# Stihl vs Tsumura Bars



## merkel (Jul 11, 2015)

Curious at to everyone's thoughts on the quality difference between the Stihl and Tsumura bars. No have an 036 Pro I am interested in putting a new 20" bar. Right now I am running a ES with 3/8x.063 chain. Plan on using the same chain specs. Any thoughts would be great.


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## treesmith (Jul 11, 2015)

Ive got a 20" and 25" tsumura in 3/8 .063, also run ES bars in same size, Tsumura quality looks good and I'll buy them again


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## Justsaws (Jul 11, 2015)

I have never had a Tsumura replaceable sprocket tip bar that was not a top notch bar. Usually use them as the standard which others are judged against. I have not purchased any new in the last couple of years so hopefully they are still excellent bars.

Tsumura hardtip bars were also excellent.

Stihl bars are what I would consider the industry standard and compare them to the upper end of the Oregon line up.
Would rather have a Stihl light weight than the Oregon but would not pay extra for either.

Have never purchased a new Stihl or Oregon bar that was not new old stock but own lots of both in barely used condition, perks of collecting saws.

Currently using all Oregon and Stihl bars, thinning the herd through use and abuse.


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## fordf150 (Jul 12, 2015)

Here is my ranking of bar quality on the ones I have used. From worst to best. Oregon power match, Stihl ES, tsumura is a couple steps above the stihl es bars... total super(Tsumura), cannon(I have one for my saw but haven't put this one to use yet so from their reputation only I am putting it above the Tsumura)


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## mdavlee (Jul 12, 2015)

The only reason to rank cannon above tsumura is the ease of replacement tips.


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## merkel (Jul 13, 2015)

Tsumura it is. Now I just Ned to decide on the 18" or 20".


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## NWCoaster (Jul 13, 2015)

IMO - 20"


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## Full Chisel (Jul 13, 2015)

What's wrong with your ES bar?


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## merkel (Jul 13, 2015)

Full Chisel said:


> What's wrong with your ES bar?


I think it's burnt up. Nose sprocket runs fine and the chain runs smoothly but where the metal is where the chain slides is a little rough. The mental seems to have peeled back about 1/64th. Figured I would just get a new one and toss the other.


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## Full Chisel (Jul 13, 2015)

merkel said:


> I think it's burnt up. Nose sprocket runs fine and the chain runs smoothly but where the metal is where the chain slides is a little rough. The mental seems to have peeled back about 1/64th. Figured I would just get a new one and toss the other.



Sounds to me like the bar is fine and just needs dressed. Heck of a lot cheaper than a new Tsumura...


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## Moonshiner180 (Jul 13, 2015)

Blasphemy! Any excuse to upgrade means its a necessity!


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## weedkilla (Jul 13, 2015)

Moonshiner180 said:


> Blasphemy! Any excuse to upgrade means its a necessity!


Well it's time to buy a linishing belt and disc sander setup for his grinder. That and a little hand held bar dresser.

Tool buying is nearly as fun as saw upgrades.


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## Moonshiner180 (Jul 13, 2015)

Well, if the money is there, there is always the "both" option, if not then it's probably better to have the equipment to maintain what you have, as you stated.


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## merkel (Jul 13, 2015)

I don't use a saw for a living so buying a new bar is more fun. No plans on dressing her up either.


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## Full Chisel (Jul 13, 2015)

merkel said:


> I don't use a saw for a living so buying a new bar is more fun. No plans on dressing her up either.



You'll fit right in around here...


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## weedkilla (Jul 13, 2015)

merkel said:


> I don't use a saw for a living so buying a new bar is more fun. No plans on dressing her up either.


Well just keep using it until cannon release their lightweight bar and you can be the first to have one. 
You might want to knock that burr off the outside with a few swipes with a flat file, if that's not too excessive.


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Well just keep using it until cannon release their lightweight bar and you can be the first to have one.
> You might want to knock that burr off the outside with a few swipes with a flat file, if that's not too excessive.


Can easily knock the burr off but plan on tossing it or just putting it aside for a rainy day. On the Cannon.....to a non professional I wouldn't see the benefit of spending the extra money.


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## Full Chisel (Jul 14, 2015)

You should toss that bar in the mail and send it to me. I'll take care of it properly and you can waste money on a new expensive bar.


