# How rescueable are we?



## [email protected] (Dec 27, 2013)

A couple of weeks ago I was delivering some basic training and we had an incident where a trainee who had no previous history of it had a seizure, we were training tree felling in a forest at the time so he wasn't in a tree but he easily could have been. it was a bit of a wake up call and got me looking at rescue scenarios more closely.

I try to set myself up so i can be rescued easily enough if the need arises. some of the simple steps i take include:
having a second climber (and kit) on site.
I carry a knife. (important because i use a chest croll)
When i climb srt which is 90% of the time i tie an alpine butterfly at the base of my line so i can be lowered from the ground if/once i'm not double tied.

There is more i could be doing (feel free to make suggestions)

My question is if you are up 100' in an urban environment inaccessible to EWPs unconscious what would your ground crew do? could they get you down? or are you at the mercy of the emergency services who may be unfamiliar with trees and tree gear?

I was thinking about setting myself up as the person to call in my area for such a scenario but i am now thinking training the State emergency services so they would be better equipped to deal with these scenarios would be a better option?


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 28, 2013)

Its true, that many don't have the second line in and the extra gear on site. I always have extra gear with me, but never set the extra line, tho I should. My boys can climb, not that great, but they can get up and move around. Think I need to practice this with them. I would be careful about training someone, I could see a huge liability suit waiting if one of your students pays half attention and gets someone hurt worse, then says, "Dan taught me"


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## imagineero (Dec 28, 2013)

rescue training is compulsory for climbers at level 3 in aus, and for council work we are required to have the gear and a second rescue claimed climber on site some of the time. In my opinion it's pretty worthless training. You're required to pass 3 different scenarios, one involves SRT up the climbers tail, one involves setting your own line and lowering him off on his line, and the third involves setting your own line, lifting the climber, cutting his rope, then lowering him off on a remotely set line. All of the scenarios are very unrealistic for so many reasons. In reality, there is rarely a second fully trained climber just hanging around watching the first. Most tree companies are a small crew of 2 or 3 with only the one trained climber. Secondly, assuming you did have a second climber, who is trained, you probably won't have the kit ready. If you did, it's unlikely he would remember the techniques. If he did, it's likely you would die of suspension trauma or blood loss before he could reach you.

There are very few injuries that will leave a climber in a position where he is unable to lower himself off to ground, but able to stay suspended indefinitely without dying. To complicate things just slightly further, the types of climbers who tend to get injured/need rescuing are most often the ones with little or no training, which makes the whole point of rescue training seem kinda silly. They get injured/trapped most often due to their lack of experience and training in tree work generally. The very rare tree rescues of live climbers I do see performed by emergency staff are usually to save guys who just shouldn't have been in the tree at all. It's stage fright as much as anything, they could have easily gotten themselves out of the tree. Of course, if they knew what they were doing they wouldn't have had any need to get out of the tree. See where this is going?

In a real world situation it's not hard to rig yourself for rescue if that's a concern to you. Set a line in the tree, as normal, but then use that to haul up a ring with your climb line on it. whoopie sling at the base, with a rescue figure 8 locked off and tied off. Climb as per normal, if you get hurt the trained groundie can lower your whole setup down from the ground. Total investment about $20 for that one time you may get stuck and need lowering off, it could save your life bu nobody does it. Why? Don't trust your groundie to not cut the rope or lower you off properly? Neither do I. See where this is going?

In a real world rescue scenario if you had a second climber, he's probably just going to spike up the tree at speed if he's any sort of climber, set a rope and lower himself off then lower you down with your own rope at the same time he's lowering himself. There are many complex rescue scenarios, but few you are likely to ever encounter with a live climber. Dead climbers kind of take the need for speed away. I've worked in mountain and cave rescue off and on for about 15 years now, and pulled out both live and dead bodies. Some of the rescue situations are complex, involving traverses or hauling bodies up on boards out of deep caves with limited access. I just don't see that much need for it with tree climbing. You can't get a helicopter down a cave, or close to the side of a thousand foot cliff. The trees we work on are generally near fire brigades, and plenty of people around. Those people have big ladders, and cherry pickers, helicopters etc. You're either going to not hurt yourself that much and get out of the tree, or you'll be dead before they arrive. 

Shaun


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## pdqdl (Dec 28, 2013)

imagineero said:


> r...
> 
> In a real world situation it's not hard to rig yourself for rescue if that's a concern to you. Set a line in the tree, as normal, but then use that to haul up a ring with your climb line on it. whoopie sling at the base, with a rescue figure 8 locked off and tied off. Climb as per normal, if you get hurt the trained groundie can lower your whole setup down from the ground. Total investment about $20 for that one time you may get stuck and need lowering off, it could save your life bu nobody does it. Why? Don't trust your groundie to not cut the rope or lower you off properly? Neither do I. See where this is going?
> ...Shaun



Actually, that is what I do, if I am working a bigger tree, particularly if it is not a removal. Good post, though. I agree; trusting the groundies or yourself to not cut the ascending line is a big concern. 

BTW: I don't use any slings or other contraptions at the base of the tree. I just wrap the rope around the tree 5 times and put a simple tie-off on it. NO WAY can any groundie be stupid enough to untie it accidentally, or lose control because it wasn't secured well. 5 wraps on a tree doesn't even need a knot to hold me in the tree, and it makes sure that nothing else can get a hold of the tail and pull it out. It is just additional security for both ends of the rope.


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## [email protected] (Dec 28, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Its true, that many don't have the second line in and the extra gear on site. I always have extra gear with me, but never set the extra line, tho I should. My boys can climb, not that great, but they can get up and move around. Think I need to practice this with them. I would be careful about training someone, I could see a huge liability suit waiting if one of your students pays half attention and gets someone hurt worse, then says, "Dan taught me"


That is why i am thinking about training people who already have most of the rescue/medical knowledge required and just need a bit of industry specific knowledge ie big shot arborist saddles etc. good point tho. cheers.


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## [email protected] (Dec 28, 2013)

Good post Shaun, I still have a lot to learn but i'll get there...

just a few things...

Are you saying the training is worthless so it should be scrapped or so it should be improved?

There are very few injuries that will leave a climber in a position where he is unable to lower himself off to ground, but able to stay suspended indefinitely without dying... the example was a seizure experienced by a trainee weeks ago.



imagineero said:


> In a real world situation it's not hard to rig yourself for rescue if that's a concern to you. Set a line in the tree, as normal, but then use that to haul up a ring with your climb line on it. whoopie sling at the base, with a rescue figure 8 locked off and tied off. Climb as per normal, if you get hurt the trained groundie can lower your whole setup down from the ground. Total investment about $20 for that one time you may get stuck and need lowering off, it could save your life bu nobody does it. Why? Don't trust your groundie to not cut the rope or lower you off properly? Neither do I. See where this is going?



you're talking about setting this up for drt, i use srt so it's even easier to set up though only super effective if i'm not double tied. (I do trust my main groundie/back up climber he has proven himself time and time again in crucial situations.)

