# cheap prices



## bombdude (Nov 6, 2007)

Just looked at some stumps this morning for a buddy of mine. He's got a large lot w/probably 100 stumps ranging 6" to over 50" (at least 7 or 8 this size). 

Being a buddy, I didn't commit to a figure, but told him I'd work for $75 an hour, & get as much done as he wanted to pay for. Also told him that at that rate, it's worked out to under $20/stump in the past, which I thought was reasonable.

He said that his dirt guy had a machine, & gave him a bid of 8 bucks a stump. 8 bucks!!?? Just yesterday I did a job at $20/stump. The guy was so pleased he paid me a $25 tip. Even told me that he got another bid at $30/stump. 

Good grief, 8 bucks?? What's the industry comin' to??

Sorry, had to vent


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## Husky137 (Nov 6, 2007)

Sounds like a quick and easy job for an excavator.


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## lxt (Nov 6, 2007)

nowadays cheap is the trend, fuel & natural gas goin up everyones wanting cheap not to mention the holidays. this time of year around where I live guys are doing trees for 1/2 what they should be done for & grinding any size stump-yes any size for $40-$75.00

the landscape hacks are topping & literally stubbing(hat racks) ornamental trees, just to make a buck!! hell the other day I bid a sugar maple to reduce the limbs going to the neighbors house (more like on the house) for $325.00 the guy calls me back just to tell me he got another bid for $100.00 less, the job would easily take 3-4hrs setup to driveaway. 

this is the time of year I dislike simply because of this cheap price trend, come spring people want the same cheap price rate, I dont play that game at anytime of year I know what Im worth & what I need to make, lately Ive been telling people I have a $200.00 minimum regardless of how small the job is unless Im working right beside them then It might be cheaper.

I start at $200.00 & it goes up from there, this seems to weed out the "I need a shrub trimmed" people!! To go bid, then return to do the job I figure you gotta set a price somewhere. $8 a stump WOW!!! funny how guys in the landscape biz charge $22 per versa-lok stone to set, but a stump machine can only get so much Uhh?

LXT.............


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## ROLLACOSTA (Nov 6, 2007)

seems to me prices are falling faster than the leaves this year


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## treesquirrel (Nov 8, 2007)

8-10 bucks per stump is not unusual around here if the job is 20 stumps or more and the average size is small to medium (6-15 inchers). Large stumps will always cost more but if part of the package I have found the stumpers who really know how to run their machines end up making 60-100 bucks per hour or more even at the 8-10 dollar price.

I'd never price a small job this way. It would have to be a buncha stumps.

But I agree that prices are falling like leaves.

With the current work crunch around here some tree companies are bidding 1200 dollar jobs at 800 or even less. Hard to get new work lined up with people out there working for free.


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## intheelements (Nov 9, 2007)

treesquirrel said:


> 8-10 bucks per stump is not unusual around here if the job is 20 stumps or more and the average size is small to medium (6-15 inchers). Large stumps will always cost more but if part of the package I have found the stumpers who really know how to run their machines end up making 60-100 bucks per hour or more even at the 8-10 dollar price.
> 
> I'd never price a small job this way. It would have to be a buncha stumps.
> 
> ...





No rudeness intended, but i'v been running a stump grinding business for three years now and there is no way that anyone is making 60 to 100 dollars an hour at 8 to 10 dollars per stump if they are grinding the stumps correctly. Also when all of the factors are figured in gas, travel time, truck, insurance, maintenance, maintenance time etc, at 8 dollars per stump they would be out of business pretty quick


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## treesquirrel (Nov 9, 2007)

intheelements said:


> No rudeness intended, but i'v been running a stump grinding business for three years now and there is no way that anyone is making 60 to 100 dollars an hour at 8 to 10 dollars per stump if they are grinding the stumps correctly. Also when all of the factors are figured in gas, travel time, truck, insurance, maintenance, maintenance time etc, at 8 dollars per stump they would be out of business pretty quick





I agree, this pricing baffles me also. I am merely passing on what I have observed here. Don't forget the cost of living factors when comparing Mass and Ga. I'm sure they are not the same.

Two weeks ago I had a gentleman grind 28 pine stumps from 10-16 diameter for that exact figure. He was in and out in a day. Ground them to 6 inches below grade. Rayco 60 horse grinder that chewed up a full stump in less than 5 minutes with this guy running it.

