# Might as well have been a cliff



## PTS (Nov 21, 2005)

I looked at a real crappy job today. The tree that they want removed is on a side hill that is so steep that you can not physically walk up it without using your hands on the ground and helping yourself along. They at some point put limestone rocks down sporadically which are all loose making the terrain horrible. Right below the tree is a large dock and a boat that is stored for the winter. There is absolutely no way to get any equipment close to the tree so climbing is the only option. Their driveway looks out at the very top of the tree which is 80-90 ft. tall and that is as close as you can get with the equipment. Also there is no tall trees around that you could hook up a zip line.

So here is my dilemma. How do you get the tree from the ground to the chipper safely. I thought about skidding them up the hill with a wench but the loose rock will certainly roll down and hit the dock or boat. I thought I could wait until the river freezes, risk driving my chipper truck to the job on the ice which is around 2000 feet from the nearest boat ramp or bite the bullet and hall the whole tree up the hill using the steep steps.

The river sound like the way to go as far as ease, however, the risk of the ice is scary. The tree is around 5 feet from the water so it would be convenient. 

Going the other route you have to hall a whole tree up a very steep set of steps and find yourself out of commission after one trip. To top it all off the tree has a base of around 45 inches diameter. Nice huh. 

Crane is out... to far away and house in the way

I am sure you would all like pictures but some bonehead left his camera at the office and the drive is a considerable distance to make another trip.

Just thought you all may have ran across similar problems and came up with a possible solution


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## rbtree (Nov 21, 2005)

PTS I thought about skidding them up the hill with a wench but ......[/QUOTE said:


> :Eye: Can I hire her when you're done?!!
> 
> Sorry, I just had to laugh at that one....
> 
> ...


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## PTS (Nov 21, 2005)

Sorry I totally missed that. (wench)


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## Jim1NZ (Nov 21, 2005)

Helicopter!!!


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## Lumberjack (Nov 21, 2005)

How thick will the ice get? I doubt you insurance would cover your truck falling through the ice, I could be wrong, it would be a funny claim to explain though. 

A picture would help alot, if you could drop the tree in the water, then skid it up the hill (with what depends on them pictures). Perhaps smaller sections. A sled would be nice to skid peices up with as well.

Pics!


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## Mike Barcaskey (Nov 21, 2005)

fish habitat


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## Lumberjack (Nov 21, 2005)

Thats what I was thinking, flop it in the water and use a john boat and or hip wadders to get everything below the water. 

But then you got that boat and shed down there....


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## PTS (Nov 21, 2005)

The dock is totally in the way and so it the boat. This part of the river is a huge boating recreational area so stuff in the water wouldn't be permitted. There is a group that governs the area. Multi million dollar homes in a lot of cases.


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## rbtree (Nov 21, 2005)

Here's two videos. Notice, in the first one, the load is not yet up against the pulley, thus the need for a back line to hold the pulley back. (a similar high lead logging operation uses a carriage assembly that can be locked anywhere onto the mainline. The back line would be the haulback.

Warning, these are large files, sorry. Windows Movie Maker garbles the audio when it compresses the files and changes the format. I've gotta learn how to work with videos. Better software is needed. Ulead? Premiere? I know it's pricey...

susette d, misc. 011.avi

susette d, misc. 010.avi


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 21, 2005)

"Army Rigging Manual"......Hahaha!, come on Tom! Just hire a logger.


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## treeman82 (Nov 21, 2005)

Why not skid it across / down the river with a snow mobile and or a quad?


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## treeseer (Nov 21, 2005)

First things first. what is the client's goal? Is there a way to meet that goal without removing the tree? If it's viewshed, then window-pune, etc.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 22, 2005)

Tom, you act like a logger knows nothing about setting riggin. Think twice manual boy! The logger was slinging riggin way before the arbo industry was even in existence. The old loggers were like ants. They could move anything with some cable and a couble of blocks and didn't need a manual. If you want some real experience go work on a yarder setting, or a high lead show. I have, and learned the hard way, but at least I can say I've really done it! How about you big Mouth!


