# Empyre outdoor furnace



## kamhillbilly (Feb 20, 2007)

I am looking at an Empyre 450 out door furnace to heat my house and shop .Does any one have an empyre model it is used about 5 years old ?Any info is appreciated.Thanks


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## Bernie nw ON (Feb 20, 2007)

*Hey Neighbor!*

Hey kamhillbilly - I'm just down the road from you - I bought a Empyre 450 in November, about 10 years old, just getting around to hooking it up now. Is the one you found SS or mild steel? Mine is mild steel and needed a bit more fixing than I had originally bargained on (had a few leaks in back corners) but I think its good now. Will be heating two houses and hot water for a dairy barn. Where did you find this unit for sale? Is it local?

Bernie


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## kamhillbilly (Feb 20, 2007)

Its out of town Geraldton way ,Its stainless fire box and mild steel outer water jacket.Was yours leaking into the fire box or outer water jacket?Where is your farm?


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## Bernie nw ON (Feb 20, 2007)

*leaky empyre*

Mine had holes in the back corners of the firebox, and was rusted through on the ceiling of the firebox behind the baffle. Took a bit of welding, lots of fun crawling in and out.
My farm is on Townline between Dawson and John. Can't be too far from you. One of my employees lives up your way, on the highway just to the west of Sistonen's Corners.

Bernie


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## kamhillbilly (Feb 20, 2007)

So your close to Crompton's ? Have you herd any negitive about the stainless models?


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## hbbyloggr (Feb 21, 2007)

*Emprye 450*

We have had an Empyre 450 Stainless OWB for 4-5 years now.
The only problem we've had was with the air tubes. They were too thin and burned out each year.( They say they have a 20 yr warranty? ) The dealer finally came up with a heavy wall set of tubes with an extended end that inserts into the blower housing. The tubes tend to warp pretty bad , but at least they have lasted more than one season. We have 2 yrs on them now.

If you are going to go that way, get ready to spend all your time cutting wood and feeding it. In this cold weather we are going through 1 cord per week. We heat the house, hot water, shop ( 40x60 ) and a kiln. The only reason we bought the furnace was that we are a firewood dealer (1000 cord per year) and needed something to get rid of all the slash , odd chunks slivers and bark.

If you are around any neighbors they may not appreciate your OWB. 

Spend the best money you can on the pex lines and insulation . There are a lot of bad stories out there about the heat lost by poor installations. 

Also , invest in a generator to keep it running when the power goes out. You have to keep the circulators running or it will freeze. 

I have very mixed reviews on any of the current OWB. I think the manufacturers could have done a lot better with the efficiency ratings . I can't wait for the next generation of OWB. Sign me up.

Weigle Tree Service


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## Bernie nw ON (Feb 21, 2007)

*hey kamhillbilly*

I live just south of Crompton's over the 'big' hill. My land starts at John St and goes north 1.5 miles. Where are you?

Bernie


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## kamhillbilly (Feb 21, 2007)

hbbyloggr said:


> We have had an Empyre 450 Stainless OWB for 4-5 years now.
> The only problem we've had was with the air tubes. They were too thin and burned out each year.( They say they have a 20 yr warranty? ) The dealer finally came up with a heavy wall set of tubes with an extended end that inserts into the blower housing. The tubes tend to warp pretty bad , but at least they have lasted more than one season. We have 2 yrs on them now.
> 
> If you are going to go that way, get ready to spend all your time cutting wood and feeding it. In this cold weather we are going through 1 cord per week. We heat the house, hot water, shop ( 40x60 ) and a kiln. The only reason we bought the furnace was that we are a firewood dealer (1000 cord per year) and needed something to get rid of all the slash , odd chunks slivers and bark.
> ...



