# MS461 demo



## Tree Sling'r (Feb 26, 2011)

So some perks about living and working out here is that we get to demo much of the new Stihl products and report back to our Stihl rep (Chuck) from VA. The latest was the MS461.
I ran it a couple of days (It really pained me to run a stock saw), and for all 460 fans the newer model won't let you down. The low end is impressive even in stock form. Although it looks a bit different, all but 9 parts are the same. We gave the saw back the other day, the rep will take it back to the factory, with our feedback as well as others and saw performance, changes may be made. Anyway here are some pics.

later, Jasha.


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## bcorradi (Feb 26, 2011)

Very cool..thanks for the update and the review.


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## DarkTimber (Feb 26, 2011)

Good looking saw dosen't look too much diffrent than a 460


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## Andyshine77 (Feb 26, 2011)

Just a guess here, but it looks like they just put a strato top end on a 460. Is it a strato saw? Spring AV?

Thanks for posting Jasha.


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## sgrizz (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks treeslingr for shareing this also. I had a 460 ( used) awhile ago and didnt like the vibes on it. I am looking foward to more information on this 461 .


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## ChrisF (Feb 26, 2011)

I need one of those.


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## SawTroll (Feb 26, 2011)

Either they have learned something from Husky and the 372xpXT, or this is a :msp_laugh::msp_laugh:


:confused2:


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## ChrisF (Feb 26, 2011)

SawTroll said:


> they have learned something from Husky and the 372xpXT


 
I was thinking something like that as well.

Not a bad thing though, making good stuff better is always preferable to trying to reinvent the wheel.

(Also, hey there in the cold North!)


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## wigglesworth (Feb 26, 2011)

I like it.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 26, 2011)

SawTroll said:


> Either they have learned something from Husky and the 372xpXT, or this is a :msp_laugh::msp_laugh:
> 
> 
> :confused2:


you been drinking your bath water again troll??????? go ahead tell us how it is 3 ounce heavier,it doesn't balance sideways,they stole this whole design from husky.........on&on&on&on. if you actually ran these saws a tenth of the time that you read the specs off to us,your b.s. might mean something. it is a stihl,and it will outsell any husky. we like stihl here,stihl doesn't build sewing machines,they dont buy out 15 other junk companies to get 1 good line,they dont build 15 other products,plus ***. they build saws,the best in the world,thats why they are #1,and always will be #1. now,go out and buy the best saw money can buy,and it will put a smile on your face every time you run it. you won't have to read specs any more,you will finally have some real world experience........hehehehehe just messing w/ya!!!!!!!!!!!


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 26, 2011)

filter looks like an improvement,maybe after struggling with the 441 so much they wont do a complete redesign...........


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## forestryworks (Feb 26, 2011)

Nice, thanks for sharing Jasha.


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (Feb 26, 2011)

Best looking strato saw that I've seen so far! Just happens to be in line with the best saw ever made IMO!:msp_love:


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## mrgoodkat (Feb 26, 2011)

I asked my dealer today about the 461. He said as far as he knew it would be prolly 2 years at the absolute most nefore it hits the market. I showed him the pics on my phone and we were both happy that they didnt change the shape of the case like they did from the 440 to 441. Hopefully they can slim down the weight of their strato design. Can't wait to see if any hp is gained. Great pics btw


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## mikefunaro (Feb 26, 2011)

Is it still the rubber mount AV or did they go spring with it?


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## epicklein22 (Feb 26, 2011)

mikefunaro said:


> Is it still the rubber mount AV or did they go spring with it?


 
That is my biggest question. There is no doubt that springs are the wave of the future. 

Maybe they could retrofit springs to fit the case, instead of the current rubber mounts? Similar setup to a dolmar 7900 should be attainable. It would neat if they worked on the 460 as well.:biggrin:


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## mikefunaro (Feb 26, 2011)

epicklein22 said:


> That is my biggest question. There is no doubt that springs are the wave of the future.
> 
> Maybe they could retrofit springs to fit the case, instead of the current rubber mounts? Similar setup to a dolmar 7900 should be attainable. It would neat if they worked on the 460 as well.:biggrin:



Yeah I think it would be somewhat difficult to get the amount of spring travel they typically want on the existing 460 chassis unless they sort of made some more room where they needed it. 

I'm curious because lots of guys that run the stihls with rubber mounts don't complain about it, and instead ##### about the extra travel and inaccuracy they think the springs result in (I dont think that these complaints are necessarily unjustified). 

The EU regs are pushing for the better antivibe, while the US regs are pushing more for better emissions it seems. They've previously been making all new models conscious to both of these needs, but maybe this will be a rubber mounted US only model?

My guess is they had this minimal change model in the works before they knew about the plans of the husky x torque. I mean, it makes sense, at least for the current timber fallers. Maybe the next generation will prefer the whole redesigned saws, but if you love your 372 or your 440/460, the closer the replacement is to it the better, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Oldsawnut (Feb 26, 2011)

OK when you say all but 9 parts are the same are you refering to the 441 or the 460? If 460 looks like they changed enough on the case that it would be hard to make it into a 460..


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## RiverRat2 (Feb 26, 2011)

I like it!!!!:msp_cool:


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## Bill Becker (Feb 26, 2011)

Was the muffler bolted together like the 460 or welded together?


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## dieselram (Feb 26, 2011)

DarkTimber said:


> Good looking saw dosen't look too much diffrent than a 460


 
Thats what I was thinking... I like it... Thanks for sharing...


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## mdavlee (Feb 26, 2011)

It does look like they kept it looking and probably feels just like the 460. It must be a single barrel deal like the 261 and 372xt.


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## woodhaven (Feb 26, 2011)

If that's a new 461 then I've got to get my eyes checked!:msp_blink:


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## SawTroll (Feb 26, 2011)

woodhaven said:


> If that's a new 461 then I've got to get my eyes checked!:msp_blink:


 
I still suspect this thread is a joke, but what do I know????:msp_laugh::msp_laugh:


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## Meadow Beaver (Feb 26, 2011)

I think that saw looks better than the 460. The air filter looks better, is it any good?


