# false crotch in real crotch



## miko0618 (Feb 14, 2013)

do any of you guys pull a false crotch setup up to the crotch? use a micro pulley instead of dragging the rope over the crotch in hip thrust drt climbing? and if so, do you use a micro pulley? or block? or standard pulley?


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## nelson727 (Feb 20, 2013)

Just came on your post. I fall into the line of old school and have only been using a false crotch for last year or two out of 35. I pull up a ring and ring, (or at first the leather horseshoe looking friction saver) or the flex conduit type. Anything to reduce friction makes work more enjoyable and amount of friction more consistent. Purchased a micro pulley with plan to employ it as part of an adjustable friction saver but, haven’t put the time into making a safe and seamless change over yet.

Welcome to AS by the way.


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## imagineero (Feb 22, 2013)

The friction works to your benefit a lot of the time. If you're hip thrusting, then you take must of your weight off the line when you thrust, then as the thrust ends and your weight comes back on, your holding arm has to hold your weight while you advance your prussik. If you have a pulley set, then it's (slightly) easier to thrust, but a LOT harder to hold your weight while advancing. Your prussik will also wear out a lot faster, and you may need to move to a different hitch because more weight will be on the prussik. Natural crotches reduce the friction your prussik needs to supply. Another disadvantage to setting a pulley is that if your prussik fails to bite, you're pretty much gone. You won't be able to grab the rope if you're in free fall.

I occasionally use a ratcheting pulley to climb on if I have to do a lot of up/down work on a single tree. The pulley is made by ronstan and designed for use on sailing boats. It isn't rated for life support (min 22kn) so I back it up with a locking karabiner straight to the rope. It rotates freely in one direction (going up) but locks and provides quite a lot of friction in the other direction (down). I set it from the ground, by pulling it up into a natural crotch with a rope, then tying that rope off at the base of the tree. Be aware this loads the natural crotch double. It does give you the opportunity to use a ground lower off in case of emergencies which is one plus.

This setup is very slick and nice to use. You've got no friction up, and all the friction you need going down. Very smooth, easy climbing with any hitch, and very predictable. I've tried the same setup for hand lowering limbs as it makes it a lot easier on the groundie.

Shaun


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## Bermie (Feb 24, 2013)

I use a ring and ring FS almost all the time now...as Shaun said, adding a pulley to it has the advantage for going up, but the disadvantage of having to hold on tighter when pausing to bring your hitch up.
A ring and ring seems to strike a nice middle ground, less friction overall, but enough to reduce fatigue when holding or bringing up the hitch.
I could easily add a micro pulley, just clip one to the small ring with a biner.


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## Fairbanks Stump (Mar 3, 2013)

*just to be funny*

I had one of my groundies Complain bitterly when he stepped over our working line while we were dropping a large limb and it rope burned his junk when the line became taut in his true Crotch! I'm just sayin'


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## Kottonwood (Mar 3, 2013)

That sounds like a slick system Shaun. Is this similar to the pulley you are talking about?
PRO#TRAXION | Petzl


I usually tie into a false crotch for removals because the friction stays consistent even when you move around the trunk because as you move around the trunk the sling will wrap and not your rope. On prunes I usually just use a natural crotch and re tie in often.


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## imagineero (Mar 4, 2013)

KeithTheTreeGuy said:


> That sounds like a slick system Shaun. Is this similar to the pulley you are talking about?
> PRO#TRAXION | Petzl
> 
> 
> I usually tie into a false crotch for removals because the friction stays consistent even when you move around the trunk because as you move around the trunk the sling will wrap and not your rope. On prunes I usually just use a natural crotch and re tie in often.



The pro and mini traxion are just normal pullies with a progress capture cam. They go in only one direction, and cannot go in the other. There's no pulley yet made that I've found for use in life support that ratchets, but they;re common in sailing. The one I use is made by ronstan and is called a ratchet pulley. I can get the part number and a pic if you're interested. None of them are rated for life support, they're all around the 4000lb mark, so they need to be backed up.

Shaun


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## miko0618 (Mar 9, 2013)

I have just been using a natural crotch unless it doesn't exist. I get if you went into a free fall on a pulley, your not gonna have time to grab the rope. I was considering the pulley so my ground guy could help me up the tree. I do a lot of work where its all rope. no spikes. I've tried foot loops and its just not worth it. I am thinkin about setting my rope, tying in and climbing a ladder as high as I feel it can be set safe. anyone use ladders? I mean, hip thrusting 40 feet vs walking up a ladder 20 feet then hip thrusting, the ladder sounds pretty nice.


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## imagineero (Mar 9, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> I have just been using a natural crotch unless it doesn't exist. I get if you went into a free fall on a pulley, your not gonna have time to grab the rope. I was considering the pulley so my ground guy could help me up the tree. I do a lot of work where its all rope. no spikes. I've tried foot loops and its just not worth it. I am thinkin about setting my rope, tying in and climbing a ladder as high as I feel it can be set safe. anyone use ladders? I mean, hip thrusting 40 feet vs walking up a ladder 20 feet then hip thrusting, the ladder sounds pretty nice.



The ladder is a big time/energy saver for sure. I've got a 25' ladder in my truck and I often break it out if I have a bunch of spikeless jobs to do. If you've got a dozen trees to trim in a day you save yourself well over 200' of vertical ascension. My Groundie sets te ladder while I set my rope in the tree, then I can safely run up the ladder with harness on already roped in. 25' often gets me to te first branch which means I can climb the tree and not the rope. As soon as I'm in the tree he removes the ladder. They damage easy. Never cut from a ladder.

