# Biodegradable bar oil...... anybody use it?



## NYCHA FORESTER

http://www.greenoil-online.com/chain.html


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## Ross Turner

Never used that make but have used it in the past,You are recomended to turn the oil flow down as they say you dont need to use as much,A cheaper oil is using Vegtable oil it does the same job at half the cost.


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## IndyIan

I've read that some vegetable oils oxidize and will leave a hard film or build up which could be a problem. I think some other types don't oxidize, the evaporate, which makes them better for chainsaw use. Which ones don't oxidize I couldn't tell you. 

Ian


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## Stumper

I use Vegetable oil in my PowerPruner and in my climbing saw. It works very well. It actually flows a little easier than standard bar oil and pumps better through the marginal systems that some small units have. The oxidizing is real but unimportant-It doesn't harden in the tank or anything. The spillage on the outside of the tank of the PP has turned to varnish-it will dissolve with solvent and a little elbow greas but doesn't bother me. The area under the bar cover gets new oil thrown on it along with chips and has never hardened between cleanings.


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## BewtifulTreeMan

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *I use Vegetable oil in my PowerPruner and in my climbing saw. *



Hey stumper, why?

is it better for the tree?


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## Nickrosis

He just said why.


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## BewtifulTreeMan

ok, so it flows better. maybe i should go fill my saw with water, i bet that'll flow better too. 

I just thought there must be more to it, 
but i guess if he has been using it a while and his bars and chains don't wear excessively, then that is a good enough indication of how it works as a lubricant.

i havent seen any reason to switch to veg oil, thought maybe stumper could enlighten me

sorry guys, i didn't mean to troll


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## P_woozel

At STP they use canola oil and it "flows well" never really thought that was an issue with bar oil, usually wanting more tack, I dont like it due to poor lubrication on the longer bars and theassociated stretch.


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## Timberjackboy

*burned oil*

Poeple will give a way brunt oil. and you may go through a bar alittle afster useing burnt oil but by the time you factor in how much you ahve saved in money, it don't make much diference. Its a lot cheaper, plus its putting old oil to good use.


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## bwalker

I have never seen bio bar oil in use. or even for sale for that matter.


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## Newfie

$18 a gallon at my Husky dealer. He only carries it because Asplundh is required to use it around here on ROW work. No thank you.


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## cybergeek23851

Newfie said:


> $18 a gallon at my Husky dealer. He only carries it because Asplundh is required to use it around here on ROW work. No thank you.



Aye! Right in the money maker. I mean a gallon of standard Chain and Bar lube will run you about 3-4 dollars if I remember correctly, or basically the price for an average gal of veggie oil.


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## Tree Machine

*I will never, ever go back*

I've been using vegetable oil for 4 years now, both Summer and Winter, in both the 346's and the 395's and power pruner.

Just today I did one of those really stupid things, where you do gas and oil, pick up your saw, but forget to put the oil cap back on. Didn't notice until I'd drenched my right-side chainsaw pants and boot, and the rest on the ground. I seem to do this at least once a year. Anyway, no big deal because it was only vegetable oil.

I don't recommend veggie oil for guys who don't run the saws regularly (it will oxidize, given enough time). For those of us who run them daily, or even a few times a week, I highly recommend it, as it is run through long before there is a chance for it to oxidize. I also suggest it for both health reasons, and environmental reasons.

If you don't give a crap about your health, or refuse to ignore that you're spinning off atomized particles of oil into the air, which you inevitably breath in, then put in used motor oil, like Timberjackboy. It's cheap, it stinks, what the heck? You're also probably aware that the 'bar oil' particles end up on your gloves, hands, hair and clothing. Wash your oily pants with socks, shirts and underwear and minor amounts will cling to those non-oily clothes, as there is no perfect detergent, and petoleum-based oil is not very soluble. I would guess that some might even stick to the inside of the washing machine. Just a guess. It doesn't matter, though. Your wife doesn't know when she goes to wash your sheets, or your children's clothing. As long as nobody knows, it's OK....

I apologise if the truth seems somewhat sarcastic. It's not a matter of whether you believe that stuff or not. It simply is what it is.

Having used nothing but vegetable oil as my bar lubricant for so many years now, I will gladly and freely offer to answer any question that anybody has. I may not know you, but I care about you. I also care deeply about the environment, but I don't particularly care about stimulating the economy of the petrochemical industry. 

Bar oil leaks, bar oil gets spilled, bar oil ends up on the ground, in the sawdust, on the firewood and on the ground. That's just the truth, and you all know it. 

If you REALLY care about the oil oxidizing, break a Vitamin E gel cap into the next gallon of corn, soybean, canola, peanut or vegetable oil you buy. Vitamin E is a powerful, fat-soluble antioxidant. I personally have never done this because most food oil manufacturers already add it to extend the shelf life. Veggie oil costs around $5 a gallon. I'm ready for any questions.


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## Jumper

I have run used canola oil in my saws a couple of times, with no apparent side effects. Just made sure it was strained first to get rid of the food particles in it. I can get kind of thick on a cold winter's day around here though this is maybe less of a problem for those further south. Given detergents are also petroleum derived the fact that maybe there is a little dissolved oil on the inside of the washing machine is no bigee.


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## Tree Machine

Hmmmm..... :Eye:


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## Nathan Wreyford

Tree Machine said:


> Just today I did one of those really stupid things, where you do gas and oil, pick up your saw, but forget to put the oil cap back on. Didn't notice until I'd drenched my right-side chainsaw pants and boot, and the rest on the ground.



Glad I wasn't the only one today!! Actually, the other climber was nice enough to fill up my saw and I had to start the 20F morning felling a larch with oily boots, pants, and flipline  

I use what I can get. Bio-oil is very common here.


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## Mange

There has been many experiments started in the 60's. 
Now almost all Pro loggers here has veg. oil. 
The forrest companys has all harvester machines going on this.


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## Timberjackboy

*jeeze*

do you boys drive cars and trucks expecially you TRE MACHINE? oh oh you don't give a???? about the environment. WEll heck go with the BURNED OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS WAY CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why isn't everyone still useing horses? instead they choose to use skidders and harvesting machines because they care more about productivity and cost then the nevironment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so go with the burned oil!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sedanman

I for one value my saws and my health too much to use waste oil as bar lubricant. Waste oil has no tack agent in it and REALLY flies off the bar, to the point where the operator is in a mist of toxic waste. Stihl has a laboratory study on wate oil leading to engine failure because the saw inhaled the oil. Want to CARE for the environment?, re-cycle used oil and run bio oil in your chainsaw. I personally use regular bar oil because I am not a full time sawyer and don't need the posiibility of the oil going bad in the tank. A friend of mine who IS a full time user switched to bio oil on the advise of his dermatologist and his psoriosis cleared up.


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## Timberjackboy

*yeah*

Never had a problem with waste oil causeing enegine faiure? might wear the bar out alitle faster. But look at it this way. You can get a 150 gallon barrel of used oild for free, when chain oil runs 5-10 bucks a jug canadian, and thats not a whole lot of oil. But i do see your point as bio oil being better for the evnironemnt but its pretty expensive


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## glens

TJB,

Maybe it's all a conspiracy by the oil companies, but for the moment let's pretend that they are truthful and used motor oils are harmful to handle due to the concentrated contaminants they carry.&nbsp; Let's also say you're safe and wear your Playtex Living Gloves whenever you fill your bar oil reservoir.&nbsp; Do you deny that there is a fine mist aura in the vicinity of your bar when the chain is in service?&nbsp; Is it indeed possible for you to come in contact with that mist while using your saw?

You're young and will probably live for ever with no detrimental effects from any other activity so you'll be entirely safe in this as well.

You <i>do</i> filter out the metallic and other debris your used motor oil contains, before you put it in your chainsaw, right?&nbsp; The oil pump does not like to contend with wear-caused-and-causing material, and neither do the bar and chain.

We're probably all better off if you take your used oil and recycle it so those with the leaking oil pans, valve stem seals, and piston rings can buy it for half price at the Quickie-Mart.

Glen


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## Stumper

TimberjackBOY, I an not an environmental whacko. I am not terrified of bar oil -I use vegetable oil in my climbing saw and powerpruner because I think it MIGHT be better for the trees I prune, the climbing saw throws more stuff in my face than a "normal" chainsaw usage would and it DEFINITELY works better in those saws. I use standard bar oil in my large saws without fear or guilt-but am considering extending my use of veggie oil for my own benefit. Used motor oil is an extremely stupid way to "save" money. Several people are trying to explain this to you. Please listen.


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## Mange

The bar oil has qualities that engine oils don't and wise versa. Do you put wasted transmission oils in as well?, or fresh even.
The veg. oil is still a bar oil with all its qualities, and here is not much difference in price. I run dino oil in my 152 saws, but that is for no special reason. As for cleaning this veg. oil that can be a sad moment.
Here it is not much different in consistence, even a little slower, and Husqvarna mean you can reduce the amount of oil on to the bar, with same result.


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## Tree Machine

*This is not a frickin joke*

Timberjackboy, I'm only going on over this because I DID use spent chipper oil for awhile. It made sense to me; out of the chipper, into a gallon jug, ready for use in the saws. It saved me having to store it, transport it to the oil recycling place, etc. It _seemed_ more environmentally sensible, besides being free.

But I only ran a couple gallons through. I can talk to you firsthand and tell you the smell of used oil reeks of stanky stankity stank. The 'aura of mist' Glen refers to is real, and if the wind is not in your favor, it's on you. Since you have no choice but to breath, it's in you. We chainsaw users have enough poison going into us with the occasional inhalation of exhaust fumes.

The human bod can only take so much of this, and then I refer back to the washing of your clothes and having cross-contamination into other parts of your laundry, a gift from you to the ones you love.

TJB, it's just not worth prostituting your health to save a few bucks. The cost of chemotherapy will far exceed the savings you feel you enjoy now. Extrapolate 20 years down the road, try to imagine the amount of oil funk you'll ingest, inhale and wear in contact with your skin. Ask yourself, is it _really_ worth it in exchange for a few dollars saved? I'm not preaching some personal gospel here. You're a fellow tree man-chainsaw brother and I care about you.


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## bwalker

Used mototr oil is full of nasty carcinogens and heavy metals. Not to mention the fact that it is acidic and over time will attack the magnesium/aluminum parts on your saw and its oiling system.  
Now, as far as Bio oil goes. I cant use it at the price it sells for now. I dont really condisder veggy oil a alternative because it has no tac agent and breathing it is probaly no better than breathing regular bar oil.
On alternative that i would like to see would be a ester based bar oil and also one made out of food grade dino oil(aka baby oil). Both would be better than regular bar oil and would cost much less than the bio stuff.


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## Tree Machine

> breathing it is probaly no better than breathing regular bar oil.


Huh? whaa??


> food grade dino oil(aka baby oil)


You are describing a slippery, petoleum-based chemical.


> Now, as far as Bio oil goes. I cant use it at the price it sells for now.



Are you talking 'bio oil' as in a Brand-name product called 'Bio oil'?, or do you mean biological oil like a food oil or do you mean biodegradable oil like anything that would biodegrade (which can mean ANY oil, technically speaking?

Let me focus that question; Bio-oil, like commercial bar oil that is marketed and sold as bar oil, THAT is the stuff that is too expensive, yes?

Well, yes. That stuff is expensive. I don't know why. I imagine it's 99% vegetable oil. How much does that stuff cost?



> it has no tac agent


This, I feel, is the largest conspiracy ever attempted on a population our size. Saw users _forever_ have been guided as a flock of chainsaw-wielding sheep, and we were told to use petroleum-based oil and that it had this cool additive called Tac. Tac is an additive that theoretically keeps the oil from flying off the chain. 

I remember years ago filling up a tank of gas and oil. When you run out of gas, ya basically run out of oil. But this oil had _TAC_ in it. Tac keeps the oil from flying off the chain.

But I filled a tank of oil, and not a tank of oil left on the bar. In fact, there's essentially _no_ oil left on it, just a deposit in the guide rail. Where did the rest of the oil go? That's right, men, it flew off the bar.

Think about it, a tank in, a tank out, none of it stays with the bar. It passes through, and into the wood you are cutting.

Whether Tac is real, or whether it was some deliberate marketing scheme that we took as truth, and have used ever since by convention (i.e. the way it's always been done...), the fact of the matter is that no matter what you put in the oil tank, it's gonna fly off the bar.

For the environmental record, I think tac and the whole concept of Tac is the biggest spoonful of crap we've ever been fed. The benefit is a _perceived one only!_ You do the math, tank in, tank out.

I'm sorry to have called us sheep, that was just metaphorical. It is not our fault; we inherited it from our forefathers


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## glens

Hi Jim.

I don't know specifically what they're using for a tack additive, but it <i>does</i> help to keep the lubricant from flinging off the chain quite so rapidly.&nbsp; I first became aware of lubricants with such additives back in my motorcycle days, using them on my drive chain.&nbsp; They <i>do</i> make a difference.

