# Rigging w/ biners, instead of a knot..?



## TreeJunkie (Feb 24, 2004)

Some guys who i work w/ have gotten into the habit on the ground lines: which have spliced eyes;placing a steal biner 50kn and using this as a faster way to connect w/ rather than using a running bowline or the like.....THis seems fine to me in some situations>.However it does worry me when lowering heavier material. B/c of the way the load is applied, i don't think the biners are intended to be loaded this way....
I do like the idea that by using a spliced eye you are keeping a greater amount of your SWL;by avoiding using a knot...
Does anyone have any suggestions or Thoughts on this???


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## jamie (Feb 24, 2004)

*aye*

i know a company who use retired biners for this, remove the locking gate and well they get used for rigging, easy to 'tie and untie' no more wretling with a knot that is under the log/limb that is wedged ion while the climber is getting pissed

jamie


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Proper splices are stronger than any knot. 

So a spliced eye, and biner is ok in my book as long as it is properly done. 

To use the biner you must have a sling, I perfer the loopie, in the size for the load. The steel biners that I use are rated to 65kn (gearexpress). Steel and aluminum for that matter have better fatigue properties than rope, meaning that their SWL is a larger percentage of their tensile. 

IMO shock loading, such as blocking down heavy spars, would hurt the rope more so than the biners. And using the knotless system is normally faster.

What do you mean by the biners arent meant to be loaded that way?


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## jamie (Feb 24, 2004)

*slings*

we dont normally use slings, maybe we (as a company) are a bit simple and only really chocker the rope round the limb tie an knot and cut......

if its over something the bits get smaller

jamie


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Yeah I didint think of that, and that is what I do the most of, wrapping, and then clipping. I always make 2 wraps, like rocky said, to load the wraps instead of the binner. On smaller stuff I make 3. Any smaller than that and I use a loop made from 1" nylon tubing and a beer knot.


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## TreeJunkie (Feb 24, 2004)

What i meant by loading a biner that way, was b/c the way biners are tested is on a straight pull,,,not being bent around a log or brandch, i would think this would strain the biner differently than that of which they are originally designed..


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## NickfromWI (Feb 24, 2004)

Most carabiners are not designed to be shock loaded by heavy pieces of wood. 

That being said, I used to work with a guy who used the same setup. When I started there, he was using 1/2" bluestreak with a snaphook (like the kind on a flipline) tied to it. I saw that setup withstand some phenomenol loading....shock loading thousand pound pieces of wood and things like that. However, it scared the heck outta me! Before I left, we set him up with 9/16ths Yale Double Esterlon spliced rigging lines and the 50kn steel 'biners. I reccomended he not take any bigger wood that what he uses now, as he was really pushing the limits...but I'm not there anymore to see what he's doing!

So, yeah, it can be done. I wouldn't say that it's good to do it, though.

love
nick


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 24, 2004)

The balding grey haired climber has to chime in here 

When I started doing treework back in the ancient days of the late sixties, we used half inch three strand with a rope snap splice in the end. It was really jaxxy when we started to use thimbles..woo who!!!

This was in the day of Dutch Elm Disease spreading like wildfire. We would to a single wrap and snap back onto the rope itself. Then take a wrap...or two...or ??? In all those years and tons of rigging, in natural crotches too, we never had a rope break or a snap bend. 

All that said, I wouldn't want to go back to that method of rigging for a second. 

Like Shigo says, it's all about dosage. Using a 50kN biner to rig out limb wood is probably going to be OK for a long time. Slam dunking, well, do the math first.

I've been concerned with choking biners onto wood for a while too. There are so many better solutions, why not use them?

Using slings is great. If the wood is choked most of the time the biner/snap will end up under the log. You'll find pretty good odds if you're a betting climber. With a sling it makes no difference if the choke is on the bottom, leave it and grab another sling. You'll cut and roll the log later. 

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 24, 2004)

i think of this as a reusable running bowline; in trade for a nice built in throwing weight and modular sectioning; you have to be careful of the side loading like Rocky says. 

