# Old and New Growth wood,What makes it old and what makes it new?



## JOE.G (Dec 30, 2012)

Just wondering what makes wood old growth? What makes it new? I always hear how Old Growth is better, I am logging some of my Property, I do sections every winter and I always hear how the Lumber that come off my Property is Real nice, this goes for the soft and hard woods.

I know some of this Property has never been touched ( At least in the last 60 Years )and I know some of it was farm land pastures many many years ago.

So I was just wondering how many years does it take to make a tree called Old Growth.


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## slowp (Dec 30, 2012)

I don't know. The environmental groups keep going younger...seriously. To me it has more to do with being a mature, untouched stand of trees. That stuff tends to grow slower because it hasn't had any thinning or genetic help. Slower means closer rings and a tighter, stronger grain. 

I seem to remember at first it was over 180 years, then to 120 and around here, the Forest Service tries to stay out of 80 year old stuff. That's what I mean about old growth getting younger. The politics define what is old growth now.

Some misguided people think that all big trees are old growth, and that is not at all true. Diameter has nothing to do with it, on harsher ground, and old growth tree could be merely 8 inches in diameter.


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## madhatte (Dec 30, 2012)

The current working definition we're following on the ownership where I work is that "Old-Growth Characteristics" exist in a stand where there are both large and small trees, of diverse species, unevenly spaced, with a large component of both standing and down dead woody material. Note that any mention of age is explicitly omitted. The logic behind this is that we have bought ourselves an exclusion to the new spotted owl regulations by identifying these areas and "Managing For" them. Cool thing is that by creating canopy gaps and encouraging the development of less prominent species through localizing disturbance, we are making MORE of the areas where "Old-Growth Characteristics" exist, without incurring any extra restrictions. I don't think this approach would work as well on private land, at least not in the current export market, but it's certainly do-able, at least on a small scale.


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## Joe46 (Dec 30, 2012)

To add to what Slowp said. I cut a stand of DF in the northern part of the state that was 110 yrs old. It was being made into poles and piling, so that gives you some idea of the diameter.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 30, 2012)

The way I've always thought of it after working closely with talented U.S.F.S. and Fish & Wildlife biologists is that there are plant and animal species that occur only in or primarily in an old-growth forest that don't occur normally or with regular frequency in a "reproduction" or secondary growth stand. There's lichens, algae, insects, fungi, and critters that establish themselves in a long-time undisturbed forest ecosystem.


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## 2dogs (Dec 30, 2012)

Old growth. That term is defined be the enviro groups and the news media as any tree that should not be cut down. We have lots of old growth eucaplyptus in my area.


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## JOE.G (Dec 30, 2012)

I cut sections of my land every winter Like i stated, i do this because I am trying to keep it healthy ( Of course the money doesn't hurt either ) I tend to have the same guy back every year, but I have had other do some cutting along with what I cut, they all seem to like the wood on my property, the soft wood goes to my buddies lumber yard/mill and he say's that is it is top notch wood, the hard goes off to another yard. I was just wondering, The loggers i have had in he don't think it has ever been cut before so I just wasn't sure if that was the reason for the quality wood,


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## madhatte (Dec 30, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> there are plant and animal species that occur only in or primarily in an old-growth forest



These are the "Old-Growth Characteristics" I'm talking about. We use the sensitive species as indicators of the health of the forest, and press to create more, so as to relieve the urgency for preserving little bits scattered here and there. We treat our prairies in much the same way. Our hope is that through careful management of the land, we can still provide natural resources and jobs while expanding the habitat for threatened and endangered species. The way the Enviros and the Industry go at it, you'd think it was a strictly black-and-white issue, and it's not. There are still a lot of accommodations to be made by both parties in the interest of the Greater Good.

Another important aspect that is often overlooked is connectivity. A 20-acre parcel of never-been-cut trees as an island in thousands of acres of second- and third-growth commercial forest isn't doing anybody any good. It's land lost to both ecological value (via isolation and degradation) and to commercial value (in that them old fatties can't be cut, and the land can't be planted over with young, vigorous trees) which serves more as a reminder that there is a very human disagreement regarding its use than as any kind of natural legacy. Cutting 2% of an ownership each year to maintain an arbitrary 50-year cycle is no better. 

