# Toppers



## Jlarnard (Sep 23, 2008)

Everyday as I drive it seems I see a new tree topping job done. I am sure this is exageration but still.... I am amazed that either they don't know or they don't care that it is not accepted. I have talked to a crew several times
from out of town, when I saw them topping. It was getting pretty ugly. You know... the first time I coached em, the second time I had a document to give them, the third time my family was threatened.
The customers too, it's like they have this out of controll ball of leaves next to the house, but they defend the practice.
Any wisdoms out there?


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## teamtree (Sep 23, 2008)

We battle this all the time. In my opinion you can only do so much to educate a customer on what is right and wrong. If they own the tree they can care for it how they want. I know it is wrong and I tell my customers this is not the way to go about trimming and caring for their trees. When you tell them you will not do it and ask them to find someone else, they probably will find someone. Sometimes they take the education to heart and you have a good customer on your hands. 

On the other hand when you are facing slow times, it is hard to turn down the money. I have topped trees in the past and if necessary, I will do it again if the customer is willing to pay for what THEY want after being educated.

It is not the end of the world...it is just a tree....or is it?


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## tomtrees58 (Sep 23, 2008)

that's normal 4 fla educate your customers i have a tree service in st pete and 1 on L I N Y tom trees:smoking:


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 23, 2008)

I believe the correct term is "crown reduction", lol.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 23, 2008)

I tell them it's not the right thing to do but if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day. I use to ask them to call someone else and walk away from these jobs but I have to keep the business running...................I'll bet there are a whole bunch of people here who claim to never do it but I'll bet they have and will again....


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## tree MDS (Sep 23, 2008)

Crown reduction differents than topping. I worked for an arborist in florida and we did it right - the others? mostly not so much. Back then they called it a class 4 crown reduction, usually by one third or so. The "hatrackers", would just have to go up so high and start stubbing back to the desired hight. It was pretty bad - thats not to say that we didnt do a few, it was the worst, stubs bonking thier way down off the trunk blasting off chunks of cambium, lol. Our usual work was a PITA so occaisionally when we got a hatrack we loved it. I was young then, I wouldnt bother with that now - especially with my name on the door.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks for raining on my parade MDS, Look what you made me do.

And yeah, nobody on this site or affiliated with it in any way, has ever or will ever top a tree. That's a well known fact. lolololo.......


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## tree MDS (Sep 24, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Thanks for raining on my parade MDS, Look what you made me do.
> 
> And yeah, nobody on this site or affiliated with it in any way, has ever or will ever top a tree. That's a well known fact. lolololo.......



Sorry for the rain nails. As far as tree toppers go I'm sure there are some real hackers on this piece, big time, lol. I got some hard core pruning to do on the job I'm on now, it sucks I'd rather just to removal but you gotta provide full service so pole saw here we come - 90' big red oaks. Did all the takedown today.


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## lxt (Sep 24, 2008)

Funny thing is storm hit PA as im sure elsewhere too and most of the people im meeting with want their trees topped, a gent just today said to me look at my trees all busted up.....neighbor had his "topped/hatracked" and theres no mess in his yard!!

I told him......wait 1-2yrs down the road when we have a storm on a smaller scale & see what happens to his trees, BUT... right now no ones buying it!! its every H.O. asking for topping to be done!! MMmmm what a nightmare.


LXT............


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## ClimbinArbor (Sep 24, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I believe the correct term is "crown reduction", lol.



i got it nails. mds just has no humor for these things you see. lol


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## capetrees (Sep 24, 2008)

How about myob? If the owner doesn't care, all the explaining isn't going to MAKE him care. Do your own jobs the right way and live with it.


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## Jlarnard (Sep 25, 2008)

A lot of arborists like the term tree surgeon. Well simply put, unless it is dead and causing decay to the tree, I won't top a tree. Just like a surgeon wouldn't cut of a nearly perfectly functioning head. Now a drastic crown reduction I will do. Always following the 1/3 rule.
Drop crotch pruning rules!!


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## clearance (Sep 25, 2008)

Jlarnard said:


> A lot of arborists like the term tree surgeon.



If I was a surgeon, I would be sued, and imprisoned for my killing ways. I don't even like the term arborist, it tends to lump you in with paper shufflers, textbook heroes and other non-workers of all kinds. 

Now, how many surgeons are there who have never used a scapel on a patient? 
Lots of arborists have never climbed or ran saw, see my point?


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## Rftreeman (Sep 25, 2008)

clearance said:


> If I was a surgeon, I would be sued, and imprisoned for my killing ways. I don't even like the term arborist, it tends to lump you in with paper shufflers, textbook heroes and other non-workers of all kinds.
> 
> Now, how many surgeons are there who have never used a scapel on a patient?
> Lots of arborists have never climbed or ran saw, see my point?


and I thought I was the only one that felt this way........agree 100%


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh no, there are more like us .


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 25, 2008)

Jlarnard said:


> Drop crotch pruning rules!!




What does this mean, could you please explain? Thanks.


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## yooper (Sep 26, 2008)

clearance said:


> If I was a surgeon, I would be sued, and imprisoned for my killing ways. I don't even like the term arborist, it tends to lump you in with paper shufflers, textbook heroes and other non-workers of all kinds.
> 
> Now, how many surgeons are there who have never used a scapel on a patient?
> Lots of arborists have never climbed or ran saw, see my point?



I do!!!! but I climb. maybe old school but damm good at it. maybe thats why. maybe not. but boy do I under stand where you are comming from. done r.o.w. my self. and see the idiots that run the show and have no idea whats going on.


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## BCMA (Sep 26, 2008)

Here is an article I wrote and published locally here a couple of years ago.

“TOPPING”, OR THE PRACTICE OF TREE MUTILATION

The definition of the word “mutilate” is, 1. to cut off or damage a limb or other important part of a person or animal (in this case, trees); 2. To damage, injure, or otherwise make imperfect, especially by removing an essential part or parts. There we have it! Tree topping summed up in one word, MUTILATION!! It is a crying shame that various forms of “topping” is still being performed by some as a valid form of tree care. The tree care industry has established tree pruning standards that govern the proper pruning of trees. Information is available through the International Society of Arboriculture, National Arborist Association, various Universities, and professional Arborists. Fortunately there are many good Arborists in our area that can instruct you on proper tree care.

The tree care practices in the Silver Valley are especially apparent that more education is needed to teach people about proper tree care. Every where you look you see trees that have been butchered and are full of heart rot, excessive water sprouts, weakly attached limbs, and hazards to the nearby residence. These trees should be beautiful, graceful, and majestic, with strong scaffold branching supporting a rich green leafy crown, but instead look like they have experienced a nuclear blast or the Mt. Saint Helen’s eruption. It seems like when I am in the Silver Valley I spent most of my time explaining to people why I won’t top their tree. I often hear the concern, “I feel that my tree is to tall”. Believe it or not, many trees are supposed to be tall. Trees are highly engineered and designed woody plants that have specific growth characteristics unique to each species. It is quite apparent that some trees like to grow one hundred feet tall or more, and some trees grow less then fifteen feet tall. When you take a tree that is presently fifty feet tall or taller and reduce its height to lets say, twenty five feet, this tree is going to respond by putting out an excessive amount of water sprouts (suckers) throughout the remaining crown. Water sprouts that form on the main scaffold branches or the trunk of the tree many times are a sign that the tree is in decline or has been severely damaged. These water sprouts that form the new crown will have an accelerated growth rate of four to five feet a year or possible more when the average growth rate should be about ten to twelve inches a year. Within a few years the tree is at the same height that it was before the tree has it’s crown amputated, except now its full of rot, birds, hazards, disease, insects not to mention it’s ugliness during the winter time. If you think your tree is dangerous, it should be inspected by a qualified Arborist.

There are other fancy terms that are used to promote this type of tree destruction such as height reduction, crown reduction, pollarding, and drop crotch pruning. Although there are instances where these types of pruning are preferred or necessary, many times it is done wrong and falls under the category of topping. Lets take for instance “drop crotch pruning”. When this is done correctly the terminal branch is removed back to a lateral branch that is at least one-third the size of the parent branch. The lateral branch should have somewhat of an upward sweep to maintain the apical dominance of the stem. Cutting a four inch branch back to a one-half inch lateral that has no upward growth is not drop crotch pruning. It is of my opinion that any pruning on large deciduous trees that produces excessive suckering and heart rot is improper pruning. 

There are other situations where someone might want to control the height on a smaller ornamental tree by making heading cuts year after year. This is fine as long as they realize that they will never have a natural looking tree. I know some that shear their hawthorn tree into a lolly-pop every year, or shear their blue spruce into a fine textured formal Christmas tree. There is nothing wrong with this if this is your desired effect.

There are many issues and circumstances that have not been addressed such as hazardous tree assessment, cabling and bracing, crown thinning to reduce wind sail, tree structure formation, ornamental pruning, shearing of deciduous and evergreen shrubs, root systems, and soils that all play a part of proper tree care. If there is one practice that I would like to see stopped, it is the topping of mature trees. It’s sad to see well meaning people pay good money only to have their trees mutilated.


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## Jlarnard (Sep 26, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> What does this mean, could you please explain? Thanks.



I am sure I would not word this right. But here is a link to a nicely concise article on it. There are lots of docs out there but this one is very concise.http://www.na.fs.fed.us/Spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_prune/approaches.htm


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## Jlarnard (Sep 26, 2008)

Wanted to give BCMA a warm welcome. I am glad to see an arborist on here who is not afraid to speak the truth. Even if it isn't exactly the most profitable. And I wanted to clear up my stance on 1/3 rule. I do not recomend it to anyone with a healthy mature tree. I only sell them on it if they insist on toping. I try to steer them toward crown thinning. 
And I also feel that to although being an arborist doesn't make you a good tree trimmer, why not have the education if you are a tree trimmer? 
Besides I'd rather people call me an arborist than say, "look at that :monkey:"


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## BCMA (Sep 26, 2008)

Thank you for the kind words and welcome. 

Illustration: Last week I went to three doctors to talk to them about the maintenance and care of my fingernails. I told them I was tired of cleaning and clipping my nails, and that I wanted to have my fingers removed at the second knuckle. Regardless of how much I tried to persuade the doctors to cut off my fingers, and regardless of how much money I offered to pay them for this service, each doctor declined to cut off my fingers. Think of how much money they could have made!

Just like I could not persuade a doctor to cut off my fingers (malpractice), I will not be party to providing arboriculture services that are not according to industry standards, or that are not in the best interest of our clients.
Our industry will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be considered a professional industry and command the respect it deserves until we as an industry make some changes. I'm sorry to say that I'm appalled at some of the things I read on these "tree care forums". It only confirms my feelings when I have to apologize to a client for the miss-treatment, wrong information, or lack of integrity they received from our profession.

Here are some items I would like to see our industry adopt on a state and national level. At this point, in most states the only requirements necessary to become a tree care provider/climber/contractor/weekend warrior is a chain saw, pickup truck, and a Rottweiler. If we want our profession to be viewed by the public as a professional industry (which it is) some changes are needed.

1. All states require a competency license to companies providing tree care services. This license would test knowledge and practice, and insure all provides carry the proper liability insurance and workman’s compensation. Hefty fines for violations! The TCIA has a fantastic accreditation program, which I recommend to everyone.

2. No more “moonlighting”. Our company has a policy that disallows moonlighting and may be grounds for termination.

3. All companies and individuals be required to operate within the guidelines of OSHA and ANSI requirements. We as an industry are experiencing too many accidents and deaths. I know of personally of three “professional” climbers killed in our area, and one seriously hurt. All four accidents preventable with proper training, or following industry safety standards. I see some of the pictures posted on the website and see the PPE violations and wonder about the rest of the operation. BTW, OSHA can issue fines from pictures alone! Consider becoming a TCIA Certified Treecare Safety Professional.

Folks, I’m not trying to be a “stick in the mud”. I’ve worked hard at my profession as an arborist. I’ve tried to avail myself to every program, society, association, certification, training program, whatever to increase the professionalism of our company, myself individually, and the industry in our area. Should we settle of anything less?


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## Jlarnard (Sep 26, 2008)

If those 3 requirements were in place I would have a monopoly around here.
I'm all for it. But the truth is the industry is not judged as a whole. If there werent "hacks" then there would also not be any exceptional services. There is the class of people who save a dime at any cost, cutting corners to save money. They look at the fancy trucks, uniforms, tools, etc... and say wow I won't help them pay for all that equipment. Then they hire a couple of hilbillys like Larry and the Derel brothers. And they pay for the 3 week binge they go on to celebrate a completed job. I know thats extreem, but I hope you see my point.


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## lxt (Sep 26, 2008)

Funny industry standards...... todays standards will not be the same tommorrow, the standards 20yrs ago are still used because people saw this as industry standards and thought why change?

topping is a horrible thing but try to convince the H.O that the tree(s) they`ve been doing this to ( that keep coming back) that it is wrong!! very hard sell.....

LXT...........


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## Jlarnard (Sep 26, 2008)

Standards for performing the job have and will change. But basic tree physiology dictates pruning practices. Shigo set the standards, and I was trained 20 years ago by a man who had been a climber for 36 years. He taught me proper pruning practices. So because people have mutilated trees we should all continue? No. We learn, and when we stop learning what good are we. About the only thing I remember as a debate was to paint the cuts or not. How many of you know what is the standard on that one?
I haven't stated this before but it is food for thought. ISA states somewhere. I could probably find it and paste it. But basically that liability is
an issue to companies that top trees. Think 25 years down the road, when you get a summons to court. Somebody dies because of a limb from a tree you topped years ago. Silly? We claim to be experts, people put their trust in us. We need to be experts! 
I understand we all need to survive. Just at least try to sell them on a lesser destructive means. Or charge them more for removing it and plant a new one.


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## tree MDS (Sep 26, 2008)

Jlarnard said:


> I am sure I would not word this right. But here is a link to a nicely concise article on it. There are lots of docs out there but this one is very concise.http://www.na.fs.fed.us/Spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_prune/approaches.htm


 Dude, thats powerline speak, cant you see that? That is not the industry standard for crown reduction! Powerline hack! lol.


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## clearance (Sep 26, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Dude, thats powerline speak, cant you see that? That is not the industry standard for crown reduction! Powerline hack! lol.



Powerline speak, uhh, you mean straight and logical talk about what needs to be done? 
The tree is under the three phase line, as it grows it is growing into the three phase line. Do you know what happens when a tree contacts a high voltage powerline, or in cases of very high voltage, even gets close?

Powerline hack huh?
How about arborist retard? 
What should one do when a tree that should never have been allowed to live starts to violate the limits of approach?


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## tree MDS (Sep 26, 2008)

clearance said:


> Powerline speak, uhh, you mean straight and logical talk about what needs to be done?
> The tree is under the three phase line, as it grows it is growing into the three phase line. Do you know what happens when a tree contacts a high voltage powerline, or in cases of very high voltage, even gets close?
> 
> Powerline hack huh?
> ...


 HAHAHHAHHAHA, sorry clearance, its just funny is all- how different the residential ansi thing I've got printed up somewhere is- thats all, lol. Remember clearance, "Arborsite", lol. Hack them Biiaaatchez right up for all I care!!! Lol.


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## tree MDS (Sep 26, 2008)

Heh, Heh, Heh.


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## clearance (Sep 26, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> HAHAHHAHHAHA, sorry clearance, its just funny is all- how different the residential ansi thing I've got printed up somewhere is- thats all, lol. Remember clearance, "Arborsite", lol. Hack them Biiaaatchez right up for all I care!!! Lol.



Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?


I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.

I am well aware of some arborists looking down on utility guys, holding thier noses and dissin us while using the power we make possible from our work and others work. You are one, hypocrite, like the others.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 26, 2008)

clearance said:


> Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?



Basal prune. wrong tree for the location, mulch it.

An acquaintance is a contract forester for a power co-op, his primary job is convincing people that the pines that have been topped for the past 20 years should come down for safety, budgetary and service interruption reasons. There are 5-6 fatcat members who are huge job security for him, since they will not let forestry on their land to do anything but a clearance trim. I think he has been to court as expert witness 5 times in 4 years.


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## clearance (Sep 26, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Basal prune. wrong tree for the location, mulch it.



As you know I believe it should be sawn down as well, but that is not what I asked.

Problem is that some arborists and much of the public want the impossible, they don't want nothing cut but they want power 24/7, with no interruptions ever.


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## tree MDS (Sep 26, 2008)

clearance said:


> Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?
> 
> 
> I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.
> ...



Chill out clearance, I'm tired now, I'll follow up on this at a latter date.


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## ddhlakebound (Sep 26, 2008)

clearance said:


> Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?
> 
> 
> I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.
> ...



Topping or removal are the only options in your scenario.

There is no way around that. I agree that those should be cut down and replaced with trees that will stay safely under the lines. 

There are residential arborists and utility arborists who deserve to be looked down on. Some of them have never been trained to trim the trees properly. Others know better and just don't give a #*k. There are lots of people in both fields who do a poor job of performing their work. There is plenty of room for improvement on both sides. 

The utility arborists have a more difficult job, and paid less, and pressed for production more, and very often are left with only bad options when it comes to trees and power lines. So it's not surprising that we get alot of hacked trees along our right of ways. If the guy running the saw isn't trained to clear the lines AND leave the tree in as good of shape as possible, or just does not care, we get hacked trees. If the land owner along the right of way fights the power company every step of the way, and only allows minimal trimming, we get hacked trees. 

But I really don't think this thread is about utility topping. 

It's about the residential guys who ruin perfectly good trees for money. It's not hard to find someone to hack your trees. They advertise in the yellow pages, and on the internet, they knock on your door and ask if you'd like a great price to get your trees trimmed. 

Sometimes they're even the guys who know better, but just don't care enough to stick to their guns when the say topping is bad. To them, the cash is worth more. 

How much does that teach the customer, when they see topping advertised, topping practiced around them, and when they ask their tree guy for what their neighbor got, too often the tree guy will say "topping is bad...but if that's what you want, im your man". 

Seems to me they only learn that topping isn't that bad. And they won't learn anything different until 8 out of 10 arborsists REFUSE to top thier trees. When our industry's actions match our industry's rhetoric, then we'll be making progress.


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## clearance (Sep 26, 2008)

That is pretty good ddh. Valid points. I agree that topping is wrong in almost every case. I didn't care before and I used to advocate the use of spurs for everything here, I no longer do. 

But I while climb everything with spurs, I make proper collar cuts, I advise spiral pruning instead of topping to people. 

Fact is that when you have to trim beside the lines, the trees will never look that good, even with proper cuts. That is just the way it is, perhaps if people would give up some of thier yards to plant trees further back, it will change. 

I doubt it though, I have seen tall growing trees planted right beside three phase lines, under the direction of ISA arborists. When these trees get whacked back away from the line with proper cuts, I am sure the words "hack utility guys" will be used.


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## BCMA (Sep 26, 2008)

Lxt----todays standards will not be the same tommorrow, the standards 20yrs ago are still used because people saw this as industry standards and thought why change?

*I have been in the tree care industry for over 20 years and have seen things change tremendously. I expect as much change in the next 20 years. This is why we need to be involved in our industry associations and stay abreast of the new science and technology.*

Jlarnard----But basically that liability is an issue to companies that top trees.

*This is true because indiscriminate topping is against ANSI A300 pruning standards. It is a form of malpractice. There are companies that have gotten sued for topping trees.*

Just at least try to sell them on a lesser destructive means.

*No, educate them on the correct means and then stand your ground!*

Clearance----Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?

*If you are an utility arborist, you have few options in line clearance procedures. The utilitiy companies have a moral and legal right to keep their lines clear of trees. I have people complain to me about utility clearance trimming and my reply is to them…do you like your electricity?? Would you like to see a little boy or girl get electrocuted?? Keep up the good work and keep those lines clear. When possible remove and replace with the right tree .*

Ddhlakebound---- But I really don't think this thread is about utility topping.

*This is correct. The issue is the topping of residential trees sold as proper tree care. This has to stop! The providers of these “hack” services are either: 1. Inexperienced or illegitimate tree services. Or, 2. Very immoral and unethical tree services that know better, but do not care. In both of these cases we as an industry need to stand up and confront these “hackers”. I called our county commissioners on one of these tree services and tried to get them banned from operating in the county. They were the traveling type. I call them “tree gypsy’s”. They could never operate a business staying in one place, but travel to remote and rural areas where there is no competition. They have already been run out of one state by the state attorney general, and told never to cross the state line. *


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## Jlarnard (Sep 26, 2008)

I too agree, powerline clearing has to be done. Just like big beautiful healthy trees being cut down in residential.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 26, 2008)

there's something some people are missing and that is.......if the customer wants topping or hat rack then they will get it from somebody and like I said before, if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day, call me a hack if you please but if we both were starving and all we could find was a topping job then I'd be eating like a fat cat that night and you'd be begging for my scraps.................


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## ddhlakebound (Sep 26, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> there's something some people are missing and that is.......if the customer wants topping or hat rack then they will get it from somebody and like I said before, if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day, call me a hack if you please but if we both were starving and all we could find was a topping job then I'd be eating like a fat cat that night and you'd be begging for my scraps.................



Are you starving?

Do you think that if you refused to do a substandard job that at least some of them would realize that because you refuse to destroy their trees that topping is the wrong thing to do?

Do you think that you're more likely to end up starving by developing a clientele of people who want a good job done, or a clientele of people who want the cheapest job done?

Do you think that people ask you to top their trees because of your reputation as a tree topper?


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## BCMA (Sep 27, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> there's something some people are missing and that is.......if the customer wants topping or hat rack then they will get it from somebody and like I said before, if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day, call me a hack if you please but if we both were starving and all we could find was a topping job then I'd be eating like a fat cat that night and you'd be begging for my scraps.................



I would rather pride myself in making decisions what is best for the client and community. People who want their trees topped are usually misinformed or confused about what they want. A little time and explaining of proper tree care usually is sufficient to persuade the client towards proper tree care.

Money should never be the determining factor for deciding what is the right thing to do. For how much money are you willing to sell your intergrity? If it is for money, are you willing to lie, steal, and cheat? Does the end justify the means? Would you celebrate Christmas with a stolen Christmas tree in order to save money? 

I would rather go hungry than eat a stolen steak!


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## clearance (Sep 27, 2008)

BCMA said:


> I would rather pride myself in making decisions what is best for the client and community. People who want their trees topped are usually misinformed or confused about what they want. A little time and explaining of proper tree care usually is sufficient to persuade the client towards proper tree care.
> 
> Money should never be the determining factor for deciding what is the right thing to do. For how much money are you willing to sell your intergrity? If it is for money, are you willing to lie, steal, and cheat? Does the end justify the means? Would you celebrate Christmas with a stolen Christmas tree in order to save money?
> 
> I would rather go hungry than eat a stolen steak!



It is not a crime to top trees, nor is it a crime to paint a '69 Camaro pink, nor a crime to listen to Celine Dion, just not right, thats all. 
After all is explained and they still want it topped, it is still thier tree, is it so wrong to do as the customer wants?


