobs I do is even better. I don't "Super Trim" to lowball the honest tree guys. In fact, I send them PLENTY of work that I don't want to do. But... I get to climb and stay "in practice" on my own terms.
> 
> I've enjoyed the playful banter here, but it's time to stop sticking fingers in each other's eyes. Have fun guys.



Mild mannered architect Peter Brady by day, "SUPER TRIMMER" at night :greenchainsaw:


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## TDunk (Mar 18, 2008)

lxt said:


> Treemandan, thats what these Evening warriors dont realize, when you go full legit......you better bank for the slow times!!!
> 
> 
> LXT..............



That's why i'm not full time yet. That's the main benefit of being in a family owned buisness (my father has owned his own garage since '98) It seems to work out that when we get slow at the garage i have a bunch of tree work lined up to get busy on. So rather than another employee working half days and loosing money, i'll take off and do my trees so he can keep a full paycheck. That way the garage (my dad) isn't loosing money by halving us stand around doing nothing all day, and everyone is still getting full pay. Plus i'm making more money doing the tree work and it's always nice to have a break in the routine.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 18, 2008)

Nah... I'm all but "mild mannered" in my Monday - Thursday "Liability Protection"role and don't climb at night except for fun (recreational) or critical storm damage work. Friday - Sunday is my part-time-monkey "Super Trimmer" time.


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## teamtree (Mar 18, 2008)

*state bid*

bid for the state went out last month.....

385 trees/dropped in the right of way/no clean up (half in the 4-8" range) (3 in the 21"-48" range) (everything else in the 9-20" range)

state is doing traffic control
bridge contractor is doing clean up
all trees have to be cut by April 1



results: 19K, 12K, 10K, 5K & 3K

is someone underbidding or just extremely efficient.


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## Bermie (Mar 18, 2008)

Keeping costs down is not 'underbidding' or 'lowballing' it is an accurate reflection of what it will cost to do the work based on the time, manpower and equipment needed! How you set up your business depends on many different factors, some unique to certain areas.

My base rate is $800 per day for me and a groundie. I go from there adding on the extras as needed.
I have all the necessary equipment for climbing, rigging and groundwork...
I have no large equipment of my own, I do not use it often enough to justify the initial outlay or ongoing costs, so therefore I do not have the overheads and issues with buying, maintaining and paying off equipment I do not use every week. So I do not have to build it into any cost of my doing business.

When I need large equipment I call my collegues who have it...bucket truck, dump truck, crane truck, chipper...Their rates are then added into my estimates and off we go.

The tree work I use them for is a fraction of their day to day business, but nice for them to fill in time slots, they use me for climbing/tree work that they get asked to do...win/win!

I am as qualified and professional as my competition, but I do not carry the equipment overheads...so in bid situations I can end up cheaper, sometimes I don't... I charge the same rate for a climber that they do...and it doesn't matter if thats in a bucket or on a rope, but the hire of the bucket will add to the overall cost...


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## treemandan (Mar 18, 2008)

Allow me to speculate even more as a guy who has been around and seen what is out there.
The whole deal is that no matter what you do for a living you had better be able to compete in your market. If that is not obvious then you are blind.
Yes, when a guy who just is a part time warrior can do the job for less or a real tree service just sucks it looks bad for us. I say us but I don't know if that is true. Why? Because we are not all on the same level, if we were we would not be talking about this. 
It is not uncommon for a real tree service owner to throw a low price to keep the guys and his company working. Also he might add something like" why did it take you so long? I didn't put that much on it." It is a struggle for all.
Some have said that 50% off all people are looking for the lowest price. I think that that percentage is higher more like 99.9%, especially when it comes to a new customer or for a highly competive market.
If you go around telling people that you cost more because you are better I have to say" better than what and who?" . Don't get me wrong I understand what a good tree service should be making a day but that is our problem; ain't it?
As far as what a good service should be making and what they usually do is this- for a 3 guys and the truck and chipper 1400.00 to 1700.00. If I based my rate on what I really should be making it would be around a million dollars a day, no joke. Anyone who works in this field as an employee at a profficient level doing actuall tree work should be making 40 to 60 G a year. Even the groundies. Now tell me I am wrong. Oh yeah, don't forget the bennies, A good amount of my bids are way to high but I am trying to set the standard while keeping my calender full AND doing a job cheap for someone who has little money and resource(can't help it, I'm a sucker).
Now what is happening today is that all the employees of older established companies are quitting to start thier own gigs. Why? I think because of all the crap they put up with for 30 g a year. Some do well but fall into the same traps as thier hated ex employer, others have to underbid their ex to get the job, while others are just hacks.
Also, some people hear that there is good money in tree work and go for the motherload only to find, well, the truth.
This is never going to stop, well it will but underbidding tree work is going to be last thing on our minds when it does.
Now sometimes "we" underbid each other at the professional level and that is healthy, so they say, but it is only by a 100 bucks or so. 100 bucks is a 100 bucks, find a guy who says different. Big differences in bids from real services is a fluke but does happen. Got to go, kids are hollering


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## TDunk (Mar 18, 2008)

teamtree said:


> bid for the state went out last month.....
> 
> 385 trees/dropped in the right of way/no clean up (half in the 4-8" range) (3 in the 21"-48" range) (everything else in the 9-20" range)
> 
> ...


:jawdrop:


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## TDunk (Mar 18, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Allow me to speculate even more as a guy who has been around and seen what is out there.
> The whole deal is that no matter what you do for a living you had better be able to compete in your market. If that is not obvious then you are blind.
> Yes, when a guy who just is a part time warrior can do the job for less or a real tree service just sucks it looks bad for us. I say us but I don't know if that is true. Why? Because we are not all on the same level, if we were we would not be talking about this.
> It is not uncommon for a real tree service owner to throw a low price to keep the guys and his company working. Also he might add something like" why did it take you so long? I didn't put that much on it." It is a struggle for all.
> ...



Excellent post i must say. When i put my bids up against other "reputable" company's, they are usually within a 10% to 20% (MAX) difference. Sometimes i'm the highest, sometimes the lowest, but were all in the same ballpark. I have no prob. loosing a bid to another company if the diff. is only 10%-20%. It's when i loose a bid to someone with a 50%-60% diff. in price. That's what erks me. I don't have near the overhead that alot of company's do. I have a dump truck, chipper,rope,climbing gear etc. and just bought a bucket truck. Granted, i don't really NEAD a bucket truck, but it was a SMOKIN deal and there are times when i could do the work faster/safer. Plus, i'm the only Co. in the area right now with an operating bucket truck. What i'm getting at is that even though i'm a "super Trimmer"/weekend worrior i have a fair amount of overhead to deal with. So the assumption that part-timers underbid/lowball isn't ALWAYS correct. But alot of times it is true.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2008)

*My two cents worth*

I don't really find that the part time guys are much competition. They get the cheap work, and that leaves the better paying jobs that require insurance, worker's comp, etc for companies like mine. 

When a customer asks me to lower my bid to meet another's quote, I explain to them that I never lower a bid. "If I lower my price, then I am admitting that I was willing to take more than I should for the job. I gave a good quote to begin with, and I am sticking to it."

If a customer just wants to talk me down, than I can agree to do that: "What part of a good job do you want me to leave out?" Sometimes, it actually works out with a lower price, and less work done!


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## tree MDS (Mar 18, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Excellent post i must say. When i put my bids up against other "reputable" company's, they are usually within a 10% to 20% (MAX) difference. Sometimes i'm the highest, sometimes the lowest, but were all in the same ballpark. I have no prob. loosing a bid to another company if the diff. is only 10%-20%. It's when i loose a bid to someone with a 50%-60% diff. in price. That's what erks me. I don't have near the overhead that alot of company's do. I have a dump truck, chipper,rope,climbing gear etc. and just bought a bucket truck. Granted, i don't really NEAD a bucket truck, but it was a SMOKIN deal and there are times when i could do the work faster/safer. Plus, i'm the only Co. in the area right now with an operating bucket truck.  What i'm getting at is that even though i'm a "super Trimmer"/weekend worrior i have a fair amount of overhead to deal with. So the assumption that part-timers underbid/lowball isn't ALWAYS correct. But alot of times it is true.


Sounds like you are bidding properly to me, good luck


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## kennertree (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't worry too much about getting underbid. When I go look at a tree for a customer I get the objectives and try to do what is best for the tree while meeting their needs. When they tell me so and so was cheaper, why are you that much higher? I tell them so and so is not giving a bid for the same services I'm doing. They are giving a bid to lion's tail your tree or a pruning practice that is not benificial to them or their tree. They usually see the difference.


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## treemandan (Mar 18, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I don't really find that the part time guys are much competition. They get the cheap work, and that leaves the better paying jobs that require insurance, worker's comp, etc for companies like mine.
> 
> When a customer asks me to lower my bid to meet another's quote, I explain to them that I never lower a bid. "If I lower my price, then I am admitting that I was willing to take more than I should for the job. I gave a good quote to begin with, and I am sticking to it."
> 
> If a customer just wants to talk me down, than I can agree to do that: "What part of a good job do you want me to leave out?" Sometimes, it actually works out with a lower price, and less work done!



Sometimes those part time guys will be your comp and you can refer to the " how did you all start ?" thread.

But , Yes, you are on target, if you are doing it right. 
Why is my price more you say? I can leave the topsoil to fill the holes at the shop. Next thing you know they got the other guy to bring it for less.


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 18, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I don't really find that the part time guys are much competition. They get the cheap work, and that leaves the better paying jobs that require insurance, worker's comp, etc for companies like mine.
> 
> When a customer asks me to lower my bid to meet another's quote, I explain to them that I never lower a bid. "If I lower my price, then I am admitting that I was willing to take more than I should for the job. I gave a good quote to begin with, and I am sticking to it."
> 
> If a customer just wants to talk me down, than I can agree to do that: "What part of a good job do you want me to leave out?" Sometimes, it actually works out with a lower price, and less work done!



I hear you there! Gotta love dropping the tree and walking with a nice fee and none of the a$$breaking cleanup! Almost as good is that call a few weeks later..." We didnt realize you would leave us with this much work. Can you come back out to clean up the rest? His brother said he would take all the stuff out there but after he got all the big pieces( think: firewood vulture) he hasn't been back. An estimate? We already paid you to cut the tree down and there isn't that much left just a (jumbled) pile of branches ( tossed down the ravine in the back and complained about by the owner of that property). "


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 18, 2008)

Oh Yeah! I forgot the most obvious thing we have not touched on in this thread that much: Salesmanship
How well do you sell your customer on the services you provide? How good are you at reading your customers? Their reactions, questions, and the like? Do you just leave a quote in the mailbox and go or do you try to establish a rapport?

On a related note: How many of you are growing your business or keeping it only as a part time tree monkey super weekend/evening funtime trimmer venture?


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 18, 2008)

Slvrmple72 said:


> I hear you there! Gotta love dropping the tree and walking with a nice fee and none of the a$$breaking cleanup!



I love doing no-hauls because it's all technical, fun, use my brain stuff. No drag-drag carry-carry. My only issue is that the neighbors see a messy yard and think, "I'm not gonna call that guy. Look at the mess!" *sigh*


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## treemandan (Mar 18, 2008)

Slvrmple72 said:


> Oh Yeah! I forgot the most obvious thing we have not touched on in this thread that much: Salesmanship
> How well do you sell your customer on the services you provide? How good are you at reading your customers? Their reactions, questions, and the like? Do you just leave a quote in the mailbox and go or do you try to establish a rapport?
> 
> On a related note: How many of you are growing your business or keeping it only as a part time tree monkey super weekend/evening funtime trimmer venture?



I mentioned something but it is obvious that we are professional . And sometimes they clean it up very nicely themselves which is why I make sure I can do it the way they want, if what they want is not to outlandish. I call it the hack and slash service. It is actually possible for a mortal( not a tree guy) to use a saw and load a truck and take it away, not common, but possible.
I have a few estimates tomorrow, one of which will entail running a bush mower through some over grown brambles, one is to remove all the overgrown trees and shrubs on the property and one is pruning some topiaries. Do you think the first 2 people are going to care if I am 'arborist of the year'. I don't think so either. 
I know what I can get away with so I will try my best to give a price that will make them say do it. Of course I can't pay them to work for them but...


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## treemandan (Mar 18, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I love doing no-hauls because it's all technical, fun, use my brain stuff. No drag-drag carry-carry. My only issue is that the neighbors see a messy yard and think, "I'm not gonna call that guy. Look at the mess!" *sigh*



I used to pick up little cash jobs with an ad in the penny pincher that said " have saw will travel". You bet I was seeking a certain,uhm, clientel. I also have a half page in color in the books.


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## treeclimber jul (Mar 19, 2008)

Around where I live, there are a LOT of hacks cut everything off and leave stubs. Also they show up drunk sometimes I am trying to build customer relations and a name of quality, word of mouth is the way to go I think. 

Looking professional is very important as well


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

treeclimber jul said:


> Around where I live, there are a LOT of hacks cut everything off and leave stubs. Also they show up drunk sometimes I am trying to build customer relations and a name of quality, word of mouth is the way to go I think.
> 
> Looking professional is very important as well



Important to good clients yes, but I have seen even the best clients in these economic times, searching for cheap or illegal labor!


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

treeclimber jul said:


> Around where I live, there are a LOT of hacks cut everything off and leave stubs. Also they show up drunk sometimes I am trying to build customer relations and a name of quality, word of mouth is the way to go I think.
> 
> Looking professional is very important as well



Word of mouth is the best seller. An add in the local paper, signs on the side of the truck, maybe even a small billboard. But the one thing that makes a company look more proffesional/advertises is shirts with your name/logo on it. I know it sounds corny but it's true. On thing that Slvrmple72 said that makes a good point is salesmanship. Reading the HO's facial expressions and how they act. When you go to give an estimate, your litterally try to sell them your services and convince them what is the right way to do the job, and what you can offer them over anybody else.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Important to good clients yes, but I have seen even the best clients in these economic times, searching for cheap or illegal labor!



YES INDEED!!! this is kinda what im talking about when I say "super trimmer" or "weekend warrior" Its one thing if you have had a type of formal training or apprenticed with a skilled tree trimmer/company.

But if you`re the guy working at lowes home/garden section handing out make shift biz cards(which entail more than tree work) & never done anything but work off a ladder then load your s-10 up with the brush along with the lawn mower trailer you bought from your other employer then you`re a pile of "dung"

In my area I honestly cant stand & wont help these kinda services at all, its bad enough every lawn service/landscaper thinks just because he works outside & does ornamental trimming he can do the larger trees (same technique just bigger tree)................Wrong Poncho!! uhh, you need a whole different assortment of gear!!!! the stihl hedge trimmers arent gonna work up there!!

