# Starting a Tree Care Service.



## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

I have been compiling a list of equipment to start my own tree climbing business. I was wondering it my equipment list and rough cost where accurate or if i was way low or high and any other advice you could provide..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AloSVqmVl7QVdG5vM0tnWVg3Y2x3ODhMR1M3aEFjVGc


is the link to google docs spreadsheet. I have thought about splitting up the climbing kit and getting a buckinham versatile saddle instead and saving alittle cash.. or is the treemotion harness worth the extra?


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm guessing that you are new to the business ?


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Ye, the home depot wheelbarrow i was hoping to get some life out of until i find a better option.. I am new to the business, i am currently a college student studying horticulture/arboriculture. I'm hopefully working this summer with davey tree then after college gonna work part time for myself and part time for a tree outfit.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 18, 2012)

New guy working for Davey ? Do you have any previous experience doing treework ? If not, all you should need this summer is items 7,8 and 17. Probably a pair of 17 every week. 
Rick


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Davey in Ontario takes on a few people each year from the colleges for the summer to use as groundies. Most of our schools gear was donated by Davey aswell


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## Bomber (Feb 18, 2012)

Wait until you work in the field prior to buying equipment. You will be a groundman prior to being able to climb. You can see what equipment others use base on their climbing style. You will also see the advantages and disadvantages to some equipment.


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks Bomber that is something very smart that never really crossed my mind. I have used the versatile saddle, and rope but i havent really had the chance to try many varietys


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

I was thinking of maybe just getting the climbing kit from sherill tree this summer so i could practice climbing and throwing at home aswell


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 18, 2012)

That is very true Del_. I can often talk a green groundie through a new rigging plan while I am in the tree, but there is little I can do except wait, while they try to throw or shoot a line. That is the second thing I work with on new guys, knots is the first.
Rick


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## Bomber (Feb 18, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> I was thinking of maybe just getting the climbing kit from sherill tree this summer so i could practice climbing and throwing at home aswell



Poison Ivy rope is good but can only be spliced on one end. I personely like eyes in both ends of rope. Pole saws I would rather have detachable 6' sections rather then a telescoping one. All just my preferance but I would rather get the right equipment the first time.


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> That is very true Del_. I can often talk a green groundie through a new rigging plan while I am in the tree, but there is little I can do except wait, while they try to throw or shoot a line. That is the second thing I work with on new guys, knots is the first.
> Rick



We are required to learn a good selection of the most common used knots to pass our college course.


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## dts99 (Feb 18, 2012)

a big hand truck and a rubbermaid barrel will come in much mor handy that a reg wheelbarrow, other than that id start with basic stuff like a barrel and a rake and go from there, spend the ten grand on a old truck and chipper, thats will make you the money to get the rest, stacking brush on a trailer sucks!!!!, so my 2 cents chipper climbing gear and oh yeah you need work to do i.e. clients, welcome to tree business. i did tree work some 13 years before i started up 3 years ago, and i still spend a ton-o-money on little things that i could use, trying to figure out exactly what you need sitting in your dorm wont work, get your gear and get up in the trees


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 18, 2012)

Bomber said:


> Poison Ivy rope is good but can only be spliced on one end. I personely like eyes in both ends of rope. Pole saws I would rather have detachable 6' sections rather then a telescoping one. All just my preferance but I would rather get the right equipment the first time.



Bomber,
That used to be true about PI but, they somehow changed the manufacturing process and it can now be spliced on both ends. Been that way for about 2 years. 

( Bomber PM'd me about this statement. I checked the Sherrill website, and as of now they only show one splice available. I'm pretty sure they did offer 2 splices in either '09 or '10 on PI. I will follow up on this and post what I find. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. )

I agree about getting the right gear the first time. More money upfront, but less money in the long run.

Minifly3,

I looked over the advanced climbing kit you mentioned. Not bad gear, but I think you won't really need a few of the contents and will need a few others not included.