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## Andyshine77 (Feb 27, 2011)

How Germany Became the China of Europe - TIME


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## Dennis W. (Feb 27, 2011)

Are their any information about weight and horsepower of this saw?


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## Ambull (Feb 27, 2011)

I see the intake design still stinks. The saw was only run a couple of days, and from all the crap inside it looks like a Husky that has gone a whole season. At least it has a nice filter.







Is it rev limited? Cat muffler? Trim tabs on the carb? Any other EPA B.S. ?
Either way I'm sure Stihl won't lose it's spot at #1.


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## mikefunaro (Feb 27, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> How Germany Became the China of Europe - TIME


 
Nice article, but I think the perspective is wrong. germany was europe's manufacturing powerhouse long before the chinese were up and running the way they are.


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## Tzed250 (Feb 27, 2011)

SawTroll said:


> I still suspect this thread is a joke, but what do I know????:msp_laugh::msp_laugh:


 
Boy and what a joke!!!! How do you explain the new shroud moldings? I know....somebody thought it would be hilarious to make a set of $150,000 dies so they could pull the wool over the guys on Arboristsite....yeah, Thats it!!!!!


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## GA_Boy (Feb 27, 2011)

Tzed250 said:


> Boy and what a joke!!!! How do you explain the new shroud moldings? I know....somebody thought it would be hilarious to make a set of $150,000 dies so they could pull the wool over the guys on Arboristsite....yeah, Thats it!!!!!


 
That's pocket change for Stihl. The 2011 price increases are BS. Just because they made less $ than the previous year doesn't mean they lost money. They still made over 2 Billion euros in profit for 2009. That's 2.75B US.

"Despite the global economic crisis, the revenue generated by the STIHL Group
decreased by only 4.9 percent and amounted to more than 2 billion euros. The
earnings situation was satisfactory despite the decrease in revenue. With an
equity ratio of 65.3 percent, STIHL has a sound financial structure."

http://www.stihl.com/unternehmen/presse/download_reddot/presse/stihl-gb09-e.pdf


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## Tzed250 (Feb 27, 2011)

GA_Boy said:


> That's pocket change for Stihl. The 2011 price increases are BS. Just because they made less $ than the previous year doesn't mean they lost money. They still made over 2 Billion euros in profit for 2009. That's 2.75B US.
> 
> "Despite the global economic crisis, the revenue generated by the STIHL Group
> decreased by only 4.9 percent and amounted to more than 2 billion euros. The
> ...


 
Pocket change or not, No company is gonna blow $150K on a prank...


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## porsche965 (Feb 27, 2011)

The air cleaner is the exact one on my MS441C-M-tronic. And the filter is of the same media as the MS261 and works very well. The durability and build quality of the filter is of automotive standards IMO.

Just think if Stihl could pull out a miracle and the 461 would come out either the same weight or a bit lighter, and with more HP! 

Time to place an order and wait, again.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 27, 2011)

SawTroll said:


> I still suspect this thread is a joke, but what do I know????:msp_laugh::msp_laugh:


 you mean like most of your statements here, like how stihl copies husky on everything. or how a saw is 2.8 ozs. heavier,or how it does, or does not balance sideways. are you that concerned stihl has a superior product,oh i forgot. unless it is a 346xp supersaw,that falls over every time you set it down it is junk. stop reading us your "facts" and go run a stihl,you will have something to post about then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mikefunaro (Feb 27, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> you mean like most of your statements here, like how stihl copies husky on everything. or how a saw is 2.8 ozs. heavier,or how it does, or does not balance sideways. are you that concerned stihl has a superior product,oh i forgot. unless it is a 346xp supersaw,that falls over every time you set it down it is junk. stop reading us your "facts" and go run a stihl,you will have something to post about then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Bro-chief, that's his MO, just like yours is to make claims of running lots of prototypes of which you cannot present photos. People have left you alone about this of late, so maybe you should do the same.


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## ChrisF (Feb 27, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> you mean like most of your statements here, like how stihl copies husky on everything. or how a saw is 2.8 ozs. heavier,or how it does, or does not balance sideways. are you that concerned stihl has a superior product,oh i forgot. unless it is a 346xp supersaw,that falls over every time you set it down it is junk. stop reading us your "facts" and go run a stihl,you will have something to post about then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 

Oh snap, you sure put him in his place!


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 27, 2011)

mikefunaro said:


> Bro-chief, that's his MO, just like yours is to make claims of running lots of prototypes of which you cannot present photos. People have left you alone about this of late, so maybe you should do the same.


 what is a bro cheif? which would you like pics of ? pre-pro 362 and my 261 among others are on the bench today as matter of fact. i would love to snap some pics and send them to you,all i need is a phone # and you will have pics. i have nothing to hide from anyone here. i simply choose not to make a documentary of every chainsaw event in my life............bro chief? what is considered lots of claims? 2? 362 & 261,both were available to the public exactly when i said they would be,were they not?????????????


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 27, 2011)

The saw has the rubber mounts. One of our comments of input was a possible spring mount system. The muffler was fitted with the 440/460 dual port, so obviously a two piece. It is a 77cc saw, not sure about the weight.
In May we are supposed to get the same saw with whatever changes made, as well as some of the new 660s, 661s whatever they are going to call them. Evidently there are very little changes to the 660, they are supposedly using their EPA credits on that saw.

To clarify the 461 had over 100 hours on it, I just ran it a couple of days. The intake and air system are actually good.

Pretty much all I know, funny how there are always skeptics - oh well.


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## 1steve (Feb 27, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> The saw has the rubber mounts. One of our comments of input was a possible spring mount system. The muffler was fitted with the 440/460 dual port, so obviously a two piece. It is a 77cc saw, not sure about the weight.
> In May we are supposed to get the same saw with whatever changes made, as well as some of the new 660s, 661s whatever they are going to call them. Evidently there are very little changes to the 660, they are supposedly using their EPA credits on that saw.
> 
> To clarify the 461 had over 100 hours on it, I just ran it a couple of days. The intake and air system are actually good.
> ...