Also: an isolated old tree in an otherwise young stand does not old-growth make. Shelterwood and seed-tree harvests are not old-growth in spite of the presence of remnants of earlier stands left within them. The species composition at all levels, from beneath the soil to above the canopy, is quite different. 

Everybody involved in this (very human) issue need to be prepared to give up a bit of their ideals in order to reach some mutually-acceptable solution. We're not gonna "un-exist" humanity, nor are we gonna "re-exist" extinct species or communities.


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## Oldtimer (Dec 30, 2012)

My friend owns a plot on a small lake here in NH that has a Black Gum tree the biologists say is well over 400 years old. Somewhere else, secret, there is a patch of true "old growth" forest here in NH that is supposed to be the same today as it was before the white man arrived...the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".


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## madhatte (Dec 30, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".



Bet I could find it in an hour or less using Google Earth. Same goes for the "secret groves" of Redwoods. Point is, "Old-Growth" is a human construct and not the result of natural processes.


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## Oldtimer (Dec 31, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Bet I could find it in an hour or less using Google Earth. Same goes for the "secret groves" of Redwoods. Point is, "Old-Growth" is a human construct and not the result of natural processes.



Go ahead and try. I will be very surprised if you can differentiate it from the rest of the forests here.


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## madhatte (Dec 31, 2012)

OK, this is just a preliminary overview, but I've found a few places, particularly in the NE corner of the state, where I see that the conditions exist which suggest historic isolation: no road access, unbridged river boundary, no evidence of recent cuts, and, most importantly, a whole bunch of different shades of green, which indicates a good species diversity. Unfortunately, the quality of the airphoto coverage in these areas is poor -- I'm guessing about 1M resolution -- so measuring individual crown widths is impossible. Also, all 3 of the latest coverages were flown in the fall. This is OK, because the leaf-off imagery can show more of the structure of a crown, but it can also falsely overstate mortality patches; it's very hard to tell the difference between a tree with no leaves because it's dead from one with no leaves because it's winter. I don't know the land so the best I can do is add up the pieces I see, but I can see quite a lot. Finding the exact patch you're talking about may be a trick, but I can certainly see similar ones easily. Now I'm going to bump south some and see if the coverage isn't of higher quality in more populated areas.

EDIT: ah, the Jun 2010 coverage in the center of the state is much better-quality. Found a likely looking patch west of a place called Stinson Lake that meets the above requirements, with a bonus of a mid-slope swamp which would make the place a hassle to log (and most certainly illegal today). The size, shape, and colors of the crowns suggest a good mix of species, which is a sure sign of a more mature stand.

EDIT 2: Glacial cirque SW of Mt Washington looks likely, too. Poor airphoto coverage, tho.


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## funky sawman (Dec 31, 2012)

Ole Madhatte, I swear this guy is a walking encylopedia of trees, What Einstein was to physics, Madhatte is to forests.


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## madhatte (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks, man! Good to see you, too. You should swing by more often!


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## Oldtimer (Dec 31, 2012)

The NE corner is timber company land, and I have ridden snowmobile to boundry pond...trust me, it's been cut before.
It very well could be in the WMNF near Mt. Washington, but that whole area was raped and burned in the late 19th and early 20th centurys. It's why the MWNF was created, to make sure it didn't happen again. There are probably a few small impossible to log spots that escaped the wildfires.

I think I recall the piece I had in mind being privately held. I know it was being kept secret.


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## RandyMac (Dec 31, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> My friend owns a plot on a small lake here in NH that has a Black Gum tree the biologists say is well over 400 years old. Somewhere else, secret, there is a patch of true "old growth" forest here in NH that is supposed to be the same today as it was before the white man arrived...the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".



I hope it stays hidden. Some glory seeking jackass like Sillet will put up road signs and post GPS co-ordinates to prove he "discovered" it.


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## JOE.G (Dec 31, 2012)

I read quite a bit about how Old Growth wood is better then new growth wood, DO you guys notice that?


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## madhatte (Dec 31, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> There are probably a few small impossible to log spots that escaped the wildfires.



Yeh, I can see that. Not a whole lot of folk do work that isn't gonna pay.


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## Humptulips (Jan 5, 2013)

All this talk about old growth characteristics is I think a little off the point of the original question.
When you are talking about wood I think it would all come down to grain count. Finer grain wood is generally better so it follows old growth would be better the second growth.
Use to have something we called bastard growth which was basically some pretty nice sized timber but fast growing so coarse grain.


