# Throwbag nightmare



## Bermie (Dec 19, 2009)

Ok, so I am NOT the best with a throwbag...

I got to my job,nice old Bermuda cedar in the back near the pool and verandah, just a couple of broken branches up about 30'...cedars (actually is a juniper to be exact) are quite thin barked so I like to use a cambium saver when climbing them. Bougainvillea all around the base and no low branches...

Set up the throwbag, FIRST SHOT it goes just where I want it!!! Wow, this never happens to me! I'm all chuffed, start to pull the line back to clear a couple of small snags before lowering it to the ground and :censored: the bag falls off the line (didn't check the knot) Tie it back on and...well 10 mins later it gets irretrevably stuck...:censored:...trek to the truck to get another one...10 mins later I finally get the second one in the right spot...pull up the cambium saver, flip it around then on the way down the bag and line get stuck on a tiny twig...:censored:...Bda cedar is very hard when dead, No amount of pulling is going to snap that little twiglet...so get the pole saw, extend it, fiddle and push and twist til FINALLY I get it free...

I was in the tree for 20 minutes...after probably that and more getting the bloody line into it! Did i say I'm not good with a throwbag?

It was not my best day...here are some of my excuses...

I'm not good with a throwbag
I'm below average with a throwbag
People take their children, pets and prized possesions indoors when I appear with a throwbag
Shutters go up over windows when I appear with a throwbag
The emergency signal kicks in on the radio when I appear with a throwbag

Sigh....


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## IcePick (Dec 19, 2009)

*I'm no pro either...*

but wow...give me my saddle, a handsaw, a throwbag, and i can prune any tree you throw at me, it has turned into one of my most beloved tools.


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## voxac30dude (Dec 19, 2009)

IcePick said:


> but wow...give me my saddle, a handsaw, a throwbag, and i can prune any tree you throw at me, it has turned into one of my most beloved tools.



you forgot about a rope ICE PICK.


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## IcePick (Dec 19, 2009)

voxac30dude said:


> you forgot about a rope ICE PICK.




Nah, I just use the throwline as my rope


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## Mikecutstrees (Dec 19, 2009)

It still frustrates me alot but I'm getting much much better. I find if I concentrate on where I want to throw it helps alot. Hint... don't throw for the branch but a foot above it. I'm always amazed at how I can bounce off a branch 40' up..... Mike


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## outofmytree (Dec 19, 2009)

Hey Bermie, I feel your pain. Actually my groundie felt it more. He managed to get the throwline wrapped around a _C.citriodora_ branch and gave an almighty heave to free it. He snapped the branch off and hit himself in the arm. Couldnt raise a beer glass for a week so I knew he wasnt faking!

Have you considered using an adjustable false crotch for pruning? I have made some pretty awful throw bag shots and like you said, often spent more time setting up than actually pruning. Because positioning a false crotch doesnt rely on precise throwing it is both faster to do and I have found with the pressure off that my aim has actually improved! They no longer call the medics when I open my faltemier!


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## oscar4883 (Dec 19, 2009)

I notice that as the temperature drops my release technique is dramatically affected and I often send shots out horizontally at head level. Just another reason for those on the ground to were a helmet. LOL. Then there was the time I took a stuck 14oz. bag to the shin at about 80mph. I swore I broke my leg. Funny now, at the time however, not so much.


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## DK_stihl (Dec 19, 2009)

*throwbag*

Throwbags work the best for me when fired from my BIG SHOT! I love that thing! Everyone should have one.


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## Slvrmple72 (Dec 20, 2009)

I have a healthy appreciation for my throwbags starting with the time I thought I could yank a dead Pin Oak limb outta the tree. That sucker shot straight at me with all of the tension in that stupid little throwline smacking me right in the forehead where my safety glasses broke and gave me a lovely cut to go with the bruise. Oh yeah, did I mention falling back on my :censored: in front of the customer after talking up the handy little throwbag!? 

Anyhow, I have my good days and my bad with it. Love the big shot, my son and I use it to launch Walnuts at the Squirrels for practice. Talk about fast food!


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## arboralliance (Dec 20, 2009)

*Just like all of us...*

...on any given day...

We laugh and joke when the throwline issues become obtuse...

My theory is i gota get it in the first three goes or on the hundredth go...:monkey:


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 20, 2009)

DK_stihl said:


> Throwbags work the best for me when fired from my BIG SHOT! I love that thing! Everyone should have one.



They are nice!!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 20, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> I have a healthy appreciation for my throwbags starting with the time I thought I could yank a dead Pin Oak limb outta the tree. That sucker shot straight at me with all of the tension in that stupid little throwline smacking me right in the forehead where my safety glasses broke and gave me a lovely cut to go with the bruise. Oh yeah, did I mention falling back on my :censored: in front of the customer after talking up the handy little throwbag!?



Ouch.. how big a throwbag were you using.. course it hurts regardless.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 20, 2009)

I've been using shotbags for near ten years now, and it is like my pool game; some days I am hot and others I gotta take what i can get. All they guys I know who are real good practice at it in the back yard or in the shop, kinda like target practice. Shoot at ladder rungs in the shop...

I've never been able to do things like that.


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## Bermie (Dec 20, 2009)

arboralliance said:


> ...on any given day...
> 
> We laugh and joke when the throwline issues become obtuse...
> 
> My theory is i gota get it in the first three goes or on the hundredth go...:monkey:



thats about it!!
What annoyed me the most was getting it in just the right spot on the first throw, then had the bag fall off, only myself to blame though...


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## BRCCArborist (Dec 20, 2009)

Thats the worst man. I'm pretty hit or miss with the throwbag. Somedays I'm on, others I'm off. I'm jealous of guys who can throw high as anything, and be accurate as well. Makes the BigShot a pretty nice investment.

I also find that sometimes it's best to just let the bag come down and untie it before trying to pull it out, especially on hickory, pin oak, things of that nature.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> thats about it!!
> What annoyed me the most was getting it in just the right spot on the first throw, then had the bag fall off, only myself to blame though...



I've done that with the BigShot and lost the bag several doors down


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## Bermie (Dec 20, 2009)

Well, its making me feel a bit better to read that there are others who have throwbag issues too...
does anyone go and practice in an attempt to get better?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Well, its making me feel a bit better to read that there are others who have throwbag issues too...
> does anyone go and practice in an attempt to get better?



I know people who do, they set up a ladder and aim for rungs. You only get to go higher when you hit a given rung several times in a row.


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## treesquirrel (Dec 20, 2009)

Unless its a low crotch I'm aiming for I use my trusty Big shot. I hate trying to make long throws. So I don't anymore.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Well, its making me feel a bit better to read that there are others who have throwbag issues too...
> *does anyone go and practice in an attempt to get better?*



Yeah! I admit it. Practice throwing. Practice isolating branches. Practice helps. 

BTW, I live in the woods. So, I don't have to look crazy in front of the neighbors ... the wife gets to chuckle now-n-then ... 
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Bermie (Dec 20, 2009)

Once I get it up there I'm pretty good at isolating.

I'll have to get the bow and arrow out again, the bow is home made from surinam cherry, with an old spinning reel on the front with 6lb test on it...

So what size trees do you think justifies the expense of a big shot?

Maybe I should just go practice and stop whinging


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## treesquirrel (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> So what size trees do you think justifies the expense of a big shot?



I use mine in any situation where I need to toss higher than about 25 feet. Sometimes even lower as I've come to love my Big shot so much.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Once I get it up there I'm pretty good at isolating.
> 
> I'll have to get the *bow and arrow *out again, the bow is home made from surinam cherry, with an old *spinning reel on the front with 6lb test* on it...
> 
> ...



Tried a bow & arrow - works but bulky - 6lb test is not enough! Be aware, some locations consider a bow & arrow a weapon.

Use a Big Shot on anything higher than you can throw -but it's bulky, too.

Tried a sling shot, spinning reel, 80lb Spectra line, good up to about 60ft - small but NOT as good as a Big Shot (80ft+)


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## oscar4883 (Dec 20, 2009)

I practice with the throwbag about once a week or so. If I get to lazy to take the bag off in-between shots I practice climbing sometimes as well.


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## Taxmantoo (Dec 20, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Tried a bow & arrow - Tried a sling shot...



As long as you're thinking outside the box, have you tried a potato cannon?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 20, 2009)

taxmantoo said:


> As long as you're thinking outside the box, have you tried a *potato cannon*?



Actually, lol, I was thinking of making one for grins ... Don't tell me you've done it!!!


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## canopyboy (Dec 20, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Actually, lol, I was thinking of making one for grins ... Don't tell me you've done it!!!



Saw a guy recently use a spud gun to launch his throwbag. Worked pretty well for him. Course he used an air pump instead of the hairspray and igniter method I grew up with. Probably more repeatable.


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## ArborSmithNw (Dec 20, 2009)

But look at it this way Bermie... you had throwball issues, in BERMUDA!

Life is good!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> So what size trees do you think justifies the expense of a big shot?



Gee that is a tough one. But we have one on each of the trucks, so it really does not matter I guess about the size of the tree. It is there if you want to use it. (I have one in my Dodge diesel as well - in tool box behind cab)


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## outofmytree (Dec 20, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Once I get it up there I'm pretty good at isolating.
> 
> I'll have to get the bow and arrow out again, the bow is home made from surinam cherry, with an old spinning reel on the front with 6lb test on it...
> 
> ...



Kudo's for the bow and arrow. I can imagine the emergency call for the crazy woman shooting arrows at my neighbours tree!

I use both Bigshot and throw bag. Bigshot is good for punching holes through dense canopy or for exact straight line throws. It is my preferred weapon for inserting a false crotch over Washingtonia palms. The throw bag on the other hand is quicker to set up. I hate not being able to do something well so I confess I have put in a fair bit of practise this year. Now it only takes 99 to get in the right crotch.


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## treemandan (Dec 20, 2009)

I saw this wristrocket type sling shot that was meant to shoot tennis balls for a dog to retrieve, it was 20 bucks. I thought it might be good for for short shots with the shot bag cause the big shot tends to really put it up there.
I was with the wife and kid and they kept handing me other stuff to hold and I eventually put it down to rest for a second. I forgot to pic it back up when in line to check out but was to weary from those two to care anymore so I didn't get it.
There is a lot of accuracy with a sling shot so I thought it would be good to try. Also sometimes you are on a hill and its hard to throw in tight quarters.


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## outofmytree (Dec 21, 2009)

Speaking of tight shots, how close have you come to breaking stuff with a throw bag cos you put too much oomph into it? I have had a couple of close calls with roof tiles and once I thought for sure I had broken a solar panel. Gratefully no damage but those 16oz bags really pack a punch.


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## Bermie (Dec 21, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> But look at it this way Bermie... you had throwball issues, in BERMUDA!
> 
> Life is good!



Well yes there is that!!!

Although today its blowing about 35kn, straight in to the bay, I'm stuck on the island where I live...no throwbags to go and practice with, a new job waiting to be seen, and 'oh no!' its CHILLY! It must be what like 60*!

I'm going to go cook up a mess of bacon and eggs and watch TV...hmmm, what's that white stuff on the ground over in the US of A? ..SNOW!...oh boy, I feel better now


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## rmihalek (Dec 21, 2009)

*Ham radio*

Do a search for antenna launchers. The ham radio folks have developed some nice pneumatic tennis ball launchers to set up wires for emergency radio transmission.

