# Cement filled tree......



## l2edneck (Sep 7, 2006)

This is a tree that i have been looking at for the past 15 years.Im not sure when it was done but im sure it has prolonged the life of the tree.(i do not know what kinda damage this possibly has done if any?)It looks as if the tree had a large cavity and rather than remove it the filled it with blocks.I understand this used to be common practice but is shyed away from now.Just from the pics here what do you think should be done?There is a few cables in it but IMO i think it is time to do something about the safety issue.At what point do you think its unsafe if any?What would you do besides removing.It really is a beautiful tree.Just trying to get some knowledge and opinions here.Im not contracted to do any work to it.Thankyou all.

Pics are 600x450 so i think maybe ok fer dial-uppers

editriginal links didnt work try these....
View attachment 37773

View attachment 37774


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## Ed*L (Sep 7, 2006)

Thats gonna be hard on a chain. :hmm3grin2orange: 

Many years ago my neighboor concrete filled a Hard Maple that had a hollow trunk. I'm guessing it was done in the early 60's. He carried buckets of concrete up a ladder & poured them in. The tree is still there & appears healthy. I would guess thre tree has a 38" diameter trunk.
There was also one on our property that was filled the same way. It was removed back in the early 70's.
I guess at one time it was a common practice.

Ed


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## PTS (Sep 7, 2006)

I have run into my share of them. There isn't no other way of putting it. They suck. Once I hit it the price just doubled and that is just for starters. What pisses me off is when the homeowner knows about it and doesn't tell you. Best way I have found to deal with it is de-limb everything you can. Then I hook a chain around the top of the log if it is tall and put on a really old wore out chain with a new edge and start cutting till I hit it and just keep working all the way around till there is nothing left but cement. Then use the loader to bust off the concrete.

I have also found that if you cut in the root flare the cement for whatever reason has a tendency of not getting down that far. Maybe it was coincidence.

My worst one was concrete at 30 feet in the air and all the way to the bottom. If the end loader wasn't right there I would probably been forced to leave it.

You have to admire the ambition of carrying cement 30 feet up a latter to fill a 8 to 10 inch diameter hole 30 feet long. Guess he was an over achiever.


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## Dadatwins (Sep 7, 2006)

Cement was a very common practice years ago, have also seen some cavity filled with a combo of cement and steel rebar which really makes for a miserable day. Tree looks like it has been maintained and the cement cavity looks like the tree is rolling back over it. Cement really does nothing for support it is just there for asthetics. In that situation it was probably put in to stop the cavity from becoming a trash recepticle. Good idea, bad choice of materials. As for what to do with the tree, check tension and strentgh of the cables, those are some heavy limbs. Possible to reduce some of the weight from the ends. At the base and cavity level check for further decay and any additional hollow. The wound wood that the tree is rolling around the cement is very dense and strong.


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## Jumper (Sep 8, 2006)

I saw cement and rebar as well in a really nasty Manitoba Maple removal some years ago in Ottawa.


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## Ekka (Sep 9, 2006)

Back then expanding foam in a can wasn't available.

Also there may have been a logic that said the strength lost by decayed heartwood was replaced with concrete.

It offers nothing but a PITA for the arbo today.

Regarding the rest of the tree, cant tell.

Trees can live and look healthy on only an inch or two of sapwood. How far up that hollow goes, if it's hollow thru the branches etc needs to be tested and assessed for wall thickness.

Look at the underneath of the limbs where they're joing the trunk, look for fibre buckling and on top of the limbs growth triations indicate a rapid amount of tension wood being added ... if however the bark is lifting, cracking etc it is trouble. Mark it with paint etc and check it, if the lifting bark is advancing and the fibrebuckling increasing you have a scenario where the limb is falling off.

Cabling may have saved it some but look at and beyond the cable attachments for same.

Look for swelling where the tree is compensating for thin walls and beefing up. Fibre buckling in the area is also indication of subsidence.

