# Meeting a forester/logger tomorrow - what should I ask him?



## Jim Timber (Aug 21, 2012)

I've got 84 acres of hardwood 40yr old second generation regrowth. I need a management plan so I can get the 2c tax deduction, but I also want to take my aspen to the ground.

The stand was managed for big tooth and quaking aspen, but also has significant bur and red oak, silver and red maple, basswood, birch, and the rest is elm, sumac, and hop hornbeam (ironwood).

My goal is to open it up and still have areas which remain in their current state. "Park like" would be how I'd describe it, but I'm going for a thicker savanna that I'll have my house in, and then I'll let the forest regrow for most of it.

For the plan, I know I should have everything written out, and diagramed for the forester. But for the walk through bid process - what questions should I be asking?

He's already told me they chip the slash, and take standing and deadfall trees, but leave standing snags. We didn't cover stump removal, but I do want some areas cleaned up and smoothed out. They seed alsike clover on landings and skidder trails at no charge (not saying much - the seed is cheap) - I wonder if that's really just a way to hide the surface? I know it helps prevent erosion.

Lastly, how's the market looking for this winter? While I'd like to get a pole barn built with the proceeds, I don't need to sell.


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## SliverPicker (Aug 21, 2012)

"Park-like" likely won't be the healthiest condition to leave your woods in. The forester will have some great ideas that work well in you area. Post some feedback on your meeting if you don't mind.


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## slowp (Aug 21, 2012)

Coffee? :msp_smile:


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## redprospector (Aug 22, 2012)

May not be something you'll want to ask at your meeting, but I have asked; What tha heck are you thinking? 

Andy


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## madhatte (Aug 22, 2012)

Only approach a Forester from directly in front. Hold out both hands to assure your good intentions. Avoid bright colors.


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## Jim Timber (Aug 22, 2012)

My north 40 is rolling hills with 4 draws cutting through the parcel as the land slopes toward the lake. There's 100' of elevation change, but it's pretty lumpy with good slopes and character. My southern 40 is damn near flat, with a 25' elevation change over the 1320' width.

My "park like" area will center over a couple of the draws where my house and out buildings will eventually go.

There's also a couple acres I'll have clear cut on the north border, as that hill top is on a peninsula of high ground - future apple orchard. I already have the perimeter marked.

I clear cut a 1/4 acre this spring to make the wife a garden, and that's coming back strong despite the deer browsing. Since I knew it wouldn't be tillable this year, I didn't treat the stumps.

Lastly, I want a 50ish foot wide shooting range cut N/S along my east border. I've already started cutting lots of the trees over there to make a barricade to keep people out. They can dump tops on it as well - the "shrub henge" as I call it, is a two fold solution to my poaching "line hunting" neighbor problem. It also provides much needed habitat for bunnies and fox. Keeping the deer safe on my side is a bonus. I shoot far less of them than they do (brown is down!).

The east border only has 10' of elevation change for the whole 1/2 mile. I'm going for 800yds usable shooting if I can pull it off. I also figure we can work that strip into the decks and cutting paths pretty easily.

I've been thinking up my layout for over a year. My neighbor is also a forester, but not currently licenced to write plans. I had him out earlier this spring before leaf-out to bounce ideas off of, and his only concern was that I'm on the fringe of bumping into primarily saw logs from bolts, and said I should wait another 5 years. Meanwhile, I want my house done within that 5 years, and we're starting to see top breakage in the aspen from moderate winds. I don't want to risk my profits trying to increase them, so I'm ready to cut.


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## Jim Timber (Aug 22, 2012)

The guy cancelled on me. He forgot about another meeting he had scheduled today.


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## slowp (Aug 22, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> The guy cancelled on me. He forgot about another meeting he had scheduled today.



Foresters are shy creatures. You must have done something to scare him off. Quietly lure him back using coffee and cookies for bait. 

Wear camo. Make sure it is correct for your location. Foresters know the vegetation patterns quite well and can detect bad camo from many feet away. Do not make sudden moves or the forester may drive away.


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## SliverPicker (Aug 22, 2012)

I agree. Slow deliberate movements only. One sudden gesture and he'll be outta there!


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## ShaneLogs (Aug 22, 2012)

Don't touch his saw either.


