# Really disgusted with Kohler....



## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

I have a Husqvarna garden tractor, and it is the workhorse around here. Powered by a Kohler 25hp Command engine. With 10 hours on the engine, it blows a head gasket on the right side. That was back in 04.
I have replaced this head gasket 5 times now, and nobody seems to be able to tell me what is causing it. I have replaced the muffler(tech rep said a plugged muffler could cause a high head pressure, sounded good at the time) checked exhaust temps from one cylinder to the other, both are within 20 degrees of each other.
Now of coarse this engine is long out of warranty. I have plenty of documents to show that this problem started right out of the box, but Kohler refused to do anything about it. This time when the gasket blew the head warped, costing another 150 bucks to replace.
Anyone have any ideas of what could cause this problem? All the local shops are stumped, and I personally havent been able to find anything else that could cause this.
head was checked for warpage each time.
Block was checked each time for warpage.
Oil returns were checked for blockage.
exhaust temps were measured.
muffler replaced as a precaution.
Any other ideas?
Anyone else have to but heads with Kohler on an issue?
I am getting sick of mowing 3 acres with a push mower!Not to mention wood hauling.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 4, 2008)

avalancher said:


> I have a Husqvarna garden tractor, and it is the workhorse around here. Powered by a Kohler 25hp Command engine. With 10 hours on the engine, it blows a head gasket on the right side. That was back in 04.
> I have replaced this head gasket 5 times now, and nobody seems to be able to tell me what is causing it. I have replaced the muffler(tech rep said a plugged muffler could cause a high head pressure, sounded good at the time) checked exhaust temps from one cylinder to the other, both are within 20 degrees of each other.
> Now of coarse this engine is long out of warranty. I have plenty of documents to show that this problem started right out of the box, but Kohler refused to do anything about it. This time when the gasket blew the head warped, costing another 150 bucks to replace.
> Anyone have any ideas of what could cause this problem? All the local shops are stumped, and I personally havent been able to find anything else that could cause this.
> ...



Wow that sounds like a defect I would be ticked at this point.


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## Wood Scrounge (Aug 4, 2008)

that stinks, seems everything is junk now. I will be in the market for a new lawn\garden tractor in the next year and have no clue what is still good. My neighbor has a new John Deere that is complete junk, the big box stores really jacked things up.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 4, 2008)

Wood Scrounge said:


> that stinks, seems everything is junk now. I will be in the market for a new lawn\garden tractor in the next year and have no clue what is still good. My neighbor has a new John Deere that is complete junk, the big box stores really jacked things up.



I will keep overhauling this one. It is kohler but with a cast iron block
and real gears.


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## bore_pig (Aug 4, 2008)

Flawed rod or piston that's causing extra high compression maybe? Do you have any compression numbers from after a rebuild? Do the compression numbers from both cylinders match?


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## danrclem (Aug 4, 2008)

Is there a lemon law for things like this or does that only pertain to automobiles? If there is would it be too late to get this to qualify for it?

What really stinks is that Kohler knows that it was bad and won't do anything about it. I probably wouldn't be worth going to court for though.

I have a 25hp Kohler on a garden tractor which is about four or five years old and is doing fine.


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## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

bore_pig said:


> Flawed rod or piston that's causing extra high compression maybe? Do you have any compression numbers from after a rebuild? Do the compression numbers from both cylinders match?


The compression from both cylinders are within 5 lbs of each other, or at least they were when the problem happened the second time.
I have done a little reading on the net, and it sounds like this is a fairly common problem with this engine. Kohler said that they did have a problem with faulty head bolts a few years before mine was built, but according to them the problem was resolved. 
Yeah right, it was resolved alright. the head bolts have been replaced each and every time the head gasket was replaced, and still the problem continues.
I ventured the question last week if this problem cant be resolved, how about sending me new engine, i would swap them out and send the engine back to them at my cost.
Their reply was"well, that isnt really a reasonable request. You have used that engine for 200 hours now."
200 hours on a $2500 engine? At that price, I will have to just get a goat to mow the lawn, cant afford a tractor.:censored:


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## cuttinscott (Aug 4, 2008)

*Nothing New for a command 25*

I have seen this OVER AND OVER and yes Kohler does not want to stand behind it. They will always blame the end user. The issues that engine has since conception are............ Weak valve trains (bent and broken push rods rockers and valve covers leaking) Poor mufflers that would break internally and cause blockage, Lifters that did not bleed down properly, oil puddling on top of pistons after use ~ smoke like hell on restarts, S.A.M. ~ spark advance module it probably your culprit it is throwing the timing off and causing overheating of your engine.

