# Outer bark damage from logging



## headleyj (Feb 26, 2010)

So alot of trees on our place (right along the main trails) have the outer bark worn away from other trees/ machinery rubbing against it when they logged it.

- Is it best to take these trees down? 
- If they bloom in the spring and look healthy throughout the season should you leave them and keep an eye on them?

I'm sure it all depends on the severity of the damage. Kinda common sense, but I don't want them to fall over one day but looked healthy for some reason.

Thanks,
Josh


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## tramp bushler (Feb 26, 2010)

They will either heal up or not . By the end of the upcoming growing season you should be able to tell what ones are healing up and what ones arn,t .


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## redprospector (Feb 26, 2010)

Our state forestry makes us take out conifers that are damaged 1/3 or more the circumfrence for the tree. They seem to do ok with some damage, but I believe it makes them more suceptable to insects, etc.
How many is a lot of trees? Good loggers will leave a minimum number of skinned up trees.

Andy


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## floyd (Feb 26, 2010)

Next time write it in the contract that damaged trees cost them triple stumpage. 

I would have to see the site but a good operator DOES NOT damage leave trees.


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## Curlycherry1 (Feb 26, 2010)

I used to get the job of taking them out in top clearing operations for firewood. Foresters said even though they heal over, the butt log is no good and it will often lead to rotting of the tree. Every forester had me or the other operations I knew of take them out. They were never left standing.

Because you have so much other stuff to clean up right now (based on other posts) I would leave the damaged trees and only take them down if they do not leaf out. Then once you get everything else cleared up you can start taking those damaged ones out. You seem to be swimming in wood to deal with right now, no sense in messing with trees that are alive at the current time.

Another thing to consider is that if they got banged up this time that pretty much signals they are in a place where the skidder could not get them out easily. That is a pretty good sign that if you remove those trees, logging will be easier next time around.


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## floyd (Feb 26, 2010)

I disagree. Too many cowboy skidder operators out there.


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## headleyj (Feb 26, 2010)

great point everyone, thank you. Just to fill in a few blanks - the property was already logged when we saw it listed for sale, we did not hire the logging out.

I'd conservitaverly estimate 20 trees or so are skinned up. I have been keeping an eye on them - some are doing better than others - if they don't leaf out I will take them down.

Curly - yeah I've got a TON of work to do between cleaning up trails, skinned trees, etc.

I found out the fella who logged this clogged a few creeks up and flooded out a road in the bottoms - State was called in and he cleaned some of the creeks out to stop the road flooding - the more I learn, the more I wish I didn't know  I've found bar/ chain oil containers, trash, tons of beer cans, etc from them - I think I've got all that cleaned up now though.....that's above ground atleast.


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## stumpjumper83 (Feb 26, 2010)

If you think you might have the property logged in the future, might be wise to leave them there. That way the next tree in doesnt get skinned up... just a thought.


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## 385XP (Feb 26, 2010)

If its only 20 trees on 20 acres its not a lot. Are trees along the main trails if they are id leave them for bumper trees.


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## Slamm (Feb 26, 2010)

stumpjumper83 said:


> If you think you might have the property logged in the future, might be wise to leave them there. That way the next tree in doesnt get skinned up... just a thought.



Very good point.

Another thought is if they aren't hurting anything now. Just "ring" them and let them die, drying on the stump and then use them for firewood later.

We always try to use "crap" trees as "turn" trees, but sometimes you have to do what you gotta do.

I prefer to remove the damaged trees and typically we will use a tree we know we are going to cut/want that way nothing is hurt or damaged that was going to stay.

That logger that logged that property was a jack leg, I hate people who litter.

I once contract cut for a guy in Iowa that wanted us to change the oil in his skidder. We got everything we needed oil, wrenchs, filter and when we asked for him to bring or get a drain bucket. He said just dump it on the ground ............. we all just about quit him, LOL. We were pissed at him for even suggesting it. We made him go into town just to buy a bucket.

