# I want to improve my climbing rig



## Carburetorless (Mar 6, 2012)

I've been using a split tail with a Blake's hitch, and a foot loop for ascent/decent. The Blake's works real well for ascent, but it tends to hang up on decent, so much so that I sometimes have to hang from the knot with both hands and thrust all my weight downward just to get it moving again. Needless to say, that's inefficient.

It's time that I replace my rope, and I want to improve my ascent/decent method while I'm at it, so...

I'm thinking of getting some 1/2" Sterling HTP for a rope. I'm really sold on a 100% polyester rope. The only thing I'm unsure of with the HTP is that I've heard that it doesn't knot very well, but I want to get a large Petzl I'D to use with it so maybe the knotting won't be much of an issue.

I have a couple of question regarding this setup.


Can the Petzl I'D be used for ascent as easily as a Blake's hitch?
How does the HTP perform?


Thanks


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## tree md (Mar 6, 2012)

I cannot comment on the Petzl ID or the HTP but I can tell you this: I never liked a Blake's hitch or a tautline. You should try using an open prussic. Depending on your size, you will want to either tie it with 2 coils on the bottom, two on top or three coils on the bottom and two on top if you are a heavier climber.. When I climbed on a traditional rig the open prussic is all I would use. It runs so much smoother than a blake's hitch or tautline.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 6, 2012)

tree md said:


> I cannot comment on the Petzl ID or the HTP but I can tell you this: I never liked a Blake's hitch or a tautline. You should try using an open prussic. Depending on your size, you will want to either tie it with 2 coils on the bottom, two on top or three coils on the bottom and two on top if you are a heavier climber.. When I climbed on a traditional rig the open prussic is all I would use. It runs so much smoother than a blake's hitch or tautline.



I'll give it a try.

Do you have a pic of the open prussic, I can't find directions on how to tie it. 

What rope are you using it on, and what size and type line should it be tied with?

Thanks


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## tree md (Mar 6, 2012)

I've used it on Safety Blue, True Blue, Arbormaster and Poison Ivy and it has run smoothly with all. I don't have any rope in the house but I'll tie one and take a pic to post on the job tomorrow. I am teaching this knot to my new prospect climber anyway so I'll definitely be tying one tomorrow.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 6, 2012)

tree md said:


> I've used it on Safety Blue, True Blue, Arbormaster and Poison Ivy and it has run smoothly with all. I don't have any rope in the house but I'll tie one and take a pic to post on the job tomorrow. I am teaching this knot to my new prospect climber anyway so I'll definitely be tying one tomorrow.



The name "Open" Prussic makes me think that it's an AutoBlock(a.k.a French Prussic), where you rap the lanyard around the rope a few times, then clip the ends into a biner.

Like this...







...Is that the same thing?

I look forward to the pic, 

Thanks


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## tree md (Mar 7, 2012)

Open just means that it is tied with an open ended line instead of a prussic loop. It's just a plain Jane prussic tied on the end of your climbing line or with a split tail.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

tree md said:


> Open just means that it is tied with an open ended line instead of a prussic loop. It's just a plain Jane prussic tied on the end of your climbing line or with a split tail.



I'm gonna need that pic.


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## pdqdl (Mar 7, 2012)

A taut-line hitch (as taught by the Boy Scouts) is two under, and one over. Most climbers do two under and two over. The critical difference from a prussic (open or closed) is that the wraps on the prussic are in opposite direction around the rope, whereas the taut-line continues around the rope in the same direction.

I haven't ever noticed that a Blake's binds up, unless it is not tied properly. My early attempts with a Blake's would bind up badly...because that was exactly how I was tying it. Badly!

Put up a pic of your Blake's, and we might be able to help you out real quick.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I haven't ever noticed that a Blake's binds up, unless it is not tied properly. My early attempts with a Blake's would bind up badly...because that was exactly how I was tying it. Badly!
> 
> Put up a pic of your Blake's, and we might be able to help you out real quick.



It might be the rope I'm using.

I've been using a Technora type rope that I traded up for an antenna install, I traded 30 minutes work for around $400 worth of rope.

It's a diamond braid, a little stiff with a lot of grip.

I'm gonna have to replace my digi cam so I can take some pics.


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## beastmaster (Mar 7, 2012)

What application are you thinking of using sterling HTP for? As a general climbing line I don't think it would work out to well. It a static line. Great for repelling or accessing a tree on a mechanical device. But the same traits that make it good for those chores, make it a poor rope for working a tree.IMHO 
In case of a fall you want a little give. HTP is a little stiff also. There are better choices I feel. I see HTP as a specially line. Great for what it is designed for. I want 250ft of it my self for accessing tall trees. But for that I would use 10 or 9.5mm.
I never used the ID, but I use the heck out of a gri gri and its pretty sluggish with a 1/2 line. 
In the last 5 years I've graduated from using the tail of my climbing line with a taut hitch, to a split tail and blakes with a pulley, to a three holed hitch climber pulley and a VT on a closed sytem using all carabiners to connect every thing. Each move was like a quantum
leap. 
Climbing lines I have gone from safety blue(I used for years)to trying and liking other better performing climbing lines. I use all 11mm or 11.5 lines now also. 
There is a short learning curve every time you change up. But well worth getting use to. I can hardly climb with out a pulley to advance my knot now.
Don't get me started on SRT. The only way to access trees(unless you have a wraptor)


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> What application are you thinking of using sterling HTP for? As a general climbing line I don't think it would work out to well. It a static line. Great for repelling or accessing a tree on a mechanical device. But the same traits that make it good for those chores, make it a poor rope for working a tree.IMHO
> In case of a fall you want a little give. HTP is a little stiff also. There are better choices I feel. I see HTP as a specially line. Great for what it is designed for. I want 250ft of it my self for accessing tall trees. But for that I would use 10 or 9.5mm.
> I never used the ID, but I use the heck out of a gri gri and its pretty sluggish with a 1/2 line.
> In the last 5 years I've graduated from using the tail of my climbing line with a taut hitch, to a split tail and blakes with a pulley, to a three holed hitch climber pulley and a VT on a closed sytem using all carabiners to connect every thing. Each move was like a quantum
> ...



I like the HTP because of it's strength, plus it's 100% polyester.

I have been looking at some 1/2" access/rescue line, it has a polyester sheath with a nylon core, has a tensile strength of 10,000 lbs, weighs 7 lbs/100ft, and has more stretch to it. The same rope in 7/16 has a tensile strength of 7,800 lbs and a weight of 5.4 lbs/100ft, but it's intended for light use whereas the 1/2" is for general use. I'm not sure what the difference between general and light use is other than general is stronger; Where do you draw the line between what's strong enough to work on and what's not?

My want of the HTP is two fold, I want it for an access line for tree work, and as a decent line, along with a dynamic rope as a safety line, for window washing. 

I think I'll end up with 3 ropes, the HTP, the access/rescue line, and a dynamic line.

Rope size is a bit of dilemma for me, I like the idea of a lighter rope, but at the same time I like the idea of a beefier rope. I think the extra pound and a half of weight is a good trade off for the extra strength, so I'll prolly go with the 1/2" for the working lines and the 7/16" for the dynamic/safety.

I've never had to test my rope during a fall, but your suggestion of using something with a little give to it makes a lot of sense, the rescue sounds like it's a cross between an access line and a dynamic line, so I'll give it a try.


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## bootboy (Mar 7, 2012)

Im fairly new to tree climbing but I use 7/16 (11mm) htp for getting in the tree . I always SRT my way up and depending on the type of work I'm doing I'll either stay SRT with a grigri or switch to DRT with a distel hitch if I'm going to be moving around a lot. I come from a climbing and search and rescue back round and just feel comfortable with kernmantle rope and petzl hardware. Just feels more familiar.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 7, 2012)

The htp rope is designed for srt only. it wont work good for drt. Get a piece of xtc or safety blue. The difference be general / light use is the NFPA rating on rope for rescue purposes. NFPA safety factors are higher then normal rope ( think the safety factor is 15:1). General rated rope is rated for up to a 600 lb working load ( 2 people).General use life safety rope must have a breaking strength of at least 40kn (8992lbf) and a diameter between 13mm (1/2") and 16mm (5/8"). Light use, is for single person load, 300 lbs. Light use life safety rope must have a breaking strength of at least 20kn (4496lbf) and a diameter between 9.5mm (3/8") and 13mm (1/2"). You will find out ropes of this type are alot harder to tie knots in them. The sheath is alot tighter on it so its alot stiffer. In my opinion it will carmalize the sheath alot quicker too.

I also had problems with a blakes hitch binding up. My problem was when i wanted to accend it was locked real tight. I switched to a vt and like it alot. I recently bought a lock jack, and i am still getting used to it, but i only use it in certain situations.

As far as the ID goes. DONT buy it to accend unless you want to have to put a pully in above the ID. Plus it is not rated for 1/2" rope anymore. I bought it when it first came out thinking it was gonna be the cats ass, well I was greatly disappointed. Mine hasnt came out of my bag for 2 years now. I called petzel about how hard it was to accend with, they told me it was because i wasnt using there rope. They sent me a 100' piece of there 1/2" rope. It didnt really make much of a difference. It is a great tool if you are desending, but you can accend with it worth a ####. If you still want one, i will sell mine cheap.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> The htp rope is designed for srt only. it wont work good for drt. Get a piece of xtc or safety blue. The difference be general / light use is the NFPA rating on rope for rescue purposes. NFPA safety factors are higher then normal rope ( think the safety factor is 15:1).



The rescue rope's specs stated that the NFPA safety factor is 15:1

The specs on it are...


NFPA Tensile Strength: 10,000 lbf.
WLL: 667 lbs
NFPA Rating: General Use 
NFPA 10% Elongation: 6.8 %
Elongation at failure: 21%
Weight / 100 ft.: 7.0 lbs.


I don't know, but maybe a little too springy?

I had thought about getting some BlueStreak, I like the extra strength, the elongation is less(2.2% @540lbs), and it's a little heavier. Is this a good rope for drt?

I really need to get in some drt practice. Off the top of my head it seems the biggest advantage of using drt is that it reduces the load on the crotch, I can see how that would be beneficial when working out near the ends of branches.




> General rated rope is rated for up to a 600 lb working load ( 2 people).General use life safety rope must have a breaking strength of at least 40kn (8992lbf) and a diameter between 13mm (1/2") and 16mm (5/8"). Light use, is for single person load, 300 lbs. Light use life safety rope must have a breaking strength of at least 20kn (4496lbf) and a diameter between 9.5mm (3/8") and 13mm (1/2"). You will find out ropes of this type are alot harder to tie knots in them. The sheath is alot tighter on it so its alot stiffer. In my opinion it will carmalize the sheath alot quicker too.



I've used similar ropes for rappelling, I noticed that they get glazed if you do a lot of high speed stuff.



> I also had problems with a blakes hitch binding up. My problem was when i wanted to accend it was locked real tight. I switched to a vt and like it alot. I recently bought a lock jack, and i am still getting used to it, but i only use it in certain situations.



I don't have much problem with it ascending, it slides up pretty well, but being a stiff rope it seems to put a crook in it's self and wants to wrap around and tighten when descending.



> As far as the ID goes. DONT buy it to accend unless you want to have to put a pully in above the ID. Plus it is not rated for 1/2" rope anymore. I bought it when it first came out thinking it was gonna be the cats ass, well I was greatly disappointed. Mine hasnt came out of my bag for 2 years now. I called petzel about how hard it was to accend with, they told me it was because i wasnt using there rope. They sent me a 100' piece of there 1/2" rope. It didnt really make much of a difference. It is a great tool if you are desending, but you can accend with it worth a ####. If you still want one, i will sell mine cheap.



I can put it to good use doing window drops. 

Which I'D do you have, there are a couple of models. PM me with your model and asking price.

Thanks


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## Buzzkill (Mar 7, 2012)

i had the same problem with the blakes hitch when i started monkeyin with it and have moved on to VT, but id recommend working out that kink. after you dress the knot try sitting back in your saddle and pulling the running end coming out of the knot at the same time to set it. Blake's Hitch - YouTube this helped me and wasnt discussed anywhere else i looked. gl


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## TreeAce (Mar 7, 2012)

If this helps....I found that a blakes was VERY poor on my tachyon line. An ocean 10mm eye to eye is great. I like a distel. But I have never had a problem with a blakes with any other rope. Only the tachyon. I prefer the bluemoon/poisin ivy but I still like the tachyon to.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

Buzzkill said:


> i had the same problem with the blakes hitch when i started monkeyin with it and have moved on to VT, but id recommend working out that kink. after you dress the knot try sitting back in your saddle and pulling the running end coming out of the knot at the same time to set it. Blake's Hitch - YouTube this helped me and wasnt discussed anywhere else i looked. gl



That's something I've been doing to get it to hold my weight, I pull the tail where my figure 8 stopper knot is to set the knot, after that it works well enough, it's after I start descending that it heats up and gets tight.

I beginning to believe it's the rope I'm using more than anything.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

TreeAce said:


> If this helps....I found that a blakes was VERY poor on my tachyon line. An ocean 10mm eye to eye is great. I like a distel. But I have never had a problem with a blakes with any other rope. Only the tachyon. I prefer the bluemoon/poisin ivy but I still like the tachyon to.



Is the tachyon a hard rope? The rope I've been using is hard through to the core, so there's no contraction and expansion going on, it just tightens up and get tighter as it heats up. 

I think a more pliable rope would solve a lot of the problem.


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## beastmaster (Mar 7, 2012)

If you want to come out of the tree fast, and keep your rope from glazing use a figure 8 or other device. You can back it with a hitch if you like.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 7, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> If you want to come out of the tree fast, and keep your rope from glazing use a figure 8 or other device. You can back it with a hitch if you like.



I've considered using an 8, or even a rappel rack. 

I haven't heard much about the Uniscender; Anyone ever use it?

What I really want to be able to do is descend immediately, in a smooth seamless motion, without having to do a change over, but I'm prolly preaching to the quire now.


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## TreeAce (Mar 7, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Is the tachyon a hard rope? The rope I've been using is hard through to the core, so there's no contraction and expansion going on, it just tightens up and get tighter as it heats up.
> 
> I think a more pliable rope would solve a lot of the problem.



I wouldn't consider Tachyon to be a "hard" rope. IDK why it doesnt like a blakes. But I find that it doesnt.


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## pdqdl (Mar 7, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I...
> I haven't heard much about the Uniscender; Anyone ever use it?
> 
> What I really want to be able to do is descend immediately, in a smooth seamless motion, without having to do a change over, but I'm prolly preaching to the quire now.



I have never used it, but there are some folks here that have. I understand that it works well for both Drt & Srt, ascending and descending with no transition required.

It looks a bit clunky and cumbersome to me, and I believe the metal spools in the middle are prone to wearing out, which requires periodic replacement.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 7, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> What I really want to be able to do is descend immediately, in a smooth seamless motion, without having to do a change over, but I'm prolly preaching to the quire now.



