# Can't seem to hire an employee



## kkottemann (Jul 4, 2006)

Any advice on getting help. I have been in business for a little over 2 years for myself. One year of that was a part time venture for me. Since going full time I have continuously struggled to find some permanent help. I have had a few people come and go, but nobody stays. I have been getting my work done with two of my buddies who are state foresters and only work 3-4 day a week. They are always there for me Friday, Saturday and Sunday but that is not making it any more for my business. My business is growing and I think I have a good chance of making it, but now I cannot get jobs done fast enough for costumers who are looking to other tree services to get it done.
I have tried ads in the classified section, I have ads in the student papers at two local universities. I have put the work out within my family ect....I know labor is always a problem, but maybe some of you could give me some advice on this issue.

kkottemann


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## frashdog (Jul 4, 2006)

What are you offering an employee? Pay? Decent equipment? What are you expecting from them? 

How come I feel like treeinnovator's gonna post something with all kinds a smarts here. opcorn:


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## vharrison2 (Jul 4, 2006)

I feel your pain. Qualified tree workers are very hard to find, climbers nearly impossible. We are always looking.


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## kkottemann (Jul 4, 2006)

All I need right now is groundsmen. $10 to $13.50 DOE is the pay offered. My only true requirement as of now is that they have a valid drivers licsense. Curently I am not offering any health insurance. Equipment includes: grapple truck, stump grinder, skidsteer, chipper, pickup tuck, saws and climbing gear.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 4, 2006)

here's some words of wisdom:

(1) always hire people who are making less than what you are offering...ex: i hire from fast food and grocery stores.
(2) create a social atmosphere. people will put up with less pay if they enjoy hanging out with the others. i tend to hire one guy and tell him to get his friends to come aboard. they seem to like this.
(3) don't ever let them know what your customer is paying you. if my guys knew i made over $400,000 a year, they'd get all pissy and demand more or start their own company.
(4) pay your groundies $8/hr and climbers $10/hr. NEVER more. if they need more incentives... give them free water and every monday, pay for their lunch.


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## clearance (Jul 4, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> here's some words of wisdom:
> 
> (1) always hire people who are making less than what you are offering...ex: i hire from fast food and grocery stores.
> (2) create a social atmosphere. people will put up with less pay if they enjoy hanging out with the others. i tend to hire one guy and tell him to get his friends to come aboard. they seem to like this.
> ...


This guy is a tard, listen up, go to a construction site and watch for a while. If you see a guy who is working hard, constantly producing, say packing lumber, using a jackhammer, etc., walk up to him after work and say, "how much are you getting? How about X an hour?" You get what you pay for, a guy working construction already knows how to work, advancement in a tree company comes a lot faster than in construction, treat him good and he will stay.


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## Fireaxman (Jul 4, 2006)

clearance said:


> This guy is a tard, listen up, go to a construction site and watch for a while. If you see a guy who is working hard, constantly producing, say packing lumber, using a jackhammer, etc., walk up to him after work and say, "how much are you getting? How about X an hour?" You get what you pay for, a guy working construction already knows how to work, advancement in a tree company comes a lot faster than in construction, treat him good and he will stay.



Good advice, Clearance. Also, the construction guy already knows how to take the heat down here. Vitally important when temps are 95+ and matched by humidity. The grocery store guy has been working in air conditioning all his life.

Where are you working, KK? Just Poplarville and New Orleans or do you work on the North Shore? I have some property up there pretty close to you.


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## kkottemann (Jul 4, 2006)

Fireaxman,
I spent alot of time both on the southshore and northshore. I have been around the folsom area the last week. I was born in NO But live on some property near poplarville. 100 acres off of Hy 43. Crane work at the end of the week in poplarville then on to a large pine in mandeville. Cabling and bracing in folsom next week. All of this work is pending I find HELP!!!

Thanks for the advice on the construction job. I thought about that same tactic on larger tree services in the area but find it to be a morally wrong to do that to someone in the business. Now if I run into some guys at a safety training seminar or saw shop I would feel a little more comfortable talking than on some one else's job.


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## Shaun Bowler (Jul 4, 2006)

I have worked all over the western US.
In EVERY aspect of tree work.

If you want to get good people PAY THEM!
Pay is sick days, vacation, and medical benefits.
Otherwise, tell us why you got into business for yourself.
I think it is a crime that you are trolling for "Bottom Feeders".
Also, that you come to this site for sympathy. This work is hard, challenging, and GREAT!
I think what your question title should be is "How can I take advantage of people interested in tree work". LIKE I WAS!


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## clearance (Jul 4, 2006)

kkottemann said:


> Fireaxman,
> I spent alot of time both on the southshore and northshore. I have been around the folsom area the last week. I was born in NO But live on some property near poplarville. 100 acres off of Hy 43. Crane work at the end of the week in poplarville then on to a large pine in mandeville. Cabling and bracing in folsom next week. All of this work is pending I find HELP!!!
> 
> Thanks for the advice on the construction job. I thought about that same tactic on larger tree services in the area but find it to be a morally wrong to do that to someone in the business. Now if I run into some guys at a safety training seminar or saw shop I would feel a little more comfortable talking than on some one else's job.


