# Head lean, Side Lean



## John Ellison (Sep 23, 2009)

I wonder if we all think of this in the same way, or if there are some different ways of looking at it.

The way I see it is, If you are not talking about falling a tree it just has a lean. It leans in the direction that it would fall if it were instantly severed from the stump.

But if you are talking about felling a tree that is where head lean and side lean come in. The main or general direction it leans is the head lean.
Walking toward the victim you notice that it in general leans off toward 12 o'clock. You want to fall it toward 3. Now (most) fallers, are going to try to make all of their cuts from the 6 o'clock position so they are not working under the lean. I know there are exceptions but most cuts under most trees are made so you are not working under the lean.
So 12 is the head lean, you are standing at 6 right where the apex of your face is and look up at the tree and see that it has more limbs on the left side, so it has an unfavorable side lean.
The side lean will change depending on where you want to fell the tree. It is in relation to where your undercut is. On the same tree (as above)if you wanted to fall it toward 9 o'clock you would work from the same position but it would have a favorable side lean. If you were shooting for 2 o'clock you would look up to check the side lean (and work) from 5. Towards 1 o'clock you would be looking up from 4 and the side lean would probably be favorable by then.
Any different ways of looking at it?
I can hardly walk by a tree without checking out its leans.


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## 2dogs (Sep 23, 2009)

12 and 3 o'clock with a head lean? If you can swing it 90o you are a better faller than I am.


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## John Ellison (Sep 23, 2009)

I am not talking about swinging a tree. Just about how we talk about lean.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 23, 2009)

Yea, from where I plan to put it, its got front or back lean, and its got this side or that side lean. Depending on these, adjustments are made.

I'm sure that if I concentrated on your description, it would be exactly as I imagine you're saying. Although head lean means forward lean the direction, or thereabouts, you want to put it--- which leads to the barberchair situation and my god forsaken bore cuts.


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## John Ellison (Sep 25, 2009)

If a tree leans back (from the intended direction) is that not still the head lean? In other words does it have to lean forward to have a head lean? I might have thought of it wrong all these years.


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## fmaglin (Sep 25, 2009)

John Ellison said:


> If a tree leans back (from the intended direction) is that not still the head lean? In other words does it have to lean forward to have a head lean? I might have thought of it wrong all these years.



If I'm understanding this right; the head lean would be determined by the natural lean of the tree and side lean would be determined according to the direction fall, or at least that's the way I've always figured it.


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## John Ellison (Sep 25, 2009)

fmaglin said:


> If I'm understanding this right; the head lean would be determined by the natural lean of the tree and side lean would be determined according to the direction fall, or at least that's the way I've always figured it.



Yes , thats the way I look at it. Every tree has head lean, sometimes it is favorable and sometimes not. HaHa I think I get confused easily.


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## Jacob J. (Sep 25, 2009)

I've always interpreted it literally. Head lean is the main lean the tree is headed for. It doesn't matter if it leans into my intended lay or if its headed out of my strip. Side lean is any additional inclination apart from the head lean. No need to make it anymore complicated than it is.


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## 2dogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> I've always interpreted it literally. Head lean is the main lean the tree is headed for. It doesn't matter if it leans into my intended lay or if its headed out of my strip. Side lean is any additional inclination apart from the head lean. No need to make it anymore complicated than it is.



Yep, same here. I'm not skilled enough to steer a tree very much if it is a head leaner but should be headed to the side of its natural lean. I've never figured how many degrees I can swing it, I just use my gut feeling. 

I will say that heavy head leaners can be really dangerous to fall due to the stress the lean puts on the wood and root system. If that tree is on steep ground it can really launch off the stump regardless of the cutting technique. Sometimes that makes the falling a little safer. 

Still I'd rather cut a head leaner than buck up a side bound tree.


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## bullbuck (Sep 26, 2009)

on a big heavy leaner i try to turn it as far away from the direction it is leaning as possible,i will put my notch in even as much as 40 to 50 degees off of head lean,just as long as i can trick it into starting into my notch it almost confuses it into thinking it wants to go that way,and thats about when the holding wood breaks off,but much of the time i can gain 10 maybe even 15 degrees?just so it doesnt hit the ground so damn hard and bust up


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## 2dogs (Sep 26, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> on a big heavy leaner i try to turn it as far away from the direction it is leaning as possible,i will put my notch in even as much as 40 to 50 degees off of head lean,just as long as i can trick it into starting into my notch it almost confuses it into thinking it wants to go that way,and thats about when the holding wood breaks off,but much of the time i can gain 10 maybe even 15 degrees?just so it doesnt hit the ground so damn hard and bust up



I've done that a few times but you have to be vewy, vewy quiet if you want trick a tree.


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## Danger Cat (Sep 29, 2009)

*Head Lead*

Gentlemen, head lean is when the tree is leaning the intended direction of falling, conversely, back lean is when the tree is not leaning the intended direction of falling. Side lean is perpendicular, either left or right, to the intended direction of falling.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 29, 2009)

Danger Cat said:


> Gentlemen, head lean is when the tree is leaning the intended direction of falling, conversely, back lean is when the tree is not leaning the intended direction of falling. Side lean is perpendicular, either left or right, to the intended direction of falling.



