# How would you have dropped it?



## Woody912 (Jan 28, 2015)

26" forked cherry, fork started about 5' off the ground but I could see the seam running all the way to ground level. Maybe 50' tall. About 40% leaning east and the other west and the drop had to be to the west a/c property line and there was also a fence against the east side of the tree. Concerned about the east side breaking loose when I made my back cut. I chained the east side of the tree about 15' up and hooked up to the truck in the west field and tensioned it. Face cut as close as I could to the ground and then bored my back cut so I could avoid the fence, about 3" above my face to within couple inches and then pulled it over with the truck. Tree also weighted to the south so I did all my cutting from the north side, just barely enough with my 25" bar. Everything went good, my question being; was I really stupid and was there a better way to do this?Yes, I should have taken pics! Tree did split during the fall and there was nothing there except included bark in the fork, no wood whatsoever.


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## chucker (Jan 28, 2015)

from what you described to us you put it on the ground with no damage ! so one would think "you did good pilgrim" ! your still alive and able to use the wood for what ever your need may be so you have a win/win situation... whom could really say with not being there?


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## Gologit (Jan 28, 2015)




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## northmanlogging (Jan 28, 2015)

My only concern would have been cutting with the seam like that, might have wrapped and but a binder on it to keep it together. Also being it was headed west anyway probably would of just free fell it no need to pull it. But not being there? Who knows, them co dominant trees can be tricky, and any time yer cutting next to a fence or other high value targets things can get more then a little sketchy so a safety line is always a good idea.


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## Woody912 (Jan 28, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> My only concern would have been cutting with the seam like that, might have wrapped and but a binder on it to keep it together. Also being it was headed west anyway probably would of just free fell it no need to pull it. But not being there? Who knows, them co dominant trees can be tricky, and any time yer cutting next to a fence or other high value targets things can get more then a little sketchy so a safety line is always a good idea.



Thought about a binder but then decided that having a chain up high with leverage and pulling "east" fork against "west" with the truck would hold tighter. This tree looked like a single stem with a fork until you got real close to it. Fence was of no value but takes away a lot of escape routes


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## northmanlogging (Jan 28, 2015)

That close to fences always sucks more then a little... Some of the few times I've bored the back cut is because of fences...


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 28, 2015)

i cut one like that only bigger not long ago....only it weren't hollow and no fence. i don't like falling twins together at all. i will split them verticaly down to where i can reach it. being they were hollow, i'd say you lucked out here and there really wasn't a good way.


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## Woody912 (Jan 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i cut one like that only bigger not long ago....only it weren't hollow and no fence. i don't like falling twins together at all. i will split them verticaly down to where i can reach it. being they were hollow, i'd say you lucked out here and there really wasn't a good way.


No, not hollow. They were sound trees however if I had known they had no connecting wood I am not sure I would have started. Just cutting fence rows for a friend so I did not have to cut it, guess I just had to prove I could do it. We started this project about 6 yrs ago and I had zero falling experience. Learned a lot since then from guys on AS. Interesting to note I found a query from Bsnelling a few yrs back with the same query. Never did find the resolution


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## dhskier2 (Jan 28, 2015)

chucker said:


> from what you described to us you put it on the ground with no damage ! so one would think "you did good pilgrim" ! your still alive and able to use the wood for what ever your need may be so you have a win/win situation... whom could really say with not being there?



Where's the common sense to keep your mouth shut? Have you seen some of the hair-brained stuff people put up on this site about how they tipped a tree over? Or watched any of the how-not-to-do-it youtube videos? And then they stand tall behind it like they know what the hell they're doing. They figured they got it on the ground, and they're still able to turn the camera off- so they musta "done good pilgrim".
No, most of the time they're complete idiots who shouldn't be allowed to cut their own carrots at dinner, let alone cut a tree down.
Woody asked for some advice from professional fallers (which I'm not, and so won't comment about it). What he didn't ask was how cool his "hold my beer and watch this" scenario played out. So please, keep the "it's all good, you're still alive. I can't judge you" comments to yourself. What a comment like that says is: I don't have, nor do I care about what it takes to do this kind of work in the safest and most effective manner possible.


