# Which rope to buy? (yeah, another rope question)



## esshup (Jul 21, 2012)

There are a lot of storm damaged trees on a property that I've been asked to clean up. The property owner wants me to take down any blown out tops, branches that are hanging up in tops of trees, etc. This is in the woods, no structures around. I'm too old and fat (more fat than old tho) to be climbing, so I'll be using a throw rope to get a larger rope over the broken branches.

If the tree is really damaged, then the whole thing is coming down. The trees are mostly Oaks and Maples. I have a John Deere 4720 with grapple bucket that can be used to pull with.

I'd also like to use the rope for putting pressure on trees to help them fall in a certain direction when notching and wedging is iffy to get the tree down where I want it to fall (if needed). I rarely need to use one for that in the cutting that I do, but it would be nice to have that tool available.

None of the trees are over about 80' tall.

With that said, what strength, length and brand name/type of rope should I be looking at? What/how should the ends be treated or finished to minimize wear or abrasion? There's nobody local that I could buy it from, so it'd have to be ordered. I know of Bailey's, Sherill and WesSpur. Is there any other supplier that I should look at?

I did a search, and read a lot of threads on different ropes, but don't know which one to go with.

It will NOT be used for any type of climbing, strictly for helping direct fall and pulling down widowmakers.

I'd rather buy something that is over rated for my usage than to get something that is barely "good enough". While I like buying cheap, and saving money, I realize this is not an area to scrimp and save on, and don't mind spending the $$ to buy one that will last a while if treated right.

You guys have really helped me make informed decisions in the past, and I really appreciate that! (Dolmar 7900, chain sharpener, cant hook, chaps, Mingo Marker - I never knew those existed, and I forget what other stuff you helped me spend my $$ on.  )


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## spidermonkey17 (Jul 21, 2012)

well not to be a complete jackass when saying this, i think you are not thinking about this correctly. YOu want to get the widow makers out and clean up storm damage, but you don't want to climb? There is a reason why they are called widow makers. If you want to get those widow makers down then you are going to need a throw line with a throw bag on it i like the 10oz weights and then if its a good distance up there then you are looking at getting a sling shot on a 8ft pole and shooting the throwbag/throwline then once its set you are going to need to run that rope up there and go from there. But if the widow maker won't come out or is stuck then what are you going to do? Just asking ? Drop the whole tree? Suggestion for you is find yourself a contract climber let him/her get all the widow makers out and the stuff you can't get safely and go from there. 

Looking at rope a three strand is the cheapest but if you look at any of the companies rigging ropes you can make a decsion what size and length you want. Here is a good rope for what you are looking to do with it. Set the line running bowline to the tree, bowline on a bite to the tractor and good to go.

Yale Dynasorb Energy-Absorbing Rigging Line, 1/2" : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment


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## avalancher (Jul 21, 2012)

spidermonkey17 said:


> well not to be a complete jackass when saying this, i think you are not thinking about this correctly. YOu want to get the widow makers out and clean up storm damage, but you don't want to climb? There is a reason why they are called widow makers. If you want to get those widow makers down then you are going to need a throw line with a throw bag on it i like the 10oz weights and then if its a good distance up there then you are looking at getting a sling shot on a 8ft pole and shooting the throwbag/throwline then once its set you are going to need to run that rope up there and go from there. But if the widow maker won't come out or is stuck then what are you going to do? Just asking ? Drop the whole tree? Suggestion for you is find yourself a contract climber let him/her get all the widow makers out and the stuff you can't get safely and go from there.



horse pucky. So you throw a line up in the tree, and for one reason or another you cant pull it over or down, so then you got to either leave the rope or cut the whole tree down?Nonsense. I have done plenty of climbing, and if there is a known hazard in a tree, I will opt to pull it down every time from the safety of the ground if possible rather than climb up after it. The mere weight of a climber moving around in a tree can dislodge a widow maker.

There are a thousand ways to rig a line that will allow you to pull your line loose in the event that you cant free the hanger, from multi point tie ins, etc that will allow you to pull your line free.

To the OP. What you want is a bull rope, not a climbing line. Climbing line will work just fine for pulling, but the minute you use that rope to pull anything it then becomes a bull line since you should never trust a climb to a rope that has been used for anything else. Generally speaking Bull rope is a little heavier to pack around, made of more durable material and less prone to furring up with use, and has a higher working load. Watch the sales at Baileys, and often you can pick up a 100 foot length for less than $100. 
We use this bull rope all the time, and have good performance and long life out of it.
Bailey's - 9/16" BlackMAX DB Yellow Bull Rope


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## esshup (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks Avalancher. I have a throw line, plus weight. That's another thing that I learned from here. It works great. I did have a rope that my bro-in-law gave me, but in trying to pull down one of the widowmakers, it snapped with the sound of a .22lr.

