# Start my Own Tree Service



## palmersfirewood (Jan 20, 2006)

I am a 16 year old who is very interested in getting into the tree business professionally. I know this is not a business that you can get into overnight. I have a good friend in the business and he has been a tremendous help and allows me to borrow equipment if I need it to do small jobs. I am going to work for him full time when I graduate and now work for him part-time. I was looking for some advice on what I need to eventually start my own business.


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## Koa Man (Jan 20, 2006)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=28182


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## Chronic1 (Jan 20, 2006)

-Find a safe,sober and experienced person to teach you.
-Get that tree book everyone talks about, I have it...it's awesome. Can't remember the name...lol.
-Start as a brush dog, work your way up.
-learn learn learn everything you can
-Be safe
-Be safer
-Did I mention be safe ?


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## palmersfirewood (Jan 20, 2006)

-Find a safe,sober and experienced person to teach you. got that 
-Get that tree book everyone talks about, I have it...it's awesome. Can't remember the name...lol. hard to buy a book without a name 
-Start as a brush dog, work your way up. already there
-learn learn learn everything you can
-Be safe
-Be safer
-Did I mention be safe ?

thanks 

I am looking at the wesspur spur climbing kits to learn how to climb. any thoughts??


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## Chronic1 (Jan 20, 2006)

First, get yourself a good quality saddle. I use the master two. Then get 150 foot of climbing line....I just purchased the new one...what's it called.....24 strand fire or spark......something like that,

Buy two or three double locking caribeeners, I like the Kong grenade gates myself. Sherrill has all this good stuff, my vermeer dealer stocks it.

OK, "the tree climbers companion" book, excellent reference for climbing. I use the split tail method, they say you should master the one used most here in the uSA first.

stand next to a tree, tie into a low branch, start tying a blakes hitch, with stopper knot.....get a feel for the saddle.


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## Chronic1 (Jan 20, 2006)

I used wesspur once, although they were nice people, I find sherrill has more industry knowledge and the web site is much better. I'm not sure what you mean by"wesspur climbing kit".

I have a BS degree in Forestry/plant sciences from a top forestry school. Learn all you can about dendrology, plant sciences.

I was shown how to climb by old school guys who didn't practice safety standards. I started 'cause it was the only job I could find. I supervised 15 asplundh crews after college fffor philadelphia electric, working for a scum sucking consulting firm who wil go unnamed but is still out there and well known.


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## Chronic1 (Jan 20, 2006)

anywho....that was 1990. Did computersin Denver when the industry was hot, made much cash, blew much more. LOL. computers tanked, went back to trees. Started my own corp, no employees. 

I love climbing, the technique, skill and rigors. I love looking at a well trimmed tree. I'm always looking for new advaces, technology to make my job safer and me more productive.

This year I discovered the Pantin, how I ever got along without it I'll never know.


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## Chronic1 (Jan 20, 2006)

Sorry off topic. You need..
(or shoud I say what I use....)
-Steel core work positioning lanyard with a camming device (SP)
150 climbers line (spark)
caribeeners(kong grenade gate)
Helmet-petzl of course
saddle
I use Silky saws, friggin things will cut your arm off if you're not careful'
a couple of loop slings and those easy open caribeeners for redirects
I use Stihl saws exclusively
Vermeer chipper also
safety glasses and ear plugs
spikes gecko
chaps
steel toe boots
forestry helmet

Learn the blakes hitch


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## fmueller (Jan 20, 2006)

[.
-Get that tree book everyone talks about, I have it...it's awesome. Can't remember the name...lol.
- You mean "Tree Climbers Companion"?


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## Chronic1 (Jan 20, 2006)

Yes, much brain cell damage in younger days.


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## Crazy Canuck (Jan 20, 2006)

Judging by your user name I assume its still going on.


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## Crazy Canuck (Jan 20, 2006)

Find some one who is experienced and capable to teach you.

Drag brush, be safe and learn as much as you can. Show initiative and desire. Start out low and slow. Don't buy spikes, learn to climb without them.


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## palmersfirewood (Jan 21, 2006)

Why no spikes?

