# 3/8 vs .404 chains



## Locust Cutter (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm looking at investing in chain rolls to supply my cutting needs. I've noticed with my NE MS 660 that while cutting medium-hard to hard woods, that it seems like my 66 isn't realizing the full cutting potential of the engine. It feels like that 3/8 chain is kind of a limiting factor. I'm curious to see if there's anybody out there who's been using .404 chain and what luck they've had. I realize that "how it feels" is rather subjective, but if I can get a lot more done in the same amount of time with .404 chain instead of 3/8" then it would be worth it. By the same token if it would bog the saw down too' much, then I'll stick with 3/8". 
FWIW - I'm running both 24" and 36" bars in wood from Silver Maple to Hedge and Locust. Thanks!


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## mtngun (Feb 27, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> I'm looking at investing in chain rolls to supply my cutting needs. I've noticed with my NE MS 660 that while cutting medium-hard to hard woods, that it seems like my 66 isn't realizing the full cutting potential of the engine. It feels like that 3/8 chain is kind of a limiting factor. I'm curious to see if there's anybody out there who's been using .404 chain and what luck they've had. I realize that "how it feels" is rather subjective, but if I can get a lot more done in the same amount of time with .404 chain instead of 3/8" then it would be worth it. By the same token if it would bog the saw down too' much, then I'll stick with 3/8".
> FWIW - I'm running both 24" and 36" bars in wood from Silver Maple to Hedge and Locust. Thanks!


You've got it backwards.

3/8 chain, with its smaller kerf, cuts faster than .404.

No reason to use .404 on a MS660. It just wastes power cutting a wider kerf. 

You might be able to run an 8 pin 3/8 drive sprocket with the 24" bar. I use the 8 pin/24" on softwoods. Definitely need to switch to 7 pin for the 36", though.


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## Gologit (Feb 27, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> I'm looking at investing in chain rolls to supply my cutting needs. I've noticed with my NE MS 660 that while cutting medium-hard to hard woods, that it seems like my 66 isn't realizing the full cutting potential of the engine. It feels like that 3/8 chain is kind of a limiting factor. I'm curious to see if there's anybody out there who's been using .404 chain and what luck they've had. I realize that "how it feels" is rather subjective, but if I can get a lot more done in the same amount of time with .404 chain instead of 3/8" then it would be worth it. By the same token if it would bog the saw down too' much, then I'll stick with 3/8".
> FWIW - I'm running both 24" and 36" bars in wood from Silver Maple to Hedge and Locust. Thanks!



Try 3/8 square ground instead. You won't have to change any sprockets and once you learn to file or grind it I think you'll like it. The downside of square ground is that it dulls quickly in dirty wood and it's harder to file correctly.


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 27, 2010)

mtngun said:


> You've got it backwards.
> 
> 3/8 chain, with its smaller kerf, cuts faster than .404.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I finally found another thread to similar effect and saw the rants and ravings there, I think I'm just having some troubles with chip dispersal. I have noticed though, that on either bar it seems like my 660 ends up rolling the cutting edge down as soon as the blade starts to dull. Thats really frustrating.


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## Slamm (Feb 27, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> Thanks! I finally found another thread to similar effect and saw the rants and ravings there, I think I'm just having some troubles with chip dispersal. I have noticed though, that on either bar it seems like my 660 ends up rolling the cutting edge down as soon as the blade starts to dull. Thats really frustrating.



??? Rolling the cutting edge down on the chains teeth??

You need to switch to Stihl's semi-chisel in either full skip or full comp ........ I prefer full skip.

Don't use .404, its of no value to you.

My opinion,

Sam


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

Slamm said:


> ??? Rolling the cutting edge down on the chains teeth??
> 
> You need to switch to Stihl's semi-chisel in either full skip or full comp ........ I prefer full skip.
> 
> ...



I hate to ask a dumb newbee question but what are people referring to when they say full comp chain? I understand what a semi-skip is and a full skip(is that a comp?) but I've never figured out what that is.... 
FWIW - I've been using 3/8" 0.63g Carlton Semi-chisel non-safety on my 660 and Carlton .325 - 0.58g on my 346xp setup the same way. Had the same problem with both chains on both saws. I also notice that they don't hold an edge as well as Stihl chain seems to, especially in hedge, locust and blackjack oak. I always file my chains by hand, (don't have a grinder yet) and keep the rakers set for hardwood and keep the cutters at about a 30 degree angle. I'm thinking of trying the windsor brand chain, or just sticking with Stihl and buying it by the roll as I have no great love for Oregon or Carlton chains,...


