# Breaking in a noob



## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2018)

So.. I never really got taught how to fall timber, picked it up as I went, a little by watching others, and learned a bunch on this site and a few others.

But I do OK and haven't had many real big **** ups, largely from the stand point of not pushing my luck any farther then I have too, and when in doubt put a line in it.

But I got a guy, that is going to be running his own ins, and biz etc that wants to learn timber falling. Not saying I'm the best teacher around, but I am one of the few around here that still hand fall, and probably the only one with the ability to slow down a little and teach.

Anyway, whats some of you more experienced folks thoughts/memories good and bad about breaking in.

I'm not big on hazing, for reasons... but stories is stories.


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## madhatte (Feb 16, 2018)

I know jack about breaking in production fallers but I've sent more than a few fire nerds out into the world with a piece of paper that says they can cut stuff. I'd like to suggest that you get together your ideas of what "the basics" are, and write them down, and follow them as a guideline. This will in no way ensure that you have sent a competent person into the workforce, but it will insulate you from their mistakes as much as possible. The "I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU, DAD" argument holds way more water than it should.


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## bitzer (Feb 16, 2018)

How much experience does the guy have?


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## Bwildered (Feb 16, 2018)

Theres a joke about an old fellow telling someone about his hopeless worker, he said " I can't understand that bloke, I've taught him all I know & he still knows nothing! "
Thanski


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## Gologit (Feb 16, 2018)




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## fool skip (Feb 16, 2018)

Things are so much different now. I put in my time bumping knots and bucking on the landing. From there the company put partnered me up with a Master Faller. He would fall a tree and knock off the butt log and I would limb and buck the rest while he was facing another one. Our scale was usually right there with the other sets who were single jacking. This was in nice timber. When we hit a dog hair patch I would fall and buck my own. I don't know if this is possible any more. There's a book by Doug Dent called "Procedural Timber Falling" that should be required reading. If he has good sense, some coordination and listening ability, he should pick it up. Teach him to read his stumps and always strive to improve. I still do this as do most good fallers. If he has trouble reading bind on his bucking cuts tell him to cut the bottom out first. If he doesn't cut corners off and keeps his trees in the open he should be all right. In my day you earned your right to fall timber usually by putting in your time logging. Best of luck.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2018)

bitzer said:


> How much experience does the guy have?



15yrs as a saw wrench at ye ole local saw shop/rental yard, and a bunch of firewood experience, mostly he's focused on running equipment, but wants to get more confident at falling timber. As his new biz will have some of that involved.

Had him out last Friday for some pull work, and hid did pretty good as far as ground work with his saw, and knows how to listen, even if it takes 4-5 tries...


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## RandyMac (Feb 16, 2018)

I was very fortunate, I worked with old men.


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## bitzer (Feb 16, 2018)

I think some guys get it and some don't. Some like the idea and some don't really have to think about it much. It reminds of a line in Jeremiah Johnson - white man he likes tracking. Indian figures it's just natural.


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Had him out last Friday for some pull work, and hid did pretty good as far as ground work with his saw, and knows how to listen, even if it takes 4-5 tries...



It sounds like he has the right attitude. If he _wants_ to learn and if he'll _listen_ when you tell him something the rest is just technique. You know enough to teach him that.
It's a big responsibility. He'll be watching you like a hawk and absorbing not just what you tell him but what you yourself do.
You're right about hazing - it's counter productive when a guy is trying to learn something new. You can pick at him a little _after _he's been around awhile though.
I started out working summers packing for my uncle when I was fourteen. He'd been hurt when a log rolled on him. He could still run saw but he couldn't pack. We were cutting old growth Redwood and using handle bar Macs and 125s.
The only saws I touched the first year were ones I was fueling or carrying. When we had a bar with a stinger on it I got the dumb end. The second year I started bucking on easy lays, working up to harder stuff and under close supervision as the season went on. The next year I started falling, mostly the easy stuff on long ground. My uncle was there for every tree and he wasn't shy about giving advice. Some of the advice was very loud and to the point. I was a slow learner but I wanted to fall and he made sure I knew what I was doing. He kept the standards up and expected more from me as time went on.
By the end of the season I was doing most of the falling and things just went on from there. I didn't really appreciate a lot of what he taught me until I went out on my own and had to do my own thinking. He fell timber like a pool shark plays nine ball...always thinking a couple of moves ahead, always planning, always thinking about what to do if things went haywire. Saving out timber was like a religion to him.


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2018)

RandyMac said:


> I was very fortunate, I worked with old men.




Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 17, 2018)

Gologit said:


> It sounds like he has the right attitude. If he _wants_ to learn and if he'll _listen_ when you tell him something the rest is just technique. You know enough to teach him that.
> It's a big responsibility. He'll be watching you like a hawk and absorbing not just what you tell him but what you yourself do.
> You're right about hazing - it's counter productive when a guy is trying to learn something new. You can pick at him a little _after _he's been around awhile though.
> I started out working summers packing for my uncle when I was fourteen. He'd been hurt when a log rolled on him. He could still run saw but he couldn't pack. We were cutting old growth Redwood and using handle bar Macs and 125s.
> ...



No pressure or anything...

One of my biggest issues with training folks in a machine shop, is I would assume that they had at least some clue of where to start, but sadly most couldn't grasp simple concepts like tightening bolts... so i would tell em where I was at and what I needed done and bounce, come in the next day to a molten mess and a pile of red tags.

So start over I would... until they quit or got fired


This is different, cause dude is coming in with the stand point of "I know nothing and I'm a little scared" so its step by step we go.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 17, 2018)

Gologit said:


> Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.



Wait... you sayin I'm old?


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## RandyMac (Feb 17, 2018)

Gologit said:


> Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.



Really ancient old guys, in their 50s and 60s.


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Wait... you sayin I'm old?



Not compared to a Redwood tree, no.


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2018)

RandyMac said:


> Really ancient old guys, in their 50s and 60s.



Yup. What those guys didn't know wasn't worth knowing. My Grandfather's first job in the woods was putting tallow on the skid road logs so the oxen could pull easier.
After that he and his brother went to falling with axes and misery whips. He could always find a job because he could chop the face right or left handed. A lot of guys couldn't do that.


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## 2dogs (Feb 17, 2018)

I hope you guys get a chance to meet Gologit and have him tell you about how he apprenticed . This was after the whole Red Sea thing and tree were plentiful and Bob said Moses was a great teacher. Of course oxen were the only skidders available but acacia trees are fairly small. Bob was one of the first fallers to modify their jawbone saw by adapting bear teeth to replace the ass'. (Don't ask about that calf incident!)


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## chucker (Feb 17, 2018)

Gologit said:


> Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.


and looked like they were 70!!!


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## chucker (Feb 17, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> No pressure or anything...
> 
> One of my biggest issues with training folks in a machine shop, is I would assume that they had at least some clue of where to start, but sadly most couldn't grasp simple concepts like tightening bolts... so i would tell em where I was at and what I needed done and bounce, come in the next day to a molten mess and a pile of red tags.
> 
> ...


he's honest so that means more then "yupp ---- I did that on my last job" !!


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2018)

2dogs said:


> I hope you guys get a chance to meet Gologit and have him tell you about how he apprenticed . This was after the whole Red Sea thing and tree were plentiful and Bob said Moses was a great teacher. Of course oxen were the only skidders available but acacia trees are fairly small. Bob was one of the first fallers to modify their jawbone saw by adapting bear teeth to replace the ass'. (Don't ask about that calf incident!)



Uh huh...says the guy who's 60 how many years old now? 

Besides, Noah needed timber for his ark and you kids weren't getting enough wood on the ground to build a canoe so us older guys had to step up and show you how it's done.


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## 2dogs (Feb 17, 2018)

Of course Northy learned from Uncle Smokey. Smokey has always been more of a shovel guy, he was on an inmate crew early on but received a full pardon from FDR. BTW when Smokey moved to lead saw he used an IEL. Anyway he was a great teacher too but he would not wear a tin hat so he failed his safety evals. 

And now Northman is training a new sawyer. Everything should go well if his guy can understand Northy's growling style and doesn't try to steal his picnic basket lunch.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 18, 2018)

Ok ah boo boo!

you ah keep ya hands outta my pic-a-nic basket


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## northmanlogging (Feb 19, 2018)

Went purdy ok today.

Slammed a few trees, shoved a few with the essavator, probably better then a load for me to skid in the morning. 

Nothing major broke, no significant breakage. I did trip and eat dirt hard right in front of the guy so that was fun... He missed the second face plant though... Purdy sure he fell way more then I did though.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Feb 23, 2018)

Lots of good wisdom for a noob in the PDF i attached, Northman. Might be useful for your noob


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## Odog (Feb 24, 2018)

I know I'm in a different line of work, but I've figured out that the guys who end up working out are the ones who know little to nothing when they start. They tend to listen better, and have less learned bad habits to break. Another point if they're willing to try on their own and don't have to be told to wipe their own butt.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 10, 2018)

bitzer said:


> I think some guys get it and some don't. Some like the idea and some don't really have to think about it much. It reminds of a line in Jeremiah Johnson - white man he likes tracking. Indian figures it's just natural.


