# Copper Sulphate to kill roots?



## lego1970

Anybody have any experience with using copper sulphate to kill roots growing in a sewer line?

If so,
How much did you use per application?
How many applications did you apply?
Was there any long lasting negative impact on the surrounding trees?


Thanks.


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## pdqdl

Here is the whole story on what/how to do the job:

How to use copper sulfate to clear tree roots


Be careful with copper sulfate: it is also a very effective chemical cautery for cuts. Get some in a scratch or your eyes, and you will feel like a slug in a salt bowl.


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## lego1970

Slug in a salt bowl.....:hmm3grin2orange: Thanks for the link and word of caution.


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## pdqdl

I forgot to add some important info to the article:

Do the treatment at night, long after everyone takes their shower/flushes the toilet, etc. This will let you use less product with better results because the line is not getting flushed.


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## sgreanbeans

Could someone explain the process and the need of this. Something I have not come across before, just curious!
I get that it is used to clear pipe, what is the effect on the Tree?


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## John Paul Sanborn

It jus kills the root locally, so there is always a mass near the cracked pipe that will re-infiltrate.

The problem stems from poorly installed clay tile that leaks and puts a an aerated plume of nutrient rich water in the soil. The aerated part of the statement is most important, because tree roots are aerobic and aerotropic. They need free 02 in the soil and will grow towards it.

So the copper treatment is often repeated once or twice a growing season, where routing and lining the sewer lateral would be a pricey, but long term fix.


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## ATH

John Paul Sanborn said:


> It jus kills the root locally, so there is always a mass near the cracked pipe that will re-infiltrate..........



That is what I always want people to know. Don't blame it on the trees. They won't open up a sealed line, only take advantage of an existing crack. So...you get the roots out, what do you have now? A leaky line. Replace the line (or at least a section of it).


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## Rookie1

The house I grew up in is over 100 years old and has large Sycamores in the yard. In the basement next to a cleanout cap is a mason jar full of copper sulfate with a notecard glued to it. The notecard has the dates the coppersulfate was added. I cant remember the years but the previous owners did it for a long time and the trees are healthy.


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## pdqdl

ATH said:


> That is what I always want people to know. Don't blame it on the trees. They won't open up a sealed line, only take advantage of an existing crack. So...you get the roots out, what do you have now? A leaky line. Replace the line (or at least a section of it).



Older sewer systems were never sealed, they were made of clay tiles. The older variety of these did not even have a rubber o-ring. They were often made of hexagonal tiles one foot long that were fitted together end to end and then sealed with a masonry grout. 

Of course they leaked, especially after 50 years underground.


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## pdqdl

The copper sulfate will NEVER settle in the septic tank. It is water soluble, and will continue to dilute out in the ongoing solution. Even buried in the sludge in the bottom it will slowly diffuse out into the effluent.


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## John Paul Sanborn

there is also the issue as to how professionlly the lateral was installed. The drain-tile on my parents 50s era ranch were crushed by the heavy clay backfill dropped on them, I've heard of sewer laterals with the same problem. Also if not bedded properly, when in dynmaic soils, they can move enough to separate.


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## pdqdl

The OSU document encourages flushing solid crystals, rather than dissolving them prior to flushing. Of course they will settle when they get to the septic tank: they are "heavier than water" solids. They sink. Then they dissolve away. I was incorrect in stating that they will settle in the tank. A better choice of words would be to say that "They will never settle permanently...".

Just because they settle into the septic tank does not mean that they will remain there. Since they don't remain in the tank because of dissolution, they must go on to the leach field. 

It isn't anything to worry about, as this practice has been going on for many years. I never heard of any problems from it, although modern commerce seems to have made copper sulfate a difficult thing to buy. I have seen commercial preparations for maintaining septic systems (at a higher price $$) that made all sorts of claims that were just copper sulfate re-packaged.


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## lego1970

I found a couple more articles doing a google search and one fellow mentioned how he applied the copper sulphate by boring 2" dia holes 
above the pipes, then pouring the copper sulphate into the holes with water
so the copper sulphate leaches out and kills the roots above the line. His theory was that if you just put it down the line it may not either reach or have time to take affect on the root system. 

