# Glad I burn wood & not pellets



## Dirtboy (Mar 5, 2014)

Don't know how it is where you live, but there is a big shortage of wood pellets around here. All the stores have been out for awhile, and I noticed as they were getting close to the end of their supply they conveniently raised the price. I feel sorry for people that use them as a primary source of heat. Apparently manufacturers did not plan on this severe of a winter. This is the second time in the last 5 years there has been a shortage over here.


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## Woody912 (Mar 5, 2014)

Dirtboy said:


> Don't know how it is where you live, but there is a big shortage of wood pellets around here. All the stores have been out for awhile, and I noticed as they were getting close to the end of their supply they conveniently raised the price. I feel sorry for people that use them as a primary source of heat. Apparently manufacturers did not plan on this severe of a winter. This is the second time in the last 5 years there has been a shortage over here.


 

gone for over a month here


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## StihlFroling (Mar 5, 2014)

Are you talking about bagged at the store, or bulk delivery?


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## Dirtboy (Mar 5, 2014)

StihlFroling said:


> Are you talking about bagged at the store, or bulk delivery?



Both.


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## mainewoods (Mar 5, 2014)

I drove by several hardware stores the other day and they had plenty. Big signs out front - we have wood pellets. Wal Mart even has them, at least up here. I would think our state consisting of 90% + forest might have a little something to do with it.


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## jimbojango (Mar 5, 2014)

i'm not sure if there is a shortage here or not as i don't burn them. I have noticed if you "prebuy" them in the fall they give a pretty deep discount on them so they don't have to handle them and the frieght of them all winter. I know the manager at one store and he just hates dealing with them in general.


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## jinxx4ever (Mar 5, 2014)

my brother prebuys every year, then come spring if he hasnt' used them all, uses them day and nite as he doesn't want to store them all summer.


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## autoimage (Mar 5, 2014)

what are the advantages of pellets over wood? I don't know much about them


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## djones (Mar 5, 2014)

Convenience.


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## philoshop (Mar 5, 2014)

...and a stove with a self-feeding hopper can be controlled with a thermostat.


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## Oliver1655 (Mar 5, 2014)

Less mess. Easier to feed the hopper for those with bad backs than having to wrestle with larger splits. Drag a bag into a wagon, use a pitcher as a scoop.

When we get our house built we will be switch to a pellet stove for the house. I will still have wood stoves in the shop.


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## flotek (Mar 5, 2014)

I know guys who burned well over 5 tons this winter that's like 1300$ seems like not much savings to me ..I guess if your lazy or physically not able to load wood then makes sense . We have a shortage here in pa big time even the places that manufacture them are out. . The tsc the ace hardware and Home Depots are all out and when they get them in they sell too fast and stores now have a 10 bag maximum limit nobody can even buy a ton . My friend drove over 75 miles one way to get some and they had sold 13 tons in 2 hours after he called ..so by the time he arrived he got the last pallet and begged the manager .


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## dancan (Mar 5, 2014)

I've not heard of any shortage up here but this extended cold has some people trying to save where they can and a few people looking to make a buck where they can .
Home made mdf pellets .

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-buy-sell-other/bedford/wood-pellets/571376824?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## Oliver1655 (Mar 5, 2014)

Using pellets is a choice folks make for many reasons. (Consolidated from above.)
- Physically unable to handle splits.
- Have allergies to the dust, mold, certain species, ...
- Cleaner
- Less concerns of bringing in insects with the wood.
- Convenience - Able to to take of for a day or two & have the hopper tend the fire for them. Can fill the hopper at their convenience instead of the wood stove' shorter burn times.

There are quite a few members with pellet stoves who are very active firewood cutters. I don't know that I would call them lazy. I imagine half of them could match you cord for cord.


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## jimbojango (Mar 5, 2014)

I have a buddy in his 60's that was a pellet stove guy up until last year. He'd had both shoulders replaced and couldn't wield a chainsaw. He had burned wood up until he was 50 or so maybe longer and then made the pellet switch. Its NOT cheaper than firewood if you're cutting your own wood but it IS cheaper than propane or natural gas if you put the pencil to it. Besides that i could carry him 5 bags of pellets inside next to the stove and him or his wife could use a coffee can and dump them in and it lasted them 3 days in the cold and 5 days when it was warmer.

I have said i would NEVER burn them, but you know... if i had a full time job and had the money i would. I can't "afford" to cut wood when i can buy the crap and fill it once a day. 1 ton is equal to a cord of BTU's or fairly close the way we all figured it. $150 bucks a ton on preorder (or bulk like we can get here) isn't so high now is it? I can go work 3 hours of overtime and pay for a ton of wood instead of driving to my tree (10 minutes) cutting wood for 2 hours, loading the pickup and trailer for an hour, going home and splitting for 2 hours, and being worn the heck out.

Make dollars and sense yet?


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## TheLazyBFarm (Mar 5, 2014)

So what do the pellet guys do when the stores run out of pellets? Can they substitute wood in their pellet stoves or are they SOL?


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## jimbojango (Mar 5, 2014)

TheLazyBFarm said:


> So what do the pellet guys do when the stores run out of pellets? Can they substitute wood in their pellet stoves or are they SOL?


if they have the money up front in our area they buy a corn/pellet stove and usually burn pellets. But if push comes to shove they can shove corn straight out of the combine through them. Not real pretty when corn was $6 but now that its 4 its not so bad. The only complaint I've heard about corn is that it burns "about twice as much" to put the same heat out, no clue if that's true or if it was high moisture or anything further


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## Oliver1655 (Mar 5, 2014)

They do just like those that burn wood. Plan ahead & stock up during the summer specials with what they expect to burn + 15%. Then when the weather is bad they can just stay home & keep worm.


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## TheLazyBFarm (Mar 5, 2014)

So, a pellet stove *can't* burn wood?

If so, what's the difference between paying for pellets vs. propane/NG/oil/electricity???*



*For the obtuse, I'm being facetious here.


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## jimbojango (Mar 5, 2014)

TheLazyBFarm said:


> So, a pellet stove *can't* burn wood?
> 
> If so, what's the difference between paying for pellets vs. propane/NG/oil/electricity???*
> 
> ...


Insert link of website AS hates here" PM me and i'll hook you up

I think that tells you why people burn pellets.  Being facetious and all


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## hedge hog (Mar 5, 2014)

TheLazyBFarm said:


> So what do the pellet guys do when the stores run out of pellets? Can they substitute wood in their pellet stoves or are they SOL?


 they can burn corn, milo and wheat
the moisture need to be around 9%
burns a little dirtier than wood pellets ,,,, dump more ashes


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 5, 2014)

I bought a cord-wood stove because to make pellets they have to:
Haul the wood/waste to the processing plant
Process the wood/waste to make pellets in a factory
Haul the processed pellets to the store
Sell it to you at a profit.

That makes the cost of pellets more closely related to cost of energy/electricity/oil than I like.

Even if I can't cut wood myself, there is always somebody who is hungry with a truck and a chainsaw.

Cordwood is the ONLY source of heat that is truly a free market. Anybody with a truck, chainsaw and work ethic can participate. No processing plants, no large corporations, lots of competition. You will never get your BTUs more realistically priced. Period.


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## jimbojango (Mar 5, 2014)

MrWhoopee said:


> I bought a cord-wood stove because to make pellets they have to:
> Haul the wood/waste to the processing plant
> Process the wood/waste to make pellets in a factory
> Haul the processed pellets to the store
> ...


You've fell off the turnip wagon. i'm going to ATTEMPT to make this as not personal as possible... 

Why on earth would I burn wood by choice? it takes time, effort, a strong back and weak mind, a chainsaw, a splitter, a truck and that's just to get it. THEN you have to haul the crap into the house after its split and put it in a stove every couple hours all the time even at 4 am and then carry ashes out. The work involved in firewood isn't worth it if you make more than $15 an hour. You can LIKE cutting wood (most of the people on this site do) but going to work and working overtime pays for "alternative heat" (not wood) 9 times out of 10. The reason people burn wood is either a. they have lots of free time and are poor so they put the effort out, or b. they ENJOY cutting wood and not "paying the man" even though they are paying themselves to be "the man"

Why jump on someone for burning pellets? or LP, or natural gas or coal or whatever. You're source isn't better than any one elses if they aren't freezing to death. If you want to jump on someone about how they choose to spend their hard earned money maybe you should take a long look at yourself in the mirror. I'm all about economics (have a finance degree) and i'm here to tell you what i already said above. If i had a job (instead of CHOOSING to be a farmer and staying "poor") i wouldn't burn a stick of wood, i'd even give my stove to someone else and only heat with propane or electric. I choose to burn wood, i like cutting wood, i like having chainsaws that cost more collectively than my wife's car. 

BTW you remark about profit digs me pretty deep as well. Do you grow a garden and your own meat? if not I'm sticking it to you every time you go to the store. beating "the man" in 1 aspect of your life isn't such a big deal, beat him in all aspects and we'll talk.


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## Poindexter (Mar 6, 2014)

One advantage of pellet stoves I haven't seen mentioned is the cooler exhaust gasses can use a smaller diameter pipe, and in some jurisdictions you can pop a horizontal chimney out through a wall without having to cut a hole in the roof.

Pellets seem to have about the same BTU value per pound as well seasoned birch, 3000# to the cord, a ton and a half of pellets, 20M BTUS either way. A good volume of green season it yourself birch runs about $200 in spring and summer locally, a kinda skimpy cord of dry birch cordwood can fetch north of $500 in late winter.

So it comes down to your other options. How much is a bag of pellets near you? 75 bags at 40# each is 3000#, if they are $6.81 each it is the same price per BTU as buying #2 heating oil at $3.86/ gallon, but less convenient to use. If pellets are $4 per 40# bag they are cost competitive with buying some green birch and some seasoned birch, but more convenient to use.


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## autoimage (Mar 6, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> You've fell off the turnip wagon. i'm going to ATTEMPT to make this as not personal as possible...
> 
> Why on earth would I burn wood by choice? it takes time, effort, a strong back and weak mind, a chainsaw, a splitter, a truck and that's just to get it. THEN you have to haul the crap into the house after its split and put it in a stove every couple hours all the time even at 4 am and then carry ashes out. The work involved in firewood isn't worth it if you make more than $15 an hour. You can LIKE cutting wood (most of the people on this site do) but going to work and working overtime pays for "alternative heat" (not wood) 9 times out of 10. The reason people burn wood is either a. they have lots of free time and are poor so they put the effort out, or b. they ENJOY cutting wood and not "paying the man" even though they are paying themselves to be "the man"
> 
> ...



I thought you weren't going to make that personal...weak of mind really, poor really, youre the only one who put people down


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## autoimage (Mar 6, 2014)

when you buy a ton of pellets do they get delivered or do you need a truck capable of handling a ton and the ability to get it off the truck?


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## alleyyooper (Mar 6, 2014)

Was in HD the other day and the fellow wanted to return his stove less than 90 days old cause he couldn't find pellets for it any where in town. Don't know if they took it back or not. Were it me who had a pellet stove I'd buy a couple tons till I figured out what I needed per a normal year then add 10% more for bad years.

 Al


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## philoshop (Mar 6, 2014)

As a 'weak-minded' individual who heats with wood, kills his own food, and has a small garden, I try not to depend on anyone to take care of those things for me.
Heating my house is a priority for me when it's cold, so I cut wood rather than ordering fuel from someone who may or may not be able to deliver.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Mar 6, 2014)

why not make pellets from coal. it would give more BTU'S than wood and last a little longer


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## slowp (Mar 6, 2014)

A pellet stove has to have power. I've had a couple of them. The blower and auger need to operate. I guess you can add them to your generator list, or attach a battery. If you live where firewood is hard to come by, and your electricity doesn't go out, they are good and do throw out the heat. You must clean out the ash pan once a week if using good quality pellets, or twice if using pinier stuff. Both places I had the pellet stoves had local pellet mills so if you bought them in the fall, by the ton, it worked out. They can be stored in the garage and are cleaner and pile nicer than firewood. 

