# climbing white pine?



## Adkpk (Jul 7, 2007)

Looking at climbing a giant white pine, the tallest in the forest. Now that I can get up the tree on a rope I want to do some exploring in the heights. How do you guys avoid sap? And what does one use as a tip on a spar? White pine branches aren't the strongest.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 8, 2007)

Sap? Unavoidable, suck it up and deal with it.

Tip? White pines are actually pretty good. Run your rope around the trunk and over three or four limbs.


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## Dadatwins (Jul 8, 2007)

Use a friction saver around the tree as much as possible to avoid gumming up your rope and damaging the tree bark. White pine bark very thin up near the top and rope will put some deep cuts into the trunk wood which releases the sticky sap. The friction saver can be removed from the ground when you are finished. Have fun.


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## moray (Jul 8, 2007)

The big forest trees around here that top out at about 120 feet have almost no limbs in the lower half, so they require a long rope climb before you can get on any limbs. With one of these you need to be very choosy setting your initial line.

The trees that used to live in an open field tend to have much bigger limbs and live limbs much closer to the ground. They also tend to have two or more co-dominant stems, so you can often swing back and forth from stem to stem. These are fun.

The biggest pine in my yard is about 85 feet tall, but it is 40 inches DBH. The first limb is 20 feet up, and the limbs are big and strong. Even though I love this tree, it makes me nervous because I can't get my safety around the trunk until I am 60 feet up. I also can't easily set my initial line higher than 30 or 35 feet, so I find myself climbing through the tree's middle zone with no line above me and no way to safety around the trunk. In this case, I try to keep two independent safeties in play, and I toss the climb line over something above me when that is possible. I have had to climb a number of trees like this, but I am much more comfortable when I can safety around the trunk. If in doubt, add another tie-in to be safe.


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## Adkpk (Jul 8, 2007)

I just went up to look at the tree I am talking about. It was definitely field grown. It's a big one, I'd say 40" dbh and I can't see the top so I don't know how tall but 100' seems right. Many tips to choose from. About 30' up is a branch that is 16" thick. But the other side has less obstacles and a good tip 40' up. The tree must have an interesting history seeing it is in the woods now but definitely was raised in a field and stepped on a number of times or had the top copped off. It is double stemmed right from the ground and has multiple trunks 50' up. The multiple stems twist until they go out of site. It's pushed its root crown up so you have a hard time standing under it without stepping back a few feet. I can see a piece of the top from the neighbors yard but can't tell the height from there. It doesn't look much higher than the other trees but it is a little higher. Hope after the effort to climb it I get a view. We got to go back to the city tonight so in case your waiting for the climb story it will be a while till I get the chance. 
I did get a little dead wood pruning job form a customer for tomorrow. Big red oak. I'm just going to trim off the dead wood from the trunk. Maybe if it goes well I'll go out on a few limbs. Hey, it will offset the cost of some of these goodies I've been buying form the tree store. I'd say I've spend about $800. but I do have two 150' ropes.


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## moss (Jul 11, 2007)

Agree that sap on white pine is no problem when you use cambium saver or false crotch for DdRT. Typically the best way to get into these when they're growing in the woods (not a field) is Big Shot to a good sized branch (10-16" inspires confidence) and SRT up then switch to DdRT to move up to the top. Wild white pine doesn't tend to have a lot of sap on it, only occurs in quantity where there are recent top breakouts or broken branches from wind (or if a pileated woodpecker goes to town on the trunk). Every white pine that I've climbed (a handfull) shows evidence of a top breakout. White pines with lower branches pruned in yards or along streets are usually covered with sap.

Top reiterating on white pine from old breakout, note there is no sap:





-moss


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## Adkpk (Jul 11, 2007)

Oh boy, I hope that is what I find at the top of my white pine, a picnic area, nice shot moss. 

Is there a way to climb srt without ascenders?


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## moss (Jul 11, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Oh boy, I hope that is what I find at the top of my white pine, a picnic area, nice shot moss.
> 
> Is there a way to climb srt without ascenders?



There is but do you need to? If you have a 150 ft rope you can tie in DdRT on 68 ft. high or lower branches and go on up.

