# New Stihl climbing saw



## BigJohn (Feb 11, 2004)

Has anyone seen the new Stihl or had an opportunity to use one yet? It is still in R and D phase I guess. There are only three in the country.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Feb 11, 2004)

John, do you have any specs. on this saw?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 11, 2004)

Youll have to ask Chisholm, he's the posteboy, so has probably worked with it.


----------



## BigJohn (Feb 13, 2004)

The one I have is is in the test phase. It's a bit smaller and lighter. The on and off switch is now recessed and dose include the choke postion but does have a high idle posisition in its place. The choke is now back by the air cleaner. It also has a primer button. The gas and oil fill are both where oil fill usually is. Both the oil and gas tanks are see through. It has the light weight bar and I believe its a micro chain. I've use it two days now and I really like it. Its not the saw of choice for larger removals. I really like it for pruning. I usally hate haveing a saw with me but I didn't even notice it with me. Its as convient as a handsaw. It doesn't have the power of a 020 or 0200 but I feel for the size it has plenty. In my opinion it has a great feel of balance and precision. Definately the quality you would expect from Stihl. Oh yeah there not paying me to say that. From what I hear Mark doesn't one?


----------



## MasterBlaster (Feb 13, 2004)

You DO have to get used to the feel of the 200, but I wouldn't use anything else... so far.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *You DO have to get used to the feel of the 200, but I wouldn't use anything else... so far. *



Now that they want $500 for them, I'm not sure I'll agree with you anymore on that. I nearly went with the 335 when I paid $425 for my current 020.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Feb 13, 2004)

I paid $500 for mine 2 years ago.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2004)

Heck, my 385 cost me only $670. 

A 346 much costs less then the MS200. 

With the way my Silky cuts, I figure that when my 020 poops out, I won't be buying a replacement. 

The ms-200 is being priced out of the market IM(notso)HO.


----------



## tshanefreeman (Feb 13, 2004)

RockyJ...

I was wondering why you dislike the Stihl 019T (190T)? Yes it isn't the biggest saw, it does weigh slightly more than the 020 (200T), and it doesn't kick out as much H.P., but what's wrong with it?

I ask because I added a 019T (190T) to my fleet about 2 years ago and I actually like it alot. They are more cost effective than many of the other pro-saws and as long as you keep a good edge on your chain, they will cut as well as a 020T (200T) and 334/338 (IMHO). 

I know that there are those that swear by their 020 (200T) and 334/338's, but please make additional comments on the 019 (190T), for I think that you get a great saw for your dollar! I would like to hear not only yours but other users opinions as well.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2004)

Shane, compared to Brian's Echo the 19t is not worth the extra money.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Feb 13, 2004)

I have to agree with Rocky. If I had to do it again I wouldn't buy an 020T. The ergonomics don't bother me in the least. I just don't feel that all that power is necessary with a 12" or 14" bar. I am very happy with my Solo 633. I want the power on a saw like my PP7900 or my PP346. At nearly twice the price of an Echo 340 or the Solo 633, the 020T isn't worth it IMO!


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 13, 2004)

I agree with Rocky and Rich, the ergonomics of the 020t are absolutely the best of any saw, and the Solo totally is the worst saw on the market.
I must also agree with Rich that the 7900 is very bad and not as storng as the 346 (Husky or Echo).


----------



## MasterBlaster (Feb 13, 2004)

I guess I will allways want the 200 because I'm hooked on 16" bars. I've never really run a 14" bar on anything. I'm sure I would appreciate the additional torque (?), but I sure would hate losing the reach, or depth, more.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Feb 13, 2004)

Yeah, I remember you saying that earlier.

When I look at a 14" bar, it sure looks shorter to me, though.


----------



## Frans (Feb 13, 2004)

> Most climbers just want the brute force power because they do not use much finesse (IMO).


