# Echo CS450 Chain Saws won't start



## WickedGood (Nov 25, 2011)

Echo CS450 Chain Saws won't start 


View attachment 208541



I went to Home Depot and bought a New Echo CS450 Chain Saw with 18 inch bar that was on sale. 
They did not have any left in boxes so I took the display model.

It ran fine for about a week cutting down a few pine trees. then I let it sit for a few weeks in my basement. ( Warm & Dry) 

Tried to start it and Nothing! 

cleaned out the fuel strainer pickup and went to clen the Air filter and found out that the filter and the plastic knob/cover that holds it on was missing. 

I emailed Echo & Home depot and they told me too Bad.
Told me I would have to buy a new filter at Home depot for $19, but they dont sell the plastic knob/cover. 
Pretty piss poor service from Echo.

replaced the spark plug and fresh gas & oil mix and Nothing.

still would not start.

have pulled all of the carb hoses and fuel filter and have sprayed it all down inside out with carb cleaner.

Both saws will NOT Start.




well We had a big storm and I had trees hanging that were about to hit the house so I went and bought another *Brand New Echo CS 450 at home depot. This one had a 20inch bar and cost a few bucks more.* 


I used it to cut the trees and left it suitting in my clean, dry basement for about a month and guess what.



*IT WONT START!*


Saws only sat in a warm dry basement for a week or two..

Fuel should not have gummed up in that short of time.




They both have spark, I have tried spraying starting fluid into the carb and they still wont run.


What the hell is wrong with these saws?


I have has dozzens of saws in my life and never ran into these non start problems.\\


The Fast Idle Button lock has been removed on the new Echo chain saws.


what is the proper compression PSI for a new CS450?


what is the proper voltage for the magneto to output?

anyone have any problems like this?





[email protected]


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## zogger (Nov 25, 2011)

Bad gas, never leave two stroke mix in the machine unless you are going to use it tomorrow at the latest. Dump it out, start it, run it dry. Even if it was only "a week or two in a dry basement"...that crap gas don't care, it will go bad on you sometimes fast.

Don't use two stroke mix made from ethanol blended fuel after it is more than around two weeks old, or better, just never use that crap gas to make mix. You can google and find no-ethanol gas sources, or buy the canned premix, which is expensive, but is good gas mixed with good fuel and stabilizers.

Modern 2 strokes have a tendency to ship ultra lean on the H screw from the factory, to make current emissions standards. Running them at the stock settings is a crapshoot, some will be fine, some will be toast after a tank or two..just depends. And you usually can't make them any richer from the way they "limit" the adjustment screws, using "limiter caps". Those can be removed and then the carb adjusted properly, search here (might work..might not) or on google, tons of threads on this issue.

The newer one you bought should still be under a warrantee, take it back, either get a new saw or your money, when you have a replacement saw in hands, get it tuned properly at the dealers before using it. Failure to do that, on your own. You can switch brands, the same thing might happen to you. 

Tune first, run later. Run stock official government approved settings, using government mandated crap fuel..you take your chances.


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## rmh3481 (Nov 25, 2011)

There has to be a dealer other than Home Depot somewhere near you. Take them in and find out whats up. I also wouldnt leave anything with gas in it sitting in the basement. If it leaks some fuel from the warmth and are sitting near the hot water heater you will have more to worry about than a non start.


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## o8f150 (Nov 25, 2011)

first of all you can't always find non ethonol gas,, i have never had any problems running it,, it won't cause a non start condition,,,,, sounds like the first saw you smoked the p/c since there was no air filter,, the first thing i would do on the 2nd saw is pull the recoil and check your flywheel to make sure it and the coil is not rusted,,the compression on them should be around 140,, try putting a little bit of mix in the carb and see if it won't fire


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## zogger (Nov 25, 2011)

*Bwa, too funny!*



o8f150 said:


> first of all you can't always find non ethonol gas,, i have never had any problems running it,, it won't cause a non start condition,,,,, sounds like the first saw you smoked the p/c since there was no air filter,, the first thing i would do on the 2nd saw is pull the recoil and check your flywheel to make sure it and the coil is not rusted,,the compression on them should be around 140,, try putting a little bit of mix in the carb and see if it won't fire



You can't fake us out brother, we all seen your vids! BWAHAHAHA! No wonder you "never had any problems with ethanol fuel", you run whatever you got dipped in lard pig freekin rich! BWAHAHAHAHA! Your machines look like chemical warfare attacks, skeeter foggers from the 50s! C'mon, admit it, you the LAST dude on here to run a saw, brand new off the shelf, from big orange, with the *stock* carb settings. 