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## Jim Timber (Aug 22, 2012)

We're going to set something up for 10 days from now. I'll have to be at the lake for FIL care taking duties then anyway.

Something occurred to me this morning - since this guy does logging, isn't it a conflict of interest to have him running my timber sale? I want competitive bids. Seems like I'd be buying a house through the sellers agent.


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## ChrisIsThis (Aug 22, 2012)

Something occurred to me this morning - since this guy does logging, isn't it a conflict of interest to have him running my timber sale? I want competitive bids. Seems like I'd be buying a house through the sellers agent.[/QUOTE]

It is possible that he cuts the logs and then sells them "roadside" through a competitive bidding process. You would be paying him (or his crew) a fixed rate to cut/yard the logs. I think this is a more common practice in "the north".

Always keep a Snickers and a Coke handy to calm a spooked forester too.


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## Gologit (Aug 22, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> We're going to set something up for 10 days from now. I'll have to be at the lake for FIL care taking duties then anyway.
> 
> Something occurred to me this morning - since this guy does logging, isn't it a conflict of interest to have him running my timber sale? I want competitive bids. Seems like I'd be buying a house through the sellers agent.



I wonder about that too. I don't know if it's a direct conflict of interest but it certainly narrows down your choices. Usually an independent consulting forester has no real financial stake in the operation. He's hired to give you advice and opinions.

I don't know if the logger acting as your forester is really a good idea. I'd think it would be hard for him to be objective when he has a business interest in your operation. 

This might be a good time to contact your state forestry department and try to line up an independent forester to give you a second opinion. 

Let us know what happens.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 2, 2012)

He called me again thurs, but I haven't gotten back to him. I think I'll take him up on his free quote just to see where he's at money wise, and keep that in mind as I proceed. My neighbor doesn't think my trees are quite there yet (he's looking at max value), but I want to move forward on projects.

Something that unsettled me in our previous dealings was his insistence on driving his atv. I don't drive my land this close to archery opener, I'm not letting him!


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## redprospector (Sep 2, 2012)

Hmm. All this talk about wearing camo and moving slowly to keep from spooking one of these elusive creatures. Now the mention of archery season opening.... No wonder the guy's not showing up. 

Andy


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## hammerlogging (Sep 2, 2012)

redprospector said:


> Hmm. All this talk about wearing camo and moving slowly to keep from spooking one of these elusive creatures. Now the mention of archery season opening.... No wonder the guy's not showing up.
> 
> Andy



yup- in the south it seems like every crew takes a week off at thanksgiving for rifle season. cause nobody's gonna show anyhow.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 3, 2012)

Met with him today. Turns out, he's got 6 loggers he subcontracts with, so there's no conflict of interest.

Due to the wind damage this spring, there's a glut of wood on the market, so I'm going to wait to do a sale.


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## jay_d (Sep 5, 2012)

i think you have unrealistic expectations on what a "logging job" really is. be prepared to be sorely disappointed when you do get it cut, b/c landscapers make state parks look like that, loggers get the wood and it makes a mess, then we do just enough to keep the land owner from bad mouthing us.

when a timber dealer buys your wood, he buys your stems, not the stumps, and not the limbs, and not the leaves, and not the vines. make sure you have a diameter size and a length set up in your contract to what has to be picked up
ie all trees measuring 4 inches in butt diameter, and 12 foot in length with a 2 inch crown, must be considered merchantable, and treated as such. 


if its not in the contract then he doesnt have to do ANYTHING, if it slips by in the fine print that you authorize a clear cut, then by law he can clear cut your property. etc etc. read the contract and have it amended as you see fit.

finally make him give full disclosure on what the going rates at the mill are vs what your being paid. if you've ever heard of logging on the half, forget all about it, that is a thing of the past.



crown means tree top


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## Jim Timber (Sep 6, 2012)

My expectations are pretty reasonable: I don't expect the place to be manicured turf with fareway quality puttable grass when they're done. I'm stating my goal is to eventually end up with a park like area - it's going to take years!

I didn't think he's on board with my goals, and I'm pretty sure once my management plan is complete we won't be doing more business. He sees 2 tracks wide access paths as low disturbance - I want some areas cut with a chainsaw, so I keep the stems that aren't mature. He wants a fellerbuncher to cut it all and chip the slash.

