# tree help suggestions



## 724ZACK (Mar 23, 2012)

I am new here. Not new to tree cutting but new to the forum, great forum by the way. I am not a pro but weekend tree cutter for firewood and helping friends and family. Now I have an issue with this tree at my house and I know enough about tree cutting to at least know when to ask for advice / help. In short BIG TREE not house damaging but house SMASHING big tree. With lean in the wrong direction. I am thinking I have to go up 45 feet to the last big Y in the tree and tie off take it to the nearest large oak tree (in the right direction) approx. 90 feet away. Attach my snatch block to the tree and then run the line thru the snatch block back to my truck with the 9500k winch on it. Then I can use my high lift to raise myself 25 feet off of the ground est. to the lowest big Y (at this point the tree goes up without the heavy lean and cut her off tree is about 18” – 20” in dia. up there. And is probably just a little taller above the cut than below. I plan on dropping the big tree in my way fist as well as removing all the big limbs that lean towards the house and the lean first. I guess I should have mentioned that also but thought that might go without saying. Then after the big cut to take the top off I would just drop her off about 4’ at a time to the bottom. I have supplied a couple pictures the tree I asking about is in the 1st picture (DSCN6108) the tree in question is the middle tree. In the 2nd picture the (dscn6109) it is the tree on the left this is taken with my back to the house you see in the 1st picture. In the 3rd picture it is the tree on the right. Back to first picture tree in the middle is joined with tree on right but are 2 separate trees that have grown together at the base. The tree is a white oak . The tree I am asking to be cut is oval shaped at the bottom and is 33” across and about 22” deep just above the y where the 2 trees separate. I would like to hear what you guys think. View attachment 230399
View attachment 230400


sorry could not get ppicture 1 i will try latter you reallyneed to see picture 1


----------



## Zale (Mar 23, 2012)

New Castle? My wife is from there. From what you have described, you have all the ingredients for a major F-up. I would suggest you call a professional. Why does it need to come down?


----------



## jefflovstrom (Mar 23, 2012)

If you do it, take a video! This I gotta see!
Jeff


----------



## KarlP (Mar 23, 2012)

Although this is Arborist 101 this sounds like a homeowner kind of question, so I'll give you my homeowner assessment give all the guys with 65' buckets and 12" chippers that could do this job in under 2 hours a good laugh. But if you want the ability to do most hardwoods with less than $1k in equipment I'd go this route.

I would first want to reduce the crown as much as possible from the ground. At least the part on the house side of the center of gravity.

I'd launch a throw line line (Amazon.com: Weaver 12 oz. Throw Weight & Line Combo: Home Improvement) into a high strong crotch with my big shot (Big Shot Line Launcher). I would pull my fairly-strong fairly-slick 5/8" rope (Yale XTC 16-Strand Rigging Line) through the high crotch down to the ground. I would then shoot the throw weight over the lowest branch about 1/3 of the way out from the trunk and use it pull a running bowline around the low branch. Then I'd pull the 5/8" rope slightly tight and tie it off to a nearby tree or a vehicle or something else sturdy. Then I would shoot the throw weight over the same branch right next to the trunk. Then I would pull my chainsaw on a rope (Amazon.com: High Limb CS-48 Rope-and-Chain Saw: Patio, Lawn & Garden modified by shortening the polypro 3-strand rope to about 2' long and attaching 100' of ebayed 1/4" double braid dacron rope to each leg. The 3-strand polypro is too short, too stretchy, and rotates as tension changes.) I then use the chainsaw on a rope and cut the limb off the right way ... with two people standing further apart than the branch is high ... if you follow the directions that come with the saw you'll likely pinch the chain and/or drop the limb on your head. Even doing it this way (supporting the branch 1/3 of the way out and using two people), the rope saw still gets pinched 1% of the time so having a spare on hand is a good idea. After I spend 20-30 minutes setting up the ropes, its another 5-10 minutes of good exercise playing mini-tug-of-war to get through each of those large limbs. Then I gently release tension at pull line anchor point and lower the limb to the ground, chop it up into 10' long brush for the trailer/18" rounds for the wood stove.


