# Why do they use helmets with no shield or ear protection?



## mercer_me

I'm not trying to nock West Cost logging, but I noticed that they use helmets with no shield or ear protection. Around hear we use helmets with sheilds and ear protection to save our eys and ears from damage. I was just wandering if there was a reason why they use helmets with no shield or ear protection.


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## motoroilmccall

Same reason the greenhorn wears a plastic hardhat... Its all about status and image. Wearing the Skull Bucket is just a status symbol. Personally I don't wear a shield or muffs on my hat either, just too much bulk. I wear glasses and plugs, but thats a lot less to lug around than a full helmet. 

Plus they do things old school out there, and the metal hat is certainly old school.


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## serial killer

The thing that gets me is all those guys cutting without safety glasses. In the scene where Levi cuts down a big snag with an 880, they actually showed a shot of chips piling up in his eyes. I know they get fogged up sometimes, but I can see better through foggy glasses than i can with an eye full of crud.


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## BuddhaKat

It's because they're Men, Men, Men, Men, Manly Men. They were all brought up worshiping the Greek God of Forestry, Testecleas. 

Personally, I'm the poster boy for Girlie Men so I wear the helmet, ear muffs, face screen, safety glasses, Kevlar gloves, Kevlar chaps, and Kevlar lined-steel toed logging boots. I might jump 6' straight up at the sight of a spider, but I could survive a Grizzly Bear attack.

When my guys ask me why I'm always dancing around while I'm sawing, I tell em I'm just "sweating to the oldies". They're both in their early 20's so they just stand there and look at me funny.


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## motoroilmccall

serial killer said:


> The thing that gets me is all those guys cutting without safety glasses. In the scene where Levi cuts down a big snag with an 880, they actually showed a shot of chips piling up in his eyes. I know they get fogged up sometimes, but I can see better through foggy glasses than i can with an eye full of crud.



Yeah... That I don't understand, some of the cutters wear goggles, or glasses, but a lot of them don't. Personally, I won't cut without them.


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## 2dogs

mercer_me said:


> I'm not trying to nock West Cost logging, but I noticed that they use helmets with no shield or ear protection. Around hear we use helmets with sheilds and ear protection to save our eys and ears from damage. I was just wandering if there was a reason why they use helmets with no shield or ear protection.



Because we are all stupid west coast boys with smal trilers. You eastern dairy loggers are used to getting shot in the eye with sheep milk so you wear safety glasses. Hooray for you! I wear Rx so I don't count.


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## slowp

Have you heard about rain? Rain almost every day, every month but maybe not in August. A constant drizzle? Where does rain want to go? Why down the back! Gravity at work. A full brim hat, plastic or metal helps deflect that rain. I've also heard the theory that the full brim will deflect limbs better too. I'm doubtful about that, having had a limb impale itself in the ground next to my foot. I think it would break or dent the hardhat and I'd be dead or knocked out...but I digress.

Full brim hats are considered stylish, even most _*Farmer Loggers *_(spit now) wear them.

Those face shield thingies don't fit on full brim *HARDHATS*. 
Some fallers do not want anything to restrict their vision. Personally, I don't think that's a good idea, but that's what I've been told. Most around here wear some kind of glasses. I believe the state safety people might not agree that eye protection restricts vision. And, you have to remember that you can't spit with one of those face thingies. Like after saying, _*Farmer Loggers*_.

We, and I'm not a logger, but I'm out on the ground amongst them, wear earplugs. There are a few guys out ready to ruin their hearing. I think I know of 1. Everybody else uses earplugs. Those ear thingies don't fit the full 
brim *HARDHATS* I also think I came up with a theory that those ear muff thingies might could interfere with our homing instinct. 

The full brim *HARDHATS* are the customary style and fashion out here.
Metal, plastic--doesn't matter but the full brim is the way to go.


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## TimberFaller660

here where im at its OSHA's rules to have a 6pt. suspension, ear muffs, and face mask/safety glasses.


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## dingeryote

Just an observation.

The muffs screw with your hearing the tree "Talk" just before it starts to go down.

When felling, I leave the muffs off the ears, and have heard the dreaded first "Pop" of an impending barberchair more than once and in time, to get outta the way. 

