# Hand Gun Recommendations



## bowtechmadman (Apr 14, 2009)

With the thought that handguns and CCW's may get rather hard to get in the future, I plan on getting one soon. Need some recommendations on Caliber brand, barrell length. Probably won't carry much other than when camping/ATV trips. Not a big target shooter so probably won't see a great deal of use. Guess something that would be a good combination btw self defense (although I prefer my shotgun) and concealed carry.
Only experience I've had is w/ a 9mm Berretta (military) had to qualify w/ one for the past 16yrs. Price wise I'd like to stay under 5-600 hundred so middle to lower end.
Thanks for the help!


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## mattmc2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

I have a springfield xd .45 and i love it. 549 plus tax. But you can get the compact .40 or 9mm for around 5. I really like them too.


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## gink595 (Apr 14, 2009)

Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, I think they are in 454 casull, and 480 Ruger. They are easy to conceal and make a good bear gun for your camping ATV trips.


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## PA Plumber (Apr 14, 2009)

I have a Ruger GP 100 Stainless, in 357 Mag. 6" barrel. 

Really nice to plink with .38 special rounds, and can toss 38 +P ammo with it.

Easy carry, even on long walks in the woods.


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## Cedarkerf (Apr 14, 2009)

Get a nice 357 mag 4" barrel if you have a gal that wants to shoot put 38s in it or you can put full load 357s in it. I have a 9mm HK usp but if your not that into shooting I recommend a revolver.


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree with the .357 Mag and you can use .38 also. It will take a small J frame S&W to be concealable and those with a full power .357 are monsters! 

For concealability, my Kahr P9 is hard to beat. Only 8 rounds of 9mm but very small when tucked in a quality holster.

Here is from left to right, The Kahr P9, S&W Model 66(.357), S&W 442(J frame .38 +P)








These are all pretty easy to conceal but the 66 weighs a ton compared to the others. The 66 shoots full house .357 loads very easy and controllable, this would be a better gun to hang off the hip while hiking/camping. Check out a Glock 19 also, 15 rnds of 9mm and you can't beat a Glock. I got one but left it out of the picture.


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## retired redneck (Apr 14, 2009)

My carry gun is a ruger sp 101 2'' in stainless only 5 shot but easy to hide is 357 but use 38 + p . home gun is lama .45 acp. the .357 is a all around carry gun...


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## iCreek (Apr 14, 2009)

I have a Glock 23 .40 S&W, nice gun, thought I would CCW with it but not real comfortable, so I carry my Kel-Tec P-11 ($300) almost everywhere, no holster, it has a belt clip that works great. They make a new model PF-9 that is the lightest, flatest, 9mm made, looks nice for $350 range. Just Google 'Kel-Tec PF-9'

That said, for your price range and if I were going to purchase a new handgun, which I am soon, I would go with the *Springfield XDm series, 9mm or .40 S&W*. Probably the most advanced handgun on the market, 4.5" match grade barrel, highest capacity 16 + 1 .40, and 19 + 1 9mm, interchangeable grip for adjustable grip size, load and lock indicators, grip safety. So much more..... Ithink they can be bought $600 range.

http://www.the-m-factor.com/

Click on 'view more'

and watch the Rob Leatham XDm videos to learn more


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## flashy (Apr 15, 2009)

Anybody have any experience with the CZ 75? I know its getting to be somewhat 'dated', but worldwide its just about the most popular semi-auto ever.


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2009)

Glock G-19.

Not too big, not too small, still has 15 round capacity, and mags are affordable and common. Can use the 17rnd G-17 mag or the 33 rnd. G-18 mags as well.

The Springer XD's and the S&W M&P's are also good bets, but Mag prices are going up big time.

Head to a rental range and shoot all three to compare. One of the three will fit your hand better and just "Connect" better.

For concealment, it's all about the holster and belt, and then you dressing around it. I know a guy who is pushing 80, thin as a rail, and he effectively conceals two 3" M-27s every day, everywhere he goes, and has done so since the 70's.

