# Oh boy, this ain't good, MS441



## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

I come home and found this 441 on my doorstep tonight. The guy had called me and said he thought it was cooked and wanted it fixed. 

Didnt expect it to be this bad, the saw aint really that old. This quick look is all I gave it tonight, just never paid that much attention to these and thought you guys might have some suggestions to look at before I tear it down. I will do a pressure/vac test on it before tear down but a quick look showed the H needle just about tight on the lean side of the limiter and I'm betting that was the problem. 

Sorry for the bad picture, I never said I was good at taking them. Oh and I thought they fixed the air filters on these newer ones?


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## sawfun9 (Dec 3, 2012)

Ouch, just ouch.

Maybe someone can educate the user of that saw a bit about carb adjustments.


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## mdavlee (Dec 3, 2012)

I would say lack of maintenance and then carb adjustments killed that one.


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## naturelover (Dec 3, 2012)

Shoulda paid that little bit extra ()or the C on the end... 

Strange place ()or sawdust to collect there right under the ()ilter base, should be sealed there, one reason I grease my ()ilters..

Speaking o(), thats some ()ine dust there too...


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## cutforfun (Dec 3, 2012)

naturelover said:


> Shoulda paid that little bit extra ()or the C on the end...
> 
> Strange place ()or sawdust to collect there right under the ()ilter base, should be sealed there, one reason I grease my ()ilters..
> 
> Speaking o(), thats some ()ine dust there too...





You need to get your ()-ing key board fixed:hmm3grin2orange:


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## LowVolt (Dec 3, 2012)

If you need one, I have a good used piston and cylinder I would be willing to sell. Let me know if you need any other parts too, I have a few. :msp_thumbup:


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## naturelover (Dec 3, 2012)

HAHAHA!!!

I know, I know....

Have to wait ()or Santa to bring me a new laptop... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I would say lack of maintenance and then carb adjustments killed that one.





What lack of maintenance you seeing that killed it? Far as I know the dealer set this saw up and adjusted it. 




LowVolt said:


> If you need one, I have a good used piston and cylinder I would be willing to sell. Let me know if you need any other parts too, I have a few. :msp_thumbup:



Thanks alot, we will see but I'm guessing he will want new oem.


Just looking to see if there is anything out of the ordinary to look for when tearing it down.


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## mdavlee (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> What lack of maintenance you seeing that killed it? Far as I know the dealer set this saw up and adjusted it.
> 
> Thanks alot, we will see but I'm guessing he will want new oem.
> 
> ...



Well the dust past the air filter. The 441 is very similar to husky so unless they never thought to tap the dust out of the filter they should have seen the dust. The carb settings may very well have been straight from the dealer.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Well the dust past the air filter. The 441 is very similar to husky so unless they never thought to tap the dust out of the filter they should have seen the dust. The carb settings may very well have been straight from the dealer.



Well I wont argue about the filter but it was really not that dirty when I took it off. No matter though, that dust didn't melt it down and kill it.


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## albert (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> What lack of maintenance you seeing that killed it? Far as I know the dealer set this saw up and adjusted it.
> 
> 
> Looks like more care should have been given to the airfilter mounting/tightness. Maybe chain sharpenin too. I would lean towards someone other than the dealer setting the mixture that way.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

albert said:


> Modifiedmark said:
> 
> 
> > What lack of maintenance you seeing that killed it? Far as I know the dealer set this saw up and adjusted it.
> ...


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## sefh3 (Dec 3, 2012)

Seals are bad. Clutch side.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

sefh3 said:


> Seals are bad. Clutch side.



Is this a common problem with these? 

Thats the kind of stuff I was looking to find out.


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## o8f150 (Dec 3, 2012)

i am going to put my 2 cents in here,,, buy a huskie,, that will stop that problem ,,, no seriously,,,,, thats why i put a little bit of grease between the mating surfaces on the air filters to help stop that problem
i hate to say this but the saws that have the automotive style filters never have that problem that i have ever seen


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## stihlsilverman (Dec 3, 2012)

Have you taken apart the carb and looked? I have found these already with ethonal build up inside the carb. Could have been per-set from the dealer, but over time the ethonal in the gas could have clogged the fuel inlet screen in carb.


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## sefh3 (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Is this a common problem with these?
> 
> Thats the kind of stuff I was looking to find out.



I'm betting the bar got stuck and the operator yanked it. This puts stress on the clutch side seals and leans them out.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 3, 2012)

The dust under the filter baffles me. I could run mine for 40 hours without cleaning it and it would'nt let anything past. Heck, after running it 8 hours it barely has any dust on the filter at all. Something is wrong with that picture IMO. 

Mark, does it have an HD2 filter? Have a wrap on the filter?


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> The dust under the filter baffles me. I could run mine for 40 hours without cleaning it and it would'nt let anything past. Heck, after running it 8 hours it barely has any dust on the filter at all. Something is wrong with that picture IMO.
> 
> Mark, does it have an HD2 filter? Have a wrap on the filter?



Whats wrong with that picture? I just removed the filter, seen that crap in it and took the picture. I dont know what a a HD2 filter is, but I'm sure its whatever came stock on it. I'll photo it tomorrow.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

sefh3 said:


> I'm betting the bar got stuck and the operator yanked it. This puts stress on the clutch side seals and leans them out.



I'm trying to follow that, not sure how that happens unless brgs are shot too.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Whats wrong with that picture? I just removed the filter, seen that crap in it and took the picture. I dont know what a a HD2 filter is, but I'm sure its whatever came stock on it. I'll photo it tomorrow.



It's awful odd for a 441 filter to allow so much dust to get to the carb. I punish mine at work. I hardly have time to clean the filter until lunchtime and at the end of day. The filter barely even has any dust on it, and it's very clean under the filter. Seems the mating surfaces could be damaged on the filter or the carb. Like Mike said, the 441 is setup with an air injection like Husky saws. The filters are actually hard to dirty up. 

The HD2 filter is the newest one Stihl is using. They're very good filters. Black and chrome and should have HD2 wrote on it somewhere.


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> I come home and found this 441 on my doorstep tonight. The guy had called me and said he thought it was cooked and wanted it fixed.
> 
> Didnt expect it to be this bad, the saw aint really that old. This quick look is all I gave it tonight, just never paid that much attention to these and thought you guys might have some suggestions to look at before I tear it down. I will do a pressure/vac test on it before tear down but a quick look showed *the H needle just about tight on the lean side of the limiter and I'm betting that was the problem. *Sorry for the bad picture, I never said I was good at taking them. Oh and I thought they fixed the air filters on these newer ones?



That high side screw comes from the factory turned out as far as the limiter will allow it. If its been turned all the way in she's perking coffee. Check the chain real good, a turned in high side and dull chain will cook that baby in no time...


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> I'm trying to follow that, not sure how that happens unless brgs are shot too.



I've heard saws rev up when jerked hard. Maybe thats what he is talking about? Always wondered why they did that.


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## XSKIER (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Whats wrong with that picture? I just removed the filter, seen that crap in it and took the picture. I dont know what a a HD2 filter is, but I'm sure its whatever came stock on it. I'll photo it tomorrow.



They say HD2 in big letters on them. Could it have an aftermarket fall apart dolkita HD air filter?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Mark it's a common issue with these saws. You see the wing nut that holds the filter down likes to vibrate loose and fall completely off. The one I worked on was ran quite some time without the wing nut. I'm not 100% sure if the dirt caused the failure or not, my guess is it did. The intake side ring pin popped out, but the saw kept running long enough to allow the ring to rotate 180° and snag in the exhaust port, that finely stopped the saw for good lol.


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## Arrowhead (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm willing to bet someone incompetent did some adjusting. Either filter neglect, loose nut, or even ran it without. I've had a couple saws brought in this year where the owner said... _it seems to run better without a filter and on half choke._ :msp_rolleyes:
Freakin obama voters... :bang:


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## Arrowhead (Dec 3, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Mark it's a common issue with these saws. You see the wing nut that holds the filter down likes to vibrate loose and fall completely off. The one I worked on was ran quite some time without the wing nut. I'm not 100% sure if the dirt caused the failure or not, my guess is it did. The intake side ring pin popped out, but the saw kept running long enough to allow the ring to rotate 180° and snag in the exhaust port, that finely stopped the saw for good lol.



You beat me to the_ loose nut_ Andy. lol


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> They say HD2 in big letters on them. Could it have an aftermarket fall apart dolkita HD air filter?



Well HAHA.:msp_razz:


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Arrowhead said:


> Freakin obama voters... :bang:


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 3, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Mark it's a common issue with these saws. You see the wing nut that holds the filter down likes to vibrate loose and fall completely off. The one I worked on was ran quite some time without the wing nut. I'm not 100% sure if the dirt caused the failure or not, my guess is it did. The intake side ring pin popped out, but the saw kept running long enough to allow the ring to rotate 180° and snag in the exhaust port, that finely stopped the saw for good lol.



Sheww, thats nasty. I'll have to rememberto keep an eye on mine. It seems the opposite on mine though, I usually can't hardly get it loosened.


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## tree monkey (Dec 3, 2012)

intake boot is most common


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

THALL10326 said:


> That high side screw comes from the factory turned out as far as the limiter will allow it. If its been turned all the way in she's perking coffee. Check the chain real good, a turned in high side and dull chain will cook that baby in no time...



Thanks for chiming in Tom, your telling me what I was thinking, this thing was set closer to lean then to rich for sure. Not all the way lean though. I'll find out more when I talk to him again, like I said he dropped it off before I got home. Like I said before, he dont run dull chains. The one thats on it now is good and sharp. 

How much is a P/C for one of these MSRP? Just so I know before I hit the local dealer.

To the rest of yas, the filter wing nut was tight. 

Like I said, I was just looking for info of anything out of the way going on with these. I'm thinking that she leaned up and if not the carb settings, maybe a plugged screen in the carb. I have seen several lately that seemed to have a clear coating on them that would not allow fuel through them. I'm figureing that its something in the fuel coating them.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> Sheww, thats nasty. I'll have to rememberto keep an eye on mine. It seems the opposite on mine though, I usually can't hardly get it loosened.



Luck of the draw I suppose, some vibrate tighter some loose. I've personally now seen three, one was at my dealers and now maybe the one Mark has come loose. I think they may have changed the design of the plastic wing nut, but I'm just repeating what my dealer said.


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## Arrowhead (Dec 3, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


>



LOL... it's just been one of those days...


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## Saw Dr. (Dec 3, 2012)

WOW. I didn't think you were letting orange & white ones in anymore. I suppose if they're temporary visitors it doesn't count?


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Thanks for chiming in Tom, your telling me what I was thinking, this thing was set closer to lean then to rich for sure. Not all the way lean though. I'll find out more when I talk to him again, like I said he dropped it off before I got home. Like I said before, he dont run dull chains. The one thats on it now is good and sharp.
> 
> How much is a P/C for one of these MSRP? Just so I know before I hit the local dealer.
> 
> ...



Yikes-1138-020-1201 $271.00


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> To the rest of yas, the filter wing nut was tight.



For how long was it tight?? That's the question I always ask when I work on other peoples equipment.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

Saw Dr. said:


> WOW. I didn't think you were letting orange & white ones in anymore. I suppose if they're temporary visitors it doesn't count?




I got nothing against orange and white ones on the whole, even better when they make me some green. :msp_rolleyes:

The deal is, I don't go to the Stihl dealer, they do. I dont even ask how much it cost since it aint costing me. They bring them to me because the dealer would just try to sell them a new saw anyway. :msp_wink:


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## Log slayer (Dec 3, 2012)

o8f150 said:


> i am going to put my 2 cents in here,,, buy a huskie,, that will stop that problem ,,, no seriously,,,,, thats why i put a little bit of grease between the mating surfaces on the air filters to help stop that problem
> i hate to say this but the saws that have the automotive style filters never have that problem that i have ever seen



My 261 has the k&n style filter and I still put some grease around the gasket. I noticed just a small hint of dust getting by. Some of these new filter are better but have small flaws in them. Just a thought.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

THALL10326 said:


> Yikes-1138-020-1201 $271.00



Ouch, thats going to leave a mark. 

Now I see a little why they try to sell em new ones. LOL


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## Arrowhead (Dec 3, 2012)

It wouldn't surprise me that once the saw quit... then things got looked at a little closer.
I've also learned, when people straight gas a saw and it quits... if they realize what happened, most will dump the fuel, put mix in, and see if it will run.
A few admitted this when they brought them in. I never rule out straight gassed, even if it was brought in with mix in it. If I did not know better, I'd probably try the same thing. Can't hurt I guess. lol


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

Arrowhead said:


> It wouldn't surprise me that once the saw quit... then things got looked at a little closer.
> I've also learned, when people straight gas a saw and it quits... if they realize what happened, most will dump the fuel, put mix in, and see if it will run.
> A few admitted this when they brought them in. I never rule out straight gassed, even if it was brought in with mix in it. If I did not know better, I'd probably try the same thing. Can't hurt I guess. lol



From the quick look, I didnt really see straight gas damage on the intake side. It would have had to been a bad accident for these guys to straight gas one.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Ouch, thats going to leave a mark.



Mark I ended up using an aftermarket top end from Northwood saw, right now they're on sale for 73 bucks. The kit wasn't all that bad looking and the saw seemed to run fine.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 3, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Mark I ended up using an aftermarket top end from Northwood saw, right now they're on sale for 73 bucks.Chainsaw Parts[match]=all&s[search]=ms441&s[title]=Y&s[short_desc]=Y&s[full_desc]=Y&s[cid]=0&s[subcats]=Y&s[mid]=0&s[sku]=&s[price_from]=&s[price_to]=&s[weight_from]=&s[weight_to]= The kit wasn't all that bad looking and the saw seemed to run fine.



Thanks Andy, that might be a option.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Arrowhead said:


> It wouldn't surprise me that once the saw quit... then things got looked at a little closer.
> I've also learned, when people straight gas a saw and it quits... if they realize what happened, most will dump the fuel, put mix in, and see if it will run.
> A few admitted this when they brought them in. I never rule out straight gassed, even if it was brought in with mix in it. If I did not know better, I'd probably try the same thing. Can't hurt I guess. lol



100% correct Nik had that happen a few weeks ago.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Thanks Andy, that might be a option.



Sorry.. the link didn't want to work for some reason??


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## Arrowhead (Dec 3, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> From the quick look, I didnt really see straight gas damage on the intake side. It would have had to been a bad accident for these guys to straight gas one.



No, I'm not saying straight gassed. Just giving an example how some people only pay attention to their saw when it quits. Recheck, retighten, etc...
then see if it will run.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 4, 2012)

I snapped a couple pics of my filter and carb. The filter has'nt been cleaned today. I ran it for maybe 4-5 hours, about 5-6 tanks of fuel. It's really not even dirty, but thats not the point. Notice the carb. I've never wiped out that area since having this saw ported. It has around 20 tanks or so on it I'm figuring. No noticeable dirt. It would seem that the filter on the saw in this thread had to have been ran loose at one point to have gathered so much trash.


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## zogger (Dec 4, 2012)

naturelover said:


> HAHAHA!!!
> 
> I know, I know....
> 
> Have to wait ()or Santa to bring me a new laptop... :hmm3grin2orange:



my phreeking () key is intermittent. Amazing how many words you need that dang key.


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## jropo (Dec 4, 2012)

zogger said:


> my phreeking () key is intermittent. Amazing how many words you need that dang key.



My dddd key is the same way.

Run a screwdriver or something across the threads to stop the wingnut from backing off.
Works good for bar nuts too.


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## splitpost (Dec 4, 2012)

zogger said:


> my phreeking () key is intermittent. Amazing how many words you need that dang key.



pull up the onscreen keyboard,thats what i use,none of my keys work now,spilled a cup of coffee on them:msp_angry:


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## splitpost (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark i had a filter on my 660 that i used to run without the main cover and used a wingnut set up simmilar to the 441 and i discovered that the centre was bottoming out before it sealed up around the base ,i found it don't matter how tight it is it still won't seal,worth looking into


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 4, 2012)

Charcoal factory on the sides of the exhaust port. 
The intake has fines in/on every possible place to be seen.
The entire saw is "flocked" and looks to have been run that way for a while.
you say the h needle is screwed in.
-
they never cleaned the filter, explains the needle adjustment.

air filter really tight. 
would the marks in the bottom of the fastener hole
indicate a distorted/cracked filter body? 
or the intake housing flexed/distorted.
also the gunky looking spot from 10:00 to 6:00 around the hole
looks like the filter and the housing were really close together.
(nother ? on the distorted parts thing)

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, or ignorant of assembly details.
Just gawking at the two pics and surmising some stuff, 
from afar.


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## lly_duramax (Dec 4, 2012)

My 441's filter looks like Anthony_VA's after running it all day. I've never heard of a problem with the air filter on the 441. Its filtration setup is light years ahead of a 460/440. I'd have to say that the nut fell off and it wasn't put back on until after the saw quit running. Kind of like Arrowhead's analogy with the straight gas. The last time I checked for 441 parts on Chainsawr they had a few good used OEM pistons and cylinders. They are a great company to deal with. Good Luck!


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 4, 2012)

Got some time to dig into this 441 tonight. I basically am new to these so was just asking you guys who were into these if there were any quirks or problems out of the ordinary that I should look for. Dont seem like there are any. 

I had to fab up some block off plates but I got em made and did a pressure and vac test on the saw. It passed both with flying colors. I went ahead and tore it down and think I came up with a combination of things when all together caused the melt down. 

After removing the carb I am sure that the H screw was just to the lean side of center on the adjustment range of the limiters.

I also tore the carb down and found that the screen on the pump side of the carb was not letting fuel through it hardly at all. 
Although it looked clean it was coated with something that wouldnt let the fuel through, and like I said earlier I have seen that more then once lately. 

