# I have a problem PLZ HELP



## Mijic_Bogdan (Nov 11, 2006)

Hi,

I am almost new to Tree Service. I started doing trees for about 1.5 years. This year I faced something that I really never expected to happen. I went to give an estimate for one tree to be cut down and bunch of other trees to be trimmed. This happened this year i the middle of May. When I told the owner what the price is he told me that he is just getting estimates at that time. All he asked me is to sign my estimate which I did but he never signed it to make a contact. 

Now after 6 months he called me one day and told me to come and do the job and he told me that he refused to have a deal with other tree companies. Now I do not want to do the job because its too far. An hour driving maybe even more and its waste of time because the price that I gave was too cheap. My price was about 800 and the job is worth at least 1,600-1,800 . 

This guy now keeps on calling me from a private number and tells me that I must do the job. He even left me some voice mails that attacked me and my company.

2 days ago I accedently answered his call because a private number called me but it was a lady. When I answered she told me her name and told me to wait for a second and all of a sudden it was a guy on other line. He told me the lady is from a state or something with a law and that they are recording me. He and her are making me to do this job which I dont want to do because contract was never made. He didnt even ask me at the time of estimate for a expiration. My estimate expired because its valid for just 3 months but the problem is that it is not written on estimate...

What is this guy trying to do and what he and that lady can do bad to me and my company. Please help me


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## beowulf343 (Nov 11, 2006)

I'm a little confused. Why give an estimate that was too cheap in the first place?


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## jmcguiretree (Nov 11, 2006)

Sounds like this guy is a real idiot.Think about it , if he said that he won't work with any other tree co, is it that they don't want to work with him?Sounds like he is trouble and if you should do you job just to keep him quiet he'll most likely won't be happy with the finished job anyway.I say RUN,RUN,RUN .It was only an estimate and not a contract..


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## Ekka (Nov 11, 2006)

I'm yet to find a law that compels you to do business with anyone, bid expired or not.

Tell him to take a long walk off a short pier.

In future have an expiry date on your bids, like 30 days or something.


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## omegajim (Nov 11, 2006)

*not an expert, but here's my approach*

He and her are making me to do this job which I dont want to do because contract was never made. He didnt even ask me at the time of estimate for a expiration. My estimate expired because its valid for just 3 months but the problem is that it is not written on estimate...

You're not going to like this, but

1) contact a local attorney (if you're in a smaller town, you're in luck, otherwise this will be a pain)
2) explain the situation to the attorney
3) Explain to the attorney to contact Mr. pinhead that ANY BUSINESS TRANSACTION THAT WILL TAKE PLACE WILL GO THROUGH THE ATTORNEY.

That should shut him up. Unfortunately, it will cost 2 - 3 bills. :censored: 

but hey, I'm just from Wisconsin and I've heard of nonsense along these lines before in other kinds of work and the end result is both parties finish business through "legal channels."


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## JohN Dee (Nov 12, 2006)

Like Ekka said there arn't any laws that bind you to it(Here in Australia atleast). If you are still worried though tell him your booked out for the next 12 months and you can't get to him.

Last resort if it still goes on record the next 2 or 3 calls he makes to you, tell him that your recording it and tell him you can't do it - Now ring your local PD have the police warn him off harassing you if not charge him... Problem solved.

I really dispise people like that, so I really hope that helps you out.


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## twoodward15 (Nov 12, 2006)

Tell him you are booked and that you can do it on or around september 20th 2027. He is waiting in line like everyone else. You don't have a contract expiration on your contract, but you also never said when you would do the job. Give it right back to him. Did HE sign the contract yet? Doesn't he have to sign it to make it legal?


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## maxburton (Nov 12, 2006)

Your offer of a price meant if they signed, you are compelled to do the job. Get a lawyer or do the work. You should put expirations on your bids from now on.


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## trimmmed (Nov 12, 2006)

maxburton said:


> Your offer of a price meant if they signed, you are compelled to do the job. Get a lawyer or do the work. You should put expirations on your bids from now on.