Rocky imagine you are taking down a big pine. The drop zone is clear, and you want to free fall branches...
What I do quite often in this situation is make the deepest cut I can on the bottom of a branch near the base, and then with my 020 I quickly cut the top of the branch on the opposite side of my first cut. When I make the second cut I do it quickly and with force I bury the bar into the cut without dogging it, and keeping up my chain speed.
the branch will pop off the tree. As it falls down to the ground it will be horizontal to the ground and land flat without bouncing off the tip and boomeranging into the house/garage/out of the drop zone area.
Rocky my question:
How do you do this with your "precision saw"? What, a Echo?
The 020 has always been my standby for the most powerful wreaking saw and I dont understand how you can say the saw has no place as a precise piece of equipment.

Frans


----------



## Stumper (Feb 14, 2004)

Tshane, I am one of the few around here who likes the O19T. While I often agree with Brian I have to disagree with his statement equating 019 ergonomics with the 020. I found them to be very different (The tophandle on the19T slopes down to the rear easing the the wrist crunching tendency that the 020 has in spades. The rear-swept front handle permits a different grip than any other saw I know of.) Saw preferences are very personal things but I chose the 019T becuse I liked it best-- the only disadvantage I found compared to the 020T is the extra weight. I also like the Echo 340 and will probably buy that next. I have never felt that the 019T or the Solo 634 which I sometimes use aloft are underpowered-keep 'em sharp!


----------



## Koa Man (Feb 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *A 16" Stihl runs a 55 link chain. A 14" Echo runs a 52 link chain. That equates to about a half inch difference in the chain loops. Stihl runs a 14½" bar and calls it a 16" bar. Before you jump to conclusions, you might want to actually look at the difference. Stihl has used that 'short bar' trick for years in order to mislead buyers. *



Poulan's and Echo's 16 inch bars are only 56 links. 1 link more than Stihl's. If Stihl's 16 inch bar is only 14.5 inch, then Echo's must be only 14.75 inch.

The ergonomics of the 020T don't bother me in the least, in fact I really like the way it feels. The two top handle Echos I bought lasted me less than 6 months before they were shot. The 020Ts last me at least 2 years. At that rate, using Echos would cost me $1000-1250 and Stihl $460 every 2 years. The 020Ts also has a significant power/speed advantage. I use 16 inch bars and don't call for a bigger saw until the wood gets over 15 inch diameter. But like anything else, everyone should use what they like and feel comfortable with. They are the ones using it and no one should belittle another person's choice.


----------



## geofore (Feb 14, 2004)

*brute force?*

I don't understand where brute force equates with a lack of finesse. A sharp chain on most saws is what makes the difference in the wood. What would I know, my saws are power ported, even the trim saws are modded. The saw has to feel right in your hands or it is not the right saw for you to use. You don't want to fight the saw, you work with the saw and control of the saw and comfort of use are a part of the game before you get to brute force issues. If your saw is uncomfortable do to the "I want brute force" you're headed for white fingers and tennis elbow some years down the road. If you have to force the saw through wood your chain isn't sharp or you're pinched in the wood. The "brute force" is not the issue, the ease of the flip of the wrist to finesse the cut is. The more powerful saws take less effort to make the faster cuts provided they have a sharp chain. If you are using brute force instead of finesse you're doing it wrong and your joints are going to let you know about it. Brute force is the racing saws arena where you push the saws for all they're worth and even that takes finesse to get it right (win).


----------



## SilverBlue (Feb 14, 2004)

I now have 6 HP 200T’s in inventory and it remains the tree saw of choice, no complaints here.Let’s see some pics of this new one.


----------



## Ax-man (Feb 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *
> The ms-200 is being priced out of the market IM(notso)HO. *



___________________________________________________

JP,

Do you remember what the" original square bodied 020's " used to cost. Those saws cost $600, pricey no doubt, compared to any other top handled saw they couldn't be beat by any other saw manufacturer during this saws time period.

