# Should I start a business????



## swyman (Nov 1, 2010)

Here's my story as short as I can do it... I have had a welding/fab shop as a side business but recently let go from my full time job. I do not want to go back to a factory and want to try and make it on my own. My fab shop does not currently bring in enough to make it but I will have a yellow page add starting in Jan. I still don't believe that I will get enough work to use as sole means of income. I have an central boiler and it likes wood. Now I have access to my grandma's woods for firewood that is 1 mile away. I believe that someday I will nothave access to it and then how will I get wood??? I have been tossing the idea around for a couple years about starting a tree service but was scared to pull the trigger. I have a new 200T, MS460 with 20" and 32" bars, Bobcat 873 with forks to pickup logs, a 30' gooseneck trailer to haul logs away and right now could use to remove brush from trees that I take down. I am looking into buying a bucket/chipper truck but not getting a chipper till I could make some money as I feel this would get me started the quickest and most labor efficient. Have checked on insurance and is reasonable. I think if I had a yellow page add for both businesses that I should be able to stay busy and make a living and get my firewood. Was also thinking of taking an arborist class at a local community college to learn more about trees. The only thing that I am nervous about is finding help. How do you find someone to help???? I have high hopes that a tree service would be a great business to get into and with my equipment I think I could be efficient and would only need 1 maybe 2 people to help. I have checked on renting a stump grinder so I could also provide that service if required. I still have a few weeks to decide as the yellow pages book comes out in Jan. What do you guys think?????


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## prentice110 (Nov 1, 2010)

I have no idea what your experience level is, or your local 'treeconomy', but if you have a 873 bobcat your already ahead of the game, IF your a decent climber. Just 1 mans opinion, that doesent know your situation. I know that its bad in Minisoda, otherwise you guys wouldnt be runnin all over the country knockin on doors for $1200 a day for a 6 man crew. If your a good welder , you'll be able to fix all the crap that your guys WILL break on you.


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## swyman (Nov 1, 2010)

prentice110 said:


> I have no idea what your experience level is, or your local 'treeconomy', but if you have a 873 bobcat your already ahead of the game, IF your a decent climber. Just 1 mans opinion, that doesent know your situation. I know that its bad in Minisoda, otherwise you guys wouldnt be runnin all over the country knockin on doors for $1200 a day for a 6 man crew. If your a good welder , you'll be able to fix all the crap that your guys WILL break on you.



I am a millwright by trade and have cut and split firewood all my life. I have not however, done any tree climbing but am tossing around the idea of getting a climbing kit. I assume the one with spikes would be the one to get although I like the rope climbing gear and have done some but I don't think I could cut down a tree with that method. I have a coach from a guy that was in the business and he says I would get plenty of work as long as I'm in the YP. Also he told me to go around and give quotes to people that have dead trees to be removed or leave in mailbox if not home. I still am clueless on finding help?


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## TimberJack_7 (Nov 1, 2010)

Oh boy....


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## TimberMcPherson (Nov 2, 2010)

swyman said:


> I am a millwright by trade and have cut and split firewood all my life. I have not however, done any tree climbing but am tossing around the idea of getting a climbing kit. I assume the one with spikes would be the one to get although I like the rope climbing gear and have done some but I don't think I could cut down a tree with that method. I have a coach from a guy that was in the business and he says I would get plenty of work as long as I'm in the YP. Also he told me to go around and give quotes to people that have dead trees to be removed or leave in mailbox if not home. I still am clueless on finding help?



If you want to get into this game seriously your going to need to find a good climber, pay him well, possibly get him to do the quotes as well. He is going to have a big part to play in seeing you do things safely and to a standard that will make your business. You will learn ALOT quick. But your going to be very reliant on skilled guys. 

Its a big step, going from firewooding to arboriculture is like going from scrap metal to fabrication. And chasing dead tree work is fabrication on a sinking and burning oil platform.


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## treeseer (Nov 2, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> ... chasing dead tree work is fabrication on a sinking and burning oil platform.


a tree biz with no tree climber is like a welding shop with no welder. gear does not get you ahead of the game; the game has not started yet if you can't get up the tree.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 2, 2010)

TimberJack_7 said:


> Oh boy....



Haha, I hear ya. 
Jeff


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## swyman (Nov 2, 2010)

So you guys are saying NFW, don't waste my time/money? A bucket would get me in most places. Where do I find a climbing school near Michigan then? I guess I will do a search but just starting out with limited funds, I don't see how I could afford a climber till I get on my feet. Maybe I should put the gun away?


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## prentice110 (Nov 2, 2010)

swyman said:


> So you guys are saying NFW, don't waste my time/money? A bucket would get me in most places. Where do I find a climbing school near Michigan then? I guess I will do a search but just starting out with limited funds, I don't see how I could afford a climber till I get on my feet. Maybe I should put the gun away?



Unless your looking to shoot yourself in the foot...


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## tree MDS (Nov 2, 2010)

To be brutally honest Shane, I think you're too old get into this gig at this point. I can say that because I'm 37 myself. The thing is I have the time in - been around treework sinse I was 15, full time sinse 17. 

It's not rocket science, but you need to put in your time.. it would be years before you would be of any real value as a "tree service". Bobcat or not.

From firewood cutter guy at Grandma's, to tree service? I just dont see it.


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## lxt (Nov 2, 2010)

WHY??? OH WHY????

im a welder, im a millwright, im a plumber, im an electrician, im a carpenter, im in construction, etc...etc...

why do you people even think you can start a tree service??? yes you`ll start it, low ball every job, give the trade a black eye & then you`ll finish off your service in 3-4 months after you have ruined every tree you`ve touched!!

I hate other tradesmen who want to jump into this arena!!! its not for pride, or even want......its to make a buck!!! go start a brothel in vegas & leave this trade alone.........do all you wannabe jackwagons understand!! GO AWAY!!!!!



LXT..................


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## Cutler tree (Nov 2, 2010)

I think you'd be ok to start myself. If I were you, I'd first try to find a good climber. Try craigslist or this site, or your mentor that you have. Another tip is to farm out your stump grinding to someone and be loyal to them, the guy in our area knows everyone in the biz and hooked us up with our climber and tons of good advice. Next get a groundguy/ laborer and use him to work both gigs. Your climber should have another job and only work part time for you so find out what his schedule is and work around it. When you go bid jobs don't lowball, bid high but answer your phone, show up on time, follow up, most of all be friendly and professional. Be honest with everyone your workers and customers. Dump as much as you can into the companies.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 2, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> I think you'd be ok to start myself. If I were you, I'd first try to find a good climber. Try craigslist or this site, or your mentor that you have. Another tip is to farm out your stump grinding to someone and be loyal to them, the guy in our area knows everyone in the biz and hooked us up with our climber and tons of good advice. Next get a groundguy/ laborer and use him to work both gigs. Your climber should have another job and only work part time for you so find out what his schedule is and work around it. When you go bid jobs don't lowball, bid high but answer your phone, show up on time, follow up, most of all be friendly and professional. Be honest with everyone your workers and customers. Dump as much as you can into the companies.



How the hell is he gonna bid on something he knows nothing about. Your encouragement could aid in this guy getting hurt. Ridiculous! Is this FTA under a new name???
Jeff


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## Cutler tree (Nov 2, 2010)

*Let me elaborate*

He's dropped trees for firewood, he can guess how long a job will take. I would say bid at 60 per manhour if you're off and it takes you 3 times as long you're still at 20 per manhour which where I'm at breaks you even on your climber and puts you at 10 ahead on your groundie. If you club the homeowners head in give them some money back. YOUR CLIMBER RUNS THE SHOW!!!!! With a good climber he should be safe.If you do some easy stuff like a removal that you feel completely comfortable with then you and your groundie can handle those. In the begining you're better off losing bids because you're too high than cutting your own throat. Jeff, do you still climb? do you make more money now than when you did? you can farm out the skills that you don't have all day everyday. you can turn down any job you don't feel is within your TEAM"S skillset, and by all means stay safe my friend but we are talking about weather or not you can start a business not if you can climb a tree. I agree that a tree service without a climber is like a fab shop without a welder, but how many shop owners that have more than 10 employees still weld? I understand that ideally he would have 10 full time years in tree service but he doesn't that doesn't make it impossible. If he can sell better than others and build a great team he will be successfull, if you can outwork, climb, rig, trim everyone but you can't sell and won't hire a salesman you're in trouble


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 2, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> He's dropped trees for firewood, he can guess how long a job will take. I would say bid at 60 per manhour if you're off and it takes you 3 times as long you're still at 20 per manhour which where I'm at breaks you even on your climber and puts you at 10 ahead on your groundie. If you club the homeowners head in give them some money back. YOUR CLIMBER RUNS THE SHOW!!!!! With a good climber he should be safe.If you do some easy stuff like a removal that you feel completely comfortable with then you and your groundie can handle those. In the begining you're better off losing bids because you're too high than cutting your own throat. Jeff, do you still climb? do you make more money now than when you did? you can farm out the skills that you don't have all day everyday. you can turn down any job you don't feel is within your TEAM"S skillset, and by all means stay safe my friend but we are talking about weather or not you can start a business not if you can climb a tree. I agree that a tree service without a climber is like a fab shop without a welder, but how many shop owners that have more than 10 employees still weld? I understand that ideally he would have 10 full time years in tree service but he doesn't that doesn't make it impossible. If he can sell better than others and build a great team he will be successfull, if you can outwork, climb, rig, trim everyone but you can't sell and won't hire a salesman you're in trouble



Wow, what are you on, Dude? You seem to be just what he need's (in your mind), It seems like you should hook up with him (even tho he did not express the desire to pursue a vision of your's). He will learn the hard way like all do, and I bet he figures it all out by himself and be happy he did not listen to you.
BTW, don't worry if I climb, ask if I can! smart-ass.
Jeff


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## Rftreeman (Nov 3, 2010)

no, you should not, there are enough already....


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 3, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Wow, what are you on, Dude? You seem to be just what he need's (in your mind), It seems like you should hook up with him (even tho he did not express the desire to pursue a vision of your's). He will learn the hard way like all do, and I bet he figures it all out by himself and be happy he did not listen to you.
> BTW, don't worry if I climb, ask if I can! smart-ass.
> Jeff


 
Now Jeff!, don't go and get all bent out of shape!
You should recognize infinite wisdom when you see it!!!


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## tree MDS (Nov 3, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Now Jeff!, don't go and get all bent out of shape!
> You should recognize infinite wisdom when you see it!!!



Nice one!


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## rmh3481 (Nov 3, 2010)

swyman,
If you dont do it now you never will. Pray first and then get to it.


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## arbor pro (Nov 3, 2010)

Swyman, while you may have the equipment covered, that doesn't give you the experience and knowledge necessary to do anything other than cut simple firewood trees down. If you want to knock a few trees down for firewood, then go ahead but don't advertise as a tree service because you're not an arborist and you shouldn't mislead customers into thinking you are. 

Just because arboriculture is, for the most part, unregulated in this country, it doesn't mean it isn't a trade that requires some knowledge and training. The trade deserves some respect. Most arborists and not merely firewood cutters and we tend to be offended by the lack of appreciation for our skill and training. We actually care about tree care.

Now, if you feel as passionately about tree care as I do, then take some classes and get some training before going out on your own. If you're just looking for a quick way to make a buck then stick to firewood processing. As was previously mentioned, your lack of experience will lead you to lowballing jobs in order to get work and you will only contribute to the demise of this profession by driving experienced arborists out of business. I'm all for small business and competition but I'm also for consumer protection. Too many consumers hire tree cutters thinking they're getting a trained arborist and then bad things ensue. 

Either distinguish yourself as merely a tree cutter or go get the training necessary to advertise yourself as an actual tree service. A tree service IMO does more than just knock trees down for firewood. 

AP


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## BCbound (Nov 3, 2010)

I would consonstrate on your welding biz. That's what you know best and will most likely have the most success. If your slow find a good tree service and work partime for them stating your aspirations of one day doing your own thing. Probably and get paid crap but hopfully learn some good basic skills(proper pruning, no spikes). 

If that's not your thing. Start a bobcat/clean up biz. Target tree and landscape companies that don't have a bobcat to move lots of material around. I use a sub company for this type of work regularly in the summer time. Stick a blower attachment on it and grab some winter work. 

I think the bobcat biz is the easiest and most economical start up.


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## ronnyb (Nov 3, 2010)

Hells yes you should start a tree biz. If you can weld good you should have no problem doing tree work. Money does grow on trees, you just gotta be able to get up there and cut it out.


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## Cutler tree (Nov 3, 2010)

*My bad*

Jeff I'm sorry you're right I'm wrong you're smart I'm dumb No way can someone start a business and hire help. Hey I have a question, I'm sure you can climb my friend but can you make a better hamburger that Mcdonalds? You can? One more question, can you make a better business than Mcdonalds?


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 3, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> Jeff I'm sorry you're right I'm wrong you're smart I'm dumb No way can someone start a business and hire help. Hey I have a question, I'm sure you can climb my friend but can you make a better hamburger that Mcdonalds? You can? One more question, can you make a better business than Mcdonalds?



I am so sorry I am so abrasive! We can talk. I think your post shows a vision that anyone with a chainsaw and toys is gonna get in this. If that is true, you should be his mentor. As stated previously, he should stick to what he knows, unless he is, what-ever
Jeff


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## DangerTree (Nov 3, 2010)

Frankly my friend you can get your self into all kinds of trouble in this business even knowing what your doing. I started my tree service after going through the ropes, bucking, felling, heli logging and rigging. That did not prepare me for the business end of things. Dismantling large very dead trees over homes and power lines is highly skilled work and should never be attempted by an inexperienced guy. Hiring a climber is a must if you can't do it yourself. Bucket trucks are fairly limited where they can go and many times are way too short. I find my truck just carries all my gear most of the time. And yes when you can levitate impossible trees from weird places and land them on a stamp you will be payed well-I am paid very well. I command $1000.00 a day if my boots leave the ground. I am 47 years old, very fit, quite experienced and I know that there is still much to learn and one day I will not be able to do this anymore. It is all I know,all I've ever done. Give it a try start small -maybe lot clearing by the way I have set people up in climbing gear and they feel very awkward try it you will see. Then if you get up top a 150' tree to 4 inches and have to behead it many guys spook right out. I had to remove a guy once cuz he froze really!


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Nov 3, 2010)

If you decide to start it up better take the time to do it right. People around here are all getting laid off by aircraft manufacturers and suddenly everyone has an ad for a tree service/handyman. No license or insurance. Then there's lawn crews that do the same thing. No license and no idea how to properly cut rig etc. Lowest bids for a reason. I'm sure everyone else on here deals with the same daily.


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Nov 3, 2010)

I gotta give you a lil more credit than that though. To them truck + ladder + chainsaw = tree service.


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 3, 2010)

Can you start a tree care business? Yes.

Should you start a tree care business? Not yet, if ever. Not that it is impossible, and not to discourage you but....

I'd stick to what you know and contact tree services about what you can do for them and you'll get the work and the wood.

If you're in yellowbook as a weldor, and you are a weldor, then you'll likely be too busy to pose as a tree service. It would become an unwanted distraction. Even being a first class wood grabber might become a pain once you are stocked up.


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## newsawtooth (Nov 3, 2010)

At the risk of riling up the masses...you may be able to make some money with your equipment. You could farm the gear out to other tree services. Figure out what your overhead is and try to find some small tree services that might need a trailer, skid steer, and groundman. You could even answer want ads for groundmen to see if you like the operation before you offer your equipment and fabrication experience (which is helpful in this biz). They probably won't have an interest in training you as they'd be training the competition....but who knows you could be as charming as FTA...where is FTA? Did he finish that pine yet? Yoda Jeffers, do we have to send you out for a welfare check on our favorite air-spade manufacturer? And Plas, where the hell has Plas been...anyone seen Clearance? I digress...carry on.


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## mikewhite85 (Nov 4, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> At the risk of riling up the masses...you may be able to make some money with your equipment. You could farm the gear out to other tree services. Figure out what your overhead is and try to find some small tree services that might need a trailer, skid steer, and groundman. You could even answer want ads for groundmen to see if you like the operation before you offer your equipment and fabrication experience (which is helpful in this biz). They probably won't have an interest in training you as they'd be training the competition....but who knows you could be as charming as FTA...where is FTA? Did he finish that pine yet? Yoda Jeffers, do we have to send you out for a welfare check on our favorite air-spade manufacturer? And Plas, where the hell has Plas been...anyone seen Clearance? I digress...carry on.



