# Looking to get into Fire Contracting in NorCal



## JRoland (Jul 20, 2020)

I’m looking to get into fire this summer- I have a small tree service and normally work for Caltrans but have some free time this summer and would like to go.
I just got my vendor card ( Interagency Emergency Equipment Operator Card) and am looking to go.
I’d prefer as a faller, but dont carry all the required insurance and don’t want to take out that much policy without checking it out first this summer.
I‘m thinking if there’s a vendor that needs an extra hand- I’d consider being a swamper as well or even driving a water tender ( I have an unrestricted Class A with Tank endorsement)
I‘m mainly looking to make some connections so I can get deployed.
Thanks in advance,
Jason
P.S. I’m in Arnold 95223 but willing to travel wherever


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## northmanlogging (Jul 20, 2020)

CalFire does things a little different down there, but I think you need to have various certifications through them to even carry a chainsaw anywhere near a fire...

anyhow, some CA locals should be along soon with better info


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## madhatte (Jul 21, 2020)

Paging @2dogs


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## rustykfd (Jul 21, 2020)

If you just want to get in the system and gain some insight, I know the feds hire a lot of chippers for fires and fire rehab. You just run the chipper and a hand crew drags brush. 

Contract fallers just cut trees in my experience, no swamper. Fallers work in pairs. 

CA might be different, most of my experience is on Fed fires in management teams. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 21, 2020)

When I worked in Oregon back in the seventies' with the USFS contracting was pretty easy. You did not need much insurance or equipment. I have worked with the USFS quite consistently for more than twenty years, but getting involved with fire suppression is getting harder, If you get connected with the USFS they have their system and it does not matter where. Working with Cal Fire is some what impossible. I did have a meeting with some Cal Fire people a year or two ago. They were open to some contracting, but not really fire suppression. If you want to get involved with USFS then they have much information that is available on line as to get started. The people I talked to kept directing me to set up a strike team with a pumper and crew which would be about a million dollar investment annually. During my investigation the possibility of a manned tanker appeared like a possible option which was a more feasible possibility. I wanted to do chain saw work with my expertise and equipment, but was not encouraged. The involvement was so confining that to run another business seemed unlikely. Thus I decided I needed to work with one or another, but not both. Thanks


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## 2dogs (Jul 21, 2020)

I was a contract faller for Cal Fire for several seasons though I only worked a few fires. I think 2016 was the last year. My phone hardly rang until mid-July then all hell broke loose. I chose to work just a few fires but I worked rehab on one for nearly two years. Fun times.

I said all that to make sure you understand my knowledge of the system may be lacking or just plain wrong. But that has never stopped me from throwing my opinions out there. Cal Fire hires "falling modules" which is a faller and a swamper. The faller pays the swamper out of his pay which at the time was around $1,700/day. That sounds like a lot but out of that you pay insurance, fuel, food, saws including breakage, PPE etc. A fire shelter is $300.00 or more. You need a reliable decent truck too, no junk allowed on the fireline, your truck will be inspected before fire season. At the time fallers were supplied with a radio though most of us had our own. A radio costs about $1,700.00, You are not put up in a motel at Cal Fire's expense, and on smaller incidents you will not be fed. Your module has to be able to commit to a fire when you answer the phone. If you take the incident or not your name then cycles back to the bottom of which ever list you are on. 

To clarify, do you have your hired equipment vendor card? If so you are on a list but to be sure call your local headquarters and ask for the hired equipment vendor specialist. That person may be on a fire somewhere and may not get back to you. BTW you are months late to be doing this. Next year nail all these things down by February. Don't expect there to be a falling boss on all incidents, there may only be a firefighter acting as an engineer/captain. Your assignment may be vague so ask any questions you have politely. This person will write your review.

Once you are on a list regardless of the position you are considered an expert. You can turn down an assignment if you can't handle it safely, just follow the guidelines in the IRPG.


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## HumBurner (Jul 21, 2020)

2dogs said:


> I was a contract faller for Cal Fire for several seasons though I only worked a few fires. I think 2016 was the last year. My phone hardly rang until mid-July then all hell broke loose. I chose to work just a few fires but I worked rehab on one for nearly two years. Fun times.
> 
> I said all that to make sure you understand my knowledge of the system may be lacking or just plain wrong. But that has never stopped me from throwing my opinions out there. Cal Fire hires "falling modules" which is a faller and a swamper. The faller pays the swamper out of his pay which at the time was around $1,700/day. That sounds like a lot but out of that you pay insurance, fuel, food, saws including breakage, PPE etc. A fire shelter is $300.00 or more. You need a reliable decent truck too, no junk allowed on the fireline, your truck will be inspected before fire season. At the time fallers were supplied with a radio though most of us had our own. A radio costs about $1,700.00, You are not put up in a motel at Cal Fire's expense, and on smaller incidents you will not be fed. Your module has to be able to commit to a fire when you answer the phone. If you take the incident or not your name then cycles back to the bottom of which ever list you are on.
> 
> ...




