# Splicing eyes - from the Knot Question thread



## mikecross23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Brian,

What kind of splice to you recommend for 16 strand double braid climbing rope?

-Mike-


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 9, 2003)

Neither Samson or New England have the arbo rope eye splice listed online.
Everyone uses basically the same splice for arbo rope, with the exception of the Fly. I can email you the instructions for Samson Blue Streak which is the identical splice as New England's but the instructions are easier to read.

I also have the New England instructions for Safety Blue and Hi-Vee but it's a 3+Mb file and practically identical to the Samson instructions.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 9, 2003)

*Splice Directions*

These are the directions Brian speaks of:

http://www.samsonrope.com/pdf/BLUESTREAK SPLICING.pdf

This is the basic technique that most people use for New England Ropes Braided Safety Blue & Hi-Vee, Yale XTC, Samson BlueStreak, Buccaneer ArborBoss/Patriot, and the many other fine 16 strand climbing lines.

Bury deep and with long smooth tapers!

love
nick


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## mikecross23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Thanks Brian and Nick for the website link. I'm having trouble understanding the lingo. 

#4... Tapering end of rope.
a. pull out marked strand pairs from braid. (don't cut)

b. tape end of cover tale & attach fid to tapered end of rope.

No comprende maaannnnnnn!


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 9, 2003)

Easier to show someone than explain it. Basically you want to pull out the marked strands from the end of the rope back to the mark, leaving the rest of the strands intact.
I had a hard time understanding a lot of the terminology too at first. I poured over the splicing sites and read ALL the different splicing instructions- trying to make the splice in my mind. I think I made a satisfactory eye splice in arbo rope on my third try, about 2 weeks after my first attempt. 
Try not to get too frustrated with it. Go back to the New England site and read over the different splices so you get a better feel for the terminology. Lovey Nick might have some other splicing sites with illustrations also, or better advice.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 9, 2003)

*Splicing is fun....right?*

Mike-

Regarding "a. pull out marked strand pairs from braid. (don't cut)"

The directions don't want you to cut the strands just yet. If you do, those evil things will begin to unravel. It is best to leave them, proceed with the rest of the splice, then when you are doing the bury, cut each of the pulled strands the moment before each one is to be sucked in to the hollow of the rope that you created by pulling out the core strands.

And for "b. tape end of cover tale & attach fid to tapered end of rope."

The rope you are splicing has 16 strands in it (I hope). You pull out ten of these strands to make the taper. The directions are telling you to tape/attach the taper to the fid so that you can push/pull the taper into the hollow of the rope. Some fids have special ways to attach the taper to the fid so that taping won't be necessary.

That should get you going a little bit. Let us know if you need some more advice.

love
nick


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## mikecross23 (Feb 9, 2003)

Thanks for the translations fellas! I'm sure I'll have more questions!


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 9, 2003)

What I've done after pulling the 10 strands is to tie them in pairs with a half hitch about an inch or two out from the rope. Then I cut off the excess past the knot. This gets a lot of extra crap out of my way while messing with the bury yet still keeps the strands from unravelling further.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 9, 2003)

*I dread the dread*

Like 165, I get annoyed by having that mass of dreadlocks dangling from my work. I just cut all the pulled strands, leaving them about 8" long...enough that they won't back in and unravel. I do the same with the core strands...cut most of it off so I don't have to deal with it. But be careful...cut too much and you'll be in trouble when you try to finish the splice!

love
nick


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

Alright, I finished my first splice on the end of a 50' lenght of 
hi-vee. Came out pretty good considering this was a spontaneous decision. Thanks Brian and Nick. I'm going to do it again 2 or 3 times before attempting on my life line. 

I used a coat hanger for the fid, but that had a sharp edge that kept breaking fibers of the rope. I need to buy or find something that isn't sharp and jaged like the coat hanger. 

Also I had trouble getting the pull strands to overlap with the core strands at about 24" up from the tip of the splice. I pulled some of the core strand out from where the fid was inserted in the rope allowing more room to milk the pull strands letting them overlap the core strands. 

When I was pulling the first ten strands, I pulled them all the the same spot on the rope. The bury spot at the top of the tear drop shaped eye splice is messy b/c I cut the 10 pulled strands off all at the same time. That made a big wad that got stuck just before being completely buried. 

I think I did pretty good for my first splice, but if anyone can relate to my imperfections, tell me how to over come them! 

Thanks,
-Mike-


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

Bend the end of your coat hanger over with a good pair of pliers, then tape the sharp end tightly to the side of the hanger so it doesn't snag when pulling back.