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## bitzer (Jan 28, 2015)

One at a time. Especially at only five feet off the ground. I've cut hundreds maybe thousands like this. They can and will split apart when puttin in yer cuts below the split. Makes for smashed saws and lots of running. I'm cuttin soft maple swamps right now. Several marms a day. Springboarded some last week. Had a couple backcuts holding my saw as high as I could reach over my head. They were 20"+ past the split kind of stuff. Over 4' dbh. You can't trust them to hold and I'll nearly always cut em above the split rather then rip em. Much, much faster. Five feet is eye level. Thats easy enough to put in good cuts yet and wedge.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 28, 2015)

Woody912 said:


> No, not hollow. They were sound trees however if I had known they had no connecting wood I am not sure I would have started. Just cutting fence rows for a friend so I did not have to cut it, guess I just had to prove I could do it. We started this project about 6 yrs ago and I had zero falling experience. Learned a lot since then from guys on AS. Interesting to note I found a query from Bsnelling a few yrs back with the same query. Never did find the resolution


most hardwood twins are not connected as far up as you think. be carfull, it can go side ways quikly.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 28, 2015)

bitzer said:


> One at a time. Especially at only five feet off the ground. I've cut hundreds maybe thousands like this. They can and will split apart when puttin in yer cuts below the split. Makes for smashed saws and lots of running. I'm cuttin soft maple swamps right now. Several marms a day. Springboarded some last week. Had a couple backcuts holding my saw as high as I could reach over my head. You can't trust them to hold and I'll nearly always cut em above the split rather then rip em. Much, much faster. Five feet is eye level. Thats easy enough to put in good cuts yet and wedge.


i had to rip down that cherry to get to 5' lol. the small side was 33".........i was surprised it went good........flawless save out. i have you guys to thank.


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## bitzer (Jan 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i had to rip down that cherry to get to 5' lol. the small side was 33".........i was surprised it went good........flawless save out. i have you guys to thank.


Musta been one hell of a cherry. I love it when things work right.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 28, 2015)

wan't veneer but solid. big field tree........clear cut, it had to go. i swore it be hollow......nope.


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## bitzer (Jan 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> wan't veneer but solid. big field tree........clear cut, it had to go. i swore it be hollow......nope.


Those big cherrys are a crap shoot.


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## bnmc98 (Jan 28, 2015)

In my experience, when I see a seam on twins, I consider them separate trees. I usually make my face at the lowest point of the seam I can and then bore into the seam for the back cut. If it doesn't go you can always cut right down the seam and split them. for what its worth.


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## chucker (Jan 29, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> Where's the common sense to keep your mouth shut? Have you seen some of the hair-brained stuff people put up on this site about how they tipped a tree over? Or watched any of the how-not-to-do-it youtube videos? And then they stand tall behind it like they know what the hell they're doing. They figured they got it on the ground, and they're still able to turn the camera off- so they musta "done good pilgrim".
> No, most of the time they're complete idiots who shouldn't be allowed to cut their own carrots at dinner, let alone cut a tree down.
> Woody asked for some advice from professional fallers (which I'm not, and so won't comment about it). What he didn't ask was how cool his "hold my beer and watch this" scenario played out. So please, keep the "it's all good, you're still alive. I can't judge you" comments to yourself. What a comment like that says is: I don't have, nor do I care about what it takes to do this kind of work in the safest and most effective manner possible.


lol!!! so did you miss with your wildthing trimming your caveman girly nails ? it's funny that you should chit before you know how to wipe the crap from your big mouth!..... PLEASE, do us a favor and don't drool all over your key board trying to justify a comment made in just!.... ? or are you looking for a pat on the back like the op? lol


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 29, 2015)

Hush you two, grownups are talking.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 29, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> That close to fences always sucks more then a little... Some of the few times I've bored the back cut is because of fences...


I sloped a back cut before because of a fenceopcorn:


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 29, 2015)

It's very common for guys to mistake conjoined trees for a single tree with codominate leaders. The short answer woody is it sounds like you got lucky. From your description I probably would have treated it as two separate trees.


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## Woody912 (Jan 29, 2015)

TheJollyLogger said:


> It's very common for guys to mistake conjoined trees for a single tree with codominate leaders. The short answer woody is it sounds like you got lucky. From your description I probably would have treated it as two separate trees.