When using a running bowline, for increased/double grab; and to keep the main load off of the knot; i go with a half hitch preceding the running bowline. The 2nd choke of the running bowline being towards the heavy end/C.o.B.; so that they both pull closed positively. i think Sherrill's strategy of a longer eye on slings etc. is to avail less direct loading to the joint of the splice; is good in this form too.

i think that the half hitch, running carabiner strategy would put lots less on the carabiner/snap than a roundturn and 'capture' strategy; as the carabiner & spliced or bowline eye would still get more of the full load with just a round turn. i first tried stuff like this with old lanyard etc. snaps; using it as a way to use-up non-safety ones(both manufactured and 'dis-armed' snaps) at one guy's tree service. So i image those witrhout carabiners can try this.


Bending a flat carabiner around a roundish/non-flat surface would leverage/sideload the carabiner. Increasing the force on the carabiner many times, and applying that leverage at the carabiner's weakeast axis of support; both compounding against the SWL, and perhaps weakening the structure for a future faillure(?); if not presently. If the carabiner/snap/running bowline is set to meet it's host (to form choke grab ring) at flatter than 120deg.; you really start to leverage the line on both sides of that choke past the weight/force of the load*; in crane loads this is where the warning of not to hammer the (esp. stiffer cable) cable choker flat to the load, as to not leverage it that way. The extra grip of it being choked tight has to come from somewhere; this is it. This extra leveraged force would also pass thru the carabiner, for even more compound leveraging (on top of torquing it across a curved surface, at it's weakest angle of structure)>IMLHO. 







* If the choke meets and forms a 120 deg. angle at that meeting, each leg of that choke starts around the load carrying 1x the load force itself. At 150 deg. that is each leg 2x load; jumping to almost 3x at 160deg; accelerating loading greatly from that point. 

edit-i favour choking with slings for even more modular assemblies and utilities as Tom speaks of, using these above strategies as backup.


Or something like that............
:alien:


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## dbeck (Feb 24, 2004)

I have never heard of a running bowline breaking under load, but I have heard onseveral occasions of side loaded carabiners (like you folks speak of) breaking under load. This tells me something...like you shouldn't do it. That being said, I have never done it.
However, I have been involved in knotlesss rigging where there is a locking ladder snap or biner in a splice attached to a loopie girthed around whatever is being lowered. This seems to be the acceptable scenario IMO.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Shock loading a biner, as long as the shock stays in the SWL is ok in my book. The rate of application doesnt matter as much as the amount applied.


Edit: When using slings, like loopies.


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## NeTree (Feb 24, 2004)

I use biners sometimes, and like Rocky, I take a wrap... but more for the extra "grip' on the wood than to reduce the load on the biner.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 24, 2004)

For general rigging I like slings and a carabiner.

I like a fishermans knot on the end because it falls apart real easy onec the carabiner is off. Then i can use either end of the line whenever I want.

When on heavier wood I will take the carabiner off and use boline and a marl.

In some medium sized wood I will do the high strength tieoff (take two wraps and clip off) especially if I'm real close to the block and may want them to suck the peice up into it.

A marl or halfhitch and under the bo'lin will reduce the reduction factor of the boline signifincatly.

I'm not so muc afraid of it breaking right then, but it is a "cycles to failure" issue with me.


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## NeTree (Feb 24, 2004)

My rigging biners are rated at 65kn, and they're steel. 

I'm not worried about a 100# limb breaking it.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)




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## NickfromWI (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm not worried about the hundred pound limbs breaking it. It's the 1500lb limbs that I'm worried about!

love
nick


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## geofore (Feb 24, 2004)

*biners\rigging*

50kn and up, steel, is easy on the groundman that can't tie or untie a knot. When is the last time you ran into a groundman like that? When I used a clevis the guys would not wind them in tight, but I used them because I had them from working steel. My mistake, the guys figured they were tight enough with a few twists because they were steel, NOT! With a biner make sure to lock it if you use it. Just to snap it is not enough, it needs to be locked. When it takes a shock load it could open, if you use it, LOCK IT! It makes a difference. 
Tom, I know where your coming from, 1/2" three strand.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 24, 2004)

