# Oregonians, we (normal people) need to be heard too.



## Burvol (Nov 15, 2008)

Oregon is a beautiful, ecologically diverse state, perhaps the most of all. It's economy, history and landscape have all been shaped by timber, farming, fishing, ect. Now days the state is full of people who want to put it behind glass...they think we should all live in the city,and view nature from behind a fence. Check out this girl, not surprising, just one of many...http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20081115/NEWS/811150320/1001

This #### makes me puke. Like she did something worthwhile. These people are so out of touch, it's crazy. What's even nuttier, is she is on an experimental housing committee that "provides sustainable" housing to poor people. They still frame the damn things with wood. She should be thrown into a skid trail and ran over....sorry, no apologies at all!!!

I'm seriously thinking about trying to gather some people for the next one of these demonstrations, I'll keep all the ASer's informed if we can all make it.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 15, 2008)

its pretty sad that people are so concerned over logging that they fail to notice real problems that we face everyday, rising numbers of homeless people, increased crime rates, the failing economy, mabey if they put a little more effort into real problems we could solve our problems, instead they do this? smart.
BTW i think everything you said about oregon can be said about maine, cept for the crazy "green" people running around never seen those around here. thank god.


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## Burvol (Nov 15, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> its pretty sad that people are so concerned over logging that they fail to notice real problems that we face everyday, rising numbers of homeless people, increased crime rates, the failing economy, mabey if they put a little more effort into real problems we could solve our problems, instead they do this? smart.
> BTW i think everything you said about oregon can be said about maine, cept for the crazy "green" people running around never seen those around here. thank god.



They are completly out of touch. Like you said, imagine if they put that much effort into something that could really change people's lives. Of course, as a logger it makes me mad, but I don't like their whole approach to our State. They think they have all the right answers. I could respect them if they used their hands instead of toilet paper, lived outside in stick shelters, and used no electricity made by our dams.


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## gink595 (Nov 15, 2008)

I think it's ironic tha tshe used a "wooden" platform to rest on, using a tree product for comfortability, that seems a tad selfish. I bet she lives in a wood studed house also. Someone ought to protest that she lives in a house with wood products.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 15, 2008)

Someone has to keep the evil loggers in check dern tree murderous
vermin they are :monkey:






































just kidding


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## Burvol (Nov 15, 2008)

gink595 said:


> I think it's ironic tha tshe used a "wooden" platform to rest on, using a tree product for comfortability, that seems a tad selfish. I bet she lives in a wood studed house also. Someone ought to protest that she lives in a house with wood products.



She also used PVC for framing too. Anyone have a clue on how many chemicals are in that stuff??? I'm not against it, just pointing it out.


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## forestryworks (Nov 15, 2008)

i'll fly up to protest

we should block a protest by showing up in full force, 
hard hat, suspenders, dressed to work
and block the protest speaker's view of his or her audience
or block their "interview" with the news people

people forget timber built our country

idiots, plain and simple


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## Burvol (Nov 15, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> i'll fly up to protest
> 
> we should block a protest by showing up in full force,
> hard hat, suspenders, dressed to work
> ...



I just want to show up with a sign that says no more than "What do you wipe with, and what do you live in?"


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## forestryworks (Nov 15, 2008)

i like that one guy's sign... "stop wasting our precious resources" :monkey: 

NOT using our resources is wasting them

using our resources is part of being responsible, especially when it comes to a renewable resource such as trees


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## gink595 (Nov 15, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> i like that one guy's sign... "stop wasting our precious resources" :monkey:
> 
> NOT using our resources is wasting them
> 
> using our resources is part of being responsible, especially when it comes to a renewable resource such as trees



LOLOL, Another observation, look what the handles of those signs are made out of. You talk about a waste of resources


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 15, 2008)

thats what bugs me. They would rather see a tree sit in a forest untill it rots into nothing rather than be used to make something. it would be like planting a field of corn and leaving it and not harvesting, why bother.


