# MD's watering page



## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 26, 2006)

I see MDVaden has a page on watering.
The website is very well done, attractive and clear.
Does anyone else think his watering recommendations are on the heavy side? Is it because Oregon has rainforests?
Isn't keeping soils continuously moist asking for soil/root fungus problems, as well as lowering soil gas exchange?


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## Elmore (Aug 26, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> I see MDVaden has a page on watering.
> The website is very well done, attractive and clear.
> Does anyone else think his watering recommendations are on the heavy side? Is it because Oregon has rainforests?
> Isn't keeping soils continuously moist asking for soil/root fungus problems, as well as lowering soil gas exchange?



Yeah, a nice site but I too think that he advocates a bit too much water.

"In the spring or summer, water shrubs - 1 gallon to 3 gallon size root balls - almost every second day when weather is 55 degrees to 75 degrees. If the weather is 75 degrees to 95 degrees, watering may be needed every day. If the weather is above 95 degrees, water every day, and maybe twice a day."

I don't think that much is necessary for the first two seasons. I do water mine in quite heavily at first and two to three times per week for awhile thereafter, depending on the rainfall and temperature. We are in a drought, it's been hovering around 100 degrees here for over a month and I have been giving a couple of newly planted Japanese Maples, 1g & a 3g, about 10 to 15 gallons of water per week, applied 2 to 3 times per week using a 5 gallon bucket with a 1/4" tube emanating from the bottom. I recently got a TreeGator Jr and have been using it on some larger, more established trees. I believe that Medford, OR is a bit dry and hot, not like the upper coast.
The key as I see it is to water thoroughly, slowly and deeply and let the medium dry out some in between the next watering.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 26, 2006)

MD made the pont about using a dowel poked into the soil, which was good, but never really said what to look for. I'd like to see the dowel just dry out before watering again. He seems to indicate that it's best to keep the dowel wet.(?)
The difference may seem inconsequential, but this year in SE WI, we are having a slightly higher than normal rainfall average, and the fungal problems abound. These conditions can, obviously, be recreated artificially with irrigation.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 27, 2006)

I didn't say to flood the plants.

I said to keep them moist.

Frequency and volumes are not at all the same.

Did you guys miss the article at the online forums about watering new trees?

It didn't surprise me.

Frequent waterings - keep them moist.

I find the watering practice to be one of the hardest things for homeowners to figure out. If it's sun, or it it's it's shade, the whole thing changes.

The rainfall or inch-of-water totals, just never quite seem to fix-all.

It seems to be one of the more difficult topics to explain


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 27, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> MD made the pont about using a dowel poked into the soil, which was good, but never really said what to look for. I'd like to see the dowel just dry out before watering again. He seems to indicate that it's best to keep the dowel wet.(?)
> The difference may seem inconsequential, but this year in SE WI, we are having a slightly higher than normal rainfall average, and the fungal problems abound. These conditions can, obviously, be recreated artificially with irrigation.



Time for online forums for you Mike.

 

Actually, I didn't tailor my page to the online forum. I just saw the practice work best for me over time at our 2 acre residence, the country clubs and university campuses.

I might add a couple of paragraphs, though, pertaining to how some soils can fill the hole like a water jug.

Oregon has a lot of that soil nearby creeks and rivers where the soil has some blue color. Not all trees do well in those spots. Certainly not Douglas fir.


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## begleytree (Aug 27, 2006)

Around here we have mostly clay. if you dig a hole, it will hold water. Here I tell folks to let them dry out before watering again, usually a gallon on trees every other day. if it rains, let it dry for a day before beginning watering again. Do that for 10 days (5 waterings) then cut back to a good heavy (3-5 gallon) watering once a week for as long as they want to do it.
I think its a combination of hard to explain, and different locations.
-Ralph


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 27, 2006)

I remember the soil there in Ohio - even got to set up a tent over it.

A bit humid for my blood, the year I was there in summer.

About the trees, I find that when I put in a 16' tall tree like a birch, and weeks later, it's windy and 95 degrees, the root ball is getting wicked clean of water fast - real fast. 

Those are the days when I trickle a bit of water into the root ball to keep it moist, two times a day.

I never let the roots dry out any more for newly planted. Later in a couple of years I will, which causes the roots to anchor deeper. But for esblishment, we maintain a moist rootball.

We never add enough water to water-log the planting hole, since that's flooding, not moistening.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 27, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Did you guys miss the article at the online forums about watering new trees?