Some of these launchers look really cool and turn out to be cheaper than a big shot. Whether they work as well or not, I don't know.


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## outofmytree (Dec 21, 2009)

rmihalek said:


> Do a search for antenna launchers. The ham radio folks have developed some nice pneumatic tennis ball launchers to set up wires for emergency radio transmission.
> 
> Some of these launchers look really cool and turn out to be cheaper than a big shot. Whether they work as well or not, I don't know.



Do they look like a bazooka? Cos after the 911 call about Bermie with a bow and arrow I cant wait for what happens when the nice old lady next door sees her shoulder the launcher and let rip!


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## Bermie (Dec 21, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Do they look like a bazooka? Cos after the 911 call about Bermie with a bow and arrow I cant wait for what happens when the nice old lady next door sees her shoulder the launcher and let rip!



Ha ha...now THAT would be cool! 
Although maybe to police would hire me to take out the gangstas that are shooting each other with disturbing regularity...hi viz and all, side line in pest control...

Next time I get a chance I'll get a picture of the bow...the arrow was the tip of an old spinning rod, with a weight in the nose, it worked really well, till I lost it during one of my cleanout sessions of the back of the van...we used the 6lb line to pull up the throwline, then my climbing line, my hubby could hit a 6" gap up about 60' no problem.
the new arrow is a regular aluminum target arrow, haven't tried it yet...hence my lamentations over a throwbag...


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## outofmytree (Dec 21, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Ha ha...now THAT would be cool!
> Although maybe to police would hire me to take out the gangstas that are shooting each other with disturbing regularity...hi viz and all, side line in pest control...
> 
> Next time I get a chance I'll get a picture of the bow...the arrow was the tip of an old spinning rod, with a weight in the nose, it worked really well, till I lost it during one of my cleanout sessions of the back of the van...we used the 6lb line to pull up the throwline, then my climbing line, my hubby could hit a 6" gap up about 60' no problem.
> the new arrow is a regular aluminum target arrow, haven't tried it yet...hence my lamentations over a throwbag...



Now that would make for a cool video. Who would be Robin of Loxley and who would be the fair maid Marian?

For that matter, who would be Guy of Gisbourne??


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 21, 2009)

For me the call for the bigshot is when it is a high throw with a steep angle. I will make a try or three before giving in. Of course with me i need a pole assembly that no-one else can use, and ones that others use is a bit too short.

Danger close for me is when I have to shoot towards distribution lines. I've had a few moments of pucker retrieving a line draped partially over primaries. Not sure what would happen if i closed primaries while holding on to the line 

60*F coming off the bay? Sounds darn right balmy, it is ~25* and overcast right now, though the wind is near calm.


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## Bermie (Dec 21, 2009)

Well you couldn't quite call me a swooning damsel in distress...

As for the wx...I'm going to get a white Christmas...heading to Boston tomorrow!


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## gumneck (Dec 21, 2009)

What timing... yesterday I was at the local WM and saw a wrist rocket bungie replacement kit. I have a wrist rocket slingshot from my youth and thought I'd try it out. I ended up using a round 4 oz fishing weight and 50 lb test that I got over a few branches successfully. Ended up trying it on a little higher crotch and got it hung up. Definately worth trying some more but really have to watch out for the coming down part with the fishing weight. 

I plan to try it with some zingit because the fishing line seemed catchy on the pine branches.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 21, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Well you couldn't quite call me a swooning damsel in distress...



Would the mere insinuation get a fella a fat lip  ?


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## Bermie (Dec 21, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Would the mere insinuation get a fella a fat lip  ?



Nah..I'd just simper prettily while revving the 200t...


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## Panama (Dec 21, 2009)

I guess we have all had days like that with the throw line(s).  It won't help with the throw, but tying a bowline in the end, so as to leave a loop about the length of your throw bag sure speeds up the process of bag removal, rope attachment, and bag re-attachment. You just poke the loop through the bag ring and drop the bag through the loop. Makes it easy to attach to the end of your rope also.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 21, 2009)

*I gotta make one of these!!!?*



rmihalek said:


> Do a search for antenna launchers. The ham radio folks have developed some nice pneumatic tennis ball launchers to set up wires for emergency radio transmission.
> 
> Some of these launchers look really cool and turn out to be cheaper than a big shot. Whether they work as well or not, I don't know.



*Antenna Launcher (YouTube Video)*

*CSV19 Pneumatic Antenna Launching System*


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 21, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *Antenna Launcher (YouTube Video)*
> 
> *CSV19 Pneumatic Antenna Launching System*



Not even going to ask 

But anybody with this had best have Ghost Busters on side of their trucks !


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 21, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Not even going to ask
> 
> But anybody with this had best have Ghost Busters on side of their trucks !



YEAH!!! Can you imagine the groundies rollin' around on the ground laughin' if you showed up with one of those? ... and a tire pump?
:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Adkpk (Dec 21, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Speaking of tight shots, how close have you come to breaking stuff with a throw bag cos you put too much oomph into it? I have had a couple of close calls with roof tiles and once I thought for sure I had broken a solar panel. Gratefully no damage but those 16oz bags really pack a punch.



Just so happens I have a nice dent in the hood of my car from a throwbag. Bermie that first post is really comical. I've looked at junipers and wondered how do you get up in them. Especially pertaining to the throwline. Lots of spiney branches.

I am not much different than the rest on here, some throws are right on. But others might take a half hour to get a branch I want. The bigshot isn't always a better way. You can sometimes blow a lot of profit with the throwbag.


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## Bermie (Dec 21, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Just so happens I have a nice dent in the hood of my car from a throwbag. Bermie that first post is really comical. I've looked at junipers and wondered how do you get up in them. Especially pertaining to the throwline. Lots of spiney branches.
> 
> I am not much different than the rest on here, some throws are right on. But others might take a half hour to get a branch I want. The bigshot isn't always a better way. You can sometimes blow a lot of profit with the throwbag.



With our junipers a good sized one is nice and stable and spreading, so I can usually climb freely ( I use that term advisedly) up to the TIP set the cambium saver and go to work, but you are right they are FULL of twigs and brush and on a big one here it is not uncommon for at least half of it to be dead, and the dead wood is as hard as nails and every little twiglet leaves a bruise or a scratch, but the upside is at the end of the day, by gum you smell some kinda nice with all that aromatic sawdust all over you!
This one had a thorny vine all around the base and about 8-10' of clear trunk before the first branch and I didn't have a ladder with me.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 22, 2009)

The thing with setting a long-wire or dipole is that you really don't need to get a good crotch. I've seen hams just throw a line up anywhere (my dad has had a license for 65 years) that thing does not look line it is good for aiming.

Then again, Jerry B. uses a spud gun to set lines in the truly big trees he works in.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 22, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> ...
> The thing with *setting a long-wire or dipole is that you really don't need to get a good crotch*. I've seen hams just throw a line up anywhere (my dad has had a license for 65 years) that thing does not look line it is good for aiming.
> 
> Then again, *Jerry B. uses a spud gun *to set lines in the *truly big trees *he works in.



When I was researching Antenna Launchers, I found one homemade 'cannon' with a RIFLE SCOPE. So, I guess they can be fairly accurate.

*To the OP: A little trick I use in a crowded crown is to throw the line just above the limb I want - then use some 'tricks' I've practiced to isolate the crotch below - it's been pretty reliable and fairly quick. *

There aren't any _"truly big trees"_ around here. So, a TIP at 60ft or less has always been sufficient. A "Wrist Rocket" type slingshot/spinning reel is small, quite accurate and has proven to be plenty good enough to set a good working TIP. Besides, HO's think the slingshot is cool.

Still though, that being said, it'd be fun to build an air cannon - if only to launch tennis balls for the dogs.

BTW, it's really interesting to read that _"Jerry B. uses a spud gun."_


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 22, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> .
> 
> BTW, it's really interesting to read that _"Jerry B. uses a spud gun."_



It's been a few years since i talked to him about it, but i remember he said that he was using a Nerf-like, weighted bullet shaped projectile


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## Bermie (Dec 22, 2009)

Well this has been a fun thread, taking off just now, at the airport heading for the snowy US of A...harness is packed, cause I might meet up with some of the Boston gang....SUCH a treegeek!

Merry Christmas and Happy New year everyone, stay safe and may your stockings be stuffed with all that cool treegear you have been wishing for!!


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## pdqdl (Dec 22, 2009)

*What technique are you throwing with?*

I'm sure you have experimented, but what method are you throwing the weight with? One hand or two? I can't hit diddly using just one hand. On the other hand (literally), I caught a macaw by the foot last year tossing with the weight cradled between both hands.

I cradle the weight between two hands, and toss on about the 3rd swing. I have found that I am actually a bit more accurate when I don't let the string cradle get too long. I saw a video of Murphy and he was using about 3 feet of string, just barely off off the ground, so apparently different people have better luck with widely different throwing methods. I tried the long string method, and all I did was miss an easy target.


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## ArborSmithNw (Dec 22, 2009)

All methods should work as its just lobbing something in the air in different ways (some goofier looking than others!) 

The one common factor: Spot your target, and do not take your eyes off of it. It may sound remedial, but truly focus on not letting your eyes leave the exact spot you want to hit... 

It's amazing how the human body works, the ball has no othe place to go!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 22, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> Spot your target, and do not take your eyes off of it. It may sound remedial, but truly focus on not letting your eyes leave the exact spot you want to hit...



Yep. Amazing how well that works.. pretty basic but sometimes hard lesson to learn.


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## treemandan (Dec 22, 2009)

Take a seemigly normal sane person ( no, not me silly) and give that person a little yellow string with a ball tied to one end and watch what happens. 
They will try to tell you need therapy, they will say " calm down", they do not understand. They won't or don't even try to throw it themselves but if they do that is sure going to be a whole lot funnier.
Once I took a free hand shot, it was good. While the ball was in flight a guy pulled into the driveway where the ball was going to land. He was in a convertable Mustang, he got out and went inside, just as the door closed the ball came to a stop, dangling about 2 feet right over the driver's seat.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 23, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> The one common factor: Spot your target, and do not take your eyes off of it. It may sound remedial, but truly focus on not letting your eyes leave the exact spot you want to hit...



What i do is look at the target, then my hand and look back and forth a few times, then I visualize the ball arcing over the chosen limb. Works quite often.


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## Grace Tree (Dec 23, 2009)

I look at the target, then at my hand, then at down to see if my fly is open, then I visualize Bernie Kosar throwing the throw bag in a wobbly spiral, then I think of the good old days when Cleveland still had a football team, then I curse Art Modell and go to the truck for the Big Shot.
Phil


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## Tree Machine (Jan 3, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> What i do is look at the target, then my hand and look back and forth a few times, then I visualize the ball arcing over the chosen limb. Works quite often.



This may sound funny, but I personally take it as hard truth. Maybe its about the concentration, I tell throwers that sometimes you have to _will_ it over. As unusual as it sounds, a weighted projectile lobbing through a fork is an extension of your mind. Just before your throw, take an extra couple seconds and think to yourself, "Concentrate Grasshoppa." 
When I do a casual throw on a relatively easy target, taking it for granted that its an easy peasy, I'll miss that sucker far more often than a more difficult throw where I'm focussed with intent.



Bermie said:


> So what size trees do you think justifies the expense of a big shot?


Like any piece of good gear, you quickly forget about the money spent and enjoy the benefits the gear brings.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 3, 2010)

BTW, my personal crossover range between throw vs bigshot is about 40 feet.
I've thrown and nailed much higher, but I'm usually kinda surprised.