Thanks.
Dan


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 28, 2013)

We do not live in a perfect world.
Jeff


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## imagineero (Dec 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Are you saying the training is worthless so it should be scrapped or so it should be improved?
> 
> There are very few injuries that will leave a climber in a position where he is unable to lower himself off to ground, but able to stay suspended indefinitely without dying... the example was a seizure experienced by a trainee weeks ago.



I think it ought to be scrapped. In my opinion it's just another way for employers to waive their duty of care and avoid future liability issues. Based on my experience, most of the guys doing the course struggle (or fail!) on the day, despite preparing with study beforehand, having been trained on the day, reminded several times, having the equipment ready, watching someone perform the exact same rescue immediately before they did, having their harness on, having no actual stress/pressure beyond passing the test, and receiving pointers while doing it! I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a week later they would all fail, and that several would make critical errors which would result in either themselves or the person they are rescuing being exposed to further danger or harm. I'd bet more than half would not even be able to remember the details of the rescue after a week. The techniques taught are too impractical, and too infrequently practiced to be of any use. In truth, a competent climber could make the rescue without any training, while an incompetent climber could never perform the rescue despite training. 

Before you get involved in giving rescue training, go and get some. The existing techniques are slow, and for a reason. 

Shaun


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## pdqdl (Dec 29, 2013)

imagineero said:


> ... In truth, a competent climber could make the rescue without any training, while an incompetent climber could never perform the rescue despite training.
> ...



Yep, so true. 

Here is the real problem, as mentioned previously. Almost nobody keeps two competent climbers on the same job. Nobody is going to pay climbers wages to a groundie, and not many climbers are willing to hang around as an underpaid groundie. There are probably a fair collection of foremen, bosses, and owners that could pull off a rescue but have gone a bit to seed from not doing it all the time. I would be a good example of the last group.

So...as a climber, you are pretty much committed to taking care of yourself.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm obviously part of a lucky minority that does have a good second climber/kit on site (who is paid the same as me as a secondary climber and foreman).
It's clear that generally current standards are not practical and current training ineffective.
I am going to try to improve my own skills and expand on my own experiences, and where possible make some positive changes to the arboriculture industry at lease in my neck of the woods.

Climb smart
Climb safe

Dan


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## treesmith (Dec 29, 2013)

We did aerial rescue at college, I doubt we could have saved many people in an urgent situation, not till we were any good at climbing anyway. It worked in the sense that you had a reference point, but it was basically a best case scenario, even the trees were perfect


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## beastmaster (Dec 30, 2013)

I took a rescue training class about 6 months ago. I wasn't impressed at all. Lots of the techniques are very gear intensive and complexed, to much so to do a rescue if time was important . Im not saying I didn't learn things, but not everything they teach is real world. I wouldn't hesitate a second to go up to rescue someone and I'm pretty confident I could do it safely and quickly.
Of course I don't have anyone who could rescue me 90% of the time. The best I could hope for is I could get an 8 plate hooked up. I'v showed my groundies how to work it from the ground. 
I am going to start using a gri gri on my SRT line that I attach to the base of the tree so I could possibly be lowered in case of a mishap.
I have very little faith in the majority of ground people I work with to be able to pull off anything but the simplest of maneuvers to save me if I needed it. I have great faith that they could do something that would be cause for me to be rescued though.
I'v had a groundy untie my SRT line at the base of a tree one time. Lucky for me it wasn't my only tie in.
I'd like to see more thought on palm rescue. Palms get a few climbers every year here in So. Calif. Often times there in back yards and near HV with no bucket or ladder access. You can die in as little as 7 minutes. I have a few techniques I use that could save you from a agonizing death. I've talked to my groundies about it before. In a last dish effort I'd want them to fall the palm.


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## imagineero (Dec 30, 2013)

I remember a case last year (wasn't the first time this has happened!) when a climber doing a washingtonia palm had the skirt collapse on him, pinning him arched over backwards still spiked in. He was unable to move and quickly suffocated. His ground crew could do nothing in the couple of minutes that it took for him to die. He was recovered by EMT workers as I recall. It made me look at palms with big skirts in a different way, though I'll admit I haven't come up with a better plan. I try to polesaw as much of the fronds off from the ground as I can before getting in the tree, mainly because I hate the dust and the spikes. 

I received a hairline fracture on the wrist this year from a washintonia frond. It was the most unlikely thing. The fronds only weigh a couple pounds dead. I cut a frond and it bounced in an odd way and the spiky end came down like a hummer swing and contacted a bone in my wrist with just one dead spike. Didn't hurt that much at the time but felt weird that night and I went in for an x ray and they found a hairline fracture there.


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## bootboy (Dec 30, 2013)

This is one thing I try to constantly be aware of while climbing. Part of preparing to make any significant cuts or moves in the tree, is thinking about possible consequences of your actions, and if in the unlikely event, how easily you can either self rescue or be accessed for rescue by someone else.

Inasmuch as possible, I try to always have two options: self rescue, and ground based rescue. Once you work those out, they're pretty easy to integrate into your climbing strategy.

Always be thinking ahead. It does two things, it improves your access, and keeps you out of trouble in the first place.


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## beastmaster (Dec 30, 2013)

Since I contract a lot, I find my self in dangerous situations. That is why I get called in the first place. If it was easy or safe they would have their climbers do it. The worse part is working with people I don't know. I am always aware of potentially dangerous situations and try my best to have back up plans in effect. Number one is having a direct line out of the tree. I like to have a rope choked around what I'm working on that I can come straight down on with a gri gri or a rope wrench one handed if need be.
Rigging up an escape line while bleeding out or crushed won't be easy. I'v been very lucky in my 30+ years of climbing. I'v never been seriously injured, but have had enough close calls and near misses to know it could happen in an instant. I'v seen a lot of bad accidents and try to minimize any chance of one by thinking out my moves in advance and having back up plans.
I wish climbers and ground people were better trained. I see guys all the time cutting over their ropes up in the tree. Or even over their limbs.
For every good climber there are half a dozen dummy's with barely a clue. I've seen disparate owner operators put people in trees that shouldn't be there when they had no one else. Lots of guys lie about their experience level. I'v seen some guys so loaded or tweeked out they shouldn't be driving never mind climbing a tree with a chain saw. My Grandma use to say God look out for drunks and fools, lots of climbers have double protection if that's true.
I know some big professional tree companies, follow all the rules and enforce safety, but most don't. I'm surprise more people don't get injured. It's not for lack of trying.
A good crew looks out for one another. I watch other climber when their in the trees, trying to be aware of where their ropes are, and what not. I'v had 5 people on the ground just staring up and not notice my lanyard was over a stub or i still had a rope attached to a piece I'm ready to cut. Once I had several guys holding the wrong rope as I cut a piece. 
My point is most the time your on your own up there and had better be looking out and try to be as safe as possible. being aware of the worse case scenario and taking precautions. Don't rush and don't climb when your tired and wore out, which is advice I need to follow my self.


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## N-m (Dec 30, 2013)

I do not work in this industry but have several thoughts that I would help someone since I do have personal experience in other areas.

