# How many of you deal with backpain?



## PA. Woodsman

How many of you guys have back pain and back problems? I have bouts with it in my left "sacroiliac" which is off of the pelvis; especially if I lift too much and lift too heavy. I ice it, rub some ointment on it, take a few anti-inflammatory pills and luckily it calms down. But it is getting worse with each episode, and with age. Just wondering if you have something similiar, and what you do to deal with it-thanks!


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## PA Plumber

A little back pain. Sometimes a lot. Work accident from about 8 years ago and an auto accident from April of 2005.

For my situation I have been doing maintenance with Mckenzie Extension excercises. Helps a lot and actually can control the pain most of the time. If it's needed, there is always Advil or Aleve.


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## tree md

Funny you should mention this. I have spent the last 4 nights tossing and turning only being able to sleep for a couple of hours at a time, not due to back pain but severe pain in my right hip joint. I do have back pain from time to time but not so severe since I went to a wide backed saddle.

I had to trim and deadwood several trees last week and had to spend a lot more time in the saddle, working on a rope, than I normally would on removals using my spikes. I have been climbing since 91 and I'm nearly 39 years old. I know I won't be able to climb forever but I still love it and hope to have a few good years of climbing left in me. 

I actually thought about posting a question about the type of saddle I use and see if it may be the cause of my pain. I use just a plain old 4 D Weaver, which is the type of saddle I have used forever, and heard someone mention in a thread that this type of saddle might cause the hip joints to separate. Haven't had a chance to follow up on that but plan to look into it. I have always used the 4 D weavers because that is what I learned on and has always been most comfortable to me. The guy who taught me how to work off a crane bought me a nice saddle with the leg straps and a floating D back in the 90's. I used it for a week and went back to my old Weaver. It was broke in and comfortable. I also like having multiple attachment points, especially since I went to a split tail system.

For the aches and pains after the day is done, I always just drink a beer.  

Antiinflammitories help some for the sleepless nights but I hate to take any pills.


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## Rickytree

*back pain*

have you ever tried a inversion table. I found that it did alot for my lower back


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## dk27

Yup, had spinal surgery last year.had part of disk and vertabra removed. when the disk rupture it partial servered the root nerve to my foot.lived on pain pills for seven weeks before i finally was given a m.r.i. then cleared for surgery by doctors and insurance. leg,foot and back still arent close to what they were. i have not found much relieve from any thing that i've tried. I can only cut and split for an hour or so at time now.But i can at least walk now.guy next door is in a wheelchair after a bike accident years ago.so i can't even think about complaining.DON't take no from the doctors if you believe that there is something seriously wrong,its your body ,you know if it is right or not.come to find out the only reason that they did not want to give me a m.r.i. was that it cost $1200.00. stupid me thats what i thought i had insurance for.


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## JT.S FIREWOOD S

*back pain*

Ihave had 2 discs out and 1 bulging talk about pain I live on painpills for 8 years no Insurance dont know any body that had suregery and said thay was better maybe 1 or 2 it helped


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## Sprig

Hm, been there, still there, but its the least of my worries. I can't do anti-inflammatories or over the counter analgesics, make me sick as a dog, so when I'm really buggered its narcotics but just enough to function. Several things to consider if it is not apparent injury. Firstly and the one I have a major problem with is gluten, wheat being the worst. My dear mom pointed this out to me many years ago and I did a month long test with/without flour products. The conclusions were quite revealing, I'm slightly allergic to gluten and the end result of too much is a toxic like tension in my lower back that near cripples me (no pigging out on pizza ect. ect.). Keeping this aspect under control has lessened my lower back stress 90%+ and a surprising number of friends with similar problems have found great change (for the better) keeping this in mind over the years. I do have physical problems too with lower lumbars but watching my flour intake (esp. whole wheat in my case) has significantly lessened the times it lays me up. Just a thought. The other thing is to drop the gut, lose it (or more than ya got), and keep your stomach muscles in some sort of decent shape, they are the dynamic force that balances our spine and keeps us erect. Of course there are as many different problems as there are people but these couple of things have helped me greatly in maintaining my back as best as it can be. I'm not addressing everyone here, especially those with spinal damage, but for those who are having problems that they can't quite put a finger on this is something you may consider and try for yourself whether lowering your intake of processed and gluten rich foods might help, you could well be surprized. Thats it from me for now and all my best wishes and healing prayers to those that have to go through these sort of pains, it ain't fun and sure as hell no joke, I know.



Serge


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## Dadatwins

Sciatic back pain often shows up as hip problems with those nasty stingers numbing out the hip and leg. Laying on the floor and stretching helps. Sleeping on the floor or on a hard mattress good also. I also use a vibrating mat that goes on a chair or lays flat to relieve it also. I use it in the truck if I am going to be doing a long drive or sitting a lot. It is no fun and does get worse with age. Good luck


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## Sunrise Guy

Sad to say, "Welcome to the club!" Our biz is rife with those who suffer from musculoskeletal pain. I have chronic costochondritis from pole sawing, lopping, climbing, etc. Many nights it wakes me up to the point where I am up and down all night long. I'm used to it, but since it mimics, to a certain extent, the pain felt during a heart attack, it may eventually kill me if an actual heart attack does sneak up on me. Funny thing, because I'm used to chest pain now, my heart rate stays its normal 62-68 beats/minute even when the pain jolts me awake. When I was younger, it used to go up to over 100 just from the anxiety of feeling pains in my chest. I have thought about getting out of our profession to try and feel "normal" again, but I really like the whole tree scene, so I stay put. As for back pain--Oh yeah! There are times when I can barely get up off the couch if I come back from a big climbing/take-down gig and fall asleep after a beer.


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## ropensaddle

Nothing ten cords a day wont cure suck it up and get back to work!
Everyone has back pain and older the worse it just makes me laugh
when some 18 to 20 year old thinks his back hurts. I am not saying
a traumatic event but just pain in general they just don't know the 
meaning of it yet mostly! Of course they're are people that could say that about 45 just not as many! Pa is one of those that does
know about it back pain sucks!


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## PA. Woodsman

*Thanks for the replies!*

I appreciate all of the responses. Since I posted, my back is calming down, like it usually does with treatment and time. I don't know if I pulled a muscle or a ligament; all I know is when I was lifting I felt this sudden onset of pain that lasted several seconds and felt like someone had one end of a muscle or ligament and someone else had the other end and they each pulled like they were playing tug-of-war! What always scares me though, is that these things seem to get worse with time (age). I did a lot of "searching" on this subject, and was suprised to see that most back problems can be helped with things that some of you suggested: streching exercises, tightening up the stomach muscles, keeping the "spare tire" underinflated, etc. According to the "experts", serious back problems aren't that common; but I'm sure that some of you will disagree with them on that. One thing that I've been taking that really seems to help speed the healing is Bromelain, which is derived from pineapples. It helps with inflammation and seems to help the body "recover" faster. It's available at any health food store. Thanks again and best of health to us all!


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## masiman

How old are all of you? I am just curious. Another question I'd ask, do you think there is anything you could have done different to avoid the long term injuries?

I understand the pain you all feel. I have a brother that is a professional athlete. He is tremendously strong, but the sport has taken it's toll. An arthritic back, extensive ankle surgery, etc. All this at age 37. He has a tough road ahead in years to come and I don't envy him.


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## PA Plumber

masiman said:


> How old are all of you? I am just curious.



38


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## ropensaddle

44


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## PA. Woodsman

masiman said:


> How old are all of you? I am just curious. Another question I'd ask, do you think there is anything you could have done different to avoid the long term injuries?



I'm 47. I think that my situation comes from the fact that when I lift, I seem to lift "lefty" and twist the left side of my body a bit. I also spent hours riding in my wife's Rav 4 last week driving to visit her brother, and the guest bed that they had was very small, and I remember I was twisted to the left a lot and was very uncomfortable. I think that it's been one thing after another and I've been pushing myself and finally your body says "enough" and you get hurt. Once this really calms down, I'm gonna do some of the light exercises that I've read about. I think they'll help. And I hope that your brother finds some relief-it (pain) can really take the joy out of life.


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## nytreeman

44,climb almost every day,back is the one thing that doesnt bother much,but do have alot of joint pain,carpal tunnel,always something hurting,lol,i actually get more sore/stiff if I'm not as busy.


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## nytreeman

PA. Woodsman said:


> most back problems can be helped with things that some of you suggested: streching exercises, tightening up the stomach muscles, keeping the "spare tire" underinflated, etc.




Keep your abs tight and it does take alot off your back,no gut here,and stretching def helps,and a few beers at the end of the day too,lol


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## chainsawchick67

when my dad was younger he used to do tree work and had a lot of issues with his back going 'out' he quit tree work, and the pain and all was still ther, so he had his first surgery at about age. . .33(im guessing) and it was not good, he had 2 bulging, 1 herniated, and 1 slipped disc, so they went in and cut off the excess, that did not fix anything. at about age 34 or 35, he had a second surgery to fuse his spine with 8 screws and 2 rods, then they put a piece of bone from your hip in the gaps and in a sence, it 'welds' your spine solid. This was also not a sucess, the one screw got put through too far and he now has pemanent nerve damage and he is partially paralized in his right leg. No joke, if i tickle both feet he cannot feel a tickle sensation in the right foot. 

NOW, on the other had, my grandpa had the same thing done, as fas are fusing and all that. . .and he is as good as new, The surgery is a blessing if you get a good doctor, my dad is now has permanent scarring on his nerves.


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## tree md

38 here, soon to be 39. 

One thing I have always heard is use it or lose it. Stay active. I have friends that are my age that work behind a desk who are overweight and in terrible shape. I know some of them look at me with a wry grin, Knowing that I am a climber, and think that I'm nothing more than an overgrown teenager. That's just fine with me. I still feel like an overgrown teenager (if only in my mind). Stay active. Set fun goals for yourself. I love to hunt in the fall and winter and always begin a workout regiment a couple months before season starts. I work hard for a living but it's still important to get your heart rate up a few times a week with cardiovasculars. I am planing a primitive elk hunt in Colorado next year. That gives me a lot of incentive to stay in shape. 

Don't smoke and be moderate in your drinking.


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## Jumper

I have degnerative disc disorder throughout my back, and was told I had the spine of a 60 year old eight years ago when I was 40 and had suffered a crushed disc from a parachute landing that went really bad in a hurry.