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## slowp (Nov 15, 2008)

440% of zero is still zero. She didn't give the original figure of what is cut now. That's how they do things, make a huge figure of nothing. I worked on a forest in Wisconsin that was second in timber volume sold for National Forests. The ONLY reason it was second was that there wasn't much being cut out here in the west. These people need to be faced with the proper figures. I have saved a Dilbert Cartoon. It shows Alice, doing a powerpoint with DUH to the 100th power. She is saying, it is obviously correct because I used math. 

I think our whole forest now struggles to put up 30 million board feet. That could be increased easily by 400% and still have healthy rivers and such.
What a crock. Put me down for your protest. I can do math.  If I have a calculator.

Here's THEIR website.http://www.risingtidenorthamerica.org/wordpress/category/rising-tide-cascadia/

I think Earth First branched off into Cascadia Rising, the latter being the dirtbags who sat in the trees and threw poop on people below and got the sale cancelled, and now it looks like Cascadia Rising is now branching off. 
I like the idea of protesting by having a street dance. Pretty scary that!


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## Billy_Bob (Nov 15, 2008)

He he he... Actually I KNOW a couple of these types of people... What they call hippies around here. And you are right, they are very much out of touch with the real world.

One lady was totally convinced the 2009 digital TV converter box switch-over was a conspiracy by the government to listen in on people and there were listening devices in each "converter box". It took me an hour to explain to her why this was not so and why this was not technically possible. (Basically you can buy these for cash and they would have no idea who bought which unit. And there are too many people involved with the manufacture of these units to keep such a secret.)

I actually went camping with these two and they stayed at my house for a night. That same night a logger friend came over and it was quite funny! The lady did not care much for the logger and the logger did not care for her one little bit. I had fun just watching the show! At one point she asked him what he did for work and he told her he cut down trees then glared at her with wide open eyes. You should have seen the look of HORROR in her face!

Oh the humanity!

Anyway we went camping and they did not know a thing about camping (city people). So I had to do everything basically. Then they didn't want to visit with, talk to, or meet other people camping next to us! I thought that to be quite odd. I like doing this myself, I've met some interesting characters. Actually the lady wanted to put her tent in the camping spot next to us so no one could camp there! I was not pleased about her being so selfish! You just don't do that kind of thing (in my book!).

Anyway I know another lady who is a "country girl type" all the way. Quite a rough type who will not put up with any nonsense. I want her to meet this hippie girl. Sparks will fly for sure!

Since camping these two have wanted to go camping with me again... Only they wanted to go when there was tons of snow up on the mountain! Well that is not my idea of fun and I told them I will be happy to go camping in the summer only. (They don't seem to know what a weather report is, nor do they know how dangerous getting stuck in the snow can be!)

So anyway these people can learn, but you better have several hours for each and every one of them!

Tell them to stop using toilet paper if they want to save the trees...


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## slowp (Nov 15, 2008)

A friend of mine gave them the nickname Chia Pets. You figure it out.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 15, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> He he he... Actually I KNOW a couple of these types of people... What they call hippies around here. And you are right, they are very much out of touch with the real world.
> 
> One lady was totally convinced the 2009 digital TV converter box switch-over was a conspiracy by the government to listen in on people and there were listening devices in each "converter box". It took me an hour to explain to her why this was not so and why this was not technically possible. (Basically you can buy these for cash and they would have no idea who bought which unit. And there are too many people involved with the manufacture of these units to keep such a secret.)
> 
> ...



Ohhhhhh billy bob they are listening watching just like big brother
in 1984 thought police and all you just have to keep an open mind.
:Eye: :Eye: I can boom over to a nearby house with a transistor
radio the old school type by tuning between frequency's if you
have your tube on I can hear everything you say!!!!!!