The reason I even ask this question in the first place is I aquired a new job working for the City of Raytown Missouri as a maintenance worker (since most of my background has been around trucking and heavy equipment). They just bought a new water jet/vacuum truck and they have this one attachement on the truck that cuts the roots that grow in the lines. Personaly I never knew anything about roots in sewer lines but I guess it's a major problem, and major expense, especially in older city with ageing sewer lines. Since also having a tree worker background I thought it would be neat to possibly get with the city Arborist and see if we could do some experiments on the lines that are on city property. The jet/vacuum as well as the TV truck can do both visual inspection via camera and pinpoint the exact above ground location of where roots are growing into the pipe. 

Here are a few my ideas for root control in sewerlines. They are not well thought out and just some off the wall stuff floating in my head. I thought it would be fun if I could convince the City to do some informal studies and experiments. 

1. Copper Sulphate, both thru the soil leaching method, and thru the pipeline.
2. Using a fungicide to end the mycorrhizae.
3. Somehow compacting the soil around the pipes without damaging the pipes.
4. Using high electrical amperage to destroy the roots. 

Thanks again for all the input.


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## pdqdl

lego1970 said:


> My thoughts:
> 1. Copper Sulphate, both thru the soil leaching method [Not practical. Boring will involve major surface damage and repair, as well as huge risk to other utilities.], and thru the pipeline [Cheap and easy. This will not probably be practical for city sewer lines, as they will be continuously flowing. Reaching the necessary concentration of CuSO4 to be effective will be difficult].
> 2. Using a fungicide to end the mycorrhizae. [What will be the point? They mycorrhizea will not be plugging up the sewers.]
> 
> 3. Somehow compacting the soil around the pipes without damaging the pipes. [The only way to compact around the pipes would be to excavate and then compact. At that point, you might as well replace the old lines. BTW: the soil was probably compacted when the line was laid. Any further compaction would likely involve replacing the soil with something more readily compacted.]
> 
> 4. Using high electrical amperage to destroy the roots. [That will never happen. Not even considering the electrocution risk to the population from introducing high voltage to the bottom of their toilets, there are explosive gases commonly found in sewer lines. Relatively harmless until you light them with a massive electric discharge. Don't even suggest it, the engineers will think you are a nut!]
> 
> Thanks again for all the input.



My thoughts in dark red.


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## lego1970

pdqdl said:


> My thoughts in dark red.




As you know I respect and enjoy your comments, but this was just some stuff I threw out there.

1. I'm sure cities have studied and weighed the option of using copper sulphate to control roots in pipelines, but I'm curious as to what method they either used or studied to bring them to a conclusion and what if any direct experience anybody on this website has on the subject.

2. I've never read or done any experimentation on the importance of the symbiotic relationship between fungus and roots, so I wonder what would happen to one if you cut off the other.

3. Again the compaction of soil, I've never read any articles or studies on the subject so I was curious what if anything could be done to control roots using that tactic.

4. Yet again, I don't know much or have ever read any studies on the subject, but my thinking is that currant could be applied to destroy the roots not only in the pipe but several feet beyond the pipe. I don't how much risk is envolved because I don't know how much would be needed to destroy enough roots, nor do I know how much would be needed to be safe for use. I do "think" and only think that there is enough below ground pipe (at the house)to safely ground out the currant that could travel upstream in the pipe before entering the house and likewise I think you could use enough currant to destroy the vascular system in the root to send it back a couple feet from the pipe while at the same time the currant would be grounded out long before damaging other roots or parts of the tree. As far as sparks go, the cutting tool they currantly use is a bunch of chains that spins violently around and I'm sure there are hot sparks being flung around from the chains smacking each other, besides you could send the the rover down there to sample the air and ventilate prior to useing an electrical device. After all they use internal welders inside petroleum pipes, so I'm sure it can be done. On the flip side to ventilation, if there is not enough oxygen inside the pipe it wouldn't cause a fire which I believe is how they are able to weld inside pipelines. Any engineer that would say I'm nuts for throwing out wild suggestions isn't a very good engineer. Instead a good engineer keeps an open mind to suggestions or ideas, and will only point out faults. I know two good engineers, one is a mechanical engineer for a bridge contractor, and the other is a chemical engineer for Cargill and both are very laid back individuals that are not full of themselves. Like you said it's risky and might not be effective towards root control, however if 200 years ago you told somebody that you wanted to use the forces behind a lightning strike to fuse metal together while holding the electrical fusing device, most would of said your nuts, however people like Benjiman Franklin would of paused and thought about it and today we have electrical welders because of those who questioned with reason. My guess and is only a guess, is that useing high amperage/ low voltage should destroy the roots without causing further lateral damage aside from the possibility of the root swelling and blowing out part of the pipe where the root has entered while keeping the public just as safe as they are driving under powerlines or leaning a up against a guy wire that is has very little insulation between it and the powerlines only a couple feet away. 