I take celebrex twice a day for my back and feet which generally keeps things under control, and T3s or Percocet on very rare occasions when the pain gets to me, which is not often. Usually a few sessions of physio are most helpful. My time in Afghanistan did not help as I was sleeping on an Army cot for nine months. 

When I was injured I had physio but also accupuncture which really helped with the acute pain I was experiencing. The first time it hurt, I think because I was tense, but the follow up visits were no biggie. 

Also make sure you have a good mattress and turn it regularly.

I agree use it or lose it. I would play hockey seven days a week but for this job. 

As far as long term injuries not jumping out of a plane 800 times would have helped. LOL


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## Jumper

Sprig said:


> Hm, been there, still there, but its the least of my worries. I can't do anti-inflammatories or over the counter analgesics, make me sick as a dog, so when I'm really buggered its narcotics but just enough to function. Several things to consider if it is not apparent injury. Firstly and the one I have a major problem with is gluten, wheat being the worst. My dear mom pointed this out to me many years ago and I did a month long test with/without flour products. The conclusions were quite revealing, I'm slightly allergic to gluten and the end result of too much is a toxic like tension in my lower back that near cripples me (no pigging out on pizza ect. ect.). Keeping this aspect under control has lessened my lower back stress 90%+ and a surprising number of friends with similar problems have found great change (for the better) keeping this in mind over the years. I do have physical problems too with lower lumbars but watching my flour intake (esp. whole wheat in my case) has significantly lessened the times it lays me up. Just a thought. The other thing is to drop the gut, lose it (or more than ya got), and keep your stomach muscles in some sort of decent shape, they are the dynamic force that balances our spine and keeps us erect. Of course there are as many different problems as there are people but these couple of things have helped me greatly in maintaining my back as best as it can be. I'm not addressing everyone here, especially those with spinal damage, but for those who are having problems that they can't quite put a finger on this is something you may consider and try for yourself whether lowering your intake of processed and gluten rich foods might help, you could well be surprized. Thats it from me for now and all my best wishes and healing prayers to those that have to go through these sort of pains, it ain't fun and sure as hell no joke, I know.
> 
> 
> 
> Serge




My friend has just found out he is allergic to wheat gluten as well. Watching his intake has meant a dramtic improvement in his condition.


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## ropensaddle

Use it or lose it is right the worst days seem right after
heavy use of the splitting maul. I climb and remove trees 
and trim no problem never hurt myself in twenty two years.
Get me on the ground I turn in to a walking disaster and seem
hellbent for punishment. I when up there look down and not
going fast enough when I hit the ground I'm saying lets skit it
and look like a tornado brush flying wood up and when the jobs
done go home to pay the piper! When I first started tree work
my foreman had to tell me to slow down as I ran with brush and
wood he said quit racing! I really don't race I just want to get it 
done so can look at the accomplishment and marvel over a days
work. Have always been that way until last ten years have had 
to cut back as the pain was too intense but even at half pace
I sometimes make youngsters cry trying to keep up!


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## Sprig

Jumper said:


> My friend has just found out he is allergic to wheat gluten as well. Watching his intake has meant a dramatic improvement in his condition.


Does not surprise me, the big problem is is that many so-called 'doctors' get so hung up on the prescription kick-backs thing that the end up refuting obvious evidence on the basics, diet, exercise, watching for allergies, etc.. My own doctor is a gem, own her own practice for about 15 years but is one of the rare ones that keeps on learning after they have graduated med school. Years ago when I told her what I felt was happening she didn't just Pooh-Pooh it, she hit the web and the books and figured out that I may have a point and stopped trying to prescribe bs (which was making me ill (er) ) and got on my case about da gut (rightly so too I might add). I have found that far too often, especially with older doctors, that they become set in their ways and will often take the easy way out, or the way that will make the more money, whatever, they end up with a 'drugs will cure it' attitude and slough off anything else that works as 'oddity' rather than actually doing any research. For years (since the early '50's I believe) doctors who were into orthomolecular treatments and studies (that is based on a system that takes into account vitamin levels, allergies, fitness levels, etc., as a part of over-all health) have argued that many of our general ills are diet and environmentally based, the 'old school' med professionals tried to shoot them down for years but are now, begrudgingly it seems at times, starting to accept that there is indeed a point to this. Unfortunately huge pressures from the (trillion dollar!) pharmaceutical industry keep so much in the dark and turns other-wise conscientious practitioners into pill pushing flunkies, that we, as people in general, become misinformed and complacent in finding out about our own health, it is a boon to them, hey, sickness is huge business.
I am just blatherin' on here as I am wont to do sometimes but it is something that really bugs me, has for a long time, but then I feel it has made me a bit smarter too as I will now take the time to look into what is affecting me as well as taking pro's advice: A good dose of skepticism can be a healthy thing sometimes, taking control of your own self in certain circumstances, when all else fails, can result in positive changes. I am not saying to ignore what medicine has to offer, but to not accept just one prognosis if other views exist, check it all out, inform yourself, keep educating you, and those around you.
Now this really is a bit o' blather so I end for now, sorry folks, got carried away :deadhorse: 

 (talk about the long way to say "It doesn't surprise me Jumper." sheesh!)

Serge


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## chainsawchick67

Jumper said:


> I have degnerative disc disorder throughout my back, and was told I had the spine of a 60 year old eight years ago when I was 40 and had suffered a crushed disc from a parachute landing that went really bad in a hurry.
> 
> I take celebrex twice a day for my back and feet which generally keeps things under control, and T3s or Percocet on very rare occasions when the pain gets to me, which is not often.




this is what my dad had and i think my grandpa too, they said it is genetic. thats BAD news for me(and my brother)!!! I am 20 and my lil bro is 16 and they are already talking about keeping and eye on our spines so hopefully the second something doesnt seem right, they can fix it befor it gets to the stage where dads got to. Also, i just found out he was only 30 when he had his spine fused together, not 35.


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## Sunrise Guy

54 here. I weigh three pounds less than I did in high school, 152 now, and my body fat ranges from 8-12% when read electromagnetically on one of those fancy scales. I feel far better when I'm on the job than when my butt is stuck at home, like it has been lately thanks to Austin becoming Auseattle, TX. due to non-stop rain. I got so hot to work that I bought a rain suit, went out and did a pruning gig in the rain. Great fun, not! I accept my aches and pains as job-related, for the most part, but I don't sweat 'em as they go away when I'm working or staying active on vacations. When my gf and I hit Vermont to make maple syrup a few months ago, I felt great.


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## beowulf343

A bit of backpain now and then, but who doesn't have it in this business. Usually a quick trip to the chiropractor takes care of the problem for me. The biggest thing for me though is what shoes i'm wearing. My wesco's are great for in the tree or if i'm in the woods all day felling. But if i have to do alot of walking in them, i'll feel it in my back that night. A lower heeled workboot for brush dragging really helps my back out.


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## PA. Woodsman

*Spent the better part of the night in the ER!*

Well I WAS feeling better with my back until last night-I awoke around 11 with pain in the back of my thigh that I can only describe as PAINFUL! No matter if I layed down, sat up, walked around I could not shake this cramping, painful pain running down the back of my left leg; so the wife took me to the local ER, and they checked me and said that it seems like Sciatica-inflammation of the sciatic nerve. I told them that I had injured my back several days earlier, and it was getting better, now this developed! They said that it could be from a slightly bulging disc, but they think that it's just the sciatic nerve acting up from the strain. So they gave me a prescription for some Vicidon for pain and 600 mg Ibuprofen for the inflammation, and no work for 3 days. I'm going to see my orthopedic man tomorrow; called him and told him the symptoms and he said "we'll get you back in shape". I learned that the Sciatic nerve is the largest, longest nerve in the body, and is VERY PAINFUL when inflamed! The best way that I can describe how my left leg feels now is unstable and it feels like my foot is asleep!


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## lees trees

*surgury is next*

been down alot with my back. Thought I got plenty of exersise on the job. well, you dont. In my twenties we would jump off roofs rather than climb down, thirties I can lift and throw logs on the truck like nobody step in a hole and back goes out. Anyway my chiropractor can't help me any more. Then my mom, who is not a Dr. or an arborist says you need to strech even that dumb cat streches before it does anything. oh yea like football practice. so thats what I do and I'm on a roll. Feel good can do some of the dumb things I use to. good luck


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## lees trees

*surgury is next*

been down alot with my back. Thought I got plenty of exercise on the job. well, you don't. In my twenties we would jump off roofs rather than climb down, thirties I can lift and throw logs on the truck like nobody step in a hole and back goes out. Anyway my chiropractor can't help me any more. Then my mom, who is not a Dr. or an arborist says you need to stretch even that dumb cat stretches before it does anything. oh yea like football practice. so thats what I do and I'm on a roll. Feel good can do some of the dumb things I use to. good luck


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## sawinredneck

38, herniated disc, L4. They won't do surgery because I can still walk (most days). About 30 pounds overweight, smoke to much, drink so I can sleep. I tore it up around 17 and have dealt with it since, it's no fun!!!
TAKE CARE OF IT NOW!!!!! See a Chiropractor ASAP!!!!!


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## mckeetree

My routine is stretch in bed then 400mg ibuprofen, run the shower hot on my back then about 6:30 AM when I leave I twist each way as far as I can in the truck.


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## JT.S FIREWOOD S

*back pain*

47


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## PA. Woodsman

Saw my orthopedic man today. He did some "strength/resistance" tests on me, and he thinks that it might be a disc that is pressing on the Sciatic nerve, which then causes this numb/weak leg feeling. So I had my first experience with an MRI today, and we'll know what that showed this Thursday. I guess that's the best way to actually see and know what is going on back there. We'll see...


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## chainsawchick67

i have found the best way to relieve a LOT of pain in my [lower] back is to lay on my right side with my right arm to rest my head on then put the left knee to the ground in front of your body and at the SAME TIME rollback your left shoulder and TRY to touch it to the ground behind you, then i switch sides. SOmetimes it cracks, but eben if it doesnt crack, it feelsreally good


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## johnha

PA. Woodsman said:


> ... So I had my first experience with an MRI today, and we'll know what that showed this Thursday. I guess that's the best way to actually see and know what is going on back there. We'll see...