The 10 strands do not all get cut back to the same point. Re-read the directions carefully. when the strands are pulled, you should have 5 pair, each pair about an inch apart. 
Something I tried on my last splice that made the bury easier- I taped each strand before cutting it, leaving about 1/8" of tape around the tip of the strand after cutting. Then I carefully tucked the cut strand inside the rope so it wouldn't snag when pulling it in on the bury. I got the idea from the final picture of the single braid eye splice (tuck) instructions on the New England site. The butt end of a 3/16" saw file works great as a poker.

Sounds good, Mike. Try it again tomorrow night when you are fresh, it should go easier next time.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

I'll let ya'll know how it goes tomorrow. Thanks for the tips.

-Mike-


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

One more thing before I start tomorrow. What are ways you guys pull the core out of the rope w/ out damaging rope fibers. Brian you said to bend the end of the hanger over and wrap w/ tape. Is there a way to fish out the core w/ the hanger bent over and taped.

How do I neatly spread a hole in the rope to insert or remove core strands, pull strands, or the fid?


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

I've been bunching up the cover by pulling out some of the core and then using the butt end of a chainsaw file to dig the core out. Nick or others may have a better method.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 10, 2003)

*Getting out those core strands*

To get those core strands out without messing up the cover, you need a tool. The first one i used was a nail. I sanded (starting at 400 grit, then working to 800 grit) a smooth tip on the end of the nail. It was no longer sharp at at, and had no burrs that could snag the strands. Imagine if you had a wooden pencil, used it until it needed to be sharpened really bad..that's how dull it should be. You can use this to scoot the strands over and make an opening, then reach the nail in there and scoop the strands out.

If you wanna go all out (kinda) you can go buy a scratch awl at the hardware store (maybe 5 dollars) and sand it in the same way. Some say it's better if you sand it so there is a bit of a flattened tip, like a tiny screw driver, but i prefer a dull, smooth point.

Come to thing of it, you could probably sand a broken off piece clothes hanger to make the same thing. Just make sure it's smooth!

Also, for what it's worth, this is a chart that shows how many core strands there are in each of these ropes:

NER BSB: 9, plus marker thread and label ribbon
Yale XTC: 12
Buccaneer ArborBoss: 6
Samson BlueStreak: Never spliced it....anyone know?

Mike- for your coat hanger fid, are you using a hanger folded completely in half, or do you use a single piece with a loop formed in the eye. With the whole thing folded in half, there should be no sharp edges to catch on anything.


Have fun


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

After reading Nick's ideas, I like the used chainsaw file idea better. I have 3 sizes readily available all the time, and they require no expense or travel. They are already smoothly rounded off so I don't need to file off any burrs. Easier to hold than a nail I think. Nice taper and strong enough to dig without bending the tool.

About the only thing I can think of that might work better is a knitting needle. Ask an aunt or grandmother for a spare and try it.


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## monkeypuzzle (Feb 10, 2003)

Man, would hate to show you guys my first splice after reading the info on splicing. I attempted to splice some BlueStreak and failed miserable.  

Nick, I found 7 core strands and two white plastic(?) strips of ribbon with Samson Rope Technologies 2001 writen on them. I can't say these number are correct since I read your post only this a.m., but I could have lost a few strands,I paid no attention to that detail last night.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but where do I get, and what to I need to lock stitch splices? I figure by the time an order could get to me, I hope to be able to make trustworthy splices and will want to finish them off by lock stitching. Is that necessary, or is it just good practice, kind of like the two is one, one is none theory. I also was going to order some whipping twine and the sail makers needle to whip the splice. Is that acceptable instead of lock stitching or do I use that to lock stitch and then whip w/ the same twine?

Lil' more help fella's would be much appreciated! 

Monkeypuzzle we should get together and have a splicing session. To heads and four hands are better than one or two.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

I was also going to order the red plastic rope thimble from the Sherrill catalog to close the eye splice over. Do those things help protect the rope or do they just get in the way more than anything?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 10, 2003)

I've used core and sheath yarn for locking and whipping splices. It is cheaper and you have it there to use when practicing.

Whipping yarn is eaiser to use because it has a stiffer lay, but you gotta buy it.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

Sherrill has small (40') packages of whipping/ lockstitching twine available cheap. It's a little smaller/ softer than Zing-It throwline. I've also used 60lb Spiderwire (spectra) fishing line but think a larger diameter would work better. For needles, Sherrill has one for about $5 or you can hit the dollar store and get a package of upholstery needles. On my first couple splices I used a bent paper clip similar to how I used a coat hanger for splicing.

