# Business expansion... what shoud I buy, do I really need it?



## mountainman1888 (Mar 24, 2016)

Hey gents, thought I would see what you guys think. I have been in tree work for a few years now, running mostly on my own. I'm not a hack, don't worry, insured, licensed etc. I do mainly stump removal, but do about 15 tree removals and 15 trim jobs a year. I enjoy all aspects of what I do, but would like to do more removals and trimming. Should I keep running solo, or add an employee to do more technical work and give my back a break? I believe I am actually super efficient on my own, I'm never waiting on anyone, and never ever stand around, but there is only so much I can do. Obviously, the stump work will always be solo. I have a Bandit 2550XP that makes me good money doing stumps. LOVE that machine. 

This leads me to my next point... equipment. I would like to get a chipper even If I stay solo, but just cannot justify a large machine. I know, I know, you guys are going to tell me to just bite the bullet and get a big hyd feed 12'' or bigger, but that just isn't in the mix for my setup. I have limited storage availability, and I like just driving my F-250 and 14' dump. I have looked at a few small chippers that I can roll onto the trailer and even into backyards that I think can really improve productivity. I'd like the Bandit 490xp, but it's 7000 new, and Ive never seen a used one. That small chipper is something that would reduce the branchy stuff, the logs will get carted like I do now. Any other options that come to mind? The Europeans love their small machines, most all of them run cart style chippers. The problem in the US is there are almost no options for a good compact commercial chipper. 

I know alot of you guys can't imagine running a little portable chipper like that, and think the idea is a waste of time, but there are times that small portable equipment works really well. For instance, I do snow in the winter, and the blower I got this year is small, but runs circles around the big ones and is easier on my body. The Toro snowmaster singlestage. Its new this year and uses the same personal pace drive system that their push mowers have. Im not kidding this snowblower is twice as fast per job, and is twice as easy to load on the hitch haul since its really light etc. Thing runs all day long on a tank of fuel, and still goes through the deep stuff my 32'' John Deere bogged on. I know chippers are not the same story, bigger is probably better, but this is where I'm at. For really big jobs, I have a buddy with a 12'' chipper, or I could always rent. 

Am I wasting my time looking at a small chipper for 30 jobs a year? Should I stay solo?


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## Zale (Mar 24, 2016)

How old are you?


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## mountainman1888 (Mar 24, 2016)

Zale said:


> How old are you?


Haha 32... I think a small chipper might be more of a hassle... Dont know how i can expand w/o a chipper though. I did actually just find a new Dosko chipper with a 13 hp honda on it. Its only 3k, and really portable. http://www.dosko.com/library/librar...mation/Brochures/Dosko_Chipper_Literature.pdf


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## Zale (Mar 24, 2016)

Looking at that chipper, I would not use it. If you're going with a small chipper, 6" capacity would be the minimum.


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## ATH (Mar 24, 2016)

Can you dump brush for free or cheap? I think a bigger dump trailer is more efficient than a small chipper. They just eat stuff so slow. Where are you going to blow the chips? Adding a dump bes to the truck is reasonable, but more expense. If you can get away with dumping brush, for that few jobs I think you are going to have a hard time paying for the chipper with small gains in efficiency.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth.


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## mountainman1888 (Mar 24, 2016)

Zale said:


> Looking at that chipper, I would not use it. If you're going with a small chipper, 6" capacity would be the minimum.


I cant do a 6'', no pull behind chipper is in my deck of cards due to storage and logistics. But yeah would otherwise


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## mountainman1888 (Mar 24, 2016)

ATH said:


> Can you dump brush for free or cheap? I think a bigger dump trailer is more efficient than a small chipper. They just eat stuff so slow. Where are you going to blow the chips? Adding a dump bes to the truck is reasonable, but more expense. If you can get away with dumping brush, for that few jobs I think you are going to have a hard time paying for the chipper with small gains in efficiency.
> 
> Just my thoughts for what it is worth.


I can dump for free, 20 min drive one way. just looking to chip the branchy stuff to save space and trips.


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## ATH (Mar 24, 2016)

If you cut stuff flat (which you'll have to do to feed into small hand feed chipper anyhow, you should be able to get most of a modest sized tree into a 14' dump trailer...certainly a fair amount of pruning. I do that often with a 10'.


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## Tree94 (Mar 24, 2016)

I have a 12' flat bed with 4' high sides that I load my brush in.
If you know how to load it right, you would be VERY surprised how much brush you can fit into it.