Concealing comfortably means thinking different about mode of dress and proper holster, NOT the dimensions of the sidearm.

Too many folks settle for a smaller, less effective sidearm, that is more difficult to manipulate effectively under stress, in defference to perceived "Comfort" issues caused by crappy cheap holsters on floppy Wal-Mart trouser straps.

On the revolver side of things, just beware the temptation to go lightweight and .357 in a snubby.
The things are snotty in recoil with .357 loads, and only gain you approx 100fps. or so over short barrel specific .38spl defensive loads that wont have your wrist swollen the day after each range session.

If ya go lightweight revolver, stick to the .38's, and again, hit a rental range and get some hands on before deciding.

The market has gone Bat:censored: crazy lately, so good luck finding anything decent at a decent price.

I spent two hours this afternoon tracking down ammo for some CCW course students and even the biggest wholesalers are flat outta ammo, and sidearms that are commonly considered for CCW.... The backorders are NUTS!

How far are ya from Van Buren County?

The Partner and I still have our FFL, and I could bird dog for ya if you know which model you are looking for. Just holler.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## outdoorlivin247 (Apr 15, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> Head to a rental range and shoot all three to compare. One of the three will fit your hand better and just "Connect" better.
> 
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



x2


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## 046 (Apr 15, 2009)

S&W 642 has a cult following... do a google search, loads of info
would like to find an old S&W 342 ti ... but prices have gone nuts! 

fav is an old German made Walther PPK in 9mm short. hard to get smaller and still pack stopping power. 

buried deep in the gun safe is an old Belgium made Browning Hi Power 9mm.


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## JT78 (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree shoot as many different brands that you can and pick the one that feels the best. I have smaller hands so I like the small glocks like the 33 27 30 and 29. I personally love the 10mm round but in +p they kick pretty bad but have an unbelievable amount of knockdown my glock 20 is not very concealable but is accurate to about 50 yards and shoots great but I think I'm going to sell it so I can get a glock 29 subcompact 10mm. My wifes smith and wesson 40 is mid sized and doesnt kick too bad. Its all in what you like and get used to.


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## 046 (Apr 15, 2009)

Yikes.. just found this...
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Glock kB! FAQ v1.35
Examining the catastrophic failures in a popular pistol
Catastrophic Glock Failure






1. What is a kB!?
2. What causes a kB!?
3. Which Glock models are affected?
4. Why does a kB! occur in these Glock models?
5. Do kB!s occur in other guns or just Glocks?
6. What is the relationship between reloads and kB!s?
7. What can I do to prevent a kB!?
8. If I insist on reloading for my .40-something Glock anyway, what can I do to minimize the chance of a kB!?

1. What is a kB!?
Coined by firearms journalist Dean Speir, kB! is shorthand for "kaBOOM!," which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's Glock. (See also Sidebar Addendum.)

Model 30 kB!

2. What causes a kB!?
Catastrophic failures may be caused by a variety of problems, but in general a kB! is as a result of a case failure. The case failure occurs when pressure inside the cartridge increases to the point that it cannot be contained by the case and the material of the case fails, allowing hot gases to escape from the ruptured case web at damagingly high velocities. The resulting uncontained forces can blow the magazine out of the gun, destroy the locking block, cause the tip of the trigger to be snipped off, ruin the trigger bar, rupture the barrel, peel the forward edge of the slide at the ejection port up, and do other nasty things. In general, Glocks tend to contain case failures fairly well, but under some circumstances they can cause injury as well as damage to one's gun. At least one Federal LEO has been injured in a kB! involving a Glock 21 and a Winchester factory overcharge. Additionally, there is some evidence of there being another cause of a kB!… a barrel failure caused by improper metallurgy.

Model 20 cracked receiver

3. Which Glock models are affected?
Speir has documented many instances of kB!s, all of them in the Models 20 and 30-something Glock (.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP). And since the introduction of the Models 30-through-36, there have been incidents of kB!s in the 357 SIG (Models 31, 32 and 33) and the .45 ACP (Models 30 and 36) pistols as well… all with reloaded or remanufactured rounds by most accounts.

