# the spotted owl disappearing act



## forestryworks (Dec 12, 2008)

interesting article called, "the spotted owl disappearing act"

i linked it, as it was too long to post.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-na-spotted-owl1-2008dec01,0,4174955.story?track=rss


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 12, 2008)

I think that they were probably right about the severe logging of old growth being a big part of the problem. Just because that logging dwindled, and the spotted owl numbers are dwindling, does not mean that logging was not a big reason.

It takes decades for habitat to restore, and a mere 10 to 15 years is a drop in the bucket of time, compared to heavy logging of old growth since the 1800s.

That another owl is partly to blame is well worth studying.

But I find that these scientists get in blinders mentality that we need to see results in a short period of time. It may take 50 to 100 years to actually study this type of thing.

I suspect that scientists may need to set their sights on much bigger intervals of time to learn about this. One thing is certain, this species has not existed forever. So they must have gone from just a few to thousands at one point in history. Seems they could do it again.

I'm not aware how much old growth or second growth was in the Oregon Biscuit fire area, but the number of acres devastated by that fire were incredible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit_Fire

A fire that intense must have quite an impact on the wildlife populations for decades.


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## Bushler (Dec 12, 2008)

Yes, it would be great if spotted owls lived in burnt trees. I can't remember how many billions of feet burnt during the sour bisquit fire, and its still there, rotting. I ride through the area frequently in the summer on my motorcycle. I get mad every time. That fire could have been contained when it was less than ten acres, but the eviros said nooooooo, let it burn...its the natural thing.

The winter following the fire the Chetco River ran red with mud from the burnt over watershed. Great management.


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## redprospector (Dec 12, 2008)

I don't have anything against the owl's (I guess), but I do wish the so-called environmentalist would do a dissapearing act.

Andy


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## forestryworks (Dec 12, 2008)

redprospector said:


> I don't have anything against the owl's (I guess), but I do wish the so-called environmentalist would do a dissapearing act.
> 
> Andy



lol :agree2:


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 13, 2008)

For a while I took a blog type page offline, which has my forest management related comments. It's sort of a blog / notepage. But I tossed it back online recently just for the heck of it.

Somewhere on the page, I wrote something to the effect that we may need extremists on both sides of the fence to neutralize each other for some middle-ground results.

Basically, I don't mind people who enjoy nature and want to protect it - it's the nature worshipper types that get under my skin a bit.

Anyhow - about owls - it was just a screech owl, but got to hold an injured one about a year ago. We took it to a recovery place for wildlife. It sure was amazingly soft.


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## windthrown (Dec 13, 2008)

Well, I lived in the heart of spotted owl country for 5 years, and they were declining there becasue the barred owl is moving in on its territory, even though the old growth cutting in that area was all but non-existant (and there are many old growth stands around there). Regardless of habitat, the barred owl would have still moved into this area from the eastern US, and they would have still displaced the spotted owl's habitat even if this were all still virgin old growth forest. The barred owl is more aggressive, and more tolerant of a wider area of habitat. The barred owl will win. Even if we hunt them they will still eventually displace the spotted owl. Sometimes no matter what you do, or try to do, fate is going to run its course, regardless. Oh, and the barred owl also breeds successfully with the spotted owl. So one has to wonder what really makes the spotted owl a unique species, in this case. A hybrid will no doubt result over time. 

Evolution for you...


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## WidowMaker (Dec 13, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I think that they were probably right about the severe logging of old growth being a big part of the problem. Just because that logging dwindled, and the spotted owl numbers are dwindling, does not mean that logging was not a big reason.
> 
> It takes decades for habitat to restore, and a mere 10 to 15 years is a drop in the bucket of time, compared to heavy logging of old growth since the 1800s.
> 
> ...



====

Actually that fire was just a little over 1/3 the size of the "88 Yellowstone fire...