Not to mention.....how many newbies come here asking for climbing gear advice & just how to do it questions? If they want to start a biz work for someone else first, find out whats involved......the way most of us have done it!!!!! these are the startup little hack biz`s we all despise!!

so if you`re an architect, mechanic, baker or candlestick maker & have never had formal training in this field (videos dont count ) & you`re gonna start yer own tree cuddin outfit.......you will be considered a HACK & due to the fact you have no idea how to trim/remove you also have no idea how to bid..........and therefore you are an *under bidding hack*!!!!

I know guys who did tree work for 5-10yrs & went on to other jobs, these guys are just doing it to make up the difference in wages....this I understand!, but someone just diving into the tree biz with no idea of what is what............these are the idiots ruining the trade for the rest of us!!


LXT................


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

TDunk said:


> But the one thing that makes a company look more proffesional/advertises is shirts with your name/logo on it. I know it sounds corny but it's true.



I don't think it's corny at all! We had our shirts made last fall and I wear one as often as I can. It's a matter of pride having my company's name on the shirt instead of my boss's. Plus, our design is effin awesome! Not to mention the inquisitions I get from random people. I've turned those conversations into jobs.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't think it's corny at all! We had our shirts made last fall and I wear one as often as I can. It's a matter of pride having my company's name on the shirt instead of my boss's. Plus, our design is effin awesome! Not to mention the inquisitions I get from random people. I've turned those conversations into jobs.



Not the big truck syndrome, but my design is awesome-r


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Not the big truck syndrome, but my design is awesome-r



Yay! A pi**ing contest! Why can't this rain just stop?


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yay! A pi**ing contest! Why can't this rain just stop?



Aughhh like, u did see the smiley face eh!


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm right now fighting usage of the word awesomest! On a side note, I just learned that my new apartment is 2 blocks from a lineman's supply. If I can't make money today, I'm gotta spend it, eh? This could be bad.


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'm right now fighting usage of the word awesomest! On a side note, I just learned that my new apartment is 2 blocks from a lineman's supply. If I can't make money today, I'm gotta spend it, eh? This could be bad.



It never hurts to look. It's like when you go in TSC. You don't nead anything when you go in, but you always end up buying something.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanks, my bank account hates you.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

Don't buy it all. Leave some for us "Under Bidding Hacks" so that we can look like we know what we're doing....


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

I thought that's what I was?!?!!?! Not to mention a part time "Super-Trimmer"!


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

obsessive compulsive buying disorder! It is vewy contagious :hmm3grin2orange:


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I thought that's what I was?!?!!?! Not to mention a part time "Super-Trimmer"!



Hey!!! We can franchise this idea! I can see it now: Part-Time SuperTrimmers, a Division of Under Bidding Hacks, Inc.

Our marketing slogan could be: "We'll beat any price - even if we have to pay YOU to do your work!"


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Hey!!! We can franchise this idea! I can see it now: Part-Time SuperTrimmers, a Division of Under Bidding Hacks, Inc.
> 
> Our marketing slogan could be: "We'll beat any price - even if we have to pay YOU to do your work!"



We could make millions !!!!!!!!!!!!!........................... of other p!ssed off tree Co.s


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

How about mob boss tree hacks knocking off the competition

So ya wanna be good or ya wanna be smaat eh:hmm3grin2orange:


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

I think this ones dying. Hey Rope, with the winch on yer bucket, if you get stuck and need to attach to a tree to pull yourself out, what can you use that wont destroy the cambium and that will be strong enough to pull out a 31000 GVWR truck?


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## masterarbor (Mar 19, 2008)

they have huge rigging straps that you can buy (not cheap) or i wonder if chain with a whole lot of burlap would work? i might still bruise the cambium.


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## teamtree (Mar 19, 2008)

Went out to a customer's house the other day to remove a large broken limb from their shed. Was talking with the customer and started to talk about the trees removed at the neighboring property. I gave a bid of about $1,800. I asked if he knew who did the work. He laughed and said I was not even close to the low bid. He said a hispanic (not sure if this matters but I give the info anyway) came out with his son (8th grade) and some of his son's buddies and did the job for about $600. 

Now I am ok with someone underbidding becuase they want the work but to do it and put children at risk???


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

teamtree said:


> Went out to a customer's house the other day to remove a large broken limb from their shed. Was talking with the customer and started to talk about the trees removed at the neighboring property. I gave a bid of about $1,800. I asked if he knew who did the work. He laughed and said I was not even close to the low bid. He said a hispanic (not sure if this matters but I give the info anyway) came out with his son (8th grade) and some of his son's buddies and did the job for about $600.
> 
> Now I am ok with someone underbidding becuase they want the work but to do it and put children at risk???



Ahh, startin em young is allright-see, habla el-drago brush-o.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey now... That's even under bidding "The Super Trimmers"!!!


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Hey now... That's even under bidding "The Super Trimmers"!!!



Aint you supposed to be workin Brady?  Lol, just kidding.


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey, nobody can under bid this band of misfits.


fecrousejr said:


> Part-Time SuperTrimmers, a Division of Under Bidding Hacks, Inc.


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> I think this ones dying. Hey Rope, with the winch on yer bucket, if you get stuck and need to attach to a tree to pull yourself out, what can you use that wont destroy the cambium and that will be strong enough to pull out a 31000 GVWR truck?



Are you talking about the JIB winch or a winch mounted to the bucket truck itself?


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Are you talking about the JIB winch or a winch mounted to the bucket truck itself?



Truck mounted, I've got an Altec LR 3 rear mount on a 97 c-7500 with Marmon Herrington all wheel drive conversion, it has front and rear pto winches. I cant figure what you could hook it to if you were burried that it would'nt destroy. Big a$$ed truck.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Hey!!! We can franchise this idea! I can see it now: Part-Time SuperTrimmers, a Division of Under Bidding Hacks, Inc.
> 
> Our marketing slogan could be: "We'll beat any price - even if we have to pay YOU to do your work!"




Or you could bring out the cashiers from Wal-Mart with their smiley face blue smocks..........Hell!! have em bring their kids, toddlers on up!!! use the work site for a kids climb.........get out there Bobby!!! yep...no!! the real saw put your pacifier away!!! (yelled out by super trimmer) as Bobby starts to the low bidding hack sends up his teenage son with the mighty poulan wild thing!! go....faster, faster, yep! just cut it off.......watch the house!!

As the day closes "super trimmer" & "low bid hack" & company managed to stub up the tree, rip off a gutter & paid the HO only $50.00.......what a good day!!!

While driving down the road, Super trimmer tells low bid hack when I get another week or two under my belt.....those real legit tree companies are gonna feel the pain.....I just gotta tell my Day job boss at the sewage plant when that day comes he be gettin my notice!!! 

This story will be handed down to all aspiring to be great, it shall be carved in every stone & oblisque......told for many years _So let it be said, So let it be written!!_.

Now in the not so distant future Bobby is all grown up!! he works by day at the Family dollar store & by night................Yep!! Super Trimmer with his trusty sidekick Low ball Hack!! 

The saga continues!!

LXT...............LMFAO


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Aint you supposed to be workin Brady?  Lol, just kidding.



Work... schmirk.... I'm just sitting here dreaming up new ways to P1SS off the "real" tree services some more!


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> The saga continues!!
> 
> LXT...............LMFAO



LXT - you are starting to show one of the downsides of being a "full time pro"! You've OBVIOUSLY inhaled too many 2 cycle fumes!


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> LXT - you are starting to show one of the downsides of being a "full time pro"! You've OBVIOUSLY inhaled too many 2 cycle fumes!



Awe c`mon  so which are you? "Super trimmer" or "Low ball Hack" LOL.

you can relate to that smiley face & blue smock uhh? Ive probably got socks with more tree exp. than you have....LMFAO

So what was it with my story that I got wrong concerning you & Blake?


LXT.............


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

What I really like is the Im a Architectural project manager with 30yrs doing tree removals!!! MMmmmm so were did you get your hands on training? (tree work that is).


LXT...........


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## oldirty (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> Ive probably got socks with more tree exp. than you have....LMFAO
> 
> 
> 
> LXT.............






LOL bud. good one.


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> I'm a "part time Super Trimmer" also. But, I have to clarify that. We ONLY do removals. I respect the profession too much to try to present myself as the ultimate answer to all tree health issues. I would rather do what we do best and enjoy it, than to try to do "anything for a buck" just to get by. We started doing removals for friends and family only. We (2 of the 3 partners) heat with wood and saw it as a source. That was 30 years ago. Our team has worked well together, with two of us experienced (30 years and 20 years) climbers and all three of us experienced in proper SAFE saw use and experienced in rigging. We do not intentionally under bid others, however sometimes our price just happens to be lower. We would rather do a few great jobs at a decent pay level than to work our tails off for next to nothing.


Traslation= 30 years of weekend warrior'n it up/wood pig+low balling hack.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> Work... schmirk.... I'm just sitting here dreaming up new ways to P1SS off the "real" tree services some more!



*P1ssed off*
Nah, I find you funny, you work 4 outta 7 days doing your day job which involves, planning, arbitrating, construction site Mgt, etc... & then you wanna bust me & others [email protected] for being legit full time tree services...LOL

 I was wrong you`re neither a "super trimmer" or "Low ball Hack" your Mike Brady with a chainsaw & Alice as a groundman!! yepper a real Pro, tell Marsha I said Hi..........LMFAO my story about Bobby was right on!!


LXT..................


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> *P1ssed off*
> Nah, I find you funny, you work 4 outta 7 days doing your day job which involves, planning, arbitrating, construction site Mgt, etc... & then you wanna bust me & others [email protected] for being legit full time tree services...LOL
> 
> I was wrong you`re neither a "super trimmer" or "Low ball Hack" your Mike Brady with a chainsaw & Alice as a groundman!! yepper a real Pro, tell Marsha I said Hi..........LMFAO my story about Bobby was right on!!
> ...


Ahhh, the visuals,lol (cough,cough).


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> What I really like is the Im a Architectural project manager with 30yrs doing tree removals!!! MMmmmm so were did you get your hands on training? (tree work that is).
> 
> 
> LXT...........



10 years of tree work prior to deciding to make some money... Was working for someone else and not in a position to start my own tree service, so I went for Door #2 - Architecture. It pays the bills and keeps me and the kids "secure" while allowing me time and opportunity to still spend time in the trees (my real passion). While I may not be the Tree God that you, and several others here, are, I get a lot of time in tough removal jobs. My past work has created a good "word of mouth" advertising package for me. While you guys are quoting old posts, take note of the part wher I can pick and choose. Trust me, there are many days I'd rather be in your shoes than doing the desk jockey routine 4 days a week!


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## HolmenTree (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm a small tree service as you can see by my signature below. Been in business full time going on my 9th year. I love working for myself. I employ only one groundie who has been with me 3 years now. We only specialize in tree and stump removal ,with pruning only a third of the business. Every year sales are increasing by 10 %+. And I love this business because if the customer is willing to spend money on a tree he usually has money and is going to pay you.I only had one customer in 8 years who didn't pay and that was only $200. Look at all the retail business guys who go broke from non paying customers. I think us tree guys have a good thing going here.

No I don't want to get any bigger, the only addition I might do is buy the new Vermeer mini skid 400tx with a grapple and store it along side the chipper and put the 252 grinder in the back of the pickup. I don't mind the part time hacks they actually make me look more professional . Thats where the money is those high skilled pruning and removal jobs. There was one part time hack here who advertised in his newspaper ads $60 hr. for tree removal with his old beat up bucket trucket. Wasn't long his tired old truck mysteriously burnt up and I last heard his wife left him. Thems the breaks.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> *P1ssed off*
> Nah, I find you funny, you work 4 outta 7 days doing your day job which involves, planning, arbitrating, construction site Mgt, etc... & then you wanna bust me & others [email protected] for being legit full time tree services...LOL
> 
> I was wrong you`re neither a "super trimmer" or "Low ball Hack" your Mike Brady with a chainsaw & Alice as a groundman!! yepper a real Pro, tell Marsha I said Hi..........LMFAO my story about Bobby was right on!!
> ...



For the record, Mr High and Mighty, the ball busting has come from you. I have been trying to point out a difference between "under bidding" and "low balling". If you had sniffed less 2 cycle, you would be able to retain that (repeated) part of my posts. (Stating it again...) The situation here in NC is that there is a problem with "real" tree services OVER bidding jobs to cover their own poor business decissions to take on more debt than they can handle.

My guess is Alice would have too much mouth to work as a groundsman for you, since you have to be right and have the last dig.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> 10 years of tree work prior to deciding to make some money... Was working for someone else and not in a position to start my own tree service, so I went for Door #2 - Architecture.




Now its 10 years a far cry from 30, If I counted going out with dad....hell Id have a ton more time to add to my bio. too.

you chose door #2 because it paid the bills......then stick with that nothing wrong with being an architect (sounds important) you gave up on tree work & now find the need to infiltrate the field pickin & choosing (no doubt easy stuff) while leaving others & myself with all the nice ones!!! cause I highly doubt you & your boys are doing many big ones with your 3 days of tree time.

Look, I love my job & my biz, I have mustered through the good & bad times... thats dedication, perserverance & belief that I can make it, Now I gotta compete with new startups & tree dropouts......master one trade & leave the others to those who love & wish to master them!! 

If architect was your choice to pay the bills & it provides well for you, why the need to do something you gave up on? It didnt make you money then....trust me it wont make you money now, too many like you doing the same thing. jmho

LXT............


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Truck mounted, I've got an Altec LR 3 rear mount on a 97 c-7500 with Marmon Herrington all wheel drive conversion, it has front and rear pto winches. I cant figure what you could hook it to if you were burried that it would'nt destroy. Big a$$ed truck.



HOLY [email protected] You can try and hook to old sherman tank but you might be able to move that too. The thing i'd be worried about is the winch tearing right off the truck if it's stuck to bad. Good luck (trying to find an anchor for your bahimith)


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> For the record, Mr High and Mighty, the ball busting has come from you. I have been trying to point out a difference between "under bidding" and "low balling". If you had sniffed less 2 cycle, you would be able to retain that (repeated) part of my posts. (Stating it again...) The situation here in NC is that there is a problem with "real" tree services OVER bidding jobs to cover their own poor business decision's to take on more debt than they can handle.
> 
> My guess is Alice would have too much mouth to work as a groundsman for you, since you have to be right and have the last dig.




 Mcfly.....their not overbidding, they have operational expenses, Insurance, W.comp, medicare, SS, Medicaid, U employment, software & book keeping, maintenance, etc.... things you dont have or know any thing about!!
When was your last quarterly audit?

This gets figured into the bid............shame when things slow down their guys get laid off, but you, Alice, jane, peter & the gang get to go to your little pay the bills Architect job!! cause your a quitter, it gets tough and you choose door # 2 (Bob Barker voice).