I have Samson's lockstitching and whipping instructions in a .PDF file, check your email.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

Brian,
Thanks for the lockstitching and whipping instructions! Good idea making this an entirely new thread. I didn't know I was going to get so in depth when I started asking questions on Lync's thread "knot question."
-Mike-


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Boy my gears are turnin' today!*

Brian, 

I remember when you were here, you showed me the elecrical shrink wrap you used to cover the whipped portion above the eye splice. Is that a common item that I could find at Home Depot or Lowes? More specifically, what is it called?

Thanks,
-Mike-


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

HD only has black shrink tubing, and my local one only had up to 1/2". I found the 3/4" clear shrink tubing at a local electrical supply place called Skycraft Surplus. Maybe some place like RadioShack or something?


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## tophopper (Feb 10, 2003)

*homemade fid*

Mike, here is what I use for my splices. it is simply doubled over as nick mentioned and attached to karab for a handle. once you have the fid all loaded up, then what I do is clip it into an eye screw in the ceiling, then you can use both hands (and your bodyweight) to massage and pull the splice thru the bury. This is actually alot easier than the wands


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## tophopper (Feb 10, 2003)

*fly splice*

Here is a pic of my first splice in the fly. i got it on my second try. This makes splicing 16 strand look really easy. you have to be really careful not to get things twisted up in the cross over. it took alot of patience but i am pleased with how it turned out. I dont like the awkward shape of it though, too bad you couldn't bury the cover instead of cutting it off. The final bury on this said a minimum of 6", for extra measure I buried an extra 4". 
Now I will finish it with some shrink tube.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

Sir John,
I like your homemade fid. What type of wire are you using? Coat hangers are not quite long enough to do arbo rope in one pull when you fold the wire in half. I'm thinking something like the bulk wire sold to hang accoustical ceilings? Dunno if it would be stiff enough.


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## tophopper (Feb 10, 2003)

Brian,
The wire is electric cattle fencing. Any Menards, home depot, fleet farm, etc should carry it. I cant say what it costs because mine was given to me. i do know it is only availble in 1/4 mile rolls!
im down to my last fid with what I was given and soon will have to buy some too.

It works well, it is strong and yet thin. You can bend it and abuse alot before it is garbage. and when it is, oh well you have another 1/4mile or so on the shelf.


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## geofore (Feb 10, 2003)

*splicing*

That looks to be aluminium wire he is useing for the fid. Love this starting from the beginging on splicing. Once you get good at it you'll wonder why you had such trouble at it in the first place. I save splicing for days when it snowed too much to work or rained out days. I learned how to splice three strand in Boy Scouts and went from there. With the new ropes you have to learn new splicing tech., progress. 
Most good electric shops will have shrink wrap or shrink tubes, any place you would find an electritian buying his supplies is a good bet. Look it up in the Yellow Pages. Call an electritian and ask him where he buys his stuff.
Knitting needles and crouche needles if the wife will loan you hers till you buy a good set of fids. 
Carry an awl in the tool box to untie the occasional knot that locks up on the job.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

MISSION FAILED! I messed up my second attempt! Things were looking good but I pulled apart the connection btwn the fid and core strands while trying to get it out at mark D. 

Tophopper, 
I like the fid you made. Just need to find some good wire for it. Might even spring the 50 smackers for the Toss splice wand!


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

What are ways you guys connect your pull strands to the home made fid?


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

Mike, can you pull the core back out and try again? Or was it FUBARed? I had a couple get FUBARed myself. The worst was the first splice I tried using the Toss wand. Had to cut the rope apart to get the wand out.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *Mike, can you pull the core back out and try again? Or was it FUBARed? I had a couple get FUBARed myself. The worst was the first splice I tried using the Toss wand. Had to cut the rope apart to get the wand out. *



I think I might be able to get it out. I had just started to milk it out! I'll get it!


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## tophopper (Feb 11, 2003)

this fid is made for pulling rather than pushing. Feed the fid thru at desired position in rope body, to attach simply put about 1/4" of taper core (or cover) end thru the loop in the end of the fid. When you start to pull it thru it will fold over on the loop. It should stay in the fid until is id removed where you should have just enough hanging out to finish pulling thru by hand, 
This is a little difficult to explain with words, if it is still not real clear I can post a pic if needed. 

