# Yeah, new guy questions



## Old Cane (Nov 28, 2009)

Ok, I've watched some videos and read some posts and the sticky here and I have a few questions left so give me you opinions, please.

I have about 10 acres of standing cedar I want to clear. I called the local sawmills and "since nothing ain't movin', we ain't buyin' no more". Bummer. Thought I might just log it off and sell it that way. So since that's not an option my wife says "why don't you cut up that cedar and use it around here like to rebuild the arena?" I don't know what you get out of that but to me it's a clear signal to go buy a mill.

I have a 455 Rancher with a 20" bar. I'm thinking about the Alaskan Small Log mill for this set up. My first question: if i get one of the smaller MK-IIIs can I just use what I have on smaller logs until (yes I know it'll happen) I get a bigger saw? Or should I go ahead with the smaller model and get the MK-III later? I know I can put a 24" bar on that Rancher but would that be a good idea for milling?

Are ripping chains more difficult to sharpen?

Is a 385xp a good option for milling? The 390xp? In our local CL I see lots of Stihls but not many big Huskys for sale so an 066 might pop up from time to time.

I'm sure I'll think of something else shortly to ask.


----------



## discounthunter (Nov 28, 2009)

first thing is,are you in a hurry to clear this land,if not mill it yourself,and/or log prices go back up. i would say the 455 is too small to do ant milling. how big are the trees? i would invest in the mk3 ,it would give you more versitility .

the husky 385-390-394 are all excelent for logging,alot also use the o66/660stihls.

this being said i use a 68cc,but i go slow and dont mill that much or often.

thers a ton og info on this site to get you in the right direction,and a lot of pros in the milling field to get answers from.

btw you are aware milling is like a container of pringles,you cant mill just one tree.


----------



## mtngun (Nov 28, 2009)

If I had 10 acres of cedar to play with I'd either buy a bandsaw or else hire the services of a portable bandsawyer.


----------



## BobL (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd start this by asking yourself some question.

1) Do I mainly want to play with mills/saws, or the complete projects?

2) How much lumber do I need to rebuild the arena and the other projects I want to do?

3) How much will the lumber cost to buy? If nothing's moving at the mills now seems the time to buy lumber rather than a mill - my trees will still be there later when things pick up.

4) How soon do I/wife want to complete the arena and projects?

5) How much will a mill and a decent saw cost? (I'd forget about your current saw, it's OK for milling a few logs but not for any form of production as in rebuilding an arena)

6) How much will it cost to get my trees milled?

Many of these questions are interlinked.
If wife is to be placated then I imagine 4) might have a reasonable priority? The fastest way for this is to buy lumber, or like mtngun says, buying a bandsaw mill or getting your lumber milled.

If you mainly want to have some fun with CS mills then there will be very little lumber produced in the short term ;-) and overall production will be slow. Then you have to turn around and wait for stuff to dry and then make said items.

If you decided on a CS mil then I agree with discounthunter, the MK-III is the superior mill over the other.


----------



## Brmorgan (Nov 28, 2009)

I wouldn't bother with the small log mill if there's even a 50% chance you'll be moving up to a larger saw and a MK III later on - you'd be much better served with a Mini-Mill since it would complement the Mk III much better. The small log mill is basically the same concept in a smaller, less complicated package, whereas the Mini-Mill allows for a lot more versatility - for instance if you had a bigger saw on the MK III doing the lion's share of the work, you could keep your 455 on the mini-mill and use it for squaring cants and slabs where there is much less wood to be cut.

Others have already given you some good questions to chew on. I don't know how big your intended projects are, but a guy can easily spend a LOT more time milling the wood than actually _using_ it, especially if the milling saw is on the smaller end. 10 acres could practically be a lifetime supply of trees as far as chainsaw milling is concerned, so if you're hoping to clear a significant amount of them in the near future, you're either going to need to buy or hire a bandmill, or have your logs trucked to a proper sawmill.


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 28, 2009)

Well, some good questions were asked. As for the arena it's a very small project. It would be about 400 board feet or 600 or 800 if I wanted to do 3 or 4 boards. And as far as milling 10 acres of cedar, well, I already need to paint and watch it dry.

