# A Bucking Question



## slowp (Dec 14, 2010)

Not falling. Today's example is that I came upon a Doug-fir probably 18" diameter where it needed to be bucked at. A blowdown, on the road. Somebody had already taken just enough to fit a car through. The chunk I was bucking off was about 4 feet long, because that is where there was clearance between the tree and the pavement. I forgot my camera today. 

I have Twinkle and falling wedges for equipment. I start bucking, the saw does not get stuck, but the tree just settles when I have cut through. The cut off chunk does not break loose. It is cut all the way through but held tightly against the rest of the tree, because of the settling. 

I try to cut another chunk off, a bit farther up, same thing. All the way through, but stuck. 

I'm wishing for a peavey, or Tippy the truck with the blade, but that's not going to happen. The only thing I can do is proceed to carve an opening --widen the kerf, so I can get the chunk loose. This works, but takes time and doesn't look so good. 

Is there a secret cut that would cause it to come apart? Somehow, I have my doubts on this but many of you have years and years of experience and might have the secret bucking method to kick it loose. Help please?


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## banshee67 (Dec 14, 2010)

how about a little muscle and some cursing? usually solves most problems


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Dec 14, 2010)

*wedges*

Cut end have a large friction surface. Use wedge lightly for a pivot point. Just enough to break surface friction. A cant hook or long rock bar would help. Log tongs with chain or rope attached to truck would get ya started.


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## flushcut (Dec 14, 2010)

Sounds like end bind to me how about a diagonal cut so the two cut slide past each other.


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## madhatte (Dec 14, 2010)

I carry a peavey. Makes all the difference in the world.


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## slowp (Dec 14, 2010)

madhatte said:


> I carry a peavey. Makes all the difference in the world.



I requested that some be bought today. I have my doubts.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm not really understanding what the bucking problem is. To clear a crown off the road is mostly just a simple matter of cutting 80% thru and hinging it back by either brute force or some kinda other friendly persuader.
John


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## madhatte (Dec 14, 2010)

slowp said:


> I requested that some be bought today. I have my doubts.



What I use it for the most is rolling longer, heavier rounds out of the way than I could by hand... thus, making less cuts, and getting back on the road faster. It's a handy tool.


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## slowp (Dec 14, 2010)

madhatte said:


> What I use it for the most is rolling longer, heavier rounds out of the way than I could by hand... thus, making less cuts, and getting back on the road faster. It's a handy tool.



Yes, I have one at home, but don't want to drag it to work and have it rattling around in the back of the pickup every day. I'd rather have one at work too. 

I guess I'll cut smaller pieces or continue to carve.


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## madhatte (Dec 14, 2010)

I have tool boxes mounted to a flatbed on my work rig. Everything stays put pretty well and out of the rain. I used to have a rig with a bed and truck box. That got messy sometimes.


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## bitzer (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm trying to picture what you've got. Where is the bind? Diagonal might help it slip. Open it up with a small face where it will pinch so it doesn't. Reaming it out maybe? How was it hung? You really could have used the camera this time Miss P. Maybe you need a hero cam?


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## slowp (Dec 14, 2010)

I could use a lot of things... I think I did end up reaming it out. 

No extra help...no equipment...and even the loggers are staying away because it is so wet. Whining over...


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## joesawer (Dec 14, 2010)

If you where able to get it loose buy reaming and widening the kerf the tree must not have moved much to keep the rounds compressed.
A diagonal cut sometimes called a Salomi cut will pop a compressed piece out, sometimes with force. 
It can be more difficult to use if the log is on the ground. 
But sometimes it is the only way to get compressed pieces apart without equipment.


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2010)

I returned, thinking that I'd get the cone because somebody might have cut it up for firewood. Much to my surprise, the tree was untouched. I decided if I cut it up, I'd haul it home, so headed back to town, took an hour off, got my own pickup and saw and went out and cut a load. The tree is no longer on any pavement. Boy, that was good wood. I put some little chips in my pickup for air freshener. 

The Barbie Saw went right through it. As planned. I had my peavey along too.


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## banshee67 (Dec 15, 2010)

slowp said:


> I put some little chips in my pickup for air freshener.



im guilty of the same thing with little cookies from a black birch tree  
not familiar with the smell of doug fir though


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## madhatte (Dec 15, 2010)

slowp said:


> I had my peavey along too.