I think having the chain pulling against the other trunk increased my luck significantly. I had a wedge in and it never budged during the whole process, I was also about 30 rows of corn stubble away when it actually fell also!!!


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## 2dogs (Jan 30, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> Where's the common sense to keep your mouth shut? Have you seen some of the hair-brained stuff people put up on this site about how they tipped a tree over? Or watched any of the how-not-to-do-it youtube videos? And then they stand tall behind it like they know what the hell they're doing. They figured they got it on the ground, and they're still able to turn the camera off- so they musta "done good pilgrim".
> No, most of the time they're complete idiots who shouldn't be allowed to cut their own carrots at dinner, let alone cut a tree down.
> Woody asked for some advice from professional fallers (which I'm not, and so won't comment about it). What he didn't ask was how cool his "hold my beer and watch this" scenario played out. So please, keep the "it's all good, you're still alive. I can't judge you" comments to yourself. What a comment like that says is: I don't have, nor do I care about what it takes to do this kind of work in the safest and most effective manner possible.



You're not a faller. Keep YOUR mouth shut.


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## 1270d (Jan 31, 2015)

A few years ago I was working with a new hire for a couple days. Course you can't show him everything, but it seemed like he was paying attention and the job was smaller pulp type wood so he went to it on his own. Soft maple, beech etc. 

Well, it wasn't more than an hour and I could see he was in the truck. Walked out and asked him what the deal was. He had faced a twin soft maple with the face in one stem only. It had a real tight seam so I guess he thought it was a crotched out single stem. The back cut went right through on stem and of course it sat on the bar. The cut was far enough in that the stem with the face cut fell as well. Smashed the saw a bit and by the size of the kids eyes I think he learned a lesson.


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## Woody912 (Jan 31, 2015)

1270d said:


> A few years ago I was working with a new hire for a couple days. Course you can't show him everything, but it seemed like he was paying attention and the job was smaller pulp type wood so he went to it on his own. Soft maple, beech etc.
> 
> Well, it wasn't more than an hour and I could see he was in the truck. Walked out and asked him what the deal was. He had faced a twin soft maple with the face in one stem only. It had a real tight seam so I guess he thought it was a crotched out single stem. The back cut went right through on stem and of course it sat on the bar. The cut was far enough in that the stem with the face cut fell as well. Smashed the saw a bit and by the size of the kids eyes I think he learned a lesson.




I think fence row hedge are the worst, 4 or 5 stems grow together and the limbs are so intertwined that when you cut one you have to throw a chain on it and drag it out to get to the next one. I did not see the seam in this cherry until I got within 6' or so


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## dhskier2 (Feb 2, 2015)

If chucker's post was all sarcasm, I didn't pick up on it. In that case, I'm the ignorant one and my post was out of line. If the post wasn't sarcasm, then the shoe's still on the other foot. For the most part, AS is full of good advice. Too often though I see the response of "its on the ground and you're not hurt" to scenarios where something is really out of order/incorrect/not safe. Those situations need to be called out. My post would have been better suited with some tact.


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 3, 2015)

It's all good.


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## chucker (Feb 3, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> If chucker's post was all sarcasm, I didn't pick up on it. In that case, I'm the ignorant one and my post was out of line. If the post wasn't sarcasm, then the shoe's still on the other foot. For the most part, AS is full of good advice. Too often though I see the response of "its on the ground and you're not hurt" to scenarios where something is really out of order/incorrect/not safe. Those situations need to be called out. My post would have been better suited with some tact.


"WOODY912" there was no sarcasm meant or intended towards your post! any damage to property would not really matter as my comment was a fact that you are alive and well! your personal safety is all that matters first and last in life ! we all learn from our mistakes. which myself at 57 seem to do repeatedly way to often! lol but then I am still learning daily and hope to continue to do so daily for quite some time!!!! sorry for any misjudgment on my part!!!! so "all is good from this pilgrim".....!


