# starting a firewood business?



## turn_n_burn (Oct 2, 2015)

Hey all! I have been scrounging and scrounging for months now, and I have to admit I'm addicted to cutting and splitting wood somethin' fierce. I live in an area where there are not a lot of firewood dealers (nearest ones are 30 to 40 miles away), and I want to get in on the market. I plan to start small and build up, not throw all my eggs in one basket off the line.

Specifically, what kinds of permits and licenses are needed? I know it requires a business license, and I don't want to be one of those shady guys on CL that "has access" to wood. I have looked into acquiring the wood, and the best I can find is to pay a logging company $1300 for a truck load of green logs and then have to wait a year for it to dry properly. Is there any way to get a private cutting permit for the forest service or BLM? We have lots of forest land within an hour of me in Idaho, but I have only been able to find how to buy it from someone else. Or is it just a matter of being at the mercy of the regulated timber sales? There is also a lot of BLM land (separate from the F.S.) with a ton of Juniper, which is getting to be very popular around here for the BTU content. Do they allow you to resell on a standard civilian cutting permit? Also, it it legal to sell wood that was cut from private land (like those people on CL that have a bunch of wood they want rid of or a tree that they want cut down without paying thousands to a tree service company)? 

I've done my market research, and I know that I would be able to move the wood fairly quickly at the right price, but all the little legal loopholes are still fuzzy to me. Anybody have experience with this kind of thing?


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## DanTheCanadian (Oct 3, 2015)

I can't comment for this area but here if you pull permit for cutting trees, licence your vehicle commercial, and claim on taxes that you made an extra income and how, your legal. Simply put, if the government gets their money they're happy!


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## blades (Oct 3, 2015)

I would say that at minimum 50% of firewood suppliers are operating under the radar. The rest are operating as true legal businesses. Maybe 2% actually sell properly dried wood regardless of any ad hype they might be pushing. The word "seasoned" has no practical application around here any more as it seems that to some it means it was cut and split last week sold this. Or the classic seasoned in the round for x amount time but split just to your size spec. just before delivery to your door. 80% of the tree services use firewood as a add on profit center some go a step further and shred the undesirables into mulch for a 3 revenue source. One of the largest wholesale mulch suppliers in the area is all ground up pallets or pallet refuse from pallet recyclers in what ever color you would like.


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## Mike Van (Oct 3, 2015)

You don't have to be a "shady guy" or even use craigslist to have a good wood business. A lot of the questions you ask are going to be specific to Idaho, can't help you there. I do know if you pull & pay for every license, permit, etc plus have to buy logs, you'll be working for about 1.00/hr. Word of mouth is the best advertising there is, don't try to sell a product you wouldn't want to buy - Like wet wood, short loads, etc.


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## MNGuns (Oct 3, 2015)

I buy logs, process, resell, and burn all the junk in my own boiler. On occasion I will cut my own if the right opportunity presents itself. I will say, unless you are mechanized to some degree, the profit from cutting your own "free" wood can be quickly lost. Talk to the mills in you area that are buying logs and see if they have any old stock or cull logs they will sell. It doesn't hurt either to ask every log truck you see at the fuel station if they know of anything for sale or any cutting in the area.

Whether you buy or cut your own, the seasoned wood will sell better but green wood can sell just as well as long as you advertise it as what it truly is. Don't devalue the wood for being green rather add value to the wood that has been seasoned. You have the same expense in both products, yet one has more time invested.

When making firewood quits being fun, you best find something else to do.....


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## flotek (Oct 3, 2015)

Easiest way to make a thousand dollars selling wood is to start with two thousand dollars


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 3, 2015)

Making firewood fun?

I don't think I've ever thought that!


Anyhow the key is volume or a niche market. I sell on average about 10 cords a week if that gives an idea.
I'm not eating steak dinners too often either.


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## Jere39 (Oct 3, 2015)

I have no specific knowledge about Idaho, so I've got no answers to your legal and permit questions. But, that won't stop me from making a couple observations. I don't think you mentioned how much time you intend to apply to this business venture. Are you going to operate weekends and evenings? Do you have daylight time during the week to apply? Are you intending to do all the cutting, splitting, hauling yourself, or do you have partners, buddies, teen sons (or daughters) who can safely operate in a firewood zone? Do you need to buy additional equipment: saws, splitters, tractors, trucks, trailers to get into the business?