Wesspur sells a spur climbing kit with spikes, saddle, flipline, bag, and carabiner


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## Koa Man (Jan 21, 2006)

Nothing wrong with spikes on removals, but avoid using them on trims, except almost all of us that trim palms will use spikes for that. No other practical and cost effective way to climb them without it.


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## Redbull (Jan 21, 2006)

I would highly recommend you leave the spikes alone until you are able to move throughout the tree, inside and out, top to bottom, and all the way to the tips. If you can't do this without spikes, you risk being banished to removals only or being considered a hack. Or you can always hire a climber.
A lot of the answers to your questions will differ depending on what level of service you want to provide. Be professional, be courteous, be knowledgable, and have fun.


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## PTS (Jan 21, 2006)

I'm with redbull

When I started my company we seemed to do a lot of trims and very little removal. This worked well because it gave us time to grow as a company. You may find yourself in the same situation and a spur climbing kit is something that you can get later if you need it. Learn how to do trims off of a rope. I think Sherrill has a climbing kit for rope climbing. Check with them. If I remember it correctly that would be a great starter.

Also check your area to see if there are any recreational climbers around. I can't think of a group of people more interested in helping new people learn how to climb. For them it involves having fun and meeting new people. I am sure if you can find a group you will be able to get a great handle on climbing.


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## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

You can climb any tree with spurs, you cannot climb every tree without them, learn both by all means. Probably better for you to become comfortable with a saw in a tree by doing little removals, feels pretty good planted to the tree with long gaffs and a steelcore. I think you are more secure when your feet cannot slip or otherwise move.


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## PTS (Jan 21, 2006)

whats more comfortable than sitting in a saddle where you use no energy and have the ability to kick back and relax when your body isn't use to climbing as apposed to being stuck on your feet. I think learning to climb using spikes is a lot like adding using touch points. If you can cheat using the touch points why learn the math. If you can climb using spikes why learn to climb on a rope besides it is the right thing to do and that it is the national standard and it is the best for the tree.


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## clearance (Jan 21, 2006)

P.T.S. I think you are a decent guy from your past posts but "national standard"?. Like is it in the constitution, backed up by law or what? C'mon, it is probably better for the tree but your comment sort of reminds me when Jehovahs Witness people come to my house and start telling me the bible is THE word. Really? Thou shall not climb with spurs or thou shall be smote......


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## PTS (Jan 21, 2006)

All I am getting at you admitted. It is better for the tree so why not. I have spurs, several of them to be exact but that doesn't mean I put them on everyday. I use them on removals that I can't get the bucket too and even then I may choose not to use them. Spurs are a tool not a necessity. A rope and saddle however is a lifeline. Those spur kits he is talking about is a saddle, spurs, and flipline. And IMO when you are starting out what better way to learn how to do it using a practice that is best for the tree as apposed to getting into the habit of using spurs and transferring the habit over into the prunes causing harm to the trees. I'm not one who says spurs are for hacks. They serve there purpose but when starting out one probably doesn't know what that purpose is.


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## Redbull (Jan 21, 2006)

Clearance, I respect your opinions and knowledge in the area of utility line clearance. Its where I started, so I know whats involved. But, just like pulling overhang from a three phase is not an easy thing to do, neither is the proper diagnosis of a diease and proper execution of the solution. Granted, tree preservation is not as dangerous as line clearance, but we both climb, just to reach different goals. I guess my point is this, we both work on different ideals and work to accomplish different goals. I dont feel like I have any business remarking on line clearance work because I dont do it, and sometimes I feel like new guys might get the wrong ideas by taking your advice to heart whenever the issue of tree preservation is at hand. Please don't take offense, I am not trying to be offensive.


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## clearance (Jan 22, 2006)

Red-well said, you have done line clearance, you have the experience to talk about it. I have been good to some conifers, because I like them but generally I have to be honest and admit I am not the trees best friend. Point taken.


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## Redbull (Jan 22, 2006)

Glad that we're on the same page. Be safe. You do a very dangerous and under aknowledged job and I'm sure you are very good at what you do.