I amalso trying to figure how some of the businesses around here are making money charging 150 bucks for take downs per tree with clean up that should be costing 3-400 bucks if quoted based on risk, etc...


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## bombdude (Nov 11, 2007)

The guy he got the cheap bid from was a dirt guy first, & happened to have a machine. It also happened that his machine was broke down at the time he did the dirt work, so he didn't do the job at that time.

The customer hears about me during the mean time, & calls me. 

I gave him the pitch about the beer money grinders, which it sounds like this guy may fall into that caegory, but a cheap price seemed to be his main priority. Oh, well.


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## STLfirewood (Nov 12, 2007)

I do tree work on the side from my main job. I am insured I have a nice 12inch chipper and a 1-ton truck with box to catch the chips and a JD 260 skid steer. I have a free place to dump. A lot of people tell me my price is to cheap. But I have no payents on any equipment. So my overhead right now is really just fuel and some upkeep. I know that one day I will have to replace the chipper and truck so that should be figured in. When someone tell me that I'm to cheap I simply tell them that it's not my fault that they have new equipment, a bunch of employees, and payments on their stuff. I usually bid jobs so myself and my helper(retired dad) clear $350-500 a day depending on the amount of work. Some days we get quite a bit more (insurance jobs taking trees off house) and some days it's a little less. We do great clean up and I always make sure the customer is happy. 90% of our work comes from referals.

Scott


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## FARMBOSS (Nov 13, 2007)

*re*

I've seen people go so cheap in the winter to where they are making less than they would to get a job for a bigger outfit, I've gotten over it by now, I'm not hurtin for tree work, so I'd rather walk away from a job laughing than trying to compete to lose money, they'll learn


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## bombdude (Nov 13, 2007)

STLfirewood said:


> When someone tell me that I'm to cheap I simply tell them that it's not my fault that they have new equipment, a bunch of employees, and payments on their stuff. I usually bid jobs so myself and my helper(retired dad) clear $350-500 a day depending on the amount of work.
> 
> Scott



Not everyone is fortunate enough to be in your situation, but I look at the health of the industry itself. I don't claim to be the cheapest, but I do wanna be competitive. I know a guy that has underbid most grinders around here at $15/stump b/c he has an old clunker grinder that costs him nothing to own. Looks like he's gotta adjust with this new guy bidding $8.

Guys like that keep the industry from progressing w/the ever rising costs of doing business. I don't know any millionaire stump grinders out there, but nobody's runnin' a charity service either. 

Let's keep the industry healthy while providing good service at fair (not grossly cheap) prices. 

BTW, I'd be happy to clear $350-500/day after expenses. Definitely not "cheap" to me.


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## STLfirewood (Nov 13, 2007)

bombdude said:


> BTW, I'd be happy to clear $350-500/day after expenses. Definitely not "cheap" to me.




That is what I kind of meant. I don't think I am working to cheap. I can definatley work cheaper then the guy who has payroll and big truck payments to make. I provide what I think is great service for people. I have never had a customer complain about a job I have done. I try and stay away from trimming. I know I'm not good at it. I won't top a tree and I will tell them that. When I tell them that I don't have the skills to do what they want almost all thank me for being honest. I refer them to a person that does. If they need tree work again they still call me because I was honest about my skills. A lot of the people I work for have a ton of money. I had one person tell me they were very happy that I didn't try to stick it to them because of where they lived. I had a woman call me today and tell me she had a couple branches down by her house. I drove by and looked real quick. There were six branches down. Biggest was 4 inches and about 15ft. I told her I would have my truck out on friday and I would grab them. That it would be $75. She said really that's cheap. I'll send you a $125. If I'm there more then 10 minutes something is wrong. I have done work for her the last few years. She doesn't even get back up bids. She takes what I tell her and is happy. I have 4-5 referals from her. I don't think I work to cheap I just think I have low overhead.

Scott


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## tree md (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm a small service with low overhead as well. $350-$500 doesn't sound too bad if your grinding stumps, doing light tree work and mostly clean up. We have like a work release rehab program for guys who get into trouble with the law around here. They are a faith based private organization that rehabs these guys and hires them out to local businesses and individuals. Kind of like a labor pool. They also have a moving business and a tree service. They charge $750 a day for a 5 man tree crew. They are pretty much hacks that spike everything they climb and use inexperienced hands under an apprenticeship type program. 

