# Dead Tree stuck in live one.



## musch (Oct 5, 2006)

OK, Im soliciting opinions.
I have multiple trees that have "fallen" into live trees, and are hung up in the limbs and branches of healthy trees that I do not want to see injured.

Obviously, I would avoid this if I were falling the trees, but these have blown over during heavy storms, and may be damaged to some extent.

Other than the use of heavy equipment, is there a technique you folks use to bring down these type of trees?

I want to clear the woods, and these trees are an obvious source of good firewood. 

I am thinking of safe ways of roping, winching, cutting them out, but am wondering about the experience of others.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.


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## clearance (Oct 5, 2006)

I like people to do things but removing dead trees leaning into live trees is no walk in the park, can be deadly. Every situation is different, I have done lots of stuff like that, I have been trained, figured it out myself, taken chances, learned by close calls and so on. Even dealing with live tied up leaners can be scary, its a roll of the dice. Please get someone, like a real faller to help you out. And arborists are not fallers, but a good working arborist may be able to help as well.


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## musch (Oct 5, 2006)

I definately appreciate the safety warning.
My idea was something like using a very long rope or strap, and winching it diagonally out of the tree. 
I am not going to even attempt some kind of climbing. I know when I am beyond my skill level.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 6, 2006)

musch said:


> I definately appreciate the safety warning.
> My idea was something like using a very long rope or strap, and winching it diagonally out of the tree.
> I am not going to even attempt some kind of climbing. I know when I am beyond my skill level.




Well certainly heavy equipment would be a good thing to have. At some point you are going to have to cut the tree off the root wad before you winch it over or down. OTH, if a cut or two up high will allow it to fall,why not climb the live tree, tie in to it, and make those cuts? Then again, every tree is different, and you would want a lot of experience and a thougtful approach. 

Even walking up to a dead leaner and wacking pieces off from the bottom could be OK, it all depends on the condition of the dead tree and how its hung up. I certainly would NOT do that if there were big old dead branches overhead that could break off from the shock. I worked with a very experienced arborist once who did that to a live birch that had hung up; what he didn't see was a four inch branch high up that was dead and fell, hitting him a glancing blow on the hardhat. Knocked him out for a minute.


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## Ekka (Oct 6, 2006)

I only had a small dead leaning into other trees aint gonna climb rotten bastid today. It was about a 40' dead casuarina.

I can tell ya, I got my wits about me and my predictability is good.

First thing I did was cut it off the stump to anchor the butt into the ground ... one less whacko factor I figured. Before I cut it off I tied the butt to another tree so it couldn't spring back at me.

Then the rotten dead bastid came off the stump, rolled about 1/4 turn and lodged even better into the 2 other trees.

Cut a long story short I kept nipping about 3' bits off the butt till I got to a point where I figured ... that's it, no more as I'm near verticle, still a slight lean but no more.

I knew the next cut up high would mean the butt log would fall forward toward the tree it was hung up in but the dead rotten bastid would spring out the opposite way ... toward me.

So I cut a reversed narrow scarf (notch) toward me, started the back cut and as I was coming up to the hinge it started to fold just like predicted (this cut was up at shoulder ht). As it started I walked forward and hid around the trunk of the tree it was caught in ... like a dream it folded, the 5' butt log lay on the ground the rest fell where i was standing previously nicely. Phew, I was safe and happy .... but I can tell you now there's not many blokes I would have trusted with it.

So think about rolling, springing, stuff flying and use ropes to back you up.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 6, 2006)

clearance said:


> And arborists are not fallers, but a good working arborist may be able to help as well.


Also, fallers are not arborists. A faller may not know or care about the health of the tree, or your forest.