Perhaps you feel they can't <i>really</i> make a 5-weight oil behave like a 30-weight oil when it's hotter and would normally become thinner.&nbsp; Do you run straight or multi-weight oil in your crankcase?

Back to the overall discussion, assuming none of the oil ended up on/in one's person, but instead was totally deposited elsewhere, the equivalent would be taking a gallon of whatever oil (animal/vegetable/mineral/synthetic in new/used form), opening the container, and dribbling it on the ground as you walked along.&nbsp; Which form of lubricant sufficient for the chain/bar would be the best to do that with?&nbsp; Other than everyone acknowledging the used oil as bad (and they should), how much of a difference does it really make between the new products?&nbsp; (maybe other than the feeling I have in general that it might be a bad idea to spew synthetics around) 

Glen


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## bwalker

Glen,ld like to point out the ester based synthetics are many times better than dino oils in regards to bio degradation.


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## bwalker

BTW I wouldnt assume that inhalling vegi oil is nay better for you than in halling virgin petrol bar oil.


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## Tree Machine

*Think indepedently*

Vegi oil is food. We've been putting it in our bodies all our lives, albeit, not in our lungs. It is non-toxic, generally recognized as safe. We still try not to inhale it.

Still believing in the Tac theory, Glen, as applied to a chainsaw?. OK, try this. Take your oil that has tac in it. Put three or 4 drops on your right thumb and squeeze those drops using your right forefinger. Now pull your thumb and forefinger apart. See how that oil behaves? like a dozen little 'threads. That's what Tac does. It makes petoleum-based oil 'sticky'

So why does this sticky oil not stay on the bar and chain? Just as much that goes on, comes off. If you could turn your oiler down to half, then your tac would be allowing you to use 50% of the amount of oil you'd normally use. This would be good. Nobody really messes with the oil flow adjustment though. One tank in = one tank into the environment. It's not like a motorcycle chain. There, you oil the chain and you want the oil to stay on so you don't have to re-oil very often. 

In a chainsaw, oiling is continuous. There is always oil being pumped into the guide bar, right where is needs to be, keeping the driver links and rail lubed. Attempting to keep the oil ON the chain is a flat out folly if you are continuously pumping it in. If you are continuously pumping it in, the chain is pretty much assured of staying lubricated, both the top rail, and the bottom rail, driver links, bar tip and and drive sprocket. Some of it will stay in the rail groove, some will fly off. This will be true whether petrochemical, 5-weight, 50-weight, synthetic oil, mineral oil, bio-oil, or straight-up canola or corn oil. One tank in = one tank out. That is just how it is. 

Where does that tank of bar oil go? Just think about it the next time you're running a saw. It may be invisible to you where exactly your bar oil is going, but that does not make it any less real that it is going somewhere. I'm not asking anyone to change, just to consider that maybe, _just mebbe_ we've all been fed a line if crap for a long time. The fact that Sweden uses nothing but biodegradable oil should say something to the rest of us. American treeguys, this is just part of our upbringing as a nation who uses and often wastes petoleum products without even considering the impact or repercussions. I would go as far as to say it is a brainwash. All we look at is cost. 

I invite you to be objective reevaluate this outdated truth and consider the Tac issue as a marketing ploy to get you to buy a product called 'Bar oil' rather than a product called '10W-40 motor oil', both are nearly identical. Those industries just want to sell you their product. They don't want you to know peanut oil will work equally well as bar lubricant because they will sell less Dino oil and it will cut into their profits. This _is_ the bottom line.


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## glens

Jim,

I agree with you almost entirely <i>except</i> for your tack additive position.&nbsp; Nobody is saying it's meant to keep the oil on the bar indefinitely, and direct comparison to motorcycle drive chain is stretching it a little.&nbsp; On the bike, the only external wear takes place as the side plates conform to the pitch diameter of the sprocket and again when it leaves for the span to the other.&nbsp; On a chainsaw, there is friction between the chain and the bar most all the way around the circuit.

The tack additive is to ensure that some of the oil will still be present to fling off while the chain is rounding the drive sprocket.&nbsp; Whatever lubricant you're using, it hangs on well enough if you've got some being dispersed inside your clutch cover.&nbsp; If it takes an additive of <i>whatever kind</i> to allow that to happen, it's worth the couple of pennies.&nbsp; Again, the tack additive is not meant to completely prevent the oil from being flung off the chain; its purpose is merely to delay it.&nbsp; And that it does.&nbsp; It also extends the temperature range where the oil is suitable.&nbsp; You would need less tack additive with 90-weight than with 5, but you couldn't use the heavier oil in cooler temperatures.

Actually, "bar oil" is cheaper than 10w40, anyway.

Glen


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## Tree Machine

glens said:


> Jim, direct comparison to motorcycle drive chain is stretching it a little


I don't feel I intended a comparison, as they're two different needs. I just stated a fact or two as I used to ride motorcycles, too.


glens said:


> On a chainsaw, there is friction between the chain and the bar most all the way around the circuit. The tack additive is to ensure that some of the oil will still be present to fling off while the chain is rounding the drive sprocket.


And my statement is this: Lubricant will stay on the chain, enough to lubricate the bar sufficiently, whether it has tac, does not have tac, is used motor oil, new motor oil, synthetic oil, corn, soybean, canola.... enough will make it around to keep both the bar's topside and the underside lubricated. If it did not, you would know it within severel tanks of tac-less oil that something's not right. Right?.

I have put through severel _Hundred_ tanks, and have never, not even once, had problems with my bar not getting proper lubricant. The 395 with the 3 foot bar is testimony. I run that thing like a banshee through big wood at full RPMs for long periods. Veggie oil works just swell.


glens said:


> Again, the tack additive is not meant to completely prevent the oil from being flung off the chain; its purpose is merely to delay it. And that it does.Glen


And I say it does not; not enough to make it superior over biodegradable lubricants. I have firsthand experience in this over the course of years of commercial tree service. Oil with Tac lubricates the bar acceptably. Canola oil lubricates the bar acceptably. Both oils are, in this sense, are equal.


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## Tree Machine

Honestly, Tac is the biggest dupe we've ever experienced. It's benefit is negligible. I'm not sure chemically what Tac even is, but I'll bet if we knew, it would be a chemical foreign to our bodies, and maybe toxic. 

Personally, I think only the concept exists. I think the reality of Tac can be viewed as a marketing tool to get us to buy certain oil. We've been living this as gospel, and have been faithfully and unquestioningly buying this stuff listed as 'bar oil' because that's just the way its always been. Conventional 'wisdom'.

If there are readers out there who sell bar oil, you will naturally be biased and in disagreement with all this. That's because you make money from the sales of it. I'm sorry to put you in the position of this information, but we need to be ecologically responsible. We are tree care professionals, stewards to the environment.... and we're spraying tank after tank of persistent, petroleum-based oil into the environment day after day? Sort of a disconnect there between intent and result.


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## glens

You're not arguing just against what I've said, Jim.&nbsp; There is no such magical thing you're referring to as "Tac".&nbsp; It's just some compound which increases the ability of the oil (of whatever kind) to stay attached to the chain in the face of adverse conditions.&nbsp; Without it, whatever lubricant you're using, you <i>will use more in any given time frame</i> than with it.&nbsp; It may be a wash in cost, and it may be more detrimental to the environment on any or all levels; or not.

I'm not advocating one lubricant type over another; merely stating that with a tack additive, <i>any</i> oil will stay on the chain measurably longer, thus decreasing the flow rate required.

Good evening.&nbsp; I've been sending some wind your way, did it make it there okay?

Glen


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## Tree Machine

glens said:


> It's just some compound which increases the ability of the oil (of whatever kind) to stay attached to the chain in the face of adverse conditions.Glen


"Some compound" ? could you define that more clearly for us. I'm somewhat curious as to know WHAT this compound is. What do you mean by, "adverse conditions?"


glens said:


> Without it (Tac) whatever lubricant you're using, you <i>will use more in any given time frame</i> than with it.Glen


Tank in STILL = tank out. Tac does not 'cause' the use of less oil. Only the saw operator tweaking down the flow control does this. Practically speaking, nobody messes much with the oiler flow control. Many saw users don't even know where it is. Most don't care and will use the saw at the factory setting, so unless YOU turn down your oiler adjustment, there will NOT be less oil used in any given time frame. No matter what your flow rate, as much as you put on will equal the amount that comes off.


glens said:


> merely stating that with a tack additive, <i>any</i> oil will stay on the chain measurably longer, thus decreasing the flow rate required. Glen


For the sake of rational argument, I will agree on that last point (even though I don't) And the point I still try to get you to see is that there becomes an equilibrium where the amount of oil going onto the chain equals the amount of oil going off the chain, making tac essentially functionless. 

Glen, you're going on heresay passed down through generations of saw users through the preachings of those who sell the product, and possible the saw manufacturers going along with it out of convenience.


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## glens

Hi JIm.&nbsp; Did you get that wind I sent your way last night?


Tree Machine said:


> Tank in STILL = tank out. Tac does not 'cause' the use of less oil. Only the saw operator tweaking down the flow control does this.


Once again, Jim, I say you're not arguing against anything I've said.&nbsp; Saying it the other way 'round, you're arguing against things I <i>didn't</i> say.

I don't have the foggiest notion what it is that you're referring to by "Tac".&nbsp; It seems as if for some reason you think it's supposed to be some magical elixir that, given the chance, might even transform lead into gold or something.&nbsp; All I know is that there are additives which make lubricants variously behave in ways inconsistent with their "natural" tendencies.&nbsp; One type of them allows motor oils to behave like a finer oil when cold and like a heavier oil when hot.&nbsp; Are you denying <i>that</i>?&nbsp; If not, why suggest that lubricants cannot be made to to their job while also adhering more strongly to the surface they're on?


> glens said:
> 
> 
> 
> merely stating that with a tack additive, any oil will stay on the chain measurably longer, thus decreasing the flow rate required.
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of rational argument, I will agree on that last point (even though I don't) And the point I still try to get you to see is that there becomes an equilibrium where the amount of oil going onto the chain equals the amount of oil going off the chain, making tac essentially functionless.
Click to expand...

Jim, you do not need to waste another moment of energy trying to get me to see that most all the oil you put on the chain ends up off the chain eventually.&nbsp; I've not even <i>considered</i> trying to say that it doesn't.&nbsp; In <i>that</i> sense, your "tac" <i>is</i> essentially functionless.&nbsp; But, where you're not thinking this through is when you argue that the oil flings off the chain <i>at the same rate</i> with or without the tack additives.&nbsp; This is really what you're saying, and it's understandable if you honestly think oil cannot be made to adhere more strongly to the chain components.&nbsp; That does not make it a correct position to take, however.


> Glen, you're going on heresay passed down through generations of saw users through the preachings of those who sell the product, and possible the saw manufacturers going along with it out of convenience.


I'm not even listening to them.&nbsp; Rather, I'm going on past experience using various lubricants in various ways and noting the results.&nbsp; If I use 10W-40 on my motorcycle chain and it's everywhere but on the chain after one block, but it stays on for hundreds of miles if I use a lubricant with tack additive, I don't need to send a letter to Johnny Carson and have him hold it up to his turban to see if it's true.&nbsp; That the same effect can be and is had with chainsaw chain is a no-brainer, and I truly don't understand your position on this.

Glen


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## caryr




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## Tree Machine

*Yea, let's shift back to topic*

Thanks for the wind yesterday, Glen. Had to crown reduce a monster Bradford Pear, tossing the material downwind of the crown. It helped my job along.

Boiling it down, vegetable oil, without tac keeps a CHAINSAW bar, rail and groove and drivers lubricated. This is just sheer fact. Why then, is is to my advantage to use a bio-toxic, petroleum-based oil that _has_ Tac to achieve the same result?

I'm sorry I argued against things you didn't say, Glen. I just try to speak from a practical standpoint, from direct experience over time.

Anyway this thread is not about Tac, or petroleum-based bar oil, but, as Caryr notes, is about biodegradable oil. How about something on the topic of that? Questions about any noticible downsides? Instances where you would NOT want to use biodegradable oil? Long-term effects of the use of biodegradable oil on the saw? Negative points you might want to know about? Oil behavior in sub-freezing temperatures? These would be good questions to ask.


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## Timberjackboy

*Burnt Oil*

 Listen boys!!! Burnt oil may affect the life of your chain and bar alittle bit, but as far a sthe rest of the saw goes i get just as much running out of them as anyone else who uses regualar chain oil. apparently noone of you ahve used it so shut up about the negative stuff till you actually try it


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## Tree Machine

Down, Simba.


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## Stumper

Tj. Hmmmm.... I missed the part where we all said that we had never used "burnt" oil. Some of us have-and know it is a STUPID idea. :angel:


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## caryr




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## bwalker

Tac-less oil leads to decreased bar and tip life. And BTW "tac" is a real thing. Go to a major oil companys web site and do a search for Visitac.
FWIW I dont think inhaling vegi oil is good and I dont think inhalling Dino or vegi oil is good.


