# on road diesel



## osb_mail

What kind on additive do you use in your chipper if you have to use on road diesel ?I heard that you should not run on road diesel if you dont use a additive is this true ?


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## John464

thats a new one. Ive only heard of the difference being a red dye for off road, which is tax exempt for road tax usage. the on road diesel doesn't have this tax but is taxed for on-road usage.

All my off road equipment has been using off road diesel for years. Never an issue, nor do I add anything to it.


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## osb_mail

I pretty sure there is difference it has to do with how sulfur is in it I am not sure just what I have herd .I would say there is difference in the smell for sure .


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## osb_mail

The problem is with using on road in off road motors .


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## John464

osb_mail said:


> The problem is with using on road in off road motors .



done that too. low sulfur diesel has come into play recently and I have never put that in any off road equip. I have put on road diesel into off road equipment last year before most stations started carrying the low sulfur stuff and never an issue. Things may have changed like your saying since the latest low sulfur diesel emmision laws and just about all stations are now carrying low sulfur diesel. Im wondering if the off road diesel is also low sulfur?


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## Curbside

I don't know what the rules and content of your fuel in your states are but here we call it Purple fuel and the only difference is that it is coloured. It comes from the same source as regular fuel. Farmers are only allowed to use that fuel here as certain taxes have been taken off the cost. If you get caught on the road or using it in construction machines for non-agriculture reasons you face high fines and an audit from the tax department.


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## jerseywild

No problem using low sulfur in the chipper the sulfur does act as an lubricant for the engine. You may foul up your emission equipment if you use high sulfur in the new diesel engines.


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## Mowingman

There is now no difference in on-road and off-road diesel, except for the red dye. In the past, off road diesel had a higher sulfur content. However, some time back the govt. put a stop to the use of high sulfur diesel. So, now they are the same, except for the red dye indicating that no highway tax has been paid on the off road stuff.
Jeff


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## DDM

As of last yr all on road diesel had to be 15 ppm sulfer.If you read any of the major oils websites it states that low sulfer fuel has been known to cause leaks in the fuel systems of pre 2007 diesel vehicles.Sulfur causes the orings in your injector pump to swell as the old on road had plenty of sulphur.Remove the sulfer and the o rings shrink and eventually collapse.I use an addative in every other tank full of fuel.Off road fuel still has sulpher in it and the epa will not require the removal of that sulphur for another 9 yrs.If you take a look you off road equipment still smokes like a diesel should and you truck doesnt near as much as it used to.
Reports show some oring failures my local mechanic has seen Quite a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel
United States

As of September 2006, on-highway diesel fuel sold at retail locations in the United States is ULSD[4].

Ultra-low sulfur diesel was proposed by EPA as a new standard for the sulfur content in on-road diesel fuel sold in the United States since October 15, 2006, except for rural Alaska. California required it since September 1, 2006, and rural Alaska will transition all diesel to ULSD in 2010. This new regulation applies to all diesel fuel, diesel fuel additives and distillate fuels blended with diesel for on-road use, such as kerosene, however, it does not yet apply to train locomotives, marine, or off road uses. By December 1, 2010, all highway diesel will be ULSD. Non-road diesel transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2010. Locomotive and marine diesel also transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2012. There are exemptions for small refiners of nonroad, locomotive and marine diesel that allow for 500 ppm diesel to remain in the system until 2014. After December 1, 2014 all highway, nonroad, locomotive and marine diesel produced and imported will be ULSD.

The EPA mandated the use of ULSD fuel in model year 2007 and newer highway diesel fuel engines equipped with advanced emission control systems that require the new fuel. These advanced emission control technologies will be required for marine diesel engines in 2014 and for locomotives in 2015.

The allowable sulfur content for ULSD (15 ppm) is much lower than the previous U.S. on-highway standard for low sulfur diesel (LSD, 500 ppm), which not only reduces emissions of sulfur compounds (blamed for acid rain), but also allows advanced emission control systems to be fitted that would otherwise be poisoned by these compounds. These systems can greatly reduce emissions of oxides of nitrogen and particulate matter.

Because this grade of fuel is comparable to European grades and engines will no longer have to be redesigned to cope with higher sulfur content and may use advanced emissions control systems which can be damaged by sulfur, the standard may increase the availability of diesel-fueled passenger cars in the U.S. European diesels are much more popular with buyers than those available in the U.S.

Additionally, the EPA is assisting manufacturers with the transition to tougher emissions regulations by loosening them for model year 2007 to 2009 light-duty diesel engines.[5] As a result, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Toyota, and others are expecting to begin producing diesel vehicles for the U.S. market to join those from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen.[6]

According to EPA estimates, with the implementation of the new fuel standards for diesel, nitrogen oxide emissions will be reduced by 2.6 million tons each year and soot or particulate matter will be reduced by 110,000 tons a year.

On June 1st, 2006, U.S. refiners were required to produce 80% of their annual output as ULSD (15 ppm), and petroleum marketers and retailers were required to label[7] diesel fuel, diesel fuel additives and kerosone pumps with EPA-authorized language disclosing fuel type and sulfur content. Other requirements effective June 1st, 2006, including EPA-authorized language on Product Transfer Documents and sulfur-content testing standards, are designed to prevent misfueling, contamination by higher-sulfur fuels and liability issues. The EPA deadline for industry compliance to a 15 ppm sulfur content was originally set for July 15, 2006 for distribution terminals, and by September 1, 2006 for retail. But on November 8, 2005, the deadline was extended by 45 days to September 1, 2006 for terminals and October 15, 2006 for retail. In California, the extension was not granted and followed the original schedule. As of December, 2006, the ULSD standard has been in effect according to the amended schedule, and compliance at retail locations was reported to be in place.

Sulfur is not a lubricant, however the process used to reduce the Sulfur also reduces the fuel's lubricating properties. Lubricity is a measure of the fuel's ability to lubricate and protect the various parts of the engine's fuel injection system from wear. The processing required to reduce sulfur to 15 ppm also removes naturally-occurring lubricity agents in diesel fuel. To manage this change ASTM International (formerly the American Society for Testing and Materials) adopted the lubricity specification defined in ASTM D975 for all diesel fuels and this standard went into effect January 1, 2005. [8]

The refining process that removes the sulfur also reduces the aromatic content and density of the fuel, resulting in a minor decrease in the energy content, by about 1%. This decrease in energy content may result in reduced peak power and fuel economy. The reduction is only slight and will likely go unnoticed.

ULSD will run in any engine designed for the ASTM D-975 diesel fuels.

It is, however, known to cause seals to shrink (Source: Chevron paper) and can cause fuel pump failures in Volkswagen TDI engines; biodiesel blends are reported to prevent that failure (Source: HRCCC.org Biodiesel Best Management Practices).


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## DDM

Mowingman said:


> There is now no difference in on-road and off-road diesel, except for the red dye. In the past, off road diesel had a higher sulfur content. However, some time back the govt. put a stop to the use of high sulfur diesel. So, now they are the same, except for the red dye indicating that no highway tax has been paid on the off road stuff.
> Jeff



I beg to differ.
Ultra-low sulfur diesel was proposed by EPA as a new standard for the sulfur content in on-road diesel fuel sold in the United States since October 15, 2006, except for rural Alaska. California required it since September 1, 2006, and rural Alaska will transition all diesel to ULSD in 2010. This new regulation applies to all diesel fuel, diesel fuel additives and distillate fuels blended with diesel for on-road use, such as kerosene, however, it does not yet apply to train locomotives, marine, or off road uses. By December 1, 2010, all highway diesel will be ULSD. Non-road diesel transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2010. Locomotive and marine diesel also transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2012.

High sulfer Diesel also costs them less to produce as it doesnt have to be refined as much.


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## osb_mail

OK now we are getting some where but it seems on road about the only fuel you can get easily so what kind of stuff should we use as a additive ?


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## DDM

Here ya go read this.
http://inchoate.harm.org/~halbritt/dodge/Diesel Fuel Additive V3.pdf

I use the 2 stroke outboard oil at 7.50 a gallon.
some more info.
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f28/do-we-need-fuel-additives-lubricants-185055/


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## Jumper

Curbside said:


> I don't know what the rules and content of your fuel in your states are but here we call it Purple fuel and the only difference is that it is coloured. It comes from the same source as regular fuel. Farmers are only allowed to use that fuel here as certain taxes have been taken off the cost. If you get caught on the road or using it in construction machines for non-agriculture reasons you face high fines and an audit from the tax department.



