# Milling saves me more money than I thought...



## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

Went down to the building supply to get a couple nice new guide boards since the best one I had didn't do so well over the winter. Two 14' Pine #2 2X10s cost me darn near $30!!! Sheesh, I can cut for a whole day on less fuel and oil than that, and have a couple hundred BF or some nice beams to show for it! And I don't even have a bandmill yet.


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## Andrew96 (Apr 12, 2010)

Amazing eh? The difference seems even greater when you start looking at hardwoods...though softwood is enough of a shock. I couldn't afford to make the stuff I do if I actually had to lay out cash to get material.


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## timberwolf (Apr 12, 2010)

Don't want to rain on a sunny day, but don't forget though to count some of the value of the saw in your wood yield. Saws don't last forever, esp when miling.


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## FJH (Apr 12, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> Don't want to rain on a sunny day, but don't forget though to count some of the value of the saw in your wood yield. Saws don't last forever, esp when miling.



As long as your wood is free this is the case!
If you were to buy logs and cut em you would find by the time you add in your time, gas ,oil, wear and tear on the saw sharpening ect you would break even and that pine board would be a bargin.just think how long it takes to set up and cut a log and how long each pass takes.
For me its not worth me milling for somone else unless I do it by the hour.


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## mtngun (Apr 12, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> Don't want to rain on a sunny day, but don't forget though to count some of the value of the saw in your wood yield. Saws don't last forever, esp when miling.


Saws are indeed high maintenance.

However, if you buy a used milling saw and maintain it in good running condition, chances are you can sell it on ebay for about what you paid. It's mind boggling what people will pay for beat up old muscle saws on ebay.

When you look at it that way, the real cost of milling is maintenance, fuel, oil, chains, bars, tools, and accessories -- which is still substantial. 

Most of that stuff I'd need anyway for cutting firewood. 

I figure I "break even" on milling, plus I enjoy it, plus it seems more environmentally friendly than store bought lumber.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> Don't want to rain on a sunny day, but don't forget though to count some of the value of the saw in your wood yield. Saws don't last forever, esp when miling.



I suppose, though I can do all my own maintenance and repair and saws are as much a hobby for me as anything else, so I don't really think of it that way. And it's not exactly like I'd be left high and dry if one of my saws did blow up! And yes it is beautifully sunny here today yet again. 



FJH said:


> As long as your wood is free this is the case!
> If you were to buy logs and cut em you would find by the time you add in your time, gas ,oil, wear and tear on the saw sharpening ect you would break even and that pine board would be a bargin.just think how long it takes to set up and cut a log and how long each pass takes.
> For me its not worth me milling for somone else unless I do it by the hour.



True, though stumpage on salvage logs here is only $12.50 / cube, so there's still immense profit or savings to be made off of that. Would depend on transport costs more, I guess. I haven't done many milling jobs for anyone else really. I've cut a fair number of pieces for folks, but I can usually fit them in around stuff I'm already doing for myself. My setup time depends on how long the piece is, more or less. If it's shorter than the guide piece I'm using, setup and cut time isn't that bad at all; once I start having to move the guide board is when it starts taking too much time, which is why I bought two 14' 2X10 pieces. And while cutting boards admittedly isn't time efficient for earning money, I think custom beams would be. I'd love to know how much the 8" X 12" X 26' Fir beam I cut a couple weeks ago would be worth on the market.


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## timberwolf (Apr 12, 2010)

> I suppose, though I can do all my own maintenance and repair and saws are as much a hobby for me as anything else, so I don't really think of it that way. And it's not exactly like I'd be left high and dry if one of my saws did blow up! And yes it is beautifully sunny here today yet again.



Yep, I think of my bit of milling in the same way, also the mill allows making cuts that would be hard or impossible to find at any common lumber store.

Milling shines in making those big thick slabs and beams, not so much for ripping 2x2s for a railing. Though I have milled slabs and recut with contractor grade circular saw, that worked not bad for making some smaller dimentioned lumber.


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## Kicker_92 (Apr 12, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> I'd love to know how much the 8" X 12" X 26' Fir beam I cut a couple weeks ago would be worth on the market.



That beam would currently be about $420 here in Vancouver, rough sawn finish and you pick up from the mill. (assuming it would be select grade structural)

Nice chunk of change for a couple days work...