Thumbs up!


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## Cedarkerf (Dec 15, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> im guilty of the same thing with little cookies from a black birch tree
> not familiar with the smell of doug fir though


Doug Fir is a scent from heaven


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2010)

Cedarkerf said:


> Doug Fir is a scent from heaven



Yes, and this tree was alive and standing until Monday night. Mmmmmm. I was a little bit pitchy apres woodcutting.


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## Cedarkerf (Dec 15, 2010)

slowp said:


> Yes, and this tree was alive and standing until Monday night. Mmmmmm. I was a little bit pitchy apres woodcutting.



We put fresh cut chunks around the housemakes great air freshener. Mntngals working on Doug fir scented soap thats how much she likes it.


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## Gologit (Dec 15, 2010)

You got it made...a wife who can cook, run saw, and smells like Doug Fir....man it just doesn't get any better than that.


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## joesawer (Dec 16, 2010)

Cedarkerf said:


> We put fresh cut chunks around the housemakes great air freshener. Mntngals working on Doug fir scented soap thats how much she likes it.



Fresh doug fir smells amazing!
I want some of that soap when she gets it made!


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## Rick Alger (Dec 16, 2010)

One thing you could do next time is cut in from each of the four sides leaving a four by four in the center uncut. Then scope out which side the pinch is going to occur on. Cut another kerf there. Then zip the four by four at max rpm. 

The block should then roll free. I do this fairly often bucking logs for horses.


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## forestryworks (Dec 16, 2010)

Cedarkerf said:


> We put fresh cut chunks around the housemakes great air freshener. Mntngals working on Doug fir scented soap thats how much she likes it.



I'll buy some of that soap.


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## floyd (Dec 16, 2010)

It sounds like it settled down on the saw as you cut. Was there room to cut out the bottom so when the log settles it spreads instead of compressing.


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## joesawer (Dec 16, 2010)

In true end bind there is no settling or releasing of the pressure on one side of the log.
The whole cylinder is compressed. If you cut much you will run into it fairly often.


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## slowp (Dec 16, 2010)

It refused to spread. Just went down poomf. Here's a picture of it yesterday. Yesterday it was more cooperative. I couldn't cut straight though, not even with the Barbie Saw. I think a laser guide would be a good thing for me. 







I would like some Doug fir soap also. Just don't make it like they did in that movie _Fight Club _please. I turned off the movie right there. Ick.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 16, 2010)

slowp said:


> It refused to spread. Just went down poomf. Here's a picture of it yesterday. Yesterday it was more cooperative. I couldn't cut straight though, not even with the Barbie Saw. I think a laser guide would be a good thing for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Looks like a nice sawlog. Could you just do a salami cut after starting two wedges in the top?
John


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## woodfarmer (Dec 16, 2010)

couldn't you have cut down from the top the depth of the bar and then cut up from the bottom to avoid the pinch?


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## slowp (Dec 16, 2010)

woodfarmer said:


> couldn't you have cut down from the top the depth of the bar and then cut up from the bottom to avoid the pinch?



That's what I did. The saw didn't get pinched, well much, but the log would not come apart. I needed a choker or a peavey. I did not have either.


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## slowp (Dec 16, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Looks like a nice sawlog. Could you just do a salami cut after starting two wedges in the top?
> John



Would that be just going down from the top? I'm not familiar with the terminology. 

Part of that tree is in my woodpile as of yesterday. Can't do sawlogs with those so they go for firewood. Sometimes not even that.


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## banshee67 (Dec 16, 2010)

is this a "troll" ?


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## Cedarkerf (Dec 16, 2010)

slowp said:


> I would like some Doug fir soap also. Just don't make it like they did in that movie _Fight Club _please. I turned off the movie right there. Ick.


I havent seen the movie and dont want to know any details. The soap trials will be made with glycerin soap from hobby store with parts of Douglas fir tree Pseudotsuga menziesii var. menziesii .


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## Cedarkerf (Dec 16, 2010)

Gologit said:


> You got it made...a wife who can cook, run saw, and smells like Doug Fir....man it just doesn't get any better than that.


Yup shes even a sweet heart I do have it made.


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## joesawer (Dec 16, 2010)

Cedarkerf said:


> I havent seen the movie and dont want to know any details. The soap trials will be made with glycerin soap from hobby store with parts of Douglas fir tree Pseudotsuga menziesii var. menziesii .





