# Whats this Knot



## derwoodii (Oct 3, 2009)

For 25 years I have used this. Unsure rope terms, call it a running hitch and non locking so good to secure limbs for lowering or say pulling over trunks. I hope to share and have peer reviewed as a simple quick easy knot for tree timber handling. I could whip the rope around a limb and tie the knot with one hand so it was high use when I was climbing for a living. Its never failed me and always easy to unlock even after heavy tension. I'll try to explain how its tied but pictures are always better. The only trick hard to show or explain is the turn/twist a loop that the line end passed though. 
Why I ask? it was never shown to me, I just muffed it one day and it worked but not seen it else where.


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## blewgrass (Oct 3, 2009)

I'd call it a figure eight slip knot.


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## derwoodii (Oct 3, 2009)

Thanks cool your right its is just a figure 8 but I have tied it around the rope to make the running loop/hitch.
I must say it thinking now it worries me that for 30 years I been climbing dismantling trees with very few knots in the kit. 
I was shown the usual clove, bow line, prussic & timber hitch (which I think was how I goofed this one) Even handy with the trucker trap and can splice a eye. But I have kept my knots knowledge at the sallow end of skill pool. 
Next life I should try harder.
Give this one a go it is quick and simple has worked for me. The look you'll get when you send it down to your groundies is worth it... Huh LOL what???


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## lego1970 (Oct 3, 2009)

That's simple. It's a Derwoodii knot.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 3, 2009)

what happens if it tightens up and you can't untied it? I will always use the bowline, been using it for 21 years and put some heavy loads on it and never had it once get to tight to untie.


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## pdqdl (Oct 3, 2009)

I'd call it a slipped figure eight knot, but... "slipping a knot" is generally done to facilitate untying it quickly, the slipping portion is invariably a tuck of the final tail through a loop of the knot. In this particular case, your knot should never slip out, as the loaded end of the rope can only slip out when the log is removed.

I don't think that I would use this knot . The figure 8 is a very reliable knot, but it is not designed to hold itself together surrounding some other structure. In this case, it would be possible for the load to put a pulling-separating force into the middle of the figure 8, and it might just pull the tail out.

If you do a little research, you will discover a way for tying the bowline one handed as well. Then you will be doing an industry-standard knot, rather than making one up that might prove unreliable.

It's probably great for light limbs, though.


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## Wishie22 (Oct 3, 2009)

How about a clove hitch with a bowline (with a yosemite tie off on large pieces)?
Secure and easy to untie.


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## outofmytree (Oct 4, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I'd call it a slipped figure eight knot, but... "slipping a knot" is generally done to facilitate untying it quickly, the slipping portion is invariably a tuck of the final tail through a loop of the knot. In this particular case, you're knot should never slip out, as the loaded end of the rope can only slip out when the log is removed.
> 
> I don't think that I would use this knot . The figure 8 is a very reliable knot, but it is not designed to hold itself together surrounding some other structure. In this case, it would be possible for the load to put a pulling-separating force into the middle of the figure 8, and it might just pull the tail out.
> 
> ...



I read and reread this mate and I just can't see how this knot would be less reliable than a bowline for example. The force on the leg from loop to knot would be drawing the knot tighter rather than spreading it apart as far as I can see. Do you mean constant force over a period of time or shockload? You could probably test this quite easily with a truck and a decent anchor.....


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## derwoodii (Oct 5, 2009)

Ok thanks all, I put it out and got excellent feed back. 
At this stage its goofy invention only tested by myself.
As there are many proven industry adopted knots lets not give it a name or use it over any-ones heads.

My 25 years experience, its hard to lock up and I have not seen it drop apart but...insert caveat here.

When I get the time I might try a bit of destructive testing and shock and loading see how it performs vs. my diesel 4x4 & send in the pictures.


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## pdqdl (Oct 5, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> I read and reread this mate and I just can't see how this knot would be less reliable than a bowline for example. The force on the leg from loop to knot would be drawing the knot tighter rather than spreading it apart as far as I can see. Do you mean constant force over a period of time or shockload? You could probably test this quite easily with a truck and a decent anchor.....



Ok...look at this situation in another way.

Tie a simple figure-8 on the end of a line. No bight, no follow through, just a simple figure 8. Attach a carabiner to one of the loops of the knot, then throw the near end of the rope over a branch, and call that your termination knot for your lifeline. 

Good idea? I don't think so. 

The forces on the knot while snugged down to a large diameter log will be similar to hanging a carabiner on one end, and pulling on the tail from the near side of the loop to the carabiner. It will tend to spread the knot apart, then subsequent failure. Why bother with the risk? Other knots are better, and just as easy to tie.

Engage brain, avoid risk.


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## davej (Oct 8, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> For 25 years I have used this. Unsure rope terms, call it a running hitch and non locking so good to secure limbs for lowering or say pulling over trunks....



Oops... I occasionally use that knot when tying a trucker's hitch but I wouldn't consider it too safe. It can capsize into a form that will loosen. In a trucker's hitch that doesn't matter.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 9, 2009)

This fig.8 noose would deform the Standing (Tension) Part like a Running Bowline. Both, should also pull perpendicular to the limb; if inline pull (angle from rope to limb), should be preceded by Marl / Half Hitch.

