# Massachusetts Wild Elm?! Immediate Opinions Please



## PinkFloydEffect (May 24, 2010)

*So I took a really really long walk down a railroad here in MA. Mind you it's 2010 in the middle of the woods and I stumble upon this! I almost shat myself she is a beast the height of the canopy line!*
































*This ALSO leads me to believe this is an American Elm with the DED "flagging"*


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## cighon (May 24, 2010)

yes looks like an elm. they are still out there. most larger trees are either in a highly tree managed town or out in the middle of the woods by them selves where no disease has reached them


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 24, 2010)

I just went back, for this area (Templeton) and such I have seen maybe 10 Elms roadside that have been treated and well managed. As for this one has never been touched it is grown in by maples and exactly half its roots are in semi wet land which is maybe how it survived untouched. But what strikes me is with all the disease that spreads by railroad, how this thing survived being 55 feet from the track center-line. It is 6.5 feet DBH and has got to be diseased but possibly savable if I find out who's land and if I can clear the touching crowding trees to allow more canopy sunlight, and get the fungicide. It is a single trunk and classic shape, no need to go to waste given the constant balanced natural water supply it could possibly outlive many; treated.


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## beowulf343 (May 24, 2010)

I'm kind of surprised. Are they really that rare in Massachusetts? While they aren't common around here, we still run into them pretty regularly. I only know of two in the county that are comparable to the size they used to grow to around here, but there are a lot of them the size of the one in your picture and smaller. I probably take down three or four healthy specimens a year and our trim crews see them monthly.

I don't know how accurate this is, but we have a groundie from Missouri that says the elm are like weeds out there.


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 24, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> I'm kind of surprised. Are they really that rare in Massachusetts? While they aren't common around here, we still run into them pretty regularly. I only know of two in the county that are comparable to the size they used to grow to around here, but there are a lot of them the size of the one in your picture and smaller. I probably take down three or four a year and our trim crews see them monthly.
> 
> I don't know how accurate this is, but we have a groundie from Missouri that says the elm are like weeds out there.



It's our state tree! And no they are completely gone in the wild that I know of. They are all diseased even the ones being maintained on private property. Since about 1960 1 in every 100,000 stand ratio wise. It's up there with American Chestnut in rarity. They are probably viewed as weeds here only because of the comparison to the loss nationally, but they have been impacted here heavily, but like I said it's the state tree so of course there are more here however a century ago they grew like maple trees wildly.

*Here is the canopy maybe it will help 100% identify, I'm 95% sure. * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o3bemcj7g0


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## Oldtimer (May 24, 2010)

I have several "wild" American Elms here in my yard, one is about 10" DBH, and all are thriving. 
I have watched them grow from saplings.
My friend wanted to cut them so sunlight would better reach the garden, and I wouldn't let him. We moved the garden over instead.


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## ddhlakebound (May 24, 2010)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> I just went back, for this area (Templeton) and such I have seen maybe 10 Elms roadside that have been treated and well managed. As for this one has never been touched it is grown in by maples and exactly half its roots are in semi wet land which is maybe how it survived untouched. But what strikes me is with all the disease that spreads by railroad, how this thing survived being 55 feet from the track center-line. It is 6.5 feet DBH and has got to be diseased but possibly savable if I find out who's land and if I can clear the touching crowding trees to allow more canopy sunlight, and get the fungicide. It is a single trunk and classic shape, no need to go to waste given the constant balanced natural water supply it could possibly outlive many; treated.



Pink, this one needs a good bit of thought, contemplation, and specific learning before you take any action. 

A couple questions though....

Do you mean 6.5' circumference, or diameter? It looks far smaller than 6.5' DBH. 

How is it that you think the railroad is spreading Ophiostoma ulmi spores?

(side note).....when did they change the name of the DED fungus from ceratosystis to ophiostoma?

A few things to consider before you act....

Treating an infected tree with fungicide will not save the tree. To stop dutch elm (which I'm not sure your tree has), you must remove infected tissue, and go back as much as 10' from the last visible symptom. The brown streaking the fungus causes will continue the infection if any is left. So you've gotta trace the infection, and remove all infected material (sterilizing your tools in the process). 

Removing smaller elms in the area could potentially allow the large tree to be infected through root grafts working at this time of year. May/June is the worst time to be cutting on living elms. 

You're gonna freak when you find out the cost of the fungicide to properly treat a big elm. 

It's easy to do more harm than good here, imo....Take it slow, learn, question, learn more.....then act.