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## redprospector (Nov 15, 2008)

Burvol said:


> Oregon is a beautiful, ecologically diverse state, perhaps the most of all. It's economy, history and landscape have all been shaped by timber, farming, fishing, ect. Now days the state is full of people who want to put it behind glass...they think we should all live in the city,and view nature from behind a fence. Check out this girl, not surprising, just one of many...http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20081115/NEWS/811150320/1001
> 
> This #### makes me puke. Like she did something worthwhile. These people are so out of touch, it's crazy. What's even nuttier, is she is on an experimental housing committee that "provides sustainable" housing to poor people. They still frame the damn things with wood. She should be thrown into a skid trail and ran over....sorry, no apologies at all!!!
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about trying to gather some people for the next one of these demonstrations, I'll keep all the ASer's informed if we can all make it.



I know what you're talking about. I had a guy tell me that we should all leave our homes in the mountains and move to the cities so that areas that began as wildernes could return to their natural state. I told him we couldn't move to the cities because they had been wildernes too. The whole earth was wildernes before we came on the scene.
At least you guy's haven't been infiltrated by Holywood. Those people are friggin idiot's.

Andy


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## Tree Sling'r (Nov 15, 2008)

No worries Burvol, fire seasons the past 5 years have been worse than ever. The Green Movement is gonna bite themsleves. The fuel in our forests are more dense than ever. It won't be long and all of our precious resources will be black.
Maybe then they will realize that Mother Nature is a garden that does indeed need to be weeded and maintained in order to prosper.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 16, 2008)

Tree Sling'r said:


> No worries Burvol, fire seasons the past 5 years have been worse than ever. The Green Movement is gonna bite themsleves. The fuel in our forests are more dense than ever. It won't be long and all of our precious resources will be black.
> Maybe then they will realize that Mother Nature is a garden that does indeed need to be weeded and maintained in order to prosper.



This is a much more constructive argument than "hey, you wipe your ass with paper, right?!?"

To go back 120 years and look at the recorded figures for numbers of acres burned and the propensity by topography and fuel type, you'll see that catastrophic fire in *dominant overstory forest types* is rapidly increasing.

One factor a lot of people leave out of the equation is the use of Anthropogenic fire by native Americans up through the early 20th century. The natives knew when and where to burn, and in some ways they had better fire management practices than the modern white man. Suppression of fire and the importation of foreign disease and insects has led to massive fuels build-up in modern forests. What's the answer? Mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem (in most forest types).


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## Spotted Owl (Nov 16, 2008)

Burvol said:


> I'm seriously thinking about trying to gather some people for the next one of these demonstrations, I'll keep all the ASer's informed if we can all make it.




If you looking for someone to march I'm with ya. I can be in Salem in just about an hour. What have you been thinking about as far as this goes. Or are you just wanting to get the leaf eaters all spun up? Thats fun too. 

Remember the illegal protest in P town about the fur store? Some of us went up there and got the seal savers upset when we brought out our traps and skinning troughs and had an actual demonstration of how trapping should be done from start to finish. We got spit on and stuff thrown at us, you name it. But we were legal, we had permits and zones on where we could and could not be, and stayed with in those boundries. Lots of folks walking by were very interested and wanted to learn more about what really happens in trapping and how it worked once they figured out it is not done they way the adds and media have it portrayed. 

Truth portrayed in taste and with knowing demonsrtation, and carried out with taste and respect can sink in a long ways to those that don't know about the subject. It can even sway opinions that have been made by false propaganda.

So ya I'm with ya. Lets do what we can



Owl


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## RandyMac (Nov 16, 2008)

You-all remember this....
http://www.monitor.net/monitor/headwaters/riggsvideo.html

Hippies for hire are a plauge.


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## Burvol (Nov 16, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> This is a much more constructive argument than "hey, you wipe your ass with paper, right?!?"
> 
> To go back 120 years and look at the recorded figures for numbers of acres burned and the propensity by topography and fuel type, you'll see that catastrophic fire in *dominant overstory forest types* is rapidly increasing.
> 
> One factor a lot of people leave out of the equation is the use of Anthropogenic fire by native Americans up through the early 20th century. The natives knew when and where to burn, and in some ways they had better fire management practices than the modern white man. Suppression of fire and the importation of foreign disease and insects has led to massive fuels build-up in modern forests. What's the answer? Mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem (in most forest types).