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## rebelman (Jan 22, 2006)

Palmersfirewood-- get a ladder. My forty foot aluminum werner and smaller ones are key for efficient, standard pruning.


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## jeffrockhall (Jan 22, 2006)

i went to arbormaster training, i think there web site is arbormaster.com
it was very informitive, htey teach all the old and new techniques in climbing, rigging and most of all teach safety. be safe dont get fast and sloppy and stay in your abilty it only takes one accident to change your life. try arbormasters they have classes all over the country.


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## Diesel JD (Jan 23, 2006)

A ladder may be helpful, but be very careful...from the stories I've seen here, pruning or doing any type of tree work ona ladder may be more dangerous than climbing...


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## mtvigilante (Jan 23, 2006)

*startup wish list*

i dont' have all this stuff, but use it every day at work:
*HELMET!!!, glasses, ear protection, chaps, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, etc
*2 ton farm or chip truck
*chipper (expensive, but way faster to load up truck)
*boots-i have whites linemans (10"), chippewa (8"-shanks suck for climbers), and a pair of sketchers hiker style steel toe shoes
*saddle -DONT BUY UNTIL YOU TRY MANY DIFFERENT ONES- comfort and fit are key
*climbers-for removals and that impossible junk cottonwood out back
*climbing rope-150' arbor-plex is inexpensive, and stiff, i love it. new england hi-vis is good too..for 40% more money though
*2 in 1 work positioning lanyard w/aluminum snaps (3 strand with prussic)
*rigging rope-dont use your climbing rope
*stihl 020 or 200t-echos belong on the shelf at home depot, and husky small saws suck for balance and power.
*husky 372 or equivilent and a hand blower with rakes and pitchfork for ground cleanup and firewood
*silky hayuchi pole saw-quick and easy way to pull hangers and reach 20' out
*silky zubat or similar hand saw-BEST FOR STARTING OUT! HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE ON TECHNIQUE FIRST
*misc rope snaps and carbiners
*the book
*insurance-hard to get unless you get more than 75% of your income from your business
*life insurance
*learn the prussic knot-better hold IMHO than the blake's hitch-
*get two lenghths of rope and practice knots till you are 18 and can legally climb trees for a living

if you had these things by the time you were 18, you could have them paid off and use all your knowledge that you gained during those years to go out and make some money.


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## mtvigilante (Jan 23, 2006)

*startup wish list*

i dont' have all this stuff, but use it every day at work:
*HELMET!!!, glasses, ear protection, chaps, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, etc
*2 ton farm or chip truck
*chipper (expensive, but way faster to load up truck)
*boots-i have whites linemans (10"), chippewa (8"-shanks suck for climbers), and a pair of sketchers hiker style steel toe shoes
*saddle -DONT BUY UNTIL YOU TRY MANY DIFFERENT ONES- comfort and fit are key
*climbers-for removals and that impossible junk cottonwood out back
*climbing rope-150' arbor-plex is inexpensive, and stiff, i love it. new england hi-vis is good too..for 40% more money though
*2 in 1 work positioning lanyard w/aluminum snaps (3 strand with prussic)
*rigging rope-dont use your climbing rope
*stihl 020 or 200t-echos belong on the shelf at home depot, and husky small saws suck for balance and power.
*husky 372 or equivilent and a hand blower with rakes and pitchfork for ground cleanup and firewood
*silky hayuchi pole saw-quick and easy way to pull hangers and reach 20' out
*silky zubat or similar hand saw-BEST FOR STARTING OUT! HELPS YOU CONCENTRATE ON TECHNIQUE FIRST
*misc rope snaps and carbiners
*the book
*insurance-hard to get unless you get more than 75% of your income from your business
*life insurance
*learn the prussic knot-better hold IMHO than the blake's hitch-
*get two lenghths of rope and practice knots till you are 18 and can legally climb trees for a living

if you had these things by the time you were 18, you could have them paid off and use all your knowledge that you gained during those years to go out and make some money.