I now live where firewood is easy for me to get. I don't have to have the noise of a fan going, so would not consider anything else.


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## autoimage (Mar 6, 2014)

don't forget poor philo....poor and slow


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

jakewells said:


> why not make pellets from coal. it would give more BTU'S than wood and last a little longer



They already doo, and have the stove to burn them...

SR


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## flotek (Mar 6, 2014)

I've heated with pellets before I got my old wood furnace . I was burning 3 bags a day to keep an average house barely in the 60s which was no savings at all and we froze .. I sold it quick . A friend has one and went through 5 tons and likely another ton by the time it warms up around here. . 230$ a ton x6 =1,380$
Natural gas is cheaper and requires you to do nothing but set your thermostat . Even an efficient pellet burner in a well insulated house will use 2 bags a day so at 5$ bucks a bag that's ten. $ a day or. 300$ a month no special savings to be found certainly no savings compared to firewood. Even if you bought wood at 150$ a cord you'd be paying half what the pellet guys pay . You have 3 motors in a pellet burner and a power board .thats going to use more electric to increase your utility bill .and When the power goes out your family is going to freeze . The only time I see it bring a savings in cost I'd if you heated with fuel oil which is the worst most expensive way go heat a house or an old style heat pump


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

flotek said:


> You have 3 motors in a pellet burner and a power board .thats going to use more electric to increase your utility bill .and When the power goes out your family is going to freeze .



Doesn't your nat gas furnace have a fan in it too? That also requires power, even when the power goes out? Then your family is going to freeze too...

SR


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## johncinco (Mar 6, 2014)

All sold out around here. Stores get a truck load and lines form. Limits set on how many you can get, one place was 2 bags max per customer. 
Corn is $260 a ton, pellets $215. You get more BTUs out of a ton of corn, so it is like diesel vs gas.


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## stihly dan (Mar 6, 2014)

Dry wood is hard to come by now too. Pellets are not for me now, but they have there place just like everything. What works for one may not work for another. I don't think a $10,000 investment is for the poor. You can be frugal, economical and not be poor.


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## jimbojango (Mar 6, 2014)

philoshop said:


> As a 'weak-minded' individual who heats with wood, kills his own food, and has a small garden, I try not to depend on anyone to take care of those things for me.
> Heating my house is a priority for me when it's cold, so I cut wood rather than ordering fuel from someone who may or may not be able to deliver.


I didn't say you had to be weak minded to burn wood, i said either you were weak minded OR you CHOOSE the lifestyle of burning wood and that it was a hobby.


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## jgoodhart (Mar 6, 2014)

I live in central Pa. and pellets are hard to find. I have a outside wood burner and use a pellets stove when it's like 15F and below to help heat the house because my work days are 12 hours long and coming home to out of wood boiler isn't my kind of fun. If I didn't have my own trees for firewood I would be burning pellets full time. A lot less trouble and time invested. In my area of 10 houses 3 burn wood, 1 propane, 1 oil and 5 burn wood pellets.


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## spike60 (Mar 6, 2014)

Pellets are scarce around here also. Couple weeks ago, everyone was out. Then some places were able to get some but prices went up about $2 a bag from what they were. Nothing unique about a pellet shortage. Heck, there's also a firewood shortage around here. Mostly for folks who buy their wood. Buddy of mine has a decent size house. 2 woodstoves upstairs, plus a pellet stove in his man cave in the garage. We go on pellet runs of 10-20 bags at a time, mostly so we can ride around and hit some breakfast joints in the morning. (Or a pub if an afternoon run ) So he got a bit nervous when he was down to 3 bags and the local stops were all out. 

Don't think pellets should be thought of in terms of either good or bad. Just like anything else, they have their positives and negatives. The independence of firewood lies in the fact most of us have the ability to do the work and many of us get the wood for free. Not everyone can do that, and age may change that reality for some of us down the road. If I had to buy split wood, then buying pellets is an option that I would consider. Certainly would be better for me than buying oil. Move closer to urban areas, and naturally the abilty to procure firewood becomes more problematic, especially for the do-it-yourselfer. So, given different parameters, pellets can be more attractive to some folks.


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## Oliver1655 (Mar 6, 2014)

We plan to build a house this year. It will have a ground source heat pump but we will have a pellet stove for a backup - especially if the power is out. I have a generator we use to power the lights, fans/blower, well & a couple of space heaters for bathrooms.

I will continue to use wood to heat the shop. Wife has allergies & by eliminating using a wood stove in the house, we are eliminating a potential source of discomfort for her plust the rest of the list mentioned earlier.


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## stihly dan (Mar 6, 2014)

Oliver1655 said:


> We plan to build a house this year. It will have a ground source heat pump but we will have a pellet stove for a backup - especially if the power is out. I have a generator we use to power the lights, fans/blower, well & a couple of space heaters for bathrooms.
> 
> I will continue to use wood to heat the shop. Wife has allergies & by eliminating using a wood stove in the house, we are eliminating a potential source of discomfort for her plust the rest of the list mentioned earlier.



Do your research on the pellet stove you buy. I hear that SOME don't work on generator power as the boards can't take the fluctuation and lock out.


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## wndwlkr (Mar 6, 2014)

I've Spent $300.00 this year heating 2400 SF earth contact with pellets, & it looks like I'll have 5or6 bags left over. I would have to say we are happy with our pellet stove ! Might sound crazy but I'm ready to mow grass & plant garden.


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## Hddnis (Mar 7, 2014)

I ran a pellet stove for several years, even though I sell firewood, it was in the house when I moved in and I liked it. Exhaust fan bearing went out after a few years and so I switched to a woodstove. I later fixed the pellet stove and use it in my shop now. Running 24/7 for a full month the power costs me $35.00. I buy a couple tons of pellets in the summer for $139.00 a ton and that is plenty to keep the shop at 50° or higher all winter. When I want more heat I turn it up and it warms the shop up within an hour.

Per BTU pellets in the summer are cheaper than firewood. With the extended hopper I tend the pellet stove every three days, empty ash and add pellets. Once a month I shut it down and clean it all out, takes ten minutes at most; in a half hour from shutdown I'll have it relit and putting out heat.

Around these parts there is no shortage at all of pellets, we have three huge plants all within an hours drive. Prices here never hit $200.00 a ton and several places never went over $160.00. Even if they had I bought my pellets in the summer and I have 3/4 of a ton left. I'll still pick up two ton next summer, leftovers just get added to the stash.



Mr. HE


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

Before i bought a wood stove, my electric bill would run over $350 per month for about 4 months during the winter. about half that running the ac in the summer. After putting in the wood stove, my first electric bill was a little over $100. I equate that to about $1000 in savings/ year by burning wood. A lot of my wood is free, except for my chainsaw and time. Hard to put a price on my saws since I usually trade or barter when it comes to aquireing equipment, but I owned a chainsaw before I did a wood stove so its not like i went out and bought one just to cut my firewood. I probably run $20 or $30 worth of gas thru my saws cutting and bucking the wood and maybe another $50 or $75 in fuel for my truck and dump trailer. Add another $25 worth of fuel for my splitter. So I am around $150 or so to secure my firewood. Saving now are around $850 a year to burn wood versus electricity. I doubt very much I can heat my house all winter for $150 worth of pellets, that I still have to haul home and feed into the stove. Now granted, I sometimes pay $400 for a log truck load of logs which cuts down on what i actually save by burning wood, but a log truck load usually lasts me more than one heating season, maybe not quite 2 winters when they are as cold as this last one has been. I havent figured in to my cost any of my time, but i work my wood when its convient, I dont schedule a specific time to gather the wood. Someone said it doesnt make sense to use wood if you make more than $15 hour at your real job. Well, I make almost twice that on my real job, I dont see any real connection between what you make and when it makes sense to burn wood for heat. Money saved is the same as money earned to me. And the remark about a Financial degree, I do have one in business, but it doesnt take a genius to do grade school math. Where do some of these remarks come from anyways. They certainly didnt add any information of value to this thread.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 7, 2014)

stihly dan said:


> Do your research on the pellet stove you buy. I hear that SOME don't work on generator power as the boards can't take the fluctuation and lock out.



That's ANOTHER reason I bought a Honda "inverter" generator, they have the cleanest sign wav, and even the pickiest putters ect. run just fine on the electricity they produce.

SR


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Before i bought a wood stove, my electric bill would run over $350 per month for about 4 months during the winter. about half that running the ac in the summer. After putting in the wood stove, my first electric bill was a little over $100. I equate that to about $1000 in savings/ year by burning wood. A lot of my wood is free, except for my chainsaw and time. Hard to put a price on my saws since I usually trade or barter when it comes to aquireing equipment, but I owned a chainsaw before I did a wood stove so its not like i went out and bought one just to cut my firewood. I probably run $20 or $30 worth of gas thru my saws cutting and bucking the wood and maybe another $50 or $75 in fuel for my truck and dump trailer. Add another $25 worth of fuel for my splitter. So I am around $150 or so to secure my firewood. Saving now are around $850 a year to burn wood versus electricity. I doubt very much I can heat my house all winter for $150 worth of pellets, that I still have to haul home and feed into the stove. Now granted, I sometimes pay $400 for a log truck load of logs which cuts down on what i actually save by burning wood, but a log truck load usually lasts me more than one heating season, maybe not quite 2 winters when they are as cold as this last one has been. I havent figured in to my cost any of my time, but i work my wood when its convient, I dont schedule a specific time to gather the wood. Someone said it doesnt make sense to use wood if you make more than $15 hour at your real job. Well, I make almost twice that on my real job, I dont see any real connection between what you make and when it makes sense to burn wood for heat. Money saved is the same as money earned to me. And the remark about a Financial degree, I do have one in business, but it doesnt take a genius to do grade school math. Where do some of these remarks come from anyways. They certainly didnt add any information of value to this thread.




If you make $30 an hour and can't figure out that you're losing money you have a real problem with math. go work 3 hours of overtime instead of cutting wood and buy it, you'll SAVE money.

The underlying principle was that you don't cut wood to save money because you could go to work instead and buy it and actually make a profit doing so. You choose to cut wood and that's wonderful and great, but it is costing you real dollars just like it costs me real dollars to cut it instead of working overtime


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## jrider (Mar 7, 2014)

$15 an hour...how long does it take you to process a cord of wood?


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

jrider said:


> $15 an hour...how long does it take you to process a cord of wood?


I already went through this somewhere above, but i'll make another go at it and even exclude driving to and from which for most people adds at least another hour.
cutting a cord of wood 2 hours. loading cord of wood in truck and trailer about an hour, drive home, get splitter out and split for 2 hours minimum and stacking. Taking chains to be sharpened or doing it yourself adds another half our, spend $10 on gas to split the wood, spend a couple bucks on gas for your saws.
5 1/2 hours of labor. $82.50
$12 in direct fuel costs
Owning said truck and trailer and possible a tractor, and the splitter and the chainsaws... $50 a cord minimum especially for the weekend warriors.
looks like 144.50 per cord of wood in costs to me, i can buy 1 for $150 where i live (or less) and they deliver and stack it. So for $5.50 a cord i can buy my wood instead of cutting it without including any vehicle fuel or my time of driving.

