# 100 cord by Christmas (?)



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 25, 2016)

Did a pallet count last night. 88 pallets
22 cord down, 78 to go.
It's a start.
Right now I'm splitting precut rounds, with about seven cord left.
From then on it will be working from 8' logs.
Roughly a cord a day.
I'm going to need more pallets, a lot more... and more Cheerio's.


This area above now looks like this, below, last night.

Last fall this area was a little less than an acre of Poplar trees. It has been slow going but at the end of a year it has worked out well, and all is good.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 25, 2016)




----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 25, 2016)

Lookin good.

How many cords do you have through your SS?


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 25, 2016)

The sides don't break off your racks?


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 25, 2016)

Post #2 top photo you can see 3"x 3" x 1/4" angle bolted on top of the runners. I bought 20' pieces of angle and made the brackets, approximately 880 pieces total. Running the upright past the end of the runner helps as a stop. These below show the angle better. They were the second generation design with angled feet so they would nest together on the truck. Many are beginning to dry rot, which got me looking at alternatives. Rebuilding these was one option, selling green wood, Dino bags, using pallets to stack on, liquid tank frames, using stack racks, and the Posch PackFix. Each had advantages and disadvantages.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 25, 2016)

I have not kept track of cordage very well. I misspoke earlier saying I have had the SSHD two years. It has been three years already. Guessing, between one hundred twenty and one forty on this machine. That may be a low number. I kind of do it by semi loads of logs and sales but I cleared the lot also and split much of it. An hour meter is on the 'to get' list for the three engines. Later... green wood delivery tomorrow. I'd take a lot more of those calls/emails.


----------



## jrider (Sep 25, 2016)

Good luck processing and delivering before Christmas.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 25, 2016)

Sold out of seasoned wood, so don't plan on many deliveries. Today, tomorrow and Tuesday is the last of it. 


Open to suggestions. What is the best way to deliver hundreds of cords of this?
The least expensive money wise would be to make individual socks for each pallet, but that leaves hand unloading. I want to get away from that. One step away from that is cut them open at the wood lot and load into conveyor, into dump box. In that case the netting is just for easier handling and seasoning. Jump to larger truck, to carry piggyback forklift. 24' flatbed could only carry three cord on pallets but it would be very simple and easy. (most orders are three cord or less) But I question if people would pay extra, if any, for that. If I had a truck with forklift capacity it could open up a farmers market option as well on Saturday mornings, a 'here is what you get' first hand look see. More for taking orders than immediate sales. I think that is a different kind of buyer, weekend cottage fire pit, evening burn in the fireplace. I would need to adjust the pricing for less than full cord loads.
Tell me if you think I am dreaming...


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 25, 2016)

Put a crane on your truck.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 25, 2016)

Like a vocational truck crane, or drywall knuckle-boom?
Internet surfing...
I do have more money in the truck than it is worth for resale since replacing the transmission. That would be the plus side of keeping this truck for awhile. (not much money in these medium duty trucks anyway you look at it, compared to the price of used pickups) 
A couple neighbors have chimed in, both business owners. One said a truck will not make you money, but is often a necessity to do the work. Money in equipment is a better investment. The other said it is important to continually upgrade your equipment. The idea is to make money getting the job done, not spend your time working on wore out equipment.


----------



## Full Chisel (Sep 25, 2016)

Are the pallets half cords? I like your setup.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 25, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Like a vocational truck crane, or drywall knuckle-boom?
> Internet surfing...
> I do have more money in the truck than it is worth for resale since replacing the transmission. That would be the plus side of keeping this truck for awhile. (not much money in these medium duty trucks anyway you look at it, compared to the price of used pickups)
> A couple neighbors have chimed in, both business owners. One said a truck will not make you money, but is often a necessity to do the work. Money in equipment is a better investment. The other said it is important to continually upgrade your equipment. The idea is to make money getting the job done, not spend your time working on wore out equipment.




Like a Pal finger knuckle boom, or even an old log loader. You'd need to slide the bed back 4-5 to mount it (or cut it. Put sides on the truck and stack the bundles 2 high.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 26, 2016)

Full Chisel said:


> Are the pallets half cords? I like your setup.


The pallets stack out to 1/4 cord.
The volume of the Posch drum is 1.6 cu. meters, or 56.54672 cu ft. (1 cu. meters = 35.3417 cu. ft.)

Thanks for the comment. The process is always evolving.


----------



## row.man (Sep 26, 2016)

How about an overhead rail and winch on a trolley like many grave stone delivery trucks have, that way you loose no bed area on the truck.
A pallet jack would be much cheaper and easier than hauling a fork lift around.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 26, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I have not kept track of cordage very well. I misspoke earlier saying I have had the SSHD two years. It has been three years already. Guessing, between one hundred twenty and one forty on this machine. That may be a low number. I kind of do it by semi loads of logs and sales but I cleared the lot also and split much of it. An hour meter is on the 'to get' list for the three engines. Later... green wood delivery tomorrow. I'd take a lot more of those calls/emails.



Any regrets in going to a SS over a hydraulic unit? It appears you're pleased.... Is it really as good as all the videos make it out to be?


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 26, 2016)

CaseyForrest said:


> Any regrets in going to a SS over a hydraulic unit? It appears you're pleased.... Is it really as good as all the videos make it out to be?



You should not believe a video. 
Come try it out and see for yourself. But don't be fooled by your initial response. To be sure you will need to run a full tank of gas through it.
I can dust off the TW-6 and you can run a tank of gas through that too to do a well rounded comparison.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 26, 2016)

I wont be splitting the amount of wood you do. At most Ill do about 15 per year. And that would be a heavy year.

Ive got to believe based on all the reviews Ive read, and folks such as yourself that choose one over a hydraulic unit to actually process firewood..... Theres got to be something there....

Thanks for the offer... I may take you up on it. I hear resale on them is close to new prices so If I didn't like it....


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 26, 2016)

I'll buy you breakfast. Your going to need a big one...just because you won't want to stop for lunch, and refueling will not be till 2:00.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 26, 2016)

Feeling spry.... I like what I see based on what I split...

Order form for the HD with Honda and table submitted.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 26, 2016)

Monday morning delivery.
Never again this way. One strap was loose and unhooked by the end of my driveway from the load settling. Unloading by hand was extremely slow. By the third pallet the home owner and I pushed the last two off the side of the truck.

I have delivered here before. The kind of drive you back in from the road, tight, tree lined, and concrete. Not something to back a 'big heavy truck' on. I consider mine a light to medium duty at 20,500 gvw. Near the house I backed off the drive several feet towards the stacking area. The side slope of the truck was enough to not be able to dump even if I had one.

My first thought is go to a bigger truck and piggyback lift for any concrete or dirt driveway, and unload in the road.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 26, 2016)

CaseyForrest said:


> Order form for the HD with Honda and table submitted.


Does this mean your not coming over to split my wood for me?


----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 26, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Does this mean your not coming over to split my wood for me?


If you come split mine. 

sent from a field


----------



## NSMaple1 (Sep 27, 2016)

A lot of used mid-sized trucks for sale around here have knuckle boom loaders on them. Seems to be the ticket for this. Building supply places use them all the time for unloading pallets of -whatever- at building sites. Bricks, blocks, shingles - they deal with this regularly. Might find a good deal on a whole new (used) truck setup for that.

I would forget about figuring out something involving a pallet jack or forklift. You won't be moving a pallet jack on anything except smooth pavement or concrete, and you still have to get the pallets from truck to ground - and a forklift capable enough will take up a lot of room on the back. And GVWR. And be in the way a lot of the time. And be another mechanical piece of gear with an engine & hydraulics to maintain.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 27, 2016)

Both good points. Yes, medium duty trucks are very reasonable. The piggyback usually hangs off the back of a truck and it is something I already have. It is a great piece of equipment in tight area. I use it for moving logs and pallets, and loading the truck. I bought it for its greater lifting capacity (6,500 lbs.) over a tractor front end loader. But now with 1/4 pallets that capacity goes unused. It is also a single purpose machine, unlike a tractor. Trade offs..



.View attachment 527920

View attachment 527921


----------



## jrider (Sep 27, 2016)

You have a pretty slick set up. I've been thinking of ways to change mine/make it more efficient or easier on the body. My problem is, I've been doing it this way for quite some time and without investing a serious chunk of money, I don't see myself changing. All of my wood is hand tossed into windrows to dry and then hand tossed into my dump truck. I could see people paying more for some sweet stacks like you have but I'm not sure it would be enough to cover the cost of the new equipment I need. I do applaud you for continuing to try new ways.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 27, 2016)




----------



## muddstopper (Sep 27, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> View attachment 527952


Is that all you could get on that truck. If you add a rack you could stack a little more over top of the cab and get a real load on that truck. In reality, I doubt I could get that load home without losing half of it along the way.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 27, 2016)

jrider: That is the rub. Is the equipment worth the cost?
And without a college education how do you figure cost/payback, or cost comparison of two choices realistically?


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 27, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> jrider: That is the rub. Is the equipment worth the cost?
> And without a college education how do you figure cost/payback, or cost comparison of two choices realistically?



The dilemma of most business owners.

IMO you have half of what you need and a truck that can deliver the bags is the other half. I think seasoned in the bag wood is a great selling point for many customers. You could advertise that for let's say $25 extra a bag and green bulk wood for less for the folks that are buying ahead.

F/L on the truck, you could set the bags nearly anywhere, but you have to haul the F/L and will need a twin axle truck. You said 25 bags will fit? (I think?). That's 8.3 cords... around 25klbs. F/L is what, 8k? Truck 15k empty... 48k, too much for a single rear.

Othe option is a knuckle loader. Can only offload on the curb or along a driveway more or less. Will lose ~4ft of bed, but could double stack the bags. Knuckle might weigh 3k.

My thoughts anyhow.


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 27, 2016)

Just wondering whats the estimated weight of one of those pallets. While expensive, I would look at one of those small knuckleboom loader like you see on a forwarder. They have a small foot print so would be easy to mount just in front of the truck bed. Weight of boom assembly would be about the same as one of those pallets of wood. They can also be easily modified to handle pallets. Another plus of having the knuckle boom is you could use the truck to pick up logs to haul home for processing.


----------



## cantoo (Sep 27, 2016)

What about a roll off type trailer? They make all sizes. This is a bigger one but lots more out there. They also use a roll off type for moving garden sheds. Google that too.


----------



## Tenderfoot (Sep 27, 2016)

I have been delivering with an F350 SRW and a military M101a2 trailer. I can fit most anywhere, and if I do not feel comfortable backing in, when the trailer is empty you can swing it around by hand to hitch up facing the other direction so I can pull out. This combanation can comfortably (and legally by GVW) deliver about 1 1/4 cords. Done about 1 3/4 before though.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 28, 2016)

Some good ideas.
They are not firewood bags, rather a netting that is wrapped around drum and the drum is pulled out the top. Each pallet is 4' x 4', and 1/4 cord each, estimated weight 1,000 lbs. seasoned, 1,450 lbs green (both numbers just a guess). 24' flatbed would only be three cord (12 pallets), single stacked, and 6,500 lbs. for the lift, 25,000 lbs. payload total if hauling green wood. 57" plus, for height plus the pallet. I don't think double stacking would work. It hardly works on flat ground, but I think the overall height would exceed the maximum road height, although I don't really know what that height is. I looked online at the Mt-52 mini skid steer. Capacity is 850 lbs. Scratch that...
I stopped and talked to a guy today that sells to restaurants. Uses wheeled metal carts, 5' long x 3' high x 16", and a lift gate.
Still drifting towards the big flatbed. With the piggyback lift there is good visibility even with a 5' high load, unlike say a skid steer. 
Have to hit my goal first. I can work at getting a CDL. That is the first step towards a bigger truck, along with blogging with you guys and asking questions, even at the chance of looking stupid. There is a point, maybe an age, where that (looking stupid) doesn't carry much weight.
Also talk with a friend who has used dump trailers. He said they leave a long trail of wood when dumped. That doesn't work for me in most places I've delivered. Dump box on my truck would be much higher and is probably one of the cheaper options. Or, simply a trailer for the forklift. Some tilt trailers have a 4' flat deck on the front for two more pallets.
Lots of time to think about it. Thanks for the ideas.


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 28, 2016)

Well, the hudson 400 log loader is rated at 1260 lbs at 13ft, so right in the load range of your pallets. I dont agree with your friend about the dump trailers leaving a long trail of wood when they dump. I have never had that problem with my dump trailer. I suppose if you try to dump and pull forward at the same time it could leave a trail of wood. I raise my dump all the way and then drive out from under the wood and it ends up in a big pile. .


----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 28, 2016)

Dump trailer will leave the pile more spread out than a dump truck. Just the simple fact it's lower to the ground. 

sent from a field


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 28, 2016)

CaseyForrest said:


> Dump trailer will leave the pile more spread out than a dump truck. Just the simple fact it's lower to the ground.
> 
> sent from a field


I cant agree or disagree about the difference in dumping between a dump truck and a dump trailer. I have never used a dump truck to haul firewood. I dont really consider what I have dumped from my dump trailer to be spread out, but Maybe I just dont know what I am missing.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 28, 2016)

jrider said:


> I've been thinking of ways to change mine/make it more efficient or easier on the body.


It looks like your doing mostly tree service wood, in which case, this might be a good fit for bigger wood.
I have always been drawn to the self propelled PowerSplit or TimberDevil vertical split machines with conveyor. No idea what the pricing is on a one man machine, but the ergonomics of standing up straight, the log lift, and conveyor may just be worth it in the long run. 
It is a shame there is no way to try one out before buying.