Farmers are not the only ones that use it. We also use it here in all mine trucks and other machines eg graders as they do not go on any public roads ergo why pay the road tax portion of the perlitre cost, which is considerable


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## timberwolf tree

i was told that in nj they cut the diesel fuel with kerosone in the winter 

but in ny i use polar power to help with starting


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## Curbside

Jumper said:


> Farmers are not the only ones that use it. We also use it here in all mine trucks and other machines eg graders as they do not go on any public roads ergo why pay the road tax portion of the perlitre cost, which is considerable




There are certain industries that are allowed to use it here as well. Commerical Fisherman, Some Logging Operations and Mining operations and Cities and Municpalities. All of them must use it on off road applications except cities and municipalities can use it for road repair (only with their own machines) Contractors are NOT allowed to use dyed fuel on any of their machines and the regulations specifically specify even if the machines are used in off road activies they must use non-dyed fuels.


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## huckaberry3

farm Diesel is all I used in my skid loader and never had any problems with the operation or the law.


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## DDM

Here anything that doesnt need a license plate can use off road.


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## 2dogs

An old thread but here goes. I only can speak about the situation in Collyfornia. Here diesel is a "pipeline product", that is there is only 1 diesel fuel specification for all the refineries and all fuel is blended to that spec. Once the jobbers recieve the diesel they can blend in additives, however there is no standard for "premium diesel" so one so called premium can be different from another. Here we have red dyed off road diesel. The only difference from pipeline diesel is the dye. In additioin some diesel, both on road and off road, can be a winter blend. Winter mix varies by station because of the local climate. All of our diesel is ultra-low sulfur, ULSD.

We used to have and may still have a green (IIRC) dyed diesel for commercial fishing boats. You will be happy to know in a national emergency on road vehicles may use off road fuel.

BTW say NO to biodiesel. Converting food crops to biodiesel crops to reduce price is a crime against humanity. Planet earth needs to grow all the food it can so no person regardless of how poor they are has to starve. I would rather pay a higher price for diesel than use government subsidised biodiesel. Reclaimed oils are OK to use but don't amount to much gallonage right now.

Same goes for corn based ethanol but this could become a huge battle. Obama is in the pocket of the corn lobby, in other words ADM (spit), and he will push for ethanol cars and increasing the ethanol content of gasoline. Of course ADM will have a patent on the only acceptable corn hybrid.

Diesel today was $4.10/gal!!!

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/

http://www.wellworthproducts.com/articles/colordiesel.asp

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM/Products_Services/Fuels/Diesel_Fuels_FAQ.asp


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## diesel&coffee

I put 1/2 quart +/- of 30 wt NON DETERGENT oil in my CUMMINS 2500 truck with some diesel clean/other MOST tanks... sometimes I forget...

Now that B20 diesel can be had in in South Texas I usually run that- except when it gets really cold! Then I opt for old mix! My injectors are clean, my top cyn spotless and my left pump happy.. With B20 my mpg goes up an average of 2.5 on the highway!


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## 26newtreeguy

So can I run the off-road diesel in my chipper. When it is running it running off road. But it being towand on the road. So is ok in MA to run off road diesel in the chipper!? thanks for any find back Carl


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## John464

26newtreeguy said:


> So can I run the off-road diesel in my chipper. When it is running it running off road. But it being towand on the road. So is ok in MA to run off road diesel in the chipper!? thanks for any find back Carl


yes, off road in your stumper, chipper, loader. On road in the trucks only.


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## 460magnumMOD

A little bit of new, or filtered used veggi oil is a great additive for lubricity, as sulfer use to be the main lubricator for pumps and injectors and has been cut down dramatically. if your too skeptical of that then Howes' diesel lubricator additive is great, and also aids as a cleaner for injectors and valves. Anything that isn't a registered motor vehicle driving on town or state roads can run whatever you have. As far as the engines are concerned there is no real difference with fuel systems. Both can run on anything from home heating fuel to low sulfur, to bio diesel. Only main difference is exhaust, cats and particle filters. You could cut the diesel with kerosene in winter, very safe if you add too much its not going to harm anything. If you use home heating oil, just filter it out a little better before filling your tanks as most is a little more dirty than diesel. Its basically dirty #2 diesel, witch can also be cut with kero. I have done many of my own little studies with all this stuff, and more as I went to school for diesel mechanics and have been doing that in both repair and performance applications. And I do it with my own truck so I wouldn't tell you it if I hadn't tried it. And my truck is an '05' dodge w/ cummins, and no issues what so ever.


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## juststumps

Curbside said:


> There are certain industries that are allowed to use it here as well. Commerical Fisherman, Some Logging Operations and Mining operations and Cities and Municpalities. All of them must use it on off road applications except cities and municipalities can use it for road repair (only with their own machines) Contractors are NOT allowed to use dyed fuel on any of their machines and the regulations specifically specify even if the machines are used in off road activies they must use non-dyed fuels.



that rule varies by COUNTRY, STATE , PROVINCE... every place has their own rules on how to grab TAX money !!!! in NJ , if it doesn't run the road,, you can use non tax fuel...i don't use enough to warrant a fuel tank,, so i just buy 20 gals at a time at the filling station...and pay the tax......


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## dumbhunter

well imop i think they should keep enough sulfur to keep from damaging our engines or pay us to upgrade since they change the rules after we started playing the game. if it gets to the point of my old engine getting ruined or burning off road cause sulfer content is suitable. hhhmmm i be :censored: if i have to pay a fortune for the fuel and then have to buy additives so i dont ruin my engine. veggie mobile may be the way i go. 

let the cops smell the donut grease as they chase me.....


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## CLEARVIEW TREE

osb_mail said:


> What kind on additive do you use in your chipper if you have to use on road diesel ?I heard that you should not run on road diesel if you dont use a additive is this true ?


 All diesel be it on or off road should have a supplement incorporated by you. Here's why: Store bought diesel is very hard on the motor, has high sulfur and deposit content, sometimes and often has high moisture content and can have a low- cetane. I you use a thing called Power Service supplement and even run their winter type , well in winter for the anti gel properties. Ford Powerstrokes however,like i drive, already have a pretty fail safe heated fuel system. It's nice to have the higher cetane a s well that a good supplement can add. Also if you're storin more than 50 gallons, and for long periods include a good Bio-Cide to protect against the build up of microorganisms in the fuel characteristic of storing diesel.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE

I've heard that the older dodge trucks with the mech. injection cummins are prime candidates for wvo conversions and runnin biodiesel as well. Any motor, be it a mech injected Bandit chipper with the cat diesel, tractor, etc., will run great in summer and fall on new or used filtered veg oil blended 25% petro diesel and 75% veg oil!! Don't run that ratio in the winter, for major gelling will occur. You guys with the brand new machines with warranties, listen up, now is the time to experiment with alternative fuels while you've got the peace of mind with the coverage. If you indeed experience a problem, don't tell them what you were doin with the fuel!


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## Marco

Any alternative fuel ideas that are talked about that somebody has tried on their own are best left quiet I'm starting to realize. More you brag less there is for yourself.


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## 460magnumMOD

*Check out this site!!!!*

Here is a site all of you should look at www.solixbiofuels.com This stuff is going to be the future. They are developing systems to create biodiesel from certain species of algae. The best part is they can produce more fuel from tubes of algae covering the size of a two car garage than can be produced by a football field size area of soybeans. There is no competition with agriculture, so food prices won't be driven up because the food is being used for making fuel instead. And they build these "algae fields" around coal burning power plants and other plants emitting carbon dioxide and nitrogen dioxide, pump those gasses into the water filled tubes the algae is in and the algae not only feeds off of this mixture of gasses dangerous to us, it converts them into oxygen. There for it cleans up the air we breath before it even becomes a fuel. The oil this certain type of algae produces is equivalent to vegetable oil making it easy to convert to biodiesel. The by product can be used to make ethanol or even animal feed. Not to mention it can be reproduced rapidly (I'm sure you've all seen algae take over a pond quickly) and year round in climate controlled water filled tubes. And on top of all that no fuel is used to collect it, unlike all the fuel used to harvest corn and soy beans. In that method more fuel is used to produce the biodiesel than is actually produced. How does that decrease dependency on petroleum oil??? I found all this stuff about algae very exciting and interesting since I heard about it 4 or 5 years ago. Now more information is out on it and more is being done with it. I,m really hoping that this takes off. It can be a difficult process since the algae has to be in prefect conditions, but this company has the knowledge to make it happen. The algae fields they have set up, and are testing and developing look similar to a bunch of solar panels except that they are clear plastic tubes filled with water and algae soaking up the sun and the CO2. Its almost a totally automated system. I just want to see diesel prices back to affordable prices. This is all getting way out of hand!!!


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## CLEARVIEW TREE

*Right on magnum!*

I've done extensive reading and things on biofuels for a while now and the algae seems to be the most bang for the buck followed by veg based biodiesel and switch grass biofuels. The algae is the easiest on the environment and it's funny people still are stupid and closed minded and are like geez you mean you can do that, wow no way. But yet hundreds of thousands of people have been runnin veg based biofuels for 100 years! Rudolph Diesel said in the 1890's after he developed the first diesel engine(it ran on peanut oil) that biofuels would be the fuel for the future. Wake up America!