You also have to spend time hauling the wood inside and then hauling ashes out. Its not a zero sum game. Its dirty, the bark gets everywhere inside and out, you have a pile of crap around your splitter, your truck gets beat up in the bed, you ruin tires ect. ect. Its just not a free game.

Like i said before, you CHOOSE to burn wood (as do i) but it has a real cost, and an indirect cost. The fact i can get my own fuel is cool and awesome and makes me feel good about it and it gets some tree's out of my pastures and makes room for more grass for my cows but it still costs me. 

But hey, the ladies love the man arms and i don't have to buy a gym membership


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## spike60 (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> If you make $30 an hour and can't figure out that you're losing money you have a real problem with math. go work 3 hours of overtime instead of cutting wood and buy it, you'll SAVE money.
> 
> The underlying principle was that you don't cut wood to save money because you could go to work instead and buy it and actually make a profit doing so. You choose to cut wood and that's wonderful and great, but it is costing you real dollars just like it costs me real dollars to cut it instead of working overtime



You have a little problem with math, and your posts here are needlessly abrasive towards guys who don't see it your way. You have your own reality, which works fine for you. But insisting that your reality applies to everyone else here is obnoxious.

Not everyone "chooses" to burn wood in the context you imply, nor do they view it as a fun/recreational activity as many of us do here. For some, it is the only viable economic alternative they have. What makes you think that everyone can "choose' to work overtime to supplement their heating bill? Most people who burn wood do it specifically to save money. According to you, all of us who cut our own aren't really saving anything? Really? How many guys on this forum you think will agree with that logic?

The flaw in your computations is centered around the "what's your time worth" thinking. This is only valid if you spend every waking moment working your regular job or doing side jobs. To suggest that those of us who cut wood in our SPARE TIME are losing money because we could be working is BS.

Whatever works for you is cool. But what works for the rest of us does in fact work regardless of whether or not if fits within your narrow viewpoint. You should lighten up a little bit here.


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> If you make $30 an hour and can't figure out that you're losing money you have a real problem with math. go work 3 hours of overtime instead of cutting wood and buy it, you'll SAVE money.
> 
> The underlying principle was that you don't cut wood to save money because you could go to work instead and buy it and actually make a profit doing so. You choose to cut wood and that's wonderful and great, but it is costing you real dollars just like it costs me real dollars to cut it instead of working overtime



Sir, I have been doing what I am doing for about 38yrs. I figured out a long time ago if I couldnt make it on regular wages, then a little bit of overtime isnt going to help. It all comes down to managing your money wisely. Working overtime is still consuming my time. Time I can spend doing something else, cutting wood for instance. If the money I make is simply handed to someone else to do work I could have done myself, just how do you figure You or anybody else saved anything. Time gone working overtime, money gone buying firewood, its a no profit situation. There is nothing wrong with my math, I save $850 a year cutting my own wood. At $27 an hour at overtime rate is $40.50 per hour, $850/ $40.50= 20.98 hrs overtime i would have to work just to break even. You might want to revisit your own math. The bottom line is how much money is actually in my bank account while I'm watching the wood burn..


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## kyle1! (Mar 7, 2014)

Overtime???....Some don't get OT ever and why would one want to spend more time at a place that one may not truly enjoy. Plus working at $15/hr means take home pay is close to $10. I just lost some money working for someone else.

I agree it cost something to heat with wood but not having to rely on what another person or entity charges is priceless.

Someday I will heat with wood....I just know I will.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 7, 2014)

Before I bought the wood stove we looked seriously at a pellet stove, but since we did not have a source of free pellets and did have woods the choice was to go with wood made sense for us. I would really like to have a pellet stove as back up but cannot find a good place to hook one in. I have friends that use them and have been impressed with how well they work - they're totally different in character compared to a wood stove, but also quite nice. 

It's gotten so that you cannot have a reasonable discussion about anything around here, even topics that should interest many and don't seem remotely controversial. The intolerance and inability to communicate without everything turning into a pissing contest is really tiring. This thread was about the scarcity of pellets and about pellet stoves - WTH?


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## Dirtboy (Mar 7, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> Before I bought the wood stove we looked seriously at a pellet stove, but since we did not have a source of free pellets and did have woods the choice was to go with wood made sense for us. I would really like to have a pellet stove as back up but cannot find a good place to hook one in. I have friends that use them and have been impressed with how well they work - they're totally different in character compared to a wood stove, but also quite nice.
> 
> It's gotten so that you cannot have a reasonable discussion about anything around here, even topics that should interest many and don't seem remotely controversial. The intolerance and inability to communicate without everything turning into a pissing contest is really tiring. This thread was about the scarcity of pellets and about pellet stoves - WTH?



Thanks ChrisPA, -I wasn't trying to start a wood vs pellet war, was just wondering if the shortage of pellets was all over or just local.


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## autoimage (Mar 7, 2014)

I don't know about you but if someone says I have a weak mind for heating with firewood im gonna say something


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

autoimage said:


> I don't know about you but if someone says I have a weak mind for heating with firewood im gonna say something


No one said you had a weak mind. Someone said you either have a weak mind or you enjoy doing it. You're weak minded if you can't figure out the cost of doing something you think is "free." 

No one in this thread ever said that cutting wood because you liked it was a sin, or stupid, or anything else. Someone (me) pointed out there is no such thing as a free lunch and almost everyone that has read my posts can see with any logic that firewood isn't free.

If you cut wood because you like to then its great and wonderful, nothing wrong with some good exercise and hard work, but if you do it because its free then you should read my posts that clearly prove otherwise.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

kyle1! said:


> Overtime???....Some don't get OT ever and why would one want to spend more time at a place that one may not truly enjoy. Plus working at $15/hr means take home pay is close to $10. I just lost some money working for someone else.
> 
> I agree it cost something to heat with wood but not having to rely on what another person or entity charges is priceless.
> 
> Someday I will heat with wood....I just know I will.


In your own post you agree exactly with what i've said in about 6 posts now. You do it because you enjoy cutting wood not because you're saving money hand over fist.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Sir, I have been doing what I am doing for about 38yrs. I figured out a long time ago if I couldnt make it on regular wages, then a little bit of overtime isnt going to help. It all comes down to managing your money wisely. Working overtime is still consuming my time. Time I can spend doing something else, cutting wood for instance. If the money I make is simply handed to someone else to do work I could have done myself, just how do you figure You or anybody else saved anything. Time gone working overtime, money gone buying firewood, its a no profit situation. There is nothing wrong with my math, I save $850 a year cutting my own wood. At $27 an hour at overtime rate is $40.50 per hour, $850/ $40.50= 20.98 hrs overtime i would have to work just to break even. You might want to revisit your own math. The bottom line is how much money is actually in my bank account while I'm watching the wood burn..


Totally agree with you. I'd rather spend 21 hours cutting firewood for "free" then working for the man myself. You totally made my point valid


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

spike60 said:


> You have a little problem with math, and your posts here are needlessly abrasive towards guys who don't see it your way. You have your own reality, which works fine for you. But insisting that your reality applies to everyone else here is obnoxious.
> 
> Not everyone "chooses" to burn wood in the context you imply, nor do they view it as a fun/recreational activity as many of us do here. For some, it is the only viable economic alternative they have. What makes you think that everyone can "choose' to work overtime to supplement their heating bill? Most people who burn wood do it specifically to save money. According to you, all of us who cut our own aren't really saving anything? Really? How many guys on this forum you think will agree with that logic?
> 
> ...



The How many guys on this forum agree with my logic thought... Probably 90% of them. 
There is no free lunch, there is no free firewood.

This thread hijack actually started over someone on about page 2 jumping the OP for even asking about pellets and made this a wood vs. pellet war. The entire point of my posts was to point out the economic feasibility of your thinking that wood was "cheaper" than pellets. I'm quite willing to help someone when they need help but i'm not going to be dumb enough to not know an opportunity cost exists. You cut wood to stay warm, you go to work to feed yourself and have a house. If you like work more than cutting wood you can buy pellets (or wood) and be a warm happy little clam for the same amount of overall work.


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## jrider (Mar 7, 2014)

I sell firewood - 100 cords this past year and burn all the uglies, partial rotten, odds and ends in my owb. Part of the issue people are having with your posts is that the numbers you used don't apply to everyone in here- they apply to your situation. Also, because just about everyone around here is a hardwood snob I actually have had people deliver cut pine and its gone as far as one guy who wanted to get rid of pine so badly he cut, split, and helped me load close to two cords of it all for free. 
Was there a big upfront cost with my owb? Heck yeah but with the price of oil, it's paid for itself in 3 years.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

jrider said:


> I sell firewood - 100 cords this past year and burn all the uglies, partial rotten, odds and ends in my owb. Part of the issue people are having with your posts is that the numbers you used don't apply to everyone in here- they apply to your situation. Also, because just about everyone around here is a hardwood snob I actually have had people deliver cut pine and its gone as far as one guy who wanted to get rid of pine so badly he cut, split, and helped me load close to two cords of it all for free.
> Was there a big upfront cost with my owb? Heck yeah but with the price of oil, it's paid for itself in 3 years.


right on!


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> Totally agree with you. I'd rather spend 21 hours cutting firewood for "free" then working for the man myself. You totally made my point valid


 I have in no way made any of your points valid. I posted what i did to support the economics of burning wood, whether split wood or pellets, versus the economics of burning other fuels, ie propane, natural gas, oil. I only mention how foolish an ideal it was to justify buying wood versus cutting yourself only if you make over $15 per hr. And then you tried to justify your position because you have some sort of financial degree, which I am seriously beginning to doubt. The 21 hrs, would only be valid if someone was earning similar to what I earn on my regular job, but the fact is if someone is only making $15 perhr, the actual overtime they would have to invest would nearly be double the amount I would need to work. A dollar saved is a dollar earned, how much one makes is not relevant. Actual cost of the wood, whether bought or if you gather yourself, is only relevant if it will save you or cost you money. Will burning wood, in my case, save me more money that it cost, the answer is absolutely. Can I gather the wood cheaper than I can buy it absolutely. Can I save money on energy cost if I burn wood, again, absolutely. Your arguments are not validated by my statements in anyway form or fashion, In fact, I think we are in total disagreement. I will not be baited anymore with this foolish nonsense.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> I have in no way made any of your points valid. I posted what i did to support the economics of burning wood, whether split wood or pellets, versus the economics of burning other fuels, ie propane, natural gas, oil. I only mention how foolish an ideal it was to justify buying wood versus cutting yourself only if you make over $15 per hr. And then you tried to justify your position because you have some sort of financial degree, which I am seriously beginning to doubt. The 21 hrs, would only be valid if someone was earning similar to what I earn on my regular job, but the fact is if someone is only making $15 perhr, the actual overtime they would have to invest would nearly be double the amount I would need to work. A dollar saved is a dollar earned, how much one makes is not relevant. Actual cost of the wood, whether bought or if you gather yourself, is only relevant if it will save you or cost you money. Will burning wood, in my case, save me more money that it cost, the answer is absolutely. Can I gather the wood cheaper than I can buy it absolutely. Can I save money on energy cost if I burn wood, again, absolutely. Your arguments are not validated by my statements in anyway form or fashion, In fact, I think we are in total disagreement. I will not be baited anymore with this foolish nonsense.


Prove to me with some dollar figures how you can gather it cheaper than you can buy it.