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

Full Chisel said:


> You should toss that bar in the mail and send it to me. I'll take care of it properly and you can waste money on a new expensive bar.


Based on your signature you do not have a Stihl. The ES would be sad among the mean Husky's


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## weedkilla (Jul 14, 2015)

merkel said:


> Can easily knock the burr off but plan on tossing it or just putting it aside for a rainy day. On the Cannon.....to a non professional I wouldn't see the benefit of spending the extra money.


Seriously - that bar is about a quarter of the way through its life. 
I can't see the benefit of spending the extra money on a new bar.


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

Yes, seriously I am getting a new bar since to me it's completed its lifecycle. I guess everyone is different though.


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## Deets066 (Jul 14, 2015)

I dress my bars with a 6" grinder and an 80 grit sanding/flapper wheel, there is a lot of life to be had in them bars


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## Moonshiner180 (Jul 14, 2015)

They should have titanium bars and chains, for those who prefer spending money instead of time. On the other hand, if its in the budget for a new bar, and you dont feel like f---n with it, so be it! It happens, we've all been there.. We should not judge our less easily motivated brethren! After all if we wanted to do manual labor we wouldnt have chainsaws, would we?  Might as well buy a new chain as well for when you don't feel like sharpening you have a spare ready .


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## KenJax Tree (Jul 14, 2015)

Husqvarna and GB did or still do make a titanium bar.


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## Moonshiner180 (Jul 14, 2015)

You just had to burst my bubble


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## fordf150 (Jul 14, 2015)

I usually dress a bar once then it's into the scrap bin for me


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## redoakneck (Jul 14, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Husqvarna and GB did or still do make a titanium bar.


The GB titanium bars are pretty heavy, not sure how much light weight titanium is in them??


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## gunnusmc03 (Jul 14, 2015)

GB Ti bars have a tiny amount of Ti alloy mixed in. They aren't light weight by any means.


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## weedkilla (Jul 14, 2015)

Maybe I'm the tightarse. I keep them going until the rails are that flogged out it won't cut straight, or it won't keep a chain on the bar. Or if it's a laminated bar the nose fails.


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

Out of curiosity......what does a worn clutch drum look like? I am thinking of replacing mine while I am at it. I have plenty of chain but do need to sharpen then though. If only I had any skill at it


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## gunnusmc03 (Jul 14, 2015)

It'll have a huge friggin groove worn inside. If the groove is 1/16th or more time to replace it.


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

Thx! I guess a new drummer needed as well now.


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

Is there a better brand than the Stihl marked clutch drum? My Stihl one seemed soft or at least that's what I feel. Thoughts and mine is a 7 tooth for 3/8 chain.


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## gunnusmc03 (Jul 14, 2015)

Are you talking about the clutch drum or the rim sprocket?


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## merkel (Jul 14, 2015)

gunnusmc03 said:


> Are you talking about the clutch drum or the rim sprocket?


The drum with the 7 teeth on it.


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## fordf150 (Jul 14, 2015)

You have rim drive or spur?


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## gunnusmc03 (Jul 14, 2015)

Sounds like he's got a spur drum


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## fordf150 (Jul 14, 2015)

gunnusmc03 said:


> Sounds like he's got a spur drum


That's what I thought but 036pro should be a rim


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## merkel (Jul 15, 2015)

I converted it to spur years back and when I did it went to 3/8 x .063 chain.


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## redbull660 (Jul 15, 2015)

I compared them all and posted the times, temps etc etc. See what ya think...

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...parison-stihl-cannon-tsumura-sugihara.276432/


did 20" bars as well on a 361.... same link above scroll down to like post 10 or 12 .


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## fordf150 (Jul 15, 2015)

merkel said:


> I converted it to spur years back and when I did it went to 3/8 x .063 chain.


switch back to a rim drive drum. Same cost to buy initially and when a rim is worn out it is $5 to replace instead of another $20 drum.


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## gunnusmc03 (Jul 15, 2015)

And if you're running a rim drive you're can also switch rims and try different tooth rims.


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## merkel (Jul 15, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> switch back to a rim drive drum. Same cost to buy initially and when a rim is worn out it is $5 to replace instead of another $20 drum.


What do the larger saws run? Spur or rim?


