# Breaking into the biz...part-time?!?



## chile verde (Nov 17, 2011)

Hey all,

First off, I need to thank everyone for the past several weeks of tips, suggestions, and entertainment, despite the fact I've only been lurking and gleaning what I may from other folks' questions! I've searched high and low for similar threads to the one you're reading now...some similar hits, but by and large my situation is somewhat unconventional.

I REALLY want to learn a new set of ropes, specifically those of the professional arborist. Will I ever become a fulltime arborist? I can see that happening, given how much enjoyment I get out of being outdoors AND perched high above the ground...but short-term I have other motivations:

1. I've already taken down plenty of trees on my property, mostly Tree of Heaven (do these even qualify?), Siberian elm, and other junk trees which impede my various construction projects. I've got a couple of monster elms which need make-overs, and I recognize I'm at the limit of what a single dude with an 18v sawzall, a cheap-o 16" AC electric chainsaw, an arsenal of climbing gear and non-experiencial knowledge can accomplish. The professional quotes for the trees are all in the $2-4k range, depending upon neighborly accessibility. I am NOT merely a skinflint trying to get this done cheap: I see this as a great economic excuse to act upon a lifelong compulsion, and as you'll hopefully see, I've given this a lot of thought.

2. I've recently acquired a woodstove to help heat our house, and cords here in semi-rural NM start ~$180 for pinyon. Ouch. If I can feed both my need for a stimulating and productive hobby, as well as heat our adobe walls...why not? Especially after last winter's gas shortage, and this winter's looking no better (local horses were putting on their winter coats back in August...never a good sign!).

3. A perusal of the Tree Climber's Companion has revealed that I already possess about 70% of the ropes/rigging/safety knowledge, and _at least_ 50% of the gear. I've been an avid rockclimber and caver for over 10 years, have taught these through both university programs and informally, as well as facilitating at a ropes course for 5 years. Whether you're calling it a cow's tail, lobster claw, lanyard, or a tether, you need two of em attached to bomber anchors at all times and I'm already quite used to evolving both my vocab and technique with each new discipline. I'm also extremely calm and comfortable in situations which'd empty most folks' bladders, and am a very fast learner. I'm strong and quite agile...which helps. I'm also WFR certified so I'm even somewhat qualified to stabilize victims until an ambulance arrives...

I'm really fortunate to have a rewarding 40 hr/wk lab gig with modest pay, decent benefits and lots of time off. Unfortunately, it seems to me that having a regular job complicates the typical (?) groundie-up apprenticeship ritual. Just how realistic would I be to solicit my local companies for weekend groundie work, considering my motivations are to acquire: 1. working knowledge of a new and exciting approach to my childhood passion, 2. free firewood, and 3. additional skills to further both my future hireability, and personal satisfaction? 

The tradeoff being I'm already experienced in nearly every roped discipline save circus carnie and arborist (beyond my amateur hybrid caver/climber SRT), used to following safety protocols, own my own gear, etc...BUT my availability is limited, and a segue into fulltime status is not necessarily in the cards. 

If you were me, how would you market yourself? Is the weekend climber even a viable niche?


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## superjunior (Nov 20, 2011)

get a job with a tree service and learn from the ground up my friend


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Nov 20, 2011)

*working the biz*

Yes dragging brush is not glamourous. But its a starting point. Work some wkends with other workers\climbers. You will pick up helpfull hint as to what works or not. The more people your around. The more climbing info\styles you will be exposed to. Does your area have a rec climbing club? There is several forums to look thru. Good luck!!


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## Iustinian (Nov 20, 2011)

It should be fairly easy to get in part-time with a tree crew. I wouldnt tell them that you are planning on starting your own business though, or they may not be interested in working with you at all. Who knows though. Tell them that you have lots of climbing experience and that you want to apply it to arboriculture and develop your skills as a climber. Probably wouldn't hurt to tell them that you are also looking for a firewood resource (as a way to explain why you're only looking for part-time at the moment) and get yourself a little one-ton dump truck to haul it with, you can find those cheap. Then see how you feel about it after you've tried that. good luck


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## chile verde (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks all for the encouragement!

Iustinian, I think you're absolutely right, the free firewood aspect will be a simpler motive to explain than all the rest. 

Are weekends more, or less, busy than weekdays? How useful a niche would I be filling for the typical company? What're typical starting wages like for novices?


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## lxt (Nov 21, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Hey all,
> 
> First off,
> 
> ...




Where do I start with this? Oh yeah............Ill put it in chronological order for ya: A sawzall & 16" electric chainsaw.....woo whee you`re right you aint no skin flint thats trying to get it done cheap...............You`re an Idiot!!

A wood stove to heat the "adobe".....Good move! you splitting all that with your dremel tool?

70% of the ropes & 50% of the gear......................& 0% skill with even less commonsense!

rock jock & a caver..............& you`ve taught it.....! wow!............did I already say IDIOT? thought so!

what im thinking is you have spent too much time under the cows tail playing with your lobster claw while your pants have been filled with your own bladder..............somewhat qualified to stabilize victims????? you are or you are not...........somewhat? you are more than somewhat..........did I use the term Idiot to describe you? I thought so & thats not somewhat, thats all to clear.



LXT......................


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## chile verde (Nov 21, 2011)

lxt said:


> Where do I start with this? Oh yeah............Ill put it in chronological order for ya: A sawzall & 16" electric chainsaw.....woo whee you`re right you aint no skin flint thats trying to get it done cheap...............You`re an Idiot!!
> 
> A wood stove to heat the "adobe".....Good move! you splitting all that with your dremel tool?
> 
> ...