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

I posted my numbers, show us how your numbers work out.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> I posted my numbers, show us how your numbers work out.


quoted from page 3 this morning #48

I already went through this somewhere above, but i'll make another go at it and even exclude driving to and from which for most people adds at least another hour.
cutting a cord of wood 2 hours. loading cord of wood in truck and trailer about an hour, drive home, get splitter out and split for 2 hours minimum and stacking. Taking chains to be sharpened or doing it yourself adds another half our, spend $10 on gas to split the wood, spend a couple bucks on gas for your saws.
5 1/2 hours of labor. $82.50
$12 in direct fuel costs
Owning said truck and trailer and possible a tractor, and the splitter and the chainsaws... $50 a cord minimum especially for the weekend warriors.
looks like 144.50 per cord of wood in costs to me, i can buy 1 for $150 where i live (or less) and they deliver and stack it. So for $5.50 a cord i can buy my wood instead of cutting it without including any vehicle fuel or my time of driving.

You also have to spend time hauling the wood inside and then hauling ashes out. Its not a zero sum game. Its dirty, the bark gets everywhere inside and out, you have a pile of crap around your splitter, your truck gets beat up in the bed, you ruin tires ect. ect. Its just not a free game.

Like i said before, you CHOOSE to burn wood (as do i) but it has a real cost, and an indirect cost. The fact i can get my own fuel is cool and awesome and makes me feel good about it and it gets some tree's out of my pastures and makes room for more grass for my cows but it still costs me. 

But hey, the ladies love the man arms and i don't have to buy a gym membership


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## flotek (Mar 7, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Doesn't your nat gas furnace have a fan in it too? That also requires power, even when the power goes out? Then your family is going to freeze too...
> 
> SR


Fire log sets don't use any electricity and have a thermostat - just sayin


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> I posted my numbers, show us how your numbers work out.


And in the exact same post, i prove why pellets can work out without doing ANY of the work required to go gather the crap, or propane ect. $144.50 a cord excluding the driving (because you have to drive to get the pellets as well) isn't free by a long shot.


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## jwilly (Mar 7, 2014)

Part of the pellet shortage is caused by the amount that we export to Europe, pellets are a big part of the forest products export market. They actually use them to fuel power plants over there. In 2011 over 2 million tons were exported.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

jwilly said:


> Part of the pellet shortage is caused by the amount that we export to Europe, pellets are a big part of the forest products export market. They actually use them to fuel power plants over there.


Kind of like our propane shortage? lol


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## c5rulz (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> i'm not sure if there is a shortage here or not as i don't burn them. I have noticed if you "prebuy" them in the fall they give a pretty deep discount on them so they don't have to handle them and the frieght of them all winter. I know the manager at one store and he just hates dealing with them in general.


 

Well that is kind one dimensional thinking. Freight is freight. Discounts are given on pre ordered so a business can PLAN anticipated demand and have adequate supply and procure discounts due to guaranteed volume in the future.


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## c5rulz (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> if they have the money up front in our area they buy a corn/pellet stove and usually burn pellets. But if push comes to shove they can shove corn straight out of the combine through them. Not real pretty when corn was $6 but now that its 4 its not so bad. The only complaint I've heard about corn is that it burns "about twice as much" to put the same heat out, no clue if that's true or if it was high moisture or anything further


 

That is simply not true.

Corn must be at the right moisture and be clean of dust and "bees wings" in order for the auger of a corn stove to work reliably.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Clean+corn+is+vital+in+corn+stoves.-a0183981954


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## c5rulz (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> You've fell off the turnip wagon. i'm going to ATTEMPT to make this as not personal as possible...
> 
> Why on earth would I burn wood by choice? it takes time, effort, a strong back and weak mind, a chainsaw, a splitter, a truck and that's just to get it. THEN you have to haul the crap into the house after its split and put it in a stove every couple hours all the time even at 4 am and then carry ashes out. The work involved in firewood isn't worth it if you make more than $15 an hour. You can LIKE cutting wood (most of the people on this site do) but going to work and working overtime pays for "alternative heat" (not wood) 9 times out of 10. The reason people burn wood is either a. they have lots of free time and are poor so they put the effort out, or b. they ENJOY cutting wood and not "paying the man" even though they are paying themselves to be "the man"
> 
> ...


 


Do you ever stop yammering?


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## c5rulz (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> If you make $30 an hour and can't figure out that you're losing money you have a real problem with math. go work 3 hours of overtime instead of cutting wood and buy it, you'll SAVE money.
> 
> The underlying principle was that you don't cut wood to save money because you could go to work instead and buy it and actually make a profit doing so. You choose to cut wood and that's wonderful and great, but it is costing you real dollars just like it costs me real dollars to cut it instead of working overtime


 

Working for hourly wages really cuts an individuals ability to earn a lot of money.


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## c5rulz (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> But hey, the ladies love the man arms and i don't have to buy a gym membership


 

Please post pics of your significant other and I am not talking about your hand.opcorn:


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> quoted from page 3 this morning #48
> 
> I already went through this somewhere above, but i'll make another go at it and even exclude driving to and from which for most people adds at least another hour.
> cutting a cord of wood 2 hours. loading cord of wood in truck and trailer about an hour, drive home, get splitter out and split for 2 hours minimum and stacking. Taking chains to be sharpened or doing it yourself adds another half our, spend $10 on gas to split the wood, spend a couple bucks on gas for your saws.
> ...


 Do you even know how to figure out your cost? 

Read your post. Do away with the second half of it about hauling in and out, you will do that whether you cut your own or buy it. Pellets are cleaner, but you also have to haul them in and ashes out, still a wash. 
Now lets look at your other numbers
$50 cord minimum for the truck and chainsaws, and splitter. Really?. The cost of these items should be amortized over the life of the equipment. How much I use my truck for getting wood, couple of hours per year. I gave $5000 for my used truck and it will last me probably 10 years of getting wood and hauling off the garbage, In fact i have already owned it since 99 so I am close to 14 years plus what ever additional time i get out of it. Thats $500 a year for my truck. A normal work year has 2816 hrs of normal 8hr days. Thats the time I might drive my truck, but sometimes it sits and other times I drive outside the normal 8 hrs. Anyways, That means I use my truck for obtaining wood less than 1% of the time each year. $500x.01=$5. So much for your $50 minimum, it going to take a lot of other cost to reach your numbers. Dont think tags and insurance will get you there, but you should already know what you pay for those items. Chainsaws and splitters last for years as well and therefore should be amortized the same as your truck and any other equipment you use.

You figure your labor is worth $82.50 for 5.5 hrs of work. Or $15 prhr. Well if your going to work over time to make that 82.50 you will need to work right at 4hrs. A portion of that is taxable so it will take you closer to your actual 5 1/2 hrs to make the money you can save tax free if you do the work yourself. By the way, taxes, are a real direct cost. 

Now, your own admission of it costing you $5.50 more per cord to buy the wood instead of cutting it yourself. You figured money for your time and cost to cut yourself, , so you where paid to cut the wood,, yet you say it cost you an extra $5.50 a cord to buy and claim a savings. Really? I am already tired of this. Your Math doesnt even work when you do it, and I dont have the patience to deal with you further.

Listen, everybodies cost is going to be different, and I will agree, everyone needs to be able to figure their own cost before they can make the decision as to whether to buy wood or cut their own, or maybe even just pay their electric bill. But you sir are living in a world of fantasy, you cant figure your own cost, and chastise others decisions to cut wood instead of buying it. This thread has gotten way off topic and I allowed you to drag me in a foolish debate you are not prepared for. 
My last post on this subject


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

c5rulz said:


> Please post pics of your significant other and I am not talking about your hand.opcorn:


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## Cpjlube (Mar 7, 2014)

My furnace burns hotter with corn than pellets. Price is what drove me to pellets. Not heat. 
I just use it to heat the shop so it's not my primary heat for the house. But it's pretty convenient. Less time tending it. And I can go to work for 12 hours and not come home to a cold building. With a wood stove I would be starting over. 
In order to reliably get over 12 hours you get into the OWB market.


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## stihly dan (Mar 7, 2014)

I have/had 40 cords css. At around $300 dry cord HERE, that's $12,000. Had the truck, had the saw, had the maul. Diesel for truck $1,000 should be more than enough. $500 gas/oil mix, chains again more than enough. $10,500 profit over 2 1/2 yrs of a bad economy. The time spent there was no way to work, as there was no work over 40, not always 40. So I made around $4k a year tax free on my time that I would have been in front of the boob tube or computer. Now things are getting busy to work over time and no heating bills for a higher income to expense ratio for the next few years. I could not do this with any other form of heat.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Do you even know how to figure out your cost?
> 
> Read your post. Do away with the second half of it about hauling in and out, you will do that whether you cut your own or buy it. Pellets are cleaner, but you also have to haul them in and ashes out, still a wash.
> Now lets look at your other numbers
> ...


wanna bet? *gets out more bait* 

If you make $15 an hour you don't pay taxes unless you're single and have a bad accountant that can't write off your chainsaw fetish because you don't even sell a cord or two a year to write all of it off. You pay medicare and social security tax and thats it. Your good friend uncle sam refunds you at the end of the year for all your taxes you've paid in if that's all your household income is. so lets say more like 7.5% (unless you're self employed like myself and then i DO pay self employment tax at 14% or 16% or whatever the heck it is) and then you're STILL driving to cut your wood instead of having it delivered. You're still not winning with me. I said the $5.50 to buy it was a savings because I didn't have to stack it or drive to get it.

Your amortization argument FURTHER feeds my point. If you're writing it off over time are you actually realizing those savings with your uncle... uncle sam?


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

stihly dan said:


> I have/had 40 cords css. At around $300 dry cord HERE, that's $12,000. Had the truck, had the saw, had the maul. Diesel for truck $1,000 should be more than enough. $500 gas/oil mix, chains again more than enough. $10,500 profit over 2 1/2 yrs of a bad economy. The time spent there was no way to work, as there was no work over 40, not always 40. So I made around $4k a year tax free on my time that I would have been in front of the boob tube or computer. Now things are getting busy to work over time and no heating bills for a higher income to expense ratio for the next few years. I could not do this with any other form of heat.


atta boy! I like that you actually posted your figures and had a legitimate way of prioritizing it. I'm not 100% sure why you "couldn't work" but jobs were (and are) hard to come by. Using your free time in this scenario was great and made you a lot of extra dollars and probably even more in heat savings over the next few years when times will be good and you don't have to miss work to go cut it.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

c5rulz said:


> That is simply not true.
> 
> Corn must be at the right moisture and be clean of dust and "bees wings" in order for the auger of a corn stove to work reliably.
> 
> http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Clean corn is vital in corn stoves.-a0183981954


In our region of the world when you cut corn it IS clean out of the combine and goes into the bin clean. Flooded corn never gets cut and becomes an insurance claim. We must not know much about farming to set a combine to blow what little dust there is off so it feeds. Called my buddy that burns corn and he steadfastly says 8% moisture corn at $4 makes sense and $6 does not.


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

Best you can do?


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## stihly dan (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> atta boy! I like that you actually posted your figures and had a legitimate way of prioritizing it. I'm not 100% sure why you "couldn't work" but jobs were (and are) hard to come by. Using your free time in this scenario was great and made you a lot of extra dollars and probably even more in heat savings over the next few years when times will be good and you don't have to miss work to go cut it.



I worked 40 most of the time but a bunch of 34/35 too. When there are no commercial buildings going up there are no hvac units getting installed, or people not repairing broken ones.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Best you can do?


it was a little bait.. i got a little response, thought you were done with it... need more bait?


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

stihly dan said:


> I worked 40 most of the time but a bunch of 34/35 too. When there are no commercial buildings going up there are no hvac units getting installed, or people not repairing broken ones.


right on. So would you agree you "pre-bought" your wood by doing the work when you had nothing else going on? your cost per cord is downright cheap too even if you did figure some labor in. 

Isn't it sacrilegious for the HVAC boys to cut/burn wood btw?