I don't get the no eyepro thing however. Getting blind ain't my idea of fun and good eyepro is available that dosn't fog up or get in the way.

But it's thier eyeballs, so more power too 'em if that's the way they wanna go.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Brmorgan

Because both are heavy, in the way, and overkill. Earmuffs are extremely hot in the summer and I will NOT use them unless I forget my plugs. As for a full face shield, I see no _practical_ benefit above what a good pair of safety glasses can provide. I'm not denying that they do offer some more protection, I'm just not sure that it is necessary enough to be worth the extra vision and mobility impairment they incur. Personally I'd rather have nice, clear peripheral vision which some shields don't provide. Glasses sit a lot closer to the eyes as well, and can block out almost all ambient dust which a shield cannot.

I agree with dingeryote about leaving the hearing protection out at times to hear the finer details of what's happening around you. I don't use this tactic for dropping trees so much, but more when I'm milling logs with the Alaskan so I can really listen to how the engine's running.

Keep in mind I'm not a faller by trade and I'm not out dropping dozens of trees a day, so what's good for me may not be good for others. But I've spent the last ten years working in sawmills and have my share of experience with different PPE, so these are just my opinions based on that. Face shields and muffs are nice to have when unjamming a big chipper, for instance. Not so much when piling lumber on the greenchain.


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## Cedarkerf

The wife wears the plasic helmet system but she looks cute in it.


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## Raymond

mercer_me said:


> I'm not trying to nock West Cost logging, but I noticed that they use helmets with no shield or ear protection. Around hear we use helmets with sheilds and ear protection to save our eys and ears from damage. I was just wandering if there was a reason why they use helmets with no shield or ear protection.


Whatta ya need ear protection with a Husky for?


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## oregoncutter

*Helmets*

I just use a full brim metal hardhat, throwaway earplugs, and a pair of lightly tinted safety glasses. I just grew up seeing, and using a full brim hardhat in my opinion they provide better shade in the summmer, and keep the rain from going down you're collar when it's raining. The big thing is alot of the thinking I've been around is loggers wear full brimmed hats, and the other types are seen on other folks like construction workers, or industrial workers. As far as deflecting limbs, I would have to say not enough to do me any good. Most of the time where I work safety goggles or even glasses just fog up unless it's late morning or early afternoon in the summer, also when the winds blowing and rains falling which is pretty common they are hard to keep in a condition to see well through. I do agree eye protection should be worn but sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. Earmuffs would drive me nuts, they would be too hot in the summer, and I think they would be extra bulk. I prefer a pair of disposable earplugs connected by a string I usually start out with a few pair in my pocket in the morning, I take mine out depending on what I am cutting. One thing I know for sure is if a guy showed up to work in my neck of the woods with a helmet, and muffs, and shield he would get alot of hell from everyone.


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## smokechase II

*hard head for hard hats*

6 point versus 4 is worth something.
Ear muffs are hot and the moisture they build up attracts yellow jackets.
However they work well, easy to set at an off angle to allow hearing for popping while back cutting.
Ear plugs work poorly, horseshoe ear plugs are nice as you can pop one ear out without doing a glove thing to walk through the woods - backcutting etc.
Full brim might protect your neck some from falling object but not the sides or face. Rain is the main reason for those guys.
Face shield does get in the way of vertical awareness. Death from above.
Face shield also seems to build up dust in really dry conditions.

Seldom mentioned but a big deal is does your hard hat stay on when you look up? If you have to hold it with a hand get something that works.


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## mtfallsmikey

*Curious...*



smokechase II said:


> 6 point versus 4 is worth something.
> Ear muffs are hot and the moisture they build up attracts yellow jackets.
> However they work well, easy to set at an off angle to allow hearing for popping while back cutting.
> Ear plugs work poorly, horseshoe ear plugs are nice as you can pop one ear out without doing a glove thing to walk through the woods - backcutting etc.
> Full brim might protect your neck some from falling object but not the sides or face. Rain is the main reason for those guys.
> Face shield does get in the way of vertical awareness. Death from above.
> Face shield also seems to build up dust in really dry conditions.
> 
> Seldom mentioned but a big deal is does your hard hat stay on when you look up? If you have to hold it with a hand get something that works.