Well excuse me Jacob. I forgot your the wise old sage here in the logging forum. Please don't think of me as a caveman, one with a college degree. I guess you want to reason with the people, I have little desire to do much more of that. I have have reasoned and reasoned and defended logging till I'm blue in the face. It doesn't work with extremists. Sorry, it doesn't. These are the people who are beyond reasoning. Sometimes the basic, bottom lines are the ones that matter the most. I understand your point, and know where your coiming from, but please don't stab at me personally, when I'm ####ing pissed about my livliehood here. Thanks.


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## slowp (Nov 16, 2008)

I feel evil, but whenever I have to take a group out, I pounce on the most extreme one and ask her to please explain what is meant by, restoration. She won't get specific. These folks are trained in what to say and what works. They have talking points, they are trained in how to be arrested, you'll sometimes find workshops listed on their websites. I went to an Earth First recruiting meeting back in 1990 and was told to leave saws alone but go try to monkey wrench every feller buncher we found, because don't you know, THEY RIP GIANT REDWOODS OUT OF THE GROUND ROOTS AND ALL. I never saw that machine! AND THEY ARE OWNED BY EVIL GIANT CORPORATIONS.
About then I coudn't contain myself and started laughing and was asked to leave. I was ready to, that floor was hard to sit on.

Sounds and looks like that group is a bunch of college kids who have not yet been crushed by the fist of doom. Unfortunately, they get the publicity and the reporters don't know anything about forestry ooops natural resources either. Maybe they can get jobs as arborists when they grow up because they know how to climb.


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## forestryworks (Nov 16, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> This is a much more constructive argument than "hey, you wipe your ass with paper, right?!?"
> 
> To go back 120 years and look at the recorded figures for numbers of acres burned and the propensity by topography and fuel type, you'll see that catastrophic fire in *dominant overstory forest types* is rapidly increasing.
> 
> One factor a lot of people leave out of the equation is the use of Anthropogenic fire by native Americans up through the early 20th century. The natives knew when and where to burn, and in some ways they had better fire management practices than the modern white man. Suppression of fire and the importation of foreign disease and insects has led to massive fuels build-up in modern forests. What's the answer? Mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem (in most forest types).



good point



slowp said:


> I feel evil, but whenever I have to take a group out, I pounce on the most extreme one and ask her to please explain what is meant by, restoration. She won't get specific. These folks are trained in what to say and what works. They have talking points, they are trained in how to be arrested, you'll sometimes find workshops listed on their websites. I went to an Earth First recruiting meeting back in 1990 and was told to leave saws alone but go try to monkey wrench every feller buncher we found, because don't you know, THEY RIP GIANT REDWOODS OUT OF THE GROUND ROOTS AND ALL. I never saw that machine! AND THEY ARE OWNED BY EVIL GIANT CORPORATIONS.
> About then I coudn't contain myself and started laughing and was asked to leave. I was ready to, that floor was hard to sit on.
> 
> Sounds and looks like that group is a bunch of college kids who have not yet been crushed by the fist of doom. Unfortunately, they get the publicity and the reporters don't know anything about forestry ooops natural resources either. *Maybe they can get jobs as arborists when they grow up because they know how to climb.*



haha


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## Jacob J. (Nov 16, 2008)

Burvol said:


> Well excuse me Jacob. I forgot your the wise old sage here in the logging forum. Please don't think of me as a caveman, one with a college degree. I guess you want to reason with the people, I have little desire to do much more of that. I have have reasoned and reasoned and defended logging till I'm blue in the face. It doesn't work with extremists. Sorry, it doesn't. These are the people who are beyond reasoning. Sometimes the basic, bottom lines are the ones that matter the most. I understand your point, and know where your coiming from, but please don't stab at me personally, when I'm ####ing pissed about my livliehood here. Thanks.