If they are at a safety seminar or saw shop, they are most likely working for someone else anyways. If you walk up to a hardworking man and ask him to work for you for more money, he can ask his boss for a raise, either way it will be more money for him. Unsure why Shawn has taken a dislike to you, don't really know the going rate there, with exchange it sounds about the same as here for groundsmen. Out in the bush we make more, our groundsman gets $175 for a 61/2 hour day, I get $275 to climb. Do what you gotta do, sounds like you are in a jam, watching someone work when they don't know they are being watched is very valuable, worth more than a resume, talk, bs, etc. Might have to pony up more jake, whatever, good luck.


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## Husky372 (Jul 4, 2006)

Problem with hiring someone from another job for maybe a buck or 2 more is, he will leave you when better offer comes along. Best advice I can give is when you do find someone pay well and treat right.


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## Fireaxman (Jul 5, 2006)

kkottemann said:


> Fireaxman,
> I spent alot of time both on the southshore and northshore. I have been around the folsom area the last week. I was born in NO But live on some property near poplarville. 100 acres off of Hy 43..



Dang. Me and my brother got a hundred acres off 43, 16 miles North of Crossroads. You haven't moved in with Bill have you? I'm staying on the place in Madisonville, have not been up there in a few weeks.



kkottemann said:


> Thanks for the advice on the construction job. I thought about that same tactic on larger tree services in the area but find it to be a morally wrong to do that to someone in the business. Now if I run into some guys at a safety training seminar or saw shop I would feel a little more comfortable talking than on some one else's job.



Couple more thoughts. Drive around some of those hayfields and look for a farm boy. No rain, no hay, and if you can find one that's been handling square bails all his life he would be tickled to death to learn about easy money dragging brush. Farm boys are used to working around heavy equipment and they are not afraid of the heat.

Or, talk to some of the foresters up there about the pulp wood crews they've seen working. Most of the guys that have worked on my place were fresh out of prison, but one of the local foresters may have seen somebody who was really looking and working for a better opportunity. I expect a pulp wooder would be GLAD to get out of the woods right now, and he might even be able to run your bobcat for you. If he hasn't been working on a bobcat crew, he'ld be all the hapier to drag your brush instead of stackin' those sticks.


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## squisher (Jul 5, 2006)

Construction? That's a little suprising. Most construction I've seen takes two guys to do one mans work. Pay well good people will always go where the money is that's why people work. Tree work is tree work try to get people from silviculture or forestry because coming into the citys and working on level landscaped ground will seem like the walk in the park that it is.


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## Jumper (Jul 5, 2006)

Pay them well, provide benefits as an added incentive, and number one in my book, treat them the same way you yourself want to be treated. Yell and carry on over minute situations/problems, whip them like a beast of burden,or/and behave like a general jackass, I can just about gaurentee you will be looking for yet another groundperson. Behave like a rationale human being, offer to develop the person's abilities, etc and the person will want to stick around, provided there is a financial incentive to do so. There is a little sticky on the desk I inherited this week at my new job-"Avoid misunderstanding by calm, poise and balance"-good words to live your working day by, especially when dealing with subordinates. My last boss ( a nice guy most of the time BTW) liked to bark at inopportune times, and I finally got tired of the bite, and daily yap, especially at $12 an hour, given I now earn more than $60K a year. Good luck finding that employee.
Concur with clearance re the tard above.


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## kkottemann (Jul 5, 2006)

believe me when I tell ya'll I will absoulty treat my worker with respect. He will also be paid well for his work. I am not trying to get something for nothing. I just have had zero luck with finding someone (besides my temporary guys) who sticks. I have verbally hired two people who quit before their first scheduled day. Some people show potential but simply disappear. I know what it is like to be treated like a steak. I broke out with a very successful local company. I could not please the guy. I ran a crew as a climber and foreman. I also did a little phc for them. But at $12 per hour and a earfull of BS each and every week I decided to move on and promised my self that if I ever had the opportunity to do this for myself my guys would be treated like gold. I am not looking for sympathy, just advice. So far i've recieved some good stuff. Thanks for the replies.


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## John464 (Jul 5, 2006)

kkottemann said:


> All I need right now is groundsmen. $10 to $13.50 DOE is the pay offered. My only true requirement as of now is that they have a valid drivers licsense. Curently I am not offering any health insurance. Equipment includes: grapple truck, stump grinder, skidsteer, chipper, pickup tuck, saws and climbing gear.




for that position I recommend someone who was raised Latino(Mexican, Elsavadorian, Gautemalan, etc.). Ive found they have the strongest work ethic for this type of job. Yes they can be found w/ driver's Liscene and will normally outwork most American's loading wood, dragging brush etc. Sad, but true. They are lower to the ground which makes it easier for them to push wheel barrows and lift logs. They are loyal if you treat them right and will not go behind your back. $10-$12 is what they enjoy making and will work for you 10-12hrs a day


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## John464 (Jul 5, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Interesting statement John. We had a fellow working for us some years ago that was 5'5" tall and about 190 pounds and no body fat.. We would jokingly call him 'Tow Motor'. He could push and pull like a dozer.
> 
> Dan




of course there is is always exceptions. generally speaking , my statement makes a lot of sense, but not entirely. I have one mexican guy that is under 5ft, 120lbs who will push an 8 gallon double wheeled wheel barrow* overloaded* with pine logs up a hill loaded. not take a break excpect for water once in a while. and for lunch. Not any of my americans are that ambitious, nor want to do it, nor can do it for lengths my latino's can . most american's don't want the grunt work.

I myself employ a lot of Latino's. Davey Tree service who is also a very reuptable company has a statistic of 80% (Ibelieve) Latino workers. this is not a coincidence. there are strong supporting reasons why.