An imaging test can *help* to pinpoint the cause. Problem is, most of the general population will show disc problems on a MRI even if they have no symptoms whatsoever. Sometimes a problem will not show up on a MRI and additional tests like a CT, myelogram, or discogram may be necessary.

I hope your doc finds and helps you resolve your issues.


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## PA. Woodsman

johnha said:


> An imaging test can *help* to pinpoint the cause. Problem is, most of the general population will show disc problems on a MRI even if they have no symptoms whatsoever. Sometimes a problem will not show up on a MRI and additional tests like a CT, myelogram, or discogram may be necessary.
> 
> I hope your doc finds and helps you resolve your issues.



Thanks-I saw the image today, and the L5 disc is "slightly" ruptured; you can see it pressing on the sciatic nerve. I start therapy tomorrow, and I'm going to see a chiropractor. I don't have a lot of pain, just that I still have some weakness and "clumsiness" in my left leg from the Sciatica. He's pretty confident that conservative measures will correct this.


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## Spockbob

I am 48 and have been climbing for about 35 years. I fell 75ft, the rope was around a limb and stopped me 2 inches from the ground going head first, I fell 40 ft headfirst and broke both arms, and I fell 19 ft and landed on my back. Back pain is like once a year for a couple days, but my problem is neck pain, degenerative arthritis in 3 disks. Been taking 4 oxycodone a day for several years. They don't affect my work, but actually help me get it done. Going to Cleveland clinic aug 08 to my 4th pain doc.They are discussing cutting select nerves that are causing pain.


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## TaoTreeClimber

I have some wicked SI pain in the exact same location some times. It comes and goes. I have noticed that the more active I try and stay the less it becomes a nuscence. I had a wicked parachute jump in high winds in the army and it separated the little fused joints in my SI when I landed on my canteen. That was almost 15 years ago but it is one of those things that is unfortunately gonna get worse with time. All in all I feel pretty good considering all the torture I have put my body through. 800 mg. of Motrin (Ranger candy) usually does the trick, but when it gets really annoying I break out the Naproxin. I have found that sleeping on a good bed is also paramount. 

Kenn


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## PA. Woodsman

*Thanks all for your answers and stories!*

I had my first physical therapy today and it seemed to be helping already. They put me through a battery of exercise machines to stretch and strengthen my back and leg muscles. Then I saw a chiropactor who stretched me out and did some electrical stimulation on my Sacroiliac area. This also helped. I also bought a "weightlifter's belt" to help me with lifting-the chiro suggested this and I wore it today and it also helped. They also told me to sleep with a pillow between my legs and ankles if I sleep on my side; if I sleep on my back I am to put the pillow under my knees; this is to take the strain off of the SI area. Everyone said that I have a "slight" ruptured disc, and I should be fine with what we're doing. What is the worst to deal with is the "sensations" in the left leg: weakness, clumsiness, tingling, etc. But this too will pass, I'm told. And they said that more people have back problems than we all realize. Thanks again for your replies!


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## Jumper

TaoTreeClimber said:


> I had a wicked parachute jump in high winds in the army and it separated the little fused joints in my SI when I landed on my canteen.
> Kenn



Ouch! 106 static line jumps here. And about 700 freefalls on top of that did not help. Gotta love those full equipment jumps!


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## TaoTreeClimber

Jumper said:


> Ouch! 106 static line jumps here. And about 700 freefalls on top of that did not help. Gotta love those full equipment jumps!




Batalion level airfield siezures suck. Nothing like jumpin at O'Dark thirty with 700 other screamin idiots onto the tarmac. Gotta watch out for those runway marker lights that stick up about 18" off the ground. 

Kenn


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## RCR 3 EVER

*2 surgeries -no help*

Tried to save money by cutting up oak planks from pallets for shelves more than 20 yrs ago. Since than lost my real job in process, had 2 surgeries for 2 disks, last one was a fusion by a :censored: quack that resulted in more emerg. surg. for a massive infection. He also took too much bone graft out so hip is in constant pain with swelling in graft area even though surg. was 7 years ago. Permanent scarring is wrapped around the nerve root at L5-S1
I am now on total Permanent disability. And with that I get parking privileges  
Left foot has 2 toes totally numb, severe pain when lifting anything heavier that the new Stihl 361. Sitting for more than an hour between cutting stops the work for the day. Lying down definitely kills further walking or working at all for day.
I am limited to only a few hours moderate cutting time with very limited bending over. Standing still on hard surfaces is limited to an hour at most and sitting I can handle more time. But if driving time is more than 4-5 hours I will need several days lying down. It is at best 1 or 2 days at 3 or 4 hour per day than a day more of rest between at least. If pushed beyond time more downtime.
I am on numerous heavy painkillers but try to limit their use when driving which gives more pain.
I tried the Oxycontin which knocked out the pain but made me loopy and unaware:crazy1: 
Phys ther. has not worked out very well as they increase pace at end and make the problem worse. Also swelling on hip grows from irritation. 
Sciliatic shots do not work had 4
Spinal block shots do not work had 6
I am still walking with cane and people tell me to try another surgery for a battery powered stimulator they have heard works. Yeah right! I will wait until I can not walk or pain is unbearable.
Sorry for the ranting.


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## Sprig

RCR I hear ya man, your work schedual sounds darned familiar, ditto on the hill-billy heroin, me too, pretty crude stuff. In your case I am wondering if you have given any thought to glucosamine based products. It is a natural anti-inflamatory and when taken with calcium, vit. D, and in general with a proper diet, has been know to help in both pain and bone healing. There are a couple of products out there that claim to help re-build by creating a proper matrix for the bone growth, always worth a try, can't hurt any worse, have a good chat with your pharmasist and local health shops. One that worked for me was called Recover, recc'd for post operation healing, it worked for me for a while but I got tired of the runs, I did however feel that it helped me. As I'm sure you've been told, smoking, booze, coffee etc., do nothing to aid healing as they tend to deplete oxygen levels.
I'd probably be doing much better without any of it, regardless, aged decrepitude ensues. For all, stay away from long-term T3 usage, it'll rot your guts and the caffine in it will slow any healing, just a small 0.02$ worth fer da evening.

 and eatcher vities & veggies!!

Serge


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## belgian

45, twice herniated disc surgery on L4-L5, and still have a lot of sciatic pain in my left leg. There are days I don't feel anything, other days my lower back and foot tickle like [email protected] Back pain sucks, but you learn to live with it, I suppose. 
But like some other members said, being busy is a good remedy to keep your muscles in shape.


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## oldsaw

Four herniated discs, two are near surgical but I've left them alone. Messed up left shoulder, and genetically bad knees. I'm 45 as well, and the days when I wake up and an in only minor pain, I take as a victory. On the 1-10 scale, this morning is about a 3 or 4...good morning.

Mark


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## safeT1st

*Back pain- THIS IS WORTH READING*

Firstly, anyone that says suck it up and get on with life has never experienced severe back pain ! Very few doctors, if any, can truly answer questions about cause and relief of back pain . The spine and its operation is not yet fully understood . I ruptured a disc 14 yrs ago and crawled into emergency on my hands and knees . Woke up about 48 hrs later when the demerol wore off screaming . Nurse later explained what I was experiencing was second only to severe burn victims . 3 weeks later I was able to begin rehab which lasted 6 months and have had to maintain certian routines ever since . I would like to tell you that , from my experience , with the right care, the pain can be eliminated. I have no faith in chiropractors but believe physio-therapy and proper self care will gradually diminish symptoms . From my experience here are some of the things that will free you from pain-over time. Any time you feel a twinge you must learn to stop activity and find a quiet place to lie flat on your back with knees propped up on a stool or such . This removes all load from spine and allows muscles to relax . You can place a small pad under small of back to provide a liitle lumbar support. Use ice in small of back to reduce inflammation if it's a bad bout . Always ice before heat ! Heat is used to re-open blood vessels and allow blood back in to deliver it's healing properties to area . Heat is pointless unless you have reduced swelling and inflammation. Learn to watch your posture , especially when seated and don't sit for too long at one spell,use lumbar support in vehicle . Don't hesitate to use some pain killers when you need them , the muscles will only continue to spasm if you are not relaxed . Try to sleep on your side at night with a firm , thick pillow between your knees. This is crucial to remove strain on back and is probably the best thing you can do for yourself. Also ensure you have a good mattress,how many of us spend money so freely on saws , gear ect but use the same bed for 10 yrs ? Check your footwear ! Make sure your boots/shoes provide good support-throw out all your cheap shoes and worn sneakers ! If you find the pain is bad at night as you mentioned or when you wake up get a new bed ! Firmer mattress . Once you are on the mend advise all your work mates that you have to be careful and they will help to remind and watch you to be just that ; careful.


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## safeT1st

*Worth reading continued...*

The real key is to learn to recognize the smallest re-lapse and address it immediately . You may have some tough times over the next few years with re-lapses or you may not . Do not try to work through any . You may find yourself on your hands and knees wishing you hadn't been born . From my experience , as years go by , the symptoms subside and you can return to normal , I have been without pain for yrs now but still take great care . Drink lots of water to lubricate joints and be espescially careful in am before you are limbered up . Good luck and know that there will be an end to your pain.


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## Spockbob

*Update on neck pain*

I went to the Cleveland clinic wednesday and saw 2 doctors. They prescribed flexeril and Physical therapy and they are going to do six facet joint injections, then burn the nerves where they attach to the vertebrates. In the future I will have to have 3 vertebrates fused.they use metal, not bone in cleveland. Don't take flexeril before work, it makes me very sleepy and dizzy.


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## treespec

*Still climbing*

I'm 60 next month and still do all the climbing. Have been for 27 yrs. Herniated an L-5 26 yrs. ago-did not have surgery. Gotta watch how much I lift. Fell off a crane hook ( rope got yanked and wasn't tied in right) on 9/11. Hit compacted A. Pine needles 32' down. Landed flat on back. No major injury. Some small fractures. Back to work 1 month later. Getting short on my "9 lives" will retire in 5 yrs. if can still climb between now and then. Only weigh 156 and 5' 11" tall. Exercise is the key, I love my job. treespec


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## PA. Woodsman

*Physical therapy is going good!*

Just wanted to pass along that physical therapy is really doing a good job on strengthening me and bringing me "back". The worst part of this whole deal is the sciatica-it really can be painful, especially at night when you lay down! I tried the anti-inflammatory route for a while until my stomach and guts felt like they were gonna explode, then talked to the orthopedic doctor tonight and got a cortisone shot in the backside where it hurt. That'll take the inflammation down without killing my guts! Give rehab a try-the exercise machines that they have are wonderful. Getting stronger every day...