No, what forums?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 27, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I didn't say to flood the plants.
> 
> I said to keep them moist.
> 
> Frequency and volumes are not at all the same.



There is a word for keeping a plant constantly moist, over-watering.

You want to add enough water to at least moisten the entire ball, and then let it just dry out before watering again.
Usually when it's hot, it's also humid, so not much is lost to eveporation and stomata are closed, so not much is lost to transpiration. That's why I like the idea of a dowel, it's hard to tell when it's dry by the weather.
If you're keeping it constantly moist, what good is a dowel? Just throw some more water on you crop of growing root rot fungi.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 27, 2006)

Alll plant root balls must have some constant moisture. If a ball is ever in a condition where there is no moisture, the trees are in a state called the permanent wilting point.

If you have a source to some trees that can live without moisture, let us know where these magic trees can be bought.

In Pacific NW states, many of the trees here that are big, naturally are watered beyond just being moistened. In fact, the largest trees are where the most moisture is. And those are not even newly planted trees.

Some of the slowest to establish trees in Oregon, are the reforestation trees, that receive very little supplemental moisture. They survive intially, but don't flourish initially.

Most newly planted trees that are over-watered are trees under the care of persons not properly monitoring the moisture.

I have planted thousands of trees on the golf courses and in landscape contracting. Under my care, or adherance to my advice, nobody has ever lost one tree. No real over-watering occured. My question is this:

*If all those thousands of trees established well with continual moistening, why is it Mike, that your trees are over-watered if moistened.*

You see, I have thousands of tree examples that testify to success. Why is that? What is that you have not succeeded with, and why? If it's not working for you - meaning it's failed - true, you would not want to promoted whatever failed. For me, it's working, and working well. So at this end, there is no overwatering.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 27, 2006)

There's an article I found, I think from Oregon State University, about roots and water. If I find it, I'll post the link. Anyhow, the article mentioned that roots don't grow "to" or toward moisture. It stated that roots only grow where there is moisture. It's been a while since I read the page. If anybody stumbles on it first, post the link.


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## Elmore (Aug 28, 2006)

Here are some sites worth looking at. Much information bolsters all of your advice. As for my practice I water slow, deep and infrequently. The first watering on a newly set tree is the most important one. I really soak it heavy and repeatedly. Important considerations are soil type, exposure, plant type, projected temperature.

http://www.state.sc.us/forest/urbsurv.htm

http://www.horticulturist.com/mastermag8/planting.htm

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1056.htm


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## begleytree (Aug 28, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> the article mentioned that roots don't grow "to" or toward moisture. It stated that roots only grow where there is moisture.



Huh? last time I looked, roots grew 360 degrees. Like to see that link Vaden. Maybe we can all chip in and buy Oregon SU an air spade. I think they'll find a few more roots than that! 
I'll hold off anything else until I read that 'study'
-Ralph


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 28, 2006)

begleytree said:


> Huh? last time I looked, roots grew 360 degrees. Like to see that link Vaden. Maybe we can all chip in and buy Oregon SU an air spade. I think they'll find a few more roots than that!
> I'll hold off anything else until I read that 'study'
> -Ralph



Oh, I doubt they need a tree spade. I think you just need to think of one or two ways that a statement can be understood.

To repeat the point, in other words, the article stated that roots don't grow in a dry moisture-less area of soil, and grow toward a moist water-containing area of soil.

It stated that the roots grow while in the presense of moisture.

I just finished adding about 20 pages to my website this week, but when I get an extra hour or two this week, I'm going to fine-tune the vocabulary on the watering page.

It seems that some people have different versions or interpretations of words like "moisture" or "wet" or "soaked".


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## Ekka (Aug 28, 2006)

So, let me run this by you guys.

Relatively juvenile tree, planted say 2 years ago.

You water consistently more outside of the drip line and purposefully let the area under the drip line dry out.

Are you saying that the roots wont grow toward the moisture from the dry area under the drip line?

I just need to clear this up for my own piece of mind. In fact, I was taught that creating a more root suitable environment with nutrient and moisture away from structures would encourage root to that area. Are you saying that is not so *if* the root origin is dry as roots need to be moist?


