# Frozen wood?



## sachsmo (Jan 2, 2010)

Anyone do milling in the winter? I would guess frozen wood could equal quick chain dulling. Is this just a fair weather sport?


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## lmbeachy (Jan 2, 2010)

Frozen wood? Man howabout my finger and toes. The chain I can sharpen but it takes awhile for me to warm up. Have a blest day. Lester


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 2, 2010)

I mill in the winter... A friend came over and said she needed some 2x6's, some 5/4 lumber, and also some thin "stake material" to hold visqueen down on her greenhouses. Anyway, i rolled a big pine on the bunks and sawed out what she wanted.

















Best part is, she came over and helped me!

Rob


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## sachsmo (Jan 2, 2010)

lmbeachy said:


> Frozen wood? Man howabout my finger and toes. The chain I can sharpen but it takes awhile for me to warm up. Have a blest day. Lester





Have always been a Winter person, Too many bugs and greenery(not to mention the HEAT) to contend with in the Spring/Summer. You can only strip off so much clothing, and if you're busting tail it seems much warmer out! 

I used to work construction in Northern WI, The worst times were first thing in the morning, then after lunch.



God bless


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## sachsmo (Jan 2, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I mill in the winter...





Man Rob,



You have the set-up. How does the frozen wood effect your production? Any tricks of the trade?

I can only hope to someday have a band mill, and a way to skid/lift logs.


Thanks, Mo


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 2, 2010)

mobetter said:


> Man Rob,
> You have the set-up. How does the frozen wood effect your production? Any tricks of the trade?
> 
> I can only hope to someday have a band mill, and a way to skid/lift logs.
> ...



You don't need big equipment to deal with logs, but it is a lot faster and easier if you do. Save your money and buy used. There's lots of good used tractors and bandmills forsale.






Sawing frozen logs isn't a big deal, but sawing half frozen logs IS more dificult. You just have to pay attention to your speed, and band sharpness. You can buy bands made for frozen logs, but i just use my std. all around band, for all of my milling.






And if you do, you will end up with some nice lumber!






Rob


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## sachsmo (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks Rob,

My big dream is to build an Timber Framed home for me and the Missus.


Something smaller, to keep the taxman at bay.

I have the land, then we could sell off the big place for our retirement fund.

Doing all the timbers with a chainsaw mill might take me a long time.

But I've always said, "I have more time than money" 


Keep up the good work, 

Happy New Year!


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 7, 2010)

I started out as a CSM'er, and it was just too slow and too much work for me. There's no question that you can turn out good lumber with one though.

I'd pencil it out though, because by the time you buy a big power head, and everything you will end up with to CSM, you are 3/4th the way to a Norwood Lumberlite 24. Also, when your done or tired of milling, the band mill has excelent resale. But, you will need to work very hard to get a decent $$ recovery on your CSM tools. Also, the LL24 barely sips fuel, is quiet and waste less of the log to sawdust.

Anyway, it's something to think about.

Rob


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## gemniii (Jan 7, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I started out as a CSM'er, and it was just too slow and too much work for me. There's no question that you can turn out good lumber with one though.
> 
> I'd pencil it out though, because by the time you buy a big power head, and everything you will end up with to CSM, you are 3/4th the way to a Norwood Lumberlite 24. Also, when your done or tired of milling, the band mill has excelent resale. But, you will need to work very hard to get a decent $$ recovery on your CSM tools. Also, the LL24 barely sips fuel, is quiet and waste less of the log to sawdust.
> 
> ...



CSM seems to me one small step on the way to a bandsaw. A "big" powerhead (100CC+) is not required, I'm using a 62CC and PLAN on getting a 90CC (MS660 or similar). But just to cut occasional trees over 30" DBH even when I get a bandsaw I need a larger powerhead anyways. Can one easily cut trees down w/o a "powerhead"? 

Since the LL24 costs about $3,000, and a NEW 660 plus a Mark III only costs about $1,200 I don't understand the "3/4th the way to a Norwood Lumberlite 24".