I consider the present day MS 200 a bargain for the price. It has a little bigger engine, lighter than the original, and much easier handling and egronomics. The only kick I have against Sthil's 020 line since the original ones is they don't last as long. I have gotten at least 2x the life if not more from the original 020's compared to any thing that has come after it.

Does any one remember the article in Arbor Age a few years back where all the top- handled saws were tested in a consumer report type article. Sthil's 020 was rated no.1. If the same type of testing were held today I bet the results would still be the same.

MB,

Your not seeing things, a 16" in. bar is longer than the 14 ". Brian is measuring from the tip of the bumper spikes to the tip of the bar which is 14 1/2 in. But bars are measured from the stud to the tip. Husky is also misleading the public, their 16" in bar is only 14" if this were the case.

Brian,

You might want measure your 14" Echo bar, to make sure your getting a full 14 in. when you might only be getting 12 in. I don't know what kind of chain your using but 3 links of Stihls 3/8 ths low profile Picco = 1.5 in. not one half in.

Larry


----------



## bushman (Feb 14, 2004)

I like my stil 09 for for price and the ms200 feels much better than the 02o


----------



## Guy Meilleur (Feb 14, 2004)

My experience with the 019 is that they wear out early. That may have something to do with my maintenance, but I don't think so.

For me the 200t's ergonomics are fine, 2-handing or (gasp) 1-handing. Rocky I think your hand and arm may be built differently than many others, so if the 200t is hard to cut precisely with, it's a personal thing. 

To go from that personal experience to saying that because the 200t is so popular therefore 99% of climbers prefer brute force over precision is quite a leap. The kind of leap a "conservative" politician would make. 

Frans did not misquote you; he paraphrased five of your sentences into one, quite accurately I thought.

So anyway, when will we know more about the new Stihl?


----------



## murphy4trees (Feb 14, 2004)

This thread got sidetracked pretty fast.....
Guess that means no one else has been using the new Stihl...
As to the sidetrack... I like the Echo 340 and don't know if I miss the power of the 200, cause I never used one.....
If I ever get another bucket truck, the first next thing I'll do is buy a 200. 
Rocky have you ever used one in the tree..... I don't like the way they feel in the shop, but who knows for sure 'til I've used it for a couple of days in the trees...
One thing is for sure... no matter what saw, keeping the chain sharp will save a lot of wear and tear on both the saw and the crew.... Not to mention safer.....


----------



## protreecare (Feb 14, 2004)

I just bought a new 191T for $220. I use echos but bought the stihl because I thought I was getting a good deal. It is heavier than the echos, but i have not had a chance to use it yet. Does anyone use/like this saw?
Thanks


----------



## rbtree (Feb 14, 2004)

There's a couple guys here who like the 019, Stumper for one, I think. 
Personally, I've never used one but have no desire to use a heavy, underp owered saw. Buy an Echo 340 and open the muffler, it will have plenty of power. 

I don't like the ergonomics of the 200T either, but love the power..most of my 335's just don't cut as fast stock, and have a few problems....and my new 338 even modded wont beat a stock 200T. I do like a fast climb saw for many reasons...and may break down and get a used 200T at some time. Too pricey to buy new IMO.