Later,

Sam


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## tramp bushler (Feb 27, 2010)

A guy I know and have worked with is an environmentalist ... He says the problem is a concentration of garbage so he litters quite freely .......A few artifacts laying around never hurt any one ...........opcorn::jester:opcorn:


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## RandyMac (Feb 27, 2010)

Artifacts LOL!!!
We have lots of logging artifacts littering the place, cables, fuel drums, donkeys, archs, old saws, forgotten landingmen.


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## Curlycherry1 (Feb 27, 2010)

Slamm said:


> I once contract cut for a guy in Iowa that wanted us to change the oil in his skidder. We got everything we needed oil, wrenchs, filter and when we asked for him to bring or get a drain bucket. He said just dump it on the ground ............. we all just about quit him, LOL. We were pissed at him for even suggesting it. We made him go into town just to buy a bucket.
> Later,
> Sam



Common winter practice with some of the dorks I was around would be that they would pull some sawdust from cutting butts at the landing into a pile. They would park the skidder or truck over it and let the oil drain into it. Then they would back the equipment away and light the oil to keep warm. They would also toss the filters onto the fire for that long burning effect. Nice smoky fire to keep them toasty.


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## tramp bushler (Feb 27, 2010)

Curlycherry1 said:


> Common winter practice with some of the dorks I was around would be that they would pull some sawdust from cutting butts at the landing into a pile. They would park the skidder or truck over it and let the oil drain into it. Then they would back the equipment away and light the oil to keep warm. They would also toss the filters onto the fire for that long burning effect. Nice smoky fire to keep them toasty.



.

. So , whats wrong with that ???? You guys sound fairly left !!!!!!!! Ya know , they used to spray used oil on the dirt roads to keep the dust down ......... Ships used to dump bunkers on the sea to calm the water for boarding and lightering . We used to paint barns with creasote . We WERE the greatest nation on earth back then ..... Now we have loggers talking like environmentalists and we are nearly a bananna republic ......... Log er clean and pave er flat boys ......


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## DK_stihl (Feb 27, 2010)

*Excellent point*



385XP said:


> If its only 20 trees on 20 acres its not a lot. Are trees along the main trails if they are id leave them for bumper trees.



It would be wise to leave them if you plan on doing more work in the future. They will help prevent your skid trails from getting larger.


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## RandyMac (Feb 27, 2010)

Clean logging?, oh yeah, the Redwood style of "clean" logging put the enviros into a frenzy, nothing but burnt stumps and dirt is left.


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## Curlycherry1 (Feb 27, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> . So , whats wrong with that ???? You guys sound fairly left !!!!!!!! Ya know , they used to spray used oil on the dirt roads to keep the dust down ......... Ships used to dump bunkers on the sea to calm the water for boarding and lightering . We used to paint barns with creasote . We WERE the greatest nation on earth back then ..... Now we have loggers talking like environmentalists and we are nearly a bananna republic ......... Log er clean and pave er flat boys ......



Well, when one puts oil on the ground and burns it not all of it is burned, and when water goes through that dirt and it carries the oil to other places which may or may not be good.

Yeah we used to do a lot of things, then we learned that were were stupid. We used to dump solvents onto the ground and nobody thought it was a big deal. Then one day someone discovered hundreds of wells were contaminated with one of those solvents. Do you want to drink someone's toxic waste? How about I come over onto your land a dump a barrel or two of the stuff we generate at work. I am sure you won't mind.

Here is one toxic waste problem that starts about 2 miles from my house.
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/hazardous/sites/washington/baytown/index.html


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## Burvol (Feb 27, 2010)

Curlycherry1 said:


> Common winter practice with some of the dorks I was around would be that they would pull some sawdust from cutting butts at the landing into a pile. They would park the skidder or truck over it and let the oil drain into it. Then they would back the equipment away and light the oil to keep warm. They would also toss the filters onto the fire for that long burning effect. Nice smoky fire to keep them toasty.