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## Tree Machine

*I'm glad 'Tac' is a real thing*



bwalker said:


> Tac-less oil leads to decreased bar and tip life.


Do you say this because you have personally experienced this, or is that the general claim that we've all come to understand. I'm serious, bwalker, did you find this to be true when you were using tacless oil and comparing bar wear with oil that has tac? or is this someone else's words coming out of you? Ahh, let me guess, you <i>sell</i> bar oil !

My bars <u>don't</u> wear out faster. I used bar oils with Tac for 7 years, and straight vegetable oil for the last three, going on 4. From this personal experience, I noted no difference in bar wear between the two oils, and have never needed to replace a bar tip. 

Claims are made all the time, in all parts of the selling of anything. Features are part of ANY product. They are 'selling points'. Marketers call this 'product advantage', where there are a number of similar competitive products, and one has some claim or feature, or spin, or gimmick that gets people to buy more of it than of its competitors. The manufacturers hope the consumers will take the information hook, line and sinker, and never question it..... just keep on buying their stuff.


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## glens

http://www.functionalproducts.com/

There's absolutely no doubt that tackifiers reduce the amount of oil expended to lubricate the bar/chain when they are added to the oil and the flow rate is properly adjusted.&nbsp; If you browse around the URL I provided, you'll see they make many types of the product.&nbsp; What it boils down to is whether it's either a cost-effective thing to do (does it save you enough oil over time to at least cover the cost of the additive?) or, if you're environmentally-minded, it doesn't matter quite so much if it does cover its own cost or not because it's allowing for less oil being dumped into the ecosystem.

A lot of people don't believe we're really capable of putting a man on the moon, either.

Putting at least enough oil into the bar/chain will always lubricate it sufficiently unless maybe you're using something entirely unsuitable, such as used motor oil.

It looks like "Tac" might be part of a trade name for a line of tackifiers:&nbsp; http://www.addapt-chem.com/HTML/Products/lubricants.asp

Glen


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## NeTree

Glen, it occurs to me that the biggest function of any tackifier is to enable the lubricant to adhere past the nose, where its inertia has a tendancy to throw the lubricant off rather than carry it around to the bottom where the work is really being done.

So in essense, less becomes more, and the woods and waters are better off for it.


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## bwalker

Tree Machine, I have run oils other than bar and chain lube, but not long enough to form any oppinion of value. I do have work expierance with industrial chains and their lubrication. I might also add that you might want to talk to forum member Jokers in regards to the decrease in sprocket tip lif he got while using hydraulic oil as bar lube.
In short a tac agent is there for a reason. If it where not usefull a oil company would not be putting it in the blend.


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## Tree Machine

I'm glad to know about Glen's motorcycle chain, and I respect your having used different lubricants on industrial chains. 

Did any of your industrial chains remotely resemble a bar and chain on a chainsaw? Something that spins up to ten or twelve thousand RPM with continuous RPM-dependent oiling and such?


For the sake of simplicity, can we just talk about lubricating a chainsaw's bar and chain?


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## sedanman

Let's see, the ENGINE turns 13,000 rpm with a 7 tooth sprocket it moves 7 drivers with each revolution, 70 driver chain would turn 1,300 revolutions per minute. Centrifugal force tries to pull the spinning loop into a circle, this force is countered by the drive sprocket and the nose sprocket, so there's really only forceful sliding contact where the chain meets the wood and is resisted by the bar, ususally the bottom of the bar, I want tac in the oil to HOPEFULLY allow SOME of the oil to make the 180 degree turn at the bar nose to get to where it's needed.


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## glens

Paul, don't forget that the slack in the chain is greatest coming off the drive sprocket, and for some reason the chain tends to want to continue traveling in the arc as it comes off that sprocket, so it slams into the bar rails before it can even get to where it could pick up more oil again.&nbsp; There are <i>two</i> places where the chain is centrifugally spitting the oil off itself and I really prefer having some oil still on it after both of them.&nbsp; The only way to ensure that when using non-modified oil is to copiously pump it.

Jim, have you ever compared straight oil with the same oil plus tackifier in any real world scenario, or are you just speculating?

Glen


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## sedanman

The one thing that I will concede is that the rpm of the chain is meaningless. The chain speed is measured in feet per second or miles per hour since it is essentially linear travel. The chain on most saws with a 7 tooth sprocket is travelling nearly 60mph.


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## Tree Machine

Yes, I've used non-tac oil; back in the days when I ran regular bar oil and I would run out, I would then use regular 10-W-40 motor oil til I got a new jug. Is this the sort of comparison you ask of?

OK, I'll be more comparative, and just for kicks, you guys can try this.

Using your tacified oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff.
Using regular non-tacified motor oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff. Using vegetable oil, gun the chainsaw with the tip near a clean surface. You will see spinoff.

But we already knew that.

Glen says this,


> The only way to ensure that when using non-modified oil is to copiously pump it.


 but overlooks the obvious.

Spinoff is highest at the highest RPM, and diminishes as the RPM's diminish (as does the flow from the pump). Professional and novice saw operators do not run their saws at high RPM's 100% of the time, which, I'm quite certain, nobody does. On the way up to full power, oil is injected and distributed. On powering down oil is injected and distributed. During these times, even though oil injection is less than at full speed, so too dimninished is the degree of spinoff.

If you want to ensure the bar stays lubricated, using non-tacified oil, just tickle the trigger lightly a time or two between cuts. Personally, I have never had to concern myself with that detail.


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## Stumper

I've been reading you guys' arguments for a while now. Tell me if everyone agrees with this: Tacking agents are viscosity modifiers designed to increase film strength and reduce sling off. Whille there is no denying that chainsaw bar and chain is used in a total loss system (all the oil in the tank goes out the chain/bar and is lost at some point so that refilling the reservoir is needed on a regular basis), Tacking agents are intended to modify the way in with the lube is lost- allowing more of the oil to round the bar nose and drive sprocket prior to its replacement and elimination. While a large amount of oil is reassuring and offers some advantages in preventing and or dissolving resin deposits on the chain only a very small film is needed to reduce friction between polished surfaces. More non tack oil is probably lost at the bar nose on the first revolution than the percantage of tackified oil. Since the essential amount of oil is usually less than we choose to run (we want a good measure buffer) the greater loss of non-Tack oil at the first turn may not increase bar rail wear. In the case of vegetable oil, it is a better solvent for most saps and resins than petroleum derived oils. Even if less oil is carried to the underside of the bar on each revolution The washing action of the oil slinging off keeps a film on the rivets and prevents build up of resins on cutters and tie straps very well. Tacking agents are added for a reason and have potential benefits but have proven over the course of the chainsaw's history to NOT be essential.

Okay ,pick it apart. :angel:


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## Crofter

Stumper; Thank you!


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## bwalker

Tac additives are not viscosity modifiers. Viscosity modifiers are polymer based additives that expand with heat so as to keep oil from thinning out to much. Tac additives make the oil "tacky" or sticky regardless of viscosity.


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## Chris J.

*Thank you to those of you who*

use the environmentally friendly oils & take your used dino oil to be recycled. Every little bit helps.


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## Tree Machine

And Thank YOU, Knot hole. And Walker for describing the differences in terms and properties, and Mr Stumper, who said,


> only a very small film is needed to reduce friction between polished surfaces.


 and THAT is another truth.

Thank you all for all the tidbits of information. This gets to the real nuts and bolts of this topic.

I wonder if the $18 a gallon enviro-oil has tac additives?


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## Stumper

Jim, Yes, the high priced enviro oils have tack additives. 

Ben, Thank you for distinguishing between viscosity modifiers and tacking agents. FWIW tacking agents effect viscosity -particularly at temperature extremes-and are also polymer chains that are mixed into the oil but I think your distinction is proper industry terminology.


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## Tree Machine

Thank you, Mr Stumper. I kinda thought that might be the case. So Tac has the ability to change corn oil from a $5 a gallon commodity you can get just about anywhere, to an $18 a gallon, environmentally conscious, ecologically responsible, sometimes-hard-to-find specialty product.

Huh. Tac has the ability to make money go out of my wallet at almost quadruple the rate it does now. Tac is truly amazing stuff.


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## Stumper

Well Jim, what is you want-to sling the oil off the chain at the first turn or sling the money out of your wallet at the first opening?


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## Tree Machine

Huh, whaa....?


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## glens

Jim,

I'm still quite puzzled by your demeanor in this thread.&nbsp; Nobody is declaring untrue whatever it is you're trying to defend.

My synopsis is:<blockquote>you - "tackifiers are useless and no better than snake oil"
me - "not true; tackifiers perform a valid and useful service"
you - "oil on = oil off"
me - "true; but the cycle happens less rapidly when using tackified oil (of whatever kind) and modifying the pump output accordingly"
you - "tackifiers are useless and no better than snake oil"</blockquote>I don't know what to say any differently, but I'll try again.&nbsp; Maybe you'll actually read it this time...

Using your grocery store oil is cheaper than using tackified specially-blended bar oil when you're running your pump wide open (or at any setting greater than what you actually need).&nbsp; If the cost balance works out, you could save even more dinero if you added a suitable tackifier and turned your pump down accordingly.

Are you actually arguing against anything in that last paragraph?

Glen


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## Tree Machine

No argument in this last paragraph whatsoever.

I could argue it, except I don't have enough information to validate the argument. The argument would look like this: I can use corn oil off the shelf, AND turn my oiler down, and still have it lubricating the bar and chain just fine. I really don't know this for certain because I have never personally tried it. Like many saw operators, I leave the oiler set right where it was when it came from the factory. I do believe, however, based on the oiling performance over the last three years using straight vegetable oil, that I am already over-oiling the bar and chain. Just haven't felt the burning desire to turn the oiler adjustment down a bit. The savings could be stupendous.

So, Glen, since you brought it up in the last paragraph, and I am intrigued as to how this will work in real-use, what suitable tacifier would you suggest I use in my canola oil before I go turning my oil pump down and saving some <i>real</i> dinero? Are you using something you're not telling us about? No? So you have information on what this 'suitable tacifier' might be? No? Mebbe where to buy it in blisterpacs to be added to one gallon of vegetable oil? How much will it cost to treat a gallion of veggie oil? Will it's cost be offset by the diminished amount of oil I will then need to use? Is the tacifier itself toxic? Or are you just tossing out a hypothetical 'this should work' scenario? 

I really DO want to believe in the utility of tacifiers, however they have disproven their necessity to me, over time, as applied to a chainsaw's bar, chain, tip, sprocket and oiler mechanism


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## glens

> what suitable tacifier would you suggest I use in my canola oil before I go turning my oil pump down and saving some real dinero? Are you using something you're not telling us about? No? So you have information on what this 'suitable tacifier' might be? No? Mebbe where to buy it in blisterpacs to be added to one gallon of vegetable oil? How much will it cost to treat a gallion of veggie oil? Will it's cost be offset by the diminished amount of oil I will then need to use? Is the tacifier itself toxic? Or are you just tossing out a hypothetical 'this should work' scenario?


I have never (except in the rare pinch) used anything other than packaged bar/chain oil with tackifier, so I cannot answer your question other than by providing the links to a couple of manufacturer's sites earlier in the thread.&nbsp; They should be able to help you find answers to your availability questions.&nbsp; Regarding the cost offset and/or savings, and almost every other question you ask in those last few sentences, I think they're pretty much the same questions I previously asked you; or at the least are items I'd brought up as points of possible consideration for which I did not know the answer.

I don't know how you can possibly say their necessity has been disproven to you since you admit you've never tried them, much less adjusted your oiler.

This discussion, it seems, includes environmental aspects by the very nature of the topic, and using more than one needs, of whatever lubricant, cannot be good for anybody or anything except maybe the oil producer and the user's bar and chain.

Glen


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## Tree Machine

glens said:


> I don't know how you can possibly say their necessity has been disproven to you since you admit you've never tried them.Glen


 I appreciate you paraphrasing my words correctly. <b>"they have disproven their necessity to me, over time, as applied to a chainsaw's bar, chain, tip, sprocket and oiler mechanism</b>.

See, I am only speaking for myself, not making some broad, shotgun generalization to all. This is just my experience, and I am sharing it openly.

As far as the tacifiers having disproven themselves to me, that goes back to my first 7 years as petroleum-based bar oil user. in a pinch I would use 10-W-40 motor oil and it worked fine. I believe motor oil formulations have viscosity agents, but not tacifiers. Correct me if I'm wrong. The motor oil seemed to work fine and I have used regular motor oil many dozens of times over the years. Not every local hardware store stocks bar oil, and I've never been willing to go way out of my way (especially mid-job) to hunt down bar oil with tac.

Veggie oil also works fine. To add a tacifier means the veggie oil would work more fine? You're saying I could then use less of it. Fair enough. If it would not add a lot of cost to the off-the-shelf corn oil, I'll give it a whirr for a year. I'll be more than glad to turn my oiler down a bit. So, you suggest this, can you follow with a source of veggie oil tac agent?