 .... I love the line out of the Moby **** movie too when the Captain said to the first mate " I was just born into it, you... were born to do it." such a cliche though. Its really like having a champion wrestler competing in MMA with all the natural instincts. it's ONLY a great base. (No pun) A great advantage but a long road lay ahead. One of my favourite quotes which never leaves my mind is "Nature cannot be tricked or cheated, she will give up to you the object of your struggles only when you have paid her price. ~Napoleon Hill. Very seldom historic people that achieved greatness, were even the pick to excel between their siblings. The difference was work ethics. (more hours) Einstein was considered a daydreamer as well one with dyslexia. Daydreaming is a great way to work thing out. Scotty Pippin went to a small college without a scholarship. He was the equipment manager. He ended up with 4 NBA rings and 2 gold medals and the best 'all-around' player of his time. IMO. On the other side of the coin, teammate M Jordon wanted to play pro baseball but was stuck with the farm team. He paid the price of a new team bus but he didn't pay nature's price. Some things money, talent and physical attributes just can't ever buy. ACDC said it best. "Its a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll"


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## Bwildered (Apr 10, 2018)

Westboastfaller said:


> .... I love the line out of the Moby **** movie too when the Captain said to the first mate " I was just born into it, you... were born to do it." such a cliche though. Its really like having a champion wrestler competing in MMA with all the natural instincts. it's ONLY a great base. (No pun) A great advantage but a long road lay ahead. One of my favorite quotes which never leaves my mind is "Nature cannot be tricked or cheated, she will give up to you the object of your struggles only when you have paid her price. ~Napoleon Hill. Very seldom historic people that achieved greatness, were even the pick to excel between their siblings. The difference was work ethics. (more hours) Einstein was considered a daydreamer as well one with dyslexia. Daydreaming is a great way to work thing out. Scotty Pippin went to a small college without a scholarship. He was the equipment manager. He ended up with 4 NBA rings and 2 gold medals and the best 'all-around' player of his time. imo. On the other side of the coin, teammate M Jordon wanted to play pro baseball but was stuck with the farm team. He paid for the Price of a new team bus but he didn't pay nature's price. Some things money and talent just can't ever buy. ACDC said it best. "Its a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll"


Or " it's a long way to the shop, if you want a sausage roll"


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## Porosonik (May 14, 2018)

As a noob I did my “apprenticeship” in the redwood patch of North West California in the early 1970s. Growing up in a time and place completely dominated by logging didn’t hurt, but my greatest advantage was getting to work with the last of the old ‘40s and ‘50s loggers. They managed (and I’m not sure how) to teach my young, ignorant self enough to survive until I could retire, and I will be forever greatful for that. The degree in “Manual Technology” I received from the University of Pickett and Johnson Logging is still paying dividends.

Porosonik.


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## fool skip (May 14, 2018)

"The harder I work, the luckier I seem to get." Gary Player


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## RandyMac (May 15, 2018)

Porosonik, I did the same thing.


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## rwoods (May 15, 2018)

You two were blessed. No one will see those days again except in pictures. Ron


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## RandyMac (May 15, 2018)

Yes we were Ron.


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## Gologit (May 15, 2018)

rwoods said:


> You two were blessed. No one will see those days again except in pictures. Ron



Yup. It was the best way to learn. Nobody gets a chance like that anymore. 
Nobody tried to salve your feelings. There wasn't time for that.
The lessons were blunt, to the point, and you used what they taught you every day.
I was lucky to start out the way I did.


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## 2dogs (May 15, 2018)

fool skip said:


> "The harder I work, the luckier I seem to get." Gary Player


That saying has been around for centuries before Gary Player was born. In fact I think he attributed it to someone else. The Boy Scouts printed it in Boy's Life in 1922. None the less they are words to live by.


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## madhatte (May 15, 2018)

Don't know that I tip my hat often enough to you guys with way more experience than me, from whom I continually learn. Mad respect, and thank you all for sharing.


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## RandyMac (May 16, 2018)

eat yer onions.