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## BCMA (Sep 27, 2008)

clearance said:


> It is not a crime to top trees, nor is it a crime to paint a '69 Camaro pink, nor a crime to listen to Celine Dion, just not right, thats all.
> After all is explained and they still want it topped, it is still thier tree, is it so wrong to do as the customer wants?



That is a good question. Let's try to think our way through this. Let's suppose you are a professional tree care provider that has applied yourself in keeping abreast of the latest research, education, certifications, associations, etc. Your community, town, city, or village looks to you as the most knowledgeable, experienced, and trust-worthy tree guy. Great! 

Mr. Jones who lives on Main Street wants to have his beautiful 80 year old sycamore tree topped because he thinks it’s too big, and his neighbor Mr. Smith just had his trees topped by Crack-head Tree Service, located here in town. Mr. Jones is a banker and knows nothing about proper tree care, but sees what his neighbor had done to his tree.

You try to explain to Mr. Jones that topping his beautiful 80 year old sycamore trees is not the proper thing to do, and that topping will create tremendous problems for the tree in years to come. But Mr. Jones replies that his neighbor Mr. Smith just had his trees topped by Crack-head Tree Service, and he has received a quote from them for the same topping service. You find out that Crack-head Tree Service has told him that if his tree is not topped, it is going to fall over and kill him and his wife…(have you ever heard that one!)

So, what do you do. Remember…you are the professional. You don’t do drugs. You are the arborist everyone looks up to to take care of the cities trees…professionally.

Let’s say you take the job and top, butcher, mutilate, destroy, and hack his beautiful 80 year old sycamore tree all for only $1,200.00 bucks! How do you feel? Are you proud of your job? Are you proud of your profession? Are you proud of your reputation?

You have just lowered yourself to the level of Crack-head Tree Service and the other hacks. You are no longer worthy of the reputation you once had. Now, the Mayor of your town and other citizens who drove down Main Street and watched you destroy that beautiful 80 year old sycamore tree, now have big questions as to your understand of proper tree care. You see the Mayor and other citizens just may be enlightened and understand that this is not good for trees, and you just put your stamp of approval on it. You lowered yourself to the same standard as Crack-head Tree Service.

I decided long ago, as soon as I knew better, to do right regardless of the outcome. My integrity and reputation is worth much more to me than $1,200.00 bucks. I want to be viewed as someone people can trust to give the right and proper information, and do the right things. I will not lower my standards as set forth by our industry, and please, let me encourage you and others to do the same.


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## clearance (Sep 27, 2008)

You lost me in the first couple of sentences. I am a utility arborist, so, I am on the bottom rung of arborism (is that even a word). 

I would advise against topping the tree, but if Mr. Jones wants it topped he will get the phone # of Crack-Head tree service from his neighbor Mr. Smith. Thats how it works out in the real world and..............Crack-Head tree service will be topping Mr. Jones tree. 

My reputation means a lot to me, I don't think that many people would look that far down on me for topping trees. If I was lazy, or a thief, yes. But I work hard and produce. So I guess it comes down to-do you want the money or do you want Crack-Head tree service to have the money? 'Cause the tree is getting topped.


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## BCMA (Sep 27, 2008)

clearance said:


> It is not a crime to top trees, nor is it a crime to paint a '69 Camaro pink, nor a crime to listen to Celine Dion, just not right, thats all.
> After all is explained and they still want it topped, it is still thier tree, is it so wrong to do as the customer wants?



BTW...In some cities, and in the city I operate in, it is a crime to top a tree that is within the cities jurisdiction, and is punishable with a fine or jail time. I believe that some cities in California may have an ordinance forbidding the topping of trees, even on private property.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 27, 2008)

As long as everyone has an opinion, I will throw my 2cents in here. I top trees that I have to, don't advise it and try to do anything I can to get around it. Always try to leave a good leader. If the self proclaimed elite want to look down on me, fine, you will find me workin with the rest of the blue collars.


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## BCMA (Sep 27, 2008)

clearance said:


> You lost me in the first couple of sentences. I am a utility arborist, so, I am on the bottom rung of arborism (is that even a word).
> 
> I would advise against topping the tree, but if Mr. Jones wants it topped he will get the phone # of Crack-Head tree service from his neighbor Mr. Smith. Thats how it works out in the real world and..............Crack-Head tree service will be topping Mr. Jones tree.
> 
> My reputation means a lot to me, I don't think that many people would look that far down on me for topping trees. If I was lazy, or a thief, yes. But I work hard and produce. So I guess it comes down to-do you want the money or do you want Crack-Head tree service to have the money? 'Cause the tree is getting topped.



I have a tremendous respect for utility arborists. I would not want your job as I do not like the thought of getting bit by electricity. 

Giving the job, and the $1,200 bucks to Crack-head Tree Service does not bother me. We lose jobs to low-bidders and bottom feeders every day. Some of them may even be utility guys doing side work with no license, insurance, or workman’s compensation (sorry for the poke  ).

What bothers me is all the future work I might lose, and the loss of my reputation for doing such a crappy job! The word might get out that I'm nothing more than a hack! 

Not to mention…it’s just wrong!


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## BCMA (Sep 27, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> As long as everyone has an opinion, I will throw my 2cents in here. I top trees that I have to, don't advise it and try to do anything I can to get around it. Always try to leave a good leader. If the self proclaimed elite want to look down on me, fine, you will find me workin with the rest of the blue collars.



But guys, we don't have to do this sub-standard work to stay in business. Why can't we educate the public as to what is proper tree care. We have the standards written for us in the ANSI standards, and other publications. As long as we as an industry allow sloppy tree work, we will never progress to be viewed by the public as a professional industry!

We are viewed by some as sleaze-bags. Have saw…will travel…will work for beer mentality. Our industry deserves better than this. We will never dig ourselves out of this stigma until we start operating as professionals, and providing professional industry standard services.


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## clearance (Sep 27, 2008)

Fine, each to his own. I am with Nailsbeats 100% on this. I see you have a bunch of qualifications, lots in fact. Just the title ISA arborist goes right to some peoples heads here, if they had all your credentials their heads would probably explode. 

Calling people bottom feeders, lowballers and crack heads isn't really embracing your fellow treemen. The stigma you speak of, "sleazebags and work for beer....we will never dig ourselves out of this unless......"

I am not ashamed of a single freakin thing I have done in or to a tree. Not topping them or always climbing with spurs. Or going on major tree killing massacres. Any of it.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 27, 2008)

*Do you really think people will come around?*

You can look in any blue collar industry and see the same thing regardless of regulations. There's still shoddy carpentry, masonry, plumbing, etc. and those industries have been around much longer than ours. I'm sure they have plenty of regulations and "societies" that require everything to be done a certain way and people still price shop those categories as well. IMO, HO's have three options...

-Look for the absolute best...equipment, training, accreditation, etc. and pay for it.

-Look for good work from guys that know their job and just haven't spent the time or money getting little certificates that say so and pay a fair price.

-Look for the cheapest and get what you pay for.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 27, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> Are you starving?
> 
> Do you think that if you refused to do a substandard job that at least some of them would realize that because you refuse to destroy their trees that topping is the wrong thing to do?
> 
> ...


hell no I ain't starving and don't plan to be either...................obviously you missed my first post in this thread where I stated that I explain to them that it is wrong so here is is for you. 



Rftreeman said:


> I tell them it's not the right thing to do but if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day. I use to ask them to call someone else and walk away from these jobs but I have to keep the business running...................I'll bet there are a whole bunch of people here who claim to never do it but I'll bet they have and will again....



You will never convince all the people that hat racking or topping is wrong no matter how hard you try there will always be the ones who want it done and if I explain that it's wrong what more can I do, I'm trying to be right but I'm not giving up money and I'm not known as a "topper" (very rarely do I top) I'm known as a guy who does tree and lawn work and does good work and gives the customer what they want at a good price so if that makes me a hack in your book then so be it but like I said I won't be starving at the end of the day.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 27, 2008)

Thats right Blakes, your gonna have it all top to bottom and in between in any industry, regulations never really change that. You can always find a fly by nighter at a cheaper price, for everything.

You know why you won't convince everybody?, because they've seen it done and seen how nice the tree comes back and they like it. 

You can tell them all about how it stresses the tree, causes weak attached wood to grow, causes premature rot and decay, but they still love topping and re-topping. It makes them feel safer knowing you reduced all the weight and height and it will come right back greener than ever until you have to remove it, prolonging its life for now, as opposed to removing it immediately.

That's what I get from many homeowners. Maybe they'd listen more if I had a little certification badge on my shirt, but I don't so I don't know, but I could guess.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 27, 2008)

BCMA said:


> I would rather pride myself in making decisions what is best for the client and community. People who want their trees topped are usually misinformed or confused about what they want. A little time and explaining of proper tree care usually is sufficient to persuade the client towards proper tree care.
> 
> Money should never be the determining factor for deciding what is the right thing to do. For how much money are you willing to sell your intergrity? If it is for money, are you willing to lie, steal, and cheat? Does the end justify the means? Would you celebrate Christmas with a stolen Christmas tree in order to save money?
> 
> I would rather go hungry than eat a stolen steak!


oh, so now I'm a thief ..................give me a break...........maybe you missed my first post also so here it is for you 



Rftreeman said:


> I tell them it's not the right thing to do but if they insist then I'm going to the bank with their check at the end of the day. I use to ask them to call someone else and walk away from these jobs but I have to keep the business running...................I'll bet there are a whole bunch of people here who claim to never do it but I'll bet they have and will again....


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## Rftreeman (Sep 27, 2008)

BCMA said:


> BTW...In some cities, and in the city I operate in, it is a crime to top a tree that is within the cities jurisdiction, and is punishable with a fine or jail time. I believe that some cities in California may have an ordinance forbidding the topping of trees, even on private property.


this is nothing more than communism ..........did I spell that right?


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## tree MDS (Sep 27, 2008)

clearance said:


> Could you please answer my question, how do you trim a tree planted under the line is growing up into the line?
> 
> 
> I have topped many of these trees, even under 500kv lines. I think they should be sawed right down, but the treehuggers and sometimes fish huggers are not cool with that.
> ...


Alright dude, to clear this up: all I meant was that that link was not a to a standard crown reduction- it was a link to crown reduction for powerline trimming, not residential work!! In that picture the powerlines were dictating the cuts, not the ansi standard for a crown reduction as it would apply to residential treework! Incedently this type of trimming is not done in my area really, I learned it in FL. It is an art that much I'll say. And sorry for the coments about powerline hacks. I'm sure yours is a thankless job. And yes trim that tree as dipicted. As for the arborist retard comment.. I'll let that one slide, an eye for an eye, lol.


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## teamtree (Sep 27, 2008)

Well, after 10 years of talking to walls I am starting to get my point across that topping is bad. It does not mean much when the market desires to have their trees topped. You can educate all you want and yes some clients will listen, but at the end of the day topping is not going away. Call me a hack if I give in to the customer...he is paying the bill. I am to the point where I walk from the requests of topping as their is really no money in it for the most part. But if someone has 6 removals and insists on a topping of one tree...I will do it with no problem. I am a sell out. At the end of the day I am selling a service and I am for hire as well as my equipment. I am also for hire if you want my opinion on what to do and I will tell you the right thing to do.

I say it is the same thing as going out to eat. They sell the #### out of the food that is bad for us. They sell cigarettes, booze, otc medications. Those things are not bad for us? 

Topping is bad? Really...If a person wants to destroy their tree it is their tree to destroy.


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## tree MDS (Sep 27, 2008)

Serious question here: if you have an arborist licence and you say topped some trees comercially like for a bank or something, well your competitor sees it and turns you in, then what?? do you just get fined or can you lose your licence or what?? I forget.


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## teamtree (Sep 27, 2008)

No license required in our area. 

And in the nearest city in which a license is required...the homeowner can get a waiver to have their trees topped.

Here is a question for you...a local bank with 20 locations has topped their trees for years. In fact, years ago one of their guys calls me on a Sunday to ask if I wanted some work. He wanted me to chip the limbs from the trees they were trimming. I needed the work so I went to chip the limbs. Next thing you know he wants me to finish his work with my bucket truck. Hey, instead of him getting hurt I save him the trouble and he is happy to pay me to do the work. 

A new maintenance guy comes in and they start doing it themselves again. Now they are calling me again to get their trees "topped" professionally...their words not mine. 

I have the dilemna now of either talking them into a crown restoration job or removal. Well they don't want either. They want their ####ing trees topped.

I hate to say I would rather topped their trees than have some other guy do it...at the risk of looking like a hack. 

I would just as soon stick to removals and let the trimming go so I do not have to educate my customers. 

How many of you question your doctors prescriptions? How many arborists get told what to do despite their recommendations? I would say less than 5% of the tree services out their can say they never do something against their judgement because the customer told them to do so. 

This industry is ####ed up. It is like a leaky dam...you get one tree service to change their way and there are 5 others out there filling the gap and topping trees. 

I am tired of talking about it.


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## tree MDS (Sep 27, 2008)

I think the idea is that over time the plan will come together and generally produce a better industry- through fines and more education. Old school hatrackers will eventually fade as people adopt better ways. Of course that wont work if everyone just caves in right off I suppose.  Not that I really care.


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## tree MDS (Sep 27, 2008)

I know its the Conecticut Tree Protective Association, I think. Its not areal worry sinse I dont top, but yeah we've got them. I dont think they really inforce much- of course no one really does topping around here, at least not in my imediate area. I'm lucky enough to be in a ritchie section. However it would be funny to see Susan St. James's trees get hatracked- or Micheal J. Fox, can you picture his reaction: "They're F#$$#@# hacked!!" all pissed off, lol.


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## Jlarnard (Sep 27, 2008)

Gosh I have enjoyed this thread I created. I see both sides points. I actually had 2 down days this week alone. If this becomes common place, I still wont top trees. But in my initial post I wanted to know what others thought. Now I have a better understanding as to why people would top. Maybe I can just wave my hand instead of my finger at them as I drive by. As long as you make sure to educate the customer, I guess..... Heck no what am I saying... Stop topping residential trees for pete's sake. Justification doesn't fix the problem.


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## lxt (Sep 27, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Lxt----todays standards will not be the same tommorrow, the standards 20yrs ago are still used because people saw this as industry standards and thought why change?
> 
> *I have been in the tree care industry for over 20 years and have seen things change tremendously. I expect as much change in the next 20 years. This is why we need to be involved in our industry associations and stay abreast of the new science and technology.*
> 
> ...



I also have been in the tree care field for over 20yrs, second generation! my father for almost 40yrs...... truth is... shigo comes out makes some theoretical points and now lets adopt them as an industry standard for all lines of work.

when I worked LCTT the inspector was big on shigo... but I think shigo would of thought otherwise!! what im saying is trying to talk people out of topping their tree(s) that have been topped for the past 20yrs doesnt fly..tried it!

funny how if I mention a crown reduction no more than 1/3rd & pull the ends to laterals 1/3rd this is ok??? some people think this is topping!!! they dont know the language of our industry, ive had people tell me top my maple and make a ball out of it......so I crown reduce & pull ends all to laterals 1/3rd!! they think I topped their tree!!!

Honestly.... if I plant it then why cant I do as I want with it? next will be grass cutters talking about proper mowing techniques and how a sharp blade is better........& they`re probably right!! but I dont think there will be anyone making laws about it like in the tree care field.


LXT........


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## lxt (Sep 27, 2008)

teamtree.............good post!!

LXT.......


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## clearance (Sep 28, 2008)

BCMA said:


> But



You are not allowed to use the ISA logo without supplying your name and number also. This is against the ISA rules. The person to report you to for this violation is Ann Jerutka at 217-355-9411 ext 207.

I ain't going to report you, I couldn't care less, but with all them letters behind your name I think you should know this.


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## teamtree (Sep 28, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> I think the idea is that over time the plan will come together and generally produce a better industry- through fines and more education. Old school hatrackers will eventually fade as people adopt better ways. Of course that wont work if everyone just caves in right off I suppose.  Not that I really care.




I don't give in right off the bat and I do care. I am just saying it is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. I wish I could walk away from what the customers want despite being educated. 

My dad tops his trees every year and they come back every year just as pretty as he likes. I would not go to some school and say top all your trees, but if some little lady down the street wants her trees trimmed every 2 years like her late husband has done for 40 years, who is really being hurt????

All I am saying is do what you can to persuade and educate the public and let everything else fall in place. 

I have also found that when you tell someone right off the bat that if they want their trees topped that you are not interested in doing that kind of work then they listen to what you have to say...but sometimes it does no good.


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## tree MDS (Sep 28, 2008)

Thats some real sweet sugar-coating there teamtree, what flavor is that?? B.S. ?? No just bustin! Good post I'll rep that, lol.


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## BCMA (Sep 29, 2008)

I would like to qualify myself by saying there are exceptions to the rule of "no topping". I do not have the time to go into all the various scenarios at this time. 

The word “topping” is used loosely, and may be confused with legitimate types of pruning for various situations, reasons, and effects. 
What I’m talking about is when a perfectly healthy, vigorous, non-violated mature trees are topped indiscriminately. I’m talking about taking a large healthy tree and making 8, or 10, or 12 inch cuts, and removing 35 feet or so. Exposing the tree to die-back, heart-rot, excessive sprouts, etc.

Here are some attachments of pictures I’ve taken of some topping jobs. Not mine of course. 

Remember, there are many scenarios of various pruning types. Heading-cuts, proper reduction cuts (drop-crotch), subordination cuts are not necessarily “topping”.

What about height reduction for vistas? 

What about mitigating hazards or tree defects?

These pictures are pictures of “topping”.


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## masterarbor (Sep 29, 2008)

Those are some fine looking coat racks!


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## treeseer (Sep 29, 2008)

"ive had people tell me top my maple and make a ball out of it......so I crown reduce & pull ends all to laterals 1/3rd!! "

Sounds like a reasonable compromise. The crap about "The Customer is always right" and "I gotta eat" and "If I don't do it..." shows little concern for integrity.


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## clearance (Sep 29, 2008)

treeseer said:


> shows little concern for integrity.



Topping trees is not in the same category as lying, cheating and stealing. Or driving while impaired, kicking a dog and a host of other things. 

All it is is doing an improper tree service practice. Actually if there is a good reason, like a powerline or a view, there is nothing wrong with it.

Using the word integrity like you are here is misuse of the English langauge.


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## Jlarnard (Sep 30, 2008)

clearance said:


> Topping trees is not in the same category as lying, cheating and stealing. Or driving while impaired, kicking a dog and a host of other things.
> 
> All it is is doing an improper tree service practice. Actually if there is a good reason, like a powerline or a view, there is nothing wrong with it.
> 
> Using the word integrity like you are here is misuse of the English langauge.



Kicking dogs is bad?


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## Bearcreek (Sep 30, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Thank you for the kind words and welcome.
> 
> Illustration: Last week I went to three doctors to talk to them about the maintenance and care of my fingernails. I told them I was tired of cleaning and clipping my nails, and that I wanted to have my fingers removed at the second knuckle. Regardless of how much I tried to persuade the doctors to cut off my fingers, and regardless of how much money I offered to pay them for this service, each doctor declined to cut off my fingers. Think of how much money they could have made!
> 
> ...



Well, you could just move to a communist country. That way the government can tell you everything you can and can't do. Sound's like what we'd continue to head for if your changes are implemented.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 30, 2008)

Jlarnard said:


> Kicking dogs is bad?



Lol. Where I come from we swerve at em' and door em', roll baby roll!!!!!!!!


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 30, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Thank you for the kind words and welcome.
> 
> Illustration: Last week I went to three doctors to talk to them about the maintenance and care of my fingernails. I told them I was tired of cleaning and clipping my nails, and that I wanted to have my fingers removed at the second knuckle. Regardless of how much I tried to persuade the doctors to cut off my fingers, and regardless of how much money I offered to pay them for this service, each doctor declined to cut off my fingers. Think of how much money they could have made!
> 
> ...




Sounds like you're one step away from wiping your a$$ with gold toilet paper, must be nice.


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## tree MDS (Sep 30, 2008)

BCMA said:


> I would like to qualify myself by saying there are exceptions to the rule of "no topping". I do not have the time to go into all the various scenarios at this time.
> 
> The word “topping” is used loosely, and may be confused with legitimate types of pruning for various situations, reasons, and effects.
> What I’m talking about is when a perfectly healthy, vigorous, non-violated mature trees are topped indiscriminately. I’m talking about taking a large healthy tree and making 8, or 10, or 12 inch cuts, and removing 35 feet or so. Exposing the tree to die-back, heart-rot, excessive sprouts, etc.
> ...


I like the fith pic down. They even hatracked the hedges, lol.


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## treemandan (Sep 30, 2008)

teamtree said:


> I don't give in right off the bat and I do care. I am just saying it is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. I wish I could walk away from what the customers want despite being educated.
> 
> My dad tops his trees every year and they come back every year just as pretty as he likes. I would not go to some school and say top all your trees, but if some little lady down the street wants her trees trimmed every 2 years like her late husband has done for 40 years, who is really being hurt????
> 
> ...



Yup.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 30, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> You can look in any blue collar industry and see the same thing regardless of regulations. There's still shoddy carpentry, masonry, plumbing, etc. and those industries have been around much longer than ours. I'm sure they have plenty of regulations and "societies" that require everything to be done a certain way and people still price shop those categories as well. IMO, HO's have three options...
> 
> -Look for the absolute best...equipment, training, accreditation, etc. and pay for it.
> 
> ...



Yup.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 30, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yup.



Yup.......


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## BCMA (Oct 1, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Last week I went to three doctors to talk to them about the maintenance and care of my fingernails. I told them I was tired of cleaning and clipping my nails, and that I wanted to have my fingers removed at the second knuckle. Regardless of how much I tried to persuade the doctors to cut off my fingers, and regardless of how much money I offered to pay them for this service, each doctor declined to cut off my fingers. Think of how much money they could have made!



Today has been my lucky day...! Today I got my fingers cut off! I mentioned in a previous post that I've been to some doctors to have my fingers cut off (read the above post). Well, today we had a doctor in our neighborhood going door to door looking for some work. He said that he was slow at the office today, and that he needed some extra money. I explained to him my dilemma about my fingernails, and that I wanted my fingers cut of at the second knuckle. At first he was hesitant to cut my fingers off until I explained to him that they were my fingers, and that I could do with them what I want! I also told him that if he did not cut off my fingers, I would go to someone else, and they would get the money! He said, “No problem, I’m your man!” I think his card read, “Have knife-will travel”.

Before the operation I asked him about his credentials. He seemed about a little irritated that I would question his credentials and experience. I was curious about his college education, certifications, accreditations, continuing education, insurances, you-know, stuff like that. Now, don’t get me wrong—not that it is important that a doctor would have to go through all this education and insurance stuff! Let’s get real, this guy told me that all that education crap was just for those sophisticated- stuffy- white coated- brainless- doctors that thought that they were better than “us-guys” out trying to make a living! About this time I had to try to calm him down a little. He then told me that he has been cutting fingers off for a long time, and had probably cut off more fingers that all the doctors in town combined! I asked him about his insurance and said that he could not afford insurance because he normally just worked evenings or on weekends. But, he assured me that he could do the job, and he would be a lot cheaper not having to carry all that overhead. 