Projects I see in the future that need wood....

1-arena
2-dock for the pond
3-redo the deck for the pool

Total if I bought all the wood at HD would be between 2 and $3000. I guess not many of you also post in the chainsaw forum where this is automatically a reason to get another saw. So let's see where I stand here.

1) Do I mainly want to play with mills/saws, or the complete projects? *Both*

2) How much lumber do I need to rebuild the arena and the other projects I want to do? *Not sure of a number but somewhere between some and quite a bit*

3) How much will the lumber cost to buy? If nothing's moving at the mills now seems the time to buy lumber rather than a mill - my trees will still be there later when things pick up. *this is kind of where I'm at. I'm going to have to drop a lot of cedar to get to the hardwood for firewood so I figured I could either stack logs or mill logs. What's still left would maybe 9 1/2 acres when cedar starts selling again. This is one reason I want to mill it myself and just do it along as projects come up.*

4) How soon do I/wife want to complete the arena and projects? *she doesn't really expect me to complete anything in this lifetime. At least, that's what she says quite often. Not always sure how to take that.*

5) How much will a mill and a decent saw cost? (I'd forget about your current saw, it's OK for milling a few logs but not for any form of production as in rebuilding an arena) *I was kind of wanting a 372 anyway and adding $3-500 or so for a mill would be ok with me. I wasn't really wanting a 390 or larger for general work but I do see some used from time to time along with 066s*

6) How much will it cost to get my trees milled? *Not really an option within a distance worth driving.*


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 28, 2009)

Oh, yeah, next question;

Does anybody use those clamp on forks on their tractor bucket?

I think also I lost a question about the size of the cedar. It's from of course 2" up to 40+ inches. I'd say most is in the 12-24" range.

And, because I know I'll soon be aksing this question anyway; what's a good inexpensive bandsaw mill and cost? I know I'm not going to buy a $6000 mill just to see if I like doing it. But if there is one around a thousand.......


----------



## BobL (Nov 28, 2009)

Old Cane said:


> 4) How soon do I/wife want to complete the arena and projects? *she doesn't really expect me to complete anything in this lifetime. At least, that's what she says quite often. Not always sure how to take that.* ]



Well, then it's a no brainer 
Buy the biggest mill and saw you can get away with.


RE: Does anybody use those clamp on forks on their tractor bucket?
I've used both these and reckon the regular forks win hands down.

RE: Are ripping chains more difficult to sharpen?
No


----------



## discounthunter (Nov 28, 2009)

im assuming its eastern red cedar? ,if so cutting them and storing them is not really a problem as they dont rot except the sap wood(white ring of wood on the outside) if you logged them stacked them out of the way you would be one step ahead in the milling process.

if you keep your eyes peeled you might find a band saw mill for faily good price, but with no market to sell the wood you would just be off setting your total store bought wood purches.

you may try looking around your area and talk to local shop about sawmillers in the area .


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 28, 2009)

Wow. I guess you guys don't have gear aquisition syndrome over here. I thought I'd get lots of encouragement. My plan wasn't to go into the milling business and sell boards. I may not have been real clear on that. There are 2 local sawmills that in the past have bought logs by the ton. Now they are buying by the foot when they buy. The little hillbilly is not real easy to understand but he was mumbling something about 40 cents/foot and I think he said 8' log that's 8" on the small end is something like 19' and would bring about $8.

I'd much rather sell off the logs and buy what I need as well as pay for some other stuff around the place like a splitter, new wood stove for the house, bigger saw, more gravel, etc. I figure selling it off might be in the $6000 ballpark, just a quick guess. But since selling it isn't in the cards I could mill enough for what I need and possibly break even by not spending $3000 on store bought lumber.

Oh, well. It was just a thought. I don't mind spending a little and getting a little. I just don't want to spend a lot and only need a little wood. Work is sometimes fun but not always that much fun.

I was hoping those clamp-on forks would be ok for moving a few logs around because I use my bucket a lot and would just as soon leave it attached all the time.