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

lmbrman said:


> Is that an adams apple under that scarf?


I'm not sure she'd like to hear you ask that to her face. but no adams apple  Real boobies too, i can't get her to get the fake ones


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> wanna bet? *gets out more bait*
> 
> If you make $15 an hour you don't pay taxes unless you're single and have a bad accountant that can't write off your chainsaw fetish because you don't even sell a cord or two a year to write all of it off. You pay medicare and social security tax and thats it. Your good friend uncle sam refunds you at the end of the year for all your taxes you've paid in if that's all your household income is. so lets say more like 7.5% (unless you're self employed like myself and then i DO pay self employment tax at 14% or 16% or whatever the heck it is) and then you're STILL driving to cut your wood instead of having it delivered. You're still not winning with me. I said the $5.50 to buy it was a savings because I didn't have to stack it or drive to get it.
> 
> Your amortization argument FURTHER feeds my point. If you're writing it off over time are you actually realizing those savings with your uncle... uncle sam?





jimbojango said:


> it was a little bait.. i got a little response, thought you were done with it... need more bait?



Are you really such a glutten for punishment. You say you can cut wood for $144.50, factoring your labor and all other cost. This includes stacking and driving already in your numbers, you are paying $5.50 for a convience because you are to lazy to do it yourself. Even your $5.50 number is wrong, its much more than that.. You claim 5.5hrs to do the work yourself. Wood cost you $150 if you buy it, that means at $15 perhr wage , it took you 10hrs to actually make enough money to pay for the wood. Now you are at $5.50 in cash and an additional 10hrs of labor at straight time, or 6.6hrs of overtime wages. I hr of overtime or $22.50 plus your extra $5.50. Your lazy streak really cost you and extra hr of work and $28 of cash. The numbers just keep getting worse for you. 

Be careful with your bait, you might catch a shark


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## hedge hog (Mar 7, 2014)

I wish corn would go to 6$ a bushel !!!!
we got a lot to sell but don't want to give it away at that price.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

hedge hog said:


> I wish corn would go to 6$ a bushel !!!!
> we got a lot to sell but don't want to give it away at that price.


i have 25000 bushels of it... my cows sure seem to like their ration everyday... we all thought we'd get rich and see how that turned out for us?


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Are you really such a glutten for punishment. You say you can cut wood for $144.50, factoring your labor and all other cost. This includes stacking and driving already in your numbers, you are paying $5.50 for a convience because you are to lazy to do it yourself. Even your $5.50 number is wrong, its much more than that.. You claim 5.5hrs to do the work yourself. Wood cost you $150 if you buy it, that means at $15 perhr wage , it took you 10hrs to actually make enough money to pay for the wood. Now you are at $5.50 in cash and an additional 10hrs of labor at straight time, or 6.6hrs of overtime wages. I hr of overtime or $22.50 plus your extra $5.50. Your lazy streak really cost you and extra hr of work and $28 of cash. The numbers just keep getting worse for you.
> 
> Be careful with your bait, you might catch a shark


my numbers DIDN'T include driving, it included stacking AT THE PLACE IT WAS SPLIT. i think you're going to win because you're making my head hurt, but we'll see who trolls who by the time we're done. I did include the fuel, truck, splitter and saws. You either have rocks in your head or don't have the mental capacity to formulate a price or you just are to uneducated. Something doesn't allow you to wrap your brain around any concept except that "i go to the woods, i cut wood, i take it home, i burn it"


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> quoted from page 3 this morning #48
> 
> I already went through this somewhere above, but i'll make another go at it and even exclude driving to and from which for most people adds at least another hour.
> cutting a cord of wood 2 hours. loading cord of wood in truck and trailer about an hour, *drive home*, get splitter out and split for 2 hours minimum and* stacking.*


You cant even remember what you wrote. You claimed to exclude driving and then added drive home and stacking. Real math and facts has a tendency to make ones head hurt doesnt it.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> You cant even remember what you wrote. You claimed to exclude driving and then added drive home and stacking. Real math and facts has a tendency to make ones head hurt doesnt it.


i said drive home (didn't put an hour figure on that, excluded on purpose). Split and stack 2 hours. the splitting and stacking of a cord was 2 hours and was included, the driving home amount of time was omitted as EVERYONE has a different drive home. the raw numbers are fairly close on the cutting and loading the truck as an average, the splitting with a hydraulic splitter and stacking are fairly average numbers. Driving was not included TO or FROM.


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

How many cows do you own? Beef or Milk? 25000 bushel, what is that in tons. Bushel is 56lbs correct?


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> How many cows do you own? Beef or Milk? 25000 bushel, what is that in tons. Bushel is 56lbs correct?


50 and about 3 times that many yearlings on wheat. Beef cows and sheep and a few goats. 56 lbs in a perfect world yes. I'm sure 15k bushels will go to market. Million and a half pounds or so. Some of it is 4 years old in theory because I was trying to avoid paying taxes but since the market fell out the storage is killing me. My coop will profit more than me on this one unless I feed it up.


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

Could you not get a bagger and sell it as corn fuel. I guess shipping would be the killer. 25000bushels is about 700tons, $100grand.


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Could you not get a bagger and sell it as corn fuel. I guess shipping would be the killer. 25000bushels is about 700tons, $100grand.


Eeeeeh. Probably. But I can sell all of it and get 100k without doing anything and I don't think my coop really wants to give me that much corn back lol. I collected insurance on the crops and lost my butt so bad that what I have left will barely make a balloon payment I have coming. 

BTW I think bagging it as fuel corn and selling it for 200 a ton would make a killing even paying freight. If the market existed.


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## Holtby (Mar 7, 2014)

TheLazyBFarm said:


> So what do the pellet guys do when the stores run out of pellets? Can they substitute wood in their pellet stoves or are they SOL?


I've always wondered about the SOL thing too with pellets. My brother had a corn stove for yrs. but he didn't run it this season? I hate being at the mercy of a manufacture's supply and demand


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## Holtby (Mar 7, 2014)

It smacks of the "Propane Highs????" this season


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## muddstopper (Mar 7, 2014)

Deer corn around here is $9 for 50lbs. I dont have a clue as to what corn fuel sells for, dont think i have ever seen it. I havent researched any markets, but $9 for 50lbs is better than the $6 a bushel you folks are wishing for. Got to be a way to get a better than $4 bushel price out of it.


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## hedge hog (Mar 7, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> i have 25000 bushels of it... my cows sure seem to like their ration everyday... we all thought we'd get rich and see how that turned out for us?


 we have that much in the coop but the storage will eat it up before too long .
we did about 12,000 bushel of corn in a grain bag along with a lot of wheat and soybean.
we are trying to get away from coop as much as we can.
and for getting rich,,,,,, look at the coop's


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## Hddnis (Mar 7, 2014)

Wow! This thread sure blew up!


Mr. HE


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## jimbojango (Mar 7, 2014)

hedge hog said:


> we have that much in the coop but the storage will eat it up before too long .
> we did about 12,000 bushel of corn in a grain bag along with a lot of wheat and soybean.
> we are trying to get away from coop as much as we can.
> and for getting rich,,,,,, look at the coop's


Ours did pay a large cash dividend on grain and fertalizer... Makes you wonder why they screw us on basis that bad.


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## hedge hog (Mar 8, 2014)

back when I was a kid the coop's would ask you " how late you guy's cutting tonight?"
now they tell you when there closing and what time you need to be inline by .
they use to work for the farmer , now farmer works for them.
I call B.S.


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## Cheesecutter (Mar 8, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Deer corn around here is $9 for 50lbs. I dont have a clue as to what corn fuel sells for, dont think i have ever seen it. I havent researched any markets, but $9 for 50lbs is better than the $6 a bushel you folks are wishing for. Got to be a way to get a better than $4 bushel price out of it.


$9 for 50 lbs deer corn is a niche market for people who want convenient pre-bagged corn. The demand isn't great enough to justify the labor for farmers unless they are near a city. People could go to a grain elevator/co-op and buy corn bulk at the current $4 market price(maybe less for damaged corn) or but most buy pre-bagged and pay the extra $5 "value added fee" and it's ready to go. I think of it as the equivalent of $5-8 wood bundles compared to a cord, it's convenient. Corn fuel is just regular corn out of the bin, nothing special. Locally over-dried (or burnt as it's called) corn from a seed corn company sells for about 4 cents per pound or about $2.25 bushel.
Years ago a lady stopped by my dad's farm and asked if she could buy a bushel of corn that was still on the cob or ear corn to stick on nails for squirrel food. Although he thought she was nuts to feed "tree rats", he had me measure and bag it for her. She about crapped her drawers when she saw me carrying that big gunny sack full of corn she got for a couple bucks. She was expecting maybe 7-10 ears for $2, not 100 or more.


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## Steve NW WI (Mar 8, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> In our region of the world when you cut corn it IS clean out of the combine and goes into the bin clean. Flooded corn never gets cut and becomes an insurance claim. We must not know much about farming to set a combine to blow what little dust there is off so it feeds. Called my buddy that burns corn and he steadfastly says 8% moisture corn at $4 makes sense and $6 does not.



Heck, I ain't taking advice on anything financial from a guy who dries his corn down to 8% - or for that matter sets the combine to give a clean enough sample for stove corn straight outta the hopper.

If you have to ask what I mean, park the Ertls, son.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Mar 8, 2014)

Propane is back down to 3.49 gallon no shortage of fuel here but pellets and seasoned wood is impossible to find. coal is 190$ ton. 
Corn farmers are backed into the corner with a record breaking harvest this year in my state near impossible to squeeze the elevators into paying just 5$ per bushel.
But go to the local co-op they want 9$ bushel for either cracked or whole corn, 2013 and 2014 so far seems to be the most screwed up that i have seen in a while and this crazy weather is not helping either.


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## jgoodhart (Mar 8, 2014)

1 of the guys at work is burning corn since he can't find pellets and he just gets corn from the feed mill. He had to adjust the auger speed in the burn pot to stop build up, he said it burns hotter then wood pellets.


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## muddstopper (Mar 8, 2014)

Hddnis said:


> Wow! This thread sure blew up!
> 
> 
> Mr. HE


 Yep, and he didnt even see it coming.


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## hedge hog (Mar 8, 2014)

Steve NW WI said:


> Heck, I ain't taking advice on anything financial from a guy who dries his corn down to 8% - or for that matter sets the combine to give a clean enough sample for stove corn straight outta the hopper.
> If you have to ask what I mean, park the Ertls, son.


 the guys I know that burn corn dries to 9% , they told me that is prime for burning , most heat fewer ashes.
two years ago we had two quarters of drought stricken corn that we had to cut (because you can only claim so much a year on insurance).
first load or two barely made test weight to sell at a coop then we ran into a load that they would not take , too low of test weight.
so we took it to another coop and they took it and had a test weight of 55 but the first coop had a test of 46 .
so the next load we took we had them take two samples worth on the scales and while we waited for aflatoxin test to be done to see if they take it too
we retested the second sample that I had them take and the test weight would vary every time .
so we turned the air up and blew the lighter stuff out and keep the heavier stuff in the combine for a better test weight. 

so by the time you unload at 7 mph into a 1000 bushel grain cart with a little wind and unload into a truck it might surprise you on how clean it is.