But i'm personally more with DBY as tried in true, seating nicely in all but the stiffest of our lines.


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## outofmytree (Oct 10, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Ok...look at this situation in another way.
> 
> Tie a simple figure-8 on the end of a line. No bight, no follow through, just a simple figure 8. Attach a carabiner to one of the loops of the knot, then throw the near end of the rope over a branch, and call that your termination knot for your lifeline.
> 
> ...



I still dont agree with your synopsis pdqdl but I need to draw this out to explain what I am thinking. Gimme a day or so and then we can follow up on this.


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## pdqdl (Oct 10, 2009)

Whether or not I am right is somewhat irrelevant.

Why bother with the risk? Other knots are better, and just as easy to tie.


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## derwoodii (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok I grabbed some tag line 10mm poly double braid and hooked one end using the goofy figure 8 to a stump the other with a bow line to hitch of a 4x4. 
Snap broke at the bow line ??
Same again & again snapped the bowline. The goofy was tightened up but was I able to unlock with a tool.

So reversed it to the tow hitch put a bow line on the stump. Snap bow line again.
The goofy surviving 4 shocks was cooked but intact some quite cursing and a good screw driver I was still able to unlock it.

All, this was a very quick test and without good control.
I'll go see a local rope maker and ask them to conduct a few fair dinks bench tests take out my subject bias.
I will advise and report results.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 11, 2009)

i'd think it'd break at Bowline; but be more an even battle if it was a Running Bowline? The fig.8 being a shrinking eye (rather than a fixed eye like Bowline); might impart some re-stabilazation of the Bent Standing Part, but we usually don't see that so much until a round Turn around Standing (without Round Turn around host/mount).

These are running knots/nooses. Just as a simple Noose is Overhand around self to form eye, and a Dbl.Noose/ Scaffold / 'Dbl.Fisherman's is an Anchor around self to form eye; this Fig.8 Noose is just Fig.8 around self to form eye (and Bowline is just SheetBend to self to form Fixed/ non shrinking eye, but Hitch of Sheet is turned into more properly a Half Hitch).

But, the strength reduction (as a percentage of tensile strength of the line) is generally from the destabilizing deformity/bend in the fully tensioned Standing Part. On a Bowline, this would be the bend to form the Half Hitch, but on Running Bowline, would be where the eye deforms the Standing like the other running knots mentioned.


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## outofmytree (Oct 11, 2009)

Nice one derwoodii.

Some people prefer to stick with what they are told, some like to experiment to see if there is a better way. I am the latter.







Not the best drawing but if you follow the lines of force you see pull and resistance. The knot is a sliding knot so the forces are linear rather than lateral. Rather than pull the knot apart the force is going to set it resulting in a stronger rather than weaker bond when used in this fashion.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 11, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Nice one derwoodii.
> 
> Some people prefer to stick with what they are told, some like to experiment to see if there is a better way. I am the latter.


experiments can get people killed.




outofmytree said:


> Not the best drawing but if you follow the lines of force you see pull and resistance. The knot is a sliding knot so the forces are linear rather than lateral. Rather than pull the knot apart the force is going to set it resulting in a stronger rather than weaker bond when used in this fashion.


the running bowline is a sliding knot so wouldn't it have the same effect that you're trying to explain?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 11, 2009)

i think he is speaking to the lock of the fig.8 being pulled open or closed. 

Usually we see a fig.8 as a superior form than an Overhand, by virtue of the simple extra twist of the 8! One place this can backfire i think is as a stopper, for a stopper is best jammed up against the knot to insure proper seating, this is harder with 8 than Overhand IMLHO. Also, the profile that stops/ jams is the same at that seating. Once again the old ways can be the best, 2 Half Hitches seated tight as per custom..

The strength of these Running Knots is of 1 leg of support; less it's destabilizing deformation (by the eye of either). Now if the deformation is less, that is better. If the same deformation is over a longer distance ; the deformation seems to happen with less impact against the strength (like a Double Bowline is stronger than a Bowline). This and several other factors cause a 'destabilizing' effect; that drops the tensile strength to below 1xTensile Strength (always calculating a percentage (really just the infinity between 0 - 1) X a potential. 

Now, if we go from a Single Noose (Overhand around self to form shrinking eye) to a Double Noose(Anchor Hitch / Double Overhand around self to form shrinking eye) we get a stronger knot. But; if the we come around the host/spar/mount with a Round Turn (before making Anchor to self); the effect (of the knot being stronger/ 're-stabilized'(?)) seems all but lost. So, i think a Single Noose, or this Fig.8 Noose could give stronger results on some pulls that Running Bowline, because the cinching up effect (to help restabilize/ fortify like rubber boot on electrical cord at base of a unit?) around Standing could give extra edge here.

