# dual powerheads again



## gemniii (Oct 21, 2010)

I reviewed the following threads (about 130 posts) dating back to 2006.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=131067&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=93170&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=83782&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=82713&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=72603&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=71180&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=53049&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=45909&highlight=double
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=37797&highlight=double

Out of that I found one post of someone who did use 2 heads and said it worked well and a couple of posts saying they had tried it but recommended a bigger single powerhead. And the rest opinions about how it wasn't cost effective, blah, blah, blah by people with opinons but no hands on experience

Well I've got some trees like this:








And expect to get more.

I've got one 660 and am planning on getting another one, whether I use it for a dual powerhead setup or not. With the additional costs of bar and mark III mod being about $300.

So is there anyone else with actual dual powerhead experience who can chime in before I buy a dual ended 72" bar for my 660's?

Again I realize an 090 is what I need, but two 660's is what I'm going to have, along with a helper when I tackle the big hardwoods.


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## gemniii (Oct 22, 2010)

Well I finally found the thread I had read:
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=104534

and it was woodsrunner with the excellent post(s). Unfortunately, as so often happens here, most of the thread went off topic.

So now I've seen two successes, any comments?

/edit - it's woodsrunner


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## gemniii (Oct 22, 2010)

woodsrunner pics:


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## gemniii (Oct 22, 2010)

woodsrunner pics more:


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## betterbuilt (Oct 22, 2010)

I don't have any experience with running a second power head. I have been looking for a saw that's a match to one of my saws I mill with now. I have read the same thing: doesn't work, Isn't worth it, get a bigger saw. I feel the same way you do about running a second power head. I don't believe there can be minimal power gains when you double the power. 

My plan are to put two 066 on a big bar. I currently have a 56 inch double ended bar and the most I've been able to get from it is 46 inches. I hope you beat my to it, but if not I'll let you know how it goes. 

How big is the tree in the picture? Its really hard to tell by the picture.


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## gemniii (Oct 22, 2010)

The tree in the first post is about 5' DBH.


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## betterbuilt (Oct 22, 2010)

I just found another 076 so when I once I get a chance to pressure test it I'll do some timed comparisons. I'll probably be late next week.


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## stipes (Oct 22, 2010)

*My problem is....*



gemniii said:


> I reviewed the following threads (about 130 posts) dating back to 2006.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=131067&highlight=double
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=93170&highlight=double
> ...



How often are you gonna need a 2 power head setup,,and also with the way things are now days to have a second person on the other end for you on a certain day..I have alot of great friends but they have alot goin on in their lives now where it's hard to just get connected for a day .. I'd go with the 090... Please dont think I'm doggin you on this cause I was lookin at some BSM and thinkin myself,,I dont do millin for production or profit,,so why do I need one vers. the cost...Also how many logs are comin my way that are that big to have to have 2 people to mill with....What am gonna make from it??? Big slab table,,yes,,but to take one that big I usally take the top off with the Alaskan and mini mill cants off it for furnuture...
I wonder if BobL can answer that for us how big can you go without having a second person helpin...Looked like he milled some big stuff down under by himself...
Good luck on your choice,,and chose what makes you happy with!!!


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## glennschumann (Oct 22, 2010)

My thoughts on the double ender situation...

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1835297#post1835297


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## betterbuilt (Oct 22, 2010)

stipes said:


> How often are you gonna need a 2 power head setup,,and also with the way things are now days to have a second person on the other end for you on a certain day..I have alot of great friends but they have alot goin on in their lives now where it's hard to just get connected for a day .. I'd go with the 090... Please dont think I'm doggin you on this cause I was lookin at some BSM and thinkin myself,,I dont do millin for production or profit,,so why do I need one vers. the cost...Also how many logs are comin my way that are that big to have to have 2 people to mill with....What am gonna make from it??? Big slab table,,yes,,but to take one that big I usally take the top off with the Alaskan and mini mill cants off it for furnuture...
> I wonder if BobL can answer that for us how big can you go without having a second person helpin...Looked like he milled some big stuff down under by himself...
> Good luck on your choice,,and chose what makes you happy with!!!