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## palmersfirewood (Jan 23, 2006)

Ok i understand why not to use spikes on pruning but the ladder thing I'm not sure about. I have a 1 ton flatbed with 4 foot sides to use as a temporary chiptruck and can borrow a chipper anytime. Is sherrill better than wesspur, I ordered a catalog from them both but he sherrill hasn't arrived yet so I am basing my ?'s on the wesspur equipment. Few More Questions:

Are aluminum and titanium spurs worth the price difference?
How much rope (rigging and climbing) should I have?
What kind of ascenders and carabiners do I need?
Should I try to work with a partner when I start up or is it better to fly solo?
Is clearing ROW good experience for general tree work? The guy I work with now clears ROW mon-thurs and does general work fri and sat so I help him with the general work but when I am 18 he is hiring me to clear ROW, is it good experience?


THANKS


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## PTS (Jan 23, 2006)

palmersfirewood said:


> Ok i understand why not to use spikes on pruning but the ladder thing I'm not sure about. I have a 1 ton flatbed with 4 foot sides to use as a temporary chiptruck and can borrow a chipper anytime. Is sherrill better than wesspur, I ordered a catalog from them both but he sherrill hasn't arrived yet so I am basing my ?'s on the wesspur equipment. Few More Questions:
> 
> Are aluminum and titanium spurs worth the price difference?
> How much rope (rigging and climbing) should I have?
> ...




OK Ladders.... Work well if you have a groundsman who can remove them once you are in the tree you may find that one that extends to 20 ft is more appropriate but depends on how high you first limbs are in your area. Down south a 40 footer wouldn't get you there but in Iowa a 20 will do the job. They will bend if you hit them with a tree 

Spikes... personally I don't think they are worth the money to go to the light weight ones but that is just my opinion

Ropes.... I would have two climb lines in a 16 or 24 strand. HyVee or Blaze I would suggest. You should have a three strand 150 ft for natural crotch lowering and Samsons Stable Braid for rigging on false crotches and I would recommend a porta wrap in large size. You can use a bigger rope with the large the medium you only can go up to a 9/16 rope. 

Ascenders.... It depends on your climbing stile. I am working on footlocking and if you can get that down there is no need for one but until then I am using a left and right hand pentzl ascender and a pantin foot ascender. I use the right as my life line hooked to me and then my left I have a foot loop and also have a back up lifeline going to me off of it. You can do this with a single rope (SRT) over a limb and tied off to a tree or you can do a double rope technique (DbRT) in which you rope goes up over a limb or through a false crotch and comes back down to you one end is tied off to you and the other is the one you will be pulling on to ascend. Make sure you have someone show you this before you try either style. 

Carabiners.... Ansi requires the posi lock carabiner for your life line. I like the Auto Lock Steel ones for rigging. If you are going to be hanging gear off of yourself which you will you can get the carabiners that don't lock. I like the screw locks for this because you can lock them if you want or you can leave them unlocked if you want.

Partners.... They can be good if money becomes a problem or if they fill a void for example if you are the worlds greatest tree cutter but can't talk to a customer then someone who is good with people and knowledgeable about trees but maybe doesn't like climbing around in them would be a good possibility. However a partner is like a spouse in many cases you have to ask for permission to do something like spending money or changing something. 

Personally I say go solo. No one to answer to and if you can handle it on your own it is the only way to go. Then you will find a good staff that will complete you and your picture of the perfect business.

I think any experience is good experience unless the experience is bad experience. Confused yet???? If they are a reputable company with good work ethics then it will be good but if they are hacks then you don't want to learn from them. You will pick up bad habits and learn how to do things the wrong way. 

Hope this novel helps.


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## Redbull (Jan 23, 2006)

I dont blame you for not wanting to work off a ladder. I wont do it either, but when I have to I am always tied in. I think the ladder is meant for access, not working.
As far as spurs go, it comes down to preference and personal comfort. 
I cant speak for climbing and rigging lines because I dont know what size trees ya'll have. I use an 80' Hi-Vee climbing line and 150' Blaze climbing line. My rigging ropes range from 75-150'.
I would not recommend a partnership. If you need help on a job thats too big for you to handle, hook up with a trustworthy tree service in your area and sub out the work.
Triple lock carabiners for climbing.
I would recommend reading Tree Climbers Companion and any other book you can get your hands on that addresses tree climbing.
Good luck and be safe.