'Choir'.
Anyway, how fast and smooth do you wanna go?
Beast told you what to do.
Jeff


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## tree md (Mar 7, 2012)

Open prussic tied with a stopper knot on the end. I climbed on this knot with a traditional, closed system for many years. In the configuration I mentioned, I would pull around 6' of tail from my running end, tie two half hitches in my D, tie the prussic and finish with the stopper knot. Some like to keep a snap tied in with about 6 feet of line to tie the friction hitch which will pretty much make it an open climbing system. It can also be tied with a split tail, which I did for a few years as well. It can also be tied with an eye to eye. Very versatile knot, can be used with pretty much any configuration and runs much smoother than a blakes or tautline in my experience.


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## reese2011 (Mar 7, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I'll give it a try.
> 
> Do you have a pic of the open prussic, I can't find directions on how to tie it.
> 
> ...



if you go to you tube and search arbor pod there alot of informational ways to tie different styles of friction hitches. also in sherril tree there are some pics of friction hitches. all works well if your a visual person. 2nd edition of the tree climber companion is a great reference book as well. hope this helps.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 8, 2012)

*hitches*

You can modify the blakes for different ropes. Using the same rope to ty hitch. More slic the rope just three turns and one under will grab best. Velocity and more sticky type ropes, three turns and under two. I'll do some pics Thursday. The I'D will work in DRT but will slow you down. Works best in a SRT mode of climbing. I've got a large and small one around here somewhere. The Rig, Eddy, Unicender and Grigri will be smaller than the I'D. Some of these can be found on E-bay for good prices. The Uni doesnt work in a RADS mode very well. Just type in the advanced search your key word. Tons on good info there. Climb on...


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## beastmaster (Mar 8, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> What I really want to be able to do is descend immediately, in a smooth seamless motion, without having to do a change over, but I'm prolly preaching to the quire now.[/QUOTE
> 
> While surfing you tube a few days ago I saw a new twist on a RAD's system. Still using a gri gri(or rig, id, etc.)but in place of a hand ascender he used a Vt(I think) hook to a pulley. He would advance the Vt to move up like you do with a hand ascender and pulley. Here's the twist. He ran a tether from the top of the Vt to his belt(Can't remember what he used to do this, but I can think of lots)
> so now when he descended using the gri gri the tether would pull the Vt and pulley down with him, so it was always in hand reach and didn't need to be removed. I can't find the Video again.
> kind of fits the bill of immediate switch from ascend to descend. In all fairness I haven't tryed this, but plan on giving it a go. A rope wrench would maybe fit what you are looking for. Hi tech, low tech. I like that.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 8, 2012)

*set up*

Beastmaster, I tried what you saw in the vid. Once I get past 3 to 4 things for climb setup. You just have so much clutter hanging in front of you. Coming from the Blakes tied with tail of rope. Biner, rope, and hitch tied. Maybe a pulley under hitch for advancement. Simple and no clutter. Messed with the Eye to Eye prussics for a short time. To much set back and still in DRT mode. Moved to mechanic hitches. SRT. Unicender has to much lenght and dont work well in RADS. Tried the Id and Eddy. Bothe lever action with panic mode for lockup. You will get tired slipping into the panic feature real quick. Have to go to 11mm rope or smaller for the Grigri to work real smooth. The larger rope will create friction in the device. With the grigri, handled petzl acender with attached footloop, biner with pulley in top hole for RADS, and rope wrench for one handed descents. You leave the handle ascender in open cam mode-it just follow you down. Flip the cam to work position and up. Works best with rope wrench in there. Let me find some pics for ya. Climb on...


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 8, 2012)

*pics of blakes*

Modified blakes. 3 wrap and one under for slick ropes. And 3 wrap and two under normal ropes. Manage attachments not allowing pics at this time!


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 8, 2012)

*pics*

Here are 2 pics.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 8, 2012)

*The REAL pic I meant to send*

Try this again!


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 8, 2012)

*pics of rads*

Pic without the ropewrench. Just stick the wrench in the middle. Ascender will ride down with wrench in open cam mode. Climb on...


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 8, 2012)

Carburatorless,
I am pretty old school (or dense) the guy that taught me in the late 80's used the open prusik 3 under 2 over and I started with that and actually tyed it backwards once and liked the tail on the out side to pull for the brake, and eventually crossed it which made it a 3/2 tauntline which I used for many years do to isolation, and working solo, and have only used the split tail a little over a year and found that the blakes hitch is the best while in the tree but would heat up on long decents, the hot spot is where the tail is tucked back up through the lowest two turns, I use a 16 strand 1/2" green stripe rope with a 12mm blaze split tail w/grizzly splice and it seems to work pretty well, the trick for me is "carburating" (pun intended) the rope intake with the fingers on top of the blakes hitch, the tendency to twist to brake had to be over come as I used to do w/ taunt line, but the smaller diameter split tail than the climbing line grabs a lot more sensetive which in turn takes a more sensitive actuation, you may try a closer matched split tail/climbing line diameter, to me it seemed the smaller split tails and the eye to eye bee lines grabed and glazed way to easy,on decents. for same sized harder rope the 3/3 tauntline worked good coming down the big 100' pines in east texas in 05, but then again I was closed system so I would just cut off the glazed part and re-tye my snap when the turns would glaze. The three and three for long desents spread the friction out and gave a perfect hand hold to avoid rope burn to hands, the blakes is alot better in climbing spread out trees and limb walking, and for DRT accents as the VT on beeline took to much re setting and the eye to eye prusic grabed way to hard especially with a friction saver up top. The less friction at TIP the more friction at hitch so I had to keep that in mind too,
Paul


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> 'Choir'.
> Anyway, how fast and smooth do you wanna go?
> Beast told you what to do.
> Jeff



Yeah, a rescue 8 would work, but again I'd have to do a change over.

What about the Gri Gri; I've looked at the Gri Gri in shops and ran rope through it, seems easy enough to pull the slack through(I'm wondering if the I'D works as well), and if you keep the tail of the rope pulled and sit in in your harness it ought to grab the rope.

Seems about the same as using an 8 except you don't have to do the change over.

What do you think?


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

tree md said:


> Open prussic tied with a stopper knot on the end. I climbed on this knot with a traditional, closed system for many years. In the configuration I mentioned, I would pull around 6' of tail from my running end, tie two half hitches in my D, tie the prussic and finish with the stopper knot. Some like to keep a snap tied in with about 6 feet of line to tie the friction hitch which will pretty much make it an open climbing system. It can also be tied with a split tail, which I did for a few years as well. It can also be tied with an eye to eye. Very versatile knot, can be used with pretty much any configuration and runs much smoother than a blakes or tautline in my experience.



That sort of looks like an upside down Scwab, well more like a prussic with one less rap on the top; Do you descend on it the same way as with a Blake's?

BTW; Is that Poison Ivy?

Thanks for posting that


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

reese2011 said:


> if you go to you tube and search arbor pod there alot of informational ways to tie different styles of friction hitches. also in sherril tree there are some pics of friction hitches. all works well if your a visual person. 2nd edition of the tree climber companion is a great reference book as well. hope this helps.



I was going to pick a copy of TTCC today, but I got busy looking for climbing shops.

Thanks for the tip


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Carburetorless said:
> 
> 
> > What I really want to be able to do is descend immediately, in a smooth seamless motion, without having to do a change over, but I'm prolly preaching to the quire now.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> Here are 2 pics.



O.K. looks like you rapped the opposite way that I do, and came around behind the loop, then up through the turns with the tail.

That must be a stopper knot a see running across that tail.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Carburatorless,
> I am pretty old school (or dense) the guy that taught me in the late 80's used the open prusik 3 under 2 over and I started with that and actually tyed it backwards once and liked the tail on the out side to pull for the brake, and eventually crossed it which made it a 3/2 tauntline which I used for many years do to isolation, and working solo, and have only used the split tail a little over a year and found that the blakes hitch is the best while in the tree but would heat up on long decents, the hot spot is where the tail is tucked back up through the lowest two turns, I use a 16 strand 1/2" green stripe rope with a 12mm blaze split tail w/grizzly splice and it seems to work pretty well, the trick for me is "carburating" (pun intended) the rope intake with the fingers on top of the blakes hitch, the tendency to twist to brake had to be over come as I used to do w/ taunt line, but the smaller diameter split tail than the climbing line grabs a lot more sensetive which in turn takes a more sensitive actuation, you may try a closer matched split tail/climbing line diameter, to me it seemed the smaller split tails and the eye to eye bee lines grabed and glazed way to easy,on decents. for same sized harder rope the 3/3 tauntline worked good coming down the big 100' pines in east texas in 05, but then again I was closed system so I would just cut off the glazed part and re-tye my snap when the turns would glaze. The three and three for long desents spread the friction out and gave a perfect hand hold to avoid rope burn to hands, the blakes is alot better in climbing spread out trees and limb walking, and for DRT accents as the VT on beeline took to much re setting and the eye to eye prusic grabed way to hard especially with a friction saver up top. The less friction at TIP the more friction at hitch so I had to keep that in mind too,
> Paul



I noticed my Blake's glazing in the same spot. Just that one little spot about the size of a dime, makes me glad I'm on Polyester.

I'm going to give some of the other hitches a try, and some the mechanical stuff too.

Thanks


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## tree md (Mar 8, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> That sort of looks like an upside down Distal, well more like a prussic with one less rap on the top; Do you descend on it the same way as with a Blake's?
> 
> BTW; Is that Poison Ivy?



Prussic refers to the way the knot is tied, actually they are all different configurations of a prussic. I have always heard this one referred to as a plain prussic. You can add or subtract coils as needed. The three under, two over has worked best for me in past years as a climbing hitch. Back when I was 165 pounds I used two under, two over. It descends the same as a blakes or any other friction hitch only it runs a lot smoother than a blakes or tautline hitch. However, I have been using a better option in the past 3 years or so.

Yes, that is an old PI line that has been relegated to a tag line now.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 8, 2012)

Not Real clear to me whether you are climbing SRT or DdRT, but it sounds like SRT. Never found a friction hitch that would work well on SRT. Really like the I'D for SRT descent. 2treeornot2tree pm me, you sell cheap I buy. I use the large one, find it works equally well for me on HTP, Blaze, Ivy, Blue Streak, or Spearment. I dont mind the changeover, I leave a Revolver ($28.95 Sherrill Page 85) in the outside hole of my top ascender, hang on my top ascender, install my I'D below the top ascender, bring the rope tail through the Revolver to make a RADS, pull up to take slack in the I'D, release to weight the I'D, remove top ascender (or leave it on and use it as a RADS), Descend I'D or work RADS. Great system for working 100 foot pines with 60 feet of clear bole.

HTP Great SRT, sucks DdRT. Ivy pretty good SRT and DdRT, but cover soft, picks easily, glazes easily, wears out quick. Blue Streak good DdRT, sucks SRT. Tonight I'm buying 200 more feet of Blaze. Good SRT (but not as good as HTP), Good DdRT (but not as good as Ivy), Tough, long life, just a real good compromise for the two climbing styles.

Never saw Blakes that could not be dresssed properly to work well on DdRT. Got to fool with number and placement of wraps to customize for your body weight and climbing style. But again, Sucks SRT.

Figure 8 fun, but no autolocking features for safety, and twists rope badly on long descents. GrisGris very good, but has a real "Fine" sweet spot. Too Much Pull Too Fast, not enough locks off. Works well on a RADS, but needs that "Friction Hand" behind it. I've burned up a couple pair of gloves. Again, Really Like the I'D for descent and RADS.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

tree md said:


> Prussic refers to the way the knot is tied, actually they are all different configurations of a prussic. I have always heard this one referred to as a plain prussic. You can add or subtract coils as needed. The three under, two over has worked best for me in past years as a climbing hitch. Back when I was 165 pounds I used two under, two over. It descends the same as a blakes or any other friction hitch only it runs a lot smoother than a blakes or tautline hitch. However, I have been using a better option in the past 3 years or so.
> 
> Yes, that is an old PI line that has been relegated to a tag line now.



I tried that hitch with my current rope which is really stiff, the only way I can get it to stop is by pulling up on the tail of the upper coil, and the only way to get it to release is by pulling down on the upper coil. 

I need a more pliable rope. 

That PI looks like it takes the knot real well. Do they make it in 7/16/11mm?

Also; Do you use it as a work line, or just as a climbing line?


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## tree md (Mar 8, 2012)

Well, I am not sure what kind of line you are using but that knot has worked well for me on any arborist rope I have used it on for the past 20 years. Sounds like your rope is the problem with the hitches you are trying to use. If you are having to pull down a coil or do anything like that the line is not taking the knot well or you are not dressing it properly. 

Yes, I use that old line for light duty lowering and as a tag line. It was taken out of service for climbing 2 years ago.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

Fireaxman said:


> Not Real clear to me whether you are climbing SRT or DdRT, but it sounds like SRT. Never found a friction hitch that would work well on SRT. Really like the I'D for SRT descent. 2treeornot2tree pm me, you sell cheap I buy. I use the large one, find it works equally well for me on HTP, Blaze, Ivy, Blue Streak, or Spearment. I dont mind the changeover, I leave a Revolver ($28.95 Sherrill Page 85) in the outside hole of my top ascender, hang on my top ascender, install my I'D below the top ascender, bring the rope tail through the Revolver to make a RADS, pull up to take slack in the I'D, release to weight the I'D, remove top ascender (or leave it on and use it as a RADS), Descend I'D or work RADS. Great system for working 100 foot pines with 60 feet of clear bole.
> 
> HTP Great SRT, sucks DdRT. Ivy pretty good SRT and DdRT, but cover soft, picks easily, glazes easily, wears out quick. Blue Streak good DdRT, sucks SRT. Tonight I'm buying 200 more feet of Blaze. Good SRT (but not as good as HTP), Good DdRT (but not as good as Ivy), Tough, long life, just a real good compromise for the two climbing styles.
> 
> ...



I tried to get 2TONT2T to give me his price, but he hasn't responded, maybe he changed his mind.

I'm considering either a gri gri or the I'D, the I'D has the anti-panic function, so no burned gloves. But shouldn't the gri gri grab the rope if you let go of the handle? 

For rope I'm almost sold on the PI. I've been climbing SRT, but I'm looking towards going with a double style for limb walking.


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## tree md (Mar 8, 2012)

Well, like Fireaxe said, you are not going to find any friction hitch that will work well on a single line. Most traditional climber's might enter the tree SRT, but most like to work on a doubled line. I know I do.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 8, 2012)

tree md said:


> Well, like Fireaxe said, you are not going to find any friction hitch that will work well on a single line. Most traditional climber's might enter the tree SRT, but most like to work on a doubled line. I know I do.



What kind of setup are you working with?


