# GRCS: some criticism by a non-owner



## pdqdl (May 5, 2009)

I have been getting more interested in the GRCS, and I know a lot of you guys swear by them. So I started to do my internet research, thinking I should be able to build my own for less.

Well, the answer is probably not. The Harken 46 winch that it is based on sells for about $1650 at various sailing equipment places, and that doesn't include any of the extra parts you get with the GRCS.

Then I start reading the specifications on that winch, and I discover that it is not supposed to be loaded with larger than a 9/16th" line. Furthermore, the manufacturer does not rate the winch component with any safe working load. Hmmm...

I found the video of some guys (Beranek included) testing to destruction the GRCS and the Hobbs device. They dropped a huge log, eventually a volvo, onto the devices. The GRCS was not as strong as the Hobbs, and they were using a 3/4" rope to do the destruction. 

Our thanks to Ekka, for making this video available: http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/grcsvshobbswmv.wmv

*TI have two precautionary points here, I am welcoming your comments and criticisms:*

1. At one point, they exploded the GRCS winch, pulling it off the pedestal. It turns out that the Harken winch is only held together by a relatively small screw. The winch is designed to be loaded at an 8 degree angle _*toward the mounting base *_, thereby keeping it put together. If you allow the load to pull the winch out of proper alignment with the load, it pulls the capstan off the winch under a heavy load!

2. Since most folks that lower really big logs use a 3/4" rope, how many of you are using that rope with the GRCS? According to the maker of the winch, it isn't rated for that size rope, and I suspect it can't safely carry the load a 3/4' rope can deliver, either.
*******************************************************

If you wanted to build your own GRCS-style device with a winch rated for 3/4" rope, you'd better warm up your wallet: the Harken winches in that size run about $2500, not counting any hardware to mount it.


----------



## 046 (May 5, 2009)

been thinking of building my own GRCS type device for awhile. 

found several used boat winches available on craigslist for a fraction of new. they generally are offered in pairs. Harken 46, self tailing winches in $1200-$1500 range. have seen pairs offered on CL low as $900.


----------



## Sunrise Guy (May 5, 2009)

What works, works. I've had a GRCS for over three years and have never had a single problem. I use 3/4" rope.

It has made jobs, that would otherwise have been a pita without it, a walk in the park. There have been others on here, over the years, who have complained about the cost of the unit versus its component parts break-down, but Good has taken all of the parts and put them together in an easy-to-use, extremely useful piece of equipment. For the money, it's been one of the better investments I've made in my business. I would not want to be without it.

I don't shock it with enormous loads. A good knowledge of load weights and a good dose of common sense should always come into play when rigging down log segments. Anyone can bring any piece of equipment up to and beyond its breaking point. The trick is to know what you're doing. Radical concept, right?


----------



## ddhlakebound (May 5, 2009)

Interesting, and good to know. 

But if a person is expecting shock loads, and only lowering big loads (no lifting), why would it be used with the winch? Wouldn't the bollard be a much better/safer choice for the application?


----------



## Sunrise Guy (May 5, 2009)

ddhlakebound said:


> Interesting, and good to know.
> 
> But if a person is expecting shock loads, and only lowering big loads (no lifting), why would it be used with the winch? Wouldn't the bollard be a much better/safer choice for the application?



Absolutely.


----------



## randyg (May 5, 2009)

*Good points?*

About the 8 degree angle thing: Is there not a guide for the rope to run through to give that angle/keep rope at base of winch? I'm wondering if the 9/16" spec has more to do with the 'self-tailing' ability of the winch rather than the amount of force capable of larger sizes of rope? 

I too am a non-owner of a GRCS, but getting closer to purchase every day. Have a couple home made bollards that I love, and use in conjunction with fiddle blocks to lift on occasion.

Think of it like this: GRCS is to bollard with fiddle blocks, as chainsaw is to axe.


----------



## tomtrees58 (May 5, 2009)

look at a hobbs we have 2 of them we love them ther $1600.00 tom trees


----------



## treemandan (May 5, 2009)

For about 5 bills you can be the proud owner of the kind I have.I made a post about it. It works ok.


----------



## pdqdl (May 5, 2009)

randyg said:


> About the 8 degree angle thing: Is there not a guide for the rope to run through to give that angle/keep rope at base of winch? I'm wondering if the 9/16" spec has more to do with the 'self-tailing' ability of the winch rather than the amount of force capable of larger sizes of rope?
> 
> .........



Yes, but in the "test to destruction" video, those guides were bent out of line by the rope, then failure occurred.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 5, 2009)

I have not had any problem with my GRCS and I've had it for around nine years.

I always wonder how many people who complain about the cost have a big saw that they use only a few times a month?

With the Jerry B. video, they were trying to break it, applying forces that I've never had the need to use. Though i think Greg Good beefed up the fairlead that got bent. It is also recomended that a block be placed over the fairlead so that you have a proper angle coming into it. I do this as a matter of course; if the rope is not coming in at a near zero angle, it gets a fairlead pulley or carabiner over the fairlead bar.

Rope size; Ive used 3/4, though I hate anything over 9/16 when I'm climbing. I just do not need that stuff till I get to the trunk wood.


----------



## Rftreeman (May 5, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I always wonder how many people who complain about the cost have a big saw that they use only a few times a month?


I ain't got but $500 in my big saw (394xp 36" bar) and use less than a few times a month and refuse to pay $2600 (not that I can't afford it) for something that I'll never use for anything other than lifting, thought about one once but was thinking what would keep it from sliding up the tree, are you going to cut notches in a tree that you are not removing.

I'd like to see what it would take to make a porta wrap fail.


----------



## asthesun (May 5, 2009)

you can always just mount the porta-wrap to the skid-steer, lift as needed and then run the rope as needed


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 5, 2009)

asthesun said:


> you can always just mount the porta-wrap to the skid-steer, lift as needed and then run the rope as needed



If you can get the skidder near the tree.



> refuse to pay $2600 (not that I can't afford it) for something that I'll never use for anything other than lifting,



It is useful for mere then just lifting; that operation is just the easiest to get across without visual aid. I find it allows you to finesse the rigging operation and work with greater efficiency.


