# Enough



## logging22 (Apr 19, 2013)

How many of you pro loggers have had enough? I just sold my skidder, cutting just a few days a week now. I think i like it better. Just cutting and no worries. Dont buy fuel, or parts, or anything.

How many of you guys have had enough??:msp_unsure:


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## Gologit (Apr 19, 2013)

logging22 said:


> How many of you pro loggers have had enough? I just sold my skidder, cutting just a few days a week now. I think i like it better. Just cutting and no worries. Dont buy fuel, or parts, or anything.
> 
> How many of you guys have had enough??:msp_unsure:



Had enough? Which time? :msp_biggrin:


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## logging22 (Apr 19, 2013)

I guess thats what im asking. When is enough? Its just getting to be too much.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm itch'n to go right now... need to finish painting the skidder change the oil, then send her out to start making money... then there is that whole waiting for the dirt to dry up thing...

come August ask me again and I might be talking about selling the skidder...


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## logging22 (Apr 19, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm itch'n to go right now... need to finish painting the skidder change the oil, then send her out to start making money... then there is that whole waiting for the dirt to dry up thing...
> 
> come August ask me again and I might be talking about selling the skidder...



I just dont itch any more.


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## madhatte (Apr 19, 2013)

I think there might be a song about it...


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## slowp (Apr 19, 2013)

madhatte said:


> I think there might be a song about it...



There's one about the choker setter getting tired of the rain, I think. 

I'm sick of settin chokers in this doggone rain...and so forth.


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2013)

logging22 said:


> I guess thats what im asking. When is enough? Its just getting to be too much.



Work however you're comfortable. Having a big outfit isn't always better than just being out there by yourself. There's nothing wrong in working for wages. I've done it a lot.

I've let the business grow a couple of times and wound up with more people and machinery than I really wanted. I had good employees for the most part and I was lucky with my machinery but the level of income didn't match the level of aggravation. 

I spent most of my time on the phone or dealing with a lot of people that I really didn't want to have anything to do with. The bigger you get the bigger commitment you make in your personal time and your energy. Pretty soon you don't have the business, the business has you. 

I've had better luck, and been much happier, staying small. I think that a guy has a better chance of having more control over his life and how much stress he allows into it if he keeps things simple.

I'm not preaching any of this and if a guy wants to run a big outfit, more power to him. It just isn't what works for me or what I want to do anymore.

And, being small, there's one hell of a lot less paperwork, too.


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## Humptulips (Apr 20, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm itch'n to go right now... need to finish painting the skidder change the oil, then send her out to start making money... then there is that whole waiting for the dirt to dry up thing...
> 
> come August ask me again and I might be talking about selling the skidder...



Wait a minute, Paint? Skidder? Not sure I understand.


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## Spotted Owl (Apr 20, 2013)

Humptulips said:


> Wait a minute, Paint? Skidder? Not sure I understand.



One good photograph.

I think the only times I've seen good paint is on the lot or at the show. I think the set them under the conveyers at the rock pit before they send them out to the side. That's just my theory. Even brand new they roll off the lowboy rusted, scratched and beat up don't they?



Owl


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2013)

Spotted Owl said:


> One good photograph.
> 
> I think the only times I've seen good paint is on the lot or at the show. I think the set them under the conveyers at the rock pit before they send them out to the side. That's just my theory. Even brand new they roll off the lowboy rusted, scratched and beat up don't they?
> 
> ...



Not always. Some times they don't even make on the lowbed before they get dinged. A few years ago I bought a brand new skidder, a little Cat, and it was shiny new and didn't have a mark on it.

I was in the dealer's office signing my life away for it when I heard the crash. The lowbed driver, instead of dropping the gooseneck on the trailer, tried to hop it on over the back. I guess he didn't aim quite right 'cause it hung up, started hopping, and went over sideways.
It didn't hurt it too bad but it sure scratched up that shiny yellow paint.