----------



## BigJohn (Feb 14, 2004)

I agree with you all on haveing a sharp chain and forceing a saw. I have one coment on what Frans had said about jumping off those pine limbs. You don't have to cut those limbs fast to get them to come off clean. There is a technique I use and I will try to exsplain as best I can. I cut on a verticle and then come in on angle from behind. I never had one tear off using this method. You can cut as slow as you like and once you get to that point it snaps off clean. I've been feeling the tennis elbow myself here lately in my left elbow. I have no strength sometimes when flexing my hand up. I hope it goes away soon. As for the new saw I see it has its place. I understand there times you want a saw with a little more power and maybe just a little bigger bar. When pruning trees I believe this is the saw and even for those small take downs. I know it made a difference in my day. I was a break from my 020. I think as in all aspects of what we do we need to keep an open mind about new equipment and techniques. There alot of you who refuse to accept change. There are the guys who still say hooks don't damage trees, guys who don't use hand saws, and guys who think bigger, stronger is always better. 
My 020 currently has a bent bar and I refuse to put one of the Jap bars we have in closet on. I'm hopeing my boss breaks down and gets me an original Stihl bar light. I know from experience the arbor pro bar wont hold up long and I'll get the speech on how I just got that bar.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I guess I will allways want the 200 because I'm hooked on 16" bars. I've never really run a 14" bar on anything. I'm sure I would appreciate the additional torque (?), but I sure would hate losing the reach, or depth, more. *



Do you run full chisle on it too?

If not try it out.


----------



## tshanefreeman (Feb 14, 2004)

John Paul,

I am not sure/familiar with what you are referring. Could you please expand on the 'full chisle' concept. Thanks!


----------



## jamie (Feb 14, 2004)

*chain*

fulkl chisel chain, we use full chisels on all our saws except the new 385 and the 020/200s.

my boss was telling his thinking behind climbing saws, he used to use echos because of their price but when he went to replace one the price had rocketed and a sthil was only a bit more, so he made the change, as im the lowest climber in our squad i have the hand me down saw, seen 3 users and 3 years, its still going strong (well it can be a bit tempermental, the lead climber was a bit hard on saws and his maintenance was 'everyso often') and its just had a shiny new bar (make it look all nice)

im happy with it i find it ok to use and a carry around the trees

jamie


----------



## Greg (Feb 14, 2004)

An 019 was my first top handle saw, and it ran great for about 1.5 - 2 years of moderate use. Now it sits under the work bench collecting dust, it no longer has any power in the cut, and can't idle properly. A good throw away saw. I do like the ergonomics of the saw, it feels better than the standard handle set up, but I always found myself cutting with my left hand way back on the swept back bar, and I wonder if the chain brake would catch my wrist in the event of a kick back, it looked like it wouldn't.
Greg


----------



## rbtree (Feb 14, 2004)

kurtz, what mods did you do to allow full chisel on a mini saw? They take low pro, .370 gauge chain, so you'd have to change the sprocket, right? And I've not heard of chisel low pro chain.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Feb 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Rog,
> JP uses his chainsaw so little, he's talking about not buying another when his current one wears out. Kurtz ran a saw without a muffler for months. We aren't talking about people with a solid understanding of chainsaws and chains here. Neither of them are running full chisel chain on their 020T's.
> 
> I do not know how to phrase this post without sounding insulting. I'm not trying to be insulting. Just an observation that the people who spoke of running full chisel on a climbing saw don't know what they are talking about. If I'm being insulting by pointing out such a blatent and obvious mistake, then I guess I'm insulting. *




I am glad that someone cleared this up. I have never seen 3/8 Lo-Pro in full-chisel.


----------



## ORclimber (Feb 14, 2004)

I've given up on the 191T after killing 3 in the last 2 years. Two still run, but have broken cases. One is nearly new. If anyone wants them for parts, they can have them for the price of shipping.

I bought a 200 last week and so far it's a breath of fresh air.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Feb 14, 2004)

To get back to the heart of the matter, does this new stihl have a model number? Any idea when it will be available?


----------



## MasterBlaster (Feb 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ORclimber _
> *
> 
> I bought a 200 last week and so far it's a breath of fresh air. *



And a facefull of flying chips!


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 15, 2004)

Rocky, what stock combination of cutting systems would provide the fastest cutting times on an Echo 3400?