There are also double-modules, which is two fallers and no swamper. That allows flexibility for each sawyer to both swamp and saw as they need rest from one or the other. I'm not sure how it works turning down a call when you are not already deployed, but IF you are deployed (as in, on payroll and active on a fire) and you turn down a tree or site, you are done on that fire. You go home and wait for them to call you again, which may or may not happen that season. If someone shows a trend of turning down trees or moving-sites, my understanding is that person is less likely to be called upon in future incidents, or at least being one of the first to be called.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 21, 2020)

HumBurner said:


> There are also double-modules, which is two fallers and no swamper. That allows flexibility for each sawyer to both swamp and saw as they need rest from one or the other. I'm not sure how it works turning down a call when you are not already deployed, but IF you are deployed (as in, on payroll and active on a fire) and you turn down a tree or site, you are done on that fire. You go home and wait for them to call you again, which may or may not happen that season. If someone shows a trend of turning down trees or moving-sites, my understanding is that person is less likely to be called upon in future incidents, or at least being one of the first to be called.


Wait a minute, if you turn down fallling a hazard tree because you are concerned about it, they send you packing? What kind of backwards **** is that, half burned trees are sketchy at best, one mistake its and its smashish goes the cutter, it should be regular practice to avoid getting killed, pushing folks past what they consider safe and into things you know is not even remotely safe, is literally criminal.

Worst case scenerio, rather then cut the tree there is always the option to blast em, at least then by the time gravity re-establishes control, no one is around to get killed


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## HumBurner (Jul 21, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> Wait a minute, if you turn down fallling a hazard tree because you are concerned about it, they send you packing? What kind of backwards **** is that, half burned trees are sketchy at best, one mistake its and its smashish goes the cutter, it should be regular practice to avoid getting killed, pushing folks past what they consider safe and into things you know is not even remotely safe, is literally criminal.
> 
> Worst case scenerio, rather then cut the tree there is always the option to blast em, at least then by the time gravity re-establishes control, no one is around to get killed



It is possible, though I haven't heard of it, that if one was to address safety as the issue, that there may be exceptions. However, for every faller there is that finds a tree too unsafe to work, there are a dozen other fallers that wouldn't think twice about it. Again, this is my understanding of the situation based on a few anecdotal, though direct from the source, accounts. I have never contracted with CalFire or USFS. There also may be exceptions and/or different sets of rules for people working FOR USFS/Calfire and not contracting WITH them.


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## RandyMac (Jul 21, 2020)

Learning when to walk away was a tough one for me, I rarely did so when falling timber and never on a fire.


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## JRoland (Jul 21, 2020)

2dogs said:


> I was a contract faller for Cal Fire for several seasons though I only worked a few fires. I think 2016 was the last year. My phone hardly rang until mid-July then all hell broke loose. I chose to work just a few fires but I worked rehab on one for nearly two years. Fun times.
> 
> I said all that to make sure you understand my knowledge of the system may be lacking or just plain wrong. But that has never stopped me from throwing my opinions out there. Cal Fire hires "falling modules" which is a faller and a swamper. The faller pays the swamper out of his pay which at the time was around $1,700/day. That sounds like a lot but out of that you pay insurance, fuel, food, saws including breakage, PPE etc. A fire shelter is $300.00 or more. You need a reliable decent truck too, no junk allowed on the fireline, your truck will be inspected before fire season. At the time fallers were supplied with a radio though most of us had our own. A radio costs about $1,700.00, You are not put up in a motel at Cal Fire's expense, and on smaller incidents you will not be fed. Your module has to be able to commit to a fire when you answer the phone. If you take the incident or not your name then cycles back to the bottom of which ever list you are on.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply. To clarify, I have my “Interagency Emergency Equipment Operator Card”.
I am a single resource, and looking to get on with an existing contractor- drive their water truck, be a faller in their module, etc. 
My plan is to check it out this year, go out on a few fires, see how it all goes, then maybe this winter I’ll bump my insurance up and get all my own stuff to contract out next season. I also have a partner who is currently doing another job, but will be available next year. We both have Class A licenses, so we were considering if we had a water tender staffed with two folks, it would be able to work 24 hours.
But I’d rather fall trees.
I realize that about the trucks too- I‘ve been to a few fires and my junk didn’t pass the first try, so I was able to fix it and just lose 2 days. Currently I have either a 30 year old Cummins with 300k miles or a 20 year old Chevy (neither with working AC ) I wouldn’t want to take either of them on a fire.
Mainly looking to make some contacts and hopefully go on a few fires for this summer.
Jason


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## 2dogs (Jul 21, 2020)

HumBurner said:


> There are also double-modules, which is two fallers and no swamper. That allows flexibility for each sawyer to both swamp and saw as they need rest from one or the other. I'm not sure how it works turning down a call when you are not already deployed, but IF you are deployed (as in, on payroll and active on a fire) and you turn down a tree or site, you are done on that fire. You go home and wait for them to call you again, which may or may not happen that season. If someone shows a trend of turning down trees or moving-sites, my understanding is that person is less likely to be called upon in future incidents, or at least being one of the first to be called.