With the bigshot, the accuracy I just find astounding, especially, like John Paul says, when the shot is really steep and really high.

The pic here was a tough shot, I mean tough getting the shot, not in the tree, but with the camera, one hand pulling and the other hand on the camera not being able to see the monitor.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jan 3, 2010)

Some of you know I don't climb. But I did keep a bag in case I needed to pull a limb sometime for whatever reason. But the bag never got used.

A few months ago, I helping someone measure coast redwoods. And their "window" was blocked to aim the laser rangefinder at the top leaders. They found another window, but next time out, I brought my throw bag and about 40 feet of line.

We encountered another limb blocking a window, about 20 feet high. The bag worked great, but still took about 6 throws. I found that I can't toss much higher than 25', even with a swinging motion. My shoulder is too stiff.

Am thinking about a sling-shot, but it can't be much bigger than a wrist rocket because space in our packs is limited. It would almost have to be strapped on the outside, with a short handle. A BIGSHOT could work with a short handle taken off and used as a hiking stick.

From my 20 foot experiments, its evident that the bag toss can be quite a skill.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 3, 2010)

I find it's more in the wrist, elbow and release fingers. The shoulder should move very little. The less overall motion you put into a throw, the fewer variables to go wrong.


When I travel, the bigshot gets stowed cradled around the coiled rope, essentially taking up no more additional space than the hanked rope itself. The bigshot head can be applied to a stick in the woods, just make sure its a stout stick that won't break, and whittle the end round to accommodate the ferrule end. I've had to do this. Or you could put a rubber cap on the end of a fiberglass pole and use it as a hiking stick. This, I've never done.

MD, you do some cool stuff.


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## Marty B (Jan 5, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Well, its making me feel a bit better to read that there are others who have throwbag issues too...
> does anyone go and practice in an attempt to get better?



I work for a parks dept. in Chico Ca. We get lots of practice pulling hangers out of the trees in the pic-nic areas. Maybe you have a park in your area with some large trees...you might get some funny looks, but who cares!!
John Paul has the proper mind set...visulization goes a long way. I also take the ball off the throw line when I pull the throw line out....it helps the bag last longer especially when working over concrete


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 5, 2010)

Marty B said:


> I work for a parks dept. in Chico Ca.



If you see Greg L in the near future, say say hi for me.


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## ArborSmithNw (Jan 5, 2010)

M.D. Vaden said:


> A few months ago, I helping someone measure coast redwoods. And their "window" was blocked to aim the laser rangefinder at the top leaders. They found another window, but next time out, I brought my throw bag and about 40 feet of line.



Throwing into our NW Redwoods is a WHOLE nother' category! You have to have Jedi patience & Yoda skills!


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## ArborSmithNw (Jan 5, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> The shoulder should move very little. The less overall motion you put into a throw, the fewer variables to go wrong.



Couldn't be a truer statement. 

If you ever watch a champion billiard player, you will note how absolutely mechanical the joint motions are when they deliver the stroke to hit the cue ball, same principals apply to throwing. As does the focusing on the target (pocket in their case). If you watch closely, you will note they look to the pocket, back to the cue ball once, and then back to the pocket where their eyes stay focused and don't leave for 2 or 3 practice strokes & then deliver the shot.

I personally have taken that method & applied it to throw balling. AMAZING. Difficult to train yourself to do, but amazing results.


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## pbtree (Jan 6, 2010)

I do not have the best luck with them, but what the heck!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 6, 2010)

ArborSmith said:


> If you ever watch a champion billiard player, you will note how absolutely mechanical the joint motions are when they deliver the stroke to hit the cue ball, same principals apply to throwing. As does the focusing on the target (pocket in their case).



Well-said! 

I joke in my mind that line setting is one of the things I do best.

It's a joke because there's so many things I'd be better off at being better at, like anything mechanical, interacting with other humans, financial things.

There are so many duties outside of the actual care of the tree itself that it pays to be good at. I can't do my own taxes, but I can drain shots with amazing consistency.

I can't really describe this in words, but there's a very large emotional rift, between nailing your shot and not. Maybe some of you will agree. 
Aceing the throw= joy and elation. Life is good.
Getting it on the second shot= ahhh, I see what I did wrong on the first shot.
Got it on the third shot=About frickin time.
Missed the fourth shot= Geeeodd dang shtttt frckkk arrrrrrr!
Missed the fifth shot=Quit staring at me, you're all fired!

OK, Tree Machine's being funny. Sort of.


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## tree MDS (Jan 6, 2010)

A while back I had this last tree to drop at the end of a long day, dead ash spike leaning to the left over a hemlock, with the house just the other side of that. The tree was way too dead to climb. Well there was not one branch on the right side to hold the line, and just one crotch on the left (and a tiny super dead little stub just below that). It was one of those deals where I had to throw through an annoying norway limb on a hill, in the woods line. Well on about what felt like the fiftieth throw the HO comes along to check out this action. I dont think I knew my own name by the time he showed up I was so pissed off. That thing must have missed the crotch by like 2" and slid down the right side about 15 times. Somehow I managed to maintain my composure barely. Eventually I got it in the lower stub, and luckily it didnt break.

But yeah, I know the madness well.


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## ArborSmithNw (Jan 6, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Aceing the throw= joy and elation. Life is good.
> Getting it on the second shot= ahhh, I see what I did wrong on the first shot.
> Got it on the third shot=About frickin time.
> Missed the fourth shot= Geeeodd dang shtttt frckkk arrrrrrr!
> Missed the fifth shot=Quit staring at me, you're all fired!




And there I thought I was all alone in the cruel world!!

(I never really fire until the 8th throw, 6 & 7 just make them wonder about their security, it tends to make them support your efforts more!)

It's funny, my boys bust my   all the time about being outdated & useless, yet I get at least a call a month to go set a line for them!


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 6, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Well-said!
> 
> I joke in my mind that line setting is one of the things I do best.
> 
> ...



Being the groundie who hits it first shot after standing around for an hour watching throwbags go everywhere - priceless.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 6, 2010)

That IS priceless, BC.


.... so if there's any way I can help anyone to avoid throwbag nightmares, 
(Hi Bermie)
I will go out of my way to do so.

The throwline is that one remaining detail between you being on the ground and you being in the tree.

I love and look forward to doing the throw or shot, and isolating the limb. Its truly one of my very favorite things to do, next to the actual climbing and tree care duties.


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## Marty B (Jan 7, 2010)

*Greg Liu*



John Paul Sanborn said:


> If you see Greg L in the near future, say say hi for me.



Will do John Paul......Our sons (both named Austin) go to H.S. together. If you don't mind me asking, how did you meet him? Send me a PM if you like.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 7, 2010)

Marty B said:


> Will do John Paul......Our sons (both named Austin) go to H.S. together. If you don't mind me asking, how did you meet him? Send me a PM if you like.



We worked on the Tree House project with Jerry B, roomed at Oxman's house for ISA in Seattle and have had a few beers at other conferences.


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## Bermie (Jan 7, 2010)

Hey TM...that was funny, that's just the way it goes! somebody drop some rep on him for me...all out at the mo'!:jester:

In your picture, do you throw with the micro biner attached?
I'm going to get some practice in this week...especially after seeing Moss nail it about 60' up a white pine in a snowstorm...

My usual method is the one arm throw from the side, bag help in a longish loop...the problem seems to be timing the relaese, too soon=too low, too late=too high or somewhere in the next property!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 7, 2010)

Hi Bermie,

Yes, I do use the micron, but that's only because of several reasons that might be unique and important only to me:

1) I generally have an eye termination on the climbing line, making it bag-off, rope-on in one fluid motion. Same thing in reverse one the rope is set. 

2) This can be done equally as fast without having to take off my grippy gloves.

3) The picture above with the red/black 8 oz Harrison Rocket shows the shotline tied directly to the biner. I don't do that anymore. I tie a loop at the end of the shotline, clip the biner onto the loop. This way I can instantly remove both the bag and the biner if there is no eye on the rope and I need to tie shotline directly to the rope.

4) The little aluminum biner has a very strong spring gate, never hangs up on branches, adds only a few grams, lays flat alongside the shotbag in the bigshot pouch, gives only positives in performance and savings in time.

5) As the picture below shows, after nailing the target I can drop the bag to the ground & instantly add ballast to aid in isolating a limb if the tree is giving me a bit too much friction. I'll clip the link on anytime the tree is wet or when I know I'll need to do a mighty swing to clear a more nearward limb below the tie-in point. I don't have to add ballast too often, but when it's necessary, it's gold.


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## Marty B (Jan 7, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> We worked on the Tree House project with Jerry B, roomed at Oxman's house for ISA in Seattle and have had a few beers at other conferences.



Ah...The Tree House Project, a crown reduction on a 2000 yr. old Coastal Redwood. The DVD is must see. I bet you guys could have rigged a Scooner with all the line that was needed for that project. I've got the DVD. Can the DVD be ordered from Bailey's?opcorn:


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## Bermie (Jan 7, 2010)

Hmmm, interesting TM.

Moss showed me a neat way to make a loop on the end of a climb line that does not have a spliced eye:
Sew a piece of tubular nylon sling material over the end of the rope, then double it back to make a small loop...that way you have a streamlined loop on the end that is sufficient for clipping a micro biner into to pull it up.

Its on my to do list...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 7, 2010)

*Ness Loop*



Bermie said:


> Hmmm, interesting TM.
> 
> Moss showed me a neat way to make a *loop on the end of a climb line *that does not have a spliced eye:
> Sew a piece of tubular nylon sling material over the end of the rope, then double it back to make a small loop...that way you have a streamlined loop on the end that is sufficient for clipping a micro biner into to pull it up.
> ...



*That's sometimes called a Ness Loop, named after Tom Ness (TCI):*






*Here's another way to do it:*






*I have one on each end of all my ropes - very useful - saves time.*


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## Tree Machine (Jan 7, 2010)

Ness has always been an amazing innovator.


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## moss (Jan 7, 2010)

I just replaced the webbing loop that Bermie mentioned with this sort of over the top confabulation inspired by another climber Hunabku on the TCC forum. These ideas are definitely like viruses, saw it yesterday made my version today.







The loop (bottom of the photo) is made from 1.8mm Dynaglide doubled then pulled through the cover made from a short length of tech cord. The Dynaglide is knotted with an f8.

The core of the Tachyon (green rope) is taken out about 3 inches. The loop is stuffed inside the Tachyon cover and pinned down with a wrap of 1.75mm ZingIt which is brushed w/super glue.

A loop like this is very useful for installing a cinched SRT pitch when the height of the TIP is greater than half the length of the rope. The tapered end will drop nicely through the bight on a Running Bowline.
-moss


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

Marty B said:


> Ah...The Tree House Project, a crown reduction on a 2000 yr. old Coastal Redwood. The DVD is must see. I bet you guys could have rigged a Scooner with all the line that was needed for that project. I've got the DVD. Can the DVD be ordered from Bailey's?opcorn:



Probably, or go to Jerry's site. http://www.atreestory.com/ I have the rough edit on VCR.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Ness has always been an amazing innovator.



He just does not give credit to those who he got the ideas from. That is just another way to do the whipping loop, and the glue was shown by an old member here 8-9 years ago.