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 9, 2012)

*single rope*

Some ropes are more for mountain or cave use. Tying knot in these will be a problem. Mechanical devices will work with these ropes. Like Tree MD said adding or subtracting wraps will custimize the hitch or prussic. Thanks for the pic Tree MD.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> Some ropes are more for mountain or cave use. Tying knot in these will be a problem. Mechanical devices will work with these ropes. Like Tree MD said adding or subtracting wraps will custimize the hitch or prussic. Thanks for the pic Tree MD.



I looked at some Sterling ropes, 7/16ths HTP, they're pretty stiff, actually a lot beefier than I expected for a 7/16ths rope, but too stiff to tie easily.

I looked at some rescue rope in a 3/8ths it was actually pretty knotable, and the strength(5397 lbs) wasn't bad for a smaller rope. I almost bought it, but one of my must haves in a rope is the ability to perform a pick off if needed, and I think the 3/8ths is just a little light. The larger diameter in the same rope though has a tighter weave in the sheath, so.

The biggest problem I'm having in finding the right rope is the fact that the shops that sell rope all have a small selection of rope, and most of them cater to rock climbers, so most of their selection is dynamic rope with a few static ropes thrown in here and there.

I'd like to find a place that has a demo set up with the entire line of climbing ropes rigged and ready to try out, but none of the shops around here have anything near that. 

I'm planning a trip to FootSloggers, they have a climbing tower, and maybe I can get in some time on some of the gear I've been looking at.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 9, 2012)

Looked it up on the Web, FootSloggers looks like a mountaineering shop. You need to find an Arborist Supply. How far are you from Greensborough, NC? Home of Sherrilltree. Could also check your yellow pages for Vermeer dealers, they often handle arborist supplies. Also look up Blue Ridge Arborist Supply. They have several outlets in Virginia.

I think Mountaineering ropes are dramaticly different from Arborist ropes. Rock climbers like a lot of stretch in their ropes to catch a shock load without cutting the climber in half. Arborists dont usually want a lot of stretch, especially not for SRT.

Ivy is a good choice. Good multi-purpose rope. Takes a knot Very Well. In my experience, just does not hold up well in heavy service. Outer jacket is a little too soft in my opinion. I had my 200 T hanging on my lanyard, shut down, and the Ivy brushed against the chain. I keep my chain sharp, even though the chain was not turning it cut a few threads in the jacket. Advanced my tie-in with the tail without a cambium saver, DdRT, oak limb picked a few more threads. Came down a little fast on a Blakes, DdRT, glazed the Ivy. Now 200 feet of Ivy is a 130, a 40, and a few scraps, in less than a year. Been climbing on a 150 of Blaze for much longer and it is still a 150 and in good shape.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

Fireaxman said:


> Looked it up on the Web, FootSloggers looks like a mountaineering shop. You need to find an Arborist Supply. How far are you from Greensborough, NC? Home of Sherrilltree. Could also check your yellow pages for Vermeer dealers, they often handle arborist supplies.



I'm going to call FootSloggers to see what gear they have, I'm still want to go there and try out their tower.

I lived in Greensboro for about a year, now I'm about 4 hours away. 

I've googled for arborist suppliers in this area, but all the results are at least 7 or 8 hours drive from me. I hadn't thought of searching Vermeer dealers. I'll give it a try.

Thanks for the tip.

Googled Vermeer dealers The closest one is on the other end of the sate


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## beastmaster (Mar 9, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> beastmaster said:
> 
> 
> > I've been thinking about using something like that. I'm waiting to find the rope I want.
> ...


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Carburetorless said:
> 
> 
> > I was toying around in my back yard today, using a gri gri and above that (experimenting with) various prussic knots attached to a pulley. I tethered a small clavis above the knot and tied the other end to my belt. I think it has potential after I work out a few bugs. I think my little rockmen device might work too, if I tethered the little cable to my belt so it would open when I descended.
> ...


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

Fireaxman said:


> Ivy is a good choice. Good multi-purpose rope. Takes a knot Very Well. In my experience, just does not hold up well in heavy service. Outer jacket is a little too soft in my opinion. I had my 200 T hanging on my lanyard, shut down, and the Ivy brushed against the chain. I keep my chain sharp, even though the chain was not turning it cut a few threads in the jacket. Advanced my tie-in with the tail without a cambium saver, DdRT, oak limb picked a few more threads. Came down a little fast on a Blakes, DdRT, glazed the Ivy. Now 200 feet of Ivy is a 130, a 40, and a few scraps, in less than a year. Been climbing on a 150 of Blaze for much longer and it is still a 150 and in good shape.



:bang: The more I hear people talk about what they climb on the harder it is to choose a line. lol

It's all good info though. 

How does the Blaze knot? What are you using for a hitch? Does it bother you that you're climbing on one of the weakest lines out there, or do you even notice?


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## tree md (Mar 9, 2012)

That PI line that I showed you in the pic lasted me for 3 years. The one I am climbing on now, Poison Hivy is in it's second year of service and is in great shape. And that is with climbing everyday and the added high volume of storm damage I did over the Summer. I have nothing but good things to say about that line. Works well in mechanical ascenders too. It took awhile for the PI to grow on me (pun intended) but it has become my favorite climbing line.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 9, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> beastmaster said:
> 
> 
> > Is the gri gri tricky to use? I'm thinking you have to pull the tail of your rope up to get it to grab the rope, of course you have to do that to advance it anyways. How is the gri gri for descending; will it run away with you if you pull the handle too hard, and how does it recover if you do?
> ...


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Carburetorless said:
> 
> 
> > You would have to pull up on the tail of the rope to advance the gri gri. Its decends ok, ut if you freak and pull on the handle hard you will decend faster as where the id has a anti panic funtion. You can not put the gri gri on while the rope it tensioned. You could put it on up in the tree you would have to take your weight off the rope. Just get a piece of 16 strand and a vt hitch. Climb it a while then change when you have more experience. Stay away from the rock climbing shop.
> ...


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 9, 2012)

Car, not trying to offend but it sounds like you don't have the knowledge of the rope stuff to savely do climbing. Maybe you should just trim from the ground. I wont even consider climbing on 3/8 rope.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

tree md said:


> That PI line that I showed you in the pic lasted me for 3 years. The one I am climbing on now, Poison Hivy is in it's second year of service and is in great shape. And that is with climbing everyday and the added high volume of storm damage I did over the Summer. I have nothing but good things to say about that line. Works well in mechanical ascenders too. It took awhile for the PI to grow on me (pun intended) but it has become my favorite climbing line.



I like the look of PI/PHI, the PI reminds me of the very first rope I ever rappelled on. I'm sort of liking the Velocity Cool too.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Car, not trying to offend but it sounds like you don't have the knowledge of the rope stuff to savely do climbing. Maybe you should just trim from the ground. I wont even consider climbing on 3/8 rope.



It's better than the bailing twin I've been using. :yoyo:


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 9, 2012)

Carby,
I think you are way too concerned about rope strength. While the human body can, if properly supported, survive a 40G impact, a climber won't come close to surviving more than 4 or 5 G's under the best of conditions, if the rope is what catches you. The problem is the way the rope is attached to your body. The focus point of load is basicly in front of your belt buckle, and will tend to fold your body backwards during the shockload. If you have both hands up on the rope to keep your upper body from flopping back, you might be able to hang on at 4 G's and prevent a broken back. Probably not at 5 G's. If you don't have any hold on the rope, you could get a broken back pretty easy at 2 G's. A 200 lb climber at 2G's is only applying a 400 lb load to the rope. When wearing a typical climbing saddle, your body is the real weak link in the event of a fall, not the rope.
Move the anchor point up high on your back, and things change greatly in the body's favor. That is why FALL ARREST harnesses anchor there, or high on/over the front of the shoulders. Even a parachute that was anchored near your belt buckle would probably break your back when it opened. 

I also use and like the PI from Sherrill Tree. I use an ICE eye2eye with a Distel hitch and a micro pulley.
Long decents on figure 8, and throw a quick wrap around my leg if dropping on the hitch for more than a few feet. It keeps the knot cooler.
Rick


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## Carburetorless (Mar 9, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Carby,
> I think you are way too concerned about rope strength.



Yeah, I'm a strong believer in extra safety.



> While the human body can, if properly supported, survive a 40G impact, a climber won't come close to surviving more than 4 or 5 G's under the best of conditions, if the rope is what catches you. The problem is the way the rope is attached to your body. The focus point of load is basicly in front of your belt buckle, and will tend to fold your body backwards during the shockload. If you have both hands up on the rope to keep your upper body from flopping back, you might be able to hang on at 4 G's and prevent a broken back. Probably not at 5 G's. If you don't have any hold on the rope, you could get a broken back pretty easy at 2 G's. A 200 lb climber at 2G's is only applying a 400 lb load to the rope. When wearing a typical climbing saddle, your body is the real weak link in the event of a fall, not the rope.



A buddy of mine dropped about 4 feet when his friction hitch slipped then reset, he ended up with a herniated disc that eventually had to be removed. He was only about 8 feet off the ground when it happened. 



> Move the anchor point up high on your back, and things change greatly in the body's favor. That is why FALL ARREST harnesses anchor there, or high on/over the front of the shoulders.



Yep. My harness has rings on the shoulders that are for confined space access, there's a special lifting bar that attaches to them, but I don't know if it would work well in a tree, unless I had a groundie belaying me. 

I also have fall arrest on the chest and back, but I don't plan on leaving any slack in my line. 

A rope with a little more stretch would help if the hitch slipped, or even a self tending rope grab, the gri gri seems to work a bit like that, but I've never tested it out. 



> Even a parachute that was anchored near your belt buckle would probably break your back when it opened.



A reserve sort of does that, but if it's a combat jump you don't have the time or the altitude to worry about it. 



> I also use and like the PI from Sherrill Tree. I use an ICE eye2eye with a Distel hitch and a micro pulley.
> Long decents on figure 8, and throw a quick wrap around my leg if dropping on the hitch for more than a few feet. It keeps the knot cooler.
> Rick



Does that 8 twist your rope up?


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## tree md (Mar 9, 2012)

_"A buddy of mine dropped about 4 feet when his friction hitch slipped then reset, he ended up with a herniated disc that eventually had to be removed. He was only about 8 feet off the ground when it happened". _

This is why I recommend finding a simple hitch that you can make work well for you and stick with it until you get a little time under your belt working off of a friction hitch. Master climbing on a simple hitch before you move on to something more advanced. Sometimes it's better to know one knot really well than to know a hundred different hitches.

Believe me, I have had a close call or two with new hitches. It takes awhile to master some of them and learn how finicky they can be. Your hitch is you lifeline and connection to the ground. It requires your utmost attention.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 10, 2012)

Carby,

Yes, the 8 can twist the rope some, but so what, they come back out pretty easy. Better than glazing the rope doing a long slide on the knot, or worse, having the knot fail due to excess melting. I've never seen it happen, but was warned about it when I was first climbing.

tree md has a very good point about keeping it simple. I don't use the VT because I think it requires too much attention from me during the climb. I don't see a problem with a newby using a split tail, as long as they know how to tie a closed system, in case they drop the split out of the tree. When starting in climbing, two lifesavers are KISS and TITS. aka Keep it Simple Stupid and Tie in Twice Stupid.
Rick


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 10, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> 2treeornot2tree said:
> 
> 
> > I'm considering a knut,
> ...


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## ROPECLIMBER (Mar 10, 2012)

tree md said:


> _"A buddy of mine dropped about 4 feet when his friction hitch slipped then reset, he ended up with a herniated disc that eventually had to be removed. He was only about 8 feet off the ground when it happened". _
> 
> This is why I recommend finding a simple hitch that you can make work well for you and stick with it until you get a little time under your belt working off of a friction hitch. Master climbing on a simple hitch before you move on to something more advanced. Sometimes it's better to know one knot really well than to know a hundred different hitches.
> 
> Believe me, I have had a close call or two with new hitches. It takes awhile to master some of them and learn how finicky they can be. Your hitch is you lifeline and connection to the ground. It requires your utmost attention.



This is another reason to use DRT in the canopy as when you do slip walking with slack you can half the bounce by letting line while you are falling kinda like letting a rigged log run, I have slipped and was barreling toards the trunk and by letting out rope it slowes the swing and the jolt and the angle of impact, if you have a hitch you trust and are used to then its second nature, its just opps and zzzep and back up I go some times a cigerette later, we have a lot of groups of trees with one dominate and a whole grove of smaller leanning out away it and I have to swing out on to the smaller ones,
Paul


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Mar 10, 2012)

*safety point*

Just 10-20ft off ground and having safety issues? What are you going to do at 48,58, or 68 ft up. Some people are not safety conscious (and never will be) or attentive to changing safety hazards around them. Getting good at efficient climbing takes time.... Veteran climbers have watch new climber blunder through a climb and cringe. Some individuals should never leave the ground. It is not for everyone. If your willing to adapt fairly quickly to every changing climb conditions. You will be four steps ahead of the climbers in safety and efficient climbing. Carb for the fastest learning of hitches, mechanical gear, tree ascent, and work progress in tree. Find some veteran climbers to watch, work or hang out with. The learning curve will be much quicker! Four ft slip? 
Have WesSpur Tree Gear and Arborist Supplies and sherrilltree.com send you a catalog. INfo on up to date ropes and equipment.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 10, 2012)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> .... Have WesSpur Tree Gear and Arborist Supplies and sherrilltree.com send you a catalog. INfo on up to date ropes and equipment.



OK, I can go with the recomendation on Ivy. Got 400 feet of it in fact. Good rope. I'm still buying Blaze next time, but I respect Tree MD and the other's opinions, Tree MD has a LOT more experience than I have, and the Ivy's larger diameter and greater tensile strength might increase your confidence in it. Have you got the Latest and Greatest Sherrill or Wesspur catalog as Saw Dust suggested? I guess I just assumed you have. Here's Sherrills comparison between Blaze and Ivy:

Blaze 11mm, 6#/ft, milks a little, 5600# tensile, Polyester Double Braid, Knotability Excellent (10), Hand Spliceable, 2.2% stretch @ 540#, Roundness ubder Load Excellent (10), surface texture smooth (10), 0 wax content, suitable for double or single rope climbing.
$104.95 for 120 feet.

Ivy 11.7 mm, 6.5#/ft, milks a little, 6500# tensile, Polyester Double Braid, Knotability excellent (10), Hand Sliceable, 1.8% stretch at 540#, Roundness 10, smoothness 10, wax content 0, suitable for double or single rope climbing. $118.95 for 120 feet.

You see how similar they are. In fact, Ivy was designed on Blaze as a prototype. Blaze is a little more descender freindly since some descenders are designed for 9 to 11 mm ropes, but my STOP (a 9 to 11 mm descender) works fine on the Ivy. Ivy is a little more DdRT freindly because of the larger diameter (easier to pull by hand), but the Blaze takes friction hitches well and climbs well DdRT. A good freind of mine remarked to me today that the reason my Blaze seems to have a harder sheath than my Ivy might be because my Blaze has been worked so hard for so long that it has just tightened up to the core. That could be very true. I'll find out when I compare it to the new hank. 