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## TraditionalTool (Apr 12, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> That beam would currently be about $420 here in Vancouver, rough sawn finish and you pick up from the mill. (assuming it would be select grade structural)
> 
> Nice chunk of change for a couple days work...


That seems high, but I think your talking about Canadian $$$s.

I've been told that I could get 6x12 at $4/linear-foot. Even if 8x12 was $5/linear-foot, that would still be about $125 for the beam. If you consider the time in milling it, moving the log around, getting it setup, etc...the savings is not that great, IMO. A bandmill makes the process much simpler, IMO.


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## stipes (Apr 12, 2010)

*I dont know if anyone else have a prob...*



Brmorgan said:


> Went down to the building supply to get a couple nice new guide boards since the best one I had didn't do so well over the winter. Two 14' Pine #2 2X10s cost me darn near $30!!! Sheesh, I can cut for a whole day on less fuel and oil than that, and have a couple hundred BF or some nice beams to show for it! And I don't even have a bandmill yet.



But tryin to find a decent guide board without a bow you have to start digging tru the pile and the local lumber store,,box store,, the people workin there starts coming over and ask ,,,can I help you,,,I want to say,,yes,,you can dig tru here and find a half azz decent board that isnt twisted and bowed....Seems like any 2x4,,,2 x6,,8's ect,,is junk for what I been seeing....I wanted to do some short milling without using the ladder and have so much overhang,,and I bit the bullet and bought a 2x8 10' the best I could find,,and cut off 4' of it on the radial arm saw...I'll end up using the 4" section for kindling,,yes,,it's that bad....I'm just wondering if anyone is havin a hard time finding decent lumber too....


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## mtngun (Apr 12, 2010)

stipes said:


> I'm just wondering if anyone is havin a hard time finding decent lumber too....


Yep. Even if the lumber is straight at the store, more often than not it'll quickly warp once it is exposed to sun. That's why I finally broke down and switched to a metal guide.


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## stipes (Apr 12, 2010)

*So true!!!*



mtngun said:


> Yep. Even if the lumber is straight at the store, more often than not it'll quickly warp once it is exposed to sun. That's why I finally broke down and switched to a metal guide.



:agree2:


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## Kicker_92 (Apr 12, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> That seems high, but I think your talking about Canadian $$$s.



Yes, CDN $ but it's pretty much the same these days. 

That beam 8"x12"x26ft be 208 bdft, and that size of Doug Fir last time I got quoted was going for $2000/M for select. 

Your prices are much lower than here if you get a 6x12 @ $4/lineal foot. Thats only $0.67 per board foot!


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> That seems high, but I think your talking about Canadian $$$s.
> 
> I've been told that I could get 6x12 at $4/linear-foot. Even if 8x12 was $5/linear-foot, that would still be about $125 for the beam. If you consider the time in milling it, moving the log around, getting it setup, etc...the savings is not that great, IMO. A bandmill makes the process much simpler, IMO.



Umm... Considering that our dollar is presently at par with yours, that's also USD too (for now).  Heh, I was in a restaurant yesterday and they had a sign by the register that said "Due to the declining US Dollar, we are unable to accept US currency for exchange". They used to accept it straight across (no exchange) when ours was worth less, but with it at parity it actually costs them money to go have it converted over so it isn't worth the trouble. I wonder if it'll affect business because they are right on the highway and get a LOT of traffic from folks making their way to/from Alaska every year.

I don't know general pricing for timbers, but the cheapest I've ever seen a 6X6 is $1.99/ln.ft., and I know that prices generally do not rise in a linear fashion as sizes increase - that is to say, a 6X12 would usually be more than twice the price of a 6X6 because it's harder to get the bigger pieces and still make the same grades. 

$420 sounds more like what I would have expected to pay had I had one of the smaller custom-cut Fir mills around here make the beam for me. I know I'd get laughed off the property if I offered $125; heck I wouldn't sell a beam like that for that little.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

stipes said:


> But tryin to find a decent guide board without a bow you have to start digging tru the pile and the local lumber store,,box store,, the people workin there starts coming over and ask ,,,can I help you,,,I want to say,,yes,,you can dig tru here and find a half azz decent board that isnt twisted and bowed....Seems like any 2x4,,,2 x6,,8's ect,,is junk for what I been seeing....I wanted to do some short milling without using the ladder and have so much overhang,,and I bit the bullet and bought a 2x8 10' the best I could find,,and cut off 4' of it on the radial arm saw...I'll end up using the 4" section for kindling,,yes,,it's that bad....I'm just wondering if anyone is havin a hard time finding decent lumber too....