Awesome! Constructive criticism at its finest. I'd be mildly offended by your tone, but then, you don't actually know me...which makes your speculation just that: harmless speculation. As for why I should respect your opinions, that remains to be seen.

If you don't mind my askin...how exactly did you get started? Previous experience/education? Gear? Who'd you work for, at what capacity? Serious question: I believe something can be learnt from everyone...even you!

I'm struggling to understand the source of your vitriole. Is it a pride thing? Trees are for tree-people, end of story, and the only acceptable newbies are unemployed laborers who can barely tie their shoes? Or is it a competition thing? Do you feel threatened that there's other climbers from related disciplines who might steal your jobs? Or is this merely a bored A$$hole thing? 

I honestly don't get it. 90% of arborist SRT evolved out of caver SRT, yet when an experienced caver decides to climb a tree...you piss yourself. Says more about you, than it does about me.


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## Iustinian (Nov 21, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Thanks all for the encouragement!
> 
> Iustinian, I think you're absolutely right, the free firewood aspect will be a simpler motive to explain than all the rest.
> 
> Are weekends more, or less, busy than weekdays? How useful a niche would I be filling for the typical company? What're typical starting wages like for novices?



I think it really depends on the companies that are in your area, and the time of year. Typical company? there's no such thing hahaha. I'm not familiar with your area but I would expect that you'll have large companies with multiple crews, bucket trucks, employees that only pick up and haul logs, employees that only grind stumps, etc and small companies that are still piling brush into a dump trailer, and everything in between. 

Around here, there are ALOT of tree services that have an old electrical service bucket truck, a chip truck and chipper and NO CLIMBER. If you find one of those, they are going to be more patient with you during your learning curve, and they will probably be flexible with you on scheduling. 

Have you thought about going thru the ArborMaster training?


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## lxt (Nov 22, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Awesome! Constructive criticism at its finest. I'd be mildly offended by your tone, but then, you don't actually know me...which makes your speculation just that: harmless speculation. As for why I should respect your opinions, that remains to be seen.
> 
> If you don't mind my askin...how exactly did you get started? Previous experience/education? Gear? Who'd you work for, at what capacity? Serious question: I believe something can be learnt from everyone...even you!
> 
> ...




Well my Lil pudding eater, you dont need to respect my opinions! I see your type on here all the time....ask a bunch of dumb questions & think you have the intellect to grasp & apply what you`ve been told..........you dont cave boy!

I grew up in this Biz, worked as a groundie @ 18 was hired on by Asplundh, went through a climbing apprenticeship, became a journey man, climbed for numerous Companies residential & commercial (line clearance) & so on.....

you are as big a threat as flushed stool & thinking you can start a biz with a sawzall & electric chainsaw is just down right the anal seal break you are! you are a troll....! you wanna enter the Biz? Go get a job with a tree service & learn, people like you come on here wanting to start your own Biz..........why? Cause you dont have the ability to work for an established company & learn...you wanna be the boss cause you knowitall & on top of that you think you`ll make big bucks......Not!

Caver......you are funny! when you land a job with a tree care company let us know....till then, just keep scratchin the dandruff off your sak...............





LXT...................


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## chile verde (Nov 22, 2011)

Iustinian:
If anything I'm too patient! I'm too poor/busy right now to afford Arbormaster training, but I'd jump on it in a heartbeat given the opportunity. The plan right now is to land a weekend groundie gig and absorb as much as possible, collect next year's firewood, and re-assess my problem trees. If I can earn some gas money...bonus. I've already been pruning everything else on my property (<40' tall) for the past 5 years...gotten quite efficient and developing an eye for shape, anticipating future growth, and balancing fruit production with overall health...but I obviously need some hands-on experience w a professional outfit before committing to anything really big like my elms. Real 'idiotic', huh?

Oh, goodie! It's the smart guy:


lxt said:


> Well my Lil pudding eater, you dont need to respect my opinions! I see your type on here all the time....ask a bunch of dumb questions & think you have the intellect to grasp & apply what you`ve been told..........you dont cave boy!


You're absolutely right. Respect must be earned. Based on your fuzzy grammar, vocab and articulation of thought, your previous post had me suspecting you were a 12 yr old who'd recently leapt beyond 'dumb' and 'stupid', and were practicing to take the plunge, publically using advanced 3-syllable words like...'idiot'. Nothing wrong with prepubescents flexing their intellectual might! Quite sadly, though: I can only infer that you are but an insecure, semi-literate adult with a little too much freetime.



> I grew up in this Biz, worked as a groundie @ 18 was hired on by Asplundh, went through a climbing apprenticeship, became a journey man, climbed for numerous Companies residential & commercial (line clearance) & so on.....


That's actually pretty cool. I think one of this country's worst economic/business developments over the past 3+ decades, is the loss of so many apprenticeship trades. Tons of jobs, skills and even subcultures are being lost with each successive generation, and we're really screwing ourselves in the longrun. You should consider yourself fortunate. Do you employ any apprentices? What are their backgrounds?



> you are as big a threat as flushed stool & thinking you can start a biz with a sawzall & electric chainsaw is just down right the anal seal break you are! you are a troll....! you wanna enter the Biz? Go get a job with a tree service & learn, people like you come on here wanting to start your own Biz..........why? Cause you dont have the ability to work for an established company & learn...you wanna be the boss cause you knowitall & on top of that you think you`ll make big bucks......Not!


I see you're not even reading my posts, just launching yourself from the shoulders of a strawman built of assumptions and preconceived notions...

Apologies if I came across as a knowitall, but seriously: which statement exactly, in either post, makes you think I wanna become a self-starting boss? Or that I don't have the ability to work or learn?!? Or even that I aim to start a biz with a friggin 18v cordless sawzall and a 94' Mazda B2300!?! Seems to me the problem lies within your appalling reading comprehension, NOT overconfidence on my part...