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## avalontree (Jul 5, 2006)

*do looks really matter?*

Obviously they do...But, I've worked with guys who are covered in tattoos...have 6 inch goattees...and chest that are even bigger than their guts...and the money comes in...If you do good work and get a good name, people will hire you..havin a nice truck helps and all, but you cant buy a reputation...

Let em pay you and say whatever they want. I guy i iknow used to say "Take their bullsh*t and take their money"...

Ya definity need you teeth, though
and tuckin in the shirt helps...
and being sober is always a plus


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## beowulf343 (Jul 5, 2006)

Kkottemann, here in NY we have something called the Boards of Cooperative Educational Services (BOCES). They teach kids who are not intellectually inclined, skills such as auto mechanics, welding, etc. One of the courses they teach is called conservation. They teach juniors and seniors several things such as basic operation of heavy equipment, tree id, running a chainsaw, felling trees, basic climbing techniques, etc. (emphasis on basic.) Probably half the guys working for the company I am employed at have graduated from this course. Of course not everyone coming through this course is worth it, but every now and then you can find a good worker who already knows some of the basics (predominately seems to be farm boys-after working in a haymow, everything else seems easy.) I don't know if there is anything like this where you are but it may be something you can check into.

You are right about respecting your workers. If you treat your groundies with respect, they will stay with you. Both my groundies have been on my crew for over four years and though they have been offered better money by other companies, part of the reason they stay is because I show them respect. And it it worth showing respect-it is nice having a crew that know what they are doing without you having to explain every step (take another wrap!) I have gotten so used to the way my guys work that I shudder to think about starting out with new groundies. And as a bonus, if you can keep a good crew together for a long period of time, your production rates go way up!


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## lazeyjack (Jul 5, 2006)

*you sir are a foolish employer*



Treeinnovator said:


> here's some words of wisdom:
> 
> (1) always hire people who are making less than what you are offering...ex: i hire from fast food and grocery stores.
> (2) create a social atmosphere. people will put up with less pay if they enjoy hanging out with the others. i tend to hire one guy and tell him to get his friends to come aboard. they seem to like this.
> ...



I never read such a bad post You do NOT deserve to be in Business
Please do not listen to this man
I employed men all my life, I picked intelligence and the will to work, I paid the highest rate in my field and paid em a bonus too I was insistant on their being punctual and honest, I was rewarded by loyalty, many of them staying up to 10 years
My advice, follow the above, pay peanuts get monkeys tree inovator, you are a user on people


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## kkottemann (Jul 5, 2006)

That is a good idea about the coop. I am not sure if a similar institution is offered down here, however that did give me the idea to go and talk to some local vocational schools and try my luck there. 

How about the latino issue. I would be gracious to hire a latino who will work. Of course he would need to speak english and be able to drive. Latinos are everywhere down here right now. I know there are places where you could drive up and get a few, but that makes me uneasy. How do you go about finding an legal. Are there migrant worker service companies to contact and find labor or do I have to go to home depot parking lot and go through a process of elimination? 

check out the pics.


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## kkottemann (Jul 5, 2006)

how do you post pictures


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## kkottemann (Jul 5, 2006)

damm, I tried to post a couple of pics but only one went through.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 5, 2006)

lazeyjack said:


> I never read such a bad post You do NOT deserve to be in Business
> Please do not listen to this man
> I employed men all my life, I picked intelligence and the will to work, I paid the highest rate in my field and paid em a bonus too I was insistant on their being punctual and honest, I was rewarded by loyalty, many of them staying up to 10 years
> My advice, follow the above, pay peanuts get monkeys tree inovator, you are a user on people


 
- if you pay employees too much, you are slowly financing their upstart, thus creating competition. sad, but true...want proof? take a poll. ask every treeco owner if they used to work for someone else.
- people are motivated in different ways. sure we all need money, but you'd be surprised how many people don't work strictly for the $$$. put them in an atmosphere they like and they will not need alot of money to work.


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## lazeyjack (Jul 5, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> - if you pay employees too much, you are slowly financing their upstart, thus creating competition. sad, but true...want proof? take a poll. ask every treeco owner if they used to work for someone else.
> - people are motivated in different ways. sure we all need money, but you'd be surprised how many people don't work strictly for the $$$. put them in an atmosphere they like and they will not need alot of money to work.





well you will not mind if I copy and paste you words of wisdom to the inland revenue or whatever they have over there, seeing as you make so much money, you can share it with them!!Consider it done. anyone who has the attitude you have, sooner or later, will crash and burn
Don,t make me laugh, poor people need money to live, we all do, you are trying to tell me that 8 dollars beats 20!! COULD YOU LIVE OF THAT, LESS TAX, And run a vehicle, and put some by for a rainy day?
And competion , nothing to be afraid of,competition means better service or fail


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## frashdog (Jul 5, 2006)

> here in NY we have something called the Boards of Cooperative Educational Services (BOCES). They teach kids who are not intellectually inclined, skills such as auto mechanics, welding, etc.


yup BOTARDS we call em. Sorry I think that's funny. 