Bottom Line - get the Ivy, seeing your posts I think you will feel better about it and you will not regret your choice. Forget FootSloggers. Go to Sherrill or Wesspur or Tree Stuff and get yourself some Ivy from their freindly, knowledgable staff.

HTP, by the way, although I think we are all agreed it is not the rope for you, is smaller, lighter, knotability poor (4), 0.63% stretch, and suitable ONLY for SRT. Certainly is wonderful for SRT, but definetly a specialty rope, NOT general purpose.

Just one other thing. I have seen others mention, and I believe, get a good, confident hand on DdRT before you get too involved in SRT. DdRT is safer because it requires a lower level of expertise to operate safely, no changeover ascender to descender, it is more forgiving in a fall if you get slack in your lines (more elasticity), easier to belay, and easier to Rescue. Its just harder work in a long climb. 

SRT is Great, far more energy efficient, but it is more expensive in terms of equipment and requires a greater level of expertiece. I encourage everyone who climbs to develop SRT skills, but Only after they have Mastered DdRT.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 11, 2012)

Fireaxman said:


> OK, I can go with the recomendation on Ivy. Got 400 feet of it in fact. Good rope. I'm still buying Blaze next time, but I respect Tree MD and the other's opinions, Tree MD has a LOT more experience than I have, and the Ivy's larger diameter and greater tensile strength might increase your confidence in it. Have you got the Latest and Greatest Sherrill or Wesspur catalog as Saw Dust suggested? I guess I just assumed you have. Here's Sherrills comparison between Blaze and Ivy:



I'm almost sold on Ivy, and Velocity, if I could find it in a shop somewhere I'd probably buy then and there.






> You see how similar they are. In fact, Ivy was designed on Blaze as a prototype. Blaze is a little more descender freindly since some descenders are designed for 9 to 11 mm ropes, but my STOP (a 9 to 11 mm descender) works fine on the Ivy. Ivy is a little more DdRT freindly because of the larger diameter (easier to pull by hand), but the Blaze takes friction hitches well and climbs well DdRT. A good freind of mine remarked to me today that the reason my Blaze seems to have a harder sheath than my Ivy might be because my Blaze has been worked so hard for so long that it has just tightened up to the core. That could be very true. I'll find out when I compare it to the new hank.



Is it true that the STOP doesn't actually stop, but creeps unless you tie it off?




> Bottom Line - get the Ivy, seeing your posts I think you will feel better about it and you will not regret your choice. Forget FootSloggers. Go to Sherrill or Wesspur or Tree Stuff and get yourself some Ivy from their freindly, knowledgable staff.



I called FootSloggers, most of their stuff is dynamic, and largest diameter line they had was 8mm.




> HTP, by the way, although I think we are all agreed it is not the rope for you, is smaller, lighter, knotability poor (4), 0.63% stretch, and suitable ONLY for SRT. Certainly is wonderful for SRT, but definetly a specialty rope, NOT general purpose.



The HTP I'm getting, but it's for window drops and will be backed up by a rope grab on a dynamic safety line. I'll prolly use a rappel rack on the HTP.



> Just one other thing. I have seen others mention, and I believe, get a good, confident hand on DdRT before you get too involved in SRT. DdRT is safer because it requires a lower level of expertise to operate safely, no changeover ascender to descender, it is more forgiving in a fall if you get slack in your lines (more elasticity), easier to belay, and easier to Rescue. Its just harder work in a long climb.
> 
> SRT is Great, far more energy efficient, but it is more expensive in terms of equipment and requires a greater level of expertiece. I encourage everyone who climbs to develop SRT skills, but Only after they have Mastered DdRT.



I've never tried this, but I'm thinking of combining DdRT and Rope Walker Ascenders to see if I can run up the rope. :msp_thumbup:


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## TreeAce (Mar 11, 2012)

Just an FYI...posion ivy and bluemoon are the same rope just a different color. I def like it. alot.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 11, 2012)

Carby,

Just where in VA are you ? You say that there are no Vermeer stores close enough. There is one just north of Richmond and another in Knoxville,TN. I have been in both stores and they had fair stocks of climbing gear.
If you are only 4 hrs away from Greensboro,NC, then I would suggest the Vermeer store in Colfax, NC. They have a climber on staff ( Brian ) and hanging ropes that you can try out gear on. 
If you want to learn TREE climbing, then get the heck out of the ROCK climbing stores.

Rick


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## tree md (Mar 11, 2012)

If you're close to Greensboro, a trip to American Chainsaw in Atlanta may be in order if you cannot find anything closer... They have everything your heart desires.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 11, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Carby,
> 
> Just where in VA are you ? You say that there are no Vermeer stores close enough. There is one just north of Richmond and another in Knoxville,TN. I have been in both stores and they had fair stocks of climbing gear.
> If you are only 4 hrs away from Greensboro,NC, then I would suggest the Vermeer store in Colfax, NC. They have a climber on staff ( Brian ) and hanging ropes that you can try out gear on.
> ...



I'm in the western part of the state.

When I did the Vermeer dealer look up the closest listing that came up was the one near Richmond, about 7 or 8 hours if I drive fast. 

Is that Vermeer Mid Atlantic, up near Kernsville/Winston Salem? 

Hanging ropes to try out gear on, that's exactly what I'm looking for! 

I will definitely look them up.

Thanks man


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## Fireaxman (Mar 11, 2012)

"Is it true that the STOP doesn't actually stop, but creeps unless you tie it off?"

Yes. It is True. But it doesn't creep much, very slowly, and it is very easy to lock off. Very smooth descent device, not as critical on the "Sweet Spot" as I'D or GrisGris, smaller than the I'd, dissipates heat well, does not twist the rope, and you dont have to take it off the caribiner to put it on the rope (less danger of dropping it). Its about $110 to $125 as opposed to $235 for an I'D. Guess ya pays ya money Not to take ya chances. I prefer the I'D for working on SRT, but the STOP sure makes a smooth, fast ride to the ground on HTP when climbing for Recreation. I use it mostly for taking the heat off my split tail on long DdRT descents and as a backup descender for SRT in case I drop my I'D when transitioning off of ascenders.

I dont usually work off of it, because of the creep, but again - it is very easy to lock it off.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Carby,
> If you are only 4 hrs away from Greensboro,NC, then I would suggest the Vermeer store in Colfax, NC. They have a climber on staff ( Brian ) and hanging ropes that you can try out gear on.
> 
> Rick



I called Vermeer Mid Atlantic.

They have 1 rope hanging that you can hang on to try out a saddle. 

They do have rope in stock(Samson, and New England), no PI :msp_sad:, and nothing from Sterling.:msp_sad:

Samson and New England must be mortal enemies with Sterling and Yale, cause you never find them all in the same place at the same time.

I think I'd be better off buying a few feet of every rope and do my own testing.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't think sterling makes arborist rope


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I don't think sterling makes arborist rope



No, they make rope access/rescue type ropes like HTP and SuperStatic, and dynamic ropes.

I hear a lot of good things about it. 

The consensus seems to be that it's a great rope for what it is. 

I'd would like to find a place to stocks all the major brands, and is set up to allow people to try them all. I mean if I can buy 10' of each rope and set it up on a beam at home, surely a major outlet can do it. Auto dealers let you test drive their vehicles, but ask to hang on a $100 rope and they act like you kicked them in the knee.

I called SherrillTree, they're going to send me 2' samples of PI/PHI, Hi-Vee,Lava, BlueStreak, and Vortex.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 12, 2012)

You will never know if you like a rope by hanging on it at the store. You need to work it and brake it in. Just buy a arborsite rope and learn drt first before you go srt. You asked everyones opinion and you just keep doig what you want anyway. Why did you bother asking? Are you aerial mason? Just do like everyone else on here and buy a rope, and after using it a while, if you don't like it get another one. Stop wasting your time and ours with rappel rope.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> You will never know if you like a rope by hanging on it at the store. You need to work it and brake it in. Just buy a arborsite rope and learn drt first before you go srt. You asked everyones opinion and you just keep doig what you want anyway. Why did you bother asking? Are you aerial mason? Just do like everyone else on here and buy a rope, and after using it a while, if you don't like it get another one. Stop wasting your time and ours with rappel rope.



If you choose to reply in such a manner then you're the only one wasting YOUR time. :cool2:

Who in the world is Aerial Mason? :alien2:


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## Toddppm (Mar 12, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> You will never know if you like a rope by hanging on it at the store. You need to work it and brake it in. Just buy a arborsite rope and learn drt first before you go srt. You asked everyones opinion and you just keep doig what you want anyway. Why did you bother asking? Are you aerial mason? Just do like everyone else on here and buy a rope, and after using it a while, if you don't like it get another one. Stop wasting your time and ours with rappel rope.



Very good diagnosis, all the same symptoms. Either he is or has the same disease.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> Very good diagnosis, all the same symptoms. Either he is or has the same disease.



I'm not Ariel Mason. I don't know Ariel Mason, and I don't know who Ariel Mason is.

I don't have a disease either.

Actually I starting to think that you have a disease. :msp_biggrin:


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## pdqdl (Mar 12, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> ...
> Who in the world is Aerial Mason? :alien2:



Aerial Arborist. He was a bit controversial in a few of his posts, and became notorious at AS for some of his methods, videos, and commentary. In one case, he installed some concrete patch of some sort to a tree, and was roundly ridiculed, hence the derogatory association with "Aerial Mason".

BTW: I think you are getting a bit too particular about what rope you are using. The job of "tree climber" is dirty, dangerous, and requires a remarkable amount of versatility. If using one particular "ideal" rope is that important to you, I suspect that you will not find very much satisfaction with the job, regardless of the brand or type of rope that you finally settle on. Similar (but not quite so nice) comments from others in this thread are probably trying to tell you the same thing. 

Myself, I will climb on any rope that comes to hand. I have my favorite (Velocity, 10mm), but I have acquired a bunch of good ropes of many different styles. My only requirement is that it be strong and appropriate for the job. I try real hard to avoid climbing on a 9/16" bull rope, and I am not very fond of Arborplex. Although 1/2" Arborplex isn't really a bad rope, either.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> You will never know if you like a rope by hanging on it at the store.



No, but I'll know how it knots if I tie a knot in it in the store! If I buy a rope I don't like I'll be stuck with a rope I don't like!! 

Why would I buy a rope I don't like knowing that I'd just be stuck with a rope I don't like?!





> You need to work it and brake it in. Just buy a arborsite rope and learn drt first before you go srt.



I already know SRT, and I've worked on double ropes, I've just never tried body thrusting. I mean really man, this #### ain't rocket science.



> You asked everyones opinion and you just keep doig what you want anyway.



You know what they say about opinions; Don't ya?!




> Why did you bother asking?



Are you trying to trip me up here or what? Because it really seems like you're picking at little bits of #### hoping to get some sort of reaction out of me.



> Are you aerial mason?



As I said before, no I'm not Aerial Mason, nor do I care who Aerial Mason is, nor does it bother me that you want to compare me to Aerial Mason, because you're just being an ass hole.



> Just do like everyone else on here and buy a rope, and after using it a while, if you don't like it get another one.



Really, eeeeeveryone else on here bought a rope without knowing what they were buying? 

Man, you don't over generalize much; Do you? 





> Stop wasting your time and ours with rappel rope.



LOL How could I possibly waste your time with rappel rope? Lol, dam man, I almost pissed myself laughing at that ####.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 12, 2012)

Do you read the #### that comes out of ya mouth. Go back to the chainsaw forum


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## pdqdl (Mar 12, 2012)

Speaking of ol' AA, he hasn't posted since early February. http://www.arboristsite.com/search.php?searchid=960274

Did he get tired of stirring the pot, or did he get banned?


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 12, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> No, but I'll know how it knots if I tie a knot in it in the store! If I buy a rope I don't like I'll be stuck with a rope I don't like!!
> 
> Why would I buy a rope I don't like knowing that I'd just be stuck with a rope I don't like?!



Really man, it's time to sh%# or get off the pot. Pretty much every one of the arborist ropes in this thread is somebody somewhere's favorite. Just pick something and climb already. If you're having a total freak out over dumping a bill on a rope you might not like.....



> Are you trying to trip me up here or what? Because it really seems like you're picking at little bits of #### hoping to get some sort of reaction out of me.



You mean like you replying line by line, name calling, and being as obstinate and contrary as possible?



> Really, eeeeeveryone else on here bought a rope without knowing what they were buying?
> 
> Man, you don't over generalize much; Do you?



Pretty much everyone here who's bought a new rope different from their last has done so based on the opinion of others here. So no, it's not an over generalization at all.



> LOL How could I possibly waste your time with rappel rope? Lol, dam man, I almost pissed myself laughing at that ####.



Really? Seriously? Pfft.


----------



## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Aerial Arborist. He was a bit controversial in a few of his posts, and became notorious at AS for some of his methods, videos, and commentary. In one case, he installed some concrete patch of some sort to a tree, and was roundly ridiculed, hence the derogatory association with "Aerial Mason".



Lol, that's actually kind of funny. :msp_biggrin:



> BTW: I think you are getting a bit too particular about what rope you are using.



I haven't used any of them, so I really don't know if one is as good as the other. I can only assume they are, but you what they say about making assumptions. 

I'd like to say that I have enough knowledge of ropes to just be able to buy one sight unseen, but unfortunately I don't yet have such knowledge of ropes, so I have to read reviews and comments about ropes, but that only serves to further confuse me. I read one post where someone has nothing but praise for a rope, let's say poison ivy, then another post where someone says it's the worst rope they've ever used. 

So I'm going to make my own decision based a few criteria, strength, knotability, visibility, and the material it's self(I prefer polyester).

All of those I can determine fairly well online except for knotability, so I'm going wait til SherrillTree sends me some samples and figure out for myself which one's knot the best, then I'll make my decision. 



> The job of "tree climber" is dirty, dangerous, and requires a remarkable amount of versatility. If using one particular "ideal" rope is that important to you, I suspect that you will not find very much satisfaction with the job, regardless of the brand or type of rope that you finally settle on. Similar (but not quite so nice) comments from others in this thread are probably trying to tell you the same thing.



That sounds like a big steaming pile of horse #### to me. If I didn't like tree work, I wouldn't do tree work. Lol, it sounds like you're repeating something someone said to you in the past man.

I've done enough hard work in my life to know what HARD is. I've done enough tree work to know how hard it is, and I can honestly say that I have done harder work. 

But don't get me wrong and start misquoting me. I'm not claiming to be an all knowing expert at tree work, but I'm not a mindless idiot either. 



> Myself, I will climb on any rope that comes to hand.
> 
> 
> > Really, I have some bailing twine; Would you climb on that if it came to hand?
> ...


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Do you read the #### that comes out of ya mouth. Go back to the chainsaw forum



No I don't.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Really man, it's time to sh%# or get off the pot. Pretty much every one of the arborist ropes in this thread is somebody somewhere's favorite. Just pick something and climb already. If you're having a total freak out over dumping a bill on a rope you might not like.....