Thanks ,No nieghbors this unit is natural draft not forced ,wood not a problem 200 + acres and skidder .Insulate and keepthem dry is what I have been told on the lines .Thanks for the input


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## bassman (Feb 22, 2007)

I would rethink your boiler purchase.
I have a cozeburn 250 the little brother to the empire 450 .
it works well when it is around the minus 10c mark but you get minus 35c and you will be loading wood into it every 4 to 6 hours.
I ate up 12 cords of wood untill i turned the gas back on so the arguement of saying i didnt buy a big enough one is stupid cause how does a bigger one use less wood?
I mainly use it to heat a greenhouse but thought it would be a good idea to hook it to the house to pay for the 10 000 dollar cost of the boiler.
so we are getting into the grow season and i have no wood and have to pay top dollar for so called cords of so called seasoned wood.
I say so called cause my last cord was 4'x4'x2' and green and he said when i talked to him a cord was AND IS 4'x4'x8' and seasoned was 2 years on the ground but yet it weighs 5 times as much as a dry piece the same size.
then you have the smoke issue..... the creasote that drips down the stack and covers the inside of the waterjacket.
all that stuff is fuel and a good boiler will burn it and make heat from it and that means less wood and less trips to the boiler .
so if you have alot of free wood on hand and dont mind loading wood at all hours of the day then do it.
lets just say i am looking into a tarm unit that burns the wood and uses half the amount as what i have.
email me at bassman(at) sasktel.net and i will show you pics of the unit in action

shayne


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## kamhillbilly (Feb 23, 2007)

bassman said:


> I would rethink your boiler purchase.
> I have a cozeburn 250 the little brother to the empire 450 .
> it works well when it is around the minus 10c mark but you get minus 35c and you will be loading wood into it every 4 to 6 hours.
> I ate up 12 cords of wood untill i turned the gas back on so the arguement of saying i didnt buy a big enough one is stupid cause how does a bigger one use less wood?
> ...



If you buy a tarm unit ( a great unit $ 7-9thousand US $) be sure to have a 800-1000 gal insulated storage tank for it to work properly.If it is set up right it is a great unit my friend in Duluth has one also has cost him $13000 to get set up properly.


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## ktm rider (Feb 23, 2007)

I had an outdoor unit and I totally agree that you will be a slave to it when it gets really cold. I thankfully found someone to buy it with only 3 years of use on it. 

Bassman,
I looked into the Tarm also but there were a few things I did not like. First off they are WAY over priced.. Secondly, you have to cut the wood very small to fit in the boiler and as mentioned you need to buy the water storage tank for them to work well.
I went with an AHS Multifuel boiler inside my detached garage. It is WAY,WAY more efficient than my OWB and has an oil backup. You also don't freeze to death while tending the fire. Not to mention it was alot cheaper than an OWB. AHS also makes gasifer units.
There is also a company called New Horizon Corp in Wv. that sells gasifers. I would take a good look at the AHS even if you would have to buy a 10X12 shed from Home Depot to to put it in, you would still save money over an OWB or even the Tarm AND have a unit that is quite efficient. 

www.newhorizoncorp.com


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## kamhillbilly (Feb 25, 2007)

Bernie nw ON said:


> I live just south of Crompton's over the 'big' hill. My land starts at John St and goes north 1.5 miles. Where are you?
> 
> Bernie



I'm on 4th con off Auto rd .Bernie what size of circulating pump(s) are you going to use or do you know yet?


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## Bernie nw ON (Feb 25, 2007)

Hey Kam, I've got 2 lines running from the stove - one is 130' to my barn, I'm using a Grundfos 15-58 3 speed. The other run is 110' to the first house, then another 120' to the second house. I hope to get away with one pump, I am installing a Grundfos 26-99 on that loop. My math tells me it should work ok, the first house is only 900 sq ft, I plan to run the water to the 2nd house first (1600 sq ft, forced air furnace and hotwater sidearm) then run that return through the 1st house furnace and sidearm, then back to the boiler. I just finished soldering up the valve manifold for the houses, I made it so I can run one or the other house or both either in series or parallel. Its a little complicated, to say the least. I should be able to get it fired early this week, then I guess I'll know how good I am at engineering  . I also plan to run the stove as hot as possible, like 190 - 195, otherwise running the water in series from house to house likely will not work. 
I enjoy messing around with this stuff, this is branching out from my usual projects involving barns, cows and farm equipment.
Any other questions, just ask.
Bernie


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## windthrown (Feb 25, 2007)

*OWB efficiency*



hbbyloggr said:


> I have very mixed reviews on any of the current OWB. I think the manufacturers could have done a lot better with the efficiency ratings . I can't wait for the next generation of OWB. Sign me up.
> 
> Weigle Tree Service