Your right in that a city might not fund nor be able to gain federal dollars for a study that is so risky to both city dollars or the safety of the public, but I bet in a controlled enviroment with the right funding source a study could be done on the subject. If you ever read those studies from ISA urban arborist news magazine, they seems to be able to come up with the money to do studies on a wide variety of subjects.


Again, just a thought and I was curious what direct experience others have had on the subject.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Many cities are putting fiberglass/epoxy liners in older sewer lines.







I've seen them installing these in the old sections of Milwaukee. The snake them in through the junction wells and inflate with a big blower. Not sure if it is hot air that causes the reaction or what, it looks pretty slick.

I've seen them out with the big routers ahead of the liner crews, some bad breaks they dig out and fix first. They find those with little robotic cameras


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## pdqdl

I'm sorry; you seem to have taken my comments negatively. I didn't mean to sound critical. You said:



lego1970 said:


> ...that currant could be applied to destroy the roots not only in the pipe but several feet beyond the pipe. I don't how much risk is envolved because I don't know how much would be needed to destroy enough roots, nor do I know how much would be needed to be safe for use. I do "think" and only think that there is enough below ground pipe (at the house)to safely ground out the currant that could travel upstream in the pipe before entering the house and likewise I think you could use enough currant to destroy the vascular system in the root to send it back a couple feet from the pipe while at the same time the currant would be grounded out long before damaging other roots or parts of the tree. As far as sparks go, the cutting tool they currantly use is a bunch of chains that spins violently around and I'm sure there are hot sparks being flung around from the chains smacking each other, besides you could send the the rover down there to sample the air and ventilate prior to useing an electrical device. After all they use internal welders inside petroleum pipes, so I'm sure it can be done. On the flip side to ventilation, if there is not enough oxygen inside the pipe it wouldn't cause a fire which I believe is how they are able to weld inside pipelines. Any engineer that would say I'm nuts for throwing out wild suggestions isn't a very good engineer. Instead a good engineer keeps an open mind to suggestions or ideas, and will only point out faults. I know two good engineers, one is a mechanical engineer for a bridge contractor, and the other is a chemical engineer for Cargill and both are very laid back individuals that are not full of themselves. Like you said it's risky and might not be effective towards root control, however if 200 years ago you told somebody that you wanted to use the forces behind a lightning strike to fuse metal together while holding the electrical fusing device, most would of said your nuts, however people like Benjiman Franklin would of paused and thought about it and today we have electrical welders because of those who questioned with reason. My guess and is only a guess, is that useing high amperage/ low voltage should destroy the roots without causing further lateral damage aside from the possibility of the root swelling and blowing out part of the pipe where the root has entered while keeping the public just as safe as they are driving under powerlines or leaning a up against a guy wire that is has very little insulation between it and the powerlines only a couple feet away.
> ...



Electricity flows from one area of higher voltage into another area of lower voltage. You are pretty much correct in assuming that there is lots of opportunity for "grounding out" to occur in the earth surrounding an underground pipe, particularly when in the presence of leaking sewer water (certainly a conductive mixture!). 

The real problem with electrocuting tree roots is that electricity follows the path of least resistance in it's trip to locations with lower voltage (EMF: ElectroMotive Force). You don't really know whether an electric discharge would enter and kill the offending roots, or if you would just be melting topsoil and making some really bad smelling steam. The current is likely to follow the water stream primarily to ground in a radiating zone of gradually reducing voltage. 