I was thinking along the same lines. Call a bunch of local tree companies and say you will charge them 300-400 bucks a day + miles for you and your bobcat. You will get experience and perhaps a part time ground man job (maybe 15 per hour) when they don't need your machine. I would love to have someone help me out with a bobcat. A machine like that does the job of 10 men. A sub like you would save me a ton on labor. 

Then after you have done that for a few years get your contractor's license and start your own show,


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## prentice110 (Nov 4, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> YOUR CLIMBER RUNS THE SHOW!!!!! With a good climber he should be safe.If you do some easy stuff like a removal that you feel completely comfortable with then you and your groundie can handle those. In the begining you're better off losing bids because you're too high than cutting your own throat. you can farm out the skills that you don't have all day everyday. you can turn down any job you don't feel is within your TEAM"S skillset, and by all means stay safe my friend but we are talking about weather or not you can start a business not if you can climb a tree. I understand that ideally he would have 10 full time years in tree service but he doesn't that doesn't make it impossible. If he can sell better than others and build a great team he will be successfull, if you can outwork, climb, rig, trim everyone but you can't sell and won't hire a salesman you're in trouble


 Thats exactly what happend to me after I lost my salesman. And Jeff, what exactly is it that you have logged so firmly up your ass that makes you act like the king of this site? I bet your one of those pussies hiding behind a bunch of certs and paperwork, that make you think your a climber. I lived in san d for a while. all you guys do is de-from palms all day. I bet you wouldnt last 2 weeks with me if I told you the mini was off limits to you. Id love to see you in action, you probly never put down your coffee mug, and your probly crying right now cuz the leagal reefer thing fell thru for ya. cry me a river you whineing sniveling lil ##### boy.


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 4, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> Swyman, while you may have the equipment covered, that doesn't give you the experience and knowledge necessary to do anything other than cut simple firewood trees down. If you want to knock a few trees down for firewood, then go ahead but don't advertise as a tree service because you're not an arborist and you shouldn't mislead customers into thinking you are.
> 
> Just because arboriculture is, for the most part, unregulated in this country, it doesn't mean it isn't a trade that requires some knowledge and training. The trade deserves some respect. Most arborists and not merely firewood cutters and we tend to be offended by the lack of appreciation for our skill and training. We actually care about tree care.
> 
> ...



Very well said, in fact, I am going to use some of this verbiage, with your permission of course, when presenting my "shape up or get out" speech to the guys always trying to pick my brain about starting.
again...well said


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## arbor pro (Nov 4, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Very well said, in fact, I am going to use some of this verbiage, with your permission of course, when presenting my "shape up or get out" speech to the guys always trying to pick my brain about starting.
> again...well said



$10/word as quoted, $8/word if paraphrased, $5 just to think about what I've already thought about...

I accept PayPal. 

AP


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## swyman (Nov 4, 2010)

lxt said:


> WHY??? OH WHY????
> 
> im a welder, im a millwright, im a plumber, im an electrician, im a carpenter, im in construction, etc...etc...
> 
> ...



Lay down and lick'em ahole. I never do anything without fully researching first and I thought this forum would be a great place to start. If all the local people have your attitude, I would low ball so you wouldn't get any work! (if you were in my area) I enjoy cutting wood and working hard and I can't stand people like you. I am just merely posting for advice and you want to criticize me? Just don't get it.:bringit:


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 4, 2010)

prentice110 said:


> Thats exactly what happend to me after I lost my salesman. And Jeff, what exactly is it that you have logged so firmly up your ass that makes you act like the king of this site? I bet your one of those pussies hiding behind a bunch of certs and paperwork, that make you think your a climber. I lived in san d for a while. all you guys do is de-from palms all day. I bet you wouldnt last 2 weeks with me if I told you the mini was off limits to you. Id love to see you in action, you probly never put down your coffee mug, and your probly crying right now cuz the leagal reefer thing fell thru for ya. cry me a river you whineing sniveling lil ##### boy.



Sounds like you are trying to hurt my feelings. 
Jeff


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## NCTREE (Nov 4, 2010)

swyman said:


> Lay down and lick'em ahole. I never do anything without fully researching first and I thought this forum would be a great place to start. If all the local people have your attitude, I would low ball so you wouldn't get any work! (if you were in my area) I enjoy cutting wood and working hard and I can't stand people like you. I am just merely posting for advice and you want to criticize me? Just don't get it.:bringit:



As harsh as it sounds lxt is right, Its not as simple as doing a little research on a discussion forum. Just because you can notch and drop a few tooth picks doesn't mean your an arborist. 

I'm with lxt find a some other trade degrade jacky!!!


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## jrr344 (Nov 4, 2010)

Know one knew everything when they start a business if it is something you want to do, do it. When you come to something you can't do find some one that can to help you and move on, it is ridiculous for people to say it can't be done people have been do this for years without "proper" training.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 4, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> Know one knew everything when they start a business if it is something you want to do, do it. When you come to something you can't do find some one that can to help you.



That is what I and a few sane tree guy's are saying. Not knowing everything is far different than knowing nothing about this biz.
Jeff


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## swyman (Nov 4, 2010)

Okay, enough already. This will finalize this post as I kan't bee leave ey wuz smarrt enuf two eavan poast too thes sight.......:deadhorse:


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 4, 2010)

swyman said:


> Okay, enough already. This will finalize this post as I kan't bee leave ey wuz smarrt enuf two eavan poast too thes sight.......:deadhorse:



This is an example of 'TUI', typing under the influence.
Jeff


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## TrillPhil (Nov 4, 2010)

swyman said:


> Okay, enough already. This will finalize this post as I kan't bee leave ey wuz smarrt enuf two eavan poast too thes sight.......:deadhorse:



I wouldn't take the comments so personally. The advice is true there is no substitute for experience. There are an unlimited amount of guys who go and knock on doors and low-ball jobs and there are more starting up all the time, tree work is competitive and you'd better be thick skinned. To get decent paying jobs you must be able to sell, and then exceed their expectations to get referrals. (hell I work with some guy's on weekends that low ball, I can work one saturday, and make almost what I do in a 40 hour week, gotta pay the bills and there is no shame in hard work, especially when I give up my weekend)

The truth is if you want something as bad as you want to breathe, then you will be successful. If you don't, then don't waste your time, the money isn't as fast or as easy as it seems. The danger and close calls, much more so.


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## ThePruner (Nov 4, 2010)

You can only do as much as you believe you can.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 4, 2010)

I see a slow coming de-rail. Learn our biz before you think can do it.
Jeff


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## beowulf343 (Nov 5, 2010)

To the op, should you personally start a tree business? I've got to say no. You just have no experience in the business. Cutting firewood and tree removal or trimming are two completely different animals. My old man has been logging his entire life, yet i don't ask him to run rope for me on sidejobs simply because although he is very knowledgeable about felling trees, dropping a tree in a postage stamp sized area takes a completely different set of skills. I also don't agree with picking up a bucket before a chipper-most people don't realize how much brush a tree will produce and dicing it in the back of a pickup is no fun for anyone. 

But i'm not even going completely say no due to your lack of experience. That can be overcome with picking up a good treeman like others have mentioned. (I'm not going to say you just need a climber, cause you need an all around treeman, someone who can climb, run a bucket, and trim or do a removal from either. Not all climbers are bucket operators.) And so your *need* for a treeman is going to hurt you. A good treeman can be hard to find. A guy you trust to basically run your company can be even harder. If he doesn't feel like showing up to do a job or calls off because of a hangover, are you going to climb the tree? Nope, and now you've let down a customer. 
So, you are looking for a good treeman, dependable. But what do you have to offer him. Many, many of the good, dependable treemen have gone and started their own outfits. There are still some dependable guys around though who prefer not to run a business. But, how are you going to attract him? I got to thinking about this personally, could you lure someone like me away from my current job? Could you guarantee forty hours a week, a weekly paycheck that won't bounce, dependable ground guys, dependable equipment, actual treework throughout the winter (none of this snowplowing crap), full health coverage and retirement benefits, or even a salary close to my current one. That right there is the problem, the dependable guys that don't have their own business are usually in a position or are making a wage that you can't hope to match. 

Anyway, good luck whatever you do.


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## NCTREE (Nov 5, 2010)

not to mention having enough knowledge and experience to give customers the right advice about their trees.


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 5, 2010)

:notrolls2:


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## jrr344 (Nov 5, 2010)

I remember when I quit my job as a diesel mechanic and went to work for a Natural Gas Pipeline and knew nothing about it when I first started all the UNION members told me I was in over my head and I need to start out cleaning trucks and sweeping floors, but common sense tells you how to do the easy stuff and I told the union guys to F$%# off and I asked the few nonunion members for help when I needed help. You people act like you need 40yrs to figure stuff out if you need that long that is probably why people are choosing lowballers over your work.


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## lxt (Nov 5, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> I remember when I quit my job as a diesel mechanic and went to work for a Natural Gas Pipeline and knew nothing about it when I first started all the UNION members told me I was in over my head and I need to start out cleaning trucks and sweeping floors, but common sense tells you how to do the easy stuff and I told the union guys to F$%# off and I asked the few nonunion members for help when I needed help. You people act like you need 40yrs to figure stuff out if you need that long that is probably why people are choosing lowballers over your work.





Look Jackwagon, noone said you need 40 yrs, However......you need more than desire & a chainsaw!!

In this trade you truly wont have faced every scenario untill you have around 10 years of doing it steady & even then something new pops up!! these guys that go work for someone for 1-3yrs & then think they have enough knowledge to go it on their own are seriously wrong!!!

I remember apprenticeships being 5yrs, then due to lack of labor they drop it to 2yrs....then finally to 18months, they need bodies out there & need to satisfy training requirements, in my area just this past year 2 people dead from electrocution & 1 guy 29 yrs old with a broken back, never to do tree work again!!

point..... they all had a couple years exp. & thought they knew what they were doing, they "WERE" competition, now their not! this is not the way I want competitors to go away. 

Through stupidity of one without enough time in the trade or some wannabe just jumping into it for the money is the reason this trade will become regulated!!!!! So all you I want to climb, own a tree biz types without the "proper" knowledge/time in the trade.....YOU`RE DESTROYING IT....!!

Man, is it wrong that I dislike these types so much? I`d like to stick their pathetic asses up in a sycamore on a rain day to take hang off a house or powerline........how long you think you`ll wanna do this work then??




LXT.....................


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## jrr344 (Nov 5, 2010)

That is your argument that two guys with no or some experience got hurt people who have done it their whole life have got hurt. 
You sound like a union thug you dont want competition and you think you are the only one who can do it. I am sure when you quit some one will replace you, its amazing to me that you guys think you have to have 10 yrs. of experience to do anything. It brings me back to where I used to work you could take the test ,because of the union, and get all your Qualifications, which I had all of them within two years, but you couldn't get the pay because the union thought it took ten year to get the qualifications. I am not saying he is qualified or not I don't know the guy, but I have found that if you want to do something you should at least try, everyone knows their own boundaries.


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## lxt (Nov 5, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> That is your argument that two guys with no or some experience got hurt people who have done it their whole life have got hurt.
> You sound like a union thug you dont want competition and you think you are the only one who can do it. I am sure when you quit some one will replace you, its amazing to me that you guys think you have to have 10 yrs. of experience to do anything. It brings me back to where I used to work you could take the test ,because of the union, and get all your Qualifications, which I had all of them within two years, but you couldn't get the pay because the union thought it took ten year to get the qualifications. I am not saying he is qualified or not I don't know the guy, but I have found that if you want to do something you should at least try, everyone knows their own boundaries.




Union thug.......NO WAY!

yes those with exp. have gotten hurt....but theres a difference, They knew better!!!!!

Due to the fact you think just being qualified/certified makes you "GOOD" then go have your prostrate checked by some one who has just got their certs. or lets see how smooth that catheter goes in when nurse nancy has only done 2,

see this is the train of thought that is going to regulate our field N then nit wits who have already ruined the trade will now have to move on to cut grass!! If you think it wont happen....look at New Jersey & the other new england states!!!!

competition is welcomed & when I quit??? someone else will replace me..BUT, it will take them a long time sprout to be respected/recommended & gain the good reutation that I have..........

See the one thing you have wrong in your post is "Not everyone knows their own boundaries" especially newbees, they will take chances under supervision let alone put them out on their own.........there is a reason for the 10yr mark & it is through the Dept of Labor`s statistical data where this number comes from.......read it some time!!! BTW, 1 life lost is too many, so what more does one need to base their conclusion on? you might want to consider reading the death/injury stats in the tcia Mag.




LXT..............


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## swyman (Nov 6, 2010)

How could I have been so silly to even think I could start a tree service with my lack of qualifications! I now know you have to be a MENSA member to join the ranks of you folks, I only carried a 3.5 in college. I think I will try something easier like building rockets or something?????


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 6, 2010)

swyman said:


> How could I have been so silly to even think I could start a tree service with my lack of qualifications! I now know you have to be a MENSA member to join the ranks of you folks, I only carried a 3.5 in college. I think I will try something easier like building rockets or something?????



Smartest thing u have said on this thread,much safer, rep coming your way


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## jrr344 (Nov 6, 2010)

Well I think the best way to start out at this business is to get an application for MCDONALDS.


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## lxt (Nov 6, 2010)

swyman said:


> How could I have been so silly to even think I could start a tree service with my lack of qualifications!




Ill just wait for you to answer your own question.... I think tommorrow im gonna start a mobile mamogram service, Ill tell all the ladies: " I have no qualifications or Certifications" I just think Ill like the work!!

Boy, Ill bet the ladies come from all around for my diagnosis, LMFAO!!! Yeah how could you think you could start a tree service? dumb Jackwagon!



LXT...............


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## lxt (Nov 6, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> Well I think the best way to start out at this business is to get an application for MCDONALDS.



For you thats setting a high standard, we all were thinking the ideal job for you would be scrubbing toilets at the local truck stop.........."boy you got a pretty mouth!" they`ll like you at the flyin J or 76. now theres something you are qualified for!




LXT.................


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 6, 2010)

swyman said:


> How could I have been so silly to even think I could start a tree service with my lack of qualifications! I now know you have to be a MENSA member to join the ranks of you folks, I only carried a 3.5 in college. I think I will try something easier like building rockets or something?????



Start your tree service and #### all the naysayers , and you wanna why I say that because all these jackwagons started somewhere and all were new sometime , so why not , and I can say that because nothing that you will ever accomplish affects me at all we my as well be on separate planets , just be careful that you don't fall outta a tree and splat in someones back yard or accidentally cut your throat with a saw or feed yourself in the chipper , maybe you think that I am being a jerk for saying that but it happens for real its a nasty gig to be in and for someone with little or no experience it could get down right bloody ... So Be Safe and good luck ...GET GOOD LIFE INSURANCE your worth more dead than alive anymore ..


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 6, 2010)

You actually mean death insurance.

I did an estimate for an insurance salesman here in town yesterday. He wants to sell me "life" insurance.

It's funny because my idea of life insurance is safe equipment and practices.


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## swyman (Nov 7, 2010)

You guys are the most ridiculous group of people I have ever chatted with and most of you dumb bastards will take that as a compliment.


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## TrillPhil (Nov 7, 2010)

swyman said:


> You guys are the most ridiculous group of people I have ever chatted with and most of you dumb bastards will take that as a compliment.



Thank you, thank you very much!


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 7, 2010)

swyman said:


> You guys are the most ridiculous group of people I have ever chatted with and most of you dumb bastards will take that as a compliment.



So why are you here? Are you a trouble making troll or just an idiot?
Jeff


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## newsawtooth (Nov 8, 2010)

swyman said:


> You guys are the most ridiculous group of people I have ever chatted with and most of you dumb bastards will take that as a compliment.



It hasn't even gotten weird yet. You haven't met The Dan, Yoda Jeffers is being civil, and most of us still have pants on.


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## DangerTree (Nov 8, 2010)

This tree was 150' tall and 12' at the butt if you fu.. up on one of these on some guys house you are officially out of bidness! It only takes one bad choice to wreck your day.


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 8, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> It hasn't even gotten weird yet. You haven't met The Dan, Yoda Jeffers is being civil, and most of us still have pants on.



LOL! Yeah, it's like, wait, don't go yet....there's more.


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## ThePruner (Nov 8, 2010)

DangerTree said:


> This tree was 150' tall and 12' at the butt if you fu.. up on one of these on some guys house you are officially out of bidness! It only takes one bad choice to wreck your day.



Not only wreck your day, but potentially your whole year.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 8, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> LOL! Yeah, it's like, wait, don't go yet....there's more.