 
Thanks for posting its well appreciated


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## ChrisF (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks for sharing, I don't think I've been this excited about a new saw being in the works before.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 27, 2011)

tree sling'r said:


> the saw has the rubber mounts. One of our comments of input was a possible spring mount system. The muffler was fitted with the 440/460 dual port, so obviously a two piece. It is a 77cc saw, not sure about the weight.
> In may we are supposed to get the same saw with whatever changes made, as well as some of the new 660s, 661s whatever they are going to call them. Evidently there are very little changes to the 660, they are supposedly using their epa credits on that saw.
> 
> To clarify the 461 had over 100 hours on it, i just ran it a couple of days. The intake and air system are actually good.
> ...


well stated thanks,cant wait for the new "big" saws.......


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## Stihl-Pioneer (Feb 27, 2011)

I personally would have thought that stihl would basically used the 441 platform and made whatever little changes as possible to make it work.


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## mikefunaro (Feb 27, 2011)

@Tree Sling'r

Did you guys say that you wanted spring AV? Are people mixed on it?


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 27, 2011)

Stihl-Pioneer said:


> I personally would have thought that stihl would basically used the 441 platform and made whatever little changes as possible to make it work.


 i think stihl has learned a thing or about the ms441. first and foremost,people do not them messing with the 440,460,660 platform. improve it yes,new design from the ground up,no way.........


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## Ambull (Feb 27, 2011)

GA_Boy said:


> That's pocket change for Stihl. The 2011 price increases are BS. Just because they made less $ than the previous year doesn't mean they lost money. They still made over 2 Billion euros in profit for 2009. That's 2.75B US.
> 
> "Despite the global economic crisis, the revenue generated by the STIHL Group
> decreased by only 4.9 percent and amounted to more than 2 billion euros. The
> ...



Why are the price increases BS? This is capitalism, man........ Price is based on what the market will pay, not on cost, and not on profit from last year. Stihl is going to continue to raise prices until they start losing market share. That is how it works.


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## mikefunaro (Feb 27, 2011)

Ambull said:


> Why are the price increases BS? This is capitalism, man........ Price is based on what the market will pay, not on cost, and not on profit from last year. Stihl is going to continue to raise prices until they start losing market share. That is how it works.


 
This is true; and as long as husky and jred prices keep going up, and they all rise together, they will keep on rising. 

Also, surely their prices on raw materials have gone up, plastics are up, metal costs are also up and will continue to go up because gas and oil is on the rise. 

They're going to try to make the same amount of money they have been or more on what they sell. They're not going to work to keep prices where they are until they barely break even. 

It's like the Gap. That polo shirt didn't cost anywhere near $30 to make, but they're going to charge what people will pay.


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## Andyshine77 (Feb 27, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> i think stihl has learned a thing or about the ms441. first and foremost,people do not them messing with the 440,460,660 platform. improve it yes,new design from the ground up,no way.........


 
Stihl design the 440,460,660 so why cant they design a new saw?? sorry but that just doesn't make sense.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 27, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> Stihl design the 440,460,660 so why cant they design a new saw?? sorry but that just doesn't make sense.


 what i am saying is,i think you will see an improved version in the 461,661. not a clean slate design as we saw with the 441. i would be willing to bet that the final 461 we see,will be very similar to the one in the pics in this post.


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 27, 2011)

mikefunaro said:


> @Tree Sling'r
> 
> Did you guys say that you wanted spring AV? Are people mixed on it?


 
The spring mound saws are so much smoother to run. My hand never ached when I ran the Huskies. And I run extremely smooth and properly ground chains. For the average sawyer the rubber mount may not matter, but after years of running a saw for a living I can appreciate a smoother saw.


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## Meadow Beaver (Feb 27, 2011)

Jasha, is the 661 or whatever it will be in the works?


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 27, 2011)

Meadow Beaver said:


> Jasha, is the 661 or whatever it will be in the works?


 
I think so, supposedly our dealer is going to get 6 of them in May and disperse them as demos.


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## mikefunaro (Feb 27, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> The spring mound saws are so much smoother to run. My hand never ached when I ran the Huskies. And I run extremely smooth and properly ground chains. For the average sawyer the rubber mount may not matter, but after years of running a saw for a living I can appreciate a smoother saw.



I'm really curious what this means--if there's going to be different saws in the US and europe or something to that effect. Because basically as the rules are written now, I think per EU work standard you can only run a ms 460 or 660 for like 4 hours per day before you're in the red exposure limit area.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you for sharing, looks like a nice improvement.


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## Jacob J. (Feb 28, 2011)

epicklein22 said:


> That is my biggest question. There is no doubt that springs are the wave of the future.
> 
> Maybe they could retrofit springs to fit the case, instead of the current rubber mounts? Similar setup to a dolmar 7900 should be attainable. It would neat if they worked on the 460 as well.:biggrin:


 
Husky did something similar way back when on the 281/288. Initially the saw was introduced with rubber mounts and later they made "HD" spring mounts available as a retro-fit. It was the best thing since the plastic falling wedge. I ran 288s in some form off and on for ten years and all of mine had the spring mounts. I agree with Sling'r- towards the tail end of my falling career I ran Huskies exclusively because of the superior anti-vibe. The Stihls took more abuse but the Huskies were more comfortable on my old-man hands.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Feb 28, 2011)

mikefunaro said:


> i'm really curious what this means--if there's going to be different saws in the us and europe or something to that effect. Because basically as the rules are written now, i think per eu work standard you can only run a ms 460 or 660 for like 4 hours per day before you're in the red exposure limit area.


 there always have been different spec saws for each market.........


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## SawTroll (Feb 28, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> i think stihl has learned a thing or about the ms441. first and foremost,people do not them messing with the 440,460,660 platform. improve it yes,new design from the ground up,no way.........



Yes, it sure looks like they have learned something! 







It is a pity they didn't implement that learning on the recent smaller saws.....


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## SawTroll (Feb 28, 2011)

mikefunaro said:


> ...... I think per EU work standard you can only run a ms 460 or 660 for like 4 hours per day before you're in the red exposure limit area.



I don't know the details, but I remember from a German saw forum that the PS-7900 was in trouble with the vibe rules (pro use) in Germany some years ago, while the MS460 was better off at that point. I have not followed the issue after that, so I don't know the current situation.