Worse off is the A.R.C. True tards, buses with tinted windows, head strapped droolers. They work real cheap, hear some are real strong too, probably wouldn't trust one with a chainsaw though.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 5, 2006)

lazeyjack said:


> well you will not mind if I copy and paste you words of wisdom to the inland revenue or whatever they have over there, seeing as you make so much money, you can share it with them!!Consider it done. anyone who has the attitude you have, sooner or later, will crash and burn
> Don,t make me laugh, poor people need money to live, we all do, you are trying to tell me that 8 dollars beats 20!! COULD YOU LIVE OF THAT, LESS TAX, And run a vehicle, and put some by for a rainy day?
> And competion , nothing to be afraid of,competition means better service or fail



you must live richly.
entire US cities full of people live on low wages. take Orlando and Las Vegas for example. all those theme parks and hotels don't pay sh-t. in Orlando alone there are 1 million service workers living on $7/hr and they are fine. i lived off $8/hr for years with no problem.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 6, 2006)

frashdog said:


> yup BOTARDS we call em. Sorry I think that's funny.
> 
> Worse off is the A.R.C. True tards, buses with tinted windows, head strapped droolers. They work real cheap, hear some are real strong too, probably wouldn't trust one with a chainsaw though.


True, part of the boces program is dealing with the mentally challenged, but they also have alot of students who just hate school and thus don't apply themselves to their studies. This teaches them a skill they can use so they are not a drain on society.


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## spacemule (Jul 6, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> i lived off $8/hr for years with no problem.


They must've paid you too much. After all, you started your own company.


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## buff (Jul 6, 2006)

All of you have the same problem...finding good employees that will show up everyday. It is just not the tree business. This is a universal problem. Ninty percent of what shows up at your door are tattoo freeks who are full of drugs and alcohol. These people have never worked anywhere for longer than 15 minutes and that is all they intend on staying with you. They just want to work long enough to get caught up on their beer and drug money. Staying in your employ is not their goal. They do not even have sense enough to show up for work with a small cooler of personal drinks or even bring a lunch. Let alone show up with sufficient cigaretts to make it through the day. It is so much easier to beg money from you. Keeping workers is not about money, or even working conditions. I have always made an effort to create the best working conditions. In different capacities over the years I have hired people and paid them whatever they ask for and usually a little more. I have hired people for the pay they ask for and then had them not even show up for the first day of work. They come looking for work and seem surprised when the find it. If you can not figure these people out it is because you are always thinking about what makes sense to you. The trouble with this is that you have a normal psychology and they do not. You work to the maximum. They work to the minimum. If you pay a worker more, they will not work more or show up for work any more often. In fact, they will too often work less and show up less. If they get $50 extra in their pocket they do not feel the need to work the next day or the day after that. You do not have time for personal business during the work day. However, your employees believe that personal business can only be taken care of between 8:00am and 5:00pm. There is no limit to the useless excuses they can create to leave in the middle of the day. This is why employers too often will look for illegals to fill their needs. These people will show up and treat your work like a real job.


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## Grande Dog (Jul 6, 2006)

I would think that if you treated people the way you would like to be treated, you would eventually get the employee you wanted and they would get the employer they wanted.


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## buff (Jul 6, 2006)

You must be new at hiring people. I have always provided the best working conditions. But that will not improve on the parade of drunks and drug addicts that represents almost all of the blue collar jobs today. Some want to pretend that there is something else different going on in their area and especially on their job. But it is not.


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## Grande Dog (Jul 6, 2006)

I did say eventually.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 6, 2006)

buff said:


> All of you have the same problem...finding good employees that will show up everyday. It is just not the tree business. This is a universal problem. Ninty percent of what shows up at your door are tattoo freeks who are full of drugs and alcohol. These people have never worked anywhere for longer than 15 minutes and that is all they intend on staying with you. They just want to work long enough to get caught up on their beer and drug money. Staying in your employ is not their goal. They do not even have sense enough to show up for work with a small cooler of personal drinks or even bring a lunch. Let alone show up with sufficient cigaretts to make it through the day. It is so much easier to beg money from you. Keeping workers is not about money, or even working conditions. I have always made an effort to create the best working conditions. In different capacities over the years I have hired people and paid them whatever they ask for and usually a little more. I have hired people for the pay they ask for and then had them not even show up for the first day of work. They come looking for work and seem surprised when the find it. If you can not figure these people out it is because you are always thinking about what makes sense to you. The trouble with this is that you have a normal psychology and they do not. You work to the maximum. They work to the minimum. If you pay a worker more, they will not work more or show up for work any more often. In fact, they will too often work less and show up less. If they get $50 extra in their pocket they do not feel the need to work the next day or the day after that. You do not have time for personal business during the work day. However, your employees believe that personal business can only be taken care of between 8:00am and 5:00pm. There is no limit to the useless excuses they can create to leave in the middle of the day. This is why employers too often will look for illegals to fill their needs. These people will show up and treat your work like a real job.



holy crap Buff, you just described the work ethic of all the 20 something yr olds i've hired before. 
race hasn't been much of a factor in my experience...sure some are better workers than others, but the real factor seems to be age. the 20-something boomer kids (generation Y) are so used to sitting on their fat butts all day playing ******** and Sega video games that they forgotten what work is. they grew up around dot.coms, daytrading, and RE investing stories where all you had to do is take a test and come out of college (partying) to earn $80,000 the first day. i've found that they are a generation full of whiney little whimps. i refuse to hire anyone from the ages 20 to 29 knowing they will drag down the other workers, drink my bottled water, and talk on their new cellphone every 10 minutes.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jul 6, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> so used to sitting on their fat butts all day playing ******** and Sega video games that they forgotten what work is.




Wrong.


They never knew.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 6, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Wrong.
> 
> 
> They never knew.