That's why you ain't ever had any troubles with ethanol fuel. You use your mix up, and you always tune them, AFTER the limiter extraction if needed, wayyy rich right off the bat before you run them, after one of your ace cleaning jobs. 

Believe it thusly..that scenario the OP postulated WILL lead to a "no start" condition a lot of times. Not every single time, but a lot.

Now maybe the guy has other problems, but it could very well be just plain old bad mix combined with lean to the point of anorexia carb settings from the factory. And you know echo does that, and you know that I know-found out-echo does that, so it could happen again. Every single time, I can't say, but possible? Sure 'nuff!


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## s219 (Nov 25, 2011)

I am having a hard time following your narrative, but it sounds like you ran one saw without an air filter, and then stored both of them with gas in the carb for an extended period of time. You need to take better care of the saws or you're just asking for problems like this. Echos are notoriously some of the easiest starting saws around, so something definitely went wrong if they are not firing right up.

As for your comment about the fast idle lock -- that is integrated into the choke lever, and activates as part of the cold start procedure. You'll notice that you need to blip the throttle after starting with choke on to disengage the high speed lock.


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## WickedGood (Nov 26, 2011)

*Let me be clearer*

Both theses Saws are not even a year old!

I have had many Brands of Chain Saws 50 to 1 mix and have used my Dads saws from the 1960s that needed 30 to 1 mix over the years.

Usually I can get 4-5 years of cutting a few hudred cords of wood before the saws need to be replaced.

Both of the Brand New Echo Saws I bought from 2 different Home Depots.

the first saw was "On Sale" Echo CS-450 They did not have any left in boxes so the sales guy gave me a discount to take the display model off the shelf. 

I put fresh gas and fresh 2 stroke oil mix in it 50:1 and ran it for a few weeks without any problems. when I needed to replace the chain I noticed that the air filter and plastic knob that holds it was missing. I went to home depot and they dont have the knobs. They wanted to sell me a filter for $20. I emailed ECHO and they were uselesss telling me to take it to a dealer instead of just sending me the knob & filter. 

then the saw sat in my clean dry, warm basement ( You could live down there) for a couple weeks. I went to use it and it would not start. No Way!

as I had a big tree about to hit my house that had been knoked over by lightning I needed a saw right away. so..


I went to a different Home Depot and bought the same model Echo CS-450 with a 20" Bar

I cut a dozzen pine trees over the course of a few days and was in process of slicing them into little chucks and the saw just stopped. Yes this one has an air filter.


Whatever the problem is it is common to both saws.

I have tried fresh gas and flushed the fuel tanks and carb hoses and pulled the muffler and cleaned it and new sparkplugs and still both saws wont start.

Visually they have spark. 
I need to now what the timing pulse is so that I can measure it and see if the magneto is firing at the correct time and the correct voltage.


also I need to measure the compression. Both saws appear to pump well but I cant find any specs on them.


does anyone have a exploded diagram of the Carb? Cant seem to find that either.



if its true that ECHO sets the carbs so lean that they burn out the piston rings under normal use then I feel that 
Echo is responsible and should give me two Brand new chain saws to replace these saws.


I am Not happy with their customer service at all.

[email protected]
\


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## mountainlake (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes it's true that they are set so lean that they will burn up in a long hard cut, the carb needs to adjusted before using them and Echo isn't the only brand as any new saw should be adjusted a little rich rather than real lean for break in. Sounds like the 2nd one that stopped when cutting most likely burnt up, first one if it was running good when you stored it most likely a gunked up carb and either Home D or you should have noticed the air filter was missing before you took it home. Also I think these saws are adjusted for good gas and running crapola just makes them run leaner. Steve


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## Cliff R (Nov 26, 2011)

Do a compression test, or remove the muffler and take a look at the exhaust side of the piston. I don't think you will have to look any further for the answer to your question(s).

