# Trying Split tail



## Illini_tree (Jun 27, 2011)

So I got some new rope and decide to come into the 21st century and try using a split tail. Historically I have clove hitched my line to the caribiner, and tied my blakes with the tail leaving one caribiner on my bridge. With the split tail I now have 2 biners on my bridge and while hip thrusting I don't like the way the biners get caught on one another. Can I put the split tail and my climbing line in one biner or is that a bad idea? Here is a picture of the rig. Thanks for any input.

View attachment 188640


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## Appalachian (Jun 27, 2011)

I have a different system but often wondered the same thing.

I climb on a closed system VT with the eye of my rope on the same carabiner as the micro pulley and the two eyes of the friction hitch. It makes for a somewhat crowded biner but I like the simplicity and the lack of clanking.

I got a new steel HMS biner just to offset any potential problems with loading but have gone back to my Petzl William aluminum cause I like it better.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 27, 2011)

Im not sure but f you did you would be defeating part of the advantage of the split tail. As it sits you can simply unclip to advance or get around obstacles. If you put them on one you would have to untie to accomplish the same. Plus you can add a pully to that beener to aid in tending slack which I dont know if you could on one beener.


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## Illini_tree (Jun 27, 2011)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Im not sure but f you did you would be defeating part of the advantage of the split tail. As it sits you can simply unclip to advance or get around obstacles. If you put them on one you would have to untie to accomplish the same. Plus you can add a pully to that beener to aid in tending slack which I dont know if you could on one beener.


 

True, I didnt think about defeating the purpose. Can I clip my split tail biner into the main biner to keep them from overlapping? If you know what I mean, maybe i can take a picture tonight.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 27, 2011)

The top beener puts quite a bit of stress on your rope. It will flatten it out over time and damage the fibers. If you use an eyelet to support the rope and help prevent it from being crushed it may be better. Or maybe a captured eye beener for your rope and beener for split tail that way the rope is protected.


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## Blakesmaster (Jun 27, 2011)

If that's the way you terminate your climbing line I say go for it. No need for two biners and you wouldn't be defeating the purpose as long as you make sure your climb line is closer to the gate than your split tail eye. Open the biner, slide your line out and huff it up to the next crotch. Never saw anyone terminate their climbline that way though. I used to use a scaffold knot before switching to a spliced eye which would have involved untying the scaffold knot. Next thing you know you'll be going serious new school with a set up like this.


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## ozzy42 (Jun 27, 2011)

Illini_tree said:


> So I got some new rope and decide to come into the 21st century and try using a split tail. Historically I have clove hitched my line to the caribiner, and tied my blakes with the tail leaving one caribiner on my bridge. With the split tail I now have 2 biners on my bridge and while hip thrusting I don't like the way the biners get caught on one another. Can I put the split tail and my climbing line in one biner or is that a bad idea? Here is a picture of the rig. Thanks for any input.
> 
> View attachment 188640


 
I see you are a relatively new member here.Welcome to AS BTW.
That figure 8 knot is not a good termination knot if using a biner.It is not a cinching knot therefore it should not be used on a biner as it could easily move and load the gate.


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## Illini_tree (Jun 27, 2011)

ozzy42 said:


> I see you are a relatively new member here.Welcome to AS BTW.
> That figure 8 knot is not a good termination knot if using a biner.It is not a cinching knot therefore it should not be used on a biner as it could easily move and load the gate.



Ok, What would you recommend? Like I said Previously I used a clove and hitched the tail, but a clove didn't seem like a good idea for an end line knot. I use the figure 8 extensively in the fire service, so it seemed like a good choice, but I see your point.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 27, 2011)

*good call*

page 19 on the below link for termination knots

Climbing Guide PDF need adobe to view


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## ozzy42 (Jun 27, 2011)

I use a bowline with a yosemite tie off,which is also incorrect to use with a biner.I terminate to a ropesnap where there is no chance of loading the gate with my climbline.
Most here prefer a biner and a bunt,anchor,or double fishermens knot.

Type in termination knot in the search box.It has been discussed in depth here many times.





Sorry SOM I didn't see you post.