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## Jumper

Get some Celebrex, very easy on the stomach. I also take indocid when I get
a gout flare up, works great, but you feel like puking for hours after taking it.


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## firehunter988

I have Degenerative Disc Disease. some days i have no back pain. some days i cant stand up straight. i have had back pain since i was about 13. i am 31 now. thats why i cant carry around a big saw. my dad cant take care of the Ole homestead with out help. and of coarse i am more than happy to help. he just has to supply the pain pills. i work for a ambulance svc. 2 24HR shifts a week i love it. but the point is don't ever give up. i have seen what happens when people just give up. the go down hill fast. on the other hand my partner is 65 yrs young. sure he has to go piss alot, but he is still hard at it. when he is not working here he is in his woodworking shop. well i have rambled enough. Chris


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## PA. Woodsman

*I did some research*

I found some very interesting information that relates to my situation and maybe some of you guys. I read on several occasions that a ruptured disc does NOT automatically have to be the cause of Sciatica, which is what is still hanging on with me. I saw the MRI picture of my disc, and it is "slightly" ruptured just as the report says. I also saw an MRI picture of a person who had 3 very badly herniated discs, yet had NO pain or symptoms at all! My point is, I think that the pain is mostly muscular, not because of a "slightly" ruptured disc. I read that if that was true, everyone over the age of 50 would have Sciatica because after 50 just about everyone has some sort of disc wear. I believe that my problem was/is from straining the large muscle that runs from under your buttocks up to your midback. But I'm still going through with the therapy-it'll only help make me stronger and hopefully avoid serious future problems!


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## RCR 3 EVER

*Bulging disks vs muscles*

I had 1 Herniated disk (L5-S1)plus 1 bulging disk (L4?), 1 had previous surgery the other directly above it. I went to the top back pain clinic in MI a 55 min. drive. (the drive alone was a pain)
They said pain was in my head and all the pain was due to muscle spasm and loss of motion.I thoougt they were a..:censored: but decided to try their program for some improvement, I was put on a vigorous program. During the program I had slight improvement briefly despite their counseling sessions?:bang: Near the end I went downhill fast and still they insisted muscles only. Several weeks later it took me 30 min to walk to the house from yard during a thuderstorm a distance of 75' ft. I then had 2nd surgery I can now walk better but am still screwed up due to :censored: quack surgeon.
3 weeks ago I did 2hrs per day for 3 days during a period of a week of wood cutting only no lifting of firewood logs. I am still recuperating, I can stand for only a few minutes and sit for max of 2 hrs. I am unable to carry the 361 chainsaw for more than a few yards at best. I would not trust myself cutting because of the increased dosages of Vicodin ES despite all the PPE.
Muscle pain contributes to back pain-yes, but was NOT the cause of it at least in my case!
And people ask why don't I try another surgery?   :angry2:


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## lees trees

I feel your pain trust me it hurts so bad I grit my teeth and only laugh haven't got cut yet though. my sycotic nerve was pinched and I had to rescue some one that rolled a 4wheeler in my pond and I could not run and it was life or death and I could not run no matter what! thank god they were OK but I wasn't. then someone tells you its in your head! Those of us with these back problems have to learn to deal we have no choice. what I understand about my herniated disc is the muscles hold them in place and when the muscles are weak the disc shifts and the muscles work even harder to compensate cramp get inflamed and make me pathetic. I have my own form of physical therapy that works for me I feel great and I the strongest fastest mover on the job at 44 I feel like I don't have back problems


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## RCR 3 EVER

Problem is not muscles for me or at least they are a very minor role.
My back problem is 2 surgeries that resulted in lots of scar tissue wrapping around the nerve roots and impinging them,thus causing back pain,leg pain, and foot numbness.
I also have disk degeneration disease.
I am also tall and more tall people have back problems due to spaces between the vertebrae being larger.
The area (hip) where the excess fusion bone graft was taken is also extremely sore to this day 7 years after surgery. I have difficulty touching the area or sometimes lying down on my back. It is IMPOSSIBLE to lie on stomach at any time!

I watch my 80 yr old dad do the wood chopping and other stuff I wish I could do.:bang: This is depressing as he has had a heart attack and should not be working so hard.
 My wife also does most chores that I should be doing or working in the woods.Also depressing to watch her do so much work on her own.

I do what I can until I feel too much pain usually after a couple of days or even hours depending on task,then I stop and rest for weeks.

Enough complaining:deadhorse: I just have to live with it until I can not stand pain no longer and decide options available to me at that time a far as more surgeries are concerned.

This topic is depressing


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## PA. Woodsman

*Therapy WAS going good...*

2 weeks ago I posted that therapy was going good for me-they had me on 15 different machines using weights, resistance etc. But last week I felt that something wasn't right-almost like I was over-doing it, and frankly I didn't feel like going anymore. I felt like they were training me to try out for the Olympic weightlifting team! I discussed this with them, and the one therapist said that maybe it's too much now because I'm working full-time and going to therapy; I felt the same way, so I talked to the doctor, and he didn't think that anything unusual was going on and "increased" my workout both repetition and weight-wise! I did the routine, and within 1 hour of completing therapy I could hardly walk and was in so much pain that I had to take more pain pills. I didn't go this past Saturday-you couldn't PAY me enough to go back there. I would've been shot for the whole weekend if I'd went. Needless to say, I discussed this with a physical therapist that I've seen in the past, and I'm going to start going there tomorrow. The other guy (orthopedic surgeon) really disappointed me-what kind of doctor doesn't listen to their patient, when the patient knows how he feels and is listening to his own body. He's done....


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## belgian

RCR 3 EVER said:


> Problem is not muscles for me or at least they are a very minor role.
> My back problem is 2 surgeries that resulted in lots of scar tissue wrapping around the nerve roots and impinging them,thus causing back pain,leg pain, and foot numbness.
> I



RCR, this is exactly what I have on L4-L5, with exactly the same symptoms iiii

I don't have the degenerative disc dicease however, and can still work fine if it's not too heavy. However, my last surgery dates from 09/2005 and have starteg getting trouble again in november last year. Because of the foot numbness (especially when I am seated), I am reconsidering a third surgery, but my surgeon prefers to wait as long as the pain is bearable. 

Just hoping it will get better, but the pain comes and goes. Will wait and see.


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## RCR 3 EVER

belgian said:


> RCR, this is exactly what I have on L4-L5, with exactly the same symptoms iiii
> 
> I don't have the degenerative disc dicease however, and can still work fine if it's not too heavy. However, my last surgery dates from 09/2005 and have starteg getting trouble again in november last year. Because of the foot numbness (especially when I am seated), I am reconsidering a third surgery, but my surgeon prefers to wait as long as the pain is bearable.
> 
> Just hoping it will get better, but the pain comes and goes. Will wait and see.



Numbness in foot advanced to include 2 toes immediatly after surgery,not just the large one. It has progressed along the foot since then. Leg pain started very soon within months of surgery and that was 6 years ago. Pain is increasing, work level decreasing and amount of rest time between work sessions has increased dramatically. But it is still bearable with sufficient Meds. I DO NOT WANT MORE SURGERY:bang: :bang: :bang:


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## Brushwacker

I am 48, for many years my back would hurt usually during the heat of summer for anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months . The morning was the worse and getting shoes and socks on could be very challenging. It would get better through the day if I worked phsically but lifting was limited.
Usually by late summer or early fall it would be gone.
One summer about 5 years ago a very intense pain developed in my knee.
about 2 nights later the definition of pain was far from the what I had knowed it all my life. The previous backpains were mild discomforts in comparison. I rarely go to a doctor and by the time I went the worse was over. The doctor never pinpointed the cause. I try to be sensitive to any thing abnormal when working and adjust my activities to give my knee a break when it gives me warning signs which generally starts with fatigue in the area. I seldom take medication and if I do most likely it would be when its time to sleep.


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## PA. Woodsman

*Went to a physical therapist tonight*

Tonight was my first visit with a physical therapist who told me that I do have a ruptured disc which is pressing on a nerve which is causing the weakness and odd feelings in my left leg. Unlike the orthopedic doctor who had me lifting weights until the cows came home, this guy started me on ONE exercise-that's it. He said that this exercise is very important and has been proven to pull discs back into their proper place. Lie face down on the floor with your arms extended in front of you (not fully extended, though) and push up with your arms so that your upper body ONLY lifts off the floor-your arms will be straightened out and they do the work-don't pull-up with your back. Your waist and legs will be flat yet, but your upper torso will be curved. Hold this for about 5 seconds and lower your self back down flat-rest for a second or two and repeat exercise. He said that I'm to do this 200 everyday in segments, and it will help re-align the injured disc. We'll see!! :jester:


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## lees trees

your gonna be a expert in back-pain because you have to. when the chiropractor looked at my MRI he would not treat me. Sent me to the surgeon well I didn't wanna go there. Almost went I glad I didn't I got my own stretching and exercise doesn't take long and I feel so good I forget to do them and my old friend comes back. I read an article on "Endothil-CR" its for fixing hurt mussels so I go to GNC and get it I don't know if it works or placebo when my back flairs up I take one or two a day for 2 or 3 days at the moment this works.


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## John Paul Sanborn

lees trees said:


> Almost went I glad I didn't I got my own stretching and exercise doesn't take long and I feel so good I forget to do them and my old friend comes back.




I went to a PT and got a series of exercises that really helped. I have 2 problem disks in my lower back and I need to keep my lower abs tight, since the connect to the lower back muscles.

One mistake I was making was concentrating on the stretch alone, with no contraction movements in the routine. And here I was a body builder for 5 years and not doing a well rounded program.


