# isa better or not



## hunthawkdog (Feb 9, 2012)

how did you guys become isa certified collage at home online what of commitment does it take . do you think you make more money becuse your certified . i grew up around the tree svc we dont spay or use chemicals and some diseas i have to look up . I speacilize in big uglys everone else is scared of. In the winter I always wonder if I could work on getting certified .My Dad who is responsable for the wood chips in my blood says I wont make any more money being certified . I cut and trimed about 1500 trees this year and cant remember one person asking if I was certified.what do you guys think !


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## hunthawkdog (Feb 9, 2012)

well as long as i got ur approval . fire up the press print new cards and shirts were certified


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## superjunior (Feb 9, 2012)

Some people aspire to become better, learn more and advance their careers. Some people are happy right where their at. Depends on the person. I'm studying to take my cert. Will it make me more money? I have no idea but that's not my motive anyway.


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## ATH (Feb 9, 2012)

Here are a few opinions on your situation:
*First: I know I make more money being Certified...but that has a lot to do with my business model
*You said you don't get people asking if you are. That _could be_ because the people who care didn't call you, or they may already know so they don't bother asking. (Picture this conversation: Client A to Client B "Do you know of a Certified Arborist, I need some tree work done?" Client B: "He is not Certified, but he does a great job...here is his number."
*Should you get Certified? It depends. If you goal is continuing going after the "big uglies" (and there is good money to be made there), than I am not sure it adds too much. I can tell a client why they want to hire somebody who understands the biology and physiology of trees, different options for pest control, how to manage soils to better improve trees (in addition to safety, rigging, bracing, etc...). ISA offers a program which verifies *minimal* standards have been met. I cannot tell somebody why all of that is important they just want their tree gone. Find somebody who can do it safe, is insured, pays worker's comp, and leaves the job site as you expect it then shop by price. If you do that better than anybody else in your market, and you don't intend to expand beyond, then I doubt there is more money to be made.

Some folks will disagree with me, and I am OK with that - I am only expressing my opinion. I am not intending to portray anybody 'better' then anybody else. We all have a role to play. There is good money to be made in all of those roles and they are all important parts of the industry. Some companies want to cover a wider list of services than others, etc... Figure out who you are and safely run with it!


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## hunthawkdog (Feb 9, 2012)

*isa*

hw didyou get ur certifacation . where did you get a buisiness model and was she expensive


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## hunthawkdog (Feb 9, 2012)

*isa*

I think i would like to get mt cert just not sure how to ge started and how long it takes . I ve also been thinkin about just buyin an isa certified arborist. then i could say isa cert on staff i aint about to mess those chemicals anyhow


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## Carburetorless (Feb 9, 2012)

hunthawkdog said:


> how did you guys become isa certified collage at home online what of commitment does it take . do you think you make more money becuse your certified . i grew up around the tree svc we dont spay or use chemicals and some diseas i have to look up . I speacilize in big uglys everone else is scared of. In the winter I always wonder if I could work on getting certified .My Dad who is responsable for the wood chips in my blood says I wont make any more money being certified . I cut and trimed about 1500 trees this year and cant remember one person asking if I was certified.what do you guys think !



I've looked into certification, because I thought it would be a good idea since I would get the latest in technique from the training involved, but after reading the training outline I got the impression that the people who were running the school were living in the dark ages.

The final test in the program is your climbing test, and they require you to use body thrusting as your method of getting into the canopy. 

To me that seems like a step backwards, because 1) There are better methods of ascent and 2) I couldn't body thrust if my life depended on it.


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## newsawtooth (Feb 9, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> The final test in the program is your climbing test, and they require you to use body thrusting as your method of getting into the canopy.
> 
> To me that seems like a step backwards, because 1) There are better methods of ascent and 2) I couldn't body thrust if my life depended on it.



Certification is not training. The test evaluates very basic minimum competency, not new techniques. Lots of money has been made body thrusting and foot locking for that matter.

As for the cert, it is good stuff to know, especially if you do more than just removals. Whether or not the cert itself is useful is another story. It satisfies part of the requirements for me to get city tree service licenses which are required here, so for me it is worth it.


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## derwoodii (Feb 9, 2012)

Did mine about 3 years ago at a ISA conference here in OZ. It took me less than 5 months of study and that was only about one evening a week to read though the chapters of the book and test myself. I found the Cert CD disc a great help as I'm in the ute a lot so they were subliminal in getting the concepts though. My OZ arb qualifications were pretty past the ISA cert ones but I still found the thing challenging and worth while. I'm pondering doing the Muni cert this year.
This is the motivation hurdle for your self and it may not pay up front now but as you age and look for other jobs than hanging off a rope or the back of saw the qualification & knowledge may lend a hand. 