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (Feb 28, 2011)

Did they give a HP spec slinger or did it feel like a little more than a stock 460? (although I know stock saws are not your cup of tea)


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## ms290 (Feb 28, 2011)

id be willing to trade a few bigger saws for one of them thats new. whos game?


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## RiverRat2 (Feb 28, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> To clarify the 461 had over 100 hours on it, I just ran it a couple of days. The intake and air system are actually good.
> 
> Pretty much all I know, *funny how there are always skeptics - oh well*.



And always will be!!!!!


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## SawTroll (Feb 28, 2011)

RiverRat2 said:


> And always will be!!!!!



There have been jokes about new models in the past.....:wink2:


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## Tree Sling'r (Feb 28, 2011)

ms460woodchuck said:


> Did they give a HP spec slinger or did it feel like a little more than a stock 460? (although I know stock saws are not your cup of tea)


 
Not sure about the HP, it was 77cc. I was impressed with the low end for a stocker though. The high end lacked, but that would be easily fixed.


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## Andyshine77 (Mar 1, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Not sure about the HP, it was 77cc. I was impressed with the low end for a stocker though. The high end lacked, but that would be easily fixed.


 
Good to hear it has low end, like you said it's pretty easy to get more rpm's.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 12, 2011)

any more news on the 461 and 661 ?


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## jeeptj19992001 (Mar 12, 2011)

Tzed250 said:


> Boy and what a joke!!!! How do you explain the new shroud moldings? I know....somebody thought it would be hilarious to make a set of $150,000 dies so they could pull the wool over the guys on Arboristsite....yeah, Thats it!!!!!



how to you explain all the paint missing from the handle?


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## jeeptj19992001 (Mar 12, 2011)

SawTroll said:


> There have been jokes about new models in the past.....:wink2:



seems that stihl can not keep paint on their handles either


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## mikefunaro (Mar 12, 2011)

jeeptj19992001 said:


> seems that stihl can not keep paint on their handles either


 
They just need to make some black bar paint.


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## porsche965 (Mar 12, 2011)

With the release of the MS461 and the "hopeful" MS440 this year, this will be a really big year for Stihl, at least for me. My order is sitting at the Dealer for a couple of each when they hit.


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## Jtheo (Mar 12, 2011)

mikefunaro said:


> Bro-chief, that's his MO, just like yours is to make claims of running lots of prototypes of which you cannot present photos. People have left you alone about this of late, so maybe you should do the same.



I am going to second you on this Mike.

:agree2::agree2:


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## Jtheo (Mar 12, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> you mean like most of your statements here, like how stihl copies husky on everything. or how a saw is 2.8 ozs. heavier,or how it does, or does not balance sideways. are you that concerned stihl has a superior product,oh i forgot. unless it is a 346xp supersaw,that falls over every time you set it down it is junk. stop reading us your "facts" and go run a stihl,you will have something to post about then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
We can do without this crap.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Mar 12, 2011)

Jtheo said:


> We can do without this crap.


 we can do w/o yours as well.....................i agree i agree i agree.........


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## SawTroll (Mar 13, 2011)

jeeptj19992001 said:


> seems that stihl can not keep paint on their handles either



Doesn't really matter, but it surely contributed to my first post here.....


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## MS390 (Mar 16, 2011)

*are they for sale??*

I think that I have found one on german ebay!!!

the guy has wrote that it is a 440/460

STIHL Motorsäge MS 440 / 460 bei eBay.de: Forsttechnik (endet 19.03.11 21:29:31 MEZ)


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## Tree Sling'r (Mar 16, 2011)

jeeptj19992001 said:


> how to you explain all the paint missing from the handle?


 
This saw had over 100 hours before I got and rode around in the back of picks ups the entire time. If missing paint is your reason for ignorance then maybe you should stop huffing it.


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## SawTroll (Mar 16, 2011)

MS390 said:


> I think that I have found one on german ebay!!!
> 
> the guy has wrote that it is a 440/460
> 
> STIHL Motorsäge MS 440 / 460 bei eBay.de: Forsttechnik (endet 19.03.11 21:29:31 MEZ)


 
Something is "fishy" with that ad, looks like he doesn't know which model the saw is, and just refere to what it says on the box? :msp_confused:

Another stolen prototype?


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## MS390 (Mar 16, 2011)

couldn´t agree more,smells off thief


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Mar 16, 2011)

ms390 said:


> couldn´t agree more,smells off thief


 the saws are to be available here within 6 weeks or so. There is a real good chance the are already for sale overseas. They may not show up on the websight right away. I really doubt it is a stolen prototype,that is new in the box. The test models and prototypes are not typically "in boxes".


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## wyk (Mar 16, 2011)

MS390 said:


> I think that I have found one on german ebay!!!
> 
> the guy has wrote that it is a 440/460
> 
> STIHL Motorsäge MS 440 / 460 bei eBay.de: Forsttechnik (endet 19.03.11 21:29:31 MEZ)


 
The 440 seems to have not left a lot of markets. I have seen them for sale in Ireland. Let me see if I can find the guys web site...

Ah, here it is:

East Brothers Machinery

The US isn't the end all, be all, folks. There are a vast array of other markets for chainsaws. However, I am finding we do have a lot more huge trees that need felling compared to other 1st world markets, with the exception of Australia and SA. Australia is 1st world now, right, MCW and Aussie1?  Sorta difficult to tell by your photos...


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Mar 16, 2011)

Not much in the way of real big trees left in this area. A 25" saw is nice,but we rarly need over a 20' bar here.


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## Anthony_Va. (Mar 16, 2011)

jeeptj19992001 said:


> how to you explain all the paint missing from the handle?


 
Some people actually use their saws mang. Maybe you need to use yours a little more, at least break them in. :msp_rolleyes:


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## wyk (Mar 16, 2011)

Anthony_Va. said:


> Some people actually use their saws mang. Maybe you need to use yours a little more, at least break them in. :msp_rolleyes:


 
Hey, now. Play nice.