We make an average of probably $1000 a day for a 3 to 4 man crew, depending on how many I need for the day. I advertise a quality service and employ only English speaking workers. We've got Discount Tree Service, Affordable Tree Service and Bob's Tree Service (who offers 30% off before he even shows up at your door according to his ads and signs) around here. It kind of irks me a little to see guys out working off a ladder, not even owning a stitch of climbing gear, and no insurance out doing jobs for peanuts but what are you going to do. I often have to remind myself that I am not targeting the "discount" market. I guess I'm not doing too bad, I'm still booked two weeks out and that's better than I usually do during the Holidays. I say let Discount and Affordable Tree get bogged down in the "discount" market. I'm trying to set my sights a little higher than that.


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## lxt (Nov 28, 2007)

tree md, funny the names of the companies you mention are almost identical to some in my area, affordable brothers tree serv., bills tree serv, frenchys tree serv., etc... all these guys have ads saying we are the cheapest, will match or beat anyones price, or the all famous gauranteed lowest pricing!!

Like you say many have lil to no exp. doing tree work, their work is awfull and they are non-insured, hard to compete unless you fight fire with fire!! I think ill probably move on to another career before lowering myself to that level!!

LXT.........


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## extremewoodwork (Nov 28, 2007)

What kills me are the guys that advertise to be certified arborist with no cert # and are licenced and insured. I have never heard of a license to take down trees and car insurance doesnt count for ins. These are the same guys that do dirt cheap work, they get a saw and a truck and then they are a tree company. If they 1/3 the cost of other quotes then I say kick them off your lawn. These are the guys who are making it hard for the real tree companies to make a living because they claim to be able to do the same thing for cheaper.


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## bombdude (Nov 29, 2007)

I agree totally, xtreme. All I do is grind stumps. I don't climb or do any tree work. In La., there is no reqiurement to be licensed just to do stumps. However, I am fully insured, & I operate as a legit business.


But I'd bet that the $8/stump guy has never even thought about being insured. However, people jump on the lower price, & never think that they'll have issues down the road. It's the Wal-Mart mentality, I guess.


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## mattfr12 (Nov 29, 2007)

hah 8 dollars a stump i wouldnt even start my machine for less than 50$


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## treesquirrel (Nov 29, 2007)

bombdude said:


> It's the Wal-Mart mentality, I guess.



It is indeed sir, it is indeed.


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 30, 2007)

mattfr12 said:


> hah 8 dollars a stump i wouldnt even start my machine for less than 50$



We should sub out all our stumps to these $8/stump guys. 

I did two today (10" maple and 16" cherry) in the courtyard of an office building downtown. Just under 4 hours to do the job. That's about 3/4 hour to grind and the rest finding a parking spot, setting up a safe work site (cones, signs, plywood), hauling the mulch and cleanup. Now I find out, someone else would have done this for $16.


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## treepres1 (Dec 1, 2007)

*stump grinder*

we have a 100 dollar min. to send a grinder out within a 15-mile area and the stump has to be 26 inches or less if theres more stumps its 35dollars a foot:greenchainsaw:


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## treepres1 (Dec 1, 2007)

*stump grinder*

we have a 100 dollar min. to send a grinder out within a 15-mile area and the stump has to be 26 inches or less if theres more stumps its 35dollars a foot:i own a 7500 tow behind 7015 track and a 2700;4 all 2006 models.greenchainsaw:


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## tree md (Dec 1, 2007)

We have a $150 minimum for stumps...


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## bombdude (Dec 1, 2007)

I charge a $100 minimum per job. Usually bid at $2/linear inch up to 48". $3/inch above 48" 

Looked at a multi stump job (about 70) yesterday. About 20 in the 24-30" range. Several that need saw cuts. The rest are around 6-10". I bid $17/stump cuz I'm starting to feel the pinch. Never bid lower than $20 before. Says he'll get back to me. If he gets the # to the $8 guy, I guess we're screwed again.


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## treesquirrel (Dec 1, 2007)

I have found that 50.00 is the minimum around here unless it is a long drive for the service.

The 8-10 buck deal among the grinders I am aware of is ONLY for jobs of 10 20 30 stumps and also depends on average size.

