# What makes a good deer hunter? Trophy management? L&T disease!



## Arrowhead (Sep 18, 2011)

Here are my opinions on the above mentioned subjects. I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way.

I'm by *NO* means an expert, but I have spent some time in the woods. I've been bow hunting for 24 years and have taken almost 70 deer with my bow. I hunt some private ground, (shared by others that I don't know) and some public ground. This area I would consider very high pressured. It's almost impossible to spend a day in the tree and not have somebody walking around. I would love to someday own my own property to deer hunt, but unless I win the lottery, that ain't happening.


Yesterday I was working on a mount for a customer. It was his first bow deer, a 1 1/2 old 7pt. He's about 40 years old and was happy as heck to get that deer, as he should very well be. I hunted several years before I finally shot my first deer with the bow in 91. It was a doe and I can still remember that day like it was yesterday. She hangs in my shop and I consider her my best trophy. 

I run across this quite often. 
While I was working on this small 7pt. , a couple of guys walked into my shop. They mentioned they were scouting the public property across the road and wanted to see my work. Both these guys were in their early 20's, decked out with Under Armor and still smelled like Wal-mart. And yes, their truck was covered in hunting decals. :msp_rolleyes:

They mentioned they were new to deer hunting and have never taken a deer yet. With that said, they both looked at that 7pt. and asked how anyone could should that. They said they would have passed on it to let it grow into a trophy. That's where I got a little disturbed. You have never taken a deer, yet your a trophy manager??? That was my thought, I did not say that to them. I simply replied, if I was in the guys shoes that shot this deer, I would have also, and been proud as a peacock !! I explained it was his first deer and he worked hard to get it. They looked at me like I was strange. I showed them my doe mount, and explained to them it was my first, and meant the most to me than any of the bucks hanging on the wall. I explained how though it can get around here with all the pressure. I've told them how I've hunted that public ground before and never laid eyes on a deer sometimes for weeks. It's realworld hunting, not TV. I told them I have more respect for the guy that can harvest a doe on public property than the guy hunting private property,on the edge of a sanctuary that kills a 180" buck. These two guys suffer from what I call L&T disease. (Lee and Tiffany disease) They watch these shows on TV that make shooting a 180" buck look easy. In the real world, as you guys know... it's not. If I can even lay my eye's on a live 180" buck once every 10 years, I'm doing good. I run across this L&T disease quite often, and it bugs me. I hope what I said changes their minds. Nothing against Lee and Tiffany, if I had their money, land, and time to hunt, I would prolly do the same thing. But in the realworld, I'm happy with that 2 year old buck that I spent 40 hours freezing my butt off sitting in a tree to get!

I've said this for years.... *"It's not how good of a hunter you are, it's how good is your spot to hunt."* Are you going to pass on a 175" buck, just because you think he's only 3 1/2 years old and has not reached his potential, like they do on TV??? NOT ME! I guess if you own 1000's of acres in prime areas you can do so. I think that only adds up to 1% of deer hunters though.

A good example of this has to do with a couple of customers/friends that would bring in 170" to 200" bucks every year to my shop. I got to know Scott and Mike pretty well over the years. They told me where they were hunting. It's about 15 minutes from my house. They were the only 2 that had permission to hunt this farmers land. Mike is a cop, which helps him gain permission. This farmer had about 300 acres surrounded on 3 sides by DNR Wildlife Preserve on 2 sides and County Nature Preserve on the other. Both preserves are off limits to ANY human traffic. They were almost in the middle of a square mile off limits to anybody else. All Oak woods surrounded by corn and bean fields. It was nothing for them to see 75 deer and 75 turkeys every time they went out. Once Scott shot a 155" 11pt. just because his boss wanted a deer head over his fireplace. Otherwise he let deer like that pass!! About 6 or 7 years ago, Scott shot the #2 muzzleloader in the state that year. The same year Mike shot a 192" buck with his bow. They were considered to be some of the best hunters in the area. Well........ the farmer that owned the property passed away and the kids sold it to the County Preserve. This happened 5 years ago. Scott or Mike have not brought a head in since! Why? I thought they were the best hunters in the area?? Now they are hunting public ground and some small pieces of pressured private ground like I am. I'm not slamming them, I do consider them friends. They still stop in from time to time, and have both said... "If I knew deer hunting was this hard, I would have not even started."
This was an example of a couple of average hunters that had one of the best spots possibly in the State! These deer had no pressure, and room to grow large. Neither Mike nor Scott played the wind, neither wore Scent-lok or did anything to help control human odor. In fact, Mike would smoke in his tree stand. Good hunters? or Good spot to hunt?