I'm sure it makes sense to you that there is no need for another power head. I think the point is why buy another saw and not try putting them together. If he buys a 090 its gonna be a single source power plant. By getting another 660 he would have 184ccs at his disposal. They Might burn more fuel and use more oil but It might make the job a lot easier. 

BobL has said he doesn't like anyone around when he's milling. He has also said he uses his milling as a sort of therapy so I can understand his reasons for wanting to do it himself. I on the other hand like having and extra hand to move 300+ lbs slabs around. I don't usually mill really big trees alone so having another powerhead would be really nice if it made the job go faster even if its minimal gain.


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## gemniii (Oct 22, 2010)

Well it seems like always, I didn't express myself well enough.

I've got one 660 and just bought another from redlinefever, both about the same HP, same CC. Woodsrunner had a 395 and a 385, slightly different but the setup worked well for him.

When I need it I've got 2 strappin' helpers (bred them myself) handy and two more of the same family and age group on call.

I've got occasional LARGE wood. (I could get a steady supply, but it's not in my game plan). I want to prepare for the possibility to mill it. 

Before I found woodsrunner's post I wasn't to sure about the viability of a twin powerhead setup. Virtually all the posts I found here and elsewhere were along the lines "don't do it", "buy one big saw", "requires a helper" "won't work", accompanied by "but I never tried it". The earth used to be the center of the universe, the world used to be flat.

I think one of the best comments from someone who purported to have done it was from Procutsaws


> So my advice to you. Unless you are going to cut very large logs say over 36" it just is not worth it.


 http://www.procutportablesawmills.com/doublesawbars.html .

Heck my little single 660 setup






can probably handle 36". And I didn't think 36" qualified as "very large".

So I'll be in the market for a good 72" double ended bar. I've got the saws, I've got the helpers.


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## BobL (Oct 22, 2010)

stipes said:


> I wonder if BobL can answer that for us how big can you go without having a second person helpin...Looked like he milled some big stuff down under by himself...



The BIL mill is 72 lbs with the longer rails and th 60" bar, it has pump up wheels that can be attached to it to allow me to get it from my shed to may van, from the van to the log and VV. The only time I have to lift it is on and off the log. The mill goes down a sloped log with relatively little effort. I'm in not particular hurry, I'm milling as much for the experience as for the output. 

The widest log I have milled with this was 50" at one end. It was dead easy to do the actual cutting because I managed to get that log up on a slope and the BIL mill is a good self feeder. I reckon I could still (just) physically manage a 72" bar on my 880 on a 60" wide aussie hardwood log by myself (remember I'm a bit older than most of you guys), it would certainly be slower cutting than a double ender. I have a couple of candidate logs awaiting me on the farm - maybe this summer if my hand comes good but I'll be having a helper for this one.

In terms of the sustained physical effort required during milling the mill weight and the cutting should not be an issue (That's why I'm not that worried about B3M), it's the milled slabs that raises far more sweat and muscle/joint aches. Stuff up to 30" x 8 ft x 2" can weigh as much as 250 lb when green, I can just handle these by myself with a trolley, rollers etc but it's hard work - especially getting them up onto a stack. In the tree loppers yard I have a nice helper, a 1 ton capacity fork lift. On the farm we have this very helpful gizmo (it can lift 300lb), as well as the tractor with forks.





The widest log I milled by myself without any assisatnce was a 4 ft diameter (6 ft long) marri but I would not want to be tackling stuff like that on a regular basis. I do have a nice home made type mini-mill that I could use to break up big slabs while they are overhanging the log itself that I have used a couple of times.



betterbuilt said:


> BobL has said he doesn't like anyone around when he's milling. He has also said he uses his milling as a sort of therapy so I can understand his reasons for wanting to do it himself. I on the other hand like having and extra hand to move 300+ lbs slabs around. I don't usually mill really big trees alone so having another powerhead would be really nice if it made the job go faster even if its minimal gain.



