# Becoming and Arborist



## mattfr12

Ive been in the tree care buisness for a good while now and am looking into becoming certified i live in PA and work for Bartlett Tree Experts, the other arborists thier told me you have to work under an Arborist for 3 years before you can get certified is this true? Also can you take the test online and where to get study materials.


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## clearance

*Lie*

No, it is not true. In fact you do not have to work at all to become an ISA certified arborist. You can become one without ever having even started a saw, much less actually climbed a tree with one. And once certified you can tell experienced men who have actually done treework for years what to do, what a freakin joke that is. 

My advice is to work with experienced guys for a while and learn how to do it, for real. We have a saying "textbook hero-workplace zero", good luck.


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## mattfr12

ive been climbing trees for years for large reputable companies im in a tree 5 days a week yearly i have plenty of experience im just looking at expanding my horizon. having a certification will just make me look better, and get me a raise at work why wouldnt i want to do this? would just make me more money. Plus its a must for some of the work im looking into getting into some areas around here wont even look at you for contract work if your not an arborist?


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## mattfr12

http://www.isa-arbor.com/careersInArboriculture/resources/certifid/Carborst.pdf

Thats what i found so far is thier anyplace you can take the test online or any other information any of you other arborists have.


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## ropensaddle

mattfr12 said:


> http://www.isa-arbor.com/careersInArboriculture/resources/certifid/Carborst.pdf
> 
> Thats what i found so far is thier anyplace you can take the test online or any other information any of you other arborists have.



You can not test online you set up and pay to take the test
in your chapter or where ever they are testing you will need study
materials and is in your favor to become a member to get discounts
on the materials to pass and also testing costs.
These materials are not cheap but are tax deductible!!!!!


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## clearance

mattfr12 said:


> http://www.isa-arbor.com/careersInArboriculture/resources/certifid/Carborst.pdf
> 
> Thats what i found so far is thier anyplace you can take the test online or any other information any of you other arborists have.



There you go, like I said. I have met many ISA arborists, the ones who actually have climbed trees are the ones I respect, for the most part. It is an illusion of competence in many cases.


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## ropensaddle

Becoming an arborist is a milestone from reaching a level
of personal achievement! I would say knowledge obtained
in study would give you a clearer view of what an arborist
truly is. I used to think similar to clearance until preparing 
for the test, as a very well seasoned climber I understand
the fear of someone knowing a little more than you.
When that finally becomes a driving force to learn new
ways and practice you have caught on and learning
becomes a desire.


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Becoming an arborist is a milestone from reaching a level
> of personal achievement! I would say knowledge obtained
> in study would give you a clearer view of what an arborist
> truly is. I used to think similar to clearance until preparing
> for the test, as a very well seasoned climber I understand
> the fear of someone knowing a little more than you.
> When that finally becomes a driving force to learn new
> ways and practice you have caught on and learning
> becomes a desire.



As I said, I have respect for ISA arborists who have worked, that is, physically. I know that there is much more to trees than how to cut them down, but, the reason I have such a problem with the ISA certification is that you can become certified without ever having done anything. And thats where the problems start, and there are ISA arborists who make decisions that are just crazy, and risk peoples lives, electrical dependability and so on. 

They ask people to climb stone cold dead leaners, they leave pos big cottonwoods hanging over houses when similar ones beside them have failed, they leave trees beside the powerline, alone, when all trees around have been cut down, because that one tree had no defects (but is leans towards the line, alone). I could go on and one, but its akin to an engineer telling an ironworker how to build a bridge, when they should just give him the paln and leave. 

ISA people, unless they are experienced, competent workers, should just ask the guys that do the work for what they want-if its possible, and if its advisable. Put it another way, who do you want as your groundsman, the guy who has read some books and seen some tapes, or the guy who has pulled off a thousand tops and run saws for thousands of hours?


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## B-Edwards

The smartest guy I ever met said (I dont know). You can't learn enough ,you will never learn enough. ISA cert is a great thing to have .You will learn things in obtaining the certification that most who dont have it will not know. There are things you will only learn climbing ,felling,grinding stumps, filing saw chain, replacing clutches,ect ect ect ect ect . Get the ISA certification and be proud of it. It takes everything to be great.


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## M.D. Vaden

mattfr12 said:


> Ive been in the tree care buisness for a good while now and am looking into becoming certified i live in PA and work for Bartlett Tree Experts, the other arborists thier told me you have to work under an Arborist for 3 years before you can get certified is this true? Also can you take the test online and where to get study materials.



First and foremost, aim for becoming a "Horticulturist" in your mentality. That's often the link that's missing from a good number of "arborists" and a good number of "landscapers".

Horticulture is the pre-eminent level of landscape and grounds care, under which arboriculture, landscaping and maintenance are all placed.

You don't have to master horticulture, but you want to respect and preserve that mentality. That will help you be an even better arborist, with a more complete understanding of the big picture.

Step back for a moment, and think about what your shared . Other "arborists" led you to believe that you had to work under an arborist for a few years to become one, or be certified as one.

That conveys that either you misunderstood them, or they presented an incomplete picture of how our industry functions.

Someone can take the ISA tests for becoming a Certified Arborist via other alternatives. The alternatives could include botanical garden employment, golf course maintenance, landscape maintenance and contracting, a combination of those. Unless they changed it in the past few years, but I think the flexibility is still there.

Even a landscape architect in our town, who I believe may have virtually no professional pruning or arborist experience, qualified to take the exam and passed to become a Certified Arborist.

Now that wouldn't be the arborist which I would hire for a lot of pruning, but he did get get a college degree, a lot of his own type of experience, and learned enough tree care to get above the bar for certification.

Also, that landscape architect does something I respect - he does not work outside his league. He does not bid for professional pruning or large tree work. He uses the certification for stages and increments that he can handle.

So.... no two arborist are alike, and there are a half dozen ways of getting good at the profession. All you need to do is make sure that each step of the way is a productive and compentent step.

It sounds like you are already in a good company to help reach your goal.


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## D Mc

Matt, Go for it, you'll never regret it. I had a lot of the same, strong feelings that Clearance has before my wife started studying for her certification. Now mind you, I have been doing tree work for close to 40 years and she has been working with me for over 20. I know a lot about trees. I know a lot about trimming and removals. I was astounded by what I didn't know! And it has changed our whole perspective on how we look at things. I find the influx of knowledge to be self-perpetuating and invigorating. Clearance points out his runins with bad Cert. Arborists. That's going to happen. Nobody needs to point out how many hack and slash cutters are out there with lots of time running saws who call themselves tree men and climbers. They wouldn't recognize apical dominance if it smacked them on top of the head! 

Go for it. D Mc

Note from S Mc (the wife): When I made the decision to go for certification, I called ISA to find out about the requirements re experience. I was told to get three referrals verifying MY experience from clients for at least three years. I joined ISA and the chapter where I wanted to take the test. The study materials I found most helpful were the Arborist Certification Study Guide, Harris' book, Arboriculture, Integrated Management of Landscape Trees, Shrubs and Vines, and Shigo's A New Tree Biology. 

They will send you a list of trees for the identification portion. I would recommend you try to take your test while there are leaves on the trees if they are using live samples. (I found that out the hard way...took the test prior to leaf emergence...OMG!) I arrived at the site a day early to study the trees, as they may take samples from what is on site. Very helpful!

As my husband said, go for it. Certification has made a big difference for us. We ran into a situation this last year where the "clout" it gave us helped go against some really bad decision making on the part of the city on sidewalk issues. 

So in my instance, no I am not a high climber. I don't have "thousands of hours" climbing and wielding a saw. But I am one of the best :censored: groundsmen there is and am VERY proud that I also achieved the Certified Arborist designation and am now going to shoot for Board Certified Master Arborist.

S Mc


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## M.D. Vaden

D Mc said:


> When I made the decision to go for certification, I called ISA to find out about the requirements re experience. I was told to get three referrals verifying MY experience from clients for at least three years.



That reminds me of the flexibility of the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board, because they also accept form letters from customers - so many per year - to allow people to sit for the landscape contractor exams.

It's worked out fairly good so far, because the people still have to pass the tests anyway, and only about one in ten pass all the exams first time through.

Seems I managed to be one of the few that passed all the Oregon standard landscape exams in the first sitting, as well as passing all the ISA test domains in the first sitting.


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## treeseer

Mario, I agree about seeing arbo under the hort paradigm. We have to be much more than tree cutters if we want to make a difference, and compete against the flood of illegals.

S Mc, good luck with the BCMA. It's not easy but it demonstrates competence, and is well worth the investment. I just paid the hefty recert fee, gladly.

I got cert 15 years ago and it was a great career move.

Many see the problems clearance points out. We feel your pain! and the qualification problems are being worked on. I'm not confident they will be resolved very soon, but there they are.


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## mattfr12

Thanks for the advice guys like most of you already said in other ways im just looking at expanding my capabilities. It will get me a raise at work at wich i already am a climber. And i couldnt count the hours in a tree because i was full time at all the tree companies i worked for and climb everday except for sat/sun. I just think it will better prepare me for my service i provide.


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## D Mc

Matt, one more thing. I joined ISA when applying for the Certification as I quickly made up that cost in reduced fees on literature, books and the test itself. However, everything adds up. I bought the Cert. Study Guide but requested the other two books I mentioned above through interlibrary loan, which helped defray the costs initially. I have since purchased them to add to our reference library but at least that spread out the cost.

Good luck. S Mc


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## BostonBull

You should come up to Massachusetts and take the MCA exam. It is widely regarded as the toughest in the country. And the ISA test is based on it. When the ISA test first came out they actually "grandfathered" (just gave) MCA's their ISA certificate!

If you can pass the MCA exam not only is it more rewarding, but you'll fly through the multiple choice LOL!!! ISA test.

Good Luck and you will be that much further ahead, and more valuable to yourself and your co and clients no matter what you take and PASS.

Stay Safe!


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## RedlineIt

> can take the test online or any other information any of you other arborists have.



Test online? Nope, a pet peeve of mine. (More on that in a bit.)

Matt, I see you work for Bartlett. Ask your rep or area manager to guide you through the process. Some of the big brained Phd's that wrote the ISA Certification Study Guide have worked at or consult with the Bartlett labs in the Carolinas. Some of these Bartlett Phd's helped write the test. I'd be surprised if your office doesn't have a Study Guide to loan you.

Also, Bartlett has an in-house study program, kind of an "ISA cert lite". Buddy of mine tells me it's three chapters, I've had a look at it, easy program, knock it off over a couple of weekends, content and test questions are straight off the ISA Exam, plus you get a small cash bonus from Bartlett upon completion. Start there, if you find it tough, you maybe need more knowledge, if you find it easy, full speed ahead!

Davey Tree has a similar in-house program for it's employees, with some of the exact same study pages and test questions as the Bartlett program with the added advantage that it is available online. You need a Davey employee number to log in. Fair enough. 

Which leads me to this: I'm certified by the ISA and I'm certified in other fields. In those fields which do not require field testing, everything has gone to online testing. 

WHY is the ISA Certification Exam not online?

The way it is now, If I live in Prince George, B.C. and the testing (as it recently was available) is in Vancouver, I have to say goodbye to my family for four days, drive a solid ten hours, rerouting if my intended pass is closed due to bad weather, (which it was). Then I arrive late and intend to pay for my Hotel room which has been denied because of my late arrival. Then I drive around looking for any motel in a strange City with a vacancy sign.

Finally settled in for three hours of sleep, I need to get up early because I'm not where I intended to be for the test, splash water on my face, check my map and bolt out the door, intending to make good time to the testing site. No luck, I'm in a strange city, I'm stuck in traffic. I'm stuck in traffic that I don't know. 

------------------

Why is the ISA test NOT available online? There was nothing in the test that required that I be 1000 Km away from my family.

Why is the ISA test NOT available online? If the ISA were actually serious about being "green" they would add up the cost of the testees who must travel to their limited testing sites.

Why is the ISA test NOT available online? They're not smart enough to figure it out. I'll give the ISA a dummy on this, they don't have anyone bright enough working on it.

Why is the ISA test NOT available online? Jobs for the knobs. After all, if I could take the test online, what would cousin Freddie do?

Why is the ISA test NOT available online?

You tell me.


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## BostonBull

RedlineIt said:


> Why is the ISA test NOT available online? There was nothing in the test that required that I be 1000 Km away from my family.
> 
> Why is the ISA test NOT available online? If the ISA were actually serious about being "green" they would add up the cost of the testees who must travel to their limited testing sites.
> 
> Why is the ISA test NOT available online? They're not smart enough to figure it out. I'll give the ISA a dummy on this, they don't have anyone bright enough working on it.
> 
> Why is the ISA test NOT available online? Jobs for the knobs. After all, if I could take the test online, what would cousin Freddie do?
> 
> Why is the ISA test NOT available online?
> 
> You tell me.



I believe it is so you cant cheat. Whay make an already simple test, unfailable? You could very easily sit there with a book and look up the answers. You would have to make the test either HARDER or NON multiple choice on the ID and such.


On a side note..........its not the ISA fault you live in eastbumfuk! Move closer to a bigger city.


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## mattfr12

hey boston bull i like your dog i have a bulldog also she will be one year old dec 31.


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## Bermie

Hmmmm, anybody taken the test overseas?
I want to do the ISA exam, getting ready to review the materials, BUT will they send the test over here to our College, or will I have to buy a plane ticket to get to the 'mainland' do sit a three hour exam?

Suppose I really should ask them direct... 

PS, I agree with Clearance...in my opinion the ISA Certified Arborist is of much more value if the holder is or has been a climber as well.
Applied knowledge PLUS theoretical knowledge makes for a better certification in our field at this level.

I already have a string of UK qualifications, but I feel it is to my advantage to keep adding a more to diversify the range of qualifications, not only are you then 'multi faceted' but you refresh your study skills and come across new information every time you set to studying for another bit of paper....let the learning continue.....


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## RedlineIt

> I believe it is so you cant cheat.



Cheat who? If I refer to texts to pass the test, I will refer to those texts when I discuss tree work with the client.

I don't want to cheat myself, I don't want to cheat my involvement in the ISA.

But if the ISA can't figure out an online test, they're not ready for the 21rst century.

As to living outside of some ####wads prefered circle of Urban centres or be left behind: It's an obsolete mindset, I'm unconcerened.

If the ISA is indeed stuck with the likes of him, I am quite prepared to procede without him, happily so.



RedlineIt


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## BostonBull

RedlineIt said:


> Cheat who? If I refer to texts to pass the test, I will refer to those texts when I discuss tree work with the client.
> 
> I don't want to cheat myself, I don't want to cheat my involvement in the ISA.
> 
> But if the ISA can't figure out an online test, they're not ready for the 21rst century.
> 
> As to living outside of some ####wads prefered circle of Urban centres or be left behind: It's an obsolete mindset, I'm unconcerened.
> 
> If the ISA is indeed stuck with the likes of him, I am quite prepared to procede without him, happily so.
> 
> 
> 
> RedlineIt



It is meant to be a CLOSED book exam. Pretty straight forward. So if you use text or any other cliff notes etc you will in fact be cheating by their definition.

if it was OPEN book ANYONE could pass it. I hope you dont bring text,manulas etc to customers property thats not very proffessional IMO. I wouldnt want a doctor to tell me I think I got it, while thumbing through his text book!  

BERMIE

Come take the MCA exam and the ISA all at the same time. You'll have the highest regarded Arborist exam in america done and then the 'other' one.


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## clearance

I think many missed my point, I have no beef with arborists having anything to do with trees, except telling treeguys how to do thier job. And having much to do with trees around powerlines. Thats it. I know there is a massive amount of knowlege out there, arborists play a valuable role. All I know how to do well is cut them down. Each to his own, no disrespect meant to arborists who use thier education to help.


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## Davey Dog

clearance said:


> I think many missed my point, I have no beef with arborists having anything to do with trees, except telling treeguys how to do thier job. And having much to do with trees around powerlines. Thats it. I know there is a massive amount of knowlege out there, arborists play a valuable role. All I know how to do well is cut them down. Each to his own, no disrespect meant to arborists who use thier education to help.



x's 2!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with you 1000%. We have a lot of text book heroes around Cali. What an f***ing joke most of them are. I would love to have that feather in my cap. And at some point will go for my isa certs. BUT, I have been climbing for a long time now and have the real world experience to back up my fancy papers.........:chainsawguy:

P.S. That MCA exam, now theres a test. I would love to try for that one in the future, but its a long ways off from what i have heard about it. Kudos to the men and woman who have passed it.


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## BostonBull

Davey Dog said:


> P.S. That MCA exam, now theres a test. I would love to try for that one in the future, but its a long ways off from what i have heard about it. Kudos to the men and woman who have passed it.




Thanks!


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## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> You should come up to Massachusetts and take the MCA exam. It is widely regarded as the toughest in the country. And the ISA test is based on it. When the ISA test first came out they actually "grandfathered" (just gave) MCA's their ISA certificate!
> 
> If you can pass the MCA exam not only is it more rewarding, but you'll fly through the multiple choice LOL!!! ISA test.
> 
> Good Luck and you will be that much further ahead, and more valuable to yourself and your co and clients no matter what you take and PASS.
> 
> Stay Safe!



Massawhatits not me I have more respect for myself than to go into
those parts of the world :hmm3grin2orange:


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## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> Massawhatits not me I have more respect for myself than to go into
> those parts of the world :hmm3grin2orange:




Careful.......................


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## ropensaddle

BostonBull said:


> Careful.......................



Just given you guff, I would never want to go there as I am a country boy
and would feel like a fish out of water. So get your neck hairs down there
pit pup just joking ya!


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## BostonBull

ropensaddle said:


> Just given you guff, I would never want to go there as I am a country boy
> and would feel like a fish out of water. So get your neck hairs down there
> pit pup just joking ya!



As DonnyO says, we are fiercly loyal...........Merry X-Mas!


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## treeseer

Redline, if you feel so strongly about the test being online, you must have said that on that member survey that you filled out. Plus, you have sent your well-considered opinion to the staff and the committee. Right???

BCMA is online, at centers where proctors will prevent cheating. nO reason i can see not to do the other 3 tests that way.

Bull, I take texts and manuals into the field all the time. It builds credibility while giving the client the gbest service, and avoiding the usual bs opinion: "This tree has seen better days; time to remove it."

:spam:


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## beowulf343

Personally, I'm not a big fan of certified arborists. Frankly, the test is too easy, and like people have already said there are ca's who have barely had anything to do with trees. For example, if i hire a certified electrician, i expect him to know everything about wiring a house-he doesn't just specialize in 110 and leaves the 220 for someone else. It's part of the reason i haven't got my certification. There are a couple areas of tree work i'm very weak on. But if i were to tell someone i am a ca, they are going to believe i know everything about trees, and that is just false advertising. I think the test needs to be harder so that the ca's are a more elite bunch. (Of course, then the isa won't be receiving as many dues.)


Frankly, i let my work speak for itself-i don't need a couple of letters after my name to fool people into thinking i know a thing or two about trees.


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## ropensaddle

beowulf343 said:


> Personally, I'm not a big fan of certified arborists. Frankly, the test is too easy, and like people have already said there are ca's who have barely had anything to do with trees. For example, if i hire a certified electrician, i expect him to know everything about wiring a house-he doesn't just specialize in 110 and leaves the 220 for someone else. It's part of the reason i haven't got my certification. There are a couple areas of tree work i'm very weak on. But if i were to tell someone i am a ca, they are going to believe i know everything about trees, and that is just false advertising. I think the test needs to be harder so that the ca's are a more elite bunch. (Of course, then the isa won't be receiving as many dues.)
> 
> 
> Frankly, i let my work speak for itself-i don't need a couple of letters after my name to fool people into thinking i know a thing or two about trees.



I have not taken the test yet but do not feel it to be easy
at all and continuing education to keep it means more study.
I do feel it is a starting point and a degree in horticulture is
more a set apart from the rest but why would it make any
differance unless you plan to use the education? I see the
jobs listed on their site and laugh at the pay for a certified
arborist I don't see monetary benefits but knowledge and
a better self esteem yes!


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## D Mc

I studied right along side my wife as she was working towards her certification. I don't think it's too easy. As a matter of fact, I'm sure I couldn't pass the test. It's not that I don't know trees, it is just that it requires you to produce specifics on the many topics: nutrition, biology, fertilization, dendrology, safety, rigging, climbing, among others. Through my years in the tree industry I have a strong working knowledge of all these areas but have difficulty actually sitting down and taking the test. I didn't finish school for that exact reason. I applaud anybody that has the ability to pass the exam. Is it the pinnacle of what an arborist is? No. Does it even mean you are going to be a decent person to deal with? No. But in studying for and passing the test, it is a base line for a career in arboriculture. 

D Mc

I do find it ironic that many of you have missed a point here. Many are saying as how they haven't met a good cert arb or are claiming that they are only "book learned". The original poster here is an experienced tree guy, working for many years in the business as a climber. Why on earth aren't you encouraging him to pursue becoming a Certified Arborist so that he can be one of the (apparently) few who actually knows the whole business?

I will also state that Certified Arborist is the beginning...if you want that person who does know it all, the designation is BOARD CERTIFIED MASTER ARBORIST. If you want someone who can DO it...you have to find a qualified climber. And I'm sorry, guys, but there are a lot of climbers out there who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a tree with a saw. 

S Mc


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## treeseer

D Mc said:


> .if you want that person who does know it all, the designation is BOARD CERTIFIED MASTER ARBORIST. If you want someone who can DO it...you have to find a qualified climber. And I'm sorry, guys, but there are a lot of climbers out there who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a tree with a saw.


Ouch! That's the best reason to get the CA, to understand trees better before cutting on them, and making kinder cuts.

O and many other BCMAs are also Certified Tree Workers, in the saddle regularly to keep their hands on trees and learn from them. We all need to find a balance between field and book learning if we want to be competent at our jobs.


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## Fast Freddy

D Mc said:


> Why on earth aren't you encouraging him to pursue becoming a Certified Arborist so that he can be one of the (apparently) few who actually knows the whole business?
> 
> I will also state that Certified Arborist is the beginning...if you want that person who does know it all, the designation is BOARD CERTIFIED MASTER ARBORIST.
> 
> S Mc



I gotta say missy, if you are pursuing a BCMA, this is a pretty poor attitude. Believe it or not, some of us doers actually know a thing or two they don't teach in the books. It's often argued that getting your certification proves that a person is willing to learn. Yet the attitude you display shows that a BCMA doesn't need to learn anything more because they already know it all. 

Being a CA doesn't prove that someone knows the whole business. Arborists specialize in so many different aspects of tree work, i'm not sure someone could be an expert in them all. I personally know CA's who work in greenhouses, in nurseries, as trimmers, as removal men, as bucket operators, as climbers, as groundies, as line clearance trimmers, as city foresters, as loggers, as fellers, as teachers of environmental sciences, as landscapers, and the list can go on. Now a CA may know a little about a lot of these different aspects of treework, but can they possibly know everything about them all? It's a continuing learning experience for us all. Heck, i've been in the tree business for decades, yet a young punk showed me something a few weeks back that I didn't know. 

This is my biggest gripe with the whole certification thing. Too many are not willing to listen because they think they know it all. Not saying all CA's are bad because I've worked with some that know their stuff. But this attitude seems to have become more prevelant among the younger CA's.


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## D Mc

Fast Freddy, I actually totally agree with you. And I am sorry that my comment that BCMAs "know it all" was misconstrued as meaning that they then don't have to KEEP learning. However, to obtain the BCMA is a conscientious dedication to a great deal of learning and active field work. Missy?

Any Certification in and of itself is meaningless unless you constantly strive to improve your skills and knowledge. However, it is a regulated baseline. So if anyone wants to go for it...do it. Again, missy??

I had the wonderful circumstance of having a live in mentor who is immensely experienced in the business and so was (and am on an ongoing basis) able to run questions and thoughts by him. The dialog is constant and we discuss new ideas or articles one of us has read. I don't just sit in the office. My husband and I ARE the company. He is the high climber and I am the ground crew. I am now able to answer client's questions on my own without waiting for him to get out of the tree. This has only made us a more valid company. Of course, the fact that, even after almost 40 years, he is still the best climber/trimmer many of you could hope to see is an irreplaceable asset. MISSY???

But really, Freddy, missy???

SMc


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## M.D. Vaden

beowulf343 said:


> Personally, I'm not a big fan of certified arborists. Frankly, the test is too easy, and like people have already said there are ca's who have barely had anything to do with trees.



I've got a few Franklies that come to mind too, having just wrote a big topic on this subject yesterday.

The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, there are still quite a few people who don't pass the test.

The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, in no way does it stop a homeowner from expecting even more.

The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, I've seen a couple of folks with Masters degrees who were less skilled in the field.

The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, it can't be taken and passed with no experience of any kind.

I suppose it would be nice if the test covered more territory, but on the other hand, it would be unrealistic to expect a rather new certification program to be on par with other professions like medical or electrical that have had much more time to develop systems for qualification.

The point is, the Certified Arborist system is slowly improving, and is better than doing nothing. It can be incrementally added to just the way that virtually every other profession did.

It's basically "acclimatizing" a profession to testing. To dump 4 times the testing on arborists right now, would be as harsh as taking a greenhouse shrub from Washington, and planting it in the middle of Ontario, Canada.


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> I've got a few Franklies that come to mind too, having just wrote a big topic on this subject yesterday.
> 
> The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, there are still quite a few people who don't pass the test.
> 
> The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, in no way does it stop a homeowner from expecting even more.
> 
> The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, I've seen a couple of folks with Masters degrees who were less skilled in the field.
> 
> The test may not be real hard, but Frankly, it can't be taken and passed with no experience of any kind.
> 
> I suppose it would be nice if the test covered more territory, but on the other hand, it would be unrealistic to expect a rather new certification program to be on par with other professions like medical or electrical that have had much more time to develop systems for qualification.
> 
> The point is, the Certified Arborist system is slowly improving, and is better than doing nothing. It can be incrementally added to just the way that virtually every other profession did.
> 
> It's basically "acclimatizing" a profession to testing. To dump 4 times the testing on arborists right now, would be as harsh as taking a greenhouse shrub from Washington, and planting it in the middle of Ontario, Canada.


I totally agree 100% especially until me takes test:monkey:


----------



## Sprig

BostonBull said:


> It is meant to be a CLOSED book exam. Pretty straight forward. So if you use text or any other cliff notes etc you will in fact be cheating by their definition.
> 
> if it was OPEN book ANYONE could pass it. I hope you dont bring text,manulas etc to customers property thats not very proffessional IMO. *I wouldnt want a doctor to tell me I think I got it, while thumbing through his text book! *
> 
> BERMIE
> 
> Come take the MCA exam and the ISA all at the same time. You'll have the highest regarded Arborist exam in america done and then the 'other' one.


Bermie, I agree with ya on the ISA exams and its obvious to me that they want to be sure people know their stuff, ergo no on-line testing though I'm sure there are many things that _could _be covered sitting at a PC, heck I've learned more on-line (here in particular and on my PC geek site) than I probably ever could in a classroom (I am a motivated learner though which I suppose makes a difference.)
Now, on what I bolded in your quote (Bostonbull), hm, this was exactly why I chose my doctor many years ago, fresh out of med college and very green. I came to her with a problem that was perplexing and instead of coming up with a line of BS and guessing, she outright said 'Wow, I don't know, lets do some reading.' and proceeded to look up a few things and gaining a great deal of respect from me for her honesty and willingness to hit the books and dig into a problem. Medicine is a huge field and no one doctor is going to know everything which is why they specialize and having one who is willing to admit that they don't know something and do the reading is special to me. I've been under her care for nearly 20yrs now and she's also become a surgeon in that time and never stops learning, me like  Just thought I'd point out this aspect as I think it applies to many areas of specialization including tree work/arborculture. There are many 'never-ending' learning curves and I have found that far too many folks get comphy on a plateau and refuse to move forward or refresh their knowledge base (keep up to date etc.), change habits or gain new insight. Granted there are those who simply aren't that bright, but some of them can be among the best at what they do, especially if the enjoy/love what they do. (ramble ramble, gah)
To the OP, more power to ya man you have a great attitude and I wish you the best in your endeavors! You have also been given some excellent advice from those in the know too, take heed!
Okay, blathered and de-railed enough here for now 



Serge


----------



## treeseer

Sprig said:


> instead of coming up with a line of BS and guessing, she outright said 'Wow, I don't know, lets do some reading.' and proceeded to look up a few things and gaining a great deal of respect from me for her honesty and willingness to hit the books and dig into a problem.



Sherlock Holmes: "Don't theorize without the facts."

Clients enjoy being in on the mystery, seeing me paging through the references and pointing to the plant or pest they are wondering about.

Doctors who theorize first can be dangerous. If they guess "lymphoma" before looking at the evidence closely, they can miss leukemia, and the untreated or mistreated patient gets closer to death.

This is no good, believe me.

:censored:


----------



## OLD CHIPMONK

The test is fairly simple , as long as you study. Former ISA Arborist. Former licensed spray applicator. Now just a tree chopper, with style. Also former Golf Course Superintendent. Senior Golfer without style.


----------



## underwor

I understand why the ISA test is closed book. They are testing for a good general knowledge of the field. There are specific questions to be sure, but the aim of the test in the 80's when it was developed was that the average scores would be around 85%. This would be the center of a normal bell curve with 100 for the top and 70 for the failing range. It does not show that a person is an expert, only that they have a good working knowledge of the field. We have all known someone who passed, but chooses not to follow the path that they know is right. Many yield to temptation. 

However, in real life you better know where to look up the answers. After 40 years in the field and teaching, I have come to realize that there are many things that I don't know. I have the most beat up textbooks in the classroom since they ride in the back seat of my truck all summer. I give most of my tests open book and on a few they can consult with their peers. This second category results in lower grades, since there is always someone with the wrong answer but a good argument. When they complain, I tell them that there will always be dissenting opinions (in personal communications and in advertising), it is up to them to sort fact from fiction or BS. If they have not studied enough in advance or do not know where to look it up quickly, they are going to left with the option of saying nothing or making a wild ass guess, neither of which will impress the client. 

I guess I also want the doctor who will look things up if they are not sure.


----------



## BostonBull

I guess I I was unclear.

I don't want a doctor to carry text books everywhere, because they don't know ANY answers. 

CA are different from other certified fields. We study whatever materials we can and sit for a test thats a few hours. Most other standardized fields, doctors, electricians, linesman, etc etc Got to school from 4-8 years+! And they test out on almost every different level of knowledge you can think of. Now if a Doctor doesn't know a simple one and refers to texts, yes I would be nervous. But the case of Lymphoma that was mentioned above I believe to be much different.

CA will hopefully one day be in the upper echelon of standardized training like some of these other fields. Then there will be no argument that we are needed. Right now everyone views the test, and organization as a money pit. And most CA as Good Ol Boys. 

Keep up the good work, and never stop learning!


----------



## beastmaster

My work offers a two dollar raise if we get our cert. I have been climbing trees for over 20 years and have lots of tree knowlege in my head. After takeing and passing the test last year, I not only got my raise, but that peice of paper has gotten me a lot more respect, even though I only gained a small emont of new knowlege. The test wasn't that hard, but does cover areas I normally wouldn't of known to much about. Take the test. I lost some of the respect I had for CA's, seeing how easy the test was, but gained a lot of respect from peers and public. Funny how that works.


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## clearance

beastmaster;850342} I lost some of the respect I had for CA's said:


> Wow, what a kick in the balls, so, now Beast knows the truth. Good for getting the raise Beast, have a good new year.


----------



## BostonBull

The ISA test IS a JOKE!!!! I will always say this until they change the format. 

Multipl choice on ID section?


----------



## treeseer

kick in the what? Sheesh. You guys are in a slamfest. 
:angry2: 



BostonBull said:


> Right now everyone views the test, and organization as a money pit. And most CA as Good Ol Boys.


 I agree that the test and the ceu process should be firmed up, but Not "everyone", and not "most". Pride in the state test is a good thing, but the ISA's scope is different from MA's, so its cert structure is too.


----------



## clearance

treeseer said:


> kick in the what? Sheesh.



The pain will go away, give it time.


----------



## lxt

D Mc said:


> I will also state that Certified Arborist is the beginning...if you want that person who does know it all, the designation is BOARD CERTIFIED MASTER ARBORIST. If you want someone who can DO it...you have to find a qualified climber. And I'm sorry, guys, but there are a lot of climbers out there who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a tree with a saw.
> 
> S Mc



LOL...... there are also alot of Cert. Arborists that shouldnt be allowed around tree(s) let alone be allowed around chainsaws, goes both ways!! I just went through a situation regarding an arborist(BTW" he dont go up there").

Look Matt, I live in the same neck of the woods as you, CA wont really mean much in W. PA, If its for gettin a raise at work by all means, Honestly I have a very good Rep with most of the towns, municipalities, cities, etc... they know Im not a Cert. Arborist.....BUT also know that I am very knowlegeable & do good work over & above what is necessary!!! I have training/reading aides that dont even deal with PA & honestly I would go to Mass. for certification before the ISA.

ISA is a member driven organization, more members more money!! & its all about the money!! I no doubt will probably get my CA credential but only for purposes of obtaining contracts, I wont be proud!! because this hallmark is not out of pride, self betterment, care of trees, etc... its so you fit the lobbying status quo & become a good ole boy.... then your able to get contracts.

Funny Ive got more schooling, training & aerial exp. than any CA in my area, the ISA & others would have you beleive this Cert. is needed & is above & beyond what you already have!!! LOL.....

let me see: 21yrs exp, (True) LCTT Cert., 5yr apprenticeship, 2 yrs classroom instruction, pest/herb applicators license, first aide/cpr, Cdl class A all endorsements, operators Certification on just about all machinery in the tree care realm, continued education through ACRT & very familiar with ANSI regulations...................MMMmmmmm I may have missed something???? it`ll come to me after I post!! But anyway this dont mean squat to the ISA, cause their CA designation is the best & none of what you do or have done will ever measure up........unless they can get your money from such!!


LXT................ BTW, for those who wonder what a true LCTT Cert is, if your wondering you probably dont have it!! now a days the utility tree co`s just give you a multiple choice 50 question test & your certified, takes about 18-24 months LOL....


----------



## clearance

lxt said:


> LOL...... there are also alot of Cert. Arborists that shouldnt be allowed around tree(s) let alone be allowed around chainsaws, goes both ways!! I just went through a situation regarding an arborist(BTW" he dont go up there").
> 
> Look Matt, I live in the same neck of the woods as you, CA wont really mean much in W. PA, If its for gettin a raise at work by all means, Honestly I have a very good Rep with most of the towns, municipalities, cities, etc... they know Im not a Cert. Arborist.....BUT also know that I am very knowlegeable & do good work over & above what is necessary!!! I have training/reading aides that dont even deal with PA & honestly I would go to Mass. for certification before the ISA.
> 
> ISA is a member driven organization, more members more money!! & its all about the money!! I no doubt will probably get my CA credential but only for purposes of obtaining contracts, I wont be proud!! because this hallmark is not out of pride, self betterment, care of trees, etc... its so you fit the lobbying status quo & become a good ole boy.... then your able to get contracts.
> 
> Funny Ive got more schooling, training & aerial exp. than any CA in my area, the ISA & others would have you beleive this Cert. is needed & is above & beyond what you already have!!! LOL.....
> 
> let me see: 21yrs exp, (True) LCTT Cert., 5yr apprenticeship, 2 yrs classroom instruction, pest/herb applicators license, first aide/cpr, Cdl class A all endorsements, operators Certification on just about all machinery in the tree care realm, continued education through ACRT & very familiar with ANSI regulations...................MMMmmmmm I may have missed something???? it`ll come to me after I post!! But anyway this dont mean squat to the ISA, cause their CA designation is the best & none of what you do or have done will ever measure up........unless they can get your money from such!!
> 
> 
> LXT................ BTW, for those who wonder what a true LCTT Cert is, if your wondering you probably dont have it!! now a days the utility tree co`s just give you a multiple choice 50 question test & your certified, takes about 18-24 months LOL....



Perfect, but the ISA will take your money too, even after all the badmouthing you have done to them. Hey, Treesseer, make note of this man, who does not toe the party line and mocks the ISA so, and see to it he never gets to be ISA certified. Traitorous fellow that he is. 

I am starting to see, in the last year, to my amusement, the ISA taking many beatings here. The cracks are showing through, its all good.


----------



## lxt

WOW clearance!! having me banned from the ISA.....LOL

Look.....its a certification not a license, I just think that just because you have it doesnt make you more special or anything!! In my situation(which may be rare) I read, study & seek out new methods in my trade, I try to stay on top of the industry trends as well the pitfalls too. when someone such as myself has the training & exp. that I do!! I dont think the ISA CA is going to make me any better.

I do think this industry needs regulated, I am not a fan of the ISA I think they provide a wonderful source of education materials, but to think they provide a Certification that is better than, equal to, or just a plain neccessity to be able to work in this field is absurd!!

I truely would only get the cert because I see some areas that want you to have it to work there!! why is this? most know how I feel about the ISA & that wont change untill regulations are in place, a non climbing arborist.........but on paper they`re better than me??? LOL there are so many designations for Arborist its funny, lets see....... Non-climbing arborist, Consulting Arborist, Municipal Arborist, Utility Arborist &.....drum roll....... the all high & mighty BOARD CERTIFIED MASTER ARBORIST( spoken with reverb) 

Its all about Money, yes Clearance they`ll take mine when/if I decide to take the exam, it sure isnt the NAA that I remember!! thats when an arborist was all the things mentioned above & then some, they even were required to climb can you imagine?.... the nerve of em back then wanting an Arborist to actually climb trees!! 

LXT...............


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## clearance

The nerve, I can't imagine. Your list there, non climbing arborist, consluting arborist, municipal arborist, utility arborist. They are all non climbing arborists.

I have a huge beef with non climbing utility arborists telling working utility arborists (who's training makes the ISA utility cert. look stupid) how to do thier job. When they authorize violations of established safety practices, they are going to get some one killed. And then what-sorry?


----------



## BRCCArborist

Just out of curiosity, for LXT and Clearance, since neither of you appear to be certified (which is fine, nothing wrong with that at all), how do you know how "easy" the exams are? They are confidential exams.