Sorry this is so winded guys. I'm just tired of what TV has turned deer hunting into. Hopefully younger/newer hunters may read this and get a better view of hunting and what's considered a trophy.

My son may start bow hunting with me this fall. I pray his first deer is a doe. Then possibly a spike and so on... over the years. If I go out with the mindset to take a doe that day, I still get the shakes and the heart pounding. When this feeling stops, I guess I will stop also. 

The bottom line is like the old saying... *"A trophy is in the eyes of the beholder"*. If that deer makes your heart start skipping beats and feel like it's in your throat... It's a trophy, doe, spike whatever!! Trophy management is going to be different for everyone and come at different times through their hunting career. If you are lucky enough to have property like Scott and Mike had, you will have completely different views than the guy that only has public ground to hunt. Scott and Mike now feel this way, now that their lucky to get a single deer into bow rage the entire season.

I bet the 2 guys that stopped in the shop yesterday will have a completely different outlook come December!

Stay safe, Have Fun, hunt hard and if it makes you happy... shoot it. (regardless of what others may think) That's what deer hunting is to me.


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## J1m (Sep 21, 2011)

Wow - nice write up, Arrow!

I will add one thing that I've said to people over the years. Mostly to those that are critical of the deer I shot: Some people are trophy hunters, some people are meat hunters. You decide which one you are when the only deer you've seen all year walks under your stand. :biggrin:


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## Biker Dude (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm a meat hunter but I won't take a dog sized deer regardless of whether I've seen any other deer yet. I used to gun hunt but now that I have started bow hunting I have kind of gotten away from gun hunting. It's actually enjoyable to sit in the woods during bow season instead of freezing my rear end off during gun season. Enjoying the woods is a big part of hunting for me.


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## tree md (Sep 22, 2011)

Great post!

I have noticed the same thing about peoples attitudes with all the hunting shows and emphasis on trophy management. Don't get me wrong. QDM is a good thing IMO and I hunt a lease that is managed for trophies. My goal is to kill a 3.5 year old buck and for the past 3 years I have been able to accomplish that. I got a little grief from one of the lease members last year when I brought in a buck that wasn't quite the biggest but he still ended up aging 3.5. Funny thing is, the guy who gave me the grief has never killed a deer with his bow. I have not gun hunted in many years and bowhunt exclusively. This buck happened to be the first one that I killed from the ground with a bow (out of my ground blind). It was a true trophy to me. Kind of funny, I did a really risky tree yesterday and it had my heart beating so hard that I felt like I was about to pass out... I get that same feeling when I take a deer with my bow. 

Anyway, I do think that TV put a lot of unrealistic thoughts in young and new hunter's heads and I agree that the trophy is in the eyes of the beholder. Hell, I've never even seen a 175" deer in my life in the real world.


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## mitch95100 (Sep 22, 2011)

AWSOME POST ARROW!!
Now heres my part in this thread. On this AS account in my sig it will tell how many saws i have and I do own those saws im addicted to it and have tremendous respect for saws and the guns and bow i hunt with. I may only be 16 but deer hunting is a passion to me ever since my old man has taken me into the woods for the first time. Its in my blood. I truthfully agree 110% with Arrow and what he has to say about what Tv has protrayed this hobby to be. It has gotten to be where you turn on the tv watch a guy with a 10,000 dollar gun with thousands of dollars if gear and he gets a massive frickin deer that looks like its been feed corn and steroids ever since it was born. And then to add to it these guys think hell ive played Cabelas Most Dangerous Hunts I can do what he does and get that 20 pointer. Now my first deer was a decent size DOEand i was just frickin tickeled pink to get to squeeze on that deer and hit it with a 20ga at 89 yards. That in my opinion will be the best trophy ive ever hunted! Another thing is you dont just go out into the woods for 15 minutes and shoot that 20 pointer and be done for the rest of the day. My father and i walked 22 miles last year in sub zero temps and by god did i suffer but was STILL FUN. Hunting second season shotgun and late muzzeloader i agree that the deer are more and more pressured the later it gets. We hunt in this family for a reason and thats not to kill a living anmial to hang on the wall it to put food on the table If i were to shoot a trophy size deer i will hang it on the wall but for the most part its for going out doing something you love and having fun and being safe. Im all winded out now probably didnt make a bit of sense bbut theirs still round bales to hauled in so i better get my ass in gear