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## RandyMac (Jan 6, 2013)

clear all heart vertical grain.
If the Wolverines and savages leave me alone, I'll shoot some pics of OG DF and some bastid growth timbers.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 6, 2013)

Humptulips said:


> All this talk about old growth characteristics is I think a little off the point of the original question.
> When you are talking about wood I think it would all come down to grain count. Finer grain wood is generally better so it follows old growth would be better the second growth.
> Use to have something we called bastard growth which was basically some pretty nice sized timber but fast growing so coarse grain.



You are right. The only point to clarify is that "old-growth forest" has been defined as an ecological definition based on forest structure that develops over a few centuries. Therefore a single tree technically isn't "old-growth", because that is a forest stand definition. Now, there are plenty of big, old trees, that if growing in an old growth forest, would have that high value tight clear grain; big old (or small old) trees out in the open would have big knots and likely have wind-shake as well (heartwood cracks), and small trees, fast or slow growing, also grow in old-growth forests. Does that clarify it?

We have not figured out how to grow CVG conifer wood commercially, because it takes too much time. If you thin and prune a stand, you will get some clear wood, but because the trees are fast growing, proportionally more of the diameter is sapwood, and all the rings are wide. The wood will therefore have different properties, including density, color, smell, and stability when cut and dried. The reason old-growth wood (OK, wood from big old trees :msp_biggrin is and was so valuable was because it had the best wood properties of the species for our purposes. 

There is a thriving "dis-assembly" industry, made up of many small-scale operators, who will take down your old barn, shed, mine props, RR trestle, or what have you for free in exchange for the wood, which is then re-sawed and made into furniture or beams for exposed beam construction. If you have priced a CVG beam or 3/4 plank lately, you will know why!


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2013)

Then there's late stem-exclusion stands, where the standing timber is all long-suppressed trees which haven't broken out of the canopy yet. The first 32' or more is very often CVG but the stems are no more than 30" diameter at the small end. I put up a sale like that awhile ago. Lots of peelers in there but no 1-S because everything was too small. Stand was ~100 years old, 2nd growth, on nasty rocky soil. However, the wood was pretty equivalent, structurally, to much older and larger timber. There are variations within variations.


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## rwoods (Jan 6, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> My friend owns a plot on a small lake here in NH that has a Black Gum tree the biologists say is well over 400 years old. Somewhere else, secret, there is a patch of true "old growth" forest here in NH that is supposed to be the same today as it was before the white man arrived...the location is not revealed to keep it from being trampled by "eco-lovers".





madhatte said:


> Bet I could find it in an hour or less using Google Earth. Same goes for the "secret groves" of Redwoods. Point is, "Old-Growth" is a human construct and not the result of natural processes.





Oldtimer said:


> Go ahead and try. I will be very surprised if you can differentiate it from the rest of the forests here.



Back in the late 70s, my parents and I "discovered" a small patch of hardwoods in the middle of nowhere that was as close in appearance to the Joyce Kilmore reserve as I have ever seen. The adrenaline boost kept my dad going for hours while I drove him from one scattered homestead to another until we found someone who knew about the plot. We finally hooked up with the owner and were told it had never been cut and each generation of the family had committed to "protect" it. Pop politely left them alone and we went on our way. With today's on-line information, I could have identified the owner in a few minutes. If the family has kept its commitment, I bet Madhatte could find it with his computer.

I should have asked Pop whether he wanted to cut the trees or just look at them. But I didn't. We had spent the morning walking over a clear cut (the first I had ever step foot upon). All Mom and I could see was desolation. Pop saw potential. He kept climbing and walking trying to see what was on the other side of the ridge as he said there would be better timber there, if it had not been logged in a while. It was too steep and long to the top so we loaded up in the car and headed out to find a road that would take us to the back side. That is what led to our discovery.

Ron


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## 056 kid (Jan 6, 2013)

20 years in an inch vs 1 year in an inch. Growth rings that, is sound right?


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## KiwiBro (Jan 6, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> There is a thriving "dis-assembly" industry, made up of many small-scale operators, who will take down your old barn, shed, mine props, RR trestle, or what have you for free in exchange for the wood, which is then re-sawed and made into furniture or beams for exposed beam construction. If you have priced a CVG beam or 3/4 plank lately, you will know why!