My number one piece of advice on buying a saddle..... physically sit in it, suspended on a rope for at least 15 minutes before buying. Maybe you can get a couple of classmates and 'roadtrip' to a supply store that has a suspended line for trying saddles. I tried 3 or 4 before selecting the one I've been using for almost 4 years. If you aren't comfy in the saddle, you will never get good at treework.

My second suggestion is get a wirecore lanyard for your first one. You won't cut yourself loose with a handsaw, and it gives an extra second of warning if cut with a chainsaw.
Rick


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Ye, I have considered breaking up the advanced climbing pack and just ordering most of the stuff from them. I have sat and use this harness everyday in class:
AMT Versatile Harness by Buckingham, Deluxe : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment so any thoughts on it would be greatly appreciated, as i will probably get it instead of the tree motion for now. We also climb at school with a lanyard like this: 10-ft Wirecore Lanyard Combo : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment so i was gonna buy it instead of the one in the advanced kit aswell.

- (2) 150 ft Neon 3 Throwline (part# NEON-150)
- (2) 14 oz Weights(NEO-14)
- (1) 12 oz Weight (NEO-12)
- RopeBoss™ Cube (32443)
- TreeMotion Saddle (31311)
- (2) Large Caritool (CARI-L)
- Silky Zubat Handsaw (20686)
- Flipline with Rock Grab (31785
- Split Tail (2-eye), 10MM Beeline (31296)
- RopeBoss™ Deluxe 250 Bag (32376)
- RopeBoss™ StretchTop Bag (32379)
- RopeBoss™ Drawstring Bag (32380)
- (2) Am'd Carabiners (15972)
- (2) Petzl OK Carabiners (31527)
- Hitch Climber Pulley (31315)
- 150ft. of Poison Ivy® Rope, Spliced (PIVY-150-S) (or High-Vee/Safety Blue)


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## Zale (Feb 18, 2012)

OP- if you are going to work for Davey, hold off on buying all this gear. If you show up with all your new fancy toys, be prepared to get a lot of #### from the crews. Davey will give you the basic equipment that you will need. Just watch and learn from the other climbers. Crews tend to give a cold shoulder to college kids but hang in there and be safe.


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## minifly3 (Feb 18, 2012)

I wasn't planning on taking this gear to Davey, Considering most of the people at Davey branch i would work at came from my school/its sister schools it wouldn't be to bad. The gear i plan on getting for summer is so i can practice at home and do work for family.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 19, 2012)

minifly3,

How about telling us more about the job with Davey. It sounds like it might be some kind of co-op work study deal, where they apprentice you, rather than just making you drag brush the first two years.

While many on here will say 'dragging brush' is the only way to pay your dues, I think a student in an Arborist program should get a break there. You do need first hand experience dragging brush so you understand just what it takes to do it well. You need to understand the importance of proper routing, chipper location, remaining clear of the drop zone etc. You may also learn something about optimum branch size for dragging. Two weeks to a month should give you the needed knowledge on the subject.
It will also give you a chance to observe how the rest of the crew works together. A good groundie can be just as important as the climber, to getting the job done quick and safe. Maybe another month of handling ropes and some easy rigging. Some hands on training with a port-a-wrap or GRCS. Then if you are still interested, maybe a few climbs in a work enviroment. Everybody waiting on you, while you try to figure out which side of the limb you want to cut from. Trying to figure out which cut to use, while your heart is pounding at 180 bpm. Good times.

So, is this job part of an organized program ?
Rick


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## lxt (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> Thanks Bomber that is something very smart that never really crossed my mind. I have used the versatile saddle, and rope but i havent really had the chance to try many varietys






minifly3 said:


> We are required to learn a good selection of the most common used knots to pass our college course.




I am always amazed at those who are in college or just outta college that the simplest things just dont play into their thinking process & even more amazed that someone in college would basically shelve their college education to start climbing/tree service.

