# How do you pay your crew?



## Torquin (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm not talking rates, but how, by the hour, day, job, etc.?
I know of companies that pay by the day for ground crew, and run the crew till it gets dark. I am more of a pay by the hour guy, since I may not have a full day's worth of work, due to a small job or the last 1/2 day of a big job, so it's more fair for both sides.
I have also been thinking of doing commission instead, allotting each guy, depending on his job, a certain percentage of the job's value, and the quicker the job gets done the sooner they can get to the next job to make more money. I wonder if this makes more sense than hourly, since when you get paid by the hour, for some, it doesn't matter how long X job takes since you get paid whether it's this job or another job. Of course, we, as business owners are essentially on commission ourselves, since we don't usually get an hourly rate for a job.
I just want to hear how others do it because I want to be fair, but to myself and my crew.

Thanks,
Chris


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## ATH (Sep 30, 2009)

I pay by the hour.

Though...I do like the idea of the crew knowing before they start: "You get $xyz to complete this job and $xxy for the next job", etc...

One potential disadvantage is: will they leave the site when they feel they have done enough to earn their money? For example, sometimes that final clean-up seems to take forever. I wonder if they would see that as "their" money that it is costing them as they wait to go to the next job (therefore less motivated to make it look perfect) as opposed to "just another hour of the boss's money". Or, will they call it good enough so they can go home especially on the last job of the day...especially on a Friday. Setting high expectations, keeping good workers and adequately rewarding them can help alleviate this, but isn't part of that just human nature?


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## chipmaker29 (Oct 1, 2009)

Torquin said:


> I'm not talking rates, but how, by the hour, day, job, etc.?
> I know of companies that pay by the day for ground crew, and run the crew till it gets dark. I am more of a pay by the hour guy, since I may not have a full day's worth of work, due to a small job or the last 1/2 day of a big job, so it's more fair for both sides.
> I have also been thinking of doing commission instead, allotting each guy, depending on his job, a certain percentage of the job's value, and the quicker the job gets done the sooner they can get to the next job to make more money. I wonder if this makes more sense than hourly, since when you get paid by the hour, for some, it doesn't matter how long X job takes since you get paid whether it's this job or another job. Of course, we, as business owners are essentially on commission ourselves, since we don't usually get an hourly rate for a job.
> I just want to hear how others do it because I want to be fair, but to myself and my crew.
> ...



we have fought this as well. we dont run a crew all the time but may in the future if things ever turn around.

if you pay hourly then u gotta worry about guys milking the cleanup so they can get more hours but if you give incentives for guys to hurry so they can get to the next job then u risk them maybe halfway doing things so they can move on.

i think commission is good if you have a small crew & can work it out. it is kinda tough especially these days because seems like most everyone dont wanna work hard or are always looking to do the least and get paid the most.
i know i dont pay nobody until i have inspected everything & make sure it is done properly and is up to my expectations.


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## PurdueJoe (Oct 1, 2009)

Right now I pay by the hour and it works well. However, looking back at my days as an employee and not employer the reason is has been working is because I'm on every job. Everyone seems to work a little harder when the boss man is around. 2 problems i see with % of a job is that what if the salesman totally underbids the work?? That's NOT the employee's problem. And remembering what it was like working for someone if my old boss said sorry man, I under bid this so here's half of what u should have made today I would have been gone. #2 What if equipment goes wrong or someone breaks something resulting in a lower priced job? I've lived this, something will break equipment or otherwise and will NEVER work on % every again as a sub. % can be a good idea but only if ever job goes according to plan.


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## chipmaker29 (Oct 1, 2009)

PurdueJoe said:


> Right now I pay by the hour and it works well. However, looking back at my days as an employee and not employer the reason is has been working is because I'm on every job. Everyone seems to work a little harder when the boss man is around. 2 problems i see with % of a job is that what if the salesman totally underbids the work?? That's NOT the employee's problem. And remembering what it was like working for someone if my old boss said sorry man, I under bid this so here's half of what u should have made today I would have been gone. #2 What if equipment goes wrong or someone breaks something resulting in a lower priced job? I've lived this, something will break equipment or otherwise and will NEVER work on % every again as a sub. % can be a good idea but only if ever job goes according to plan.



some really good points made in what you said. your right....equipment always seems to give fits at the worst times!

LOL...and oh ya salesman underbid jobs for sure and we all pay for that. frustrating for sure but it does happen.


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## BC WetCoast (Oct 2, 2009)

One option you could try if you aren't on the job yourself. Pay the crew by the hour but give your lead hand a production/quality bonus. He gets a small bonus if he beats the man hour rate target and quality expectations. Poor job cleanup no bonus. Job takes too long no bonus. 

You will also find that if your bids are too low, you will quickly hear about it because it is now costing your lead hand money.

Keep the bonus deal on the down low so the rest of the crew doesn't become jealous.


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## PurdueJoe (Oct 2, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> One option you could try if you aren't on the job yourself. Pay the crew by the hour but give your lead hand a production/quality bonus. He gets a small bonus if he beats the man hour rate target and quality expectations. Poor job cleanup no bonus. Job takes too long no bonus.
> 
> You will also find that if your bids are too low, you will quickly hear about it because it is now costing your lead hand money.
> 
> Keep the bonus deal on the down low so the rest of the crew doesn't become jealous.



I agree totally. When I get to that point that's how I would like to do things.


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## southsoundtree (Oct 3, 2009)

I'm coming at this from an owner/ operator perspective, so I am the owner and the lead on every job. I get the "bonus" if we finish quickly, and any negative consequences as well. 



Perhaps it is not about a bonus, but a part of their regular compensation, hourly plus "commission".