I'm going to wait til SherrillTree sends me those samples, then I'll order it from them. 

I'm in no big hurry to get a rope, so I might as well take the time to get one that I really like. Who knows, by the time I get one I might actually know how to use it. :msp_biggrin:


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## pdqdl (Mar 12, 2012)

C-less, I was trying to be nice. 

You responded with vitriol and contempt. Around here, blowhards generally get picked on until they get tired of the abuse and just leave. You will find no shortage of folks to pick fights with at AS. In fact, it looks to me like you are swiftly becoming as popular as the Aerial Mason.

I, however, don't intend to be one of the fighters. I consider you unworthy of my fight-time. You need to be more clever, more inventive, and more entertaining. Otherwise, I'm not having any part of mindless pissing matches.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 12, 2012)

Eighty eight pages of a guy who gets online here and seems to ask questions to himself and types his thoughts without reading any of the replies because he don't know he is typing his thoughts. WAKE UP DUDE, 
Jeff


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 12, 2012)

How have you done lots of tree work and never owed a rope. I call bull####. Post some pics or your a poser.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> C-less, I was trying to be nice.
> 
> You responded with vitriol and contempt. Around here, blowhards generally get picked on until they get tired of the abuse and just leave. You will find no shortage of folks to pick fights with as AS. In fact, it looks to me like you are swiftly becoming as popular as the Aerial Mason.
> 
> I, however, don't intend to be one of the fighters. I consider you unworthy of my fight-time. You need to be more clever, more inventive, and more entertaining. Otherwise, I'm not having any part of mindless pissing matches.



Hey man, I'm not trying to start a pissing match with anyone.

I'm just giving you back what you're giving me, if you don't like it don't start it.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> How have you done lots of tree work and never owed a rope. I call bull####. Post some pics or your a poser.



I call bull ####.

I've owned lots of ropes, just none with fancy names like Poison Ivy, and none with pretty little designs in the sheath like Snake Bite.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 12, 2012)

Now you guys know why I call him Clueless Carby. This is the same guy that tried telling us a rope loses half of its strength when bent 180 degrees over a branch. Claimed to be an experienced tree guy! A number of us called him on it and he responded with LOTS of attitude. He got banned twice that I know of. He finally came back with this thread and a bit less attitude. We were trying to help him with good advice, but then he starts all this crap again. I won't waste any more time trying to help him, but will keep an eye out for when he trys to spread bad info to newbies.
Rick


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## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Now you guys know why I call him Clueless Carby. This is the same guy that tried telling us a rope loses half of its strength when bent 180 degrees over a branch. Claimed to be an experienced tree guy! A number of us called him on it and he responded with LOTS of attitude. He got banned twice that I know of. He finally came back with this thread and a bit less attitude. We were trying to help him with good advice, but then he starts all this crap again. I won't waste any more time trying to help him, but will keep an eye out for when he trys to spread bad info to newbies.
> Rick



Really man; How do you learn? Do act like you know nothing? or do you take a concept and walk through it as you would if you did know? OR were you born all knowing with everything you now know intact at birth.

If you have something constructive to say, then say it. I don't need you to put me down, or talk to me like talking to a dog.

Honestly man, I've had enough abuse in my life, I don't need any more from you. 

I'm trying to actually learn something, and all you're doing is giving me ####. It's as if you don't want me to learn anything, as if you're threatened by my presence here. 

If this were real life I could sue you for deprivation of character over the way you're acting towards me.

Seriously man; What do you think would happen if you treated someone, anyone, in public the way you're treating me on here? 

Oh but this isn't real life is it Ricky? I guess this internet thing makes you a big man. It's O.K. to bash people you don't know. It's O.K. to take out all your animosities on someone because you think they're not as smart as you are. Besides, they're never going to find out who you really are, and they would never come a calling because you pushed them a little too hard. You can say things that you'd never have the nerve to say in real life and no one will ever call you on it, or take action against you because of it; Right Ricky?

Seriously, let's take a little time out here, and just think about that for minute, before push comes to shove.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 12, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Really man; How do you learn? Do act like you know nothing? or do you take a concept and walk through it as you would if you did know? OR were you born all knowing with everything you now know intact at birth.
> 
> If you have something constructive to say, then say it. I don't need you to put me down, or talk to me like talking to a dog.
> 
> ...




Jeff


----------



## Carburetorless (Mar 12, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jeff



Not crying man. I just think it's gone far enough, that's all.

Things like this get out of hand, and it's time to put an end to it before someone looses their temper.

Don't you watch the news?


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 13, 2012)

Clueless,
No, actually I talk much nicer to my dog, but then he is a lot smarter than you are, and knows when to listen. Also, he doesn't try to act smarter than he is, cause he has a CLUE!

You are such a joke here. You will never learn anything because you argue with everyone that trys to help you. I won't ever make the mistake of trying to help you again. As for how I learned....... I know when to shut my mouth and listen to folks that know more than me.
Rick


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 13, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> If this were real life I could sue you for deprivation of character over the way you're acting towards me.



Carbie, it's defamation of character. If you're gonna threaten to sue someone, at least make a threat with real legal terms. 

And oh by the way......you have to have character to begin with, in order for it to be defamed. So defamation of character doesn't really apply to you.

Now don't get mad at me for "deprivation of suit".


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 13, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Now don't get mad at me for "deprivation of suit".



Would that be like taking the shirt off his back ? :hmm3grin2orange:


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 13, 2012)

*Chill out*

Easy, getting out of hand here. Jedi, think about who you are talking about, in other words, consider who you are talking too. Dont get pulled in, give them the advice they ask for, if you wish, correct them when they are wrong but refrain from the bashing, it gets so clouded that, if more reports are given, all involved will get hit. Like I said on the other thread, High Road. Those who continue to ask Q's and argue with the answer will step on their own..............foot and it will be handled. That Rep button goes both ways, use it. Makes things easier.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 13, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Things like this get out of hand, and it's time to put an end to it before someone looses their temper.
> 
> Don't you watch the news?



What do you mean?


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 13, 2012)

```

```



sgreanbeans said:


> Easy, getting out of hand here. Jedi, think about who you are talking about, in other words, consider who you are talking too. Dont get pulled in, give them the advice they ask for, if you wish, correct them when they are wrong but refrain from the bashing, it gets so clouded that, if more reports are given, all involved will get hit. Like I said on the other thread, High Road. Those who continue to ask Q's and argue with the answer will step on their own..............foot and it will be handled. That Rep button goes both ways, use it. Makes things easier.



That rep system is a joke. If you get red you just go to one of the off topic threads and get it back up in 10 mins. I cant beleave someone reported any posts in this thread. What a bunch of cry babys. Funny how this guy shows up when another one leaves.


Carb, you never answered my question of how have you been doing tree work and never bought a Arborist rope? How long you been doing tree work?


----------



## sgreanbeans (Mar 13, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> That rep system is a joke. If you get red you just go to one of the off topic threads and get it back up in 10 mins. I cant beleave someone reported any posts in this thread. What a bunch of cry babys. Funny how this guy shows up when another one leaves.



I asked about the rep, seems there is a glitch that they are working on. I was curious how someone with 3-4 post's is maxed out, so I asked. They are aware and working the issue. When you neg rep someone, it cost pionts, after so many, it is picked up and put on notice on the mod forum, not exactly sure how it works, but it is something like that. I'm still a newb, so I am still learning the...........ropes:msp_biggrin: It also lets mods know something is going on with the individual, (calls attetention to them) and we can monitor the poster


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 13, 2012)

Ok, thanks for explaining it. So we should put detailed info I the detail area to help mods?

Do you have a update on the progress of fixxing the advaced photo upload error?


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 13, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Ok, thanks for explaining it. So we should put detailed info I the detail area to help mods?
> 
> Do you have a update on the progress of fixxing the advaced photo upload error?



Yeah, put a line or two when ya neg rep them in the comments. I don't know about the photo error, whats the problem?


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 13, 2012)

You get a black box when you try to attach a pic. I am posting from my phone so I can't link to it, but I started a thread in support forum about it. Mrs arborsite said the webmaster is working on it.


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## Tree Pig (Mar 13, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> You get a black box when you try to attach a pic. I am posting from my phone so I can't link to it, but I started a thread in support forum about it. Mrs arborsite said the webmaster is working on it.



Honestly we do not want to see pics of an plus sized adult with a Amish beard on Space Mountain.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 13, 2012)

Why you gotta be like that. Your gonna hurt my feelings. Wait I guess I would have to have them in the first place. Lol


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 13, 2012)

OK, so just use the Neg Rep button for Carby, will do. Only problem is I can only do it once before I have to spread the rep around. 
Rick


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## Carburetorless (Mar 13, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Clueless,
> No, actually I talk much nicer to my dog, but then he is a lot smarter than you are, and knows when to listen. Also, he doesn't try to act smarter than he is, cause he has a CLUE!
> 
> You are such a joke here. You will never learn anything because you argue with everyone that trys to help you. I won't ever make the mistake of trying to help you again. As for how I learned....... I know when to shut my mouth and listen to folks that know more than me.
> Rick



Which is never, because you already know it aaaallll.


----------



## Carburetorless (Mar 13, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Carbie, it's defamation of character. If you're gonna threaten to sue someone, at least make a threat with real legal terms.
> 
> And oh by the way......you have to have character to begin with, in order for it to be defamed. So defamation of character doesn't really apply to you.
> 
> Now don't get mad at me for "deprivation of suit".



I'll let my lawyer do the spell check from now on.


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## Zale (Mar 13, 2012)

Carb- while you will be able to tie knots with the samples you receive from Sherril, it will not be the same as tying them when you are putting your weight into it. Don't base your decision on that. Everybody has their own opinion about climbing ropes. I've climbed on Safety Blue for years and like it. I know there are other ropes out there and I have tried many of them. In the end, if it keeps my ass from falling out of the tree, its a good rope. As you said, "It's not rocket science."


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 13, 2012)

Zale said:


> Carb- while you will be able to tie knots with the samples you receive from Sherril, it will not be the same as tying them when you are putting your weight into it.
> 
> He don't care. He is like Charlie in the Chocolate Factory.
> Jeff :msp_sleep:


----------



## Carburetorless (Mar 13, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Zale said:
> 
> 
> > Carb- while you will be able to tie knots with the samples you receive from Sherril, it will not be the same as tying them when you are putting your weight into it.
> ...


----------



## beastmaster (Mar 14, 2012)

I think your maybe just spinning your wheel some, and thats why your catching flack. There is a lot of choices for climbing rope. I bet most guys have started on safty blue, I used it for years my self. You need a comparison point to be able to judge what rope is better suited for what you do. You can't go wrong with safty blue. I have reasons why it doesn't suit me any more, but I didn't even know what those reasons were when I used it. It's good basic rope. 
I doubt you would be able to appreciate the subtle differences any why of the the various ropes, and a two foot sample is useless. That's not a slander but an observation. 
I have help and trained a lot of climbers in my day and always start them out with safty blue, and as they advance they can experiment with other ropes and technics.
I use a lot of blaze, but others who I let try it thinks it sucks. I like 11mm lines and might go smaller, others will only use 1/2 in and don't fill comfortable with 11mm. You need a hell of grip to pull your self up a 11mm line. 
Rope isn't expensive and should be regularly replaced. Get some safty blue and later you can find out for your self about other lines. 
I think your getting way ahead of your self. Trying to give advice to some one about climbing lines who doesn't understand the hows and whys is like describing the color blue to a blind man.
Buy your self some safety blue, use it, know it, then come back and ask your questions, you'll understand the answers better.


----------



## Carburetorless (Mar 14, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> I think your maybe just spinning your wheel some, and thats why your catching flack. There is a lot of choices for climbing rope. I bet most guys have started on safty blue, I used it for years my self. You need a comparison point to be able to judge what rope is better suited for what you do. You can't go wrong with safty blue. I have reasons why it doesn't suit me any more, but I didn't even know what those reasons were when I used it. It's good basic rope.
> I doubt you would be able to appreciate the subtle differences any why of the the various ropes, and a two foot sample is useless. That's not a slander but an observation.
> I have help and trained a lot of climbers in my day and always start them out with safty blue, and as they advance they can experiment with other ropes and technics.
> I use a lot of blaze, but others who I let try it thinks it sucks. I like 11mm lines and might go smaller, others will only use 1/2 in and don't fill comfortable with 11mm. You need a hell of grip to pull your self up a 11mm line.
> ...



I called a local tree service, and they said they were using 1/2 in Hi-Vee Orange/White, he said it was a great rope that he's been climbing on for years, and has always liked it. I like the idea of a big solid line. 

If I'm not mistaken, Hi-Vee, Ultra-Vee, and Safety Blue are the same line, only with different colors. Is this correct?


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 14, 2012)

All the arborist ropes would qualify as "solid". For any given rope size, How tight they are wrapped, what color they are, how they are constructed (double braid, 16-strand, etc), what material they are made with, and what coatings they might have are what makes each of them different from the rest.

Focus on learning the construction and materials that each rope is made with, ignore the colors, and you will end up knowing what you like. Go to each manufacturers website, and they will tell you everything about each rope, as well as it's performance statistics. _Stuff like breaking strength and elongation._


----------



## beastmaster (Mar 14, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I called a local tree service, and they said they were using 1/2 in Hi-Vee Orange/White, he said it was a great rope that he's been climbing on for years, and has always liked it. I like the idea of a big solid line.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, Hi-Vee, Ultra-Vee, and Safety Blue are the same line, only with different colors. Is this correct?



Yes basically the same.


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## tree md (Mar 14, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> I think your maybe just spinning your wheel some, and thats why your catching flack. There is a lot of choices for climbing rope. I bet most guys have started on safty blue, I used it for years my self. You need a comparison point to be able to judge what rope is better suited for what you do. You can't go wrong with safty blue. I have reasons why it doesn't suit me any more, but I didn't even know what those reasons were when I used it. It's good basic rope.
> I doubt you would be able to appreciate the subtle differences any why of the the various ropes, and a two foot sample is useless. That's not a slander but an observation.
> I have help and trained a lot of climbers in my day and always start them out with safty blue, and as they advance they can experiment with other ropes and technics.
> I use a lot of blaze, but others who I let try it thinks it sucks. I like 11mm lines and might go smaller, others will only use 1/2 in and don't fill comfortable with 11mm. You need a hell of grip to pull your self up a 11mm line.
> ...