Last but not least I tested the fuel in the tank of the saw and it tested to 20% ethanol which is not good. I'm certain it was the combination of these three things that caused the lean condition. 

I talked to the owner of the saw tonight and he is going to get a P/C for it. Not sure if he is going with OEM or aftermarket yet. I told him to let his wallet be his guide. :msp_rolleyes:

As for the filter, he did tell me that they cleaned it now and then but to the best that he can remember that it never came loose on its own. I did look and it was a HD2 filter and it was really pretty clean. 

I took a couple pictures.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 4, 2012)

A couple more and I know that my skill at taking photos of the inside of cyls is lacking. The cyl has a lot of transfer, not sure if its worth the trouble trying to see if it would clean up or not. If it was my saw, maybe... 

One thing I did tell him was to first thing in the morning go out and dump his fuel can and dump the fuel out of all his saws and I think he has about 6 more. 

I told him to then get some fresh fuel, treat it with Stabil Ethanol treatment and then refill all the saws and let each one run for 5 minutes to get this old mix out of them.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 4, 2012)

lly_duramax said:


> The last time I checked for 441 parts on Chainsawr they had a few good used OEM pistons and cylinders. They are a great company to deal with. Good Luck!



Glad you had good luck but myself, no thanks, wont buy from them again.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Got some time to dig into this 441 tonight. I basically am new to these so was just asking you guys who were into these if there were any quirks or problems out of the ordinary that I should look for. Dont seem like there are any.
> 
> I had to fab up some block off plates but I got em made and did a pressure and vac test on the saw. It passed both with flying colors. I went ahead and tore it down and think I came up with a combination of things when all together caused the melt down.
> 
> ...




The coating on the screen is likely from the additives in the fuel. Just last week I saw the same exact thing in a hedge trimmer. My local dealer, who is in fact quite knowledgeable, insisted the coating was from the fuel additives. The coating was light gray and hard to see until I pulled the screen, it came off in one piece.

That piston has seen better days for sure lol. I think you have the correct diagnosis. Not all of the that is alcohol IMHO, if I were a betting man I'd say that fuel has a bit of moisture in it.

BTW I like the block off plates, good work!!


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## Arrowhead (Dec 5, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Glad you had good luck but myself, no thanks, wont buy from them again.



Same here... never will I buy from that crook again.


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 5, 2012)

Thanks for the update.

mercy, that space between
"not a good idea and OH ****" percent 
starts to seem awfully small, when you're gazing at that test bottle


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## redunshee (Dec 5, 2012)

THALL10326 said:


> Yikes-1138-020-1201 $271.00



Yea, that's about the price. Believe I paid $280 for my P&C.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 5, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> The coating on the screen is likely from the additives in the fuel. Just last week I saw the same exact thing in a hedge trimmer. My local dealer, who is in fact quite knowledgeable, insisted the coating was from the fuel additives. The coating was light gray and hard to see until I pulled the screen, it came off in one piece.
> 
> That piston has seen better days for sure lol. I think you have the correct diagnosis. Not all of the that is alcohol IMHO, if I were a betting man I'd say that fuel has a bit of moisture in it.
> 
> BTW I like the block off plates, good work!!



Yea the block off plates work well. Only had to make the intake side up. The one on the exhaust was made for a Poulan 3400.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 10, 2012)

Well the 441 is back together and running. The owner decided to give the AM top end from Northwood saw a try. It didnt hurt that someone I respect and trust said they were decent. Without going into detail, the kit did indeed look pretty good, I just spend a few minutes cleaning it up some. It had the OEM Stihl style clips so I used them along with the kits rings. We will see how it turns out. 

It got dark on me so I didnt get to try the saw out in any wood yet, I'll try that tomorrow. Even with the limters in place this thing wii 4 stroke hard at anything over about halfway rich on the high side. Got it set about half and its turning 12,750 with plenty of room to go richer yet. 

Not sure I like how this thing is put together but it is the first time taking one down and it went back together not too bad. Glad to see all the Husky that was put into this saw, made a decent saw out of it. 

I never hardly think about taking pictures when I'm working but here is one with the shiney cyl poking out of it.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Dec 10, 2012)

Looks good! Did you ever figure out how all of that crap got in there? Do this guy run his own saws, or does he have a crew?


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 10, 2012)

No I didnt find out for sure. I did check it close and found no good reason for it to look like that. The filter is undamaged and fits well. I'm thinking that as others pointed out, it might have come loose before and it will be watched closely in the future. 

If thats the case it will be addressed. 

I'm actually looking forward to running this thing tomorrow. I had run it before and thought it was a good running saw. 

This is a father/son tree service with some help now and then from a climber and a occaisonal other helper. Not a big time outfit.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

Good deal mark. The AM kits are what they are, and the so far the one's from Northwood look better than most I've seen. Anyway glad she's up and running. I've found that strato saws really don't like to be ran super rich, they seem to load up in the cut and won't make any power, so keep that in mind when tuning.

Overall the 441 is a good saw, just somewhat of a goofy carb box with all the lines going through it. Trust me when I say the 362 and 261 are both an improvement over the 441. 

Let us know how she runs.

Andre.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 10, 2012)

Yeah Andy this kit looked ok, better then what was going on in that "other" thread about the AM kits. 

Never fear, I also have found that the stratos dont like to be real rich as well. I'll find out tomorrow how it runs.


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## DarthTater (Dec 11, 2012)

Long time Lurker who just Registered to see the photos on this.

I've Never seen that much gunk in a carb, not even on a pice of junk Homelite weedeater I have that dosn't have a filter or any way you can add one.

Jeez!:jawdrop:


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

Well now this sucks, didnt get through one whole cut with it..... 

I'll make the phone call in the morning...












Wait it gets better, the owner called as I was taking this apart again, said he's bringing over his MS460 for me to look at to see if I could fix it. 

This is what he brought in. Now he needs the 441 bad.











I wonder if there are any 460s left at the dealers?


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## Ductape (Dec 11, 2012)

Ouchie !


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

Ductape said:


> Ouchie !



Yeah, which one you talking about?


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## LowVolt (Dec 11, 2012)

Damn that sucks! What happened?


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## ford832 (Dec 11, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Well I wont argue about the filter but it was really not that dirty when I took it off. No matter though, that dust didn't melt it down and kill it.




The one I rebuilt lunched itself like that,and the filter was tight(at the time anyway), the carb throat was stogged full of dust and the limiter caps were on,and adjusted to the rich side.I think I'd grease them too,it seems to be a common theme.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

LowVolt said:


> Damn that sucks! What happened?



It hooked a ring on the exh port. 

Glad it happend now, not later.


----------



## greg409 (Dec 11, 2012)

Looks like the wrist pin clip came out? (with these old eyes it looks like the pin-hole edge is cracked off)

Ten deep breaths


luck,greg


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Dec 11, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Well now this sucks, didnt get through one whole cut with it.....
> 
> I'll make the phone call in the morning...
> 
> ...





That stinks. hope NW takes care of it.


----------



## Anthony_Va. (Dec 11, 2012)

What happened to the 441 Mark? Thats just one cut in?

EDIT: I see you already posted what happened. Sorry. Thats what happens when you click on reply, then go to the bathroom


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> What happened to the 441 Mark? Thats just one cut in?



Didn't make the whole cut through a 24" log.


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## jbighump (Dec 11, 2012)

im sure northwood saw will make this good they have great cs...


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## XSKIER (Dec 11, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> It hooked a ring on the exh port.
> 
> Glad it happend now, not later.



That'll happen when you put the piston in backwards. Always remember ring locating pins toward the intake side. Thanks for sharing, I don't think I'd have admitted it.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> That'll happen when you put the piston in backwards. Always remember ring locating pins toward the intake side. Thanks for sharing, I don't think I'd have admitted it.



Marks just a bit more experienced than to make that mistake.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2012)

I think LowVolt said he had an OEM cylinder for sale. If not, here's one, Stihl MS441 Cylinder Head Jug Piston Rings 50mm MS 441 1138 | eBay.


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## procarbine2k1 (Dec 11, 2012)

I saw a 441 the other day at a friends shop that lost one of the ring pins and chewed up the piston and cylinder. He said that he had never seen one do that, but after a phone call to another reputable tech... it has happened more than once. I didnt read all the way through, and realize that probably wasnt an issue, just thought it was worth mentioning.


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## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2012)

I don't know how long I can keep this up!


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## huskydude (Dec 11, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> That'll happen when you put the piston in backwards. Always remember ring locating pins toward the intake side. Thanks for sharing, I don't think I'd have admitted it.



:msp_rolleyes:

Nice job jumping to conclusions. Having seen Mark's many posts, I'm sure he would have mentioned that. But hey, you've been here all of 4 months, what do I know.


----------



## procarbine2k1 (Dec 11, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I don't know how long I can keep this up!




Keep biting, you're doing good! haha


----------



## Anthony_Va. (Dec 11, 2012)

I doubt the piston was backward. Mark knows his sheit. 

He said the ring grabbed the port. I figure the beveling in that AM jug was crappy. 

I'd check out that OEM kit on Ebay. I seen it on there the other day


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> That'll happen when you put the piston in backwards. Always remember ring locating pins toward the intake side. Thanks for sharing, I don't think I'd have admitted it.





I didnt admit it, you must have dreamed that up. It just hooked a ring. 




blsnelling said:


> I think LowVolt said he had an OEM cylinder for sale. If not, here's one, Stihl MS441 Cylinder Head Jug Piston Rings 50mm MS 441 1138 | eBay.



Well, Brad, its not my saw and its not coming from my wallet. The owner made the choice and looking at what happend to his 460, I can see his side of it. Spend $300 for a P/C and end up with a saw like that in a week maybe? Like you have been told before these are tools to most people. 

Personally, buying used parts from ebay is just as risky as buying AM if you have my luck. 

You dont have to bite your tounge either, I know what your thinking, and you noticed I stayed out of that other mess you got yourself into because I am not commited either way, I know the risks involved, I also know the stupid money Stihl wants for new parts for this thing. Pick your poison. 

To me its just my luck of the draw and the next one will be fine. If there is one bad part of anything in a batch of 1000, it will be the one that I get. At least it seems that way to me way too often. You ought to hear some of the doosies I have had to endure. 

The upside is now I have enough time working on a 441 I had that jug back off in just minutes.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2012)

For those that didn't realize it, the bottom ring end locating ring is just to the side of the exhaust port. It *could *be that the pin wasn't located correctly. Also, the intake skirt isn't near that wide on the 441.


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## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2012)

Mark, do yourself a favor and just get a refund. Either buy that used OEM topend I linked or contact LowVolt for the one I think he has.


----------



## XSKIER (Dec 11, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> For those that didn't realize it, the bottom ring end locating ring is just to the side of the exhaust port. It *could *be that the pin wasn't located correctly. Also, the intake skirt isn't near that wide on the 441.



I'm sure everybody else sees what I see. Right next to the "caught" ring is the ring end locator pin. Compare that to the gouge in the cylinder and the locator pin is in the exhaust port. My reply wasn't aimed to hurt feelings, I just didn't consider the possibility of the ring end gap being intentionally put in the exhaust port by the piston manufacturer. The engine builder should be off the hook, right?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Mark, do yourself a favor and just get a refund. Either buy that used OEM topend I linked or contact LowVolt for the one I think he has.



Your persistent and determined, I'll give you that. 

Some people might say to the point of being annoying.


----------



## procarbine2k1 (Dec 11, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> I just didn't consider the possibility of the ring end gap being intentionally put in the exhaust port by the piston manufacturer.



It wouldnt be the first time that it happened in error by the manufacturer.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2012)

jbighump said:


> im sure northwood saw will make this good they have great cs...



I'm sure they will promptly replace it, as will Baileys. They are fantastic in those regards. The problem is that CS is not a replacement for QC. Fix the product.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 11, 2012)

procarbine2k1 said:


> It wouldnt be the first time that it happened in error by the manufacturer.



I checked that out, that pin is in the correct place compared to the original.


----------



## Anthony_Va. (Dec 12, 2012)

That Ebay cylinder does look like a good deal. I'm with mark though, it's about as risky buying a used cylinder as it is to buy an AM cylinder. If it turns out bad, you have to go through all that Ebay crap to get a refund. All the while, the customer is without his saw.

If it did turn out good, it would be a great deal. It's risky though IMO.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 12, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> That Ebay cylinder does look like a good deal. I'm with mark though, it's about as risky buying a used cylinder as it is to buy an AM cylinder. If it turns out bad, you have to go through all that Ebay crap to get a refund. All the while, the customer is without his saw.
> 
> If it did turn out good, it would be a great deal. It's risky though IMO.



If you look closely at those ebay pictures, you can see that P/C is very far from fresh and looks to have been pleanty warm lots of time. Maybe that seller is telling the truth about the comp readings and maybe not as well. 

I think any decent AM P/C will have the life left in it that that used set has.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 12, 2012)

Mark, I'd like to see you reinstall the piston, bolt the cylinder down, and mark the edge of the exhaust port across the ring grooves. Also, how was the shape of the exhaust floor?


----------



## stubnail67 (Dec 12, 2012)

*In*

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## sefh3 (Dec 12, 2012)

Is the pin on the bottom ring placed there due to the saw being a strato?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 12, 2012)

sefh3 said:


> Is the pin on the bottom ring placed there due to the saw being a strato?



No. The 361 is the same way, IIRC.


----------



## huskydude (Dec 12, 2012)

Same with a closed port 55 piston - it is offset


----------



## sefh3 (Dec 12, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> No. The 361 is the same way, IIRC.



It would be interesting to know, why the ring gap is so close to the exhaust.

Sorry to highjack Mark, just trying to gain knowledge here.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 12, 2012)

Unfortunately I know how this feels  Sorry this happened Mark!! I'm sure NorthWood will take care of everything. I'll be seeing the owner of the 441 I repaired this evening, I'm curious to know how the saws running.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 12, 2012)

sefh3 said:


> It would be interesting to know, why the ring gap is so close to the exhaust.
> 
> Sorry to highjack Mark, just trying to gain knowledge here.



Likely has to do with the strato transfers, but than again the 361 has the same setup like Brad said.


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Dec 12, 2012)

Sorry to see the bad luck...



Modifiedmark said:


> I wonder if there are any 460s left at the dealers?



I've got a new 460 sitting on the display here in SE Ohio...


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 12, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Unfortunately I know how this feels  Sorry this happened Mark!! I'm sure NorthWood will take care of everything. I'll be seeing the owner of the 441 I repaired this evening, I'm curious to know how the saws running.



Andy, I know of all people you would know that feeling. 

Ok now I'll tell the rest of the story and a lesson to be learned from it. 

I called about a new P/C today but wouldnt think of asking for a warranty on it. Reason is that with all this BS discussions about A.M. P/C's I was a little gun shy about them myself and was not really happy with this cyl when I got it as the exhaust port looked to have very little chamfer on it. The rest of the ports did look good though. 

Since I knew the owner would be wanting the saw soon, I didnt want to send it back and loose that time or take a chance of it hooking a ring so I went ahead and cleaned up the exhaust port lightly and gave the port a very tiny bit more chamfer on it myself. 

Long story short it still hooked a ring and if you modify the part you cannot expect the company to stand behind it. Would it have hooked a ring anyway? I dont know, I'm thinking so. With the rest of the ports looking good I think this was just one of the ones that slipped by. 

The company did offer to send me one at a very nice discount and promised it would be shipped out today. Very stand up people. 

I'll check the other one close when it gets here but it will get bolted straight on out of the box.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 12, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Andy, I know of all people you would know that feeling.
> 
> The company did offer to send me one at a very nice discount and promised it would be shipped out today. Very stand up people.
> 
> I'll check the other one close when it gets here but it will get bolted straight on out of the box.



Sure isn't a good feeling!!

Glad NorthWood is helping you out. 

The 441 I had is still running great after 6 months in commercial use. I was up front with the owner when using the AM top end, I said it could last one minute, one week or indefinitely. Using these kits is a bit of a gamble, but if they work, an old saws can live to cut another day.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 12, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Sure isn't a good feeling!!
> 
> Glad NorthWood is helping you out.
> 
> The 441 I had is still running great after 6 months in commercial use. I was up front with the owner when using the AM top end, I said it could last one minute, one week or indefinitely. Using these kits is a bit of a gamble, but if they work, an old saws can live to cut another day.



Well its good to know that its still running fine, I expect better luck out of the next kit. Hope to get it going by the weekend for him at least. 

BTW, I like that new avatar! it rocks.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 12, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> BTW, I like that new avatar! it rocks.



You know it does!!!:msp_smile:


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 13, 2012)

Just trying to eyeball from the pics,
but looks like the ring end was gonna be close to the port edge.
Is it practical time wise or worth the work to measure the width and index the port location ?
=
bear in mind this monocular diplopia thing makes it tough to gauge at certain spacings now.
Can't read a vernier scale anymore on account of it.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 14, 2012)

The replacement jug showed up today so soon as I got home I got busy and got the saw put back together, had just a wee bit of light left to give it a run. Runs good too. 

Like I said, was in a rush to get it back together so the owner could have it for tomorrow, so no pics etc. I will say that the jug this time looked really pretty good all over, ports looked good, all of them. 

Had a bit of trouble with that throttle cable not letting it come all the way back to idle, had to tear back into it. Not sure what I did to fix it but its fine now. Kinda a cheesy linkage setup if you ask me for a high dollar saw, but I guess it works. 

Set it up a little rich since its going right out to work tomorrow!


----------



## Anthony_Va. (Dec 14, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> The replacement jug showed up today so soon as I got home I got busy and got the saw put back together, had just a wee bit of light left to give it a run. Runs good too.
> 
> Like I said, was in a rush to get it back together so the owner could have it for tomorrow, so no pics etc. I will say that the jug this time looked really pretty good all over, ports looked good, all of them.
> 
> ...