Yeah, my mellow mood will end soon, probably. haha.
Jeff


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## Cutler tree (Nov 8, 2010)

Do any of you big dog tree guys get refered work by smaller companies? I know I will refer and if I got a call to do that ceder I'd say thanks for the call I know someone who is better qualified to handle this tree pass on their number and let them handle it. So if you roll up on a tree that's out of your leauge be honest with the homeowners and walk away. BTW 1st year in the biz, walked away from 3. I did some that others walked away from.


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## Blakesmaster (Nov 8, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> Do any of you big dog tree guys get refered work by smaller companies? I know I will refer and if I got a call to do that ceder I'd say thanks for the call I know someone who is better qualified to handle this tree pass on their number and let them handle it. So if you roll up on a tree that's out of your leauge be honest with the homeowners and walk away. BTW 1st year in the biz, walked away from 3. I did some that others walked away from.



Yeah, I get some referrals but I wouldn't consider myself a big dog by any means, I'm just a bit too big headed to walk away from stuff others quickly run from. There's always a way to get the job done. Take the time to think it over, explore your options and put you bid in the sky. Figuring out how to do something that others can't is the BEST exposure your company can get.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 8, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> Do any of you big dog tree guys get refered work by smaller companies? I know I will refer and if I got a call to do that ceder I'd say thanks for the call I know someone who is better qualified to handle this tree pass on their number and let them handle it. So if you roll up on a tree that's out of your leauge be honest with the homeowners and walk away. BTW 1st year in the biz, walked away from 3. I did some that others walked away from.



We don't do residential, but I often get asked for an estimate. Wether by phone, or homeowner's, or our trucks on the road. Also a cool web-site. I will always try to give them one and when they get my price they will shop. So, I know they will shop and I give them a couple of number's from my guys. I refer most of res to our guys and they and the HO make out. We do get referral's from landscape companies. Some will mark up our price and some won't.
Jeff


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## M.D. Vaden (Nov 8, 2010)

TimberJack_7 said:


> Oh boy....



+1

Looking forward to the day that virtually every tree worker gets into the profession because they crave to master the art and science, rather than a means to acquire wood and groceries.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 8, 2010)

M.D. Vaden said:


> +1
> 
> Looking forward to the day that virtually every tree worker gets into the profession because they crave to master the art and science, rather than a means to acquire wood and groceries.



You need to post more, Old Man! I know it is hard to do in a rocking chair, Hahahaha! I am just messing with ya!
Jeff


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## M.D. Vaden (Nov 9, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You need to post more, Old Man! I know it is hard to do in a rocking chair, Hahahaha! I am just messing with ya!
> Jeff



Well ... I am wearing a knee brace lately. It clicks going upstairs now.

Maybe my frame will become a percussion instrument in the next 10 years.

*: - )*


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## DangerTree (Nov 9, 2010)

Cutler tree said:


> Do any of you big dog tree guys get refered work by smaller companies? I know I will refer and if I got a call to do that ceder I'd say thanks for the call I know someone who is better qualified to handle this tree pass on their number and let them handle it. So if you roll up on a tree that's out of your leauge be honest with the homeowners and walk away. BTW 1st year in the biz, walked away from 3. I did some that others walked away from.


And unlike Jeff and Blake I am the smaller company. I get referrals from Large line contractors that are too busy to tackle some of the larger hard to get at trees. Or they just can'y be bothered even with the small ones. Also I get lots of work from construction contractors. There is also the return clients that have used us in the past and like our professional attitude and cleanliness. I seldom walk away from a job I simply bid way high and sometimes you get em' anyway. I am a fully armed contract killer that supplements with pruning fruit trees and ornamentals to give the body a break and fill dead space. I do like pruning and repair work a lot but it's not my bread and butter. If the bigger fish don't feed in my pond once in a while they will get hungry. The larger companies tend to have more time constraints because they need to fulfill contracts. I am only constrained by my fitness and the climate.
When you first start out you will tend to sell yourself short. When bidding here is what you need. Travel time to and from, rigging time, dismantle time/ felling, material handling including disposal cost and clean-up. First think hourly then day rate. If a job is going to eat most of the day then day rate it. Don't under bid!! you kill your own market and everyone else's. Enjoy your work and work safe.


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## defensiblespace (Nov 9, 2010)

As the saying goes, "you've got a lot to learn.". There are start up companies like this every year. Most of em don't make it. And no offense to you personally, but these companies are a pain in my ***. They underbid to get work and then hack their way through it. Taking classes will help, but nothing beets on the job training, for the health of the trees and your own safety. If you start a biz, don't be cheap. Hire someone with experience and credentials and have them guide you through the experience. Most importantly, be honest with your customers and don't bid on jobs that are out of your league. Have a go to sub contractor who can do those jobs for you. Also, get all your appropriate licensing and insurance required for your area or you could find yourself in a lot of trouble real fast.


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## DangerTree (Nov 10, 2010)

Hey our pics are similar! But my wood is bigger than yours!http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/buttkick.gif


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## FanOFatherNash (Dec 12, 2010)

*Harsh?*

Are you saying because he isn't in the business , he shouldn't get in the business? Being a good business owner and being a good tree climber are two separate things, A good business owner would so round himself with people that are better then him. Dont we all have to start somewhere?


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## tree md (Dec 12, 2010)

There are hundreds of flash in the pan carpenters, welders, (insert whichever trade your jacklegged ass can't make it in here) treeman wannabe startups coming into the trade everyday. As has been mentioned, you will lowball and screw up every tree you can reach with you ladder, polesaw, bucket truck, give the trade a black eye and screw up the market in your area for the few months/year that you last until you can finagle someone else into hiring your jacklegged ass into whatever trade you are not making it in in the first place.

Let's see, I did a little gas and arc welding at votech in high school... I think I'll start a fabrication business... Yeah, that's the ticket.


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## swyman (Dec 12, 2010)

tree md said:


> There are hundreds of flash in the pan carpenters, welders, (insert whichever trade your jacklegged ass can't make it in here) treeman wannabe startups coming into the trade everyday. As has been mentioned, you will lowball and screw up every tree you can reach with you ladder, polesaw, bucket truck, give the trade a black eye and screw up the market in your area for the few months/year that you last until you can finagle someone else into hiring your jacklegged ass into whatever trade you are not making it in in the first place.
> 
> Let's see, I did a little gas and arc welding at votech in high school... I think I'll start a fabrication business... Yeah, that's the ticket.



I'd like to invite all you P'sOS over to my house for a no holds barred! I have never talked with such a bunch of horses rear ends and frankly the only one giving the trade a black eye are guys like you! I have talked with a few business in the area and they are very nice but I guess I must live in a better part of the country than you and they are not miserable pricks. If I were in your area I would take trees down for free, maybe start a tree cutting charity service. Just remember...MEAN PEOPLE SUCK...... ya, I'm talking to YOU rooster fish!


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## tree md (Dec 12, 2010)

swyman said:


> I'd like to invite all you P'sOS over to my house for a no holds barred! I have never talked with such a bunch of horses rear ends and frankly the only one giving the trade a black eye are guys like you! I have talked with a few business in the area and they are very nice but I guess I must live in a better part of the country than you and they are not miserable pricks. If I were in your area I would take trees down for free, maybe start a tree cutting charity service. Just remember...MEAN PEOPLE SUCK...... ya, I'm talking to YOU rooster fish!



Be careful what you wish for sonny boy. Most of us have spent a lifetime of swinging chunks of tree, not holed up in a shop.

I mean, what do you think? Am I ready to go into the welding business? I mean, I did a little gas welding in votech at school... Sounds a little idiotic doesn't it???

Get real.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 12, 2010)

swyman said:


> *I'd like to invite all you P'sOS over to my house for a no holds barred! *I have never talked with such a bunch of horses rear ends and frankly the only one giving the trade a black eye are guys like you! I have talked with a few business in the area and they are very nice but I guess I must live in a better part of the country than you and they are not miserable pricks. *If I were in your area I would take trees down for free*, maybe start a tree cutting charity service. Just remember...MEAN PEOPLE SUCK...... ya, I'm talking to YOU rooster fish!


What's your address.........


we already have people that take them down for free, we call them firewood jockeys.....


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## swyman (Dec 12, 2010)

tree md said:


> Be careful what you wish for sonny boy. Most of us have spent a lifetime of swinging chunks of tree, not holed up in a shop.
> 
> I mean, what do you think? Am I ready to go into the welding business? I mean, I did a little gas welding in votech at school... Sounds a little idiotic doesn't it???
> 
> Get real.



I'm done with this thread for good, quit replying, is going nowhere


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## tree md (Dec 12, 2010)

And FWIW I carried a 3.78 through college... Tested out with a 146 on my IQ test... Imagine that.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 12, 2010)

swyman said:


> I'd like to invite all you P'sOS over to my house for a no holds barred! I have never talked with such a bunch of horses rear ends and frankly the only one giving the trade a black eye are guys like you! I have talked with a few business in the area and they are very nice but I guess I must live in a better part of the country than you and they are not miserable pricks. If I were in your area I would take trees down for free, maybe start a tree cutting charity service. Just remember...MEAN PEOPLE SUCK...... ya, I'm talking to YOU rooster fish!



Ha! What a Goob!
Jeff


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## treeslayer (Dec 13, 2010)

swyman said:


> I'm done with this thread for good, quit replying, is going nowhere



GOOD. You started this idiotic thread, so good riddance.

or you're a troll. either way, beat it.

:notrolls2:


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## pdqdl (Dec 13, 2010)

ole swyman really wasn't so bad, he just didn't understand. He posted a legitimate question; he just wasn't ready for the reality of everybody's answers.

I suspect that he wasn't seeking opinions so much as he was looking for confirmation of his plan.


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## treeslayer (Dec 14, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> ole swyman really wasn't so bad, he just didn't understand. He posted a legitimate question; he just wasn't ready for the reality of everybody's answers.
> 
> I suspect that he wasn't seeking opinions so much as he was looking for confirmation of his plan.



True that, yo.


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## swyman (Dec 14, 2010)

I apologize for getting po'ed and talking crap. I still don't know what I'm going to do and you guys have done nothing but push me closer to pulling the trigger just to prove I can do it, just hard to part with the money for equipment and go into the unknown (as far as work availability). This is a great country we live in and everyone is entitled for their opinion even if it is not what I wanted to hear! Maybe I won't make it but I if you don't try, you'll never know and always think what if. For me, I just want to do something I like and be able to make a living at it. I have a couple young boy's and I hope to give them options. Hell by the time they graduate you'll probably need an associates degree to flip burgers. So with that, I am still open to all info, good or bad and will read and learn instead of being an a-hole. Still offering for anyone to come over but how about just sitting in the shop and pounding some beers and talking trees?


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

swyman said:


> I apologize for getting po'ed and talking crap. I still don't know what I'm going to do and you guys have done nothing but push me closer to pulling the trigger just to prove I can do it, just hard to part with the money for equipment and go into the unknown (as far as work availability). This is a great country we live in and everyone is entitled for their opinion even if it is not what I wanted to hear! Maybe I won't make it but I if you don't try, you'll never know and always think what if. For me, I just want to do something I like and be able to make a living at it. I have a couple young boy's and I hope to give them options. Hell by the time they graduate you'll probably need an associates degree to flip burgers. So with that, I am still open to all info, good or bad and will read and learn instead of being an a-hole. Still offering for anyone to come over but how about just sitting in the shop and pounding some beers and talking trees?



FINE ... now your talking I will come and drink your beer and smoke your weed .. Wait did you offer weed ????


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 14, 2010)

Honestly swyman, I think you should go with what you know. You already have a fab shop startup going, why not sink your time and resources into that instead of venturing into an arena where you have absolutely no experience? Seems that would be the smarter choice, no? I still think you could take some of the others advice from this thread about offering your equipment and services to tree company's. This would benefit you in a lot of ways. One, you'd see what pros really get into and, if you're smart, would realize how over your head starting a tree service would be with your level of expertise. Two, you'd probably easily be able to work out a deal to keep a lot of the wood the tree services want to get rid of. ####, just today I gave to huge loads of primo oak away. And most importantly...NETWORKING! Tree services always need good welders and fab men. You can sell those services to them too.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

swyman said:


> I apologize for getting po'ed and talking crap. I still don't know what I'm going to do and you guys have done nothing but push me closer to pulling the trigger just to prove I can do it, just hard to part with the money for equipment and go into the unknown (as far as work availability). This is a great country we live in and everyone is entitled for their opinion even if it is not what I wanted to hear! Maybe I won't make it but I if you don't try, you'll never know and always think what if. For me, I just want to do something I like and be able to make a living at it. I have a couple young boy's and I hope to give them options. Hell by the time they graduate you'll probably need an associates degree to flip burgers. So with that, I am still open to all info, good or bad and will read and learn instead of being an a-hole. Still offering for anyone to come over but how about just sitting in the shop and pounding some beers and talking trees?



Welcome back. 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> Honestly swyman, I think you should go with what you know. You already have a fab shop startup going, why not sink your time and resources into that instead of venturing into an arena where you have absolutely no experience? Seems that would be the smarter choice, no? I still think you could take some of the others advice from this thread about offering your equipment and services to tree company's. This would benefit you in a lot of ways. One, you'd see what pros really get into and, if you're smart, would realize how over your head starting a tree service would be with your level of expertise. Two, you'd probably easily be able to work out a deal to keep a lot of the wood the tree services want to get rid of. ####, just today I gave to huge loads of primo oak away. And most importantly...NETWORKING! Tree services always need good welders and fab men. You can sell those services to them too.



And a guy with a fab shop. Blakes is right.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 14, 2010)

I think its great that your starting a new business venture , just do me a solid and stay away from 08029.. That is my stomping ground ...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I think its great that your starting a new business venture , just do me a solid and stay away from 08029.. That is my stomping ground ...



Now he knows, oh oh!
Jeff 
Dang it is getting cool out. I should turn off my air conditioner!


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## swyman (Dec 14, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> FINE ... now your talking I will come and drink your beer and smoke your weed .. Wait did you offer weed ????



Weed days are long gone, I just got a temp job with MDOT and they have random tests but I still have some good memories!


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

swyman said:


> Weed days are long gone, I just got a temp job with MDOT and they have random tests but I still have some good memories!



" Flash-Back's" are free!
Jeff 
I think the warm weather is getting to me.


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## swyman (Dec 14, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> Honestly swyman, I think you should go with what you know. You already have a fab shop startup going, why not sink your time and resources into that instead of venturing into an arena where you have absolutely no experience? Seems that would be the smarter choice, no? I still think you could take some of the others advice from this thread about offering your equipment and services to tree company's. This would benefit you in a lot of ways. One, you'd see what pros really get into and, if you're smart, would realize how over your head starting a tree service would be with your level of expertise. Two, you'd probably easily be able to work out a deal to keep a lot of the wood the tree services want to get rid of. ####, just today I gave to huge loads of primo oak away. And most importantly...NETWORKING! Tree services always need good welders and fab men. You can sell those services to them too.



There are a couple tree services in the area that I wanted to go talk to that I haven't yet and one of them was buring all the big rounds that I would love to have. They are a fairly new company and it should be easier for me to pick those big rounds up than him handling them a couple times (although he has a prentice loader). I really want to stay busy and I think I will have to much idle time in the shop but I gues I will see what advertising will do? My friend has 25 years experience in owning and running a tree service and calls me everyday. He would be there every step of the way to guide me and give direction. He was very successful, atleast it supported his cocain and heroin addiction and many many strippers, said he'd go everyday. Finally got the best of him and was put in a nut house for a few years, he was messed up pretty bad. Now back living at home on permanant disability and back in circulation but can't really offer any physical help but all the advice of a true veteran. He drives around and looks for trees that need attention then tells me. Just can't take the arborist out of him! I guess I should be patient on my shop and see what the future brings.


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## tree md (Dec 14, 2010)

You sound like a pretty good dude swyman. You are catching the brunt of what a lot of career treemen would like to tell all the jacklegs (sorry don't know any other way to put it) who enter the industry everyday. Some make it, most don't. It is a little insulting to think you can just jump into the biz with a chainsaw and a little equipment and call yourself an arborist with no apprenticeship or paying your dues like most accomplished treemen have...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

tree md said:


> You sound like a pretty good dude swyman. You are catching the brunt of what a lot of career treemen would like to tell all the jacklegs (sorry don't know any other way to put it) who enter the industry everyday. Some make it, most don't. It is a little insulting to think you can just jump into the biz with a chainsaw and a little equipment and call yourself an arborist with no apprenticeship or paying your dues like most accomplished treemen have...