If this is really where your interest is? you would have been better off to just get hired on with Davey & go through an apprenticeship, college education in arboriculture will not land you the high pay that a degree should, however having a degree in general will get you many jobs, If the field tree work side is your forte? & you will know soon enough....you might have been better off selecting a different educational route???

Good luck,


LXT...........


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## Kottonwood (Feb 20, 2012)

You forgot one major large ticket item on your list..... LIABILITY INSURANCE- $1000/yr how bout workers comp if you want to hire a guy 5-900 per month

Just wanted to throw that one in there.

I agree with what some of the other folks on here have said, work first then decide what you need. School is going to give you some really great knowledge about trees and tree work but it ain't gonna show you a goddamm about what really goes on on a job site and what things you need to run a profitable service..... like the ability to estimate trees properly for instance

I started my business less than two years ago, IMO you need a minimum of $25000 initial investment and at least $5000 in the bank to start a tree service that you can actually turn a profit with.... and that is if you are a BADASS climber that can do any tree to extremely high standards in a short amount of time because you are going to be spending five times what established companies are doing on groundwork and you are not going to be able to afford to hire a climber. I now have about ten times that invested in my business and we are just now getting to the point where I feel we are efficient and I don't have to climb every tree myself.

I suggest you buy your equipment one piece at a time as you work, find things that work well and purchase them. The climbing kits from sherrill are OK but like others have said they all have something you don't need and are missing things you do.

If you find a comfy saddle, buy it and use it at work. The more you use it the better you'll be in it. You can make things like loop slings yourself and save a bit of cash..... and the knotless rigging kit is kind of silly... just tie your damn bowline and buy a 200t instead of that echo.

Focus on your climbing and rigging equipment first, let your boss worry about the clean up equipment.


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 20, 2012)

Update on splicing PI on both ends as promised in earlier post:

Sherrill did offer PI spliced on both ends for a while, but stopped due to milking problems.

Knot and Rope Supply will still sell PI with 2 splices, but they charge extra, due to the extra time spent milking rope before splicing.
Rick


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

Saywer ~ It's not really an apprenticeship officially, it's just the way things have been here for years. Davey tree's local branch always takes some of the students if any are interested for the summer and we still start as groundies but after the first month if you show interest they let you climb the odd tree and learn other things. It's a pretty good deal. Alot of the kids that do this end up working for Davey after school so it's a win win for both student and Davey. 

My college degree is in Horticulture but my focus has been on landscape/tree care. Money isn't everything, I didn't go to school to be a tree climber. I will be finishing college before starting it


Is the 200T really that much better or is it just a matter of who prefers echo who prefers stihl.


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## Buzzkill (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> Is the 200T really that much better or is it just a matter of who prefers echo who prefers stihl.



Thread Death.


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

Buzzkill said:


> Thread Death.



It's an honest question, We have each at school, but I believe our stihl is a 192t which is in the same price point as the echo. I have no problem paying more for a better saw but at x2 price i wanna make sure it is a better saw. Even compared to its 192t


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## millbilly (Feb 20, 2012)

I didnt see the echo at top sorry patriot


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> Is the 200T really that much better or is it just a matter of who prefers echo who prefers stihl.



I don't want to get another Ford - Chevy war started but, let me ask you this....... Do you think many folks would pay 2X the money for the 200 if it wasn't worth it ? And yes, I use a 200T.


A month dragging brush sounds about right, as a minimum. It sounds like the job could be a fair opportunity for the students.
Rick


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

Yep, its a really good deal for students. I will change to the stihl 200t, out of curiosity what is it going for in the states? It is $709, same with the 201t.. 200T is better then the 201T?


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## millbilly (Feb 20, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> I don't want to get another Ford - Chevy war started but, let me ask you this....... Do you think many folks would pay 2X the money for the 200 if it wasn't worth it ? And yes, I use a 200T.
> 
> 
> A month dragging brush sounds about right, as a minimum. It sounds like the job could be a fair opportunity for the students.
> Rick



Ever run a muffler modded cs330? It shocked me. I don't think a ms200 in the hands of a novice makes sense.