I was beginning to question if I should really go through with this until he assured me that this would be to my benefit. If I had my fingers cut off, I would not have to clip or clean the finger nails; there would be no more tendency to flip the finger; and I would no longer have to worry about slamming them in the car door! Lower risk!! So, he talked me into it, and I had them cut off for about half the price of the other doctors in town. Actually, the other doctors in town would not even give me a price to cut off the fingers! They told me that it was against their professional standards and personal ethics. Imagine that! What gall! 

The doctor did a really good job of cutting my fingers off. But now I’m getting a little confused. My friends are telling me that I never should have done this, and that my hand will never be the same. They also told me about the infections that can set in, and I’m having a hard time typing. I have tried to call the doctor, but he won’t answer his phone. I hope I did the right thing.


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## Jlarnard (Oct 1, 2008)

Like sands in the hourglass....


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 1, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Today has been my lucky day...! Today I got my fingers cut off! I mentioned in a previous post that I've been to some doctors to have my fingers cut off (read the above post). Well, today we had a doctor in our neighborhood going door to door looking for some work. He said that he was slow at the office today, and that he needed some extra money. I explained to him my dilemma about my fingernails, and that I wanted my fingers cut of at the second knuckle. At first he was hesitant to cut my fingers off until I explained to him that they were my fingers, and that I could do with them what I want! I also told him that if he did not cut off my fingers, I would go to someone else, and they would get the money! He said, “No problem, I’m your man!” I think his card read, “Have knife-will travel”.
> 
> Before the operation I asked him about his credentials. He seemed about a little irritated that I would question his credentials and experience. I was curious about his college education, certifications, accreditations, continuing education, insurances, you-know, stuff like that. Now, don’t get me wrong—not that it is important that a doctor would have to go through all this education and insurance stuff! Let’s get real, this guy told me that all that education crap was just for those sophisticated- stuffy- white coated- brainless- doctors that thought that they were better than “us-guys” out trying to make a living! About this time I had to try to calm him down a little. He then told me that he has been cutting fingers off for a long time, and had probably cut off more fingers that all the doctors in town combined! I asked him about his insurance and said that he could not afford insurance because he normally just worked evenings or on weekends. But, he assured me that he could do the job, and he would be a lot cheaper not having to carry all that overhead.
> 
> ...




Plant new fingers and burn the old ones, dipsh!t.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 1, 2008)

I wanna see you reattach a broken branch.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 1, 2008)

...Dr.


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## tree MDS (Oct 1, 2008)

Lol. It is a little much really. Guy puts in a good effort though.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 1, 2008)

BCMA said:


> The doctor did a really good job of cutting my fingers off. But now I’m getting a little confused. My friends are telling me that I never should have done this, and that my hand will never be the same.


at least the trees will grow back but you're screwed...........................comparing people to trees is no comparison, you can't be put on death row for killing a tree so please stop comparing people to trees............























yes, I know he didn't really cut of his fingers.......................


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## BCMA (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks for the PM. I really do not expect the general public to understand or embrace what proper tree care is. It is up to the industry and concerned individuals in our industry to take a stand for what is right. What I find is amazing is that most, if not all of the people on this website agree that indiscriminate topping of mature trees is not healthy for the tree, and that we have standards as an industry that forbids this type of pruning in a general sense. But, rather than take the high road and adopt a higher standard of operation, they will continue to provide sub-standard services. Money being the motivating factor.

The tree care industry unfortunately is not viewed by many in the public as a professional profession. Almost all professional professions have regulatory boards, licenses, code of ethics, etc. Tree care in most states and cities have little to none of this. Therefore, all you need to be a tree care provider is really….nothing! BTW, this is how I started out back in the mid 80’s. I quit topping trees shortly after I started in the tree care business, and after one of my jobs ended up on the evening news as an example of what not to do to a tree. Quite embarrassing! Shortly after that I heard about the ISA and became a certified arborist. That is what started my quest for learning and education. 

I have been in the tree care industry going on 25 years now. I will finish my working career in this industry, and figure I have another 10 to 15 years. I see how our profession has advanced in the past twenty years. We have made tremendous advancements. I’m at the point where I’m tired of seeing our profession not get the respect it deserves, and we are reasons for this. One of the reasons is that we as an industry will, and do allow, work to be performed that is against all arboriculture standards. We will also allow illegitimate owners and operators to work without proper training, insurance, workman’s compensation, paying employees under the table, violating safety standards, licensing, etc..

I have decided it is time someone stands up and says this is wrong and needs to change. Some of you out there are working hard to build a business and have a general desire to do what is right. Some of you could care less as you have indicated in your replies. These messages are not necessarily meant for you because of your closed mind and inability to adapt to change, but for the person who may be on the fence and wants better for themselves and their profession. I am willing to take this stand publicly and put my name on it.

I would like to encourage others to take a stand for the professionalism of our industry by supporting the various tree care associations, ANSI standards, legal business operations, and quality tree work that will adhere to accepted standards. This may not make you popular, but it is the right thing to do.

The tree care industry as a whole will never rise above the lowest common denominator. As long as we allow the illegitimate and the hacks to operate and represent our industry, this is how we will be viewed as a whole. The replies on this thread has confirmed this. Is there anyone who is willing to take a stand?


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## clearance (Oct 1, 2008)

I am a utility arborist, I have cut down or trimmed thousand of trees around powerlines. I am thought of and called a hack by many because I climb with spurs at all times. 

I am a certified utility arborist, a recognized trade in this province. Unlike I.S.A. certification, which is not a trade. 

Tim, I believe you have issues regarding treework, perhaps you have feelings of inadaquecy, perhaps you feel you do not get the respect you deserve.

All I need is the respect of tree guys I like. Thats all it takes, without that I would be very upset. What joe public thinks, I don't give a flying f.

I make proper cuts, I top trees if thats what the customer really desires. I cut trees down. I sleep well at night. Quit trying to make it out like treework is rocket science or open heart surgery, it takes a lot of skill, but trees ain't people. I can kill trees all day long, a new one will be along, its no big deal.


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## BCMA (Oct 1, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> at least the trees will grow back but you're screwed...........................comparing people to trees is no comparison, you can't be put on death row for killing a tree so please stop comparing people to trees............ I know he didn't really cut of his fingers.......................



The satire of the illustration was to compare the “door-to-door” doctor that is willing to cut off fingers if asked to, to the “arborist” that is willing to top healthy trees and call it acceptable. And, I do understand that there are exceptions to the rule depending on the situation.

If this truly had happened, and a doctor did cut off my fingers, what would the medical profession have to say about the practices of this doctor. Don’t you suppose he would lose his license and ability to operate as a doctor. I think so!

My point is that we as an industry need to start looking seriously at our standards of operation, and work to raise the level of the public perception of our industry. The fact that bad tree work still exist is not the real problem. It is a symptom of the problem. The real problem lies in the fact that anyone can perform tree work regardless of their qualifications, and legitimacy. If this was to change, then those performing lousy tree work would get thrown out! It would cause those who were serious about their profession to straighten up. It would cause more work to go to legitimate services. The public would benefit with a higher degree of professionalism. 

We need to wake up and understand what this is doing to us!


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## BCMA (Oct 1, 2008)

clearance said:


> I am a utility arborist, I have cut down or trimmed thousand of trees around powerlines. I am thought of and called a hack by many because I climb with spurs at all times.
> 
> I am a certified utility arborist, a recognized trade in this province. Unlike I.S.A. certification, which is not a trade.
> 
> ...



One of my specialties is precision timber felling of big trees in tight locations. I’ve been doing it for years. 

Here are some pictures from last week.

BTW, I do not put utility clearance in the same category as residential tree care. Two different animals with fir. Your job requires clearing those lines which is not an easy job. Thank you for the good job you do!


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## clearance (Oct 1, 2008)

*Elite*



BCMA said:


> The real problem lies in the fact that anyone can perform tree work regardless of their qualifications, and legitimacy. If this was to change, then those performing lousy tree work would get thrown out!



This is the real issue here for you, BCMA, culling the herd for more money and more prestige for the elite such as yourself. The constant bleating that "we" are not held in high esteem by the public is not the main thing at all.

Let me guess, only ISA certified people can do treework? Or something like that?


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## clearance (Oct 1, 2008)

BCMA said:


> One of my specialties is precision timber felling of big trees in tight locations. I’ve been doing it for years.
> 
> Here are some pictures from last week.
> 
> BTW, I do not put utility clearance in the same category as residential tree care. Two different animals with fir.



These are not pictures of precision timber felling, dig up something else. I see a huge opening and an excavator (big yellow wedge). 

And I do residential tree work exactly the same as I do utility work, just not as much fun with no power!


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## treeseer (Oct 1, 2008)

clearance said:


> Quit trying to make it out like treework is rocket science


You're right; it's not.

It's harder, because trees are alive, and changing with the changes all around them.

If the herd needs to be culled it's because many are sick and doing damage.


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## kennertree (Oct 1, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I'm standing right there with you and have been for years!



Me too.


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## juststumps (Oct 1, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Plant new fingers and burn the old ones, dipsh!t.



ROTFLMAO !!!!


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## Rftreeman (Oct 1, 2008)

:deadhorse:  OK, we get the point, topping is wrong and "we" need to stop doing tree work unless we have a bunch of titles behind our name and we also need to refuse to make money by giving the customer what they want and trees have feelings and they hurt when we top them.............


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## clearance (Oct 1, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> :deadhorse:  OK, we get the point, topping is wrong and "we" need to stop doing tree work unless we have a bunch of titles behind our name and we also need to refuse to make money by giving the customer what they want and trees have feelings and they hurt when we top them.............



yup.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 1, 2008)

opcorn:


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## yooper (Oct 1, 2008)

BCMA said:


> One of my specialties is precision timber felling of big trees in tight locations. I’ve been doing it for years.
> 
> Here are some pictures from last week.
> 
> BTW, I do not put utility clearance in the same category as residential tree care. Two different animals with fir. Your job requires clearing those lines which is not an easy job. Thank you for the good job you do!



wow man I really liked the story before..but it can and will be taken wrong by most tree huggers...watch out they take things out of context...but good story
As for the percision felling.........looks like logging to me...been there done that started when I was 13 now I do precision felling...learned allot from books but never learned that there. O ya I do it around obstacles not other trees.....good story though..although If I have an infected or diseased finger I still wont cut it off even if I cut a infected or diseased tree limb off. or even if you say its a good idea.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

yooper said:


> "Never argue with an idiot; They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"



Thank you for the tag line. I will take you advice and apply it to some of the replies I've received in this thread! :agree2:


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## yooper (Oct 2, 2008)

no problem my friend no porblem.


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## clearance (Oct 2, 2008)

clearance said:


> These are not pictures of precision timber felling, dig up something else. I see a huge opening and an excavator (big yellow wedge).
> 
> And I do residential tree work exactly the same as I do utility work, just not as much fun with no power!



Yooper, I said it, last page. Thats just easy logging. 
If I could use a computer and scan pictures with the tech stuff I don't have, I would post some pics of me falling big pines between houses. Now that was precision, that or jump in your truck and leave town pronto.


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## yooper (Oct 2, 2008)

clearance said:


> Yooper, I said it, last page. Thats just easy logging.
> If I could use a computer and scan pictures with the tech stuff I don't have, I would post some pics of me falling big pines between houses. Now that was precision, that or jump in your truck and leave town pronto.



dude I hear ya loud and clear.  I did get a little excited befor seeing his photos....:deadhorse: just slap me in the ass and call me stupid please!


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## treeseer (Oct 2, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> "we" need to stop doing tree work unless we have a bunch of titles behind our name and we also need to refuse to make money by giving the customer what they want


Titles aren't important; knowledge is.

If the customer wanted another kind of gratification, would you give it if the money was right?:jawdrop: 

Ho ho ho. :greenchainsaw:


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## clearance (Oct 2, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Titles aren't important; knowledge is.
> 
> If the customer wanted another kind of gratification, would you give it if the money was right?:jawdrop:
> 
> Ho ho ho. :greenchainsaw:



I guess if she looked ok and was paying well.......


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm not going to read through the doctor's posts again but I think one of his "regulations" to do tree work was one must be certified, despite the knowledge. We all get the fact that topping is bad but when push comes to shove, it's really only a tree, and there's plenty more.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'm not going to read through the doctor's posts again but I think one of his "regulations" to do tree work was one must be certified, despite the knowledge. We all get the fact that topping is bad but when push comes to shove, it's really only a tree, and there's plenty more.



1. If everyone knows that indiscriminate topping is bad, then why is this type of tree care still practiced? 

2. It may be “only a tree” but why ruin it? Is it because there are many more? That a pretty lame excuse!

3. I am not a Doctor, and never said that someone must be a Certified Arborist to perform tree work. Go back and check my post if you will.

I can see clearly now that there are some on this forum that will continue to “butcher” trees with little to no regard for proper tree care. I also see that by some, education and credentials are frowned upon. 

There may be some young and new arborist that are lurking and that have recently entered this career field. The field of arboriculture is a wonderful and exciting career. It has been a tremendous experience work with people and trees for the past 23 years. Let me encourage you as you progress in this profession to apply yourself in education about trees and proper tree care. The Certified Arborist program is not perfect, but is a good place to start. 

If you are on the fence about this subject, please do not listen to these hacks. What they are doing, and what they promote is not right. There is more to our profession that just making a buck. These guys could care less about what they are doing…”They are just trees”.

ANSI A300 (Part 1)- 2008 Pruning Standards, 

4.51 Topping: Reduction of tree size using internodal cuts without regard to tree health or structural integrity. Topping is not an acceptable pruning practice.

6.1.7 Topping and lion’s tailing shall be considered unacceptable pruning practices for trees.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

http://dnr.state.il.us/conservation/forestry/urban/treetopping.htm

Tree topping is expensive, mutilating and obsolete. Yet it still occurs widely throughout the Midwest. 

WHY?

Myth and lack of public understanding about proper tree care are two major reasons why people pay to have their trees destroyed each year.

What is Tree Topping?
Tree topping is the drastic removal, or cutting back, of large branches in mature trees, leaving large, open wounds which subject the tree to disease and decay. Topping causes immediate injury to the tree and ultimately results in early failure or death of the tree.

Other names for this malpractice include stubbing, heading, heading-back, stubbing-off, tipping hatracking, topping off, dehorning, lopping, or roundover. 

In short, topping - by any name - is the worst thing to do to the health of a tree.

Tree Topping vs. Tree Pruning: No Contest 
Tree topping should never be confused with proper pruning. A topped tree is easy to spot - the tree's natural shape has been destroyed, while a properly pruned tree often looks as if no work has been done at all. With proper pruning, an arborist will spend time carefully selecting and removing branches. Careful selective pruning retains the tree's natural shape and beauty.

Proper pruning is an important part of caring for - and protecting - the health of your trees. In fact, many tree care professionals recommend that homeowners start early and continue proper pruning throughout the life of a tree.


Year 1: The topped tree (left) is an ugly stub. The pruned tree's (right) size was reduced, but its form and beauty retained. Year 3: Fast growing sprouts have sprung from the topped tree (left) in large numbers. The pruned tree (right) adds growth more slowly and naturally. Year 6: The topped tree (left) is taller and bushier than ever. The properly pruned tree (right) is safer, more beautiful and its size is better contolled. 


Tree Topping Myths
People top trees for many reasons, all of them connected to falsehoods and misconceptions.

Myth: Topping a tree will reduce storm damage and make the tree easier to maintain.
Truth: Topped trees can regain their original height in as fast as 2 years. The fast growing, extremely long and loosely attached shoots caused by topping may be more susceptible to breakage and storm damage. Ultimately, a topped tree requires more attention in the future than a properly pruned tree.

Myth: Topping invigorates a tree.
Truth: Topping immediately injures a tree and starts it on a downward spiral. Topping wounds expose a tree to decay and invasion from insects and disease. Also, the loss of foliage starves the tree, which weakens the roots, reducing the tree's structural strength. While a tree may survive topping, its life span will be significantly reduced.

Myth: Topped trees will add value to your property.
Truth: Topped trees lack natural beauty and may reduce your property values. Also, a topped tree can become hazardous and cause property damage, making it a liability.

There Is a Better Way: Alternatives to Topping
As a homeowner, you must educate yourself and make wise choices to protect your home and property - including your trees. A tree is a valuable asset. As a long-term investment, trees require careful decisions and the occasional advice and service of a professional. Here's what you can do to protect your trees:
Hire only competent, insured and certified tree care professionals. 
When seeking a tree service, check the company's topping policy. If they say top, don't let them near your trees.

Find out if the individual or company carries professional certification, particularly through the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA). The ISA conducts extensive course and certifies those that pass an industry-based exam.

Most importantly, never let yourself be pressured by bargains. The old saying, "you get what you pay for" truly applies here.

An Ounce of Prevention: Right Tree, Right Place
Every species of tree has different height, width and spacing needs in order to grown into a healthy mature tree. Carefully matching your tree selection with site conditions - proximity to other trees, buildings or above ground utilities - can prevent problems before they occur and will eliminate the need to take harmful, drastic measures. Many utility companies and forestry agencies provide guidelines for planting trees and recommendations of tree species to fit your needs. Trees are a long-term investment. You have the ability - and the responsibility - to prevent future problems by applying the practice of "the right tree in the right place." 

Information Resources
For more information about caring for your trees, and brochures that explain in greater detail about proper tree pruning and tree selection, contact the organizations below. 

National Arbor Day Foundation can provide information about tree planting and proper pruning:
100 Arbor Avenue
Nebraska City, NE 68410
(402) 474-5655
http://www.arborday.org

International Society of Arboriculture (ISA) can provide information about professional certification and standards:
http://www.isa-arbor.com
Email: [email protected] 

Additional Information:
Breaking Down Two Myths About Tree Topping
Tips to Avoid [Tree] Topping


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

5 REASONS TO STOP TOPPING TREES
By Cass Turnbull
What's wrong with topping?

The misguided practice of tree topping (also referred to as stubbing, dehorning, pollarding, heading, and by several other euphemisms) has risen to crisis proportions nationally over the last decade. Topping has become the urban forest's major threat, dramatically shortening the lifespan of trees and creating hazardous trees in high-traffic areas.

The importance of trees to the urban and global ecology is only now becoming fully known and appreciated. This dawning has not yet been accompanied by adequate public education and sound public policy to ensure tree survival and our own safety.

DON'T TURN YOUR VALUABLE COMMUNITY ASSETS INTO LEGAL, AESTHETIC AND ECONOMIC LIABILITIES! PLEASE READ AND CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING.

1. IT WON'T WORK.

Topping won't work to keep trees small. After a deciduous tree is topped, its growth rate increases. It grows back rapidly in an attempt to replace its missing leaf area. It needs all of its leaves so that it can manufacture food for the trunk and roots. It won't slow down until it reaches about the same size it was before it was topped. It takes at maximum a few years before your tree returns to near its original size.

An exception to the grow-back-to-size rule comes if you damage a tree's health so it hasn't the strength to re-establish itself. It is, in effect, dying and will continue on a downward spiral for years. Topping can't make a significant size difference-not for long. The species or type of tree you have determines its size. A dogwood or Japanese maple may grow from 10 to 30 feet in its life, an oak or an ash from 10 to 90 feet. You can't "stop" trees with topping. If you succeed, you have killed them. 

2. IT'S EXPENSIVE.

A topped tree must be done and re-done every few years-and eventually must be removed when it it dies or the owner gives up. Each time a branch is cut, numerous long, skinny young shoots (called suckers or watersprouts) grow rapidly back to replace it. They must be cut and recut, but they always regrow the next year making the job exponentially more difficult. Much like the many-headed Hydra snake that Hercules battled, people create maintenence monsters in their back yards. A properly pruned tree stays "done" longer, since the work does not stimulate an upsurge of regrowth. Proper pruning actually improves the health and beauty of a tree, costing you less in the long run.

Topping also reduces the appraised value of your tree. A tree, like any landscape amenity, adds to the value of your property. Appraisers subtract hundreds of dollars from the value of a tree when it's been topped (using the International Society of Arboriculture's guidelines for evaluation). You can even sue a tree company for wrongfully topping a tree.

3. IT'S UGLY.

The sight of a topped tree is offensive to many people. The freshly sawed-off tree limbs are reminiscent of arm or leg amputations. And the freshly-sawed look is just the beginning of the eyesore; the worst is yet to come, as the tree regrows a witch's broom of ugly, straight suckers and sprouts.

The natural beauty of the tree's crown is a function of the uninterrupted taper from the trunk to ever finer and more delicate branches, and the regular division of the branches. Arborists consider the topping of some trees a criminal act, since a tree's 90-year achievement of natural beauty can be destroyed in a couple of hours.

Topping destroys the winter silhouette of a tree. The regrowth of suckers or shoots will bloom poorly, if at all. Some trees will reestablish themselves after many years-but by then they will be the same size as before. Many topped trees are considered a total loss.

4. IT'S DANGEROUS.

According to Dr. Alex Shigo, world renowned scientist and author on the subject of arboriculture (trees), topping is the most serious injury you can inflict upon your tree. Severe topping and repeat topping can set up internal columns of rotten wood, the ill effect of which may show up years later in conjunction with a drought or other stress.

Ironically, many people top their trees because they think it will make them safer. Topping creates hazardous trees. In many cities, topping is banned because of the public safety factor and the potential for lawsuits.

Topping creates a hazardous tree in four ways:

IT ROTS. Topping opens the tree up to an invasion of rotting organisms. A tree can defend itself from rot when side branches are removed, but it has a hard time walling off the pervasive rot to which a topping cut subjects it. Rotted individual limbs-or the entire tree-may fail as a result, often years later. 

IT STARVES. Very simply, a tree's leaves manufacture its food. Repeated removal of the tree's leaves-its food source-literally starves the tree. This makes it susceptible to secondary diseases such as root rot---a common cause of failing trees. 

WEAK LIMBS. New limbs made from the sucker or shoot regrowth are weakly attached and break easily in wind or snow storms-even many years later when they are large and heavy. A regrown limb never has the structural integrity of the original. 

INCREASED WIND RESISTANCE. The thick regrowth of suckers or sprouts resulting from topping make the tree top-heavy and more likely to catch the wind. This increases the chance of blow-down in a storm. Selectively-thinned trees allow the wind to pass through the branches. It's called "taking the sail out" of a tree. 

5. MAKES YOU LOOK BAD.
Topping makes you appear to be a cruel or foolish person. Your friends know you better. But the more your neighbors come to understand topping for what it is, the lower you will fall in their esteem. You may top a tree to create a water view, but you should know that you have some friends and neighbors-who probably won't say so because they are being tactful-who see a view of a butchered tree with water in the background.