There is one fella here with a 100HP grinder which will pretty much go thru a 15 incher or smaller in a few sweeps. About 5 minutes once the grinder is in position.

Also keep in mind I cut all stumps as close to the ground as possible for my stumpers.


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## Caring Arborist (Dec 4, 2007)

*Stumped on price*

I ask my stump grinding people to go at least 10 - 12 inches below grade, and do a thorough cleanup. The guy at 8 bucks isn't going to grind wide, isn't going much below 3 inches and the cleanup......well. Your buddy needs to see how much it costs to do the work and will naturally deduce that he's getting taken by the beer money guy. What separates you from those guys are your values, integrity, and confidence that a client will normally sense. We thoroughly educate clients before the work, offer clients certificates of insurance before the job, and offer to have them check your work after, in effect guaranteeing their happiness with the job. 
If they still don't get it they aren't your type of client. We don't get all our quotes, and don't expect to.


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## lxt (Dec 4, 2007)

In my area the customer will haggle over $10.00 even when they know your the better contractor, I hear it all the time its only $10!!!!

just yesterday Monday 12-3, windy day kinda cold!! I get a call that a limb fell off a cherry tree Lady wants tree down, I give her a bid for $500.00 she wants to know being it is so close to X-Mas if I can give her a discount? other bids she got were above mine, only reason I can do it for less is because I can get the tow behind to it!!!

I told her Maam Im already the cheapest bid what more do you want? I want a X-mas discount or I`ll leave the tree stand!!!!

Now this might not of been right by me but I told her I would return wearing an apron with a smiley face, laughed & walked away!!! she got the point!!!

funny today tues 12-4 she calls & says I got the job, I almost dont even want to do it just for principle sake, But I will!!!!

LXT...............


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## Caring Arborist (Dec 4, 2007)

*cheap*

You GO lxt!!!


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## Mitchell (Dec 4, 2007)

*said before*



Caring Arborist said:


> I ask my stump grinding people to go at least 10 - 12 inches below grade, and do a thorough cleanup. The guy at 8 bucks isn't going to grind wide, isn't going much below 3 inches and the cleanup......well. Your buddy needs to see how much it costs to do the work and will naturally deduce that he's getting taken by the beer money guy. What separates you from those guys are your values, integrity, and confidence that a client will normally sense. We thoroughly educate clients before the work, offer clients certificates of insurance before the job, and offer to have them check your work after, in effect guaranteeing their happiness with the job.
> If they still don't get it they aren't your type of client. We don't get all our quotes, and don't expect to.



I agree caring! However, In my limited experience, 4 out of 5 times I found price trumps all else. Human nature I suppose, after all, are not the richest folks in the world the walmart gang. *THE HIGH COST OF LOW PRICES*. 

I personally went through an "at this price how can I go wrong" made in China tool buying phase. The life time of hassles warranty finds me now only buying North American, European, or Japanese products. I think most folks have to get burn't a couple times with the "low bid, low quality, cost you more in the long run" scenarios.


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## John464 (Dec 4, 2007)

lxt said:


> other bids she got were above mine, only reason I can do it for less is because I can get the tow behind to it!!!
> 
> .




know your competition. if you are the only one in the area w/ a lift and others cant get their bucket truck to the tree and will have to climb= taking much longer to do the job. why be the cheapest price? capitalize on your investments. make more money per hour than the others because of your wise equipment purchases


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## lxt (Dec 5, 2007)

John I agree, however in my area cheap seems to be the standard some of those bids were from companies I know that would have to climb & they came in $100.00 higher!! I found this out after I bid!! where Im at you just cant mark up because of equipment advantages, Thats why I dont have a spider!! I would love one but in my area I just couldnt do it, Id be bankrupt.

Heres my area`s scenario to shed a lil light, I can access jobs with the towable while others would have to climb & there`s still instances where I get underbid, How? I dont know. some of the guys in my area think if they make $500-$700 a week their doing good! I know I Know, but its my area!!

The only thing that seperates me from my competition is my experience & being faster at getting the job done, the problem with this is IM GETTING OLDER & being faster is not gonna be my strong point for long!! beleive me Im planning on how to combat this!!

If you train someone it slows you down but I know I have to sooner or later, where to find someone is the task!! people here the majority anyway care very little about your credentials or Exp. its the low price that wins!!