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## merkel (Jul 16, 2015)

Ok.....after some research I will put the rim back on but have a few questions. I have the original Stihl rim drum but need to change my rim to the new chain which is 3/8 x .063. Will all the rims be 7 tooth and if not what tooth would be best? Where can I pick up just the rims and prefer Stihl or if there is a better brand please let me know? This drum uses the same needle bearing as the spur correct?


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## Justsaws (Jul 16, 2015)

Any Stihl dealer should have the rim you are looking for. There are two different sizes of drum splines so you should take the drum with you to the dealer. They should have Stihl branded rims which are fine as well as Oregon.

The rims are availible in many different configurations so tell them what you are looking for and show them the drum you have.

The larger upgraded kit uses a different bearing and rim than the spur, at least from what I have seen.

The original drum/hub used a smaller bearing and rim spline and was replaced with a larger bearing that used a larger spline. It was a kit, bearing, hub and rim. Both rims were 3/8 x 7 but the spline is larger on the upgraded hub and rim to accommodate the lager bearing.


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## merkel (Jul 16, 2015)

Justsaws said:


> Any Stihl dealer should have the rim you are looking for. There are two different sizes of drum splines so you should take the drum with you to the dealer. They should have Stihl branded rims which are fine as well as Oregon.
> 
> The rims are availible in many different configurations so tell them what you are looking for and show them the drum you have.
> 
> ...



I would like the upgrade kit for sure. Does a 3/8 rim fit the .050 and the.063 or do I need to spec my .063? Any part numbers would be great if available.


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## Justsaws (Jul 16, 2015)

All three of the common gauges(.050, .058, .063)of 3/8 pitch chain will fit a 3/8 rim.

Do not have the part numbers.

Do a search for 034 Super clutch drum upgrade, good thread with pictures and part numbers.

Edited for stupidness.


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## weedkilla (Jul 16, 2015)

Justsaws said:


> All three of the common gauges(.325, .3/8, .404) of 3/8 pitch chain will fit a 3/8 rim.
> 
> Do not have the part numbers.
> 
> Do a search for 034 Super clutch drum upgrade, good thread with pictures and part numbers.


Think this is a typo.

All three gauges of 3/8 chain - .050, .058, and .063, fit the same 3/8 sprocket

325, 3/8 and 404 need different sprockets.


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## Justsaws (Jul 16, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Think this is a typo.
> 
> All three gauges of 3/8 chain - .050, .058, and .063, fit the same 3/8 sprocket
> 
> 325, 3/8 and 404 need different sprockets.



Whoops, well close enough. Thanks , hopefully the OP has it figured out.


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## gunnusmc03 (Jul 16, 2015)

They're both sprockets.. Rim sprocket and nose sprocket.


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## SawTroll (Jul 16, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Husqvarna and GB did or still do make a titanium bar.


Well, at least GB makes bar that are called "Titanium", but I understand that there actually is no Titanium in the finished bars?

Husky has had some GB bars rebranded for them, but I believe those are the regular Pro Tops (I may be wrong about that though).


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## SawTroll (Jul 16, 2015)

gunnusmc03 said:


> And if you're running a rim drive you're can also switch rims and try different tooth rims.



Yes, but what options exist will depend on the size of the splined portion of the drum. As this is an 036, there is a chance that drum has the mini 7-spline (or small 7-spline if is Oregon ), and that limits the options in 3/8" is 7-pin. If it is a standard (sometimes called large) 7-spline, there are more options.

With a bar as long as 20", only 7-pin makes sense to me on a 036 though - just make sure what you get fit the right spline option.


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## mdavlee (Jul 16, 2015)

SawTroll said:


> Well, at least GB makes bar that are called "Titanium", but I understand that there actually is no Titanium in the finished bars?
> 
> Husky has had some GB bars rebranded for them, but I believe those are the regular Pro Tops (I may be wrong about that though).


I remember seeing something showing makeup of it was less than 1% titanium.


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## psuiewalsh (Jul 16, 2015)

Moonshiner180 said:


> They should have titanium bars and chains, for those who prefer spending money instead of time. On the other hand, if its in the budget for a new bar, and you dont feel like f---n with it, so be it! It happens, we've all been there.. We should not judge our less easily motivated brethren! After all if we wanted to do manual labor we wouldnt have chainsaws, would we?  Might as well buy a new chain as well for when you don't feel like sharpening you have a spare ready .



Technically since stihl bars are painted white I would bet that there is a very small percentage of Titanium in the paint.