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## Humptulips (Dec 13, 2008)

To loggers I don't think it will make one scintilla of difference whether the spotted owl suvives or not. The enviros are coming up with new species for the endangered list as needed to shut down whatever. There will never be any logging of old growth again and probably scant logging on federal land of any kind.

Latest one here is Fisher. Just released some on the Olympic Peninsula last year. USFW says they are warranted for listing as a distinct population segment. Reintroduction plan calls for a healthy breeding population in the Olympics, Southern Cascades and Northern Cascades to be deemed recovered. Also says they have to have "Closed Canopy Forest" to thrive.
I predict lawsuits someday.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

somewhere i read the envirowhacks were suing 
to stop logging cause a certain snail used only old growth habitat...

:monkey: 

animals and bugs are smarter than most people give credit
they can adapt to change and move on pretty easily
if not, well, it's time for them to go


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> To loggers I don't think it will make one scintilla of difference whether the spotted owl suvives or not. The enviros are coming up with new species for the endangered list as needed to shut down whatever. There will never be any logging of old growth again and probably scant logging on federal land of any kind.
> 
> Latest one here is Fisher. Just released some on the Olympic Peninsula last year. USFW says they are warranted for listing as a distinct population segment. Reintroduction plan calls for a healthy breeding population in the Olympics, Southern Cascades and Northern Cascades to be deemed recovered. Also says they have to have "Closed Canopy Forest" to thrive.
> I predict lawsuits someday.



You are right on. Ironically, the Fisher is considered a pest by the people in Northern Wisconsin, where it flourishes, despite the CLEARCUTTING of Aspen and all the private homes that are mixed in the forest. They thrive on the chickens. I ran into one. He was climbing a tree and gave me a look like he was having a very bad day. I mentioned that they are considered rare out here and the Cheeseheads thought it was a crazy world. 

Here it is the rare slugs and snails. I wonder how rare they really are? 

Last year a logger hired a guy to do a spotted owl survey. If they don't get an answer, the logger can start up 6 weeks earlier. A barred owl answered. The same guy may be doing yet another survey in a different area. It costs around $1800.

The latest plan I've heard is to hire people to shoot barred owls. That'll cost a chunk of change. Also, the number of spotted owl nests found is proportionate to the amount of roads in an area. The denser the road system, the more owl nests there are. The hooters didn't get very far off the roads.


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## mtngun (Dec 13, 2008)

I like cutting and using wood and have no problem with selective logging, but I like having some old growth around, too. 

The logging industry is going down the tubes because the housing industry is going down the tubes, and because of competition from cheap Canadian lumber. Yet living here in logging country, I have yet to see a single bumper sticker complaining about the CEOs and politicians who are responsible for the problem. 

"Bankers ..... it's what's for dinner ???"

"If you don't like logging, try wiping your butt with a Federal Reserve Chairman ?????"

"Republicans .... tastes like chicken ????"

Just a thought. Now go back to logging.


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## Bushler (Dec 13, 2008)

Old growth comes from young growth. Its like corn. When its ripe you harvest it and replant it. Not that hard to understand if you try.

Trees are trees.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 13, 2008)

Bushler said:


> The winter following the fire the Chetco River ran red with mud from the burnt over watershed. Great management.



They tried to blame all that silt and topsoil wash on human activity as well, the top quote being "road building"...


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Old growth comes from young growth. Its like corn. When its ripe you harvest it and replant it. Not that hard to understand if you try.
> 
> Trees are trees.



with the rate of urban sprawl (the current economic downturn aside) we're gonna have to look at it that way.

there's always people born everyday, newlyweds buying houses, yada yada

the world runs on wood and wood products


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## Jacob J. (Dec 13, 2008)

We've already got enough second and third growth plantations to feed our wood needs for the next 500 years easy. In fact, there's a lot of planted ground that's going to convert back into ancient forest before we'll have a chance to log it. 