I dont recommend the wand, you will find that a wire fid is much easier to work with. If you wanna drop some money into splicing, I recommend the video by Brion Toss, step by step instruction in an easy to follow format. Alot easier than trying to convert from paper into thought.

geo is right, once you master a splice you''ll wonder why it was so difficult before. with practice a 16 strand splice can take about 1/2 hour or so


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## mikecross23 (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tophopper _
> *with practice a 16 strand splice can take about 1/2 hour or so *



Well dang, looks like I over ran that time estimate by about, well, maybe 13 1/2 hours! ! ! Not that bad, but not good either. I removed the strands that I had pulled up into the core and snaked the fid back down and out, reattached and was successful the 2nd time. Now when I got to the end of the taper, I couldn't bury the last 3/4" to 1" of it. The rope was SO tight just above the eye splice, you couldn't drive a greased BB up it w/ a sledge hammer much less the last of the tapper! I do need some visual aid here. I'm too impatient and this is consuming me.

Thanks for the tips Tophopper.


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## tophopper (Feb 11, 2003)

your on the right track! My first splices took forever too, and when i did finish one it didnt look real pretty. figure you're first 6 or so splices are just practice, youll figure out all the subtle tricks as you go!

Get the video!! This will remove all of your guesswork

what type of rope are you splicing mike? XTC?


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## mikecross23 (Feb 11, 2003)

Tophopper,
I've got an extra brand new 50' lenght of safety blue hi-vee to mutalate. Had it for a while but it's too short for anything more than a tie down. My first attempt looks way better than my second. That was discouraging! I still won't use the first splice for anything, but atleast it came out looking pretty good. I placed an order from sherrill this morning for the video, whipping twine, sail makers needle, and ten 1/2" rope thimbles. Should be here Thursday or Friday at the latest. I want to try again tonight but I think it would be more efficient to just wait until I can see the video. I'll let ya'll know what I think of it when I see it.

-Mike-


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## NickfromWI (Feb 11, 2003)

*That last few inches*

When doing the bury, those last few inches can be a pain in the arse! As soon as it starts to get stop, and grap the throat of the splice and just bend it back and forth a few times. This loosens up the fibers of the cover and lets the strands that you are trying to bury slide in a bit easier. I milk a few times on every splice.

Another tip: Those cover strands which you have just run through the hollow in the rope, if you can tie a small loop on the end of that, then anchor it, you can get a decent pull on it. What I do is slip a rod or a carabiner through the loop that I've tied, then stand on the ends of the rod or carabiner, then (using proper lifting technique!) I hold on to the throat, straighten out my legs, and just use that opposing force to bury those core strands....taking care to cut each of the pulled strands just as they are being buried.

This might ease a little bit of the struggle! Have fun!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 11, 2003)

When you start whipping and stitching you may want to make a sailmakers palm for your opposing hand.

this one is around 15 bucks


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## mikecross23 (Feb 11, 2003)

I got it!!!  I picked up where I left off last night, clean slate and the last post by Nick helped me salvage last nights attempt to make the final 3/4" bury. From there the overlap was cake! One or two more good ones and I think I'll be ready to try it on my life lines. The splice came out tight enough that it stays put on a biner. I like the neat appearance and lack of play in the connection. The overlap is a tad bit larger diameter than the rest of the rope, but next time I can make my tapers better and avoid the imperfection. 

Thanks for all the tips guys!

-Mike-


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## mikecross23 (Feb 12, 2003)

Third night, third splice, thrice as nice! I think I've got it. The last one is almost perfect. Fits tight around the biner like a glove and buryied deep into the core. The overlap is almost just as nice, but there is a slight bump. Hardly noticeable though. I think the next one is for real! Just waitin' on the lock stitching thread and needle. Too bad I ordered the toss splicing video, but at least I'll learn more splices from it.

-Mike-


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## geofore (Feb 12, 2003)

*Toss video*

I got a couple of guys here that would put that video to use if you don't want it send it to me for my birthday. Bought two feet of shrink tube at the electric supply shop today, ouch! $7 a foot and they only had red and black. The 1" diameter tube will shrink down tight on a pencil so there is no problem slipping it over the rope. The shrink tube works at 250F and the rope melts at 350F-450F but be careful with the torch if your not useing hair dryer to skrink it. The shrink tube makes it look like a nice finish on the splice. Don't forget to sew first because that shrink tube is a b* to get off once it is shrunk.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 12, 2003)

Geofore,
Thanks for the shrink wrap tips. I'll try to get some this evening.


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## tophopper (Feb 12, 2003)

mike,
glad to here your progress!
In your final bury, the core to cover overlap, getting the perfect taper is tough. Remember alittle more material in the overlap is better than a little less.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 12, 2003)

Geofore,
I'm not trying to make you feel bad but Skycraft Surplus had the 3/4" shrink wrap for $2.40 per 4'. I think the 1" was $3 per 4'. They had about 7 colors. They were out of clear but I found a couple 6" pieces in the box of short pieces they had. Holler if you need me to pick some up for you.