----------



## lawmart (Feb 15, 2004)

Paul this is of topic a bitt but you said that you have the new 
338 xp, how is it , do you think that they have solved all the problems with it, i have had 3 saws replaced under warrintie since '97, and got another one in '02, have used the echo but i find it vastley underpowerd, but very reliable, the 020 good power but the balance of the saw was not so great, 335 great balance was the best of all, but you now the history of the saw, 
I have 2 climber trainies in school and will need cilimbing saw in the spring (i do not supply climbing saw for them, only back up saws 2- 335) they are wating for that 338 to come avaible to them up here, what do you think, or anyone else you can give info.

Lawmart

playsafe


----------



## Gopher (Feb 15, 2004)

*To saw or not to saw...*

I purchased a Husky 338 (I have had a 335 for two years) in December. I wanted a back up for the 335. I used to own Stihl's, but have always had trouble with the shut-off switch. 

I have NEVER had my Husky's run on. NEVER. I asked someone that knows a certain someone brought up in this thread (a Stihl big boy) about his saw, and the Stihl he carries runs on and has to be choked to shut off as well.

Sorry guys, safety IS the number one issue with any saw. I am not the brightest "grear-head" out there, but I keep my saws clean and bring them in regularly for service. Until Stihl comes up with a saw that shuts off ALL of the time EVERY time, then I won't buy another one. My 036 is an awesome workhorse; I've had it for 11 years. It is on it's 4th switch, and no matter how often I bring it in to be tuned, it isn't bnut a short time later that I am "choking" it to turn it off.

I agree with JPS, though. I do more and more work with the hand saw. It has been colder than a witches you-know-what in a brass bra the past past month, and I find if I use the hand saw more, I stay warmer. More and more I am finding my ground guy asking, "don't you want your saw tied on?" And I usually reply, "Na, I think I can finish up here with out it."

Obviously, removals are a different story, but if we are doing the "proper" prune job (no huge wounds left), technically speaking, the hand saw should be adequate to make those cuts that shouldn't be more than 3" anyway. Right? Also, does anyone reach out with their chain saw wityh one hand? Yes, probably so. Well, then, maybe the hand saw is the better and safer choice of tools.

After I finish a couple of trees, and figure what I need for the job, I usually look back and see how many of the "tools" I had to pull out of the bag to complete the job. Ifno additional ropes were used, if the chain saw stayed on the ground, and if I didn't have to reset to reach the whole tree, then I really do not charge the full "boat". Sometimes the best tool is the one not used. Kind-of like the best word is the one not said.

Enough. Thanks again for the conversation fellow arborists.

Gopher


----------



## kurtztree (Feb 15, 2004)

Rocky I didnt run my chainsaw with a loose muffler for months only one day. And the place I get my chain I just go in and tell them I want full chisel chain for 020t . Ill delete the above post.


----------



## dbeck (Feb 15, 2004)

what does rbtree mean by open the muffler? What else would you have to do? Doesn't this lead to early failure? Thinking about a different saw, just hoping for some answers.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 16, 2004)

In order to meet new emission standards, most newer saws use smaller openings in the muffler. This restricts the flow of exaust and keeps more unburned gas from exiting the muffler.
In addition to polluting less, this makes the saw run quieter and cut more wood on a tank of gas.
The down side is that it makes the saw run hotter, which is hard on the saw. It also reduces the power because there is more burned gas left in the cylinder after the exaust port closes.
Many guys will order a muffler from an old saw which has larger openings or just take a drill to the muffler and make the openings about 125% the size of the exaust port.
This makes the saw run cooler, last longer and adds about 25% more power. 
There is a lot more information and pictures on the chainsaw forum.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 16, 2004)

And some saws have aftermarket mufflers availible that add performance.

The trend in new saws is to add displacement, so they can port it down and have similar hp to the older modles under the stricter CARB requirements. 

So people will buy them, and mod them so they can have a saw with even more power


----------



## TreeJunkie (Feb 16, 2004)

*Power Ported?*

So my question what is meant by power ported? Is this something anyone can do? What all do i need to do to my 200t to get the most power i can? Has anyone tried fuel additives for their saws. A gentleman in AZ was telling me a couple of weeks ago about additives, to my knowledge this wasn't a great idea w/ small engines. Any answers?/??????