Cal Fire will never ask a faller to take on a tree too hazardous fall. I have turned down a tree with no repercussions, I just moved to the next tree. I also continued to be called up. If a dozer or an excavator is working the fire and is in proximity then they might be used. If not they will call a blaster. Anecdotes are not facts or personal observations. Over estimating one's skill can lead to deaths. It happen to a dozer operator (two actually) very close to where I was working.


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## JRoland (Jul 21, 2020)

HumBurner said:


> There are also double-modules, which is two fallers and no swamper. That allows flexibility for each sawyer to both swamp and saw as they need rest from one or the other. I'm not sure how it works turning down a call when you are not already deployed, but IF you are deployed (as in, on payroll and active on a fire) and you turn down a tree or site, you are done on that fire. You go home and wait for them to call you again, which may or may not happen that season. If someone shows a trend of turning down trees or moving-sites, my understanding is that person is less likely to be called upon in future incidents, or at least being one of the first to be called.


Yeah, I was at the Camp Fire in Paradise with my SAR group and was talking to some of the fallers there and saw both the one faller one swamper module and the dual faller modules.
I like cutting trees but since I’m the last guy to get signed up I’m down for whatever.
As far as walking away from trees- I wouldn’t want to get into a Swinging D**k contest with anyone there- when I’ve done line clearance (both for fire cleanup and as a climber/ faller) that was always the rumor too- ” you can turn down any tree but may not get called back” but I’ve seen more often it was folks getting sent home due to not walking away and sending a tree through the lines. So I think I’ll just take it as I see it once I’m there.


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## 2dogs (Jul 21, 2020)

Driving a water tender can be fun too, and it is a lot easier on the body. I drove one in 1987 on the Pebble Beach fire, worked 36 hours straight the first shift. It is difficult to cat nap in a Peterbilt. (I occasionally drove my late father in law's 1955 Pete with a 5 and a 4, never knew what gear I was in). I wish the WT I drove had tank balls, it really rocked, poor baffling.


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## RandyMac (Jul 22, 2020)

''Back in the day'' stories have little relevance in this time, things were very different then, the men doing the work were different, although the work remains the same, Governmental and societal interference has weakened the strain. Much of the personal initiative has been removed, replaced by overweening regs and certifications, leading toward a trend to overthink situations, which in many cases turns to fear and promotes walking away, often leaving often critical things left undone or unduly delayed.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 22, 2020)

RandyMac said:


> ''Back in the day'' stories have little relevance in this time, things were very different then, the men doing the work were different, although the work remains the same, Governmental and societal interference has weakened the strain. Much of the personal initiative has been removed, replaced by overweening regs and certifications, leading toward a trend to overthink situations, which in many cases turns to fear and promotes walking away, often leaving often critical things left undone or unduly delayed.


Not many that understand risk vs reward, granted risking for a wage is foolish, but if you understand your risk puts others out of danger, then wages are secondary, which I do believe is lost on far to many people these days, old and young.

I don't have employees, so all the risk comes back to me, not many I've walked away from (mostly in my learning years) but sure are plenty I probably should have. Now if I did have employees, I'd get mighty uncomfortable putting someone else in harms way, so I could remain comfy and safe.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 22, 2020)

2dogs said:


> I was a contract faller for Cal Fire for several seasons though I only worked a few fires. I think 2016 was the last year. My phone hardly rang until mid-July then all hell broke loose. I chose to work just a few fires but I worked rehab on one for nearly two years. Fun times.
> 
> I said all that to make sure you understand my knowledge of the system may be lacking or just plain wrong. But that has never stopped me from throwing my opinions out there. Cal Fire hires "falling modules" which is a faller and a swamper. The faller pays the swamper out of his pay which at the time was around $1,700/day. That sounds like a lot but out of that you pay insurance, fuel, food, saws including breakage, PPE etc. A fire shelter is $300.00 or more. You need a reliable decent truck too, no junk allowed on the fireline, your truck will be inspected before fire season. At the time fallers were supplied with a radio though most of us had our own. A radio costs about $1,700.00, You are not put up in a motel at Cal Fire's expense, and on smaller incidents you will not be fed. Your module has to be able to commit to a fire when you answer the phone. If you take the incident or not your name then cycles back to the bottom of which ever list you are on.
> 
> ...



Sounds like solid experience that has paid off for you. Cal Fire would probably be a good bet for Californians and possibly those near enough to make the call in a timely manner. My experience with the USFS has been a different situation with some similarities. When the USFS calls they do not care where you are from or how far you drive just so long as you arrive at a reasonable time. My thinking was to have a trailer with a tractor pulled by a 5 to 6k gallon tanker. With two options available it seemed more likely to get calls. I finally quit trying because of so many issues and complications, but it still seems possible for those that have all the ingredients. Thanks


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2020)

I think the best option for anyone trying to break into fire is to 1. either work for a contractor or 2. hit up all the Headquarters in the off season and make yourself known. You will need an operator/vendor card and good clean looking equipment. There will be inspections before fire season and inspections while on fires/demob. In Cali state OES maintains the lists. If you are a disabled veteran, a female (of some type, after all it is Cali), a minority then you may be on several lists. I don't know how many there are but you can view the lists online through fire.ca.gov.