He is a good guy, a bit self-important.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

> The loop (bottom of the photo) is made from 1.8mm Dynaglide



Seems to me the old whipping loop would be more practical. This seems over thought.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 8, 2010)

As long as it's strong enough to haul up an occasional Husky 395 or a reel of 3/8" cable and cabling gear I'm good with it.


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## Bermie (Jan 8, 2010)

So its going to be a ####ty weekend, gales and such, no going ashore for a couple of days.
So I took two throwbags and lines home with me, going to get some practice throwing, took my rope home too, going to sew in the little loops on the ends...thats if I don't get distracted with a good book...

Tata for now (TTFN)


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## Tree Machine (Jan 8, 2010)

Here's a simple thing to try. When you're holding the shotline, bag at your side, preparing for the throw... stop. Look at where you're holding the line.
Keep holding, lower the bag down on the ground. Keep holding that spot. Now tie a simple overhand knot to mark that exact position.

(this is not my original idea)

Now when you throw, you will throw from that precise spot and the knot will help prevent premature slippage. One guy showed me how he had put a plastic bead on the line that would stop at the knot, giving a better 'grip'.


Over the next few dozen throws you will have a clear sense of whether that's the right spot or not. If it feels good, you're good. If not, you're either too long or too short and you loosen and adjust the knot up or down.

It gives you point of reference, a consistent place, rather than just gripping the line wherever. This will knock out an unknown variable and get you on a better track to consistent throws.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Now tie a simple overhand knot to mark that exact position.



What I used to do is smudge that area of the line and put a slip-knot in it there to throw with, then you eliminate the infinitesimal chance of the little overhand from getting caught in a crotch (happens, personal experiance).


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## moss (Jan 8, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> As long as it's strong enough to haul up an occasional Husky 395 or a reel of 3/8" cable and cabling gear I'm good with it.



Easily. Would be interesting to do a pull test on it, it's very strong.
-moss


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## treejock1 (Jan 9, 2010)

DK_stihl said:


> Throwbags work the best for me when fired from my BIG SHOT! I love that thing! Everyone should have one.



I love mine. Oh fyi-when launching eggs with it make sure egg is on end in the pocket, not on it's side-euwww!!!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 9, 2010)

:greenchainsaw::hmm3grin2orange::biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Bermie (Jan 9, 2010)

Well, the little loopies are now on the ends of my rope...looks smart, why didn't I do this sooner?
Been raining all day so no throwbaggin'.....


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 10, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> ...there's a very large emotional rift, between nailing your shot and not. Maybe some of you will agree.
> Aceing the throw= joy and elation. Life is good.
> Getting it on the second shot= ahhh, I see what I did wrong on the first shot.
> Got it on the third shot=About frickin time.
> ...



:agree2: Yes, he is!!! LOL ... But, SOOO TRUE!!!  I'd rep that if I could.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 10, 2010)

*Alternative (experimental) Throwbag Connection*



John Paul Sanborn said:


> ...
> put a *slip-knot *in it there to throw with, then you eliminate the infinitesimal chance of the little overhand *from getting caught in a crotch*
> ...



:agree2:

I've always liked a slip-knot like JPS recommends. But, I'm trying to take it a step further. After a bad shot (and during practice) to speed up pulling the line back, I've found it faster to remove the bag to assure no hang-up. Clearing a hang-up easily waste much more time than several bad shots. 

But, un-tieing and re-tieing the bag is a waste of time, too. So, I've been trying several ways to speed up connecting the bag, including TM's micro. Here's where I am now (comments & complaints welcome):

I'm using a short segment of throwline with Locking Brummel Eyes at each end. Locking Brummel Eyes are extremely easy to put in Dynaglide. The bag is girthed in one eye and a very small 'dog' snap is girthed in the other eye. The length of the short segment puts the snap at the ideal 'GRIP' location that TM recommends. The snap connects to a Locking Brummel Eye in the main throwline.

So far, it's saving a lot of time and no hang-ups ... yet ...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 11, 2010)

Way cool SingleJack!

I have a question. When you do a BigShot, I assume you'd have to put both the dog snap *and* the bag in the shot pouch together.

How do you manage the length of line in between the shot-bag and the dog connector? Do you wrap it around three fingertips and stuff it in the pouch too?


So, when throwing, you use the dog leash as the gripping point. The length of line between the dog leash and the bag is the kind and ideal length, custom specifically for you.

That is a most excellent setup, sir,


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 11, 2010)

Interesting, though it seems lime some more stuff to get caught in the tree to me.

Where to you hold it for the throw?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 11, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Way cool SingleJack!



THANKS!!! You deserve the credit. I got the idea from a post of yours a while back. Indeed, we all do stand on the shoulders of others to help each other up.



> I have a question. When you do a BigShot, I assume you'd have to put both the dog snap *and* the bag in the shot pouch together.
> 
> How do you manage the length of line in between the shot-bag and the dog connector? Do you wrap it around three fingertips and stuff it in the pouch too?



There's certainly no need for a leader with a BigShot - simply rig another dog connector directly to another shot-bag. 



> So, when throwing, you use the dog leash as the gripping point. The length of line between the dog leash and the bag is the kind and ideal length, custom specifically for you.



Exactly, as you recommended in your post. The location of the snap (i.e., leader length) was experimentally determined to achieve the best balance of height and accuracy.



> That is a most excellent setup, sir,



Thank you for your generous remarks. It is always refreshing to see some civility on AS.

Regards, Jack


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 11, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Interesting, though it seems lime some *more stuff to get caught *in the tree to me.



Actually, almost ALL my hang-ups have come from pulling a shot-bag on the *end *of the throwline *back *through a tree. They wrap around branches, get wedged into crotches ... well, you know. 

So, with this rig, I can remove the shot-bag (snap and leader, too) and retrieve the throwline without anything to get caught. There is that small eye on the end of the throwline which rarely catches anything. But, if it does, it's small and the DynaGlide is plenty strong enough to pull it free.

So then, you might ask, how to isolate a limb without a shot-bag on the end of the throwline? Girth one in the middle. It's soooo very much easier to free a caught shot-bag and isolate a limb when you can pull it both ways. But, that might be off-topic.



> *Where to you hold *it for the throw?



I hold the snap ... so, no need to tie & un-tie bag or grip knots. The location of the snap (i.e., leader length) was experimentally determined to achieve the best balance of height and accuracy.

Regards, Jack


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## Bermie (Jan 11, 2010)

Well I went outside today to have a bit of a practice...did not go particularly well...I really think my problem is timing the release, I go short or high.

Rain stopped, sun came out, not too windy....but THEN the wind switched to the NW and is now blowing 45kn gusting to 60...I was going ashore later...not now! have to miss two meetings, so here I am twiddling away on AS....:help:


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## pdqdl (Jan 12, 2010)

Try the two handed toss:

1. pull a spare loop through the ring on your throwball.
2. Grab the loop with one hand, the single line with the other.
3. Swing the pendulum with both hands,...toss! I find that the two handed toss ALWAYS goes exactly where I aim it; I only need to worry about the altitude of my toss.

I can't hit diddly tossing with only one hand. I am so bad at one handed throwing, the entire tree is safe. But then again, my throwing hand only has three fingers...Oh heck! _I couldn't throw worth a hoot when I had all five, either. _

[side story: I was filling in on another team for intramural college softball _(many years ago)_. They stuck me in right field, figuring that was the safest place to hide the new guy. A line drive and a man on 3rd base running for home! _I KNEW I couldn't throw that far, but I flung it as far as I could anyway._ It landed in the infield about 20-30 feet short of the catcher, bounced once, he caught it perfectly and tagged the runner out. Everybody raved about my perfect bounce-throw...I never told them that I couldn't get it there without the bounce...]


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2010)

...and  he's..... OUTTA THERE!


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## treejock1 (Jan 12, 2010)

Why use snaps? Tie a loop on the end of line, put loop through ring and around bag and wallah! You can now attach or remove bag without untieing anything and you can attach rope in same manner


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## Bermie (Jan 12, 2010)

Yes, I've tried the two hand, cradle throw too...I guess I just have to accept the fact that I...throw like a...'gasp'...GIRL!!!

I'll get it one day...thanks for all the tips and comiserations! (yes, go get your dictionary...)


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## JeffL (Jan 12, 2010)

I just put a bowline at the end of the line, and connect the bag with those cheapo $.99 biners you can pick up at walmart. Dont use the REALLY tiny ones, seems like the gates arent heavy enough and will clip themselves onto stuff a little too easy.

Bad shot, I just slide the bag to the ground, unclip, pull the line back through, snap the bag back on and go for it again, done.

Plus the length of the bowline is just right that I can girth hitch it onto the spliced eye of my rope, and have a very seamless connection that makes pulling the line/rope through tight crotches fairly easy.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 12, 2010)

treejock1 said:


> Why use snaps? *Tie a loop on the end of line, put loop* through ring and around bag and wallah! You can now attach or remove bag without untieing anything and you can attach rope in same manner





John Paul Sanborn said:


> What I used to do is smudge that area of the line and put a slip-knot in it there to throw with, then you *eliminate the infinitesimal chance of the little overhand from getting caught in a crotch (happens, personal experiance).*



Knots get caught more than spliced eyes? 
Bowline is the smallest *tied *loop - Brummel eye is much smaller.
The snap replaces the 'grip knot' - makes for a very reliable & repeatable grip.
*I agree with TM that the quality of the grip is directly related to the quality of the shot.*

... just trying to reduce the _"*chance *of ... getting caught in a crotch (happens, personal experiance)"_


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2010)

Bermie, I think back to the days when I twisted an eye bolt into a baseball
with the bright idea
that,
let's just say trials and tribulations have been paid. 








I remember when there was only 3 mm polypropylene 'slickline' available. Then the spectra era.......
So crude and rudimentary






Then the BigShot was invented. The arborist world changes forever

THEN Zing-It was invented

and BAM!


The playing field is leveled. A dependable and well-behaved line. A giant slingshot There was the 2.2 mm era when I just thought it was such an improvement over the crap line(s) I'd been using for so many years of the early nineties. Then FlingIt comes along in this excellent ORANGE 2.2 mm, I am thinking this is the greatest improvement in line, wow, what a significant step up. A manly freakin-duty line, thousands of shots and throws on 2.2 mm Dyneema.
Then going back to spectra for a spell to see if I was maybe underappreciating it,






then (and this is about 5 years ago) I finally got around to trying 1.75 mm Zing-It Dyneema and _* and yet another bump in performance. I've tried different lines, side by side, sometimes on the same reel.
*_,




Bermie, I could go the rest of my career on *1.75 mm Dyneema line,* I love it so. I like to throw now and then, for sentimental reasons, the bigger 2.2 mm. I remember the things I liked about it, but the thinner 1.75 at 400 pound tensile, Bermie, I just summed the last 16 years in the trenches to bring you this distilled crystallized nugget of information vital to purest essence of who we are as treecare professionals, I bring you.......

What was the question?


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## Tree Machine (Jan 12, 2010)

My very first BigShot and that horrible line we used back then.


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## Bermie (Jan 13, 2010)

Ha ha TM, very good!!

There was really no question, just my miseries! And a subtle hint for HELP!

I reckon everyone has had one of those outcomes in your first picture...I know I have.
I almost don't like to admit it, bit I am still using polypro line...its what someone here had some of when I first started, and there's not convenient shop around to go get something different...however i'll take your advice and put the 1.75 Dyneema on my shopping list, to go with spare silky blades, some RMC chain, a new wirecore...