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## begleytree (Aug 28, 2006)

Can't debate the veracity of their statements without a link, Vaden.
-Ralph


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 28, 2006)

Roots grow, on a microscopic level at the tips, just like a branch, and in diameter. The direction the tip grows depends on what it encounters as it grows. The speed a root grows is determined by soil oxygen, moisture, texture, and fertility. So roots grow most, where conditions are best.
For the sake of discussion, let's agree soil can be dry, moist, or wet. It may seem that wet or dry are bad, and moist is perfect. This is simply not true. The cycle between wet and dry is very important for a number of reasons.
The first thing we need to understand is that it's not bad for a tree to be wet or dry, if it's not long term. You can trust me, because here in WI, we get wet in the spring, almost daily soaking rains, and dry in the summer, sometimes weeks of heat and no rain, and we have plenty of trees.
Cycling between wet and dry is important because it determines soil O2 levels. When you have actively growing roots, they transpire, give off CO2. the pores of soil need to empty out completely of water before new O2 can be pulled in. If you have constantly moist soil, the micro pores never fill with O2. 
You end up with roots trying grow actively because of the moisture, but unable to because of poor soil gas exchange.
Another big problem with constantly moist soil are root rot fungus. Root rots are a big problem for woody plants grown in irrigated planting sites. The rots thrive in constantly moist soils.
All one needs to do to improve the planting conditions is less. Wait until the dowel just dries out, then water.


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## Ekka (Aug 28, 2006)

It's late, catch up tomorrow on this one.

Mike, I think you mean respire.


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## begleytree (Aug 28, 2006)

Couldn't agree more Maas, very well stated.
Imagine an environment where it was always hot underground, zero gas exchange, zero water, and enormous compaction. You are saying (that they said) roots will not grow in these conditions. Yet thousands of miles of asphalt and concrete roadbeds/ driveways are repaired each year due to this exact problem.
And don't forget parking lots and sidewalks.
Funny some big old sycamore trees growing on the creekbanks have no roots in the water, they all grow back into or along the bank. the soil washes completely out from under them, you can see it quite clearly.
-Ralph


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 28, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> Roots grow, on a microscopic level at the tips, just like a branch, and in diameter. The direction the tip grows depends on what it encounters as it grows. The speed a root grows is determined by soil oxygen, moisture, texture, and fertility. So roots grow most, where conditions are best.
> For the sake of discussion, let's agree soil can be dry, moist, or wet. It may seem that wet or dry are bad, and moist is perfect. This is simply not true. The cycle between wet and dry is very important for a number of reasons.
> The first thing we need to understand is that it's not bad for a tree to be wet or dry, if it's not long term. You can trust me, because here in WI, we get wet in the spring, almost daily soaking rains, and dry in the summer, sometimes weeks of heat and no rain, and we have plenty of trees.
> Cycling between wet and dry is important because it determines soil O2 levels. When you have actively growing roots, they transpire, give off CO2. the pores of soil need to empty out completely of water before new O2 can be pulled in. If you have constantly moist soil, the micro pores never fill with O2.
> ...




That, again, brings up the permanent wilting point.

Soil must always be moist. If there is no moisture, trees die, because the permanent wilting point is permanent.

That's why the concept of keeping tree root balls moist, is the only safe advice.

Remember to keep this in context. The context of the opening post, deals with an advice page that is available to homeowners.

The context also, is newly planted trees. Those trees, cannot, for the first weeks, get water from outside the rootball. All roots are inside the rootball.

So, now, here is a question for you. When soil is not saturated, where the particles are moist, and the soil capillaries have air, which fungi exactly are you saying will grow?

Remember, trees can't live without moisture. So in this neccessary presence of water, what fungi are you talking about?


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 28, 2006)

begleytree said:


> Can't debate the veracity of their statements without a link, Vaden.
> -Ralph




Don't need a link.

Are you saying that you've never read any ISA or college textbooks that cover the permanent wilting point?

Trees must have moisture. The presence of moisture, means something is moist.

To avoid the wilting point, every day, means adding enough moisture so roots are always moist.

Like I said, I have no need for a link. I don't even have need to defend my advice page.

I'm not the one who posted the past few days on the internet, that it's bad to keep tree roots moist.

Somebody else did that.  

Now it's in somebody elses lap to defend their magic trees that don't need moisture - especially newly planted.

We're not talking saturated, waterlogged or wet, here. But moist.

*That's why I'm looking for these magic trees from Jack's nursery of trees that can live without moisture.*

By the way, here's the online seminar article on tree watering...

http://on-line-seminars.com/pb/wp_bb4b9020.html?0.9645236359899118

As we note, the article says nothing about flooding to the point of preventing gas exchange.