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## MCW (Feb 28, 2010)

Firstly try an 8 pin on your 3/8" chain - .404 "can" cut faster than 3/8 if the saw has the nuts to pull it. On a 36" bar you won't pull it well enough with a stock 660 to make it worthwhile. I would think an 8 pin on a 36" bar with 3/8" may even be pushing a 660 with full chisel.

In saying that however, people often forget that there are other chain types out there other than full chisel. .404" full chisel certainly takes some pulling. I would hazard a guess though that .404" semi chisel would take around the same amount of power to pull as 3/8" round ground full chisel. There is also the wear factor - .404" semi will flog a 3/8" chain in abrasion resistance.

Horses for courses - although I run 3/8" on my modded 390 with a 32" bar this is only because I already had a heap of 105DL 3/8" chains to suit. I have run it with .404" semi chisel on a 32" bar and it pulled it no worries, easily outcutting a 3/8" 32" bar with semi chisel.

Full chisel on long bars over 32" is something I haven't had a hell of a lot of experience with though.


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## BobL (Feb 28, 2010)

How're you setting yer rakers?


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

BobL said:


> How're you setting yer rakers?



Been flat filing them with a raker depth gauge that was part of a 3/8" stihl filing kit that I bought about 10 years ago. Had damn good luck untill recently w/the carlton chains,... If there's a better way, then I'm all ears!


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

*Perth Australia*

It's pretty neat to be able to converse w/people around the world. My Air National Guard unit (sub-set of the U.S. Air Force) sent a few B-1b Bombers down there to Sydney years ago for the Airshow. I got screwed out of that trip but I intend to make it sometime here soon, I here it's beautiful there.


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## WoodChuck'r (Feb 28, 2010)

My guess would be that the 3/8" on an 066 would be better for that saw, but as I said I'm guessing.

I've never seen a saw under 100cc's wearing 404 chain though. It's nasty frikkin' chain, but as MC-Dub said, if the saw has the ass it'll pull it.

Maybe a Sling'r Ported or Snellerized '66 will pull 404 chain no problem - it would do it with much less effort than a stock '66 that's for sure.

Buy a brand new loop of each and take some vids.   

:greenchainsaw:


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> My guess would be that the 3/8" on an 066 would be better for that saw, but as I said I'm guessing.
> 
> I've never seen a saw under 100cc's wearing 404 chain though. It's nasty frikkin' chain, but as MC-Dub said, if the saw has the ass it'll pull it.
> 
> ...



What is the difference between those two mods and what do they both entale? I've seen the references, but have never or heard a description of them,... I am planning on buying a slightly hotter sparkplug and getting a better breathing air filter for the 660.


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## WoodChuck'r (Feb 28, 2010)

A "Sling'r Ported" saw is ported by Jasha Reynolds - Tree Sling'r on AS. A "Snellerized" saw is ported by Brad Snelling - blsnelling on AS.

In a nut shell, porting is the process of sending them your saw, them taking it apart and modifying the piston / cylinder by machine and or crafty dremel work to give the saw a considerable increase in power. The cost is usually around $250 - $350 range. After you either pay to have it done, or run a modified saw at a GTG (or what have you), you find that it's really worth the investment. I mean, who wouldn't want their saw to weigh exactly the same with 15% - 25% more power....?? 

My 7900 was ported by Jasha and my 681 was ported by Brad. Both of these guys do excellent work. 


Now how about these 404 / 3/8" vids.  

:greenchainsaw:


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## 7sleeper (Feb 28, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> ...
> Maybe a *Sling'r Ported or Snellerized *'66 will pull 404 chain no problem - it would do it with much less effort than a stock '66 that's for sure.
> ....





Locust Cutter said:


> What is the difference between those two mods and what do they both entale? I've seen the references, but have never or heard a description of them,... I am planning on buying a slightly hotter sparkplug and getting a better breathing air filter for the 660.





There are no differences between the mods per se. They are two people well known here on AS. They are very well respected modders of chainsaws! They do freaky things to chainsaws that they run like from out of this world.

7


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## 7sleeper (Feb 28, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> A "Sling'r Ported" saw is ported by Jasha Reynolds - Tree Sling'r on AS. A "Snellerized" saw is ported by Brad Snelling - blsnelling on AS.
> 
> In a nut shell, porting is the process of sending them your saw, them taking it apart and modifying the piston / cylinder by machine and or crafty dremel work to give the saw a considerable increase in power. The cost is usually around $250 - $350 range. After you either pay to have it done, or run a modified saw at a GTG (or what have you), you find that it's really worth the investment. I mean, who wouldn't want their saw to weigh exactly the same with 15% - 25% more power....??
> 
> ...