A few hours later I'd end up with a trailer full of brush to go to the dump and the one high crotch left. I'd tie the pull rope around this crotch and tie it off TIGHT and far away in the direction I want the tree to fall. Then using the sight marks on my saw and quadruple checking myself, I'd make an open face (70 degree down cut, 20 degree up cut) notch in the tree. I'd then plunge cut into the tree to make most of the back cut leaving a generous hinge and only about 1.5" of strap wood on the back of the tree. I'd then have a helper hang their body weight on the far end of the pull rope to add extra pull, drive two felling wedges into the sides of the back cut, make sure no one has any video cameras running, cut the strap wood, shut off the saw, and run. :msp_scared:

If I'm trying to fall more than 90 degrees from the lean, I'll use my come along (The Wyeth-Scott Co. - portable winches | cable puller | come along winches) instead of just someone's body weight to add additional tension to the pull line. (Be careful using a recovery winch. IMO, too much tension can be just as bad as not enough.) In any case I'll be prepared with two extra wedges to drive straight into the back cut if necessary.

If the tree is rotten or you don't have a sense of adventure, all day, a helper, and a bunch of (positive) experience felling trees that aren't leaning towards the house, THEN don't attempt any of the crazy homeowner stuff I would do. Listen to all the pros who have/are about to either call you a moron or tell you to hire a pro. A small mistake like not leaving enough hinge wood can squish your roof.


----------



## Zale (Mar 23, 2012)

KarlP said:


> Although this is Arborist 101 this sounds like a homeowner kind of question, so I'll give you my homeowner assessment give all the guys with 65' buckets and 12" chippers that could do this job in under 2 hours a good laugh. But if you want the ability to do most hardwoods with less than $1k in equipment I'd go this route.
> 
> I would first want to reduce the crown as much as possible from the ground. At least the part on the house side of the center of gravity.
> 
> ...



You've got to make a video of this process. It would be priceless. I always wondered who actually buys the Chainsaw On A Rope. Now I know. Stay safe.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Mar 23, 2012)

KarlP said:


> Although this is Arborist 101 this sounds like a homeowner kind of question, so I'll give you my homeowner assessment give all the guys with 65' buckets and 12" chippers that could do this job in under 2 hours a good laugh. But if you want the ability to do most hardwoods with less than $1k in equipment I'd go this route.
> 
> I would first want to reduce the crown as much as possible from the ground. At least the part on the house side of the center of gravity.
> 
> ...



WTF?
Jeff


----------



## Kottonwood (Mar 23, 2012)

KarlP said:


> Although this is Arborist 101 this sounds like a homeowner kind of question, so I'll give you my homeowner assessment give all the guys with 65' buckets and 12" chippers that could do this job in under 2 hours a good laugh. But if you want the ability to do most hardwoods with less than $1k in equipment I'd go this route.
> 
> I would first want to reduce the crown as much as possible from the ground. At least the part on the house side of the center of gravity.
> 
> ...





HAHAHA! The right way!? Like a notch and a back cut? Yeah you are much better off with a come along and your walmart rope too. Winches are for suckers.


----------



## 724ZACK (Mar 23, 2012)

The tree needs to come down because

1. The space between the 2 joined trees is growing (which means one or both are leaning more) not good.
2. More little critters such as ants and chipmunks have made the new larger crack their new home and removing them has proved hard than first thought.
3. We lost an even larger tree this time last year 15 feet straight across the drive way. That oak was over 48" thru the middle it fell without hitting anything other than average size crab apple tree. (it was direct hit about 30 feet from the base of the large oak and it literally splinterd it into a million tooth pick size sticks). Me and my 3 year old daughter where here when that happened when it pulled out of the ground and came down it shook everything in the house. Point is i want to take this tree on my terms not mother nature. If it comes on its own there is no good ending.
4. The tree has a lot of dead limbs on it despite a healthy looking trunk and main section. I am much more concerned about the roots. I have 4 more larger trees that all live under 90 feet from these 3 trees. I am not sure the ground around here can continue to support all the trees and the tree i am looking to remove is the only one that can really damage the house if they fall.

I am thankful for all the suggestions. I will not try this until i am 100 percent sure i will get it rite. (i only get one shot at this one) i am leaning towards getting a pro to help or do the job. I have cut trees this large before and had good outcomes had some close calls too. But if you do this long enough you get them all. But hitting a fence in not hitting your house. I have never had to top a tree s big as this one 20 plus feet off of the ground. I will try and get the other picture up tomorrow it will shed some more light on the situation. I would never do this without video proof. I will need the cash afv would pay to help rebuild if i survived both the tree and my wife no very likely one or both would get me if it went wrong. Any pros in the western pa area interrested in lending a hand?


----------



## Tree Pig (Mar 23, 2012)

[video=youtube;qpJTJ5OA4HU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpJTJ5OA4HU[/video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNF1u9xOZv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXbb9EF1ELg&feature=related


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 23, 2012)

One of my favorite Homeowner tree cutting videos. I just love the way she says " That wasn't good"

Rick


----------



## KarlP (Mar 24, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Yeah you are much better off with a come along and your walmart rope too.