I know man. The whole throttle linkage setup is worthless on these saws. I never hear about them breaking but they do seem weak IMO. The on/off/choke lever feels weak too. It feels like it would break when you push it to choke. If you let the throttle off a bit when pushing it down it goes down easily though. It's not near as stout as other Stihls.


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## Slamm (Dec 14, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> I know man. The whole throttle linkage setup is worthless on these saws. I never hear about them breaking but they do seem weak IMO. The on/off/choke lever feels weak too. It feels like it would break when you push it to choke. If you let the throttle off a bit when pushing it down it goes down easily though. It's not near as stout as other Stihls.



???? So you have never heard of one breaking, I know of over 20 441's that I have never heard of the levers breaking. I personally have put as much or more time on a 441 than most anyone around in a logging setting and your comment is "The whole throttle linkage setup is worthless on these saws." ???????? How so, you don't even know of one breaking.

The switch on the 441's is one of the easiest and most user friendly systems on a saw, ever designed, you don't have to hunt around or push hard to get it to do exactly what you want it to do. How on earth you could break it and it not be due to shear stupidity is beyond me.




> If you let the throttle off a bit when pushing it down it goes down easily though.



You do know that is how they were designed to be operated don't you??? Because based on the above statement it appears that you don't know how to operate it, and therefore it would lead someone such as yourself to think that the switch is about to break, when in reality, it must be very strong if you have been operating it incorrectly and it hasn't stripped or broken yet.

Sam


----------



## s219 (Dec 14, 2012)

I have to agree, of the four Stihls I have bought in the last year, the 441 control lever feels the most flimsy to me. And I have run two different 441s that each had a different feel to the lever (neither was great).

My 261 lever works fine, but also has a flimsy feel similar to the 441. I'm kind of neutral on the 461 lever -- it works OK, no complaints.

I don't own a 362, but ran one of those recently and it has a real nice lever -- very stout with firm and positive feel.


----------



## Anthony_Va. (Dec 14, 2012)

Slamm said:


> ???? So you have never heard of one breaking, I know of over 20 441's that I have never heard of the levers breaking. I personally have put as much or more time on a 441 than most anyone around in a logging setting and your comment is "The whole throttle linkage setup is worthless on these saws." ???????? How so, you don't even know of one breaking.
> 
> The switch on the 441's is one of the easiest and most user friendly systems on a saw, ever designed, you don't have to hunt around or push hard to get it to do exactly what you want it to do. How on earth you could break it and it not be due to shear stupidity is beyond me.
> 
> ...



I think I know how to operate a chainsaw Sam. You ain't the only man here that runs a saw for a living. I own, love, and run a 441C everyday too bud. But the control lever is flimsy as hell and I think most will agree. Yea, I know to let up the throttle when pushing it down. Did I not just post that I did in "the above statements"? Read back and see. I posted the proper way to do it for people that did'nt know how. So yea, I guess I'm doing it wrong everyday, even though I know the right way to do it? Your just always looking to sling that internet mouth around on here, implying people are stupid or inferior to your almighty ass if they don't agree with you. Little man complex?


----------



## woodcuter ms361 (Dec 14, 2012)

I have a 441 I bought a little over a year ago and it been fine so far! I don't know if it's a C or not,how do you tell and what's the difference? Thanks


----------



## Anthony_Va. (Dec 14, 2012)

woodcuter ms361 said:


> I have a 441 I bought a little over a year ago and it been fine so far! I don't know if it's a C or not,how do you tell and what's the difference? Thanks



The 441C has the m-tronic (auto adjusting) carb. It has a "C" on the starter cover next to the number "441". If yours has carb adjustments then it's the regular 441. 

They're both good running saws.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 15, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> The replacement jug showed up today so soon as I got home I got busy and got the saw put back together, had just a wee bit of light left to give it a run. Runs good too.
> 
> Like I said, was in a rush to get it back together so the owner could have it for tomorrow, so no pics etc. I will say that the jug this time looked really pretty good all over, ports looked good, all of them.
> 
> ...



Good deal Mark..


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

Slamm said:


> ???? So you have never heard of one breaking, I know of over 20 441's that I have never heard of the levers breaking. I personally have put as much or more time on a 441 than most anyone around in a logging setting and your comment is "The whole throttle linkage setup is worthless on these saws." ???????? How so, you don't even know of one breaking.
> 
> The switch on the 441's is one of the easiest and most user friendly systems on a saw, ever designed, you don't have to hunt around or push hard to get it to do exactly what you want it to do. How on earth you could break it and it not be due to shear stupidity is beyond me.
> 
> ...



Sam, your getting to be very predictable and boring. 

Please take your Stihl flag waving and insults to some other thread. Better yet, go start your own.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> I think I know how to operate a chainsaw Sam. You ain't the only man here that runs a saw for a living. I own, love, and run a 441C everyday too bud. But the control lever is flimsy as hell and I think most will agree. Yea, I know to let up the throttle when pushing it down. Did I not just post that I did in "the above statements"? Read back and see. I posted the proper way to do it for people that did'nt know how. So yea, I guess I'm doing it wrong everyday, even though I know the right way to do it? Your just always looking to sling that internet mouth around on here, implying people are stupid or inferior to your almighty ass if they don't agree with you. Little man complex?



Sorry, I should have known better even suggest that Stihl could not be the best with every little piece of there saws. :msp_wink:

Some people just cant handle the truth that the cable setup on these could be set up better or that not everyone likes that master control setup. I dont and it aint just Stihls, I just sold my Dolmar 5100 because of that master control setup on it that I didnt like.


----------



## sefh3 (Dec 15, 2012)

Glad to see the second topend looked better and that you got it going. Now are you going to fix the 460?


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 15, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Sorry, I should have known better even suggest that Stihl could not be the best with every little piece of there saws. :msp_wink:
> 
> Some people just cant handle the truth that the cable setup on these could be set up better or that not everyone likes that master control setup. I dont and it aint just Stihls, I just sold my Dolmar 5100 because of that master control setup on it that I didnt like.



I remember that saw:msp_wink:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

sefh3 said:


> Glad to see the second topend looked better and that you got it going. Now are you going to fix the 460?



I dont know yet. I know it wouldnt be cost effective to go and buy all new parts to fix it, thats for sure. This 460 is no spring chicken either, its got alot of tough time on it but it was still running pretty good. 

The owner is looking at maybe just replacing it with a new one for now and we talked a little about just putting this one to the side and keeping a eye out for a parts saw or used ebay parts and such to get it back together later on. I probably wont do it though without a new piston rings , seals, brgs, gaskets etc. I think it would be a waste of effort otherwise.

Too bad it got the case all busted up, it wouldnt be such a big job and $$


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> I remember that saw:msp_wink:



You should with all that nonsense you started with it. I gave it a fair chance and have had it for a while though didnt I?


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 15, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> You should with all that nonsense you started with it. I gave it a fair chance and have had it for a while though didnt I?



Hmmm,

who started the nonsense?

OK, OK,

I DID apologize. 

For what it's worth, I consider you a Comrade.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> who started the nonsense?
> 
> ...



I know, I forgive and "try" to forget!! :msp_smile:



I will say the master control on the Dolmar at least worked right and stop was down on it, not backwards and up like on the Sthils. 

FWIW, I do to.


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 15, 2012)

But you still aint gonna plow my driveway!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> But you still aint gonna plow my driveway!



OK, but no #####ing like my wife does every spring when she's out raking the driveway stone out of the yard.


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 15, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> OK, but no #####ing like my wife does every spring when she's out raking the driveway stone out of the yard.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 15, 2012)

Ok let me add, no #####ing about the light poles either. :msp_wink:


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 16, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Ok let me add, no #####ing about the light poles either. :msp_wink:



Don't worry Bro',

We have an old Bolens with a sno caster, set her a little high and no worries about stones in the yard (almost)

The poles help guide along with a few strategically placed markers. Funny how everything looks different when it is all White eh?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 16, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> Don't worry Bro',
> 
> We have an old Bolens with a sno caster, set her a little high and no worries about stones in the yard (almost)
> 
> The poles help guide along with a few strategically placed markers. Funny how everything looks different when it is all White eh?



Yep you would need markers for that drive, easy to get snowblind when it gets deep. 

Back on track, the owner picked up the 441 yesterday, we took it out back and gave it a little more try out and it run pretty dang good. Rings must be starting to seat already as it picked up a couple hundred RPM.


----------



## XSKIER (Dec 16, 2012)

So Mark,
Is the ring location pin in different place on the new piston? Is the exhaust port not as wide on the new cylinder? I'm happy for you that the saw is running better, but why?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

Dammit man, the 441 came back again.

Big chunk out of the top of the piston, looks like it snagged a ring again. Hope to get it pulled apart today, told the owner that I'm done with this AM P/C, he is now going to bite the bullet and order OEM Monday. .


----------



## MS460WOODCHUCK (Dec 23, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Dammit man, the 441 came back again.
> 
> Big chunk out of the top of the piston, looks like it snagged a ring again. Hope to get it pulled apart today, told the owner that I'm done with this AM P/C, he is now going to bite the bullet and order OEM Monday. .



Just can't catch a dang break with saw can ya Mark. Just relax and enjoy a little christmas vacation with family. This nightmare of a saw will be there when it's over...


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 23, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Dammit man, the 441 came back again.
> 
> Big chunk out of the top of the piston, looks like it snagged a ring again. Hope to get it pulled apart today, told the owner that I'm done with this AM P/C, he is now going to bite the bullet and order OEM Monday. .



Man, that sucks Mark. Pretty obvious what the best deal is. Add your time in, and you've spent way more.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Man, that sucks Mark. Pretty obvious what the best deal is. Add your time in, and you've spent way more.



Yes very obvious. You cannot fix em when you get em either if you want the seller to stand behind them. 

I dont think I will do this again for anyone other then myself. I consider these guys friends is the only reason I tried them, that and to see for myself what they are. 

I'm done with em though, I dont care how much Stihl charges for these parts, they want to buy this brand they will just have to pay from now on.


----------



## sefh3 (Dec 23, 2012)

Man that sucks.
Have you tore it down yet? Did the ring stick on the exhaust side?


----------



## komatsuvarna (Dec 23, 2012)

Sure is a bummer, but I know where your coming from.

I was gonna rebuild a local loggers 460 last month. I priced it with an OEM topend, and a Meteor topend, either way was gonna get a case flush and new OEM seals and gaskets. Tried to do it right because I didn't see no reason to half ass it and him try to go make a living with it. Long story short, he thought I wanted way to much money and he found a topend kit somewhere for 69.99 and installed it himself. He called me Thursday and said he got to run it for 2 days and the piston exploded. I hadn't seen it, but he said it messed up the case as well. Probably been much cheeper for him to go OEM the first trip....but hey


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

sefh3 said:


> Man that sucks.
> Have you tore it down yet? Did the ring stick on the exhaust side?



Naw I aint tore it down yet, just pulling the muffler is all I needed to see how bad it was. Probably tear it down tomorrow, been busy cutting wood yesterday and done some auto maintence and stuff today. Besides I aint in the mood to do it again right now. LOL 



komatsuvarna said:


> Sure is a bummer, but I know where your coming from.
> 
> I was gonna rebuild a local loggers 460 last month. I priced it with an OEM topend, and a Meteor topend, either way was gonna get a case flush and new OEM seals and gaskets. Tried to do it right because I didn't see no reason to half ass it and him try to go make a living with it. Long story short, he thought I wanted way to much money and he found a topend kit somewhere for 69.99 and installed it himself. He called me Thursday and said he got to run it for 2 days and the piston exploded. I hadn't seen it, but he said it messed up the case as well. Probably been much cheeper for him to go OEM the first trip....but hey



Yep you sure do know!


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2012)

WOW!!:msp_scared: that really sucks!! Sorry I recommended them, it's cost you a lot of time and money. I guess we all have a better idea how bad these kits really are. Including the MS-390 blocks and now that 441, the failure rate is right around 50%.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

Andy its alright, no big thing, I could tell you had resorvations about them. 

I read that whole train wreck of the thread on AM P/C and at this point on these I would say I'm starting to see Brads point of view on them especially about putting them on someone elses saw. 

I'm going to pull this jug in the morning and we will get a better look at what happend this time.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 23, 2012)

Like you said Mark, you can't go in and fix them without voiding their warranty. There's no way a man could use these cylinders on anything other than his own saw. That sucks too, as high as OEM cylinders are. But it looks to be the only option anymore.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

Well like I said, I thought I was out of the woods on this one. Checked it all out real well, saw started and run great. Had it set rich at about 12,800 for safetys sake. I new it was put straight out to work and had not heard anything about it at all. 

Figured all was good with it till I came home from my own woodcutting adventures yesterday and found it by the door of the shop.

One pull of the rope was all I needed to do to know it wasnt here to get the carb reset. It actually wasnt used that much this week at all, the owner said it had less then 2 tanks run through it and I believe him, we got several rainy days this last week where I know they were not working.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Andy its alright, no big thing, I could tell you had resorvations about them.
> 
> I read that whole train wreck of the thread on AM P/C and at this point on these I would say I'm starting to see Brads point of view on them especially about putting them on someone elses saw.
> 
> I'm going to pull this jug in the morning and we will get a better look at what happend this time.



I sure did have reservations about the AM products, it's always a bit of a gamble. With the overall failures we've seen recently, it's painting an ugly picture.

Marry Christmas Mark.


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## gmax (Dec 23, 2012)

Mark sure is unlucky, I've fitted 2 AM kits lately, one on a Stihl 034 the other a Oleo Mac 962, both kits looked good and the saws are running fine.
If I did have a failure I too would think twice about using them.


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## blsnelling (Dec 23, 2012)

Mark, you didn't really need to validate what I've been trying to say:msp_scared:


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Mark, you didn't really need to validate what I've been trying to say:msp_scared:



Now dont go getting your head all swelled up and such, you wont be able to fit your hardhat on it for your next outing. I have seen the video, and you for one should sure be wearing one.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


>



Haven't had one of those in close to two weeks, I think I'm due a cold one.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Haven't had one of those in close to two weeks, I think I'm due a cold one.



Sorry about your luck! 

Personally I was looking for that little smiley with the sign that says "give me another beer" :msp_biggrin:


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 23, 2012)

Just think of it this way Brad. Those cylinders are 1/3 less cost....and your labor @$2.00 an hour, which is giving you more than you're worth......you can buy 2 more cylinder kits......Hahahahahahaha!


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Sorry about your luck!
> 
> Personally I was looking for that little smiley with the sign that says "give me another beer" :msp_biggrin:



Tomorrow!! I've been down with a cold and a bit of a sinus infection, so beer was out of the question. I'm sitting here salivating thinking about a cold Hop-Wallop.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

Well I seen lots interested in this and I had to walk out to the shop to check the fire in the stove anyway.....


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## DarthTater (Dec 23, 2012)

Tells me someone at that AM MFR is asleep at the switch.

2 AM P&C's in a row doing this is not a Coincidence.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2012)

Almost looks like the ring gap, maybe the ring pin came loose?? Or it just snapped, I've seen that before too.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2012)

DarthTater said:


> Tells me someone at that AM MFR is asleep at the switch.
> 
> 2 AM P&C's in a row doing this is not a Coincidence.



No it's not, and Mark is one of the better saw techs around IMHO.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Almost looks like the ring gap, maybe the ring pin came loose?? Or it just snapped, I've seen that before too.



You know at this point I really dont care what went wrong, junk is junk. All I care about at this point is getting a refund for said junk, and I'll be making that call in the morning.


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## blsnelling (Dec 23, 2012)

Hey Mark. How about a nice used OEM Gilardoni P&C for $100? Would that help you out?


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Hey Mark. How about a nice used OEM Gilardoni P&C for $100? Would that help you out?



Thanks it would if it was mine, but like I said, I'm not going to worry about how much it cost any more, these guys know up front how the Sthil dealers around here treat them and they still buy em anyway so why should I worry about it.


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## blsnelling (Dec 23, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Thanks it would if it was mine, but like I said, I'm not going to worry about how much it cost any more, these guys know up front how the Sthil dealers around here treat them and they still buy em anyway so why should I worry about it.



I understand entirely. In you're trying to save them money, you've cost yourself a lot of time and frustration.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 24, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> No it's not, and Mark is one of the better saw techs around IMHO.



I believe he was talking about the manufacturer (MFR,) not Mark himself. He was referring to quality control at whatever Chinese/Taiwanese plant is turning these things out.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 24, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I believe he was talking about the manufacturer (MFR,) not Mark himself. He was referring to quality control at whatever Chinese/Taiwanese plant is turning these things out.



I know, I was just reiterating that fact.


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## 056 kid (Dec 24, 2012)

anthony_va. said:


> i think i know how to operate a chainsaw sam. You ain't the only man here that runs a saw for a living. I own, love, and run a 441c everyday too bud. But the control lever is flimsy as hell and i think most will agree. Yea, i know to let up the throttle when pushing it down. Did i not just post that i did in "the above statements"? Read back and see. I posted the proper way to do it for people that did'nt know how. So yea, i guess i'm doing it wrong everyday, even though i know the right way to do it? Your just always looking to sling that internet mouth around on here, implying people are stupid or inferior to your almighty ass if they don't agree with you. Little man complex?



lmao


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

Well, I'm thinking this will have to be taken care of with Northwoods Wed or so, no answer there this morning... 

Anyone else but me starting to think I should get a refund for both of them now? At first I wouldnt think of it since I tried to clean up the first one, but I know I didnt harm it and am sure it would have done the same as this one anyway.

Naw I guess not, just thinking out loud.


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## XSKIER (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> So Mark,
> Is the ring location pin in different place on the new piston? Is the exhaust port not as wide on the new cylinder? I'm happy for you that the saw is running better, but why?



Can you tell why these pistons are failing yet? Are you just going to leave it up the the P/C retailer to figure it out?