*Re: biners\rigging*



> _Originally posted by geofore _
> *
> Tom, I know where your coming from, 1/2" three strand. *



He for got to say Manilla too


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm sure Nick was referring to the heavy ones, in general.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *
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I have started using a running 8. It is stronger, and easier to tie when I cant see it (other side of the tree or whatever) and it is easy to check and TDS.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *... and easier to tie when I cant see it (other side of the tree or whatever) *


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## NickfromWI (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Nick-
> Just how many times per day do you rope 1500 lb limbs? I cannot remember the last time I did, but it was most likely attached to a crane with a steel cable and clevis, not a lowering line and biner. You keep trying to wig off and distract the topic but everyone else is talking about normal, typical limb lowering here. Production work type stuff, not intense rigging of huge loads. *



You only have to do it once for it to break, Rock  Just because you use a crane for the big wood, it doesn't mean everyone else does. 

Wig off?? Just trying to add my two cents worth. I agree with you whole-heartedly....there is little risk in using a 'biner in this way for small stuff. The bigger the wood, the riskier it gets....that's all.

We gotta find the fastest safest way to get the job done. Sometimes that means you can rig a whole lead rather than piecing it off.

I love ya, man!  

love
nick


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

I was just makin the point that it is easier for me to tie it than a bowline, without thinkin about it (not lookin till i am done dressing it).

I can tie the bowline (I know what you think abou climbers who can't), but I perfer the 8.


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## Koa Man (Feb 24, 2004)

I have been using steel carabiners and a sling for rigging for about 10 years now. So much faster than knots. The biggest pieces I will usually rig out of a tree on a lowering line is about 750 lbs. Never had the need to go rigging out a 1500 lb. piece in one shot, although I have free dropped pieces that must have weighed well over 3000 lbs. in one cut.


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## Dadatwins (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *
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Gotta agree on this one. Just my old fashioned dinosaur side coming out.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *
> 
> We gotta find the fastest safest way to get the job done. Sometimes that means you can rig a whole lead rather than piecing it off. *



You got that right!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 24, 2004)

i would think that an 8 would jam easier than a bowline for loading more than nominal/body weights esp.

i think that a double/ roundturn/ mountaineer bowline with a Y tie off is symetrical enough for easy inspection, also closer in strength to 8 on long arc of line, easier untie. Bowline made with the slip knot method, runs smooth enough for me to do blind etc. i'll use it for about anything as my temporary eye in the end of the line. 

Taking 8, to more Stevedore and further strategies makes it more secure, stronger and easier untie as it approaches a loose eye splice in construction(?); but on heavy loading, dragging etc.; all around use i kinda like that lil'bowline myself.

In dragging a half hitch before a timber hitch makes a straighter pulling, less load on the joint of the timber hitch drag called a killick. i further think that any loop knot drags straighter, more stable preceded with half hitch, also perhaps the lenght of tensed line between the half hitch and running bowline/carabiner enters into the equation, as well as which direction it pushes. The dragging/pivot point would be calculated fram the first half hitch choking ring.

i think that carries over to overhead rigging also in many ways.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 25, 2004)

I disagree with using a carabiner in the way being discribed. It is wrong. If you are lowering a little limb, then it's only a little wrong, if you are lowering a big limb then it's really wrong. Either way it's wrong.
It takes no more effort to use a sling, made of webbing or rope, along with a carabiner and girth hitch. It is even easier, I'd say. More importantly, it's right. A double locking rope snap works much easier than a carabiner too.
I can't believe there are fools here defending side loading a carabiner!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 25, 2004)

Maybe it's time for Tom to ask Mr. Moorehouse about it.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 25, 2004)

For my TIP when climbing I make a wrap or two before clipping the biner. 

When lowering wood, there is no resistance against the wood from spinning (that wraps would cause) until it loads the biner with a side load. 

I use slings whenever possible. I too have bent and broken steel biners from side loads, so side loading should be avoided.