But, the strength of these Running Knots/ eyes can also be characterized by how 'flat the tepee' is. For, a taller point / tepee is more relaxed/ leveraging the Standing Parts force less vs. when same is flattened against the load/mount/spar. This is witnessed by the subsequent tighter grip on said load from same pull etc. An eye that shrinks close can cinch up and stay tighter, than an open eye that can loosen later after tightening up etc. But, then the increased frictions from a sudden loading can pull the line thru the shrinking noose with more frictions, giving more dampening of force there... So, many ways to go; people can witness different things by using different lines, dressing and loading strategies!!


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## moray (Oct 11, 2009)

Yesterday I pulled over 3 trees and found myself trying to come up with a good mid-line loop knot to attach to the tow hook. There are plenty of secure knots, but I also wanted it to be easy to untie after a big load. When I saw this thread, I thought this running figure 8 might be worth checking.

I have now tied this knot 20 or 30 times and can certify it is extremely easy to tie. It is easiest to tie it as a mid-line knot even if it is at the end of the rope.

Today I subjected it to a break test. In derwoodii's picture below, I have added a green arrow to show the sharpest bight in the knot. This sharp bend around the knot's tail also experiences more tension than any other nip in the knot.









I made up one short rope in Yale Blaze with a running 8 at each end; each knot was held by a 3/4-inch steel shackle pin. For comparison, I made up another rope with a running overhand at each end. All 4 knots had tails of 4 inches or more.

The next pic shows one of the running overhands at about 200 lbs. tension.










The next pic shows one of the running 8's at about 200 lbs. tension. Even under such a low load the knot is hard to recognize as the same one in derwoodii's picture.


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## moray (Oct 11, 2009)

*Results*

The tails of the overhand knots never stopped crawling into the knots, but one of the knots won the race and came apart at 3934 lbs (The nominal strength of Blaze is 5600 lbs). The survivor was so tight I had to cut it off the shackle.

The tails of the running 8's did some crawling initially but then settled down. Finally one of the knots broke at 4592 lbs. The survivor, contrary to derwoodii's experience, was quite easy to take apart. Inspection of the survivor showed the sharp nip had produced a striking dent in the tail, reducing its diameter by almost half. There were broken surface fibers on the inner surface of the nip predicting where the failure would occur.

When a standard bowline was tested in this same fashion, it broke at 4406 lbs. A figure 8 on a bight, an overhand on a bight, and an alpine butterfly all peformed about like the bowline. Only the double fisherman's loop stood out from the others, breaking at 5144 lbs. 

For a midline loop this knot seems like a good one: it is strong, it is extremely easy to tie, and it is easy to untie after being loaded to near its breaking point (in Blaze, at least).


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 11, 2009)

Wow, thanx for the numbers; i was thinking of you when reading all this...

On the subject of truck pull hitches; might i be so bold as to suggest not deforming the Standing Part (any more than the usually small mounts do)with a bend from the eyes and just taking a Turn or 2(Round Turn ) on the primary contact/mount, then leading to a 'secondary', that is the actual hitch point. The 'primary' should be the larger, smoother diameter of the 2, that takes most of the force, and should thereby be most inline and/or structured to frame. The path to the secondary would be along tube/bumper inline, so less important if that point is inline with frame.

Ball Hitches are common, but have a few quirks. They usually are not inline with frame beam, but; are larger for a primary than a common tow hook. Also, the ball's tapering (from the orb of the ball on top, and from bottom on reinforced tapering mount models), can take a 'friendly hitch' and make it more deformed and also make it lock on by the taper allowing the forces to compress the knot 'mass' making release very difficult. A lot of times; i'd prefer a simple Slipped Half Hitch to get the line off easier from this small, tapered mount. Pulling the end of the slip can give a 2x potential at the right time to release; and a length of run to that point...


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## blewgrass (Oct 11, 2009)

> For a midline loop this knot seems like a good one: it is strong, it is extremely easy to tie, and it is easy to untie after being loaded to near its breaking point



This is the only time that I've used this knot, as a midline tie-in for a trucker's hitch. The forces on the knot are different when it is used this way though because rather than the tails hanging idly they become the rest of the rig and end up putting more stress on the knot.

I was hoping Moray would jump into this thread!


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## outofmytree (Oct 12, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> experiments can get people killed.



Yes that is always a possibility hence the need to test any new rig as exhaustively as possible prior to use. On that note thanks Moray. I love your work. Ditto for Treespyder.

I am always "tinkering" with my climbing and hauling gear looking for extra efficiency or safety or strength. At the same time, I am happy to steal anybody elses good ideas and use them too. Thats what this forum is all about IMO. Sharing what we know.


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## pdqdl (Oct 12, 2009)

I seem to have missed something here. 

Moray: When you tell us that you tied this as a mid-line knot, does that mean that you were loading BOTH legs that exit the knot, as well as the loop? If so, of course that will be a stable knot.

Unless I am mistaken, the original post was for use as an anchor hitch to a tree or falling log.

You might consider looking up my threads on the manharness knot. It is my favorite, having learned it in Boy Scouts almost 40 years ago. For use as a mid-line knot, it is vastly superior to this sliding figure 8. It unties easily, it ties very fast (once you learn it), and it does not choke down onto whatever is tied onto it. Strength...I have no idea. Probably just average.


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## moray (Oct 12, 2009)

No, I was only loading one leg. 