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## Kottonwood (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> It's an honest question, We have each at school, but I believe our stihl is a 192t which is in the same price point as the echo. I have no problem paying more for a better saw but at x2 price i wanna make sure it is a better saw. Even compared to its 192t



I believe the general consensus amongst the arborist community is that the 200T is God's gift to tree climbers.... whether you're a husky guy, stihl guy, or for some unknown reason an echo guy.... you should have a 200T, there really isn't a comparable saw. The 192 is comparable to the husky and echo tophandles.... not to the 200t


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

So would it be reasonable to have a 200t with a 192t as a backup or just get two 200t


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## Kottonwood (Feb 20, 2012)

I started with a 200t and a 460. One day I pinched my 200t in a big cut on a large cottonwoood. It was close to the end of the day on a very long day.... I really did not feel like using the 460 in the tree at that point. The next day I went out and bought a 192T as a backup. One of my climbers actually prefers the 192 when trimming, other than that it doesn't get used much. I have four 200s now so there is always a backup but at the beginning that 192 saved me a few times when the ol 200 went down for any reason. The 192 is still a good saw, so is the husky and the echo, there really just isn't any replacement for a 200 though. JMO

Honestly though it sounds like you really need to work with a crew for a bit, you will start to get a good feeling of what equipment works and what doesn't. When working for Davey you will not be equipped like you would probably like to be if you're on your own. As you work think about all the tools that would make your life easier and then start compiling your list..... I imagine first thing on it is gonna be a truck and chipper... ####### tree work sucks without a chipper.


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## tree md (Feb 20, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Bomber,
> That used to be true about PI but, they somehow changed the manufacturing process and it can now be spliced on both ends. Been that way for about 2 years.
> 
> ( Bomber PM'd me about this statement. I checked the Sherrill website, and as of now they only show one splice available. I'm pretty sure they did offer 2 splices in either '09 or '10 on PI. I will follow up on this and post what I find. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. )


 
You can get PI spliced on both ends. I've got one. I called them and asked for that option I believe. They used to offer it in the spliced eye options drop down menu but not sure if they still do. I had called them with a question about a spliced eye prussic and asked them to send me a 150' PI spliced on both ends. They said no problem.

To the OP. Nothing wrong with dreaming and having yourself a wish list. I would upgrade to Stihl saws though. And get a couple of years of experience under your belt before trying to go it on your own completely. There is still tons of stuff you can learn by working for experienced groundsmen, climbers and salesmen. Lots to know when going it on your own... And it's not all just knowing how to climb. However, it's never too early to start accumulating your equipment and gear.


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## tree md (Feb 20, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Update on splicing PI on both ends as promised in earlier post:
> 
> Sherrill did offer PI spliced on both ends for a while, but stopped due to milking problems.
> 
> ...



Just saw this one. It has been over a year since I bought my PI line so I stand corrected.


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

Yep TreeMd, i planned on working for a company for a few years first for sure, plus i need time to save up money/ slowly purchase gear.

What stihl saw would you guys recommend for the takedowns where a 16" bar wont cut it? 460?


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## superjunior (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> Yep TreeMd, i planned on working for a company for a few years first for sure, plus i need time to save up money/ slowly purchase gear.
> 
> What stihl saw would you guys recommend for the takedowns where a 16" bar wont cut it? 460?



you can't go wrong with a 460, well unless they started putting those silly caps on those too, mines an older one


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

superjunior said:


> you can't go wrong with a 460, well unless they started putting those silly caps on those too, mines an older one


What size of bar do you run?

25,000 budget ain't gonna cut it with a chipper in there lol..


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## VA-Sawyer (Feb 20, 2012)

tree md said:


> Just saw this one. It has been over a year since I bought my PI line so I stand corrected.



I know just how you feel. It's ok, Bomber got me straightened out too.
Rick


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## superjunior (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> What size of bar do you run?



got a 24 inch on it, I think its a good size for the power.