I looked at the dealer and said "discount?" He said "Sure...just as soon as I shoot the lowbed driver".


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## 4x4American (Apr 20, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm itch'n to go right now... need to finish painting the skidder change the oil, then send her out to start making money... then there is that whole waiting for the dirt to dry up thing...
> 
> come August ask me again and I might be talking about selling the skidder...



you're paintin the missus eh? you stickin with the yellow or you gonna switch it up?


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## deepsouth (Apr 20, 2013)

At least you have an industry. 

Locally in Tasmania, it's been killed by green groups and government, along with their industry "exit" packages. 

And then, poor design makes them wonder why a relative of the original owner starts a business having bought (in the books) the original gear, with the former business owner on wages in some cases. 

And seeing as they are still trying to lock up some 500,000 odd hectares of forest, and world heritage list a fair chunk of that on to of about 1/4 of the state already being national park..... It will be hard to have a viable industry by many reports.....

Here's a map
http://www.environment.gov.au/land/forests/pubs/tas-forest-agreement-reserves-map.pdf

Relevance to heading - heaps, content minimal?

But as a tax advisor to this industry - I wonder what will be available for the future for this renewable industry here?


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## slowp (Apr 20, 2013)

I think you should paint flames on it. I've seen real flames on skidders, but never painted flames. 

Sometimes equipment gets painted on the job. But it doesn't look very good and may be offensive.


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## bitzer (Apr 20, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Work however you're comfortable. Having a big outfit isn't always better than just being out there by yourself. There's nothing wrong in working for wages. I've done it a lot.
> 
> I've let the business grow a couple of times and wound up with more people and machinery than I really wanted. I had good employees for the most part and I was lucky with my machinery but the level of income didn't match the level of aggravation.
> 
> ...




Yep this is one thing I've been worrying about getting a crew together. The wear and tear on the machine and the loss of freedom I have now. I can come and go as I please and don't have to worry about anyone else. I toss it back and forth daily. I know I could put more wood on the landing and probably make a little more, but it may not be worth the effort in the end. Just like getting into the business in the first place though, I'll never know until I try it.


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## floyd (Apr 20, 2013)

When this old teamster friend heard I was selling my teams he asked me this

What's wrong? Is the pleasure no longer worth the pain?


All I could do was nod my head.


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Yep this is one thing I've been worrying about getting a crew together. The wear and tear on the machine and the loss of freedom I have now. I can come and go as I please and don't have to worry about anyone else. I toss it back and forth daily. I know I could put more wood on the landing and probably make a little more, but it may not be worth the effort in the end. Just like getting into the business in the first place though, I'll never know until I try it.



Yup, give it a try. That way you'll know for sure.

On the money end of things I found out that increased production didn't always mean increased net profits. More machinery and people equal an increased cost of doing business. Always.

At the end of the year what I could actually put in my pocket and call mine was always surprisingly little. Don't get me wrong, I did alright...but it wasn't the huge bucks that a lot of people thought. After all was said and done I was making about what I would have if I'd been running jobs for somebody else.

As you've no doubt already discovered a guy with a small business pays himself last, after everything and everybody else is paid. Sometimes he doesn't pay himself much 'cause there isn't much left. 

Getting a good crew is hard but it can be done... in time. Keeping a good crew is what's hard. Most guys have a rough time adapting to the logging lifestyle. Unless a guy has been around logging for awhile and understands the transient nature of the work he's probably not going to like it. 
And if you can't provide enough steady work for your guys to make a living they'll drift away. If you're constantly hiring new people you're going to be spending time training them. Time spent in training pays off long term but short term it's expensive and production suffers. If I had to continually train new people I couldn't make a go of it...simple as that. The margins are slim enough that if production suffers I might not be able to pick up the slack that a new guy causes for quite a while.