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## JRoland (Jul 22, 2020)

So what’s happened now is I talked with a contractor about possibly being a tracked chipper operator. He’s on a fire now and is talking it over with his partner and going to get back to me when he returns home.
Also talked with a different contractor who takes water tenders out and possibly would be a second operator for one of his rigs so where it can work 24 hours instead of 12.
Nothing for sure yet though.


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2020)

This is a great way to start. Best of luck.

Come to the GTG in November in Napa County and I'll tell you a few stories that don't fit in here. (Assuming we have a GTG).


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## RandyMac (Jul 22, 2020)

I have a few of those stories.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 25, 2020)

I was told a few days ago that Cal Fire was continuing to take applications for contractors as of this week. I do not know the reason maybe there has been a poor response from previous contractors. This years rate for fallers' was $2,000 a day. Which sounds great until you put all the expenses down. If however you can get a good array of assignments then it can be worth while. I received a much more positive response than I did several years ago. This year is out for me as I already have numerous commitments. I have two F250 4X4's which I would like to use with 400 gallons tanks, but they wanted 10,000 gallon capacity trucks which I will consider. I was trying to convey that I can be pretty much any place in California in 10 hours, but they were concerned about contractors being in certain zones or grids. At any rate one can get a great deal of information from their local coordinator. Maybe Dogs can elaborate on the system and protocol. Thanks


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## JRoland (Jul 26, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I was told a few days ago that Cal Fire was continuing to take applications for contractors as of this week. I do not know the reason maybe there has been a poor response from previous contractors. This years rate for fallers' was $2,000 a day. Which sounds great until you put all the expenses down. If however you can get a good array of assignments then it can be worth while. I received a much more positive response than I did several years ago. This year is out for me as I already have numerous commitments. I have two F250 4X4's which I would like to use with 400 gallons tanks, but they wanted 10,000 gallon capacity trucks which I will consider. I was trying to convey that I can be pretty much any place in California in 10 hours, but they were concerned about contractors being in certain zones or grids. At any rate one can get a great deal of information from their local coordinator. Maybe Dogs can elaborate on the system and protocol. Thanks



At the class we learned that the last two years they changed their call out protocol. So it is more likely that contractors get called to fires closer to them.
They call everyone in a 2 mile radius, then extend out in 2 mile increments until they have enough staffing.

That being said, they also don‘t have enough Contractors signed up so far, so they are having to call folks from a distance to meet their needs.


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## 2dogs (Jul 26, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I was told a few days ago that Cal Fire was continuing to take applications for contractors as of this week. I do not know the reason maybe there has been a poor response from previous contractors. This years rate for fallers' was $2,000 a day. Which sounds great until you put all the expenses down. If however you can get a good array of assignments then it can be worth while. I received a much more positive response than I did several years ago. This year is out for me as I already have numerous commitments. I have two F250 4X4's which I would like to use with 400 gallons tanks, but they wanted 10,000 gallon capacity trucks which I will consider. I was trying to convey that I can be pretty much any place in California in 10 hours, but they were concerned about contractors being in certain zones or grids. At any rate one can get a great deal of information from their local coordinator. Maybe Dogs can elaborate on the system and protocol. Thanks


Ted I assume you meant the pay for fallers is $2,000.00 per falling module, 2 guys.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 26, 2020)

2dogs said:


> Ted I assume you meant the pay for fallers is $2,000.00 per falling module, 2 guys.



Each Module consists basicly of one experienced saw operator and one aid for carring equipment and such. Each of those units should receive about $2,100 per day or per call. Each unit must have the ability to travel to remote difficult areas and then hike the rest of the way to the actual effected area or fire. The reason for a sturdy reliable 4 X 4 and supporting items. One thing that has been an issue with me is finding individuals who are ready to work at a moments notice and work hard. From my experience I have yet to be surprised, wind comes up humidity falls fires start and grab your hat. A team might need help in an area and excuses are not looked at in favored way. I think. Thanks


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## JRoland (Jul 27, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Each Module consists basicly of one experienced saw operator and one aid for carring equipment and such. Each of those units should receive about $2,100 per day or per call. Each unit must have the ability to travel to remote difficult areas and then hike the rest of the way to the actual effected area or fire. The reason for a sturdy reliable 4 X 4 and supporting items. One thing that has been an issue with me is finding individuals who are ready to work at a moments notice and work hard. From my experience I have yet to be surprised, wind comes up humidity falls fires start and grab your hat. A team might need help in an area and excuses are not looked at in favored way. I think. Thanks


Here’s the specs for the faller module from the current guide.


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## sbhooper (Sep 17, 2020)

My kid is a sawyer and he has told me that they limit the size of trees that he can cut. The big dogs are called in for huge/and/or dangerous trees. The average stuff is taken care of by the ground crews. He said that the fallers are no joke and cut some serious trees. They run big saws and really know what they are doing. It pays very well, but you had better have your act together to do that.