Good Luck you will need it......


Scott


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## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

cuttinscott said:


> I have seen this OVER AND OVER and yes Kohler does not want to stand behind it. They will always blame the end user. The issues that engine has since conception are............ Weak valve trains (bent and broken push rods rockers and valve covers leaking) Poor mufflers that would break internally and cause blockage, Lifters that did not bleed down properly, oil puddling on top of pistons after use ~ smoke like hell on restarts, S.A.M. ~ spark advance module it probably your culprit it is throwing the timing off and causing overheating of your engine.
> 
> Good Luck you will need it......
> 
> ...


If its the spark advance module, shouldnt it affect both cylinders?
And you are right about the smoke on start up, you would almost think the thing is on fire sometimes when it cranks up, smoke everywhere.
Another thing that really got me about this engine, constant backfire on shutdown. Kohler says to run the engine on 2/3 throttle on shut down. Owners manual neglected to mention this at all. I took the thing back to the dealer the first day because of the backfire and he couldnt figure a thing out. A phone call to Kohler solved that problem, but you would think that they would put that in the owners manual.


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## bore_pig (Aug 4, 2008)

HMMMM.......Electronic spark advance. Good idea. I'm guessing the problem with this SAM could be that there is too much advance. Preignition issue.


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## mga (Aug 4, 2008)

i know it's too late now, but you should have demanded a replacement engine back when it first happened.


but...all is not lost. you could write a letter to your state attorney general and explain the problem you had, in detail, and complain that Kohler has refused to make good on this problem. also include that you discovered that it is a common problem with these engines.

you'd be surprised what a letter could do. besides, what do you have to lose? the worse that could happen is they tell you they can't do anything about it, the best thing is they might look into it and go after Kohler.

worth a try.


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## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

I couldnt find anything in my schematics about a timing control module, and gave the tech line a call at Kohler. Seems that timing is fixed,and only variable by an offset key on the flywheel. According to Kohler timing is fixed at 18 degrees.


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## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

mga said:


> i know it's too late now, but you should have demanded a replacement engine back when it first happened.
> 
> 
> but...all is not lost. you could write a letter to your state attorney general and explain the problem you had, in detail, and complain that Kohler has refused to make good on this problem. also include that you discovered that it is a common problem with these engines.
> ...


According to the dealer and Kohler, the first time could have been a fluke. head wasnt torqued down enough during assembly,etc.
The second time the second shop blamed it on the first shop's faulty repair.we had moved from Alabama to Tennessee.
The third,fourth,fifth time it was out of warranty and Kohler just shrugged their shoulders. Mostly just said that they are happy to help with advise, but no repairs at their cost once warranty is over.
They are just basically doing what everyone else does. Keep passing the buck until the customer gets frustrated and goes away.
I have had several Kohler engines in my life and they always seemed bulletproof, but I gues Kohler is going the way that they all go eventually. Build the cheapest products that they can, assemble them in Mexico, and charge as much as they think they can get away with.


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## Jkebxjunke (Aug 4, 2008)

sounds like there is a case for a class action lawsuit... if its a common problem 

on replacing your mower.... ever think of a zero turn mower?
I had a mtd garden tractor with a 46" cut.. took me almost 10 hours to cut grass around all my buildings yards ect. I bought a toro Z255 62" cut zero turn mower... and now I can cut everything in 4 hours and since it is commercial grade... the spindles turn up faster and you can cut damp to even wet grass with no problem and has made the need for a push mower non-existent and with the use of a little Round-up string trimming is a thing of the past too. when i bought my toro it was $7200 a large garden tractor ( if you call them that) was around $4000 and would have to be replaced in 5 years... my dealer told me that with the use on the toro... it should last 20 years ( I have had it for about 6 now) 
just a thought


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## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

Zero turn? Nope, not for me. I need a tractor. This tractor spends as much time pulling stuff around the yard and the woods as it does mowing lawns. Zero turn isnt much use for pulling loads.