I did not know your pioneer knot--looks a lot like the butterfly, but simpler. Very easy to tie.

Spydie alluded to a very good point about these loop knots: the forces on the knot will tend to be greater for a fixed loop than a slip knot. In the latter case the first serious nip in the knot comes after the rope has passed around the anchor. Friction against the anchor eats up a lot of the rope's tension as load increases and reduces the load on the first nip of the knot. Adding another wrap around the anchor, if you can, is still better.

On the rare occasions when I need a knotted loop to hold a significant load I unfortunately have very few arrows in my quiver. Since I am not on the clock, my first aim is to be nice to my rope. This sliding 8 or running 8 seems like a pretty good choice for many situations.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 12, 2009)

people keep trying to fix what ain't broke and someone's going to end up broke and I don't mean the money broke......

just my opinion...


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## pdqdl (Oct 12, 2009)

For what it is worth, here is my final thoughts on this knot:

A figure-8 is a reliable and strong knot, but this application is a clear departure from previously reliable uses. It looks very reliable once set and loaded (as in Moray's wonderful closeup pics) but it also will be prone to falling apart when quite loose and tied with a short tail (as in sliding up a tree to secure a remote branch). 

It is also completely untested while holding a large diameter log that may be falling or tumbling before it is loaded, so I decline to think that it may be a good knot for that application. Since there are other rigging knots/hitches that will serve this purpose very reliably, and just as easily, I cannot think of any good reason to use this knot, except familiarity and lack of knowledge for a better knot.

As always, great report & analysis Moray! I am pleased to see you take up the gauntlet for this new knot, even if I don't plan on using it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 12, 2009)

Once again, this is just a simple Noose, with an extra twist in the Overhand Knot. Thus, instead of an Overhand to self to form shrinking eye/ noose; it presents and advancemeant of a fig.8 to self to form eye.

Now, i think in theory, it could be better for especially narrow stuff if the fig.8 came around the Standing with both parts/ loops of the fig8 (or even better as a Stevedore at this point) like for hunting snares for small game. 




Now, a perhaps interesting experimeant (slightly off topic) would be for a Running Bowline, that gave a Round Turn with it's eye around the Standing (to fortify this destabilized region more like a dbl. Noose/ Scaffold / Dbl.Fisherman's). Also, if that eye was longer even, to place the SheetBend of the Bowline around the log, and only the 2 legs of the eye taking brunt of impacts etc. on that side. Furthermore the trapping of the Bowline against the log, would keep it fairer; like a Square Knot is kept more surely by trapping against a parcel etc. that it wraps around (Square to be used as knot, not Hitch).


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## Plasmech (Oct 13, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> For 25 years I have used this. Unsure rope terms, call it a running hitch and non locking so good to secure limbs for lowering or say pulling over trunks. I hope to share and have peer reviewed as a simple quick easy knot for tree timber handling. I could whip the rope around a limb and tie the knot with one hand so it was high use when I was climbing for a living. Its never failed me and always easy to unlock even after heavy tension. I'll try to explain how its tied but pictures are always better. The only trick hard to show or explain is the turn/twist a loop that the line end passed though.
> Why I ask? it was never shown to me, I just muffed it one day and it worked but not seen it else where.



Knot sure, but I know it's knot one I'll ever use


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## davej (Oct 14, 2009)

moray said:


> The tails of the running 8's did some crawling initially but then settled down. Finally one of the knots broke at 4592 lbs. The survivor, contrary to derwoodii's experience, was quite easy to take apart.



Compared to running bowline, buntline, taut-line, scaffold?

There are many lesser known knots that could be considered if you want to wander off the known path. Consider the "sash weight" knot ABOK 199.

http://www.amazon.com/reader/038504...LQpbW7ccwZZQ==&query=buntline&page=315#reader


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 14, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> what happens if it tightens up and you can't untied it? I will always use the bowline, been using it for 21 years and put some heavy loads on it and never had it once get to tight to untie.



The best all around knot there is ..


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## derwoodii (Oct 16, 2009)

All-right what interesting day. I went to a rope manufacturer and they let me test the knot on a $70K machine. 
Results again finds the "running 8" beat a bowline.
The testing was not strong on the science side, no lab coats or many multiple repeats of task. However the knot held up well and after all rope failures still unlocked easy. 
10 mm 12 mm and 22mm poly double used and with one test put the running 8 up against its self till one end failed.

I am very please to see much debate about this. I was anxious my goofy knot could be an embarrassment. Now I am anxious about any harm it could bring.
Its new and needs more evaluation. I hope to return to test machine with more time & get graphical data
Those who want to trial. 1st do no harm. 2nd if you want to test let AS know results & any hint of structure failure.
Thanks Moray your work & running 8 seems an apt name and Treespyder your clearly wise in ropes.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 16, 2009)

I'd like to see a test on a large diameter log and shock load it.

When you say "bowline" are you referring o the running bowline or stationary.