Speaking of yellow jackets....is it the moisture or the smell of tree sap that draws them in? I've always wondered...enquiring minds wanna know...


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## slowp

smokechase II said:


> Seldom mentioned but a big deal is does your hard hat stay on when you look up? If you have to hold it with a hand get something that works.



My old MacDonald T is the best one I've ever had for fit. I've still got it, and it is light and sticks on well. The Bullard with the hand crank on the back is the worst. It won't stay on through my acrobatics.

The older Bullard style is better, so I wear that. It has stayed on through some impromptu gymnastics. 

Hardhats, and other hats, don't want to stay on when my hair has just been washed and dried. 

Do you guys think it is because I use the wrong conditioner?


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## Gologit

slowp said:


> My old MacDonald T is the best one I've ever had for fit. I've still got it, and it is light and sticks on well. The Bullard with the hand crank on the back is the worst. It won't stay on through my acrobatics.
> 
> The older Bullard style is better, so I wear that. It has stayed on through some impromptu gymnastics.
> 
> Hardhats, and other hats, don't want to stay on when my hair has just been washed and dried.
> 
> Do you guys think it is because I use the wrong conditioner?



Naaaahhh...I use Lava soap for conditioner and my Mac T stays on just fine.


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## smokechase II

Yellowjackets can be attracted to things like cologne. We had one guy prove that.

Mostly though they are in search of water come August.

============

The ear muff hard hats do stay on better than anything else.

They also allow for a ear piece underneath and you can listen to the fire radio freqs really well.

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I've found that 'dread'locks interbraided with the hardhart liner remove conditioner concerns altogether.


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## 1I'dJak

here i bc its plastic hardhat with muffs and full visor...if you showed up with the setup they have on axmen you'd be sitting in the truck...muffs are hot and the the shield sucks but thems the rules here....you see a faller here and he's got the full helmet, buckin pants (no chaps), 3.5lb axe w/4 wedges (in a pouch not the back of your jeans pocket), radio, tape, caulks, and buckin' card.... little less wild west i guess and a little more professional imo...


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## goatchin

buckin' card-is that the rectangular shaped "card" that is attached to the front of the radio harness or suspenders? 

Been wondering what that was when i watched a couple of the BC 'tube videos. seems like having it right there on your shoulder seems to get in the way sometimes with it floppin around


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## BuddhaKat

Raymond said:


> Whatta ya need ear protection with a Husky for?


It helps to keep the mountains of chips the Huskys produce out of your ears. Now if you're running a Shihl I can see how that wouldn't be a problem.


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## BuddhaKat

1I'dJak said:


> here i bc its plastic hardhat with muffs and full visor...if you showed up with the setup they have on axmen you'd be sitting in the truck...muffs are hot and the the shield sucks but thems the rules here....you see a faller here and he's got the full helmet, buckin pants (no chaps), 3.5lb axe w/4 wedges (in a pouch not the back of your jeans pocket), radio, tape, caulks, and buckin' card.... little less wild west i guess and a little more professional imo...


Chaps are not allowed or just not preferred?

So now that the bucking card has been identified, what exactly does it do?


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## GASoline71

How many more of these "question" threads are you gonna start? FFS 

Gary


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## mercer_me

slowp said:


> Have you heard about rain? Rain almost every day, every month but maybe not in August. A constant drizzle? Where does rain want to go? Why down the back! Gravity at work. A full brim hat, plastic or metal helps deflect that rain. I've also heard the theory that the full brim will deflect limbs better too. I'm doubtful about that, having had a limb impale itself in the ground next to my foot. I think it would break or dent the hardhat and I'd be dead or knocked out...but I digress.



Thank you, that ansers my question.


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## Boleclimber

BuddhaKat said:


> It helps to keep the mountains of chips the Huskys produce out of your ears. Now if you're running a Shihl I can see how that wouldn't be a problem.