Heh sounds like my experience yesterday! I went in and told them in the store that I wanted two boards - well, they wanted me to pay for them then and there. NO, no, no... I go and pick out my boards, then once I'm happy with what I have I'll come pay you for them. Keep my bank card in the meantime if you don't trust me. Ok, ok.

So I get down to the yard, tear the tarp off a lift of lumber and start digging in. Two young kids, couldn't be more than 19, come over and ask what I need (the store radioed down and told them I'd be coming). I ask if they happen to have any Douglas Fir in the size I need - I knew they didn't carry it separately, but sometimes it's mixed in if someone isn't paying attention. "Nope, we only carry Spruce." Ok... Funny that I'm looking at two slings of lumber that are at least 90% Lodgepole Pine, with some Spruce and Subalpine Fir mixed in. But oh well, I guess as a graderman I know less than the yard guys. So I picked out a couple boards without really tearing the pile apart too far. I'm a yardman's worst nightmare if I'm looking for something specific! I don't think they like us lumber graders very much. I hate it when I show up and they just start throwing boards in the back of the truck. For one the top row is always a writeoff for warp, and second I know that the smaller the pile is, the worse the lumber in it will be because of other guys like me cherry-picking the pile already. I look at EVERY piece before it goes in the truck, period.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Yep. Even if the lumber is straight at the store, more often than not it'll quickly warp once it is exposed to sun. That's why I finally broke down and switched to a metal guide.



I have two 14' pieces of Aluminum angle iron that I bought two years ago to help stabilize my guide board. I'm going to rig that up this afternoon with one of these boards - pics to come. It won't do much to mitigate twist or cupping but should help with bow, and will make the piece more rigid in general. If I could weld Aluminum, I'd put some cross-braces to help stabilize it all around, but that'll have to wait.

The best guide board would probably be fully quartersawn old-growth with very tight rings. Obviously that is a pipe dream for many, including myself right now, unless I want to spend $100+ on finish-grade 2" lumber instead of buying structural grade. I keep trying to cut myself a board that's good enough to use as a guide but haven't got one I'm really happy with yet.

I've had decent luck with flat/rift sawn boards that are cut so that the growth rings enter near one corner of the piece, make a nice wide arc up, and come back down at the other corner. The type of piece you might salvage from the first-cut slab after milling a log with an Alaskan. They are a bit prone to cupping, and so might need a pass through the planer once in a while to flatten out, but providing they're cut nice and straight with no grain runout, they don't tent to twist or bow really badly, at least the ones I've had. 

Stipes - speaking of the ladder, have you seen this guy's method of mounting? Or maybe it's you, heck if I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4a-56Pxic8&NR=1

Looks pretty slick. Too bad my 12' extension ladder is a far sight from straight.


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## Kicker_92 (Apr 12, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> I guess as a graderman I know less than the yard guys. So I picked out a couple boards without really tearing the pile apart too far. I'm a yardman's worst nightmare if I'm looking for something specific! I don't think they like us lumber graders very much.



So *you're* the guy that keeps taking all the good board out of the stack! I was wondering why every time we go to buy lumber that all the good boards are already gone...


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## TraditionalTool (Apr 12, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Umm... Considering that our dollar is presently at par with yours, that's also USD too (for now).


I guess that's good if cash is going over the border, and I know some is...but even inside the U.S., money is very hard to come by.

Consider this, I bought fir recently for $300/1000, which is $0.30/bf. People can't sell logs down here, that's about 1/3rd what it was 2 years ago. NOBODY is buying lumber, you can get 2x12s at $0.50/bf in the big box stores, but they are not moving.

Still makes it worthwhile to have the sawmill, even if to save the marginal savings on timber, and any hardwoods are just icing on the cake, but the real value is in hardwoods.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> So *you're* the guy that keeps taking all the good board out of the stack! I was wondering why every time we go to buy lumber that all the good boards are already gone...