I'm lucky where I am in that I know enough experienced guys that if I need to put a crew together I have good people to choose from. There's always a few guys around who are looking for work...sometimes more than a few. That statement, in itself, is a comment on this business. There are always more guys available than there are steady jobs. Always.
If you have a pool of experienced guys who want to go logging you might be alright but if you have to train a whole new crew from scratch you better stock up on Excedrin and Rolaids.


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## husqvarnaguy (Apr 20, 2013)

Sold our stuff a long time ago. Bought a small machine for little jobs a year ago and have not had one job yet.:msp_mad:


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

I am trying it. I bought a small dozer with a winch (many guys around here have a dozer on site anyway). I figured if I am not pulling wood i am doing dozer work which so far has worked out well. I have only done one small job (a 20 acre piece) and have 3 more to go look at. I like the small pieces with good timber as I can go in by myself and cut a load or 2 a day...minimal expenses just not as much production as a skidder. But it works for me. I might get a skidder in the furture and I am thinking a timber jack 225 would be great.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 20, 2013)

i'm not sure how it is everywhere else ,but a few of the established logging guys i know ,that have good crews have a year or 2 of jobs lined up right now ,most of the smaller companies around here gave up over the last few years ,so the competition for works not as great ,down town there is a lot of export wood waiting to go to china right now ,logging with skidders isn't very common anymore except on smaller jobs you may see one ,seems like you need a yarder ,shovel and a processer head to get jobs anymore


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## Samlock (Apr 20, 2013)

I had a mate here who had three mechanized logging outfits cutting timber. He had just married, bought a nice house. He had expanding plans. On his own birthday he shot himself in the head. Out of the blue. After his death it appeared his business had nearly fallen apart. Expenses ate his business away. Nobody knew. He kept it all to himself. Everyone, including me, thought he was doing alright. He was an extremely dutiful person and loyal to his people. I guess that's what killed him. He took it too seriously. He couldn't just laugh on it and say, ok, I screwed, don't be too angry to me, I quit. I wish he had. A flat broke buddy is better than a dead buddy.

Knowing when it's time to walk away before someone gets hurt is indeed the most important skill in logging.


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

I wish my former boss knew when to walk away. He had a burgeoning chipping business. We would chip 1000 ton a week sometimes 1500 per week. When the main customers orders declined most people would back off. But he decided to buy another chipper to send down south to chip for another customer which turned out to be non exsistent. So all in all with 1.4 million in debt the doors closed. I dont miss the crazy madhouse bs.. I miss the guys I worked with they are like brothers.


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2013)

Samlock said:


> I had a mate here who had three mechanized logging outfits cutting timber. He had just married, bought a nice house. He had expanding plans. On his own birthday he shot himself in the head. Out of the blue. After his death it appeared his business had nearly fallen apart. Expenses ate his business away. Nobody knew. He kept it all to himself. Everyone, including me, thought he was doing alright. He was an extremely dutiful person and loyal to his people. I guess that's what killed him. He took it too seriously. He couldn't just laugh on it and say, ok, I screwed, don't be too angry to me, I quit. I wish he had. A flat broke buddy is better than a dead buddy.
> 
> Knowing when it's time to walk away before someone gets hurt is indeed the most important skill in logging.



Well said.


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> i'm not sure how it is everywhere else ,but a few of the established logging guys i know ,that have good crews have a year or 2 of jobs lined up right now ,most of the smaller companies around here gave up over the last few years ,so the competition for works not as great ,down town there is a lot of export wood waiting to go to china right now ,logging with skidders isn't very common anymore except on smaller jobs you may see one ,seems like you need a yarder ,shovel and a processer head to get jobs anymore



I am on the east coast so skidders are very common here. I have never seen a yarder here on the east coast.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 20, 2013)

Humptulips said:


> Wait a minute, Paint? Skidder? Not sure I understand.



I figure paint is like a tarp to keep the rust slowed down... not doing a full restoration here just making her a little pretty for her first day on the job after 9 years of retirement...

Its not like I'm going to bother painting the bottom or anything, besides rattle cans are cheap

These pics where take'n a week before She came home...