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## Woody912 (Feb 3, 2015)

chucker said:


> "WOODY912" there was no sarcasm meant or intended towards your post! any damage to property would not really matter as my comment was a fact that you are alive and well! your personal safety is all that matters first and last in life ! we all learn from our mistakes. which myself at 57 seem to do repeatedly way to often! lol but then I am still learning daily and hope to continue to do so daily for quite some time!!!! sorry for any misjudgment on my part!!!! so "all is good from this pilgrim".....!



All good here. Interesting thing is I was bucking this tree today well below a fork and it broke and swatted my buddy in the head, had no inkling it would break there. ( no harm, no foul) all included bark. Hope to get a pic of this stump when the snow clears


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 3, 2015)

What was your buddy doing that close? Just because a tree's on the ground doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. Trees, especially full canopy trees, still store a lot of potential energy until they're fully bucked up. I've seen more guys hurt that way than anything.


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## Gologit (Feb 3, 2015)

TheJollyLogger said:


> What was your buddy doing that close? Just because a tree's on the ground doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. Trees, especially full canopy trees, still store a lot of potential energy until they're fully bucked up. I've seen more guys hurt that way than anything.



Well said.


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## HuskStihl (Feb 3, 2015)

I think our live oaks are much worse once they're on the ground


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## slowp (Feb 3, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I think our live oaks are much worse once they're on the ground



But, aren't they dead oaks once they are cut?


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 3, 2015)

Then they're just heavy.


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## Woody912 (Feb 3, 2015)

TheJollyLogger said:


> What was your buddy doing that close? Just because a tree's on the ground doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. Trees, especially full canopy trees, still store a lot of potential energy until they're fully bucked up. I've seen more guys hurt that way than anything.



I cut and he piles brush. Because of the snow conditions we take the little stuff off and then leave the skeletons until the firewood guy can get there before cutting to length. I usually have to cut a limb or two to get some of the little stuff to cutting level. This particular one I was about 2' below a fork working up from the butt while he picked up the top stuff I had worked on, would have waved him out on the next cut! I usually circle the tree so we can work opposite ends and keep him away from the saw. Never dreamed this one would split. File this under good lesson.


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## treeslayer2003 (Feb 3, 2015)

TheJollyLogger said:


> What was your buddy doing that close? Just because a tree's on the ground doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. Trees, especially full canopy trees, still store a lot of potential energy until they're fully bucked up. I've seen more guys hurt that way than anything.


+1 i have been hurt way worse topping than any thing. hard wood...oak more so and hickory can store an amazing amount of energy.


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## Woody912 (Feb 3, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> +1 i have been hurt way worse topping than any thing. hard wood...oak more so and hickory can store an amazing amount of energy.


Hedge and hackberry are my worst. Tough as nails and intertwined and hurt like blazes when you get whipped on a 0 degree morning. All wild cherry in this fencerow, I get a break this winter


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## treeslayer2003 (Feb 3, 2015)

i would think hedge is awful lol


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedge (osage orange ) is without a doubt the hardest wood I've ever cut.


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## Woody912 (Feb 4, 2015)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Hedge (osage orange ) is without a doubt the hardest wood I've ever cut.


green hedge here is not bad as long as it is not frozen, however these trees are on the edge of a cornfield and the growth rings are about 3/4' apart; don't know if the rapid growth decreases hardness.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 14, 2015)

not reading what anyone would do. (at this point)

This is what im thinking, it sounds like two trees,most likely.
Another theory is posible but less likely, So it was a fuse.
Did I answer the question? I think I'm in the wrong forum
In cases and with species like cedar they will hold and you have two options (on a hillside)To seperate and bore, one, one way and one the other or fall as one.
Not the case here, Obviously the heavier front won't pull the back snipe if judged wrong,causing a pinch or possibly loss of control as its two trees and the back one wouldn't have an undercut. If I was able to wedge the back one from the side I'd drop the front one, other posible options? 
high cut, high wedge? but your stronger fibers are at the bottom? notch in for a bottle jack or stand in the fork maybe climb another 5 ft and tie. pull it over as you did at that point.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 14, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> If chucker's post was all sarcasm, I didn't pick up on it. In that case, I'm the ignorant one and my post was out of line. If the post wasn't sarcasm, then the shoe's still on the other foot. For the most part, AS is full of good advice. Too often though I see the response of "its on the ground and you're not hurt" to scenarios where something is really out of order/incorrect/not safe. Those situations need to be called out. My post would have been better suited with some tact.