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## Ted Jenkins (Sep 17, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> My kid is a sawyer and he has told me that they limit the size of trees that he can cut. The big dogs are called in for huge/and/or dangerous trees. The average stuff is taken care of by the ground crews. He said that the fallers are no joke and cut some serious trees. They run big saws and really know what they are doing. It pays very well, but you had better have your act together to do that.



Yes we have big trees here that need to be brought down in a controlled manner. The work that I have seen done does not seem difficult at all. Most of the work that is needed are not huge trees, but trees that are currently burning that need to come down. Then there are just smaller trees that are in the way so they need to be cut. Some times a six footer need to be brought down quick so it should not be left for a rookie. 

I worked for the USDA USFS many years ago in many FF capacities, Helitack crew and so on. In my days hiring outside contractors was some thing the USFS did quite a bit of. In the Umatilla district where I worked there were always dozer operators that were contracting most of the year doing clearing. If their services were needed for FF duties they were called and they responded. It was not at all like the Cal Fire in California as I see it. The USFS always had a list of people to call for certain situations, but when they needed some one for some thing they would relax the rules. When Cal Fire first started to be an entity I tried to contact them offering services, but their attitude was that every thing was under control. Recently I was in contact with a supervisor who was very polite and quite personable. He was ready to assist to get people approved for out side contracting. In my immediate surrounding area two services are needed which are fallers and water tenders. One thing that Cal Fire will not budge on is their FF safety training class even though my experience and advance CPR training means nothing. So the FF safety class must be updated every year. Because of the Covid issue the classed were cut short. Right now water tending seems to be the most promising direction as far as immediate useful service. My contract supervisor said he would make the contact list available, but have not seen it yet. We have been overwhelmed with fires for the last two months though.

Maybe a thread to get contractors together to pool resources and gain experience would be in order. Thanks


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## JRoland (Sep 19, 2020)

After initially taking the class I went to work as a faller for a local logging contractor. It was good work, falling some decent hazard trees. Then our unit got burnt. Apparently we’re going back to log there soon, but driving a water tender on the fire is the gig for right now.


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## sbhooper (Sep 25, 2020)

Cal Fire is a s### s####. Out of state fire fighting crews cannot go fight fire there, until they go through Kalifornia fire training. SMDH. The arrogance and stupidity is what has gotten their state in the mess they are now.


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## JRoland (Sep 26, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> Cal Fire is a s### s####. Out of state fire fighting crews cannot go fight fire there, until they go through Kalifornia fire training. SMDH. The arrogance and stupidity is what has gotten their state in the mess they are now.


I’m not sure about the logistics for folks coming from out of state-
At this fire ( Creek Fire, I’m in the south zone) I see folks from various states ( a lot of rigs from Texas here) and I heard there’s crews from Mexico here - although I have not seen them. But I’ve also worked nights and been in pretty much one division / zone the whole time. There’s also military / National Guard crews.


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## atpchas (Sep 27, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> Cal Fire is a s### s####. Out of state fire fighting crews cannot go fight fire there, until they go through Kalifornia fire training. SMDH. The arrogance and stupidity is what has gotten their state in the mess they are now.


Is there at least a small possibility that Cal fire doesn't want to be sued when crews from other states with nothing comparable to California terrain encounter conditions for which they are completely unprepared? Here's some info on Nebraska's highest point - lousy prep for conditions in the coastal range, much less the Sierras.
*Panorama Point* also known as Constable Mountain, is the highest natural point in Nebraska, at an elevation of 5,429 feet (1,655 m) above sea level. It is located in southwestern Kimball County, near the point where Nebraska and Wyoming meet on Colorado's northern boundary. Despite its name and elevation, Panorama Point is not a mountain or a hill; it is merely a low rise on the High Plains.


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## Gologit (Sep 27, 2020)

atpchas said:


> Is there at least a small possibility that Cal fire doesn't want to be sued when crews from other states with nothing comparable to California terrain encounter conditions for which they are completely unprepared? Here's some info on Nebraska's highest point - lousy prep for conditions in the coastal range, much less the Sierras.
> *Panorama Point* also known as Constable Mountain, is the highest natural point in Nebraska, at an elevation of 5,429 feet (1,655 m) above sea level. It is located in southwestern Kimball County, near the point where Nebraska and Wyoming meet on Colorado's northern boundary. Despite its name and elevation, Panorama Point is not a mountain or a hill; it is merely a low rise on the High Plains.




Well said.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 28, 2020)

atpchas said:


> Is there at least a small possibility that Cal fire doesn't want to be sued when crews from other states with nothing comparable to California terrain encounter conditions for which they are completely unprepared? Here's some info on Nebraska's highest point - lousy prep for conditions in the coastal range, much less the Sierras.
> *Panorama Point* also known as Constable Mountain, is the highest natural point in Nebraska, at an elevation of 5,429 feet (1,655 m) above sea level. It is located in southwestern Kimball County, near the point where Nebraska and Wyoming meet on Colorado's northern boundary. Despite its name and elevation, Panorama Point is not a mountain or a hill; it is merely a low rise on the High Plains.


wait, theres a "high spot" in Nebraska? I remember hemp growing in the ditches but no hills to speak of.