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## pdqdl (Jan 13, 2010)

There is a downside to the neat, slick, super strong Dyneema line: it is very easy to cut into your hands, due to it's smaller diameter.

It is almost mandatory to wrap it around a stick to pull hard on it. Damage to your hands is definitely a concern.


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## Bermie (Jan 13, 2010)

Point taken...thanks


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 14, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> It is almost mandatory to wrap it around a stick to pull hard on it. Damage to your hands is definitely a concern.



Since we have an abundance of carabiners, take a few wraps on one of those. They are much easier to hang onto, and you can clip it to a beltloop, or even a t-shirt.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 14, 2010)

I wouldn't think of pulling a shotline without grippy gloves. It speeds things up and increases dexterity and improves fine grip. They climb well They seem to be made to go along with shotline and 11 mm rope. Speeds things up.

I can pull a line bare-handed, but it's no fun.


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## pdqdl (Jan 14, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> ... and increases dexterity and improves fine grip.



You must have some really blunt, over-worked fingers. NOTHING improves my dexterity and fine grip except loosing all gloves and going naked...










Finger tips, at the very least!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 15, 2010)

My fingers are a wreck from what little time I don't wear them. I don't hesitate to wrap a shotline around my gloved hand a couple times for that apex moment of up and over. I wouldn't really want to do that bare-handed.

Having grippy gloves is like cheating, but I'll take an advantage anywhere I can can get it. It makes a really big difference in speed pulling shotline and you can get them here.


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## outofmytree (Jan 16, 2010)

Yeah Im a fan of rubber faced cotton gloves. So is my wife. Hmmm. Somehow that reads a little different to what I had in mind.......


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## climber338 (Jan 16, 2010)

all you need to make sure of is that those gloves are tight fitting or else things get sloppy. i got a pair that were a weeee bit to big and ended up throwing them out of the tree.


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## tree MDS (Jan 16, 2010)

I tried those gloves... I couldn't stand the smell or rubber lingering with me in the tree for some reason. Maybe this wears off after a while??


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## lync (Jan 16, 2010)

What a great thread, my 2 cents. Using zing it I tie the throwline to the bag with a round turn and 1 slip half hitch. Once you set the knot it won't come out, but you pull the short tail and it comes right out. Quick and more streamlined than a mini beaner. I like the harrison rocket bag with the small chrome ring, the small ring is less likely to hang up.


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## Bermie (Jan 16, 2010)

Yes I like a harrison rocket too, but I lost mine, put it down somewhere...you know how it goes


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## pdqdl (Jan 17, 2010)

lync said:


> What a great thread, my 2 cents. Using zing it I tie the throwline to the bag with a round turn and 1 slip half hitch. Once you set the knot it won't come out, but you pull the short tail and it comes right out. Quick and more streamlined than a mini beaner. ...



Yep! I tie mine every time, in a similar fashion.

I am going to check out the tied loop or perhaps a spliced loop for even quicker attachment, as described somewhere above. (I don't know if my throw line can be spliced. I'll need to get out the reading glasses before I can find out.)


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 17, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Yep! I tie mine every time, in a similar fashion.
> 
> I am going to check out the tied loop or *perhaps a spliced loop *for even quicker attachment, as described somewhere above. (*I don't know if my throw line can be spliced. * I'll need to get out the reading glasses before I can find out.)



*'Spliced' eyes in throwline - Locking Brummels with burried ends:
1/2" XTC FIRE (left, just for scale) - DYNAGLIDE (center) - FLING-IT (right)*


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## pdqdl (Jan 17, 2010)

Beautiful picture SJ! 

Wouldn't you want your loop to be big enough to go over the end of the throw bag?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 17, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Beautiful picture SJ!
> 
> Wouldn't you want your loop to be big enough to go over the end of the throw bag?



Well, sure - you can do that but I'm doing something a little different ... which has greatly improved my speed and accuracy at setting a line.

I'm still "tweaking" the setup but check out this earlier post from this thread (+ a few follow-on posts):

*Throwbag nightmare - Post 95*


SINGLE-JACK said:


> :agree2:
> 
> I've always liked a slip-knot like JPS recommends. But, I'm trying to take it a step further. After a bad shot (and during practice) to speed up pulling the line back, I've found it faster to remove the bag to assure no hang-up. Clearing a hang-up easily waste much more time than several bad shots.
> 
> ...



*Throwbag nightmare - Post 98*
... location of the snap ... to achieve the best balance of height and accuracy.

*Throwbag nightmare - Post 99*
... how to isolate a limb without a shot-bag on the end of the throwline?

*Throwbag nightmare - Post 106*
... quality of the grip is directly related to the quality of the shot.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 20, 2010)

Very cool, Single-Jack.

Has anyone spliced a short length of 2.2 mm to a long length of 1.75 mm?

You would hold the 2.2 right where it transitions to the smaller stuff. Better barehand grip on the larger stuff.



What's it going to take to get Bermie throwing like a champ?

I think there has been progress made on the overall management of the shotline, which is a large time portion of the overall process (the throw itself being just a few blinks).


The faster you can deal with your line, the faster the whole process goes, even with missed shots. Grippy gloves, fast. Clipping on fast. Being able to abort an off-shot, now that's another time saver, but it takes reflexes and real timing.



tree mds said:


> I tried those gloves... I couldn't stand the smell or rubber lingering with me in the tree for some reason. Maybe this wears off after a while??


The Atlas gloves have that smell. So do winter weight gloves. The lightweight, 3-season smurfies, they don't have that smell, thankfully.


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## moss (Jan 20, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Very cool, Single-Jack.
> 
> Has anyone spliced a short length of 2.2 mm to a long length of 1.75 mm?
> 
> You would hold the 2.2 right where it transitions to the smaller stuff. Better barehand grip on the larger stuff.



I have 100 ft. of 1.75 tied to 2.2mm for a different reason, the lighter line in front allows a higher max throw, the thicker line is easier to handle and manage working the throwbag in the tree. I didn't splice them, just two bowlines, one capturing the loop on the other. It never gets tangled or hung, I have no idea why, you'd think it would.
-moss


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## pdqdl (Jan 20, 2010)

Sheet bend! 

Use the thinner line on the tucked under leg. Smaller knot, just as strong, it is essentially the same thing as a bowline. One knot instead of two.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 21, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> ...
> What's it going to take to get *Bermie throwing like a champ*?
> ...



Bermie -

OK! ... I'll give it my best shot (excuse the pun) and pass on some advice I was given, long ago. It was on a different subject but translates well. 
A lot of what follows has already been said, so consider any redundancy as: :agree2:

It takes three things to hit your target with a throwbag:
1. Consistency
2. Focus
3. Practice; 4. Practice; 5. Practice; … 6. PRACTICE!
... & I’ll add; 7. LUCK – ain’t nothin’ like luck!

*Consistency* = MINIMIZE variables; you can’t control your target, wind, terrain, obstructions, distractions, etc. - but you CAN:
-	Always use the same weight – find one that works best and buy spares.
-	Always use the same line – the best, DynaGlide 1.8mm
-	Always grip the same way – knot, placement, finger positions, no glove
-	Always use the same stance – do your best to get the same footing
-	Always swing the same way – same number of times, speed, height, etc.
-	Always release the same way – relax the grip identically every throw

*Focus* = Keep your eyes on the target. This is the most important part of hitting any target. There’s some folklore about the famous baseball player, Ted Williams. The story goes; hi-speed photography attributed his success to his eyes being focused on the ball when it hit the bat. No one else did that. He didn’t believe it, but that’s the legend …

Remember, your target is NOT the branch. Focus your eyes, intently, on *the target: that space above the branch.* Also, practice your swing so that you can just peripherally see the throwbag at the stop of each swing. Don’t look at the throwbag – look at the target.

* Practice; Practice; Practice; … PRACTICE!*
How hard to swing? When to release? That’s what practice is for. You have to build the “muscle memory” by making shots over and over and over ‘til you KNOW; how hard to swing & when to release.

Now if all that fails you can cheat: If you got the line on any branch above the desired branch, you can use limb isolation tricks to get your line exactly where you want it. But, that’s a whole different thread 

Well, that’s all I got – hope it helps. GOOD LUCK!

Comments, Corrections, Complaints ... WELCOME!


-Jack


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## Tree Machine (Jan 22, 2010)

Yea, yea, well-said. Bermie, memorize all that, you will be quizzed on it every time you pick up a throwbag.

The eye focussing on the ball hitting the bat. Summarily, that means don't blink at the moment of truth. I learned this from a cat, yes a feline, that taught me a life-changing lesson I use to this day and directly applicable to the issue of focus.

As we all know, cats are like top-dog when it comes to hunting (pun definitely intended). When I was 13 I was playing reflex games with this cat, playing, but playing hard. Hand and wrist vs. cat. Who is faster? Well, the cat, of course, they have this internal instinctual natural ability to be 'on-target'. Early on I was focussing on the *cat* focussing. The intent, the deep, deep attention, pupils dilate, the body readies itself the shot and wham!

All cats are like this, domestic home cats, jaguars, lions. And the one thing I learned from this cat of mine, and have noticed in other cats (like on a National Geographic special) is that right at the moment of pounce, the cat does not blink his eyes. 

The reason it changed my life at age 13 is I was a wrestler in high school. Applying the lesson of the cat, I had an advantage no one else really knew of or understood. By #1 not blinking and #2 knowing when the opponent _would_ blink changed my competitive advantage in a most remarkable way. The most critical action takes place in the fraction of a second. The rest is prep and finish. During that critical fraction of a second be aware of where your eyes are, where your target is (the area above the limb) and where that bag is going to go.

During that critical fraction of a second involving the final flick and release, do not blink.


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## pdqdl (Jan 22, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> ....
> 
> As we all know, cats are like top-dog when it comes to hunting (pun definitely intended).



Notwithstanding your worthy comments on staying focused...cats aren't any faster than other predators. They do have the quickest paws, but that pales by comparison with the overall biting speed of canines (notwithstanding how fast cheetahs run). And the top predator of this world (apart from man) swims for dinner, has bat-like echo location skills, and readily eats ANYTHING it wants and can get to: KILLER WHALES.

NOTHING compares to bats for speed and agility (while in the air). Even the predatory birds that regularly eat bats for dinner must catch them out in open spaces.

The most vicious, voracious predator of the warm blooded variety: the shrew. They eat their own weight every day, and tackle animals much larger than themselves.

Hardest working predator of ALL creatures: the hummingbird! (You didn't really think they lived on just sugar water did you?)










Sorry about that...it's friday night, and I am relaxing. This thread has been pretty much beat to death anyway.


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## outofmytree (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes grasshopper, to be focussed and fast you must channel the spirit of the deadly shrew. 

Somehow doesn't have the right ring to it.


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 23, 2010)

In the winter a hardwood tree is about 90 % open space, but I manage to hit branches ( often the same one) on the upward flight about 4 out of 5 trys. The shotbag can really bounce off in an unexpected direction when that happens. People have learned to grab their hardhats when I get out the throwlines.


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## Bermie (Jan 23, 2010)

I, Grasshopper, will take to heart all wise counsel so dispersed by my mentors and masters...to focus, to not blink, to SEE the bag fly true to the target, and when success has been obtained, pause and thank the AS fountains of wisdom for my newfound skill and confidence.