----------



## Frans (Feb 16, 2004)

*???? What is the model # of this new saw?*

I called Stihl in Visalia and the folks claim they know nothing about this new saw.
What are the numbers /model name on it?
Frans


----------



## Lumberjack (Feb 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *The trend in new saws is to add displacement, so they can port it down and have similar hp to the older modles under the stricter CARB requirements.
> 
> So people will buy them, and mod them so they can have a saw with even more power *




Sounds like a win win to me!! 

Carl


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 16, 2004)

> We aren't talking about people with a solid understanding of chainsaws and chains here. Neither of them are running full chisel chain on their 020T's.




I run full chisle nonsafety chain on my 020. It's pointy where the top plate and the side plate meet.






semi chisel





full

I don't have the Stihl poart numbers here, but I just ask for it and they spin it up at Egglehoff's

So I guess Brian is the one who knows so little about what he's talking about.


----------



## Ax-man (Feb 16, 2004)

JP,

Brian is correct with his statement. You are also correct in saying you have non safety chain if it doesn't have that extra depth gauge to reduce kick back. If you have 3/8 Picco it is a semi- chisel, look at the back of the tooth, if it has a rounded corner it is semi-chisel, the front of the tooth can be decieving to look square. Picco chain also has a P stamped on the cutter. The only way an 020 could run RS (full chisel ) is if it was set up for .325, which I don't think is possible, if it can be set up this way it would rob the saw of power and cutting speed. If it was possible to run full chisel on an 020 climbing saw I'd have reservations about it because of the increased kick- back potential.

I'm going to futher confuse this full chisel off topic disscusion. 

Sthil has what they call RSK chain, this is what I would call full chisel. It looks like it has three cutting angles and requires a special file to sharpen it. I think this is the same chain in G. Beranek's book "Fundementals of General Tree Work " he refers to it as just chisel chain . This chain is best for bigger saws cutting big timber. I always wanted to try some, but finding the files for it aren't available in our area. If I'm on the right track here this full chisel would make Sthil's RS chisel chain, a semi-chisel.

I was over at our Sthil dealer today, asked about this new mystery saw. If Big John statement is correct about having the narrow kerf mini chain on it. it's going to be weak and under powered like the 19.

Larry


----------



## rbtree (Feb 16, 2004)

JPS and kurtz,

You'll have to post pics of your chain setup for us to believe what you are saying.
I will repeat, if you are running .370 low profile chain, you are not running full chisel. It is not made...period.

lawmart,

The 338 sucks. It has some weird intake setup that did not allow Dan to properly open the intake port. So, I have $550 in the saw, and it still won't outcut an 020, which my 335 would do handily when new...and only cost $120 to mod, by Walker's, who don't do as good or as much work as Dan, Dennis, Ken or our other builders. 

I'm buying another 338 Cali to replace the one I lost, adding a bulb to the carb, as the housing has a cutout for it, and having Dan mod it. That should really cut, with the added 7 cc. That saw can be bought at Bailey's-- baileys-online.com

No comments on the bare head, Trav is only a few feet up, and just climbed up for a pic...We called this tree and the one I'm in "Octopus trees" Amazing they survived the topping 20m some yrs ago....


----------



## Stumper (Feb 17, 2004)

Has anyone tried the run of skip 3/8 low profile that Carlton made? I thought about ordering some. Now if I could just find a 27" bar for the 019T......


----------



## Frans (Feb 17, 2004)

*New STihl Climbing Saw?*

Regarding this new climbing saw...
I spoke with the West Coast Stihl rep. (Randy West) who said he never heard of any climbing saw in R&D. He said it may be possible that Germany is working on such a saw but that in any case the process takes 2-4 years at least before any sales start. I will see him at TCIWest and talk to him more about this
Frans


----------