As for big trees, I guess it does depend on where you are. I have a 90 foot tall Ponderosa by the house that was planted not long ago, and felled a 3' DBH Fir last weekend on a property that has half a dozen 4-5' wide Firs at the entrance.


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## AUSSIE1 (Mar 16, 2011)

wyk said:


> The 440 seems to have not left a lot of markets. I have seen them for sale in Ireland. Let me see if I can find the guys web site...
> 
> Ah, here it is:
> 
> ...


 
Yeah they can get big in Nth East Victoria......hardwood!


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## Anthony_Va. (Mar 16, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not much in the way of real big trees left in this area. A 25" saw is nice,but we rarly need over a 20' bar here.


 
There's still plenty of big timber around my parts. :msp_thumbup:

The big Poplars are everywhere. They get huge. Also big Oaks and Maples. Cherry and Ashe trees get to a good size around here also.

Plenty of excuses to wear a big bar. :hmm3grin2orange::msp_thumbup:


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## wyk (Mar 16, 2011)

Is that you taking a bathroom break?



AUSSIE1 said:


> Yeah they can get big in Nth East Victoria......hardwood!


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## AUSSIE1 (Mar 17, 2011)

wyk said:


> Is that you taking a bathroom break?


 
No that's a silly mate with his hands in his pockets as usual!


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 28, 2011)

So is this 461 and 661 strato ?, M Tronic controlled ?,rev limmited ?,cat muff ? and are they modd, porttable ?.

If ya can answer all these ya must work at Stihl.


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## Cedar Ed (Apr 28, 2011)

The ms460 is a good saw.A 461 would be more costly,is it worth it?:msp_unsure:


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## FATGUY (May 23, 2011)

bump, any updates?


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## Tree Sling'r (May 23, 2011)

FATGUY said:


> bump, any updates?


 
Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...


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## SawTroll (May 23, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...



No problems when Spike posted pics of his pre-production 560xps, and let a lot of people use them at GTGs etc - but I am not really surpriced that Stihl did mind....:msp_rolleyes:


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## STEVEGODSEYJR (May 23, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...


 
that sucks!!!


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## Anthony_Va. (May 23, 2011)

STEVEGODSEYJR said:


> that sucks!!!


 
I agree, thats some BS!

And just for posting pics.  You would think they would like the advertising. Theres alot of things that Stihl does that erks the helloutta me. Makes me want to jump to the darkside sometimes.


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## SawTroll (May 23, 2011)

STEVEGODSEYJR said:


> that sucks!!!


 
Stihl is very "private" about info that they didn't provide themselves.....:msp_sneaky:


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## Meadow Beaver (May 23, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...


 
Really? WTF

If Stihl doesn't have people demo their saws how will they know if they're any good or not? :msp_confused:


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## dingeryote (May 24, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...


 

Well...that kinda sucks.

Maybe they shoulda told ya not to share any pics, before getting ##### cramps over it.



Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## tdi-rick (May 24, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...


 

Bugger.

As Dinger said, they should have made you aware of any confidentiality crap prior to your use.


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## Stihlman441 (May 24, 2011)

You would think that Stihl is getting free exposure of a new model and get the interest going early,the new models have got a lot of people talking which cant be bad can it.


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## David (saltas) (May 24, 2011)

*industrial espionage*

Stihl dont want sawtroll reporting into husky about their uber saw


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## mdavlee (May 24, 2011)

That sucks Jasha. Dave K has pictures of a new 461 that he has over the pond in his mini gtg thread.


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## dave k (May 24, 2011)

Yes it's the unfair way it works. Even if they get good press companys often have this policy. Some years ago whilst serving in HMF we had on loan two Norton Wankel engined bikes on test from the RAF and the press had been trying to get a test for around two years but no go from Norton, anyway one of the guy's was out on patrol where we were stationed in London decided to call into a bike shop and to cut a long story short he allowed a guy to ride the bike to say the manure hit the fan would be an undersatement when SuperBike mag ran the world exclusive test of a Norton Wankel !! The report was very good but that didn't stop the guy almost being discharged and the RAF loosing there test fleet. 
It was a very unassuming post by Jasha a couple of pics and no real tech info only that it ran well, so yes in this case they are being a bit snotty with a guy who of all guy's here knows his stuff, the sort of guy they need on there side.


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## Gologit (May 24, 2011)

dave k said:


> Yes it's the unfair way it works. Even if they get good press companys often have this policy. Some years ago whilst serving in HMF we had on loan two Norton Wankel engined bikes on test from the RAF and the press had been trying to get a test for around two years but no go from Norton, anyway one of the guy's was out on patrol where we were stationed in London decided to call into a bike shop and to cut a long story short he allowed a guy to ride the bike to say the manure hit the fan would be an undersatement when SuperBike mag ran the world exclusive test of a Norton Wankel !! The report was very good but that didn't stop the guy almost being discharged and the RAF loosing there test fleet.
> It was a very unassuming post by Jasha a couple of pics and no real tech info only that it ran well, so yes in this case they are being a bit snotty with a guy who of all guy's here knows his stuff, the sort of guy they need on there side.


 

Well said.


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## CentaurG2 (May 24, 2011)

All is verboten in the land of stihl! No IPLs, no online parts, no internet sales and no foolin’. Gots to love that stihl.


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## SawTroll (May 24, 2011)

CentaurG2 said:


> All is verboten in the land of stihl! No IPLs, no online parts, no internet sales and no foolin’. Gots to love that stihl.


 

Sad but true!


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## henryfaber (Oct 29, 2011)

*except*

paying a lot more than the rest of the world for the same product :hmm3grin2orange:


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## splitpost (Oct 29, 2011)

henryfaber said:


> paying a lot more than the rest of the world for the same product :hmm3grin2orange:


 
That's a given


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## MattCrowe (Oct 29, 2011)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Evidently it was a bad idea for me to post pics, no more demos, ever...