They won't let me knock over most big old (think many, many hundreds of years) native trees here (and the eco-voices in my head drown out the day dreaming) so demolishing old houses in areas that used to have mills when previous generations launched into virgin forests is my next best option. Thus far it's yielded some of the best timbers I've ever worked with and it feels great giving that wood a second or third life.


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## RandyMac (Jan 6, 2013)

I am a hard core salvager.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 6, 2013)

I could post some pics of my neighbor's piles -- he has CVG Douglas-fir, western red cedar and redwood, as well as maple, oak all ricked up with some scrap roofing on the top. When he gets around to it, usually for a project, he planes some (after very carefully checking for metal!) and takes it inside to dry. I wish I could post some photos of his stuff, but that would probably be considered "advertising", maybe I'll posy a pic of the bench he made me:

View attachment 271839
View attachment 271840


It's made from redwood and Alaska yellow cedar. about 8 ft. long. Indestructible -- you get some wine or beer stains on it, fine sand it and oil it, good as new. Due for another treatment after my Solstice party.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 6, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I hope it stays hidden. Some glory seeking jackass like Sillet will put up road signs and post GPS co-ordinates to prove he "discovered" it.



Now now, RandyMac -- someone has to step forward and make Omni movies and get on the cover of National Geographic. 
Kind of a mix of science and P.T. Barnum.:msp_biggrin:


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## 056 kid (Jan 6, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I am a hard core salvager.



You ever eat at Reds Randy?


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Now now, RandyMac -- someone has to step forward and make Omni movies and get on the cover of National Geographic.
> Kind of a mix of science and P.T. Barnum.:msp_biggrin:



You know Sillet? He's much more P.T. Barnum than he is about being a scientist.

A few years back he had a major climb scheduled but the media failed to show up. He cancelled the climb.

I always thought that discovery climbs and gathering data didn't take a back seat to how much ink and video they generate. Apparently he feels differently.


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## RandyMac (Jan 6, 2013)

Yup, have eaten there, you can get deep fried anything, burgers aren't bad, a mite pricey.
The best burgers at at the Northwoods.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 6, 2013)

Sillet. I met him in either 1994 or 1999 for the first time. Yes, he rubs people the wrong way; I've heard this from couple sources. OTH, he has done some worthwhile research (read it) about the structure of OG redwood. The guy is not perfect, but you have to give him some credit. He did push through grad school and landed a job as a prof. I'm not going to badmouth him; I haven't personally had any bad experiences with him.


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## LegDeLimber (Jan 6, 2013)

I have a friend who made his living in "architectural salvage" 
and He also hit auctions of defunct businesses.
Got me a chance to see some things from an interesting perspective 
that I never would have seen otherwise.
( this was all decade or more ago, before health took me out of things)
Saw one old warehouse dismantled for the heart pine and old bricks.
Saw semi trailers from several states away
being loaded with those beams 
(18" thick ,all heart pine) you could smell that turpentiney aroma 
from 3 blocks away, when the roofing was peeled off.
Most of the bricks went into an upscale (Harper's) restaurant.

Have spent a few good days cleaning lumber with him.
Still have an assortment of nippers, dykes, cats paws, asst prybars 
and various punches
that I concave ground the tips for driving out broken bolts.
The ceramic wire tubes were always fun to chase down and knock out,
things will trash a band mill blade if you miss a piece.

interesting tidbit- this old steam powered bail press 
was in that big warehouse,
It came awful close to being cut up for scrap.
If steel prices had been as high then, as they are in recent years,
it would likely have been a goner. 
It's that big umbrella looking structure in the top center of this page.
Denton FarmPark NC demonstrations
When the crane crew started taking it down, a piece swung wrong
and they had to bring in another crane to get things unhung

P.S.
This is cool, map site. click just outside of the compass wheel
and you can rotate the map, works way smoother than other mapsites.
enter this url http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=35.236902&lon=-80.82447&z=17.7&r=37&src=yh
and you can see the spot 
(roughly at the center + ) where that old press came from.


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## paccity (Jan 6, 2013)

speaking on reclaim . now that the old Willamette mill that weyco auctioned off will never re open there is some big beautiful wood in there. the ironic thing is the outfit that got it is a salvage co. i would love some of that.