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## northmanlogging (Apr 20, 2013)

and a clean and mostly painted skidder... (it rains a lot out here...)


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## plasticweld (Apr 20, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Had enough? Which time? :msp_biggrin:



I have quit more than once and then got back into it while doing something else, to be honest I never really made money at logging when it was my only business, today it is only one of three. I do have plenty of work already bought, and markets that seem to have more demand for what I produce I also retail lumber and posts, to me this means things are going to well and it is only a matter of moments until something goes wrong and put it in a tail spin. The only difference is that I think I am numb or worn down when it comes to the break downs, the mill jerking me around, the pissed off land owners, the foresters, DOT cops and the employees and I can threaten to pull the plug any time, I would never do it but it makes me feel better:msp_biggrin:


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

Northman, so that is the missus? good lookin little skidder. I know of one for sale here with 90% rubber and a cracked block ... someone took the head off and she filled up with water and froze. Its actually a pair of skidders for sale a 440 deere and a 225 jack for $12000. but the jack is rough but runs.


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## Rounder (Apr 20, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Not always. Some times they don't even make on the lowbed before they get dinged. A few years ago I bought a brand new skidder, a little Cat, and it was shiny new and didn't have a mark on it.
> 
> I was in the dealer's office signing my life away for it when I heard the crash. The lowbed driver, instead of dropping the gooseneck on the trailer, tried to hop it on over the back. I guess he didn't aim quite right 'cause it hung up, started hopping, and went over sideways.
> It didn't hurt it too bad but it sure scratched up that shiny yellow paint.
> ...



I'm impressed you didn't handle the shooting end of things yourself.....


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## bitzer (Apr 20, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Yup, give it a try. That way you'll know for sure.
> 
> On the money end of things I found out that increased production didn't always mean increased net profits. More machinery and people equal an increased cost of doing business. Always.
> 
> ...



That's pretty much been the jumble in my head this whole time. I've been tossin the idea of a crew back and forth since I started. I really wanted to get some time under my belt alone and grit it out the hard way. I started this thing out with nothing and with no experience in production logging. The first few months were tough. Not just on me, but the wife and kids too. I damn near threw in the towel, but being stubborn I pushed a little harder and started to see some light. It seems like around here I've got the opposite problem from out there. I've got more wood than I can cut and the forester is always buying. The problem is I've got really no experienced guys in the area. Logging is Wisconsin's second biggest industry, but its all up north. Training is going to be an issue. I had a kid (hes only a few months younger than me, but seemed a lot younger) meet me on the job in mid-march who might want to cut full time. He showed up with a 395 with a 28" bar and a full wrap. I thought this could be promising. I looked at his chain and it was rounded over like it had been run in the dirt for an hour. Oh Christ, I thought. This guy has some learning to do. I had him watch me fall a few and he stood way too damn close to the action. ####, this is going to be interesting. The operator I found has had some serious crane and heavy equipment op in the past so I guess I will see where that goes. Hes about 55 so I think he will take it easy on the machine. I don't know. If I don't try it I will always think about it. I just hope that damn sun will hang out soon. My lot clearin job is comin to an end and its time to get to some real loggin again!

Bob- one last footnote- theres a guy who lives about 3 hours north of me that hand cuts and cable skids all of his own wood alone. Hes 72. I haven't met the old boy personally, but I wish I would've.


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2013)

Rounder said:


> I'm impressed you didn't handle the shooting end of things yourself.....



Thought about it...but #### happens. I've put a couple on their sides too, just not a brand new one.
The guy that dumped it shut the engine down right away and took the blame for what happened. He had a busted nose and some scrapes but he didn't make a big deal out of it.
Cat ran it back into the shop and went all through it and we took it to the woods the next morning. Same low bed driver too, but this time he kept it on it's feet.


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## DavdH (Apr 20, 2013)

The bk dumped a brand new Michigan 160 on its side in front of the office. He is still the bosses kid.