----------



## asthesun (May 5, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> If you can get the skidder near the tree.



get longer rope/more rope if necessary


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 5, 2009)

asthesun said:


> get longer rope/more rope if necessary



Fair lead it around the house maybe? What if you are in the woods, and cannot cut your way in for machine access?


----------



## LTREES (May 5, 2009)

What is the difference between the GRCS (2600.00) and the HOBBS (1600.00) ? They both have a hand crank? One has an option for a drill? What is the load limits? I would think you could manage 1000 to 1500 lbs. no problem. If I can get something to lift a whole lead off a house in one shot for 1600.00 I'm in. I have a lowering device, just cant lift anything up w/ it.

LT...


----------



## newb (May 5, 2009)

This argument has been beaten to death. If you can't afford a GRCS thats one thing, but if you don't want to invest the money in one don't come in here trying to justify your decision by berating the tool. I've often felt if Greg wanted to sell more units all he have to do is demo it to owners for one month. You would never be without. There are many ways to work around a GRCS, port-a-wrap, fiddle block, skid steer, but through it all, theres only one GRCS. Thanks Greg!! Pete


----------



## asthesun (May 5, 2009)

newb said:


> This argument has been beaten to death. If you can't afford a GRCS thats one thing, but if you don't want to invest the money in one don't come in here trying to justify your decision by berating the tool. I've often felt if Greg wanted to sell more units all he have to do is demo it to owners for one month. You would never be without. There are many ways to work around a GRCS, port-a-wrap, fiddle block, skid steer, but through it all, theres only one GRCS. Thanks Greg!! Pete



lets beat it to death some more. there is only one skid steer, there is only one portawrap. there are ways around everything. if you're a zillionaire who want every tool and toy ever, get the grcs. if you're like the rest od us peons who actually has to think a little before dropping 2-3k on a tool that isnt necessary, dont get it just yet. tree work got done long before someone came up with the grcs.


----------



## senechal (May 5, 2009)

I've got a lot of hours on both hobbs and good, and agree with Pete's point about demoing the GRCS. It's a fine tuned machine for people that can appreciate the little nuisance details that can build up to aggravating levels -- eg. hobbs has and issue with wraps rolling over and cinching your load under heavier loads after a lift. Extreeeme PITA. It has some fairlead bugs to deal with. GRCS is one man operation with ease, with much greater precision/control and mechanical advantage. You could argue that Hobbs is one man operation I guess, if you like one hand on the lever, one on slack tend crossing over arms and switching the bar to a new socket placement with no ability to watch the rig.

GRCS is the industry's best kept secret, consider the cost a membership to the club of kicking ass.


----------



## Ax-man (May 5, 2009)

The GRCS is well within the SWL of 5/8ths dia. Stable Braid rope. The winch can easily accomodate this size rope for most tree work including lowering. You can do some lifting with this size rope, pretensioning a double braid is usually about all you would need to do with the winch to lower out some big logs. 1/2 in. dia. is better suited for long big lifts because you can get more wraps on the winch than you can with 5/8ths. The more wraps on the winch the more traction you will have with no slippage. 1/2 in. rope will easily get 90 % of a tree down to the ground. 

3/4 in rope is overkill for most average tree work unless your working on those big conifers in the PNW. 3/4 in rope is a pain to handle, tie knots, and is heavy If you think you need to use 3/4 in rope your either taking the butt end of some very big limbs or your blocking down some very big trunk sections. There is no need for the winch as this is simple lowering and the bollard supplied with the GRCS will easily handle these loads using 3/4 in rope. 

As JP pointed out in that video they were pushing those lowering devices to the limit and they were adding slack to increase the dynamic loading on the devices. Both the Hobbs and GRCS were damaged but the ropes and knots failed more than the devices. No one in their right mind would do what they were doing to their equipment. 

Get your hands on the video that actually shows how to use the GRCS. It clearly demonstates why the GRCS is more popular than the Hobbs. 

Larry


----------



## treemandan (May 5, 2009)

asthesun said:


> lets beat it to death some more. there is only one skid steer, there is only one portawrap. there are ways around everything. if you're a zillionaire who want every tool and toy ever, get the grcs. if you're like the rest od us peons who actually has to think a little before dropping 2-3k on a tool that isnt necessary, dont get it just yet. tree work got done long before someone came up with the grcs.



well then no device for you.


----------



## UrbanLogger (May 5, 2009)

I've used both the Hobbs and GRCS, it takes 2 people to use a Hobbs to efficently lift a large piece of wood. One to crank (with no gearing advantage, like a GRCS has) and one to tail the rope, it is not self tailing like a grcs. If it is a really heave piece of wood it may take two people to lift the wood.

I know Greg Good... As for the winch (from Harken) he has told me that he makes some minor modifications to the winch, making it stronger/more heavy duty something like that... It is aparently not a stock Harken Winch. The 3 fair leads mounted to the grcs winch mount are supposed to lead the rope onto the winch at the proper angle.


----------



## Rftreeman (May 6, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Fair lead it around the house maybe? What if you are in the woods, and cannot cut your way in for machine access?


well, then you're just S.O.L lol


----------



## Rftreeman (May 6, 2009)

These devices seem to not be something I'd want to use on a tree that is not getting removed due to the fact that the device can slide up and damage the tree, this is why I bought the porta wrap and stopped making wraps on the tree. I'd buy the thing if it wasn't $2600.00 but it just isn't that valuable to me when I can get it done with out it. 

I'm not knocking it or berating it, this is just my opinion.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 6, 2009)

Rich, the only reason you think this way is because you've never used one 

In the near +10 years I've been working with them I have had one slip on a big removal only once; that was due to my side-loading the fairlead. Since i started using block-over-fairlead I have had no problems.

I'm probably the smallest insured operation on this site, and mine has paid for itself many times over.



> tree work got done long before someone came up with the grcs.



I do not climb on manila rope, or use a bo'lin on a bight saddle. People used to cut with a misery-whip buck saw.