Well, for the number of times I buy lumber I doubt it inconveniences many people! It depends on what I'm doing with the wood. For studs or joists I'm not extremely picky. But for deck boards or where they'll be exposed etc., I don't want any crook or cup and minimal twist if at all; not to mention loose knots, holes, edgewane... I try to follow this ethic when grading at the mill too. Even if a piece will _technically_ make a Stud, if I wouldn't use it myself I downgrade quite often.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 12, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> I guess that's good if cash is going over the border, and I know some is...but even inside the U.S., money is very hard to come by.
> 
> Consider this, I bought fir recently for $300/1000, which is $0.30/bf. People can't sell logs down here, that's about 1/3rd what it was 2 years ago. NOBODY is buying lumber, you can get 2x12s at $0.50/bf in the big box stores, but they are not moving.
> 
> Still makes it worthwhile to have the sawmill, even if to save the marginal savings on timber, and any hardwoods are just icing on the cake, but the real value is in hardwoods.



Yeah a lot of the lumber we're making right now is staying inside Canada; most seems to be going to Alberta. Some over to China as well, but not nearly as much going south as we used to send. Our housing market didn't get hit nearly as hard as yours though, if at all. Property values are at all-time highs in many places; the AVERAGE price for a home in Vancouver (not the outlying cities) topped $1,000,000 last week. Nuckin' Futs, if you ask me! 

I heard that they just dropped our export tarriff by 5% too because the price of lumber has been up significantly - it had to hold $315/1000bf for four weeks and I guess it did. I haven't been following it too closely recently. But considering it was hovering just above $125/1000bf a year ago when we shut down, that's pretty decent. I've heard predictions of >$400/1000bf within a year if China's pace keeps up. I sure hope so. Would be nice to have some stability for a change; prices haven't been that high for a long time.


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## Andrew96 (Apr 13, 2010)

A lot of good stuff in this post now. 
We know who takes all the good lumber in the yards, see how wholesale prices are going....
however, when it comes to me goofing around with my saws......I only have to look at my other hobby..motorcycles. I spend more on insurance than my saw cost new...every year. I spend even more money riding around in circles off road than anything remotely to do with wood working. I think if I had to buy a new saw every year....I'd still chose to go buy one and go milling. It's fun..keeps me fit..gives me 'my' wood to play with. The value of fun needs to be considered. Yup...just a hobby miller I guess.


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## Hddnis (Apr 13, 2010)

There was a time here when 2x4's were so cheap guys were buying them instead of cutting firewood. 

For me milling saves a little money I suppose, but mostly it lets me get more value out of wood. That is value to me, not always $$$. 

I have a rotten out cottonwood log that I made cookies out of. When it dries a little dress up and one of those cookies is going to be a clock face for our Lodge Room. (What we call the big room in our house.)

Then there is the spalted maple logs. I've traded some of that wood for wood working tools and machines; so I'm getting value out of it, but not money.

The cost of milling with a CSM is the saw, the fuel/oil and bar oil, chains, bars, files/grinders, milling attachment, rails or guide boards. A total cost package is a lot of money and if it were a business would be factored into each board foot. 

Time is a factor too, as is transportation. The true value of a CSM is portability and versatility. It is value added if you already own a chainsaw as it allows more use of the tool.

Like anything if it is a hobby then don't count the cost too much or you'll stop enjoying it. lol



Mr. HE


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## stipes (Apr 13, 2010)

*To me the hardest part was...*



Hddnis said:


> There was a time here when 2x4's were so cheap guys were buying them instead of cutting firewood.
> 
> For me milling saves a little money I suppose, but mostly it lets me get more value out of wood. That is value to me, not always $$$.
> 
> ...


 :agree2:

Getting started and learning....The total cost getting started is kinda high,,but then once you get settled in,,it really isnt that bad expensive once you started , and you can cheat as in guide boards,,rails,take a older chain and grind it for milling,, but in all honesty,,,it isnt a hobbie when you can mill up a log and make something from it...Alot of tallent on here that makes some great things from their wood. Of all the things I searched for to get somekinda enjoyment for to last years down the road,,this is it...