----------



## rmount (Nov 28, 2009)

Got a pair of those clamp on forks this year for moving a few logs around and taking slab away from the mill. Work allot better than chaining logs to the bucket! A little hard to see past the bucket to the forks sometimes, but I'm happy with them.


----------



## BobL (Nov 28, 2009)

Old Cane said:


> Wow. I guess you guys don't have gear aquisition syndrome over here.



Oh yeah - we got that, for me its been 7 CS, 3 mills a diesel van and and a partridge in a pear tree, in two and a half years, and its not even really my main hobby.


----------



## mtngun (Nov 28, 2009)

OK, gear acquisition mode. 

A new entry level bandmill like a Norwood 2000 will be in the $6000 range. 

A new 90+ cc saw plus granberg mill, a few loops of milling chain, guide board, etc., might be $1200 or more.

In both cases you could save by buying used -- if you are comfortable dealing with maintenance issues that tend to come with used equipment.

In both cases, it's possible to buy used, mill your logs, and then turn around and sell the gear for about what you paid. However, you said something about "gear acquisition."

Cost effective to do it yourself ? No. Satisfying to do it yourself ? A few of us think so.

Chainsaw milling is hard, dirty work. If that appeals to you, go for it.


----------



## dustytools (Nov 28, 2009)

If you dont mind a little hard work then Id say that a CSM is oerfect for what you are wanting to do with repairing the arena, etc.... I got into chainsaw milling to supply my woodworking hobby. Having 10 acres of your own wood is a big plus, if you are anything like me and most everyone else on this site you will be looking for stuff to build and fix just to have an excuse to drop and mill a few of those Cedars. Best of luck to ya!!


----------



## huskyhank (Nov 28, 2009)

You might consider having someone with a portable bandsaw mill come to you and saw on shares. I suspect there is someone nearby if you look. You'd get a lot of what you want without the hardest work. 

So go buy that new Husky 372 and get some logs on the ground!! And if you want to get a taste of milling just give it a try with your new 372 and an Alaskan Mill. It won't be great on big logs but you won't spend a lot of money to find you don't like milling. Buy a 36 inch mill so you can use it with a bigger saw later if you like it.

I mostly use my CSM to get wood I can't buy. Even with free walnut logs (as an example) its a bunch of work when you can just go buy the regular commercially dried and surfaced product.


----------



## mikeb1079 (Nov 29, 2009)

hmmm. oldcane: i think that if i were in your situation, with the amount of lumber you have access to, and with a tractor, i'd look into finding a used bandsaw mill. i've not ran one, but i would think that it would be perfect for your situation, where you can bring the lumber to the mill. you mentioned that the cost of the lumber would be 2-3k, what better argument could one have to buy a nice used bandsaw mill!  look at the craigslist ads for any towns within a couple hundred miles, you could get lucky. i really enjoy chainsaw milling, but as has been said, it's hard dirty work. not really meant to be a production type of situation. think about it: you get a bandsaw mill, park it where you want it, build a nice little shed over it with some extra room to stack and sticker all of your lumber, and you got it made! i bet you could get the bsm to pay for itself within a few years.
good luck and let us know how it goes!


----------



## rarefish383 (Nov 29, 2009)

I can spend hours watching video of different mills. I just googled band saw mills and they're lots of them. Hud Son has an 18" mill for $2995 and a 28" mill for $3995. There were several that addvertised cheapest mill but didn't give prices. I liked the video fo Backyard Mills machine but they didn't give price, Joe.


----------



## Sawyer Rob (Nov 29, 2009)

rarefish383 said:


> I can spend hours watching video of different mills. I just googled band saw mills and they're lots of them. Hud Son has an 18" mill for $2995 and a 28" mill for $3995. There were several that addvertised cheapest mill but didn't give prices. I liked the video fo Backyard Mills machine but they didn't give price, Joe.




Hudson is the only mill that i wouldn't even consider. There's just too many of them around with problems.

Anyone who is serous about making much lumber, that has 10 acres of tree's, WILL buy a bandmill sooner or later, most times "after" they spend 1 or 2K on trying a CSM. OR, they will be sick of the whole project, and just go buy the lumber. They would be money ahead to buy the bandmill up front, ay least they would have something fairly easy to sell when they got tired of it, or got done using it.