I like glycerin soap too.
It is much better than regular alkaline bath soap.
I have gone in places after cutting doug fir and had women come up and sniff me just to smell it.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 16, 2010)

joesawer said:


> I like glycerin soap too.
> It is much better than regular alkaline bath soap.
> I have gone in places after cutting doug fir and had women come up and sniff me just to smell it.



I'm pretty sure that the smell of Doug Fir on a woodchopper makes a women get her period. Maybe it's just the sweat/fir combo, I don't know, but hairy arm pitted women have told me it's so. And why would I argue?
John


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## joesawer (Dec 16, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I'm pretty sure that the smell of Doug Fir on a woodchopper makes a women get her period. Maybe it's just the sweat/fir combo, I don't know, but hairy arm pitted women have told me it's so. And why would I argue?
> John




Lol I don't know I was talking about cute waitresses and bar maids!
I have very limited experience with hairy arm pit women.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 17, 2010)

joesawer said:


> I have very limited experience with hairy arm pit women.


 The sexiest hairy armpitted women seem to be from Calif, Quebec or Russia.
I think that's where most of the Fir is grown.
John


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## joesawer (Dec 17, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> The sexiest hairy armpitted women seem to be from Calif, Quebec or Russia.
> I think that's where most of the Fir is grown.
> John





I met one deep in the Mojave desert of California, but she was from Germany and pretty dang good lookin. Maybe I had just been in the desert too long lol!


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## flushcut (Dec 17, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> The sexiest hairy armpitted women seem to be from Calif, Quebec or Russia.
> I think that's where most of the Fir is grown.
> John



I hear they grow a lot of Fir down south as well.


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 17, 2010)

flushcut said:


> I hear they grow a lot of Fir down south as well.


 Flush, you may be meaning that Camarillo Brillo where some bugs have made it red.
John


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## Steveo_supremo (Dec 17, 2010)

That's some funny shhhat right there I don't care who ya are.


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## slowp (Dec 17, 2010)

I think you have been fed a line of BS. Totally. 

This wasn't a troll, but a discussion of bucking. And soap. 

Janie, can you put some moisterizer in the soap? Like Dove? I'd like to come up with a Doug fir cologne. I will be taking a chunk to the office. My room is right by the Men's room and sometimes that is not a good thing. They sure spend a lot of time in there....


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## Ramblewood (Dec 17, 2010)

There is a company called "Thymes" that makes a great smelling frasier fir glycerin soap as well as dishwashing goop and other stuff . They can be googled to find a local outlet or it can be ordered online . I used it the other day after cleaning out a deer and washing my hands in the snow a dozen times . The glycerin really helps get rid of the sandpaper skin .
And girls really do like the way it makes you smell, even if they don't like the rest of you .


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## forestryworks (Dec 17, 2010)

http://www.juniperridge.com/sumbc_masterpage.htm

These guys have a Douglas-fir incense along with other woodsy smells.

A hippie place.

My mom always gets Doug-fir tip tea from them.


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## Ramblewood (Dec 17, 2010)

The place I get my vitamins and stuff sells those products . The pretty owner gave me the doug tea to try . Smells great, tastes ok . I got some of the incense today because she was selling it cheap . Takes the smell of chainsaw out of the house .


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## logbutcher (Dec 18, 2010)

Geees, this chatter about balsum soap, hairy women is getting so far off the OP I'm going to get frozen chaps again Yukon. :biggrinbounce2:

Remember that most N.H. women shave. (Maine saying, said to be fact based):hmm3grin2orange:

Back to the real world:
We get fir/spruce blowdowns too often -- heavy crowns with added snow and shallow roots in wet ground here in early winter make for a lot of messy blowdowns. Thick branches, multiple hangers, and those thick trunks under tension and compression to buck. Though freeing with bottom cuts works most of the time, bars get pinched. A few wedges pounded into the cut does the job without more cutting to free the saw. ( Not "wedgies" you fools.)


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## paccity (Dec 18, 2010)

Ramblewood said:


> frasier fir .



let's spell it right, . fraser. i might know how its spelled, for personal reasons.lol.;


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## techdave (Dec 18, 2010)

*Maybe this will help explain how to but "spanners" ??*

...of get me flamed/razzed LOL.