And, as another observation, you mentioned buying green logs at $1300 per load and waiting a year for them to dry. Well, my observations suggest a green log will not be seasoned in a year. You would need to process the green logs, buck them, split them and stack them where they are exposed to wind, sun, and drying humidity for them to approach seasoned for burning. Even a dead log, like oak, will hold near 40% moisture until it is cut and split before it starts drying. The dead Red oak I cut will dry about 2%/month once it is cut and split, putting it around 20% on my cheapo MM after a year.


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## Dogsout (Oct 3, 2015)

Jere39 said:


> I have no specific knowledge about Idaho, so I've got no answers to your legal and permit questions. But, that won't stop me from making a couple observations. I don't think you mentioned how much time you intend to apply to this business venture. Are you going to operate weekends and evenings? Do you have daylight time during the week to apply? Are you intending to do all the cutting, splitting, hauling yourself, or do you have partners, buddies, teen sons (or daughters) who can safely operate in a firewood zone? Do you need to buy additional equipment: saws, splitters, tractors, trucks, trailers to get into the business?
> 
> And, as another observation, you mentioned buying green logs at $1300 per load and waiting a year for them to dry. Well, my observations suggest a green log will not be seasoned in a year. You would need to process the green logs, buck them, split them and stack them where they are exposed to wind, sun, and drying humidity for them to approach seasoned for burning. Even a dead log, like oak, will hold near 40% moisture until it is cut and split before it starts drying. The dead Red oak I cut will dry about 2%/month once it is cut and split, putting it around 20% on my cheapo MM after a year.



Jere39 you just hit a homerun with this post. They should sticky your post to the top of the forum board for all of the people that want to make some FAST EASY money starting a firewood business.


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## unclemoustache (Oct 3, 2015)

Southern ID is not to plentiful with trees. I'd say that if you want to be in the firewood business, you need regular access to trees, and fairly inexpensive at that. You might be able to make it work getting logs hauled in and if you have a couple Super Splits and kids to help.
Yes, you can sell wood from private land/trees removed for customers. A lot of tree service companies also sell firewood.
I suggest that you start small and build the business slowly, especially in where to get wood cheap.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 3, 2015)

When I received orders from Elmendorf AFB to Mountain Home AFB my future supervisor told me "There's a pretty girl behind every tree around here". I didn't think that was too funny when I drove into town and realized his joke.

I lived in that area for a bit over 4 years, moved back to AK about 6 years ago. Unless things have drastically changed, I don't think there'd be a real big demand for bought firewood. It would be mostly for campfires or "boutique" use like in fireplaces.

For regular use of home heating you'd have to compete against pretty darn cheap electricity and natural gas.


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## flotek (Oct 3, 2015)

At 1,300 a truck load ( and you haven't touched the wood yet) I don't see any room for a worthwhile profit after its all said and done unless you like doing back breaking labor for 5 bucks an hour


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## moondoggie (Oct 3, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Making firewood fun?
> 
> I don't think I've ever thought that!
> 
> ...


Hot water is nice though!


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## Del_ (Oct 3, 2015)

My advice to people wanting to get into the firewood business is to start small.

By that I mean cutting all firewood to six inches long and splitting to about popsicle stick size.


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## blades (Oct 4, 2015)

Around here every mother's son is selling firewood. From the big operations to the guy down the street that had a tree cut down a month or so ago. I sell a bit now and again, maybe a cord in a year. I am not interested in delivering it. Nor do I care to haggel or listen to some whiner about cost. ( just old and grumpy) It is not a profit center or real income for me.


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## Higs2013 (Oct 4, 2015)

I briefly entertained the idea a few ayers back and I'm glad I passed. Once I started to look into the profit margin as well as the initial expense it was a losing proposition. Especially since any fool with a chainsaw and a truck sells "Seasoned" wood in my area with a tail light warranty!


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## mijdirtyjeep (Oct 4, 2015)

You said it costs you $1300 a truck load, but did not say how big of a load that is. I will assume it is a 10-cord load like I get in. So you have a $130/per cord into it before even touching it. I figure I have $40 per cord into mine to Cut/split/stack it. So that would put that $130 per cord up to around $170/cord. Now it is going to have to sit in the yard and dry for about a year "unless you can sell it green". 

How much do you think you can sell a cord of wood where you are at for?


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## c5rulz (Oct 4, 2015)

Valley Firewood has the true grasp of what this business venture is all about.

