# Please, sell me your hitch!



## Bradley Ford (Apr 2, 2004)

or Why did you pick your hitch?

I'd like to know that the hitch I climb with is the safest climbing hitch available. Unfortunately, I don't know how to define a safe hitch well enough to make objective comparisons. My best guess at the safest hitch (for a dynamic rope system) is a 5-3 Blake's, but this is only based on learning that Peter Jenkins uses this hitch at his open-to-the-public climbing sessions. My guess is that Peter picked the safest hitch for use in that safety-first environment. I realize that the Blake's does not perform in some ways as well as other hitches, but I'm willing to sacrifice performance (if I must) for safety.

I'd like to hear why you chose your hitch, especially if you can persuade me that your hitch is safer than the 5-3 Blake's.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 2, 2004)

Right here at the beginning of the story, you need to define what YOU mean by "safe". Otherwise this will be a preferance rating. 

In the pantheon of climbing hitches, the tautline is on the un-safe end because it has a tendency and history of rolling off the tail. The Blake's will get burnt sooner but that isn't realted to the hitch, it's related to the pilot. Same for any issues about tying the hitch correctly. 

Have you waded through the "TL Appreciation" thread? Seems like the horse is getting ready for another flogging 

Peter is the only one that I know who uses a 5-3 Blake's. Everyone else uses a three over one. 

I remember talking with some of the German arbos who did some pull testing on climbing hitches. They found that the loops no the bottom of the crossover didn't add to the grab rating of the hitch. If you want more grab they found, add turns above. 

If I use a trad split tail I use a Blake's. When I take people rec climbing they use a 3/1 distel. 

Tom


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## Nathan Wreyford (Apr 2, 2004)

By safe, do you mean less chance for pilot error?

4-2 vt is nice and 100% safe so is a 4-1 depends on the pilot.

I classify hitches as length dependent and non length dependent


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## Bradley Ford (Apr 2, 2004)

I am not trying to define, "What is safe?" here; I tried to do that in Safety parameters for descent hitches. Here, I've asked _*why*_ did you chose your hitch. Your reasons may or may not include safety considerations. (Maybe you picked your hitch because it has 7 wraps, and 7 is your lucky number.  )


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## Stumper (Apr 2, 2004)

Bradley, I don't use only one hitch but I'll give you my arguments for one I like that I think makes the grade as "safe". 3/1 Distel! --Becasue it holds when it is supposed to, releases when I want it to, captures both legs (it is a tress cord hitch) so that it cannot possibly roll out but, unlike some others will still hold if one leg is cut.:angel:


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## Nathan Wreyford (Apr 2, 2004)

a 4-2vt is my hitch of choice.

4-1 is good but I find that it bites too hard when working off a FS or RG.

WHY?

Handling and performance. It doesn't bite hard and it opens easily. 

For example, today I was working some tall oaks in a biergarten. The weight of the rope was enough to tend the slack so when returning from a small limbwalk or ascending to get a missed detail, it is hands free. 

.02


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 2, 2004)

i think 4 grabbing coils seems like a definitive pattern; in fact i have thought of 1 grabbing choke as a light/temporary tie, 2-3 for rigging, 4 for life as a pattern i seem to witness as i work and play.

Sometimes the safest hitch is the one that you work the best with.

i think that the VT has 2 stages, a top set of 4 choking coils as a short Frenchy stack; under which is the 'braids'. I think the braids provide friction by bending the line like a rappelling rack (back and forth), for non-choking friction, that doesn't quite stop; but reduces the load to the choking rings, thereby allowing the coils to provide/top off with finishing friction, but not loaded enough to sieze. The braids reduce the load that much, yet won't sieze, won't stop you; just function to make the positive stop of the Frenchy more mannerly.

i think only having 1 'braid' set; doesn't bend the line enough angle or times for this function.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 2, 2004)

When I use a split tail (which I am starting to occasionally on a second tie in) I use the blake's.

For my primary tie in, right now I am using a swabiish. When I get my sta set ordered, a I will go to a VT, which I have used before. 

Right now I am considering using a split tail to ascend, then going to the Swabiish. The reason for that is is that right now my hitch doesnt feed the slack through, so I pull my self up say 5-10 feet, stop and hold myself with one hand, and pull slack out with the other. That gets old real quick, and slows me down dramatically. Yesterday I tried the blake's on a second tie in, and I liked the way it moved for ascending. With a properly set up VT, the slack just falls through it.

So I would say the best is a VT for a tress, or blakes for split.


