# So I gotta ask....



## GilksTreeFelling (Sep 29, 2017)

What is up with these 45* back cuts ? I went through a large site *30acres* earlier this week to get to a good size stick of hardwood *37" rock maple* out for the owner and everywhere I looked were these ugly stumps. Looked like a conventional face with a 45* dowward back cut and little to no hinge wood. I mean dozens of recently cut ones.

Don't get me wrong I'm not a mystical wood cutting god like some of you guys on here some of my back cuts arnt perfect but holy jeepers. Did I miss some sorta of new better technique training ?some of these stumps I'd be worried the trees gonna come back on me if I cut like that.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 29, 2017)

Farmer cuts...

Sime jack ass on the enterweb is teaching this as a safer method. It is not.

The sloping back cut merely splits off or provides a fulcrum to pry the hold wood off.

Stick with a level back cut even if its nit perfect its way safer.


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## Nanuq (Sep 29, 2017)

Ok let me ask......

I saw a video extolling the virtues of the back cut being exactly the same height as the front. Why is that better than it being maybe 2" higher than the front?


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## RandyMac (Sep 29, 2017)




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## Ryan'smilling (Sep 29, 2017)

Nanuq said:


> Ok let me ask......
> 
> I saw a video extolling the virtues of the back cut being exactly the same height as the front. Why is that better than it being maybe 2" higher than the front?



Same height is good because it's easier to visualize how far to cut without cutting through your hinge. Above the face cut is good because it helps ensure that the log won't slide backwards off the stump and get ya. Below the face cut is good if the tree is being pulled over, especially if the line isn't super high; it helps ensure that the bottom of the log won't get pulled off the stump before the canopy goes over.


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## Nanuq (Sep 29, 2017)

Thanks! Clear and concise.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 29, 2017)

Nanuq said:


> Ok let me ask......
> 
> I saw a video extolling the virtues of the back cut being exactly the same height as the front. Why is that better than it being maybe 2" higher than the front?



To be simple many years ago, when a standard face was the norm, the back cut was made an inch or 2 above the face to keep it from back slipping, and to gain a little ground on the slope part that was being sent to the mill.

With a humboldt it eliminates the need to be above the face as the stem will sit down on the slope part preventing back slip, so level is possible and encouraged.

Cutting lower then the face is pointless even if you are pulling or pushing one over, if ya got that much power it will slip the tree no matter what, but if it makes ya feel better go fer it. 


If you plan on cutting for commercial timber, anywhere near the PNW, aim for a level cut or no more then 1" offset, standard or saginaw faces are ridiculed and will cause your logs to get deducts on either length or diameter, unless you take the time to buck em off. If you like a really big or super sloped standard face cut, figure on loosing the 2' or more that is saved by getting that lower stump, cause thats about how much they will deduct at when scaled... 2' of the biggest log in the tree... no problem

but if you're cutting for home use, do what is comfortable and safe, staying a little above even with a humboldt wont hurt anything, as long as ya don't get crazy about it... an inch or 3 is ok, leaving more then that is asking for trouble with lining up the hold wood etc.


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## fool skip (Sep 29, 2017)

Back when I was cutting timber, we would use that sloping backcut if we were going to steal a nice doug fir snag for firewood on the way home. Nobody would blame a log cutter for a mess like that.


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## GilksTreeFelling (Sep 29, 2017)

I grew up in bc little town north of Victoria on the west side of the island so seeing a humbolt is the norm for me while I never had the pleasure of cutting the big west coast wood I understand it's reasoning and dynamics, Its only been since I've lived in the maritimes that I've been exposed to cuts more suited to the small wood here, but the sloping back cut just seems to put way to much risk into an already risky task. So I don't understand it's prevalence really, given so many of us whether production cutters or hobby cutters do or damndest to limit as much risk as possible when we can. 

Sorry guys insomnia gets me rambling


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## Nanuq (Sep 30, 2017)

Thanks gents. *hat tip* I'm a wee novice when it comes to commercial logging so this is all mumbo jumbo to me. I cut a lot for firewood but don't know what to call what I'm doing. Looks like I have lots of reading to do.

Much appreciated!


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## bnmc98 (Sep 30, 2017)

Back cut below face cut is more prone to chair the tree.


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## 2dogs (Sep 30, 2017)

Anyone promoting a sloping back cut is a fool who likes to hear himself talk. A back cut has to be flat to allow the strongest wood to take the tremendous pressure even just one wedge can generate. A sloping cut will bend and flex and offer no support. The bigger the tree the greater the need for a perfect face, back cut, and technique. An old time faller I know took 4 hours to cut down one fire damaged redwood because each little nibble needed to be perfect. He was as patient as Job. (I had turned that tree down earlier).


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## Jeff Lary (Oct 1, 2017)

I have been cutting since I was young and I continue to learn all the time. I have always made my back cut about 2 or so inches above the face cut. Then I was watching some video made by some Swedish Homestead? or something and they recommended cutting in exactly level towards the face when back cutting. I wondered then how many loggers cut "flush" and how many cut the way I try to a couple inches high. In my mind I always thought it kept the likelihood of a tree jumping back off the stump a little lower. Great descriptions great thread.


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## RandyMac (Oct 1, 2017)

Stump shot is overrated.


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## bnmc98 (Oct 1, 2017)

So
I cut flush for smaller wood so I don't have to flush the butt
I cut a little above on the bigger stuff to avoid fiber pull, but I have to flush the butt.
Still saves time overall.

On pistol butt trees I do whatever or just fart around cuz I have to buck it anyways


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## northmanlogging (Oct 1, 2017)

Flush to a touch high, is the aim, but I suck so its generally a crap shoot.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 3, 2017)

Jeff Lary said:


> Great descriptions great thread.


I can be descriptive. May entail some dissecting first.




Jeff Lary said:


> I have been cutting since I was young and I continue to learn all the time


 Good attitude. It's wise to question. 'Time in' alone, doesn't stand for much.
A life of ****ing makes most none a pôrn star.


Jeff Lary said:


> I always thought it kept the likelihood of a tree jumping back off the stump a little lower.


 True! Or to help prevent it from going back over the stump more specifically. A "step" or in more technical terms: Anti-kickback step is still taught.
It's more of a backup up for a back up for a back up, If the tree comes over the stump and strikes the Rookie. He has done at least two things wrong not including the step. Perhaps 5 or 6 things wrong.

Rookie #2 is saved by a conscious step and may not even have known it but still done everything else wrong.
Bottom line: A step can save a really really horrible faller or someone that can't adhere to or there lacking proper procedure and order.
Q) Can a step save a really good faller?
Never

say never.