First, my Podunk town has a ladder truck and numerous fat firemen. They are good people, but they are never going to fool with climbing a tree when they can call for another truck. Arguably the call to 911 will include a description of what is going on and the "fire brigade," as Shaun calls it, will roll that truck at the beginning. I would love to see the tree their truck can't reach around here, but that is no help for someone that does not live around here.

Second, a distant relative was working for asplundh and fell out of a tree. Reportedly he was over one hundred feet up when he cut his belt and landed on his back, breaking it. From the outside it looks like falls would be a bigger problem to address which negates the need for vertical rescue.

Third and again looking in from the outside, I would think blood loss for any number of reasons would be the most crucial thing for anyone running a saw in or out of a tree to address. If that's the case one should seriously consider addressing "self aid" where the injured actually takes care of theirself while/if still conscious before thinking about a rescue. A rescue in ideal conditions will not occur within minutes and you can easily bleed out by then, all the while conscious and capable of at least stopping blood loss if you have some simple training and tools.

In many circles it is now self aid, communicate there is a problem, continue self aid while awaiting rescue if one cannot rescue their self, and finally first aid by a rescuer and then an actual rescue. We still have people sitting around waiting on someone else to do something when they could easily save their own life since the injured does not know a few simple things.


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## imagineero (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't know anybody who carries a small first aid kit in the tree, but we probably ought to. There are straps on the back of some harnesses for carry it, the treemotion has them. We probably ought to carry at least a compression bandage, packaged in such a way you can open it one handed. Wouldn't hurt to have a practice at opening and applying it to yourself also. The most common saw injuries for climbers are all upper body, and mostly the left arm due to crossing arms while cutting or getting your cut/grab sequence confused while in a rush. One of the most life threatening injuries which I've seen a few times is where the climber reaches over their saw with the left arm, and the saw kicks back, making a good mess of the underneath of the left arm. 

We all have the most important tool for rescue which is our phone. Panic is a very real thing, and facing an emergency alone is never a good idea. Even just having EMT staff turn up gives a great feeling of relief which can make it easier to hold on. 

I'm very much a believer in self reliance, though I've worked in rescue in the past. I believe we all have only one freedom, which is the freedom to do whatever you want, and any time. We all have only one responsibility, which is to accept the consequences of our actions no matter what they are. Protection from the consequences of our actions often comes at the cost of freedoms, and looking at it in that light I prefer to be left to my own devices. To some extent I don't feel sorry for people who get hurt/killed in this line of work. The knowledgeable ones knew what they were doing, and accepted the risk. The ones that never took the time to learn shouldn't have been there in the first place, and rescuing them is kind of like saying it was ok to do what they did. Sounds kinda harsh, but climbing is a job for those who lead.

When it comes to self rescue strategies, there's the ground tie off which you can use either SRT or DRT if you trust your crew. Personally I don't use it. The primary parachute for me is proper techniques and skills, followed by the right mindset. There's no PPE in the world that substitutes for proper climbing, cutting and rigging. Using your head will keep you out of trouble, and if you have a good crew that keeps an eye out for you also then that's a big plus. The backup parachute for me is making sure my line always reaches the ground so I can get out of the tree in a hurry one handed if I need to. My crew is good about keeping my line untangled, clear, and out of the working zone so it will run true should I need it. 

Shaun


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## beastmaster (Dec 31, 2013)

TN RAT said:


> I do not work in this industry but have several thoughts that I would help someone since I do have personal experience in other areas.
> 
> First, my Podunk town has a ladder truck and numerous fat firemen. They are good people, but they are never going to fool with climbing a tree when they can call for another truck. Arguably the call to 911 will include a description of what is going on and the "fire brigade," as Shaun calls it, will roll that truck at the beginning. I would love to see the tree their truck can't reach around here, but that is no help for someone that does not live around here.
> 
> ...



A ladder truck is limited to where it can go. In the back yard or small access road, or a hilly or mountain environment where a lot of trees are, the fire dept. would be helpless. I don't think they climb trees, and surely not difficult trees. 
Self rescue is a giving if your conscience and alert. Its the situations where you are not in control of your situation. Passed out, pinned and can't move, arms blown off by HV wires,there are many scenarios, and there all bad.
I check into getting a pak of "blood stopper"' that could be poured on a big wound and suppose to make the blood clot up immediately. I've seen some guys wear them on the back of their saddles. I think I'd to with a a piece off rope tied off above the wound.
I don't think as many guys get injured from falling as the general public thinks. Electricity might be no. 1, getting cut or crushed up there also. Heart attacks or heat strokes, most of those don't lend them selfs to self rescue.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 1, 2014)

Your talking about QuickClot, they give it out to Jarheads. Leaves a nasty scar, but works.


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## beastmaster (Jan 1, 2014)

I read that it can do damage all by it self. Kind of turned me off from it. Most serious cut we suffer from are on our extremities and blood loss can be slowed with a compress or a really serious cut a tourniquet would be affective in an emergency.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 2, 2014)

It is nasty stuff, never used it myself, but I had a bunch of Marines that had. It burns the skin around the wound and the scares are raised and really nasty looking, BUT, it stops the bleeding. They carried that stuff and tampons on their flak. From what I was told, tampons saved alot of lives, perfect for bullet wounds. The clotting agents where used for IED wounds mainly. Again, not speaking from experience, but the majority of kids I had working for me at OCS where in the "chit" alot. Had one kid that did 131 vehicle recovery's, they try and limit a wrecker operator to 30, as most of the time, he is picking up his friends. This kid was blown up and shot several times, and he swears by that QuickClot..........and tampons! He is now a spec operator at MarSoc, which for u that don't know what that is, it means he would kick Rambo's aas!


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## squad143 (Jan 2, 2014)

beastmaster said:


> A ladder truck is limited to where it can go. In the back yard or small access road, or a hilly or mountain environment where a lot of trees are, the fire dept. would be helpless. I don't think they climb trees, and surely not difficult trees.
> Self rescue is a giving if your conscience and alert. Its the situations where you are not in control of your situation. Passed out, pinned and can't move, arms blown off by HV wires,there are many scenarios, and there all bad.
> I check into getting a pak of "blood stopper"' that could be poured on a big wound and suppose to make the blood clot up immediately. I've seen some guys wear them on the back of their saddles. I think I'd to with a a piece off rope tied off above the wound.
> I don't think as many guys get injured from falling as the general public thinks. Electricity might be no. 1, getting cut or crushed up there also. Heart attacks or heat strokes, most of those don't lend them selfs to self rescue.



I agree Beast. I work on one of North Americas largest fire departments and unless your in a spot that you could put a bucket truck in, an Aerial or Platform truck won't work and you're pretty much on your own. Unless you're lucky enough to have a tree guy on the fire truck and an extra pair of spikes available (fat chance) that is.

I'm fortunate with my tree business, in that I usually have another climber on the crew. I also give every crew member a blood stopper kit and everybody knows where are the first aid kits are. Additionally, we discuss at our tailgate meeting, the hazards of the job and even something simple as the address of where we're working and where it's written down (on the dash) in case they forget.