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> Can you tell why these pistons are failing yet? Are you just going to leave it up the the P/C retailer to figure it out?



Very easy to see why they fail, the rings are catching the exhaust port, not hard to understand. You cant see that?

As to why, like I said, I dont care, it shouldnt be my problem or place to figure there junk out for them.


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## XSKIER (Dec 24, 2012)

I can see that a "caught" ring is the result of some problem in the engine system. Ring end gap too tight? Causing the end of the ring to spit out the exhaust port from a locating pin that is dangerously close? Rings upside down? Piston to cylinder clearance to tight or loose? Could be anything really. It's just too hard for a Monday morning armchair quarterback, like me, to work off a dark exhaust port picture. I'm genuinely interested in a solution to this problem because I may need to rely on one these kits someday.


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## LowVolt (Dec 24, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Well, I'm thinking this will have to be taken care of with Northwoods Wed or so, no answer there this morning...
> 
> Anyone else but me starting to think I should get a refund for both of them now? At first I wouldnt think of it since I tried to clean up the first one, but I know I didnt harm it and am sure it would have done the same as this one anyway.
> 
> Naw I guess not, just thinking out loud.



Heck yes you should get a refund for both. It sounds like they have good customer service so I would not think that would be an issue.

I know it has been asked if you needed a oem kit. I still got mine. You are more than welcome to install it and let the guy run it for a while. If it all works out, then the guy can pay me for it later, I am not to worried about it. If not, I understand. Let the customer worry about the parts and you worry about labor. Actually that is a great way to do business. Just trying to help. Either way good luck and I hope this all pans out.


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## DarthTater (Dec 24, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Anyone else but me starting to think I should get a refund for both of them now?



Heck Yeah, I would!

One thought since it looks like the rings are catching the exhaust port, could it be that its the wrong Piston?


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## barneyrb (Dec 24, 2012)

DarthTater said:


> Heck Yeah, I would!
> 
> One thought since it looks like the rings are catching the exhaust port, could it be that its the wrong Piston?



That is a strato saw with unique scallops for the strato charge to be induced into the cylinder and it is VERY obvious if it were the wrong piston. I really don't see how those asking if it is backwards can be asking that question if they have ever been inside a strato motor. It just don't make sense.......


And yes, refunds on both kits and I would sorta demand it at this point.........


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

LowVolt said:


> Heck yes you should get a refund for both. It sounds like they have good customer service so I would not think that would be an issue.
> 
> I know it has been asked if you needed a oem kit. I still got mine. You are more than welcome to install it and let the guy run it for a while. If it all works out, then the guy can pay me for it later, I am not to worried about it. If not, I understand. Let the customer worry about the parts and you worry about labor. Actually that is a great way to do business. Just trying to help. Either way good luck and I hope this all pans out.



Thanks again for the offer but at this point its getting new in the box from Stihl. I have done more then enough to save money at this point. 



DarthTater said:


> Heck Yeah, I would!
> 
> One thought since it looks like the rings are catching the exhaust port, could it be that its the wrong Piston?





barneyrb said:


> That is a strato saw with unique scallops for the strato charge to be induced into the cylinder and it is VERY obvious if it were the wrong piston. I really don't see how those asking if it is backwards can be asking that question if they have ever been inside a strato motor. It just don't make sense.......
> 
> 
> And yes, refunds on both kits and I would sorta demand it at this point.........



You are correct, impossible to be the wrong piston. 

Yeah like I said, I was ready to eat the first one since I did a little to it but now I think I will be asking for both refunds. We will see where that ends up.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> I can see that a "caught" ring is the result of some problem in the engine system. Ring end gap too tight? Causing the end of the ring to spit out the exhaust port from a locating pin that is dangerously close? Rings upside down? Piston to cylinder clearance to tight or loose? Could be anything really. It's just too hard for a Monday morning armchair quarterback, like me, to work off a dark exhaust port picture. I'm genuinely interested in a solution to this problem because I may need to rely on one these kits someday.



Now your insinuating that I possibly put the rings on upside down? Thanks alot. 

I will waste no more time with your questions, it would be impossible to put the rings on upside down and even get em in the cyl because of the way the locating pins are on these.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 24, 2012)

Was there any port work, done by you, to this cylinder?


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Was there any port work, done by you, to this cylinder?



Hahahahahahaha! NO.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

Pulled it down this morning, here are some pictures for all you investigators. 



Clearly some bad work on plating to ports.


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## expy (Dec 24, 2012)

Thanks for continuing to post updates. Some of us that are inexperienced can use threads like this to learn more about the Good, Bad and Ugly of saw rebuilding. Best of luck in keeping your thread on topic!:msp_thumbsup:


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## Mastermind (Dec 24, 2012)

I just read this whole thread.......what a mess you had there Mark.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 24, 2012)

Clearly that thumb print was the cause!


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## XSKIER (Dec 24, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Now your insinuating that I possibly put the rings on upside down? Thanks alot.
> 
> I will waste no more time with your questions, it would be impossible to put the rings on upside down and even get em in the cyl because of the way the locating pins are on these.



I'm not trying to insinuate, insult, question your ability, or challenge your intelligence. With your description, and the latest picks, I can see that it would be difficult to assemble the rings upside down. I'm just trying to throw out some conversation starters is all. Maybe the MS441 could have a leaky compression release, that doesn't leak on a pressure test, like a blown up MS461 which has shown up recently?


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 24, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Hahahahahahaha! NO.



Hahahahahahahaha!......Well, that's racing!:msp_biggrin:


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## barneyrb (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> I'm not trying to insinuate, insult, question your ability, or challenge your intelligence. With your description, and the latest picks, I can see that it would be difficult to assemble the rings upside down. I'm just trying to throw out some conversation starters is all. Maybe the MS441 could have a leaky compression release, that doesn't leak on a pressure test, like a blown up MS461 which has shown up recently?



M E C H A N I C A L damage, totally different type of damage. If you look you can see interference with the exhaust port. Like he said, snagged a ring.


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## blsnelling (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> I'm not trying to insinuate, insult, question your ability, or challenge your intelligence. With your description, and the latest picks, I can see that it would be difficult to assemble the rings upside down. I'm just trying to throw out some conversation starters is all. Maybe the MS441 could have a leaky compression release, that doesn't leak on a pressure test, like a blown up MS461 which has shown up recently?



An air leak has NOTHING to do with a ring catching


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## XSKIER (Dec 24, 2012)

The caught ring is only the symptom of a problem. The engine was not assembled with a caught ring, broke in with a caught ring, tuned to 12,800 rpm with a caught ring, or run through two tanks with a caught ring. Too much heat, too much clearance, too little clearance, poor metallurgy, poor quality control, or many other things will cause a ring to catch. Simply blaming the engine failure on a caught ring is likely to result in another failure of some sort. Don't be so defensive, I may be an ****** NOOB to arborist site, but I wasn't born yesterday.


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## barneyrb (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> The caught ring is only the symptom of a problem. The engine was not assembled with a caught ring, broke in with a caught ring, tuned to 12,800 rpm with a caught ring, or run through two tanks with a caught ring. Too much heat, too much clearance, too little clearance, poor metallurgy, poor quality control, or many other things will cause a ring to catch. Simply blaming the engine failure on a caught ring is likely to result in another failure of some sort. Don't be so defensive, I may be an ****** NOOB to arborist site, but I wasn't born yesterday.



Dude, you just don't get it......as a ring wears the edges become sharper, a much more acute corner forms instead of a rounded corner as they are shipped with. Now as the ring wears and the corner or leading edge where it contacts the cylinder wall then yes this will explain as to why it catches a ring with wear. That is also why people that fool with rings sometimes get a pretty nasty cut from handling a set of worn rings.

Not trying to insult you but if you read more and post less you might learn instead of rubbing people the wrong way.


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## Mastermind (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> The caught ring is only the symptom of a problem. The engine was not assembled with a caught ring, broke in with a caught ring, tuned to 12,800 rpm with a caught ring, or run through two tanks with a caught ring. Too much heat, too much clearance, too little clearance, poor metallurgy, poor quality control, or many other things will cause a ring to catch. Simply blaming the engine failure on a caught ring is likely to result in another failure of some sort. Don't be so defensive, I may be an ****** NOOB to arborist site, but I wasn't born yesterday.




I think that the ring caught as a result of poor plating at the port edge. It appears to be peeling. Something else to consider is the quality of the rings......did they break from stresses associated with traveling across uneven ports? If the port isn't very symmetrical the rings get hammered back and forth in the groove. Brittle crappy rings will break and hang up in the port.....it goes to hell fast after that and makes it tough to tell what happened first. Another thing that poor port shape causes. Again the rings are being hammered back and forth in the groove and a crappy piston will fail when the ring pin comes loose........#### goes downhill fast and again it's tough to tell what happened first. 

This top end failed because the parts sucked..........Period.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> The caught ring is only the symptom of a problem. The engine was not assembled with a caught ring, broke in with a caught ring, tuned to 12,800 rpm with a caught ring, or run through two tanks with a caught ring. Too much heat, too much clearance, too little clearance, poor metallurgy, poor quality control, or many other things will cause a ring to catch. Simply blaming the engine failure on a caught ring is likely to result in another failure of some sort. Don't be so defensive, I may be an ****** NOOB to arborist site, but I wasn't born yesterday.



Did you ever consider the poor beveling in the port caused the ring to snag. that's all it takes to do it. Doesn't have to be anything else cause it. what randy said about the uneven port doing it made alot of sense too. 

I wonder what it is you really want to say? Heck you might as well say it.


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## XSKIER (Dec 24, 2012)

I just wish we would have gotten a closer look at this second P/C before it was run and destroyed. If the quality of the P/C is the culprit, it may be visible right away. This would serve the rest of us well as to see the before and after of any areas of concern. I know it's real tough to get the gist of what's happening inside an engine just by looking at some picks on the web, so we can only go by what we see. I'm just throwing some possible scenarios out there, because it appears that "just caught a ring" wasn't fixed by a second P/C. Will it be fixed by a third P/C of better quality? It may, but I'd be real interested in where the aftermarket and OEM components vary in design. I'm just talking about visible differences, if none it'd be fair to call it a difference in metallurgy or casting process. I'm just after a solution, same as yous guys.


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## Mastermind (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> I just wish we would have gotten a closer look at this second P/C before it was run and destroyed. If the quality of the P/C is the culprit, it may be visible right away. This would serve the rest of us well as to see the before and after of any areas of concern. I know it's real tough to get the gist of what's happening inside an engine just by looking at some picks on the web, so we can only go by what we see. I'm just throwing some possible scenarios out there, because it appears that "just caught a ring" wasn't fixed by a second P/C. Will it be fixed by a third P/C of better quality? It may, but I'd be real interested in where the aftermarket and OEM components vary in design. I'm just talking about visible differences, if none it'd be fair to call it a difference in metallurgy or casting process. I'm just after a solution, same as yous guys.



I work with these things everyday......I've seen some AM cylinder kits that were very good, and I've seen some that were crap. The most important thing is the quality of the piston and rings in the kit. I've used very poor quality cylinders with high quality pistons and rings to build engines that won events against engines built with all OEM parts. As long as the bore is dimensionally correct and the plating is sound the ports and port bevels can be corrected and improved upon, after all, that's what we do when porting an engine for performance. 

What you are looking for is a "smoking gun". That's not gonna be as simple to convey or explain in layman's terms here in a internet forum.......it's much easier to just say "it hung a ring". That is exactly what happened......what caused it to happen is another story. It not being rectified by a second P/C is no surprise. Mark said he got the second kit from the same source. Chances are good that they both came from the very same production run. 

I would bet good money that if a Meteor piston and Caber rings were used in that same cylinder the engine would be living a happy life today.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 24, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> I just wish we would have gotten a closer look at this second P/C before it was run and destroyed. If the quality of the P/C is the culprit, it may be visible right away. This would serve the rest of us well as to see the before and after of any areas of concern. I know it's real tough to get the gist of what's happening inside an engine just by looking at some picks on the web, so we can only go by what we see. I'm just throwing some possible scenarios out there, because it appears that "just caught a ring" wasn't fixed by a second P/C. Will it be fixed by a third P/C of better quality? It may, but I'd be real interested in where the aftermarket and OEM components vary in design. I'm just talking about visible differences, if none it'd be fair to call it a difference in metallurgy or casting process. I'm just after a solution, same as yous guys.



What would some of your ideas of what caused it be? I'm curious.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 24, 2012)

Anthony_Va. said:


> What would some of your ideas of what caused it be? I'm curious.



He hasn't seen enough crappy pistons and cylinders yet to understand what's going on here.......if he sticks around long enough he'll get it.


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## Kenskip1 (Dec 24, 2012)

The filter was clogged so someone leaned it out thinking they were doing the proper thing, then the filter was eventually cleaned it was running way to lean hence your meltdown.This is what it smells like to me, Ken


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## DarthTater (Dec 24, 2012)

barneyrb said:


> That is a strato saw with unique scallops for the strato charge to be induced into the cylinder and it is VERY obvious if it were the wrong piston. I really don't see how those asking if it is backwards can be asking that question if they have ever been inside a strato motor. It just don't make sense.......



Admittedly I know next to nothing about the differences with strato Engines, and I was only speculating that someone "could" have sent the wrong piston, not that it was put in backwards.




barneyrb said:


> And yes, refunds on both kits and I would sorta demand it at this point.........



oh most definitely, particularly with the new photos of the carnage, someone in Quality Control must have been asleep or drunk that day.....


----------



## indiansprings (Dec 24, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> The coating on the screen is likely from the additives in the fuel. Just last week I saw the same exact thing in a hedge trimmer. My local dealer, who is in fact quite knowledgeable, insisted the coating was from the fuel additives. The coating was light gray and hard to see until I pulled the screen, it came off in one piece.
> 
> That piston has seen better days for sure lol. I think you have the correct diagnosis. Not all of the that is alcohol IMHO, if I were a betting man I'd say that fuel has a bit of moisture in it.
> 
> BTW I like the block off plates, good work!!




They mentioned this white residue/ olefins are a by product of cheaper refining techniques in production of ethanol, Stihl has has several carbs sent back to Germany for study, these are the little white floaties that are floating around when you dump saw gas with a high ethanol content in a clear glass jar, several carbs were so clogged they had got down to a literally the size of a pin head and caused the saw to lean out and toast itself, it the saw is relatively new the guy might show the intake screen to a Stihl dealer if their distibutor is Crater they are aware of it and are bringing it up in service school updates


----------



## DarthTater (Dec 24, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> They mentioned this white residue/ olefins are a by product of cheaper refining techniques in production of ethanol, Stihl has has several carbs sent back to Germany for study, these are the little white floaties that are floating around when you dump saw gas with a high ethanol content in a clear glass jar, several carbs were so clogged they had got down to a literally the size of a pin head and caused the saw to lean out and toast itself, it the saw is relatively new the guy might show the intake screen to a Stihl dealer if their distibutor is Crater they are aware of it and are bringing it up in service school updates



All the more reason to be picky about where you buy your fuel at these days.
and not just Gas, but Diesel as well, far to many all to willing to cut corners and intentionally sell people/stations bad fuel.

In some areas I have been hearing it has reached a point where a lot of people take a sample and test it before putting it in the tank/can, its a Major issue particularly for newer lean running engines with all the extra epa garbage on them.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 24, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I think that the ring caught as a result of poor plating at the port edge. It appears to be peeling. Something else to consider is the quality of the rings......did they break from stresses associated with traveling across uneven ports? If the port isn't very symmetrical the rings get hammered back and forth in the groove. Brittle crappy rings will break and hang up in the port.....it goes to hell fast after that and makes it tough to tell what happened first. Another thing that poor port shape causes. Again the rings are being hammered back and forth in the groove and a crappy piston will fail when the ring pin comes loose........#### goes downhill fast and again it's tough to tell what happened first.
> 
> This top end failed because the parts sucked..........Period.



Randy, I was also thinking the cheap rings could have contributed to it. 

Like I said this cyl looked a little bit better then the first, but I still aint touching one again, they shouldnt have to be touched and should run right out of the box no matter what.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 24, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Randy, I was also thinking the cheap rings could have contributed to it.
> 
> Like I said this cyl looked a little bit better then the first, but I still aint touching one again, they shouldnt have to be touched and should run right out of the box no matter what.



I agree completely......and in time they may get there.....if we keep holding their feet to the flame. 

In the near future we may have an opportunity to spec the port placement in a run of aftermarket jugs....at this time we are waiting to see what they look like now and if this supplier can produce a quality bore. I'm looking forward to this......if the quality is there this could be a great thing in my world. I'm not ready to throw my hands in the air and give up yet......in fact, far from it. They have made huge improvements in the last couple of years.....I'm hoping they will work with the end user and continue to improve.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

XSKIER said:


> The caught ring is only the symptom of a problem. The engine was not assembled with a caught ring, broke in with a caught ring, tuned to 12,800 rpm with a caught ring, or run through two tanks with a caught ring. Too much heat, too much clearance, too little clearance, poor metallurgy, poor quality control, or many other things will cause a ring to catch. Simply blaming the engine failure on a caught ring is likely to result in another failure of some sort. Don't be so defensive, I may be an ****** NOOB to arborist site, but I wasn't born yesterday.



Well after reading your posts it's clear you haven't been in many saws, and you're grasping at straws. Not saying that to be an ass or to start something with you. However it's apparent you lack the experience and know how, to make a hypothesis on what caused the failure. IE. Most anyone that has experience working on engines, including saw, can see heat wasn't an issue. Sure it could be any number of compounding issues that caused the ring to catch, all of which are most certainly caused buy poor materials and poor manufacturing. The fact you suggested a ring in these saws could be put in incorrectly, tells us you have little or no experience, with not only the 441, but most any modern saw. 

Again I'm not busting your chops, but it is, what it is. 