They still call from a 1/2 to 1" step on Humboldt & Swanson up to 33" Diameter here. Traditional 2" seems standard on Conventional and Birds mouth cuts.

In addition: 2" on Humboldt with upslope with Swanson or west coast Swanson "westcoaster"
(Try avoid uphill falling)

2" Humboldt on small diameter 'against the lean'.

Q) What makes the tree travel back
from its forward motion? Force and/or gravity
1) If the top hits first on the hillside; the spring from the top will send it back.
Gravity may be all it takes especially with snags without branches.
2) falling into objects.

I try to hit the 1/2" to 1" height on Humboldts. 1 1/2" on bar size (36") is proportionate if it's level. No step is acceptable but if they were all like that then your Bull bucker will say something and document it.
Problem with starting level on one side is if your undercut is slightly of or you dip on the back cut then you will undercut your undercut on the farside...and that is not acceptable.

If 'you' are falling a tree and are still caughting your own mistakes then it's a good indication 'you' should be using it and revisiting everything.
Pay closer attention to planning, reading your site, tree assessments, opening up or closed canopy falling. Falling into standing timber... brush out and make room. Fall out your snags, safety trails ( safe side) 2 trail if needed.Working from safe side. Looking up lots, getting away 10 ft minimal from stump or use cover tree. Don't miss your pivot points, cut logs that you are falling on that may extend behind or above the tree... may hit/ throw you or dislodge rock or uproot snags/trees way up the hill. Extra Cut up tree and getting distracted, being in a rush/aim

That's most all about "Going about falling the tree" which is the bigger part.
They^^will all get you as I know first hand. I have been both the guy lacking knowledge as well that horrible faller lacking discipline.
If you miss one thing or do 'one thing'..you are removing your safety net. If you have a near miss or end up wearing wood it's often involves 2 or more mistakes.

As far as Europe goes.....
It's really going to come down to the faller and how he controls his environment.
I haven't ever seen many falling training videos other than some that have been posted on site. I assume most of the emphasis is focused on falling cuts. Learning falling cuts with out the rest probably makes you more dangerous.


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## RandyMac (Oct 3, 2017)

What is this about avoiding uphill falling?


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## Gologit (Oct 3, 2017)

RandyMac said:


> What is this about avoiding uphill falling?



I think they teach them that in school. In the real world if you're running a Cat show and your landings are downhill from the strip...as they should be...you better drop them uphill with the butts toward the landing. You'll hear about it if you don't.
Sometimes they might slide back down the hill at you but that's just part of the deal. Stay on your toes.


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## Jeff Lary (Oct 3, 2017)

I will tell you how numb I am I never really read your screen name till last winter .I thought I was golegit like go-legit. ha ha.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 3, 2017)

RandyMac said:


> What is this about avoiding uphill falling?



"I'll take West Coast Timber Falling for 1000 please Alex"
Q)Faller jacks a 200ft tree off has falling face 180° off the lean down the steep hill

A) "What is: this about avoiding up hill falling"?

Well done and that moves you into the lead

Final jeopardy coming right up!


I will follow suite ..like I said, questions are a good thing.

Coffee break


​


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## bnmc98 (Oct 3, 2017)

I thought the BC Faller training videos I watched a long time ago told people not to fall uphill more than 15 degrees as a rule.
I fall uphill if I need to but I do believe the people who are training people frown on it.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 3, 2017)

bnmc98 said:


> I thought the BC Faller training videos I watched a long time ago told people not to fall uphill more than 15 degrees as a rule.
> I fall uphill if I need to but I do believe the people who are training people frown on it.


Wow I'm impressed. Not to many certified fallers would know that. Had a Certified Faller Supervisor Do a full 23 page evaluation on the hill with me my first day with a company.
It is the same one they use for a certificate or what they used when they had recerts a while ago.
Not 50 questions but about 20 on an I-pad program. He asked me and I said, no more than 15° and he agrees and put in the answer. Next shift I'm doing a double up with another faller and he sits us down and does another evaluation together but mainly just the questions and 5 pic of our stumps each. Well the other faller didn't have a clue or really comprehend the question at first. I answer 15° then they start to discuss it and the supervisor said "15° or 11° or what ever it is"...lol
He didn't even know for sure.
I℅ to 2℅ of Cedar possible grows uphill into your falling face. Sometimes you deal with more.
If I can I try to gouge into the face and deal with it when it's time. If not I have to split the face and work one side for a while bad day when you have 3 of them in a day on a side lay.

We have the rules but it doesn't mean we can't Fall up the hill when needed. We just can't as a practice just like I said about stumps with no steps. It's an acceptable stump under work safe BC (WCB) but the BC forest saftey council have some different rules and the Supervisor's have to play their game. I however read all the 'loopholes' in our occupational help and saftey (OH&S) regulations witch is WCB standards.
You are trusted to have good judgment and it's filed under "overcoming a falling difficulty"
We do it but they can't tell you to do it because that's not what they promote.
You just have to read between the lines. However that's the coast. It's the exception. A modified saw is a good example. It's a double standard.

How's the snow up there?
Hard weather year for you guys!


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## bnmc98 (Oct 3, 2017)

Sounds like wading through the regulations is enough to drive you to drinking.

We got 18" at the end of Sept. We had to bust drifts with the CAT to get over the top and down lower to keep working. Everything turned to mud.
Melting now, but we got another 4" last night. I have a feeling it will be a long winter.

Global warming is never around when you need it, only around when the environmentalists need it.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 4, 2017)

I usually fell trees uphill. Granted not much logging we do is by hand.

Much easier to skid going down the hill vs driving to pull the tree up.


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

Normally hand falling I'll quarter down hill and yard by the top.

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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

RandyMac said:


> What is this about avoiding uphill falling?


I wrote some ways to mitigate the situation with some safer cuts and reasoning behind it.
Instead of me writing something lengthy that you are just going to dismiss anyway... I'll put the ball back in your court and ask you Randy: Do you think it holds no higher risk on any hill?


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## madhatte (Oct 4, 2017)

Gologit said:


> if you're running a Cat show



Are Cat shows the norm anywhere still? Seems to me the ground disturbance phobia types would have them extinct by now.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

madhatte said:


> Are Cat shows the norm anywhere still? Seems to me the ground disturbance phobia types would have them extinct by now.


 He's stuck in the 20th Century somewhere pulling high lead with a cat. I believe thats his reference "real world" I believe that was the successor to the locomotive which succeeded the bull which powered the earliest highlead. I'll have to ask him. He'll know.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

The "real world" is extinct. Now we are left with education & regulation


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## madhatte (Oct 4, 2017)

Well, no, he's right. In a Cat show, falling uphill makes sense. I'm just curious if such an operation is completely replaced with yarders and skidders and all.