Do you run an LL24 setup without using a chainsaw?

To me the "recovery costs" for a CSM would be the cost of the Mark III and a couple of chains, maybe $300 if I threw them in the trash.

I agree that a small mill is well worth while, but I view a powerhead as being required anyways, thus the cost of the CSM is minor, plus it will come iin handy if you get logs bigger than you 24" mill.


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## gr8scott72 (Jan 7, 2010)

gemniii said:


> CSM seems to me one small step on the way to a bandsaw. A "big" powerhead (100CC+) is not required, I'm using a 62CC and PLAN on getting a 90CC (MS660 or similar). But just to cut occasional trees over 30" DBH even when I get a bandsaw I need a larger powerhead anyways. Can one easily cut trees down w/o a "powerhead"?
> 
> Since the LL24 costs about $3,000, and a NEW 660 plus a Mark III only costs about $1,200 I don't understand the "3/4th the way to a Norwood Lumberlite 24".
> 
> ...



Add a nice big bar, rails, other misc stuff and you'll be way over $1,200 for a csm. I've already spent $1,300 not counting fuel/oil and I already had the saw.

I agree with what you are saying but the money does add up pretty quick.


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 7, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I started out as a CSM'er, and it was just too slow and too much work for me. There's no question that you can turn out good lumber with one though.
> 
> I'd pencil it out though, because by the time you buy a big power head, and everything you will end up with to CSM, you are 3/4th the way to a Norwood Lumberlite 24. Also, when your done or tired of milling, the band mill has excelent resale. But, you will need to work very hard to get a decent $$ recovery on your CSM tools. Also, the LL24 barely sips fuel, is quiet and waste less of the log to sawdust.
> 
> ...



Sorry Rob, but I don't agree with you here either. The facts are a chainsaw mill can make excellent financial sense, especially when also looking at ancillary aspects to the band mill, such as a tractor or bobcat to move the logs to the mill, sharpening and setting equipment for the blades, insurance on the mill, etc etc.

Furthermore, the chainsaw mill really appeals to a wider demographic. Lots more folks can afford to get into it and for the part time use it may see its a great option. As a result, its easy to sell them should a person want to trade up to a bandmill or get their money back out fo their investment.


Now, Mo, you were asking about milling in the winter, with a chainsaw mill? Yes it still works, and works fairly well depending on the species you are cutting, some become harder than others when milling. You will find that the frozen wood is harder on your chain, so be prepared to do more sharpening. You will also find that in order to mill frozen wood, you need a razor sharp edge, and therefor you will be sharpening more frequently. Happy milling


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## mtngun (Jan 7, 2010)

Coalsmoke said:


> The facts are a chainsaw mill can make excellent financial sense, especially when also looking at ancillary aspects to the band mill, such as a tractor or bobcat to move the logs to the mill, sharpening and setting equipment for the blades, insurance on the mill, etc etc.
> 
> Furthermore, the chainsaw mill really appeals to a wider demographic. Lots more folks can afford to get into it and for the part time use it may see its a great option. As a result, its easy to sell them should a person want to trade up to a bandmill or get their money back out fo their investment.


Yep, if you buy a used milling saw and maintain it, chances are you can always sell it on ebay for about what you paid to begin with.

That said, if I owned timber, I'd be looking at an entry level bandmill, either used or fabbing one myself. As with CSMs, if you buy a used bandmill and maintain it, chances are you can sell it for about what you paid. Or -- do a little mill-for-hire work on the side and recover the cost. Either way, it's essentially "free" in the long run. 

Frozen wood ? I haven't noticed a difference myself, but then I normally mill deadwood that is not particularly moist. I imagine a frozen green tree could be like milling ice.


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## Can8ianTimber (Jan 7, 2010)

I was milling with coalsmoke the other day for a couple hours and we milled a partially frozen log. That was a little more interesting b/c the feed rate was different for the frozen verses nonfrozen. Acording to him (not trying to put words in your mouth if you are reading) it is easier to mill completly frozen logs than partially frozen, just in case you encounter that.