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## Jkebxjunke (Aug 4, 2008)

I forgot to add I use my JD Gator 4x2 for small pulling or one of my tractors (Kubota L2850 with loader, L3430 M6800) for larger loads or the Bobcat S160 for other stuff.. the grapple is great for moving logs:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Black19 (Aug 4, 2008)

I think you are working the tractor a little hard. If funds are there, I would step up to a 30 horse or so Kubota or the like diesel. They can mow, pull, split wood, plow snow, plow a garden, and you can put a loader on it. With proper maintence, it could last you a life time.


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## Mike Van (Aug 4, 2008)

I don't think it's overworked - 200 hours? My JD has 1900 hours on an 18 hp Kawasaki, never had the engine apart.


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## avalancher (Aug 4, 2008)

Black19 said:


> I think you are working the tractor a little hard. If funds are there, I would step up to a 30 horse or so Kubota or the like diesel. They can mow, pull, split wood, plow snow, plow a garden, and you can put a loader on it. With proper maintence, it could last you a life time.



Just out of curiosity, you can tell by this post that I am working my tractor to hard?I dont recall mentioning how much weight I hauled, etc.
If it makes you feel any better, the tractor comes equiped with a 1 7/8 ball mount, is designed to pull 1500lbs, and can be equiped with a bucket loader as well. This is not a riding mower, but designated as a GARDEN TRACTOR.


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## Zackman1801 (Aug 4, 2008)

the tractor should hold up but its not. its most likely a defect of some kind. is it possible that there is something wrong with its cooling system? mabey it gets too hot? really would be hard to diagnose a small part causing big problems without really looking it over. My question is if the dealers looked at it and said they cant figure out the problem why wont the company do anything about it? whats the point of offering a warrantee if they wont honor it?


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## ents (Aug 4, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I will keep overhauling this one. It is kohler but with a cast iron block
> and real gears.



Nothing beats good ole old iron. Love it. Keep it running, beats anyting built today.


Later,


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## Junkfxr (Aug 4, 2008)

I have had 3 different Kohler engines over the past 15 years or so on different pieces of equipment and the best thing that I can say about any of them is that they are junk. If somebody tried to give me one now, I'd have to hit them in the mouth as hard as I could with both fists. I got the same answers from the so called tech line that you have. Probably better off to dig a hole and just bury it, count your losses and move on to another engine brand because it's probably not going to get any better.
P.S. I do have an old cast iron K series Kohler that at least will start sometimes.


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## Patrick62 (Aug 4, 2008)

*Perhaps I got lucky*

My splitter has a 15hp single cylinder Kohler on it.
So far, so good. It runs very well. I was the most engine I could buy for the least $$$.

Something ain't right with your engine. I would be tempted to have a gasket made out of a hunk of "dead soft copper". Machinist should have the stuff on hand.

-Pat


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## hickslawns (Aug 5, 2008)

Is this a "Command" series Kohler engine? If so, bent push rods from lifters that pump up and don't release was a problem. Head gaskets have been problems. I even had bottom end bearings go out of one of them. Replaced it under warranty with much argument. Second one crapped within 6 months but the thing was then out of warranty. Replaced it with a Honda. Kohler does not acknowledge this was a problem engine. I currently have a 2001 model mower with the same engine getting a short block right now. It will be replaced next year with a new mower with anything but a Kohler. I have less than 2000 hours on the 01 model getting a shortblock. It has been on a strict maintenance plan but still went thru 3 head gaskets and 2 sets of lifters/push rods prior to snapping a connecting rod this time. Kohler is putting the nails in their own coffin one upset customer at a time. You would think they would have quit building that engine after the first few years of problems. Good luck.


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## avalancher (Aug 5, 2008)

hickslawns said:


> Is this a "Command" series Kohler engine? If so, bent push rods from lifters that pump up and don't release was a problem. Head gaskets have been problems. I even had bottom end bearings go out of one of them. Replaced it under warranty with much argument. Second one crapped within 6 months but the thing was then out of warranty. Replaced it with a Honda. Kohler does not acknowledge this was a problem engine. I currently have a 2001 model mower with the same engine getting a short block right now. It will be replaced next year with a new mower with anything but a Kohler. I have less than 2000 hours on the 01 model getting a shortblock. It has been on a strict maintenance plan but still went thru 3 head gaskets and 2 sets of lifters/push rods prior to snapping a connecting rod this time. Kohler is putting the nails in their own coffin one upset customer at a time. You would think they would have quit building that engine after the first few years of problems. Good luck.