*Go to this thread, download and print out in colour the VTA chart, laminate it and keep it with you. I know it that well it's forever embedded in my head now.*
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=20996&highlight=vta


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 27, 2012)

l2edneck said:


> This is a tree that i have been looking at for the past 15 years.Im not sure when it was done but im sure it has prolonged the life of the tree.(i do not know what kinda damage this possibly has done if any?)It looks as if the tree had a large cavity and rather than remove it the filled it with blocks.I understand this used to be common practice but is shyed away from now.Just from the pics here what do you think should be done?There is a few cables in it but IMO i think it is time to do something about the safety issue.At what point do you think its unsafe if any?What would you do besides removing.It really is a beautiful tree.Just trying to get some knowledge and opinions here.Im not contracted to do any work to it.Thankyou all.
> 
> Pics are 600x450 so i think maybe ok fer dial-uppers
> 
> ...





old thread but worth reviving was this old tree filled with blocks, ever removed, or is it still there and growing ?

I see a lot of threads and posts regarding old trees filled with concrete that were removed, and what a PITA it was to remove the concrete, but almost none of them state whether the tree was actually dead when they removed the tree and concrete, or if it was still alive

in the case of the pictures of the tree in the OP here, why remove it, it's flourishing just fine with the block in it, and obviously very strong

I'm starting to think the major case against concrete filling isn't the tree's health or longevity, it's the removal service people not wanting to deal with it later.


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## treemandan (Jul 27, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> old thread but worth reviving was this old tree filled with blocks, ever removed, or is it still there and growing ?
> 
> I see a lot of threads and posts regarding old trees filled with concrete that were removed, and what a PITA it was to remove the concrete, but almost none of them state whether the tree was actually dead when they removed the tree and concrete, or if it was still alive
> 
> ...



I kinda do agree with your last thoughts.


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## treemandan (Jul 27, 2012)

l2edneck said:


> This is a tree that i have been looking at for the past 15 years.Im not sure when it was done but im sure it has prolonged the life of the tree.(i do not know what kinda damage this possibly has done if any?)It looks as if the tree had a large cavity and rather than remove it the filled it with blocks.I understand this used to be common practice but is shyed away from now.Just from the pics here what do you think should be done?There is a few cables in it but IMO i think it is time to do something about the safety issue.At what point do you think its unsafe if any?What would you do besides removing.It really is a beautiful tree.Just trying to get some knowledge and opinions here.Im not contracted to do any work to it.Thankyou all.
> 
> Pics are 600x450 so i think maybe ok fer dial-uppers
> 
> ...




That tree is something else.


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## old grizzly (Jul 27, 2012)

*concrete filled trees.*



l2edneck said:


> This is a tree that i have been looking at for the past 15 years.Im not sure when it was done but im sure it has prolonged the life of the tree.(i do not know what kinda damage this possibly has done if any?)It looks as if the tree had a large cavity and rather than remove it the filled it with blocks.I understand this used to be common practice but is shyed away from now.Just from the pics here what do you think should be done?There is a few cables in it but IMO i think it is time to do something about the safety issue.At what point do you think its unsafe if any?What would you do besides removing.It really is a beautiful tree.Just trying to get some knowledge and opinions here.Im not contracted to do any work to it.Thankyou all.
> 
> Pics are 600x450 so i think maybe ok fer dial-uppers
> 
> editriginal links didnt work try these....Not far from where i live is a old methodist chapel and across the road from the chapel is an old oak tree,it is thought that John Wesley used to preach under the tree so it must be a great age,anyway this tree is hollow and was filled with concrete years and years ago to preserve it and it is still looking good,incidentally there is a house next to the tree which is called Stone tree cottage.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 27, 2012)

I noticed that most of the threads talking about removing trees with concrete in them, almost none of them state whether the tree is alive or not. There is almost zero factual information on each individual filled tree, how long it lasted, did the concrete kill it, etc. There is one famous tree that lasted an additional 90 years before being removed, simply because it was filled with concrete. That can be found on a google search.