----------



## jrider (Sep 29, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> It looks like your doing mostly tree service wood, in which case, this might be a good fit for bigger wood.
> I have always been drawn to the self propelled PowerSplit or TimberDevil vertical split machines with conveyor. No idea what the pricing is on a one man machine, but the ergonomics of standing up straight, the log lift, and conveyor may just be worth it in the long run.
> It is a shame there is no way to try one out before buying.


Wow, you are a mind reader because I have recently been looking at those machines and thinking they are pretty slick. I could still windrow my splits like I do now which I've had great success with so I don't see any reason to change that aspect of how I do things. I would love to demo one of them for a day if they were only closer or if I knew someone who had one.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 29, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Well, the hudson 400 log loader is rated at 1260 lbs at 13ft, so right in the load range of your pallets. I dont agree with your friend about the dump trailers leaving a long trail of wood when they dump. I have never had that problem with my dump trailer. I suppose if you try to dump and pull forward at the same time it could leave a trail of wood. I raise my dump all the way and then drive out from under the wood and it ends up in a big pile. .



Dump truck leaves a fairly long trail. Metal floor helps it slide better. (one of mine is metal, the other is wood). Also dump angle.

I usually dump and at a certain point start creeping forward (it almost pushes the truck anyhow). A 2 cord load spreads to around 10-12ft wide, 20-25ft long.


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 29, 2016)

We are certainly comparing different size trucks and trailers, apple to oranges. Probably my fault, since I dont sell firewood, I dont think on the same size scale as folks that do sell wood. My little 6x10 dump only holds around a cord or so. A trail 12ft wide and 25ft long behind my trailer wouldnt be a pile, it would be more like spreading grass seed.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Been looking at Truck Paper in the evenings. There are over four hundred tandem axle flatbeds listed, many 21' in the lower pricing, below $20.000, but many 24' with piggyback set-ups in the $20,000. - $26,000. range. It's a jump, but I do not have a pick up for starters. So price comparison would mean pickup/dump trailer.
For both loading and delivering the piggyback would seem to be very efficient. When I bought the lift this is what I imagined, only lifting the bigger 4,000 lb. 3/4 cord racks. Just to much stacking... So then I was thinking smaller, trailer, skid steer with forks, but visibility is very poor with a 5' high load. I'm coming back to a version of the original plan. The smaller mid size truck I bought was an affordable stepping stone at the time at $4,700.
I did decide on one thing yesterday. I am not going to make the 650 mile trip to the Paul Bunyan Show next weekend to see the processor shoot-out. If you have to re-split what they split then what is the point. For now my focus is on better loading/delivery, and maybe a used live log deck on the back burner. Which means this week check out canvas shops to make 'socks' to fit over the pallet netting, and stop by the DMV about CDL requirements. And split way, way more wood...










EDIT: Mis-spoke: 6 1/2 hour drive to Paul Bunyon Show, not 650 miles.


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 29, 2016)

Forgot about the Paul Bunyon show. I was considering going, now it looks like i will have to make that decision really quick.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Sep 29, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> and stop by the DMV about CDL requirements. .



If you aren't going to pull a trailer, you only need a B. Thats assuming your straight truck has a GVW of 26,001 or greater. If you are going to pull a trailer rated over 10,001 pounds and the gross combined rating of truck and trailer is over 26,001 you need an A. If either rig has air brakes, you need to get an air endorsement. I covered all my bases at once and got an A with air and tanker endorsements and I also added a chauffeurs endorsement. I'm not entirely certain if an owner/operator needs a DOT card, but an employee that drives does. You will be required to take your original birth certificate in as well as make a declaration of intrastate or interstate. If you don't plan on leaving MI, you want intrastate. If you get the enhanced CDL, you wont have to take your BC in when its time to renew. This is all after you obtain a learners permit, get some hours behind the wheel and then take a knowledge and skills test.

You may be able to get farm plates and then simply get a farm endorsement on your regular operators license. But you would then be limited to a set distance from your "farm" which is 150 miles. And the need for an F endorsement only applies to pulling a trailer when GVW of the truck is over 26,001

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,8611,7-127-1627_8669_53324---,00.html


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

CaseyForrest said:


> http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,8611,7-127-1627_8669_53324---,00.html


 I can do this! Thanks...


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 29, 2016)

I grand fathered from a regular class a to a cdl class a, so its been a while. With that said, I believe log trucks are covered under a special agr permit. I would think firewood would be the same as logs. You would have to check with your local dmv to be certain. A trailer weighing more than 10,000 lbs doesnt necessary mean you have to have a class a license. The trailer can weigh 15,000lbs and the truck 10,000, 25000 total combined, and you wouldnt need a cdl license. Now just because your truck and loaded trailer doesnt weigh 26,001 lbs or more, doesnt mean you dont need a cdl license. if your combined weight *rating* of your truck and trailer is greater than 26,001 lbs, even tho your total weight is less than the 26,001 lbs, you would need a cdl licence, a class b if the trailer is 10,000lbs or less and a class a if the trailer is 10,001 lbs or more.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 29, 2016)

Curious how much the weight of the a straight truck might be to figure a ball park idea of what the tare load or load capacity would be on 52,000 gvwr tandem axle straight truck, like in post #41. I really have no idea. My piggy back lift is 6,500 lbs. lift capacity, and also 6,500 lbs. weight wise.

The 2000 GMC 5500 pictured has a gvwr of 20,500 lbs and weighs 11,500 lbs. Tare capacity is 9,000 lbs., although it is licensed for 26,000 lb. gvw.


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 30, 2016)

Not sure how the laws are now, and they vary from state to state. Used to be, and may still be,, NC did not recognize gvwr. You could tag a pickup truck for 40,000 lbs and as long as the truck had the correct wheel base, and you could distribute the weight so you where not overweight on one axle, then you could haul the 40,000 bs on the pickup truck. That was a long time ago and probably not that way now. Hauling that piggy back forklift, one thing you will certainly have to watch for is overloading the rear axles. That thing hangs a pretty good bit behind the rear wheels so it doesnt load the truck evenly. adding weight to the rear and taking weight off the front. you could be legal on total weight, but heavy on the rear axle and still get a ticket.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 30, 2016)

That's why if I transport the piggyback I would need a tandem axle truck with possibly a double frame, not sure about the frame. I can not hang the lift off the truck I have now. Rain day, again. Lots to read on CDL and a garage to straighten up.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 30, 2016)

Empty weight for a decent 3 axle ~18-20ft bed.... in the 15-20k lb area.

That's something well built. Double frame, 10+ speed trans, lockers, 8+liter engine...

You don't process wood in the rain? We work rain or shine aside from hurricane type weather or very cold days (like -30* or colder)


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 30, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> You don't process wood in the rain?


I'll have to if I want to make my 100 cord goal. Or buy a truck come Spring. Just picked up a 12' x 12' canopy on year end sale today. Snow, cold, I don't mind...wet, I need a push.


----------



## muddstopper (Sep 30, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I'll have to if I want to make my 100 cord goal. Or buy a truck come Spring. Just picked up a 12' x 12' canopy on year end sale today. Snow, cold, I don't mind...wet, I need a push.


Pretty day here, 43* this morning, about 75* now. Decided to go fishing instead of work. we dont keep anything we catch, but we probably caught 50 or 60 bream. Not the right time to be worrying about firewood, worry about wood when the fish aint biteing. I think I might be getting the hang of this retirement thing.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 30, 2016)

26* this morning, about 50* now. Sunny and t shirt weather. Can't ask for better!


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Sep 30, 2016)




----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 2, 2016)

This setting goals is fine. So far 100 cord is still possible. It changes things though. I feel like I'm getting behind after this week, and need to play catch up. The week before last I pushed one day, and it hurt production for the next two days. This week started with a stretched out delivery, and ended with four days of wet. It is all part of it. When this row of rounds pictured above is split, I'll need to set up the cutting table again. I'm well into the rounds already. Cutting logs will add two steps. Loading the table with logs, and of course cutting rounds to length. 
The empty racks have piled up. Wish I could sell them. People have called and want me to deliver them. Of course they do. Not going there. I've sold a few when delivering wood and they are a pain to get off the truck by myself, especially the bigger ones. The price is right. I'll load them with the lift and they can take it from there.
I did start studying for the CDL, and ordered wheels and tires from SuperSplit for a four wheel running gear mod. Been thinking about that since I got the splitter.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 9, 2016)

Log deck repaired and dead. It is not a live deck. Beautiful weather for cutting/splitting. Our son is going to help today. He has not run the Posch yet, but will not be able to say that by the end of the day.
Load log deck/cutting/splitting/Posch/unload... I'm looking forward to see how this goes with two people. Previously, when I used the scaffolding as a bin under the conveyor, a second person could not stack if someone was splitting because it was too dangerous with splits falling in the same spot the stacker was grabbing splits. It was pretty much a one man system. With the Posch two drum set up and turn table that is no longer an issue it was. Today should be fun... Maybe post some photos tonight.
Met the brother of a long time customer that does canvas work. Together we came up with a design for a sock to slide over a single pallet of wood to contain the load for deliveries on the flatbed. He is going to do a proto type, a top with two wear strips for truck load securing straps, and open slit overlap on the vertical side with four bands of webbing, D-buckle and velcro to cinch it up. If it works we will do six total for deliveries.
Friday his brother picked up 3/4 cord that was in one of my larger covered racks. It is really nice firewood, which makes me think I really, really need to cover the Posch pallets I'm now doing as well. The 4' x 4' x 6' high racks were covered with a piece of 6' x 6' tarp and nailed with lath strips on two sides. The loaded Posch pallets have nothing to nail to. I laid the coverings out to dry and thought if I fold each corner in 1' the diagonal remains 6', same as the sides. If I sew the corners, making a tube at each corner I could use baling twine as a pull cord to hold them in place. Seems simple enough. Do they make iron seamers for that, like they do for rubber roofing? Probably just have to sew them, about 8" per corner is all.
Must be duck season. I hear a lot of shooting this morning.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 9, 2016)

Went well for being my sons first time on the Posch. He is good on the forklift and with a saw. Did not set any records, but we had fun. There is a learning curve to using the Posch, to wrapping the netting and raising the drum at the same time. Perhaps a flow control valve would be helpful on the wrapping mode so that full lever could be used. As it is, it will just take time for him to get a feel for it. After one hundred pallets I've gotten it down to nine wraps per pallet with good coverage. On one pallet he raised the drum too fast, about half way up, leaving a single ply of netting. We pulled the drum and cut the bottom half of the netting off, throwing the splits in the second drum to redo. I was telling him to go slower. At the end of the day he said he found going faster was easier for him with the Posch. What ever works. 
Most of this firewood is red oak with the bark falling off. You would think it had been pulled from a river bottom as wet and heavy as it is.
76 days till Christmas. 71 cords to go.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 9, 2016)

This customer bought six cords of firewood and put to use eight of my old firewood racks. Nice sunny spot for them, and easily covered. Sold two more firewood racks today. Thirty of these to go yet. I've had a lot of calls to deliver the racks but I'm not going there. They are too big, too heavy, and too awkward for me to handle alone without the forklift. Glad I'm not stacking firewood any longer for my firewood sales. Simply too much time and work to be able to do enough volume that way. The loose splits are the last cord and a half delivery doing it the old way.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 9, 2016)

Monday's goal: 10/10/16 two cords: cut/split/Posch'd
Weather forecast: high 66*, full sun.


----------



## jrider (Oct 9, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> View attachment 530514
> This customer bought six cords of firewood and put to use eight of my old firewood racks. Nice sunny spot for them, and easily covered. Sold two more firewood racks today. Thirty of these to go yet. I've had a lot of calls to deliver the racks but I'm not going there. They are too big, too heavy, and too awkward for me to handle alone without the forklift. Glad I'm not stacking firewood any longer for my firewood sales. Simply too much time and work to be able to do enough volume that way. The loose splits are the last cord and a half delivery doing it the old way.


I agree about splitting. When moving 100+ cords there just isn't time to stack even if it pays well.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 10, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Monday's goal: 10/10/16 two cords: cut/split/Posch'd
> Weather forecast: high 66*, full sun.





Sandhill Crane said:


> Monday's goal: 10/10/16 two cords: cut/split/Posch'd


Reality check.
1 1/4 cord...


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 10, 2016)

Tuesdays goal: 10/11/16 two cords: cut/split/Posch'd


----------



## jrider (Oct 11, 2016)

Is this a full time thing for you this time of year?


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 11, 2016)

Unhealthy isn't it!
I should maybe schedule an appointment...
Edit: Just a little more time with the MS661 first.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 12, 2016)

Got a Sales Tax Letter of Inquiry. I paid, just used the wrong form, not the 'new' form. Just came from paying someone to straighten it out. Ugh. 
Said she was doing a lot of these this year.
I was already sore (in a good way) from doing firewood. Now I'm just... sore
Push on...
I'm looking forward to tomorrow. I have a package coming. Two SS wheels and tires for my wagon running gear build. Still in the planning stage but getting parts together.


----------



## damato333 (Oct 15, 2016)

What are you getting for a cord? Around me it's $200 a cord. I haven't seen anyone around me with the bags. I like the idea. You know exactly how much wood you have. And the wood is always clean. I load with Branco rock bucket and it's a lot better then doing it by hand. I have been thinking about getting a dump truck with a lift gate. I could use a pallet jack to get the pallets of the truck.


----------



## KiwiBro (Oct 15, 2016)




----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 15, 2016)

45 year high school reunion tonight! Wow...