My sole intention behind this thread is to determine whether my plan is realistic. Others have stated outright that part-time weekend groundie work is probably a reasonable gig to explore. If they'd instead told me "no way, nobody works on weekends, nor is there demand for part-timer newbies" methinks I'd be spending my time right now getting quotes...not stubbornly trying to teach myself how to do something that I'm clearly unqualified to attempt.


> you are a troll....!


Huh.


> Caver......you are funny! when you land a job with a tree care company let us know....till then, just keep scratchin the dandruff off your sak...............
> LXT...................


I will be sure to do that, although I suspect those scaley patches on my nutsack are just the potato chip crumbs you neglected to wipe off your chin...

I'll ask your mom to doublecheck for me. You know. Just in case...she did once mention something about your 'affliction'...


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## lxt (Nov 22, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Hey all,
> 
> 1. I've already taken down plenty of trees on my property, mostly Tree of Heaven (do these even qualify?), Siberian elm, and other junk trees which impede my various construction projects. I've got a couple of monster elms which need make-overs, and
> 
> ...




My, you use a lot of big words.........We is just but humble tree trimmers here! Now onto my apalling reading comprehension as you called it? Look above at what you wrote & then look at your most recent post of where you ask (stupidly) about the sawzall & elec chainsaw!!

continuing: so you have given it alot of thought? you come on here using verbality & grammatical savy to try & make up for the chaffing you received from a woman deprived father, You currently make modest pay with lots of time off....perhaps some goldbond applications during these down time moments would help.......I hear @ your house the father & son relationship is very special, ask Dad for some application pointers!

oh & BTW I dont like potato chips.............in your case a single pringle would shadow your manhood & leave you asking grandma to encourage your battered ego with incandescent thoughts of going through puberty again..........!

thought I might use some big words so I can feel special like you..........without the Dad love you have going on! Best thing to do is apply for a job sprout........you got the come backs & will fit right in!!! they gonna like a young one like you..........."you got a pretty mouth boy".... ahh but you have heard that before!!! 

welp boys another wannabe, we`ll see how long he stays!



LXT..............


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 22, 2011)

You should be fine with your setup for years to come , as long as all the houses have light plugs you'll be a millionaire within a year ... I actually got started in trees :bang: because I was a well trained monkey trainer , so I figured I was suitable and well qualified , GOOD LUCK ....


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## chile verde (Nov 22, 2011)

lxt said:


> Now onto my apalling reading comprehension as you called it? Look above at what you wrote & then look at your most recent post of where you ask (stupidly) about the sawzall & elec chainsaw!!



_*I recognize I'm at the limit of what a single dude with* an 18v sawzall, a cheap-o 16" AC electric chainsaw..._

My points still stand (unlike your pathetic excuse of manhood). I couldn't justify/afford buying a real saw for dropping a few dozen smallish Tree of Heaven and Siberian Elm, and beyond that it's still slow-but-OK for cutting rounds. Sorry for not splurging on a Stihl or Husqvarna, but anything bigger than my crap-o-matic Remington would be needless...



> continuing: so you have given it alot of thought? you come on here using verbality & grammatical savy to try & make up for the chaffing you received from a woman deprived father, You currently make modest pay with lots of time off....perhaps some goldbond applications during these down time moments would help.......I hear @ your house the father & son relationship is very special, ask Dad for some application pointers!


Savvy, am I? Thanks. I guess.

I don't share your telepathic powers of intuition, and couldn't possibly have known your woman's gone bye-bye, though it's not too difficult to infer her motives (she left you for an Amish man's sexy beard?). Tom Waits could write a song about you, and it might even earn some radio time.

Just don't bag on Goldbond, that stuff's magic and doesn't deserve your sacrilegous comments...can we possibly agree here?



> oh & BTW I dont like potato chips.............in your case a single pringle would shadow your manhood & leave you asking grandma to encourage your battered ego with incandescent thoughts of going through puberty again..........!


Again, not telepathic, and before you start a cock-waving contest you'd best be able to find it.



> thought I might use some big words so I can feel special like you..........without the Dad love you have going on! Best thing to do is apply for a job sprout........you got the come backs & will fit right in!!! they gonna like a young one like you..........."you got a pretty mouth boy".... ahh but you have heard that before!!!
> 
> welp boys another wannabe, we`ll see how long he stays!


Yep, I suppose so. My mouth _is_ quite pretty, unlike yours...amongst other flaws, your upper right canine is chipped and left me a little sore that last time 'round.



treeclimber101 said:


> You should be fine with your setup for years to come , as long as all the houses have light plugs you'll be a millionaire within a year ... I actually got started in trees because I was a well trained monkey trainer , so I figured I was suitable and well qualified , GOOD LUCK ....


Well, gee, haven't you got me pegged. I actually lied about the sawzall: my most favoritest tool is the rusty Harbor Freight handaxe I stole from Salvation Army...no AC required, so I figure I'm ready to incorporate!

Anybody else?

Meantime, thanks mods, it sure is nice being able to post without waiting 1-2 days for approval! It's prolly been killing lxt, whose rambling flamefest monogues so richly deserve a prompt response.

Thanks to everyone else, too. I'll start calling around and see what's what!


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## Iustinian (Nov 22, 2011)

well - that was funny, and somewhat entertaining haha. happens alot here, but if you are willing to sift thru all that, there's lots of good info to be had/shared here.


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## chile verde (Nov 22, 2011)

Iustinian said:


> well - that was funny, and somewhat entertaining haha. happens alot here, but if you are willing to sift thru all that, there's lots of good info to be had/shared here.