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## Bermie

Dealing with it today! Self inflicted

Little put-put engine konked out going across the harbour this morning... (brain fart moment, I had not turned on the gas, 20 years on the water, you'd think I'd know better!:bang: ) Pulling and pulling on the starter cord, the ghost came back to haunt me, oww, my back! Trip to my physio and start doing those exercises again...you should never stop doing them once you've had back problems.
And I wanted to do the trees in may garden today:bang: :bang:


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## 70t351w

I had a pain in my upper (shoulder blade area) that sent pain down my left arm. My left tricep muscle, chest and forearm muscles twitched and spazed-out for about four weeks. And if I sat still the pain was very bad. Now I dont have any strength at all in my left tricep.


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## PA. Woodsman

*Sounds like the Scapula area*



70t351w said:


> I had a pain in my upper (shoulder blade area) that sent pain down my left arm. My left tricep muscle, chest and forearm muscles twitched and spazed-out for about four weeks. And if I sat still the pain was very bad. Now I dont have any strength at all in my left tricep.



That sounds like the Scapula area. A lot of things connect back there, and when that hurts it's very painful-I have that on occasion, too. I don't want to scare you, but not having any strength in your tricep isn't good; but I'm sure that it can be "restored" with the proper rehab exercises. I'd see a doctor and inquire about some strengthening exercises; you don't want to let that go. Good luck, I'm sure that you'll be fine.


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## Bermie

70t351w said:


> I had a pain in my upper (shoulder blade area) that sent pain down my left arm. My left tricep muscle, chest and forearm muscles twitched and spazed-out for about four weeks. And if I sat still the pain was very bad. Now I dont have any strength at all in my left tricep.



Ummm...and what have you done about it??
Your car or saw breaks down, you fix it, shouldn't you do the same for your body?


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## Jumper

My American relatives could not afford to see the doctor unless they were really ill. Shortly after moving to Canada my Uncle discovered he had major arterial blockages in both his legs and neck, and lymphoma. My aunt needed two cateract procedures. If they were still in the US he likely would be dead and she would be blind........the US has a great medical system so long as you have insurance or are rich. Those that are neither are SOL.


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## gitrdun_climbr

*Physical/Sports massage the way to go*

Sad but true Jumper.

First step into the first spar of the morning yesterday and what-do-ya-know, kickout...I was only one foot off the ground but a fine opportunity for the 'back-reaper' to pay me yet another visit!

About once a year or two since highschool sports I strain a tiny lower muscle attached to or travelling under the pelvis in my lower left back just next to the spine. At 34 the pain seems to linger more than the one or two days it used to but it does go away. PA Woodsman physical therapy/sports massage therapy is definitely the way to go. I barter with a really good one and unlike doctors at the hospital, he can root through the tissue and identify EXACTLY what is wrong...then IMMEDIATELY implement scar reduction, diet/exercise information, etc., all wrapped up into 30 minutes. With scar reduction he has 'healed' two tennis elbows, hip joint pain, lower back pain, finger pain! Scar tissue can be erroded away with heat/massage.

For those with hip pain, check the length of your legs!!! I was getting hip pain and within 30 seconds on the table he showed me how one of my legs was longer than the other and I needed a back adjustment. The longer leg was actually jamming and rolling in the top of my hip joint. His adjustment brought the length difference down from 1 full inch to 1/16th of an inch. Hip pain cleared in 48 hours!!!

Sorry so long
:monkey:


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## Haywire Haywood

There's a treatment for bulging/herniated disks that is newly approved as of August. My wife's boss has bad neck pain and they were going to operate on him through his throat to fuse 3 vertebrae and he was looking at a minimum of 6 weeks recovery time. This new surgery is much less invasive and you are released in under 24 hours. I don't have all the details but, they make a small 2" incision, trim the offending disks and then somehow seal the surface of the damaged disk to keep it from herniating again. Supposed to be a huge advance in back injury treatment.

My knees are going to be my downfall.. I hope they come up with something for them before I need them fixed.

Ian


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## Soul Assassin

*Dealing with back pain*

I'm unfortunately an expert in this arena.
Degenerative disk disease is very common even among people who lift heavy objects.......as we get older the cartilage between the disks gets worn down pinching nerves, muscles etc.

I've tweeked my back, instantly fallen to my knees and screamed in pain...then couldn't move for two weeks.....egad.

There are several ways to deal with it, I've never had surgery...and hope never to have it. 
-Core strenghthening exercise...you strengthen the ab muscles and muscles in your lower abdomen and body so they take up the slack for your spine and your back becomes stronger. 
-Yoga....start slowly...yoga is powerful medecine and if you jump in too fast you might never walk again...lol.
-Vitamin I or Ibuprofen....doesn't even touch the pain I get, but works for some.
-Chiropracter- I will never use one again, but some swear by them.
-Steroidal shot......this works like a charm...for five days (less if you have a screaming metabolism) then the pain is back in full force.
-Narcotics- Last resort to get over the hump....stop the pain so you can begin to heal. Not an option for me as I tend to eat them like candy...Lol.

Sorry about the spelling, I haven't fully awakened yet.

Good luck and stay safe.


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## PA. Woodsman

*Just an update*

Just an update that I've faithfully been doing that "McKenzie" stretch 200 times a day that I mentioned in an earlier post and about 10 days ago I felt pain right on the disc itself for about a minute or so, and then my leg actually felt better and the pain on the disc left. We all believe that it actually was the disc pushing itself back into it's place; it sure hurt when it came out, so it makes sense that it would hurt a little when it pushed back in! I still have some Sciatica pain and feel not 100%, but there has been a big improvement, and it will take a long time to "calm" the Sciatic nerve down. But the exercise is working, and hopefully it'll continue to improve a little everyday. I don't need any painkillers at all, as opposed to when I was going to that Orthopedic doctor who damn-near tried to kill me with weightlifting! Keep looking for the right help and the right answer; good luck to you all!


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## johnha

Jumper said:


> .......the US has a great medical system so long as you have insurance or are rich. Those that are neither are SOL.



other data points:

http://tinyurl.com/24ctno

or

http://tinyurl.com/yvdv99

maybe there's a way to combine the best of both worlds? But politicians aren't the ones who should be doing it.


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## OLD CHIPMONK

First hurt my back in 1962 and the only thing that keeps me limber is working, bending, lifting & constant movement. Playing Golf tommorrow !


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## livinalaska

*Brother I feel your pain!*

There are a lot of great points in these replies. The ones that make the most sense include exercising your core and keeping limber. I stay away from NSAIDs because they cause way more problems than they solve. Also, the pound of fat on your belly equals 5 pounds pulling your low back forward. I know that we work in an active trade, however, keeping up on cardio and basic weight training will pay dividends in the end. I have disc degeneration and a bulged disc at L4/L5, however I haven't had pain that keeps me away from work for years. Also, I have an awesome chiropractor that I see about once a month. I'm 39 but plan to climb for a lot more years. Good luck!


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## Haywire Haywood

livinalaska said:


> I stay away from NSAIDs because they cause way more problems than they solve.



I've heard that long term/high dosage use of Ibuprofen is bad for your liver or kidneys, I forget which.

Ian


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## PA. Woodsman

*Finally got "released" from physical therapy!*

Well, after 3 months of physical therapy to fix my ruptured L-5 disc, I was finally released this past Wednesday 11/7/07. I now still have to watch what I do and can reduce my exercises down from everyday to a couple of times a week. Thank God that I'm better; it took a lot of exercise and work, but it actually made me stronger for the long haul-and MAYBE a little smarter! :greenchainsaw:


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## PA. Woodsman

*Just a bump!*

Just wanted to bump this up so someone could find it! Still doing well with the healed disc! :greenchainsaw:


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## Bigus Termitius

Glad to here you are on the march.

I just got one of those ?shiatsu? massagers for Christmas.

Big helper already. Pays for itself everytime I sit down.


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## hornett22

*i have muscle aches from a fight with a drunk in '94.*

stretching makes a world of difference.my buddy has an inversion table and swears by it.i'm looking for one know.i think he said he bought his online from healthmark or something.

my dad was supposed to go under the knife years ago but he doesn't like surgery like me.went to a different doctor and was told he didn't need surgery.gave him some stretches to do and he's fine.


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## RCR 3 EVER

PA. Woodsman said:


> Just wanted to bump this up so someone could find it! Still doing well with the healed disc! :greenchainsaw:



Just be careful,you never know when it will strike again!
After my initial surgery I felt better after 6 months and I then waited for 1.5 yrs. to go on our 24' boat. The third trip out on it the whole family of 6 stepped off platform into water into 5' water,no complaints. The boat swung on anchor for my entrance stepping off platform into about 4' water. My first reaction, I hit to soon, second I hope I did nothing to back. 
The next day I could hardly walk and found out I re herniated repaired disk and bulged the 1 above it. Then two months later I lost my job. The boat has also been sold after many years of waiting for healing powers to work.

Bottom line: still be careful, as you are still injured yet feeling better. Glad you are feeling better!!


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## sharkfin12us

*back pain*

Ive been doing tree work since about 1995.Now that im 45 have my own business.I recently bought bucket truck march 2006 so that relieves alot of climbing for me.If i climb a tree i just get it on ground i dont pick up wood any more not worth it.I let the younger guys do it.If you can do that just get the tree on ground and let your workers handle it you can avoid alot of aches and pains.Hope that might help some.


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## PA. Woodsman

RCR 3 EVER said:


> Just be careful,you never know when it will strike again!
> After my initial surgery I felt better after 6 months and I then waited for 1.5 yrs. to go on our 24' boat. The third trip out on it the whole family of 6 stepped off platform into water into 5' water,no complaints. The boat swung on anchor for my entrance stepping off platform into about 4' water. My first reaction, I hit to soon, second I hope I did nothing to back.
> The next day I could hardly walk and found out I re herniated repaired disk and bulged the 1 above it. Then two months later I lost my job. The boat has also been sold after many years of waiting for healing powers to work.
> 
> Bottom line: still be careful, as you are still injured yet feeling better. Glad you are feeling better!!



You're right-it could strike again even if you are careful! Or turn up in different ways. 2 weeks ago I had to go back to the physical therapist that fixed my back and have my left Sacroilliac joint "reset"; I had to "twist and throw" some decent weight boxes up a conveyor belt because some assjack plowed the dock shut at work instead of dragging it open. I've had trouble with that S.I. joint before, but since this disc has been healed I can EASILY tell when something is out of line. But the disc was/is fine! Now I have muscle pain in the butt from that incident and slipping on black ice 4 days later!!!  :censored: Rather that than the disc problem again!