The masses will cheer, the pets will be realeased from shelter, light may enter houses as protective shutters come down, and many a sweaty head will be relieved of the need for a hard hat in my presence...

Ha, for real guys, thanks for all the great tips...it will hearten you to know I nailed a throw on Thursday, first time, with the HO watching...mind you it was only about 12' up...small steps, small steps...

Have one on me everyone...


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## treejock1 (Jan 27, 2010)

Omg is this the oldest thread on here?


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## Bermie (Jan 27, 2010)

treejock1 said:


> Omg is this the oldest thread on here?



Ha, ha...certainly has a charmed life doesn't it! Oldest active at the moment...the regulatory thread must be pretty old too...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 27, 2010)

We're just getting warmed up.


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## Adkpk (Jan 28, 2010)

Throw-bagging is the unsung hero or as it may be, the unsung pita. More of the trials and tribulations should be discussed here.


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## Adkpk (Jan 28, 2010)

moss said:


> It never gets tangled or hung, I have no idea why, you'd think it would.
> -moss



I've seen you throwbag, you have a lot of patients. 


Single Jack, did you splice the throwlines yourself?:jawdrop:


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## Tree Machine (Jan 28, 2010)

Adkpk said:


> More of the trials and tribulations should be discussed here.



Here's a once-in-a-lifer. Both parts broke in the same instant.








moss said:


> It never gets tangled or hung, I have no idea why, you'd think it would.
> -moss



I have to agree 100% here. In the last ten years I have had ONE mini biner get hung up. The shotbag was being pulled out, it was dropping and hit a gutter. The bag went in the gutter and the biner hit the gutter, wire gate opened and clamped the gutter. I celebrated the moment because it was a one-in-a-million and I knew I'd probably never see that again.

As moss says, it never gets tangled or hung. You would think it would. The mini biner will always get through, but the bag is bigger. Hang-ups are more often because the line either wraps multiple times around something, or over a limb and the line wraps around it's own self more than once. Experience with this kinda thing is the only way to learn how to prevent it the next time, not doing again what it took to do it this time.


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## outofmytree (Jan 28, 2010)

I was thinking about this thread when throwing into a dead wooding job yestreday. 31 minutes to set my climbing line.  I was obviously NOT channeling the mighty shrew!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 28, 2010)

That's painful, outofmytree. Yesterday I set three ropes in under ten minutes, same crown, for the tree I'm heading to this morning. Two were throws, one a bigshot. I do this on wide spreading crowns to facilitate aerial traverses.

I had a realization on how I hope I can help the frustrated throwers. I'll try, but I need to take a couple pictures today.

Throwing should be happiness, not hassle.

May the shrew be with you.


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## outofmytree (Jan 28, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> That's painful, outofmytree. Yesterday I set three ropes in under ten minutes, same crown, for the tree I'm heading to this morning. Two were throws, one a bigshot. I do this on wide spreading crowns to facilitate aerial traverses.
> 
> I had a realization on how I hope I can help the frustrated throwers. I'll try, but I need to take a couple pictures today.
> 
> ...



Oh piss off!


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## RAG66 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi guys I'm new here and I love this thread. I do have a big shot and bag, I don't seem to get the chance to use it much because most of my work is removal. The frustration of a clean shot is real but I'm finding with practice I'm doing OK. Some of the stories are great.


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## Golf (Jan 28, 2010)

When I started to use the throw ball a few years back, I often cursed then took out the extension ladder and a 3-piece pruner to install my rope. I could get that rope in the crotch in less than 10 minutes. I practiced the throw ball when ever I can and now I am proficient at it. The only time I would have problems is when there is a lot of water sprouts on the tree. As Single Jack had said before, practice, practice and always keep your eyes on the target.


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## tree md (Jan 28, 2010)

The throwbag was one of the first tools I was introduced to when I started climbing. Always loved it for the time it saves. One of my favorite tools.

However, when I am good, I am really good with it and when I am bad I really suck with it.

Nothing will make me start pulling my hair out quicker than when it takes me an hour screwing with a throwbag trying to get a line set in a tree. And yes, I have spent an hour doing so before. When you look up and see guys standing around watching you struggle with the throwline and realize the clock is ticking it is an infuriating feeling!

I have one rule on my crew: No one touches my throwlines and ropes but me!

I put a kid to work a couple of years ago and he had the opposite of the Midas touch. In other words everything he touched turned to ####! I don't know if he was on dope or what but he had every rope and throwline I owned in tangles and it literally took me three hours longer to accomplish the job than it would have if the kid had not been there.

I had 5 or 6 trees to prune including a very large Red Oak that I absolutely had to have a thowline to get into the tree. The kid kept screwing with my ropes and had them in knots every time I turned around. He even managed to take a strap off of one of my rope bags and lost a strap to the leg scabbard for my handsaw. And this was on his first day!

By the time I got to the big Red Oak I had smoke coming out of my ears. I took a couple of shots trying to get my line in the tree and got distracted by another crew member for a second. By the time I turned back around the kid had "helped" me gather up my loose throwline. I don't know how he did it but in the minute I was distracted the kid had my line so screwed up that it literally took me two hours to get it untangled. I have never before or since took so much time out of a job to mess with a line. I had to let him go after that day. I felt bad for the kid but it was better for my sanity to let him go. He just fiddled with stuff to no end! I told him that I didn't know what he was on but he needed to get off of the stuff before he got himself as jammed up as he had my throwline...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 28, 2010)

TreeMD said:


> I put a kid to work a couple of years ago and he had the opposite of the Midas touch


 That's called the Dumas touch.

TreeMD, _that_ is a great trial and tribulation story. As for the guy you let go, why did he come to Indianapolis and how did he find me? 

I have the same rule, don't mess with ropes, don't mess with shotline. That's actually pretty liberating for the ground help, one less thing to be responsible for. Besides, I really, really, really enjoy the whole shotline thing and I think the fellow friends out there who are having problems, I think we can turn that around, I really do.

Golf, you're fairly new here. Thanks for your input.

RAG66, first post. Welcome to the forum, good to have you, make yourself at home.



outofmytree said:


> Oh piss off!


 Ahhh, a verbal Aussie hug.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 28, 2010)

I came across this image, dated 2001. Crap bags as I remember. Stiff . Before I discovered the Harrison Rocket.

A couple inches to the left and it would have probably been OK. I had to climb to get this one back.

(note: always have a second, backup bag and line setup so you don't really have to break stride in an instance such as this.)


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## Tree Machine (Jan 30, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> That's painful, outofmytree. Yesterday I set three ropes in under ten minutes, same crown, for the tree I'm heading to this morning.



Here's the tree, and the short story behind the story.

We'd pruned an adjacent backyard tree, got it all cleaned up, everything put back in place, power blown, fence panel put back up, and then the homewowner, very happy with the whole process asked me to do the _other_ backyard tree.

The next morning it was going to be 9 degrees F. (-13 C) and I saw rope setting with an employee hanging out as potentially, really painful. Set the ropes now to facilitate a quick start in the morning.






So right around dusk I started to set the ropes. Homeowner watching, the first set took a few throws. Actually, I had it on the second throw, but it went over a small branch above the target crotch and there was the decision, to twiddle the shotbag over the little branch and hope it drops through the crotch, or pull the rope up and see if you can get the little branch to break, dropping the rope in. I chose to wiggle the bag over, but as the moment would have it, the bag dropped onto and sat right _in the fork_. This is painful. You're right there, but there's nothing you can do but pull it back down and throw again. That was the left rope in the pic, 11.5 mm Tachyon.

The middle rope was nailed on the second throw, 11 mm KMIII.

The third, the homeowner was doubting. I pointed to a really high crotch in the section of the tree adjacent to the power lines. I went and got the bigshot. I explained that I needed to overshoot the fork, but stop the bag before it went out over the power lines. Timing was so very critical because if the bag went too far and I put a stop to it, it could swing back down over the power lines down lower and and do a multi-wind around the upper line(s). Too soon and the bag's travel could be aborted and the shot missed. This shot was a beauty. In the critical moment I stepped on the reel and stepped off in the same second, stopping further travel and sending the bag to the ground. I got to do the 'stir the kettle' dance with the bigshot pole with the white dude's overbite with an 'Uh huh.....uh huh..... uh huh-uh huh'. I added some ballast, pulled the weight back up and got the line traced down, parallel.

It's hard not to be happy. This was an 85-foot shot as my 150-foot rope hung fully up in the air. I used that rope to pull a 200' 13 mm Stable Braid back up and over, not the funnest rope to climb on but zero stretch, for sure, which I like.


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## Adkpk (Jan 30, 2010)

Lot of big wood in that tree. Good example of a tree that needs to have multiple lines set.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 30, 2010)

Lots of obstacles below, hot tub, porch, a couple river birches, fence on one side, power lines on the other. Good, clean fun. None of the cuts were big, but almost everything had to be lowered on rope. Smartest thing I did was lower on a rope with eye terminations at each end, then use each end alternatively.



It occurred to me that I throw two different ways, depending. If its a low throw, pulling a hanger or rigging a limb from the ground, I just throw it one-handed, gripping the line and sending it on its way, one hand doing it all, bag swinging to the right side of my body. This is how I throw when accuracy and height are not big factors.

I used to do the cradle throw, a cool method, but I had two hands in on the throw, and each had to be released at exactly identical times, with great precision and exactness. The bag swings between the legs, both hands throw, both hands release. More variables, but you can get great height, I had problems with accuracy.

I've tried these different throws, with different bags, gloves on, gloves off, 2.2 mm, 1.75, every different line I can buy. 





Only recently did I realize that how I throw currently has given the best results. I morphed into this somewhere along the line and it works really well for the higher throws where accuracy is critical important. How to describe,..... its a two-handed throw where one hand is doing the throw but the hand not doing the throw is doing the release. It can be an off-to-the-side throw or a between-the-legs throw, either way seems to work well, but I tend to do between the legs, the center line keeps my throw, well, centered.

Does this make any sense?


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## Dutch295 (Jan 30, 2010)

Icy nasty morning here in Carolina... I've enjoyed reading this post. It's nice to know I'm not the only one that has experienced a lot of frustration when it comes to setting a throw line but still, what an invaluable tool.

Bermie, the picture attached has really worked well for me. Not sure of the proper terminology but it's basically a double slip knot or slip knot with a second bite. The bag on the left is dressed and ready to go and the one on the right is a very loose starting point. The long running end and the large bite is for picture purposes only. I've never had a bag come off since switching to this and if I miss it's as simple as pulling the running end, removing the bag and not taking a chance of getting the bag caught as I pull the line back (it's easy to get a little lazy and just pull the bag back through the tree... this can be a bad idea). 

To all the guys using biners and small snap combos: Don't you give up quite a bit on height capability due to the added weight / does the combo "fly" as well? Just curious as I've never tried it.


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## tree md (Jan 30, 2010)

Yeah, this is a great thread. I have seen a lot of new tricks I'll be incorporating into my throwline technique here.

TM, Nice work! I will often set my lines the evening (if I have time) before I do the job as well to keep my frustration level down and not have guys standing around watching me while they are on the clock. It's actually relaxing and fun for me when I am not pressured by time and worried about labor costs. I like to have all the time I need with no pressure. I do usually bring my main rope hand with me because he likes to hang with me (and vice versa). Lol, he told me a couple of months ago that I should have been a cowboy. I winked at him and told him that I am a cowboy! 

Thanks to all who have posted pics. Very informative!