For sure. Thx again all, and happy turkey-day...that's me signing off for the week.

lxt: surely, you can wait til Mon for my response to your inevitable puddle of insults, right?


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## lxt (Nov 22, 2011)

Look, you come on to a forum gushing with wants of the trade on how to do it, Then in a toddler of a fit you lash out because we poke fun at you for using the "sawzall & electric chainsaw"............then to add more stupidity to your prattle (as if it is even possible) you state "I couldnt afford" to buy a "real" saw!!!!! 

But you have tons of ropes & gear, NEWSFLASH.......... you wont go far in the tree biz without a "real" Saw!

The best thing you can do is to call around & get in with a good outfit, learn all you can, give it 2-3 years & then give it a try on your own..........if you even stick with it? you will learn real fast that this trade is unforgiving, the Vets will bust ya balls to see if you will stick it out........they dont wanna waste their time training a quitter & one day if you make it that far when you go through a few quitters then you`ll understand..............we weed out the unwanted in the field same as we do on here & you just got a small sample of reality!!!

Good Luck!


LXT...............


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## Iustinian (Nov 22, 2011)

lxt said:


> The best thing you can do is to call around & get in with a good outfit, learn all you can, give it 2-3 years & then give it a try on your own..........if you even stick with it? you will learn real fast that this trade is unforgiving, the Vets will bust ya balls to see if you will stick it out........they dont wanna waste their time training a quitter & one day if you make it that far when you go through a few quitters then you`ll understand..............we weed out the unwanted in the field same as we do on here & you just got a small sample of reality!!!
> 
> Good Luck!
> 
> ...



I agree 1000%! 

We do what less than 1% of anyone will do. We risk our lives EVERY day. We have to haul our 165-250lbs selves up +70ft before we can begin working (that's our "long drive to the office"). We have to accurately project the forces which we will create, and determine whether or not our equipment and the trees themselves will support what is needed to get the material safely to the ground without killing or injuring any person and destroying any property below. We work in one of the most dangerous industries there is -- Everyday. 

"We are charged with the responsibility of caring for organisms that have the potential to live for centuries, very few professions can say that" (John Ball) Yet how much does the "typical" treeworker know about the tree he's working in. I'd like to think that the majority of the guys on this forum have learned from education and experience and are taking that quote seriously. Stick around, and you'll see that there are some seriously educated, seriously talented, seriously experienced members here. (but also some idiots)

And people typically have such little respect for us and what we do, and what we have to go thru to get it done. People undervalue our work. Other people have such little respect for us that they think they can get a trailer to haul brush and a chainsaw and start a tree service tommorrow. 

I can specifically remember one day, a newbie groundguy being on a cell phone while I'm getting ready to send a rigged log down telling me "just a minute, I'm on the phone" -- when I explained how that was the last time he was ever going to be caught on the phone while someone's in a tree, he says "its just a [eff]ing tree service" -- REALLY? so basically, you're telling us that our life's work ain't jack? hmmmmm. The roper snapped his flip phone in half and chased him off the job. 

We can be very unforgiving -- because we have to be. A single mistake can impact many lives and thousands somedays +$1m's of property.

I try to be nice, but that's just me. Everyone has to start somewhere, but I agree with lxt -- its best to start with another company, take the insults with a grain of salt and put your time in working hard with little acknowledgement other than a small check and go from there (which I think was your intent). Chances are, the guys you will be working for have watched a single crew turn over more than a dozen times in a year or two. This is the truth: I saw a company with 4 crews turn over 3 times in 1 year -- in less than one year I was the senior man, shouldn't be that way, but I moved on to a higher paying company the next spring.


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## no tree to big (Nov 22, 2011)

ok first I would like to start by saying this has to be one of the best threads on this site!

second my opinion of the OP's plan...


chile verde, how much did you spend on that electric chainsaw? cause I'm betting you could have spent the same amount of money and at least bought yourself a homeowner grade gas powered saw off ebay or craigslist, ok maybe 20 bucks more... a sawzall???? thats just retarded... hell today I tuned up the little husqvarna 136 I picked up for 75 bucks thing was almost new came with a brand new narrow kerf bar and chain that little guy sure screams for what it is. Moral of the story you NEED a real saw if I was a homeower and saw you looking for a plug or saw you up in my tree with a sawzall id tell you to get lost 

and a bit from how I got started ever since I was a youngster I always wanted to help with firewood duties and just liked watching things get cut down then around 13 I started running a little saw (16" mac 3200) and slowly progressed into felling smaller trees in the woods then at 16 I started climbing and doing some easy removals (no rigging) and by easy I mean spike up and have to make a few cuts and your done. all this solely for getting free firewood then at about 18-19 I started doing some smaller paying gigs once again very easy stuff minimal rigging. by 21 I thought I had a good grasp on rigging and a decent skills set when it came to climbing and had started taking on pretty "risky"stuff then I got a job as a groundie and boy did I have a wake up call I new NOTHING about tree work!!!!! you need to work for a real co. for a while to get an idea of whats going on and I dont mean just go work for someone and drag brush I mean drag your brush and pay attention to what the climber is doing and how he moves around watch how he gets up and over big gnarly crotches how he balances himself on 4" wood, everything!!! watch how every piece is rigged what does the piece do when the rope is tied here as opposed to there? and I'm sorry to say but working one day a week its going to take a long time to get all this jammed in your head not to mention from my personel experience saturdays are reserved for the easy jobs so your going to be on more of a learning curve.

one thing to show you climbing trees and cutting them down is so much different then any other climbing why are there so many news stories anbout firefighters getting killed doing tree work? they all are extensivly trained in rope skills...

don't go and do anything stupid and make yourself dead we need you to post your experiences just like AA, lol


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## no tree to big (Nov 22, 2011)