I agree, You bring your 'man-suit' and hang. 
I bet Slayer is saying "WTF".
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Dec 14, 2010)

I would like to think that with just a few thoughtful words, I may have turned this thread around. Perhaps some of you other guys could learn to see an opportunity for gaining another contributing member when a newbie comes around, instead of just another newbie looking to become the competition.

swyman: Please remember that this is a pretty crusty forum, but most of the comments that I read seemed to be good advice beneath their somewhat abusive tone. The guys who were attempting to chase you away from your tree trimming plans were probably looking out for your best interests in the long run. When you get around to asking specific "how to" questions, the best forum to get a polite answer is in "arborist 101"


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I would like to think that with just a few thoughtful words, I may have turned this thread around. Perhaps some of you other guys could learn to see an opportunity for gaining another contributing member when a newbie comes around, instead of just another newbie looking to become the competition.
> 
> swyman: Please remember that this is a pretty crusty forum, but most of the comments that I read seemed to be good advice beneath their somewhat abusive tone. The guys who were attempting to chase you away from your tree trimming plans were probably looking out for your best interests in the long run. When you get around to asking specific "how to" questions, the best forum to get a polite answer is in "arborist 101"



Yup, I may be a little abusive, but I am really a sweet guy!!!
Jeff


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## treeslayer (Dec 15, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I would like to think that with just a few thoughtful words, I may have turned this thread around. Perhaps some of you other guys could learn to see an opportunity for gaining another contributing member when a newbie comes around, instead of just another newbie looking to become the competition.
> 
> swyman: Please remember that this is a pretty crusty forum, but most of the comments that I read seemed to be good advice beneath their somewhat abusive tone. The guys who were attempting to chase you away from your tree trimming plans were probably looking out for your best interests in the long run. When you get around to asking specific "how to" questions, the best forum to get a polite answer is in "arborist 101"



at least he's got a trade under his belt, those snot nosed kids are the worst.
And I appreciate his candor, and honest answer. 

he passed that test.

Get some trees, I'll climb for you. and run my mouth all day, :chatter: 
if you could remember 25% of what I dissimenate you would learn something.

I've spent a lot of time drinking beer in fab shops, my guy here builds airplanes in his.


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## jrr344 (Dec 15, 2010)

This is a pretty good thread, I think I will also get into the business.


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## treeslayer (Dec 15, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> This is a pretty good thread, I think I will also get into the business.



I'll work in Tennessee.


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## jrr344 (Dec 15, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> I'll work in Tennessee.



Hired, is minimum wage too much?


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## treeslayer (Dec 15, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> Hired, is minimum wage too much?



yep.


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## jrr344 (Dec 15, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> yep.



That was easy, so would you work for nothing and let my wife yell at you from about 5-7 pm and on most weekends so I can work in my shop and use my saws, just an added perk.opcorn:


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## treeslayer (Dec 15, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> That was easy, so would you work for nothing and let my wife yell at you from about 5-7 pm and on most weekends so I can work in my shop and use my saws, just an added perk.opcorn:



heck, I can do that here, especially the yelling part.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## jrr344 (Dec 15, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> heck, I can do that here, especially the yelling part.:hmm3grin2orange:



Tennesse is a long drive.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeslayer (Dec 15, 2010)

but its in the right direction. Warm, and near VA.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## the Aerialist (Dec 16, 2010)

*Old Dogs can learn New Tricks*

swyman, a few years ago I decided to become a tree climber for fun and profit. After a disastrous start on my own, I got a job with a local tree service as a ground man. I never hid my ambitions to climb and was fortunate to be picked as rope man for a highly skilled and experienced climber.

After a year and a half the climber and myself started taking our own work, and in another six months the owner of the established tree service dropped dead (he was 75) and we were set free.

The climber and I have amicably parted business ways, and I am now the sole owner, and chief climber, for my own very successful tree service business. I was lucky, I found an excellent Mentor to teach me the business of climbing trees.

There's far more to learn than just the mechanics of safely climbing trees, and that knowledge is even harder to come by. Plan to study hard on the arboriculture of living trees, as well as prudent handling of dead ones.


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## treeslayer (Dec 16, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> swyman, a few years ago I decided to become a tree climber for fun and profit. After a disastrous start on my own, I got a job with a local tree service as a ground man. I never hid my ambitions to climb and was fortunate to be picked as rope man for a highly skilled and experienced climber.
> 
> After a year and a half the climber and myself started taking our own work, and in another six months the owner of the established tree service dropped dead (he was 75) and we were set free.
> 
> ...


good reply, congrats on the good business approach, but I have to throw this out.
Got a question for you aerial arborist. are you a *certified *arborist? if not, why are you claiming to be one? nothing wrong with just being a climber. calling oneself an arborist on here is sketchy though. IMO, and from a legal standpoint, you are a certified arborist, or a treeclimber. semantics, for sure. food for thought.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm not claiming to be a certified arborist, arborist is not even in my computer's dictionary.

I claim to be a tree surgeon, mostly amputations.


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## treeslayer (Dec 16, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> I'm not claiming to be a certified arborist, arborist is not even in my computer's dictionary.
> 
> I claim to be a tree surgeon, mostly amputations.




I hear ya.....

I'm not certified, either, though certainly certifiable.......:hmm3grin2orange:

just wanted to point that out. plus I like stirring it up.
parachute rigger, huh? cool....


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> I'm not claiming to be a certified arborist, arborist is not even in my computer's dictionary.
> 
> I claim to be a tree surgeon, mostly amputations.



You make no sense! Are you a joker? How did you find the word 'arborist' without looking on your computer dictionary? 
BTW, I am an arborist.
Jeff


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## tree md (Dec 16, 2010)

From Wikipedia:

_An arborist, or (less commonly) arboriculturalist, is a professional in the practice of arboriculture, which is the cultivation, management, and study of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants._

If you fit in that description than you are an arborist whether you are cerified or not. I had planned to get my certification a couple of years back but have real problems with some of the ISA's newer policies and requirements. I do however prune according to their guidelines. What I don't need is to be told how to be ethical. I find that insulting.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 17, 2010)

I get a kick out of that as-well. There are several company's here that claim Arborist, one even has it in their name, A-1 Arborist, but they top trees!


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*Certified Arborists*

Around here most of the certified arborists work for the power companies. They hack "L" shaped sections out of the parts of the tree that are near the wires.


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## tree md (Dec 17, 2010)

Around here most certified arborists never get off the ground... Had one call last month looking for a job. Said he was a certified arborist but was trying to learn how to climb...


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*Paper training for new Arborists*



tree md said:


> Around here most certified arborists never get off the ground... Had one call last month looking for a job. Said he was a certified arborist but was trying to learn how to climb...



Well yes, there are plenty of paper trained arborists who would piddle all over themselves if they actually had to climb a tree. The closest most of them get is in the bucket of a power company truck.

Not that I am denigrating the profession of "Arborist", but if you can't climb a tree you don't deserve to call yourself one.

Arborist at work: (I believe it's Jeff)


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> I... parachute rigger, huh? cool....



Actually I'm a Master Parachute Rigger, FAA certified, and a Commercial Pilot as well. Rigging is one of the most interesting aspects of tree work, it's a thinking man's game. Screw up there and you are sure to have a bad day.


----------



## tree md (Dec 17, 2010)

You should do your homework. Jeff climbed for many years before he went into managment... Since the early 70's I believe...


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

tree md said:


> ... Jeff climbed for many years before he went into managment... I believe...



Well what the hell is he doing criticizing a climber if he is not a climber himself?


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*This is me in my office*


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## treeslayer (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Well what the hell is he doing criticizing a climber if he is not a climber himself?



stop showing your ass, he's paid his dues, and he knows his ####. 

do a search on him and read his posts, go to urban care's website, but watch your mouth talking blindly, you sound like one of them teenage wannabe's.

do your research before you slam an oldtimer on here, you ain't there yet.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Well yes, there are plenty of paper trained arborists who would piddle all over themselves if they actually had to climb a tree. The closest most of them get is in the bucket of a power company truck.
> 
> Not that I am denigrating the profession of "Arborist", but if you can't climb a tree you don't deserve to call yourself one.
> 
> Arborist at work: (I believe it's Jeff)



You believe wrong. I climbed for 28 years before I became an arborist. 
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*Teenage Wannabe? I'm 63 and still climbing ...*



treeslayer said:


> stop showing your ass, he's paid his dues, and he knows his ####.
> 
> do a search on him and read his posts, go to urban care's website, but watch your mouth talking blindly, you sound like one of them teenage wannabe's.
> 
> do your research before you slam an oldtimer on here, you ain't there yet.:hmm3grin2orange:



You walk in a bar you've never been in before and before you even get a drink one of the regulars slaps you in the face. What would you do?

I'm not talking blindly, I've been attacked by a guy I don't know and for no reason. If there's an @ss here it isn't me. If that's how the "regulars" are on this forum then I'm in the wrong place. 

And I'll ask again, why the hell is someone who's not a climber criticizing someone who is? He's the one that should watch his mouth.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> You walk in a bar you've never been in before and before you even get a drink one of the regulars slaps you in the face. What would you do?
> 
> I'm not talking blindly, I've been attacked by a guy I don't know and for no reason. If there's an @ss here it isn't me. If that's how the "regulars" are on this forum then I'm in the wrong place.
> 
> And I'll ask again, why the hell is someone who's not a climber criticizing someone who is? He's the one that should watch his mouth.



If I attacked you, I did not realize it. I asked a question. Did not realize you had such thin skin. If you feel offended, sorry. I will remember to be nice. Go back and read where I attacked you. I could not find it.
Jeff


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## lxt (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> You walk in a bar you've never been in before and before you even get a drink one of the regulars slaps you in the face. What would you do?
> 
> I'm not talking blindly, I've been attacked by a guy I don't know and for no reason. If there's an @ss here it isn't me. If that's how the "regulars" are on this forum then I'm in the wrong place.
> 
> And I'll ask again, why the hell is someone who's not a climber criticizing someone who is? He's the one that should watch his mouth.





You are talking about someone "not being a climber" I see in your pic above a set of spikes on as you`re descending......its clear from the pic that you didnt remove the tree....so are we a spike trimmer?


LXT.............


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You believe wrong. I climbed for 28 years before I became an arborist.
> Jeff



Well Jeff, maybe we just got off on the wrong foot here, we are both "oldtimers" and we should both be acting our age. I didn't join this forum to play children's schoolyard games, but I don't like schoolyard bullies of any age.

I've taken you off of ignore at another members behest, we'll see how that works. Now is your time to say something nice to me and we can be friends


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*I've been invited to a gang bang it seems ...*



lxt said:


> You are talking about someone "not being a climber" I see in your pic above a set of spikes on as you`re descending......its clear from the pic that you didnt remove the tree....so are we a spike trimmer?



Well I see it's dog pile time to defend your own. As it happens that tree was one of "Three Big Oaks" that were indeed turned into firewood due to damage that had that compromised their structural integrity.

Here is me at the base of that one:






And here is the series of shots on that day:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Aerial.Arborist.Service/ThreeBigOaks#

This is a video of care for a giant Red Oak tree, it may be instructional for you to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnAWiu3-FWw

Would you care to offer an apology now?


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*I just don't think I belong here ...*

It occurs to me that this form is not much more than a tight click of uptight neurotic, insecure tree workers, that is if any of you do actually work in trees, as opposed to just throwing brickbats at any new arrivals.

If there is anyone who is interested in sharing knowledge as opposed to defending turf I sure hope you show up soon or I'm outa here. I know that one or two bad apples are to be found in any crowd, but it seems like a lynch mob mentality is pervasive here.

I'm going to fold my tent for today as I won't bother to defend myself at every post. You guys are a sweet group, enjoy yourselves...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> It occurs to me that this form is not much more than a tight click of uptight neurotic, insecure tree workers, that is if any of you do actually work in trees, as opposed to just throwing brickbats at any new arrivals.
> 
> If there is anyone who is interested in sharing knowledge as opposed to defending turf I sure hope you show up soon or I'm outa here. I know that one or two bad apples are to be found in any crowd, but it seems like a lynch mob mentality is pervasive here.
> 
> I'm going to fold my tent for today as I won't bother to defend myself at every post. You guys are a sweet group, enjoy yourselves...



Hey, why don't you hang. You ain't the first guy to come on here and start to toot his horn and post a vid saying we could learn from you. Maybe we can, but most of us tree guys have tough skin and alot of good info comes out of being straight up and without worrying about someone's feeling's. Like you said, we got off on the wrong foot. 
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> It occurs to me that this form is not much more than a tight click of uptight neurotic, insecure tree workers, that is if any of you do actually work in trees, as opposed to just throwing brickbats at any new arrivals.
> 
> If there is anyone who is interested in sharing knowledge as opposed to defending turf I sure hope you show up soon or I'm outa here. I know that one or two bad apples are to be found in any crowd, but it seems like a lynch mob mentality is pervasive here.
> 
> I'm going to fold my tent for today as I won't bother to defend myself at every post. You guys are a sweet group, enjoy yourselves...



I haven't been following this thread very closely, but from what I've gathered, I think it would be nice to see you grow some skin and hang! 

Hell.. we didn't even get a chance to disagree yet!


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## HLC03 (Dec 17, 2010)

hate to be a threadjacker but:

I live in South Eastern Pennsylvania. I was wondering what your opinions are on what a climber should be paid. Take into account that this would be a question from a guy who would eventually like to start a small business, just like the OP. I wanted to know what regular climbers, ground-dudes, and climbing foreman (you know your main climber) would get hourly in the eastern part of the country? Maybe you could provide wages for hourly to start, so on and so fourth.

Thanks guys,
Adam


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## tree md (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


>



And... Who gives a ####... We all do the same dude. All I'm saying is do some homework chompy...


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## tree md (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> You walk in a bar you've never been in before and before you even get a drink one of the regulars slaps you in the face. What would you do?
> 
> I'm not talking blindly, I've been attacked by a guy I don't know and for no reason. If there's an @ss here it isn't me. If that's how the "regulars" are on this forum then I'm in the wrong place.
> 
> And I'll ask again, why the hell is someone who's not a climber criticizing someone who is? He's the one that should watch his mouth.



Maybe you're in the wrong place ####head. You have yet to enlighten me with anything except that you fell into a tree service after a couple of years of work...

And if you feel you've been attacked, grow some bark, you are not sounding like a 63 year old man, you sound like some of the 20 something newbie prom queens around here.

Respect is earned.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

:


HLC03 said:


> hate to be a threadjacker but:
> 
> I live in South Eastern Pennsylvania. I was wondering what your opinions are on what a climber should be paid. Take into account that this would be a question from a guy who would eventually like to start a small business, just like the OP. I wanted to know what regular climbers, ground-dudes, and climbing foreman (you know your main climber) would get hourly in the eastern part of the country? Maybe you could provide wages for hourly to start, so on and so fourth.
> 
> ...



I am biting my tongue!!! 
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 17, 2010)

*Ok Jeff, now that we're "friends" ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> Hey, why don't you hang. You ain't the first guy to come on here and start to toot his horn and post a vid saying we could learn from you. Maybe we can, but most of us tree guys have tough skin and alot of good info comes out of being straight up and without worrying about someone's feeling's. Like you said, we got off on the wrong foot.
> Jeff



I logged back in to answer your post Jeff.

I came back especially hard on you and that was out of line for a "newbee" I may have been climbing trees for 40+ years but I am new here and I should be more respectful (as should we all).

I'm logging off again after this but I hope you will review the posts I have made. Nowhere have I said anyone here could learn from me, I had hoped to learn things from you all. I'm especially interested in SRT and how I can add it to my bag of tricks for just one thing.

To all others here. Please take the time to read my posts, and the posts of all those who have responded to me and try to figure out where I am coming from. I will take up the gauntlet if I am slapped with one, but it's not why I came here. Decide if you want me to become a member of this forum or not. 

Next time I log in it will be without harboring any grudges against any of you. I will be respectful and polite to all who afford me the same. Lets act like the professionals we aspire to be. 

I learned this from Jeff


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## tree md (Dec 17, 2010)

Err... ummm... Didn't read all the way through and see we are all making nice nice now...

Anyway, Who knows, maybe you'll teach me something... 