It definately wouldn't be used for climbing, for the above stated reason. I was even thinking of going one step beefier and was looking at the Amsteel ropes. I wasn't sure what the breaking strength of the rope was that I was using, and didn't know if the 11,000 pound rating would be enough after it's been stretched a couple of times.

I was probably going to buy 150' of it just to be on the safe side - distance from the tree wise.

Weight for packing it around isn't a concern, I wouldn't have to pack it more than 100' from the tractor.


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## rwoods (Jul 21, 2012)

esshup said:


> Thanks Avalancher. I have a throw line, plus weight. That's another thing that I learned from here. It works great. I did have a rope that my bro-in-law gave me, but in trying to pull down one of the widowmakers, it snapped with the sound of a .22lr.
> 
> It definately wouldn't be used for climbing, for the above stated reason. I was even thinking of going one step beefier and was looking at the Amsteel ropes. I wasn't sure what the breaking strength of the rope was that I was using, and didn't know if the 11,000 pound rating would be enough after it's been stretched a couple of times.
> 
> ...



I'm no expert but with a 4000# tractor I would want at least a 7/8" to 1" bull rope. A little use, a little age and a little momentum with your tractor will leave a 11,800# breaking strength rope marginal IMO. If you were just going to preload a tree for falling, I wouldn't be too concerned but I take it that you will be do a fair share of snatching. Ron


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## Steve NW WI (Jul 23, 2012)

3/8" Amsteel Blue. There's a reason it's called winch line and not bull rope. It's not gonna break with your tractor unless it gets cut. I pull on mine with a 10,000 lb, 70HP tractor, and I'll spin it out before the line will break. I paid Sherrilltree to put an eye on each end, they know more about splicing and such than I ever want to know.

Also, get a good heavy pulley and stout straps to attach it to a tree. When pulling those widowmakers down, use the pulley even if you have a straight shot. It will keep your pull straight behind you instead of up, taking weight off the tractor. Here's what I've got:

Heavy Duty Stainless Steel Pulley by CMI, 5/8" : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment

Remember, your line is only as strong as the weakest link. I use these at each end. Screw in won't lose a cottor pin in the brush.

Clevis Screw Pin, 3/4 in. dia. - 0268072 | Tractor Supply Company


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## rwoods (Jul 23, 2012)

If you are snatching you need something that has some stretch. Otherwise you going to break something if the tree doesn't give. Ron


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## rwoods (Jul 23, 2012)

The rule of thumb for snatch straps (aka recovery straps) is a tensile strength of 2 to 3 times the gross weight of the pulling vehicle. Less and you'll break the strap/rope. More and you break something else because you won't have enough elasticity. Winch line - steel or synthetic - is for static loads and should not be used for snatching. Ron


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## Steve NW WI (Jul 23, 2012)

Ron, there's nothing wrong with your statements. I'm not a believer in jerking, snatching, or what have ya. I've broken too many things back in my younger and dumber days that way.

If I hook onto something, the proceedure is pull out slack, throttle up a bit, and go. Whatever is on the other end either cooperates or I dig a pair of 18" wide holes.


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## esshup (Jul 23, 2012)

Steve, you and I think alike. I prefer to take out slack and pull - I think there's too many chances of something going wrong if you try snatching. Let me rephrase that to - when I try snatching. I've had things go wrong snatching too - had a right rear door on my Suburban replaced when the snatch strap and large "D" ring held but the chain didn't that was wrapped around the bush...... 

Using the pulley, how would I attach the rope to the branch up in the tree? I was just planning on looping the rope over the branch and attaching both ends to the grapple bucket, then backing away. Hmmmmmmmm On second thought, lemme look for a double pulley, or just use 2 pulleys?

This tractor is pushing 6,000# too - 2009 JD 4720 w/enclosed cab, FEL and 900# counterweight. 66hp Since this is 4 WD, I'd be digging 2 pairs of holes.