Still not convinced? Here are even more reasons:

"How to Avoid Being Clipped by a Tree Trimmer", Steve Sandfort and Edwin C. Butcher, Flower and Garden Magazine, April 1988 
"Topping – the Most Expensive Part of Pruning", Alden Kelley, Arbor Age, November 1985 
"Warning – Topping is Hazardous to Your Tree's Health", C.A. Kalser et al, Journal of Arboriculture, February 1986 
"Are you a Candidate for a Lawsuit?", Randall S. Stamen, Arbor Age, July 1994 (do not include ads or significant new case law) 
Letter to PlantAmnesty from Jon Krupnick, Attorney At Law, December 26, 1989, Barcia case 
"The Myth of Tree Topping", Linda Chalker-Scott, Washington State Nursery & Landscape Association B&B Newsletter, Sept. 2003 
"Saving Trees and Views", Sunset Magazine, May 1989 
"Conifer Topping – It May be Common, But is it Right?", John Hushagen, Tree Care Industry Magazine, July 1992


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

The practice of topping is so widespread that many people believe it is the proper way to prune trees. However, topping causes a variety of problems in trees that create future maintenance and growth dilemmas for homeowners.
What is Topping?
Topping is the excessive and arbitrary removal of all parts of the tree above and beyond a certain height with no regard for the structure or growth of the tree. The vertical stem or main leader and the upper primary limbs on trees are cut back to stubs at a uniform height. As opposed to topping, pruning is the selective removal of certain limbs based on the structure, crown form and
growth of the tree.
2
Tree Problems Caused by Topping
¬ The balance between the roots and crown is altered.
Removal of too many branches and leaves reduces
photosynthesis or the food-making potential of the tree
and depletes the treeÕs stored reserves needed for
maintenance and growth. An arbitrary and excessive
removal of crown will (a) cause a like reduction of roots
because there is not enough leaf area or food-making
capacity to sustain the amount of roots present and (b) a
proliferation of sprout growth at the wounded or cut area
in an attempt to gain more leaf area to balance the amount
of roots. Both results are undesirable for the long-term
health and maintenance of the tree.

¬ New sprout growth is weak. The new watersprout
shoots are attached to the surface of the stubs, rather than
anchored from within the former limbs.

¬ Topping can create a hazard. New shoots from the
branch stubs are inherently weak and highly susceptible
to breakage from wind and ice storms or weight from
excessive growth.

¬ Large stubs will not heal. Trees compartmentalize
wounds, some species more poorly than others. Large
branch wounds (those greater than 2 inches in diameter)
are slow to heal, if they heal at all, increasing the chance of
insect attacks and fungal decay entering the wound and
spreading throughout the tree.

¬ Sunscald can occur. Bark tissues suddenly exposed
to full sun may be burned, damaged, killed or develop
disease cankers. Trees with thin bark such as maples,
yellow-poplar, flowering cherries, flowering pears and
crabapples are especially susceptible to sunscald.

¬ Topping disfigures trees. The natural form and
structure of the crown is altered. Unsightly branch stubs,
large pruning scars and undesirable, vigorous branch
growth (watersprouts) interfere or upset the trees natural
beauty and form. Topping drastically shortens the life of a
tree. Topped trees are an eyesore in the landscape and will
continue to be an eyesore as trees slowly decline.

¬ Topping is only temporary. A topped tree will grow
back to its original height, but its natural form is lost.
Weak branches will promote additional maintenance costs. 

Proper Pruning
The light colored limbs represent branches that have been
removed. The crown has been thinned to reduce wind resistance
and improve tree health without leaving stubs or changing the
natural shape.

Myths About Tree Topping
Since tree topping is so deleterious to the health of a
tree, why is it practiced? Trees are often topped to reduce
their size. This can be the result of poor species selection,
improper tree placement or fear that a tall tree or its
branches might be dangerous and fall on people or
structures. This fear is one of the tree myths that lead to
topping. Rarely does a healthy tree suddenly fall over or
break, even in wind storms. Those trees that usually do
are of advanced age, low vigor or unhealthy from mechanical
injuries, insect attacks or fungal decay.

Another myth is that topping reduces the risk of
storm damage. Actually, the opposite effect occurs.
Topping accelerates shoot growth and promotes branches
that are attached weakly to the tree. Those branches are
more prone to breakage during storm events.
Lastly, trees are topped because they interfere with
utility lines, buildings or produce too much shade for
sunny areas. These conflicts may be resolved by proper
species selection, better placement or correct pruning
techniques. If a tree must be pruned every five years, the
tree is too large for the site and should be replaced with a
smaller tree.

Alternatives to Topping
Select the right tree and plant it in the right place. If
the tree is too large for the area where it occurs, remove
the tree and replace it with a species that is a smaller size.
Refer to UT Agricultural Extension Service publication
SP 511, 

Plant the Right Tree in the Right Place, for
guidelines on selecting a tree of the correct size. Avoid
site obstructions both above and below ground, including
utility lines.

Prune the tree properly. Correct pruning procedures
remove branches and thin the crown to reduce wind
resistance and improve tree health without leaving branch
stubs or changing the natural shape and balance of the
tree. Refer to UT Agricultural Extension Service publication
PB 1619, 

Summary
The practice of topping is not recommended. Topping
can lead to decay, storm damage and disfigured trees.
Proper pruning that thins the crown with cuts made at
branch collars is the best practice for the long-term health
of trees. Topping is considered an unacceptable practice
by professional organizations such as the International
Society of Arboriculture (ISA) and the National Arborist
Association (NAA).

Unfortunately, many tree services still top trees and
homeowners allow them to continue. Investigate a tree
service before hiring them. If a company advocates tree
topping, use a different tree service. Look for membership
in professional organizations (ISA or NAA). Membership
does not guarantee quality, but does indicate a commitment
to the profession.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Why Topping Hurts Trees

Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet, despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. This brochure explains why topping is not an acceptable pruning technique and offers better alternatives.

What is Topping?


Topping is the indiscriminate cutting of tree branches to stubs or lateral branches that are not large enough to assume the terminal role. Other names for topping include “heading,” “tipping,” “hat-racking,” and “rounding over.” 

The most common reason given for topping is to reduce the size of a tree. Home owners often feel that their trees have become too large for their property. People fear that tall trees may pose a hazard. Topping, however, is not a viable method of height reduction and certainly does not reduce the hazard. In fact, topping will make a tree more hazardous in the long term. 

Topping Stresses Trees 

Topping often removes 50 to 100 percent of the leaf-bearing crown of a tree. Because leaves are the food factories of a tree, removing them can temporarily starve a tree. The severity of the pruning triggers a sort of survival mechanism. The tree activates latent buds, forcing the rapid growth of multiple shoots below each cut. The tree needs to put out a new crop of leaves as soon as possible. If a tree does not have the stored energy reserves to do so, it will be seriously weakened and may die. 

A stressed tree is more vulnerable to insect and disease infestations. Large, open pruning wounds expose the sapwood and heartwood to attacks. The tree may lack sufficient energy to chemically defend the wounds against invasion, and some insects are actually attracted to the chemical signals trees release. 

Topping Causes Decay 

The preferred location to make a pruning cut is just beyond the branch collar at the branch’s point of attachment. The tree is biologically equipped to close such a wound, provided the tree is healthy enough and the wound is not too large. Cuts made along a limb between lateral branches create stubs with wounds that the tree may not be able to close. The exposed wood tissues begin to decay. Normally, a tree will “wall off,” or compartmentalize, the decaying tissues, but few trees can defend the multiple severe wounds caused by topping. The decay organisms are given a free path to move down through the branches. 

Topping Can Lead to Sunburn 

Branches within a tree’s crown produce thousands of leaves to absorb sunlight. When the leaves are removed, the remaining branches and trunk are suddenly exposed to high levels of light and heat. The result may be sunburn of the tissues beneath the bark, which can lead to cankers, bark splitting, and death of some branches. 

Topping Creates Hazards 

The survival mechanism that causes a tree to produce multiple shoots below each topping cut comes at great expense to the tree. These shoots develop from buds near the surface of the old branches. Unlike normal branches that develop in a socket of overlapping wood tissues, these new shoots are anchored only in the outermost layers of the parent branches. 

The new shoots grow quickly, as much as 20 feet in one year, in some species. Unfortunately, the shoots are prone to breaking, especially during windy conditions. The irony is that while the goal was to reduce the tree’s height to make it safer, it has been made more hazardous than before. 

Topping Makes Trees Ugly 

The natural branching structure of a tree is a biological wonder. Trees form a variety of shapes and growth habits, all with the same goal of presenting their leaves to the sun. Topping removes the ends of the branches, often leaving ugly stubs. Topping destroys the natural form of a tree. 

Without leaves (up to 6 months of the year in temperate climates), a topped tree appears disfigured and mutilated. With leaves, it is a dense ball of foliage, lacking its simple grace. A tree that has been topped can never fully regain its natural form. 

Topping Is Expensive 

The cost of topping a tree is not limited to what the perpetrator is paid. If the tree survives, it will require pruning again within a few years. It will either need to be reduced again or storm damage will have to be cleaned up. If the tree dies, it will have to be removed. 

Topping is a high-maintenance pruning practice, with some hidden costs. One is the reduction in property value. Healthy, well-maintained trees can add 10 to 20 percent to the value of a property. Disfigured, topped trees are considered an impending expense. 

Another possible cost of topped trees is potential liability. Topped trees are prone to breaking and can be hazardous. Because topping is considered an unacceptable pruning practice, any damage caused by branch failure of a topped tree may lead to a finding of negligence in a court of law. 

Alternatives to Topping 

Sometimes a tree must be reduced in height or spread. Providing clearance for utility lines is an example. There are recommended techniques for doing so. If practical, branches should be removed back to their point of origin. If a branch must be shortened, it should be cut back to a lateral that is large enough to assume the terminal role. A rule of thumb is to cut back to a lateral that is at least one-third the diameter of the limb being removed. 

This method of branch reduction helps to preserve the natural form of the tree. However, if large cuts are involved, the tree may not be able to close over and compartmentalize the wounds. Sometimes the best solution is to remove the tree and replace it with a species that is more appropriate for the site. 

Hiring an Arborist 

Pruning large trees can be dangerous. If pruning involves working above the ground or using power equipment, it is best to hire a professional arborist. An arborist can determine the type of pruning that is necessary to improve the health, appearance, and safety of your trees. A professional arborist can provide the services of a trained crew, with all of the required safety equipment and liability insurance. 

When selecting an arborist, 

check for membership in professional organizations such as the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), the Tree Care Industry Association (TCIA), or the American Society of Consulting Arborists (ASCA). Such membership demonstrates a willingness on the part of the arborist to stay up to date on the latest techniques and information. Check for ISA arborist certification. Certified Arborists are experienced professionals who have passed an extensive examination covering all aspects of tree care. 
ask for proof of insurance. Ask for a list of references, and don’t hesitate to check them. Avoid using the services of any tree company that
advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice. Uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed.

This brochure is one in a series published by the International Society of Arboriculture as part of its Consumer Information Program. You may have additional interest in the following titles currently in the series: 



E-mail inquiries: [email protected]


(c) 1998, 2004 International Society of Arboriculture.
UPDATED JULY 2005

Developed by the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), a non-profit organization supporting tree care research around the world and is dedicated to the care and preservation of shade and ornamental trees. For further information, contact:
ISA, P.O. Box 3129, Champaign, IL 61826-3129, USA.
E-mail inquires: [email protected]

© 2007 International Society of Arboriculture.
UPDATED SEPTEMBER 2005


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Dr. Kim D. Coder, associate professor, University of Georgia, (Athens, Ga.)


Do you know what tree topping is? If not, are you the problem? Would you allow an old maintenance practice that decreases tree asset values, destroys future value appreciation and increases liability risks? Would you allow a structurally and biologically abusive practice to damage trees for life?

Are you tree-illiterate? Would you clearly demonstrate to other landscape managers-and the public alike-that you have failed to comply with national tree-pruning standards (ANSI-A300) and with professional tree-pruning guidelines (International Society of Arboriculture pruning guidelines)?

Can you afford to show people how professionally ignorant and antiquated you and your landscape-management program are? Can you afford to pay tripled, quadrupled or more maintenance costs to recover from reactions and injuries you have initiated-year after year?

Tree topping is a plague on the landscape that damages trees, tree owners and landscape professionals (both literally and figuratively). For decades, many have fought to educate the uninformed, to protect tree resources and to chastise the guilty. And yet our landscapes abound with permanently, seriously injured trees standing as tall banners to "management-by-myth" ways.

How many generations must endure these aesthetic abominations, safety risks and maintenance nightmares before we actually change how we do our jobs-both as professional practitioners and as advocates for modern tree care? If you think this is about you, maybe it is!

Bert L. Latran Jr., owner, Bert's Prettywork Trimming Services, (Oberlin, Ohio)

Yes, there are benefits to tree topping if done by a skilled professional. In most cases that I have experienced, customers would rather not lose a living tree if it has a problem that you can remedy. Simply stated, most trees grow too slowly for the average homeowner to be able to enjoy the replacement tree.

The most frequent reason for topping a tree is to reduce the potential for storm damage. The overall height of the tree and length of the limbs equate to leverage that (mixed with flaws in the tree that are frequently unnoticed) strong winds can bend with disastrous result. Skillful topping (I employ the drop-crotch method in most instances) removes most of the potential for such an occurrence.

Another common reason for topping a tree is to reduce interference with something else (for example, power lines or a larger tree) without losing the tree. Surprisingly, it is this kind of trimming (especially under power lines) that can require the most skill on the part of arborists. It can be difficult to accomplish the objective without detracting too much from the natural aesthetics of the tree.

A third category of topping (although rare) has to do with changing the center of gravity of a tree to correct a leaning condition. Basically, you are trying to reduce the overall height of the tree (via leverage and selectively removing limbs from the downhill side of the tree) to coax the tree to achieve nearly perpendicular status again, thereby helping to assure its longevity and the safety of residents and the property underneath.

Taking off a lot of the tree, which it needs to maintain its health, opens the tree up to a lot of wounds and makes it susceptible to disease. You're setting yourself up for failure, and you're opening up the tree to death. Plus, aesthetically, it looks bad. People [perform tree topping], and then they wonder why so many trees die.-Leah S. Burow, owner, Blackhawk Lawn Care Co. (Fort Atkinson, Wis.)

I call this technique arbor-icide. Tree topping is the brutalization of a tree. There are no benefits to it. But, if a tree is damaged, you may have to top it if you want to save it. There are occasions when it has to be done, but that's only to repair damage. It doesn't make it safer, although many people cite that as a reason for performing it. Tree topping actually makes the tree more dangerous.-Lew Bloch, consulting arborist/landscape architect (Potomac, Md.)

I can't think of any benefits. If you have to top trees to accommodate power lines, then I guess we have to. But the artistic side of me says there's got to be a better way. The only benefit may be to the tree companies that are receiving higher revenues from performing this practice. But when I drive around in the winter and see topped trees, it just makes me feel sick.-Martin J. Grunder Jr., founder and president, Grunder Landscaping Co. (Miamisburg, Ohio)

My working definition of pruning is, "The removal of plant parts to benefit the remaining parts." The practice of topping just does not fulfill this goal. Topping actually promotes decay or death of remaining branch stubs and production of weakly attached water sprouts. Most importantly, topping destroys the individual tree's natural shape and beauty.-Larry Stouse, president, Horticulture Solutions, Consulting & Seminars (Shawnee, Kan.)


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Anti Tree-Topping Sites 

http://www.steamboats.com/hobbies/treetoppinglinks.html

See a tree topping incident in progress - photos and description posted at Steamboats.com

See another before-and-after case

Instructions for proper pruning - Steamboats.com

"No Topping" Sign Developed The Father of Arboriculture, John Davey, called them "Tree Fools", those who top their trees, and those who allow their trees to be topped . . . A company has taken steps to permanently educate communities with the message "Tree Topping Hurts". A sign that when placed in a community gives a daily reminder that tree topping is not a welcomed or desirable practice. 

Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known - City of Walnut Creek 

Proper Tree Pruning Does Not Include Topping Your Trees, by Colorado State University Cooperative Extension, Denver County

Selecting a tree trimmer (arborist) by Colorado State University Cooperative

Don't Destroy Your Large Trees by Topping More info. from Colorad State University Cooperative Extension

Why Topping Hurts Trees Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. . . .

Tree Topping Hurts Info. from the Tree Doctor

Topping is the worst thing you can do to your trees more info. from the Tree Doctor

Topping a tree is NOT recommended - from Horticulture Solutions Series, University of Illinois 

What's bad about tree topping Illinois Department of Natural Resources 

Two Myths About Tree Topping Illinois Department of Natural Resources

Please don't top your trees . . . from the International Society of Arboriculture, Pacific Northwest Chapter 

Download a PDF file: Tree Topping Hurts Trees 

Tree topping is bad for your trees - Gardening Information from Oregon State University Extension 

The Anti Tree-Topping Page Don't let this happen to your trees! 

The National Arbor Day Foundation 

ArborCare Library Eight good reasons why not to "top" trees 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Should it be illegal?

A law against tree topping 

City of Redding Comprehensive Tree Plan calls tree topping inappropriate 

Homeowners, tree toppers sued The city settled a civil lawsuit Tuesday for $170,000 against five homeowners and three tree-trimmers who allegedly hacked off the tops of 59 trees at La Costa Canyon Park . . . The city sought a minimum of $134,495 in damages, based on an estimate by a city arborist, and city officials also wanted to include punitive civil measures. 

Guidelines for Developing and Evaluating Tree Ordinances 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Professor's Message, by Jeff Iles, Iowa State University, published in City Trees, The Journal of The Society of Municipal Arborists 

Tree topping hurts - info. from Cortese Tree Specialists, Knoxville, Tennessee 

Tree topping - info. from John A. Keslick Jr., Tree Biologist, Tree Anatomist & Professional Modern Arborist 

Tree Topping Hurts Trees Forestry-Sales.Com, Inc., Member of Ohio Forestry Association 

Tree Tooping, or How to Create a Disaster, by Paul Hetzler, Community Forestry Program, Cooperative Extension of St. Lawrence County 

Urban Forest Tree Foundation of Kern: . . . a bizarre and disturbing practice known as tree topping is devaluing Bakersfield trees and neighborhoods at an alarming rate. 

Experts Agree Don't Top Your Tree 

No Tree Topping Download this PDF file from Spokane Universtiy 

Tree Topping a few words from Cuivre River Electric Cooperative, Troy, Missouri 

NeighborWoods training spotlights do's and don'ts of tree care, Olympia, Washington 

The Dark Side of Urban Tree Topping, by John Tasan and Zakariya Abdullah, Faculty of Forestry, Universiti Putra Malaysia 

Don't Top Trees - City of Greensboro, Urban Forestry Program 

California Forest Stewardship Program California State Government tips on proper pruning

TreeLink.org 

ufei.org Urban Forest Ecosystems Institute - urban wood, information and links to everything trees. 

Tree Doctors if you live in the Phoenix area, here are some good tree trimmers who respect the trees and trim correctly


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Tell me when...say "uncle" and I'll stop opcorn:


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Don't Top Trees!

Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. This brochure explains why topping is not an acceptable pruning technique and offers some better alternatives.

What Is Topping? 
Topping is the indiscriminate cutting back of tree branches to stubs or lateral branches that are not large enough to assume the terminal role. Other names for topping include "heading", "tipping", "hat-racking", and "rounding over".

The most common reason given for topping is to reduce the size of a tree. Often homeowners feel that their trees have become too large for their property. People fear that tall trees may pose a hazard. Topping, however, is not a viable method of height reduction, and certainly does not reduce the hazard. In fact, topping will make a tree more hazardous in the long term.

Topping Stresses Trees 
Topping often removes 50-100% of the leaf-bearing crown of a tree. Since the leaves are the "food factories" of a tree, this can temporarily "starve" a tree. The severity of the pruning triggers a sort of survival mechanism. The tree activates latent buds, forcing the rapid growth of multiple shoots below each cut. The tree needs to put out a new crop of leaves as soon as possible. If a tree does not have the stored energy reserves to do this, it will be seriously weakened and may die. A stressed tree is more vulnerable to insect and disease infestations. Large, open pruning wounds expose the sapwood and heartwood to attack. The tree may lack sufficient energy to chemically "defend" the wounds against invasion. Some insects are actually attracted to stressed trees by chemical signals.

Topping Causes Decay 
The preferred location to make a pruning cut is just beyond the branch collar at the branch's point of attachment. The tree is biologically equipped to close such a wound provided the tree is healthy enough and the wound is not too large. Cuts made along a limb, between lateral branches, create stubs with wounds that the tree may not be able to close. The exposed wood tissues begin to decay. Normally a tree will "wall off" or compartmentalize the decaying tissues. But few trees can defend the multiple severe wounds caused by topping. The decay organisms are given a free path to move down through the branches.

Topping Creates Hazards 
The survival mechanism that causes a tree to produce multiple shoots below each topping cut comes at great expense to the tree. These shoots develop from buds near the surface of the old branches. Unlike normal branches that develop in a "socket" of overlapping wood tissues, these new shoots are only anchored in the outermost layers of the parent branches. The new shoots grow very quickly, as much as 20 feet in one year, in some species. Unfortunately, the shoots are very prone to breaking, especially during windy conditions. The irony is that while the goal was to reduce the tree's height to make it safer, it has been made more hazardous than before.

Topping Makes Trees Ugly 
The natural branching structure of a tree is a biological wonder. Trees form a variety of shapes and growth habits, all with the same goal of presenting their leaves to the sun. Topping removes the ends of the branches, often leaving ugly stubs. Topping destroys the natural form of a tree. Without the leaves (up to six months of the year in temperate climates) a topped tree appears disfigured and mutilated. With the leaves, it is a dense ball of foliage, lacking its simple grace. A tree that has been topped can never fully regain its natural form.


Topping Is Expensive 
The cost of topping a tree is not limited to what the perpetrator is paid. If the tree survives, it will require pruning again within a few years. It will either need to be reduced again, or storm damage will have to be cleaned up. If the tree dies it will have to be removed. Topping is a high maintenance pruning practice. There are some hidden costs of topping. One is the reduction in property value. Healthy, well maintained trees can add 10-20% to the value of a property. Disfigured, topped trees are considered an impending expense. Another potential cost of topped trees is the potential liability. Topped trees are prone to breaking and can be hazardous. Since topping is considered to be an unacceptable pruning practice, any damage caused by branch failure of a topped tree may lead to a finding of negligence in a court of law.


Alternatives To Topping 
There are times when a tree must be reduced in height or spread. Providing clearance for utility lines is an example. There are recommended techniques for doing this. If practical, branches should be removed back to their point of origin. If a branch must be shortened, it should be cut back to a lateral that is large enough to assume the terminal role. A rule of thumb for this is to cut back to a lateral that is at least 1/3 the diameter of the limb being removed. This method of branch reduction helps to preserve the natural form of the tree. However, if large cuts are involved, the tree may not be able to close over and compartmentalize the wounds. Sometimes the best solution is to remove the tree and replace it with a species that is more appropriate for the site.


Hiring An Arborist 
Pruning large trees can be dangerous. If pruning involves working above the ground, or using power equipment, it is best to hire a professional arborist. An arborist can determine what type of pruning is necessary to improve the health, appearance and safety of your trees. A professional arborist can provide the services of a trained crew, with all of the required safety equipment and liability insurance.

