# Masterminded 362c 87 octane vs 94



## KG441c (Aug 7, 2014)

87 octane was used and 94 both mixed with Belray H1R @ 32:1. Rpm in cut avg. 11000 and 87 octane cuts avg. 10.5 sec and 94 avg. 9.5 sec. if I counted right? Oregon square chisel chain


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## cgraham1 (Aug 7, 2014)

opcorn:


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## Mastermind (Aug 7, 2014)

The saw sounds fast......

The wood is harder than woodpecker lips though.


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## KG441c (Aug 7, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The saw sounds fast......
> 
> The wood is harder than woodpecker lips though.


Lmao!!!!! Randy that wood is very hard and dry. A can't from my local sawmill. That 362 is a keeper and getting stronger!!! Thanks for a screamer!!


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## Ron660 (Aug 7, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 87 octane was used and 94 both mixed with Belray H1R @ 32:1. Rpm in cut avg. 11000 and 87 octane cuts avg. 10.5 sec and 94 avg. 9.5 sec. if I counted right? Oregon square chisel chain



Good videos. I also counted the 94 slightly faster. That ported 362 looked fast! Add a couple more cants and I'll bring down my ported 660.


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## Ron660 (Aug 7, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 87 octane was used and 94 both mixed with Belray H1R @ 32:1. Rpm in cut avg. 11000 and 87 octane cuts avg. 10.5 sec and 94 avg. 9.5 sec. if I counted right? Oregon square chisel chain



I'd like to see a full comp chain in those cants to compare to that square chisel.


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## Mastermind (Aug 7, 2014)

You really need fresh cut, knot free poplar or pine to get consistent cut times. That wood will likely be all over the place in timed cuts.


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## KG441c (Aug 7, 2014)

The square chisel to me on the 16" 026 didn't cut well. I think full comp would be better but the square does good on the 362c . Extra bananas in the 362c


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## Mastermind (Aug 7, 2014)

MS362XB.......


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## KG441c (Aug 7, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> MS362XB.......


Lmao!! There it is! Masterminded XB model!!


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## Mastermind (Aug 7, 2014)

MM362XB?


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## KG441c (Aug 7, 2014)

Master minded 362 extra bananas model. Stihl should get onboard!!


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## bryanr2 (Aug 7, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Master minded 362 extra bananas model. Stihl should get onboard!!




I like it.....

This seems fitting to post in a "Mastermind" topic thread. If you can get past the first 15 seconds.... it's hilarious.


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## watsonr (Aug 7, 2014)

Saw looks good and that bar tops it off!


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## 2dogs (Aug 8, 2014)

Mr Rogers autotuned. Still sucks


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## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

Fred Rogers is a hero.........at least in my mind. Selfless service is the term that applies I feel. 

From Wikipedia. 

Rogers received the Presidential Medal of Freedom, some forty honorary degrees,[4] and a Peabody Award. He was inducted into the Television Hall of Fame, was recognized by two Congressional resolutions, and was ranked No. 35 among TV Guide's Fifty Greatest TV Stars of All Time.[5] Several buildings and artworks in Pennsylvania are dedicated to his memory, and the Smithsonian Institution displays one of his trademark sweaters as a "Treasure of American History".


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## mt.stalker (Aug 8, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Fred Rogers is a hero.........at least in my mind. Selfless service is the term that applies I feel.
> 
> From Wikipedia.
> 
> Rogers received the Presidential Medal of Freedom, some forty honorary degrees,[4] and a Peabody Award. He was inducted into the Television Hall of Fame, was recognized by two Congressional resolutions, and was ranked No. 35 among TV Guide's Fifty Greatest TV Stars of All Time.[5] Several buildings and artworks in Pennsylvania are dedicated to his memory, and the Smithsonian Institution displays one of his trademark sweaters as a "Treasure of American History".


Lol , did you ever see the blooper reel of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood ??? After filming one episode , Fred thought the camera was off , and he stated 
" There , that ought to keep the little bastards happy ". I was pizzing myself when i saw that


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## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

I wonder if he ran Husky or Stihl


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## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

I think he was a Dolly guy.


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## bryanr2 (Aug 8, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 87 octane was used and 94 both mixed with Belray H1R @ 32:1. Rpm in cut avg. 11000 and 87 octane cuts avg. 10.5 sec and 94 avg. 9.5 sec. if I counted right? Oregon square chisel chain




Wish I had a shady place to play with saws, but a side effect of CAD and Ported Saws is "lack of flora" where trees are senselessly harvested for their "heat making" properties. When i bought my 1 acre lot, it was the most shaded property in the neighborhood. 40 trees later.... it's hot all summer. Cant stand to run a saw until Oct. Ive got 25-30 good sized oak tree trunks to cut up this fall. Cant wait.


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## sunfish (Aug 8, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Wish I had a shady place to play with saws, but a side effect of CAD and Ported Saws is "lack of flora" where trees are senselessly harvested for their "heat making" properties. When i bought my 1 acre lot, it was the most shaded property in the neighborhood. 40 trees later.... it's hot all summer. Cant stand to run a saw until Oct. Ive got 25-30 good sized oak tree trunks to cut up this fall. Cant wait.


I never cut a good shade tree! Oct through May is when I do all my cuttin...


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## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

Just cut the neighbors trees when their away!! lol


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## Mastermind (Aug 8, 2014)

Plant some nice shade trees Steven.....you'd be surprised how fast they grow.


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## redfin (Aug 8, 2014)

I was just thinking the same thing Steven. I have full mature oaks, walnuts, hickory where we are now. But we are building and where we chose to set the house is in part of an old horse pasture. I was wondering what shade trees we should plant that will grow fastest in our area.


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## KG441c (Aug 8, 2014)

Think Ill do a full comp chain vs square chisel test


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## bryanr2 (Aug 8, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Plant some nice shade trees Steven.....you'd be surprised how fast they grow.



yeah I reckon. Dont plan to live here too much longer though. Out grew the house (bought it 11 years ago when I left home) need more room for Kari's clothes and shoes. And the kids. It's rediculous how much clothing a 4 & 5 year old girl needs.


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## cgraham1 (Aug 8, 2014)

redfin said:


> I was just thinking the same thing Steven. I have full mature oaks, walnuts, hickory where we are now. But we are building and where we chose to set the house is in part of an old horse pasture. I was wondering what shade trees we should plant that will grow fastest in our area.


http://www.fast-growing-trees.com/FastestTrees.htm


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## redfin (Aug 8, 2014)

Hey thanks Clint.


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## MustangMike (Aug 9, 2014)

My bet is on square file, with any saw 60 cc & up, especially if it is ported!

Hey, I told you that saw would get stronger w/break in. Now, was it really faster w/hi octane, or was it just continuing to break in ........


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## Mastermind (Aug 9, 2014)

I'd bet you can cut ten cookies off of that hard dry wood, and no two will be the same.


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> My bet is on square file, with any saw 60 cc & up, especially if it is ported!
> 
> Hey, I told you that saw would get stronger w/break in. Now, was it really faster w/hi octane, or was it just continuing to break in ........[/
> It seemed consistently faster by 1 sec with the 94 with the 362 but I did the same test with my 026 and it made absolutely 0 difference.


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## Mastermind (Aug 9, 2014)

You really think the 94 makes a difference Keith?


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

Im not sure but if counting the times in the video it seemed every cut was alil faster but I believe with operator error, irregularities in the wood will make inconsistent test results. Dyno the way to go imo


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## Mastermind (Aug 9, 2014)

Well your 461 is done.......and will be shipped to Chad this coming week. Hopefully we can get some answers then. I'm all ears when it comes to learning new stuff.


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

Im still keen on the idea of the shorter stroke and lower octane being a more complete combustion process . Especially after seeing the 2 " vs 3" plume of unburned fuel


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Well your 461 is done.......and will be shipped to Chad this coming week. Hopefully we can get some answers then. I'm all ears when it comes to learning new stuff.


Im all ears in this performance learning process. Im just a wet behind the ears student and I listen to people who have earned and payed their dues! Thats why I probably drive u crazy with the PMs when I dont know what tha heck Im talkin about or doin!!!! Lol


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## Mad Professor (Aug 9, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 87 octane was used and 94 both mixed with Belray H1R @ 32:1. Rpm in cut avg. 11000 and 87 octane cuts avg. 10.5 sec and 94 avg. 9.5 sec. if I counted right? Oregon square chisel chain




What was saw pulling for compression , and why 32:1 mix?.

I have used Belray in dirt bikes but have only used Golden Spectro at 50:1 even when milling in my saws. No oil failures in 40 years. I did loose a saw to dry gas added by a worker, and recently my old reliable USA built motors fell to ethanol snot in the carbs.


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

12:8 compression ratio and the 32to1 gives better protection with ported saws plus better ring seal. I can say from my saws running H1r at 32:1 when they are torn down have a very nice oily film coated on everything with little carbon buildup at all.


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## mp5n (Aug 9, 2014)

Randy,

That saw sounds really nice. A thought though. Try taking a few timed cuts holding the saw with the bar parallel to the ground. When you tilt the saw back and forth you’re introducing a lot of variability.


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

mp5n said:


> Randy,
> 
> That saw sounds really nice. A thought though. Try taking a few timed cuts holding the saw with the bar parallel to the ground. When you tilt the saw back and forth you’re introducing a lot of variability.


Ya figured that out watching the videos over and thanks for the tip


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## Mad Professor (Aug 9, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 12:8 compression ratio and the 32to1 gives better protection with ported saws plus better ring seal. I can say from my saws running H1r at 32:1 when they are torn down have a very nice oily film coated on everything with little carbon buildup at all.




Hmmm 12:8 ? That would be 1.5? Or do you mean 12.8 to 1?

I cannot agree with your statement concerning "protection" nor "ring seal", using 32 parts of fuel to ONE part oil.

I have raced dirt bikes and ran saws > 40 years, no oil problems at 50 parts fuel and one part oil, using Golden Spectro. And that includes my chainsaw miil using 066 and 056 heads. 

P.S. I still have a 69 350 chevy LT1 block with shaved deck and heads. It might be 12.8 : 1 comp? About 210 average on the 8 for psi cranking cold.


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> Hmmm 12:8 ? That would be 1.5? Or do you mean 12.8 to 1?
> 
> I cannot agree with your statement concerning "protection" nor "ring seal", using 32 parts of fuel to ONE part oil.
> 
> ...


You will start an oil war with the 50 or 32to1 debate but I can tell you now that on this site 9/10 of porters are gonna tell u they run 32to1. Some rules of cars and dirtbikes dont apply to saws but run what u like if it works for u but u r in the wrong place here on as to argue 32to1 not being beneficial. Yes 189 psi compression.


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## chadihman (Aug 9, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Think Ill do a full comp chain vs square chisel test


I like tests!


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## hseII (Aug 9, 2014)

Da Monkey tolds me 40:1 if using Stihl or Hooskee oil.( no Hooskee here)

Anything non OEM, 32:1.

He Ought To Know.


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## Mad Professor (Aug 9, 2014)

KG441c said:


> You will start an oil war with the 50 or 32to1 debate but I can tell you now that on this site 9/10 of porters are gonna tell u they run 32to1. Some rules of cars and dirtbikes dont apply to saws but run what u like if it works for u but u r in the wrong place here on as to argue 32to1 not being beneficial. Yes 189 psi compression.




To each his own. I kept the same oil when they went to MTBE mixed fuel but would not use that gas. When E10 came I went to 100LL AV using the same oil. That required a retune on some equipment. I can store that mix much more > 1 year.

I see no need for 32:1 fuel, and I mill using chainsaws.

I grew up with 16:1 for boats, saws, and bikes. Sometimes just non-detergent 30W. I have moved forward to what works for me. Again, bikes, saws, and no oil related issues,


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 9, 2014)

Most see no need for AV gas.....to each their own


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## KG441c (Aug 9, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> To each his own. I kept the same oil when they went to MTBE mixed fuel but would not use that gas. When E10 came I went to 100LL AV using the same oil. That required a retune on some equipment. I can store that mix much more > 1 year.
> 
> I see no need for 32:1 fuel, and I mill using chainsaws.
> 
> I grew up with 16:1 for boats, saws, and bikes. Sometimes just non-detergent 30W. I have moved forward to what works for me. Again, bikes, saws, and no oil related issues,


I'm just a nobody trying to learn here. Your the professor


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## Mad Professor (Aug 9, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Most see no need for AV gas.....to each their own



No E10 free stations here. E10 rots carbs/rubber and leaves snotty crap in 2 and 4 strokes.

I have > 50 year old tractors that never had the carb apart before E10. The same with my tillers and other equipment. E10 SUCKS the COB!!!!

E10 leaves something I would describe as SNOT residue. Ethanol also attracts moisture and reacts with both aluminum and magnesium, that would be most carburator bodies. When E10 absorbs enough water it makes a two phase water ethanol /hydrocarbon mix.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 9, 2014)

I use 91 octane E free gas i get from a marina 10 minutes from home


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## Mad Professor (Aug 9, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I use 91 octane E free gas i get from a marina 10 minutes from home


Wish I could


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## MustangMike (Aug 9, 2014)

Keith, the 362 may have benefited more because it has higher compression, or M-Tronic, or both. Perhaps M-Tronic adjusts to the engines reaction to the octane.


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## RiverRat2 (Aug 9, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> You really think the 94 makes a difference Keith?


Im old school when it comes to that, what I have always been told coming up through the ranks building motors,,, If you built some compression (approaching the 200 PSI range) I think you are just asking for detonation especially loaded/laboring in the cut,,, compression alone doesn't make more RPM,,, Just makes it accelerate harder,,,,


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## MustangMike (Aug 10, 2014)

Octane, compression, and valve (or port) timing all have to be in sync. You only get pre-detonation if your octane is not high enough for the motor. The richer oil mix he uses will also effectively increase octane.


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## MustangMike (Aug 10, 2014)

You are right that compression does not increase RPMs, but it does provide more power in each power stroke (the more you compress the air fuel mixture, the more power it will produce, all other things remaining the same and not encountering pre-detonation).


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## RiverRat2 (Aug 10, 2014)

Agree,,, Exactly,,,, that's why the late model stihl saws are designed to run on 89 octane,,, about 170ish compression can get by on it,,,, FWIW,,, any of my modded saws that have some compression will never see 87 octane.... Just sayin


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## mdavlee (Aug 10, 2014)

I've run a 288 with 230 lbs of compression on 87 milling in 95 degree weather with no problems and no detonation on the piston top. I'm in the boat of octane for saws don't matter. Run whatever makes you feel good.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

On the 362c with 189psi(12.8to1), the chart calls for 93 to 94 octane. The test Ronnie and myself did was just for fun and proved nothing at all. When people like Randy, Mdavlee, and Brad are all using lower octanes? Im pretty sure we are wasting our time and we surely arent trying to disprove anyones theory here but only having alil fun! I wanna do the test also with square vs full comp which Ive seen the test already, but If I can learn to file and see even 20 to 30% increase in cut time with square thats what I will run. This is a hobby for me and the testing is simply for fun. Im in no way trying to prove how dumb,(shows already) ,or smart I am by being on this site. Lots of fine people here that simply give unbiased information and are 
very helpful and thank all of u who do. Ive learned alot and will continue to as the hobby is very interesting and satisfying


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## redfin (Aug 10, 2014)

Wow 230lbs. Did that saw have a two piece top Mike?


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## mdavlee (Aug 10, 2014)

redfin said:


> Wow 230lbs. Did that saw have a two piece top Mike?



Nope just a non decomp KS cylinder. 

If fresh 93 was available I would probably run it. Its not a big seller so I tend to shy away from it. I've had bad batches of 93 and 87.


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## mountainlake (Aug 10, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> No E10 free stations here. E10 rots carbs/rubber and leaves snotty crap in 2 and 4 strokes.
> 
> I have > 50 year old tractors that never had the carb apart before E10. The same with my tillers and other equipment. E10 SUCKS the COB!!!!
> 
> E10 leaves something I would describe as SNOT residue. Ethanol also attracts moisture and reacts with both aluminum and magnesium, that would be most carburator bodies. When E10 absorbs enough water it makes a two phase water ethanol /hydrocarbon mix.



Snot is a good way to describe E10 after it sat for too long, my old 770 Oliver tank is full of it. The tank will have to come off and be cleaned and it will never see crapola gas again. Steve


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## MustangMike (Aug 10, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Nope just a non decomp KS cylinder.
> 
> If fresh 93 was available I would probably run it. Its not a big seller so I tend to shy away from it. I've had bad batches of 93 and 87.



What oil ratio do you run? This will also change octane (oil is harder to ignite than gas). Keep in mind the recommended octane ratings are generally for 50:1 ratio.


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## mdavlee (Aug 10, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> What oil ratio do you run? This will also change octane (oil is harder to ignite than gas). Keep in mind the recommended octane ratings are generally for 50:1 ratio.



32:1 is all I run.


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## MustangMike (Aug 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> On the 362c with 189psi(12.8to1), the chart chart calls for 93 to 94 octane. The test Ronnie and myself did was just for fun and proved nothing at all. When people like Randy, Mdavlee, Brad are all using lower octanes Im pretty sure we are wasting our time and we surely arent trying to disprove anyones theory here but only having alil fun! I wanna do the test also with square vs full comp which Ive seen the test already but If I can learn to file and see even 20 to 30% increase in cut time with square thats what I will run. This is a hobby for me and the testing is simply for fun. Im in no way trying to prove how dumb (shows already) or smart I am by being on this site. Lots of fine people here that simply give unbiased information and very helpful and thank all of u who do. Ive learned alot and will continue to as the hobby is very interesting and satisfying



Keith, don't down play the importance of what you provide. All new information is good to have, and then we can try to debate the "why" etc. For example, M-Tronic may be making adjustments to compensate for the increased octane. I don't know if that is the case, but it is an interesting possibility that may warrant additional testing. Keep up the good work, we all appreciate additional information (which hopefully leads to more knowledge).

Were you able to run any temp readings? I have heard that higher octane lowers the temp, but I would like to see some evidence. Thanks.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, don't down play the importance of what you provide. All new information is good to have, and then we can try to debate the "why" etc. For example, M-Tronic may be making adjustments to compensate for the increased octane. I don't know if that is the case, but it is an interesting possibility that may warrant additional testing. Keep up the good work, we all appreciate additional information (which hopefully leads to more knowledge).
> 
> Were you able to run any temp readings? I have heard that higher octane lowers the temp, but I would like to see some evidence. Thanks.


When I test some chains Mike Ill run some 110 and 87 and check temps


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## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

What Mike said........don't discount what you are doing here. 

You've got the wheels spinning in my head. That's a good thing........I never want to get stagnate.


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## wyk (Aug 10, 2014)

It's always good to try and experiment empirically(by means of direct observation). Hearsay and anecdotes are rife, especially in the internet age. What many are trying to say here is it is also important to make the results repeatable and to limit the amount of cross contamination/extraneous factors/variables. To do so you need to reliably repeat the process you are doing. You want the control (the wood) to be the same every time, both before and after with the saw or saws(the subject(s)). You also want the execution to be as similar as possible. You also want as large a sample as possible. What you have is a good start. However, how the subjects are used is observationally very different in your video, and the sampling is very minimal. It makes it difficult to draw any sort of conclusion from the data you provide. The more scientific the method, the more repeatable, and the larger the sample, the less controversy usually follows.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

reindeer said:


> It's always good to try and experiment empirically(by means of direct observation). Hearsay and anecdotes are rife, especially in the internet age. What many are trying to say here is it is also important to make the results repeatable and to limit the amount of cross contamination/extraneous factors/variables. To do so you need to reliably repeat the process you are doing. You want the control (the wood) to be the same every time, both before and after with the saw or saws(the subject(s)). You also want the execution to be as similar as possible. You also want as large a sample as possible. What you have is a good start. However, how the subjects are used is observationally very different in your video, and the sampling is very minimal. It makes it difficult to draw any sort of conclusion from the data you provide. The more scientific the method, the more repeatable, and the larger the sample, the less controversy usually follows.


I know the wood is a huge factor and my technique was a huge factor. I tried to make 2 parallel cuts and 2 working saw cuts and average. Overall the mess of a test did kinda show a very slight edge with the 94 for some reason? Id love to see 87 and 110 on Chads dyno. That would be more represenative of the truth


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

I bet when Randy gets his dyno he will be as excited as a monkey cuttin up in a fresh batch of bananas


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## MustangMike (Aug 10, 2014)

Too bad the 461 does not have M-tronic, or that would be a good candidate for testing octane on Chad's dyno.

You hit the nail on the head Keith, your observations provide an opportunity for further testing (like on Chad's dyno) to either confirm or refute, but information & results presented objectively are always valuable. Thanks for taking the time to do it.


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## Mad Professor (Aug 10, 2014)

mountainlake said:


> Snot is a good way to describe E10 after it sat for too long, my old 770 Oliver tank is full of it. The tank will have to come off and be cleaned and it will never see crapola gas again. Steve




Doing that with a Ford 3-cyl 2000 right now, whole fuel system full of gel. E 10 has made me get a sonic cleaner. Works good on cartridge cleaning too.

I ran/built very high compression cars back when you could drive to the airport, fill up, then do a burnout/weeile for the attendant. We could still get the purple and green AV fuel then ( >> 100 octane).


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## HuskStihl (Aug 10, 2014)

These are great threads and really highlight the benefits of dyno testing. Just some random scientific observations
1) premium gas doesn't have any more "energy/power" than regular. A gallon of each produces the same number of BTU's. It isn't denser or "better", it is only more resistant to detonation
2) these tests will be difficult due to the variability in pump gas. The stuff oxides and can both lose its potential energy and resistance to detonation (again, not the same thing) with age and storage conditions
3) m-tronic (and I obviously cannot be 100% certain, but it's close) does not monitor for detonation in the combustion chamber and alter timing based on the fuels resistance to detonation
As a disclaimer, due to my inherent belief that my saws are awesome, and should have the "best" fuel, I run brand name premium from a busy station with belray at 32:1('cause 24:1 would be nuts). All the science in the world is not gonna convince the chainsaw part of my brain that 87 isn't crap, that premium doesn't have more "power", and that my saws would explode on any sort of less expensive fuel.
PS, the 230psi 288 lives in my garage, and I apologize to it daily that that mean mdavlee put 87 into it


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> These are great threads and really highlight the benefits of dyno testing. Just some random scientific observations
> 1) premium gas doesn't have any more "energy/power" than regular. A gallon of each produces the same number of BTU's. It isn't denser or "better", it is only more resistant to detonation
> 2) these tests will be difficult due to the variability in pump gas. The stuff oxides and can both lose its potential energy and resistance to detonation (again, not the same thing) with age and storage conditions
> 3) m-tronic (and I obviously cannot be 100% certain, but it's close) does not monitor for detonation in the combustion chamber and alter timing based on the fuels resistance to detonation
> ...


Lol! Agree


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## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

I can only get non E in 87. That dictates what I'll be using.......no E fuels will be used in my saws.


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## MustangMike (Aug 10, 2014)

Jon, I hear what your are saying, and many good points, but M-Tronic does adjust timing based on temp and other factors (perhaps it experiments). I'm not sure exactly how it works or what it modifies, but if it can compensate for porting, etc, it would not surprise me if it can compensate for octane (perhaps because it runs cooler), I don't know, but I believe it is a possibility.

And you are correct that premium fuel does not have more energy, but it enables an engine to have higher compression, and higher compression will produce more power. It may also enable more timing advance, which may also produce more power.


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## sunfish (Aug 10, 2014)

I can only get E-free in 91 octane. So that is what I run...


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## mdavlee (Aug 10, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> These are great threads and really highlight the benefits of dyno testing. Just some random scientific observations
> 1) premium gas doesn't have any more "energy/power" than regular. A gallon of each produces the same number of BTU's. It isn't denser or "better", it is only more resistant to detonation
> 2) these tests will be difficult due to the variability in pump gas. The stuff oxides and can both lose its potential energy and resistance to detonation (again, not the same thing) with age and storage conditions
> 3) m-tronic (and I obviously cannot be 100% certain, but it's close) does not monitor for detonation in the combustion chamber and alter timing based on the fuels resistance to detonation
> ...



Fresh 87 figure was better than stale 93.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

Im wondering about the quality of vp or sunoco canned fuel vs pump gas?


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## Ron660 (Aug 10, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> Hmmm 12:8 ? That would be 1.5? Or do you mean 12.8 to 1?
> 
> I cannot agree with your statement concerning "protection" nor "ring seal", using 32 parts of fuel to ONE part oil.
> 
> ...


Yes, he meant 12.8:1.


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## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

Where are y'all getting a 12.8:1 compression ratio?


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## Ron660 (Aug 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> When I test some chains Mike Ill run some 110 and 87 and check temps


I don't think the 110 octane will be beneficial in the 362....compression to low. Maybe a few octane higher but more than that I'll bet it wouldn't be beneficial. The small amount of testing I've done, along with Keith's' testing, the compression ratio chart I have has been 100% correct.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Aug 10, 2014)

The 87-93 E-10 does have more detonation resistance compared to non E-10, but we know the ethanoll causes issues. I only have non ethanol 100 octane unleaded race fuel, so that is my only choice for non E-10 fuel.


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## Mad Professor (Aug 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Where are y'all getting a 12.8:1 compression ratio?



11:1 69 LT1 350 +0.030, block decked , 64cc heads surfaced, just enough clearance to let the valves go buy, crower valve train, running 40 degrees full advance. It liked the green AV gas, but the purple was overkill. We would cut the purple (130) with pump fuel.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 10, 2014)

reindeer said:


> It's always good to try and experiment empirically(by means of direct observation). Hearsay and anecdotes are rife, especially in the internet age. What many are trying to say here is it is also important to make the results repeatable and to limit the amount of cross contamination/extraneous factors/variables. To do so you need to reliably repeat the process you are doing. You want the control (the wood) to be the same every time, both before and after with the saw or saws(the subject(s)). You also want the execution to be as similar as possible. You also want as large a sample as possible. What you have is a good start. However, how the subjects are used is observationally very different in your video, and the sampling is very minimal. It makes it difficult to draw any sort of conclusion from the data you provide. The more scientific the method, the more repeatable, and the larger the sample, the less controversy usually follows.


I concur. Keith and I have discussed this. The only "independent variables" should be the different fuels. My stopwatch numbers on this test were within 3%. If less than 5%, too many variables to declare a winner unless it was repeated several times with the same conclusion. Once your results are close to 10% or more, then there's no doubt.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> 11:1 69 LT1, block decked , 64cc heads surfaced, just enough clearance to let the valves go buy, crower valve train. It liked the green AV gas, but the purple was overkill.



Your SBC means nothing in this discussion. Seriously. Two different worlds. 

I've built more drag engines than I care to remember.......but none of that applies to these engines. 

The same can be said for two stroke bike engines.......if it has a tuned pipe.......nothing that applies there will apply here. 

It's like comparing apples to horse turds. 

Keith, Ron.......How did you arrive at a 12.8 to 1 compression ratio?


----------



## sunfish (Aug 10, 2014)

I question the 12.8:1 in a saw, but agree with the use of 32:1 mix.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Im wondering about the quality of vp or sunoco canned fuel vs pump gas?


The quality of VP is way better than pump gas but its also $12-$15 a gallon. I've used VP T4 its 93 octane and a direct replacement for premium pump gas i think i paid $65 for a 5 gallon pail.


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## RiverRat2 (Aug 10, 2014)

This is great we haven't had a good discussion thread like this in a while... My main job has been in Oil and gas production related industry for nearly 40 years. from in the refineries to now the pipelines/equipment repair shops. besides that I've been racing in many different venues with 2 smokes in everything from RC boats that ran on Alky/Nitro methanol fuel turning 22K RPM's, & Karts/Moto-cross/sprint cars & on to Unlimited/outlaw Hydro class drag boats. My point is,,, I have worked/wrenched along side some pretty smart peeps,,, and have had dialogue with lab geeks/engineers and some really savvy engine builders... and from what I am reading here some really good folks that want to learn/share as well... If all a person cam get is 87 Non E fuel then by all means use it,,, that RON (Research Octane Number) is the minimum Number that the refineries are allowed to produce for that fuel grade. Most of the time when tested at the pump it is actually higher than what is posted.... The 87 Non E is by far superior than 10% E-rated 89,,, FWIW My little work car 1994 Toyota Celica that I travel to my current work region every week gets 35-37 MPG on Non E 87 fuel,,, and the flipside it gets between 30-33 MPG on 10% E fuels and is noticeably more sluggish or just doesn't have the power of the non E good stuff.... As for my Weekend Tree/Stump removal Jobs and for My *** String trimmers. Stock saws and Mower I prefer 89 Non E as a minimum,,, As for my hotrod saws I do have a few @ 200+ PSI,,, I prefer premium,,,


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## Mad Professor (Aug 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Your SBC means nothing in this discussion. Seriously. Two different worlds.
> 
> I've built more drag engines than I care to remember.......but none of that applies to these engines.
> 
> ...



Well than cc the head, w/piston above where the rings meet the top of the exhaust port. Then cc the head at TDC. Simple to do with a Chemist buret. Simple division from there. If you do not have a buret, weigh the liquid. You can use water but you better clean things soon (1g/ mL 20o C). That will give you an ACCURATE static compression. Your milage WILL vary on running compression.

Compare them. That is static compression. That will vary on a 4-stroke or 2-stroke with a running motor (camshaft/exhaust, porting exhaust). 

Now we hear about horse apples that are great for my garden. I will take those apples if shipping is free!


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## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> Well than cc the head, w/piston above where the rings meet the top of the exhaust port. Then cc the head at TDC. Simple to do with a Chemist buret. Simple division from there. If you do not have a buret, weigh the liquid. You can use water but you better clean things soon (1g/ mL 20o C). That will give you an ACCURATE static compression. Your milage WILL vary on running compression.
> 
> Compare them. That is static compression. That will vary on a 4-stroke or 2-stroke with a running motor (camshaft/exhaust, porting exhaust).
> 
> Now we hear about horse apples that are great for my garden. I will take those apples if shipping is free!



I know how to arrive at static compression ratio via testing just as you have described. And a good job you did of describing it. 

What I want to know is how Keith and Ron determined what compression ratio the engines that I built have. To date, I have never attempted to determine the compression ratio of any engine I've built.

I tend to just use cranking compression here in my shop as what decides where I want to set up any engine. The thought of carrying out testing to find trapped compression ratio hurts my head. 

If I had a nice load of horse apples, I'd gladly ship you a few.......but all I have at the moment is some cow pies.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

Take the spark plug out and shine a flashlight inside cylinder and count the bananas in there????? Lol!! Im just a dog chasin his tail here Randy but Ronnie is coming up with a reply


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## Mad Professor (Aug 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I know how to arrive at static compression ratio via testing just as you have described. And a good job you did of describing it.
> 
> What I want to know is how Keith and Ron determined what compression ratio the engines that I built have. To date, I have never attempted to determine the compression ratio of any engine I've built.
> 
> ...




Randy, cow pies would be fine too. My garden loves them both.

I know this would be difficult, but getting static compression and a reference to ported/running compression might be insightful? 

I do not do enough saws for such a reference. and would need many of the same saws, how they were done, for it to be useful.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

Im sure there are 10x the variables we r using to figure . If I have to guess the length of stroke being the biggest variable left out


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## Ron660 (Aug 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Your SBC means nothing in this discussion. Seriously. Two different worlds.
> 
> I've built more drag engines than I care to remember.......but none of that applies to these engines.
> 
> ...



Divide your compression by 14.7 (atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi). If your compression is 188 psi then divide by 14.7 to get 12.8:1. If your compression is 200psi: 200/14.7 = 13.6:1. This might sound elementary but it has correlated to an octane vs compression ratio chart I have. I've seen formulas were you take several internal measurements to find the compression ratio. Compression is compression and so far these limited tests Keith and I have done have been "spot-on" for recommended octane to compression ratios.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> Randy, cow pies would be fine too. My garden loves them both.
> 
> I know this would be difficult, but getting static compression and a reference to ported/running compression might be insightful?
> 
> I do not do enough saws for such a reference. and would need many of the same saws, how they were done, for it to be useful.



Could well be another tool in the kit, so to speak. 

Pulling the rope ten times as fast as I can at 1850ft above sea level is all I have to go by now. Very crude IMHO......


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## Mastermind (Aug 10, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Divide your compression by 14.7 (atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi). If your compression is 188 psi then divide by 14.7 to get 12.8:1. If your compression is 200psi: 200/14.7 = 13.6:1. This might sound elementary but it has correlated to an octane vs compression ratio chart I have. I've seen formulas were you take several internal measurements to find the compression ratio. Compression is compression and so far these limited tests Keith and I have done have been "spot-on" for recommended octane to compression ratios.



Cool........but I'd have to see it confirmed with some real measurements to quote it. 

What you guys have done here has made me rethink much of what I thought I knew about fuel. That is a good thing. 

Thanks for the testing.


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## sunfish (Aug 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Cool........but I'd have to see it confirmed with some real measurements to quote it.
> 
> What you guys have done here has made me rethink much of what I thought I knew about fuel. That is a good thing.
> 
> Thanks for the testing.


Randy, keep in mind when you do that 346, I run 91 octane.


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

Well hell!! Ill let the cat out tha bag! I have a big box of fresh bananas every week I buy and pack my saw inside the box with bananas covering it until the next use! Bingo!! 12.8to 1 everytime!!! Lol


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

Randy I think u need a sticker to put on the saws of a monkey with a 1/2 dozen bananas shaking them over his head and laughing!!!


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## Mad Professor (Aug 10, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Divide your compression by 14.7 (atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi). If your compression is 188 psi then divide by 14.7 to get 12.8:1. If your compression is 200psi: 200/14.7 = 13.6:1. This might sound elementary but it has correlated to an octane vs compression ratio chart I have. I've seen formulas were you take several internal measurements to find the compression ratio. Compression is compression and so far these limited tests Keith and I have done have been "spot-on" for recommended octane to compression ratios.




The other thing to be considered is, valve/camshaft for 4-strokes, and PORT TIMING for two strokes.