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## PRUNER 1 (Feb 25, 2004)

i probably shouldnt be telling but i have taken 150-180lb lumps off on xtc with dyneema slings, or just using a bowline and steely biner. as long as you put a half hitch first then your clipped n snatched biner, then not as much force, obviously i wouldnt snatch/top down this kind of weight on this system as that would be stoopid bu for swingin in the wind then fine. sayiing that i only do this if there aint nothing to break in drop zone. i probably havent exp-lained it that well but hey, not that computer literate. ps i do use proper slings and bulls when stuff is breakable near dropzone!


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## Lumberjack (Feb 25, 2004)

Ok... I am confused.

Why would you use a biner and a bowline, instead of one or the other? Can you explain or show a pic?

XTC is fine for rigging pieces that size, isnt its TSL around 700? that would make a SWL of 700 pounds.

Oh, and why rig when you could bomb?


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## PRUNER 1 (Feb 25, 2004)

biner and bowline coz the rope i use was an old climbing line and splice was lost


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## Lumberjack (Feb 25, 2004)

Oh... the Bowline was used to make the eye on the end of the rope for the biner to clip into.

Then that is what this thread is about.

You are sayin that you make a half hitch then the choker with the biner?


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## PRUNER 1 (Feb 25, 2004)

that is correct and i find it way quicker than using slings, coz u have to find somewhere to clip your biner and rope while u tie up the sling and then attach the sling to the biner. effort and time!


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## Lumberjack (Feb 25, 2004)

When I need a quick click to hold the rope while setting the sling, I just hook it on my saddle, where ever is convient.

The half hitch would take some of the load, but it would still side load the biner.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 25, 2004)

When I was in Wales last year this came up when I was with Denny. It's a no no. How come this isn't obvious? It goes to show how un-read most people are. Take some time to Google a little instead of jabbering here and learn how these tools are meant to be used. 

MM says it right...once again. Wrong is like being dirty, you're either clean or dirty, right or wrong. 

Anyone who's breaking steel biners is doing something to scary to consider. 



Tom


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 25, 2004)

RJS,

This comes from this thread itself, go back and read the thread before blasting me.

dbeck
Member

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: baraboo, wi
Posts: 83


I have never heard of a running bowline breaking under load, but I have heard onseveral occasions of side loaded carabiners (like you folks speak of) breaking under load. This tells me something...like you shouldn't do it. That being said, I have never done it.
However, I have been involved in knotlesss rigging where there is a locking ladder snap or biner in a splice attached to a loopie girthed around whatever is being lowered. This seems to be the acceptable scenario IMO.

There have been plenty of broken biners mentioned in other threads too. This isn't the first time this came up and you should know that. 

Anyone who breaks a 50kN biner doesn't understand rigging forces. They've lived their lives dodging near misses until an accident occurs.

Have I ever choked a steel biner or rope snap? Sure...small loads with minimal slam dunk loads. Do I do that regularly, nope. Much easier to sling stuff or tie it off.

Tom


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## PRUNER 1 (Feb 25, 2004)

i think something is a bit too big if its breaking stuff. do it smaller and take ten more minutes, so what


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 25, 2004)

Take off the carabiner and use a marl or halfhitch under a bo'lin


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## Ax-man (Feb 25, 2004)

Seems like no one is listening to Tom or Mike. 

If you MUST do this type of rigging, a small clevis would be a tool better suited for this purpose.

Biners are easier to work with no doubt. but if your breaking them using them as is being discussed here, you might as well take $20 - $ 30 bucks out of your wallet and throw it in the street and let the wind blow your hard earned money away. That is basically what your doing, throwing money away when you use biners this way.

Larry


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## jmchristopher (Feb 25, 2004)

In my office, we're going to doublelocking climbing clips for our spliced in rigging, and knotted in where the loads are light. I'm trying to figure out how to keep them segregated out of life line service...paint or maybe coloured quick ties in the eyes? MM, you've got it.


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## Tom Dunlap (Feb 25, 2004)

My trademark pink spray paint has a long life on my hardware. There are lots of little nooks to hide paint. Pick a distinctive color.

