# Crazy Idea?



## Mac (Dec 26, 2006)

I've got 200 Hawthorn (Mayhaw) seedlings to raise for rootstock for grafting in '08. They are quite drought sensitive and I'm flirting with idea of growing them on my pond on an old floating dock. I can fill dock's plastic drums until containerized plants would stand in an inch of water and rest of the soil would be moistened via capillary action. Has anyone heard of doing this?
Thanks, 
Mac


----------



## ShoerFast (Dec 26, 2006)

Mac

Welcome to the site!

If I may, I don't know if I would recognize your plants if I ran them over, but you may be on to something, not that I would experiment with the whole shooting match, I would try just 195 of them, but that's me. 

If the roots don't have a problem with molds? or become soft and rot, it might work? Most plants need a little air in the soil.


----------



## Tree Machine (Dec 30, 2006)

Most plants are more sensitive to overwatering than underwatering. The reason is one of evolution. Over millions of years, trees have evolved and learned to thrive in certain ecological niches, as have the soil fungi and other natural soil biota that have existed along with them.

For your trees, and the tree's roots to thrive, the soil condition must also thrive. Some trees have found their niche in wet areas- cypress, sycamore, cottonwood, but not hawthorne. Hawthorne doesn't thrive with 'wet feet'. It has evolved much as most other trees; it rains, the soil soaks, the soil drains and moisture diminishes until another rain.

Your idea is not 'crazy'. People once thought hydroponics was crazy but when they got clear on nutrient concentration and that roots require oxygen, they found you are able to submerge the roots totally in solution, as long as you have air bubbles constantly percolating up through. 

Yours is sort of a hybrid idea cross between soil cultivation and hydroponics. Theoretically, your idea is very ingenius but a lot of things sound good in theory, but flop in the real world. Essentially, you're considering growing your trees in mud.

I can't say whether or not this will work, but I would treat it like gambling; don't risk more than you can afford to lose.

And definitely, Welcome to the site!


----------



## arboralliance (Dec 31, 2006)

*Oxygen...*

Rain and watering pulls air and therefore oxygen down with it into the soil, not sure how you might activate oxygen in the capiliarised soil considering hydroponics works without soil for that very reason...

Tree Machine has the direction with simulating a giant hydroponics "bath" as your answer to problems there...


----------



## Sprig (Dec 31, 2006)

Hiya and welcome! Yup u r crazy! If these are the devilishly spikey variety of hawthorns we get here and bring so much joy to tree removal people then there is only one good place to raise them, off da end of the dock. I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone in their right minds (barring a 'bad neighbor' fence) would want these things on their property. Are there any redeeming qualities to speak of? I mean other than they are green an' all.
Just curious.



Serge


----------



## Tree Machine (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm afraid that normal rain would turn your planting pots into soupy mud baths, that is if they were normal pots. Your system _could_ work if the pots were tall enough that the water could drain down to the 1" level and the roots would stay well enough away, but then you have containers that could tip over in the wind. Also, there would be a lot of soil and that means heavy planters. Dirt is heavy. Wet dirt is really heavy.

One advantage I see to growing containerized plants on floating docks is that you have no shade. Clear, unobstructed sun when the sun is out. But, at the same time you probably have a clear area on land that could provide the same.

What you're trying to achieve really sounds like a greenhouse sort of thing, but I'm certain you already know that. Your question is part of your exploration into how you can make productive use of these otherwise unused floating docks. Have you explored aquaculture? Tilapia? Freshwater shrimp? Catfish? The docks would become feeding platforms, OK, that's off-topic.

Hey, here's a couple ideas that WILL work that are related to your original question of not allowing the drought-sensitive trees to dry out. Now, these are not original ideas in any way. Watering systems for plants have been around since the beginning of time. You're exploring systems that will work out on the floating docks. We can assume no electricity, or you would just install a pump and tubing, conventional. We can also assume you would like this to be a 'no babysit' system (self-watering).

Hydration crystals would be one option, synthetic chunks of an inert substance, mixed with the soil and when watered, they swell with water, hold the water and then release the moisture into the soil at a rate similar to the rate at which water is being removed from the soil (evaporation or transpirational uptake by the trees). They're termed crystals, but they're not really crystals, they just sort of have that appearance in their dry state. Once fully hydrated they look more like chunks of clear jello. The wetted crystals keep the soil in a sort of equilibrium, where the moisture content of the crystals and the surrounding soil remain more or less the same. As the soil dries, the crystals release water to bring the moisture of the soil back up. If both the crystals and the soil eventually dry out, your roots can dehydrate and the trees die. If it rains, or you water the soil, the crystals pull water from the saturated soil and re-swell. This system requires some babysitting, but a lot less than soil alone.

Another viable floating dock system, similar in concept to your cappillary action idea is 'wicking'. To fully get this concept, take a strip of paper towel. Hang it so only the very bottom is submerged in water. watch what happens, the water spontaneously works it's way up the strip, against the force of gravity, until it reaches the top. The strip will maintain more or less the same level of moisture, as long as there is part of the strip in contact with water. Cotton works well, you can tear up strips of old cotton bedsheets, much more durable than paper towelling. You could even use strips of old bath towels. If the soil surrounding the moist strip is dryer than the strip, moisture will move spontaneously into the drier zone and more moisture will be drawn up the strip. If it rains and the soil saturates, wicking action stops.

When it comes time to permanently move the pots, or transplant, just cut off the strip at the bottom level of the container. The tree will do OK with the strip remnant in there and it will eventually decompose. Your 200 trees could each have their own wick strip, but it doesn't take a pond to set up a system like this. 

Possibly hybridize the sytems. Wicks and hydration crystals. Overkill, for sure, but the moisture will be constant and consistent.

Will this work? Evolution says soak, drain, certain degree of moisture diminishing until the next soak. A perpetual moisture system should be the same, except for the soak end and the drought end.

My suggestion is consult someone who has actually done your projected system with your particular specie, otherwise you're customizing a particular system and seeing how it will work, learning based on direct experience.

Here's a link to those crystals. This companies call them Garden Gel and they talk a bit about their use in trees.


----------



## Mac (Dec 31, 2006)

To shed a bit of enlightenment.
http://www.mayhaw.org/

They are tolerant of wet soils, but I would be using hort gravel instead of sand in my bark/peat planting medium to allow more air to roots. I was hoping the medium would do the wicking for me, with only the drains on containers being immersed and I would think rain water would still drain from containers. 
This idea arises from a failed irrigation timer which cost me seedlings and some newly grafted stock last year (I work away also 5-6 weeks). I figured surely someone smarter than this dumb farmer would have tried it before. I'm going to try anyhow and just keep an eye out for problems. I can always move them back to dry land and be at mercy of a timer. 
Mac


----------



## woodchux (Dec 31, 2006)

If you use something like zeolite and aireate the pond you might be ok. You will of coarse have to monitor ph and nutrient levels very closely.


----------



## Tree Machine (Jan 1, 2007)

> To shed a bit of enlightenment.
> http://www.mayhaw.org/


Ahhh. This hawthorne is a horse of a different color. I think evolution is on your side for this particular project.


----------