And until February 2004. Speir had no (as in zero!) confirmed cases of Glock kB!s in the 9 x 19mm (Models 17, 17L, 18, 19, 26 and 34, although there has been one such reasonably detailed anecdotal report), or the .380 ACP/9 X 17mm (Models 25 and 28). Then came the following from Todd Louis Green:

At the S&W IDPA Winter Championship this past Saturday (28 February) I personally saw a Glock Model 34 with its barrel split top from bottom all the way through the breech. The kB! occurred in front of many witnesses. The shooter was using factory PMC practice ammo.

I had my Canon D10 with me but felt it would have appeared unprofessional to ask for some photos or try to get contact info for the owner.

Anyway, that's the first 9 x 19mm Glock kB! I've ever seen, and with factory ammo no less!

And that is the first confirmed… a second source reported this as well… 9 x 19mm Glock kB!. And in January 2005, a second one has been reported as well.
4. Why do kB!s occur in these Glock models?
Reports compiled by Speir from various independent laboratories are inconclusive as to one single cause for the catastrophic failures.

There do, however, appear to be several contributing factors which collectively may induce catastrophic case failures:

* Firing out of battery. Most Glocks will do this to some degree, especially those improperly maintained.
* Significantly overpressure rounds. These occur mostly in homemade reloads or in commercially remanufactured ammunition, but have occurred in factory ammunition as well.

Unsupported chamber

* Lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp of all large caliber (.40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP) Glock pistols. [See Annotation #5]

Ostensibly as a measure to promote feed reliability, Glock chamber mouths are slightly oversized. One can test this by removing the barrel from the Glock, dropping a factory round into the chamber, and observing that there is brass exposed at the six o'clock position. Take a fired case and note that there is a slight engraving if not actual bulge around the case web, which is most pronounced in the area of the case which, upon firing, was in the six-o'clock position.
* Use of personally reloaded or commercially remanufactured ammunition utilizing cartridge cases of indeterminable generation. Unlike most rifle handloaders, those who reload for handguns do not as a habit segment their fired cases by generation, and each time a case is re-sized for reloading, the brass "works" and weakens through enbrittlement.

kB!s have been documented with factory ammunition, but most of them occur with either commercial or homemade reloads.

USP40 catastrophic failure in Indiana, Spring 1994

5. Do kB!s occur in other guns or just in Glocks?
kB!s do, of course, occur in other guns, but no one appears to be keeping accurate statistics for most of them. Many 1911-style handguns have partially unsupported case mouths, and numerous case separations have occurred in these guns. Early .38 Super barrels were particularly susceptible, and the critical observer may have noticed the predilection among USPSA .38 Super competitors for full beards in an attempt to cloak the vestiages of what came to be known as "super face."

Respected firearms author Frank James, in 1994, documented a number of kB!s in HK USP .40 pistols, which do have fully supported chambers. (Also see this!)

6. What is the relationship between reloads and kB!s?
Most kB!s occur with commercially remanufactured or personally reloaded ammunition.

Blown and deformed .45 ACP cases
Successive re-sizing and firing of a case result in eventual weakening of the brass, increasing the probability of case failure. The partially unsupported chamber in the Glock exacerbates this problem.

"Hard crimping" or overseating of bullets, particularly in the .40 S&W, can cause dramatic increases in pressure almost to the same degree as a propellant overcharge. [See Annotation #3] Either alone or in combination with a weakened case, these factors can result in a kB!

Some people have also postulated a relationship between the use of cast lead bullets and kB!, arguing that buildup of lead in the chamber can lead to pressure buildups as well. The jury seems to be out on this one as a direct causation, but lead build-up will sometimes cause a round to not fully chamber, and as Glocks can discharge with the action not completely locked up ("out of battery," [see Annotation #4]), this can lead to a catastrophic failure.