Another option is to get some colored seizing string and wrap it around the splice.

If you use thimbles in the splices you could get two different colors.

Tom


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## RescueMan (Feb 25, 2004)

Back on page 2 of this thead, TreeSpyder said:


> If the choke meets and forms a 120 deg. angle at that meeting, each leg of that choke starts around the load carrying 1x the load force itself. At 150 deg. that is each leg 2x load; jumping to almost 3x at 160deg; accelerating loading greatly from that point.


But he's confusing vector loading a doubly anchored line in the middle with choker loading.

Vector loading a taut line increases the anchor loads exponentially, but choker loading creates a maximum 2:1 load at 0 degrees, decreasing to 1:1 at 180 degrees.

- Robert


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## RescueMan (Feb 25, 2004)

If you want to use a steel link as a choker on a round turn, though it would be a mite slower to lock, why not use an inexpensive but very strong screwlink. They can stand a lot more abuse than a carabiner and can handle side loading.

- Robert


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *
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Not to drive a point into the ground, but...


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 25, 2004)

Thanks for your insight, Brian.


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## Ax-man (Feb 25, 2004)

Brian,

You didn't start this thread, TJ did and you are only commenting.

I can understand where your coming from, trying to find a compromise to an aggevating problem. At least your being conservative, where others are going to the extreme.

The main problem here is this running bowline. It is one of the hardest knots to teach someone. This is what leads to using biners, instead of knots, it is easier and and doesn't require so much thinking.

I don't know how many times I have shown some one how to tie a running bowline. They can do it on the ground, but as soon as they get in the tree, they confused for some reason. You can see the frustration they are having by looking at their faces and from watching their hands. I guess untieing a knot a hundred times doesn't count as being able to tie it.

If I see this happening I have them send the rope back down, tie a bowline, send back up with sling and biner. They can figure out this combo, but can't do a knot. I hate doing this because sooner or later they think you can get by with out the sling, which leads the biner taking a hit on the gate, making it useless.

Larry


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## rumination (Feb 25, 2004)

You gotta be kidding me!! Are there really people who cannot untie a running bowline? I'm not saying that I don't believe you Rocky, it just boggles my mind. I understand that contract climbers (Rocky, Butch) do not get to choose their groundmen but no tree company should have an employee who is incapable of untying a knot.


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## Dadatwins (Feb 25, 2004)

It truly is unfortunate that so many people who are in this business can not tie the bowline. Seems like my dad taught me that knot before tieing my shoes. The place I work now only a few use bowline most use clove hitch with a few half hitches which I think is disaster waiting to happen. I think its a shame that a lot of the tried and true methods of this business are lost simply because someone "can't learn that knot"


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## NickfromWI (Feb 25, 2004)

I highly doubt there are a significant amount of groundman that cannot UNTIE a running bowline. What I would believe is that a climber up in the tree who has such an intense understanding of that knot sees it as being soooooo simple. Combine this with the fact that the ground guy might not be so familiar with the knot. Then add a little bit of sense of urgency on the side of the climber (who wants to get the job done fast), throw in some frustration and impatience....VIOLA! Now you have a groundguy who "cannot" untie the runnin' bowline.

It's not that they can't untie. Be patient. They'll figure it out. It IS an easy knot, once you know how to tie it.

love
nick

ps- make it even easier on them by making it a slippery runnin' bowline!


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *
> 
> It's not that they can't untie. Be patient. They'll figure it out. *




I dunno. So far, I've only lost $20!  