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## 1harlowr (Jan 7, 2010)

Maybe a CSM isn't 3/4 of a bandsaw mill, but it could be close to 1/2. If you go cheap on a CSM maybe you could get it lower than that. TRying to sell lumber from a CSM, what's your final hourly cost for a board foot compared to a CSM, 1/10th???


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## Sawyer Rob (Jan 7, 2010)

What i find interesting is, when we talk CSM's, i keep hearing that all we need is an "Alaskan", and a "power head".

YET, when anyone mentions bandsaw, then we talk "bandmill", "chainsaw", "sharpening equipment", "tractor", "insurance" and the list goes on...

My brother started with a CHEAP bandmill, and set it on the ground. He pulled the logs close to the mill with his pickup, (and sometimes with an old beater car) and rolled them on with a canthook. He sharpened the bands by hand. He had a very mininum of equipment, and sawed out an entire whole building in no time.

There are choises here, go mininum or go with accessories, no matter what way you mill. Either way, you just don't "need" all those accessories, it will just take you longer to get the job done.

My point is, i read this page here all the time, and most of the CSM's here have WAAAAAY more than "a" power head and an Alaskan!

Rob


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## deeker (Jan 7, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> What i find interesting is, when we talk CSM's, i keep hearing that all we need is an "Alaskan", and a "power head".
> 
> YET, when anyone mentions bandsaw, then we talk "bandmill", "chainsaw", "sharpening equipment", "tractor", "insurance" and the list goes on...
> 
> ...



:agree2:

They would even be huge improvments on the Logosol M7.

Few run the original w/o add ons.


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## gr8scott72 (Jan 7, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> What i find interesting is, when we talk CSM's, i keep hearing that all we need is an "Alaskan", and a "power head".
> 
> My point is, i read this page here all the time, and most of the CSM's here have WAAAAAY more than "a" power head and an Alaskan!
> 
> Rob



That is why I commented. I just started with a CSM and already have receipts for over $1300 NOT including the saw.


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## redprospector (Jan 7, 2010)

Most would be surprised at how little the investment in sharpening equipment has to be...................If you use your imagination.
I built my band mill, so that proves I'm a tight wad.
I built my first setter from scrap iron, and a $11 dial indicator from HF. I used it for several years, but finally upgraded to a Cooks manual setter because it is faster.
My grinder I built out of scrap iron, and a Black & Decker 6" bench grinder, and a 3/8" thick grinding wheel. I'm still using it, once you get the hang of it it does about as good as anything else.
Back then I loaded the mill with a 1500 lb winch I got for $89 at Wally World, the kind that hooks over your trailer ball. I skidded with my pickup. That is a little hard on trucks though.
But anyway, to get started it really doesn't take that much, if you use your imagination. 

Andy


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## gemniii (Jan 7, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> What i find interesting is, when we talk CSM's, i keep hearing that all we need is an "Alaskan", and a "power head".


I was only using the term "power head" because you used it first. I would normally call it a chain saw.


Sawyer Rob said:


> YET, when anyone mentions bandsaw, then we talk "bandmill", "chainsaw", "sharpening equipment", "tractor", "insurance" and the list goes on...
> My brother started with a CHEAP bandmill, and set it on the ground. He pulled the logs close to the mill with his pickup, (and sometimes with an old beater car) and rolled them on with a canthook. He sharpened the bands by hand. He had a very mininum of equipment, and sawed out an entire whole building in no time.


If you want to operate a bandmill without a chainsaw I'm sure it can be done. 
I'm almost finished milling up the tree in the attached picture (I don't work often or long). 
The tree had to come down, and the choices were 
Cut it up and take it to the dump.
Cut it up for firewood
Or cut it the the longways for lumber (I need shelves).
Cost estimates for a tree service were way over $1,000 for removal.