Marry Christmas.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I agree completely......and in time they may get there.....if we keep holding their feet to the flame.
> 
> In the near future we may have an opportunity to spec the port placement in a run of aftermarket jugs....at this time we are waiting to see what they look like now and if this supplier can produce a quality bore. I'm looking forward to this......if the quality is there this could be a great thing in my world. I'm not ready to throw my hands in the air and give up yet......in fact, far from it. They have made huge improvements in the last couple of years.....I'm hoping they will work with the end user and continue to improve.



I agree.

However as a people we need to ask the question. Why in the hell can't we invest in ourselves, and our own country? Every time we buy this junk, we're sending our money to countries we often deem as our enemies. We justify this because we save money, but in the end we're giving our money away, as it's not really going back into our own economy. 

Sorry just venting a little.


----------



## DarthTater (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I agree.
> 
> However as a people we need to ask the question. Why in the hell can't we invest in ourselves, and our own country? Every time we buy this junk, we're sending our money to countries we often deem as our enemies. We justify this because we save money, but in the end we're giving our money away, as it's not really going back into our own economy.
> 
> Sorry just venting a little.



Vent or not, you are right.


----------



## XSKIER (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77, 
You're right I don't work on saws, but I do work on two cycle engines from 60cc to 3000cc. Most of them run at three times the power per cc than a saw does. I've been educated by many challenging engine failures, that require a thorough analysis because the cost of failure is so high. Consequently, it's been many years since I've done a top end only repair of a failed piston, I always end up with them back. I use parts from all over the place, and some I've had to reject before assembly, others rejected themselves after a couple of tanks just like this one. I'm not in to modifying any two cycle engines, as I tend to focus on tune and chassis setup. But I'm awfully curious as to what makes these MS441 tick. That ring end locating pin dangerously close to the exhaust kind of worries me. If it were me I would probably try the trick of most saw engine porting gurus here and omit that second ring. 
Again, I'm not trying to challenge any of the forum's expertise, because I lack in this area, but rather bring up some points that have been known to take out two cycle engines in the past. 
Merry Christmas,
-Andy.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I agree.
> 
> However as a people we need to ask the question. Why in the hell can't we invest in ourselves, and our own country? Every time we buy this junk, we're sending our money to countries we often deem as our enemies. We justify this because we save money, but in the end we're giving our money away, as it's not really going back into our own economy.
> 
> Sorry just venting a little.


Umm, wait a minute..... this is a Chinese P&C kit on a German saw, right? What part of it is from the US? It's either US made or it's foreign, and if it's foreign I don't care where it's from. In my business Europe is foreign competition. 

Just killin time before my teenage kids get up for Christmas morning - the stove is lit and Mom & Dad are having coffee. Wasn't too many years ago they were waking us up!


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I agree.
> 
> However as a people we need to ask the question. Why in the hell can't we invest in ourselves, and our own country? Every time we buy this junk, we're sending our money to countries we often deem as our enemies. We justify this because we save money, but in the end we're giving our money away, as it's not really going back into our own economy.
> 
> Sorry just venting a little.



Vent away Brother Andre. I wish we could get these parts from the good ol' US of A.....but you and I both know the the cost of labor, union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, etc, etc.......

You see where this is going. Before long we'll be importing corn because the ground will want a cut.

It's sad, but we as a country have driven the cost of labor so high that we can't afford our own products. 

Hell show me a cylinder kit that's made in the US. :msp_sad:




XSKIER said:


> Andyshine77,
> You're right I don't work on saws, but I do work on two cycle engines from 60cc to 3000cc. Most of them run at three times the power per cc than a saw does. I've been educated by many challenging engine failures, that require a thorough analysis because the cost of failure is so high. Consequently, it's been many years since I've done a top end only repair of a failed piston, I always end up with them back. I use parts from all over the place, and some I've had to reject before assembly, others rejected themselves after a couple of tanks just like this one. I'm not in to modifying any two cycle engines, as I tend to focus on tune and chassis setup. But I'm awfully curious as to what makes these MS441 tick. That ring end locating pin dangerously close to the exhaust kind of worries me. If it were me I would probably try the trick of most saw engine porting gurus here and omit that second ring.
> Again, I'm not trying to challenge any of the forum's expertise, because I lack in this area, but rather bring up some points that have been known to take out two cycle engines in the past.
> Merry Christmas,
> -Andy.



Aftermarket parts for saws aren't nearly as refined as they are for motorcycles and atvs......in time perhaps.


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 25, 2012)

Mark, are you sure you didn't have your underwear on backwards when you put the air filter on? 'Cause that'll cause a failure like that.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> It's sad, but we as a country have driven the cost of labor so high that we can't afford our own products.



What is really sad is if you believe that statement. It goes way deeper with corprate greed, CEO over payments etc, but I digress this stuff really dont have a place in these types of fourms. 

Merry Christmas!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> Mark, are you sure you didn't have your underwear on backwards when you put the air filter on? 'Cause that'll cause a failure like that.



Underwear???


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Vent away Brother Andre. I wish we could get these parts from the good ol' US of A.....but you and I both know the the cost of labor, union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, etc, etc.......
> 
> You see where this is going. Before long we'll be importing corn because the ground will want a cut.
> 
> ...


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 25, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Underwear???



well if you don't wear them you run the risk of zipper.... snag..... OUCH!


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> What is really sad is if you believe that statement. It goes way deeper with corprate greed, CEO over payments etc, but I digress this stuff really dont have a place in these types of fourms.
> 
> Merry Christmas!



Merry Christmas to you too Mark.

I do believe that statement. 

Of course I remember being able to make ends meet on minimum wage. 

I didn't say why our labor rates *MUST* be so high.......I ain't getting started on that.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Merry Christmas to you too Mark.
> 
> I do believe that statement.
> 
> ...



No lets not get started on that crap, that was my whole point, it does no good here at all..


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 25, 2012)

sachsmo said:


>


----------



## Walt41 (Dec 25, 2012)

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I really know...

Merry Christmas Everyone!


----------



## DarthTater (Dec 25, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> The more I learn, the more I realize how little I really know...



doesn't everyone?:cool2:


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Vent away Brother Andre. I wish we could get these parts from the good ol' US of A.....but you and I both know the the cost of labor, union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, etc, etc.......
> 
> You see where this is going. Before long we'll be importing corn because the ground will want a cut.
> 
> ...



I must disagree with you. Profit margins are at an all time record high, it's not about union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, that is a complete cop out and a lie!!!!!!! A lie made to divert peoples attention away from the fact we have a small amount of people in our country steeling our money, and to them it doesn't matter what it does to our country, because if you have enough money it doesn't matter where you live. Many members of my family are in Unions and Union dues are not only worth it, they're not that high anyway. I find it funny how people that aren't in a union act like they know something about them. 

There is a big difference when you compete against a country like Germany vs China. Germany has as many regulations as we do, and the workers actually get paid for the work they do. Standing up for the businesses that send our money and jobs elsewhere in treasonous IMHO.


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Randy, I was also thinking the cheap rings could have contributed to it.



That's right Mark. I know I'm late to the party here but the way it let go reminds me of the first lot of 372XP BB kits I imported. It was a combination of both bad port bevelling and bad rings - around 1/2 of these kits in testing failed using the supplied rings. Swapping to a different manufacturer fixed this problem 100%. I have also torn the top out of pistons exactly the same way you have and simply replaced the piston, added a set of Caber rings, left the cylinder untouched, and have not had any problems since.
The problem you have encountered is therefore either bad rings, bad bevelling, or a combination of both. This is why I always recommend replacing the AM rings with something like Cabers as you just never, ever know. The Chinese are not known for their consistant metallurgy and it doesn't get much more precise than piston rings.
I also had a MS460 BB kit let go in the same way that WAS fitted with Caber rings and on closer inspection it was simply poor bevelling that had left a sharp edge.
I have a 441 kit here that looks really good but at this stage it will probably get fitted to a 441 that had a ported OEM top end let go.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I must disagree with you. Profit margins are at an all time record high, it's not about union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, that is a complete cop out and a lie!!!!!!! A lie made to divert peoples attention away from the fact we have a small amount of people in our country steeling our money, and to them it doesn't matter what it does to our country, because if you have enough money it doesn't matter where you live. Many members of my family are in Unions and Union dues are not only worth it, they're not that high anyway. I find it funny how people that aren't in a union act like they know something about them.
> 
> There is a big difference when you compete against a country like Germany vs China. Germany has as many regulations as we do, and the workers actually get paid for the work they do. Standing up for the businesses that send our money and jobs elsewhere in treasonous IMHO.



Calm down Andre you're gonna wet your pants. 

The cost of living in this country is the problem........that's why wages must be so high. I'm not trying to drag politics into this.......have another beer or something.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> That's right Mark. I know I'm late to the party here but the way it let go reminds me of the first lot of 372XP BB kits I imported. It was a combination of both bad port bevelling and bad rings - around 1/2 of these kits in testing failed using the supplied rings. Swapping to a different manufacturer fixed this problem 100%. I have also torn the top out of pistons exactly the same way you have and simply replaced the piston, added a set of Caber rings, left the cylinder untouched, and have not had any problems since.
> The problem you have encountered is therefore either bad rings, bad bevelling, or a combination of both. This is why I always recommend replacing the AM rings with something like Cabers as you just never, ever know. The Chinese are not known for their consistant metallurgy and it doesn't get much more precise than piston rings.
> I also had a MS460 BB kit let go in the same way that WAS fitted with Caber rings and on closer inspection it was simply poor bevelling that had left a sharp edge.
> I have a 441 kit here that looks really good but at this stage it will probably get fitted to a 441 that had a ported OEM top end let go.



Thanks for your imput Matt, it is good stuff your putting out there. 

Personally, I wont say I wont ever use another AM cyl kit, I have one on a 262XP and its just fine. In fact Super3 tore it down to work a little of his Husky magic on it and he says the port work on it was right up there with the OEM stuff. 

I will say I doubt if I ever put one on someone elses saw though, its not worth the trouble to me.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

albert said:


> The bakers union in the Hostess close down showed how great unions can are.



Please dont show you that you have no clue here in this thread, take that someplace else.


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I must disagree with you. Profit margins are at an all time record high, it's not about union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, that is a complete cop out and a lie!!!!!!! A lie made to divert peoples attention away from the fact we have a small amount of people in our country steeling our money, and to them it doesn't matter what it does to our country, because if you have enough money it doesn't matter where you live. Many members of my family are in Unions and Union dues are not only worth it, they're not that high anyway. I find it funny how people that aren't in a union act like they know something about them.
> 
> There is a big difference when you compete against a country like Germany vs China. Germany has as many regulations as we do, and the workers actually get paid for the work they do. Standing up for the businesses that send our money and jobs elsewhere in treasonous IMHO.



Hi Andre.
Not trying to step on anybody's toes but if I was to use Australia as an example it's not necessarily always corporate greed causing these issues (although quite often it is!). For example unions poked their noses into a lot of factory type work here claiming that employees need pay increases regardless of whether those employees are earning what most of us would consider to be a fair wage. Now nobody should be getting ripped off but unions continually push for increased wages etc as that's their job. Some of the highest pay packets I have ever earned was doing factory work over 15 years ago - funny considering at the time I was university qualified in agricultural science yet none of the paid jobs in my field at the time came close to stacking boxes. The union's job is also to continuously implant the idea that the worker is getting shafted in their workplace, even if they aren't. What I've always found in any workplace I've ever been in is that the laziest workers are the ones most closely aligned with the unions.
Now where I do have a problem however is when somebody who left school at 15, can barely spell their own name, and has a double digit IQ ends up earning more than me simply due to union assistance, not necessarily work ethics or actual work ability. A mate of mine was employed as a senior engineer at a couple of major plastic manufacturing companies in Adelaide simply to work out the efficiencies of running robots instead of workers. The wage increases due to unions actually made it cheaper to run robots so in the long term unions in these cases actually put people out of work. I have seen myself first hand where unions have increased wages to the point that the company has installed palletizing equipment. A union push in one of my old workplaces to have two people stacking boxes instead of one (as it was "too" hard of a job for one person) put around a dozen people out of work. It wasn't simply greed as this company has since gone broke shut it's doors putting hundreds out of work in what most would consider a small town (8,000 odd people).
I've been in unions too as when I first started working they were compulsory, however I've always stuck to the idea that if you are good at what you do you'll always have a job, regardless of whether you are in a union or not.
I'm not sure what it's like in the US but I see people here who are destined for low paying work wanting that 5 bedroom house and two new cars because "Fred" down the road has it. "Fred" doesn't deserve it "that rich bastard" according to them. They don't even think that maybe "Fred" has spent 5 years at university and works 14 hours a day to get what he has. 
Also as far as Germany goes we can certainly learn a thing or two but they are successful at what they do due to efficiency (plus a better work ethic), and that includes replacing people like you or me with machines that do a better job, more consistently, that don't go on strike or whine about wage increases.
Now unions have a place, as there are certainly scumbag employers taking advantage of people, but they also need to know where to draw the line and say enough is enough. When a company is obviously struggling financially, they need to pull their heads in, but more often than not they don't and I've seen unions drive struggling companies into the ground.

If I was to put this into context from a chainsaw perspective then Stihl are greedy as they are a very successful company worldwide yet have still sent manufacturing offshore even though they were making millions. In reality the Chinese made carbs etc were only implemented to make money as the cost of the saws certainly didn't drop.

Anyway, apologies about getting off track but there are many reasons why lots of companies are struggling and it's not always corporate greed. In a lot of cases there isn't as much fat behind the business line as many employees are led to believe.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> Hi Andre.
> Not trying to step on anybody's toes but if I was to use Australia as an example it's not necessarily always corporate greed causing these issues (although quite often it is!). For example unions poked their noses into a lot of factory type work here claiming that employees need pay increases regardless of whether those employees are earning what most of us would consider to be a fair wage. Now nobody should be getting ripped off but unions continually push for increased wages etc as that's their job. Some of the highest pay packets I have ever earned was doing factory work over 15 years ago - funny considering at the time I was university qualified in agricultural science yet none of the paid jobs in my field at the time came close to stacking boxes. The union's job is also to continuously implant the idea that the worker is getting shafted in their workplace, even if they aren't. What I've always found in any workplace I've ever been in is that the laziest workers are the ones most closely aligned with the unions.
> Now where I do have a problem however is when somebody who left school at 15, can barely spell their own name, and has a double digit IQ ends up earning more than me simply due to union assistance, not necessarily work ethics or actual work ability. A mate of mine was employed as a senior engineer at a couple of major plastic manufacturing companies in Adelaide simply to work out the efficiencies of running robots instead of workers. The wage increases due to unions actually made it cheaper to run robots so in the long term unions in these cases actually put people out of work. I have seen myself first hand where unions have increased wages to the point that the company has installed palletizing equipment. A union push in one of my old workplaces to have two people stacking boxes instead of one (as it was "too" hard of a job for one person) put around a dozen people out of work. It wasn't simply greed as this company has since gone broke shut it's doors putting hundreds out of work in what most would consider a small town (8,000 odd people).
> I've been in unions too as when I first started working they were compulsory, however I've always stuck to the idea that if you are good at what you do you'll always have a job, regardless of whether you are in a union or not.
> ...



Sorry Matt, I "liked" your other thread, but wish I had a unlike button for this one. 

These topics are not needed here, there are always people on both sides of these fences.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I must disagree with you. Profit margins are at an all time record high, it's not about union dues, insurances, gubermint rape, that is a complete cop out and a lie!!!!!!! A lie made to divert peoples attention away from the fact we have a small amount of people in our country steeling our money, and to them it doesn't matter what it does to our country, because if you have enough money it doesn't matter where you live. Many members of my family are in Unions and Union dues are not only worth it, they're not that high anyway. I find it funny how people that aren't in a union act like they know something about them.
> 
> There is a big difference when you compete against a country like Germany vs China. Germany has as many regulations as we do, and the workers actually get paid for the work they do. Standing up for the businesses that send our money and jobs elsewhere in treasonous IMHO.



Andre......then have a union shop make you a cylinder!....Their pension fund might just get in the way of you getting something cheap though!.......Hahahahahahaha!


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Sorry Matt, I "liked" your other thread, but wish I had a unlike button for this one.
> 
> These topics are not needed here, there are always people on both sides of these fences.



Sorry Mark as my intention is not to derail this thread but simply to put another side of the debate across, even if you may not agree with it. I disagree with true corporate greed as much as the next guy but the whole situation is a lot more complex than that and I simply put a few other points of view out there for people to chew on.


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 25, 2012)

I'm feeling the


Merry Christmas!

Y'all are like a dysfunctional family.

No wonder I feel so at home here.


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Oh yeah. Merry Christmas everybody! It's 1:20pm on the 26th here. We had Christmas yesterday.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

Much truth in what you said Matt. People often focus on on thing without seeing the bigger picture. Unions like with most thing in life are far from perfect. We do have problems with corporate greed, and that is a fact. With that said the vast majority are relatively fair and honest. Like you pointed out many people in high position "CEO's" fall into the maximum profit trap, and end up collapsing a corporation or business for their own personal gain, and often end up smelling like roses.

Nevertheless, good info on the AM stuff. As of right now it really doesn't seem logical to even bother with them. Sad thing is they've had plenty of time to correct the issues, which leads me to question, do they even have the ability to fix the issues? One would think yes, but as of now the answer is quite clearly no.


----------



## albert (Dec 25, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Please dont show you that you have no clue here in this thread, take that someplace else.



I have more than a clue what I'm talking about. I only responded to what was posted. That poster has his opinion, you have yours, and I have mine. This thread probalbly isn't the best place for these discussions, but it's not right to let some voice their opion and berate another for theirs.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

albert said:


> I have more than a clue what I'm talking about. I only responded to what was posted. That poster has his opinion, you have yours, and I have mine. This thread probalbly isn't the best place for these discussions, but it's not right to let some voice their opion and berate another for theirs.