----------



## Rftreeman (May 6, 2009)

I've had a few situations where I probably could have used one for lifting but when we get in that situation we just use the old piece it out on a rope with a tag line to pull it over in to the clear drop zone or if my friends small 90foot crane can get to it then it'll go on that.

Maybe if I wasn't such a tightass I'd come off the hip and buy one just in case..


----------



## Rickytree (May 6, 2009)

Ax-man said:


> The GRCS is well within the SWL of 5/8ths dia. Stable Braid rope. The winch can easily accomodate this size rope for most tree work including lowering. You can do some lifting with this size rope, pretensioning a double braid is usually about all you would need to do with the winch to lower out some big logs. 1/2 in. dia. is better suited for long big lifts because you can get more wraps on the winch than you can with 5/8ths. The more wraps on the winch the more traction you will have with no slippage. 1/2 in. rope will easily get 90 % of a tree down to the ground.
> 
> 3/4 in rope is overkill for most average tree work unless your working on those big conifers in the PNW. 3/4 in rope is a pain to handle, tie knots, and is heavy If you think you need to use 3/4 in rope your either taking the butt end of some very big limbs or your blocking down some very big trunk sections. There is no need for the winch as this is simple lowering and the bollard supplied with the GRCS will easily handle these loads using 3/4 in rope.
> 
> ...



When the GCRS got destroyed, did it have the top visor plate installed to prevent upward movement? I don't think so. This caused the incident to occur. And for the people out there that The GCRS isn't worth the money or they could get by without it, well if you do large trimmings or removals this is the machine. I do stuff that some could only dream about. Taking pieces over 35 feet long and weighing 2 tonne or more without shock loading anything. The big thing I love about the GCRS is the line tensioning and slack removal( lifting to the tie in point). Soon Helmet Video to be here this summer.


----------



## teamtree (May 6, 2009)

JPS.....We could have used the GRCS today.


----------



## asthesun (May 6, 2009)

Rickytree said:


> if you do large trimmings or removals this is the machine.



no, this is the machine:


----------



## tree md (May 6, 2009)

I worked with one a little last year. Actually someone worked with me who had one. I think that this is a great innovation in the tree business. It eliminates the need for a crane in a lot of situations. Man, you can use it for so many applications. We used one to do a very risky felling on a huge Oak that was split down the trunk and leaning over the house and pool at a severe lean. Very technical felling. We were able to slowly ease the tree over in a controlled manor with the GRCS. Afterwords, we pulled my 2 ton dump out of the mud with the GRCS. I personally can't wait til I can get one. I plan to wait til I have a large tree that I can price for what the GRCS is worth. Use one tree to pay for it.


----------



## Rftreeman (May 6, 2009)

tree md said:


> We used one to do a very risky felling on a huge Oak that was split down the trunk and leaning over the house and pool at a severe lean. Very technical felling. We were able to slowly ease the tree over in a controlled manor with the GRCS.


I've used two ropes on two separate rigging points to do the very same thing while steering the tree with the two lines and have done it several times, so many people act like large tree work can't be done with out the GRCS.

Like I said before, I'm not knocking the device and I'm sure it makes things easier but I got time to do it with out it.


----------



## tree md (May 6, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I've used two ropes on two separate rigging points to do the very same thing while steering the tree with the two lines and have done it several times, so many people act like large tree work can't be done with out the GRCS.
> 
> Like I said before, I'm not knocking the device and I'm sure it makes things easier but I got time to do it with out it.



We had the tree tagged with two separate lines on this one as well. We had it anchored with my 2 ton dump and used the GRCS to pull it over. The GRCS was indispensable on that felling I can tell you. Sure there is always another way to do something but the GRCS made a very difficult, risky, technical felling relatively easy on that job. Very controlled, smooth take down when cranking it over with the GRCS. Hey, it might not be for everyone but from the limited experience I've had with it, I want one.


----------



## senechal (May 6, 2009)

The second you wrap 1/2" stable braid around that sucker and giver a crank, you will be a believer. Think not of how you can conduct rigging operations similar to GRCS , but how much further GRCS will take your rigging capabilities.

Faster higher better smoother. = $ in the bank. I don't know why I bother to preach the product to non believers other than Greg being a great guy that built a lifting/lowering device that opened up a new world of possibilities.


----------



## asthesun (May 6, 2009)

senechal said:


> The second you wrap 1/2" stable braid around that sucker and giver a crank, you will be a believer. Think not of how you can conduct rigging operations similar to GRCS , but how much further GRCS will take your rigging capabilities.
> 
> Faster higher better smoother. = $ in the bank. *I don't know why I bother to preach the product to non believers* other than Greg being a great guy that built a lifting/lowering device that opened up a new world of possibilities.



those guys in white shirts that come to my door occasionally havent given up preaching, neither should you. if you keep trying, i'll prolly eventually get one with storm money. i doubt the guys in white shirts will have such luck with me


----------



## Menchhofer (May 6, 2009)

For many years, we also put off purchasing the GRCS. $2200.00 is not chump change.
Could not justify the cost. We were just stupid. You quickly recoup your investment by both saving time and operating more safely.

While we do not use it everyday, when we do it just makes the entire operation smoother and more predictable. 

It is just like the charge card. Don't leave home without it!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 6, 2009)

teamtree said:


> JPS.....We could have used the GRCS today.



I betcha coulda used it  BK would have got them all done then! 

Once a guy sees a good team work it they understand what slicker then a greased toad really means.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 6, 2009)

Menchhofer said:


> It is just like the charge card. Don't leave home without it!



Hi Steve; long time, no read! 

Next time I go work in Jasper I'll have to look you up along the way. There was a Waffle House i stopped at for breakfast when I left the interstate, not sure where that was...


----------



## squad143 (May 6, 2009)

asthesun said:


> tree work got done long before someone came up with the grcs.



Yes, and it also "got" done long before there was a bucket truck or the machine in the above picture.


----------



## 046 (May 6, 2009)

slicker then a greased toad ...