Since trees seem to tolerate huge amounts of electricity without suffering much damage, it seems like an unlikely scenario for root pruning. How many times have you seen tree branches rubbing primary wires without hurting the trees? How about lightning strikes! I have seen trees hit so hard that the bark is blown off in a path to ground, and the tree recovers pretty well. These examples are in situations where the current would not be diffused into the surrounding earth, and the primary damage to the tree seems to be from vaporization of plants tissue from the heat. Again, the effects of heat would be minimized in an underground setting.

We should presume, then, that it would take a really big electric supply with high voltage and high amperage to toast the roots, eh? 

Then let us consider how difficult it is to control where that voltage and current is going. A possible scenario: your Mega-zapper 7000 subterranean root pruner is going down the sewer line and gets to a big root obstruction 350 feet downstream. Those roots are feeding into a crack in the top of the sewer pipe, and they are dipping freely into the juices. Unfortunately, it is a hot, dry summer, and the earth is parched dry. Mrs. Jones has just turned on the sprinkler for the kids to play in, and little Bobby Jones runs up to the tree in his bare feet, in the freshly sprinkled grass and leans against the tree...at the same moment your Mega-zapper 7000 delivers 7KV to the roots 15 feet below. 7Kv travels up the nice juicy roots at nearly no loss of voltage into the trunk of the tree, and begins radiating a lethal dose of gradually reducing voltage away from the trunk. Little Bobby falls down electrocuted, and you have a big problem.

Of course that is a purely hypothetical situation, but I imagine the probability of having those exact problems would preclude the use of electricity in any root pruning scenario.

Your comments about welding and the considerations for 200 years ago are certainly valid. It is the thinkers and adventurers who make history. Unfortunately, welding uses a pretty low (safe!) voltage that lacks the capacity to readily hurt individuals. This same trait that enables safety for humans would similarly protect trees from damage until you upped the voltage to something extremely dangerous for people.

Other considerations:
Explosions HAVE occurred as a result of pipe auguring operations. They are very rare, but they do happen. Generally, there are not enough explosive gases to be a problem. And sparks from the auguring operation are pretty uncommon due to the cooling effect of the water plugged up in the pipe. I think that deliberately introducing an electric arc would be a BAD idea.

I was auguring out a totally obstructed sewer line once. I eventually failed, and was forced to dig up the line. There were so many tree roots, the line was completely dry. It was so dry in that line, it was dusty when I pulled the stuff out, yet it was only 15 feet downstream from a thick wet sewage sludge. The sewer line was built with 5' long, 6" ID clay tiles, sealed with a rubber o-ring at each bell. _An electric arc could have set the whole mess on fire and would have burned them out, but it would never have gotten a ground through a dry ceramic pipe._

By the way, when I dug up that dry section of pipe, the ground was so hard and compacted the Case 580 backhoe I borrowed could barely touch it. The black clay underneath my shed was so compacted and dry it was almost like solid shale. It took several hours to dig one little hole to expose the pipe. So adding compaction would not have been a benefit either.

Just my thoughts and some of my experiences. It is not my intention to sound like I am being critical, I just don't think the fry 'em approach will work with tree roots. Keep thinking of new ideas and throwing out the losers. You will get a winner eventually. If it is any consolation, I'm not sure that I have had any "winner" ideas myself.


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## Ekka

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Many cities are putting fiberglass/epoxy liners in older sewer lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen them installing these in the old sections of Milwaukee. The snake them in through the junction wells and inflate with a big blower. Not sure if it is hot air that causes the reaction or what, it looks pretty slick.
> 
> I've seen them out with the big routers ahead of the liner crews, some bad breaks they dig out and fix first. They find those with little robotic cameras



A video worth watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQH23RHhFf4

Also some data for people who don't know of the process.