Iustinian said:


> I agree 1000%!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not so much this jobsince I'm stil the "new guy" but with the last one I had but I can see where it would work in this line of work, I was in a managment role most of the time, I was probably the toughest person to work for in the building bt you know what I had the best crew n the building I went through a lot of new people but when I got a person with good work ethic and wasn't an idiot me being tough made them a very solid employee in a very short time.

there must be some big diferences in people from where I live to where you live because in the co. I'm with there is no turnover I mean I was the second person hired in 3 or 4 years same thing with a lot of the other co.s around here


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## Iustinian (Nov 22, 2011)

no tree to big said:


> there must be some big diferences in people from where I live to where you live because in the co. I'm with there is no turnover I mean I was the second person hired in 3 or 4 years same thing with a lot of the other co.s around here



varies from company to company really. I was once at a place where the ground guy had been there for over 20 years.


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## superjunior (Nov 24, 2011)

I agree 100% with the first 3 post on this page. 
OP, your gonna get a lot of the "business" from the vets here as well as the vets out in the field. This job can and WILL kill you - dead... PERIOD!..If you let your guard down for a second.
Like some of the other posters here, I too have been climbing trees right out of high school, some 22 years ago. I've had lots of close calls and consider myself lucky to still be in one piece. This job aint no joke, far from it.. Why do you think our insurance companies love us so much?
I think you get it now, get a job with a tree service and absorb as much as you can.
Yes - we all started from the ground up. Good luck!


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## chile verde (Nov 29, 2011)

*quite the lesson in humility!*

Alright! I think I've got it...

I totally goofed from the very first post, and it was all downhill from there. Let my mistakes be a testament to all future newbs...the correct way to initiate a query:

http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/186237.htm

Short, simple, to the point, and no unnecessary personal details. Had I instead posted:

"Hi! I want to eventually learn to be a climbing arborist, but to support my family I have a 40 hr job. How open are most outfits to employing part-timer, weekend-only groundies?"

If I'd kept it to that, I seriously doubt I'd have caught so much flak. I realize now that it really doesn't matter whether your personality or background might increase a newb's employability. Have you got extensive high angle experience using similar safety protocols and gear, but in a different setting? Don't mention it like I did! To some folks that's merely ammo: "you _must _be an idiotic know-it-all, just enough knowledge to be dangerous, making some sophomoric attempt to assert your superiority over us saw-slingin, knuckle-draggin slobs!". In my case, nothing could be further from the truth.



lxt said:


> Look, you come on to a forum gushing with wants of the trade on how to do it, Then in a toddler of a fit you lash out because we poke fun at you for using the "sawzall & electric chainsaw"............then to add more stupidity to your prattle (as if it is even possible) you state "I couldnt afford" to buy a "real" saw!!!!!


I don't know about you, but when someone takes a swipe at me...I punch back. I regret my first post, but will only apologize so far as providing you with reasons to help you discriminate against my climbing resume. Do you really not see anything in _your_first post, which might be perceived as nonspecific criticism? If you'd instead lead with harsh yet informative comments (THEN call me an idiot) we'd be fine, but simply repeatedly calling someone an idiot based off your _assumptions_...that's not engaging in discussion or debate. That's only picking a fight. Sorry for responding in kind.

It took you a week to prove my suspicions (that you're capable of meaningful discussion), lxt, but when I try to see it from your perspective, you start to make some sense.

Arborist work is clearly a very unforgivingly dangerous business; one mistake can quickly lead to death or dismemberment, and even when all the cards are anticipated and played correctly, you can STILL die in some freak accident. ENCOURAGING most people to jump into this game would be downright irresponsible. Arborists MUST be hard-asses, if only to weed-out the incompetents who are a hazard to themselves and everyone with whom they work. 

Despite your prejudices, lxt, I do understand this thinning process firsthand (is it not common to ALL careers, in some shape or form?). The only difference is that in my field, failures lead to termination of employment...not LIFE...which is why I don't lead with idiot, Idiot, IDIOT every time a technician seems to overstep his abilities. Given the nature of your daily work, I can certainly forgive your aggressive attitude towards newbs: how can anyone argue against a reaction rooted in self-preservation? Especially a reaction which I suspect (pure speculation here) might be periodic and habitual behavior?



> The best thing you can do is to call around & get in with a good outfit, learn all you can, give it 2-3 years & then give it a try on your own..........if you even stick with it? you will learn real fast that this trade is unforgiving, the Vets will bust ya balls to see if you will stick it out........they dont wanna waste their time training a quitter & one day if you make it that far when you go through a few quitters then you`ll understand..............we weed out the unwanted in the field same as we do on here & you just got a small sample of reality!!!


Huh, that was a most uncharacteristically straightforward, almost paternal response. I appreciate (finally) getting the explanation I've been craving.


> Good Luck!


Thanks!

Sorry if I came across as disrespectful of your work, and be assured that my own attitude stemmed from the need to defend myself against a relatively uninformed and seemingly disproportionate attack on my own (in)abilities. I doubt there's any need for further insults. Despite whatever you might think, I totally get that this is a really dangerous profession which absolutely demands a lengthy break-in apprenticeship period; where even experts...in a moment of complacency, or simply due to bad luck...can quickly find themselves dead. I've already nearly killed myself several times and have learned to be efficient, methodical, and flexible, yet cautious of rushing, eliminating steps or taking unnecessary risks. I like to think that a lot of my skills and equipment will also carry over, but only an Idiot would assume they'd jump into the saddle from the get-go!