----------



## asthesun (May 6, 2009)

squad143 said:


> Yes, and it also "got" done long before there was a bucket truck or the machine in the above picture.



thats right. imo, everything can be dumped onto the groundmen. dont want to call a crane? np, get $400 worth of more labor. dont want to buy a grcs? np, get $2600 worth of labor. only difference is that the grcs will probably eventually pay for itself, provided you use it more than once in a blue moon


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 7, 2009)

asthesun said:


> provided you use it more than once in a blue moon



Exactly, and I use mine a couple times a week, on average. It takes less then 5 minutes to set up, so if I might need it for one big move, it gets strapped on. Just being able to easily tension the line makes it worth putting on the tree.


----------



## Menchhofer (May 7, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Hi Steve; long time, no read!
> 
> Next time I go work in Jasper I'll have to look you up along the way. There was a Waffle House i stopped at for breakfast when I left the interstate, not sure where that was...




JPS


Just let me know. We can try and meet up again... I think the last time we tried it was snowing if I am not mistaken!


----------



## newb (May 7, 2009)

" I don't know why I bother to preach the product to non believers other than Greg being a great guy that built a lifting/lowering device that opened up a new world of possibilities. " This says it all! John we strap ours on most trees also. It is better to have it ready and not need it than to need it and not have it ready. Pete


----------



## TreeBot (May 8, 2009)

tree md said:


> We had the tree tagged with two separate lines on this one as well. We had it anchored with my 2 ton dump and used the GRCS to pull it over. The GRCS was indispensable on that felling I can tell you. Sure there is always another way to do something but the GRCS made a very difficult, risky, technical felling relatively easy on that job. Very controlled, smooth take down when cranking it over with the GRCS. Hey, it might not be for everyone but from the limited experience I've had with it, I want one.



Ahem but some one forgot the video camera. Probably best since that was kinda scary and really a bigger tree than we probably should have pulled. The aerospace engineer double checking our estimates when we were deciding if we could do it was an interesting twist. I am sure glad I was not standing at the base of that tree with a saw in my hand when that 30,000 pounds decided split into two pieces as it started to fall. 

I have found that with the GRCS, 3/4 inch rope does not grab the capstan very well so you can not get as much lift. The machine can't lift anything near the weight that 3/4 inch rope is needed for anyway though, so there is no need to use it to lift. If you have to lower big wood with 3/4 inch just use the aluminum barrel. 

As far as the GRCS being worth the silver, being seen in the neighborhood easily lifting 500-1000lb limbs off of structures is very good advertisement, it is worth the money for that reason alone. I don't really think it usually saves much time, you spend as much time setting up and rigging blocks and stuff as you save usually. A good old school natural crotch rigger could usually be halfway done by the time I am set up. But I would catch all the way up and finish the job with much less effort and in a more predictable and more confidence inspiring manner. Some jobs can go much quicker though, especially big removals in tight places with good strong rigging points. I find myself setting it up on a lot of jobs that I don't even think I need it on just in case I change my mind, it is always nice to have that easy to apply 2k lb+ pull at your disposal.


----------



## tree md (May 8, 2009)

TreeBot said:


> Ahem but some one forgot the video camera. Probably best since that was kinda scary and really a bigger tree than we probably should have pulled. The aerospace engineer double checking our estimates when we were deciding if we could do it was an interesting twist. I am sure glad I was not standing at the base of that tree with a saw in my hand when that 30,000 pounds decided split into two pieces as it started to fall.
> 
> I have found that with the GRCS, 3/4 inch rope does not grab the capstan very well so you can not get as much lift. The machine can't lift anything near the weight that 3/4 inch rope is needed for anyway though, so there is no need to use it to lift. If you have to lower big wood with 3/4 inch just use the aluminum barrel.
> 
> As far as the GRCS being worth the silver, being seen in the neighborhood easily lifting 500-1000lb limbs off of structures is very good advertisement, it is worth the money for that reason alone. I don't really think it usually saves much time, you spend as much time setting up and rigging blocks and stuff as you save usually. A good old school natural crotch rigger could usually be halfway done by the time I am set up. But I would catch all the way up and finish the job with much less effort and in a more predictable and more confidence inspiring manner. Some jobs can go much quicker though, especially big removals in tight places with good strong rigging points. I find myself setting it up on a lot of jobs that I don't even think I need it on just in case I change my mind, it is always nice to have that easy to apply 2k lb+ pull at your disposal.



I was glad you weren't standing at the base as well. Hence, the GRCS was indispensable that day. Always fun when you can make an engineer break out his note pad and start figuring. Best of all was when the cop we was working for told us not to leave, that he had a cooler of beer iced down for us as we were coordinating our GPS's and planning our next rendezvous and we begged off to go get our next job done. Always the professional. We were tree Gods that day. Thank God it worked out. I don't think they would believe us here even if I got it on camera...


----------



## Ax-man (May 9, 2009)

I have found this thread to be interesting. Like all topics it seems we have the usual outcome. No matter what is said or who says it we have the usual 50/50 split on the subject. The owners and users of a GRCS representing one side with the non owners representing the other side saying they can get along fine without a GRCS. 

Like most here I learned old school using natural crotch rigging with the lowering rope snubbed off around the base of the tree. When new tools and new techniques became more available through information sharing I adopted them into our operation. With each new tool and technique we became faster and more productive and the work became easier and having more control of the process of removing a tree especially a big tree in a tight area. 

Having a GRCS provides a means to an end goal I always invisioned when I started in this business. The ability to lift up and lower big pieces of a tree in one easy simple step with one man. It just doesn't get any better than that. 

Larry


----------



## pdqdl (May 9, 2009)

*New questions on the same GRCS thread*

I don't know about that Axeman, I got the answers I wanted to hear, especially from Treebot.

1. No, 3/4 rope isn't the best choice, but it can be used.
2. Nobody piped up and said they ever pulled their GRCS apart, so the test to destruction video was clearly an "over the top" test.
3. While self tailing winches can be found, not very many folks seem to have built their own version.

4. I didn't start this thread to get the opinions of nay-sayers that don't use the GRCS, I wanted to hear about the benefits. That has worked out nicely!