U.T. over here in knoxville,tn started a biofuel farm in Vonore<tn. and are growing switch grass for fuel production. If all goes well and it already is, the technology will be taught to local farmers and they can share in the growing of switch grass and deversify theirselves.:monkey:


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## 2dogs

CLEARVIEW TREE said:


> All diesel be it on or off road should have a supplement incorporated by you. Here's why: Store bought diesel is very hard on the motor, has high sulfur and deposit content, sometimes and often has high moisture content and can have a low- cetane. I you use a thing called Power Service supplement and even run their winter type , well in winter for the anti gel properties. Ford Powerstrokes however,like i drive, already have a pretty fail safe heated fuel system. It's nice to have the higher cetane a s well that a good supplement can add. Also if you're storin more than 50 gallons, and for long periods include a good Bio-Cide to protect against the build up of microorganisms in the fuel characteristic of storing diesel.



Not true. California diesel is all ultra-low sulfur be it on or off road.


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## 2dogs

CLEARVIEW TREE said:


> I've done extensive reading an things on biofuels for a while now and the algae seems to be the most bang for the buck followed by veg based biodiesel and switch grass biofuels. The algae is the easiest on the environment and it's funny people still are stupid and closed minded and are like geez you mean you can do that, wow no way. But yet hundreds of thousands of people have been runnin veg based biofuels for 100 years! Rudolph Diesel said in the 1890's after he developed the first diesel engine(it ran on peanut oil) that biofuels would be the fuel for the future. Wake up America!
> 
> U.T. over here in knoxville,tn started a biofuel farm in Vonore<tn. and are growing switch grass for fuel production. If all goes well and it already is, the technology will be taught to local farmers and they can share in the growing of switch grass and deversify theirselves.:monkey:



Diesel designed his motor to run on coal dust, not a liquid fuel. One of the big selling points of the first succesful diesels was that farmers could run the motor on cold pressed farm by-product oils. Nearly any oil worked in those early low speed diesels. I do not support growing crops for government subsidised fuel while many people in other countries don't have enough to eat.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE

2dogs said:


> Not true. California diesel is all ultra-low sulfur be it on or off road.


 Any fuel from just about any comm. pump is going to be somewhat contaminated. The formula i use on my biodiesel processor far surpassed astm standards for ppm quality by the manufacturer! You can't tell me that what they sell at the pump station of yours with the 30 year old fuel storage tanks is cleaner than my biodiesel(filtered 3 times and water and bubblewashed 2 times) held in "brand new steel drums"! That crap don't fly here. 
The american farmer is in more of a challenge now to stay in biz than ever before! Why not give em a way to create a usable cash flow from crops that can be easily turned into 100% enviro safe fuels and decrease the need to depend on a darn terrorist for fuel! This is a real epidemic and there are only a limited peoples, like myself trying to make things better for the country. It is people like yourself who don't have an open mind that cause many things to get snuffed, when in all actuality they were great ideas....proven great ideas!


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## CLEARVIEW TREE

2dogs said:


> Diesel designed his motor to run on coal dust, not a liquid fuel. One of the big selling points of the first succesful diesels was that farmers could run the motor on cold pressed farm by-product oils. Nearly any oil worked in those early low speed diesels. I do not support growing crops for government subsidised fuel while many people in other countries don't have enough to eat.


 I don't know of any countries that eat algae and it in itself remains the most promising method of biofuels production. As a matter of fact, exhaust fed into a pond gives the algae carbon dioxide and the algae converts it into oxygen. Hmmm, maybe that might change your mind knowing that it would reduce greenhouse gases. We have people rihgt here whop don't have enough to eat, why worry about another country. If you don't want to stand behind American needs, just move over to the hungry country you speak of and help em out why don't ya!


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## 460magnumMOD

Yes Clearview, ALGAE! ALGAE! ALGAE! All the big biofuel producers pretty much agree that making enough biofuel from corn, and or soy beans (or any other land based plant for that matter) just won't cut it! They will never be able to produce enough to really drive gown fuel costs. Algae DOES have the ability to fully replace America petroleum diesel consumption, and replace it with renewable biodiesel completely. But for now, Why the H### won't the money hungry A######'s in Washington step in and take care of the American people (like they're suppose to) and quit lining their pockets with money from big oil lobbyist's! Sometimes our government gets me so mad.


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## redprospector

460magnumMOD said:


> Why the H### won't the money hungry A######'s in Washington step in and take care of the American people (like they're suppose to) and quit lining their pockets with money from big oil lobbyist's! Sometimes our government gets me so mad.



That's a pretty fine line you're walking there.
The founders of our country stated pretty clearly that the sole purpose of the government is to ensure the liberties of the people, not take care of them.
I agree that too many politician's are lining their pockets in one way or another (1 would be too many). But it's up to the American people to take care of themselves. It's amazing how far we've strayed from what the founding father's intended. No wonder we're in such a mess.

Andy


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## 460magnumMOD

I don't mean take care of us like we're a bunch of kids, but to do the job they were appointed to do. What we voted them in there to do. Represent us. I can take care of myself. But when it comes to issues like these, and they know whats going on up there (no matter what they say, they do) they should be looking out for the people that elected them to that position.


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## 460magnumMOD

I do agree with you though redprospector. The American people need to step it up and get back in the game. We've gotten complacent.


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## redprospector

460magnumMOD said:


> I do agree with you though redprospector. The American people need to step it up and get back in the game. We've gotten complacent.



Now we're on the same page. 

Andy


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## 2dogs

460magnumMOD said:


> Yes Clearview, ALGAE! ALGAE! ALGAE! All the big biofuel producers pretty much agree that making enough biofuel from corn, and or soy beans (or any other land based plant for that matter) just won't cut it! They will never be able to produce enough to really drive gown fuel costs. Algae DOES have the ability to fully replace America petroleum diesel consumption, and replace it with renewable biodiesel completely. But for now, Why the H### won't the money hungry A######'s in Washington step in and take care of the American people (like they're suppose to) and quit lining their pockets with money from big oil lobbyist's! Sometimes our government gets me so mad.



Kind of a necropost but at least this thread is a sticky.

I have no problem with algal or other non-food biodiesel. The same goes for reclaimed oil like fryer oil. I am against the transition of food crops into biofuel. ADM and Monsanto are working to try to get their soy and corn patented as the gov't approved crops. Obama is in the pocket of both. Do you really want our gov't to subsidise huge industrofarming operations like ADM and Monsanto? Obama is likely to be another Clinton and block any and all oil drilling. With the stroke of a pen we can end up with more marine sanctuaries like we have here an California. Bad news for Americans.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE

2dogs said:


> Kind of a necropost but at least this thread is a sticky.
> 
> I have no problem with algal or other non-food biodiesel. The same goes for reclaimed oil like fryer oil. I am against the transition of food crops into biofuel. ADM and Monsanto are working to try to get their soy and corn patented as the gov't approved crops. Obama is in the pocket of both. Do you really want our gov't to subsidise huge industrofarming operations like ADM and Monsanto? Obama is likely to be another Clinton and block any and all oil drilling. With the stroke of a pen we can end up with more marine sanctuaries like we have here an California. Bad news for Americans.



RIGHT ON MAN!


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## jbighump

there is alot more sulfur in the off-road fuel but i dont see a porblem running it unless it has all that emissions crap.


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## thejdman04

Most fuel has the same sulfer content only difference is dye. some off road fuel has high sulfer but most is the same.


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## 046

don't keep track of regs... but a buddy works at an Oil/fuel testing lab. 
he tells me... most times there's no difference between off-road and on-road diesel, except for the dye. 



DDM said:


> I beg to differ.
> Ultra-low sulfur diesel was proposed by EPA as a new standard for the sulfur content in on-road diesel fuel sold in the United States since October 15, 2006, except for rural Alaska. California required it since September 1, 2006, and rural Alaska will transition all diesel to ULSD in 2010. This new regulation applies to all diesel fuel, diesel fuel additives and distillate fuels blended with diesel for on-road use, such as kerosene, however, it does not yet apply to train locomotives, marine, or off road uses. By December 1, 2010, all highway diesel will be ULSD. Non-road diesel transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2010. Locomotive and marine diesel also transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2012.
> 
> High sulfer Diesel also costs them less to produce as it doesnt have to be refined as much.


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## J.Gordon

DDM said:


> Here ya go read this.
> http://inchoate.harm.org/~halbritt/dodge/Diesel Fuel Additive V3.pdf
> 
> I use the 2 stroke outboard oil at 7.50 a gallon.
> some more info.
> http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f28/do-we-need-fuel-additives-lubricants-185055/



This is what my diesels get in them also! My 91 CTD injector pumps got very quite after I added the 2 stroke oil. My International tractor gets this treatment also.