Damato333: The past five years it's been $225. ($12.74, or 6% sales tax included) per cord for Oak. Plus delivery if needed. Next year I expect to hand unload again. When I get to the point of off loading with the forklift (read bigger truck) there will be a pallet charge of $6.00 ea. added, or $24.00 per cord.

This past week a guy made a prototype 'delivery sock' to secure the load on the pallet, which will then be loaded on the truck and secured with two straps, as required by law. We tried it out in the wood lot, and noted two necessary changes. One: raising the upper cinch strap and then centering the two middle ones. Two: Reversing the orientation of the cinching straps for better accessibility if hand unloading. I am having six 'delivery socks' made in a bright yellow. I wanted florescent green but it was only available in a much lighter weight material. Orange was my next choice... so, yellow by default..


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 16, 2016)

No sales tax here thankfully. Outside of city limits.

What law says you need to strap those bags with 2 staps? Here the norm is 1 strap over 2 except the last row gets 1 strap over 2 and one across the back.
That's on a flatbed. With side boards, no need to strap them.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 16, 2016)

Two straps per load, minimum one strap every ten feet. I'm assuming a pallet to be 'a load' or two pallets side by side to be a load. Paraphrasing, but from the MI commercial drivers license manual. I'm also assuming this to be a flatbed, and not a box truck/trailer, dump or otherwise.
As posted before, my first load of loose thrown settled quickly and the straps were loose by the time I got out the drive and on the road. One strap hung unhooked and completely free.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Oct 16, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Two straps per load, minimum one strap every ten feet. I'm assuming a pallet to be 'a load' or two pallets side by side to be a load. Paraphrasing, but from the MI commercial drivers license manual. I'm also assuming this to be a flatbed, and not a box truck/trailer, dump or otherwise.


The loophole in the law, if you want to call it a loophole. I call it a technicality.... make your sides and rear gate tall enough to at miminum be as tall as a loaded pallet. Pulled into an inspection station years ago and got cited because the B&B trees I was hauling were technically unsecured because the 2' side boards did not extend above the balls. And they were not strapped down. BUT, a single strap across 1 row of root balls would be sufficient. There isn't enough room for 2. If your load consists of a single row of pallets, technically they could cite you for only 1 strap. 2 rows of pallets under 10' long would fall within 2 straps every 10'. Technically. Weigh masters can be rather a holeish if they are having a bad day. 

sent from a field


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 16, 2016)

I would rather use 6' side boards all the way around and roll-up cover, much simpler. The pallets are 48" wide, and side by side they cover the stake pockets making them unusable. If and when I change trucks I'll be looking for one with a 102" wide bed for that reason.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 16, 2016)

Mods:
Conveyor:
I sometimes get a small chunk of wood or bark on the lower roller of the firewood conveyor that throws the belt tracking off. Fishing it out can be a chore. There is expanded metal protection, it is low to the ground, and very shaded between the belts. The first thing noticed of course is the belt tracking to one side, and then a lump between the drum and belt. Blown snow does the same. When compressed it turns to lumps of ice which also throws off tracking.
I doubt I'll be using the conveyor this winter with my set up. I think it may be a good time for a mod. To remove the expanded metal and replace it with a removable guard and also add an attached tool box for flash light, dedicated wrenches, grease gun, and a spot to pin the removable tongue.
It also need zerks added to the pivot point of the wheel support structure. Seizing at that point has been a long standing issue when I need to raise and lower it. I emailed Built-Rite this summer and got a quote of $450. for components to convert the raising/lowering from crank to hydraulics. It sits stationary for a year at a time, and only on occassion does the height get moved. Without zerks and the ability to get grease in there the tube in tube hinge seizes. No hydraulics at that price.

Another mod is for the SS.
I want to use the quad to move the splitter.
Wheels/tires and bolt-on T axle arrived this past week, and go-kart spindle kit should be here tomorrow. The parts are to make a wagon running gear pivoting front axle with tongue to bolt under the flywheel/engine end of the splitter. The existing axle will be moved to bolt under the wedge/table end allowing me to push the splitter up to the conveyor. Hopefully the forklift tube will still stay and if needed I can still use them. They should bolt back in as it is now with one bolt on each end. The optional SS hitch on the table end does not work for me because of the conveyor. I mentioned this mod to Paul at SS two years ago in an email suggesting he offer it as an option. There was no response. I mentioned it in an email again when ordering the parts, that they are for a four wheel mod.
So the idea is for the axle to pivot side to side to eliminate tipping/rocking when using the splitter. Then cut the axle stubs off and weld on the go-kart spindle kit with trailing arms. The tongue set up will be the interesting part to get it right. I'm guessing the spindle and trailing arm tie rod point distance should be equal to the tongue pivot and tie rod connection point distance, to turn and follow properly. The tongue itself also needs a pivot up and down, and to be able to raise it vertically out of the way. Some one else will be doing the welding so uncertain of the time line. If it is soon, and I hope so, then I'll pull the SS and use the TW-6 for everyday splitting and see how that goes with smaller stuff.


----------



## T. Mainus (Oct 17, 2016)

Just talking out loud here,
I understand the reasoning for using the netting system in the yard, it reduces the handling of the wood, it seasons better etc.. But for delivery wouldn't it be easier to just lift the pallets over a dump trailer, cut the netting and then just deliver the wood that way. Seems like a lot less screwing around on the delivery end. All of our customers are fine with a big pile of wood in the driveway. Unless your trying to do multiple deliveries at once, or have a long distance between deliveries.


----------



## muddstopper (Oct 17, 2016)

T. Mainus said:


> Just talking out loud here,
> I understand the reasoning for using the netting system in the yard, it reduces the handling of the wood, it seasons better etc.. But for delivery wouldn't it be easier to just lift the pallets over a dump trailer, cut the netting and then just deliver the wood that way. Seems like a lot less screwing around on the delivery end. All of our customers are fine with a big pile of wood in the driveway. Unless your trying to do multiple deliveries at once, or have a long distance between deliveries.


Good point.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

If I already had a dump that would be the way to do it. Neighbor has one ton with high sides. The high sides make loading difficult as well. From the back works without the tailgate in place, but still climbing about and basically hand loading. The netting hooks on the firewood a bit when removing it. I had thought of loading with the conveyor but that gets into a lot of hand work again. Hand work is all right, but over many, many cords it is a lot of time and effort. In the mean time I'll continue to unload by hand off the flatbed. I wish I could rent a dump trailer to try. It would be lower and easier to load, but I'm picturing hard to maneuver in half the places I go unless I had a hitch on both ends of the truck. I'm good at backing a trailer. Just can't do it very well in the winter months especially up snow covered rises in narrow drives and no where to turn around, unless your parked in the garage to begin with. Friends have a drive like that. The turn around does not work unless you start in the garage. Everybody else has to back 150' around a curve.
Short list: -dump box for truck 
-trailer for fork lift 
-larger truck to carry piggyback

Only one spindle came in, the other is back ordered. This one will work well with, or without, the one inch axle spacer provided, and lock nut on the end. I know you guys like pictures.... When done I hope it looks like a factory option.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Cord split today, (0).
Went to 45 year high school class reunion. Lots of fun, and folks came from all over the country. Lots of hand shaking, moving in close to hear over everyone else and the music. Lots of good finger foods with dinner. Short of it, I have a head cold. Today I gave it Niquil and a rest, tomorrow I am driving the flatbed 260 miles one way to pick up a Kory Farms 3000 running gear and wagon top frame. When I found out 'residential shipping' was $500. I called and canceled shipping. It will still cost sixty gallons of diesel at seven to eight miles a gallon. Fresh air should do me good. I have chronic lung issues that don't bother day to day. A head cold however is a different matter, that if drops in my chest can side line me for weeks. Fresh air and lots of water are good. Stay away from dairy for a bit.
The wagon will be for staging rounds on the opposite side of splitter. I have found I'm getting sore from using one side of my body more than the other every day. I'm hoping this will help balance out how I'm working. Do 1/3 cord on one side of splitter and 1/3 on the other. It may in fact be slower if I load the wagon and then have to move it in place but what I'm doing at the splitter needs adjusting.


----------



## cantoo (Oct 17, 2016)

Sandhill crane, I built this flatbed dump myself. We use it all the time and haul tons of stuff. I have 4' racks for it and for short runs I can put a full cord on it and haul safely. Not sure how much I paid for the truck anymore but I think it was around 5000. The flatbed started out as a slide in insert that I robbed for the parts I needed. I bought the rest of the steel new and it was under 500. For tight places I use the truck and for all others I use the dump trailer. Dump trailer was also used, needed tires was around 2500 a few years ago.
I handload onto my conveyor which dumps into either the truck or trailer. This gets rid of all the small crap. I think you are over thinking the mesh, just use it to dry the wood and make storage easier. Then load onto whatever and dump in the driveway. A truck big enough to haul firewood and the forklift is really going to be a pain to get around to sites.


----------



## cantoo (Oct 17, 2016)

I also have a couple of trailers that I plan to do the same thing you are going to do with. I plan to load the rounds with my manure tine forks. Been thinking of putting a cylinder on it to tip the rounds but I also have conveyor rollers that I might put on the trailer. Now all I need to buy is some time.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Thanks for the input. That's why I keep coming back to this site. To see what others are trying and what works, or doesn't work for them. There are pluses to off loading the pallets in the yard. Part of working alone is being mindful of hazards, of getting hurt with no one around. Loading with a conveyor would work, climbing in a dump truck for every 1/4 cord pallet does not. Obviously each delivery system has pluses and minuses. If I choose the forklift route, and the lift is down I'm dead in the water. And the lift approach has other hazards, that of unloading in the road at times with a machine or messing with straps in traffic. I keep adjusting as I go. Sometimes over thinking it...


----------



## cantoo (Oct 17, 2016)

Sorry, forgot to attach the picture.


----------



## cantoo (Oct 17, 2016)

I built this one for even less money. Unfortunately I never got to use it, my wife sold it before I had the chance. I buy and build a ton of stuff and erything is for sale, so she sold it. Said I didn't need 2 trucks, fooled her I had 2 more hidden at work.


----------



## T. Mainus (Oct 17, 2016)

We use an 8x14 PJ deck over dump trailer. The sides fold down so you could literally set the pallets in the trailer and then cut the netting. The picture is from loading right from the conveyor while splitting. That is a little over loaded but probably a cord plus another face cord.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 8, 2016)

Dec. 8th:
Beautiful fall. I should have hit it a bit harder, ain't that the truth. 
The weather has turned so I dropped the mast today and pulled it in till spring.
50 cord cut/split/palletized, 200 pallets. I had help a couple days that my son got out for a few hours each time. Mostly we made fun of it. It's a bit of a drive for him in the first place, so first bit of business is going out for breakfast and catching up, and we knocked off around noon, spending time with his mom as well. Hardly enough time for him to get a good feel of the machine. Plan to continue to cut rounds thru the winter so there is a spot for a couple more loads of logs. One hundred pallets are covered with weather protection, and I'll continue with that, catching up on the first ones that didn't get covered as long as the weather permits moving them to do so. It seems to have made a difference and the covers should be reusable.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 9, 2016)

Stopped by the machine shop this morning to check on my SS mod project. No progress. Disappointing, as it has been well over a month.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 9, 2016)

Go get yourself a mig welder and I'll come show how to use it. 

sent from a field


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 10, 2016)

-Thanks Casey. But no mig for me.
After this years changes, which were several, I'm going to need to save my pennies till spring so I can order logs early and get a jump on things early in 2017. Tools are great but I need logs to process to keep the cash flow going. I will need logs and pallets in the spring before money for this years work begins to come in next summer. Everything split this year sells next year, with the exception of yesterday. Also January is sales tax, plates, vehicle insurance as well. I like doing firewood, making it pay off is another thing.
-I've been sold out since Labor Day.
-A regular called yesterday, a regular pain.
-You ever have one of those regulars that think their special? Anyway, calls at 1:00, and says can I come in an hour and pick up the four cord you said you'd save for me. Pissed me off for a second right there, but I was expecting it, and got over it quickly. I changed my policy this year, because last year I did save four cord for him. He would pick up a half a cord every ten days or so. Screw that crap... This year when people asked me to 'save' wood for them the answer was a flat no to everyone, first come first serve, no exceptions. Okay so then he wanted green wood , sending someone else to pick it up. We loaded one and a quarter cord using the conveyor, or five pallets. The conveyor belt doesn't track well when it gets wind blown snow packed and lumped on the lower drum. We fought that a bit as clearing it is very difficult to reach. Told him if he wants more this was the last week, period, and even that was dependent on how much snow we get. Fifteen miles from here they got nine inches of snow the night before last and its been blowing since. Big lake effect (Lake Michigan) is fairly unpredictable. The new wood lot will not be as accessible this year either.
-What was nice, hand loading into the conveyer was that I found the splits had begun to season quite well on the pallets, better than I've seen mine do before. The cleared space for the wood lot is new this year, as are the pallets and netting. Sun and air flow!!!! Yes!!!! I've also begun to cover the pallet tops, but these were not covered.
-It has taken a long time to get set up, and I am very happy with the results so far. I had the stumps hauled off, and crushed concrete brought in and leveled. Guys did a great job. I got four semi loads of logs and borrowed money to imported the PackFix. Each step cost money. I still need to get production up, which for now simply means putting in more hours on the saw/splitter and forklift. The PackFix wasn't really up and running until the very end of July, and then almost a month sorting out how it works, getting decent used pallets in the beginning, and a tree trimmer out to clear a couple small dead limbs 40' up before getting really set up and running. Very, very happy with results.
-Two small disappointments with the PackFix, really hardly worth mentioning.
I should add, I don't know of anyone else in the states that uses a PackFix. The importer mentioned someone in Michigans upper peninsula had ordered one also. I gave him permission to pass on my email but I never heard anything.
One: it takes four pallets instead of three to equal a full cord stacked up in my racks. (no one has said three pallets to a cord, I was just hoping) The drum volume converted from metric comes out to 56.5 cu. ft. (times three = 169.5 cu. ft.) (times 4 = 226 cu.ft.) Four pallets stacked is one cord, often times a bit more, by two, three, four cu. ft. What that means is the expense of one more pallet, netting, and time... to process a full cord. 169.5 cu.ft falls far short of 190 cu. ft. loose thrown volume most people selling firewood go by. 190 cu. ft. in this case is far short when stacking it up as well. 226 cu. ft. is pretty close, being on the heavy side. I believe it's possible 12" splits may possibly be done in three pallets, but I've no call to try it. I doubt people would buy 12" splits, and that in itself would be more cutting/splitting for a cord. Shorter splits seems to be a Euro thing.
Two: The PackFix is powered by a vertical shaft engine that sits on top of the hydraulic cabinet. (you can see the muffler in post #83.) When pull starting the engine after a rain, water spins out of the vented engine combing. I'm afraid, given a chance, that could freeze and really screw things up, which is one of several reasons why I dropped the mast and stored it.
With those two exceptions, this machine is well thought out, quality build is beautiful, and the paint finish is no exception. Everything you would expect from a German parent company, and Euro build, in this case Austria. It does what it was designed to do, and does it well. Specs suggested 50-60 pallets per roll of netting, and I'm getting 50-54, or @ 50 = $2.00 per pallet (using 64 roll pallet pricing for the netting).