Yep, this is the Command engine. I got off the phone with the tech rep yesterday, and finally landed a good guy, a guy named Hank. Evidently he is a little bit more up the ladder there so to speak.
He dropped a new head, head gasket kit with new bolts, and a new key for the flywheel that is supposed to retard the timing by 3 degrees into the mail for me.
According to Hank, my engine should have been timed at the factory at 18 degrees, but he admitted that some of them got out of the factory without the offset key which bumped the timing up to 21 degrees.
When the head gasket blows, its common for the head to warp from the heat. My overall distortion was right at .003 which is the max that Kohler recommends. According to the local dealers, that is still good enough and doesnt warrant spending the 300 bucks for a new head, but Hank decided to error on the side of caution and send out a new head. He seems eager to help me with this issue, and even though my engine is long out of warranty he was glad to drop the parts in the mail for me.
I will be keeping my fingers crossed on this one, I am sick of mowing 3 acres with a push mower.


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## Mike Van (Aug 5, 2008)

avalancher - Hank sounds like a #1 man  - I hope it's the answer to all the BS you've had to put up with.


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## Jkebxjunke (Aug 5, 2008)

it sounds like you have to :deadhorse: to try to get them to live up the warranty but that seems the way it is anymore... customer service is almost dead. hope it works out


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## urhstry (Aug 5, 2008)

Tell Hank about our site. Maybe he can help the masses


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## norm8845 (Aug 5, 2008)

avalancher said:


> According to the dealer and Kohler, the first time could have been a fluke. head wasnt torqued down enough during assembly,etc.
> The second time the second shop blamed it on the first shop's faulty repair.we had moved from Alabama to Tennessee.
> The third,fourth,fifth time it was out of warranty and Kohler just shrugged their shoulders. Mostly just said that they are happy to help with advise, but no repairs at their cost once warranty is over.
> They are just basically doing what everyone else does. Keep passing the buck until the customer gets frustrated and goes away.
> I have had several Kohler engines in my life and they always seemed bulletproof, but I gues Kohler is going the way that they all go eventually. Build the cheapest products that they can, assemble them in Mexico, and charge as much as they think they can get away with.


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## omegajim (Aug 5, 2008)

in a related vein, my folks mower (with Kohler engine) had enough problems as well.

1- starter relay cooked, no big deal
2 - fuel pump cooked, replaced, then
3 - fuel pump rod bent, they took that one to the mech.

for a mower with about 200 hours on it, you're not impressing me. Either.


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## Hugenpoet (Aug 6, 2008)

Assuming that you have retained all the documentation regarding the timing and extent of repairs, I would suggest that you go on line and check your State statute regarding upper limits for making a claim in Small Claims Court-usually relatively easy and inexpensive. The courts are much more likely to side with an abused consumer than with a large corporation, particularly because of the obvious fact that this was a defective engine from the very start.


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## avalancher (Aug 6, 2008)

Hugenpoet said:


> Assuming that you have retained all the documentation regarding the timing and extent of repairs, I would suggest that you go on line and check your State statute regarding upper limits for making a claim in Small Claims Court-usually relatively easy and inexpensive. The courts are much more likely to side with an abused consumer than with a large corporation, particularly because of the obvious fact that this was a defective engine from the very start.



The problem with small claims court is you have to file in the state where the defendent lives, not your own state. In small claims court the defendent can not be compelled to travel to your state to defend themselves. I imagine it would be far more costly to travel twice to where Kohler has their headquarters than it would be worth. Once to file, once to appear.
Travel expenses are not a compensable expense in small claims court.
I couldnt even hire an attorney in their state to handle the affair because attorneys are not allowed in small claims court as well. 
The internet and online shopping has brought a raft of complaints to our civil court systems because of this matter, but in reality its really the only way to handle these affairs. Imagine a small mom and pop shop having a website and having to travel all over the states defending themselves because some customer was unhappy with their transaction? it would be maddness, let alone shut down all but the largest companies.
My wife and I run a online craft store, and i hate to think how I would end up flying all over the country because some cranky customer was unhappy with her beads that she bought from us.