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## Sizzle-Chest (Nov 22, 2005)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Tom, you act like a logger knows nothing about setting riggin. Think twice manual boy! The logger was slinging riggin way before the arbo industry was even in existence. The old loggers were like ants. They could move anything with some cable and a couble of blocks and didn't need a manual. If you want some real experience go work on a yarder setting, or a high lead show. I have, and learned the hard way, but at least I can say I've really done it! How about you big Mouth!



actually, you are the one who sounds like you know nothing about setting rigging. those old loggers you speak of actually left the type of trees PTS is describing. outlaws/residuals were too difficult to take out either safely or successfully. And i'm unclear why you think that having worked in the bite makes you an authority on complicated tree removals in urban environments. Tom is making a very good point that the two jobs have very different applications. Obviously a logger would have less success removing that tree than an arborist or else home-owners would be calling timber fallers to remove trees.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 22, 2005)

rbtree said:


> Yep, hillside jobs can be a challenge! If you can fix an elevated anchor at the top of the hill, you could set up a travelling carriage on a fixed line, anchored to the trunk of your target tree (leave it up as high as is feasible), tension the line, and pull up the loads on it, using a travelling block, with a separate line. You'll need a back line to keep the carriage down the hill and allow the load to be winched up into the carriage. I'll put up a video for ya, give me a few minutes.
> 
> Here's a pic, plus a link to an old thread with a discusssion and another pic
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=17201



For your information Tom, rbtree's post describes what a portable yarder is! I've worked under a pick-up towable unit several times. That little yarder would do exactly what this guy wants to do. Get out your manual Tom, you can find out how and where to cut the tail holds, where to hang the blocks and then start running his haywire! hahaha! Good Luck and Good Reading!


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## rbtree (Nov 22, 2005)

Tom, here's that link, but it hasn't worked for some time now...

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/logging_advisor/manual/yarding/cableyardingsystem.html

Dennis, you asked for the grilling that Tom gave you by the way you came on in such a flip way...


And yes, that Simpson winch came from Tom, who has been an innovator and leading edge arborist for over a quarter century. Ther is no doubt that no one has had more to offer those of us with lots to learn than Tom, and since the spread of the worldwide web, his audience has mushroomed. 

Now you idiots kiss and make up, ya hear!!


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## a_lopa (Nov 22, 2005)

good thread!! dumb ass loggers i love it!!!!


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 22, 2005)

Sizzle-Chest said:


> actually, you are the one who sounds like you know nothing about setting rigging. those old loggers you speak of actually left the type of trees PTS is describing. outlaws/residuals were too difficult to take out either safely or successfully. And i'm unclear why you think that having worked in the bite makes you an authority on complicated tree removals in urban environments. Tom is making a very good point that the two jobs have very different applications. Obviously a logger would have less success removing that tree than an arborist or else home-owners would be calling timber fallers to remove trees.



Many, many outlaws have been cut! and the ones I know about were cut by timberfallers not arbos! You know sizzel chest, some people just won't make a pimple on a fallers a$$, so what's your experience? BTW sizzel, I've done quite a few residential tree jobs, jacked and pulled many big trees, work under the yarders and helicopters, and know a little about slingin rigging. I wonder, does living in Oregon make you an authority about anything? hahaha! Later


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 22, 2005)

rbtree said:


> Dennis, you asked for the grilling that Tom gave you by the way you came on in such a flip way...




No biggy Roger! Tom just gets a little up tight when you teaze him about his Army Manual! hahaha!


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## Ekka (Nov 22, 2005)

You know, there was thread in the Chainsaw section about tractors in the woodlot, it was moved from commercial tree care to there although it has stuff all to do with chainsaws and should be in the equipment thread.

The same pack of clowns made snide remarks to which I engaged, there was outcry, dont spam our thread, get lost Ekka, and now look at the clowns, always the same lot.

This is a real problem the poster has here and we want solutions not bickering. Personally, I over quote these types of jobs so if I do get them then there's plenty of money to find solutions ... and a helicopter is a sensible choice.