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## muddstopper (Mar 8, 2014)

I guess I realize that deer corn would be a small market for someone that grows 100's of acres of corn a year. I just bought 50# last week from a local guy and I paid $8 for the bag. Long way from Kansas to NC. My local guy hauls dump truck loads from somewhere In Ga.. He has a couple of those metal storage bins, not the size you see out west. If I had to guess, which I am, I would estimate his bins probably hold 20-30 or so tons and maybe not that much. Anyways, he doesnt seem to have any trouble selling everything he brings in and is often out. Turkey season coming in, people buy corn, Deer season, people buy corn. Some of the hunting clubs feed year round. I dont know what this guy pays for his corn and I am sure the haul bill would be close to the cost of the corn, but he's making money or he wouldnt do it. I am just kind of wondering how much corn does one of those over the road dump trucks haul. Not talking about a tandem or triaxle dumptruck, but a road tractor pulling a 5th wheel dump trailer or maybe a bulk tanker.. I guess then the next question is what would a 1000 mile freight bill be. I also see barley for beer making being hauled by train cars from Canada to Asheville NC. There it is off loaded onto one of those bulk tankers for distribution. I talked to the truck driver and he says he hauls a lot of it local, but some of what he picks up is going all the way to Florida. This barley goes to all those little micro beer brewers, another ninch market. I am sure they probably pay a bit more for the barely than somebody like Budwiser.

I guess the point I am trying to make is 25000 bushel of corn aint much in a land where 1000's of bushels are grown each year. Letting it sit in a elevator for 4 years hoping the price goes up, while the elevators are charging storage fees the whole time, doesnt make a lot of sense to me. I'm not a farmer so dont beat on me to bad for my thoughts. I just think that it might pay off to look for you own markets to sell some of your corn instead of letting the big coop's do all the buying and selling. I think I would rather sell it for $4 bushel out of the field now rather than pay storage fees for 4 years and then sell it for $4. Probably aint as easy to do as I think, but is something i would be trying to do if i was sitting on $100,000 worth of product. Seems to be a shortage of wood pellets in some parts of the country, corn is a viable alternative. Start your own ninch market, Bag the corn, sell it for deer corn and heating fuel. I see train loads of corn being hualed from the Mid West to Nc almost daily. Southern States uses it make animal feed. Cracked corn is $9/#50, whole corn about the same.


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## Cheesecutter (Mar 8, 2014)

When you are in corn country, every farm grows it. So viable niche markets are tough to come by. I know corn marketing can be quite complex, just sooooo many variables. 
A semi trailer like this hauls approximately 1000 bushels or 50k lbs. I don't know how much the going trucking rate is currently, $2-4 per mile?


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## hedge hog (Mar 8, 2014)

good corn will weigh 56 to lower 60 pounds per bushel.
corn that has a too high of aflatoxin content would work great for pellet stove's .
because it's really hard to get ride of it when the PPM is to high for feed.
so feeding it to deer or turk's would be out of question .


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## Whitespider (Mar 8, 2014)

Hddnis said:


> *Wow! This thread sure blew up!*





muddstopper said:


> *Yep, and he didnt even see it coming.*



Yeah... and  did anybody notice??
I wasn't even part of it 
*


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## jimbojango (Mar 8, 2014)

Steve NW WI said:


> Heck, I ain't taking advice on anything financial from a guy who dries his corn down to 8% - or for that matter sets the combine to give a clean enough sample for stove corn straight outta the hopper.
> 
> If you have to ask what I mean, park the Ertls, son.


i didnt saw 8% out of the combine. i said 8% out of the bins. btw cutting Kansas corn when its been droughted out does come out of the combine at 11% with a 41lb test weight. It was clean as could be and i wouldn't any issue putting it through a stove. Just learn to turn your fan up and blow the crap off just like you do to blow cheat and rye out. Insurance doesn't care if you blow half of it out on the ground, you're getting the shaft regardless. I'm glad us KS retard farmers don't know how to grow a crop or we might actually feed some cows and people instead of ethanol plants.
Has anyone ever burned milo (grain sorghum) in a stove? wonder how that would go.

Aflotoxin is great! we tested 400 PPM! that corn was probably high AFTER the ethanol mill got done with it. We blended 3500 bushel with milo in a cattle ration to feed it up. It was horrible.


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## hedge hog (Mar 8, 2014)

a friend tried milo and wheat just never found the sweet spot on moisture content with either one like he did the corn.
both burn good but not as good as corn .
milo is a little better than wheat.
and his is a wood pellet but found out that you could put the grains in and get close to the same heat and being farmer why not?
you would think of all that corn can do we could get a better price for it?
we got new tractors ,a combine and a sprayer this year with the tier 4 engines , so now we go through DEF like no other !

1.90 a gallon and 34% urea and 66% water to clean the air,, so in turn now urea is going up in price because they found another thing to do with it?


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## philoshop (Mar 8, 2014)

Corn is food, or what is fed to critters that become food.
Wood is food for the stove, and shade when it's too hot out.


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## jimbojango (Mar 8, 2014)

hedge hog said:


> a friend tried milo and wheat just never found the sweet spot on moisture content with either one like he did the corn.
> both burn good but not as good as corn .
> milo is a little better than wheat.
> and his is a wood pellet but found out that you could put the grains in and get close to the same heat and being farmer why not?
> ...


I'm poor, i still farm with old cases and an international. Use a gleaner combine cause i'm to cheap to buy a case IH. DEF is a LONG way in my future on farm equipment lol. I recent applied for a job with Koch Fertilizer simply because i know the global demand for urea is going through the roof. Every time you turn around the inputs go up and the "free market" doesn't go all free market with it. I doubt i plant any corn this year, its too dry and i don't think we have the subsoil moisture for it. Probably plant milo and a few beans and we'll see what happens for water this spring before i plan to double crop anything. Just bought a new baler and another used disk cutter swather, so my wad has been shot for this year if we don't see some results on wheat. Cows only pay bills for so long, and this cattle market is going to die a miserable death eventually and its going to hurt. Might take a couple more years but it'll happen and we'll have cheap cows, and cheap corn and uncle sam will want more ethanol as a price support measure.


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## hedge hog (Mar 8, 2014)

this year were all in with case .
and agree with the no corn we been probing are fields and some are to dry 10"down .
so more beans ,cotton or milo... wishing sunflowers but can't seem to get him to plant them again .
they make great chicken feed!


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## jimbojango (Mar 8, 2014)

hedge hog said:


> this year were all in with case .
> and agree with the no corn we been probing are fields and some are to dry 10"down .
> so more beans ,cotton or milo... wishing sunflowers but can't seem to get him to plant them again .
> they make great chicken feed!


Never planted a sunflower or cotton and i'm not going to start. my program is wheat and milo and a few beans with the occasional corn. I'm not going to canola either lol. I'm not getting rich but my inputs aren't half of everyone elses. trash farming seems to make a better overall return where we are.


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## muddstopper (Mar 8, 2014)

I had never heard of Aflotoxin before this thread. Did a quick search and found out it is a fungus. Fungus thrive in low ph enviroments. Makes me wonder what the base saturation of calcium might be in your soils. As big farmers, I assume everyone is doing soil testing for fertilizer recommendations. Fertilizer aint cheap so I just wonder if maybe some are skimping on lime or magnesium.


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## hedge hog (Mar 8, 2014)

we spend a lot over money on soil samples so I know its not a soil deal as much as you would think.
you see it the most in dry land corn when it gets really stressed out from drought.
the same year we had the problem with aflotoxin all are dry land showed it more in some fields less in other but showed it.
are irrigated corn the same year right across the road produce no aflotoxin and a third the field was the same seed and lot number.
I think it's a stress related thing?
any good year for corn will produce very little aflotoxin if none in dry land corn.


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## jimbojango (Mar 8, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> I had never heard of Aflotoxin before this thread. Did a quick search and found out it is a fungus. Fungus thrive in low ph enviroments. Makes me wonder what the base saturation of calcium might be in your soils. As big farmers, I assume everyone is doing soil testing for fertilizer recommendations. Fertilizer aint cheap so I just wonder if maybe some are skimping on lime or magnesium.


aflotoxin gets in corn when it tossles and then gets hot and dry and stays that way. Then at the end when it actually "makes corn" the corn gets a rain just in time to keep it from dying and puts corn on the ears and its loaded up with aflotoxin.


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## muddstopper (Mar 8, 2014)

Cheesecutter said:


> When you are in corn country, every farm grows it. So viable niche markets are tough to come by. I know corn marketing can be quite complex, just sooooo many variables. View attachment 338147
> A semi trailer like this hauls approximately 1000 bushels or 50k lbs. I don't know how much the going trucking rate is currently, $2-4 per mile?



Thats the kind of dump trailer I was referring to. 1000 bushels @ $4= $4000. Would have to get better freight numbers and actual mileage, taking the middle number, $3000 for freight, $7 per bushel just to get it here. Yea, is isnt looking feasible . Didnt really think it was. Freight is always the killer. I once tried to get truck loads of materials out of New Mexico, damn freight cost more than the materials. Couldnt make it work then, and it hasnt gotten any better.


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## jimbojango (Mar 8, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Thats the kind of dump trailer I was referring to. 1000 bushels @ $4= $4000. Would have to get better freight numbers and actual mileage, taking the middle number, $3000 for freight, $7 per bushel just to get it here. Yea, is isnt looking feasible . Didnt really think it was. Freight is always the killer. I once tried to get truck loads of materials out of New Mexico, damn freight cost more than the materials. Couldnt make it work then, and it hasnt gotten any better.


gotta stick grain on a train or it better not go more than 50 miles... you pay dearly for the frieght.


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## Como (Mar 8, 2014)

I am familiar with my local fuel costs, we do not have access to corn, oil or coal. Well not practically.

So on the basis of the cost per million btu output.

Cord Wood - cost effective because it costs me $4 or so and I am not charging for my time. If I had to buy it in would probably be nearer $15

Propane, well it did hit nearly $4, now just over $2. Pretty much everyone I know buys in the summer, so its peak prices is irrelevant. On average $20.

Pellets are slightly less, but not by much. Say $18, you do not get the same efficiency conversion as you do with Propane.

I do not have Natural Gas, there is NG 10 miles form me and that would be much cheaper than pellets.

Electricity is $30. So would have been cheaper than Propane when it peaked.

So unless you like and can harvest wood for a nominal cost there is not a lot of difference.

I have friends with a very large house, they are off the grid, mentioned that their utilities are $25 a month. He did not include the wood. I think it takes him a couple of days to collect 12 cords in log lengths. He has a dump truck so it is just the gas, say $40? He cuts as he goes, so I do not know the time. He buys a new saw every 5 years or so, nothing special. His cost per million btu delivered is probably nearer $2.


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## Como (Mar 8, 2014)

I looked up Natural Gas prices, varied between $7 and $14 last year. So the peak price was the same as the lowest for Propane.


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## esshup (Mar 9, 2014)

Mom & Dad's house is on Propane. They fill the tanks once a year in the summer, and one tank usually lasts a year, but not in this winter (1,000 gal tanks). They have a whole house genset that runs on propane, and a pellet stove. We did the math, and the pellet stove is cheaper to run than the propane if propane is over $1.89/gal. They buy the pellets by the pallet when they're on sale, and get the low ash kind. The store where they buy them (same place sold them the pellet stove and installed it) will deliver the pellets and stack them in the pole barn for them at no additional cost if they can wait until the stores trailer is full and they are making deliveries. Usually one bag lasts 24 hrs.

Mom & Dad went with pellets because of their age, less mess in the house and it's easier to move/store them. They are in their upper 80's. For them, it was a no brainer - replace fireplace with a pellet stove insert.


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## cantoo (Mar 9, 2014)

Como, you might want to price out your friends alternative energy costs including their batteries, windmill, solar array, gas for generator when sun or wind is down, etc. I also have a friend off grid and It's crazy the amount of time and money he has invested especially the time.


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## Como (Mar 9, 2014)

Time is tricky because like this it is a hobby as well.