very classy! I liked your point but yes tact.
The harshness takes away from what would have otherwise been a realy good post. IMO 
"not qualified to cut his own carrots" is priceless.
LMAO


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 14, 2015)

Woody912 said:


> All good here. Interesting thing is I was bucking this tree today well below a fork and it broke and swatted my buddy in the head, had no inkling it would break there. ( no harm, no foul) all included bark. Hope to get a pic of this stump when the snow clears


As long as he only had a concussion and you guys were able to have a coherent convo..erm I mean as normal as it gets, doing some livingroom cutting while having some beer then its all good in the hood.
here we go...get the $hit going

seriously thats bad! Falling zones are to be respected.
I happened to have two friends (fallers)that hit and killed workers with trees. In one case it was the guy coming into his falling zone and they didn't even know until they went back looking for him. He was posturing with deep breathing.
(brain dead) The other was a Certified Utility Arborist (CUA)
and his helper was turfing the tree off the line but the CUA used a short rope but the helper was talking (fighting) on the phone with his GF and went the wrong way. They didn't fault the CUA but 4 years latter when we worked together,he always used a long rope.
For us its two tree lengths or 60 metres, which ever is greater. approach from the high side and wait or yell from 60 metres or two tree lengths and ask "is it safe? Is anything is cut up"? signage, barricades or "active falling zone" ribbon.


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## Woody912 (Feb 14, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> not reading what anyone would do. (at this point)
> 
> This is what im thinking, it sounds like two trees,most likely.
> Another theory is posible but less likely, So it was a fuse.
> ...



I find it hard to use a wedge in a stem much under 16", not enough room for the bar or not enough left for a hinge. Sometimes wonder why they don't make short wedges with a sharper angle for this purpose. Pretty happy with what we did here, chain kept whole thing immobile. Worst case the butt could have kicked back and pinched the bar. Could have cut it as 2 stems but one of them was going over the fence and then we would had to drag everything out to the road and around and clean up the debris field


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## Woody912 (Feb 14, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> As long as he only had a concussion and you guys were able to have a coherent convo..erm I mean as normal as it gets, doing some livingroom cutting while having some beer then its all good in the hood.
> here we go...get the $hit going
> 
> seriously thats bad! Falling zones are to be respected.
> ...



no concussion, 6" diameter where I was cutting and what got him was 1" and under. Still not good and probably paying as much attn as we should have been


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 14, 2015)

Back to your question.
your quote: "Was I realy stupid and was there a better way to do it'
yes and yes again!
ok, like the boys said as did I.
Get the first one out of the way. Its a 7 second job.
cut above the fork or bore..both good.
Why it was stupid was because you just cut straight through the back stem without any undercut. Where is your control?
Would you do that normally? Then why were you doing it then?
The only positive was you left a back step and stood on the "high side". bad practice! bad! bad!bad!
And also straping that would be a lot different than
one may do for a barber chair. It would require two,in this case at the farthest spread or again, no control.
why would the second one have to go over the fence???
It makes no sense to me.
-Cut the first one
-a little tention on your rope
-three precise cuts
-pull the second fuçer over.

steep wedges are $hit
run 10" & 12 K&H wedges.
Its the sleek ones that lift the wood and stick.
They go in sideways on small diameter against the lean.
make sure you have holding wood or you will just pop it off.
they always get you out of a pinch If you didn't set a wedge.
practice small dia against the lean doing back cut first with wedges suggested.


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## bitzer (Feb 15, 2015)

Backcut first then wedge in then face. Pretty simple. All I run is 10s & 12s for wedges. You can wedge a 10" tree with a 10" wedge.


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## treeslayer2003 (Feb 15, 2015)

only wedges i have are 10" TT K&H, do all wedge.


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## Westboastfaller (Feb 16, 2015)

^^^^^There ya go!
The boys will tell ya right.


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## Woody912 (Feb 17, 2015)

Well, this is the tree in question. Might have got lucky. Last pic is a tree on down the line, told my buddy we WILL NOT be falling that one in one step,much bigger tree. Thinking we will tell the neighbor the other half is falling in his side!


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