Beat me to it! How'd you make it that fast! 

7


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

7sleeper said:


> Beat me to it! How'd you make it that fast!
> 
> 7



I'm going to pick up a 24" .404 semi-chisel (and the appropriate bar/Sprocket combo) here fairly quickly as well as something other than a Carlton in 3/8" full chisel and try to get some video of some Kansas Grown - Osage Orange devastation. I'll post it when I can. I may have to look into porting. I actually pretty happy with the power it has now, although I have run an 088 and a 2100cd that were both a lot of fun,.... I may actually be acquiring that 2100 off of an older friend for a reasonable sum,... 
My wife is going to kill me,...:jawdrop:


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## 7sleeper (Feb 28, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> ...My wife is going to kill me,...:jawdrop:



Don't worry it will be quick and painless. 












I already contacted here to send me all the saws after you passed away!



7


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

7sleeper said:


> Don't worry it will be quick and painless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 AT least they won't waste away in quiet, listless agony,...


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## WoodChuck'r (Feb 28, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> My wife is going to kill me,...:jawdrop:



Hey guys...... 

The CAD is taking over. :hmm3grin2orange: :chainsawguy:

:kilt: :wave:


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Hey guys......
> 
> The CAD is taking over. :hmm3grin2orange: :chainsawguy:
> 
> :kilt: :wave:



Now all I need is a 100 horse loader tractor, a diesel one-ton instead of my gasoline one, a better trailer, a firewood processor, then a flatbed semi to haul more wood with,........ This is getting outta hand,...


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## WoodChuck'r (Feb 28, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> This is getting outta hand




It's only the beginning. :biggrinbounce2:

--

Be sure to send the man rep gentlemen.


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## BobL (Feb 28, 2010)

Locust Cutter said:


> Been flat filing them with a raker depth gauge that was part of a 3/8" stihl filing kit that I bought about 10 years ago. Had damn good luck untill recently w/the carlton chains,... If there's a better way, then I'm all ears!



Unless the Stihl gauge is a progressive raker adjuster then I would look at something else.

The carlton FOP is a better raker gauge, but if you want to make real nice fat chips then consider learning how to fully progressively file rakers. Top pros seem to know how to do this automatically but can't always articulate why they do it, to learn more read the FOP sticky.

I run 3/8 full comp on all my milling saws (441, 076 and 880) from 25 to 60" bars. The wood I cut has a close resemblance to cast iron so the chain has to be just so which is where the progressive raker adjustment makes a big difference. Every other method I've tried just makes way too much powder and not enough chips. 



> It's pretty neat to be able to converse w/people around the world. My Air National Guard unit (sub-set of the U.S. Air Force) sent a few B-1b Bombers down there to Sydney years ago for the Airshow. I got screwed out of that trip but I intend to make it sometime here soon, I here it's beautiful there.



Yeah - lots of desert but we have some interesting trees.


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## 7sleeper (Feb 28, 2010)

BobL said:


> .....



:jawdrop: that sure is a fantastic looking wood!

7


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## Gologit (Feb 28, 2010)

BobL said:


> Top pros seem to know how to do this automatically but can't always articulate why they do it, to learn more read the FOP sticky.



Very true. Good advice.


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## Slamm (Feb 28, 2010)

Full comp is ???? Is the most cutting teeth.
Semi- Skip is less cutting teeth
Full Skip is the least cutting teeth.

Full comp in theory cuts faster due to more teeth, but it lacks proper chip clearance and therefore seems to hang up or waste a lot of horsepower just pulling chips throught the "channel". It also takes longer to sharpen and set rakers. Some say it doesn't dull as quickly, but hitting a rock or dirty wood dulls all chain, period.

Full Skip has the fewest cutting teeth but seems to have a proper "cut to chip clearance ratio" (my opinion). It takes less horsepower to pull and saws usually can stay in their peak horsepower area better without bogging down. There are less teeth to sharpen and rakers to lower.

Semi-Skip is a compromise <-------------- I dislike compromises so I don't use it, LOL.

For hard wood like that hedge using a semi-chisel will likely work better for all day cutting, as its edge, while not a quick initially in cutting, will hold a better edge for longer usually a lot longer.

I therefore prefer a durable setup like Stihl (hardest chain made or longest lasting edge) with a Semi-Chisel cutter for the edge retention design of the rounded cutter and then in a Full-Skip format for good chip clearance and fast resharpening.