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## glens

Enable javascript (I hope it's safe to do so there, but their web designer seems a bit clueless, so who can say?) and look around the "Functional Products" link up in my post (currently) number 45.&nbsp; I'd originally found the internal link to the tackifier page (which mentions veggie oil) via google, and arrived at that "home page" URI from within the site.&nbsp; I guess it would be in the "products" link...

BTW, how do you see my "their necessity has been disproven to you" as somehow being functionally different from your "they have disproven their necessity to me"?&nbsp; hahaha!

Glen


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## glens

Attached is the pertinent page from their products PDF file I'd fetched the other day.

The MSDS links for the biodegradeable veggie-oil tackifiers are V570 and V584.&nbsp; Both of which contain the company address and phone numbers.

Glen


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## Tree Machine

EXCELLENT! This is incredible how all this information can be pulled out of the air and presented for all to see. The magic of the internet.

Cool, I must take some time to look through that stuff. What I'll look for first is the LD50 on the tacifier. That is it's rating of toxicity. It'll reflect how willing you are to breath in a mist of it. It'll give me a ballpark as to how 'hot' it will make my naturally-based bar oil.

Hot? I mean, like, when you're spinning tacified oil off while working a tree over, or near water. I think you know what I mean.... How the water takes on that irridescent, multi-color sheen? Beautiful as it is, we know that it is lubricant spreading across the surface of the water. I would give this a 'hot' rating (toxic potential) of 100, since 100% of it is persistent, petroleum-based hydrocarbon oil. 

Veggie oil would have a 'hot' rating of 0, since it is a 12-16 carbon triglyceride. It is non-toxic, and we can go as far as to say 'food' and 'essential nutrients', but the edible status of the oil is not our topic here. Safflower, corn, soybean, peanut, sunflower, canola all have no toxic 'hotness', but if I were to add 'Tac', then it would (assuming Tac is petroleum-based). The LD-50 , and the amount I would need to add to a gallon of veggie would describe how changed the oil is from an environmental standpoint. How much it costs you is a financial standpoint. Does it allow you to turn your oiler down to appreciably less than with just straight veggie oil?, make bars last longer? Efficiency / maintenence standpoint

These are good points to nail down. Great contributions from everybody!


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## glens

Why would you make all those comments before reading the information?

Once again, you're arguing against nothing.&nbsp; Read and note the subject matter; "Biodegradable Tackifiers".&nbsp; Perhaps the better choice of the two products listed is also listed as a "Food Grade Tackifier".

You make points that are in themselves valid, but they're impertinent to the discussion.

Glen


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## Stumper

Hmmm, Glen did you read your link? " the polymers themselves are not readily biodegradable". That doesn't mean they are horribly toxic. In fact, Jim should note that being derived from petroleum doesn't equate to toxic. However, if un tackified oil proves adequate I have to say "why bother/". Personally, I am not convinced that tacking agents are unnecessary on long bars used in big cuts under heavy loads. I am convinced by my own experience thet they aren't needed on a 12' Power Pruner bar or 16 inch climbing saw bar.


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## glens

Yes, I saw that.&nbsp; Immediately following, it says the products themselves are roughly 90% readily biodegradable.&nbsp; Assuming the bio-oil being used is 100% readily biodegradable, that makes 10% of 3%-10% of the total, tackified, not "readily" biodegradable.&nbsp; That's 0.3%-1% of the total as possibly "bad" (assuming the unmodified oil was 100% okay).&nbsp; If use of the tackifier is good for savings of money and/or slung oil, that sounds like it could be a reasonable compromise.

Glen


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## Tree Machine

What it says is that this tac product listed is comprised of at <i>least</i> 90% vegetable oil.

I realize these are only MDS sheets, but there is no LD-50 on the (maximum) 10% active Tac agent.Also they don't list what the tac agent is, only that it is 'proprietary'. Fair enough.

Just doing rough math, if this tac product is 10% active tac, and you mix it into veggie oil at a ratio of 9 parts veggie oil to one part tac product, that comes out to 1% active tac agent in your running lube.

OK. I don't know if that's high or low, bad, good or great. What I do know is you're paying for is 90% vegetable oil. They say that. In fact, more correctly, what they say is, oh, what the heck. I've circled it for you. You read it and interpret it:


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## Stumper

Shifting focus a bit. At 60 degrees my vegetable oil flows easier than 30wt petroleum bar oil. At 100 degrees also but at below freezing temps the veggie gels. The tackified petroleum oil pours like molasses but it pours. Jim does the corn oil you use refuse to pour on cold winter days?


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## Tree Machine

That is an excellent question Mr Stumper. During my climb this afternoon, it was 14 degrees F (-10 C). I had gassed and oiled my saw right before I went up.

The properties of veggie oil below freezing are rather interesting. It still flows, but it flows in a weird way. It is sort of gellish, but soft, not thick, not a heavy viscosity. Ya almost have to stick a jug in the freezer and give it a whirl.

So, after you've frozen your corn oil, get ready to squeeze some into a cup. It is OK to stow the veggie oil upside-down. What I want you to do, just for entertainment, is take a chopstick, or just use a round file. Squeeze the frozen oil out gradually, and at the same time, insert the thin rod into the mouth of the plastic oil bottle. Wiggle it. Disturb the gellish body with stirring or vibration, and the gellish semisolid just falls. It takes on a more liguid property immediately, no heat needed.

Tomorrow I will test this at a more extreme end, it is supposed to be around 6 degrees, F tomorrow morning (-14 C). This little trick with the file end works really well.


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## Stumper

Interesting. When it has gelled I've just used the nasty oil. I'll hav eto try the stirring.


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## Tree Machine

That is all you need to know about veggie oil at those temperatures. The oil takes on that gellish property, but does not truly become thick. The looks of the oil change dramatically, however, the viscosity changes very little and it still lubricates fine at subfreezing temps. How can I tell that the lube properties are fine at those temperatures?

First off, as soon as you start the saw, all 'temperatures' change, as far as the lube and the saw are concerned. In probably under a minute, your saw is warmed up, the oil is liquid again, hunky dorey.

In answering the question, though, if you take the frozen saw, before it's started up, take the chain and with your hand, move it along the bar, that is the way you can tell. With veggie oil, the chain moves as though it was at any above-freezing temperature, no real change. With dino oil, viscosity is a function of temperature; the colder, the thicker; the chain does not want to move along that bar until it is warmed up.

At subfreezing Winter temps, guys are half-tempted to thin their petroleum based bar oil, and cut it with diesel, or kerosene to thin it out.

GUYS.... stop the insanity. It really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really,really, is this simple. 

One half of one pair of chopsticks will get you through the Winter. Disturbing the 'frozen' oil is not even necessary- I just came onto the idea the other day and it worked.

Can we go back to the tackifiers for the moment. Ben Walker has much experience in this area and has much to teach us. We still don't know what tac is. The MSD sheet lists the ingredient as 'PROPRIETARY'


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## glens

Jim,

I still don't see how you're saying anything different than I am yet I somehow get the impression you're arguing with me about it.

For what it's worth, that company also makes an additive for the vegetable oil to help with its properties at such low temperatures.&nbsp; 
<tt>:</tt>)

Glen


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## Tree Machine

We must be in agreement? Then, cool!

Good information! I mean, great information. Check out these technical data sheets. Guys, i believe this may be <i>the</i> tack additive that bio-oil manufacturers use. They are very informative data sheets. The V570 mentions specifically it's use in saw chain, and saw guide oils. It also gives usage information, and is quite specific. The V584 is considered 'food'grade. the 570 is the one for chain saw oil.

Thanks for searching this info, Glen.


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## NeTree

Tree Machine said:


> The MSD sheet lists the ingredient as 'PROPRIETARY'




Yeah, that always make me wary...

DDT had a few "proprietary" ingredients, too...


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## glens

Ha!&nbsp; But you don't hesitate to use Windows!&nbsp; Hahahahaha!

(couldn't resist)


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## NeTree

glens said:


> Ha!&nbsp; But you don't hesitate to use Windows!&nbsp; Hahahahaha!
> 
> (couldn't resist)



LMAO! Sure I do!

Why do ya think I have the host computer on Linux? 

http://arborist.************/attachment_19413.php


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## Stumper

Jim the Tack additive in most Petroleum oils is polyisobutylene. I have no idea what the prprietary stuff for vegetable oils is.


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## NeTree

Could it be sugar-based somehow?

Thinking of desiring a non-petroleum based substance. Molasses is pretty "tacky"?


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## Tree Machine

*V570 tackifier*

This does not say what the tack additive is, but they're sure helpful in shelling out the infohttp://arborist.************/attachment_19527.php 

I am sooooo glad we found this information. We're getting closer to knowing what we need to know.


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## Timberjackboy

*Jeeze People*

ALL YOU GUYS NEED LIVES!!! WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WERE ON A DATE OR TOOK YOUR WEIFE OUT TO DINNER? But no we are all gonna sit here and talk about tac in oil>!!!!!!!!! Sory hunny but tac is mor eimportant then you


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## Tree Machine

Oh, TJB. We're just havin some fun with it for no other reason than 'We can'. The internet lets us pull highly detailed information out of space. C'mon, admit it, this is a blast.

I'm just trying to figure out how expensive and toxic my canola oil is gonna be if I tacify it.

I want to know if I can get little single-serve, one-gallons-worth little squeezepacks

And I want to know if the stuff REALLY works any better, and can all my environmentally conscious bretheren get tacked up for SOMEWHERE under $18 a gallon, mebbe more like 6 or $7? We're trying to lay to rest whether or not the Tree Machine is really full of bull$hi#.


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## NeTree

TJB... *thin ice*


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## Stumper

Tree Machine said:


> Oh, TJB. We're trying to lay to rest whether or not the Tree Machine is really full of bull$hi#.


 There is doubt?  

I think this thread has been fun except for boy-skater's overreactions.


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## Tree Machine

You guys leave Timberjackboy alone. He's my buddy. I'm trying to get him to see ha can't keep a girl because he stanks like used motor oil. He's trying to save my marriage by pointing out that I'm a loser because I'm not spending quality time with my best girl. He really has a point. That's a guy looking out for a guy, that's male bonding, that's <i>comradery</i>. Thank you TJB.

So I guess the next thing would be to call 'Functional Inc.' and ask some detailed questions,

1) Can the tac be bought as an undiluted concentrate?
2) Can a single aliquot be used to treat a single gallon of oil?
3) How much does it cost?
4) What is the minmum amout you will sell?

Can we come up with a few more pertinant questions? Add to the list!


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## Stumper

Hopefully they will sell small quantities of mix it yourself additive to individuals. If not maybe we can sic Sherrill and Bailey's on them. I wouldn't mind buying enough additive for 20 gallons of bar oil at a time if it didn't cost more than 2-3 dollars per gallon's dose.(Assuming that it can be simply mixed-I don't want to have to heat to precise temps and do weird things to obtain miscability)


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## Tree Machine

True. Ease of use / mixing, and cost will be the real life factors.

I have a vision of puncturing the end of something like a vitamin E gel cap, squeezing it out into your gallon of veggie oil, recapping and inverting a few times for instantly sticky oil. Sticky oil is an oxymoron.


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## woodshop

*a life*

Been reading this thread, just have to put my 2 cents in now, have to agree with TreeMachine... this is awful interesting. OK, my wife has no clue what tac in my bar oil is... not sure she knows exactly what bar oil actually is  But I still do take her out to dinner after 25 years of marraige, and I also enjoy listening to you folks talk about this. I'm actually a tac convert... when working as a logger, we only ever used 30W engine oil, cheapest the crew chief could find on sale that week. Seemed to work fine, but we were in So Maryland, lots of sand in those pine woods, so careful as we tried, we would go through chains and bars fast. Then tried a gal of bar oil one time, and liked the way it seemed to stick to the chain better. Does it sling off less? Is it necessary? ... still not sure, thats why this thread is so interesting. I might even try some veggie oil now that I have heard all this good stuff. 

OH.. wife just walked in the room and I simply asked her point blank what is bar oil?... she said "the oil you put in your chain saw for the bar stupid!" Guess she told me huh


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## Stumper

Wow, and I thought bar oil was whiskey.  Learn something new all the time.


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## Timberjackboy

*Tree machine*

Tree machine is definitly the smartest guy here!!!!! Hes got a good point about used motor oil stinking!!!!! But you see guys it may not stick to your bar as nice but it still is cheaper. I mean you may wear out your bar and chanin quicker, but you can get a 45 gallon drum of used oil for free, think of how much that oil would cost if you bought it all, your really saving quite a lot. But I see tree machines point. Leave him alone.he probaly knows alot more about what hes talking about then alot of you, or porbaly me too.