Your Kidding, ahh well their loss... Funny how after two decades of Stihl saws i now no longer (other than a freebie broken 46) own one, converted myself to Husky not quiet a month ago, I was wondering if i had made the right choice, but after reading this thread, you need to disregard the product and look at the producer, i made the right choice.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 29, 2011)

centaurg2 said:


> all is verboten in the land of stihl! No ipls, no online parts, no internet sales and no foolin’. Gots to love that stihl.


 gee, the funny thing here is you and a few others here still can't figure out why they are successful as a company. The way things are going for the other orange saw company these days, maybe they should step back and take a few notes.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 29, 2011)

mattcrowe said:


> your kidding, ahh well their loss... Funny how after two decades of stihl saws i now no longer (other than a freebie broken 46) own one, converted myself to husky not quiet a month ago, i was wondering if i had made the right choice, but after reading this thread, you need to disregard the product and look at the producer, i made the right choice.


that's a pretty dumb statement. We all know the guy knows his stuff. But stihl entrusts a handful of people to give feed back on prototypes, not put pics up all over the internet. They obviously know he knows his stuff, or he would not have had the saw to begin with. Stihl has always been tight lipped about new stuff. They do not put unproven equipment on the market, nor do they want the public to know what they are testing...........read here about the 562xp, it really seems to be a success for husky.


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## dingeryote (Oct 29, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> that's a pretty dumb statement. We all know the guy knows his stuff. But stihl entrusts a handful of people to give feed back on prototypes, not put pics up all over the internet. They obviously know he knows his stuff, or he would not have had the saw to begin with. Stihl has always been tight lipped about new stuff. They do not put unproven equipment on the market, nor do they want the public to know what they are testing...........read here about the 562xp, it really seems to be a success for husky.


 
Just wait a couple weeks.
The fact that Husqvarna was quick on the trigger to recall and correct, is not a bad thing in the eyes of anyone older than 12.
Toyota, and GM could learn a thing or two. 

You're just antsy 'cuz the 562 is poised to wipe its Keester with the 362 AND the 441, and weigh about the same as the 261 doing it.

Stihl could have gained a LOT of pre-release exposure and word of mouth advertising, but they chose to keep the 461 hidden.
Poor thing is probably a dog, and they are simply embarrassed to replace the almighty 460 with such a boat anchor.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 30, 2011)

dingeryote said:


> Just wait a couple weeks.
> The fact that Husqvarna was quick on the trigger to recall and correct, is not a bad thing in the eyes of anyone older than 12.
> Toyota, and GM could learn a thing or two.
> 
> ...


lucky for you, i'm only 11. the only thing husky needs to wipe, is the slate clean, and go back to the drawing board and design some saws that aren't cheap plastic p.o.s. i'm sure the 461 will be junk like every other stihl saw. besides that, who yanked your chain? you better behave yourself, or else the next time i send a dozer up M40 through PAW PAW on a lowboy, i will have him stop off and redecorate one of your patch.

BE SAFE THERE DINGER-LINGER.........


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## deye223 (Oct 30, 2011)

*all ready disapointed*

heres me thinking they were going too improve a great saw all they did was make my mind up about which saw i will buy and that is a ms 441, 461 still crap air induction all they did was put a HD2 air filter on it and a diferent pot and this is coming from a stihl fan


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 30, 2011)

deye223 said:


> heres me thinking they were going too improve a great saw all they did was make my mind up about which saw i will buy and that is a ms 441, 461 still crap air induction all they did was put a hd2 air filter on it and a diferent pot and this is coming from a stihl fan


 hold on there, i think you will pleasantly surprised with the end product. That is all i will say for now........


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## deye223 (Oct 30, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> hold on there, i think you will pleasantly surprised with the end product. That is all i will say for now........


 
i don't think so they dropped the ball, imagine a 77cc m tronic which is what it should have been


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 30, 2011)

deye223 said:


> i don't think so they dropped the ball, imagine a 77cc m tronic which is what it should have been


here is what i know for sure about 2 models,461,661. Stihl is being very cautious about how much change they do with saws that loggers/pros use. At least with these 2 models. While i will say you will not see a new from the ground up platform, the changes they are working on, are much needed, and welcomed. You will not be disappointed, as both both test platforms have proven to outperform the models they replace, both in performance and fuel economy. They are using all their clean saw credits to keep a few models in the line-up. My distributer can no-longer order 460's, but they do have several in stock. Now, at the risk of getting my rear-end in a sling, as 2 others have here, that is all i will say. You will see one of these models by spring 2012.


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## dave k (Oct 30, 2011)

All I know is I would take a 461 over a 460 all day long after running mine for the last 7ish months but lets see what the full production 461 looks like before every one gets to excited or starts bemoaning Stihl's lack of ability to produce the goods !


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 30, 2011)

dave k said:


> all i know is i would take a 461 over a 460 all day long after running mine for the last 7ish months but lets see what the full production 461 looks like before every one gets to excited or starts bemoaning stihl's lack of ability to produce the goods !


 aren't you one of the individuals, along with the person who started this thread, that got your hand slapped for the pics./you-tube?


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## dave k (Oct 30, 2011)

Yes which is why I do not post any pics here or go into any tech detail, however , what I do on youtube is a different matter as it has no involvement with AS and after a long conversation with the factory 7ish months ago I suspect Stihl USA were told all they needed to know about how I came to have the saw.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Oct 30, 2011)

dave k said:


> yes which is why i do not post any pics here or go into any tech detail, however , what i do on youtube is a different matter as it has no involvement with as and after a long conversation with the factory 7ish months ago i suspect stihl usa were told all they needed to know about how i came to have the saw.


 funny how most here cannot understand that, they would rather sling mud because they do not have the same opertunities as a few of us do...........


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## dingeryote (Oct 31, 2011)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> lucky for you, i'm only 11. the only thing husky needs to wipe, is the slate clean, and go back to the drawing board and design some saws that aren't cheap plastic p.o.s. i'm sure the 461 will be junk like every other stihl saw. besides that, who yanked your chain? you better behave yourself, or else the next time i send a dozer up M40 through PAW PAW on a lowboy, i will have him stop off and redecorate one of your patch.
> 
> BE SAFE THERE DINGER-LINGER.........


 
LOL!!!

You opened the door whining like a little girl about the 562 recall. Whasamatter precious,can't take return fire? LOL!!