I just took in a Stihl MS-310, pretty new saw, same deal, used a couple of times and became very difficult to start after each outing, then wouldn't start at all after sitting a few weeks, ran fine when last used.

The P/C was completely burned up, with most of the aluminum on the exhaust side of the piston smeared over the ring, compression down to 60psi........Cliff


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## WickedGood (Nov 26, 2011)

Please dont use Aycronums.

what is a P/C?


If your refering to the Piston and compression ring they looksed OK when I checked them out by shining a flashlight into the exhaust port and the top of the piston looks fine.
the ring looks fine and there are no metal particles or shavings .

any other ideas?


I just came across this Breakout of the saw.

http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/ec5b9ffb-d13c-4c90-94fe-dbd642d7e1ae/CS450_C058_12_111009.pdf



also. A cross referance for the sparkplug NGK BPM8Y to Champion CJ6Y will save a lot of cash on the cost of plugs.


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## mountainlake (Nov 26, 2011)

If it's got good gas???? (how old is the gas you put in it and some staions sell old gas) spark and compression it will start unless it's floodded real bad. Steve


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## WickedGood (Nov 26, 2011)

*Gas*

One can of Gas came from a Sunoco Sta on Rt 1, One came from a Mobil and One came form an Irving. all these stations are on Rt 1 and have high volume turniver, Im sure they get 3 or 4 truckloads a week from the loading Rack in Portland.

All this same gas runs my other two chainsaws just fine. ( One of which is a 20 year old Echo CS-3000, Runs just fine)

I just ordered a new compression test gage, as my old one broke while fixing a 2 stroke outboard motor ( One of thousands I have repaired) Have also rebuilt dozzons of motorcycles both 2 stroke & 4 stroke and a few hundred Marine inboard engines. 


I have just a tad of kknowledge about what Im doing with motors.


the Only other time I have run ito chain saws failing like this was when my Dad; when he was alive brought his new saw back for a "Tune Up" to Grantz in Salem NH. When he got it back Not running they told him it was toast and they would take it in on a trade in on anouther new saw. Way overpriiced.

I took it apart and found that someone had inserted a clear piece of plastic between the Carb and the engine intake port to block it, thereby causing the saw to not work.
This was a mechanics Scam trick and I sugested he Never do businiess with Grantz ever again.



However these two New Echo saws I have appear to have clean flow and are breathing well.

My next step is to pull apart the Carbs and clean the rubbber diaphrams and the little intake fuel sceen inside the carb.


wish I could find the CD Ign specs and timing curves so I could look at it with a O Scope and verify they are correct.


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## tallfarmboy (Nov 26, 2011)

Are you trying to tell us that you didn't notice the missing air filter nut on a DISPLAY model?? I smell a troll....

Echo saws are well known for being reliable and easy to start... 

TFB


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## zogger (Nov 26, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> One can of Gas came from a Sunoco Sta on Rt 1, One came from a Mobil and One came form an Irving. all these stations are on Rt 1 and have high volume turniver, Im sure they get 3 or 4 truckloads a week from the loading Rack in Portland.
> 
> All this same gas runs my other two chainsaws just fine. ( One of which is a 20 year old Echo CS-3000, Runs just fine)
> 
> ...



Well, sounds like you have plenty of experience, so go ahead and pull the cylinder for a looksee, make sure all of that is correct. What's the status of the plug(s) since the no start situation? What did the old plugs look like? those will be your biggest clues as to what was going on when they failed. Then a vacuum test. You know about air leaks.

Just a matter of elimination, you know you need spark, compression, fuel/air mix, and the spark has to show up at the right time, the timing. Timing is fixed, the flywheel is in the right spot, or it ain't, your ports ain't moving unless you grind them, so, key sheared a little or a lot, etc.