You are going to need access to very large quantities of wood, and paying $1300/load has greatly bitten into any potential profit margin. You are paying retail and have elected to take the most time consuming part as your business plan. Loggers can put wood on the landing/truck very quickly efficiently and have proportionately little in the product. They will make out in this arrangement, you will not.


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## cantoo (Oct 4, 2015)

Firewood around here is around $85 a face cord (16") from most guys. Amish put an ad in the local paper last week for $65. Hope no Amish live near you. Slabs are $20 a pickup load already cut to less that 18" and most are decent pieces. Pretty tough competition to beat.
My niece was paying Amish neighbour $55 a face cord for hard maple, 2 little barefoot boys delivered it with horses and a hay wagon and they stacked it in the basement. She gave them ice cream and $10 each for every load ( 2loads) they delivered. That's $175 a full cord and stacked in the basement.
I really like doing firewood but in reality there is just no way it can pay enough to make it worthwhile. For me burning firewood is one of my biggest expenses, if my wife were to ever add up all the money I spend on firewood toys and the time I spend I would be a dead man.


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## stihlfanboy (Oct 4, 2015)

Well I'll throw a little input into this. Now I guess I'm one of the guys with a truck and saw everyone rags on... but I'm a brick layer and do most of my cutting in the winter, when we're layed off. So I have nothing better to do. I heat with wood so the saws are needed anyways, and my truck and tractor I use I'd have anyways so really other then the new quad I bought I had the tools I needed already. I also have lots of room to store wood and 400 acres to gather wood off of. I sell about 30 cords a year if you count the slab wood we sell. Bring in about 100$ a face cord deliverd and 65$ a face cord for slabs. To me it's good money to help out in the winter when times are tough. But I could never make a living off of it. Made some good friends out of new customers and keeps the lights on. Most people around here cut there own wood and everyone is a scavenger.


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## Odog (Oct 4, 2015)

So where are you in South west Idaho? I'm over here West of Twin Falls, the timber is about 2 hours north or south of me. People have been getting about $175 to $200 for a good solid cord delivered. You can get a permit to cut firewood for $12.50 a cord from the forest circus. It usually costs me around $100 to go up and get 2 cords, that's permit and fuel, not counting my time. You can find a lot of dry Doug fir and lodge pole both North and south of me pretty easily. I occasionally sell a few cords, but if I were to make a full time business out of it I would have to figure a way to get the wood out in larger quantities than just 2 cords at a whack.


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## Higs2013 (Oct 4, 2015)

175 to 200 a cord! Where I'm at a seasoned cord from someone you can trust is going for 350! Kiln dried is over 400 a cord!


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## zogger (Oct 4, 2015)

Higs2013 said:


> 175 to 200 a cord! Where I'm at a seasoned cord from someone you can trust is going for 350! Kiln dried is over 400 a cord!


Roughly 150-200 a cord here, but it's hard to tell, most advertised listings are for some various pickup "loads". I wish local demand was higher, we have just tons of good wood around these parts. Or shipping was cheaper and legal...one or the other.


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## muddstopper (Oct 6, 2015)

I see a few things wrong with some thinkings about running a business. Things like I have a saw already, or I have a tractor, or I already own a truck. Just because you already have the equipment, doesnt mean its free. You could have someone give you a saw, truck, tractor,ect and if you dont charge enough to cover replacement cost of that equipment, you will soon be going out of business. Saws wear out, trucks wear out, all equipment wears out. In a business, sooner or later you are going to have to replace some or all of the equipment, and if you havent figured into your pricing some amount to replace those items, you will go out of business. If you dont go out of business, you will certainly see a decrease in your standard of living when you have to replace those worn out items. Your time is just a big of an expense as your equipment cost. You have to add something to your price to pay for your time. If you dont charge for your equipment as well as your time, you dont have a business, you have a charity.


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## sb47 (Oct 6, 2015)

If your looking for hard labor for almost nothing, you've picked a good way to do it.
Tinker with it on a small basis for a few years before you go crazy with it.
I can tell you, if you get to big your going to have to report your profits and the extra work it takes to be legit will make you work even harder for even less money.
Wood is heavy and takes a lot of fuel to transport.
Local wood that is free is about the only you can make it work.
Fuel and time hauling.
Money for saw supply's
Saw and split time.
Stacking and seasoning time
Advertising and promo money and time
Delivery time and insurance and fuel
Splitter fuel and oil's 
Getting rid of the wast created from processing the wood

Fuels, oil's, filters, plugs, chains, bars, files, wedges, saw, splitter, trailer, racks for stacking, the list is much longer then you may realize.