However, to answer the OP's original question of "how rescuable are we"? 
- Not very


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## Pelorus (Jan 2, 2014)

Does Toronto FD not have a high angle rescue component?
I quit the volunteer Mickey Mouse FD partly over not being allowed to take a rope tech course offered at the Fire College in Gravenhurst. Chief said "he (me) doesn't need that". And that was the end of it. Wanted to take the course just for my own benefit at my own expense - wouldn't have cost the Town or the FD anything. Sigh.


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## squad143 (Jan 3, 2014)

Pelorus said:


> Does Toronto FD not have a high angle rescue component?
> I quit the volunteer Mickey Mouse FD partly over not being allowed to take a rope tech course offered at the Fire College in Gravenhurst. Chief said "he (me) doesn't need that". And that was the end of it. Wanted to take the course just for my own benefit at my own expense - wouldn't have cost the Town or the FD anything. Sigh.



Yes we do. (I actually instruct HA while on shift). But it's mainly rappelling from buildings, bridges and cliffs. We do have a small component on ascending, however we as arborists rarely have a system in place that could be used by by anyone, including the FD.

I currently have our Special Operations section field testing the big shot, as a means of getting a line across rivers for swift water rescue. The crews are liking it, and when it does make it onto the trucks, could be used for setting lines in trees for rescue.

Sounds like your old Chief lost a good asset.


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## Pelorus (Jan 3, 2014)

Bigshot sounds like a good fit for swift water rescue. (and many shore based water rescue scenarios).
Local FD has a pool noodle type contraption that works (doesn't work very well at all) like a wind up sewer snake. Also have a largish floating throwball attached to bulky (polypropylene?) line that also works poorly and totally inaccurate for throws over about 50 feet.
Basically what it boils down to is that if someone runs into trouble up here either up a tree, or on the water, you are completely 100% screwed as far as counting on the local FD to rescue you, vs. retrieve you eventually.


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## Nemus Talea (Jan 3, 2014)

Do you guys think the industry is one lawsuit away from requiring two climbers on every crew / site?


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## pdqdl (Jan 5, 2014)

Lawyers make too much money; tree services do not. I don't think any amount of lawsuits will put more climbers on the job. 

It will just put more tree services out of business, with an increase in the number of hacks and solo operators that will decline to follow whatever rules are dreamed up by the lawyers to save us from ourselves.


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## beastmaster (Jan 5, 2014)

Nemus Talea said:


> Do you guys think the industry is one lawsuit away from requiring two climbers on every crew / site?


I seem to have read some where that CAL-OSHA or ANSI or some governing body required a rescued trained climber on the ground when ever a climber is in the tree. I'll try and see if I can find where I saw that at. Even if it is true, I have never personally meant a climber who has rescue training. I personally enjoy jobs where I can just work by my self. I rather climb down and untangle my rope my self, then have it all tangled with three groundmen, talking on their phones, smoking cigs, or hiding behind the truck. I do always carry my cell phone when in a tree in case I have to call 911 for someone.
Here in Calif. all the regulations and laws seem to be made to hurt the small business man. Adding a bunch of safety regs, no matter how much their needed buts a big burden on small owner operaters who try to stay legit, and just encourage those fly by nighters to farther break the rules.


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## beastmaster (Jan 5, 2014)

Ok I found it, but its a UK thing http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/afag402.pdf They regulate everything over across the pond.


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## TreeGuyHR (Mar 3, 2014)

I have my climber trainee and his gear on most jobs, the idea being that he would rescue me or vice-versa. Of course, we really should practice... If the climber is using SRT, a basic idea is to have two anchors at the base, one with a prusik and pulley attached to the line; that way the other tie-in can be untied and the climber let down by sliding the prusik.


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## treesmith (Mar 3, 2014)

beastmaster said:


> Ok I found it, but its a UK thing http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/afag402.pdf They regulate everything over across the pond.


Yep, any time you Americans feel your liberties are being crimped, go live in the UK for a year, you'll feel much better when you get home


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## TreeGuyHR (Mar 5, 2014)

beastmaster said:


> I seem to have read some where that CAL-OSHA or ANSI or some governing body required a rescued trained climber on the ground when ever a climber is in the tree. I'll try and see if I can find where I saw that at. Even if it is true, I have never personally meant a climber who has rescue training. I personally enjoy jobs where I can just work by my self. I rather climb down and untangle my rope my self, then have it all tangled with three groundmen, talking on their phones, smoking cigs, or hiding behind the truck. I do always carry my cell phone when in a tree in case I have to call 911 for someone.
> Here in Calif. all the regulations and laws seem to be made to hurt the small business man. Adding a bunch of safety regs, no matter how much their needed buts a big burden on small owner operaters who try to stay legit, and just encourage those fly by nighters to farther break the rules.



I almost snorted coffee out my nose reading this. On a big job one time, I and my expert climber were in the same tree (a large big -eaf maple with around 2 tons of ivy in it) At one point my three guys on the ground all disappeared. Had to climb down and move brush off of our ropes. It seems it took three guys to obsessively use the same spot to pile limbs and ivy, so they all piled in the pick-up and chopped brush for an hr out of ear shot and sight. (We were dumping the un-chippable junk in a ravine).

Sigh. Times like that make you want to hit 'em with a small chunk on purpose to get their attention. I didn't want to be the baddie, so i told the group that there was a "miss-communication", but told them one at a time that what happened was not acceptable. You tell groundiies that there is an order of importance: stay out of the way, look at the climber every few minutes, keep the LZ and ropes clear, THEN drag brush and VERY LAST cut up wood. 

Perfect storm of headuparse. Make another pile!!


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## Nemus Talea (Mar 5, 2014)

TreeGuyHR said:


> stay out of the way, look at the climber every few minutes, keep the LZ and ropes clear, THEN drag brush and VERY LAST cut up wood.



But... where is "chatting on the cell phone", "rolling a fatty" or "play with home owners dog" on the list?

Good default groundie responsibilities.


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## treesmith (Mar 5, 2014)

Hi I posted this in another thread talking about wire core flip-lines when someone mentioned a wire core prussik, should have posted it here too so... 

Worst case scenario in a rescue you need a quick release part, something that can be cut with a knife. You can't guarantee being able to release/unclip a flip-line under tension in certain situations so it makes sense to have a fast way of release. I was also taught to carry an aerial rescue knife at all times


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## imagineero (Mar 6, 2014)

Is there something special about an aerial rescue knife that makes it different from a normal knife?


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## treesmith (Mar 6, 2014)

No, just a knife for an aerial rescue


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## beastmaster (Mar 6, 2014)

treesmith said:


> No, just a knife for an aerial rescue



There are knifes made just to cut rope, the spyderco harpy comes to mind. It takes a strong sharp knife to quickly cut through rope.


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## treesmith (Mar 6, 2014)

imagineero said:


> Is there something special about an aerial rescue knife that makes it different from a normal knife?


 Sorry should have said this - locking one that can be opened one handed is good, kept round the neck or somewhere equally easily accessible, needs to be razor sharp


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## beastmaster (Mar 6, 2014)

check out this bad boy.

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=3


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## pdqdl (Mar 6, 2014)

I don't care how cool, hard, or sharp your knife is, if it is coming up against beeline or some of the other tough new synthetic fibers, it is going to be some work cutting it.