"Cheap plastic POS?" LOL!!! 
You sure you're not 13 and just got held back twice?:hmm3grin2orange:

Looks like Stihl copied the crap out of all that cheap plastic so far.
I hope the 461 is actually worth a spit if the 460 is getting dumped, and hope Stihl manages to get it right.
They gotta have something in the lineup to at least challenge Husky into staying a step ahead.
From the reaction to a little free advertising though, I ain't holding my breath.

You got a Dozer? Cool! Bring it on up any time, as it would be handy for a few stumps around here. A #6 would do, and thanks for offering.
Frost laws are going on shortly though...hurry. 

Is that your guys yuppie green Lawnmower outfit in Paw Paw?


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Jacob J. (Oct 31, 2011)

It may seem like Stihl is being draconian at times regarding new designs, and maybe they are. The big thing they are fighting though is the Chicom knock-offs, and you guys know full well the Chinese are going to knock off the newest designs they can get their hands on. Stihl seems to be the most copied because of the far-reaching brand name.


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## TimberMcPherson (Oct 31, 2011)

Tzed250 said:


> Pocket change or not, No company is gonna blow $150K on a prank...


 
Sure they would

Look at the 338xpt:tongue2:


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## justtools (Mar 4, 2012)

Any more word about the MS461. Release date etc, Thanks


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## RandD (Jun 26, 2012)

available from july on in germany


Motorsäge STIHL MS 461#- Beschaffungsdienst GaLaBau


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## deye223 (Jun 26, 2012)

dose this mean there is a cm model The STIHL MS 461 now in stores is available. Apart from the basic version is a version with electric carburettor and grip heating (VW) available
and i can't believe there is no Pre-separation air filtration like the 261:angry3:


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## deye223 (Jun 26, 2012)

RandD said:


> available from july on in germany
> 
> 
> Motorsäge STIHL MS 461#- Beschaffungsdienst GaLaBau



thanks for the heads up


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## amert (Jun 26, 2012)

RandD said:


> available from july on in germany
> 
> 
> Motorsäge STIHL MS 461#- Beschaffungsdienst GaLaBau



Can anyone translate this. What have they changed?

200t
261
460
041
s10t


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## deye223 (Jun 26, 2012)

Full power for the harvesting of wood - with the STIHL MS 461 presents the Waiblinger motor equipment manufacturers professional users in the forestry and agriculture a tool for extreme loads. The successor to the proven MS 460 scores next to the exemplary low power to weight ratio in particular with his new drive concept:


The chainsaw STIHL MS 461 is powered by a new reduced-consumption and low-emission STIHL 2-MIX engine with 1-in-4-channel technology. (Photo: STIHL)

The 4.4 kW strong STIHL 2-MIX engine with 1-in-4-channel technology awaits you with features such as reduced fuel consumption and low emissions. At the same time the machine characterized by their optimal torque development with resources already in the lower speed range. The standard HD2 air filter ensures that even in dusty conditions always sufficient clean combustion air available is the engine. In addition, other practical details such as the sublime stab bar on the fan housing, new markings on the fuel cap or lose-proof screws on the cover increase the comfort of the new power package for the professional. The STIHL MS 461 is available immediately from retailers. 

Depending on the type of use up to 20% less fuel consumption compared to performance equal STIHL 2 stroke engines of conventional type by the reduced of force steel purge losses and much less harmful exhaust - the advantages with which the drive unit is the new STIHL MS 461 are. STIHL 2-MIX engine with 1-in-4-channel technology meets the strict EU emission limits so easily. But as he scores with his excellent development of torque which gives an enormous power of high-performance saw in the lower speed range. The STIHL MS 461 is the right choice for the precipitation in moderate to strong stocks. With their exemplary low power to weight ratio of just 1.52 kg per kilowatt, it comes with the best conditions for power-conserving delimbing. 

High-performance filter always clean air
The filter system of the new chain saw is designed to meet the needs of professionals. To ensure always the proper use of the chainsaw also in dusty environments, the STIHL MS 461 is equipped with a highly efficient HD2 air filter. He cleans the intake air reliably and scored a long service life thanks to large filter surface. The polyethylene filter material is in finer pores as nonwoven and polyamide filter by up to 70 percent. The air filter achieved the high filter performance of paper filters, but easy to clean with water. The filter is accessible easily and without tools, which reduces the maintenance along with the long cleaning intervals to a minimum. 

Everything in sight thanks to new tags
MS 461 has many details, the forestry professionals facilitate the everyday life: the hood, for example, is equipped with captive security screws. Tags at the tool-free Tankverschlüssen and the housing help to put the gas cap quickly. In addition, the air filter housing is provided to the drop bar with a sublime cut bar. It runs parallel to the symmetry line of the guide rail. For the user this means: he has the cut cutting a perfect help, to control the cut direction. 

The STIHL MS 461 now in stores is available. Apart from the basic version is a version with electric carburettor and grip heating (VW) available. 

More information here:


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## amert (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks deye223, appreciate the help. My German is not quite up to par.

200t
261
460
041
s10t


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## amert (Jun 26, 2012)

Is the electric garb the same thing as m-tronic? 

200t
261
460
041
s10t


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## Stihl-Pioneer (Jun 26, 2012)

According to the specs the power is down from the 460. 4.4kw vs 4.5kw:msp_ohmy:


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## deye223 (Jun 26, 2012)

Stihl-Pioneer said:


> According to the specs the power is down from the 460. 4.4kw vs 4.5kw:msp_ohmy:



the 460 has only ever been 4.4kw in oz and we get the dual port cover as standard

the 046 was 4.5 KW


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## Stihl-Pioneer (Jun 26, 2012)

deye223 said:


> the 460 has only ever been 4.4kw in oz and we get the dual port cover as standard



The US site had 4.5 kw listed, most likely a misprint. I would think they would have to be the same power or have more to keep happy customers.