It's an article on watering, not flooding.


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## begleytree (Aug 28, 2006)

Isa? nope, any mags/ sales flyers I get from them go into the trash unopened. Made that mistake once.
by permanant wilting point, are you actually refering to field capacity? the point at which all available moisture is locked to the soil, and unavailable to the tree? And for clarification, I never said trees (esp newely planted ones) don't need water. I said don't drown them, and that your soil is prob far differrent from ours, and that factors in. The watering schedule you propose would drown a newly planted tree in this region.
I can't believe you are so defensive. You post your ideas ( in a flashy moving banner in your sig line, no less) on a public board of trained and certified arborists, and expect no feedback? Expect no disagreements?
Please show me where I (or Mike, but he can speak for himself and doesn't need me to) advocated throwing a tree in a hole and never returning. I didnt say never water the tree, I said that I don't think that drowning a newly planted tree is good for it's health. You do what you think is best for you, and I'll do the same for me. I do wish our resident root guy would chime in here, but he's keeping silent.
And be careful of what 'research' comes out of colleges these days. Most of it is geared towards the professors' ideas (ie, politics, art, religion, sexual preferences, race, ect) and not actual scientific research, imo.
Funny enough, I spoke about your 'roots only grow in the persence of water' hypothesis with Dr. Ralph Wisniewski, (retired) prof of dendrology at Ohio university southern campus. He said it was about the silliest idea he's heard in a long time, and would very much like to see your proof. 

-Ralph


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 28, 2006)

Hey, by the way, you guys know I'm half-way kidding with you, don't you?

:yoyo: :yoyo: :yoyo: 

We've been on this forum so long, we're almost like family.

Most of the time, we're actually saying the same thing, but it doesn't seem that way.


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## Ekka (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm staying out of this debate .... we got a drought here and there's way more alive than dead trees. But they're established ones.

I remember the lady at the nursery telling me often that when planting new stuff, say 8" pot, to submerse the pot in a bucket of water till it doesn't float then plant. Can't say I ever did.

But what appears to be the problem is that coarse crappy potting mix dries out and becomes hydrophobic. Many times when littlies are dead you pull them out of the hole and the surrounding soil is moist but the potted root ball is dry as a bone ... hence the dunking recommended by her.

But this debate, if you can call it that, is on bigger stuff.

When I used to plant into huge pots I used to mix my own potting mix, it was nothing like that crap that come with regular pots, mine was soil, you know, loamy sand and organic soil mix with some Searles potting mix that contained water crystals and osmacote fert. That potting mix stuff is junk IMO.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 29, 2006)

Ekka said:


> I'm staying out of this debate .... we got a drought here and there's way more alive than dead trees. But they're established ones.
> 
> I remember the lady at the nursery telling me often that when planting new stuff, say 8" pot, to submerse the pot in a bucket of water till it doesn't float then plant. Can't say I ever did.
> 
> ...



I was thinking about potting mixes yesterday, as well as clay root balls.

The clay ball of some trees can be pretty mean about resaturating once they dry, since water moves in so slow. The backfill almost has to be flooded to let them sit like a tea bag, if they dry.

Then the potting mix / fine bark looking "soil", almost seems to repel water like thatch when it dries. It almost takes repeated spraying until it finally tends to start absorbing. I suppose that may be the stuff you are referring too.


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## Elmore (Aug 30, 2006)

*Planting and establishing trees in the landscape*

Today I spoke with an arborist from Engineered Watering Solutions near Atlanta, GA and he suggested that I check out the info from Dr. Edward F. Gilman, Professor, Environmental Horticulture Department at the University of Florida.
Some good info...check it out.

Irrigation management after planting :
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/planting/irrigation.htm

Planting trees in landscapes :
http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/planting/


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## Ekka (Aug 30, 2006)

Well from everything I've read it appears Vaden's right. 

Cheers


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## Darrell (Aug 31, 2006)

*New Trees vs. Established Trees*



Elmore said:


> Today I spoke with an arborist from Engineered Watering Solutions near Atlanta, GA and he suggested that I check out the info from Dr. Edward F. Gilman, Professor, Environmental Horticulture Department at the University of Florida.



Hello all... I'm new here... but, since I was quoted I thought I'd throw 2 cents into the fray. Without having studied all of the previous debate on the topic, here goes nothin':

1. I think people often confuse proper watering practices for new trees with those for older, established trees. Even ISA texts often speak more towards watering practices for established trees.