If concrete next to wood is so bad, then how come all our homes and skyscrapers are built that way.

There seems to be a lack of common sense and logic in the assumption concrete in a tree is bad, and you know the old saying, sometimes those old timers knew a lot more than we give them credit for. The overbuilt stuff and it was strong, mainly because it was cheaper to overbuild back then. Now it's penny pinching city in this crappy economy.

If the tree is in a safe place with no targets, filling it and seeing what happens, is certainly better than cutting it down, especially if it's a large, majestic tree, that is appealing to the eye.

It would cost a lot of money today, to fill a tree with concrete or block, more than the cost to remove it. That's the only valid reason I can see, other than potential targets if the top falls. It's not a valid technical, biological, or structural reason why not to fill it. 

What it does to someone's chainsaw 50 years later because they didn't know, is not a valid reason not to do it. We live in the here and now. It costs a lot of money to tear a house down too, that doesn't mean you stop using concrete and block to build the house, because it's harder to tear it out later.

bad logic, bad science, IMHO.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 28, 2012)

I was talking to the Line Superintendant in the Copper Valley last week and he told me about how he worked as a beginning arborist in Colorado filling Silver Maples with concrete and block. Might have been Boulder? I'll ask him. Next chance I get. I had never heard of it before.


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## Treetom (Jul 28, 2012)

*concrete sucks...*

That's all I can say. Yesterday I wasted three 36" chains cuttin' through this bad boy at 18 ft high. Totally disguised vein of concrete running inside the truck. View attachment 246486
View attachment 246487


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## sgreanbeans (Jul 28, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> I noticed that most of the threads talking about removing trees with concrete in them, almost none of them state whether the tree is alive or not. There is almost zero factual information on each individual filled tree, how long it lasted, did the concrete kill it, etc. There is one famous tree that lasted an additional 90 years before being removed, simply because it was filled with concrete. That can be found on a google search.
> 
> If concrete next to wood is so bad, then how come all our homes and skyscrapers are built that way.
> 
> ...



So what ur sayin is, concrete is OK? Really!


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## keh10 (Jul 28, 2012)

Treetom said:


> That's all I can say. Yesterday I wasted three 36" chains cuttin' through this bad boy at 18 ft high. Totally disguised vein of concrete running inside the truck. View attachment 246486
> View attachment 246487




Man, that sucks. Why would anyone put concrete in a solid tree like that??? :bang:


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jul 28, 2012)

Treetom said:


> That's all I can say. Yesterday I wasted three 36" chains cuttin' through this bad boy at 18 ft high. Totally disguised vein of concrete running inside the truck. View attachment 246486
> View attachment 246487



Why did you ruin to more chains after you hit it with the first one?


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## Treetom (Jul 29, 2012)

I couldn't see what I was hitting so I kept trying. Luckily I was able to drop the trunk in the yard, then I just picked it up with the crane. When the trunk hit the gound, the top piece with the concrete I' hit broke off, the concrete was all that was holding. That's the piece to the right on the truck. View attachment 246690
View attachment 246691
View attachment 246692
View attachment 246693


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## Grace Tree (Jul 29, 2012)

View attachment 246695


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## Treetom (Jul 29, 2012)

View attachment 246696
Great pic! That was the MO for dealing with cavities in trees back in the day. The oak I removed in the pics is in a historic part of town where many trees I've encountered over the years contained concrete. As was mentioned, some trees even contain blocks and mortar in the trunk. Here's a terrace tree at the same site, must have forgot to fill it up. Old growth oak meets new growth maple.


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## Treepedo (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.arboristsite.com/search.php?searchid=1236957&pp=&page=3

The most interesting thing about concrete, is it acts as a fulcrum and 
caused more stress to the leads point of attachment.

The thread above comes with many interesting comments.