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## 056 kid (Jan 6, 2013)

I agree on their prices, but it tasted pretty ok. I bought my 064 stihl from the pawn shop south a few minutes and ended up firing it up in that parking lot full of berry bushes behind reds there. I didn't know you lived right there,(maybe you dont) but had I, I would have stopped by for a drink.


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## RandyMac (Jan 6, 2013)

I've moved twice since I took that photo. Let me know when you find your way West, we will tie one on, shoot pistols in the back yard.


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## 056 kid (Jan 6, 2013)

10-4 Boss


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## JOE.G (Jan 7, 2013)

Randy I have not seen A wagon like that in many years, that thing looks new from the pic's.


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## RandyMac (Jan 7, 2013)

JoeG, we got a lot of use out of that wagon, it was an '85 LTDII. It blew both head gaskets and had holes in the block at 225,000 miles, pretty much a total. We paid a grand for it, put 60k on it.
This is our "new" wagon, a '68 Falcon with a 289.


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## JOE.G (Jan 7, 2013)

The LTD I didn't like but the falcon is a sweet ride. Nice shape.


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## paccity (Jan 7, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> JoeG, we got a lot of use out of that wagon, it was an '85 LTDII. It blew both head gaskets and had holes in the block at 225,000 miles, pretty much a total. We paid a grand for it, put 60k on it.
> This is our "new" wagon, a '68 Falcon with a 289.



what colour is this one going to be.:msp_wink:


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## Oldtimer (Jan 7, 2013)

The plan is to demo this house (Well over 200 years old) and salvage whatever I can. I should end up with a good amount. All the beams are hand hewn, and the purlins too. I have pit sawn boards in the roof, about 8' long and 20" wide.
The beams in the kitchen ceiling are 6x6 hand hewn spruce, about 22' long. I have 6 of them. The ridge pole is a hewn tree that is about 26' long, but the hewn part ends about 20' along and the rest is round...with the bark still on it.

I am sawing out timbers now, stockpiling them for the day I start building this house from scratch. It will be the same shape style and square footage, just "new" and air-tight. The end goal is a new home that looks 225 years old....


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## rwoods (Jan 7, 2013)

OT, sounds like a great project. Nothing beats the character of old wood. Ron


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## KiwiBro (Jan 8, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> I am sawing out timbers now, stockpiling them for the day I start building this house from scratch. It will be the same shape style and square footage, just "new" and air-tight. The end goal is a new home that looks 225 years old....


What a great plan. Best of luck with it. Please can you take heaps of photos and start a 'rebuild' thread when the time comes?


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 8, 2013)

paccity said:


> what colour is this one going to be.:msp_wink:



Looks like he's already there, Homelite blue!


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## Oldtimer (Jan 8, 2013)

KiwiBro said:


> What a great plan. Best of luck with it. Please can you take heaps of photos and start a 'rebuild' thread when the time comes?



Absolutely.


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## TreeGuyHR (Jan 8, 2013)

Extracting old Kauri logs from peat bogs in New Zealand. Probably worth more than the sheep on the land for that year!

unearthing ancient kauri - 45,000+ years old - YouTube

Pics of milled slabs (not posted as an advert), just check these out

Bowerbird Saved Timbers : Slabs & Board Stock


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## LegDeLimber (Jan 8, 2013)

Opps! sorry for being a thread derailing rambler, ADD gets the better of me sometimes
and you people put up some things that just set my little mind off 
on journeys of wonder and such.


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## Samlock (Jan 8, 2013)

LegDeLimber said:


> Opps! sorry for being a thread derailing rambler, ADD gets the better of me sometimes
> and you people put up some things that just set my little mind off
> on journeys of wonder and such.



People have blamed here on the F&L forum for being lots of ugly things, but never ever for being a thread derailing rambler. That's a standard.


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## paccity (Jan 8, 2013)

some times the wandering is better than than the original subject.:msp_rolleyes:


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## Gologit (Jan 8, 2013)

paccity said:


> some times the wandering is better than than the original subject.:msp_rolleyes:



Yup.