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## Hugenpoet (Aug 6, 2008)

avalancher said:


> The problem with small claims court is you have to file in the state where the defendent lives, not your own state. In small claims court the defendent can not be compelled to travel to your state to defend themselves. I imagine it would be far more costly to travel twice to where Kohler has their headquarters than it would be worth. Once to file, once to appear.
> Travel expenses are not a compensable expense in small claims court.
> I couldnt even hire an attorney in their state to handle the affair because attorneys are not allowed in small claims court as well.
> The internet and online shopping has brought a raft of complaints to our civil court systems because of this matter, but in reality its really the only way to handle these affairs. Imagine a small mom and pop shop having a website and having to travel all over the states defending themselves because some customer was unhappy with their transaction? it would be maddness, let alone shut down all but the largest companies.
> My wife and I run a online craft store, and i hate to think how I would end up flying all over the country because some cranky customer was unhappy with her beads that she bought from us.



I would be very surprised if a company as large and diverse as Kohler was not required to be "Licensed to do Business" in your state with the requirement that it have a local agent for service of process and having consented to the jurisdiction of the local courts.


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## Hugenpoet (Aug 6, 2008)

I did a quick search of the Tennessee Secretary of State's records and, as I suggested, found that Kohler, Co. is a registered "Foreign Corporation" in Tennessee with a registered agent in Tennessee. 

Also is a Tennessee listing for Kohler Power Equipment, Co.


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## Black19 (Aug 6, 2008)

avalancher said:


> Just out of curiosity, you can tell by this post that I am working my tractor to hard?I dont recall mentioning how much weight I hauled, etc.
> If it makes you feel any better, the tractor comes equiped with a 1 7/8 ball mount, is designed to pull 1500lbs, and can be equiped with a bucket loader as well. This is not a riding mower, but designated as a GARDEN TRACTOR.




I'm sorry Mr. Avalancher sir. I wasn't picking on your GARDEN TRACTOR, I was just trying to offer another option. I have been through the GARDEN tractor phase and it worked for awhile, it wasn't as productive as a Kubota. It is now in use in my father in laws GARDEN. For the past 2 yrs we have been using a J.D. back hoe for our wood harvesting, works better than the Kubota.

I have been reading here for a year or so and liked what I saw as far as the advice and stories and such. Thought it would be a cool place to hang out. Sorry I hurt your feelings. I will try to not do so again.


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## bore_pig (Aug 6, 2008)

Black19--You have no need to apologize. I thought the same thing. Garden tractors these days are just barely what lawn tractors were 10 years ago.


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## avalancher (Aug 7, 2008)

yep, you are so right, i am severly overworking this little tractor. Yep, its really uncouth to expect a 25 horse tractor to haul a little wood from the woodpile to the house with this trailer. In fact, that little 16 gallon sprayer might be a little rough on it as well. 
i had been considering pulling the 16ft trailer around with it, but its a little tight to haul it around the yard anyway. Guess I better leave that to the truck.
However, this little tractor works great for pulling logs out of the woods. I just attach a long 50 ft chain, back all the way up to the log, and take a run at it. I just hate the part where you hit the end of the chain at full speed, takes a toll on the dental work. But it does move that log a few inches every time, and we all know that is the important part, getting the wood home!
Well, I am sure glad you answered my question about why this engine is blowing a head gasket on one cylinder, I guess it cant handle the strain of the BIG garden trailer.
Guess I will have to go back to the ole wheel barrow method until I can afford a BIG Kubota.
Sure appreciate your sarcasm though Black19! 
Sure you dont work for Kohler?


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## avalancher (Aug 7, 2008)

Hugenpoet said:


> I did a quick search of the Tennessee Secretary of State's records and, as I suggested, found that Kohler, Co. is a registered "Foreign Corporation" in Tennessee with a registered agent in Tennessee.
> 
> Also is a Tennessee listing for Kohler Power Equipment, Co.



Thanks for that point, it was well thought out, and one that I didnt consider. I pulled a reference that I have pertaining to small business law concerns, and you are right. If a business has a presence in a state, they are liable as well as answerable to all local courts and proceedings including small claims court.
It will definetly be on my agenda if all does not go well with the repairs. I have never been one to sue someone just because of their stance on an issue, but what is right is right. I paid a little over 3K for this tractor, and this problem made itself known from the get go. I gave Kohler every chance, and offered to be reasonable. Right now it appears that Hank at Kohler tech support is doing everything in his power to right this problem, and maybe the problem was with the tech support staff,and not the company as a whole.
I will keep you posted as to what comes of all this.


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## omegajim (Aug 7, 2008)

it's not the engine, its the transmission.

