# Natural crotch rigging rope



## coolbrze (Dec 12, 2013)

What's a good natural crotch rigging rope? Something that's good for tip tying & hanging sm. to med. size trees?


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## Groundman One (Dec 12, 2013)

I've been using 9/16 Dynasorb for a few months and I love it. We always use a rope "condom", as we call it, in crotch rigging with this rope. Don't want to burn this lovely rope. I'm not sure how easily it burns because we have (so far) taken care not to burn it. http://www.sherrilltree.com/Profess...orbing-Rigging-Line-9-16#sthash.856qXaS6.dpbs

The rope condom. This thing is da bomb: http://www.sherrilltree.com/Profess...r-Cambium-Friction-Saver#sthash.0tuvddTQ.dpbs

9/16 might be a bit big for what you're plans are, but the 1/2" Dynasorb might be perfect.


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## lone wolf (Dec 12, 2013)

Stable Braid Rigging Line by Samson, 9/16"

Built by Samson this all polyester rope is coated with (red colored) urethane for maximum abrasion resistance and protection to the core. Tensile strength 13,300. Stable Braid is softly woven (similar to boating double braided lines) to maximize fiber strength and present a spliceable product for those who want a hand-spliced eye in the end


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## Nemus Talea (Dec 12, 2013)

Light duty tip tying allows many choices. Use an old 16 strand climb line, (don't be dumping loads into it, some guys do, but not designed for it) Samson arbormaster and New England safety blue are tough. Be sure to get a different color for your new climb line.
Tru Blue is popular in my parts for light rigging.
Arborplex has the advantage of being light weight and is "rigging line." Not a bank breaker if a brain dead helper cuts it to pieces. Would pick and get chewed up by some rough bark species.
+ 1 one using rope sleeves. I have a House sleeve. Save wear and tear on any line you choose. Can use on a prune. No tree damage and ya don't have to climb back up to retrieve sling and block. Easy to place with overhand knot. For rigging get the long, large diameter version. Mind your bend radius.
If you go with double braid - using it without some kind of friction relief will just wreck it. Only money, your money.


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## beastmaster (Dec 13, 2013)

I know it's not the latest thing, but I use 1/2 inch three strand a lot for false crotching. It'll take a lot of abuse. It's easy to splice, it's cheap. I let it do the dirty work and save my good ropes for tasks that need them.


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## coolbrze (Dec 14, 2013)

I've seen quite a few people using Samson 1/2" True Blue 12 strand climbing rope, what are your thoughts on that. I looked it up & see that it can be used for light duty rigging...


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## squad143 (Dec 14, 2013)

For light rigging, pretty much any climbing or rigging line will work. I'm partial to double braid for rigging and arbormaster for climbing. My retired climbing lines often become light duty rigging lines. I like the feel of 1/2" lines. Tried the smaller stuff and it just didn't "feel" right to me.

Any natural crotch work will be hard on any rope. The heavier the load and faster run will cause friction and can burn the rope. You'll notice a glaze on the rope. This decreases the life if the rope. To eliminate this I started using a steel biner, first attached to a nylon loop runner, but finally I made an eye to eye out of a piece of amsteel (tennex will also work). I made the eyes using a locked brummel splice. With the amsteel this is very easy to do (lots of help on YouTube).

When in a tree, I'll usually wrap the e2e around the trunk above the branch I'd be natural crouching off of. The rigging line runs through the steel biner and causes a lot less friction. The advantage to an e2e is that you can also girth hitch it (as long as you make your eyes big enough) to any section of the trunk.

The eye to eye I have made are 36" in length. (You'll need approx 6' of amsteel to make one of these). In the pics I have lock stitched the eyes, but have found that with a brummel splice, they are not really necessary. These splices are not that difficult. This was my first ever attempt at splicing.














On the odd occasion that I absolutely have to natural crotch a line, I grab my oldest rope.


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## Nemus Talea (Dec 17, 2013)

beastmaster said:


> I know it's not the latest thing, but I use 1/2 inch three strand a lot for false crotching. It'll take a lot of abuse. It's easy to splice, it's cheap. I let it do the dirty work and save my good ropes for tasks that need them.