7. What can I do to prevent a kB!?
* Shoot only new factory ammunition out of your Glock. This is what Glock, Inc. recommends, as do several members of Glock-L. Shooting reloads voids your factory warranty.

Glock Model 22 kB! with an after-market 357 SIG barrel

* Install a barrel with a fully supported chamber. Custom barrel makers include Bar-Sto Precision Machine and…
o Briley Manufacturing
o Jarvis Precision
 o Wilson Combat
…but as can be seen in the adjacent image, even this is not fool-proof if a Glock shooter is determined to over-charge a round!
* Avoid wherever possible .40 S&W ammunition manufactured by Federal Cartridge Company prior to November 1995. For related data, see Annotation #2, a part of this FAQ.
* At an October 1996 G.S.S.F. match on Long Island, one competitor with a Model 22 had simply switched to a .40 S&W Sigma barrel which he averred not only better allowed him to shoot lead because of the conventional rifling, but that the fully supported Sigma chamber significantly decreased the opportunities for a kB!

Note: This procedure is neither recommended nor authorized by Glock, Inc. or Glock Ges.m.b.H.

blown case from a Model 20

8. If I insist on reloading for my 357 SIG or .40-something Glock, what can I do to minimize the chances of a kB!?
* Install a custom barrel. See 7B.
* Keep careful track of your brass. Load "Major Power Factor" loads only in new brass. Don't use range pickups. Don't shoot "hot loads" from used brass. Discard used brass sooner than you would normally.
* Use calipers or case gauges to keep your reloads within spec. Check for excessive bulging in the case web and make sure your bullets are seated to the correct length. Also check for excessive case thinning or bulging.

USP40 catastrophic failure in Indiana, Spring 1994

* The propellant AA#5 [See Annotation #1] has been identified in a disproportionate number of kB!s, not only in Glocks but USP40s with barrels which do provide full case support. A number of Glock-L members have reported kB!s involving this propellant. It is not clear whether these kB!s are the fault of the propellant or the reloader, but it is clear that they are occurring in disproportionate numbers. As early as Fall '92 a source inside Glock, Inc. told Speir on background: "A lot of the blown up Models 22 and 23 we've been seeing has involved Accurate Arms #5… and damned if we know why."

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html



dingeryote said:


> Glock G-19.
> 
> Not too big, not too small, still has 15 round capacity, and mags are affordable and common. Can use the 17rnd G-17 mag or the 33 rnd. G-18 mags as well.


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2009)

046,


Is Dean still on that dead horse with the whip, or did you dig that one up from the archives?

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## 046 (Apr 15, 2009)

just found it ... while doing a bit of research on Glock 19

so are you saying these KB reports are false? sure would like to know...



dingeryote said:


> 046,
> 
> 
> Is Dean still on that dead horse with the whip, or did you dig that one up from the archives?
> ...


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2009)

046 said:


> just found it ... while doing a bit of research on Glock 19
> 
> so are you saying these KB reports are false? sure would like to know...



Not false, not by a long shot.
KB's happen. Statisticly they are rare as hens teeth, but they do happen with ALL handgun designs.

Dean stirred the pot with a direction already assigned, and concentrated on the competition side of things where conditions were most ripe(Hot loaded reloads, multiple sizings of cases, high density canister powders, etc.) for the KB to occur.

He alo neglected to include a study of competition 1911 and P-35 KB's as this was his Bias.

After all was said and done, most folks realized that something like 50% of Law enforcement in the US are carrying Glocks, and the occurances of KB's documented were rare, and of those, the majority involved a couple runs of faulty Factory ammo in .40S&W.

Eliminating the variables of Competition shooters, and reloaded ammo, left few documented incidents amoung hundreds of thousands of Glocks firing many Millions of rounds annually for over ten years.

When I recertified as a Glock Armorer in 06' I think it was, there was an issue concerning some bad frames that failed, and the KB issue was looked at again by the folks that like to dig up old non-issues.. so it's like an Urban myth that just keeps coming up every couple of years and usually associated with a "Ford vs Chevy" mentality.