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## alleyyooper (Sep 23, 2011)

What ever it takes to harvest the deer you want legal.
Not the big bow hunter now that I once was. But I still hunt with rifle, muzzle loader and shot gun. I my self am the big meat eater in the house with the kids being growen and gone. I hold out for a nice buck but do not frown on the guy next door who shoots from 7 to 10 does a year. He has growing kids two of them boys and I know from experince that boys tend to be hungry all the time. If he didn't shoot those does there would probably be more deer car accidents on our road and there are plenty each year now.

In 2003 I shot a farily nice buck with the rifle my dad gave me just before he passed away. I wrote a story about it that was published in the Dec 2004 Michigan Out doors magazine. Then last fall I shot what I consider a nice buck with a shot gun my wife bought me for our 25 Annaversy, the first since 2003.







Any thing they do As long as they do it legal I'm happy.

 Al


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## outdoorlivin247 (Sep 23, 2011)

MONEY...$$$$$$$$$$......That is what makes a GOOD deer hunter...


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## outdoorlivin247 (Sep 23, 2011)

I am in the same boat as Ed....It does nothing but piss me off that I had more places to hunt growing up than I had time to hunt...Most places were pressured, but being small wood lots I would always see nice deer...

Since the wonderful world of TV has turned the WHITETAIL DEER into a prize fit for a KING, my spots have dwindled to a Lease with 5 other guys...Yes, I said I PAY to hunt deer...The spot we hunt is great ground, but 6 guys on less than 100 acres of actual woods means PRESSURE....

We always shoot a couple of nice bucks a year between our ground and the neighbors, but nothing like could be shot if the property was hunted properly...We do our best to only shoot mature animals be it bucks or does, but every hunt is different...I shot a mid 120 class 8 pointer with my bow last year that I normally would not have shot...The fact that my 6 year old was sitting right beside me made that choice EASY...

Here is a link to the thread I started last year with pictures...

http://www.arboristsite.com/great-outdoors/160962.htm


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## bowtechmadman (Sep 23, 2011)

Great thread. I agree much of the time the land you hunt means a great deal more than how good of hunter you are. I'm a much better hunter in southern Michigan than I am at my own place in northern michigan.
Yooper I have read that article!!!!


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## alleyyooper (Sep 24, 2011)

The 2003 buck was shot at our deer camp on Big Bay DeNoc. The 2010 buck was shot right here at home on my itty bitty 7 acres of wood lot. My first southeren Michigan buck ever.
for years I hunted 10 miles north of Evart east of Leroy.

 Al


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## little possum (Sep 30, 2011)

Yuck. Horn hunters. Ive only shot 2 deer since 2001. First one was a 7point with a 16 1/2" spread. Not a good starter, because I thought it was gonna be like that all the time  Next was a doe, kept the freezer full for a while.
Now a friend brings us a deer or 2 a year. I may get back to deer hunting a little bit this year. 

I cant stand to hear guys whine about no deer around here, when they tagged out in the same stands the year before that. 