If you cut each branch up to be as straight and flat as possible (which only takes 2 seconds) like the picture below, it loads in very efficiently.



I remove trees just like the Euc pictured below and I have no problem fitting the entire tree in one load...
And then when I go and buck up the brush with a saw, it reduces even more...
Load the brush first obviously and load logs/firewood last.




Yes, a 12" diesel chipper would be nice.....
Good luck

ps. I've heard the 6" chippers are garbage from many people. like some said above, its fast to just load it in a trailer because of how slow it chips.


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## mountainman1888 (Mar 24, 2016)

Tree94 said:


> I have a 12' flat bed with 4' high sides that I load my brush in.
> If you know how to load it right, you would be VERY surprised how much brush you can fit into it.
> 
> If you cut each branch up to be as straight and flat as possible (which only takes 2 seconds) like the picture below, it loads in very efficiently.
> ...


All good points. I still may get the chipper, but cutting down to size seems like the way to go. If I do hire an employee that will speed up the brush hauling by quite a bit too. I guess I will just see what happens this year with work work volume. 

Has anyone thought of mounting a couple boat winches on the sides of a trailer to compress branches to fit more on? I might try that and see what happens. I think that could really smash everything flat


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## IyaMan (Mar 24, 2016)

Find yourself a college or late High School kid (or two) you can hire on call to do the grunt work. I'm not saying this as a business owner, but as a former teenaged grunt worker myself. If you get the right kid (ask neighbors and friends, let the parents make the call on reliability), especially one in a local college, you can retain him for years, and the comradely will be a benefit on both sides. If he's only available certain days, (like Saturdays) you can line up the heavy jobs for then. Yeah, your efficiency may suffer a bit till he knows the ropes, but someone under 25 will have boundless energy. Let him trim and pack all them branches (for 15 jobs a year, way cheaper and faster than a chipper) An F250 w/ trailer doesn't need a CDL, so he can haul it out while you finish up. Also, if you ever get a big job, you can have him recruit a reliable set of extra hands from one of his friends.


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## Tree94 (Mar 24, 2016)

mountainman1888 said:


> Has anyone thought of mounting a couple boat winches on the sides of a trailer to compress branches to fit more on? I might try that and see what happens. I think that could really smash everything flat



I've thought about doing something like that many times! just have never implemented it. if you decide to give it a go, keep us posted on how it worked!


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## Tree94 (Mar 24, 2016)

IyaMan said:


> Find yourself a college or late High School kid (or two) you can hire on call to do the grunt work. I'm not saying this as a business owner, but as a former teenaged grunt worker myself. If you get the right kid (ask neighbors and friends, let the parents make the call on reliability), especially one in a local college, you can retain him for years, and the comradely will be a benefit on both sides. If he's only available certain days, (like Saturdays) you can line up the heavy jobs for then. Yeah, your efficiency may suffer a bit till he knows the ropes, but someone under 25 will have boundless energy. Let him trim and pack all them branches (for 15 jobs a year, way cheaper and faster than a chipper) An F250 w/ trailer doesn't need a CDL, so he can haul it out while you finish up. Also, if you ever get a big job, you can have him recruit a reliable set of extra hands from one of his friends.



former grunt worker myself. excellent points!


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 24, 2016)

I would suggest a self dumping 12-14' trailer. Flat stack the branch material in it and when it reaches the top of the sides, hop in with a chainsaw and 'confetti' (slice and dice to make the pieces smaller) it. Occasionally we have to do that now with our trucks (chipper breaks down mid job etc). Groundies really ***** when they get sent inside the truck to pull branches in and then have to cut them up inside the box.


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## IyaMan (Mar 24, 2016)

Regarding getting a young helper, I also say this because mountmans1888 seems like a good guy and I will always remember my (good) mentors. If you can give a young buck guidance on responsibility and a job well done, then the payback is more than just the extra earnings/business growth. Also, as you get grayer and slower, if you find the right one you can truly expand with full-time or partnership. I was offered this by two of my bosses but had to turn them down as I had other plans. (I ran about 4 on call grunt jobs at the same time while in college, as a painter, landscaper, power-washer, and at a car repair shop. All skills I'm thankful to have now as well as great knowledge on small business and work ethic).