I disagree, you need both *offer* and *acceptance* to bind the contract. He's not compelled to do squat.


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## JUDGE1162 (Nov 13, 2006)

OK first don't give an estimate for work that are too cheap for you to do the work? Not sure why you would do bussiness like that.

Second, ask him to send you a copy of the estimate, as you stated he does not have one, when he says he does not have one, let him know that since you had not heard from him in a while (act like you don't remember his job or the estimate) you threw out the estimate, remind him that it is was only an estimate and NOT a contract for work. That your estimates require the customer to accept the work within 90 days and that once the customer accepts the estimate, you will sit down with him and have them sign a contract for the work. Then offer to come and give him a new estimate which will now be $1200 to $1600 or whatever you feel is a good price (dont go up to much but go up a few hundred dollars. Tell him your prices had to go up due to the increased cost of fuel, insurance, equipment and when you gave him the first estimate that you were already in the area with another job that has now ended and you will now need to charge him for travel to his Site, which at $X and hour per worker, plus the cost to get the equipment there will cost an extra $X


The other option and might be the best one for you from a future bussiness point of view is honor the estimate you gave him, word of mouth is very powerful and he seems to have a big one. Like I read on another thread a happy customer tells the whole town a unhappy one tells the whole county. 

Call him up, tell him yes you will be happy to do his work for $800 estimate, remind him it is an estimate and give him a contractor to sign which states that the $800 is an estimate and assumes x, y, and z. If for some reason x, y, or z does not happen or can not happen the job will cost $X amount more. Items to include is the job will be done in 1 day, all cuttings, chippings, mulch ect will be left on site(if he would like you to take it with will cost $x for hauling and $x for disposal. That the job can be done with a certian type of equipment and can be done on a flexiable schedual when you have a crew ithat is not booked. Tell him you are booked for the next few weeks, months the rest of the season, when I get an opening and I have a crew in your area we will be happy to do your job.

When you truely have an open day at least you have work for them and I bet the $800 for the day would cover your costs even if the job is worth more. He gets his work done for the price you offered and it does not cost you money due to missing other work. 


In the future do not offer to do work at a price you are not willing to do the work for.


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## B-Edwards (Nov 13, 2006)

I wouldnt do it, BUT I have in the past did jobs i realized later that i had under priced . Sort of punishing myself for being stupid. I did this with a relative and when all was said and done i lost out big i worked hard for nothing. But if he ever wants another job done by me he will pay Full price with no breaks. At this point we will probly not be friends anymore , so the question is should we not be friends because i priced a job for near nothing and took a long time to get there and do it OR should we not be friends because i refuse to work for him for close to free. Dont answer the question i just asked in a reply, answer it for yourself.


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## jonseredbred (Nov 13, 2006)

eat it and do it, you are in a business to provide a service, you quoted the job, if it was too cheap shame on you. stop jerking the guy around, do the work, it gives all tree guys a bad name when you dont do work for your quoted amount.

just make sure he knows its COD, if you gotta work cheap make sure you get paid.


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## Blinky (Nov 13, 2006)

I wouldn't work with somebody like that even if they sued me. He's trying to play games and he thinks he's got you on a hook. This is exactly the kind of customer you DON'T want. He will make sure he gets the best of you... it's just sport to him.

Signing an estimate is just that... an estimate. It's not a binding contract to perform work. Perhaps if you did choose to do the job, you would be bound to the price if you quoted rather that estimated. Otherwise, there is nothing binding you to him legally.

Contact your phone company and file a complaint for harrassing phone calls.


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## arboralliance (Nov 13, 2006)

*We've all been here before...*



Mijic_Bogdan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am almost new to Tree Service. I started doing trees for about 1.5 years. This year I faced something that I really never expected to happen. I went to give an estimate for one tree to be cut down and bunch of other trees to be trimmed. This happened this year i the middle of May. When I told the owner what the price is he told me that he is just getting estimates at that time. All he asked me is to sign my estimate which I did but he never signed it to make a contact.
> 
> ...


Mijic_Bogdan,

I've been watching and reading...