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## Steve NW WI (Jul 23, 2012)

I use the threaded clevises I mentioned earlier. Use the throw rope to get your line over the branch, hook the eye in the end of the rope through the clevis, then run the clevis back through the rope. Sound clear as mud? Maybe this chicken scratch will help:


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## RAMROD48 (Jul 23, 2012)

I think your trying to do too much with 1 rope.


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## Steve NW WI (Jul 23, 2012)

Del, I appreciate your way of thinking, and I know where it is coming from. My way of doing things comes from a life of being around heavy machinery, not climbing trees. I'll use what I mentioned, because I know them and also know what makes them fail. Perhaps that makes me wrong, but it's gonna take some convincing before I do anything different. Me using clevises goes back to when I used straps almost daily pulling stuck machinery out. Bowlines do not tie well in an 8" strap. 

To the use mentioned by the OP, notice he said that the whole tree would come down if needed. In my mind, the hangers and widowmakers are not horribly large that he's trying to get on the ground. Maybe my ASSumptions are wrong.

(I did already mention the pulley, just for a different "why" than you.)


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## esshup (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with the re-direct pully. That's one of the good reasons that I'm here - the wealth of information that is here, helping me to NOT hurt myself, plus how to do things correctly.

I just got off the phone with Sherill Tree and they agreed that the Amsteel was the route to take, along with the re-direct pully. I also learned what a Timber Hitch is. 

The stuff isn't cheap, but I like the safety factor that it provides.


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## rwoods (Jul 23, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Ron, there's nothing wrong with your statements. I'm not a believer in jerking, snatching, or what have ya. I've broken too many things back in my younger and dumber days that way.
> 
> If I hook onto something, the proceedure is pull out slack, throttle up a bit, and go. Whatever is on the other end either cooperates or I dig a pair of 18" wide holes.





esshup said:


> Steve, you and I think alike. I prefer to take out slack and pull - I think there's too many chances of something going wrong if you try snatching. Let me rephrase that to - when I try snatching. I've had things go wrong snatching too - had a right rear door on my Suburban replaced when the snatch strap and large "D" ring held but the chain didn't that was wrapped around the bush......
> 
> Using the pulley, how would I attach the rope to the branch up in the tree? I was just planning on looping the rope over the branch and attaching both ends to the grapple bucket, then backing away. Hmmmmmmmm On second thought, lemme look for a double pulley, or just use 2 pulleys?
> 
> This tractor is pushing 6,000# too - 2009 JD 4720 w/enclosed cab, FEL and 900# counterweight. 66hp Since this is 4 WD, I'd be digging 2 pairs of holes.



Glad to hear your methodology. My attention was with the pulling down of widow makers with a compact utility tractor; there is only so much force you can assert so the temptation is to magnify it with momentum. As you both are apparently aware, snatching is dangerous enough without throwing in a tree that you might break off and launch a small missle at yourself.

Speaking of pulleys, I doubt it will work with AmSteel but years ago I fashioned several double pulleys using sheaves and large clevises. It sure is nice to be able to pull out of the line of fire. 

Ron


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## ShaneLogs (Jul 24, 2012)

Amsteel has some really nice rope! good price too! Check them out sometime.


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## esshup (Jul 25, 2012)

Well, I thought overkill was better than underkill, so I bit the bullet and ordered a 150' hank of 3/8" Amsteel. Found some that had an abrasion sleeve over one end and thimbles on both ends. Pulley is on it's way too. 

We had another bad line of t-storms come thru today. We only got a couple of hours cutting in before they blew thru. I'm glad that we made it back to the house. After the storms cleared out, we went back to the property, but couldn't get thru. There was an 8" dbh maple tree dropped across the only road to the property. I pulled over to get out the saw to clear the road, but my nephew said he didn't think it was a good idea because the top of the tree was supported on the electric lines. I think he was right, so we turned around and went back home. Tried going back 4 hr later, but the tree was still there. Heard on the news tonight that 8 hangars at the local airport were trashed, along the the planes in them. Plus cell towers and the 911 tower in the county seat were folded over as well.

We'll try again in the morning.


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## rwoods (Jul 25, 2012)

Sounds like your plate is full. Have fun and be careful. Ron


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## esshup (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks!

We were able to get to the property and there were at least 20 more trees down. 24"+ Oaks and maples uprooted and snapped off. I'll take pics tomorrow (well, today).


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## esshup (Jul 30, 2012)

Update:

I misspoke in the previous thread. I didn't order the 3/8" Amsteel, I ordered the 1/2" 150' long hank.

Here's a few pics from the mess:
10" Dia River Birch folded over by an Oak 





Nephew looking at 24" dia Oak stump and rootball that fell back in the hole.