Oh, thought of one more thing, I don't know on those models if they have a decomp valve or not, (small saw, maybe not, but I don't know), if they do, maybe not closing and sealing correctly.

FWIW, I killed my echo by trusting the factory carb settings and running it too hard. p/c toast. Cleaned them up, new ring, ran for a minute, then stopped again. got to bite the bullet sometime and replace them at around 200 bucks so it sits, I ain't got that now and won't until next year. That's why I hammered on "don't trust factory carb settings". Now I know, then I didn't, live and learn.


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## mountainlake (Nov 26, 2011)

tallfarmboy said:


> Are you trying to tell us that you didn't notice the missing air filter nut on a DISPLAY model?? I smell a troll....
> 
> Echo saws are well known for being reliable and easy to start...
> 
> TFB



Gotta agree with you, a lot of things don't add up.

One goes down, goes out and buys the same model??
Missing air filter that nobody notices?
Lots of experience but can't get either one running?
Experience and doesn't know saws come set lean?
Didn't adjust the carb to start with.
Acting like thiers something wrong with the timing on 2 different saws that both ran, about a billion to 1 chance. Steve


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## Jer75 (Nov 26, 2011)

"...ran it for a few weeks without any problems. when I needed to replace the chain I noticed that the air filter and plastic knob that holds it was missing".


Most folks here have forgot more about chainsaws than I'll EVER know, I just like 'em alot. (Kinda like I used to like to play pool a lot, wasn't ever very good but still liked it and had fun doing it) And I've cut a lot of wood over a lot of years - but I don't know a lot about the inner workings of a saw (I mean I could never do the things the chainsaw mechanics on this site are capable of) But I am kind of finicky about general maintainence on things like saws.

Back in the late 70's when I was running an 031 AV I would take a bottle of oil in a shampoo bottle with a flip type pour lid and after cutting for awhile when it was time to turn the saw off and set it down, I'd run some oil over the chain and losen the tension and let the chain sag while I was busy doing other things. (always had a fear of the chain cooling off and tightening up on the sprocket doing no good to either chain or sprocket) I don't know if any of that was necessary but I got in the habit and still do it. 

And from his posts it sounds like the OP probably has a ton more know-how about chainsaws than I do as well, and I know everyone is different but I cannot imagine not checking the filter at some point during a "few weeks" of running the saw. (I'm thinking you need to be sent to chainsaw jail... LOL :msp_confused 

I'm just trying to imagine if I was using a saw over the course of a few weeks, complete with all the fuel and bar oil fillings, all the chain tensioning that would take place over the course of "a few weeks", and my not checking everything over with a fine tooth comb. Especially a new saw that I'm breaking in... 

I just imagine I'd have cleaned a filter maybe several times during a few weeks of cutting. But everyone is different that way I guess.

I hope some of the guys here can help you out - if these guys don't know the answer there won't be an answer - they're good!!!

Good Luck!!


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## Bob Wright (Nov 26, 2011)

Jer75 said:


> "... I know everyone is different but I cannot imagine not checking the filter at some point during a "few weeks" of running the saw.



Thats the difference from buying in a box store or at a dealer. The dealer would have had it running right from the get go. I know i am old school but i check my filter at every fill up, sorry thats just me but i am going over 30 years on a few saws...Bob


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## s219 (Nov 26, 2011)

Does anyone think that the saw would have been running way too lean without an air filter? The filter is a major restriction, and I bet airflow increases by several factors without the filter. Nevermind about the EPA-mandated lean settings, which put you in a marginal lean condition -- in this case, running without a filter could have made it *extremely* lean. Not to mention that a ton of dust would have entered the carb and engine, and lord knows all the things that can do.

OP, you haven't said anything about running the saws dry before storage. Did you do that? If you put the saws away with gas in the carb and tank, then you are asking for all sorts of trouble. I run my saws dry if they aren't going to be used for more than a week. And I don't use gas if it's older than about 4 weeks. I'd wager that old gas and improperly stored saws account for most of the problems homeowners run into these days. The new ethanol gas is OK if you are careful, but will bite you if you're not.


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## a. palmer jr. (Nov 26, 2011)

Uh...these don't have an ignition kill switch do they? My older saws have one and I keep forgetting to turn it back "on".