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## blewgrass (Oct 16, 2009)

> running 8 seems an apt name



except that it's already called a figure eight slip knot. see section 4-25 here for a precedent.

edit: pdqdl- at the above link there is also a knot that looks alot like the manharness or pioneer knot that you have described in the past. They call it a wireman's knot and it's at section 4-16.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 16, 2009)

blewgrass said:


> except that it's already called a figure eight slip knot. see section 4-25 here for a precedent.
> 
> edit: pdqdl- at the above link there is also a knot that looks alot like the manharness or pioneer knot that you have described in the past. They call it a wireman's knot and it's at section 4-16.


opcorn:


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## pdqdl (Oct 17, 2009)

blewgrass said:


> ....
> edit: pdqdl- at the above link there is also a knot that looks alot like the manharness or pioneer knot that you have described in the past. They call it a wireman's knot and it's at section 4-16.



Nope. Not my knot! That looks like an apline butterfly, although they don't show a final picture, and the description is a bit difficult to follow.


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## derwoodii (Oct 17, 2009)

Great work Bluey g you've solved my mystery knot.
For years I searched to find any look alike in knot books, no luck. 
Unconvinced it was a goofy creation I put it out to AS which predictably gave it great feed back + & - and now a name, 
knot quest over I can rest easy.
All who want to test or use (Primum non nocere) care please. Yes its simple, quick and easy to un-load but that could be a trap, one miss turn and you loose the lot. I think proven trade knots have built redundancy in design, a dropped turn can be survived. 
My 25 years experience it never failed, but I truly never fully trusted it, found myself flipping that extra hitch in the tail when a load was live or die.

RFtree it was just the a bow line not a running one.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 17, 2009)

Bravo! and Thanks for a great link!

i've been thinking it would make an interesting slip; especially midline. Not like a slip knot as outlined (which i more call a noose) but rather in the 'slip'/ quick release sense.

Great info on testing to confirm Moray etc. i expect a Double Noose /Scaffold to do better; if just simple Turn around load, but not if a Round Turn around load. i think Running Bowline with a Round Turn around Standing would be similar (if no Round Turn around load preceding the more 'firming' greater line tension in eye constricting around Standing).

But, i also think have to be very careful in exact setups (which the testers probably due, but thinking about those in field). This could especially be true (for all the shrinking eye / nooses and Running Bowline, not the fixed eye Bowline that deforms standing by Half Hitch formed in Standing, not by eye bending Standing) for how intensely the eye leverages the single support of the Standing. If setup starts with eye cocked to the side and on loading is allowed to cinch up tighter; it is deforming the Standing more (to give higher leveraged multiplier x the tension needed to 'support' the load) etc.


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## moray (Oct 18, 2009)

davej said:


> Compared to running bowline, buntline, taut-line, scaffold?



None of these, except scaffold (dbl fisherman's loop), can be tied in the bight. I wanted an easy-to-tie loop I could tie midline that would be easy to untie after a significant load. The scaffold is easy to tie midline, but it isn't so easy to untie.



> There are many lesser known knots that could be considered if you want to wander off the known path. Consider the "sash weight" knot ABOK 199.



I looked this up and played with it for awhile. A nice knot. Even when looped over a carabiner it is easy to flip one of the wrapping coils over the other to get the dbl fisherman's loop. I think this one would be hard to untie after a big load.

While playing with derwoodii's knot, I created 3 more variations. In the original version (A, below), the tail emerges from one eye of the fig. 8 and both legs of the loop emerge from the other. The arrow in all the photos indicates the most heavily loaded nip in the knot.







In the first variation of the knot, B, things look very different. The tail and standing part emerge together from one of the eyes, and the other eye contains the other leg of the loop. I like the looks of this better than the original, A, but it is harder to tie. Because the tail and standing part emerge on the same side of the eye, it should be easy to loosen the knot after a load. And it can be tied in the bight like A. Interestingly, you can put a carabiner in the loop and freely convert A into B and vice versa without any access to the rope end!


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## moray (Oct 18, 2009)

C and D look like very secure knots, but neither can be tied in the bight and both look like they would be very hard to untie after load. 

When the weather improves in a couple of days I intend to do a break test on B. It will probably be similar in strength to A, but I hope it crawls a lot less under load. Crawling, per se, doesn't indicate a knot is weak--the strongest loop I have tested to date is the dbl fisherman's, and it crawled far more than weaker knots like the bowline or alpine butterfly. (The crawling came from the coils tightening up, not the tail creeping in). My problem with crawling is my uninformed guess that crawling in a tight knot damages the rope. Whether or not there is anything to this, it will be interesting to see if B performs differently from A.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 18, 2009)

i think C with the more Round turn around the Standing could give better strength, and easier untie (stabler drawing up too?). Probably better if not tucked quite so soon, and completed that last Turn to exit next to Standing like a proper Square finish?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 18, 2009)

*ABOK 1116, THE FIGURE-EIGHT NOOSE*


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## davej (Oct 18, 2009)

moray said:


> None of these, except scaffold (dbl fisherman's loop), can be tied in the bight. I wanted an easy-to-tie loop I could tie midline that would be easy to untie after a significant load. The scaffold is easy to tie midline, but it isn't so easy to untie.



