# I market for leads get 15-20 a day. I want to learn how to sell the job, training



## gpstrade (Aug 24, 2011)

I market for a tree company to get leads, I average 15-20 leads a day. I have been asking for a while for them to teach me how to sell the job. They will not,

Is on the job training the only way to learn how to price a job. I have been searching the internet trying to find training course for this part of the business. I am in the Maryland area. If someone can help me please respond. my email:
[email protected]


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 24, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> I market for a tree company to get leads, I average 15-20 leads a day. I have been asking for a while for them to teach me how to sell the job. They will not,
> 
> Is on the job training the only way to learn how to price a job. I have been searching the internet trying to find training course for this part of the business. I am in the Maryland area. If someone can help me please respond. my email:
> [email protected]


 
Dude, You need to have climbed and pay your dues to price a job. You market guy's got to have a 'go to guy' or go climb a tree,
. Your crew is what you are selling and you have no idea what they go thru to do what you sold. I could go on,
Jeff


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## gpstrade (Aug 25, 2011)

Dude I was going to write you a post but your not worth it


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## ozzy42 (Aug 25, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> Dude I was going to write you a post but your not worth it


 
And what would that post be?You going to disagree with him when you know nothing of the subject?

What Jeff told you is absolutely correct.You can not possibly bid tree work if you do not know how it's done.
There is a reason you drew a blank when you googeld it.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 25, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> Dude I was going to write you a post but your not worth it


 
No need, I've heard it before from salesmen that don't know what they sell!
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 25, 2011)

BTW, I am worth it.
Jeff


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## Rftreeman (Aug 25, 2011)

Just charge by the inch of the diameter, let's say $2 an inch, yeah, that should be good.....


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## treemandan (Aug 26, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> BTW, I am worth it.
> Jeff


 


We know Jeff, we know. Did that yackass get you all upset? Now now, take it easy, don't shoot him, wait til he gets a littl closer.


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## treemandan (Aug 26, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> BTW, I am worth it.
> Jeff


 
Seriously, WTF!? You sound like a Maybeline commercial !


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 26, 2011)

Hopefully I am chasing off trolls.
Jeff


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## David (saltas) (Aug 26, 2011)

You cant sell what you cant do, without the can do guy getting screwed


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## ctrees4$ (Aug 26, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> I market for a tree company to get leads, I average 15-20 leads a day. I have been asking for a while for them to teach me how to sell the job. They will not,
> 
> Is on the job training the only way to learn how to price a job. I have been searching the internet trying to find training course for this part of the business. I am in the Maryland area. If someone can help me please respond. my email:
> [email protected]


 
My price per job is built around my experience,overhead,and how long it will take to finish....sooooo I think a good price you should start with would be around 0.00 an hour. :Eye::Eye:


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## atvguns (Aug 26, 2011)

The OP is looking a little red right now


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## flushcut (Aug 27, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> Is on the job training the only way to learn how to price a job.


 
Yes, but it is a hell of a lot more. You can get OJT but YOU NEED to do the work to full understand what it takes. Personally I would never consider a sales person who has no real world experience. So pick up some gear and get to the learning as you have a long way to go.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 27, 2011)

The best salesman has had saw dust in his eye's from taking down trees on a windy day. The best salesman knows what it is like to handle a 3120 off the ground. The best salesman knows what is like to do complicated rigging over targets. The really good salesman knows to ask for advice from his "Op's Manager' before submitting a bid.
Jeff :


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## 046 (Aug 27, 2011)

since this started with a legitimate looking question ... will try to explain why folks are responding the way they are. 

it's been posted before ... here goes again. 

1. there is nothing wrong with ignorance. we all had to start somewhere. 
2. nobody likes stupid 

it's never wrong to ask legit questions if you don't know. it's a catch 22 if you don't know what's a legit question from a stupid one. so grow some thick skin if you want to stick around AS. Some of the most knowledgeable tree folks on the WWW are here. 

so far I don't see anything stupid in your post, just ignorance of why it's not possible for a newbie to quote jobs. 

sorry all a newbie sales guy and can do is sell the company in general. then set up a time for the foreman to give actual estimate. 

there's many factors in tree work that can effect the time/gear/manpower necessary to complete a job. then factor in liability/risk if something goes wrong. 