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## jefflovstrom

osb_mail said:


> What kind on additive do you use in your chipper if you have to use on road diesel ?I heard that you should not run on road diesel if you dont use a additive is this true ?



Hi osb, I did not read all the posts, but I will say this. We use red dye in the chippers. I think that if you buy a new chipper in the future with the current administration, the engines will be conformed to not accept red dye-- it is all about money and "Being Green" (it is shull bit). 
Jeff


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## Backertree

My local fuel supplier started to put higher percentages of soydiesel into our off-road dyed fuel when they took the sulfur out to help it maintain it's lubrication properties. At different times of the year, adding lots more soybean oil to the diesel fuel does not cost any more and it lubricates better I am told. I would also rather help a mesh cap wearing farmer than a sheik.

Here in Missouri, I use dyed diesel fuel in all our off-road machines such as chippers, our tub grinder, farm tractors and even our old beater diesel pickups that never leave the farm. This way you avoid paying the road tax. You also can just save your receipts and at the end of the year turn them in for any fuel used off-road and they mail you a refund for the road tax on those gallons. 

The local flat hatted DOT boys are famous for going to farm auctions and tree service yards and stick a strip of paper into the fuel tank and see if dyed fuel is present - you don't want that fine!


----------



## Finn1

jefflovstrom said:


> Hi osb, I did not read all the posts, but I will say this. We use red dye in the chippers. I think that if you buy a new chipper in the future with the current administration, the engines will be conformed to not accept red dye-- it is all about money and "Being Green" (it is shull bit).
> Jeff



Not true: The current administration has Not changed the EPA regulations. The current engine emission regs were all in place under the right wing Busch admin.

Having said that, the CURRENT regs include a timetable to clamp down on off highway emissions and remove the sulfur (down to 15ppm) from off highway engines.

In other words off highway will be required to have the same specs as on highway fuel. Off highway engines will incorporate the same emission technologies as on highway engines.

Again, these plans have been in place for several years, so don't use the current admin as a scapegoat.

Clean air is a good thing for my grandchildren.

From a practical standpoint, most off road (dyed) fuel sold now actually meets on road (ULSD) standards.

Alan


----------



## jefflovstrom

Finn1 said:


> Not true: The current administration has Not changed the EPA regulations. The current engine emission regs were all in place under the right wing Busch admin.
> 
> Having said that, the CURRENT regs include a timetable to clamp down on off highway emissions and remove the sulfur (down to 15ppm) from off highway engines.
> 
> In other words off highway will be required to have the same specs as on highway fuel. Off highway engines will incorporate the same emission technologies as on highway engines.
> 
> Again, these plans have been in place for several years, so don't use the current admin as a scapegoat.
> 
> Clean air is a good thing for my grandchildren.
> 
> From a practical standpoint, most off road (dyed) fuel sold now actually meets on road (ULSD) standards.
> 
> Alan



I wasnt going political, but this admin sucks and is the worst for business and freedom. Any way, this admin is pushing for 'cap and trade' and everything it can to socialize this country. 
Jeff
Jeff


----------



## skid row

At the local fuel plant here the manager told me the red dyed off road fuel is the exact same diesel as the on road fuel. EXCEPT for the red dye and xtra road tax.
That being said I use power service additive in all my on and off road compression ignition engines.


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## cjk

Here is a study I found on lubricity additives for ULSD.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728


----------



## TwistedHiCap

As of 01/01/2011 all Diesel supplied here in the UK be it road fuel or off road fuel will be USLD and be allowed to be upto 7%Bio ! its to meet emmisions regulations and the likes of John Deere are now producing engines which meet EuroIIIB regs with catalysts and EGR ! 

we hsall see how the older engines will like the lack of sulphur!

Additives here we come


----------



## jefflovstrom

Whoop, we go to Teir 4!
Jeff :help:


----------



## TwistedHiCap

Wont be long here too ! 

Our wagons are already running teir 4 and 5 iirc ! AdBlue catalyst additive as standard ! ((((


----------



## ltdann86

All on road fuel is ultra-low sulpher...greenish in color
red is non taxed that's why it's red :sad: Offroad,Boats,home heating etc
red....all the same
Will not be long before it's all ultra low


----------



## StinkyBunny

It is ULSD and has been since 2008. If you want a cheap lubricity additive for your diesel, add a small amount, 3% of biodiesel to it. It's cheap and it's made right here in the USA.


----------



## daddy

In the summer the company I work for can use 5000 gallons of fuel in a week with no problem. When the offroad tank is empty, I use the on road fuel in skids, hoes,tractors, whatever, and have not really had any problems. We don't use any additives, and probably buy the cheapest fuel available.


----------



## 2dogs

daddy said:


> In the summer the company I work for can use 5000 gallons of fuel in a week with no problem. When the offroad tank is empty, I use the on road fuel in skids, hoes,tractors, whatever, and have not really had any problems. We don't use any additives, and probably buy the cheapest fuel available.


 
Yep. Diesel is a pipeline product meaning the fuel product is blended and is all the same. Certain companies add additives and most produce a winter mix. The additives are not regulated and no standards exist. The term "premium diesel" has no meaning. 

Again, there is no difference between off road diesel and on road diesel except for the dye and the taxes.


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## dwrob

there is no differance in the fuel except for red dye. all diesel is low sulfur, i deliver fuelb and can tell you it is all the same. this whole thing was a tax generator. if it makes you feel better you can add marvel mystery oil to the fuel to lubricate the pump. all new fuel systems are designed to run on low sulfur fuel. good luck.


----------



## jdemaris

dwrob said:


> there is no differance in the fuel except for red dye. all diesel is low sulfur, i deliver fuelb and can tell you it is all the same. this whole thing was a tax generator. if it makes you feel better you can add marvel mystery oil to the fuel to lubricate the pump. all new fuel systems are designed to run on low sulfur fuel. good luck.


 
Not here in New York - at least, not yet. Heating oil is red and high sulfur. Farm and off-road diesel is blue and medium sulfur. Highway fuel is clear an ultra-low sulfur. This varies between areas of the USA.

The sulfur itself has nothing to do with the lube in the fuel. It's the process of removing the sulfur that destroys some lubricity and BTU energy in the highway fuel.

As for anybody that says ultra-low can't hurt a mechanical injection pump . . . how the heck would you ever know?? A rotary mechanical pump with good fuel can last 1,000,000 miles. If you lowered it's total life by 2/3, you probably would never know the difference. To compound the issue, how many people have new injection pumps to start with - for a "test" of any sort?? Keep in mind that so-called "rebuilt" pumps use most main parts, as-is, without renewing the wear surfaces. So, a newly bought "rebuilt" pump might already have 500,000 miles on most moving parts. If it fails - who are you going to blame?

CAV-Lucas-Bosch-Stanadyne all give minimum lube specs for proper longevity of their rotary mechanical pumps Ultra-low sulfur fuel does NOT meet those specs unless lube additives are put into the fuel after processing. Fuel sold at highway pumps is supposed to have to proper additives already in the fuel. So, much depends on how trusting you are. Using some two-stroke-cycle oil mixed with the highway-diesel is good cheap insurance if you're running anything with a mechanical pump -off road OR on-road, makes NO difference.


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## 2dogs

On road diesel was $4.30 this morning!


----------



## terryknight

i run 2 stroke oil 1oz ish per gallon in my diesels


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## 2dogs

Just to bump this necrothread into 2013 onroad diesel is $4.30/gallon. Up from $3.75 1 month ago.


----------



## saw dog

John464 said:


> done that too. low sulfur diesel has come into play recently and I have never put that in any off road equip. I have put on road diesel into off road equipment last year before most stations started carrying the low sulfur stuff and never an issue. Things may have changed like your saying since the latest low sulfur diesel emmision laws and just about all stations are now carrying low sulfur diesel. Im wondering if the off road diesel is also low sulfur?



Yes off road fuel is low sulfur, the same sa on road fuel.


----------



## saw dog

Hi all
The diesel lab I use tells me to use an additive in any engine built before 2008 due to lube problems w/ low sulfur fuel. A lot of people are having pump failures due this problem. I buy Stanidine 55 gal. at a time and use 8 OZ. per 30 gal in all of my older engines and so far have not had a failure. This gets expensive but beats the alternative, if you loose a pump it is not just replacement cost of the pump but cleaning the intire fuel system of metal particles so you don,t loose the new pump due to metal contamination. VW tells you not to use additaves in thier TDI engines but at the same time they are having a lot of pump failures, but so far they are not addressing the problem but blaming it to missfueling with gasoline. The labs that I have talked to about this problem tell me that most of the VW pump failure is due to lack of lube in the fuel with a small percentage of failures due to miss fueling. The cost of pump replacement and cleaning the fuel system on the VWs can cost as much as 7K dollars I am told if VW does not stand behind the pump failure. This problem with low sulfur fuel is going to get very expensive no matter how you address it, buying addative or replaceing pumps and cleaning fuel systems, but with out additives the latter can and will reacure. Hope this helps, so far I have not lost a pump, knock on wood.