No Tree too Big:
Good stuff, thanks! It *is *pretty ridiculous how much I've already managed to do successfully, using barely adequate equipment, and you're all totally right that I absolutely must acquire a REAL saw...something I've known for years. However, REAL saws require regular use and maintenance...and all along my $50 Remington (pulled out every 3-4 mo) is basically just a disposable fill-gap measure. My cash has been tied up building various sheds, coops, barns, etc and I'm just now able to seriously look at some Stihls. New ones. I'd love to score a deal at a pawnshop, possibly even clean/rebuild one eventually, but right now I lack the experience to make a good decision on used saws. Plenty more saw research to be done, which itself is pretty exciting.

Iustinian:
I LOVE that John Ball quote. You guys have way more responsibility (trees...property...LIVES!) than most folks, yet for whatever reason our culture (in the US at any rate) stigmatizes skilled labor, especially anyone remotely associated with "Landscaping". I can think of very few careers which see overlaps in so many areas of expertise: biology, physics, geology, law, rigging, climbing, teamwork, 2 cycle engine repair, saw maintenance, first aid...

In retrospect it's easy to see why lxt is so touchy, but idiot or not, if I really thought my plan were so simple and immediately rewarding...would I have started this thread in the first place?


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 29, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Alright! I think I've got it...
> 
> I totally goofed from the very first post, and it was all downhill from there. Let my mistakes be a testament to all future newbs...the correct way to initiate a query:
> 
> ...



In the future can ya shorten the post a bit ... Just saying .........no one wants to read a novel ....


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## Iustinian (Nov 29, 2011)

you can always ask us about saws. and read the posts in the chainsaw forum hahaha.

My preferred brand is Stihl, but different strokes for different folks. I've operated and/or owned almost every professional series Stihl saw.

If you're going to be a climber there's two Stihl saws you'll be looking at for limbing and trimming: 192TC & and MS200T (theres 192T and also 020T, older models).
192's are about half the price of a 200T and about half the power. If you keep a 192 clean and sharp, its a great starter saw, and some climbers never upgrade, but once you've run the 200T, its hard to go back. 

again, good luck and let us know how things go...


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## chile verde (Nov 30, 2011)

Iustinian said:


> you can always ask us about saws. and read the posts in the chainsaw forum hahaha.


Oh yes, already scouring old posts, not quite ready to start a new chainsaw thread ("_Hey guys! I'm upgrading from a Ridgid X3 sawzall...!"_:msp_smile. My head still hurts a little from this one...



> My preferred brand is Stihl, but different strokes for different folks. I've operated and/or owned almost every professional series Stihl saw.
> 
> If you're going to be a climber there's two Stihl saws you'll be looking at for limbing and trimming: 192TC & and MS200T (theres 192T and also 020T, older models).
> 192's are about half the price of a 200T and about half the power. If you keep a 192 clean and sharp, its a great starter saw, and some climbers never upgrade, but once you've run the 200T, its hard to go back.
> ...



I'm less than a mile from a great Stihl dealer. Even if I hadn't settled on on this brand (based on extensive research and talking to everyone imagineable), such convenient proximity to expert service would be tough to beat.

I think I'd be a bit premature pulling the trigger on a T series, since realistically I'm looking at 1+yr on the ground. I'm currently looking at their small, basic saws, capable of handling 2-3 cords of firewood/yr, felling >18" dia trees, as well as being suitable for most groundie cleanup duties (50~60 days/yr (?), based on my limited availability). I prefer easier maintenance over having "easy-start" mechanisms and other goodies, as I'd rather learn a basic saw inside-out than deal with having more things to screw up.


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## Iustinian (Nov 30, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Oh yes, already scouring old posts, not quite ready to start a new chainsaw thread ("_Hey guys! I'm upgrading from a Ridgid X3 sawzall...!"_:msp_smile. My head still hurts a little from this one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree with you, because I'd rather see you show up, equipped with a climbing saw. You can use a 192TC for groundwork (very easily for limbs and stuff less than 16") and have a great climbing saw for when you start your climbing. 2 birds, 1 stone. $300 new. $150 used, I can help you find one if you want. You get a saw that is not 'tophandled' (t) and you're gonna be clumsy in a tree with it. srsly

If you insist on getting a cheap groundsaw first, then go with a MS170 ($200new) or 210. Now if you wanna get a GOOD groundsaw, get a ms260pro, or ms361, if they still have them, you'll continue to have a use for them as u grow. Again, if you have questions, ask away; I can help you find a nice used one, even if it needs a few parts, I can tell you the fair price and fix it up for you for considerably less than a new one if your'e willing to wait for the right saw in your price range -- i buy parts saws and fix them up to build affordable saws for friends all the time.


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## lxt (Dec 1, 2011)

C V, I hear ya! the only way I can explain the harshness is: I see so many wannabes come on here wanting info & asking questions that they`re not even ready to have answered....cause they`re not at that level yet!

Even in the real world I have so many newbs/wannabes apply for work & every now & then I need the extra help....so Ill have a guy come out with us to check em out, byt the end of the day all the person really wanted to know was: why that saw, what type of rope is that, what do you charge for a tree like this?, do you need a chipper & so on....

the questions arent for inquisitive purposes for learning the job, they`re for the purpose of this guy going out & trying to do it on his own..........surprising how many people think they can learn enough in one day to start their own biz!!!! whats even funnier is 2 months down the road when one of these types calls ya cause they got in over their head & need help!

I think you understand why I was so harsh....? hopefully you will stick with it & let us know of your progress.............cause if you dont stick with it, can you imagine what I will be like to the next guy??? LOL

Good Luck!


LXT...............


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## treemandan (Dec 1, 2011)

Oh we are " yer momming" each other? Its weak, give it up, you'll either kill yerself or somebody else will.


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## chile verde (Dec 2, 2011)

Man, you guys are great!