> Before any relining takes place, the drains must first be inspected and surveyed. We use a “Color CCTV pipe camera” to identify and locate the cause of the problem. The Drain is then cleared using High pressure water jets; once the blockage is cleared the pipe is then ready for the Liner installation.
> 
> The Nu Flex liner is custom made from fabric that is impregnated with specially formulated two part epoxy resin that sets hard in a matter of hours allowing minimal disruption and inconvenience.
> 
> Once the liner is tailor made and prepared, it is inserted in to your drain via a any opening in the drain. It is positioned in place with a CCTV camera and inflated, forcing the liner to take the shape of the pipe filling and voids, cracks or lining over any damaged section. After a 2-4 (subject to weather and conditions) curing period, the internal bladder of the liner will be retrieved, completing the process and making the drain ready for use immediately.
> 
> On completion of all works carried out, you will receive a “before and after DVD video survey” of your drain, *10 year work guarantee and a 40 year product guarantee.*


 

Source: http://nuflowtech.com.au/index.php


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## lego1970

PDQDL, Yea sometimes I wear on my heart on my sleeve a little too much, or get a little too excited when I'm thinking about solutions to problems, but no I was not offended by your post. BTW, your right they did look at me like I was nuts when I ran that idea by them yesterday, however the head boss paused to think about it and engaged in the idea. We talked for a good 20 minutes about the root problems and what the city has done in the past to try and resovle the issue. Thanks for taking the time to write your response, again I always enjoy reading your post because they are well thought out and filled with good information. 

John Paul Sanborn, The boss mentioned about those linings and the city does use those in certian areas. I used to do right a way clearing for petroleum pipelines and for petroleum pipelines they use something similiar but it's installed around the outside of the pipe and it's wound super tight on the pipe. They call it a clock spring. Supposedly it stronger then the cast iron pipe itself.


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## BlueRidgeMark

pdqdl said:


> The real problem with electrocuting tree roots is that electricity follows the path of least resistance in it's trip to locations with lower voltage (EMF: ElectroMotive Force). You don't really know whether an electric discharge would enter and kill the offending roots, or if you would just be melting topsoil and making some really bad smelling steam. The current is likely to follow the water stream primarily to ground in a radiating zone of gradually reducing voltage.




Yep.



pdqdl said:


> We should presume, then, that it would take a really big electric supply with high voltage and high amperage to toast the roots, eh?
> 
> Then let us consider how difficult it is to control where that voltage and current is going. A possible scenario: your Mega-zapper 7000 subterranean root pruner is going down the sewer line ... Little Bobby falls down electrocuted, and you have a big problem.
> 
> Of course that is a purely hypothetical situation, but I imagine the probability of having those exact problems would preclude the use of electricity in any root pruning scenario.




A very *realistic *hypothetical scenario.



pdqdl said:


> This same trait that enables safety for humans would similarly protect trees from damage until you upped the voltage to something extremely dangerous for people.




Yup.


I'm all for inventiveness, but some things just don't need to be tried to know they won't work. They ignore too many fundamentals. This falls into that class.

Now, if you want to invent a robot that goes into a sewer line and selectively uses electricity to zap intruding roots, well, I'm sure that can be done.

But then, you'd probably get no better results than Roto-Rooter.


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## pdqdl

Thanks for the support. It's nice to know that one of the "Engineer-types" came in supporting me on this mental exercise.

I was pretty proud of my "Mega-Zapper 7000" concept. I can see it now, equipped with huge cable spools for killing roots in the distance. It would need a monster transformer for fitting control to different primary lines and a 35' aerial device with BIG jumper cables for direct clamping onto those pesky primaries.


I had fun thinking about root pruning problem. I probably wasted too much time on it though.


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## derwoodii

*control of elm tree suckers over front yard*

I'm looking for a remedy to control Elm tree suckers that have propagated under suburban fence and are spreading a thick matt over the front yard.
Resi has asked for works to be done out side of home property and this makes root barrier tricky unless I pull up 15 m of footpath with associated costs.

I have tried MCPA herbicide last year twas good but not 100% result as vigourus growth kicks back up each spring. So looking for a offset trencher that can squeeze in a 6 inch gap beside fence and footpath to install plastic barrier or add drenching chemical (copper sulphate) that suppresses root growth with out translocating back to tree. Paraquat works but I am not about to go that far yet. 