----------



## bigv

I always add Lucas or Deutz Diesel additive. It adds lubrication to the pump, seems to make the diesel less likely to take on water, and seems to make a big difference when you pull the head.


----------



## dannyknapp

The OP may have been referring to additives to prevent gelling in cold temps. While service stations will put in additives when temps drop, you can run into trouble if you buy fuel when it's warm and attempt to start a week or two later when it's colder. you can usually find Power Service winterizer/antigel or Howe's at truck stops, both work fine. Running a mix of #1 (kerosene) and #2 diesel also works if your station offers it.


----------



## Griff93

terryknight said:


> i run 2 stroke oil 1oz ish per gallon in my diesels



I do this as well on my older mechanical pump diesels. Not that I won't have an issue tomorrow but so far I've not had any of the pump problems that people have experienced from ULSD.


----------



## 52farmer

I have been on site when on and off road fuel was delivered,both came out of same tanker only difference was red dye tablets added to off road tank.No difference in fuel.


----------



## capetrees

Off road tank? I just filled up a dumptruck and the fuel was red. I think off road is clear. And the new heavy machines call for ULSD in the engines. Just saw the sticker on a 2012 JD 544.


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## 52farmer

Well unless its different in MA than NY you put off-road in dump truck


----------



## greg storms

It'll take 4 or so tanks of clear diesel to eliminate the red dye that's used to distinguish off road in La. Don't get caught with red fuel in a highway use vehicle! Good Luck!


----------



## capetrees

I am wrong. The road fuel from the gas station was clear.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy

Here on and off road diesel is the same exact fuel aside from the tax. I can run on road fuel and fill out paperwork to get the taxes back or I can buy the off road, either way works out the same... buying off road is less hassle though.

The on road has road tax and some sort of state/local fuel tax. The off road doesn't have the road tax. And Fuel oil is "good" diesel at 3000+ ppm sulfur and no tax at all.

We normally run either the fuel oil or off road diesel in all the stuff, whatever happens to be cheaper. For a while regular on road diesel on the pumps was cheaper. This winter it got down to $2.70 a gal while fuel oil was at $3.65.

I filled my tank a few days ago, it was $2.79 for fuel oil, while off road was 2.89 and on road was $3.15. In any case talk about a quick way to spend $1000!

For a while the diesel were were getting was almost green, like close to Mtn Dew color, not sure how come. I've never seen it red though.


----------



## ApexTreeService

Bio diesel blend or 2 stroke oil (200:1) mixed with either FPPF or Opti Lube fuel additive is added to all my diesels with High Pressure Common Rail injection system (pre emmision years). All four were in the top performing slots of wear reduction in one popular study.


----------



## Jimma

can anyone explain this. I've got a 34 HP Diesel stump grinder. The oil cap was not secured properly and oil soaked the engine when I ran it for a while. I wiped away what I could and used a degreaser to wash away the rest. The next day I used it and it ran fine for an hour or so then began to smoke, (Black smoke). Today I figured some of the grease I dislodged may have clogged something up so I took a can of carburetor cleaner and spayed everything clean. When I started the engine later, holy smoke. Billows and billows of smoke. My first question is how did anything get into the engine to cause that smoke and the second question is, how do I stop it? It's slowed down a lot, but whenever there is a load on the engine, it starts to smoke more.


----------



## Woos31

Jimma said:


> can anyone explain this. I've got a 34 HP Diesel stump grinder. The oil cap was not secured properly and oil soaked the engine when I ran it for a while. I wiped away what I could and used a degreaser to wash away the rest. The next day I used it and it ran fine for an hour or so then began to smoke, (Black smoke). Today I figured some of the grease I dislodged may have clogged something up so I took a can of carburetor cleaner and spayed everything clean. When I started the engine later, holy smoke. Billows and billows of smoke. My first question is how did anything get into the engine to cause that smoke and the second question is, how do I stop it? It's slowed down a lot, but whenever there is a load on the engine, it starts to smoke more.


My first thought would be to check the intake and see if it drew oil into the air filter and also your fuel filter may be in need of change as either one of those can cause power loss, and possibly black smoke if air filter isn't allowing max air flow that's needed for a clean burn of the fuel during the injection events. 

I wouldn't think cleaning off the motor with degreaser would have caused the issues you mentioned without any other syptoms leading to this either. Meaning the gunk on outside of motor shouldn't be able to get in without you seeing major problems when it's running like hemorrhaging fuel or oil because that stuff couldn't/shouldn't be able get in motor otherwise, but stranger things can happen when Murphy decides to visit! (hopefully this is making sense cuz I'm as curious as ever of what could cause that scenario). Best of luck sir and let us know what ends up the culprit.


----------



## Jimma

It never crossed my mind, when it started smoking, that the degreaser was the cause. The air filter is no where near where the initial oil spill and the degreaser was used. The engine seems to run fine and there is no loss of power. I've used it for 6 hours of continuous running since it started. I did change the air filter and drained the fuel filter, but to no avail. The reason I connected the degreaser to the problem was that when I sprayed the carb cleaner on the engine where the oil residue was still visible from the degreaser, the smoke was unbelievable. It has since died down, but still continues. if it acts the same way it has for the past couple of days, when I put a load on the engine when I start cutting stumps, the whole neighborhood will go into a fog. The area hosts the turbocharger, but all the connections seem tight and I can't figure any area that would not be sealed off from outside air. Guess my next move will be to change the fuel filter. There may have been some debris in the fuel I got out of the filter when I bled the system the first time, unless the cup I was catching it in was dirty. Then on to the fuel injectors I guess. I just thought there might be something obvious that I was missing. I've been know to do some bone head stuff.


----------



## 250R

Is off road and home heating oil the same stuff?


----------



## FChenard

´


250R said:


> Is off road and home heating oil the same stuff?



It Depends, Here in canada we have mazout #1 and mzout #2. Mazout #1 is basicaly diesel with red dye in it it can be used to run tractors on farms and heating if you have an outside tank. #2 is used when you have an inside tank and used in tractors or farm equipements in summe time. #1 I beleive is the equivalent of off road diesel in US witch contain an additive that prevent it from turning to slush in winter times. #2 doesn't contain that additive. if you operate in southern US where the weather stys mild, i wouldn'd be stressed about using #2 all year long but don't get caught with that product in your equipements. Everything that you can drive on the road has to be fueled with taxed fuels including tool vehicules (chipper).


----------



## texican65

Yep...it's all ULSD now, no diff. I checked with the owner at a local station that sells both on/off road...comes from the same truck, same grade. I used to run the HIGH SULFUR in my 92 Cummins, then LOW SULFUR which was 500 ppm, and now all we got is ULTRA LOW, 15 ppm. Not enough lubricating properties for older mechanic pumps and fuel systems. I ve run STANADYNE in my tank for 10 years and never had a fuel issue. 

Dow


----------



## ChoppyChoppy

From what I've been told, fuel oil/heating oil is still high sulfur here.

I'm not sure. I run it in the equipment and no issues. 

I found a brand new old stock drum of 30 weight in the tweeds at the shop. My last fill up I put 10 gals of that oil in my tank (275 gal tank).


----------



## Bill G

Mowingman said:


> There is now no difference in on-road and off-road diesel, except for the red dye. In the past, off road diesel had a higher sulfur content. However, some time back the govt. put a stop to the use of high sulfur diesel. So, now they are the same, except for the red dye indicating that no highway tax has been paid on the off road stuff.
> Jeff



EXACTLY


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## Jhenderson

Per federal law, the only heating oil or diesel fuel produced and sold in the Unitd States in the last 4 years has been ULSD.


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## 2dogs

Diesel is creeping up towards $3.00 per gallon. Hard to find it less than $2.85.


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## ironman_gq

$2.38 for on road here, way better than the $5 it was a few years ago.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy

Jhenderson said:


> Per federal law, the only heating oil or diesel fuel produced and sold in the Unitd States in the last 4 years has been ULSD.



Dunno, I think the company we buy fuel from would know what they are pumping. They said it's 3000ppm sulfur.


----------



## 2dogs

Quite a few stations have diesel priced at $3.99/gallon! Costco is the best deal at $3.05/gallon but the price changes at least daily. You may know the state of Collyfornia just upped the diesel fuel tax by $0.20/ gallon November 1st. Gasoline tax went up 12 cents. Our vehicle reg "went" up January 1st 2018. My 2002 F350 is now $409.00/year.