A TSA I know recently did 1400 acres of fuels reduction and thinning in a primarily virgin forest near Diamond Lake, Oregon, and the after effects look really good. I cut timber on part of the sale and then later on I came back and did slash disposal work on it. It's a good looking sale with mutually beneficial returns and the trees that are left are "legacy" trees.


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

Jacob J. said:


> We've already got enough second and third growth plantations to feed our wood needs for the next 500 years easy. In fact, there's a lot of planted ground that's going to convert back into ancient forest before we'll have a chance to log it.
> 
> A TSA I know recently did 1400 acres of fuels reduction and thinning in a primarily virgin forest near Diamond Lake, Oregon, and the after effects look really good. I cut timber on part of the sale and then later on I came back and did slash disposal work on it. It's a good looking sale with mutually beneficial returns and the trees that are left are "legacy" trees.



that diamond lake area is pretty - at least in pictures it is


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## Jacob J. (Dec 13, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> that diamond lake area is pretty - at least in pictures it is



I cut on a ridge overlooking the lake itself...absolutely gorgeous. You have to take a break every 45 minutes or so and just look out across the lake and remind yourself that it's good to be alive...(not to mention the timber there is some of the best in the world.)


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## Humptulips (Dec 13, 2008)

slowp said:


> You are right on. Ironically, the Fisher is considered a pest by the people in Northern Wisconsin, where it flourishes, despite the CLEARCUTTING of Aspen and all the private homes that are mixed in the forest. They thrive on the chickens. I ran into one. He was climbing a tree and gave me a look like he was having a very bad day. I mentioned that they are considered rare out here and the Cheeseheads thought it was a crazy world.
> 
> Here it is the rare slugs and snails. I wonder how rare they really are?
> 
> ...



A number of years ago I ran into a couple of FS workers out in the woods. They told me they were surveying for the Olympic Jumping Slug. I thought they were joking at the time.
I wonder now though.


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## Bushler (Dec 13, 2008)

Jacob, you might be right about the domestic need, but if we have that much timber why not losen up the regs. and start exporting some fed timber and get a favorable hit on our trade imbalance?

Burvol reports the export market is hot. Why aren't we capitalizing on that if we have more than we need for the next 500 years?

Let the private timber fuel the domestic market, and ship the fed timber to Japan for $1100/M. Seems like a no brainer.

I agree with you on the beauty around Diamond lake. We cruise through there pretty frequently on the motorcycles. I rode my street bike over a gnarly dirt road to see this, Crescent Lake, (north of Diamond Lake).


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## forestryworks (Dec 13, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Jacob, you might be right about the domestic need, but if we have that much timber why not losen up the regs. and start exporting some fed timber and get a favorable hit on our trade imbalance?
> 
> Burvol reports the export market is hot. Why aren't we capitalizing on that if we have more than we need for the next 500 years?
> 
> ...



those are some good thoughts, bushler

and nice pic, too
nice thoughts


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## slowp (Dec 14, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> A number of years ago I ran into a couple of FS workers out in the woods. They told me they were surveying for the Olympic Jumping Slug. I thought they were joking at the time.
> I wonder now though.



They weren't. There's either a jumping slug or a jumping snail that they look for. Pretty strange.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 14, 2008)

no no no, it has to be the celebrated jumping frog of calaveras county.


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## forestryworks (Dec 14, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> no no no, it has to be the celebrated jumping frog of calaveras county.



lol, i'm out of rep for ya


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## Humptulips (Dec 15, 2008)

Just read today the White Bark Pine is being considered for endangered species listing.


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## woodchopper (Dec 29, 2008)

slowp said:


> The latest plan I've heard is to hire people to shoot barred owls. That'll cost a chunk of change. Also, the number of spotted owl nests found is proportionate to the amount of roads in an area. The denser the road system, the more owl nests there are. The hooters didn't get very far off the roads.


More likely the hooter counters don't get off the road too far.:biggrinbounce2: Owls just like any other animal will stay a certain distance away from others of their species. There's plenty of them in the deep woods. 
As someone who likes to hunts and fish I dislike hearing about someone shooting owls so they can log on a piece of land. Glad to know not everyone in the logging industry is that low.