Your potential client is blackmailing you into doing a job you under quoted, is this correct?

So not only is he blackmailing you but also taking advantage of the obvious fact you are new to the industry and have obviously under quoted and naturally need to readjust your quote...

What you do will have no effect on the industry or your peers. Anyone telling you to do this job for any reason is also subject to the same laws of blackmail and the repercussions...

You should not do anything you don't feel comfortable or safe doing...

I didn't want to enter this debate, I don't mean to offend anyone, I am saddened by the views of some of our associates and the fear and intimidation used to force you to work for slave wages or in unsafe conditions...

Mijic_Bogdan you have absolutely no obligation to do this job at the price you quoted, you can re-quote this job and you can also take out a restraining order to prevent further harassment from this person or their agents...

Please keep us updated with your progress, regards, Jarrah


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## Stumper (Nov 13, 2006)

Laugh at him. With a polite good humoured voice tell him that part of freedom is the right to refuse service to anyone and that A. since you gave a poorly figured estimate months ago you do not want the job now at that price. and B. Since he has been unpleasant you choose not to work for him for any price. Have a nice day.


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## musch (Nov 14, 2006)

Time to tell him to go F himself.
End of story.
There will always be people like this in business. Toughen up and get on with your life, otherwise, if you give in now, it will go on and on. 
Its like bullies in school. You take the first one down, and it gets easier after that.
Im not a lawyer, but you have no contract with the man. Guaranteed.


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## JayD (Nov 14, 2006)

*Old Under Estermated Quote*

Hi,
I remember sitting in on a semimar in the building industry years ago and they had one of there top lawyers/ Barrister there and he basically stated that any written agreement between two parties,where the ordinary man can understand signed by both parties forms the base contract that will stand in court,the only thing that sets aside a proper contract is stamp duty on it,if you have to do the job,rack it up to experience it will keep you honed and alert for future quotes,always put an expiry date on and if you think necessary a subject to clause..all this comes from a seminar I attended about ten years back,I do not claim to have any legal experience at all..with me once I agree to a job we do the job to the letter and most times a little more for good faith..Hope this Helps.
All the Best


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## musch (Nov 14, 2006)

WRONG.
He wrote an offer. 
The man did not accept the offer.
He withdrew the offer.
Now, MONTHS LATER the man is trying to get the same deal.
No court (in the US, anyways), would or could force him to do the work.
The guy is just a troublemaker, and I stand by what I said.
I guarantee you this. If you do the job now, the guy already has you marked as a sucker, and he won't pay you. Besides, you shouldn't compromise on your values.
This is like trying to go to a store and buy items for the sale price they had last Christmas. Ludicrious.


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## JayD (Nov 14, 2006)

*Wrong? I don't think so??. Your Opinion I value*

1/ He wrote an open ended quote:no expiry on it
2/The customer didn't refuse the quote:He didn't action it
3/There's no mention of withdrawing the quote.

Which brings you back to #1

If he has to do this work learn from it,allways time limit your quote,and subject to: whatever can bring you unstuck he'll learn this with time.

Now this customer is somewhat typical of the folk you meet doing this line of work,but this type of customer probably accounts for about 1 per cent of them,the good ones make up for them,what he needed to say as soon as the customer ID himself was that quote is old and I have to re-quote you as things change in 6 months this would have stopped it in it's tracks...this will work it's self out in the wash then we will be better informed,soon as they said there are recording this and you carry out a conversation with them anyway you are green lighting this as evidence..there being sneaky and there's more to it..ask to see the other quotes ring them up and see what went on you will probably find out the truth here.
All The Best


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## musch (Nov 15, 2006)

You missed the part I wrote about his withdrawing the offer prior to acceptance. 
He withdrew the offer upon or before the guy calling him, thus no contract.
Are you seriously telling me that the guy could come back 20 years later with a hand written quote, and demand the work be done?
Besides the fact, that he cant enforce the contract by forcing work to be done. There is no legal precedent for that.
Damages have to be proven, and in this instance, it is failure to reach an agreement. There are no damages, there is no contract.
This is like the opposite of buyers remorse.
This guy has no legal leg to stand on, and no moral one either.
Don't do the work, and if he continues to harrass you, you could even file a restraining order against HIM.
I don't know how stuff is done in Australia, honestly it might be different.
But up here? I know what I'm talking about.