Static compression is NOT the same as running compression. For a two-stroke the port timing comes in to play as well as the exhaust system. Two strokes puke a lot of unused fuel out the exhaust. Dirt bike makers have addressed this with variable timing exhaust ports and tuned expansion chamber exhaust. I do not think the saw people have tried this, yet. Well some people that run honda 500cc saws have.......

To put this to rest for me. I run 100LL as I cannot get ANY non-E10 fuel. 

If I could get non-MBTE-E10 of 93 octane or better I would use that for all my saws, and most everything else.

Enjoy your weekend


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## KG441c (Aug 10, 2014)

On the serious side Id like to see Randy or Chad test the octanes on the dyno. That would settle my mind but doing these test gives me an excuse to take the monkey out on a ride!


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## wyk (Aug 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> On the serious side Id like to see Randy or Chad test the octanes on the dyno. That would settle my mind but doing these test gives me an excuse to take the monkey out on a ride!



http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/more-dyno-action-100-octane-vs-92-octane.242984/

If your saw isn't built to take advantage of higher octane, you simply will not see much difference.


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## Ron660 (Aug 10, 2014)

reindeer said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/more-dyno-action-100-octane-vs-92-octane.242984/
> 
> If your saw isn't built to take advantage of higher octane, you simply will not see much difference.


My test with 110 vs 93 in my ported 660 proved different. The 110 was nearly 10% faster although I did not retune for the 110. The saw was tuned for 93 and the 110 had slightly lower rpms but still was faster. Both were 4-stroking well at WOT. This was only one test but I'll retest to see it if I get the same results.


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## wyk (Aug 11, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> My test with 110 vs 93 in my ported 660 proved different. The 110 was nearly 10% faster although I did not retune for the 110. The saw was tuned for 93 and the 110 had slightly lower rpms but still but faster. Both were 4-stroking well at WOT. This was only one test but I'll retest to see it if I get the same results.



Did your saw have more compression than a stock saw, with advanced timing? If so, it was built to take advantage of higher octane...


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

reindeer said:


> Did your saw have more compression than a stock saw, with advanced timing? If so, it was built to take advantage of higher octane...


Randy built his saw


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## Ron660 (Aug 11, 2014)

reindeer said:


> Did your saw have more compression than a stock saw, with advanced timing? If so, it was built to take advantage of higher octane...


 Yes 200+psi


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## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Could well be another tool in the kit, so to speak.
> 
> Pulling the rope ten times as fast as I can at 1850ft above sea level is all I have to go by now. Very crude IMHO......



About 1850ft is the same with me

Gee I see you do have hills in Tennessee, thought you guys were flatlanders. I need to see those Mts on your east/NC. I love hiking and hunting.

Pulling that rope will do fine for static, how we going to figure out running comp? And that will change with muffler configuration...........

Edit. How about a comp gauge on a running motor using the decomp hole? Going to be large PSI when the sparkie goes bang.


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

Good questions. 

I'm pressed for time today though.


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## wyk (Aug 11, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Yes 200+psi



And how did you test for the difference?


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

reindeer said:


> And how did you test for the difference?


He averaged several cuts per octane then to find % he used, (v2-v1)÷v1x100=%increase or decrease


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## RiverRat2 (Aug 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Good questions.
> 
> I'm pressed for time today though.


Sheesh Randall,,,,, Well get back to work!!!! or you will never get to the overflow stuff that is hiding in the back room or under the work bench!!!! Or worse yet,,,, those Cow pies are gonna keep stacking up till you start stepping on/in them
This has been a good thread though,,, just sayin... this is a fun place especially since I figured out the ignore button works so well,,,,


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## wyk (Aug 11, 2014)

KG441c said:


> He averaged several cuts per octane then to find % he used, (v2-v1)÷v1x100=%increase or decrease



I know you think that's an answer. But, there's no data in that statement. It is the exact type of hearsay and anecdotes the internet is populated with. A lot of talking, and nothing really being said.


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

reindeer said:


> I know you think that's an answer. But, I do not see any data in that statement.


Are u trying to figure the formula out or disprove it?


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

reindeer said:


> I know you think that's an answer. But, there's no data in that statement. It is the exact type of hearsay and anecdotes the internet is populated with. A lot of talking, and nothing really being said.


Im pretty sure the formula is correct but if not just say we are a bunch of dumbasses and correct us?


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

It's Japtalian to me. 

I need a dyno.


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> It's Japtalian to me.
> 
> I need a dyno.


Man I bet that dyno will take alota work off u and take u even farther ahead in what u have perfected already?


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

I actually see it adding work in the short term........but after proving, and/or disproving some theories and ideas.......it would make what we do better and less time consuming.


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I actually see it adding work in the short term........but after proving, and/or disproving some theories and ideas.......it would make what we do better and less time consuming.


Seems testing tweaks would be more apparent and dialing the timing in on each saw model with easier to see results without gathering as much wood to test, etc. In the long run make life alil easier? Maybe some testing of tuned exhaust?


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Could u imagine giving us rednecks an adjustable exhaust!!!??? Lol! Id have an
adjustment tool on mine already!!!


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

I'll probably leave the tuned pipes alone.......at least until my grandson is old enough to race a saw. Then I'll likely build him a few nitro saws.


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## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

Don't understand why my alerts work for some threads but not for others, even when it indicates it is on!

Anyway, as I have stated before, this is good stuff to suggest further testing to either validate or invalidate the info. But experimenting, even if not scientific, is always fun and often provides valuable info.


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

Exactly........when this stuff stops being any fun..........it just becomes another boring job. 

I was on the phone for about an hour early this morning brainstorming with a guy about fuel delivery issues on a race saw......that's when I learn the most.


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## blsnelling (Aug 11, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> M*-Tronic does adjust timing based on temp and other factors* (perhaps it experiments). I'm not sure exactly how it works or what it modifies, but if it can compensate for porting, etc, it would not surprise me if it can compensate for octane (perhaps because it runs cooler), I don't know, but I believe it is a possibility.


M-Tronic does one thing. It adjusts the fuel at WOT based on RPM. RPM is referenced, fuel adjusted, RPM referenced again, fuel adjusted based on results of the previous adjustment. This is done many times per second. There is nothing in the system that alters ignition timing. AFAIK, there are no other parameters besides RPM, which is picked up through the coil. It really is just that simple. Any timing adjustment is hard coded into the coil, just as it's been done for years. Timing is retarded at very low RPMs it make starting easier. It quickly goes to max advance and stays there.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 11, 2014)

All this time i thought there was a little guy in there with a laptop that did it all.


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## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> M-Tronic does one thing. It adjusts the fuel at WOT based on RPM. RPM is referenced, fuel adjusted, RPM referenced again, fuel adjusted based on results of the previous adjustment. This is done many times per second. There is nothing in the system that alters ignition timing. AFAIK, there are no other parameters besides RPM, which is picked up through the coil. It really is just that simple. Any timing adjustment is hard coded into the coil, just as it's been done for years. Timing is retarded at very low RPMs it make starting easier. It quickly goes to max advance and stays there.




So you are saying that this statement, which is posted on the Stihl website, is just bull crap? I think they would open themselves to big liability if that were the case, and I don't think they would do that.

From the Stihl Website:

"The STIHL M-Tronic™ engine management system electronically controls the ignition timing and fuel metering in any operating condition, factoring in altitude and fuel quality. This system provides professionals with optimum performance, whether you are just starting to work or resuming after a break."

Note it says "factoring in ... fuel quality", gee, I wonder what that means?


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 11, 2014)

M-Tronic consists of a coil and a carb. Just like coils have for years, it advances the ignition after idle speeds. So in that sense, they can say that M-Tronic alters ignition. However, I have seen no technical documentation to suggest that M-Tronic has any capability to adjust ignition timing real time, based on any kind of parameter. As I said before, it's hard coded to got to full advance shortly after idle speeds. 

Here's another quote I just found.

The STIHL M-Tronic continuously monitors the operating conditions of your chain saw or brushcutter, *calculating engine speed to continuously meter fuel*. You save on fuel costs while experiencing optimum engine performance.


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## blsnelling (Aug 11, 2014)

Here's another quote.

*How M-Tronic works*
M-Tronic is clever: It controls the ignition timing and fuel metering precisely and electronically in every operating mode. It even takes into account external conditions such as temperature, elevation and fuel quality. What does that mean for you? You can focus completely on your tasks and get to work straight away.

How can what I'm saying be true after reading the above? It's simple. Temperature, elevation, and fuel quality all affect the correct tune. How is the correct tune maintained? By adjusting WOT fuel. There are no sensors for ambient temperature, elevation, or fuel quality. The affects of all of these variables are accounted by simply monitoring RPMs.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)




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## treesmith (Aug 11, 2014)

Does octane rating affect soot/carbon build up? I read the other 362 thread about soot build up in that 362 ran on 93...


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

Good question Andy. But if you are referring to Mike's 362, I really think it was just running overly lean for some reason.


----------



## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2014)

I love all my early saws that are simple to tune and repair. Hell I even like points if that makes things run good. 

I detest all the new cars that takes a $50K machine to work on.

M-tronic? Not for me. Even the EPA crap limited carbs and no high adj. SUCK!!!! 

Give me ethanol free gas and a saw a simple man can fix.

BTW, I still have a 9N ford, that I can fix with a VERY small toolbox, and uses less fuel than the Chi-Com tractors on the market now. Doubt me? A tank of the 87 crap they sell now runs all day pushing a brush hog in 4ft tall goldenrods. If I cannot fix that N with the tools I carry something is VERY wrong, but that has not happened in the last 40 years.


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## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

I courted my wife on an 8N.


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Ronnie just checked his 660 and the 036 I built him, both running on motul 880t, and they are both clean as new


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

Randy, I have to share, my wife and I went up to my property in the Catskills a few days ago, and as we were leaving, no more than a few miles from my property, there was a huge 4wd tractor being piloted by a female wearing a bikini top. You just could not miss it. I tried to pretend I did not notice, by my wife definitely said something.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ronnie just checked his 660 and the 036 I built him, both running on motul 880t, and they are both clean as new



Keith, there was soot in the muff of my 362, bur absolutely none in the muff of my 044, and they both run the same fuel, so I don't think that is the answer.

Just looking forward to getting back a little beast!


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## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I courted my wife on an 8N.



Then She is a keeper. 

Can't beat a farm girl with a good figure. 

Most all can cook, clean, and not afraid to work in the house or barn. Even will clean your fish.....some your deer....


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## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Mike , Randy got her all cleaned up and ready . Im not sure if Randy recalibrates after he ports but I recalibrated mine when I got it back and its a different animal now. Stihl tech told me a different calibration than the manual


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## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

I will never forget my brother and I going hunting with my cousin. We grew up in the suburbs of NY, but my cousin was upstate on a 125 acre dairy farm. We were deer hunting, and had nothing but slugs (the old non saboted ones), and in the fog a grouse landed on a branch about 40 yds out. My practice at turkey shoots paid off, and I put a slug through the neck (w a 28" mod chk barrel w/a bead).

My cousin was carrying the grouse back, and as we approached the farm house, I tried to discuss with him who would gut & clean it. He just responded "don't worry about it". He enters the house with the grouse and tosses it in the sink and hollers to his Mom "grouse in the sink", them promptly walks out of the house. We had grouse that night for dinner, but my brother and I nearly peed out paints!


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## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Mike , Randy got her all cleaned up and ready . Im not sure if Randy recalibrates after he ports but I recalibrated mine when I got it back and its a different animal now. Stihl tech told me a different calibration than the manual




What did he tell you?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

1)Crank in run position and let idle for 
90 sec. And move control all the way 
To off
2) Recrank and put lever in run and let
Idle for 90 sec. And shut off
3) Recrank and make 5 full cuts in 
Wood under a full load


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## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Mike , Randy got her all cleaned up and ready . Im not sure if Randy recalibrates after he ports but I recalibrated mine when I got it back and its a different animal now. Stihl tech told me a different calibration than the manual



I stihl run old saws. The stihl rep is CLUELESS/fubar. The shop manager can't tune a carb to save his arse. Parts person helps but is pretty dumbfounded.

There is an an older man , Bratcher, in Bennington Vt, another local . He knows his saws. Go there if you need help. Billy is the best.


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## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

Thanks, I will give that a try (unless Randy advises otherwise).


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> I stihl run old saws. The stihl rep is CLUELESS/fubar. The shop manager can't tune a carb to save his arse. Parts person helps but is pretty dumbfounded.
> 
> There is an an older man , Bratcher, in Bennington Vt, another local . He knows his saws. Go there if you need help. Billy is the best.



I like both the old and new, each has some advantages. For example, the new saws will keep the air filter cleaner for a lot longer. I'm surprised there are not any 044s in that lineup of yours, I think you would really like that saw (even though the 038 super is close).


----------



## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I will never forget my brother and I going hunting with my cousin. We grew up in the suburbs of NY, but my cousin was upstate on a 125 acre dairy farm. We were deer hunting, and had nothing but slugs (the old non saboted ones), and in the fog a grouse landed on a branch about 40 yds out. My practice at turkey shoots paid off, and I put a slug through the neck (w a 28" mod chk barrel w/a bead).
> 
> My cousin was carrying the grouse back, and as we approached the farm house, I tried to discuss with him who would gut & clean it. He just responded "don't worry about it". He enters the house with the grouse and tosses it in the sink and hollers to his Mom "grouse in the sink", them promptly walks out of the house. We had grouse that night for dinner, but my brother and I nearly peed out paints!



Nice shot with a foster slug! So not to get off subject, what mix was the 12ga running? : )


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## HuskStihl (Aug 11, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> So you are saying that this statement, which is posted on the Stihl website, is just bull crap? I think they would open themselves to big liability if that were the case, and I don't think they would do that?


If you had seen the literature on the intellicarb you would have sworn that it was a supercomputer rather than a rubber tube. As I said before, I don't know for sure what it does and doesn't, but sometimes advertisements make a product seem more advanced than they are. Brad and Randy have been in plenty of m-tronic cylinders. If there was a knock sensor listening for detonation, they prolly would have found it. Adjusting fuel at WOT will accomplish all their claims, including bad gas. It seems like a great product, and I'm sorry for starting the debate up again


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> If you had seen the literature on the intellicarb you would have sworn that it was a supercomputer rather than a rubber tube. As I said before, I don't know for sure what it does and doesn't, but sometimes advertisements make a product seem more advanced than they are. Brad and Randy have been in plenty of m-tronic cylinders. If there was a knock sensor listening for detonation, they prolly would have found it. Adjusting fuel at WOT will accomplish all their claims, including bad gas. It seems like a great product, and I'm sorry for starting the debate up again


I like these discussions. Learn alot from the input from everyone and each piece helps make a pie!!! Who likes PIE?????


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## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I like both the old and new, each has some advantages. For example, the new saws will keep the air filter cleaner for a lot longer. I'm surprised there are not any 044s in that lineup of yours, I think you would really like that saw (even though the 038 super is close).



I get them when they are cheap.

I have a 064 in the works and a NOS OEM P/C to go there. No 044 have come buy cheap.

All my 038s were free, so were my 036s. I got paid back rent money for my 028S. My 056 were almost all free. I gave $50 for 1 running 056MII and a 026 with new 3003 bar and chain, Paid $95 for a nice 026 with multiple bars and chains. 

Only new saw is the 066 I got with my mill, pretty reasonable.

The old Homies are from my dad. They still run great.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 11, 2014)

reindeer said:


> And how did you test for the difference?


Timed cuts then calculate the percent difference. Only difference "independent variable' were the fuels. It's a previous post named "Ported 660: 93 vs 110" if you want to see the data. When figuring percent difference in cut speeds do the following: ex. lets say your saw averages three cuts in 10.5 seconds with 89 octane. Then you average three cuts with an octane of 100 for 14 seconds. How much faster (percent) was the 89 octane? Subtract 14 from 10.5 then divide the difference by 14 (since 14 was the slowest). 
14 - 10.5 = 3.5
3.5/14 = 0.25
Then convert it to a percent you multiply your answer by 100.
100 x 0.25 = 25%
So the 89 octane cut 25% faster than the 100. This was only an example and I'm sure most of you already know this. Just a little math help if anyone was interested.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Timed cuts then calculate the percent difference. Only difference "independent variable' were the fuels. It's a previous post named "Ported 660: 93 vs 110" if you want to see the data. When figuring percent difference in cut speeds do the following: ex. lets say your saw averages three cuts in 10.5 seconds with 89 octane. Then you average three cuts with an octane of 100 for 14 seconds. How much faster (percent) was the 89 octane? Subtract 14 from 10.5 then divide the difference by 14 (since 14 was the slowest).
> 14 - 10.5 = 3.5
> 3.5/14 = 0.25
> Then convert it to a percent you multiply your answer by 100.
> ...


And I was crucified for posting the dang formula??? Lol! I was called all kind of fancy words


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 11, 2014)

When did cutting wood become so scientific?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> When did cutting wood become so scientific?


Its not? Its a hobby for some and not work?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 11, 2014)

I guess


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Well it is for me and these little test and times and oil threads and performance of saws interest me and I like learning? Just curious, why do u like AS?


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 11, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> When did cutting wood become so scientific?


Sometimes a little Math and Science makes your hobbies more interesting. It might help you win a bet one day! As a kid I was always curious and asked a lot of questions. My Dad was the opposite. He knew he had to keep his chain sharp, adjusted, and full of fuel and oil. Firewood cutting was a chore and nothing more. But if you take the time to ask "why" and learn as much as you can then work (like firewood cutting) might become more enjoyable. And your equipment will operate better and last longer. If I would have taken my Stihl Dealer's suggestions (use only stihl oil and never adjust your carb) then my saw would have never been ported and I'd never learned JASO ratings of oil!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

What a mess of a thread. Octane???? Lol!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

I like a little octane in my grits.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Did learn some more about oils though today didn't we Ronnie? H1r or Motul 800t for me. No sense in saying anything drawn from the conclusions because someone will be waiting to kick your ***** up in your throat!!! Lol


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 11, 2014)

Motul 800,H1R,and Maxima K2 are the 3 cleanest burning oil i've used.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

Kick your ***** in your throat? 

Well.......five letters......hmmmmm.......


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

I


Mastermind said:


> Kick your ***** in your throat?
> 
> Well.......five letters......hmmmmm.......


Hope I have 2!!! Lmbo!!


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 11, 2014)

I need to hurry and figure out all this saw stuff before October.....hunting season is coming. Then I'll start tinkering with handloads in my custom deer rifles. I have too many hobbies and not enough time. Work keeps getting in the way.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

I've been getting a few head of beef to tend too. I enjoy watching them chew their cud.........more relaxing than I'd have dreamed.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> I need to hurry and figure out all this saw stuff before October.....hunting season is coming. Then I'll start tinkering with handloads in my custom deer rifles. I have too many hobbies and not enough time. Work keeps getting in the way.


If AS keeps getting my blood pressure up I'm gonna target practice on my saws before hunting season!!!! Not!! Think I'll kick myself on that one!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've been getting a few head of beef to tend too. I enjoy watching them chew their cud.........more relaxing than I'd have dreamed.


Almost like meditation watching them give that cud heck!!!!! Hmmmmmmmm!!!lmbo


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 11, 2014)

Just gotta chill out. 

I've been removing many layers of stress. Life is very good these days.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 11, 2014)

KG441c said:


> If AS keeps getting my blood pressure up I'm gonna target practice on my saws before hunting season!!!! Not!! Think I'll kick myself on that one!!


Sitting on a deer stand, peace and quiet, is relaxation to me. If I get one, that's just a bonus.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 11, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Sitting on a deer stand, peace and quiet, is relaxation to me. If I get one, that's just a bonus.


I get that from being in the shop with music playing and involved with a project on a saw! Then the damn formulas start going through my head!!! Compression,oil, ratio, octane,etc,etc,etc!!!!opcorn:


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 11, 2014)

Mad Professor said:


> Nice shot with a foster slug! So not to get off subject, what mix was the 12ga running? : )



It was a Remington 1 oz 2&3/4" slug in an old Rem 870 I purchased in 1970. Still have it. I won a lot of Turkey shoots with that gun. They used to be more popular, and that was before saboted slugs became popular. The other shotgun that was very popular at the turkey shoots back then was the Ithaca Deerslayer, with the rifled sights barrel. I shot right with them. Most of the competitions were at 50 yards, and that gun took the X out of a lot of targets


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ronnie just checked his 660 and the 036 I built him, both running on motul 880t, and they are both clean as new


 
Nice and shiny inside my 660 on Motul 800 at 32:1 with no carbon buildup. Randy did an excellent job on the muffler mod. While idling, sounds like a race car. I love the sound of a Mastermind ported saw in the morning!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Damn you Ron..........

I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......

Crap.......I might need to try that stuff. 

But NO !!!!!!!!

I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......

Damn you Ron.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 12, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Damn you Ron..........
> 
> I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......
> 
> ...


 
Once you go black you want go back!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Hes crazy Randy!! That Motul is gonna turn good bananas into bad bananas!! BelRay H1R!!!! Just kiddin buddy . Looks great!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

Actually if you smell Motul in the bottle it smells like bananas


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Actually if you smell Motul in the bottle it smells like bananas


U saidbu used both h1r and motul? Which did u prefer?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Yeah.......which?

Holy crap.........not another oil.....

Smells like bananas????

I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......I will not try another oil.......


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

The Motul is easier for me to get, the bike shop that has H1R is farther away so i use Motul but quality wise i would say they're just about the same as well as the Maxima K2


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah.......which?
> 
> Holy crap.........not another oil.....
> 
> ...


Yup smells like bananas in the bottle


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Oh man.........


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

800t offroad 69.99 free shipping per 4l bottle


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

The place i buy my Motul suggested 800 Road Racing for chain saws instead of 800 Off Road because it was designed for higher revs for longer periods of time....not sure if it makes a difference or not.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Which is which Kenjax? Theres a black bottle and a gray bottle. The gray is quite a bit cheaper


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

Good question lol i didn't know there were 2.... i have a black bottle


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Ok Ronnie and myself discussed and studied the higher grades of oil like H1r,880t off road which all have almost 2x the flashpoint of their other grades such as m1r and the 800 road racing. Question is do the higher flashpoints of thoso oils impede ignition more and slow down the rate of burn as octane does as Mustang has been stating? Do higher flashpoint oils have the same effect as higher octane fuels????


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm getting low on H1R.....


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 12, 2014)

I would only use the off-road 800 2T


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Do the lower flashpoint oils ignite quicker in the shorter 2 stroke as chainsaws r and produce more energy as we say lower octanes do?.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 12, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm getting low on H1R.....


 Time for an upgrade.....your engines deserve it! 800 off-road
The spec sheets I've read show an advantage in viscosity, and other parameters, for the Motul.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Lets get scientific!!!! Lmbo!!


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 12, 2014)

I know VP uses Motul 710 in their canned 94 octane fuels.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> I know VP uses Motul 710 in their canned 94 octane fuels.


It runs great too! Awesome stuff


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

I think the big difference between 710 and 800 is the 800 has an additive to keep power valves cleaner


----------



## redfin (Aug 12, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Timing is retarded at very low RPMs it make starting easier. It quickly goes to max advance and stays there.


How exactly does the saw accomplish this?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Do the lower flashpoint oils ignite quicker in the shorter 2 stroke as chainsaws r and produce more energy as we say lower octanes do?.


The oil contribution to the overall power is so small that a change in flashpoint won't be noticeable. I'd actually prefer the oil _not_ burn too much


redfin said:


> How exactly does the saw accomplish this?


Almost all modern saws have a coil which advances the timing at higher RPM's. It is done with electronic magic. The curve of the advance is slightly different among manufacturers, but the overall idea of ignition retardation at low rpm for easier starting and advancing thru the RPM range to produce more power and a better/cleaner burn


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

Magic


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Motul 800t off road has the highest flashpoint of the oils that Ronnie and myself have found. H1R is alil less but not much


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Almost all modern saws have a coil which advances the timing at higher RPM's. It is done with electronic magic. The curve of the advance is slightly different among manufacturers, but the overall idea of ignition retardation at low rpm for easier starting and advancing thru the RPM range to produce more power and a better/cleaner burn



Nice answer Jon. Thanks.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 12, 2014)

Is the timing control built into the coil itself? In other words, if you replace the coil w/an aftermarket, do you risk fouling everything up?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Yes.......built into the coil. 

And I have used some AM coils that performed fine........and a few that did not. 

When it comes to coils I prefer to use OEM.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Just knocked a few cookies off with your 362 Mike..........I think you will approve.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 12, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Just knocked a few cookies off with your 362 Mike..........I think you will approve.



That is great news, because if you like it I know I will like it!


----------



## redfin (Aug 12, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Almost all modern saws have a coil which advances the timing at higher RPM's. It is done with electronic magic. The curve of the advance is slightly different among manufacturers, but the overall idea of ignition retardation at low rpm for easier starting and advancing thru the RPM range to produce more power and a better/cleaner burn



So there is solid state magic in the coil? Where are the m-tronic saws reading the rpm? From the coil?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

redfin said:


> So there is solid state magic in the coil? Where are the m-tronic saws reading the rpm? From the coil?


Has to be a sensor maybe in the coil reading crankshaft rpm?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Just knocked a few cookies off with your 362 Mike..........I think you will approve.




Gonna need proof ,i do not believe you .........


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

redfin said:


> So there is solid state magic in the coil? Where are the m-tronic saws reading the rpm? From the coil?



The system is a very simple feedback system. It adjusts the mixture........reads RPM........readjusts.......reads RPM........etc. 

I'm sure that is a vast undersimplification.......but is the gist of it. 




Trx250r180 said:


> Gonna need proof ,i do not believe you .........



I figured you would trust me by now.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

Well Mike said his 362 can spank my hybrids ,I will have to take his word for it now .......


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

I've had seven people ask me to do a saw this morning.........I'm not sure if I should book work any further ahead though.

What do you guys think I should do. Seriously.........your thoughts are important to me.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 12, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Well Mike said his 362 can spank my hybrids ,I will have to take his word for it now .......



No, I never said that, but it is one heck of a nice thought! However, the 362 is lighter than your hybrids, and for limbing and bucking w/a 20" bar, it should be fantastic.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Well Mike said his 362 can spank my hybrids ,I will have to take his word for it now .......



Well........I wouldn't go quite that far dot dot dot


----------



## watsonr (Aug 12, 2014)

the coil reads the number of events during the magnetic rotation. As it rotates, it creates a magnetic field, it's either building one or it's collapsing one...the positive and negative if you will, it's cutting those lines created by the magnetic field as it rotates. As it builds, it's charging the spark and when it's collapsing, it's discharging the spark.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 12, 2014)

Randy, you are in an enviable position, just make sure you do not become a victim of your own success. I would not book longer than 6 mos out, and if that means putting up the stop sign now and then, well, then that is what you have to do. As much as you want to keep everyone happy, you have to keep yourself healthy first. Your previous post about reducing stress is exactly what you should be focusing on. I think you also stated you would be increasing your fees in the future, that will also help.

Your dilemma is a tribute to your work. Glad I booked when I did, I saw this coming.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've had seven people ask me to do a saw this morning.........I'm not sure if I should book work any further ahead though.
> 
> What do you guys think I should do. Seriously.........your thoughts are important to me.


It would all depend on how quickly and easily you could fill a slot that somebody backed out of. The problems with being booked out months in advance are that it will discourage some customers (but if you are booked out that far in advance, you shouldn't worry about that), and the potential likelihood that people will flake out during the wait time. Lots of stuff can come up in 3 months making the $300 commitment difficult to follow through on. If you had a way to make sure that if the next guy in line flakes out, you still have a saw on your bench, no big deal.
If you start to get "no-shows", charging $50 to reserve a spot (applied to the port work when done) will nip that in the bud nicely.


My personal feeling is you should book out as long as people want, and adjust your policies based upon how that works

Edit: I'm sorry to be the ******* to say this, but you should raise your porting fee. You have earned a reputation, you have every right to charge for that, and people should have every expectation to pay for it


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Mike, no one should be envious of the amount of time I spend in this shop. 

Porting saw after saw is not exciting work. 

I'll be thinking on this problem........and continue to be thankful that people want me to do this work for them.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

Clones




A bunch of mini Masterminds with fordoms


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Oh Lawd.........help us all.


----------



## LegDeLimber (Aug 12, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> I like it.....
> 
> This seems fitting to post in a "Mastermind" topic thread. If you can get past the first 15 seconds.... it's hilarious.



Most of the Doctors and my family have tried to medicate that propensity out of my noggin
for the last forty or so years.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 12, 2014)

Randy I have some Motul 800 here. A liter and part of a liter left. I like it better than Belray. I can't use the H1r without my nose running after about a tank milling. 

That sounds like a good problem and bad problem to have.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Randy I have some Motul 800 here. A liter and part of a liter left. I like it better than Belray. I can't use the H1r without my nose running after about a tank milling.
> 
> That sounds like a good problem and bad problem to have.


The smell of the H1r bothers me also. Ive researched the 2 motul 800t oils, the offroad and the road racing. The road racing has 5x the film strength vs 3x on the offroad, and a higher viscosity index. The road racing 800t also has a cleaning agent as well. I shot motul tech a email on saw, compression, and rpm and ask which would be better in a saw


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 800t offroad 69.99 free shipping per 4l bottle


Thats a little cheaper than a gallon of Stihl Ultra,
have you got a link for that????

Hey wait,,, has this turned into an,,,,,,,, OIL THREAD????????


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Ebay


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 12, 2014)

I usually get mine from Rocky mountain atv. Free 3 day shipping right now for orders over $49.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I usually get mine from Rocky mountain atv.


Do u use the 800t offroad or road racing?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

I love the smell of H1r in the morning. Smells like victory. 
Seriously tho, y'all are splitting hairs mighty fine regarding which high performance ester oil is "best" for your saw. This is gonna sound totally nuts, but I've heard they will actually run on the cheap bailey's synthetic (but only if you are using 116 octane leaded).


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Do u use the 800t offroad or road racing?



Off road is what I have. I'll probably go back to maxima k2 when I buy more. It has the least odor when milling and burning a tank every 12 minutes.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 12, 2014)

Yeah Jon.......that is nuts. 



Cheap oil.........in a tool????? You need a banana?


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 12, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I usually get mine from Rocky mountain atv. Free 3 day shipping right now for orders over $49.


 Thanks mike, I will check it out,,, I detest EBAY


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Im considering the motul 800t road race as kenjax said earlier its for higher revving loads and has better viscosity index, higher flashpoint, and higher film strength than the offroad


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

Is it true if you cut in the rain should use an outboard oil ?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Well of course?? Lol!! In the case of a saw,an oil being offroad or roadracing, both designed for 2t, wouldnt be a consideration for a saw either way would it?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Is it true if you cut in the rain should use an outboard oil ?


Definitely. It will take better advantage of the water cooling effect.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 12, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Is it true if you cut in the rain should use an outboard oil ?



And you must attach a propeller to your recoil, helps to dry the saw faster!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Fellows the motul 800t roadracing is a 2t oil not a 4 cycle oil in case anyone was wondering


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> And you must attach a propeller to your recoil, helps to dry the saw faster!


MustangMike, MustangMike, MustangMike.....Even the newbiest of newbies knows that attaching a propeller to the recoil, while using outboard oil is the _worst _thing you can do. The propeller will negate the water cooling properties of the rain/outboard oil synergistic reaction, resulting in _higher, _not lower operating temps. Propellers attached to the recoil should only be used in conjunction with oils designed for air cooling. Sheesh


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Thats the 


HuskStihl said:


> MustangMike, MustangMike, MustangMike.....Even the newbiest of newbies knows that attaching a propeller to the recoil, while using outboard oil is the _worst _thing you can do. The propeller will negate the water cooling properties of the rain/outboard oil synergistic reaction, resulting in _higher, _not lower operating temps. Propellers attached to the recoil should only be used in conjunction with oils designed for air cooling. Sheesh


Thats the question I had for motul tech. I hope they recommend the offroad as its 6$ a liter cheaper!! I guess the offroad wouldbbe better suited for offroad? Guess I look like the dumbass now???lol


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

Where is off road $6 cheaper?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)




----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Ebay


KenJax Tree said:


> Where is off road $6 cheaper?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


>


But since when are offroad motorcycles aircooled anymore?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ebay


69.99 for offroad. 4l


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

I think 84 for road racing per 4l


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> 69.99 for offroad. 4l


Correction. Ebay has the motul 800t offroad for 62.23 shipped. 15.55 per liter


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 12, 2014)

I think i paid about $18 per liter


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I think i paid about $18 per liter


Kenjax the offroad is way cheaper but I emailed motul tech for their recommendation on the 2 but both are designed for watercooled engines. Belray h1r included


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

Y'all have your thinking caps on too tight. "Motor oil is motor oil" (for the oldies out there)


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Y'all have your thinking caps on too tight. "Motor oil is motor oil" (for the oldies out there)


I dont buy it. Ive seen 2 stroke oils that soot and carbon things up and some that burn better and have better lab results such as film strength? Ill go with lab results and results ive seen with my own eyes and share it and if someone gets something from it or teaches me something great


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I dont buy it. Ive seen 2 stroke oils that soot and carbon things up and some that burn better and have better lab results such as film strength? Ill go with lab results and results ive seen with my own eyes and share it and if someone gets something from it or teaches me something great



The older ones used motor oil ,says so right on my saw .


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> The older ones used motor oil ,says so right on my saw .
> 
> View attachment 363252


U must be real old??? Lol! Sorry I dont remember thoso


----------



## KG441c (Aug 12, 2014)

So the old ones used premix and crankcase oil?


----------



## Termite (Aug 12, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I love the smell of H1r in the morning. Smells like victory.
> Seriously tho, y'all are splitting hairs mighty fine regarding which high performance ester oil is "best" for your saw. This is gonna sound totally nuts, but I've heard they will actually run on the cheap bailey's synthetic (but only if you are using 116 octane leaded).


What's wrong with Bailey's synthetic? I got 5 gallons with free shipping!


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I dont buy it. Ive seen 2 stroke oils that soot and carbon things up and some that burn better and have better lab results such as film strength? Ill go with lab results and results ive seen with my own eyes and share it and if someone gets something from it or teaches me something great





Trx250r180 said:


> The older ones used motor oil ,says so right on my saw .
> 
> View attachment 363252





KG441c said:


> U must be real old??? Lol! Sorry I dont remember thoso


This should explain everything


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> U must be real old??? Lol! Sorry I dont remember thoso





KG441c said:


> So the old ones used premix and crankcase oil?