Im not trying to be right or get the last dig in "Mike" cooool down, dont get your blueprints soiled!!! guys like you are what ruin the industry which is probably why you chose door # 2 cause your boss had to compete with guys like you............


LXT.............


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

Not to change the subject, but i just bought a Ford F-8000 utility truck with a 42 ft. Asplundh boom on it (LB-42 is the model number i think) I didn't know if they had any major probs. with those booms or not. A crane opp. i know looked at it and said everything was in real good shape, but i didn't know if there should be anything specific i should look for/be aware of. The other question i had is how much side reach i should be able to do safely. It has four outriggers. The sister truck to the one i bought was 4X4 (not sure if it was a conversion or not) but it towered over mine and i think GVW on it was 35K i think. One big SOB.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> Now its 10 years a far cry from 30, If I counted going out with dad....hell Id have a ton more time to add to my bio. too.
> 
> you chose door #2 because it paid the bills......then stick with that nothing wrong with being an architect (sounds important) you gave up on tree work & now find the need to infiltrate the field pickin & choosing (no doubt easy stuff) while leaving others & myself with all the nice ones!!! cause I highly doubt you & your boys are doing many big ones with your 3 days of tree time.
> 
> ...




You asked about the "hands on training"... that was the 10 years prior to moving into architecture (22 years ago). I have never stopped doing tree work, so have no need to "infiltrate the field". I negotiated a 4 day work week in order to continue doing the tree work. If you had read my other posts, you would notice that I only do removals and mostly tough ones requiring climbing where no bucket truck has access. I also pointed out that if a job is better done with bucket or crane, I turn it over to those so equipped. We do, however do quite a few large ones. In the past few weeks, some of what we have done: a 56" DBH silver maple (over a house, a shed and a fence); a pair of 52"+ DBH willow oaks (partially over a house); a 38" DBH red oak (with lightening damaged core and near a house on the lean side); 30+ pines along a fence line (8"-22" DBH); and several wind damage clean up jobs. We may be part-time, but we aren't the "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service" type guys I've referred to.

Tree service didn't make me money then... because I was an employee being paid less than fair wage. Tree service makes money for me now because I bid smart and choose jobs that other people can't do as well. Sorry... I'm not doing the crap that makes you so mad. I guess my attempt to show the difference between underbidding and lowballing failed to get the point across.


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

TDunk said:


> HOLY [email protected] You can try and hook to old sherman tank but you might be able to move that too. The thing i'd be worried about is the winch tearing right off the truck if it's stuck to bad. Good luck (trying to find an anchor for your bahimith)


Lol, thats pretty much what I was thinking. I call it "Stubs" because its so high and short at the same time. Thing is an awesome marketing tool, draws more attn. than a 75 footer for only 50k. Its gonna scare the pi$$ out of those other buckets down at the gas station too, lol.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

lxt said:


> Mcfly.....their not overbidding, they have operational expenses, Insurance, W.comp, medicare, SS, Medicaid, U employment, software & book keeping, maintenance, etc.... things you dont have or know any thing about!!
> When was your last quarterly audit?
> LXT.............



When a job can be done, for a competitive cost of $1500 (quoted by two independant small services - not hacks) and the big guys quote $2500 and proceed to verbally bash the other bidders, that is overbidding.

Insurance - check...
W. Comp. - check...
Fica - check...
U employeement - not necessary in our partnership type
Software & book keeping - check...
Quarterly audit - (ouch) check... 3Q 07

I keep trying to tell you... we aren't "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service"... just the smallest group willing to take the verbal bashing here!


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> You asked about the "hands on training"... that was the 10 years prior to moving into architecture (22 years ago). I have never stopped doing tree work, so have no need to "infiltrate the field". I negotiated a 4 day work week in order to continue doing the tree work. If you had read my other posts, you would notice that I only do removals and mostly tough ones requiring climbing where no bucket truck has access. I also pointed out that if a job is better done with bucket or crane, I turn it over to those so equipped. We do, however do quite a few large ones. In the past few weeks, some of what we have done: a 56" DBH silver maple (over a house, a shed and a fence); a pair of 52"+ DBH willow oaks (partially over a house); a 38" DBH red oak (with lightening damaged core and near a house on the lean side); 30+ pines along a fence line (8"-22" DBH); and several wind damage clean up jobs. We may be part-time, but we aren't the "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service" type guys I've referred to.
> 
> Tree service didn't make me money then... because I was an employee being paid less than fair wage. Tree service makes money for me now because I bid smart and choose jobs that other people can't do as well. Sorry... I'm not doing the crap that makes you so mad. I guess my attempt to show the difference between underbidding and lowballing failed to get the point across.


Yes, you have failed to get your point accross, seems like you're just tryin to sugar coat it Mike.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> You asked about the "hands on training"... that was the 10 years prior to moving into architecture (22 years ago). I have never stopped doing tree work, so have no need to "infiltrate the field". I negotiated a 4 day work week in order to continue doing the tree work. If you had read my other posts,



Read post #137...........I have read your other posts, I dont consider 3 days a week roughly 4 months a year as giving you the experience you think you have...........far from 30yrs my man!! maybe your boss didnt pay you well cause you werent that good or very green?

yeah I read you do all the big ones!!!! when I posted saying what I did I was told to provide Pic`s..... anyone who has been in this field for any length of time has done Big ones. 


LXT..........


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 19, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yes, you have failed to get your point accross, seems like you're just tryin to sugar coat it Mike.



Nah... I'm not pumping sunshine up anyone's skirt. There are just a bunch of assumptions made when someone admits to being part-time or not owning a bucket truck. It's been fun stringing those assumptions along. The funny part is that a big part of my work is passed to me by two local companies that prefer to do bucket work and don't want the poor access sites ( the same companies I pass bucket and crane work to). They are staying SWAMPED because the two larger local companies that over extended their credit are pricing things way too high for the market. It won't be long before they come back to where they used to be with prices or they'll go away.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> When a job can be done, for a competitive cost of $1500 (quoted by two independant small services - not hacks) and the big guys quote $2500 and proceed to verbally bash the other bidders, that is overbidding.
> 
> Insurance - check...
> W. Comp. - check...
> ...




Insurance- check
W. Comp- you`re full of :censored: you are a partnership & therefore Comp would be just like Unemployment!

Fica- you are a partnership? you know you are being double taxed if you are paying this individually as your biz pays it too! are you a legal partnership? cause you guys might want to check with an accountant.

Im not gonna keep :sword: with ya!! but from what you just posted here, you have some issues, did you get package 1096 for taxes this year?

You pay Fica but not SS, medicare, medicaid.........funny no mention of these my software takes it out of my guys & me.....its law!! you have some holes in your story or im paying for things Im told I have too & dont!!


LXT..................


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

Looks like you got a lot of "experience" today LXT. I thought everyone had cooled on this thread and had begun to develop enough respect for one another to joke around and have fun. Just so you know, while you've obviously been here all day, I went to work...in the rain...doing what us "super-trimmers" do best. Working our a//es off.


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Looks like you got a lot of "experience" today LXT. I thought everyone had cooled on this thread and had begun to develop enough respect for one another to joke around and have fun. Just so you know, while you've obviously been here all day, I went to work...in the rain...doing what us "super-trimmers" do best. Working our a//es off.



Everyone had cooled down this morning then all h#ll broke loose. I just kept my 2 cents to myself. I'm just a part time super trimmer like you Blake,so i didn't feel like getting into it with the "full timers". Rain??? no thanks


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Looks like you got a lot of "experience" today LXT. I thought everyone had cooled on this thread and had begun to develop enough respect for one another to joke around and have fun. Just so you know, while you've obviously been here all day, I went to work...in the rain...doing what us "super-trimmers" do best. Working our a//es off.



Nice thing about being self employed is you have EARNED the privelege to not have to work in the rain unless for some sick reason you want to. Its a perk of having the balls/putting in enough real workie time in to start you're own thing.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

Oh well. We can't all like each other, I s'pose. I'm just happy to get my soggy boots off.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

FYI, I volunteered to come in today. Ya know, to get more experience.


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Looks like you got a lot of "experience" today LXT. I thought everyone had cooled on this thread and had begun to develop enough respect for one another to joke around and have fun. Just so you know, while you've obviously been here all day, I went to work...in the rain...doing what us "super-trimmers" do best. Working our a//es off.





Blake, I took today off.....thank god it poured where I live!! I was just trying to defend & explain from a full time standpoint why bids may vary!

dont worry I`ll be out there tommorrow & have been out there in far worse than this!! I respect everybody in this trade......but dont start off by talking about underbidding & then trying to reason your methods!

Hey if it works for you, godbless ya! & you should be working unlike us full time legit , tax paying, over bidding, legal labor using, knowing what it costs, paying our men a decent wage & benefits greeeeeeedy types!!!!!

by the way Wed are pay day & I had to do payroll!!!!! sorry I missed the rain.

Peace...... 

Take Care Be Safe

LXT...................


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## lxt (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> FYI, I volunteered to come in today. Ya know, to get more experience.



thats good keep you from getting a DUI, Now did you climb or do ground work? either way dude be safe & take care!!!!!

LXT..........


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## corndogg (Mar 19, 2008)

I can't believe I just sat here and read all of that! Yikes It's 50 degrees and sunny here, not a call all day. Just Crickets


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

Thought somebody'd bring that up soon. 

And I never called you guys greedy and have nothing but respect for people that do this full time. Hope to be one myself someday. The way I see it though, if you do a good, safe job and most importantly LIKE what it is you do, who cares what you do with the rest of your time or what you charge a customer? If you can't hack it being full time, quit yer bellyachin' and find a new career. Or get some new equipment that keeps you competitive.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

Groundwork, btw.


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## capetrees (Mar 19, 2008)

Just as a side note, as far as bidding/underbidding, what is a comfortable number to earn in a day for any of you guys, small outifts I mean. Is it $500, $1000, $1500? Supposing you could get the job done in a day, one guy in the tree, one on the ground, what should you expect to make from that crew? Elm tree, pine tree, ten trees, two trees, what ever the job, done in one day or day by day, what is a good/fair days earnings where you feel comfortable, not cheaped out and not making a killing? Just wondering if I'm too cheap, overpriced or just right. For me BTW, If I can walk away with $1000 gross on the day, I'm real happy. $600 gross, satisfied but could be better.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

You're cheaper than me, cape. We usually have three guys though. One in the tree, one on the ground, and the other one bouncing back and forth as needed. I like to average at least $100 per hour for all three of us and our equipment.


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> FYI, I volunteered to come in today. Ya know, to get more experience.


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> You're cheaper than me, cape. We usually have three guys though. One in the tree, one on the ground, and the other one bouncing back and forth as needed. I like to average at least $100 per hour for all three of us and our equipment.



He has'nt learned to figure in the cost of all the new fangled ropes or saddle that he's recently purchased.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

capetrees said:


> Just as a side note, as far as bidding/underbidding, what is a comfortable number to earn in a day for any of you guys, small outifts I mean. Is it $500, $1000, $1500? Supposing you could get the job done in a day, one guy in the tree, one on the ground, what should you expect to make from that crew? Elm tree, pine tree, ten trees, two trees, what ever the job, done in one day or day by day, what is a good/fair days earnings where you feel comfortable, not cheaped out and not making a killing? Just wondering if I'm too cheap, overpriced or just right. For me BTW, If I can walk away with $1000 gross on the day, I'm real happy. $600 gross, satisfied but could be better.



750.00 bare minimum 1250.00 feel happy two men my bucket and
grapple truck but 3500. is what I shoot for
Problem is; don't get many jobs here for much over the minimum!
Customers for the most part, don't understand what it takes to
operate two commercial trucks that one tire will be 400.00.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

How is it you charge as much as me, Rope? Auugghhh, I need an accountant!


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## ropensaddle (Mar 19, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> How is it you charge as much as me, Rope? Auugghhh, I need an accountant!



I am not sure if you mean I am high or low but it stinks here 
wages are behind. I am considered a medium to big and definitely
a little on the high side!


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

Seems low to me. I know my boss tries to bring in at least $2500 for a full day. Two partners and 3 full timers counting me. At least 3/4 of a mil in equipment though. Nevermind. I'm an idiot. It takes me at least 2 days to do what my boss does in one. I guess I'm not much cheaper than him. I'm starting to think I'm not an Underbidder afterall, just a "Super-Trimmer".


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## TDunk (Mar 19, 2008)

capetrees said:


> Just as a side note, as far as bidding/underbidding, what is a comfortable number to earn in a day for any of you guys, small outifts I mean. Is it $500, $1000, $1500? Supposing you could get the job done in a day, one guy in the tree, one on the ground, what should you expect to make from that crew? Elm tree, pine tree, ten trees, two trees, what ever the job, done in one day or day by day, what is a good/fair days earnings where you feel comfortable, not cheaped out and not making a killing? Just wondering if I'm too cheap, overpriced or just right. For me BTW, If I can walk away with $1000 gross on the day, I'm real happy. $600 gross, satisfied but could be better.



This is what this thread is all about in summary. I charge $100 and hour/$800 a day. BUT, if your going to be working on 1 tree all day and it's a big, nasty,half dead, limbs over house etc etc........ by all means charge more than $800. On jobs like that, you need compensated for your experience/know how. Example: I took down a fairly large red oak ( i think) last year. Limbs over garage, limbs over porch, and limbs over neighbors hedges. Had everything done and cleaned-up in 6 hrs. Charged him $950. If i charged him by an hourly rate, it'd come to $600. But the job it's self is worth more than $100 an hour. Complicated but you get the jist of it.


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## tree MDS (Mar 19, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I am not sure if you mean I am high or low but it stinks here
> wages are behind. I am considered a medium to big and definitely
> a little on the high side!



Yeah dude, sounds like a crap area for work, sorry about that-honestly! I feel bad for a hard work'in dude thats gotta fight that hard to make an honest wage. Around here we're spoiled, we live in one of the richest parts of CT, but its still a fight like you would'nt believe, there are some bad a$$ed treeguys along with the hacks believe me! Some sorry pansy ones too, but its big tree service area-ya get all types. I'm happy with 1400 to 1500 for 8 hours but cant allways get that so sometimes I have to do the best I can. The only time I charge more is when its a big a$$ed tree with no access, then I know I've got a good chance of gettin more because not just any "Super Trimmer" can do it and its going to take a real crew that I can put together, and it'll get done!! -even in my off season!


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## teamtree (Mar 19, 2008)

I shoot for 1200 - 1600 for full day with threes guys and all my equipment but at the end of the year it works out to be about $125 per hour. I rarely have all my equipment on one job at the same time. 