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## clearance

BRCCArborist said:


> Just out of curiosity, for LXT and Clearance, since neither of you appear to be certified (which is fine, nothing wrong with that at all), how do you know how "easy" the exams are? They are confidential exams.



Beastmaster just told us, post on the bottom of the previous page. Of course I knew that the test couldn't be all that hard, after I met up with some ISA arborists and listened to some of thier retarded ideas. And from the crazy stuff I see them do (I mean have done cause lots of them can't climb, looks like they can barely climb out of bed). Such as plant trees under powerlines, make wildlife trees that lean over trails, private backyards, etc. How much time do you have there BRCC?


----------



## BRCCArborist

As far as climbing goes, I have very little experience except for a climbing class I took one semester at school. Yes, I know you are probably laughing about that, but before you fall off the chair, I will tell you that I have very, very little to do with that side of arboriculture at my job. I am not a climbing arborist, nor do I claim to be. I dont even oversee that kind of thing for the most part. I mainly deal with pests, diseases, and general homeowner questions. For me, as a younger guy, the ISA Certification was the best choice I could make, cause it opened up doors for me to get the great part time job I have now, which in turn allows me a flexible schedule to finish up my degree(finally). I don't claim to know every single thing about tree care, I just focus on what I feel is my specialty. The ISA Certification shows that you have a well rounded, GENERAL knowledge of trees, and I think most other CA's will agree with this. You seem like a totally knowledgeable and experienced person, and you can bet that if and when I ever have to write a specification on takedowns or large scale pruning, I hope that I can consult with a climber like you. Until then, I just stick to what I know.


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## clearance

Thank you Ryan, thats one of the most honest and forthright things I have heard from an ISA arborist. I am not laughing, you put your cards on the table. That is a very big thing with me. I only really know how to cut down or trim trees around powerlines. Thats it, I have little knowledge of trees otherwise. 

So, you are the kind of guy I would ask advice from, if I was selecting trees or wondered what was wrong with some trees. Each to his own area. The problem I have is when arborists step outside of thier fields of knowledge. I may not be so diplomatic about that, I do not mean to offend straight shooters such as yourself.

Cheers/Jim


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## BRCCArborist

No offense taken Jim. I am very proud of my ISA Certification, and I'm glad I was able to pass the test. I recommend it to anyone. But I'm still looking forward to getting the hands on experience over the years like veterans of the industry such as yourself. 

Thanks


----------



## mattfr12

i climb trees 6 days a week year round mon-sat. only reason i want the cert is a raise at work. its like 2-3$ an hour.


----------



## BC WetCoast

I totally disagree with you clearance and lxt on the need for CA to be able to climb. I come from an industrial forestry background (a Registered Professional Forester). When I designed logging road and cutblocks, I didn't need to know all the intricacies of falling or running an excavator. All I said was this is where the road goes and those are the trees that will be cut, make it so. 

Same for a CA. When I make a prescription, I'm not telling the climber how to do the work, only what work needs to be done. Big difference. I may tell him how to do the work, but that would only be within a training scenario.

Finally, as someone else said, the CA is only a certification. As such, it has value only if a customer perceives it to have value (as the holder of a couple of expensive but now worthless certifications). Around here, the certification obviously has value, because the municipalities require a CA to do tree assessment and arborist reports (not someone who is a very good climber).

The ISA has done a very good marketing job, by getting the public to believe that only a CA has the qualifications to take care of their trees. Not the first time the public has had their attitudes defined by marketing. But if the public believes that a CA is required, then the CA certification has value.


----------



## lxt

BRCCArborist said:


> Just out of curiosity, for LXT and Clearance, since neither of you appear to be certified (which is fine, nothing wrong with that at all), how do you know how "easy" the exams are? They are confidential exams.



Well, I have the arborist cert. study guide & if the questions in there reflect the ones on the test then it is easy, the only part I would need to really study on would be fertilizers & application of chemical treatments, I also know many Arb`s that took the test through the Union I used to be a member of, test was through the Pen-Del Chapter.

What do you mean me & clearance arent Certified? This is exactly what I mean, did you read my previous posts, Not Certified.....Horse s*&t !!! Not ISA certified....... But certified in every other facet of the field! which is more than most ISA arb`s I know have!!

Funny how all the guys from my union at the time went to get their cert. were union stewards & officers, even they said the only reason they got the cert. was so the inspectors would think they were more knowlegeable..... was kinda a joke amongst all of us, & funnier yet.... when they needed help on some big trim or Removal...... they`d ask for me!! 

I would make it known the cert. arb`s needed my help, which usually meant they were helping me as I`d get stuck doing the whole damn thing anyway, me & other guys just for fun would make our own cert. out of our kids crayons bring em in & give it to the GF, We figured it was just as good!!!

LXT...................


----------



## lxt

BC WetCoast said:


> I totally disagree with you clearance and lxt on the need for CA to be able to climb. I come from an industrial forestry background (a Registered Professional Forester). When I designed logging road and cutblocks, I didn't need to know all the intricacies of falling or running an excavator. All I said was this is where the road goes and those are the trees that will be cut, make it so.
> 
> Same for a CA. When I make a prescription, I'm not telling the climber how to do the work, only what work needs to be done. Big difference. I may tell him how to do the work, but that would only be within a training scenario.
> 
> Finally, as someone else said, the CA is only a certification. As such, it has value only if a customer perceives it to have value (as the holder of a couple of expensive but now worthless certifications). Around here, the certification obviously has value, because the municipalities require a CA to do tree assessment and arborist reports (not someone who is a very good climber).
> 
> The ISA has done a very good marketing job, by getting the public to believe that only a CA has the qualifications to take care of their trees. Not the first time the public has had their attitudes defined by marketing. But if the public believes that a CA is required, then the CA certification has value.




You are kidding? Arborist`s that dont climb...........MMmmmm all I can say is Nice!! but they wanna oversee me? tell me how to trim, remove, etc... The problem I see is some of these folks get their Cert. & think they are to good for the physical side of it but want the money cause they have the paper!!

Alot of these certified jokes cant even be a good groundie, thats sad!! BC you dont agree with me or clearance thats cool, I dont know how old you are or how long you`ve been in this field, But when ISA was the NAA climbing was a requirement not an option, *Dont you feel embarassed to know the Certification you now hold has been diluted & cheapened for the sake of obtaining more members, which means more money* think on that!!

*Your Cert has no value if you have to hire someone to do the above ground work, the public will soon wonder why< you wont fool them for long!!* where I live this is exactly what is happening, town Arborist`s dont climb(most anyway). So when they need an inspection of the crown or other above ground task they call me, I always ask why didnt your arborist do this? its his job, its what you hired him for!! Most people dealing in the trades started at the bottom & through education have moved up!! not the opposite.


LXT....................


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## treeseer

lxt said:


> when ISA was the NAA climbing was a requirement .


NOw that the rant has whipped you two into a fever pitch and major delusions, let me point out that the ISA was never the NAA.  

Also, let's all agree that all certifications improve those who have them, because they prove heir knowledge and ability.

Let's also agree that anyone who specifies work they do not understand, without trying to consult with others more knowledgeable, so they can get it right, is a fraud and a menace. However, have a little sympathy for the bloke who is dumped into a municipal job with a lot of responsibility and without the qualifications to handle it.

One city here dumped their utility forester into the arborist position because he has a CA. This hack condemns valuable trees because of slight leans and dead branches, but the city won't pay to have him trained in tree risk management.

I have all 4 ISA certs, and EHAP etc., but I would not be caught dead telling a PHC specialist how to apply chemicals, or a line clearance technician in a bucket what pole to use. I may know climbing better than they do, but climbing is just one aspect of the business.


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> What do you mean me & clearance arent Certified? This is exactly what I mean, did you read my previous posts, Not Certified.....Horse s*&t !!! Not ISA certified....... But certified in every other facet of the field! which is more than most ISA arb`s I know have!!



Not to bust your chops but that means your QUALIFIED......NOT Certified. Certified implicates you have received a CERTIFICATE, CERTIFYING you in a certain field. You have none so your not certified.


----------



## BRCCArborist

lxt said:


> Well, I have the arborist cert. study guide & if the questions in there reflect the ones on the test then it is easy, the only part I would need to really study on would be fertilizers & application of chemical treatments, I also know many Arb`s that took the test through the Union I used to be a member of, test was through the Pen-Del Chapter.
> 
> What do you mean me & clearance arent Certified? This is exactly what I mean, did you read my previous posts, Not Certified.....Horse s*&t !!! Not ISA certified....... But certified in every other facet of the field! which is more than most ISA arb`s I know have!!
> 
> Funny how all the guys from my union at the time went to get their cert. were union stewards & officers, even they said the only reason they got the cert. was so the inspectors would think they were more knowlegeable..... was kinda a joke amongst all of us, & funnier yet.... when they needed help on some big trim or Removal...... they`d ask for me!!
> 
> I would make it known the cert. arb`s needed my help, which usually meant they were helping me as I`d get stuck doing the whole damn thing anyway, me & other guys just for fun would make our own cert. out of our kids crayons bring em in & give it to the GF, We figured it was just as good!!!
> 
> LXT...................




Well I should have stated "ISA Certification", so I apologize. What I was driving at however is that this thread was started by a guy who was simply looking for some advice on studying for and passing the ISA Certified Arborist exam. Why use that as an excuse to bash the certification? If CA's are coming to you for advice, then why are you complaining? Sounds like you are getting along in the industry just fine. But for me, the ISA Certification has been really good for me and what I want to do in my career. I think its a great supplement to my 2 year degree and 6+ years experience (Nursery/landscape, pest management). Thats just my opinion, I certainly dont know or claim to know everything on tree care. If you are doing fine without the CA tag, great! Im just saying that , for many people, its definately something worth working towards obtaining while getting the experience at the same time.


----------



## lxt

I stand corrected TCIA was formerly NAA, sorry!! But the standard was still a lot higher than what it is now!!

Bostonbull, I am a certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer, have passed testing requirements set forth by ACRT in other aspects of the field also, etc..etc..

the LCTT certification was done through the Dept of Labor & Industry & JATC, My apprenticeship training & scholastic acheivements(spelling) are I beleive on a level over & above anything the ISA has to offer.

I am not ranting please dont take it as such, I just dont beleive in Non-climbing Arborists, thats a joke!!! sorry if this offends, if it does offend you wait till you work for some of the bigger companies, guys in the field will bust your chops constantly the CA designation is considered a money grabbing joke. sorry!!!!!

LXT....................


----------



## BRCCArborist

lxt said:


> I am not ranting please dont take it as such, I just dont beleive in Non-climbing Arborists, thats a joke!!! sorry if this offends, if it does offend you wait till you work for some of the bigger companies, guys in the field will bust your chops constantly the CA designation is considered a money grabbing joke. sorry!!!!!
> 
> LXT....................




You do have to admit though, that there is much more to arboriculture than just climbing. There are plenty of pests, diseases, drainage and soil issues (pH, nutrient deficiency) that need to be diagnosed and treated. What trees to plant, and where to plant them, dealing with contractors when developers want to preserve trees, evaluating a hazardous tree and finding ways to mitigate the hazard are all issues that need to be dealt with on a daily basis. Dont even get me started on things like Gypsy Moth suppression (which is a large part of my job in the fall) that involve surveying, writing reports to the state dept of agriculture to approve spraying, dealing with water and wildlife issues, confused homeowners, and lots of GIS and GPS software  . 

I know how to climb, and I own all the essential gear to do so. I just do not do it at my job, nor would I feel confident in telling an arborist the correct way to climb, other than making sure they follow safety guidelines to the letter. I just dont have that kind of experience yet. So, I dont do it, it is not my specialty, and I will admit that. Every doctor, auto mechanic, gunsmith, lawyer, construction worker, etc, has areas they excel in and specialize in, and other areas they only have a general or somewhat limited idea of, arborists are no different in my opinion.


----------



## Sprig

lxt said:


> I stand corrected TCIA was formerly NAA, sorry!! But the standard was still a lot higher than what it is now!!
> 
> Bostonbull, I am a certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer, have passed testing requirements set forth by ACRT in other aspects of the field also, etc..etc..
> 
> the LCTT certification was done through the Dept of Labor & Industry & JATC, My apprenticeship training & scholastic acheivements(spelling) are I beleive on a level over & above anything the ISA has to offer.
> 
> I am not ranting please dont take it as such, *I just dont beleive in Non-climbing Arborists, thats a joke!!!* sorry if this offends, if it does offend you wait till you work for some of the bigger companies, guys in the field will bust your chops constantly the CA designation is considered a money grabbing joke. sorry!!!!!
> 
> LXT....................


If you don't mean a ha-ha joke that is sad for people like me who'd one day like to have some sort of certification (even if for consulting purposes), since climbing stairs fer me can be a chore let alone a tree. Do love trees though...............hmmmmmmmm.



Serge


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> I am not ranting please dont take it as such, I just dont beleive in Non-climbing Arborists, thats a joke!!! sorry if this offends, if it does offend you wait till you work for some of the bigger companies, guys in the field will bust your chops constantly the CA designation is considered a money grabbing joke. sorry!!!!!
> 
> LXT....................




We dont see too many NON climbing Arborists in the industry around here, and if they are they are paid as such.

The MCA designation carries a TON of respect around here. That is because it is THE hardest CA test in the country. The ISA test is nothing in MA. and many MCA members would concur with the $$$$ statement above.


----------



## RedlineIt

> mattfr12 i climb trees 6 days a week year round mon-sat. only reason i want the cert is a raise at work. its like 2-3$ an hour.



Hey folks, the Original Poster is back! None too soon.

Matt, if you're literate at a ninth-grade level, have short-term memory skills and have a couple hundred bucks saved up you don't mind giving to the ISA, you're a dead-on lock for certification. Easiest raise you'll ever earn. 

-------------

Back to our originally scheduled program:

BC WetCoast:


> The ISA has done a very good marketing job, by getting the public to believe that only a CA has the qualifications



All due respect BC WetCoast, but in which media has this marketing job been advanced, developed or implemented? TV, Radio, Newspapers? The ISA has it's own website, but so does Exploding Dog. Google on which has more hits.

Municipalities know the ISA and how to be sure an ISA cert does the work, but the public? They wouldn't know the ISA from the Ice Skating Association.

------------

clearance, 

Just for laffs, why not become ISA certified yourself? I totally respect the work the CUA's do.

You seem determined to bring the ivory tower down, I think it would be cool if the next time someone said "you're not certified", you could have a platform from which you could tell them to jump.

------------------




> Not to bust your chops but that means your QUALIFIED......NOT Certified. Certified implicates you have received a CERTIFICATE, CERTIFYING you in a certain field. You have none so your not certified.



BostonBull, 

This is the worst example of reaching for semantics I'm likely to see. The "C" in CUA means what in your world, Boston? Cualifed?


Also look up implies vs implicates, Boston. I've been saying that certain certifications require a ninth-grade level of comprehension. It's possible I shot a wee bit high.

------------


Maybe it's just me matt, get your cetification, enjoy your raise in pay, but expect nothing else.


RedlineIt

------------------


----------



## lxt

Sprig said:


> If you don't mean a ha-ha joke that is sad for people like me who'd one day like to have some sort of certification (even if for consulting purposes), since climbing stairs fer me can be a chore let alone a tree. Do love trees though...............hmmmmmmmm.
> 
> 
> 
> Serge



I understand your position sprig & I feel for people in a situation such as yours, However some things arent meant to be, imagine a surgeon with very bad eyesight, a mechanic with arthritis(severe). Im not against a consulting certification but designate it as such!!!

Brcc, I do agree with some of what you say, however the jobs/careers you use as an example range from construction site to office work.

using your example an auto mechanic could choose not to do brakes, that may be.....but I bet he had to at one point! the gunsmith might not hunt but I bet he still shoots the gun!! the lawyer...well thats a whole nother story LOL.

the point Im trying to make is most start out at the bottom & work their way up!! If you are unable to then I beleive there outta be a course for what you intend on doing....such as consulting but dont put it in the same realm as CA, 

Ill ask this again;*doesnt it embarass you to know that the Arborist Cert. you hold has been diluted & cheapened so as to obtain a larger membership thus increasing profit by way of dues ?*

*do you CA`s really think your cert. is valuable when you dont provide any above ground service that the public has hired you for? How long do you think the public will want to pay you for a service that you must have someone else do because some of you cant ?*

those CA`s that climb & engage in tree care operations, God Bless you, cuz your doing what your suppose to in regards to the title that you hold.

LXT................


----------



## BostonBull

The *C* in my Certification (MCA) stands for certified. The original poster was not a CERTIFIED arborist. Only a Qualified one thats all. I was getting ruffled listening to guys bash CA. The MCA is what ALL other tests in the country are based on, like it or not! And I am quite proud of my designation.

Thanks for the input............:spam:

And yes you are 100% correct I meant implies. I was watching Fox News and they were talking about some court case at the time and use the term implicates........


----------



## lxt

BostonBull said:


> We dont see too many NON climbing Arborists in the industry around here, and if they are they are paid as such.
> 
> The MCA designation carries a TON of respect around here. That is because it is THE hardest CA test in the country. The ISA test is nothing in MA. and many MCA members would concur with the $$$$ statement above.



I can beleive this!! that is why I said I would come to MA to take the test rather than go through the ISA. I just recently joined the Tree wardens & foresters assoc. of MA, PA has nothing like this & I consider your neck of the woods in regards to Cert`s & knowledge to be top tier!!

Id move east if I could, my area has many CA`s charging fee`s for looking at stuff & then telling the Home owner they dont do this or that & they should hire someone to remedy the problem, only good thing about that is I usually get the job, only to hear "i just paid x number of dollars to be told to hire someone" makes mr. & mrs home owner wander what kinda biz were in!!

LXT................


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> I can beleive this!! that is why I said I would come to MA to take the test rather than go through the ISA. I just recently joined the Tree wardens & foresters assoc. of MA, PA has nothing like this & I consider your neck of the woods in regards to Cert`s & knowledge to be top tier!!
> 
> Id move east if I could, my area has many CA`s charging fee`s for looking at stuff & then telling the Home owner they dont do this or that & they should hire someone to remedy the problem, only good thing about that is I usually get the job, only to hear "i just paid x number of dollars to be told to hire someone" makes mr. & mrs home owner wander what kinda biz were in!!
> 
> LXT................



That wouldn't fly around here. We are in the top region of MA for Arboriculture, business is very competitive with mostly good reputable Co's, with some hacks in there too. No matter what though, EVERYONE gives free quotes. I couldn't imagine the look on peoples faces if I told them there was a fee for looking at work................


----------



## DonnyO

lxt said:


> I can beleive this!! that is why I said I would come to MA to take the test rather than go through the ISA. I just recently joined the Tree wardens & foresters assoc. of MA, PA has nothing like this & I consider your neck of the woods in regards to Cert`s & knowledge to be top tier!!
> LXT................




amen brother!


----------



## clearance

BC WetCoast said:


> I totally disagree with you clearance and lxt on the need for CA to be able to climb. I come from an industrial forestry background (a Registered Professional Forester). When I designed logging road and cutblocks, I didn't need to know all the intricacies of falling or running an excavator. All I said was this is where the road goes and those are the trees that will be cut, make it so.
> 
> Same for a CA.



I'll bet all the fallers and roadbuilders loved you, not. I have worked in the bush, and the cutblocks look smaller, stupider and crazier every year. To the point where, when you see them and the predominant lean of the trees, you wonder "who was the genuis who layed this out". I mean such things as triangles at the bottom of the block, so the timber has to be crossed, felled against the lean, and other inanities. Things which make an already dangerous and tough job even harder. Cutblocks angled in such a way to the road that it is hard to get a straight line to the yarder, meaning blocks have to be changed more and siwashes happen. 

"Here is where the road goes 'cause I said", awesome, you ever ask the men who build roads for thier opinion? So it matters not to you that guys are running hoes on really steep slopes where, with a small slide, they will go a few hundred feet down the hill? As has happened when roads have to be pushed into steep ground on the coast.

Make it so huh?, you are one arrogant man,


----------



## treeseer

lxt, if I go lame tomorrow and have to stop climbing after 43 years, does that mean my job description will change? I hope not. Please consider widening your definition of "ARBORIST". :bang:

BBull, consultations are paid opinions on how to manage trees. Clients pay for them because any tree service owner who gives opinions is de facto biased toward the services they profit on, so their opinion is not objective or independent. It may be accurate and helpful, or it may be worse then useless useless.

I have heard of research implicating that listening to Fox News will lower your IQ, but I cannot orientate you to the journal it was published in. :jester: 

I agree that ISA cert SEEMS to have gotten a lot easier, but consider that it may look that way to us because we know more now. I got my CA 15 years ago and my BCMA 3 years ago, and they have been excellent investments. If nothing else they force me to get out of my own head once in a while so I get enough CEU's.


----------



## clearance

treeseer said:


> lxt, if I go lame tomorrow and have to stop climbing after 43 years, does that mean my job description will change? I hope not. Please consider widening your definition of "ARBORIST". :bang:



You are a climber, if you stop climbing you were a climber, and as such have every right to make suggestions to people about climbing. People who direct me who have climbed get some respect, right off the bat, because they have Actually Done the Work and know what they are talking about. That ain't my beef, never was, if you have done it you are in the pack.


----------



## BostonBull

treeseer said:


> I have heard of research implicating that listening to Fox News will lower your IQ, but I cannot orientate you to the journal it was published in. :jester:



Well that explains it!


----------



## clearance

*BC Wetcoast*

I am going to add something, my observations as a man who has worked in the bush and has a bit of common sense mean little to you, so check this out. The thread is the one about rope pulling, and the post you made is #88, on page 6. Your own words, couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> You are a climber, if you stop climbing you were a climber, and as such have every right to make suggestions to people about climbing. People who direct me who have climbed get some respect, right off the bat, because they have Actually Done the Work and know what they are talking about. That ain't my beef, never was, if you have done it you are in the pack.



Yeah I agree with that,I have problems with that at times myself.
The wife has learned a lot by watching me and lowering limbs,
sometimes she say's why did you not do it like? It pisses me off
and then she asks whats wrong,I am nice and say it was a bad
tree! Everyone thinks they know what to do but they have not
been there. I have a friend very good climber, I usually don't
raise my hair if he says something as we have both helped by
seeing something the climber did not. I used to be his forman
on a climb crew for powerlines and we were asked by our manager
if we could get down a tree that our competition refused.
I talked it over with mike and the rest of the crew, told
the manager we could do it if time was no object!
This tree I would refuse now,it was a huge sweetgum that
was in intersecting three phase and busy intersection!
The gum was rotten at the base but green in canopy
and there was a strap 10 inch tension wood left of a 45
inch stump. The giraffe got all he could and at 90 feet
overhanging limbs were still 12 diameter.
We started setting ropes and tied them tight to trees
in a spiral fashon,This bucket operator no one on my crew 
liked, comes up and starts running his mouth about he would
do it this way! My friend said my head turned beet red and I
started poking my finger in this fellers chest, telling him the
manager asked us to do this tree and we don't need some
pus??y half azzed bucket operator that never put spurs on
telling us nothing. Things got pretty intense, for a few minutes
he never said a word,then he said the manager made me come 
over so you would have a bucket and he would rather be on
his line. I said fine go but leave the bucket, he starts saying
I will shut up just let me stay! So I said ok but one more wrong 
word and you will wear these spurs and climb this tree.
We get this tree down with out one problem except fear and
this yahoo was down the line pushing saplings and cutting and 
was hollering help,help,he got it into the three phaze and was trying
to push it out! We went up there he is still hollering help,help, I
tell him to forget it the line just blowed!!!!!!!!!shesh he was a winner.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

BostonBull said:


> The *C* in my Certification (MCA) stands for certified. The original poster was not a CERTIFIED arborist. Only a Qualified one thats all. I was getting ruffled listening to guys bash CA. The MCA is what ALL other tests in the country are based on, like it or not! And I am quite proud of my designation.
> 
> Thanks for the input............:spam:
> 
> And yes you are 100% correct I meant implies. I was watching Fox News and they were talking about some court case at the time and use the term implicates........




Ahh.. hah... Now you are ready to come out to Oregon and take the landscape board exams  

1 in 10 pass the entire exam first time through.

Not a big part on trees - mostly all aspects of planting and landscaping - but a fine challenge for the heavyweights.

T. Collier of Collier Arborcare was the last arborist I heard of to pass that Oregon exam, although there may be a few I didn't hear of.

In Oregon, you cannot advertise the planting or transplanting aspect of trees without the landscape license.

(Sort of odd in one way - not in another way. An inconvenience to many).

I took both exams not too far into the past. The landscape exam has toughened a lot since I took it, but it was still mildly brutal even with all my college and years of experience. The arborist CA exam has barely changed since I took that one 4 years ago.

For toughness, I'd say that on a scale of 1 to 10, that:

ISA's CA exam is a #4 to #5

Oregon landscape exams are a #9 to #10

So if someone wants to be certified in Oregon and legally advertise all aspects of arboriculture including the planting, they have a very high bar to clear.

The way the licensing in Oregon is structured, it causes debate. When I was on the license board, I was all for more license categories so that an arborist could be licensed under the landscape board for say pruning and just planting trees, but not for other landscaping that they were not tested for.

Other board members seemed to complain that more license categories would make enforcement too hard. My belief is that enforcement's challenge is not based on numbers of categories in a license, because people can cheat no matter how many categories they have.

As our industry becomes more specialized, its only logical to have more categories. Otherwise, to test everybody for everything, becomes like expecting physicians to be tested for every single facet of "medicine" all at once. Can you imagine making a doctor pass extensive tests for dentistry, optometry, gynicology, obstetrics, etc., all at once? No way.


----------



## treeseer

M.D. Vaden said:


> As our industry becomes more specialized, its only logical to have more categories. .


Agreed; like Muni, Util, CTW, BCMA, Aerial Lift...maybe Risk in the future...

I've had a lot of hort, so I'd like to take that OR test. Heck, if Collier could pass it,...


----------



## BostonBull

MD

That test sounds extreme! In a good way. I would need a LOT of studying, but I think it would be quit the feather in my hat.......


----------



## M.D. Vaden

treeseer said:


> Agreed; like Muni, Util, CTW, BCMA, Aerial Lift...maybe Risk in the future...
> 
> I've had a lot of hort, so I'd like to take that OR test. Heck, if Collier could pass it,...



In one way, I hate licensing for myself, but the current state of affairs seems to justify the need due to the number of people who cause problems by offering their services when they don't have the ability needed to be relied upon.

Odds are, you would do well on that landscape exam.

I think that California has a very similar arrangement, but licenses are not reciprocal. Now that, I'd like to see.

It seems like a pain, that one state's city near a border, can't supply a landscaper - easily - for the other state's city over the border.

I mean, it can happen, but not in a practical sense for temporary things. For example, there is a huge company in California that specializes in moving massive trees. Similar to Davey, or whoever that other big outfit is.

Anyway, those companies probably out-qualify 99.9% of anybody in Oregon, to contract huge tree removal. Yet, they can't take a temporary contract in Oregon unless the owner passes the Oregon landscape exams, or, hires an Oregon INDIVIDUAL who has passed the exams, as an employee.

Last summer, I called the administrator of the landscape board to talk about this. He had a point that it could be a bit of a pain to offer temporary permits to bypass the test, because some companies would abuse the system to "buy" licenses. And, it would be inconvenient.

The decisions on this are complicated by a majority vote from 7 board members, and the administrator who is part advisor. Our administrator did have a lot of experience, so he is worth listening to.

Anyway, some decisions go back and forth as members come and members go.

Personally, I'd prefer to take a bit more complicated approach to licensing, and see if the extra load on the board's backs could take a bit of load off the contractor's backs. With maybe just $10 extra per year from each licensee, it could be done with an extra person on staff.

Right now in Oregon, the only 2 tests that offer a first line of defence are:

ISA's arborist tests
Oregon Landscape Board exams

Reason being....

The Landscape Architect Board exam occurs over 2 to 3 days from what I understand (understand from other L. architects). And I was told that the PLANT KNOWLEDGE aspects of that exam are being stripped-bare, to where very little emphasis is being placed on horticulture and plant science.

It may occur in landscape architecture degree programs, but you don't need a degree or experience with an LA to qualify for the exam. It can be substitute experience that is related.

The LA exam given in Oregon, appears to deal heavily with procedure, safety, codes, engineering, etc.. Basically health, safety and other issues. Which are great in themselves. But to diminish the horticulture aspect ???


----------



## lxt

clearance said:


> You are a climber, if you stop climbing you were a climber, and as such have every right to make suggestions to people about climbing. People who direct me who have climbed get some respect, right off the bat, because they have Actually Done the Work and know what they are talking about. That ain't my beef, never was, if you have done it you are in the pack.



Exactly!! atleast you were a climber, what arborist definition are you talking about? ISA has many as far as arborist goes, why is that?

LXT............


----------



## treeseer

lxt said:


> Exactly!! atleast you were a climber, what arborist definition are you talking about? ISA has many as far as arborist goes, why is that?


Because an arborist is anyone who can manage urban trees, with or without ropes and saws.

I may run with the dogs, and climb and cut and all, but I am not sure I am 'in the pack", whatever that is.


----------



## clearance

treeseer said:


> Because an arborist is anyone who can manage urban trees, with or without ropes and saws.
> 
> I may run with the dogs, and climb and cut and all, but I am not sure I am 'in the pack", whatever that is.



Come on buddy, I have shown you respect. Do you really think that someone who is ISA certified, maybe a professor, an engineer at the same time, but who has never climbed, knows more about climbing than you? Should they be telling people how to climb, what to do, telling them to climb stone cold dead trees? Mangage urban trees, uhh, whatever. 
I like the idea I had some time back, I think arborists that work for a city or municipalty, but who do not run a saw or climb, should really do something every day. And that would be to plant decent trees (conifers, in B.C.) on city property and private property (with permission). That way we would have more trees, better trees and they would have made valuable use of thier time. What do you think of that? Beats having them driving around aimlessly, going to meetings, annoying the real tree men, does it not?


----------



## underwor

I have known many people in the past 40 years who may or may not have ever climbed a tree, but they possessed a great knowledge about how trees work, both biologically and mechanically. As a climber early in my career and as an educator now, I was able to use the knowledge these arborists (those who care for trees, shrubs and woody vines) shared to make my work in the tree more efficient, safer and more beneficial to the organism and its environment. The big change since 1967 was that we used to do a lot *to* trees where now we are learning that if you do things *for* trees, the trees can do most of the rest for themselves. 

The doing *for* includes placing the right tree in the right place, providing a good growing media, protect them from well intentioned but misinformed owners, mediating possible conflicts with modern society and trees, and not messing with mother nature too much. 

The doing *to* part which is still important is stepping in after events that are often caused by things beyond our control (wind, fire, genetic defects, odd growth forms, etc.), when conflicts arise between society and trees (line clearance, poor decisions in tree (or house) selection and placement), and when trees are asked to perform a function outside their normal realm of shade, CO2 sequestration and providing natural beauty (framing a vista, as an accent in a manmade work of art, etc). 

The complete arborist knows a little about all the domains of tree care. Not everything there is to know, but enough to have an idea of what right looks like in the system. From this they should be able to recognize when something is wrong or when a tree *disorder* exists. They then can use their knowledge or that of a pathologist, tree worker, hazard specialist, soil scientist, botanist or other tree care specialist (arborist) to correct the disorder and get the tree back on track or remove it if that is the proper action. 

The only way that an arborist continues to improve is to regularly visit with others in all aspects of the field who possess more knowledge than he does. If I do not listen to others, and sort out what I can use and what is (in my opinion) questionable, I will be recycling the same stuff forever,while the trees and pressures of society pass me by. 

I hope my lectures don't ramble this much!!!


----------



## ropensaddle

underwor said:


> I have known many people in the past 40 years who may or may not have ever climbed a tree, but they possessed a great knowledge about how trees work, both biologically and mechanically. As a climber early in my career and as an educator now, I was able to use the knowledge these arborists (those who care for trees, shrubs and woody vines) shared to make my work in the tree more efficient, safer and more beneficial to the organism and its environment. The big change since 1967 was that we used to do a lot *to* trees where now we are learning that if you do things *for* trees, the trees can do most of the rest for themselves.
> 
> The doing *for* includes placing the right tree in the right place, providing a good growing media, protect them from well intentioned but misinformed owners, mediating possible conflicts with modern society and trees, and not messing with mother nature too much.
> 
> The doing *to* part which is still important is stepping in after events that are often caused by things beyond our control (wind, fire, genetic defects, odd growth forms, etc.), when conflicts arise between society and trees (line clearance, poor decisions in tree (or house) selection and placement), and when trees are asked to perform a function outside their normal realm of shade, CO2 sequestration and providing natural beauty (framing a vista, as an accent in a manmade work of art, etc).
> 
> The complete arborist knows a little about all the domains of tree care. Not everything there is to know, but enough to have an idea of what right looks like in the system. From this they should be able to recognize when something is wrong or when a tree *disorder* exists. They then can use their knowledge or that of a pathologist, tree worker, hazard specialist, soil scientist, botanist or other tree care specialist (arborist) to correct the disorder and get the tree back on track or remove it if that is the proper action.
> 
> The only way that an arborist continues to improve is to regularly visit with others in all aspects of the field who possess more knowledge than he does. If I do not listen to others, and sort out what I can use and what is (in my opinion) questionable, I will be recycling the same stuff forever,while the trees and pressures of society pass me by.
> 
> I hope my lectures don't ramble this much!!!


Yeah and arborist should deal with minimizing stress factors
as they relate to trees,as unless they planted them or know the history
a lot of detective work will be necessary most times to locate cause
of a symptom. I would think a good arborist would know treating just
the symptom,will not ensure good health. The problems I think being
referred to here, ether real or imagined fall into personality issues and
even self esteem issues. I have experienced many of these at the hands
of my superiors,no one wants to have someone govern them from office
chair or the ground. I complained about it for years and am now studying
to prepare for when my climbing skill lessens. I feel education needs to
be combined with experience,many college boys don't have a clue as
to courage and skill level required to climb hard core trees. The idea
of some college boy leading field work is a safety hazard as respect
has never been earned.


----------



## treeseer

clearance, I like your idea that every desk jockey administrative arborist should regularly get their hands on the trees and in the earth. I also think it reasonable that every field arborist regularly get their hands on information that is new to them, and outside their present realm.

That way, in time, all our expertise will be wider, so we will go outside of it less. No good for a nonclimbing arborist to tell a climber how to climb, or a bush arborist telling urban arborists to cut down trees:greenchainsaw: instead of managing them.

underwor said it best.


----------



## bigshea13

ropensaddle said:


> Becoming an arborist is a milestone from reaching a level
> of personal achievement! I would say knowledge obtained
> in study would give you a clearer view of what an arborist
> truly is. I used to think similar to clearance until preparing
> for the test, as a very well seasoned climber I understand
> the fear of someone knowing a little more than you.
> When that finally becomes a driving force to learn new
> ways and practice you have caught on and learning
> becomes a desire.



holy ####! thats exactly where it begins! how true that statement is. the fear of someone being more useful than you


----------



## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> Come on buddy, I have shown you respect. Do you really think that someone who is ISA certified, maybe a professor, an engineer at the same time, but who has never climbed, knows more about climbing than you? Should they be telling people how to climb, what to do, telling them to climb stone cold dead trees? Mangage urban trees, uhh, whatever.
> I like the idea I had some time back, I think arborists that work for a city or municipalty, but who do not run a saw or climb, should really do something every day. And that would be to plant decent trees (conifers, in B.C.) on city property and private property (with permission). That way we would have more trees, better trees and they would have made valuable use of thier time. What do you think of that? Beats having them driving around aimlessly, going to meetings, annoying the real tree men, does it not?




I think that approach is a bit narrow in scope. It eliminates many aspects of "management".

An arborist's ONLY responsibility is to understand tree care. But a managing arborist either needs to understand climbing (if needed), or manage someone who is able to handle that aspect.

Being a "climber" is an optional skill. Operating a chainsaw offers ZERO qualification toward being an arborist. That's because chainsaws are used in other trades like construction to cut beams, etc., and the use of the saws must be done for that likewise, as a skill. Likewise, climbing is a "skill".

In a municipal system, the best supervisor for the urban forest or arboretum will be a Certified Arborist or the equivilent for management. As far as the trees and climbing go, they can delegate that job to someone who is equally qualified as an arborist, or more skilled at climbing and rigging.

Tree care programs should never be managed by placing climbing and chainsaws as the top priority, but by having arboriculture as the top priority.

Should the managing arborist also be good at climbing, that would be handy. But then that would only last so long anyway.

It's a bit unwise in a big urban area, to keep the top level arborist up in the trees, otherwise they cannot properly coordinate all the programs that must be managed.

Even a Certified Arborist need not always be able to climb within their own company. Anything can be managed.


----------



## lxt

treeseer said:


> Because an arborist is anyone who can manage urban trees, with or without ropes and saws.
> 
> I may run with the dogs, and climb and cut and all, but I am not sure I am 'in the pack", whatever that is.



I thought part of the ISA definition for an arborist was; A professional involved in the practice of arborculture dealing with the management & maintenance of trees. 

ISA has broke this definition in to sections to promote Certification(s) within a Certification, Nice for them!! means more money!! contradictory to the Title though. This is my problem with them.

Part of an Arborists function & a main function at that is the maint. aspect of trees!!! which would mean having the ability to.......CLIMB!!

Matt, If it will get you a couple dollar an hour raise do it!! but understand it will cost you & to keep up the Cert. will cost you, unless Bartlett is footing the bill, Good Luck in whatever you choose!!

LXT.............


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> I thought part of the ISA definition for an arborist was; A professional involved in the practice of arborculture dealing with the management & maintenance of trees.
> 
> ISA has broke this definition in to sections to promote Certification(s) within a Certification, Nice for them!! means more money!! contradictory to the Title though. This is my problem with them.
> 
> Part of an Arborists function & a main function at that is the maint. aspect of trees!!! which would mean having the ability to.......CLIMB!!
> 
> Matt, If it will get you a couple dollar an hour raise do it!! but understand it will cost you & to keep up the Cert. will cost you, unless Bartlett is footing the bill, Good Luck in whatever you choose!!
> 
> LXT.............