Serrated definitely helps, though.


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## [email protected] (Mar 7, 2014)

http://www.myswissarmyknife.com.au/...-sheath.html?gclid=CNeS-ubn_7wCFQEepQodfXsAWw
This is my rescue knife, strapped to my harness at all times. designed for general rescue so has some features i don't utilise ie. glass breaker but cuts like a hot knife through butter.


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## beastmaster (Mar 7, 2014)

pdqdl said:


> I don't care how cool, hard, or sharp your knife is, if it is coming up against beeline or some of the other tough new synthetic fibers, it is going to be some work cutting it.
> 
> Serrated definitely helps, though.[/quote
> 
> I think in a pinch i would use my silky hand saw. I don't like wearing stuff around my neck and i some times have a hard time getting stuff out of my pants pocket with my climbing belt on.


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## imagineero (Mar 7, 2014)

There's a good video out there of silky handsaws vs cordage. The silky wins, and a lot faster than you might think. Worth watching, it makes you think about using that handsaw a lot more carefully when deploying it.


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## RichGSkyline (Mar 22, 2014)

TreeGuyHR said:


> I almost snorted coffee out my nose reading this. On a big job one time, I and my expert climber were in the same tree (a large big -eaf maple with around 2 tons of ivy in it) At one point my three guys on the ground all disappeared. Had to climb down and move brush off of our ropes. It seems it took three guys to obsessively use the same spot to pile limbs and ivy, so they all piled in the pick-up and chopped brush for an hr out of ear shot and sight. (We were dumping the un-chippable junk in a ravine).
> 
> Sigh. Times like that make you want to hit 'em with a small chunk on purpose to get their attention. I didn't want to be the baddie, so i told the group that there was a "miss-communication", but told them one at a time that what happened was not acceptable. You tell groundiies that there is an order of importance: stay out of the way, look at the climber every few minutes, keep the LZ and ropes clear, THEN drag brush and VERY LAST cut up wood.
> 
> Perfect storm of headuparse. Make another pile!!


You brought back a very strong memory with your response. I laughed and then my blood boiled again. Back when I was a very junior climber (I've been at it since 87) my foreman decided I should climb and he and the groundman should stay down. when I blew the top out of an 80 ft aspen I was taking down it sprang back from its lean and wacked me in the nuts and chest knocking the chain saw out of my hands. It hit the ground (no lanyard) When I called for the guys to help me there was no one in ear shot. They were getting high in the truck! When I got to the ground I grabbed my foreman by the shirt lifted him onto his toes slammed him against a tree and told him the next time he wouldn't see me coming! Probably the worst day of work in close to 30yrs in the business


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## Zale (Mar 22, 2014)

Rock'n Richy said:


> You brought back a very strong memory with your response. I laughed and then my blood boiled again. Back when I was a very junior climber (I've been at it since 87) my foreman decided I should climb and he and the groundman should stay down. when I blew the top out of an 80 ft aspen I was taking down it sprang back from its lean and wacked me in the nuts and chest knocking the chain saw out of my hands. It hit the ground (no lanyard) When I called for the guys to help me there was no one in ear shot. They were getting high in the truck! When I got to the ground I grabbed my foreman by the shirt lifted him onto his toes slammed him against a tree and told him the next time he wouldn't see me coming! Probably the worst day of work in close to 30yrs in the business




That is definitely not cool. Not sharing, that is.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 22, 2014)

Isn't it amazing how fast the tree can bounce back and smack you?
I have been giving this thread a lot of thought in the last few weeks. Around here, I don't see 911 being able to do much for a hurt climber up in a tree. At least not in a timely manner. I really think that if I can't get myself to the ground, then I will die before help arrives. Using a steel lanyard like I do makes rescue even harder. The question becomes.... keep the steel lanyard and reduce the odds of accidentally cutting through it, or give up its protection so I can be more easily rescued? Decisions, decisions.


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## treesmith (Mar 22, 2014)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Using a steel lanyard like I do makes rescue even harder. The question becomes.... keep the steel lanyard and reduce the odds of accidentally cutting through it, or give up its protection so I can be more easily rescued? Decisions, decisions.



Have a weak link where it attaches to your harness, something you can cut, if its close to your body it should be safe from saw cuts unless things go really wrong, but then you're screwed anyway


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 22, 2014)

Currently using the Stainless Steel half twist from Sherrill. They offered a fabric loop of some kind for the same purpose, but I was concerned how long it would hold up. May have to reconsider the loop again.
I still don't know that it matters. If I can't get myself down, I really believe help will arrive too late. It might be different if I had a second climber handy, but that doesn't happen very often.


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## beastmaster (Mar 23, 2014)

steel core lanyards are more psychological I think then really effective. I saw a demonstration where they hit a tight steel core lanyard with a 066 and it cut through no problem. It might offer some protection from a bad nick comming a part. When I was first learning I was told only one thing I had to remember, not to cut my lanyard, and 30+ years later I always know where that ropes at before I make a cut. That being said, when I was first learning SRT i cut my climbing line with a silky hand saw. If I hadn't had a second tie in i may of died. Almost stopped climbing because of it. Was my own fault i was cutting around the tree and couldn't see what I was cutting. The line was some how zig zagged around the back of the tree. It don't take much to cut a single line under tension.
A lot of times production is put before safety, this causes guys to take short cuts, this is especially true on big crews with several climbers, each trying to out do the others.
With the industry in the shape its in climbers are being pushed to be faster to make up for less profit. You have to watch out for your self. Lots of people put profit before safety.
I love this business, but it seems to be going backwards instead of forward, safety wise as well as money wise.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 23, 2014)

I am aware that a wire core can be cut, it just takes more to do so. A big saw can also cut through chaps, but they still are better protection than jeans. I use the 200T for the vast majority of my cutting aloft, and I think it will need a moment or two to cut through the steel core. Will that be enough time for me to react and stop the cut? Not sure, but it has to be better than just plain rope.
When using a larger saw aloft, I go into 'extra careful' mode as it just isn't normal for me


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## imagineero (Mar 23, 2014)

I recommend you destroy all your old gear. I do it with everything I buy, it's educational. I've destroyed maybe 20 pairs of steel caps. Interesting to see just how much load they'll take. I do the same with my old wire cores, ropes etc. Put one end in a vice, put a harness on, clip the other end to yourself then have at it with an old (but sharp) chain on your climbing saw, an old hand saw blade etc. The thing I found about the wire core is that it's no harder to cut through than the rope, but you can feel it a little more... both in your body and with the saw. You really can't notice with the rope except for the fluff going everywhere. I'll video the next one I do.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 23, 2014)

I have an old wire core here that I plan to destroy. Want to have a few guys around to see it as well.
Would be very interested in seeing the video. Years back I saw one where they were cutting lanyards with a hand saw. Zip...cut! No sawing needed.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 23, 2014)

My bottom line, when it comes to the subject of this thread, timely rescue is unlikely if we can't get ourselves down. I am looking for ways to get down if hurt. The biggest factor is finding ways to avoid getting hurt in the first place. Climbers injured by moving wood seems too common. Same with chainsaw injuries. My focus is in that direction for now.