I didn't stab at you, if you read through my post you'll see I'm pro-logging and re-introduction of fire into the ecosytem (both as a contract timber cutter and government fire manager myself). My point is, the whole argument about wood products consumerism is moot- everyone uses wood products. 

You don't need to waste your time arguing with extremists, you're not going to turn the tide by trying to convince a few people here and there. You will turn the tide however, by continuing to do things that you're probably already doing:

1.- Harvest timber products in a conscientious, safe, efficient manner.

2.- Present yourself as a professional and act accordingly.

3.- Seek alternatives to wasteful and unnecessarily dangerous situations and practices.

4.- Educate people who don't know of or have an insight into our industry. (That doesn't mean via TV programs that over-dramatize what goes on in the woods).

A clean logging sale whether it's clear-cut, commercial thinning, or a matrix will do a lot to convince the laymen and people who are on the fence about the wood products industry.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 16, 2008)

slowp said:


> I feel evil, but whenever I have to take a group out, I pounce on the most extreme one and ask her to please explain what is meant by, restoration. She won't get specific. *These folks are trained in what to say and what works.* They have talking points, they are trained in how to be arrested, you'll sometimes find workshops listed on their websites. I went to an Earth First recruiting meeting back in 1990 and was told to leave saws alone but go try to monkey wrench every feller buncher we found, because don't you know, THEY RIP GIANT REDWOODS OUT OF THE GROUND ROOTS AND ALL. I never saw that machine! AND THEY ARE OWNED BY EVIL GIANT CORPORATIONS.
> About then I coudn't contain myself and started laughing and was asked to leave. I was ready to, that floor was hard to sit on.
> 
> Sounds and looks like that group is a bunch of college kids who have not yet been crushed by the fist of doom. Unfortunately, they get the publicity and the reporters don't know anything about forestry ooops natural resources either. Maybe they can get jobs as arborists when they grow up because they know how to climb.



This is it, exactly. Like training a dog to roll-over.


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## mile9socounty (Nov 16, 2008)

If yall need another person to show up at the Capitol. Count me in. I ain't got nothing better to do now. I agree with you Jacob about the fuel density in our forests. Hell I can personally vouch from some of the fires I've been on and units we have thinned/fuels reduction.


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## smokechase II (Nov 17, 2008)

*May I suggest*

*"One lady was totally convinced the 2009 digital TV converter box switch-over was a conspiracy by the government to listen in on people and there were listening devices in each "converter box". It took me an hour to explain to her why this was not so and why this was not technically possible. (Basically you can buy these for cash and they would have no idea who bought which unit. And there are too many people involved with the manufacture of these units to keep such a secret.)"*

When confronted by paranoia.

Encourage it.

If a logger and a crazy lady glaring at each othewr can be entertaining. Take a step further and tell her later that the same parent company that is logging over 60% of the NW Forests today is also producing the convertor boxes.

Hey, it doesn't have to be true. Just wind 'em up.


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## Mherriford (Nov 20, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"One lady was totally convinced the 2009 digital TV converter box switch-over was a conspiracy by the government to listen in on people and there were listening devices in each "converter box". It took me an hour to explain to her why this was not so and why this was not technically possible. (Basically you can buy these for cash and they would have no idea who bought which unit. And there are too many people involved with the manufacture of these units to keep such a secret.)"*
> 
> When confronted by paranoia.
> 
> ...



This


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## ropensaddle (Nov 20, 2008)

gink595 said:


> LOLOL, Another observation, look what the handles of those signs are made out of. You talk about a waste of resources



The whole sign is a wood product minus paint and ink!


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## Bushler (Nov 20, 2008)

If you really want to crank them up....I tell them I've applied for a whale harvest permit. I have a Highly Migratory Species Permit, with a permit for harpoon (true). I go on to tell them I'd like their support in getting the Californial Gray Whale off the endangered species list so we can start harvesting them again.