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## sb47 (Oct 6, 2015)

Also, with so many low baller's out there wood prices will never go up from where they are now.
Wood is one of those things that never keeps up with inflation.


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## muddstopper (Oct 6, 2015)

One thing I have noticed is that lowballers come and lowballers go. They will jump in at the first of the season and try to capture market share by undercutting prices. They aint making any money, but most dont know it. Fire wood is just like gas, you burn it up. When its gone, you look for more. Trying to match lowballer pricing just depletes your inventory. Set a price you can make money at and stick to it. When the lowballers and flybynighters, have sold all their wood, you are now in an excellent position to sell your wood at a price you can make money on.


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## sb47 (Oct 6, 2015)

muddstopper said:


> One thing I have noticed is that lowballers come and lowballers go. They will jump in at the first of the season and try to capture market share by undercutting prices. They aint making any money, but most dont know it. Fire wood is just like gas, you burn it up. When its gone, you look for more. Trying to match lowballer pricing just depletes your inventory. Set a price you can make money at and stick to it. When the lowballers and flybynighters, have sold all their wood, you are now in an excellent position to sell your wood at a price you can make money on.



My point is, lowballers will take a portion of your business every year and is hard to predict how many will pop up.


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## muddstopper (Oct 7, 2015)

I agree, lowballers pop up every year, cant do anything about it. Most of them only have a limited amount of wood to sell and limited access to more. They get off work and every evening they rush out to cut a load and try to sell it right then. The weather gets bad and they cant cut wood one day, daylight savings time kicks in and it dark when they get off work, or they just get tired of trying to keep up. A true business will harvest wood all year and have a good supply on hand . Customer needs a load, the business owner loads up the truck and delivers, they dont have to try to scrounge and work there butts off just to have something to sell. Since the wood has been cut and stacked, even if only for a few months, its still better quality wood than the lowballer, that cuts and sells the same day, is providing. If you have better wood and you can supply that wood when its needed, you can ask a better price and get it. If you can keep your prices constant, you will will build a customer base that comes back year after year. It dont take but one or two times of buying green wood from a lowballer before even a dumb customer can figure out he's not getting the deal he thinks he is. Of course some people never learn, but you dont need them as your customer anyways. If you try to chase the lowballers prices,you will never keep up, be able to raise prices, or make any money.


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## jrider (Oct 7, 2015)

Not much upsets people more than buying wood that was claimed as seasoned. They go to light a fire and they get smoke and sizzling wood that won't hold good flames. This is often the case with the low ballers out there. If you are able to build up a steady customer base who is willing to pay fairly for quality, seasoned wood, the low ballers won't eat into YOUR market share at all. After time, you should have a hard time keeping up with demand as word spreads. 
Also with social media such as facebook, there shouldn't be a need to spend much if any on advertising. Around these parts, many towns have "local facebook pages". People post on there asking for wood. You respond, make the deal and deliver on your end. In many cases they post something positive or recommend you the next time someone asks the same question. Last year, it exploded on me and one weekend alone I sold around a dozen more cords just from 1 delivery.


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## muddstopper (Oct 7, 2015)

All of our local facebook yard sale sites have people selling wood and folks looking to buy wood. I dont sell wood, but If I did, I would certainly be taking advantage of the free advertisement one of those sites offer.


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## FLRA_Dave (Oct 7, 2015)

I sell wood part time. I don't sell any seasoned wood (well, except for a pizza place that I made a deal with). I bring the logs home and they sit in a stack until someone orders a load, then I cut/split/load onto the truck/trailer. 

I source all of my logs ($15-$30/cord). My wife will help on occasion. I'm not making much more than operating / equipment costs, but I'm determined to make it work, while I still can. 

Here is a thread of what started it all. It's a slippery slope!

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...aring-could-use-some-advice-direction.231447/

Don't go crazy all at once! I haven't been in this game long, but the experience is invaluable, so take it take it slow and get a feel for what you need to make it happen.


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## blades (Oct 7, 2015)

I don't as a rule sell firewood, a bit here and there or maybe a swap, less than 2 full cords over the past 4 years. Mainly because I was trying to get several years ahead in the drying game. I am now at the point where I can sell, good dry mixed hardwoods, but I can wait until the the low ballers run out and /or people are looking for stuff that will honestly burn and deliver heat in the process. Just really hard for me to let go of all that sweat equity. Not to mention that anything can go south and I dislike paying the local wallet squeezer.


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