I would say I bring in around 800 - 900 most days as sometimes we only work 5-6 hours.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 19, 2008)

The reason I think of it hourly ( not bill it, mind you, I give an estimate based on how long I think it will take us and stick to that ) is because the technical climbing portion doesn't cost me anything except overhead. Running a chipper, driving a truck, hiring guys to drag brush costs gas, wages and overhead. Though one takes more skill, the other takes more money and it sort of evens itself out.


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## capetrees (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanks all! I figure I'm around the same. The low ball of 600 is going to pay the one guy and then it pays me and the wear and tear on the wequipment but that low ball is in the dead of winter when its slow and competitive. Some trees will get the one price and take into consideration the skills, equip. etc and it will be higher but if its a cost plus job, $120/hr for one man and chipper and the other hours $40/hr per man. Typical 8 hr day would break down to 1 guy 8 hrs, $320, one guy 7 hrs, $280 and the remaining 1 hour the same guy is on the chipper @$120 = $720. Thats for those drag brush all day from topping trees for views and such. When I first started, I was getting screwed, underpricing jobs for lack of experience, the experience being that I didn't realize people pay good money for taking out trees. Its something I love to do but who knew I could get PAID WELL for it!:greenchainsaw:


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## treemandan (Mar 19, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Sounds like you need to get an accountant!



Funny thing is he is not returning my calls. He is an older respectable gent and is either dead or trying to find a pen in a mountain of papers. One day very soon I will walk into his building and see which it is.
I don't really know a whole lot but I know to do what he says. What he says is this: Since I am the sole prop. of my company and I have not one single solitary employee, that once a year I take my stack down to his office and dump it on his desk. He also tells me( and I can plainly see this) that for me to account for 30% of my adjusted gross earnings will go to pay for all the stuff I am liable for as a US citizen. Maybe 25% percent goes to whatever else I need to pay for but that is what I adjust my gross with. I work real hard to adjust that gross income.
I do not employ people under the table but instead use a legal definition of a sub- contractor. We maintain a high level of skill and ethic, sorry I don't have pictures. This is the first year 100% percent of my earnings come from my company alone. Well maybe there was 4 days I climbed for Josh but that is only 1200.00.
In the years beforehand I mostly was a sub picked up little jobs here and there. I know what is out there and all companies have some type of issues. Whether or not we devulge or even admit it to ourselves is another story.
No one has started a business in this industry like a 'fully operational deathstar' and of course that mean if you are not up to par you might get blown up by the preverbial photon torpedo( see Star Wars to understand the analogy, but I feel it fits).
Whether or not I stay where I am at( its ok) or get bigger I am not able to say. Sometimes I feel as though I actually hurt the industry as another knucklehead to look out for but all in all I am not doing anything illegal and in this world IT IS ' you have to do for you'.
Sure there are guys who operated an illegal business, some of them are nationwide and worth millions. Don't beat yourself up if you do a little fudging, I do exactly what any one would do when someone wants to pay in cash.
Things were different 20 years ago that is true and those of you who started your tree business then either started from the ground up or had someone GIVE you money in one form or the other.
You know, I don't like business, not at all. I have these dream of big skyscrapers with men and women in straight fitting clothes chasing me around trying to stomp me out. Really,it was the mushrooms in college. But in that dream the only place I could hide was under the green foliage. What that means is that I am no great business man and if I was I would certainly not do this work or start a business in this industry in hopes of being rich. But this work? I don't think there is anything else I could do and I try to do my best. Which, I'm told, ain't bad. Sorry, still no pictures. And I really enjoy doing the mom and pop thing which puts me at a connectable level with my clients. You don't think I would work for them if I didn't like em? Very rare is it that I have a problem or a misunderstanding with them.
I do pay my way out of respect for evryone else though, for roads, schools,parks,etc. Besides, I am terribly afraid of going to prison, very afraid.
As far as hacks go, sure light em up. You had just better take a real good look at yourself first. I do. I saw a birch today that had been topped at 5 inches dia. up there and 3' stubs were left sticking up to the heavens. I said to myself,"that's crazy, they should have called me". That's all for now, you bet there's is more, thanks for listening and stop calling each other names. Be sure what your perception of what you are reading is what the guys who wrote it really meant.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah dude, sounds like a crap area for work, sorry about that-honestly! I feel bad for a hard work'in dude thats gotta fight that hard to make an honest wage. Around here we're spoiled, we live in one of the richest parts of CT, but its still a fight like you would'nt believe, there are some bad a$$ed treeguys along with the hacks believe me! Some sorry pansy ones too, but its big tree service area-ya get all types. I'm happy with 1400 to 1500 for 8 hours but cant allways get that so sometimes I have to do the best I can. The only time I charge more is when its a big a$$ed tree with no access, then I know I've got a good chance of gettin more because not just any "Super Trimmer" can do it and its going to take a real crew that I can put together, and it'll get done!! -even in my off season!



This tree here was 1250.00 cleaned up and stump ground what
would it get in your neck of the woods? It leaned toward that house
it was 101 foot tall and a 45 inch base! Most of the services here
said they could not or would not attempt it.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

Treeman dan I was referring to what you said at least I think, was paying
on a 1000. dollar job 300. Correct me if I am wrong but overhead comes out before tax, well I am inc. maybe that is the diff; I don't
understand half of what my accountant tells me


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## treejunkie13 (Mar 20, 2008)

TDunk said:


> For the past year or so, there has been a small crew around here that has been underbidding everyone else in the area. For instance, last year about Sept. the township had 27 trees they wanted removed. All red elms. 5 had to be dropped and cleaned up, the other 22 just had to be dropped, but i'd say about half of them had to be climbed and sectioned down. I'm not going to say what he bid, but it worked out to be under $70 a tree, wether he had to climb and clean-up or just drop. Another instance was i went to look at a big Hemlock tree that a friend of mine wanted taken down (he live's right down the road from the "competition") As soon as i get home my phone rings and it was my friend. He's says "you'll never believe what just happened" so i ask "what". He said "your competition showed up right after you left saying that he will beet any price that i gave him and that i don't know what i'm doing......blah blah blah". Needless to say he didn't get the job, but i found out today that he's downsizing (getting rid of his bucket truck). Come to find out he's not making enough money to fix his equipment. The clutch is junk in his truck and i'm not sure what wrong with his chipper but it's out for the count. I wasn't going to post this because i didn't want to seem like i was bashing/bad mouthing him. I don't do that. I'm confident in the work i do, and that's all that really concerns me. But on one hand i hate to see people fail at something, but on the other hand i'm glad that his underbidding everyone is starting to catch up to him. I know this is something that alot of people deal with and i just wanted to share it.



And share you did...


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## treejunkie13 (Mar 20, 2008)

TDunk said:


> To make a long story short, there were 2 1/2 tree co. in our small town ( Davey's, a small two man crew, and me doing it part time) Now there's 6 Co. 3 reputable and 3 hacks. Now two hack Co. are out so work is gettign better but i just hope there aren't any more to replace them.



For being fairly new to the tree business, you sure have learned how to call them out...
I'm guessing that you have got Davey's on your hack list?
Either way there will always be more to replace them!


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## TDunk (Mar 20, 2008)

treejunkie13 said:


> For being fairly new to the tree business, you sure have learned how to call them out...
> I'm guessing that you have got Davey's on your hack list?
> Either way there will always be more to replace them!



Accually no. I have no prob. with Daveys. I know both crews personally. I've even do work on there personal vehicals when i'm not doing to tree work, as well as working on Davey's bucket trucks too. There so busy right now (and probably for the next year or so) doing line trimming for Penelec Electric that they aren't even doing much residential work. Where in NW PA do you live???


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## treejunkie13 (Mar 20, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Accually no. I have no prob. with Daveys. I know both crews personally. I've even do work on there personal vehicals when i'm not doing to tree work, as well as working on Davey's bucket trucks too. There so busy right now (and probably for the next year or so) doing line trimming for Penelec Electric that they aren't even doing much residential work. Where in NW PA do you live???



I live down the road and around the corner from you. Working on my 12th year being a HACK!


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## TDunk (Mar 20, 2008)

treejunkie13 said:


> I live down the road and around the corner from you. Working on my 12th year being a HACK!



I know who you are, talked to you on the phone before.


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## masterarbor (Mar 20, 2008)

i shoot for $65.00 per man per hour, and usually work a two man crew. sometimes i get lucky and make a ton more  and sometimes i'll underestimate the job (it happens to the best of us) and it'll dip a bit under $65.00. but it it dips too much, i'm in trouble, 'cause operating costs are so crazy and at the end of the day i want a decent chunk of change. i mean, i like the work, but it should pay what it's worth. it's always a fine line. i literally charge the maximum that i think i can and still get the job, while having them call back and refer me to friends. i don't have any ethical conflicts about trying to get the max. Case in point:

there was a vase salesman by the side of the road standing with his grandson. he had two tables set up, one on the right and one on the left. the table on the left had a sign that said, "vases, $10.00". the table on the right had a sign that said, "vases $20.00". the odd thing about it was all of the vases were exactly alike. the man's grandson asked, "grandpa, why are there two different prices when all of the vases are identical?" the salesman looked down at the boy, put his hand on the boys head and smiled, "some people like to pay $10.00, some like to pay $20.00. 


i like to set up the table that sells for $20.00


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## tree MDS (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> This tree here was 1250.00 cleaned up and stump ground what
> would it get in your neck of the woods? It leaned toward that house
> it was 101 foot tall and a 45 inch base! Most of the services here
> said they could not or would not attempt it.


Crikey! that third shot reminds me of my ex girlfriend!


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 20, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Crikey! that third shot reminds me of my ex girlfriend!




haHA!! I think I know that girl!


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## tree MDS (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> This tree here was 1250.00 cleaned up and stump ground what
> would it get in your neck of the woods? It leaned toward that house
> it was 101 foot tall and a 45 inch base! Most of the services here
> said they could not or would not attempt it.



Seriously though, its hard to tell from the pics, but probably alot more just for the danger factor. I'm guessing you didnt dare rope anything to that or climb it so it was probablt pretty quick-am I right? Probably took 5-6 hours, my guess.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 20, 2008)

I run my tree service here in Canada from Apr.1 to the middle of Nov. Winter is severe here Nov. to Mar. Good time to be in the shop getting ready for next season. But we are blessed with long summer days here,day light from 4am to midnight.You can put a long day in here and take the weekends off to recoop.
Look at my signature and you can see I'm a small operator.Me and my groundie who I'm fortunate to have stuck with me for 3 years now, have made as much as $3,700 in a 14hr day. The job was 7 balsam poplars 50' x 24"dia. as wide as tall all alongside a house.Everthing hauled away including stump grinding chips ,ground leveled & raked up.All the customer had to do was spread a little black dirt and some grass seed. Now some other tree services might have charged more but then it might take them alot longer to do. I have confidence in my felling from prior experience as a faller.Just dropping the tree saves you alot of time. Only 2 of these trees I had to climb and rig down.Yes I have taken all the Arbormaster courses since 2001.
I figure my outfit has to make $150 hr and $200hr if I have to climb to make it all worthwhile in the tree & stump removal & pruning business.We charge $5 per inch [stump dia. at ground level] cleanup included.


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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Treeman dan I was referring to what you said at least I think, was paying
> on a 1000. dollar job 300. Correct me if I am wrong but overhead comes out before tax, well I am inc. maybe that is the diff; I don't
> understand half of what my accountant tells me



Yes, I pay my taxes( fed and etc, and self employment tax which covers SS, medi and whatnot) based on the adj. gross. Overhead adjusts the gross.
Being a sole prop is a little hairy but I would relly have to start armageddon for someone to come after me, I take it easy and stick to what I know. I would like to go LLC and am just bideing time to see if it will pan out.
I guess it is different for everybody and the only job I have is my little operation but my operation is not the only source of income for my household.
I will go along with my company and see where it takes me, yes, it could go south for a number of reasons but it could also go up.
It is very competitive with older companies bidding to keep going and new companies that do what they have to do. Its a FN mess!
I lost a buunch of jobs to guys who do it cheaper and I think that I am extremely fair in my bids. I like this work very much, I don't like this business. People who hire me are happy and that makes me happy and that's all it is. My business plan is to maintain this level for a few years and go from there, as long as I have enough to buy a box and get a hole dug at the end I guess I did allright. I should just buy a lawnmower or frozen yogurt stand.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Seriously though, its hard to tell from the pics, but probably alot more just for the danger factor. I'm guessing you didnt dare rope anything to that or climb it so it was probablt pretty quick-am I right? Probably took 5-6 hours, my guess.



Well no as far as roping, the limbs where huge at my buckets
sixty foot height and red oak so weighted good! I got all I could off
and hooked up my winch strapped that base and slowly cut it. The
top of that tree was live and holding wood scarce, it would have been
6hours except for the head scratching and extra rope for preventing a
nightmare. Also;it was just me and my wife and one groundy!
4 hours first day, 5 hours second, but I am the only one with cdl
and both trucks are cdl so; get bucket drive home and get mack grapple!
I took way longer than needed but much study went in too it and by the
time I cut, all doubt of a problem had been eliminated.


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## tree MDS (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Well no as far as roping, the limbs where huge at my buckets
> sixty foot height and red oak so weighted good! I got all I could off
> and hooked up my winch strapped that base and slowly cut it. The
> top of that tree was live and holding wood scarce, it would have been
> ...



Nice work man-still a decent check for the biz even with all the driving around, thats the way I look at that stuff. BTW, the third pic still reminds me of my ex!  I like a bull rope and my tractor winch for that type of hairy s#[email protected], once I cut some I just step away and give the signal-down it goes, thing is so fast and powerfull, I love it.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

To all the part timers I don't see a problem if you are working toward 
a goal of being a business. If you have insurance and are licensed that is!
I worked part time for two years but my day job was supervising tree work
around powerlines and had been doing that for 13 years for that company
and 10 for a orange colored company. Now someone can come in and
start scrutinizing me if they want to, but I have more than paid my dues.
I bought 900.00 worth of study material and software and even if I never
take the test to be an arborist, I consider myself one.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Nice work man-still a decent check for the biz even with all the driving around, thats the way I look at that stuff. BTW, the third pic still reminds me of my ex!



Now you have to ask yourself, was it you or prior partners that made
her that way


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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2008)

Oh yeah then there is this: The #1 reason that I have the clients I do now is
THEY TRUST ME TO DO THE SAME JOB SOMEONE ELSE WILL DO AT A BETTER PRICE.
You can't just read that as one sentence because there is a lot more to it, OF COURSE. What are the key words? There is not one that isn't.You have to account for the interpretations of every single person, some who you never have met and you never thought could exist. 