Yes i am old ,look at muh picture ,no crankcase oil ,the mix was motor oil


----------



## sunfish (Aug 12, 2014)

KG441c said:


> So the old ones used premix and crankcase oil?


No, motor oil mixed with gas. It was that way for quite a long time with early two strokes.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 12, 2014)

Termite said:


> What's wrong with Bailey's synthetic? I got 5 gallons with free shipping!



Nothing. I just won't buy anything from them any more after they kicked grande Dogg and the others to the curb.


----------



## Termite (Aug 12, 2014)

I haven't bought anything from Bailey's in a long time. The oil is pretty old! Do it get stale?
I have found better sources for parts and supplies now.


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 12, 2014)

That motul 800 is expensive as here. $35 a litre. H1r is $23 . Same shop. This shop also had the best price on eBay too. $125 for 4 litre of motul. 
I think I will stick to my Mobil 1. Got 11 litres of it. Should last a few years [emoji12]


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 13, 2014)

KG441c said:


> So the old ones used premix and crankcase oil?


Actually some of the oldest you had to soak a couple of dinosaur turds in your fuel can for a week,,, or longer. Then you squeezed tha oil right out of em and mixed them @ 16:1 with what ever gas you could find cause it was all good chit back then!!!! & did I mention we didn't have a Stinkin EPA telling us to put corn and soybeans in our gas!!!! Just sayin,,, If ya Don't believe it!!! ask Go Log it!!!!!!! He was there!!!!



VinceGU05 said:


> That motul 800 is expensive as here. $35 a litre. H1r is $23 . Same shop. This shop also had the best price on eBay too. $125 for 4 litre of motul.
> I think I will stick to my Mobil 1. Got 11 litres of it. Should last a few years [emoji12]



Too bad I just paid half of that Shipped from http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/ $63.99 for 4 L Jug cant beat it!!!


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 13, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Nothing. I just won't buy anything from them any more after they kicked grande Dogg and the others to the curb.


Yeah really,,, Thanks big guy for the Tip on the Motul pre mix from Utah!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Thought Id share what Motul technical support had said. Neither Motul 800t oils are designed for chainsaw and they didnt recommend it. They make a chainsaw specific oil but isnt offered in the US. He ask what was the application and the duty of chainsaw and I told him around 11000 rpm and only a few seconds between cuts. He then said Motul 800t road racing was designed for higher rpm continous duty and thats what he recommended over the offroad. Kenjax guess your dealer recommended the right oil to u. Looks like road racing motul has about 2x better film strength than off road but Ronnie is checking data with tech support on that as we speak to be sure


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 13, 2014)

Keith, I have a question for you, or a few? When you tried the AMSoil Saber, what ratio did you run?

Also, it has the FD rating, that is the best, correct? Do you know what ratio got that rating?

Thanks.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2014)

Good info on the motul. I don't see anything wrong with it in my saws I've torn down.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, I have a question for you, or a few? When you tried the AMSoil Saber, what ratio did you run?
> 
> Also, it has the FD rating, that is the best, correct? Do you know what ratio got that rating?
> 
> Thanks.


They recommend 100 to 1 but I mixed 50 to1 and after 1 use there was soot everywhere. I wouldnt run 100 to1 but thats me


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Mike Amsoil says it exceeds 


MustangMike said:


> Keith, I have a question for you, or a few? When you tried the AMSoil Saber, what ratio did you run?
> 
> Also, it has the FD rating, that is the best, correct? Do you know what ratio got that rating?
> 
> Thanks.


mike amsoil says it exceeds fd but they choose not to participate in the Jaso testing and not published on their bottle if I remember correctly


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Motul 800t Road Racing is 21$ more per 4l but I wanna protect my BANANAS at all cost!!! Lol


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 13, 2014)

I would not run it 100:1. It does however have FD on the bottle.

I was also disappointed to realize that the Sithl stuff is FB.


----------



## redfin (Aug 13, 2014)

What is the specific difference between oil designed for air cooled verses water cooled 2-strokes?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I would not run it 100:1. It does however have FD on the bottle.
> 
> I was also disappointed to realize that the Sithl stuff is FB.


Ya me too. Ronnie and myself have studied the oil thing before but just started looking at the Motul. Ronnie is talking with tech support now to verify that they wouldnt have contradiction in their recommendation


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

redfin said:


> What is the specific difference between oil designed for air cooled verses water cooled 2-strokes?


Temperature ranges but Im only guessing


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 13, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Temperature ranges but Im only guessing



I have seen in writing that you are correct. Air cooled operate at a higher temp.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

http://www.belray.com/sites/default...Racing 100% Synthetic Ester 2T Engine Oil.pdf


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Thats what I thought mike which means in using motorcycle 2t oil for saws one would be ahead if he looked for a higher film strength 2t oil for the saws?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> http://www.belray.com/sites/default/files/pds_files/H1-R Racing 100% Synthetic Ester 2T Engine Oil.pdf


Is there a spec sheet with all the indexes and film strengths Randy?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

Probably......but that stuff hurts my head.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

I was trying to find where it said it was for water cooled engines......


----------



## redfin (Aug 13, 2014)

1c said:


> Temperature ranges but Im only guessing


Thanks Keith. Reading the sheet Randy posted, this would be suitable for an outboard also? I have been running Quicksilver in my outboards but it would be nice to just buy one oil.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

redfin said:


> Thanks Keith. Reading the sheet Randy posted, this would be suitable for an outboard also? I have been running Quicksilver in my outboards but it would be nice to just buy one oil.


I cant anwser that one but I wouldnt


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

I wouldn't either.......boat motors are a breed apart in my mind. 


I did find this in that sheet I posted......

"Suitable for air cooled or liquid cooled 2 stroke engines"


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

I used Amsoil 2t oil .and Yamaha ring free in 200hp+ outboard racing engines for yrs with no problems


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

I would say h1r, motul 800t, maxima k2 is overkill but best protection. They all burn clean and interals stay clean


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Ronnie talked with Motul rep. And he says there isnt any difference in the motul 800 offroad and the road race except the offroad has extra cleaning additive for offroad dusty condition. Lol! Totally opposite from what the Motul tech. Support told me. My question would be if the offroad has more additives than the road race why does it cost 21$ more per 4l?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm just gonna order another couple of liters of H1R.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 13, 2014)

Motul Rep. stated it very clearly. Both Motul 800's, off-road and road racing, have the same protection or film strength/same oil. The only differences are the additives for the application or activities. He said the off-road has a cleaning additive for dirty, dusty, conditions. I would consider wood cutting, airborne sawdust, this type of activity. If you're already using Belray H1R I see no need in changing. Sounds like we're splitting hairs with this stuff but I've found my answer. All of these oils are extremely high quality and you couldn't go wrong with either the Motul or Belray.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Motul Rep. stated it very clearly. Both Motul 800's, off-road and road racing, have the same protection or film strength/same oil. The only differences are the additives for the application or activities. He said the off-road has a cleaning additive for dirty, dusty, conditions. I would consider wood cutting, airborne sawdust, this type of activity. If you're already using Belray H1R I see no need in changing. Sounds like we're splitting hairs with this stuff but I've found my answer. All of these oils are extremely high quality and you couldn't go wrong with either the Motul or Belray.


Ive got a question about what the rep said about offroad. What kinda cleaner in the oil is for dusty conditions? The roadrace also is double ester vs single ester in the offroad. Does anyone know what ester does in a oil and how it affects performance?


----------



## CR500 (Aug 13, 2014)

Think I'm going to mix up some Maxima K2 tonight...

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

CR500 said:


> Think I'm going to mix up some Maxima K2 tonight...
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


Never used it? Burn clean? Bad smell?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

Maxima is great oil


----------



## CR500 (Aug 13, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Never used it? Burn clean? Bad smell?



It is just as good as H1R in my opinion..... No problems with Bel-Ray H1R what so ever, it is just not being sold at the cycle shop that is 2 mins walking distance from work and they seem to sell more Maxima oils this year for some reason or another.

Really any of these oils listed are overkill in saws but there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

CR500 said:


> It is just as good as H1R in my opinion..... No problems with Bel-Ray H1R what so ever, it is just not being sold at the cycle shop that is 2 mins walking distance from work and they seem to sell more Maxima oils this year for some reason or another.
> 
> Really any of these oils listed are overkill in saws but there is nothing wrong with that.


I agree. We r reserching motul alil more. Motul tech is confused with our app. Of saws and working with motul engineers in France on specs and differences of the the 2 Motul oils but it will take motul usa a few days. It seems motul usa is confused about the differences in the 2


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Never used it? Burn clean? Bad smell?


Burns real clean and doesn't even really have much of a smell


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Burns real clean and doesn't even really have much of a smell



Sounds like my gasses.....


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Sounds like my gasses.....


Lmbo!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Sounds like my gasses.....


Is that at high rpm or low rpm?


----------



## CR500 (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Sounds like my gasses.....


Randy lets just put this out there for giggles and whatever reason you can think of hahaha...

Would you run a Maxima oil???? I mean why not?



oil threads rule.......


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

I'm trying really hard to stick with this H1R. I see no good reason to switch.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm trying really hard to stick with this H1R. I see no good reason to switch.


Randy lol, don't make me play out a scenario where lets say you were given a choice between other brands except bel ray....


Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm trying really hard to stick with this H1R. I see no good reason to switch.


Just as good as any. Ronnie and myself have talked several times today with motul usa and heck we have them confused!!! Lol! They said they would get with motul engineers in France and see what they recommended for saw applications at working loaded rpm


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 13, 2014)

This just in, Randy has switched to AMSoil 100:1 .... NOT!!!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

1oz h1r
1oz k2
1oz motul
1oz amsoil
1gal fuel( octane to be continued)
1 batch of bananas=
?????????


----------



## CR500 (Aug 13, 2014)

Or Garry goo


Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)




----------



## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm trying really hard to stick with this H1R. I see no good reason to switch.



The smell made me change. I didn't like how you needed more fuel on the tune to keep it down with it either. One of those 066s I built was almost 2 turns out running it. On klotz it was 1.25.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2014)

CR500 said:


> Randy lol, don't make me play out a scenario where lets say you were given a choice between other brands except bel ray....
> 
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.



I like maxima k2. It will be what I go back to after I go through this 2nd liter of motul.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I like maxima k2. It will be what I go back to after I go through this 2nd liter of motul.


Give us reason mdavlee. Im curious


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

Alright Mike.......dammit. 

I just bought: Maxima (22964) Formula K2 2-Stroke Synthetic Premix Racing Oil - 64 oz.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 13, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Give us reason mdavlee. Im curious



The change in tune and the running nose from Belray. I didn't make it through 2 tanks last summer and it was awful. I used maxima 927 also instead of the belray.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 13, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Give us reason mdavlee. Im curious


Smell probably .. a couple oils like HP Ultra and Ams oil bother my sinuses pretty bad lol

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

I have a lot of respect for Mike......as a saw guy....and a friend. If he likes it better.....I have to see why.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

HP Ultra makes my head pound


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> HP Ultra makes my head pound


Kenjax u have used all these oils? Whats ur take?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

Lol....well unlike Mike the smell of H1R doesn't bother me. I've burned many gallons of fuel with each oil and one seems to burn just as clean as the other. H1R has to be ordered at the dealer, Motul is on the shelf as well as Maxima, Maxima is cheaper and less smelly(but none of the smells bother me) so my choice is Maxima K2.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

Well I've got 64 oz coming to see how I like it. 

Damn oil threads.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Does anyone know what it means if flashpoint of k2 is 240°f and flaspoint of motul 800t is 485°f?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)




----------



## redfin (Aug 13, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I have a lot of respect for Mike......as a saw guy....and a friend. If he likes it better.....I have to see why.



I have bugged the crap out of Mike over the last couple months with questions. Advise well taken.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Think Ill give up on oil. Its all the same!!! Lol! Belray does bother my sinuses also


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

If the smells bother you get K2 and be done


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> If the smells bother you get K2 and be done


What about flashpoints? I really dont know what all the #s mean. Is higher flashpoint better or worse?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

I've never even really paid attention to the flash point. No idea what it does or doesn't do but assume a lower flash point would burn or ignite faster?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I've never even really paid attention to the flash point. No idea what it does or doesn't do but assume a lower flash point would burn or ignite faster?


I dont know but it means something important or it wouldnt be stated?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 13, 2014)

OK I've been reading on flashpoints......

Testing is highly varied.....and could mean little.

Just do a little searching.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

Been talking with the techs at Motul. Theres way more involved than smell and cleanliness. How centfrigual forces and tolerances affect film strength of oil and what ratio effects film strength and the oils being formulated with large molecules for high rpm and small molecules for lower rpm, etc , etc!!! Way over my head. I find it interesting to research these things and why they work. Part of the saw and interesting to me


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 13, 2014)

Different Motul Tech said the main difference with Motul off-road and road racing was duration of rpms. He did say the off-road (motocross application) would be closer to use in a saw than the road racing oil.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 13, 2014)

Higher flashpoints are a good thing. It's the temperature at which the oil can ignite or burn/breakdown. Once the temperature reaches flash point no more protection. I doubt a chainsaw will reach 240+ without an engine malfunction. Not sure of internal engine operating temps of chainsaws....I'll take the extra insurance of a higher flashpoint.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

The flash point is for the oil and only the oil, once its mixed with fuel the flash point is gonna change


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

Im not gonna really worry about it


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Im not gonna really worry about it


I find it interesting. Its known that ethanol is worse than non ethanol? All oils arent equal. Why not truly research instead of saying it is what it is ?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 13, 2014)

I believe oils are different in makeup and some are better than others but if no one really cares to discuss octanes or oil lets just not worry about it , shut the thread down and move on


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 13, 2014)

CR500 said:


> Think I'm going to mix up some Maxima K2 tonight...
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I like that Idea,,, of mixing stuff,,, My favorite is Ice, Glenfiddich single malt and a slash of well water,,, but not too much water!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 13, 2014)

I believe if im using a high end synthetic oil regardless of the flash point its gonna be ok. Pro MX race teams use Maxima K2 and them bikes get run a hell of a lot harder than i can run a chain saw. But those bikes get torn down and rebuilt all the time so IDK..K2 is my oil of choice.


----------



## hoeyrd2110 (Aug 13, 2014)

man i've been away for a while....but i sure picked a good thread to walk back in on. i love me a good oil thread

suprised no one brought up elf oil. i add a .5 oz of HTX with 3.5 oz of marine synthetic for my saws and such


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

Marine synthetic? Probably what swamp loggers use.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 14, 2014)

All of the oils currently mentioned are fine. They are designed for much more torturous applications than most saws, and will all burn clean and protect great (they're chemically very similar BTW). These threads are great, lots of knowledgeable folks around, but I swear these saws will run just fine with good oil film and no excessive carbon on the Husky semi synthetic low smoke stuff at lowes (that stuff actually smells kinda good BTW). Pick any bike oil you want, and it'll work great. Bed time, good night to allay'all


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 14, 2014)

And with all this talk about the oil to use, no one has mentioned the best ratio. Is the ratio, at some point, a trade off between lubrication and running clean, and does it vary based on the specific oil? (In other words, one size [ratio] may not fit all products).


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Right now we are just working with motul tech on the 2 oils and which would be better in a saw and why. They wont give us an anwser other than neither oil is made for a saw and they wont recommend either. Robert(tech) at Motul headquarters in California said give us a few days to talk with engineering and France and we will see what they recommend and say about the formulation for saws. Ill ask about flashpoint and firepoint. Looks like they are leaning alil more toward the offroad but still not sure. Motul actually has an oil for chainsaws not available here in the US


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

Lucas semi synthetic works fine also. Milling will show you how annoying an oil is when you burn 40 oz of fuel in 2 cuts and only move a 10'. Lots of oils that I didn't think were bad cutting wood were awful when using them that way. I always try to get the log set up with the breeze to my back but it doesn't always work.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Lucas semi synthetic works fine also. Milling will show you how annoying an oil is when you burn 40 oz of fuel in 2 cuts and only move a 10'. Lots of oils that I didn't think were bad cutting wood were awful when using them that way. I always try to get the log set up with the breeze to my back but it doesn't always work.



Good morning Mike
That's what they make big azzed fans for,,, just sayin!!!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> Good morning Mike
> That's what they lake big azzed fans for,,, just sayin!!!



Hard to carry all of that in the woods sometimes. I mean I already bring a lounge chair and micro fridge


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

yeah I can see your point,,,,, get a small High efficiency one!!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Ive read alil on the flashpoint this morning and it can be a 2 edged sword it appears. Higher flashpoints in 2t oils resist igniting as easily as a lower flashpoint and if operating application doesnt call for higher temps then a higher flashpoint oil is actually less efficient at burning the oil off kinda like octane effects how a fuel burns and whether u burn it completely or just wasting it out the exhaust. Same with oil, using a higher flashpoint oil if not needed is hurting performance instead of helping. The k2 flashpoint is probably a better choice from that information in a saws application than a oil at 2x the flashpoint


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Also to consider if choosing oil by flashpoint is flashpoint isnt the point that the oil burns thats the firepoint? Flashpoint is the tempertaure that vapors from the oil will ignite and burn off on the cylinder walls and not the actual oil itself burning?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

Randy if you want some motul I can send you a pint or so to try.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Randy if you want some motul I can send you a pint or so to try.


 Yeah I can also!!! But I would rather Bring IT!!!!!!!!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> Yeah I can also!!! But I would rather Bring IT!!!!!!!!



Well I don't want to interrupt a day of work for him.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

My head is hurting from this thinking!! Lol. So far I think viscosity index in choosing oil for our application would be a factor for determining protection level. Its the rating given to oils to resist change in viscosity(thickness) of a given oil at temperature. I also think the higher flashpoint oils impede ignition and will result in an uncomplete burn and waste of oil out the exhaust. Looking at the specs of the oils the maxima k2 seems to be more in line of max protection in viscosity index # and lower flashpoints that are more in line of the operating temps in our saw that will ignite more readily for a more complete burn and still have max viscosity protection. My 2 cents only


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

Just mixed 2 gallons


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I believe oils are different in makeup and some are better than others but if no one really cares to discuss octanes or oil lets just not worry about it , shut the thread down and move on



Oh hell no.......

I've learned more about fuels and oils over the last few days than I need to know about oil and fuels. 



KG441c said:


> Ive read alil on the flashpoint this morning and it can be a 2 edged sword it appears. Higher flashpoints in 2t oils resist igniting as easily as a lower flashpoint and if operating application doesnt call for higher temps then a higher flashpoint oil is actually less efficient at burning the oil off kinda like octane effects how a fuel burns and whether u burn it completely or just wasting it out the exhaust. Same with oil, using a higher flashpoint oil if not needed is hurting performance instead of helping. The k2 flashpoint is probably a better choice from that information in a saws application than a oil at 2x the flashpoint



Good stuff again.........but I thought you were done with this. 



mdavlee said:


> Randy if you want some motul I can send you a pint or so to try.



No Mike......but thanks. I'm gonna try this K2.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> My head is hurting from this thinking!! Lol. So far I think viscosity index in choosing oil for our application would be a factor for determining protection level. Its the rating given to oils to resist change in viscosity(thickness) of a given oil at temperature. I also think the higher flashpoint oils impede ignition and will result in an uncomplete burn and waste of oil out the exhaust. Looking at the specs of the oils the maxima k2 seems to be more in line of max protection in viscosity index # and lower flashpoints that are more in line of the operating temps in our saw that will ignite more readily for a more complete burn and still have max viscosity protection. My 2 cents only


If the inside of your muffler isn't covered with oil and you're not fouling your plug you're good. I don't think I'm losing power with Motul compared to Stihl Ultra. I'm gaining! lol
Guess this will be another test. Stihl Ultra vs Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. I bet there will be NO difference in cutting speed.
The factory 2-cycle oil, like Stihl Ultra, is designed for FACTORY saws. Lab testing on stihl ultra oil are on STOCK SAWs. Specialized oils, like Motul 800, are tested on modified/specialized engines. Most of us aren't running factory saws. My rpms on my factory saw were set at 12480 and the compression was probably on or around 150psi. My rpms are now 13800 and my compression is 200+. A modified engine needs a specialized oil just like modified motocross engines need it. Factory engines....factory oil. Specialized/modified engines....specilaized/modified oil. Just like an octane test I did...and what this thread was originally about. Factory saws...factory average octane. Specialized saws....specialized fuel.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> If the inside of your muffler isn't covered with oil and you're not fouling your plug you're good. I don't think I'm losing power with Motul compared to Stihl Ultra. I'm gaining! lol
> Guess this will be another test. Stihl Ultra vs Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. I bet there will be NO difference.
> The factory 2-cycle oil, like Stihl Ultra, is designed for FACTORY saws. Lab testing on stihl ultra oil are on STOCK SAWs. Specialized oils, like Motul 800, are tested on modified/specialized engines. Most of us aren't running factory saws. My rpms on my factory saw were set at 12480 and the compression was probably on or about 150psi. My rpms are now 13800 and my compression is 200+. A modified engine needs a specialized oil just like modified motocross engines need it. Factory engines....factory oil. Specialized/modified engines....specilaized/modified oil. Just like an octane I did...and this thread was originally about. Factory saws...factory average octane. Specialized saws....specialized fuel.


Just because it has a higher flashpoint or cost more doesnt mean its gonna perform or protect any better for our particular application. The K2 specs line up more for saws


----------



## redfin (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441 said:


> I believe oils are different in makeup and some are better than others but if no one really cares to discuss octanes or oil lets just not worry about it , shut the thread down and move on



No way man, I have very much enjoyed this thread. One great thing about a topic in forum, no likey no clickey.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Just because it has a higher flashpoint or cost more doesnt mean its gonna perform or protect any better for our particular application. The K2 specs line up more for saws


 YOu saw the inside of my engine after running Motul 800 off-road. Proof is in the pudding.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> YOu saw the inside of my engine after running Motul 800 off-road. Proof is in the pudding.[/QUOTE
> no doubt the h1r and motul burns extremely clean butbId be willing to bet the k2 will protect just as good in our saws, just as clean, and will burn more efficiently


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Just because it has a higher flashpoint or cost more doesnt mean its gonna perform or protect any better for our particular application. The K2 specs line up more for saws


 YOu may NEVER get the answer or test results for the "perfect" or "best" 2-cycle oil. Use a proven oil, like these experienced AS members are saying (K2 - Motul - H1R), and be happy. You'll never find "the best". They're ALL extremely good oils.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

The closest thing we have to a consumer report for oils are experienced AS members results and determining the oils JASO rating.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

So.

Ron.......you are sold on Motul 800 Off Road.

Keith is sold on K2. As is Mike.

I've been using H1R for a couple of years and never thought about a reason to switch.

Now after looking at flash points, thinking about the need to re-tune, and the way the smell bothers some people. I'm gonna try K2.

I do believe that this Belray bothers Jon's sinuses.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> So.
> 
> Ron.......you are sold on Motul 800 Off Road.
> 
> ...


After seeing k2 flashpoint and motul 2x flashpoint I knew Maxima wasnt making half as a good a oil. I read half the night on flashpoints and the higher flashpoint will protect better in extreme conditions but will imped combuation efficiency in our application. Thats my take


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 14, 2014)

Does castor smell different than ester ? i have an old jug of 927 still from the 250r ,the 927 is what my engine builder had me run in the water cooled 2 stroke ,will the cator work in air cooled ok ?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

K2 specs say it will protect as good according to viscosity index #s and will ignite more readily and efficiently according to specs for our application


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Does castor smell different than ester ? i have an old jug of 927 still from the 250r ,the 927 is what my engine builder had me run in the water cooled 2 stroke ,will the cator work in air cooled ok ?



It leaves ugly deposits.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

Still confused.....

Keith.......which oil do you think is better?

H1R
K2
Motul


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Still confused.....
> 
> Keith.......which oil do you think is better?
> 
> ...


For our application and the studying of oil basics and what specs matter the most in our app? Maxima k2 no doubt


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

That's my take on it as well from everything I studied last night. 

Damn you guys and your oil threads. 

Seriously........thanks for helping an old fart glean a new understanding.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Well I don't want to interrupt a day of work for him.


 
Good Post Mike, Sounds like you know me!!!!!




Mastermind said:


> So.
> 
> Now after looking at flash points, thinking about the need to re-tune, *and the way the smell bothers some people. I'm gonna try K2.
> 
> I do believe that this Belray bothers Jon's sinuses*.


 
You know Randall as I have become to know you better over the last few yr.s That is not surprising that you look after Jon the way you do!!! Just dont let him put any of that K2 mix in the NOS Homie!!!!! he has setting on display!!!!


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> So.
> 
> Ron.......you are sold on Motul 800 Off Road.
> 
> ...


Randy I'm staying with 800 off-road not only from experience but also comparing lab results. I think H1R is a very good oil....that would be my 2nd choice out of the three. Motul 800 off-road has superior lab results over the other two. I have a co-worker that use to be in the oil manufacturing/blending business for over 20 years. I just had him review the limited data for these oils and he chose Motul 800. He thought I was crazy using that extreme of an oil in a chainsaw. He use to blend 2-cycle oils for Husky and Stihl.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Does castor smell different than ester ? i have an old jug of 927 still from the 250r ,the 927 is what my engine builder had me run in the water cooled 2 stroke ,will the cator work in air cooled ok ?



That's what DC runs in his saws. If it's good enough for him it should work for us. I've used it before last year and have some left to maybe mix a couple gallons. If any one wants to trade a liter of motul 800 for a liter of K2 I'm game.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> After seeing k2 flashpoint and motul 2x flashpoint I knew Maxima wasnt making half as a good a oil. I read half the night on flashpoints and the higher flashpoint will protect better in extreme conditions but will imped combuation efficiency in our application. Thats my take


 We're producing as much compression and rpms as a motocross/grandprix motorcycle! These aren't factory saws we're running.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Question: If a ported saw has a mm and breaths better and ports increased for more fuel and OIL, will it run hotter or cooler than a stock saw?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

Cooler


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Cooler


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

These arent 1/4 mile dragsters on alcohol. They r woods ported saws with increased compression and ports optimized for increased fuel and air flow


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Randy I'm staying with 800 off-road not only from experience but also comparing lab results. I think H1R is a very good oil....that would be my 2nd choice out of the three. Motul 800 off-road has superior lab results over the other two. I have a co-worker that use to be in the oil manufacturing/blending business for over 20 years. I just had him review the limited data for these oils and he chose Motul 800. He thought I was crazy using that extreme of an oil in a chainsaw. He use to blend 2-cycle oils for Husky and Stihl.



So K2 comes in third? 

****.......I just ordered 64oz of it.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> So K2 comes in third?
> 
> ****.......I just ordered 64oz of it.



Oh well. I'm going to use it since it's the least offensive to my sinuses. I will say motul leaves a nice coating on the inside at 32:1 while milling.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

Mike......when you send some jugs, send a pint of Motul. I'll send back some K2 when I send back the jugs.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Doea


mdavlee said:


> Oh well. I'm going to use it since it's the least offensive to my sinuses. I will say motul leaves a nice coating on the inside at 32:1 while milling.


Does the k2?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Doea
> Does the k2?



Yes it does. The best as far as a film on the inside I've used is R50. It's not the cleanest burning but it's had the best on the inside when I took a peek. 



Mastermind said:


> Mike......when you send some jugs, send a pint of Motul. I'll send back some K2 when I send back the jugs.



Sure will.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

K2 for me


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Look at the viscosity index , which is the most important spec in determining friction resistance, and tell me between thoso 3 oils which one compares


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

VISCOSITY INDEX
MOTUL 800 OFFROAD 135
K2 140


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

Amsoil Dominator viscosity index is 145 and Saber is 147 and have lower flash points so are they better than K2?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

Check this out Keith


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Amsoil Dominator viscosity index is 145 and Saber is 147 and have lower flash points so are they better than K2?


Id say close . Id be willing to bet if u take the same saw and used motul 800 at 32 to1 and then used k2 at 32 to1 one saw will will produce more energy than the other. Amsoil just didnt burn clean for me. I have 2 quarts of saber that I use in the weedeater


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Check this out Keith


Saw it last night but higher flashpoint is only beneficial in extreme conditions which we arent even close to


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

I have a lot of oil for dirtbikes,snowmobiles,ATV,saw,***.....i'll line em and take a pic for you


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Google what most important spec for abrasion resistance is in oil then goggle specs for motul and k2


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

I think viscosity index is most important in determing protection level and that too much flashpoint in a application where it isnt needed is gonna hinder ignition and running that high a flashpoint oil at 32 to1 is only gonna worsen the condition. That should anwser ur question from yesterday Mustang Mike. I think k2 mixed at 32 to1 with its lower flashpoint is gonna make the most energy and at its viscosity index of 140 is gonna protect better than motul 800 in our application. In an extreme high temp application the motul and h1r will be better


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Im throughly convinced the highest flashpoint is the incorrect way to pick oil


----------



## CR500 (Aug 14, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Mike......when you send some jugs, send a pint of Motul. I'll send back some K2 when I send back the jugs.


You still going to try it.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Until Id see different on a dyno to prove high flashpoint oil was making more power ill stick to common sense and run K2


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 14, 2014)

I remember starting a thread a year back asking if anybody knew of an oil that didn't work well (when mixed properly). If I remember right, a few of the guys felt some oils left too much carbon, but nobody named an oil they had seen a pattern of failure with


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Id say close . Id be willing to bet if u take the same saw and used motul 800 at 32 to1 and then used k2 at 32 to1 one saw will will produce more energy than the other. Amsoil just didnt burn clean for me. I have 2 quarts of saber that I use in the weedeater



Is the AMSoil clean (& safe) at a diff ratio?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

I've used Dominator and Saber at 40:1 and both were pretty clean....they did smoke a bit when first started but no smoke at all after about a minute


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 14, 2014)

The most important factor in using Dominator is the denominator.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 14, 2014)

Interesting, Keith though it did not run clean at 50:1. I will have to give it a try.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

If a saw isn't tuned right no oil will burn clean...and im not saying Keith can't tune a saw im just saying in general.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Interesting, Keith though it did not run clean at 50:1. I will have to give it a try.


I used Saber for about 2 year and never had a problem with carbon....the top of the piston was a little brown but just wiped off nothing hard or that needed scraping to get off.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

I take that back Mike it was 36:1 i had the 3.5oz bottles and i mixed with 1 gallon


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> If a saw isn't tuned right no oil will burn clean...and im not saying Keith can't tune a saw im just saying in general.


Ported 261 at 14000 rpm amsoil saber 50 to 1. 30 minutes of running and the top of piston look like ur 362 did mustang. I ran amsoil in outboard drag motors and never had a problem but also ran omc engine tuner and yamaha ring free with the amsoil.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 14, 2014)

I wonder if the M-tronics can sense a different oil. I mean sometimes my 441 would have that chain spinning at idle issue when I was running Bel-Ray but only once in a while. Maybe it was trying to idle high enough so it did not foul out??? IDK 

With K2 it does not seem to do it just food for thought. I hear H1R takes different tuning

If I were stranded in a forest with a ported saw and was given a choice between HP Ultra and H1R I still would take H1R. Nothing wrong with H1R 
Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

From what Im seeing in the viscosity index between Motul, belray, k2 I agree all 3 will protect equal in our application. K2 has the highest at 140 of the 3 which can be seen the their website. The part that has me stumped is why Maxima made their flashpoint 1/2 of Motul and Belray? If u goggle high flashpoints in oils at standard operating temperature where the high flashpoint is irrelevant like in our saws I think its clear why k2 doesnt have a high flashpoint


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 14, 2014)

This stuff is da chit ......


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> This stuff is da chit ......


Lmbo!!


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 14, 2014)

I heard from a reliable source that that stuff was only good for big bore saws.

So what is UR mix ratio?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

The last thing i want out in the woods is something to attract the bears


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

That banana oil would attract a monkey. That could be good or bad and depends on whether he brought his XB model foredom grinder with him!!!! Lol!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 14, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I heard from a reliable source that that stuff was only good for big bore saws.
> 
> So what is UR mix ratio?



Is only ok to use in Mastermind saws with xb mod (x-tra banannas) 4 oz per gallon has worked for me in the past


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> This stuff is da chit ......




Hello


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)




----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

CR500 said:


> I wonder if the M-tronics can sense a different oil. I mean sometimes my 441 would have that chain spinning at idle issue when I was running Bel-Ray but only once in a while. Maybe it was trying to idle high enough so it did not foul out??? IDK
> 
> With K2 it does not seem to do it just food for thought. I hear H1R takes different tuning
> 
> ...



More than likely with belray it was needing more fuel. I seen a big difference in tune with it.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 14, 2014)

I was thinking the same thing Mike......


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ported 261 at 14000 rpm amsoil saber 50 to 1. 30 minutes of running and the top of piston look like ur 362 did mustang. I ran amsoil in outboard drag motors and never had a problem but also ran omc engine tuner and yamaha ring free with the amsoil.


I've run Golden Spectro for outboard Drag mtrs. back in the mid 90's In our DSRA 1400 lb. class Modified Mercury 300 Drag with good success... and then we switched to and currently still run Klotz R-50 Techniplate,, always @ 32:1 with all of them... I have to agree with Mike About the superior oiled coating on motor internals brg.s/crank/rods/wristpins piston as very very good lubricity. If your tune is a little fat you do get a bit of carbon/ash on the piston crown but nothing that was of concern, We did break a motor last week before the Farmerville, LA race during testing but it was a mechanical issue and not oil related

Always ran either Castrol W/Bean oil, Bel Ray or Klotz W/bean oil in our air cooled 100 CC Yamaha piston ported kart motors and my YZ 250 air cooled Moto-X bike with the same good results... and did I mention how good it smells with a little Sunoco racing gasoline


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

460 piston with R50. I started cleaning it off and snapped a picture first. It had probably 4-5 gallons of R50 and then a couple gallons of motul 800 after. The motul was cleaning some of that off.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

I think belray, motul, and k2 all burn really clean and protect to the max. My question still is how readily do each ignite with different flashpoints. Randy u studied it last night. I think the lower flashpoints ignite and burn much better


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

I wonder which oil Ryan Vilapoto used in his Kawasaki factory 450f to win the World 2014 Supercross Series?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

I have Saber,dominator,927,K2,H1R,MC-1,800,R50,Benol,and Ipone


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Bingo!!! Maxima K2!! It will work for me


----------



## CR500 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I wonder which oil Ryan Vilapoto used in his Kawasaki factory 450f to win the World 2014 Supercross Series?



