# what should i expect money wise on sawn lumber



## Skywalker (Dec 30, 2011)

well i havent got the mill yet, about to pull the trigger real soon on spending 7 to 10 large, and i thought it would be a good idea to ask the question how much can i sell the boards for. can anyone give me some examples of what to mill and what to put to firewood, were doing 50 to 70 cords a year

and should i just not get a mill, put the money toward a log grapple trailor and harvest the 100 acre parcel of tops that just got logged 


thanks


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## BobL (Dec 30, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> and should i just not get a mill, put the money toward a log grapple trailor and harvest the 100 acre parcel of tops that just got logged



Yep - the lumber selling business takes 99% of the fun out of milling.


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## mikeb1079 (Dec 30, 2011)

well i hear what bob's saying, but i think as long as your expectations aren't sky high you'll do ok. from what i've seen in my area homebrew lumber seems to sell for around half of what you'd pay in a retail store. for example: if cherry sells for $6 a bf you may be able to get 3. i would use this as a general guide to start with and then adjust your prices up or down.


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## Skywalker (Dec 30, 2011)

thats what im hoping on the rough hardwood, we come accross alot of hardwood that no sawmills will pay us for, so i think its time to get a portable mill, im going to Ohio soon to demo Amerian Bandsaw products mill with a 26 Honda motor, non hydraulic mill, firewood is fun to me, but there isnt much money in it. were getting 200 to 225 a cord delivered locally


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## hamish (Dec 30, 2011)

If you have a local market for green lumber, by all means go at it, prices will vary alot with green lumber. As for your hardwoods, that cherry example theat mike gave you $6 at the store is kiln dried ready to be worked, do you have a kiln? Plan on air drying? Got alot of time on your hands?

If you want to market a product its takes a lil research. What does your capital expenditure on 7-10 large ones include? Any ancillary equipment? How many bands? What do you intend on doing with sharpening.....etc.etc......etc...........

By all means get a mill! Its a blast and a hobby/income/realiance source that will be forever present, and its addictive, and fun.

MY advice to you at present is to forgo the whole business aspect of things and get yourself a mill even if it is the cheapest there is and get learning/training yourself on how to mill. When things dont go as planned, dont push on, stop and analyse whats happening and why its happening, then correct the issue and try again. If you have the nature to learn and adapt quickly you will overcome a mill quickly as well, always realize things happen for a reason.


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 31, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> thats what im hoping on the rough hardwood, we come accross alot of hardwood that no sawmills will pay us for, so i think its time to get a portable mill, im going to Ohio soon to demo Amerian Bandsaw products mill with a 26 Honda motor, non hydraulic mill, firewood is fun to me, but there isnt much money in it. were getting 200 to 225 a cord delivered locally


Why do you think no sawmills will pay you for the hardwoods you have? There must be a reason, heh?

The bottom line is that if you plan to sell hardwood, it's not easy to mill it up properly so that people will pay you good money for it.

You ask such a vague question, there are 100 answers to it. You don't mention what type of wood. You don't mention what grade you will sell it as, or even cut it as. There is a lot of waste when cutting for grade, but more than waste is the time it takes to mill it properly. Anyone can flat saw logs, but that doesn't get the type of lumber that craftsmen will pay top dollar for. That type of lumber has the pith in it and checks. Cutting to grade not only limits the amount of lumber you get, but costs in time to do it.

There is a lot of metal in trees around houses, which tree service often remove. Another reason sawmills don't want anything to do with the trees your offering. Be prepared for that yourself. Blades cost money, and so does sharpening. Of course your sawmill won't run without fuel, plan for it also at $4/gallon it's something to be aware of. 

There is nothing wrong with letting wood air dry, many craftsmen prefer air dried wood as the color is typically better. But if you want to do it quickly, be prepared to buy/build a kiln. Also, you keep mentioning non-hydraulic mills. It is extremely hard to move logs around and even store lumber without some means of moving it, or having a 2nd pair of hands to help rotate it on the mill for you. Hydraulics go a long way to assist in the milling portion. Spending extra "big ones" to get hydraulics could pay for itself many times over.