Bolt on forks: The biggest problem with them is, you can't see what your doing and they cut WAAAAAY back on the amount your tractor will pick up!

Rob


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 29, 2009)

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. And thanks on the forks. I think they would be fine no more than I would use them.

I just have to say that I was a guitar player for 25 years and the words bandsaw and guitar player go together about as well and guitar player and small airplane. I tended to stay way from them. I have a day job now.

I looked at the Norwood and Woodmizer and think they might be good for what I would need but it would be later on. I have a barn where it could sit but of course building a new shed with the wood I milled would be much more in line with my theory of - if you got it, use it. So anyway, with the guard system I see on these bandsaws they seem pretty safe....as safe as bandsaws are going to get. I also liked the Norwood CSM but have no idea how much they. Anybody know? It looks to be a lot easier to use than the Alaskan. I may be wrong. My wife says I am a lot.

So my plan is to get a bigger saw regardless. If the 372 would work until I decide yes or no on a bandsaw then I would go with that. If not then a 385 or so I guess. I really don't have much interest in spending $1500 on a saw (like a 3120) to be used only for milling when that could go to pay for a big part of a bandsaw. For that matter I think the 455 would cut everything I own as for felling. When I was a kid we dropped huge elm trees, some 50-60" across with dad's Pioneer and 20" bar. It took some work but the time and work was nothing compared to trying to split that stuff. That was the real work.

So I guess lets move on to some more questions;

-how long do you stack your cut lumber to dry before using it?

-how smooth is it? would I need a planer before I used it for decking (barefoot grandkinds) around a pool?

And some general how to;

-say i want to mill 1x6s. Do I mill the beams 6" wide or if I mill 1x12s I would then rip them on a table saw? What's common?

-it looks like on the bandsaws you can do 2 parallel logs. Is this common? Say I split a 12x12 and leave side by side and cut 1x6s 2 at a time?

-how long do the blades usually last and how expensive are they ( just ballpark like saying a chain is around $20)


It looks to me like the Norwood CSM and a 372 would be a good place to start. It may be all I ever want and may find someone to go on shares. What's a common hourly rate or day rate for a portable mill guy where you are? What would be fair on shares if I have the logs and the tractor? 50/50? Too much? Too little? I had some guys want to log it off a couple of times over the years. They offered me 1/3. They cut, hauled and sold. This was over the phone. Only one crew ever showed up to look and they were all in-laws so could never agree on coming back and getting started. I have the smae trouble with plumbers and handymen and farriers around here. They'll give you a bid and then never return your calls. I guess it's nice to have more business than you need.


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 29, 2009)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Anyone who is serous about making much lumber, that has 10 acres of tree's, WILL buy a bandmill sooner or later, most times "after" they spend 1 or 2K on trying a CSM. OR, they will be sick of the whole project, and just go buy the lumber. They would be money ahead to buy the bandmill up front, ay least they would have something fairly easy to sell when they got tired of it, or got done using it.



Again, guys, I guess I'm not being clear. My options were to either _log off 10 acres_ or _mill a little bit of lumber to use myself_. The option of going ahead with a bandsaw and selling it when I get done or tired of it is a pretty good one, though.

So, what are the good, bad an ugly of bandsaws? I have no idea what they cost as most places don't advertise the prices online. I did see the Norwoods for about $6k and $3500 respectivley. I see the CSM is $1200. Forget that.

Anybody got prices on Woodmizer? Those are the only 2 brands I usually see but someone mentioned a couple of others. Apparently there is a Hudson dealer not far away from me but they already have a vote against them.

Are there decent used ones around for $2k or less?


----------



## Coalsmoke (Nov 29, 2009)

Sorry ahead of time, I haven't read every post in this thread, but I think I am catching the main points. I have owned 3 types of mills so far. I started with a Husky 372XP and an alaskan mill, used the Granberg 30 something inch milling attachment. Works ok, nice and portable, no need to try and move 2500 + lbs of log to a mill. In fact my father and I built a 2 story timber frame barn among other things this way.