The tree I did is doing well and survived a fairly serious microburst last year.
:msp_smile:


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## Oldmaple (Jul 30, 2012)

Used to be common practice. Clean out all the rotten stuff back to solid wood then put in concrete. Was thought it would stop the rot from spreading. This was before Dr. Alex Shigo and his compartmentilization theories. Had to put it in in layers usually seperated by roofing felt. This way when the tree would sway and flex the layers would slide across each other. Didn't provide any additional strength until the callous tissue would grow across the surface. Thought was that a hollow cylinder of solid wood (like an O) was stronger than a hollow U shape. It did provide a solid backing for the callous tissue to grow across and try to close over the cavity (rather than curling in on itself). If the callous did grow across the cavity it did conveniently hide the concrete from the arborist who had to bid the eventual removal (sucks to be him and his crew). Usually done now with expanding foam. Easier on saw chains but not as long lasting as the concrete.


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## davidbradley360 (Aug 1, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> So what ur sayin is, concrete is OK? Really!



it's holding up your house, isn't it ?

does your house sway and break off the foundation ?

what's the pyramids made from, that lasted 4000 years ?

I hear a lot of tree cutters #####ing concrete, but still have not heard of a single cement filled tree actually falling down because of the concrete

where's the proof ? difficulty in removal is not reason to not use it, that just proves how much more sturdy the tree is, with the concrete in it

it's difficult to remove a building too, for good reason

the issue I'd be concerned about, is the trunk the being solid, and all the flexing in wind taking place up higher where the trunk is thinner, and perhaps the stress causing the tree to crack and break there.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 1, 2012)

Ya know, your right, concrete is strong, who knew. But since u have no idea of what it really does to a tree, what ants do to a tree. I am going to ask you to get some education in Arboriculture, because it is obvious that u don't have any. These things that u say have been proven wrong (except that concrete gets hard) by so many, its amazing that you haven't read about it somewhere, but it is clear that u have not. Keep posting absolute BS and you will go away. Your "advice" is horrible and not accurate.

Just so no one takes away, any of this he says. If a tree needs to have a yard of concert poured in it, it should be removed, period. Yes at one time in history, it was a practice, then we started walking upright and making wheels.

Do you work in tree care?


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## davidbradley360 (Aug 1, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Ya know, your right, concrete is strong, who knew. But since u have no idea of what it really does to a tree, what ants do to a tree. I am going to ask you to get some education in Arboriculture, because it is obvious that u don't have any. These things that u say have been proven wrong (except that concrete gets hard) by so many, its amazing that you haven't read about it somewhere, but it is clear that u have not. Keep posting absolute BS and you will go away. Your "advice" is horrible and not accurate.
> 
> Just so no one takes away, any of this he says. If a tree needs to have a yard of concert poured in it, it should be removed, period. Yes at one time in history, it was a practice, then we started walking upright and making wheels.
> 
> Do you work in tree care?



do you have common sense ?

show me a tree that fell over, because there was concrete in it.

this thread OP showed one thriving, that would have fallen down a long time ago, had it not been for the concrete blocks

cutting them down, isn't tree care.

anyone can do that. If your idea of "tree care" is cutting them down, without hitting anything, I'd say it's lacking.

making them live another 100 years, now that's the challenge

ever hear of the liberty tree ? It lived another 90 years, because it was strengthened with concrete