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## slowp (Apr 20, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Bob- one last footnote- theres a guy who lives about 3 hours north of me that hand cuts and cable skids all of his own wood alone. Hes 72. I haven't met the old boy personally, but I wish I would've.



Way Up Nort, der was a family logging outfit. The grandson ran the forwarder, the son ran the processor, and the grandpa ran the skidder. When they came to a spot that was too steep, the grandpa was the one who cut the trees (with chainsaw) and also was the one who pulled line and skidded the trees out. He also was the one without a cab to be heated and airconditioned in.


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## 4x4American (Apr 21, 2013)

slowp said:


> I think you should paint flames on it. I've seen real flames on skidders, but never painted flames.
> 
> Sometimes equipment gets painted on the job. But it doesn't look very good and may be offensive.



good idear with the flames...maybe if he paints flames on then the real flames will be scared away, as will every tree that sees the missus


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 21, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I figure paint is like a tarp to keep the rust slowed down... not doing a full restoration here just making her a little pretty for her first day on the job after 9 years of retirement...
> 
> Its not like I'm going to bother painting the bottom or anything, besides rattle cans are cheap
> 
> These pics where take'n a week before She came home...


How long have you had that,it looks like the one my stepdad used to log with,i used to borrow it once in a while,he sold it about 10 years ago when he got his high cab john deer shovel


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## northmanlogging (Apr 21, 2013)

Picked her up in November? (I think... not sure what day it is now) got it from the grandson of the original owner, all its done since 2004 is push a little snow now and then. Gots a newer motor in 04, Drove her home since it was only 2 miles from the house.


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## jrcat (Apr 21, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> and a clean and mostly painted skidder... (it rains a lot out here...)



Its been raining a lot here now. I bet I could move that 440 easy enough with a nice 7 ton trailer and my truck


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## Oldtimer (Apr 21, 2013)

Quitting has never really crossed my mind. I can't work for another man, it's not in my DNA. I do not possess the gene that makes a man "Just happy to have a job". I'd rather live in dumpsters than punch a time clock. A 9-5 work-a-day job sucks away my will to live, even one working in the woods.
So, God willing, my business will expand a bit. Brother has a disc surgery to get done, then he can buy the machine and join me. I have way more wood than I can cut, and I'm not even searching for it. It comes to me more and more now.
The trick will be getting bigger without getting too big. I don't have a desire to be so big that I have to spend my days doing everything BUT logging.


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## jrcat (Apr 21, 2013)

I have found that working for someone else puts a severe cramp in my neck ,arse, head and style. I also tend to treat the equipment that belongs to an employer as if it were my own, which can be problematic when it comes to morons running it. I tend to not go lightly on morons and that can lead to lots of explaining to the "boss man" as to why I called aforementioned morons ....morons. I hate having to explain myself. I am a loaner and its taken me this long to learn that (34 years).


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## northmanlogging (Apr 21, 2013)

I'd rather fight mud, wasps, and back leaning snags, then go to work on monday... but it pays the bills for now, with a little luck the logging will pick up and I can quit my day job, for good this time


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## jrcat (Apr 22, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'd rather fight mud, wasps, and back leaning snags, then go to work on monday... but it pays the bills for now, with a little luck the logging will pick up and I can quit my day job, for good this time



I know what you mean. My old boss called this morning, he got his tree service back up and running. He wanted to know if I would come back and turn wrenches and drive chip truck O_O. I politely said that I am doing fine with what I have going right now and I am not interested in doing tree service work or turning wrenches or driving truck.


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## RandyMac (Apr 22, 2013)

I remember the moment I realized I had enough, it wasn't entirely my choice. I found that after a major repair, I could no longer move as fast as I needed to, so I went to part-time, flatground hazard trees.


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## jrcat (Apr 22, 2013)

No major repairs yet here "knock on wood". I hope to never have too.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 22, 2013)

Problem is the mechanics are getting really good so down time is at a minimum, but the parts cost a whole lot more, and the Mechanics are charging like 2000 an hour...