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 24, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> I have several "wild" American Elms here in my yard, one is about 10" DBH, and all are thriving.
> I have watched them grow from saplings.
> My friend wanted to cut them so sunlight would better reach the garden, and I wouldn't let him. We moved the garden over instead.



That's interesting, I know they are disappearing by the handfuls 



ddhlakebound said:


> Pink, this one needs a good bit of thought, contemplation, and specific learning before you take any action.
> 
> A couple questions though....
> 
> ...



My bad circumference

The bark beetle could easily sit somewhere on a train and get off at any point

I know that it won't save the tree but it will help boost the strong immune system it already has, it is flagged everywhere so to me appears to have DED. I could at least help it by removing (at the right time of year) the dead limbs that are infected which will reduce weight. Depending on who's land its on there might be a grant available for the vaccination


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## treeseer (May 24, 2010)

that flagging does not look like DED


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 24, 2010)

treeseer said:


> that flagging does not look like DED



Did you see the video link? There are random branches and tips all over that have no buds or leaves

http://www.majestictreecare.com/Majestic_main/WebLinks/FactSheets/DutchELm.html


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## S Mc (May 24, 2010)

This could be just me being me....but is everyone positive this is actually an American elm, _Ulmus Americana_? 

A mature American elm has rather distinctive diamond ridging to the bark and the twigs have a definitive zig zag appearance. Neither characteristic of which I am seeing on this tree.

It does bear a strong resemblance to the Black cherry, _Prunus serotina_. But I am not nearly as familiar with those.

We do still have a few American elms here that have been isolated from attack. Yes, a large portion of the population has been decimated by DED. (I'm not sure when they changed the name, Dean...I think they do that periodically to diseases just to jerk us around.)

Generally when someone calls elms "weeds" they are referring to the Siberian elm, _Ulmus pumila_, NOT the American elm.

Sylvia


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 25, 2010)

I can take more bark photos

Black Cherry bark looks like this; completely different:





Black Cherry's also have what seems to be a low crotch level as for this trees crotch is 60+ feet high

If I could just get a confirmation photo or video that the leaves are jagged edged I could set it apart. 

The limbs that split at a very high crotch level off the trunk are all zig zaggy but as far as "twigs" go I have no idea


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## S Mc (May 25, 2010)

A good close up picture of the leaf would be great.


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## moss (May 25, 2010)

A black cherry similar in size to the probable elm would have very different looking bark than the posted black cherry bark example.

For example this is a large woods grown black cherry in Massachusetts, note how dark the bark is and the signature texture/pattern of a mature cherry.

Black Cherry
CBH = 9' 4"
Height = 102' 






Edit: Not many of us get to see woods grown old-growth style black cherry, the trunk on this tree is straight for 50', divides into two big leaders, keeps going up and finally in the 65-70+ range you start to see the familiar bark texture of the small cherry we're used to seeing.
-moss


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## moss (May 25, 2010)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> ...and has got to be diseased but possibly savable if I find out who's land and if I can clear the touching crowding trees to allow more canopy sunlight, and get the fungicide. It is a single trunk and classic shape, no need to go to waste given the constant balanced natural water supply it could possibly outlive many; treated.



Agree with the other comments, no need to take action on this tree. It's growing in optimal habitat for an elm, they like their feet in or next to swampy woods. There's nothing you can do or should do to improve the situation, the reason it's there is because it's a very happy tree in the best possible location for the species. Remember that arboriculture practices for landscape or "managed" trees are not the same for wild trees. It's expected for any wild and healthy tree that there will be deadwood, crowding from other trees, hollows, defects, etc. etc.

Something to consider is that this could be a more blight resistant Asian elm species not American Elm. I was just looking at a big elm in a wooded swamp two days ago, very similar to yours in size and height etc., I can't make the correct ID without studying leaf and twig in hand (that would require a climb to get to the crown). Exotic elms have been in Massachusetts long enough (since mid-19th century at least) to have become naturalized in some woods locations, especially near rights of way like railroads and roads.
-moss


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## moss (May 25, 2010)

ID note, also should rule out a hickory species for this tree, could be a shellbark or mockernut, can't tell from the upper crown photos for sure but they suggest hickory. I'm not great on hickory ID. A swamp grown elm of that size would have impressive buttresses where it meets the ground, not seeing that, maybe they're hidden in the photo.
-moss


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## tree md (May 25, 2010)

Can't tell without a closeup of the leaf pattern but the bark looks identical to an American Elm of about the same size I looked at Saturday. It also had some stain on the trunk from weeping which I also often see on Elms. This one is also effected by DED.