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## Valandscaper (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm pretty new to the business myself, I don't have another climber on the crew but I do have one groundie that works my ropes. Rule is don't touch a rope unless he tells you to. I know this dosent remove the chance for an accident but it sure does take some of the risk out. As far as rescue most of my removals or prunes require rigging, with that being said my groundies know that in the case of me injuring myself ( chainsaw cut or hit with limb, etc) that if I'm conscious I'm coming down on the the rigging line. We have even practiced that having them lower me via the porta-wrap. I'm sure there are 10 reasons why I shouldn't do that but a rope that can hold large the pices I rig down should sure be able to hold me. It's also the only option I have where I can be helped from the ground.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 23, 2014)

I think you need to reconsider that plan. Why change ropes? Just come down the one you are already tied to. Either way you have to release your second tip. If you can do that, just come down on your friction hitch or whatever decent mode you have rigged before making the cut. Easier to do that than retie yourself to the rigging rope, cutting free of the first and second tips, and have them lower you.
The problem comes when you are too hurt to undo the second tip.


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## arborlicious (Mar 23, 2014)

imagineero said:


> I recommend you destroy all your old gear. I do it with everything I buy, it's educational. I've destroyed maybe 20 pairs of steel caps. Interesting to see just how much load they'll take. I do the same with my old wire cores, ropes etc. Put one end in a vice, put a harness on, clip the other end to yourself then have at it with an old (but sharp) chain on your climbing saw, an old hand saw blade etc. The thing I found about the wire core is that it's no harder to cut through than the rope, but you can feel it a little more... both in your body and with the saw. You really can't notice with the rope except for the fluff going everywhere. I'll video the next one I do.



Great idea Shaun. Although I like the idea of letting someone else wearing the harness while I operate the saw.


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

Valandscaper said:


> I'm pretty new to the business myself, I don't have another climber on the crew but I do have one groundie that works my ropes. Rule is don't touch a rope unless he tells you to. I know this dosent remove the chance for an accident but it sure does take some of the risk out. As far as rescue most of my removals or prunes require rigging, with that being said my groundies know that in the case of me injuring myself ( chainsaw cut or hit with limb, etc) that if I'm conscious I'm coming down on the the rigging line. We have even practiced that having them lower me via the porta-wrap. I'm sure there are 10 reasons why I shouldn't do that but a rope that can hold large the pices I rig down should sure be able to hold me. It's also the only option I have where I can be helped from the ground.


In an absolute emergency I'd use that if I had to, if you're losing consciousness or whatever, it could save your life. I know we're not supposed to and I wouldn't recommend it but the ability to do it can't be a bad thing. In a situation where you'd otherwise die its a no-brainer

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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

Somebody please explain why you would want to come down on the rig line, when you are already attached to a climbing line. If I was climbing by myself and dropped my climb line somehow, I would be willing to come down the rig rope, if it was an option. That is not the situation at hand.
Picture this.... you are all tied in with two tips and start a cut. The saw kicks back and smacks you in the face. Let's say that you are cut on the cheek and forehead, bleeding pretty bad. You are dazed and having trouble seeing due to blood dripping in your eye. You are still able to move with limited mobility.
So you guys are telling me, that instead of just undoing the second tip and sliding down on a descent device, you would try to tie in to a rig line and be lowered.
Please describe step by step how you are going to become attached to the rig rope, and unattached from your two tips and then lowered. In what situation would you be able to do this, yet be unable to simply come down the climbing line?


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

I'd use it in an absolute emergency when I couldn't self lower or was worried I'd lose consciousness before that bottom. We're talking worst case scenario here, you never know what can happen til it does, there are many possible ways arb work can go wrong

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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

I want the step by step thought process. If you are worried about passing out before you could lower yourself to the ground, how would you not pass out during the time required to tie in to another line? I'm just not seeing how it would be the better choice. If I'm missing something here, fine, please help me see it.


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

I cut my climbing line would be a good reason

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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

My saw kicked back into my arm and chest would be another, I'd be more worried about stopping the blood loss and fainting, could also cut your climb line at the same time, if you're lucky you can get to the lowering line

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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

Something goes wrong and your head gets crushed by something heavy, there's blood coming out of your ears and you keep passing out

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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm not arguing for the sake of it and I'm certainly not recommending the lowering rope as a general rescue method but, in the right circumstances I'd use it, I hope I never have to.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

If I cut through my climb line and am not injured, no problem, I will have the climb line sent back up. If, in the process of getting injured, I cut my climb line as well, then I agree with using the rig line. Attach with a figure 8, undo the second tip and step off. The ground crew can control my descent speed with tension on the rope. I just have to stay conscious long enough to attach and step off. 
I think getting injured AND cutting away my climb line at the same time is unlikely, but it is certainly possible. I do not like the idea of trying to tie in to another line in an injured condition. I think it would be a last choice.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

treesmith said:


> Something goes wrong and your head gets crushed by something heavy, there's blood coming out of your ears and you keep passing out
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk


No worries mate. I wear a helmet!


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

treesmith said:


> I'm not arguing for the sake of it and I'm certainly not recommending the lowering rope as a general rescue method but, in the right circumstances I'd use it, I hope I never have to.
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk



I'm not taking it as arguing. I like hashing out ideas. Better to already have a plan when the poop hits the blower. Keep talking. I wish a few others would join in with ideas.
In aviation, we have a reg that says " in the event of an emergency, the pilot may deviate from any rules necessary, to meet with that emergency". In other words.... don't worry about the rules, save lives!


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

Me too  
They're only so good though and that's mainly from directly above, side impact is a different story


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

Made me think of the story Beans told about dropping big chunks and having a groundie walking into the drop zone. He yelled at the guy, who replied "It's OK, I'm wearing a helmet".


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

I watched a program last night on Spetznaz, the Russian special forces. One of the boys was saying how people think that they can deal with a certain situation, but, when that situation comes up the reality is beyond what they imagined it to be and they can't cope. That's when the training and the personal experience comes in. I did rescue as part of my college course, I know I'll never rescue in those circumstances as they were virtually perfect but it did give a reference point however unrealistic. It was a low stress situation rescuing a physically capable relaxed uninjured climber not far up a perfect and very tidy oak tree. If i remember right a little bit of branch walking too but certainly an unconscious/panicked/bleeding or whatever hanging upside down on a half sectioned spar

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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

One thing I'm getting from this discussion..... on dicey cuts, it might be better to be rigged on a figure 8, rather than a friction hitch. YOU have to hold the friction hitch. With a figure 8, your descent can be controlled by a groundie.


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

That's one thing I should get

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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

Two things I never leave the ground without having on my harness....... figure 8 and hand saw. They are almost PPE to me.