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## rahtreelimbs (Apr 2, 2004)

For me, the VT is the only hitch I will use. I 've tried most of the other popular hitches and nothing compares! I set my VT up with a 52" piece of 8mm Sta-Set. I use the typical double fisherman knots. The 4 wrap- 3 braid works best for me. The little extra length that I use allows the VT to run smoother for me. 



Carl, I assume that you don't work alone. Why don't you have one of your groundies belay you as you ascend. That is the beauty of the micro pulley. Once you get a rythmn going you won't even know he is there.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 2, 2004)

Nope I dont work alone. I also always use a micro pulley to tend the hitch, but I want to give the knut a try also, possibly on a lanyard. On trims my steel core is getting annoying with the micro grab (cant let out slack while weighted). I got some extra BS so I might make some lanyard (DEDA) out of it.

I was gonna ask you what your wrap to braid combo was, but thanks!

Does your hitch let the slack fall through?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 2, 2004)

i think a Knut, tied with barrels (anchor hitch to self) straight to the D in 8mm is great for a lanyard adjuster, for even smoother tending, lacing tail of lanyard through D also. Lacing like that through D will give tending to many of the friction hitches; Knut's own self tending tendency making it easier; the D lets you pull at different angles than Knut would tend friendliest at, or when been loaded harder i think.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 2, 2004)

I disagree.
His last thread turned out to have much good information. I think having a non-arborist involved in these BS sessions is useful. Look at the benefit we've gained having Rescue Robert around, I assume his primary job is Rescue.


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## Stumper (Apr 2, 2004)

Brian, You aren't the only one to have those thoughts but.....Humor the boy. It's kinda fun as long as we don't expect to satisfy him with our answers. Just think of Bradley as Shrek-a kindler gentler sort of troll.


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## Newfie (Apr 2, 2004)

But Shrek is an ogre, with layers.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 2, 2004)

Safe is as safe does.

Any knot is as safe as the person operating it.

We choose our hithces on performance first. ANyone who is not carfull in their set and dress will not be climbing on a safe knot.

Once you become competant in knot tieing, you start to play around with different combos. I know a fellow who climbed on a 3:1 blakes for a while. Some people trim their cords for a distal down so the knot is right on top of the carabiner,

The safest knot for any given person is that which he is confident enough to tie, tend and trust.

The term Tress Cord pooped up to differentiate a splittal that is secured on both ends, since the MT and VT were all the rage at the time and the distal schwabisch were not yet well known. Just a little more parsing is all.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *I disagree.
> His last thread turned out to have much good information. I think having a non-arborist involved in these BS sessions is useful. Look at the benefit we've gained having Rescue Robert around, I assume his primary job is Rescue. *



Definitely IMLHO; many newbies (new buddies)questions are basic, and i have seen a lot come of the discussion of those basics; in depth and color. i think many basics have so much to them that you can't appreciate them all at once. RescueRob has firmed up the science i think, also brought in an insight into parallel activity, using similar tools, facing similar puzzles fun.da.mentally; and in many ways a higher evolved science and tools at that. 

i think that has been great and appreciate it too. i think it is also easier to recognize the patterns of the real constants comparing the similar forces and strategies between the 2 arts; and gives more depth of understanding and varitey of strategies in the melding of the 2, quite logically.





If anything has been beaten to death; it is the judgemental, targetted, aggressive, verbage towards any one passing by the ol'ArboristSite's Buzzard's perch; and not meeting some sort of imagined standard; or having queries beyond some allowable point. i think there would exist more mind power here today; if it weren't for such goings on, so that we all have been robbed in this way. Also, that people that could have been helped; without a taste for such bs have gone away with less too. So that the $ponsors lose too. i truly believe that such constant negativity is unnecessary, destrutive and dominoeing in the latent effects enough to speak out against - Once again. i find it a lot easier and polite to not respond to a question that doesn't seem interesting, letting it pass, and others respond if they wish; than watching someone be told to shut up, they have naught the write to speak; and furthermore rallying others not to help; or exercise their chance to participate and to sort things from their head onto paper if things they think are important aren't mentioned this round; and see no harm in such a process, nothing negative about it. 
-KC


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## Gord (Apr 3, 2004)

For me the safest hitch is the one that frustrates me the least. When I climbed on a blake in the past it would alwas creep a little right at the most inopportune moments, such as when i was balanced precariously on the end of a limb about to make a cut and...out goes a little line and off goes your balance. A distel or Swabisch does better in this situation until you try to make the return limbwalk and very nearly break the slack tending pulley because the hitch has tightened up so much. 

There's only one hitch that lets line out predictably and smoothly, holds well and consistently, *and* does not lock up under a load. It's the VT. It cannot be beat. Any cons that it has are far outweighed by it's pros.