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## acguy (Nov 26, 2011)

*Easy starters!*

Echos are the easy start saws that run usually better than anything else on the truck. I didn't say more power or better cutting(let's not get into that yet), but I did say they typically start and run extremely well. I want step out on a limb and to rule out the manufacturer and Home Depot for the purpose of solving this.


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## RTK (Nov 26, 2011)

My echo along with all my other saws sit in a shed for months on end without running and almost always with fuel in the tank. They all start very easily and have for years without any problems or carb rebuilds, you have some other problem going on too have two fail in a row both within two weeks. 
Are you sure you have the ignition swith in the proper position........


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## WickedGood (Nov 28, 2011)

I was hoping that someone on this site knew more than just to suggest that the toggle switch was on or off.

No. The first saw did not come with an air filter, Niether did it have an instruction manual or chain wrench as it was a Home Depot Display.

why would I take apart a Brand New Saw to look for missing parts. Most everything I have ever bought at Home Depot has been built the way it should be to work.

Im not using these saws commercially, just for a few hours each time I need to cut some trees in my yard.

Over the years I have had many different tools with Gas engines and in gneral most of the time they have functioned well.

Why would anyone ever expect that a company would set the tuning so lean on a tool or any kind of motor, Marine, Truck etc.. that under normal use the customer would need to Muck with it to make the saw work proper.

That sounds like a recipie for disaster and pissed off customers.


You would think that technology and materials have come to the point that service would be minimal. Not like back when they built bikes like BSA's, Thriumps, Nortons and Enfields where you just expected to adjust your valves and chain every time you rode. Or like My old Panhead Hardley Ableson that leaked crankcase oil because they all did due to rough machining tolerances on the cases. Even the old Hondas and Yamahammers needed constant maintaince for quite a few years; Now people ride them without even knowing what Pliers and bailing wire is.

Stay Tuned. My new compression tester is in the mail and I should be able to eliminate that variable this week.




PS: How do you edit threads on this website


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## RTK (Nov 28, 2011)

You only need air, fuel and spark to make an engine run or pop even with low compression. Go through a diagnostic processes starting with spark first............. My echo floods very easily maybe that is your problem.


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## zogger (Nov 28, 2011)

*stopgap wink wink nod nod*



WickedGood said:


> I was hoping that someone on this site knew more than just to suggest that the toggle switch was on or off.
> 
> No. The first saw did not come with an air filter, Niether did it have an instruction manual or chain wrench as it was a Home Depot Display.
> 
> ...


--hit the "edit" button on your post...

The companies have to get permission from the government to sell their machines in the US. The machines have to pass an arbitrary emission level that has had no basis in engineering reality. None. There's the problem. Being two strokes, this was hard to do without coming up with a counter dodge. A stop gap measure was apparently (this is my belief based on all available evidence I have seen, empirical and anecdotal) put into place where the machines could function well..but not usually at the shipped adjustment level. The shipped adjustment level, with included "limiter caps" to "limit" fuel richening (which would take the engines into the not legal status), was sufficient to pass these emission levels, and garner permission to sell, but not quite the perfect tune to insure long term survivability of the engines. They ship real *lean*.

Dealers know this and deal with it, home depot just sells "stock", as is where is, on your own out of the box. There's another difference that is critical in this discussion.

The wink wink nod nod part is, dealers and savvy owners would remove the caps, adjust the machines to where they needed to be, and/or including work on highly restrictive mufflers. They now violate emissions, but will run without seizing, or developing other sorts of problems.

The companies are off the hook, they "passed emissions" on what was shipped. Dealers and savvy owners can buy and retune new equipment and run it.

It is only recently with stratofied charge and computer controlled carbs and ignition that they are back in the game close to legitimately. And even with these examples, as like outlined in the 201T thread, some more "custom" work is still needed to really make them function properly.

With that said, pull the mufflers, let the smart guys here see the pistons and cylinders of the problem saws.