3 strand is a solid suggestion for all reasons stated.
Good to have some around just for splicing extra rope tools.
When the going gets sappy, grab the 3 strand!
If twist under load is cited as a detriment - its not so bad.


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## Nemus Talea (Dec 17, 2013)

squad143 said:


> For light rigging, pretty much any climbing or rigging line will work. I'm partial to double braid for rigging and arbormaster for climbing. My retired climbing lines often become light duty rigging lines. I like the feel of 1/2" lines. Tried the smaller stuff and it just didn't "feel" right to me.
> 
> Any natural crotch work will be hard on any rope. The heavier the load and faster run will cause friction and can burn the rope. You'll notice a glaze on the rope. This decreases the life if the rope. To eliminate this I started using a steel biner, first attached to a nylon loop runner, but finally I made an eye to eye out of a piece of amsteel (tennex will also work). I made the eyes using a locked brummel splice. With the amsteel this is very easy to do (lots of help on YouTube).
> 
> ...



Is the biner the sole point of support for the rig line? Or, is the biner placed "above the branch" to break full rope contact with branch and still preserve bend radius by the sides of the branch?
Splicing hollow braid 12 strand into tools is easy and saves lots of money. I lock stitch my final bury. Not a big task. The experts of splicing don't seem to be in full agreement.


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## squad143 (Dec 17, 2013)

The biner is the only contact for the rope.

Ill basket hitch the e2e above the branch (biner will hang below the branch) for simplicity and speed or girth hitch the e2e directly to the trunk whereever the configuration requires it.

I know the proper 4:1 bend radius requires at least a 2" bend for 1/2" rope, but were talking "light" rigging.
If the weight increases, I'll throw in a 2" pulley, or if it gets serious, I'll use a a false crotch with an arborist block.
But the OP was talking natural crotching small to medium size trees.


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## Nemus Talea (Dec 18, 2013)

Thanks for clarifying. What you stated in your reply did occur to me. Light duty false crotch.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Dec 21, 2013)

1/2" Static kermantle rescue rope works great. It has around 10k mbs and all of its strength is in its core. It is alot stiffer then tree rope but super abrasion resistant. Last i looked its around $0.94 a foot

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk


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## treeman75 (Dec 21, 2013)

I use arborplex for light rigging


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## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2013)

squad143 said:


> ...To eliminate this I started using a steel biner, first attached to a nylon loop runner, but finally I made an eye to eye out of a piece of amsteel (tennex will also work). I made the eyes using a locked brummel splice. With the amsteel this is very easy to do (lots of help on YouTube)...
> 
> The eye to eye I have made are 36" in length. (You'll need approx 6' of amsteel to make one of these). In the pics I have lock stitched the eyes, but have found that with a brummel splice, they are not really necessary. These splices are not that difficult. This was my first ever attempt at splicing....



While a brummel is intended to prevent a splice failure, it is not intended to replace all the splicing techniques. That looks like you "whipped" the splice rather than lock stitched it. That works good until it comes loose, then you are relying entirely on the brummel to keep the splice intact. Strength is lost and premature failure can result.

Amsteel is very strong, but it is not real suitable for a lot of tree rigging applications. It has almost no elasticity, so it is more subject to breaking during shock loading. If you put it in a dymamic situation with friction caused by any sort of slippage, it melts VERY quickly with even light friction. It melts at 300°.


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## squad143 (Dec 23, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> While a brummel is intended to prevent a splice failure, it is not intended to replace all the splicing techniques. That looks like you "whipped" the splice rather than lock stitched it. That works good until it comes loose, then you are relying entirely on the brummel to keep the splice intact. Strength is lost and premature failure can result.
> 
> Amsteel is very strong, but it is not real suitable for a lot of tree rigging applications. It has almost no elasticity, so it is more subject to breaking during shock loading. If you put it in a dymamic situation with friction caused by any sort of slippage, it melts VERY quickly with even light friction. It melts at 300°.



Very correct.

For what it is worth, I should have stated that I locked stitched and whipped the splice . I made these as my first attempt at splicing. I found the hollow core an easy start. If I ever get more time (yeah right ) I may try something more complicated.
Just a reminder, this is for "light" rigging and mainly to ease friction on the rope from natural crotching. Rigging rope travels through the biner. I could use a pulley, but that's more gear I have to carry. This e2e is light and you don't notice it on your hip. 
Anything with weight goes through a proper false crotch with an arborist block.