Well, I am working on it! OWBs are inefficient becasue they let the wood gasses escape when the blower/dampers are closed. Basically they become charcoal makers in the off mode. To make use of the wood gas, you need to step up the burn temperature and have a secondary burning chamber. But to do that you need to burn less wood at any given time, and thus load more wood in there more often, and perhaps have to start the fire more often. I am looking to marry the gassifier type boilers with the OWB type boilers, and keep it an OWB unit. Also get EPA approval, burn clean and burn efficient. A tall order, and it may take some time. Patents are an issue, as is competition, and the anti-OWB and oil lobby. Once they ban an OWB in an area, it is impossible to sell one there regardless of how clean it burns. New England and New York are rediculous in that regard.


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## bassman (Feb 25, 2007)

yes the tarm units are pricey from what read and the tank would be a problem as i dont have the room anywhere in the house.
I bought the owb in rush in order to heat a greenhouse and given the situation again i dont know what i would do .
after standing in the cold and watching a temp gauge slowly climb day after day i think there are alot of better ways to do this.
I would build a nice insulated 12x16 building in a heartbeat to house a better boiler .
lay down a cement pad and make one wall with a couple of removeable doors so you could fill the building with 6 cords of wood and maybe a beer fridge and tv???
I used to love my boiler now i am starting to rethink my love for the woodpig.
sure you have to cut your wood smaller and only use real dry stuff but the wyth you can burn greenwood in an outdoor boiler with a blower fan is stupid!!
as a result of not buying enough wood i am burning green right now and what I would burn for 24 hours is now burning in 6.


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## hbbyloggr (Feb 26, 2007)

*Effeciency*



windthrown said:


> Well, I am working on it! OWBs are inefficient becasue they let the wood gasses escape when the blower/dampers are closed. Basically they become charcoal makers in the off mode. To make use of the wood gas, you need to step up the burn temperature and have a secondary burning chamber. But to do that you need to burn less wood at any given time, and thus load more wood in there more often, and perhaps have to start the fire more often. I am looking to marry the gassifier type boilers with the OWB type boilers, and keep it an OWB unit. Also get EPA approval, burn clean and burn efficient. A tall order, and it may take some time. Patents are an issue, as is competition, and the anti-OWB and oil lobby. Once they ban an OWB in an area, it is impossible to sell one there regardless of how clean it burns. New England and New York are rediculous in that regard.



Windthrown,
Here is a small tid-bit for you. I placed a 8 to 6 inch reducer on the top of the 8" metalbestos pipe to restrict the free escape of gasses.
Also I started burning 2 yr old full round logs from 6" to 10" diameter, 3 feet long. There is quite a difference in the burn time. Today it was 24 hrs since the last fill.... and I only filled the stove 3/4 full. Might be worth a try for you.
Looking forward to your improvements.

Hbbyloggr


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## kamhillbilly (Mar 19, 2007)

Bernie nw ON said:


> Hey Kam, I've got 2 lines running from the stove - one is 130' to my barn, I'm using a Grundfos 15-58 3 speed. The other run is 110' to the first house, then another 120' to the second house. I hope to get away with one pump, I am installing a Grundfos 26-99 on that loop. My math tells me it should work ok, the first house is only 900 sq ft, I plan to run the water to the 2nd house first (1600 sq ft, forced air furnace and hotwater sidearm) then run that return through the 1st house furnace and sidearm, then back to the boiler. I just finished soldering up the valve manifold for the houses, I made it so I can run one or the other house or both either in series or parallel. Its a little complicated, to say the least. I should be able to get it fired early this week, then I guess I'll know how good I am at engineering  . I also plan to run the stove as hot as possible, like 190 - 195, otherwise running the water in series from house to house likely will not work.
> I enjoy messing around with this stuff, this is branching out from my usual projects involving barns, cows and farm equipment.
> Any other questions, just ask.
> Bernie


Hi Bernie ,just got back from vacation and ready to start aquiring supplies for summer install hows your working ? I'm going to have two runs one of 150' the other 130' ,just wondering how that 15-58 pump is handling your 130' run. SinceI have to start looking around for prices etc .


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## Bernie nw ON (Mar 20, 2007)

*Hey Kam*

The 15-58 is working fine, it runs a loop with an rad to heat my barn equipment room and a plate exchanger for barn hot water, I can get the 60 gal water tank from 100 to 170 in less than an hour and a half. I have been running the pump on its slowest speed.