MAXIMA!!!!! 

Still wish Reedy was a Bel-Ray rider though...


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I wonder which oil Ryan Vilapoto used in his Kawasaki factory 450f to win the World 2014 Supercross Series?


Maxima Pro Plus


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Maxima Pro Plus


Maxima k2


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Maxima k2


Just read it


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

2 stroke oil in a 4 stroke? A 450f is a 4 stroke


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> 2 stroke oil in a 4 stroke? A 450f is a 4 stroke


Maybe he endorsed the k2? Not sure . His picture with a big k2 bottle grinning in the camera!!! Lol


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I think belray, motul, and k2 all burn really clean and protect to the max. My question still is how readily do each ignite with different flashpoints. Randy u studied it last night. I think the lower flashpoints ignite and burn much better


I've been running Stihl Ultra in my saws lately cause I got a really good deal on about 1/2 a gallon for free in the spring but it is nearly gone so I got some Motul 800 2T on the way should be here tomorrow. Got a couple of big Live oak stumps to flush cut and grind for tomorrow afternoon and a couple of small ones for Saturday, I will let you all know what I think...

I have 2, 1/2 cases of Mobil 1 2T Racing oil do they still post all the flash point stuff on it. I do know it smells better than the Ultra to me


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

What is pro plus? Crankcase oil maybe thats what it was. I was just glancing through through the magazine and caught the maxima!! Lol! My bad


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

pro plus is synthetic 4 stroke oil 10w30


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> pro plus is synthetic 4 stroke oil 10w30


Ok my bad


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

Im sure he did use K2 when he was riding a 2 stroke


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Im sure he did use K2 when he was riding a 2 stroke


This is what I saw!! Dang I wanted it to be k2!!!lol


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

I should have known that Kenjax as I raced bikes. Last bike was a crf450f. My favorite bike was a yz250 but I ran Honda hp2 in that bike. Very good oil. Also ran belray mc1. Smoked and smelly as heck!!!


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 14, 2014)

I'm sure the others are as good, but h1r smells bad but works good. 32:1, running hard on the rich side, zero deposits, and a better oil film than the deep water horizon


----------



## CR500 (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> This is what I saw!! Dang I wanted it to be k2!!!lolView attachment 363538


Mitch Payton swears by 927 in 2 strokes...


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 14, 2014)

927 is awesome oil i use it in my dirt bike with VP 110


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

Here's a piston skirt with motul.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a piston skirt with motul.


Thats some wear! Is that milling?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Thats some wear! Is that milling?



It looks like it's wore more than it is. I couldn't get the lines to show horizontal and the oil on the skirt.


----------



## dl5205 (Aug 14, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> ....better oil film than the deep water horizon....



Funny. Bad, but Funny.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 14, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a piston skirt with motul.





mdavlee said:


> It looks like it's wore more than it is. I couldn't get the lines to show horizontal and the oil on the skirt.



Wow I can tell you've been milling with that 288 saw,,,, I must say it certainly looks like the Motul is doing a good job, as the piston looks really clean and nicely coated with lube!!!! thanks for posting that up


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

Mdavlee does the k2 coat that well and stay clean that well?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 14, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> Wow I can tell you've been milling with that saw,,,, I must say it certainly looks like the Motul is doing a good job, as it looks really clean and nicely coated with lube!!!! thanks for posting that up



It's been used some. The machine lines are still all there except where it has those light scratches. A gallon or so of fuel through it so far I guess. I haven't had it long and the 088 does almost all the milling work. I don't know what scratched it vertical on the intake side. I cleaned up that cylinder on the exhaust side. The intake didn't have anything on it.



KG441c said:


> Mdavlee does the k2 coat that well and stay clean that well?



It coats that good from peeking in the ports. I don't know about the piston tops since a lot of them from last fall had run on castor and had some build up. That was a fresh piston not long ago so I thought I'd pull it down and delete the base gasket since squish was .048" with a gasket.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 14, 2014)

Here's the top of a rich running 32:1 H1r piston top. The brownish stuff just wipes off BTW


The B on the piston is short for BelRay!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 14, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Here's the top of a rich running 32:1 H1r piston top. The brownish stuff just wipes off BTW
> View attachment 363556
> 
> The B on the piston is short for BelRay!


Nice!!


----------



## big t double (Aug 14, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I'm sure the others are as good, but h1r smells bad but works good. 32:1, running hard on the rich side, zero deposits, and a better oil film than the deep water horizon


I pretty much enjoy every one of your post.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 14, 2014)

big t double said:


> I pretty much enjoy every one of your post.


You are a man of rare good taste! Thanks


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2014)

Pro bike riders will run whatever oil that pays them the most money for run it. Don't go off what the guy that got the championship as the oil that won it


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 15, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Pro bike riders will run whatever oil that pays them the most money for run it. Don't go off what the guy that got the championship as the oil that won it



A man who understands how it works!!!!!!


----------



## treesmith (Aug 15, 2014)

What's the opinion on mobil 1 synthetic racing 2t


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

treesmith said:


> What's the opinion on mobil 1 synthetic racing 2t



Good stuff but we can't get it here.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 15, 2014)

I wonder why they quit selling it here


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Motul 800t, Amsoil, Maxima, BelRay???opcorn:


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 15, 2014)

How about Maxima Super M its an ester synthetic blend  this stuff really drives you nuts doesn't it?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

I like to know how things work. Dont think each company gives miscibility and gives the spec which would determine how much of the oil we are seeing left behind on our internals are left on the surfaces to actually do their job before ignition occurs and the combustion process starts.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> How about Maxima Super M its an ester synthetic blend  this stuff really drives you nuts doesn't it?



I may try some. The local shop doesn't have k2. They have super m and 927.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

I still have the question for motul tech and maxima tech today in asking about the flashpoint and how readily it reacts to ignition in direct relation to rating of flashpoint. That will be in awhile as Im fixing to hit the woods and fire up the ole Stihl and smell the smelly BelRay


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I still have the question for motul tech and maxima tech today in asking about the flashpoint and how readily it reacts to ignition in direct relation to rating of flashpoint. That will be in awhile as Im fixing to hit the woods and fire up the ole Stihl and smell the smelly BelRay



Well ask about super M while you're at it.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Im fixing to hit the woods and fire up the ole Stihl and smell the smelly BelRay


I spoke with the belray rep. He said their oil was great and all other oils were crap. Interestingly, they put the Bad Smelling stuff in there as a safety feature to let you know immediately if there is straight gas in the engine. Same deal as the natural gas stuff.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 15, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Pro bike riders will run whatever oil that pays them the most money for run it. Don't go off what the guy that got the championship as the oil that won it


********. There is no way a pro athlete would ever use or endorse a product just for money


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Well ask about super M while you're at it.


Will do


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Will do



Thanks. I may pick some up just to see. I'm going to send randy some of my motul and I want to get back to something else any way.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I spoke with the belray rep. He said their oil was great and all other oils were crap. Interestingly, they put the Bad Smelling stuff in there as a safety feature to let you know immediately if there is straight gas in the engine. Same deal as the natural gas stuff.


All their oils have always smelled 
like crap! H1r excellent but it irratates my sinuses and stinks to high hell and back


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

I have a very sensitive nose (or I thought I did) and can't smell the Belray at all.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I have a very sensitive nose (or I thought I did) and can't smell the Belray at all.


They need banana smell in it


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> ********. There is no way a pro athlete would ever use or endorse a product just for money



I agree with you on most stuff, but not this one. What ever team signs a pro biker (w/pedals), that is the bike they ride, and they have the same pack of endorsements, and there is no sport (to my knowledge) where the piece of equipment (the bike) is more important to your performance.

They change teams quite frequently, often for money, and I sometimes wonder if their performance (or lack thereof) is related to the change.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Interestingly, they put the *Bad Smelling* stuff in there as a safety feature to let you know immediately if there is straight gas in the engine.


Hey, I resemble that remark!


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 15, 2014)

You guys have already surpassed me in oil knowledge. However, here's the way I look at it. The very best and most advanced lubricants in the world are made from an ester base. All of the oils in discussion here are ester based. I have used all of them and would do so again without a second thought. I would say to use which ever one tickles your fancy, is easier to get, or that you can get the best price on.

Now, I have been enjoying this discussion. I do like a good technical oil thread, believe it or not! Something that hasn't been mentioned is that ester based oils have a natural tendency to create rust. Some, our maybe all, of these oils have additives to counter act that. I would like to see that confirmed. To me, that would be more important than which of these excellent oils has the ideal viscosity or flash point.

BTW, Maxima Castor 927 is all I ever ran in my built Banshee. I have some left over than I run in my piped 390XP.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> It's been used some. The machine lines are still all there except where it has those light scratches. A gallon or so of fuel through it so far I guess. I haven't had it long and the 088 does almost all the milling work. I don't know what scratched it vertical on the intake side. I cleaned up that cylinder on the exhaust side. The intake didn't have anything on it.
> 
> It coats that good from peeking in the ports. I don't know about the piston tops since a lot of them from last fall had run on castor and had some build up. That was a fresh piston not long ago so I thought I'd pull it down and delete the base gasket since squish was .048" with a gasket.



To clarify I was just looking at the amount of grunge on the crankcase for the milling comment I posted (plus I remember an earlier post where you stated about how quickly the 288 consumed a tank of fuel while milling) 

In MHO your piston looks great to me I can only surmise that the rest of the rotating assembly is equally protected. I've gotten those vertical lines on some of my builds before in fact my favorite 046 has had one on the intake side skirt since day one on a fresh port job/new meteor piston top-end overhaul and hasn't changed in 3yrs. (3rd place saw @ Terry's 046/460 build off in Oliver springs)
I'm just happy to see the Motul does that good a job especially since I just bought two 4 L jugs


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 15, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder why they quit selling it here


Seems I read and article by Exxon/Mobil shortly after or just before dropping that product line because the sales volume didn't garner enough market share to make the R&D worthwhile for that Goliath to compete with David!!! (all the other small market MC lube folks getting a bunch of the sales) I'm sure the Mobil bean counters killed it!!!! I just checked my inventory last night and I have 9 quarts left, We had been using it on the nephew's 125cc KTM Moto-X bike but he is looking to upgrade to a bigger 4 stroke machine. The Eurasian market world still uses lots of 2 stroke stuff,,, the flipping EPA/tree huggers are doing their best to kill it here,,, Grrrrrrrr,  don't let me get started


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> To clarify I was just looking at the amount of grunge on the crankcase for the milling comment I posted (plus I remember an earlier post where you stated about how quickly the 288 consumed a tank of fuel while milling)
> 
> In MHO your piston looks great to me I can only surmise that the rest of the rotating assembly is equally protected. I've gotten those vertical lines on some of my builds before in fact my favorite 046 has had one on the intake side skirt since day one on a fresh port job/new meteor piston top-end overhaul and hasn't changed in 3yrs. (3rd place saw @ Terry's 046/460 build off in Oliver springs)
> I'm just happy to see the Motul does that good a job especially since I just bought two 4 L jugs



Yeah that stuff gets everywhere. I have seen 9' cuts 20" wide take 2 tanks with a ported 390. The 288 was similar. I get more bad ft sawed with a stick 394 or ported 088 for the same amount of fuel. 

I don't worry about those little lines any more. I've pulled new saws apart and seen that. It doesn't seem to change compression one bit.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

A tendency to rust huh Brad?

You've just given Keith something else to study. 

OK Keith.......which oil has the most beneficial additive package???


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> VISCOSITY INDEX
> MOTUL 800 OFFROAD 135
> K2 140


Mobil 1 2T is 154 [emoji12]


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah that stuff gets everywhere. I have seen 9' cuts 20" wide take 2 tanks with a ported 390. The 288 was similar. I get more bad ft sawed with a stick 394 or ported 088 for the same amount of fuel.
> 
> I don't worry about those little lines any more. I've pulled new saws apart and seen that. It doesn't seem to change compression one bit.


Yeah neither me,,, that 046 of mine is still blowing 215+ and it gets brutalized somewhat similar to milling in flush cutting stumps prior to grinding... I sent Randy a pic of my latest big one,,, I just don't know how to figure out this new PC to save it and post it,,, yes stock saws are much more fuel efficient especially when loaded in extreme duty like we do!!!!

All the more reason to stick with 32:1 or 40:1 premix ratio as a minimum but that is JMHO from many years of 2smoke venues so I stick with what works for me,,, and I don't care what anyone else thinks, after all this has turned into one of the better oil threads that I can remember in a long time,,, and contrary to popular belief I am not to old to learn about new stuff and this thread has been a eye opener,,, and oh yes a stock 394 XP pulls like a tandem axle dump truck!!!! Can you spell GRUNT!!!! LOL!!!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> Yeah neither me,,, that 046 of mine is still blowing 215+ and it gets brutalized somewhat similar to milling in flush cutting stumps prior to grinding... I sent Randy a pic of my latest big one,,, I just don't know how to figure out this new PC to save it and post it,,, yes stock saws are much more fuel efficient especially when loaded in extreme duty like we do!!!!
> 
> All the more reason to stick with 32:1 or 40:1 as a minimum



The last cylinder for a 46 I sold was blowing 205 here for me.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 15, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I agree with you on most stuff, but not this one. What ever team signs a pro biker (w/pedals), that is the bike they ride, and they have the same pack of endorsements, and there is no sport (to my knowledge) where the piece of equipment (the bike) is more important to your performance.
> 
> They change teams quite frequently, often for money, and I sometimes wonder if their performance (or lack thereof) is related to the change.


I honestly cannot believe you are that cynical. Are you seriously telling me that you _don't _think Michael Jordan really loves hanes underwear? That David Beckham _didn't _think that American soccer was the **** and only came here for money? I just don't understand the world you live in. Next you'll be telling us that politicians are only interested in getting re-elected, and aren't actually trying to serve their constituents.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I have a very sensitive nose (or I thought I did) and can't smell the Belray at all.



I noticed the smell more on a saw where the exhaust was on top ,and not the sides ,top mounted exhaust must blow the smell more towards the nose


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I noticed the smell more on a saw where the exhaust was on top ,and not the sides ,top mounted exhaust must blow the smell more towards the nose



I notice it a lot when milling with exhaust that hits the log and bounces back or when the log is low to the ground the 088 is straight out the side.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I notice it a lot when milling with exhaust that hits the log and bounces back or when the log is low to the ground the 088 is straight out the side.


That belray choked me awhile ago like that noodling. Exhaust right against log blowing back


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I notice it a lot when milling with exhaust that hits the log and bounces back or when the log is low to the ground the 088 is straight out the side.



Yes i guess it depends which way you are holding the saw ,falling trees with a wrap handle facing up ,the exhaust is aimed up also on a saw with side mounted exhaust ,Or milling with an alaska mill like you said ,Luckily i am 3-4 feet away from my powerhead with my sawmill so it is not so noticeable .


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Yes i guess it depends which way you are holding the saw ,falling trees with a wrap handle facing up ,the exhaust is aimed up also on a saw with side mounted exhaust ,Or milling with an alaska mill like you said ,Luckily i am 3-4 feet away from my powerhead with my sawmill so it is not so noticeable .



Its not near as bad when cutting wood normally and not milling.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> A tendency to rust huh Brad?
> 
> You've just given Keith something else to study.
> 
> OK Keith.......which oil has the most beneficial additive package???


I should clarify. Ester based oils don't cause rust...they're just not as effective at preventing it. This can be a concern for many of us that don't use our saws regularly.

http://www.gregraven.org/hotwater/oil/


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

I see......

That's a good article BTW.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Talked with Robert at Motul. His opinion was that a lower flashpoint would more readily ignite than a higher but not enough to make a large energy increase to be concerned with. Brad Im calling Maxima in awhile and ask their opinion on flashpoint and why theirs is 1/2 motul and belrays flashpoint and ill ask about the additives package Randy and the rust protection Brad


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Sorry guys just called Maxima but their closed on Friday


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

This thread has corrupted me. 




Would you believe how much material comes out of the uppers on an MS660?????


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> This thread has corrupted me.
> 
> View attachment 363616
> 
> ...


Wow!! Weigh it


----------



## big t double (Aug 15, 2014)

Do all 1122 saws get the bridge ports like that? Or is that set up for a different application...sorry to deviate from the oil discussion.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

I do most two port Stihl engines with those bridge ports.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> This thread has corrupted me.
> 
> View attachment 363616
> 
> ...



Is that all?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

lol


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

FTW.....


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 363624
> 
> 
> FTW.....


Ive used that


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ive used that


It's cheap...


And blue...

What more could a person ask???

I put it in my air compressor too...


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> It's cheap...
> 
> 
> And blue...
> ...


Reddish orange??? Lol


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

No way...
Everyone knows that red oil is crap...
Blue is the way to go for sure...


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Ester!!!.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> This thread has corrupted me.
> 
> View attachment 363616



It has a nice light orange color when ya mix it don't yet???!!!


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 15, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> You guys have already surpassed me in oil knowledge. However, here's the way I look at it. The very best and most advanced lubricants in the world are made from an ester base. All of the oils in discussion here are ester based. I have used all of them and would do so again without a second thought. I would say to use which ever one tickles your fancy, is easier to get, or that you can get the best price on.
> 
> Now, I have been enjoying this discussion. I do like a good technical oil thread, believe it or not! Something that hasn't been mentioned is that ester based oils have a natural tendency to create rust. Some, our maybe all, of these oils have additives to counter act that. I would like to see that confirmed. To me, that would be more important than which of these excellent oils has the ideal viscosity or flash point.
> 
> BTW, Maxima Castor 927 is all I ever ran in my built Banshee. I have some left over than I run in my piped 390XP.



I ran 927 exclusively for a long time. In my Banshee, my CR 125, KTM 250 and also my saws. But I ran out a little while ago (before I got my 441 and 362) and ever since I seen a pic of a 362C-M with Castor 927 ran in it. I have never bought it again. I think its the best smelling oil on the market. Reminds me of race day every time I ran it. Especially when mixed with Cam2 fuel 

But a plastic like deposit on the piston can't be good..  

Carry on...


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

DexterDay said:


> I ran 927 exclusively for a long time. In my Banshee, my CR 125, KTM 250 and also my saws. But I ran out a little while ago (before I got my 441 and 362) and ever since I seen a pic of a 362C-M with Castor 927 ran in it. I have never bought it again. I think its the best smelling oil on the market. Reminds me of race day every time I ran it. Especially when mixed with Cam2 fuel
> 
> But a plastic like deposit on the piston can't be good..
> 
> Carry on...



That deposit isn't the end of the world but I guess if you ran it like that for years it could cause problems later on.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 15, 2014)

What's a racing 100cc 2 stroke make? 25-30hp? We act like our saws (well, Randy and Brad don't) are super high strung and need the ultimate mix, but I'd bet my monkey-logic 394 is pushing out about 9. But I still think it needs the ultimate mix


----------



## CR500 (Aug 15, 2014)

Okay when you look at a viscosity scale of K2 and 927 for example

K2- 140
927- 99

A high viscosity would mean K2 would protect better than 927 in a normal ( ported saw range) temperature scale. 

However lets say the temperature was nearing the flash point ( in some high abuse application) of K2 which is 240 degrees then the 927 which is at 420 degrees would be a better oil for those extreme applications?

Viscosity index of of Motul 800 is 135

Bel-Ray H1R- 121??? I believe?? 

What is the average temperature of a ported saw? anyone ever check?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Good stuff added today!!
I took alil break from researching!! Lol! Cut some firewood and then practiced converting a 16" oregon full comp to square chisel. Yall dont laugh!! Ya right!!! Lol. Hadnt cleaned gullets yet


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 15, 2014)

*Mobil 1 Racing 2T*




Viscosity (ASTM D445)




cSt @ 40 ºC


83

cSt @ 100 ºC


12.7

Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270)


154

Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874)


0.15

Pour Point, ºC (ASTM D97)


-42

Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92)


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 15, 2014)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity_index

Many lubricant applications require the lubricant to perform across a wide range of conditions, for example, automotive lubricants are required to reduce friction between engine components when the engine is started from cold (relative to the engine's operating temperatures) up to 200 °C or 392 °F when it is running. The best oils with the highest VI will remain stable and not vary much in viscosity over the temperature range. This allows for consistent engine performance within the normal working conditions.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

I see a little beak.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I see a little beak.


Randy Im sure theres a couple whatever that is!!! Lol. Just started filing not too long ago


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> What's a racing 100cc 2 stroke make? 25-30hp? We act like our saws (well, Randy and Brad don't) are super high strung and need the ultimate mix, but I'd bet my monkey-logic 394 is pushing out about 9. But I still think it needs the ultimate mix


The biggest difference with our chainsaws is that they do not use a tuned exhaust pipe. For that reason alone, you can't really compare most of our chainsaws with any racing engine. The power output is far greater with a tuned pipe.


----------



## Husqavarna Guy (Aug 15, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 363624
> 
> 
> FTW.....



How is that oil? It has a higher JASO rating than Stihl Ultra!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

And stroke.........we be short strokin........

Everbody knows you ain't gonna make no powar wit a short stroke.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

Has any one tried the super M from maxima? Its real cheap online and I can get some local.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 15, 2014)

Keith, what angle are you filing, and how does it cut?

I steepened the angle a bit on one of my 24" chains, but I have not put it to wood yet.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Has any one tried the super M from maxima? Its real cheap online and I can get some local.


I tried calling Maxima today but they r closed on Fridays. Read on the website about it and says its Ester based with enhanced rust inhibitors and has alil higher flashpoint 280 than k2. Viscosity index 121 is ali lower than k2


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, what angle are you filing, and how does it cut?
> 
> I steepened the angle a bit on one of my 24" chains, but I have not put it to wood yet.


About 40 to 45. Very aggresive. No doubt it blows the full comp away on my 026. I got the rakers alil too low and it pulls in pretty hard.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 15, 2014)

Be careful with that i saw a guy put a 372xp to wood with his drags too low and it ripped the saw right out of his hands.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Thanks for the heads up Kenjax. Its alil too aggresive for my liking. Need to grind teeth back alil below rakes


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 15, 2014)

Sweet how it cuts, isn't it!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Sweet how it cuts, isn't it!


No comparison imo


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 15, 2014)

What file are U using, and how do you like it.


----------



## Flatie (Aug 15, 2014)

Keith and Co....Great thread to say the least! I'm quite similar in a way that i like to research and learn which is a better product and why. 
The question I have KG is it appears Bel-Ray changes the tune somewhat" understandable", yet I haven't heard many people saying the same for Motul 800. I would have assumed the Motul would need the same re-tune if not more when looking at specs.
The Motul 800 has a slight higher rating across the specs which would make it less likely combustible?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Bahco, Save edge , and Vallorbe and all 6 sided. The Vallorbe is the smoothest by far imo


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 15, 2014)

Flatie said:


> Keith and Co....Great thread to say the least! I'm quite similar in a way that i like to research and learn which is a better product and why.
> The question I have KG is it appears Bel-Ray changes the tune somewhat" understandable", yet I haven't heard many people saying the same for Motul 800. I would have assumed the Motul would need the same re-tune if not more when looking at specs.
> The Motul 800 has a slight higher rating across the specs which would make it less likely combustible?



There's almost no change in tune from maxima k2, r50, and motul 800.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Flatie said:


> Keith and Co....Great thread to say the least! I'm quite similar in a way that i like to research and learn which is a better product and why.
> The question I have KG is it appears Bel-Ray changes the tune somewhat" understandable", yet I haven't heard many people saying the same for Motul 800. I would have assumed the Motul would need the same re-tune if not more when looking at specs.
> The Motul 800 has a slight higher rating across the specs which would make it less likely combustible?


Motul tech said today that it was less readily ignitable but not so much that it would make a substantial decrease in energy using the higher flashpoint. I myself havent used the motul but mdavlee has and would know the anwser about the tune


----------



## Flatie (Aug 15, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> There's almost no change in tune from maxima k2, r50, and motul 800.


Any ideas why all these have no change to tune yet the Bel-Ray changes the tune? Additives? I do like the fact the Motul doesn't change the tune. I was set on Bel-Ray but now my cogs are turning haha


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I see a little beak.


A little... There's something else that may be a little too extreme too...
Wanna guess what it is?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

Husqavarna Guy said:


> How is that oil? It has a higher JASO rating than Stihl Ultra!


Good so far...
I was spending way too much on ultra, so I had to try something!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> A little... There's something else that may be a little too extreme too...
> Wanna guess what it is?


No just tell me!!! Lol


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 15, 2014)

Belray seems to "clog" up the h jet a little. It pours like molasses, and that may play a role, but honestly it's not a big deal if you have either one good ear or knowledgeable hands, and a small screwdriver.
This next part will sound bad, and I don't mean it that way, but you square grind amateurs really need to get u'r hands on a mdavlee or tree sling'r square ground chain to see what it's all about


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> About 40 to 45. Very aggresive. No doubt it blows the full comp away on my 026. I got the rakers alil too low and it pulls in pretty hard.





Hedgerow said:


> A little... There's something else that may be a little too extreme too...
> Wanna guess what it is?



I see it too......and is the reason he thinks the rakers are too low.....

Look at the cutter Keith. You'll see what we are talking about.


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

KG441c said:


> No just tell me!!! Lol


Your forward lean is a bit excessive...
Keep that tooth straight up and down, best you can for smoother operation..
Try not to exceed 5 or 6 degrees forward lean...


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Belray seems to "clog" up the h jet a little. It pours like molasses, and that may play a role, but honestly it's not a big deal if you have either one good ear or knowledgeable hands, and a small screwdriver.
> This next part will sound bad, and I don't mean it that way, but you square grind amateurs really need to get u'r hands on a mdavlee or tree sling'r square ground chain to see what it's all about


Gotta start somewhere. It cut really good. Ill take advice and work on it from there if someone will point what I need to do


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Belray seems to "clog" up the h jet a little. It pours like molasses, and that may play a role, but honestly it's not a big deal if you have either one good ear or knowledgeable hands, and a small screwdriver.
> This next part will sound bad, and I don't mean it that way, but you square grind amateurs really need to get u'r hands on a mdavlee or tree sling'r square ground chain to see what it's all about


Not good enough knowin what to do...
Gotta know "why" you doin' it....
Sup Doc???


----------



## KG441c (Aug 15, 2014)

.


Hedgerow said:


> Your forward lean is a bit excessive...
> Keep that tooth straight up and down, best you can for smoother operation..
> Try not to exceed 5 or 6 degrees forward lean...


im lost.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 16, 2014)

Your side plate angle is too steep


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 16, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Not good enough knowin what to do...
> Gotta know "why" you doin' it....
> Sup Doc???


Old and fat. Same as always.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

This a all in one thread!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Im still alil confused. The handle of the file, which way would I move to make angle less steep


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Im still alil confused. The handle of the file, which way would I move to make angle less steep


On a right hand cutter, rotate your file counter clockwise to reduce forward side plate lean..


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

Keith, I think they are referring to your side cutter not being vertical (please correct me if I'm wrong).

See:


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

Don't know if that attachment worked, let me try again:

http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_filing_cb.htm


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

Hey, I never said that I have perfected square file sharpening, but at least I am using it, and it is faster than RS!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Thats why I posted so someone could take a look and correct it


----------



## SquareFile (Aug 16, 2014)

MY head hurts, wtf is the discussion?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 16, 2014)

Here's how mdavlee square moves thru knotty oak


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 16, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> There's almost no change in tune from maxima k2, r50, and motul 800.


I agree I just got my Motul 2T today & switched one of my 044's to it from R-50,,, it was spot on from idle to WOT and seems to smoke/smell less.. made about 6 good cuts and so far I like it....


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Here's how mdavlee square moves thru knotty oak



That 16" chain I did is so aggressive its putting my poor little 026 in a bind. About to suck it right in the cut!!lol. Ill correct the side plate angle


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Dont know if my eyesight is good enough to keep the beak out!! Lol! Need some 20x magnifier glasses


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

I use husqvarna oil on my square half skip chain with no beak ,on a stihl saw with an aftermarket cylinder lubed with h1r at 32 to 1 and have to concour flippie caps too boot


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> That 16" chain I did is so aggressive its putting my poor little 026 in a bind. About to suck it right in the cut!!lol. Ill correct the side plate angle


Yes.. Decent feed with no pressure, but when some pressure is applied, woah Nellie!!! Bout stall out the saw...


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> I agree I just got my Motul 2T today & switched one of my 044's to it from R-50,,, it was spot on from idle to WOT and seems to smoke/smell less.. made about 6 good cuts and so far I like it....


Where do u get the mobil?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Dont know if my eyesight is good enough to keep the beak out!! Lol! Need some 20x magnifier glasses


File from the outside in


----------



## SquareFile (Aug 16, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I use husqvarna oil on my square half skip chain with no beak ,on a stihl saw with an aftermarket cylinder lubed with h1r at 32 to 1 and have to concour flippie caps too boot


 Thx for clearing it up


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Yes.. Decent feed with no pressure, but when some pressure is applied, woah Nellie!!! Bout stall out the saw...


Alil dangerous


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 16, 2014)

Not sure if its my eyes or yours Keith but i do believe that says Motul not Mobil


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Not sure if its my eyes or yours Keith but i do believe that says Motul not Mobil


Oh ya it does. Our local bike shop carries motul


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

If I had some klotz left I would run test it to see if the tune changed in one of my saws. The only thing I have extra at the house here is maxima 927.

I have filed aggressive enough to stall a 3120 out in a 10x10" before.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> If I had some klotz left I would run test it to see if the tune changed in one of my saws. The only thing I have extra at the house here is maxima 927.
> 
> I have filed aggressive enough to stall a 3120 out in a 10x10" before.
> 
> ...


Mdavlee are these pics of too aggressive or what square should look like? Thanks for posting


----------



## CR500 (Aug 16, 2014)

Could not find much saw operating temp but what I did find it was over 300 degrees of cylinder fin temp. I wonder how internal temp is?

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

CR500 said:


> Could not find much saw operating temp but what I did find it was over 300 degrees of cylinder fin temp. I wonder how internal temp is?
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I was actually discussing this with Ronnie yesterday and was gonna take some readings but my battery was dead in my fluke handgun


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Mdavlee are these pics of too aggressive or what square should look like? Thanks for posting



Those are good ones there.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

Here's a video with that full skip chain. It's a smooth cutting chain for skip. I've had it around a while and only break it out on special occasions. I'm thinking of breaking it down and saving the teeth for a shorter chain.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Dont know if my eyesight is good enough to keep the beak out!! Lol! Need some 20x magnifier glasses



FYI, I believe the Masden website states that a small beak is not a big deal, but moving the corner of the file in the other direction (on the top plate) is.

I think it would be much easier for you to get the angles correct if you started w/square in the first place. Converting round, on your first attempt to file square, is not the easy way to go.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

shawn nolder said:


> MY head hurts, wtf is the discussion?



Discussion of 2 cycle oils, discussion of square file chain, and some occasional humor/sarcasm thrown in. Enjoy!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> FYI, I believe the Masden website states that a small beak is not a big deal, but moving the corner of the file in the other direction (on the top plate) is.
> 
> I think it would be much easier for you to get the angles correct if you started w/square in the first place. Converting round, on your first attempt to file square, is not the easy way to go.



I don't use stock angles so I almost prefer starting with round since its closer to what I file to. This Carlton stuff I got is good but almost impossible to file with out running a round file through first to change the angle from around 15° to 25°


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

What final angle do you use (if it is not a trade secret)? I converted one of my 24" loops to a slightly more aggressive angle (about 40 instead of 45) but have not had a chance to try it out yet. It was extra work!

The Carlton should work very well, I hear it is harder than Oregon. That is very interesting, I could do that rather fast with my hand held diamond sharpener. I generally use a 7/32 size diamond stone in the hand held, is that the right size to use before converting to square?

I love the Stihl Square, but they kill me on the price, and I can't get it by the loop.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 16, 2014)

I've got a roll of Stihl 36RSLH. It a 3/8 semi skip in .063 square. I'll be letting some loops go soon.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

I took some photos of a saw i have been trying to blow up for R&d ,My meteor cylinder ms440 with finger ports added ,running belray h1r 32 to 1 the whole time ,It is tuned to pull a 32 inch bar in doug fir ,the muffler looks overly wet ,but it runs the best this way ,Is this black goo in the muffler anything to worry about ?Is this why H1r smells ? The heavy deposits ?The exhaust port and piston are a lot cleaner than i thought they would be ,I have no idea where the bottom ring is ,just noticed that ,maybe Randy left it out ,i did pull the muffler can on my other hybrid running same fuel ,the can was wet ,but not soaked like this one ,Question would the finger ports be dumping the excess fuel ? i do not want to tune leaner because it loses power with a 32 buried ,i also took a couple chain pics ,looks like Mike posted some before me


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

Now for the chain part ,here is one that was on my saw ,not my best job grinding ,side plate looks like crap in my opinion ,but it has 2 days of cutting on it and still sharp


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

And here is how i hold my flat file when i do not grind ,I have no idea what angle it is but it cuts ok ,I just aim for steep and deep ,I am sure there are other ways to file ,but this angle seems to get the job done ,the bottom of the flat file grazes the tie straps when i hand file also ,Hope this helps the guys starting out to get them going


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

WOW, an aggressive square file grind, and it stays sharp for 2 days!!!!!! Brian I think you need to change over to semi chisel so your chain stays sharp longer, and then you will be more in compliance with OSHA regulations, right now you are just producing too many chips to be environmentally responsible!

Nice job. I changed the angles on one of mine also, partly to avoid those tie straps! Seemed like I was taking too much stock out of them at the factory angle. Would be even worse when the tooth gets smaller. Have not tried it yet, but will keep you posted.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 16, 2014)

Center that damn muffler can up on the exhaust port. Did we leave it that far off? Geezzzzo Flip!!!!! Jon is fired. 