Well I'm a govt. employee and bureaucrats cut red tape lengthwise. I've gotten about 20 boards, most about 20" x 60", some 1", some 2" thick. All I've used above and beyond what of what I would have used just to cut it up for the dump or firewood were:
[email protected] Mark III - $200
[email protected] 28"bar - $80
[email protected] 28" chain - $18
2 2x4's - ?10
and probably a few more gallons of liquids than I would have used just cutting it up for firewood.
I didn't have to use a tractor or truck or car I just milled it where it lay. I've stacked and sticked the lumber by my basement door, and after it dries for a year or so I'll cut it down a bit more and maybe plane it.
If I had ANY idea how easy it was I would have bought an Alaskan decades ago.


Sawyer Rob said:


> There are choises here, go mininum or go with accessories, no matter what way you mill. Either way, you just don't "need" all those accessories, it will just take you longer to get the job done.
> 
> 
> My point is, i read this page here all the time, and most of the CSM's here have WAAAAAY more than "a" power head and an Alaskan!
> ...


After reading this forum for a while I've found that almost all bandsaw users, Ripsaw excepted, REQUIRE a "prime mover", be it a mule, an ATV, a tractor or a beater car
but few people take that into the cost of the operation.

The only "accessories" that might have sped up my "job" would have been some rails. But perusing the forum I don't understand the comment 


> "most of the CSM's here have WAAAAAY more than "a" power head and an Alaskan!"


 unless you are including chains and filing equipment


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## huskyhank (Jan 7, 2010)

Being a long time tool user, I have lots of tools so I didn't buy much more than a saw and an Alaskan when I started. I do have more than one chainsaw but not much other "milling only" tools I've bought for milling. Chainsaw mills --CAN-- be very cheap to get into or you can spend lots. Its your pick.

When my 3120 gets here I'll have another chainsaw for milling. But considering that my old saw was bought in 1983 along with my Alaskan I'd say I got my money's worth out of it. And its still perfectly as good as when I bought it. I just -want- a bigger saw.

I might look at the new Norwood band mill if money frees up. It seems like a very nice machine. But I'd still keep all my other stuff too. A CSM will do some things that a bandmill won't do.

Sell wood from a CSM? 
Man, I can't imagine that - the work is too hard!!
I have to make something from it first - then sell it.


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## gemniii (Jan 7, 2010)

gr8scott72 said:


> That is why I commented. I just started with a CSM and already have receipts for over $1300 NOT including the saw.


What type of stuff are you buying?
Beyond some fancy rails, and a jack I wouldn't want to be packing anything else in to use an Alaskan that I wouldn't be using just to cut a tree down. 
Maybe a peavey.


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## TraditionalTool (Jan 7, 2010)

Drop a frozen log and it will shatter.

I dropped one last week, but luckily we're not freezing out here in Cali., and I only dropped it about a foot.


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## rarefish383 (Jan 8, 2010)

The way I see it a CSM and a band mill are 2 different tools to do 2 different jobs and shouldn't be pitted against one an other. Of course there's overlap. In my wildest dreams I can't imagine trying to do production, sales work with a CSM. On the other hand you can't carry your band mill back in the woods for one special log, Joe.


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 8, 2010)

rarefish383 said:


> The way I see it a CSM and a band mill are 2 different tools to do 2 different jobs and shouldn't be pitted against one an other. Of course there's overlap. In my wildest dreams I can't imagine trying to do production, sales work with a CSM. On the other hand you can't carry your band mill back in the woods for one special log, Joe.



I started off doing production with a CSM, it is feasible, if you have the right higher end markets, although I suppose that could be said then that it wasn't so much production as custom order. I agree though that there is a lot of work and markets that a bandmill will be able to expose a sawyer to.