There it is again.

Trying to make managing trees identical with managing people & skills.

A bit of overlap, but miles apart.


----------



## clearance

bigshea13 said:


> holy ####! thats exactly where it begins! how true that statement is. the fear of someone being more useful than you



Welcome to the site. I got no fear, if someone can help with my knowledge, I'm all ears. Now, as far as being usefull, who is more usefull at treework, that is the actual work, me, or some textbook hero who can't even start a saw? 

Now M.D. Vaden, and others, my point is, and has always been, those who have never done the work, only read and talked about it, should never be telling tree guys how to do thier job. They can say what they want cut down, what is to be saved, etc, but they should leave how its done the experts. Do you not agree? 

And another thing, there is absolutely no requirement for even the littlest amount of common sense in an ISA arborist, none. If they have it beforehand, thats great, otherwise, watchout!! Thats why they often make poor decisions, poor decisions that risk lives and cause property damage.


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> I think that approach is a bit narrow in scope. It eliminates many aspects of "management".
> 
> An arborist's ONLY responsibility is to understand tree care. But a managing arborist either needs to understand climbing (if needed), or manage someone who is able to handle that aspect.
> 
> Being a "climber" is an optional skill. Operating a chainsaw offers ZERO qualification toward being an arborist. That's because chainsaws are used in other trades like construction to cut beams, etc., and the use of the saws must be done for that likewise, as a skill. Likewise, climbing is a "skill".
> 
> In a municipal system, the best supervisor for the urban forest or arboretum will be a Certified Arborist or the equivilent for management. As far as the trees and climbing go, they can delegate that job to someone who is equally qualified as an arborist, or more skilled at climbing and rigging.
> 
> Tree care programs should never be managed by placing climbing and chainsaws as the top priority, but by having arboriculture as the top priority.
> 
> Should the managing arborist also be good at climbing, that would be handy. But then that would only last so long anyway.
> 
> It's a bit unwise in a big urban area, to keep the top level arborist up in the trees, otherwise they cannot properly coordinate all the programs that must be managed.
> 
> Even a Certified Arborist need not always be able to climb within their own company. Anything can be managed.



Pretty much goes against what I just posted, I couldnt disagree more with this post. Managing Arborist!! WTF Manage a Climber or someone able to handle that aspect?? If you dont climb then dont manage a climber thats ridiculous!! & will get you no Respect!

this is what I just went through, read my thread arguement with an arborist!! I will be [email protected]#med if that guy will mangage me! & honestly some posted stating how nice I should be, like I should kiss his rear!! I was nice, to the point & even tried engaging in conversation, do I respect him? I respect his knowledge, position & as a person, but as an Arborist....NO! 

your post goes against what the definition of an Arborist is by ISA standards, a certification within a certification, I think many like this!! simply because it gives them the ability to "manage" as you put it! & not do the dirty work so to speak!! 

Clearance...you can show them respect, its a two way street, I just did it!! & in the end they will give you none!! cuz their certified & in their mind think they are the saviour`s of the tree world, Shigo is god & their books cant be wrong( they`re written by million dollar a yr professors ya know!), That mind set from them sickens me!! these book writters have very little real world exp. if any!! 

They take what once was a Reputable, Earned, Proud Designation & bastardize it for monetary gain, cheapening the requirements & making those who have obtained it feel like they have accomplished something that former requirements would have left them out in the cold & they did it for the money!! Hows that make you feel? 

LXT................


----------



## bigshea13

treeseer said:


> Sherlock Holmes: "Don't theorize without the facts."
> 
> Clients enjoy being in on the mystery, seeing me paging through the references and pointing to the plant or pest they are wondering about.
> 
> Doctors who theorize first can be dangerous. If they guess "lymphoma" before looking at the evidence closely, they can miss leukemia, and the untreated or mistreated patient gets closer to death.
> 
> This is no good, believe me.
> 
> :censored:



well put


----------



## clearance

lxt said:


> Clearance...you can show them respect, its a two way street, I just did it!! & in the end they will give you none!! cuz their certified & in their mind think they are the saviour`s of the tree world, Shigo is god & their books cant be wrong( they`re written by million dollar a yr professors ya know!), That mind set from them sickens me!! these book writters have very little real world exp. if any!!
> 
> They take what once was a Reputable, Earned, Proud Designation & bastardize it for monetary gain, cheapening the requirements & making those who have obtained it feel like they have accomplished something that former requirements would have left them out in the cold & they did it for the money!! Hows that make you feel?
> 
> LXT................



I agree with you, except for the little I do know about the late Dr. Shigo, who wrote a pretty cool book about utility work a while back. He said that if you are not trained and experienced, do not work around powerlines, he wouldn't have some cull telling a good treeman how to do that job.

I have met many ISA types, I have been directed by them, have done what was was on the list of work they gave us, shaken my head more times than I can remember. I think one of the reasons that non working arborists often show little respect for the men is that they are intimidated. Not so much by the hostile stares, but because they are unworthy and know it. I mean, what if you were the captain in some WW2 battle and you said "Men, I know we are out numbered, but go and take that hill from the Japanese, I have some important paperwork to do in my tent" 

That kind of stuff doesn't fly, out there in the real world. I could go on and on with examples of outright incompetence by ISA arborists but why, you are right LXT, many of them figure the sun shines out of thier azz.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> Pretty much goes against what I just posted, I couldnt disagree more with this post. Managing Arborist!! WTF Manage a Climber or someone able to handle that aspect?? If you dont climb then dont manage a climber thats ridiculous!! & will get you no Respect!



The major obstacle to that approach, really shows its face when you take your model of an ideal arborist, and remove them from their "safety net" for their philosophy - an environment to climb. An equally big obstacle is below in bold print at the end.

Take your model arborists, and drop them into an environment where there are no trees to climb, but of great enough value to need arboriculture. If therefore their climbing skills are irrelevant and cannot be used, your logic dictates that they are no longer arborists.

The important part about arboriculture, is that arboriculture exists even if climbing gear was not existent. Arboriculture exists even if someone does not have a hand pruning saw.

So the "arena" among arborists is not climbing at all, but the "arena" is the presence of trees.

It would be equally foolish if I tried to claim that because some arborists spent 100% of their time in trees, and none planting, that they were not arborists.

The important part, is do they understand how to plant trees. Do they know their aboriculture or not? If they know how to plant, they still can prune and climb trees, but manage and oversee the planting.

*There may be an even greater obstacle to your presentation of opinion...

If you think that a Certified Arborist cannot manage from the ground, like for a city like Los Angeles or Boston, without him or her being a skilled climber, there is a logic dilemna.

So that CA can't manage other CAs, but the upper city management with no hort experience can hire and manage a climbing CA?

And in that, I disagree with you by giving more credit to a managing CA, than I would do a non-horticultural city management professional. The way I see it, is if another manager can supercede a climbing arborist and the work can be done right, then a managing CA with expert tree knowledge can even more effectively manage CAs and climbers.

To think otherwise, we cut off our leg of logic, by neccessitating that every level of city management above the urban forester, must be a climbing CA - all the way to the mayor.*


----------



## OLD CHIPMONK

recently contacted ISA about reupping my arborist certification. They have a drive going for new members, a real, inexpensive price. Then I beleive the yearly membership is based on a percentage of the company gross. Does anyone know the details? Not cheap anymore ?


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> The major obstacle to that approach, really shows its face when you take your model of an ideal arborist, and remove them from their "safety net" for their philosophy - an environment to climb. An equally big obstacle is below in bold print at the end.
> 
> Take your model arborists, and drop them into an environment where there are no trees to climb, but of great enough value to need arboriculture. If therefore their climbing skills are irrelevant and cannot be used, your logic dictates that they are no longer arborists.
> 
> The important part about arboriculture, is that arboriculture exists even if climbing gear was not existent. Arboriculture exists even if someone does not have a hand pruning saw.
> 
> So the "arena" among arborists is not climbing at all, but the "arena" is the presence of trees.
> 
> It would be equally foolish if I tried to claim that because some arborists spent 100% of their time in trees, and none planting, that they were not arborists.
> 
> The important part, is do they understand how to plant trees. Do they know their aboriculture or not? If they know how to plant, they still can prune and climb trees, but manage and oversee the planting.
> 
> *There may be an even greater obstacle to your presentation of opinion...
> 
> If you think that a Certified Arborist cannot manage from the ground, like for a city like Los Angeles or Boston, without him or her being a skilled climber, there is a logic dilemna.
> 
> So that CA can't manage other CAs, but the upper city management with no hort experience can hire and manage a climbing CA?
> 
> And in that, I disagree with you by giving more credit to a managing CA, than I would do a non-horticultural city management professional. The way I see it, is if another manager can supercede a climbing arborist and the work can be done right, then a managing CA with expert tree knowledge can even more effectively manage CAs and climbers.
> 
> To think otherwise, we cut off our leg of logic, by neccessitating that every level of city management above the urban forester, must be a climbing CA - all the way to the mayor.*







do you climb?


----------



## bigshea13

Being a "climber" is an optional skill. Operating a chainsaw offers ZERO qualification toward being an arborist. That's because chainsaws are used in other trades like construction to cut beams, etc., and the use of the saws must be done for that likewise, as a skill. Likewise, climbing is a "skill".


ive gotta disagree with ya.
thats like saying that being able to perform cpr is an optional skill for a doctor.
its one thing to know what needs to be done and its another to be able to do it; for most of the world , arborists are directly linked to the saw. most people think that arborists should be able t tackle most any tree care task, including the act of prunning or removing. 
most of my work has been in ny state so maybe im nieve to the other goings on round the world . ive been involved in multiple aspects of the tree industry. from maple syrup to danger tree removal aroound kv lines ive got a decent feel for things. from what i can see well over half of the industry requires the use of a saw. in the woods, in the mills,in back yards and in the air the saw has become an icon in every end of the industry. there really is no way around it.
as far as the climbing [email protected]#!$%$% do you mean to tell me that there are really "arborists" out there that dont climb..or dont have to where they are. if thats the case id like to know how they diagnose a problem at the top of a tree in the back yard 70 feet up. whats he do then?...wait till the problem makes its way farther down so he can see it better...sub it out? maybe a really good pair of binocs will do it? thats rediculous. 
people have false sense of security when it comes to stuff like this.someone comes to the door to work and they are "certified" but in actuality they just passed a written test. arborist that dont climb and cant use a saw effectively are no more than glorified gardeners. :


----------



## clearance

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> recently contacted ISA about reupping my arborist certification. They have a drive going for new members, a real, inexpensive price. Then I beleive the yearly membership is based on a percentage of the company gross. Does anyone know the details? Not cheap anymore ?



I don't think it costs that much, and not a percentage, it will be a flat fee. Quantity, not quality, thats the road they are on.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

bigshea13 said:


> Being a "climber" is an optional skill. Operating a chainsaw offers ZERO qualification toward being an arborist. That's because chainsaws are used in other trades like construction to cut beams, etc., and the use of the saws must be done for that likewise, as a skill. Likewise, climbing is a "skill".
> 
> 
> ive gotta disagree with ya.
> thats like saying that being able to perform cpr is an optional skill for a doctor.



Well, while you guys still have one leg to stand on, it may be time to take that leg away to before some new folks get confused. 

Doctors are not arborists and chainsaws are not CPR.

For those who want to really learn about how climbing and and being an arborist are two separate things, I'm going to use more of a management example.

In landscaping, some landscapers have equally confused the ability to install irrigation systems with being a qualified landscape contractor or horticulturist.

A horticulturist or landscape technician has no need to master installing irrigation controllers and systems, but needs to master the knowledge of watering and soils.

For example, if a landscaper does not want to install irrigation themselves, they can hire an irrigation specialist, and in our state anyhow, we have the testing and resources to pin-down exactly what that type of person is.

What all this shows, is that those who think an arborist must climb to be an arborist, or that a landscaper must install irrigation to be a landscaper, fail to understand management.

Greatly fail to understand management.

The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.

I've worked for companies, cities and universities that have overcome the failure of misunderstanding management, by managing effectively. I've seen a person with great knowledge of diseases, never spray but direct and schedule the skills of the licensed pesticide consultant on staff. I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).


----------



## oldirty

bigshea13 said:


> :arborist that dont climb and cant use a saw effectively are no more than glorified gardeners. :



and thats the truth right there. 

i dont get why you would want to be an arborist if you dont want to be in the tree.


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## OLD CHIPMONK

I just searched the ISA website for tree care companys throughout Ga. on their search button. Is Batlett Tree & some lanscaper the only ones they have listed. You had better check to see if your company is listed under, " search for local services ". Let me know what you find as listed services.


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## clearance

M.D. Vaden said:


> Well, while you guys still have one leg to stand on, it may be time to take that leg away to before some new folks get confused.
> 
> Doctors are not arborists and chainsaws are not CPR.
> 
> For those who want to really learn about how climbing and and being an arborist are two separate things, I'm going to use more of a management example.
> 
> In landscaping, some landscapers have equally confused the ability to install irrigation systems with being a qualified landscape contractor or horticulturist.
> 
> A horticulturist or landscape technician has no need to master installing irrigation controllers and systems, but needs to master the knowledge of watering and soils.
> 
> For example, if a landscaper does not want to install irrigation themselves, they can hire an irrigation specialist, and in our state anyhow, we have the testing and resources to pin-down exactly what that type of person is.
> 
> What all this shows, is that those who think an arborist must climb to be an arborist, or that a landscaper must install irrigation to be a landscaper, fail to understand management.
> 
> Greatly fail to understand management.
> 
> The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.



M.D., should arborsits who don't climb, that have gained thier knowledge from books, be telling tree guys how to climb and how to cut down trees, like around powerlines, for example? I have asked you this, can you please answer.


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> Well, while you guys still have one leg to stand on, it may be time to take that leg away to before some new folks get confused.
> 
> Doctors are not arborists and chainsaws are not CPR.
> 
> For those who want to really learn about how climbing and and being an arborist are two separate things, I'm going to use more of a management example.
> 
> In landscaping, some landscapers have equally confused the ability to install irrigation systems with being a qualified landscape contractor or horticulturist.
> 
> A horticulturist or landscape technician has no need to master installing irrigation controllers and systems, but needs to master the knowledge of watering and soils.
> 
> For example, if a landscaper does not want to install irrigation themselves, they can hire an irrigation specialist, and in our state anyhow, we have the testing and resources to pin-down exactly what that type of person is.
> 
> What all this shows, is that those who think an arborist must climb to be an arborist, or that a landscaper must install irrigation to be a landscaper, fail to understand management.
> 
> Greatly fail to understand management.
> 
> The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.
> 
> I've worked for companies, cities and universities that have overcome the failure of misunderstanding management, by managing effectively. I've seen a person with great knowledge of diseases, never spray but direct and schedule the skills of the licensed pesticide consultant on staff. I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).





maybe i am jaded mario but what this sounds like is the age old line "those who can, do . those who cant, teach" or end up managing.


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## OLD CHIPMONK

When I took the exam there was a Master Gardner lady present. She said she was taking the exam to learn more about trees. She had no intentions of working in this field. Might have been 70 yrs. old.


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## clearance

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> When I took the exam there was a Master Gardner lady present. She said she was taking the exam to learn more about trees. She had no intentions of working in this field. Might have been 70 yrs. old.



Thats cool, one is never to old to stop learning. Why is it that some who are ISA arborists in thier 20s figure they know it all? 

Old Chip, about your question for the listing of arborists in Ga, you probably have to pay for that advertising, its all about the money, as others have said.


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## OLD CHIPMONK

Clearance; your probably 100 percent with your observation.


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## ropensaddle

This is a subject that has bothered me for many years,
It should be a company wanting an arborist looks at their
senior climber and offers schooling to him. To manage tree
men should require a minimum of 20 years climbing to give
old timers something to look forward to. There are many
other areas managers can go to run things with respect,
climbing is not one of them. I have stated that I have
been studying to pass certification,I also plan to get
a bs in horticulture and have climbed well over twenty
years. This takeover by college boys started many years
before and I was ticked about it like some here. I finally
have channeled it to desire! I have to admit some of the 
book studies are difficult and time consuming,I was
not born with a silver spoon and have to pay for my
books and materials. I will get certification and I plan
to manage my or another business and promote men
already their and especially climbers if they will study
and pass tests!


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## OLD CHIPMONK

You can take CEU'S online in order to keep your arborist certification. Maybe not the actual test.


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## lxt

M.D., what you state is the problem with America, too many chiefs not enough Indians, I would think its hard to manage someone about something you know nothing about( regarding climbing). 

funny how on the employment section in this forum, I always see CLIMBERS needed & ISA cert. is mentioned in the requirements as helpful but not neccessary!!!!! MMMMmmmm how about a Surgeon that doesnt perform surgery & never did, by your statement all one has to do is just be part of the field (or arena) & they can hold the credential!!

BTW, I know a little bit about management, the analogies you use regarding landscapers & irrigation is an absurd twist as too what we are even talking about, I manage my biz every day, my men every day, etc..etc... & Im not a certified business agent!! but hey according to you...I manage therefore I must be!! (Im in the arena)

I have to agree with one of the previous posts about, if you dont climb,or use a chainsaw, heck even trim out of a bucket!! you are a gardener!!! LOL. I like that!.....non-climbing, no bucket trimming, cant use a saw GARDENER. If the general public new this they would laugh at you & consider that cert. a farse!!! 

LXT...............


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## underwor

> Greatly fail to understand management.
> 
> The important part about arboriculture and landscaping, is not that everybody know everything, but that every project is managed so that all the right people with all the needed skills are doing the work.
> 
> I've worked for companies, cities and universities that have overcome the failure of misunderstanding management, by managing effectively. I've seen a person with great knowledge of diseases, never spray but direct and schedule the skills of the licensed pesticide consultant on staff. I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).



I have worked for Davey (2 years), run a tree care company (12 years), worked as a arborist (climbing) for a university and managed regular and sports turf for the same university (8 years). I prefer to work for others now as I realize that although I have 40 years experience (climbing, etc.) and about 18 years formal education, plus countless seminars and trade shows, I am not a manager. I can explain most concepts fairly well, but I am not good at telling someone else to do it. In my business I tried to do too much of the work myself. I should have hired a salesman, an accountant, another good climber and stayed on the ground a little more to manage things. 

I have worked for excellent managers who knew nothing about arboriculture, but they knew who to go to to get the job done. The grounds superintendent that I worked for knew nothing about trees, but he knew enough to hire me!! It would have been better, when we argued a finer point of equipment procurement, pruning or planting, if he had had a general knowledge base, such as the ISA CA test provides, but it was not necessary for his position. 

At a meeting of educators at the Morton Arboretum a few years back, we heard presentations from people in utility, municipal and commercial arboriculture. Almost to a man they said they did not want us turning out people "proficient" in arboriculture, they wanted people with a "good basic knowledge". Each ran his business a little different and wanted to fine tune the new arborist to fit his business plan and crew structure. While everyone of these people had worked in the field, it had been many years before. They recognized that things changed and that the new workers would bring in new ideas to be tried and evaluated. The general managers had the job of sorting the grain from the chaff, based on the issues of safety, production and the bottom line, with input from others within the organization. Field management and crew management were at other levels in the business and each built upon the others. All were engaged in the field of arboriculture and equally dedicated to the care of trees.

The 80 year old who took classes with me was not a climbing arborist, but she cared for a collection of bonsai trees worth more than I have made in my lifetime climbing.


----------



## D Mc

I would like to back MD Vaden here on his definition of what an arborist is in today's world. When I first started tree work we called ourselves "arborists" to differentiate us from loggers. Because if you mentioned trees and chain saws, everyone automatically thought you were a logger. At that stage, tree science and its findings was still fairly new and unproven. That's not true any more. The wealth of information available for the eager to learn individual is endless. I'm probably one of the best climbers on the face of the earth (like all the rest of you climbers out there) but I don't call myself an arborist. I call myself a tree climber specialist. Because that is what I do. I tried running a company for awhile and found the problems associated with management were beyond my scope. I know lots of botanical names and basic tree biology and entomology but not at the depth that is currently required for a true understanding of the arboriculture field. 

My wife, who passed her certification test this last year, is very good at all the currently required aspects of arboriculture. Her base of knowledge far surpasses mine and she has only been doing this for 20 years! And whereas I have taught her to do rudimentary climbing she is not planning on butt-hitching a big pine down over someone's house. And she wouldn't think of telling me how to do it. But the fact is that she can answer any question the homeowner may have while I am up a tree, describing what is going to be done and how it is going to be done. This is a tremendous benefit to our company utilizing both our fields of expertise. This is how it should work in the real world. I know it doesn't. 

Some times people are just jerks. It isn't the certification, job description, uniform, chainsaw that made them that way. Try not to condemn a whole process because some practitioners don't live up to your expectations. 

D Mc


----------



## clearance

underwor, D Mc, treeseer, etc, you guys just don't get it, you guys are climbers, that is a big deal, you know of what you speak. One of you is worth a thousand mutts when it comes to telling people how to do treework. I will listen to your ideas on how to climb and cut down trees, because YOU GUYS HAVE DONE IT. Do I have to draw you a picture, what is it you don't get?

LXT, you are right about the too many chiefs, not only that, the wrong kinds of chiefs, question, how many chiefs got made chiefs that were not Indians to begin with?, and so it is, its like explaining something to a drunk.


----------



## underwor

Yes I have been a climber, but I would not begin to know how to take down a large western conifer in a confined space or do clearance pruning. In that field, I know next to nothing. In fact I may be more dangerous because I think I know a little about it. I, like a very knowledgeable non-climbing arborist, am going to consult with one of you experts in those fields. I know the tree needs worked on, I may know the reason it needs worked on, I may know what permits are needed, I may know how to explain it to the local professionals (lawyers, doctors, environmental reactionaries, but I do not begin to know how to get into that tree or do the work safely and efficiently. If I had quit climbing in 1970, I would be well qualified to discuss climbing on manila hemp rope, using a double bowline on a bight saddle, making flush cuts and spraying with DDT and Lead Arsenate while hanging suspended at 50', but that would not qualify me to direct you or your crews in this day and age. I would be qualified to hire you to do the work based on my recommendations for the outcome desired as regards the health of the tree. Hopefully I would still be smart enough to take your recommendations on my recommendations into account in making the final decisions. 

We all have special skills, none of us have all of them. The business world, like the natural world is an system in which every piece must work together for the end result to be a long and prosperous life. All of these systems evolve and mutate. Those who can change with them will do well.


----------



## clearance

C'mon Bob. You could do it, them conifers are straight up, straight down, probably a lot easier than some of those spreading monsters you guys have down there. I have never cut down something thats as wide as it is tall, but I would give it my best shot. And because you have climbed, and have a lot of experience, although I don't know you, I cannot see you asking people to climb stone cold dead trees. I just can't. Don't sell yourself short, you would get respect here.


----------



## lxt

Bob I agree with clearance, just by your post I respect you!! Its the one bad apple that rottens the bunch, In the CA field there are many, We need to change this. Guys like you at least tried it & interestingly enough claim to not be all that good? Im thinking you are just humble & better than you say!!

If more were like you then I wouldnt have a problem with em!! props to ya!! 


LXT..............


----------



## bigshea13

I've seen the person who is only an expert with irrigation, supervise two pruning crews at a campus by sending out pruning experts, and listing the areas that need pruning (based off input of course).



what does that story have to do with wether or not an arborist should be able to climb and use a saw. i know a guy whos was only a governor and now hes in charge of the country and every dept that goes with it. if you hire your work out your only as good as the men you have working for you. lucky for the guy you know those pruning experts did him well. if they would have done something wrong and the job went bad would you still have given credit of the job misfortune to the guy you know. I know alota educated idiots. 
no..arborist arent doctors but they sure as hell arent irrigators either.
seriously....how much weight would an arborists opinion carry with you if he was unable or unwilling to crawl up in your tree to get a better look.
I sicka arguing this one. its rediculous. your only 1/2 an arborist at best if you dont climb or unable to use a saw.


----------



## treeseer

bigshea you got a point about climbers being needed for aerial inspections.



clearance said:


> Old Chip, about your question for the listing of arborists in Ga, you probably have to pay for that advertising, its all about the money, as others have said.


We interrupt this group rant to debunk yet another delusion. Read my sig below. The listing is currently free, and may well stay that way if enough CA's speak up about it. If that fails and they do charge later, so be it. They cannot stay in existence if they lose money, and I want ISA to exist. 

Delusion #2 , the "million dollar professors who don't know what they are writing about." That's whack--no one would publish, never mind buy books with a lot of misinformation. And their salaries are not that high.

20 or 30 years ago I used to think climbing was way cool, and other climbers were special people. :welcome: Now climbing is just a means to the end of tree care, arboriculture. Trust me, you self-defined pack, the rush will fade after a while and your body will age you out of the saddle, and then where will you be? 

If climbing and cutting  is all that makes an arborist, then we are just loggers who get vertical. When I climb tomorrow I'll enjoy it, but it will not define me or my work. Way too narrow.

A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.

:rockn: 

Same with rock music--the lead guitarist might think he's king, but without bass and drums he would go nowhere. And without a songwriter, he'd have nothing to play.


----------



## clearance

treeseer said:


> We interrupt this group rant to debunk yet another delusion. Read my sig below. The listing is currently free So, I stand corrected, there at least.
> 
> A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.



Good God, what have we here? I have climbed lots of trees that have lived and are still living now. Didn't need no musicians to accompany me, didn't need no conductor who couldn't play an instrument either. I just got up there, did what I had to do and next tree, all the way down the line. All by my little self.

Treeseer is trying to intellectualize this talk, nice try, it ain't rocket science. And if it was, could a rocket scientist climb trees? Probably as much as the non working arborists out there. But then again, being a rocket scientist he probably wouldn't tell me how to climb, just like I wouldn't tell him how to build rockets. Why, cause I have never done it. 

A few points illustrate Treeseers mindset, "I used to think climbing was way cool" And "then we are just loggers who get vertical" Kind of shows his contempt for climbers, and loggers. Easy to see where young non working arborists get attitude. 
The ones that direct, after all, are the conductors-'scuse me while I go barf.


----------



## ropensaddle

treeseer said:


> bigshea you got a point about climbers being needed for aerial inspections.
> 
> We interrupt this group rant to debunk yet another delusion. Read my sig below. The listing is currently free, and may well stay that way if enough CA's speak up about it. If that fails and they do charge later, so be it. They cannot stay in existence if they lose money, and I want ISA to exist.
> 
> Delusion #2 , the "million dollar professors who don't know what they are writing about." That's whack--no one would publish, never mind buy books with a lot of misinformation. And their salaries are not that high.
> 
> 20 or 30 years ago I used to think climbing was way cool, and other climbers were special people. :welcome: Now climbing is just a means to the end of tree care, arboriculture. Trust me, you self-defined pack, the rush will fade after a while and your body will age you out of the saddle, and then where will you be?
> 
> If climbing and cutting  is all that makes an arborist, then we are just loggers who get vertical. When I climb tomorrow I'll enjoy it, but it will not define me or my work. Way too narrow.
> 
> A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.
> 
> :rockn:
> 
> Same with rock music--the lead guitarist might think he's king, but without bass and drums he would go nowhere. And without a songwriter, he'd have nothing to play.



Ahhhhhh but then steps in the critic, Have you not listed to beck,
or some of the other soloists? Anyway comparing tree work to 
symphony or music is lame. I understand some of your points 
arborists,must rely on lab work,and climbers a good groundman!
I feel if you have not climbed pick a different path. Lot to learn
in the saddle that is not in them books. You will have a better
understanding of what you are asking others to perform! I do
understand that many scientists in arboculture have never 
climbed and contributed great things by not doing so! I am with
clearance on twenty year old school boys got no business supervising
men. I applied for a position over line clearance in a coop I worked many
years for, lost out to a grass mower with two year degree and
cert! I have now quit,I ask is a employee of many years service
trumped by a youngster with these credentials? He has been there
for two years now and most of the good help quit. This is why I
have a bad taste toward corporations, nepotism, poor management
practice and waste. I as a manager would have hired the long term
employee,schooled him and turned him into a moral booster. The 
truth is, on paper what may be today viewed as bad management
practice ie hiring someone for a position without college actually
is just the opposite! If the long term employee is willing to school
to learn the things necessary to manage the opportunity should
go to him, he deserved that chance. The money and men I would 
have saved in turnover the first year, would have been cost effective
to this company. Veterans of lengthy employment know the men
better than any school boy out there,they know their needs desires
and defects. Who better to manage them than someone that knows.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> Treeseer is trying to intellectualize this talk, nice try, it ain't rocket science. And if it was, could a rocket scientist climb trees? Probably as much as the non working arborists out there. But then again, being a rocket scientist he probably wouldn't tell me how to climb, just like I wouldn't tell him how to build rockets. Why, cause I have never done it.



I don't know about you, but it's like rocket science to me.

After reading your posts today, I could picture you trying to convince a bunch of US Marines, that when someone like a past General Lewis B. Puller shifted roles to being driven in a Jeep accompanied by a body gaurd, that he became less competent to command and manage troops and combat operations of his division.

For some reason, the principles of how veterens in any trade can advance into management with success, seems to work across-the-board, except in the minds of a handful of climbing arborists.

Of course I could be misreading your posts, that's the impression I'm getting as pertains to management in general. Because I don't think what we do for a living excludes us very much.

ropeandsaddle...

I'm not sure how you, I or Treeseer view trees compared to music, but I can explain my view of it.

About 10 years ago, I wrote an article called the "fine art of pruning" putting into perspective that when pruning is performed at the most intricate levels of skill and understanding, it can be as much a fine art as fine painting and music.

People have told me that I've removed "oppression" from their landscaping before. And one lady said her nurseryman friend visited her house and stood in awe at her Japanese black pine I pruned one day. And those are just a couple of many.

I mean, even in turf care, one other greenskeeper and I were able to control golfers without signs or being present, by detailing sand bunkers so intricately, as to be nicer than those of any other country club around Portland. And we ascertain that - golfing those clubs. At the city course, there were 2 to 3 trails of footprints left in EVERY sand trap, every weekday. After we dialed-in the bunkers, we could come back after a weekend leave, and find only 4 to 5 trails of footprints in all the sand traps combined. Something like a 2500% decrease. And that's just sand traps.

As far as trees, I think it can be comparable to a fine art, when an arborist understands how auxins are going to function in a tree, and utilizes the effects of it through careful selection and retention of leaders.

Leaders in trees can be selected and trained to lead and direct a tree, in fashion that can be likened to how the management leaders can lead a corporation in a specific direction with specific goals in mind.

There are some arborists that can visualize what's occuring in a tree, and how to manipulate it. And when they can manipulated trees so as to affect people's emotions, relaxation and pleasure, we're talking about a a fine art. That level of pruning does not occur by just routine dead-wood removal, crown raising and typical thinning.


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> I don't know about you, but it's like rocket science to me.
> 
> After reading your posts today, I could picture you trying to convince a bunch of US Marines, that when someone like a past General Lewis B. Puller shifted roles to being driven in a Jeep accompanied by a body gaurd, that he became less competent to command and manage troops and combat operations of his division.
> 
> For some reason, the principles of how veterens in any trade can advance into management with success, seems to work across-the-board, except in the minds of a handful of climbing arborists.
> 
> Of course I could be misreading your posts, that's the impression I'm getting as pertains to management in general. Because I don't think what we do for a living excludes us very much.



If we had three Pattons we would be done with this confounded war!


----------



## clearance

M.D. Vaden said:


> I don't know about you, but it's like rocket science to me.
> 
> After reading your posts today, I could picture you trying to convince a bunch of US Marines, that when someone like a past General Lewis B. Puller shifted roles to being driven in a Jeep accompanied by a body gaurd, that he became less competent to command and manage troops and combat operations of his division.
> 
> For some reason, the principles of how veterens in any trade can advance into management with success, seems to work across-the-board, except in the minds of a handful of climbing arborists.
> 
> Of course I could be misreading your posts, that's the impression I'm getting as pertains to management in general. Because I don't think what we do for a living excludes us very much.


M.D. I am going to ask you, yet again, should non climbing arborists, who have never climbed, tell experienced men how to climb?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> M.D. I am going to ask you, yet again, should non climbing arborists, who have never climbed, tell experienced men how to climb?



Not in general, unless they happen to be right about a bit of advice. And that's about how to "climb".

But they can supervise them for arboriculture. And as far as how the technique occurs with the gear and ropes and stuff, I figure that a good climber can be trusted to implement that aspect himself.

That's why I think a competent arborist with a lot of experience, who has never climbed, can hold a lead management position if he or she has the greatest reserve of knowledge pertaining to tree heath. There should be no problem with them having an assistant manager lead professional that can totally handle the facet of supervising the climbing and equipment operations.

Likewise, the same managing arborist can hire a competent arborist who has extensive experience with spraying and injection, to supervise and coordinate the pesticide operations and selection of application equipment, and safety gear.

Likewise, the same manageing arborist can hire a competent CA whose specialty is tree planting, tree spades and tree establishement, including structural soils, soil blending, root control, etc..

Likewise, the same managing arborist can hire a competent CA who is highly adept at tree and disease identification to identify, measure and record trees, including notation of pests and problems.

Likewise, the same managing arborist can hire another competent CA with exceptional skills at cabling and bracing.

It's assembling the Best of the Best. And it can be managed.


----------



## clearance

Thats a grudging admission, but not good enough. How can they be right about how to climb, never having done it? And if they are the supervisor, as you advocate, can they order a climber, are there penatlies for disobeying the arborist? What about the arborist telling the climber how to cut down trees around powerlines, can they "make" the climber do thier bidding?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> Thats a grudging admission, but not good enough. How can they be right about how to climb, never having done it? And if they are the supervisor, as you advocate, can they order a climber, are there penatlies for disobeying the arborist? What about the arborist telling the climber how to cut down trees around powerlines, can they "make" the climber do thier bidding?




Delegation.

I hire different CA climbing arborists myself. I don't tell them how to climb - they already take care of continued training themselves. All I have to do is coordinate what trees I need done, and when.

They know what to do when they get up there.

I don't work with any powerline stuff, but if I did, the simplicity of it is to hire the person who is qualified.


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> Delegation.
> 
> I hire different CA climbing arborists myself. I don't tell them how to climb - they already take care of continued training themselves. All I have to do is coordinate what trees I need done, and when.
> 
> They know what to do when they get up there.
> 
> I don't work with any powerline stuff, but if I did, the simplicity of it is to hire the person who is qualified.


Would you agree someone who has climbed many years that takes
steps to get certified would be a better asset, than one that has not
climbed and put in the time? Understanding the growth hormone auxin
as it relates to tree growth, apical dominance , phototrophism as they
relate to pruning, and especially training young trees is important I agree.
What of twenty years in canopy? Should it not pay more or carry
more clout?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> Would you agree someone who has climbed many years that takes
> steps to get certified would be a better asset, than one that has not
> climbed and put in the time? Understanding the growth hormone auxin
> as it relates to tree growth, apical dominance , phototrophism as they
> relate to pruning, and especially training young trees is important I agree.
> What of twenty years in canopy? Should it not pay more or carry
> more clout?




If the head knowledge about trees specifically was EQUAL, and one had a lot more climbing experience, the climber would have an advantage.If the non-climber had also put in the years experience-wise and been working with climbing arborists, the gap between them starts to become a bit more inconsequential.

I wouldn't even bother to consider an arborist for lead position if they hadn't put in the years, whether they climbed or not.

Here's one for you...

How about the arborist that is a Certified Landscape Technician on top of being a Certified Arborist - who is worth more pay and responsibility?

Which one is most likely to understand the effects of big trees on turf and landscaping, such as what is at risk to sunburn and what is not when it comes to limb or tree removal?

Quite a few CAs that climb have taken the ISA test for tree ID. How many can pass twice that much testing for other plants and shrubs, and have knowledge of their needs in relation to being near trees?

Some climbing arborists tend try to keep the discussion on the two lane highway of arborist + climbing. As opposed to comprehensive horticultural knowledge, of which arboriculture is one fragment. Full scale horticultural arboriculture within the entire landscape, is more like an 8 lane highway.

Really, who cares if we know how to climb or how to prune this tree or that tree? That's not really arboriculture. Arboriculture is not just trees, but coordinating tree growth and the effects of trees within entire landscaped yards and gardens.

So if an arborist only knows trees and climbing, they are still in some stage of puberty in true horticultural arboriculture. Let them understand the entire landscape, then they can earn the right to beat their chest a bit more


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> If the head knowledge about trees specifically was EQUAL, and one had a lot more climbing experience, the climber would have an advantage.
> 
> If the non-climber had also put in the years experience-wise and been working with climbing arborists, the gap between them starts to become a bit more inconsequential.
> 
> Here's one for you...
> 
> How about the arborist that is a Certified Landscape Technician on top of being a Certified Arborist - who is worth more pay and responsibility?
> 
> Which one is most likely to understand the effects of big trees on turf and landscaping, such as what is at risk to sunburn and what is not when it comes to limb or tree removal?
> 
> Most CAs that climb have taken the ISA test for tree ID. How many can pass twice that much testing for other plants and shrubs, and have knowledge of their needs for light, or how brittle they are when working around them?
> 
> Some climbing arborists tend try to keep the discussion on the two lane highway of arborist + climbing. As opposed to comprehensive horticultural knowledge, of which arboriculture is one fragment.
> 
> Really, who cares if you know how to climb or how to prune this tree or that tree?
> 
> That's not really arboriculture.
> 
> Arboriculture is not just trees, but coordinating tree growth and the effects of trees within entire landscaped yards and gardens.
> 
> So if an arborist only knows trees and climbing, they are still just between toddler and puberty in true horticultural arboriculture. Let them start to master understanding the entire landscape, then they can earn the right to beat their chest.