----------



## Little Al

26newtreeguy said:


> So can I run the off-road diesel in my chipper. When it is running it running off road. But it being towand on the road. So is ok in MA to run off road diesel in the chipper!? thanks for any find back Carl


You should have no problems with running RED diesel in your chipper as it is not a self propelled unit even with it standing in the road to do It's designed job you should be able to use RED fuel it applies only to using non tax paid fuel on the road in a vehicle subject to requiring to use Tax paid fuel the diesel is more or less identical brew the on road has a few extra additives If you run a diesel with a mechanical fuel injection pump & no computer gizmo's adding 2 Smoke mix oil at a ratio of 200mili litres to 80 litres of fuel (sorry not into Imperial mes) will help as the sulpher content has been reduced older engines seem to run quieter/smoother with rather than without the oil using modern road diesel fuel


----------



## 2dogs

In California it depends on what kind of license plate you have. If it is the regular PTI plate you have to run clear road taxed fuel. If the plate is an SE plate you CAN run red dyed fuel but it is best to avoid the problems caused by uninformed CHP officers. It's like having a flat bed on your 3/4 ton pickup and towing a gooseneck dump trailer. DMV/CHP require a commercial license to drive your pickup truck but you can't get a commercial license in a pickup truck. Welcome to California. 

BTW there is no difference between red dyed diesel and clear diesel. Diesel is a "pipeline product" which means all diesel has the same specs. The seller can add dye or additives but there is only one base product. If I drive a few hours east I would be buying a winter mix diesel fuel and the driving home to 80 degree weather. (Just like winter blend gasoline for chainsaw mix, this has given USFS problems and burn victims.)


----------



## grizz55chev

2dogs said:


> In California it depends on what kind of license plate you have. If it is the regular PTI plate you have to run clear road taxed fuel. If the plate is an SE plate you CAN run red dyed fuel but it is best to avoid the problems caused by uninformed CHP officers. It's like having a flat bed on your 3/4 ton pickup and towing a gooseneck dump trailer. DMV/CHP require a commercial license to drive your pickup truck but you can't get a commercial license in a pickup truck. Welcome to California.
> 
> BTW there is no difference between red dyed diesel and clear diesel. Diesel is a "pipeline product" which means all diesel has the same specs. The seller can add dye or additives but there is only one base product. If I drive a few hours east I would be buying a winter mix diesel fuel and the driving home to 80 degree weather. (Just like winter blend gasoline for chainsaw mix, this has given USFS problems and burn victims.)


We ***** about California but you couldn’t get me to move east for all the tea in China.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Same here, I pay a lot to live here, but I love it here, so there, 
Jeff


----------



## Evan

On road and offroad is the same just a different color.

I run 2 stroke oil in everything that burns diesel . I even run 2 stroke oil in 4 stroke gas engines every ounce in awhile.

Ive ran red green and jp8 in my cummins with no difference


----------



## capetrees

grizz55chev said:


> We ***** about California but you couldn’t get me to move east for all the tea in China.


good with that

thanks


----------



## SmellyPirateHooker

Off road diesel isn't DOT taxed. So it's illegal to run on pavement. They dye the on road stuff so it can be checked by dipping the tank. You'll have no issues running off road or on road diesel.


----------



## SmellyPirateHooker

And yes you can have diesel in your chipper even if you are pulling it down the road. The chipper falls under trailer rules not vehicle rules.


----------



## 2dogs

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> And yes you can have diesel in your chipper even if you are pulling it down the road. The chipper falls under trailer rules not vehicle rules.



In Cali chippers and even some stationary engines that run on diesel like generators have to comply with the air resources boards and have a "green stickers" and use DEF. I have asked the Highway Patrol and DMV if a chipper can run red dyed fuel and nobody knows.

The state has numerous agencies (as do the counties) regulating "polluting" equipment. It seems every agency thinks it has the final word on things but even with thousands of pages of regulations you can't get a straight answer. Often, like where I live, trying to legally burn "slash" I deal with three counties, the state, EVERY local resident who could be affected by the smoke, and worst of all several local air boards full of unelected officials. CDF aka Cal Fire wants me to burn but it is sometimes not possible.


----------



## jefflovstrom

2dogs said:


> In Cali chippers and even some stationary engines that run on diesel like generators have to comply with the air resources boards and have a "green stickers" and use DEF. I have asked the Highway Patrol and DMV if a chipper can run red dyed fuel and nobody knows.
> 
> The state has numerous agencies (as do the counties) regulating "polluting" equipment. It seems every agency thinks it has the final word on things but even with thousands of pages of regulations you can't get a straight answer. Often, like where I live, trying to legally burn "slash" I deal with three counties, the state, EVERY local resident who could be affected by the smoke, and worst of all several local air boards full of unelected officials. CDF aka Cal Fire wants me to burn but it is sometimes not possible.



Run with the red dye, we do and we are the largest company in the US if you include landscape, we would not do it if it was illegal. We have CARB checking us all the time because we are so big, so just run it and don't worry.
Jeff


----------



## 2dogs

Asplundh? Davey?


----------



## jefflovstrom

2dogs said:


> Asplundh? Davey?



Brightview Tree Care Services, they became the largest when Brickman and Valley Crest merged a few years ago, 
Jeff


----------



## SmellyPirateHooker

2dogs said:


> In Cali chippers and even some stationary engines that run on diesel like generators have to comply with the air resources boards and have a "green stickers" and use DEF. I have asked the Highway Patrol and DMV if a chipper can run red dyed fuel and nobody knows.
> 
> The state has numerous agencies (as do the counties) regulating "polluting" equipment. It seems every agency thinks it has the final word on things but even with thousands of pages of regulations you can't get a straight answer. Often, like where I live, trying to legally burn "slash" I deal with three counties, the state, EVERY local resident who could be affected by the smoke, and worst of all several local air boards full of unelected officials. CDF aka Cal Fire wants me to burn but it is sometimes not possible.


Is Cali still part of the US? Lol anyway on/off road diesel has nothing to do with pollution, they both burn the same. Of course that state is all F'ed up and I wouldn't put anything past them


----------



## SmellyPirateHooker

And I quote 
"Off road diesel is designated only for vehicles and equipment that do not operate on public roads and highways" 
Operated on. Not transported.


----------



## mobilemech13

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> And I quote
> "Off road diesel is designated only for vehicles and equipment that do not operate on public roads and highways"
> Operated on. Not transported.


Because of no road tax. It's the same diesel, just has die in it. Engine makers don't know whether that engine is going in an on road or off road application, they don't make 2 different engines, 2 different fuel systems, or 2 different head set ups for on or off road engines.


----------



## SmellyPirateHooker

mobilemech13 said:


> Because of no road tax. It's the same diesel, just has die in it. Engine makers don't know whether that engine is going in an on road or off road application, they don't make 2 different engines, 2 different fuel systems, or 2 different head set ups for on or off road engines.


I know


----------



## sb47

Follow the money, off road fuel is the same as on road fuel, the only difference is one has a road tax attached to it and the other doesn't.


----------



## lone wolf

DDM said:


> I beg to differ.
> Ultra-low sulfur diesel was proposed by EPA as a new standard for the sulfur content in on-road diesel fuel sold in the United States since October 15, 2006, except for rural Alaska. California required it since September 1, 2006, and rural Alaska will transition all diesel to ULSD in 2010. This new regulation applies to all diesel fuel, diesel fuel additives and distillate fuels blended with diesel for on-road use, such as kerosene, however, it does not yet apply to train locomotives, marine, or off road uses. By December 1, 2010, all highway diesel will be ULSD. Non-road diesel transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2010. Locomotive and marine diesel also transitioned to 500 ppm sulfur in 2007, and to ULSD in 2012.
> 
> High sulfer Diesel also costs them less to produce as it doesnt have to be refined as much.


Whats a good additive?


----------



## mobilemech13

lone wolf said:


> Whats a good additive?


Trucks made in 2000 and after don't need additives, the engine manufacturers new the fuel standards were coming and developed their systems accordingly. If you're driving a diesel built between 82 and 94 1/2 then the systems have most likely failed and been rebuilt with better parts and a good additive for the older diesels is stanadyne lubricity and stanadyne performance additives.


----------



## lone wolf

mobilemech13 said:


> Trucks made in 2000 and after don't need additives, the engine manufacturers new the fuel standards were coming and developed their systems accordingly. If you're driving a diesel built between 82 and 94 1/2 then the systems have most likely failed and been rebuilt with better parts and a good additive for the older diesels is stanadyne lubricity and stanadyne performance additives.


I been putting some in my newer trucks will it hurt?


----------



## ChoppyChoppy

mobilemech13 said:


> Trucks made in 2000 and after don't need additives, the engine manufacturers new the fuel standards were coming and developed their systems accordingly. If you're driving a diesel built between 82 and 94 1/2 then the systems have most likely failed and been rebuilt with better parts and a good additive for the older diesels is stanadyne lubricity and stanadyne performance additives.