Walmart carries XTC now? Good to know. The one I bought from Cutters Choice eight years ago is starting to show some wear. LoL. 

When my pull line is a 5/8 arborist rope with a ~10k lb breaking strength and a ~2k lb working load, I do think I am better off with the come along I linked to (a 30lb cast iron one, rated for dead lifting 6000lbs). I can apply tension very slowly and have a feel for it. 2000lbs of pull should be enough if I have reduced the crown, I'm tied to sturdy crotch 45' off the ground, the lean isn't too bad, and I'm tied off 100' away. What is that in foot pounds of torque of that at the felling cut? I dunno, but its a lot.



> Winches are for suckers.



So why is a homeowner better off using a 9500lb recovery winch with a snatch block at the tree to pre-tension a steel cable pull line before making a back cut in this tree? "Just a little more, I want to make sure this thing goes the direction we want." - sounds like an uncontrolled barber chair waiting to happen to me. I've only considered using mine for one tree ... for about a minute before I told my grandmother which two pros she should call for quotes. 

I am very much aware that the chainsaw on a rope is not a pro tool. It takes way too long to use for a pro to earn a living using one. IMO if he is going to do it himself, I think an amateur is safer reducing the crown in smaller pieces with both feet on ground outside the fall zone, lowering the limbs in a controlled manner using very basic natural crotch rigging, and then using a pull line way up in the tree but without the need for high tension because he has changed the center of gravity of the tree through crown reduction.

I don't think many people would watch that youtube video it showed two people spending 2 hours taking off the three limbs on the house side from the ground, installed a tensioned pull rope high up the tree, cut an open faced notch correctly, used felling wedges, and then left some hinge wood. Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 25, 2012)

Just how are you rigging these branches that are over the house so they don't fall on the house when you cut them from the ground ? My BS detector is ringing so loud that I can barely type.
Rick


----------



## KarlP (Mar 25, 2012)

I run the rope through a crotch above the limbs being removed. Eventually you need one at the top or on the opposite side of the tree. In the case of the OP, he could possibly even use the adjacent tree. No this method doesn't work for every tree, that's why pros with rigging pulley$, bucket truck$$$, and crane$$$$ are sometimes well worth it. I got lucky and found a good one near me without a superiority complex.


----------



## Bomber (Mar 25, 2012)

Whats wrong with a saw chain on a rope?


----------



## Tree Pig (Mar 25, 2012)

Bomber said:


> Whats wrong with a saw chain on a rope?



Well nothing if you have the PRO version like you... that homeowner one is for greenhorns and hacks.


----------



## Bomber (Mar 25, 2012)

They must be using the one tied to the yellow rope from home depot. Not stable braid like mine


----------



## Zale (Mar 25, 2012)

I had my chainsaw on a rope ported and it screams. Though my arms do get tired.


----------



## 724ZACK (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks for all the input! It really helps to let some other ideas in and things i may have missed in thinking about this from one point of view. I have to say i myself have to agree i am weary of using the winch for the stated reason of aplying to much pressure and creating the barber chair. And when your in bucket there are no escape routes. The other side of the coin is just as bad and i think the lesser of the 2 evils is using the winch. If i would not choose a winch to assist. The i run the risk of not having enough pull to assist the tree in going the way i want it to. Which is just as bad as not having enough or worse. Not enough the tree goes the wrong way and again in a bucket no place to go and you have a large tree in your lap 30 feet off the ground and going towards the roof of your house (ok so you have the roof to help break your fall). Yes i know that is not really funny either very serious i know. Using the winch properly by just letting it tip the tree for / assist you, you would have fighting chance by just aplying enough pressure when making the back cut to insure that your back cut kerf gets larger, at which point i would be inclined to use wedge / wedges to finish assisting the tree over. Not the saw or the winch to avoid the chair effect. The other thing that would be how the tree was hitched to the winch. I would be inclined to use shorter 20,000 lb strap wraped 360 degrees around the tree starting with the the middle of the strap of the strap directly as high above the final back cut so that the clevis would join the straps open ends 180 degrees away from the my back cut. So as to not twsist the tree off of the hinge. Any thoughts or suggestion to add to that part. Thanks agin for all the help. I am out of town for work so i have not got more pictures yet but impromise that they will come. The one taken from the right side of the tree with your back to the house will show you more on how the base of the tree leans towards the house harder than it seems in the other pictures. The one i have already posted pretty much sum up the lean the tree has to the left when standing with your back to the house. And how it straightens out to with in about a 5 degree lean just below where i would be topping the tree. It does not go straight up still leans back but not nearly as much.


----------