My advice find some one to do the reading and learning with, its good to have study buddy to set the tasks and push you along, hey perhaps even your dad, then both of you go to a ISA conference and enjoy the journey 

FUTURE CONFERENCE LOCATIONS 2013 August 3-7, 2013: Toronto, Ontario, Canada


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## ATH (Feb 9, 2012)

hunthawkdog said:


> hw didyou get ur certifacation . where did you get a buisiness model and was she expensive


The 'how':
*You either need educational and experience credentials or just longer experience. I had both. Sounds like your experience is adequate if you haven't been through a program.
*You then apply for Certification, they review your credentials and you take the test. They now have some kind of computer test - I did a in-person test. The Study guide is helpful, but depending on your background/knowledge may or may not be necessary.

I couldn't find a business model I liked, so I made my own


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## ATH (Feb 9, 2012)

hunthawkdog said:


> I think i would like to get mt cert just not sure how to ge started and how long it takes . I ve also been thinkin about just buyin an isa certified arborist. then i could say isa cert on staff i aint about to mess those chemicals anyhow



It can go pretty quick if you are ready to take the test.

If you need to hire a fulll timer, that is not a bad route to go.

Just because you are (or are not) a Certifed Arborist, doesn't mean you have to (or must not) work with pesticides. Pesticide licensing is a state issue, has nothing to do with ISA.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 9, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> Certification is not training.



Did you think it was? Lol, I'll bet you were disappointed.  



> The test evaluates very basic minimum competency, not new techniques. Lots of money has been made body thrusting and foot locking for that matter.



I'm sure there has been a lot of money made that way, but why put in the extra sweat and muscle when there are more efficient methods to make the money. A tired climber isn't a safer climber, nor a more productive climber.

The course I looked into was training with certification testing at the end of the program, but I think I'll look for a better program before I invest the $$ and the time. 

When I see a program teaching inefficient methods it tells me the program hasn't evolved much. I think my money would be better spent elsewhere.

I think being certified is a good thing, some people are more likely to hire you if you have it, I think most municipalities require some sort of certification. Even if you don't need it now, it's better to have it on hand if an opportunity comes your way that requires it.


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## ATH (Feb 9, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I've looked into certification, because I thought it would be a good idea since I would get the latest in technique from the training involved, but after reading the training outline I got the impression that the people who were running the school were living in the dark ages.
> 
> The final test in the program is your climbing test, and they require you to use body thrusting as your method of getting into the canopy.
> 
> To me that seems like a step backwards, because 1) There are better methods of ascent and 2) I couldn't body thrust if my life depended on it.


First, there are plenty of training opportunities out there - every one I have seen is available to both Certified Arborists, and folks who never intend to become Certified. Certification provides some motivation to keep up with continuing education, but there is not some exclusive club for CAs. In fact, if you are doing it just to learn more, I suggest you do the learning without sending an extra check to ISA for Certification. (now, ISA membership is a different story.)

Secondly: You had a climbing test to become a Certifed Arborist??? There is a "Climbing Specialist" that is a subcategory of Certification, but you shouldn't need to climb for basic Certification (many argue that is one of the problems with the program...but it is broader than something just for climbers). (I do agree that requiring body thrusting is dumb - but maybe that is because I can't do it either...and I bet you and I can't do it mostly because we have never practiced, and we never practiced because we never saw the point because there are better ways!).


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## formationrx (Feb 9, 2012)

*...*

to OP 
listen to your old man....


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## hunthawkdog (Feb 9, 2012)

*isa*

if your not moving foreward your getting left behind. does isa include aerial rescue . we ran into a deal wher you couldnt perfome without it. also dyall know about a free practice test a guy try. when i got my cdl i just took the test until i got it right it was less painful then reading. I briefly tried to sift out some info on the net but lets just say im better with a saw then computer. also we had alot of oak wilt this summer and i wonder how cert would have been better for that . does it teach you cures or teach you just how to prolong the inevitable .


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## Carburetorless (Feb 9, 2012)

ATH said:


> First, there are plenty of training opportunities out there - every one I have seen is available to both Certified Arborists, and folks who never intend to become Certified. Certification provides some motivation to keep up with continuing education, but there is not some exclusive club for CAs. In fact, if you are doing it just to learn more, I suggest you do the learning without sending an extra check to ISA for Certification. (now, ISA membership is a different story.)
> 
> Secondly: You had a climbing test to become a Certifed Arborist??? There is a "Climbing Specialist" that is a subcategory of Certification, but you shouldn't need to climb for basic Certification (many argue that is one of the problems with the program...but it is broader than something just for climbers).