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## bootboy (Dec 23, 2013)

A good hard lay 3 strand will definitely take the most abuse for natural crotch rigging. 

Natural crotch rigging is a waste of a nice double braid rope. 

I don't see any harm in just putting up a block.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 24, 2013)

bootboy said:


> I don't see any harm in just putting up a block.



True, but, sometimes it is way faster to just toss a rope up over, esp if you need to move it around. 3 strand all the way.


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## bootboy (Dec 24, 2013)

If I need to do it quickly, I just put my block on another line, throw it through the crotch and adjust accordingly. I guess you could call it a "floating crotch". 

But yeah, sometimes for smaller stuff I just run some old 1/2" kern or 3 strand through a crotch, like when I'm cutting and lowering from up high. I'll just tie the line off around a branch stub, cut, push, unwrap, and lower. But I'd never take big pieces that way, esp with my nice double strands, too easy to burn a good rope.


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## pdqdl (Dec 24, 2013)

squad143 said:


> Very correct.
> 
> For what it is worth, I should have stated that I locked stitched and whipped the splice . I made these as my first attempt at splicing. I found the hollow core an easy start. If I ever get more time (yeah right ) I may try something more complicated.
> Just a reminder, this is for "light" rigging and mainly to ease friction on the rope from natural crotching. Rigging rope travels through the biner. I could use a pulley, but that's more gear I have to carry. This e2e is light and you don't notice it on your hip.
> Anything with weight goes through a proper false crotch with an arborist block.



Try some tenex. It is just as easy to splice as amsteel, it is far more durable to friction and heat, and it is actually stronger in a splice. Amsteel is incredibly slippery and requires a longer bury to be reliable. 

Plus...Tenex is a whole lot cheaper. Twice as bulky, but better by far for making slings.


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## Groundman One (Dec 24, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> Try some tenex. It is just as easy to splice as amsteel, it is far more durable to friction and heat, and it is actually stronger in a splice. Amsteel is incredibly slippery and requires a longer bury to be reliable.
> 
> Plus...Tenex is a whole lot cheaper. Twice as bulky, but better by far for making slings.


 
I thought Tenex and Amsteel were super strong but had low melting points?


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## pdqdl (Dec 26, 2013)

Tenex does not melt so easy, and it seems to be the best rope around for making slings. I don't know the melting point, but it is very tough.

Some years back, I bought a stretch of 3/8" Amsteel. Just on a whim, I tried climbing a tree in my front yard with it. It did not turn out too well as a climbing rope. I have done some incredible vehicle recoveries with it, but it never sees tree work.

Just the heat from my friction hitch was causing damage, and I was only coming down very slowly. As you may know, Amsteel is incredibly slick, and knots do not hold well with it. If you make the unwise decision to tie it off, then you should be prepared for it to pull down so tight that it squeezes itself in half.


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## bootboy (Dec 26, 2013)

Amsteel is the marketing name of a product made by Samson rope. It is spun from dyneema sk-75 fibers which is the brand name of an Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMWPE) fiber made by DSM of the Netherlands

High density PE plastics typically have glass transition temperatures (functional melting point of plastics) of about 250-350 degrees F.

Tenex is a rope also made by Samson that is spun from Poly-ethylene terephthalate (PET) fibers (the same stuff that type 1 plastic bottles are made out of) Commonly known as polyester, though just one of many compounds classified as polyesters.

Semi-aromatic polyesters like PET, have glass transition temperatures of about 380-420 degrees F.


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## bootboy (Dec 26, 2013)

Amsteel is designed to be used as a static pulling line. It has near zero stretch which makes it a poor choice for dynamic and shock load applications. It's way too expensive to be an economical choice in high abrasion applications.

Tenex is dirt cheap in comparison and it's greater bulk and high tenacity fibers make it well suited for such applications, although it also has poor shock absorbing qualities.

Now I'm rambling. What was this thread about again?


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## pdqdl (Dec 26, 2013)

Threads wander sometimes. We were talking about different ropes.

Amsteel is one of the preferred ropes for the maritime industry. The rope is as strong as steel cable, it doesn't rust, it is easy to splice, and it floats. I think a lot of the logging guys use it for winch lines also, mostly for the same reasons.