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## fearofpavement (Jul 16, 2015)

I consider servicing bars the same as sharpening chain. I knew a guy that never sharpened chains, he spun his own loops and when they got dull, he replaced them with a new one.

A budget bar servicing disk sander can be made by grinding the sides of the teeth off a worn out plywood blade and installing it on a radial arm or table saw. (after gluing a piece of sandpaper to it with rubber cement)


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## SawTroll (Jul 16, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> I remember seeing something showing makeup of it was less than 1% titanium.



What I recall is that a very small amount was used in the rail hardening prosess - but it is quite some time since this was discussed much, and I believe most "info" were just guesses....

Anyway, they aren't light bars - and a bar made of Titanium likely would be useless, except maybe in "fillers".


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## merkel (Jul 16, 2015)

What is the difference between the 361 compared with the 036 Pro? When looking up the upgrade kit for the sprocket/rim/needle bearing I search the 034Super. I guess the 036 and 034 are the same saw in this area?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jul 17, 2015)

would plating the bar or around the nose of the bar and rail with stellite help reduce wear?


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## Justsaws (Jul 17, 2015)

merkel said:


> What is the difference between the 361 compared with the 036 Pro? When looking up the upgrade kit for the sprocket/rim/needle bearing I search the 034Super. I guess the 036 and 034 are the same saw in this area?



The 361 (1135 series)replaced the 360/036/034S/034(1125 series). It uses spring AV and quad port cylinder, it was replaced by the 362 which in a totally different saw as well. Very few parts should be considered inter changeable between the 361 and 1125 series.

The 1125 series saws had many changes to them during the production run such as mufflers, crank construction, air filters/carbs and plastics not to mention piston and cylinders. In most cases the parts can be considered interchangeable within the 1125 series. Mufflers, air filters/carbs and getting plastics to match would be the odd ball stuff and all easily worked around.

The 361(1135)is all alone in terms of most parts.


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## Justsaws (Jul 17, 2015)

It would be pricey and probably really hard on chains. Would not take much of a bend to crack it.


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## mdavlee (Jul 17, 2015)

jakewells said:


> would plating the bar or around the nose of the bar and rail with stellite help reduce wear?


That's how some hard nose bars are. It's good for wear resistance.


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## Ronaldo (Jul 17, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> That's how some hard nose bars are. It's good for wear resistance.


If memory serves the stellite is just on the nose section(where the sprocket is on a roller nose).


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## SawTroll (Jul 17, 2015)

Justsaws said:


> ....
> 
> The 361(1135)is all alone in terms of most parts.



There was in fact a 341 that was mostly the same - but "detuned" a bit, and sold at a lower price. It wasn't offered for sale in the US though, or here in Norway.


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## Matt B (Jul 17, 2015)

Have run 18" Stihl laminated, ES - both small and big sprocket and Tsumura as pictured on my 361.

The Tsumura has worn much better then laminated Stihl and a bit better than the ES. Tsumura in my humble opinion is a better quality, longer lasting bar.

That said I'm currently back on a Stihl laminated bar which I got very cheap and barely used. Strangely enough the trailer still fills with wood...


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## Big_Wood (Jul 17, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> The only reason to rank cannon above tsumura is the ease of replacement tips.



i like how tsumura have kept the same tip since the early 90's though. i got some old 36" tsumura the tips grenaded on and they are the same as all the new bars. cannon tips being the same as oregon really make them to be an easy find. the older 3 rivet oregon/cannon tips are getting a little more scarce but still pretty easy to find if commited. only thing is finding them with rivets. the tsumura tip rivets work good for those older 3 rivet oregon/cannon tips though.



fordf150 said:


> I usually dress a bar once then it's into the scrap bin for me



are you talking laminate? heck i got some oregons, cannons, and tsumura solids i've just been pinching and dressing for years that still work great. foe me what finishes off a bar is usually rail chips or bar tail damage although i have been welding the damaged area's getting even more out of them so what finishes them will likely be the limit of pinching room before cuts get sloppy.


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## Justsaws (Jul 17, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> That's how some hard nose bars are. It's good for wear resistance.



Not typically doing much that bends the bar where the welds are on a hard tip. Having said that I will now probably bend one in the near future. Opening or closing the welded hard tip usually works fairly well but even then it is a risk.


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