If you do a lot of tall tree work spikeless, a wraptor or pays for itself pretty quick. You get so much more work done in a day. I don't do enough tall trees to justify it, most of my trimming work is residential, and it's generally spready stuff, under 70'.

Shaun


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## nelson727 (Mar 9, 2013)

I use a 20ft. ext. ladder a lot. In the past I would hate the idea of carrying extra gear/tools in the truck, but 20ft. will almost always get me up into the canopy where I can climb the structure of the tree easily. Quick and works.


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## miko0618 (Mar 9, 2013)

yeah I would never work from a ladder. all of my work is residential. its almost always stuff that cant be done via bucket truck. that's why they hire a climber. but I would love to use a ladder to save me from climbing some. I will try it Monday. thanks!


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## allamerican (Jun 26, 2013)

Hip thrusting is hard. Quite capable but still hard. Probably because 80 percent of the time I use natural crotch for climbing line. I like using an ascender to assist on ascent.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 26, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> I have just been using a natural crotch unless it doesn't exist. I get if you went into a free fall on a pulley, your not gonna have time to grab the rope. I was considering the pulley so my ground guy could help me up the tree. I do a lot of work where its all rope. no spikes. I've tried foot loops and its just not worth it. I am thinkin about setting my rope, tying in and climbing a ladder as high as I feel it can be set safe. anyone use ladders? I mean, hip thrusting 40 feet vs walking up a ladder 20 feet then hip thrusting, the ladder sounds pretty nice.



You could set up like Bermie said with the micro and have a guy belay you.
Jeff


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## beastmaster (Jun 28, 2013)

All that hip thrusting and ladder climbing is making me tired. Been there, done that. If your not using SRT to at lest access the trees, your working way to hard. I'll drop out of a tree 60 ft to get a drink, then shoot back up. 
I'm old, slow and weak, and rarely does any one beat me up the tree. Most time I go up to set everyones lines for them. Not because I'm so great, but I'm the only person I have seen who regularly climbs SRT. I tryed them all and now use the RAD's. On short climbs and just working around the tree I don't use the foot strap but foot lock the RADS, so I have a minimum of equipment.
I don't want to get your thread derailed, but whenever I see some poor guy air humping up a rope i want to spread the word. It so much easier and faster with less ware and tare on your body.


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## treesmith (Jun 29, 2013)

SRT doesn't impress the ladies half as much as a bit of hip thrusting:hmm3grin2orange:


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## miko0618 (Jun 29, 2013)

I saw a youtube video of a guy using a hitch climber pulley with a hitch instead of hand or chest ascender. all he had to do was lanyard in, throw his line over the crotch and connect it to the pulley. went from srt to drt in seconds. he had 2 ascenders, a foot and he called it a knee ascender. couldn't you just connect your one foot to the pulley and use the hitch as an ascender? he had it tending by being clipped to his bridge but I don't think he really used the hitch to ascend.


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## beastmaster (Jun 29, 2013)

If your using a hitch of any kind on a single rope you need a rope wrench or that new hitch hiker(I'm not to familiar with it)or trust me your hitch will lock up and you'll be stuck.
Ive used the rope wrench and its pretty cool, making the transition from single to double rope easy, but personally I can't get the hang of ascending on it and lost my foot ascender a while back. For any Technic to be of value for a working climber it has to be as basic as possible and quick to set up. The more junk you have to switch, take off, put on, etc. eats up time, and defeats the purpose if your working for a living IMHO. 
I almost exclusively access all but the smallest trees using the RADS, and most the time I have my other climbing line hooked to my saddle ready to go for double rope. Change is never easy yet after almost 30 years of climbing, I've developed a new style of climbing using both systems often at the same time. I am 55 years old, this is what keeps me employable. I am slow as molasses. If I was still climbing just on a double rope I wouldn't be working. If I was 25 using both single and double rope together like I do now. I'd be posting videos on you tube.
It frustrating. I feel like Ive reached enlightenment, But no one hardly wants to change the way they learned, They might try it once or twice, but it takes practice, and when its not an instant thing, they go back to their double rope, tieing the tail of their rope with a taunt hitch to their main line. 
You have to became an expert at the throwline too. Because now your shooting high for the best tie in. I use the throw line now more in a week then I had in my life I bet.
Using false crotches and rings and pulleys to make air humping up a tree easier are just fixes to make a labor intensive Technic less so. Single rope is based on physics. People who make long climbs up, like mountain climbers, Cavers, biologist who study canopy's of tall trees use it extensively. Makes sense professional tree climber should too. Wouldn't you think?


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## miko0618 (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't mind getting to a final tie in via drt but I don't usually leave the tree until its done because I hate humping back up.


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## beastmaster (Jun 30, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> I don't mind getting to a final tie in via drt but I don't usually leave the tree until its done because I hate humping back up.



Oh I hear ya, I've had my lunch sent up a few times just for that reason. I work with these stubborn, young mexican kids some times. Well we were trimming a 120 ft deador cedar. It was a 90 foot climb straight up, 30 ft from the trunk. One kid is a weight lifter, arms the size of my legs. After beating them up talking sh#* to them the whole time(They couldn't talk much by 50ft)I went to work dead wooding, When they finely made it, they were beat. When lunch came around they wanted it sent up. I told them I'm eating on the ground. So they came down too. After lunch I was back up the tree in ten min. took 45 min. for one of them and the other never made it.
Next day they swallowed their pride and let me teach them how to SRT up. Now they can all beat me up at lest some times, but I don't really care.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Jun 30, 2013)

If you want a pulley that progress captures, get a prussik pulley. We use them all the time in the fire company in rescue situations, and they work great. I can dig up a picture of one in use if need be.


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