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## rtsims (Dec 26, 2013)

Stable braid is terrible for natural crotch rigging. The best I have found yet is 5/8 Yale XTC, its green and white. I have not been able to find the 5/8 anymore though, but they still offer 1/2".
PS: its a 16 strand rope for what that's worth to you


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## pdqdl (Dec 26, 2013)

Stable Braid is my preferred bull rope, and we seldom break out the pulley. Most of our work is natural crotch rigging on removals. The pulley doesn't come out until the limbs are off and the big wood starts to come down; and only if there is no drop zone to work from.


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## rtsims (Dec 26, 2013)

Well I'm glad you have had good luck with it. It's designed specifically to run through blocks and lowering devices. If I have to, I may use it on a smooth barked tree, but anything else it plucks and frays.


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## pdqdl (Dec 26, 2013)

It is tougher than any other variety of rope I have tried. Better friction resistance, and better heat resistance than most. Every now and then we will smoke a rope, but that does not automatically put them out of service, it just makes them a bit scalier to handle.


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## squad143 (Dec 26, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> Try some tenex. It is just as easy to splice as amsteel, it is far more durable to friction and heat, and it is actually stronger in a splice. Amsteel is incredibly slippery and requires a longer bury to be reliable.
> 
> Plus...Tenex is a whole lot cheaper. Twice as bulky, but better by far for making slings.


Thanks. Next time I'm at the Arborist Supply store, I'll see if they have some.


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## TreeBoi4Life (Jan 24, 2014)

I natural crotch rig often and 3 strand 5/8 to 3/4 bull rope is best and there are many good inexpensive brands made by Sampson, New England ropes& teuf...for short, and I have never had any problems using, pulling, etc. Just order a catalogue from a vendor like Sherrill Tree, Bailey's or Wes'Spur. I used 3 strand pro master in this pic to pull over 4 large oaks. Hope this helps. I also got a few rigging videos on my youtube channel also my username on this site. They are in a playlist. im


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## treeman75 (Jan 24, 2014)

TreeBoi4Life said:


> I natural crotch rig often and 3 strand 5/8 to 3/4 bull rope is best and there are many good inexpensive brands made by Sampson, New England ropes& teuf...for short, and I have never had any problems using, pulling, etc. Just order a catalogue from a vendor like Sherrill Tree, Bailey's or Wes'Spur. I used 3 strand pro master in this pic to pull over 4 large oaks. Hope this helps. I also got a few rigging videos on my youtube channel also my username on this site. They are in a playlist. imView attachment 329848


Welcome to the site


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## TreeBoi4Life (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks its a really nice site and smart phone friendly.


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## treeman75 (Jan 24, 2014)

TreeBoi4Life said:


> Thanks its a really nice site and smart phone friendly.


You do a good job on your vids.


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## TreeBoi4Life (Jan 24, 2014)

treeman75 said:


> You do a good job on your vids.


Thanks I appreciate that.


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## pdqdl (Jan 25, 2014)

TreeBoi4Life said:


> I natural crotch rig often and 3 strand 5/8 to 3/4 bull rope is best and there are many good inexpensive brands made by Sampson, New England ropes...



I can't stand working with 3 strand. Sure...its strong and pretty tough. In fact, it is excellent for groundies to hang on to, 'cause it has so much texture.

The problem is all those twists. Heavy log sections coming down start twisting; then, when you untie the log, the whole damn rope starts hockling up because it twists different now that it is unloaded. Because of the twist construction, you cannot ever use the rope and plan on being without twists and loops on it when it is unloaded.

Weight changes how the rope behaves. I hate the stuff.


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## NYTREECLIMBER (Jan 25, 2014)

Triple braid has way to much stretch for my liking. I've been using sta set from New England mostly in pulleys but in some cases natural crotch and it has held up darn good. If I'm exclusively natural crotching 12 strand is what I will use


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## Pelorus (Jan 25, 2014)

I usually dismantle a conifer by removing limbs as I ascend, and use Arbormaster for natural crotch lowering, often several limbs at a time. (Using slings and steel biners). Arbormaster lasts well; far better then Stable Braid for doing that. Safety Blue High Vee also a good tough 16strand for natural crotch rigging.


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