No problem, lets get back to our saws.:msp_smile:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 25, 2012)

albert said:


> I have more than a clue what I'm talking about. I only responded to what was posted. That poster has his opinion, you have yours, and I have mine. This thread probalbly isn't the best place for these discussions, but it's not right to let some voice their opion and berate another for theirs.



Fwiw, I have tried to stop the rest of it as well, I knew it was coming soon as Randy opened up his trap about this stuff... 

If this BS is what you guys want to talk about, fine, I'm outta here.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> I'm feeling the
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas!
> ...



Yeah we might fuss among ourselves but if any of these guys find themselves in need I'll do what I can to help. 



Modifiedmark said:


> Fwiw, I have tried to stop the rest of it as well, I knew it was coming soon as Randy opened up his trap about this stuff...
> 
> If this BS is what you guys want to talk about, fine, I'm outta here.



Oh now it's a trap huh? 

Sorry for derailing your thread Mark. I'll try to keep my trap shut.........maybe. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## gmax (Dec 25, 2012)

All the political BS should leave, it has no place in this topic


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Nevertheless, good info on the AM stuff. As of right now it really doesn't seem logical to even bother with them. Sad thing is they've had plenty of time to correct the issues, which leads me to question, do they even have the ability to fix the issues? One would think yes, but as of now the answer is quite clearly no.



The sad part is Andy that some manufacturers HAVE fixed these issues it's just that the kits having problems are more than likely from the poorer (and cheaper) manufacturers.
The better kits from the better manufacturers actually cost around 20-25% more than from the cheaper suppliers.
For example I had 44 kits come in this week and I am 99% confident that you could run through them and find not one significant fault. I'm not doing this as an advertisement for business as I have since put Randy (watsonr) onto my exact same supplier and have even said he's welcome to contact me to weed out which kits have, and haven't had issues. I'm not a big player in the AM P&C supply chain at all but simply do not have the time to replace faulty kits (and therefore also potentially effect my reputation) so did a LOT of homework and spent a lot of money prior to selling a single kit. Simply replacing faulty kits (like the larger sponsors on AS do) does not mean good customer service in my book. Good customer service actually involves doing your homework to prevent these faulty kits being sold in the first place.

For example the company that makes the best kits I've seen which a number of members here have seen and/or purchased also supply the following kits...

1)BBN MS260 44.7mm
2)MS440 (Nikasil plated)
3)MS460 (Nikasil plated)
4)MS441 (Mikasil plated)
5)MS660 (Nisasil plated)
6)BBN MS660 (Nisasil plated)
8)BBN 372XP (Nikasil plated)

I also had some BBN6401 kits that were excellent (you own one ) from a different manufacturer to the above however future kits that were supplied were crap (and completely different) so I haven't imported any since until I can be assured by my supplier that they are the same as the original kits. In fact I still have 4 here that are nowhere near the quality of that original, first batch.

If the kits people are looking at are not on this list then it's simply buyer beware. However simply being on this list does not guarantee good quality either as a number of manufacturers are doing these same model kits with variable quality. A good start is a brown, cardboard box as that is what the above kits come packed in.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> The sad part is Andy that some manufacturers HAVE fixed these issues it's just that the kits having problems are more than likely from the poorer (and cheaper) manufacturers.
> The better kits from the better manufacturers actually cost around 20-25% more than from the cheaper suppliers.
> For example I had 44 kits come in this week and I am 99% confident that you could run through them and find not one significant fault. I'm not doing this as an advertisement for business as I have since put Randy (watsonr) onto my exact same supplier and have even said he's welcome to contact me to weed out which kits have, and haven't had issues. I'm not a big player in the AM P&C supply chain at all but simply do not have the time to replace faulty kits (and therefore also potentially effect my reputation) so did a LOT of homework and spent a lot of money prior to selling a single kit. Simply replacing faulty kits (like the larger sponsors on AS do) does not mean good customer service in my book. Good customer service actually involves doing your homework to prevent these faulty kits being sold in the first place.
> 
> ...



The BB372 kit I got from you was very nice. As soon as I get all the bits together I'll be doing a detailed thread on that one.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

Matt that BB kit is definitely the nicest one I've seen to date. I still plan on doing something with it, maybe even sending it back to you after a little work if I feel it runs strong enough.


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The BB372 kit I got from you was very nice. As soon as I get all the bits together I'll be doing a detailed thread on that one.



Thanks Randy. Once these cheaper, crappier kits get weeded out then the world will be a better place  I've seen my fair share of them over the years. Still have a number of them sitting in my shed destined to gather dust.


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Matt that BB kit is definitely the nicest one I've seen to date. I still plan on doing something with it, maybe even sending it back to you after a little work if I feel it runs strong enough.



No need to send it back Andy. I promise to not tell anybody if you run it and like it


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 25, 2012)

Bottom line......they're 1/3 the cost......so you have 3 chances to make one work. Should be a piece of cake!


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Bottom line......they're 1/3 the cost......so you have 3 chances to make one work. Should be a piece of cake!



Hey on a side note Dennis are many guys in the true racing scene over in the states actually running AM kits? I know a few Aussies are starting to run them based on cost alone and are generally quite happy with the results. These are on saws that you would probably class as wood's ported though


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> Hey on a side note Dennis *are many guys in the true racing scene over in the states actually running AM kits?* I know a few Aussies are starting to run them based on cost alone and are genarally quite happy with the results. These are on saws that you would probably class as wood's ported though



I've heard some rumors. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> No need to send it back Andy. I promise to not tell anybody if you run it and like it



 

Well if everything works out, I'd like you to run it a bit. Keep in mind I may very well destroy the kit during the my little experiment.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Well if everything works out, I'd like you to run it a bit. Keep in mind I may very well destroy the kit during the my little experiment.



I've been able to test numbers in the 372 I wouldn't try before because of the price of the jug.


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Well if everything works out, I'd like you to run it a bit. Keep in mind I may very well destroy the kit during the my little experiment.



Well head forth young man and experiment away


----------



## gmax (Dec 25, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Bottom line......they're 1/3 the cost......so you have 3 chances to make one work. Should be a piece of cake!



More like 1/4 the cost down under..I like the odds


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> Hey on a side note Dennis are many guys in the true racing scene over in the states actually running AM kits? I know a few Aussies are starting to run them based on cost alone and are genarally quite happy with the results. These are on saws that you would probably class as wood's ported though



Most cylinders used for racing have the head cut off, welded on, and re-nicisiled.....I personally haven't used a (AF)one, but I would, and have thought about it. Reason I haven't is I perfer bikesaws.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Dec 25, 2012)

I wouldn't have a problem running an AF cylinder, But I'd like to have a nice slug and rings to go with it. In my weak mind that's the biggest un-fixable problem I see with buying a kit. The ports can be worked on a bit, but it's hard to make a piston better.....


----------



## MCW (Dec 25, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Most cylinders used for racing have the head cut off, welded on, and re-nicisiled.....I personally haven't used a (AF)one, but I would, and have thought about it. Reason I haven't is I perfer bikesaws.



Well how about building a bikesaw from an aftermarket Chinese bike? 



komatsuvarna said:


> I wouldn't have a problem running an AF cylinder, But I'd like to have a nice slug and rings to go with it. In my weak mind that's the biggest un-fixable problem I see with buying a kit. The ports can be worked on a bit, but it's hard to make a piston better.....



Can I ask how many aftermarket pistons you've seen fail that hasn't been a direct result of poor rings, port bevels, or a circlip letting go? I don't thin the pistons are the issue. As far as ported saws I've seen a fair few OEM pistons let go when somebody has gotten too excited with a grinder but it's not the piston's fault.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Dec 25, 2012)

MCW said:


> Can I ask how many aftermarket pistons you've seen fail that hasn't been a direct result of poor rings, port bevels, or a circlip letting go? I don't thin the pistons are the issue. As far as ported saws I've seen a fair few OEM pistons let go when somebody has gotten too excited with a grinder but it's not the piston's fault.



Sure can Matt. None , but I always use OEM rings, clips, and pin if possible. I've probably installed less than a handful AM pistons honestly, but AFAIK they are all still running. Im just an OEM guy myself as long as they are still available, but I really have no other reason other than thats what I prefer.

On the other hand, I have personally seen a few AM pistons that I wouldn't think about installing to see how long they would last....


----------



## XSKIER (Dec 25, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Fwiw, I have tried to stop the rest of it as well, I knew it was coming soon as Randy opened up his trap about this stuff...
> 
> If this BS is what you guys want to talk about, fine, I'm outta here.



So mark, Is the owner of the saw ready to spend the dough on an OEM P/C? New or used? Is that MS460 fixed yet? I'm still curious the outcome, just not into politics enough to keep up with these guys.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

Well, if were done with the problems of the worlds economys, the US cost of living, and the union bashing lets get on with the problems at hand. 

I made the call to the vendor of the cyls this morning as was told that since this happened twice in a row on the same saw, there has to be some other problem with the saw itself and not the fault of there P/C. 

So at this point I'm on the hook for two of these junks. I'm not going to go on anymore about it, since saying much about a site sponsor is frowned upon here, but will say, buyer beware. 

To answer another question, a new OEM P/C is supposed to be ordered and will get put on the saw as soon as it gets here. I am quite sure that will end the problems for it as long as its kept in tune and fed 10% or less ethanol fuel.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 26, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Well, if were done with the problems of the worlds economys, the US cost of living, and the union bashing lets get on with the problems at hand.
> 
> I made the call to the vendor of the cyls this morning as was told that since this happened twice in a row on the same saw, there has to be some other problem with the saw itself and not the fault of there P/C.
> 
> ...



I'll say something......that's complete bull #### and crappy customer service.


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 26, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> To answer another question, a new OEM P/C is supposed to be ordered and will get put on the saw as soon as it gets here. I am quite sure that will end the problems for it as long as its kept in tune and fed 10% or less ethanol fuel.



Will be interesting to see. Keep me updated for sure. 

Never used a 441 afm cyl but have on others. So how long was the 441 afm cyl's lasting before failure?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'll say something......that's complete bull #### and crappy customer service.



Yeah I was shocked as well, not even a refund for one of them. I was polite too! Tried hard not to be insulted at it being my fault. 



JeremiahJohnson said:


> Will be interesting to see. Keep me updated for sure.
> 
> Never used a 441 afm cyl but have on others. So how long was the 441 afm cyl's lasting before failure?



Kev the first one lasted halfway through the first cut with it here in my back yard, while the second one made it out to the job and almost till the second tank was dry....

There is nothing interesting to me about the OEM stuff, it will fix it good as new. There is nothing else wrong with this saw. It got melted down with some bad fuel and fuel restrictions. Brgs seals etc all great, passed vac and pressure test as well as I have ever seen.


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## Mhusby (Dec 26, 2012)

*I have seen this before.*



Modifiedmark said:


> Very easy to see why they fail, the rings are catching the exhaust port, not hard to understand. You cant see that?
> 
> As to why, like I said, I dont care, it shouldnt be my problem or place to figure there junk out for them.



I have seen this before when I was a diesel engine failure analysis man. Detroit Diesel had this same problem. It is called Port Edge Clipping, caused by the piston ring ends not being bent in if you will. The rings were made wrong, which caused the failure. This happened in the late 70's or early 80's.


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 26, 2012)

MCW said:


> are many guys in the true racing scene over in the states actually running AM kits?



Some are using the afm BB372 with stroked cranks and not stroked. Even the 090 66mm afm getting used with wiseco 66mm piston on 3120's.  Some want only the oem 090 cylinders for their builds, sent off to match piston and replate.


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## sachsmo (Dec 26, 2012)

Ok you took the top off two aftermarket pistons?

I know the bottoms are pretty robust, but seems there could be some collateral damage to the crank/rod/bearings/case?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 26, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> I made the call to the vendor of the cyls this morning as was told that since this happened twice in a row on the same saw, there has to be some other problem with the saw itself and *not the fault of there P/C*.
> 
> So at this point I'm on the hook for two of these junks. I'm not going to go on anymore about it, since saying much about a site sponsor is frowned upon here, but will say, buyer beware.



Wow. I hope you plan on calling them back when the OEM fixes it!


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 26, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Wow. I hope you plan on calling them back when the OEM fixes it!



At this point no one knows that an OEM will fix it eh?



opcorn:


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 26, 2012)

We'll see. It snagged a ring, period.


----------



## barneyrb (Dec 26, 2012)

Mark, I for one would like to know who refused your money back because with as many parts as I purchase I would not use them at all. If they won't stand behind an obvious manufacturing defect and instead blame it on the user (which I consider you to be way above the average builder here) I'm not taking that chance.

Give me a call sometime this week.........


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> Ok you took the top off two aftermarket pistons?
> 
> I know the bottoms are pretty robust, but seems there could be some collateral damage to the crank/rod/bearings/case?





sachsmo said:


> At this point no one knows that an OEM will fix it eh?
> 
> 
> 
> opcorn:



Quit trying to stir stuff. I know you have a hard time with that though. 


The new OEM will fix it, there is nothing and I mean nothing else wrong with it.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Wow. I hope you plan on calling them back when the OEM fixes it!



We'll see, I really dont think there worth the trouble. Typical BS seller.


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 26, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Quit trying to stir stuff. I know you have a hard time with that though.
> 
> 
> The new OEM will fix it, there is nothing and I mean nothing else wrong with it.





Modifiedmark said:


> We'll see, I really dont think there worth the trouble. Typical BS seller.



Do we not only seak the truth grasshopper?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> Do we not only seak the truth grasshopper?



No you only seek to stir it up. You know better.


----------



## Walt41 (Dec 26, 2012)

I've got to say, a lot of the frustration here comes from having to do the same job over and over all while mentally calculating your losses. Being poked by carnival guessers with the ridiculous stick doesn't help the process either. Mark, you are a good guy for posting your less than optimal results here and keeping your wits about you, most of us just want to learn and possibly avoid any future pitfalls of the aftermarket world, I look forward to seeing the final repair.


----------



## old-cat (Dec 26, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> I've got to say, a lot of the frustration here comes from having to do the same job over and over all while mentally calculating your losses. Being poked by carnival guessers with the ridiculous stick doesn't help the process either. Mark, you are a good guy for posting your less than optimal results here and keeping your wits about you, most of us just want to learn and possibly avoid any future pitfalls of the aftermarket world, I look forward to seeing the final repair.



I totally agree! I can NOT afford malfunctions like that, things have to go right the FIRST try!


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 26, 2012)

Mhusby said:


> I have seen this before when I was a diesel engine failure analysis man. Detroit Diesel had this same problem. It is called Port Edge Clipping, caused by the piston ring ends not being bent in if you will. The rings were made wrong, which caused the failure. This happened in the late 70's or early 80's.



I'm eating a bite of lunch and now you have given me something else to chew on. Off to do some research...thanks for your input.


----------



## Chris-PA (Dec 26, 2012)

Mark, you are dealing with this graciously, which is the only bright spot in this whole thread. The rest of it is an embarrassing display of bad behavior.


----------



## 056 kid (Dec 26, 2012)

Operator error all the way


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> I've got to say, a lot of the frustration here comes from having to do the same job over and over all while mentally calculating your losses. Being poked by carnival guessers with the ridiculous stick doesn't help the process either. Mark, you are a good guy for posting your less than optimal results here and keeping your wits about you, most of us just want to learn and possibly avoid any future pitfalls of the aftermarket world, I look forward to seeing the final repair.




Thanks Walt, I turned over a new leaf, we will see how long it lasts. 




old-cat said:


> I totally agree! I can NOT afford malfunctions like that, things have to go right the FIRST try!



Yes it is nice to know what not to buy and where not to buy from as well. 




WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Mark, you are dealing with this graciously, which is the only bright spot in this whole thread. The rest of it is an embarrassing display of bad behavior.




I agree with the last part.




056 kid said:


> Operator error all the way



Go away, the kids threads are down the hall to the left...


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 26, 2012)

barneyrb said:


> Mark, I for one would like to know who refused your money back because with as many parts as I purchase I would not use them at all. If they won't stand behind an obvious manufacturing defect and instead blame it on the user (which I consider you to be way above the average builder here) I'm not taking that chance.
> 
> Give me a call sometime this week.........



Will do on the call. 

I should clairify that the vendor did make mention of sending me yet another P/C in light of a refund. I'm afraid I had to decline that generous offer.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Dec 26, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Will do on the call.
> 
> I should clairify that the vendor did make mention of sending me yet another P/C in light of a refund. I'm afraid I had to decline that generous offer.



would it be worth getting to slide one of the rings in and see if the rings fit right ?, the company may have just got some blem rings ,pistons and jugs may be ok


----------



## DarthTater (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> I made the call to the vendor of the cyls this morning as was told that since this happened twice in a row on the same saw, there has to be some other problem with the saw itself and not the fault of there P/C.



BullSh!t!!!:rant:

Sadly though this is the New Norm with Vendors of all kinds, I'd still be a thorn in their side about it myself, never know you might actually get some traction.
(cant hurt at this stage)


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 27, 2012)

DarthTater said:


> BullSh!t!!!:rant:
> 
> Sadly though this is the New Norm with Vendors of all kinds, I'd still be a thorn in their side about it myself, never know you might actually get some traction.
> (cant hurt at this stage)



Y'know i've done business with the vendor in question. 

And this thread or any other will not stop me from doing business in the future.

Sorry for your luck Mark, but sometimes you just get a saw that is jinxed!


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> Y'know i've done business with the vendor in question.
> 
> And this thread or any other will not stop me from doing business in the future.
> 
> Sorry for your luck Mark, but sometimes you just get a saw that is jinxed!



Have you ever added anything of value to any of the threads you pop into? Just askin. Seems you just pop in them to blow off at the mouth and try to stir trouble. 