Myself I have had two KB's with two different handguns, and neither were Glocks.
Both were with Handloads, Both were unsupported chambers, Brass loaded several times and work hardened no doubt.
Both times the steel Panels in the Pachmayer grips stopped any real damage to my hands. Both Handguns were comped 1911 clones in .45acp back before anybody put optics on handguns for IPSC.

The only other KB I have witnessed was a student firing a Kel-tec P-11 with handloads.... the guy that loaded the ammo got his canisters crossed and loaded Bullseye at AA#7 charge weights.:jawdrop:
The Student did real well. Kinda turned pale white(Neat trick for a Hispanic fella) and just stood there with the muzzle pointed down range and raised his other hand..no damage to him, but that Kel-tec was smoked.

If really looked at, the hyped KB "issue" is statisticly limited to .40S&W chambered models, so if that issue bothers a guy, just go 9 or .45 in any sidearm chosen.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## rob206 (Apr 15, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> Not false, not by a long shot.
> KB's happen. Statisticly they are rare as hens teeth, but they do happen with ALL handgun designs.
> 
> Dean stirred the pot with a direction already assigned, and concentrated on the competition side of things where conditions were most ripe(Hot loaded reloads, multiple sizings of cases, high density canister powders, etc.) for the KB to occur.
> ...



I think I remember something about some pistols that were experiencing problems with .40S&W ammo, this was a number of years ago. Did SAAMI reduce the max psi for this round?

Man if there is one powder you don't want to mix up with another, it has to be Bullseye. It is outstanding in my P90 .45, just 3.5gr and a 200gr SWC and it really throws them in a cluster.


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2009)

rob206 said:


> I think I remember something about some pistols that were experiencing problems with .40S&W ammo, this was a number of years ago. Did SAAMI reduce the max psi for this round?
> 
> Man if there is one powder you don't want to mix up with another, it has to be Bullseye. It is outstanding in my P90 .45, just 3.5gr and a 200gr SWC and it really throws them in a cluster.




SAAMI hasn't reduced approved pressures AFAIK.
35,000psi last time I remember.

Agreed on Bullsye and the pressures. Talk about Volume density:jawdrop:!!

Your P90 load is about as classic as it gets. 3.0gr w/ H&G 68 200gr SWC loaded to feed was my old Target load for NRA Bullseye.

Ever chrono the loads?
LOL!!!

If you do, try one string starting with the muzzle up before each shot, and then another string with the muzzle pointed down before each shot.
There is no better demonstration of position sensitivity.

How that load has won so many competitions and continues still, defys Logic. It just does.


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## rob206 (Apr 15, 2009)

Never have put the loads to the chrono, but I know what you mean. I don't know how it delivers such good accuracy with all the case volume left, but it sure is accurate. Very easy to shoot also.

My dad just bought a S&W .357 Model 60 I think, it is a five shooter. Nice gun. He just took his CCW course and had a heck of a time trying to find .38 ammo for it. He didn't have time to build any reloads. I sure do like the trigger pull on the Smith's.


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## KD57 (Apr 15, 2009)

I have had several hundred thousand rounds thru my Glocks, and no KB. No failure to extract, feed, fire, eject either. And that is using factory, reloads, +P or anything I could get into the magazine that resembled ammo. It is one amazing pistol, and very dependable. I have carried dozens of others, and none can compare to the Glock. But for summer carry I usually go to the Kel-Tec, as it hides nicely in lightweight clothing.


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## stihl sawing (Apr 15, 2009)

gink595 said:


> Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, I think they are in 454 casull, and 480 Ruger. They are easy to conceal and make a good bear gun for your camping ATV trips.