If the problem you are having is bucking a piece that spans a low spot or goes from a high bank down to a roadbed or trailtread here is one way to do it. Sounds more complicated than it is. Of course size everything up for side bends, widowmakers, landslides or limbslides from the uphill side of the road etc

Method is based on "felling" the log so that the upper end settles down onto the ground (or a log you have placed under the upper end). 

But BEFORE you make that "felling" cut you set up your second cut by greatly reducing the diameter of the log where your second cut will be. You make two cuts and take a big wedge out of the bottom of the log. If the log is big enough or the lay is complicated you may have to narrow the log from side to side as well as cutting a wedge out of the bottom.

Then you do the sequence of cuts you would do if you were felling the tree. Take the face out of the top of the log. You are taking the face wide, and about 1/2 way through the diameter. Then undercut to trigger the drop. If the log is big enough cut the offside in about a third so when you do your undercut you are not reaching all the way under the log.

After the felling cuts you have a log or tree laying flat on the ground cut through completely where you made your felling cuts. Where you want to do the second cut is already almost through, and is easy to finish. After the second cut is done you have a piece cut through laying on the fireroad or trail flat on the ground that is only close to the pieces on either side in tow small lines cuz each side already has a wedge out of it.

SOUNDS MORE COMPLICATED THAN IT IS!



Here is a vid of a moderate Cedar I bucked this spring. Look at the span of the log across the trail tread at the end of the first video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veatGBgmbGk&feature=related

Then compare it to the end of the log at the right side of the frame in this video, let it start and then stop it right away for the best view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEKld0g60FA&feature=related

You can see that the wedge was taken out of the right side of the frame, that is not the remnants of a salami cut. 

You can see the log I had the guys stuff under the rootwad so it would not slide down into the trail before I did the "felling" cuts. I ususally can use the wedge from the "second"cut for that if need be.

Sorry I dont have vids of the cuts but I never think to get the guys to film me doing them. Dave.


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## techdave (Dec 18, 2010)

*That should be Cut "spanners"*

totally flat on the ground is a different kettle of fish then, isn't it.


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## Ramblewood (Dec 18, 2010)

paccity said:


> let's spell it right, . fraser. i might know how its spelled, for personal reasons.lol.;



I spelled it the way they spell it on the bottle .
You and the doctor from"Cheers" may spell it differently .


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## slowp (Dec 19, 2010)

*Terminology*

OK, this is not a troll. I am pretty much self taught. So I don't know the names of what I'm doing. I've asked questions of the fallers I'm around, but I have never heard the term Salami Cut. The only place I've heard it is on this forum. So, without straying off the topic, could somebody please tell me what that is? Is it just going from the top down? 

To update, the problem with that log was getting it to separate enough to roll off the road, without any tools or cables or machinery. Once again, the size of the chunks was dictated more on where I could get my saw in at the bottom without hitting the pavement. Those little gaps. 

I was hoping there was a method other than what I did, which was widen the kerf so there was room to get the chunk moving. It was raining hard, and I wanted to get the road clear in a hurry.


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## John Ellison (Dec 19, 2010)

They are talking about angleing the cut instead of making it at 90 deg. to the log. If you see that one end of the log will remain stationary and the other end will drop after the cut, you can angle your cut ever so slightly and it will drop free. Angle it the wrong way and they will lock up tight.


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## slowp (Dec 19, 2010)

Thank you.


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## flushcut (Dec 19, 2010)

Most of the time you are bucking a log for the mill or firewood you try and get it as square possible. A salami cut is a cut that is at a diagonal to the trunk producing a spear point more or less. I think what you have described in your OP is the tree being compressed, closing your cut after it is made. Using a salami cut allows the tree to slide passed itself as said above sometimes fast.


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## forestryworks (Dec 19, 2010)

Ramblewood said:


> I spelled it the way they spell it on the bottle .
> You and the doctor from"Cheers" may spell it differently .



lol, the Fraser Fir was named after John Fraser, the Scottish botanist, not Frasier Crane


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## John Ellison (Dec 19, 2010)

I probably made a terminolgy booboo, but there are different degrees of a "salami cut" .
So slight as to hardly be noticable to let the saw log drop free from the root wad or whatever it is supported on. A more extreme angle is needed on an almost verticle hung up tree.