two similar size trees, one next to a house, other tree out in the open will be completely different in amount of time to complete. the tree next to house will probably need to be roped down piece by piece to prevent possibility of damage to house. tree out in open is felled in one piece. 

then factor in what type equipment crew is running. a bucket gets the job done quicker, but costs to purchase/maintenance/insurance for major gear is not free. some jobs are not possible to do safely without a crane...etc, etc, etc, 

the list goes on ... it's just not possible for a newbie to estimate jobs. even experienced tree folks will estimate wrong and end up doing a job for a net profit of zero $$ or worst go in the hole finishing up a job. 

if you really want to learn... go drag brush for a week just to get a taste to see if you really want to proceed. 



gpstrade said:


> I market for a tree company to get leads, I average 15-20 leads a day. I have been asking for a while for them to teach me how to sell the job. They will not,
> 
> Is on the job training the only way to learn how to price a job. I have been searching the internet trying to find training course for this part of the business. I am in the Maryland area. If someone can help me please respond. my email:
> [email protected]


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 28, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> The best salesman has had saw dust in his eye's from taking down trees on a windy day. The best salesman knows what it is like to handle a 3120 off the ground. The best salesman knows what is like to do complicated rigging over targets. The really good salesman knows to ask for advice from his "Op's Manager' before submitting a bid.
> Jeff :


 
So that's what you will have me do when I get there! Sales hmmmmmmmmmm. Sounds good. I don't know a 3120, but I do know a MS650! 
BTW, u ever hook up with Mikey G at Brickman?

On a serious note, you have to know what you are looking at before you can bid. If you cannot recognize the hazards and do not know how to mitigate them, then you will always loose. Whether you get the job or not.


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## imagineero (Aug 29, 2011)

Bidding jobs really isn't all that hard to be honest, and I find that guys with a sales/estimating background do better at it than tree guys. To cut down trees you need to be good at cutting down trees. To sell tree work you need to be good at selling. Lots of awesome tree guys are hopeless salesmen and drastically underestimate the amount of time they need to complete a job.

To put realistic bids on jobs you need to know some base costs for your operation. It starts with what gear and employees you have, insurance etc. For myself, I'm a small time operator with a mid size truck and small crew. I set my base rate at $90 an hour for myself, my gear and my truck, plus $25/hour for every guy on my crew. If I go out with 3 guys then my base rate is $165/hr. I charge $250/hr for chipping but I can chip most jobs in an hour or 2 at most. I do residential work in the city so most trees I'm dealing with aren't that big. A full day job for me needs to come out at 8hrs x $165 + 1 hr chipping @ $250 = $1570. A more realistic charge for me for a full day job is $1700. 

You then need to factor in where you will lose time. I start out with 1 hour allowance for unpacking and packing gear, setup etc. I add half an hour for cleaup. I add extra for all the following reasons plus many more;

the job is far from the street (extra crew)
the passageway is narrow (the tree needs to be cut up smaller)
there is delicate paintwork, brick work, stone work (smaller pieces, more crew)
there are powerlines around
It's a big tree - add extra crew
It's more than 13m3 of chip - I need to do an extra load in my truck
The trunk size is over 24" - I need to do more ripping
It's a technical tree
It's a species I don't like to cut
It will need a lot of lowering
There are stairs
I need to hire extra equipment (EWP, crane)

For smaller jobs I price them according to what portion of a day I think they will take, allowing for travel and setup/packup and cleanup. If I dont think I can get another job in the area then I price 
it as a full day. 

My basic approach to most jobs is to pace out the distance form the street to the tree, measure the DBH height and spread, then make an estimate of how many cubic metres of chip there will be. I then look at what the ground is like around the tree (lawn, pavers, concrete?) and what else is under the tree (driveway, shed, house, precious garden, fence, footpath, road, powerlines). Then I look at the conditions of the path to the street (width, surface material, stairs) and make a note of all these things. I add up how many hours I'll need to chip and how many crew I'll need. Then I add in setup, packup, cleanup and travel and come up with a number. If I feel that number is light I add to it. Those jobs are cream. Then I sell that number to the customer.

For an inexperienced guy, the hardest thing is working out how many days a tree will take to climb. If you have a top climber on your crew then he can probably take down almost anything in a day. You'll get an eye pretty quick for 'one day or two'. The finer details of the takedown can be worked out by the crew. Jobs with a few trees end up being more cream. Jobs with lots of trees end up being underbid by every idiot out there and aren't worth doing. Pruning is a hard sell and always ends up taking more time than what you think. Not many customers are happy with what they get on a prune, and most prunes need to start at the $500 range and go up from there. It's easy to make money on removals and lose money on prunes.