Thats the way I play it.


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## CanadianCarGuy (Sep 29, 2009)

The way I see leans are uphill and downhill lean. In order to properly determine the true lean you MUST determine if the tree leans uphill or downhill first. That doesn't mean the tree has to be on a hillside, if you are on flat ground and the tree is leaning toward your timber instead of the clearing then that could also be considered uphill lean. The reason for determining this lean first is so it can be properly assessed. One cannot determine the directional (where it naturally wants to go) lean looking up at the tree if it is leaning over your head (For some reason this can trick you). One must assess the directional lean from high side of the tree (if it is leaning uphill you must assess on the lower side of the tree because it will fall uphill; hence, the lower side of the tree is the high side of the hillside lean. Also you should fall the tree standing here if possible (less chance of squishing your expensive saw). Now that you know where to assess the directional lean from, you determine the primary lean (stem lean), secondary lean (limbs), and any other leans (top curving in the opposite direction of stem lean, tree leaned into it, etc). The way I do was if I can't really see for sure, use an axe as a plumb, stand perpendicular from where you wanna fall it and eye tree up from the centre of stem up to the top. I just go by where more of the volume of the tree ends up. When you are looking at the tree this way you rotate around until the tree has a lean to where you want to fall it (if you don't want to wedge or jack the tree). Also you can swing against the lean slightly, but shouldn't be tried until you are an experienced faller.


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## fmaglin (Sep 29, 2009)

John Ellison said:


> If a tree leans back (from the intended direction) is that not still the head lean? In other words does it have to lean forward to have a head lean? I might have thought of it wrong all these years.


 Wow John, lots of different interpretations here. Now I think I'm "cornfused"!


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## Jacob J. (Sep 29, 2009)

fmaglin said:


> Wow John, lots of different interpretations here. Now I think I'm "cornfused"!



This is one of those things where regional variations come into play. There's no universal standard for a lot of the terms used in the woods.


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## 2dogs (Sep 29, 2009)

Dang it! I read a post the wrong way and my reply stated just the opposite of what I meant. To me head lean means the tree is leaning in the direction I am going to fall it. Back lean means the tree is leaning 180o from where I want it to go. Sorry about the confusion.


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## Greystoke (Sep 29, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> This is one of those things where regional variations come into play. There's no universal standard for a lot of the terms used in the woods.



Isn't that the truth! All the traveling I did for Columbia, it would get very confusing sometimes, especially with tree species, and with work methods!


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## hammerlogging (Sep 29, 2009)

Keep it simple, in school I had a fellow tell me there ar 2 kinds of trees, hardwood and pine. Today, one of our hookers told me there's 2 kinds of trees he hooks, poplars and oaks. I was sittting on a hickory and pointed an ash up behind us, all oaks turns out.


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## 056 kid (Sep 29, 2009)

hahahaha hahaha.


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## John Ellison (Sep 30, 2009)

I guess it is a regional term difference. I am sticking with Every tree has a Head lean. Every body agrees on the side lean.


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## Gologit (Sep 30, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> This is one of those things where regional variations come into play. There's no universal standard for a lot of the terms used in the woods.



Well said. Even on the Left Coast, the difference in terminology between the states and even within the states makes working in a new area akin to learning a new language.

But...you could take any two fallers, from anywhere if they're real fallers, and even though their words didn't match I'd bet they'd both agree on which way the lean went.


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## Jacob J. (Sep 30, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Well said. Even on the Left Coast, the difference in terminology between the states and even within the states makes working in a new area akin to learning a new language.



You wouldn't believe it, but the most popular question I get asked at my government job is: "what's a cull?"  ...


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## Burvol (Sep 30, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> I've always interpreted it literally. Head lean is the main lean the tree is headed for. It doesn't matter if it leans into my intended lay or if its headed out of my strip. Side lean is any additional inclination apart from the head lean. No need to make it anymore complicated than it is.



Spoken like a log cutter from Orygun. That's how I interpret it. Side lean is uphill/downhill as well. How you doing Jacob?


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## Jacob J. (Sep 30, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Spoken like a log cutter from Orygun. That's how I interpret it. Side lean is uphill/downhill as well. How you doing Jacob?



I'm doing great- Another busy fire season on the books and about a 1000 acres of machine piles to burn this winter. How are things up your way J?


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## Burvol (Sep 30, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> I'm doing great- Another busy fire season on the books and about a 1000 acres of machine piles to burn this winter. How are things up your way J?



Joined the 10 grand plus in a Red Fir club (4,800 in the butt, four forties, the fifth turned into a 22 ), cut some trash, some tall wood, some blow down, now back to good tall fir in the Cascades. Had a horrible spring, but summer has been much better. Scratching out of a slump and still loving the work. I had a unit of really big wood scattered in it, and it was something to remember. No pics, this outfit doesn't care about your memories  

I'm gonna buy a ported 880 for the hell of it, we are gonna have some more 5-6 foot stuff come up. Do you know Ted at L&L? He built me one hell of a 390 last week.