Yep - the whole milling thing is my "relax time", from building the mill, to testing it and then milling some logs. I prefer doing this by myself. But if you want production, if they have common sense and don't need constant rounding up, helpers can make the job go much faster. But more helpers and more operators also means more risk to watch out for. 

One this that strikes me as odd in this image is . . . . 




Why isn't the mill hard over to one side?
The natural action of a CS mill is to drive one of the powerheads up against the log and it should be the same for a twin powerhead. To hold the mill equally balanced in the manner of the above picture I would have thought that one operator would have had to push while the other would have had to pull but it does not look like either operator is exerting any pull or push

My guess is that the operators are feeding the mill slowly cut to avoid this problem - if so, then they are nowhere near maximising their cutting speed. Another thing that makes me think this way is I can't see a lot of chips but I can see a lot of dust.

To maximisie the cutting speed on a double ender the rakers have to be seriously dropped, so much so that they should bog the saw if that chain is used on a one ender. I've heard raker angles of 10º -12º work and this will definitely drag the mill over to one side. Then if the bar is too wide this means the operators are exerting energy holding the powerheads balanced. Using such a wide bar to mill such a small log is also potentially dangerous - too much bar exposed on the same side as the operator. This is less of a risk with a single ender where the excess bar is on the other side of a log from the operator.

That's enough from me - back to the shed and the B3M.


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## betterbuilt (Oct 22, 2010)

Thanks BobL. I have a tach on the way and am gonna be picking up a second 076. I'm gonna do some timed tests with one and two powerheads. I want to put this myth to rest. I would like any input on how to do a honest test. 

BobL I like your little fork lift thats really cool.


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## BobL (Oct 23, 2010)

betterbuilt said:


> Thanks BobL. I have a tach on the way and am gonna be picking up a second 076. I'm gonna do some timed tests with one and two powerheads. I want to put this myth to rest. I would like any input on how to do a honest test.



Just swapping from one to two heads is not fair test.

I'd be optimizing the cutting for one saw (Sprocket/chain/rakers etc) and do some timed cuts on a fixed width cant.
Then throw everything to the winds and optimizing the cutting setup for two saws (sprockets, rakers etc)

Normally varying the pin count on drive sprockets is the quickest way to optimize than varying raker depths. Pity the 076 has that outboard clutch!

The alternative is slowly increase the raker/cutting angle (eg 6º, 7º, 8º) till the chain starts to bog and then do the timed test.

The thing is, this will still only demonstrate 2 saws V 1 saw for only that width of cut in that wood using a specific type of chain for the 076. For some level of practicality you'd then do the same optimized test for 20", 30" 40" 50" cuts in that wood, the result would be a table showing the optimum setup for different widths - that would be a VERY useful outcome. 

The ideal resource would be a booklet that would take everything into account but this would take a few years full time to generate? I guess this explains why no one has done it.



> BobL I like your little fork lift thats really cool.


Thanks - Unfortunately it's not mine but lives on a friends the farm where I mill a couple of times a year. It is quite mobile so I could borrow it if I asked nicely to do a tricky job.


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## billstuewe (Oct 23, 2010)

I recently put a 72" bar on my 880 and am very pleased with the results.
Check out this post for pics--
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=148312


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## betterbuilt (Oct 23, 2010)

I'm gonna order that DAF to get on the same page as you guys and try to make detailed Posts on my findings. Actually I think if Kirkeg starts helping me mill more often he could do the the timed tests. I'm gonna need a dash board on that rock


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## Timberframed (Oct 23, 2010)

BB, Let me know if you need me to come up there and slab that rock flat for instrument gauges! Good work of that automill. You might get adopted by BobL yet. I'm still waiting in line at the orphanage.