A friend of mine sells white pine. He builds log homes with pine and sells the cut-offs. He sells 4/4 for $0.50/bf. What he can't sell he gives away for kindlin', but it builds up and he used to burn it, but the eco folks got on his case and he has to dispose of it now. You may have a chipper if you have a tree business though, that could help a lot in that case, to at least help get rid of the waste, mulch is always sought after, but most often people don't want to pay anything for it.

There are many hidden costs in milling lumber, and there is quite a difference between firewood and S4S #1 lumber. Because that lumber you see in the stores has been cut properly to grade, planed and straight edged on all sides, and ready to build with. So your question are also vague in that regard...will you straight edge one side? Will you plane it so that it's not rough sawn? Yep, you can get decent money for S4S #1, but tell me how much work it was after you get your first pallet of it. We can then calculate how much your making per hour. Personally, I'd rather be sitting on a QTY of quality lumber than firewood, so think your doing the right thing...As others have mentioned to you, buying a sawmill used is a big advantage. Finding a decent "used" Woodmizer with hydraulics for about 12 "big ones" could be to your advantage. BTW, there was an American Bandsaw on craigslist in Ohio, as I recall.


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 31, 2011)

Maybe you should go down to American, learn how to operate the sawmill, then go negotiate a deal on this one:





Although getting a great deal on something like this would make your life easier: (my $0.02, and worth what you pay for it)





EDIT: why not call this guy and see how much he sells his hardwoods for ???

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/mat/2775376168.html


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## VA-Sawyer (Dec 31, 2011)

Perhaps you could have a local bandmill come and saw some logs for you. You can see what it takes to get it done, and then can test the lumber market with the sawn wood. Minimum investment for the knowledge you could get. Might even have a few different sawyers come, over time, to compare a few different brands of mills.
I will second the suggestion of getting a used Woodmizer with Hydraulics. 
Rick


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## Skywalker (Dec 31, 2011)

we have a 12 inch Rayco chipper and 12.5 ton crane.and my best buddy has an mfa in furniture design.



will the crane help me rotate logs as well as hydraulics and can a human cut straight lines on a mill or should we look into automated


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 31, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> we have a 12 inch Rayco chipper and 12.5 ton crane.and my best buddy has an mfa in furniture design.


Your best buddy's MFA will not help you with the sawmill work, IMO. Just because he knows how to design furniture doesn't mean he knows about sawing timber up properly. There is an art to the sawmill, especially if you want to get the quality product out of it.


Skywalker said:


> will the crane help me rotate logs as well as hydraulics and can a human cut straight lines on a mill or should we look into automated


Yes, the crane will help, but those cranes are slow to reposition a log. This is the very reason I mention it. I use an 8,000# forklift, it is quicker than those large cranes, but you need to use slings to wrap the log, cinch them low on one side and lift the crane so that the log will rotate onto another side. This takes a LOT of time when your working alone as I often do. If you have a 2nd set of hands to attach and position the slings, as well as spotting for you as the log rotates, that will go a long way. This is at the price of having a 2nd body to help you.

If you cut the logs shorter, it's easier rotate them with a cant hook, but you will need to cut more sections. It's a tradeoff IMO.

Chipper will help to get rid of the waste, for certain.

You didn't mention a debarker, could be a valuable little piece of equipment. If you don't use a debarker your blades will go dull way faster, so it's very handy to have. Even if you remove all the bark from the logs, which I do, there is still a lot of dirt and other cruft left on the actual log itself. I try to clean the log off best I can with brooms and such, but it sticks on the log and doesn't like to come off easily. All of that dulls the teeth. Having a sharpener and setter is very handy, they are not cheap either. If you saw through the bark, you will dull your blades in a few cuts. This is more so with certain species, like cedar which has a lot of silica in it. That is murder on blades.

If you really want to talk about work, quarter sawing requires more work than any other milling. You need to quarter the log up pretty much and rotate it for each cut, and the pieces continue to get narrower as you cut each quarter. There are ways to try and maximize by cutting the vertical grain out of the log, but in the end all of this takes time. And that is the killer, time, time, time...everything takes time. Turning a log takes time, stacking lumber takes time, letting it dry takes time, etc...

Yes, it can be done and people learn how and sawmill all the time. It is honest and hard work, but so is a tree service company, as you must very well know. As I have said before, I would rather be sitting on some nice quality lumber than a bunch of cords of firewood, but you need to realize what it takes to make that quality lumber, because it takes time...and as they say, time is money...