I guess I am mistaken about arborist knowing about trees in landscape
and how consideration of the whole environment is what phc is all about.
If pruning and climbing is not arboculture then why is it in the study?
I have been preparing for nothing,may as well be a hack! This is some
mentality, all the knowledge in every book in horticulture does no good 
unless someone performs the work. It seems we have a two blade edge
or in Indian a forked tounge,horticulturists is the only one qualified to
govern phc so maybe they should be the ones doing the work.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> I guess I am mistaken about arborist knowing about trees in landscape
> and how consideration of the whole environment is what phc is all about.
> If pruning and climbing is not arboculture then why is it in the study?
> I have been preparing for nothing,may as well be a hack! This is some
> mentality, all the knowledge in every book in horticulture does no good
> unless someone performs the work. It seems we have a two blade edge
> or in Indian a forked tounge,horticulturists is the only one qualified to
> govern phc so maybe they should be the ones doing the work.



Arborists can do a lot of good with just tree knowledge.

It's just that they become better when understanding more than that.

Trees, for example, can affect how much red thread fungus get into turfgrass. Does that seem relevant to you?

Between Loropetalum and New Zealand Flax, which one is more likely to be harmed by removal of limbs that increases exposure to sun, and which one may flourish with the extra sun?

This introduces the aspect of how much to remove and when, whether or not to postpone removals until autumn or winter if the wait does not compromise safety, and whether or not other plants need protection.

On the other hand, if 95% of the trees which the arborist will work on are street trees with no landscaping or other plants nearby, the need for extra plant knowledge is far less relevant.

If shrubs come into play, in many cases the damage is not like ultra-devastating, but the results could have been a lot better. Sometimes the damage is significant, but commonly, the damage is more along the lines of unsightly plants for a year or two.

First one that comes to mind, was 3 birches removed in a yard in front of the house, causing sunburn to all the shrubs beneath it, slightly behind, and slightly north.

And the homeowners told me they were in no hurry, and could easily have waited to have the arborist come in autumn instead. But too late.

Probably knew his trees and meant well, but didn't know his shrubs and that the ones there would get burned worse than usual.


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> Arborists can do a lot of good with just tree knowledge.
> 
> It's just that they become better when understanding more than that.
> 
> Trees, for example, can affect how much red thread fungus get into turfgrass. Does that seem relevant to you?
> 
> Between Loropetalum and New Zealand Flax, which one is more likely to be harmed by removal of limbs that increases exposure to sun, and which one may flourish with the extra sun?
> 
> This introduces the aspect of how much to remove and when, whether or not to postpone removals until autumn or winter if the wait does not compromise safety, and whether or not other plants need protection.
> 
> On the other hand, if 95% of the trees which the arborist will work on are street trees with no landscaping or other plants nearby, the need for extra plant knowledge is far less relevant.
> 
> If shrubs come into play, in many cases the damage is not like ultra-devastating, but the results could have been a lot better. Sometimes the damage is significant, but commonly, the damage is more along the lines of unsightly plants for a year or two.
> 
> First one that comes to mind, was 3 birches removed in a yard in front of the house, causing sunburn to all the shrubs beneath it, slightly behind, and slightly north.
> 
> And the homeowners told me they were in no hurry, and could easily have waited to have the arborist come in autumn instead. But too late.
> 
> Probably knew his trees and meant well, but didn't know his shrubs and that the ones there would get burned worse than usual.



Good point and it is in the principals of phc to consult with other 
professionals to create common ground. No one has enough time
to know everything so coordination with landscape contractors
is necessary in good phc. That is different than what I am speaking
about and I admit to have barely scratched the surface in learning
the science end of horticulture! I will get there and am not interested
in beating my chest. I an more interested in doing a good job for my
clients and have referred them elsewhere when I don't or can't find
the correct solution. Is that not what arborist is supposed to be?


----------



## treeseer

ropen, sorry you missed out on the job--company's loss too. Get that ticket so you are ready next time. You must have the passion, if you are up at 3 a.m. talking about this stuff. I hope that passion extends to study so you pass!

beck the soloist still needed someone to make the guitar and the amp and write the music and record and publish and market and sell it so he can eat.

It ain't rocket science. It's harder! Trees interact with other living systems, as Mario alluded to, which makes them more complex than rockets.

There was once a book guy who came out and told arborists that they needed to quit using stuff they had been using for decades. Some arborists were not accepting this book guy's instructions. After all, he had never climbed!

The book guy was Alex Shigo.

The stuff was pruning paint.

:taped: 

clearance I got no contempt for climbers; I will be one until someone pries my cold dead fingers from my rope and saw. But my body can't do 40 hrs/week anymore, so if I didn't learn something else I would be even poorer and crankier than I am now.

O and re your contempt for writers, having done both I gotta say that being a good writer is way more difficult and way way less common than being a good climber. Re your underinformed supervisors, maybe if you met them halfway by learning more about their expertise, they would respect your expertise more.


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> Delegation.
> 
> I hire different CA climbing arborists myself. I don't tell them how to climb - they already take care of continued training themselves. All I have to do is coordinate what trees I need done, and when.
> 
> They know what to do when they get up there.
> 
> I don't work with any powerline stuff, but if I did, the simplicity of it is to hire the person who is qualified.





You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!

I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!! Ill have to tell my carpenter buddies, you dont have to nail anything!!! just delegate some authority, "manage someone to nail"

Treeseer, I am a musician, I actually play an instrument, I practice as often as possible!! But I dont tell fellow musicians how to play their instruments!! your analogy is a joke!! Conductors read, write & play or have the ability to do such. Herein is the KEY difference!! they have done what it is they are managing(conducting).

as far as the book millionaires, well the dollar amount may be exagerated but I thought that would be appropriate & fitting as it relates in a way to the situation, ya know!! Arborists that cant or never did climb that think they are true Arborist, Now this is an exageration.

What ISA should do is make the certification more precise, instead of just adding different Certs.! for instance you have all these wonderful titles before the word Arborist, how bout stating on the cert. Non-climbing Arborist & for those that climb; Arborist/Tree climber specialist, that way the general public knows as well as the entity hiring the arborist!!

when someone hires an Arborist the thought is they are getting the whole package, the best the industry has to offer!! In a way I consider it fraud to advertise the Arborist logo when you are unable to perform a part of what should be & used to be a requirement. I bet if they put a Non-climber designation before the Arborist title people would find no need for you to serve them in the tree care field!!

If your whole thing is theres more to trees than climbing, your right! but become a Horticulturist, Biologist or a Botanist not an Arborist! If you want to manage people get a Degree in business Management, my thoughts are you are the ones who dont understand, you want your "Title" as an Arborist to cover & include these fields, because you couldnt obtain the proper Title. 

LXT.................


----------



## OTG BOSTON

M.D. Vaden said:


> If you think that a Certified Arborist cannot manage from the ground, like for a city like Los Angeles or Boston, without him or her being a skilled climber, there is a logic dilemna.



So true. However, my two predecessors were not as "hands on" as I am. I have been at this job for longer than both of them put together. 

I attribute my success to the respect of the people who work for me.
At any given time I will show up at a worksite with my climbing gear and proceed to prove why I DESERVE to be the boss (because I will never ask a subordinate to do something I won't do myself).

All this fighting back and forth is useless, If you are complaining about someone elses credentials or skills (or lack thereof) you have unresolved issues with yourself IMHO................


----------



## lxt

Funny OTG, you mention complaining about credentials, I dont want it to be a battle or anything!! But in todays world everyone wants to make a buck off the back of someone else!! & if they can get a piece of paper to help in this ignorance they will!! seen many like this!

If your doctors credentials are misleading or false, I bet you would complain!! My main beef is, the public views Arborists as the total package to tree care & the ISA even promotes or did untill they developed new Certs.

I deal with alot of CA`s, many have told me I should get my Cert. said I have very good knowledge & my continuing self educating attitude is a good thing, After explaining to them how I feel, surprising enough they agree!! funny how most of these guys were former climbers & still do climb on occasion. 

The opposite can be said about those who dont/cant climb, these are the arrogant, I am better cause im Certified, book smart, wanting to MANAGE for the authority high it gives them types!! they are the reason a climbing standard should be part of the program, maybe it would Humble them a little!

LXT...............


----------



## OTG BOSTON

lxt said:


> Funny OTG, you mention complaining about credentials, I dont want it to be a battle or anything!! But in todays world everyone wants to make a buck off the back of someone else!! & if they can get a piece of paper to help in this ignorance they will!! seen many like this!
> 
> If your doctors credentials are misleading or false, I bet you would complain!! My main beef is, the public views Arborists as the total package to tree care & the ISA even promotes or did untill they developed new Certs.
> 
> I deal with alot of CA`s, many have told me I should get my Cert. said I have very good knowledge & my continuing self educating attitude is a good thing, After explaining to them how I feel, surprising enough they agree!! funny how most of these guys were former climbers & still do climb on occasion.
> 
> The opposite can be said about those who dont/cant climb, these are the arrogant, I am better cause im Certified, book smart, wanting to MANAGE for the authority high it gives them types!! they are the reason a climbing standard should be part of the program, maybe it would Humble them a little!
> 
> LXT...............



Wow, you do have the worst case of climbermassiveegoitis I have ever seen! 

Don't put down someone elses credentials EVER, it is just poor form. If you got yourself certified and then decided to crap on it, that would be a different story...........


----------



## bigshea13

climbing and cutting is all that makes an arborist, then we are just loggers who get vertical. When I climb tomorrow I'll enjoy it, but it will not define me or my work. Way too narrow.




dont misconstrue what ive wrote. being able to climb and cut by no means defines and arborist. but if you cant do either your not an arborist your nothing but a localized taxonomist. for the majority of the time the saw and the saddle define tree care. eventually down the road if its being properly maintained the tree will be pruned/cabled/inspected/collected from ect. with your butt always on the ground it hard to see trew the leaves. 
how do you professionally treat a tree when you cant even get up there to inspect it. i guess those arborists that doent climb or cut think they are <for lack of better terms,"ABOVE" all that. keep handing out certs to lazy bastards and the animosity between arborists and line clearence workers as well as the rest of the industry will rage on.


----------



## bigshea13

lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!! Ill have to tell my carpenter buddies, you dont have to nail anything!!! just delegate some authority, "manage someone to nail"
> 
> 
> Arborists that cant or never did climb that think they are true Arborist, Now this is an exageration
> 
> when someone hires an Arborist the thought is they are getting the whole package, the best the industry has to offer!! In a way I consider it fraud to advertise the Arborist logo when you are unable to perform a part of what should be & used to be a requirement. I bet if they put a Non-climber designation before the Arborist title people would find no need for you to serve them in the tree care field!!
> 
> If your whole thing is theres more to trees than climbing, your right! but become a Horticulturist, Biologist or a Botanist not an Arborist! If you want to manage people get a Degree in business Management, my thoughts are you are the ones who dont understand, you want your "Title" as an Arborist to cover & include these fields, because you couldnt obtain the proper Title.
> 
> LXT.................


  :rockn: 
well put


----------



## lxt

OTG BOSTON said:


> Wow, you do have the worst case of climbermassiveegoitis I have ever seen!
> 
> Don't put down someone elses credentials EVER, it is just poor form. If you got yourself certified and then decided to crap on it, that would be a different story...........



I dont think I put anyone down!! where is this mentioned in my post, I am relaying personal experiences with CA`s that I had. Sorry to offend!!

I call it as I see it, or how it has been done to me!! may not hold true for others as I truely hope it doesnt!! But in the same sense I wonder how others feel in regards as to how Arborists treat them? or how the horticulturist feels about a CA thinking they are on a similar level, or the Botanist or the Biologist, maybe we should ask them?

Maybe they have a case of Arboristmassiveegotitis, which may have prompted the attitude I currently have toward them, When the ISA`s guidelines for CA`s change then so will my attitude cause im betting that when CA`s have to climb, many will go away & those that dont will have a better understanding!!

funny thing is I dont need a CA!!, they need me & I need my team!! if that CA wants to join in climb, cut, chip, rake, load wood, run ropes, etc... the way it should be or atleast having done this!! then good for him & I respect that........That is an Arborist not in & of itself but in the fact they are performing what it is their title stands for or part thereof!!

LXT..................


----------



## lxt

treeseer said:


> A living tree is a symphony, and it needs many musicians to keep its instruments in harmony. Climbing and cutting are like the strings; essential, but so are the woodwinds and the percussion. And without the conductor, music would not happen.
> 
> :rockn:
> 
> Same with rock music--the lead guitarist might think he's king, but without bass and drums he would go nowhere. And without a songwriter, he'd have nothing to play.




You bring up music Treeseer so Ill give you a true example & how it relates to our industry:

I am a Guitarist, I have played in bands & Instruct part time, I dont tell fellow musicians how to play their instrument of choice, funny how in music for one to get their degree they have to be proficient in piano, woodwinds, brass or voice. If they cant perform *Proficiently* all these things they dont get a degree!! according to your thought process, I really wouldnt even have to play an instrument to be an instructor or a musician!

The key is Proficient, no ones saying they have to master the climbing aspects just have to show ability to do it, It would atleast be nice to know the CA could perform an aerial rescue if need be!!

LXT....................


----------



## ropensaddle

OTG BOSTON said:


> So true. However, my two predecessors were not as "hands on" as I am. I have been at this job for longer than both of them put together.
> 
> I attribute my success to the respect of the people who work for me.
> At any given time I will show up at a worksite with my climbing gear and proceed to prove why I DESERVE to be the boss (because I will never ask a subordinate to do something I won't do myself).
> 
> All this fighting back and forth is useless, If you are complaining about someone elses credentials or skills (or lack thereof) you have unresolved issues with yourself IMHO................


That is what most have been saying all along, if you are boss over
climbers you should have or still climb. Maybe respect is not needed
to manage who knows,but I would not care to manage without it!
It is the astronaut telling the rocket scientist how to build rockets!


----------



## treeseer

Good points OTG!

Here's a climber certification, for those who are climbers. I got it a few months ago; it was a good way to document my climbing ability, to help my earning potential. The below is from this page: http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/treeworker.aspx

Passing the knowledge portion of this test is a good prep for CA. The cost was negligible compared to the value of the experience and the certification. If the original poster is still around--consider it.

ISA Certified Tree Worker/ Climber Specialist

These credential holders have a minimum of 18 months experience professionally climbing trees in a safe and efficient manner to perform tree care. They have knowledge in the major aspects involved in tree care including, pruning, removal, cabling and safety. They must pass a knowledge exam and a skills exam conducted by trained evaluators.

If you are getting ready to test for the Certified Tree Worker Exam and have participated in the ISA Chapter or International Tree Climbing Championships, you may waive the work climb portion of the skills exam for the ISA Certified Tree Worker/ Climber Specialist (CTW/CS) certification exam providing you satisfy all of the other requirements. Should you have any questions regarding the Skills waiver please contact the ISA Certification Department. Please make sure the form is filled out completely and signed by the ISA certified Tree Worker Evaluator before submittal. Click here to download a copy of the Skills Exam Waiver Form.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!!



You probably think that by not searching beyond the fragment that you read, and your opinion of it.

Basically, it's your set limit of experience and opinion from a remote vantage point, set as an anti-thesis to the references in my files. It's just that those references had a first-hand vantage point.

If you don't think I get into the work here ... here's a few scraps of images in following replies.

It takes getting covered with algea and saw dust to hand prune trees like this 50 foot wide Mt. Fuji every year.

*There will be several images following, because this thread is "becoming an arborist" - and these images will show how an arborist can choose to gain mastery of not just arboriculture, but add the full range of the green trades to the day by day work.*


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!!



Maybe it's a figment of several people's imagination that I got filthy spending several hours trying to renovate this abused walnut tree?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!!



lxt

Are you one of the few who believes that the upper image can become the lower image over 2 six hour days without dirt and sweat?


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> Maybe it's a figment of several people's imagination that I got filthy spending several hours trying to renovate this abused walnut tree?



Abused is right good grief that tree may be better off
cut still loads of weak attachments! Whats the targets?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> Abused is right good grief that tree may be better off
> cut still loads of weak attachments! Whats the targets?



Had to give it some time, but after a couple of years, they heard I was up in Portland for a week, and got a call in on my last day, so I stayed another night.

Here is round #2 to give their garden a bit more light, and clear it from the gutter and roof. Light to moderate this time.

It's finally starting to take shape. They plan to build a single level garage next to the two story house, so I got the canopy up enough that no contractors need to put their hands on it.


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> Had to give it some time, but after a couple of years, they heard I was up in Portland for a week, and got a call in on my last day, so I stayed another night.
> 
> Here is round #2 to give their garden a bit more light, and clear it from the gutter and roof. Light to moderate this time.
> 
> It's finally starting to take shape. They plan to build a single level garage next to the two story house, so I got the canopy up enough that no contractors need to put their hands on it.



Good work however you would not call the structure weak?
I know you did not have much to work with and did a fine
job I admit! Are there any cables placed for crown support?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!!



Now, we can't assume that this water feature dug itself, and placed its own basalt boulders in place.

Basically, I'm posting these images to contrast with your statement.

This is the tip of the iceberg - both size and difficulty.

Now the trees and landscape photos posted were my own handywork.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> Good work however you would not call the structure weak?
> I know you did not have much to work with and did a fine
> job I admit! Are there any cables placed for crown support?



The basic central trunk area is not weak. It's more like there are some weak areas that need work, but it's probably going to take 2 more prunings over 4 more years to eradicate the remaining boo-boos.

I had just discarded an image of a view looking down between the leaders from above, because it was not clear enough for a slideshow, but the middle area between is a broad widely curved valley, about 36" wide.

So basically, the hidden central circular crotch is 36" wide. Most of the unions between the leaders have "U" shapes between them. So amazingly, other than a handful of small "V"s here and there, its a really stout "sucker".

There is like the huge bowl shape of solid wood tissue in the center concave area. It's not at all like some trunks we've seen where a tree was stubbed and water sprouts shot-out from a stub-trunk. In other words, the attachment of the main leaders is not like what you saw on some limbs where they were previouly topped. But the only way to see it, is to be on a ladder or in the tree looking down inside.

No wonder someone was tempted to put a tree house inside there. It's like a concave platform in the middle. There is probably room for 10 men to stand packed together on the central union inside.


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> The basic central trunk area is not weak. It's more like there are some weak areas that need work, but it's probably going to take 2 more prunings over 4 more years to eradicate the remaining boo-boos.
> 
> I had just discarded an image of a view looking down between the leaders from above, because it was not clear enough for a slideshow, but the middle area between is a broad widely curved valley, about 36" wide.
> 
> So basically, the hidden central circular crotch is 36" wide. Most of the unions between the leaders have "U" shapes between them. So amazingly, other than a handful of small "V"s here and there, its a really stout "sucker".
> 
> There is like the huge bowl shape of solid wood tissue in the center concave area. It's not at all like some trunks we've seen where a tree was stubbed and water sprouts shot-out from a stub-trunk. In other words, the attachment of the main leaders is not like what you saw on some limbs where they were previouly topped. But the only way to see it, is to be on a ladder or in the tree looking down inside.
> 
> No wonder someone was tempted to put a tree house inside there. It's like a concave platform in the middle. There is probably room for 10 men to stand packed together on the central union inside.


I did notice it seemed to have been topped twice they sure
wanted it low Anyway good work on the trees and
landscape!


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> I did notice it seemed to have been topped twice they sure
> wanted it low



Yeah... there's no way of hiding their hanky panky on that tree.

Hey... I'm hoping ltx pops in here again, because I want to hear his reasoning for this quote I've repeated several times.



lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!!



ltx... these are for you

What odds should we place, that the image above, became the image below in 5 days, without any dirt and sweat?

And that's not the same lawn by the way. Stripped bare to the bone, and rebuilt in 5 days.

The reason for the pruning and landscape photos, is two-fold. One was your opinion expressed in the quoted statement. The other, is to provide one glimpse at a level of arboriculture coupled with landscape architecture and landscape contracting, where the same professional manages and "hands-on" performs the entire range of green industry trades.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> You hire a different person(CA)? pertaining to the job at hand, sounds like a general contractor to me, not an Arborist!!
> 
> I read your posts & it seems to me all you care about is managing "the right person" cause you yourself are unable to perform the tasks that people unknowingly hire you for!! for people like you there should be a "Lab Arborist" certification, for people that dont wanna get dirty or just dont know how, what a shame!!



Now this little pest is tougher than any big tree I've worked on.

This Engineers "$9000 pine" (1980s cost) is a topiary above a small fountain, with a 14' drop-off behind the rail, and no place for an orchard ladder.

*The previous replies and images indicate that an arborist may choose to expand their skill and knowledge beyond the limits of tree pruning and removals.*


----------



## OTG BOSTON

*Nice pics Mario*

These certified/non-certified threads get old after a while, glad to have some nice pics to look at


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> Maybe it's a figment of several people's imagination that I got filthy spending several hours trying to renovate this abused walnut tree?




So you personally renovated the tree? If so.... I ask you, Is that not what you are suppose to do?

Most of the images Ive looked at are landscape scenario`s, Nice work!! but nothing out of the ordinary, overall nicely done!!

Look im not trying to be insultive here, but it insults me & many others to know someone is a CA & unable to do their job fully!! Did you read any of my posts? the whole post instead of fragments!!! answer those questions or rebutt those statements.

By the way websters definition of an Arborist is: a specialist in the care & maintenance of trees.

funny how it says nothing of managing!!, Now...Did you do all that work in those pictures or did you hire a landscape technician with crew? getting dirty doesnt mean working 1-2hrs till you sweat, then letting someone else take over(if this is the situation) Nor does it mean working here & there through out the summer & when you total up the hours they equal like 45 worked hours!!! thats boredom, thats being shamed, thats you thinking the guys will think you are something your not if you work a lil.

LXT..............


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> Yeah... there's no way of hiding their hanky panky on that tree.
> 
> Hey... I'm hoping ltx pops in here again, because I want to hear his reasoning for this quote I've repeated several times.
> 
> 
> 
> ltx... these are for you
> 
> What odds should we place, that the image above, became the image below in 5 days, without any dirt and sweat?
> 
> And that's not the same lawn by the way. Stripped bare to the bone, and rebuilt in 5 days.
> 
> The reason for the pruning and landscape photos, is two-fold. One was your opinion expressed in the quoted statement. The other, is to provide one glimpse at a level of arboriculture coupled with landscape architecture and landscape contracting, where the same professional manages and "hands-on" performs the entire range of green industry trades.



exactly what im talking about, the "entire range of the green Industry" as you put it!! it is broken into sections my man!! trees=arborculture!! therefore an arborist deals with trees(read above definition) & not grass!!

botanist`s, horticulturists, arborists, nurserymen/women, landscape technicians, etc... all have their place within the "green Industry" that is why there are many fields!!! *If you are an Arborist what field do you serve?* Again you want your certification to cover fields that you were unable to get Certified in or obtain a degree in. 

*The term manage as used by you arborists is misleading & falsely used!!* you are to manage the *Tree(s)* regiment of care, maintenance, removal, prescribed treatment or a course of action involving tree(s).

How you think Manage refers to people when it truely refers to the overall aspects & care of trees just further shows your ignorance!! & you are adamate about Managing as are others, better get a reality check!!

If you wish to manage get a Business management Degree then hire the right people for the job cause that is what this title does, hence the Degree associated with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The work you show is nice, but dont mis-construe what title it is that you hold! *It is a specific title within a large field catering to a specific element within that field.....Trees*

LXT................


----------



## lxt

As I sit here & read posts pertaining to Certified/Non-certified It has actually prompted me to open up & gloss through the Arborists Certification Study Guide. Why is that you ask? surprised LXT even has such? Im reading this book to try to find out where some of you are coming from!!

As I gloss through the book I must actually thank some of you as it has refreshed my memory in some aspects I may have forgotten or just dont use that often.


*Special Note:*
I do notice something of interest though, a chapter I dont give much attention to......chapter 15 MMmmm Im wondering why would *climbing & working in trees* have a chapter in an arborist study guide? along with sample test questions? I mean whats its purpose? according to some of you these skills are a by-product & not really necessary, a means to an end as one posted!! The truth is gentleman you are suppose to climb & have intimate knowledge in that ability!! you can argue the non-climbing aspects all you want.

Like a good spaghetti sauce, Its in there!! 

Again the CA designation has been simplified to a point I bet a 14-15yr old 
kid could pass it!! *without a skills test* plain and simply put, this certification borders on being a joke!! Chapter 15 isnt in there for nothing!!

LXT..............


----------



## Job Corps Tree

*Becoming a Arborist*

I have been a CA for 10 Years ,Best thing I have done. I had been doing Tree Work for 17 years when I took the ISA test,


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> As I sit here & read posts pertaining to Certified/Non-certified It has actually prompted me to open up & gloss through the Arborists Certification Study Guide. Why is that you ask? surprised LXT even has such? Im reading this book to try to find out where some of you are coming from!!
> 
> As I gloss through the book I must actually thank some of you as it has refreshed my memory in some aspects I may have forgotten or just dont use that often.
> 
> 
> *Special Note:*
> I do notice something of interest though, a chapter I dont give much attention to......chapter 15 MMmmm Im wondering why would *climbing & working in trees* have a chapter in an arborist study guide? along with sample test questions? I mean whats its purpose? according to some of you these skills are a by-product & not really necessary, a means to an end as one posted!! The truth is gentleman you are suppose to climb & have intimate knowledge in that ability!! you can argue the non-climbing aspects all you want.
> 
> Like a good spaghetti sauce, Its in there!!
> 
> Again the CA designation has been simplified to a point I bet a 14-15yr old
> kid could pass it!! *without a skills test* plain and simply put, this certification borders on being a joke!! Chapter 15 isnt in there for nothing!!
> 
> LXT..............



Might not be as big a concern as it seems.

When I took my landscape licenses as well, and served 6 years on the Oregon license board as a board member, I didn't get too concerned about why there was an entire section in the exam on laws and rules.

It's just something they wanted to make sure the landscape people didn't miss.

But I see no way that knowing all the laws and rules makes any landscaper proficient at the technical aspect of what they do. It supposedly makes them a more aware contractor withing the contracting business aspect.

Of course ISAs chapters are there for something. The chapters are there because ISA wants them there.

ISA and the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board both have something in common. They both realize that the tests include aspects which won't be done by the professional. The testing programs are designed to cause "The Whole" to be accountable and knowledgeable beyond the scope of the individual. And it's done by the testing giving to each individual.


----------



## D Mc

Mario, thanks for posting those nice pictures. Restoration takes not only skill but knowledge and self-control realizing you can't fix it all at once. Well done. 

I consider bonsai one of the highest forms of artistic pruning. I have seen many guys who can climb trees well, some that were true technicians at removals and very few that had both the ability to climb and the artistic eye to produce a work of art through pruning.

I also like the use of separation of turf and trees. We are strong advocates of this separation and trying to educate our clients that trees and turf are not "fish and chips". They actually do better seperated. 


Lxt, whether an arborist can climb or not climb physically is a round robin argument. It is no more correct to say you can climb a tree therefore you are an arborist. That is the whole reason the certification came into place; to protect homeowners from tree climbers with that attitude. The fact is, most certified arborists do know something about climbing, and I think they should. But to limit the entire field to just those few people who have both the physical and mental skills capable of the difficult jobs is not appropriate in today's world. There are 14 other chapters in the Arborist's Cert Study Guide dealing with all the many aspects of being an arborist. Today's arborist needs to have a broader knowledge than ever before.

If you do not have your certification, go ahead and get it so you can be one of the few that you feel "deserve" to have it. After all..."it's so easy".

D Mc


----------



## OTG BOSTON

*fought the good fight*

Mario, you fought the good fight. Threads like this are useless. Although the post above says it all............


----------



## NYCHA FORESTER

*Now I understand*


----------



## lxt

D Mc said:


> If you do not have your certification, go ahead and get it so you can be one of the few that you feel "deserve" to have it. After all..."it's so easy".
> 
> D Mc



In regards to the above, why would I want to get it? to pay out a ridiculous amount of money so I can be part of the "club", so I can say Im much more knowledgeable & ohh by the way I can actually climb & perform what the Cert. title suggests!! *I already do this!!* as I sit here & type this I am surrounded by books, photos,training manuals etc.. that pertain to our biz, I study this field as often as possible, am a member of many org`s for the betterment of tree care & the practices involved.

you guys who actually have the Cert. & the climbing exp. I have no beef with you & respect you!! dont you feel disenfranchised that others have the same Cert.(book knowledge) & not the ability to go aloft to perform & apply that knowledge?

I think this is a "round robin" fight because more & more people are obtaining this CA designation & lack/dont want the skills to apply what they know up there!! & by agreeing to that fact would be admitting what Ive been saying all along.

By the very definition of the term Arborist: I am one, as well are others!! the fact that we are not certified by an entity that monopolizes the field makes no difference! In my meetings with CA`s I have found myself to be just as knowing in some areas, more in some & less in others.

broader knowlegde with the inability to use it except for on the ground in some`s case....very nice, Im just glad atleast my groundies can perform an aerial rescue if need be!! & I beleive safety was one of the other Chapters too.

LXT..........


----------



## ropensaddle

lxt I may have agreed with you on some of your management
issues earlier. I feel it is different in this scenario,a coordination
of professionals is way different than where this headed.
I work with landscape architects from time to time in my
local area and that is way different than boss this and that.
I feel the high end work MD is doing he doesn't go telling a
arborist how to climb, but does make sure he is who he says he is!
I also feel he would pay for the best suited for the job and if
thats the case,what is the problem with that? The relationships
with my local landscape architect's has made me some very
good money and no rush type work! Coordinating by someone
with a breadth of knowledge superior to mine is what learning
is all about.


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> Might not be as big a concern as it seems.
> 
> When I took my landscape licenses as well, and served 6 years on the Oregon license board as a board member, I didn't get too concerned about why there was an entire section in the exam on laws and rules.
> 
> It's just something they wanted to make sure the landscape people didn't miss.
> 
> But I see no way that knowing all the laws and rules makes any landscaper proficient at the technical aspect of what they do. It supposedly makes them a more aware contractor withing the contracting business aspect.
> 
> Of course ISAs chapters are there for something. The chapters are there because ISA wants them there.
> 
> 
> 
> ISA and the Oregon Landscape Contractors Board both have something in common. They both realize that the tests include aspects which won't be done by the professional. The testing programs are designed to cause "The Whole" to be accountable and knowledgeable beyond the scope of the individual. And it's done by the testing giving to each individual.





There are books on the laws of Arborculture, even the tree wardens handbook has case law quoted in it!! laws & rules should be outlined by each town, city, etc..when you acquire the permit or work order, thats why there are inspectors!! these sections are there for reference, not for you to know!!

This is why we have Lawyers, if you were tested on the law in this regard you would no doubt then think you have the right to represent also!!

you think ISA wants it there? its there because you needed to do it in order to become an arborist!! the only difference that has changed in todays requirement! 

I thought your arguement was "Management" Now landscape pic`s, where Im from grass cutters do just what you have shown here, seriously!! not meant as a bust, Even demo. co`s put in lawns, tress & water features.
as long as they follow the rules & guidlines as set forth by the authority that oversees adherence to these rules.......that is the problem with ISA & CA`s.

You guys wanna be the overseeing authority & think your title gives you jurisdiction over & above what it stands for( some of you!!), as Long as I follow ANSI rules & regulations, which I beleive is the authority governing this matter & if so why then I dont see the need to become a CA.

I think memberships, newsletters, mag`s & other Info to keep one abreast of new technologies, methods, theories, etc...while implementing & following the guidelines mentioned above is just as good as any Cert. relating to this field.


LXT............


----------



## lxt

ropensaddle said:


> lxt I may have agreed with you on some of your management
> issues earlier. I feel it is different in this scenario,a coordination
> of professionals is way different than where this headed.
> I work with landscape architects from time to time in my
> local area and that is way different than boss this and that.
> I feel the high end work MD is doing he doesn't go telling a
> arborist how to climb, but does make sure he is who he says he is!
> I also feel he would pay for the best suited for the job and if
> thats the case,what is the problem with that? The relationships
> with my local landscape architect's has made me some very
> good money and no rush type work! Coordinating by someone
> with a breadth of knowledge superior to mine is what learning
> is all about.




I agree if this is the true intent! & am always willing to learn, but Im not hold a non-climbing CA`s opinion to mean much if it deals with issues aloft, can we all atleast agree on this!!

LXT.........good post!


----------



## OTG BOSTON

lxt said:


> you guys who actually have the Cert. & the climbing exp. I have no beef with you & respect you!! dont you feel disenfranchised that others have the same Cert.(book knowledge) & not the ability to go aloft to perform & apply that knowledge?



how can I put this to make you understand????

NO


----------



## ropensaddle

lxt said:


> I agree if this is the true intent! & am always willing to learn, but Im not hold a non-climbing CA`s opinion to mean much if it deals with issues aloft, can we all atleast agree on this!!
> 
> LXT.........good post!



Safety issues aloft can be hard to spot from the ground so yes!
I don't feel that is what MD has been saying at all! I do know 
there are control freaks out there and is a way different scenario
than someone holding a bs or masters in horticulture, coordinating
with arborist. I have been in these scenarios and learned something
every time!


----------



## lxt

OTG BOSTON said:


> how can I put this to make you understand????
> 
> NO





Then you are one of the very few!!! 

I just dont understand how someone in a field relating specifically to trees & is suppose to be the steward for the industry for the care & maintenance of them, Actually beleive they dont need to be able to climb to perform what is clearly a function of their titles duty!!

Ex: I tell my Utility CA that a limb on an oak tree is gonna fail what do you want me to do? nothing he says!! cause production is key here!! later that summer Im back taking that limb off the 3 phase, utility checks the work order, I take guff over it cause I should of known better than to leave something like that!!

Did that CA step up? Hell NO! & knowing he will inspect future work of mine I let it go, dont wanna upset the ole CA, same reply Ive heard a dozen times from certain CA`s "I dont go up there" If I did what would I need you for?

this is wrong!! if you cant atleast get up there to inspect something(no ones asking you to take down some chest thumping 100ft oak tree) then you dont deserve to be a CA!! Plain & simple.

LXT...........


----------



## lxt

Id like to ask a question, & I dont mean to come off rude or non-civil as I think some may have that thought & if so I apologize.

I am a Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer!! I have undergone hands on as well as classroom training, within the classroom....I and many others were trained using ANSI regulations....NAA,ACRT, ISA & Davey Tree training formaids, took tests which would rival any test for a CA out there & these test were actually overseen by representatives from the entities mentioned above. 

it was pass or fail at which time results were sent to the JATC (joint apprenticeship training council) & a certification granted by the Dept of Labor was issued upon successful completion!! Now.... I have identified trees, diagnosed & provided remedy`s, performed just about all aspects of tree care that can be done at one time or another & then some!!

The training is ongoing & refresher courses are offered along with workplace tailgate meetings, safety meetings, etc...etc...

So tell me what more the ISA`s CA designation will do for me, is it truely that over & above what I have been through? I probably attend more add on training & refresher courses dealing with the proper care of trees not just in utility settings but in residential & other settings in a month than most CA`s go through in their 3yr ceu obtaining time frame.

Just wandering how the CA title is any better than what I already have?

LXT..............


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> Id like to ask a question, & I dont mean to come off rude or non-civil as I think some may have that thought & if so I apologize.
> 
> I am a Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer!! I have undergone hands on as well as classroom training, within the classroom....I and many others were trained using ANSI regulations....NAA,ACRT, ISA & Davey Tree training formaids, took tests which would rival any test for a CA out there & these test were actually overseen by representatives from the entities mentioned above.
> 
> it was pass or fail at which time results were sent to the JATC (joint apprenticeship training council) & a certification granted by the Dept of Labor was issued upon successful completion!! Now.... I have identified trees, diagnosed & provided remedy`s, performed just about all aspects of tree care that can be done at one time or another & then some!!
> 
> The training is ongoing & refresher courses are offered along with workplace tailgate meetings, safety meetings, etc...etc...
> 
> So tell me what more the ISA`s CA designation will do for me, is it truely that over & above what I have been through? I probably attend more add on training & refresher courses dealing with the proper care of trees not just in utility settings but in residential & other settings in a month than most CA`s go through in their 3yr ceu obtaining time frame.
> 
> Just wandering how the CA title is any better than what I already have?
> 
> LXT..............



I see the entire body of Certified Arborists as an armor-plating around the profession to protect it from damage. Whatever certification that may be that fits the need.

It should not boil-down to what your profession can do for you, but what you can do for your profession.

Certification is a gift.

ISA did not give to me by granting a certification. I gave to them and others by allowing my support and time to maintain that credential.

If there was no certification, people would have one more obstacle to try and figure out who was knowledgeable.

Certification "gives" the public an extra measure with which to arrive at a decision.

So once again, I see getting Certification as doing something to help other people. It makes it just one step harder for lazy or irrisponsible workers to put a dent in the entire profession.


----------



## treeseer

"dont you feel disenfranchised that others have the same Cert.(book knowledge) & not the ability to go aloft to perform & apply that knowledge?"

NO, not at all. OTG and i know that CA and CTW are different "franchises". I spent 5.5 hours aloft today rigging down 2 white oaks 20" dbh 70' tall in a tight back yard. It's good to know I can still do the work at my advanced age, but all in all a pretty boring day. Not much BCMA knowledge was applied,but the CA rigging stuff came in handy, as well as the CTW climbing knowhow. I was paid well, but I did it mainly for the wood. It's cold!



lxt said:


> I am a Certified Line Clearance Tree Trimmer!!


That's cool; you can be proud of that. I cleared lines for years but never had that taining, which may explain some of my mistakes.:blush:



> I have identified trees, diagnosed & provided remedy`s, performed just about all aspects of tree care that can be done at one time or another & then some .


 If so, would you be kind enough to reawaken that "argument" thread about the ash, and tell us the right way to install a support system in such a challenging tree.

We look forward to learning how it's done, from someone who has done it all "& then some".

opcorn:


----------



## BostonBull

I climb, and have my cert. I dont harbor ANY feelings towards guys who dont climb at all, or never have. Because they would outperform me in other areas such as disease and pest, while I would outoerform those types in a tree.

Correct me if I am wrong but Alex Shigo wasnt known for his climbing! Does that make him NOT an Arborist?


----------



## nitwit dolt

*The difference*

Could this be it? Could this be the defining moment for arboristsite? Do we finally understand the difference between a tree guy and an arborist ( and the guy who can be both)?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

BostonBull said:


> I climb, and have my cert. I dont harbor ANY feelings towards guys who dont climb at all, or never have. Because they would outperform me in other areas such as disease and pest, while I would outoerform those types in a tree.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but Alex Shigo wasnt known for his climbing! Does that make him NOT an Arborist?