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## Valandscaper (Mar 24, 2014)

The scenario for me would be a cut gone wrong or hit with a limb. I climb on a tree motion and have 2 attachment points on my bridge one swivel and the standard ring it comes with. My rigging line has a loop and a rigging biner on the end so I can use it on smaller pices with no need to tie and untie knots. So for me it's easy, I get cut take rigging line attach biner that's already there to point 2 on my bridge then cut climb line or disconnect etc... My groundie lowers me on the porta wrap. We practiced this a few times and it takes about 10 seconds from the oh **** moment to me headed down. Not saying its the best way but it it the simplest for my crew. They use the rigging line and porta wrap 50 times a day so it is second nature. No training needs to be recalled no special equip they need to remember how to use and I don't have to tie a single knot or work a multi lock biner. The one on my rigging line is a click and go no fancy twist or pull lock like my climbing biners. In an emergency you actions need to be second nature, if I'm injured or heat exhaustion whatever happens I just turn myself into another limb and head down. I should also include I climb on a Blake's hitch iv never tried all the fancy friction devices. So me self descending requires a little more than just pulling the handle. It also leaves room for a possible tangle in the line or line caught in brush whatever that I am in no condition to deal with. ( yes I do make sure to keep my line clear but in this situation perfect world is out the door) I I'm on the rigging I'm their problem there are 3 of them to make sure the line is clear and to control my decent in the simpleist manner possible the way they do it all day.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

Sounds good except one case I can think of....... if you get hit by the branch, there is already wood on the rig line. It has to be lowered first, unclipped, the line hauled back up to you, then you can clip on, cut loose, and be lowered. I would just clip a biner from my saddle to the rig line, and come down with the wood to save time.
During practice, was the rig line already connected to a branch? A second tip used? Did you do it one handed to simulate an arm injury?


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## imagineero (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't know why so many guys are keen on figure 8's. They're one of the most overrated devices ever made in my opinion.


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

Just bought a petzl figure 8 off eBay!

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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

Aren't they better than coming down on the friction device, Shaun? Is there a better way? I've burnt prussiks before just by coming down

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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

imagineero said:


> I don't know why so many guys are keen on figure 8's. They're one of the most overrated devices ever made in my opinion.


Shaun,
I'd like to hear why you say that. 
For me it is a backup descending device. If something happens to my e2e, I can still get down fast and safe. I know a climber that goes up to his highest working point, then converts to a figure 8 and works his way down. I prefer a friction hitch for the ease of up and down it allows. After tonight, I think I might pre-rig the 8 on dicey cuts, just in case.


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## imagineero (Mar 24, 2014)

Not for one specific reason, but for a whole bunch. I don't know what guys use them for. As a descending device they're pretty awful in my opinion. There's a bunch of trucks to them, like you can thread them upside down to get more friction, and you can use them with a doubled rope, you can get a psuedo lock off by treading the rope in a certain way. But I just think they're cumbersome and not really all that useful. They twist the rope something fierce. If I was going to carry something I'd probably carry a gri gri or a sticht plate. I use the gri gri occasionally for a weird sort of lowering scenario that I just kind of try and avoid taking those jobs nowadays.


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## Valandscaper (Mar 24, 2014)

I did do it one handed, no wood was attached but I carry at least one webbing sling with me all the time to use as a small redirect or to send 2 limbs. I normally wouldn't use them to climb but in a emergency I could simply clip in with it to the rigging line. And in practice inwas on 1 rope and a wire core lanyard. I clipped rigging line on, unhooked climb line, then kicked out my spikes to take weight off flip line and transfer to rigging, that let me drop the rope grab on the flip line still one handed and inwas headed down


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 24, 2014)

Sounds like a fair test. Would like to see the video if you ever do it again. 
I seldom use a spliced rig line and biner because of the side loads on the biner. You can avoid that by using a sling, but then it is just faster for me to tie it on. Your plan fits much better in your work system than it does in my system. More ideas for me to think about.?


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

I worked with a climber before who used the figure 8 to come down, I'd used them years ago for rock climbing and then forgot about them. The more I think about it the more I like it. You can lower yourself and the groundie can lower you too. The rope can be choked on itself around the stem and you just come down the one rope leg. 

I used an eye to eye with pulley on my wire core for the first time last week, took me a little while to trust it fully on a bare stem but its good, looks like the rope grab is history now

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## imagineero (Mar 24, 2014)

It was the first device I ever used as a rock climber. Sticht plate has all the advantages that you mentioned of the 8, works on single and doubled ropes, and can be used by either yourself or the groundie to lower you off (if it's attached to you). It's also smaller and lighter and doesn't twist the rope, and just as cheap. Did I mention that I hate devices that twist the rope? ;-)


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/standard-descenders/huit


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## imagineero (Mar 24, 2014)

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belay-devices/reverso-3


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=...w=800&h=531&ei=gRIwU9aUNtHrkwWRn4CIBw&zoom=1


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## imagineero (Mar 24, 2014)

yeah that's pretty old school ;-) But the modern takes on it like the reverso, the ATC, and every other knock off made by everyone is generally an improvement for all round use. The sticht plate is still my favorite belay (only) device though!


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## treesmith (Mar 24, 2014)

I've used it before, I cannot for the life of me remember when, it worked well, no twists etc


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## beastmaster (Mar 25, 2014)

I'v learn more about descending devices in this thread then i learned in my whole life. I'v seen the reverso at climbing shops but couldn't figure out how to use one, after watching the video I think I'll buy one. Tell then I always carry a figure 8. I figure in the right situation it could save yours or someone else's life, enabling the ground crew to lower the injured person.
It good to be aware of the limitation we face as far as rescue goes. I climb different today then I did even 10 years ago. I am a safer climber. I always have a second tie in these days when blocking out a spar. I choke the truck with a gri gri and biner, down low. I use a figure 8(now a retired gri gri)when I anchor my SRT line at the base of a tree so I could be lowered in an emergency. In difficult to access trees I like to leave a line above me anchored to the ground so someone could if able get up the tree to rescue me or I them. It's a small thing but quick access could be the difference between life and death. I'll leave the "rescue line", in the tree tell the jobs done.
You have to be flexable and do what each situation dictates. If an accident happens it is just as likely to be a situation you never even thought about or planed for. Like the motto of a true scout, be prepared.


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## treesmith (Mar 25, 2014)

I've been doing some looking and most belay/rappelling devices are designed for skinny rock climbing rope up to 11mm, I use 13mm which really restricts availability. At least that's what I'm finding

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## imagineero (Mar 25, 2014)

Which rope are you climbing on? 13mm is kind of nice in the hand, but as you mentioned it doesn't work too well with most devices, also doesn't go too well with ascenders and SRT stuff. 11.7mm is a pretty good compromise.


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## treesmith (Mar 25, 2014)

Ddrt, Yale xtc 13mm, as you say its lovely in the hand, grippy. I've always used it, its nice in freezing/wet conditions too

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## imagineero (Mar 25, 2014)

12 strand or 16?


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## treesmith (Mar 25, 2014)

16 the same as xtc spearmint but red not green

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## beastmaster (Mar 25, 2014)

I've been slowly switching to thinner and thinner lines. I don't even own any 1/2"' line any more. My go line these days is 11mm blaze. A 13mm line won't hardly go through a gri gri, and I use footlocking a lot and it's just as easy to to footlock 11 or 11.5mm then 13mm, with out the extra bulk and weight. I used some 11.7 Lava and it felt pretty good in my hands. Then I use a 1/2" rope these days it fells like a bull line to me.