In particular, the rise of hydrostatic.

hydrostatic does wonderful things, it allows infinite amount of speeds both forward and reverse.

However, being hydrostatic, it has limits; those limits will be most notable when pulling heavy loads (loads approaching the weight of the mower w/out you on it) for any significant distance. Hydro transmissions weren't built heavy enough on a lawn mower/ tractor to function this way, and usually fail due to overheating. Usually.

Which is why I'm always on the lookout for an old craftsman/whatever that has gears. A mower with a gear drive transmission will allow you to pull much heavier loads without transmission failure. But you have to shift. That is the tradeoff.


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## woodchuck361 (Aug 8, 2008)

Wood Scrounge said:


> that stinks, seems everything is junk now. I will be in the market for a new lawn\garden tractor in the next year and have no clue what is still good. My neighbor has a new John Deere that is complete junk, the big box stores really jacked things up.



What deere model does he have?


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## 04ultra (Aug 8, 2008)

*Kohler has great Golf courses*..  



http://www.destinationkohler.com/golf/golf_index.html





.


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## gtstang462002 (Aug 8, 2008)

avalancher said:


> Thanks for that point, it was well thought out, and one that I didnt consider. I pulled a reference that I have pertaining to small business law concerns, and you are right. If a business has a presence in a state, they are liable as well as answerable to all local courts and proceedings including small claims court.
> It will definetly be on my agenda if all does not go well with the repairs. I have never been one to sue someone just because of their stance on an issue, but what is right is right. I paid a little over 3K for this tractor, and this problem made itself known from the get go. I gave Kohler every chance, and offered to be reasonable. Right now it appears that Hank at Kohler tech support is doing everything in his power to right this problem, and maybe the problem was with the tech support staff,and not the company as a whole.
> I will keep you posted as to what comes of all this.



Did you get his direct number and extension. So that when in 2 weeks the stuff he claimed to ship out hasn't shown up yet you can call him directly and ask where it is?

My only question to them would be why is would the timing being off only affect one cylinder?


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## Barnie (Aug 8, 2008)

Cant you just swap the engine for a better make like a Honda or something


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## avalancher (Aug 8, 2008)

gtstang462002 said:


> Did you get his direct number and extension. So that when in 2 weeks the stuff he claimed to ship out hasn't shown up yet you can call him directly and ask where it is?
> 
> My only question to them would be why is would the timing being off only affect one cylinder?


Believe it or not, the parts showed up yesterday. A new head, gasket kit with head bolts, and the offset flywheel key.
After removing the flywheel cover, we discovered that sure enough it had just a regular key in the flywheel, not an offset one as it should.
I swapped the valves into the new head, installed the new offset key and new head, and ran it last night for about 3 hours. So far everything seems to work just fine. It also for the first time quite the lopping that it has always done at idle. Dealer before said it was common for this engine to do that, now it doesnt. Purrs just fine on idle.
I asked hank the same question about affecting just one cylinder, and his answer seemed reasonable.
He theorized that when the first gasket went, it warped the head enough to make it the weak link. Although the head was within tolerence, it was still the weak link. 
I will be keeping my fingers crossed on this one, but it looks like Hank hit the nail right on the head.


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## avalancher (Aug 8, 2008)

Barnie said:


> Cant you just swap the engine for a better make like a Honda or something


I am sure that I could, but when you consider the cost of these engines, I would be far better off buying a new tractor. The engine alone is in the neighborhood of 2K, I only paid a little over 3K for the whole thing.
I dont know what a Honda would run in this horsepower, but I sure it would be in the same neighborhood as the Kohler.


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## gtstang462002 (Aug 8, 2008)

avalancher said:


> Believe it or not, the parts showed up yesterday. A new head, gasket kit with head bolts, and the offset flywheel key.
> After removing the flywheel cover, we discovered that sure enough it had just a regular key in the flywheel, not an offset one as it should.
> I swapped the valves into the new head, installed the new offset key and new head, and ran it last night for about 3 hours. So far everything seems to work just fine. It also for the first time quite the lopping that it has always done at idle. Dealer before said it was common for this engine to do that, now it doesnt. Purrs just fine on idle.
> I asked hank the same question about affecting just one cylinder, and his answer seemed reasonable.
> ...



The only way to know for sure if that cures is it to take it out and flog on her a little... She holds she is strong, she blows she is gone.