What can I say, I'm still a 200T toting gun slinger at heart.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> I logged back in to answer your post Jeff.
> 
> I came back especially hard on you and that was out of line.
> Nowhere have I said anyone here could learn from me, I had hoped to learn things from you all. Decide if you want me to become a member of this forum or not. :



My skin is pretty thick, and those who test it mean well. We all do. Here is what I mean in a way. You deny saying we could learn from you. OK, the phrase was, " a red oak removal vid that you said could be "instructional". I don't know how to put it here, but it is Post #130 near the bottom. 
I think you should stay, but that's up to you.
Jeff


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

tree md said:


> Err... ummm... Didn't read all the way through and see we are all making nice nice now...
> 
> Anyway, Who knows, maybe you'll teach me something...
> 
> What can I say, I'm still a 200T toting gun slinger at heart.



Ha ha ha!! You the man!!! You just demonstrated the kindnest in a 'man-suit'!
Jeff


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## swyman (Dec 17, 2010)

Doing some more research and asking more questions that you guys have brought to my attention.. I asked my mentor if he ever used a climber as all of you have informed me about. This is one thing he has never mentioned during any of our conversations and the answer was yes. There is a fellow in Toledo that he would call when he needed a climber and would use him on a regular basis. SO in asking more questions and research I found out that a freind of mines brother is a climber and does a little tree work and has been doing it for 15 years (just moved here from Florida) so I will be paying him a visit and see if I can do some jobs with him and see if he can help me. Only problem is he is a major pothead and only wants to do enough work to get by (has no family to support) so I hope he would be someone I can count on? I know this thread has been all over the place and I have been quick tempered but the more you guys have responded the more I am learning. I know the importance of pruning trees from growing up on my grandpa's farm. We had 50 acres of apple trees and went to many classes on proper tree care at Michigan State Universtity and no that does NOT qualify me to try to trim trees which is why I would like taking horticulture classes. Maybe I could also be a ground man part time for a local established tree service to give me some more experience. I have also found a partner to which I can fully trust that was layed off last summer and worked for a climber. I am still a little spearm swimming around but I believe I will evetually find an egg and start to grow. This has been a very helpful thread to me. I found a local arborist supply store today that I never knew was there and found all kinds of cool stuff! I think I am going to get some gear and go back to grandma's woods and just climb trees. Anyone live around Toledo and want to climb some trees? Ariel Arborist, I feel your pain but these guys are not that bad, I was pissed to but they are right, respect must be earned. They told me everything I didn't want to hear and it pissed me off but after reading back through, they all have their points. I guess it's better to be brutally honest than tell some newbie that starting a tree service is so easy a caveman could do it! I have a lot to learn and am looking forward to the challenges! Still open for sharing some coldies (Miller Lite, rifled barrells)


----------



## tree md (Dec 17, 2010)

Good post. FWIW, everyone told me I would not make it in the beginning either. Watch who you hang with... Not saying you can't learn from the druggie that has been there but watch them. Choose your mentors wisely. If you've got money, time and desire you can accomplish a lot. Just remember there is no such thing as a free lunch... If your in it for quick money that is exactly what you'll get... Quick money and maybe run out of town on a rail. Learn the right way and always standy by you job and your word. 

Wrots of wruck wrelroy...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2010)

swyman said:


> Doing some more research and asking more questions that you guys have brought to my attention.. I asked my mentor if he ever used a climber as all of you have informed me about. This is one thing he has never mentioned during any of our conversations and the answer was yes. There is a fellow in Toledo that he would call when he needed a climber and would use him on a regular basis. SO in asking more questions and research I found out that a freind of mines brother is a climber and does a little tree work and has been doing it for 15 years (just moved here from Florida) so I will be paying him a visit and see if I can do some jobs with him and see if he can help me. Only problem is he is a major pothead and only wants to do enough work to get by (has no family to support) so I hope he would be someone I can count on? I know this thread has been all over the place and I have been quick tempered but the more you guys have responded the more I am learning. I know the importance of pruning trees from growing up on my grandpa's farm. We had 50 acres of apple trees and went to many classes on proper tree care at Michigan State Universtity and no that does NOT qualify me to try to trim trees which is why I would like taking horticulture classes. Maybe I could also be a ground man part time for a local established tree service to give me some more experience. I have also found a partner to which I can fully trust that was layed off last summer and worked for a climber. I am still a little spearm swimming around but I believe I will evetually find an egg and start to grow. This has been a very helpful thread to me. I found a local arborist supply store today that I never knew was there and found all kinds of cool stuff! I think I am going to get some gear and go back to grandma's woods and just climb trees. Anyone live around Toledo and want to climb some trees? Ariel Arborist, I feel your pain but these guys are not that bad, I was pissed to but they are right, respect must be earned. They told me everything I didn't want to hear and it pissed me off but after reading back through, they all have their points. I guess it's better to be brutally honest than tell some newbie that starting a tree service is so easy a caveman could do it! I have a lot to learn and am looking forward to the challenges! Still open for sharing some coldies (Miller Lite, rifled barrells)



That was a good post. Good question. TV is in Ohio, and Dave probably could be. Thanks for saying we are not that bad. I mean, we are, but thanks. 
Jeff


----------



## treeslayer (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> You walk in a bar you've never been in before and before you even get a drink one of the regulars slaps you in the face. What would you do?
> 
> I'm not talking blindly, I've been attacked by a guy I don't know and for no reason. If there's an @ss here it isn't me. If that's how the "regulars" are on this forum then I'm in the wrong place.
> 
> And I'll ask again, why the hell is someone who's not a climber criticizing someone who is? He's the one that should watch his mouth.



When I walk in a bar for the first time, *I keep my mouth shut*, until I figure out who's who and what's what. 
you weren't blindly hit, you walked in asking for it. c'mon, bro you posted vid's of mediocre work, suggested we could learn from it, and a pic wearing spikes in a live tree. This is the forum for EXPERIENCED climbers, you will pay for every little offensive remark you make, whether you find it offensive or not. 
You seem to be a decent climber, don't run off, pay the dues and fit in. I had to do it. I got roasted years ago, too, but have learned a lot here and continue to grow. A bunch of us have been here since the beginning, almost 8 years for me. Hell I make a living travelling off this site. 12 states in 8 years, 19 hurricanes and numerous ice storms. I've met a LOT of climbers, many in bars after working, and for the most part decent guys. gotta watch the mouth though, we do a hard job and become a hard man.....

And stop picking on my beech jeffy, he's sensitive.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## pdqdl (Dec 18, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> ... I don't know how to put it here, but it is Post #130 near the bottom...



right mouse click on the "post number" in the upper right corner of each post. You should get a pop-up diaolog; choose "copy link".

Paste anywhere you want after that.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 18, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> right mouse click on the "post number" in the upper right corner of each post. You should get a pop-up diaolog; choose "copy link".
> 
> Paste anywhere you want after that.



Guess I should spend more time in the office! 
Jeff


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## HLC03 (Dec 18, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> :
> 
> I am biting my tongue!!!
> Jeff



Dude, no need to bite your tounge. I can take it. I was just wondering what some guys pay the professional climbers, ground guys, and rookie climbers (guys with under 5 years experience) on the East Coast. I really would appreciate the feedback. I am in a similar situation as the OP minus the bobcat. I have run a small lawn care/maintenance business and have been in the business for 7 years on my own with the help of 1 to 2 employees during the season. I have 10 years experience in lawn care total. I realize that means NOTHING in regards to TREE WORK. I have between 95-105 lawn maintenance customers. And every year I get asked about 50x a season if I do tree work by different customers and prospective customers. I am sure I am losing $ by not being able to provide tree services. This year I started doing some small, easy tree jobs. Hell my biggest saw is a 40cc echo. I'm sure I will hear it for that. My one employee took some classes on climbing and he was my climber this past season. But, this season I wanted to hire a REAL CLIMBER with experience to LEARN from, I don't have the luxury of being able to go work as an apprentice, because I have a biz to run. I've been reading up and buying gear. I REALLY respect your opinions. I'm sure you guys will probably flame the hell out of me, but I guess that comes with the territory. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or piss anyone off. I just want to learn.

Thanks for any info or opinions in advance guys I do appreciate it,
Adam


----------



## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*Fight Club! I'm in ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> My skin is pretty thick, and those who test it mean well. We all do. Here is what I mean in a way. You deny saying we could learn from you. OK, the phrase was, " a red oak removal vid that you said could be "instructional"... I think you should stay, but that's up to you.
> Jeff



The comment you quoted was my response to the poster right above who claimed it was "obvious" that because I was "descending" with my spikes on that the tree was a not a removal, so he then accused me of being a "spike-trimmer"

In my defense of that obvious professional slur I posted a photo showing the damage to the trunk of the tree (and another that came down that day), then I posted a link to the series of photos of the take down proving my innocence to anyone who followed the link. (do you guys do that?)

If that wasn't enough, I the posted a video of Oak Tree Care (not removal) that records me clearly stating my position with regards to using spikes on a tree I was caring for (as opposed to killing). I did label this "instructual", but I meant this as to my position about using my gaffs for climbing a tree for trimming as opposed to removal. So Mea Culpa Jeff, my apologies for the misunderstanding. 

And Swyman has come back! Well now that is a thick skin he has grown. For the most part I agreed with most, if not all, of the member's advice for him, but not so much the delivery. You guys are a tough crowd here.

But I've taken the night off to chill out (something very easy to do here in the 'burgh lately) and took the time to read over more of your guys work (and it is a piece of work) and now I think I get it. This is like the *Fight Club* of tree worker sites! 

And I have never backed out of a fight once the first blow was thrown, so I'm _in_ guys, you'll have to carry me out on my shield now to get rid of me! :bang:oke:

~ Doug


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2010)

So what's up guys and why was I recruited someone needin the onesy twosy


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*Honest, it was self defense...*



treeslayer said:


> ... you walked in asking for it. c'mon, bro you posted vid's of mediocre work, suggested we could learn from it, and a pic wearing spikes in a live tree. This is the forum for EXPERIENCED climbers, you will pay for every little offensive remark you make, whether you find it offensive or not...



Please see my response to Jeff above. You did't follow the links did you? Here they are again, they rather prove my innocence if you really care.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Aerial.Arborist.Service/ThreeBigOaks#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnAWiu3-FWw


treeslayer said:


> ... You seem to be a decent climber, don't run off, pay the dues and fit in... And stop picking on my beech jeffy, he's sensitive.



Wait there's dues here? Sorry but I've paid mine. I guess you missed my post about breaking 12 bones in the last year. Maybe you should follow the advice you gave about checking things out before you shoot _your_ mouth off? 

I'll be your beech, but first I'll cut your penis off, OK?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2010)

Start a business hell yeah I think 27 years of tree work gots me thinking nuclear physicist is more in line so I am off to start a new business


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## pdqdl (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> ...Paid mine. I guess you missed my post about breaking 12 bones in the last year. ...



Myself, I'd like to hear about that a little more. 

Doing what you do for a living while recovering from a car wreck is admirable, but necessary. Doing the same while recovering from a serious tree-work related incident gets a little more respect.

Continuing to work in trees while continuing to break yourself up in many smaller, work related accidents gets no respect; it invites some introspection into career choice.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*I don't get no respect ...*



pdqdl said:


> Myself, I'd like to hear about that a little more...



Well 11 of the broken bones came all at one time on Nov 8th of 2009. I don't deserve much respect for that one 'cause I was riding my 1200cc motorcycle with my wife on the back and she broke her ankle too.

I was life flighted by helicopter ($10,488.00) and spent four days in the trauma ward with a crushed chest and 3 more in a room on the same floor trying to get released. Once they took the morphine pump and spinal block off me I wanted outa there.

The 12th broken bone was a fracture of the L1 vertebra in my back. It was far more painful, (because I wasn't knocked out) and happened in June of this year. A work related fall, but not out of a tree. First lost time tree work related injury in four decades, so you couldn't call it habitual.

That I can still climb at all after that, regardless of my age, is somewhat miraculous. So when you watched me inch my way painfully slowly up the big Pine I was just doing my rehab exercise. Overhead pulling is very painful for the broken shoulders.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*Hired Gun Huh?*



ropensaddle said:


> So what's up guys and why was I recruited someone needin the onesy twosy



I know Clint and you ain't no Dirty Harry, maybe Dirty Dingus McGee though... and Huskys ain't #### compared to a Stihl.

:chainsawguy:

My name's Doug and I'm pleased to meet you.


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## pdqdl (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't know about miraculous. I have read a lot of war stories in the arboricultural injuries forum. There are quite a few tough old birds in this business. 

I think it is a trait of the industry. We must have a willingness to take risks, and putting up the consequences of risky behavior generally involves tolerating the discomfort of injuries.


BTW: I was looking at your videos, and _you have the most beautiful barber chair video I have ever seen._ That is a classic, and should be posted as a sticky in arborist 101.

Check out the post I will put there on "Barber chair theory", I have some new ideas on that topic, having seen your video.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*This here ain't no Rocket Science ...*



ropensaddle said:


> Start a business hell yeah I think 27 years of tree work gots me thinking nuclear physicist is more in line so I am off to start a new business



My major in college was Aerospace Technology, that's how I got into tree work.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> I know Clint and you ain't no Dirty Harry, maybe Dirty Dingus McGee though... and Huskys ain't #### compared to a Stihl.
> 
> :chainsawguy:
> 
> My name's Doug and I'm pleased to meet you.



A husky is a fine instrument of wood devastation. Stihl is a gadget full of defective parts including flippy caps and inferior air filtration. No I ain't Clint, I'm rope and dirty harry is after Clints real works.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> My major in college was Aerospace Technology, that's how I got into tree work.



Neil is that you:monkey:


----------



## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*Barber Pole*



pdqdl said:


> I don't know about miraculous....



What was miraculous about the bike wreck was that it didn't kill me. The helicopter ride saved my life, I was bleeding out internally with a lacerated spleen.



pdqdl said:


> I was looking at your videos, and _you have the most beautiful barber chair video I have ever seen._ That is a classic, and should be posted as a sticky in arborist 101.
> 
> Check out the post I will put there on "Barber chair theory", I have some new ideas on that topic, having seen your video.



You mean this one?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWMOM3tEkvs

You can download the video if you like, just change the names to protect the guilty. That barber chair was a result of my leaving a piece at the back for "more control" by using plunge cuts. It snapped off before I could complete the cut. I thought I whacked it off pretty quick though, I hoped no one would notice.


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## pdqdl (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> ..., I was bleeding out internally with a lacerated spleen.
> 
> ...



I have a former employee climber that nearly died when a falling branch ruptured his spleen.

Yes. He came down out of the tree with the branch when the trunk broke. He was working for a hack on a cash-only basis, so he was on his own for the massive medical bills.

_Just a reminder to the guys considering opening a business, the title of this thread..._


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 18, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I have a former employee climber that nearly died when a falling branch ruptured his spleen.
> 
> Yes. He came down out of the tree with the branch when the trunk broke. He was working for a hack on a cash-only basis, so he was on his own for the massive medical bills.
> 
> _Just a reminder to the guys considering opening a business, the title of this thread..._



:agree2:
Jeff


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> What was miraculous about the bike wreck was that it didn't kill me. The helicopter ride saved my life, I was bleeding out internally with a lacerated spleen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it referred to as barberchair when it's on the back of a bore cut? Just a strip of holding wood that didn't get cut through. Didn't look dangerous to me. I went through a few of your other vids trying to find the one pdql was referencing. Found this little gem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJEHNoIRTYU Quite the hemlock tree there. lol


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 18, 2010)

Hey Aerial, are you purposely trying to be an idiot or are you re-incarnated from a banned troll?
Jeff , seriously!


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## lxt (Dec 18, 2010)

That was me who asked if you were a spike trimmer? only fair due to the way the pic presented you!

depending on where you work out of in the burgh......chances are I have been close? Mt Lebanon, upper st.clair, greentree, foxchapell, squirell hill & just about everywhere in between!!

did you work outta the hall from greentree? If so I might even know you???




LXT................


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*Up, Up, and away ...*



lxt said:


> That was me who asked if you were a spike trimmer? only fair due to the way the pic presented you!



Not fair at all to jump to a conclusion based on faulty reasoning. I was descending after setting my TIP to limb walk and drop the lower branches which needed roped because they were over the garage. You only go up when working a tree?



lxt said:


> depending on where you work out of in the burgh......chances are I have been close? Mt Lebanon, upper st.clair, greentree, foxchapell, squirell hill & just about everywhere in between!! did you work outta the hall from greentree? If so I might even know you???