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## Ted Jenkins (Sep 30, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> Cal Fire is a s### s####. Out of state fire fighting crews cannot go fight fire there, until they go through Kalifornia fire training. SMDH. The arrogance and stupidity is what has gotten their state in the mess they are now.



People from all over can work with or for Cal Fire provided that certain criteria is met. I have plenty of FF experience, but the updated class is essential and necessary. I do not agree with all requirements but it is the same for every one. The class in the past is about a $100 and can be completed in a long day. Requirements could change at any moment but for most part the conditions seem reasonable. A person could arrange to have equipment available at a certain location when red flag warnings arise. At the fire that was close to my house there were nine water tenders working hard for several days. Cal fire did not seem too particular how work progressed just make it happen. Thanks


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## Ted Jenkins (Sep 30, 2020)

JRoland said:


> After initially taking the class I went to work as a faller for a local logging contractor. It was good work, falling some decent hazard trees. Then our unit got burnt. Apparently we’re going back to log there soon, but driving a water tender on the fire is the gig for right now. View attachment 855948



My current truck is only available at 1100 to 1200 gallons which is possible to use for water tender, but I do not think the set up is ideal. JR your set up looks like a 4,000 gallon give or take and I would think that when fire season is over you will not want to drive for awhile. Probably a very good gig with some sell deserved break coming. I have been thinking pretty hard if I would allow my business to take on a tender responsibility. I will be sixty nine next season so not sure how much more gas is in the tank. Thanks


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## 2dogs (Oct 1, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> Cal Fire is a s### s####. Out of state fire fighting crews cannot go fight fire there, until they go through Kalifornia fire training. SMDH. The arrogance and stupidity is what has gotten their state in the mess they are now.



The problem with wankers from out of state is a common problem. If you knew anything about firefighting you would know that a lack of knowledge regarding local conditions is deadly. Look up "10 and 18s". Showing up to a fire as a freelancer will earn you an escort out of the area by law enforcement. Showing up with a water tender and one driver, or showing up with a chainsaw will get you the same treatment, regardless whether the fire is Cal Fire or federal. 

The 63 year old retired hairdresser from Texas who came out (with her son I believe) "to make a little money" who was killed in a crash had no business being here. (That opinion got me kicked of a wildland fire forum). I read she could cut line all day with the boys. Bull. Too many people think wildland firefighting consists of driving around in a Type 6 while the inmate hand crews do all the work. 

I have worked a contract water tender and been a contract (CWN) faller. I have worked with several contract fallers who were so much better than I was that I hardly spoke a word so I didn't look like a fool. For the guys that want to come to Cali to work as a faller lets start by asking how many 60" trees have you fallen? Have you hiked in a mile or two carrying everything you need? Who is you module partner? Have you ever worked a burn where snags are falling? There is nothing more dangerous than snags. OK you may not be scared of snags but I am. 

Out of staters should stay home unless you have formal training, the required certs, all the required PPE and radios, and have your will made out.


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## rwoods (Oct 1, 2020)

2dogs said:


> (That opinion got me kicked of a wildland fire forum).



Bravo. Telling it like it is has never been popular and seemingly even less so today. In the end, you usually earn the respect of those who use their heads. Even if you don't, you can maintain your own.

Ron


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## 2dogs (Oct 1, 2020)

Thanks Ron. So many people are so tender they can't abide anyone else having an opinion different than theirs.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 2, 2020)

2dogs said:


> Thanks Ron. So many people are so tender they can't abide anyone else having an opinion different than theirs.


Think far too many folks confuse opinion with facts these days, then get ass hurt when some one corrects them.

There is a reason I work alone


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## JRoland (Oct 2, 2020)

Ted Jenkins said:


> My current truck is only available at 1100 to 1200 gallons which is possible to use for water tender, but I do not think the set up is ideal. JR your set up looks like a 4,000 gallon give or take and I would think that when fire season is over you will not want to drive for awhile. Probably a very good gig with some sell deserved break coming. I have been thinking pretty hard if I would allow my business to take on a tender responsibility. I will be sixty nine next season so not sure how much more gas is in the tank. Thanks


Yep it’s 4000 gallons. They call it a “Tender, Water Type 1”. I was going to call it after the Creek fire until the logger I was working for needs me to cut trees. But then before I even made it home we got sent to the Glass Fire. 
I will be happy to go cut trees. In the daytime lol. My wife will be happier as well. I’m hoping.
As far as falling on the fires- the guy I was cutting with right before this is falling on the fire now- but I wasn’t signed up at the start. So next year I think. I think it will be more in my element than the water truck- but I’m getting used to the water tender thing now. 
Considering having your own water truck- it seems doable from what I’ve seen and some of the folks I’ve talked to. On a “good “fire year it is a nice gig- but you may end up scraping on a year with not that many fires. Although I’m not sure we’re heading for a year with less fires anytime soon.