----------



## Relex (Dec 10, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> View attachment 530514
> This customer bought six cords of firewood and put to use eight of my old firewood racks. Nice sunny spot for them, and easily covered. Sold two more firewood racks today. Thirty of these to go yet. I've had a lot of calls to deliver the racks but I'm not going there. They are too big, too heavy, and too awkward for me to handle alone without the forklift. Glad I'm not stacking firewood any longer for my firewood sales. Simply too much time and work to be able to do enough volume that way. The loose splits are the last cord and a half delivery doing it the old way.



Do you have anymore pictures of these racks? Something like these would look great in my backyard.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 10, 2016)

Wish you were closer as I have twenty five or so to sell @ $50. ea. I do not have build pictures of the larger racks. They have a pallet style base because I move them. Once I came up with a design I made templets of 1/4" ply for each of the pieces to mark length and drill holes, which I did on a drill press. Tack the templet to the piece and drill. This allowed me to make pieces for forty racks, and things lined up pretty well. One important piece is the 3" x 3" x 1/4" angle iron. I bought 20' pieces of angle and cut and drilled them. These were the hardest to make because the holes need to be close to function. The angle iron bolts to the base and flush with the end. This allows the upright to run past the bottom horizontal, and that is what keeps the top of the upright from pushing out. The corner uprights are longer than the middle uprights so that I could get a pallet jack or forks in the sides. You most likely would not need the 2" x 4" spacer blocks. (my forks are 2" thick)
The measurements are inside dimensions 4' x 4' x 6' to top of side legs.


This is the bottom of an empty rack stacked on top of a full rack. I think the tip of the forks is in there also, as my son was screwing around doing the 'what if?' double stacking. Below is side view of base and top cross ties. There are six uprights per side, lagged down through the top, and held by the angle at the bottom. Ground contact is on two sides only. Then I could also use a pallet jack to move them on the concrete.



These are six foot from base to top of side/bottom of top plate. Overall height add base and top plate/cross tie. I made forty of them, or thirty cord. Weather protection: covered top with osb and tarp, two strips of lath. Good luck with whatever you build.
Base:
-bottom plate (2) 4'
-spacer blocks
-(4) 4' timbers with 2" x 4" plates
-(6) 4' timbers with angle
-(12) angle

sides:
-(12) 6" longer than height (2 x thickness of timbers (2 1/2") plus 2" x 4" thickness
-(2) top plates @4'

Cross ties:
4' + 7"

32 bolts?, 12 lags and a million holes to drill.
Materials: cross ties 2
top plate 1
sides 12
base 6........ 21 8' pieces of cheap landscape timber; 2 2x4's


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 10, 2016)

Relex: If you go with the cheap landscape timbers, be sure to use some ground contact treated material on the ground, which the landscape timbers are not. You have to read the fine print. When I bought them they were $0.97 each, and last summer they are as high as $3.97 I used 840 8' pieces on these racks and 500 more to build one hundred smaller 1/3 cord racks, along with 880 pieces of 3" angle, or 220'.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 10, 2016)

What is the reason to not work year round? I do wood all year. It doesn't generally get that cold here though, about -25* is the coldest.

If I'm not processing wood I'm out in the woods logging.

Lung issues suck. I almost died this spring from a lung infection. Right lung was collapsed and left about 50%. I can't hardly walk a few hundred ft some days without needing to stop to catch my breath.


----------



## Whitbread (Dec 10, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Stopped by the machine shop this morning to check on my SS mod project. No progress. Disappointing, as it has been well over a month.


If you want to come up to Gaylord, we can do anything you need while you wait. Happy to add to the frankenstein SS family!


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 11, 2016)

I'll be out doing wood most days this winter cutting and staging rounds. The lift has industrial tires. The snow gets hard packed and glazed. Those tires even with all wheel drive, the steer wheel in the rear get light and little control when lifting in front of the wheels. (It will pick 6,500 between the wheels measured mid forks, with the extended carriage, it gets light traveling with a load, which I do with logs. The option is to pick higher, above the wheels, and boom in. I doubt I would ever get the forks in a pallet on the Posch machine as I do not have a truck plow to keep it scraped clear. As the snow gets packed down the lift slides sideways off the high spots and into the ruts.

Good news on the lungs. For six to eight weeks my dry nagging cough was getting worse at the end of each day. Never bothered much during the day, but over time, slow down hill slide. Ignoring a similar situation two years ago put me in the hospital, so I went to the pulminologist. Lungs are fine. My acid reflux is irritating the adjacent airway. Solution: Take acid reflux meds (which I was not doing) and use inhaler twice a day. I was skeptical...but they were right. Huge improvement, and my lungs, although one is full of scar tissue from pneumonia, are fine.
I love doing wood in the winter. Just came back from walking in the Dunes State Park this morning, a beautiful wood stretch of sand dunes on Lake Michigan, with 4"-6" of fresh powder. S.W. Michigan is a beautiful place in all seasons.

Whitbread: Thanks for the offer. It would be worth the trip just to see your SS in person. You may have to beef up the axle on your SS, but hinging the rear leg may cover that. I'm learning to be patient with these guys, a father/son team (the fathers father died a several years ago so no longer there). Dad is retired now, so he only works seven days a week. (For real. I guess that meant he turned 65 is all.) These guys do a wide range of work, much of it boat building for a large marine construction/dredging out fit. Last time I stopped he said he will be changing out a six inch rudder shaft on a tug boat in Muskegon this winter, fifty miles away. They are machinists, millwrights, boat builders, magicians and wizards, and I've know them as neighbors for thirty five years. (Our daughter took piano lessons from his wife for years.) They will fit me in some Saturday/Sunday morning. It is part of doing business with friends, and not unexpected. All is good... 

On another note, I've been having issues with a 357XP. Had a guy work on it twice with the same issue. Not sorted out, so took it to a Husky shop someone recommended in Grand Haven, thirty miles away. Did I tell you guys this before? Maybe it was my buddy. Anyway the shop called. Original issue was it ran strong but had a gentle lope. It was very subtle, a sound more than anything, but a change none the less. These saws have had bulletins on a plastic clamp on the intake, and over time it can leak when warmed up. I thought perhaps it was beginning to suck air. Tricky issue apparently to diagnose. A good guy replaced the carb. But I couldn't keep it running when I got it back after a tank of fuel. He took a second look. Any way this shop called, and the brake/clutch something had failed, or melted something, so they are sorting that before going further. I thought that was great news, because it is truly a beautiful mid range saw to use. Being my first Husky it was beginning to sour my thoughts of Husky's in general, having this trouble after only seven years of use. I have a small 021, the 357 XP, and recently replaced an 066 (which I sat a 28" Oak butt on in March) with a MS661 when the Husky went down later last spring. I'm ready to get back to the mid-size Husky for day to day cutting rounds on the log cutting table. One thing that I'm not crazy about the Husky/Stihl line up I have is a 20" chain for example doesn't fit either/or saws. The bars are shaped different so different lengths, and in my case the gauge is different too, 50/58. Oh well... small bumps in the road really. 

So in short a double dose of patience lately with the 357XP and SS mod.


----------



## lknchoppers (Dec 12, 2016)

How many cords have you sold so far this year?


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 12, 2016)

Forty is all I processed last year and sold as seasoned this year. With the scaffolding made into a bin, I cut and split and stacked a half cord. If I did not stack, it held up the rest, and I got burnt out on stacking. Also put about 10-12 cord in our wood shed for ourselves last winter to keep a three year rotation going. In short, the amount I sell, which has been forty to sixty cords per year, has not paid for equipment. Lots of out-of-pocket to date.
The challenge is to produce more. Splitting is not the issue. Material handling and seasoning is, and cash flow.
This year I did fifty cord since late July with a goal of one hundred. I simply need to put in more hours at this point. I am now set up pretty good. I have the equipment and logs to get a good jump on spring. I ran the PackFix with two people on two occasions for about three hours each. One pallet needed cut open and redone, rewrapped, during our 'training' session with my son. His situation has changed a bit, shifting from a four day work week to five, newly married, and moved thirty miles away. I have yet to see what full capacity would be for a day with two people with the packFix, one wrapping/loading log deck, one continuing to cut/split. It is possible may be possible to keep three busy. It is still man hours per cord at the end of the day. My best day so far working alone, log form to pallet, was seven pallets. That is loading the log deck, cutting rounds, splitting, wrapping, and moving to season, repeat, about one half cord per log deck, or two pallets.
Edit: A friend told me his brother splits one hundred cord by hand each year that he harvests off his dads land. Used a chainsaw, and his dads small tractor and trailer. Hard for me to believe, as this photo is of one twenty cord load of 8' logs that I had delivered. I know my cord numbers because of the racks I have used/use, and this year to check the pallet loads the PackFix wraps, running stacked wood up the conveyor onto pallets, and stacking wrapped pallets into racks.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 12, 2016)

What about selling it not seasoned? I don't sell seasoned wood, no commercial outfit does here. I average about 500 cords a year, mostly by myself.


----------



## sirbuildalot (Dec 12, 2016)

100 cords a year by hand is possible. There are a lot of variables. Is this his main job or a side thing. If he cuts off of his fathers land, I'm assuming he picks and chooses trees that are most optimal to turn into firewood. If he could do a cord a day from felling of tree to firewood, that would only be 100 days out of 365. If he has a 40 hour a week job, then I agree it would be tough. Do-able, but tough.


----------



## jrider (Dec 13, 2016)

I give you lots of credit because its obvious you have been working off a well thought out plan and you have certainly put the hours in. Your set up is pretty slick but as you've mentioned, you still haven't made any money yet as you've been covering cost of all of your equipment. Hopefully if you stick it out it will pay off for you in the long run. For me, I like to keep it as simple as possible with the least amount of overhead possible to maximize my profits. Through the years, I'm sure it has created more work for me but I just can't justify spending any more money than what I have to which is why I like to throw my splits in long windrows. I do have the luxury of an open field though to allow wood to season like that. One year, I put a 12-15 cord pile of oak in a small opening in the woods where I thought it would get enough sun and airflow and I couldn't have been more wrong. Best wishes to you though and keep the updates coming.


----------



## lknchoppers (Dec 14, 2016)

As my business grew, I started making wind rows in my open woodlot like jrider does. Piles are 5 ft high and 50 ft long. I put sides on my trucks and on my dump trailer so each would hold a cord tossed in. I don't stack anymore unless it's at the customer's site and they pay. The firewood dries good here, the wood lot is on top of a hill in a cleared area, it gets sun and a breeze all day. The summers here are brutal so fresh cut oak gets to 25% MC and burns good. Unseasoned wood does not sell here or burn for my customers, they all are ready to burn it as soon as it leaves the truck.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 14, 2016)

jrider said:


> I give you lots of credit because its obvious you have been working off a well thought out plan and you have certainly put the hours in. Your set up is pretty slick but as you've mentioned, you still haven't made any money yet as you've been covering cost of all of your equipment. Hopefully if you stick it out it will pay off for you in the long run. For me, I like to keep it as simple as possible with the least amount of overhead possible to maximize my profits. Through the years, I'm sure it has created more work for me but I just can't justify spending any more money than what I have to which is why I like to throw my splits in long windrows. I do have the luxury of an open field though to allow wood to season like that. One year, I put a 12-15 cord pile of oak in a small opening in the woods where I thought it would get enough sun and airflow and I couldn't have been more wrong. Best wishes to you though and keep the updates coming.