I'm working in Mt. Lebanon this week, wanna come watch? I'll even hire you as a groundie for the day if you want to work. Pretty complex take down (I'll be using my gaffs)


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## banshee67 (Dec 18, 2010)

i often wonder how anyone got into the tree business?
it seems everyone already in the tree business, says it sucks... and anyone wanting to enter into their world is an outsider , frowned upon, cursed at, and chased away.
is this more of a business strategy to keep competition low?
everyone has to start somewhere, no?
it seems like its a little secret society or something, thats the impression i get, i did residential/commerical tree work on a crew for over a year, was the lead groundie (big honor, i know) and it seemed like a bit of a secret society, my boss (who was new to owning a company, but not new to the world of climbing) seemed like he was an outsider. wed pull up to the diesel pumps at the truck stop in the morning and the other tree crews would be there.. some would talk to him, others would give him the cold shoulder. at first i thought there would be some sort of comradery amongst tree crews, the more i worked with him, the more i realized how wrong i was, there was one other company in particular that were real cool guys around our age, we would always talk to them at the bagelsmith, but most of the others seem to be trying SO hard to exude that tough guy persona, they had to look AND act the part, seems like a lot to keep up with.. it almost reminds me of the "tru####nd hipster" type kids you hear about now.. they try so hard to be "against the system" and "unique" but all they are doing is falling into line like the rest of the sheep. no matter what profession you are in, you should always be yourself. to me it seemed like so many of these guys ojn the other crews were so wrapped up in the tough tree guy persona, they were too busy to look in the mirror and realize how ridiculous the whole thing was.
they are trees... if someone wants to spend their life caring for them and learning about them.. who is anyone to tell them they cant?


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## Juicemang (Dec 18, 2010)

I think I saw some spikes on your white pine trim?? Why do all of your vids cut off before you top anything??? then pick up again when you drop the spar? some good laughs in your vids ill be waiting for more =)


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## lxt (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Not fair at all to jump to a conclusion based on faulty reasoning. I was descending after setting my TIP to limb walk and drop the lower branches which needed roped because they were over the garage. You only go up when working a tree?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm working in Mt. Lebanon this week, wanna come watch? I'll even hire you as a groundie for the day if you want to work. Pretty complex take down (I'll be using my gaffs)





Faulty reasoning uh? Im wondering who you are?? cuz I worked that area & still do from time to time........trained alot of guys from up there!!

I have alot of work down here to keep me busy for a long time!! but who knows maybe one day my team & I can come help!!

be safe & take care!!


LXT.....................


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

*You're in the Fight Club, what do you expect?*



banshee67 said:


> i often wonder how anyone got into the tree business?
> it seems everyone already in the tree business, says it sucks... and anyone wanting to enter into their world is an outsider , frowned upon, cursed at, and chased away.
> is this more of a business strategy to keep competition low?
> everyone has to start somewhere, no?
> ...



Successful climbers tend to develop somewhat of a God complex because by the nature of the job the are God (if only a lesser one) when they are working a tree. This is a much sought after position among tree workers as once gained is coveted and protected.

I once was hired as a climber by a well established local tree company and being older (I was in my 50s) it irritated one of the groundies who felt he was ready to be promoted to climber. The other groundies supported their co-worker and I got the very minimum of help from the ground crew and I was even endangered by their miss handling of the lowering ropes, at one point being knocked off the tree by a large trunk section they held at my level instead of letting it fall by me before arresting it.

I started lowering my own cuts and that just made them even more irritated. I came to a head when after a while the wannabe climber tried to head butt me during a "conversation". I was wearing my climbing hat and he was not wearing his hard hat so he just knocked himself silly. 

Funny thing was, after that he became my rope man and was able to actually respect and learn from me. 

This place seems to be a similar situation, no one is really much interested in dialog about climbing and rigging here it seems, but I have been under attack by a continual stream of members who seek to somehow discredit me with their comments. This forum is a Fight Club for tree workers who seem to favor argument over dialog.

I'm hoping that over time this will lighten up and we can talk about climbing and rigging with members who care about such things and drop their adversarial nit picking. We'll see how it goes.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 18, 2010)

lxt said:


> Faulty reasoning uh? Im wondering who you are?? cuz I worked that area & still do from time to time... I have alot of work down here to keep me busy for a long time!! but who knows maybe one day my team & I can come help!!...



You were quite sure that the tree was being mishandled because nobody comes down a tree after setting their TIP, I'd say that was faulty reasoning and the proof of it was in the photographs I provided of it's take down.

You don't have to wonder who I am, come and meet me in Mt. Lebanon. I only offered you a job as a groundie because that's the position I put anyone in on their first day. Since you seem very experienced I may hire you for a day (or half a day) as climber. I have three trees to take down, you could pick one.

What would you charge for a six hour day in Mt. lebanon? I plan to start the job on Tuesday, with Wednesday or Thursday as needed.


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## ducaticorse (Dec 18, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> You were quite sure that the tree was being mishandled because nobody comes down a tree after setting their TIP, I'd say that was faulty reasoning and the proof of it was in the photographs I provided of it's take down.
> 
> You don't have to wonder who I am, come and meet me in Mt. Lebanon. I only offered you a job as a groundie because that's the position I put anyone in on their first day. Since you seem very experienced I may hire you for a day (or half a day) as climber. I have three trees to take down, you could pick one.
> 
> What would you charge for a six hour day in Mt. lebanon? I plan to start the job on Tuesday, with Wednesday or Thursday as needed.



Didnt read weather you were the thread starter. My only advice pertaining to starting your own op is that you have it mapped out in your head, triple whatever $ you think you need, have a strong grip mentally and physicaly on reality, and hold on. If you pay for your gear and advertising in cash, you may have a chance. If you have payments, you probably wont. Mortgaged equipment Insurance, tax, titles, advertising = no joke. Unless you have a benefactor....


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 19, 2010)

Is there a part 2 to the spruce removal I wanted to see where you parked that top Ariel arborist


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## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Is there a part 2 to the spruce removal I wanted to see where you parked that top Ariel arborist



Yeah right, me too!

I can see why there is no paint left on the bar of that saw.. man, you'd think there where teeth on the side of that thing or something, the way that dude was cutting.. Jeepers!


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah right, me too!
> 
> I can see why there is no paint left on the bar of that saw.. man, you'd think there where teeth on the side of that thing or something, the way that dude was cutting.. Jeepers!



Maybe cut to commercial precisely when the hedge was smashed to bits ...


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## the Aerialist (Dec 19, 2010)

*That's All Folks ... but there's photos!*



treeclimber101 said:


> Is there a part 2 to the spruce removal I wanted to see where you parked that top Ariel arborist



No, sadly I got 45 min of the camera running on a tripod facing the backyard while the crane took me up and plucked it off the house, then pulled the two remaining parts of the tree and laid them in the driveway.

I do have a gallery of stills my wife took while the videocam was pointed the wrong way:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Aerial.Arborist.Service/CraneHemlock

We were still trying to work out getting both video and stills and we didn't do real well on either. We're better now.


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## treeclimber101 (Dec 19, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> No, sadly I got 45 min of the camera running on a tripod facing the backyard while the crane took me up and plucked it off the house, then pulled the two remaining parts of the tree and laid them in the driveway.
> 
> I do have a gallery of stills my wife took while the videocam was pointed the wrong way:
> 
> ...



You picked the top , seems like you cut the video with a pull rope hooked up and told the guys to take it to the truck, I dunno maybe we are talking about different videos .....


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 19, 2010)

Breaking my silence once again. Dude, that job looked like cake and unless that crane was yours and on your dime, well, maybe you over-think things, ( yeah, I am ready for it! Hey guy's, show AA we don't play favorites). Sock it to me!
Jeff


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 19, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> You picked the top , seems like you cut the video with a pull rope hooked up and told the guys to take it to the truck, I dunno maybe we are talking about different videos .....



A lot of the confusion is lying with AA's bewilderment as to what type of tree he's cutting. The job your referring to was a spruce that he calls a pine. The job he's talking about is an arborvitae that he thinks is a hemlock. On that spruce vid, by the way he was dropping the limbs I'm quite certain he doesn't consider hedges to be targets. On the arborvitae any tree guy worth his salt could have had it on the ground safely before the outriggers of the crane were set. It'd be one thing if he was a young guy, or my age, or yours, or just getting into the business but after 40 some years I honestly am amazed he hasn't killed himself or destroyed something major. It's a shame he's so sure of himself because he's funny and could probably hang and learn a few things. He's a bit entertaining but I think someone just needs to run this no talent hack off already.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 19, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> A lot of the confusion is lying with AA's bewilderment as to what type of tree he's cutting. The job your referring to was a spruce that he calls a pine. The job he's talking about is an arborvitae that he thinks is a hemlock. On that spruce vid, by the way he was dropping the limbs I'm quite certain he doesn't consider hedges to be targets. On the arborvitae any tree guy worth his salt could have had it on the ground safely before the outriggers of the crane were set. It'd be one thing if he was a young guy, or my age, or yours, or just getting into the business but after 40 some years I honestly am amazed he hasn't killed himself or destroyed something major. It's a shame he's so sure of himself because he's funny and could probably hang and learn a few things. He's a bit entertaining but I think someone just needs to run this no talent hack off already.



Ouch, Blakes. But totally true. 
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

I haven't been following this whole thing too closely, and have only been able to see a couple of the vids, but I think jeffers said troll, and I gotta agree. Nobody could be that annoying and not be a troll.. just sayin. 

... and nobody could be that bad with tree ID after 40 years. Annoying.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I haven't been following this whole thing too closely, and have only been able to see a couple of the vids, but I think jeffers said troll, and I gotta agree. Nobody could be that annoying and not be a troll.. just sayin.
> 
> ... and nobody could be that bad with tree ID after 40 years. Annoying.



And count how many times he uses the word 'instuctional' when posting vids.
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

I saw the pine (spruce) vid, and he was either faking getting all worked up towards the top ("jeepers, this is high -even for me"! ..c'mon!) or he looked like a two year climber.. or maybe he was suffering from some sort of chemical imbalance.


----------



## Rftreeman (Dec 19, 2010)

tree md said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> _An arborist, or (less commonly) arboriculturalist, is a professional in the practice of arboriculture, which is the cultivation, management, and study of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants._
> 
> If you fit in that description than you are an arborist whether you are cerified or not. I had planned to get my certification a couple of years back but have real problems with some of the ISA's newer policies and requirements. I do however prune according to their guidelines. What I don't need is to be told how to be ethical. I find that insulting.


well damn!!!!! that means I really am an arborist....lol...


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## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> well damn!!!!! that means I really am an arborist....lol...



Well maybe but to be sure define: apical dominance, What role does it play in your trimming?

Ok how does soil compaction effect macropores and micropores and what is its result in phc?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

How does included bark create weak attachment?


What is the common result of lions tail and how can you restore a tree that has been lions tailed?


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

What does a lenticel do?

guard cell , pyrachma cell ?


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

What is codit and how does it come into play in phc?


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## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

It's okay rope, don't strain your eyes too hard!


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> It's okay rope, don't strain your eyes too hard!



Lol those are easy I am into some other stuff harder to grasp now! I think it is getting closer to test time fer ole rope lol.


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## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol those are easy I am into some other stuff harder to grasp now! I think it is getting closer to test time fer ole rope lol.



Good for you. You should just do it! 

I'm gonna try and see if it isn't too late to sign up for the CT arborists test, that's in january tomorrow. I'm pretty certain I'll fail the first time, but at least get the feel for it I figure.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Good for you. You should just do it!
> 
> I'm gonna try and see if it isn't too late to sign up for the CT arborists test, that's in january tomorrow. I'm pretty certain I'll fail the first time, but at least get the feel for it I figure.



Yeah the chemical and fertilizer disease n stuffs where I am having some issues. I plan to test in February!


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## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah the chemical and fertilizer disease n stuffs where I am having some issues. I plan to test in February!



The written part of ours is the only part I would have (or so I've been told) trouble with, and that's multiple choice, so there's always hope! lol.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> The written part of ours is the only part I would have (or so I've been told) trouble with, and that's multiple choice, so there's always hope! lol.



Lol but rope won't accept just best guessing I got to know the material ya know


----------



## tree MDS (Dec 19, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol but rope won't accept just best guessing I got to know the material ya know



Yeah, I heard your theory on this before. The thing is, you aint gonna live forever pard! and what good is a cert gonna do you, if you in a walker.. lmfao!

Sorry... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Yeah, I heard your theory on this before. The thing is, you aint gonna live forever pard! and what good is a cert gonna do you, if you in a walker.. lmfao!
> 
> Sorry... :hmm3grin2orange:



My plan is to learn all I can bro, going to test though. I will then fill in the blanks quickly! But its like this if I am in a walker I will teach!


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 19, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I haven't been following this whole thing too closely, and have only been able to see a couple of the vids, but I think jeffers said troll, and I gotta agree. Nobody could be that annoying and not be a troll.. just sayin.
> 
> ... and nobody could be that bad with tree ID after 40 years. Annoying.


 I know this guys son! I just let him go!


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## Rftreeman (Dec 19, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Well maybe but to be sure define: apical dominance, What role does it play in your trimming?
> 
> Ok how does soil compaction effect macropores and micropores and what is its result in phc?





ropensaddle said:


> How does included bark create weak attachment?
> 
> 
> What is the common result of lions tail and how can you restore a tree that has been lions tailed?





ropensaddle said:


> What does a lenticel do?
> 
> guard cell , pyrachma cell ?





ropensaddle said:


> What is codit and how does it come into play in phc?


educate me....


----------



## lxt (Dec 20, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> You were quite sure that the tree was being mishandled because nobody comes down a tree after setting their TIP, I'd say that was faulty reasoning and the proof of it was in the photographs I provided of it's take down.
> 
> You don't have to wonder who I am, come and meet me in Mt. Lebanon. I only offered you a job as a groundie because that's the position I put anyone in on their first day. Since you seem very experienced I may hire you for a day (or half a day) as climber. I have three trees to take down, you could pick one.
> 
> What would you charge for a six hour day in Mt. lebanon? I plan to start the job on Tuesday, with Wednesday or Thursday as needed.





Ohh....Double A! 1st off, I dont think my *opinion* was faulty reasoning!!! 2nd...before I help/work with anyone *I want to know them*, 3rd...although you might think what you offered is good...I will pass!! If I go to Mt.lebanon/Upper St. Clair It`ll be for my team & I to provide service to our customers!!!

As I have already said I have more than enough work for the next couple weeks! BUT NOW TO WHO YOU ARE????? I am thinking I probably know you? or those who work with you? you never did answer my question about if you worked for 1919? BTW. My name is Doug Long!! see no secrets.....your turn.



LXT........................


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## lxt (Dec 20, 2010)

Ropes,

you will do fine on the test!! you will miss some if not many questions cuz thats how its designed, I always thought rewording definitions/twisting things was a type of "test trickery" But it makes you think!!!

You will do good!!

LXT.............


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> educate me....



Lol hey just saying ya want to be average arborist which is all I am you gotta know all that and more! You want to be top shelf get ready for study round the clock imo. 

I will going from memory give an example of ropes answer to first question and then the real arborists can pick me apart lol. Apical dominance is the ability of apical bud to regulate plant growth by regulating auxin therefore slowing differentiation at zone of elongation (meristem)

I use this trait in my pruning to manipulate growth and invigorate areas lacking sufficient green woody tissue with minimal pruning.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

included bark causes weak attachments by forming bark deposits in steep angled branch structure and limiting healthy attachments by, so doing. Many times cracks form in the normal attachment area.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

Lions tail occurs through improper pruning and at times naturally occurring creating elongated limbs with inadequate taper. Many times crown thinning to produce epicormic shoots and then cultivate the better attached of these shoots can somewhat reduce this improper growth by slowing the elongation and thickening inner structure.


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## treeslayer (Dec 20, 2010)

The ROPE is giving the SLAYER a headache.:monkey:

He thinks I'm gonna get my Shigo books out, he better remember it's too cold for that bookworming brainbone numbing stuff, I'm gonna go watch squidbillies......


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> The ROPE is giving the SLAYER a headache.:monkey:
> 
> He thinks I'm gonna get my Shigo books out, he better remember it's too cold for that bookworming brainbone numbing stuff, I'm gonna go watch squidbillies......



Merely pointing out that there is more to arborist than many may think! I can do the climbing rigging too friend and though ropes read most of that, it is in his head and likely incorrect, if so; I am sure to be told


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## treeslayer (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm just glad to see your alzheimers is in remission, ol' boy. 
Mine's raging, where am I?:monkey:


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> I'm just glad to see your alzheimers is in remission, ol' boy.
> Mine's raging, where am I?:monkey:



I am not the sharpest bud in the tree but at least I am not latent :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeslayer (Dec 20, 2010)

you're late, again? :monkey:

proves nothing wrong with some good bud before going up the the tree, and some cold bud when ya get down.....