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## Backwoods (Apr 13, 2010)

I still have a board tucked away that I bought several years ago ¾”x 10”x 8’ It cost $30.00. When I go out, fire up the mill, and can mill up all of the wood that I will use for a goat barn or other project in a days time, and have nothing but some time into the logs, it just feels good. I know, my mill cost more then any truck I have bought, but it makes me money during the week by not competing with the box stores. I mill a better product and my customers know it. I provide a service that many of the old timers thought was gone for good, as all of the small mills around here got pushed out by the big mills. The bandmill has made sawing logs efficient enough that it is practical for a land owner to hire me to pull in and mill up a whack of logs for them and save them money on the cost of there project and in this economy saving money is high on most everyone’s list.

As far as the lumber yard piles. Back when I was working in a production mill I went down to the lumber yard to get a few 2x4’s, since all there stacks of wood had the logo from the mill I worked at all over them I asked for Hemlock 2x4’s. The guy behind the counter corrected me, and stated that you can not get Hemlock, but they had Hem-fir. Need less to say the stacks he showed me were all Hemlock with no white fir mixed in as we had been separating them out for half a dozen years at that point.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 13, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> That seems high, but I think your talking about Canadian $$$s.
> 
> I've been told that I could get 6x12 at $4/linear-foot. Even if 8x12 was $5/linear-foot, that would still be about $125 for the beam.



But does that hold true for a 26' beam? Or is that price only good on shorter stock? It's been a looong time since I paid attention to stuff that big, but I seem to remember that you pay a premium for the longer stuff.


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## TraditionalTool (Apr 13, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> But does that hold true for a 26' beam? Or is that price only good on shorter stock? It's been a looong time since I paid attention to stuff that big, but I seem to remember that you pay a premium for the longer stuff.


I believe it does, but it was 6x10 I was quoted at $4/lf, not 6x12.

That is what the big mills are selling for when I was researching. My rafters are 21' long, so close to the 26' your talking about. I'm hoping to cut them myself now, but don't have enough fir...


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## stipes (Apr 13, 2010)

*That says it all...*



Backwoods said:


> I still have a board tucked away that I bought several years ago ¾”x 10”x 8’ It cost $30.00. When I go out, fire up the mill, and can mill up all of the wood that I will use for a goat barn or other project in a days time, and have nothing but some time into the logs, it just feels good. I know, my mill cost more then any truck I have bought, but it makes me money during the week by not competing with the box stores. I mill a better product and my customers know it. I provide a service that many of the old timers thought was gone for good, as all of the small mills around here got pushed out by the big mills. The bandmill has made sawing logs efficient enough that it is practical for a land owner to hire me to pull in and mill up a whack of logs for them and save them money on the cost of there project and in this economy saving money is high on most everyone’s list.
> 
> As far as the lumber yard piles. Back when I was working in a production mill I went down to the lumber yard to get a few 2x4’s, since all there stacks of wood had the logo from the mill I worked at all over them I asked for Hemlock 2x4’s. The guy behind the counter corrected me, and stated that you can not get Hemlock, but they had Hem-fir. Need less to say the stacks he showed me were all Hemlock with no white fir mixed in as we had been separating them out for half a dozen years at that point.



Backwoods....The service.....This day in time it's all about the money,,but I seen all you made on here and it's pride,,,craftsmanship...Thats something thats becoming a lost art anymore in this day intime.....
*I provide a service that many of the old timers thought was gone for good* 
My Grandpa and Grandma's home was made from each board of these woods that I live on.....Portable mill....You see a 2x4 in that home,,it is a true 2x4....Nothing in a box store that says 2x4 can match up.A 2x4 isnt a 2x4 now days...Door frames is ruff cut....Slat celings....
The crap I see now days in a box store,,and alot of lumber companys,,,if I was a manager I'd be ashamed to try to sell it on someone....Profit over pride...Thats whats killing this country ...Sometimes I think,,we just aint gonna make it much longer the path the country is goin to......When a man sells something he would be ashamed to take home himself,,he sold out his family's name,,his generation on down....I was raised to never do that to a man..Anything I make,,,do,,I want familys to enjoy years on down....Thats just the way I am my friend.......


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## DRB (Apr 13, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> That beam would currently be about $420 here in Vancouver, rough sawn finish and you pick up from the mill. (assuming it would be select grade structural)



That seems to be the going rate. $2 per bd/ft. It seems like a high price to pay when you can buy high grade fir logs for about $80 to $120 per cubic meter. A logging truck load of nice fir for $3600 or less.