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

madhatte said:


> Well, no, he's right. In a Cat show, falling uphill makes sense. I'm just curious if such an operation is completely replaced with yarders and skidders and all.


We still run a grapple high track skidder they're super common here and all wood is put down hill butt uphill.

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## Gologit (Oct 4, 2017)

madhatte said:


> Are Cat shows the norm anywhere still? Seems to me the ground disturbance phobia types would have them extinct by now.



Cat logging is alive and well. It's a matter of semantics too. If it's not a helicopter or a yarder side it's generally referred to as a Cat show even if it's just rubber tired skidders. A lot of times you'll see a grapple Cat bunching for the skidders. That can really speed things up, especially if your skidder operators aren't the best.
The cost of yarder logging or helicopters makes ground lead shows very attractive. If you set up your strips and landings and skidroads just right you can get good production.
As a rule I see more Cat sides on private ground than on government timber.
And yes, the ground disturbance people don't like it. Too bad. Most of them don't like logging in any way, shape, or form.


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## Gologit (Oct 4, 2017)

On the subject of uphill falling...You do whatever safely gets the production. Uphill falling isn't my favorite but neither is taking twice as long to get the wood to the landing.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 4, 2017)

I've never seen a yarder in person.

We cut with a tracked feller buncher, skid to a landing with grapple skidders, delimb with a stroke delimber and when the logs are needed truck away on a log truck with self loader.

Same type of logging in Maine as well. Some outfits run forwarders and processors doing CTL vs tree length though.

Ground disturbance doesn't really matter. The timber sales we have done they have used roads and skid trails we put in as ATV trails or moose trails.
We do a fair bit of clearing too, like the job I'm on now is clearing about 120 acres for a farm.

Go back on a logging job in 5 years and can't even find the skid trails if no one has been driving on them, it grows in quickly.


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

Gologit said:


> Cat logging is alive and well. It's a matter of semantics too. If it's not a helicopter or a yarder side it's generally referred to as a Cat show even if it's just rubber tired skidders. A lot of times you'll see a grapple Cat bunching for the skidders. That can really speed things up, especially if your skidder operators aren't the best.
> The cost of yarder logging or helicopters makes ground lead shows very attractive. If you set up your strips and landings and skidroads just right you can get good production.
> As a rule I see more Cat sides on private ground than on government timber.
> And yes, the ground disturbance people don't like it. Too bad. Most of them don't like logging in any way, shape, or form.


Have you guys had any of the tethering make it down your way yet?

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## Gologit (Oct 4, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Have you guys had any of the tethering make it down your way yet?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



There are two companies using them in this area. I've heard they're getting mixed results while they're figuring out the best way to use them.
I haven't seen them myself but I can see where they might do some good.
I don't know if I'd care to be the one hanging off of that machine, though.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

Gologit said:


> I think they teach them that in school.


I didn't go to cutting school. I Grandfatherd. Certs didn't start to 2005 So I just had to register and pay
then get their flip books. If you qualified then you could still fall under your registry # . We had up to end of July '06 to get done. They said that was it. It was then or never for Grandfathering in . Many hung up the saw that couldn't keep the quality or didn't want the BS.

They did open it up again.
If 'you' have a work permit or even private insurance with supporting proof of past experience then you can fall here. Then they couldn't do to much to the falling contractor. It's another loophole In work safe OH&S regs. This had to be constructed in order for the trainee's to work because after a 30 day course they have to do 180 documented days with journals ect before they can do their written and practical. So
whoever it would be...they would have to know what they were doing obviously and they would just be signed off to work without a ticket on their own quarter. As long as the paper work is getting done.


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

Gologit said:


> There are two companies using them in this area. I've heard they're getting mixed results while they're figuring out the best way to use them.
> I haven't seen them myself but I can see where they might do some good.
> I don't know if I'd care to be the one hanging off of that machine, though.


I know of the two companies around here that build the setups one uses a 527 track skidder with a swinger tethered for yarding now, well the other is using a tigercat 635 bogie drive skidder with the large arch tethered.

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## madhatte (Oct 4, 2017)

It's all skidders here, I've never heard it referred to verbally or on paper as a Cat operation. Note that when I say "here", I refer specifically to the 100K acres of ground where I work. Everywhere even 5 miles off of our property in any direction that isn't water is definitely yarder ground. We're pretty nearly the only flat, dry piece of timberland that isn't under suburbs in these parts.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 4, 2017)

They are currently shovel and cat logging the piece next to the house here, a job I wish I could have got...

There is enough of the low land timber left that cat skidding is still viable, mostly DNR or large private ground. There is an outfit here in town that does small parcels with just a dozer, they swear by it, even though they own a skidder?

The tethering is around, but ya mixed results, at least one outfit I know of is giving it a go, the operators are nervous of course.

Personally I think its just a matter of time before some sort of catastrophic failure happens and someone gets killed that they realize its a bad idea. Is it productive yes, is it safe... jury's out...

Mostly its all yarders all the time though.


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> They are currently shovel and cat logging the piece next to the house here, a job I wish I could have got...
> 
> There is enough of the low land timber left that cat skidding is still viable, mostly DNR or large private ground. There is an outfit here in town that does small parcels with just a dozer, they swear by it, even though they own a skidder?
> 
> ...


I know a few of the operators and owners of the tethering setups yes there's been a few little issues but with the level of required maintenance lines only being allowed for certain amount of time it's pretty safe. I've seen it done first hand there's two main ways for clear cutting around here one is a single main line the other has two lines and drums. The thinning has the T winch setup then the built into the machines. If you want info on what's allowed look at OSHA I'm not sure what Washington has for rules but typically Oregon is much more strict on rules for safety in the woods then Washington.

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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> They are currently shovel and cat logging the piece next to the house here, a job I wish I could have got...
> 
> There is enough of the low land timber left that cat skidding is still viable, mostly DNR or large private ground. There is an outfit here in town that does small parcels with just a dozer, they swear by it, even though they own a skidder?
> 
> ...


Do you know which system they're going with Summit Attachment or Tractionline?

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## northmanlogging (Oct 4, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Do you know which system they're going with Summit Attachment or Tractionline?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



not entirely sure, got to BSing with one of the guys... never mentioned what the machines etc.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

I think I went too far in time.
Just three years before the chainsaw.
I believe the first saws were electric but limited range.

Queen Charlotte Islands.
and Bute inlet 1933
I know a guy really well that broke in Falling in the Charlotte's at 18.
with Crown Zellerbach in '68.
Said the biggest was a Western red Cedar in '69 that measured 22ft
If that's true that would be 3ft bigger than the current champion in NW WA. Second is about the same in Dia
and very close in distance on the south tip or Van I


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

Here's one of C&C setups, not sure how many they are running now but last time I saw one of the owners they had 4 running 2 with grapple saws then 2 with hot saws. 
Then a good family friend has two of these with intermediate saw heads.