A stihl has a great vacuum device called an air filter; it sucks all the chips up when revved, then drops a portion when at idle


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## scotclayshooter

dingeryote said:


> Just an observation.
> 
> The muffs screw with your hearing the tree "Talk" just before it starts to go down.
> 
> When felling, I leave the muffs off the ears, and have heard the dreaded first "Pop" of an impending barberchair more than once and in time, to get outta the way.
> 
> I don't get the no eyepro thing however. Getting blind ain't my idea of fun and good eyepro is available that dosn't fog up or get in the way.
> 
> But it's thier eyeballs, so more power too 'em if that's the way they wanna go.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote




Ive got a pair of Peltor alerts that have a radio and microphones built in, Just tap a button turns them from one to the other they will amplify background noise in sterio and are available for fitting on hard hats.
My saw helmet has the muffs with the radio built in only.
They are real good quality and have been out in all weathers for 4 years!


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## tree md

dingeryote said:


> Just an observation.
> 
> The muffs screw with your hearing the tree "Talk" just before it starts to go down.
> 
> When felling, I leave the muffs off the ears, and have heard the dreaded first "Pop" of an impending barberchair more than once and in time, to get outta the way.
> 
> I don't get the no eyepro thing however. Getting blind ain't my idea of fun and good eyepro is available that dosn't fog up or get in the way.
> 
> But it's thier eyeballs, so more power too 'em if that's the way they wanna go.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



I'm of the same school of thought. Plus, I had a guy falling a tree on one of my jobs who cut below his notch. I'm all for PPE but when I can't get your attention because you can't hear me yelling to tell you to quit cutting when I need to it serves no protection. Had to tie the 3 1/2' trunk off, tie it to a truck and pull it over. Got lucky as hell because it was leaning for a neighboring house and was cut clean through and standing on it's butt. Closest I have come to ****ing myself in a long time.

I wear a climbing helmet with no muffs or face shield but do have plugs. Sometimes I'll wear the groundies hard hat with full face and muffs if I'm working around the chipper or doing prolonged cutting but personally, I can't stand the face shield because I keep spitting tobacco into it.


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## Raymond

tree md said:


> I'm of the same school of thought. Plus, I had a guy falling a tree on one of my jobs who cut below his notch. *I'm all for PPE but when I can't get your attention because you can't hear me yelling to tell you to quit cutting when I need to it serves no protection.*Had to tie the 3 1/2' trunk off, tie it to a truck and pull it over. Got lucky as hell because it was leaning for a neighboring house and was cut clean through and standing on it's butt. Closest I have come to ****ing myself in a long time.
> 
> I wear a climbing helmet with no muffs or face shield but do have plugs. Sometimes I'll wear the groundies hard hat with full face and muffs if I'm working around the chipper or doing prolonged cutting but personally, I can't stand the face shield because I keep spitting tobacco into it.


Yeah a climber that can't hear you can't be good.


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## Huskyman4k

1I'dJak said:


> here i bc its plastic hardhat with muffs and full visor...if you showed up with the setup they have on axmen you'd be sitting in the truck...muffs are hot and the the shield sucks but thems the rules here....you see a faller here and he's got the full helmet, buckin pants (no chaps), 3.5lb axe w/4 wedges (in a pouch not the back of your jeans pocket), radio, tape, caulks, and buckin' card.... little less wild west i guess and a little more professional imo...



I been reading this thread with interest, here in the Uk there is are strict H&S [health & safety] rules, you wouldnt be allowed to work in any forest without the proper gear. Hard hat with visor & ear muffs, some with a rain gard on the back to keep the rain from running down your back. Husqvarna make the best helmets with very good ear protection, I have used them for years but just trying out a peletor ear muffs so see how they perform, so far very good and dont cut out people speaking like ear plugs do. trouble with plugs i find is they stop noise but not always the damaging noise and you always feel very muffled and uncomfortable after hours of work. I dont find veiwing restricted but that could be down to always using the proper gear to start with, there is no way I could use just a hat even if it did direct rain away from my neck, just not safe enough.
I never used chaps always full trousers with all round protection, hot in the summer but if I did slip at least I would be walking home and not have my leg half cut off, chaps seem ok for the DIY user who only cuts 30 minuets on the weekend but not for forest work, just not safe enough. How these guys (or the companies they work for) get away with working with no protection only a tin hat leave most of us here in the UK amazed 
Big saw or sall saw, they all wreck your hearing and gives you a cut a personal first aid kit just cant handle this is not about hard men in the woods, to me it's just not sensable to use a saw without protecting yourself as must as possable, we all know just how easy it is to slip. 
I live in Wales where it rains a fair bit so water proof clothing needs to work, I seen the axe men in the rain, no water proofs or is all this just for the camera. They did give figures of how many men were killed each year, to me this could be avoided using the right equipment (not 100% but probably 75%)

Great site, I dont post much :taped: but love to read what your all up to on the other side of the water.