New ventures are challenged, like old ones, but it is not the same. You have to understand Mikey D's is a lot more , uhm, busy?. Let's here some more about the old days; What was it like? ( I am not actually asking to hear what it is like, but think to yourself)

All this, while trudging down another highly technikel, highly dangerous and surely should be a highly profitable day.


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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> To all the part timers I don't see a problem if you are working toward
> a goal of being a business. If you have insurance and are licensed that is!
> I worked part time for two years but my day job was supervising tree work
> around powerlines and had been doing that for 13 years for that company
> ...



Some think " oh look there is good money by noon", and get traumatized or worse. My craftsmen saw and numerous apparatuses's were splendid when I part timed around in 94 or so.. No ads, no ins, no taxes. I worked for money, beer, or parts, still do. Total tally? Not much. Talk about underbidding. I did a jobs for my cheap landlord in North Philly.( I think My trailer is still there.) He gave me a 1977 IH Scout with a V8, 33's and a rag 
top. Jump started it out of crap hole down there drove it to the other side of the river where I replaced a freeze plug and U-bolted the body down. Used it to yank stumps and haul brush. Did a job for my boss( car chop) to chop down a tree, so I notched half of it in to the street- cops start screamming and I just look at him and say" Just give me a second". My buddy, for a 100, and I put it in the truck and took it to the woods. You know the woods, they place they just bulldozed and built cheap luxo-lots on just under the power lines? You find a lot more than my piles down there and that cop was just a quick pushover baby, yeah!
Back then I did jobs for people I knew only, and didn't't think to much of it. I was glad to be doing something interesting and challenging and it helped pay the rent. I liked the feeling it gave me and that evolved in to what some may call my business.


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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Well no as far as roping, the limbs where huge at my buckets
> sixty foot height and red oak so weighted good! I got all I could off
> and hooked up my winch strapped that base and slowly cut it. The
> top of that tree was live and holding wood scarce, it would have been
> ...



Better to spend time to study than to bust your ... That is what makes it possible. Nice job there. looked hard to drop, love them ropes and winches.


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## lxt (Mar 20, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> To all the part timers I don't see a problem if you are working toward
> a goal of being a business. If you have insurance and are licensed that is!
> I worked part time for two years but my day job was supervising tree work
> around powerlines and had been doing that for 13 years for that company
> ...




Rope I agree & know what it is like to work the LCTT field as a crewleader/babysitter, as for your opening statement I agree again, tried to rep ya but says I need to spread it around some. 

Ropes area is like mine as far as money making go, Ive talked to others from AS on the phone & here to make $500 a day is pretty good Ive had days I make $1000 very, very few Ive made $1500. The way it is here if I make $600-800 Im happy.......folks here will quibble over $25 & less some times.

What I hate & some on here may have taken it wrong is when a job is gonna take a 3-4 man crew 8+ hrs & I bid $800 & then some pickup truck with guys who have day jobs other than tree work who are part timers bid it for $400, cause it each one of them makes a $100 a day their happy!!! & they always ask for cash!!

Thats why when I hear people say I pick & choose I wonder is it really pick & choose or is that you do the jobs that people only pay you cash? Im not pointing the finger here, Im just saying thats what happens in my neck of the woods.......so I apologize if I lumped anybody into this category that doesnt deserve to be!!


LXT.................Damit why cant a tree guy hit the lottery?


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

lxt said:


> Rope I agree & know what it is like to work the LCTT field as a crewleader/babysitter, as for your opening statement I agree again, tried to rep ya but says I need to spread it around some.
> 
> Ropes area is like mine as far as money making go, Ive talked to others from AS on the phone & here to make $500 a day is pretty good Ive had days I make $1000 very, very few Ive made $1500. The way it is here if I make $600-800 Im happy.......folks here will quibble over $25 & less some times.
> 
> ...



That frustration is affecting all of us as well as illegal labor. I have see more illegals stealing work than the cash drunks but neither are good. If you fall into these categories, I don't and wont support it and just know that fines for working unlicensed is hefty and will set you back!


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## pdqdl (Mar 20, 2008)

*Damn those CDL requirements!*



ropensaddle said:


> ...but I am the only one with cdl
> and both trucks are cdl so; get bucket drive home and get mack grapple!
> ...



I have the same problem getting qualified drivers. All my current drivers are "home grown". I should start a CDL school. 

By the way, that would probably be a $2500 tree around here, just for the scare value. I presume you were able to get close with your grapple truck to pick up the mess? Most of our jobs don't have enough room to drop 101' tall trees. Not that there are many trees in KC that are that tall.

Did you cut that sucker off at the base, or did you go up the trunk a good way? I would have been afraid of the stump crushing during the cut.


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## pdqdl (Mar 20, 2008)

*Arborist exam*



ropensaddle said:


> ...I bought 900.00 worth of study material and software and even if I never take the test to be an arborist, I consider myself one.



Take the test! Unless you have been spending all your time with your head [where the sun don't shine], it'll be a breeze. With that many years of experience, just focus on the plant biology, and ISA's sometimes silly rules/guidelines. 

Sadly, I think that a fellow could easily pass the test, and be clueless how to do the work. My favorite one is where they instruct you to never cut a felling wedge deeper than 1/3 the trunk diameter. NO FOOLING! It's in the book.


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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Take the test! Unless you have been spending all your time with your head [where the sun don't shine], it'll be a breeze. With that many years of experience, just focus on the plant biology, and ISA's sometimes silly rules/guidelines.
> 
> Sadly, I think that a fellow could easily pass the test, and be clueless how to do the work. My favorite one is where they instruct you to never cut a felling wedge deeper than 1/3 the trunk diameter. NO FOOLING! It's in the book.



Not to start an argument and of course I speak for myself but it seems highly illogical , Captain, for me to past a test that says I is when I ain't. Also I wasn't attempting sarcasm but couldn't pass up up the reference.

Have I lost jobs because I am not certified? Yup. And to maple spikers and toppers, would you believe it? Have I been jibber jabbered to the point of exhaustion by sales pitches concerning certain certification? True. Is your prowlness measured by a number of trusted clients that keep you rolling? Are you able to find more?
I worked at Uhaul( part time of course) as a truck mechanic at odd hours. Randy (head guy) asked me , in a raptured tone during a conversation " What better way is there to judge a mechanics level of competence than to use the flat rate system?" The flat rate system, if you are not famliar, is when you get paid by the job and the job only pays so much. Could be nice, it could suck. Now my response was directed to the topic so I told him that if really wanted to know that maybe he should become a competent mechanic for a few days. It was OK, he was up against a pretty big wall and being the YES man that I know he needed to be I let it slide. I left because of the traffic getting to the place and of course being a part of that pretty big wall.
The guys new thing was that you had to fix 3 trucks a day. Does that remind anyone of anything?


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## ropensaddle (Mar 20, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I have the same problem getting qualified drivers. All my current drivers are "home grown". I should start a CDL school.
> 
> By the way, that would probably be a $2500 tree around here, just for the scare value. I presume you were able to get close with your grapple truck to pick up the mess? Most of our jobs don't have enough room to drop 101' tall trees. Not that there are many trees in KC that are that tall.
> 
> Did you cut that sucker off at the base, or did you go up the trunk a good way? I would have been afraid of the stump crushing during the cut.


I cut it at the base, the trunk was hollow at least twenty feet if you look, you can see the decay goes up that trunk twenty feet. I was not sure if it stopped there or went further! I had to use the buckets 20 ton winch and did not really want to be in the tree if all hel? broke loose! I have some extra heavy duty strap binders that I wrapped around the base to prevent blow out and made a slight notch winched it until the top moved a few feet and started my cut. Once it started moving signaled to my wife to bring it on over. The backup rope took slack in case cable or winch failure, which my winch has never had so felt confident.


In the pic you can see the strap binder i wrapped 20feet and bound it down tight it prevented exploding stump!


As far as the test, yes I plan to take it but must make a living,
will wait until it comes to town and I am less busy.


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## masterarbor (Mar 20, 2008)




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## treemandan (Mar 20, 2008)

masterarbor said:


>



Why the long face? 

Ropes! Ropes! ROPES! Fanfntastic! and YEEFNHAA! NICE NICE NICE. That grapple makes that one go away easy, I bet. I knew a guy who dug a hole in a cemetary so deep you could have fit 500 trees like that in it. And that's exactly what he did.
I have done trees just like that and some where the top had the decay. You bet I overthink.


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## chucknduck (Mar 24, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I don't understand that guy a lot of times either- Tom Trees that is.
> I just got back from the firehouse where I was having a beer with my competition. He was hammered, I tend to stay sober.
> Anyway we talked about an insurance job we both bid on : His= 1900.00 Mine 950.00. We both looked at each other in amazement. Turns out the homeowner kept the insurance money and had his kids clean it up.
> I was pretty sure I could have been out of there in less than a day so here is the breakdown. I use a contactor with his own insurance, a buddy.
> ...


I am young and don't have all that much experience, but I can tell you that it would be hard to grow your business or even stay a float at $400 a day. Some of the other guys have talked about unexpected expenses that come up, and they must know from experience. I won't work for that amount of money. I am in tree work to make a good living! I hATE the competition when they bid work too cheap, so I bought all kinds of equipment so I can do 5 times as much work as they can in a day with half the people. I went from having no equipment at all, a year and a half ago, to having a grapple , a bucket, a chipper, stumper, trailers, and everything else all paid for! Good luck


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## tree MDS (Mar 24, 2008)

chucknduck said:


> I am young and don't have all that much experience, but I can tell you that it would be hard to grow your business or even stay a float at $400 a day. Some of the other guys have talked about unexpected expenses that come up, and they must know from experience. I won't work for that amount of money. I am in tree work to make a good living! I hATE the competition when they bid work too cheap, so I bought all kinds of equipment so I can do 5 times as much work as they can in a day with half the people. I went from having no equipment at all, a year and a half ago, to having a grapple , a bucket, a chipper, stumper, trailers, and everything else all paid for! Good luck


Good post, thats what I'm talking about! See someone very successful in this buisiness once told me that if you work too cheap all you'll end up with when you're older is some broken down obsolete equipment and alot of underdeveloed clients etc. But that really stuck with me because when the days of young super climber are gone what becomes of me after all my work? I want to someday be driving around checking on the boys, doing a little work just to stay in shape, running the biz-not some joke to the young punks all old with my broken down junk equipment, feeling tired out and like an old loser. Just 2 more cents.


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## treemandan (Mar 24, 2008)

chucknduck said:


> I am young and don't have all that much experience, but I can tell you that it would be hard to grow your business or even stay a float at $400 a day. Some of the other guys have talked about unexpected expenses that come up, and they must know from experience. I won't work for that amount of money. I am in tree work to make a good living! I hATE the competition when they bid work too cheap, so I bought all kinds of equipment so I can do 5 times as much work as they can in a day with half the people. I went from having no equipment at all, a year and a half ago, to having a grapple , a bucket, a chipper, stumper, trailers, and everything else all paid for! Good luck



I does depend on what you do for the 400 and also you have to look at what it cost you to make it. Labor is labor, for that money expect to hammer out a full day with a crane or other hairy job, probably with a crew of half legall immigrants or a crew of miscrents. So you just have a truck and your climbing gear. And that 400 is gross while working on the 1099.
Net 400 doing a small easy job that equals 950 which might be 6 hours and cost you your labor plus 550 ( that's everything!). I don't see the problem.
I just bid 4300 for 3 guys and a climber, 2 trucks, chipper, loader. I figure we do it right and unstressed for 2 days, if it goes right. I doubt that I will get that job because I am sure another company can go lower. And they will.
I get smacked out by a company who has been around for years and they have to compete. Where is the profit if they are cheaper? Labor. How do you cheapen the labor? In three words- ITS NOT GOOD.
I think companies that are making awesome money have a very elite clientel and , of course are bad at business. I use the word bad as would Dennis Rodman. Elite clients or not you better be bad.
Out here, where people don't think about trees, they don't care about reputation either. In fact the worse you are known to be the more work you get because that means cheap! Go ahead, go up to them and tell them how much of a tree guy you are and how much you have studied and how much you think you are worth. The next thing they do is call another guy, if you can beat his price for the same job you're out.
Of course I refer to new clients but even old ones who call you back expect it for free. Hell, they payed you last time.
Today I messed around with some business crapola until 2pm when I did a job for 300.00, by myself, and got back to make dinner at 5:30. Tomorrow I will attempt 300 for a full day( sub- climbing) showing them how to finish removing this oak and why they should have called me first, but they allready know why. It will be an easy day and my cost is labor and a few bucks for gas. If I am not out in 8 its 40 bucks and hour to a guy who works WITH me.


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## Brush Hog (Mar 25, 2008)

*This fits in right here*

Two 30 ft blue spruce taken down, chipped, trunk hauled away and stumps ground for $500.  WTF!!!!!!!!. Would have been nice if the guy called me back to let me know that my over the phone guesstimate was beat by $700 and saved me an hour round trip. Especially since diesel is $4.19 a gallon. Did the old fart really think I was going to beat that price.


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## hornett224 (Mar 25, 2008)

*my buddy has a new tactic.*

he tells them he isn't giving them an amount.he asks what they want to pay.then tells them whether or not he can do it for that price.he says even if he doesn't get the job it's worth it to see the look on their face.

i am not getting any work.i have over 30 bids out and nothing.prices are more than fair but not what i'd call lowballing.we do the best work in the area and our cleanups are impeccable.ever one praises us for the cleanup.never had an accident,go above and beyond.i usually blow the saw dust off the roof and blow out the leaves in the gutters as well.fix any divits in the lawn.most guys here are cut,collect,and run.no cleanup and looks like a hurricane went through. 

since i have nothing to lose at this point i'm going to just go to the insane with my prices.hell,i might even get lucky and get one,LOL.


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## hornett224 (Mar 25, 2008)

*i never give figures over the phone.*



Brush Hog said:


> Two 30 ft blue spruce taken down, chipped, trunk hauled away and stumps ground for $500.  WTF!!!!!!!!. Would have been nice if the guy called me back to let me know that my over the phone guesstimate was beat by $700 and saved me an hour round trip. Especially since diesel is $4.19 a gallon. Did the old fart really think I was going to beat that price.



i will not give a price unless i am there looking at the job in person.i learned early on that the customers description of 40 foot spruce is different than the actual 75 foot white pine i see when i show up.


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## Slvrmple72 (Mar 25, 2008)

200 - 275 .... an hour
We do dangerous work requiring well-maintained equipment, fuel, healthy bodies, workers comp, insurance, life insurance, medical, dental, vision, equipment maintenance/replacement, and dont forget the taxes. On top of all this you want to save for retirement (think: Roth IRA ) and take vacations, buy a beer now and then, take the Mrs. out on the town, and enjoy a comfortable lifestyle, not extravagant, but comfortable. You find that young buck busting his a$$ for chump change doing a tree for cheap take the time to set him straight, hire him even, and train him about everything you know. Too many people undervalue the quality of their work. Too many customers try to undervalue the work they want you to do for them but expect nothing less than perfection. When it comes right down to it you need to decide if you want to continue in the market warts and all or if it is time to move on.