Oh well, for a midline slip knot I think this one is just fine and is very quick to tie. The butterfly would be slower to tie. Another option might be the "single bowline on the bight" ABOK 1058.


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## derwoodii (Oct 19, 2009)

This is a scan of a test report running 8 vs. running 8. 
The rope was double braid 12mm poly rated to 3400kgf. 
One knot popped at 28 Kn. I hope the numbers are a help my testing was not good on control and technique. Wish to do more. 

Watching the ropes & knots tension up in slow mo though the plexiglass was fun n scary with sounds smells and forces building up just under your nose till,,,,,, Bang!

A couple of times you got a double pop when the rope heart or core let go 1st add bit more then pop the knot.


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## moray (Oct 20, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> This is a scan of a test report running 8 vs. running 8.
> The rope was double braid 12mm poly rated to 3400kgf.
> One knot popped at 28 Kn. I hope the numbers are a help my testing was not good on control and technique. Wish to do more.
> 
> Watching the ropes & knots tension up in slow mo though the plexiglass was fun n scary with sounds smells and forces building up just under your nose till,,,,,, Bang



Nice chart, derwoodii. Your knot broke at about 84% of nominal rope strength, very close to my result of about 82%.

It is a treat to watch a knot tested to failure. It is a whole realm most of us never get to see, and it leaves me appreciating knots and ropes more than before. It is also a vivid warning to keep the stress on your ropes and knots far below the breaking point.


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## moray (Oct 20, 2009)

The weather improved and I had a chance to test version B of the figure 8 noose. I tied identical knots at each end of a short length of Yale Blaze. After hand tightening each knot to remove the slop in the figure 8, I tensioned the rig. The knots writhed and crawled as slack was removed everywhere, but the tail stayed put and did not appear to crawl into the knot. This was very different from derwoodii's version A of the knot, which ate a lot of the tail.

But B was a disappointment. It broke at only 4036 lbs. (compared to 4592), and it was completely impossible to untie the surviving knot. Since it is also significantly harder to tie, and harder to verify for correctness, I would have to say version A wins hands down.

While I had my rig set up I finished testing the last pair of aluminum rings I had on hand. I had 10 or 12 altogether, and each ring was individually subjected to 1200 lbs. tension in one direction only. None showed any sign of distress. This doesn't prove they are good, but it is a confidence booster.

When I first started testing the rings, it seemed like a good idea to test the whole false crotch thereby verifying two rings and the connecting rope all at one go. Most of mine were made with Samson Treemaster 3-strand rope. As soon as tension was applied, the rope started to unwind. Since the piston in my testing rig is free to rotate in the cylinder, the rope was free to unwind as much as it wanted. A 3-foot piece of rope made 2 or 3 full revolutions by the time I reached 500 lbs., so I stopped the test and resorted to testing the rings individually (I also cut the rings out of that particular FC). I think I will stop using 3-strand for this application.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 20, 2009)

"Now, i think in theory, it could be better for especially narrow stuff if the fig.8 came around the Standing with both parts/ loops of the fig8 (or even better as a Stevedore at this point) like for hunting snares for small game."

i think C would give greatest strength retension; maybe even waiting for last tuck 1 more half time around to exit next to Standing like in properly finishing of Square (or "Simple Simon"/Crossed Round Turn(8) version of the SheetBend); as system will compress up anyway to look just about like (uncrossed) Round Turn (as applied to this Noose). Particularly maid for slipped into the bight (as well as 'strength')?

Perhaps another inter-arresting diversion would be a test on Single, Double(Scaffold), Triple, maybe even 'Quad' etc. Nooses. Like to see, where the line of diminishing marginal 'returns' was for strength(starting from single up). And how that strength can be effected by Round Turn on mount/bolt/eye first, before Noose / shrinking eye formed.

i guess in the bumper tie, i was meaning like some version of Tensionless Hitch (to another anchor); whereby "strength" was ruled by the size of the mount(how it deforms Standing), rather than how eye deforms/leverages Standing etc. (even more).


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## pdqdl (Oct 20, 2009)

A lot of thought went into this thread, and every time I looked at the permutations of a figure-8, I kept seeing similarities to how a timber hitch is tied. 

Having made that connection...how are any of these superior to a well tied timber hitch?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 21, 2009)

They are alike in that a Timber with a Round Turn around the Standing is better. A fig.8 style Timber is better than a 'simple' Half Hitch style Timber.

They are different in that a Timber relies on convex mount at the nip positions where the 'twirls' of the 'loose splice' press against the mount; noose doesn't depend on mount for nip. Also, can be easier to tie these nooses because you come around and don't double back/everything is on 'top'. A noose can seize up easier, but then is more secure too; and take less line, especially on a large mount.


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## moray (Oct 21, 2009)

I had a dead limb to take out of my big poplar tree today, so I used derwoodii's knot, version A, for my SRT anchor. Not really a good test as the load on the knot is very very low. (And for those who are going to jump on me for using the carabiner that way, the load on it is very very low as well.) The next time I have to pull something with a vehicle I will give the knot a real test.


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## pdqdl (Oct 21, 2009)

Did I catch that right? You are TESTING a knot's reliability by putting it on a SRT line?