You have to rig the tree down, poor rope guy is gonna go butt up for sure, debri and rocks etc are gonna slide down hill. The right way to do this is get 2 climbers in that tree and start rigging slings for a chopper. He's only gotta fly them 50' up hill. If the job was bid correctly the money would be there for this. If it was bid for an unsafe hillside event ... you're a fool. Why risk your workers, your crew to an unknown?

I watch so many other industries in difficult locations and guess what ... they get the machinery in to do the job. But here we are trying to do what, save money for the customer to bust ourselves to get a stupid tree up a hill.

Open the yellow pages and look up some helo guys etc and run your business in such a fashion that when its such a bad job you can walk away or do it right. You got a 90' tree with 45" DBH.

Listen to what you are saying, boat, dock, million dollar houses, recreational waterfront area ... and your thinking of rooting around on a cliff? Mate, see the light, get a helo or walk away.


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## PTS (Nov 22, 2005)

treeman82 said:


> Why not skid it across / down the river with a snow mobile and or a quad?



My personnel manager and I discussed this very thing and decided that this is a good possibility too. The problem is mother nature. Is the ice going to freeze and hard enough to be on it. Last few winters around here have been very mild. The ice is no doubt the way to go if it freezes. But the question is what if it don't.


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## PTS (Nov 22, 2005)

treeseer said:


> First things first. what is the client's goal? Is there a way to meet that goal without removing the tree? If it's viewshed, then window-pune, etc.




Tree is completely dead. They blamed it on the person who sprayed their hill side to keep the grass and weeds from growing. Did it three years ago and tree hasn't leafed sense.


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## PTS (Nov 22, 2005)

Ekka said:


> get a helo or walk away.




The drop zone is fairly flat. It is almost like a landing on the bottom of the hill. The rocks are stable where they are but skidding something across them may cause them to loosen and roll. 

I try to stay positive on here but insinuating that I would put myself or my guys lives in danger is outrageous! Its is a lot like being a cop.... The number one goal for the day is everyone going home safe.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 22, 2005)

Ekka said:


> You know, there was thread in the Chainsaw section about tractors in the woodlot, it was moved from commercial tree care to there although it has stuff all to do with chainsaws and should be in the equipment thread.
> QUOTE]
> Ekka, where are you getting your information from?
> The thread was no more moved than flying to the moon and back.
> ...


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## Trinity Honoria (Nov 22, 2005)

PTS said:


> The drop zone is fairly flat. It is almost like a landing on the bottom of the hill. The rocks are stable where they are but skidding something across them may cause them to loosen and roll.



#1. no one told me Hell's Kitchen was up and running again... i apologize to PTS, even tho it isn't my fault... i'm just embarrassed for the schlumps who turned this into a battle field...

#2. it seems to me, the simple home owner, that the only way you are going to get the solid advice from the experienced folks here is to get the pictures... i realize you said it was quite a distance, but you've said in the past your wife is a wonderful support! could she go & take the pictures??? there's so much knowledge among the people here (even the riff raff), they could have the very solution you need, but without pictures, estimates of distances, etc, they're shooting in the dark...


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## alanarbor (Nov 22, 2005)

Helicopter seems like a good idea. Or can you get a crane with enough stick to reach? 

Whatever you come up with make sure you've got enough money in the job. Be the expert that gets paid really, really well for highly technical dangerous work. 

This is not the kind of job to pinch pennies on.

Photos will still really help everyone to help you.


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## Stumper (Nov 22, 2005)

PTS, Helicopters, cranes and other pleasant possibilities aside---If the river doesn't freeze to run a quad on..... why not tow the stuff out on the river with a boat? We are talking about a tedious task and whatever route you go is going to be costly for both time and equipment. Figure it as best you can and double or triple the price. If you get it take your time and have fun with it.


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## Ax-man (Nov 22, 2005)

Why does the tree have to be hauled off at all ?? Can't the tree be left on the hillside to control soil erosion. If the thing is dead it is going to fall on it's own anyway, just give Mother Nature a helping hand to make sure it doesn't hit the boat house and let Mother Nature take care of the disposal of it. 