Actually, right now he'd chip everything and buy it at $20/cord. No effen way!

I think I'm going to buy a tractor, make a grapple and start logging it myself.


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## slowp (Sep 6, 2012)

A two track road (I'm assuming you mean one tire each track) IS low disturbance in the real world. Sounds like he is being honest with you. He has to have room to get equipment in there. And, this may be hard to realize, a feller buncher or processor can get limb locked trees out with less or the same disturbance as a guy with a chainsaw. Even the best faller in the world cannot always get limb locked trees on the ground in a tight spacing. That means a skidder has to come in and finish the job if he can't get another tree to knock the hangup onto the ground. 

 There are good operators, and there are bad. It sounds like you have too high of expectations to have a logger come in and make money. Remember, everybody has to make a living. If you want to hand fall, and then snake the logs through some tight spaces, that's going to take extra time, and that's going to add costs. 

Logs like to travel in straight lines. Otherwise, you better plan on having rub trees. One suggestion I'd make is to work in clumps. Take a small clump of trees out, and leave a clump untouched. You'll still need access to the area by trucks and equipment. 

Gawd, this is hard to get across on a computer forum. Maybe you should do it yourself and learn what it takes to get a tree out of the woods. I'm not being snarky, because I went through this phase. I think most people do. If you haven't been around logging much, you can't know what it takes, what type of skid trails are needed, and how much ground disturbance there is. 

Are there any horse loggers in your area?

I have a friend who had some bad experiences with logging on the family property. I suggested a logger for her to hire, and suggested she go out and see what he'd done and maybe even watch a while, after getting his OK. She did. She hired him and it worked out very well. Maybe you could do the same?


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## floyd (Sep 6, 2012)

These folks are blowing smoke up your ...

Tell the forester what you want. IF he is a smart logger he can do what you want. 

The forester in him may change your perspective a little.

For example, Aspen stands are 1 tree. Just alot of suckers. So maybe leave the aspen in groves. Or clearcut it.




There are more loggers here than foresters.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 6, 2012)

I want the aspen gone - all of it. So regen isn't even a concern. In removing it (30% of my trees), I don't want more wood taken out just to get the aspen. I have oak and maple trying to come up, and with our local papermill burnt down, and closed forever, there's no point in a 50yr growth tree. I'll be dead, or close to it by then.

Horse logging would be ideal, and there are loggers here - they do sensitive areas like parks. Getting people like that is what I wanted out of a forester.

This guy buys the stand, then subcontracts the work. I want a shooting range down one side of my property (the long side, and almost perfectly level high ground), and other clear cut pockets (3-6 acres each), so getting wood out isn't the problem. The problem is he has profit in mind and I give a %$#& about what it looks like when they leave. I'll be choosing where the skid trails go. There's also areas which still have them from the cut done in the 70's.


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## Gologit (Sep 6, 2012)

You're learning.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 6, 2012)

My next task is to find some Amish to sell my basswood to.


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## OlympicYJ (Sep 6, 2012)

Slowp brought up a couple very good points. 

1. Do you mean 2, two tracks or put a different way 2 skid trails? And do you mean 2 right next to each other or two separate skid trails at different locations on the property?

2. A feller buncher is safer for hang ups and can potentially cause less disturbance as slowp explained. It sounds like you're wanting to do what are called patch cuts. These are effectively miniature clearcuts. He will be super efficient with a buncher and it will save you money. I don't understand what your concerns are with his plan. He's going to have skid trails to these patches. Along these trails you are going to have trees get rubbed if the trail is narrow. Besides rub trees are designated trees that you rub up against and try and pick in strategic spots to minimise rubbing more trees. Also your statement that you want some areas cut with a chainsaw as opposed to a buncher so the immature stems are retained what is your reasoning? A buncher can accomplish this as well if not better than a hand faller. He can pick the stem up and put it in one pile reducing damage to the smaller stems. If a hand falller is cutting you are going to have those smaller stems busted up from the felled trees where each one falls.