However, as Tom noted the VTis not exactly the best knot for beginners as it requires care and understanding to make it work safely. So I would also suggest the Distel or Swabisch for beginners.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 3, 2004)

I like the VT.
Distal/Swabish for beginers.
Blake's and tautline are for the museum, along with eight track tapes and mullets (pick-a-doo).


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## rborist1 (Apr 3, 2004)

:Eye:


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## Ax-man (Apr 3, 2004)

I'm a confirmed VT user, I'll never go back to any other hitch, except for a quickie double crotch, where a Blake's would be easier to tie.

The quick release and smooth motion when fair leading has speeded up my climbing quite a bit. My swinging and jumping have also improved since I made the switch to the VT.

I use a 4-3 combo, I have yet to have the hitch fail, it is just a simple matter of moving the standing side of the line ahead a little with your hand above it to set the hitch, then putting your weight on it to make sure it holds the line, just becomes a habit after awhile. Even after taking my weight off the line, the hitch will still hold and hasn't slipped on me yet. It is a really cool hitch to watch with it's moveable bridge, along with the watching the braids streaching out on the line.

Larry


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## OutOnaLimb (Apr 3, 2004)

80% of the time I still use the Blakes hitch on the old end of the rope method. I have tress cords and split tails but to be perfectly honest with ya, I have tried all of the assorted hitches, and the Blakes is still my favorite. I guess it is all user dependant, but I really dont see the point in re-inventing the wheel.

Kenn

:Monkey:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OutOnaLimb _
> * I have tried all of the assorted hitches, and the Blakes is still my favorite. *




Did you really give any of them a chance?

I'm another one who as soon as i tried the VT I never looked back.

If i forget a second tress cord on the saddle. I'll use a blakes for a double crotch, and maybe for a quick small tree where I'm using the rope more for descent then anything else. Double halfhitch to the center D and blakes with the tail.

I hate it though when i climb on a blakes, cuse I forget that i cannot onehand-advance the hitch.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 3, 2004)

I'm really with Kenn on this one.
They went from cassettes to CDs, now on to MP3, and I still like 8-track tape the best! Why try to improve on music storage, the 8-track is perfect.


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## OutOnaLimb (Apr 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> 
> 
> I hate it though when i climb on a blakes, cuse I forget that i cannot onehand-advance the hitch. [/B]



Thats why I like to attach a micro pully right under my Blakes, and clip it into the bowline that I secure my tail to my floating D to. I have never tried the VT. Any one got any photos or a thourough explanation??? I wouldnt mind giving it a shot.

Kenn

:Monkey:


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## Nathan Wreyford (Apr 4, 2004)

Just FYI, the #1 hitch I see here daily is a prussick loop with just 2 wraps.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 4, 2004)

I've tried the blakes w/ slack tender, but having my attatchment points on each hip, I did not like the slop in it.

Xian Hunter has some hitch pic's on his site.

http://community-2.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots/


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## OutOnaLimb (Apr 4, 2004)

I have found that there is more slop in a Distle or Swabish using a minder pulley. With the end of the rope Blakes I can adjust the amount of play so that I do not have more than 2 inches of slop when I mind my hitch. Thanks for the link though, I will check it out and do some playing around with new techniques.

Kenn
:Monkey:


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## Bradley Ford (Apr 6, 2004)

To those that have shared or will share "why", thank you.



> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Based on Bradley's other thread last month, I think this has been beaten to death and he is simply rephrasing an unanswerable question.*


I believe, "Why did you pick your hitch?" is a question everyone who has climbed on a hitch can answer. What do you think is my "unanswerable question"?



> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Any knot is as safe as the person operating it.
> 
> We choose our hithces on performance first.*


(This question is asked of everyone, not just JPS. I quoted JPS's post because it succinctly provided context.) Would you still select your hitch based on performance first even if you could rank the hitches relative to their intrinsic safety (because you feel all climbing hitches are safe enough)?


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## NickfromWI (Apr 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *But you aren't asking anybody why they picked their hitch.... *




The way I read the initial post in this thread, that is ALL he was asking. The first thread was more, "Which is the "safest." Now this thread, according to the very first question on his first post is "Why did you pick yours."

There is a difference. A group of people might be able to agree which is the safest, but some of those people might say, "even though the "X" hitch is safer, I choose "Y" because it's faster, easier to tie, doesn't burn the tress cord as much"...and so on.

Rocky, chill.

love
nick


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## NickfromWI (Apr 6, 2004)

Brian, my good buddy ol' pal, yes, he keeps using the word "safer" but he is also asking WHY DID YOU PICK YOUR HITCH....what are all the things that go in to you deciding to use what you use?