Not sure I can even afford another visit... (Hel I couldn't even begin to pay the last one)


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## bitzer (Apr 24, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Quitting has never really crossed my mind. I can't work for another man, it's not in my DNA. I do not possess the gene that makes a man "Just happy to have a job". I'd rather live in dumpsters than punch a time clock. A 9-5 work-a-day job sucks away my will to live, even one working in the woods.
> So, God willing, my business will expand a bit. Brother has a disc surgery to get done, then he can buy the machine and join me. I have way more wood than I can cut, and I'm not even searching for it. It comes to me more and more now.
> The trick will be getting bigger without getting too big. I don't have a desire to be so big that I have to spend my days doing everything BUT logging.



So are you guys getting a forwarder along with the harvester? Or are you getting a buncher to go along with the grapple skidder? I've heard that the dangle heads put out a #### ton of wood compared to a fixed head. For doing a lot of pulp and small sawtimber cut to length with a forwarder sounds about as good as it gets.


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## mitch95100 (Apr 24, 2013)

I just want an oil well...

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## Oldtimer (Apr 24, 2013)

bitzer said:


> So are you guys getting a forwarder along with the harvester? Or are you getting a buncher to go along with the grapple skidder? I've heard that the dangle heads put out a #### ton of wood compared to a fixed head. For doing a lot of pulp and small sawtimber cut to length with a forwarder sounds about as good as it gets.



Hope to see him buy a tracked feller with a 22" hotsaw. A harvester would be awesome, but they are quite expensive and require the forwarder.
We have decent sized wood as a rule, not west coast huge, not south-east poles. Pine averages 18" - 30", and hardwood sawlogs are usually 16" - 26". Pulpwood goes as small as 4", but usually we leave anything that isn't 12" or bigger. I know opinions vary, but my feeling is that even a pulpwood grade tree that is 6" has a huge head start and will gain value just like a sawlog grade tree. The way mechanized crews mow all the understory and everything but the best young sawlog grade trees doesn't seem wise to me...so I don't think I will ever go into full scale chipping. We may chip the larger tops and whatever pulp can't be sold due to quotas.


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## jrcat (Apr 24, 2013)

The company I used to work for chipped for Globe Metalurgical. It was a 3" by 3" by 1" chip ...a massive chip by most standards. We feed that chipper (morbark model 30 NCL with a 2 knife disc) with tsi wood and culls along with poplar and numerous other garbage wood we could get...even willow. At any rate that chipper could make 1000 ton a week with no sweat. We had a deere 653 tracked bucnher with an 18" hot saw and a 450c jack grapple skidder that made 50% of that wood. The remaining 50% came from various loggers as we paid by the ton and that paid more than a load of fire wood poles did. That market is now gone as globe chips in house now and brings wood in on rail car.

I was curious what market you have for pulp/chip wood where you are?


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## roberte (Apr 24, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Problem is the mechanics are getting really good so down time is at a minimum, but the parts cost a whole lot more, and the Mechanics are charging like 2000 an hour...
> 
> Not sure I can even afford another visit... (Hel I couldn't even begin to pay the last one)



My major repair in 2010, right ARM, was over $10,000.00 a screw, 10 of them


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## Oldtimer (Apr 25, 2013)

jrcat said:


> I was curious what market you have for pulp/chip wood where you are?



There's a fairly reliable market for both: 3 power plants, a few pellet plants, several chipper plants that feed several pulp mills, and firewood is always a hot seller.


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## jnl502 (May 7, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your down sizeing. Hope things are better now though and work is good. Having to throw the towel in is a very hard thing to do. After my wreck in September 19,2003 I had plans of getting back to work. It never happened. I came home 5 weeks later and still had to learn to walk again and a $1.2 million hospital bill.
Anyway hope you all do well in your endevers and be safe
jnl


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