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## Jeepin' (Dec 6, 2011)

WG - I've got multiple echo's, I'm not a pro, I'm what you would call a pro-sumer. I cut trees for all my family and friends, wether felling or climbing, and also volunteer for a YMCA camp, that is located on a wooded property. They usually have 20-30 trees each year of varying degree in size and challenge.

(Not relating anything to your story, but here's mine...) I've got multiple echos, and have zero problems. I love to work on 2-stroke motors, and service all my neighbors and families equipment. I've even gotten to the point with my echos where I'm pushing farther and farther with neglect to see if the "bad-gas/ethanol" diagnosis is real or a myth. Could be a different case with Sthil and Husky, but I've left my saws with ethanol 89 and Echo Powerblend Mix for 6+months of sitting, and they fire and run no problems. I've had them over 5 years, and at the five year mark I did MM and Lim-Cap pull. 

I'm not saying that your problem is mythical, or that you're a troll. If I had the same experience as you I would be upset too. On the same note, I wouldn't feel too good about myself if I was just wasting my own time, as well as people on this board if you are indeed trolling. If you've got two 450's that don't run, and you're at wits end with them, send them my way! I'd love to check them out, put in new P/C if needed and bring them back to life. 

I hope you eventually figure out what the deal is, and the next time you update this thread, you can have a great experience story to tell similar to others on this site.

Later,


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## WickedGood (Dec 15, 2011)

*Progess???*

Well.

I recieved my new Sun Compression tester and tested the 20 year old Echo CS-3000 saw. 150 PSI

New sparkplugs gapped to .28 thousanth

put in fresh cas & oil mix and it fired right up. Cust some wood and dumpped the remaining fuel fro the second tankfull to store the saw.



Checked the compression of both New Echo CS-450 saws which maybe have less than 10 hours on each.

Saw A has 110PSI
Saw B has 120 PSI

The factory Manual states the 90PSI Compression or higher is Good.


Bigger bore less PSI? Thats Strange!!

anyway. I took apart one of the carbs and cleaned spotless. 


New sparkplugs gapped to .28 thousanth


Reassembled and set the low idel screw halfway and the high idel screw fully CCW

Same gas the little saw just ran great on and I pulled off the spark arrestor screen just to help it breath.

Pulled it over about 10 times and it fired up! WOW!

Ran for about 2 min and died again. 

Still nothing.


so......


how do you remove the remove the infamous carb adjustment "caps", 

What is the correct adjust to make this run optimum. I have the factory manual and it only says 1/2 turn on low speed screw and fully CCW on high speed.


can you remove the adjustment screws entirely to clean and inspect them?

Anyone have Pictures?

what the hell is a new P/C "put in new P/C?"

[email protected]


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## Jeepin' (Dec 15, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet that your comp ratio should be way higher than that. P/C is Piston and Cylinder. If yours are scored (reason for low comp) you could replace the P/C, run the right mix and settings and maybe have a good strong saw.


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## WickedGood (Dec 15, 2011)

Saw A has 110PSI
Saw B has 120 PSI

The factory Manual states the 90PSI Compression or higher is Good.



anyone know where to purchace some new compression rings?


and what size are they?


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## zogger (Dec 15, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> Saw A has 110PSI
> Saw B has 120 PSI
> 
> The factory Manual states the 90PSI Compression or higher is Good.
> ...



--pull the mufflers. It is not hard. Take as clear and good of pictures of the piston, you'll see it through the exhaust port, as can be photographed with whatever you have, and post them up here. Do this before you throw any more money or effort at them.


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## vegaome (Dec 15, 2011)

Howdy,


My first two saws were/are Echo CS 510, and through my own wrong doings I burnt them up. Now they still have about 145 lbs of compression and I still run them scored piston and all. I plan to rebuild them some day but they still work reasonably well. I even leave the old gas in them. I cant seem to kill them. Maybe I will stop cleaning the air filter next. Sorry yours are not working out for you yet but I love mine burnt up and all.

Now I do have to ask about your reading 110 and 120. How many times are you pulling the starter cord? I have to pull mine four or five times to get up to 145. Pull them mufflers and have a look. Also look at your plug and see if your getting fuel. I would tear into them for you if you were closer.