There are a variety of things to consider when selecting an arborist: 

Membership in professional organizations such the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), the National Arborist Association (NAA) or the American Society of Consulting Arborists (ASCA) 
Certification through the ISA Certified Arborist program 
Proof of insurance 
A list of references (Don't hesitate to check) 
Avoid using the services of any tree company that: 
Advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice. 
Uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Tree topping

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tree topping is the practice of removing large branches and/or trunks from the top of a tree's canopy. Topping is often harmful for the tree. Large pruning wounds often fail to heal and become entry points for disease and pests, undermining the long term health of the tree. Aesthetic appeal is compromised as the natural shape of the tree is lost. Trunks grow at the topping location and as these weakly attached trunks increase in size, they often fall during windstorms.

Previously topped trees are often dangerous and should be inspected by a qualified tree surgeon who can recommend possible solutions: removal, cabling/bracing, or ongoing inspection. Better alternatives to tree topping, based on scientific research, are replacing the practice of tree topping.[1] Spiral thinning (canopy thinning) decreases wind resistance and allows the wind to pass through the trees, decreasing the likelihood that the tree will fall due to wind-throw. It also allows more light penetration and air circulation, both important for the tree’s health.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)

opcorn:


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)




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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

TREE TOPPING, OR, HOW TO CREATE A DISASTER 
Paul Hetzler, Community Forestry Program, Cooperative Extension of St. Lawrence County 



Tree topping is one subject I can really get worked up about. Topping is unprofessional, unsightly, outrageous, immoral, unethical, and possibly contributes to rainy weekends, bad breath, parking tickets, baldness and tooth decay. It is unthinkable, unbelievable, wrong, horrible, awful, bad, yucko, blecch! Any questions? Oh, exactly what is topping? Just a minute. Mmph- there, that’s better. Had to wipe the foam off my mouth. 


OK, tree topping is the cutting back of large portions of a tree’s canopy to stubs or inappropriately small branches. Variably known as heading, dehorning, hat racking and tipping, it has not been an accepted practice for at least 25 years. It is the most harmful practice visited on living trees by human beings. (All right, besides cutting the whole thing down). Topping is believed to have started as a method of clearing utility lines. This practice was perceived by some as an appropriate way to reduce a tree’s height. (Possibly this was encouraged by line clearing employees who went on to become "tree experts" willing to do topping.) Thus topping jumped from industrial clearing to residential "care". 


Topping shortens a tree temporarily, but does not alter those pesky DNA strands which just insist the tree grow to its normal height. So, the tree re- grows as programmed, but for various reasons the new top or branch that develops is much weaker, and is more weakly attached to the parent wood than the original part was. Then the tree that’s left standing (the "remnant tree") begins to decay from the topping cut down. A column of decay develops in the center of the tree which will eventually become as wide as the cut was. Imagine slicing a building in half, destabilizing the bottom part, then rebuilding the top with vastly inferior materials. Recipe for disaster? You bet! As the cheap imitation (re- grown) parts get bigger, the point at which they are attached becomes increasingly decayed. It may take as many as forty or fifty years, or as few as five or ten, but as the bumper sticker says, "failure happens". Once the disastrous long term effects (including long term liability) of topping became widely known, it was abandoned by tree care professionals. 


Not only does topping create weak new growth, it also severely weakens the remnant tree. The tree has to take "money out of the bank" (starch out of storage) to re- grow at a time when much of its stored starches have been lost by topping. Trees normally spend their energy reserves on things like making defensive chemicals to protect themselves from diseases and pests. When they are too energy deficient to do this, the result is a tree which is more vulnerable to decay, disease, and insects. 


The difference between looking at a naturally formed tree and a topped tree is like the difference between looking at classic architecture and a pile of construction rubble. Trees generally add to property value, up to about twenty percent. But a tree that is disfigured from topping can actually decrease property value, and possibly the value of neighboring properties as well. 


If a short tree is desired, a short species must be planted. However, there is an acceptable practice called crown reduction pruning which can reduce the height of most trees in a way that does not harm them. Crown reduction takes a lot more skill than topping, and can reduce a tree’s height by a maximum of about twenty five percent. Of course, the tree will eventually grow back to original height, but it will not be the hulking wretch that topping would produce. Crown reduction works best on deciduous trees. 


To address concerns about a tall tree blowing over, there is a practice which can lessen that risk. Crown thinning is the selective pruning of branches throughout the canopy to reduce wind resistance. Again, this takes more skill and judgement than topping. A tree company that tops trees probably lacks the expertise to perform the correct procedures, and should be avoided. In fact, the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), a research and education association of tree care professionals, advises the public that a tree company which advertises topping should NOT be hired, for any work, period. 


Tree topping is probably the best way to turn a normally docile, peace- loving tree into a snarling killer, or at the very least a snarling unsightly nuisance and potential legal liability. Tree topping is, however, recommended for those who enjoy forty- foot hat racks, and liability lawsuits. 


Now are there any questions?


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)

Just warming up my saw for tommorow and having a cold one.  What do you think, should I heavily reduce the crown, or remove it, nice maple?


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

A Guide to Successful Pruning: Stop Topping Trees! 
Authors: Susan C. French, Extension Technician and Bonnie Lee Appleton, Extension Horticulturist, Virginia Tech 

Publication Number 430-458, posted April 1999 

What is "topping"? 
Topping occurs when the vertical stem (leader) and upper primary limbs (scaffold branches) on mature trees are cut back to stubs at uniform height. Topping is also referred to as heading, stubbing, or dehorning. 

How does topping damage trees? 
1) Topping reduces food-making capacity. Trees require a large leaf surface area to provide food for maintenance and growth. Topping cuts off a major portion of the tree's foodmaking potential and depletes the tree's stored reserves. 

2) Topping stimulates undesirable "water sprout" growth. While removing most of the buds that would form a normal branch system, topping often stimulates the regrowth of dense, unattractive, upright branches (water sprouts) just below the pruning cut. Water sprout regrowth is vigorous. A topped tree will rapidly return to its original height, but will lack its original form. 

3) Topping leaves large wounds. The branch wounds left from topping are slow to close, therefore more vulnerable to insect attacks and fungal decay. An invasion by either pest can spread into the trunk, killing the tree. 

4) Topping creates a hazard. Weakened stubs are more prone to wind and storm breakage because they generally begin to die back or decay. 

S) Topping injures bark. Increased sun exposure on trunk and branches can lead to severe bark damage. 

6) Topping disfigures trees. Ugly branch stubs, conspicuous pruning cuts, and a broom-like branch growth replace natural beauty and form. Topping reduces the real estate value of trees by 20 - 100 percent. A correctly trimmed tree increases in value at each pruning. 

Why are trees topped? 
Some homeowners and unprofessional tree pruners practice topping whenever trees reach an undesirable height. They mistakenly believe that topping will reduce the storm hazard of falling branches, when in fact, topping has the opposite effect. People also top trees when they interfere with utility wires, buildings, solar collectors, or sunny garden areas. 

Selection of trees that only reach desired maximum heights eliminates severe pruning later. If you must prune a tree heavily every five to seven years, the tree is too large for the site. Replace it with a smaller species. The National Arborist Association considers topping an unacceptable practice and advises against it. Unfortunately, even some legitimate tree service companies indiscriminately top trees. Before selecting a tree service, find out which companies advocate topping and avoid patronizing them. 

What are the alternatives? 
In order to avoid topping, newly planted trees should be properly pruned to develop a good branch structure as they grow. When a mature tree's height must be reduced, an alternative to topping is drop-crotching. 

Drop-crotching is a type of thinning cut that reduces a tree's size while preserving its natural shape. To drop-crotch, select and cut higher branches back to laterals at least one-third the diameter of the limbs being removed. Cut outside the branch collar at a 45 to 60 degree angle to the branch bark ridge. Leave the branch collar intact to help prevent decay from entering the trunk. This type of thinning cut will stimulate growth throughout the tree and discourage water sprout development. 


Drop crotching 

Lateral limbs are pruned where they join large diameter side branches. 

The center leader is cut back to a large diameter secondary branch so that a modified leader remains. 

This does not change the direction of growth. It encourages stimulation of the apical growth point. 

Whenever removing limbs greater than 1 inch in diameter, use the three-cut method to avoid tearing bark. First, about 12 inches from the trunk, cut halfway through the limb from the underside. Second, about 1 inch past the first cut, cut through the limb from the top side. The limb's weight will cause it to break between the two cuts. Make the third cut outside the branch collar, as described earlier. Use a handsaw to provide greater control. 

Don't coat pruning cuts with tree paint or wound dressing, except for control of certain disease-carrying insects. These materials won't prevent decay or promote wound closure. 

Can topping be corrected? 
A professional arborist can improve the condition of a tree, even after it's been severely topped and shows heavy water sprout regrowth. As the water sprouts begin to gain caliper, they can be selectively "thinned out" using properly placed branch collar cuts. New growth can be directed outward to expand and round out the crown. This process will need repeating for a few years. The scars, both physical and visual, will never completely disappear. 

A wiser alternative to topping is careful selection and training of your young trees. Avoid topping altogether. Allow your trees to realize their full potential for health and beauty in the landscape.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)

You sure do like hearing yourself speak.opcorn:


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Just warming up my saw for tommorow and having a cold one.  What do you think, should I heavily reduce the crown, or remove it, nice maple?



Have at it. Everyone including yourself nows knows clearly that you support and practice unprofessional tree care.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Tree Topping 

by Justine Gartner
photography by Cliff White

Experts agree: It's never a good idea to "top" a tree.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People don't buy snake oil anymore, and it's no longer popular to bleed patients with leeches, so why do Missourians continue to pay good money to butcher their trees?

Look around your neighborhood, and you'll probably see many examples of a hideous tree trimming practice called "topping," the severe cutting of tree limbs, usually from the top down. This complete removal or cutting back of large branches in mature trees leaves large, open wounds which subject the tree to disease and decay. Topping causes immediate injury to the tree and ultimately results in the tree's early death.

Other names for this malpractice include stubbing, heading, heading-back, stubbing-off, tipping, hatracking, topping-off, dehorning, lopping or roundover. Whatever it's called, topping is the worst thing to do to a tree.

Topping is still widely practiced throughout Missouri. People top trees for many reasons, all of them based on falsehoods and misconceptions. In fact, topping permanently destroys a tree's natural beauty and exposes it to disease and decay.

"Ultimately, a topped tree will cost more to maintain than a properly pruned tree," said Gene Brunk, Missouri Community Forestry Council Vice-Chair and Anti Tree Topping Public Service Campaign Chair.

Don't Top Your Tree

To advocate proper tree management practices, the Missouri Community Forestry Council, in partnership with Forest ReLeaf of Missouri, launched a public service campaign titled, "Experts Agree Don't Top Your Tree." The campaign is designed to educate people about the misconceptions that surround the common practice of tree topping and to offer alternative solutions to tree problems.

The Missouri Community Forestry Council (MCFC) is a grassroots organization composed of individuals interested in community forestry issues in their hometowns. MCFC is composed of nine active regional councils and a statewide council that assists owners' associations in the management of urban and community forests.

"The Missouri Community Forestry Council's purpose in sponsoring this campaign is to educate the public on proper tree care and to dispel many of the misconceptions regarding tree care," said MCFC Chair Bill Reininger. "As the only statewide grassroots community forestry organization in Missouri, MCFC has the desire and technical knowledge to help improve Missouri's urban tree resources. Tree topping is a major problem that needs addressing. We hope our efforts in the long run will help to change people's perceptions and behavior regarding tree care."

Forest ReLeaf of Missouri administers the campaign, providing expertise in media relations, fundraising, grants coordination and overall campaign strategies. Forest ReLeaf maintains the toll-free 877/4-NOTOP telephone hotline. Homeowners can call this number for tree pruning information. The campaign has been so successful that 26 states have inquired about it.

"The campaign has exceeded all expectations, given its impact both in Missouri and throughout much of the United States," said Nancy von Brecht, Forest ReLeaf executive director .

Tree Topping Myths 
Myth: Topping a tree will reduce storm damage and make the tree easier to maintain.

Topped trees can regain their original height in as little as two years. The fast growing, extremely long and loosely attached shoots caused by topping will be more susceptible to breakage and storm damage. Ultimately, a topped tree requires more attention in the future than a properly pruned tree.

Myth: Topping invigorates a tree.

Topping immediately injures a tree and starts it on a downward spiral. Topping wounds expose the tree to decay and invasion from insects and disease. Also, the loss of foliage starves the tree, which weakens the roots, reducing the tree's structural strength. While a tree may survive topping, its life will be significantly reduced.

Myth: Topped trees will add value to your property.

Topped trees are ugly and may reduce your property values. Also a topped tree can become hazardous and cause property damage, making it a liability.

Myth: Topping is the best way to keep a tree from getting too big.

A tree's genetics and environment determine how tall it will grow. Topping just shortens the life of the tree and creates long term maintenance problems.

Topping vs. Tree Pruning

A topped tree is easy to spot. Its natural shape has been destroyed, while a properly pruned tree looks well-shaped, symmetrical and healthy. In fact, a tree that is pruned correctly will show no evidence of alteration. With proper pruning, an arborist will spend time carefully selecting and removing branches.

Proper pruning is an important part of caring for and protecting the health of your trees. In fact, many tree care professionals recommend that homeowners start early and continue proper pruning throughout the life a tree.

The Right Approach

A tree is a valuable asset. As long-term investments, trees require careful decisions and the occasional advice of a professional. If you are unable to do the work yourself, you may want to consider hiring a professional. Make sure you find a competent, insured and certified tree care professional.

"In Missouri, there are trained tree care professionals, and there are tree cutters," said Robert L. Krepps, Forestry Division Administrator with the Missouri Department of Conservation. "Tree cutters tend to be untrained, uninsured, inexperienced and minimally equipped. Many don't stay in business long,"

"Missouri does not have a regulatory group responsible for tree care standards or the quality of work performed by tree care providers," he added. "Basically, that means it is not against the law for a firm to advertise that it is a tree specialist, or that an individual is an arborist, even if they have no training in tree care."

There are many tree service companies in Missouri. Some have highly trained and competent employees, but others have employees who lack basic tree identification and tree care knowledge. Do your homework and select a company with skilled, trained employees.

Ask if the company you are considering is a member of an arborist association. The St. Louis Arborist Association expects its members to abide by the accepted national pruning standards, which do not advocate tree topping.

"We feel that the national standard is a good baseline to educate customers as well as professionals in the industry," said David Hill, president of the St. Louis Arborist Association. "It is one way we have to eliminate unprofessional practices like tree topping and climbing with spurs from the industry."

Topping vs. Pruning 

Topping....

Branches are shortened, leaving stubbed-off branch ends. 
Sprouting occurs near the ends of cut branches. Branches quickly grow back, only thicker. 
Regrowth is weakly attached and breaks easily in storms. 
Can cause dead branch stubs. Maximizes chances for future decay inside branches and trunk. 
Tree quickly regains original size, but with weak branches. 
Especially destructive if applied to entire tree. 
Produces whole population of weak, unhealthy trees over time. 
Recommended Pruning

Pruning....

Whole branches growing in undesirable directions are removed. 
Only offending branches are removed. 
Future storm damage is minimized. 
Tree can grow over pruning wounds. Chances for decay are minimized. 
Tends to lengthen time needed between prunings. 
Works with natural growth habit of tree. 
Encourages trees to grow safe and sound. 

*When seeking a tree service, check the company's topping policy. If they top, don't let them near your trees.*

Selecting professional tree care in Missouri is a worthwhile investment of time and money. Inappropriate tree care could lead to the slow death of a favored tree which, with proper care, could live to be more than 100 years old.

Find out if the individual or company carries professional certification, particularly through the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA). ISA certifies individuals who meet a minimum experience requirement and pass an industry-based exam. A list of ISA Certified arborists in your area can be found on the Internet at <www2. champaign.isa-arbor.com/>.


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## treeseer (Oct 2, 2008)

Tim, some of those links that talked about topping being okay on damaged trees are very old school, and wrong. :welcome: 

There are a lot of ways to prune trees without damaging them needlessly, like the attached.


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## teamtree (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok...Most trees guys know that topping is bad. I have read all the literature and know how to prune a tree.

You need to take your arguements to the customer who requests to have their trees topped. Yes their are bad tree guys out there that do not know any better and just do what the guys before them did. In my opinion, it does not pay to educate non-paying customers. 

However, if your market (say the midwest) requests this service and believe me most of the calls for trimming are actually for "topping". They could care less what I say or even what a certified arborist says about it. I had a CA work for me and several customers told me to leave him at the shop when I come out to "top" their trees. 

Again, don't make out like it is the end of the world. How many ads do you see on TV to stop this activity. When is the TCIA and ISA going to put some money into national advertising?

If you want to educate people it has to be a real attempt to educate the masses. 

How many cigarettes are sold everyday? How many ads to quit smoking are run each day? Would it help?

So you guys preach all you want about the bad guys topping trees but if people are willing to pay for the service, it will continue.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Tim, some of those links that talked about topping being okay on damaged trees are very old school, and wrong. :welcome:
> 
> There are a lot of ways to prune trees without damaging them needlessly, like the attached.



Treeseer- Yes, I know. Some of those articles are very narrow in their scope. I realize there is a much bigger picture out there, and a lot of different scenarios and applications when it comes to pruning. I have not had the time to go into all the different types and applications of tree pruning. Another book could be written on the subject.

These articles basically dealt with the indiscriminate “topping” of mature healthy trees. This is an old subject that we should not even be having. The issue of “topping” is an old issue and the professional tree care providers have come to an understanding of correct pruning in the many various situations they encounter.

The tree + physiology + desired goals- can work in harmony to meet the client’s desires.

Unfortunatly, closedmindedness still prevails in some areas. Let's do what we can to bring light into the world.


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## teamtree (Oct 2, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Tree Topping
> 
> *When seeking a tree service, check the company's topping policy. If they top, don't let them near your trees.*



Ok...now this is funny. I have been asked to top hundreds of trees but only 1 person has ever asked me if I don't top trees. 

Again, the market rules. I don't like it as well. I think it is wrong. I wish everyone who owned a tree knew and cared about their trees in a manner that would prevent topping. However, as long as someone, even a homeowner goes out there and tops his tree, someone will see it and think it is the right thing to do. I equate this problem to trying to stop an avalanche. I am so sick of going out and giving the same story to every customer about why topping hurts while I am looking at trees that have been topped regularly for the last 30 years. I can tell you in a county of 30,000 people and hundreds of churches, municipal buildings and commercial businesses. I would bet that of say out of a 10,000 properties I would bet that at least 50% and probably more of those properties have had their trees topped. That is at least 20,000 trees in one county in one state that has there trees topped. This practice was going on for years before I even thought about tree service as a living. 

I get into the tree biz trying to do what is right only to find out very few people care about what is right. I am trying to make a difference in my community. But I have to stay in business to make a difference.

Don't tell me the facts....I know the numbers. And the government does not care as the local county government had over 40 trees topped on public grounds. 

So don't tell me what the #### to do and how to do it. I don't care what you CA and BCMA say....you all can sit on your high perches and preach all you want. 

Here is an idea....why don't you educate the market on what they want. 

Here is another statistic, there are no CA in the southern part of the state that operates a legitimate business and educates the market. They stick with their few customers and say #### the rest.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)

Yup....opcorn:


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## teamtree (Oct 2, 2008)

The tree + physiology + desired goals- can work in harmony to meet the client’s desires.



Okay...here is one....my tree is too tall...can you cut it in half?

There is no legitimate pruning for this desired goal of customer. 

Okay...tell them about thinning and crown reduction.

That sounds good but how tall will my tree be when you are done...about half the size now?

Been there done that. 

Okay say you get them to agree on the price and you tell them that it will be $300 to crown clean including a crown reduction on their silver maple. OK fine...we are getting other estimates.

Ring ring...sir...we talked to someone else and they said they can do it for $150....OKay...good luck with that.

I just wasted 45 minutes of my time and get nothing to show for it. Most people do not care.

I try to find people who care but I have to pay bills and if the customer is requesting a service I have to consider offering that service or I will be out of business...so then where would we be.....

You would have one less decent hard working tree service trying to change the industry and market forces. I can go to bed at night knowing that I try my best to do the right thing but at the end of the day....the customer is making the decision to top is tree...I am just carrying out his wishes. If he wants it pruned properly or cut down I will do that as well. And most importantly, when someone asks my opinion I tell them the right thing to do.

I realize I am in the middle here and trying to do the right thing and still stay in business. I am not a hack and I operate a professional tree service. I inform my customers on the proper tree care methods and provide them with literature to back up my story. When giving the chance to do the right thing I do it. If the customer tells me to do what is best I will do what is best and suffer the butt chewing because I did not reduce the overall size of the tree although my chip box is full. I tell them that is what is best. If I am busy and they ask for a topping...I say no thanks....not interested. But, if it comes down to it....I will top a tree if the customer listens to my story and says thank you...i understand but I really want the tree topped. It has been topped before and if it dies it dies....then we will cut it down....how can you argue with that. Yes it makes me look bad for doing it...but it beats sitting at home wondering when I can pay my bills.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

teamtree said:


> Ok...Most trees guys know that topping is bad. I have read all the literature and know how to prune a tree.
> 
> You need to take your arguements to the customer who requests to have their trees topped. Yes their are bad tree guys out there that do not know any better and just do what the guys before them did. In my opinion, it does not pay to educate non-paying customers.
> 
> ...



_Ok...Most trees guys know that topping is bad. I have read all the literature and know how to prune a tree._

*That is good. Read all you can. Learning about trees is great!*

_You need to take your arguements to the customer who requests to have their trees topped. Yes their are bad tree guys out there that do not know any better and just do what the guys before them did. In my opinion, it does not pay to educate non-paying customers. _

*I do not expect the customer to understand what proper tree care is. That is why they hire professionals to educate them and lead them to do what is best for their tree…which is ultimately what is best for them. I have had no problem explaining to the potential client what is proper care for their tree and they respect and appreciate it. I cannot remember the last job I had to walk away from because they did not heed my advice. If they still want their tree ruined…sorry, I’m not the guy!*

_However, if your market (say the midwest) requests this service and believe me most of the calls for trimming are actually for "topping". They could care less what I say or even what a certified arborist says about it. I had a CA work for me and several customers told me to leave him at the shop when I come out to "top" their trees._

*I’m sorry, but it sound like a great opportunity to come to your area and do some tree care education for the public. Trust me, if you will stand for what is right, people will follow you. I just posted a lot of information. Copy it and hand it out.*

_Again, don't make out like it is the end of the world. How many ads do you see on TV to stop this activity. When is the TCIA and ISA going to put some money into national advertising?_

*I would be in favor of this. National advertizing is expensive. There is a lot of information on the internet. Avail yourself to it.*

_If you want to educate people it has to be a real attempt to educate the masses._

*You can at least start in your town and your custormers as I have done here. *

_How many cigarettes are sold everyday? How many ads to quit smoking are run each day? Would it help?