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## hornett224 (Mar 25, 2008)

*i have had a few tell me they want to pay so much an hour*

i tell them no way.you are not going to single handidly restructure the tree industry because your a cheap ass.

i explain it o some of my buddies in the business like this:

people don't like paying for tree work because when you are done and gone the didn't get anything tangible.they paid a lot of money and have no i-phone,flat screen tv,swimming pool,new deck,or roof.they just have an empty space in their yard that they paid a lot of money for.not something with a complicated remote and a bunch of flashing lights.


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 25, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> i will not give a price unless i am there looking at the job in person.i learned early on that the customers description of 40 foot spruce is different than the actual 75 foot white pine i see when i show up.



I find that most customers call saying they have this huge tree, we get there and it's 16" flopper. 5' on the stump, now that biatch is big.

The other misconsception many customers have is how much of a mess they will have in their yard if we don't clean it up. Customer: Oh yeah I'll have my boys clean that up over Christmas vacation. Tree comes down.........Customer: could you cut that up, maybe move that, pull that brush over here. Tree man thinking: what happen to no clean up? That's fine though the meter is running.


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## hornett224 (Mar 25, 2008)

*i had a guy like that last night.*



Nailsbeats said:


> I find that most customers call saying they have this huge tree, we get there and it's 16" flopper. 5' on the stump, now that biatch is big.
> 
> The other misconsception many customers have is how much of a mess they will have in their yard if we don't clean it up. Customer: Oh yeah I'll have my boys clean that up over Christmas vacation. Tree comes down.........Customer: could you cut that up, maybe move that, pull that brush over here. Tree man thinking: what happen to no clean up? That's fine though the meter is running.



two swamp maples in a small fenced in back yard with a shed,a car,and an above ground pool.he says "just get them down,i'll do the cleanup".i told him we cannot work with all that brush on the ground.we aren't walking around with running saws tripping over that crap.


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 25, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> two swamp maples in a small fenced in back yard with a shed,a car,and an above ground pool.he says "just get them down,i'll do the cleanup".i told him we cannot work with all that brush on the ground.we aren't walking around with running saws tripping over that crap.



That is classic Hornett, just classic. In those situations I like to leave all the crap in a pile at the base of the tree, Drop all the big wood on top the brush and then crawl out of the pile like rambo and say, "see ya later".


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## HolmenTree (Mar 25, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> two swamp maples in a small fenced in back yard with a shed,a car,and an above ground pool.he says "just get them down,i'll do the cleanup".i told him we cannot work with all that brush on the ground.we aren't walking around with running saws tripping over that crap.



Hear hear [right on!]


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## chucknduck (Mar 26, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I does depend on what you do for the 400 and also you have to look at what it cost you to make it. Labor is labor, for that money expect to hammer out a full day with a crane or other hairy job, probably with a crew of half legall immigrants or a crew of miscrents. So you just have a truck and your climbing gear. And that 400 is gross while working on the 1099.
> Net 400 doing a small easy job that equals 950 which might be 6 hours and cost you your labor plus 550 ( that's everything!). I don't see the problem.
> I just bid 4300 for 3 guys and a climber, 2 trucks, chipper, loader. I figure we do it right and unstressed for 2 days, if it goes right. I doubt that I will get that job because I am sure another company can go lower. And they will.
> I get smacked out by a company who has been around for years and they have to compete. Where is the profit if they are cheaper? Labor. How do you cheapen the labor? In three words- ITS NOT GOOD.
> ...



Hey Sorry, I posted my "advice" before reading all of your posts. I thought you were a newbie like my self, I can see you have some experience! It is true what you say about businesses making good money because they are bad to the bone and have rich clients. It is also true that I am the owner of the company, not somebody who subs for jobs, or works for anybody except the customer. I live in small town, where there is lots of oil money, so some people have money. I do have all the equipment though. With two big trucks running all day, $950 just won't pay the bills, we'll do that in 3 hours or less most of the time. Heck I filled up the grapple truck yesterday and it took $700 worth of diesel!


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## lxt (Mar 26, 2008)

chucknduck said:


> Heck I filled up the grapple truck yesterday and it took $700 worth of diesel!




This is the reason I down sized my operation!! by the time I gave a bid with all the operational costs the home owner already had a bid(low,lowball) from a competitor that was 1/2 the price, then they wonder why are you so high?

In my area its not grow your biz, its keep it small(pickup truck) & undercut everyone, its hard to hang in there & wait for the busy season so you can get a peice of the NORMAL pie.

I had some season start up maintenance to do yesterday & while getting parts I run into a guy with a rusted out 70`s era ford with side boards made from pallets, truck was primer here, red there, another color here....with make shift signs claiming he was a Tree, firewood & lawn service, I see alot of these types now!!

Sad truth is people feel sorry for em, look at that poor soul....he needs the money!! I pull in with nice equipment & a well maintained older truck!! & the consensus is.....I must be doing ok, look at how nice your stuff is!!!!

I try to stay professional & engage in proper practices, I enlighten the HO`s to the do`s & donts, I try to get them to understand the way a biz legitamately works!! In the end..........$$$$$$$ matters & the lowest bid prevails, Ive returned to many of these people as they wait for a "I told ya so" but I never do!!

whats even worse is most of these lowbidding hacks are savy talkers!! they dont have but enough experience to get in trouble, they talk the HO right in to doing something wrong (topping & leave mess) & then suggest to call for cleanup from someone like me  !!! LOL.

Bottom line as I see it.........hack or be hacked, bid low or be underbid, professional = money, Old ugly equip = pity & you get the job..........Its hard to grow & get the right tools & having once been there find myself now having to go backwards to become competitive!!!!


LXT....................


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## Brush Hog (Mar 26, 2008)

> i will not give a price unless i am there looking at the job in person.i learned early on that the customers description of 40 foot spruce is different than the actual 75 foot white pine i see when i show up.



I don't and told this guy I need to see them in person. He was looking for a ballpark price. I was last guy to come look at them so he had plenty of time to call and say I'm all set.



> This is the reason I down sized my operation!! by the time I gave a bid with all the operational costs the home owner already had a bid(low,lowball) from a competitor that was 1/2 the price, then they wonder why are you so high?



This is the exact reason I will start working for someone on Monday. I'll still have time to do my own thing but I'll have a weekly pay check to boot.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm wondering if downsizing is really the best option. There are several tree services in this area ( my boss's included ) that have all the fancy equipment, grapple trucks, tow behind grinders, 18 inch chippers, bucket trucks, tracksteers, all shiny, all belled and whistled out. They aren't starving. Big new houses and trucks, everything. I think the reason they've prospered is because they keep investing in the business so they can do things faster. The amount of work we did today would have taken my operation at least 3 days to do. I like to make $1k a day, my boss likes to make 3. I think we're bidding everything about the same, they can just make more because they've been upsizing for the past 25 years and they get a lot more jobs than I do.


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## chucknduck (Mar 26, 2008)

lxt said:


> This is the reason I down sized my operation!! by the time I gave a bid with all the operational costs the home owner already had a bid(low,lowball) from a competitor that was 1/2 the price, then they wonder why are you so high?
> 
> In my area its not grow your biz, its keep it small(pickup truck) & undercut everyone, its hard to hang in there & wait for the busy season so you can get a peice of the NORMAL pie.
> 
> ...



That's why I give bids in a 98 f-150 that is a little dinged up. Then, I show up with a grapple truck and a bucket truck and do the job in a snap! Actually, I think people want to be sure you can do the job with what you've got. So, I think the equipment will get you all the big or tough jobs, which pay better. But, people who need easy stuff done, like a job that you can do with a pole saw, look at you're equipment and think that you're too expensive, and they might be right!


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## lxt (Mar 27, 2008)

I agree faster might be better & make you more $$$, However when I had the 5 ton with grapple, the track skid steer, the track stumper....these Items would sit more than work!

Most folks are keeping the wood in my area to offset heating costs, most dont care about the stump aspects of the tree & if they do...there is a guy that will do any size stump so cheap I cant/wouldnt even think about it.

bottom line is most just want the tree down cause the height & danger are something they dont want to even mess with, so there I am with 100k of equipment with $1000 worth of fuel sitting back at the yard doing nothing, It wasnt always like this though, seems the past 2yrs it has just steadily kept going down hill.

The guys in my area with all the nice shiny equip. are the cheapest, they`re scared to death of loosing there Azz, they have to work to make the payments..........so all the hacks underbid them & now the price is so far south I dont see how any one of them can make it.

Whats funny is right now I am booked through to may, while still thinking about taking a utility job?????? I down sized to save my work force!! It seems to be working for me just sucks having to do more things manually again!!

This might be cruel but Im hoping the hacks take out the larger players, The workmanship of these low bidders is a key selling point for me.....they have to skimp somewhere & its in the cleanup!! Im thinking sooner or later both sides are gonna raise prices to standard or throw in the towel!! I just got to weather the storm!!!!



LXT................


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## HolmenTree (Mar 27, 2008)

The country is falling into a recession ,even here in Canada. Everyone is watching their money a little closer now. The customers with money are investing it because during a recession it is the time to invest when interest rates are way up.Which means less money going around for you and me.We just gotta tighten our belts for now things will get better.

Speaking of tough customers [don't mean to get anybody mad here] . I find school teachers and cops . [in order] are the biggest penny pinchers. My best customers are doctors and their spouses. Price is not an object to them. They just want it done right and they don't want someone unprofessional in their yard [what would their neighbors think if they did]. I did do some light tree removal [not aerial] for an old retired doctor once. In shock he said " $150 an hour . When I practiced I never charged that much!" I just replied "Yeah I charged less too when I used to practice". I still got the job.


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## 2FatGuys (Mar 27, 2008)

HolmenTree said:


> In shock he said " $150 an hour . When I practiced I never charged that much!" I just replied "Yeah I charged less too when I used to practice". I still got the job.



THAT's funny... I don't care who you are!


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## Grace Tree (Mar 27, 2008)

Teachers=Cheap. I couldn't agree more. The cheapest most demanding group of people I've ever met. I can't understand why. Around here they make decent $$ but certainly don't want to spend it. 
Phil


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 27, 2008)

*how do I even begin?*



lxt said:


> I agree faster might be better & make you more $$$, However when I had the 5 ton with grapple, the track skid steer, the track stumper....these Items would sit more than work!
> 
> 
> > So you no longer have a grapple, track steer or grinder? Is this why it takes you an entire day to do payroll? Seems to me payments on this equipment would be cheaper than hordes of full time laborers.
> ...


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## lxt (Mar 27, 2008)

The ones I like are the General Contractors building Spec. homes, their $5 an hr imported equipment operator bangs, nicks, breaks up the tree`s that are suppose to stay along with compacting the soil!!! so when the potential owners come to look & want the trees removed they(G.C) try to tell me what their gonna pay 

Gotta love it; I gots a 5 a trees 50-60ft tall & you a do em for $500.00 yeah?

Reply......LOL, Ahh No!! you needsa to break a free with more greenbacks, yeah? Boy they hate that, but they`ll get it done for cheap every time.

some of the wealthiest developers & their the cheapest you ever seen.


LXT..............


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## lxt (Mar 27, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> lxt said:
> 
> 
> > I agree faster might be better & make you more $$$, However when I had the 5 ton with grapple, the track skid steer, the track stumper....these Items would sit more than work!
> ...


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## lxt (Mar 27, 2008)

*Where do I begin*



Blakesmaster said:


> At the risk of having everyone on here hate me...
> 
> I'm an underbidder. Because I need to be. Because poorly paid work is better than no work at all.
> 
> ...



MMmmmmm..... focusing on work to avoid DUI`s, Groundman/climber in training!!! A proclaimed underbidder with no client base, 20 yrs combined exp., trim without spikes, can tackle ANY take down.......but yet you feel bad for who you underbid!!!

Where do I begin????? any take down? my man you have an entry level slightly above pickup truck tree service  why do you use the word *WE*? you are a grunt wanting to be a climber, all three of you put together have 20 whole years.....of what!!! I have underwear with more tree experience than that..LOL

BA in enviromental studies....whoo wee!!! that will come in handy when someone needs to know the effects their septic system is having on their grass/soil.........dont mean squat for Climbing!!!

you dont understand why I would take a day job & let my guys run the show? but yet you talk about your day jobs & low overhead.....why was it so hard for you to understand what I was trying to say?

Blake, you openly admit to underbidding, Ive read your Bio, I think you are a HACK.....no wait...Low balling groundie hack!! anyone who admits to working to avoid DUI`s is far from professional & trustworthy (now you understand why I let the toys go) Underbidding, DUI, groundie, who feels bad for us.. the guys who have to hire then fire people just like this!! your a joke!!

LXT.................


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## corndogg (Mar 27, 2008)

opcorn:


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 27, 2008)

Knew that would get a rise outta ya. LXT, you crack me up. For pages and pages you've been bashing the guys with day jobs trying to make yourself look like a big time operator than you turn around, act like 100k in equipment ( that you don't have anymore ) is big time and get a day job. You're a joke. $100k will barely cover 3 guys salaries for a year. You need a CDL to operate a stump grinder? Guess I should turn myself in. 

Like I said before, we are young and just getting started. I think sinking 20k debt free into a business in a year and a half is a damn good way to start. I have mainly been doing groundwork and am in training to climb but I have a lot of experience in felling and equipment operation. My partner has been climbing for the better part of 8 years doing plenty of take downs and trim work while our other partner has been in college. Though not directly related, an environmental degree will have it's benefits, not to mention he's the one that's been rec climbing for the past 10 years. 