Take care & safe logging


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## Philbert

*Couple of PPE Points*

Safety glasses / goggles protect your EYES.

Face shields protect your FACE (and keep the bigger stuff away from your safety glasses), but are not a substitute for safety glasses.

Chin straps are available for most hard hats (not just the climbing ones) if they fall off when looking up after washing your hair.

4 and 6 point suspensions are tested to the same level of protection, and are actually the part of the hard hat that absorbs most of the IMPACT from things dropping FROM ABOVE; the hard shell just prevents PENETRATION.

Canadian helmet standards also include protection from SIDE impacts; I have seen one version where part of the liner looks like the inside of a bike helmet.

Ear PLUGS and MUFFS often protect against different sound frequencies, as well as noise reduction levels. It is printed on the packages. Plugs are usually better at attenuating higher frequencies; muffs at lower frequencies. One is going to be more effective than the other, depending upon the noise source, aside from the convenience and preference issues.

Hearing loss is progressive. If you run your saw long enough without hearing protection, you won't hear any 'pops', yells, warnings, whistles, etc.

Philbert


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## Huskyman4k

Philbert said:


> Safety glasses / goggles protect your EYES.
> 
> Face shields protect your FACE (and keep the bigger stuff away from your safety glasses), but are not a substitute for safety glasses.
> Philbert



To be honest I never found the need for glasses/goggles with normal felling. If the chain is as sharp as it should be there is very little dust or maybe its just the conditions I am used to working in. I can see goggles coming into their own if cutting in a tree or higher up but if your on the ground, no problem with chips the face gaurd stops it all if I cant get out of the way enough. 

Thanks for your reply


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## chucker

Philbert said:


> Hearing loss is progressive. If you run your saw long enough without hearing protection, you won't hear any 'pops', yells, warnings, whistles, etc.
> 
> Philbert



" HUH, WHAT DID YOU SAY ? "


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## Fronty Owner

Philbert said:


> Hearing loss is progressive. If you run your saw long enough without hearing protection, you won't hear any 'pops', yells, warnings, whistles, etc.
> 
> Philbert



GRAMPA SAYS THAT JUST "TOUGHENING UP"

I wear ear protection quiet regularly for work or personal. 
Ive always got a few pairs of foam ear plugs with me.


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## 2dogs

This is necroposting I guess but here goes. My distance vision is such that I don't really need to wear Rx glasses during the day. I went from my normal Rx RecSpecs to Bugz type wire screen goggles but they are just too tight with my big skull. Last week I started wearing a pair of wire screen safety glasses from Bailey's and they are great! They stay on my head securely and of course don't fog up. All the other crew members wear the Stihl system but then that is what the boss buys. (The boss just bought my Skull Bucket for logging, it did not stay on my head.) I wear a new style Bullard wildland hat with standard suspension. Full brim of course. I do wish the Husqvarna rain shield fit the Bullard though.

The Stihl system works OK but it is too fragile (most damage occurs in the back of the truck) and the muffs/screen are always in the way when jumping on and off equipment.

I'm not against a system hardhat But I just break them too easily and I prefer earplugs. I will admit having a nettle shoved up my ear last week did burn for several days.


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## slowp

I thwapped myself, again, in the eye with the bugz. They are kind of dangerous to put on and take off. You could put your eye out!

But I like them. Elastic can be challenging.


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## Huskyman4k

Yes I agree with you, common sense prevails.
Myself I am not too keen on ear plugs, it is a bit like working with your fingers in your ears but they will protect hearing. I find muffs much better especially after hours of work, and they keep your ears warm when it's blowing freezing wind around your neck. 

One thing you may be able to help with.
I seen on a recent Axemen program (think it must be 2nd series) you Duop has a mishap with a Husqvarna and cuts his trousers!! 
Thankfully the chain did not cut his leg but please enlighten me what he was wearing under them trousers. The protection we must wear shreads & stops the chain dead, his just seemed to skid off & only tore the denim. 