Sorry to hear of your incident and bad luck-hope that things are on the mend for you. Did they ever talk to you about the McKenzie extension stretch that we talk about here? That's what cured me! 


:greenchainsaw:


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## 12guns

Advil, Advil, Advil...I've tried it all, Celebrex, Tylenol, Asprin, etc. Advil is a wonder drug. I've tried to lay off so I'm not taking it litterally every day, but when I need it, sure does help


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## Sprig

12guns said:


> Advil, Advil, Advil...I've tried it all, Celebrex, Tylenol, Asprin, etc. Advil is a wonder drug. I've tried to lay off so I'm not taking it litterally every day, but when I need it, sure does help


Celebrex is junk, the list of side effects is a gruesome read, I barffed blood the second day (same with all 'anti-inflamatories' fer me tho including Asprin). Best thing I've done for my back is lose most of my gut and cut wayyy back on anything containing gluten, also twisting while lifting I avoid like the plague. Advil sometimes gives a bit of relief and I have found Robaxicet (sp) does ok too. Mostly I try not to re-injure and am no fan of big pressure drops either 
My pop calls it 'creeping decrepitude' , I resemble that remark  

 P.A. glad ta hear you're on the mend man!

Serge


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## PA. Woodsman

Sprig said:


> P.A. glad ta hear you're on the mend man!
> 
> Serge



I appreciate that! Like I said before, my two words of advice for anyone with disc problems:

McKenzie extensions:greenchainsaw:


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## LNG24

Double Herniated Disc's. L4 & L5 (guess they are always the first to go) 

Mine hit me like a truck. I only cut trees for fire wood. I got mine doing construction. Wake up one morning and all if fine. Eat Breakfast and clean up. Just getting ready to walk out the door and it was like someone took a 2x4 to the back of both my knees. 6'4" went down like...well some of your trees,  Straight and quick. I tried to get up and could not move. I had never felt pain so severer:censored: I was flat out on my back. I was able to push my way over to the phone and called my g/f friend for help. 

She gets here and helps me get standing; Well knees were off the floor and feet were on the floor, wouldn't call it standing though. Using a chair back to keep me propped up, I tried to make my way out to the car, ten feet from it, I begin to black out. Made it to the seat and out I went.  

Hospital didn't X-ray or run an MRI. They shot me full of morphine and pain killers and sent me home. Thats the kind of care we receive without health insurance if the hospital is Private!

I called a friend of mine, a chiropractor. He takes X-rays and orders an MRI. He was sure, but MRI revealed two herniated disc's. Both pressing on the nerve stem. Thus the reason SOO MUCH PAIN. 

What happened next was amazing. He puts me on a DISC DECOMPRESSION machine. I go to him every day for a week. With adjustments and Decompression, I was walking and get this, Riding My Harley! by the end of the week. Still had back pain, Didn't work for two months. Even now, I have my limitations, BUT I AM DRUG FREE including Advil. 

Compared to my first day: Three Shots of Morphine, Percocet and a Pain Killer Shot and I still could not walk out of that hospital. 

Not all Disc Decompression Machines or the doctors using them, are equal. Do some research and try it. AMAZING!


----------



## LNG24

RCR 3 EVER said:


> Just be careful,you never know when it will strike again!
> After my initial surgery I felt better after 6 months and I then waited for 1.5 yrs. to go on our 24' boat. The third trip out on it the whole family of 6 stepped off platform into water into 5' water,no complaints. The boat swung on anchor for my entrance stepping off platform into about 4' water. My first reaction, I hit to soon, second I hope I did nothing to back.
> The next day I could hardly walk and found out I re herniated repaired disk and bulged the 1 above it. Then two months later I lost my job. The boat has also been sold after many years of waiting for healing powers to work.
> 
> Bottom line: still be careful, as you are still injured yet feeling better. Glad you are feeling better!!




This isn't coming from me since I didn't go that route. Everyone I talked to that had the surgery, re herniated their backs. From what "The Experts" told us, the disc above and/or below the repair takes up the slack and its too much for it so they go in About 1 1/2 to 2 years. Just about your time frame!

Unfortunately, from what I understand, if you have the operation, you can not use the Decompression Machine.


----------



## PA. Woodsman

LNG24 said:


> This isn't coming from me since I didn't go that route. Everyone I talked to that had the surgery, re herniated their backs. From what "The Experts" told us, the disc above and/or below the repair takes up the slack and its too much for it so they go in About 1 1/2 to 2 years. Just about your time frame!



I also was told that surgery is just a "temporary" fix, that people end up having problems again. Then I've heard some people say that having surgery was the best thing that they ever did; guess it's very much an individual thing. I remember my therapist telling me "you're getting better because we are fixing the problem". Pills and shots are just a band-aid to help with the pain; but unless you find out what the cause of the problem is and "fix" it you'll always have the pain. The first guy that I went to who ordered my MRI (orthopedic surgeon) had me on 15 different weight-strengthening machines like I was training to be an Olympic athlete. While I was LOOKING good I certainly wasn't FEELING good because this numnuts was having me do exercises that were worsening the problem. The physical therapist started me with that one exercise-the McKenzie extension-which addressed the problem, then he slooowwwlly added other exercises to the rehab. KEEP SEARCHING until you find someone who you feel is helping you..


There's a LOT of good information being shared here on this thread; hopefully someone is being helped by it!


----------



## southsoundtree

*back pain*

stretching is really important for back health, and we can all do more of it. This post is in part a reminder to myself.

Also, stretching the hand flexor muscles, gripping muscles, can help prevent tendonitis, the step along the way to carpal tunnel syndrome.


----------



## Nailsbeats

beowulf343 said:


> A bit of backpain now and then, but who doesn't have it in this business. Usually a quick trip to the chiropractor takes care of the problem for me. The biggest thing for me though is what shoes i'm wearing. My wesco's are great for in the tree or if i'm in the woods all day felling. But if i have to do alot of walking in them, i'll feel it in my back that night. A lower heeled workboot for brush dragging really helps my back out.



Yes, you are the first person I have ever heard say this. The high heel kills me on the ground. My knees and back feel much better when walking with a lower heel boot. I use a stiff mattress rotating regularily and watch my footwear. I have heard it said that it all starts with your feet and know from experience that this is a major factor to skeletol pain. I use insoles in my boots to get the proper balance. I have also noticed that stomach muscles support your back and diet makes a difference. I don't know exactly what it is, but I find my back and whole body feel great when I drink a lot of white milk. I now call it the "liquid steroid". Lots of great advise in this thread, thank you all.


----------



## hoot gibson

just my two cents worth . i lived with back pain for 26 years , got so bad i would lay over 3 or 4 . 2x4 blocks trying to get it streched out . going to the back bone dr. ( cant spell it ) all i did was keep going back . i have a friend that is a medical masuse. he was working on what i thought was a pulled muscle in my side . he told me that i had a rib out of place , and something was wrong . he worked on my side around to my back , and after about 4 visits . i havnt had a back ach in the last 6 years . mine was just about the belt line in the middl eof my back , like a burning tooth ach all the time , and when i babied it, the muscles on the sides of my back got worse . but like i said i havnt had a bck ach for 6 years . soon after it was fixed , i went back to the back dr. to get my neck loosend up . he ask how my back was , he handnt seen me for awhile , i told him the story , and he looked me rite in the eyes and said .. what does your ribs have to do with your back!! i left the office without saying a word. hoot


----------



## Jerry Lord

if your gonna load it, pay load it.


----------



## Philobite

*Something worth considering*



Haywire Haywood said:


> I've heard that long term/high dosage use of Ibuprofen is bad for your liver or kidneys, I forget which.



Ibuprophen - kidneys, but only at very high doses for sustained periods
Acetominophen (Tylenol) - liver

Also, ibuprophen is a significant factor in emergency room admittance (gastrointestinal bleeds). But it sure is great for short term use for back strains.

In '04 I came down with a chronic severe pain syndrome that most of the meds except heavy narcotics barely touched, and the specialists all told me was something I'd live with the rest of my life. So I invested a lot of time and resources in researching through peer reviewed medical journals to find a solution for myself that would be healthful over the long term. I ended up using something commonly used in sports medicine both to prevent as well as treat musculo-skeletal injuries in Europe and Japan: Systemic Enzyme Therapy (SET) and it not only resolved my pain and allowed me to drop the meds, but it actually reversed the underlying problem, and I found it significantly improved my cholesterol numbers. (In fact, Olympic teams routinely take SET to prevent training and performance injuries).

Several friends with serious, chronic back problems have pursued SET and all of them were able to gain the upper hand in short order. Might be worth a try. One reason I chose it for my condition was that I needed an anti-inflammatory and anti-edemic that I could take for life that had no risk profile. There are several SET complex products (aka proteolytic enzyme complexes) that one can try: Wobenzym N (#2 OTC anti-inflammatory after aspirin in Germany), Neprinol, VitalZym, etc, as well as various vendors of the single systemic enzyme, serrapeptase. Many online vendors sell the various products competitively (and some not so competitively).

I discovered that for acute or chronic pain, the dosage I had to take is much higher than the dosage they call out in the instructions. That's a maintenance dose for healthy folks. But it's perfectly safe to take high dosage.

Aside: there is also a non-SET Cox-2 inhibitor (that's an anti-inflammatory) that is natural, scientifically validated, and that I found helpful for inflammation and pain as well (although at this point I just take the SET) and that is the product _Zyflamend_. May be worth looking into for back pain.

In any case, if anyone is interested at all, I can point you to a website I put together at the insistence of guys that suffer the particular syndrome I have (chronic pelvic pain syndrome) where I tell enough of my story to be illustrative and there are links to small, helpful portions of the medical research that exists (there is a lot of it out there). And I'd be happy to offer input here if it's helpful, understanding I'm not in the mode of giving medical advice of course.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

I think I might get hooked on Flexeril. It really takes care of the bad LBP and neck spasms i get with all the different bulging disks I have.

Probably the only thing that will keep that from happening is the wrung out dish rag feeling it gives me the next morning. A one to two day cycle of use every few weeks seems to help a lot.


----------



## PA. Woodsman

*This might help...*

Just bumping this up because of the recent "revival" of back pain posts...