LOL you're right ...thanks for the correction


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## buff (Jul 6, 2006)

Looks like some of us know the reality of hiring people. If you do not hire under thirty, how about those over thirty? Most of them have found a place to fall down by then and are all crippled up or receive crazy checks. The thing that I choke on is that all of these drunk, dope heads are somebody's father.


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## Fireaxman (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re-sized pict*



kkottemann said:


> how do you post pictures


KK, Resized this for you to make it easier for us dial ups. 70 to 100k usually gives enough resolution to make the point.

You may have figured it out, but the process is:
1. "Manage Attachments" under "Additional Options" header just below the "Reply" screen
2. "Browse" button
3. Click the drop down arrow on the "Look In" box
4. Change directories to locate your file
5. Highlight your file
6. Click the "Open" button
7. Click "Upload"
8. Close the box. You should see your attachment appear at the top of the "Manage Attachments" box when you get back to the forum reply screen.

Ooops - forgot an important step before number 1. Use PictureIt or something to re-size those meg plus files, out of mercy for us dial-ups.

By the way, really nice piece of equipment.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 6, 2006)

buff said:


> Looks like some of us know the reality of hiring people. If you do not hire under thirty, how about those over thirty? Most of them have found a place to fall down by then and are all crippled up or receive crazy checks. The thing that I choke on is that all of these drunk, dope heads are somebody's father.



30 to 40 are good hard workers. the best employees are the pre-20yr olds. these kids will work circles around everyone else. full of energy, never complain, never got paid "real" wages so don't know what other tree companies pay, and show up everyday on time.

true story:
this one 18yr old lifted truckloads full of 200lb chunks by himself. the kind that the 20yr olds would make me chop up into smaller pieces. anyways, he busted his a-- all day for a week straight. when i bumped him up a dollar to $9/hr for the hard work, he thought he died and gone to heaven. he went home and bragged to his friends and family. this kid was previously making $6/hr at his other jobs before i hired him.


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## kkottemann (Jul 6, 2006)

fireaxman,
I got the uploading figured out, but i still need to figrue out how to shrink the pic.

That crane is not mine. But it is a beast. It belongs to a local co. He is the only guy I use. I had a few close calls with so other guys. It is a 22 ton with 120' of boom. If I can get him close enough he can take 60-70 footers in one shot. 

I'll try another pic.


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## Jumper (Jul 6, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> when i bumped him up a dollar to $9/hr for the hard work, he thought he died and gone to heaven. he went home and bragged to his friends and family. this kid was previously making $6/hr at his other jobs before i hired him.



So is he still with you, or did he move on to a $10/hr job. Lifting 200 lbs by ones self without MHE is a sure fire way to blow out one's back IMHO. Your 20 year old workers have learned common sence wrt lifting things, plus likely a few labour laws regarding what exactly a single individual is supposed to life on his/her own.


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## SmokinDodge (Jul 6, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> holy crap Buff, you just described the work ethic of all the 20 something yr olds i've hired before.
> race hasn't been much of a factor in my experience...sure some are better workers than others, but the real factor seems to be age. the 20-something boomer kids (generation Y) are so used to sitting on their fat butts all day playing ******** and Sega video games that they forgotten what work is. they grew up around dot.coms, daytrading, and RE investing stories where all you had to do is take a test and come out of college (partying) to earn $80,000 the first day. i've found that they are a generation full of whiney little whimps. i refuse to hire anyone from the ages 20 to 29 knowing they will drag down the other workers, drink my bottled water, and talk on their new cellphone every 10 minutes.



Try hiring someone that doesn't work at KMart, tard. You aren't going to attract many VALUABLE employees at $8 an hour so why are you suprised that you don't get much out of them?


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## beowulf343 (Jul 6, 2006)

Just my two cents:
I'd much rather work with a 50 year old with 30 years of experience in the tree business than an 18 year old fresh from mcdonalds. The 50 year old may be a bit slower but he knows a ton of shortcuts that make the job easier and thus gets it done faster.

Oh wait a minute, I'm only 28 so I don't know the first thing about hard work.


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## buff (Jul 6, 2006)

I am sure you are right but a 50 year old is too old to pull limbs and grunt over chunks all day. In addition to being 50, they will usually have something wore out, damaged or defective that limits their productivity. A 50 year old that has never had a better job and can not get one may not be a good candidate for your job too. And think about it. The only 50 year old with thrity years in the tree business in your organization will eventually be you.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 6, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Just my two cents:
> I'd much rather work with a 50 year old with 30 years of experience in the tree business than an 18 year old fresh from mcdonalds. The 50 year old may be a bit slower but he knows a ton of shortcuts that make the job easier and thus gets it done faster.
> 
> Oh wait a minute, I'm only 28 so I don't know the first thing about hard work.



if you are in the business 30 years and don't own your own company by then...well...


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## frashdog (Jul 6, 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by frashdog
> yup BOTARDS we call em. Sorry I think that's funny.
> 
> ...


true that. They do have some worthwile programs.