My opinion,

Sam


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## thomas72 (Feb 28, 2010)

I run both pitch chains. Most of my bigger saws have .404. Other than the chain staying sharper longer I guess I do not have a rational reason why I like .404 more, but that is what I mostly use on saws that are 90cc plus. I would never put .404 on a saw 70cc and smaller as it is harder for the saws to maintain chain speed.


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## smilin possum (Feb 28, 2010)

Real men with real saws run .404 on big bars. Don't know how it is in your area but .404 is hard to find in ours I have to order all of mine. It ain't cheap but I only run Stihl on mine.


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## mtngun (Feb 28, 2010)

After I posted I thought about your screen name, "Locust Cutter," and wondered, "Gee, perhaps he cuts a lot of locust," duh.  And hedge, too. 

We don't have those species in my neck of the woods, but from all accounts, they are very difficult to cut and they dull chains quickly.

Your Stihl semi-chisel is appropriate for those species. Other than perhaps experimenting with an FOP, it sounds like you are already doing everything right.


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## parrisw (Feb 28, 2010)

Looks like your cutting in some pretty hard wood, how often do you sharpen? Sounds like maybe you should be doing it a little sooner, before the cutter edge gets all messed up too bad. I've run all kinds of chain, currently I'm using up a bunch of older oregon loops, that I just make into the size I need, it works fine for the wood I cut, Oregon LGX is really nice chain, I'd say as nice as Stihl, I also have a couple rolls of Stihl 3/8" one skip and one full comp. I personally wont use anything other then Oregon or Stihl chain, unless I'm ordering from Baileys, I may order a loop of the Baileys Woodland Pro RC, its actually really nice for the money, and its pretty cheap.


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## Slamm (Feb 28, 2010)

smilin possum said:


> Real men with real saws run .404 on big bars. Don't know how it is in your area but .404 is hard to find in ours I have to order all of mine.



Lol, WOW, that post is dripping with manly testosterone. Too bad there isn't much fact in it.

Duh, there is a reason you can't find .404 very easy in your part or most any other part of the country ............. nobody uses it because it is slow and pointless. I hogs up horsepower with little to no advantage over 3/8".

It would be kinda neat if all we had to do to answer questions is answer with "Because real men with real saws (fill in the blank) run it!!!" LOL, what a screwball answer. I'd like to go to the Stihl dealer and tell him to order me some .404 and when he goes to tell me how dumb it is to use it I tell him:

"Because real men with real saws run .404 on big bars. Now order my $h!t or I'll go somewhere else."

Just the facts,

Sam


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 28, 2010)

I think the only justification for using 404 would be in chainsaw lumbermaking. It doesn't seem to stretch or sag as much.
If the OP is disatisfied with 3/8, he's gonna just hate 404. If he doesn't like 3/8, it's probably because he's not cleaning out the gullets or getting it sharp enough.
If 404 was better than 3/8 saw racers would be using it. The only 404 I've seen on a race saw was Rotax's and other large bikesaws, some using 1/2" pitch.
Gypo


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## parrisw (Feb 28, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I think the only justification for using 404 would be in chainsaw lumbermaking. It doesn't seem to stretch or sag as much.
> If the OP is disatisfied with 3/8, he's gonna just hate 404. If he doesn't like 3/8, it's probably because he's not cleaning out the gullets or getting it sharp enough.
> If 404 was better than 3/8 saw racers would be using it. The only 404 I've seen on a race saw was Rotax's and other large bikesaws, some using 1/2" pitch.
> Gypo



I wouldn't use 404 on a chainsaw mill, the saw is loaded enough as it is, and the last thing you want to do is turn more of that nice lumber into sawdust.


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## Locust Cutter (Feb 28, 2010)

I may give that Oregon LGX chain a try and see how it does. I try not to run them too' long w/o sharpening. I sometimes will sharpen them on every fill-up. Otherwise, I'll run them until they the start making more dust than chips, then they come off and a fresh loop goes on. I do clean the wood pitch off them when I sharpen them, after I'm done cutting for the day. 
:chainsawguy::yoyo:


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## MCW (Feb 28, 2010)

Slamm said:


> Duh, there is a reason you can't find .404 very easy in your part or most any other part of the country ............. nobody uses it because it is slow and pointless. I hogs up horsepower with little to no advantage over 3/8".
> 
> Just the facts,
> 
> Sam



Not trying to start an argument but have you ever ran .404" and 3/8" side by side to compare them? You have a couple of saws in your sig with the grunt to utilise it.