Big Red Oak









Path thru the woods by the "straight line winds"


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## Steve NW WI (Jul 31, 2012)

Congrats on the rope and the score! Just remember to keep the rope as clean as possible, and out of the dirt. Dirt embedded in the rope fibers will gnaw away at it.

If you didn't already, look into a rope bag. I got the cheapest one I could find, and while it works, it's pretty, well, cheap. I'd get a Rope Boss or other higher class bag if I did it over. Just feeding the rope into the bag when you're done and letting it coil itself as you go is worth it over trying to coil a long rope by hand. I keep my rope, clevises, tree strap, and pulley in there, and my throwline and bag in the side pocket. Everything in one place, nice and neat.

That area looks a lot like where I was cutting up north last fall, only with bigger timber. Be careful around all the stored energy in those trees, and with the size you're dealing with, you'll have a lot of wood no time flat.


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## ShaneLogs (Jul 31, 2012)

esshup said:


> Well, I thought overkill was better than underkill, so I bit the bullet and ordered a 150' hank of 3/8" Amsteel. Found some that had an abrasion sleeve over one end and thimbles on both ends. Pulley is on it's way too.
> 
> We had another bad line of t-storms come thru today. We only got a couple of hours cutting in before they blew thru. I'm glad that we made it back to the house. After the storms cleared out, we went back to the property, but couldn't get thru. There was an 8" dbh maple tree dropped across the only road to the property. I pulled over to get out the saw to clear the road, but my nephew said he didn't think it was a good idea because the top of the tree was supported on the electric lines. I think he was right, so we turned around and went back home. Tried going back 4 hr later, but the tree was still there. Heard on the news tonight that 8 hangars at the local airport were trashed, along the the planes in them. Plus cell towers and the 911 tower in the county seat were folded over as well.
> 
> We'll try again in the morning.



Congrats on your new Amsteel rope! You will love it!


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## esshup (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks guys. I like the Amsteel already. I didn't realize how long 150' is! 

I hear ya on the stored energy. Anything that is under tension or stress I cut and let my nephew limb and cut to 12' pieces.

You're right about the amount of wood that is generated. The property owner told me to just cut it and leave it, but I just can't. I'm making a pile for him, and a pile for me.

I ran thru a gallon of gas in the 7900 before noon today just dropping dead trees. I think I dropped around 30, and one needed the 32" bar instead of the 24" one. This area is around a pond, so all the branches need to be cleaned up. There's a LOT of them 'cause the trees died a year ago. 

I have a bunch of friends coming over the end of next week and I was hoping to have it all cleaned up by then. It'll be a push to get it done.

If you had a choice of 2 Oak Trees, one white and one red, which one would you take and why?

Steve, I saw those bags and was wondering if it was worth it. Right now I'm putting it in a 5 gallon bucket.


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## stihly dan (Jul 31, 2012)

White oak has more heat in it, but red oak is real easy to split. Funny you should ask that question. People that know me always ask why I put effort into knowing which tree is which and how they rate for firewood. I tell them your exact scenario.

Have the friends help pile up the branches for you, then have a nice bon fire by the lake. Wisky in one hand beer in the other.


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## rwoods (Jul 31, 2012)

esshup said:


> Update:
> 
> I misspoke in the previous thread. I didn't order the 3/8" Amsteel, I ordered the 1/2" 150' long hank.
> 
> ...



That red oak is the size tree I like the best - plenty of wood & fun cutting.



esshup said:


> If you had a choice of 2 Oak Trees, one white and one red, which one would you take and why?



For outdoor lumber projects and fencing - white oak. Inside projects - red oak. Firewood - either one but IMO red oak is easier to split by hand. 

A very rewarding chore you have there. 

Here is mine: 47' to the first branch




View attachment 246903






View attachment 246903
[/ATTACH]View attachment 246905


Ron


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## esshup (Aug 1, 2012)

Dang! That's a big tree. Thanks for the info. That must have been fun getting out of the woods!


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## rwoods (Aug 1, 2012)

It is still there. Already bucked but waiting on a younger back and/or cooler weather. Ron


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## ShaneLogs (Aug 1, 2012)

That is a pretty big tree Rwoods, Putting the Mac to work there I see ? Love you equipment. Rep sent.


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## esshup (Aug 1, 2012)

Brought some home yesterday: 12' x 81" bed on the trailer. Electric brakes too.


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