Maybe if you could answer the question about what 2 tracks mean and also clarify what you have issue with that the forester is telling you. All I got was he wants to use a buncher and doesn't give a hoot about what it looks like when he's done. That is neither descriptive or informative to those trying to help; and any advice given isn't worth much because we don't have a clear Idea of the advice given and your expectations. 

Best of luck,

Wes


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## northmanlogging (Sep 6, 2012)

Have admit as much as i dislike automation and big machines taking out old hand logging jobs... the feller bunchers are very easy on the land, the guys running em are usually very talented and gentle, they can stack up tops etc and drive over them instead of making ruts in your dirt, they can pile big stacks of logs in one spot the skidder guys can just drive up to instead of hunting for a few sticks joe bob fell over on the other side of that big snag...which big snag? And who the Hel is joe bob? And when all is ready the skidder just picks up the trail of tops that they made a "road" out of on the way out and you never new there was trees in there. Hand falling and hand bucking, you can count on the tops and branches staying right where they landed the first time. and lots and lots of deep nasty ruts where the skidder went through, Maybe they will be nice and fill em in maybe not, but then I'm a pessimist and kind of a jerk so...


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## sinawali (Sep 7, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> 2. A feller buncher is safer for hang ups and can potentially cause less disturbance as slowp explained. [...]He can pick the stem up and put it in one pile reducing damage to the smaller stems. If a hand falller is cutting you are going to have those smaller stems busted up from the felled trees where each one falls.



That's not the truth, machine logging causes damages on up to 45% of the leftover trees. And the fellerbuncher have to drive directly to the trees, which cause more soil damages than a harvester with a crane. A good logger with a chainsaw knows the best directions to prevent damages as much as possible. 
Horselogging btw cause only 10-15% damages.


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## floyd (Sep 7, 2012)

It is operator error that causes damage to the residual stand.


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## slowp (Sep 7, 2012)

sinawali said:


> That's not the truth, machine logging causes damages on up to 45% of the leftover trees. And the fellerbuncher have to drive directly to the trees, which cause more soil damages than a harvester with a crane. A good logger with a chainsaw knows the best directions to prevent damages as much as possible.
> Horselogging btw cause only 10-15% damages.



It depends. Like always, on the operator and the tree spacing. The buncher operators here are very good IF you allow spacing for them to get around. They only make one trip through the woods--and do put tops down where we have a concern about soil compaction. They can run the machine on the slash. I seldom have seen any more damage from a machine when compared to hand falling. I have seen a lot of damage from careless skidding of whole trees. You can't beat mechanized when it comes to thinning in a limb locked stand. 

And no, a buncher doesn't drive up to each tree. He can reach a bit. That's why they have those big arms on the machine. Have you watched one operate? 

Where did you get your 45% figure? The only time I've seen that much damage in a mechanized unit was in Wisconsin where the guys were learning how to use the machine. It is the job of a forester to stop operations when damage gets out of hand, and have a _Come To Jesus _talk with the siderod, and give a strong stinkeye to the crew. Most of the operators out here who survived all the cutbacks now take pride in their work. 

I'll also point out the secret of the planning forester. The tree tops do not stay in place on the skid trails unless you have a forwarder running on it. The trees dragging behind the skidder will sweep the brush off the trails, but we don't let the 'ologists know that.


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## sinawali (Sep 7, 2012)

slowp said:


> It depends. Like always, on the operator and the tree spacing. The buncher operators here are very good IF you allow spacing for them to get around.


Needs time. I don't know how the loggers in USA are paid, but in my country its mostly for m³, which mean time pressure. A hand feller can go around a tree in one second, but a machine need more time and space. Time pressure is the worst enemy in the forests, in my opinion. 



> I seldom have seen any more damage from a machine when compared to hand falling. I have seen a lot of damage from careless skidding of whole trees. You can't beat mechanized when it comes to thinning in a limb locked stand.


I agree, skidding cause most of the damage, because that, it is better to use horses if there is enough money. In young stands, maybe a spruce plantation, I prefer mechanized thinning too, because that is an ugly work for handfellers, it is very harmful to their health and the payment is too bad for it. 



> And no, a buncher doesn't drive up to each tree. He can reach a bit. That's why they have those big arms on the machine. Have you watched one operate?


The bunchers i know don't reach the length, but I don't know much of them, in Germany there are more harvester for logging. 