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## bullbuck (Oct 1, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> You wouldn't believe it, but the most popular question I get asked at my government job is: "what's a cull?"  ...


"priceless"


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## Gologit (Oct 1, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> You wouldn't believe it, but the most popular question I get asked at my government job is: "what's a cull?"  ...



LOL...I'd be afraid to answer that one.


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## slowp (Oct 1, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> You wouldn't believe it, but the most popular question I get asked at my government job is: "what's a cull?"  ...




Since there aren't many timber people around, you can call culls 99s. As in 
"You're a 99." They might think it to be a compliment.


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## Greystoke (Oct 1, 2009)

Gologit said:


> LOL...I'd be afraid to answer that one.



That is such a useful word and has numerous definitions in my vocabulary.


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## Greystoke (Oct 1, 2009)

> =Burvol;1746037]Joined the 10 grand plus in a Red Fir club (4,800 in the butt, four forties, the fifth turned into a 22



Nice tree in today's logging world!



> No pics, this outfit doesn't care about your memories



Man, you have got to take pics!!! One of my biggest regrets is not taking the time to get good pics.




> I'm gonna buy a ported 880



I bought one from General Chainsaw in Bellingham...Thing ran like a striped assed :monkey: when I first got it, but after about 4 months I noticed that it was making some noise, so I took the cylinder off and had some significant chrome peeled on the exhaust port :jawdrop: I think they opened up the exhaust port too much. Called them about it, and they said that they would not stand behind it, so I had to order a new piston and cylinder (from Madsens). I polished the transfer and exhaust ports and left it to that, and that thing still runs like a striped assed :monkey: Maybe not quite as zippy as before, but I have not had to replace the top end!


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## 2dogs (Oct 1, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Spoken like a log cutter from Orygun. That's how I interpret it. Side lean is uphill/downhill as well. How you doing Jacob?



How does that work east of the Rockies? I think it is flat from there to the Atlantic Ocean.


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## Jacob J. (Oct 2, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Joined the 10 grand plus in a Red Fir club (4,800 in the butt, four forties, the fifth turned into a 22 ), cut some trash, some tall wood, some blow down, now back to good tall fir in the Cascades. Had a horrible spring, but summer has been much better. Scratching out of a slump and still loving the work. I had a unit of really big wood scattered in it, and it was something to remember. No pics, this outfit doesn't care about your memories
> 
> I'm gonna buy a ported 880 for the hell of it, we are gonna have some more 5-6 foot stuff come up. Do you know Ted at L&L? He built me one hell of a 390 last week.



That's sure good to hear J, especially after how slow the spring time was...I haven't been up to L&L for a while, and I don't know Ted but I may have run into him at the dealer update meetings...

I was lucky enough to get a 372 from Phil in Florence before he stopped building saws. His boy does ok but he's got a long ways to go before he's as good as the old man...


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## Meadow Beaver (Oct 2, 2009)

2dogs said:


> How does that work east of the Rockies? I think it is flat from there to the Atlantic Ocean.



ROFLMFAO!!! Flat, did you forget about the Appalachians? Because it sure isn't flat where I live.


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## Jacob J. (Oct 2, 2009)

2dogs said:


> How does that work east of the Rockies? I think it is flat from there to the Atlantic Ocean.



I worked up some fires in South Dakota and Nebraska with the hotshots, there were some pretty decent hills there.


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## 056 kid (Oct 2, 2009)

The Blue ridge bumps arent big(they are old as hell) but they can get nasty down thoes tight hollows, and across thoes sharp ridges, enough to make me sweaty!

i have cut places where if you drop your saw, it will be waiting at the bottom of the mountain.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 2, 2009)

056 kid said:


> The Blue ridge bumps arent big(they are old as hell) but they can get nasty down thoes tight hollows, and across thoes sharp ridges, enough to make me sweaty!
> 
> i have cut places where if you drop your saw, it will be waiting at the bottom of the mountain.



I work damn steep ground. 95% of the time >30% slope, 70% of the time greater than 45%, I'd say 50% of the time > 50% slope. Up to 100% slope no doubt.

Thats where the timber is.

But I think 2dogs was being facetious.


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## tramp bushler (Oct 7, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Well said. Even on the Left Coast, the difference in terminology between the states and even within the states makes working in a new area akin to learning a new language.
> 
> But...you could take any two fallers, from anywhere if they're real fallers, and even though their words didn't match I'd bet they'd both agree on which way the lean went.


,,..:agree2::agree2:..
Lot 0f good info .. here . .. I,m kind of simple minded .. For me it either leans right or wrong .. If right , Lets have er boys . on the ground and on the hat ..... If wrong , Well lets see how long this will take .... I suck at hunting in the timber .. I,m always looking up the trees and picking my lays .....


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