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## Adkpk (Jan 30, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Does this make any sense?



None what-so-ever.


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## outofmytree (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks for the stories and pictures TM. Glad you understand Aus love!


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## Tree Machine (Jan 31, 2010)

And I love the Aussies!

And thanks to everyone who's contributing. Its keeping this thread very lively.
11 pages and no flaming, no derails, this HAS to be an Arboristsite record, ha ha.

Personally, I think it all revolves around some mutual, global admiration for Bermie.  :love1: 


At the core of it all, we all seem to be in agreement with one thing; The throwline is a very valuable tool. And that the throwline can be an intensely frustrating tool. It can be the spearhead of a good, money-making day, or it can make the money clock tick backwards as your crew smokes cigarettes and waits for you to get done flailing with your little line.

I think it's clear that there's a big gap of how the throwline can either be a nightmare, or the cause for joy. 

And the bottom line here is that inefficiency will cost you. _We don't get paid to set lines_, however, so much revolves around it. We get paid to do tree care, so the more swiftly we can get up there, the better we can make a living. I know this is a really obvious statement, but time is money.

It doesn't make sense for me to feel your pain, but I do. I've been in these dark moments where I think about getting a ladder, or worse, advancing the line with a monkey fist. Some might even climb that pruning job with spikes. 

Outofmytree, your half hour setting the rope, that hurt 
TreeMD, throw after throw with the crew watching, ouch!
Bermie, thunking peoples' roofs, asassinating low-flying seagulls, sending the crew scattering to the safety of the truck, freaking out the locals living nearby..... I both weep and giggle at the same time.

The throwline is not an ancient art. In fact, its relatively new. Yea, some guy in the 1930s or whenever probably attached a crescent wrench to some sisal cord and threw it up over a limb, but it was anything but mainstream, kinda like there were computers in the 60's but none in OUR hands until the 80s. Then advances in software, the personal computer and the world wide web and now our children are teaching us. The playing field has been leveled.

Accurate, consistent throwline work, before the advent of dyneema, and before decent shotbags and before the BigShot kept the user limited by virtue of the limitations imposed by the gear and we could only advance up to a point. This is all only about ten years old as of this writing. Bigshot invented 1998, Dyneema/ZingIt/FlingIt some time there after. The new shotline winder. The playing field has been leveled.

These days with the high-tech, high-strength shotlines, great bags, the shotline winder reel for unparalleled line management and the BigShot, we are now in an age where the gap between agony and extacy can be closed. The gear is great. ALL of you can be consistent, high-accuracy, professional line setters. This is true because you can get the modern gear and you believe *you* _can_ excel at it. If you're having problems, its just because you're at a crux stage, a hump, that once you're over, your throwline experience will be forever changed for the better.

Then, I will feel your joy, not your pain. We can think of this as the tide that raises all boats.




Ummm, what was the question again?


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## Tree Machine (Jan 31, 2010)

Oh yea, Dutch, asking about the effect of the mini biner/snap on the throw and Adkpk on the Tree Machine method of release.


I need to go outside and take a couple pictures, I think they'll help. 

Also, I need to search out an exact weight on the mini biner to see what exactly a 12 oz shotbag actually weighs, since the two are thrown together as one.


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## Bermie (Jan 31, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> And I love the Aussies!
> 
> And thanks to everyone who's contributing. Its keeping this thread very lively.
> 11 pages and no flaming, no derails, this HAS to be an Arboristsite record, ha ha.
> ...



Awww...give over!:blush:

I'm glad we're all discussing the realities...some people are having difficulties, and some are good at it, and everyone is sharing good stuff!
Carry on troopsopcorn:


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## Tree Machine (Jan 31, 2010)

Your wish is my command, Ms. Bermie.

Here's a picture of how I do my throws. I don't know when I started this, and it took 10 pages of this thread for me to really realize what I'm doing. 
This is how it looks. In the last dozen shotline threads over the years, and through the different arborist forums, I have never shown this.






I think it works well because release precision doesn't have to be so exact and immediate and perfect. With this style throw I believe you have some fraction of a second wiggle room for release. I think this is true because if you think about it, your throw hand isn't gripping the line, it's just feeling the pressure of the line. Your finger grip of the other hand doesn't need to be as tight as the traditional one-hand throw because the line draping _over_ the throw hand has picked up a moderate amount of friction, lessening the pull force and grip pressure necessary of your release hand.

I tend to rock the bag back and forth a few times to get the 'feel'. Initially I look at my hand, the swinging bag and that the swing is in direct line with the target.

Feet a little wider than shoulder-width.

Then I look up at the target, the bag still swinging. I slide my throw hand down or up to sense the length of the 'pendulum', longer length for longer, more forceful throws, shorter pendulum length for shorter throws. 

I rock both hands in unison. The movement of the hands, though, is very minimal. The pendulum swing both smooth and gentle.

The throw hand doesn't actually grip the line, ever. My thumb may come down on it, but that's probably remnants of old habits, there's no actual gripping of the line by the throw hand.

Then I muster the concentration of the cat, summon forth my inner shrew,

when you let 'er rip, the relief of line pressure from your throwing (front) hand is signal for the release of the line by the fingers of the back hand. This is where you get the fraction of a second grace period.

and WHAM! Drain that sucker!


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## tree md (Jan 31, 2010)

I use the same throw style as you TM. 

I make sure the area is clear and that there is nothing for my line to snag on (like a twig or my foot), throw with my right hand and use my left hand as a break. Using one hand for a break works well to abort bad throws and saves time in not having to pull your line back through the tree on a bad throw. I will also use my offhand as a break when I need to stop short, like when there are lines on the other side of the tree or I am trying to hit one isolated branch.

I never shoot a line with the big shot when there is the possibility that I may overshoot a power line on the other side of the tree but if the crotch I am trying to hit is low enough I will do it with a throw as I can use my breaking hand to stop short of the line. If there is a danger of overshooting a power line I simply set the line with a safe throw into a lower crotch and advance my rope once I'm in the tree.

I like to hit isolated dead limbs using the breaking method and yank them out of the tree. I do this a lot when I have dead tips that would be time consuming to prune and are too slim to really get out on. I do a lot on trees that I haven't been paid for but look unsightly. People notice and appreciate the little extra effort. Plus it is excellent practice on throwing technique.


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## Tree Machine (Jan 31, 2010)

EXCELLENT POST, MD!

Aborting a clearly bad throw is essential, otherwise you're letting a clearly bad throw go the distance and then you have to retrieve that full distance to get back to square one.

The second, back release hand can form a ring around the line at release, by touching your finger tip to your thumb tip. The other three fingers clamp to stop the rope. This I seem to use only on short throws. You can get off three or four attempts in 30 seconds by aborting/pulling the bag back your direction, re-throw. This is classic 'pull out hanging limbs' method.


Thanks, TreeMD. I don't feel alone.


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## tree md (Jan 31, 2010)

My next experiment is going to be with an old 30# recurve bow. I plan to start playing with it and seeing how well I can shoot a line into a tree as soon as the snow melts here... Great archery practice as well as shotline practice...


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## Adkpk (Jan 31, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Personally, I think it all revolves around some mutual, global admiration for Bermie.  :love1:



Isn't she something!

So you hold the throw line the whole time it's flying? I do that in the tree using the bag to reset the line but never on the ground. Although I will give it a try. 







I will add that this thread has gone rather well. And also was thinking about the time it got started why there wasn't more thread's on the all-to-famous throw bag and line. It sure can use a lot of my time when I'm trying to set a line.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 1, 2010)

adkpk said:


> So you hold the throw line the whole time it's flying?


*Only on short throws*, like when pulling low hangers, or when rigging a single limb, like a long dead one where you want it chokered toward the center or tip, rather than nearby where you'll cut. On these limb-rigging throws, they're generally really easy throws and the 'brake' is to redirection the arc back toward you, and maybe to slow the bag right before it reaches your hand. That way you may not have to take a single step to throw, retrieve, clip on rope, pull up and over, clip rope back to itself, pull til it chokers, done. That whole procedure can take as much time as it took you to read this paragraph.

If its a long throw (or bigshot) and I need to brake, I'll step lightly on the shotline winder. Long throws (or shots), I just keep my hands away.




adkpk said:


> I will add that this thread has gone rather well. And also was thinking about the time it got started why there wasn't more thread's on the all-too-famous throw bag and line. It sure can use a lot of my time when I'm trying to set a line.



Like anything in life, as the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a shrew.

As far as professional shrew skinners goes, there's the one who pretty much has skinned shrews the same way as when he started. Then there's the shrew skinning technician who through his career has tried hundreds of different ways to skin a shrew, many failures, but along the way has picked up the finer nuances, added the tricks and methods to his bag and through his constant belief that the shrew can be skinned faster and more accurately he can now skin three shrews every ten minutes where it takes other shrew skinners anywhere from 31 minutes to an hour to skin a single shrew.

So, if you're getting serious about skinning shrews, I might suggest you go to critterskinners.com, a forum dedicated to the practice, and quite likely you will find a thread..... it could be titled 'Shrew skinning nightmare', or something, and likely you'll hook up with some experienced shrew skinners who will share with you _every one of their secrets_ if you keep asking the right questions.


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## outofmytree (Feb 2, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> *Only on short throws*, like when pulling low hangers, or when rigging a single limb, like a long dead one where you want it chokered toward the center or tip, rather than nearby where you'll cut. On these limb-rigging throws, they're generally really easy throws and the 'brake' is to redirection the arc back toward you, and maybe to slow the bag right before it reaches your hand. That way you may not have to take a single step to throw, retrieve, clip on rope, pull up and over, clip rope back to itself, pull til it chokers, done. That whole procedure can take as much time as it took you to read this paragraph.
> 
> If its a long throw (or bigshot) and I need to brake, I'll step lightly on the shotline winder. Long throws (or shots), I just keep my hands away.
> 
> ...



If only I had some rep to give away right now. On top of the great advice a darn good laugh as well!


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## Bermie (Feb 2, 2010)

Somebody check TM's temperature...he sounds feverish, skinning shrews and such...the lad is rambling!
Maybe one of his throwbags bonked him on the head...:biggrinbounce2:

I'm going to try that two handed stance and see if I can't knock some of them critters in one throw...


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## Tree Machine (Feb 2, 2010)

Can I ask a dumb question?

What is 'rep'?

I've heard that term several times. I'm clueless, but I want to know, just so I can be on the same page as the rest of the community. :help:


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## outofmytree (Feb 2, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


> Can I ask a dumb question?
> 
> What is 'rep'?
> 
> I've heard that term several times. I'm clueless, but I want to know, just so I can be on the same page as the rest of the community. :help:



Assuming for a nanosecond that you arent being funny....

See the lil tree looking thingie underneath my avatar picture? Or scales if you prefer. Click on that. Add some nice comment about how sexy I am and click add to Outofmytrees reputation. Actually the click is optional but you can tell me how sexy I am any time you like.  (Did I just say that?)


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## Tree Machine (Feb 2, 2010)

Thanks, outofmytree. I'm actually not being funny, but just for this nanosecond, and then I gotta go back to being me. I've never clicked on the thingies. I've rolled over the scales and it tells me I must own a Stihl. That's as far as I've ever gone.

Is rep important? Can I give rep like this?
Hey outofmytrees, :yourock: 

Hold on.... I'm dereailing Bermie's thread. This is her nightmare.
She's dreamy. :biggrinbounce2:


Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled program.