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## betterbuilt (Dec 31, 2011)

Around here pine goes for .50- .60 cents bft. Most other hardwoods for $1.00bft. Cherry sells for 2.00bft. Walnut goes from 3.00-4.50. 

The reality is most of the guy's around here are hurting. A sawyer once told me an easy way to go broke is to store lumber.


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## hamish (Dec 31, 2011)

betterbuilt said:


> Around here pine goes for .50- .60 cents bft. Most other hardwoods for $1.00bft. Cherry sells for 2.00bft. Walnut goes from 3.00-4.50.
> 
> The reality is most of the guy's around here are hurting. A sawyer once told me an easy way to go broke is to store lumber.



A couple of years back we hard a big storm come through this area and massive amounts of white pine were laid down, the government helped out and got it cleaned up and replanted, but damn near every mill in a 200 mile radius has cut white pine just stitting there, the smart ones are selling it now at .20cents bft, and having a hard time selling it..........the others well it will most likely just rot in its piles.

Have always believed in only cutting a tree if I have a use for it, milling a tree if I have the lumber spoken for, etc.....


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## betterbuilt (Dec 31, 2011)

hamish said:


> A couple of years back we hard a big storm come through this area and massive amounts of white pine were laid down, the government helped out and got it cleaned up and replanted, but damn near every mill in a 200 mile radius has cut white pine just stitting there, the smart ones are selling it now at .20cents bft, and having a hard time selling it..........the others well it will most likely just rot in its piles.
> 
> Have always believed in only cutting a tree if I have a use for it, milling a tree if I have the lumber spoken for, etc.....



If I could get pine for .20, I'd be all over it. 

Alot of the problem is people buying lumber don't want grey dry lumber. It's hard for them to see the finished product through the grey discolored exterior. They see it as inferior to the fresh cut stuff. Personally I'd rather have the grey dry stuff. Not to mention it wieghts half as much.


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## twoclones (Dec 31, 2011)

Earlier today I watched this video about a guy who bought a sawmill and eventually turned it into his full time job. Pretty interesting and worth the time to watch... 
Wood-Mizer Sawmill Business - McInturf Sawmill & Kiln - YouTube


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 31, 2011)

betterbuilt said:


> If I could get pine for .20, I'd be all over it.


Yeah, somebody is just blowin' smoke...most pine is going for $350/thousand, and it's at an all time low at the moment. That's $.35/bf, unless my math is bad. That is raw unprocessed logs.

I am not sure where Hamish got his data, but it's bad data, IMO.

Fir is also low, about $350 a thousand, on the west coast. But white pine is a premium in regards to siding, paneling, even wide-plank distressed flooring.



betterbuilt said:


> Alot of the problem is people buying lumber don't want gray dry lumber. It's hard for them to see the finished product through the gray discolored exterior. They see it as inferior to the fresh cut stuff. Personally I'd rather have the grey dry stuff. Not to mention it wieghts half as much.


If your lumber is greying, it's because of how your storing it, IMO. I don't like to buy grey wood either, why should other people? Build a shed and store it properly. People don't buy grey wood in the store, why should they from you? The color has nothing to do with the moisture.



twoclones said:


> Earlier today I watched this video about a guy who bought a sawmill and eventually turned it into his full time job. Pretty interesting and worth the time to watch...
> Wood-Mizer Sawmill Business - McInturf Sawmill & Kiln - YouTube


I've seen that before, and it's convincing, but I think it's wise to consider that the economy is much tougher and continues to be, and construction is in the toilet.

Notice that he started with a Mill, then got a Kiln, sharpener, setter, etc...it's like everything else...time is money...


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## betterbuilt (Dec 31, 2011)

TraditionalTool said:


> Yeah, somebody is just blowin' smoke...most pine is going for $350/thousand, and it's at an all time low at the moment. That's $.35/bf, unless my math is bad. That is raw unprocessed logs.
> 
> I am not sure where Hamish got his data, but it's bad data, IMO.
> 
> ...



I never said my lumber. I'm just saying I'd rather have a drier board thats a little weathered than a freshly cut board. I'm not scared of a little grey. I was just saying people who buy lumber prefer *dry freshly cut kiln dried select premium lumber*. I however prefer the less expensive improperly stored grey stuff that's as valuable as mulch.