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## BewtifulTreeMan

Timberjack, perhaps you've got the right idea. Maybe cancer is brought on psychologicaly. Maybe people like you, people who dont give a shiit about their health will out live those of us who actually try and limit the amount of toxic waste we come in contact with. I for one am gonna try some veg oil, i'd prefer to outlive my chainsaw then vice versa. :alien:


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## Timberjackboy

*Grrrrrrr*

Thats !!!!! Ignorant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!im Mad


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## BewtifulTreeMan

ignorwha?


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## Timberjackboy

jeeze your not only ignorant but dumb


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## Crofter

Timberjackboy said:


> jeeze your not only ignorant but dumb




Now ain't that some piece o' work!



I stand corrected! Now isn't that a piece of work?


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## Timberjackboy

Crofter said:


> Now ain't that some piece o' work!


AIN"T ISN'T A WORD!!!!!!!! ITS ISN'T NOT AIN"T!!! Go back to school


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## ray benson

2001 Encarta College Dictionary.
Correct usage - Ain't is one of the most informal verb contractions in English, and its use in formal contexts may be criticized because it is associated with careless speech. It is, however, accepted in folk and popular song lyrics, show titles, direct quotations, and fictional dialogue. Otherwise ain't is best avoided, except as a deliberate rhetorical device and in allusive expressions such as You ain't seen nothing yet.
So it seems as if Frank was grammatically correct.


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## Timberjackboy

ray benson said:


> 2001 Encarta College Dictionary.
> Correct usage - Ain't is one of the most informal verb contractions in English, and its use in formal contexts may be criticized because it is associated with careless speech. It is, however, accepted in folk and popular song lyrics, show titles, direct quotations, and fictional dialogue. Otherwise ain't is best avoided, except as a deliberate rhetorical device and in allusive expressions such as You ain't seen nothing yet.
> So it seems as if Frank was grammatically correct.


YOU have a lot to do


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## ray benson

Got to keep the mind active.


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## NeTree

Timberjackboy said:


> AIN"T ISN'T A WORD!!!!!!!! ITS ISN'T NOT AIN"T!!! Go back to school






Ain't that funny?


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## Stumper

Not particularly-but some of us are easily amused and some of us ain't.


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## glens

Jim (Tree Machine) is out of town for the rest of the year, and I've been a bit busy.&nbsp; I'd intended on contacting that manufacturer and inviting one of their engineers to chime in on this thread, but I'm going to wait until after the weekend.

Glen


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## Timberjackboy

*haha*



netree said:


> Ain't that funny?


small things amuse small minds eh NETREE


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## NeTree

Oh stopit TJ... yer killin' me. Ain't ya gotta sense of humor?

Glen, it'd be very intersting indeed to see what they have to say. I'm sure you'll heep us updated? 

I get suspicious of "secret" stuff. Remember when doctors started telling us how bad sugar was? Well, now we know Nutri-Sweet is a carcinogen, so I guess old-fashioned sugar ain't so bad after all, eh?


----------



## Timberjackboy

*yah*

So you guys like climb trees and cut off dead or damages limbs? Or just prune the tree up pretty like?


----------



## Stumper

Timberjackboy said:


> So you guys like climb trees and cut off dead or damages limbs? Or just prune the tree up pretty like?



Why yes, some of us do those things that you seem to be trying to say.(i.e. climb trees in order to cut off dead and damaged branches and/or prune trees for a pleasant appearance.). Some of us like it very much but there may be some who just do the work without enjoyment.


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## glens

TJB, why are you here?


----------



## Timberjackboy

*well good reason*

Down here if thers problem tree we cut it down, and if its still fairly good cut it up for firewood.


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## Timberjackboy

*?*

so you guys like prune back trees a long roads and stuff?


----------



## Stumper

Glen, Where would you be if you were a boy who didn't know jack about timber?


----------



## rb_in_va

Timberjackboy said:


> so you guys like prune back trees a long roads and stuff?



What are you getting at?


----------



## Timberjackboy

*well sir*

befor i came to this site i didn't even know what arborist was. See dwon here we call our sleves woods workers. We go out and cut down trees, right now gotta stick to soft wood and pople the mills arn't taken hardwood since the market the glutted after nackawick shut down. and The only thing they are taken pople for is to make flake board. I know what a skidder is and how to use one, and the different types.. You see sir you got your cable skidders, your grapple skidders and your clambunk skidders, and your porters we always caleld them porters but i guess they call them forwarders now. Then thers your cutting machines. The feller buncher which works usually in combination with your grapple skidder is your full tree harvesting set up, and for cut to lengh ya use your harvester and your porter(forwarder). Cable skidder are loseing ground fast, Timberjack stopped maken the 240 cause no one could aford to buy a new one anymore unless your a big company but even then you really haven't got the use for one. 
My slef if i wa sgoing to go into logging id look at one of those morgan skidders, they are Canadian made they have a hydrostic transmission suppsoed to be very reliable one fella in the miramichie are replaced his Cat grapple with a morgan and the morgan stood up a lot better i guess, he was using his skidders to yrad inot his chpper. Prentice probaly arn't bad skidders either, they always made great loaders, I hear they are cheaper as well. You guys ever hear tell of a circle clear cut? new cutting method where it promotes the grouth of new hardwood species, usually after you clear cut alot of pople start to grow up, and then your maple. Around here beach is amajor problem. They are all diseased and are dieing. They won't grow very big. The branches all bend over and they get this rough dots all ove rthe bark. worst mess i ever saw to try to thin. The are a hard tree to cut very hard. You guys ever here of shadow tree logging? Its a good method as well to promote the growth of black spruce. and by the way IAM CANADIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## rb_in_va

Timberjackboy said:


> and by the way IAM CANADIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1



Yeah, it's hard to tell.  

No offense to all the other Canadians here, but I couldn't let that one slide!


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## Tree Machine

Hey Guys, I'm still on vacation, but Elizabeth has give me 15 minutes online.

I popped in to see where the thread has gone. Stumper, Thanks for the detail about what it would take to assure miscibility- important point.

Two days ago My Dad said the oiler on his Husky 350 wasn't working. I told him it was probably a plastic $5 pinion gear stripped out. I pulled the clutch, and sure enough, that was the problem. It was a saw sold at Lowe's for $150, reconditioned, as-is. I said, "Dad, ya shoulda bought a couple of em." We went to a saw shop and got him a new gear.

Anyway, while pulling the thing apart, I was reintroduced to sticky, petroleum bar oil. It was Poulan brand bar oil, and it was way sticky. By the time I was done installing the new pinion gear, and cleaning and dressing the bar, I had oil all over my hands (wasn't wearing gloves), the front of my pants, top of my shoes and had little spatters on the concrete below me from cleaning out the guide rails. The little spatters, as they heated up in the Florida sun spread outward from a speck, to a dime-size mark, about a dozen of them staining his driveway.

It came back, so clearly, the reasons why I quit using sticky dino oil.

I called Functional Oil Products to gather the info we need, and they are closed through the end of the year, to reopen Monday. I have a call into them, and will follow up on Monday and get back with y'all. My 15 minutes is up and I've got a woman standing behind me...... uhhh, bye!


----------



## Tree Machine

OK, I got the scoop. I spoke with Bill Wall at Functional Products and he was very helpful. I learned that Tack (at least the V-570 product) is made from a derivative of 'natural rubber'. It is added to vegetable oil (they specify canola oil) at a rate of 2-2.5%. Minimum purchase amount is a 5 gallon bucket, which contains approximately 35 pounds.

They do not package it in aliquots to use for mixing one-gallon portions. The amount needed to treat one gallon would be roughly 3 to 3-1/2 ounces. There are no specific mixing temperatures that need to be adhered to. It can be mixed in-jug, though it would be best to transfer both the canola oil, and the Tack into a dedicated jug, trickling in the tack in as you're pouring in the oil to obtain a complete mixing; makes sense.

The cost for the Tack is $2.08 per pound, which doing some quick math in my head, at one pound treating approximately 4-5 gallons tells me that the guys sellling bio oil for $!8.00 a gallon are just gonna frickin hate me.


----------



## Stumper

Jim, How do we make a purchase? I probably only need a quart per year. Wanna sell me a gallon out of the 5gal bucket?


----------



## caryr




----------



## Tree Machine

Stumper said:


> Jim, How do we make a purchase? Wanna sell me a gallon out of the 5gal bucket?


To be frank and honest, I haven't decided yet, whether or not to buy a bucket. I know that straight canola oil will lubricate a bar and chain just fine, with no ill side effects. To state my position, let me offer an analogy.

Once upon a time I had a coffee maker, and it did a great job of making me coffee. I put the coffee and the water in, and out came coffee. 

Then, Elizabeth said, "Hey, look at <i>this</i> coffee maker!" It had a digital clock, and you could pre-set it the night before to have coffee made upon my rolling out of bed. I asked if it would make a better cup of coffee, given the higher cost of the coffee using the new coffee maker. Nope. Same coffee. 

We bought the coffee maker, and it gave me a cup of coffee that performed its function identically to the coffee of the coffee maker before. But my <i>perceived value</i> of the new coffee was higher. I really enjoy not having to wait for my coffee in the morning. Sometimes I am woken up and drawn out of my morning slumber by the aroma of fresh-brewed coffee. Nice. Even though my coffee now costs more per cup than before, I find it's worth it.

That's what I think this tack thing will boil down to for me. With straight veggie oil, my bar and chain get lubricated just fine. If I put tack into my veggie oil, my bar and chain will get lubricated just fine. I'll be looking for something that will shift my perceived value to justify the increased time and cost of ordering, paying for, and mixing.

In staying open-minded and objective, I'm going to try the Tack V-570 product. How do I do this without buying a 5 gallon pail? I asked the manufacturer for a _sample_. I asked if I could have a couple other samples sent out to fellow tack testers and Bill said that would be OK. The sample is 4 ounces, enough to do about a gallon and a half. 

I'm, as Glen mentioned, on vacation right now. The weather in Indiana is projected to be wet, freezing rain, more wet, cold and wet, with a possibility of snow. The weather in Sarasota, Florida is sunny, warm, warm, sunny, and sunny. Elizabeth and I voted, and it was unanimous to rescedule our flight home. I won't be able to test out the tack for another 10 days (no sympathy needed!).


----------



## Stumper

Enjoy yourselves.


----------



## glens

Tree Machine said:


> In staying open-minded and objective, I'm going to try the Tack V-570 product. How do I do this without buying a 5 gallon pail? I asked the manufacturer for a _sample_. I asked if I could have a couple other samples sent out to fellow tack testers and Bill said that would be OK. The sample is 4 ounces, enough to do about a gallon and a half.
> 
> [As of Jan. 5 we're going to extend our stay in Fla and] I won't be able to test out the tack for another 10 days (no sympathy needed!).


Have you made it back yet?&nbsp; Hahaha!

Is this an example of a thread that has just died for no good reason?&nbsp; It hasn't gotten off to another forum has it?&nbsp; There is another forum-which-cannot-be-mentioned where the topic was brought up recently, and I'm being made to look bad by pointing them here for reference.

What have you done with this, Jim?

Glen


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## Tree Machine

*Tack on track*

Ohhhh, after we got back from the extended vacation, we went on another vacation and I've only been back about 10 days geetin 'er all sorted out again.

Thank you for asking.


I have the V570 sample. I put it in my freezer. I intend to set the camera up on time-lapse, shooting at 5 minute increments with the frozen bottle affixed in an upside-down position, cap open. I want to show how long it takes for the stuff to thaw, and at least half the bottle to flow out and into another container. Then, I'll add the tacifier to a gallon of veggie oil, and freeze it, and a non-tacified gallon together, same sort of time lapse photos. It's very important to know the properties of this stuff in the cold, even if that's a minor part of the year for many, nonetheless is still important.

Lastly, I found a commercial tacifier at the auto parts store (and bought it) that is 100% petroleum base. I will be bringing you more info on that, as it would allow guys to tacify regular motor oil. More on that this evening.

You wanna climb some trees this morning dawg? I'm on a very sweet property. I am only there til 1:00 this afternoon. Nice ascents, looked forward to them all day yesterday, but it was a 6-man ground work day. This morning is the climbing and the finish. Interested?


----------



## glens

Dang, I'm already running late for the plans I've already got...


----------



## woodshop

Tree... I like your scientific approach to stuff like this... looking forward to your findings professor.


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## Tree Machine

Thank you for that fine compliment. You've got a doctorate in millology, that's the rumor around here that I started. Dr Woodslab.


----------



## herald

I've been following this thread, and it has had some really great info! I'm not a professional logger, but I do cut a decent amount of firewood every fall. I've got a mid-size stihl, and I'm very interested in the use of organic oil for bar/chain lubricant, but I'm concerned about the oxidating properties of vegetable oil...how feasabile is it for me to use vegetable oil when I only use my saw regularly about 3-4 months out of the year? Thanks in advance, you all are extremely knowledgeable folks!