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## JUDGE1162 (Nov 15, 2006)

I do have some contract background and write about 10 estimates, 5 or 6 proposals, and 2 or 3 contracts a day.

1. They are all diffrent an estimate is just that an estimate and is no way the finial price of a job, most estimates are written on a time and materials rates with an estimate in the amount of time it will take. This happens a lot with car repairs I estimate it will be $300 and it is $400 when you go to pick your car up because it took longer then they expected or they had to do more work then they expected. They have to get your approval for the extra fees by law in many states but in most cases if you do not approve the repair you still get charged the $300 plus the car still does not run.
2. A proposal is the next step up it says you agree to do a certian job for a set price, may also include a time and materials rates for extra work, example I agree to remove 5 trees for $5000 now no matter what happen you can only charge $5000, however if you need to remove 3 small trees to get to the 5 bigger trees, or if the owner wants the stumps ground, or anything else now you can charge extra money on a time and materials rates.
3. Both an estimate and a proposal are NOT contracts, they can be turned into contracts if both parties sign the estimate or proposal stating that you both agree to the terms of the estimate or proposal. A contract can be a stand alone document which now takes the pricing from an estimate or proposal and list them and all the terms and conditions. This is your best bet in most legal cases you first send a proposal for the work plain and simple do X work for $X, you can mail it to them ro fax it, if they agree tell them that a day or two before the works starts you'll stop by with a contract this is where all your terms and conditions are (i.e. you are no responsible for destroying their garden, their lawn, ect.; whatever your payment terms are and any late fees, what exactly is included in that price and if any basic things are not spell them out (hauling logs, stump removal, mulch and chipping disposal, removal of extra trees, grind stump to 5 inches not 8 inches, ect) your work hours and schedual (ie we do not work on sunday or we will be here at 8 am on saturday, we don't work in the rain, etc.)


So long story short, an estimate is not a contract until you turn it into one, which does not seem to be the case here, unless both parties sign the document it is not a contract. I sign every single proposal or estimate I send to someone it is not a contract until they sign it and return it to me. Also you are not bound by an estimate or a proposal until it is a contract, you can say sorry not interested in the job anymore, not the best business practice but it is legal.

You should include expiration dates on your proposals or estimates, even though they are not legally binding contracts it is just good business to tell someone how long they have to agree to the price and start the work (this is important too) you will get people who will sign a contract within you time period but will hold up starting the work, it has happened to me I agreed to a job then waited close to a year to start the job, because we had a signed contract and it did not limit the time frame to start work I got stuck doing a job at last years rates. My contracts now state that the work must start within 45 days on the signing of the contract of the pricing will be adjust for new costs.


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## northernmover (Nov 15, 2006)

I would NOT do this job. There will be more problems down the line, he will be unhappy with something that you do and will be a bigger headache. 

Check with a lawyer about your state laws, an estimate should be just that an ESTIMATE of what the job may cost. A BID would be a price that cannot change. I can't imagine that you are going to be required by law to work for this guy.

BTW; I wonder if this lady from the state was some bull:censored: that this guy used to intimidate you.


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## ciscoguy01 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Most companies*

Most have a policy of 30 day quotes. Stick with that dude. Have it in your bylaws man and ignore him or get the 1800 from him as the quote is over 30days old...


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## Mijic_Bogdan (Jan 5, 2007)

Thank You guys.. problem solved


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## arboralliance (Jan 6, 2007)

*Hey!*



Mijic_Bogdan said:


> Thank You guys.. problem solved



Please fill us in on how things went?


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## pbtree (Jan 6, 2007)

TP his house...


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## B-Edwards (Jan 7, 2007)

Don't leave us hanging, what happened, what did you decide to do? Most of the answers you got were correct. I could see you going either way and feeling good about it. These are the kinds of issues that start wars. Just kidding but seriously a debatable subject, let us know.