I used the 3/4" because it fit and I was concerned about the 1" not shrinking down far enough.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 12, 2003)

I just got off the phone with a local Radio Shack store. They carry 3/4" and 1" diameter pieces. They come 5" long and in packages of assorted colors. I didn't ask the price though, can't be too much. 

I forgot to mention that I made my own version of a coat hanger fid that worked really well. I pushed the fid through the core at mark D and out mark B. Then I taped up as tight as I could w/ elecrical tape the cover strands that are to be attatched to the fid. Next I used a sharp coat hanger to poke a small hole directly through the taped end. Then, insert the end of fid through the hole and bend about an inch of the tip of the fid over and crimp it flat against itself (like a hook, hooking through the taped end). Now just add tape to cover the connection and make it extra secure and also cover the end of the coat hanger so it doesn't snag on the way out of the core. This worked really well for me and it allowed me to pull real hard on the fid w/ out the strands coming unattached. 

-Mike-


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## geofore (Feb 12, 2003)

*shrink/electric*

1 1/4" will shrink to 3/32"or number 8 wire, next question, does that 4' tube conduct electric or did you ask? It's important if you work around live wires, not everybody does but if you do, you have to know.
I could use shrink tube in lengths but I carry rolls of electric tape, I probably got ripped on the price  but this is good stuff, shrinks tight and I can use it for my wiring project if there is any left over. Dual purpose. 1" or 1 1/4" lets you slip over the eye if you forget to put on before you splice. Prone to the occasional senior moment.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 13, 2003)

*Mike Maas wrote this in another thread. . .*



> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *
> On splicing:
> The most important part of splicing, other than some proper training, is to test splices. Pretty don't mean chit. *



So Maas, are U sayin' that I'm gonna die! ! ! I've got 6 "pretty" splices made up, none of them have been heavily loaded yet. What's a good way to test load them, other than the obviouse tie it to the truck method, I thought about using the masdam rope puller to put weight on it in a more controlled fashion. Does that even matter?

-Mike-


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## mikecross23 (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: shrink/electric*



> _Originally posted by geofore _
> *Does that 4' tube conduct electric or did you ask?
> 
> Geofore,
> ...



Senior moment, shoot, I'm young and I forgot too put the shrink wrap on first last night. It stretched just enough to slide over the eye though. 

-Mike-


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: Mike Maas wrote this in another thread. . .*



> _Originally posted by mikecross23 _
> *So Maas, are U sayin' that I'm gonna die! ! ! I've got 6 "pretty" splices made up, none of them have been heavily loaded yet. What's a good way to test load them, other than the obviouse tie it to the truck method, I thought about using the masdam rope puller to put weight on it in a more controlled fashion. Does that even matter?
> 
> -Mike- *



To answer your first question, yes, I think you are going to die. I don't know when, but eventually...

It's called a MAASdam rope puller. It only pulls about 1000 lb.s, so that wouldn't tell you much. Rope manufactures have the expertese and will test them for you. The truck method would be better than nothing, in my amateur opinion.

I'm no expert, but would think the testing should mimic loads that you might see in the tree.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 13, 2003)

"To answer your first question, yes, I think you are going to die. I don't know when, but eventually..."

Thanks for the optimism! 

"It's called a MAASdam rope puller. It only pulls about 1000 lb.s, so that wouldn't tell you much. I'm no expert, but would think the testing should mimic loads that you might see in the tree."

But I only weigh 170lbs, so in most every situation, my rear end won't load the rope/eye splice more than the dam MAAS rope puller could during testing. I will snatch, jerk, and pull the heck out of one with the truck just to see what kind of abuse it will take. I guess that will be my peice of mind allowing me to realize that my eye splices will not be the cause of my death. 

See Ya!
-Mike-


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2003)

Mike, what loads do you put on a rope while working? 

A splice is like a knot, how do you test your knots?

Not to say it would be a bad thing to have your splices tested by the manufacturer before you climb on them.

If one is splicing man rated eyes for other people, then it would be good CYA, also a cheap product liability insurance would be in order.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 13, 2003)

Mike,
If the heaviest load your rope will ever see is 1000 lbs, then why do ya think those saftey nuts want the rope to hold 5400 lbs?

I'v e been climbing for a long time, and over the years I've tested my gear to well over a 1000 lbs at least three times, that I can think of, off the top of my head.
Tree work exposes the climber to all kinds of risks, it's not just you hanging gently on on the end of your line. 