http://construction.asu.edu/cim/Articles/tree_surgery.pdf

the Liberty Tree

THE LIBERTY TREE
A famous tree once saved with concrete in 1907
was “The Liberty Tree,” in Annapolis, MD. This majestic
Tulip Poplar (Fig. 4) eventually lived an estimated
400 years—100 to 150 years beyond the normal life span
for the species. Unfortunately, damage from high wind
forces exerted during recent Hurricane Floyd harmed
the old tree too severely, requiring its removal in 1999.
Taking out the concrete-filled arbor proved an arduous
task—requiring a laborious day and a half. It was a
sad ending to a natural monument that had withstood
many assaults during its long life, including lightning
strikes, fire set in one its hollows, and even a blast
from 2 lb (0.9 kg) of gunpowder placed within a hollow
in the old tree.
The Liberty Tree earned its name for events taking
place under or near its once capacious, leafy awning
during the American Revolution in the 18th century.
At the time, these events included meetings at which
orators fomented revolution against the British Crown.
One such speechmaker was Maryland=s Samuel Chase, a
founding father of the United States of America, and a
signer of the Declaration of Independence.
Over the many subsequent decades, the tree and
its environs hosted picnickers, religious sermonizers,
sporting events, and even ceremonies for the graduating
students of St. John=s College, on the campus of which
the Liberty Tree had resided. In the early part of the
20th century, however, the extent of the large cavity (due
to parasites that had excavated into the tree) became
quite serious. The damage had reached 56 ft (17 m) up the
interior of the tree. Remedial surgery took place in 1907,
when a landscape architect, forester, and tree surgeon,
John T. Withers, cleaned out the tree=s enormous void.
He followed with antiseptic treatment and then filled the
cavity with concrete, using sections of iron and steel
for reinforcement. The Liberty Tree required 55 tons
(50 tonnes) of concrete—reportedly the largest case of
tree surgery ever performed.
Although the famous old tree did succumb finally, it has
experienced a sort of metamorphosis. After being torn
down, its sturdy wood was sold to a guitar manufacturer,
who converted it to 400 “Liberty Guitars.”


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## davidbradley360 (Aug 1, 2012)

here's another historic oak, filled with concrete

The Liberty Tree - A Magic Kingdom Landmark Since Opening Day | Disney World Blog Discussing Parks, Resorts, Discounts and Dining | Only WDWorld

The Liberty Tree - A Magic Kingdom Landmark Since Opening Day

When walking through the Magic Kingdom's Liberty Square it is hard not to notice the Liberty Tree. It is a massive Live Oak that has been a Magic Kingdom landmark since the park opened in 1971, but how many of you know its story?

The Liberty Tree - A Part Of American History
Everything at Disney World is part of a story. Nothing appears by chance. The Liberty Tree actually has two interesting stories to be shared. The first story has to do with the role that the Liberty Tree plays in its place in Liberty Square.

The term "Liberty Tree" held a special place during the American Revolution as it was used as a rallying point for the colonists. The original Liberty Tree was in Boston and area beneath its branches became known as "Liberty Hall." This stately elm became a meeting place, bulletin board, and symbol of rebellion for the pre-revolutionary war activities.

The single most known moment was when lanterns were hung in its branches to mark the repeal of the Stamp Act so that all could see.

On the bronze plaque located at the base of the tree (and pictured below) are the following words:

Under the boughs of the original Liberty Tree in Boston in 1765, Patriots, calling themselves "The Sons Of Liberty," gathered to protest the imposition of the Stamp Act. In the years that followed, almost every American town had a Liberty Tree -- A Living Symbol Of The American Freedom of Speech and Assembly.

Our Liberty Tree is a Southern Live Oak, Quercus Virginiana, more than 100 years old.


The Remarkable Story Of A Tree
The second story is about the tree itself and its impressive story of how it got to Liberty Square. As mentioned above the tree is a Southern Live Oak and it was originally located within the Disney World Resort property about 6 miles south of its present location. The tree was 40 feet tall and 60 feet wide and weighed over 38 tons.

At the time this was one of the largest trees ever attempted to be transplanted. It was too large to just place a chain around the trunk and lift it, since that would damage the delicate bark and potentially kill the tree. In order to move the tree and protect it, they drilled two holes through the trunk and inserted metal rods so that a crane could then lift the tree and transport it. After the tree was put into place the metal rods were removed and the original wood plugs were returned to the tree.

*Over time the re-inserted wood became diseased so they had to be removed and the holes were filled with concrete which stopped the further spread of disease.* Also a second, smaller live oak has been grafted onto the original tree to help give it the full shape that it enjoys now.

The Liberty Tree currently holds 13 lanterns representing the 13 original colonies.