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## tree md (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> Yep TreeMd, i planned on working for a company for a few years first for sure, plus i need time to save up money/ slowly purchase gear.
> 
> What stihl saw would you guys recommend for the takedowns where a 16" bar wont cut it? 460?



If I were just starting out and cash was tight I would go with a 2 saw plan. The 200T and 460 would be a good choice. I prefer the 440 over the 460 myself as it is a little lighter to use in the tree and very little power trade off. They had started making them again but I'm not sure if they are still available. I have an older 044 (same saw but older model) and I just cannot kill that thing. I dropped it off a roof doing a hairy crane job on some storm damage last year and it just keeps on ticking. 460 might be a better choice for the two saw plan though. It would be a little beefier on the ground. I have always gotten by with the 044 for most of my work. I have a 660 if I need to go larger. I have every Stihl saw in the pro lineup except for the 460 and 880. I like putting my money into my gear. You will never go wrong doing that.


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

I figured for the extra $400 I would go the 3 saw plan. 200T , 460T, 192T. 

Is it stupid to get a dump trailer instead of chipper for a startup? Money is still a wee bit of an issue. Decent Chippers are $12,000 ish here. 5 ton dump trailer is little over $4000..

~ Once revenue was coming in, I would purchase a chipper within a 2 years if business was good.


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## tree md (Feb 20, 2012)

A trailer is better than a pickup or minivan. You've got plenty of time on down the line to buy a chipper. First you need to make the money for one.

I would not go with a 192 and a 200. Both are arborist saws and too redundant. For a three saw plan I would go with a 200t then a 260. They don't make a 460 T. T stands for top handle, which denotes arborist saw.


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## superjunior (Feb 20, 2012)

tree md said:


> A trailer is better than a pickup or minivan. You've got plenty of time on down the line to buy a chipper. First you need to make the money for one.
> 
> I would not go with a 192 and a 200. Both are arborist saws and too redundant. For a three saw plan I would go with a 200t then a 260. They don't make a 460 T. T stands for top handle, which denotes arborist saw.



yep, a 200, 260 and 460 will pretty much cover it


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## Kottonwood (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> What size of bar do you run?
> 
> 25,000 budget ain't gonna cut it with a chipper in there lol..



Bought my first chipper for 6 gs and put two into it along with some hours. Someone had dropped a log on it..... needed a little work. I built my first truck for 13000 that leaves four grand for the rest. Make it count! The five grand in the bank is for printing flyers, paying insurance, and gas. Like I said, it's the minimum.

Here's the truck and chipper.... and my poodle... ya gotta factor that in your budget too


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

I had the T ending on my mind. I meant the normal 460. Maybe I'll just stick with the 2 saw plan

Patriot, I could make 25 grand work in the states but Canada is a different world. Chippers and other used equipment is rarer, harder to find and usually cost more.



2500ish sized pickup with Bedslide to hold all the gear & 5ton Dump Trailer was my thinking.


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## dts99 (Feb 20, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> I had the T ending on my mind. I meant the normal 460. Maybe I'll just stick with the 2 saw plan
> 
> Patriot, I could make 25 grand work in the states but Canada is a different world. Chippers and other used equipment is rarer, harder to find and usually cost more.
> 
> ...



i cut on a 2 saw plan for almost 2 years, 020t and a 346, i had a 16" and a 20" for the 346, i cut big stuff too, cut it all into manageble pieces and hand trucked it on to my flat bed trailer, it was work but i made money and improved, so a dump trailer is def a step up, i suggest you buggit in a nice maul and a few splitting wedges if your guna tackle the big wood


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## minifly3 (Feb 20, 2012)

dts99 said:


> i cut on a 2 saw plan for almost 2 years, 020t and a 346, i had a 16" and a 20" for the 346, i cut big stuff too, cut it all into manageble pieces and hand trucked it on to my flat bed trailer, it was work but i made money and improved, so a dump trailer is def a step up, i suggest you buggit in a nice maul and a few splitting wedges if your guna tackle the big wood



Maul and Splitting Wedges are in the budget// Tractor & Flatbed trailer i have access to as needed for a small rental fee (Basically put gas in it)


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## newsawtooth (Feb 20, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Here's the truck and chipper.... and my poodle... ya gotta factor that in your budget too



The Poodles, man they are creepy smart. If I could get opposable thumbs on one, I would never need a groundman again.