So you guys preach all you want about the bad guys topping trees but if people are willing to pay for the service, it will continue._ 

*It will only continue as long as it is provided. This is what we are trying to accomplish here. STOP THE INDISCRIMINATE TOPPING OF TREES![/B]*


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## kennertree (Oct 2, 2008)

Topping is bad for business. I get calls all the time to repair these terrible trims jobs. The customer had it topped a few years back and now they have a mess on their hands. They didn't call the tree service that topped them. The guys that are topping usually only work for a person once, unless they just have them re-topped again. Most people learn the first time.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 2, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Have at it. Everyone including yourself nows knows clearly that you support and practice unprofessional tree care.



Removal. Where's my chainsaw!!!!!!


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

teamtree said:


> Ok...now this is funny. I have been asked to top hundreds of trees but only 1 person has ever asked me if I don't top trees.
> 
> Again, the market rules. I don't like it as well. I think it is wrong. I wish everyone who owned a tree knew and cared about their trees in a manner that would prevent topping. However, as long as someone, even a homeowner goes out there and tops his tree, someone will see it and think it is the right thing to do. I equate this problem to trying to stop an avalanche. I am so sick of going out and giving the same story to every customer about why topping hurts while I am looking at trees that have been topped regularly for the last 30 years. I can tell you in a county of 30,000 people and hundreds of churches, municipal buildings and commercial businesses. I would bet that of say out of a 10,000 properties I would bet that at least 50% and probably more of those properties have had their trees topped. That is at least 20,000 trees in one county in one state that has there trees topped. This practice was going on for years before I even thought about tree service as a living.
> 
> ...




_Ok...now this is funny. I have been asked to top hundreds of trees but only 1 person has ever asked me if I don't top trees. _

*I HAVE HAD PEOPLE ASK ME IF I WOULD TOP THEIR TREES AND I SAID NO! They said, “Great!” You are the one we want to hire. We don’t want some “hack” out here!*

_Again, the market rules. I don't like it as well. I think it is wrong. I wish everyone who owned a tree knew and cared about their trees in a manner that would prevent topping. However, as long as someone, even a homeowner goes out there and tops his tree, someone will see it and think it is the right thing to do. I equate this problem to trying to stop an avalanche. I am so sick of going out and giving the same story to every customer about why topping hurts while I am looking at trees that have been topped regularly for the last 30 years. I can tell you in a county of 30,000 people and hundreds of churches, municipal buildings and commercial businesses. I would bet that of say out of a 10,000 properties I would bet that at least 50% and probably more of those properties have had their trees topped. That is at least 20,000 trees in one county in one state that has there trees topped. This practice was going on for years before I even thought about tree service as a living. _

*I think you have a great opportunity to be a leader in your area and educate the public about proper tree care. You could own the market. People don’t want to do what is wrong for their trees. They just don’t know better. But, it will need to start with you saying no to all this topping.*

_I get into the tree biz trying to do what is right only to find out very few people care about what is right. I am trying to make a difference in my community. But I have to stay in business to make a difference._

*Continue to take the high road. Do some advertizing that topping is bad.*

_Don't tell me the facts....I know the numbers. And the government does not care as the local county government had over 40 trees topped on public grounds. _

*Sorry to hear that. They were misinformed.*

_So don't tell me what the #### to do and how to do it. I don't care what you CA and BCMA say....you all can sit on your high perches and preach all you want. _

*Sorry to hear that. I hope someday you will be able to become a CA yourself. It’s a great program.*

_Here is an idea....why don't you educate the market on what they want. 

*I do educate the market where I operate.*_

_Here is another statistic, there are no CA in the southern part of the state that operates a legitimate business and educates the market. They stick with their few customers and say #### the rest._

*That is why our industry stinks. We have little to no jurisdiction over the operation of illegitimate tree care providers. They are many services illegal in their operations, parole, safety procedures, insurances and licenses. This needs to stop. If the illegitimate tree care provider goes away, so will the butchering.*


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## treeseer (Oct 2, 2008)

kennertree said:


> Most people learn the first time.


Or the second. I get 5 calls to restore hacked trees for every 1 topping request. Tree owners here are disgusted with topping, and toppers.

team I feel your pain but it's good work well shown that can change markets. Topping begets more topping--the cycle will not end until the man with the saw just says NO! Most callers who want 1/2 smaller trees are open to accepting a tree 1/4 smaller after careful reduction. If you are hired to top to 1/2, just do it the way you think it should be done, and let them study it a while. Most will accept it, and pay.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 2, 2008)

I wonder if we're all comparing apples to apples. You've used the words "indiscriminate topping" a few times good doctor and I think the majority of us agree that this is unacceptable but what about a "severe reduction" for the safety of a client's home, ya know, where their children sleep at night? Yes, a tree cut in half will eventually die but if you bring it back to good, strong branches it could continue to live. Yes you could cable it, do a "crown reduction", hug it and sing kumbaya but you'll still have several tons of wood hanging over your client's nursery. A good, solid cut back of the tree could be the only option. 'Tis a better than cutting it down, methinks.


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## teamtree (Oct 2, 2008)

I have all the literature and pamphlets to hand out to the customer. 

I have read enough on the subject. I do not need to be educated any more on the subject matter.

I am glad that all your customers listen to you.

I am glad you have never given an estimate only to find out someone did something other than what you advised.

One question....you never had a client tell you not to cut a tree that you recommended for removal?

You are truly a lucky person. 

Like I said...I know what is right....it is the customer who needs help.

Please come to our area and do your best to educate the whole area. I will foot the bill for your hotel. I will rent out a hall to have you speak. This is a crisis area and I would say one of the worst areas in the world to promote tree care. I need help. I need more legitimate tree services to help promote what is right. I am fighting the battle with no support. I would just like a little ####ing appreciation for fighting the battle.

I will tell you about a couple of wins. A large church in the area who previously had about 60 trees topped (not by us) and we were asked to come in and give our advise on their trees. We wrote a proposal to go through and do a crown restoration project and examine the trees for hazards and possible removal. I mentioned several trees that needed to come down due to the effects of previous toppings. We priced it a little low to get the work to show the whole church what proper tree care is all about. 

So...I feel good about the work I do.


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## limbwalker54 (Oct 2, 2008)

TreeCo, we are on the same page. I am studying for my certification right now, and hope to achieve my goal of educating my clients one at a time.

And, BTW, so far I have been 100% successful at convincing clients who weren't clear on proper pruning as to what it actually is, and why topping is bad. If I run into someone who insists, they can insist somewhere else. When I'm at their neighbor's home three years down the road performing proper tree care on trees that look better, are healthy, and aren't in decline due to some hack hatracking them to pieces I'll give them a price on the removal of the carcass and I will remind them of the wise words "topping is bad".

Even a little picture I have on a sticker says 'if God wanted trees to look like this, he would have created birds with chainsaw feet'. 

Believe it or not, that picture helps me illustrate my point with clients sometimes.

Oh, and if anyone here wants to call me elite for doing the right thing, that's fine. I guess when you're performing substandard practices, any practice that is proper MUST be elite......


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I wonder if we're all comparing apples to apples. You've used the words "indiscriminate topping" a few times good doctor and I think the majority of us agree that this is unacceptable but what about a "severe reduction" for the safety of a client's home, ya know, where their children sleep at night? Yes, a tree cut in half will eventually die but if you bring it back to good, strong branches it could continue to live. Yes you could cable it, do a "crown reduction", hug it and sing kumbaya but you'll still have several tons of wood hanging over your client's nursery. A good, solid cut back of the tree could be the only option. 'Tis a better than cutting it down, methinks.



The reason I use the work “indiscriminate” is because there are a few exceptions to the rule. This get complicated to explain because there are so many scenarios, and types of trees with different growth characteristics. Each tree and situation needs to be evaluated on its own merits. A general rule that I follow is that I do not recommend “crown reduction” or “drop-crotch pruning” often. I always try to work with a tree maintaining its natural branching, leaders, or apical dominance. Height seldom equates hazard. There are certain structural problem a tree can develop that will increase the chance of failure, and those can be mitigated through various means including pruning. Hazard tree abatement is a whole different subject which should be put on another thread.

Here is a general rule, if your pruning does not maintain the apical dominance of the branch, or if it creates excessive suckering (water-sprouts), you very well may have made a mistake. Pollarding is an exception. The excessive suckering is not natural, and is the trees response to injury.

If a person is concerned that their tree is too tall, and usually they have no understanding of that concern, I tell them the moon is 93,000,000 miles away and it will not be rubbing it any time soon. I then explain to them how tree are designed, their growth characteristics, and inspect the tree for structural defects. I’ve always been able to answer their concerns, give them good information, and sell proper tree work that is good for their trees.
I’m hoping that others reading these posts will learn to do the same. It’s not that hard.


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## BCMA (Oct 2, 2008)

teamtree said:


> I have all the literature and pamphlets to hand out to the customer.
> 
> I have read enough on the subject. I do not need to be educated any more on the subject matter.
> 
> ...



GOOD JOB...TEAMTREE. That is what it is about!


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## teamtree (Oct 2, 2008)

You all make good points that supports what I am trying to do for my company, my community and this industry.

I do educate my community, I volunteer my time with and organization trying to stop topping.

I agree and I admit when I stand my ground I get more attention from the customer. I feel better when I walk away but with some remorse that I am letting the "hacks" win by doing the work. I need to get over playing down to the competition. 

I agree, I wish there was a little more structure for this industry. 

I may not be as good as BCMA and TreeCo and I agree with almost every thing they say, especially as far as tree care goes. But I disagree that I am hurting the industry by topping a few trees every year at the price of the greater good. For example, I recently removed 5 large trees that had been previously topped (technical rigging required) and trimmed a 6th tree that most would consider a "topping". If the other guy got the job....someone who openly admits topping as an accepted practice and advertises "topping" in the yellow pages...I would have promoted a loser. I am supposed to walk away from that job and let him have all that removal money??? Money to be spent by him in the bars. He does no good for the community....He does not educate customers. If me hitting him in the wallet was bad then I should get out of the business and let him make hay and topping trees. I can take that money and help promote proper tree care. I know it sounds ass backwards but I believe it to be the right thing in the right situation. 

I spent about an hour with a lady and discussed the effects of topping and said I will give you an estimate to properly prune her trees. A few weeks later one of my employees ask about the job and who was doing it. Well, it was the guy mentioned above and he was making topping cuts at about 8" limbs. Here is a pic of what he did....so what did I do wrong??? I provided her with several items of literature from the TCIA and ISA. I told her about the problems they would have...

My mother ask them about the job and they told her they thought the guys who did the job did a nice job trimming their trees and would recommend them.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 2, 2008)

BCMA said:


> 1. If everyone knows that indiscriminate topping is bad, then why is this type of tree care still practiced?
> 
> 2. It may be “only a tree” but why ruin it? Is it because there are many more? That a pretty lame excuse!
> 
> ...



:deadhorse:


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## ropensaddle (Oct 2, 2008)

I have topped for power line clearance but would have rather removed
the trees and planted better species! I have topped to preserve a severe
crown die back but I only cut the dead out still looked topped. In every case I have; I have tried to convince the customer they would be better served by replacement and removal ! Top a healthy tree I won't I don't want anyone identifying me by hacking up their trees. Thinning and slight crown reduction is what I recommend or just thinning!


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## Rftreeman (Oct 2, 2008)

teamtree said:


> Here is a pic of what he did....so what did I do wrong??? I provided her with several items of literature from the TCIA and ISA. I told her about the problems they would have...


you didn't offer her what she wanted, that's why you did get the job............


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## teamtree (Oct 2, 2008)

Well....one thing is for sure...life is too short to argue online about tree care. I will handle my business the best way I can and do the right thing as much as possible. 

I am a realist and this problem is not going away overnight. And all of the people who have enough business to not have to "adjust" to the market....I say good for you. I am trying to get there. 

I will tell you this...I will pay anyone of you $5000 plus expenses to come here for 1 week and go on a minimum of 40 sales calls and sell proper tree care to 20 of them. I am telling you I am in tree care hell. I would love to take some of you "CA" and "BCMA" to this one guys house. He told me I sounded like a CA and wanted me off his property. He knows what he wants. LOL


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 2, 2008)

BCMA said:


> The reason I use the work “indiscriminate” is because there are a few exceptions to the rule. This get complicated to explain because there are so many scenarios, and types of trees with different growth characteristics. Each tree and situation needs to be evaluated on its own merits. A general rule that I follow is that I do not recommend “crown reduction” or “drop-crotch pruning” often. I always try to work with a tree maintaining its natural branching, leaders, or apical dominance. Height seldom equates hazard. There are certain structural problem a tree can develop that will increase the chance of failure, and those can be mitigated through various means including pruning. Hazard tree abatement is a whole different subject which should be put on another thread.
> 
> Here is a general rule, if your pruning does not maintain the apical dominance of the branch, or if it creates excessive suckering (water-sprouts), you very well may have made a mistake. Pollarding is an exception. The excessive suckering is not natural, and is the trees response to injury.
> 
> ...



All right. Your "moon" analogy is the most retarded thing I've ever heard but I'll do my best to overlook that for some of the valid points you brought up prior to that infraction of idiocy. Maybe I'm finding myself on the "arborist" side of this debate because I don't do indiscriminate topping but I have done things to trees which I know won't be helpful to them in the long run but have done my best to find a meidian between "proper tree care", what the customer wants, and what's most profitable for me. The pictures of toppings you put up are obvious hack jobs but there is SOOOO much in between that and what most of you guys tout as proper tree care. Every thing has to be taken into account, proximity of structures, overall health of tree, types of storms the tree will be exposed to, type of tree yada yada yada....
The point is. Putting regulations, stipulations, across the board bull shisms on our industry will not solve that problem because, as YOU said, every situation is different so taking a hard azzed, "trees must be saved at all costs" stand point is lunacy. But that's just me, and I'm simply a stupid redneck with a chainsaw.


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## clearance (Oct 2, 2008)

No one here has actually advocated topping except for specific and often practical reasons (ie, trees under powerlines). However Tim has chosen to label all those who are are not fanatically opposed to topping as hacks.

He, like Treeseer is a preservationist, not a conservationist, like myself. Trees are good, yes, are they to be worshipped and put on a pedestal above human needs and desires? I think not.

If him and those of his ilk have thier way, it will be yet another loss of freedom that has made your country great.


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## limbwalker54 (Oct 2, 2008)

......I'm goin to bed......Gotta wake up for proper tree care tomorrow


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## 1I'dJak (Oct 2, 2008)

I better go to bed as well...I've got about a good 12-20 is old growth trees to top tommorow...


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## forestryworks (Oct 2, 2008)

people who call and ask me to top their trees...
i tell them you might as well cut the damn thing down
topping kills it
and i walk away

if they want me to take it down they'll call

otherwise, i've got firewood to sell :greenchainsaw:


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## clearance (Oct 2, 2008)

1I'dJak said:


> I better go to bed as well...I've got about a good 12-20 is old growth trees to top tommorow...



You are going to hell. Me too, I can't even start to remember how many old growth trees I topped when I did your job for over a year.

Windfirming in riparian areas, check it out guys.


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

teamtree said:


> You all make good points that supports what I am trying to do for my company, my community and this industry.
> 
> I do educate my community, I volunteer my time with and organization trying to stop topping.
> 
> ...



Regardless of losing a job here and there, continue to hold to the professional standards of our industry. You will come out ahead in the long run.

Just this week I heard about two of the bottom-feeders going out of business. Neither one had a state contractor’s license, and were probably not insured.


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I have topped for power line clearance but would have rather removed
> the trees and planted better species! I have topped to preserve a severe
> crown die back but I only cut the dead out still looked topped. In every case I have; I have tried to convince the customer they would be better served by replacement and removal ! Top a healthy tree I won't I don't want anyone identifying me by hacking up their trees. Thinning and slight crown reduction is what I recommend or just thinning!



You're on the right track. Taking the dead out of a die-back crown is not topping. I would consider it crown restoration or simply dead-wood removal.

Stand firm on NO TOPPING!


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

teamtree said:


> Well....one thing is for sure...life is too short to argue online about tree care. I will handle my business the best way I can and do the right thing as much as possible.
> 
> I am a realist and this problem is not going away overnight. And all of the people who have enough business to not have to "adjust" to the market....I say good for you. I am trying to get there.
> 
> I will tell you this...I will pay anyone of you $5000 plus expenses to come here for 1 week and go on a minimum of 40 sales calls and sell proper tree care to 20 of them. I am telling you I am in tree care hell. I would love to take some of you "CA" and "BCMA" to this one guys house. He told me I sounded like a CA and wanted me off his property. He knows what he wants. LOL



I would be more than happy to come to your town and sell tree work with you. I would teach you everything I know, and I'm sure I could learn a lot from you. It would be a good time!


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> All right. The point is. Putting regulations, stipulations, across the board bull shisms on our industry will not solve that problem because, as YOU said, every situation is different so taking a hard azzed, "trees must be saved at all costs" stand point is lunacy. But that's just me, and I'm simply a stupid redneck with a chainsaw.



I did not say that trees need to be "saved" at all costs. But I will say and please feel free to quote me, "perfectly healthy trees should not be ruined by topping, or because If I don’t top them…someone else will!”

Also, you do not have to be what you said about yourself. You can be a respected professional in the tree care industry providing quality tree work. It is a respectable profession when it’s done right.


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance said:


> No one here has actually advocated topping except for specific and often practical reasons (ie, trees under powerlines). However Tim has chosen to label all those who are are not fanatically opposed to topping as hacks.
> 
> He, like Treeseer is a preservationist, not a conservationist, like myself. Trees are good, yes, are they to be worshipped and put on a pedestal above human needs and desires? I think not.
> 
> If him and those of his ilk have thier way, it will be yet another loss of freedom that has made your country great.



Trees are not to be worshipped and put above human needs and desires, unless it is YOUR NEED AND DESIRE TO GO OUT AND RUIN MORE TREES! I will then put trees above your needs and desires. Whatever your needs and desires are…a few bucks and some beer.

I also do not think I will be able to get through Congress a bill that will outlaw topping. You should be good for at least a few more years .


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance said:


> You are going to hell. Me too, I can't even start to remember how many old growth trees I topped when I did your job for over a year.
> 
> Windfirming in riparian areas, check it out guys.



Clearance- you or anyone else do not have to go to hell! Really, all you need to do is repent and stop topping trees. I really hope that you and some other will be able to embrace this simple concept. Topping is bad. Stop it!
And I'm not talking about utility line clearance.


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## clearance (Oct 3, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Clearance- you or anyone else do not have to go to hell! Really, all you need to do is repent and stop topping trees. I really hope that you and some other will be able to embrace this simple concept. Topping is bad. Stop it!
> And I'm not talking about utility line clearance.



You don't know what windfirming is do you? Course not, it involves topping trees so its bad. I will explain it to you, but again, with so many letters behind your name.....and it is nothing to do with utility work.

Windfirming is done when an area is clearcut, it is done to prevent the trees that are along the edge, usually beside a creek, from blowing down. The trees right on the edge of the clearcut for about 60' back into the standing timber are spiral pruned and topped, at around 6"-8". 

Without this, these trees, which have stood for hundreds of years will blow down, will, not maybe. I have seen it happen, actually seen it, seen the results many times. So, when we windfirm, we are saving the shelter over creeks, leaving wildlife corridors open. The whole idea is not to save these trees forever, it is to give the understory time to grow.

I have no desire to ruin trees, the windfirming work I did and Jak does now is a good thing. You saying my needs are...."a few bucks and some beer" is a slur, a putdown, just like how you repeatedly call people bottom feeders and hacks. You have no knowledge of my desires, wants or wishes.

So again, it is for you to be educated, about what goes on in other places.


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## forestryworks (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance said:


> You don't know what windfirming is do you? Course not, it involves topping trees so its bad. I will explain it to you, but again, with so many letters behind your name.....and it is nothing to do with utility work.
> 
> Windfirming is done when an area is clearcut, it is done to prevent the trees that are along the edge, usually beside a creek, from blowing down. The trees right on the edge of the clearcut for about 60' back into the standing timber are spiral pruned and topped, at around 6"-8".
> 
> ...



great informative post, sir

tried to rep ya, but i'm out


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## lxt (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance, some of these guys just dont know!! yep they have the insignia, the title and lots of books with information they have yet to apply to one aspect of tree care let alone to the other sectors of tree care.

I would welcome bcma to come to my area and try to sell his "no topping" philosophy......I`ve been trying for along time, the truth is if the home owner wants their tree topped.....WANT!! someone will do it!! like I said in a previous post who are you to tell someone what to do to their trees.

the thought is & I run into it a lot.."I planted it 35yrs ago, topped er every 4-5yrs and thats what I want done, period!" 

all anyone can do is the best they can do with what they`ve to work with & above all be safe!!


LXT...........


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance said:


> You don't know what windfirming is do you? Course not, it involves topping trees so its bad. I will explain it to you, but again, with so many letters behind your name.....and it is nothing to do with utility work.
> 
> Windfirming is done when an area is clearcut, it is done to prevent the trees that are along the edge, usually beside a creek, from blowing down. The trees right on the edge of the clearcut for about 60' back into the standing timber are spiral pruned and topped, at around 6"-8".
> 
> ...



I understand the effects of clear-cuts and the potential for failure on edge-trees. I have never heard or seen of your prescription being prescribed or executed. Yes, it is true, that a tree that has been cut in half or has had its height reduced severely, is less likely to fall over in this setting. But, as you solve one problem, you have also opened up yourself other problems, unless you are trying to make snags, wildlife habitat, trees with heart rot, etc.. I don’t think you will get foresters or timber producers prescribing your recommendation. 

Do you have any documentation, research, or papers written on this procedure recommending it?

Here is a little I’ve studied on the subject but I realize that I’ve got much to learn. The more I learn, the more I realize what I do not know.

*Hazard Tree Evaluation and Risk Management​*
• Certified Tree Risk Assessor #168, Pacific Northwest Chapter of the International Society of Arboriculture, Portland, OR. 2006
• International Tree Failure Database Assessor, ISA-PNW Conference, Corvallis, OR, 2007
• Hazard Tree Evaluation Workshop, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Portland, Maine, 1993
• Tree Risk Assessment, Ed Hays, Pacific Northwest Chapter – ISA, Spokane, WA. 2007
• Case Studies in Risk Assessment, ASCA Annual Conference, Napa, CA. 2006
• Basic Tree Risk Assessment, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 1, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 2, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 3, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Managing Risk in the Urban Forest Part 4, International Society of Arboriculture CEU, 2007
• Understanding the Connection between Dynamic Wind Forces and Hazard Trees, Ken James, ISA-PNW Conference, Corvallis, OR, 2007
• Tree Risk Assessment, Victor D. Merullo, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Nashville Tennessee, 2007
• Root Cutting and Root Risk Assessment, E. Thomas Smiley, Ph.D., The Bartlett Research Lab, American Society of Consulting Arborist Annual Conference, Nashville Tennessee, 2007
• Tree Failure Risk Evaluations, International Society of Arboriculture Compendium CEU, 2008


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## Mike Barcaskey (Oct 3, 2008)

lxt said:


> clearance, some of these guys just dont know!! yep they have the insignia, the title and lots of books with information they have yet to apply to one aspect of tree care let alone to the other sectors of tree care.
> LXT...........




that is real funny right there, coming from a guy who used the word "Certified" in his newspaper ad, but yet has no certifications


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## Rftreeman (Oct 3, 2008)

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah so I guess if I just start stub cutting then I'll be ok???????