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## madhatte (May 16, 2018)

why I oughta


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## RandyMac (May 16, 2018)

You should


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## northmanlogging (May 16, 2018)




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## madhatte (May 16, 2018)

(probably won't)


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## young bucker (Sep 18, 2018)

when i broke in it was packing jacks and gas while banging wedges..and bucking a lot of bucking..it all starts with the individual if he’s staring off to space or sightseeing while your or you’re partner are trying to teach or show him something that means he’ll probably won’t cut it..the sad thing is i’m usually the youngest in camp and i’m 34 i was 25 when i took hand falling serious..even when your comfortable with the young faller always tell him to never stop learning and ask questions..if your looking at a tree more three times time to call your partner over or work around it for a bit..when he’s more comfortable reach him to push trees..boring cuts and strapping cuts.


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## Huntaholic (Sep 27, 2018)

bitzer said:


> I think some guys get it and some don't. Some like the idea and some don't really have to think about it much. It reminds of a line in Jeremiah Johnson - white man he likes tracking. Indian figures it's just natural.


QFT! Ive been in the woods all my life, seriously. My dad took me to the log woods with him when I was 2 years old and left me on a blanket at the logyard with a german sheppard for a babysitter. Yall are gonna laugh but I swear that's the truth. Im 53 years old and I don't ever remember NOT being around logging and tree cutting. As soon as I could crank a saw I was bucking logs on the yard. My grandpa did most of the cutting then with my dad skidding logs with horses. They then bought and old tricycle tractor, then a dozer. I started running a dozer some when I was about 10 yrs old because that looked easier than anything else! LOL. ANYWAY, Ive rambled enough. I just wanted to say that the person I quoted nailed it. To a good timber feller, its natural.


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## Little Al (Sep 28, 2018)

The best pieces of advice I got so far back I have to concentrate to remember Think twice Act once ,& concentrate on what you think will be the outcome of the task you are preforming it will probably end up as you envisaged 90/95% of the time .Keep your concentration mind wandering leads to accidents check kit often & thoroughly your health /life depends on it


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## northmanlogging (Dec 6, 2018)

Threw my first brush fit in like 5 years today...

To clarify, I find myself contracted out to drive log truck... I've never drove log truck until now so far so good no ones dead yet anyway


That said, this outfit is clearing 40 acres, and I split my time between cleaning up the landing, driving truck and fixing their **** ups...

Anyhow, dude is 56, been a dirt werker most of his adult life, never been logging...

So far hes gotten his hand stuck in a winch, dammed near took his head off with a log, bitches constantly, asks questions about every thing (which is fine... when you wait for an answer instead of talking over the guy your asking questions of...) takes 2 hours at least, to get his first fresh chain of the day on... and probably half a pack of smokes in the process...

I've told him repeatedly what lengths and diameters to buck to..

Today, I find half a load of undersized, completely random length random species logs stacked up in a pile that should have been 8" plus fir/hemlock... took me an hour to wade through em to get logs I could haul... did I mention I'm log loader guy now too... 

So trip #3 rolls around... 13hrs into my day it's getting dark, guess who's dicking with the loader machine... throwing pulp logs on my saw log pile... not getting out of the way so I have even a slim chance of leaving the log road in daylight... incase your wondering, trucks have priority... can't get paid if the logs arn't at the mill.

So he gets out, stands in the way for another 5 minutes...

Grabs a shovel and starts cleaning tracks on a machine I'm using... yes using... 

Then stands in the way again...

10 minutes later grumple (76 yrs old still running a 1954 d7 like a kid...) informs me that they are leaving, and that if I might shovel the tracks cause dude is tired... 

I ask were the shovels are.

Dudes response is OPEN YOUR ****ING EYES!

Please note it's full dark now...

I may have swore at him... more then a little, ok a lot...

Finish loading, alone... in the dark... it's a horrible looking load... but it's on the truck... 

Make it the 30 miles back to the hotel...

Guess who quit because I was mean to him?


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## northmanlogging (Dec 6, 2018)

For you viewing pleasure


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## woodfarmer (Dec 6, 2018)

Would you mind moving that brush pile a little more to the right.


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## Porosonik (Dec 7, 2018)

Did he quit because he'd auditioned for "Axe Men" and got the part? Jeez! Back in my day there would have been bloodshed after the first mis-decked logs...


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## northmanlogging (Dec 7, 2018)

Porosonik said:


> Did he quit because he'd auditioned for "Axe Men" and got the part? Jeez! Back in my day there would have been bloodshed after the first mis-decked logs...




Welp... he showed up again today...


Hes just a cry baby, and a jack ass that needs to focus on doing his job, and not playing in the big machines, to clarify, his job is just to hook chokers, nothing else, and it's just one choker, hardly back breaking work.

Really he needs to go home before he kills someone


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## northmanlogging (Dec 7, 2018)

Little better pick, Mt Baker in the way back..


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