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## Gologit (Dec 29, 2008)

woodchopper said:


> More likely the hooter counters don't get off the road too far.:biggrinbounce2: Owls just like any other animal will stay a certain distance away from others of their species. There's plenty of them in the deep woods.
> As someone who likes to hunts and fish I dislike hearing about someone shooting owls so they can log on a piece of land. Glad to know not everyone in the logging industry is that low.



You hunt and fish in the woods. We work in the woods. You use the woods as a playground. We depend on it for our living. Why not let those of us most closely involved make our own decisions about these things.We can take care of our woods...we don't need outsiders making judgements based on emotion instead of fact.

I think you're well intentioned...just poorly informed. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days.


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## Metals406 (Dec 29, 2008)

I checked on three big FS sales coming up this summer... All of them are fuel reduction, and one 600+ acre sale is blowdown. Some of it is lop and scatter, some is slash and burn... But it's all centered towards fuel reduction. There was a 1400 acre sale last year (three year sale) that was species reduction. That one is lop and scatter, with some salvage rights.

They'd be pretty good jobs if a guy could sell the timber. Being as all our mills are darn near shut down... Maybe a guy could train them to Seattle and sell them to the Jap's?


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## Humptulips (Dec 29, 2008)

woodchopper said:


> More likely the hooter counters don't get off the road too far.:biggrinbounce2: Owls just like any other animal will stay a certain distance away from others of their species. There's plenty of them in the deep woods.
> As someone who likes to hunts and fish I dislike hearing about someone shooting owls so they can log on a piece of land. Glad to know not everyone in the logging industry is that low.



I really don't think it's true that they are out in the deep woods like you would think. Used to be a crew studying them around here. They had some radio collared or how ever they attach a radio to them. They used to stop in front of my house and check on them with radio direction finders. All old growth behind the house and second growth across the road from the house. The owls were always over in the second growth. I guess better habitat. 

I really doubt that anyone is out there shooting owls so they can log a unit. I'd hate to think of the time involved to find and shoot a spotted owl. Probably wouldn't do any good anyway. It would still be a designated Spotted Owl area.


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## forestryworks (Dec 29, 2008)

Gologit said:


> You hunt and fish in the woods. We work in the woods. You use the woods as a playground. We depend on it for our living. *Why not let those of us most closely involved make our own decisions about these things.We can take care of our woods...we don't need outsiders making judgements based on emotion instead of fact.*



well said


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## slowp (Dec 29, 2008)

Apparently I was misunderstood. There is talk of a plan to hunt owls, the *BARRED OWLS*. The *Barred Owl *is now considered the biggest threat to the existance of the Spotted Owl. Logging has nothing to do with shooting barred owls. The Owl Experts are coming up with that idea solely to slow down the takeover of Spotted Owl habitat by the Barred Owls. *Barred Owls *are NOT Spotted Owls although there is some interbreeding going on.


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## windthrown (Dec 30, 2008)

There is quite a lot of interbreeding going on between the spotted and barred owls. Which makes me wonder if they are going to shoot all the cross breeds? And how in tarnation are they going to hunt them all down? They are really hard to find during the day. I lived out there deep in Spotted Owl territory for four years and I heard them on occasion, but I very very rarely saw any. I can see them using playback calls to get the barred owls to respond to the calls. But a bunch of guys out there shooting at night? Man, talk about conservation run amuk. "See, we are dropping these trees here to protect those over there, and we are shooting these animals here to save those over there, and well... its all to save the planet... ...and spend a hell of a lot of money... see?" :monkey:

Funny (or not so funny) story: When I was living on the sheep ranch there was a guy living up the logging road from us about 3 miles. He heard a guy following the creek through his property one night. He thought it was either his other neighbor that he was having a feud with, or someone scoping out his property. So he goes out on the porch and starts screaming, and lets off both barrels of his 12 gauge. He told me about it the next day. Later that night the ex told me that she went to a watershead counsil meeting and the BLM guy there said he had a run-in with a ranting lunatic for a neighbor of ours. He had been out making spotted owl calls the night before to see if any came in. He was doing an area survey along the creek.