 Speaking of Piles, I mentioned a while back I was doing a little testing between pileing and stacking. My thoughts where if I kept the piles turned using the FEL that they would dry as fast or faster than the wood in stacks. I am sad to report I was wrong. All the wood tested was cut, split and piled or stack at the same time and mostly whiteoak. Harvested 1 year ago this week, bucked and split during the early spring, Half stacked late May, rest I left in one big pile. I turned the piled wood about once a month June to Oct. I noticed the wood on top of the pile seemed to be drying very well, of course it was hot and we where in extreme drought most of fall. I also noticed the wood in the middle of the pile dried very little. I finally gave up and stacked the pile under a shed right before Thanksgiving. The stacked wood has dried very well, all the way down thru the stacks, altho I havent checked the bottom layers. Not really ready to burn but I have been throwing on a few of the top sticks on my wagon as I load my dry wood for the stove. Anyways, I have satisfied myself as to how well the wood dries in stacks as compared to being stacked on pallets with no cover. I dont really see a change in how I process my wood, I cut when I can, buck and split when I can and stack when I get around to it, but If I can stay a couple years ahead, I dont see a problem with leaving the wood in piles for a while, it just wont dry as fast as the stacked wood does.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 14, 2016)

Kept the forklift tubes for now. Presently I'm side tracked cleaning it up. Pulled the rack, etc. I like to tooth brush the corners and crevices, rack tube once a year and get some wax on it to keep rust at bay. Anybody know how to ballast tires if need be? I know it is hard on rims but tipping over isn't good either.

I'm going to love having a hitch on the proper end, and hand push it up to the conveyor. Still need a couple things, a 2" coupler, a hole drilled and tapped, some primer and paint, and of course, (off) road tested to see how it tracks behind the quad when turning. Didn't get that right on one project. The axle has a pivot for uneven ground when splitting, so it doesn't rock like a four legged chair or table sometimes can.

This could be a simple factory bolt-on option. Remove leg, move leg with wheels to wedge end, bolt-on steer axle. Grin... Hitch it up and split wood in humungous pile, drive it away having never unhitched it.. Grin some more......

Edit: I'll be using the SS with the conveyor. I'll unhitch it to push it in place, pull the clevis pin connecting the tongue so I don't trip over it. I wanted to chain the tongue in a vertical position but the fork tubes are in the way (and the rack too), leaving it angled and about chin height.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 14, 2016)

Very cool. I just welded a tube on the foot of the stand and welded on a 2" coupler till I get the gumption to do something with mine. 

Ballast can be a number of things. In your situation in would recommend windshield washer fluid. You can also have them foam filled. But the washer fluid is cheaper and you can do it. 

sent from a field


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 14, 2016)

I do not know if it will need ballast. If so only the wedge tires because the front axle pivots. I have a slight slope of the edge of the drive to the wood lot. Straight on it should not be an issue. A traverse across the slope when turning I'm sure it would lay over, and rather quickly. And then what? Perhaps it needs a roll cage and reese tubing stubs on the sides to put a cheater bar into to right it. It has not made it out of the garage yet, but I love it.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 14, 2016)

Not sure ballast is going to help. The axle is relatively short compared to the height. That coupled with the fact you'd only be able to get a gallon or two in each wheel and at right around 8 pounds per gallon.....

Maybe try lead....


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 14, 2016)

In a previous post I mentioned working one side of my body more than the other with the log deck on one side of the splitter. It shows up on the splitter actuating support as well. I have mounted an hour meter this fall, but the total hours and cords would be a guess. Ball park, 150 cord in three years between firewood sales and personal use. That actuating rod probably dances in the support whether or not it is engaged, and depending on what side I'm working from there is additional wear. The rod also floats in the handle with play between the top nut and handle when at rest. 

Is the nut just sacrificial and cut off and replaced when necessary, or should this be zerked and greased? The rod looks good.


----------



## jrider (Dec 14, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Speaking of Piles, I mentioned a while back I was doing a little testing between pileing and stacking. My thoughts where if I kept the piles turned using the FEL that they would dry as fast or faster than the wood in stacks. I am sad to report I was wrong. All the wood tested was cut, split and piled or stack at the same time and mostly whiteoak. Harvested 1 year ago this week, bucked and split during the early spring, Half stacked late May, rest I left in one big pile. I turned the piled wood about once a month June to Oct. I noticed the wood on top of the pile seemed to be drying very well, of course it was hot and we where in extreme drought most of fall. I also noticed the wood in the middle of the pile dried very little. I finally gave up and stacked the pile under a shed right before Thanksgiving. The stacked wood has dried very well, all the way down thru the stacks, altho I havent checked the bottom layers. Not really ready to burn but I have been throwing on a few of the top sticks on my wagon as I load my dry wood for the stove. Anyways, I have satisfied myself as to how well the wood dries in stacks as compared to being stacked on pallets with no cover. I dont really see a change in how I process my wood, I cut when I can, buck and split when I can and stack when I get around to it, but If I can stay a couple years ahead, I dont see a problem with leaving the wood in piles for a while, it just wont dry as fast as the stacked wood does.


What kind of sun and wind exposure did the wood get? Also, how big was the pile?


----------



## cantoo (Dec 14, 2016)

Is there any way you can make some kind of hook low on the front end and just hang weight lifting weights or heavy steel bars on it? Better than loading the tires I think.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 14, 2016)

Truthfuly, the idea of this came from someone on AS that bought an SS and mounted the wheels under the table and posted a picture of his new machine. I'm pretty sure it was a mistake on his part because the heaviest end, with the engine and flywheels, would need to be lifted to move it. But it got me thinking...What if... Whoever you are, thank you very much. (At least until I tip it over.)


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 16, 2016)

I would have liked to just put a Kory 3000 running gear under the SS but that would have cost a great deal, around $1,100, and been way over kill. So I copied them, even used some of their parts. That too added a bit to the cost but I like that it looks pretty clean. The guys left the center steering spindle long and I pinned it with a bolt. That meant leaving a bit of play to tighten the nut on the keeper bolt. Didn't like it. Today I drilled and tapped the 1 1/4 stock. It doesn't show here, but in the second photo the steering plate sits on a piece of 2" square stock about three inches long, to flush up with the angle iron axle. The square stock was drilled 1 1/4" dia. through hole (both sides) and the round stock was placed in it and welded which keeps it straight/square when welded in position. I thought that was slick. It was repurposed material and stainless steel stock, which made it a bit harder to work. Now I need a piece of round stock like the Kory design, a type of big fender washer to cap it. Kory used larger round stock with a shoulder for the steering plate. I


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 16, 2016)

Kory 3000 is what?


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 16, 2016)

Kory 3000 is the model number of a compact size farm wagon, or nursery wagon, with a 3,000 pound rating. It is made by Kory Farms or Premier Fabrication in Illinois.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 17, 2016)

Oh.

How about using a 1000lb rated cart? Lowe's has them for around $150. I use one for my welder and plasma cutter. I got tired of the welder cart with like 4" wheels. Was a real butch to drag it around outside.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 17, 2016)

I use two sizes of two wheel hand trucks, and at times a pallet jack as well. Using the proper tool always makes it easier. Used a small hand truck to do this busted concrete fire pit, filling the inside as I brought it up, to wheel the pieces in and scoot them in place. The circular wall is about six foot on the back side where there are egress windows below, the rest is terraced more gradual. It was covered in ivy, as was the retaining wall in the background.




Edit: The big piece to the left I could not move, so I broke it in half to place it. About wore that poor two wheel cart out. This was a sand slope covered in weeds and someone gave my daughter a trampoline. I was looking out the window at it, and thought that is just the right size for a fire pit, 18' or something like that. We had replaced the concrete apron in front of the garage and had the old material piled up. Took a good part of a summer. I thought it came out nice for not really having a plan.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 17, 2016)

Pulled the SS out for a spin with it's new skins and it works really great. I love it. Tried backing into garage. Not going to happen. It is simply way to short of wheel base. So I pushed it in and used the tongue to steer. 

The rub is: there is really only one thing to push on, and that is the engines muffler or the carburetor. I think it needs a push bar of some sort, especially in the wood lot where it is uneven terrain, bark, chips, what have you. Just something simple. Maybe flat stock off the engine mount and a vertical tube with a T-handle. The idea being bolt-on mods, as is the entire steer axle, so that the SS can be returned to its original self if need be. Emailed Paul with pictures suggesting the steer axle as a bolt-on option. Replied if he did that it would require brakes. Interesting.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 17, 2016)

jrider said:


> What kind of sun and wind exposure did the wood get? Also, how big was the pile?


My splitting area in on top of a hill in full sun. It gets plenty of wind. I started with around 5 cord, stacked about half and left the rest in one big pile, so roughly about 2 1/2 cords. Wood was about 80-90% whiteoak, with a little popular mixed in. We where also in a severe drought all fall until just recently. I replanted my lawn the first week of Sept and it didnt see a 1/4in of rain until about 2 weeks ago. let me look and see if I took a pic of the wood before I stacked the pile in the shed. First pic is what I left in a pile, the second pic is before stacking about half of it.


----------



## cantoo (Dec 18, 2016)

muddstopper, I also piled my 16" splits just off the conveyor. It's on a bit of a hill and gets full sun. I pushed my piles up with my loader tractor and all that seemed to do was get grass and mud mixed in with the splits. It's ash so it doesn't take much to dry it anyway. I used to drop it off the conveyor onto skids but that area was too close to my barn and too sheltered so I did away with the skids and just dropped it on the grass. We have pretty gravelly soil here so water is not an issue. The wood was only split for a couple of months and appears quite dry.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 18, 2016)

Its hard not to get grass and dirt in the pile when you use a fel to push the wood. The soil under my piles is waste dirt hauled in when they where building the highway you can see in the pic. Its about 90ft deep and just groundup slate rock. It doesnt drain very well. I used to have a rock bucket I had made back when I was doing hydroseeding and lawn prep work. I think that bucket would have worked well for pileing as I could have scooped the wood and gave it a little shake and sifted out any trash before dumping in a pile. I dont have much experience with ash, we just dont have a lot of it around here. Whiteoak is a very wet wood and heavy as heck. Even once split and stacked, it can take a couple of summers to get it really dry. I am mixing some of it with my dry wood as I burn now. The wood that I stacked as soon as it was split is drying pretty good on the top layers, I havent worked down to the bottom of the stacks yet to see how dry that wood actually is, but its graying well and making big cracks. Everything is stacked on pallets so its getting some air flow under it and not touching the ground.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 18, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Oh.
> 
> How about using a 1000lb rated cart? Lowe's has them for around $150. I use one for my welder and plasma cutter. I got tired of the welder cart with like 4" wheels. Was a real butch to drag it around outside.



Ive toyed with this.... The problem with those carts is the axle assemblies, especially the steering axle, are not very robust. The tires are small and they are relatively narrow. The SS itself is already top heavy and narrow.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 18, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> How about using a 1000lb rated cart? Lowe's has them for around $150. I use one for my welder and plasma cutter. I got tired of the welder cart with like 4" wheels. Was a real butch to drag it around outside.


I completely miss understood, and was thinking you meant the two wheeled hand trucks. 
I looked at lots of different nursery carts and such. Northern Tool has a Farm Tuff wagon running gear for $285. that I almost tried, with a 2,200 pound capacity. It is pretty much what I ended up with, no wheel bearings and all. Pretty light duty but sufficient.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 18, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Its hard not to get grass and dirt in the pile when you use a fel to push the wood. The soil under my piles is waste dirt hauled in when they where building the highway you can see in the pic. Its about 90ft deep and just groundup slate rock. It doesnt drain very well. I used to have a rock bucket I had made back when I was doing hydroseeding and lawn prep work. I think that bucket would have worked well for pileing as I could have scooped the wood and gave it a little shake and sifted out any trash before dumping in a pile. I dont have much experience with ash, we just dont have a lot of it around here. Whiteoak is a very wet wood and heavy as heck. Even once split and stacked, it can take a couple of summers to get it really dry. I am mixing some of it with my dry wood as I burn now. The wood that I stacked as soon as it was split is drying pretty good on the top layers, I havent worked down to the bottom of the stacks yet to see how dry that wood actually is, but its graying well and making big cracks. Everything is stacked on pallets so its getting some air flow under it and not touching the ground.



Another blogger asked me about which grapple to get for his skid steer. I did not have a clue, as I've never used one. He said the one he had wasn't working well, as he too was getting dirt mixed in when loading out firewood for a customer. So to me that is two problems to solve: seasoning and loading.

I loaded out 1 1/4 cord of green wood two weeks ago using the conveyor into a customers one ton flatbed dump with sides. I wish I had timed it. Guessing I say 30-45 minutes to cut open the five pallets netting and hand load the conveyor. I did find the Oak is beginning to season that was dated Oct. 2 of this year, now that I've cleared a spot and it is getting sun and wind. Not fast loading, but no dirt and seasoning issues. No turning piles either.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 18, 2016)

Aside from adding a push bar for reverse, the SS mod is done and it is officially being used as a coat rack in the garage after snow blowing. Some pictures of the wood lot. And the VC.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 18, 2016)

Spoiled rotten... Feeding the VC. This is about four days worth for two stoves.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 19, 2016)

I cant see how you snowbirds can sell any wood with all that snow. What do you do when your wood is covered in a foot of snow and a customer calls wanting a load of wood.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 19, 2016)

I sold out of seasoned before Labor Day. Every call this year I pushed for them buy a year a head. Early summer calls were mostly to call and save them X-number of cords, which I told them I no longer do. First come first serve. Otherwise I would be out there right now fighting conditions from start to finish getting in their narrowly plowed driveways, and getting stuck on a flat spot when unloaded, to deliver their one-third cord. I'm closed up now... even if they want ten cord of green. I fought it several winters. Not doing that again. What is the saying? "Your lack of planning is not my crisis." And absolutely no more huge tarps as shown here.