Mill #2 was when I started off in the small scale commercial sawing. I built myself a carriage style chainsaw mill. It is a large improvement over the alaskan mill, and I upgraded to a Husky 395XP saw which was a big help. This was my market tester, it allowed me to get into the business and get a feel for the local lumber market without spending too much money. This might be a good route that you may want to consider. Here is a video of me cutting cedar with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSAgnygjdyY

The video will give you an idea of cutting speed. If you are, like you said, going to do this as a hobby and not try to sell lumber or cut a lot of wood in a single weekend, a chainsaw mill like this can be a great way to go. Plus, its resale value will always be very high because of its low maintenance needs and lower price range, it will appeal to a lot of folks.

Mill #3 is a 20HP Norwood Lumbermate 2000. I Have about $12,000 invested in it, including the professional blade setter and the sharpener. I also have a $8,000 63HP tractor with loader that will lift a little over 3,000lbs of wood or logs and bring them to the mill. This is my day to day business, every dollar I have to live off of comes from it, so it may not be a good comparison on this regard to what you want to do. However, I feel that the Norwood LM2000 is *THE* best mill you can get for the dollars you'll spend, in its price range. I did a lot of research before buying mine. In fact, I came out of university as a trained analytical researcher in the Criminal Justice field, so you can be sure I looked at all the facts and left the marketing hype by the wayside.

The next step in my eyes is a hydraulic mill like the Woodmizer LT40HD28. Expect to pay $28,000 new or less used. 

If this was just a hobby, I would have stayed with the chainsaw carriage mill. Being able to dog the logs and not be working on the ground was a nice improvement over working the granberg alaskan mill. If you are going to be spending serious money, take a close look at Norwood and Woodmizer. For the dollar they are hard to beat. Maybe the Norwood Lumberlite would be the ticket for you? One thing I enjoy about my LM200 is that almost any part I need for it can be bought here in town at a hardware store. That said, I'm sure you'd find Woodmizer a top notch company with a wealth of technical knowledge should you choose them.

I hope some of this helps. I will put this thread on my watch list in case you have any questions about my setup.

Regards,
CS


----------



## Coalsmoke (Nov 29, 2009)

Old Cane said:


> So I guess lets move on to some more questions;
> 
> -how long do you stack your cut lumber to dry before using it?
> 
> ...




You have asked a lot of questions here. Let's focus on your main question in this thread, types of mills and then choice said of mill. 

There is a lot of excellent information to be found on this website and you will spend tens if not hundreds of hours reading until you have a firm grasp on all those different areas you just asked about in your above quoted post. The search feature will be your best friend for this.


----------



## BobL (Nov 29, 2009)

Coalsmoke said:


> Being able to dog the logs and not be working on the ground was a nice improvement over working the granberg alaskan mill.



Using an alaskan mill doesn't necessarily mean using it on the ground.






It's relatively easy to lift even large logs to a height that suits an operator using a kangaroo jack, like this.





The one thing I do like about alaskan mills is being able mill on a changing slope and take advantage of the mill/saw's own weight. If the chain is set up just right and the log is on a slope, the CS will self feed and will not need any significant pushing - what I usually do is maintain a forward pressure by leaning on the mill. On carriage style mills the operator has to push the mill or use a winch. A winch can also be used on an alaskan but when I tried using one I didn't like it. I like to feel the saw cutting and vary the forward pressure based on the feel. The winch also does not work so well around awkward shaped logs.

In no way am I knocking carriage style mills, they have many advantages, especially if the logs are a regular size, are located in the one place and production rate is important but, used in alternative ways alaskans can be a lot easier to use than is generally shown by most operators.


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, thanks for all the info, guys. I really appreciate it. I think I'm going to drop some trees in the next few weeks and then regroup and see what I've got going on. I do like the MK-III but the Small Mill looks alright too but yeah, if I get a bigger saw I'd need to go on and get the MK-III anyway.

The Norwood for under $3500 look good. The Lite with the B&S engine. So let me ask in case anyone has an answer; what do these sell for used? If I got some use out of it and sold it would it bring maybe $2500? $2000? I'm trying to see how much use I'd need out of it before I felt like I was breaking even. Buying a $200 csm and a bigger saw I want anyway is no biggie but investing $3500 (yes, to me anything over $1000 is an investment) is another story just to have some fun with it. I have plenty of expensive hobbies as it is.