The bottom ring in that top end is gone, because I added a ring locating pin and centered the upper ring over the intake.......the second ring would drop into the intake if centered. 

I wouldn't worry about that spooge in the muffler Brian. 

How many tanks have you put through that saw now prolly?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Center that damn muffler can up on the exhaust port. Did we leave it that far off? Geezzzzo Flip!!!!! Jon is fired.
> 
> The bottom ring in that top end is gone, because I added a ring locating pin and centered the upper ring over the intake.......the second ring would drop into the intake if centered.
> 
> ...



I am not sure how many tanks ,is a bunch an ok answer ? I can't even remember how long since this saw was built now ,the little grooves on the exhaust side of the piston all look new still ,So i believe the oil is protecting it ok ,i will recenter it ,by the clean mark the muffler can by the 1 bolt may have got smacked by something ,As for life on the meteor top end ,I am sure it is right up there with oem on how long it will last .It is much better quality than the nwp kits ebay sells ,They are made in Italy ? if i remember right ?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 16, 2014)

Even the Meteor kits can be a crap shoot. I've got an 044 kit here that looks horrible. With a Meteor kit, you at least know you will get a good piston and rings. 

I think they are cast in Asia, but plated elsewhere....


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> FYI, I believe the Masden website states that a small beak is not a big deal, but moving the corner of the file in the other direction (on the top plate) is.
> 
> I think it would be much easier for you to get the angles correct if you started w/square in the first place. Converting round, on your first attempt to file square, is not the easy way to go.


I figured out rotating the file to keep the side plate perpendicular to the ground. When I saw keeping the edge of the file in corner of the peak and the flat edge of file perpendicular it made sense. Now I can worry about the other angle and play with that. Ill post another pic. when I get the nerve!! Lol


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I don't use stock angles so I almost prefer starting with round since its closer to what I file to. This Carlton stuff I got is good but almost impossible to file with out running a round file through first to change the angle from around 15° to 25°


I started by knocking the curve out of the side tooth with a flat file. Then went with the save edge at a steeper side cutting angle to rough in and switch to Vallrobe which imo is like butter for the finishing. Im finding it easier to use steeper side plate cutting angles than factory to keep the file edge in the corner and the side tooth perpendicular?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> And here is how i hold my flat file when i do not grind ,I have no idea what angle it is but it cuts ok ,I just aim for steep and deep ,I am sure there are other ways to file ,but this angle seems to get the job done ,the bottom of the flat file grazes the tie straps when i hand file also ,Hope this helps the guys starting out to get them going View attachment 363745
> View attachment 363746
> View attachment 363748


That helps!!!! Thanks Mr. FOXX!! LOL


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> That helps!!!! Thank Mr. FOXX!! LOL



On a race chain a little beak is preferred actually ,but in a work chain it will dull fast ,if you hold the corner of the file in the corner of the cutter ,you should get nice even teeth that will last all day if you do not hit dirt ,do not go overboard on the rakers ,.025 is a good depth i have found on square if want a smooth chain ,if go .030 or more the chain will dull faster ,in the stuff i cut actually slower too ,bogs the saw slowing the times down ,you want the saw not to bog ,should be able to dog in falling a tree and keep the rpm's up


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Does anyone know who makes the 6 sided file with the longest sides? Is it more preferable to have the edge of side tooth longer or shorter?


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 16, 2014)

I wasn't going to be the first to say something about that off center muff, but as someone who used to ensure that his intake manifold ports lined up with the ports in the head, and then the head ports to the headers ... it wasn't easy! That said, it likely does not effect performance one iota.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Does anyone know who makes the 6 sided file with the longest sides? Is it more preferable to have the edge of side tooth longer or shorter?



Your do not want longer sides more than what the file i showed has ,if holding it right the side plate should be sharpened to where it curves under from looking at the outside of the cutter ,here is a chain done with a 6 sided file ,i normally grind ,but once in a while will break a file out ,gullets are not cleaned out yet in these images


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I wasn't going to be the first to say something about that off center muff, but as someone who used to ensure that his intake manifold ports lined up with the ports in the head, and then the head ports to the headers ... it wasn't easy! That said, it likely does not effect performance one iota.




I will fix it


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

Get into the tie straps a little bit. If you're not a good round filed chain will be faster. I'll square file the chain on the 372 tonight or tomorrow and do before/after videos in the same log.

On the side plate length doesn't matter that much really. As long as the cut is smooth and not fuzzy then its doing its job.


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 16, 2014)

Oh..
You guys and yer fancy angled flat files...

I will say this...
If you want to get comfortable square filing. Take a saw, a chain, and use only one... Square file it... If you dub it, file it... Don't retreat to anything else...
If ya wanna cut wood, ya gotta do it with yer square filed chain...
When that chain is used up and teeth are breaking off, and yer file is dull, you will be pretty comfortable square filing...


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 16, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Oh..
> You guys and yer fancy angled flat files...
> 
> I will say this...
> ...




You ever dull up the one I sent you ?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 16, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> You ever dull up the one I sent you ?


Nope...
It's 115 drive links...
I'm waiting for a special ocaision to break it out...


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm going to sharpen the 20" full skip I used on the 372 tomorrow and get an after video. I'll take a few pictures of it.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Are u gonna do a video sharpening it? Man that would be wonderful


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Are u gonna do a video sharpening it? Man that would be wonderful



I've already got one video of filing a couple teeth on a chain. You want it on the saw or in my chain vise?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Whichever shows the most. I bought a hammerhead bright light today that has 6 leds that has a clamp. U can clamp it on the chainbreak or vise and position the 6 led bar over the tooth . That light and reading glasses make a difference!!! Lol


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Where do u get the mobil?


Motul!!!! Rocky Mountain ATV, Free Shipping on orders over $49.00 I ordered it Tuesday morning, it was Delivered yesterday morning by 11:00 AM $64.00 for a 4 L jug.. this may sound crazy but it really reminds me of Mobil 1 2T Racing,,, same bright red color, similar smell????? gonna mix a fresh gallon of it when I get home and compare them.... 32:1 no less!!!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 16, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Whichever shows the most. I bought a hammerhead bright light today that has 6 leds that has a clamp. U can clamp it on the chainbreak or vise and position the 6 led bar over the tooth . That light and reading glasses make a difference!!! Lol



I'll see if I can get a camera operator tomorrow. You may have to settle for still pictures.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 16, 2014)

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## Flatie (Aug 17, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 363210
> 
> 
> Nice and shiny inside my 660 on Motul 800 at 32:1 with no carbon buildup. Randy did an excellent job on the muffler mod. While idling, sounds like a race car. I love the sound of a Mastermind ported saw in the morning!


Ron,
That is a very clean muffler! How long has it run on Motul? Did you get spooge with Motul ?
If it stays that clean that's impressive. Mdavlee's muffler was a touch dirty. Tempted to try Motul, ive used H1R for 2years.
Imagine the chimp using Motul. Smells like bananas.... Match made in heaven?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Randy needs some shirts now with a monkey working on a chainsaw puttin a banana down the sparkplug hole!!! Lol


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

You fellers ain't right. 

Y'all done talked me into trying Maxima K2........now y'all want me to stuff in Xtra Bananas. 

What's next???????


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 17, 2014)

Just to stir the pot a little bit.........
If you find u'r square ground chain to be a night and day difference from your round chisel (and I'm not talking about a pro-ground race-type chain), then u'r not getting the most out of u'r round filing.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

BULL****!! LOL!! Maybe ur sqaure skills arent up to par?


----------



## CR500 (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> You fellers ain't right.
> 
> Y'all done talked me into trying Maxima K2........now y'all want me to stuff in Xtra Bananas.
> 
> What's next???????


Try the K2 Randy, then stuff in xtra bananas!!! 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 17, 2014)

I've never tried square filing. Last time this debate rolled through, I wanted to get into square sharpening based on the "it's like having a 10cc bigger powerhead, and it never dulls" claims. However, being a student of human nature, I know that a person's perception of "goodness" will consistently add about a 30% "seat of the pants" improvement in how they feel about pretty much anything. Being a cynic, I simply paid Mike a case of beer to make me 2 new square 93dl chains and made a comparison video (as has Mike). I found the difference to be more in feel than performance.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

I've got a very nice modified swing arm grinder........

I normally just round file. 

Like Jon (HuskStihl) said a couple of posts ago......if you can round file very well, then a square chain will not be a day VS night difference. 

That said......a very well filed (or ground) square chain is a very big improvement though.

We did do a comparison video of a stock MS261C with new .325 RS VS a .325 chain that Jon (my son in law) ground. There was a 38% increase in cut speed.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 17, 2014)

Here Randy
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-Manh...e-Car-Motorcycle-ATV-Fuel-Scent-/251280146975

I run Vanilla in my sled in the winter. You would be surprised how many people wonder what I'm burning


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've got a very nice modified swing arm grinder........
> 
> I normally just round file.
> 
> ...


I didn't get quite that on the 3/8 Lowpro.. I got 28% faster over new once I filed it square...


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

I can round file chain to be a good bit faster than new square. If I have time here later I may try to do some videos and stuff for you guys. I'll have to modify my bar to fit on the 372 but it needs it anyway. I think the best I got was 55% faster with a chain I spent 8-10 hours on over a brand new off the roll.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

I ordered some........just for GTGs.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I ordered some........just for GTGs.


Really??? It is just a fad Randy like ported saws


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 17, 2014)

Round chain is just plain dumb.........


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Well I screwed my first chain up!!! Lol! Finally got the sidetooth thing down. All my teeth were different length!! It cut good but alil rough. Need to mess up some more chains I guess


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Well I screwed my first chain up!!! Lol! Finally got the sidetooth thing down. All my teeth were different length!! It cut good but alil rough. Need to mess up some more chains I guess



That happens. Just think it could have been a 36' full comp loop.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Round chain is just plain dumb.........



In this dirty hardwood we end up cutting sometimes, anything but semi chisel is sorta nuts.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Odd thing though is im sharpening the chain on a vise and Im right handed but can sharpen the left hand cutters easier??


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> In this dirty hardwood we end up cutting sometimes, anything but semi chisel is sorta nuts.



If cutting dirty wood with square just cut from the inside out and the chain will stay sharp

Bore in then cut the clean wood first ,chain will stay sharp longer

Also if sharpen the top plate at 10 degrees like ripping Chain ,will stay sharp longer,just will cut slower


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Odd thing though is im sharpening the chain on a vise and Im right handed but can sharpen the left hand cutters easier??



One side will be easier than the other.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm not particularly good at sharpening chains, but even I can make JGX (all I run) much better than fresh outta box.
This sharpening cuts pretty well, and is pretty durable. If I drop my right hand down and to the right just a bit, the speed increases, but the durability declines




With enough powerhead, the chain seems to get better with less cutter left. Seems the further the cutter is from the raker, the bigger bite it'll take at a given raker height, and I'm sure the chips have an easier time exiting out the back. Of course, I own no low-torque screamers, and I'd prolly need to sharpen differently for those if I did


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 17, 2014)

Flatie said:


> Ron,
> That is a very clean muffler! How long has it run on Motul? Did you get spooge with Motul ?
> If it stays that clean that's impressive. Mdavlee's muffler was a touch dirty. Tempted to try Motul, ive used H1R for 2years.
> Imagine the chimp using Motul. Smells like bananas.... Match made in heaven?



I've used nearly a liter of the Motul 800 off-road since the saw was ported. With my 660, I get nearly 40 (actually 38.7) chainsaw tanks with a liter of oil. 
1 liter = 33.8 ozs
660 fuel tank holds 27.9 ozs
4 ozs oil per gallon to get 32:1
33.8/4 = 8.45 gallons
8.45 gallons x 128 (there's 128 ozs to a gallon)
= 1081.6 ozs of fuel
1081.6/27.9 = 38.7 
1 liter will give me 38.7 tanks of fuel at 32:1
If you've ever wondered how many chainsaw tanks you'll get with a liter of oil mixing at 32:1.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 17, 2014)

I just fill the can with gas mix my oil and when its empty......repeat never really tried to figure it out


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

I have some videos and pictures to upload of square filing and then some before after videos. I didn't get a bad gain from just filing the chain. I'll start a new thread shortly.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I have some videos and pictures to upload of square filing and then some before after videos. I didn't get a bad gain from just filing the chain. I'll start a new thread shortly.


Thanks


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Thanks



Still shows 2 hours for the first video. Stupid DSL is slow today.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 17, 2014)

Where does one find a used square grinder?? I've stated before I would like one but as of late I really want one.

I missed out on a Simington 451 yesterday. Patience seems to be the key

The 451 goes for just under a grand new


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 17, 2014)

I've got a 450......Jon loves it.....I've not got time to play with it.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Im gonna have to get a square grinder.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

Craigslist is where I got mine. There was 3 SDM 4s for sale last week.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've got a very nice modified swing arm grinder........
> 
> I normally just round file.
> .
> ...



ARE YOU SURE IT WASN'T 40%?????


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Well I screwed my first chain up!!! Lol! Finally got the sidetooth thing down. All my teeth were different length!! It cut good but alil rough. Need to mess up some more chains I guess


Awe.. That's ok...
Cut with it till it's dull and sorta fix it on the next touch up...
Remember....
This is a marathon...
Not a sprint...


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Anyone ever square file semi chisel?


Hedgerow said:


> Awe.. That's ok...
> Cut with it till it's dull and sorta fix it on the next touch up...
> Remember....
> This is a marathon...
> Not a sprint...


Already started on another . Used my caliper to measure the length of each tooth this time. Kept the side tooth straight . This one has come out much better


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 17, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've got a 450......Jon loves it.....I've not got time to play with it.


Ain't nobody got time fo dat...
Grab a file and growl....


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Anyone ever square file semi chisel?
> 
> Already started on another . Used my caliper to measure the length of each tooth this time. Kept the side tooth straight . This one has come out much better


Bet it was smooth as a baby's ass...
You're all over this stuff...
But on a work chain, I don't mess with doing that.. 
Cause...
Ain't nobody got time fo dat..


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Bet it was smooth as a baby's ass...
> You're all over this stuff...
> But on a work chain, I don't mess with doing that..
> Cause...
> Ain't nobody got time fo dat..


Only done one side. Taking my time and getting each tooth same length and cleaned gullets really good


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

I've never measured cutters on a chain


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I've never measured cutters on a chain


I do!!! Lol! I had the first one all out of wack on the length. Chattered


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 17, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I do!!! Lol! I had the first one all out of wack on the length. Chattered



What did the end if the log look like?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> What did the end if the log look like?


Yup....
Even more important...
Don't file away the most important aspect of the chain...


----------



## KG441c (Aug 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> What did the end if the log look like?


Didnt look?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Yup....
> Even more important...
> Don't file away the most important aspect of the chain...


Which is?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Which is?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 18, 2014)

Lucas semi synthetic is good stuff judging by the coating on the inside of a 7900 I looked in today


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Ive used lucas in 2 stroke dirtbikes. No problems. How does round cut at 35°


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ive used lucas in 2 stroke dirtbikes. No problems. How does round cut at 35°



It will be faster but pulls the chain sideways in the cut more. The more aggressive that top plate gets on round the wider the kerf will be. I don't go over 30° on chisel chain.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Okay I talked with Tim at Maxima Tech Support. He says Maxima uses a lower flashpoint in their oil because it aids in igniting the fuel a bit earlier. They also use long chain molecules with their formulation because it causes the mix to burn a tad longer in the combustion process. This together he said would make a more complete cleaner burn as opposed to higher flashpoint oils. The ester bases stick to the metal surfaces and has excellent film strength and protection . His words were the lower flashpoint would produce more energy that could be seen on a dyno, as compared to higher flashpoints. Anymore technical than that guys and u will have to call Tim at Maxima!! Lol


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

How about the anti oxidant additives?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 18, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Lucas semi synthetic is good stuff judging by the coating on the inside of a 7900 I looked in today


That one has seen some real world use too... Started life on Ultra, last 20 tanks or so were Lucas..
Pics?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 18, 2014)

I didnt snag any. I may pop the muffler off and get one before I contaminate it with motul


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> How about the anti oxidant additives?




Yeah. Did you ask them Keith?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Yes . He was getting me an anwser and gonna call back


----------



## old-cat (Aug 18, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Round chain is just plain dumb.........



Dislike! Dislike! Dislike! I have my own method for round filing and it's faster cutting than out of the box STIHL square. AND it's EASY!!!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

old-cat said:


> Dislike! Dislike! Dislike! I have my own method for round filing and it's faster cutting than out of the box STIHL square. AND it's EASY!!!!!!


Tell me old cat!! Lol. All the details!


----------



## old-cat (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Tell me old cat!! Lol. All the details!



I've spelled it out before, not again. Pictures is what I'd need, I ain't got non.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> How about the anti oxidant additives?



My ice tea has that stuff in it


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 18, 2014)

So........that tea will be good for my chainsaw? 

Oh man. I'm more confused than ever now.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> My ice tea has that stuff in it View attachment 364157


Lmbo!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Tim at Maxima said we would never benefit from higher flashpoint. They actually recommend their scooter oil for chainsaws but ours being ported and the rpms we turn he recommended k2


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

I think the decision on which oil to choose would be a factor of if one wanting to blow the log out of the sawhorse!!! Lol


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

I think I like the banana oil that Mr. Foxx posted!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 18, 2014)

My Ipone is scooter oil VI: 135 FP: 105


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Ive called maxima back 4 times. Straight to voicemail. They must be busier than a cat covering up crap on a frozen pond


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 18, 2014)

Or tried of that "crazy saw guy".


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 18, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Or tried of that "crazy saw guy".


 LOL!!! I really like that one!!!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 18, 2014)

So then the Amsoil Dominator i mixed up is gonna be ok then[emoji106]


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Okay talked to Tim again. Several additives in the formula which are trademark and not given. Only 2 he would give me was extra emulsifiers for mixing better and techron additive for cleaning. Brad he wouldnt list the rust inhibitor but only said it had extra protection in it amd that they had no problems with rust that they had seen. He said with a coating Ester on the metal and the rust inhibitors there should be no problem


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 18, 2014)

Can Mike mill with Super M?


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

If it has rust inhibitors in it, that's good enough for me. I don't care what they're called. Thanks for your effort!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Can Mike mill with Super M?


Has a higher flashpoint but less viscosity index than k2. Ronnies chemist that use to mix oil said that anything over 120 on viscosity index is more than sufficient


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I think I like the banana oil that Mr. Foxx posted!!


Wonder if the banana oil is JASO-FD certified?


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

I've always been a fan of Techron fuel injector cleaner. Good stuff. Combine that with the better burning lower flashpoint, and we might have the cleanest burning ester based oil. I like that.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Okay I talked with Tim at Maxima Tech Support. He says Maxima uses a lower flashpoint in their oil because it aids in igniting the fuel a bit earlier. They also use long chain molecules with their formulation because it causes the mix to burn a tad longer in the combustion process. This together he said would make a more complete cleaner burn as opposed to higher flashpoint oils. The ester bases stick to the metal surfaces and has excellent film strength and protection . His words were the lower flashpoint would produce more energy that could be seen on a dyno, as compared to higher flashpoints. Anymore technical than that guys and u will have to call Tim at Maxima!! Lol


VP 94 premix canned fuel uses Motul 710 oil. Motul 710 has a low flashpoint. I have a connection with a Chemist for Stihl 2-cycle oil. When I get an answer I'll post it. I'll see if I get the same answer.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> VP 94 premix canned fuel uses Motul 710 oil. Motul 710 has a low flashpoint. I have a connection with a Chemist for Stihl 2-cycle oil. When I get an answer I'll post it. I'll see if I get the same answer.


Call Tim at tech Ronnie. He will tell u the same thing. Marketing hype or whatever it may be or factual ?is their claim though and the reason they have a lower flashpoint as the reason


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Id like to test the k2 lower flashpoint against a higher flashpoint oil on dyno


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Call Tim at tech Ronnie. He will tell u the same thing. Marketing hype or whatever it may be or factual ?is their claim though and the reason they have a lower flashpoint as the reason


I'm interested in that question also.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

The guy Tim at Maxima when I ask why the lower flashpoint he said, "To make it simple , more horsepower!" He then went into the spill about quicker ignition and all the other stuff


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I've always been a fan of Techron fuel injector cleaner. Good stuff. Combine that with the better burning lower flashpoint, and we might have the cleanest burning ester based oil. I like that.


It only makes sense Brad if u think about it. The more additive they add for a higher flashpoint resist temperature and burning?? Thats what its suppose to do. K2 should also be a much cleaner burn but so far I havent seen anyone that burns H1r or Motul 800t at 32to1 with a dirty topend?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 18, 2014)

None of those 3 are dirty. I don't have a top end with much run time with motul on it. I had more runtime on the quart of R50 before it ran out.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

These are all super fine, high quality oils. We're splitting very fine hairs at this point. Of course, that's what we like to do!


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> These are all super fine, high quality oils. We're splitting very fine hairs at this point. Of course, that's what we like to do!



Would you also include AMSoil Saber in that group?


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Would you also include AMSoil Saber in that group?


I have not done any research into Amsoil 2-stroke lubes. As long it's an ester base, I'd see no reason why not. Amsoil makes fantastic lubes.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Would you also include AMSoil Saber in that group?


I would Mike but it isnt an Ester based oil


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I would Mike but it isnt an Ester based oil


There's your answer. How about Dominator?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> There's your answer. How about Dominator?


Not sure but I ran the Saber at 50to1 and it soot the piston top and muffler after 1 running with a ported 261 at 14000rpm? Good oil just not clean but KenJax says he ran it and was clean?


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 18, 2014)

Just a little brown on the top of the piston that wiped off mixed @ 40:1.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 18, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Just a little brown on the top of the piston that wiped off mixed @ 40:1.



Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

I'll be honest...I run Woodland Pro Full Synthetic more than anything else. It's easy to buy by the case in small containers, and the price is right. It's a full synthetic, although I don't know if it's ester based or not. My guess is that it's a Group III "synthetic" or IV PAO synthetic. BTW, ester based synthetics are Group V. Regardless, I've seen it protect a MS441 used for extensive milling, with the limiter caps still on the carb needles. There were all kinds of signs of significant heat, but no sign of scoring. It's a great lube IMHO. Especially if you're on a budget, or use a lot of mix, it's definitely an option to consider.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 18, 2014)

Bradley, Bradley, Bradley..................Running an oil designed for regular chainsaws in ported chainsaws......Tsk Tsk. Bike racing oil is the only way to protect our high strung machines. I mean seriously......do you even know the flashpoint of woodland "pro", it's viscosity index, anything????????


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Bradley, Bradley, Bradley..................Running an oil designed for regular chainsaws in ported chainsaws......Tsk Tsk. Bike racing oil is the only way to protect our high strung machines. I mean seriously......do you even know the flashpoint of woodland "pro", it's viscosity index, anything????????


Ive ran all sorts of 2 stroke oil in dirt bikes and boat motors and have never seen any oils that burn clean like the h1r amd motul 800. Hadnt used k2 to say but why run oil that will dirty things up?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ive ran all sorts of 2 stroke oil in dirt bikes and boat motors and have never seen any oils that burn clean like the h1r amd motul 800. Hadnt used k2 to say but why run oil that will dirty things up?


Don't talk to me. I'm not the one running ridiculous non-ester chainsaw oil in a chainsaw. Next he'll prolly admit to putting pump gas in his car


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 18, 2014)

Can you even imagine running 87 octane and a chainsaw speced oil Actually, I run nothing but Premium in the saws.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 18, 2014)

Klotz nitromethane make them run a little hot


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

I didnt buy pro saws and port them to use cheap oil? Yall go for it! Lol


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 18, 2014)

This I making my head spin. I'm going to Walmart an get poulan oil now


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> This I making my head spin. I'm going to Walmart an get poulan oil now[/QUOTE
> As long as its Jaso fd/ high vi/high- low flashpoint/ rust inhibitors/ emulsifiers/ and
> smells like hell u will be in the ballpark even if it isnt reddish orange and smells like bananas


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 18, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> This I making my head spin. I'm going to Walmart an get poulan oil now



I used to use that......and nothing else.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 18, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I used to use that......and nothing else.



I know. I've used it some too. The milling has made me search more for a less offensive oil to the eyes and nose.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Back to the octane ? Lol. Ronnie is sending his 660 to Chad . Chad is also gonna test Sunoco 110 against low octane !!


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 18, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Back to the octane ? Lol. Ronnie is sending his 660 to Chad . Chad is also gonna test Sunoco 110 against low octane !!



That is a test I'm very interested in.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 18, 2014)

Dang Randy you might be changing oil and gas all within a week....how are you coping with this?lol


----------



## KG441c (Aug 18, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> That is a test I'm very interested in.


Me too Randy. Id like to see oil tested but we r gonna drive Chad crazy!!! Crazy dang chain saw guys!!!! Lol! Its normal to be obsessed with chainsaws isnt it??? I got an idea, we can wait til u get the dyno and ask u to do all the saw,fuel, oil testing!!! Lol! Just kiddin


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 19, 2014)

I'm almost out of H1r, but I'll prolly order more as it has performed fine. Regarding dyno testing for oil. Just bear in mind that if K2 burns 20% more completely than H1r, at 3% oil concentration a 5 hp saw will make about an additional 0.035 hp from that change. Friction reduction may play a role as well, but I'm not sure chads dyno will be accurate to 3 hundredths of a hp


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I'm almost out of H1r, but I'll prolly order more as it has performed fine. Regarding dyno testing for oil. Just bear in mind that if K2 burns 20% more completely than H1r, at 3% oil concentration a 5 hp saw will make about an additional 0.035 hp from that change. Friction reduction may play a role as well, but I'm not sure chads dyno will be accurate to 3 hundredths of a hp


If it adds anything and protects as well it all adds to a bigger pie. Oil , fuel, porting, chain, etc. If it all equals a better pie why not?? This is all a hobby and if it doesnt matter everyone should buy a little poulan from wal mart sell all the pro saws and stop discussing all this nonsense? Addiction to chainsaws? Alil overboard dont u think. Not only is nit picking over oil moot but chainsaws in themselves? People look at me like Im retarded when I tell them chainsaws are my pastime


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

Point is I think everyone has learned something about octane, oils , and chain. I know its helped me understand alota things and I hope thats the same objective for everyone and their point to post is not to only be objectionable or disprove everything we r trying to learn about


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 19, 2014)

KG441c said:


> If it adds anything and protects as well it all adds to a bigger pie. Oil , fuel, porting, chain, etc. If it all equals a better pie why not?? This is all a hobby and if it doesnt matter everyone should buy a little poulan from wal mart sell all the pro saws and stop discussing all this nonsense? Addiction to chainsaws? Alil overboard dont u think. Not only is nit picking over oil moot but chainsaws in themselves? People look at me like Im retarded when I tell them chainsaws are my pastime


As I was cleaning up the latest 2 additions the wife came in and asked what I was doing. 
I think I got her stumped now as to how many I have but for the life of herself can't figure out why I have more than one saw. [emoji15]


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

Well Keith.......I've learned a lot in this thread. 

I'd like to say thanks to you and Ronnie. 

Thanks to Chad for the awesome work he's been doing with that dyno too. 

I am a little bummed out that he's decided to keep it........but I don't blame him. He's put a ton of work into it.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Well Keith.......I've learned a lot in this thread.
> 
> I'd like to say thanks to you and Ronnie.
> 
> ...


Man Id like to see u get a dyno! Im sure u can crank a saw and tell what its gonna do but having that dyno would have to be quicker for testing and useful in so many ways. Of course other things would come in handier like that bigger shop for u and Jon since yall live a large portion of yalls lives in there. It needs a big back porch and a rocking chair or 2 to just sit and and relax when things get hectic


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

Randy have u a seen this dremel locking mandrel before?


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

No sir......never seen that before.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

They have small grinding wheels and different grit sanding discs and various other attachments. Locks on very tight


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Those are expensive little boogers if I remember right.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Those are expensive little boogers if I remember right.


I bought a five pack sanding disc for 3.89 and the mandrel was 9.99. Grinding wheel is 9.99


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

I have some rolls that go on a tapered mandrel. I think you can buy 30 for $10.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 19, 2014)

Randy, don't be too disappointed, at least the dyno has validated your testing procedures, and I think if you got a dyno you would have a very hard time maintaining your schedule, and that is something a lot of people have a steak in!

I would love to see a ported 362, hoping it would be similar to the 261 but more!!!!!


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

I think I know where these disc would come in handy on a few right hand angles? May be alil crude but not wanting to up 300 + on a cc specialty right now


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Here you go. I can't find the one like I have. 

http://www.amazon.com/Assorted-Sand...530&sr=8-10&keywords=1/8"+shank+sanding+drums


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Here you go. I can't find the one like I have.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Assorted-Sanding-Chicago-Electric-Milwaukeen/dp/B00DCFV5I6/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1408455530&sr=8-10&keywords=1/8" shank sanding drums


Wow! Great deal


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)

Ive found I like the sanding stuff better. Allows amateur porters to slow down and think and not get rowdy with the burr!!!! Lol


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Cc specialty also has a great selection of sanding bits.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

This is what I use for sanding and leveling.......I keep them in 60, 80, and 180 grit.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 19, 2014)

KG441c said:


> If it adds anything and protects as well it all adds to a bigger pie. Oil , fuel, porting, chain, etc. If it all equals a better pie why not?? This is all a hobby and if it doesnt matter everyone should buy a little poulan from wal mart sell all the pro saws and stop discussing all this nonsense? Addiction to chainsaws? Alil overboard dont u think. Not only is nit picking over oil moot but chainsaws in themselves? People look at me like Im retarded when I tell them chainsaws are my pastime


Don't mistake that post for a condemnation of your quest for chainsaw perfection. I have three ported saws and no wood to cut, so I have no leg to stand on in a "chainsaws are silly" argument. I'm only saying that it may be hard to see a difference on a dyno on such a small HP application.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 19, 2014)

I remember when people once ran this stuff in their saws..............


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I remember when people once ran this stuff in their saws..............
> View attachment 364258
> View attachment 364259



Was that in the 60s?


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 19, 2014)

I'd maybe run that in a box store weedeater, but that's pretty much it. I do remember the bad old days when I would buy 2-stroke oil from lowes

When are we going to get to bar oil?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 19, 2014)

Here ya go Jon...


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 19, 2014)

You don't even want to know what I use for bar oil....


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 19, 2014)

found a couple more bottles to read in the shop last night ,a bottle of 927 left over from the 250r ,looks like has the rust protection that was mentioned ,a lot of the top mx builders will only run this stuff and nothing else 



And the H1r i have been running


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 19, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> found a couple more bottles to read in the shop last night ,a bottle of 927 left over from the 250r ,looks like has the rust protection that was mentioned ,a lot of the top mx builders will only run this stuff and nothing else View attachment 364261
> View attachment 364262
> 
> 
> ...



The 927 is all I used to run. It smells like race day at the track  Don't think I will ever out it in a saw again. 

Now I have some Amsoil Dominator and Belray.  

Carry on...


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> found a couple more bottles to read in the shop last night ,a bottle of 927 left over from the 250r ,looks like has the rust protection that was mentioned ,a lot of the top mx builders will only run this stuff and nothing else View attachment 364261
> View attachment 364262
> 
> 
> ...



927 is what Cahoon uses in bike saws. Surely it's good enough for chain sawsopcorn:


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 19, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> 927 is what Cahoon uses in bike saws. Surely it's good enough for chain sawsopcorn:


His bike saws are the same top ends i ran in my atv's nix procross jugs


----------



## cgraham1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I remember when people once ran this stuff in their saws..............


I saw a local tree service guy mixing Stihl Ultra 50:1 with pump gas  the other day... He had the most beat to hell MS460 I have ever seen. Sad, really... 

I was telling him about my Masterminded 064 and his eyes started glazing over... 

Then I went in and got 2 gallons of E-free and mixed it with 8 oz. of H1R...


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

I could show you some ugly deposits from 927.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 19, 2014)




----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 19, 2014)

My buddy uses that in his KTM 250SX


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 19, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Cc specialty also has a great selection of sanding bits.


 yeah it's been my experience from what I have found in all of my go fast days in several racing categories,,, Them TN boys purty much got their chit all gathered up in the same sack when it comes to figuring how to get going faster. I buy from them too!!!! and have for the last few decades,,, their selection of hand tools and burrs is quite good too!!!!


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Well Keith.......I've learned a lot in this thread.
> 
> I'd like to say thanks to you and Ronnie.
> 
> ...



The Dyno results have put you in the "Hall of Fame of Builders". If someone is considering porting, there's no doubt they'll get their moneys worth. That's a small price to pay for that much extra performance.....proven performance.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

Blushing here Ronnie. 

To be honest I've had a lot of help, from a lot of places.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 19, 2014)

cgraham1 said:


> I saw a local tree service guy mixing Stihl Ultra 50:1 with pump gas  the other day... He had the most beat to hell MS460 I have ever seen. Sad, really...
> 
> I was telling him about my Masterminded 064 and his eyes started glazing over...
> 
> Then I went in and got 2 gallons of E-free and mixed it with 8 oz. of H1R...


If its bad ugly & stihl running its probably paid for itself many times over....JMHO... Stihl Ultra is rather good oil.. and when it comes to non self queens,,,,,,, Iv'e got a few Junk yard dog work horses that are butt arsed ugly!!! and they all still flat get-er done!!!!! He could do alot worse than Ultra,,, Just sayin


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

I like ugly saws. Remember my "Big 024" Rick?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> yeah it's been my experience from what I have found in all of my go fast days in several racing categories,,, Them TN boys purty much got their chit all gathered up in the same sack when it comes to figuring how to get going faster. I buy from them too!!!! and have for the last few decades,,, their selection of hand tools and burrs is quite good too!!!!



I ordered stuff this morning from them. Probably be here Thursday or Friday at the latest.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I like ugly saws. Remember my "Big 024" Rick?


Oh yeah,,, that saw was definitley JYD material!!!!! Seems I remember that butt ugly 046 of yours @ terrys, that was first fastest, then a shelf queen, and another ugly one was third!!!!!! Oh Yeah I remember!!!! cause I missed being first looser instead of second cause my sea level tune up was too fat!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 19, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I could show you some ugly deposits from 927.



Those pics were enough to make me stop using it in saws. Especially from the small amount of run time that saw had.