Bernie


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## kamhillbilly (Mar 20, 2007)

Are your pumps cast or bronze everything I read says bronze for open ststems cast for closed but bronze pumps are pricey$$$$


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## Bernie nw ON (Mar 20, 2007)

*hey kam*

One of my pumps is bronze - the 26-99, the price difference on it was only 20 bucks or so - but I bought it at contractor's prices at Emco/Western Supplies - I think it was about $280, I have 2 15-58s, one for the boiler loop and one for the domestic hw loop in my barn, both are cast, they were only $78 or something close to that, bronze were WAY more, I have a cast March circ pump on my milk cooling system, it runs domestic water (not a closed system), it has run for 12+ years every day no problems. I think the worst thing for the cast pumps is to sit all summer, they usually seize and are toast when you try to start them in the fall.


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## kamhillbilly (Apr 13, 2007)

*Line Insulation*

What are you using for line insulation ,tis is my plan.View attachment 49024


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 14, 2007)

hbbyloggr said:


> Spend the best money you can on the pex lines and insulation . There are a lot of bad stories out there about the heat lost by poor installations.



Yep. Saving money on insulation is penny wise and pound foolish.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=646044&postcount=6


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## ktm250rider (Apr 14, 2007)

Ive been on the fence with burning wood for some time now. Ive got plenty of wood I believe. Mostly pine but there are some hardwoods out there on my land. My biggest concern with the OWB would be the crazy amount of wood Ive read about some people going through. 
I've been thinking of the gasification units but didnt want to add a chimeny to my house.
I really like the idea of putting one of these gasification units in a small building incorporated with wood storage. My only issue is all the wood ive cut so far will have to be cut in half. Ive been making 30" pieces.


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## grandpatractor (Apr 14, 2007)

ktm250rider said:


> Ive been on the fence with burning wood for some time now. Ive got plenty of wood I believe. Mostly pine but there are some hardwoods out there on my land. My biggest concern with the OWB would be the crazy amount of wood Ive read about some people going through.
> I've been thinking of the gasification units but didnt want to add a chimeny to my house.
> I really like the idea of putting one of these gasification units in a small building incorporated with wood storage. My only issue is all the wood ive cut so far will have to be cut in half. Ive been making 30" pieces.



The thing with owb's is that once installed the only cost of running one is gas for the saws and the truck. The trick is to make sure you use some kind if well insulated pipe system running underground. I know i keep my house and shed alot warmer than I would if I was buying propane. I would have spent a small fortune if I was buying propane. Everyone has a different opinion as to what a crazy amount of wood is too. I burn about 15 cord a year I think. Is that a crazy amount to heat a 5000 sqft house to 80° and a shop to 65°(it's 2340 sqft with 14 ft ceiling) and supplement my hot water for the house. I don't think so. It just depends on what you want to heat as to how much wood you burn. You just have to be realistic with all the variables like the age of the house, R-value in the ceiling and the walls and windows and how warm you want it. Sorry this isn't organized very well but hopefully you get my point.


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## kamhillbilly (Apr 14, 2007)

grandpatractor said:


> The thing with owb's is that once installed the only cost of running one is gas for the saws and the truck. The trick is to make sure you use some kind if well insulated pipe system running underground. I know i keep my house and shed alot warmer than I would if I was buying propane. I would have spent a small fortune if I was buying propane. Everyone has a different opinion as to what a crazy amount of wood is too. I burn about 15 cord a year I think. Is that a crazy amount to heat a 5000 sqft house to 80° and a shop to 65°(it's 2340 sqft with 14 ft ceiling) and supplement my hot water for the house. I don't think so. It just depends on what you want to heat as to how much wood you burn. You just have to be realistic with all the variables like the age of the house, R-value in the ceiling and the walls and windows and how warm you want it. Sorry this isn't organized very well but hopefully you get my point.



I am in the same boat 3600 sqft house 1600sqft shop 12' ceilings radiant floor in both with oil boilers now .Heating fuel has gone crazy in price 37cents a litre when I built in 1997 last fill was 93 cents getting out of control .I also have 120 acres to acces wood.Put some money in pocket in exchange for some time...


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