----------



## Groundman One

By the grace of God my back has survived more than ten-years of humping logs and tree filth up and down hills and across lawns and ditches. I very rarely have any back pain at all. I think it's because I walk a great deal. Not nearly as much as when I lived in the boonies and had no car, but it's still a very rare day that I walk less than four or five kilometres after work. I think it's the best exercise there is. Time to think and get in tune with your body. Walk quickly with good posture and your stomach tight, it helps build up a solid core and your back appreciates it very much.

Our company also builds log cabins (which I don't enjoy very much) and I find slabbing logs dowright painful. It just kills my lower back, but only for the duration of the work.


----------



## Liz08

Philobite said:


> Ibuprophen - kidneys, but only at very high doses for sustained periods
> Acetominophen (Tylenol) - liver
> 
> Also, ibuprophen is a significant factor in emergency room admittance (gastrointestinal bleeds). But it sure is great for short term use for back strains.
> 
> In '04 I came down with a chronic severe pain syndrome that most of the meds except heavy narcotics barely touched, and the specialists all told me was something I'd live with the rest of my life. So I invested a lot of time and resources in researching through peer reviewed medical journals to find a solution for myself that would be healthful over the long term. I ended up using something commonly used in sports medicine both to prevent as well as treat musculo-skeletal injuries in Europe and Japan: Systemic Enzyme Therapy (SET) and it not only resolved my pain and allowed me to drop the meds, but it actually reversed the underlying problem, and I found it significantly improved my cholesterol numbers. (In fact, Olympic teams routinely take SET to prevent training and performance injuries).
> 
> Several friends with serious, chronic back problems have pursued SET and all of them were able to gain the upper hand in short order. Might be worth a try. One reason I chose it for my condition was that I needed an anti-inflammatory and anti-edemic that I could take for life that had no risk profile. There are several SET complex products (aka proteolytic enzyme complexes) that one can try: Wobenzym N (#2 OTC anti-inflammatory after aspirin in Germany), Neprinol, VitalZym, etc, as well as various vendors of the single systemic enzyme, serrapeptase. Many online vendors sell the various products competitively (and some not so competitively).
> 
> I discovered that for acute or chronic pain, the dosage I had to take is much higher than the dosage they call out in the instructions. That's a maintenance dose for healthy folks. But it's perfectly safe to take high dosage.
> 
> Aside: there is also a non-SET Cox-2 inhibitor (that's an anti-inflammatory) that is natural, scientifically validated, and that I found helpful for inflammation and pain as well (although at this point I just take the SET) and that is the product _Zyflamend_. May be worth looking into for back pain.
> 
> In any case, if anyone is interested at all, I can point you to a website I put together at the insistence of guys that suffer the particular syndrome I have (chronic pelvic pain syndrome) where I tell enough of my story to be illustrative and there are links to small, helpful portions of the medical research that exists (there is a lot of it out there). And I'd be happy to offer input here if it's helpful, understanding I'm not in the mode of giving medical advice of course.



I've also heard very good things about Zyflamend, although I've not personally used it yet. It is supposed to be excellent for inflammation, and obviously doesn't have the negative side effects to the liver, kidneys, and intestines that drugs such as tylenol and ibuprofen do. The site where I get my supplements has some good info/research on it if anyone is interested in reading more.


----------



## pdqdl

*I seem to be the exception to this back pain thread...*

I really don't suffer from back pain, hardly ever. Unless it follows a traumatic injury, and then I recover quickly.

In 1976 I was rear-ended by a drunk in a car while turning into my driveway. I was riding a motorcycle, so I was essentially slammed by the car at 39 mph+, according to the police report. That messed up my back for quite a long time.

In 1981, I had another motorcycle wreck, and did all kinds of damage. Six months later, nobody at my company could pick up a heavier rock than I could. It was revealed two years later that I had crushed two lumbar vertebra, and that they had fused naturally. So got real lucky.

Over the years, I have often thought how unusual it was that I had no back problems. In fact, I really think those fused lumbar vertebra have helped me avoid a great deal of discomfort.

2 months ago, I was in a head-on car crash, and broke (non-displaced) 2 cervical vertebra. I went back to work the following day, but I wasn't toting any logs around, you can bet! Since then, I am pretty much back to work full time.

Sorry all you other fellows have back problems, because I KNOW what it feels like. I just seem to be lucky on the recovery side of things. This was such a depressing read, I just thought someone should put something positive in it.

Oh yeah: I am 50 years old. Or young, depending on your point of view.


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## Lumberjacked

*Yup!*

Im with all ya guys but Im only 25 and have already broken 4 vertebrae. I hit a 25 foot wide drainage ditch on my brand new snowmobile going 75mph+ 3 years ago. I fractured my C 6&7 and my L 1&2. Pretty f-ing lucky to be walking much less alive, yet I still love my dangerous job! Not too many people out there that can or will do our kind of work, I consider myself lucky that I am one of the few. Keep it safe and take lots of hydrocodone.


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## Jlarnard

I was a brute, nobody on the crew could out work me. They may have been bigger and stronger, but I just put more back into it. Well I can tell you that back pain is not always from an incident. It is often from a lifetime of bad habits. Sitting, lifting, power toys, etc.... as I was saying I used to be a brute. Now I live in fear everyday of twisting the wrong way. The first time my back locked up, I had just finished throwing a bunch of firewood in a pile. I went and got a drink and carried the ropes up to the truck. I went down the hill and grabbed 2 044s and carried them up. There was one saw left down there, it was a top handled poulan, we called it the Frog. I bent to pick that tiny thing up and fell to the ground. I was out for 2 weeks. Well since then it has been almost an anual thing. Never am I doing something big, it's always when my guard is down. I have 2 hurniated disks and several other bulging ones. If it weren't for Medrol packs, I would probably still be down. My last incident lasted 2 months.
I need to retire.


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## PA. Woodsman

*Here's another angle on this back pain!*

Well, as the guy who started this lengthy thread, I have an "update" to pass on and hope that it may help someone else. For several months, my left "side"-lower back, hamstring, knee calf and ankle have been giving me a decent amount of pain. Everything felt too "tight". I'd go to the chiropractor, tell her of this and she'd give me an adjustment and tell me "your back is out"-no kidding!!! I could've gone to her 365 days a year and she'd tell me that. I couldn't help but to think that the problem is NOT my back being out and she can't do anything more for me, so I looked through the Yellow Pages at other Choropractor's ads, and I found this young guy who had in his ad "relief from tight muscles, spasms and pain" so I saw him last night and he told me what I had suspected for months-what I have is a "muscle imbalance" which means that some muscles (the left side) are too tight and others are too weak. He made me do several stretches and decided on a course of some Ultrasound to relax the Piriformis muscle, zapped me with some kind of instrument, and will then proceed to stretch and strengthen several muscle groups. I felt some relief from just that one treatment, but the pain returned while working but not as strong or long as before. I FINALLY feel like I am on the right path, as this guy seems to know his stuff. Sometimes the "younger" doctors are more up to date with things, so keep looking and you may hit on someone who really DOES know how to help you!


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## southsoundtree

In ADDITION to all the work and abuse that our backs have taken over time, just a few things...

Stretching is key, as was just mentioned


Driving is hard on the body. pushing the gas with the right leg means the hips tilt all the time. The body has to compensate. Add to the is a worn out driver's seat in a work truck and that can add considerable complications. I had a GF with an old subaru, previously owned by a large woman. The seat was shot, and leaned toward the door. Holy moley, could that aggravate things. We leveled it out with a towel. An inflatable pillow will level things out really well also, just inflate it a very small amount.

A different GF had back pain for years, when to the chiropractor, Ibuprofen, waking up in the middle of the night, etc. She finally bought a new bed for a few hundred dollars. Presto chango, no more (or at least significantly less) problems. 


Try to take the time, with the crew to warm up/ cool down, and stretch your whole body, especially before working all day then sitting relatively still on the ride home. After getting home, stretch some more. 

while this will not cure bulging discs/ etc, it probably will help overall for the whole crew to feel better, therefore be more productive, and have less chronic injuries.


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## Justice

Well in the last two years I have had my spine fused twice. C5, C6 from the front in 07. One level did not take, so Feb of 08 I had it fused from behind with a graft from my hip. Sadly the nerve pain has never gotten any better, so I am not convinced yet that fusion is such a great thing. 

Soma works quite well at night... a little groggy in the morning, but I get more than 1 or two hour's of sleep at a time. I just got some Flexeral, but I have not tried it yet.. it is susposed to be a whole day drug. 

I am interested in any info on SET. Muscle relaxers are no way to go through life. 

My recomendation on fusion is do your research and talk to a bunch of doctors, and don't listen to work comp! If any one is considering fusion feel free to contact me and I will forward some info I have.


----------



## chainsaw1

I had 2 bad discs in my lower back L4/5 and L5/6 and 3 in my neck C4/5 C5/6 and C6/7 i was in very bad shape and all they could offer me was a 3 level fusion in my neck and told me they could not do anythin for my lower. I did my research and went to Germany and had all those discs replaced with artiffical discs at Stenum hospital 2 years ago and i am all better now almost better than ever it was the best thing i have ever done and ALOT better than fusion.


----------



## pdqdl

Justice: That sounds pretty rough. Fused cervical sounds like a bad deal no matter which way you turn. (pun intended)

I have naturally fused lumbar vertebra, and they don't bother me at all. No surgery, and I got over the injury quite nicely.


----------



## Philobite

Justice said:


> I am interested in any info on SET. Muscle relaxers are no way to go through life.



Justice, first of all: OUCH! Sorry you're in such pain!

SET (Systemic Enzyme Therapy) is actually well documented, especially in European and Japanese medical journals and clinical trials. In Germany an SET product is second only to aspirin in OTC pain/inflammation sales. The essential principle is to take sufficiently high doses that enough of it passes into the blood stream and does its job of enzymatically digesting exogenous proteins in the blood and the tissues. This reduces inflammation, removes inflammatory debris, is somewhat analgesic and removes scar tissue by digesting it as exogenous.

SET consists of various naturally produced, but difficult to manufacture, proteolytic enzymes, packaged in an enteric coating that comes apart only in the pH of the duodenum (upper part of the small intestine) for absorption into the bloodstream there. SET should not be confused with digestive tract enzymes.