The biggest load I put on a climbing rope was in my earlier days, climbing a dead tree with a cavity. I didn't like the look of the decayed spot, so I used a rock climbing trick and set an anchor just below it, and climbed up to top the tree. Well, the top broke out and took me for a ride. The whole top of a mature oak and myself fell about 20' before the line tightened up and stopped me and the top. Looking down, another 30' or so, the whole ground was covered with huge rocks. Had I hit the ground it would of killed me. I made a lot of mistakes that day, but at least I had rated equipment.
I don't make this stuff up. It happens and can happen to you. Doing the minumum, following saftey standards, might just save your life when you do something stupid, and you will, trust me.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 13, 2003)

Good perspective Maas, now can we please have one of those ever so creative illustrations you used to draw all the time.  

How do you (and others) set the splice after it's been burried. I assume that I should set it before I lock stitch it. True?

I know that me alone pulling on the splice is not a lot of load, but it dang sure seems solid and the fact that there are 30 plus inches of cover pulled up into the core make me feel pretty confident.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 13, 2003)

I just tried lock stitching a splice. How in the heck do you get the needle through that tight weave and out the other side? I ordered the sail makers needle from Sherrill. The needle is a big 'ol hammer knocker and the rope just does not want to open up enough. Would a smaller needle from an arts and crafts store make things easier?

I watched part of Toss' splicing video and he says he doesn't see a real need for lock stitching other than it being good practice and cheap insurance. 

Maybe he's right, but I sure would feel better doin' it! 

-Mike-


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## NickfromWI (Feb 13, 2003)

*Lock Stitching...*

Mike-
Some hints to make the lockstitching a bit easier. 

2- Massage the throat to loosen the fibers before you begin.
1- Go down a few more inches before you start. Right where the cover strands are entering the cover, there is a ton of tension. Move down until you can get that needle through. I've seen some splices from Sherrill (on split tails) where the stitch was about a foot down the splice. I don't go that far because it doesn't look good to me and I'm not getting paid by the hour, so I can take the extra time to do it my way.
2- Where ever you decide to put that needle in, if it doesn't go easy, and you don't have a thimble or a palm, try this: Put the needle in the little bit you can..maybe just barely an eighth of an inch. Now hold the rope parallel to a firm surface (work bench) and push the rope onto the needle. With some work, it should go through.
3- THE BROCCOLI RUBBERBAND TRICK!!!! I love this. Next time you're at the grocery store, head to the produce department (which is usually the first thing you see when you go in). Pick up a bunch of broccoli. It is often bundled by a fat rubberband. Either buy that bunch of broccoli, or find some other way to obtain that rubber band (or one like it). Now, when you have a needle that is sticking out of the rope, but you can't get it all the way...don't use pliers...that will scratch up and ruin your nice needle. Instead, pinch the needle with that rubber band. You should be able to get the extra friction/gription necessary to pull that sucker outta there.
4- Thin needles go in and out easier
5- Don't wrap a whipping on so tight that you can't get the needle through....that is a sign that there is too much tension in the whipping...or that you are using a needle that is just too large.
6- Brion doesn't spend all day climbing on those lines. I will continue to lock stitch (using NICCS Method) no matter what he says.

Okay, see how that works for a while. Let us know if you have some more questions. 

Now, regarding the prettiness of splices. It DOES mean a lot. A bad splice can be quickly spotted just by it's lack of prettiness. An abrupt taper, snagged strands here or there, twist in the eye, a bump or hourglass in a crossover taper....all these are signs of poor workpersonship. I've had some of my splices tested and I could tell, just by looking at them which would do poorly. 

As JPS has already addressed. A splice is a knot. If someone asks me when was the last time I tested a knot, I can say..."Last time I climbed a tree."

Have fun, bury deep, long smooth tapers, inspect your splices often, and mostly, enjoy the non-bulkiness!

love
nick


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 13, 2003)

The splices I worry about most are on ropes with parallel strand cores.
My point about being pretty is, just 'cus it's pretty doesn't mean is secure and strong.
Oh, and yes, destructively tested splices should be cut up and thrown away.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 13, 2003)

The point of testing a splice, I think, is when you are just starting out. This is jsut to assure and insure that it is doen right.

Pretty does make it better, if the bury and taper are right, a pretty splice means it is done properly. Just like a well dressed knot.