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## BobL (Oct 23, 2010)

betterbuilt said:


> I'm gonna order that DAF to get on the same page as you guys and try to make detailed Posts on my findings. Actually I think if Kirkeg starts helping me mill more often he could do the the timed tests. I'm gonna need a dash board on that rock



Forget the dash, beer can holder and beer nut, chip and cheese bowls might be the go.


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## BobL (Oct 23, 2010)

Timberframed said:


> BB, Let me know if you need me to come up there and slab that rock flat for instrument gauges! Good work of that automill. You might get adopted by BobL yet. I'm still waiting in line at the orphanage.



I thought we're already all bro's (and sis's) here


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## betterbuilt (Oct 24, 2010)

Its funny that you mention the beer can holder. I just was thinking that would be on my next mill. 

I have been thinking about how hard its gonna be to get a chain on those 076's. You know how you have to fish the chain between the drum and the muffler. Might be fun getting all together.


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## Timberframed (Oct 24, 2010)

Beer can holder might work but all the vibrations from the powerhead might render it too much on the frothy side. Can't find the post but one of BobL's pic 's of the automill clearly shows an easy chair (in the field) and a cold one being utilized. Distance from BobL (in the chair) to milling operation approx. 5.9757' Finished the one 5' x 9' Ash log today.


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## betterbuilt (Oct 24, 2010)

Well I usually drink really thick stouts and I think it just might work. The backup plan is using the Adirondack chair and a air compressor with air actuated cylinders for throttle control.


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## Timberframed (Oct 24, 2010)

Sooo...I see... you're going to design a riding mill like a lawnboy? kegilator, microwave , BB grill/ w hot sauce rack and a pinball machine? Hammock maybe for the really big logs/overnighters? Snoooze&mill! I like that! We might fabricate a mill that we may never have to get off of.


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## betterbuilt (Oct 24, 2010)

I kinda doubt it. I really think I might add a tac and a timer but thats about as far as I'm gonna go. I might just add the beer holder for fun. By the way that rock met an early demise when it tumbled of the mill and cracked in half so I'll have to find another one you can slab out for me.


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## betterbuilt (Oct 24, 2010)

Any pics of that Ash?


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## Timberframed (Oct 24, 2010)

Naw, Camera's down. I'll get some shots with another soon. It's going to be interesting on the next log next week if the weather holds out in my favor.


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## betterbuilt (Oct 24, 2010)

If the weather holds out? Don't you have the current umbrella attachment for rain or the arctic heater if it snows? You really need to catch up with things.


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## Timberframed (Oct 24, 2010)

I ordered the mill umbrella ($799.99 + tax)via Bailey's but they shipped it without the bracket to attach to the mill. Frustrated,I yelled through the phone at the cubicle encased sales rep and was promptly disconnected. I've since designed a hot air balloon type enclosure that requires more hot air than I can provide with currently available propane cylinders. Basicly, I need more hot air!


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## betterbuilt (Oct 24, 2010)

Guess I'm gonna have to make a trip down there and help you out with that hot air.


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## Timberframed (Oct 24, 2010)

Need more help with the cold beer. You know...before the first good frost and then the tops pop off on their own. What a waste.


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## cowboyvet (Nov 1, 2010)

Timberframed said:


> I ordered the mill umbrella ($799.99 + tax)via Bailey's but they shipped it without the bracket to attach to the mill. Frustrated,I yelled through the phone at the cubicle encased sales rep and was promptly disconnected. I've since designed a hot air balloon type enclosure that requires more hot air than I can provide with currently available propane cylinders. Basicly, I need more hot air!



All you need for more than enough hot air is get someone of the opposite gender. This usually provides more than you can hope to use. Just remember you need to run regular summer weight oil even in the winter with this technique.:chainsawguy:

Before anybody starts, please note I left this gender nuetral...even if we know what it means.


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