This is from my buddy Dewey's saw.. Pic courtesy of Randy. This saw only had a couple tanks ran through it before Randy got it. It was there the same time mine was and I had over double the amount of fuel through my 362C-M (but with Amsoil and Belray).

Piston of MS 362C-M running Castor 927


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 19, 2014)

cgraham1 said:


> I saw a local tree service guy mixing Stihl Ultra 50:1 with pump gas  the other day... He had the most beat to hell MS460 I have ever seen. Sad, really...


I bet he would have been interested in some suggestions for plastic polishing products. He prolly doesn't know that you are supposed to keep u'r saws clean and shiny. It's a common shortcoming on the "use a saw for a living" scene


----------



## BigOakAdot (Aug 19, 2014)

So what is the most recommended 2 cycle oil amongst the community? I just recently got a 660 for milling and want it to last. Is it worth driving 20 minutes for pure gas? What ratio are you guys using? Thanks. 

BOA


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 19, 2014)

I use 32:1........


----------



## cgraham1 (Aug 19, 2014)

BigOakAdot said:


> So what is the most recommended 2 cycle oil amongst the community? I just recently got a 660 for milling and want it to last. Is it worth driving 20 minutes for pure gas? What ratio are you guys using? Thanks.
> 
> BOA


You should read this thread in it's entirety, and then make your decision based on what you learned... 

....I run BelRay H1R. 32:1. Ethanol free.


----------



## BigOakAdot (Aug 19, 2014)

cgraham1 said:


> You should read this thread in it's entirety, and then make your decision based on what you learned...
> 
> ....I run BelRay H1R. 32:1. Ethanol free.


I started to but that's a lot of pages while on a cell lol


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

My pick is maxima k2.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 19, 2014)

BigOakAdot said:


> So what is the most recommended 2 cycle oil amongst the community? I just recently got a 660 for milling and want it to last. Is it worth driving 20 minutes for pure gas? What ratio are you guys using? Thanks.
> 
> BOA


Motul 800 off-road at 32:1


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

I just ordered 3 more liters of Maxima K2.


----------



## redfin (Aug 19, 2014)

Where did you order from?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Rocky mountain atv. $7 shipping over $49 or free over $99


----------



## CR500 (Aug 19, 2014)

Going to try Motul after this gallon 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 19, 2014)

FTW!!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 19, 2014)

Out of K2 so i'm gonna use this up


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 19, 2014)

If any of you all have come to the conclusion your oil is inferior...
Don't throw it away.. Send it to me, and I will graciously use it up for you..

Even Klotz...
That goes in the bar oil drum...


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> If any of you all have come to the conclusion your oil is inferior...
> Don't throw it away.. Send it to me, and I will graciously use it up for you..
> 
> Even Klotz...
> That goes in the bar oil drum...



I've never seen a bottom end and skirt lubed as good as R50.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 19, 2014)

Doesn't R50 leave desposits?


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 19, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I've never seen a bottom end and skirt lubed as good as R50.


That's why it would be so excellent on the bar...


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Doesn't R50 leave desposits?



Some. Not as bad as castor or super techniplate.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 19, 2014)

I have a pint of R50 and have never used it


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

I would use more if I had it.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 19, 2014)

I will use it all the time if its not gonna carbon up


----------



## Hedgerow (Aug 19, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Some. Not as bad as castor or super techniplate.


How clean is the inside of that 7900?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> How clean is the inside of that 7900?



Not sure. I haven't got it apart yet. Probably in the morning. I've been moving chickens around the yard after I got another video of it with a 24" full comp.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 20, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I would use more if I had it.


I'll send ya some,,, a qt. good?? dang chickens


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 20, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> I'll send ya some,,, a qt. good?? dang chickens



I don't need any. I'm stocked pretty good with motul and K2. A dirty piston top isn't the end of the world.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 20, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I don't need any. I'm stocked pretty good with motul and K2. A dirty piston top isn't the end of the world.


The sharpening stand u was talking about was the from member homelite410?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 20, 2014)

Yes he sells them. I have a regular steel one. I think gen 2


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 20, 2014)

KG441c said:


> The sharpening stand u was talking about was the from member homelite410?


OK Just offering we always carry plenty We buy 10 cases @ a time for the racing season will let you have it @10% above bulk cost plus shipping... *BTW, if you ever decide to part w/that 288 I'll take it *


----------



## KG441c (Aug 20, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Yes he sells them. I have a regular steel one. I think gen 2


Dont see a member homelite 410


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 20, 2014)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/members/homelite410.47299/


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 20, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> OK Just offering we always carry plenty We buy 10 cases @ a time for the racing season will let you have it @10% above bulk cost plus shipping if you ever decide to part w/that 288 I'll take it



Next time I get some I'll give you a buzz.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 20, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Next time I get some I'll give you a buzz.


Cool deal, You must be busy with them chickens again cause I see you avoided my comment/offer about the 288,,,   Just sayin


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 20, 2014)

BIG D said:


> Does anyone know what Dr. Alex Shigo's 90-3-90 rule means?



All of those are fine for now. I'm supposed to go pick up a lot of saws from a dealer and then a guy that logged with huskies for the last 20 years. I bought 3 from him last year.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 20, 2014)

288? 

What 288?


----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 288?
> 
> What 288?



My thoughts exactly.


----------



## cgraham1 (Aug 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 288?
> 
> What 288?





bryanr2 said:


> My thoughts exactly.


I just figured if it was for sale, Steven would already own it.


----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

Im on the lookout for a Mint 288 lite or xp. I now know where 2 are, but neither will part with. All in good time though, all in good time.


----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

guess i need to add it to my sig.....


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 20, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Im on the lookout for a Mint 288 lite or xp. I now know where 2 are, but neither will part with. All in good time though, all in good time.


Dream on


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 20, 2014)




----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Dream on



Everything has a price.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 20, 2014)

bryanr2 said:


> Everything has a price.


Just how bad do you want it, lol? I'll trade it for a Solo Twin


----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

how bout a NOS never been opened solo 665? HA HA.

atleast it's a Solo.


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 20, 2014)

I've got one of those too Steven........Those Solos are a dime a dozen.


----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've got one of those too Steven........Those Solos are a dime a dozen.



HA HA! I know that.


----------



## DexterDay (Aug 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I've got one of those too Steven........Those Solos are a dime a dozen.



At least the dozen that were just shipped out  

I have one too  Damn good saw!!


----------



## bryanr2 (Aug 20, 2014)

I just figured.... it's a Solo (so we are half way there with the name) and you cant get no more mint then in a sealed box that's never been opened..... that's being used as a shelf to set your mint 262xp on at the moment. Mint for Mint. Brad already knows he'll make good money on that 288 if he decides to ever sell it to me... and that it is a standing offer.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 20, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> 288?
> 
> What 288?


I know Right?????



cgraham1 said:


> I just figured if it was for sale, Steven would already own it.



Ya can't blame a CAD Freak fir tryin,,,,, and stuff!!!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 21, 2014)

I got 3 more liters of k2 delivered today.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 21, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I got 3 more liters of k2 delivered today.


Dang!! How much oil do u use???? Lol


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 21, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Dang!! How much oil do u use???? Lol


 
I can burn 2-3 gallons in about 2.5 hours milling. A tank lasts about 9-11 minutes of cutting.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 21, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I can burn 2-3 gallons in about 2.5 hours milling. A tank lasts about 9-11 minutes of cutting.


 If your mix is 32:1 then you can get 8.45 gallons out of one liter of oil. 
What saws do you use for milling? 390's, 660's??


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 22, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> There's almost no change in tune from maxima k2, r50, and motul 800.





RiverRat2 said:


> I agree I just got my Motul 2T today & switched one of my 044's to it from R-50,,, it was spot on from idle to WOT and seems to smoke/smell less.. made about 6 good cuts and so far I like it....



*Motul 800 2T Tune update!!!!
*
FWIW I swapped fuel (because it was old) in My Stihl FS 310 4Mix Trimmer/brush cutter from Non E 89 octane with Stihl HP Ultra @ 40:1 too my freshly mixed Motul 800 Non E 91 octane 32:1 and I had to idle it down to keep the head from free wheeling,,,, I cut brush for a-bit over an hr. Man that Motul smells good!!! Like Banana's and it doesn't seem to smoke much at all


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 22, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> If your mix is 32:1 then you can get 8.45 gallons out of one liter of oil.
> What saws do you use for milling? 390's, 660's??



088 or 394/5.


----------



## Ron660 (Aug 22, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> 088 or 394/5.


 Big ones....lots of torque


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 22, 2014)

Ron660 said:


> Big ones....lots of torque



Yes they don't work near as hard on the mill.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 22, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Yes they don't work near as hard on the mill.


Mike do you use ripping chain for your milling????


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 22, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> Mike do you use ripping chain for your milling????



Nope square filed skip mostly.


----------



## dl5205 (Aug 28, 2014)

Any of the new Maxima K2 converts have any feedback on the exhaust smell, or lack thereof? I know it's good oil, but so's the H1-R I've been using. I'm pretty interested in the lack of fumes, if it's really noticeable.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 28, 2014)

Belray lite my sinuses up!! Used motul 800t yesterday and this morning and noticed hardly any smell at all. Hadnt used k2 yet


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 28, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> Any of the new Maxima K2 converts have any feedback on the exhaust smell, or lack thereof? I know it's good oil, but so's the H1-R I've been using. I'm pretty interested in the lack of fumes, if it's really noticeable.



Maxima didn't bother me milling. H1r did. Motul is fine also. I did pick up a gallon of 110 today to try. I mixed it with K2.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 28, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Maxima didn't bother me milling. H1r did. Motul is fine also. I did pick up a gallon of 110 today to try. I mixed it with K2.


Ronnie calls the Sunoco 110 we use Purple Haze because of the purple tint the fuel has!! Lol.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm not newly converted to K2 but yes the smell of K2 is noticeably less fumey than H1R


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 28, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ronnie calls the Sunoco 110 we use Purple Haze because of the purple tint the fuel has!! Lol.



This is turbo blue.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 28, 2014)

Is it leaded? The gas station by my house has 110 leaded Turbo Blue and 100 unleaded Cam2


----------



## KG441c (Aug 28, 2014)

My take on h1r and motul 800t is that motul must have more emulsifiers as the oil mixes more readily with fuel than h1r. The h1r must be less miscible as I noticed alil more oil left internally with the h1r than motul 800. Both left a nice oily film but seemed the h1r left a tad more? Just my 2 cents


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 28, 2014)

Wow Keith emulsifiers and miscible?? Them are some big words that im sure have a dumber meaning i can understand


----------



## KG441c (Aug 28, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Wow Keith emulsifiers and miscible?? Them are some big words that im sure have a dumber meaning i can understand


Okay lets see? I may have this all wrong. Emulsify or become one meaning 2 liquids that normally wouldnt mix. Manufacturers add emulsifiers to aid the 2 substances to be able to more readily become one. Miscible meaning forming a liquid when mixed together and capable of being mixed. The h1r looks to be less miscible and less of the oil mixes with the fuel and results in more of the oil staying behind on the surfaces?


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 29, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Is it leaded? The gas station by my house has 110 leaded Turbo Blue and 100 unleaded Cam2



It probably is. Its all I have local to try without buying a can and having it shipped 45 miles away and picking it up. This was on the way yesterday. I did look to make sure non oxygenated.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 29, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> It probably is. Its all I have local to try without buying a can and having it shipped 45 miles away and picking it up. This was on the way yesterday. I did look to make sure non oxygenated.


Ya I hear the oxygenated is pretty corrosive


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 29, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ya I hear the oxygenated is pretty corrosive



Oxygenated is ethanol


----------



## KG441c (Aug 29, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Oxygenated is ethanol


That makes sense then. Racer told me anywhere there was fuel and is exposed to air will corrode


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 29, 2014)

KG441c said:


> That makes sense then. Racer told me anywhere there was fuel and is exposed to air will corrode



Ethanol ends up making water so rust will follow.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 29, 2014)

Mike whats the white hard substance in carbs that etanol causes


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 29, 2014)

I don't know what it actually is.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 29, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I don't know what it actually is.


I know it will ruin a carb!!


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 29, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I know it will ruin a carb!!



Yeah it can make a substance that an ultrasonic cleaner can't get out.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 29, 2014)

White buildup in your carb? What kind of fuel are you running?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 29, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> White buildup in your carb? What kind of fuel are you running?


Thats carbs ive seen with other peoples saws. Im sure Ethanol


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 29, 2014)

The Holley on my old Fairlane was ruined by that stuff.

It's just corrosion from the ethanol I reckon.


----------



## KG441c (Aug 29, 2014)

Its nasty! Im thinkin it may be only certain type metals if reacts with that way?


----------



## wyk (Aug 29, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The Holley on my old Fairlane was ruined by that stuff.
> 
> It's just corrosion from the ethanol I reckon.



It's likely either magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, magnesium hydroxide, and or zinc oxide, to just name a few substances that can be made when you stir up a chainsaw cocktail. None of those will get you more horsepower. See Wiki if you wish to educate yourself further. They tend to use zinc instead of aluminum for carbs because zinc is much less reactive than Aluminum, in general, to the stuff your shoving down their pipes.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Aug 30, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Ethanol ends up making water so rust will follow.


yeah It sucks


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm glad I have plenty of fuel options without ethanol.


----------



## VinceGU05 (Aug 31, 2014)

Anyone tried this one b4 
http://opti2-4.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=165


----------



## redfin (Aug 31, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I'm glad I have plenty of fuel options without ethanol.



Wish we did Mike. I have zero options locally. I did however find a bike shop that can order me k2. 64 oz for $33. Gonna give that a try.


----------



## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2014)

redfin said:


> Wish we did Mike. I have zero options locally. I did however find a bike shop that can order me k2. 64 oz for $33. Gonna give that a try.



Good price on it. I like it for the almost no smell and good lubing qualities.


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 31, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> The Holley on my old Fairlane was ruined by that stuff.
> 
> It's just corrosion from the ethanol I reckon.



Randy, what year Fairlane and what motor? I briefly owned a 67 that had a non original 410 Merc motor, but I sold it to buy my 70 Boss body. Would love to have both of them back now.


----------



## sunfish (Aug 31, 2014)

67 Fairlane is one of my all time favorites, but never owned one...


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 31, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Randy, what year Fairlane and what motor? I briefly owned a 67 that had a non original 410 Merc motor, but I sold it to buy my 70 Boss body. Would love to have both of them back now.



1966........all numbers matching 289 4 barrel. 





I bought it in 1987.......and just traded it for my Massey 135. I thought I would really miss the old car......but I don't.


----------



## sunfish (Aug 31, 2014)

Nice lookin car, Randy!


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 31, 2014)

first car was a '66 fairlane in '86. straight 6 200ci. $400

frame cracked under the steering box, first summer. layered/welded sheet metal. donno what ford was thinking.

passed on a '69 merc cyclone 390 for $600. 
kick in the fuehoes was passing on a '69 yarborough special cyclone for $1200 w/o the original 428CJ. (351W cannot remember). was making $2.35 an hour to put things in perspective.

randy, did yours have the "cold" blue light on the dash that came on 'till it warmed up?

-omb


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 31, 2014)

Oh yeah.......and the blue light still worked.


----------



## one.man.band (Aug 31, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Oh yeah.......and the blue light still worked.



too funny. 

my only good memory of that car! 

anyone whose replaced sagging rear leaf springs will know what i mean.

-omb


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 31, 2014)

Nice looking car Randy. There was a Yellow 66 390 at College, I drooled every time I saw it in the parking lot. If I was going to trade a Mustang for anything else, it would have been a 66-67 Fairlane. It was one of the lightest bodies that could take a big block, and had more rear back seat (& trunk) room than a Mustang. I am also a fan of both the Ford 289 and 390 engines. You could beat them to death all day long (believe me, I did) and they would still keep on running.

I never had a car w/the blue light, was not even aware of it.


----------



## CR500 (Aug 31, 2014)

Thunderbolt.... one of my dream cars


----------



## Mastermind (Aug 31, 2014)

I had a 64 Galaxy 500 XL with the Thunderbird package. HP 390 4 barrel......real nice old car.

Hell I had a pretty nice '66 Galaxy rag top.......traded it for a '56 Chevy 210 two door post. Traded that for a five color paint job on a tubbed '75 Chevy Luv that I drag raced. 

I've had a **** load of nice old rides. That stuff just got too damn expensive.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 31, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Point is I think everyone has learned something about octane, oils , and chain. I know its helped me understand alota things and I hope thats the same objective for everyone and their point to post is not to only be objectionable or disprove everything we r trying to learn about


 Good points .........
Since I read the entire thread, I kind of think that I should throw in what I think I have learned

BelRay H1r looks great inside, having to add some high jet only means that it isnt contributing to the burn as much as other oils, needs more gas because it isnt burning and cooks in the muffler where it is hottest. This means it is lubricating everything, all the way out, including the spark screen - I like that for my valuable 2 cycle ***, except if I had to hike to the woods and cut all day .......... then I might go through enough fuel to make me think about switching oils and gaining an extra tree to cut with each gallon of fuel burned

Motul and Maxima look good inside also, not exactely as good as the H1r in the pictures (IMHO), but they do add some fuel mileage to the tank compared to the H1r - and if they protect as well, where is the down-side ?

We have a few "seasoned" porters here all calling the top 3 oils about the same, except Brad who uses the cheap expensive synthetic stuff ............ even my stuff (with Echo synthetic @ 32:1 and Lawnboy @ 32:1 prior to that (before Echo sold 2 cycle synthetic)) looks good when torn down ........ some carbon on the piston top, but nothing to write home about.

I have been using VP 94 (50:1) and adding 7.2oz of Echo synthetic to the 5 gallon container to get it to 32:1 ................. 

BIG decision: I am going to wait and see how the Chimp likes the Maxima .......................... then decide between H1r and Maxima ...........or Motul ???????
Gee whizz .............. trying to make it simple and still having a hard time !
Dang Octane/oil/square/round/tastes better/less filling/42page threads !!!!


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 31, 2014)

They made the 427 Fairlanes right through 67, and a 67 427 used to cruse around Brewster when I first moved here, it was owned by a relative of a Brewster Ford employee.

I also met a CT guy at a car show who owns both a 67 427 Fairlane and a 68 428 Mustang (only a few year end 68s had them, along with engine oil coolers, 430 posi and staggered rear shocks). Ford won the Winter NHRA nationals with that car in 68.

Most of the Shelby GT 500s had 428 police interceptor engines (390 heads) and were anemic performers. The 68 KRs had real 428 CJ heads.

I did own a factory 68 428 drag pack Mustang (wish I had kept it), but it was not as fast as the 70 Boss 302 body that I stuffed a 427 Ford motor in (a 66 side oiler, cross bolt main Holman & Moody engine), and I had a 68 390 with a more aggressive cam that was faster than both of them.

The 390 has the same crank as the 427, but a smaller bore (ditto the 406, which has the same bore as a 428). 427 engines were not really intended for street use. Among other things, the piston pins were dead on center, allowing it to rev more safely. All other engines have the piston pin offset slightly so that they idle smoother. Also, the side oiler block could not run a hydraulic cam.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 1, 2014)

I've used most of the oils in this thread, including: R50, H1-R, K2, 927, and others. I just replenished my stock with K2.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 1, 2014)

Im gonna try the K2. From what Im seeing the H1r may leave alil more oil behind on the surfaces than the motul800


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 1, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> Good points .........
> Since I read the entire thread, I kind of think that I should throw in what I think I have learned
> 
> BelRay H1r looks great inside, having to add some high jet only means that it isnt contributing to the burn as much as other oils, needs more gas because it isnt burning and cooks in the muffler where it is hottest. This means it is lubricating everything, all the way out, including the spark screen - I like that for my valuable 2 cycle ***, except if I had to hike to the woods and cut all day .......... then I might go through enough fuel to make me think about switching oils and gaining an extra tree to cut with each gallon of fuel burned
> ...


If you're using VP94 then just use Motul, its already in there.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 1, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> If you're using VP94 then just use Motul, its already in there.


pretty sure its motul 710 in the vp94


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 1, 2014)

KG441c said:


> pretty sure its motul 710 in the vp94


Yup


----------



## KG441c (Sep 1, 2014)

I like h1r but the smell is horrific


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 1, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I like h1r but the smell is horrific


You should smell it up in a tight canopy


----------



## KG441c (Sep 1, 2014)

Well im not sure if chad posted the octane graph anywhere but since this is my thread on octane ill summarize. Not one bit difference between 92 octane and 110 in Ronnies 660. If anything the 92 edged it out


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Well im not sure if chad posted the octane graph anywhere but since this is my thread on octane ill summarize. Not one bit difference between 92 octane and 110 in Ronnies 660. If anything the 92 edged it out


 
If I am not mistaken, wasnt that test inconclusive due to the mixture not being adjusted for when 110 was ran ??

On my own ***, when I switched to 110 (from pump 93) I had to add quite a bit of high speed jet to make my engines 4 stroke, and conversely when I went to VP94 (from 110), I was pig rich untill I took away some of that same high speed adjustment ............ on all 14 of my 2 cycles, no exception.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> If I am not mistaken, wasnt that test inconclusive due to the mixture not being adjusted for when 110 was ran ??
> 
> On my own ***, when I switched to 110 (from pump 93) I had to add quite a bit of high speed jet to make my engines 4 stroke, and conversely when I went to VP94 (from 110), I was pig rich untill I took away some of that same high speed adjustment ............ on all 14 of my 2 cycles, no exception.


Not really sure. Dont think it will amount to a hill of beans. Seems the lower octane is doing alil better as Randy has stated all along


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Myself and a good friend have chased this tail in a circle on oil and fuel. The fuels in my opinion are a waste of time to invest further in as Randy and Brad has told us all along and has been proven several times now on dyno. I would question the quality of the race fuels vs pump fuels over the performance now after seeing test. How could one test the quality? As far as oil goes I think everyone has pretty much agreed on 3 100% ester oils, belray,motul800, and k2. I havent used k2 but just from what ive seen with my own eyes with the amount of oil left behind belray would be my first pick in relation to oil left behind and the amount adhering to the surfaces? I cant stand the smell of H1r so using motul 800t right now is what I use and also gonna try k2. Alot of top builders here using k2. By the #s only and what a few tech support guys have told me the lowerflash point in K2 will ignite alil more readily resulting in alil more energy. That along with the lower octane may make a slight noticeable difference. This is all my opinion and concluded from test I myself have done and talking with a few tech supports and have read over the last year here on AS. Ill probably settle in on lower octane and K2. Just my 2 cents and opinion. I think time vested would be worth more in things that actually will make a difference such as chain


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

I'll pop a muffler off today for a K2 pic


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I'll pop a muffler off today for a K2 pic


Good deal Mike. Im interested in the k2 and especially in that milling enviroment


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Good deal Mike. Im interested in the k2 and especially in that milling enviroment



The only 2 that have got it so far was the 550 and 7900 playing with the 110


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> The only 2 that have got it so far was the 550 and 7900 playing with the 110


Ill be interested to hear ur opinion on the 110


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

I think most of the charts on octane we look at are for longer stroked engines and the shorter 2 stroke saws dont have the duration of the combustion process to allow for detonation under normal operations. The shorter 2 strokes imo arent reacting to higher compression as the charts call for that are for longer stroked engines? Only my opinion. Randy had already posted a picture awhile back of a 2" plume vs a 3" plume as results from high octane vs lower. The lower octane had less of a plume showing less unburnt fuel in the air and out the exhaust


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> If I am not mistaken, wasnt that test inconclusive due to the mixture not being adjusted for when 110 was ran ??
> 
> On my own ***, when I switched to 110 (from pump 93) I had to add quite a bit of high speed jet to make my engines 4 stroke, and conversely when I went to VP94 (from 110), I was pig rich untill I took away some of that same high speed adjustment ............ on all 14 of my 2 cycles, no exception.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


>


Thanks Randy


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> If you're using VP94 then just use Motul, its already in there.


 I hear you, but its not Motul 800 ......... so I am going to mix different oils anyway. Same manufacturer, yes, but my highest priority is keeping my Tennessee ported machines as well as my own ported machines in the very best condition that I can. I cant replace my 038 Mag with another, so I just want the best for it.

Is there really any difference between the Bel-Ray, Motul 800, and Maxima K2 ............. slightly - as evidenced by the carb adjustment screws needing to be richened with Bel-Ray.
Is there really any difference between the protection all 3 give ?? possibly, but with all of the pictures that have been posted, I doubt anyone could do damage if any of those 3 were mixxed properly and run in a properly tuned engine


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


>


 
I saw that graph as well, and could have missed the part where Chad re-tuned the 660 when 110 was run, but was this graph with a re-tuen when 110 was run ?


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

I'm not sure.


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not sure.


 Maybe Chad can weigh in .............??


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

Personally I don't think it would make much difference. 

Every time I've tried 110 it slowed my saws down.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

13600 on the 110 and 14000 rpm on the 92


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Chad said the 92 was still 4 stroking at 14000 but the 110 was running clean at 13600


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Myself and a good friend have chased this tail in a circle on oil and fuel. The fuels in my opinion are a waste of time to invest further in as Randy and Brad has told us all along and has been proven several times now on dyno. I would question the quality of the race fuels vs pump fuels over the performance now after seeing test. How could one test the quality? As far as oil goes I think everyone has pretty much agreed on 3 100% ester oils, belray,motul800, and k2. I havent used k2 but just from what ive seen with my own eyes with the amount of oil left behind belray would be my first pick in relation to oil left behind and the amount adhering to the surfaces? I cant stand the smell of H1r so using motul 800t right now is what I use and also gonna try k2. Alot of top builders here using k2. By the #s only and what a few tech support guys have told me the lowerflash point in K2 will ignite alil more readily resulting in alil more energy. That along with the lower octane may make a slight noticeable difference. This is all my opinion and concluded from test I myself have done and talking with a few tech supports and have read over the last year here on AS. Ill probably settle in on lower octane and K2. Just my 2 cents and opinion. I think time vested would be worth more in things that actually will make a difference such as chain


 
Thank you for all of those efforts, personally I really appreciate the time that you (Chan, and Randy also) have taken for this threads info !
I am not advocating 110 for the "extra power" as some claim, I came to using it for the non-ethanol quality. Switching to VP94 isnt exactely cheaper, but I do notice some more oomph with the 94 as compared to the 110. (Also, no more yellowish discharge from the exhaust) If I could get 89 or 90 non-ethanol around me, I would.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> Thank you for all of those efforts, personally I really appreciate the time that you (Chan, and Randy also) have taken for this threads info !
> I am not advocating 110 for the "extra power" as some claim, I came to using it for the non-ethanol quality. Switching to VP94 isnt exactely cheaper, but I do notice some more oomph with the 94 as compared to the 110. (Also, no more yellowish discharge from the exhaust) If I could get 89 or 90 non-ethanol around me, I would.


My good friend Ronnie(ron660) contributed alot on this thread and others also. We hadnt always agreed on all this but debate makes u rethink thoughts and results in a good way sometimes


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Not really sure. Dont think it will amount to a hill of beans. Seems the lower octane is doing alil better as Randy has stated all along


 I disagree totally where I underlined !
A properly tuned engine will be ahead of a rich tuned one.
How much ahead the tuned engine will be depends on how rich the other one is running ........


----------



## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> I disagree totally where I underlined !
> A properly tuned engine will be ahead of a rich tuned one.
> How much ahead the tuned engine will be depends on how rich the other one is running ........


If thats the case if Chad would have tuned the 92octane out of 4 stroke over 14000 it may have produced a tad more energy over the higher octane


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Chad said the 92 was still 4 stroking at 14000 but the 110 was running clean at 13600


 
Clean unloaded (or slightly loaded) means lean !
I do remember that post where Randy showed the 2 different exhaust plumes, and I am sure Randy tuned for the 110 when he ran it.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

I meant to do timed cuts with the 550 with 93 and motul 800 and then 110 with K2. It will tune itself so that part shouldn't matter with it. If I have time I'll do that today. It takes so long to burn a whole tank in it.


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I meant to do timed cuts with the 550 with 93 and motul 800 and then 110 with K2. It will tune itself so that part shouldn't matter with it. If I have time I'll do that today. It takes so long to burn a whole tank in it.


That sounds good. I did a few timed cuts but variables are always a factor in wood but if 2 or more seconds became an average it may be plausible?


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> If thats the case if Chad would have tuned the 92octane out of 4 stroke over 14000 it may have produced a tad more energy over the higher octane


 I dont want to get too far out in the water ............... but I think a little perspective in this case is in order.
@ 14k rpm, even Randys 660 wouldnt be cutting wood, it would be basically unloaded.

I can tune my ported saw to run great with a 14" bar, but when I put on a 32" bar it would be too lean to survive.

OK, so the rpm at the right of the chart is a little "out of the cut" in rpm range.
What matters most is the power produced while cutting with a nice load, and very obviousely Randys handy work takes care of that very well, and Chads dyno shows that very dramatically !

I do think there is power lost with the 110 fuel as compared to 94 or 93 ......... but would like to see the same test run with the saw tuned for the 110. Chad has his plate full, and does a great job in showing what he tests and how he tests them, but those 2 graphs are close and I think they could be closer. Would the 110 ever top the 94 ? I believe probably not, as evidenced by my own equipment when I went from 110 to VP94.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> That sounds good. I did a few timed cuts but variables are always a factor in wood but if 2 or more seconds became an average it may be plausible?



I've got some good clear ash to use. It's smaller though so I don't know if it will be a good test. The cherry is hard so it would take longer to make those cuts.


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I've got some good clear ash to use. It's smaller though so I don't know if it will be a good test. The cherry is hard so it would take longer to make those cuts.


Ronnie did test as I myself did and both found to be around a second or so faster in wood but dyno showed different but id love to see what u come up with also?


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ronnie did test as I myself did and both found to be around a second or so faster in wood but dyno showed different but id love to see what u come up with also?


We'll see what the autotune does with it. I may make 3-4 cuts and then dump fuel and then run out and then refill and start over. I know I'll never get a whole tank of each run through it.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 2, 2014)

I wouldn't have a problem being 1 second slower if using good quality e free fuel.


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

Well I tested in the cherry cant I was using for the 7900. The 93 when i switched back to it it took 15 cuts or so for it to run right. I got a picture of the piston in the 550 with the 93 and motul. I'm not liking the oil coating of it. It's a little thin for me. 550 on top and 7900 on bottom with K2. The K2 left a good film on there but was hard to capture. I'm not going to use any more motul in the 550. I'm going to check the 395 now since the 550 was so dry.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)




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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Well I tested in the cherry cant I was using for the 7900. The 93 when i switched back to it it took 15 cuts or so for it to run right. I got a picture of the piston in the 550 with the 93 and motul. I'm not liking the oil coating of it. It's a little thin for me. 550 on top and 7900 on bottom with K2. The K2 left a good film on there but was hard to capture. I'm not going to use any more motul in the 550. I'm going to check the 395 now since the 550 was so dry.
> 
> View attachment 366228
> 
> ...


Ya thats what I told u the other day I saw too. The motul was alil thin compared to H1r


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> [/QUOTE
> have u averaged the times Mike?


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

No I haven't.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 2, 2014)

Mike the only response i got from Lucas on the % of synthetic oil was...."Unfortunately that is proprietary information"


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

I took them 3 times each video and averaged what I got. I broke it down into 3 cuts. It works out to 10.3% faster for 93 for all cuts.

110 93
14.08 11.79 16% faster for 93
13.19 12.10 8% faster
13.12 12.18 7% faster


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> No I haven't.





mdavlee said:


> I took them 3 times each video and averaged what I got. I broke it down into 3 cuts. It works out to 10.3% faster for 93 for all cuts.
> 
> 110 93
> 14.08 11.79 16% faster for 93
> ...


thanks mike! Thats good enough for me! Good info


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> thanks mike! Thats good enough for me! Good info


Well 10% is definitely enough to keep running 93. I could do it again in a bigger saw that I can tune instead. It acted funny when it went back to the 93. It had to recal itself. It was sputtering and missing when I first put it in wood after swapping fuels. I drained the tank and then started it and run it out that way and refueled.


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## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

Mike, you've lost weight.


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Well 10% is definitely enough to keep running 93. I could do it again in a bigger saw that I can tune instead. It acted funny when it went back to the 93. It had to recal itself. It was sputtering and missing when I first put it in wood after swapping fuels. I drained the tank and then started it and run it out that way and refueled.


Id love to see that also when u get time? What does the autotune do for adjusting the difference in octane? Just adjust rpm?


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

Here's one with R50. It coats real well.


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Mike, you've lost weight.


I believe so.



KG441c said:


> Id love to see that also when u get time? What does the autotune do for adjusting the difference in octane? Just adjust rpm?


Yeah it tunes to the same rpm constantly.


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## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

When it gets cool weather you need to come up and go cut with us again. 

I really enjoyed that day.


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Here's one with R50. It coats real well.
> 
> View attachment 366234


Looks great


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 2, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Looks great


Smells good too


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## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

R50 seems like damn good oil. Super Techniplate is nasty in a saw engine though.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 2, 2014)

I go back and forth about using R50 all the time knowng the oil im using burns cleaner


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## Mastermind (Sep 2, 2014)

Nothing seems better than H1R.......but it smells bad. 

K2 is what we are on now. I hope I never find any reason to change again. I like settling on one thing and sticking with it.

Hell I've been married nearly 3 decades.


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

I gotta see k2 in my saw before I decide. I may stick with h1r and wear a respirator!!! Lmbo!


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Motul looked great but didnt have the film of the H1r


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

I believe they all protect good enough imo. I like the 100% ester clean burn and a heavy film left behind. The h1r does both very well. Im gonna have to trust what u guys say on k2 and order some. I do lile the lower flashpoint of the k2 as I think it will react as the lower octane fuel does


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

I did test the 550 with 110 and K2. I didn't pull the muffler to see how it looked before I flushed it out with 93 and motul 800.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 2, 2014)

That piston looks pretty dry in the pic for milling ,does it get a better film if fatten the needle up some ?


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> That piston looks pretty dry in the pic for milling ,does it get a better film if fatten the needle up some ?



Which one you talking about?