Both companies and the owners we've known as a family for well over 60 years both will tell you that having the cable there will make you feel safer they always have tension on them.

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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

There is some of BC interior wet belt

Fun to watch but they can have that multi activity hot logging chit.
Looking by the Fallers V-neck shirt then maybe it's in the '80?
Looks like the hamster fell asleep at the wheel with that one faller for a while. Didn't look like he was looking up and wasn't going to move back one step.

I can believe 50 people would died per year here


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## madhatte (Oct 4, 2017)

Cool videos! 

I've never seen tethering done in person. I'd like to. I'm guessing that it's cheaper and more efficient that a yarder on moderate ground and in smaller timber?


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

madhatte said:


> Cool videos!
> 
> I've never seen tethering done in person. I'd like to. I'm guessing that it's cheaper and more efficient that a yarder on moderate ground and in smaller timber?


Faster, cheaper, they can shovel the wood as well, then in a yarder setting it's better setup for a grapple yarder less guys on the ground means it's safer too.

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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

Cool to See Skeens.
It's a bitter sweet feeling.
You can't stop technology.
The Remote cat holding on to the buncher is south east Island about half hour from where I was raised.

Won't be a need for hand fallers next time around


I had a older customer telling me about it 7 months ago.

I know of the guy credited at the end of the video with the first remote cat I only met him a few time but hung out with his younger brother. Lots of friends worked for him for years in the Charlotte's. He had 5 logging companies there. The guys would fly back to town in his private jet.
Some people sure know how to make the money.


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## Skeans (Oct 4, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Cool to See Skeens.
> It's a bitter sweet feeling.
> You can't stop technology.
> The Remote cat holding on to the buncher is south east Island about half hour from where I was raised.
> ...


Down here in Kelso Wa is one of the manufacturers and then one place that brings in the double drum setups. That said I've seen a remote cat setups at the Pape in Kelso our local Deere dealer someone had ordered earlier this year of all of them I'm not sure I'd buy any of them I understand where the guys are coming from but at some point are you really getting ahead any?

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## northmanlogging (Oct 4, 2017)

Ya all ever have an RC car wig out on ya? 

or drop a tree on a tight cable.

or just a random material failure.

how about a cocky operator that believes he can push it just a little farther?


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 4, 2017)

Or get drunk or lie to you or make a play on your ol' lady

Frickin loggers...they can invent that but not the remote GF


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## madhatte (Oct 5, 2017)

It's weird to see them cutting stuff that hasn't even really started stem exclusion yet. I don't understand that market at all. I'm starting to feel old-ish -- stuff is moving pretty quick. When I started in this business in the early 90's, the spotted owl was just shutting things down. I bailed in the late 90's when the contract end of timber cruising wasn't paying (a lot of that was my fault, of course) and did 7 years in the Navy. When I got out, I finished school, and got this job. Since then, I've been on the same piece of ground for 10 years. Before the Navy, I was never in the same place for more than a couple of weeks. I feel like I've missed a lot, technology-wise, but I sure do know these 100K acres well. There are a couple of pieces I've cruised 4 times now for various reasons. I'm glad to have this forum as a resource because I've pulled a lot of ideas from here into my timber sales. I'm gonna see if I can't find a way to plan a sale using either tethers or corridors. We haven't done either and I bet we have a few places where those techniques make stuff possible that we can't do otherwise, and which still don't require a full yarder show. Thanks, y'all.


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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> Or get drunk or lie to you or make a play on your ol' lady
> 
> Frickin loggers...they can invent that but not the remote GF


The next step is get the operator off the hill completely like cat has already done at that base on the east coast completely remote operated from 20 miles away.

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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya all ever have an RC car wig out on ya?
> 
> or drop a tree on a tight cable.
> 
> ...



Have you ever seen these setups or the requirements on the guys running them?
Electronics are good for a mile distance, here they're no longer all to cut over the cable, too cocky the tail machine has a rip cord that if it lift 1/2" the whole thing shuts down and you're walking up the hill to check it over as well as restart. If the electronics have any issues talking The tail machine is shut down from memory as well. The reporting on these sides is nuts every little thing that goes wrong is logged in the computer and OSHA inspects these every 6 months here so the reporting is a must. The cable has a hour limit as well every week being unspooled for inspection all old cable must be present for OSHA inspection. This isn't a little cable skidder where you can get away with splicing stuff together it's people's lives that are hanging in the balance here.

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## northmanlogging (Oct 5, 2017)

Ya I get that.

So a half a million for each machine to potentially save what? Some L+I payments, get some more production, and put yet more people out of work?

All on the hopes that a computer and "good" maintenance are going to be enough.

Also I've had radios bug out from 10' away, let alone 20 miles. 

And further, just because your not allowed doesn't mean some **** isn't going to try, or that trees have a mind of their own.

You seem dead set on trying this garbage out, go for it, tell us what you think. Contrary to what I put out on the enterweb, I'm all for change and improvement, but I'm not for needless, expensive, unproven, potentially unsafe or wasteful change.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 5, 2017)

speaking of half a million per machine how long till that machine is paid for anyway? 4-5 years? and then you start seeing any real profit? likely not because the maintenance is going to be outrageous. So then what, drop another cool million on new machines?


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## Gologit (Oct 5, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Have you ever seen these setups or the requirements on the guys running them?
> Electronics are good for a mile distance, here they're no longer all to cut over the cable, too cocky the tail machine has a rip cord that if it lift 1/2" the whole thing shuts down and you're walking up the hill to check it over as well as restart. If the electronics have any issues talking The tail machine is shut down from memory as well. The reporting on these sides is nuts every little thing that goes wrong is logged in the computer and OSHA inspects these every 6 months here so the reporting is a must. The cable has a hour limit as well every week being unspooled for inspection all old cable must be present for OSHA inspection. This isn't a little cable skidder where you can get away with splicing stuff together it's people's lives that are hanging in the balance here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



That's all well and good but what happens when things don't go as planned? What happens when the technology fails?
At what point do we say that the risks involved don't justify the effort and the cost?
I've been around machinery all my life. Machinery fails. I don't care how much research and development has gone into a complicated piece of equipment, there will be a point when some invisible genie unzips his pants and once again pisses all over the pillar of science. 
You have a man hanging out there at the end of that tether. He willingly takes the risks into account but if it fails will his loss of life be considered acceptable? And by whom?
Another point is that it's the loggers, not the mill owners or the property owners, who are being required to bear the cost of the equipment. The logger, the person who works on the thinnest of profit margins, is asked to take the greatest risk both financially and from a safety standpoint. This needs to change.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 5, 2017)

[QUOTE=" there will be a point when some invisible genie unzips his pants and once again pisses all over the pillar of science"[/QUOTE]

Priceless wisdom right there


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 5, 2017)

nscoyote said:


> I grew up in bc little town north of Victoria on the west side of the island so seeing a humbolt is the norm for me while I never had the pleasure of cutting the big west coast wood I understand it's reasoning and dynamics,



You must have been from Port Renfrew? Then I have a question from you.