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## tree md (Feb 2, 2010)

Had to thread the needle today. I had a little storm work to do. Nothing major, only three large limbs and some debris on the ground to clean up. I had one loose hanger about 40' up in a Pine. Just had maybe a foot window to get between the butt end of the hanger and the limb it was lodged in. I hit a Pine bough above it and use it as a spring board to drop my line in between the butt of the hanger and the limb it was hung in. Took me about 10 minutes. I only charged $25 for it as it is one of my commercial contracts and a good client. I almost felt guilty for charging that much...


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## Tree Machine (Feb 3, 2010)

Threading the needle. Those are the toughest throws. Those and near-verticals.


tree md said:


> Took me about 10 minutes. I only charged $25 for it as it is one of my commercial contracts and a good client. I almost felt guilty for charging that much...


They were probably just really happy to have the professional who could git 'er done.

The 'thread the needle' reminded me of one of those unique instances. Now, this was a long time ago, late 90's, I built my first single handled dual ascender out of two CMI's, just for this job, pulling the pivot pin out of the cam assembly on both and reinserting a double-length rivet pin through both ascenders, and then reinforcing the whole unit with small rivets in the handle. This was before digital cameras so I never got a picture of this set of early duals, other than the one aerial shot of me with no helmet and no backup and not using my flipline (there.... acknowledged, so don't give me crap.) The shots were taken by the Art Center Director. This first shot is the last one taken, but shows clearly where the throw needed to go.

Here's the 'needle'. 






It was an art pole, a telephone pole with this square wooden frame nailed atop. The toss had to go through the wooden frame, and then the rope needed to rest directly on center of the pole. If the rope were to slide to the side, both me and the wooden frame were going down. The 2:1 friction hitch system I was familiar with would mean the rope atop the pole would be in motion, the chance of it sliding off to the side much increased. That's why the dual ascender, no motion of the rope at the tie-in point.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 3, 2010)

In this second picture, the job was near completion. This art pole was covered with delicate pieces, all the way to the top, trinkets and ceramic pieces and whatever else one might call art, covering the pole top to bottom.

My job was to go up top and attach these long, streaming colorful lengths of fabric inside the frame. At the same time I had to not damage any of the pieces adorning the pole on the way up. This required a careful footlock where the toe of one boot was strategically placed in between art pieces to keep the rest of me off the pole, then a careful advance, repeat. Also had to have a critical balance so I didn't swing around right, or left.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 3, 2010)

On this one, the task was completed. The camera person said "Get ready for the final shot."
I asked, "What do you want me to do?"
She said, "Become an opera singer,... at the top of your voice!"






Being all about silly humor, I gladly obliged.


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## tree md (Feb 3, 2010)

Very cool Job!

LOL, your story kind of reminds me of the ladies at the condo complex that I take care of. Two older women are my bosses there. One is the complex manager, the other is the president of the HOA. They are FUNNY! I can do no wrong in these ladies eyes. They used to follow me around with a camera everywhere I went when I first started working there 3 years ago. They have a bulletin board in the office plastered with shots of my mug at work. LOL, they are so easily impressed. They have pics of me doing a Bradford Pear in a really tight spot where I had to rope every piece. It was one of the first jobs I did there and they were just amazed. Super funny to me. I mean it was a lot of rope work but come on, it was a BRADFORD PEAR!!! LOL, I might have been 15 or 20 feet off the ground. Never the less it made some cool pics. 

Anyway, it kind of reminded me of your artist friends. 

Very cool job BTW.That was some serious needle threading! And I dressed like that back in the 90's too. What's a hard hat??? I never saw a climber wear one period back in the 90's.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 4, 2010)

I like that you welcome in an audience. People like to be included sometimes, to be part of it. Even if it's just watching and seeing how their money is being spent. 



tree md said:


> Just had maybe a foot window to get between the butt end of the hanger and the limb it was lodged in. I hit a Pine bough above it and use it as a spring board to drop my line in between the butt of the hanger and the limb it was hung in.



True, an off-shot is not necessarily a bunk shot.

These pics were from yesterday, job finished, I just had to put on a backpack blower and get up on the roof. It took three throws to hit the 'wrong' limb, but I saw a springboard opportunity. The wrong limb was maybe four feet away and a foot lower than my ideal, but it was in direct line, so I went and got the camera.

Now, this was a tough shot, and that was a seriously good pun because I'm talking about the camera. The try was to get a little swing going and at the right moment pull-and-release; the bag goes up, over and away from the wrong limb and ideally back over the ideal limb. At the same time as the pull-and-release with the one hand, I was going to try to shoot the picture with the other. Ready,... and.....




One of the day's little successes.


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## Bermie (Feb 4, 2010)

Oh, STOP it walls...!!!! (any limey's over 35 will know what I mean!)

Translated:
American...get OUTTA here!!!

Bermudian...bye, NO bye!!!! (bye being local lingo...does not mean so long...)


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## Adkpk (Feb 4, 2010)

Tree Machine said:


>



I used this method the other day to get a hanger I left in a hemlock down. 35' up and in a mess of greenery. Three throws and I got'er down. As I said before I have used the two handed extra control method in the tree but not on the ground. This was a perfect application. I was anxious to give it a try and now I will use it more often. Thanks TM. 

I didn't noticed it mentioned yet in this thread but want to say, the new "neoprene" bags are much better design over the leather. Longer lasting and more streamline.


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## Bermie (Feb 6, 2010)

I tried the TM shrew skinning method yesterday...I have to say I think it works!
Both throws went to their intended destinations within 3 tries...granted they were low, but I am sensing an improvement


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## Tree Machine (Feb 6, 2010)




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## Tree Machine (Feb 6, 2010)

Adkpk said:


> Throw-bagging is the unsung hero or as it may be, the unsung pita.


Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a hero.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 11, 2010)

I have another thread-the-needle instance. 

In this first pic you see this ash that had a real bad day. The uppermost crown is out over the center of the street. It is heavily weighted and the rip-out area is barely holding the crown section to the supporting limb.

If the climber were to go out there and do the cut, one thing is sure to happen. A second thing is likely to happen.

Sure to happen, the limb will crash into the street, making a new mess where we had just cleaned up and taking the thousand branches on the limb and smashing them to 10,000 little pieces.

Likely to happen is when the limb releases, the limb that the climber is on will springboard, and if unaware, the climber could take the limb in the face or chest while the saw is running. Even if _totally aware_ of that potential, the risk is pretty high.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 11, 2010)

If you look closely at the picture above, you can see a shotline has already been set through the needle hole to the left of the rip-out area.

A bull rope was pulled up and over, steel triple-lock applied and the rope chokered. Then the shotbag was tossed over the supporting limb the other side of the rip-out.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 11, 2010)

In this pic, the limb is chokered, there's a wrap around the supporting limb and a wrap around the trunk and the rope passed through friction control and secured.






In this next shot, the shotbag was tossed over top of the entire brushy portion, a second rope pulled over and the whole thing chokered. Note: this is quite unconventional and I've never done anything quite like it. I do not recommend this sort of method to anyone. Given the conditions, however, it did seem like the best and safest choice.


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## Tree Machine (Feb 11, 2010)

Then we hooked it to the truck and gave it some tug.





and finally, snap!. I would never have done this on an intact limb, but because of the thinness of the rip-out, it was pretty clear it would let loose right at that point without a lot of tug.






All went according to plan. Traffic was not blocked, climber didn't take a stem to the face, the mess was kept minimized and limb lowered in a controlled manner where it was wanted. No climbing, at all on this one, and it would have been done in 3 or 4 minutes had I not kept stopping to take pictures for you cool cats. I just thought you might like to see this one.

Shotline: hero.


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## tree md (Feb 11, 2010)

Nice job!


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## tree MDS (Feb 11, 2010)

Nice job TM!

I'm not saying I'm anywhere near as good a climber as you ... but you're reminding me of what it was like before the bucket.

A good climber has to have many tricks ... these are usually developed from years of experience.


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## pdqdl (Feb 11, 2010)

Looks like fun. I have never ripped a branch out of a tree before.

I am curious...Now that you have that tip ripped off, what are you going to do with the rest of the tree?


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## Tree Machine (Feb 11, 2010)

I put on spikes, removed the only other remaining limb, then dumped the whole thing onto the brush pile and diced it into firewood.


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## Marty B (Feb 11, 2010)

*Throw Ball Nightmare.....*

Ever had one of those days.....You locate the just right tie in point, throw ten times, then tell the climber to get his saddle on.....Throw ten more times then the supervisor drops by......throw ten more times and his supervisor shows up.......finally get it on the fifth (35th) throw and then the supervisors all leave. Next install the rope only to find that our 120' ropes are ten feet too short....Crap!!! I need a range finder!!!!


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## Marty B (Feb 12, 2010)

Marty B said:


> Ever had one of those days.....You locate the just right tie in point, throw ten times, then tell the climber to get his saddle on.....Throw ten more times then the supervisor drops by......throw ten more times and his supervisor shows up.......finally get it on the fifth (35th) throw and then the supervisors all leave. Next install the rope only to find that our 120' ropes are ten feet too short....Crap!!! I need a range finder!!!!


I don't need a range finder...:monkey: I just need to get a rope that is the same length as my throw line....Duh!!


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## Tree Machine (Feb 12, 2010)

Marty, the length of your rope has nothing to do with the _throwing_ of the shotline; just in the setting of the rope itself which is pulling a rope up and over- not skill-dependent, for the most part.

From what I can gather, it appears your supervisors need to provide you with a bigshot. If they expect throwing accuracy above 50 feet, they're dreaming. There's a point where using a bigshot becomes a better choice.

I take a great deal of pride in my throwing accuracy, but I know full well that after the 40-50 foot range, a drain becomes more about luck than skill. This is where you move on to a mode that accuracy can once again rely on your *talent*, not a wish and silent begging to the shrew gods. At 50 foot+, I will make a throw attempt, but realistically in my mind I know it's more of a forceful 'Hail Mary' throw punctuated with hope. You throw to a _vicinity_ and hope the shotbag finds its mark. That's accepting a disadvantage, working below our true abilities.

Throwing accuracy diminishes with height, like they're inversely proportional to one another after a certain distance. One would likely never use a bigshot on a 25 foot limb, nor would one use a throw on a 75 foot target crotch, not if you want consistent success. Like anything in the treecare profession, the right tool for the job at hand.

I'm not sure what your supervisors are thinking, not providing you with a bigshot. You, a climber, and two supervisors, standing around and no treecare getting done. Enough time and money went down the rathole in that one single morning to cover the cost of a bigshot head. Please don't view this as an insult, it happens to all of us in one form or another.

This is why I suggest to our community, as professional technicians, that certain tools be viewed as investment, not as purchases or expenses. Time is money. You can look at it as time saved, or _time not lost_. At the end of the day its all the same. Feeling defeated and discouraged, or elated and successful, there is intrinsic value attached to that and we all want to be successful, confident winners because in a same-team setting, you win, everybody wins. EVERYONE can master this. We're all made of the same stuff.

Thank you for bringing that tribulation to us, Marty. It takes a certain amount of courage.


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## Marty B (Feb 12, 2010)

*Tree Machine...*

Thanks for the words of encouragement.....I posted that nightmare because I know I'm not alone in my stuggles, and I think some can relate to the situation....I wasn't going to give up till I hit the crotch. I agree we need to get a Big Shot and some longer climb line.


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