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## Mijic_Bogdan (Jan 7, 2007)

Since I was new in tree service business I decided to go and do the job for the guy because I didn't want to be sued even tho we never signed any contract and estimate was old. The good part is that I didn't do whole job for 800-900 which was worth a lot more. I just went and trimmed bunch of trees but didn't remove all dead branches since there was no leaves so the guy couldn't really tell if I did everything Ok. He treaded me bad and he got what he asked for:hmm3grin2orange:


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## l2edneck (Jan 7, 2007)

I have 30 days on mine,but also says i have the discrection to withdraw at any time for no reason.Basically you have the right to refuse service to anyone.


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## musch (Jan 7, 2007)

Mijic_Bogdan said:


> Since I was new in tree service business I decided to go and do the job for the guy because I didn't want to be sued even tho we never signed any contract and estimate was old. The good part is that I didn't do whole job for 800-900 which was worth a lot more. I just went and trimmed bunch of trees but didn't remove all dead branches since there was no leaves so the guy couldn't really tell if I did everything Ok. He treaded me bad and he got what he asked for:hmm3grin2orange:



Now THAT *is *actionable. You turned a no fault no damage situation into one he actually CAN go after you for. :bang: 
Not to mention that you admitted doing it on a public ISP! 
:bang:


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## neighborstree (Jan 7, 2007)

sounds like you'll end up doing the job and ot get paid anyways, do NOT do the work..tell the guy to call another company. it was only a estimate. signed by you. witch means you will honer your price if agreed apon by both parties. then put in contract form with a start and completion date. so basically tell the dude to go cut it down his self lol


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## beowulf343 (Jan 7, 2007)

Too late, he's already done the job-poorly. Handling situations this way give all treemen a bad name.


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## Mijic_Bogdan (Jan 7, 2007)

I was just tired of that guy and I just did the job. He said he was happy at the time job was done so what do you mean he can go after me now? By the time leaves start growing on trees will take few more months and I don't think he can go after me anymore?


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## B-Edwards (Jan 7, 2007)

Ok we all have to live and learn . I was hoping you either did the job or didnt do it. I hope you have done enough work for it to be fare. I learned a long time ago that in order for me to be able to sleep i have to do the right thing (at least in my mind) and not rationalize it to make it the right thing. That make sence? Anyway you gota be honest above everything else. I hope the guy is happy and you learned a lesson. Dont be insulted , we all have learned some lessons the hard way.


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## Mijic_Bogdan (Jan 7, 2007)

Thank you guys for help. At least I learned a lesson and next time will be much more careful


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## toscottm (Jan 21, 2007)

*Under Quoting: Some Thoughts*

Mijic,

Firstly, I'm not a lawyer and this is not qualified opinion. I have to say that as my work in insurance provides a familiarity to legal principles, however these thoughts are not to be construed as 'legal advice'.

As personal and general conversation only, I agree with the points of many here. You provided an 'estimate' that was not accepted in the limited timeframe of your 'offer'. As an 'estimate', it was also not a bid but a suggestion as to a ball-park cost. If this guy wanted a 'guarantee', he should have asked for a 'bid' and required this to be supported with a 'bid bond' (usually to be followed with a performance bond). 

The point of this man harrassing you with repeated phone calls after you have asked him to cease is also a reasonable concern. A civil society does not permit threats (being sued) and related stresses to be inflicted upon one another. Informing the police will either get him to take the action he threatens (and you would then find out if you were indeed legally wrong and should own up to any 'obligation' if there is found to be) or it will get rid of him once and for all. Why allow this person to have power (control over your frustration, etc.)? Get the police involved and you likely will never hear from him again. 

Of course, there is also the concern if he 'knows where to find you' (i.e. vandalism of your vehicles of equipment). He sounds like an ass. It's too bad things have gone this far. Sometimes it might have been better to have just done the work and absorbed your losses before he got hot under the collar. Lesson learned is to avoid making enemies, however now that you have one, get rid of him. You surely don't need this in your life.