Was it you who did the pushin'... left the stains up on the cushion...
and the footprints on the dashboard upside down?...
Was it you you stray wood pecker... who got in to my Rebecca?...
Then you better leave this town!

"Oh yes it was I who did the pushin'....left the stains up on the cushion...
and the footprints on the dashboard upside down..
but ever since I got into your Daughter...
I've had trouble passing water...

So I think we are even all around"

"Reasoning & dynamics"
My Grandma could cut green trees
but after 88 her ability to stand on a springboard rapidly diminished.


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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

Gologit said:


> That's all well and good but what happens when things don't go as planned? What happens when the technology fails?
> At what point do we say that the risks involved don't justify the effort and the cost?
> I've been around machinery all my life. Machinery fails. I don't care how much research and development has gone into a complicated piece of equipment, there will be a point when some invisible genie unzips his pants and once again pisses all over the pillar of science.
> You have a man hanging out there at the end of that tether. He willingly takes the risks into account but if it fails will his loss of life be considered acceptable? And by whom?
> Another point is that it's the loggers, not the mill owners or the property owners, who are being required to bear the cost of the equipment. The logger, the person who works on the thinnest of profit margins, is asked to take the greatest risk both financially and from a safety standpoint. This needs to change.


At what point haven't we already been doing the same with many guys on the ground cutting by hand or under a tower?

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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> speaking of half a million per machine how long till that machine is paid for anyway? 4-5 years? and then you start seeing any real profit? likely not because the maintenance is going to be outrageous. So then what, drop another cool million on new machines?


Most of these guys pay off a buncher faster then you think, my last harvester was over 400k we had it paid for in under 3 years, the tethering setups are no where as bad as that for price. I've have to be yo-yoed up and down a hill before it's not easy especially when someone is on a cat pulling you up a hill vs this that's an assist less damage. Maintenance I'd bet is no different then a tower or a swing yarder speaking of that what does a new one cost last I heard well north of a million so what's more cost effective in the end? When you talk prices a harvester like I run or what 1270 runs are nutty expensive well the clear cutting equipment is cheap comparatively, a forwarder and harvester of a certain make will 1.2 million for two machines.

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## Gologit (Oct 5, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> [QUOTE=" there will be a point when some invisible genie unzips his pants and once again pisses all over the pillar of science"



Priceless wisdom right there[/QUOTE]

I'd like to take credit for that but I can't. I paraphrased Ernest K. Gann in his book Fate is The Hunter. He was talking about mechanical things that go wrong with aircraft, suddenly and for no apparent reason.
It applies to logging, too.


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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

Gologit said:


> Priceless wisdom right there



I'd like to take credit for that but I can't. I paraphrased Ernest K. Gann in his book Fate is The Hunter. He was talking about mechanical things that go wrong with aircraft, suddenly and for no apparent reason.
It applies to logging, too.[/QUOTE]
I heard that saying from a guy that was in the NTSB that was giving us a presentation about safety and blame where to go from there.

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## Westboastfaller (Oct 5, 2017)

Skeans said:


> At what point haven't we already been doing the same with many guys on the ground cutting by hand or under a tower?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


 So how would you get the wood out if say it was a long right- of -way. Still use a skider where possible? What's a forwarder? Hoe chucking or could be the skider also?
I realize it takes time to learn but It seems it's going to be a fair bit slower than cutting flat.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 5, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Most of these guys pay off a buncher faster then you think, my last harvester was over 400k we had it paid for in under 3 years, the tethering setups are no where as bad as that for price. I've have to be yo-yoed up and down a hill before it's not easy especially when someone is on a cat pulling you up a hill vs this that's an assist less damage. Maintenance I'd bet is no different then a tower or a swing yarder speaking of that what does a new one cost last I heard well north of a million so what's more cost effective in the end? When you talk prices a harvester like I run or what 1270 runs are nutty expensive well the clear cutting equipment is cheap comparatively, a forwarder and harvester of a certain make will 1.2 million for two machines.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Not to start a pissing match or anything, but whens the last time anyone here's even seen a NEW yarder? Most of whats running around here are Madil, Skagit, or Thunderbird and those are rare, madils and skagits ceased production in the 80's (to be fair Madil is up and running again, and thunderbird bought out skagit) either way, 30+ year old machines still getting the job done. Though the Kollers, and a few other Austrian companies are making a crack at it, they don't seem to be taken seriously out here.

Whether or not you get into tethering your still going to need a yarder or a grapple cat/skidder, on top of the tether, the buncher, processor and loader

That's a whole lotta iron to just go loggin.

Anyway, go get one, seriously, make it work and then crunch the numbers at the end of the year.


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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> So how would you get the wood out if say it was a long right- of -way. Still use a skider where possible? What's a forwarder? Hoe chucking or could be the skider also?
> I realize it takes time to learn but It seems it's going to be a fair bit slower than cutting flat.



They were hanging out to almost 2000' clear cutting roughly a 5 acre block a day on the line. Then yarding they were tethering a tigercat bogie skidder then the other company is tethering a 527 and another is dropping gps marks for a radio grapple. A forwarder is a machine typically used for short wood but some have added rear extensions for handling 36' or 40' logs another guy is trying a clambunk forwarder that's tethered off the front instead of the back.

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## Skeans (Oct 5, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Not to start a pissing match or anything, but whens the last time anyone here's even seen a NEW yarder? Most of whats running around here are Madil, Skagit, or Thunderbird and those are rare, madils and skagits ceased production in the 80's (to be fair Madil is up and running again, and thunderbird bought out skagit) either way, 30+ year old machines still getting the job done. Though the Kollers, and a few other Austrian companies are making a crack at it, they don't seem to be taken seriously out here.
> 
> Whether or not you get into tethering your still going to need a yarder or a grapple cat/skidder, on top of the tether, the buncher, processor and loader
> 
> ...


If I remember right a guy down here bought a brand new Madill two years ago through Modern. I was told that Summit is building a new yarder and that another yarder has been imported for testing by one of the tethering outfits it's a completely hydraulic setup with no guys on the ground it uses GPS pins with a grapple and camera in the cab.