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## billstuewe (Jan 8, 2010)

This is waaaay of topic but, Coalsmoke, I went to your website and saw your tractor and request for a counterweight idea. Here is mine: It consists of a 4ft. piece of 12" I-beam with the top made out of light 1/8" steel plate (ends) and bullwire (sides) and the 3-pt hitch attachments. I made it to carry tools but discovered afterwords that four 5-gallon buckets fit in it nicely so I filled the buckets with concrete--stuck some re-bar handles into the concrete and presto--the weighted backend holds the heavest front loader full that I have encountered. I can take the buckets out and it works great to carry the tools. And it has a hitch on the back too for moving trailers.







Now closer to topic--There was a little weather pop up on your site that said you were at 41ºF, Well my wood is not frozen yet but we are at 23ºF with a predicted low of 15º tonight and I am in CENTRAL TEXAS. What did you do--send it all down here!!!!


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 8, 2010)

Bill, I really like that carry all you made for the tractor. I would like to make something like that and put another 650lbs of plate on it. Right now I am using a 750lb piece of Spruce log, it works ok, but it is hard to carry saws or pull anything with the back of the tractor with the counterweight on it. I've saved a photo of your carry-all as an upcoming project.

Now, as for this weather, you can keep it, its gone all wet and warm up here. We're all turned around backwards. A few weeks ago it was 10*F out here, and now a few weeks later into winter its reaching upwards of 55*F. It must be because we're hosting the winter olympics this year


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## Kicker_92 (Jan 8, 2010)

Coalsmoke said:


> Bill, I really like that carry all you made for the tractor. I would like to make something like that and put another 650lbs of plate on it....
> 
> ...Now, as for this weather, you can keep it, its gone all wet and warm up here. We're all turned around backwards. A few weeks ago it was 10*F out here, and now a few weeks later into winter its reaching upwards of 55*F.



When you add extra weight on the back like that, does it tend to sink a lot easier in soft ground?

I'm liking the above freezing temperature here, but a bit of sun would sure help!


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 8, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> When you add extra weight on the back like that, does it tend to sink a lot easier in soft ground?
> 
> I'm liking the above freezing temperature here, but a bit of sun would sure help!



I agree with you about the "AWOL" sun. All this rain is sure a pain in the neck.

As for the tractor weight, its all relative. The more weight on those tires the easier they will sink, but, my tractor is around 8,000lbs with ballast, then figure the loader with log forks will be another 1,000 lbs, and put 2,500lbs of wood on the forks. At this point, the tractor is sitting around 11,5000lbs combined, so the extra 750 lbs of counterweight (which is only 6% of total weight) will push the total weight up around the 12,250 point, but without it, the traction and stability of the tractor suffers. I find with the ballast and counterweight I have on it now, I will tip with around 3,400 - 3,500lbs on the forks, which is my comfortable maximum I want that front axle to have to deal with.


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## BobL (Jan 8, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> My point is, i read this page here all the time, and most of the CSM's here have WAAAAAY more than "a" power head and an Alaskan!



I agree, try 8 power heads, 12+ bars, 2 alaskans and a beam mill. Plus cant hooks log lifters, 3 sets of log rails etc.

I'd probably have something like a Lucas if my primary issue wasn't space. I have logs and lumber located over a distance of 300 miles across the state, but I want to be able to locate all of my milling gear at home - a long narrow inner city 1/6th of an acre. The reason for this is so I can work on and maintain the gear in the evenings after work. We only have space for 2 vehicles at the front of our house and do not have vehicular access to the back. I don't even have enough space to store a trailer let alone a mill.


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## billstuewe (Jan 8, 2010)

BobL, your problem is solved! There is 15 acres of nice semi-wooded land for sale next to mine. I am praying for a fellow woodworker to buy it. All of your stuff will fit nicely, My brother builds metal buildings and will be glad to fix you up with a barn to store it all--and you build your dream home on it. No restrictions that I am aware of except you must be very nice to your neighbor to the south. :greenchainsaw:


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## Backwoods (Jan 8, 2010)

My mill cost 250 times what my milling saw cost and if you add all of my chainsaw stuff verse the sawmill stuff it comes out to about it comes out to about 45 times as much. I bought my first real chainsaw after buying the mill and support equipment, which by the way I could use plenty of extras beyond what I have. The chainsaw mill has a small nitch in what I do but it still pays for its self. By the way, I do park the mill along side the log or log deck and the multiple pee-vees move most any log that I can put on the mill as long as there is a strong back attached to each of the handles.