SRT is a whole nother ball of wax. You want to have an expert climber on hand to guide you through critical steps of properly setting the rope, climbing and rappeling SRT. It's very easy to get into major trouble as a beginner on your own. A RADS SRT set up is a good one to start on because rappel is built into the system. No tricky switchover from ascent to descent required. RADS requires one ascender and a Grigri or Petzl ID (Grigri works great, much less expensive than ID).
-moss


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## Adkpk (Jul 11, 2007)

Real nice looking method there. 

But I meant static line climb. Not sure of my terms yet. Basicly what I was getting at was if the line gets stuck is there a way to pull yourself up without an ascender. Could be way off base on this one and want to add it's nothing I will run out to try. Still climbing basic method and really enjoying it. But would like to know all my options.


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## joesawer (Jul 12, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Real nice looking method there.
> 
> But I meant static line climb. Not sure of my terms yet. Basicly what I was getting at was if the line gets stuck is there a way to pull yourself up without an ascender. Could be way off base on this one and want to add it's nothing I will run out to try. Still climbing basic method and really enjoying it. But would like to know all my options.



If the line gets "stuck" there is no way I am going to climb on it. What if it suddenly (or even slowly) becomes unstuck? If the line is stuck I would set another line securely and use it to climb up and unstick the first line.
If you use a SRT make sure you use a prussick.


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## moss (Jul 12, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Real nice looking method there.
> 
> But I meant static line climb. Not sure of my terms yet. Basicly what I was getting at was if the line gets stuck is there a way to pull yourself up without an ascender.



RADS is a static line climbing method.

Not sure what you mean by stuck. Do mean you're climbing DdRT and the line won't move?

I'll second what JoeSawyer said, if your line gets hung up that's not a safe TIP. If you put your weight on it get ready to take a ride to the ground.
-moss


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## geofore (Jul 12, 2007)

*add too joesawer's remark*

This is for the new guys. It's often said on the chainsaw fourm that you should have a backup saw in case you get one pinched in the wood. The same applys to ropes they get stuck, you should have a backup climbing rope. If you get your rope stuck, DO NOT try to climb on it, set up another rope and it should not be your lowering line. Your ropes need to be dedicated to the job they perform and not switched back and forth. They should be different colors/weaves/strands so you/groundmen can easily tell them apart. I use 16 strand to climb on and 3 strand for lowering/bull lines, the groundman is left with no excuse for not being able to tell them apart. Even with your safety glasses fogged with sweat and gloves on you can still see and feel the difference between the ropes.


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## moray (Jul 12, 2007)

moss said:


> SRT is a whole nother ball of wax. You want to have an expert climber on hand to guide you through critical steps of properly setting the rope, climbing and rappeling SRT. It's very easy to get into major trouble as a beginner on your own.



I agree with moss, SRT is a whole nother ball of wax. I learned it on my own, but I realized very quickly that it was a lot more complicated than the standard 2:1 method, and there were a lot more things that could go wrong.

A safe way to practice is to be separately hooked up to a 2:1 system. If something is going wrong with your SRT rig, just unhook everything and come down 2:1. Another safe method is to hook up 2:1, but climb the standing part of the line using SRT equipment and methods. This is how I learned it, and I didn't start climbing pure SRT until I was sure I knew what I was doing.

None of this is meant to discourage, just to emphasize that SRT is not nearly as clean and simple and uncomplicated as 2:1.


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## Adkpk (Jul 12, 2007)

Just for the record. I do have two ropes with me when I climb. I am talking about something that happened over here http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=50999

Moss I am talking about DdRT. I will not go into how the rope was stuck for that is a matter for the other thread and not really at that. 
But I will reiterate, can you go up a rope Drt with one end of the rope tied to the tree without using an ascender? Does anyone go up a static rope without mechanical devices? This is just a question, not looking to try it without my guardian angel. :biggrinbounce2: I mean come on guys I might be way off base here just being curious. :monkey:


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## moss (Jul 12, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> But I will reiterate, can you go up a rope Drt with one end of the rope tied to the tree without using an ascender? Does anyone go up a static rope without mechanical devices?



What you're describing is no longer DdRT. If the rope end is tied into the tree it's SRT. So I guess you're asking can you climb SRT on a hitch instead of mechanical ascender? The answer is yes. You would need two separate hitches on the rope each attached to your harness waist height or above. You'd need either some footloops, Pantin or be a good footlocker to ascend. You cannot descend SRT on the hitch the way you can DdRT. Well.. you could I guess but it is not advised, very difficult if not impossible to control rate of descent the way you can DdRT.