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## northmanlogging (Oct 6, 2017)

no guys on a yarder? Thats a new one.


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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> no guys on a yarder? Thats a new one.


Just the guy in the cab this is a grapple setup with a GPS and camera setup in it they're doing anything they can to get guys off the ground they can.

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## northmanlogging (Oct 6, 2017)

oh... i was thinking guy lines... kinda of important with a proper yarder... still though remote/robotic is crap anyway you look at it. less and less work for humans every year.


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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> oh... i was thinking guy lines... kinda of important with a proper yarder... still though remote/robotic is crap anyway you look at it. less and less work for humans every year.


The cost of labor and insurance has drove this Oregon isn't far behind BC in some of those aspects.

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## madhatte (Oct 6, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Not to start a pissing match or anything, but whens the last time anyone here's even seen a NEW yarder?



Therre was a new (I think) Madill (? Thunderbird?) sitting in the yard next to Service Saw in Chehalis not too long ago. There's a Thunderbird yoder just north of Grand Mound in a yard too that also looks new. I guess they could be rebuilds, though. I'm no expert. I just try to pay attention to what's going on around me. Oh, and as a market indication maybe, my most recent sale sold yesterday for $641.50/mmbf which is the highest I've seen here in a decade. That particular sale has a mess of timing restrictions and wildlife concerns as well as some terrain, so I was honestly surprised it went for that much.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 6, 2017)

madhatte said:


> Therre was a new (I think) Madill (? Thunderbird?) sitting in the yard next to Service Saw in Chehalis not too long ago. There's a Thunderbird yoder just north of Grand Mound in a yard too that also looks new. I guess they could be rebuilds, though. I'm no expert. I just try to pay attention to what's going on around me. Oh, and as a market indication maybe, my most recent sale sold yesterday for $641.50/mmbf which is the highest I've seen here in a decade. That particular sale has a mess of timing restrictions and wildlife concerns as well as some terrain, so I was honestly surprised it went for that much.



That seems stupid high? As doug fir isn't going for a whole lot more then that. 750 800 per 1k

But the if the can do it good fer them


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## GilksTreeFelling (Oct 6, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> You must have been from Port Renfrew? Then I have a question from you.
> 
> Was it you who did the pushin'... left the stains up on the cushion...
> and the footprints on the dashboard upside down?...
> ...


Sooke actually, but I think I remember one or two Rebecca's I may have gone a round or three with


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 6, 2017)

Skeans said:


> They were hanging out to almost 2000' clear cutting roughly a 5 acre block a day on the line. Then yarding they were tethering a tigercat bogie skidder then the other company is tethering a 527 and another is dropping gps marks for a radio grapple. A forwarder is a machine typically used for short wood but some have added rear extensions for handling 36' or 40' logs another guy is trying a clambunk forwarder that's tethered off the front instead of the back.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk




OK that clears a lot up. Thanks
from the examples.
Some of the video's I looked at I just didn't see the speed for two pieces of equipment. I realize they are still getting used to it. One of the advantages I thought at first it had over a Hand Faller was the ability to pile into a skid of sort.
That definitely is not the way to do it at all though. You definitely don't want to slow down 'front end' Not to mention it would be a poor saftey practice... if, you know.. "down came baby, cradle and all".

"5 Acres" 
"hanging out to almost 2000ft "
There is lots of variables involved.

Any more specs, facts, particulars for a numbers guy please? 
I'm assuming there isn't rock faces, huge cedar stumps, multi slope faces & creeks everywhere.

How about Species, Diversity, Diameter, spacing,planted/consistant, 
voids, average run angle, reach, passes, hours, working from both sides down then one side up? Or would that cost more time opening up all the time when you don't have too? Probably eh? The other side to that is in the case of ROB base, you wouldn't have to move until you came back up in cases where it may be more crucial. Is it worth using your max reach? I'm assuming it would eat to much time up?
I think that's it..lol
I know, saw hands have a lot of questions. I guess some of those answers would be a "sometimes thing" You got to know when and when not too.

I suppose steeper narrow fingers at the sides of the block and area's of the bottom that may not line up will have to be hand felled. They should positively have all that engineered before hand will strict consequences
If any tracks trespass. I totally agree with what Northman is getting at. If there is a will there is a way. If there is a small piece at the side with no ROB base or its a big hassle for what it's worth and someone thinks it's going to save them big time and money if they can crib a low side and there home free into the flat corner. I'm sure that won't change the evolvement but it's a rule that needs to come in sooner rather than later because it will come in after a senseless fatality or two. that I'm sure we can all agree on.


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## madhatte (Oct 6, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> That seems stupid high? As doug fir isn't going for a whole lot more then that. 750 800 per 1k
> 
> But the if the can do it good fer them



My sentiments exactly. We're even getting a road built and a couple of culverts installed out of the deal. I don't see how it pencils out but I know it must because the bidder is a sharp cookie who's bought a bunch of sales here.


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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> OK that clears a lot up. Thanks
> from the examples.
> Some of the video's I looked at I just didn't see the speed for two pieces of equipment. I realize they are still getting used to it. One of the advantages I thought at first it had over a Hand Faller was the ability to pile into a skid of sort.
> That definitely is not the way to do it at all though. You definitely don't want to slow down 'front end' Not to mention it would be a poor saftey practice... if, you know.. "down came baby, cradle and all".
> ...



Down here they are piling for skidding or yarding for lack for better terms bunching. Old growth stumps here are all the board cut stumps so yes, old growth logs yes, you always when clear cutting cut from one side to roughly 90 degrees it speeds up cycle times, rock faces included down where the Kiwis are they drop these same machines off rock bluffs on these exact setups, multi face or pitch hills are down as well, here's it's alder, cedar, Doug fir, hemlock, maple, spruce. Last I had heard both manufacturers down here had sold over 30 of these each with more orders coming. Max reach will depend on the machine most are running tigercat 855 and 870, the 855 has just shy of 36' of reach and they said it's no issue reaching out with it on 80 percent slopes. Here's a big one for you guys they dropped one off a bluff killed the engine and pulled it up just with the winches this isn't a new thing just new to North America it's been done in Europe and Australia New Zealand for almost 10 years. They were talking about no fallers on company ground by next year for good.

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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

madhatte said:


> My sentiments exactly. We're even getting a road built and a couple of culverts installed out of the deal. I don't see how it pencils out but I know it must because the bidder is a sharp cookie who's bought a bunch of sales here.


I know sometimes on private ground a mill will bid a job a land owner a higher price for the stumpage then what the contractor gets.