That's a classic !!

I've gleaned from Dr. Shigo's teaching about what a climber needs to do and ought to do, and suppose he would be the type of professional I would envision as one who could have managed tree care and arborists. 

Yeah, I've never really heard or read much about him that leaves me with the impression that he was a climber. But it looks like he spent a lot of time managing and directing all types of arborists including climbing arborists.

There were "climbers" that carried out his instruction, right? opcorn:

When I think of Dr. Shigo, the first and foremost thing that comes to mind, are his photographs, his teaching and his writing. And his dissecting. But I'd consider him an arborist 100%. If he is not an arborist - then who is?

Can't raise a glass, but here is raising a photo to Dr. Shigo ...

... sunburn damage - my next article to be written ...


----------



## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> That's a classic !!
> 
> I've gleaned from Dr. Shigo's teaching about what a climber needs to do and ought to do, and suppose he would be the type of professional I would envision as one who could have managed tree care and arborists.
> 
> Yeah, I've never really heard or read much about him that leaves me with the impression that he was a climber. But it looks like he spent a lot of time managing and directing all types of arborists including climbing arborists.
> 
> There were "climbers" that carried out his instruction, right? opcorn:



Now MD you are baiting:hmm3grin2orange: I would say yes.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> Now MD you are baiting:hmm3grin2orange: I would say yes.



I'm one old dog with a lot of energy - so yeah, you were right on that one.

In a good mood I suppose.

Might be partly due to the county efficiently researching and taking care of a right of way need for our property today, but mostly sense of humor.


----------



## ropensaddle

Would that instruction possibly include coordination
with the Arborist's input as well to come to the best
solution for the customer? I can't see a problem in
that type of professional relationship. The job and
customers interests, combined with safety and 
respect between professionals would be management
at the highest level!


----------



## M.D. Vaden

ropensaddle said:


> Would that instruction possibly include coordination
> with the Arborist's input as well to come to the best
> solution for the customer? I can't see a problem in
> that type of professional relationship. The job and
> customers interests, combined with safety and
> respect between professionals would be management
> at the highest level!



Exactly.

And similar to what I saw while on the landscape board. Board members coordinated with the administrator, staff, landscapers, arborists, landscape designers, and even an Assistant Attorney General who came to our meetings.

I'd imagine that Dr. Shigo had respect for many climbers as well.


----------



## lxt

treeseer said:


> If so, would you be kind enough to reawaken that "argument" thread about the ash, and tell us the right way to install a support system in such a challenging tree.
> 
> We look forward to learning how it's done, from someone who has done it all "& then some".
> 
> opcorn:




First off the Ash tree was really not that big a challenge, Basic job tasks that I do every day (except for the support sys.), I do beleive I asked for suggestions on the support Sys, The biggest obstacle was the Arborist!!

I wasnt meaning the "I have done it all & then some" to come across as you have made it sound, what I was meaning by that statement is: I have atleast been taught, applied or tried as many things in regards to tree care as there are to be done, I am by no means a master at all of em!!! but have an understanding about alot of it, thats it!!

If I could post Pic`s I would, Im not a show boat & usually when on a job site im working & not worried about taking pic`s, I do have some neat home owner Pic`s of me cradling(spelling) a 30ft spruce top over his house & garage! these pics are on a cd/dvd so I might try to see about posting them!

Seer, the ash tree & support system to be installed would really be no big deal, just a co-dominant scenario pretty basic stuff!! is a rather tall tree though, now if it were a multi lead that had structural issues that I would try to post!! I will try regardless but this job has not yet been started!!

As far as Shigo goes, I thought it was Dr. Shigo...was he a certified Arborist? or an Honorary? & after all he was a Dr. in the field a little more training than the average CA has!!! If he Climbed what a slap in the non-climbing CA`s face that would be uhh? But he is/was a Doctor....can you say over qualified for climbing, what is a Doctors job description cause Ill bet he fulfilled it & then some!!!

M.D, from your posts its clear you have done work off the ground, Props for that!! I understand managing men & regardless of my Title & this is all im saying...... If you dont/havent or wont climb dont manage a climber!!!

I have been a sub for CA`s, a friend of mine is one, hires me on occassion because of my Lift, knowledge, etc.. & over all I will help anyone who needs it!!! he does CLIMB however!!! I have great respect for him & have learned things from him as he has from me.......bottom line when I work with him or anyone else for that matter my thought is:

*There is no greater Authority up there(in the tree) than the person up there(in the tree)* & as one on here stated!! *I would never ask my men to do something that I wouldnt do*!!


LXT...........


----------



## lxt

mattfr12 said:


> Ive been in the tree care buisness for a good while now and am looking into becoming certified i live in PA and work for Bartlett Tree Experts, the other arborists thier told me you have to work under an Arborist for 3 years before you can get certified is this true? Also can you take the test online and where to get study materials.





Here is the thread starters post! Look at what this guy was told by his fellow co-workers!! If all the things some of you say are true, why was he mis-informed like this, Maybe PA. just has a very arrogant, ignorant batch of CA`s & this is where my opinions (rants as some say) come from!!

hopefully other areas dont have this type of bunk going on!! It really does leave one with a bad impression!!

LXT..........


----------



## treeseer

We interrupt this rant for a 4th time to clarify a misimpression. 3 years' experience in tree work is required; it need not be under, over or next to a CA.

lxt, posting pictures is as easy as pie. Let's talk about how to cable that ash. 

This thread is dead.

:deadhorse:


----------



## lxt

treeseer said:


> We interrupt this rant for a 4th time to clarify a misimpression. 3 years' experience in tree work is required; it need not be under, over or next to a CA.
> 
> lxt, posting pictures is as easy as pie. Let's talk about how to cable that ash.
> 
> This thread is dead.
> 
> :deadhorse:





your opening remark is absolute BS, there are CA`s in my area that have no Exp. in tree work nor do they have any College!! cause they *Lied* do to the fact ISA doesnt/ did`nt check backgrounds they Now hold that Cert., real upstanding uhh? Im sure this is a common practice elsewhere to!!

Wonder how lawn service personnel become CA`s? 


what would you like to know about cabling that Ash?....First I will do a hazard check from the ground....next( r u with me?) I will put on my PPE, heres the big one now.....I will then put on *climbing gear* for purposes of ascending the tree(something some CA`s cant do!) LOL.

NEXT:
I will ascend the tree for inspection & to get measurements as I have always done this prior to the installation, once I have the diameter of the limbs, approx length of the limbs(which I use a f.glass rod & string to reach areas unsafe to climb to obtain a precise measurement)unless I have access with my bucket!, I will also take into account the width of the crown, on top of all this & before entering the tree I inspect the root sys. & its surroundings as best I can!!

once I obtain this information & feel that the tree is a good candidate I then put together my materials list!!

So untill I do this, what you have before you is my procedure before the Install, Ill also have you know that If I have any doubts on something or just want assurance(2nd opinion) I have a friend of mine whom works for the Penn. State University arborculture division (beaver campus) stop out & take a look!!!

I have actually called on him several times....very nice guy!! & he`s always informative & gives the pros & cons pertaining to whatever the situation involves.

when Im ready for the install Treeseer Ill give you step by step details of how I did it!!

LXT.............


----------



## lxt

lxt said:


> First off the Ash tree was really not that big a challenge, Basic job tasks that I do every day (except for the support sys.), I do beleive I asked for suggestions on the support Sys, The biggest obstacle was the Arborist.
> LXT...........






Maybe I should have done what the CA wanted me to do  take 1/2 the tree away, but NOoooo I fight to save it & even ask for suggestions on non-invasive procedures, I dont cable & brace every day!!! but have done my fair share, 35 this year!!!

seer, to think a CA like yourself would want to talk about support sys. with a ranting maniac like me.



LXT.......


----------



## oldirty

lxt said:


> *There is no greater Authority up there(in the tree) than the person up there(in the tree)* & as one on here stated!! *I would never ask my men to do something that I wouldnt do*!!
> 
> 
> LXT...........



so very right man.

i dont really know how one can say they are an arborist if they are not in on the daily grind of tree work. if you ride a desk that should be on your on title. i think there should be a different recognition for those that climb. something that would carry greater respect than just a certification


----------



## Job Corps Tree

*Becoming an Arborist*

This is true. If a Manager is not climbing ,They should have a new Handel. I have been doing tree work for 27 Years and I am a Climbing Arborist. But I do Not Climb all the time and my job ( Lead Instructor)says I don't climb as much.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> so very right man.
> 
> i dont really know how one can say they are an arborist if they are not in on the daily grind of tree work. if you ride a desk that should be on your on title. i think there should be a different recognition for those that climb. something that would carry greater respect than just a certification



That's not as hard as it seems.

First, what if someone has a college degree? Any college degree. Does that mean they are good or deserve respect? So how do you get something that carries extra respect? Probably self-respect.

But the solution are the letters, testimonials and thank-you notes. I store mine online:

Testimonials, Letters and Thank-you

Not many people ask to see them, like not many people ask to see my certification - but that's a real way of getting extra self-respect from the outside world. But it doesn't have to be written either.

Really, if we are doing the work the right way, what good would extra respect do beyond a Certified Arborist certification.

For me, it's sufficient to know that I'm doing the job right, even if the work is in isolation where nobody can see it. Basically, pride in our own work can supercede consideration of respect.


----------



## lxt

Anyone worth their own salt gets thank you letters, commendations & such, I have several from my church, neighbors, customers & even one from Baltimore Gas & Electric which was posted in Lewis tree`s cutting edge newsletter.

I think oldirty & I cant speak for em was implying that a *climbing arborist* should be recognized for that ability & thus not lumped into the same category as those Non-climbing, office type job Arborists!!!

this way the General public & the Commercial field can distiguish whos best for the job!! 

case in point: One company here had their Secretary(young, fresh outta college) take the exam so they could get State Contracts, now she has worked there for a couple years, takes refresher college courses but not in tree care!! I guess this qualifies as exp. in tree work? she`s book smart & had the time for the test!! I guess she deserves to have the CA title & be considered an equal to the 20yr+ climber with Cert.?

C`mon even you diehard beleivin ya dont have to climb to be certified guys cant think this is right!!! she might be your boss someday(honestly I wouldnt mind)........but seriously!!

LXT...........


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> That's not as hard as it seems.
> 
> First, what if someone has a college degree? Any college degree. Does that mean they are good or deserve respect? So how do you get something that carries extra respect? Probably self-respect.
> 
> But the solution are the letters, testimonials and thank-you notes. I store mine online:
> 
> Testimonials, Letters and Thank-you
> 
> Not many people ask to see them, like not many people ask to see my certification - but that's a real way of getting extra self-respect from the outside world. But it doesn't have to be written either.
> 
> Really, if we are doing the work the right way, what good would extra respect do beyond a Certified Arborist certification.
> 
> For me, it's sufficient to know that I'm doing the job right, even if the work is in isolation where nobody can see it. Basically, pride in our own work can supercede consideration of respect.




what i meant by my post is this.

2 guys meet and start talking one says "what do you do"? the other says "i'm an arborist". 

first guy says "oh really? thats cool. do you climb into the tree to see what is really going on"?

second guy says "no.... but i took a test and it says i am an arborist. certified even."

first guy says "well if you are not hands on with the tree how can you be an arborist?"

second guy says "that test i took. it says i am".


"oohhhh" says the first guy. "must be easy if you dont have to work... whens the next test"?


----------



## lxt

oldirty said:


> what i meant by my post is this.
> 
> 2 guys meet and start talking one says "what do you do"? the other says "i'm an arborist".
> 
> first guy says "oh really? thats cool. do you climb into the tree to see what is really going on"?
> 
> second guy says "no.... but i took a test and it says i am an arborist. certified even."
> 
> first guy says "well if you are not hands on with the tree how can you be an arborist?"
> 
> second guy says "that test i took. it says i am".
> 
> 
> "oohhhh" says the first guy. "must be easy if you dont have to work... whens the next test"?



 

LXT.............


----------



## Job Corps Tree

*Becoming an Arborist*

All comes back to the Ground Bound Arborist and the Climbing Arborist. We do need both and we have both .But I never try to tell a climber how to 
(except our students), I know I never liked anyone on the ground telling me how to. We get this with the US Forest Service guy's that have an CA and have never climbed they watch our class rig out any large tree next to their Trailer or shop and just try to guess where we learned to do that. My first partner called it (Motion Psychics). I do miss doing this all the time!!!


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> what i meant by my post is this.
> 
> 2 guys meet and start talking one says "what do you do"? the other says "i'm an arborist".
> 
> first guy says "oh really? thats cool. do you climb into the tree to see what is really going on"?
> 
> second guy says "no.... but i took a test and it says i am an arborist. certified even."
> 
> first guy says "well if you are not hands on with the tree how can you be an arborist?"
> 
> second guy says "that test i took. it says i am".
> 
> 
> "oohhhh" says the first guy. "must be easy if you dont have to work... whens the next test"?



Yeah...

Well there were these three guys over here chatting one day...

... A climbing certified arborist

... A non-climbing certified arborist

... A homeowner

In discussion, the climbing Certified Arborist claims that with his climbing knowledge, he's super-charged and 10 times smarter than the non-climber.

The non-climbing arborist shrewdly points out that his own Master's degree in arboriculture make him 5 times smarter than the climber.

Soon after, the homeowner asks a marvelous question of both arborists: "Gentlemen, either way, doesn't 10 x nothing = nothing?

Immediately, both arborists realized the homeowners wisdom, and that the whole time, they were equals.


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Well there were these three guys over here chatting one day...
> 
> ... A climbing certified arborist
> 
> ... A non-climbing certified arborist
> 
> ... A homeowner
> 
> In discussion, the climbing Certified Arborist claims that with his climbing knowledge, he's super-charged and 10 times smarter than the non-climber.
> 
> The non-climbing arborist shrewdly points out that his own Master's degree in arboriculture make him 5 times smarter than the climber.
> 
> Soon after, the homeowner asks a marvelous question of both arborists: "Gentlemen, either way, doesn't 10 x nothing = nothing?
> 
> Immediately, both arborists realized the homeowners wisdom, and that the whole time, they were equals.



are you really an astronaut if youve never been in space?


----------



## oldirty

and yes LXT you did get what i was saying.

you are not going to get a real strong backing in this arguement you got going on in this thread because there are not enough working arborists on this site to really agree with you.

its semantics really this arborist arguement but there definitely should be a way to distinguish the difference between a working arbo and a non working arbo.

anyway you got these 2 who are out in the elements with you agreeing with you.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> are you really an astronaut if youve never been in space?



It doesn't really matter. That's for the astronauts to figure out.

As far as arborists, an experienced arborist is an experienced arborist, and that's based on hands-on tree care and knowledge. Gear and size of tree is not relevant to determining what they are. Now if there are "certified arborists" who have minimal experiences, certainly they will be less adept than the CA with 20 years constant hands-on. But even the entry level CAs have 3 years. And I'll skip including the odds and ends for the moment who may have borderline tree care 3 years.

On another note, if a climber comes down to work on the smaller trees, odds are I can prune circles around that person.

One CA - a very experienced climber - who worked in Georgia for a long time, and in Oregon for a long time, as arborist, climber and business owner, said that my pruning work is the best he had ever seen.

Basically, you blow it out of proportion. I've got over a dozen trees on my own property including 200 year oaks, Douglas fir, madrone, ponderosa pine. And I can look out my window right now and see most of what they need.

And I can go into town tomorrow and get a lift or climbing gear and do to my big trees what I do to my small trees, but within the confines of what age and condition allows.

I can see a few codominant unions, even from the ground I can tell from the bark what's alive and what's not. Dead stubs stick out like a sore thumb, and 20% of the canopy is equally as easy to judge from the ground as it is from above.

In addition, I know how to avoid damaging the bark with ropes and gear, what time of year the bark is more likely to slip-loose.

My plan may change once up in the tree, but where the ropes will be placed is already fairly obvious.

So you need to put your foolishness to rest.

I'm not going to tell you or other skilled climbers how to use your gear, but it will be a cold day in hell if you climbing makes you more capable to handle tree care. Because although I may not accomplish the task identically in equipment terms, I can meet or or exceed the quality of finished product.

Been there - done that.

The reason I was looking at my trees today, is I was out in the rainstorm taking some Madrone photos for Ekka's website. And glancing at our large trees and noticing a few needs in them, comments like yours came to mind and I amusingly chuckled. Especially since most arborists I know, don't usually climb to give an estimate, but they can see most issues from below. And anything that can be hidden up in a canopy, has occured at head level as well. Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level. Even with big trees, the same issues can occur down low.

What makes a good arborist, is being an experienced arborist.

Because if you need climbing gear in big trees to be a good arborist, obviously one might need an orchard ladder and boots for small trees to be a good arborist. See, if you want to be logical, you have to expand your logic to all aspects and all sizes, as closely as possible. And your form of logic is not logical enough to handle the full scope of arboriculture.


----------



## ropensaddle

Having spent most of my adult life in canopy I understand
feeling being conveyed here,however I do believe there are
non climbing arborists that contribute greatly to phc.
Those persons holding masters in horticulture or equivalent
I can learn from. I have no problem with a person with more
knowledge advising me in consultation especially in consults
which allow my input! I have been proved wrong in many 
instances and learned a great deal from this interaction.
The bottom line in my humble opinion, should be phc for
the customer! I feel it can be performed by professional
relationships with climbing and non climbing arborists.
I also feel I could be employed by one, if it was a professional
cooperation and not feel threatened. I have learned most
of what I know about biology,physiology,soil management etc.
by the writings of these individuals. I would not however
be a candidate that could work under a ca with less knowledge
than I. We all work for someone and if the reward ether
in $ or satisfaction of surroundings is adequate and suits
your individual growth and supports phc what is the problem?


----------



## lxt

TreeCo said:


> Right!
> 
> The ISA is just loaded up with CA that have their masters degree in arboriculture. Not!
> 
> The sad fact is most have very little experience......sometimes as little as just working at Home Depot in the garden center! Sometimes no experience at all.
> 
> I've had my CA for 17 or 18 years now and have been a climber for 23 years.
> 
> My opinion is that the isa has been very successful marketing the CA designation...and now has moved into 3, 4, or 5 other designations....and that my CA is really worth very little today.





Now here is a CA I respect, M.D you could take a lesson from TreeCo.!!
Not just because he climbs or is a CA, but because he as well as some Climbing CA`s I know feel what they have worked(climbed) & studied for has been diluted by the other designations & honestly people like you!!

LXT..........


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> It doesn't really matter. That's for the astronauts to figure out.
> 
> As far as arborists, an experienced arborist is an experienced arborist, and that's based on hands-on tree care and knowledge. Gear and size of tree is not relevant to determining what they are. Now if there are "certified arborists" who have minimal experiences, certainly they will be less adept than the CA with 20 years constant hands-on. But even the entry level CAs have 3 years. And I'll skip including the odds and ends for the moment who may have borderline tree care 3 years.
> 
> On another note, if a climber comes down to work on the smaller trees, odds are I can prune circles around that person.
> 
> One CA - a very experienced climber - who worked in Georgia for a long time, and in Oregon for a long time, as arborist, climber and business owner, said that my pruning work is the best he had ever seen.
> 
> Basically, you blow it out of proportion. I've got over a dozen trees on my own property including 200 year oaks, Douglas fir, madrone, ponderosa pine. And I can look out my window right now and see most of what they need.
> 
> And I can go into town tomorrow and get a lift or climbing gear and do to my big trees what I do to my small trees, but within the confines of what age and condition allows.
> 
> I can see a few codominant unions, even from the ground I can tell from the bark what's alive and what's not. Dead stubs stick out like a sore thumb, and 20% of the canopy is equally as easy to judge from the ground as it is from above.
> 
> In addition, I know how to avoid damaging the bark with ropes and gear, what time of year the bark is more likely to slip-loose.
> 
> My plan may change once up in the tree, but where the ropes will be placed is already fairly obvious.
> 
> So you need to put your foolishness to rest.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you or other skilled climbers how to use your gear, but it will be a cold day in hell if you climbing makes you more capable to handle tree care. Because although I may not accomplish the task identically in equipment terms, I can meet or or exceed the quality of finished product.
> 
> Been there - done that.
> 
> The reason I was looking at my trees today, is I was out in the rainstorm taking some Madrone photos for Ekka's website. And glancing at our large trees and noticing a few needs in them, comments like yours came to mind and I amusingly chuckled. Especially since most arborists I know, don't usually climb to give an estimate, but they can see most issues from below. And anything that can be hidden up in a canopy, has occured at head level as well. Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level. Even with big trees, the same issues can occur down low.
> 
> What makes a good arborist, is being an experienced arborist.
> 
> Because if you need climbing gear in big trees to be a good arborist, obviously one might need an orchard ladder and boots for small trees to be a good arborist. See, if you want to be logical, you have to expand your logic to all aspects and all sizes, as closely as possible. And your form of logic is not logical enough to handle the full scope of arboriculture.




You are funny!! you use analogies to describe...thats ok! but when someone else does "astronaut" then it will be figured out by another means Uhh?

some CA`s dont have 3yrs, secretaries, home Depot lawn & garden employees to name a few, this has been explained!!...you just choose to ignore it!! I would too if I were you!

come down to prune smaller trees!! whats the difference? other than size & specie, the technique for the most part is the same!! orchard ladder, around here you wouldnt make a dime my man......cause all the grass cutters do those trees........I get stuck with the big & the ugly!!

A cold day in hell, LOL..........again go to the employment section they need lots of orchard ladder trimmers over there. Put it like this climbing is the meat & potatoes of the industry!! like it or not....without us who have the ability to climb you Non-climbing CA`s would look funny explaining to the Home owner, yes maam that limb looks bad, possibly broke over in the storm, Can you fix? well no maam..........I can tell this from the ground cause Im a CA, I cant climb!!

whats equipment terms? were talking climbing skill M.D...you think you can out prune me in a small tree? tell ya what come up to PA we`ll go do the 80-90ft sugar maple that had severe failure in a storm, then were going to go do a small N. maple prune.....cause I wanna see you meet or exceed!!

your posts show the work of what grass cutters & roofers do in my area so not being cruel but it dont impress me!! I dont need pic`s Ill extend the offer & show you in person, Ill even rent you a room in the hotel of your choice!!

Ill be logical, Ill prove Im worth my salt & in the end Ill see if your alligator mouth, dillusional thought process & skill are what you say!!

It will be a *cold day in hell when a non-climbing CA will out prune me* 

come get some!! bring your camera too I want all arboristsite to see!!

LXT...............


----------



## clearance

treeseer said:


> We interrupt this rant for a 4th time to clarify a misimpression. 3 years' experience in tree work is required; it need not be under, over or next to a CA.
> 
> lxt, posting pictures is as easy as pie. Let's talk about how to cable that ash.
> 
> This thread is dead.
> 
> :deadhorse:



It is not a rant, it is a discussion, me and the other tree men are explaining the truth, along with our opinions. You are a true "true believer", immune to us, except your concurance with my idea that non working arborists should get off thier lazy azz and plant a few trees every day. 

Now you say it takes three years of experience in treework to become an arborist. "Treework", sorry buddy, thats a little vague. Driving around in a city pickup, looking at trees, getting coffee, lying to residents about trees, that ain't work, its making puppies.

Running a saw, chipping brush, climbing trees, etc, now thats work. The city arborists I have dealt with wouldn't last a day doing treework, you can tell just by looking at them, never done a hard days work in thier life, couldn't even start a saw without decomp. The kind of people that would have starved to death in the pioneer days, culls, most of 'em.


----------



## treeseer

"In discussion, the climbing Certified Arborist claims that with his climbing knowledge, he's super-charged and 10 times smarter than the non-climber.

The non-climbing arborist shrewdly points out that his own Master's degree in arboriculture make him 5 times smarter than the climber.

Soon after, the homeowner asks a marvelous question of both arborists: "Gentlemen, either way, doesn't 10 x nothing = nothing?

Immediately, both arborists realized the homeowners wisdom, and that the whole time, they were equals. "

Zen client stills the futile furor. Wish it were that easy in real life. 

"Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level."

Mario,if you'd ever been 80' in a tree, you'd not say this. Cankers, lightning hits, cracks and hollows can all be up there but not perceptible down low.

The sample report in the back of the ASCA writing guide involves some lazy assessment of aerial conditions, because the consultant did not climb. Poor work; the client pays to know about the whole tree, so aerial inspection is often vital.

The original poster asked about arborist certification, then it got derailed. Most of the last few pages have been about this certification's skill set:

ISA CERTIFIED TREE WORKER/CLIMBER SPECIALIST
ELIGIBILITY
Applicants must have 18 months of climbing experience. The
candidate must also show valid proof of training in aerial rescue, CPR,
and First Aid.
EXPERIENCE
Practical experience helpful in preparing for the knowledge and skills
exam will include full-time professional work which requires the
regular practical use of knowledge involved in climbing safety, tree
removal, rigging, pruning, cabling, climbing/knots, tree sciences, and
tree identification.
MEMBERSHIP
ISA Membership is not required to become an ISA Certified Tree
Worker, although members pay a discounted fee for exam registration,
recertification, study guide, and purchase of other educational
materials.
FEES
Examination
Members (ISA and Chapter)
= U.S. $ 100.00
Non-member
= U.S. $ 150.00
Retake
= U.S. $ 65.00
Recertification
Member
= U.S. $ 45.00
Non-member
= U.S. $ 60.00
EXAMINATION
Structure - The exam is made up of two parts, a 50- question, multiple-choice knowledge exam and a
skills exam. The individual must pass both to obtain the certification credential. The domains or subjects
covered are:
I.
Safety
14%
II.
Removal
14%
III.
Rigging
14%
IV.
Pruning
20%
V.
Cabling
6%
VI.
Climbing/Knots
14%
VII. Tree Sciences
8%
VIII. Tree Identification
10%
STUDY MATERIALS
Tree Climbers’ Guide, The Certified Tree Worker Climbing Skills Test- Application Preparation video,
ANSI Z133.1, ANSI A300, Basic Training for Tree Climbers video set, and the Tree Climbers’
Companion.

Dan how do you know how little your CA is worth? When you post it, as you do in your sig, it is seen by eyes other than yours. One thing is for sure; you'd never have gotten the Barlow job without it.


----------



## oldirty

takes about a decade to be considered a tradesman doesnt it? whats this 3 yr mark all about?

and your right clearance. for me to pass judgement about what it is you do i only need to shake your hand and look at them. 

you can learn almost all you need in those 2 easy steps.


hey seer if this thread is dead at least it was a good one.


----------



## lxt

Treeseer, good post! I beleive you atleast pride your self in all facets of tree care!! seemingly a rare thing amongst some!

Be safe, Take care

LXT......


----------



## M.D. Vaden

treeseer said:


> Mario,if you'd ever been 80' in a tree, you'd not say this. Cankers, lightning hits, cracks and hollows can all be up there but not perceptible down low.



Did you pay attention to what I said? It doesn't sound like it. Sometimes I wish you could be as good at reading a reply as you are at lecturing and posting facts. You greatly amuse me sometimes. I remember one time on TB, where finally other arborists kept trying to tell you that you didn't read exactly what I wrote or somehow missed the obvious intent. I mean, I'm sure you don't intend to do that, but sometimes you do it so long, I practically slap my forehead in at this end. You are a funny guy Treeseer.  

Sometimes I make a typo or two, but generally, I'm fairly exact at describing - hope so anyway. At least others say they read it the way I meant.

I basically said that anything that can happen above, can happen below. I'm even surprised that you wrote that response to me. That's just common trade knowledge. Of course some of those things can't be seen from the ground. Still doesn't erase that fact though that most estimates given - at least in Oregon - are done from ground level. Only a small percentage end up with a climber going up first.

And again, what occurs above, can occur below.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> You are funny!! you use analogies to describe...thats ok! but when someone else does "astronaut" then it will be figured out by another means Uhh?
> 
> some CA`s dont have 3yrs, secretaries, home Depot lawn & garden employees to name a few, this has been explained!!...you just choose to ignore it!! I would too if I were you!



Now there you go again...

I already covered it in the next sentence, and you couldn't figure it out?

Is it right that I should need to take you back to the next sentence of mine and requote myself?



> But even the entry level CAs have 3 years. And I'll skip including the odds and ends for the moment who may have borderline tree care 3 years.



What's with you guys.

Even in the past couple of weeks I mentioned a local Landscape Architect who took the test and got his certification as a CA.

Now if we ever get to that pruning contest, I'm not going to let you escape by trying to get 100 feet up so nobody can see you loose buddy. We're going to start with tree planting first. Then we're going to do Bonsai second. Next, maybe we can do 1 or 2 miles of small street trees carrying our gear as we go. Then big fruit trees. Then we can start advancing bigger and bigger. From Roots to Shoots. That way the contest may end before it even leaves the ground. 

And of course my photos don't have anything massive. I got my first digital camera only a month or so before I sold my 385 XP and other stuff, right at the point where I really bailed-out on big tree stuff. Just decided to take a turn in business. No more climbing gear for this kid.

Actually, I think the big reason for the switch, was I realized I just wasn't put-together very well physically to tackle it for very long. So it made sense to just turn the big stuff over to guys with the knack and the knowledge, and get myself established in a niche that I would not ever need to retire out of (and still be able to work in the field).

Really now, I respect you guys.

I can't climb near as well as most of you folks. It would take me light years to get half as good.

LOL


----------



## M.D. Vaden

TreeCo said:


> Right!
> 
> The ISA is just loaded up with CA that have their masters degree in arboriculture. Not!
> 
> The sad fact is most have very little experience......sometimes as little as just working at Home Depot in the garden center! Sometimes no experience at all.
> 
> I've had my CA for 17 or 18 years now and have been a climber for 23 years.
> 
> My opinion is that the isa has been very successful marketing the CA designation...and now has moved into 3, 4, or 5 other designations....and that my CA is really worth very little today.



Now, I'm sure you knew it was humor.

If you didn't, get a beer and chill  

So.... I can't share very much more detail than this very short description, so I don't disclose an identity or embarrass an institution.

Years, and years and years ago, while working at a university campus, a person with a very responsible position in the horticulture profession, and with a Masters degree, was temporarily working with us. To get some experience.

This person did not know how to use a shovel. So that was the first thing we taught them. There is a right way and a wrong way to use a shovel and say, move a small plant. But this person almost didn't know how to dig.

I wish I could share more, but I just can't.

So I understand exactly what you mean.


----------



## treeseer

M.D. Vaden said:


> most estimates given - at least in Oregon - are done from ground level.


 But inspections often require climbing, as does an important part of the work.

Here's a chart with the different work descriptions an arborist can have. You can see climbing is in there, as are MANY other arborist jobs.

http://www.isa-arbor.com/careersInArboriculture/flowchrt.aspx

***

While pruning an 80' oak with a HUGE cracking hollow in the middle, I took some pictures for the client, who was also my groundie. Could I have handled the tree without book learning? No way.

It took him a long time to get over the fact that I could get up there in the first place. But after a while he got over it, and we looked at how his very hazardous and very valuable tree was to be managed.

Climbing is an essential part of tree care. It takes special skills and special people to do it well. But it takes many other arborists to care for trees, too.


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> Now if we ever get to that pruning contest, I'm not going to let you escape by trying to get 100 feet up so nobody can see you loose buddy. We're going to start with tree planting first. Then we're going to do Bonsai second. Next, maybe we can do 1 or 2 miles of small street trees carrying our gear as we go.




now i know this is all related to tree's mario. but this paragraph right here, the one i am quoting, sounds like landscaping to me pal. and from the work pics you sent in, you do good landscaping work. thats my take at least. i didnt see any pics that were what i would consider "tree work".


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> Now there you go again...
> 
> I already covered it in the next sentence, and you couldn't figure it out?
> 
> Is it right that I should need to take you back to the next sentence of mine and requote myself?
> 
> 
> 
> What's with you guys.
> 
> Even in the past couple of weeks I mentioned a local Landscape Architect who took the test and got his certification as a CA.
> 
> Now if we ever get to that pruning contest, I'm not going to let you escape by trying to get 100 feet up so nobody can see you loose buddy. We're going to start with tree planting first. Then we're going to do Bonsai second. Next, maybe we can do 1 or 2 miles of small street trees carrying our gear as we go. Then big fruit trees. Then we can start advancing bigger and bigger. From Roots to Shoots. That way the contest may end before it even leaves the ground.
> 
> And of course my photos don't have anything massive. I got my first digital camera only a month or so before I sold my 385 XP and other stuff, right at the point where I really bailed-out on big tree stuff. Just decided to take a turn in business. No more climbing gear for this kid.
> 
> Actually, I think the big reason for the switch, was I realized I just wasn't put-together very well physically to tackle it for very long. So it made sense to just turn the big stuff over to guys with the knack and the knowledge, and get myself established in a niche that I would not ever need to retire out of (and still be able to work in the field).
> 
> Really now, I respect you guys.
> 
> I can't climb near as well as most of you folks. It would take me light years to get half as good.
> 
> LOL



LOL. you are funny!! you dont have to take me any where, CA`s dont need 3yrs in tree work is what were saying & we have proved many dont meet that requirement!! are you with us mentally as well physically? 

the pruning contest!!!! come on up!! I said ill foot the bill, ya see we do *tree work* up in these parts!! & Ill show you that the Grass cutters do what you do!! so lets pass over what anyone can do! & get to the meat & potatoes there CA!! Ill let you warm up in a 40-50footer first before we move on to some bigger stuff, All you gots to do is PM me let me know when would be a good time this summer & Ill get you here & pay your wages, room & board!

Now your last paragraph somes it up!! Nice retreat!! but none the less you have made some pretty brash comments & I for one would like you to put your azz where you mouth can take you.

You mention respecting us, but the whole while you have down played our ability`s, skill, etc... Dont give me this false Internet respect, Come up here & I will show you why to give respect, not just because I climb but because my fixation, desire, knowledge & other abilities are just as good as any CA out there...........I am still learning & will continue to do so!!

*Whenever you want to come up M.D, I cant wait!!*

LXT.................


----------



## treeseer

lxt said:


> my fixation, desire, knowledge & other abilities are just as good as any CA out there....



Well, you got the fixation part down pat, gotta give you that.

 

Let us know when you're ready to show your stuff and cable that ash.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> *Whenever you want to come up M.D, I cant wait!!*
> 
> LXT.................



Here's one way to think about it...

This flowering cherry tree (image) - same as posted earlier - is after a once per year pruning - a removal of about 20% to 25% for thinning including preserving the living room to valley view over it's top. So "crown-reduced" is part of the yearly ordeal too. It's fairly shaggy beforehand.

It's pruning need is not as severe as a crown-reduced apple tree of this size would be.

The tree is almost exacty 50' across from this angle, and 45' across the other way (my son is the speck in the middle) after pruning, being reduced from about 56' x 48'. It's been raised on this limb viewing side, with more cascade behind, a concept borrowed from Bonsai / Jap. pruning: which makes it seem smaller front-to-back, in the image.

Ignoring clean-up, if you can prune something like this in less than 40 to 50 minutes, then you've got me beat already and can spare me additional embarrassment in the big trees.

My guess is you've done enough similar to this to "ball-park" a guesstimate.






Also...

*Treeseer.... that's a really cool photo taken from that tree. Almost postcard looking !!*

And...



oldirty said:


> now i know this is all related to tree's mario. but this paragraph right here, the one i am quoting, sounds like landscaping to me pal. and from the work pics you sent in, you do good landscaping work. thats my take at least. i didnt see any pics that were what i would consider "tree work".



*If it's a tree and it's done right, it's tree work and it's arboriculture. If a professional views proper tree care of all sizes of trees to be tree care, that's when I recognize the person as an arborist.

Arboriculture is a sapling to heritage tree & cradle to grave, kind of tree care profession.*


----------



## bigshea13

"Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level."

,if you'd ever been 80' in a tree, you'd not say this. Cankers, lightning hits, cracks and hollows can all be up there but not perceptible down low.


----------



## bigshea13

on the other hand.........



Actually, I think the big reason for the switch, was I realized I just wasn't put-together very well physically to tackle it for very long. So it made sense to just turn the big stuff over to guys with the knack and the knowledge, and get myself established in a niche that I would not ever need to retire out of (and still be able to work in the field).

 work smart not hard.


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> *If it's a tree and it's done right, it's tree work and it's arboriculture. If a professional views proper tree care of all sizes of trees to be tree care, that's when I recognize the person as an arborist.
> 
> .*



best part of this statement is that your opinion doesnt really matter. my opinion of your work is that you are a glorified landscaper looking for pats on the back by being a certified arborist.

your landscape work is good. be proud of it. but just because the highest you go up in a tree is on an orchard ladder doesnt make you a tree guy. 

of all the pics you have sent in, and this is my opinion as well, none of them really show me your a tree guy. and then the statement you make of being able to fully diagnose a tree without even getting in the thing just , to me, verifies your "landscaperness".

handsnips dont make a treeguy.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

TreeCo said:


> I think you have misunderstood what Treeseer is saying.
> 
> He's saying trees have the same kind of problems at all heights......he's not saying he sees all of the problem from the ground. He has been 80ft. in trees many, many times.



You still must have missed one of my posts.

I know what he wrote.

His reply would only make sense to be directed at me, if I had written that all problems above, could be seen from below.

But what I wrote even earlier - before Treeseer wrote that - was that basically any problem above, can be found below (not "seen from" below).

As I said, I've been at this as much as most of you. May not have climbed in a long time, but I still handle the ground work for climbing CAs. So I may not be as stupid as some of you folks might think.

I mean, think about it. You are the second person telling me that we can't see every defect existing up high, from down on the ground. Do you want to tell me that a Silky Zubat has a handle and a blade? That Felco 2 has a spring? That chippers can have sharp parts inside?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> best part of this statement is that your opinion doesnt really matter. my opinion of your work is that you are a glorified landscaper looking for pats on the back by being a certified arborist.
> 
> your landscape work is good. be proud of it. but just because the highest you go up in a tree is on an orchard ladder doesnt make you a tree guy.
> 
> of all the pics you have sent in, and this is my opinion as well, none of them really show me your a tree guy. and then the statement you make of being able to fully diagnose a tree without even getting in the thing just , to me, verifies your "landscaperness".
> 
> handsnips dont make a treeguy.