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## Gologit (Dec 30, 2008)

slowp said:


> *Barred Owls *are NOT Spotted Owls although there is some interbreeding going on.



Well, they must like each other. Why not quit tampering with Owl romance and just let nature take it's own course?


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## slowp (Dec 30, 2008)

Gologit said:


> Well, they must like each other. Why not quit tampering with Owl romance and just let nature take it's own course?



Because I think that like Windthrown mentioned, there'll be lots of money to be had--oops er, funding.


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## Gologit (Dec 30, 2008)

slowp said:


> Because I think that like Windthrown mentioned, there'll be lots of money to be had--oops er, funding.



You're right. I wish you weren't.


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## woodchopper (Dec 30, 2008)

Gologit said:


> You hunt and fish in the woods. We work in the woods. You use the woods as a playground. We depend on it for our living. Why not let those of us most closely involved make our own decisions about these things.We can take care of our woods...we don't need outsiders making judgements based on emotion instead of fact.
> 
> I think you're well intentioned...just poorly informed. There seems to be a lot of that going around these days.


Obviously you're poorly informed too. Don't know where you got the idea I don't work in the woods but your not even close to being right. I drive tractor trailer for a construction company during the regular season weekdays. I drive a bark mulch trailer on most weekends throughout the year unless I'm laid-off from my regular job then it's full time weather permitting. Although I haven't even sat on a skidder or cut a tree for a living for almost 30 years I did plenty "back in the day". True, I don't work in the woods as much as you but saying I make my judgments based on emotions is a little off especially after the assumption you made about me being poorly informed. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 
I've got no problem with someone doing whatever on their OWN property,it was killing the owls to break the rules I had a problem with. As a property owner I value property rights and respect others to do as they wish on their own land. As was posted after you replied the owls if they are indeed being killed at all it's for reasons other than logging. That's a different story all together.


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## windthrown (Dec 30, 2008)

slowp said:


> Because I think that like Windthrown mentioned, there'll be lots of money to be had--oops er, funding.



Yep. I got an ear full of budgets and funding after the ex joined the local watershed counsil. Basically it all seemed to come down to milking the county, state and feds for every nickle possible, and stretch it out for as long as possible. Some of the funding made sence. We did several of those BLM/fed/state/co. funded woodland owner things. Like clearing 5 acres of CA black oaks of firs. CA black oak is a critical species for a lot of critters. We "fire-proofed" the 400+ year old oak grove and kept them from being crowned out by the understory of firs. That took a forest survey and an amendment to our forest plan and we were on it in a few months. 

But then, we had another one where we had this RR bridge put in across the creek. That took 3 years, 10 different groups of people coming out on three separate plans to survey and put little flags into the ground. Then lots of permits and eco studies were done, and it dragged on for what seemed like forever. The RR 'bridge' was finally brought down from WA state and placed across the stream and it took all of 3 days for the actual work to be done.


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## redprospector (Dec 30, 2008)

slowp said:


> Apparently I was misunderstood. There is talk of a plan to hunt owls, the *BARRED OWLS*. The *Barred Owl *is now considered the biggest threat to the existance of the Spotted Owl. Logging has nothing to do with shooting barred owls. The Owl Experts are coming up with that idea solely to slow down the takeover of Spotted Owl habitat by the Barred Owls. *Barred Owls *are NOT Spotted Owls although there is some interbreeding going on.



Look at the bright side. When the Spotted Owl has become extinct they'll have something else to put on the endangered species list. You can't get any more half-bread Spotted/Barred Owl's if there are no more Spotted Owl's.

Without some kind of owl to champion, environmentalist would probably feel as worthless as they actually are.

Andy


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