I read some posts where guys are making $1000-$2000 a day, that must be nice!! I employ 3 guys other than myself & if my business makes $3000.00 a week thats Darn good!!!! the kicker is I pay my men good, treat them right, others employees would love to work for me, my biz is one of the more profitable & reputable biz`s in the area & the aforementioned is whats taking its toll on tree companies in my area!!

believe me I would get a spider in a heartbeat "if" my area was economically better. I just keep marching & try to be professional!!

take care be safe

LXT...........


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## John464 (Dec 6, 2007)

lxt I can respect what you are saying. sometimes we have people like that over here too. I hate those customers that think just because we have the equipment/experience to blow out a job much faster than anyone else we should still make about the same for our time as the other co.


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## urbanlt (Dec 21, 2007)

*Your Fired*



STLfirewood said:


> I do tree work on the side from my main job. I am insured I have a nice 12inch chipper and a 1-ton truck with box to catch the chips and a JD 260 skid steer. I have a free place to dump. A lot of people tell me my price is to cheap. But I have no payents on any equipment. So my overhead right now is really just fuel and some upkeep. I know that one day I will have to replace the chipper and truck so that should be figured in. When someone tell me that I'm to cheap I simply tell them that it's not my fault that they have new equipment, a bunch of employees, and payments on their stuff. I usually bid jobs so myself and my helper(retired dad) clear $350-500 a day depending on the amount of work. Some days we get quite a bit more (insurance jobs taking trees off house) and some days it's a little less. We do great clean up and I always make sure the customer is happy. 90% of our work comes from referals.
> 
> Scott



If I was your employer I would fire you straight away becuase when you get hurt working on the weekend and can't work or pay your bills you are going to say you got hurt at work and put it on my workmens comp and drive up my rates so that I can't pay the employees who come to work rested and give 100% to their jobs what they really deserve.


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## treeman82 (Dec 21, 2007)

There are 2 or 3 jobs right now that are sticking out in my mind. 

Down the road from me is a bunch of red maples and now a big elm that the customer wants to take down in order to make room for a pool down the road. I told them $6,000 for the trees... the elm is gonna be more, and then another $1,000 for the stumps... Maybe a little over a half day with an RG50. They got another price... per day rate for taking down the trees. $1,500 per day for a crew with a truck and chipper... "insured" chips and wood stay.. but the crew is made up of 7 people. They're claiming to have the job done in 2 or 3 days. HOW can anybody work for so little?

My nextdoor neighbor had 20? white pines taken down... everything went and the stumps were ground out. I bid the job for the prior owner... same thing was $4,500 a few years ago per my bid. Some lowlife came in and did them for $3,000. 

There was another job I looked at this fall, but I never even bothered to give a price for it. When I arrived to give the estimate somebody else was just giving theirs. Overheard it too. 4 man crew, bucket truck, big chipper, 2 chip trucks... $1,500 per day. Everything had to go too... LOTS of chips at that job as well.

How can people get by working for those prices with the cost of fuel, insurance, LABOR, and everything else?


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## STLfirewood (Dec 21, 2007)

urbanlt said:


> If I was your employer I would fire you straight away becuase when you get hurt working on the weekend and can't work or pay your bills you are going to say you got hurt at work and put it on my workmens comp and drive up my rates so that I can't pay the employees who come to work rested and give 100% to their jobs what they really deserve.




If this happened to you then I'm sorry. To assume and imply that I would steal from my employer and commit insurance fraud is dead wrong of you. I have a lot more integrity then that. To assume that I don't give 100% on my daily job is wrong of you also. Like I said if this happened to you then sorry. But DO NOT imply I am a con like that. 

Thanks Scott


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## treeman82 (Dec 23, 2007)

Ok... I'm not sure what to call this... but I spoke with somebody today. I've referred this guy to others because he will work for next to nothing with his equipment. I tell them flat out he has little to no insurance, but his prices can't be beat. Well he bid on one of the jobs I listed in an above post... undercut the guy for $1,500 per day with a bucket, big chipper, and 4 men. Didn't get the job. HE was underbid somehow. I don't understand that at all.

Now another job he had looked at, he was underbid there too... however I knew he would be on that one. I mean when you're bidding a pine removal and tack on almost $2,000 for the dumpsters... you're not going to win the bid. Not when anyone else can just load up their trucks, and go about 35? min up the road to dump for about $400 TOPS.


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