Guys throw the filters in the fire to prevent a mess in the back of the crummy. I see most guys pick up the spent, burned cartriges  There is always killer wood to burn on the landing, most guys have one burning somewhere in the vacinity in the winter. If no one is around chasing, perhaps next to a piece of equipment that is getting worked on, ect. You sound so shocked. Are you sure you were a logger? lol


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## Curlycherry1 (Feb 28, 2010)

Burvol said:


> You sound so shocked. Are you sure you were a logger? lol



I wasn't a logger, I was an East Coast firewood woodchuck. They are a much lower subspecies. 

I saw lots of rubbish fires on the landings for the guys to keep warm by. Logging never stops back where I come from, even 100" of snow will not keep guys out of the woods. I myself had some fires going when it was cold and that was exactly what ash trees are great for because they burn green.

But the dumping of the oil on the ground first and then trying to burn it was just not a good practice. It is not the logger's land to be polluting. I bet I can go to some of those landings 30 yearss after the fact and still find those burn pits because nothing grows on them. The woods behind my mom's house has one I can still see from the road it is so big, but that logger was a major tool. He let his equipment drip oil like it was free flowing.

I saw a few guys that burned some junk like oil but both of them had a pan they dragged around with them to put the fire in. They were smart to not let the oil run into the ground and thus not get the most BTUs out of it. They also burned used paint thinners and stuff like that. The pit just made it look like they cared about what they were doing but landowers liked that.

As woodcutters we are supposed to be good stewards of the land and all any enviromental whacko has to do is go up one of these burn piles and point out the oil and say "see, this is how much they care about the enviroment." Leaking equipment is another issue but that is not always up to the logger's control. But I have seen equipment dripping steady streams of oil out end as they pour good oil into the other. Two of the foresters I knew had a list of recommened loggers they liked to use, and both of those foresters paid attention to how the folks treated the landing (clean, organized, safe, no pollution/trash and most of all cleaned up when done), and the both also inspected the logger's equipment on a regular basis to see what state it was in (ie leaking oil and covered in gunk, etc). The loggers they worked with got some nice jobs in primo wood that other loggers never got a shot at, and it was because they were slobs. 

One major furniture company in CNY that was known for buying cherry and maple logs and paying about 1.5X the normal going rates would not accept logs from loggers that did not run clean looking operations, or operations that trashed the woods with bad skidding practices. They considered the land that produced trees one of the things they needed to take care of because they had been in business for many, many decades, and they wanted to make sure the land would be there for them in the future. I heard they are still snobs, but they are still buying, 30 years later.


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## Grace Tree (Mar 1, 2010)

*Spam*

.


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## tramp bushler (Mar 1, 2010)

Well Curly , I guess if you never fell trees that have been standing for over a thousand years , and still view them as just some crap you need to get on the ground then you can,t understand that a little oil on the ground don,t matter ... 
.
. You want to clean up oil ,whindoner , . Back when the Penobscot river was flowing bank to bank with suds from the pulp mills , and people were working , and we were saying the Pledge of Alligance ( Under GOD ) in school , life was alot better than it is now that the Penobscot is all clean and there is no work there so bored men have nothing to teach their sons execpt how to live on welfare , be a druggy or drunk . and have no future ...
.
. The millions of Borgs who think like you have little or no future , because it seems your future is connected to sucking up to the college indoctrinated mini over lords .......... Your ( Foresters) ........aka piss fir wileys .................
.
. Obviously burning used oil in a burn barrel is better than having benzene seep into the ground . However it really doesn,t matter ........ The price of petroleum products dictates that leakage is greatly reduced if not totally eliminated ...........
.





.
.It is people who exhibit apparent traits such as the ones you are ,who oppose things like the Pebble .......

.
. If you create , own , pay for , and operate your own company .......especially if you start it from your own sweat . And arn,t just some stupid employee who needs to be led around by the hand and who will gripe and complain about the company , .... You may have a better understanding why doing ONE thing the easy way , like burning oil on a sawdust pile is gratifying .... It may be the only easy thing that operator got to do all week ..!!!!!
.
.I would say that I don,t give a ---- if anyone feels I,ve cast aspersions on them with this post :chainsawguy:


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## Oldtimer (Mar 1, 2010)

floyd said:


> Next time write it in the contract that damaged trees cost them triple stumpage.
> 
> I would have to see the site but a good operator DOES NOT damage leave trees.