> Where did you get your 45% figure?


Statistics from my forest studies. I have seen such damages in real, too. There are good companies, but a lot of bad ones too. If i would have a forest, i would never allow logging with a machine. The soil compaction can cause damages in the future, if the roots can't develope properly. There is a higher chance for bark beetles, too. A lot of experienced foresters told me so too.


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## OlympicYJ (Sep 7, 2012)

Slowp covered it all.

I will emphasize that loggers here in the US and especially the PNW are very production oriented. And bunchers are way faster than hand fallers on favorable ground.

Bunchers have a boom and can reach out to trees they dont have to drive to each one. These machines slowp and i are referring to are track machines and are more maneuverable than wheeled. They also cau


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## Jim Timber (Sep 7, 2012)

Ok, now that I'm not typing on my phone - I can expand on some of the issues you guys have.

First: I'm not sure what exactly he meant by the two tracks wide. He had already made up his mind that he wasn't going to be buying the stand for at least another 5 years, so I didn't press the issue. I can sell it all for firewood and make more than he's offering, or I can log it myself and make double that or more by milling it too. It's just a matter of time and cash flow. I'll take my time, and he'll never see any cash. 

I'm putting in a 1/2 mile long clear cut roughly 50' wide along the high ridge of the east side of the lot (north to south). This can be used for skidding, and I'd love it if trees didn't grow there when all was said and done, as that would be less brushmowing for me to maintain the rifle range. That strip is rich in 15+" red and white oak (mostly red), some birch, some basswood, and some maple, as well as the 9-12" aspen I want eradicated. There's good money in those trees that need to come out. The oak are clear 16-20' up and are second generation stump sprouts, so that's some nice straight milling lumber there.

From that main corridor, the land is relatively flat on my southern 40 (30' elevation change over a 1/4 mile), and there's 4 shallow draws (max of 20' deep) on the north 40 which also has some decent hills (100' elevation change, but it's not consistent: meaning I have some decent grade slopes). The goal is to branch west from that corridor, and selectively harvest all the aspen, and some of the cull trees to release my oaks. I also want to add the pockets of clear cuts to use for my house and outbuildings, as well as my orchard, and to plant some plantation red pine. Those pockets can easily be interlinked via trails, and should make the whole project very easy to manage, as you'd have potential landing sites throughout the whole property.

My concern with highly mechanised logging, is that in the areas where I don't want them thinned out, you still need a big enough path for the fellerbuncher to get through - sometimes that's too much. Even so, I wasn't able to get a bid out of him for the areas I want cleared completely, as he didn't seem to think there was enough money in it.

I need a tractor before I can really start moving wood. My atv has plenty of power (50hp), but it's only 1000lbs with me on it, so I have no way to put the power down effectively. I'm hoping with the arch, I'll at least be able to start moving the logs to get them down and drying for future processing. I have a couple ideas for ways to stack the wood to let it season off the ground.


The forester only contracts with people who chip the tops, and he then sells the chips to the power plant 100 miles away in the metro. Is it possible to get a semi trailer myself, chip my slash, and sell it to them directly as a po-dunk operation?

With my aspen, is it possible to get a logging trailer, and do the same with whole logs as long as they've been stored properly? I don't have a CDL, and with my neck issues, I shouldn't get one - but I do know a couple guys who own their own rigs, so I could contract them to haul my trailers.


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## OlympicYJ (Sep 7, 2012)

I wouldnt worry about the corridors. They arent that big. I would use it later as access trails. As for doing it yourself you might have problems with the bigger sawlogs using a tractor but might be worth a shot. For clearing for a house i would get a contractor with an excavator to push em over so the stump removal is easier. Or if you feel you're confident enough rent an excavator big enough to do the clearing and stumping yourself and use it to coldeck the logs and call up a self loader. Then just pile the slash and burn it and plant your garden there. Youll have a great tater crop.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## hammerlogging (Sep 7, 2012)

What you are looking for is not ridiculous, although some of the things, like whole tree chipping yourself, might be a stretch. 

You talked to the wrong guy. 