Larry


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## Sizzle-Chest (Nov 22, 2005)

i dont think a helicopter is really an option. from what i know, they cannot maintain the kind of precise stability required to pull wood out like that. even a little bit of helicopter movement means a lot of movement on the bottom of the line.


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## gumneck (Nov 22, 2005)

Couldn't help but to put my worthless two cents in. Seems like the first step is to advise the owners to move the boat at whatever cost that may incur to them in an effort to minimize damage. Then maybe you could move enough large rocks out of a pathway for hauling up limbs/debris. Once cleared, make a surface with cheap crooked 2x4's and plywood that all this debris and logs could be skidded across.


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## Sizzle-Chest (Nov 22, 2005)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Many, many outlaws have been cut! and the ones I know about were cut by timberfallers not arbos! You know sizzel chest, some people just won't make a pimple on a fallers a$$, so what's your experience? BTW sizzel, I've done quite a few residential tree jobs, jacked and pulled many big trees, work under the yarders and helicopters, and know a little about slingin rigging. I wonder, does living in Oregon make you an authority about anything? hahaha! Later



read your post again, you said that old time loggers could fall anything. am i wrong?



Dennis Cahoon said:


> Tom, you act like a logger knows nothing about setting riggin. Think twice manual boy! The logger was slinging riggin way before the arbo industry was even in existence. The *old *loggers were like ants. They could move *anything *with some cable and a couble of blocks and didn't need a manual. If you want some real experience go work on a yarder setting, or a high lead show. I have, and learned the hard way, but at least I can say I've really done it! How about you big Mouth!



now, read my post again and see if i claimed to be an authority on logging. then check to see if i said that an aroborists falls timber. 



Sizzle-Chest said:


> actually, you are the one who sounds like you know nothing about setting rigging. those old loggers you speak of actually left the type of trees PTS is describing. outlaws/residuals were too difficult to take out either safely or successfully. And i'm unclear why you think that having worked in the bite makes you an authority on complicated tree removals in urban environments. Tom is making a very good point that the two jobs have very different applications. Obviously a logger would have less success removing that tree than an arborist or else home-owners would be calling timber fallers to remove trees.



quote this


"Man who go to bed with hard problem wake up with solution in hand."


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## fmueller (Nov 22, 2005)

Say would that happen to be around Delhi? Why not pull chunks up the hill with a cone and a tractor? Doesn't look like we're gonna get much if any ice around here this winter and even if we did I would'nt put a chipper on it. Fish habitat was a good idea too.


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## rbtree (Nov 22, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Ekka, Got any pics of your crew doing helo work or is this just hot air?
> 
> I've never seen a helo doing residential tree work. Does anybody have any pics of their crew doing residential tree work using a helo?
> 
> I have seen videos of logging companies using helos but never an arborist.




I know a guy who did some heli work in the Bay Area-residential neighborhood, back in the 80's.. The picks were done crane style with the tree standing!!! However, i'm told the FAA won't allow such activity these days. 

About 12 years ago, at Seattle Golf Club, a bunch of trees were picked up after being felled and choppered to the landing...same as is done in the woods routinely.

If you can get a barge in, that would be the best solution, something we've done in Seattle's rich shoreline communities. You can load a container and chipper right on the barge if needed. With a dead tree, should be no need for a chipper.


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## Thirdpete (Nov 22, 2005)

I think someone said it, but a strong anchor at the top of the hill and maybe a skid-steer to pull the debris up the hill. As far as logs go, 45 DBH may have to be chunked down in tiny pieces. I wouldn't want to risk a log rolling down into the boat/dock, but maybe cutting small wedges would help.

Sounds like a time-consuming and dangerous job. Good luck.


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## Old Monkey (Nov 22, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> I've never seen a helo doing residential tree work. Does anybody have any pics of their crew doing residential tree work using a helo?




Marin County Arborists and a few other companies in the SF Bay Area have used helicopters in their residential removals. I'll look for pictures. I think they used a Columbia Sky Crane. Its an expensive thing to do but it can be done. 