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## Sprig (Jul 6, 2006)

*WTF, high jacked thread?*

Ya'll must know, treated right, payed right, creates loyalty= money. So many good posts here about this, grats and goodonya. To the others I have this to say. This pos attitude about 'pay 'em as cheap as they'll come' finally got a post out of me. I am considered a fair man in my circles and when I had my own salvage co. at 19yrs payed more than what some suggest here as today's wages; this is over thirty years ago btw for those to lazy to check peep's profiles. Buncha druken bums they were, fun and worked their guts out, hey, fair to me starts at 100$ a day min. for 6-8hrs no questions. To base ones wages on what others are ripping people off for is unconscionable, on race or culture no better. Fer cripes sakes! If that is what it means to make a living I'd rather be poor than work for a using person. Humans desreve better than that imho. Though the wages here aren't much better than down south for K-mart type stuff there is not anyone worth their weight in pinecones that would do ground work for under 15$ an hour up here, completely insured of course etc.. These are men, so it becomes un-necessary to hire many others at low wages to do the work these people will, when payed right. My last ground job (a huge dougy (120ft 200yr old between houses) took 6rhs max and I walked away with 25+ and hour easily, 8yrs ago. Oh, the water was free, as was lunch and afterwork brews. OMG> It is my experience that says pay 'em great and make them work well out of gratitude. It will always be a 'wheat from chaffe' thing but once you get a good crew there is no better thing, lean, smart, hungry machines happy with their work. Who gives a sht if they learn and leave, the dumber you are the sooner they'll leave, the worse the comp.. You get someone though that has learned a great deal then they deserve to get out on their own if they can and the best you could do is support them (especially if there is tons of work out there in your area) and not look at it as a detriment but an asset.
It could be a consideration that it may not be a case of the people who are being hired, but the folks hiring.

 Serge


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## buff (Jul 6, 2006)

I am sorry but we just do not live in the same universe.


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## Sprig (Jul 6, 2006)

That is okay, didn't think living in xxx was any fun anyhow. 

Sorry 'bout your luck buff.

:rockn:


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

Sprig said:


> fair to me starts at 100$ a day min. for 6-8hrs no questions. These are men, so it becomes un-necessary to hire many others at low wages to do the work these people will, when payed right.  Serge


I feel its an insult for me to pay below $15 an hour. 'Course, I expect a guy to follow my pace, not his own. At the end of day 1 he either likes the work or not. There's really no sugarcoating the job duties: you're there to pick up sticks. Not glorious, but this is the minimum requirement. And for 15 an hour I DO expect you to be a good stick picker upper.


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## Sprig (Jul 6, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> I feel its an insult for me to pay below $15 an hour. 'Course, I expect a guy to follow my pace, not his own. At the end of day 1 he either likes the work or not. There's really no sugarcoating the job duties: you're there to pick up sticks. Not glorious, but this is the minimum requirement. And for 15 an hour I DO expect you to be a good stick picker upper.


Thanks treemachine, agree, its part of the job man!


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## clearance (Jul 6, 2006)

buff said:


> I am sorry but we just do not live in the same universe.


Your attitude sucks, I would never work for you, loser boss for sure. You do not deserve good help, you want perfection, ha ha, I have worked with guys that had tattoos, alcohol and drug users, with other "defects" (long criminal records, many girlfriends/wives etc.) that outworked "decent" young men half thier age, made them look bad at everything from dragging brush to sharpening saws. Where did you get that name Buff, from dealing, you know, buff in the product, cutting it, stepping on it?


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

Can we, uh, stay on topic.... ?


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## buff (Jul 6, 2006)

CLEARENCE......Once get off of parole and off drugs, the world will look different to you too. Unfortunately, the description of the crew you are a part of is universal.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

...Gentlemen.......!


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

Puh-leazze.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

Knock it


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

The fock


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2006)

off.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 7, 2006)

What was the topic again? Oh yeah, hiring employees. Kkottemann, this may sound a little strange but bear with me. I ran into a friend of mine today who own his own small tree company. We got to talking and he told me he found some great employees. A local manufacturing company was downsizing and they put a bunch of guys on early retirement(they're in their early to mid fifties.) A couple of them put in applications for part time work to just help them supplement their income. So he tried them out and he loved the way they worked out. They only want part time so instead of two groundies for six days he has eight different guys he uses over the six days. They are always on time, always show up, and are not afraid of working. I asked what he does about heavy lifting and he brought up an interesting point. On a crew with the proper equipment, what heavy lifting is there even on removals? If the branch is too big to drag either cut it down to size or winch it into the chipper. And for the chunks, they simply use a peevey to roll them to the side and he cames back later with a prentice and dump and picks the chunks up. It has seemed to work out extemely well for him.


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## kkottemann (Jul 7, 2006)

beowulf,
Thanks for the idea. I'll have to put some feelers out on that one. I tried to attract a couple of part timers but all I got to respond to that ad was toothless meth heads. I guess sometimes you really have to get lucky and be in the right place at the right time to find good help. My next try will be at an offshore heliport. I worked offshore to pay for school off and on for 5 years. All the guys who I worked with out there would come back and hustle various jobs. Mabe I could attract some decent help by posting a help wanted ad there. I could possible get a few guys rotating from the rigs to make some extra coin on their time off. Unfortunatly I lost all contact with the people I used to know out there.


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## Jumper (Jul 8, 2006)

That might be worth a try. I am retired military and in between other employment work in the tree service industry. I can not outperform a 20 year old in good shape, but I can and do drag brush and lift heavy hunks into the truck. The really big stuff, use a heavy duty dolly and get home help with the lifting. As I mentioned before it is just plain negligent to expect even an 18 year old to hump 200 lb chunks by himself with no MHE, and certainly against the law here in Ontario. There are so many pieces of equipment out there that make a groundsman's life easier, eg Goods, dollies etc, some people just do not want to invest in their operation I guess.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 8, 2006)

Jumper said:


> it is just plain negligent to expect even an 18 year old to hump 200 lb chunks by himself with no MHE, and certainly against the law here in Ontario. There are so many pieces of equipment out there that make a groundsman's life easier, eg Goods, dollies etc, some people just do not want to invest in their operation I guess.



more equipment to help groundies = higher overhead = higher prices = less customers = less $$$ in my pocket. i don't like that formula very much. besides, i've put it in their head that they are getting a work out and not having to pay for a gym membership. seems to work too.