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

lenticel small openings found in stems, trunks that aid in gas exchange.


guard cell aids in gas exchange transpiration and respiration by regulating stomata.



Parenchyma cell misspelled but is a cell used as food storage that many times are lain in arrangements which aid in conduction throughout trunk.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

Codit the ability of wood organism's to wall off wounds by creating a four sided wall.


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## tree md (Dec 20, 2010)

CODIT-Compartmentalization of Decay In Trees.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Well at least you spelled 'Codit' right!
> 
> 
> ....but other than that, Nope.



Lmfao I know my spelling needs improvement but in response to injury walls form to protect tree from decay your going to make me look it up ain't you lol. I know I may have something wrong five sides hmmmmm ok I go look up now ok.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

tree md said:


> CODIT-Compartmentalization of Decay In Trees.



Sure that's too easy please explain?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Sure that's too easy please explain?



According to CODIT, when a tree is wounded cells undergo changes to form "walls" around the wound, slowing or preventing the spread of disease and decay to the rest of the tree.

* Wall 1. The first wall is formed by plugging up normally porous vascular tissue above and below the wound. This tissue runs up and down the length of the stem, so plugging it slows the vertical spread of decay. Tissues are plugged in various ways, such as with tylosis. This wall is the weakest.

* Wall 2. The second wall is formed by the cells of the growth ring interior to the wound, thus slowing the inward spread of decay. This wall is the second weakest, and is continuous except where intersected by ray cells (see next section).

* Wall 3. The third wall is formed by ray cells, which are groups of cells oriented perpendicularly to the stem axis, dividing the stem into sections not entirely unlike the slices of a pie. These groups of cells are not continuous and vary in length, height and thickness, forming a maze-like barrier to lateral growth of decay. After wounding, some ray cells are also altered chemically, becoming poisonous to some microorganisms. This is the strongest wall at the time of wounding, prior to the growth of the fourth wall.

* Wall 4. The fourth wall is created by new growth on the exterior of the tree, isolating tissue present at the time of infection from that which will grow after. This is the strongest wall, and often the only one which will completely halt the spread of infection. When only the fourth wall remains intact, the result is something most people have seen walking through the woods or in a park: a living tree with a completely rotted-out interior. In such cases, all the tissue present at the time of injury has become infected, but new healthy tissue has been allowed to continue to grow outside of the fourth wall.


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## tree md (Dec 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Sure that's too easy please explain?



Pretty simple concept to me... Walled off seems to explain it pretty well I think. Healing, though not the correct term, puts in in terms that most HO's can understand. Callousing over is how I picture it in my mind.

Anyway, I just figured I would post the acronym for anyone who didn't know.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

tree md said:


> Pretty simple concept to me... Walled off seems to explain it pretty well I think. Healing, though not the correct term, puts in in terms that most HO's can understand. Callousing over is how I picture it in my mind.
> 
> Anyway, I just figured I would post the acronym for anyone who didn't know.



You were right for what codit stood for I was expecting the process to be explained and I got lazy by just saying walled off and tree co made me gather info not in my head lol.


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## lxt (Dec 20, 2010)

WTF.....is this jeopardy? LOL, making you look stuff up uh ropes? this site has done that to me too. its kinda cool what ya can learn on here!!



LXT............


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

lxt said:


> WTF.....is this jeopardy? LOL, making you look stuff up uh ropes? this site has done that to me too. its kinda cool what ya can learn on here!!
> 
> 
> 
> LXT............



Lol on the contrary if rope stops learning they're gonna cover him up with compacted clay particles.


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## GLOBOTREE (Dec 20, 2010)

*The Woodsman*



ropensaddle said:


> According to CODIT, when a tree is wounded cells undergo changes to form "walls" around the wound, slowing or preventing the spread of disease and decay to the rest of the tree.
> 
> * Wall 1. The first wall is formed by plugging up normally porous vascular tissue above and below the wound. This tissue runs up and down the length of the stem, so plugging it slows the vertical spread of decay. Tissues are plugged in various ways, such as with tylosis. This wall is the weakest.
> 
> ...



Hey rope I think yer alright man, goin the distance for the good ol boys!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

GLOBOTREE said:


> Hey rope I think yer alright man, goin the distance for the good ol boys!



Lmfao copy and paste is the easy part lol 

Now that is too easy for a hillbilly lol he must try to remember and get laughed at when he posts incorrect answer, humility is a great teacher :monkey:


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Well at least you spelled 'Codit' right!
> 
> 
> ....but other than that, Nope.



Hey Rope, he meant ' compartmentalization'. Keep it up! Good for you man!
Jeff :yourock:


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol on the contrary if rope stops learning they're gonna cover him up with compacted clay particles.



With no 'macropores!!!' Arg!
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 20, 2010)

*Can't seem to PM you ...*



lxt said:


> ... BUT NOW TO WHO YOU ARE????? I am thinking I probably know you? or those who work with you? you never did answer my question about if you worked for 1919? BTW. My name is Doug Long!! see no secrets.....your turn....



Hey my name is Doug too! I tried twice to PM you but it didn't go, crap lots of typing too and I'm slow.

I'm not hiding. Most of my videos have my web site prominently displayed, I'll make it easy here's the link:

http://www.AerialArborist.com

Go there and read all about me and my business. As far as 1919 what is that? You guys got a Union now? But I have been at the 1908 bar in Market Square downtown.

I wanted to do this in a PM but apparently your account is not accepting them. Just as I have said earlier I am working in Mt. Lebanon tomorrow (Tues) and Wednesday with Thursday being needed most likely as well.

The nitty gritty is that there are three trees to take down. If you want to work and quote me a fair hourly price for contract climbing you are hired and you can take your pick of the trees. There is plenty of tree work for both of us to do. I have three, maybe four ground workers coming. You don't have to pick up a twig, they will run the chipper and drag the brush. If you want to bring your own ropeman I'll pay him $15 hr with a bonus if you two achieve high production working together, payment in cash before you leave.

The third tree is big and has a major low hanging branch that is right over the house service line. If you have a towable lift you will wish you brought it should you chose to work that tree.

The rub is this project starts tomorrow at 10:00 in Mt. Lebanon. I have Wednesday and Thursday blocked out and I am hoping to start on the more difficult tree on Wednesday, although I won't have the luxury of a lift and I'll have to limbwalk way out to get at the wires, thats _if_ I can get both of the easy ones done tomorrow. Otherwise, and most likely, the big one will go into Thursday.

I'll pay a fair wage (just tell me what it is) and I'll pay extra (you name it) if you bring the lift. There will be much more work for you if this works out.

Fastest way is get my cell phone humber off the heading of my web site and give me a call. It's a 24/7 phone line, but leave a message if I am unable to answer.

Or send me an email:

[email protected]

I could honestly use some help on this one.

*DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO ALERT DOUG TO THIS MESSAGE? PLEASE DO IT IF YOU CAN*


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Hey my name is Doug too! I tried twice to PM you but it didn't go, crap lots of typing too and I'm slow.
> 
> I'm not hiding. Most of my videos have my web site prominently displayed, I'll make it easy here's the link:
> 
> ...



Hiya Doug!!  May I be a 'Devil's Advocate' for a moment? Thanks, I will. 
So you offer all this service and then end your post with " Quote" , I could really use your help on this one." Quote.
Did you bid that in? You need to really slow down and take a breathe. We are tree guy's too and for me, you sound desperate. No offense, just being me. 
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 20, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Hiya Doug!!  May I be a 'Devil's Advocate' for a moment? Thanks, I will.
> So you offer all this service and then end your post with " Quote" , I could really use your help on this one." Quote.
> Did you bid that in? You need to really slow down and take a breathe. We are tree guy's too and for me, you sound desperate. No offense, just being me.
> Jeff



No I really could use a good climber on this job, this is Christmas week and cold as hell here, I'm trading money for comfort and speed. I've bid this job to where I could bring another climber in. Doug's pay will be in cash at the end of the day. Offering to let him bring his own ropeman I think is more than fair. I know how important a ropeman is though.

And as far as honesty needing help on this one, I will do this job this week with or without Doug and with or without a lift.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> No I really could use a good climber on this job, this is Christmas week and cold as hell here, I'm trading money for comfort and speed. I've bid this job to where I could bring another climber in. Doug's pay will be in cash at the end of the day. Offering to let him bring his own ropeman I think is more than fair. I know how important a ropeman is though.
> 
> And as far as honesty needing help on this one, I will do this job this week with or without Doug and with or without a lift.



You seem like a good guy. I still want to Razz you tho. I feel your strong point is marketing ( which I know) and desire to fit in. Good job AA.
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 20, 2010)

*Desire to fit in?*



jefflovstrom said:


> You seem like a good guy. I still want to Razz you tho. I feel your strong point is marketing ( which I know) and desire to fit in. Good job AA.
> Jeff



Desire to fit it? Not so much Jeff, I'm quite a Maverick and always have been. It's always worked to my benefit. I only tolerate you guys 'cause I want to learn from you. 

Actually in the flesh I'm quite personable, well spoken and easy to like, especially if I'm selling you something. I'm quite an affable guy when I want to be, on the other hand... Well I won't go there...


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## the Aerialist (Dec 20, 2010)

*Here's how good a guy I am ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> You seem like a good guy...



Oh actually I am I do my civic duty even when I have a big job in bad conditions the next day. I just got a message and accepted the job (I'm a licensed,checked out by the FBI and TSA) Courier with an Airport security clearance and more importantly credentialed to park in the commercial lot at PIT.

I'm picking up a box of human tissue (I call it the eyeball run) from the Lion's club eyebank in Newark coming into PIT (Pittsburgh International Airport) I do this nearly 365 days a year, Including Thanksgiving, Christmas, New year and most infuriating for my wife, valentine's day.

It doesn't pay that well and my wife says I'm crazy to keep doing it, but I've done it for 127 weeks straight. I think I'm helping people.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Oh actually I am I do my civic duty even when I have a big job in bad conditions the next day. I just got a message and accepted the job (I'm a licensed,checked out by the FBI and TSA) Courier with an Airport security clearance and more importantly credentialed to park in the commercial lot at PIT.
> 
> I'm picking up a box of human tissue (I call it the eyeball run) from the Lion's club eyebank in Newark coming into PIT (Pittsburgh International Airport) I do this nearly 365 days a year, Including Thanksgiving, Christmas, New year and most infuriating for my wife, valentine's day.
> 
> It doesn't pay that well and my wife says I'm crazy to keep doing it, but I've done it for 127 weeks straight. I think I'm helping people.



Duh! That is what I just said!  Guess what I gotta do in the morning in the middle of the ' Pine-apple Express'. I got to cross the San Marcos Creek! Yeah! No, Dang creek makes you think. My tail-pipe under-water. When I wake up tomorrow, it will be a little over 3 feet high. Here is a pic when then creek is not so high.
Jeff


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## tree md (Dec 20, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Oh actually I am I do my civic duty even when I have a big job in bad conditions the next day. I just got a message and accepted the job (I'm a licensed,checked out by the FBI and TSA) Courier with an Airport security clearance and more importantly credentialed to park in the commercial lot at PIT.
> 
> I'm picking up a box of human tissue (I call it the eyeball run) from the Lion's club eyebank in Newark coming into PIT (Pittsburgh International Airport) I do this nearly 365 days a year, Including Thanksgiving, Christmas, New year and most infuriating for my wife, valentine's day.
> 
> It doesn't pay that well and my wife says I'm crazy to keep doing it, but I've done it for 127 weeks straight. I think I'm helping people.



That's nice...

I like to club Seals in my spare time...


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## the Aerialist (Dec 20, 2010)

*What are you driving?*



jefflovstrom said:


> ... I got to cross the San Marcos Creek! Yeah! ... When I wake up tomorrow, it will be a little over 3 feet high...
> Jeff



I hope you got something lifted!


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

So I made this thing to fit nice enuff to get thru the creek. Kinda wanna not have to rev it up to get thru. I take it off on the other side. Laugh if you want, but you are not me.  
A lot of rain here. I could be trapped!!! :rant:
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 20, 2010)

*I'll help ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> ... Laugh if you want, but you are not me.
> A lot of rain here. I could be trapped!!!
> Jeff



I tried about the same thing with a dirt bike in the Winter, way back in the woods. I tried the opposite approach (I didn't have a homemade snorkel) I tried to gun it through but only made it halfway before the engine drowned.. Once I pushed to the far bank I realized I had to push it through again to get home. 

friendly advice: roll your windows down and don't wear your seatbelt for this one.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 20, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> So I made this thing to fit nice enuff to get thru the creek. Kinda wanna not have to rev it up to get thru. I take it off on the other side. Laugh if you want, but you are not me.
> A lot of rain here. I could be trapped!!! :rant:
> Jeff



oops!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Hey Rope, he meant ' compartmentalization'. Keep it up! Good for you man!
> Jeff :yourock:



Lol my internode just shot plum past its leaf scar if that's possible I have been contemplating my infiltration rates here at the farm and though it is rich in clay I have many macropores here but little silt or sand it seems ideal for a tree farm setting.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol my internode just shot plum past its leaf scar if that's possible I have been contemplating my infiltration rates here at the farm and though it is rich in clay I have many macropores here but little silt or sand it seems ideal for a tree farm setting.



Having many pin oak and white oak even red oak starters in the 8 foot range I was wondering if a bagged and bur lapped setting after a years hardening would be a promotable service or if it would be more work than its worth?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Having many pin oak and white oak even red oak starters in the 8 foot range I was wondering if a bagged and bur lapped setting after a years hardening would be a promotable service or if it would be more work than its worth?



I have not looked into trees of that size pricing!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 20, 2010)

Hmmmm maybe christmas trees would be a better result.


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## TMFARM 2009 (Dec 20, 2010)

i would say personally if you want a tree service then start out by partnering with someone. or even private contract with another company to gain experience in the field before going alone.....the fab shop would be a better business i agree due to the demand for various products....you could build farm implements or about anything to stay a float our local fab shop build pallet racks and various things for different companies when work gets slow.... find a company that requires items that aren't local and build them locally to save freight cost's etc.... to try to run two business's at same time is a real headache. i worked the 40hr job and ran 2 small business's and lets say there was no time to do anything right....i sold both business's to get some free time and saved money and sanity. you would be better off if still interested in cutting trees to start a firewood service and buy a bandsaw mill for a side business.less cost and risk...and could still run out of same shop.just a thought.:newbie:


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## the Aerialist (Dec 21, 2010)

*Well, an on topic comment ...*



TMFARM 2009 said:


> i would say personally if you want a tree service then start out by partnering with someone. or even private contract with another company to gain experience in the field before going alone....



That is exactly what I did, my Mentor and partner was very old school, I think he only had one carabiner and it was a screw lock. He was all about knots for everything. But he was good, real good in the tree.

The problem was once I started climbing more then we had two climbers that's hard in a small business, it's sort of like the Highlander with climbers, "There can only be one". We both agreed to go our own way, but in the end I had work and he didn't. He's a chicken farmer now, claims he working in trees occasionally. But I'm not so sure, I've offered him jobs but he is too proud to accept.

I worked as a IC climber for a few companies during this time and made good money 'cause it was steady, but gradually my web site and word of mouth built my business up and I only rarely have gone out as an IC. I went from $160 to $200 a day, then $400 and even $500 a day. Once I hit that level the demand for my services went way down.

Now with my own business I shoot for $1000 a day, my end, after paying my crew. Of course not every job works out that well, but that how much it takes to pay the bills. Sometimes the crew makes more than me after expenses.


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## treeslayer (Dec 21, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Sometimes the crew makes more than me after expenses.



And we go home and keep working.....


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## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> And we go home and keep working.....



Always wood needin split lol


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## treeslayer (Dec 21, 2010)

QUOTE=ropensaddle;2653214]Always wood needin split lol[/QUOTE]

that never :censored: ends....


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## swyman (Dec 21, 2010)

I plan to build a log processor. I have been planning to do it for some time, just have not spent the money but I have everything planned out. I will convert my current splitter and I have a 50' elevator. Need a pump and a power source, looking for a 3 or 4 cylinder diesel. I have found harvestor bars but still lack a source for a hydraulic motor to power it. Guess I will have to just buy a small motor and make a hub to fit a drive sprocket to power the bar. Here's my splitter, will need to rework to make an adjustable multi wedge.


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## lxt (Dec 21, 2010)

Double AA I got your PM & replied, however...I am booked till mid Jan. I PM`ed you my rates & availability!

short notice??? LOL, yes it was! Sorry, hope all goes good with the Mt. Leb job.