Please don't do that anymore. I like your test reports too much to advise this kind of test. Use it for a rigging knot that holds a chunk of wood, not yourself.


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## blewgrass (Oct 22, 2009)

> Did I catch that right? You are TESTING a knot's reliability by putting it on a SRT line?
> 
> Please don't do that anymore. I like your test reports too much to advise this kind of test. Use it for a rigging knot that holds a chunk of wood, not yourself.



:agree2:


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## moray (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks for the concern, guys, but come on! 

There was like a 50-foot tail on that knot. Anyone ever hear of a knot swallowing 50 feet of tail? When I tested the knot to 4500 lbs. it ate only 2 or 3 _inches _of tail.

Could it break? Not from anything I could do to it without a hydraulic cylinder. The bottom line is that the worst knot in the world with a 50-foot tail would be perfectly safe for an SRT anchor. Optimum, maybe not, but safe, yes.

But quite seriously, I am thinking of making this my standard SRT anchor knot. I had been using a fig. 8 on a bight or an alpine butterfly, but for the last dozen times I used a simple overhand on a bight. All of them with a long tail. This new noose is easier to untie than any of the above and about equal to the overhand in ease of tying. And I like the cinching action of the noose--it removes some slop from the system that doesn't need any slop. If I ever have to tie it with a short tail, I will of course stopper it.

What's not to like?


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## pdqdl (Oct 23, 2009)

Silly me, I presumed that you were TESTING the knot by loading it with your own weight. What kind of test is it where the knot cannot come undone? Besides, you didn't mention the long tail before.

For an SRT anchor point, you should consider using something that can be used as a friction device to lower you out of the tree with.

I don't do SRT yet, but I do hang my DRT from a line, so the effect is the same. Wrap the anchor line around the tree a few times, maybe adding a marl or two, and then it won't matter what knot you use. Once, I never tied it at all, I just went around the tree 7 times. (using my children as groundmen while playing in a tree)

_(I got that concept here at AS from D Mc. So far, I have liked it better than any other approach to getting into a tree.)_


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## moray (Oct 23, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Silly me, I presumed that you were TESTING the knot ...



Ah, now I see the problem. My bad. It was my careless use of the word _testing_, which I meant in the sense of "test drive," not "experimental test."

I would like, as you suggest, to put a Porty or some other device at the bottom so someone could lower me if needed, but the great bulk of the time I am working the tree alone and it would be pretty useless. I have lowered someone else on a few occasions just for the practice, which always strikes me as pretty cool.


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## blewgrass (Oct 23, 2009)

the tail length was my biggest concern.


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## pdqdl (Oct 23, 2009)

Ahhh...I begin to understand.

When you began referring to that slip-eight as a mid-line knot, I did not understand why you would refer to it as such, nor why you would be calling it that when the original use was for lowering logs. Since you seem to be using it as an anchor tie for your carabiner at the base of your SRT, I can see the need for testing it as a mid-line knot. _Just out of curiosity, why do you have such a long tail on your SRT anchor, especially since you do not seem to be setting yourself up to be lowered from it?_

Give that man-harness knot a try. It's even easier to untie than your slip-eight.


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## moray (Oct 23, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> ..._Just out of curiosity, why do you have such a long tail on your SRT anchor, especially since you do not seem to be setting yourself up to be lowered from it?_



Sometimes I have my saw with me and I want to drop some limbs. If the rope I climb barely reaches the ground it is easy to pull it up to get it out of the way of falling wood. All the excess rope is on the other side of the tree where the anchor is. The excess *is* the long tail of my knot. The other reason is to spread out the wear on the rope by tying the anchor knot in many different places but only rarely at the end of the rope.


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## pdqdl (Oct 24, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *ABOK 1116, THE FIGURE-EIGHT NOOSE*



Neat knot, but there is a slight problem: when the slip is pulled out, an overhand knot remains to be untied. Conversely, it is not practical to use this as a midline knot.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 24, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *ABOK 1116, THE FIGURE-EIGHT NOOSE*





pdqdl said:


> Neat knot, but there is a slight problem: when the slip is pulled out, an overhand knot remains to be untied. Conversely, it is not practical to use this as a midline knot.



Oh, make no mistake, I don't particularly care for the ABOK 1116. Just pointing out the knot in the pic is an ABOK 1116 and the name, (FIGURE-EIGHT NOOSE) has already been taken.

However, I DO think *derwoodii's *knot does have some real potential - a lot better than ABOK 1116. It ties and unties so damn nice, I'll be trying it for awhile on non-critical loads. But, it'll might be awhile before it replaces the butterfly or bowline on a bight - if ever.

Not too sure about us calling it; "DERWOODII", though. If it holds up to scrutiny, he should pick the name, IMO.


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## ray benson (Oct 24, 2009)

blewgrass said:


> except that it's already called a figure eight slip knot. see section 4-25 here for a precedent.