----------



## Coalsmoke (Nov 29, 2009)

Bob, of course you are correct. In fact, that's one of the reason's I enjoy your posts. Low tech but effective solutions to do what many of us rely on machinery and industrial systems to accomplish. 

Old Cane, it depends a lot on a person's specific area. Usually if you want to stick with a reputable name brand you will find they hold their value well, which is bad for buying but good for selling. If you found a 3yr old Norwood Lumberlite for example, that was taken care of, I would expect to pay around 80% of new.


----------



## Brmorgan (Nov 29, 2009)

Forget $1000, any time I buy a tool I feel it's an investment, be it a $5 screwdriver or a $500 saw.


----------



## Old Cane (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks, both of you.

So, what are reliable brands that have something in the $3-4000 range? Is the Hudson out? Like I said Norwood and Woodmizer are all I've familiar with, WM just from magazine ads until I saw this forum.


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Dec 6, 2009)

Old Cane,

If you are thinking about getting a band mill, I suggest that you hire a local portable mill to come in and saw for a couple of days. You can learn a lot from watching a sawyer in action. I also don't mind answering a few questions when sawing for customers. This will give you an idea of how much work is involved with running a mill and what kind of results you can expect. See what features are really needed on a band mill and which ones you don't think you will need. This will also get you a good start on a drying stack of lumber.
After spending a couple of days working with a professional mill, get a demo of the hobby mill you think you may be interested in buying. This will allow you to understand a lot more while watching the demo in action.
A few points to make life easier for the sawyer. Have your logs stacked off the ground and grouped by type. If they are muddy or have been dragged along the ground then pressure wash them if possible. Note: gravel and rough bark are a bad mix that will ruin a blade in seconds. 
I run an older WoodMizer LT40 with hydraulics. I also run 3 or 4 different hook angles on my blades depending on the wood type being cut. Real soft cutting wood like Yellow Popular, White Pine and Eastern Red Cedar cut best with a higher hook angle. Yellow Pine, Red Oak, Holly, Walnut get a medium hook angle. White Oak, Hickory, Pecan, Black Locust get cut with yet a lower hook angle. Frozen wood gets the lowest hook angle. Logs that have been cut for a while - more than 3 months in dry weather- can cut like a harder wood than they normally would. 
Another thing to keep in mind if the cut lumber is going straight from the mill to a drying stack, put the longer logs in front so they can go right to the bottom of the stack. It sure can save a lot of extra handleing.
As for the cost of hiring a sawyer, I work by the hour. I charge $30 per hour for my time and $30 per hour for the mill when it is running. I normally also charge for one way of travel. If I'm on site for 8 hours, I will normally charge for 7 hrs or so for my time and will put 4.5 or 5 hours on the mill hourmeter. I don't charge for time spent eating lunch or shooting the bull. I do tend to charge for time spent teaching about wood care, stacking and drying tips, and log prep. Other sawyers may charge by the board foot. Some charge by actual board measure and some by log measure. Call around and try to have the sawyer come out and see your worksite to give you a bid.
Good luck,
Rick

PS I have traveled quite a ways to mill logs, but in your case, it doesn't sound like you will have enough work to make the trip worth while. Just giving you info about my rates to compare with locals. Rick


----------



## SilverBox (Dec 6, 2009)

If I were you I'd do it myself. Build a Alaskan Mill heres the one I built its not pretty but it works http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=91379 . Buy a used bigger saw. I use a 394xp http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=97690 that I bought for $300 its quite ugly but I pulled the covers checked the bearings and pulled the muff and checked the p & c before I bought it. Its held up so far.

If this seems like too much work, take huskyhanks suggestion and look for a local portable mill guy who will take shares.


----------



## Old Cane (Dec 14, 2009)

Well, I build guitars. That stuff I know. But when it comes to welding, moving parts and stuff that can become projectiles I tend to just buy it already made. Nobody ever died from a guitar coming apart, although listening to today's music makes me wonder why not. It could just be a matter of time.


----------