As for whip and stitch, my understanding is that it is to keep it from creeping or milking out during all the loading cycles. This is the theory behind Cobra Cable. The splice slips a little as the tree grows in between the movement in wind loading.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 13, 2003)

Of my first 5-6 splices on arbo rope, one was on a 20'-25' piece of Safety Blue (Don'tcha HATE when you nick a brand new rope with your chainsaw?). A buddy got his chevy pickup stuck in the sand and it was a perfect opportunity to test my splicing. I used that rope and loaded the splice (with a 51Kn steel rigging biner) to pull his truck out of the sand. The splice never budged. Now I trust my splices.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 13, 2003)

*Stitching*

What JPS says about the purpose of stitching is correct. It's to keep the buries buried during all that loading and unloading. Even though you can lay two ropes side by side and whip them together is such a way that the strength of the whipping matches the strength of the rope, that is not the intention in the splices that tree folks use.

love
nick


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## geofore (Feb 13, 2003)

*Test*

3:1 or 4:1 block set up tied to one tree at base spliced rope tied to another tree at base and pull on block set up with truck. The rope you spliced should break before the splice breaks. Since you are testing to distruction pick any of the six you made for the test. What is the breaking strength of the rope that broke? If your splice broke try another one. If two of your splices broke before the rope, you need more help with your splices. Make sure your block set up is rated past the breaking point of the ropes you splice, and make sure no one is standing inside the danger zone as this set up will fly when the rope fails.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 19, 2003)

*Splice Crossover*

From: Araya, Nickolas 
To: Araya, Nickolas 
Cc: 

Subject: 
Sent: 2/17/03 4:04 PM 
Importance: Normal 
Okay, here's a question- 
When I make a split tail section for someone, say 5 feet long and an eye on one end, Yale XTC, I just use the cover strands as the core strands...I remove all the original core strands. I think this is the way most splicers are doing it, though I have heard of people leaving in those original core strands, doing the crossover as usual, and then cutting it off at the length they desire.

Regardless, we know it's accepted to remove all the core strands and replace ALL of them with the cover strands you bury with. 

Now, say we're making a flip line....9 feet long, an eye on each end. Could you not do the same thing....get rid of all those core stands, then have the two buries taper into eachother? For a long flip line, 20' (for example) this would cost you 40' of rope, but on a shorty, it might make sense. 

My concern is those shorter lengths of core strands floating around inside the rope. Can those become a problem? 

Check out the picture and this question might make more sense. 

love 
nick

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/bigone83079/vwp?.dir=/splicing+stuff&.dnm=cross.10.jpg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 19, 2003)

Geo-

Would not the line break jsut before the splice, just before the disturbance of the natural flow of the line (unless splice is really bad). Kinda like right before it flairs, the internal tensions would back up from the interuption in even flow and shape at the flair of the splice and cause failure before it? i have always visualized it like under succh and such a load a tightened nylon fibre stretched beyond elassticity would be approaaching the charachtersitics of fragility to such change like glass fibres? Strong but has delicacies? Not sure just trying to figure what is going on. i could see where a 10'splice that you had enough length to just test the splice coming out stronger along the length of the splice. But i have always witnessed and understood the weak link/ achilles tendon of the splice would be just like any other knot, if some other imperfection/bend in the line didn't become the weaker link.

Some line choices for splicing (BlueStreak, SafetyBlues a Sherrill splicer pointed out to me some years ago) have fibre shapes/softness that lay down better in a splice, to maintain manufactured shape/strength in splicing better. This wouldd give better strength, and if the more compact design provides more contact area betwixt fibres, that would make it more secure at the same time.

i think splices are stronger more secure after being set in moderate use, rather than when new. i think whipping in 12/16 strand (stuffed tube splice rather than woven); is especially important to bridge to the more set/stronger splice after use and eliminate any creep in surfaces until, the constricted/drawn tight stage of moderate use is met.

Mike i use that same method for climbing up above favorable wood. If it is light stuff, i will also choke a karab every 8' or so, limiting fall to the last good hold as both lines are run thru it, truly imitating mountaineering strategies, with mountaineering gear, on that day's mountain! Also, another karab/sling or other positive mechanical stop to keep lifeline from riding up above good wood as you climb, or in case of impact from a fall incident i think is very important.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 19, 2003)

Nick Love,
Wouldn't it be a lot of work to bury 4 or more feet? Other than the extra work, it seems that they would both be equal in strength. Doing a full length bury would make the lanyard stiffer, I guess.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 19, 2003)

Mike- It isn't an additional 4 feet. A standard arborist splice is buried 28", so therefore it is about half way on a 5' split tail. 
Also, arbo rope gets it's strength in the outer strands. The core doesn't bear weight, it only keeps the rope round. Nick's method would be somewhat stronger. (The exception is the new Fly rope which gets it's strength in the inner core strands. The outer cover mostly protects the load bearing strands. That is why it uses a different splice.)