Yes you're correct, there are categories, ISA Certified Arborist, Climber Specialist, Aerial Lift Specialist, ISA Certified Tree Worker, Municipal Specialist, Utility Specialist, and Board Certified Master Arborist.

(I do agree that requiring body thrusting is dumb - but maybe that is because I can't do it either...and I bet you and I can't do it mostly because we have never practiced, and we never practiced because we never saw the point because there are better ways!).[/QUOTE]

It's as if you've read my post.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 9, 2012)

hunthawkdog said:


> if your not moving foreward your getting left behind. does isa include aerial rescue . we ran into a deal wher you couldnt perfome without it. also dyall know about a free practice test a guy try. when i got my cdl i just took the test until i got it right it was less painful then reading. I briefly tried to sift out some info on the net but lets just say im better with a saw then computer. also we had alot of oak wilt this summer and i wonder how cert would have been better for that . does it teach you cures or teach you just how to prolong the inevitable .



It teaches you the value of looking like you know what you're doing. :biggrin:


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## newsawtooth (Feb 9, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> Did you think it was? Lol, I'll bet you were disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I knew it wasn't training. I relied on experience and self study for that. No matter what method you use, it is difficult to pass the climbing test or make money when you drop your climbing line. Maybe the basics would be a good place to start.


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## Carburetorless (Feb 10, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> I knew it wasn't training. I relied on experience and self study for that. No matter what method you use, it is difficult to pass the climbing test or make money when you drop your climbing line. Maybe the basics would be a good place to start.



Lol Drop your climbing line? :redface: Don't do that, it sucks.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 11, 2012)

Del_ said:


> It's as if you've read my post.




You ought to practice body thrusting, its as basic a climbing move as there is.


Skipping the basics is no way to the top.

EVERY arborist knows how to body thrust and if your training doesn't cover it you're getting bad training.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, sure there are all kinds of fancy toys out there, but ya really should know the basics.


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## ROPECLIMBER (Feb 16, 2012)

I got cetified last summer and plan on going to a oak wilt siminar to get oak wilt certiefied this summer, once you are a CA then it opens up a lot of doors,like classes and siminars the ISA puts on just for CA's, like the oakwilt siminars, and it gives the industry a standard, like electricians,pipefitters, etc, most municiple tree contracts require a CA on site,not just on staff, I work seasonal for Aspen Tree service and they have about 12 CA and one BCMA who is also a Regestered Consulting Arborist , and we learn from each other, and I wouldnt have been concidered for them with out the CA,
Plus it did me good to study up on some thing, and the "we're having brush pickup next week can you come mutilate our trees" calls dont come near as often. plus it sounds good, and makes me accountable. and raises your clientel level .
There are about 300 tree services listed in and around Bexar Co TX and only 68 CA's and only 2 BCMA's so I hope it sets us apart (in a Good way) but then again the others are still in buisness, I cringe every time I drive around San Antonio at the tree mutilation here.
Paul,


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## Tree Pig (Feb 16, 2012)

Del_ said:


> It's as if you've read my post.




You ought to practice body thrusting, its as basic a climbing move as there is.


Skipping the basics is no way to the top.

EVERY arborist knows how to body thrust and if your training doesn't cover it you're getting bad training.[/QUOTE]

yeah and we have an in house expert... treeclimber101 wrote a book on it, ask him he will give you a copy.


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## lxt (Feb 16, 2012)

The Cert. (certified arborist) has been watered down over the years....very watered down! Now will it make you more money? Yes & NO

I say that because, if you are doing day to day tree care then it wont really bring you in any more of income than what you`re already making, However....you may find that during the slow season the credential can be used for insurance claims (storms, car damages tree(s), etc) & the fact that alot of municipalities/boro`s/twp`s want/have to have a certified Arb on sight or performing tree care in their towns (im sure this was a lobbying effort on ISA`s part)

The Cert hasnt hurt me, but it hasnt really provided me with a whole lot either, as was said in an earlier post, that wasnt my intentions when going for the Cert! I can attest to this though: I was employed where the Arb cert was required through the local utility along with many other certs (LCTT, pest/herb license, GIS, etc...) when it came time for layoff it was a matter of money & all these Certs didnt mean squat..........I suffered a short layoff cause they chose a 25-26yr old with less than 6mnths experience in the arboriculture field & only had a pest/herb license, he was chosen over me cause his hourly rate was much lower & the contractor could make more money by him filling the spot over me!!!!