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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

Westboastfaller said:


> OK that clears a lot up. Thanks
> from the examples.
> Some of the video's I looked at I just didn't see the speed for two pieces of equipment. I realize they are still getting used to it. One of the advantages I thought at first it had over a Hand Faller was the ability to pile into a skid of sort.
> That definitely is not the way to do it at all though. You definitely don't want to slow down 'front end' Not to mention it would be a poor saftey practice... if, you know.. "down came baby, cradle and all".
> ...


I was told up where you guys are it's cheaper to have a guy in a buncher cutting an hour then having a certified faller is that true?

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## northmanlogging (Oct 6, 2017)

madhatte said:


> My sentiments exactly. We're even getting a road built and a couple of culverts installed out of the deal. I don't see how it pencils out but I know it must because the bidder is a sharp cookie who's bought a bunch of sales here.



Then I would have to say someone missed something, or a bad cruiz report maybe? Road building isn't cheap, so you would think unless its a huge project it wouldn't pan out to bid so high, unless there is a big patch of high grade in the middle you folks missed? Or a bunch of ceder, ceder is going for 1200 or higher, mostly higher, and ALTA is down in Morton so 1375-1775 per 1k?


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## 1270d (Oct 6, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Then I would have to say someone missed something, or a bad cruiz report maybe? Road building isn't cheap, so you would think unless its a huge project it wouldn't pan out to bid so high, unless there is a big patch of high grade in the middle you folks missed? Or a bunch of ceder, ceder is going for 1200 or higher, mostly higher, and ALTA is down in Morton so 1375-1775 per 1k?



Just remember not all price sheets are created equal. There are guys here who pay contractors more per ton to cut their wood than the contractor could get himself on the open market. One of the mill foresters said that they (the mill) created a few monsters when they issued some of the big supply contracts.


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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

1270d said:


> Just remember not all price sheets are created equal. There are guys here who pay contractors more per ton to cut their wood than the contractor could get himself on the open market. One of the mill foresters said that they (the mill) created a few monsters when they issued some of the big supply contracts.


Exactly even here there's a few different price sheets just for different contractors my last export was 950 per thousand

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## madhatte (Oct 6, 2017)

This is DOD land, and it's all skidder ground. Steep skidder ground, but skidder ground. This will be a 3-person crew not counting the log truck. Not a lot of overhead. Lean and efficient. DF only on this sale except for road and landing construction.



1270d said:


> There are guys here who pay contractors more per ton to cut their wood than the contractor could get himself on the open market.



You might be on to something there. I'm not privy to that information at all.


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## Skeans (Oct 6, 2017)

madhatte said:


> This is DOD land, and it's all skidder ground. Steep skidder ground, but skidder ground. This will be a 3-person crew not counting the log truck. Not a lot of overhead. Lean and efficient. DF only on this sale except for road and landing construction.
> 
> 
> 
> You might be on to something there. I'm not privy to that information at all.


Would you like me to take some pictures tomorrow of our long log thinning stuff setup for a grapple cat and forwarder for pulp? This is a 2 man setup not including a driver.

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## madhatte (Oct 7, 2017)

Absolutely. I'm always into seeing equipment.


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## Skeans (Oct 7, 2017)

Here would be the perfect setup for tethering in my book do all of it at once only thing I'd change would be put a dangle head on it for processing at the top of the hill.

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## madhatte (Oct 7, 2017)

I can see it. Q: what would you do with a stray punkin, though, with no yarder to get it to the landing?


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## Skeans (Oct 7, 2017)

madhatte said:


> I can see it. Q: what would you do with a stray punkin, though, with no yarder to get it to the landing?


How large are you thinking? Say a 7000 sized head will process up to a 26" tree I'd get it in the clam, bring it up to the landing depending on size either get the head on the log and basically walk it down the log to process or hand buck till I got to a processable size.

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## bitzer (Oct 7, 2017)

I think the tethering thing is cool for the sake of advancing technology. On the other hand you lose jobs in the industry. On another hand how many guys really want to work hard anymore? That's a big problem on this side. Getting fresh faces in the woods who know how to work smart, efficient, and can handle the daily wear and tear. Personally I think it's stupid finding more and more expensive ways to cut less and less expensive wood. One of the two other hand cutting crews I know of in the area just went mechanized. The other crew only work half the year and are hacks. When I told my wife he bought a processor the first thing she's says is "he caved huh?" That's the way I think about it. My skidder has been paid for for three years now and the only electrical on it runs through the batteries, starter, alternator, and heater. Here if you buy a processor plan on a double bunk and a truck. There's no way around it. The pulp market is good for **** too and this year has been a wet one. Maybe when I'm old and worn out I will go mechanized, but I just don't see making any money. Mills do have more wiggle room on price when you get to know them and you're not just Joe blow off the street. My Mills owner told me he would rather see a loss then lose out on purchasing logs. At least the mill keeps moving and jobs keep going.


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## 1270d (Oct 7, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I think the tethering thing is cool for the sake of advancing technology. On the other hand you lose jobs in the industry. On another hand how many guys really want to work hard anymore? That's a big problem on this side. Getting fresh faces in the woods who know how to work smart, efficient, and can handle the daily wear and tear. Personally I think it's stupid finding more and more expensive ways to cut less and less expensive wood. One of the two other hand cutting crews I know of in the area just went mechanized. The other crew only work half the year and are hacks. When I told my wife he bought a processor the first thing she's says is "he caved huh?" That's the way I think about it. My skidder has been paid for for three years now and the only electrical on it runs through the batteries, starter, alternator, and heater. Here if you buy a processor plan on a double bunk and a truck. There's no way around it. The pulp market is good for **** too and this year has been a wet one. Maybe when I'm old and worn out I will go mechanized, but I just don't see making any money. Mills do have more wiggle room on price when you get to know them and you're not just Joe blow off the street. My Mills owner told me he would rather see a loss then lose out on purchasing logs. At least the mill keeps moving and jobs keep going.



We wouldn't be nearly as mechanized if the type of timber you have existed up here. It used to, back in those days a guy could buy a new skidder and pay it off in a couple years. Now it's like mowing grass at 40+ acres a week for our little crew. Most of the commercial timberland is owned by investment groups that demand higher and higher returns. Only way to provide those returns is to cut smaller and smaller diameter logs. So we do.


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## madhatte (Oct 7, 2017)

Skeans said:


> How large are you thinking? Say a 7000 sized head will process up to a 26" tree I'd get it in the clam, bring it up to the landing depending on size either get the head on the log and basically walk it down the log to process or hand buck till I got to a processable size.



26" is common enough. I've definitely seen good wood longbutted and left in the sticks because the mill wouldn't take oversize. I'm OK with that; it counts toward coarse woody accumulation. God knows I don't want to piss off the spotted owl folks.