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 2, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Which one you talking about?



one looking through the exhaust port on the husky looking saw has the jug on ,the one with jug off looks nice


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

That was the 7900. It was cutting cookies. It was just one that I had ran K2 in lately. It had half a tank of run time with it. It's hard to see but it had a wet seal on the piston when I rolled it up to get the skirt in the frame.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 2, 2014)

Are the insides of the muffler cans dry n those saws ?


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Are the insides of the muffler cans dry n those saws ?


The 550 is. The 7900 has a light film. I had cleaned it out with brake cleaner when I had the muffler split apart.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 2, 2014)

What oil do they put in tru fuel 50:1?
Smells good...
I got 3 cases from a friend the other day and been adding bout a quarter oz of lucas to each can...


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## sunfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> What oil do they put in tru fuel 50:1?
> Smells good...
> I got 3 cases from a friend the other day and been adding bout a quarter oz of lucas to each can...


Is that Lucas oil any good, Matt? I still have a quart I got from Stumpy.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 2, 2014)

sunfish said:


> Is that Lucas oil any good, Matt? I still have a quart I got from Stumpy.


Idk...
It's pretty damn cheap compared to Ultra... And available at your local OReilly's..
Ask mike if the guts of that 7900 still looked good.. It's what I been runnin for a while now...


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## KG441c (Sep 2, 2014)

Hedgrow I looked for the oil in trufuel but couldnt find what kind it is. Southfuels in Shreveport , La. Makes both the trufuel and motomox but stihl requires their silver bottle in motomix. This Southfuel and I think thats the name must be part of Omni Corporation in Shreveport La. That makes the Stihl Ultra. Ive heard castrol formulates stihl oil but is blended at Omni?


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## MustangMike (Sep 2, 2014)

Keith, did anyone check temp difference when running different octanes??? I'd be more interested in a 87 - 93 octane comparison as I don't use race fuel.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Hedgrow I looked for the oil in trufuel but couldnt find what kind it is. Southfuels in Shreveport , La. Makes both the trufuel and motomox but stihl requires their silver bottle in motomix. This Southfuel and I think thats the name must be part of Omni Corporation in Shreveport La. That makes the Stihl Ultra. Ive heard castrol formulates stihl oil but is blended at Omni?


It's pink and it smells pretty good...
And was free...
That's all I got to offer...


----------



## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Keith, did anyone check temp difference when running different octanes??? I'd be more interested in a 87 - 93 octane comparison as I don't use race fuel.


I will Mike just give me a few days. Ill check 87 and 110. Im workin alot lately


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## Flatie (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I gotta see k2 in my saw before I decide. I may stick with h1r and wear a respirator!!! Lmbo!


I'm interested to see K2 vs H1R on the carbon front to make any changes as I know H1R has very little carbon on most pictures i've ever seen.
I don't think I've seen a piston top of anything run on K2.


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## mdavlee (Sep 3, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Idk...
> It's pretty damn cheap compared to Ultra... And available at your local OReilly's..
> Ask mike if the guts of that 7900 still looked good.. It's what I been runnin for a while now...



7900 looked good inside. The Lucas probably works fine. I didn't see any funny wear.


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

Flatie said:


> I'm interested to see K2 vs H1R on the carbon front to make any changes as I know H1R has very little carbon on most pictures i've ever seen.
> I don't think I've seen a piston top of anything run on K2.


Dont think there will be a difference. When folks like Mdavlee,Randy, Brad, Kenjax have all switched and say the k2 coats and burns clean thats good enough for me. Randy told me about how good the h1r is and it proved itself as topnotch. He failed to tell us sensitive folks it smells bad!!!! Lol! Id use the Belray in a minute if ur smell and sinuses can tolerate it. Imo the k2 is as good from what im hearing unless ur firewood saw is a hotsaw then u may need Motul800 with the higher flashpoint for the maximum protection but I have my doubts on that from what Ive seen with the coating left behind but thats my opinion only from a visible observation. Redd Foxx I dont think u mentioned what oil u burn???


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## Moparmyway (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> When folks like Mdavlee,Randy, Brad, Kenjax have all switched and say the k2 coats and burns clean thats good enough for me.


 
Did Randy or Brad comment on the K2 yet ?
I know they both purchased some, but have eithor of them come to any conclusions based on their own teardown observations ?

Not that Kenjax or Mdavlee arent "heavy hitters" here, I am waiting to hear how Randy likes the inside of a machine that ran K2 - AFAIK, he is the only one that has lots of experience with the Bel-Ray (out of those listed) and I am sure he will see any difference pretty clearly


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 3, 2014)

I'm the last one you want an opinion from on this topic i'm just a tree guy lol...i only see my saws in my conditions using K2 and H1R where Mike,Brad,and Randy have probably seen hundreds from all over the world using those oils in different climates and conditions. But i will say K2 is great oil and everything inside is wet without any carbon and its much easier on the nose and lungs.


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

He made the comment yesterday thats what he is using and hope he never had a reason to change again and Brad has commented that he has used it before and just replenished his stock with 2 new liter bottles of k2


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> Did Randy or Brad comment on the K2 yet ?
> I know they both purchased some, but have eithor of them come to any conclusions based on their own teardown observations ?
> 
> Not that Kenjax or Mdavlee arent "heavy hitters" here, I am waiting to hear how Randy likes the inside of a machine that ran K2 - AFAIK, he is the only one that has lots of experience with the Bel-Ray (out of those listed) and I am sure he will see any difference pretty clearly


Ya I dont think ive heard Randy or Brad say what their observations r


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm the last one you want an opinion from on this topic i'm just a tree guy lol...i only see my saws in my conditions using K2 and H1R where Mike,Brad,and Randy have probably seen hundreds from all over the world using those oils in different climates and conditions. But i will say K2 is great oil and everything inside is wet without any carbon and its much easier on the nose and lungs.


Kenjax dont discredit urself. U use saws allday long as does Mdavlee which is what u wanna see? Yall have used the saws as much as anyone and obviously care about quality of oil and have made the observations that Im interested in hearing as well as Randy and Brads


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

But yes Mopar Id like to hear Randy and Brads observations also but I know their busy folks and ask too much of them as I know I do and I ask Mdavlee alot as well. Ive ask a thousand questions!!! Lol


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

Ill take all u fellows opinions over what the company spits out and people like to read and believe the marketing hypes? Simple things can be gauged with site such as the film left behind as a indicator of lubrication


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## Moparmyway (Sep 3, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm the last one you want an opinion from on this topic


I disagree ...........
Hearing from the builders and getting confirmation from an independant heavy user is priceless to me. I dont mind paying a little more if I am getting more for it, and so far, nobody has had anything but great comments about K2. I thought I saw a few pictures of K2 that didnt look as good as the BelRay pics did ................ but I also know how reality and a camera shot can be different.


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## mdavlee (Sep 3, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> I disagree ...........
> Hearing from the builders and getting confirmation from an independant heavy user is priceless to me. I dont mind paying a little more if I am getting more for it, and so far, nobody has had anything but great comments about K2. I thought I saw a few pictures of K2 that didnt look as good as the BelRay pics did ................ but I also know how reality and a camera shot can be different.



I don't know if I qualify as a heavy user but I have burnt over 5 gallons in 1.5 days milling. Motul 800 works but doesn't leave as much extra oil behind. K2 leaves more behind and has almost no smell. H1R is good in coating and clean burn but I can't work when my eyes and nose are running. Klotz R50 is the ultimate in left behind oil on the bottom of a piston. I've pulled several saws down after milling with them and R50 left almost twice the oil of any of the others. It has a high flash point so I see why it can.

Brad ran K2 several years ago as has Andyshine and he does use a good bit of mix a year. I ran 2 liters of H1r and it's fine.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Dont think there will be a difference. When folks like Mdavlee,Randy, Brad, Kenjax have all switched and say the k2 coats and burns clean thats good enough for me. Randy told me about how good the h1r is and it proved itself as topnotch. He failed to tell us sensitive folks it smells bad!!!! Lol! Id use the Belray in a minute if ur smell and sinuses can tolerate it. Imo the k2 is as good from what im hearing unless ur firewood saw is a hotsaw then u may need Motul800 with the higher flashpoint for the maximum protection but I have my doubts on that from what Ive seen with the coating left behind but thats my opinion only from a visible observation. Redd Foxx I dont think u mentioned what oil u burn???



Used to run stihl ultra 50 to 1 ,but i scored a piston on a modded hybrid somehow ,that saw was redone with a meteor top end and i have been trying to break it ,it is still going ,i was recommended by Mastermind to run h1r 32 to 1 ,i have ran that since and had no problems ,i have torn down saws at 50 to 1 and they were much dryer inside then the 32 to 1 saws i have torn down ,i have not had any bearings or piston failures yet running 32 to 1 ,the belray does not bother my nose that bad so i will keep running it ,my muffler cans are have oil residue inside and leak black goo ,but they run fine that way with the bar i run so i leave it be on the carb settings ,yes i know my muffler can needs centered ........


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Used to run stihl ultra 50 to 1 ,but i scored a piston on a modded hybrid somehow ,that saw was redone with a meteor top end and i have been trying to break it ,it is still going ,i was recommended by Mastermind to run h1r 32 to 1 ,i have ran that since and had no problems ,i have torn down saws at 50 to 1 and they were much dryer inside then the 32 to 1 saws i have torn down ,i have not had any bearings or piston failures yet running 32 to 1 ,the belray does not bother my nose that bad so i will keep running it ,my muffler cans are have oil residue inside and leak black goo ,but they run fine that way with the bar i run so i leave it be on the carb settings ,yes i know my muffler can needs centered ........View attachment 366464
> View attachment 366465


Plenty of lub there! Looks good! I like h1r also.


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## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I don't know if I qualify as a heavy user but I have burnt over 5 gallons in 1.5 days milling. Motul 800 works but doesn't leave as much extra oil behind. K2 leaves more behind and has almost no smell. H1R is good in coating and clean burn but I can't work when my eyes and nose are running. Klotz R50 is the ultimate in left behind oil on the bottom of a piston. I've pulled several saws down after milling with them and R50 left almost twice the oil of any of the others. It has a high flash point so I see why it can.
> 
> Brad ran K2 several years ago as has Andyshine and he does use a good bit of mix a year. I ran 2 liters of H1r and it's fine.


The bean oil in the r50? Will it leave behind more depoists than the ester oils?


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 3, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I don't know if I qualify as a heavy user but I have burnt over 5 gallons in 1.5 days milling. Motul 800 works but doesn't leave as much extra oil behind. K2 leaves more behind and has almost no smell. H1R is good in coating and clean burn but I can't work when my eyes and nose are running. Klotz R50 is the ultimate in left behind oil on the bottom of a piston. I've pulled several saws down after milling with them and R50 left almost twice the oil of any of the others. It has a high flash point so I see why it can.
> 
> Brad ran K2 several years ago as has Andyshine and he does use a good bit of mix a year. I ran 2 liters of H1r and it's fine.


 
Are you kidding ???
I have learned alot from your posts, and YES, I do consider you a "heavy" - just my opinion !

I ran through 10 gallons of mix last month ..... I have a good oil coating with Echo synthetic @ 32:1, and I still have the horizontal machining marks on every piece of equipment, but I would love to see less carbon inside my stuff !!


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 3, 2014)

Brian,
How many hours would you estimate are on that saw in the pic with the H1r used as mix ?

Black goo oozing from my muffler wont bother me one bit ........... its the blue goo at the bottom of a cylinder base that I will allways watchout for and stay far away from


----------



## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

If the r50 has excellent film left behind and alil more depoists maybe yamaha ringfree would be good to run with it. I use ringfree with my stihl 4mix engines where the valves are prone to carbon buildup. The ringfree works


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## mdavlee (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> The bean oil in the r50? Will it leave behind more depoists than the ester oils?



Yes it's good stuff. It leaves a film on top of the piston but nothing awful. This had around 5-8 gallons of R50 through it during the winter months milling. I can't remember exactly but it was the only saw I was using at the time for milling. I used a whole quart of R50 up through it and the 385. The motul 800 started washing it off pretty good and I wiped most of it off after that. It's no worse than stihl ultra or lucas leaves behind. Super techniplate or maxima 927 if saws aren't run hard and get hot enough to burn some off will have some nasty thick deposits.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

Still sounds like k2 is best all around for performance, clean burn , and film left behind and smell?


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Still sounds like k2 is best all around for performance, clean burn , and film left behind?



It does fine. Any of them really do a good job. It's splitting hairs so much at the point between H1r, K2, R50, and Motul 800. Original techniplate is good stuff if you may be mixing with ethanol. It works with methanal and alcohol. 

http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=48&submit2=View


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 3, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> Brian,
> How many hours would you estimate are on that saw in the pic with the H1r used as mix ?
> 
> Black goo oozing from my muffler wont bother me one bit ........... its the blue goo at the bottom of a cylinder base that I will allways watchout for and stay far away from




I honestly don't know ,i have 6 saws i use ,i can't even remember how long i have had it back since it was built ,i would have to see if could find the thread on it for reference it as how long i have had it , is a go to saw i use a lot ,I am not a production faller ,they normally put 25-30 hours a week on a saw i do nowhere near that i could guess less than 100 hours since it was done ,but i can not document it ,i have not kept good track ,i hear of guys getting 2000 hours out of a stihl so i am not a good guy for proving it is any better ,i would ask a production logger ,but most of them i know run stihl mix and get 2000 plus hours from a saw (but most run a lot less compression than i do ),i honestly do not know any pro fallers that run the dirt bike oil like we do ,but their saws are more mildly built then what we play with too ,i have let a few pro fallers try my saws out ,there were smiles on their faces after if that says anything


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 3, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> It does fine. Any of them really do a good job. It's splitting hairs so much at the point between H1r, K2, R50, and Motul 800. Original techniplate is good stuff if you may be mixing with ethanol. It works with methanal and alcohol.
> 
> http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=48&submit2=View


I like a little techniplate mixed with my alcohol...
On the rocks.... 50:1
32:1 it starts tasting bad...


----------



## CR500 (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> The bean oil in the r50? Will it leave behind more depoists than the ester oils?


R-50 is not a bean based oil... it has some of the same protection characteristics though.

" R-50 is a pure synthetic lubricant designed exclusively for use in all sustained Hi-RPM 2-stroke racing engines. R 50™ film strength is comparable to castor oil with the benefits of Clean Burn™ technology"


----------



## KG441c (Sep 3, 2014)

CR500 said:


> R-50 is not a bean based oil... it has some of the same protection characteristics though.
> 
> " R-50 is a pure synthetic lubricant designed exclusively for use in all sustained Hi-RPM 2-stroke racing engines. R 50™ film strength is comparable to castor oil with the benefits of Clean Burn™ technology"


Ok. Wonder why it leaves alil more depoists behind?


----------



## CR500 (Sep 3, 2014)

CR500 said:


> R-50 is not a bean based oil... it has some of the same protection characteristics though.
> 
> " R-50 is a pure synthetic lubricant designed exclusively for use in all sustained Hi-RPM 2-stroke racing engines. R 50™ film strength is comparable to castor oil with the benefits of Clean Burn™ technology"



Super TechniPlate however is blended with 20% BeNOL® Racing Castor Oil.

Also for giggles lol.

R-50 mixed with Sunoco 92 E-10 fuel
l







Maxima K2 freshly mixed with the same fuel


----------



## CR500 (Sep 3, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ok. Wonder why it leaves alil more depoists behind?


Not sure my 720 open mod D&D motors always looked clean with this stuff from 32:1 and 40:1

https://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=48

Super Tecniplate
https://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=44&submit2=View

Benol
https://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=2&submit2=View


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 3, 2014)

Welcome to the world of super techniplate...
This was after 2 gallons of use..


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## Hedgerow (Sep 3, 2014)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/project-stumpbroke-562xp.203790/


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## mdavlee (Sep 3, 2014)

I'm not going to run super. I know sachsmo gets good results while milling with it. He may get the saws hot enough to burn that off.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 3, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Welcome to the world of super techniplate...
> This was after 2 gallons of use..


That is hideous!!! I've never seen anything like that. Are you sure something else wasn't going on?


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## Hedgerow (Sep 3, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> That is hideous!!! I've never seen anything like that. Are you sure something else wasn't going on?


That was a new saw given to me, along with 2 gallons of mix of super techno plate to break that saw in before Stump ported it...
I whipped that saw like a rented mule for 2 days clearing fence rows of hedge and locust trees...
To use up the last half gallon, I did nothing but set up rounds and noodle them into 9 pieces, over and over...
The daily temps were around 95 degrees... The saw was given no quarter....
Re-fill check chain and go... That test is what sold me on the 562...
Do you realize how much wood I cut on that 2 gallons of fuel!!??
Now...
You tell me what was going on..
The fuel was non eth fuel...


----------



## VinceGU05 (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Nothing seems better than H1R.......but it smells bad.
> 
> K2 is what we are on now. I hope I never find any reason to change again. I like settling on one thing and sticking with it.


i may have just upset that apple cart then.


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> That was a new saw given to me, along with 2 gallons of mix of super techno plate to break that saw in before Stump ported it...
> I whipped that saw like a rented mule for 2 days clearing fence rows of hedge and locust trees...
> To use up the last half gallon, I did nothing but set up rounds and noodle them into 9 pieces, over and over...
> The daily temps were around 95 degrees... The saw was given no quarter....
> ...


That right there also sold me on the 562xp! It takes a hell of a lot of wood to run two gallons through a 562xp!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I honestly don't know ,i have 6 saws i use ,i can't even remember how long i have had it back since it was built ,i would have to see if could find the thread on it for reference it as how long i have had it , is a go to saw i use a lot ,I am not a production faller ,they normally put 25-30 hours a week on a saw i do nowhere near that i could guess less than 100 hours since it was done ,but i can not document it ,i have not kept good track ,i hear of guys getting 2000 hours out of a stihl so i am not a good guy for proving it is any better ,i would ask a production logger ,but most of them i know run stihl mix and get 2000 plus hours from a saw (but most run a lot less compression than i do ),i honestly do not know any pro fallers that run the dirt bike oil like we do ,but their saws are more mildly built then what we play with too ,i have let a few pro fallers try my saws out ,there were smiles on their faces after if that says anything



I posted this video Jan 21, 2013....



The reason I've not mentioned anything about what I thought of the K2 is because I've not started using it yet. I'm out of H1R as of yesterday......so I'll be mixing some fresh fuel with K2 today.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> That was a new saw given to me, along with 2 gallons of mix of super techno plate to break that saw in before Stump ported it...
> I whipped that saw like a rented mule for 2 days clearing fence rows of hedge and locust trees...
> To use up the last half gallon, I did nothing but set up rounds and noodle them into 9 pieces, over and over...
> The daily temps were around 95 degrees... The saw was given no quarter....
> ...


I'm guessing it was more heat than the oil could handle. That crap looks baked on to me. I'm most concerned by the apparent blowby that looks to have been going on. I'm shocked to see it down the side of the piston like that.

BTW, what was the reason to break it in before porting? Seems to me it'd be better the other way around.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 4, 2014)

I read this awhile ago and found it interesting. Ester oils are absorbed into the metal surfaces and stay there where as other oils depend on viscosity to stay put on the surfaces. Upon start up which is a high wear time, it only makes sense there will be more protection between the surfaces With the esters staying put? Less friction easier starting also?


----------



## KG441c (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I posted this video Jan 21, 2013....
> 
> 
> 
> The reason I've not mentioned anything about what I thought of the K2 is because I've not started using it yet. I'm out of H1R as of yesterday......so I'll be mixing some fresh fuel with K2 today.



opcorn:


----------



## KG441c (Sep 4, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm guessing it was more heat than the oil could handle. That crap looks baked on to me. I'm most concerned by the apparent blowby that looks to have been going on. I'm shocked to see it down the side of the piston like that.
> 
> BTW, what was the reason to break it in before porting? Seems to me it'd be better the other way around.


It looks pretty bad


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 4, 2014)

KG441c said:


> opcorn:



That video was before a couple more tweaks were done inside ,it revs more in the cut now and does not bog like in the video now ,not that it is bogging awfully bad ,but it runs a lot better now,i have also added the early 10mm flywheel since that video ,which helps keep the power rolled on with a longer bar


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm guessing it was more heat than the oil could handle. That crap looks baked on to me. I'm most concerned by the apparent blowby that looks to have been going on. I'm shocked to see it down the side of the piston like that.
> 
> BTW, what was the reason to break it in before porting? Seems to me it'd be better the other way around.


Stumpy's brain works differently...
He wanted to know what a well broke in stock 562 was capable of before he even opened it up...
I cut year around... Once you hit 100 degrees, that'll separate the workers from the players...
The autotune did it's job, and he was happy with the results..
Even if he did have to clean all that freaking brown goo off the P&C...
And that weren't no small task.....


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 4, 2014)

When I look at any of the P&C pictures of the BelRay, I find myself asking out loud "Did the guy even run it ?" ......... including yours Brian.
Obviousely your muffler tells a different story, but I aint too worried about protection or a layer of gunk on my 2 cycle mufflers

All of the other pictures of every other mix, I have been able to see that the machine was ran.


Randy,
We knew you had to run the Bel Ray out, and I am not in a rush to hear your opinion of K2 ............. but when you decide how you like it, I am sure we will all listen VERY carefully !!


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

Oh, and my theory is, that wasn't blow by...
The oil was sticking to the parts as it should, but it only got cooked onto the hottest surfaces...
Which would be all the way around the crown...
Think deep fryer using bean oil...


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 4, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> When I look at any of the P&C pictures of the BelRay, I find myself asking out loud "Did the guy even run it ?" ......... including yours Brian.
> Obviousely your muffler tells a different story, but I aint too worried about muffler protection on my 2 cycle stuff
> 
> All of the other pictures of every other mix, I have been able to see that the machine was ran.
> ...



I would like to point out all my mufflers are not as soaked inside as that hybrid ,they are moist with oil ,but not dripping as bad as that saw ,i am thinking maybe the finger ports may have something to do with it forcing more fuel out the exhaust is all i can come up with ,here is my ms660 i mill with ,maybe the milling runs hotter to burn more off ,i am not 100% sure but it has good oil protection ,just not dripping like the hybrid this is also h1r 32 to 1 92 super unleaded with 10% ethanol out of the pump


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 4, 2014)

You used that milling ?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
Holy cow !! (NOT an invitation for DSS)

Again .......... I find that piston top to be just about unbelieveable, if I just look at the piston, I would wager that it wasnt even ran !


----------



## KG441c (Sep 4, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> You used that milling ?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
> Holy cow !! (NOT an invitation for DSS)
> 
> Again .......... I find that piston top to be just about unbelieveable, if I just look at the piston, I would wager that it wasnt even ran !


Ester oils run very clean


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 4, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Ester oils run very clean


 
Bel Ray H1r runs superbly clean ................ all of the other oils, as good as they may well be, as clean as they might run, do not run that clean !

I have already ordered a liter of Bel Ray H1r and a quart of K2 ............ but I will wait patiently to hear from Randy.
I suspect he will give his blessing for K2, and let us know that it coats the innards with oil very well, along with a disclaimer that it doesnt run as clean on the top of the piston, and his nose thanks him


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Oh, and my theory is, that wasn't blow by...
> The oil was sticking to the parts as it should, but it only got cooked onto the hottest surfaces...
> Which would be all the way around the crown...
> Think deep fryer using bean oil...


That makes perfect sense.


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> That makes perfect sense.



Well, don't tell anybody....

I got a rep to uphold...


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 4, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> You used that milling ?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
> Holy cow !! (NOT an invitation for DSS)
> 
> Again .......... I find that piston top to be just about unbelieveable, if I just look at the piston, I would wager that it wasnt even ran !



That exhaust port is polished so that also helps with less carbon build up ,when i ran stihl mix 50 to 1 i had carbon build up in the exhaust port though 

And yes that saw is only used on my norwood mill for making lumber ,that saw has had a lot of fuel run through it ,cutting a 12 inch wide board ,i uses about a tank of fuel in about 3 12 foot passes ,cutting a 2x6 i use less fuel ,get maybe 12 passes per tank

I also run my saws rich ,but they run clean in the cuts


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> That exhaust port is polished so that also helps with less carbon build up ,when i ran stihl mix 50 to 1 i had carbon build up in the exhaust port though
> 
> And yes that saw is only used on my norwood mill for making lumber ,that saw has had a lot of fuel run through it ,cutting a 12 inch wide board ,i uses about a tank of fuel in about 3 12 foot passes ,cutting a 2x6 i use less fuel ,get maybe 12 passes per tank
> 
> I also run my saws rich ,but they run clean in the cuts



That 660 is another test saw we did too. We needed a crank for it and Weedeaterman supplied we a AM crank to test. It's still going......and on a mill to boot!!!!


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> *Stumpy's brain works differently...*
> He wanted to know what a well broke in stock 562 was capable of before he even opened it up...
> I cut year around... Once you hit 100 degrees, that'll separate the workers from the players...
> The autotune did it's job, and he was happy with the results..
> ...




It is actually a very good idea to compare a well broken in saw against a ported one. Good for Stumpy!


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

sunfish said:


> It is actually a very good idea to compare a well broken in saw against a ported one. Good for Stumpy!



I agree to a point......but compare a new ported saw to a new stock saw is just as meaningful. 

Comparing a well broken in ported saw to a new stock saw, would be hedging bets by us guys that port these things though.


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I agree to a point......but compare a new ported saw to a new stock saw is just as meaningful.
> 
> Comparing a well broken in ported saw to a new stock saw, would be hedging bets by us guys that port these things though.


Well, that make sense also...


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 4, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> That exhaust port is polished so that also helps with less carbon build up ,when i ran stihl mix 50 to 1 i had carbon build up in the exhaust port though
> 
> And yes that saw is only used on my norwood mill for making lumber ,that saw has had a lot of fuel run through it ,cutting a 12 inch wide board ,i uses about a tank of fuel in about 3 12 foot passes ,cutting a 2x6 i use less fuel ,get maybe 12 passes per tank
> 
> I also run my saws rich ,but they run clean in the cuts



Big difference in fuel usage from hardwoods to softwoods. The 660 would use a tank on 16" wide poplar 11.5' long. On the cherry the 390 with 22" wide was using 2 tanks for 9'.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

When is your 346 suppose to be there Don?


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 4, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Big difference in fuel usage from hardwoods to softwoods. The 660 would use a tank on 16" wide poplar 11.5' long. On the cherry the 390 with 22" wide was using 2 tanks for 9'.


Yes cedar i get better fuel economy than fir also ,i have not milled hardwoods ,and am limited to about 22-24 inch wide slab max with my setup 

Maybe you need to sharpen your chain


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> When is your 346 suppose to be there Don?


Today! FedEx usually delivers late afternoon. I need to get on the tractor and drag some logs up to the shop. But it'll be a couple days before I have time for that. Really lookin forward to it, bubba!!!


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

Let us know how it compares to what you've been running.


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 4, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> Yes cedar i get better fuel economy than fir also ,i have not milled hardwoods ,and am limited to about 22-24 inch wide slab max with my setup
> 
> Maybe you need to sharpen your chain



I wish it was the case. Hardwoods is a lot slower going milling. I never got into one with the 088 that I couldn't finish with a tank. The 395 will usually finish a 9-10' cut 20" wide on one tank but not have much left.


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Let us know how it compares to what you've been running.


I sure will...


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 4, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I also run my saws rich ,but they run clean in the cuts


 
My opinion, thats a perfect tune, and thats exactely how I run all of mine


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Big difference in fuel usage from hardwoods to softwoods. The 660 would use a tank on 16" wide poplar 11.5' long. On the cherry the 390 with 22" wide was using 2 tanks for 9'.





Trx250r180 said:


> Yes cedar i get better fuel economy than fir also ,i have not milled hardwoods ,and am limited to about 22-24 inch wide slab max with my setup
> 
> Maybe you need to sharpen your chain



Man.. You guys need bigger tanks...
2 / 9' x 25" x 3" Hickory Bar tops = 1 tank of fuel in the 9010...


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Man.. You guys need bigger tanks...
> 2 / 9' x 25" x 3" Hickory Bar tops = 1 tank of fuel in the 9010...



The 9010 I had here would make cut and then a 1/3 of the next.


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> The 9010 I had here would make cut and then a 1/3 of the next.


The Lucas oil must get me better fuel economy...


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> The Lucas oil must get me better fuel economy...


I hope it does....im using it now


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I hope it does....im using it now


Honestly, it could be no good, or great... I got no idea...
But:
A. It's cheap and available...
B. My saws haven't melted down yet..
C. It's blue... And blue is a pleasing color... It looks cool and refreshing for the saws... 

Have not tasted it yet to see if it's blueberry flavored...


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 4, 2014)

Blue Raspberry....taste test done already,if it didn't kill my internals it won't kill my saws.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> Have not tasted it yet to see if it's blueberry flavored...



Video of the tasting?


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Video of the tasting?


I'll bring some to the GTG....
You can try it in person...
Provided Chris lives...


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

I wanna see you taste it though big guy.


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

I'm having some right now...




Mmmmm..Refreshing!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 4, 2014)

My kids like it


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

See???

Heck, T1 swims in it!!!



Tell me that don't look refreshing on a 95 degree day!!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> See???
> 
> Heck, T1 swims in it!!!
> 
> ...



What is a 95 degree day ?


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Hedgerow said:


> The Lucas oil must get me better fuel economy...


I just bought another quart yesterday... opcorn:


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> When is your 346 suppose to be there Don?


The box has landed!


----------



## Hedgerow (Sep 4, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> What is a 95 degree day ?


It's after a cold front moves through here in August...
Giving us a break from the 102 degree days...


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

sunfish said:


> The box has landed!



I see that......

Did you run it in the garage????


----------



## Brush Ape (Sep 4, 2014)

About a gallon of SemiSyn a month for the last two years in the high compression stuff. Makes 50 gallons mix. No melt downs ever and does smell good.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 4, 2014)

How's the exhaust port with the lucas b/a ? does it soot up like stihl oil at all ?


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> I see that......
> 
> Did you run it in the garage????


It's too hot and all I have is a few firewood rounds, but I did make a couple cuts. Holy Chit Batman!!!


----------



## Brush Ape (Sep 4, 2014)

It's the cleanest burn'n stuff I think you ever saw Brian. Right here now, one auto parts store is a Stihl dealer and it's $6.30 per quart. I really don't like anything better as good as my saws run.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 4, 2014)

sunfish said:


> It's too hot and all I have is a few firewood rounds, but I did make a couple cuts. Holy Chit Batman!!!


----------



## sunfish (Sep 4, 2014)

Mastermind said:


>


I'll give a proper report when I get a chance to run it, with pics an stuff! Thanks a bunch my friend!


----------



## Brush Ape (Sep 4, 2014)

Did you ever grow any thing in the garden of your mind?

You can grow ideas....


........... in the garden of your mind.


Oh yeah did you ever look at cat's eyes in the dark and wonder what they were?


----------



## VinceGU05 (Sep 5, 2014)

Can't wait to finish off my Stihl ultra. Smells nice but nose burns for a coupla hrs after only 10 mins of use.


----------



## redfin (Sep 5, 2014)

50 pages of good oil info and its civil. All you make me proud.

Good chat in this one. Thanks


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 5, 2014)

This thread has taught me a bunch. 

I too appreciate the civility.


----------



## wyk (Sep 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> I'm guessing it was more heat than the oil could handle. That crap looks baked on to me. I'm most concerned by the apparent blowby that looks to have been going on. I'm shocked to see it down the side of the piston like that.
> 
> BTW, what was the reason to break it in before porting? Seems to me it'd be better the other way around.



I've seen a couple kart motors look like that after a race or two with castor/bean stuff. And that coating was still slick as snot. It's the 'plate' in techniplate. Of course, that may not be at all what's goin on there. I'm jis saying... ya know...


----------



## Andyshine77 (Sep 5, 2014)

I'll give my final thoughts on this whole oil deal

The most residual oil left behind on engine internals, was definitely R50, with Motul 800 coming in a close #2. Mike however found that not to be the case in his situation. If I remember correctly, the AT saws seem to run quite lean? Wonder if that played a role in his findings.

H1R lubricated well, but I didn't care for the tuning issues, the smell didn't bother me.

K2 seems to have a good balance of lubricating properties, with little smell or smoke, seems to burns clean, tunes nicely, and is a bit less expensive.

If I were going to run something other than K2 it would likely be R50. Every engine I've been into, that was ran on R50, was dripping wet with oil.


----------



## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2014)

I'll be sticking with the H1R for a while. It smells, but the internals look so good with it. Regarding the tuning issue, I never really had one. If I was switching oils with each tank it would be a PITA, but since I don't it isn't.
It was also asserted many pages ago that H1R wants more jet due to less of it burning. I doubt that this is the case. If half the H1R burned compared to K2 that would be a 1.5% difference in tune, which is pretty minor. I'd bet the "stickiness" (the K-man may have a big word for that) of the oil is affecting the flow thru the h-jet


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 5, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I'll be sticking with the H1R for a while. It smells, but the internals look so good with it. Regarding the tuning issue, I never really had one. If I was switching oils with each tank it would be a PITA, but since I don't it isn't.
> It was also asserted many pages ago that H1R wants more jet due to less of it burning. I doubt that this is the case. If half the H1R burned compared to K2 that would be a 1.5% difference in tune, which is pretty minor. I'd bet the "stickiness" (the K-man may have a big word for that) of the oil is affecting the flow thru the h-jet



On a ported 066 I had I was out around 1.5-1.75 turns with H1R. It wanted to run at 15.5k with it. It came from klotz tuned at 13.8k.


----------



## sunfish (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm goin to run this Lucas oil for awhile. Bushy says it's good, so it's gotta be...Right?


----------



## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> On a ported 066 I had I was out around 1.5-1.75 turns with H1R. It wanted to run at 15.5k with it. It came from klotz tuned at 13.8k.


Exactly. If it were a burning issue, there wouldn't be that much difference. There would only be a tuning issue if you were near the carbs limit, or were switching oils frequently


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 5, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Exactly. If it were a burning issue, there wouldn't be that much difference. There would only be a tuning issue if you were near the carbs limit, or were switching oils frequently


I think that saw was at the limit of the jet in the carb really.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 5, 2014)

This thread has came along way from the mentality of all oil is good? We have narrowed it down to about 4 oils that probably are splitting hairs. The Klotz, Motul, H1R, are all high flashpoints compared to k2 being 1/2 the flashpoint? How is flashpoint affecting combustion?