I get the same adrenaline rush from just seeing a yearling walk out of the woods, as if it were a 180 class deer (never seen one  ) Like Ed said, if that feelin leaves, Ill quit. Its mostly just the thrill of seeing one that keeps me going back. A accomplishment to be in the right spot, at the right time, and not get the stomp and blow


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## mitch95100 (Oct 10, 2011)

Its not about being a HUNTER its about being an OUTDOORSMAN:msp_thumbup:


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## mitch95100 (Oct 10, 2011)

alleyyooper said:


> What ever it takes to harvest the deer you want legal.
> Not the big bow hunter now that I once was. But I still hunt with rifle, muzzle loader and shot gun. I my self am the big meat eater in the house with the kids being growen and gone. I hold out for a nice buck but do not frown on the guy next door who shoots from 7 to 10 does a year. He has growing kids two of them boys and I know from experince that boys tend to be hungry all the time. If he didn't shoot those does there would probably be more deer car accidents on our road and there are plenty each year now.
> 
> In 2003 I shot a farily nice buck with the rifle my dad gave me just before he passed away. I wrote a story about it that was published in the Dec 2004 Michigan Out doors magazine. Then last fall I shot what I consider a nice buck with a shot gun my wife bought me for our 25 Annaversy, the first since 2003.
> ...


 
That looks like a Remington 870??


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## outdoorlivin247 (Oct 29, 2011)

outdoorlivin247 said:


> MONEY...$$$$$$$$$$......That is what makes a GOOD deer hunter...


 
It still kinda comes back to MONEY........But I guess I will add TIME to it....I picked up a very nice little property that should produce nice deer, just have not had time to hunt it...

If I had all the money in the world to NOT work I could have easily killed many deer this year...But the HEAT and TIME it takes to properly take care of a harvested deer just have not worked out for me...

I am still confident I WILL take a nice buck this year, but wish I had enough money to say #### my job and just go hunting...


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## outdoorlivin247 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hopefully I can connect with this guy...Finally got a picture of him on the trail camera...Also a very nice WIDE 8 point running around...No picture of him yet...


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## little possum (Oct 29, 2011)

Sean, you wouldnt shoot that baby would you?  Good luck!!

Had a doe, and 3 yearlings gettin a drink of water outta the back yard yesterday. I just enjoy watching them. Farmer down the road doesnt enjoy them clearing out the 5 acres of beans every year


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## outdoorlivin247 (Oct 29, 2011)

I might even put a little effort into gun hunting this year if I can't stick one of the two I have been watching/hunting...:msp_thumbup:

Would much rather get them with my bow...


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## alleyyooper (Oct 30, 2011)

Yes It is a 870 Remington My wife bought me for our 25th summer of 2010. 
Once one has a place to hunt, clothing to stay warm and safe, and a medhod to harvest a deer bow, cross bow, shot gun, rifle or muzzle loader I don't think it takes much in the way of money. 

I don't see a needed for all the crap they try to tell us we need in the Mags.
When I was a kid (15)I shot my first buck with a old single shot 410 with slugs. A pair of blue jeans leather boots and a red sweat shirt to be color legal at that time. If you sat for over 10 minutes some one would have to come and pry you up and get you some place to thaw out, since you had froze on the spot. 
Today here in this area of Michigan it is nealy impossiable to do any type of still hunting as the neighbours would get riled over your tresspassing. In the UPPER we still do it some. Start out from the cabin and end up down the road a mile or so by night fall.

I to even today get a huge lump when I see a deer in my yard despit it being a daily thing.

Just yesterday I was sitting on the couch letting my lunch settle some befroe going to the woods again. Kare says from the kitchen a doe is wanting to come in on the screened porch. I look and sure enough there she was eatting from the flower bed out side the door.





















 Al


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## Arrowhead (Oct 30, 2011)

It almost looks like it's trying to grow a G5 on the right beam. I'd let it pass, next year it may be an 11 or 12...... :jester: :spam:

If that's the deer you told me about on the phone, you definitely underestimated it. I'd say pushing 180. 

I hope you can put your tag on that monster.


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## outdoorlivin247 (Oct 30, 2011)

Arrowhead said:


> It almost looks like it's trying to grow a G5 on the right beam. I'd let it pass, next year it may be an 11 or 12...... :jester: :spam:
> 
> If that's the deer you told me about on the phone, you definitely underestimated it. I'd say pushing 180.
> 
> I hope you can put your tag on that monster.


 
Yep, that is him... Now you know why I would have been making a trip to your shop if I could have got an arrow in him... Just to think I had him at less than 10 yards on the ground and could not get a good shot..


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