You live in awesome country and there are surely plenty of part time loggers with cable skdders who know someone with a self loader, the right one of these folks will take care of you. Ask around more, at different places.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 8, 2012)

There's some smaller local mills looking to buy wood - I'll have to talk to them and see what they come back with. One of my neighbors also has a skidder parked in his yard and a big pile of big logs out back looking dark. I should go knock on their door sometime and see what's up with him. He's only about 3 miles away.


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## floyd (Sep 8, 2012)

I agree you talked to the wrong guy. You mentioned his meal ticket..delivering chips to somewhere. That is his priorty.

I would hazzard a guess he put the wrong hat on that AM.

Some state foresters provide services for free. Since your taxes pay them look into that option.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 8, 2012)

DNR charges 13% to manage timber sales. I'm totally ok with paying that, but the guy for my area is hard to access (rarely in the office, doesn't always return calls). He was actually supposed to do my management plan, but couldn't seem to get me scheduled when I'd be there to do the walk through.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 9, 2012)

The local mill/logger is saying 50-100 per cord stumpage for oak (sight unseen). That's less than half on the high side of what the DNR says they're getting at their timber sales.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 9, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> The local mill/logger is saying 50-100 per cord stumpage for oak (sight unseen). That's less than half on the high side of what the DNR says they're getting at their timber sales.



Some folks are buying pulpwood, some are buying sawlogs, and some buy both and sell them according to their highest value. make sense?


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## Jim Timber (Sep 10, 2012)

Yeah, but then he got pissy when I called him out on his rates being too low (even sent him the DNR's price report from 2011 - which my forester said stays pretty consistent year to year), and he shot back "I was quoting sight unseen" blah blah blah... I quoted low on my diameters so there wouldn't be any surprises (still in timber DBH, but I shaved 3-5" off my measured diameters as that's a more "average" size than my largest trees), and he came back with pawnshop prices on high grade wood. Telling me the most you'll pay is half is a good way to get me to shut you out, and then claiming it's because of "quality being selective" - BS!

I'd do better cutting it for firewood than what he offered. When the guy's offering half price at best, there's no point in bringing him out. It was substantially better than the forester was offering, but I don't know if the forester knew that I was clearing so much when he was talking dollars. The initial discussion we had, I was only clearing the aspen, but the truth is that I want a lot more taken out; just in select areas. I'm looking at 20-30ish acres cut to the dirt.


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## OlympicYJ (Sep 10, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> Yeah, but then he got pissy when I called him out on his rates being too low (even sent him the DNR's price report from 2011 - which my forester said stays pretty consistent year to year), and he shot back "I was quoting sight unseen" blah blah blah... I quoted low on my diameters so there wouldn't be any surprises (still in timber DBH, but I shaved 3-5" off my measured diameters as that's a more "average" size than my largest trees), and he came back with pawnshop prices on high grade wood. Telling me the most you'll pay is half is a good way to get me to shut you out, and then claiming it's because of "quality being selective" - BS!
> 
> I'd do better cutting it for firewood than what he offered. When the guy's offering half price at best, there's no point in bringing him out. It was substantially better than the forester was offering, but I don't know if the forester knew that I was clearing so much when he was talking dollars. The initial discussion we had, I was only clearing the aspen, but the truth is that I want a lot more taken out; just in select areas. I'm looking at 20-30ish acres cut to the dirt.



You don't have enough volume to command a high price. A logger supplying large volumes can negotiate his price.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 10, 2012)

That could be it, but this guy is running out of a pole barn with a woodmiser calling himself a mill. I've got 80 acres of aspen I want gone too, it's not just the clear cuts. Surprisingly, he offered the same price as the forester for the aspen, and said there was no market for it.

Once hunting season wraps up for me, I'll try to get the DNR forester who was supposed to do my plan in and see what he says. Looks like I'm on my own for the near future, and that's not entirely a bad thing.

This is along the corridor I want cleared. Trees that have been cut are a boundary to keep trespassing/poaching neighbors out, which also does double duty as small game habitat.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 10, 2012)

Here's a different spot earlier this spring before leaf out.






This is actually the wife's garden, and there's only a few big oaks and aspen remaining inside the tape. It's still got a decent amount of down wood that needs to be hauled off and stacked before the last trees fall.


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## sinawali (Sep 10, 2012)

That's the diameter you want to sell? Not very large.


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