I never went out of the way to name this vendor and I sure didnt try to persuade anyone from doing business with them. Feel free to spend your money where ever you want to, 

I just stated the facts of my business with them and was very happy with them till this second top end took a dump. 

I was ready to give in to the fact that since I cleaned the first one up that all liability was on me for that one, no problem there, but when the second one broke after it was installed just the way that they instructed, straight out of the box I feel that they should stand behind there product that they sell. No more no less. 

Dont be sorry for my luck, I knew what I was getting into with this AM top end,I just hoped for the best and was ready for the worst, which is what I got. This saw is not jinxed, its just these particular AM top ends that are being sold are junk. Period.


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Have you ever added anything of value to any of the threads you pop into? Just askin. Seems you just pop in them to blow off at the mouth and try to stir trouble.
> 
> I never went out of the way to name this vendor and I sure didnt try to persuade anyone from doing business with them. Feel free to spend your money where ever you want to,
> 
> ...





Damn Mark that hurt.

"The true measure of a Mans character is more how he deals with failure. Far more than how he deals with success"


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

sachsmo said:


> Damn Mark that hurt.
> 
> "The true measure of a Mans character is more how he deals with failure. Far more than how he deals with success"



"Who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying."


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

When a company or an individual compromises one time, whether it's on price or principle, the next compromise is right around the corner .


"Glass, china, and reputation are easily cracked and never well mended."


----------



## DarthTater (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> When a company or an individual compromises one time, whether it's on price or principle, the next compromise is right around the corner .
> 
> 
> "Glass, china, and reputation are easily cracked and never well mended."



Hit the nail on the head there Mark!:cool2:


----------



## komatsuvarna (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> When a company or an individual compromises one time, whether it's on price or principle, the next compromise is right around the corner .
> 
> 
> "*Glass, china, and reputation are easily cracked and never well mended.*"



Truer words have never been spoken. The bad always travels faster and longer than the good too!


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> When a company or an individual compromises one time, whether it's on price or principle, the next compromise is right around the corner .
> 
> 
> *"Glass, china, and reputation are easily cracked and never well mended."*



Can I use that quote?????

It a damn good one for sure.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 27, 2012)

"Real World Warranty"......3 seconds or out the door!


----------



## komatsuvarna (Dec 27, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> "Real World Warranty"......3 seconds or out the door!



Thats the ''outta sight warranty'' here. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Can I use that quote?????
> 
> It a damn good one for sure.



Heck yeah, I pulled it of the internet anyway. Sachsmo isnt the only one who knows how to do that.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> "Real World Warranty"......3 seconds or out the door!





komatsuvarna said:


> Thats the ''outta sight warranty'' here. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Yep warrantied to work till it breaks.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Yep warrantied to work till it breaks.




OK then!........Sounds like you got your moneys worth.......Twice!:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## LFTS1986 (Dec 27, 2012)

*ms441*

Good chance for you to upgrade ! In my opinion though the ms441 is better than the ms460


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> OK then!........Sounds like you got your moneys worth.......Twice!:hmm3grin2orange:



According to the seller, thats correct. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

LFTS1986 said:


> Good chance for you to upgrade ! In my opinion though the ms441 is better than the ms460



Its not my saw....


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> According to the seller, thats correct. :hmm3grin2orange:



Where can I buy these kits?......I'd like to try the 3 cylinder package!


----------



## Fifelaker (Dec 27, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Where can I buy these kits?......I'd like to try the 3 cylinder package!



A Kaw H1 Bikesaw +100,000,000,000


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 27, 2012)

Mark,

Sorry if I missed it, but what brand were the kits or was there even a brand?


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> Mark,
> 
> Sorry if I missed it, but what brand were the kits or was there even a brand?



Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that. 

Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer". 

The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

Fifelaker said:


> A Kaw H1 Bikesaw +100,000,000,000



All good except you would still be about 288cc short.


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. *You old enough to remember that? *Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".
> 
> The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:



I'll take your word for it.


----------



## mweba (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".



Not old enough to have witnessed the white cans but I do remember the "Eagle" brand sold at the local grocer. Stated no brewery just bottle for so and so. Awe the good ole days of begging the early grads to buy beer.


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 27, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".
> 
> The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:



My old man drank the generic beer in the brown stubbies. I was about 8 or 9 and I swiped a bottle from him one time. It wasn't so bad.


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 27, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> My old man drank the generic beer in the brown stubbies. I was about 8 or 9 and I swiped a bottle from him one time. It wasn't so bad.



You hillbillies start early.


----------



## Fish (Dec 27, 2012)

I remember when I was in college, I moved back home for a while. Came home one night and my dad had found my six pack of St. Pauli girl beer I had for the weekend, I fussed a bit, he said he would get another 6 for me the next day.

That next night he had in the fridge a six pack of Kroger Cost Cutter beer, all it said was Beer
and the Kroger scissors on it in a bright yellow can, he thought that it was real funny, of course
he liked Schlitz and Weidiman....


----------



## ol'homey (Dec 27, 2012)

What could possibly be wrong with the bottom end, intake, or fuel system that would cause the top end to catch a ring in the exhaust port? I've seen quite a few scored pistons, seized rings etc due to straight gas, lean carb, air leaks, excessive cylinder temps etc. but I've never seen an OEM p/c kit ever snag a ring in the exhaust port. IOW if you paid me to do something to the bottom end to make the top end snag a ring I wouldn't know where to begin. If the rest of the saw can't make the top end snag a ring, then you're left with the top end itself. I just don't see how this could be anything other than a defective p/c kit. Since all the kits are made the same it should be no surprise that two failed back to back. Every one of them should fail.

PS- Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is excessive clearance between the piston and cylinder. That would allow the rings to stick out further to make a seal with the cylinder wall, making them more likely to catch in a port. Also the piston rocking back and forth in the cylinder will put increased stress on the rings which could cause them to break and catch in a port. My quick and dirty clearance test is to TAKE THE RINGS OFF THE PISTON, wipe down the p and c to remove all oil, then drop the p into the c, place thumb over the spark plug hole and turn the c upside down. If clearance is good the p will hold a vacuum and not move. If the piston falls out you've got problems.


----------



## Modifiedmark (Dec 27, 2012)

ol'homey said:


> What could possibly be wrong with the bottom end, intake, or fuel system that would cause the top end to catch a ring in the exhaust port? I've seen quite a few scored pistons, seized rings etc due to straight gas, lean carb, air leaks, excessive cylinder temps etc. but I've never seen an OEM p/c kit ever snag a ring in the exhaust port. IOW if you paid me to do something to the bottom end to make the top end snag a ring I wouldn't know where to begin. If the rest of the saw can't make the top end snag a ring, then you're left with the top end itself. I just don't see how this could be anything other than a defective p/c kit. Since all the kits are made the same it should be no surprise that two failed back to back. Every one of them should fail.
> 
> PS- Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is excessive clearance between the piston and cylinder. That would allow the rings to stick out further to make a seal with the cylinder wall, making them more likely to catch in a port. Also the piston rocking back and forth in the cylinder will put increased stress on the rings which could cause them to break and catch in a port. My quick and dirty clearance test is to TAKE THE RINGS OFF THE PISTON, wipe down the p and c to remove all oil, then drop the p into the c, place thumb over the spark plug hole and turn the c upside down. If clearance is good the p will hold a vacuum and not move. If the piston falls out you've got problems.



Sing it brother!!!


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 27, 2012)

I guess I'm probably shortsighted because I tried a few different af pistons and p&c combos early on and got burnt. This was probably 8 or so years ago that I personally used them when AIP and Golf were the only options. Back when i was rebuilding 024's, there wasn't many if any options to buy a piston so I tried golf pistons. In order to get them to fit the width of the small end of the connecting rod I would need to install a grinding wheel on my dremel after I stuffed the shaft of the dremel in the wristpin hole, and I would try to so call methodically (lol) grind away at each side until it fit. 

However, I did recommend some BB kits to some people I know, and they got burnt also. I personally tried an early 046 bb kit and it launched within the first 30 seconds. I sent another 372 bb kit to a buddy who ports saws. He put a popup piston on it and logged with it about 60 hours before the top of the piston ended up crumbling. He ended up sending the cylinder to US chrome and had it renikasilled and it has worked great since. 

Now on the other hand, I have had personally great luck with Meteor pistons and caber rings. 

Like I say most of my AF experience is pretty outdated, but I still seem to see the same quality control problems today that occurred 8-10 years ago. I personally see no reason to not buy a good used cylinder and buy a meteor piston vs going the AF market route. 

To each their own, but that is my personal opinion.


----------



## MCW (Dec 29, 2012)

ol'homey said:


> Since all the kits are made the same it should be no surprise that two failed back to back. Every one of them should fail.



Not necessarily as port bevelling can vary from kit to kit depending on the quality of the kit. Some if not all have bevelling finished by hand and some of the bevellers must be blind.


----------



## ol'homey (Dec 29, 2012)

Good info MCW. That helps explain why results vary with these AM kits from "still working fine" to "oh crap it caught a ring the first time out". Since they're made in China probably some poor 10 yr old old with a dremel doing the beveling who may or may not know what the part he's handling is or is used for. Well that's it for AM p/c kits for me until i hear the QC has gotten a lot better. I've installed a few AM kits in the past mostly on the Stihl BR400 and 420 blowers run by the landscapers at 7500 rpm all day every day. After a couple years of commercial use the piston would get so worn out you could hear it rattle around in the cylinder. Most of the time I would just put in a new OEM piston/rings and it was good for another couple years. If the nicasil was messed up I would put on an AM p/c (I think they were from Greece?). Never had a problem either way and never did anything to the kits other than normal install. I now know it was just dumb luck that I didn't have AM p/c kits blowing up all over town! More recently the landscapers moved to the BR600. No ports to worry about beveling or catching a ring on. Unfortunately they tend to drop the exhaust valve which most of the time destroys the cylinder/case leaving you with an expensive paperweight not worth the cost to repair.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 29, 2012)

bcorradi said:


> Like I say most of my AF experience is pretty outdated, but I still seem to see the same quality control problems today that occurred 8-10 years ago. I personally see no reason to not buy a good used cylinder and buy a meteor piston vs going the AF market route.



And there in lies the rub. We've been waiting for years for them to get these things right.


----------



## DarthTater (Dec 29, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> And there in lies the rub. We've been waiting for years for them to get these things right.



not meaning to get into the political bs again but in that case it is high time to quit "waiting" for them to get it right and get people who know what they are doing back to making things right the first time.

that is something that is a pet peeve of mine, their are extremely few true "Craftsmen" (or Artisans if you prefer) anymore, Personally I don't mind Paying the extra (even when I can't really afford the extra) when I get top quality in exchange.

Quality always pays of in the end IMHO!:cool2:


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 29, 2012)

DarthTater said:


> not meaning to get into the political bs again but in that case it is high time to quit "waiting" for them to get it right and get people who know what they are doing back to making things right the first time.
> 
> that is something that is a pet peeve of mine, their are extremely few true "Craftsmen" (or Artisans if you prefer) anymore, Personally I don't mind Paying the extra (even when I can't really afford the extra) when I get top quality in exchange.
> 
> Quality always pays of in the end IMHO!:cool2:



There is a simple way to make sure it's right the first time and you will have to pay a little extra.

Call Randy.


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## MCW (Dec 30, 2012)

ol'homey said:


> I now know it was just dumb luck that I didn't have AM p/c kits blowing up all over town!



Not the case at all. As mentioned there are bad, average, and good kits. With the good kits I could near guarantee you'd be fine, with the bad kits I can guarantee you won't!
Too many AM kits get sold to be all bad and if they were all crap people would have stopped buying them years ago.
Remember that most people only care if a saw cuts wood but the last thing we need is people second guessing AM kits due to some small flaw that would otherwise go unnoticed for years.
When the top gets torn off a piston well that is indeed, sort of noticeable 
I've sold 100's of kits with only a couple of complaints/returns and that was on kits I hadn't checked properly before sale. I think it is very important to check any kit going out. OEM kits get checked before sale but their quality control is done in house. Unfortunately the customer generally has to do the QC with AM kits unless the seller checks them beforehand.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 30, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> There is a simple way to make sure it's right the first time and you will have to pay a little extra.
> 
> Call Randy.



No, you should be able to bolt and go. Period. Buying a cheap kit and then paying someone like Randy makes little economic sense at all if someone is just wanting to get a saw back in stock running service. Might just as well pay for OEM up front. 





MCW said:


> Not the case at all. As mentioned there are bad, average, and good kits. With the good kits I could near guarantee you'd be fine, with the bad kits I can guarantee you won't!
> Too many AM kits get sold to be all bad and if they were all crap people would have stopped buying them years ago.
> Remember that most people only care if a saw cuts wood but the last thing we need is people second guessing AM kits due to some small flaw that would otherwise go unnoticed for years.
> When the top gets torn off a piston well that is indeed, sort of noticeable
> I've sold 100's of kits with only a couple of complaints/returns and that was on kits I hadn't checked properly before sale. I think it is very important to check any kit going out. OEM kits get checked before sale but their quality control is done in house. Unfortunately the customer generally has to do the QC with AM kits unless the seller checks them beforehand.



Matt, you keep saying this and I believe you. Thing is how does this personally do me any good? 

Where can I get a AM kit that has been personally checked over by someone like you? Where is a list of AM thats safe to buy and one for AM not to buy? Just asking.


BTW the 441's owner came here yesterday with a new OEM Stihl piston as thats what the dealer ordered insead of a Piston and cyl kit!! Our local Stihl dealers are the best. (sarcasm noted)


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## thomas1 (Dec 30, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> No, you should be able to bolt and go. Period. Buying a cheap kit and then paying someone like Randy makes little economic sense at all if someone is just wanting to get a saw back in stock running service. Might just as well pay for OEM up front.



Not necessarily, Mark. 

Say an aftermarket p/c kit is $100 and an OEM one is $350. If Randy (Mastermind) is charging $200 for a "blueprinted" kit that's still saving $150. Lots of people say they're willing to pay more for an aftermarket kit that is known to be good, Randy is providing those. 

He is just doing the QC that the manufacturer *should* be doing themselves. Until they have QC up to snuff on the other side of the world there is a third party QC company involved. People say they are willing to pay more for QC, all the better if that QC is in America.

I don't think Randy is claiming to do anything that anyone else can't do themselves, but what he is doing is taking the liability.


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## sachsmo (Dec 30, 2012)

I've been trying to avoid this thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but.

Since it's all out here anyways;

Mark,

do you really think Stihl (or any other ***)

Will warranty any part that was not installed by one of their accredited repair facilities????????????????????


Even in the snowballs chance, would they replace after someone modified it?


It's a biotch, but hell I've bought cylinder heads for $3000 a pair that needed work!


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## indiansprings (Dec 30, 2012)

It's sad that a company that has the financial ability doesn't make the investment (take Bailey's for example) to hire a top shelf engineer with a back ground in cylinder mfg and place him in Tawain and let him or a team of two or three develop a high quality line of plug and play replacement cylinders/pistons, there is a huge market. Hell, I sell Stihl oem and I think the mark up is way to steep on the oem replacements, I'd venture to say Husky is the same ball park. There is a fortune to be made on quality replacements.
The problem is pricing, I recently priced a very nice, almost pristine OEM Stihl 660 Mahle cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin and rod bearing for 160.00 shipped anywhere in the continental US and the customer thought it was on the high side, and I totally respect his opinion, but were is the point at what people will pay for aftermarket kits, a new 660 mahle piston/cylinder runs 330.00, with no rod bearing. You can't have oem quality and expect to pay 100-125.00 a kit.
I feel for you Mark you must have some boneheads in your local Stihl dealership, they are not all that way.


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## hoeyrd2110 (Dec 30, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> You can't have oem quality and expect to pay 100-125.00 a kit.



if they charged maybe $200 for an OEM kit which they would still make money off of it would be a no brainer. a factory ps540 dolmar kit is $180...thats a no brainer. but if the kit was say 250+ it just wouldn't be worth it. if dolmar can charge 180 for a mahle p/c kit why are the rest of them jacking the prices up? there would be no aftermarket if they were competitively priced.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 30, 2012)

hoeyrd2110 said:


> if dolmar can charge 180 for a mahle p/c kit why are the rest of them jacking the prices up?



Because people will pay it!.....thinking the quality is worth the money......but is it really?:msp_sneaky:


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 30, 2012)

The "Blueprinted" kit I sell is $200.00 shipped. 

I check port bevels, smooth rough casting lines and flash. I also match the exhaust flange to the muffler (a pet peeve of Bradley's). The squish is also set at .025 on my cases by cutting the cylinder base on a lathe, (this insures that the base is square and flat). Enough Loctite 518 is provided to install the kit and since it's a Meteor kit a known quality ring and piston with a new wrist pin bearing is included. 

For $275.00 I sell a set with the squish band cut. This kit includes the features of the "Blueprinted" kit but the squish band is raised .040 (on most kits) and the cylinder base is turned to set the squish at .025. This allows someone to do their own port work. 

The fully ported kit is 400.00. 

As you can see this doesn't really save the customer a lot of money on a ported saw. The thing is I will not port a saw with an aftermarket top end (too many unknowns). If a guy has a saw with a roached top end and wants to get it going again with OEM parts and then get it ported you can see this being a cheaper route. I'll be glad to assemble, vac test, replace seals.....etc. We rebuild saws and then port them regularly. But if his saw runs well......just send it in for port work.


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## MCW (Dec 30, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Matt, you keep saying this and I believe you. Thing is how does this personally do me any good?
> Where can I get a AM kit that has been personally checked over by someone like you? Where is a list of AM thats safe to buy and one for AM not to buy? Just asking.