Raw proteolytic enzymes would include bromelain, papain, serrapeptase, nattokinase, pancreatic enzymes, etc. While some of these can be taken separately for some good effect, much better I've found (and this is verified by all the research), is to use one of the prepared combination SET products. Such products would include (but are not limited to):
Wobenzym N, VitalZym, Neprinol, W-Zyme, or similar. I find good deals online for these and buy the largest bottles to keep the price down.

The key to taking it for significant injury, disease or pain is to take it in v_ery large doses_ 3 times a day to maintain blood saturation. SET is macro molecules so absorption is fractional, it takes a lot to get a therapeutic dose of molecules into the bloodstream. For example, when I was at my peak of my chronic pain syndrome, I started with 30 Wobenzym a day for a few weeks. I got substantial relief in several days, but kept at max dose to knock out the symptoms completely before backing down. Now several years later I take 5-7 a day of the less expensive W-Zyme which is a knock-off that came out recently. The important thing is that it is impossible to overdose on SET. A couple years ago I was feeling so good I didn't take them for a few weeks and ended up in the emergency room with my chronic pain syndrome in spades. Needless to say I don't forget them anymore.

The only cautions would be if you're taking any blood thinners... SET will make them more effective and you can bleed out, so work with a doc in the case you take thinners.

The other thing is that since you don't want it digested in the stomach, you take it at least 1/2 hour away from food and with only water or juice (a large glass).

A few nice side effects: lowered my bad cholesterol, I became regular as clockwork, fewer headaches, many fewer and less severe colds, and my wife who takes them no longer has seasonal allergies. (These are all documented effects in the medical journals, btw).

My older brother has found Serrapeptase, which is the enzyme that silk worm catarpillars produce to digest the silk protein cocoons to escape them, (There are several products that have it), to be especially effective for joint and ligament pain. He has plantar fascitis and at large doses it has zapped the symptoms. He also has found Zyflamend (mentioned by an earlier poster) to be helpful. I should point out that Serrapeptase is the active ingredient in the prescription anti-inflammatory with the best name brand recognition by doctors in Europe: Danzen!

Sorry for the long post. If you're interested in my own personal journey into chronic pain and SET as the solution for me, you can click here.


----------



## Philobite

Justice said:


> Soma works quite well at night... a little groggy in the morning, but I get more than 1 or two hour's of sleep at a time. I just got some Flexeral, but I have not tried it yet.. it is susposed to be a whole day drug.



I know someone that has a painful urinary/bladder condition that keeps him from sleeping and he sometimes uses Kava Kava in the evening. It's an interesting, fast acting substance that relieves pain, is anti-spasmotic and relaxes agitation while sharpening the senses, unlike opiates. It works well for him for getting sleep when pain is present. Just don't take it with statin drugs, Tylenol, alcohol or if you have liver issues. Also, one shouldn't take it all the time. Maybe a few times a week when pain is particularly an issue at night, then break for a week or so.


----------



## Justice

Thanks Philobite,

I looked up the products you mentioned, and there are MANY sellers on the net. Would a vitamin shop or GNC sell these products? OR who might you recommend? 

The Kava Kava looks interesting, and there is a place right in Hawaii. 

Thanks again!

pdqdl... HAHA...lol Its a lot better than walking around with only one level fused and one not fused, and the titanium bracket holding your head on for a year. The bracket tends to move a little when strained so bone on bone in your neck really gets your attention...lol Pain is just something you get used to, not being able to do anything for 2 years is totally different. I can now function quite normally, just with some level of pain. 

Thanks!


----------



## Philobite

Recently I've gotten the best prices on W-Zyme (the Wobenzym knockoff) on Amazon.com in 500 count. The best place I've found for Wobenzym is martialmart.com in 800 count. On Serrapeptase, there are many places online.

I don't think GNC carries systemic enzymes, but I may be wrong. I think their stuff will be digestive enzymes.


----------



## Ed Roland

I'm 38 and cured my chronic back problems by losing 30lbs and getting into very decent shape. In the past year I've been problem free and now i climb like a spider monkey!


----------



## PA. Woodsman

Philobite said:


> Justice, first of all: OUCH! Sorry you're in such pain!
> 
> SET (Systemic Enzyme Therapy) is actually well documented, especially in European and Japanese medical journals and clinical trials. In Germany an SET product is second only to aspirin in OTC pain/inflammation sales. The essential principle is to take sufficiently high doses that enough of it passes into the blood stream and does its job of enzymatically digesting exogenous proteins in the blood and the tissues. This reduces inflammation, removes inflammatory debris, is somewhat analgesic and removes scar tissue by digesting it as exogenous.
> 
> SET consists of various naturally produced, but difficult to manufacture, proteolytic enzymes, packaged in an enteric coating that comes apart only in the pH of the duodenum (upper part of the small intestine) for absorption into the bloodstream there. SET should not be confused with digestive tract enzymes.
> 
> Raw proteolytic enzymes would include bromelain, papain, serrapeptase, nattokinase, pancreatic enzymes, etc. While some of these can be taken separately for some good effect, much better I've found (and this is verified by all the research), is to use one of the prepared combination SET products. Such products would include (but are not limited to):
> Wobenzym N, VitalZym, Neprinol, W-Zyme, or similar. I find good deals online for these and buy the largest bottles to keep the price down.
> 
> The key to taking it for significant injury, disease or pain is to take it in v_ery large doses_ 3 times a day to maintain blood saturation. SET is macro molecules so absorption is fractional, it takes a lot to get a therapeutic dose of molecules into the bloodstream. For example, when I was at my peak of my chronic pain syndrome, I started with 30 Wobenzym a day for a few weeks. I got substantial relief in several days, but kept at max dose to knock out the symptoms completely before backing down. Now several years later I take 5-7 a day of the less expensive W-Zyme which is a knock-off that came out recently. The important thing is that it is impossible to overdose on SET. A couple years ago I was feeling so good I didn't take them for a few weeks and ended up in the emergency room with my chronic pain syndrome in spades. Needless to say I don't forget them anymore.
> 
> The only cautions would be if you're taking any blood thinners... SET will make them more effective and you can bleed out, so work with a doc in the case you take thinners.
> 
> The other thing is that since you don't want it digested in the stomach, you take it at least 1/2 hour away from food and with only water or juice (a large glass).
> 
> A few nice side effects: lowered my bad cholesterol, I became regular as clockwork, fewer headaches, many fewer and less severe colds, and my wife who takes them no longer has seasonal allergies. (These are all documented effects in the medical journals, btw).
> 
> My older brother has found Serrapeptase, which is the enzyme that silk worm catarpillars produce to digest the silk protein cocoons to escape them, (There are several products that have it), to be especially effective for joint and ligament pain. He has plantar fascitis and at large doses it has zapped the symptoms. He also has found Zyflamend (mentioned by an earlier poster) to be helpful. I should point out that Serrapeptase is the active ingredient in the prescription anti-inflammatory with the best name brand recognition by doctors in Europe: Danzen!
> 
> Sorry for the long post. If you're interested in my own personal journey into chronic pain and SET as the solution for me, you can click here.




Thanks for the great information; I had forgotten about Wobenzym until I read your post. I had one left in my "medical" box at work and took it and actually felt some "relief" so I bought a bottle on the way home. If it works out I'll buy it cheaper online-thanks again!


----------



## Philobite

You're welcome. I'm glad to hear you got some relief from the Wobs! 

Because it's always a question that pops up, here's a pre-emptive strike on dosages as they work for me.

Here's what I would do if I had moderate chronic pain say 2-3 on a scale of 5. If taking Wobenzym or W-Zyme, I'd take 5 tabs in the AM on rising, 5 about a half hour before lunch, and 5 in the evening upon retiring. It must be taken on an empty stomach at least 1/2 hr away from food, and with a tall glass of water. If I missed a dose I'd double up on the next one.

If I were in serious pain I'd start 10 tabs each dose. Yep, 30 tabs a day. In fact, when I had my Chronic Pelvic Pain syndrome I was in such sorry shape that I took 30 Wobenzym plus 15 of the 40,000 unit Serrapeptase tabs a day! I went from sorry shape (4 on a scale of 5 in pain), down to a 1-2 in three to four days and down to 0-1 in a week). And once a good response to the pain had occurred I'd start to back down to 7 at a time, then 5, and so forth.


----------



## PA. Woodsman

*Thanks again!*



Philobite said:


> You're welcome. I'm glad to hear you got some relief from the Wobs!
> 
> Because it's always a question that pops up, here's a pre-emptive strike on dosages as they work for me.
> 
> Here's what I would do if I had moderate chronic pain say 2-3 on a scale of 5. If taking Wobenzym or W-Zyme, I'd take 5 tabs in the AM on rising, 5 about a half hour before lunch, and 5 in the evening upon retiring. It must be taken on an empty stomach at least 1/2 hr away from food, and with a tall glass of water. If I missed a dose I'd double up on the next one.
> 
> If I were in serious pain I'd start 10 tabs each dose. Yep, 30 tabs a day. In fact, when I had my Chronic Pelvic Pain syndrome I was in such sorry shape that I took 30 Wobenzym plus 15 of the 40,000 unit Serrapeptase tabs a day! I went from sorry shape (4 on a scale of 5 in pain), down to a 1-2 in three to four days and down to 0-1 in a week). And once a good response to the pain had occurred I'd start to back down to 7 at a time, then 5, and so forth.




Another great post; I'm using it to give me relief and to help until I can get this "muscle imbalance" figured out. I'm going to a massage therapist Friday whom I talked to on the phone and he thinks that he can help. Everyone always thinks that it is the back (discs) that is the problem, but many times as in my case it's the muscles that are in spasm and pulling the WRONG way and either too strong or too weak and are pulling and causing the pain. Muscle pain was listed as something that Wobenzym helps, so I will be using it as needed. Thanks again!!


----------



## markbuilt

*back pain ouch whats a little pain*

yes the nack pain thing can totally relate , did my back in in 1984 broke 2 places plus cracked th hip , best I could do is become self employed rather than unemployed , nobody wanted a back injury going somewhere to happen .

I built a small business manufactured houses cottages and trusses and yes a saw mill outfit worked well til the 90s when the wife got a progressive brain illness , that my friends totally broke the spirit of more than a slight bit of back pain ..... but we all do what we must wood cutter type people have great get up and go and big hearts to help without being asked


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