Iustinian: 
That's both a truly awesome revelation (treesaw = workable groundie-saw), and super generous offer. Here I was assuming the specialized treesaws would be relatively unwieldy for an afternoon of bucking...but then again ANYTHING's an improvement over my electric.

Speak o the devil, an 026:
Stihl 026 chainsaw

I'll need to see how my finances pan out post-Xmas apocalypse, then PM you when I'm ready to buy.

LXT:
I can totally see that. No hard feelings, eh?

Dan:
You're a little late; I've already wiped the lipstick off my face, but if you're really into sloppy seconds I understand...


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## Iustinian (Dec 2, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Man, you guys are great!
> 
> Iustinian:
> That's both a truly awesome revelation (treesaw = workable groundie-saw), and super generous offer. Here I was assuming the specialized treesaws would be relatively unwieldy for an afternoon of bucking...but then again ANYTHING's an improvement over my electric.
> ...



for $25 more in that area, you could have the 290 farmboss. Stihl Farm Boss Chainsaw (18") - Model Its a little bigger than an 026, but more of a homeowner saw IMO. Its listed as like new, and comes with protective gear and an extra chain. That would be the better buy if you're spending the money this week. You'd still need a climbing saw though lol

$300 is ok money for a 026 if its in decent shape. Pro version only differs in that it has a decompress button on the top, which really isnt absolutely necessary on saw that size. ms 260 pro is the first saw that I bought; at the time, it was all I could afford, so I used it as a climb saw, but it was clumsy, because its not top-handled. I still have it though, and its a champ -- a great bucket saw. For the same price ($300) you can buy a new 192TC with a 14" bar, and you've got yourself a very nice climbing saw, and it would be great for prepping limbs to go into the chipper. For bucking logs, the crew you hook up with should have a bigger saw. 

I did a couple sidejobs with my 260pro, and bought a 192TC new, and then a MS 361, a badass saw which will almost always get you down to the stump cut at least around here. 361's respond REALLY WELL to porting, and more than one of my friends has had 3' bars on their ported ones when nothing else was available on the jobsite.


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## no tree to big (Dec 2, 2011)

i'm going to have to disagree on the 290 is a better deal then the 260 you can find a 290 for much less money then the one linked for $325 and if I had a 260 and a 290 sitting side by side both with an 18" bar I would grab the 260 everytime its much lighter and much more compact, yes less power, but I'll sacrifice the little bit. seems the 260 has more power per cc then the 290 in my opinion the 290 is weight for weight the equivalent of a 440. 

the 260 that comes out with my crew is like 6 years old give or take thing is beat to hell but still runs great i seen it drop 40 feet and it didn't miss a beat went right back up for the next cut now my 290 if I dropped it 40ft I think it would explode into little bits...


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Dec 2, 2011)

You'd also be amazed how handy a good hand saw is when you start climbing. Saves fuel for your bigger cuts and is extremely quick. I can make a cut and move on before I could have started my 200.


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## treemandan (Dec 2, 2011)

CNBTreeTrimming said:


> You'd also be amazed how handy a good hand saw is when you start climbing. Saves fuel for your bigger cuts and is extremely quick. I can make a cut and move on before I could have started my 200.



More practice with that 200 should solve that problem. But seriously, it will.


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## treemandan (Dec 3, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Man, you guys are great!
> 
> Iustinian:
> That's both a truly awesome revelation (treesaw = workable groundie-saw), and super generous offer. Here I was assuming the specialized treesaws would be relatively unwieldy for an afternoon of bucking...but then again ANYTHING's an improvement over my electric.
> ...




No, you allready said it, can't go back, it appears its your mode of operation which is a liablity to me. You'll do it again and who knows what else you'll cry about when its time to not to. In my mind I am allready trying to talk a crew member out of killing you. I have a chance of talking him out of it, I really don't believe you do. True colors. Thanks fer sharing. Maybe you do need a regiment of tree work, it jess might learn ya how to hold yer water. And don't think anything you said or will say is gonna get my goat though I just might let you git yer ass kicked for that boy.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 3, 2011)

chile verde said:


> Man, you guys are great!
> 
> Iustinian:
> That's both a truly awesome revelation (treesaw = workable groundie-saw), and super generous offer. Here I was assuming the specialized treesaws would be relatively unwieldy for an afternoon of bucking...but then again ANYTHING's an improvement over my electric.
> ...



Ok now them guys been telling you wrong but don't worry since you have not already purchased a saw yet your saved. I am going to inform you of a secret real tree men know!































































XP
HUSKY KICKS


 You will thank me someday:monkey:











Now if you get a job with a real pro, work hard , learn all you can, then incorporate your skill learned in mountaineering but keeping it separate too, you might make it. The real problem is from a monetary perspective. Everyone but the owner makes money and if he survives then all's well. All too many see a man collect 2k on a one day job and assume its a rich gig. What they never seem to see is it gets sent to equipment purchases,maintenance,insurance,licensing,advertizing,cpa,and many other ticks of profit!


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## ozzy42 (Dec 3, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


>



Not enough reach:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## lxt (Dec 3, 2011)

Ropes...............typical Husky saw, they dont put the bars & chains on em cause there aint enough power to turn the chain...LOL

CV, ropes is bitter, bitter cause those orange saws just cant perform like a Stihl........OOoooooo thats a naughty word to him, I hear Murph & AA run husky saws??? well just goes to show what kinda company a sucky saw I mean Husky saw owner keeps!!

Real tree men.............LOL, you been watching too many Murph videos!

Ok Ropes.............Just kidding! LOL


LXT..........