Of course none of this really makes much sense to me. Why bother with a split tail if you aren't going to use one of the advanced hitches? When I finally switched to a split tail, I used it for about 48 hours before moving on to an avanced hitch. If I was going to spend all that money to 'advance', then I had to keep going until I found a true advantage. In my opinion, using a split tail with a Blake's is a waste.
{Stepping off my soap box now}


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 19, 2003)

Brian,
He was refering to a 9' lomg lanyard with an eye on each end. So 9' minus 56"(two eyes)=4' of extra bury.


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## Ryan Willock (Feb 19, 2003)

Brain what hitch are you using then??? I think you said that you were using a distal? am I right? what is the advantage???


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## mikecross23 (Feb 19, 2003)

The biggest advantage I noticed after switching from the blake's to the distel was that it loosens up to advance up the rope much easier. It can be tied short which keeps it close to your slack tender and you don't have to touch it on your ascent. 

I'm Hooked!
Mike


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## Ryan Willock (Feb 19, 2003)

hummmmm.... i do believe that i'll have to try it!


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## NickfromWI (Feb 19, 2003)

*The Blakes*

Brian-
I was not implying that I use the Blakes. I don't. I was using that explaination of how some people do the splice for a split tail (if they WERE using Blakes, or splicing for someone who does), to raise a question about splicing flip lines that have an eye on each end.

Thanks, Mike for understanding.

Regarding the question, it seems that there is a shortness when an eye-to-eye sling in 16-strand rope would NOT have any of the original core strands. I was just wondering where that point is. Is it a four foot length...if so, would it also be 4'1", and if so, 4'2" and so on until you get to 9'......I just wanted to know where people would be drawing the line.

Pardon the unclarity of my question.

love
nick


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## geofore (Feb 20, 2003)

*breaking point*

He said he wanted to test the splice because he didn't know his splice to be good. Point being the rope is the weakest point not the splice but unless he tries it he won't know this. My guy used the BlueStreak to pull on the SafetyBlue and the SafetyBlue broke about three feet in from the splice. Clean break, like it was cut with a razor, splice intact. I would trust the splice. There are half a dozen places near me that test materials and a rope testing place within one mile, I know my splices will hold but he doesn't know if his will. I suggested a cheap easy test to see what happens. You explain things much better than I do, you'll now have him worried how much he has weakened the rope. I do think his rope will break first to verify the splice will hold and he did splice it right. I need to mention again that you throw the spliced rope away after you test the splice and splice a new piece now that you have seen the rope breaks first.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 20, 2003)

What do you mean, Nick, by shortness in a rope?


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## NickfromWI (Feb 20, 2003)

*Shortness*

Good question, mike-
Let me clarify-

Okay, If you splice a 16 strand arborist climbing line, say only 4 feet long, and you put an eye on EACH side, there will be NO original core strands in the rope. The buried cover strands would overlap. Stop and picture that before you proceed (you could go back and look at the pic i posted...it would be the top on, i think.

Now, at what length would it no longer be appropriate to remove all the original core strands. This is important when I'm splicing a flip line. Say someone wants a six foot flip line. If I do an eye on each end, following the normal splicing directions, there won't be much original core strands in there....Should I have removed all of the core stands? If not, then what if it was only 5.5feet?, or 5.25?

at what length....or should I say, "shortness" is it no longer prudent to remove all those core strands?

Hope this makes more sense.

By the way, the drawings I posted, did they open up all-right for y'all?

love
nick


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## BigJohn (Feb 25, 2003)

I found that a small pair of needle nose pliers work well for separating the cover yarns and pulling out the core. Lockstitching looks good but not always needed. I too will use the core yarns to stitch with or if I want a nicer finish I like to use whipping twine from Marlow. It is available in a few different sizes. I've been useing the Toss wand for awhile now and really like it. I found that it is pretty useless for the fly. I use spliceing fids and pushers from Samson for this. I would suggest getting the Toss video from Sherril. I still have to go back to video when spliceing the T900. Take your time and massage the rope. 


Have fun!


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## BigJohn (Mar 2, 2003)

I got mine from Rock and Rescue, you cand find it on the web. I got the 3/4" clear for $1 a foot. Not a bad deal a thought. You can also find some good stuff from west marine. They have tubeing with a glue on the inside that would help to keep the wrap in place.


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## Tim Gardner (Mar 6, 2003)

This is the tool I use to splice 16 strand. It is a brake line for the wand and a cable puller to attach the rope to the wand. It pulls thru real easy.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 6, 2003)

How much does the cable puller cost? Fresco has one on a stcik for a fid for around $35.


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## Tim Gardner (Mar 7, 2003)

I think i paid less than $8.00 for mine and have made several splices with it.


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