So while the Certs may get you a better pay rate here & there! in some instances that can hurt you.


good luck,



LXT...............


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## Juicemang (Feb 17, 2012)

This industry is practically unregulated in most states. All you have to do is pass a simple test to set yourself a part from the competition. If your not making more money as a certified arborist, you aren't selling yourself right. You should be the customers highest bid most of the time and the ones that like to pay for quality are your customers. I offer a better service then 95% of the competition in my area, so ya I charge more and make more then them.


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## hunthawkdog (Feb 17, 2012)

*isa*



Juicemang said:


> This industry is practically unregulated in most states. All you have to do is pass a simple test to set yourself a part from the competition. If your not making more money as a certified arborist, you aren't selling yourself right. You should be the customeros highest bid most of the time and the ones that like to pay for quality are your customers. I offer a better service then 95% of the competition in my area, so ya I charge more and make more then them.



I like the way you hustle


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## lxt (Feb 17, 2012)

Juicemang said:


> This industry is practically unregulated in most states. All you have to do is pass a simple test to set yourself a part from the competition. If your not making more money as a certified arborist, you aren't selling yourself right. You should be the customers highest bid most of the time and the ones that like to pay for quality are your customers. I offer a better service then 95% of the competition in my area, so ya I charge more and make more then them.




I agree on the unregulated part, However..........it depends on your area in regards to the cert, where I live prior to having my Cert I would take work off those who were certified (Bartlett/Davey reps) & local guys, I would bid higher even, why did I get those jobs, cause I came across more professional & also knew what I was talking about.

The Cert is a good thing dont get me wrong, but... a 25yr vet in this trade will crush a 26yr old with knowledge & has much more experience in sales, there is selling yourself, there is selling the job, there is selling them on price, experience, equipment, reputation, etc.... 9 times outta 10 the home owner will never ask if you`re a certified arborist & if you are cheaper & carry insurance, well thats what really sells the job!

I do agree with what you`re saying, its just that area dictates alot along with skill & many other things!



Good luck,


LXT...................


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## National Tree (Mar 8, 2012)

Juicemang is right! Even my granny can be a certified arborist if she'll take the test and passed it. Would you hire somebody with years of experience in tree service - but not a certified arborist, or a certified one but doesn't have experience at all? Anybody can be a certified arborist if you'll think about it - but not everybody can be a good tree climber - it takes years of hands on experience to become one...


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## tree md (Mar 8, 2012)

National Tree said:


> Juicemang is right! Even my granny can be a certified arborist if she'll take the test and passed it. Would you hire somebody with years of experience in tree service - but not a certified arborist, or a certified one but doesn't have experience at all? Anybody can be a certified arborist if you'll think about it - but not everybody can be a good tree climber - it takes years of hands on experience to become one...



If you are National Tree out of Alabama I am familiar with your company... And workers.


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## National Tree (Mar 8, 2012)

tree md said:


> If you are National Tree out of Alabama I am familiar with your company... And workers.



Yes Juicemang, that's us. Howdy?!


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## tree md (Mar 8, 2012)

Howdy. I had one of your groundy's come work for me for a spell while I was in Birmingham doing storm work. Decent kid but had a lot of family stuff going on. He came to work for me after he left you guys.

I have family in Birmingham and went there to work over the Summer. I'm still getting calls from there.

Still doing storm work?


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## National Tree (Mar 9, 2012)

I see...storm jobs are scarce at this time, but regular tree jobs are abundant. By the way, I apologize when I responded earlier thinking it was for juicemang. So tree md, what state are you operating your business?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk


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## tree md (Mar 9, 2012)

Oklahoma.

I just went to Alabama to help family and friends with storm damage... That was the plan anyway. I ended up staying 6 months and had to leave with the phone still ringing. I had missed the first month of bow season here but was not about to miss my whole deer season due to work.


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## National Tree (Mar 9, 2012)

Oklahoma...that's good to know. Maybe I can contact you in the future if we need help...

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## Arborleaf13 (Mar 11, 2012)

*Master Arborist Certification and Exams*

Hi All, 

Anyone took up the above certification and went through the exams? 

How is the exams structure like? Similar to CA exams? Because the registration for the exams is quite steep. 

Is the exams worth to take? If the Tree ID is based on USA/Canada, we tend to be less advantage since we are living in equator area. 

Pls advice.


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## ATH (Mar 11, 2012)

The tree ID is based on your local region.


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