PTS - How about building a plywood chute down the hill to keep rocks and debris from being loosened. I used a construction crews demo chute one time for a removal with a rig parked at the bottom. It still leaves you the problem of what to do with the material at the bottom. If it were me doing the job, I would try to build some sort of containment fence below the tree to keep falling debris from damaging things.

Dan - Why so bitter these days? No one can win in these e-squabbles, so why try.


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## Thor's Hammer (Nov 22, 2005)

Ive used a helicopter for moving timber and trees. I wouldent have paid for it myself, But the forestry commision were quite happy too. Youd be surprised how delicate they can be when picking stuff up. we just choked the trees with a sling like a crane job, one quick cut at the base and off she went. Was a bellranger of some sort I think.
Round here the use 'copters a lot to haul gravel and stone up the sides of mountains for trail repairs, Its not as expensive as you think, consideing how much they will move.


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## P_woozel (Nov 22, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Ekka, Got any pics of your crew doing helo work or is this just hot air?
> 
> I've never seen a helo doing residential tree work. Does anybody have any pics of their crew doing residential tree work using a helo?
> 
> I have seen videos of logging companies using helos but never an arborist.


Columbia helicopters has done lifts twice in the last 20 years in the Puget Sound area. Getting a qualified helo company isnt the problem, its getting a permit to do it. the thing about jobs like this is, often the customer isnt willing to fork over the cash to do it in aprudent manner, and the big hitch is there will always be some jackass who will savage the job out for .30 on the dollar. Walk away, even if youre starving you stand a chance of losing money.


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## darkstar (Nov 22, 2005)

Hire extra muscle and man up that hill . We got to haul wood up cliffs/ embankments all the time just alot of grunt work .


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## Ekka (Nov 22, 2005)

See, out of the woodwork jumps the same old with their worldly experience of what is possible and what is not along with their usual snide remarks. Did you all get bored with Tom?

Gypo, this is the first post of yours in that thread, stop making trouble. Why do you get in here and tell lies?



Gypo Logger said:


> maybe I should have started this on the logging forum but it so much more quaint over here.
> John


 It was moved.

Secondly, what's this rubbish,


Gypo Logger said:


> Ekka, before everybody starts calling you Ekka the Pekka, I'm gonna give you some well meaning advice.
> Why don't you start forming your own opinion about AS as opposed to that of AS rejects otherwise known as treehosers? It's the likes of you that come here to make trouble. plus you haven't been around long enough to know what's going on. So as you can see, you need schooling in more fields than one.
> I mean if you were actually even funny once in a while or simply showed that you just might have a personality, things would be different.



Trimmed, DDM, Begley, Darin this guys spamming this thread, baiting members and discriminating against a whole group of others and needs to be sent back to the chainsaw thread.

Not too long ago there were even pics in our Aborage of chopper removals.

If there is a flat spot on the side of that cliff it is a very good alternative. And so may be a crane full sticked just dragging it up but dislodging rocks etc may be likely.

The way you described the jobsite PTS was you had to lean over and grab the ground to get up the site.... I assumed that was all the way down to the water and the tree making it rather unforgivable terrain to work on. Now the tree is dead which raises the stakes even more.

Other options are a barge mounted crane etc.


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## darkstar (Nov 22, 2005)

I disagree. He says there are stairs there . I say quarter the log and carry it, by hand up the "tiny steps" . Now if getting it down without damaing the boat house is a major problem thats different . A good climber should be able to handle that however .
Ill be interested to see what he does .


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## Old Monkey (Nov 22, 2005)

darkstar said:


> Ill be interested to see what he does .




Me too. I love challenges like this. There is always a way.


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## Buzzlightyear (Nov 22, 2005)

I've felled and burnt trees on ice less than 18"'s thick 10 years ago quite safely. I'd say your best option is dismantle it, block it and have enough grunts to carry it all up the steps. Just have plenty of $$$$'s on it


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## Thor's Hammer (Nov 22, 2005)

Old Monkey said:


> Me too. I love challenges like this. There is always a way.