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## redprospector (Jan 8, 2013)

paccity said:


> some times the wandering is better than than the original subject.:msp_rolleyes:



That seems to be the case most of the time.
I'm assuming from Bob's signature that we won't be seeing him in the Whining thread anymore. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 8, 2013)

redprospector said:


> That seems to be the case most of the time.
> I'm assuming from Bob's signature that we won't be seeing him in the Whining thread anymore. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Andy



I'll still be there. When you guys and gals whine I can usually relate to whatever it is you're whining about. And it's really not whining...it's more of a descriptive process. Hmmm...descriptive process...can you tell I've been hanging around Foresters and learning new words?

I was thinking more about the "my 250 is too heavy and I need a smaller saw" or the "I didn't tarp, shelter, or otherwise cover my firewood and now it's all wet and I don't know what to do and besides my saw won't run right and I can't sharpen the blade but I just ordered four more saws on EBay , and my kids won't help, and my wife hates me 'cause I have chainsaw parts all over the house, and the dog had puppies in my pickup" threads.

That kind of whining I can do without.


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## slowp (Jan 8, 2013)

Well, there is that old joke about log truck drivers and puppies......

Sorry, I just couldn't help it.


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## Gologit (Jan 8, 2013)

slowp said:


> Well, there is that old joke about log truck drivers and puppies......
> 
> Sorry, I just couldn't help it.



Be nice, or I'll tell a Forester joke.


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## slowp (Jan 8, 2013)

View attachment 272231


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## redprospector (Jan 8, 2013)

slowp said:


> Well, there is that old joke about log truck drivers and puppies......
> 
> Sorry, I just couldn't help it.



Hmm, I must have missed that one some how. Go ahead Patty, enlighten us. 

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 8, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Hmm, I must have missed that one some how. Go ahead Patty, enlighten us.
> 
> Andy



Oh sure..._encourage_ her. Thanks, pal.


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## dooby (Jan 8, 2013)

TreeGuyHR said:


> Extracting old Kauri logs from peat bogs in New Zealand. Probably worth more than the sheep on the land for that year!
> 
> unearthing ancient kauri - 45,000+ years old - YouTube
> 
> ...



Does any body know if peat bogs in the US are capable of this kind of preservation. I know of atleast 2 bogs on private and one on state. $$$$$$$$$$$


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## slowp (Jan 8, 2013)

Well, the siderod told the puppy joke.

What is the difference between a log truck driver and a puppy? 

Answer: The puppy quits whining when it is two months old.


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## redprospector (Jan 8, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I'll still be there. When you guys and gals whine I can usually relate to whatever it is you're whining about. And it's really not whining...it's more of a descriptive process. Hmmm...descriptive process...can you tell I've been hanging around Foresters and learning new words?
> 
> I was thinking more about the "my 250 is too heavy and I need a smaller saw" or the "I didn't tarp, shelter, or otherwise cover my firewood and now it's all wet and I don't know what to do and besides my saw won't run right and I can't sharpen the blade but I just ordered four more saws on EBay , and my kids won't help, and my wife hates me 'cause I have chainsaw parts all over the house, and the dog had puppies in my pickup" threads.
> 
> That kind of whining I can do without.



Haha, I like that. Can we change the name of The Whining Thread, to The Descriptive Process Thread? 
The State Forestry told us at a contractors meeting a few years ago that we shouldn't call ourselves "old loggers" or "thinning contractors" any more. To be politically correct we should start calling ourselves "Forest Restoration Experts". Doesn't say much for the term expert, does it.

I think I saw all of those threads but the "my 250" thread. I liked the one about "I ran out of wood, just like last year" thread. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jan 8, 2013)

slowp said:


> Well, the siderod told the puppy joke.
> 
> What is the difference between a log truck driver and a puppy?
> 
> Answer: The puppy quits whining when it is two months old.



 I had a feeling it would be a good one. I can adapt that to fit guy's in several ocupations here. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Jan 8, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Oh sure..._encourage_ her. Thanks, pal.



Anything to help you out buddy. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


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## slowp (Jan 8, 2013)

I like renaming it The Descriptive Process Thread. I'm the instigat....oops Original Poster of the thread so how can it be changed? Or must we begin anew? 

I have a whi....oops descriptive process for today. And a household hint.


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## redprospector (Jan 8, 2013)

We all know who started that mess. 
I think you should start a new one, that way we'd have 2 places to whi... uh, bit... er compl...get it off our chest's. Yeah, that's what we're doing.

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 8, 2013)

Yup...start a new thread. You trouble maker you. :msp_biggrin:


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