Thanks everybody for your comments.

**********************************************************

Now on a slightly different topic, a couple more questions: 

1. Once you have done the lifting part of the GRCS use, how do you escape the self-tailing part? Is it as simple as unwrapping the rope from the outer sheave, or is it more complicated?

2. Does that thing have a reverse? If your are winding with a 44:1 mechanical advantage, does it have a tendency to come screaming off the capstan when you disengage the self-tailing part on a heavy load?

3. How do you change gears on that, and does it have a 1:1 direct drive?


----------



## tree MDS (May 9, 2009)

Get the instruction video, I got one from my arborist supply house a few weeks back, it clears up alot of questions I had about mine.

The next thing I want to do someday is figure out how to winch with that drill from another tree without any problems with line crossing on the drum or anything. I guess it just takes alot of pulleys to get everything lined up straight. That could be cool though, but at some point its probably just as quick to rope it natural crotch.


----------



## Ax-man (May 9, 2009)

I don't know why anyone would want to build their own frame for a winch and then have to round up and incorporate a strap for it. To me it has always been easier and less time consuming to just go out and buy the tool and the accesories. All the fabrication has been done and made much better than I could ever do in the shop.

Answers

#1 - yes it is simple to escape the self tailer. Just take out the first few wraps and get them into the pigtail to feed the rope into the capstain. Takes a little practice but like all tools there is a definate learning curve to overcome.

#2 - No- The rope doesn't come off the self tailer. It holds steadfast until you can't turn the winch anymore. A drill will get you more lifting power than you can do by hand.

#3 - No 1 to 1- Turning the crank in a clockwise rotation is the fastest gear and is geared 4 to 1. Good for speed to pretension but is lacking for good lifting. Counter clockwise rotation is 13 to 1 ( I think ) This is the slowest gearing but gives one man very good lifting control. Changing gears is as simple as winding the crank clockwise or forward then cranking in the opposite direction backwards or counterclockwise. It is simple and not complicated at all. No levers to mess with. All the gearing is contained in the capstain.

Hope this helps you out. You really need to see the vid that shows using the GRCS doing actual lifting and lowering of work pieces. 

Larry


----------



## pdqdl (May 9, 2009)

Rotation either way lifts, eh? That's pretty cool.

Question 2 was about whether a man can hang onto the rope after he has freed it from the self-tailing part. I can see how that might pull harder than a man can hold.


----------



## pdqdl (May 9, 2009)

With respect for the winches and straps that come with the GRCS: That stuff is common and cheap. Standard issue at truck stops all over the country. I have those accumulating at my shop, 'cause I pick them up off the side of the road. 

The straps are usually torn up when you find them by the road.

Since some of us are kinda poor, yet talented with making our own stuff, I tend to look at ways to save money, maybe to make something better.

If I was building the GRCS, I think I might try to build a roller fair lead into it. Two winches/straps seems like a better idea, too.

Maybe a junior version, for lighter work.


----------



## Ax-man (May 9, 2009)

Yes , one man can hold the rope. It is all a matter of how many wraps are taken on the capstain. If your doing a heavy lift the guy has to be kind of quick to get the rope off the self tailer and into the pigtail.

There are two forces at work when lifting with the GRCS. Your lifting up the weight of the limb before it is cut free and your gin or lowering point is also being pulled downward. It is a compression effect until the limb that is being lifted is cut free and lowering point takes the load and goes back to it's original position.

You haven't lived until you can be able to tip tie a limb and stand it up vertically. Then be able to lower it and winch it over to chipper with a winch all in one motion then be able to feed that same limb into the chipper without having to cut it up. I know this is off topic but it sure is fun. 

Larry


----------



## pdqdl (May 9, 2009)

Ax-man said:


> .... off the self tailer and into the pigtail.
> ...



Eh? What pigtail?

Don't you just hang onto the free end of the rope?


----------



## Ax-man (May 9, 2009)

As your facing the winch the pigtail is on the left side. It can be folded up when not in use. It 's function is to lead the rope into the capstain to prevent the coils from getting bound up and twisted on themselves. Without the pigtail the rope would get into a tangled mess on capstain by running onto itself and wouldn't play out in a nice smooth easy motion.

There are three fairleads on a GRCS. The top two angled ones on top to lead the rope into the winch. The pigtail which is a curly Q affair to feed the rope into the winch for lowering. There is another minor fairlead on the right if you need to use that side of the winch. That one isn't used much. 

Larry


----------



## pdqdl (May 9, 2009)

Yeah, I can see how that might be needed.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 9, 2009)

> Two winches/straps seems like a better idea, too.



I assume you mean two truck straps & pawled cinch gear.

The design of the bracket pushes it into the tree, onto the rubber pads, when loaded properly. This is where a proper run through the top fairlead is critical on heavy loads. 

As for the self-tailer, it is a spring-loaded toothed jaw on the outside of the drum. The last wrap comes over a thimble, which feeds the rope into the jaws. as you crank the rope spills out of the jaw assembly.

to add my two cents on taking wraps off, it is just like with the Porty, as you take them off, you maintain friction on the drum untill you feel a little slippage.

On an average tree I can set the winch up, run the rope and take it down solo. I've worked with some ground guys (ropemen) who can run the winch rope with one hand and a drift/tagline out of the other.


----------



## ChiHD (May 9, 2009)

Rickytree said:


> When the GCRS got destroyed, did it have the top visor plate installed to prevent upward movement? I don't think so. This caused the incident to occur. And for the people out there that The GCRS isn't worth the money or they could get by without it, well if you do large trimmings or removals this is the machine. I do stuff that some could only dream about. Taking pieces over 35 feet long and weighing 2 tonne or more without shock loading anything. The big thing I love about the GCRS is the line tensioning and slack removal( lifting to the tie in point). Soon Helmet Video to be here this summer.



I'm ready to purchase the GCRS and was wondering where you bought yours? So far it looks like WesSpur is the best price but Im not sure if Vermeer in Brampton would be cheaper without the shipping or duty.