*My opinion is a broad skills opinion.

If someone thinks that climbing makes one an arborist, then that attitude is basically the same as a lot of "landscapers" I've met.

Because a lot of landscapers DON'T put much weight on small and medium size trees as being "arboriculture" and "tree work", therefore, they damage arboriculture with that attitude.

So in reality, a tree climber that does not view all sizes of trees as "tree work" and "arboriculture" has an even worse attitude than a landscaper who possesses a bad attitude about tree care.

Because arborists should be setting the example, and when their attidude sets the example that smaller stuff is not tree care, they basically encourage landscapers and homeowners to not take tree care seriously.

That attitude is both subtle, and damaging.

It's often said that the effectiveness or "value" of a counterfiet is its closeness to the original. And the attitude that only big tree care is "tree work" is a fine piece of counterfiet, where the "fake bills" (statements) are passed and given.

So a tree climber can be in a position to do expert tree work, but simultaneously undermine arboriculture.*


----------



## BostonBull

oldirty said:


> handsnips dont make a treeguy.



I agree......

Tree guy or not I still want an Arborist (i.e. a person who works with trees daily, and NOT lawns) to work on my small orchard, or even my 25 years old Lace-Leaf Jap Maple, or the beautiful 14" Kousa Dogwood at the corner of my house............would you trust a landscRaper to take the pruning shears/hedge trimmer to one of these?

Hand snips don't make a tree guy, but in my eyes an Arborist should be able to use them, fluently. And also be able to plant, maintain, remedy etc etc. Like was said above a Tree Guy/Arborist should be able to work from the roots to shoots.


And I also am quite surprised that none of you would even dare argue with my Alex Shigo reply. He was *THE* reason we are where we are in this industry. And he wasn't a climber. He did NOT pass his exams by HONORARY merits. I bet that would make him roll in his grave. He passed his tests, and retests including HIS MCA wayyyyyy back when! 

This thread is truly going nowhere but bashing the select few who choose to stay in it this long. We should stop the mud throwing and get along.

If you guys don't like the terms that are currently used to describe what an Arborists is, and you thin that a non climbing Arborist is something else. Get off AS and DO something about it. Write to the ISA, MAA, TCIA etc etc and tell them its wrong and that our industry is growing. Tell them you feel there needs to be changes made. 

Do it! Stop whining! I triple dog dare you! make a change!


----------



## lxt

BostonBull said:


> I agree......
> 
> Tree guy or not I still want an Arborist (i.e. a person who works with trees daily, and NOT lawns) to work on my small orchard, or even my 25 years old Lace-Leaf Jap Maple, or the beautiful 14" Kousa Dogwood at the corner of my house............would you trust a landscRaper to take the pruning shears/hedge trimmer to one of these?
> 
> Hand snips don't make a tree guy, but in my eyes an Arborist should be able to use them, fluently. And also be able to plant, maintain, remedy etc etc. Like was said above a Tree Guy/Arborist should be able to work from the roots to shoots.
> 
> 
> And I also am quite surprised that none of you would even dare argue with my Alex Shigo reply. He was *THE* reason we are where we are in this industry. And he wasn't a climber. He did NOT pass his exams by HONORARY merits. I bet that would make him roll in his grave. He passed his tests, and retests including HIS MCA wayyyyyy back when!
> 
> This thread is truly going nowhere but bashing the select few who choose to stay in it this long. We should stop the mud throwing and get along.
> 
> If you guys don't like the terms that are currently used to describe what an Arborists is, and you thin that a non climbing Arborist is something else. Get off AS and DO something about it. Write to the ISA, MAA, TCIA etc etc and tell them its wrong and that our industry is growing. Tell them you feel there needs to be changes made.
> 
> Do it! Stop whining! I triple dog dare you! make a change!





Alex shigo was...... Dr. Shigo correct? a whole different level & way different than what we are taling about here!! he performed what his description suggests......If he could of climbed????? do you think he would of? & how do you know he didnt?

I have complained & written the ISA as well as some other entities regarding title designations & skills testing..........No answer!!!! not even a reply!!

LXT..........


----------



## lxt

BostonBull said:


> The ISA test IS a JOKE!!!! I will always say this until they change the format.
> 
> Multipl choice on ID section?





Is this the same guy that just posted? where do you stand Bostonbull?



LXT..........


----------



## lxt

BostonBull said:


> CA will hopefully one day be in the upper echelon of standardized training like some of these other fields. Then there will be no argument that we are needed. Right now everyone views the test, and organization as a money pit. And most CA as Good Ol Boys.





MMMmmmm still the same guy? you bust on the ISA & then wouldnt want anyone else to prune, repair or work on your tree`s?

Or is it that they have to be an MCA? just would like to know where your coming from. didnt you say;*I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do?*

LXT................


----------



## Mitchell

*somem thought sof the top of my flat head*

Imho, *a solution to the issue might be having the ISA arborist certification card change to reflect weather one has demonstrated the ability to climb and to what proficiency.* The certification title and look of the papers, and websites etc could emphasis the importance of the climbing aspect of this job. Perhaps a new job title completely. 

*All aspects of the job are ultimately equally important* however, to use an analogy. It take a lot of people and training to put a guy in the seat of fighter jet but some one still has to strap in on and drive it. It would be misleading to call every one from the wheel chock guy, the engineer through the pilot an airplane specialist. 

I would draw the line at no BCMA could be such without climbing experience. We still have loads of trees around here over 150’ tall. 

In my experience the best business bang for the buck and personal tree knowledge growth was made from doing my CA. I would recommend it to every one who wants to advance in the field of arboriculture

*The process is not perfect but better then the alternatives*. In my town it is common for the permit to require a CA do the work. Agree or disagree, that alone makes it a must have for a small tree business around here. Makes it harder for landscapers and such to “try out” tree work as well. It was also part of the reason my insurance rates were discounted. 

*Clearance, Lxt*; Nothing in the world will replace hard won experience but that is hard to quantify to the unknowing public. EVERY, and I mean every job, I have or had is moving steadily into paper qualifications trumping experience. We will pay the price for this but in the mean time I’m getting on board where I have to and when it makes sense. Sadly for you Clearance, city boys and girls with humanist BA’s are making the rules for you country folks to live by. They outnumber you massively, for you it’s the old “is the last sane person on earth still sane?”

*Boston*; I don’t think the CA exam is to easy so long as they keep the required recert points going. I better get going on mine argh… They should tighten up experience requirements; but that’s the nature of organizations every one likes to close the door behind them. That’s why I think it is better to redefine what an arborist is.

*Redlinit*; I agree you should be able to have the exam online with a proctor. UNBC would have worked well for you.


----------



## beastmaster

I can drive down any street here in so. Calif and see hat racked trees, lion tailed trees ,trees so thinned out they'll never be natural looking again, and so on. May-be if these butchers were CA's(I don't know their not) the little bit of common sense basics they would have to learn to pass the test would open up their eyes to care for trees more. I work for a great company. We do A1 work. My boss is a CA with over 30 years experience. It's not the ISA that made his business what it is, but his love of his work and dedication to high standards. The general public excepts The ISA CA as a standard in the Industry, so if you don't have it your viewed as (maybe) not as qualified. It's people(we've all ran across them) who use the cert. as a "I am a great and knowledgeable arborist", and don't really know nothing, and use it as a ticket to make unqualified judgments and decisions. Except it as it is, a min. standard to be meet before being aloud to do tree work, and Its a great tool.I know some great tree guys who will not get their CA's just out of spite. That OK too.


----------



## treeseer

beastmaster said:


> Accept it as it is, a min. standard to be meet before being aloud to do tree work, and Its a great tool.I know some great tree guys who will not get their CA's just out of spite. That OK too.



It may be OK, but they shoot themselves in the foot by refusing to take the test.

"I would draw the line at no BCMA could be such without climbing experience. We still have loads of trees around here over 150’ tall."

Mitchell, as a BCMA who climbs, this sounds good at first. Any CA or BCMA who can climb is better qualified than one who is not. The problem with requiring climbing is those who are physically challenged but have the knowledge. No easy matter to decide if and who to exempt.

If anyone wants to show the world they can climb, there is always the CTW.

ISA: "Arboriculture is both an art and a science – combining physical skills and modern technology to utilize scientifically based methods to care for trees.

Those looking to get into the industry might be wondering where to start. Those already in the industry might be asking, “Where do I go next? What are my career options?”

This resource provides anyone with an interest in arboriculture with multiple career path options in flow-chart form. Possible careers are listed and linked to other areas one can move into. For example, if someone were interested in obtaining an entry-level groundworker position, the flow chart would show him or her which advancement opportunities are available. While there can be variations in each path, this chart offers the most typical progressions.

Click here.to view the flowchart.

More information on the position can be obtained by clicking on the career title’s box. When chosen, the box links to another screen that provides a detailed job description, background needed to obtain the position, eligibility requirements, education/training needs, recommended or required certification and licenses, and the typical future career path. The new page also provides a photo of the profession and lists education and training materials for someone who holds the position.

Certification is an integral part of arboriculture, and this resource provides the user with information regarding the applicable certifications in the arboriculture profession. Information is provided concerning eligibility, test content, requirements, and test preparation resources.

If you are looking to start or continue a career in arboriculture, this resource provides an awareness of the field, a practical career outlook, and what education or experience you need to get where you want to be. If you are ready to enter the commercial/residential/utility tree care profession, check your local yellow pages for tree companies in your area. If you have never worked in the tree care industry and are looking to start your career in arboriculture here are a few things you should look for and questions you should ask employers:

* Look for companies that are members of ISA or TCIA, and look for companies that employ Certified Arborists.
* Ask employers to clearly define a career path for you. Who will train you? Ask to see a copy of their training program and how they document their employee training and job progression program. Who in the company is responsible for your career advancement?

If you wish to study arboriculture at the college level, check with universities or community colleges in your area to see what courses they offer in the subjects of urban forestry, landscape horticulture, plant pathology, or related subjects. Contact ISA (888-ISA-TREE) for a list of schools that are active in arboriculture education.

To search through a list of schools that are active in arboriculture education, please click here.


----------



## Mitchell

*climbing BCMA*



treeseer said:


> It may be OK, but they shoot themselves in the foot by refusing to take the test.
> 
> "I would draw the line at no BCMA could be such without climbing experience. We still have loads of trees around here over 150’ tall."
> 
> Mitchell, as a BCMA who climbs, this sounds good at first. Any CA or BCMA who can climb is better qualified than one who is not. The problem with requiring climbing is those who are physically challenged but have the knowledge. No easy matter to decide if and who to exempt.
> .



Agreed, Good post.
However discriminatory as it is, I just can not wrap my head around a "master arborist" not being able to do an integral part of tree care; going up and getting in them. I don't think it is asking a lot; climbing trees without stressful time constraints or removal demands is not a hard thing to do with all the MA devices/systems out there. 

Further, I believe after knowledge, climbing to be the fundamental aspect of tree care. I can not imagine trying to run my own arborist service with out climbing. I would be out of 80% of my work overnight. I theorize I could be lacking knowledge or ability in just about any other area and still be profitable. [I realize consulting arborists can do this, but there is only a couple who can rely on that relative to the number of climbing arborist.
cheers


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> ... I can not imagine trying to run my own arborist service with out climbing. I would be out of 80% of my work overnight. I theorize I could be lacking knowledge or ability in just about any other area and still be profitable. [I realize consulting arborists can do this, but there is only a couple who can rely on that relative to the number of climbing arborist.
> cheers



Our imaginations can parallel our experience.

When I was in college, one instructor who had been in business, told be that it was impossible to succeed in business by doing only small size pruning, and without doing lawn care maintenance.

His imagination was affected by his experience. In fact, he limited his imagination to his experience.

So in 1988, I started as a "pruning specialist" without doing any lawn maintenance, almost no landscaping and no big tree work. Just the one niche.

5 years later, I was glad to explain to the instructor how well business was going, and how it was available to succeed in what he said could not work.

Later I expanded into landscape design, after seeing the vast number of pitiful designs that many designers were doing. I figured since I spent years battling their messes by positioning plants wrong, I may as well do a few myself, but designed right.

A common problem for designers, is that they lack a knowledge of pruning and tree care, not knowing how that is relevant to where big plants can grow. Because there must be a pruning solution for every plant if it is to remain and develop.

The huge defect among many arborists, is a lack of comprehensive landscape knowledge. That's why it's a distraction to imagine that climbing makes an "arborist", when the more important issue is that at least half the climbing arborists have little comprehensive understanding about landscaping.

Trees are not what it's all about. Trees are components of landscaping in many cases, and fit in, just like a transmission fits into a car.

If a climber's ability is handicapped due to a lack of knowledge about the entirre landscape that the tree can affect, who cares about their gear and climbing ability.

Really, if a tree is isolated like at a downtown sidewalk, an arborist can be an arborist if they prune that one tree and understand it as an individual organism.

But take the same arborist, and if they prune trees in a big landscape lot full of shrubs, turf, flowers, drainage, etc., and if they don't understand the small plants, and can't READ the DESIGN of the yard, they are not an arborist anymore. They no longer are caring for the tree as part of the whole landscape to which it belongs.

In such a case, they are "cowboys" doing their own thing, but working out of their league, and not in harmony with all the professional aspects and components that may have been integrated into a property.


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> Alex shigo was...... Dr. Shigo correct? a whole different level & way different than what we are taling about here!! he performed what his description suggests......If he could of climbed????? do you think he would of? & how do you know he didnt?
> 
> I have complained & written the ISA as well as some other entities regarding title designations & skills testing..........No answer!!!! not even a reply!!
> 
> LXT..........



The man wasnt born a Dr.! So he wasnt an Arborist until he got his doctrate? Becausehe climbed limitedly, if at all?


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> Is this the same guy that just posted? where do you stand Bostonbull?
> 
> 
> 
> LXT..........



I NEVER stuttered! did you read my post or are you picking out what you want? The ISA TEST is a joke.


----------



## clearance

Thats fine M.D., and I agree, beautiful yards are rare, and they don't get that way without wisdom. 

In my world (utility) it is all about getting the required clearance, or cutting down hazard trees. It ain't about pretty, proper cuts are made, and thats about it. It is either trimmed or cut down, thats the only choices. 

It can be a deadly job, power gives no second chance. We that do the job are highly trained, some of those who supervise us are not, coupled with the fact that they think they are special, problems are bound to happen. When you get an ISA arborist who has become a utility specialist, (by getting at least 75% on multiple choice test), but never done the work, what can he really know? And should he tell people how to do thier work, he is allowed to by the utility, but is it right? I say not. 

There are also men who work for the utility, who were there before the utility got into the ISA, and some of them are good guys, who I like. They knew thier job before, they never tell us how to do our job, they just tell us what they want done. Now you have people in the same job, that promote and allow unsafe work practices, when they are supposed to uphold the safety rules. It makes me sick, I have been treated like sh#t for standing up for what is right and safe and probably limited my career growth by calling b.s. on these people. Thats what I really have a beef with, culls telling the treemen how to do the work.


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> MMMmmmm still the same guy? you bust on the ISA & then wouldnt want anyone else to prune, repair or work on your tree`s?
> 
> Or is it that they have to be an MCA? just would like to know where your coming from. didnt you say;*I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do?*
> 
> LXT................



I would NEVER ask ANYONE to do something I wouldnt, which hasnt come up yet! I will do anything once.

I live by the adage.........You dont know your limits until you find them. You find them by breaking the limits. How do you know what your capable of until you fail at it?


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## BostonBull

lxt said:


> MMMmmmm still the same guy? you bust on the ISA & then wouldnt want anyone else to prune, repair or work on your tree`s?
> 
> Or is it that they have to be an MCA? just would like to know where your coming from. didnt you say;*I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do?*
> 
> LXT................



The comment about the upper echelon meant when we are in the trades that have testing similiar to electricians, linesman, plumbers.


----------



## BostonBull

I trid to take the high road to stop the arguing this morning.......this thread is going in circles.


----------



## Mitchell

*valid point*



M.D. Vaden said:


> Our imaginations can parallel our experience.
> 
> When I was in college, one instructor who had been in business, told be that it was impossible to succeed in business by doing only small size pruning, and without doing lawn care maintenance.
> 
> His imagination was affected by his experience. In fact, he limited his imagination to his experience.
> 
> So in 1988, I started as a "pruning specialist" without doing any lawn maintenance, almost no landscaping and no big tree work. Just the one niche.
> 
> 5 years later, I was glad to explain to the instructor how well business was going, and how it was available to succeed in what he said could not work.
> 
> In such a case, they are "cowboys" doing their own thing, but working out of their league, and not in harmony with all the professional aspects and components that may have been integrated into a property.



I agree my reality is defined by me to a large extent but so is the realities of tree work vs landscaping. In my experience there is to much overlap with landscapers, horticulturists and gardeners on the ground. 

Pruners and planters could just as well advertise themselves as horticulturists. I say to folks that arborists definitively take over when things get to high. In my mind anyways, that is what differentiates a horticulturalist from an arborist. That's not to say I don't plant or plan plantings, I do, but I let folks know they can likely get it done cheaper from a horticulturist or landscaper. [That's just the reality of so many guys with shovels in their trucks and nurseries paying crap wages.]

I would say you are doing as much or more of landscaping/hort then arborist work. 
I agree that every things connected and needs to work in harmony but a line has to be drawn somewhere.


----------



## oldirty

Mitchell said:


> I would say you are doing as much or more of landscaping/hort then arborist work.
> I agree that every things connected and needs to work in harmony but a line has to be drawn somewhere.





totally agree with this statement. mario you are a landscaper masquerading as an arborist.

just because you are certified does not make you a tree guy.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> I agree my reality is defined by me to a large extent but so is the realities of tree work vs landscaping. In my experience there is to much overlap with landscapers, horticulturists and gardeners on the ground.
> 
> Pruners and planters could just as well advertise themselves as horticulturists. I say to folks that arborists definitively take over when things get to high. In my mind anyways, that is what differentiates a horticulturalist from an arborist. That's not to say I don't plant or plan plantings, I do, but I let folks know they can likely get it done cheaper from a horticulturist or landscaper. [That's just the reality of so many guys with shovels in their trucks and nurseries paying crap wages.]
> 
> I would say you are doing as much or more of landscaping/hort then arborist work.
> I agree that every things connected and needs to work in harmony but a line has to be drawn somewhere.



Actually, 80% of my work is tree and shrub pruning, about 2/3 of it trees. Then if I encounter single large trees, I completely refer those to climbing arborists since a middleman is pointless. If a big tree or trees is in a yard with a bunch of small trees, I'll sub-contract to the climber. Sometimes I'll be their ground guy on ropes.

One of my favorite parts of tree related work involves the rope stuff. It's fun to control and manipulate limbs and chunks of wood. It's also been a backsaver by guiding heavy debris over obstacles using the rope. One fun one was the top of a tree we guided over a creek to avoid the hassle of dragging brush to the other side.

So all-in-all, I find the rope work relaxing.

As far as trees go, for climbers, I would like to see some genious someday, invent a chainsaw that could make their work more relaxing too. Personally, I find handsaw pruning relaxing, even if its work. But with chainsaws, often it's the weight and bulk of the machine that's more of a nuisance than the noise.

If only some engineer could find a way to make a chainsaw 1/2 the weight, it would be marvelous. Even if it was just the small saws. Wouldn't it be grand to have a climbing saw that was 50% lighter in weight. Myself, I wouldn't even mind paying $1200 for a small saw, if it was something special like graphite or something, with special alloys, etc..

Someone ought to figure out how to do with chainsaws, like they have done with motorcycles. Like where new ideas were used, say, using the frame for oil. In a chainsaw, why can't a handle become the gas tank to save weight, on a small saw?


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## ropensaddle

M.D. Vaden said:


> Actually, 80% of my work is tree and shrub pruning, about 2/3 of it trees. Then if I encounter single large trees, I completely refer those to climbing arborists since a middleman is pointless. If a big tree or trees is in a yard with a bunch of small trees, I'll sub-contract to the climber. Sometimes I'll be their ground guy on ropes.
> 
> One of my favorite parts of tree related work involves the rope stuff. It's fun to control and manipulate limbs and chunks of wood. It's also been a backsaver by guiding heavy debris over obstacles using the rope. One fun one was the top of a tree we guided over a creek to avoid the hassle of dragging brush to the other side.
> 
> So all-in-all, I find the rope work relaxing.



I don't see the problem with that,I would sub if you were closer
and be glad to get referrals. It takes all sorts of arborists to better phc.
I like rope work at times myself, someday s I love to chip brush but
not often. Your knowledge and experience did not come by being
lazy. I for one would be proud to have you at the end of my rope!
A good rope man knowledge in every area of Arboriculture ,who
could ask for more?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> totally agree with this statement. mario you are a landscaper masquerading as an arborist.
> 
> just because you are certified does not make you a tree guy.



When climbers go to work, they don't climb into a tree.

They step onto a piece of property, in many cases.

The tree is one component of a big piece of landscaping, the workings of which, many climbers have little comprehensive understanding.

Some arborists do, but most of us have been around long enough to know how many or how few arborists are trained to understand the whole landscape. So let's not kid around.

An arborist is an arborist only if they are working in a landscaped environment where they understand the effects of the trees they are working on, and the effects to that environment by what they do on that tree, or trees.

If not, they are masquerading as arborists.

The difference in my case, is that I understand the turf, turf ID, soils, drainage, irrigation, shrubs, perennials, trees and arboriculture, annuals and perennials and more. And when I step onto a property, I understand with comprehension almost everything I work on.

Basically, when compared to someone whose only training and focus is for trees, my service is 300% better. I know trees like the arborists, and landscaping like the landscapers, and design like the designers.

I just can't imagine anymore what it would be like to offer tree service to people, without understanding the rest of the yard.

It's one reason I get so many projects when bidding against some of Portland's more experienced arborist / climber services. Because I'm the one doing the estimates, and the people can see a day vs. night difference when I discuss their trees in relation to to the rest of their property. They figure why get a guy in there that just knows trees, when they can get someone in their that understands their entire plant collection. When paying hundreds of dollars, why pay for 1/3 ability, when you can get 3/3 ability? The decision is obvious.

That's the #1 reason I try not to leave bids without meeting people in person. If I can meet them, it's virtually mine to do. Only 10% or so slip away.

So in a nutshell, I think the potential pitfall for some arborists, is that they see themselves as climbing into a tree, rather than acknowledging they are stepping into a entire plant collection and landscape environment.


----------



## oldirty

i dont understand how you can think your services are 300% better than anyone else if you cant get into the tree to properly diagnose or even work the friggin thing. 

go ahead and get someone else to do the work, thats right. your a manager. you delegate your work.


no matter what you say about what you do you will not get my respect for your aboricultural skill. you prune trees in a lanscaped setting. how many of your cherry trees are up over the clients house? what you do is landscape work. plain and simple.

you can say what your saying seven hundered different ways but that will not change the fact you are a landscaper with ornamental tree pruning skill.


----------



## DonnyO

oldirty said:


> handsnips dont make a treeguy.



Gotta disagree with you on this one buddy. If you can't master the 'snips you shouldn't be putting a saw to a tree. And if you can't use those snips out on the tips of an 80' red oak you aren't a good climber........

This whole thread is f'n reetaaded anyway the kid asked about getting certified. Now it's: "I think this", and "I know a certified guy who sux"


----------



## oldirty

then i must suck donnyo. i dont even own a pair. they broke on me about 5 months ago. i have some beat up ones in my toolbox that got passed on to me but i dont use em. (if i am in the tree working the tips i'd rather have the pole pruner with me.)

oh and in my suckiness regarding my treework i just got yet another raise. thats production homeboy.

to hand snips i say this. put them in the ground handle first. so that the snips are sticking straight up and then do a couple deep knee bends over them.

and no donnyo, i wasnt directing that last comment to you. just suggesting a good use for them. lol


----------



## Davey Dog

I agree, I climb with a pole pruner/saw, my hand saws, and a 200t.

I dont have time to be screwing around with hand snips, They arent productive in the trees I climb.


----------



## DonnyO

oldirty said:


> then i must suck donnyo. i dont even own a pair. they broke on me about 5 months ago. i have some beat up ones in my toolbox that got passed on to me but i dont use em. (if i am in the tree working the tips i'd rather have the pole pruner with me.)





Davey Dog said:


> I agree, I climb with a pole pruner/saw, my hand saws, and a 200t.
> 
> I dont have time to be screwing around with hand snips, They arent productive in the trees I climb.



but you can both at least GET to the tips right? My point in bringing the hand snip thing to light is that like oldirty stated earlier this arguement is all about semantics. Sort of like what defines a good climber is all about semantics.............

I don't always climb with handsnips either, depends on the task at hand really.

Justin I am still laughing at the comment not directed at me, priceless. And congrats on the raise!


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> i dont understand how you can think your services are 300% better



You nailed it my son...

"I don't understand" you said.

And that's exactly what I was getting at.

I'm trained in your art.

But you are not trained in my arts from what I gather.

You would need to have the extra training to "understand". I don't expect you to understand. It's not that I doubt your ability to learn the extra, but that's just the way it is.

For example if we are working on trees at a property where the homeowners do all their own lawn care and stuff and trees are in the lawn, if we cannot IDENTIFY their turfgrass species, how are we supposed to help them coordinate the lawn care with tree care?

The needs of different grasses are totally different, and the thatch they build can be totally different. All these factors can affect the trees, and the trees can affect the turf.

Arborists should be able to know whether the grass is rolled or folded vernation, what it's genus is, the fertilizer requirements, needs for light etc., because its right there growing with the tree in a unified environment.

And grass is just a small fragment of the matter.

I probably have an edge on most due to my 7 years working at country clubs, but it can't take most arborists more than a couple of weeks reading, or an 11 week college class to gain enough basics to add this bit of versatility and remove the handicap from their service.

The best service we can give homeowners, includes advice on what's coming down the track in their yard. We can forewarn them that some plants may need to move or be replaced in the future if pruning the tree won't take care of the entire remedy. That requires knowing the perennials, shrubs and ornamental grasses - at least many common ones. The more advance warning, the better, because it's easier to move plants when they are smaller.

As far as your diagnosing statement: you've got me thinking about orbit and Pluto.

On big trees, I hire exceptional arborists who climb. They have the knowledge, they have the gear, they know how to climb, and they can diagnose.

I pay them top dollar. Usually what they ask, and then some. 

*What this does....

Get this now....*

It puts a minimun of 2 Certified Arborists, and one Certified Landscape Technician on their property. It virtually super-charges the experience and skill that step on-site.

It DOUBLES the tree care background put at their disposal. And it adds the background of my 7 years on country clubs with turf management, drainage, etc.. 

They now get professional arboriculture, turf management, horticulture, and landscape technology all combined together. It's a combination that's rare to get in Oregon. There's a few others, but very very few.

That's why I've enjoyed finding top-notch arborists who climb and respect the need for horticulture, who want to work together when needed. Generally they are humble, because they respect my credentials. And when they are in the trees and I've got the ropes, I tighten or let it fly at their command.


----------



## clearance

DonnyO said:


> Gotta disagree with you on this one buddy. If you can't master the 'snips you shouldn't be putting a saw to a tree. And if you can't use those snips out on the tips of an 80' red oak you aren't a good climber........
> 
> This whole thread is f'n reetaaded anyway the kid asked about getting certified. Now it's: "I think this", and "I know a certified guy who sux"



If you can't master an ms 200t fast cutting tops above a three phase, you shouldn't be using scissors, I mean snips. If you can't fire up a 288xp and rain down big chunks without hitting the three phase, you ain't a good climber. 

What happens if you make a mistake with the snips, OMG, I can't stand to look. 

This thread is retarded? I think, and I know certified guys who suck, bigtime.


----------



## oldirty

M.D. Vaden said:


> You nailed it my son...
> 
> "I don't understand" you said.
> 
> And that's exactly what I was getting at.
> 
> I'm trained in your art.
> 
> But you are not trained in my arts from what I gather.
> 
> You would need to have the extra training to "understand". I don't expect you to understand. It's not that I doubt your ability to learn the extra, but that's just the way it is.
> 
> For example if we are working on trees at a property where the homeowners do all their own lawn care and stuff and trees are in the lawn, if we cannot IDENTIFY their turfgrass species, how are we supposed to help them coordinate the lawn care with tree care?
> 
> The needs of different grasses are totally different, and the thatch they build can be totally different. All these factors can affect the trees, and the trees can affect the turf.
> 
> Arborists should be able to know whether the grass is rolled or folded vernation, what it's genus is, the fertilizer requirements, needs for light etc., because its right there growing with the tree in a unified environment.
> 
> And grass is just a small fragment of the matter.
> 
> I probably have an edge on most due to my 7 years working at country clubs, but it can't take most arborists more than a couple of weeks reading, or an 11 week college class to gain enough basics to add this bit of versatility and remove the handicap from their service.
> 
> The best service we can give homeowners, includes advice on what's coming down the track in their yard. We can forewarn them that some plants may need to move or be replaced in the future if pruning the tree won't take care of the entire remedy. That requires knowing the perennials, shrubs and ornamental grasses - at least many common ones. The more advance warning, the better, because it's easier to move plants when they are smaller.
> 
> As far as your diagnosing statement: you've got me thinking about orbit and Pluto.
> 
> On big trees, I hire exceptional arborists who climb. They have the knowledge, they have the gear, they know how to climb, and they can diagnose.
> 
> I pay them top dollar. Usually what they ask, and then some.
> 
> *What this does....
> 
> Get this now....*
> 
> It puts a minimun of 2 Certified Arborists, and one Certified Landscape Technician on their property. It virtually super-charges the experience and skill that step on-site.
> 
> It DOUBLES the tree care background put at their disposal. And it adds the background of my 7 years on country clubs with turf management, drainage, etc..
> 
> They now get professional arboriculture, turf management, horticulture, and landscape technology all combined together. It's a combination that's rare to get in Oregon. There's a few others, but very very few.
> 
> That's why I've enjoyed finding top-notch arborists who climb and respect the need for horticulture, who want to work together when needed. Generally they are humble, because they respect my credentials. And when they are in the trees and I've got the ropes, I tighten or let it fly at their command.



not that i dont understand how to ornamental prune. i choose not to. to me it sucks. nothing more than landscpape work. all this work you do man my company does too when it comes to the trees. nothing to do with lawn crap though, thank goodness. you should see some of the spreads we are at and all these stupid ornamental pruning jobs we do. i have on numerous occasion thought of moving on because of it. i dislike that type of work that much. the boys know if we are on a pruning job they are on their own. i'll do every bit of the cleanup but i will not touch a pair of handsnips. to me it isnt tree work. 

i am glad that you are passionate about what it is you do mario. i am. i love when someone has pride in what they do but i cannot consider you an arborist. i cant. you might be a CA but your not a tree guy. you landscape.


----------



## DonnyO

clearance said:


> If you can't master an ms 200t fast cutting tops above a three phase, you shouldn't be using scissors, I mean snips. If you can't fire up a 288xp and rain down big chunks without hitting the three phase, you ain't a good climber.
> 
> What happens if you make a mistake with the snips, OMG, I can't stand to look.
> 
> This thread is retarded? I think, and I know certified guys who suck, bigtime.


 
The guys on this thread who know me know I can do all that and more.

Here is one specifically for you though; If you can't footlock, you aren't a good treeclimber.

Stick to spiking, and telling all of AS how great you are because you work around power. :spam:


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> not that i dont understand how to ornamental prune. i choose not to. to me it sucks. nothing more than landscpape work. all this work you do man my company does too when it comes to the trees. nothing to do with lawn crap though, thank goodness. you should see some of the spreads we are at and all these stupid ornamental pruning jobs we do. i have on numerous occasion thought of moving on because of it. i dislike that type of work that much. the boys know if we are on a pruning job they are on their own. i'll do every bit of the cleanup but i will not touch a pair of handsnips. to me it isnt tree work.
> 
> i am glad that you are passionate about what it is you do mario. i am. i love when someone has pride in what they do but i cannot consider you an arborist. i cant. you might be a CA but your not a tree guy. you landscape.



Sounds like a good time to wind up the thead on a good note  

Everyone got to present a side.


----------



## clearance

DonnyO said:


> The guys on this thread who know me know I can do all that and more.
> 
> Here is one specifically for you though; If you can't footlock, you aren't a good treeclimber.
> 
> Stick to spiking, and telling all of AS how great you are because you work around power. :spam:


Oh wow, you can footlock, I am so impressed. When ever there are a few of us utilty guys around and the spurless topic comes up, the laughter soon starts. It doesn't impress us at all, do it if you want, have fun, the consensus among us is that it looks quite gay and dorky. When it comes to treework, I only care about what my fellow utility guys think, and fallers, thats about it. 

I have never said I was great here, ever. So Donny, why you joined this thread is beyond me, you got nothing of any importance to say anyways.


----------



## woodchux

What a bunch of pompas chest thumping...


----------



## treeseer

"I don't think it is asking a lot; climbing trees without stressful time constraints or removal demands is not a hard thing to do with all the MA devices/systems out there.

I agree, and say this to other consultants and nonclimbing arborists all the time. Some do climb. Some don't--their loss, but it does not make them less than us Lords of the Saddle. 

We're hearing narrow biases on what defines the ideal "arborist" or "tree man", from ornamental specialists to utility specialists to removal specialists. Is there a point in saying one is truer? It's not us and them. It's all US.


----------



## BostonBull

treeseer said:


> "I don't think it is asking a lot; climbing trees without stressful time constraints or removal demands is not a hard thing to do with all the MA devices/systems out there.
> 
> I agree, and say this to other consultants and nonclimbing arborists all the time. Some do climb. Some don't--their loss, but it does not make them less than us Lords of the Saddle.
> 
> We're hearing narrow biases on what defines the ideal "arborist" or "tree man", from ornamental specialists to utility specialists to removal specialists. Is there a point in saying one is truer? It's not us and them. It's all US.


----------



## lxt

BostonBull said:


> The man wasnt born a Dr.! So he wasnt an Arborist until he got his doctrate? Becausehe climbed limitedly, if at all?



And the point? no-one is born an Arborist either!! & if he climbed in a limited fashion that is more than what some CA`s are capable of!!


No you didnt stutter!!! I posted your comments as they are in regard to the off thread topic we are all discussing....some of which just seemed contradictory...thats all.


LXT............


----------



## lxt

BostonBull said:


> I would NEVER ask ANYONE to do something I wouldnt, which hasnt come up yet! I will do anything once.
> 
> I live by the adage.........You dont know your limits until you find them. You find them by breaking the limits. How do you know what your capable of until you fail at it?




The point is if one beleives; I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do!!............remember wouldnt do!

then how is it a non-climbing CA would?

LXT.........


----------



## lxt

Maybe more on topic would be to provide the thread starter, the costs associated with becoming a CA, he did mention it will give him a $2hr raise give him some numbers so he can see if it will be worth it!!

some CA`s I know spend alot of $$ keeping up the ceu`s, renewing, buying books, going to meetings, traveling to hear speakers so they can get ceu`s, etc...

I think this has to be taken into account to see if its worth it financially, unless.... you just want the cert.


LXT..........


----------



## oldirty

lxt said:


> The point is if one beleives; I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do!!............remember wouldnt do!
> 
> then how is it a non-climbing CA would?
> 
> LXT.........



the million dollar question!


----------



## BostonBull

lxt said:


> The point is if one beleives; I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do!!............remember wouldnt do!
> 
> then how is it a non-climbing CA would?
> 
> LXT.........



I would have NO problem doing something a CA Arborist tells me to. So long as they had a better grip on the situation than I did.

Say for instance I traveled abroad and wasnt fully aware how all the species responded to prunings. Myself and a non climbing CA were doing an overview of the job. if the CA whom didnt climb, had a strong background in PHC/bioilogy, told me the tree would likely suffer if I did xyz than i would respect his opinion of it.

Now if a CA who didnt climb told me where to set my line, how to tie in, how to strap on my hooks, or start/run my saws there would be problems.


----------



## clearance

Boston Bull is a straight shooter. He is the only person who called up the utility here to talk about climbing trees with spurs around powerlines, probably cost a few bucks in long distance to hear the lengthy stories and lies. Everyone else just called me names (he did too, but thats ok). 
The only one who called, Tom Dunlap made a point of refusing to call, even though I found out (was told by the lying utility guy) he had talked to the utility guy about me anyways. So now on this thread Boston has asked people, instead of #####in about it here, to call up the ISA and express your concerns. 

The time has come, if you are in the ISA, and not happy (I mean how could you be if you really work?), call them or write them. You will probably get back a slimy "we appreciate your concern, dear member...." But why not, what are they gonna do, shoot you?


----------



## clearance

BostonBull said:


> Now if a CA who didnt climb told me where to set my line, how to tie in, how to strap on my hooks, or start/run my saws there would be problems.



There you have it, what I have been saying all along. If you can't do it, go sit in the truck.


----------



## treeseer

lxt said:


> provide the thread starter, the costs associated with becoming a CA, he did mention it will give him a $2hr raise give him some numbers so he can see if it will be worth it!!...
> I think this has to be taken into account to see if its worth it financially, unless.... you just want the cert.....



Great idea; a cost/benefit analysis.

Test for nonmember $225

study guide (if needed) $75?

total $300 to be CA. maybe travel etc to take test maybe not.

Raise $2/hour x 2000 hours/year (40 hrs/wk x 50 wks/yr)= $4000/year, x3= $12,000 gained on the $300 investment.

Recert fee $200 nonmember every 3 years = $66.67 to get $4,000/year, or more, if the CA employee convinces his/her boss.

+ 30 CEU's. These are free at online seminars for anyone. Also in-house training for safety etc., and sharing your knowledge by writing (not on web forums  ), or speaking gets you free CEU's. At least 6/year are available in the magazine based on articles, for members.

"How many ways are there to obtain Continuing Education Units (CEUs)?