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## imagineero (Mar 25, 2014)

treesmith said:


> 16 the same as xtc spearmint but red not green
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk



If you're on the 16 you won't have any trouble transitioning to a smaller 16 strand. I find a lot of guys don't like going from 12 strand to 16 even if they're only on 1/2". blue moon/poison ivy is pretty nice. Maybe get a short length like 75' and start using it on smaller trees. You'll start liking it soon enough ;-)


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## [email protected] (May 3, 2014)

A tricky rescue scenario that I think is worth considering is a tall single leader, branches removed, top removed, climber just on flipline and using climbing line as flipline, the climber can be a challenge to reach and descending with them can be challenging too.

When I'm in this situation, really whenever I'm blocking out etc I have my flipline as normal, and clip my lifeline off on itself choking it and creating an SRT line, it takes 1/2 a second to do, and if something goes wrong I've got an access line; the rescuer can ascend quick, set up their line and bring me down on my line as is. (I adapted this technique from similar ones taught by *Odis Sisk* at aerial rescue seminar in Aus last year)

Thoughts..?


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## DR. P. Proteus (May 3, 2014)

Well, in short, this is I how I approach it:

I know that when my carabiner is shut, it will hold. The rest?
Its a gamble, luck of the draw.


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## imagineero (May 3, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> A tricky rescue scenario that I think is worth considering is a tall single leader, branches removed, top removed, climber just on flipline and using climbing line as flipline, the climber can be a challenge to reach and descending with them can be challenging too.
> 
> When I'm in this situation, really whenever I'm blocking out etc I have my flipline as normal, and clip my lifeline off on itself choking it and creating an SRT line, it takes 1/2 a second to do, and if something goes wrong I've got an access line; the rescuer can ascend quick, set up their line and bring me down on my line as is. (I adapted this technique from similar ones taught by *Odis Sisk* at aerial rescue seminar in Aus last year)
> 
> Thoughts..?



To me, that scenario is probably one of the easiest, at least if your rescuer is another tree climber. Spur right up that thing in no time flat, use my pole belt or a sling to set a TIP, use my or your rope through it, clip your body to me with your pole belt, cut your line as needed with hand saw and away we go. I don't see that you make yourself any more rescueable by choking your life line off, and if anything you make retreat for yourself harder unless you are an SRT climber and already setup to descend SRT. Climbers don't have gear at hand generally to ascend or lower off SRT, and if they do it's generally not adjustable enough in terms of friction for a two person lower off.

One of the big beefs I have with most rescue techniques taught are that they are too gear intensive and complicated, and that most guys are not going to have that gear on site and ready to go or be familiar enough with using it to confidently effect a rescue without scratching their head when the pressure is on.


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## Magnum783 (May 4, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> A tricky rescue scenario that I think is worth considering is a tall single leader, branches removed, top removed, climber just on flipline and using climbing line as flipline, the climber can be a challenge to reach and descending with them can be challenging too.
> 
> When I'm in this situation, really whenever I'm blocking out etc I have my flipline as normal, and clip my lifeline off on itself choking it and creating an SRT line, it takes 1/2 a second to do, and if something goes wrong I've got an access line; the rescuer can ascend quick, set up their line and bring me down on my line as is. (I adapted this technique from similar ones taught by *Odis Sisk* at aerial rescue seminar in Aus last year)
> 
> Thoughts..?


That is exactly what I do. I cary a figure eight with me at all times for that situation exactly. Usually I leave a biner on the end of my line with an anchor hitch and figure I would just throw it around what ever and where ever throw the figure eight in and hope I have done it quickly enough that i have not passed out or transpired. Maybe not the best situation but the one I have worked through the most in my head. Imagineero has a a good point electricians do the pole scenario all the time so that does not other me the one that bothers me is the one way out a limb. Hence why I have gone for the scenario I developed.


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## pdqdl (May 4, 2014)

I hear about rescue plans and rescue techniques, but has anyone you know ever done one? Nobody working for me even has a clue, and I don't bother to have a second set of climbing equipment around.

By the time you have a second climber on site, gear up, and proceed to do a rescue...isn't it probably a bit late? Don't the firemen and the ladder truck get there first? And generally too late, also?


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## imagineero (May 5, 2014)

pdqdl said:


> By the time you have a second climber on site, gear up, and proceed to do a rescue...isn't it probably a bit late? Don't the firemen and the ladder truck get there first? And generally too late, also?



Go back and read the thread from the start


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## [email protected] (May 5, 2014)

imagineero said:


> To me, that scenario is probably one of the easiest, at least if your rescuer is another tree climber. Spur right up that thing in no time flat, use my pole belt or a sling to set a TIP, use my or your rope through it, clip your body to me with your pole belt, cut your line as needed with hand saw and away we go. I don't see that you make yourself any more rescueable by choking your life line off, and if anything you make retreat for yourself harder unless you are an SRT climber and already setup to descend SRT. Climbers don't have gear at hand generally to ascend or lower off SRT, and if they do it's generally not adjustable enough in terms of friction for a two person lower off.
> 
> One of the big beefs I have with most rescue techniques taught are that they are too gear intensive and complicated, and that most guys are not going to have that gear on site and ready to go or be familiar enough with using it to confidently effect a rescue without scratching their head when the pressure is on.



I am an SRT climber so always have the gear on me when I'm climbing, and with this system the rescuer goes up on the access line and sets up his own line so each person descends on their own line. As I am an SRT Climber I'm much quicker ascending when I have an access line, as is my secondary climber who is familiar with my setup.

I agree that many rescue techniques are gear intensive, this one uses only the gear I climb with normally. I have adapted it to meet my needs using the gear I have on hand; that is a fair point that this is not suitable for many climbers as they may not have the gear.

Either way making the retreat harder isn't an issue, you could revert to your scenario; you cut their line with your handsaw and set up a new line for you both to descend on, it at worst give the option of using an access line which you may not find helpful but i would.

Dan


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## pdqdl (May 6, 2014)

imagineero said:


> Go back and read the thread from the start



I have been with this thread from the beginning. 4th post, right after your third.

I don't see your point. Please elaborate.


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## imagineero (May 6, 2014)

pdqdl said:


> I have been with this thread from the beginning. 4th post, right after your third.
> 
> I don't see your point. Please elaborate.





pdqdl said:


> By the time you have a second climber on site, gear up, and proceed to do a rescue...isn't it probably a bit late? Don't the firemen and the ladder truck get there first? And generally too late, also?



These questions have already been asked and answered in post #3, post #18, posts #22-24,


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## treesmith (May 6, 2014)

One thing this last week has taught me is that no matter how rescuable you make yourself, if you drop a branch onto ??Kv without letting go, any rescue plan is irrelevant. Don't know much about it but 22yrs old is too young, poor bugger


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## pdqdl (May 7, 2014)

imagineero said:


> These questions have already been asked and answered in post #3, post #18, posts #22-24,



I was responding to #98 & #100, in an attempt to return to the original topic of the thread "How rescue-able are we". I'm sorry that you don't see the point I was making. I had, however, forgotten about your extensive experience in the field of rescue.


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