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## RacerX (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with ozzy also. The rope should cinch down tightly onto the carabiner. I use a Buntline hitch. Easy to tie, very compact and is resistant to loosening even when the rope is flexed. If you look closely you'll see that the Buntline hitch is a variant of the clove hitch.






Buntline Hitch | How to tie a Buntline Hitch | Boating Knots


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## Illini_tree (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for the input. I will take any info or criticism I can get if it keeps me safe. I am going to play around with it a bit more tonight. I will take more pics.


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## RacerX (Jun 27, 2011)

Illini_tree said:


> Thanks to everyone for the input. I will take any info or criticism I can get if it keeps me safe. I am going to play around with it a bit more tonight. I will take more pics.


 

Photo's always help. :msp_wink:


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## Tree Pig (Jun 27, 2011)

ozzy42 said:


> I use a bowline with a yosemite tie off,which is also incorrect to use with a biner.I terminate to a ropesnap where there is no chance of loading the gate with my climbline.
> Most here prefer a biner and a bunt,anchor,or double fishermens knot.
> 
> Type in termination knot in the search box.It has been discussed in depth here many times.
> ...


 
No sweat Oz I think we both posted at the same time.


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## pdqdl (Jun 27, 2011)

If attaching to a carabiner, I prefer a double or triple over-hand knot [or scaffold knot, or fisherman's knot,...] It slides right off a carabiner and pulls out easily. HUGE mistake to tie onto a snap or any other solid metal ring, because it is nearly impossible to untie.

For safety snaps with a solid ring for an attachment point, a bunt-line hitch or anchor hitch will do nicely. Of those two, the anchor hitch is easier to untie, and either can be secured better with stopper knots if you don't trust them.


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## Illini_tree (Jun 27, 2011)

Well I didn't get any pictures but I did go up a bit tonight with a scaffold knot. Worked nice. I still don't like the way my split tail biner moves down my rope bridge as I thrust up. Sometimes gets stuck on the rubber grommets sometimes it gets half looped over the biner on my climbing line and I don't like that at all.


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## 046 (Jun 27, 2011)

even though a few folks still use it... forget buntline hitch for a lifeline termination knot. 

one of the more common ways for climbers to fall is lifeline knot failure. IMHO the ONLY termination knot that doesn't need a backup knot... is the triple fisherman


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## pdqdl (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree, that's about the best there is. Furthermore, it tails in a better direction than the others, so it stays out of the way. Strongest, too.



Of course I'm just poking you in the ribs here, but doesn't all that whipping qualify as a backup/stopper? :sword:


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## 046 (Jun 28, 2011)

yup all the whipping does indeed act like a stopper... but it's not really necessary

main thing I wanted to get across is the importance of tying a pretty knot. 
always taking time to set your knot properly is more than strength. 

making a knot instantly recognizable if it's tied correctly could save your life.


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## tree md (Jun 28, 2011)

I am with 046, the double fisherman's/scaffold knot is the only knot I will use for life support anymore. When I started out everyone was using a bowline tied to a snap with about 6' of tail to tie a blake's, prussic, what have you. It has been proven that a bowline is more likely to roll out/side load.


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## chad556 (Jun 28, 2011)

Here is how I tie in. I use the anchor hitch for line termination with an XT friction hitch and micropulley for my split tail. I like the anchor hitch because it unties easily and it doesnt force the rope to bend in a very tight radius at all compared to other termination knots. I also like the fact that the tail sticks out sideways instead of straight up. Its personal preference but i feel like it has less of a chance of interfering with my hitch if the tail is shooting out to the side(though in 046's method the tail is whipped and wouldnt get in the way at all anyways). And like any termination knot when tied, dressed and set _correctly_ there is absolutely no way for them to roll out. I usually only have about 2-4" of tail coming out of the anchor hitch BTW forgive the picture it was the best one I had.

As for tying in a system that has only one carabiner on the saddle, I have tried and failed at that many times. One sure option would be to get a hitch climber pulley, never used one but its on my wishlist for the same reasons you mentioned. Maybe if you somehow tethered your two carabiners together you would eliminate the ability of your split tail carabiner to slide around as much, thereby leading to better performance. There are literally thousands of options to tie in the way your thinking so don't be afraid to experiment and have fun. Once you come up with something that works post a picture of it here if your not sure about it and we'll help you out.