Do you have Jepson's Tree Climbing Companion? It would be helpful to review the major arborist ascending techniques: secured footlock on a doubled rope, DdRT and SRT, and then analyze how you could've best dealt with the situation that occured on your tulip polar climb.
-moss


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## moray (Jul 12, 2007)

You can. You can use a pair of prusiks, one for the feet and one above that tied to the belt. But it is a LOT more work than using ascenders. If you really wanted to work hard, you could throw out the lower prusik and footlock the rope instead. It's worth trying to climb with no mechanical help (I tried it a coulple of times), and it's not hard to set up, but I think you will quickly start looking for a better way.


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## Adkpk (Jul 12, 2007)

moray said:


> You can. You can use a pair of prusiks, one for the feet and one above that tied to the belt. But it is a LOT more work than using ascenders. If you really wanted to work hard, you could throw out the lower prusik and footlock the rope instead. It's worth trying to climb with no mechanical help (I tried it a coulple of times), and it's not hard to set up, but I think you will quickly start looking for a better way.



No, no, not looking to work harder!


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## Adkpk (Aug 21, 2007)

*back at it*

The weather being much cooler out here in the Northeast, I got up my white pine this weekend. After two attempts both ending in darkness I got up to about 70'. This thread should be moved to rec climbing. I have no intention of cutting in this tree. I was going to prune dead branches but after ascending it I see that the dead branches are like corks to keep the sap in. 
Anyway, the climbing has been effortless. After trunk walking to the lower branches I free climb to a perfect branch to sit on. I reset the line with the throwline and moved up to the second third or the tree. I left the throw line up there for the next time I get to ascend. This has been my usual method in all the trees I have climbed. Free climbing to get position to loft the throwline to a higher position then pulling myself up form there.
I finished my 30' lanyard last night which I spliced in a snap and braided the end to give it a stop. I think I will use my beeline the prusik and a vt for the hitch. I need to get another micro pulley from Sherrill. Sorry no pic yet. (for the first time I left my gear up at the weekender and I am really missing having it around)
Question is: Can I snap onto my bridge with my treemaster rope using my safety blue split tail thus turning the 30' lanyard into my life line and pull myself up on it? Why not, right? Will the treemaster do a number on my split tail? 
If you wonder why I would be asking? I am thinking it would be easier, using a monkey knot in the shorter rope, to maneuver up to spots where I could reset the climb line, rather than going the throwline and rope saver route. 


Couple of pics: one of the route up and the other of the farther up.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 21, 2007)

Nice tree to climb, in picture 2 there is a rope? hanging on a dead stub. I hope you are not using those stubs as tie in points. Not sure about the dead stubs acting as plugs either. Cut the dead stubs off properly and they should not bleed. Cut into the live wood and that will make a mess and be bad for the tree. I would prefer them cut off to lessen the risk of acidently trying to stand on one and having it break. Those short stubs are notorious rope catchers also. No fun having your climbing line wrapped on stub 30 feet below you and no ground man around to unsnag it. Be careful.


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## moray (Aug 21, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Question is: Can I snap onto my bridge with my treemaster rope using my safety blue split tail thus turning the 30' lanyard into my life line and pull myself up on it? Why not, right? Will the treemaster do a number on my split tail?
> If you wonder why I would be asking? I am thinking it would be easier, using a monkey knot in the shorter rope, to maneuver up to spots where I could reset the climb line, rather than going the throwline and rope saver route.


Looks a lot like some of the pines around here... 

As for using the treemaster as a temporary climbing line, which I have done on occasion, I gave up on that because it is so awfully stiff. Instead I took to dragging up a short (40') climbing rope. This seems just the ticket for most occasions, though I am thinking I really want to have a 60 footer as well.

Will it tear up your spit tail? Nah. You only plan to do this now and then, and even then not for descending. No worries.


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## Adkpk (Aug 21, 2007)

The rope is just the throw line after a miss. I am all over those dead limbs but never without being ready to break one off. I kick them before I use one to put my weight on. I think it would be an eyesore if I pruned the tree. Let others enjoy it the way I do, natural. Their is someone there. My gf was with me the first time and a friend the second. I also have a walkie talkie in case they wonder off. 