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9853&highlight=Bowline+Mindblock


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## Ax-man (Feb 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *I
> 
> ps- make it even easier on them by making it a slippery runnin' bowline! *



____________________________________________________

That really isn't that bad of an idea, Nick. Let's not stop there, why not put an extra bight in it an make it a Bowtie Bowline


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 25, 2004)

I think Rocky nailed that one right on the head. But what do you do when it is the boss that cant tie a running bowline and it takes him 5 minutes to figure out how to use a autolock biner? You think I am kidding. Just today I had to show him again how to tie a bowline into his rope snap while I was trying to give him a little tree climbing lesson. I swear, people who know nothing about trees and climbing have no business owning Tree Services. You know what they say about teaching pigs to sing dont ya? You only waste your time and annoy the pig. 
Any who, back to the point. I use a biner from time to time. the only thing I hate is when you try and yank it out of a crotch that is above your head and said biner is turned into a projectile flying back at your noggin at about 90mph. But I do use it all the time doing spruce removals. I can toss it over a higher branch, clip it to the branch Im cuttin and once it is cut free, I can simply unsnap the biner and drop the cut branch away from any obsticles. ie. house, fence or wires. Hey, if it works, roll with it.

Kenn


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OutOnaLimb _
> *... the boss that cant tie a running bowline and it takes him 5 minutes to figure out how to use a autolock biner? You think I am kidding. *



No, I don't think your kidding. My only respite is that he ain't my 'boss', he just owns his business.


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## Koa Man (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rumination _
> *You gotta be kidding me!! Are there really people who cannot untie a running bowline?
> *



Yes, my friend, unfortunately there are a lot of just plain stupid people working in this business. If they had any brains, they wouldn't be in the tree business. A prime example of stupidity is one of my groundmen, who knows that he is to gas and oil my saw when I am climbing up. I get to the top of a 50 ft. tree and ask him to send up my saw. At this point he opens the gas cap and tells me, "It's empty, should I gas it up first?"  

Does a question like that deserve an answer?


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## TreeJunkie (Feb 26, 2004)

Nick, I disagree w/ your idea of tying a slippery running bowline. Iv'e had this knot come undone while roping down, not a good thing,,,it leaves an area which if snagged could cause complete knot failure. I was intro'd to this knot by some old timers while running storm work in the carolinas last year, some old timers were telling me how it's faster to tie and untie..Then i came back home to work w/ my reg. company and showed it to a couple of good climbers i worked w/ one who'd been w/ asplundh for quite some time. This was a big no no i was told, and sure enough after contiuing usage of this knot for a while i saw why.....

To the tune of having dumbasses on the crew who can't figure out how to untie a knot........ If after being shown how to a time or two and the guy is still unable to perform this simple task w/ efficiency, then in my opinion i don't need this guy working underneath me,,,,,,If he's that dumb, he's an accident waiting to happen....


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## Koa Man (Feb 26, 2004)

If I am rigging without using a sling and carabiner, I normally use a timber hitch instead of a running bowline. Much faster to tie and untie and I never had one come loose on me yet. A hard jerk on a big log can make a bowline very difficult to untie.


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## TreeJunkie (Feb 26, 2004)

*Climbers Knot knowing their Knots..*

To the tune of having a climber who is incapable of tying all of the basic knots,,,,,When i was first getting into climbing a couple years back i wasn't exactly proficient w/ all of the knots out there...Then along came a nasty ice storm, and along w/ that along came a grey haired grumpy old man named Tom,  j/k In that month i worked w/ tom he taught me alot, one thing he told me was back home w/ his business, a climber doesn't go into the tree until he shows proficiency w/ all the basic knots needed in the tree.. At the time I didn't like hearing this b/c i was that guy, who shouldn't have been climbing yet...But it awakened me. And what did i do i went home and practiced over and over till i got it...Thanks Tom! It's the principal of knowing what your doing completely before ever leaving the ground....If all climbers took this outlook there would be many less accidents w/ in our industry....


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## xtremetrees (Feb 26, 2004)

Id like to rigg these buggers out


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 26, 2004)

What are those? Upside down trees?


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## RescueMan (Feb 26, 2004)

> Combine this with the fact that the...guy might not be so familiar with the knot. Then add a little bit of sense of urgency..., throw in some frustration and impatience....VIOLA!


This is why the bowline is being phased out of Firefighter training in my area. That, and few opportunities to practice/use ropes, and (I guess I have to admit it) not always the best and the brightest on volunteer fire departments.

The old curriculum used to include the "bowline-with-a-bight" or three-loop bowline to use as an improvised seat harness. Now I've heard certified instructors teaching that the bowline is NOT a life safety knot. And many rope rescue instructors, in a variety of fields, have gone to teaching mainly the figure-8 family of knots.