* ISA Publications
* ISA Arborist News Quiz
* Arboriculture & the Law/Workbook (3.00 CEUs)
* The Landscape Below Ground/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
* Arborist Equipment/Workbook (10.00 CEUs)
* Plant Health Care for Woody Ornamentals/Workbook (3.00 CEUs)
* Principals & Practices of Planting Trees and Shrubs/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
* Trees and Development/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
* Photo Guide of Hazard Trees/Workbook (2.00 CEUs)
* Compendium Set (58.5 CEUs for complete set of seven categories)
o Tree Biology (8.5 CEUs)
o Plant Health Care (7.5 CEUs)
o Safe Work Practices (8 CEUs)
o Tree Maintenance (7.5 CEUs)
o Trees and Their Environment (8.5 CEUs)
o Tree Selection and Planting (9.5 CEUs)
o Tree Diagnosis and Treatment (9 CEUs) 
* Asian Longhorn Beetle CD/Workbook (2.5 CEUs)
* The Art & Science of Practical Rigging Book (8 CEUs)
* Written and published articles (3.00 CEUs)
* First Aid or CPR class (4.00 CEUs each, given once per certification period) 

CEUs for quizzes from Arborist News and other ISA publications can be earned only once per issue or edition during the life of your certification.

ISA Videos

* Art & Science of Practical Rigging (8.00 CEUs)
* Basic Training for Tree Climbers Series/Workbook (5.00 CEUs)
* Training Young Trees for Structure and Form/Workbook (1.50 CEUs)
* ArborMaster Training I and II Videos/Workbook & Tests (1.00 CEU)
o Series I Climbing Techniques (1.00 CEU)
o Series II Innovating in Climbing Equipment (1.00 CEU)
o Series II Rigging Knots, Rope Slings, and Eye Splices Workbook (1.00 CEU) 


Computer Based Training

* Introduction to Arboriculture CD Series
o Tree Biology CD-Rom (4 CEUs)
o Tree Worker Safety CD-Rom (6 CEUs) 


Seminars

Most seminars are pre-approved through your local chapter. If you would like to know if an upcoming seminar has been pre-approved for credit, you can contact your local chapter. If you are a member of your local chapter you should get a newsletter that informs you of upcoming seminars. You should also check the Arborist News Industry Calendar and the ISA web site.

In-House Training

A lot of companies offer in-house training. Anything educational pertaining to tree care gets CEUs! This includes safety meetings, training, CPR/1st aid, chainsaw safety, etc.

College Courses

College courses are now worth 10 CEU's per credit hour. In the past, college courses were worth 10 CEUs per course and 15 CEUs with a lab. For example, a 3-hour college course is now worth 30 CEUs that was previously worth 10 CEUs. As always, college course work must be an academically accredited 2-year or 4-year institution.

If there is anything not mentioned above that you feel should be worth CEUs please send a letter with the agenda or course outline along with a post-approval form to the ISA office. We will be happy to look it over for you. If it is granted CEUs then it will show on your next CEU update. If it does not meet the criteria (stated below), we will send the information back to you with a letter of explanation. CEU updates are sent twice a year.

The criteria for approving CEUs is as follows. Anything educational pertaining to tree care in the following twelve domains:
# Soil Management
# Pruning
# ID/Selection
# Diagnosis & Treatment
# Installation & Establishment
# Urban Forestry
# Safe Work Practices
# Tree Protection
# Tree Biology
# Tree Risk Management

If you have any questions concerning CEUs, you may email us at [email protected] or you may call (217) 355-9411.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> There you have it, what I have been saying all along. If you can't do it, go sit in the truck.



Clearance I find it hard to believe you have someone telling
you how to tie in,start your saw etc anymore! I may be wrong,
obviously you got a burr up your bu?? about something that has
happened recently to you! I for one would like to hear a few of
your instances, to fully understand what is going on in your world!


----------



## ropensaddle

lxt said:


> The point is if one beleives; I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do!!............remember wouldnt do!
> 
> then how is it a non-climbing CA would?
> 
> LXT.........



How does a pilot drop your azz in a hostile LZ because there is a job to do!
I know there is respect issues but really if a ca with a masters in hort
gives me advise,should I not listen? We could be a hack and say if you
don't top trees you ain't a treeman. What does all this negative energy
accomplish in phc? I have seen this go on and on,and as a professional
it seems sort of child like. If a ncca offered your business work would
you say no I don't do business with nccu's? If so, you are true in your
cause but I would bet my new 3/4 stable braid you would take the job!
It has been my experience that working for these people has been very
beneficial to business! Am I now a target for having worked under a 
nccu? I will tell you he paid much better for my service than I would
have made on my own! I bid the job done the work to his specification
and got a nice tip! opcorn:


----------



## ropensaddle

treeseer said:


> Great idea; a cost/benefit analysis.
> 
> Test for nonmember $225
> 
> study guide (if needed) $75?
> 
> total  $300 to be CA. maybe travel etc to take test maybe not.
> 
> Raise $2/hour x 2000 hours/year (40 hrs/wk x 50 wks/yr)= $4000/year, x3= $12,000 gained on the $300 investment.
> 
> Recert fee $200 nonmember every 3 years = $66.67 to get $4,000/year, or more, if the CA employee convinces his/her boss.
> 
> + 30 CEU's. These are free at online seminars for anyone. Also in-house training for safety etc., and sharing your knowledge by writing (not on web forums  ), or speaking gets you free CEU's. At least 6/year are available in the magazine based on articles, for members.
> 
> "How many ways are there to obtain Continuing Education Units (CEUs)?
> 
> * ISA Publications
> * ISA Arborist News Quiz
> * Arboriculture & the Law/Workbook (3.00 CEUs)
> * The Landscape Below Ground/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
> * Arborist Equipment/Workbook (10.00 CEUs)
> * Plant Health Care for Woody Ornamentals/Workbook (3.00 CEUs)
> * Principals & Practices of Planting Trees and Shrubs/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
> * Trees and Development/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
> * Photo Guide of Hazard Trees/Workbook (2.00 CEUs)
> * Compendium Set (58.5 CEUs for complete set of seven categories)
> o Tree Biology (8.5 CEUs)
> o Plant Health Care (7.5 CEUs)
> o Safe Work Practices (8 CEUs)
> o Tree Maintenance (7.5 CEUs)
> o Trees and Their Environment (8.5 CEUs)
> o Tree Selection and Planting (9.5 CEUs)
> o Tree Diagnosis and Treatment (9 CEUs)
> * Asian Longhorn Beetle CD/Workbook (2.5 CEUs)
> * The Art & Science of Practical Rigging Book (8 CEUs)
> * Written and published articles (3.00 CEUs)
> * First Aid or CPR class (4.00 CEUs each, given once per certification period)
> 
> CEUs for quizzes from Arborist News and other ISA publications can be earned only once per issue or edition during the life of your certification.
> 
> ISA Videos
> 
> * Art & Science of Practical Rigging (8.00 CEUs)
> * Basic Training for Tree Climbers Series/Workbook (5.00 CEUs)
> * Training Young Trees for Structure and Form/Workbook (1.50 CEUs)
> * ArborMaster Training I and II Videos/Workbook & Tests (1.00 CEU)
> o Series I Climbing Techniques (1.00 CEU)
> o Series II Innovating in Climbing Equipment (1.00 CEU)
> o Series II Rigging Knots, Rope Slings, and Eye Splices Workbook (1.00 CEU)
> 
> 
> Computer Based Training
> 
> * Introduction to Arboriculture CD Series
> o Tree Biology CD-Rom (4 CEUs)
> o Tree Worker Safety CD-Rom (6 CEUs)
> 
> 
> Seminars
> 
> Most seminars are pre-approved through your local chapter. If you would like to know if an upcoming seminar has been pre-approved for credit, you can contact your local chapter. If you are a member of your local chapter you should get a newsletter that informs you of upcoming seminars. You should also check the Arborist News Industry Calendar and the ISA web site.
> 
> In-House Training
> 
> A lot of companies offer in-house training. Anything educational pertaining to tree care gets CEUs! This includes safety meetings, training, CPR/1st aid, chainsaw safety, etc.
> 
> College Courses
> 
> College courses are now worth 10 CEU's per credit hour. In the past, college courses were worth 10 CEUs per course and 15 CEUs with a lab. For example, a 3-hour college course is now worth 30 CEUs that was previously worth 10 CEUs. As always, college course work must be an academically accredited 2-year or 4-year institution.
> 
> If there is anything not mentioned above that you feel should be worth CEUs please send a letter with the agenda or course outline along with a post-approval form to the ISA office. We will be happy to look it over for you. If it is granted CEUs then it will show on your next CEU update. If it does not meet the criteria (stated below), we will send the information back to you with a letter of explanation. CEU updates are sent twice a year.
> 
> The criteria for approving CEUs is as follows. Anything educational pertaining to tree care in the following twelve domains:
> # Soil Management
> # Pruning
> # ID/Selection
> # Diagnosis & Treatment
> # Installation & Establishment
> # Urban Forestry
> # Safe Work Practices
> # Tree Protection
> # Tree Biology
> # Tree Risk Management
> 
> If you have any questions concerning CEUs, you may email us at [email protected] or you may call (217) 355-9411.


You mean I am a member and at my price spent over 800.00 on study
material? Of course I have a much better resource library for doing so
and love my Horticopia software!


----------



## M.D. Vaden

As long as folks are going to extend the final note...

Earlier, we reviewed whether a climber not versatile in the full range of landscaping may be handicapped as an arborist. And for now, that's best left as a question, and the climbers left as arborists. But the question is still a good one, because it leaves one extra goal to persue.

Again, instead of focusing merely on climbing which is just a particle of The Whole, let's be sure to include the wide variety of what being an arborist is, or what it may entail. Since this thread was about Becoming an arborist.

This image here shows one more aspect of arboriculture, which can involve modifications to decks.

*In Oregon, my landscape contractors license allows deck work and deck building, for this aspect of arboriculture.*

This kind of tree protection is another mark of a real arborist - another fragment of The Whole.

For me, it would be a pain to be restricted from this kind of work, because I enjoy the variety, and I can help people get the deck designed for future adaption as well.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Now this image has very little to do with being an arborist, except it would be nice for an arborist to know about.

This image is mainly just because it's a cool looking twig.

Not sure if there is enough in the image to show the genus.

But if anyone wants to guess the tree type - go for it. I've seen this type of deformity several times on the same genus out here in the Pacific NW.

Watch Treeseer nail it on the head ...


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Now on this image below, it wouldn't even take a Hot-Dog to guess the problem on the tree.

Odds are that 99% of you arborists will guess this damage right off the bat, knowing that the photo was taken facing Northeast.

It's a weeping cherry tree, and with that fact, most of you can probably explain the most likely cause that you suspect for the injury.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Now here's an Arborist basic.

This is definitely an Arborist 101 and you almost have to have this one under your belt to become an arborist - at least in Apple tree territory.

Transforming a watersprout into a fruit bearing spur.

In this image, is a watersprout that was transformed to a spur that produced flowers and fruit in it's second year.

For their size, apple trees seem to be one of the most demanding trees to do right, but are very rewarding to see when finished, and when flowers and fruit show up.


----------



## lxt

WHOA, Treeseer your figures are a little off there my man!!

$300 dollars, what about ceus? if the person is a nonmember they wont get the magazine with the little .5 or 1 ceu credits they offer.

secondly your pricing seems a little off for non members?????

when I joined it was...if I remember correctly $295.00?? the non member price for the study guide was like $89.00 not to mention the cost for the testing....that I dont recall.

you have given a misinformed example of overall cost comparisons, his $2.00hr raise based on a 2000hr work year will get him a gross of $4000.00 but he will be lucky to take home 1/2 that, he will likely not even notice the raise, once he starts shelling money out of pocket for the, Membership, testing, books, chapter fees???, more books(for ceu`s), renewal fees, etc..

I think his certification will cost a lot more than $300.00 over the course of three years, Ive talked to arbos & they have informed me on costs & headaches for keeping their cert.......and its way more than $300.00.

Honestly if it only cost what you said, Id have gotten my certification!!! but that is not the case.


LXT............


----------



## lxt

treeseer said:


> Great idea; a cost/benefit analysis.
> 
> Test for nonmember $225
> 
> study guide (if needed) $75?
> 
> total $300 to be CA. maybe travel etc to take test maybe not.
> 
> Raise $2/hour x 2000 hours/year (40 hrs/wk x 50 wks/yr)= $4000/year, x3= $12,000 gained on the $300 investment.
> 
> Recert fee $200 nonmember every 3 years = $66.67 to get $4,000/year, or more, if the CA employee convinces his/her boss.
> 
> + 30 CEU's. These are free at online seminars for anyone. Also in-house training for safety etc., and sharing your knowledge by writing (not on web forums  ), or speaking gets you free CEU's. At least 6/year are available in the magazine based on articles, for members.
> 
> "How many ways are there to obtain Continuing Education Units (CEUs)?
> 
> * ISA Publications
> * ISA Arborist News Quiz
> * Arboriculture & the Law/Workbook (3.00 CEUs)
> * The Landscape Below Ground/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
> * Arborist Equipment/Workbook (10.00 CEUs)
> * Plant Health Care for Woody Ornamentals/Workbook (3.00 CEUs)
> * Principals & Practices of Planting Trees and Shrubs/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
> * Trees and Development/Workbook (4.00 CEUs)
> * Photo Guide of Hazard Trees/Workbook (2.00 CEUs)
> * Compendium Set (58.5 CEUs for complete set of seven categories)
> o Tree Biology (8.5 CEUs)
> o Plant Health Care (7.5 CEUs)
> o Safe Work Practices (8 CEUs)
> o Tree Maintenance (7.5 CEUs)
> o Trees and Their Environment (8.5 CEUs)
> o Tree Selection and Planting (9.5 CEUs)
> o Tree Diagnosis and Treatment (9 CEUs)
> * Asian Longhorn Beetle CD/Workbook (2.5 CEUs)
> * The Art & Science of Practical Rigging Book (8 CEUs)
> * Written and published articles (3.00 CEUs)
> * First Aid or CPR class (4.00 CEUs each, given once per certification period)
> 
> CEUs for quizzes from Arborist News and other ISA publications can be earned only once per issue or edition during the life of your certification.
> 
> ISA Videos
> 
> * Art & Science of Practical Rigging (8.00 CEUs)
> * Basic Training for Tree Climbers Series/Workbook (5.00 CEUs)
> * Training Young Trees for Structure and Form/Workbook (1.50 CEUs)
> * ArborMaster Training I and II Videos/Workbook & Tests (1.00 CEU)
> o Series I Climbing Techniques (1.00 CEU)
> o Series II Innovating in Climbing Equipment (1.00 CEU)
> o Series II Rigging Knots, Rope Slings, and Eye Splices Workbook (1.00 CEU)
> 
> 
> Computer Based Training
> 
> * Introduction to Arboriculture CD Series
> o Tree Biology CD-Rom (4 CEUs)
> o Tree Worker Safety CD-Rom (6 CEUs)
> 
> 
> 
> The criteria for approving CEUs is as follows. Anything educational pertaining to tree care in the following twelve domains:
> # Soil Management
> # Pruning
> # ID/Selection
> # Diagnosis & Treatment
> # Installation & Establishment
> # Urban Forestry
> # Safe Work Practices
> # Tree Protection
> # Tree Biology
> # Tree Risk Management



C`mon Seer, you have shown the books & how to obtain credits, Now show the price of those books.......their not cheap!! lets give the thread starter a fair Idea!! of course it would be best to contact ISA for current pricing.

LXT.......


----------



## M.D. Vaden

lxt said:


> WHOA, Treeseer your figures are a little off there my man!!
> 
> $300 dollars, what about ceus? if the person is a nonmember they wont get the magazine with the little .5 or 1 ceu credits they offer.
> 
> secondly your pricing seems a little off for non members?????



This .pdf here >> http://www.isa-arbor.com/Certification/resources/certapp.pdf
listed on page 7 that the test is $225 for non-members. Hasn't changed for some years. The arborist certification guide on this link, indicates basically $95 >> http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/Arborists-Certification-Study-Guide--P5C1.aspx 

But as of today anyway, *red letter note says limited time offer 25% off*, so it is $75 as of Treeseer's posting.

Treeseer appears to be right about the low end ...

He also listed the Online Seminars which are FREE CEUs. So if someone opts for the free CEUs, then they just have the renewal fee at 3 year intervals. 

But going from memory, you were close about the book.


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Clearance I find it hard to believe you have someone telling
> you how to tie in,start your saw etc anymore! I may be wrong,
> obviously you got a burr up your bu?? about something that has
> happened recently to you! I for one would like to hear a few of
> your instances, to fully understand what is going on in your world!



A few things, asked by CAs to 1)climb dead trees that are unsafe (I fell them)

2) Remove a jackpot (nasty blowdown of many trees) but to leave all the logs in long lengths (I made the cuts where it was safe) 

3) push over trees beside powerlines with an aluminum pike pole instead of the mandated rope (I questioned this and was fired) 

4) work by power without a mandated permit (I questioned and was fired) 

5) told not to tell the person in charge of that part of the power system I was working on it (I questioned and was fired) 

So yes, I am pizzed off at the whole CA b.s. I dared question thier directing unsafe work practices and got fired by the company I was working for, the first time I been fired. The first two things I just did it my way, my point is they asked. 

Is that enough?


----------



## D Mc

lxt said:


> C`mon Seer, you have shown the books & how to obtain credits, Now show the price of those books.......their not cheap!! lets give the thread starter a fair Idea!! of course it would be best to contact ISA for current pricing.
> 
> LXT.......



Will somebody PLEASE find this guy and take his laptop away.  

Seriously, my calculations for current costs:

Nonmember test taking fee: $225; study guide (book and audio, Best Mgt practices and 3 ANSI regs, pruning, fertilization and support systems and Z133.1 reg) : $200 (book alone $95). For a total of $425. (Travel and motel extra, obviously). Figuring a $2/hr raise, it will take approximately 5 1/3 weeks to break even on this expenditure (Matt's going to have to figure his own taxes...) For recertification at 3 years: $200

For a member: 
Dues in ISA w/one chapter: $155 (can vary more or less depending on the chapter of your choice). 
Test fee: $125; 
study guide: $140. 
Total for member: $420 ($5 cheaper than nonmember)

I choose to renew ISA membership annually so figure two more years at $155 each: $310. Recertification fee at the end of 3 years: $100. 

As Treeseer pointed out there are many affordable ways to obtain CEUs. I am not including buying reference books in these quotes as there are many options. I happen to be a book buyer so tend to go that way.

Being a member of a powerful association that supports both trees and tree workers' interests is a good thing, in my humble opinion.

S Mc


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> A few things, asked by CAs to 1)climb dead trees that are unsafe (I fell them)
> 
> 2) Remove a jackpot (nasty blowdown of many trees) but to leave all the logs in long lengths (I made the cuts where it was safe)
> 
> 3) push over trees beside powerlines with an aluminum pike pole instead of the mandated rope (I questioned this and was fired)
> 
> 4) work by power without a mandated permit (I questioned and was fired)
> 
> 5) told not to tell the person in charge of that part of the power system I was working on it (I questioned and was fired)
> 
> So yes, I am pizzed off at the whole CA b.s. I dared question thier directing unsafe work practices and got fired by the company I was working for, the first time I been fired. The first two things I just did it my way, my point is they asked.
> 
> Is that enough?


Very interesting were the ca hire by the utility? Were they ca us
or just ca's? Did you document the specifics date ,time, persons
involved,witnesses, just normal foreman duties? I would say if
your answer is yes to those questions, go to the safety commission
in your area. You may be known as a whistle blower but you can
have a say in safe practice at that company! Probably wont get
your job back,am I to take it you are unemployed?


----------



## ropensaddle

D Mc said:


> Will somebody PLEASE find this guy and take his laptop away.
> 
> Seriously, my calculations for current costs:
> 
> Nonmember test taking fee: $225; study guide (book and audio, Best Mgt practices and 3 ANSI regs, pruning, fertilization and support systems and Z133.1 reg) : $200 (book alone $95). For a total of $425. (Travel and motel extra, obviously). Figuring a $2/hr raise, it will take approximately 5 1/3 weeks to break even on this expenditure (Matt's going to have to figure his own taxes...) For recertification at 3 years: $200
> 
> For a member:
> Dues in ISA w/one chapter: $155 (can vary more or less depending on the chapter of your choice).
> Test fee: $125;
> study guide: $140.
> Total for member: $420 ($5 cheaper than nonmember)
> 
> I choose to renew ISA membership annually so figure two more years at $155 each: $310. Recertification fee at the end of 3 years: $100.
> 
> As Treeseer pointed out there are many affordable ways to obtain CEUs. I am not including buying reference books in these quotes as there are many options. I happen to be a book buyer so tend to go that way.
> 
> Being a member of a powerful association that supports both trees and tree workers' interests is a good thing, in my humble opinion.
> 
> S Mc


I totally agree whoops it is time to pay dues:monkey:I still
agree


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Very interesting were the ca hire by the utility? Were they ca us
> or just ca's? Did you document the specifics date ,time, persons
> involved,witnesses, just normal foreman duties? I would say if
> your answer is yes to those questions, go to the safety commission
> in your area. You may be known as a whistle blower but you can
> have a say in safe practice at that company! Probably wont get
> your job back,am I to take it you are unemployed?



The utility has CAs working for them, ISA certified utility specialists. In years gone by these men, known as vegetation coordinators were not ISA certified, now they all are. The ones that were around before the ISA b.s came along are pretty much decent guys, some of the guys hired since are actually certified utility arborists like myself, of course they know the deal, very well. It is the ones who think they are God because they got the ISA cert. that are the problem.

I made formal written complaints after I was fired, the company that fired me ended up paying me about $4500 to settle. Because of my efforts, the utility has ordered certain practices to be stopped. Practices that should have never been allowed in the first place. I have made enemies, no doubt, but thats not the point. When you have unqualified, inexperienced guys making things up on thier own, in postions of power, you are going to have problems.

I found work very soon after being fired, there is lots of work here, thanks for asking.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> The utility has CAs working for them, ISA certified utility specialists. In years gone by these men, known as vegetation coordinators were not ISA certified, now they all are. The ones that were around before the ISA b.s came along are pretty much decent guys, some of the guys hired since are actually certified utility arborists like myself, of course they know the deal, very well. It is the ones who think they are God because they got the ISA cert. that are the problem.
> 
> I made formal written complaints after I was fired, the company that fired me ended up paying me about $4500 to settle. Because of my efforts, the utility has ordered certain practices to be stopped. Practices that should have never been allowed in the first place. I have made enemies, no doubt, but thats not the point. When you have unqualified, inexperienced guys making things up on thier own, in postions of power, you are going to have problems.
> 
> I found work very soon after being fired, there is lots of work here, thanks for asking.


Great to hear you are moving on and as always hope the best
for fellow tree men. It would seem you may have encountered 
a bad apple in your career! I would strongly suggest you fight
by getting the cert yourself,if the issue ever comes to light
in future your interests may be better served by having the
credential to support your ideas of safety! It could not hurt
and you may be in position to change without moving on the 
next time it occurs. I wish I had done it many years ago, my
one regret was not getting formal education even though 
I have intensive study devoted toward it. I am going to
take my test in March in Tenn then get Utility specialist
added soon! I am old school have climbed with bowline on
the bight I watched many of less experience move above
me by education and fought the idea for years. Reallity
I am worse to myself for not doing what is necessary to
move up the ladder. I had respect of most of those guys
in the utility as the one that can do it but where does it
get you old and brokedown for little return!


----------



## lxt

which laptop would you like? funny how when I talk to arbo`s the dollar amount they give me for keeping the cert. is way higher, secondly how long have you been a CA?

cause all the guys I know have said that after 10-15 years the CEU options are bleak....meaning from what Im told you will have to repurchase the same books you already have!!

when I checked it would have cost me way more than $300.00

& how do non-members get Ceu`s...... they either buy the books or pay for the ability to be able to get them.

what is the cost of the following:

Membership= ? must have this to get the Magazine for the CEU`s

CA study guide= ? we`ll say $75....but its more like $89+s&h

The CA test= ?

Chapter dues= ? cause they dont really like non-members coming to get Ceu`s, let alone not being a member how do you keep track of your CEU`s!!
& if your not a member....how do you get them? & at what cost?

being a non-member is the harder route, they tend to loose your CEU`s or not give credit for them......has happened to many I know.

I will call the ISA tommorrow & get some info from them, cause if its that cheap Ill get my Cert. just for the heck of it!!! 

LXT.............


----------



## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Great to hear you are moving on and as always hope the best
> for fellow tree men. It would seem you may have encountered
> a bad apple in your career! I would strongly suggest you fight
> by getting the cert yourself,if the issue ever comes to light
> in future your interests may be better served by having the
> credential to support your ideas of safety! It could not hurt
> and you may be in position to change without moving on the
> next time it occurs. I wish I had done it many years ago, my
> one regret was not getting formal education even though
> I have intensive study devoted toward it. I am going to
> take my test in March in Tenn then get Utility specialist
> added soon! I am old school have climbed with bowline on
> the bight I watched many of less experience move above
> me by education and fought the idea for years. Reallity
> I am worse to myself for not doing what is necessary to
> move up the ladder. I had respect of most of those guys
> in the utility as the one that can do it but where does it
> get you old and brokedown for little return!



I do not need ISA anything to know about safety, its mostly there in the work laws we have. I can't stand the thought of giving them my money. You will be the same man after the test Rope, you will just have C.A. after your name. But, you are a real treeman, which is more than I can say for many of those ISA culls.


----------



## ropensaddle

lxt said:


> which laptop would you like? funny how when I talk to arbo`s the dollar amount they give me for keeping the cert. is way higher, secondly how long have you been a CA?
> 
> cause all the guys I know have said that after 10-15 years the CEU options are bleak....meaning from what Im told you will have to repurchase the same books you already have!!
> 
> when I checked it would have cost me way more than $300.00
> 
> & how do non-members get Ceu`s...... they either buy the books or pay for the ability to be able to get them.
> 
> what is the cost of the following:
> 
> Membership= ? must have this to get the Magazine for the CEU`s
> 
> CA study guide= ? we`ll say $75....but its more like $89+s&h
> 
> The CA test= ?
> 
> Chapter dues= ? cause they dont really like non-members coming to get Ceu`s, let alone not being a member how do you keep track of your CEU`s!!
> & if your not a member....how do you get them? & at what cost?
> 
> being a non-member is the harder route, they tend to loose your CEU`s or not give credit for them......has happened to many I know.
> 
> I will call the ISA tommorrow & get some info from them, cause if its that cheap Ill get my Cert. just for the heck of it!!!
> 
> LXT.............



Dmc has a better cost breakdown, most will need more than
the study guide to pass the test is what I have been told.
I bought all the suggested material for reference and to learn
more on the ins and outs, The software is cool but probably
not as necessary! The Audio is helpful but may not be necessary 
unless you are like me and greek, truely is greek lol.
All in all its pretty expensive but I was able to write the expense
off on tax so the hit was not what it could be.
I also like having references on hand to help with the proper
decision toward phc. and the horticopia is awesome but 
expensive!


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> I do not need ISA anything to know about safety, its mostly there in the work laws we have. I can't stand the thought of giving them my money. You will be the same man after the test Rope, you will just have C.A. after your name. But, you are a real treeman, which is more than I can say for many of those ISA culls.



You are absolutely right on you not needing it for safety.
Canopy and proper training has supplied you with that.
I would talk with the management where you work to
see if they have a eap that may pay for your fees
and literature! The idea being learning the rest of the
industry to prepare for stronger career opportunities
in your future. Think of it as becoming part of and
learning more about the trees you are in everyday,
and to learn how to give back to your passion of
treework! Or end up like I did put in 100% most of
your adult live, to get screwed over by the nephew
of the manager being handed his title at his retirement
party! I respect the work you do and don't want to 
separate you from being all you can be with learning
all you can and having clearance: ca utility specialist
bs in forestry masters in horticulture by your name
you will have more opportunity I promise!


----------



## Mitchell

*Bcma*



treeseer said:


> "I don't think it is asking a lot; climbing trees without stressful time constraints or removal demands is not a hard thing to do with all the MA devices/systems out there.
> 
> I agree, and say this to other consultants and nonclimbing arborists all the time. Some do climb. Some don't--their loss, but it does not make them less than us Lords of the Saddle.
> 
> We're hearing narrow biases on what defines the ideal "arborist" or "tree man", from ornamental specialists to utility specialists to removal specialists. Is there a point in saying one is truer? It's not us and them. It's all US.



Vaden and treeseer from your posts I know you two have forgotten more then I know about trees. In the mean time I keep reading and listening. 

The ideal arborist would have to climb. As you know on the west coast of NA the stands [whats left anyways!] are comprised of massive tall trees having their own ecology in the canopy. The only way to interact with them is to get up there. 

Keeping with an aviation analogy, when one says pilot or aeronautical engineer, it implies certain skill sets. 

The point I am driving at is I think we need to redifine what an arborist is. Any one who works with low lying vegetation and trees is a horticulturist. Why not just call them that. This is not to take anything away from anybody; just clarification. Perhaps the ISA should be the ISHA [International society of horticulturists and arborists].


----------



## clearance

Thanks Rope, I appreciate your concern. It kind of funny, or sad, that an ISA utility specialist would have more say and get more respect. 

1) I worked over 1200 hours around power (like really worked, up beside the three phase, all that), went to school for six weeks over two years, and then wrote a few tests. Now I have to do a test on the computer every two years. Thats to become and stay a certified utility arborist, an actual trade.

2) ISA utility specialist-has to have been around utilty treework for a bit (whatever that entails...). And then writes a multiple question test that he has to get 75% on. 

Think I could do #2? Just joking now.


----------



## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Thanks Rope, I appreciate your concern. It kind of funny, or sad, that an ISA utility specialist would have more say and get more respect.
> 
> 1) I worked over 1200 hours around power (like really worked, up beside the three phase, all that), went to school for six weeks over two years, and then wrote a few tests. Now I have to do a test on the computer every two years. Thats to become and stay a certified utility arborist, an actual trade.
> 
> 2) ISA utility specialist-has to have been around utilty treework for a bit (whatever that entails...). And then writes a multiple question test that he has to get 75% on.
> 
> Think I could do #2? Just joking now.



Clearance; I feel you could do anything you set your mind to doing!
The way I understand the test is: you must first study and pass
certified arborist in twelve domains before testing to get utility specialist.
Anyway; if I was you I would check to see if your company has employee
assistance and if they do get all you can behind your name it only
hurts to not try!


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> Vaden and treeseer from your posts I know you two have forgotten more then I know about trees. In the mean time I keep reading and listening.
> 
> The ideal arborist would have to climb. As you know on the west coast of NA the stands [whats left anyways!] are comprised of massive tall trees having their own ecology in the canopy. The only way to interact with them is to get up there.



I try to look at statements from both sides, and apply the ideas to as many situations as possible, to see if any ideas hold-up, poop-out, or could be thought of differently.

One thing that came to mind, was an earlier reply that in essence said that the authority or the expert is going to be the one in the tree. It wasn't till today that I remembered that I have not seen a CA climber arborist OWNER climb each tree done by one of their employed arborists to determine the competence of the work.In other words, it's available to see and know a heck of a lot from the ground. 

Then the "need to climb" for the skyscrapers of tree work came in consideration too. I was trying to think of comparisons that were useful, without twisting matters. What I've seen for a couple of days, is some climbers promoting that you have to virtually do and know all that can be done with trees, to the greatest limits, to really be an arborist.

*Then I recalled firefighting. To apply the same logic - or mislogic as I say - a firefighter of an urban residential area, would not really be a firefighter unless they had done virtually everything involved with firefighting. They would need to be trained and have experience for warehouses, real skyscrapers, and for forest fires. Since forest fire fighting frequently involves flying very large aircraft, and releasing water and fire retardant, that also would have to be done by ANY firefighter, for them to REALLY be a firefighter. And that would include getting the pilot license. Such reasoning also mandates that each firefighter would need to continuously do every size and type of firefighting, and keep and use any and all equipment.

Most firefighters get a lot of training, but it's certain that there are specialties and specialized equipment from department to department.*

Soon we see that it's just some arborists that try and manipulate ideas and reasoning that way. Physicians don't.

Can you imagine a family physiciaan only being a real physician if he did everything and had all the equipment used in the medical field. He'd have to be fully trained in brain surgery, heart surgery, dentistry, etc.. Because that's exactly what it would take to apply the logic that climbers are trying to use, about defining an arborist.

So no - nobody has to climb to be an arborist. Likewise, a climber does not have to use an orchard ladder or hand pruners to be an arborist.

All they have to do, is be trained in proper tree care, be experienced, and work safely and competently with whatever size and scope of work they decide to undertake.

That's called common sense and flexibility. And that common sense is what a lot of the real-world is using.

Can you imagine a kitchen remodeling specialty contractor or a single level home builder not being a REAL contractor because they don't build high rises. Can you imagine the laughing to scorn that would be aimed at a high-rise builder who tried to make people think that a typical home builder was not a contractor? Or that a kitchen remodeler was not a contractor.

The situation would be both embarrassing and confusing.

That leads me to wonder what kind of ego or fear, leads people to miss the common sense logic that society can effectively succeed when people specialize and work within the limits of their knowledge and equipment.

Basically, I've never heard this kind of "have to do it all to be one" reasoning from any profession except some climbers.

Remember, arboriculture IS horticulture. In addition, what an arborist IS has been defined by what "arboriculture" is. When tree workers really get honest about all this, what needs to be defined is tree professional's reasoning, not what an "arborist" is.

Your posted mentioned the "ideal arborist" - it ain't a climber.

If a climber wants to retire from climbing and provide consulting and estimating, if they give it 100% in that niche, they are the ideal arborist. If another arborist decides to switch to starting a company like Big Trees Today in Oregon, and specialize in tree planting and large tree transplanting, if they give it 100% they are the ideal arborist. If another arborist decides to specialize in diagnosis, pesticide control and organic tree care, if they give it 100%, they are the ideal arborist. And if a climber decides to specialize in climbing giving it 100% in that niche, they are the ideal arborist.

Please leave yourself open to reconsidering that "perfect" does not equal "everything".

The firefighting example earlier, or contractors or phycians, were written to show just how big of a burden some climbers want to place on the arboriculture trade. They want to impose their will on the tree trade, to remove flexibility, and hand-cuff many arborists to the notion of MUST DO ALL to be considered a REAL aborist. It's sort of an imperial mindset, since it places an impossible burden on THE WHOLE.


----------



## clearance

M.D. Vaden said:


> That leads me to wonder what kind of ego or fear, leads people to miss the common sense logic that society can effectively succeed when people specialize and work within the limits of their knowledge and equipment.
> 
> Basically, I've never heard this kind of "have to do it all to be one" reasoning from any profession except some climbers.



The problem is, as I have said many times in this thread, is when people work (supervise) outside thier limits of knowledge. 

They do not have to climb (do it all) to ask people what to do, but they should leave the "how" alone, because they don't have the knowledge. Think about it.


----------



## Mitchell

*No offence ment*



M.D. Vaden said:


> I try to look at statements from both sides, and apply the ideas to as many situations as possible, to see if any ideas hold-up, poop-out, or could be thought of differently.
> 
> One thing that came to mind, was an earlier reply that in essence said that the authority or the expert is going to be the one in the tree. It wasn't till today that I remembered that I have not seen a CA climber arborist OWNER climb each tree done by one of their employed arborists to determine the competence of the work.In other words, it's available to see and know a heck of a lot from the ground.
> 
> Then the "need to climb" for the skyscrapers of tree work came in consideration too. I was trying to think of comparisons that were useful, without twisting matters. What I've seen for a couple of days, is some climbers promoting that you have to virtually do and know all that can be done with trees, to the greatest limits, to really be an arborist.
> 
> Then I recalled firefighting. To apply the same logic - or mislogic as I say - a firefighter of an urban residential area, would not really be a firefighter unless they had done virtually everything involved with firefighting. They would need to be trained and have experience for warehouses, real skyscrapers, and for forest fires. Since forest fire fighting frequently involves flying very large aircraft, and releasing water and fire retardant, that also would have to be done by ANY firefighter, for them to REALLY be a firefighter.
> 
> Soon we see that it's just some arborists that try and manipulate ideas and reasoning that way. Physicians don't.
> 
> Can you imagine a family physiciaan only being a real physician if he did everything and had all the equipment used in the medical field. He's have to be fully trained in brain surgery, heart surgery, dentistry, etc.. Because that's exactly what it would take to apply the logic that climbers are trying to use, about defining an arborist.
> 
> So no - nobody has to climb to be an arborist. Likewise, a climber does not have to use an orchard ladder or hand pruners to be an arborist.
> 
> All they have to do, is be trained in proper tree care, be experienced, and work safely and competently with whatever size and scope of work they decide to undertake.
> 
> That's called common sense and flexibility. And that common sense is what a lot of the real-world is using.
> 
> Can you imagine a kitchen remodeling specialty contractor or a single level home builder not being a REAL contractor because they don't build high rises. Can you imagine the laughing to scorn that would be aimed at a high-rise builder who tried to make people think that a typical home builder was not a contractor? Or that a kitchen remodeler was not a contractor.
> 
> The situation would be both embarrassing and confusing.
> 
> That leads me to wonder what kind of ego or fear, leads people to miss the common sense logic that society can effectively succeed when people specialize and work within the limits of their knowledge and equipment.
> 
> Basically, I've never heard this kind of "have to do it all to be one" reasoning from any profession except some climbers.




Not trying to argue semantics. I would just prefer the trade/profession of "arborist" to be be a climbing one. That way when some one opens the phone book etc they know what an arborist can do. You don't need to call an arborsit to get help with your trees, plants or low lying vegetation whatever the problem. You do need a climbing arborist [or tree guy] to get help when disorders/ defects are present in the upper canopy. That's an inescapable fact that I would prefer implicitly understood and recognized. 

Sure ego plays some role, but I think that is OK, I want someone to appreciate who is on the other end of the line when they call. 

For me, it is not at all about who is "better." Right now the truth is the general public would better understand who they are hiring if I said I was a tree topper. I want a title other then "tree topper" that people understand. 