Never used any of the snake oils, have diesels ranging from mid 70s to a few years old.


----------



## jefflovstrom

lone wolf said:


> I been putting some in my newer trucks will it hurt?



Sea foam
Jeff


----------



## mobilemech13

ChoppyChoppy said:


> Never used any of the snake oils, have diesels ranging from mid 70s to a few years old.


They don't need additives to run and possibly for a long time. The stanadyne additives were developed to put some lubrication back in the diesel because the sulffer (lubricant) was reduced greatly.


lone wolf said:


> I been putting some in my newer trucks will it hurt?





lone wolf said:


> I been putting some in my newer trucks will it hurt?


it won't hurt. If the truck is newer than 2000, it's not needed


----------



## mobilemech13

jefflovstrom said:


> Sea foam
> Jeff


You have to be careful, diesel is dry, sea foam is a detergent cleaner, today's injection systems have fuel pressures of anywhere from 20,000 - 45,000 psi, excessive cleaner use can shorten the life of injectors. Injectors in today's diesels can range anywhere from $700 - $1800 per injector, plus time and parts for the R&R


----------



## lone wolf

mobilemech13 said:


> You have to be careful, diesel is dry, sea foam is a detergent cleaner, today's injection systems have fuel pressures of anywhere from 20,000 - 45,000 psi, excessive cleaner use can shorten the life of injectors. Injectors in today's diesels can range anywhere from $700 - $1800 per injector, plus time and parts for the R&R


I just bought a 2018 Ram w/Cummins . How is this supposed to regenerate? Park brake needs to be on? I know nothing about this?


----------



## mobilemech13

lone wolf said:


> I just bought a 2018 Ram w/Cummins . How is this supposed to regenerate? Park brake needs to be on? I know nothing about this?


All the trucks from 2012 and newer, go through a cleaning or regen process while you drive automatically. If it is stationary and has a lot of idle time, it'll do a cleaning in park idling. Park brake is not needed. There should be a message that comes up on the data display on the dash that says something like cleaning exhaust filter. When it's in the cleaning mode, you should try to drive it to complete the cleaning. If you stop and shut the engine off, it'll restart the cleaning when the truck is restarted


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## mobilemech13

lone wolf said:


> I just bought a 2018 Ram w/Cummins . How is this supposed to regenerate? Park brake needs to be on? I know nothing about this?


You don't need additives for the fuel either. The fuel system is built for the fuel standards of today's fuel.


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## Jhenderson

mobilemech13 said:


> All the trucks from 2012 and newer, go through a cleaning or regen process while you drive automatically. If it is stationary and has a lot of idle time, it'll do a cleaning in park idling. Park brake is not needed. There should be a message that comes up on the data display on the dash that says something like cleaning exhaust filter. When it's in the cleaning mode, you should try to drive it to complete the cleaning. If you stop and shut the engine off, it'll restart the cleaning when the truck is restarted



There is no message on a Ram during normal operations. That’s either passive or active regen.


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## lone wolf

Jhenderson said:


> There is no message on a Ram during normal operations. That’s either passive or active regen.


Will a Ram regen parked?


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## Jhenderson

Yes it will. That’s active, when adding fuel to raise temps in the filter comes into play. Additionally, in the case of a plugged dpf the dealer can initiate a prolonged regen but it requires a dealer scan tool as far as I know.


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## lone wolf

Jhenderson said:


> Yes it will. That’s active, when adding fuel to raise temps in the filter comes into play. Additionally, in the case of a plugged dpf the dealer can initiate a prolonged regen but it requires a dealer scan tool as far as I know.


I just got a 2018 Ram w Cummins and I dont know when it regens how or what to do? does the park brake have to be on like my Ford F750? How long can the blue DEF fluid sit in a tank before going bad?


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## Jhenderson

The truck will care for itself. You need to do nothing. Def should last a year if it’s under 100 degrees f.


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## lone wolf

Jhenderson said:


> The truck will care for itself. You need to do nothing. Def should last a year if it’s under 100 degrees f.


DEF prob is a year old the truck sat on the lot.


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## Jhenderson

Not likely it had any more than a gallon or so in it until it was prepped for delivery.


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## lone wolf

Jhenderson said:


> Not likely it had any more than a gallon or so in it until it was prepped for delivery.


Gauge reads 1/2 tank I suppose thats a few gallons ?


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## Jhenderson

The gauge is notoriously inaccurate. Tank holds seven gallons , give or take a little. When it reads half full you can fit just about 2 gallons in and it’ll read full.


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## VirginiaIron

osb_mail said:


> What kind on additive do you use in your chipper if you have to use on road diesel ?I heard that you should not run on road diesel if you dont use a additive is this true ?


I hear the onroad diesel is low/ultra low sulfur and the home heating oil contains some sulfur. The benefits of sulfur was lubrication of the IP. My old ford gets one guart of atf per tank every once in a while and it makes a world of difference more than any additive I ever used including dieselclean.


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## ChoppyChoppy

VirginiaIron said:


> I hear the onroad diesel is low/ultra low sulfur and the home heating oil contains some sulfur. The benefits of sulfur was lubrication of the IP. My old ford gets one guart of atf per tank every once in a while and it makes a world of difference more than any additive I ever used including dieselclean.



It's the same thing here, just one costs more because of road tax.

We run it in everything that doesn't have plates. New station opened in town and has a pump or have it delivered, all depending on cost.
Last 500 gals I bought was $2.58


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## ironman_gq

VirginiaIron said:


> I hear the onroad diesel is low/ultra low sulfur and the home heating oil contains some sulfur. The benefits of sulfur was lubrication of the IP. My old ford gets one guart of atf per tank every once in a while and it makes a world of difference more than any additive I ever used including dieselclean.



On and Off road diesel have been the exact same thing for several years now. I just had 250gal of #2 off road delivered and the slip said #2 ULS dyed diesel, it's the same thing as #2 on road with red dye in it


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## 250R

Where can a sample be sent for an analysis?


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## VirginiaIron

If I understand this correctly
The EPA reduced sulfur FROM as much as 5000ppm in:
1. Over the road diesel to 15ppm
2. Non-Road diesel to 500ppm

https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/heating-oil/


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## cedarhollow

i run #2 heating oil in all my tractors and in winter add some power service or cetane boost anti gel, never had a problem


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## VirginiaIron

Original post


osb_mail said:


> What kind on additive do you use in your chipper if you have to use on road diesel ?I heard that you should not run on road diesel if you dont use a additive is this true ?


I use #2 heating for off road use and i have not had a need for any winterizing additives.
I hear one should use an occasional additive in older diesel trucks for IP lubricity due to the ultra-low surfur content.


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## mrhemihead

VirginiaIron said:


> If I understand this correctly
> The EPA reduced sulfur FROM as much as 5000ppm in:
> 1. Over the road diesel to 15ppm
> 2. Non-Road diesel to 500ppm
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/diesel-fuel-standards/diesel-fuel-standards-and-rulemakings
> 
> https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/heating-oil/



I am in VA as well and the local dealer, who sells off road diesel, claims his supplier does not have the storage capacity for a limited use fuel.

Holtzman is his supplier...from their website, _*dyed ultra-low sulfur diesel for off highway use.*_


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## [email protected]'sTreeService

Ive always added a couple bottles 2 stroke oil per 25 gallons or so. Prime fuel filters with hydraulic oil when servicing.


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## mobilemech13

On or off road diesel, it’s the same fuel, off road just has red dye in it. They don’t make different fuel for on road or off road, not enough demand for off road fuel. The manufacturing cost would be astronomical to make different fuels. Then there is the engine manufactures that share on road and off road installs, how are they going to know the difference where the engine is going to be installed? It’s all the same fuel!


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## Screwbolts

osb_mail said:


> The problem is with using on road in off road motors .




Motors have cords and don't require diesel or any fuel at point of use, just an electrical outlet. Internal combustion engines require fuel of some sort. LOL

It is also my understanding that the only difference in Highly taxed road fuel and red off road fuel/home heating oil, is the dye to designate that it is from a non taxed pump. The sulfur content is the same, almost non existent. If you are running a fairly modern chipper on that has an engine that was built during or since the introduction of the low sulfur fuel it should be fine no matter what color the fuel is. 

Add Power server or one of the other snake oils to the fuel if it lets you sleep better with either, the taxed fuel or dyed home heating oil/off road diesel. We add power server to our farm fuel tanks and an outside fuel oil tank that is used to supply an oil fired water heater on the farm for the purpose of avoiding jelled fuel in cold temps.

Ken


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## TLG

On road fuels now days are less than 4ppm of Sulphur. Heating oils are not that low yet to my knowledge. If your running a tier4 or tier4interum engine you must use 4ppm of Sulphur fuel. Be very cautious when determining what you want to buy. Engine components are far more expensive than saving 50-65 cents per gallon as high Sulphur fuels will have detrimental effects on Tier 4 as mentioned. As also noted I've also seen several Cummins pop push rods on a run away at start up with fuel filters filled with auto trans fluids or hyd oils. Not recommended for sure!!