Connecting to the grid would be far far too expensive, he had a Diesel Generator. So the valid comparison would be between the PV system and the cost of continuing to operate the Diesel. I know he has to start the Diesel every now and then, usually it will not come on by itself unless it snows solidly for several days.

Grid tie would be better but as I said not an option.


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## muddstopper (Mar 9, 2014)

I dont tnink I want to be totally off grid, but when I build my next house, it will be as self sufficient as I can make it. A lot of things can be done for alternative energy if your willing to invest some time and live with a little less convience. Where you live has a lot to do with it as well. Here in the mountains of NC, even the winters aint all that bad. temps dip to subzero, but they dont stay there more than a day or two. I have been watching a few of my buddies as they develope ways to save on electricity. None of them is really concentrating on making power, just saving it. Wood pays a small part, but other options such as geothermal, solar collectors, and yea one buddy even built his own solar panels, not to supplement his house power, but to run his solar powered water pumps. Investments in saving power will put more money in your pocket than trying to produce power.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 9, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> Investments in saving power will put more money in your pocket than trying to produce power.



I totally agree, and it's the way I've always lived....

SR


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## cantoo (Mar 9, 2014)

Unless there isn't any power nearby I just don't think it's worth it to be off grid. At least with my lifestyle I don't. I like to build things with steel and wood so that means welding, cutting steel, . All big power consumers. I prefer to reduce my power consumption however I can or at least use the power to make money.


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## muddstopper (Mar 9, 2014)

back in the mid 90's. I did a ton of research into solar power. I had just built a 3658 sqft 5bedroom, 3 bath house. Everything was totally electric. No wood, no gas. at that time, the solar panels, battery pack, inverters, phase converters, the whole nine yards was going to cost somewhere in the $13000 range. For that much money, I was supposed to be able to walk in, flip the switch and live just like being on the grid power. If i had spent the money back then, it would have paid for itself by now. I didnt and sold the house when the kids moved out. I dont know what a similar system would cost now, a lot more I would think. 

My future home will be a timber frame or log frame structure. Where it will be built is on a south facing slope above a large stream. I intend to use that stream to power a generator. I will also use solar collectors to heat water and heat the house. The stream water temps adverage around 57F year round and I plan on heat exchangers to use that water to cool the house in the summer. I will have a wood furnace of some kind. I will also be hooked to the grid, but believe i can produce the biggest majority of the power I consume. The hydro system isnt that expensive to build, you just have to have the water to make it work. Solar collectors are easy to build and with proper sizing and enough storage, can provide a lot of heat. Solar panels are expensive and require lots of maintenance, and while i may incorporate a few in my plans, i will produce the majority of electricity from the hydro system


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## jimbojango (Mar 9, 2014)

muddstopper said:


> back in the mid 90's. I did a ton of research into solar power. I had just built a 3658 sqft 5bedroom, 3 bath house. Everything was totally electric. No wood, no gas. at that time, the solar panels, battery pack, inverters, phase converters, the whole nine yards was going to cost somewhere in the $13000 range. For that much money, I was supposed to be able to walk in, flip the switch and live just like being on the grid power. If i had spent the money back then, it would have paid for itself by now. I didnt and sold the house when the kids moved out. I dont know what a similar system would cost now, a lot more I would think.
> 
> My future home will be a timber frame or log frame structure. Where it will be built is on a south facing slope above a large stream. I intend to use that stream to power a generator. I will also use solar collectors to heat water and heat the house. The stream water temps adverage around 57F year round and I plan on heat exchangers to use that water to cool the house in the summer. I will have a wood furnace of some kind. I will also be hooked to the grid, but believe i can produce the biggest majority of the power I consume. The hydro system isnt that expensive to build, you just have to have the water to make it work. Solar collectors are easy to build and with proper sizing and enough storage, can provide a lot of heat. Solar panels are expensive and require lots of maintenance, and while i may incorporate a few in my plans, i will produce the majority of electricity from the hydro system


Solar system to power my 1850 sqft house is 11 grand installed. I just priced one a couple weeks ago. They told me "the best thing you can do is put a new 30 year roof on and put the panels on the week after, then you don't have to worry about moving anything for 30 years" made sense... until we get a hail storm in which case the insurance would pay to replace both except the deductible. Makes sense to me. That was for a "no electric bill" system that has more of a chance of putting power back on the grid than taking it off.


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## cantoo (Mar 9, 2014)

$11,000 system that provides enough power for your 1850 sq ft house and puts power back to the grid? I think you should get that in writing.
Willie G, what say you? I know you have a system, was it $11,000? My opinion of Jimbojangles rest on your hands. Nothing personal but there ain't no system anywhere near that efficient anywhere near that price up here in Canucksky land.


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## lmbeachy (Mar 9, 2014)

This is what was in the newspaper this morning


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## muddstopper (Mar 9, 2014)

cantoo said:


> $11,000 system that provides enough power for your 1850 sq ft house and puts power back to the grid? I think you should get that in writing.
> Willie G, what say you? I know you have a system, was it $11,000? My opinion of Jimbojangles rest on your hands. Nothing personal but there ain't no system anywhere near that efficient anywhere near that price up here in Canucksky land.


I havent researched anything lately, so wont comment on the $11000 quote. I will say not everybody uses the same amount of electricity. Back when I had three boys at home, my power bill was $300 a month, more in the winter time. Boys grew up, left home and power bill now runs $125month, just about year round. Of course now I heat with wood, and have a preheater on my elect. hotwater heater. Of course the preheater only works if I have a fire in the stove. We use less hot water, wash fewer clothes, fewer lights on in the house, less food cooked. I guess i could take my $125 power bill, check the price of my electricity and determine the size system I would need to do solar and see what the cost would be. At $11000 it should take about 7.3 years for the system to pay for itself, if nothing breaks before then. For a young person, planning on living in their current home for the next 10 years or more, it would make sense. All things are relevant, If it reduces a $300 month power bill to zero, then payback would a little over 3 yrs. If you added back the increased resell value to the home, it might take even less time to break even. Lots of varibles to determine cost vs ROI.


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## hedge hog (Mar 9, 2014)

lmbeachy said:


> This is what was in the newspaper this morning


 and what they don't tell you is that you can burn corn ,milo or wheat in it's place.
only a handful of pellet stove manufactures will say this because the didn't go in with the pellet producers to tie the market up
so they could control the there income.
but all pellet stoves will burn these fuels if you try it.


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## jimbojango (Mar 9, 2014)

cantoo said:


> $11,000 system that provides enough power for your 1850 sq ft house and puts power back to the grid? I think you should get that in writing.
> Willie G, what say you? I know you have a system, was it $11,000? My opinion of Jimbojangles rest on your hands. Nothing personal but there ain't no system anywhere near that efficient anywhere near that price up here in Canucksky land.


I dug my last years worth of electric bills out and i only pay $0.11 a KWH. My electric bill hasn't been over $80 in any month in that year. I have a relatively well insulated house and we have high efficiency everything and are all electric except the wood stove and have LED light bulbs. I'd guess that i don't need an entire roof worth of panels because our KWH usage isn't that high. Maybe the company i talked to is running a good scam. BTW i can write $7000 of my taxes instantly and amortize the rest the way the tax code looks.


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## jimbojango (Mar 9, 2014)

hedge hog said:


> and what they don't tell you is that you can burn corn ,milo or wheat in it's place.
> only a handful of pellet stove manufactures will say this because the didn't go in with the pellet producers to tie the market up
> so they could control the there income.
> but all pellet stoves will burn these fuels if you try it.


i'd hate to walk into a feed store and pay $9 for a 50 lbs sack of corn for heat  but it'd beat freezing by a lot.


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## jimbojango (Mar 9, 2014)

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html#SolarSkyAstronergy
That is NOT who i had come look at the house and do the quote, but it does give some real pricing. That website doesnt include install or the actual hook up so it goes back on the grid with surplus energy. I'd guess install at like 4 grand on a 1000 KWH package because of what some guys that install them have said. Don't take it for gospel.


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## Como (Mar 10, 2014)

The price of PV panels have come down. Quite a bit, The main cost is the labour, not the equipment so comes back to how handy you are.

I can not get a grant where I am, but many can. Free money is always good.

Also you are comparing prices assuming current electric costs. Only going to go up.

My friends are 2 people in a 6,000 sq ft house, he sized it for them and a bit so if they have visitors who are not aware then the Generator can kick in.

Looking around their house I could see quite a few small changes that would reduce usage, much cheaper to minimize use than put in extra generation.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Mar 10, 2014)

11,000 for a power system holy **** believe i will stick to the TVA they provide all the power i need it hangs around 35-43$ in the winter and a not a penny over 90-110$ in the summer.
but electric is cheap here.


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## hedge hog (Mar 10, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> i'd hate to walk into a feed store and pay $9 for a 50 lbs sack of corn for heat but it'd beat freezing by a lot.


 no I wouldn't the corn for $9 cleaned .
I would buy the un cleaned bulk for half of the cost or find a farmer in the area.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 10, 2014)

Como said:


> The price of PV panels have come down. Quite a bit, The main cost is the labour, not the equipment so comes back to how handy you are.
> 
> I can not get a grant where I am, but many can. Free money is always good.



There's NO such thing as "free" money, and we are 7 TRILLION in debt to prove it!!

Someone has to pay for all that "free" money!

SR


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## jimbojango (Mar 10, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> There's NO such thing as "free" money, and we are 7 TRILLION in debt to prove it!!
> 
> Someone has to pay for all that "free" money!
> 
> SR


no one said they were free i don't think. I think people said the cost of them was less than other alternatives. 
I'm all for the solar panel idea if i can come up with the initial investment to buy them. It would be nice in the winter time when our power gets knocked out by ice with the biggest problem i can see being that i'll be climbing my happy butt on the roof to get snow off them so they function... maybe they should design little heaters in them.


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## philoshop (Mar 10, 2014)

Solar collection and distribution are relatively inexpensive endeavors, at least for a residential application.
What kills you price-wise is the storage. It takes a lot of expensive batteries to just make it through the night, let alone a few days of persistent cloud cover if you want to be off-grid.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 10, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> no one said they were free i don't think. I think people said the cost of them was less than other alternatives.
> I'm all for the solar panel idea if i can come up with the initial investment to buy them. It would be nice in the winter time when our power gets knocked out by ice with the biggest problem i can see being that i'll be climbing my happy butt on the roof to get snow off them so they function... maybe they should design little heaters in them.



Read the post again, My comment was aimed at the FREE MONEY comment... Grants/tax deductions are NOT "FREE money", someone has to pay for it, just as my last post pointed out.

SR


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 10, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Yeah... and  did anybody notice??
> I wasn't even part of it
> *


Wow! A lot sure has happened in here since I "fell off the turnip truck"!
As I was reading thru this, I did note that Whitey was missing. I was wondering if he was off his feed or something.


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## Whitespider (Mar 10, 2014)

Just enjoying he popcorn man opcorn: I like popcorn.
*


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## philoshop (Mar 10, 2014)

What started as a thread has grown into a tree with many branches.


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## NSMaple1 (Mar 10, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> I'm poor, i still farm with old cases and an international. Use a gleaner combine cause i'm to cheap to buy a case IH. DEF is a LONG way in my future on farm equipment lol. I recent applied for a job with Koch Fertilizer simply because i know the global demand for urea is going through the roof. Every time you turn around the inputs go up and the "free market" doesn't go all free market with it. I doubt i plant any corn this year, its too dry and i don't think we have the subsoil moisture for it. Probably plant milo and a few beans and we'll see what happens for water this spring before i plan to double crop anything. Just bought a new baler and another used disk cutter swather, so my wad has been shot for this year if we don't see some results on wheat. Cows only pay bills for so long, and this cattle market is going to die a miserable death eventually and its going to hurt. Might take a couple more years but it'll happen and we'll have cheap cows, and cheap corn and uncle sam will want more ethanol as a price support measure.