It just seems that there is not reason to jump down his throat.

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 6, 2004)

Nick is right, and Rocky's wrong.


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## OutOnaLimb (Apr 8, 2004)

There is a big difference between safety and efficient performance. I kinda gotta back Rocky on this one. Whats the point in using a super safe hitch if its gonna cause you to flounder around in a tree all day long? Its kinda like pounding sand.

Kenn

:Monkey:


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## Gord (Apr 9, 2004)

on a lighter note, here's a pretty picture of my hitch


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 9, 2004)

Gord,

You might consider a change in your system. If you swap the biners side to side you'll have a bit better stystem I think. By using the HMS with your split tail you'll have a bigger space to put the wider load. With the cord and the pulley on that small space, the load is shifte towards the gate leg which is weaker. 

Putting the single rope on the smaller biner keeps the load centered better on the main spine. 

I've stopped using any d-shaped biners where more than one rope is connected. The ISC Mongoose and its kindred or Petzl HMS get used in their place.

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 9, 2004)

You could shorten up the system by chaning out the pulley and tying to the biner instead of the fair lead, which will help with performance, along with taking one less turn on the VT.


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## rb_in_va (Apr 9, 2004)

FWIW, I believe Bradley Ford is a rec climber. From that perspective, his ultimate goal may be the safest hitch, rather than the most efficient. He's not concerned with how many trees he can get up and down in a day, likely wants to enjoy the experience and be safe about it. Bradley, correct me if I am wrong on this.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 9, 2004)

Putting a spliced eye in that climbing line will make you a happy man...


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## rborist1 (Apr 9, 2004)

:Eye:


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 9, 2004)

I have tried the two biners thing and did not like it. Seems like there was one of them always side loading. The only time I untie my hitch is to change the cord or wash the rope.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 9, 2004)

Tim,

Email me, I have something that I'd like to talk with you about.

rborist1,

If the cord is between the cheeks of the pulley, how much clearance is there between the cord and the rope? If they rub, is that a concern?

Tom


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## rborist1 (Apr 9, 2004)

:Eye:


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## Gord (Apr 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *Gord,
> 
> You might consider a change in your system. If you swap the biners side to side you'll have a bit better stystem I think. By using the HMS with your split tail you'll have a bigger space to put the wider load. With the cord and the pulley on that small space, the load is shifte towards the gate leg which is weaker.
> ...



I agree with you Tom, I'm not entirely happy with the way that the pulley and eye load the biner. The thing is, I have a buckingham versatile and clip into two of the attachment loops. If I have the pulley and eye on the large end of the HMS I cannot easily unclip the system from my belt to pass it around a limb or whatever, I have to unclip the hitch from the biner rather than the biner from my belt. I'm always trying to refine the system, I've been trying this set up for the last few weeks and like it for the most part, but it's far from perfect.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 9, 2004)

I've seen setups that are like that and the climbing line rubs on the hitch cord all of the time. As long as it is inspected OFTEN!!! it shouldn't be an issue. If the wear is done in a few days then I would be very concerned. 

I'm not saying its a bad setup, just caution.

Tom


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Hey Tim- I'm impressed that over the last year of experimenting with friction hitches, we both ended up with the identical hitch tied with the identical hitch cord. Although I'm still using a pulley for my hitch tender.
> I did find that the 4-1 VT tied with Sta-Set didn't always grab on the Fly rope. I think it works better on the Yellow Jacket. Amazing how much different a hitch will work if only one variable is changed. *




The hitch tender I have developed is really cool. I prolly will not go back to a pulley.  Sta-Set and The Fly work really well for me. When you combine the light weight rope, FC, VT and the hitch tender the system is smooth as silk.

Too bad there is not a better splice for the Fly. With 16 strand I could pull the eye through a pulley with throw line.


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## Bradley Ford (Oct 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tim Gardner _
> *The hitch tender I have developed is really cool. I prolly will not go back to a pulley. *


Tim,

Please tell us more about your hitch tender: picture. Was it sold as a hitch tender (vendor?), or did you make it yourself (how?)? Why is it a better hitch tender than a micropulley?

Thanks!


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## Stumper (Oct 5, 2004)

Tim made it. It is better cause it is lighter-I guess?-If Tim ever makes one for me (Hint ,hint ) I'll know for sure.


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## geofore (Oct 6, 2004)

*prussic*



> _Originally posted by Nathan Wreyford _
> *Just FYI, the #1 hitch I see here daily is a prussick loop with just 2 wraps. *



Are these guys under 100kilos? For those of us at 230-250 lbs it's better with three wraps. I use the blake but I have lots of prussics made up to use also, they come in handy for other uses.


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