Edit:


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 19, 2016)

Next project is to get conveyor sorted out.
The first photo shows the issue, which is a tube in tube hinge with no zerks to grease it. Nine years after the build, it is no longer functioning as a hinge, and needed a come-a-long to barely budge it. Emailed Built-Rite last summer and they were unaware of any other similar issues with their conveyors. I would be interested to know if they now add zerks. I priced their add-on hydraulic lift package at $450. Presently there is a hand crank with limited travel. To increase travel the elevator needs to be supported and a pin pulled and adjusted in the slip tube. That is a easily done with the lift supporting the conveyor if (if?) in an open space, and... the hinge works properly. So, I may do the hydraulic lift package. A couple weeks ago I loaded out a one ton dump. To do so I had to pick the conveyor top end and put blocks under the wheels for clearance. I have been using it in a lowered position to fill the PackFix drums.
First order is to drill/tap and add some zerk fitting. Actually second. First is to borrow a generator to do so.
Edit: I called Built-Rite to get a current cost for the upgrade. Waiting on an email...
Edit #2: They have not added zerks to their conveyor builds for this particular problem. Of course mine is the only one with this issue.


----------



## cantoo (Dec 19, 2016)

Sandhill, I'm a fix it myself kind of guy. I would cut out that tube on the wheel support side and install one that is 1/8" smaller in diameter. And the grease zerks too. That's the trouble with tight fits like that, sooner or later you don't move it enough and it seizes. I hate tight hitch receivers too.

Muddstopper, I sell some wood after the snow falls. I handload by conveyor so little snow goes in the load. Then I leave the trailer in my heated shop overnight. I don't charge any extra for this but it doesn't happen very often either. I also keep 3 or 4 cords of 216" splits in the barn for dumb azzes that I feel sorry for. We get several good days here and the snow melts off abit.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 19, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I cant see how you snowbirds can sell any wood with all that snow. What do you do when your wood is covered in a foot of snow and a customer calls wanting a load of wood.



Charge double. Price of procrastination.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 19, 2016)

I can pretty much guarantee if it snowed like that here I wouldnt be out in it. Now if some widow woman was out of heat, I would make an exception, but thats about it.


----------



## sirbuildalot (Dec 19, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I can pretty much guarantee if it snowed like that here I wouldnt be out in it. Now if some widow woman was out of heat, I would make an exception, but thats about it.


 What a guy! Giving the widows some hard wood. Lol


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 20, 2016)

Last year I sold six cord of three year aged Oak out of the our wood shed. 
In my opinion, that just taught the procrastinators they were special. 

It was also extra work for me stacking into racks, and one guy never picked up the second half of what he said he wanted, being as mild a winter as it was. Someone else bought it a month later, covered in snow. One has to expect a bit of bull **** from time to time, but the more you put up with the more your going to get. 

We used to have a saying at work, "You make your own conditions." An example: (as carpenters) it meant if you don't keep your work area picked up as you go thru the day or week, your soon stumbling over stuff, especially in the winter. Habits will eventually reward you, whether they are good habits or bad habits, is up to you. 

I'm still getting calls/emails almost daily. One woman this week called at 3:45 pm and said she needed wood now, she had six kids... When I said check Craig's List she said I'm putting my husband on. Okay... I think she may need one of those too. 

I've never been much of a people person. So I let my wood sell itself by word of mouth, and use a web site. I have met some really great people, and a few different ones too. If I can fill their needs and my needs, fine. If I'm filling their needs at my expense, what's the point?


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 20, 2016)

I think you and I would get along famously. 

I have a similar saying.... you teach people how to treat you. 

sent from a field


----------



## lknchoppers (Dec 20, 2016)

I do my piles like this below and have nice dry firewood to sell, I hand load into my front end loader then dump into the trucks. Pushing firewood around without a concrete pad or those heavy rubber mats results in dirt getting into the wood and just isn't worth it. I'm in a very hot area much hotter than the mountains, it really beats stacking when you have to move large quantities of firewood every year. This works for me.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 20, 2016)

No email reply as yet from Built-Rite with cost estimate. I called about 3:00 pm yesterday. I guess we will see what tomorrow brings.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 20, 2016)

CaseyForrest said:


> I think you and I would get along famously.



Don't know about you, but I'm thinking of offering to split Jeffbrib's wood in Sydney, Australia in trade for a place to stay for a week or two. (What the heck is Gum anyway?)


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 20, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Don't know about you, but I'm thinking of offering to split Jeffbrib's wood in Sydney, Australia in trade for a place to stay for a week or two.


I'm NOT sharing a bed. 

sent from a field


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 20, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I cant see how you snowbirds can sell any wood with all that snow. What do you do when your wood is covered in a foot of snow and a customer calls wanting a load of wood.



Most of the snow shakes off the logs by the time they are moved around and processed.

Most folks clean their driveways, and worst case I put tire chains on.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 21, 2016)

Conveyor update:
Nothing to update. No word from Built-Rite since talking to them Monday afternoon to get a price on parts. 

Not sure exactly what I need to change out the crank lift for a hydraulic lift. Obviously a valve and cylinder, but what valve I'm not sure. I don't know if the present detent valve for the top drive drum has power beyond or not, or if the cylinder will bleed down without a check valve or something similar. I need to pull the crank jack and slip tubing to figure a proper cylinder size. I suspect the longer the rod stroke the larger the rod diameter should be. Not sure how much side force it would carry.

Anyone have a 28' Built-Rite with hydraulic lift?


----------



## DSW (Dec 22, 2016)

> Edit: A friend told me his brother splits one hundred cord by hand each year that he harvests off his dads land. Used a chainsaw, and his dads small tractor and trailer.



I processed 40-45 cord this year, all split by hand. I didn't work the entire year so it was almost exactly 1 cord per week.

I think 100 is possible but very uncommon. 

I have the advantage of cutting on my own land, enough saws to never be down, fit enough to swing an axe for hours.

Things that really add up: wet weather not letting you bring out wood, 95° and high humidity means you won't spend 10 hours swinging an axe, real job work schedule, family obligations, saws that never run right, commuting to the wood lot, trees getting hung up, chains hitting the dirt, etc...

I think a guy could produce 50-150 cords but the situation would have to really be ideal and it would come at a cost.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 22, 2016)

I could have/should have put in more time and effort. I started this thread Sept.25. with 22 cord done, ending with 50 cord Dec. 8th when I dropped the mast of the PackFix, the machine to palletize wood. 
From the log pile to finish I have *about four man hours per cord*, maybe a bit more considering clean up and weather protection. More still if you consider acquiring pallets, delivery time, and equipment maintenance.


----------



## KiwiBro (Dec 22, 2016)

Loving the real-world, no BS 4 hrs per cord figure, thanks. This is where too many people get way too hung up on splitter stroke times, tonnage, etc. I mean, who gives a rat's if a home-built hydraulic takes 30 seconds per stroke, if you don't have any resplits, or you haven't got anything to deal with the logs or lifting rounds onto the splitter or it takes forever to load the truck for deliveries, etc, etc. The whole system is key and only ever as good as the weakest link.

This is where I am keen to see if you end up with a processor, and how much time in the real world, it takes out of the log to cord of firewood figure. I keep coming back to the Japa435 if you are buying-in logs and have some sort of control over the size of them, because your splits seem small (by what I have seen in USA anyway) and clean.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 22, 2016)

It takes time to load the log deck. Time to cut and stage a half cord. What that is real world is rolling a log to the front of the deck. Then it to has to be pulled pushed to the end stop with a peavy, to index it with the cut markings on the table. Once cut, the six pieces are staged on the trailer/bench, which holds one half cord. Splitting takes fifteen to twenty minutes per 1/4 cord, which is what the PackFix holds. The next part takes up to ten minutes, and that is leveling the top of the PackFix drum. Wrapping takes ten minutes. The process is once leveled, the drum turntable rotates the drum under the mast tripod. It is connected to the top of the full drum and the netting is tied off to the pallet. Two and a half wraps, stop and staple the netting to the pallet. Continue wrapping and lifting the drum. Cut netting and tie off end. PackFix engine is still running. Start forklift and remove pallet from turntable. Get off lift, load new pallet, lower drum, turn off engine. Get on lift and stage full pallet. Load log deck on the way back (every two pallets). Stage lift at PackFix turn table. Split another quarter cord. Repeat leveling PackFix... Cut logs on deck and stage another half cord of rounds.
The PackFix is not fast with a one man crew. But...I do not have to stack!!! The wood is easily moved with equipment. It seems to be seasoning great. No mold...that I can tell. However only have of the fifty cords is covered.
I will still be unloading by hand next summer.
A processor would speed things up and is on my mind, as is a larger truck to carry the forklift for deliveries. In the back of my mind is selling the TW-6 to do one or the other. No sure which would be the first choice, which would save the most work. Deliveries have always taken me too long. Processor log decks are too small. ????


----------



## Motorsen (Dec 22, 2016)

Making firewood is quite labour intesive no matter how effective you are and how many smart ways you invent to work. It's all about gettin your head down and into it. If you and me and alot of other guys here were real smart we would do something else to save or in your case make money. Imagine specializing in just anything else with the same eagerness and drive. We would be well off sitting in a lounge smoking cigars. Now we knock about in freezing weather processing firewood and try to please jerks. Why?? We love it. We love the satisfaction after work done. The beer after job done. The saws, the woods, the old tractor and the man factor. Right or ...?
Just my little emotional rant. May not apply to anyone else.
Sometimes I just get these thoughts after working 8 hours flat out just to realize that I've not really accomplished anything else than making the radiator on the tractor leak. Arrgh. And yet the next day I look forward to go at it again. I might have issues!

Motorsen


----------



## KiwiBro (Dec 23, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Processor log decks are too small. ????


Use a separate live deck?


----------



## lknchoppers (Dec 23, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> It takes time to load the log deck. Time to cut and stage a half cord. What that is real world is rolling a log to the front of the deck. Then it to has to be pulled pushed to the end stop with a peavy, to index it with the cut markings on the table. Once cut, the six pieces are staged on the trailer/bench, which holds one half cord. Splitting takes fifteen to twenty minutes per 1/4 cord, which is what the PackFix holds. The next part takes up to ten minutes, and that is leveling the top of the PackFix drum. Wrapping takes ten minutes. The process is once leveled, the drum turntable rotates the drum under the mast tripod. It is connected to the top of the full drum and the netting is tied off to the pallet. Two and a half wraps, stop and staple the netting to the pallet. Continue wrapping and lifting the drum. Cut netting and tie off end. PackFix engine is still running. Start forklift and remove pallet from turntable. Get off lift, load new pallet, lower drum, turn off engine. Get on lift and stage full pallet. Load log deck on the way back (every two pallets). Stage lift at PackFix turn table. Split another quarter cord. Repeat leveling PackFix... Cut logs on deck and stage another half cord of rounds.
> The PackFix is not fast with a one man crew. But...I do not have to stack!!! The wood is easily moved with equipment. It seems to be seasoning great. No mold...that I can tell. However only have of the fifty cords is covered.
> I will still be unloading by hand next summer.
> A processor would speed things up and is on my mind, as is a larger truck to carry the forklift for deliveries. In the back of my mind is selling the TW-6 to do one or the other. No sure which would be the first choice, which would save the most work. Deliveries have always taken me too long. Processor log decks are too small. ????




My question is, how much money do you have into a half cord of wood and how much can you get for it?


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm not making money doing fifty cord.
A lot of people don't talk money, keeping it tight to the chest, big secrete and all. The break down is like this.
$2,100. for 20 cord truck load.
Cut/split/stacked is 15 to 16 cord. I stacked about ten truckloads before getting the PackFix, so I'm solid on this number.
Math: $2,100/15 = $140./cord /16 = $131.25
Sell for $225. plus delivery
(1) cord four man hours; $85.00 total per cord
Then there is cost of equipment.

I bought tree service wood cheaper but had much more work in it, and a lot more junk wood to deal with. That was the motivation to get the TW-6 w/log lift. Did not pan out well and a lot tied up in the splitter. Not every choice works out, but you keep going. I'm retired. I'm not making a living at this.

Edit: I would love to have a metal shop like some of these guys...


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> Loving the real-world, no BS 4 hrs per cord figure, thanks. This is where too many people get way too hung up on splitter stroke times, tonnage, etc. I mean, who gives a rat's if a home-built hydraulic takes 30 seconds per stroke, if you don't have any resplits, or you haven't got anything to deal with the logs or lifting rounds onto the splitter or it takes forever to load the truck for deliveries, etc, etc. The whole system is key and only ever as good as the weakest link.
> 
> This is where I am keen to see if you end up with a processor, and how much time in the real world, it takes out of the log to cord of firewood figure. I keep coming back to the Japa435 if you are buying-in logs and have some sort of control over the size of them, because your splits seem small (by what I have seen in USA anyway) and clean.



The Jappa's are too small for processing most wood.

You guys talked that the Blockbuster was too small, the 15-20 doing 18", the 18-20 doing 22" wood,.. the Japa is nearly 1/2 the capacity.


----------



## KiwiBro (Dec 23, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> The Jappa's are too small for processing most wood.
> 
> You guys talked that the Blockbuster was too small, the 15-20 doing 18", the 18-20 doing 22" wood,.. the Japa is nearly 1/2 the capacity.