LXT..............


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## treeslayer (Dec 21, 2010)

swyman said:


> I plan to build a log processor. I have been planning to do it for some time, just have not spent the money but I have everything planned out. I will convert my current splitter and I have a 50' elevator. Need a pump and a power source, looking for a 3 or 4 cylinder diesel. I have found harvestor bars but still lack a source for a hydraulic motor to power it. Guess I will have to just buy a small motor and make a hub to fit a drive sprocket to power the bar. Here's my splitter, will need to rework to make an adjustable multi wedge.



Man that splitter is WAY too cool.......


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## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2010)

quote:
that never :censored: ends....[/quote]

chop chopoke: Hook up flood lights bro!


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## the Aerialist (Dec 21, 2010)

*[email protected] Out ...*



lxt said:


> Double AA I got your PM & replied, however...I am booked till mid Jan. I PM`ed you my rates & availability!
> 
> short notice??? LOL, yes it was! Sorry, hope all goes good with the Mt. Leb job....



I replied to your PM, thanks for sending it. I'm sure I'll be calling you. While I did meet my goal of dropping and chopping the two smaller trees it took far too long. I was able to get the fourth ground man, but I wasn't able to saturate them. (_as I had bragged about being able to do earlier_).

I go off my meds when climbing, and I was really feeling my age when we got there, and my first climb only exacerbated that feeling. It was a hard dead tree and right away I gaffed out and twisted my knee before I made my first significant cut. That gimped me pretty bad and made an already bad start worse all day.

My 30 year old chipper was feeling it's age too, the drive system froze up and it quit working, fortunately, unlike my problem, it happened near the end of the day and we got all the brush chipped up. But now I've got the bigger tree tomorrow and no chipper.

We left several tons of wood on the job after we loaded a beefed up Chevy 3500 Pickup and the dump to their limits. I'm going to try to get the chipper looked at tomorrow, and am am getting a 5 ton dump to get the wood. But without the chipper job cost just shot up.


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## pdqdl (Dec 21, 2010)

That sounds like a typical day at my business, too. It seems that almost every day something goes bad and eats all my profits.

Except that I have never gaffed out since I bought the Geckos. They really stick to a tree! I really like them a lot.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> That sounds like a typical day at my business, too. It seems that almost every day something goes bad and eats all my profits.
> 
> Except that I have never gaffed out since I bought the Geckos. They really stick to a tree! I really like them a lot.



Yup this tree stuff is a money pit don't know why I did not just become a crab fisherman :monkey:


----------



## the Aerialist (Dec 22, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> ... I have never gaffed out since I bought the Geckos. They really stick to a tree! I really like them a lot.



I'm climbing on a new set of Buckingham Titianiums and I seem to gaff out a lot more than my AU Bashlins, I'm going back to the Bashlins tomorrow.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 22, 2010)

*I caught a lot of crabs on one Spring Break ...*



ropensaddle said:


> Yup this tree stuff is a money pit don't know why I did not just become a crab fisherman :monkey:



Millions in fact, if it weren't for Pyronite I'd probably still have them.


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## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup this tree stuff is a money pit don't know why I did not just become a crab fisherman :monkey:



'Cause storms mean more more money, not less?

Maybe when the crab boat craps out, you couldn't walk home if you had to?


----------



## tree MDS (Dec 22, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Millions in fact, if it weren't for Pyronite I'd probably still have them.



TMI old timer.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> 'Cause storms mean more more money, not less?
> 
> Maybe when the crab boat craps out, you couldn't walk home if you had to?



Ehhh coulda done worse things lol like a vacuum cleaner salesman lol


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> TMI old timer.



Hell you ain't lived if you ain't had a crab or 50 lol.


----------



## tree MDS (Dec 22, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Hell you ain't lived if you ain't had a crab or 50 lol.



I'll take the ropes word on that one.. 

.. I thought them things died out in the fifties though.. never actually heard of anyone getting them in modern times. lol.


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## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Ehhh coulda done worse things lol like a vacuum cleaner salesman lol



One of my better friends from High School started out selling vacuum cleaners. Later, he worked for me. After that, he went to work for one of my customers. Later, I worked for him when he became a manager for that company.

He ended up being the Executive Vice-President of a realty company that owned and operated zillions of dollars worth of real estate. _He never told me his salary, but it wasn't small._ When he finally left their employ, he reported to me that he got a lump settlement for 3 full years of pay!

So...even selling vacuums can lead to good things.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> One of my better friends from High School started out selling vacuum cleaners. Later, he worked for me. After that, he went to work for one of my customers. Later, I worked for him when he became a manager for that company.
> 
> He ended up being the Executive Vice-President of a realty company that owned and operated zillions of dollars worth of real estate. _He never told me his salary, but it wasn't small._ When he finally left their employ, he reported to me that he got a lump settlement for 3 full years of pay!
> 
> So...even selling vacuums can lead to good things.



Yeah your right, just humor was all. I try to keep my spirits up with humor sometimes with success sometimes not so much.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I'll take the ropes word on that one..
> 
> .. I thought them things died out in the fifties though.. never actually heard of anyone getting them in modern times. lol.



Naw there alive and well lol them things are weird critters they don't seem to have a top or bottom flip em over on a black piece of paper they will crawl the same as on their belly. I got them once and yes she was worth it lol.


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## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2010)

Funny how some stories converge! 

The vacuum salesman turned PDQ employee came to me once with a small mite on his finger, asking me "What's this?"

It turns out that you don't need to go to a fancy seafood restaurant to order up some crabs. As I recall, he found as many as he could wish for at the local pickup bar.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 22, 2010)

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....................backing away,slowly backing away..............out :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....................backing away,slowly backing away..............out :hmm3grin2orange:



chickenoke:


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 22, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> chickenoke:



110%!!!!

We had a critter outbreak when I was in Motor T school at Pendelton, they made us take out all our mattresses! Crabs in the Brks, not good, EVERYBODY GOT THEM, EVERYBODY!
Even our SSgt!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> 110%!!!!
> 
> We had a critter outbreak when I was in Motor T school at Pendelton, they made us take out all our mattresses! Crabs in the Brks, not good, EVERYBODY GOT THEM, EVERYBODY!
> Even our SSgt!



Lol yeah you can always tell when someone has had them lol they itch just with one mention of the lil buggers. At least they're just bugs not clap or nothing!


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## tree md (Dec 22, 2010)

Them suckers can jump 25 feet!

I saw one stand flat foot and #### a turkey onetime...


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## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2010)

If there was a penalty for being off-topic, I think all of the last few posters would be in ArboristSite jail. We're so far off topic, I don't think it will ever make it back.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 22, 2010)

Not sure there is much more you can say to the OP that wasn't said in the first dozen or two posts. It was a natural turn to de-rail.
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 22, 2010)

*Yeah, who around these parts want to help somebody get started ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> Not sure there is much more you can say to the OP that wasn't said in the first dozen or two posts. It was a natural turn to de-rail.
> Jeff



So the answer to the OP is a definite NO! Shucks, we might have to compete with them someday!


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 22, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> So the answer to the OP is a definite NO! Shucks, we might have to compete with them someday!



Aw, come on man, Remember I am abrasive yet sensitive! I am trying to pick the right foot to engage with you with. The answer is not No! The OP can do what ever he want's. He asked a question and got feedback. A couple hundred of post's for his feedback and you think we should expand?? OK. You start.
Jeff


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## the Aerialist (Dec 22, 2010)

*Oh, don't get me started ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> Aw, come on man, Remember I am abrasive yet sensitive! I am trying to pick the right foot to engage with you with. The answer is not No! The OP can do what ever he want's. He asked a question and got feedback. A couple hundred of post's for his feedback and you think we should expand?? OK. You start.
> Jeff




But since we've already kissed and made up Jeff, and are now best buds ~ OK I'll start.

The comment wasn't actually directed at you Jeff, I'm (_now_) sure you are OK and I do have a lot of respect for someone who has been in this business for 33 years. 

Darwins law gets rid of the incompetents real fast in this work. I've seen it, as I'm sure most of you have. It's just that every "newbee" isn't incompetent, although some are I'm sure. Every newbee is inexperienced though.

I guess it's a matter of trial by fire, but no matter how "hot" (_and bothered_?) it gets on this, or any other message board, it's nothing compared to the fire one can jump into from a tree.

But you have to ask yourself (_not you specifically Jeff, all of us climbers_). Is the heat we direct to new members designed to save them, or is it to save ourselves. By that I mean our egos or our standing in the pecking order of the gang here?

I've got an idea Jeff, let's count the posts in this thread that are positive, encouraging, comments, or even positive discouraging comments. (_Dave Murphy gave me one, and it reached me far more deeply than all the others_) Divide those into the total number of comments and BINGO ~ you have your Signal to Noise ratio of this board. I'd say that there's a pretty small percentage of signal, not nearly enough to be heard over the noise.

How much better of a climber would I be today if I would have been able to benefit from the wealth of knowledge about climbing that resides on this board when I got started oh so many years ago, or even three years ago?

Someone else take a turn now.


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## treeslayer (Dec 22, 2010)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Someone else take a turn now.



I would, but your sally ass has me on ignore.:hmm3grin2orange:

you'll fade away.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 23, 2010)

*I Ignore No One ...*



treeslayer said:


> I would, but your sally ass has me on ignore.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> you'll fade away.



"Sally Ass" my Ass. Once I found out that this was *Fight Club* for tree workers I saw that ignoring people would be like running away from a fight. So now I give everyone a fair shot.

I believe I said my only way out now is on my shield, feet first.

Anybody want to fight about personal computers?

(_posted from my iPad_)


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## tree MDS (Dec 23, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> I would, but your sally ass has me on ignore.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> you'll fade away.



Ignore.. that ranks right up there with that gay snitcher button over there.. 

Help me mommy!


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## treeslayer (Dec 23, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Ignore.. that ranks right up there with that gay snitcher button over there..
> 
> Help me mommy!




Make him go away!!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## tree MDS (Dec 23, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> Make him go away!!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:



Lol! I remember way back as early as the third grade, we had a "gang". we would hide out in this juniper bush, with a hollowed inside and pop out and beat the crap out of the nerds if they got too close.. fun times! :chainsawguy:


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## ropensaddle (Dec 23, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Lol! I remember way back as early as the third grade, we had a "gang". we would hide out in this juniper bush, with a hollowed inside and pop out and beat the crap out of the nerds if they got too close.. fun times! :chainsawguy:



Now their the ceo's getting new Porsche faster than they change ladies lol.

PS: Ole rope did not need no gang though bro.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 23, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Now their the ceo's getting new Porsche faster than they change ladies lol.



That's like me, 'cept I never change ladies or Porsches. lol


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## ropensaddle (Dec 23, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> That's like me, 'cept I never change ladies or Porsches. lol



Ceo too I want my bonus


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## swyman (Dec 23, 2010)

"J&S Tree Service" is the name. Have tons of work to do, business cards, advertising, looking for equipment....... Thanks to all for your valuable input even though I got a little pissed. Sitting in the shop now having a cold one in front of the fire wondering what the future will bring. This has really turned out to be a very entertaining thread! Keep going and I'll let you guys know how I'm doing from time to time!


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## tree md (Dec 23, 2010)

Very creative name... That's catchy!!!

Best of luck!


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## swyman (Dec 23, 2010)

tree md said:


> Very creative name... That's catchy!!!
> 
> Best of luck!



Thanks for the added sarcasim! I was going to do Flying Squirrels and have a picture of a squirrel flying through the air with a chainsaw but decided to keep it simple.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 24, 2010)

*Good luck ~ and keep us posted ..*



swyman said:


> "J&S Tree Service" is the name. Have tons of work to do, business cards, advertising, looking for equipment....... Thanks to all for your valuable input even though I got a little pissed. Sitting in the shop now having a cold one in front of the fire wondering what the future will bring. This has really turned out to be a very entertaining thread! Keep going and I'll let you guys know how I'm doing from time to time!



Actually swyman it was the abuse being heaped on you that set my trigger point on hair pull and got me to jump all over Jeff's comment.

I see now that it is mostly great advice. The dangers of this work make discouragement the first and best advice one can get when starting out. You have to be determined and willing to learn to survive in this occupation, both in a business and personal sense.

The best thing you can do is start looking for is an expert climber. Watch and learn from him. That is what I did after a very scary start in this business. Now I'm looking for another one as my climbing days are numbered.


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## the Aerialist (Dec 25, 2010)

*Merry christmas all !!!*



TreeCo said:


> Well now.....isn't that special!
> 
> Good post AA.



I'm sitting in the Airport (PIT) waiting for a box of "eyeballs" to take across town so I thought I'd take the time to say happy Xmas. you must be working too this day. Gotta go my box just depose ...


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## tree md (Dec 25, 2010)

Last time I was in Pittsburgh was Christmas of 2000. I was layed over for about 4 hours... Got a voucher to eat supper in the airport... Had one of the best fish sandwiches I ever ate and a few frosty Bud draughts... 

Merry Christmas all!


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## Cletis Oaks (Dec 26, 2010)

swyman said:


> I am a millwright by trade and have cut and split firewood all my life. I have not however, done any tree climbing but am tossing around the idea of getting a climbing kit. I assume the one with spikes would be the one to get although I like the rope climbing gear and have done some but I don't think I could cut down a tree with that method. I have a coach from a guy that was in the business and he says I would get plenty of work as long as I'm in the YP. Also he told me to go around and give quotes to people that have dead trees to be removed or leave in mailbox if not home. I still am clueless on finding help?



Wo! Be carefull with that one the trees core is probabley knot their atall. If your using a boom truck ok, for your own saftey well? Gett a cordless drill and check for depth of live trunk with spikes @ ten foot intervals. If your new @ this kind of work people wil respect your care of aproaching the situation of a dead tree (odds are they have aproached a profesional service and have gotten a bid they did not care to pay for) if you think your hot #### do it. Your best odds Mr. is to go to city hall and gett a permit to gett rid of fellin trees on public propety youl have your heatn wood and youl develop a relationship with the powers that be in your local gov.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 27, 2010)

opcorn:


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## swyman (Jul 2, 2011)

Well fellas I bit the bullet back in April, found a real nice 97 International forestry unit and a 02 Bandit 250 Xp. I was laid off from MDOT in mid april and started cutting through may and was running out of jobs and was picked up for a maintenance position at a local Chrysler engine plant. I like doing trees more than I ever thought I wood! (pun intended) I just have not had enough work to have as a sole means of income at this point. Now I have a worry free business since I have a check coming every friday. I work afternoons tues-sat so I get a full day in on monday and 4-5 hours everyday of the week. Advertising in the local papers have not paid off since 98% of my work has been from word of mouth and people stopping while I'm doing jobs. The bobcat and trailer thing is working so-so for hauling logs, I think a prentice loader is a must, I make to many trips through yards to get loaded. Also stump grinding has been a nightmare. I thought I could charge the extra and pay a local guy that it's all he does but has been a real burden for me. Customers keep calling me to ask when their stumps are going to get ground and the guy I have doing it just goes when he feels like it. So now I just hand out his card instead of trying to make it happen myself. I will either buy a grinder or prentice next and am leaning more on the prentice just for speed but need to pay the chipper off first. I also need to decide on a big saw. So far I am operating with only a 200T and a 460 with 20" & 32" bars and is a pain in the ass. Want a 48" bar but everyone says the 880 is a POS and that a 660 will run better and a local tree guy that I have become great friends with uses a 3120XP with a 48 and says it's a great saw. I searched on here for comparison and you get back to the chevy vs ford thing. I just want something to perform, use Stihl because I have a local dealer but I really don't care. I have been able to make money and really enjoy the adventure and challenge that each job poses. THe exercise is great and I really feel good after a 13hr day with no breaks. I have had steady work and bidding is comparative to everyone else in my area. My new friend has been at it 3 years and is 30 jobs in the hole and actually started sending people my way and all with no advetising. He just does local stuff but I would like to hit the bigger markets, mainly Toledo, OH since I am 10 miles away. Not sure best approach, advertise in paper there or yellowpages. The fellow I bought my truck from said he really took off when he started a AT&T yellowpage ad. Everyone else I talked to said don't waste your money. I have not started a paper ad there because I thought I would wait till I get caught up but so far I always have 2-8 jobs to do. Any extra advice would be great, I want to get more educated in the business and work towards becoming a certified arborist, none of my area competitors are plus if I going to do something I want to know everything I can. Just thought I would give an update and things could not be better. If there is anyone in the area, would like to share stories over a couple Miller Lites!


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