Seems like the positives have been explored...

Will this potentially mean that the lead will run the crew into the ground and effect morale? Turnover? Training/ productivity costs for new workers?

Will this mean less safety concern because the trade-off is more money for the lead?

Will this lead to less concern for the equipment, say dirty stuff going through the chipper to speed things up, leading to more maintenance and wear-and-tear?

Will you have to check up on the jobsite more, where before you didn't because the lead was paid by the hour exclusively, so it benefitted him to be sure the clean-up was up to par? Will you maybe need to send a crew out there again to touch-up?

Will the lead be focused on getting out of there and helping more with the clean-up, and maybe less on Customer Relations, checking in with the neighbors, etc?

All things to consider, along with the benefits.

Good luck.


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## chipmaker29 (Oct 3, 2009)

southsoundtree said:


> I'm coming at this from an owner/ operator perspective, so I am the owner and the lead on every job. I get the "bonus" if we finish quickly, and any negative consequences as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



there is alot of truth in what you said. all those things gotta be considered and u can bet all the other guys would be pissed if they knew the "lead" guy was getting more money and that could cause ya BIG problems in alot of areas. i am lead on my jobs as well and i do get the bonus if there is any to be had BUT oh ya...i get stuck with all the negative consequences too. sometimes there are not any but there are times there are and i definitely check with neighbors (in a professional manner) just to see if they need anything while we are in the area.


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## Dalmatian90 (Oct 5, 2009)

My two cents...

They're laborers working under your direction, and insurance. They're hourly.

If they do a good job, give them a raise.

If you try paying by the job, you're just inviting trouble. 

While I'd think most tree workers make little enough and most tree companies are small enough it wouldn't get the ambulance chasers smelling blood...you do have stuff like this: http://www.hrmorning.com/are-strippers-creative-professionals-under-flsa/ . Hard to believe a lawyer took a case over four workers over minimum wage, but they did.

Had an acquaintance who was a bit of a doofus. He was relating the tale of how his boss offered the crew to work on Saturday, in exchange for the following Friday after Thanksgiving off. They took the offer. Then the guy I knew turned around and complained to the boss they weren't paid time and a half for Saturday, and threatened to file a complaint with the state. Boss was trying to be a nice guy, dingleberry however had to go a complain about what he was indeed legally entitled to. I suspect in the future the boss isn't going to offer the guys to trade days like that.

Just for baloney like that I'd just pay folks hourly and be done with it.

--------
I wonder if, however, you could throw things like gift certificates to them from time to time as an extra thank you without it counting as wages? "Did a great job this month guys, here's a $50 gift card to ________"


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## wravenant (Oct 8, 2009)

*Effectiveness*

HI there.

I run a tree company out in Cape Town, South Africa. Having worked in the UK and Alsaka, I had a good idea of what climbers want. My crew is highly effective, I put it down to ethics and training and pride, but also paying them right.

I pay them for a full day every day, no matter whether it is half a job or a full day's work. I have found out that the hard and easy days cancel each other out.

They know they get easy days, and they know they have to give all the have on hard days, it is a mutual relationship.

Hope this helps.


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## TimberMcPherson (Oct 8, 2009)

wravenant said:


> HI there.
> 
> I run a tree company out in Cape Town, South Africa. Having worked in the UK and Alsaka, I had a good idea of what climbers want. My crew is highly effective, I put it down to ethics and training and pride, but also paying them right.
> 
> ...





Thats awesome.

Makes alot of sense to.


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## wravenant (Oct 9, 2009)

*Efficiency*

Yea, it works very well for me, and they guys are great. The main thing is that you should trust your crew, and that they should be proud of their job. It also makes a differance wether you are/was a climber or not. Since I started at the bottom, I understand how they feel, and I know what it is like if you just bust your ass the whole time, for no reward, now, if they bust their asses, they go home earlier.

Yes, there is a fine line between the quality of work, and the speed, but if you keep a firm hand on it, it is fine. I make sure that the quality stays great, and that they do not get in the mind set of rushing jobs.

Sometimes you have to put a little pessure on, just to keep them sharp.


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## TheLumberJack (Oct 13, 2009)

I pay by the job...when we're standing there looking at it. I say "how about xxx.xx dollars?" 

They say yes or no and then we get workin.

I have no full time employees and my contracted guys are all relatives so it's pretty informal.


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## treeman75 (Nov 1, 2009)

I have one full timer and he is the best hand I have had. I do most all the cutting so I am always on the job site and I help with the ground work we can knock a job out pretty fast. I pay him 100 a day 8 hours if we work a half a day i will throw him 60 depending on how hard it is. I have a couple of other guys if I need them. I also tell him he is doing an awesome job too and that goes a long ways


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## ponderosatree (Nov 18, 2009)

Torquin said:


> I am more of a pay by the hour guy



Well, that's nice. Legally speaking you don't have a choice as to how you pay your guys. You have to pay them by the hour and that's that. I realize there's a lot of chainsaw charley types on this forum but my crew rarely milks their hours. Often times they want to knock off early because we get a lot of really exhausting work.


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 18, 2009)

During the summer I had 3 full time guys. Right now I have 1 full time and 2 part time. I pay by the hour and I pay well. If we get done early I generally pay them for 8 hours. If it's an early day and it was cake I tell them they can finish the day splitting firewood if they like. If they do a real nice job I'll throw them an extra $20-50 for the day. I always round up their hours at the end of the week. They get paid time and 1/2 for anything over 8 hours for the day or 40 hours for the week. They all get x-mas bonusess as well. They all work hard for me and I take care of them. I'm usually working right along side them everyday. I also buy drinks alot especially in the summer.... Mike


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