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## deye223 (Jun 26, 2012)

Stihl-Pioneer said:


> The US site had 4.5 kw listed, most likely a misprint. I would think they would have to be the same power or have more to keep happy customers.



yep agreed i would like to know if this a version with electric carburettor means a c-m model and no air routing is a mistake this is one saw that NEEDS air management like the 441


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## CR500 (Jun 26, 2012)

deye223 said:


> yep agreed i would like to know if this a version with electric carburettor means a c-m model and no air routing is a mistake this is one saw that NEEDS air management like the 441



I don't think the 461 will be a CM unfourtantly as much as I want it to be lol. Here in the states we have some people that do not want to adapt to new technology, like the carb being electronically controlled, spring anti-vibration, & Strato technology. My bet is that Stihl will use the 461 for the guy that believes that he can beat the computer controlled carb, and does not like the idea of using springs to dampen vibration. For those that want a 70cc class saw, there will be 2 types of people in the future, the ones who like the new technology, and the ones that don't 441 CM Vs. 461.


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## deye223 (Jun 26, 2012)

CR500 said:


> I don't think the 461 will be a CM unfourtantly as much as I want it to be lol. Here in the states we have some people that do not want to adapt to new technology, like the carb being electronically controlled, spring anti-vibration, & Strato technology. My bet is that Stihl will use the 461 for the guy that believes that he can beat the computer controlled carb, and does not like the idea of using springs to dampen vibration. For those that want a 70cc class saw, there will be 2 types of people in the future, the ones who like the new technology, and the ones that don't 441 CM Vs. 461.



yep i've been waiting looks like a ported 441C-MR for me


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## SawTroll (Jun 26, 2012)

deye223 said:


> the 460 has only ever been 4.4kw in oz and we get the dual port cover as standard
> 
> the 046 was 4.5 KW



The original 046 was listed at only 4.1 kW/5.6 hp in fact - and I have never seen the 4.5 number on late ones (046 Magnum), only 4.4.


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## SawTroll (Jun 26, 2012)

Stihl-Pioneer said:


> The US site had 4.5 kw listed, *most likely a misprint*. I would think they would have to be the same power or have more to keep happy customers.



Yes, :agree2:


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 26, 2012)

Last I heard the 461 will not be available here for a while, 2013 at the earliest. The 461 looks more like an update than a totally new concept.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 26, 2012)

by the # 461 ,you would think it has similar port shapes to a 361 ,the decomp valve is off to side like one ,not on top like a 460


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 26, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> by the # 461 ,you would think it has similar port shapes to a 361 ,the decomp valve is off to side like one ,not on top like a 460



No it's a strato saw like the 441, so it will be completely different.


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## Anthony_Va. (Jun 26, 2012)

So whats the "1 in 4 channel technology" deal they referred to? Also, what electric carb mean? I thought that may have meant m-tronic but I kinda doubt it. Still lost on the 1 in 4 deal though. 

I think they could do really well with the m-tronic 461. Hopefully it'll come later on, as it did in the 441. If they dont then thats at least one 461 they won't sell. Guess I'll settle for a dolly 7910.


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## splitpost (Jun 26, 2012)

*stihl 661*

http://www.stihl.de/upload/assetmanager/modell_imagefilename/scaled/websize/R-RE661P-D001_p.jpg


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## CR500 (Jun 26, 2012)

deye223 said:


> yep i've been waiting looks like a ported 441C-MR for me



Going back home this weekend, My dealer calls me and says " guess what came in?" It appears that I am now a part of the 441 CM-R club, soon as I get some money it will be getting ported, got a 28 ES Light for her, I did not want another 25 after hearing about this bar lol


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## Officer's Match (Jun 27, 2012)

CR500 said:


> Going back home this weekend, My dealer calls me and says " guess what came in?" It appears that I am now a part of the 441 CM-R club, soon as I get some money it will be getting ported, got a 28 ES Light for her, I did not want another 25 after hearing about this bar lol



You'll love it.


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## saxman (Jun 27, 2012)

I agree, you will love it. It will handle the 28" bar very well

Steve


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## Officer's Match (Jun 27, 2012)

Open up that muffler ASAP - that don't cost anything. Then do the no-bar/no-throttle calibration. Then get a few gallons thru her - it'll be mucho-funno.


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## CR500 (Jun 27, 2012)

Officer's Match said:


> Open up that muffler ASAP - that don't cost anything. Then do the no-bar/no-throttle calibration. Then get a few gallons thru her - it'll be mucho-funno.



Thinking about pulling the screen out, and doing the calibration. I have a cherry stump I can maybe make a few cuts with her lol. With the calibration is it 90 or 60 seconds with the saw running on the start position??


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## Stihlman441 (Jun 27, 2012)

CR500 said:


> Thinking about pulling the screen out, and doing the calibration. I have a cherry stump I can maybe make a few cuts with her lol. With the calibration is it 90 or 60 seconds with the saw running on the start position??



60 seconds,no bar and chain.
By pulling the screen out wont do a real lot,open up the port area behind the screen as far as possible and then you can run screen or not.:smile2:


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## deye223 (Jun 27, 2012)

60


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## imagineero (Jun 27, 2012)

I mostly like the new shape on the 441cm. The air filter is the same HD2 that comes on most of the new bigger stihls, but the way the air is routed makes an enormous difference. I've got that same HD2 filter on my 660, the 660 needs to have the air filter cleaned out twice daily. The 441 needs a light tap out about once a month. They're both used daily in identical conditions. The newer style spring antivibe is excellent, and the mtronic stuff is great. I think thye'll end up leaving the 461 rubber mount and non antivibe to cater to those who prefer the older style. Plus, if they gave it all the new tech it would probably outsell the 441.

One thing I wasn't impressed with on the 441 was the sealed muffler. Or the 8mm nuts that hold it in place. One of the minor things about stihls I've always loved is the very limited number of fasteners. For the most part, there are only a few different types of screws on stihls and they all use the same T27 driver. There are a few rare smaller ones, but they are mostly the exception. I very much enjoyed this over the odd assortment of fasteners that hold other saws together. Shame to see them adding a new style of fastener, and from what it looks like in that 461 photo another new style of fastener on the saw top shroud... which looks to have a flat screwdriver type fastener with the T27 in the middle. Small stuff, but it's nice being able to strip the whole saw down with not much more than a T27 and a scrench.

Shaun


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