Shaun


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## swede11 (Aug 29, 2011)

imagineero said:


> Lots of awesome tree guys are hopeless salesmen and drastically underestimate the amount of time they need to complete a job.
> 
> .
> 
> Shaun


 
That surprises me, but I'll take your word. I can fathom not being a great salesman; the other part makes me say hhmmm.

Anyways, your post was very helpful, thorough & detailed. One of my weak points is knowing how much to charge. But on the other hand, I don't really need to know any time soon, plenty of other **** to learn.


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## TreeClimber57 (Aug 30, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> Just charge by the inch of the diameter, let's say $2 an inch, yeah, that should be good.....


 
I did know a company who used to price by the inch - maybe they still do. 

They had it something like $20 or $30 per inch up to certain DBH.. then went higher.. 

It apparently worked most of the time - so they said; and saved them money on estimates. Frankly I think you would overprice a lot of smaller jobs and get &*#[email protected] on others.

There are too many factors involved to go on simply diameter. 

Realistically I do not know what business one can really do the most accurate estimate if they do not know how to do the job themselves.. and have not lived it. I guess maybe laying asphalt in driveway or roofing maybe can do by sq ft.. but even then I expect there are exceptions to the rule.


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## TreeClimber57 (Aug 30, 2011)

swede11 said:


> That surprises me, but I'll take your word. I can fathom not being a great salesman; the other part makes me say hhmmm.
> 
> Anyways, your post was very helpful, thorough & detailed. One of my weak points is knowing how much to charge. But on the other hand, I don't really need to know any time soon, plenty of other **** to learn.


 
Does not surprise me.. guys who are good salesmen can learn the ropes on tree pricing. Yes they will miss some when learning; having them sit and observe a few jobs is good idea though. Learning the true time involved - as cleanup time is often the part missed when bidding is off. Does not take long to get on ground at times; but you can spend as long or longer cleaning up the mess.


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## imagineero (Sep 1, 2011)

swede11 said:


> That surprises me, but I'll take your word. I can fathom not being a great salesman; the other part makes me say hhmmm.


 
It shouldn't really come as too much of a surprise. In any trade you'll find plenty of people who are excellent craftsman, passionate and skillful, but lacking in the business sense department. They do great working for business minded people who know how to operate and price a service, but poorly when they try to run their own show. 

I'm not sure whether its just a little vanity, a little lack of estimating skills or what, but plenty of tree climbers do come up short on estimated times. They focus on the tree, and how long they'll be in there, but often fail to account for travel to and from site, packing up and unpacking of gear, sharpening saws, dumping chip, yard cleanup etc. You have to make some allowance for these. I figure most companies have got about 2 hours in most jobs before a saw even touches wood with all the above factored in, maybe more.

This isn't just young tree climbers I'm talking about either, plenty of older guys are guilty of it. "that'll only take me an hour to get done". People who come from an estimating background generally take a rational approach to quoting - some sort of formula for factoring in volumes of materials, distance to carry, travel time, and make allowances for their base costs. How you arrive at the number isn't so important as having a rational system for getting to it. The old 'gut feeling' can be pretty far off sometimes.

Of course, it's a competitive marketplace. What number you come up with doesn't mean jack if you have to match other peoples prices to win work. At least it will let you know whether you're making or losing money though! I try to work with other tree guys in my area so we are all charging fair prices pretty close to each other. Most other trades do this - mechanics, electricians, plumbers. It makes sense for the industry, and when you can make an honest dollar you can afford to do professional work for your customers and not cut corners, hurt yourself or go broke. A good situation for both customers and business.