Sometimes you have to just do it UGLY


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## fmueller (Nov 22, 2005)

Helicopter logging in Iowa, I may be mistaken but I think that would be a first. Also if its where I'm thinking, if you can get a crane on a flat bottomed fishing boat it might just work    . Although I wish I could see some of those ideas in action, Iowa isn't a likely place for it. I think Thor is right, just gotta get ugly with it.


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## tawilson (Nov 22, 2005)

So nobody has figured out how to burn a tree in place and just leave a pile of ashes?


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## chicken89 (Nov 22, 2005)

is it possible to get a boat with a crane on it? cut quazi small pieces to fall into water then crane them out? just a youngster brainstorming


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## darkstar (Nov 22, 2005)

SOMOFA????? .... you all do wrong to diss EKKA ... he is one awesome contributor .... thats MR .. EKKA to you all and me .... lets geve it a break yo DARK


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## PTS (Nov 22, 2005)

I think everyone needs to pull them out and see whos is bigger and get on with it.


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## Old Monkey (Nov 22, 2005)

You know of course that digital images make everything look smaller. Let me see where's that scanner...woooo that's cold, should've warmed it up a bit...OK the computer seems to be having a problem with a worm or virus. I guess that's not going to work.


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## DDM (Nov 22, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> I bet snow mobiles dragging larger pieces across the ice and fires to burn the smaller stuff would work out be the easiest and cheapest way to go.



Okay,But I'm betting the logs will float.


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## Ekka (Nov 23, 2005)

I have made some calculations on the weight of the trunk if it's a straight cone taper, assuming it's dried pine. So, if it's a heavier timber it will go up.

Volume would be 9 cubic metres.

Pine weighs in at around 500kg/m3 so the trunk alone would be around 4500KG. Now that's assuming it's dried pine and tapers out to nil like a Norfolk or something.

You still have to consider the weight of the branches.

Assuming you cut 25kg blocks which is considered a safe weight lift here it would equate to 180 blocks. If you have 5 men carrying them out it's only 36 blocks each.

Plus the branches. 

Do you know what sort of tree it is?


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## a_lopa (Nov 23, 2005)

i know of a company in melbourne that got asked to bid a huge oak that had fallen onto a really nice historic house during a storm(no crane access),the guy put 40k(it might have been 60k i cant remember)and got a lift chopper in and made a killing on the job,the insurance company just wanted it off with no extra damage.


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## fmueller (Nov 23, 2005)

Here ya go, check this out. Nearby lift service. http://www.scottshelicopter.com/


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## Ekka (Nov 23, 2005)

Now that's what I'm talking about. 

There was a tree fell on a house in a storm up on the Sunshine Coast. They couldn't get a crane due to the driveway breaking etc so they got a helo in, cost $1500 for 1 hour!

Do you really need or want this job?


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 23, 2005)

Let's see if the riff raff is still poking around 

There's some good information in this manual

https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/altfmt/8408-1


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## PTS (Nov 23, 2005)

Ekka said:


> Do you know what sort of tree it is?




Elm


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 23, 2005)

You could set up some silt fence to catch any rocks that roll down, then just drag the tree up the hill with your wench, I mean winch.
Post some pictures.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 23, 2005)

Ekka's math on the weight of wood and # of blocks is interesting and I can actually contribute something in this regard and hope that the riff raff like Del Corbin and FMC don't one more time derail our thread. 
Anyway in just under 14 hrs. I blocked 1080 cubic ft. of Maple into 16" pieces, loaded it into a material bucket and dumped it into a forty yard bin.
Now, before everybody jumps up and says, "Woopty Doo", that translates to 6 full cords or 16 tons of wood.
Not bad for an old fart you was in intensive care just a year ago! 
It's the efficiency of the work, not the amount of work. Now I did pay for it a bit, and should have dragged it out over 3 five hr. days and not 2 seven hr. days.
Was a bit sore and slightly lack lustre the next day, but that's no biggy, because I'm going to do the same thing again.
So my point is, it's ok for you wood humpers to use me as an example.
You see, I really am a caring person.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 23, 2005)

Bulgarian Bugwood?