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 5, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> It was also asserted many pages ago that H1R wants more jet due to less of it burning. I doubt that this is the case. If half the H1R burned compared to K2 that would be a 1.5% difference in tune, which is pretty minor. I'd bet the "stickiness" (the K-man may have a big word for that) of the oil is affecting the flow thru the h-jet



To me that raises a few more questions ....

- Wouldn't it pour differently then ?
- If the high jet needs that much more with Bel Ray, there should be a noticeable difference in fuel viscosity, no ?
- If the "stickiness" is the culprit, why doesn't the low jet get affected ?

I am just trying to understand the fact that with the Bel Ray, carbon builds inside the muffler, doesn't form in the combustion chamber, high jet needs tuning rich ................... not contributing to the burn as much as other oils makes more sense to me, than gasoline having its viscosity altered by 1 part oil and 32 parts gas.

One last observation I must make, I have run 24:1 (and richer) with some other oils and when I did notice a slight change in viscosity, I needed to adjust both the high and low jets to get a good tune.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Sep 5, 2014)

I agree. I simply can't see viscosity being the culprit.


----------



## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2014)

IDK, the stuff pours like molasses and is very hard to get out of whatever container ive used to measure it. Viscosity may be hard to measure, but the percentage difference in combusted oil, further divided by a 1:32 ratio is a very small number. I don't know the answer, so I can't do more than speculate


----------



## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2014)

The principle can be observed in the "leaning" out of a tune which happens by going to more oil. It is usually said that this occurs due to the restriction of flow in the jet due to the higher oil percentage rather than the 1% change in the amount of gas in 1:32 vs 1:50


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 5, 2014)

I don't know what causes it but it takes more H usually to keep rpms in check with belray over the others. Motul was a slight change that only a tach could notice. The K2 is pretty much no change and all the klotz I've run was no change.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 5, 2014)

Ive noticed the same thing with h1r in the mixing glass. Motul must have more emulsifiers as it mixes with fuel easily in my glass mixing container. H1r takes several mixings with fuel to get all the h1r out of the glass. As I stated earlier in the thread each oil has different emulsifiers and miscibility in which fuel reacts differently with each?


----------



## KG441c (Sep 5, 2014)

IMO it would be more favorable to have oil thats less miscible as the H1r is and mixes with the fuel less and stays behind on the surfaces instead of mixing with the fuel and being burned off


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 5, 2014)

I  oil threads ...........


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 5, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> The principle can be observed in the "leaning" out of a tune which happens by going to more oil. It is usually said that this occurs due to the restriction of flow in the jet due to the higher oil percentage rather than the 1% change in the amount of gas in 1:32 vs 1:50


Hey Jon,
I have seen a tune lean out with more oil in the mix (going from 32:1 to 24:1), but in this same context, the low speed jet also needed adjusting .............
With the Bel Ray its just the high jet ................

isn't there less oil in 1:50/1:32 , and 64% more fuel .............. I don't understand the 1% you are referring to ?


Hey, some things will allways remain a mystery - like what came first the chicken or the egg ? ........ or was that the Monkey and the bannanna ??


----------



## CR500 (Sep 5, 2014)

going to try some Motul 800 in this next gallons. Been hitting it hard helping people with firewood and I'm out of K2 and figure some Motul may be interesting... will give my 2 cents after a couple gallons.


----------



## wyk (Sep 5, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I  oil threads ...........



They can get slippery, though.


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 5, 2014)

reindeer said:


> They can get slippery, though.


Especially when Ester gets involved.






Was that my outside voice?!!!!!! Lol


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 5, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Especially when Ester gets involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WooT WooT


----------



## GCJenks204 (Sep 5, 2014)

I have read this thread on a daily basis for the last 4 weeks (yes I checked it has been ongoing that long) and I am absolutely in awe of the time and effort people have put in to sampling oils and fuel for their chainsaws. In no part of my imagination did I ever think I would find something like this so fascinating.


----------



## Mastermind (Sep 5, 2014)

GCJenks204 said:


> I have read this thread on a daily basis for the last 4 weeks (yes I checked it has been ongoing that long) and I am absolutely in awe of the time and effort people have put in to sampling oils and fuel for their chainsaws. In no part of my imagination did I ever think I would find something like this so fascinating.



Welcome to the insanity my friend.


----------



## CR500 (Sep 5, 2014)

Yep I absolutely love this stuff!!! Only if it paid haha 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2014)

Moparmyway said:


> Hey Jon,
> I have seen a tune lean out with more oil in the mix (going from 32:1 to 24:1), but in this same context, the low speed jet also needed adjusting .............
> With the Bel Ray its just the high jet ................
> 
> ...


50:1 is 98% gas, 33:1 is 97% gas. I can definitely tell a Hjet difference in 50:1 vs 32:1, but honestly never noticed a ljet change (prolly just being inattentive tho). I will again proclaim my ignorance of the correct reason H1R behaves this way


----------



## Moparmyway (Sep 6, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> 50:1 is 98% gas, 33:1 is 97% gas. I can definitely tell a Hjet difference in 50:1 vs 32:1, but honestly never noticed a ljet change (prolly just being inattentive tho). I will again proclaim my ignorance of the correct reason H1R behaves this way


 
Now I get it - thanks !!
I am also unsure why HR1 behaves the way it does, and its all just speculation from me as well.
To me, the carbon in the muffler (putting aside any goo due to slightly rich mixture settings) and not on the piston is the reason why I formed my speculated hypothesis ....... a small step above from guessignosis. I appreciate your involvement in this discussion, and have ordered some HR1 to try out based on yours and Randys experiences, I also have K2 coming to try out as well. I noticed the low speed jet needing tweaking more readily with 24:1 mix and Echo synthetic oil on stock 2 cycles ................ never ran mix other than 32:1 on my ported machines


----------



## mdavlee (Sep 9, 2014)

Motul 800 mixed with 93 in the 372.


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## KG441c (Sep 9, 2014)

Whats ur opinion?


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## mdavlee (Sep 9, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Whats ur opinion?


Does fine like K2. I'm almost out of the 800 I mixed up the other day.


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## RiverRat2 (Sep 9, 2014)

GCJenks204 said:


> I have read this thread on a daily basis for the last 4 weeks (yes I checked it has been ongoing that long) and I am absolutely in awe of the time and effort people have put in to sampling oils and fuel for their chainsaws. In no part of my imagination did I ever think I would find something like this so fascinating.


Dude!!! Put the Crack Pipe down and step away from the computer!!!!! Lolol!!!!

All in good fun,,,, and wanting to find out what works best,,, Oil Mixed in Gas is very good stuff!!!! and it is verwy Verwy, Important!!!!! if you run 2 smokes!!!


----------



## RiverRat2 (Sep 9, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Motul 800 mixed with 93 in the 372.


 
That looks pretty well coated/lubed up Mike!!!!! you ve been milling with that @ 32:1???


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## mdavlee (Sep 9, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> That looks pretty well coated/lubed up Mike!!!!! you ve been milling with that @ 32:1???


That's what I've been using in the 395. I took the 372 apart for an experiment.


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## Andyshine77 (Sep 10, 2014)

That looks nice and wet Mike! did I say that out loud?


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

Ya that looks really coated too. Dont think anyone could go wrong with Motul, k2, Belray, or r50


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

One thing common on all these oils are they r ester based and jaso fd. Not sure about the r50 though if its fd or ester?


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## blsnelling (Sep 10, 2014)

R50 is an ester. It was the first fad ester oil around here. We even had a salesman on the forum.


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## Flatie (Sep 10, 2014)

I would like to see a picture of pistion tops on saws running K2 and Motul. Ive seen Bel-ray pictures and im yet to see anything come close to the lack of carbon it delivers.
Mdavlee, did you get a picture of the top on the piston running motul?


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## CR500 (Sep 10, 2014)

A little Motul for you guys 


Sent from my non internal combustion device.


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## mdavlee (Sep 10, 2014)

Flatie said:


> I would like to see a picture of pistion tops on saws running K2 and Motul. Ive seen Bel-ray pictures and im yet to see anything come close to the lack of carbon it delivers.
> Mdavlee, did you get a picture of the top on the piston running motul?


No it hasn't had 2 whole tanks with it yet. I don't know when I'll mix more Motul up. I have some k2 here that I planned on running next. I know the 395 piston is starting to clean the carbon off it.


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## Mastermind (Sep 10, 2014)

Ran some K2 yesterday. 

Nothing locked up.


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

Mastermind said:


> Ran some K2 yesterday.






Mastermind said:


> Nothing locked up.


Lol!! Well what did it look like??? U know we waiting to hear!!


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 10, 2014)

I changed the oil in my pickup last night it was house brand napa 5w30 opcorn:


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## blsnelling (Sep 10, 2014)

Valvoline


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## HuskStihl (Sep 10, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> R50 is an ester. It was the first *fad ester* oil around here. We even had a salesman on the forum.


Bradley, Bradley, Bradley.............I sincerely hope u'r not implying that using bike racing oil in our prize chainsaws is anything other than the totally necessary duty each saw owner owes his Swedish or German "Cavallino Rampante". You of all people should understand chainsaw internals were never designed to run on "regular" 2-stroke oils


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## wyk (Sep 10, 2014)

blsnelling said:


> Valvoline



I've been using the oil from my last oil change...just swapped the filter. Oil here is.... wait for it: $30/qt for Mobil1 - http://www.halfords.ie/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/car-engine-oil/mobil-1-esp-0w40-1l


----------



## blsnelling (Sep 10, 2014)




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## RiverRat2 (Sep 10, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> That's what I've been using in the 395. I took the 372 apart for an experiment.


Well I think it would be safe to say you shouldn't have an oil related failure!!!


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## RiverRat2 (Sep 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Lol!! Well what did it look like??? U know we waiting to hear!!


Obviously he prolly doesnt have time to look,,,, besides, all he has to do is look here cause Mike is postnig/doing all the experimental stuff,,,, I'm betting the last thing tha monkley wants to do is pull one of his runners apart when hes working on a bazillion other peoples stuff

Just sayin


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

Im sure!! I try not bothering him too much. I dont think we will see a difference in the big 4 oils we have been discussing


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## CR500 (Sep 10, 2014)

Quick testimonial here my buddy has been using dirtbike oils in his saws and he is faller in my part of the woods. His saws are a 385 and 576. He was running Maxima K2 and H1R mostly due to the fact he has a couple RM125s that make me grin lol.

Anyways I was at his shop helping him fix his 385xp, he had a small issue with his metering level that was fixed fairly easy. Went to go get fuel out of his gallon jug and He was out. He grabs his gas can and starts to fill up his jug and He stops pouring at his usual mark and sets the can down. I was just looking at something and I noticed his can went from 3 gallons to around 1.75 gallons I asked him if he noticed this and he was startled so we had a qt jar and measured out 4 qts and there was still about a qt in his jug still!!!!

He mixes 45:1 and has been running his saws out of this jug for about 8 months. After tearing the mufflers of his saws in record time lol the cylinders looked perfect and had a coating of oil on the skirts. The saws had respectable compression and they run absolutely fantastic. After some math he was running close to 55 to 60:1 

My theory is that his container swelled up and he did not notice and was filling up his container to his gallon mark however with the swelling it was fitting more than a gallon of fuel in there.

After this I'm sold on dirtbike oil brands like Maxima and etc. 

I will let everyone think here lol.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


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## dl5205 (Sep 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> ...One thing common on all these oils are they r ester based and jaso fd...



I have a bottle of K2 and H1-R both in front of me. They may be jaso fd rated, but they don't advertise it on the bottle.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 10, 2014)

Im liking this Lucas oil
http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/lucas-semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> I have a bottle of K2 and H1-R both in front of me. They may be jaso fd rated, but they don't advertise it on the bottle.


Some companies choose not to have their oil tested but these oils we have been discussing all exceed Jaso fd


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 10, 2014)

The Lucas meets ISO GD and JASO FD and 
exceeds API TC


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## dl5205 (Sep 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Some companies choose not to have their oil tested but these oils we have been discussing all exceed Jaso fd



I'm sure they probably do. Like I said, I have the bottles in front of me. That means I have enough faith in their quality to be using them. I thought maybe in your research you had uncovered that they had been jaso rated. I had not seen that they were.


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> I'm sure they probably do. Like I said, I have the bottles in front of me. That means I have enough faith in their quality to be using them. I thought maybe in your research you had uncovered that they had been jaso rated. I had not seen that they were.


Look on their websites


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## dl5205 (Sep 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Look on their websites



I have.


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

I wouldnt use it if I were u. Send it to me!! Lol.


----------



## dl5205 (Sep 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> I wouldnt use it if I were u. Send it to me!! Lol.



Nice try. I'm not arguing with you. I thought maybe you knew something I didn't.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 10, 2014)

They exceed all ratings they just don't pay to be certified is my understanding


----------



## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> Nice try. I'm not arguing with you. I thought maybe you knew something I didn't.


Im not arguing . Hold on ill try and dig it back up and paste it


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

http://www.belray.com/sir_tech?page=1


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## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

Ill have to dig to find the k2 also but it is ive read. These companies dont waste their money to print on a bottle


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## dl5205 (Sep 10, 2014)

KG441c said:


> http://www.belray.com/sir_tech?page=1



Thank you for that link. I had looked at that Q&A page and missed it. Like I said, I wasn't trying to argue, I just couldn't find it. I've been using H1-R for about two years, and haven't burned anything up yet. I suppose that's all the rating I needed, anyway.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

I ask the maxima tech support Rick and he said it exceeds jaso fd but ive also read it somewhere but will have to keep digging to find it again.


----------



## KG441c (Sep 10, 2014)

Kenjax does the lucas burn clean? Coat well?


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 10, 2014)

Yes it burns very clean. I haven't tore any of mine down to see but Mike said that Hedgerow used it in that Dolmar 7900 and it was very well coated. Thats why i tried it. I mixed 2 gallons first to see if i liked it and i did so i bought a gallon of it for $30, it has almost no smell at all.


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## Moparmyway (Sep 11, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> I have a bottle of K2 and H1-R both in front of me. They may be jaso fd rated, but they don't advertise it on the bottle.


 Me too ........


----------



## RiverRat2 (Sep 11, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Yes it burns very clean. I haven't tore any of mine down to see but Mike said that Hedgerow used it in that Dolmar 7900 and it was very well coated. Thats why i tried it. I mixed 2 gallons first to see if i liked it and i did so i bought a gallon of it for $30, it has almost no smell at all.


did you buy it on line or local


----------



## sunfish (Sep 11, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> The Lucas meets ISO GD and JASO FD and
> exceeds API TC


I'm liking the Lucas so far...


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 11, 2014)

RiverRat2 said:


> did you buy it on line or local


I bought it local at O'Reilly auto parts


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## KG441c (Sep 11, 2014)

Its 9.99 qt. At my local oreillys


----------



## RiverRat2 (Sep 11, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> I bought it local at O'Reilly auto parts


may give it a try next year when my 2- 4L jugs of Motul 800 2T are gone,,,, What I like about the Motul is it will work in watercooled engines!!! and doesnt leave much carbon from what I see in my 044 & 046. Ive been through about 4 gal of mix so far


----------



## KenJax Tree (Sep 11, 2014)

KG441c said:


> Its 9.99 qt. At my local oreillys


Yeah its the same here. I had to have them order the gallon and it was there in 2 days.


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## RiverRat2 (Sep 12, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> Yeah its the same here. I had to have them order the gallon and it was there in 2 days.


yes sir, quite a savings by the gallon, basically you get an extra qt. for free or enough lube for 8 more gallons of mix @ 32:1 or 12.5 gal. of mix @ 50:1 and of course 10 more gal. @ 40:1,,, That is alot of sawin/whackin/trimmin for a 10 dollar savings on mix I would say...


----------



## Bearcub (Aug 22, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Randy if you want some motul I can send you a pint or so to try.



I hate to resurrect such an old thread but I have been reading it from the beginning but this particular bit caused a question and I didn't want to get crucified 
for starting "ANOTHER OIL THREAD" 

How much of a new oil or premix would you need to run to be able to accurately gauge the effect/cleanliness/dirtiness of that oil in a given saw?

I am sure it would vary from saw to saw depending on how clean or crappy the saw was when you switched oils but I am just looking for a guesstimate 

I was looking at some of the oils mentioned and most of them still seem to be the go-to oils for you port heads and mod guys

Obviously its cheaper per unit to buy a bigger bottle but who wants partly used bottles of oil gathering dust if they don't work for you

Is a pint enough?

A liter?

Sorry if this is a stupid question

Thanks

Michael


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## KG441c (Aug 22, 2015)

Do yourself a favor and use Motul 800, Klotz R50, or Maxima K2 at 32to1. Cant go wrong. Pick the one that your nose tolerates and then worry about important stuff like chain


----------



## Bearcub (Aug 22, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Do yourself a favor and use Motul 800, Klotz R50, or Maxima K2 at 32to1. Cant go wrong. Pick the one that your nose tolerates and then worry about important stuff like chain



None of those are available locally 

Or Bel Ray

I checked

So I'll order from Amazon 

I just didn't want to buy a two liter bottle of something I might not use

I appreciate the feedback

Regards 

Michael


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## KG441c (Aug 22, 2015)

Motul 800t is good oil and burns clean


----------



## Bearcub (Aug 22, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Motul 800t is good oil and burns clean



I haven't finished the thread

What was the consensus on Motul

Road Race or Off Road?


----------



## KG441c (Aug 22, 2015)

Off road


----------



## Bearcub (Aug 22, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Off road



Ordered off Amazon just now

Thanks again

Michael


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## KG441c (Aug 22, 2015)

U will like it. Imo tuning is far more important than oils. Any of those oils I mentioned are top notch


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## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

I have a large bottle of motul 800 off road I'm not using anymore due to awe fully smelly smokey conditions around my dyno. I tested a bunch of 660 jugs that I ran motul fuel at 40:1 I was concerned about carbon buildup after only five or six tanks. I decided not to use motul after the smell made me feel sick and the carbon was to much for my liking. I would have thought I'd never seen carbon buildup in a hard run dyno test.

I'm curious if anybody else has seen extra carbon when using motul 800 off road? I will say that I was thoroughly impressed with the film of oil in the cylinders and bottom end.


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## blsnelling (Aug 24, 2015)

Has anyone experimented with less oil than 32:1 in their 362C? I've heard reports that they run MUCH better with less oil, at least in a stock one. Anyone else experienced this?


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 24, 2015)

Never saw carbon but saw more black sticky goo than I cared for.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Has anyone experimented with less oil than 32:1 in their 362C? I've heard reports that they run MUCH better with less oil, at least in a stock one. Anyone else experienced this?



I tried 32 and 40 in the one you ported for me..only thing i noticed was it seemed to idle better and the throttle was maybe a smidge quicker with 40:1...in the wood speed didnt really seem any different..ill try again and pay more attention.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I tried 32 and 40 in the one you ported for me..only thing i noticed was it seemed to idle better and the throttle was maybe a smidge quicker with 40:1...in the wood speed didnt really seem any different..ill try again and pay more attention.


You might even try 50:1 if running a good full synthetic oil.


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## blsnelling (Aug 24, 2015)

@porsche965


----------



## MustangMike (Aug 24, 2015)

Brad, I've never run 32:1. but have been running the AMSOIL at 40:1 in all my saws w/o any problems. 

EXCEPT: I had to do the reset procedure when I got the saw back from Randy. Pretty sure he was running 32:1 in them at the time.

Wow, I have never seen a builder recommend 50:1!!!

The info I got from this site said the AMSOIL Saber provides more protection than the Stihl oil.


----------



## blsnelling (Aug 24, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Wow, I have never seen a builder recommend 50:1!!!


Only to try it and report back, based on the findings of another member.


----------



## Bearcub (Aug 24, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Brad, I've never run 32:1. but have been running the AMSOIL at 40:1 in all my saws w/o any problems.
> 
> EXCEPT: I had to do the reset procedure when I got the saw back from Randy. Pretty sure he was running 32:1 in them at the time.
> 
> ...


 
Well for better or for worse I have a liter of Motul on the way; and, a jug of Maxima as well

I got cross ways with the Amazon vendor because they tripled the shipping on my order without telling me

$16.00 to ship a $20.oo bottle of oil

I cancelled the Motul and ordered the Maxima and then the vendor e-mailed, explained that shipping to Alaska was always automatically increased to a set minimum and asked if I still wanted it if they shipped it at the origianlly quoted rate

I told them to go ahead

So now I have a couple oils inbound to play with

Like MustangMike I am currently running Saber at 40:1 in my two mostly stock saws 

I have never pulled the top end off any of my saws but peeking into the ports things look ok

I just get a lot of smoke for the first minute or so and a LOT of soot as well as soggy mufflers

Both saws run a bit rich but clean up well in the cut on larger 12"-15" poplar rounds

Part of this hobby I love is the experimentation

Cheaper than being a gear head again and blowing up a V-8 when you goof

Best

Michael


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 24, 2015)

I am liking K2 ............. seems crispy and pleasant all around. More so than others.


----------



## KenJax Tree (Aug 24, 2015)

K2 is my favorite oil but its too expensive


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

I dont even bother with these expensive motorcycle oils anymore its a waste of money , auto supermarket has lucas oil for 27 a gallon there , i dont think theres two sh!ts of a difference honestly..its cool to compare if thats what your into...but to use those fancy oils on the regular is entirely too expensive to reap the benefit... if there even is one.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I dont even bother with these expensive motorcycle oils anymore its a waste of money , auto supermarket has lucas oil for 27 a gallon there , i dont think theres two sh!ts of a difference honestly..its cool to compare if thats what your into...but to use those fancy oils on the regular is entirely too expensive to reap the benefit if there even is one.


I like Lucas ............ it was crispy as well............... plus its blue !!!
Never seen it be dry though ................... what mix ratio are you running ?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> I like Lucas ............ it was crispy as well............... plus its blue !!!
> Never seen it be dry though ................... what mix ratio are you running ?



I know this dude who does quite a bit of milling for mantles , i was boozin with him last fall and he asked me about a new saw to mill with and was set on a 660..i told him a 395 would be a better choice..didnt see him for a few weeks..he bought an echo 8000 for 850 bucks or somewhere around there and was pretty happy with it ( i didnt even bother to piss in his wheaties )..i tried talkin him into a muffler mod and 32:1 with a richer tune and he couldnt be bothered..he has milled an assload of wood on 50:1 since last fall with the limiter caps untouched and the saw still runs and cuts with good compression....people totally overthink this stuff...i was guilty too.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I know this dude who does quite a bit of milling for mantles , i was boozin with him last fall and he asked me about a new saw to mill with and was set on a 660..i told him a 395 would be a better choice..didnt see him for a few weeks..he bought an echo 8000 and was pretty happy with it ( i didnt even bother to piss in his wheaties )..i tried talkin him into a muffler mod and 32:1 with a richer tune and he couldnt be bothered..he has milled an assload of wood on 50:1 since last fall with the limiter caps untouched and the saw still runs and cuts with good compression....people totally overthink this stuff...i was guilty too.


Hater ...............................


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Hater ...............................



Its da troof dawg..some swallow it well..some dont.

Oh..i forgot..his chains would probably cut faster on backwards..when they get blunt he just pushes harder too.


----------



## Moparmyway (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Its da troof dawg..some swallow it well..some dont.


So ......... you running 50:1 nowadays eh ??


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> So ......... you running 50:1 nowadays eh ??



40..only because of the stuff ive read here.

Just like my ported 2172 was gonna blow havin it tuned around 13800-14000..that hasnt happened yet..i lost track on the gallons a few years ago that have been ran through that saw...people should just use/do what they like..chainsaw forums fark with your head.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

When randy had all the groupies runnin 32:1 with belray.. it was "the" oil to run on AS.. and then some dude says its garbage..now everyone quit buyin it and all of a sudden discovered some problem with their chainsaw that they never mentioned before , or were just too scared to challenge the "man"...or so it seems.

I ran the piss out of belray at 32:1 for quite a while because i got a few free gallons that were headed for the garbage from an estate sale and never noticed a single thing wrong with it other than the odd tuning with it ( which it seems everyone noticed ) i didnt care for the smell but i didn't change my tampon prior to using it either..maybe that would have helped..

I say buy the oils you have access to and can afford or just use whatever gives you a boner..it doesnt matter to 99.9% of average chainsaw users.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Aug 24, 2015)

I like to run oil you guys can't get so i can mess with your heads


----------



## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm not jumping on the heavy oil band wagon. Ok squeaking 50:1 might be a little light but 40:1 is plenty. Why would a ported saw need more oil? Imho correct fuel is more important. Keeping the saw cool is done by keeping the correct amount of fuel flowing through the saw. Higher compression, higher torque and higher rpms make more heat due to the rings being pressed harder against the cylinder and more load being put on the connecting rod bearings and crank bearings. 

A ported saw flows better and in return uses more air and fuel. The increased air and fuel is helping to cool down the increased heat from higher compression and torque. I've tested and torn down a lage number of saws. 50:1 has oil everywhere 40:1 has a bit of excess oil in the exhaust and anything with higher oil content than 40:1 is just way overdoing it IMO. 
Telling a sloppy fuel mixer 32:1 or 40:1 will most likely always keep him in the safe range. Telling a sloppy fuel mixer 50:1 might get him in trouble. His sloppiness might have him at 45:1 sometimes and or at 55:1 sometimes. If you accurately mix your fuel then 40:1 is probably more than enough.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm not jumping on the heavy oil band wagon. Ok squeaking 50:1 might be a little light but 40:1 is plenty. Why would a ported saw need more oil? Imho correct fuel is more important. Keeping the saw cool is done by keeping the correct amount of fuel flowing through the saw. Higher compression, higher torque and higher rpms make more heat due to the rings being pressed harder against the cylinder and more load being put on the connecting rod bearings and crank bearings.
> 
> A ported saw flows better and in return uses more air and fuel. The increased air and fuel is helping to cool down the increased heat from higher compression and torque. I've tested and torn down a lage number of saws. 50:1 has oil everywhere 40:1 has a bit of excess oil in the exhaust and anything with higher oil content than 40:1 is just way overdoing it IMO.
> Telling a sloppy fuel mixer 32:1 or 40:1 will most likely always keep him in the safe range. Telling a sloppy fuel mixer 50:1 might get him in trouble. His sloppiness might have him at 45:1 sometimes and or at 55:1 sometimes. If you accurately mix your fuel then 40:1 is probably more than enough.



That makes entirely too much cents for this forum.


----------



## HuskStihl (Aug 24, 2015)

I wouldn't run 32:1 on an Autotune saw. Especially bel ray. That being said, my saws ran great on belray at 32:1, and the insides always looked perfect. I'm currently experimenting with yamalube, but bought another bottle of h1r to use when I'm out of Yama. If you have small, flat blade screwdriver skills, it's a great product.
That being said, I totally agree with Ryan. If folks remember to put any sort of oil in their gas at any sort of reasonable ratio (especially the PSP'ers), and tune ballpark OK, they will be unlikely to ever burn up their saw.


----------



## sunfish (Aug 24, 2015)

I missed the Bel Ray at 32:1 memo...


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I wouldn't run 32:1 on an Autotune saw. Especially bel ray. That being said, my saws ran great on belray at 32:1, and the insides always looked perfect. I'm currently experimenting with yamalube, but bought another bottle of h1r to use when I'm out of Yama. If you have small, flat blade screwdriver skills, it's a great product.
> That being said, I totally agree with Ryan. If folks remember to put any sort of oil in their gas at any sort of reasonable ratio (especially the PSP'ers), and tune ballpark OK, they will be unlikely to ever burn up their saw.



Flat blade skrewdriver skillz are gonna be a lost art.

I ran it at 32 in my 241 and it seemed to run fine..idk..i dont have any teef , dont listen to anything i say.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I wouldn't run 32:1 on an Autotune saw. Especially bel ray. That being said, my saws ran great on belray at 32:1, and the insides always looked perfect. I'm currently experimenting with yamalube, but bought another bottle of h1r to use when I'm out of Yama. If you have small, flat blade screwdriver skills, it's a great product.
> That being said, I totally agree with Ryan. If folks remember to put any sort of oil in their gas at any sort of reasonable ratio (especially the PSP'ers), and tune ballpark OK, they will be unlikely to ever burn up their saw.



I forgot to add that at 32:1 with belray there was a ton of spooge comin out of my muffler ports at that ratio no matter what the tune was..seemed excessive to me..i just mixed it that rich because it said to on the bottle .


----------



## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I forgot to add that at 32:1 with belray there was a ton of spooge comin out of my muffler ports at that ratio no matter what the tune was..seemed excessive to me..i just mixed it that rich because it said to on the bottle .


I've seen oil spillage out of the muffler with 40:1 using motul 800


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I've seen oil spillage out of the muffler with 40:1 using motul 800



So runnin 50:1 in a ported saw would be safe because of how thick these oils are ?


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## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> So runnin 50:1 in a ported saw would be safe because of how thick these oils are ?


Haha. I'm not bold enough to make that statement but I think 40:1 is more than enough. 50:1 IMHO is sufficient if your using a good synthetic blend oil. Nothing wrong with the Stihl gray bottle


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## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

The amount of oil and fuel usage increase in a ported engine probably gets 20-50% more oil per cycle from the increased air flow and tuning.

I need a cheap azz saw to do fuel tests with. I'll load it down on the dyno and keep leaning out the oil till it blows.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Haha. I'm not bold enough to make that statement but I think 40:1 is more than enough. 50:1 IMHO is sufficient if your using a good synthetic blend oil. Nothing wrong with the Stihl gray bottle



I usually dont take part in these oil threads because id rather hump sheep , but im honestly gonna push my luck in the name of science and run 50:1 in one of my ported saws with one of these thick motorcycle oils and see what happens. , if it blows oh well ..


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## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I usually dont take part in these oil threads because id rather hump sheep , but im honestly gonna push my luck in the name of science and run 50:1 in one of my ported saws with one of these thick motorcycle oils and see what happens. , if it blows oh well ..


If it blows keep me out of the cussing. Lol


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 24, 2015)

chadihman said:


> If it blows keep me out of the cussing. Lol



Well a guy ive talked with on here has done it with amsoil and nothin ever happened and he cuts his fair share of wood...bel-ray is so damn thick..ill try it.


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## chadihman (Aug 24, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Well a guy ive talked with on here has done it with amsoil and nothin ever happened and he cuts his fair share of wood...bel-ray is so damn thick..ill try it.


Honestly I'd have no problem trying it.


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 25, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Well a guy ive talked with on here has done it with amsoil and nothin ever happened and he cuts his fair share of wood...bel-ray is so damn thick..ill try it.


I lost s piston in my first hybrid ,50 to 1 h1 r ,may have been a fluke deal though. 32 to 1 with mobil mx2 t does not leave black spooge and has a wider tuning range over thicker dirt bike oils


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## HuskStihl (Aug 25, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I lost s piston in my first hybrid ,50 to 1 h1 r ,may have been a fluke deal though. 32 to 1 with* mobil mx2 t* does not leave black spooge and has a wider tuning range over thicker dirt bike oils


Unicorn oil


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 25, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Unicorn oil


Even leaves rainbows when spill it in puddles


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 25, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I lost s piston in my first hybrid ,50 to 1 h1 r ,may have been a fluke deal though. 32 to 1 with mobil mx2 t does not leave black spooge and has a wider tuning range over thicker dirt bike oils



Come to think of it..that schmidt is so damn thick i probably have mixed it at 50:1 if i figure how much of it was stuck to the walls of my ratio-rite.


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## Andyshine77 (Aug 25, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I dont even bother with these expensive motorcycle oils anymore its a waste of money , auto supermarket has lucas oil for 27 a gallon there , i dont think theres two sh!ts of a difference honestly..its cool to compare if thats what your into...but to use those fancy oils on the regular is entirely too expensive to reap the benefit... if there even is one.



There is a big difference, but likely not noticeable in most saws. 

I myself never cared for h1r, made my saws behave poorly. I could care less about the cost of oil personally it's cheap insurance. I would never run anything Lucas produces, especially the water based 2 cycle stuff. But what do I know I've never been in a saw, let alone port one.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 25, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> There is a big difference, but likely not noticeable in most saws.
> 
> I myself never cared for h1r, made my saws behave poorly. I could care less about the cost of oil personally it's cheap insurance. I would never run anything Lucas produces, especially the water based 2 cycle stuff. But what do I know I've never been in a saw, let alone port one.



Awesome , ive never ran a chainsaw for days on end..thats why i dont know anything either.

Theres a big difference between 27 dollars a gallon and 60 or 70 dollars a gallon to me..im not a wealthy guy.

But...i dont tear my saw down after a few tanks of fuel to see what the oil did , so i suppose you super smart oil guru's are correct , i just know that ive never fried a saw on any oil...lucky ?..maybe i am.


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## Andyshine77 (Aug 25, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Awesome , ive never ran a chainsaw for days on end..thats why i dont know anything either.
> 
> Theres a big difference between 27 dollars a gallon and 60 or 70 dollars a gallon to me..im not a wealthy guy.
> 
> But...i dont tear my saw down after a few tanks of fuel to see what the oil did , so i suppose you super smart oil guru's are correct , i just know that ive never fried a saw on any oil...lucky ?..maybe i am.




I don't tear them down all the time either, but have been in saw ran on cheap oil and lean ratios, there is a big difference, especially in the long run. Most here don't run their saws enough to see a big difference, I'll give you that. Really the cost of oil per gallon of mix is nothing IMHO.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Aug 25, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> I don't tear them down all the time either, but have been in some saw ran on cheap oil and lean ratios, there is a big difference, especially in the long run. Most here don't run their saws enough to see a big difference.



I could never argue with you guys on what these oils do on a scientific level , i dont know the first thing about it..i just know what works from a users standpoint and nothing more , im sure maxima k2 is "better" oil than lucas..but..if a chainsaw lives for a 100 gallons of oil ( that was just a guess i have no clue , only an example ) at 27 dollars a gallon vs 70 dollars thats a lot of money to me.


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