I agree. I'd like one that can handle about 33"


----------



## cantoo (Dec 23, 2016)

Valleywood, Sandhill posted some pictures of his wood loads. Looks like 75% or more would fit in a Japa with a bar cutter. The one I bought used has a 22 or 24" blade so it would cut close to a 12" log. I pile my logs by size while I unload them because it saves me time later when I'm splitting them.
Sandhill, I've spent lots of time reading your threads and you have the same issue I used to have, too much handling. I've tried to stream line my process as much as I can and I still have lots I can do yet. Cost isn't quite as much of a problem as finding the time is. I have most of the stuff I need, I just can't find (or don't want to) the time to do it. My plan is to load the rounds with my tractor loader onto a wagon frame that has the conveyor rollers on it to roll the rounds onto the splitter table. This saves me lifting the rounds by hand (up to 26" ash) or using a slow log lift. I already just let the splits fall off the conveyor and don't stack anything I sell. I hand load it onto the conveyor that drops it into my dump trailer. We dump and never stack at customers place. I'm considering putting up a fabric style building to drop my 16" splits into but not sure it is worth the money invested but then I would be able to sell wood all winter long when not many other sellers have dry wood. Around $5000 for a 30Wx40Lx15' high with me doing the work. Building would have removable sides so no extra handling but still have decent drying ability.
I have my OWB wood about as efficient as I need it to be. 32" long rounds, split with my 4 way splitter and stacked in 4x4' crates that I move with my tractor.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 23, 2016)

I guess one reason I dont get into the firewood business is because I doubt anybody hates handleing wood more than me. The market is certainly here for a wood business. People pay all kinds of prices for little pickup loads of green fresh cut and split wood. Those selling firewood dont believe in tieing up their money long enough for the wood to dry. Someone selling quality prepared firewood around here could get rich, as Long as they can produce a quality product and deliver the wood when its needed. It would take the proper equipment and a major investment up front.

With that said, I have looked at every kind, brand, type of wood processing equipment there is on the internet. I have yet to see anything I think I would like to use for a firewood business. The closest thing I think would fit my wants would be a full blown processor, and I dont like any of the normally seen processors. It seems all of them take to much support equipment to keep them working. What is normally sold, usually are very limited to the size of wood they can process. I like the Packfix that Sandhill uses to catch his splits. I would want a very large shed to stack the packfix packaged wood under. I would want a truck with a knuckle boom loader with pallet forks instead of a grapple, to load and unload those pallets for delivery. I would want the bed of that truck to be a dump. If I was putting up a wood lot, I would probably want a set of scales, buy my firewood by weight and sell it that way, no overages or underages that way. Those log trucks loads that aint what they are supposed to be will be told on when they cross the scales and you pay for what you get, not what they say they have. No shortage on the selling side either, sell it by the lb and show them a weight ticket. Mixed wood produces the same btu's per lb as a lb of premium hardwoods. Your selling heat and btu's, wood is just the means to get there. At anyrate, my goal would be to reduce the amount of manual labor as much as possible, and increase production with the least number of personal and you can increase profit with a smaller amount of product.


----------



## KiwiBro (Dec 23, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I doubt anybody hates handleing wood more than me.


That right there sounds like a challenge. I could give it a good nudge.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 23, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> That right there sounds like a challenge. I could give it a good nudge.


good thing I dont have to depend on you to keep my stove fed, we would both freeze to death.lol


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 23, 2016)

I appreciate all the comments. I like the splitting mode of the Jappa 435. It is like a box wedge with auto return, and no resplitting necessary. It is limited in dia. of logs however.
Seasoning wood is costly, in time, in space, in added fuel and equipment maintenance. 
To cover it, as in weather protection, is more added time and expense. Covering it with a building is not cost effect. It would mean double stacking and double stacking means added time to level the bottom pallets. A lot of time actually to get it right. Too much time even without a building. I'm no longer going to do it as long as I have room not to. But I know I can if need be in the future.

Seasoned wood. Everyone expects it. No one selling actually does it. Half the customers don't care. The ones that do care price compare you against sellers that cut/split/deliver. 

Current problems to work on:
Producing more.
Improving delivery.
Money flow for logs and improvements.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 24, 2016)

muddstopper: I love to think outside the box also, but I need to keep one foot in it. Buying and selling by weight. I hear some large pulp mills do that, and many truckers have scales on their trucks to maximize loads and reduce fines. I could set up and weigh the pallets. It can be done with a forklift mounted scale or a separate scale. It would add a measure of consistency per pallet I guess, but pricing would be by the cord. I built the firewood racks in 3/4 cord size. The reason being my forklift can not handle a full cord at full extension and I could not stack that high, being limited to a 4' x 4' footprint with that amount of weight. I also maximized the build materials, where 1/2 cord racks would have created a lot of wasted material. The odd size caused a bit of confusion, and repeat explanations with customers. Did not matter that they could see the full measure of wood stacked. It wasn't what they expected. It wasn't what they were use to. People wanted a cord of wood. The flip side is I can tell my supplier I'll pay by weight, but he may not sell it that way. Then there is differences in moisture content that can be all over the place. More confusion.
The knuckle boom loader may not be what you think. It means a big truck, parked close to where it needs unloaded. Not what you want on peoples paved driveways. Then there is overhead clearance, trees and wires, being the biggies. Used drywall trucks are available, you can look them up under 'vocational trucks'. 
I think the piggy back lift is a good option for me and the customer. Perhaps carry a pallet jack to place pallets in a garage if needed. It still posses property damage issues to sprinkler systems, septic tanks, wires, pavement, etc.
No perfect world. 
-A small processor is a consideration. One cord per hour even, is a huge improvement over one quarter cord per hour. Pretty big bang for the buck. However, I don't have the money for it, and logs too. ($140./cord X 100 = output) ($85./cord = input) I also think production would be half of that due to resplitting, or 1/2 cord per hour. (I'm doing 1/4 cord/hr now)
-The PackFix is not fast with a one man crew, but it does save me literally tones of work per cord. Which is also a big bang for the buck. I'm also making payments on it, which is what it is. 
-Hand work...
Fork logs onto deck with lift.
Move logs by hand, and peavy, prior to cutting.
Move rounds by hand to staging table. (I could skip the stagging table but then the splitter and conveyor would be running while cutting a log into rounds.)
Move rounds by hand to splitter.
Handle rounds at splitter, resplitting (SSHD)
Level splits on top of PackFix drum by hand before wrapping.

To increase profit maybe I should think about bundles and do what I'm doing now for seasoning before bundling.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 24, 2016)

4 hrs for a cord of wood? Ouch.

For sure it'd speed up with a processor and reduce the labor by a huge amount. The hardest work I do is stack the wood in the trucks, and normally the hired hand does it.

Best I've done is 6 cords in a day with 1 guy stacking, 1 guy loading logs/stacking and me running the processor.

Typically I deliver 5-10 cords a week, though the last few weeks havent been as productive. The hard working Hired hand got hurt so he's been out. The other one we have, we keep him just hauling in firewood for the shop stove and shoveling sawdust, he's about worthless (he's working off a debt, so can't even fire him)

It's been -10* several days and I've been spending most days running skidder out on a job we are doing. Property owner wants to fence the ~120 acres starting next week so we are putting in a 30ft wide path around the perimeter. Will log the rest at a bit slower pace, I have about 250 cords of logs stockpiled at the shop still.

Hopefully more output too once I put 2 more f450 dump trucks in service, some of the holdup is having the truck loaded and waiting for a customer to be home.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 24, 2016)

Sandhill, I might be thinking out of the box, and my box might have a big hole in it. Since I dont even try to sell any wood, I am sure there are some logistics I am not considering. Buying logs by weight is not so far out of the box, at least not here. If you cut timber here, you sell it by weight, thats how all the yards buy it. So it wouldnt be that big a jump to expect a timber hauler to sell me wood by weight and throwing a few extra pennies on the ton would insure a steady supply. Paying for a large quantity of wood up front would pose a problem for just about anybody. Selling firewood by weight might be a hard barrier to crack since folks are used to the rick, facecord, cord methods of buying wood. Some folks would never see the value of paying for weight rather than scaled amount of wood. Those that do would beat your doors down. Over time others would come on board.

The mention of using a big truck and knuckle boom isnt the problem you think it is. For one thing, the knuckle boom only needs to be big enough to handle one pallet of splits, and it doesnt have to have 20ft of reach. All it needs to reach is long enough to get the back pallets on the rear of the truck and set those pallets beside the truck. Any of the foldup booms that sit behind the cab of a truck would probably work and they dont pose a height problem when working under power lines. Mount one behind the cab of a 1 ton truck that can haul 4-6 pallets at a time and deliver your wood. Pallets can be weighed as they are loaded by carrying them across the scales with a forklift. Just staple a weight ticket to each individual pallet. For someone wanting a truck load of wood, just weigh the truck after its loaded. For someone driving on the yard wanting their own wood, just weigh their truck before and after its loaded and use a fel to load. 

Once wood is on the yard it does bring up some expensive problems. You have to have a loader to unload the trucks, since most loggers around here use big trailers and haul tree lengths, and you have to handle those tree lengths for processing. For a stationary processor, you can build conveyors to handle long trees, or you can buck the trees with a chainsaw to sizes your processor could handle, or you could set up a buck saw. Then you still have the problem of what to do with the splits. Could just let them pile up and worry about packaging when your not processing. Probably need a fel to load on a conveyor to feed the packfix. I would consider some sort of automation for the packfix so your not constantly having to get on and off the loader. And nothing wrong with stacking the pallets out in the weather to season, but I would still want a large shed to store dry wood under. Everything I have mentioned would cost a considerable amount of upfront investment, and I'm sure I hav'nt thought of everything. Not something I would be willing to do, but how I would want to do it if firewood was my business. Any amount of hand work would need to be minimized. You can pull levers and push buttons all day long, but picking up and carrying splits by hand will get old in a hurry. 

I know a old guy, in his 70's, that processes wood year round. He uses a circle saw cord king. He does buy all his wood by weight. he uses a large knuckle boom to unload the trucks and load his processor. He runs the wood thru the processor and he has two smaller splitters at the end of his processor wedge, one each side of conveyor. two people pick the large splits off the conveyor and resplit them with the small splitters and throw the splits back on the conveyor. He uses large metal baskets to catch the splits as they fall off the conveyor. Those baskets he hauls down to a kiln, where they are dried. He then has bundle machines he bundles all the wood and packs in those large cardboard pallet boxes. He loads those boxes of packaged wood on tractor trailers and ships them all over the country. He also does local sells, specializing in 4ft fireplace wood. He has a special built processor that will do 4 way splits on 4 ft rounds. (builtrite I think) He does sort his truck loads to get the right size wood for the 4ft processor. He will also let you back your truck, or use his 1 ton dump, up under the conveyor and buy wood that way. All wood comes in and out over those scales. I am not sure how many people he employ's, I have only seen him, his resplitter operators, and a equipment operator, so I am guessing 4 or 5 people on the payroll. I have never asked him how much wood he sells but it would have to be 1000 cords or more a year. He has offered to sell me his business, but we have never talked about how much. Its 100 miles from where I live and I aint interested in driving that far everyday, or running a firewood business.


----------



## Dogsout (Dec 24, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Seasoned wood. Everyone expects it. *No one selling actually does it*. Half the customers don't care. The ones that do care price compare you against sellers that cut/split/deliver.



I think you would get some disagreement from some of the board members here on the above bold statement.


----------



## Tenderfoot (Dec 24, 2016)

Dogsout said:


> I think you would get some disagreement from some of the board members here on the above bold statement.


Folks where I am expect it, but when they get it they are shocked. Its not abnormal for folks around here to say 'no seasoned wood after X date' unless they are selling $300 face cords.


muddstopper said:


> Sandhill, I might be thinking out of the box, and my box might have a big hole in it. Since I dont even try to sell any wood, I am sure there are some logistics I am not considering. Buying logs by weight is not so far out of the box, at least not here. If you cut timber here, you sell it by weight, thats how all the yards buy it. So it wouldnt be that big a jump to expect a timber hauler to sell me wood by weight and throwing a few extra pennies on the ton would insure a steady supply. Paying for a large quantity of wood up front would pose a problem for just about anybody. Selling firewood by weight might be a hard barrier to crack since folks are used to the rick, facecord, cord methods of buying wood. Some folks would never see the value of paying for weight rather than scaled amount of wood. Those that do would beat your doors down. Over time others would come on board.
> 
> The mention of using a big truck and knuckle boom isnt the problem you think it is. For one thing, the knuckle boom only needs to be big enough to handle one pallet of splits, and it doesnt have to have 20ft of reach. All it needs to reach is long enough to get the back pallets on the rear of the truck and set those pallets beside the truck. Any of the foldup booms that sit behind the cab of a truck would probably work and they dont pose a height problem when working under power lines. Mount one behind the cab of a 1 ton truck that can haul 4-6 pallets at a time and deliver your wood. Pallets can be weighed as they are loaded by carrying them across the scales with a forklift. Just staple a weight ticket to each individual pallet. For someone wanting a truck load of wood, just weigh the truck after its loaded. For someone driving on the yard wanting their own wood, just weigh their truck before and after its loaded and use a fel to load.
> 
> ...


Do you have any more information on that fellow? He sounds like he knows his wood and may be worth emulating if he has been at it for so long with a degree of success.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 24, 2016)

I don't know of any outfit that sells truly season wood in large amounts. I move about 500 cords a year, that's with 1 part time worker.


----------



## CaseyForrest (Dec 24, 2016)

Dogsout said:


> I think you would get some disagreement from some of the board members here on the above bold statement.


Not here in MI. 

sent from a field


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 24, 2016)

I sold wood this summer to a guy who checked the end of a few splits with a moisture meter. 13% reading. 
I told him I was surprise to hear such a low reading going by feel/weight. 
I delivered a cord and a half. 
He had a small electric splitter so we split a piece and retested.
13% @end; 18% 3" in.; 21% @ 6" in; 28% in the middle @ 8" in. 
Cut/split/stacked/covered. Oak after ten months.