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## Skeans (Oct 7, 2017)

Here's some of how we've done thinning past vs now, the first picture is of a stand we've gone through 3 or 4 times the others are of what we're doing now with a forwarder and fixed grapple cat.





























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## madhatte (Oct 7, 2017)

Ah, good clean work. Looks like the landowner missed the first precommercial thinning window but this'll put everything back on track.


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## Skeans (Oct 7, 2017)

madhatte said:


> Ah, good clean work. Looks like the landowner missed the first precommercial thinning window but this'll put everything back on track.


This is my own personal land we have 1000 acres out here but we've been busy and have too many thinning we have to get caught up on.

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## bitzer (Oct 7, 2017)

1270d said:


> We wouldn't be nearly as mechanized if the type of timber you have existed up here. It used to, back in those days a guy could buy a new skidder and pay it off in a couple years. Now it's like mowing grass at 40+ acres a week for our little crew. Most of the commercial timberland is owned by investment groups that demand higher and higher returns. Only way to provide those returns is to cut smaller and smaller diameter logs. So we do.



Yeah I know. If you don't have the size wood to support it it doesn't work. I get that. Hand cutting pulp is like banging your head against a wall. I hate doing it but the sawlogs keep the rest moving. It's kind of like where does it stop? I've had talks with several big farms in the area and they have kind of the same thing going. It's either go huge or quit. 1000 cows and 23 hour milking isn't enough. And you need the big equipment and a 1000 acres to run crops on to feed em, etc etc etc. And for what? 1.99 a gallon milk at the store?


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## northmanlogging (Oct 7, 2017)

I'm guilty of looking at the little processor heads that will fit a 120... log max 5000? I think... Smaller wood seems to be the thing lately, mills are taking down to 5-6" and hand limbing that mess is a nightmare. (most of what I cut ends up 8" or better... but any market you can get right)

not to mention pulping whats left would make the land owners a wee bit happier. Though most want the firewood out of whats left.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 7, 2017)

Skeans said:


> I was told up where you guys are it's cheaper to have a guy in a buncher cutting an hour then having a certified faller is that true?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes but don't tell anybody OK?
..lol. 
If you mean owner operator rate? That could be at times. Lots of loggers in the interior dry belts have bunchers, trucks and woodlots. Sometimes the gov won't let them cut for a few years in their woodlots? Maybe they took too much or had to due to pine beetle? Very high fuel VS Price. Interior Logging as well G&O is much different because you have to wait to end of may early june for the frost to come out of the ground so they will lift the 1 ton vehicle max road bans. Then they will go balls to the wall and hope for no fire shutdown. Then wait for freeze up. So they don't Punch the roads out before they start. At that time they would go all winter but some areas crashed compared to what they were a few for years. A guys got to get something on. Possibly a guy will run a machine for 80 per hour fuel payed 8-10 hours a day if he's getting desperate and doesn't want to take a seat for? 27-37
It's hard to think of a buncher by the hour. 
Oil companies or prime contractor in the patch may sometimes hire by the hour if they are made to salvage and wood is of small amounts. If the prime contractor is on turn-key then good chance so is the logging, mulching and snagging/slashing but definitely always the loggers. The wood is a big headache in right of way construction unless they use it for rip-rap in the muskeg areas. So It works out well I'm sure for loggers as long as they get the decks prosesed and gone out of the 'extra work area's.

Guy I knew that had his bucket on for $220 per hour about 8 years ago.
When they can't find someone to fill a seat or they run out of thier own iron then that's what will happen.
G&O would be the best price.
A Welder & truck $1200 per day for pipe ticket and welds can pass X-ray. Down in the lower mainland maybe 37 working for someone doing structural.
Pipe fitter, helper and picker service truck is about $120. Bucket truck is about 130
Best operators rate in the pipeline was about 43 in a hoe a few years ago.
Works out good for them as it's at 12 hour a day. From a 7am saftey meeting then travel. Likely start tracking back at 4:30 - 5:00. They have been getting $150 a day for their trucks long as I can remember back 12 years ago.
Over 8 h is OT at about $65per hour, over 12 is double. Every operater gets a jump hour. You go by weekly OT though... Over 40h in BC & 44 in AB is OT.
It works out about 6 hours per day will be at 65 and 6 h at 43 and the jump hour is about $86. You work at least 28 day shift. Winter work guys used to do 130 day approx straight to break-up.
Based on a 7 day week average hourly could be about 54 average ×12 +86 +150. Worked it out in my head and it looks like its $884. per day.
Lots have a trailer they can stay in and get another $150 subsidiary. ("Sub" / LOA)
Trucks, UTV/ATV/snowmobile,saw hire, are all separate checks tax free.
Camp can be $220-$320 per man.

Having said that, A native cat operater was getting $20 per hour on a big Seismic job 3 winters ago.
That's treaty 8 reserve areas from greedy native contractors. I was getting $500 contract with out rentals (truck/snowmobile) with a two day Assessor's ticket and I could bypass the agreement and contract because I was "specialized"
to tie ribbons for a couple fallers chasing me. Their wages ranged from 400- $475 wage ++ for some.


It's really all over the map for different industries, skill set, area & activity.
Contract Inlet production faller
$650 - 700 day rate 6.5h

$100 - $107 per hour
$275 break-in rate.
I got offered to go for free on a 2 faller show east side island second growth fir. Just trading off with his saw.
Free private lessons from a 40 yrs coast vet 20 yrs ago. It was a start after five years of snagging on thinning jobs without much of any guidance.
Some companies were paying 450 to 550 for long time town work
for production. Some max rate.

On the lower mainland it's 85-$90 per h with 4 hour min for property developments and what not.
You can work 8 hours if you want. There is more time filing in the day.

-Fire- Contract faller with wildlife & wildland danger tree Assessor's is $850-900 but up to 1200 with truck & saws. Based on 12 hour day.

-Seismic: : 400-450 wage, truck:125-150, trailer, O-50, UTV 125-150 & snowmobile 100-125.
Turn-key: 500-1000 for high-baller

Fall & burn Pine Beetle control? Bunchers took all the cream access sites with all the numbers so we get the spread out first growth pipes in the openings of Aspen & cotton with coast like branches for the same price as always. It's too bad they could not have calculated a volume of an average and payed by that and location as well the consentration.

-Tree company 25h cash
-Utility 25h + 40 LOA
-Railway 25 + 100 UTV maybe.











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## madhatte (Oct 7, 2017)

Skeans said:


> This is my own personal land we have 1000 acres out here but we've been busy and have too many thinning we have to get caught up on.



I know that routine all too well. We just did a first entry thin on a unit planted in 1982. It was DARK in there. Not sure how it got missed, but that's how it goes.


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## RandyMac (Oct 17, 2017)

I go insane in timber like that.


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