Basically the point is that I'm still learning, I've had my indiscretions in the past and am moving on with my life, I'm turning my business legit and starting to expand instead of standing on my soapbox yelling "woe is me" at the top of my lungs.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 27, 2008)

Shouldn't this thread be on Arborist 101. It seems its just about part timers defending their actions against the pros . Take some advice from an old pro: Anybody who advertises in their signature that their work saws are 015,ms170,ms180,028 or an 018 [consumer saws] would never be a reputable full time tree service. I'd like to see your climbing and rigging gear. Yes weekend saws are for weekenders. As the old saying goes you can judge a good mechanic by his tools. :greenchainsaw:


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## CLEARVIEW TREE (Mar 27, 2008)

*No bashimg here please*

Hey bud don't judge a book by it's cover. If that's what they use to do there job, so be it man! You shouldn't say they are not reputable companies since they don't run pro saws. He may have an arsenal of hot saws and not had room to post it all. Think before you speak man. If you can't say anything nice don't at all here. Give em a break pal


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 28, 2008)

Right on, notice I took my Poulan 2150 off my sig, why? cause I am ashamed to own it. Well I traded for it, wait, thats no good either. I found it on the side of the road, thats it.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 28, 2008)

CLEARVIEW TREE said:


> Hey bud don't judge a book by it's cover. If that's what they use to do there job, so be it man! You shouldn't say they are not reputable companies since they don't run pro saws. He may have an arsenal of hot saws and not had room to post it all. Think before you speak man. If you can't say anything nice don't at all here. Give em a break pal



227 posts on this thread of back and forth bashing .Most of the posts here had nothing nice to say. Myself being a full time operator I side with the full timers. Too many part time guys hurting the tree care industry, raising workers comp and insurance costs every year. Too many part timers rigging down trees with unreliable consumer saws causing accidents, thats only part of it , if their saws are not efficient for the job then how about their climbing,rigging gear ? Probably not much better either.People's safety and not causing property damage revolves around proper equipment used on the jobsite.Why would you want it any other way.

I have never owned a consumer saw and for good reason ,I make my living with my saws. Part timers going on in this thread about everything they do is justifiable and calling the pros idiots. If I was a part timer and wanted to be full time one day ,I would learn to be as professional as I can. Have a professional image [that goes with how you think] Don't advertise consumer saws in the worksaw line up when you have just as many pro saws. Don't go on jabbering about how good your day job is but get a kick out of making it tough for the full timer.The only way a part timer can start to get professional is to show some respect towards the pros and learn from them.The guys who paid their dues.


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Knew that would get a rise outta ya. LXT, you crack me up. For pages and pages you've been bashing the guys with day jobs trying to make yourself look like a big time operator than you turn around, act like 100k in equipment ( that you don't have anymore ) is big time and get a day job. You're a joke. $100k will barely cover 3 guys salaries for a year. You need a CDL to operate a stump grinder? Guess I should turn myself in.
> 
> Like I said before, we are young and just getting started. I think sinking 20k debt free into a business in a year and a half is a damn good way to start. I have mainly been doing groundwork and am in training to climb but I have a lot of experience in felling and equipment operation. My partner has been climbing for the better part of 8 years doing plenty of take downs and trim work while our other partner has been in college. Though not directly related, an environmental degree will have it's benefits, not to mention he's the one that's been rec climbing for the past 10 years.
> 
> Basically the point is that I'm still learning, I've had my indiscretions in the past and am moving on with my life, I'm turning my business legit and starting to expand instead of standing on my soapbox yelling "woe is me" at the top of my lungs.




I havent bashed anybody as long as their legit, professional & bestow respect for others, you on the other hand are a tree trimmer wannabe FARSE!!

I never said I was big time!!! I am small potatoes compared to many, however I am legit, care for my Men & their families. I run my biz the best way I can so everyone prospers!!

I dont purposely underbid!! Yes when I had all the toys I needed drivers with a CDL.......you having no idea whats needed shows your in-experience, A skid steer & stump machine on the same trailer weigh a little more than 10,001lbs........can you say CDL, you run pickup trucks with a handful of saws, LOL

I bashed those with day jobs unrelated to tree care, I have other biz ventures in the works & didnt sell the equip. for the purposes of just giving it out in raises.

You let your mouth combined with stupidity overload your brains ability to rationalize & understand!! you bust on me saying 100k POS equip. having not a clue.............I could buy your little wannabe biz 5 times over!!!

I am puzzled by biz owners like you, 20k start a biz & then bad mouth & try to cutthroat the type of people who gave you a chance & helped train & get you interested in the first place.........

Get a rise outta me? Nah, you make me laugh. you are a self proclaimed underbidder, have been busted for *Driving Drunk* (reason CDL rules arent a priority for you), a groundie trimmer wannabe, pick up truck saw toting work a day job type that comes on here to try to find respect......

WELL guess what? I have none for people like you, I respect everyone in this trade but when some one like you spouts off claiming what you claim I just dont!! maybe its the fact you`re only 27, new to the field or whatever.

You have a long way to go, Ive read your questions/threads/posts & you are searching because you dont know (thats good). So dont open your mouth unless you really know something worth 2 craps.

When I need advice Blake I`ll be sure to start a thread asking for advice from Drunk Driving Groundmen who underbid!! Yeah you`re a real Pro!!


LXT..................


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

I want to take this opportunity to apologize for my part in the antics on this thread. I'm not here to make any enemies. I don't look at my sig or my profile as an "advertisement" for my business, it's simply who I am and what I have. More of a "this is me, maybe we have something in common." Those who choose to pick apart all the "less than awesome" parts of what I own and what I've done are simply looking to get a rise, like I did with LXT. Hopefully we can all try to be a bit more respectful of each other.


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

I agree!!

LXT..............


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## tree MDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I want to take this opportunity to apologize for my part in the antics on this thread. I'm not here to make any enemies. I don't look at my sig or my profile as an "advertisement" for my business, it's simply who I am and what I have. More of a "this is me, maybe we have something in common." Those who choose to pick apart all the "less than awesome" parts of what I own and what I've done are simply looking to get a rise, like I did with LXT. Hopefully we can all try to be a bit more respectful of each other.



Aww, don't quit now, it was just getting interesting.


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## masterarbor (Mar 28, 2008)

i'm #233 yeah!!!!!!!! :rockn:  :rockn:  :rockn:  :rockn:


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## HolmenTree (Mar 28, 2008)

lxt said:


> I agree!!
> 
> LXT..............



I second that ,lets put this thread to rest 

Willard


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Aww, don't quit now, it was just getting interesting.



No seriously, this is supposed to be an informative website. I thought about it today and was gonna come back and make a statement like I'd sell all my saws and trucks because downsizing is the key but that would just be childish, no?


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Aww, don't quit now, it was just getting interesting.




HA!! wanting more arent you?? LOL. Hey to each his own, the love of this trade can stir emotions thats for sure!!!


LXT......


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> No seriously, this is supposed to be an informative website. I thought about it today and was gonna come back and make a statement like I'd sell all my saws and trucks because downsizing is the key but that would just be childish, no?





for you that would be a going outta biz small yard sale!!!......JUST KIDDING!

Hey everyone starts somewhere, but knowing how to carry yourself & what to say/not say, etc... means alot on a pro level.

LXT.......


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## tree MDS (Mar 28, 2008)

*Stoke*



lxt said:


> for you that would be a going outta biz small yard sale!!!......JUST KIDDING!
> 
> Hey everyone starts somewhere, but knowing how to carry yourself & what to say/not say, etc... means alot on a pro level.
> 
> LXT.......



Nice! Stoke..stoke..


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

Actually I'm thinking of buying a 30 year old dump truck and a genie lift, then I can run with the big dogs!


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

*Whats forgotten*

Where I think most new biz`s get the wrong idea is in what they dont see in the field!!

I am fortunate enough that my Dad has a few acres where I can dump & compost chips along with areas just for wood, what most dont see is the time & equipment back at the yard.

you dump ump teen loads of chips you gotta push that stuff around, let alone rakings, small stubs, unwanted wood, etc... I have a little money tied up in yard machines that dont make me $$$$ but tidy up what I dump.

fuel & maint. on these machines counts sometimes just as much as whats used in the field, If I cant dump cause theres no room Im :censored: .

Just cause I know someone will ask; I have an international harvester 3120 loader with hoe, good small commercial sized machine...older unit but just rebuilt the motor, runs great!! & a john deere 440 crawler....needs a top end rebuild (doing this summer), without these 2 machines.....Id have a mountain of debris. so sometimes what happens behind the scenes is just as important as in the field.

hope this helps some understand whats involved when you reach a certain level & to go past that level puts you in a whole other bracket, I dont know if I was suppose to go to level so soon.

LXT.........


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Actually I'm thinking of buying a 30 year old dump truck and a genie lift, then I can run with the big dogs!



whats sad is you could only afford the 30 yr old dump!!!! shucks you forgot my 12 yr old chipper!! how many you had today?

Just my gear, saws, blocks, cumalongs, ropes, pruners, polesaws, spikes, books, reading material & the toilet paper I keep on the trucks costs more than your whole set up......LMFAO  

LXT......


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

My brother and I actually bought our first piece of land last year for the purpose of wood and chip disposal. Has a nice barn as well. That had been on our list of things to buy for quite some time and the only thing we actually hold a note on right now. Next is a tractor of sorts. Anyone push chips with a 4x4 tractor with a bucket? Does it work? I would personally rather a skid steer but a tractor seems a bit more versatile. Plus, a barn without a tractor just doesn't seem right IMO.


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## tree MDS (Mar 28, 2008)

lxt said:


> whats sad is you could only afford the 30 yr old dump!!!! shucks you forgot my 12 yr old chipper!! how many you had today?
> 
> Just my gear, saws, blocks, cumalongs, ropes, pruners, polesaws, spikes, books, reading material & the toilet paper I keep on the trucks costs more than your whole set up......LMFAO
> 
> LXT......



Thats the spirit!


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

lxt said:


> whats sad is you could only afford the 30 yr old dump!!!! shucks you forgot my 12 yr old chipper!! how many you had today?
> 
> Just my gear, saws, blocks, cumalongs, ropes, pruners, polesaws, spikes, books, reading material & the toilet paper I keep on the trucks costs more than your whole set up......LMFAO
> 
> LXT......



No need for more saws, I still got my trusty 018. Thinkin' of moddin' it out and slappin' a 36 inch bar on there.


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## tree MDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> My brother and I actually bought our first piece of land last year for the purpose of wood and chip disposal. Has a nice barn as well. That had been on our list of things to buy for quite some time and the only thing we actually hold a note on right now. Next is a tractor of sorts. Anyone push chips with a 4x4 tractor with a bucket? Does it work? I would personally rather a skid steer but a tractor seems a bit more versatile. Plus, a barn without a tractor just doesn't seem right IMO.


What I'm wondering is how long untill this all pisses of your boss??


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> What I'm wondering is how long untill this all pisses of your boss??



He doesn't know about it. Nor much of anything else. He's seen my climbing gear 'cause I use it at work but has no clue about the trucks, chipper, land, saws, or anything else. He doesn't know how to use a computer either!


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

You bust on a 30yr old dump completely restored???? you have a 70`s Chuk n dive outta the way chipper...C`mon a 96 & 94 trucks??? Im not gonna bust on your equipment......all the hacks down my way have a set up like yours!!

man I could of sold my toys & bought what??? 4 or 5 Chuck n dives, a whole fleet of mid 90`s model pickup trucks........whatta you guys think? would this be the way to go?

Like I said Blake I have other biz interests, the tree field is getting polluted I`ll stay in for the ride, but if it gets too bad...........theres always another pasture.

LXT........


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

lxt said:


> You bust on a 30yr old dump completely restored???? you have a 70`s Chuk n dive outta the way chipper...C`mon a 96 & 94 trucks??? Im not gonna bust on your equipment......all the hacks down my way have a set up like yours!!
> 
> man I could of sold my toys & bought what??? 4 or 5 Chuck n dives, a whole fleet of mid 90`s model pickup trucks........whatta you guys think? would this be the way to go?
> 
> ...




I've always been a fan of bowing out when things get tough, too! 

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm done.


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Thats the spirit!



Ahh, im just having fun, Blakes young & eager, thinks he can make a difference like we all once thought, wait till the tax man & need for employees, equipment, accountants, etc... come in to play.

Wait till him & his buddies have their first outting, or one of em thinks the other isnt carrying the load & they start underbidding one another or his boss fires him!! he`ll see............

I hope the above doesnt happen HONESTLY!! I went into biz years ago with 2 family members, we were like brothers.....it didnt last long, one wants paid more, one doesnt deserve this or that & pretty soon we all started bidding & using other people...went our seperate ways. to this day its still a sore spot.

Good Luck!!

LXT..............


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I've always been a fan of bowing out when things get tough, too!
> 
> I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm done.




you`re 27, what could you bow out from? wait till you have over 20yrs in & someone just like you shows up in your neighborhood, we`ll see how you re-act. Ive watched this field steadily go down hill & its the likes of guys like you that do it.

When you see your boss tell him what all you got & plan to do, Be a man!! why the nead to be so sneaky & secret.....cause you know what your doing, eves dropping on bids, gaining know how, etc... etc... I think you`re a sneaky, lowely, work stealing hack!!! TELL HIM & what will happen? by your post above we all know the answer................Your Fired!!!

I dont know guys!! this here is a lowely individual who has just showed his true colors!!! what would any of you do if you were in his boss`s shoes & found out what he just told us?


LXT............


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 28, 2008)

Yep, I'd probably get canned but he'd regret it. I'm the strongest, smartest, and hardest working man on his crew right now. I trade him my hours for a wage. What I do off the job is my business, not his. If he had a problem with how I worked while on his time I wouldn't have a job. But he has no complaints about that, nor should he.


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## reachtreeservi (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I want to take this opportunity to apologize for my part in the antics on this thread. I'm not here to make any enemies. I don't look at my sig or my profile as an "advertisement" for my business, it's simply who I am and what I have. More of a "this is me, maybe we have something in common." Those who choose to pick apart all the "less than awesome" parts of what I own and what I've done are simply looking to get a rise, like I did with LXT. Hopefully we can all try to be a bit more respectful of each other.





lxt said:


> I agree!!
> 
> LXT..............





tree MDS said:


> Thats the spirit!




 Let's all gather for the Group HUG ....


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## oldirty (Mar 28, 2008)

reachtreeservi said:


> Let's all gather for the Group HUG ....



you sure do love hugs...even if your a hard ass. lol



HUGS!!!!!!


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## lxt (Mar 28, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yep, I'd probably get canned but he'd regret it. I'm the strongest, smartest, and hardest working man on his crew right now. I trade him my hours for a wage. What I do off the job is my business, not his. If he had a problem with how I worked while on his time I wouldn't have a job. But he has no complaints about that, nor should he.




You are the strongest, smartest, hardest worker?? If so that is good! But what you do off the job most certaintly can be his biz!! loose your license, wreck Co. vehicle after a night of token up....this will surely become his business. Bidding against your boss & taking work from him & other Co-workers is his biz too, If you can do all you say you can & have all you say you have why not go out on your own?

To go to work every day with thought in mind of an employee bidding against me....Fired, I dont care how hard working, smart or good you are, thats wrong!! You arent there to learn anything but how a biz runs & to gain bidding insight & underbid him to establish the clientel base you dont have but need!!

I can only hope you do grow & someone just like you does the same to you in the same shrewd, ignorant, sneaky, underhanded manner!!! you & your buddies arent a business.....your thieves, stealing knowledge & know how to end by screwing over the man who gave you a shot!!!