Shaun


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## a_lopa (Sep 1, 2011)

$100 per foot


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## gpstrade (Sep 7, 2011)

Shau
Thanks for all the insight and helping out. Forums were designed to help each other out not to post nasty things.
I have 3 friends who started in the business 5 years ago with the same tree company. they where mangers/ salesmen in other industries. Now All 3 own their own business and have 3-5 crews running with 3-5 men in each crew. They knew nothing about climbing a tree, they hired the right people for that. I just started working for one this week. 5 man crew does $2400 day and 3 man crew does $1500 day. I have not sold yet, still just providing leads. I am going out watching the crews work for now and taking videos to learn.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 7, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> Shau
> Thanks for all the insight and helping out. Forums were designed to help each other out not to post nasty things.
> I have 3 friends who started in the business 5 years ago with the same tree company. they where mangers/ salesmen in other industries. Now All 3 own their own business and have 3-5 crews running with 3-5 men in each crew. They knew nothing about climbing a tree, they hired the right people for that. I just started working for one this week. 5 man crew does $2400 day and 3 man crew does $1500 day. I have not sold yet, still just providing leads. I am going out watching the crews work for now and taking videos to learn.


be sure to post the videos cause we all know it doesn't happen without the videos & pictures.........


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## no tree to big (Sep 7, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> Shau
> Thanks for all the insight and helping out. Forums were designed to help each other out not to post nasty things.
> I have 3 friends who started in the business 5 years ago with the same tree company. they where mangers/ salesmen in other industries. Now All 3 own their own business and have 3-5 crews running with 3-5 men in each crew. They knew nothing about climbing a tree, they hired the right people for that. I just started working for one this week. 5 man crew does $2400 day and 3 man crew does $1500 day. I have not sold yet, still just providing leads. I am going out watching the crews work for now and taking videos to learn.


 
is thats so? maybe you sould just make a movie and sell it instead of starting a career as an estimator take the easy way through life...I'd by it on dvd, 2500 5 guys? sounds like someone on that crew needs to work harder!!! with 4 we have done 5000 minimum every day since mid march, we are on track for a badass bonus this year!, and our solid 3 man crew does like 3500 and our "rookie" crew does about 2500


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## ChippersTreeSvc (Sep 8, 2011)

no tree to big said:


> is thats so? maybe you sould just make a movie and sell it instead of starting a career as an estimator take the easy way through life...I'd by it on dvd, 2500 5 guys? sounds like someone on that crew needs to work harder!!! with 4 we have done 5000 minimum every day since mid march, we are on track for a badass bonus this year!, and our solid 3 man crew does like 3500 and our "rookie" crew does about 2500


 
Damn, you guys are getting paid well.


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## gpstrade (Sep 8, 2011)

*3 years ago the same $2500 day was around 4k.*

$2500 day is the average for 8-hour day with $1100 in expenses, wish we could charge more here per job but we have a company here if you bid $2000 they come in around $1300. They are killing the market here. They follow no rules; hire cheap immigrants pay no taxes, ect. They have D- rating with BBB. 

I hear 3 years ago the same $2500 day was around 4k.


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## no tree to big (Sep 8, 2011)

gpstrade said:


> $2500 day is the average for 8-hour day with $1100 in expenses, wish we could charge more here per job but we have a company here if you bid $2000 they come in around $1300. They are killing the market here. They follow no rules; hire cheap immigrants pay no taxes, ect. They have D- rating with BBB.
> 
> I hear 3 years ago the same $2500 day was around 4k.


 
thats everywhere my friend you need to build a good reputaion for good work and never on any job slip up. within a 1/2 hour of me there are probably 10-15 of those lowballin immigrant co's out there but we still pull big money because we are good


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## abishiai (Sep 10, 2011)

*Leads*

Anyone who is generating 10-15 leads per day is worth talking to! What are you using to generate your leads? That's what I want to know!!


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## newsawtooth (Sep 10, 2011)

no tree to big said:


> but we still pull big money because we are good


 
I hear this everywhere. What do you mean you are good? Good how? You didn't break anything and can rake really well? Because that is all anyone sees really. Never underestimate the markets willingness to pay handsomely for sub-standard tree care. Another of my favorites is; "We do the trees no one else will touch". Who operates under that illusion? Definitely no one that lives in a competitive market with dozens of able competitors. 

To the OP: In many ways estimating is the most difficult part of the job. Bid too high and you won't have any work, too low and you won't survive. This sounds obvious because it is. But how do you bridge the gulf between the two consistently?


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## Grace Tree (Sep 10, 2011)

newsawtooth said:


> Another of my favorites is; "We do the trees no one else will touch". Who operates under that illusion? Definitely no one that lives in a competitive market with dozens of able competitors.


Man is that ever the truth. Almost every company around here owns a crane and they're obsessed with keeping them working whether they need them or not. You'd have to look long and hard to find a tree that "no one else will touch".

Phil


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