I have been a working climber since 1991 and have climbed on Safety Blue more than any other line. I spent my first year climbing on True Blue then switched to Safety Blue. I climbed primarily on that line up until about 5 years ago when I started climbing on PI. I still climb on Safety Blue occasionally. Especially when I am climbing in dirty, muddy conditions and want to save my PI line. I am about to order another 150' hank of SB for my new climber in training. Not only is it great climbing line, but it also makes a Jim Dandy rigging line and can be used as such when retired from climbing.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> All the arborist ropes would qualify as "solid". For any given rope size, How tight they are wrapped, what color they are, how they are constructed (double braid, 16-strand, etc), what material they are made with, and what coatings they might have are what makes each of them different from the rest.
> 
> Focus on learning the construction and materials that each rope is made with, ignore the colors, and you will end up knowing what you like. Go to each manufacturers website, and they will tell you everything about each rope, as well as it's performance statistics. _Stuff like breaking strength and elongation._



I've been looking at SherrillTree's climbing rope chart for a month now.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

tree md said:


> I have been a working climber since 1991 and have climbed on Safety Blue more than any other line. I spent my first year climbing on True Blue then switched to Safety Blue. I climbed primarily on that line up until about 5 years ago when I started climbing on PI. I still climb on Safety Blue occasionally. Especially when I am climbing in dirty, muddy conditions and want to save my PI line. I am about to order another 150' hank of SB for my new climber in training. Not only is it great climbing line, but it also makes a Jim Dandy rigging line and can be used as such when retired from climbing.



After fiddling with the rope samples I got from SherrillTree(they're 4' instead 2') I've decided on the Hi-Vee. 

I'll probably use a rescue 8 for decent, it attaches easily enough, and can be locked off.

I like the other lines, and I'll prolly end up getting one of them for tree climbing, PI/PHI, or Lava.

The Vortex is larger than I thought it'd be, and surprisingly limp for a large line, it's the most flexible of all the samples, maybe I'll end up with three ropes. I thought the limper line might solve the problem with the hitches getting tight, but it seems to be just as bad or maybe even worse on these ropes, that's why I'm going with the figure 8.


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I'll probably use a rescue 8 for decent, it attaches easily enough, and can be locked off.



Or you could learn to tie dress and set your hitch properly, and leave the extra gear on the ground when climbing Ddrt. 

What do you weigh Carbie? If your hitch is properly tied, dressed, and set, and is still tightening up too much, tie it with an extra wrap or two.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> .....I've been climbing SRT, but I'm looking towards going with a double style for limb walking.



Ddh, he was trying to use the friction hitch for SRT. 

Carb, decided on an 8 for a descender? And you were worried about the "Creep" of a STOP? Turn loose of the tail on that 8 before you get it locked off and see what happens.

Ooops! Sorry! A little sarcasm crept in. Carb, DO NOT turn loose of the tail on that 8 before you get it locked off! (I'm afraid he might actually have done it).

Seriously, an 8 is an excellent tool for an experienced climber, for many uses, but it can be a disaster for a newbie.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 15, 2012)

I am starting to think this guy is trying to Bait us, or maybe a professional troll. This guy don't seem right!
Jeff


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## Zale (Mar 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> After fiddling with the rope samples I got from SherrillTree(they're 4' instead 2') I've decided on the Hi-Vee.
> 
> I'll probably use a rescue 8 for decent, it attaches easily enough, and can be locked off.
> 
> ...



I think this thread is getting surprisingly limp. If you have not used a figure 8 before, make sure someone is with you on belay while you get used to it.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Or you could learn to tie dress and set your hitch properly, and leave the extra gear on the ground when climbing Ddrt.
> 
> What do you weigh Carbie? If your hitch is properly tied, dressed, and set, and is still tightening up too much, tie it with an extra wrap or two.



I'm around 170 - 175 lbs.

I'll try the extra wrap or two.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

Fireaxman said:


> Ddh, he was trying to use the friction hitch for SRT.
> 
> Carb, decided on an 8 for a descender? And you were worried about the "Creep" of a STOP? Turn loose of the tail on that 8 before you get it locked off and see what happens.
> 
> ...



Ummm yeah, I've done a lot of rappelling, and I know how to break. 

Also you can add a biner or 2 to the 8 and it'll slow you down to the point that you can let go of the tail and just descend at a safe rate, but I always hold the tail and the loaded side of the rope in one hand and apply and release my grip as needed. 

Matter of fact, using this technique you can actually control your descent using only your forefinger and thumb to apply braking pressure, so it's very safe.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am starting to think this guy is trying to Bait us, or maybe a professional troll. This guy don't seem right!
> Jeff



Lol, I'm definitely not getting paid to do this, but I'd troll you for free Jeff.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

Zale said:


> I think this thread is getting surprisingly limp. If you have not used a figure 8 before, make sure someone is with you on belay while you get used to it.



I've used them before, but they're a little slow. I prefer a spring gate biner with a single wrap and an Ausie style harness, but the belay guy just gets in the way.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Naw he's not a professional troll..............he's a rooking at that, too.
> 
> 
> All of this talk of a figure eight........when a tree is worked we lock off our friction hitches hundreds or even a thousand times......you know....like every time we let go of the rope to make a cut. This figure eight stuff doesn't figure.



Hundreds of thousands of times? Man, it sure you a long time to work a tree.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 15, 2012)

Zale said:


> I think this thread is getting surprisingly limp. If you have not used a figure 8 before, make sure someone is with you on belay while you get used to it.



Can you believe the length of this silly thing? A tribute either to our patience or our gullibility.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 15, 2012)

Del_ said:


> What do you think, we hang by our tails when we trim?



No, but if I had 4 hands and a prehensile tail I wouldn't need a rope. :monkey:


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## TreeAce (Mar 15, 2012)




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## jefflovstrom (Mar 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Lol, I'm definitely not getting paid to do this, but I'd troll you for free Jeff.



:msp_ohmy:
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 15, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> No, but if I had 4 hands and a prehensile tail I wouldn't need a rope. :monkey:



If you were a prehensile, you would not need a rope because you would grasp the nearest thing to you!
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 16, 2012)

Well, I tried. This guy, if he is real, will end up in the hospital or dead. That is, if he is real. I am starting to wonder myself, is this a reincarnation? Hope nobody takes any advice from him, would be dangerous to do so.


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## pdqdl (Mar 16, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I've used them before, but they're a little slow. _{referring to using a figure-8 as a descender}_ I prefer a spring gate biner with a single wrap and an Ausie style harness, but the belay guy just gets in the way.



I don't think anyone who has used a figure-8 could prefer using a friction wrap of any sort on an unsecure spring gate carabiner. That is just ignorant and dangerous.

_If you read this C-less, I'm not calling you stupid. I am referring to an uninformed individual whose lack of understanding is obvious._ Stupid, however, might be a root cause of the ignorance on display.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 16, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think anyone who has used a figure-8 could prefer using a friction wrap of any sort on an unsecure spring gate carabiner. That is just ignorant and dangerous.
> 
> _If you read this C-less, I'm not calling you stupid. I am referring to an uninformed individual whose lack of understanding is obvious._ Stupid, however, might be a root cause of the ignorance on display.



Cheer up man, life isn't that bad.


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## pdqdl (Mar 16, 2012)

Ok!


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## Carburetorless (Mar 16, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> If you were a prehensile, you would not need a rope because you would grasp the nearest thing to you!
> Jeff



Same on you.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 17, 2012)

*Now I know why he wants to get a better climbing rig......*

The "climbing" starts at about the 1 minute mark.

Ford EZ step tailgate - YouTube


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## Carburetorless (Mar 17, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> The "climbing" starts at about the 1 minute mark.
> 
> Ford EZ step tailgate - YouTube



Sorry I can't do YouTube on DialUp. :bang:


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 17, 2012)

That's ok, I think some of the others will still get a smile from it.

Rick


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## pdqdl (Mar 17, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Sorry I can't do YouTube on DialUp. :bang:



It is a video of some buffoon trying to climb into a pickup on a tailgate step. Of course it is a ridiculous video, and the guy does an exceptionally skilled job of not being able to climb into a pickup truck. 3-4 minutes later, he finally makes it, but only after a very muscular assistant bodily pushes him in after multiple tries at that, also.

Somehow, I suspect that there are deliberate similarities to this thread. I will refrain from calling them analogies; it's sure to start another fight.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> It is a video of some buffoon trying to climb into a pickup on a tailgate step. Of course it is a ridiculous video, and the guy does an exceptionally skilled job of not being able to climb into a pickup truck. 3-4 minutes later, he finally makes it, but only after a very muscular assistant bodily pushes him in after multiple tries at that, also.
> 
> Somehow, I suspect that there are deliberate similarities to this thread. I will refrain from calling them analogies; it's sure to start another fight.



I don't get it


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 18, 2012)

:notrolls2:

:beat_brick:


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I don't get it



That's too bad. I'm not really surprised, though.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I don't get it



You mean you don't have a 'clue'?
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> You mean you don't have a 'glue'?
> Jeff :msp_tongue:



No I don't have a glue.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> No I don't have a glue.



Not allowed to be changing other peoples wording in a post.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Not allowed to be changing other peoples wording in a post.



I might get B&. Oh no, not that!


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## 2treeornot2tree (Mar 18, 2012)

we could not be that lucky. mabye they can also delete these 11 pages of BS.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> we could not be that lucky. mabye they can also delete these 11 pages of BS.



O.K. this thread is startin to suck, because it's gone from improving my climbing rig to a degenerative back slide of vocabulary.

So I'm pulling the cord on this one before it free falls into the record books.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2012)

What !? I think this thread is doing fine.

Reading this thread is just like spending time watching youtube; mostly filled with idiots doing stupid things and hurting themselves. 

It's all just entertainment, and I don't feel any need to worry about the fate of the victims.


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## Carburetorless (Mar 18, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> What !? I think this thread is doing fine.
> 
> Reading this thread is just like spending time watching youtube; mostly filled with idiots doing stupid things and hurting themselves.
> 
> It's all just entertainment, and I don't feel any need to worry about the fate of the victims.



:welcome:

PLOP

GLURGLE

Now just site back and watch it all circle the drain. opcorn:


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## Carburetorless (Mar 19, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Or you could learn to tie dress and set your hitch properly, and leave the extra gear on the ground when climbing Ddrt.
> 
> What do you weigh Carbie? If your hitch is properly tied, dressed, and set, and is still tightening up too much, tie it with an extra wrap or two.



The extra wrap is working out well. 

Thanks

Now that the hitch is working good, I've started using it to descend with a biner under it for back up. Works real well.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 19, 2012)

Enough of that. Jared is right, do not change another's quote. True story.


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 16, 2012)

*Load at TIP using DRT*

Carb,
Here is an atempt at drawing with words, niether are my strong suit.
If I wiegh 178lbs and am just hanging, motion less then I would load the anchor knot (where my rope tyes to my carabiner) with 178lbs, now if that 178lbs was not counter acted by a equal force I would not remain still, the 178lbs at anchor point has to be matched by an equall 178lbs at the friction hitch so the working end of the rope has to have a load of 178lbs and the standing end of the rope has to have 178lbs equals 356lbs at TIP, when I want to hoist my self up I have to put a down force of 178lbs or more due to friction on the captive end of the rope so that I can haul up the 178lbs that is still on the working end of the rope, DRT is a 1:1 Redirect (meaning I have to pull 1 to pull 1) set up, the only mechanical advantage is that the friction at the TIP allows delay in load, on a loss less pulley the load would be equal 1X climber pulling down one side of the branch,and 1x climber + friction pulling said climber up, so 2 x climber at TIP I am a tecnological retard to draw a picture on a computer, and have probably confused you with the way I talk in circles, but hope it makes sense,
Paul

PS if you put a tension scale at your anchor knot, then to your snap or carabiner,to your harness, and another tension scale mid line above your split tail, on accension you would get your dressed climb wieght at both scales not 1/2 of your climb wieght, there is no mecanical advantage DRT is just a 1:1 redirect. when you pull down you pull down your whole wieght, and you are at the same time hauling up your whole wieght on the other end of the same rope,and the two whole wieghts are both down forcees on the TIP,


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## VA-Sawyer (May 16, 2012)

Sorry to tell you this, but you got it all wrong.
DRT is a 2 to 1 system, SRT is 1 to 1. When using DRT, the rope goes from the saddle, up over an anchor of some kind ( branch, friction saver, etc. ), and back down to the fiction hitch which is attached to the saddle. Two lines holding you up means that each line carrys half the load ( plus or minus friction ) , and the TIP sees a force equal to the load.
SRT if tied directly to overhead TIP such as with running bowline, means the single line is directly supporting you, so the force on the rope is equal to the load, and so is the force on the TIP.
SRT where the rope goes from your saddle, up OVER a TIP and back down to a low anchor point, puts a force equal to twice the load on the TIP. Each leg of the rope sees a force equal to the load.
Rick


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## Carburetorless (May 16, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Carb,
> Here is an atempt at drawing with words, niether are my strong suit.
> If I wiegh 178lbs and am just hanging, motion less then I would load the point (where my rope tyes to my carabiner) with 178lbs, now if that 178lbs was not counter acted by a equal force I would not remain still, the 178lbs at anchor point has to be matched by an equall 178lbs at the friction hitch so the working end of the rope has to have a load of 178lbs and the standing end of the rope has to have 178lbs equals 356lbs at TIP, when I want to hoist my self up I have to put a down force of 178lbs or more due to friction on the captive end of the rope so that I can haul up the 178lbs that is still on the working end of the rope, DRT is a 1:1 Redirect (meaning I have to give 1 to get 1) set up, the only mechanical advantage is that the friction at the TIP allows delay in load, on a loss less pulley the load would be equal 1X climber pulling down one side of the branch,and 1x climber + friction pulling said climber up, so 2 x climber at TIP I am tecnologicaly retard to draw a picture on a computer, and have probably confused you with the way I talk in circles, but hope it makes sense,
> Paul



If you connect both legs of your rope to your harness, then each leg will carry half your weight. 1/2 on the up side and 1/2 on the down side.

Think about it. Tying both ends of your rope to your harness doesn't increase gravities pull on you, you'll still weigh 178 lbs(not 356 lbs). 

Think about it again, you're hanging from a rope, both ends are tied to you, you weigh 178 lbs, how much weight is on the TIP?

Think about it like this...

Like you said, in order for you to remain still or motionless there has to be an equal amount of force on the down side of your rope as there is on the up side of your rope....

Soooooooo, if you weigh 178 lbs, and both ends of the rope are tied to you it means that both ends are supporting your weight, which is 178 lbs, so the equation is YW/LR or Your Weight / Legs of Rope....

There are 2 legs of rope, so YourWeight / 2 or 178 lbs/2 = 89 lbs on each side of the rope.

You won't go from 178 lbs to 356 lbs by tying both ends of the rope to you; Now will you?

Think about it.

On the other hand, if you're climbing SRT it's different...

There are differences in the two systems, basically the difference is that one system is Dynamic(DdRT) while the other is Static(SRT).

Dynamic, it's a moving system, it's a big loop that gets smaller when ascend and it gets larger when you descend, it does part of the moving, so there's a trade off in the amount of effort it takes to climb the system.

Static, it doesn't move, it remains the same, so you do all the moving and all the work.

Now, since there's no trade off with the SRT system it's means that the 2 legs of the rope don't share the work load, and likewise they don't share your weight either....