Under Appreciated Landmark
The Liberty Tree doesn't get much attention since it is not part of a ride or a show, but it has a story that is as involved as any attraction. It makes an excellent addition to Liberty Square. The next time that you are visiting the Magic Kingdom, please take the time to slow down and look closely at the Liberty Tree and read its plaque.

Earn extra points with your family by telling them the story of how they are looking at one of the largest trees ever transplanted and how the Disney Imagineers accomplished the task.


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## davidbradley360 (Aug 1, 2012)

how much money does Disney have? 

they can afford the best in the world

they put concrete in the tree

here is huge fig trees with concrete in them, in a park. The other alternative would be,the tree falls over during the next storm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H22dVuh7gLo 

I believe the reason arborists frown on this,is they can bolt in a few cables and charge more money, for less work- instead of laying in concrete. There are landowners who have been fleeced $10,000 over a few years, to just cable and brace a few trees.

concrete would actually be cheaper, and stronger, and not have to be maintained every year. In some cases, the arborists are feathering their own nests, with yearly tree cable/brace maintenance contracts.


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## davidbradley360 (Aug 1, 2012)

shoring up the huge hollow tree in a park, with a cement mixer truck

Ocean Cement at the Hollow Tree - YouTube


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 1, 2012)

Yeah, all nice and fuzzy. 
Ya didn't answer the question. Do you work in tree care. Have you ever studied the effects of concrete in a tree, and what it does to the protection zone? Do you know what the protection zone is?

No you have not. No you do not.

"If cavities are to be filled, DO NOT USE CONCRETE OR OTHER ABRASIVE MATERIALS" Dr Alex L. Shigo, A New Tree Biology.
What page? Buy the book and read it to find out. 
I do have common sense. And right now its telling me that you are not in the right place. Do not post in this thread anymore. This is for professional Arborist. Something that you are not. 

Wow, a vid on youtube, must be right then, if ya seen it on the internet.

And how interesting is it that the peeps who wrote those article's teach construction and promote the use of concrete for anything/everything. But not one of them are listed as a Arborist, Botanist or Plant Biologist. I sure would take my tree care info from a concrete supplier, they don't have a unbiased opinion or anything, its obvious they must know more about trees that anyone who studies plants, say Harris, Shigo or Stern.

"There are no data to show that filling a cavity increases the strength of the trunk" - Shigo


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 1, 2012)

I told you, do not post in this part of the forum. You do not add anything but absolute giberish. So stop. Stick to Home Owners or you may ask a Professional a question about Arboriculture in the 101. Stay out of Commercial. 

You can still answer the question, its a simple yes or no. Do you work as a professional in the tree industry?


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 1, 2012)

OK, the answer is obviously no, since you cant answer the simple question. The facts that you present are not, in fact, facts. You tube vids are not the way to educate yourself. You know nothing of me or my operation, or my outlook, well maybe a bit now. But it is clear to me now that you have absolutely no freaking idea of what you are talking about, but continue to post BS anyways. Thus I deem you a troll. Do not post any more, I will just delete it, if you continue with the nonsense that you speak of, on any tree matter. I will ultimately ban you from the site. I am not feathering my nest. I am defending my industry from people who take the word of those who do not under stand the biology of trees. Its this simple, you do not belong here.


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## Toddppm (Aug 1, 2012)

He's a funny guy, asked about whether or not to remove his broken tree in the 101 forum and once he got some replies and talked to 1 company he started explaining to us the costs of running a tree business and why hollow trees should be removed. 
Instant expert!!! 

Now a few web searches and he's a rotted tree stablilization engineer too! He really should post a few videos on Expert Village and become infamous.


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## sodbreaker (Aug 1, 2012)

Would seem to me that pouring concrete into the center of a tree would be a wonderful idea. Equaly as good as nailing barb wire to trees when your to lazy to pound a post. Now one could argue that nails, barb wire, concrete, etc. would make the tree a B**CH to cut down but in reality. That's for the next generation of tree workers to worry about, Beside I'll be dead and gone before anyone thinks of cutting "that" tree down.


P.S. that was sarcasm in case anyone was wondering.


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