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## Woodslasher (Oct 4, 2020)

JRoland said:


> Yep it’s 4000 gallons.... Considering having your own water truck- it seems doable from what I’ve seen and some of the folks I’ve talked to. On a “good “fire year it is a nice gig- but you may end up scraping on a year with not that many fires. Although I’m not sure we’re heading for a year with less fires anytime soon.


A buddy just got a new water truck and it’s around 7-8k plus a year to register/insure it. He’s a grading contractor, not a fire contractor so insurance would probably be a lot higher. Thanks to Commiefornia’s new laws he had to replace his reliable-but-crappy 1970 Mack, which drives less than 1k miles per year if it moves at all, with a 2010 or newer truck. $600 yearly to insure the old one, thousands per year for the new. Regardless of COVID, this year’s had enough crap going on that dropping 60k on a truck, unknown $ on swapping the tank/plumbing, and 7-8k for registering/insuring something that won’t even be used this year has him pretty ticked. As for less fires, look at the amount of unburned, overgrown, mismanaged brush/timber in CA and you’ll see we have all that’s needed to have tons of huge fires for years to come.


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## sbhooper (Oct 5, 2020)

2dogs said:


> The problem with wankers from out of state is a common problem. If you knew anything about firefighting you would know that a lack of knowledge regarding local conditions is deadly. Look up "10 and 18s". Showing up to a fire as a freelancer will earn you an escort out of the area by law enforcement. Showing up with a water tender and one driver, or showing up with a chainsaw will get you the same treatment, regardless whether the fire is Cal Fire or federal.
> 
> The 63 year old retired hairdresser from Texas who came out (with her son I believe) "to make a little money" who was killed in a crash had no business being here. (That opinion got me kicked of a wildland fire forum). I read she could cut line all day with the boys. Bull. Too many people think wildland firefighting consists of driving around in a Type 6 while the inmate hand crews do all the work.
> 
> ...


You are talking apples and oranges. When a whole crew of fire fighters show up already nationally certified, it is stupid to have to redo it to "Kalifornia standards". LMAO! SMDH! Stay on subject, instead of interjecting bs.


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## 2dogs (Oct 5, 2020)

Woodslasher said:


> A buddy just got a new water truck and it’s around 7-8k plus a year to register/insure it. He’s a grading contractor, not a fire contractor so insurance would probably be a lot higher. Thanks to Commiefornia’s new laws he had to replace his reliable-but-crappy 1970 Mack, which drives less than 1k miles per year if it moves at all, with a 2010 or newer truck. $600 yearly to insure the old one, thousands per year for the new. Regardless of COVID, this year’s had enough crap going on that dropping 60k on a truck, unknown $ on swapping the tank/plumbing, and 7-8k for registering/insuring something that won’t even be used this year has him pretty ticked. As for less fires, look at the amount of unburned, overgrown, mismanaged brush/timber in CA and you’ll see we have all that’s needed to have tons of huge fires for years to come.



A few weeks ago I worked with the owner of a timber company and his brand new, less than 30k miles, Freightliner water tender. I can't remember exactly how much it cost him but I think he said $120k. It's no wonder why contractors are paid well. All that plus no guarantee of work.

Incidentally that truck was all electronically controlled and the "hand throttle" wasn't working properly. I had to sit in the cab with the AC on and keep my foot on the gas peddle. It was brutally tough work. Plus the guy was not real happy since all his fire hose was stolen off the back of the tender the night before. Oh and while it was parked all his water was stolen OUT OF THE TANK.

My son is working rehab on two properties. Dang I wish he could clean his saw when he gets home. Yes he gets home after dark but still...


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## 2dogs (Oct 10, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> Cal Fire is a s### s####. Out of state fire fighting crews cannot go fight fire there, until they go through Kalifornia fire training. SMDH. The arrogance and stupidity is what has gotten their state in the mess they are now.


BS Hooper you do not know what you are talking about.


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## slowp (Oct 10, 2020)

Going to R-5 (somewhere in Orange County) Thanksgiving 1980. Our crew was a thrown together crew from the Okanogan. I had been learning to scale logs. The loudspeaker in fire camp called us the Oklahoma crew. We were from Warshington. (don't move here). We sat around a bit then finally went out to dig line. They gave us those weird brush cutter things and we had a hard time making progress. The next morning they reluctantly gave up a couple of chainsaws after stating that R-6 crews could not seem to do anything without a chainsaw. We made a lot better progress after getting a couple of saws. We were on steep slopes like we had at home, but these were covered in that tall and thick Chapparel? Manzanita? We made the most money on the day that we were told to build three waterbars. The fire was in the mop up stage and rehab was starting. It didn't take long to build three waterbars. It did take a long time to get picked up and hauled back to camp. We finally got some overtime. 

The people in charge seemed very budget conscious and didn't want crews to work longer than 8 hours, even when spiked out. We swore to never return.


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## catbuster (Oct 10, 2020)

Cal Fire has a strong structure and they don’t tun fast and loose. If a crew wants to come in they have to play by the rules. It’s not a hard concept to follow. I was last out there in 2018, and I don’t doubt that with the extreme fire behavior playing by their rules probably kept people alive.