It probably doesn't do you any good at all Mark however I am just replying to other members who seem to be putting all aftermarket kits in the same junk basket without having actually seen all aftermarket kits - comments such as "I now know it was just dumb luck that I didn't have AM p/c kits blowing up all over town!" are well worth replying to.
I have a very nice looking MS441 kit sitting in my shed however not having a 441 to test it on I'm not going to open my mouth and say that this particular kit is any good. It is not from the same manufacturer as the one I listed earlier.
In the US Randy looks like your best bet at this stage as per his previous reply. Anybody that doesn't check kits prior to sale is asking for trouble as far as I'm concerned and it doesn't take much for a seller to open the box and do a few checks prior to sale.


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 30, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> There is a simple way to make sure it's right the first time and you will have to pay a little extra.
> 
> Call Randy.


----------



## indiansprings (Dec 30, 2012)

hoeyrd2110 said:


> if they charged maybe $200 for an OEM kit which they would still make money off of it would be a no brainer. a factory ps540 dolmar kit is $180...thats a no brainer. but if the kit was say 250+ it just wouldn't be worth it. if dolmar can charge 180 for a mahle p/c kit why are the rest of them jacking the prices up? there would be no aftermarket if they were competitively priced.



Lot of difference in the two cylinders compared, as the bore size goes up so does the price, same with the stratro jugs, lot more difficulty and maching involved in the process.


----------



## sachsmo (Dec 30, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


>



Harharhar,

dat be cuzin ed


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 30, 2012)

Randy......Your fully ported cylinders, do you chamfer your vertical port edges? 

Just wondering, because I don't!.......I believe chamfering the vertical edges cause the ring to pop out more into the port. I just polish the verticals, and really don't chamfer heavily the horizontal edges, but will use a ball hone and then polish. I change rings more than pistons, unless the piston show heavy wear.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 30, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Randy......Your fully ported cylinders, do you chamfer your vertical port edges?
> 
> Just wondering, because I don't!.......I believe chamfering the vertical edges cause the ring to pop out more into the port. I just polish the verticals, and really don't chamfer heavily the horizontal edges, but will use a ball hone and then polish. I change rings more than pistons, unless the piston show heavy wear.



I use a diamond ball shaped burr for bevels. Like you said....I just bevel the horizontal edges. Most of the work I do after that is with sand paper to slick things up.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 30, 2012)

Good!......I think some will chamfer deep all the way around a port. That's a mistake IMO!


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The thing is I will not port a saw with an aftermarket top end (too many unknowns).



OK, you true the base, cut the squish, a nice meteor piston&rings, good clips, port and chamfer your way, good nicisil. What else could go wrong?


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 30, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> OK, you true the base, cut the squish, a nice meteor piston&rings, good clips, port and chamfer your way, good nicisil. What else could go wrong?



Well Big D, I could throw a gutter ball. It happens ya know.


----------



## zogger (Dec 30, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> It's sad that a company that has the financial ability doesn't make the investment (take Bailey's for example) to hire a top shelf engineer with a back ground in cylinder mfg and place him in Tawain and let him or a team of two or three develop a high quality line of plug and play replacement cylinders/pistons, there is a huge market. Hell, I sell Stihl oem and I think the mark up is way to steep on the oem replacements, I'd venture to say Husky is the same ball park. There is a fortune to be made on quality replacements.
> The problem is pricing, I recently priced a very nice, almost pristine OEM Stihl 660 Mahle cylinder, piston, rings, wrist pin and rod bearing for 160.00 shipped anywhere in the continental US and the customer thought it was on the high side, and I totally respect his opinion, but were is the point at what people will pay for aftermarket kits, a new 660 mahle piston/cylinder runs 330.00, with no rod bearing. You can't have oem quality and expect to pay 100-125.00 a kit.
> I feel for you Mark you must have some boneheads in your local Stihl dealership, they are not all that way.




Its a shame something like that couldnt be done in the USA!

We *used* to make everything in the world here, and that is when we had a real good economy and a growing wealthy middle class. Real peculiar how this offshoring jobs exactly parallels the decline of the economy and all this so called debt we now owe to..I have no idea, they print the crap up outta thin air in the first place, never have figgered out how that translates to some sort of universal debt.

But Ya, aftermarket good quality pistons and cylinders at affordable prices. Heck, between the real cheap stuff that is a crapshoot and the bloated OEM prices would be acceptable.

Either that or now that they have miniaturized everything and sensors and computer chips are going in, some sort of high temp sensor that would either shut the saw down, lower rpms and give a warning indicator, anything, just as long as it worked and didnt add more than say 25 bucks to the brand new price. Help eliminate the need for replacement cylinders and pistons in the first place.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 31, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> Not necessarily, Mark.
> 
> Say an aftermarket p/c kit is $100 and an OEM one is $350. If Randy (Mastermind) is charging $200 for a "blueprinted" kit that's still saving $150. Lots of people say they're willing to pay more for an aftermarket kit that is known to be good, Randy is providing those.
> 
> ...



Thomas, your streatching/reaching a bit in your explination. The Sthil kit was like $285 I think THall said, thats quite a bit less then $350 and only $85 savings. 

If the manufacture would just care a little more about there QC and put better rings and clips in there kits they could charge $125 a kit and sell em as fast as they could make em. They would make a ton more without the returns/replacements.


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 31, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> I feel for you Mark you must have some boneheads in your local Stihl dealership, they are not all that way.



Yes afraid thats true. 

Don't matter to me much, I dont go there, I have choices of where to spend my money. You noticed, I wasn't the one to go to the Stihl dealer didnt you? :msp_rolleyes:


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## hoeyrd2110 (Dec 31, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> Lot of difference in the two cylinders compared, as the bore size goes up so does the price, same with the stratro jugs, lot more difficulty and maching involved in the process.



no they ordered the extra parts p/c's ahead of time when they placed the first order of jugs for the 441 production based on their estimates of failures. if it really cost that much to make a p/c for stihl then the price of a new saw would be big $$$(more than it already is). the difference in between jugs from the aftermarket and OEM seem to be more a Quality Control problem not a casting or metallurgy issues(lets not pick hairs over that). and sure don't see $150-$200 in the differences in price, maybe $50 difference. i don't see much more than a few deburring procedures for the extra ports on the strato saws. and once the AM kits figure it out the OEM's will have no choice but to drop their prices or take the AM manufacturers to court and try and stop em.

no one needs to get bent about it competition influences innovation and most of the time improving quality


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 31, 2012)

seems to my bad math ,2 aft jugs one oem jug ,your labor charge ,not much more they could have bought a new powerhead and been back to work .I cant really talk i have more into some of my saws than i could have bought a new saw for myself .


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 31, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> seems to my bad math ,2 aft jugs one oem jug ,your labor charge ,not much more they could have bought a new powerhead and been back to work .I cant really talk i have more into some of my saws than i could have bought a new saw for myself .



Yep bad math because you dont know the whole situation. 

My labor on this one was going to be traded with the owner for something, so no cost there to him. The first cyl I touched up so I will have to eat that one and since I was sure if they were bad the seller would stand behind them I told the owner that. So looks like I will take a bath on that one as well. 

So really the owner is only going to pay for a new OEM P/C so I think he is coming out fine. 

I'm the one getting the expensive lesson here. I hope some others are learning something as well. Where not to buy AM P/C's is one thing to learn from this.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 31, 2012)

Not hearing any names!





Modifiedmark said:


> I hope some others are learning something as well. Where not to buy AM P/C's is one thing to learn from this.


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## sachsmo (Dec 31, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Not hearing any names!



I am sure the name was in there somewhere.

If not, anyone that has been here awhile can decipher the veiled attempt to call him out.:bang:


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 31, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Well the 441 is back together and running. The owner decided to give the AM top end from Northwood saw a try. It didnt hurt that someone I respect and trust said they were decent. Without going into detail, the kit did indeed look pretty good, I just spend a few minutes cleaning it up some. It had the OEM Stihl style clips so I used them along with the kits rings. We will see how it turns out.




I just have to......Hahahahahahahahaha!.....at this quote!


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## Modifiedmark (Dec 31, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Not hearing any names!




Nope I figured even you could figure that out. Site sponsor bashing isnt looked on kindly here. 




sachsmo said:


> I am sure the name was in there somewhere.
> 
> If not, anyone that has been here awhile can decipher the veiled attempt to call him out.:bang:




Might be a veiled attempt in your mind, I'm sure its quite clear to others. 



Dennis Cahoon said:


> I just have to......Hahahahahahahahaha!.....at this quote!



Hahahahahahahahaha!..... Hahahahahahahahaha!.....Hahahahahahahahaha!.....Hahahahahahahahaha!.....

Who cares. Hahahahahahahahaha!.....Hahahahahahahahaha!.....


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## sachsmo (Dec 31, 2012)

Got that 441 runnin' yet?


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## sachsmo (Dec 31, 2012)

Myself,

the question of collateral damage from clipping the top off two pistons would have my attention.

Can not be good for the whole rotating assembly eh?


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 31, 2012)

OK then, How bout some site sponsor boosting!:msp_wink:.......Deal with people that give a warranty.............YO! BAILEYS:taped:


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 31, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> OK then, How bout some site sponsor boosting!:msp_wink:.......Deal with people that give a warranty.............YO! BAILEYS:taped:



when did Bailys start selling ported jugs ?


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## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 31, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> when did Bailys start selling ported jugs ?



They don't!......but they warranty them......No questions asked!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 31, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> They don't!......but they warranty them......No questions asked!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:



wow ,thats real good warranty,most places would tell you once modded to go suck eggs ,was that saw over 225 on comp ? ive heard of some breaking like that from too much compresion


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## Vibes (Dec 31, 2012)

Modifiedmark said:


> Naw no brand, just a generic white box that said 441 piston and cyl or something like that.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of like when they used to sell generic beer. You old enough to remember that? Just a plain white can and in black letters it said "beer".
> 
> The only difference is the generic beer was actually Fallstaff and was decent, these cyls not so much decent. :hmm3grin2orange:



The generic beer around these parts was some kind of Iron City swill. Now I think its called American Beer. And neither brand was good!!! 

After reading 22 pages of this thread, I am glad I can add something to it. Something that I am an expert about LOL Happy New Year all


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## DarthTater (Jan 5, 2013)

Any report on how the OEM P&C Worked out yet mark?
(likely worked fine the first time)


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 5, 2013)

Aint got the P/C yet. Owner came buy last weekend with a new piston. Thats what the dealer came up with. He took it back and told him he needed a P/C not just a piston. 

Probably see it next week. 

I know how it will work out, it will be just fine again.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 9, 2013)

The new Stihl P/C showed up today finally. Went right together without a hitch. The Sthil manufactured Cyl looked fine as did the piston. 

Runs good in the shop but too dark to try it out tonight. It will be back in the woods by the weekend anyway.


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## DarthTater (Jan 11, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> The new Stihl P/C showed up today finally. Went right together without a hitch. The Sthil manufactured Cyl looked fine as did the piston.
> 
> Runs good in the shop but too dark to try it out tonight. It will be back in the woods by the weekend anyway.



Awesome!


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## dl5205 (Jan 11, 2013)

I really hope that you've put this baby to bed.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

DarthTater said:


> Awesome!




Yes, thats just the way it ran when I got to try it out last night, just like I knew it would. 




dl5205 said:


> I really hope that you've put this baby to bed.



What do you mean by that? 

I'm not forgetting it for a while, my wallet is still stinging from these first two junk P/C's. 

I got a smoked 044 in here right now and I told the owner if he was going AM P/C, then he could take it to someone else to fix.


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## DarthTater (Jan 11, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> I got a smoked 044 in here right now and I told the owner if he was going AM P/C, then he could take it to someone else to fix.



LOL

also reminds me of a joke.

"A Friend once told me he Tried to Smoke Mushrooms once and it never worked out because he could never get the pizza to stay Lit...."


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## redunshee (Jan 11, 2013)

Mark your 441 will run real good. Put an OEM P&C on my 441 last year and as much as I've used it , it runs real strong. Not even broken in yet.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

DarthTater said:


> LOL
> 
> also reminds me of a joke.
> 
> "A Friend once told me he Tried to Smoke Mushrooms once and it never worked out because he could never get the pizza to stay Lit...."



LOL, seems its much eaiser to smoke a Stihl. 



redunshee said:


> Mark your 441 will run real good. Put an OEM P&C on my 441 last year and as much as I've used it , it runs real strong. Not even broken in yet.



It's not my saw Bob, but it is a strong running saw no doubt. $ 300 is still a lot for a top end though.....


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## XSKIER (Jan 11, 2013)

$300!? I'll bet you could buy two aftermarket P/C kits and do the porting on them for that much. Heck, some guys can put together a nice 372XPW for $300 and out cut pretty much any other saw made. That's right, even those $280 Home Depot 7900s. 

I hope the 441 guy will be able to LOVE that saw he has too much into for many years to come. Marc, Thanks for sharing your epic saga, and helping to educate the board on this issue. I'm happy to hear that the 441 has made it past a couple of tanks this time.


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## Termite (Jan 11, 2013)

Yes Mark thanks for sharing. Good info.


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## dl5205 (Jan 11, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> What do you mean by that?



I was just sending you well-wishes. In a friendly, non-confrontational sort of way. I hope you never see that saw again, for anything more than a busted recoil. I'm sure you're sick of looking at it.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

dl5205 said:


> I was just sending you well-wishes. In a friendly, non-confrontational sort of way. I hope you never see that saw again, for anything more than a busted recoil. I'm sure you're sick of looking at it.



Thank you that's what I thought. 

No, not really sick of it, its a nice saw really, just don't like doing my work over needlessly. 

I am tired of people selling junk though and leaving customers holding the bag for it.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

XSKIER said:


> $300!? I'll bet you could buy two aftermarket P/C kits and do the porting on them for that much. Heck, some guys can put together a nice 372XPW for $300 and out cut pretty much any other saw made. That's right, even those $280 Home Depot 7900s.
> 
> I hope the 441 guy will be able to LOVE that saw he has too much into for many years to come. Marc, Thanks for sharing your epic saga, and helping to educate the board on this issue. I'm happy to hear that the 441 has made it past a couple of tanks this time.



Actually, I just got about 15 minutes on it so far just to tune it in. It will be fine for a long time to come, or at least fl it gets run again on 20% ethanol with a plugged carb screen...


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## SawTroll (Jan 11, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> The new Stihl P/C showed up today finally. Went right together without a hitch. The Sthil manufactured Cyl looked fine as did the piston.
> 
> Runs good in the shop but too dark to try it out tonight. It will be back in the woods by the weekend anyway.



Was there any clue who made that OEM top end?

Regardless of that. I'm happy to hear you finally got that fatass right.....:msp_biggrin:


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> Was there any clue who made that OEM top end?
> 
> Regardless of that. I'm happy to hear you finally got that fatass right.....:msp_biggrin:



Yes, it only said Stihl on it and the cyl ports looked great to me.

The owner will be happy that he now has it to use again also. Said his 362's been getting a real workout since the 441,and 460 have been down. 

I was suppose to maybe go out with him tomorrow to load up some 4' Cottonwood logs he has put aside for me but it rained so much last night, we probably won't be able to get back to them.


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## SawTroll (Jan 11, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> Yes, it only said Stihl on it and the cyl ports looked great to me.
> 
> The owner will be happy that he now has it to use again also. Said his 362's been getting a real workout since the 441,and 460 have been down.
> 
> I was suppose to maybe go out with him tomorrow to load up some 4' Cottonwood logs he has put aside for me but it rained so much last night, we probably won't be able to get back to them.



Sorry for the rain, but it wasn't me that was raining on that parade....:msp_scared:

My guess would be Gilardoni regarding that OEM top end, but it is just a slightly educated guess.....


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## excess650 (Jan 11, 2013)

I've read this entire thread, and sympathize with your frustrations. The lack of willingness to stand behind the product will definitely influence my suggestions as to where to source parts.


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## excess650 (Jan 11, 2013)

Modifiedmark said:


> I was suppose to maybe go out with him tomorrow to load up some 4' Cottonwood logs he has put aside for me but it rained so much last night, we probably won't be able to get back to them.



What are your plans for the cottonwood?...firewood, milling?


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

excess650 said:


> I've read this entire thread, and sympathize with your frustrations. The lack of willingness to stand behind the product will definitely influence my suggestions as to where to source parts.



For what its worth, the vendor refused to refund any money for either P/C kit. He did start to mention providing yet another P/C kit but I put a end to that talk pretty quickly. I got better things to do then swap junk top end back and forth all the time and the owner already had been without his saw,too long.

Of course to make it worse the local Stihl dealer didn't set any time records getting him one either.


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## blsnelling (Jan 11, 2013)

One thing's for sure. Baileys ALWAYS stands behind their product. I've seen them even pay for repair to a bottom end after an AM topend fail. They've also replaced ported topends. Grande Dog is always there for us.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

excess650 said:


> What are your plans for the cottonwood?...firewood, milling?[/OTE]
> 
> Firewood, no way, we consider that garbage around here. Hoping to be able to put a GTG together in the future and can use this bigger stuff for that. There are some big trees around here if you look but getting them loaded up is a problem most the time.
> 
> That won't be a problem with these and we won't feel bad about throwing the cookies on a burn pile.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 11, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> One thing's for sure. Baileys ALWAYS stands behind their product. I've seen them even pay for repair to a bottom end after an AM topend fail. They've also replaced ported topends. Grande Dog is always there for us.



Well I don't see myself using AM P/C on anybody else's saw, but if I ever think about doing one for.myself that will probably be the only place I would get one from. It would be nice if they started stocking AM kits for 5200's and 5000's sometime.:msp_biggrin:


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## MCW (Jan 13, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> My guess would be Gilardoni regarding that OEM top end, but it is just a slightly educated guess.....



My guess would be Brazil.


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 13, 2013)

MCW said:


> My guess would be Brazil.



And thats probably a really good guess as it dont say anything but Stihl on it.


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