Best Wishes!

Scott


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## kiwi inpomyland (Jan 23, 2007)

hey bro,just been reading your dilemma,we have all been where you have been,i have had it in nz uk aus,strange people everywhere,the problem i have is that you had 2 options,do it or dont!you opted to do it that was your call he reallisticaly couldnt have made you complete the work,however because you chose to complete the work and by your admission in a sub-standard fashion you may have opened a can of worms!!i personnaly would not have worked for him but would have fobbed him off,yet if i chose to undertake the job although it may hurt i would have gone the opposite and given him no reason to ????? about the standard of work done and taken a photo as evidence,this guy could really do your rep some harm if he is the sort we all think he is.in future take more time on the quote,build a raport with the client that way you can gage what he is like,love the one your with.when ever i get a bad feeling about a client and go against my better judgement it always bites me in the a**
all the best


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## beaverb01 (Apr 7, 2007)

*CAP Always Applies*

My proposals have 30 day expiration date stated in black and white on the document. You signed the estimate, he did not, therefore non-binding. You do not have to do the job, for any rate. Some people like jerking others around. You should have told him sorry, you do not have a legally binding contract and if you continue harassing me I will be forced to contact the authorities. Did HE sign your estimate before you did the work? Do you have a copy of the completed (both signatures present) estimate? If not, by doing the job you have put yourself into a bent-over position. If something had happened during the course of the job (accident or injury) would your insurance company have covered you without a binding contract? Hopefully, you'll never hear from this jackass ever again! ALWAYS "CAP"! (cover the anal passage) Even when your gut tells you this person is OK, you never know for sure. If you need to, contact a lawyer and pay him for an hour of his time to help you come up with a document that will provide the above referenced CAP. It will help you sleep better and be worth the expense. Good luck and work safe!

Beaver


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## builttoughf350 (Apr 13, 2007)

WOW. 

i cant believe how cold some of you are to a new guy in the business. 

havent any of you UNDER BID a job before? i do it once in a while. i cant name a single tree business owner thats successful who wont deny underbidding some here and there. theres so many factors and not one job is the same as the next. if you DONT underbid from time to time, youll find yourself NOT getting work, cause theres someone out there whos going to bid lower than you and get the job. i do free estimates for my customers, but i dont LIKE doing free estimates- i want the work. 

youre saying hes giving a bad name to everyone etc. this "customer" of his has been harrassing him and playing mind games ETC. how can he sue the tree guy? estimate signed or not, there is no contract or deadline signed. IMO the customer is the bad guy here. 

i would have never worked for that guy. odds are, this guy could do the greatest job in the world for the customer and still get bad referrals from the customer. if the customer even has friends to spout off to... 

its just one job, you cant win them all. keep your spirit up new guy- i can usually weed out the bad customers during the estimates and tell who ill enjoy working for, and who ill walk from or give a high bid to. and im doing pretty dang good in my business at my young age.

ever see those signs in businesses that say "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" ??


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## ropensaddle (Apr 13, 2007)

*yeah*

Like every time is under bid but they wont pay what its worth here
800.00 is a large difficult take down and clean up here that includes stump!
I have done work for peanuts but bottom line my customers are happy and I have work! Reputation is all we have in this biz and I take it seriously.
Having said that the bbb is a good source of finding out what your clients
think of you and I so far have a spotless record and am a member. They
can also help in threats and some of what you experienced ! Sorry for
your trouble and did seem weird that he did not just get someone else
but if you made him happy at least he may not mouth you!!!!!


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## Rftreeman (Apr 15, 2007)

Mijic_Bogdan said:


> I was just tired of that guy and I just did the job. He said he was happy at the time job was done so what do you mean he can go after me now? ?


did he sign off that he was happy, I always get a sign off that the cust agrees to the work listed will be done for the price listed then when I am done and they say they are "happy" I get them too sign and date my copy of the original invoice that they are satisfied with the work, that covers me butt.

oh yeah, I have under bid stuff many times, it's called lack of experience, I don't any more though.


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