----------



## Elmore

herald said:


> I've been following this thread, and it has had some really great info! I'm not a professional logger, but I do cut a decent amount of firewood every fall. I've got a mid-size stihl, and I'm very interested in the use of organic oil for bar/chain lubricant, but I'm concerned about the oxidating properties of vegetable oil...how feasabile is it for me to use vegetable oil when I only use my saw regularly about 3-4 months out of the year? Thanks in advance, you all are extremely knowledgeable folks!


I think that it is suggested that at the end of the season, before you store your saw, that you run a little petroleum based bar oil through your tank and saw.


----------



## Tree Machine

*Let the tests begin*

OK, I set up my camera to do time lapse, one shot per minute. I took the bottle of V-570 tacifier out of the freezer, taped it upside down, unscrewed the cap and put a glass under it.

I pressed the camera button, it took a sample shot. I waited one minute. The camera fired again, cool. It was about three in the morning, I went to bed.

This morning I got up and the frozen tac had melted and emptied into the glass below. I went to view the photos.

Dang Nabbit ! I had the resolution set to super-high 5 megapixel, so it filled the media card in 21 shots, or 21 minutes. The Tac hadn't even begun to really flow, and I have to repeat the process.

SO, I have to pour the Tac back into the bottle. I thought, you guys are going to want to see this, so I set up the video camera and shot 20 seconds. The file shouldn't be too big for the dial-up guys.


This Tack is weird stuff. Here it is, flowing at <i>room temperature</i>. Note the super-heavy viscosity.

Also, sorry about having the camera sideways during the 21 minute time-lapse. This is the first time lapse I've ever done, so I'm allowed once to screw up. If I can get the Tacifier back in the bottle and re-frozen, I'll set up for a 60 minute time-lapse tonight and we'll see what it looks like.


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## Tree Machine

this time lapse was done over one hour. Tack material began at room temperature.

No that it's back in the jar, I'll freeze it again, and do another time lapse on the time it takes to melt and empty from the jar into a glass. This is just to satisfy my own curiosity, and then we'lll get into the testing of the stuff.


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## woodshop

Hey Tree... curious what brand and model digital camera do you have that will do that time lapse. Thanks for the video so far... come to any conclusions yet? Should we all go out and buy a pail of this stuff? What about a controlled "sling" test? Set oil to max output, then put dark tissue paper or something that would show oil, at end of bar and rev WOT for 2 seconds... given same temperature etc how much oil slings off with plain motor oil vs reg bar oil vs etc etc... but that would be time consuming, and how would you clean out previous oil in tank other than running tankfuls through saw. To do it right, you would really have to clean bar AND chain between types... lot of hassle.


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## Tree Machine

Keep the questions coming ! Step up and ask more questions. Critique this stuff. Fully understand it's properties, qualities and at the end of the day, how you <i>feel</i> about the product. These critical views are necessary. If you use it, <i>you live with it.</i>

So, YEA, let's dissect the product. Let's boil it down to the least common denominator, break the sucker apart and milk the last molecule of information out of it.

So, this is a research project. :Eye: I've stumbled onto being the project director and you(everybody) are the research assistants. 

Well, OK.

Your first assignment, then, is to come up with as many questions as you can, and let's Rock n' Roll !


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## Tree Machine

This is going to involve some chemistry, y'know? To truly and fully understand this stuff we're trying to understand, we must go to the molecular level to the atoms and molecules, both the veggie oil AND the Tack.

It's the proportional mixing of these molecules that we get as the end product. The chemistry shouldn't intimidate anyone. It's more than just mixing two things together and trying it, though we'll be of course doing that.


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## Tree Machine

*Hmmmmm*

So, we get started immediately? Cold-weather trials are a must, and we can start that today, the Winter/Spring transition. Nice time of the year to do outdoor research!

Start posting your questions and we'll approach this in the scientific method and move it on. If we get <i>really</i> ambitious, we could have a fine body of knowledge on it in three months.

_My first question to you;_ On June 1, what do we do with the understanding? Where do we go with it? Does this project just dissipate into cyberspace?

To fully embrace this project, we need to get aliquots (individual portions, servings) out to all of you.

What this looks like to me is everyone getting three packets of Tack. The manufacturer recommends 4 ounces (114 g) per Gallon (4.1L)

I have an idea, let's mix standards on the same formula to really give your mind a twist 

One ounce per liter

See how approaching this scientifically requires us to establish standards, a baseline? We need something to measure it's efficacy. To be truly objective, the information should be measurable to a high degree. The manufacturer would be asked to provide miscibility and viscosity data. The data needs to be collected and compiled, and in three months there's a statistical analysis to confirm or deny it's ...........

I can go on. I can describe in detail why researchers get paid to do research. I just want to present what's being created here is both amazing and inspiring. I don't know what to say... :blush:


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## woodshop

...tree looks like you definitely had your coffee this morning  

...so send me an ounce of this stuff, I'll mix it in a liter of veggie oil and I'll attempt to contribute to your scientific study. Again... think if you want to really do it right, you will need to empty the oil from your saw, and run at least a tankful or two of just plain veggie oil through to clean out regular bar oil first of you will have a mix of who knows what. Not sure it will even clean it out, will it? Do bar oil and veggie oil mix together like say alcohol and water do? Where are the chemistry guys?


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## Tree Machine

The miscibility of the tack is quite unique. As are all the properties. In the amount I've worked with it so far, I have come away with so much understanding of how the stuff will affect my life.

The chemistry knowledge is at a reach, though we could all benefit from one person who has capabilities of molecular configution on the computer. This is called molecular modeling and it's done by chemists. It's not really chemistry, but it is, but it's closer to graphic arts. It's where those two disciplines marry. Molecular modeling gives us a visual on what these molecules look like in a spacial 3-D perspective.

That's pretty heavy stuff, but wouldn't it be fun?

I really have to go cllmb a few trees today. Can you keep posting questions ? We'll continue this research after the work day.

Woodshop, I'll share what camera I'm using, and details, later tonight.

Questions about Tack? POST EM ! Keep em coming!


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## glens

Jim, I'm a little confused.&nbsp; We all know the additive has a very high viscosity by itself; that's in part how it does its thing.&nbsp; In my opinion what you should be doing is to see how detrimental it is to flowability of the veggie oil when mixed in suitable proportion and at extreme temperatures.

I might also suggest that you put a delay between images in your time-elapsed movies...

Glen


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## Tree Machine

glens said:


> In my opinion what you should be doing is to see how detrimental it is to flowability of the veggie oil when mixed in suitable proportionGlen


Do ya think?

I had never considered that. You are absolutely brilliant.


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## glens

I didn't intend to insult your intelligence, Jim, but testing its ability to pour seems a little inconsequential.


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## Old Monkey

Tree Machine said:


> I may not know you, but I care about you.





I love you too man!!  

I have a 15 month old daughter who means the world to me. Your argument is certainly something to ponder.


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## Tree Machine

I am having to pour it. That makes it consequential. If YOU had to pour it, it's pourability properties are something you not only personally have to work with, but with your own hands. 

I would ask you to explain lobbing an uninformed judgement at this effort. 

It's pourability and miscibility have alot to do with it. These are the 'properties' of the compound we call Tack. There are other properties we should also explore, properties that will affect the user directly. It may affect his family, employees, his property and the property of others.

Why is this physical property inconsequential? If we are to put a sample of tack into the hands of everyone who wants to try it, they will want to know every inconsequential property, quality, every behavior, all toxic disclosures and safety data. Glen, when you're dealing with the public and putting weird substances in their hands and homes, you have to have your lawyer draw up this document called <i>informed consent.</i>.


----------



## Tree Machine

Mono viejo, what's your little 15 month-old girl's name?


----------



## glens

If I were to obtain a quantity of the material to modify veggie oil for use as a bar/chain lube, you bet the way it pours would be a factor for me.&nbsp; But I dang sure wouldn't stick it in the freezer, or even the fridge, first.&nbsp; It just stands to reason that if I want it to mix as quickly and easily as it can, that I'll perform the act with both the materials at as warm a temperature as I can reasonably get them.

Glen


----------



## Tree Machine

And practically speaking, what if you were trying to mix the stuff in the woods on a cold day? We are trying to assesss the practical application of this stuff. That means considering it's use from a real-life perspective.

Warm-weather mixing, trust me, will be covered. The fact that it's late Winter right now encourages me to test the stuff in the weather of the moment, and assimilate knowledge of it's characteristics. If we don't do this, the inevitable question will come up "how does this stuff behave in cold weather?" Without the empirical data, the only answer we could offer is heresay, or a blatant guess. 

Don't direct us toward bad research. We're honestly trying to give this stuff an objective trial. How do you see yourself contributing to the effort, Glen? You wanna do the solubility tests?


----------



## glens

Hey, I'm the one who pointed you in the direction of the stuff in the first place, remember?

I don't mix my fuel in the woods; I can't imagine ever mixing my chain lube there either.

Glen


----------



## Tree Machine

glens said:


> Hey, I'm the one who pointed you in the direction of the stuff in the first place, remember?
> Glen


My life has been enriched.



glens said:


> I don't mix my fuel in the woods; I can't imagine ever mixing my chain lube there either.
> Glen


You're not 'everybody'.


----------



## Tree Machine

Do you want to do the solubility tests?

There's an informed consent, where I inform you about the stuff, and you consent to receive it and follow a certain protocol testing it. Are you interested in doing just the solubility portion of it? I don't want to ask unreasonably of you.

If yes, we'll continue with the information part, as we have been. Then we will spell out a simple protocol, an number of specific ways in which to test it. this gives us a baseline, and anyone trying the same thing, should be getting the same result. fair enough?

Are you interested in performing the solubility tests, Glen?


----------



## glens

I'm sorry Jim.&nbsp; If I wanted to use veggie oil I'm sure I'd get some of the tackifier from those folks and mix it up.&nbsp; I don't envision anything magical going on with the mixture process or any detrimental effects from using it.

Glen


----------



## Tree Machine

Oh?


----------



## Tree Machine

Unless I missed something, you don't even <i>have</i> a sample of the Tack, yet you're claiming


> I don't envision any detrimental effects from using it.


For the sake of this project, I'm going to point out that you can not possibly state with correctness or any accuracy that there are no detrimental effects from using it, just because you envision it.

I suppose that mebbe you really ARE clairvoyant, and I'm not doubting you. I would just like to know if your 'envisionment' has any hands-on experience with the Tack? 

Would you like to do the solubility tests? It's a good way to verify what you state here as 'belief'. If you believe there are no "detrimental effects from using it", then step up and agree to follow a simple, scientific protocol. I commit to sending you a free sample of Tack.


----------



## Stumper

Errr....Jim, I think that you should test to your heart's content . Report freely of your findings for those of us who are curious. In Glen's defense-- why should anyone envision a problem with the tackifier? It is designed to help vegetable based lubricants stay in place(reduce sling off) on rotating systems. Petroleum based bar and chain lubricants utilize a tackifier for the same purpose. It seems very reasonable to expect this stuff to work just fine. I can't say I really care about low temperature flow rates of the additive itself. I don't really care too much about solubility either. The important issues in my opinion are, Miscability, Pumpability of the mixed lubricants and quantity of lubricant retained on bar rails and drivelinks at the end of the chain cycle. Obviously, if the tackifier made the vegetable oil lose lubricity that would be a problem but I think that is pretty far fetched since it is made to enhance lubricant performance in industrial applications. :angel:


----------



## Tree Machine

> Based upon the record of your interaction in this thread, I'm guessing you're going to conclude that the tackifier is not worth the cost/trouble/effort.



I'm trying to be objective. I could state that I hate tack, but informationally, how valuable is that to the rest of us? I'm attempting to let the Tackifier do it's own talking.

By the way, we're not arguing. Maybe negotiating, possibly haggling. You're saying your opinion is good enough for this product to be all right, I question your opinion, wonder if it's based on anything solid; I'm just asking questions.

I don't see a willingness from you to involve yourself in the testing of the product. We've just spent about the last 6 pages discussing Tack. We can ask some basic questions about the stuff, perform some tests, and analyze the results. It doesn't have to be complex. I fact, it's nearly effortless to ask, "Hey Tree Machine, explain these tests. What questions are we asking?


Glen said:


> You seem to be approaching this with an agenda.


 Yea, I want to sell tack and make money off everyone.

Is there anything wrong with wanting good information? That's all I'm bringing to the front. Agenda schlomenda. It's called being informed about the product you're about to use. I think it's fair game to ask.


----------



## Tree Machine

First, you need to start with not 'expecting' an outcome. Good science is done in an unbiassed, objective manner, with no pre-conceived notions, nor expectations. That's the methodology, Glen. No pre-judging the product based on your mood of the moment.

I <b>do</b> have a rough outline of the research protocol, if that's what you were asking. Would you like to participate? It's simply a field-trial, is all. We're not funded to do a full-scale analysis. It's just basic testing in a real life setting. Outdoor lab.

So far, the entire research staff is volunteer, as are the subjects in the study. Are there any questions so far?