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## jags (Aug 8, 2008)

Avalancher - I sure hope your recent parts swap fix your problem for the long term......but, if you find that you blow another head gasket, I have a suggestion.

From long ago, I had this problem with a single lung Kohler. The fix was: cutting about an 1/8" to 3/16" (or grinding) off of the head bolts. The bolts were not the defective part, but the holes were. The bolts bottomed out, just shy of where they should be. It was enough that the head "seemed" tight, and you could torque the bolts, but it simply didn't put the pressure on the head. Shortening the bolts by a small amount fixed the problem. Just an idea.


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## avalancher (Aug 8, 2008)

jags said:


> Avalancher - I sure hope your recent parts swap fix your problem for the long term......but, if you find that you blow another head gasket, I have a suggestion.
> 
> From long ago, I had this problem with a single lung Kohler. The fix was: cutting about an 1/8" to 3/16" (or grinding) off of the head bolts. The bolts were not the defective part, but the holes were. The bolts bottomed out, just shy of where they should be. It was enough that the head "seemed" tight, and you could torque the bolts, but it simply didn't put the pressure on the head. Shortening the bolts by a small amount fixed the problem. Just an idea.


That is an excellent idea, I wonder why Kohler tech support never thought of that? I know that there is no doubt in my mind that they were torqued to specs this last time, but like you said its not a bolt problem but a hole problem. I will definetly measure those holes next time and if there is any doubt I will shorten those bolts up a bit.
Thanks for the advise, that was not something that even occured to me before.
You learn something new every day!


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## Junkfxr (Aug 8, 2008)

I was looking at Husqvarna's website the other day and noticed that they don't offer Kohler engines in their garden tractors any more, hmmmm. Just a suggestion if this latest fix doesn't work, have you considered looking at an older used Deere 300 or 400 series garden tractor? The gas powered ones used Onans. The only parts that I've had to replace are the voltage regulator, fuel pump, and starter. Not bad for 23 years of abuse. There are still quite a few 318's in really good shape out there for reasonable prices. Our 1985 318 has fluid filled bar tires and a cat. 0 3 point hitch. It mows the yard, plows the garden, pushes snow, spreads gravel, drags logs, hauls firewood, etc. They have real frames under them and several companies are making a copy of the front end loader that Deere used to make for them.


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## avalancher (Aug 8, 2008)

Junkfxr said:


> I was looking at Husqvarna's website the other day and noticed that they don't offer Kohler engines in their garden tractors any more, hmmmm. Just a suggestion if this latest fix doesn't work, have you considered looking at an older used Deere 300 or 400 series garden tractor? The gas powered ones used Onans. The only parts that I've had to replace are the voltage regulator, fuel pump, and starter. Not bad for 23 years of abuse. There are still quite a few 318's in really good shape out there for reasonable prices. Our 1985 318 has fluid filled bar tires and a cat. 0 3 point hitch. It mows the yard, plows the garden, pushes snow, spreads gravel, drags logs, hauls firewood, etc. They have real frames under them and several companies are making a copy of the front end loader that Deere used to make for them.


At this point I havent really considered a different tractor for this application. Aside from the head gasket problem I have really liked this tractor, and it has always done the small and medium jobs that I have asked of it. The plan for the future is for a medium sized compact tractor that I can still load on my trailer, having to weigh less than 7000lbs. This I plan on using for the heavier jobs like skidding wood out of the woods, heavy plowing, gravel spreading etc. I have found that this Husky tractor has been ideal for what I have needed to do around here. The compact size allows me to wind around through all our flower beds with a small trailer, haul a small trailer with one rick from behind the shop up to the house, etc. 
Tractor prices around here are steep, but with the economy taking a nose dive I have noticed a real drop in prices, and I figure that this winter will be a great time to snap up a good deal on a tractor. Our Mahindra dealer has had some real good incentives lately, and that is the direction that I am looking at right now, a small 4wd model.


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## Jkebxjunke (Aug 8, 2008)

Kubota has 42 months 0% right now...


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## omegajim (Aug 8, 2008)

3 and one half years at 0?

Going to have to look into that one.