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## Ed*L (Oct 6, 2006)

Hung up dead or wind damaged trees are a definate health hazard. Don't rush into anything with them, take your time & think it through. Since it's on your own property, there is no rush to get the tree down, you aren't losing money thinking about it.
I recently had a broken Cottonwood hung up in my woods. It was an old lightening strike tree that the main trunk broke off at the strike point (rotted away), about 35' feet up. The broken top was at a 90 degree angle to the trunk. At least the tree was pretty accessable, only 25 or 30' into the woods.
The tree was 24" to 28" dbh with an overall hieght of 75'. The top broke against the lean of the tree, If you just cut it, you were dead. It would have folded at the break & the top half would have landed on your head. I made several trips to it to look it over & plan my attack. The tree would have to be pulled where it didn't want to go.
First I took the Clearing saw out & cut all the brush away from the tree, cut the poision ivy growing up it & cleared a landing zone. I also cleared an escape route, making sure there were no dead branckes or debris to trip over while leaving.
I went back a week later & pulled the dammed dead poison ivy off the tree.
When I went back to cut it, I took a partner!!!! Also had my 1 ton Dodge truck which is equpiied with a 9000lb winch. Using an extension ladder I rigged the tree at 20' up, hooked up the winch & took out the slack.
After making the undercut & while working the back cut my partner kept increasing the tension on the cable, pulling the tree toward the field/landing zone. When the hinge broke it barberchaired slightly & fell about halfway to the ground, the top still hung up.
I repositioned the truck & finished winching it down.

Ed


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## mpatch (Oct 6, 2006)

Where in WI are you located?


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 6, 2006)

There is some good advice being given here. My two cents:

Start small, sometimes you can just undercut sections and "walk" the tree down. As long as you can position yourself in a way that the top or the piece you are cutting won't fall on you.

Another way is to make a box cut and tie a line near the cut, then you can get clear and pull until the cut breaks.

The best way IMHO (every situation is different). Throw a line into the live tree. If you get good with a throwline you can actually rig the dead tree off of the live one and section and lower it in a safe, controlled manner from the ground.

Good luck, be safe, have fun!


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## Cornubia06 (Oct 8, 2006)

Never never ever climb the tree your windblown one is hung up in. Standard practice would be to detatch from stump with aid of a 'cant' hook or breaker bar. Once rolled off the stump set up winch and winch/skid it backwards until it dislodges itself. May have to reset the winch set up several times if you run out of cable. If no space to winch it out then use Ekkas technique by taking chunks from the bottom like you see in the cartoons

However you do it be very very careful, its not an easy thing to do. Also you say the trees are dead, watch out for hangers/dead branches that will easily snap out and fall on your noggin.


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## smokechase II (Oct 8, 2006)

*equipment*

Distance can mean safety.
There are a variety of stats put out, but just think that the further from the stump the generally safer you are.


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## gitrdun_climbr (Oct 8, 2006)

*NOT a technique to try!*

This is eyewitness testimony only, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. It was my first month with a tree service and we had an 80 or so foot fir lodged into the top of another, similar sized fir. The windblown was leaning right over a cedar shed, fence and hot tub at about a 30 degree angle into the 'good' tree. I would never recommend this but my co-worker climbed and tied into the good tree, swung over to the windblown, notched the topside of it just below the hang-up spot and rappelled down. Next he notched and felled the windblown from the base as normal and as pressure increased up top his upper hinge snapped and the top half folded back towards the lower half...we ran. The thing fell beautifully in two pieces, one on top of the other, away from all targets. The job was down and dirty, no clean up. We were walking back out of the woods within 10 minutes and I thought as a new climber, 'what the hell did I get myself into'.
:jawdrop:


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## clearance (Oct 8, 2006)

Remember folks, he is talking about DEAD leaning trees. Ya'll ever try this-big fir leaned into another big fir, climb the good one way up with a bull rope, wrap the rope around a few branches with the wraps starting above then tie onto the leaner and come down. Then take the other end of the bull rope and wrap around something good on the ground, or tie it to a truck or heavy machine. Then start blocking the tree down while standing on the ground with a big saw, the leaner will swing into the good tree and hang, you just keep backing off the rope as needed, works awesome. Dead trees have thier own problems, just asking for trouble to fool around, I would climb the good tree, tie a bull rope onto the dead tree and come down. Then I would tie onto a truck, machine, winch, making sure I was a long safe distance away and yard it down.


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## jomoco (Oct 8, 2006)

*Dead Tree stuck in live one*

I think OTG Boston is the closest to a reasonably safe approach to solving your problem.