Seems to be a lot of people saying .404" is hard to get yet a lot of people have an opinion on how bad it is. As I said earlier in this thread if your saw has the nuts to pull it it will outcut and outwear (by a long way) 3/8" chain.
Reason I'm saying this is that .404" seems to be copping a bad rap here. If it was useless chain I can assure you that the manufacturers wouldn't be making it.

My gut feeling is that a lot of people on AS may have chucked a loop of .404" on a saw not grunty enough to pull it and decided to hate it 

For what it's worth my 3120 will pull .404" semi chisel skip on a 60" bar easily in Aussie hardwood.


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## Burvol (Feb 28, 2010)

OREGON X "IMMITATION" 404 That bores.....404 does not bore worth ####. 

If your really after that stuff, try the immitation 404 that bores.


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## parrisw (Feb 28, 2010)

MCW said:


> Not trying to start an argument but have you ever ran .404" and 3/8" side by side to compare them? You have a couple of saws in your sig with the grunt to utilise it.
> 
> Seems to be a lot of people saying .404" is hard to get yet a lot of people have an opinion on how bad it is. As I said earlier in this thread if your saw has the nuts to pull it it will outcut and outwear (by a long way) 3/8" chain.
> Reason I'm saying this is that .404" seems to be copping a bad rap here. If it was useless chain I can assure you that the manufacturers wouldn't be making it.
> ...



I've run it, and its fine, I just use all 3/8 now, standardize everything. I ran it on my 394 and 066. I just sold 50' of 404 to pioneerguy. I got enough 3/8 to last a long time. 404 is great stuff if you need a more heavy duty chain. I couldn't tell much diff in speed.


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## gmax (Feb 28, 2010)

I use .404" semi chisel on my Dolmar 143, It really rips through hardwood with ease, I find it cuts faster than 3/8 semi chisel on other large saws I use.


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## MCW (Feb 28, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I've run it, and its fine, I just use all 3/8 now, standardize everything. I ran it on my 394 and 066. I just sold 50' of 404 to pioneerguy. I got enough 3/8 to last a long time. 404 is great stuff if you need a more heavy duty chain. I couldn't tell much diff in speed.



Yeah I think the biggest argument for running all 3/8" is to standardise your bars, chains, and sprockets. It certainly wears better than 3/8" and I have a feeling .404" is under rated by a few people on this site.



gmax said:


> I use .404" semi chisel on my Dolmar 143, It really rips through hardwood with ease, I find it cuts faster than 3/8 semi chisel on other large saws I use.



I agree mate. I know a few firewood cutters with 880 Stihls who only use .404" chipper which by all accounts is very hard to source in the US. This is the ultimate in tough chains after carbide. All of my bars over 32" are .404" except for a 42" bar on my mill which I converted to 3/8". I've never had a problem with .404" - I like it


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## dadiaction (Mar 23, 2013)

BobL said:


> Unless the Stihl gauge is a progressive raker adjuster then I would look at something else.
> 
> The carlton FOP is a better raker gauge, but if you want to make real nice fat chips then consider learning how to fully progressively file rakers. Top pros seem to know how to do this automatically but can't always articulate why they do it, to learn more read the FOP sticky.
> 
> ...



Is that jarrah? Beautiful wood!

Am I right to understand that you use 3/8 full comp chain for this work?
I've just bought a Gransberg mill, and was going to use ripping chain as advised by many. 
Love to hear your thoughts!


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## deepsouth (Mar 23, 2013)

A mate who I cut firewood with a lot runs an 066 with a 30" bar with .404 chain. 

It goes alright cutting (when the saw goes) :msp_tongue: and lasts better before it needs sharpening/ swapping compared to me with 3/8 or his smaller 60cc saw running 3/8 chain.


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## CR500 (Mar 23, 2013)

WoodChuck'r said:


> My guess would be that the 3/8" on an 066 would be better for that saw, but as I said I'm guessing.
> 
> I've never seen a saw under 100cc's wearing 404 chain though. It's nasty frikkin' chain, but as MC-Dub said, if the saw has the ass it'll pull it.
> 
> ...



Ported saws???? sounds like a trend that will go out of style lol hahahaha


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## palbin (Mar 23, 2013)

I was thinking of filing Carlton .404 chain (0.058 or 0.063) with 
15/64" file to make it chop more wood - seems there is material 
enough in the chain for that ... . Not so easy to find 15/64 files 
though - much easier with 1/4" it seems ... which is too big ... .

Have tried similar thing on Carlton K1L 0.325 chain intended for 
11/64" - filing it with 3/16 works fine and makes it chop more 
wood ... . At least I think so  .

Thoughts about this  ... ? .


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