----------



## Tree Machine

These are the questions we wish to answer. These and more.


----------



## Tree Machine

*Getting back on track*

Hmmm, I'm not sure where to go with this. Personally, I'd like to continue on with the discussion about biodegradable bar oil as per the title of the thread. I'm in agreement that the tackifier is a sub-subject, but it seems to have taken front stage. I'll accept responsibility for that.

Glen mentioned that I seem to have an agenda against tack. In general, no. Actually I'm mildly fascinated by the stuff, but it is true I see absolutely no benefit of using it in <i>the one specific system</i> of which we're talking, and that is of a chainsaw bar and chain and sprockets.

The only reason I can say this and take a firm stance is because of direct experience in daily commercial use of almost 4 years using only supermarket shelf vegetable oils. If it didn't perform flawlessly I think I would have learned this within a relatively short time.

I am inviting all saw users to run gallon of veggie oil through their saws. If this would damage the chain, bar, drive sprocket, bar tip, or oiling mechanism, or if it would diminish the cutting performance in any way then I have painted myself as an idiot. With that risk spoken up front, I am inviting all saw users to run gallon of straight veggie oil through their saws.

The real issue I'M FEELING here is really not about tackifiers or any form of lubricant. I think it's about convention and <i>beliefs</i>. We see this all over. Resistance to change and having to own up that what we had previously held as truth is really not. Things are not always as they outwardly appear and just because certain truths are passed down to us from previous generations of arborists does not mean we have to stay married to them. Any thoughts on this?


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## Tree Machine

*Well, I call this PROGRESS. Awesome effort by everybody!*

Let's move on, then, because Glen is right, I DO have an agenda, to keep my veggie-based oil clean and uncontaminated.

Let's end here and move on to a sister thread, called <a href=http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=20909>Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil? </a> 

Rusty starts with the $64,000 question.



-end-


----------



## ozy365

I made the switch to vegatable oil this season with good results. I spent the day ripping boards with an Alaskan Mill on my MS290 with good results. The only problem I had was the saw smelled like french fries.


----------



## tricky coyote

*Free, re-used vegetable oil for bar oil*

As you may know, you can power any diesel engine on vegetable oil. Google "straight vegetable oil" or see a site like www.greasecar.com. 

We power our diesels on re-used vegetable oil that we collect for free from the back of restaurants and then let settle and/or run through a filter.

I imagine that this oil could also be used as bar oil. 

Japanese restaurants are best. Avoid places that cook lots of meat as lard is not generally liquid at operating temp, and it stinks.


----------



## NYCHA FORESTER

*There ya go*



> The real issue I'M FEELING here is really not about tackifiers or any form of lubricant. I think it's about convention and beliefs. We see this all over. Resistance to change and having to own up that what we had previously held as truth is really not. Things are not always as they outwardly appear and just because certain truths are passed down to us from previous generations of arborists does not mean we have to stay married to them. Any thoughts on this?



Read it, learn it, live it! 

You have two choices... be the "cutting edge" or be "bleeding on the edge"


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## stihlIT

I use 1 tank of oil per 3 tanks of gas hardly see the use of bio. oil


----------



## vernalis

*Wast veg bar oil*

I've been running waste fryer oil in a dirty application saw without major issue given the lack of tack. I would like to use it in primary saws 'cause I just hate to leave the stains lying about the landscape especially in wetted areas where I do watercourse alteration such as bridges and bench cuts. And the New Brunswick fell'er talking about skidders, porters (and of interest "circle" and 'shadow' cuts - I wonder if the circle cut is synonymous with patch cutting?) would probably attest to the lack of availability of the veg oil stuff even if anyone could afford to try it. Most regular workers in my neck of the woods continue to use dirty stuff. I'd be pleased to be able to offer a cost competitive alternative to waste motor oil for the bar and chain.

So I've been batting about the question of how to add tack to the WVO and am happy to have found this thread. I'll check out the sister thread. But I would love to find some household OTS kind of thing locally for the tack.. Some suggestions were Algin from seeweed (actually an emulsivier), corn starch..., pectin... tried that; no misc., horse hooves, glue... but so far just batting it about. Learning that there's tack made for plant oils is cool. But I bet the same stuff that goes into dino bar oil would do the trick. Any thoughts as to the availability of other tack products that might work??


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## 2dogs

Awesome necropost!

Check dates and always perform a search before you post. Oh, and welcome aboard.


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## vernalis

*Necro sling*

yup thanks watchdog. Yup, had done that. 

your not dead, I'm just dreaming. What?!


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## Tree Machine

StilhIT said:


> I use 1 tank of oil per 3 tanks of gas hardly see the use of bio.



That would be an instance where regular bar oil is better; you're casting very little off, relative to the amount of cutting you're doing. I think it's smart to turn the oiler volume down. Most of us don't (if I can generalize) and we just run it at factory specs, which is one tank of gas used=one tank of oil used. Good job on you to not accept that this ratio is necessarily true.


I run my oiler volume at factory spec, knowing that this offers up too much oil for what is needed. However, as the experimental guneau pig, I change nothing in use except vegetable oil instead of regular bar oil. In fact, I go as far as to only clean my saw every 6 months, except for the sidecase/sprocket area and bar groove and air filter. Everything else is allowed to collect and do whatever it does. Every 6 months I pull out the compressed air if I'm feeling really exploratory I'll pop the clutch off and pull the oiler mech out, just to have a look. To be sensible, give your saw a good cleaning every two months. The saws run fine, Summer and Winter.



2dogs said:


> Awesome necropost!


For those who don't understand this, Vernalis dug up this thread from almost three years ago.

And somewhere in this earlier thread I claimed to have used straight off-the-shelf veggie for about 4 years. The math goes like this .... 7 years.

7 years of using veggie, day after day as a commercial arborist. You would think by this time if something were inherently wrong with vegetable oil I would know it for absolutely certain. Actually, you would know it within the first few tanks, and certainly within the first few months...... but 7 years???

In that time I have sprayed hundreds of Gallons of oil into the environment, not out of deliberateness, but that's just what saws do. If I had chosen to stay with petroleum based bar oil I would have used just as much, but the difference is that the petro bar oil may still be out there in the environment in some form. Certainly it would be all over my tool area, on the hands and clothes of myself and co-workers and smelly petroleum bar oil would make it's way into my home.

Vegetable oil, straight off the grocers shelf, no tack, preferably canola but corn or vegetable (soy) are the same in almost all practical ways, easily and econoically solves a _number_ of annoyances.


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## Tree Machine

But most important of all, the *lubricity* of grocery store food-oil is excellent. There's no question of that.


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## 2dogs

Tree Machine said:


> But most important of all, the *lubricity* of grocery store food-oil is excellent. There's no question of that.



I agree! Lately I have been adding straight canola oil from Costco to my stock of Stihl Bio Plus.


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## Randy88

Got a quite a charge out of the material here but I have a few questions myself, since I've only run chainsaws most of my 41 years of life I want to make sure I got it right, petroleum oil is bad for me and the enviroment, I can accept that, veggie oil straight is good, suitable to eat but put it into the saw instead but when you add Tac thats a rubber product veggie oil is no longer fit for human consumption right? Running petroleum oil is bad because we might inhale the mist and fumes spun off the bar if I understood that logic????? And by the use of veggie oil over the last 7 years you've saved the polution of the enviroment by a major or minor margin if I understand correctly???? So armed with that logic maybe someone could answer these questions for me then since apparently I don't get it in the big sceme of things. If tac is so good then why isn't vegatable oil fit for human consumption after it add to veggie oil? Next will inhaling petroleum oil mist and fumes really kill me faster than the engine on the saw that HAS PETROLEUM oil mixed in it and burning petroleum based gasoline into the atmosphere under my nose already???? With the amount of petroleum oil you saved by running veggie oil for oiling the bar how much petroleum oil and gas did you kill the enviroment with by running the saw in the first place being burned in the engine???? How about the gas in the vehicles you used to get to the timber in the first place or haul the wood out with, isn't it like trying to bail the water out of swimming pool with a teaspoon while its raining an inch an hour [ somewhat defeating ]. I've run saws and equipment of all types all my life and have never seen the logic in saving by the ounce while spending by the ton. If you want to save the enviroment maybe put away the chainsaws, pickups, skidders, logging trucks etc, shut off the heat and electricity to your house grab an axe and live like they did 300 years ago and actually practice saving the enviroment. As for me I think I'll use all the conforts of the current age and probably keep using whatever oil is handy for the oiler of my saw because I don't see it destroying the enviroment any more than pumping it out of the ground in the first place, thats where crude comes from isn't it??? or did someone sneak it onto this planet without us knowing it. The only other amusement I have is to listen to the enviromentalists complain about me destroying the enviroment and when they are all done watch them go home in thier new hummers burning gas and live cozy in their heated and airconditioned new houses made mostly of wood and as they say life goes on. So go ahead tear me apart for my illogic


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## Tree Machine

Actually, you're 100% right on all parts, I gotta argue with you on just about everything. Most of your points, though, have nothing to do with a thin film of high-lubricity liquid continually injected into a guide bar rail of a chainsaw bar.



And thanks for finding the material interesting and keep asking, I am full and willing to share my findings openly, so is randy and Coyote and Dunlap and I hope, anybody else who is using veggie, just ask because I've got tree work to do and I don't want to just stand up on my :angrysoapbox:

I am not an enviro-nazi. I began using vegetable oil to keep the petroleum stink off me, and the environmental/health feelings came along, I guess, as some sort of latent benefit.


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## Tree Machine

Tree care, tree pruning, harvesting trees, removals; all are different worlds, and your PERSONAL WORK SITUATION should dictate whether or not you entertain this idea of putting canola oil in your bar oil tank. I can honestly, honestly only speak for myself, so I'll share briefly the type of business I run, and why veggie is, and has been, a good idea.


Residential Arborist, climber/owner, we do all the tree work+cleanup. Efficiency and economics dictate I have firewood takers come in and remove firewood, then we chip the brush. This keeps chip volume down, but it does mean cutting a LOT of firewood, perpetually, over time.

Jobs are a home at a time, climbing, pruning and takedowns. Make firewood, chip-up the brush. My saws get an inordinate amount of action, consistently over time. We collect the sawdust on tarps and it gets dumped in with the chips.

In dumping chips, I'm fortunate enough to have three chip sites nearby.
My oldest chipsite is 11 years old and we're thinking of mining out the soil and sifting it for vertical mulch work in our highly compacted residential soils. I said '_thinking about it_', I'm not actually doing it, but the point is I am approaching a whole heck of a lot of soil in the near future.

Regardless of WHERE you put your chips, the oil flung off your bar is in there, in the sawdust and in the chips and on the firewood..... where else could that tank of oil be?

Now, once again, I can only speak for myself, and the amount of oil I buy, and spray off into the environment. Last year I used 56 gallons, one tree service. That is about 150 of these 48oz jugs, they come 9 to a case. Now, I think 56 gallons of oil put out into the environment is rather significant. For me, personally that is an affront to the environment I'm trying to care for and I'm open to different ways.

I do not want to pass judgement on to others, just offering information and experience and the insights of us all, collectively.

These are very encouraging discussions. 
I'll bet we've got maybe 50 people who've read this thread now!


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## Randy88

I'm impressed you agree with me but will argue with me on every point, this should be good. Your not really my exwife are you???


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## vernalis

*Eco-sensitive NS*

Sure Enough, there were 3 litres of stihl bio plus waiting for me near Halifax, NS. It only cost $20 for it!http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/dizzy.gif

I think what I'll be doing is blending summer grade petro oil with my cold filtered WVO in some ratio (to get some tack out of it). What kind of bar oil is sold in places where it's real hot? Don't chainsaws get used EVERYWHERE?http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/greenchainsaw.gif


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## WoodChuck'r

What about mixing canola with BioPlus 50/50??


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## bullbuck

:agree2:


Randy88 said:


> Got a quite a charge out of the material here but I have a few questions myself, since I've only run chainsaws most of my 41 years of life I want to make sure I got it right, petroleum oil is bad for me and the enviroment, I can accept that, veggie oil straight is good, suitable to eat but put it into the saw instead but when you add Tac thats a rubber product veggie oil is no longer fit for human consumption right? Running petroleum oil is bad because we might inhale the mist and fumes spun off the bar if I understood that logic????? And by the use of veggie oil over the last 7 years you've saved the polution of the enviroment by a major or minor margin if I understand correctly???? So armed with that logic maybe someone could answer these questions for me then since apparently I don't get it in the big sceme of things. If tac is so good then why isn't vegatable oil fit for human consumption after it add to veggie oil? Next will inhaling petroleum oil mist and fumes really kill me faster than the engine on the saw that HAS PETROLEUM oil mixed in it and burning petroleum based gasoline into the atmosphere under my nose already???? With the amount of petroleum oil you saved by running veggie oil for oiling the bar how much petroleum oil and gas did you kill the enviroment with by running the saw in the first place being burned in the engine???? How about the gas in the vehicles you used to get to the timber in the first place or haul the wood out with, isn't it like trying to bail the water out of swimming pool with a teaspoon while its raining an inch an hour [ somewhat defeating ]. I've run saws and equipment of all types all my life and have never seen the logic in saving by the ounce while spending by the ton. If you want to save the enviroment maybe put away the chainsaws, pickups, skidders, logging trucks etc, shut off the heat and electricity to your house grab an axe and live like they did 300 years ago and actually practice saving the enviroment. As for me I think I'll use all the conforts of the current age and probably keep using whatever oil is handy for the oiler of my saw because I don't see it destroying the enviroment any more than pumping it out of the ground in the first place, thats where crude comes from isn't it??? or did someone sneak it onto this planet without us knowing it. The only other amusement I have is to listen to the enviromentalists complain about me destroying the enviroment and when they are all done watch them go home in thier new hummers burning gas and live cozy in their heated and airconditioned new houses made mostly of wood and as they say life goes on. So go ahead tear me apart for my illogic


:agree2:


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## 2dogs

WoodChucker81 said:


> What about mixing canola with BioPlus 50/50??