The second picture was taken yesterday and is a place ten to twelve miles from me. The pile was twice as big, half again as high. He splits into a telehandler bucket and piles. This past spring there was no pile, so he has been busy. I do not know him, what he sells or his pricing. He gets tree service wood, uses a home made splitter with four-way and with large tables around it to hold several big rounds, and splits into the bucket. I knocked on his door but no one around. Way less equipment costs, probably way less log costs (if any) than me. Way more profitable I suspect too...
Edit: There was a dually and dump trailer there that I suspect he used for deliveries.


----------



## Hinerman (Dec 24, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I doubt anybody hates handleing wood more than me.



My sons (9 & 12) might compete with you for this title. If you pout and cry when it is time to go to the woodlot, then you are definitely a contender. 

Handling the wood multiple times does suck.


----------



## sirbuildalot (Dec 24, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I guess one reason I dont get into the firewood business is because I doubt anybody hates handleing wood more than me. The market is certainly here for a wood business. People pay all kinds of prices for little pickup loads of green fresh cut and split wood. Those selling firewood dont believe in tieing up their money long enough for the wood to dry. Someone selling quality prepared firewood around here could get rich, as Long as they can produce a quality product and deliver the wood when its needed. *It would take the proper equipment and a major investment up front.*
> 
> With that said, I have looked at every kind, brand, type of wood processing equipment there is on the internet. I have yet to see anything I think I would like to use for a firewood business. The closest thing I think would fit my wants would be a full blown processor, and I dont like any of the normally seen processors. It seems all of them take to much support equipment to keep them working. What is normally sold, usually are very limited to the size of wood they can process. I like the Packfix that Sandhill uses to catch his splits. I would want a very large shed to stack the packfix packaged wood under. I would want a truck with a knuckle boom loader with pallet forks instead of a grapple, to load and unload those pallets for delivery. I would want the bed of that truck to be a dump. If I was putting up a wood lot, I would probably want a set of scales, buy my firewood by weight and sell it that way, no overages or underages that way. Those log trucks loads that aint what they are supposed to be will be told on when they cross the scales and you pay for what you get, not what they say they have. No shortage on the selling side either, sell it by the lb and show them a weight ticket. Mixed wood produces the same btu's per lb as a lb of premium hardwoods. Your selling heat and btu's, wood is just the means to get there. At anyrate, my goal would be to reduce the amount of manual labor as much as possible, and increase production with the least number of personal and you can increase profit with a smaller amount of product.




I think its a great idea, but major investment is an understatement. What would a couple full size truck scales including setup, a big building (sorry, but if you're buying a Posch and scales you better plan on hundreds of cords and a huge building to house those splits, not a large shed), a truck with a Knuckleboom, a Posch, and enough land to use it all cost. Then we have scale calibration, fuel, help, taxes, etc. I have to believe this setup is going to run someone at least a half a million. What kind of return investment are we talking if your making $60 a cord profit? At 300 cord a year it would take almost *28 years* to pay for itself. There is a reason no firewood sellers do it this way. Its too expensive to setup. Realistically I could do a re-roof on a 2 day weekend and profit a grand after paying the help. With minimal equipment or overhead. I cant see selling firewood as being that profitable. It only seems profitable if you were a tree company and already had free wood from jobs. Paying for loglength means minimum profit leftover for you. Then you have the customers who will complain no matter what.

You shorted me!
This isn't seasoned enough!
I only wanted oak!
You were supposed to stack it!
You made a mess of my driveway!


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 24, 2016)

Bundles...
kiln dried???


----------



## Jefflac02 (Dec 24, 2016)

There is a local company that does sawmill lumber that also does split firewood delivery. From what I know of his setup, they keep pulp wood type logs at a separate lot for the next year. Then they bring them in and cut them and split them. They use a conveyor to load their 1 ton dump truck for deliveries or they pile it and move it with a skid steer that they also use to load their dump if its piled. 

He uses his labor to cut firewood when there is downtime throughout, so it's not just a seasonal job for him. I would say he delivers 750-1000 cord a year on his dump
Truck. He is always running with the dump loaded to somewhere. Not sure what he charges per load or how much is on a load. But I can tell you there is very little handling of the wood. He delivers to the site and dumps it where asked. 

Jeff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 24, 2016)

I love hearing how others do things. 
I had two truck loads of logs from last year. The bark comes off in three foot lengths when handling. Cut and split, you would think it was just pulled from a river. It does seem to be drying quicker than usual though. Maybe because the bark is off, but I've assumed seasoning to be longitudinal wicking of moisture more than radial. I do not think logs season. Cut in rounds, then yes if air/sun is getting to it. If on end on the ground, then no, it will rot.
I buy logs, and work from there. It's kind of a bad start right from the get-go. 
Reducing handling doesn't make up for that...but is still necessary to increase volume. Lots of obstacles with increased volume. I may just have to let go of the idea of 'seasoning'.


----------



## Tenderfoot (Dec 24, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I love hearing how others do things.
> I had two truck loads of logs from last year. The bark comes off in three foot lengths when handling. Cut and split, you would think it was just pulled from a river. It does seem to be drying quicker than usual though. Maybe because the bark is off, but I've assumed seasoning to be longitudinal wicking of moisture more than radial. I do not think logs season. Cut in rounds, then yes if air/sun is getting to it. If on end on the ground, then no, it will rot.
> I buy logs, and work from there. It's kind of a bad start right from the get-go.
> Reducing handling doesn't make up for that...but is still necessary to increase volume. Lots of obstacles with increased volume. I may just have to let go of the idea of 'seasoning'.


I have started to do my 'seasoning' in round form. It seems to work well enough and I can store a lot more wood in the same space. Just split with demand and do my deliveries Thursday-Friday-Saturday. But I do a lot lower volume then you do.


----------



## cantoo (Dec 24, 2016)

I store my 12' Ash logs in piles on scrap logs until I can get time to cut them into rounds. I try to cut them into rounds and leave them sit for a while to season. I drop them off the conveyor and level the piles off with my loader to get more sun and wind. I do sell some right away but most sit for at least a month or so. These logs were cut over the summer, cut into rounds, sat in rounds for a week and then I split them all over a 2 week period. I have no idea how much is here but I've sold approx. 10 loads out of this pile and it's barely half gone. I sell by the trailer load, don't care how much is in the trailer but a load is $x, take it or leave it.
I do my firewooding in batches because I think it gets more done in a shorter amount of time. No setting up multiple times to do different tasks.
I cut trees down and haul to a pile until I have 200 or so logs piled up, they dry a little in this form. This takes me several months. Then I use my loader and forks and put 3 logs on at a time, mark and cut the logs into 16" rounds. I use the loader to push the rounds into low piles. This takes me a couple or weekends and nights to do which helps to dry them. Then I set up my 4 way splitter and conveyor and start splitting. This again takes me a couple of weekends and a few nights to do. Doing it in batches also makes you push abit to get the task done. Then my son does the deliveries, we hand load onto the conveyor which drops the splits into my dump trailer. The trailer sits at his workplace on a busy highway with a large sign on it saying $X per load delivered.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 24, 2016)

Hinerman said:


> My sons (9 & 12) might compete with you for this title. If you pout and cry when it is time to go to the woodlot, then you are definitely a contender.
> 
> Handling the wood multiple times does suck.


I am definitely a contender. My wife drags me down there kicking and screaming all the way.


----------



## cantoo (Dec 24, 2016)

Missed the last pic.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 24, 2016)

Tenderfoot said:


> Folks where I am expect it, but when they get it they are shocked. Its not abnormal for folks around here to say 'no seasoned wood after X date' unless they are selling $300 face cords.
> 
> Do you have any more information on that fellow? He sounds like he knows his wood and may be worth emulating if he has been at it for so long with a degree of success.


I have no ideal how long he has been in business, a long time is my best guess.I have know of him for 10 or 15 years. He is set up on a old sawmill that has closed down. The scales where already in place, as was the kiln. I suspect he rents the old mill, so he hasnt tied up a lot of money in buildings and kilns and such. I also dont know who is buying all his firewood bundles. The rest of his operation is pretty straight forward. Firewood processor, with a couple of smaller splitters for resplits. Knuckle boom mounted on a truck for handleing the logs. A long conveyor for moving the splits to the baskets. Forklift to move the baskets. There are no stacks or piles of wood around his place. it either goes into a metal basket for the kiln, or off the conveyor onto the back of a truck for delivery. I have never seen his bundling operation, but they are usually either processing wood or everybody is down at the bundling shed. I am reasonably sure that some firewood seller are buying from him to resell, or maybe they are delivering for him, that I am not sure about.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 24, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Bundles...
> kiln dried???


I am pretty sure if your hauling out of state, all firewood has to be kiln dried to kill off any bugs.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 24, 2016)

sirbuildalot said:


> I think its a great idea, but major investment is an understatement. What would a couple full size truck scales including setup, a big building (sorry, but if you're buying a Posch and scales you better plan on hundreds of cords and a huge building to house those splits, not a large shed), a truck with a Knuckleboom, a Posch, and enough land to use it all cost. Then we have scale calibration, fuel, help, taxes, etc. I have to believe this setup is going to run someone at least a half a million. What kind of return investment are we talking if your making $60 a cord profit? At 300 cord a year it would take almost *28 years* to pay for itself. There is a reason no firewood sellers do it this way. Its too expensive to setup. Realistically I could do a re-roof on a 2 day weekend and profit a grand after paying the help. With minimal equipment or overhead. I cant see selling firewood as being that profitable. It only seems profitable if you were a tree company and already had free wood from jobs. Paying for loglength means minimum profit leftover for you. Then you have the customers who will complain no matter what.
> 
> You shorted me!
> This isn't seasoned enough!
> ...



Well it seems your pretty negative on my ideal. Dont blame you, if you have never thought big, its hard to plan big. This is certainly not a business plan for a part time firewooder, or someone looking to pick up some extra change to supplement their regular steady income. I would guesstimate if you had to buy everything new, your half million dollar estimate might be close. I havent tried to put any numbers to anything I have suggested, but I do know I wouldnt have to buy new equipment to make it work. I wouldnt have to buy any land either. there are plenty of vacant buildings about everywhere I go. Large factories that have shut down, relocated, left the country, what ever. Plenty of old pulpwood yards that have shut down too. Scales can be bought pretty reasonable. I know where a set is now just setting in the weeds that can probably be bought for scrap. Old logging knuckle booms are setting in the weeds everywhere. Biggest investment would probably be a really good used processor. If you kiln dried the wood for out of state sales, then that would also be a major investment, but if you are air drying and saleing local, all you need is someplace to put the baskets of wood. I would guess if you want to sale a 1000 cord a year, it is going to take some up front money to stock your wood yard. At any rate, I believe I could setup such a operation for a lot less than the 1/2million dollars you are suggesting.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Dec 24, 2016)

Unless your wood supply is free, it is a struggle to keep the hours low enough to make it work.


----------



## Tenderfoot (Dec 24, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Unless your wood supply is free, it is a struggle to keep the hours low enough to make it work.


If you deal with tree service wood sending a job or a 6 pack, even a gatorade or hot coffee to the guy driving makes things go easier. Ive been getting some real good wood from a couple local guys since I sent a couple jobs their way. Always try to make life easy for the guy dropping it off. Ask for it in spring and summer time when they cant get rid of wood. Ive been lucky enough that I can give them specs (22 in dia, no longer then 18in or log length, as little metal as you can) and they are happy to do it. Your area may be different and you may not be as lucky to find such flexible guys. But I am one of a few folks taking more then a cord a year so they remember me and know I will always make room for more wood in the spring when they cant be rid of it.


----------



## muddstopper (Dec 24, 2016)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Unless your wood supply is free, it is a struggle to keep the hours low enough to make it work.


wood prices are all over the place for sure. I can and have bought 8 cord truck loads for $400 mixed hardwoods, but our area is mostly oaks. Processed thats about $1600. Sure there is cost in processing, but I am pretty sure I could squeeze out a small profit from the $1200 over the cost of the wood. I always sort of figured "If" I got in the firewood business, I would buy a truck load, process and sale half of it and then buy another load and repeat until I got my lot full of ready to sale wood. I probably wouldnt last long in the business tho, I have a habit of telling whiners and the pain in the butt types off and I wont jump thru hoops trying to satisfy their every whim. It is what it is, take it that way or get the heck off my lot.


----------



## Tenderfoot (Dec 24, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> wood prices are all over the place for sure. I can and have bought 8 cord truck loads for $400 mixed hardwoods, but our area is mostly oaks. Processed thats about $1600. Sure there is cost in processing, but I am pretty sure I could squeeze out a small profit from the $1200 over the cost of the wood. I always sort of figured "If" I got in the firewood business, I would buy a truck load, process and sale half of it and then buy another load and repeat until I got my lot full of ready to sale wood. I probably wouldnt last long in the business tho, I have a habit of telling whiners and the pain in the butt types off and I wont jump thru hoops trying to satisfy their every whim. It is what it is, take it that way or get the heck off my lot.


If you have trouble with whiners I would not sell after October or early November. The earlier the customer buys the better they are, typically. Early season types tend to be more informed and ask the right questions and will not waste your time. The closer to Christmas they buy the worse they get, then all of the sudden they get nicer again.


----------



## absrio (Jan 15, 2017)

I like this guys method for delivering the bags I know your set up is different but maybe the pallet jack(?) @5:19 could work for your set up? IDK. just an idea.


----------