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## Screwbolts

I can assure you that I will never own a diesel powered anything that requires a computer to run the engine.


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## TLG

Wish I could say the same. Most machines have 5-8 computers and most sensors are Can Bused connected.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Screwbolts

I do understand, fortunately there is enough old stuff around to do everything I need.


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## TLG

Yes sir for sure. See if those Pioneers had fuel injection you wouldn't have to worry about those Reed intakes LOL!!

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## mobilemech13

TLG said:


> On road fuels now days are less than 4ppm of Sulphur. Heating oils are not that low yet to my knowledge. If your running a tier4 or tier4interum engine you must use 4ppm of Sulphur fuel. Be very cautious when determining what you want to buy. Engine components are far more expensive than saving 50-65 cents per gallon as high Sulphur fuels will have detrimental effects on Tier 4 as mentioned. As also noted I've also seen several Cummins pop push rods on a run away at start up with fuel filters filled with auto trans fluids or hyd oils. Not recommended for sure!!


Heating oils are different, on road and off road diesel are the same fuel as far as sulfur ppm, the difference is the tax and red dye.


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## Screwbolts

TLG said:


> Yes sir for sure. See if those Pioneers had fuel injection you wouldn't have to worry about those Reed intakes LOL!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk



Sorry for the thread drift. But I was never worried about those Reed valves. Lol I truly enjoyed bringing the old saw up to its top performance. I like engines and also have 2 Kamotsu engines in my herd. A 40 and a 62cc , both are from the Zenoah, line of RC engines. The 40cc was originally imported by Roush but it is a Kamotsu , I believe in 76. I forgot my pair of G23s, they to are Kamotsu/Zenoah engines, 23cc of reliability. 


Yes there many types of " heating oils " so one can hardly argue that heating "oils " are different , lol. I do know here in Central ny. The red fuel that fuels our off Rd equipment, AKA , farm tractor's loaders, skidders and farm trucks is the same red fuel that is pumped into our homes to fire a burner. It is entirely possible that in the state you reside there may be a difference in red fuels, but as for me i highly dought it. Now "heating oils" do vary greatly and there are several grades. The oil delivered to the school reguires heat to get it to even flow. So one would have to totally agree that there are many types of heating oil. But in the geographic area I live in, the red fuel is all the same.

Ken


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## TLG

Yes I drifted. I know Jo and sorry he is having Pioneer blues. Hoping you can help him out.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Jhenderson

mobilemech13 said:


> Heating oils are different, on road and off road diesel are the same fuel as far as sulfur ppm, the difference is the tax and red dye.



You’d better update your information. Most, if not all states require ultra low sulphur in heating oil. Been that way for years.


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## mobilemech13

Jhenderson said:


> You’d better update your information. Most, if not all states require ultra low sulphur in heating oil. Been that way for years.


You better check your info, kerosine and diesel are different sulfur requirements, hence why they don’t sell kerosine at a pump that can be accessed by automotive service.


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## mobilemech13

1-K kerosene is 0.04% sulfur content, suitable for wick fed, non flue connected burning systems, lamps, cooking stoves, etc.
2-K kerosene is 0.30% sulfur content, suitable for for flue connected burning systems, heaters, oil burners, etc. 
the is sulfur %#’s not ppm #’s. 
So yes it is vastly different that diesel ppm #’s


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## Jhenderson

What does kerosene have to do with home heating oil?


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## mobilemech13

That is what kerosene was originally made for, that was its purpose for being refined as, a heating oil.


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## Jhenderson

Its a distillate which is a very small fraction of heating products in use today. It’s not heating oil, which is what we’re discussing. Stop trying to justify your incorrect assertion about sulfur in heating oil using a totally different product. It only makes you look bad.


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## mobilemech13

Jhenderson said:


> Its a distillate which is a very small fraction of heating products in use today. It’s not heating oil, which is what we’re discussing. Stop trying to justify your incorrect assertion about sulfur in heating oil using a totally different product. It only makes you look bad.


You got it bud.


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## softdown

See meme


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## puzlrock

osb_mail said:


> The problem is with using on road in off road motors .


Got to pay taxes on the on "on road diesel, dyed diesel doesn't have road taxes. Other than that you can use either if you use the proper additives according to your temperatures. Use PRI-D additive if you want the best. Good Luck


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## puzlrock

mobilemech13 said:


> You better check your info, kerosine and diesel are different sulfur requirements, hence why they don’t sell kerosine at a pump that can be accessed by automotive service.


You can get kerosene at the pump at the COOP in Sand Point Idaho.


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## puzlrock

*When I was a kid we had 15-30 tractor that started on gas, warm it up and switch to kerosene, warm her up some more and get her to pulling and slowly cut the water to the carb, it really pulled then. Warm weather plowing only.*


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## Bill G

mobilemech13 said:


> You better check your info, kerosine and diesel are different sulfur requirements, hence why they don’t sell kerosine at a pump that can be accessed by automotive service.


I have no idea about sulfur content but the statement that kerosene is not sold from pumps accessible by autos is not true. We have it and many gas stations. There is one that uses the pump for kerosene in cold weather and then for cam2 or turbo blue race gas the summer. A lot of stations here have several pumps for off road diesel at the auto islands. Heck one even posts the price on the marque.


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## puzlrock

Jhenderson said:


> Its a distillate which is a very small fraction of heating products in use today. It’s not heating oil, which is what we’re discussing. Stop trying to justify your incorrect assertion about sulfur in heating oil using a totally different product. It only makes you look bad.


They used to make tractors that ran specifically on distillate, ran into that when I did a valve job on and international in 1961, valve stems were longer. Had to pull it all apart and get different valves.


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## Jhenderson

Distillate is any number of fuel types, not just kero. The U.S. Army installed distillate engines in many general purpose vehicles in WW2 and the Korean conflict. They all ran best on gasoline. If I remember correctly, they needed to start and come to operating temp on gas also.


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## Bill G

Jhenderson said:


> Distillate is any number of fuel types, not just kero. The U.S. Army installed distillate engines in many general purpose vehicles in WW2 and the Korean conflict. They all ran best on gasoline. If I remember correctly, they needed to start and come to operating temp on gas also.


Yes, and for many years the IH tractors and dozers started on gas and were switched to diesel. There were thousands of the TD series dozers that way. The 6,9,14,18,and 24


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## puzlrock

Bill G said:


> Yes, and for many years the IH tractors and dozers started on gas and were switched to diesel. There were thousands of the TD series dozers that way. The 6,9,14,18,and 24


The TD 25 also started on gas'. These were the dozers I cut my teeth on, they were actually really good, long running, hard working machines. Spent many many hours on them.


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## Bill G

I have never seen a TD25 that started on gas it must have been a very early one. I thought when the completely changed from the 24 to 25 the engines were.changed. learn something new everyday


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## puzlrock

Bill G said:


> I have never seen a TD25 that started on gas it must have been a very early one. I thought when the completely changed from the 24 to 25 the engines were.changed. learn something new everyday


Morning, it was in the late 50s- early 60s when I ran one. Big machine, except for having the Johnson Bar, it was the same as the smaller ones. Have a safe day!


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## puzlrock

puzlrock said:


> Morning, it was in the late 50s- early 60s when I ran one. Big machine, except for having the Johnson Bar, it was the same as the smaller ones. Have a safe day!


International introduced the new TD-25 250 Series in 1959, which was really just a slightly modified TD24. At the same time, Caterpillar shocked the logging world with the introduction of the D-8 46A, a powershift tractor that left International trying to compete against it with the gear drive TD-25 250 Series. International Harvester engineers rushed to produce a powershift model, producing the TD-25 Bin 1962,


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## Bill G

puzlrock said:


> International introduced the new TD-25 250 Series in 1959, which was really just a slightly modified TD24. At the same time, Caterpillar shocked the logging world with the introduction of the D-8 46A, a powershift tractor that left International trying to compete against it with the gear drive TD-25 250 Series. International Harvester engineers rushed to produce a powershift model, producing the TD-25 Bin 1962,


The old gear drive TD series was definitely a tough one to run compared to more "modern" dozers. I grew up on a 1949 TD9. It would do a ton of work. Later my brother bought a TD15B which was a much improved model, but that particular machine was a a pile of worn out junk. In the late 1980's I ran a local contractors JD750 then it was replaced with a new Case 1450. He died shortly after that. Now my brother has new Deere machines. They are a totally different machine. Growing up our neighbor was a operator from the late 1940's until he retired in the late 1980's. He had a lot of good stories. I always wondered how the Allis Chalmers HD16 with the self loading torque converter handled a down hill no-load situation. I asked him once and he simply said "not well"


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