You're out of your mind if you think conventional cable logging can be done without damaging leave trees. It can not be done. Even mechanized logging will damage some. Can there be more than an acceptable amount? Absolutely.
But rub trees are a fact of timber harvests.

Rub trees generally live, and almost always produce more mast because of the damage. Leave them alone. When one dies, or falls down, utilize it, or don't . A healthy woods/forest has debris and residue of dead trees. A woods that is cleaned up tidy because it "looks better" is the worst possible thing you can do for it health wise. If you really care about the woods, leave it be until the next round of timber harvesting, and see to it the next harvest is done in a manner that leaves as much of the limbs and under-brush as possible right in the woods to rot.


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## headleyj (Mar 1, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> You're out of your mind if you think conventional cable logging can be done without damaging leave trees. It can not be done. Even mechanized logging will damage some. Can there be more than an acceptable amount? Absolutely.
> But rub trees are a fact of timber harvests.
> 
> Rub trees generally live, and almost always produce more mast because of the damage. Leave them alone. When one dies, or falls down, utilize it, or don't . A healthy woods/forest has debris and residue of dead trees. A woods that is cleaned up tidy because it "looks better" is the worst possible thing you can do for it health wise. If you really care about the woods, leave it bee until the next round of timber harvesting, and see to it the next harvest is done in a manner that leaves as much of the limbs and under-brush right in the woods to rot.




I don't mind the limbs around, I know that's part of it.....I do want it to look nice for sure (it;s got a Loooonnng way to go there, trust me). If a rub tree dies I'll prolly take it down.

It'll never be 100% free of debris, and like you said nor do you want it to be. I do want it to be healthy, but passable/ accessable as well.


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## Curlycherry1 (Mar 1, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> Well Curly , I guess if you never fell trees that have been standing for over a thousand years , and still view them as just some crap you need to get on the ground then you can,t understand that a little oil on the ground don,t matter ...
> .
> . You want to clean up oil ,whindoner , . Back when the Penobscot river was flowing bank to bank with suds from the pulp mills , and people were working , and we were saying the Pledge of Alligance ( Under GOD ) in school , life was alot better than it is now that the Penobscot is all clean and there is no work there so bored men have nothing to teach their sons execpt how to live on welfare , be a druggy or drunk . and have no future ...
> .
> ...



I think you have me pegged a bit wrong. I see a big difference between burning a little oil out in the back country of the West Coast vs the back yard of some Easterner. Out West you folks have big swaths of land where nobody is around for miles, whereas back where I used to cut you only needed to drive at most a mile or two to find a house. Big difference in those two locales.

There is burning a little oil on some sawdust and there is letting the entire hydraulic system drain into the bare ground and then trying to set it on fire. I have observed both first hand and the sawdust method works great and often leaves little no damage. If I owned thousands of acres then I myself would not even care about a full oil dump, but back East the woodlots are much smaller and almost always in someone's back yard. That is a problem in those areas where folks count on their wells to provide clean water.

I was discussing the oil thing last night with my brother because he has to recyle a lot of oil he goes through each year. He said a guy near him used to use motor oil around his house to kill the weeds. He would pull back the landscape stones, spray the used oil down, and then cover it back up. Well the dork forgot that his old farm well in the corner of his basement was the classic ~20' deep hand dug well. The oil got into his well. He had no one to blame but himself. Worse was when he tried to sell the house and retire out of the area the water well did not pass and he had to explain what had happened. He ended up not selling the house.


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## Curlycherry1 (Mar 1, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> You're out of your mind if you think conventional cable logging can be done without damaging leave trees. It can not be done. Even mechanized logging will damage some. Can there be more than an acceptable amount? Absolutely.
> But rub trees are a fact of timber harvests.