The rules in this line of work we discuss here, be it fire, logging, road building, whatever other affiliated type of work are written in blood.

I’ve been red carded since 2004 (yeah yeah, nothing compared to some of you) and you may not like it but, dude, being nationally certified does not equal qualified. Certified means you have S-130, S-190, whatever ICS classes are required now, (I dunno, I’m up to 800 now) a field day, and a pack test done. Qualified means the whole crew knows the local terrain, conditions and has been around long enough to know when things are going around in the type of area they’re in. Cal Fire has tried to help this by California specific training.

Stop talking out of your ass. Not everybody likes the state, and that’s fine. However, that in no way means everything about the state is bad. I’d like to see some rules like Cal Fire has for crews traveling from region to region. You know, trying to make things so there’s a better chance of going home.


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## JRoland (Oct 10, 2020)

The last two fires I’ve been at ( Creek and Glass Fires) there were crews from all over the place. Texas, Washington, Idaho, Oregon, New Mexico, and various agencies from in California. All in all, thing went pretty smoothly, in my opinion ( disclaimer- I’ve never logged or worked on fires outside of California).
As my buddy said at the fire- “ There’s a lot of moving parts here”.
Why not have a standard that everyone is trained to/ competent at prior to arriving?
If that standard is higher than other standards, so be it. I’d hate to be the person who let some qualifier / standard slide to get more people on the scene and then have something happen to one of those folks.


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## slowp (Oct 11, 2020)

JRoland said:


> The last two fires I’ve been at ( Creek and Glass Fires) there were crews from all over the place. Texas, Washington, Idaho, Oregon, New Mexico, and various agencies from in California. All in all, thing went pretty smoothly, in my opinion ( disclaimer- I’ve never logged or worked on fires outside of California).
> As my buddy said at the fire- “ There’s a lot of moving parts here”.
> Why not have a standard that everyone is trained to/ competent at prior to arriving?
> If that standard is higher than other standards, so be it. I’d hate to be the person who let some qualifier / standard slide to get more people on the scene and then have something happen to one of those folks.


I have always been told that we do have *national* standards. That's what all the training is for. Hotshot crews are also known as IR crews, the IR stands for Inter Regional meaning that they can go anywhere. Unless Calfire is changing things on their own fires, the national standards should qualify folks to go to other areas. Local knowledge is a good thing, but in the bigger picture, it can be discussed at the morning briefings but crews have to use their own judgement and err on the safe side. For instance, we had smokejumpers walk off a fire on the Gifford Pinchot NF because they considered it to be too steep. On that slope, was a plantation where years before, we "locals" had worked all over it doing a broadcast burn. We were used to our type of topography. Just about every unit had a cliff in it part way down but there was also always a way to get through and down the cliff without dying. That was our local knowledge. The smokejumpers probably didn't know that, nor was it a "controlled " burn and made the decision that they were comfortable with. That's what you do. 

The Forest Service ships folks all over the country.


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## sbhooper (Oct 11, 2020)

2dogs said:


> BS Hooper you do not know what you are talking about.


Riiiggghhht! Some crews hate going there. The only good thing is the money. The rest is crap.


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## 2dogs (Oct 11, 2020)

Well BS Hooper crews coming to California to make money working fire do present a problem. When 3 out off shape fat guys show up, self dispatched, on a fire in our mountains trouble follows. They get paid all right but they can't be sent on difficult assignments for obvious reasons. Little volunteer departments from all over the west want a piece of the pie but contribute little to nothing to the outcome of the fire. Most of these volunteer departments come from inside Cali, they fund raise for a type 3 or type 6 telling their residents they will get more protection but then leave at the drop of a hat. That is BS too.


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## sbhooper (Oct 13, 2020)

OK, genius. If you are accusing contract crews that have been fighting fires all over the west for many years, of being fat and worthless, then we have issues. I would put my kid's contract crew up against any federal IHC anywhere. Anybody that has fought fire all over the west for an entire season, but has to recertify to "be given the "privilege" of fighting fires in Kalifornia, should be totally offended and pissed off. Kalifornia does not run the entire country-except in their own bureaucratic minds. LMFAO! Incredible.


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 13, 2020)

sbhooper said:


> my kid's





sbhooper said:


> My kid is





sbhooper said:


> interjecting bs.



Hey Genius, why don’t you get some first hand experience then come back. Until then shut your hole, you’re the one interjecting bs, and third hand BS at that. If you don’t want the strait scoop from people that live the situation and deal with it every season, well I guess it’s true what they say about fixing stupid. 

We just got done with some of them "certified, we’ve done it all” nightmare people up here. They're a catastrophe waiting to happen and when they do happen they usually take good people with them. Maybe that’s what some jurisdictions are trying to avoid. But hey, you don’t like it so we should change the rules for your kid, right. California isn’t trying to run the entire country, just California, if your boy don’t like it he can stay out of the sand box and play somewhere else. 



Owl


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