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## fmueller (Nov 23, 2005)

www.heliservice.ch/logging.html 
Some cool pics here too.


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## rbtree (Nov 23, 2005)

Gypo Logger said:


> Ekka's math on the weight of wood and # of blocks is interesting and I can actually contribute something in this regard and hope that the riff raff like Del Corbin and FMC don't one more time derail our thread.
> Anyway in just under 14 hrs. I blocked 1080 cubic ft. of Maple into 16" pieces, loaded it into a material bucket and dumped it into a forty yard bin.
> Now, before everybody jumps up and says, "Woopty Doo", that translates to 6 full cords or 16 tons of wood.
> Not bad for an old fart you was in intensive care just a year ago!
> ...



John, a cord is only 80 cubic feet of solid wood.....or 128 split and stacked. And a cord of green madrona weighs abt 5200 lb, and 4300 lb dry, making it a wood that loses less weight than most any other as it dries...and heavier...so, your figures must be off somewhere.

Regardless, you are one hec k of a splittin' dervish!!!


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## Old Monkey (Nov 23, 2005)

PTS - I think a combination of ideas expressed here could help you do the job. Any way you choose to do it you have to protect the dock and boat below with some sort of barrier though. You cant do a job where one loose rock kills any profit you've made. 


Off the topic here:

John the stuff you do is cool and I enjoy your pictures. I am glad you are well enough to (do)so much work. However, every post you make is about you, not the question being asked.


edit: Dan's post below made realize the error of my ways. I added the missing verb "do" above. I really should proofread more.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 23, 2005)

Sizzle-Chest said:


> i dont think a helicopter is really an option. from what i know, they cannot maintain the kind of precise stability required to pull wood out like that. even a little bit of helicopter movement means a lot of movement on the bottom of the line.





Negatory, Sizzle. We use them in the telecom industry to do radio coverage tests in places or conditions where a crane can't be used. The transmitter goes in the choppper and the antenna is hung underneath. They have to stay in one spot for several HOURS while some poor soul drives around taking signal strength measurements.

It's not as stable as a crane, but it'll do.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 23, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> How nice of OM. You've got to wonder is OM's nickname came form his tree climbing......or his habit of throwing feces around.
> =========



Is that nessesary?


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## Buzzlightyear (Nov 23, 2005)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Is that nessesary?



Unfortunatly it appears to be if your name happens to be Treeco........


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 23, 2005)

You guys just don't understand - the more vulgar you are, the more MANLY you are!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 23, 2005)

I'm contiually suprised that Tom allows himself to be sucked in. Dan I don't know nearly as well but sometimes I need to sake my head.

There is a very good discussion hin here, if we could cut the BS out, but I've not the time to read and edit 72 posts right now.


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## KentuckySawyer (Nov 23, 2005)

Hey PTS,
Any chance for some pictures of the job?

I was on a terrible job once, where a dead 35" Elm came out of a STEEP backyard with only the help of a log dolly.

My boss... the weasel... says, "This is the way that the Egyptians did it."

To which my foreman replies, "Yep, and a whole bunch of slaves."


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 23, 2005)

rbtree said:


> John, a cord is only 80 cubic feet of solid wood.....or 128 split and stacked. And a cord of green madrona weighs abt 5200 lb, and 4300 lb dry, making it a wood that loses less weight than most any other as it dries...and heavier...so, your figures must be off somewhere.
> 
> Regardless, you are one hec k of a splittin' dervish!!!