Nice site.
Figure 8 slip knot(4-25)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-25.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Oct 24, 2009)

blewgrass said:


> except that it's already called a figure eight slip knot. see section 4-25 here for a precedent.
> 
> edit: pdqdl- at the above link there is also a knot that looks alot like the manharness or pioneer knot that you have described in the past. They call it a wireman's knot and it's at section 4-16.





ray benson said:


> Nice site.
> Figure 8 slip knot(4-25)
> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-97-61/ch4.htm#fig4-25.



Good posts you guys - still like the knot!!!






rep'd you both - so much for derwoodii naming it - but rep'd him for bringing it to light.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 25, 2009)

i would think that the ABoK version (or the 1 more Turn to exit more as square Knot) would be stronger, and ride the cinch up more squarely. Also, in a slipped formation, give easy release. With the final Turn before tuck (so tail exits and lines up against Standing like Square Knot); has a fair Crossed Round Turn, and also fairly similar to the shown stronger, Scaffold/ Double Noose/ dbl. fisherman's; except for the nipping strategy for the final Bitter.


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## derwoodii (Oct 27, 2009)

Interesting vids about rope here 

How you make it n test it 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyDHBNix6hA&feature=related

How to break it 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDIo-WZkSaM

How to cook it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU9blgxH15w&feature=related

How to or maybe? not to test it. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybj2RxYOVB0&NR=1


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 29, 2009)

Perhaps another simple test would be of a small sling choked vs. same choked while forming a Round Turn about it's Standing /Tension 'legs'.

The first/normal method only deforms/ destabilizes the support legs. The second, does same; but then offers more of a 'bracing'/more stabilizing 'collar' around the deformed support legs. Some strain reliefs for cords etc tend to work like this somewhat IMLHO.

Similar to a Single Noose vs a Dbl. Noose (Scaffold), Timber or Cow normal, or with the Round Turn 'collar' around the support leg(s). Or "C" waiting another Turn to make final tuck/ finish looking like ends of Square; as this compresses down to about same 'collaring'/less destabilizing than simple Turn around leg(s) of support.

Clove Hitch type / continuous direction lacings are different than non-continuous direction; for they lose tensile efficiency more (at correct angles of pull) on the 'base' way the host/ mount Turns deform Standing. i say 'base' way; for this is a given that all hitches/knots encounter.


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## derwoodii (Oct 16, 2010)

Ok all giday again, its been a year any reports + or - if your been using the figure 8 slip knot.


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## moray (Oct 16, 2010)

I've stopped using it--it seems too bulky and clunky somehow. Instead I have become a fan of pdqdl's man-harness knot tied as a mid-line loop for an SRT anchor.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 16, 2010)

I still have the same feelings as I did a year ago....


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## pdqdl (Oct 16, 2010)

moray said:


> I've stopped using it--it seems too bulky and clunky somehow. Instead I have become a fan of pdqdl's man-harness knot tied as a mid-line loop for an SRT anchor.



Very cool. I will consider your conversion to be high praise for my knot of preference. It does tie very fast and easy, doesn't it?


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## lone wolf (Oct 16, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> what happens if it tightens up and you can't untied it? I will always use the bowline, been using it for 21 years and put some heavy loads on it and never had it once get to tight to untie.


 I agree and what is this knot the new school guys use that pulls out real fast on the ground when rigging branches?


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## derwoodii (Oct 16, 2010)

moray said:


> I've stopped using it--it seems too bulky and clunky somehow. Instead I have become a fan of pdqdl's man-harness knot tied as a mid-line loop for an SRT anchor.



Ok ta fast replies, a year on nice to see all workin safe and well.

I kinda agree, I still use it but I would eh. However I have said, it does not me super confident, perhaps just to simple. While the well learned and industry trusted knots never leave you cold. 
Whats this man harness? pdqdl can you post a pic or link.
I'll defend its untie, rarely cinches and after your groundie gets it, he fast n happy.


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## pdqdl (Oct 17, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> ...
> Whats this man harness? pdqdl can you post a pic or link.
> I'll defend its untie, rarely cinches and after your groundie gets it, he fast n happy.



No problem, dude. Here is the link to the original thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=115527&highlight=pioneer+knot

My original post on this knot is post #37 of this thread:: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=77820&highlight=pioneer

Moray did some of his outstanding rope/knot testing, and the knot figured pretty well. _Be sure you learn how to use the knot before you get in trouble with it!_ As Moray pointed out, this is a real chameleon knot; tied right but set or loaded poorly, this will slide down and make a choker on the standing end.


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## Damon (Oct 17, 2010)

when i was lobstering we used to use a knot very simialr to these my old man called a pucker what we would do is tie an overhand knot just like moray did and back it up with a second overhand directly behind in the bitter end to keep it from slipping we used this to pucker up balls of rope when we had snarls of gear to make it easier to haul and least in 3 strand this knot was bullet proof but you have to back it up with a second knot in the bitter end, as for untieing them we usually just took the knife to it as we 3 strand 12 thread by the pound not by the foot so cost was not an issue


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2011)

My midline knot is bowline on the bight.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2011)

lone wolf said:


> I agree and what is this knot the new school guys use that pulls out real fast on the ground when rigging branches?



The knot is not new I used it in the early eighties with grass rope and its simular to derwoodi knot but uses a bight in the last step and the groundie just pulls tail to untie!


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