Usually good for a death threat or two.

Watch the Whale Wars on discovery tomorow night, I'm rootin' for the Japs!


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## Gologit (Nov 23, 2008)

Tree Sling'r said:


> No worries Burvol, fire seasons the past 5 years have been worse than ever. The Green Movement is gonna bite themsleves. The fuel in our forests are more dense than ever. It won't be long and all of our precious resources will be black.
> Maybe then they will realize that Mother Nature is a garden that does indeed need to be weeded and maintained in order to prosper.



Well said.


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## Burvol (Nov 24, 2008)

I guess I should apologize to you publicy as well Jacob, I appreciate your response to my apology in my PM. I am no way here to make people mad or fight with others (especially loggers). I just have had too much in terms of the current mindset here in my part of Oregon. People just seem to be absoluty adament against logging...what ever the cost may be...for all of us. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSEaHyzbqTA
These folks are in Carolina, but I have actually seen this sort of thing happen around here!!! As a kid I remember more times than I can count people chaining themselves to trees, gates, spiking trees, ect, when the "movement" started gaining ground here. Mean while, yes...most do live in a house framed with Oregon Douglas Fir, and do wipe their asses with pulp wood. You can't have it both ways, the world is not Burger King. I've seen more forest meadows trashed with garbage, human fecal matter, diapers, and beer cans than ones not...after "earthy gatherings".


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## slowp (Nov 24, 2008)

I'm fighting the battle on the treehugger site. It is a "hiking" site but somebody will find out there is going to be a timber sale or LOGGING in an area and will post it and try to get others to stop it just because they have a view there or a favorite walk or just don't like logging. It gets pretty stupid.
I'm trying to get a guy to tell me just what in his mind, rehabilitation consists of and what kind of a harvest method would be acceptable to him. No answer yet. Usually, if you pin them down with such questions, they can't answer. 

Then they whine about how bad the forest roads are.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 24, 2008)

Burvol said:


> People just seem to be absoluty adament against logging...what ever the cost may be...for all of us.





slowp said:


> I'm trying to get a guy to tell me just what in his mind, rehabilitation consists of and what kind of a harvest method would be acceptable to him. No answer yet. Usually, if you pin them down with such questions, they can't answer.



That's my biggest peeve right there. I've cut on sides that were being protested (One of the more famous was the Paw timber sale) and I've chatted with many environmentalists. When I mention such things as the suppression of fire, importation of foreign disease and insects, and the accumulation of fuels in the understory- not a one of them could proffer me an alternative to mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem. 

There's a handful of educated pro-environmentals, but typically they're not at the helm of these radical eco-groups. I've encountered more of them in conservation positions with state and federal governments than I have anywhere else. 

A good blogger site to visit for educated forestry and pro-timber viewpoints is Mike Dubrasich's site on "SOS Forests"- http://westinstenv.org/sosf/


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## forestryworks (Nov 24, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> That's my biggest peeve right there. I've cut on sides that were being protested (One of the more famous was the Paw timber sale) and I've chatted with many environmentalists. When I mention such things as the suppression of fire, importation of foreign disease and insects, and the accumulation of fuels in the understory- not a one of them could proffer me an alternative to mechanical fuels reduction (i.e. logging) and the re-introduction of low-intensity fire to the ecosystem.
> 
> There's a handful of educated pro-environmentals, but typically they're not at the helm of these radical eco-groups. I've encountered more of them in conservation positions with state and federal governments than I have anywhere else.
> 
> A good blogger site to visit for educated forestry and pro-timber viewpoints is Mike Dubrasich's site on "SOS Forests"- http://westinstenv.org/sosf/



thanks for the link - very interesting read


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 24, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> idiots, plain and simple





Yes, "useful idiots".

If you are not familiar with the term, you should look into it. It explains a lot.


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