Interested to know more


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## Cedarkerf

He was wearing inside the pants safety pads thats what I wear. It will tangle and stop chain.http://www.labonville.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=19&idcategory=127


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## Huskyman4k

Thanks Brian, well they worked eh

I had a look at the link you posted, good for the price which seems very reasonable, over with us they wouldnt pass the required level of safety but here in the UK H&S has gone way over the top and you wouldnt be able to work without ALL the right gear.

I seen on youtube a chain going through a toecap which was composite made and not steel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pequmgt21Lw

almost everyone I know use Haix and very comfortable and pass all the safety tests, price is a bit steep at around $315 in your money. But gas is expensive too at 1.82 dollar a litre (why we ever changed from gallons, political!!)


have a good weekend


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## gwiley

mtfallsmikey said:


> Speaking of yellow jackets....is it the moisture or the smell of tree sap that draws them in? I've always wondered...enquiring minds wanna know...



It is the pure hatred they have for men. I have tangled with ground nests of these demons too many times to believe anything other than that they are hell-spawn intent on creating misery and pain.


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## Philbert

Huskyman4k said:


> I had a look at the link you posted, good for the price which seems very reasonable, over with us they wouldnt pass the required level of safety but here in the UK H&S has gone way over the top and you wouldnt be able to work without ALL the right gear.



Those Labonville pants have removable cut resistant pads, but there are pants with sewn-in pads that might meet the European standards. I know that Jonsered sells some and I am sure that there are others.

http://www.jonsered.co.uk/node246.aspx Products / Clothes and Tools / Clothing

Philbert


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## Huskyman4k

Philbert said:


> Those Labonville pants have removable cut resistant pads, but there are pants with sewn-in pads that might meet the European standards. I know that Jonsered sells some and I am sure that there are others.
> 
> http://www.jonsered.co.uk/node246.aspx Products / Clothes and Tools / Clothing
> 
> Philbert



Hi Philbert,
Thanks for the link, I think husqvarna & Jonsered are the same company (think I hear that years ago?) 
this is what I currently have, not as good as my old pair but more room so easy to move around and a bit cooler in the summer but still warm in winter.
http://www.husqvarna.com/uk/forest/...clothes/clothes/waist-20,-pro-light,-model-a/

this link is the page before with more on, very similar to Jonsered as you can see. 

sorry for the late reply, only check when I have the time, great site


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## Terry L

I'm a western Oregon logger (now mostly retired) and I really like the plastic hardhat with the earmuffs and face screen, and have worn it for over 20 years. It's all in one unit and is quicker than messing around with seperate units. I've tried various safety glasses and have never found any that I could use all the time without them fogging up. A lot of people use no ear protection and they will be hearing impaired after several years-though they might not recognize it even after it has happened. Another plus for the ear muffs over ear plugs is that up to one third of the sound that goes to the inner ear enters via the bones of the head. Muffs deaden that vibration, while ear plugs don't do anything to stop it.


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## Philbert

Terry L said:


> Another plus for the ear muffs over ear plugs is that up to one third of the sound that goes to the inner ear enters via the bones of the head. Muffs deaden that vibration, while ear plugs don't do anything to stop it.



If you look at the technical data for hearing protection you will see that in addition to the decibel noise reduction, there is usually a difference in which sound frequencies muffs and plugs protect against. So in some cases, wearing both can provide additional protection.

Progressive, work-related hearing loss is usually associated with damage to the small cilia hairs in your ears (in cochlea in drawing below). I don't know if the cilia are damaged in the same way, or in the same amount, by bone conduction vibration as they are by sound pressure (noise).

Either way, you are better off wearing plugs or muffs than nothing at all.

Philbert


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## gwiley

philbert said:


> if you look at the technical data for hearing protection you will see that in addition to the decibel noise reduction, there is usually a difference in which sound frequencies muffs and plugs protect against. So in some cases, wearing both can provide additional protection.
> 
> Progressive, work-related hearing loss is usually associated with damage to the small cilia hairs in your ears (in cochlea in drawing below). I don't know if the cilia are damaged in the same way, or in the same amount, by bone conduction vibration as they are by sound pressure (noise).
> 
> Either way, you are better off wearing plugs or muffs than nothing at all.
> 
> Philbert



what? Speak up please!


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