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## Zale (Feb 20, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Bought my first chipper for 6 gs and put two into it along with some hours. Someone had dropped a log on it..... needed a little work. I built my first truck for 13000 that leaves four grand for the rest. Make it count! The five grand in the bank is for printing flyers, paying insurance, and gas. Like I said, it's the minimum.
> 
> Here's the truck and chipper.... and my poodle... ya gotta factor that in your budget too



Thats pretty sick using your dog as a wheel choke.:msp_mad:


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## tree md (Feb 20, 2012)

A couple of years ago I was dead wooding a large Oak for my neighbors and had my dog with me. When I shot my line into the tree the throw bag came down and landed in the shrubbery around the tree. My dog went nuts. He thought there was something in there. So I sat and messed with him for about 5 minutes pulling the throw bag up and down. I had him jumping in the air after it. Had to calm him down so I could put it away before he caught it. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## MackenzieTree (Feb 20, 2012)

Everyones gotta start somewhere hauling brush sucks i did it just up intill resently, but haven a chipper intstead of the trailer loadedin brush is almost gonna pay for itself in time, and brush takes up so much more room, more time and more trips back and forth, plus chips are easier to get rid of brush i had to sometimes pay to get rid of!! two saw plan will get u buy i have a 201t with a 14" bar and a 362 with a 25" bar and i dont feel under equiped allthough i do want one more soon


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## formationrx (Feb 20, 2012)

*to op*

do yourself a favor....throw that ####### paper away and go be an accountant or something....


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## ROPECLIMBER (Feb 21, 2012)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Bought my first chipper for 6 gs and put two into it along with some hours. Someone had dropped a log on it..... needed a little work. I built my first truck for 13000 that leaves four grand for the rest. Make it count! The five grand in the bank is for printing flyers, paying insurance, and gas. Like I said, it's the minimum.
> 
> Here's the truck and chipper.... and my poodle... ya gotta factor that in your budget too



PatriotTree, how do you like the 1000xl I have never run one, but listening to the you tube videos it seemed pretty good, some sounded a little vibrating but the one video from poland looked like it has a good duty cycle, I have been wanting to up grade to a hydralic feed, currently have a '87 verrmeer 1600 glove destroyer,Pulling it with a 4cyl mitz fuso no power and some times with a heavy load have to have the helper take the chipper to the yard,while i bobtail the truck to the dump, so i have to stay around the 4-4500lb range so was looking for the bc1000xl and the bandit 90xl too, found a bandit 65xl with wisconsin for 4500 in dallas, but the 1600 does light brush fast just beats you to death, it puts 2- 3, 16 foot trailers of brush in my fuso in like 30 minutes tops most trim jobs I have the whole front curb neatly stacked and chip and rake and blow in 30 minutes or so, I halled for years on a 16 ft trailer with 4 ft sides and a large cedar log bolted to 2 chains and used another chain hooked to them to a wheel loader tire full of cement with a cable loop in it at Gardenville for a self pull off, hard on the trucks, now I only pay for the logs and if it is oak mesquite,pecan I dont dump logs, and they take the chips, or in my case shredds for free,
anyway I got the chipper and for the first month hand unloaded my 3/4 ton with flip up side boards then someone stole my grain scoop and 2 digging forks out of back of my truck and I built a dump hoist that week end after "hand" unloading, the 3/4 ton, was less haul off than the trailer so next I found the Mitz fuso and built the subframe dump off of an old 72 c50 that I scraped for the hoist,View attachment 225271
View attachment 225272
bought the dry box at junk yard and the set it have an old trees inc bed with removable top that will go on there eventually, 
Paul


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