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## daveyclimber (Jan 25, 2006)

Kliens with Euc pads are the only way to go , Split tail , 16 strand climb line with aluminum snap , 16 ft steel core with gibbs ascender .


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## clearance (Jan 25, 2006)

Davey's advice is good steel snaps over aluminum, same with biners, is what I use though. Aluminum scares me, when I took the course to climb utility a guy from Asplundh hung a small fir top and bang, his aluminun biner snapped. I know it is rated but you can cut it easily with a framing blade in a skilsaw. My figure 8 is aluminum though, but I never use it, they are banned here......Ladders, not, hump up the tree or be a hack, people fall from ladders everyday, they are for construction work, Where they can be placed agianst something solid.


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## rebelman (Jan 25, 2006)

Palmersfirewood--I've no doubt clearance is a fine utility arborist. But there is a huge difference between utility and residential arborists. If a utility arborist tells you there is no need for a ladder in residential work, consider carefully. Using a ladder is no more dangerous than any phase of tree work if done properly. Ladders are more effective than bucket trucks, putting a climber into the tree where he can move about the tree and make cuts based on what the tree needs rather than what his bucket can reach. Ladders get you into trees Bucket trucks can't get to, which in residential work is many. I can't see how rope climbiing from the ground can be competitive in the real world. Spikes are not to be used for residential pruning. The solution for me for seventeen years and many thousands of trees is a ladder. I was taught certified methods in the eighties, yes, good instruction is key for safety and efficiency. Put a ladder up it. I'ts that simple.


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## Koa Man (Jan 25, 2006)

clearance said:


> ....... people fall from ladders everyday, they are for construction work, Where they can be placed agianst something solid.



I think a tree that can be climbed is pertty solid. I use ladders on almost every job I do. Most common scenario for me would be leaning a 12 ft. straight ladder against the trunk to just get me pass the part of the tree that has no side branches. That is a tremendous energy saver. It is also very handy if you need to get up on the roof to either cut something or clean off the sawdust, leaves, and twigs that may have gotten on the roof while you were working the tree. 

I still laugh when I think about this guy from Texas who was watching someone at the TCI demo tree set up all his fancy acension gear. When he was done and was about to climb the rope, the guy told him, "I can have my groundman set my 28 ft. ladder in the tree and I'll be tied in and cutting before you even got all your gear on." You know what? He was right.

Ladders are good, and an orchard ladder is sometimes the only way to do a small tree's tips properly.


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## Redbull (Jan 25, 2006)

Don't get me wrong. I'll use a ladder any day to get into a tree, but you wont find me pruning off a 40' extension ladder. Also, I agree Koa, sometimes the only way to prune the tips of some smaller trees is with a ladder. Just another tool that has its place.


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## Koa Man (Jan 25, 2006)

Redbull said:


> I'll use a ladder any day to get into a tree, but you wont find me pruning off a 40' extension ladder.



You got that right!


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## OutOnaLimb (Jan 26, 2006)

If your gonna be a Bear, be a Grizzly Bear. Not a panda bear, or a koala bear.Take heed and learn from the pros. Ambition is good, but ya gotta learn from the guys that came before you. My advice would be to hire on with a reputable tree service and hone your skills.

Kenn


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## clearance (Jan 26, 2006)

If spureless climbing is so easy what do you need ladders for? I just throw my steelcore around it and start walking up.......If you use ladders be carefull. Make sure the legs are well planted, stuck in the ground. Use the 4 to 1 rule, that means that for every 4ft. up it leans out 1ft.. 24ft. leans out 6ft. for example. They kind of give me the creeps when I work construction after being so comfortable and feelling safe with my spurs.


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## Redbull (Jan 27, 2006)

Even when Im wearing spurs for a removal, I'll use a ladder to get in the first 20'. Its just that much more energy that I'll have when I get up there. I think you're stretching a little with that one, man.


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## PTS (Jan 27, 2006)

Ladder entrance = work smarter not harder.