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## clearance (Oct 3, 2008)

BCMA said:


> I understand the effects of clear-cuts and the potential for failure on edge-trees. I have never heard or seen of your prescription being prescribed or executed. Yes, it is true, that a tree that has been cut in half or has had its height reduced severely, is less likely to fall over in this setting. But, as you solve one problem, you have also opened up yourself other problems, unless you are trying to make snags, wildlife habitat, trees with heart rot, etc.. I don’t think you will get foresters or timber producers prescribing your recommendation.
> 
> Do you have any documentation, research, or papers written on this procedure recommending it?
> 
> ...



Registered profesional foresters working with forest scientists developed this practice. It is paid for by the timber producers. The trees are mostly over 100', so a 6"-8" top is not cutting the tree in half. As you say, you have a lot to learn, as all the stuff you have put up here about courses, speeches, whatever, has nothing to do with treework way out in the bush.


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## clearance (Oct 3, 2008)

*Windfirming*

BCMA, and anyone else who is interested in what windfirming does, just type in the word to Google. Windfirming, lots to read and pictures to look at. Especially type in S.J. Mitchell windfirming. He is a scientist, really the man when it comes to this practice. There are lots of studies and real intelligent things written about this, by people with university letters behind thier names, not to much ISA stuff going on here at all.


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## Booshcat (Oct 3, 2008)

Is topping trees worse than clubbing baby seals?
Inquiring minds want to know.


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## Jlarnard (Oct 3, 2008)

Well I guess that this has become a sore subject. I personally am not going to condemn anyone who chooses to top trees. Mainly because I know it won't get anyone anywhere anyways. But now I have a new question for those who don't top trees. How or what is the best way to prune topped trees. I know the customer wants a ball of leaves. But is there any advice on how to help correct the topped tree? Other than removal that is. And I don't want to exclude the toppers out there, your input is welcome too.


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## Jlarnard (Oct 3, 2008)

Correct me if I am wrong. But isn't windfirming for the timber industry?
Not residential? And has it in anyway been accepted in the US?


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## clearance (Oct 3, 2008)

Jlarnard said:


> Correct me if I am wrong. But isn't windfirming for the timber industry?
> Not residential? And has it in anyway been accepted in the US?



You a right, but, as BCMA says, topping trees is wrong. He says he is not talking about line clearance, perhaps he will say he is not talking about windfirming also. So, people should say these things before going on rants about topping and labelling others as hacks, etc.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 3, 2008)

we're all hacks...................................:notrolls2:


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance said:


> BCMA, and anyone else who is interested in what windfirming does, just type in the word to Google. Windfirming, lots to read and pictures to look at. Especially type in S.J. Mitchell windfirming. He is a scientist, really the man when it comes to this practice. There are lots of studies and real intelligent things written about this, by people with university letters behind thier names, not to much ISA stuff going on here at all.



I did google "windfirming" and found out a few things. Thanks for the heads-up on this. I have included a couple of articles and some links if anyone is interested.

This "windfirming" prescription is used primarily to treat edge trees on logging projects or where there has been a sudden disruption in a stand of timber. In a forested situation where trees rely on each other for support, and have not developed the needed stem taper to support themselves, the practice of "windfirming" is being researched as a prescription to prevent wind-throw trees. From what I have read on going, research is still being performed.

The practice of "windfirming" includes topping, thinning of trees (feathering), and selective branch removal to reduce the wind-sail of the crowns. This "windfirming" practice is a very site-specific treatment associated with natural timber stands and timber management in conifer stands.

It is true based on simple physics that a conifer tree that has been reduced in height by let's say- 40%, is less likely to blow over in a wind storm than a tree that has not been reduced. I refer to it as the "lever-arm" effect. A taller tree collects more wind and has more leverage on the root system and the bole, than a tree reduced 40% of its original height. 

How do we apply this treatment to the average residential customer? Now we are getting into “tree risk management”, and again this is another subject. The tree must first be determined if it is truly a potential hazard. The includes understand the site, soils, weather patterns, species of tree, exposure, size of the tree, the target, local failure patterns, etc.. Once you have done this assessment, which may included many other factors, now we are ready to make some recommendations.

One of the recommendations may be, leave the tree alone, it’s just fine. Other recommendations may be a crown cleaning, or crown thinning. Be very careful about over-thinning crowns. You can damage the tree by over-thinning. The last option I would consider is height reduction (TOPPING) to reduce the lever-arm effect. There you go…I top trees. The truth finally comes out. Yes, I’m a hack like a few others! Burn me at the stake!
In the past 10 years or so I have made that recommendation and implemented it in three or four cases. They were situations where there were high liability targets involved, and other mitigation options such as cabling, bracing, or a complete removal were not an option. Yes, I have this “reduction” tool in my box, but it is used very seldom.

We have a company in our area that will go door to door selling this “wind-sail-reduction” approach. They will sometimes use fear tactics to scare people into hiring their service. They usually gouge the customer on the price. The company pays their door to door sales people and the tree crew on a percentage basis. In other words, if you’re not selling tree work, you’re not getting paid. This type of business practice, and this particular business has lead to some real bad arboriculture practices. They seem to say anything to get on your property to cut trees.

In conclusion, “windfirming” as defined in the research papers and its application, is not a general practice to be used in the residential setting. Windfirming is a Canadian forestry practice to help prevent wind-throws along the edges of forest openings. I do not find this forestry concept being practiced in the States.

Articles-
Routine winter storms often cause windthrow along new stand edges exposed by clearcutting in coastal British Columbia. The operational efficiency of top-pruning, topping and edge feathering (thinning) treatments for windfirming (i.e. reducing wind damage to) newly exposed cutblock boundaries was tested. Helicopter-based pruning techniques were faster and less expensive per tree than manual topping techniques. Of the two helicopter techniques tested, the heli-saw was faster than the passive shear, particularly in mature stands with large branches. Treatment units extending for 30 m into the stand edge were monitored in the years immediately following treatment. Uprooting and breakage in untreated controls 1 year after exposure by harvesting ranged from 0 to 85 per cent of stems. Overall, helicopter-based pruning and manual topping techniques reduced windthrow within the treated plots by 40 per cent compared with untreated controls. Treatment units in which all overstorey stems were topped or pruned had less wind damage than those in which only 50 per cent of overstorey stems were treated. Few topped or pruned stems died standing in the first 2 years following treatment, but mortality increased in the third year after treatment. Edge feathering results were mixed. Further research is needed before recommending feathering as a general treatment. 

Document Type: Research article 

Affiliations: 1: British Columbia Ministry of Forests, Vancouver Forest Region, BC, Canada 2: University of British Columbia, Faculty of Forestry, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z4 

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/training/00015/lesson5/5-print.htm

STANLEY PARK OPEN AFTER NIGHT OF HIGH WINDS
January 15, 2008 (No. 3) - Stanley Park is open to the public after a night of gusting winds that knocked down several trees on roadways. Park crews worked during the night to remove two large trees that had fallen onto North Lagoon Drive. Another tree fell onto Park Drive near HMCS Discovery. Today staff are cleaning up debris left by last night's windstorm and inspecting trails for safety hazards.

Last night's storm was one of the first tests of the restoration work carried out last year to protect the forest from future windstorms. Over the past six months forestry experts have been assessing newly exposed forest edges created by the December 2006 storm and stabilizing weakened trees through a process called “windfirming.” The practice of windfirming involves the selective thinning of branches to reduce the impact of high winds and the risk of future blowdowns.

The public is reminded that the southbound exit ramp of the Stanley Park Causeway, located just south of the Lions Gate Bridge, will be closed from 8 AM to 5 PM today, Tuesday, January 15th for regularly scheduled forestry work in that area of the park. 

http://vancouver.ca/parks/news/2008/080115_highwinds.htm

http://www.library.for.gov.bc.ca/ip...ndfirming&aspect=basic_search&x=13&y=13#focus

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/frbc1999/frbc1999mr119.pdf

http://www.forestry.ubc.ca/Portals/0/docs/BranchLinesMarch07.pdf


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

Booshcat said:


> Is topping trees worse than clubbing baby seals?
> Inquiring minds want to know.



Topping trees is neither better or worse than clubbing seals. Both are wrong!


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## clearance (Oct 3, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Topping trees is neither better or worse than clubbing seals. Both are wrong!



Always, or in some cases? Nothing wrong with clubbing baby seals, thier pelts provide income, they die quickly and are no where near endangered.

As far as topping trees, is it ok with you to windfirm trees in the bush? And I don't have a clue where you get this 40% removal, at least your down from half the tree in other posts. I will say it again, the tops are like 6"-8", not much on a tree over 100', little on a tree over 150'.

And now you finally admit, a dozen pages in, you have topped trees.........


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 3, 2008)

I helped bid a job today for a teacher who wants his Silver Maple topped. It is a beauty, Probably in the 4 1/2' range with many leads. He wasn't there, so I couldn't talk to him in person.

We are recommending a shape and trim. Take some of the lower limbs and outside limbs to shape it up, then cut horizontal limbs (laterals?, crown cleaning?) on the inside. Also, there are some rotten stubs where old big cuts were made, I hope I can use these as my case to not top this tree. This should lighten it up, hopefully enough for him, because I don't want to top this beauty. The trunk is perfect, no splits, very solid and in perfect form, height for wind leverage isn't an issue, maybe in his mind.

I don't mind topping a junk tree, cause it's already junk, but a perfect virgin like this? 

Am I correct on my prunning recommendation?


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## ropensaddle (Oct 3, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I helped bid a job today for a teacher who wants his Silver Maple topped. It is a beauty, Probably in the 4 1/2' range with many leads. He wasn't there, so I couldn't talk to him in person.
> 
> We are recommending a shape and trim. Take some of the lower limbs and outside limbs to shape it up, then cut horizontal limbs (laterals?, crown cleaning?) on the inside. Also, there are some rotten stubs where old big cuts were made, I hope I can use these as my case to not top this tree. This should lighten it up, hopefully enough for him, because I don't want to top this beauty. The trunk is perfect, no splits, very solid and in perfect form, height for wind leverage isn't an issue, maybe in his mind.
> 
> ...



Remove all crossing branches first the selectively thin being careful
not to lions tail if done right, it will allow wind to go through the tree
without acting like a parachute! Some reductions could help shape
the canopy and lighten the load some lower limbs can be reduced
to allow mowing clearance as well.


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## juststumps (Oct 3, 2008)

customer buys house,,, nasty tree next to it... wife is due any day now and the tree is over the new nursery..

customer is worried about this KNARLY tree falling on to his house.killing his kid...he asks this to 3 tree guys..

HO to #1: tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#1 "cut it down and plant a new one. it won't hit anything til the kid is out of college !"

HO to #2:tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#2 " take the top out, and shape it up, make it safer than it is now.."

HO to #2: will it hit anything if it fails ?

#2 "might take out the deck railing, and some shrubs "

HO to #3:tree guy, i don't want this nasty tree falling on my house killing my kid.. or crushing anything... what would you do ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3 : so , you can tell me, it won't fall on my house ,kill my kid, or break anything ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3:but will it fall on my house ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3:but will it fall on my house ?

#3 "with proper care and pruning it should be a viable tree for years to come "

HO to #3: I really don't care about years to come !!! i want my family safe !!!

Honey, call those other two guys !


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## kennertree (Oct 3, 2008)

juststumps said:


> customer buys house,,, nasty tree next to it... wife is due any day now and the tree is over the new nursery..
> 
> customer is worried about this KNARLY tree falling on to his house.killing his kid...he asks this to 3 tree guys..
> 
> ...



Better cut them all, those trees will kill someone. Better not walk outside, the sky could fall too.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 3, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Remove all crossing branches first the selectively thin being careful
> not to lions tail if done right, it will allow wind to go through the tree
> without acting like a parachute! Some reductions could help shape
> the canopy and lighten the load some lower limbs can be reduced
> to allow mowing clearance as well.



Thanks Rope, that sounds about like I was thinking. I have never read on all the prunning techniques so I don't know the terms, or ISA standards, but I've been in trees for a while now (15 years) and have a sense of what works.


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## oldirty (Oct 3, 2008)

rubbing, crossing , and competing. branches growing vertically off the stem (but in the same breath, some of these can be pruned as if they were a tree themselve. do this to avoid the lion tail) and branches growing back up and to the inside of the tree.

dont forget to work the tips too. bring your polesaw with ya, maybe 2 poles. sometimes tough to get to the tips on a silver.


look at you nails, getting your prune on. by the sounds of your tree description that thing sounded like the perfect candidate for your sheds!

have fun and bring another rope up with you in case you need a couple tie in's or bring the long rope up and double up on it. 

edit: an almost perfect tree to use the sling and biners as a false crotch too.


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

Jlarnard said:


> Well I guess that this has become a sore subject. I personally am not going to condemn anyone who chooses to top trees. Mainly because I know it won't get anyone anywhere anyways. But now I have a new question for those who don't top trees. How or what is the best way to prune topped trees. I know the customer wants a ball of leaves. But is there any advice on how to help correct the topped tree? Other than removal that is. And I don't want to exclude the toppers out there, your input is welcome too.



Jlarnard- You made the original post about topping. See what you have done! Just kidding. Reading your original post I can see that you are concerned about the whole-sale practice of indiscriminate topping.

_*Everyday as I drive it seems I see a new tree topping job done. I am sure this is exageration but still.... I am amazed that either they don't know or they don't care that it is not accepted. I have talked to a crew several times
from out of town, when I saw them topping. It was getting pretty ugly. You know... the first time I coached em, the second time I had a document to give them, the third time my family was threatened.
The customers too, it's like they have this out of controll ball of leaves next to the house, but they defend the practice.
Any wisdoms out there?*_

This is defiantly a hot topic that needs to address in our industry as well as other unethical and unprofessional practices. I think we have made some headway with some on this subject, and those who continue to have a closed mind at least have been exposed to some good information. I hope it will cause them to think and reconsider their tree care practices. I have put a lot of time into this, and I think it has been worth the effort.

Restoration work is going to be hard to explain except in the general sense. There are too many scenarios out there that will dictate the restoration procedure. Let me clarify first that if someone has taken a small tree and made heading cuts on it at an early age, and has done this procedure year after year, and now the tree is a nice round ball, that again, is maintained year after year, I do not consider that indiscriminate topping. This can be considered an acceptable form of pruning. Pollarding is an acceptable from of pruning if the tree is trained and pruned correctly. I view this as converting a tree into a shrub. We have had clients in the past that wanted all the previous years growth taken off. If this is done on a yearly basis when the tree is dormant, it can continue to thrive. It just will never be the tree it was designed to be. It will be a big shrub! The same with pollarding.

If you are trying to do a restoration on a large tree that was topped years ago, and has re-grown to its normal height- here is what you do…generally. First check for heart rot and weakly attached limbs. Things that could be a hazard. Be careful of your tie-in points. These branches may not hold your weight. Next, chose the most dominate branches that are the most vigorous, and ones that have a good branch attachment. Work with these branches to maintain the new crown that has formed. Other branches that are suppressed, weak, poorly attached, rotten, and do not contribute to the crown formation- remove. Many times a topping cut will sprout too many new limbs, and some of these may need to be thinned out. Look at how they contribute to the crown, and decide from there. Be careful not to remove more that 25% of the foliage in any one year or you could cause more suckering (water-sprouts). I hope this helps.


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

clearance said:


> Always, or in some cases? Nothing wrong with clubbing baby seals, thier pelts provide income, they die quickly and are no where near endangered.
> 
> As far as topping trees, is it ok with you to windfirm trees in the bush? And I don't have a clue where you get this 40% removal, at least your down from half the tree in other posts. I will say it again, the tops are like 6"-8", not much on a tree over 100', little on a tree over 150'.
> 
> And now you finally admit, a dozen pages in, you have topped trees.........



clearance- you are right! this time . I thought it was illegal to club baby seals. Well, in Canada it is not. If it is legal, I have no problen with the fur trade. I do have a problem with the ruin of perfectly good trees- called topping (in case you had not noticed  ).

ARTICLE-

Today marks both the opening of this year's Canadian commercial seal hunt—the largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth—and the 25th anniversary of the European Union directive banning the trade in fur from newborn seals. 

Marcus Gyger 
Sealers will begin killing 275,000 baby seals today. 

The 1983 directive brought the Canadian seal hunt to a virtual standstill for a number of years. 

However, Canadian seal hunters now circumvent the law by killing the pups when they are just a few days older, allowing the legal trade of products from those baby seals in Europe.

"Today the slaughter of baby seals began again in Canada, largely because Europe continues to import seal products," stated Mark Glover, director of Humane Society International/UK. 

"A comprehensive ban on seal product trade in the European Union will stop the cruelty of commercial seal hunts and finally meet the expectations of the European Parliament and European citizens," Glover continued.

In 2006, the European Parliament passed a historic resolution calling on the European Commission to immediately draft legislation banning the trade in seal products, regardless of the age of the seal. 

The HSUS/Milani 
Sealers set sail for slaughter yesterday. 

The European Commission then conducted a study on the animal welfare aspects of commercial seal hunting, the results of which should provide the foundation for a ban. 

That study found, "in practice, seals are not always effectively killed", seals suffer "pain and distress" during Canada's commercial seal hunt, and "seals may be skinned while conscious."

"Just days ago, we stood on the ice floes with beautiful baby seals still covered in white fur. It is heartbreaking that the commercial seal hunt will begin today, and these pups will be brutally clubbed, shot and skinned to produce fashion items nobody needs," stated Rebecca Aldworth, director of Animal Programs for Humane Society International-Canada. 

"The European Union holds the power to right an international wrong by ending its trade in all seal products." 

Despite mounting pressure from around the world to end the commercial slaughter of seals, the Canadian government authorized seal hunters to kill 275,000 harp seals in 2008, one of the highest quotas in recent history. The slaughter officially opens at dawn on March 28. 

The HSUS 
A sealer kills a pup in the 2005 hunt. This is the 
largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth. 

A large delegation of sealing industry lobbyists traveled to Europe at the request of the Canadian government to lobby against the pending seal product ban. 

Recent polling shows the overwhelming majority of Canadians are opposed to the commercial seal hunt, and two-thirds of Canadians holding an opinion support European nations banning seal product trade. 

Facts

Canada's commercial seal hunt is the largest slaughter of marine mammals on Earth, with hundreds of thousands of seals killed annually.

In Canada, more than 95 percent of the seals killed each year are less than 3 months old. At the time of slaughter, many have yet to eat their first solid meal or take their first swim, and they are utterly defenseless against the hunters.

The seals are killed for their fur, which is sold in fashion markets in Europe, Russia and Asia.


Nations around the world have taken action to end their trade in seal products or announced their intention to do so, including Austria, Belgium, Croatia, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, the Netherlands, Panama, Slovenia and the United States.


In Canada, sealers are commercial fishermen, who earn only a small fraction of their annual incomes from killing seals during the off-season.


HSUS is calling upon the Canadian government to end the seal hunt by implementing a fair buyout of the sealing industry, compensating seal hunters for lost income as the slaughter is closed.


Since 2005, The HSUS has urged U.S. companies to avoid selling and serving Canadian seafood in order to convince that country's fishing industry to stop participating in and supporting the commercial seal hunt. Since the boycott began, the value of Canadian snow crab imports into the U.S. has decreased by more than $465 million.


Trade data shows the 2007 value of exports to the U.S. from the Newfoundland fishing and seafood preparation industries decreased by 44 percent compared to 2004, the last year prior to the boycott. For Canada as a whole, the value of exports to the U.S. from the fishing and seafood preparation industries decreased by 22 percent.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 3, 2008)

oldirty said:


> rubbing, crossing , and competing. branches growing vertically off the stem (but in the same breath, some of these can be pruned as if they were a tree themselve. do this to avoid the lion tail) and branches growing back up and to the inside of the tree.
> 
> dont forget to work the tips too. bring your polesaw with ya, maybe 2 poles. sometimes tough to get to the tips on a silver.
> 
> ...




Word brotha. It's a beautiful tree. Those big Silver's are some of my favorites to work in/on. I like to prune, just don't rush me, I like detail and perfection. I have a gooseneck trailer load ready to go in the sheds as we speak, murdered a 30" Silver across the road from this beaut today.


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I helped bid a job today for a teacher who wants his Silver Maple topped. It is a beauty, Probably in the 4 1/2' range with many leads. He wasn't there, so I couldn't talk to him in person.
> 
> We are recommending a shape and trim. Take some of the lower limbs and outside limbs to shape it up, then cut horizontal limbs (laterals?, crown cleaning?) on the inside. Also, there are some rotten stubs where old big cuts were made, I hope I can use these as my case to not top this tree. This should lighten it up, hopefully enough for him, because I don't want to top this beauty. The trunk is perfect, no splits, very solid and in perfect form, height for wind leverage isn't an issue, maybe in his mind.
> 
> ...



Your pruning recommendations sound very good. Remove the dead wood. As you are doing this check for decay and if it has compromised any large branch attachment. Maintain a natural leader on all branches. This will prevent excessive suckering. Remove crossed and rubbing limbs. This will enhance the structure. On any large horizontal limbs you might want lighten the ends of the branches and cut back to a lateral. The reason for this is that silver maples have a tendency to shed heavy horizontal limbs. Don't over thin. Good luck on this tree. It sounds like a beauty! Be sure to keep it that way!


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## juststumps (Oct 3, 2008)

BCMA said:


> clearance- you are right! this time . I thought it was illegal to club baby seals. Well, in Canada it is not. If it is legal, I have no problen with the fur trade. I do have a problem with the ruin of perfectly good trees- called topping (in case you had not noticed  ).
> 
> ARTICLE-
> 
> ...



AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH TREE TOPPING ????

(does this seal bikini , make my a$$ look fat ?? )


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## BCMA (Oct 3, 2008)

juststumps said:


> customer buys house,,, nasty tree next to it... wife is due any day now and the tree is over the new nursery..
> 
> customer is worried about this KNARLY tree falling on to his house.killing his kid...he asks this to 3 tree guys..
> 
> ...



All large trees pose a certain amount of risk. If you want zero risk, you do not have a tree. As simple as that. I have removed trees for this very reason. People wanted zero risk. The trees gave them zero benefit, only liability in their minds. These clients are few and far between. This is a rare case.


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## juststumps (Oct 3, 2008)

kennertree said:


> Better cut them all, those trees will kill someone. Better not walk outside, the sky could fall too.



weird thing is that they don't care if it falls in the yard.... they get a little worried when the house is involved , for some reason..... could be cause grass is cheap....