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## hamish (Dec 31, 2011)

TraditionalTool said:


> Yeah, somebody is just blowin' smoke...most pine is going for $350/thousand, and it's at an all time low at the moment. That's $.35/bf, unless my math is bad. That is raw unprocessed logs.
> 
> I am not sure where Hamish got his data, but it's bad data, IMO.



www.renfrewcounty.on.ca
Ontario Stewardship - Ontario Stewardship Home

Both government sites. My county is almost 1million hectares in area, and area mills produce about 100 million bf per annum. When white pine accounted for near 70% of that 100m bf, the big players (Stone, Consolidated, Bath, Gilles etc...were still around, they are all gone now) but the loggers still cut hoping to find another market....the market never showed up. White pine production dropped near 25%. A direct cause of supply and demand. Then years later a storm rolls through and the govt trys to save something and floods an already flooded market. There is a market for the lumber but by the time its makes it to market the price has out marketed it self. 

A few are still hoping to get .80cent/bf...........but they arent selling any.

Just different regional markets.


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## TraditionalTool (Jan 1, 2012)

hamish said:


> Just different regional markets.[/Q....
> Your numbers seem off to me, that's all.


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 1, 2012)

I charge between $.60 and $.75 per bf just for my services to saw and dry the customers wood. S4S would add more cost. 
I agree, the numbers don't add up.
Rick


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## gemniii (Jan 1, 2012)

I've read prices like southern yellow pine logs being delivered for $250 / mbf and red oak at $500 / mbf in Tennessee
(and why does mbf stand for thousand board feet?).

Right now MSU is reporting a little more $0.10/bdft, or $100/mbf for stumpage (based on about 4 tons/mbf and $24 to $30/ton). http://msucares.com/forestry/prices/reports/2011/3.pdf.

Prices are picking up but until the housing and furniture markets recover firewood is the only rising market.

So make lumber and slabs, sell the slabs.


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## lmbrman (Jan 1, 2012)

At times I can purchase the 'side lumber' from local mills who saw cabin logs and landscape timbers, red pine 25 cents bf.

No sure why I own a mill


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## hamish (Jan 1, 2012)

.20 is log price at the mill, 5/4 is all they will cut. Those selling at and hoping to make .80/bft is 5/4, any of the s4s has stopped being made, unless a customer shows up with cash in hand.
You can get 5/4 at .20/bft at some of the mills as its cheaper for them to sell the overstock on hand and make a lil money versus not making any.


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## twoclones (Jan 1, 2012)

gemniii said:


> (and why does mbf stand for thousand board feet?).



Because "M" is the roman numeral 1,000. 

1,000 milliliters = 1 liter
1,000 millimeters = 1 meter


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## STLfirewood (Jan 11, 2012)

Around here I can get really good oak saw logs for $250 mbf. I have tried selling some. I sold a little for $1 bft but not a lot. If your buying a mill to make money make sure you can cut 20ft long boards. I have had the mot luck selling trailer floors made of oak. By doing the install and cutting the lumber you can do ok. Most people can't cut 20ft and lumber yards get a crazy price for stuff that long. I don't try and sell a lot because I get $.90 a bft for firewood. I just like running the mill so I sell a little here and there.

Scott


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 11, 2012)

STLfirewood said:


> SNIP / I don't try and sell a lot because I get $.90 a bft for firewood. I just like running the mill so I sell a little here and there.
> Scott



Wow, If I could get $ .90 per bf for firewood, I would fire up the mill, saw a bunch of hardwood logs and sell it as 'Designer Firewood'. Just brush off all the sawdust and make a mint! You know the stuff, "Easy to stack, no dirt, no bark, no sawdust mess. Various wood tone colors available to match your interior. Comes in custom sizes just right for your woodstove!" 
Rick


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## STLfirewood (Jan 12, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Wow, If I could get $ .90 per bf for firewood, I would fire up the mill, saw a bunch of hardwood logs and sell it as 'Designer Firewood'. Just brush off all the sawdust and make a mint! You know the stuff, "Easy to stack, no dirt, no bark, no sawdust mess. Various wood tone colors available to match your interior. Comes in custom sizes just right for your woodstove!"
> Rick



That's to much trouble just cut it, split it, dry it, and deliver it.

Scott


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