Its all because they laid front yard with old carpet cover some 8 years ago (don't ask) and so sub surface roots have spread thickly under this and as carpet rots away the sucker arise.

anyhoo ideas please


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## lego1970

I've used Garlon 4 ultra with utility companies and it definatly killls small woody plants or prevents stumps from suckering back, but I don't know if it makes it's way through the grafted roots and kills other shoots that are not directly sprayed. To keep new seedlings from emerging you'd pretty much have to sterilize the ground. Any chance of the homeowner just letting you fill in the 6"x45' area with concrete? Good luck.


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## derwoodii

thanks your reply in the mean time I found another product and i"ll give it a go and use a air knife/spade to cut narrow trench along fence line this I will back fill with plastic barrier and concrete 

Basta® Non-Selective Herbicide - Product Details - Bayer CropScience

It is not significantly translocated as an active herbicide throughout the plant, and therefore will only kill the part of a green plant that is contacted by spray. The active ingredient glufosinate-ammonium was originally isolated from soil-dwelling bacteria


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## flushcut

opcorn:


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## lego1970

flushcut said:


> opcorn:





What's your point flushcut? Did you not like either the Garlon or concrete idea? If you don't, just say so, and then add your suggestions. Like the original post...it's just an idea. A jug of Garlon cost a few hundred dollars. Granted he won't use very much of the bottle, but he's already talking about digging up the whole area, and thus putting labor dollars into it, so my thinking is that since you are already digging up the area lay down a 1/2 yard of concrete over it and be done with it. 

Your popcorn thing is like Blueridge mark statement up there...it doesnt add to the subject. Not saying you don't know about the subject but like him you are not contributing. He didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about and yet he tried to stir up drama. If he knew anything about the subject, he would know that cities already use a rover/robot to explore the pipelines everyday. The rovors already have cameras, misc attachements, and drag along a power source/retrieving cable....so I was just thinking about adding a electrical device to zap the roots. It's not building a brand new robot. The only thing he knows is asplundh work. Not taking away from that...but he was hardly qaulified to comment on this subject. And apparantly he never figured out why powerlines are high volt/low amp or he would of grasped what I was saying in regards towards high amp/low volt attachement. 

Sometimes you guys have some great insight and then sometimes you guys don't know jack about a subject and yet still add your little snide comments which is why I've been off this website for the last couple years. I come back on for one seemingly little insignificant comment and here comes the smartass icons and statements. I guess I'll leave again for a few more years because frankly, while I've learned a few things on this site, I've learned a lot more just be doing my own thing and doing other aspects of tree work aside from residential and utitlity.


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## flushcut

lego1970 said:


> What's your point flushcut? Did you not like either the Garlon or concrete idea? If you don't, just say so, and then add your suggestions. Like the original post...it's just an idea. A jug of Garlon cost a few hundred dollars. Granted he won't use very much of the bottle, but he's already talking about digging up the whole area, and thus putting labor dollars into it, so my thinking is that since you are already digging up the area lay down a 1/2 yard of concrete over it and be done with it.
> 
> Your popcorn thing is like Blueridge mark statement up there...it doesnt add to the subject. Not saying you don't know about the subject but like him you are not contributing. He didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about and yet he tried to stir up drama. If he knew anything about the subject, he would know that cities already use a rover/robot to explore the pipelines everyday. The rovors already have cameras, misc attachements, and drag along a power source/retrieving cable....so I was just thinking about adding a electrical device to zap the roots. It's not building a brand new robot. The only thing he knows is asplundh work. Not taking away from that...but he was hardly qaulified to comment on this subject. And apparantly he never figured out why powerlines are high volt/low amp or he would of grasped what I was saying in regards towards high amp/low volt attachement.
> 
> Sometimes you guys have some great insight and then sometimes you guys don't know jack about a subject and yet still add your little snide comments which is why I've been off this website for the last couple years. I come back on for one seemingly little insignificant comment and here comes the smartass icons and statements. I guess I'll leave again for a few more years because frankly, while I've learned a few things on this site, I've learned a lot more just be doing my own thing and doing other aspects of tree work aside from residential and utitlity.



WOW! Me using the popcorn guy is that I am watching this thread. But then again you know it all, cool guy.


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