2. The differences?
a). The soil has settled (eg: normalized or compacted) around the roots on older, established trees; causing the soil macropores to be tight... On newly planted trees, the soil is recently disturbed and has relatively gaping macropores. In short, the soil around the root system of a newly planted tree is far more porous than that found around a well established tree.
b). In all but a few cases, a newly planted tree is far more accustomed to a regular feeding schedule (as found in the nursery or growing field). An older tree has learned that this isn't life in the real world. 
c). Getting water into the O and A soil horizons is really too easy on a newly planted tree... and relatively much harder on an established tree with settled soil.

The research clearly demonstrates that light and frequent irrigation is the best choice for watering newly planted trees. HOWEVER, to reap the benefits of this approach, one must make sure not to over water. If you do, oxygen is displaced from the soil macropores, the roots die from their inability to respire... and when you pull up the dead tree and find rotted roots, you'll claim it was killed by "root rot". This is not a "chicken or egg" issue, the roots died from a lack of oxygen... then rotted... then you pulled up the tree and diagnosed "root rot". 

For this reason, if you can't manage light and frequent irrigation properly, you should avoid it altogether... and stick with the old paradigm of "once or twice a week" saturation... with drying in between.

Over the past 2 years, I've seen this hold true on over 30,000 newly planted trees, ranging in caliper from 1" to 9", most being in the 2-3" caliper.

Over 'n Out,
Darrell
ISA #SO-5437A


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## Elmore (Aug 31, 2006)

Good to see that you got on here Darrell. Look forward to hearing more from you. I just planted a nice little 7g Magnolia grandiflora 'Little Gem' today. Gave it a bunch of repeated waterings. Watched the little bubbles pop to the surface. I need to go back there and give it more tomorrow. Wish I had an Ooze Tube on it now. It would save me the time of running back to the site and the worry about successful establishment.

<img src="http://www.pathwaystoperennials.com/upload/p2p/ooze_tube.jpg">
Ooze Tubes installed on Costco development


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 1, 2006)

Elmore...

You anchor your trees almost exactly like mine.

We get a bit of sun here, so I wrap my trunks with window screen, double layered and pinch-stapled. It's my favoriite wrap.

And then I water them nicely


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## Elmore (Sep 1, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Elmore...
> 
> You anchor your trees almost exactly like mine.
> 
> ...



Not really...that picture is not of my work. I just obtained it from google. I don't like staking, guying or anchoring newly planted trees unless absolutely necessary.


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## Darrell (Sep 1, 2006)

Elmore said:


> Not really...that picture is not of my work. I just obtained it from google. I don't like staking, guying or anchoring newly planted trees unless absolutely necessary.



The anchoring done in the Elmore's photo was done by Tri-States Landscaping, a large commercial contractor based in the Atlanta area. The trees shown in the photo are 6" caliper trees and the staking method was specified by Costco's LA.

Nonetheless, my vote is with Elmore... don't stake unless absolutely necessary. Why? The unstaked tree will develop a more natural stem taper. Perhaps more importantly, the tree will also grow more roots faster when allowed to flex naturally in the wind... 

When staking is necessary, there are some folks getting really good results by "staking" the root ball instead of guying the tree. In places where staking is truly necessary (Florida, as perhaps the best example... because of hurricanes and sandy soils), staking by the root ball allows the benefits described above and also protects the tree more in high wind events. Why? The tree can bend naturally to relieve wind loads. As the canopy gets closer to the ground, the wind velocities are lower... the "canopy sail" also gets smaller as the scaffold branches collapse naturally into the main stem.

This forum is fun!
Darrell
:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 1, 2006)

Darrell said:


> The anchoring done in the Elmore's photo was done by Tri-States Landscaping, a large commercial contractor based in the Atlanta area. The trees shown in the photo are 6" caliper trees and the staking method was specified by Costco's LA.
> 
> Nonetheless, my vote is with Elmore... don't stake unless absolutely necessary. Why? The unstaked tree will develop a more natural stem taper. Perhaps more importantly, the tree will also grow more roots faster when allowed to flex naturally in the wind...
> 
> ...



I feel the same way. I only stake about 5% of the trees that I put in. Usually for people that are really persistent about wanting stakes. They are such nuisance too (the stakes, that is). 

That's a nice benefit of a well developed rootball - eliminates the need for staking.


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