I hope you get them running.


v/r

Mike


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## Bob Wright (Dec 15, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> New sparkplugs gapped to .28 thousanth



.028 is 28 thousands...Bob


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## mountainlake (Dec 15, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> Saw A has 110PSI
> Saw B has 120 PSI
> 
> The factory Manual states the 90PSI Compression or higher is Good.
> ...



I'd like to see where the factory manual says compression 90PSI + is good, most saws wont even run at that compression. A lot of things on this thread don't add up. Steve


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## mountainlake (Dec 16, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> Saw A has 110PSI
> Saw B has 120 PSI
> 
> The factory Manual states the 90PSI Compression or higher is Good.
> ...



I'd think it's time for you to quit putting out bs, just went through the CS450 operators manual and not one word about compression. I could have missed it but 90psi DOES NOT ADD UP. Lets see where you got that from, put up or shut up. And don't be calling yourself a mechanic, your not. Steve


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## a. palmer jr. (Dec 16, 2011)

mountainlake said:


> I'd think it's time for you to quit putting out bs, just went through the CS450 operators manual and not one word about compression. I could have missed it but 90psi DOES NOT ADD UP. Lets see where you got that from, put up or shut up. And don't be calling yourself a mechanic, your not. Steve



Compression should be above 90 for it to start good and run right. 90 is the bare minimum for it to run but it wouldn't be much of an engine. Above 120 would be what I would want. I have an old McCulloch 610 that pulls 180, actually had several of them.


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## mountainlake (Dec 18, 2011)

Right, I had one that ran at 110 but gutless, most new Echo saws will be 150+ compresion and if down to 90# might start but that would be about it. The OP on this thread is full of bs from the getgo. Some old reed valve saw might run good at 90# if they had 120# to start with. Going from 150+ to 90 or even 110# means the [email protected] are shot. Steve


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## In The Weeds (Dec 18, 2011)

Why would someone make this story up? I am not denying that its BS but why? Is this a dealer of a different brand and an Echo dealer just walked into town? I don't get it.


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## a. palmer jr. (Dec 18, 2011)

In The Weeds said:


> Why would someone make this story up? I am not denying that its BS but why? Is this a dealer of a different brand and an Echo dealer just walked into town? I don't get it.



Could have a bad compression gauge.


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## mountainlake (Dec 18, 2011)

In The Weeds said:


> Why would someone make this story up? I am not denying that its BS but why? Is this a dealer of a different brand and an Echo dealer just walked into town? I don't get it.



He must hate Echo bad as Troll, after I see him post in the manual where it says 90psi is good I'll believe him, untill then it's bs. WAY too many things dont add up on his post. Steve


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## Bob Wright (Dec 18, 2011)

My Echo manual for my CS-60S says for Standard compression in a cold state is 100 PSI. I know others here on the forum would be putting in rings at that point if it fell below 120 or so. Just my thoughts. Carry on men...Bob


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## brokenbudget (Dec 18, 2011)

i have had a few cs400 with about 125ish psi comp. and run very strong.
the last 440 i had here was only around the 135psi. mark.


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## mountainlake (Dec 18, 2011)

Bob Wright said:


> My Echo manual for my CS-60S says for Standard compression in a cold state is 100 PSI. I know others here on the forum would be putting in rings at that point if it fell below 120 or so. Just my thoughts. Carry on men...Bob



Kinda what I said, if they have 100 - 120 new then 90# would be no big deal as thay are'nt very wore out. Most of my new ones are over 150#, down too 90 they're shot. Steve


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## mountainlake (Dec 18, 2011)

brokenbudget said:


> i have had a few cs400 with about 125ish psi comp. and run very strong.
> the last 440 i had here was only around the 135psi. mark.



I also have some CS400 saws off Ebay that had scored cylinders that only make 130 to 135# comp that run real strong. Just to see I bought a new short block ($153) for the one that I could only get 110# out of, it has a bit over 150 psi but doesn't seem to pull any better than the ones with 135#. Steve


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## brokenbudget (Dec 18, 2011)

mountainlake said:


> I also have some CS400 saws off Ebay that had scored cylinders that only make 130 to 135# comp that run real strong. Just to see I bought a new short block ($153) for the one that I could only get 110# out of, it has a bit over 150 psi but doesn't seem to pull any better than the ones with 135#. Steve



these were basicly new properly run saws. no scoring what so ever.