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## Jumper (Jul 8, 2006)

I'd argue that having such equipment would make you or your climber more productive, and result in more revenue. Your approach does not seem very innovative to me! You could save money and gas by getting rid of all your chainsaws and use handsaws instead! I also would think your employees would want to contribute to an organization that is equiped with the best out there, and might also indicate to them that your really give a hoot about more than the bottom line. The Goods is a prime example, many removals are much much quicker using it.


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## spacemule (Jul 8, 2006)

Jumper said:


> You could save money and gas by getting rid of all your chainsaws and use handsaws instead!


Why throw all that money away by buying handsaws? All you need is a good flat file. Train the groundies to grind their teeth to points, and they can then knaw their way through the wood. Think of all the money you'll save!!


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## darkstar (Jul 8, 2006)

Sprig said:


> Ya'll must know, treated right, payed right, creates loyalty= money. So many good posts here about this, grats and goodonya. To the others I have this to say. This pos attitude about 'pay 'em as cheap as they'll come' finally got a post out of me. I am considered a fair man in my circles and when I had my own salvage co. at 19yrs payed more than what some suggest here as today's wages; this is over thirty years ago btw for those to lazy to check peep's profiles. Buncha druken bums they were, fun and worked their guts out, hey, fair to me starts at 100$ a day min. for 6-8hrs no questions. To base ones wages on what others are ripping people off for is unconscionable, on race or culture no better. Fer cripes sakes! If that is what it means to make a living I'd rather be poor than work for a using person. Humans desreve better than that imho. Though the wages here aren't much better than down south for K-mart type stuff there is not anyone worth their weight in pinecones that would do ground work for under 15$ an hour up here, completely insured of course etc.. These are men, so it becomes un-necessary to hire many others at low wages to do the work these people will, when payed right. My last ground job (a huge dougy (120ft 200yr old between houses) took 6rhs max and I walked away with 25+ and hour easily, 8yrs ago. Oh, the water was free, as was lunch and afterwork brews. OMG> It is my experience that says pay 'em great and make them work well out of gratitude. It will always be a 'wheat from chaffe' thing but once you get a good crew there is no better thing, lean, smart, hungry machines happy with their work. Who gives a sht if they learn and leave, the dumber you are the sooner they'll leave, the worse the comp.. You get someone though that has learned a great deal then they deserve to get out on their own if they can and the best you could do is support them (especially if there is tons of work out there in your area) and not look at it as a detriment but an asset.
> It could be a consideration that it may not be a case of the people who are being hired, but the folks hiring.
> 
> Serge


 AMEN TO THAT< I pay 20 an hour but my men deserve near 50 . The s???eating competition that lames around schrounging for a tree job asking for money up front; likely spiking limb removals on historic old oaks , makes it damn near impossible to pay more in my area .

The state helps alot to keep wages low ,they consider a skilled climber nothing more than a laborer. Workmans comp is not even required by law unless you have at least 5 full time year round on the clock employees.:bang: :bang: :bang:


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## kkottemann (Jul 8, 2006)

I am 29 years old. I do not like to stuggle anymore than I have to, so I do not expect any one that works for me to strugle any more than they have to. I have a grapple truck, skidsteer and two log dollies to move heavy wood. Anyone of any age would be able to work on my job if they have the interest to do so. My next chipper will have a grapple on it to feed the machiene. I do realize the extra expense of this, but like the idea of taking the man away from the infeed as well as saving some back breaking work creating a more productive and more safe work environment. 
The big company I started out with made us lift the heavy wood into the back of the chiptruck. The owner was always preaching to us about production and how to be more productive. One day he was yapping to me about something I did that related to production and I posed the question. How productive is it to have your crew cut 50 inch water oak trunk into a managable piece that two men can life 4 feet into the back of a loaded chip truck, not to mention the wear and tear on saws and chain? He never answered me. Hey boss, how about a skidsteer!!!!! 
We had one he just did not let it go out all the time.

On another note. I drove by a lowes and shell station this morning. Both were loaded with latinos looking for work. What do Ya'll think. Should I pull in there and try my luck or what.


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## Shaun Bowler (Jul 8, 2006)

At this time I do not have time to respond as I would like to.
However, I want you to know that I am 47 years old.
I work out every day, I have physical issues. 
I would like to tell anyone who thinks there is some correlation between age and product is very immature.:deadhorse:


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 8, 2006)

Shaun Bowler said:


> At this time I do not have time to respond as I would like to.
> However, I want you to know that I am 47 years old.
> I work out every day, I have physical issues.
> I would like to tell anyone who thinks there is some correlation between age and product is very immature.:deadhorse:



there's a factual and statistical reason why medical insurance, disability insurance, and life insurance ALL increase in cost as you get older. i'd work your a-- into the ground if you were on my crew.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 8, 2006)

Yeah you're right, fixing sprinkler systems all day would wear anyone out in no time.