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## Iustinian (Dec 3, 2011)

a great benefit of running husky saws, is that your arms and shoulders will become huge because you will be pulling on the starter cord 50x's every time you want to start it. That's why you hear their saws running the entire time theyre climbing (they dont wanna shut them off for fear of it not starting again) hehehehehehe

you will also learn to become VERY patient as you deal with the fun of those outboard clutches. 

Husky, Stihl -- they both make good saws IMO, I just prefer Stihl. Got too much money invested to switch brands now hahaha. For me, its easier to stick with Stihl bc I know the prices, parts, and mechanics of them better. I've run both. If I had Huskys, I'd REALLY have to learn how to fix them hehehehehe. My buddy has that 372XP pictured above, and it burst into flames in my hands hahahahaha. Honestly it was a good saw, easy to run. I HATED Huskys climb saw, for several reasons -- I won the top of the line one in a rigging competition, and its long been sold to make room for the 200T


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## Livennine01 (Dec 4, 2011)

*Breaking into the biz*

Wow! much entertainment on this thread. Must say that CV received more good advise than what I would have thought at first considering that sawzall and electric chainsaw. Seriously, that's the equivalent of someone asking how to break into the trucking business with their new MOPED and RADIO FLYER WAGON. LOL!!! Good advice on here hope it all works out for you. FYI - alot of times the biggest a$$hole has the most to show someone. They've just become so frustrated with greenhorns that you have to earn their respect. Other times they can also just bee the biggest a hole - find out which one is which and learn from that guy!!!!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 4, 2011)

lxt said:


> Ropes...............typical Husky saw, they dont put the bars & chains on em cause there aint enough power to turn the chain...LOL
> 
> CV, ropes is bitter, bitter cause those orange saws just cant perform like a Stihl........OOoooooo thats a naughty word to him, I hear Murph & AA run husky saws??? well just goes to show what kinda company a sucky saw I mean Husky saw owner keeps!!
> 
> ...



Hmmmmm I'm so,so,so glad my husky's never performed in the manner stihl has for me:monkey: Out of five stihl products all new two are running and thats a fact I can't get with. Nope the ropes say you can keep dem


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## ropensaddle (Dec 4, 2011)

Livennine01 said:


> Wow! much entertainment on this thread. Must say that CV received more good advise than what I would have thought at first considering that sawzall and electric chainsaw. Seriously, that's the equivalent of someone asking how to break into the trucking business with their new MOPED and RADIO FLYER WAGON. LOL!!! Good advice on here hope it all works out for you. FYI - alot of times the biggest a$$hole has the most to show someone. They've just become so frustrated with greenhorns that you have to earn their respect. Other times they can also just bee the biggest a hole - find out which one is which and learn from that guy!!!!



Nah it will only teach you to be an #######. The one you can learn from don't play like he knows it all


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## chile verde (Dec 6, 2011)

Dan:
Why the hell would I want your goat, too? Believe what you want, I honestly don't care.



Livennine01 said:


> Wow! much entertainment on this thread. Must say that CV received more good advise than what I would have thought at first considering that sawzall and electric chainsaw. Seriously, that's the equivalent of someone asking how to break into the trucking business with their new MOPED and RADIO FLYER WAGON. LOL!!! Good advice on here hope it all works out for you. FYI - alot of times the biggest a$$hole has the most to show someone. They've just become so frustrated with greenhorns that you have to earn their respect. Other times they can also just bee the biggest a hole - find out which one is which and learn from that guy!!!!


Yeah, shouldna mentioned my gardening and construction tools, everyone assumes I sleep with them or something. The entire point in my joining is to help me safely learn the ropes, the gear, and apparently the culture too. Beyond that, whatever wrong assumptions folks wish to read into my OP is merely entertainment. 

As for ####ish behavior: I'd much rather catch it here and know what to anticipate in the field, than step into a turdpile on Day 1. A$$holes are doing me a favor...they certainly think so, at any rate! If for every 10 harsh remarks there's a gem from Iustinian, CNB or LXT, I figure I'm doing pretty good.

Husky vs Stihl:
I'm leaning towards Stihl, but given the choice btwn two equivalent saws, price and country of manufacture will be important considerations. I buy US products every chance I can get (getting harder every year).


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## nickfalvo (Dec 27, 2011)

*the whole thread is ridiculous....*

I'm new here - and don't expect anyone to care about what I have to say. 

But this thread has been, in my estimation, a prime example of arrogance meeting ignorance and not in any way entertaining.

The OP gave a lot of explanation which is perfectly fine - asking well thought questions - and being very open and unassuming. The response about people do not like to read long posts is akin to a parishioner saying he/she does not like long sermons. The length of the post means less than the content and aim of the post combined with execution.

I completely understand the idea of being a hard-ass to someone who is new. Being a Marine - we use that as a method of building skill sets in recruits and lower-ranking subordinates. What I do NOT understand and what makes me think twice about using this web site for information and interaction, is that IMMEDIATELY, instead of being helpful and constructive, the responses were choc-full of hate, ignorance and arrogance.

I also understand the OP defending himself, which in reading the entire thread - he managed to stay above the fray (for the most part). "Vets" throwing insults and ignorance around like candy at a holiday parade is sad. If this is how the forums are run here, then there should be a primer for new members about the arrogant voracity of some "vets" on the forums so that instead of getting flack from people they get support and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I sure didn't read anything in the FAQ about that.

Have a great day. I won't bother checking back to see the replies here so go ahead and message me if you must.

Erga Erga


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## 2treeornot2tree (Dec 28, 2011)

nickfalvo said:


> I'm new here - and don't expect anyone to care about what I have to say.
> 
> But this thread has been, in my estimation, a prime example of arrogance meeting ignorance and not in any way entertaining.
> 
> ...



Very sensitive fella are you? If you cant take it, then maybe your in the wrong field.


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