> The place I work now only a few use bowline most use clove hitch with a few half hitches which I think is disaster waiting to happen.


This combo is what is taught to firefighters for raising or lowering equipment, such as long-handled tools, axes, and air bottles. I believe this is a very secure system and can't imagine it wouldn't be safe in tree work.

- Robert


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## Lumberjack (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xtremetrees _
> *Id like to rigg these buggers out *




What is the DBH on those things?


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## Dadatwins (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RescueMan _
> *
> 
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When rigging trees I have seen the hitch open. When the knot has constant tension not likely, but when swinging limbs on a rope there is a few seconds after limb reaches end of swing and starts return that there is no tension on rope and hitch can move. I have seen them unravel mid air when tension is removed. Putting a few half hitches behind can make it more secure but I still feel risk of movement is there. I prefer bowline and for bigger wood I use a marl and bowline. I have never seen bowline unravel yet that was properly tied & set. For raising equipment like pole saw and water bottles clove hitch works because of constant tension.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 26, 2004)

TreeJunkie- If something grabs the little loop that makes the slipped bowline slippery, it'll pull the tail out and leave you with a normal runnin' bowline. Now if something were to somehow grab the tail and yank on that, then maybe...

love
nick


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 28, 2004)

i think that in a time before our own there was an addage "safe as 2 half hitches" that was known to people that didn't tie knots even.

i think that a round turn or another turn then flipped to the more self trapping clove is usally defined as secure backed with 2 half hitches. i leave a nice tail, and will tuck a bight of it(to make slipped hitch) under the primary loaded line coming into clove for neatness and added security. i look at successive friction to be able to increase in rigs, wraps and knots to the point where a baby, could hold a bus. So i take the part of line that a baby could hold the busses pull, and trap that under the busses pull. So the bus holds what the baby could, as the bus stands on it's own bootstrap. i think many knots have such a strategy.

Another clove form that works well for me is a slipped constrictor, jsut don't let anyone else untie it!! So i'll use it for supports etc. 

When using any kind of half hitch to running bowline etc. strategy, do y'all setup specifically for the turns not to reverse (like extended clove) or set it with the running bowline etc. wrap opposite the direction of the first? i always go the same direction.

i always make sure that if the support is not over the load, that the line comes down the load on the support side, then under, then the cross to make hitch and trace down to the running bowline. So that upon loading of the line, the support pulls the hitch closed, not relaxes it. By setting the crossing line of the hitch, the eye of the bowline (sling same way), on the opposite side of the load than support; so that these devices act as an immediate restriction to the pull from the support.

Even if the first was set like that, changing direction on the 2nd turn; would pull the mainline towards the support choking that 1st hitch closed; it could at the same time/direction of pull loosen the 2nd wrap. Because it would be pulling into the restriction of the bowline eye, rather than setting away from it. As once again the most leveraged position against a pull is on the same axis, most directly opposing. Errrrrrrrr that is how i've taught myself to see and work it.

Or something like that!
:alien:


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## xtremetrees (Feb 28, 2004)

One day I hope they invent a knot that unties itself.

Maybe when I can invent one. A mechanical one that is remote controlled. Chances are thou granny would untie a log over her house with her ultraviloet TV remote. ha
Boom! Doom on poor granny.. Oops back to the drawing board.

Carl I dont know bro Somewhere in southeast asia I think.
Look fat dont they. Probably have to use an old steel core flipline to choke the stubb attach a loop runner and biner or two to rope them out.

I think Afghan Iraq trees.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 28, 2004)

Guys, those trees are called Baobabs. They grow in Africa. You can see them there, or read about them in "The Little Prince."







You should read that book anyway. 

love
nick


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## xtremetrees (Feb 28, 2004)

Hey thanks Nick,
I like these from Aust.
It looks like two trees in one. A double crowed tree?
Nature sure is awsome

Ps. Araucaria bidwillii (bunya pine; Murrurundi, New South Wales


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