Do you know if WesSpur is in Canada?

thanks


----------



## senechal (May 9, 2009)

WesSpur is in Washington but ships anywhere in Canada as does Sherrill. It's a bulky item to ship so if you can get it in Brampton it might be worth your while despite the price differences and lousy dollar.


----------



## TreeBot (May 9, 2009)

I was warned by Charlie Pottorf when I bought by GRCS through him about the possibility of the rope uncoiling off of the capstan while it is being taken out of the self tailing clamp and unwrapped. If you don't keep tension on the rope and if you bring the rope out to the front of the machine, placing the portion of the rope past the winch perpendicular, rather than parallel to the part of the rope wrapped on the capstan, then the coils could spin off the drum altogether.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (May 9, 2009)

TreeBot said:


> Ithen the coils could spin off the drum altogether.



That hurts, I've had it happen with a Hobbs.


----------



## treevet (Nov 5, 2010)

Ran across this vid and seems like a good alternative by Reg. Esp. if less $ as the GRCS is power drill usable. Love the double cog. I am gonna spring for something this year.

And....Reg's head does NOT look like a meatball lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=462bNzBgP9c&feature=related


----------



## treevet (Nov 5, 2010)

Here is a vid showing speed and ease of use that makes this unit more desirable but what is the cost difference? And does the double cog give an advantage that makes up some of the GRCS advantage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMeNUzdodoY&feature=related


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 5, 2010)

I have been getting by without a GCRS, but I don't want too!
Next big purchase for me. If it sits next to my big saw and collects dust for a while, that's fine.

again I repeat the words of the Capt

"Newt take this, its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"


----------



## treevet (Nov 5, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> I have been getting by without a GCRS, but I don't want too!
> Next big purchase for me. If it sits next to my big saw and collects dust for a while, that's fine.
> 
> again I repeat the words of the Capt
> ...



I agree.....and that drill option is just sweet. I would likely use it most just to tension heavy stuff to eliminate shock load. Also love the plug in hitch ability as well.


----------



## Saw Dust Smoken (Nov 6, 2010)

*grc*

Have used mine for over 2 yrs. Once your learn its capabilities for tensioned limbs or logs. Going big in a large removal take down is a huge time saver. 
And yes the 3\4 rope does work with winch.
And yes the rope can be pulled of winch if your not careful.
And yes the chainsaw will cut body part off. Be smart and safe with all equipment.


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 6, 2010)

To bad you guys dont live in Europe! Steven Ibelings has recently designed this beauty! Winch on the inside, take big pieces on the frame.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 6, 2010)

Norwayclimber said:


> To bad you guys dont live in Europe! Steven Ibelings has recently designed this beauty! Winch on the inside, take big pieces on the frame.



Looks real sweet, what can it do? how much, where, how?

Techa techa mo info peas


----------



## treevet (Nov 6, 2010)

may be an opticle illusion but doesn't look like you could get many wraps and looks like you could cross wrap easily locking the load from descending? Any experience with that machine?


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 6, 2010)

treevet said:


> may be an opticle illusion but doesn't look like you could get many wraps and looks like you could cross wrap easily locking the load from descending? Any experience with that machine?



:agree2:
Looks like it has alot in the way. But could be just the way the pic is


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 6, 2010)

treevet said:


> Also love the plug in hitch ability as well.


 I often picture my F-250 dangling in the wind! Wonder how many times, someone tied of to their light duty truck, took a big piece, piece went down, truck went up, had to of happened somewhere!


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 6, 2010)

treevet said:


> Ran across this vid and seems like a good alternative by Reg. Esp. if less $ as the GRCS is power drill usable. Love the double cog. I am gonna spring for something this year.
> 
> And....Reg's head does NOT look like a meatball lol.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=462bNzBgP9c&feature=related




Yeah that thing is pretty cool too! Which one is Reg?


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 6, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Looks real sweet, what can it do? how much, where, how?
> 
> Techa techa mo info peas



Sorry, dont know the numbers, but think they compare to the GRCS, maybe a bit higher.


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 6, 2010)

That was for the technical info. Prices will be cheaper than the GRCS in Europe, probably more expensive in the US (probably because of shipping and dealers etc)


----------



## treevet (Nov 6, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Yeah that thing is pretty cool too! Which one is Reg?



The moderator and the guy by himself describing the machine with the blueish jacket and white hat.

Nice top blow out shot! (he comes right after that)


----------



## treevet (Nov 6, 2010)

I'd like to see a side view of it anyway.

Snooping around and found the Stein/Reg machine at around $1200 I think and the other 2 at approx. the same price (twice as much?). Look to get more with the GCRS as far as options....drill capable, hitch insertable....just to mention a couple.

Wonder how much damage to lines are caused by the Reg machine?


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 7, 2010)

Side view coming up!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> Wonder how much damage to lines are caused by the Reg machine?



Probably the same as any bollard. friction is friction, though there would be less of a chance of fiber grabbing since you can avoid turns touching.

--------
There is a risk of the unit slipping when the strap for a bollard is higher then the device. I like to set mine up so that the GRCS is slightly higher then the strap on the back of the tree.


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 7, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> There is a risk of the unit slipping when the strap for a bollard is higher then the device. I like to set mine up so that the GRCS is slightly higher then the strap on the back of the tree.



I belive the bollard was set up on this tree for photographic reasons only. No lowering involved  

But in general a good tip!


----------



## treevet (Nov 7, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Probably the same as any bollard. friction is friction, though there would be less of a chance of fiber grabbing since you can avoid turns touching.
> 
> --------
> Was referring to the lifting aspect (for rope damage) where the line is pinched manually (as opposed to gravity engaging it) with max force with the pinching/lifting part of the machine.


----------



## Reg (Nov 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> Wonder how much damage to lines are caused by the Reg machine?



There's no damage Dave, otherwise it wouldn't be on the market. We prioritized High Impact Loading above all else, throughout the Stein LD range....obviously the Dual packs plenty more than that also by way of options. 

If It were possible I'd buy a GRCS also, regardless of cost....but obviously I have a slight conflict of interest in that respect. 