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 24, 2016)

IyaMan said:


> Regarding getting a young helper, I also say this because mountmans1888 seems like a good guy and I will always remember my (good) mentors. If you can give a young buck guidance on responsibility and a job well done, then the payback is more than just the extra earnings/business growth. Also, as you get grayer and slower, if you find the right one you can truly expand with full-time or partnership. I was offered this by two of my bosses but had to turn them down as I had other plans. (I ran about 4 on call grunt jobs at the same time while in college, as a painter, landscaper, power-washer, and at a car repair shop. All skills I'm thankful to have now as well as great knowledge on small business and work ethic).



Unfortunately, you may go through 20 or 30 to find the right one.


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## IyaMan (Mar 24, 2016)

BC WetCoast said:


> Unfortunately, you may go through 20 or 30 to find the right one.



Sadly, could be very true. But it helps to hire through someone you know rather than Craigslist.


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## mountainman1888 (Mar 24, 2016)

I have been looking at the .gov sites on hiring employees, and it seems like a racket. Red tape galore, or perhaps I am reading into it too much. Do any of you have employees? Is it worth it? Like I said before, I only do about 30 tree jobs a year, many of them are easily solo work, but there are definitely jobs I turn down, or do solo anyhow even though its not a great idea. I have been at it long enough on my own that I am really quite content not dealing with the logistics of a partner or employee(s). I guess you could say I'm at a crossroads. I think I'm maxed out with what I can take on by myself, but I'd like to do more, and get more technical removals etc.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 24, 2016)

Those who get rich do so by the sweat on other people's brows.

Our salesman makes $100k, I make 50. Do you think he could make that money, selling and doing the work himself?


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## JeffGu (Mar 25, 2016)

I use a 3.5" capacity, 14HP chipper... but, I cut everything into firewood and kindling and sell that... so it works for me. I seldom put anything bigger than 1.5" into it. I haul the brush to the shop, sometimes, and chip it there, or if I chip it on site I just run it into the back of two pickup trucks or one of the trailers. I also only do a limited number of tree removals each year, so it all works out. I use the chips on landscaping jobs or at home, so I don't have any trouble getting rid of them. It's not fast, but it works. If the tree work is your main or only source of income, I don't know if you could make that work, or not. A tree makes a lot of brush, which is why I like to haul it to the shop and chip it at my leisure. Prune jobs, it will keep up fine.

I don't think you'd be happy with one of these, though, if you are going to chip at the jobsite on removals. It would make your day far too long. And these guys would be driving by honking their horns, pointing and laughing. They do that to me all the time. At first, I thought it was the clown suit, but I think it might be the chipper.


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## ATH (Mar 25, 2016)

Two more thoughts/factors to weigh:

1) Would having the chipper allow you to do more tree jobs in a year? In other words, are you going to make more money because you have it?
2) Are you crunched on time to fit in the trees you do? For example, if you have a full time job and use vacation days to do tree work, would you go finish a tree and go into work to save a few hours of vacation?


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## tidy (Mar 25, 2016)

apart from being time consuming the micro chippers also consume a lot of effort to feed, you have to manually push all the material thru. I work out of a trailer regularly and we slash all the brush down once trimmed and loaded inside the trailer, slashing it down to mulch. Its not fun but it works.


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## CUCV (Mar 25, 2016)

Get yourself a mini skid steer with grapple. It's a very versatile machine which will open up doors to new work. It's also simply amazing how much more brush one can load into a dump with the compressive forces of a grapple. Since your main source of income is stump grinding you could remove grindings with the mini and bring in loam.
I had free use of a near new 6" chipper when I was starting up my business. They are just a toy IMO. I brought it on a job with a ton of brush and after a full day of chipping I hauled the rest of the brush to the dump on a 14' landscape trailer. I used to run two ropes under the brush so I could quickly side unload.
I know what your saying about the the small single stage snowblowers, I've gone through several of them in the past 15+ year and they are simply amazing. However, I don't feel chippers are the same. A 10" chipper is several times more productive than a 6" chipper.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 25, 2016)

BC WetCoast said:


> Those who get rich do so by the sweat on other people's brows.
> 
> Our salesman makes $100k, I make 50. Do you think he could make that money, selling and doing the work himself?



you do understand business,right
the market set's the price,,,,,,
Jeff


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 26, 2016)

Yes, I understand business. We were discussing whether he should hire an employee. If the employee makes you more money than he costs, then it makes sense to hire an employee.