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## Jkebxjunke (Aug 9, 2008)

thats what the card in the mail said and what my dealer has posted... 
also you can look here 
http://www.kubota.com/f/finance/promorates.cfm

looks like 36 months with $0 down and 42 with 15% down... worth looking in to


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## cabinman (Aug 9, 2008)

*flat washers*



jags said:


> Avalancher - I sure hope your recent parts swap fix your problem for the long term......but, if you find that you blow another head gasket, I have a suggestion.
> 
> From long ago, I had this problem with a single lung Kohler. The fix was: cutting about an 1/8" to 3/16" (or grinding) off of the head bolts. The bolts were not the defective part, but the holes were. The bolts bottomed out, just shy of where they should be. It was enough that the head "seemed" tight, and you could torque the bolts, but it simply didn't put the pressure on the head. Shortening the bolts by a small amount fixed the problem. Just an idea.



A thick washer or 2 thin ones will acomplish the same, good thought,...make sure the head is gettin torqued, It could be just that simple,... Eric


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## Junkfxr (Aug 9, 2008)

Massey Ferguson has 60 months at 0%.


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## avalancher (Aug 9, 2008)

cabinman said:


> A thick washer or 2 thin ones will acomplish the same, good thought,...make sure the head is gettin torqued, It could be just that simple,... Eric


For some reason the head gasket kit came with head bolts and head studs. With the studs is said to use the enclosed washers and nuts, but warned in large letters NOT to use washers of any kind with the bolts. Studs were to be used only with engines that originally used studs, and warned not to use studs when the original application used bolts, and visa versa.


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## Junkfxr (Aug 9, 2008)

avalancher said:


> For some reason the head gasket kit came with head bolts and head studs. With the studs is said to use the enclosed washers and nuts, but warned in large letters NOT to use washers of any kind with the bolts. Studs were to be used only with engines that originally used studs, and warned not to use studs when the original application used bolts, and visa versa.



That's odd. Studs with nuts have far better clamping ability, are a lot stronger and don't wear the threads in the block as bad.


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## avalancher (Aug 9, 2008)

Junkfxr said:


> That's odd. Studs with nuts have far better clamping ability, are a lot stronger and don't wear the threads in the block as bad.



Your right, and i think that the studs were used on the models after mine was built after Kohler discovered that they had a problem. 
the biggest design flaw of these heads is the large amount of the head that is not clamped well. It really needs a fifth head bolt, it only has four bolts centered around the cylinder well, and nothing to clamp down where the head fits over the well where the push rods come up through the head. That is where all of the leaks came from, that large lip over the push rod galley that is almost three inches from the nearest head bolt.
Take a look at the pic


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## woodchuck361 (Aug 9, 2008)

Is there enough meat there to make a 5th bolt hole? you could use a smaller dia. bolt if the room is limited but it looked like there might be room. That would help hold your gasket down for sure.


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## Lloyd H (Aug 9, 2008)

*long head bolts*

You might try buying a bottoming tap in the appropriate size and finish tapping the bolt holes. That way you don't lose any of the thread strength. As you stated check for length, good way is run bolt into block and measure under head then measure head thickness. Head design does look suspect with push rod gallery way out of bolt circle. Sad to say Kohler ain't bullet proof, then neither is Honda or etc etc etc.


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## Jkebxjunke (Aug 10, 2008)

Junkfxr said:


> Massey Ferguson has 60 months at 0%.



I told my neighbor that.. and he said he would rather have a case of the clap than a MF. He is one of those who like green paint.. ( the only green he own is a JD zeroturn mower) his tractors are a ford jubilee and a int. 350 utility go figure and wonders why he spends so much on gas


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## ngzcaz (Aug 15, 2008)

Boy am I glad I found this post. Here I am hauling in excess of 1500 lbs for the last 11 years on my D-18 auto Wheelhorse and pushing snow over the top of my 300 lb dozer blade & A frame assembly. Its a 1974.. dont want to overwork the old girl.. weighs over 1,000 lbs w/o the dozer blade and A frame & without the several hundred lbs weight in the rear to keep the tires from spinning. And its a garden tractor, all 18 horses of her.
The engine smokes a bit but keeps on going. Damn if it isnt the best tractor I've owned. Point is, Husky/Kohler apparently didnt do the job on yours. At some point in time most people get p.o. enough to say " Ok " ya got me once but never again.. Maybe to go ahead, its time to go back to a proven winner.. as in years .. I'm sure lots of guys w/ opinions as to a bullet proof tractor would chime in.. Good luck. You have more patience than I..


:agree2:


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