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## slowp (Dec 19, 2010)

Thinking upon this topic, while washing dishes, I realize that the Salami Cut was shown to me as _*The Secret Trail Opening Cut*. _ I have not used it enough to figure it out on my own. I'm a bit slow and have to do things a few times.


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## paccity (Dec 20, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> lol, the Fraser Fir was named after John Fraser, the Scottish botanist, not Frasier Crane



and simon fraser , for u canuck's. and me.


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## joesawer (Dec 22, 2010)

It seems that many people still do not understand that there are times when the top of the tree is trying to get closer to the bottom of the tree. and there is nothing but compression all the way around the log.
This pressure can be tremendous. and a buck can be completed using some skill and reaming. But without a machine you will never get square bucks apart. If you cut one buck at a sharp enough angle for them to slide past one another you can release the tension and buck as normal. 
But use caution as with any buck you can release a lot of energy and tree movement.


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## Greenwedge (Dec 22, 2010)

Slowp, I understand exactly what you are talking about and do have a cut that will work for you in this situation. The problem is that both ends of the log are holding the chunk you cut out and preventing it from falling or chunking out.....correct? I run into this situation all the time chunking out Blowdown from standing trees I want to cut. Being that the chunks want to fall down start your cut on the underside of the log. Hold your saw so that your bar is at a 45 and cut up 3/4 of the way torward the top.....depending on the size and degree of bind, then from your 45 cut, take out a face cut. Know you got a big ugly angled face cut on the underside of the log.......Ok, now, drop the saw and start hopping up and down on your left leg and try to put your right heel on your left shoulder. If this is somthing you cannot perform, then just pick the saw back up and start kerfing the top of the log at the same angle of your face cut in the underside. This will work well for you and if you get hung up while kerfing the top just thump it with your falling axe and it will fall right out. After you get done with this procedure let me know if it works.......I've never tried it! Just kidding, I promise it works well.


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## slowp (Dec 22, 2010)

I thought all there was to it was cocking the hat? 

I don't hop so good anymore. The last time I hopped, the stump landing zone proved to be rotten, and I converted a header into a shoulderer and did not point my toes so got a deduction in points. My hat stayed on. Nothing was broken or torn so it was a good landing after all. 

I shall try the above mentioned cutting method, not the hopping, next time I run into it. The way we've been getting little wind gusts, that particular root rot area will be providing more firewood for the People and more bucking practice for some of us. 

Thanks for the info. I don't have any fallers working here to pester. Maybe next week.


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## bitzer (Dec 22, 2010)

Greenwedge said:


> Slowp, I understand exactly what you are talking about and do have a cut that will work for you in this situation. The problem is that both ends of the log are holding the chunk you cut out and preventing it from falling or chunking out.....correct? I run into this situation all the time chunking out Blowdown from standing trees I want to cut. Being that the chunks want to fall down start your cut on the underside of the log. Hold your saw so that your bar is at a 45 and cut up 3/4 of the way torward the top.....depending on the size and degree of bind, then from your 45 cut, take out a face cut. Know you got a big ugly angled face cut on the underside of the log.......Ok, now, drop the saw and start hopping up and down on your left leg and try to put your right heel on your left shoulder. If this is somthing you cannot perform, then just pick the saw back up and start kerfing the top of the log at the same angle of your face cut in the underside. This will work well for you and if you get hung up while kerfing the top just thump it with your falling axe and it will fall right out. After you get done with this procedure let me know if it works.......I've never tried it! Just kidding, I promise it works well.



Thats the ticket!


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## slowp (Dec 22, 2010)

Even this one did not want to come apart. I had a peavey handy and that worked. This is out at a place some friends of mine have. 







The tree landed on an old building. I cut a bit on one side, then the other, repeat. Part of it is still on the building.


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## Ramblewood (Dec 24, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> lol, the Fraser Fir was named after John Fraser, the Scottish botanist, not Frasier Crane



My uncle Fraser spelled it your way too but I was just trying to get the name of the soap right . If I didn't have spell-check, I would spell MY name wrong !


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## paccity (Dec 24, 2010)

Ramblewood said:


> My uncle Fraser spelled it your way too but I was just trying to get the name of the soap right . If I didn't have spell-check, I would spell MY name wrong !



no sweat , i'm so used to people putting an i or z in it i should be used to by now.LOL.


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