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## coydog (Jul 9, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> there's a factual and statistical reason why medical insurance, disability insurance, and life insurance ALL increase in cost as you get older. i'd work your a-- into the ground if you were on my crew.


reban this joker mods


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## Jumper (Jul 9, 2006)

Ditto


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 9, 2006)

coydog said:


> reban this joker mods



that wasn't meant as a harsh or jerk comment. it was meant in a joking way. if it was taken that way, i apologize. 

i work my crew really hard. they probably lift more weight per chunk than most other tree companies. i'm simply saying... in general, a guy who's 47 stands less of a chance (statistically) of outlasting a 19 yr old athlete-built groundie.


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## coydog (Jul 9, 2006)

...and all I was saying was this:

rule#18. If you are banned or suspended from ArboristSite.com you are not permitted to register under a new name. Only one user name per person is permitted. All additional user names or new user names without permission from ArboristSite.com will be deleted from the system.


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## Fireaxman (Jul 9, 2006)

kkottemann said:


> ... My next try will be at an offshore heliport. I worked offshore to pay for school off and on for 5 years. All the guys who I worked with out there would come back and hustle various jobs. Mabe I could attract some decent help by posting a help wanted ad there. I could possible get a few guys rotating from the rigs to make some extra coin on their time off. Unfortunatly I lost all contact with the people I used to know out there.



KK, I think you've got a really good idea there. Look for someone working a regular 7/7 hitch with one of the majors, catch somebody on A crew and somebody on B crew. If you can find someone from one of the majors, they will already be doing the drug testing and a lot of the screening for you. Be careful of the "Contractors". Many of them work odd shifts (21/7) and/or keep their people offshore unexpectedly when a "Relief" doesn't show up.

I was a supervisor offshore for a major for 20 some odd years. Although my company had a policy against side jobs, I suspect many of my better employees picked up extra work on their days off. I did not investigate. One of the guys that worked for me actually left a good paying job offshore and started his own tree business in Mississippi.

I've been retired for 6 years now, but a trip to Venice or Leeville might pay dividends.

About Latinos - be careful. I worked a bunch of illegal immigrants on a seismic crew in Michigan 30 years ago. Buddy, they WORKED! Had to, in Lansing in the winter with only the rags they brought from Mexico. I bought them boots and gloves out of my pay, the little contract outfit we were working for didn't have a budget for it. But the language barriers were formidable, and I only had to teach them to stick seismophones in the ice in a streight line. I would hate to be up a tree trying to explain something to a Mexican groundie over a background noise of chain saws and chippers. 

Also, they were very good for 6 months to a year or so, but they sent 9 cents out of every dime back to Mexico and then went home as soon as they had enough to "retire". And, they really are putting a strain on our social services. A nurse from the charity hospital in New Orleans was complaining to me last week what a burden they are putting on the health care system, without any contributions through Social Security. I would not want to encourage that.


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## kkottemann (Jul 10, 2006)

Fireaxman,
I really do not want to give a job to an illegal. I realize the social implications hiring one will have on our system. I am just stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. I did post a question a couple days ago if anyone knew how to go about finding a legal migrant worker and thus far have had no response. I personally wouldn't know where to look. I even registered my company with the unemployment office, so far no response. I guess I have to keep in mind I am located in an area that is in utter chaos right now. 61% of the population is gone, nobody knows whether to rebuild or just go, and fema and other associations are literally handing out money and free housing right now. Burger king is paying $11 per hour plus a singing bonus. So much for that old saying that there is no such thing as a free lunch. I actually might be going to do some fema work. They need another crew on the northshore. I have been talking to one of the quality control managers. He has some guys with the will but no equipment, one is a climber. He has set up a meeting for us tomorrow. This might be a break. Fema needs a crew, need a crew. I get the guys, fema gets the crew + six weeks of work from me and hopfully the guys will stick.


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## Fireaxman (Jul 10, 2006)

*FEMA Feedback*

I'm getting some Really Bad feedback on FEMA from homeowners here on the North Shore. My church has had a work request in for them for 3 months and no sign of any response. I finally took down the most dangerous hangers for them as an offering, but I have plenty to do if FEMA will finally take care of the rest of them.

Worse, I have a close freind in Mandeville that has had work marked for them for a couple of months. Crews have been out there 3 times and still have not removed the first limb. Each time they come out, they find an unmarked limb that needs to be removed. The supervisor on sight doesn't have enough authority to approve the change, so he/she calls out other supervisors. According to my freind, 3 additional levels of "Supervisor" have been called out, and still no work done. The last one decided they need a crane, and wont start any work untill all equipment is on sight. I've seen the work of course. Any good climber could do it easily, maybe 1 day at the outside for a climber, a groundie, and a chipper. A few pieces would have to be controlled.

Meantime, the crew is standing by with their hands in their pockets. According to my freind, they are being paid on piece work. No Piece, No Pay. So, they are starving to death while FEMA plays beaurocracy.


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## elmnut (Jul 10, 2006)

Hey did you ever think of contacting colleges that offer arboriculture, forestry, horticulture, etc... Most have a career day or job fair. These are people that have an interest in our industry. By the way I went through a BOCES course, I did not like math. I was awarded a scholarship to attend Paul Smith's College of the Adirondacks were I was introduced to modern arboriculture. I now manage a successful tree care company. I work with my people, they don't work for me, everything is a team effort. Goals are established to determine raises etc.. 
Karma has a way of coming back on people that make jokes about the handicapped. They did not ask to be challenged.


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