Lets see $3600 divided by $420 = 8.6 ( 8 x 12 x 26 )

I am sure you could get a few more than 8-1/2 8x12's out of a truck load of logs.

Sounds like good profit to me.

Now if you value add that 8x12 by planing, CNC machining it for a timber frame and it appearance grade FOHC then the price goes to $4.88 per bd/ft. That does not even include timber frame set up.


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## TraditionalTool (Apr 14, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> But does that hold true for a 26' beam? Or is that price only good on shorter stock? It's been a looong time since I paid attention to stuff that big, but I seem to remember that you pay a premium for the longer stuff.


Mark,

Here's some fir for $2.50/lf for 6x8s, up in the Portland, OR area.


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## DRB (Apr 14, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> Mark,
> 
> Here's some fir for $2.50/lf for 6x8s, up in the Portland, OR area.



Why do we always pay such high prices up here?

We must like it or something


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## isaaccarlson (Apr 14, 2010)

I haven't milled a whole lot on my mill yet but it is definitely worth having. Yeah, sure they cost more than a used car but they save you money at the pump and in wood. I can't even find a straight board anymore. I dug through two stacks of 2x4s at fleet farm a while back to get 10 half way decent boards!!! The people there were looking at me funny as I muttered stuff about how I should have just milled up a nice pine log and used it wet.....they got kinda upset when I had a fit about paying $20 for 10 2x4s. There was only one 2x4 that I would have felt good about selling!!!! Besides...I can mill up ANY dimension that I need/want.


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## Brmorgan (Apr 14, 2010)

More red tape to get it? If I want to salvage dead standing Douglas Fir, I have to go through the same procedure as if they were live. Makes no sense to me.


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## discounthunter (Apr 14, 2010)

just remember some lumber we cut is not really workable for some time (if air dried) upwords of year(s) .


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## Brmorgan (Apr 14, 2010)

I suppose, but 90% or more of what I mill is already dead and destined for structural lumber anyway; so I have it a lot easier than guys milling green hardwood for finishing/furniture use.


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## SilverBox (Apr 15, 2010)

stipes said:


> But tryin to find a decent guide board without a bow you have to start digging tru the pile and the local lumber store,,box store,, the people workin there starts coming over and ask ,,,can I help you,,,I want to say,,yes,,you can dig tru here and find a half azz decent board that isnt twisted and bowed....Seems like any 2x4,,,2 x6,,8's ect,,is junk for what I been seeing....I wanted to do some short milling without using the ladder and have so much overhang,,and I bit the bullet and bought a 2x8 10' the best I could find,,and cut off 4' of it on the radial arm saw...I'll end up using the 4" section for kindling,,yes,,it's that bad....I'm just wondering if anyone is havin a hard time finding decent lumber too....



Don't buy the wet ones, buy the straight dryer boards, they tend to stay that way. Wet wood at the yard from the middle of the unit will look straight when you buy it, but literally within a few days will warp, always been that way.. Cull wood always ends up on the top of the stack, been that way for the last 30 years that I can remember buying wood at the yard/box store, will always be that way.. If your getting it delivered send the load back if its airplane props, or just tell em when you order it that you'll send it back if its cull wood. 

At the box store I throw all the cull wood off in front of the racks on the ground, then get what I need from deeper in the unit and if it needs to be really good I eyeball it from the end and buy dry ones, if its not so critical, I just look for major defects as I get what I need. Rarely does box store staff ask me if I need help when I'm loading alot of wood on a cart, they do come along after I'm done and stack all that cull wood that I tossed on the floor back on top of the unit, lol. They must get rid of some of the cull wood at some point thu, because it never seems to be really deep, just a layer or 2 at the most. 

At the yards around here, the busy ones with better pricing have less cull wood on the top of the stacks, the slower ones with higher pricing have more cull on top of the stacks, and once, the yard guys asked me to restack the culls back on the unit, I was feeling charitable that day and actually did it, in retrospect I should have left that crap wood on the ground.

Now that I think about it, in an outdoor yard, you probably want a layer of culls on top of the unit, keeps the wood underneath fresher longer.


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