Steven's Euro/Harken adaption looks like a beautifully engineered piece of work, smart thinking merging the Bollard and winch together like that. I would just like to see what is at the back to stop it shooting up under a heavy jolt. I would also like to hear why the strap attachment points are set level with bollard, exerting far more force on the strap than what would be if it were set below, as is the norm with fixed LDs. Perhaps we'll learn all the in's and out's as the product gathers pace.


----------



## treevet (Nov 7, 2010)

Reg said:


> There's no damage Dave, otherwise it wouldn't be on the market. We prioritized High Impact Loading above all else, throughout the Stein LD range....obviously the Dual packs plenty more than that also by way of options.
> 
> If It were possible I'd buy a GRCS also, regardless of cost....but obviously I have a slight conflict of interest in that respect.
> 
> Steven's Euro/Harken adaption looks like a beautifully engineered piece of work, smart thinking merging the Bollard and winch together like that. I would just like to see what is at the back to stop it shooting up under a heavy jolt. I would also like to hear why the strap attachment points are set level with bollard, exerting far more force on the strap than what would be if it were set below, as is the norm with fixed LDs. Perhaps we'll learn all the in's and out's as the product gathers pace.



Are you saying that you feel you could find use for BOTH machines (grcs and Stein) in different situations Reg? Or are you just saying you HAVE to have the Stein?

Also can you get lift on both bollards with the lifter or just the left one in the picts?

It is also possible the new Euro machine is just poorly designed?


----------



## Reg (Nov 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> Are you saying that you feel you could find use for BOTH machines (grcs and Stein) in different situations Reg? Or are you just saying you HAVE to have the Stein?
> 
> *No, I dont have to stick with the Stein Dave, and it cetainly suits the way I work, but it wouldn't too smart of me to buy and start showcasing the GRCs on youtube and stuff either. That harken winch would still come in useful for lots of things though....and not to mention, the guy who makes it is the genuine article....so I wouldn't feel so bad spending my money with him.*
> 
> ...



*Alot of hard work must have gone into that device Dave, lets hope the people behind are in fact experienced, hardcore tree-riggers who have it all covered. I would like to believe so. Time will tell, or perhaps Norway Climber will kindly shed some more light? *


----------



## treevet (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks for reply Reg but you did not quite answer my question. I will re phrase it....

If you had a GRCS would there be any reason to buy a Stein? (outside of the obvious benies of having the second bollard).


----------



## Reg (Nov 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> Thanks for reply Reg but you did not quite answer my question. I will re phrase it....
> 
> If you had a GRCS would there be any reason to buy a Stein? (outside of the obvious benies of having the second bollard).



Well thats impossible to answer and be absolute Dave. But let me say this, and with the greatest of respect - I have rigged out sections on the Stein that I just couldn't have done on any other device, so in that sense it suits my personal preferences best. But on the other hand, there are lots of other ways to skin a cat. I think the word from most GRCS users is that they wouldn't use anything else either. I am doing my best here.


----------



## treevet (Nov 7, 2010)

Reg said:


> Well thats impossible to answer and be absolute Dave. But let me say this, and with the greatest of respect - I have rigged out sections on the Stein that I just couldn't have done on any other device, so in that sense it suits my personal preferences best. But on the other hand, there are lots of other ways to skin a cat. I think the word from most GRCS users is that they wouldn't use anything else either. I am doing my best here.



We rig out huge stuff on my strap on bollard I bought maybe 20 years ago or whenever they were invented. Also on my largest porty. Prior to that we/everyone wrapped the tree. I can see the need for lifting (tips over a roof, etc.)..... but a lifting bollard mainly just for tensioning to eliminate just some/a little of the shock load..?.... not a necessity IMO. Not trying to bust on you Reg just talking here. 

If it comes down to getting lift over a roof quickly and easily the drill into the GCRS seems the pinnacle.

Nobody taking anything larger out of trees than we do unless there doing coastal redwoods or (big) eucs. There is an abbundance of big wood around here.


----------



## Reg (Nov 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> We rig out huge stuff on my strap on bollard I bought maybe 20 years ago or whenever they were invented. Also on my largest porty. Prior to that we/everyone wrapped the tree. I can see the need for lifting (tips over a roof, etc.)..... but a lifting bollard mainly just for tensioning to eliminate just some/a little of the shock load..?.... not a necessity IMO



One could argue that LDs are not a necessity at all, but they sure make the job safer more efficient. 

Dave I am being very careful to remain impartial for obvious reasons.

In general terms pre-loading a line is mainly used to add extra direction and/or clearance by shortening the distance between the limb and the rigging point. Again not a necessity but can be a huge time and labour saver when the opportunities are realised. 

When I made mentioned rigging heavy or awkward sections specifically with the Stein in my earlier post, I was also making reference to the effects/wear on the corresponding ropes and other hardware, or lack of....not just on the device itself, more the options it offers, the way it is built and how that complements the other links in the chain. 

I'd like to leave it there Dave, on a GRCS thread at least, its not right for me continue along these lines. The GRCS rules, hows that.


----------



## treevet (Nov 7, 2010)

I see the Stein as a strong consideration for a lot of reasons although I like to play devil's advocate. The most obvious buyer probably would be someone with no LD at all prior to spending "some" of their investment bucks on portys and such. That is a very attractive price and it has some nice features esp. lifting capacity that is affordable.


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 7, 2010)

Reg said:


> *Alot of hard work must have gone into that device Dave, lets hope the people behind are in fact experienced, hardcore tree-riggers who have it all covered. I would like to believe so. Time will tell, or perhaps Norway Climber will kindly shed some more light? *



Lol, well I really don't know all that much. I met Steve Ibelings at this summers ETCC and he talked about a new winch he had designed. As for being a "Hardcore treerigger", I bet you'll all frown on your nose when hearing hes only 22 years old! But looking at his whole climbing setup and talking with him I was amazed at how inovative he was and he also had a great understanding for ropework. He really has an eye for the small details.