There is a device called a " Big Shot " that should allow you to place a throw line into the dead tree at an optimum spot. Then you can pull a bull line into it, tie a running bowline at the base at shoulder heigth, make a felling cut at the base pointing toward the desired fall path leaving a sufficient amount of hinge wood. Then you should be able to winch or come along it over with a very fair degree of safety.

This method has certainly worked well for me on many occasions in the past.

Work Safe!

jomoco


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 8, 2006)

This is definitely high risk territory; and not just from the fallen tree; but pieces of any other tree affected by forces of you moving tree(s) around that can drop a widow maker. Look out for vines that could hangup tree as you manipulate it; like vines are the original ropes that could be tied and rigged to hurt, rather than help your efforts.

Throwline of about any type is helpful. So can many times heavy equipment or just truck pulls.

i have found some unique challenges and thereby lessons in hung up trees. To me a leaned over; hung up tree that can free itself by steering a certain way, is a reverse lesson in felling. In that; by using the tree's own weight (and perhaps some rope pull); with a proper hinge/ face technique, we can have success. The reverse comes in; because we are flexing hinge up; in the direction force of a hung up tree is pushing; instead of flexing a hinge down; as a falling force (of itself +) is pulling.

If a tree can free it self by folding up and to left; i will make small face to up left. Then, kerf down covering upwards direction and right. Then Backcut upwards to kind of close up/ right kerf and set up to leave a tapered hinge pulling left. Then complete backcut upwards to let the tapered hinge pull to left; as the closed kerf pushes down and away from right (to left). The closed kerf upwards and to right; would be a dutchman in one side; and the tapered hinge at same time forming a kind of swing.

i like proving things as i understand them in reverse too; to understand them more, reinforce old lessons; and also proving them as all prevailing forces in a system. i took Dent's ,odels into tree climbing and further proved his theories/ models as working there too; upside down/ reverse, into rigging etc. 

Dutch push in 1 side of face. This is not newbie technique.


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## gitrdun_climbr (Oct 8, 2006)

Definitely many factors involved as every hanger will come with a different set of circumstances. In our case there was no room to bring in heavy equipment. Single file sized walking trail, way into the woods where even blocks and ropes wouldn't reach heavy equipment.

One must also consider the compromised integrity of any hinge in dead wood.

Bigshot...running bowline...bullrope near base for safety/control...hang it and chunk it from bottom up...or some variation thereof seems feasible in some situations but not all.


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## coydog (Oct 8, 2006)

gitrdun_climbr said:


> This is eyewitness testimony only, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. It was my first month with a tree service and we had an 80 or so foot fir lodged into the top of another, similar sized fir. The windblown was leaning right over a cedar shed, fence and hot tub at about a 30 degree angle into the 'good' tree. I would never recommend this but my co-worker climbed and tied into the good tree, swung over to the windblown, notched the topside of it just below the hang-up spot and rappelled down. Next he notched and felled the windblown from the base as normal and as pressure increased up top his upper hinge snapped and the top half folded back towards the lower half...we ran. The thing fell beautifully in two pieces, one on top of the other, away from all targets. The job was down and dirty, no clean up. We were walking back out of the woods within 10 minutes and I thought as a new climber, 'what the hell did I get myself into'.
> :jawdrop:


sometimes you can set up a cut like that on a hung tree at ground level, cut your first facecut right above the ground facing the direction you want to pull the tree in and make your second facecut at head level or so, facing towards the tree your snag is hung in, cut a partial backcut in both of them(use wedges or the bar might get pinched)(partial meaning a thick enough hinge to keep everything in place until you apply some mechanical advantage) set your pull line just below the upper cut hook up to a winch and pull from a safe distance, the 6 foot or so section of trunk should pull over and bring the top of the tree over with it and into the dirt, you can the go and reset your pull line on the butt of the top and pull it clear . disclaimer,: advanced felling technique and not applicable in all situations, hung trees are all of them unique situations.


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## musch (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks for all the responses.
I am going to print these out and read through it all.
I love the knowledge and wisdom here. Much appreciated.

There are quite a few trees on the property that fit the description, and I am in no hurry, so.. I'll try to take pics, and let you guys critique my work, when I get to it.


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