My example probably wasn't the best. But as Henry Ford showed, people focusing on a single task makes it more productive for the company than a single person doing all the tasks. So for the OP, him doing the climbing/cutting and having a groundie should be more productive than him doing all the work himself. Therefore, he makes more money.


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## treesmith (Mar 26, 2016)

I do a lot of hazardous tree reductions/removals/pruning in reserves, parks and bushlands running a landcruiser V8 TD 4x4 tipper and a bandit 65xp, it gets where no truck can follow and is a very effective combo, cutting branches to fit and keeping knives sharp make it a pretty quick and efficient setup. Anything over 6" gets logged for firewood and removed or left for habitat on site. The company has two big rigs with a 1590xp each, two with a 1090xp each and two 65xp on smaller rigs, the bigger chippers are very restricted access wise on where they can go and the weather. There is no way I'd consider a chipper smaller than 6", I'd rather burn all the brush and save a ****-tonne of hassle. In fact, I worked in scotland for years without a chipper, we had the most enormous bonfires and a non stop supply of sellable firewood. Work out what you want to spend time doing and go from there.

Regards to employees, I'd much rather hire an intelligent mind

you can make a thinking man work, you can't always make a working man think

Muscles can be grown, brain cells can't 

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## treesmith (Mar 26, 2016)

I removed this tree with a 6" bandit

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## JeffGu (Mar 26, 2016)

Wouldn't it have been easier to cut it up with a chainsaw first?


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## Jimbo209 (Mar 31, 2016)

treesmith said:


> I do a lot of hazardous tree reductions/removals/pruning in reserves, parks and bushlands running a landcruiser V8 TD 4x4 tipper and a bandit 65xp, it gets where no truck can follow and is a very effective combo, cutting branches to fit and keeping knives sharp make it a pretty quick and efficient setup. Anything over 6" gets logged for firewood and removed or left for habitat on site. The company has two big rigs with a 1590xp each, two with a 1090xp each and two 65xp on smaller rigs, the bigger chippers are very restricted access wise on where they can go and the weather. There is no way I'd consider a chipper smaller than 6", I'd rather burn all the brush and save a ****-tonne of hassle. In fact, I worked in scotland for years without a chipper, we had the most enormous bonfires and a non stop supply of sellable firewood. Work out what you want to spend time doing and go from there.
> 
> Regards to employees, I'd much rather hire an intelligent mind
> 
> ...


Is that a 70 series or a 100/200 landcruiser. In Wagon or Ute. So do you chip into the Ute tray?? Or elsewhere 

I am the grunt kid mentioned and the boss has a 250xp.
Your smaller setup sounds nice would be nice when I can locate one out west


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## Jimbo209 (Mar 31, 2016)

We do alot of hedge and garden clearance and the 14" 250xp hyd feed blitzes through the brush, if sometimes a bit big. But it's a <3000kg trailer and have the afore mentioned access problems resulting in turning down the occasional job with sandy bog access.
Like the op a small unit or trailer chipper would be ideal. 

Just My .02c from the last 6-8 months


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## treesmith (Mar 31, 2016)

It's a 2014 truck cab tipper with chip bin, V8 turbo diesel think it's a 4.5l, works well, not too bad off road loaded and a chipper, good tyres help

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## Jimbo209 (Mar 31, 2016)

treesmith said:


> It's a 2014 truck cab tipper with chip bin, V8 turbo diesel think it's a 4.5l, works well, not too bad off road loaded and a chipper, good tyres help
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


Thanks.
Boss favors the patrols. Have people on both sides of the fence though so who knows
Work car is a MQ 4.2 n/a 6cyl which is a squeeze with the seat laid back
Big tree firm shares yard had 2 GQ single cabs.
I just need to fit my 7'/210cm frame Into the cab, which I remember a 75/6 cruiser Ute being a bit small in single.
That said the crewman cross8 looks handy, Also as a daily.


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## JeffGu (Apr 1, 2016)

Fits in the back of a pickup, or on a trailer... I've been hauling it on an aluminum 5.5' x 10' trailer along with a Carlton SP-2000 stump grinder and other equipment. I like it, and as I said.. it works for me. I just put it up against the back of a pickup truck and shoot the chips in there. It will handle up to 3.5" stuff, but it isn't fast.


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 4, 2016)

Your gear has to match your working environment.

Trucks, chippers, stumpers, saws, all come in 2 sizes

To big and to small

you can make as much with a 3 inch than a 12 inch chipper, its a matter of the right work gear for the right work.


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