 Hi Roger, when it comes to firewood I'm not usually wrong in my calculations and I will show you why with math. If I'm out in my calculations it's only marginaly and to the benifit of the customer.
First of all, nobody deliver a solid block of firewood that measures 80 cubic ft. with no airspace.
Granted, a stacked cord is 128 cubic feet, however I am throwing mine loose into a bin. This is known as a bin volume measurement.
16" wood that is cut and split and thrown loose into a bin occupies 180 cubic feet to make 128 cu.ft. of stacked wood +-5%.
12" wood occupies 160 cu.ft. +-5%.
Therefore, if the bin is 1080 cubic ft. and the wood is 16", I have exactly 6 full cords or 768 cu. ft. stacked +-5%.
Furthermore, the only variable here is that since I am filling the bin with 16" blocks, do I in fact have the same amount of wood as I would had it been split?
I say the answer is yes and possibly even more, since there will be an expansion effect once it is split, offsetting the fact that blocks don't fit as tightly together as split wood when it is thrown into a bin loose.
Now getting to the weight. I claimed the bin when full weighs 16 tons.
since a cord of Hard Maple weighs 5350# green, then 6 cords weighs 32100 lbs. or slightly over 16 tons, but because some was Cherry and Ash (10%) 15.8 tons would be closer.
So Roger, please tell me where I went wrong?
John


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 23, 2005)

Old Monkey said:


> Off the topic here:
> 
> John the stuff you do is cool and I enjoy your pictures. I am glad you are well enough to (do)so much work. However, every post you make is about you,
> 
> ...


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## Sizzle-Chest (Nov 23, 2005)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Negatory, Sizzle. We use them in the telecom industry to do radio coverage tests in places or conditions where a crane can't be used. The transmitter goes in the choppper and the antenna is hung underneath. They have to stay in one spot for several HOURS while some poor soul drives around taking signal strength measurements.
> 
> It's not as stable as a crane, but it'll do.





I invented the helicopter, i think i would know.


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## Redbull (Nov 23, 2005)

Then what the heyhoo ya need a Big Shot or Pantin for? HAHAHA!!


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## Redbull (Nov 23, 2005)

Sorry, continue on with regular thread derailing, I'll stay out of this one now.


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## Dadatwins (Nov 23, 2005)

Helicopters removal sound like a great idea but on a 3 year dead elm I am picturing bark flying everywhere and limbs breaking off. If you can walk down the stairs to look at the tree then it can be carried up the stairs to the truck. It will not be any fun but it is possible. I did a whole bunch of removals years ago in brooklyn and manhatten NY that had to be pieced out and carried through the house or basement. Had one job that we used service elevators to get the debris out to street level. Lot of fun standing in an elevator with logs on your shoulders trying to push the door close button with your knee. Cranes and helicopters were not an option. Moving material by hand my be old fashioned but it still works, just build in the cost of enough day labor into your price and bid the job. Good luck.


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## darkstar (Nov 23, 2005)

PTS its time to get err done bro. Go down them steps cut that tree down and hual it out .Tree man style .Dark


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 24, 2005)

Sizzle-Chest said:


> I invented the helicopter, i think i would know.




Oh! Sorry, Sizzle, my bad. I'd forgotten that little detail.


 


Simon helped you though, right?


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## Jim1NZ (Nov 25, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Ekka, Got any pics of your crew doing helo work or is this just hot air?
> 
> I've never seen a helo doing residential tree work. Does anybody have any pics of their crew doing residential tree work using a helo?
> 
> I have seen videos of logging companies using helos but never an arborist.



A helicopter is a reasonable option and of coarse they are used in arboriculture. 6 Months ago i completed a specific cranes and helicopter course (aerial engineering). 

If its the safest, most efficient and cost viable option then why not!


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## Jim1NZ (Nov 25, 2005)

Heli lifts are smooth as, with a long enough strop there wont be any more wind from the helicopter than there wound be on any normal day.


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## Jim1NZ (Nov 25, 2005)

Imagine trying to take down a tree thats been dead for three years, theres going to be a mess...

You would have to lower it all would you not? Is it even safe to climb?


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 25, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Let's see if the riff raff is still poking around
> 
> There's some good information in this manual
> 
> https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/altfmt/8408-1



Gee Tom.....it's not very nice calling people riff raff, but thanks anyway, for being so helpful!

Tom...I sent you and email, be sure to read it! Dennis


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## Old Monkey (May 4, 2006)

PTS - Did you ever do this job?


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