My step mom's brother was a magician in the woods with his little JD440. That guy could skid big wood out and one would be hard pressed to find a leaf turned over he was that gentle. He did not make big pulls, often just 1-3 logs per trip, he cut long logs down so as to make corners better, and he never worked in bad wet conditions. He always said mid winter and mid summer was for when to get into the wet areas. He prided himself on being gentle and he never got rich logging. But he milled the wood he skidded and he turned it into flooring and paneling and made enough to take care of his family. And he always had a list a mile long of places he could log because he was in high demand. But he always was a one man operation with ballet slippers for log shoes.


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## DK_stihl (Mar 1, 2010)

*440's*

I love em!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1pBPH0svns


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## Humptulips (Mar 1, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> Well Curly , I guess if you never fell trees that have been standing for over a thousand years , and still view them as just some crap you need to get on the ground then you can,t understand that a little oil on the ground don,t matter ...
> .
> . You want to clean up oil ,whindoner , . Back when the Penobscot river was flowing bank to bank with suds from the pulp mills , and people were working , and we were saying the Pledge of Alligance ( Under GOD ) in school , life was alot better than it is now that the Penobscot is all clean and there is no work there so bored men have nothing to teach their sons execpt how to live on welfare , be a druggy or drunk . and have no future ...
> .
> ...



Tramp,
Quit beating around the bush and tell us what you really think.


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## slowp (Mar 2, 2010)

Tramp, I believe you need to add the other sex to your condemnation, let me see, it would be lords and ladies. And Piss Fir Willominas of which I happen to be one. 

Now, all loggers are not perfect, and not all foresters amazingly enough. I've come across guys letting their yarder leak antifreeze into a creek. What would you do? Let the leakage continue because it was something easy they could do? 

Do you know how many eyes are out in the woods just waiting to find that kind of thing going on. The eyes belong to people who want to run you out of the woods and send you to a city to live because they think that is where all people should live? Do you know the pressure that is on that forester from BOTH extreme sides? Come and follow me around when things get busy.
I have the job that nobody much wants to do anymore. We're damned by both sides. 

On the topic of scarring up trees. Yes, a good operator can work without much damage. It depends on the time of year, the pride of the workers, and the understanding of the lords and ladies. One doth not (I felt like working in ancient royalty speak) go outeth into the woods and just start whacking down trees. But most of you know that. 

I will work WITH operators. If we royalty get too uppity, they too will become so. It is a two way street. Things are not as wonderful as they were in the old days. I'm not hearing about so many loggers getting killed and injured, and the surviving guys seem to take more pride in NOT leaving a mess behind. Remember when life seemed cheaper? It isn't that way anymore and that is a good thing. 

Back to the tree scarring up. I had a skyline operator show me that he could yard without any dings that went through the bark all the way. We had a kind of bet going, it was winter when the bark is tight, and he had a pretty good crew for once. He did an exceptional job that time. He never was able to duplicate it. 

I'm also responsible for damage because I'm the one that marks out the corridor trees for width. I can't give myself the stinkeye. Well, maybe if I carried a mirror around. 

In my neck of the woods, I don't find anybody anymore who doesn't care about having a good reputation and being a concientious logger. The way things are, if you are a bad logger, you won't get any good work after your first job. 

There's no need for ranting and name calling. There's enough of that going on in the real world. If you are frustrated, suck it in and go take it out on some firewood.


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## Gologit (Mar 2, 2010)

Most of the restrictive rules and laws we deal with today are a direct result of mistakes we made in the past. When I think of some of the stuff we did in the "good old days" I'm surprised that they even let us log at all. Things had to change...and they did.

I won't go into specifics but anybody who's logged long enough to wear out a pair of caulks knows what I'm talking about. The old days are gone and they're not coming back. If we, as loggers, don't adjust to that fact it only makes our job harder.

Do I like all the new rules? Hell, no. A lot of them are ridiculous, not well thought out, and just plain get in the way of getting wood down the hill. But they _are_ the rules. If we loggers don't like a law, get it changed if you can. If you can't get it changed, learn to live with it. That's the deal, pure and simple. We can stand around and scream and yell about it but all we're doing is wasting time. 