As you probably know by now, it takes an equal amount of force on both sides of the rope to hold you in place, since you weigh 178 lbs, and the climbing system(SRT) isn't sharing the work load or your weight, then there has to be an equal amount of force on the anchored side of the rope to hold your weight, if you weight 178 lbs, then there's 178 lbs of force on the other side of the rope to hold you.

In either system there is the combined force of both sides of the rope on the TIP.

DdRT each side of the rope shares half your weight (89 lbs) combine those and you have 178 lbs on the TIP.

SRT each side of the rope has a force equal to your weight (178 lbs) combine those and you have 356 lbs on the TIP.

Get the picture?


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 17, 2012)

Then phisics is wrong, a 2:1 system has mecanical anvantage and the haul line goes up 1/2 the speed and load as the pull line DRT is simply a 1:1 redirect, you have equal force and equal travel and travel speed on both ends of the rope, When you apply force to one side you are hauling the whole force up the other side,same as if the end of the rope was being pulled from the ground, look at it in motion,,
Take a flag pole for example same closed loop rope and a anchor point just no advansment capture but evry foot of rope you pull the flag goes up the same foot and you have the constant wieght of the flag on one side of the pulley and a cnstant force equaling the wieght of the flag on the other side, the flag doesent magicly share its wieght the rope carries the same tension (wieght of the flag) and the wieght with friction that it takes to counter that flags wieght, you have a gravity induced wieght on one side and a work induced wieght on the other side Ie flag x2 load on the minni pulley at the top of the pole, the only advantage is the redirect as you cant push rope, other than that it is a 1:1 redirect not a 2:1
I get your picture, but even though it makes sense I am still going to set up some tension scales and wieghts, because when pulling up say foot locking back up to redirect, all my wieght is on both sides of the rope gravity on one side and force equal to my standing wieght on the other side, putting a load of 2x me on tip, how can you wiegh more than you wiegh you dont you have to create the force (work) that countreracts the gravity.
Paul


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## Customcuts (May 17, 2012)




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## ddhlakebound (May 17, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Then phisics is wrong, a 2:1 system has mecanical anvantage and the haul line goes up 1/2 the speed and load as the pull line DRT is simply a 1:1 redirect, you have equal force and equal travel and travel speed on both ends of the rope, When you apply force to one side you are hauling the whole force up the other side,same as if the end of the rope was being pulled from the ground, look at it in motion,,
> Take a flag pole for example same closed loop rope and a anchor point just no advansment capture but evry foot of rope you pull the flag goes up the same foot and you have the constant wieght of the flag on one side of the pulley and a cnstant force equaling the wieght of the flag on the other side, the flag doesent magicly share its wieght the rope carries the same tension (wieght of the flag) and the wieght with friction that it takes to counter that flags wieght, you have a gravity induced wieght on one side and a work induced wieght on the other side Ie flag x2 load on the minni pulley at the top of the pole, the only advantage is the redirect as you cant push rope, other than that it is a 1:1 redirect not a 2:1
> I get your picture, but even though it makes sense I am still going to set up some tension scales and wieghts, because when pulling up say foot locking back up to redirect, all my wieght is on both sides of the rope gravity on one side and force equal to my standing wieght on the other side, putting a load of 2x me on tip, how can you wiegh more than you wiegh you dont you have to create the force (work) that countreracts the gravity.
> Paul



Carbie has got this one right. A ddrt climbing system is close to a 2:1 system, and you do have to pull 2 feet of rope to advance 1 vertical foot. That's exactly why srt is preferred for long ascents, because you gain 1 foot for each foot of rope you pass, but lifting your whole mass with each "step".

Your flagpole example is flawed, because the running end is not attached to the load, so it really is just a re-direct.


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 17, 2012)

Losing sleep over this, something deeper is truly wrong with me, 
The flag is ancored to the working end of the loop the running end is pulling the equal wieght of the flag the wieght of the flag is still over there, and now the oppossing downward force it takes to move the flag including rope bend and pulley friction, is applied to the running end, only difference is there is no progress capture, (friction hitch) as long as you are hauling the flag, more than twice the natural grvitational pull of the flag is on the pulley and pully anchor point, once tied off then the two forces can equalize , but while hauling there is 2:1 load at top of pulley. I used that example because it is a closed loop like old school DRT.
In DRT the running end is only captured when stationary, when accending the running end is pulling the the same load that is still hanging on the other side of the pulley(branch), you pull 1 foot you go up 1 foot, to haul 1 lbs you have to pull 1 lbs plus friction 1:1, the advantage is the friction of the branch keeps the load off the friction knot, till it can be captured, it is still a 1:1 redirect just with a progress capture, I agree once you sit on both ends you have shared the load, but when you haul up at times you are pulling down the same wieght you are still holding or moving on the working end, IE 2x climber at TIP , set aside hip thrust, where I am reducing the load side, and taking advantage of the friction to hold it till I can capture it on the running end, but when I just haul up the running side I am loading the force of my wieght,one side of branch, plus the force it takes to haul my wieght including friction pulled down on the other side of the pulley (branch) the 2:1 is pointed at the TIP. For a mechanical 2:1 advantage the pulley would have to be moving with the load, then the rope would have to be pulled with the load (up) and the two atachhments would have to be on the tree, then you would have 1/2 the load, speed, and advancement. DRT has a fixed pulley (branch or friction saver) the video I posted earlier shows this simple as day, 
the friction hitch is not sharing the load when advancing, the running end is bieng pulled through it, then when set the load will equalize, short of buying a 400lb can scale how can I show this.I cant heavier than my wieght but I apply my same or more wieght in force on the running end ocasionally when hauling back up short strecthes for a rederect or missed branch
etc, that is when I have the 2x at the TIP,

Rope and Pulley Systems-segment 1 - Pulley Basics & the Pulley Principle.pds.m2ts - YouTube
Rope and Pulley Systems: Segment 2 - The 1:1 Redirect and 2:1 Force Multiplication pds.m2ts - YouTube
Paul


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## ddhlakebound (May 17, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Losing sleep over this, something deeper is truly wrong with me,
> The flag is ancored to the working end of the loop the running end is pulling the equal wieght of the flag the wieght of the flag is still over there, and now the oppossing downward force it takes to move the flag including rope bend and pulley friction, is applied to the running end, only difference is there is no progress capture, (friction hitch) as long as you are hauling the flag, more than twice the natural grvitational pull of the flag is on the pulley and pully anchor point, once tied off then the two forces can equalize , but while hauling there is 2:1 load at top of pulley. I used that example because it is a closed loop like old school DRT.



No, it's not like ddrt, because the size of the loop never changes, and the load is hoisted, rather than the system being made smaller as the flag ascends.



> In DRT the running end is only captured when stationary, when accending the running end is pulling the the same load that is still hanging on the other side of the pulley(branch), you pull 1 foot you go up 1 foot, to haul 1 lbs you have to pull 1 lbs plus friction 1:1, the advantage is the friction of the branch keeps the load off the friction knot, till it can be captured, it is still a 1:1 redirect just with a progress capture, I agree once you sit on both ends you have shared the load, but when you haul up at times you are pulling down the same wieght you are still holding or moving on the working end, IE 2x climber at TIP , set aside hip thrust, where I am reducing the load side, and taking advantage of the friction to hold it till I can capture it on the running end, but when I just haul up the running side I am loading the force of my wieght,one side of branch, plus the force it takes to haul my wieght including friction pulled down on the other side of the pulley (branch) the 2:1 is pointed at the TIP. For a mechanical 2:1 advantage the pulley would have to be moving with the load, then the rope would have to be pulled with the load (up) and the two atachhments would have to be on the tree, then you would have 1/2 the load, speed, and advancement. DRT has a fixed pulley (branch or friction saver) the video I posted earlier shows this simple as day,
> the friction hitch is not sharing the load when advancing, the running end is bieng pulled through it, then when set the load will equalize, short of buying a 400lb can scale how can I show this.I cant heavier than my wieght but I apply my same or more wieght in force on the running end ocasionally when hauling back up short strecthes for a rederect or missed branch
> etc, that is when I have the 2x at the TIP,



It's easy to check.....set your tip at a known height, and start with your working end clip or biner at a known height. Ascend to the tip, and measure how much rope you've pulled to ascend a known height. You'll find it's twice as much as the height you've ascended. 2:1

A ddrt climibing system is dynamic......the loop you're on gets shorter or longer as you climb or descend, but always both the working and running end are supporting the load, whether resting on the hitch, or moving upward through muscle power, or descending with friction.


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## KenJax Tree (May 17, 2012)

Its like pulling a running bowline into a tree the more you pull the small the loop gets.


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 17, 2012)

Size of loop has nothing to do with ratio, size of TIP would have more to do with it as the rope bend ratio would go up and down with size of TIP, the pulley (branch) stays the same size all the way up, The two ends of the rope stay basicly parrallel being pulled in the same down direction. If you hang a rope at standing level you can easily see the 1:1 the friction hitch is just a capture. pull one foot at the standing end and working end goes up 1 foot. Arborist climbing line is considered static line, it has very little stretch. the two ends could start at an infinite length and as long as they are basicly parrallel the 1:1 does not channge. 
I give up on this topic.
My Girlfriend is in recovery from colon surgury in ICU (all went well no cancer)and I have not slept much, 
will look at it again tonight. I will still choose my TIP as if 2x my wieght will be on it and more with friction, so I can live to prove my point.
Paul


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## KenJax Tree (May 17, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Size of loop has nothing to do with ratio, size of TIP would have more to do with it as the rope bend ratio would go up and down with size of TIP, the pulley (branch) stays the same size all the way up, The two ends of the rope stay basicly parrallel being pulled in the same down direction. If you hang a rope at standing level you can easily see the 1:1 the friction hitch is just a capture. pull one foot at the standing end and working end goes up 1 foot. Arborist climbing line is considered static line, it has very little stretch. the two ends could start at an infinite length and as long as they are basicly parrallel the 1:1 does not channge.
> I give up on this topic.
> My Girlfriend is in recovery from colon surgury in ICU (all went well no cancer)and I have not slept much,
> will look at it again tonight. I will still choose my TIP as if 2x my wieght will be on it and more with friction, so I can live to prove my point.
> Paul



No cancer is always good hope shes doing well and recovers fast.


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 17, 2012)

Thanks, Kenjax, her Dad is a colon cancer surviver, so they got it early, was the large type polip that turns cancerous and they sent it, and the section removed to biopsy but the surgeon said he thinks it was benine, and they got it out laproscopicly but still had to shorten large intestant so main risk now is bacteria infection. The doctor hasent seen her this morning so I am on call and nurse said she is doing good this morning they had said 3-5 days in hospital guess I will run by there before I head to jobsite, cant take flowers in the ICU so was hoping they had moved her, the rope discussion actually kept my mind off walking the floor, was up there from 11:30 am till 9 last night, Then could sleep till around 4:00 am or so,
Paul


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## KenJax Tree (May 17, 2012)

Good to hear shes doing well


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## Zale (May 17, 2012)

My eyes tend to glaze over when people start debating with each other DRT vs. SRT. If your TIP breaks it usually means you are too fat or too stupid for tying into a small limb.


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## ddhlakebound (May 17, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> Size of loop has nothing to do with ratio, size of TIP would have more to do with it as the rope bend ratio would go up and down with size of TIP, the pulley (branch) stays the same size all the way up, The two ends of the rope stay basicly parrallel being pulled in the same down direction. If you hang a rope at standing level you can easily see the 1:1 the friction hitch is just a capture. pull one foot at the standing end and working end goes up 1 foot. Arborist climbing line is considered static line, it has very little stretch. the two ends could start at an infinite length and as long as they are basicly parrallel the 1:1 does not channge.
> I give up on this topic.
> My Girlfriend is in recovery from colon surgury in ICU (all went well no cancer)and I have not slept much,
> will look at it again tonight. I will still choose my TIP as if 2x my wieght will be on it and more with friction, so I can live to prove my point.
> Paul



Best wishes for your GF, hope everything goes as well as possible. 

Bend ratio only clouds this matter, and has nothing to do with the mechanical advantage or lack thereof in any given system. Bend ratio deals with the % of the rope diameter that is actually supporting a load. With a 3" dia. tip and half inch rope, the 6:1 bend radius does nothing to add to or take away from MA. 

Let's try this another way........using a 120' rope. 

Say you're at 60', cinched up tight to your tip, done with the climb and ready to rappel on your hitch (or descending device). 

Cinched to your tip, you might have 2-3' of rope bearing load in your climbing system, and 117' of rope hanging below you. When your feet are about to reach the ground, you have 118' of rope bearing load, and 2' hanging below your hitch. 

How many feet of rope have gone through the hitch or device for you to descend 60'?


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 17, 2012)

Thanks DDH,
For the well wishes,
when you change the way you look at things the things you look at change, good perspective, that pulley video got me all bass ack wards,

When I am on the ground loading my TIP and run the rope both ways to check crotch friction, strength etc, working end goes up equal to running end coming down, this is why I called it 1:1, but I have known 2 times rope length for hieght of TIP since the first time I bumped my but! in '89. Why is this so hard to wrap my mush brain around,:bang:
Paul


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## beastmaster (May 17, 2012)

Glad your Gals alright.
I read a big debate on another site that the RADs system of SRT is a 3 to 1 due to the way its set up? That really screws with my pea brain.
Correct me if I am wrong, but on SRT both sides of the rope carry your weight. That is if their both are straight up and down. If your tie in is at an angle the weight supported by it is lessened on that leg. 
Again correct me if I am wrong, but on a single line the more points the rope touches, such as multiple branches, your weight will be distributed between them. right?
Those are things I believe to be true and take into account in my rigging, so I need to know if their correct. I often send my saw down and pull it back up again by hooking it in the middle of the rope with a biner. One end is tied off to me and the other is used to lower or pull, as the saw slides up or down, that way I am only lifting half the weight.
I do removals like that some times with one end tied off and the rope running through a pulley attached to a different tree or leader to the ground. Using a clevis I take piece between the tie in and the pulley. That way the weight is distributed between the two points. Right?
If this is a little off topic sorry. All this talk about ratios gets me excited and confused. I recently got me a set of double pulleys, now things get really confusing.


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## Carburetorless (May 17, 2012)

ROPECLIMBER said:


> When I am on the ground loading my TIP and run the rope both ways to check crotch friction, strength etc, working end goes up equal to running end coming down, this is why I called it 1:1
> Paul



Yes it's true that the up rope goes up the same distance that the down rope goes down, it has to it's the same rope, it's just across a limb.

The climbing system though is 2:1, you only get half the return for your effort, because you're only moving up half the distance that your feet are moving down , because the down side of the rope is moving down half that distance while the up side is moving up half that distance. So you loose half of it when the down side moves down.

I'll try to explain it better.

When you climb SRT you get 100% return for effort, when you stand in your footloops you move up the same amount that you stand up, because the system is static the rope doesn't move down.