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## clearance (Oct 3, 2008)

juststumps said:


> AND THIS HAS TO DO WITH TREE TOPPING ????
> 
> (does this seal bikini , make my a$$ look fat ?? )



Not a lot, its just important for you uneducated people out there to get the correct idea, lest you go astray. Club, club, and club away.:deadhorse: :notrolls2:


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## juststumps (Oct 3, 2008)

BCMA said:


> All large trees pose a certain amount of risk. If you want zero risk, you do not have a tree. As simple as that. I have removed trees for this very reason. People wanted zero risk. The trees gave them zero benefit, only liability in their minds. These clients are few and far between. This is a rare case.



maybe where you live,, but where i'm working,, they could give a rats a$$ about a tree, verses the 1.5+ mil house ,,,or their kids !!!!!!!!!


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## Rftreeman (Oct 4, 2008)

BCMA said:


> All large trees pose a certain amount of risk. If you want zero risk, you do not have a tree. As simple as that. I have removed trees for this very reason. People wanted zero risk. The trees gave them zero benefit, only liability in their minds. These clients are few and far between. This is a rare case.


a rare case???? 85% of my work is removals due to the fact that the client fears it falling and tearing up something or worst. maybe the reason you think it is rare is because you try to talk them into keeping it and just working on it so they never call you back because why, YOU DON'T GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT..............


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## BCMA (Oct 4, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> a rare case???? 85% of my work is removals due to the fact that the client fears it falling and tearing up something or worst. maybe the reason you think it is rare is because you try to talk them into keeping it and just working on it so they never call you back because why, YOU DON'T GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT..............



Nearly all of our clients have a respect for their trees and landscape, and can see the benefit of preserving them.

What our client’s want is professionalism, expert advice, and quality service. There happens to be more options in tree work than removals. We first assess the tree for hazards and risk, and explore the options. The client always makes an informed final decision, and have the confidence that what they are doing is right. 

As far as people not calling us back- I have no idea what you are talking about. At this point, we have about 5,000 people working for us, and a large backlog of work.


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## treeseer (Oct 4, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> 85% of my work is removals due to the fact that the client fears it falling and tearing up something or worst. .


I live very close to you and 85% of my clients' fears are controlled by tree care that makes the tree safer.

Maybe if you get more practice and the right equipment you can do and sell pruning and cabling effectively.

All tree owners want is a reasonable level of safety. An arborist who can deliver that without removing or topping the tree can easily compete with the hacks.


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## BC WetCoast (Oct 4, 2008)

clearance said:


> Registered profesional foresters working with forest scientists developed this practice. It is paid for by the timber producers. The trees are mostly over 100', so a 6"-8" top is not cutting the tree in half. As you say, you have a lot to learn, as all the stuff you have put up here about courses, speeches, whatever, has nothing to do with treework way out in the bush.



Clearance, I chuckle at the irony here. You accept this prescription developed by a professional forester (me being one) but probably would have rejected it if it was developed by a Cert Arborist (me being one of those as well).

Just for the record, as a forester, I am looking at the health and welfare of the forest (as defined as a group of trees) and the ecosystem they grow in (ecosystem having temporal and spatial components) and have little concern for the individual tree. Along the edge of a newly exposed cutblock, I'm expecting a minimum 10% blowdown. Whereas as an arborist I'm concerned with the health and welfare of the individual tree.

I know this hijacks the thread slightly, but many of the people I read about who are slamming Cert Arborists also tend to be the ones who complain the unqualified, uninsured, operators. It seems to me that one of the ways to keep those people either out of the market or require them to meet the standard is to require all tree people to meet some form of certification. This doesn't necessarily have to be ISA, it could be trades qualification (such as Clearance's Utility Arborist trades qualification or plumber, electrician, pipefitter, etc), a technical qualification such as surveyors, medical techs or a professional qualification such as foresters, doctors, lawyers, dentists or accountants. As a professional forester, my title (professional forester) and practice (defined in legislation) is protected by provincial legislation (BC Foresters Act) and self regulated. An analogy would be to have governments legislate the ISA to be a governing body for the industry (instead of a voluntary body) and anybody undertaking tree work must be accredited by the ISA. 

IF YOU ARE GOING TO ARGUE THIS, ARGUE THE CONCEPT OF GOV'T IMPOSED CREDITATION AND NOT THE MERITS OF THE ISA. I only used it as an example.


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## BC WetCoast (Oct 4, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> a rare case???? 85% of my work is removals due to the fact that the client fears it falling and tearing up something or worst. maybe the reason you think it is rare is because you try to talk them into keeping it and just working on it so they never call you back because why, YOU DON'T GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT..............



Most of the municipalities around here have a fear of loss of the urban forest and the benefits they provide. Most of them have tree cutting bylaws. In the City of Vancouver, all tree removals larger than 8" require a permit. All trees removed require either a 1 for 1 replacement (for trees of the same mature size) or a 2 for 1 replacement (for trees that are significantly smaller).


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## ropensaddle (Oct 4, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Most of the municipalities around here have a fear of loss of the urban forest and the benefits they provide. Most of them have tree cutting bylaws. In the City of Vancouver, all tree removals larger than 8" require a permit. All trees removed require either a 1 for 1 replacement (for trees of the same mature size) or a 2 for 1 replacement (for trees that are significantly smaller).



Yeah, then two hurricanes come in back to back and guess
what trees fail. So then; if you told the customer we can trim
for windsail, install cables to anzi guidelines and the tree fails
and injures their little girl, then is; anzi responsible or the cable
manufacturer or the arborist? I bet my business the arborist is 
going to take the hit because he was there and did not take
this tree out.


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## clearance (Oct 4, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> Clearance, I chuckle at the irony here. You accept this prescription developed by a professional forester (me being one) but probably would have rejected it if it was developed by a Cert Arborist (me being one of those as well).
> 
> Just for the record, as a forester, I am looking at the health and welfare of the forest (as defined as a group of trees) and the ecosystem they grow in (ecosystem having temporal and spatial components) and have little concern for the individual tree. Along the edge of a newly exposed cutblock, I'm expecting a minimum 10% blowdown. Whereas as an arborist I'm concerned with the health and welfare of the individual tree.
> 
> ...



I said windfirming was developed by foresters. That does not mean I have a lot of respect for rpfs. Some of them are ok, but what they did in the past was really cool, now it seems the favorite activity of many of them is to drive around, and around, and around in green pickups. Have you ever read the book by Ian Mahood-Three Men and a Forester? He lays out what foresters did in the past and how they have become, for the most part, pen pushers. Interesting book, in many ways.


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## BCMA (Oct 4, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah, then two hurricanes come in back to back and guess
> what trees fail. So then; if you told the customer we can trim
> for windsail, install cables to anzi guidelines and the tree fails
> and injures their little girl, then is; anzi responsible or the cable
> ...



You will not be held liable just because you do not remove or top every tree you work on. You may be liable if you don't operate with the laws of business operation, or by providing tree work that is not according to industry standards.


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## clearance (Oct 4, 2008)

BCMA said:


> You will not be held liable just because you do not remove or top every tree you work on. You may be liable if you don't operate with the laws of business operation, or by providing tree work that is not according to industry standards.


But you will be morally liable when the p.o.s. tree Treeseer and BCMA talked you into saving instead of sawing down comes crashing into the little girls house. All this b.s. makes me sick, save the trees, save the trees, look, new trees come along all the time, for f---- sake:monkey: .


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## Rftreeman (Oct 5, 2008)

BCMA said:


> Nearly all of our clients have a respect for their trees and landscape, and can see the benefit of preserving them.
> 
> What our client’s want is professionalism, expert advice, and quality service. There happens to be more options in tree work than removals. We first assess the tree for hazards and risk, and explore the options. The client always makes an informed final decision, and have the confidence that what they are doing is right.
> 
> As far as people not calling us back- I have no idea what you are talking about. At this point, we have about 5,000 people working for us, and a large backlog of work.


so who do you work for anyway, must be a big company? My clients make informed final decisions also and we don't care how many people work at the same place as you or how much backlog work you have, hell we all have that right now.



treeseer said:


> I live very close to you and 85% of my clients' fears are controlled by tree care that makes the tree safer.
> 
> Maybe if you get more practice and the right equipment you can do and sell pruning and cabling effectively.
> 
> All tree owners want is a reasonable level of safety. An arborist who can deliver that without removing or topping the tree can easily compete with the hacks.


so now you're saying if we REMOVE trees we are a hack, if a client calls me and wants a tree removed then that's what they get, I'm not going to waste their and my time by trying to sell them what's "right" in your or any one else's book.



BC WetCoast said:


> Most of the municipalities around here have a fear of loss of the urban forest and the benefits they provide. Most of them have tree cutting bylaws. In the City of Vancouver, all tree removals larger than 8" require a permit. All trees removed require either a 1 for 1 replacement (for trees of the same mature size) or a 2 for 1 replacement (for trees that are significantly smaller).


we don't need permits to remove trees here unless it is in a historical district but if I need one they are no problem to get.



ropensaddle said:


> Yeah, then two hurricanes come in back to back and guess
> what trees fail. So then; if you told the customer we can trim
> for windsail, install cables to anzi guidelines and the tree fails
> and injures their little girl, then is; anzi responsible or the cable
> ...


I couldn't agree more, the arborist would most likely in up in court.


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## ropensaddle (Oct 5, 2008)

BCMA said:


> You will not be held liable just because you do not remove or top every tree you work on. You may be liable if you don't operate with the laws of business operation, or by providing tree work that is not according to industry standards.



Respectfully I told you I have not topped a tree except for powerlines
or views. I resist on views but customer sets that stage. I cma by writing
in my estimate my recommendations, if they chose different I do it. I don't
have five thousand employee's, just me that's right me my wife some days
and plenty equipment, does that make me a hack in your view to be bullied
out of business by gov intervention?


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## Climbing Cutter (Oct 5, 2008)

The only thing worse than topping is fascist treehuggers that want more government regulation. KEEP AMERICA THE LAND OF THE FREE. :censored:


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 5, 2008)

Climbing Cutter said:


> The only thing worse than topping is fascist treehuggers that want more government regulation. KEEP AMERICA THE LAND OF THE FREE. :censored:



I couldn't have said it better.


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## lxt (Oct 7, 2008)

Mike Barcaskey said:


> that is real funny right there, coming from a guy who used the word "Certified" in his newspaper ad, but yet has no certifications




Dear Mike.... I am a certified Line clearance tree trimmer/tree trimmer!! by the dept of labor!! perhaps you should stick to trapping!! wonder why state park service uses my company and not yours?? think about it!


LXT................


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## jrietkerk (Oct 11, 2008)

Climbing Cutter said:


> The only thing worse than topping is fascist treehuggers that want more government regulation. KEEP AMERICA THE LAND OF THE FREE. :censored:



I'd say that fascist land developers are the worst of all. Here's a scenario that plays out in both our countries; a neighbourhood has 2 or 5 acre treed lots, or even smaller. They are part of a greenbelt, or development permit area. A developer comes along, applies for a variance to subdivide, and put in several houses on each lot. The community is skeptical, but local government allows the developer to go ahead with conditions - many key trees are to be left, and protected during construction. After all, when the community was planned, the lots were left big and treed for 'green infrastructure'. (trees make oxygen, moderate climate and water table etc). The developer made a strong argument for the variance, appealing to people's property rights at community hearings - "I own the land, I can do what I want" Some people and politicians are probably paid off or intimidated. So it begins. Turns out, the municipality can't monitor the construction enough, and the developer really doesn't care, so the trees get demo'ed during construction. Many extra trees are removed to make life easier for the construction crews to keep costs down. Any intervention by the community or local government is met with evasiveness and intimidation by the developer. They are mature old trees, so don't show drastic signs of decline until several years later. The developer sells for big bucks and moves on, because he doesn't live there. The houses look great at first, framed by nice old trees. The new homeowners eventually want the trees removed, but are told they need to pay for a permit, and replace the trees, on their own property! They flip out! They don't understand that the developer screwed them around by not protecting the trees in the first place, and the local government was co-opted by its own electorate through the developer's rhetoric. So the trees are removed as hazards, and the replacement trees the bylaw demands are neglected out of spite by the homeowner, or are replaced with dwarf conifers. Again, local government can't regulate the replacements. So the greenbelt slowly disappears, and the green infrastructure is gone, and the entire look of the community has changed. Property values begin to decline. The bats and swallows that used to live in the trees disappear, so the residents are overrun with mosquitos, and start spraying everything in site. The soil level degrades after the stumps and roots of the once protected trees are removed and sod is installed with irrigation. And lots of fertilizer The local trout slowly disappear. . . Apply this scenario across a continent, or several continents, throw in some big agriculture and some Portuguese and Spanish, and you get what we have now - Polar Bears eating garbage from a landfill. Is there room for some regulation anywhere in this picture? 
Sorry, this was a tread about topping. We are all on the same page probably - sometimes its the only answer. But its a stretch to start slinging the 'C' word around when the concept of a tree protection bylaw comes up. 
So, to avoid further rants, if any tree in this scenario is near a powerline or over a little girls bedroom, it has to go, no question. Only a CUA will do the work near the high voltage because they are the only ones qualified. No one will tell them how to do it.


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## treeseer (Oct 12, 2008)

jrietkerk said:


> I'd say that fascist land developers are the worst of all. Here's a scenario that plays out in both our countries;


Good post; happens here all the time.


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## S Mc (Oct 13, 2008)

jrietkerk said:


> I'd say that fascist land developers are the worst of all. Here's a scenario that plays out in both our countries;




And it plays out here too. How frightening is this? This is going on all over and no one seems to be able to see the long range picture.

Sylvia


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## masterarbor (Dec 18, 2008)

Call it a crown reduction and you'll avoid all of the persecution.


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## stihljixxer (Dec 18, 2008)

Jlarnard, unfortunately you most likely aren't exagerating thats the sad part I know in my area (PA) the elderly have a thing with "needing their trees topped" I could tell the old timer every reason not to top the tree till I was blue in my face and it won't make a difference. Also the problem in my area is that we have a large number of people who think they know how to use a chain saw so they figure they should make a dollar doing it so they will top trees until the day they die because they just don't have a clue, the worst part is that while they do the topping they usually are wearing spurs. :jawdrop:


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## masterarbor (Dec 18, 2008)

Well if you're gonna cut its head off, what's a few hundred spike holes?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> Well if you're gonna cut its head off, what's a few hundred spike holes?



Large lenticels


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## Little Monkey (Dec 20, 2008)

i once saw a ( and i use this term very loosely ) "tree crew " topping a tree useing machettes and for the smaller higher branches they sent up a kid of about 12,, they didnt even have ladders let alone ropes and harness :jawdrop: :jawdrop:


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## lostcoastland (Dec 21, 2008)

*Topping*

I'm somewhat of a novice but from what i've seen tree's that have been topped comeback twice as strong. I see alot of corn cobbed redwood spars( topped and limbed that just wont die. of course it really depends on the tree. I think most of it depends on followup because sometime a rat's nest form at the top from rapid growth from the cut. If you thin these out after they grow back in you can get some really cool looking bonzai's. A tree that has been topped is going to be sturdier than a super tall spindley tree. any alternative to just cutting the tree down is good.


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## ozzy42 (Dec 21, 2008)

Topping is very prevailent in my area. As others have said usually at the request of elderly HO.you cant convince them otherwise.And lets face it ;we all have to eat.
It does sicken me to see it done to old oaks,but more times than not it is one of the many many exotic,and sometimes invasive species that we have in abbundance here.These things grow so rapidly here ,i say no big loss.
Yes i know it weakens the tree ,but most do well except the new growth,but again,most of those get topped again before they are real hazards.

Like i said ,I don't really like the way they look when topped,...but it does belong to the HO,and the decision is theirs.


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## Bermie (Dec 22, 2008)

Little Monkey said:


> i once saw a ( and i use this term very loosely ) "tree crew " topping a tree useing machettes and for the smaller higher branches they sent up a kid of about 12,, they didnt even have ladders let alone ropes and harness :jawdrop: :jawdrop:



Dude, that happens all the time here...or a chainsaw in one hand, standing in the fork of the tree...cut where you can...

Drives me MAD!!


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## soiset (Dec 28, 2008)

*Topping and Integrity*

I've been asked to do it, and I've always refused, and done my best to educate. But I've never been close to starving, or even particularly close to missing a mortgage payment. Sure I could have used the money, but I take a gamble that people will prefer to hire someone who will not compromise his integrity for a buck, and that they may even tell their associates about that honest tree guy.

But again, I've never been truly desperate for cash, and I've never had children (not counting my dogs) in danger of an empty cupboard. My integrity is not priceless - I'm sure. So I can fully appreciate how some of you guys may have been looking starvation in the face, and bit the bullet so your kids could have a plate of beans and some shoes.

The comments about "communism" regarding the enforcement of standards are not only way out of line, but show a grotesque ignorance of political systems. I am a licensed civil and structural engineer. We have a fully enforceable code of ethics that fills a book. On top of that, we have volumes upon volumes (upon volumes) of design codes. The process for becoming licensed is long and arduous, taking a minimum of 8 years, but usually closer to 10 or 12, and is completed by a grueling 8 hour test. You may call that "communist," but society calls that "professional." It is how we get to use a pretty rubber stamp that says "Professional Engineer" on it, and when that stamp gets put on paper, it is really, really serious. 

You don't have a stamp for tree work, all you have is your reputation. I recognize that I am speaking from a position of privilege, and that some of you may be a day away from begging on the streets, but if you are not, topping trees is an unjustifiable disservice to your own integrity, and to the reputation of your chosen PROFESSION.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 28, 2008)

soiset said:


> I've been asked to do it, and I've always refused, and done my best to educate. But I've never been close to starving, or even particularly close to missing a mortgage payment. Sure I could have used the money, but I take a gamble that people will prefer to hire someone who will not compromise his integrity for a buck, and that they may even tell their associates about that honest tree guy.
> 
> But again, I've never been truly desperate for cash, and I've never had children (not counting my dogs) in danger of an empty cupboard. My integrity is not priceless - I'm sure. So I can fully appreciate how some of you guys may have been looking starvation in the face, and bit the bullet so your kids could have a plate of beans and some shoes.
> 
> ...



I have cursed a many engineer in my day, they can screw up a good horse.
I can't believe the lengths they go to make lives miserable for folks jmo.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 28, 2008)

soiset said:


> I've been asked to do it, and I've always refused, and done my best to educate. But I've never been close to starving, or even particularly close to missing a mortgage payment. Sure I could have used the money, but I take a gamble that people will prefer to hire someone who will not compromise his integrity for a buck, and that they may even tell their associates about that honest tree guy.
> 
> But again, I've never been truly desperate for cash, and I've never had children (not counting my dogs) in danger of an empty cupboard. My integrity is not priceless - I'm sure. So I can fully appreciate how some of you guys may have been looking starvation in the face, and bit the bullet so your kids could have a plate of beans and some shoes.
> 
> ...


so you got a rubber stamp that says you are a pro........I can get one of those from vistaprint.com for free.........lol


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## soiset (Dec 28, 2008)

Rftreeman said:


> so you got a rubber stamp that says you are a pro........I can get one of those from vistaprint.com for free.........lol



You're right, you can. And it has been done.


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## soiset (Dec 28, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I have cursed a many engineer in my day, they can screw up a good horse.
> I can't believe the lengths they go to make lives miserable for folks jmo.



I've never been accused of screwing up a good horse, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even know how to go about that. Some engineers are not so interested in getting the job completed smoothly as they are in their sense of authority - they make things harder on those of us who really sympathize with contractors. Is there a parallel here?


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## Labman (Dec 28, 2008)

I think topped trees are ugly. I was pleased when I learned it was a bad practice. Has anybody tried showing the home owner a picture of a tree you did right? 

Unfortunately, I doubt if I will live long enough to see topping die out.


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## stihljixxer (Dec 28, 2008)

Topping is one thing when you know its not right but you gotta get the job to make ends meet. lets face it you gotta do what you gotta do and ill praise any person for that. I'd sooner see a tree hacked up before someones family goes hungry but the problem is when people just aren't informed and do it because they somehow think its an acceptable practice. All I know is that most tree guys ecspecially the misinformed ones in my area are all running brand new rigs and the best of everything thats when I hit the roof.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 28, 2008)

soiset said:


> I've never been accused of screwing up a good horse, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even know how to go about that. Some engineers are not so interested in getting the job completed smoothly as they are in their sense of authority - they make things harder on those of us who really sympathize with contractors. Is there a parallel here?



Take a long look at flippy caps! If that is not a good enough example
take a peak under the hoods of the nowaday auto. They make them
as hard to work on as they possibly can. They will go to g-rate lengths
to engineer it to last just to the warranty period and then make it too
hard to work on. I am keeping my sixty model and two seventy model
trucks just for that reason.


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## yooper (Dec 28, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Take a long look at flippy caps! If that is not a good enough example
> take a peak under the hoods of the nowaday auto. They make them
> as hard to work on as they possibly can. They will go to g-rate lengths
> to engineer it to last just to the warranty period and then make it too
> ...



"flippy caps" where definitely made by an engineer sitting at a desk saying to himself "Wow I am a genius what a great idea, I wonder why these retards that run these thing never thought of this"


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## ropensaddle (Dec 28, 2008)

yooper said:


> "flippy caps" where definitely made by an engineer sitting at a desk saying to himself "Wow I am a genius what a great idea, I wonder why these retards that run these thing never thought of this"



Because the scre? never broke


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## lostcoastland (Jan 6, 2009)

*flippy caps*

are you talking about the stihl flippy caps on newer saw's. if so , ya you gotta make sure those suckers lock in so you dont spill out a full tank of fuel. and you can only fill up the bar oil 6/7's of the way. There kinda nice once you get used to them though allthough, when i go to adjust the chain i can never find a wrench! anbody ever use the flippy cap chain tensoner, it seem's like a good idea though i dont know handy of a society we would be by eliminating all our tools


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## ozzy42 (Jan 6, 2009)

lostcoastland said:


> are you talking about the stihl flippy caps on newer saw's. if so , ya you gotta make sure those suckers lock in so you dont spill out a full tank of fuel. and you can only fill up the bar oil 6/7's of the way. There kinda nice once you get used to them though allthough, when i go to adjust the chain i can never find a wrench! anbody ever use the flippy cap chain tensoner, it seem's like a good idea though i dont know handy of a society we would be by eliminating all our tools


 

I hate those new stihl caps myself.Iv'e not been fortunate enough to have the gas spill ,it's allways the oil and it usually happens only when i get it clipped to saddle.GlugGLUG, right down the pants leg,and onto the boot.

At least the gas would evaporate,if i didn't combust first.


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## yooper (Jan 6, 2009)

lostcoastland said:


> are you talking about the stihl flippy caps on newer saw's. if so , ya you gotta make sure those suckers lock in so you dont spill out a full tank of fuel. and you can only fill up the bar oil 6/7's of the way. There kinda nice once you get used to them though allthough, when i go to adjust the chain i can never find a wrench! anbody ever use the flippy cap chain tensoner, it seem's like a good idea though i dont know handy of a society we would be by eliminating all our tools



the chain tensioner is even worse...."junk I say junk" my wife has a smaller saw with one on it. the oil caps are really bad once it dips below 10°F the oil gets to sticky and the inside of the cap wont turn right. have to do it manually allot of the time....gotta love oil on the fingers when sticking em back into the gloves!


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