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## BobL (Jan 9, 2010)

billstuewe said:


> BobL, your problem is solved! There is 15 acres of nice semi-wooded land for sale next to mine. I am praying for a fellow woodworker to buy it. All of your stuff will fit nicely, My brother builds metal buildings and will be glad to fix you up with a barn to store it all--and you build your dream home on it. No restrictions that I am aware of except you must be very nice to your neighbor to the south. :greenchainsaw:



Sounds ideal, but transporting all the logs I have available to mill to TX could get rather pricey.


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## mwrunt (Jan 9, 2010)

BobL said:


> Sounds ideal, but transporting all the logs I have available to mill to TX could get rather pricey.



bob i have seen the work you do you could fasten all the logs together and make a large raft or a small barge and then with all ther milled bourds a paddle wheel that is driven buy several chain saw powerheads and your on your way to north america with all your belongings


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## sachsmo (Jan 9, 2010)

Sorry this had to get into a peeing match between CSM and band mills.

I would love to build a band mill, but you have to start somewhere.

I believe an Alaskan type mill will let you know if you would like to step up to a real band mill.


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## gr8scott72 (Jan 9, 2010)

mobetter said:


> I believe an Alaskan type mill will let you know if you would like to step up to a real band mill.



That's exactly what it did for me. I want a band mill so bad now I can taste it.


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## Sledcrazzy (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok this might get some of you guys going but a band mill is in my opinion not a step up from a chain saw mill. I grew up running AK mills, with 090 ans 070 power. Many 1000- 1200 bf days with 3 people. We made the mistake of buying a band mill, and a expensive auto sharpener and never got more than 500 bf and alot of frustration. 

We then got a 8" Lucas and it is twice the machine of the band mill, i can cut 2000 bf a day by myself and over 5000 with a good swamper. The wood can be frozen, dead, or full of knots and it makes no difference. I do look back on the days with the AK mill with fondness and we never did kill a 090, they are one tough saw.


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## Coalsmoke (Jan 12, 2010)

Sledcrazzy said:


> Ok this might get some of you guys going but a band mill is in my opinion not a step up from a chain saw mill. I grew up running AK mills, with 090 ans 070 power. Many 1000- 1200 bf days with 3 people. We made the mistake of buying a band mill, and a expensive auto sharpener and never got more than 500 bf and alot of frustration.
> 
> We then got a 8" Lucas and it is twice the machine of the band mill, i can cut 2000 bf a day by myself and over 5000 with a good swamper. The wood can be frozen, dead, or full of knots and it makes no difference. I do look back on the days with the AK mill with fondness and we never did kill a 090, they are one tough saw.



Who made the bandmill you bought?


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## Sledcrazzy (Jan 12, 2010)

The band mill was a wood miser that was on a trailer and was all hydraulic.
Not sure what model or anything but what a piece of junk.


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## rmount (Jan 12, 2010)

Bandsaw mill vs. CSM are definately two different animals. Worked with my neighbour on his bandsawmill for quite a few years, still have acess to it if I ever need a lot of lumber. Bought myself a Logosol M7 as a retirement present and it is ideal for cutting enough material for the odd small job. Biggest project in the past couple of years has been about 550 BF of 1" pine for our daughter. Its great for salvaging those small softwoods that have to come down for whatever reason - end up with two 2x4s and a pile of sawdust but I have fun doing it and the 2x4s will get used somewhere.


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## Backwoods (Jan 12, 2010)

Ideally, I would like to add a bigger Alaska style mill, mine is old and slow, a swing mill, and a smaller bandmill that I can lay out some long tracks for, to go along with my bandmill. As they each have there place.


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