With DdRT you only get half return for that same amount of effort, because when you stand in your footloops the rope does move, because the system is dynamic the rope moves down half as much as you stand up.


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## ddhlakebound (May 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I'll try to explain it better.
> 
> When you climb SRT you get 100% return for effort, when you stand in your footloops you move up the same amount that you stand up, because the system is static the rope doesn't move down.
> 
> With DdRT you only get half return for that same amount of effort, because when you stand in your footloops the rope does move, because the system is dynamic the rope moves down half as much as you stand up.




Uggggggg........

No, no, no, no, no. It's getting tiring correcting you. Please, follow these steps. 

1. Close mouth/don't use keyboard. 
2. Engage brain. 
3. Learn a topic until you actually understand it. 
4. Commence public discussion of topic. 

You always go straight to 4.

anyway.....

With ddrt you get half the return FOR HALF THE EFFORT (plus friction). Not half the return for the same effort. Or have you already forgotten your 178 pound post from yesterday?

Or do you think there is a difference in the work performed in pulling 2 feet of rope with a 100 pound load, or pulling a 200 pound load 1 foot up a rope?


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## ddhlakebound (May 18, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but on SRT both sides of the rope carry your weight. That is if their both are straight up and down. If your tie in is at an angle the weight supported by it is lessened on that leg.



I think this is incorrect. You can never get below 100% of load with a redirect. I believe the load on the angled anchor leg would be increased as the angle increases, up to 90 degrees, then falls back toward 100% as you get closer to 180 degrees. Not 100% sure, and have not found a reference yet.



> Again correct me if I am wrong, but on a single line the more points the rope touches, such as multiple branches, your weight will be distributed between them. right?



"Touches" is a bit unclear, but generally yes, the more points a line runs over, the greater the weight distribution between them. 



> Those are things I believe to be true and take into account in my rigging, so I need to know if their correct. I often send my saw down and pull it back up again by hooking it in the middle of the rope with a biner. One end is tied off to me and the other is used to lower or pull, as the saw slides up or down, that way I am only lifting half the weight.



I do that sometimes too. 



> I do removals like that some times with one end tied off and the rope running through a pulley attached to a different tree or leader to the ground. Using a clevis I take piece between the tie in and the pulley. That way the weight is distributed between the two points. Right?



Yes, but at 120 degrees of angle between the two anchor points, each leg is supporting 100% of load. @90 degrees each leg supports 70% of load, over 120 degrees the load of each leg increases over 1x loading, up to 1150% on each leg at 170 degrees. According to "On Rope" anyway.....


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## Carburetorless (May 18, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> I think this is incorrect. You can never get below 100% of load with a redirect. I believe the load on the angled anchor leg would be increased as the angle increases, up to 90 degrees, then falls back toward 100% as you get closer to 180 degrees. Not 100% sure, and have not found a reference yet.



Actually the way the load is distributed on the TIP changes, it goes from all the load being applied downward to part of the load being applied sideways in the direction of the angle.

An easy way to think about is that a rope pulls along it's length, if the rope is pointing west and has an angle to the east that turns and points down, then the rope is pulling the TIP to the west and down.

The load is applied downward, and to one side to a greater or lesser degree depending on the angle that it crosses the TIP.


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## Carburetorless (May 18, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Uggggggg........
> 
> No, no, no, no, no. It's getting tiring correcting you. Please, follow these steps.
> 
> ...



Again you're misinterpreting what I said.

In DdRT you get half the return for the leg motion imparted on the rope. If your stroke is 2' then you only get 1' of upward movement, because half of that 2' is dispersed downward, while the other half is dispersed upward.

If you were to film yourself climbing DdRT and SRT, then play it back in slow motion, you'd see that your legs move the same amount in each, but that the movement is dispersed in two different directions in DdRT.


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## ddhlakebound (May 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Actually the way the load is distributed on the TIP changes, it goes from all the load being applied downward to part of the load being applied sideways in the direction of the angle.
> 
> An easy way to think about is that a rope pulls along it's length, if the rope is pointing west and has an angle to the east that turns and points down, then the rope is pulling the TIP to the west and down.
> 
> The load is applied downward, and to one side to a greater or lesser degree depending on the angle that it crosses the TIP.



This is not about force vector applied to the anchor.

This is about the lbf applied to the legs of the rope by changing the angle at which the running end is anchored.


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## ddhlakebound (May 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Again you're misinterpreting what I said.
> 
> In DdRT you get half the return for the leg motion imparted on the rope. If your stroke is 2' then you only get 1' of upward movement, because half of that 2' is dispersed downward, while the other half is dispersed upward.
> 
> If you were to film yourself climbing DdRT and SRT, then play it back in slow motion, you'd see that your legs move the same amount in each, but that the movement is dispersed in two different directions in DdRT.



No, in ddrt you get full return for each motion. But you have to pull twice as much rope, because you're lifting half the weight (plus friction). The same amount of work is being performed. 

In a loss less ddrt system, you do the same amount of work to move 200 lbs to fifty feet as you do with a 200 lb load climbing to fifty feet on an srt system. 

And you're "video ddrt and srt" example is just wrong, because the legs don't move at all in an srt system, you move along the working leg.


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## Carburetorless (May 18, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> No, in ddrt you get full return for each motion. But you have to pull twice as much rope, because you're lifting half the weight (plus friction). The same amount of work is being performed.
> 
> In a loss less ddrt system, you do the same amount of work to move 200 lbs to fifty feet as you do with a 200 lb load climbing to fifty feet on an srt system.
> 
> And you're "video ddrt and srt" example is just wrong, because the legs don't move at all in an srt system, you move along the working leg.



You're full of #### as a Christmas turkey!


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## VA-Sawyer (May 18, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> No, in ddrt you get full return for each motion. But you have to pull twice as much rope, because you're lifting half the weight (plus friction). The same amount of work is being performed.
> 
> In a loss less ddrt system, you do the same amount of work to move 200 lbs to fifty feet as you do with a 200 lb load climbing to fifty feet on an srt system.
> 
> And you're "video ddrt and srt" example is just wrong, because the legs don't move at all in an srt system, you move along the working leg.



Clueless Carby strikes again ! ddhlakebound is EXACTLY right on this one.

There was some good advice posted for CC a few posts back. Too bad he can't seem to comprehend it.

Rick


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## Carburetorless (May 18, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Clueless Carby strikes again ! ddhlakebound is EXACTLY right on this one.
> 
> There was some good advice posted for CC a few posts back. Too bad he can't seem to comprehend it.
> 
> Rick



Ditto for you.

Cause you're not getting full return for your effort if you have to pull twice as much rope, you're only getting half return. Twice the pulling for half the progress.

Unless you're a big ol ##### who can't pull his own weight you're better off climbing SRT.


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## Garden Of Eden (May 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Again you're misinterpreting what I said



How the "f" can you say that when you have intentionally changed another persons post? Misinterpreted, or straight up lied. I don't know, but I suspect if someone did the same to you, we would be hearing from your attorney for "deprivation of character.". And to quote a favorite movie of mine, "because you are a character, doesn't mean you have character."


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## VA-Sawyer (May 18, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Ditto for you.
> 
> Cause you're not getting full return for your effort if you have to pull twice as much rope, you're only getting half return. Twice the pulling for half the progress.
> 
> Unless you're a big ol ##### who can't pull his own weight you're better off climbing SRT.




Clueless,
You only have to apply half the force to your leg in DRT to lift a step. True, you only get half the lift, but that is the trade off. TOTAL work is the same to climb 50' DRT and SRT! Think of climbing 300 8" steps or 100 24" steps. You still get 200' higher at the end of the climb, but your knees will feel better on the 8" steps. 
I climb both SRT and DRT depending on the need. No problem pulling my weight or using my brain!

Rick


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## Garden Of Eden (May 19, 2012)

Didn't you just order lava from sherill, and get short roped?? What ever came of that? Don't like the lava, or what?


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## Carburetorless (May 19, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Clueless,
> You only have to apply half the force to your leg in DRT to lift a step. True, you only get half the lift, but that is the trade off. TOTAL work is the same to climb 50' DRT and SRT! Think of climbing 300 8" steps or 100 24" steps. You still get 200' higher at the end of the climb, but your knees will feel better on the 8" steps.
> Rick



I know that, and that's what I mean when I say you only get half return for your effort.

I'm not trying to understand any of this, I already do, I was only trying to help Ropeclimber get his head around it, since he said he was having trouble understanding it.

Stop patronizing me.


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## Carburetorless (May 19, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Didn't you just order lava from sherill, and get short roped?? What ever came of that? Don't like the lava, or what?



Hey, flush out your headgear there Pulp Fiction. You're sucking up to the trolls.


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## Garden Of Eden (May 19, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Hey, flush out your headgear there Pulp Fiction. You're sucking up to the trolls.



Don't evade the questions. Did you, or did you not order lava? I'm asking if they made it right, or what. I'm not sucking up to anyone. I don't get my validation from people, it makes life easier. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. Please don't attack me, its not worth your time. Just do us all a favor and answer if you bought the lava, what happened to it, and what, if anything, did sherrill do about it?


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## treeclimber101 (May 19, 2012)

Man I've read 2 threads just now and that Carbie guys fiesty as hell kinda warms my heart to see the hate spread on such an even keel ...:hmm3grin2orange:


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## ddhlakebound (May 19, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> You're full of #### as a Christmas turkey!



You stuff your Christmas turkey full of ####? And then eat it? Sounds bout right for you.......



Clueless Carbie said:


> I know that, and that's what I mean when I say you only get half return for your effort.
> 
> I'm not trying to understand any of this, I already do, I was only trying to help Ropeclimber get his head around it, since he said he was having trouble understanding it.



Most times I think you're lucky to remember your name and how to wipe your ass. Practically the only thing you've been right about was the ddrt 2:1 that ROPECLIMBER got wrong for a day (while his GF was in for surgery).

And the really sad part is, that you don't even get that you don't get it.


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## Carburetorless (May 19, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> You stuff your Christmas turkey full of ####? And then eat it? Sounds bout right for you.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm the one that gets it. 

You're the one that's rambling on and on about something you don't fully understand. You don't get it, because you think you know it all.

I, on the other hand, get it because I take the time to investigate what's really going on.

Then there's YOU!

Did your mother have any children that lived? Are you the end result?

You can't shut your pie hole long enough to let your brain engage. 

You're always spewing your lizard brained psycho raging mind spasmatic tongue trash to the point that you're stuck in Terets syndrome mode while the rest of us are doing constructive things.

The really sad part is that you have friends just like you.


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## VA-Sawyer (May 19, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I'm the one that gets it.



If only that were true! Clueless, you are dead WRONG when you say that it is half the return for the same effort. It is half the return for HALF the effort. Why can't you understand something so simple ?

Even primates seem to understand that concept. Can't believe you have the nads to question anybodys ancestry. You of all creatures!
Rick


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## VA-Sawyer (May 19, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Most times I think you're lucky to remember your name and how to wipe your ass.



I wouldn't bet on the second part of that line too much. Maybe that is why he seems to always be spreading crap around here!

Rick


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## jefflovstrom (May 19, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Man I've read 2 threads just now and that Carbie guys fiesty as hell kinda warms my heart to see the hate spread on such an even keel ...:hmm3grin2orange:



Looking for a friend, eh?
Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Carburetorless (May 19, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> If only that were true! Clueless, you are dead WRONG when you say that it is half the return for the same effort. It is half the return for HALF the effort. Why can't you understand something so simple ?



Well, whether it's half return or half effort, it's still half-fast. Even primates seem to understand that concept.


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## Carburetorless (May 19, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> I wouldn't bet on the second part of that line too much. Maybe that is why he seems to always be spreading crap around here!
> 
> Rick



What part of Montana are you from Rick?


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## Carburetorless (May 19, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Didn't you just order lava from sherill, and get short roped?? What ever came of that? Don't like the lava, or what?



The Lava is good rope, it glazes kinda easy if you descend fast on just the hitch(the split tail glazes not the rope), but Lava is plenty tough enough to take it.


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## sgreanbeans (May 20, 2012)

*I need help, your wrong, I know better.............I need help, your wrong, I know...*

Amazing, sometimes, I just dont understand the motivation.

EMMM, great patience u have Ropeclimber, this is the way of the force.


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 21, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Actually the way the load is distributed on the TIP changes, it goes from all the load being applied downward to part of the load being applied sideways in the direction of the angle.
> 
> An easy way to think about is that a rope pulls along it's length, if the rope is pointing west and has an angle to the east that turns and points down, then the rope is pulling the TIP to the west and down.
> 
> The load is applied downward, and to one side to a greater or lesser degree depending on the angle that it crosses the TIP.



How do I post this in the funny section, I think I pulled somthing, lol Thanks Carb, Do you have a MA in Engeneering,or just copy this from another site, was funny because of the east west angles, I thought where did you get a 1 ended rope,points west but not east, had to read it twice, but guess you are back on SRT, for that example.
Thanks S.G.B. and thanks for all with the good comments and wishes for my GF for the surgery,
Annette, is back home, She had got dehydrated and blood press went way down, so was in ICU a couple of extra days but is doing great now, they took out 10" and the biopsy is benine, just threw a wrench into Colorado for a bit but still going in June, 
Paul


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 21, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Man I've read 2 threads just now and that Carbie guys fiesty as hell kinda warms my heart to see the hate spread on such an even keel ...:hmm3grin2orange:


:hmm3grin2orange:
I read back through, and couldn't stop laghing, Thank GOD that I can laugh at myself too,
Paul


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## ROPECLIMBER (May 21, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Clueless,
> You only have to apply half the force to your leg in DRT to lift a step. True, you only get half the lift, but that is the trade off. TOTAL work is the same to climb 50' DRT and SRT! Think of climbing 300 8" steps or 100 24" steps. You still get 200' higher at the end of the climb, but your knees will feel better on the 8" steps.
> I climb both SRT and DRT depending on the need. No problem pulling my weight or using my brain!
> 
> Rick



Rick I like the stairs comparison, Oh well I very seldome foot lock very far on Ddrt, just to get back to a redirect or missed dead wood etc, mostly hip thrust when on the trunk, most trees here are 50-60 feet tops, a few valley trees up around 90, different in Colorodo, narrow leaf cotton woods are 90-120 almost have to use SRT with a retevable bowline or haul a 200 foot rope, Which I don't have yet,
Paul


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Looking for a friend, eh?
> Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:



Friends are over rated Jeffy I adopted 3 wayward turtles and cram fruit in there faces until they get the squirts ........:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Customcuts (Sep 22, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> If you choose to reply in such a manner then you're the only one wasting YOUR time. :cool2:
> 
> Who in the world is Aerial Mason? :alien2:[/QUOTE
> 
> Do a search for "The Aerialist" lmao. That guy is NUTS!:after_boom:


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## Carburetorless (Sep 22, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> Carburetorless said:
> 
> 
> > If you choose to reply in such a manner then you're the only one wasting YOUR time. :cool2:
> ...


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