I was researching some of the fungicides available for a client that had a few American Elms on their property and wanted me to see how much it would cost to treat them. As Dean mentioned, tracing is the best way to treat them but I couldn't find any fungicide that could guarantee very good results. One of them I researched claimed protection for up to two years but that was about the best I could find and the equipment to inject and the fungicide itself was more than the client was willing to spring for. At the time I was trying to find an arborist who had successfully treated an American Elm and had long term results but could not find one person who could say they had done so.

I'd be interested to know if anyone here has successfully treated one and has seen long term results.

We still have a few American Elms around. I will see one every so often and will get a few call a year on them. Most are showing signs of decline and there are very few of the Giants left.


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 25, 2010)

*Moss-* Great info I loved it. You really don't think a few crowded trees poking threw the canopy like a maple (having more leaves) blocking sunlight from the Elm could be removed? There is definitely a lot of dead wood up there, snapped branches with huge stubs hanging off the trunk. 

The bark DOES look slightly different from others I have seen in the same town, this trees bark seems a bit flat and not as "definitive depth" of the bark ridges. It is a good thing they did not cut a few thick pines between the tree and the railroad as for it acts as a natural wall. I have been working with PanAm railways to determine whether it is on their property or not. It is 55' from the tracks center-line and they own about 36 feet from it so I am on SOMEONES property just have to find out who. 

This Elm you speak of in a swamp.... you know I have been working on an Elm/DED documentary now for over 6 month's right? Will you bring me to this tree? The documentary talks of natural DED tolerant trees standing in the wild and how rare they are so this will make a great archive. 6 month's from now if it turns out good I will make one next year on American Chestnut trees.

I will return to photograph the buttress and surroundings, there are a few flat spots on the trunk I don't even wanna think about girdling because over 50% of tree are girdled (read it somewhere)


*Tree MD-*The weeping stain, is that what that specific dark yellow moss looking stuff is I see on most all Elms?

I have researched it too its very expensive I would only do it if there was some state grants of some sort. The NH Elm Research Institute told me they no longer are providing the injections and are in a process of possibly having the company who makes the fungicide do it instead.

I do know a very close MA forester to me that told me her son does the injections and I am going to talk further with her when I return to Beaman's Pond, her name is Betsey if anyone knows of her.

More on that flagging this is a wide angle zoom out of that infected branch:


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 25, 2010)

*SMC-*They are 4000x3000 photos so I did some zooming around does this help for twigging?

















*Feel free to visit it anyone you can't miss the thing, it's on the North side of the railroad:*





They have those bug bags shaped like an hour glass and they also have bark beetle traps online I was thinking about putting one right at the base and hopefully the beetle will go for the bag and not the bark.


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## tree md (May 25, 2010)

The weeping I often see is a yellowish to rust colored to black looking stain.

I was discussing buying an injector from someone in Boston a couple of years ago but never did so. If you are still wanting to try to treat this tree let me know and I'll get in touch with the guy and see if he still has the injection equipment.


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## ddhlakebound (May 25, 2010)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> They have those bug bags shaped like an hour glass and they also have bark beetle traps online I was thinking about putting one right at the base and hopefully the beetle will go for the bag and not the bark.



Think that through again Pink. 

The traps are a sex scent that draws bark beetles in. You're not trying to increase the population right where your tree is, are ya?


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 25, 2010)

*TreeMD-* I am interested, but I certainly can not afford to treat trees out of my pocket that are not on my property. Who knows there MIGHT be the chance the land owner will take interest if I present it correctly and provide funding's. 

*ddhlakebound-*You bring up a valid point. BUT if the scent is stronger than the tree itself it will over power their flight path and maybe they will go for the bag? Check them out they have a description but you have a very good point. http://www.greatlakesipm.com/ebbtraps.html

*Moss-*About the whole living conditions improvement, I see 1 thing here that bothers me tremendously and that is a tree growing way too close. If anyone can recall back to my gigantic Red Maple restoration I discovered a tree of a different species growing right up against my Red Maple girdling the root flares (see below)






Now look at the wild Elm, that tree growing up against it is NOT an elm it's a maple I already checked. There for the roots will not graft and they will girdle? I want to pull this guy out or at least cut it what do yall think? (see below)


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 26, 2010)

Maybe they are not AS rare as I thought but they are all declining rapidly. I found one hanging over a road one town over and behind it appears to possibly be several more wild Elms:









*
This is a leaf off it, is it definitely an American Elm? I'll use this for future reference if this is for sure:*


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## rarefish383 (May 26, 2010)

Your desire to help trees is very admirable. But, if you go around doing "Stuff" to a tree just because, you might be doing more harm than good. Others are right, do not put traps around the tree. The tree looks as healthy as it can be, or ever will be. If you put traps out they will draw beatles. If you try to remove girdling roots and so much as nick a root on the elm it will weep sap. The weeping sap is a major attractant to beatles. We removed most of the DED infected street Elms in Washington DC. We tried injectalbles and gave up on them. It seemed the fungacide would travel in the sap system untill it hit the dead wood where the tree was flagging. It might kill some fungi at the point of contact, but since the wood an inch pasted that spot was dead, the fungacide didn't go any farther. 

I thought I saw some signs of "slime flux runs" on the bark also. This is a bacterial infection and there is no cure or preventative measure to take. Don't try to fix it. 

The absolute best thing to maintain the health this tree has is to do no harm to it. If you beat its roots up like you did your Maple you will be harming it. If you were to cut branches off this time of year you will be causing more sap to flow, and harming it. You've found a nice, big, tree, enjoy it. But leave it alone. It's doing as good as it ever will, Joe.


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 26, 2010)

Looks like that's what I shall do than, but if I cut that tree that is a few inches from the trunk and left the stump it would not disturb the Elm but if it grows then in 10 years it could choke some Elm roots right? 

When would the best time be to do pruning? If infected limbs are removed at the right time wouldn't it help stop the spread across the tree? Just wondering 

Thanks!


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## rarefish383 (May 26, 2010)

My son is in the Boy Scouts, actually he just got his Eagle Scout, turned 18, and is now out of the Scouts. Anyway, our Troop has a 40 acre wood lot the local Iisac Walton league gave us a 99 year lease on. It's called Winding Trails. We have several big old Elms just like yours. The Forester we had when we joined the Troop would not let any one touch the Elms. He said that pruning and cutting would only cause more damage, with little or no health benefits. When he passed away our new Forester is a surveyor by trade and has a deree in Forestry. He's taken the same policy. I was a licensed MD Tree Expert, and after seeing what happedned to the Elms in our area I concure, leave it alone. It's in the woods, so there is no direct risk to people. The broken limbs are injuries, but they are already dead and in the process of healing. They will rot and fall off. A pruning cut would be better as far as healing goes, but it would be a fresh wound that the healing process would have to start over on. The tree is in it's natural habitat and is probably in it's best health to fight off invaders. 

We often do a lot of work on trees in yards to slow the inevetable. An example would be a big Oak we worked on when I was a kid. It had lots of dead wood and die back in the top. It also had seeping wounds from borers. We pruned it, deep root fed it, and treated it with a chemical I believe was called Borer-Go. The tree percked up and looked good for five or six years. It started to have more die off and had more borer holes in the bark. We pruned it again and used a liquid ground injected fertilizer. By then I think we were using Cygon, a systemic insectide, for the borers. We repeated the process once more about 10years later. By then my Dad was gettng old, the customers were very old, and the tree was on its way out. A year or two later the customers were moving to a retirement home and had us take it down, because their beloved Oak, had become an eye sore. We kept it around probably an extra 25 years. 

Your tree looks to be in general good health. Municpalities have put tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into trying to save noteworthy big old Elms, and the best they have done is to add 30 or 40 years to the tree. You can't put that kind of money in a woods tree, and it may live that long any way. 

I don't think it would be any big deal to cut the close Maple down, just dont go digging. Also, remember you are on someone elses property. Enjoy your big old Elm, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (May 26, 2010)

Didn't answer your question about pruning. "IF" those limbs "ARE" infected with DED it would be better to remove them. But, at what cost? You can't aford to have a pro come out and prune and treat the tree. Even if you remove the dead wood, and the tree is infected, the infection is allready in the sap flow. So, you'll be fighting the inevitable, just like my big old Oak, and the treatment for the Elm is much more expensive, Joe.


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## TreePointer (May 26, 2010)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> Maybe they are not AS rare as I thought but they are all declining rapidly....



DED hit my parents' farm over 30 years ago and it took out the prized monster American elm next to the house. Every spring, the tree was filled with goldfinches. We still talk about that wonderful tree.

American elm trees aren't rare at all here. There are still plenty of them on the property, and they pop up like weeds (I just pulled one from an old mulch bed). The only problem is that they don't get bigger than 10-18" DBH before they show signs of DED.