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## mountainlake (Dec 18, 2011)

The difference could be our comp gauges or how we test. Steve


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## WickedGood (Dec 19, 2011)

I am trying to get the head off one of my Echo CS-450 saws to check out the piston & Rings and 

cant figure out how to get the clutch Assy off. 


So that I can remove the engine out of tha cast saw case.


does the clutch nut turn clockwise or counterclockwize?



Any hints?


Walt


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## WickedGood (Dec 19, 2011)

The piston & ring look OK, just a little bit worn.

Im surprized that they only have one ring.


Since I went thru all the work to take this thing completey apart I may as well upgrade the piston & Ring with brand new parts.


Does anyone know of an aftermarket Piston Ring manufacture that make better products?
I would really like to see a couple oil rings and comression ring in there.


View attachment 212235
View attachment 212236


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## a. palmer jr. (Dec 19, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> I am trying to get the head off one of my Echo CS-450 saws to check out the piston & Rings and
> 
> cant figure out how to get the clutch Assy off.
> 
> ...



Most, if not all chainsaws have the clutch turning clockwise to loosen.


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## WickedGood (Dec 19, 2011)

I used the rope tru the piston head port trick.


and a Wicked Big Ass pair of vice Grips.

Sprun right off CLOCKWIZE!


That was pretty slick!


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## justme23005 (Dec 19, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> The piston & ring look OK, just a little bit worn.
> 
> Im surprized that they only have one ring.
> 
> ...





I would recommend taking the saw to a saw shop, before wasting money on a new piston and rings.

Let me know the part number, if you find one for those oil rings. :monkey:


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## WickedGood (Dec 19, 2011)

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0032/0472/products/pistons_numero_dos_004_medium.jpg


View attachment 212259


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## WickedGood (Dec 19, 2011)

View attachment 212274


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## In The Weeds (Dec 19, 2011)

Go for it man!
Don't you all think it may be time to ease up on the guy? Besides it seems sarcasm is wasted anyways.


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## WickedGood (Dec 20, 2011)

hpow do you post a full size picture?


Hey Calling all Experts. Judging from the color/ looks of this piston & ring what is happening?


View attachment 212356


View attachment 212357


View attachment 212358


View attachment 212359


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## justme23005 (Dec 20, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> hpow do you post a full size picture?
> 
> 
> Hey Calling all Experts. Judging from the color/ looks of this piston & ring what is happening?
> ...



from looking at the first pic. it looks like the ring is stuck in the groove.


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## WickedGood (Dec 20, 2011)

do you think all I would need to do is hit it with some fluid film to clean it up and put it back together?


Im trying to find new rings somehwere and not getting any replies from Echo or any of their dealers to my emails.


would NAPA auto parts have these rings?


http://www.arboristsite.com/attachments/chainsaw/212356d1324388140-013-jpg


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## justme23005 (Dec 20, 2011)

WickedGood said:


> do you think all I would need to do is hit it with some fluid film to clean it up and put it back together?
> 
> 
> Im trying to find new rings somehwere and not getting any replies from Echo or any of their dealers to my emails.
> ...




No, & No.

I would go on partstree.com and order a piston & ring..Echo P021012430 for $34.30 and a base gasket Echo V100000131 for $4.40 and pop it back together. Throw away whatever mix you were running in it, mix up some high test (preferrably non ethanol) and some Echo 2 stroke oil & run it. 

Some people here would free up the ring & reassemble. it might work fine.. it might not. probably would.. either way, it looks like you'll need a base gasket.


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## RTK (Dec 20, 2011)

I would not buy anything new until I cleaned up the piston and ring grove. Put it all back together, richen it up and see how it runs. From the pictures it looks like you had a lot of blow by from a stuck ring. I find you tend to stick rings from running a 2 stroke hot which is probably due to a lean condition.


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