On a side note as I happen to have background in wildland and structural fire; every firefighter is expected to be able to respond to whatever fire may bring. Air tanker guys do not think of themselves as fire fighters, rather pilots that happen to work fires.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> The problem is, as I have said many times in this thread, is when people work (supervise) outside thier limits of knowledge.
> 
> They do not have to climb (do it all) to ask people what to do, but they should leave the "how" alone, because they don't have the knowledge. Think about it.



Most of that makes sense, the not working outside their limits.

As for the "how", let's say there is a broken limb 40 feet in the air. There can be several ways to get it down. Lower it with a rope, "bomb it down", support and move with a crane, or dissect in small pieces.

The most critical aspect is that the limb needs to be pruned-off and the cut done properly. That part might be good to consider "THE CORE" of arboriculture and being an arborist.

I was checking out some established definitions of arborist again just to see what several sources list...



> ar·bori·cul·ture (är′bə rə kul′c̸hər, är bôr′əkulc̸hər)
> 
> noun
> 
> the scientific cultivation of trees and shrubs





> The cultivation of trees and shrubs, chiefly for timber or for ornamental purposes.
> 
> Origin: L. Arbor tree + cultura. See Culture.
> 
> Source: Websters Dictionary





> Arboriculture is the selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants and the study of how they grow and respond to cultural practices and the environment.
> 
> The purpose is generally to manage trees, usually in a garden or urban setting, for plant health and longevity, pest and pathogen resistance, risk management and ornamental or aesthetic reasons. In this, it needs to be distinguished from forestry, which is the commercial production and use of timber and other forest products from plantations and forests. Arboriculture can be considered to have a similar relationship to forestry as gardening has to agriculture.
> 
> Some definitions of the term arboriculture extend it only to the care of trees.



Following is from ISA's site, and it has a very important *word in it that sums up the matter "INDIVIDUAL TREES"* and the safety and equipped aspects. That's why an arborist is an arborist no matter what size they specialize in. Large trees are INDIVIDUAL TREES and one person can do that safely and properly. Small trees are also INDIVIDUAL TREES and those need to be done safely and properly.

That's where some climber's thinking deviated from this logical approach. Some climbers have *substituted LARGE trees in their reasoning to replace INDIVIDUAL trees*.



> Why Hire an Arborist
> 
> An arborist is a specialist in the care of individual trees. Arborists are knowledgeable about the needs of trees and are trained and equipped to provide proper care. Hiring an arborist is a decision that should not be taken lightly. Proper tree care is an investment that can lead to substantial returns. Well-cared-for trees are attractive and can add considerable value to your property. Poorly maintained trees can be a significant liability. Pruning or removing trees, especially large trees, can be dangerous work. Tree work should be done only by those trained and equipped to work safely in trees.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> Not trying to argue semantics. I would just prefer the trade/profession of "arborist" to be be a climbing one. That way when some one opens the phone book etc they know what an arborist can do. You don't need to call an arborsit to get help with your trees, plants or low lying vegetation whatever the problem.



Yes, now you are stating what I wrote about some climbers preferring to impose theire "will" as in what they prefer.

It's not what culture and profession prefers.

When people open a phone book to Physicians, they don't want ONE heading.

That's why Physician lists add sub-headings and descriptions to their ads.

In landscaping, landscapers may only want to do irrigation, so there is a heading for that. If not, they have the right to pay for a DESCRIPTION.

As we can see from how professionals in advertising have accomodated this, and other professions effectively specialize, there is no problem. Except to those who "want" to see it one way.

I don't know anybody who goes to the phone book to get a definition.

Also, *we now see CLIMBING Certified Arborists who are also license landscape contractors. And they deserve the FREEDOM to add into their arborist / tree service advertsing that they offer those addtional services*.

You seem to have a very narrow idea of what an arborist company should be advertising for. And that's not my opinion. You basically said it yourself.

And a lot top level professionals are not going to allow that kind of thinking to constrain their ability to communicate. That's why I was using the vocabulary in earlier posts about "handcuffing" or "freedom" etc.. - however I phrased it, but that's the essence.


----------



## clearance

M.D. stop the semantics, word games. "Most" of my last small post makes sense? What part doesn't? As for the "how", know what, I'll remove it how I want, 'cause I can. 
How about this, there is a broken but still attached limb hanging 1' above a 25kv three phase, and it has to be climbed, there is no access for a bucket truck?


----------



## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> M.D. stop the semantics, word games. "Most" of my last small post makes sense? What part doesn't? As for the "how", know what, I'll remove it how I want, 'cause I can.
> How about this, there is a broken but still attached limb hanging 1' above a 25kv three phase, and it has to be climbed, there is no access for a bucket truck?



Is there?

No problem, get an arborist trained to handle that niche.

As to "arboriculture knowledge and ability" a bunch of arborists of all kinds can recognize the need for it to be done safely.

Get the right specialist and the right number of them, to work on that INDIVIDUAL tree (refer to last post about "individual trees").

As far as semantics, there's no way to get around that in a title, because nothing is more semantical than a title.

If getting to the root of what words and titles should mean starts to irritate people, it may be because their ideas are being dismantled into component parts to see those in pieces and as an entire concept.

I just did the same thing with Feng Shui the other day for my site. I *dismantled one aspect* of Feng Shui where is says not to use dried flowers because they are dead. Then I continued to supply that many dried flowers have seeds which contain life and that the dried flowers are designed to contain and disperse that life. Now that won't change Feng Shui, but it will help to understand whether Feng Shui is going out of bounds with it's statements. The Feng Shui approach virtually contradicts its own promotion of harmony. If something should not be used because its dead, then remove all the wood furniture, floors and picture frames from the home, because its a dead part of a what was a living tree. The Feng Shui folks just like to pick and choose, but don't adhere to a principle that even means what they say.


----------



## Mitchell

*no war drums here*



M.D. Vaden said:


> Yes, now you are stating what I wrote about some climbers preferring to impose theire "will" as in what they prefer.
> 
> It's not what culture and profession prefers.
> 
> When people open a phone book to Physicians, they don't want ONE heading.
> 
> That's why Physician lists add sub-headings and descriptions to their ads.
> 
> In landscaping, landscapers may only want to do irrigation, so there is a heading for that. If not, they have the right to pay for a DESCRIPTION.
> 
> As we can see from how professionals in advertising have accomodated this, and other professions effectively specialize, there is no problem. Except to those who "want" to see it one way.
> 
> I don't know anybody who goes to the phone book to get a definition.
> 
> Also, we now see CLIMING Certified Arborists who are also license landscape contractors. And they deserve the FREEDOM to add into their arborist / tree service advertsing that they offer those addtional services.
> 
> You seem to have a very narrow idea of what an arborist company should be advertising for. And that's not my opinion. You basically said it yourself.
> 
> And a lot top level professionals are not going to allow that kind of thinking to constrain their ability to communicate. That's why I was using the vocabulary in earlier posts about "handcuffing" or "freedom" etc.. - however I phrased it, but that's the essence.



I'm not martyring myself over this issue by any means Vaden. I think we could be saying, judging by your analogies, the same thing. I propose that some one hiring an arborist, like visiting a Physicians, can have certain expectations all under one heading.

I have no problems agreeing to disagree. Not for second do I propose to limit any one from what they can offer business wise or want to pursue for personnel growth. I do not advocate a club of secret hand shakes. 

I would not expect every one who gets into a tree to "let loose the dogs of war." Rather, just that they can use many of the widely available systems for ascending if required. Not they have to, just that they could. It is not asking for much; it is a very simple operation to ascend most trees with a bit of gear and training. Besides, it is fun as hell to boot.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> I'm not martyring myself over this issue by any means Vaden. I think we could be saying, judging by your analogies, the same thing. I propose that some one hiring an arborist, like visiting a Physicians, can have certain expectations all under one heading.
> 
> I have no problems agreeing to disagree. Not for second do I propose to limit any one from what they can offer business wise or want to pursue for personnel growth. I do not advocate a club of secret hand shakes.
> 
> I would not expect every one who gets into a tree to "let loose the dogs of war." Rather, just that they can use many of the widely available systems for ascending if required. Not they have to, just that they could. It is not asking for much; it is a very simple operation to ascend most trees with a bit of gear and training. Besides, it is fun as hell to boot.



Actually, I always thought it was odd, that "arborist" was not a heading in the Yellow Pages. I think it may be now in a few places, and maybe showing up on the online version of Yellow Pages.

I'm not sure what the fix would be. "Tree Services" seems insufficient, unless it has a sub-heading of Certified Arborists, etc..

If Certified Arborist is in another part of the book, it's going to work out real bad for them because of what people look under.

COLOR SYMBOLS would be grand. There could be a few symbols in a legend near the heading, like a color tree symbol for tree care, and a color symbol for landscaping.

Then arborists could choose to pay a few extra bucks to have the symbols added in their ads if they offer several services.

Symbol for trees.
Symbol for spraying
Symbol for planting or landscaping
Symbol for consulting or planning.

Then people could visually scan for the symbol they need - a lot easier than reading the text.

About the ascending thing...

Yeah, that would be too much for me. Why? Because I enjoy hiking in the redwoods for fun, and standing in the small trees for trimming. Like that flowering cherry tree I posted a few pages back. So the point being, I don't work on huge trees, and I don't want the gear. So why should I buy gear I don't want? I hire climbing Certified Arborists and they have the gear. You tell me what is wrong with hiring totally capable people who have the gear - what's wrong with that?

And at least one would be glad to let me use his gear. But I don't ask, because I don't feel the urge. Personally, when an arborist comes to help, I much prefer to toss on my PPE and handle the ropes. May sound strange to some, but I enjoy the rope part. 

That's because one of us, or both, has other workers hucking the limbs, so switching to "groundie" for me is near recreational.


----------



## treesandsurf

I've heard rumors that the ISA is currently in the process of developing an online version of the Certified Arborist exam. Also heard it will be more expensive... 

jp


----------



## M.D. Vaden

treesandsurf said:


> I've heard rumors that the ISA is currently in the process of developing an online version of the Certified Arborist exam. Also heard it will be more expensive...
> 
> jp



Treesandsurf....

Drops in like a bolt of lightening from another web haven for tree care !!

Didn't notice your handle here before, but I may have been more into text than into user names and avatars.

Hey, I'd like to see how they do that securely.

I was on Oregon's landscape board for two terms, and it gaurds its test like Fort Knox.

They don't do it online, but do offer to send it to the Oregon Dept. of Motor Vehicles office for a $5 or $10 proctor fee. It's still on paper, but people don't have to drive to Salem.

But at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles office, there is a state employee monitoring the test room, and it can be kept clean of notes and most cheating.

An online test - say if I could tap into it right now from here - would enable me to read from my book, look up tree photos on my second computer or browser to answer ID, or even worse, have another arborist next to me to help with the questions.

If a test can't be proctored with overseers, it may well be a disaster. Probably why the Landscape Architects have a secure test too.


----------



## clearance

M.D. Vaden said:


> Treesandsurf....
> 
> Drops in like a bolt of lightening from another web haven for tree care !!
> 
> Didn't notice your handle here before, but I may have been more into text than into user names and avatars.
> 
> Hey, I'd like to see how they do that securely.
> 
> I was on Oregon's landscape board for two terms, and it gaurds its test like Fort Knox.
> 
> They don't do it online, but do offer to send it to the Oregon Dept. of Motor Vehicles office for a $5 or $10 proctor fee. It's still on paper, but people don't have to drive to Salem.
> 
> But at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles office, there is a state employee monitoring the test room, and it can be kept clean of notes and most cheating.
> 
> An online test - say if I could tap into it right now from here - would enable me to read from my book, look up tree photos on my second computer or browser to answer ID, or even worse, have another arborist next to me to help with the questions.
> 
> If a test can't be proctored with overseers, it may well be a disaster. Probably why the Landscape Architects have a secure test too.



I will not speak to the Oregon Landscape test, sounds like you guys run a tight ship and insist on high standards. We have beefed here M.D., but you do nice work, and are the man for nice gardens and estates.

As far as the ISA test online, based on some of the ISA people I have had the misfortune to deal with, I think that the ISA has nothing to worry about, if people cheat and get in, who will be able to tell the difference? Jeez, maybe some real treeguys could get in, I mean we are just dummies that run saws, after all, thats why we need the ISA guys to supervise us, we'd be lost without them.


----------



## Mitchell

*climbing*



M.D. Vaden said:


> About the ascending thing...
> 
> Yeah, that would be too much for me. Why? Because I enjoy hiking in the redwoods for fun, and standing in the small trees for trimming. Like that flowering cherry tree I posted a few pages back. So the point being, I don't work on huge trees, and I don't want the gear. So why should I buy gear I don't want? I hire climbing Certified Arborists and they have the gear. You tell me what is wrong with hiring totally capable people who have the gear - what's wrong with that?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried it climbing much Vaden. Baring serious vertigo, anyone that enjoys hiking the redwoods wood love to hike in them. Like I said, it is not hard, and the gear is relatively cheap. Hiring out the climbing job just make sense if you don't have the time or same skill set to complete the job. No one is getting rich from climbing after all.
> I would just rather have the title of arborist signify you could/have climbed a regular run of the mill tree when needed. It is just one part of tree care but in my mind it is integral.
> Cheers
Click to expand...


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> M.D. Vaden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried it climbing much Vaden. Baring serious vertigo, anyone that enjoys hiking the redwoods wood love to hike in them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> What got to me, was that I never got to feeling comfortable about my equipment. Always had this nagging nervousness. My climber friend wouldn't joke with me about it, but he did say that you have to trust your equipment.
> 
> Now it's got to be my feeling about equipment. Because oddly enough, I trust a tree.
> 
> If there is a Douglas fir growing in a field that's branched low, and branched thick, I have no problem recreation climbing to 100'. I despise being on extension ladders, even against a house. Yet I find trees much more stable, and when limbs go up like ladder work, I feel like a solid tree with solid wood is better than a ladder.
> 
> But I can't explain why, but I haven't accepted to trust the gear, even though it's trustworthy.
> 
> Also, I've annihilated my back. I'm nimble on my feet due to soccer days in my 20s, and still virtually hop and skip my way down a hiking trail. I can practically run the obstacle course across barnacled rocks at the ocean's edge. But when I have to bend and squeeze through spots, I'm rediculously inflexible. Add that to a heavy frame, and climbing would not be very recreational to me.
> 
> I mean, I almost have to lean to one side somedays to get my sock on, because I have to one hand it - frequently can't bend forward to pull a sock on.
> 
> Amazingly, I can still handsaw almost non-stop with a Silky or ARS, but every couple of months, there are a few days I have to use my right hand to lift my left hand onto the steering wheel.
> 
> Literally.
> 
> And the odd part is, with the aches and pains, I can still work like the Dikkens. It's just that I have to watch how I move - everything is deliberate movement.
> 
> I moved to southern Oregon hoping to quit, because of aches and pains. But what happened by doing sales - and I had no way to know - was the "not working" for a living hurt 3 times worse than working for a living. So in less than 6 weeks, I went back into business one more time and decided I could handle the pain if I pace myself. In fact, I don't think I'll want to or need to retire.
> 
> But now we have to get the "H" back up near Portland to where my niche can flourish rather than idle.
> 
> It's a bit of a pain, because I'd never have moved had I known, but I've never gone more than 2 weeks without work working since I was 19 years old, around 1979 or so. Just no way to have known what would develop.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mitchell

*arborist in my book*



M.D. Vaden said:


> Mitchell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> What got to me, was that I never got to feeling comfortable about my equipment. Always had this nagging nervousness. My climber friend wouldn't joke with me about it, but he did say that you have to trust your equipment.
> 
> Now it's got to be my feeling about equipment. Because oddly enough, I trust a tree.
> 
> If there is a Douglas fir growing in a field that's branched low, and branched thick, I have no problem recreation climbing to 100'. I despise being on extension ladders, even against a house. Yet I find trees much more stable, and when limbs go up like ladder work, I feel like a solid tree with solid wood is better than a ladder.
> 
> But I can't explain why, but I haven't accepted to trust the gear, even though it's trustworthy.
> 
> Also, I've annihilated my back. I'm nimble on my feet due to soccer and virtually hop and skip my way down a hiking trail. But when I have to bend and squeeze through spots, I'm rediculously inflexible. Add that to a heavy frame, and climbing would not be very recreational to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have done it and could do it then that qualifies in my book, thats all i'm asking. Some folks are suited to the removals some are not. If you had to you are capable of getting up and having a looksee.
> 
> You do learn to trust your gear; it takes time. You just have to experience the feeling of a side loaded biner slipping into its long axis a few times. Myself, I keep a recording running in my head that basically repeats "if my gear breaks or the tree fails I'm dead so why stress about it." No sane person is ever completely comfortable up high, that's normal. It is also normal for folks to feel more at ease with foliage around them then with out.
> 
> I hate ladders. In my other life as a professional fire fighter we use up to 45 foot ground ladders. They are massively strong [and heavy] but I have never trusted them like I trust a tree.
Click to expand...


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Mitchell said:


> M.D. Vaden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you have done it and could do it then that qualifies in my book, thats all i'm asking. Some folks are suited to the removals some are not. If you had to you are capable of getting up and having a looksee.
> 
> You do learn to trust your gear; it takes time. You just have to experience the feeling of a side loaded biner slipping into its long axis a few times. Myself, I keep a recording running in my head that basically repeats "if my gear breaks or the tree fails I'm dead so why stress about it." No sane person is ever completely comfortable up high, that's normal. It is also normal for folks to feel more at ease with foliage around them then with out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, it's been long enough, that I'd need to practically start from scratch.
> 
> Once we get to Portland area again and get the cash flow moving better, I may buy some climbing gear, but not for doing contracting of trees.
> 
> I know an arborist up there who can work with me.
> 
> It may be a work-out, but I would find it amusing at least. Recreational? Maybe once I'm up in the canopy.
> 
> See, I've tossed around the idea about replacing my 385 XP that I sold a few years ago with the same, or up to a 3120 XP "just because" - I can find a use, even if it's helping the other aborist buck-up something.
> 
> But considering how little it would be used, that $1100 could provide a decent investment in gear. I could also loan it to my better known arborist friends too - the few I trust.
> 
> So sure, I'm game for reaching the big canopy again.
Click to expand...


----------



## lxt

M.D, the term Arborculture as you have defined by use of dictionary sources in no way reflects what the definition for an arborist is!!

Arborculture is part of a larger spectrum pertaining to the green industry, The term/title Arborist is specific & the definition states what it is, what it does, etc..

I have read your posts & truely what I get from most of them is: you try to justify your title & its importance without being able to apply the main skills of which it stands for!!

You complain of aches, pains & nervousness.......guess what..we have all been there, are still there & will be there for some time, funny with all these symptoms you have.......you would "call me out" for a pruning battle!!

personally from what you say, I think you tried climbing, probably froze up!! Now you just stay on the ground cause you dont have the ability to do the job up there, your defense is "knowledge based" simply because your scared of heights!!!

even the other arbos agree that climbing is needed & they apply it!!, their defense is that a certification will propell the person forward ( I agree but the format must change IMO), but still engage in the climbing portions within the field not because of want(well maybe) but because of necessity!!

Ill bet this guy up 60ft & out on a limb caused more damage than good, rip`s on the cuts, stubs, improper cuts,etc...

your landscape work is good, stick with that!!

LXT...........


----------



## oldirty

lxt said:


> M.D,
> I have read your posts & truely what I get from most of them is: you try to justify your title & its importance without being able to apply the main skills of which it stands for!!
> 
> .



i could not have said it any better man.

well said lxt. well said


----------



## lxt

clearance said:


> I will not speak to the Oregon Landscape test, sounds like you guys run a tight ship and insist on high standards. We have beefed here M.D., but you do nice work, and are the man for nice gardens and estates.
> 
> As far as the ISA test online, based on some of the ISA people I have had the misfortune to deal with, I think that the ISA has nothing to worry about, if people cheat and get in, who will be able to tell the difference? Jeez, maybe some real treeguys could get in, I mean we are just dummies that run saws, after all, thats why we need the ISA guys to supervise us, we'd be lost without them.



Good post clearance!! he does do nice landscape work & should be proud!!

as far as the cheat & get in!! this is one thing that does need changed, I know Arbos that have lied about their "tree work" exp. & have gotten certification. I dont know if they have a better background check system now or what!!

My Daughter attends I.U.P took Biology, I met the professor(nice guy) he was kinda amazed a 38yr old was interested in the Biology of tree`s, long story short.....I would bet any kid currently starting/in college not having any Arborculture exp./or want thereof, could if they had the books for study take & PASS the ISA exam.

for some the fact that school & study is long ago & at age 50,55,60 these people have learned more in the field, by trial & error, asking questions, doing their job, etc... than any fresh(meaning 22-26yr old) CA has or will have for along time to come!!! why doesnt the ISA grandfather guys like this? even the federal govt did when they made the CDL mandatory!!

I think a guy with 25-30yrs exp. who can show his knowledge rather than sit a test should be given atleast this benefit, some of you have to remember in these guys era it was a noble/necessary thing for them to quit school, go work to provide, I know alot who only made it to 9th grade at best!! so the word TEST means study, which they havent done for as long as some of us are old!!

Its a shame these guys make it to work everday, first there last to leave, overachievers(spelling) in every sense, dont do drugs, never call off & most dont even like to take vacations!! hard workers & love their job!! these would be fine additions to to the CA title!!


LXT.................


----------



## M.D. Vaden

oldirty said:


> i could not have said it any better man.
> 
> well said lxt. well said



This justification issue really is when a handful of climbers try to elevate "ONE" of their skills that they do have, above many skills that they don't have, regarding how each "individual" tree fits and interacts in the ENTIRE landscape.

That's a smoke screen.

Not all climbers put up a smoke screen like that, because enough of them are satisfied in what they do, and like doing the part that they chose.

In other words, they realize that they don't have to redefine "arboriculture" for themselves.

Fortunately, the bulk of the industry has the situation under control, and realizes that a small tree is an "individual" tree and that a big tree is an "individual" tree. And that's arboriculture - caring for individual trees.

Now all we need to do, is to get a few like yourself, to pull-back into the orbit that keeps the industry on track.


----------



## treesandsurf

M.D. Vaden said:


> Hey, I'd like to see how they do that securely.



Mario, I was told that the test would have to be taken at a secure location (such as Sylvan Learning Center). Many secure exams in other industries and fields are taken online but are done at certain locations (such as universities) where there is a proctor who ensures that there is no funny business while taking the exam. Also, the computers are usually setup to limit access to information. 

This again is just a rumor....  

jp


----------



## M.D. Vaden

treesandsurf said:


> Mario, I was told that the test would have to be taken at a secure location (such as Sylvan Learning Center). Many secure exams in other industries and fields are taken online but are done at certain locations (such as universities) where there is a proctor who ensures that there is no funny business while taking the exam. Also, the computers are usually setup to limit access to information.
> 
> This again is just a rumor....
> 
> jp



If done like that, it could work well, although it would more than likely be an optional method.

Could save a lot of paper plus the need for protors to go through used materials making sure notes don't exist.

Personally, I like where a room has the people sitting at tables with flat surfaces exposed from almost every direction.

At least in a room, a proctor person can walk and see so much more.

I suppose if all depends on how a computer room is setup.


----------



## lxt

M.D. Vaden said:


> This justification issue really is when a handful of climbers try to elevate "ONE" of their skills that they do have, above many skills that they don't have, regarding how each "individual" tree fits and interacts in the ENTIRE landscape.
> 
> That's a smoke screen.
> 
> Not all climbers put up a smoke screen like that, because enough of them are satisfied in what they do, and like doing the part that they chose.
> 
> In other words, they realize that they don't have to redefine "arboriculture" for themselves.
> 
> Fortunately, the bulk of the industry has the situation under control, and realizes that a small tree is an "individual" tree and that a big tree is an "individual" tree. And that's arboriculture - caring for individual trees.
> 
> Now all we need to do, is to get a few like yourself, to pull-back into the orbit that keeps the industry on track.



Justification!!!! LOL. you are funny, you are the only one trying to justify not having a skill that in & of itself is a necessity(part of) but a necessity none the less to be a CA!! you`re right they are satisfied but also very knowlegeable, they just dont want associated with all the Certified BS.

Noone is redefining Arborculture, can you read? we are stating what the requirements of a CA should/use to be as opposed to what they currently are.

Bulk of industry in control??? LMFAO, they just dont feel the need to discuss this at the level we are!! why? cause as long as the ISA makes oodles of money from a designation they wont change a thing.....which in business sense is good...However the down side creates a lack of skill if the current trend stays in place, which by the way is a current problem!!!

what we need to do & my offer still stands, is to get your azz off the ground by more than 10ft, no orchard ladders!!! & put you in check with reality!!

*You try to dazzle us with your fancy jibberish!!!* once it is simplified, basically your saying......I cant climb, Im nervous about it, I manage what I cant do!! & will twist things, posts,terminology, etc.. & conjure up a reality to try to justify youself!!

M.D.........read your posts!! Man.....someone get him some gear & help him out, just diaper him up first it could be messy!!! Your like the 80yr old driving a corvette......what you have(on paper) looks good!!...You just dont have what it takes to perform...in the literal sense!!!!


LXT...................


----------



## Mitchell

*go for it*



M.D. Vaden said:


> Mitchell said:
> 
> 
> 
> For me, it's been long enough, that I'd need to practically start from scratch.
> 
> Once we get to Portland area again and get the cash flow moving better, I may buy some climbing gear, but not for doing contracting of trees.
> 
> I know an arborist up there who can work with me.
> 
> It may be a work-out, but I would find it amusing at least. Recreational? Maybe once I'm up in the canopy.
> 
> See, I've tossed around the idea about replacing my 385 XP that I sold a few years ago with the same, or up to a 3120 XP "just because" - I can find a use, even if it's helping the other aborist buck-up something.
> 
> But considering how little it would be used, that $1100 could provide a decent investment in gear. I could also loan it to my better known arborist friends too - the few I trust.
> 
> So sure, I'm game for reaching the big canopy again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You will not regret trying your hand at climbing. If your hiring experienced climbers they can help you with the basics. You will appreciate not having to call in a pro for simple operations that you can learn to deal with yourself.
> 
> It goes without saying you will be scared stiff at times, questioning what the frick you are doing, it is a curve everyone goes through. The overwhelming sensations keep you honest and it gets less all consuming in time. Pretty soon you'll be stopping to admire the view and wondering what life would be like not hanging out in trees.
> 
> LXT, No sense in bashing on him for giving it a go, after all he is attempting to achieve what we feel is needed in aboricultor. Perhaps he will to agree after time. It makes more sense to be supportive of CA that want to fulfill their credentials.
> 
> Keep us updated
Click to expand...


----------



## lxt

Mitchell said:


> M.D. Vaden said:
> 
> 
> 
> You will not regret trying your hand at climbing. If your hiring experienced climbers they can help you with the basics. You will appreciate not having to call in a pro for simple operations that you can learn to deal with yourself.
> 
> It goes without saying you will be scared stiff at times, questioning what the frick you are doing, it is a curve everyone goes through. The overwhelming sensations keep you honest and it gets less all consuming in time. Pretty soon you'll be stopping to admire the view and wondering what life would be like not hanging out in trees.
> 
> LXT, No sense in bashing on him for giving it a go, after all he is attempting to achieve what we feel is needed in aboricultor. Perhaps he will to agree after time. It makes more sense to be supportive of CA that want to fulfill their credentials.
> 
> Keep us updated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your right!! I guess when someone calls me out for a pruning battle...LOL, it just gets me going!! M.D......I wish you nothing but success & hopefully the attempt at climbing will work for you, Enjoy!!
> 
> LXT..........
Click to expand...


----------



## oldirty

lxt said:


> Mitchell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your right!! I guess when someone calls me out for a pruning battle...LOL, it just gets me going!! M.D......I wish you nothing but success & hopefully the attempt at climbing will work for you, Enjoy!!
> 
> LXT..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great way to end this thread.
Click to expand...


----------



## OTG BOSTON




----------



## ropensaddle

OTG BOSTON said:


> [/QUOT
> 
> :sword: :stupid:


----------



## M.D. Vaden

OTG BOSTON said:


>



Hey... this is one of the tallest threads in the index.

You saying you can't climb this thread any higher?


----------



## bigshea13

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/HTMLFILES/words words words.html



whos gonna argue with this? come on .....somebodys gonna. show us how stupid you really are.


----------



## clearance

According to his defintion I am not an arborist, thats A-ok, the word has become shrouded in controversy, and I care not to be lumped in with the mutts, althought there are good and bad. 
Alex Shigo was good man, like I said here before, he wrote a small book about utility work, I have it. He cared for trees, I care for reliable power, after safety, trees third. But he showed us how to do both, he knew that it wouldn't be pretty, but he wanted the power to stay on and the trees to live, ugly or not. 

He helped, he didn't hold his nose and criticize, all the while enjoying electricity. Not like the holier than thou culls who put down us utilty guys. Hypocrits, all of them, but not the late Dr.Shigo.


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## M.D. Vaden

clearance said:


> According to his defintion I am not an arborist, thats A-ok, the word has become shrouded in controversy, and I care not to be lumped in with the mutts, althought there are good and bad.
> Alex Shigo was good man, like I said here before, he wrote a small book about utility work, I have it. He cared for trees, I care for reliable power, after safety, trees third. But he showed us how to do both, he knew that it wouldn't be pretty, but he wanted the power to stay on and the trees to live, ugly or not.
> 
> He helped, he didn't hold his nose and criticize, all the while enjoying electricity. Not like the holier than thou culls who put down us utilty guys. Hypocrits, all of them, but not the late Dr.Shigo.



Hey... it wasn't exactly utility work, but sort-of. But a crew cleared trees along the highway from near our home to near downtown Jacksonville, Oregon.

First, the whole areas to the side and overhead were butchered with those shreading machines on hydraulically manipulated arms or booms.

But then this bucket truck came through and it was done - AGAIN - a few weeks later for both sides of the 8 miles or more, with chainsaw.

Actually, the guy did a fairly decent job.

Not sure if the first butchery was preliminary clearing or just the norm and too many people complained. Because I heard about it from people asking me if I had seen "what they did to those trees".


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## clearance

M.D. Vaden said:


> Hey... it wasn't exactly utility work, but sort-of. But a crew cleared trees along the highway from near our home to near downtown Jacksonville, Oregon.
> 
> First, the whole areas to the side and overhead were butchered with those shreading machines on hydraulically manipulated arms or booms.
> 
> But then this bucket truck came through and it was done - AGAIN - a few weeks later for both sides of the 8 miles or more, with chainsaw.
> 
> Actually, the guy did a fairly decent job.
> 
> Not sure if the first butchery was preliminary clearing or just the norm and too many people complained. Because I heard about it from people asking me if I had seen "what they did to those trees".



Maybe in the first instance you are refering to a "giraffe" type machine, a circular saw on a boom, controled from the cab. Those machines are not used here, never seen one, only pictures.
But I am sure they have been looked at by our utility, interesting. Now that would be funny, giraffes running here, thier work supervised by the utility guys, being ISA utility specialists and all. 
Sounds like the guy in the bucket cleaned up the stubs, different, for sure.


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## Sprig

MDV, I don't know but it sounds like they used the machine to clear away the foliage so the people in the buckets didn't have to fight through it to find what they needed to cut? Makes economical sense to me since they did take the time to actually get someone in there to do the final cuttings rather than pillage it to start with.
How did it turn out? Just wonderin'.



Serge


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## ropensaddle

They are used a lot here no stub cleanup here though!
Anyway utility row has a tough job balancing between
public and safety and proper clearance! I did that for
a long time and got my point across sometimes that
if you cut the fast growers back at a greater distance
a better looking and more healthy row will result!
The problem is exactly that clearance will tell you
they want a specified clearance usually ten foot!
A large tree standing a mere ten foot at trunk 
stripped to skyline even with laterals will look
terrible. Who takes the abuse of improper 
methods, clearance and people doing this job!
Now take the same line cut fast growers back to
twenty feet and replant Crapes and other slow 
growing plants in their place and I promise it will
look much better and be healthier. I have been
telling this since the eighties and even managed to
get permission on occasion and when implemented
the property owner always liked the result.


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## M.D. Vaden

Sprig said:


> MDV, I don't know but it sounds like they used the machine to clear away the foliage so the people in the buckets didn't have to fight through it to find what they needed to cut? Makes economical sense to me since they did take the time to actually get someone in there to do the final cuttings rather than pillage it to start with.
> How did it turn out? Just wonderin'.
> 
> 
> 
> Serge



Aside from a few cuts, 95% of it looks great, especially for roadside.

This is not the machine they used for the first stage, but I just found this one and found it amusing...

http://www.diamondmowers.com/Products/Tripleblade.cfm

If I have time, I may take a few images along the highway to show how reasonable it is.

The initial machine on a boom may have been a circular moving blade like a giant rotary mower, or flail type, becasue the branches were shredded rather than cut.

Later, when the climber was out there, everything looked professional for a tree pruner. I've seen city guys in Hillsboro, Oregon, power pole prune without safety goggles. But this guy down here had all the right PPE on. Gloves, hearing protectors, face shield, etc., while using the chainsaw.

I think it was an Oregon Dept. of Transportation worker - ODOT.


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## treeseer

The Energizer bunny of threads...

lxt, the costs I quoted 3 pages ago were accurate, maybe high because a guy who has "done it all and then some" would not need the study guide. CEU's are easy for nonmembers to get and to keep track of, CHEAP. Your alibis are based on bs rumors.

Time to put up or shut up re the test. :lifter:

I can climb as high and as wide as anyone here, and cut and rig well enough, though I'm old enough to be granddaddy to some of you. BFD. That makes me a tree worker. My other skills make me closer to a complete arborist, but I'll never know it all. That's what makes it fun.

The BCMA test is on computers but well proctored. If the CA goes that route, great!

Ladders are good tools, and clearance is an outstanding individual for standing up for standards when unqualified supervisors utter bs. We need more guys who speak out for what they know is right.


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## M.D. Vaden

Now, this is the way you "doctor" an image to exaggerate your skills - see me leaning against this huge tree again? Must of climbed it - right?


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## OTG BOSTON

mattfr12 said:


> Ive been in the tree care buisness for a good while now and am looking into becoming certified i live in PA and work for Bartlett Tree Experts, the other arborists thier told me you have to work under an Arborist for 3 years before you can get certified is this true? Also can you take the test online and where to get study materials.





M.D. Vaden said:


> Hey... this is one of the tallest threads in the index.
> 
> You saying you can't climb this thread any higher?



I'll go all the way if need be, but I had to quote the original post to remind you guys what the original questions were.

If I were this kid I'd run from my keyboard and never post here again.......


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## OTG BOSTON

clearance said:


> Driving around in a city pickup, looking at trees, getting coffee, lying to residents about trees, that ain't work, its making puppies.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> If this arguement were a football game I'd answer all this trash talking with a simple "scoreboard beeyotch" but it isn't a game so I'll answer with "paycheck beyotch"


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## bigshea13

:computer2: 


hes probably reconsidering. he may be thinking of becoming a mediator.


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## lxt

OTG BOSTON said:


> I'll go all the way if need be, but I had to quote the original post to remind you guys what the original questions were.
> 
> If I were this kid I'd run from my keyboard and never post here again.......




Actually, I have talked to Matt on a couple occasions, talked about gettin together to do some tree work, After which I hope he will post & give a report.

Treeseer, I have explained what I meant by the comment you posted & in typical fashion you have distorted it!! Read my response its in here somewhere!!

I called the ISA & downloaded the membership application, I would fall under professional at $105.00 chapter dues for Pen-Del $45.00, the Study guide when I bought it was $89.00, member test $125.00/ nonmember $225.00

Im thinking membership with chapter would be a more cost effective way to go!! Elise.....if I spelled that right is who I talked to...very nice Lady!!

So Treeseer......Im thinking Ill take this test....I wanna see if what you say is true!! If it is....when Im down in Apex (have friends there) Ill owe you one!! 

What a thread...............it is the energizer bunny!!

LXT...............


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## treeseer

lxt said:


> Im thinking membership with chapter would be a more cost effective way to go!! Elise.....if I spelled that right is who I talked to...very nice Lady!!


Here's the schedule for their meeting coming up. Rex Bastian, Bill Elmendorf etc. are very knowledgeable. http://www.penndelisa.org/downloads/Shade Tree Symposium 2008 Brochure.pdf


> So Treeseer......Im thinking Ill take this test....I wanna see if what you say is true!! If it is....when Im down in Apex (have friends there) Ill owe you one!! .


Come on down, first one will be on me!


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## M.D. Vaden

So, almost on the verge of starting a separate thread about what aborists offered, I figured I'd just ask here.

Can't add a poll though, so may start a separate thread later.

The poll idea came to mind after some arborists commented about climbing to be an arborist.

*Arboriculture is the selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants and the study of how they grow and respond to cultural practices and the environment.*

If we utilize that description of arboriculture, what facets do you offer, or not offer? What do you study or not study. What's your niche, and what do you omit?

Do you climb?
Do you include ground level pruning and shrubs?
Do you study the environment: both lawn, small plants and soil?
Do you apply pesticides?
Do you select and plant trees?
Do you consult for trees?
Do you consult for trees in the full landscape?

The same things; do you omit them?

How complete, or how limited is your service based on the description provided above for aboriculture.

With Vines, Shrubs and Trees, what percentage of them do you understand the arboriculture needs for.

Which part do you like working with best?


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## Chris Francis

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> recently contacted ISA about reupping my arborist certification. They have a drive going for new members, a real, inexpensive price. Then I beleive the yearly membership is based on a percentage of the company gross. Does anyone know the details? Not cheap anymore ?



Not true. That sounds like TCIA. ISA is a flat fee no matter how much the company grosses.

As for the never-ending argument that Certified Arborists should be required to climb, are all jack-wagons, and don't know squat... there is much more to arboriculture than pruning and removing trees. But for those aspects of arboriculture, someone please show me some unsafe or improper techniques in the Certified Arborist Study Guide, the ANSI Standards, or the ISA Best Management Practices because that is where the questions for that exam come from. ISA is rooted in science. And for the professors and book writers, I'm sure there is a hack somewhere, but most of them are basing their writings off scientific studies. I have learned more about pruning and planting from Ed Gilman than I could learn with 3,000 years of experience; and I could care less if he has ever climbed or planted a tree personally.


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