As for who he has been working with on the winch I know not.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Nov 7, 2010)

When it comes down to it, we know what we want!
Jeff


----------



## Norwayclimber (Nov 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> When it comes down to it, we know what we want!
> Jeff



Yup, we want it all! Just like Queen


----------



## jefflovstrom (Nov 7, 2010)

Norwayclimber said:


> Yup, we want it all! Just like Queen



Jag horer deg, bror!
Jeff


----------



## Reg (Nov 8, 2010)

Norwayclimber said:


> As for being a "Hardcore treerigger", I bet you'll all frown on your nose when hearing hes only 22 years old!



In a sense that makes it all the more impressive.

The Stein had to fall within a certain price bracket, but it looks like Steven just went with his imagination regardless of cost. The very best of luck to him


----------



## sgreanbeans (Nov 8, 2010)

Dam lotto tickets, twice a week I play, twice a week I lose.
I need them ALL!! When I win, AND I WILL HIT THAT MOTHER LOAD (i hope)
I am going to buy all of the cool tools out there, fly all of AS to Iowa and then we will play with all the cools stuff I get
"Everybody, youll see that there is a GCRS,HOBBS,STEIN and HARKIN LD's for everyone"

dam lotto


----------



## treeslayer (Nov 8, 2010)

Fear Holmes said:


> Frankly I don't think your question is at all arbitrary. You have a 12:1 winch and want to know how much force you can generate when leaning on it with all your weight. The answer is straightforward: 12 X your effective weight. Your effective weight = W X efficiency; where W is your measured weight and efficiency is the percentage of that W you can bring to bear on the winch handle.



WTF?:dunno:


----------



## jefflovstrom (Nov 8, 2010)

A spamming pool guy.
Jeff


----------



## Onelick (Nov 8, 2010)

Fear,
Don't forget about the length of the handle. That will affect how much torque you will be able to apply to the winch. 
Onelick


----------



## eljefe (Nov 8, 2010)

*Grcs*

Hi,
I've had a GRCS for less than a year. It has been a very, very good investment. All the posts on this have been interesting and to the point. I would like to add 2 things I have done with the GRCS that really only it does well. First, jobs involving long climbs and there are only two of us I have come down and go back up several times. Tiring. The ground guy can winch me back up-- I'm on my climb line and he is raising me with the rigging line. Very safe. The second is moving logs across a creek bed, no access for vehicles and 5 foot deep creek bed. Winch them up, swing them over and lower them on the other side. Sweet. I have used the GRCS for its intended purpose many other times and never had a problem with it. For me it was the exact right tool for the job. I use 5/8 stable braid on the winch. I haven't used the bollard yet. And I don't think the GRCS is over priced. Course I got it when West Spur was running a special on it last winter. And free shipping!
Eljefe


----------



## jefflovstrom (Nov 8, 2010)

OMG! Don't tell me a 'pool guy' spammer has helped continue a thread!
Jeff :angry2:


----------



## lawson's tree s (Jan 8, 2011)

Like my grcs havn't used in awile . going to sell it .


----------



## Rickytree (Jan 8, 2011)

Onelick said:


> Fear,
> Don't forget about the length of the handle. That will affect how much torque you will be able to apply to the winch.
> Onelick


 
For added force I get one ground guy to pull the rope as the other one is tightening it. Kabaam!! works like stink...


----------



## treevet (Jan 8, 2011)

lawson's tree s said:


> Like my grcs havn't used in awile . going to sell it .


 
how much? where ya live?


----------



## Rickytree (Jan 8, 2011)

treevet said:


> how much? where ya live?


 
All over that like a wet shirt...


The GRCS is like having a pencil, some will be able to draw and some will become an artist!!


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Sep 7, 2011)

I love my GCRS. I just got mine at the begining of the summer, and I noticed a few changes from the pics you see on all the websites selling the GCRS. There is only on fairlead on the top. There is a lowering eye that swings out on both sides of the frame. I have used it 3 times and I dont regret buying it, just like I dont regret buying my Stihl MS880 saw.


----------



## ripplerider (Sep 8, 2011)

So the GRCS is handy for accessing the tree spurless also? That would be a big selling point to me. How slow is it when used in this manner? Been dreaming about the Wraptor system for quite a while, seems like the GRCS could possibly kill 2 birds with one stone if it's not too slow. Is it safe to use a cordless drill in this application? How big of a drill would be ideal for this? Lots of questions I know. Lot of places around here you'd never get a crane to.


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Sep 8, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> So the GRCS is handy for accessing the tree spurless also? That would be a big selling point to me. How slow is it when used in this manner? Been dreaming about the Wraptor system for quite a while, seems like the GRCS could possibly kill 2 birds with one stone if it's not too slow. Is it safe to use a cordless drill in this application? How big of a drill would be ideal for this? Lots of questions I know. Lot of places around here you'd never get a crane to.


 
YOud need a really good cordless, I would go for a gas drill myself

Its a force multiplier. On many jobs its worth as much as having an extra guy on the job. Safer and easier for climber and groundie, easier on ropes, more predictable swings and less chance of doing damage to man or property. My poor mans DIY copy is currently broken and having to go back to a rope brake is like going back to hawser ropes and wraps around trunks. 

Id rather give up my pp346xp for a poulan wildthing than give up my winch for a ropebrake (we still use the portys alot of course) on big tree dismantles


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 10, 2011)

Cordless is ok, but a corded high torque unit like the Milwaukee Hole Hog is the best for the job. Good Rigging sells a bit/chuck/whatever for the purpose. When I have used it for re-entering the tree, going working up/down type removals, or just going back for the clock...I have them crank or pull the line to take some of the load of my climb.

Now that i have the Wraptor, I rarely use The Winch for entry.

I've had my unit since 2001 or so, and use it 2-3 time a week at least. Sometimes for just one rig, or for a lot of little pieces over rooftops or gardens. Once you get the low-friction concept down, you learn to lace several redirects throughout the tree, then the groundie can suck into the load so it comes off in a controlled fashion.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Sep 11, 2011)

I want to get a stihl gas drill for use with my GCRS. I would love a wraptor too. Boy my wish list just keeps getting bigger and bigger. lol


----------