We run Stihl BioPlus only in our saws (as I stated here months ago). I cut mine to about 2/3 BioPlus as the container allows. I don't run it less because I think straight canola sticks to the bar and cain as well. Right now we are working in a river and will be for about 6 weeks. In that time we will consume 15-20 gallons of BioPlus. Otherwise we would just be dumping regular petro oil into the river.


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## Greenstar

I have A BIG PROBLEM. I have been using VEGETABLE OIL in all my saws this year, and NOW THAT THE WEATHER IS GETTING COLD, THE OILERS ARE ALL CLOGGED.
This has never been a problem for me in 14 years in the industry, BUT since I started using vegetable oil this year, (it works great when warm out, and I swear by it now), but ALL MY SAWS ARE CLOGGED NOW being it colder weather! Now my saws won't oil and I'm ruining my bars.
I'm in New England, so its not that cold yet either. Its barely dropped below freezing, maybe a few nights so far, but barely!

However, this is a real situation. Both my Stihls 026 Pro and 046 Magnum, as well as both my Husky 338's all are having trouble oiling. This seems to be a big problem? I poured a little bit of gasoline in the tanks to try to thin it out and clear it out, but its only helped a bit. Barely.

PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS SOME ADVICE AS TO WHAT TO DO!
I don't want to have to take these all apart, as I have never had the oiler mechanisms apart and I have heard they are very hard to get to in some models. I am a very good mechanic and do everything else on my saws, although have just never had the oilers apart ever. Thanks

Thank you.

Greenstar-Boston


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## jburlingham

and that is why I will continue to use good old fashioned bar oil,instead of bio or cooking oil, etc.


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## 2dogs

Greenstar said:


> I have A BIG PROBLEM. I have been using VEGETABLE OIL in all my saws this year, and NOW THAT THE WEATHER IS GETTING COLD, THE OILERS ARE ALL CLOGGED.
> This has never been a problem for me in 14 years in the industry, BUT since I started using vegetable oil this year, (it works great when warm out, and I swear by it now), but ALL MY SAWS ARE CLOGGED NOW being it colder weather! Now my saws won't oil and I'm ruining my bars.
> I'm in New England, so its not that cold yet either. Its barely dropped below freezing, maybe a few nights so far, but barely!
> 
> However, this is a real situation. Both my Stihls 026 Pro and 046 Magnum, as well as both my Husky 338's all are having trouble oiling. This seems to be a big problem? I poured a little bit of gasoline in the tanks to try to thin it out and clear it out, but its only helped a bit. Barely.
> 
> PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS SOME ADVICE AS TO WHAT TO DO!
> I don't want to have to take these all apart, as I have never had the oiler mechanisms apart and I have heard they are very hard to get to in some models. I am a very good mechanic and do everything else on my saws, although have just never had the oilers apart ever. Thanks
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Greenstar-Boston



If veg oil doesn't work in the winter then stop using it.


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## Tree Machine

I think going back to regular bar will not solve the problem. You first have to figure out the true cause of the problem.



Greenstar said:


> PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS SOME ADVICE AS TO WHAT TO DO!
> Thank you.


Talk to a saw shop technician. Ask him, "of the last 100 failures in oiler mechanism components (oil pump, pinion gear or tubing), how many were using vegetable oil?"

And then consider in the history of chainsaw use, like in the last 80 years, of all the oiler problems ever encountered over time, how many were using vegetable oil? Probably none.

Then ask at what time of year most oiler problems occur, it'll be Winter because regular bar oil gets more viscous the colder it gets, vegetable oil does not thicken as long as it is in liquid phase.

The answers should clearly tell you that oiler component problems do happen, and not because vegetable oil was used because up until very recently ONLY bar oil was used and even now only a tiny fraction of saw users are using veggie. Oiler problems have always, and will continue to happen. I don't think veggie oil will be a cure for that.

And Greenstar, of that pool of veggie users a very tiny few, over time, have stepped up with a true problem. 

Where and why you're having a problem with all your saws, all at once, I can't say. I have to assume you clean out the bar guide rails, make sure the oiler hole going onto the bar is not obstructed and that the thin metal plate that the bar seats onto is also free of obstruction. This goes for all saws, regardless of veggie or petro oil. Sawdust gets into these areas, it is just what happens in chainsaws. Without regular inspection and cleaning oil flow will be blocked. When this happens the pump can be pumping fine, but oil is not being pumped to where it needs to go. Resistance builds up, components work harder and the weak link, which is often that 5 dollar plastic pinion gear that turns the oiler pump will strip out. It's an easy, in-field fix if you have the new part in hand. I know this because every homeowner saw user who knows me will ask if I can look at their saw and see why the oiler is not working. I've pulled dozens of these apart. Usually it's something clogged with sawdust. They've ALL been using regular bar oil.

Once the bar and chain are off, fire that mother up. Oil should be pumping out the side case. If not, inside of 3 minutes you should be able to pull the clutch, spindle bearing and sideplate to have a look deeper inside. At that point the plastic pinion gear can be pulled and inspected. Use compressed air and a tiny carburator screwdriver to pick around and clean the recesses (this should be done every few months, regardless of veggie or regular bar oil). 

Lastly, consider this: Do you, when opening your gas and oil caps, crack open the cap, blow/brush the sawdust away from the cap rim, then open the cap fully? Do your groundguys take this step? If not, sawdust will fall into the tanks and as far as oil tanks, I don't really know if saws have a filter for bar oil. If they do, sawdust will cake the filter. If not, sawdust will get sucked into the oiler mechanism and transfer tubing.

These problems, as you can see, are not necessarily related to veggie oil or bar oil, but rather sawdust getting into places we rather it not be. With care and attention and some regular cleaning one can minimize this to some degree, but a saw makes sawdust. I don't know what else can be said about that.

I don't think veggie is the problem. This will be my 9th Winter using veggie oil, the only thing I do differently is use only canola in the deep of winter, rather than corn, soybean or blends like the rest of the year. Canola stays liquid to the upper teens/low 20's


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## Greenstar

Tree Machine, thank you very much for the posting. I do believe in the concept and practice of using biodegradable plant based oils. I loved it for months. You can spill it on your pants or boots and it washes out! If it spills on a customer's driveway, its like, "oops" no worries!!
But it is for sure the cause of why all four of my daily saws have quite oiling.
Maybe I used the wrong brand, idk,...
And I hate saying all of this stuff because I dont want to give it a bad name. I actually try to promote its use just as you do to anybody who ever works with me and my crew. I love the stuff, and I am also an environmentalist!
I also will undoubtedly continue to use either it, veggie, or canola, or something of that nature once I figure out efficiently pulling the oiler mechanisms off, cleaning them, and putting them all back together properly, and can do it easily. 
(PS. I have been told the whole engine must be pulled, however, in order to pull them and clean them on my two Husky 338's though!! Which sucks!)
I have owned these saws for over 10-12 years, and NEVER ever have had a problem with oilers in any of them, Stihl or Husky (except for of course the very first year 335 that I bought when they came out with them and I had one and Husky recalled them due to an oiler problem and gave everyone a new saw the next year! That was nice of them!!
No, I have never had a problem, and yes, I am always conscientious of keeping dirt cleaned away from openings when I open the saw up in any way, and yes I always clean the bar grooves and hole out, and sharpen my chains razor sharp everyday.
I am also quite a good mechanic. My Stihl 036 in half right now awaiting a new piston, and I have replaced almost everything on the chipper including the engine!! 

Whatever oil I used has hardened up and become stiff and fairly well caked on all around the sprocket and u under the cover, and around the bar. The stuff is not easy to just scrape off. It has also not been very cold or anything. Maybe a handful of 30's nights or whatever, but nothing very cold yet, but getting there!!
This oil is definitely the cause of ths caking up though, so this weekend I will open the Stihl's up, which I have heard is easy. But I am not looking forward to pulling the coil, clutches, and engines, just to clean both oilers on my 338's

PULL THE WHOLE ENGINE OUT OF THE SAW JUST TO CLEAN THE OILER!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!? Husky 338's!

Peace man, thanks!


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## Tree Machine

Hey Greenstar, I can sense your frustration. I commend you for keeping your saws so well-maintained that you've gotten 10 or 12 years out of them. I would say that's a pretty dang good run.

I didn't think you neglected your saws, proof is that you take excellent care of them. Now, I neglect my saws. I do nothing more than clean the bar, groove, and oiler holes. I know what the oiler mechanism looks like because of working on friends and neighbors' saws, but have never seen the inside of mine. I don't have convenient compressed air so I scrape around lightly with a scrench, brass brush each side of the bar down at the saw end and that's it. I've never taken additional steps, more or less to be a guinea pig for the overall pool of veggie users; if something were to go wrong, it should be with someone who does just the bare minimum and nothing else (me).

I ran a MS200T with a temp crew for three months (they did, anyway) and then shelved it for one year. Veggie while they used it, whatever veggie was in the tank stayed in the tank and a year later we WD-40'd the bar & chain and ran the saw like it hadn't skipped a beat.

I wish I was there to help you break down your saws. I'd like to see what's going on. In my friends and neighbors saws I found sawdust and bar oil packed into the recesses, and every one had a stripped-out plastic thread drive gear that turns the metal worm-drive gear of the oiler itself. The oiler was fine in all cases, but the plastic piece driving the metal gear was shot. Saw techs must love this because a 5 dollar piece that takes 5 minutes to change out must be very lucrative if you can charge your hour minimum.

Oiler mechanisms themselves are pretty bombproof, very simple, one moving part with tubes to direct the flow from the tank and to the bar. You can turn the oiler with your fingernail, or with a mini screwdriver. If it turns, likely the mechanism itself is OK. Lightly scrape out any gunk in the V of the threads. Compressed air is your friend, suction even better. Carburator cleaner softens and dissolves. Ether (starting fluid) dissolves very well but evaporates quickly.

Do let us know. All the saws going down at once is freakish. Everyone's saws go down at one time or another for whatever reason, but 4 at once is paralyzing.

Remember, you're not having to 'take the oiler apart'. You're just going in behind the clutch, a little deeper to inspect and clean. Its no big deal. I think its the plastic gear. You say your saws are that experienced, literally millions of rotations. This is a common ailment on saws much younger. My dad picked up a Husqvarna 246 from lowes, $100 as-is, it was returned next to new because it wasn't oiling. He bought it, I fixed it, it's my 'vacation' saw now. It can happen on a new saw. Next door neighbor, same thing, bought it new, wouldn't oil, brought it to me...brand spankin new. I knew what it was before I opened it up, explained to him what we were gonna see _while_ opening it up, and there it was- stripped out plastic gear. I had one in my spare parts kit, had him back up and running within 10 minutes.

My clutch gets caked up, but it did that back in the bar oil days, sawdust and grease and heat. A tech told me to drop the whole clutch in boiling water. I didn't. I poured boiling water on it so I didn't have to pop it off. "Keep the water out of your exhaust port" he told me.


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## Greenstar

Were you the one talking about what type of veggie oil to use, and not to use the "wrong kind" do to oxidation or something which leads to thick, hard buildup which will lead to these problems? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I cant remember if I read it on this thread, or another?
Do you know anythig about this.

But again, now that I am using bar oil again.. gunky buildup is very soft and greasey again and easily removed. It wipes right off effortlessly. This is not the case with the veg oil I was using. Stuff is like glue when it dries and hardens. I wish there was a way around this.

Some guys said to try ethanol or methanol in my oil tanks for a coupla days.. Is this alcohol or paint thinner or something? Where to I get it? Thanks guys! Thanks TM


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## Greenstar

BTW!!! 
GO PATS!!!!!!  :rockn: 

This is going to be the game of the year! I am so psyched for Sunday night baby!! We will see who the true elite is! :yoyo: 
PATRIOTS Baby! Team of the decade!...


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## ray benson

How about those PATS .


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