Good to hear you experience the problems with the short rope use, Moray. The treemaster will become a lanyard at times. 

The last third of the tree looks rather daunting. It's splits into three trunks. Any advise as how to choose the healthiest lead? I am supposing the thickest with the most live branches. And I seen activity up there. I suppose it's a popular place for big birds to hang out seeing it's the highest tree in the land. I'll try to remember the camera which I forgot the on the second climb and post some better pics. 

I've managed to make the money back on my gear doing pruning jobs on some of my customers places.  Thanks for the help guys.


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## Adkpk (Sep 1, 2007)

Up in the white pine today. Man, was it a nice day today. Started late again so didn't get to the top. Just wanted to post something to say, "what's up" to everyone. 
I go up to 60' tonight. It's becoming effortless to pull myself up. I am still perplexed on different ways to get around the tree and fighting gravity. At sixty feet I still can't see the top. It's like a whole other tree up there. The branches look crowded and difficult to place a throw line to at the next level. But I'll find a way. I am almost above the other trees of the forest so the good part is to come. To be able to see to the south will be new to me. Sorry no questions this post. I am getting the hang of this climbing thing. Thanks guys for helping me to the heights. :rockn:


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## moray (Sep 3, 2007)

*Another White Pine*

Since my neighbor's 95-foot white pine is due for a "crown reduction" by the local arborist in a few days, I decided to climb it and enjoy a view that will soon be gone forever.

First photo shows the SRT anchor setup at base of tree (40" diameter). Climbing rope is attached with butterfly knot.







Second photo shows detail of anchor setup. The small rope above the Loopie is there to guarantee the geometry of the anchor won't change when I am up above and allow the rope to go slack. The single wrap the little rope takes around the biner prevents the climbing rope from slipping down next to the biner gate.






Third photo shows one of the views from 75 feet, looking over downtown.


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## Adkpk (Sep 6, 2007)

Nice looking setup there, moray. Nice looking town. 

Here's a few pics of my essential knots and view. I am only half way up. I am interested to see to the east after moving up above the tree line hopefully in the next climb. Darkness has been the reason I haven't made it to the top yet. When the weather cools some more and I get a brake from working on the house I'll do a morning climb and get to the top.


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## Adkpk (Nov 25, 2007)

Finally made it to the top today. I'll post pics tomorrow when I get back to dial up. Not much to see, my batteries went dead before I got to the top. Love this tree climbing good for everything about oneself.


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## moray (Nov 25, 2007)




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## Adkpk (Nov 26, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Finally made it to the top today. I'll post pics tomorrow when I get back to dial up. Not much to see, my batteries went dead before I got to the top. Love this tree climbing good for everything about oneself.



I meant when I get back to cable, sorry. 

First pic is of the tree again. 
First, I threw a line up to about 30'. Climbed to it. Then reset with the 'arborplex' to the higher throw line(which I had left in the tree from the last climb). Climbing on 70' of rope is really tiring as some of you might know. I took my 'true blue' with me after climbing the first leg with it. 
Then at about 60' I retied again (with a throw line you can't see in the pic) and ascended to 75'. Leaving my 'arborplex' for the descent. 
At 75' feet I thought I would throw another line but once up there I could see in the canopy. I didn't bring any snips with me and I would have needed them. 
It gets pretty knarley up there with limbs. I got to thinking of sap bleeding out of the cuts and figured I wouldn't be able to see any better up further seeing the greenery was much fuller. And the fact that Catherine (gf) was reminding me I had to put up the storms before it got dark. :greenchainsaw: (third pic)






This setup is working well for me. No movement of the biners to worry about. Note the mini biner holing the ropes together.






Gf looking out for me. 






This is a great tree to climb. After several attempts I am pretty good at it. And, "look mom, no sap".  Thanks for the help guys.


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## oldirty (Nov 26, 2007)

congratulations man.

the view is always better from the top.





oldirty


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 1, 2007)

When you return to Mother Earth try " goop " the mechanics hand cleaner ! It will quickly remove the nasty pine sappppp !!!!!!


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## Adkpk (Dec 1, 2007)

I did not experience any sap form this tree.


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