Every time we send a log down the hill we're sticking our thumb right in the eye of all the people who don't want us to be logging at all. Let's keep doing that.


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## Mike PA (Mar 2, 2010)

Wow. I like reading the logging section because I usually pick up something useful or read good stories, but not today. I just have to respond to some of these because they are just so bad. Yes, I am not a logger. I am a geologist. You want historic perspective, talk to one of us. We think of recent as being in the last 100,000 years. And, as far as being left, the next person that calls me that will be the first. I am not a global warming/ climate change alarmist. What I am alarmed at with climate change is the fact that people seem to think climate doesn't change... but that is subject for a different post.

I do environmental work, but I am not an environmentalist. I have worked on sites where oil was applied to keep the dust down. On these sites, there was three feet of oil floating on top of the water in a drinking well. I think that is a problem. Doing the work I do, I have certain perspective for what is important and what isn't. Loose that perspective and soon you have rivers that burn. Believe me, it happened.

I don't know what rules and regs you have to deal with. I am sure they are similar to mine in that some work and some don't. Some of the regulators can't see the forest for the trees and you just have to deal with them the best you can. You have to take the good with the bad. Believe it or not, things are better as a result of some of these rules, as some people, left to their own devices, will not behave well and will leave behind whatever mess they want to. This attitude is extremely short sighted and ultimately self-defeating.


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## woodlotguy (Mar 2, 2010)

I just finished a small stand improvement cut.We used two big percherons(horses) it is always amazing to se them work,and the only thing they leave in the woods is some fertilizer.Well thought out skid roads and shorter logs can minimize damage to other trees.


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## floyd (Mar 4, 2010)

Ah, no I am not out of my mind. All it takes is a good operator. Obviously this does not include you, however.


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## RPM (Mar 4, 2010)

slowp said:


> in my neck of the woods, i don't find anybody anymore who doesn't care about having a good reputation and being a concientious logger. The way things are, if you are a bad logger, you won't get any good work after your first job. .



+1


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## redprospector (Mar 5, 2010)

Getting trees out of the woods with the least amount of damage to leave trees is a concerted effort.
If the person laying out the skid trails dosent do a good job, then trees will be skinned up no mater how good the fallers, and skidder operators are.
If the fallers just let the trees go wherever they want to go, then trees will be skinned up no mater how good the skid trails are layed out, or how good the skidder operator's are.
If the skidder operator's don't care, then trees are going to be skinned up, no mater how well the skid trails are layed out, or how well the trees are layed out. Everyone has to do their job to keep leave trees from getting skinned up.

I know that in some places truck's are set up to haul short logs, but in the west you have to have enough log's cut at least 33' to "bunk out" a truck so cutting logs shorter isn't alway's an option. 
Since none of us are perfect, the more people on a crew, the less likely the unit will be layed out, felled, or skidded perfectly. There will be some leave trees skinned up. How many trees are skinned up is a result of how good the crew is, and how much they took pride in their work.

Andy


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## Curlycherry1 (Mar 5, 2010)

The one forester in charge of a kid's camp I worked on would walk each contract with the loggers in charge of the lumber cuts and he would basically point out what he thought they should do and where they should do it. He had been a logger for 15 years so he knew what needed to be done. He thought about the dropping of trees and especially the placement of skid roads when he marked the sites, and if the loggers paid attention during the walk throughs their work would be easier.

When he marked trees he often looked around and thought about the lean of the tree and if another tree was going to prevent the one he was marking from getting onto the ground easy. If it was going to go right into another tree, he would consider marking the second one as part of that cut. It was the same with skid trails. He would often mark a path where he tagged every tree to come out along a nice straight dry route. Then he would work off of that with his marking of timber to be removed. 

I got the job of removing the tops and remaining bad culls from some of those contracts and they were real easy for me to work in. The ground was often not all mashed up, few to no trees were skuffed up, and the trails were nice and straight and often had decent turn around areas in them.


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## floyd (Mar 5, 2010)

Nicely stated, Andy.


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