LOL, I looked at a 454 casull, don't remember who made it but that thing musta weighed 10 pounds. you are a bigger man than me if you can easily conceal that monster. this thing had like a 12 inch barrel. i could put it down my waist and tell everybody i was born that way after they notice the huge bulge on the inside of my leg, but they would know i was lying.LOL


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## bowtechmadman (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all the insight...Don't think I want a revolver but plan on shooting a couple to see. Just that all my time is w/ a semi (military). Probably out of my price range but do like the looks of the Sig P250...the fact that you can change it rather easily from compact to full size etc...kinda reminds me of my TC Encore long gun w/ the ability to adapt it.


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## gink595 (Apr 15, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> LOL, I looked at a 454 casull, don't remember who made it but that thing musta weighed 10 pounds. you are a bigger man than me if you can easily conceal that monster. this thing had like a 12 inch barrel. i could put it down my waist and tell everybody i was born that way after they notice the huge bulge on the inside of my leg, but they would know i was lying.LOL




ROFL The Alaskan model is alot smaller it's based on the Super Redhawk frame but the barrel length is 2 1/2. It actually stops at the end of the frame. I have a SRH 44 mag with the 7" barrel yeah that thing seems a bit ridiculos to carry for protection, I'd probably poke out the guys eye with the barrel before I could pull the trigger.


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## wood4heat (Apr 15, 2009)

I shot a handful of handguns in the last month trying to decide on one for myself. Wound up getting a Springfield XD9. It felt the best in my hand. I didn't feel like I had to concentrate to line the sights up, just held my arm out and there they were. It may not fit you the same but it's definitely worth consideration. I got the 4" service model but shot the 3" sub compact and it was a nice gun to shoot. 

I considered .40 S&W but went with the 9mm due to the price of ammo. I also found some ballistic reports on some of the high end defense rounds and decided 9mm would be plenty effective should I ever need it for that.


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## bowtechmadman (Apr 15, 2009)

I did a little lookin last night and checked out the XD9 and liked it. I also liked the "feel" of it. I'd like to get the opportunity to shoot one. More I think about it the more I believe a 9mm is the way I'll go.


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## computeruser (Apr 15, 2009)

Given that you already know the manual of arms for the M9/92F, why not just get one of those? You can get them in excellent shape, used, for about $450.

Otherwise, Glock 17/19, Springfield XD, Browning Hi-Power, Sig 226/228/229, or something like that would work. Stay away from the subcompacts unless you have a reason to get one. Stick with common platforms so parts/magazines won't be a PITA to find.


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## bowtechmadman (Apr 15, 2009)

You make good sense Brandon!


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## True Blue Sam (Apr 15, 2009)

Take a look at the Taurus 24/7 pistols. With sales tax, you should be out the door for around $400, and the contributors to www.thehighroad.us say many good things about it. I recently took my mother gun shopping, and the 24/7 in 9mm was the only pistol she could reliably rack with her arthritic hands.


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2009)

Bowtech,

Just got off the horn. Found a "as new in the box" Sig 228 for 575 bucks, and a couple Berretta's, one is a DAO 92 like new and in your price range.

They are out there...

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Banshee (Apr 24, 2009)

It seems like a no brainer to me. If your trained on an M9 than a Beretta 92 would be a good choice. I carried one for years. I also carried the Taurus version of the gun. I like the safty better on the Taurus. 

A good woods caliber would be a 10mm or 357sig. Both are accurate and pack a magnum punch. Easier to carry than a wheelgun IMO. 

You maybe able to get a different barrel in 357sig for a Beretta 40acp. That way you have a gun you trained on in a one of the best calibers for the woods.


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## stinkbait (Apr 24, 2009)

Glock 22 .40 cal 15rd clip. Conceals very well and rugged, not for show, only business.


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## 046 (Apr 24, 2009)

with ammo shortages spreading all over... IMHO it's best to stay away from exotic rounds. 

common 9mm, .45, .38, .357 mag...etc all have plenty of knockdown...


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## Stihl Does It (Apr 25, 2009)

Semi-auto, then Glock 17 or 19. I would also suggest the CZ75 or the compact PCR 75.

For a revolver, I would recommend Smith and Wesson. Do a search on their web site.


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