MAN UP & do it on your own!!! you & yours are the worst types, Others & myself might not have the big time operation & might take 2 steps back to move 1 forward, But I never did what you are doing to anybody!!

Id give him a group hug right through a chipper!! some one tell me he`s not a lowely, thieving HACK..........who of us would hire someone like him? seriously!!!!!


LXT............


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## tree MDS (Mar 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> you sure do love hugs...even if your a hard ass. lol
> 
> 
> 
> HUGS!!!!!!



Classic!!


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## tree MDS (Mar 28, 2008)

lxt said:


> You are the strongest, smartest, hardest worker?? If so that is good! But what you do off the job most certaintly can be his biz!! loose your license, wreck Co. vehicle after a night of token up....this will surely become his business. Bidding against your boss & taking work from him & other Co-workers is his biz too, If you can do all you say you can & have all you say you have why not go out on your own?
> 
> To go to work every day with thought in mind of an employee bidding against me....Fired, I dont care how hard working, smart or good you are, thats wrong!! You arent there to learn anything but how a biz runs & to gain bidding insight & underbid him to establish the clientel base you dont have but need!!
> 
> ...


Dishonesty is a sign of guilt and the acknowledgment thereof. Seriously, I'd chip his a$$ too, sorry "Blakemaster", its just right.


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## reachtreeservi (Mar 28, 2008)

oldirty said:


> you sure do love hugs...even if your a hard ass. lol
> 
> 
> 
> HUGS!!!!!!




Always remember, You can't hug a child with nuclear arms.


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## masterarbor (Mar 28, 2008)

goodness gracious, this thread belongs in the petty forum


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## chucknduck (Mar 28, 2008)

Here's what I would do if I were you, blake. I would wait till the season hits(coming up quick), then just quit your job and try to go out on your own. This way if you realize that its harder than you thought, and you have to throw in the towel, your old boss might still hire you back, cause he knows your a good worker. But, if you wait till he fires you, then your ARE on your own. Also, IXT is right about the accounting, it will cost more than you know. I am lucky enough to have a family member do my accounting, but if you do pay your taxes, you will be surprised at the headache that keeping track of every reciept, logging every mile, etc. will be for your business. I would just use what you've got till you can afford a dump truck that is 5-6 years old. then you won't have to play mechanic every day like I do with my 80's era chipper, and 1999 grapple truck! You can do it, Im only 23, so your not the youngest guy trying to go out on his own.. I would'nt underbid your boss ever.. just try to get jobs that he's not bidding on.


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## Blakesmaster (Mar 29, 2008)

Like I said before, I walk away from jobs that my boss has bid. It's only come up once but I would walk away again. Don't know where those accusations came from. My dump truck, though 12 years old is still a darn good runner and without problem. Like I said before, I'll step out when the work is there but not before. There's being a "man" and there's being stupid. We'll see what happens in August when the ad hits the pages.


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## treemandan (Mar 30, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> goodness gracious, this thread belongs in the petty forum



Did the guys have a good week of getting crushed by the chuck and duck? BAAHAA!. Take it easy, I thought they were cool to, and they are, they certainly are.
Anyway this little bicker between blake and ixt is really not petty, in fact it can be taken as the root of the proposed problem, which is -WHY IS AALLHS US GETTIN BEAT OUT BY DA NEW GUY?! 
Listen, I got to be honest. Who needs another tree guy? I don't think the public really does and, are reluctant to spend. They want cheap cause cheap is cool and not to steep but best of all cheap is cheap. Few and far are those who pay with honest appreciation, unless they know it the best price.
But then it seems Mr Blakesmaster has such a lovely and wonderful little oppurtunity- don't it? By the way, sir, I would definatly talk to the guy who learned me before I set up shop in his world, you better believe that! Unless we are talking about a prick.
I guess I grew into my business, which is nothing more than me and some contract labor for my work and some work I do for other companies. Often I bid against others I know, actually everyday, aside from the clients I have allready won. Stay in long enough to win enough clients,and be able to keep them; well there you go. 
It is going to be tough with so much new competition, the economy, and the fact that you had better be spectacular; if they can get the lawn boys to hack it they will. You hound the rich like Bartlett? You might get somewhere. Anyone else ain't got the time and sure as hell don't want to spend a dime. 
I ran the ads for the year to see what was out there and wanted the equipment. I wanted it in my lot! This was after 17 years of working for every YOUR NAME HERE Tree Service. Only thing they served was the name on the truck. After the year of ads i didn't want to see what was out there, I wanted it to stop calling me.
One thing for sure, no matter how cool you are, you are going to have to to slick and you are going to have to be sneaky. After all, its a MASTERPLAN. Good luck and yeefnhaa.
So, Ixt you got much validity with your vast skill and longevity but you do know the oppositions are allowed. Personally, I am sick of bidding against you. I am sick of looking like another Tree Capitist Pig to the eyes of the next person who gets my number out off the yellow pages. " Sure the guy before me could do it for half but he is in jail right now". 
These newer business's with their claims of having a "different approach" must be talking bout sombtin I don't get.The recipe for sucess does vary in this business, as with all, but I could list a few and we would all flinch and bow our heads. If you don't think so, that is probably why I quit.
Before I bought the chipper and trucks I tried to buy out the welder shop down in town. I even offered an apprentice deal, it wasn't for the money, just for the assetts at the time.He had allready made a deal with the head shop next door, cylinder head shop. he worked there alone.
I figured I could always get work, well, cause I can and it would be a good long term investment. My business is just a cash flow stragtegy that sustains a level of income, for me! Legal is good; right? Whatever. Never has there really ever been no lettuce in my check salad under the employ of Joe Schmo Tree Care. Brutal bastards and dangerous to boot some can be.
Who is the nice tree guy around here? Who here has a 100% legit history of fine arboricultural integrity? Who can pay me enough so I can pay my mortgage? Hey, what do you think fits the bill? 
What those guys were talking about with the ' Brotherhood' thread in the business forum seems to be a nice idea but what it really comes down to is a viable means to put legit cash on the table. 
One thing for sure, I operate with clear conscience for the fact that what I know about my trade I learned by myself for myself and never would I set up dojo in my sensay's village, that is if i had i sensay, sure could use one now. For crying out loud these tree guys have thier signs up everywhere!


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## lxt (Mar 30, 2008)

treemandan said:


> So, Ixt you got much validity with your vast skill and longevity but you do know the oppositions are allowed. Personally, I am sick of bidding against you. I am sick of looking like another Tree Capitist Pig to the eyes of the next person who gets my number out off the yellow pages. " Sure the guy before me could do it for half but he is in jail right now".
> 
> For crying out loud these tree guys have thier signs up everywhere!




Validity??? Vast skill & longevity???? this I guess would depend on who you talk to, I just do the best I can!!

Sick of bidding against me??? I doubt you do! unless you`re bidding in the beaver county area, If so I am bidding against you, after all I live there!!



LXT................


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 30, 2008)

Blakesmaster;969755 There's being a "man" and there's being stupid.[/QUOTE said:


> Funny, my buddy Nitro always tells me, "you're a stupid, stupid man." I must be a hybrid. lol


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## treemandan (Mar 30, 2008)

lxt said:


> Validity??? Vast skill & longevity???? this I guess would depend on who you talk to, I just do the best I can!!
> 
> Sick of bidding against me??? I doubt you do! unless you`re bidding in the beaver county area, If so I am bidding against you, after all I live there!!
> 
> ...



Yeah, sure, validity. 30 odd years either working or running your own. I bid against guys like you as a new company. My business plan might not be as stringent as some but I am realistic. I try hard not to come off like a new guy saying he is cheaper and better or bashing other guys, even when they deserve it. 
I have not been in Beaver co since I was like 17, over 20 years ago but your area is much like mine with a lot of new hotshots who WILL go cheap on the stuff that ain't. 
I have worked with lots of older guys who had thier name on the truck, some who scary and some were guys who had been in biz a long time to develope what they needed. All had the same problems, which of course is evident, but their competition came from their employees. 
To this day I still cannot figure out how one man can run a tree company. i guess there was a reason why his guys started their own little gigs. I am speaking in general when I say his.


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## HolmenTree (Mar 30, 2008)

:jester:

And my groundie [ my only employee ] wants me to buy him a $650 Arbor Master Training climbing skills course. Not.


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## highclimber47 (Apr 6, 2008)

*lOW BIDS*

The bitterness of poor quality work lasts longer than the sweetness of cheap work......

Maybe try to follow up on the bids you lost to the low ballers, and see if this rings true. Maybe you could turn a lost customer into a client after the fact.


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## KiwiTreeSteve (Apr 27, 2008)

lxt said:


> Now its 10 years a far cry from 30, If I counted going out with dad....hell Id have a ton more time to add to my bio. too.
> 
> you chose door #2 because it paid the bills......then stick with that nothing wrong with being an architect (sounds important) you gave up on tree work & now find the need to infiltrate the field pickin & choosing (no doubt easy stuff) while leaving others & myself with all the nice ones!!! cause I highly doubt you & your boys are doing many big ones with your 3 days of tree time.
> 
> ...




Respect!


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## CLEARVIEW TREE (Apr 27, 2008)

Plain and simply put, there's plenty of work out there for everyone! We just gotta be sportsmanlike stewards of our trade ya know.opcorn:


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## tree MDS (Apr 27, 2008)

Ahh, back to lowballers- heres one: I get a call from a landscaper friend of mine, he wants me to look at a massive red oak in his front yard, over primary lines and with service and phone lines going into the house, beutiful tree, the acorns bother him so he wants it cut down, there is a smaller red maple he wants cut too. wood stays cut, oak is probably about 48-50" diameter, I just screwed up a bid on one for 1200, wood stays, chips stay, still took me 10 hours, so even though he gets me a little work I told him 3000 dollars for the oak and 600 for the maple-then I did'nt hear back and I thought, maybe too high so I call and leave a message to call me basically saying I think I can do better and dont hear back. Friday I hear from another friend that he had it done (the oak anyway far as I know) for 1500by this [email protected]#$# with a 25 ton crane, a gaint storm chaser log truck thingy, 75' highranger, track machine with grapple, 18 or 20" morbark, 300 horse international dump, carlton track chipper 80 horse, fancy 50k pickup and more!! Now c'mon !! What a loser, this isnt the first time, hes allways half price! I cant figure this loser out, talk about underbiding!! Guy sucks too, kind of like a nosak deal, no licence, a real tough guy, I hear he shoots himself in the ass with roids too, lol. Any of you guys want this gem?? ya can have him!!... Oh, and all that stuffs pretty new too,like within 3 years , nice competion eh??


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## hornett224 (Apr 28, 2008)

*sounds like he makes less on each job ...........*

but has more jobs. gotta buy them roids.


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## tree MDS (Apr 28, 2008)

hornett224 said:


> but has more jobs. gotta buy them roids.



Yeah, amongst other things, lol.


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## Blakesmaster (Apr 30, 2008)

All right guys. I went to bid a job last night; huge willow, 6 ft dbh, 8/9 two and a half foot leads, 100 yard uphill drag for brush and wood, but it was a simple climb and cut, barely any roping. Mostly grunt work. I give my price, a very reasonable one and the guy says someone already gave him a quote that was half of that. I smiled, said, "make sure they're insured" and hit the road. I still can't believe anyone would bid it that low. Granted, it was a b***h of a job that I didn't really want but I still felt my price was more than fair and now that I've been underbid I kinda feel your pain.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE (Apr 30, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Ahh, back to lowballers- heres one: I get a call from a landscaper friend of mine, he wants me to look at a massive red oak in his front yard, over primary lines and with service and phone lines going into the house, beutiful tree, the acorns bother him so he wants it cut down, there is a smaller red maple he wants cut too. wood stays cut, oak is probably about 48-50" diameter, I just screwed up a bid on one for 1200, wood stays, chips stay, still took me 10 hours, so even though he gets me a little work I told him 3000 dollars for the oak and 600 for the maple-then I did'nt hear back and I thought, maybe too high so I call and leave a message to call me basically saying I think I can do better and dont hear back. Friday I hear from another friend that he had it done (the oak anyway far as I know) for 1500by this [email protected]#$# with a 25 ton crane, a gaint storm chaser log truck thingy, 75' highranger, track machine with grapple, 18 or 20" morbark, 300 horse international dump, carlton track chipper 80 horse, fancy 50k pickup and more!! Now c'mon !! What a loser, this isnt the first time, hes allways half price! I cant figure this loser out, talk about underbiding!! Guy sucks too, kind of like a nosak deal, no licence, a real tough guy, I hear he shoots himself in the ass with roids too, lol. Any of you guys want this gem?? ya can have him!!... Oh, and all that stuffs pretty new too,like within 3 years , nice competion eh??


 That guy will not be in biz long! If he's cuttin his own throat by doin free work, how can he pay for it all? He is not going to pay it off that way anytime soon! Make s me wish that tree prices were similar to auto repair at the dealership! Charge an honest, large flat rate, hope for the best and get it done in half the time allowed and still get payed for the projected full proposed time! Now that would be sweet!:monkey:


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## Slvrmple72 (May 1, 2008)

Bid a Pin Oak behind the house, over the power, over the garage, with a tight drop zone, 32" DBH, 4 leads, all rigging, stump ground, chips cleared for 1125. Homeowner says local outfit bid 875 and wanted to know if I would match or even lower my price! I said I would do it for 1075 but would leave the chips from the stump grinding! I hate shoveling out chips from a stump hole! Homeowners never realize what they are in for and I when I itemize the prices for a job they don't want to pay to have the hole cleaned out. Then they whine and insist that I clean up the mess. Sorry, that'll be extra!


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## TDunk (May 1, 2008)

Knock on wood i haven't had to many probs. this year with people underbidding me. I've had a couple H.O.'s ask me if i could do it any cheaper/or what i could not do to make it cheaper. But so far it's been a decent year for this part-time "super trimmer". I do have to get something off my chest though. When i started this thread i was pi$$ed. I haven't been doing tree work that long (trying to make a good name for myself) and when i heard that another local "part-timer" had been running his mouth about me i lost it and started this thread. After i cooled down i called him and told him what i heard....... blah blah blah. Had a nice conversation. Well it turns out he wasn't the one that was doing the underbidding. I hate small town B.S.


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## nytreeman (May 1, 2008)

I get low balled at times,but I admit sometimes if I know the person has had a lot of bids I will just ask whats the best and if I can do it cheaper I'll price it that way if not I just tell them I can't beat it,like I tell them I'm not the most expensive but I'm not the cheapest either I have to make money but try to be fair and I do good work,but it's really amazing how low some will go to get work,then do a crappy half azz job because there not making anything,the way I look at it is if you know going out to do jobs that your going to lose money on day after day, why bother??


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