Could always just go work some overtime...


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## Hddnis (Mar 10, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Just enjoying he popcorn man opcorn: I like popcorn.
> *


 My too, but I've run out, can I have some of yours?

I notice that we are on to PVs now. I hope everyone thaws out and gets back to work soon so this can all wait till next fall.opcorn:



Mr. HE


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## cantoo (Mar 10, 2014)

We pay approx. .19 kilowatt here. Our bill is at least $200 a month and that is cheap according to neighbours. I made some assumptions on jimbojangles post, I thought he meant to "power" his house. Now I see that it is only for sunny days and sunny times, no storage system of any kind. But still for $11,000 and a $7,000 tax break I would jump on it.


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## jimbojango (Mar 10, 2014)

NSMaple1 said:


> Could always just go work some overtime...


sure could, could custom spray some fields for the neighbor, could go work ground for myself or i could keep lounging. I'm choosing to lounge, have plenty of firewood cut because i enjoy doing it.


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## jimbojango (Mar 10, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Read the post again, My comment was aimed at the FREE MONEY comment... Grants/tax deductions are NOT "FREE money", someone has to pay for it, just as my last post pointed out.
> 
> SR


Gotcha


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## jimbojango (Mar 10, 2014)

cantoo said:


> We pay approx. .19 kilowatt here. Our bill is at least $200 a month and that is cheap according to neighbours. I made some assumptions on jimbojangles post, I thought he meant to "power" his house. Now I see that it is only for sunny days and sunny times, no storage system of any kind. But still for $11,000 and a $7,000 tax break I would jump on it.


yeah, i'm not going off grid. i think those are 90 grand dude! The systems i looked at use the idea that when the sun is out you're "net gaining" and when the sun isn't you're net loosing and its a giant wash.


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## cantoo (Mar 11, 2014)

Yeah, most solar units around here are $100,000, payback is 15 years if the government keeps honouring the deal. Willies G has 2 panels. $100 each maybe?


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## Como (Mar 12, 2014)

Back to wood, with the wood I have available to me the number I keep in the back of my head is 150.

So I wend past a wood dealer in the Peoples Republic of Boulder selling at $165. So if you had the same level of efficiency that is the same as Propane at $1.10.

My Propane Boiler vents with plastic, my stove does not. So that multiplier should assuming a efficient stove be about 100, so $1.65 a gallon break even for Propane. And then you have the hassle involved with Wood vs Propane.

The economics of buying wood at this cost escapes me. Especially as most of his customers in that area will have NG.


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## mainewoods (Mar 13, 2014)

The old mill I used to haul birch bolts to, converted to a pellet mill some years back, and they state there is no shortage of pellets being produced. The issues are with lack of sufficient distribution.


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## [email protected] (Mar 13, 2014)

Natural Gas, that's a great Idea, did you hear the news yesterday, 2 buildings blown to he!! in Manhattan, sure makes me want to hook right up!


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 13, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Natural Gas, that's a great Idea, did you hear the news yesterday, 2 buildings blown to he!! in Manhattan, sure makes me want to hook right up!



That makes about as much sense as me telling you about the "three" houses that burned down this winter because of woodstoves!

SR


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## [email protected] (Mar 13, 2014)

This WAS an apartment building that neighbors and residents complained the day before about the smell of gas, 6 months earlier another complaint was filed for the same reason and most importantly, IT BLEW UP, it did NOT burn because a homeowner got careless


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 13, 2014)

Isn't all of those cases, caused by HUMAN Error?? I don't/won't live in town and surely NOT in an apartment.

At my home, "IF" I smelled gas, I'd turn the gas off!! Just like "I" do the maintenance on my chimney, to avoid those problems too...

SR


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## cantoo (Mar 13, 2014)

I heard that one of the apartment dwellers had an OWB and it set off the explosion? I also heard another story that a gun started the explosion. Just one more step to the gun shooting someone. After all we know that natural gas explosions are a stepping stone to mass murder for a gun.
FYI, I have fire insurance and working smoke and co detectors, if I have a stove fire I have a chance of getting out. If I have a natural gas explosion I have very little chance of getting out. I installed an OWB so it would give me some more protection from fire. Now If I could figure out how to disarm a jealous husband I would be set to live forever.


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## spike60 (Mar 17, 2014)

If it's OK to talk about pellets here again......................................

Was at the hardware store where my buddy gets his and they are out for the year, as are a few others in the area. There are 2 things in play here. In some cases retailers can't get them period. But in at least one case, the guy doesn't want to bring them in this late in the season. Warm weather can't be TOO far away. (hopefully)

But the other thing is that pellet prices are way up and they expect that they will come down over the summer. No way you'd want to carry inventory into next fall and have retail pellet prices be below current wholesale cost this spring. 

That may of course explain some of the supply issue. But for people who need more pellets to finish the season they're still up the creek. And there lies yet another testimony to the independence most of us have burning wood. Since most of us are do-it-yourself types, we are essentially in control of our own supplies.


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## MrWhoopee (Mar 17, 2014)

spike60 said:


> If it's OK to talk about pellets here again......................................
> But for people who need more pellets to finish the season they're still up the creek. And there lies yet another testimony to the independence most of us have burning wood. Since most of us are do-it-yourself types, we are essentially in control of our own supplies.



And we're back to my original point. A short, efficient supply chain is most cost effective and least subject to interruption.

Edit: Lest somebody take offense again, I am not criticizing those who choose pellets. I am merely stating the reasons for MY CHOICE.


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## Dale (Mar 17, 2014)

Burning pellets does have merit for many.... not me, but many.


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## Dale (Mar 17, 2014)

jimbojango said:


> The underlying principle was that you don't cut wood to save money because you could go to work instead and buy it and actually make a profit doing so. You choose to cut wood and that's wonderful and great, but it is costing you real dollars just like it costs me real dollars to cut it instead of working overtime


 
I believe you are correct, I just don't think your message "delivery" methodology is very well-received.... and for just reason.


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## spike60 (Mar 17, 2014)

MrWhoopee said:


> And we're back to my original point. A short, efficient supply chain is most cost effective and least subject to interruption.




Absolutely!

Funny thing is that after my earlier post, I spoke with a Landscaper customer of mine from over the other side of the river. Before hanging up he asked if anyone over here had pellets as he needed some for his Mom's house. There's nothing anywhere around here. The retailer over by him can't get them til April, and they also have a waiting list of 50+ names. And that's just one store.

Got to 14 degrees last night and heading to 12 tonight. We've got a ways to go yet.


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## mainewoods (Mar 17, 2014)

I like the fact that I don't need to depend on some store for my "wood" supply. Always worrying if they have any pellets and if the do,will I get there in time to beat the stampede for a bag of compressed wood waste. Not to mention the price of a pellet stove, and the fact that it only works if you have power. Constantly needing to clean it - hoping the auger doesn't break down, and then have a worthless piece of metal until it is repaired. No thank you. It might be for some people, but I like being in control of my own heat source and not dependent on someone else. If my stove "breaks down", I throw another log in it. If I need a bag of pellets, I go out and cut a tree. If I run out of fuel, I go out to the wood shed.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 17, 2014)

mainewoods said:


> I like the fact that I don't need to depend on some store for my "wood" supply. Always worrying if they have any pellets and if the do,will I get there in time to beat the stampede for a bag of compressed wood waste. Not to mention the price of a pellet stove, and the fact that it only works if you have power. Constantly needing to clean it.



Do you need to beat the stampede for your wood?? NO? Well I don't have a pellet stove, but if I did, I'd lay in a supply of pellets for the year, just like you do your wood supply.

As for your other comments, MY woodstove wasn't free, I had to buy it, just like I would a pellet stove and when the power goes out, my fan stops. I have a small genset for the rest of the house, so I plug the woodstove fan in too, just like I would a pellet stove. I also have to clean the ashes out of my woodstove...

It's really not much different with either one...

SR


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## philoshop (Mar 17, 2014)

Are wood pellets becoming the new .22 rimfire or beanie-baby craze? Hoard 'til yer bored?
My brother burns some pellets, but it hasn't come up in our recent conversations.


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## mainewoods (Mar 17, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Do you need to beat the stampede for your wood?? NO? Well I don't have a pellet stove, but if I did, I'd lay in a supply of pellets for the year, just like you do your wood supply.
> 
> As for your other comments, MY woodstove wasn't free, I had to buy it, just like I would a pellet stove and when the power goes out, my fan stops. I have a small genset for the rest of the house, so I plug the woodstove fan in too, just like I would a pellet stove. I also have to clean the ashes out of my woodstove...
> 
> ...




A wood stove doesn't need power to give out heat - a pellet stove does. Not many wood stoves are free, obviously. Obviously there is no stampede in the forest for firewood, but from what I hear the same can not be said about a shipment of pellets arriving in mid season at a supply store, (if they arrive at all). A wood stove puts out heat without power, the same can not be said for a pellet stove, without an alternative power source. It is just my opinion, and I am sure they are ideal for many people, as others have stated. Again, in my opinion only, I enjoy the independence of burning the wood that I harvest myself.


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## spike60 (Mar 18, 2014)

mainewoods said:


> A wood stove doesn't need power to give out heat - a pellet stove does. Not many wood stoves are free, obviously. Obviously there is no stampede in the forest for firewood, but from what I hear the same can not be said about a shipment of pellets arriving in mid season at a supply store, (if they arrive at all). A wood stove puts out heat without power, the same can not be said for a pellet stove, without an alternative power source. It is just my opinion, and I am sure they are ideal for many people, as others have stated. Again, in my opinion only, I enjoy the independence of burning the wood that I harvest myself.



This sums up my thinking also, particularly that last line. But I'll add a few things. 

This is one of those debates where nearly every post will be somewhat valid in a given context. My view on pellet stoves is that they have a place and within their limitations are viable as a partial heat source. I think that as you move towards more urban areas where harvesting your own wood is more difficult, pellets start to become attractive. Especially for people who buy split wood. People who have experienced uncertain delivery or seasoning with firewood will understandably like the idea of simply driving to the store to buy pellets. (if they have any)

I live in a forest, so harvesting my wood is easy. And the fact that I throughly enjoy the entire process is a bonus. Between scrounging, cutting on my own property, and logger friends from the store who let me cut tops/drops at landings, I've never paid for a sitck of wood in my life. I'm really fortunate that it all fits together so perfectly for me.

This isn't the first time there has been a pellet shortage, and let's not forget there's a wood shortage this year too for people who buy it. So even people who laid in a typical year's pellet supply, this brutal winter has many of them on those waiting lists. But again, firewood's shorter and more independent supply line allows the industrious to do something besides simply wait in line. Despite the winter we are going through, guys around here are finding ways to get wood out. Whether for themselves or customers. Yeah, it's certainly a little more work in these conditions, but we're getting it done. Pellet folks are just waiting helplessly by the phone.


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## mainewoods (Mar 18, 2014)

I certainly can see the advantages of pellet stoves. The ability to go to a store and buy a nice neat, clean bag of "wood" that you just pour into a hopper, which in turn is automatically fed into the combustion chamber, is certainly alluring. Gathering firewood is time consuming and laborious, and in this hurry up - fast paced world, a pellet stove makes a lot of sense to a lot of people, and for good reason. There is a decent chance that in a few years a pellet stove will look good to me, and I may want one. Until then I will continue cutting my own wood and getting the exercise, and satisfaction of not being dependent on someone else, as long as I am physically able.


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