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## Bermie (May 26, 2010)

rarefish383 said:


> Your desire to help trees is very admirable. But, if you go around doing "Stuff" to a tree just because, you might be doing more harm than good. Others are right, do not put traps around the tree. The tree looks as healthy as it can be, or ever will be. If you put traps out they will draw beatles. If you try to remove girdling roots and so much as nick a root on the elm it will weep sap. The weeping sap is a major attractant to beatles. We removed most of the DED infected street Elms in Washington DC. We tried injectalbles and gave up on them. It seemed the fungacide would travel in the sap system untill it hit the dead wood where the tree was flagging. It might kill some fungi at the point of contact, but since the wood an inch pasted that spot was dead, the fungacide didn't go any farther.
> 
> I thought I saw some signs of "slime flux runs" on the bark also. This is a bacterial infection and there is no cure or preventative measure to take. Don't try to fix it.
> 
> The absolute best thing to maintain the health this tree has is to do no harm to it. If you beat its roots up like you did your Maple you will be harming it. If you were to cut branches off this time of year you will be causing more sap to flow, and harming it. You've found a nice, big, tree, enjoy it. But leave it alone. It's doing as good as it ever will, Joe.



:agree2: 'First...do no harm...'

Wild trees in their natural undisturbed environment are amazing things, this tree got to the size it did on its own, its found a balance somehow...


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 26, 2010)

*Rarefish-*Wow that was a great way to explain this to me I really got it now. I'm not going to touch anything, Hopefully the disease docent spread I don't know. I am going to cut that small maple, so I shouldn't even rake the leaves up around it so the ground gets more oxygen just leave them as fertilizer? What about compost/manure? 



TreePointer said:


> DED hit my parents' farm over 30 years ago and it took out the prized monster American elm next to the house. Every spring, the tree was filled with goldfinches. We still talk about that wonderful tree.
> 
> American elm trees aren't rare at all here. There are still plenty of them on the property, and they pop up like weeds (I just pulled one from an old mulch bed). The only problem is that they don't get bigger than 10-18" DBH before they show signs of DED.



Exactly they don't make it that far, I want to dig up a tiny one and keep it indoors as an Archive but am afraid it will just already be infected when I dig it up.


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 26, 2010)

Oh and I asked the guy about the beetle traps and louring them to the tree and this is what he responded with:

"If you hang it on an Elm tree it will attract them to it. We don't recommend placing them on the Elm trees directly. You can hang them on other trees away from your Elm. These traps are not going to control the beetle, it does let you know when they are flying so you can take measures to control them."


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## beowulf343 (May 27, 2010)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> I am going to cut that small maple, so I shouldn't even rake the leaves up around it so the ground gets more oxygen just leave them as fertilizer? What about compost/manure?



What about making sure you can actually cut that maple. Is it state land, private property, railroad land, etc? Before you go all gung-ho, make sure you can actually do it legally.


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## PinkFloydEffect (May 27, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> What about making sure you can actually cut that maple. Is it state land, private property, railroad land, etc? Before you go all gung-ho, make sure you can actually do it legally.



I'm in the process, the railroad company told me it's not their property.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Jun 1, 2010)

*Update*

*Aside from the property owner hunt I returned, takes 1 1/2 hours on foot to get to it from my house. It stands out, almost glows in the light because of it's canopy height and bark color. *













*Here is a new bark shot:*









*Once again hard to get a leaf shot but I think I got it, the edges appear to be rippled or spiky like the American Elm. Also to the left you can see much higher up in the canopy the leaves look thin and long, dominant American Elm appearance. You can also see the criss-crossed bark:*


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## PinkFloydEffect (Jun 2, 2010)

*More pictures*

*I went photo crazy while I was there I hope knone minds the flood of pictures. They are a cool thing to study and just archive. Here is a better leaf shot the edges are a bit more clear, definitely jagged. *





*Here are the wavy gravy limbs: *





*Overall the canopy seems to be a bit more healthy than I first thought, not many snapped or dead limbs. Here is a bit of a better feeling for its surroundings:*









*I would assume this pretty much explains how it survived so long, it never has a drought to battle through (that is IF it is diseased) it has a perfect mini stream running adjacent to the flare just small enough not to rot the roots out. *


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## PinkFloydEffect (Jun 11, 2010)

*I just can not stay away from the thing. Here my latest footage and worries, more trees just too darn close. There's 3 somewhat small ones that have to be girdling the #### out of this tree or will soon to be. *


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