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## Illini_tree (Jun 28, 2011)

So since my saddle (weaver cougar with updates) has a rope bridge. I am thinking about ordering a micro pulley with the 3 holes to put on my bridge. Then I can put my climb line biner in one hole and split tail in another. Should hold my split tail biner in place. And still have a 3rd hole for rescue 8 biner for repelling out. What you guys think?


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## tree md (Jun 28, 2011)

I'll tell ya, I never liked climbing with two biners crowding my harness/bridge. And I'm not a big fan of tying/untying termination knots. I went to spliced eyes on my climbing lines and spliced eye to eye prussic cords. I use one biner and when I need to recrotch I just slip the eye of my climbing line off the biner and just throw it around the next crotch/TIP. I did away with the micro pulley and went to a boat swivel snap for slack tending and it works great. Simple, light weight and very functional.


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## RacerX (Jun 28, 2011)

Illini_tree said:


> So since my saddle (weaver cougar with updates) has a rope bridge. I am thinking about ordering a micro pulley with the 3 holes to put on my bridge. Then I can put my climb line biner in one hole and split tail in another. Should hold my split tail biner in place. And still have a 3rd hole for rescue 8 biner for repelling out. What you guys think?


 

IMO if you're going to buy a hitch climber pulley then the best setup is the one recommended by it inventors the TreeMagineers. You can still use the third hole for an additional rope in a two TIP configuration. This also only puts one carabiner on the bridge.


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## Appalachian (Jun 28, 2011)

tree md said:


> I'll tell ya, I never liked climbing with two biners crowding my harness/bridge. And I'm not a big fan of tying/untying termination knots. I went to spliced eyes on my climbing lines and spliced eye to eye prussic cords. I use one biner and when I need to recrotch I just slip the eye of my climbing line off the biner and just throw it around the next crotch/TIP. I did away with the micro pulley and went to a boat swivel snap for slack tending and it works great. Simple, light weight and very functional.


 
Thanks for bringing it back to the topic of -is it cool to attach everything on one biner? Thats what brought me to this thread. I load my biner full FYI. Rope eye, friction hitch spliced eyes and a Micropulley. I just like the simplicity. Is that a sin?


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## pdqdl (Jun 30, 2011)

chad556 said:


> Here is how I tie in. I use the anchor hitch for line termination ...


 
I just noticed something about structure of the anchor hitch: it is actually just a double-overhand knot tied down to a snap/carrabiner.

In the case of the scaffold knot, it is the same knot (double overhand knot) tied to itself with the snap/carrabiner nestled in the bight going back to itself.

So...our two favorite termination knots actually have almost identical architecture.


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## abouttrees (Jul 1, 2011)

Here's a variation we've been messing around with for a while. It self tends amazingly well and is very light and easy to use, still needs a little 
tweaking here and there but I reckon it could be a winner it grabs reliably and gives only a few cm sit back when you load it. (ignore the dodgy climbing line, it's an of-cut)View attachment 189095


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## abouttrees (Jul 1, 2011)

Sorry I'm having trouble attaching photos to my posts, it's there just click on the link


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## RacerX (Jul 1, 2011)

That rope looks pretty beat up.


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## chad556 (Jul 1, 2011)

abouttrees said:


> Here's a variation we've been messing around with for a while. It self tends amazingly well and is very light and easy to use, still needs a little
> tweaking here and there but I reckon it could be a winner it grabs reliably and gives only a few cm sit back when you load it. (ignore the dodgy climbing line, it's an of-cut)View attachment 189095


 
Looks like a VT with a ring instead of a second braid? Interesting.


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## tree md (Jul 1, 2011)

Yep, looks pretty slick. A little similar to the boat swivel snap that I use to tend slack.


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## abouttrees (Jul 3, 2011)

chad556 said:


> Looks like a VT with a ring instead of a second braid? Interesting.


 
Basically that's what it is, and please don't worry, like I said it's a crappy bit off off cut rope, tried climbing using it on Yale Magma rope and it 
works a dream. Try it out!!


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