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## kennertree (Jan 27, 2006)

Ladders do make entry much easier, the only problem is i forget i have on on the truck. I remember it once in a while and get it out.


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## Koa Man (Jan 27, 2006)

Like I always say, ladders are good, I always use them for entry into a tree. Tremendous energy saver, the first 10 ft. is always the hardest.


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## clearance (Jan 27, 2006)

I will take your word for it because I have never used one for treework. Some of these big old growth trees are a bich to climb at the beginning, my 18' steelcore can barely get around. I just couldn't imagine packing a ladder through the slash, logs, bush for a few thousand feet every day. It is hard enough to walk with what I have, even with caulks.


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## Redbull (Jan 27, 2006)

You got a point Clearance, but I think this guy will be sticking to residential work.


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## coydog (Jan 28, 2006)

ladders... good energy saver for access...sometimes... unless i'm really banging out a lot of trees I find the energy and time of getting the ladder off and back on the truck to be more of a PITA than a real energy saver compared to body thrusting a few feet up the trunk but that's just me, they got their place. orchard ladders can be really essential if you want to include ornamental pruning and hedges.
spurs... Climbing with and without spurs are TWO DIFFERENT SKILL SETS!
I've watched and/or worked with lot's of climbers that excelled in one and stank in the other. My advice, learn them both. If you are going to be in your hooks a lot, a good set of bashlins or titanium climbers with wrap aroud pads are well worth the money, if you are rarely in them, probably not. It depends on your legs as well, I've got bony shins that have been abused in the past, I'll take the comfy pads please. Proper boots are important as well. 
get some experience... experience is priceless, find a good company and work hard learning the ropes for a few years. You will learn a lot about the business end this way as well, try to work in an outfit where you can get involved in the bidding/sales process eventually. key point... work for a good company that has solid ethics, follows industry standards, and focuses on quality as well as production. Even if the pay is not optimal, you are getting an education, don't be in a hurry.
BTW, I think OSHA has some pretty stringent age limtations for operating chainsaws/chippers/etc.


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## coydog (Jan 28, 2006)

I mention the age thing because you say you are out working part-time with your friend, I don't know if your'e covered under any workman's comp or not, or if you have insurance, if you were involved in a major accident before you turn eighteen it could cause some real problems in terms of liability etc. for all parties involved. I can't say I didn't do the same kind of thing when I was your age, I'm simply putting it out there as a heads up. Perhaps somebody else on the forum has some more definitive knowledge.


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## Koa Man (Jan 28, 2006)

coydog,
What size ladder are you carrying around. We have an 8' and 12' straight ladders that we use the most. Both require almost no effort to carry around. We put our pruner poles and rakes on it attached with bunge cords and one guy can easily carry the whole thing one time. If you are carrying around 24 or 28 ft. extension ladders, then yes, it is a hassle.


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## coydog (Jan 28, 2006)

well, right now its a 24' ext ladder, I just started a gig on a municipal crew a few months ago (seattle parks and rec) and that ladder is stored inside a walk-in utility truck with a bunch of other gear, hurts my back just thinking about stooping inside that thing and taking it off its hooks. Prior to that I worked in Portland as a crew leader for General Tree Service for three or so years. I drove an asplundh style rig with the ext ladder/ pole saw pole pruner comp. next to the chip box gate. i then had an 8',12' and 16' orchard ladder secured to the top of the rig, along with 3 sheets of plywood. If we were doing a lot of ornamental work on a landscape the first thing off the truck was the 8' orchard ladder, or whatever was appropiate, I never really saw a use for straight ladders that were so short If I wanted low access I would just use the orchard ladder. There's lots of scenarios where an ext or straight ladder is necessary, roof access for emergency jobs, etc. and theres been lots of times I've used ladders to save energy, I just don't use them routinely for the purpose of labor saving, and that's just me, When I ran my own tree service in Minnesota, did I have ladders? absolutely, and I would recommend anyone starting a tree service to have them but i wouldn't recommend relying on them, especially if youre a beginner and trying to develop strong climbing skills.


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