# Facecut question.



## TreeTangler (Jan 1, 2013)

Hello All,

I have a question that may honestly have no answer. Back when I started cutting, I learned the trade from firewood gatherers as a young boy. All these guys would make the sloped cut in their face cut on the topside and their level cut on the bottom. Years later when I went into the woods, the old timers laughed and taught me the "right" way, with the sloped cut on the bottom and the level cut on the top. 

Now, it's been years since I "learned" how to fell a tree and I honestly can't remember the reasons that any of my teachers gave me for doing things the way that they did. In fact, I've gone back and forth on my technique but always feel that the sloped cut on top is wrong. 

If anybody is still reading and actually has any knowledge of which is better, please feel free to share. It's taken me awhile to get up the courage to ask this, for as many trees and cords I've felled both proffessionaly and for my own use, you'd think I'd know the difference.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2013)

slope on top = conventional, slope on bottom = Humboldt, both have good and bad things. Humboldt leaves a taller stump, but is quicker, leaves more wood in the log, and gives you more options for fancy swing cuts and the like. Conventional, makes for lower stumps... and with some trees responds better.

Also the Humboldt can help prevent the tree from kicking back, the face acts like a wheel chock. this can be a benefit when falling in thick brush, thinning or on steep hills.

Conventional face is a little easier to execute, because you're not trying to cut up with the saw its all down or sideways, but that's what felling dogs are for right...

Hope this helps...


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## TreeTangler (Jan 1, 2013)

Thank you Northman,

This is exactly what I was looking for. It also explains why I prefer the slope on my facecut on the underside. A lot of people find this more difficult but with a sharp chain and the right saw, I find it no challenge at all.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2013)

just point er down dog in and rotate up, course there is that whole lining up yer cuts thing... kinda hard for a cross eyed fat guy to pull off from time to time...


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## greendohn (Jan 1, 2013)

Thanks for the thread and response. Just a home heating fire wood hack and very rarely drop trees, but this really makes sense.


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## flashhole (Jan 1, 2013)

opcorn:


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## Dog_River (Jan 1, 2013)

This is good info, Thanks



northmanlogging said:


> slope on top = conventional, slope on bottom = Humboldt, both have good and bad things. Humboldt leaves a taller stump, but is quicker, leaves more wood in the log, and gives you more options for fancy swing cuts and the like. Conventional, makes for lower stumps... and with some trees responds better.
> 
> Also the Humboldt can help prevent the tree from kicking back, the face acts like a wheel chock. this can be a benefit when falling in thick brush, thinning or on steep hills.
> 
> ...


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2013)

for a long time I couldn't figure out what the gunning lines on top of a saw where for... kept thinking they where for making real straight cuts while bucking... but that didn't make much sense either... then I saw a guy on u-tube making a conventional cut and starting from the top... I've pretty much always used the Humboldt, so it never even crossed my mind that it was for a conventional face...


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## Gologit (Jan 1, 2013)

opcorn:


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## RandyMac (Jan 1, 2013)

All types of facecuts have their uses, depends on the tree, the terrain, safety factors and of course, skill level. There is no such thing as does it all facecut.
The most common mistake I see with the convention cut is too much angle and not near deep enough, most look like the bark got skinned off.


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## flashhole (Jan 1, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> The most common mistake I see with the convention cut is too much angle and not near deep enough, most look like the bark got skinned off.



Plenty of proof of this on YouTube under the Tree Felling Gone Horribly Wrong videos section. Crushed cars, crushed trucks, crushed houses ... you can see the disaster looming before it happens.


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## 1270d (Jan 1, 2013)

What is the general rule for how deep folks put their notch? I've always used 75 to 80 percent dbh for the width of the hingewood. What do you pro fallers do?


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## flashhole (Jan 1, 2013)

What is dbh?


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2013)

D. iameter

at

B. reast

H. eight


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> D. iameter
> 
> at
> 
> ...




Which is also at 4.5 feet on the uphill side of the tree. For me, it is DNH--Diameter neck height. :msp_smile:


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## RandyMac (Jan 1, 2013)

I am prone to cutting deep, call it 45% undercut, 5% hinge, 50% backcut. I mostly use a steep angle, it helps with the dreaded fiber pull.


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## Log slayer (Jan 1, 2013)

The American standard is 25% deep with 45 degree slope and 75% back cut. I go a little deeper than 25% for stability.


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## RandyMac (Jan 1, 2013)

Log slayer said:


> The American standard is 25% deep with 45 degree slope and 75% back cut. I go a little deeper than 25% for stability.



American Standard? Please explain.


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## stihl023/5 (Jan 1, 2013)

I always go deep on my face cut I try not too but I always do. Better than shallow I guess.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 1, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> American Standard? Please explain.



I know of three american standards, 
1: an album released by the rock band Seven Mary 3, 
2: the american standard engineering specs. (ASE what it stands for...) 
3: The company that makes porcelain effigies (that #1 named their album after...)


But I try to make my faces about 1/3 diameter, more or less depending on circumstances


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## Samlock (Jan 2, 2013)

stihl023/5 said:


> I always go deep on my face cut I try not too but I always do. Better than shallow I guess.



You know it's too deep when the stem lands on your thigh.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 2, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I am prone to cutting deep, call it 45% undercut, 5% hinge, 50% backcut. I mostly use a steep angle, it helps with the dreaded fiber pull.



Around here i use 20-25% undercut. Its hard when cutting small trees a deep undercut wont give you enough space to drive wedges or bore cut if need be.

What is the theory on steep angles and fiberpull? the steeper the angle the better chance the fibers will break rather than pull out?

great info.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 2, 2013)

steep slope is supposed to break the fibers, and give you more control of the fall... when you have to shallow of a face angle, that gap closes to early and then the stem will lift off the stump literally pulling fiber out to do so, you also lose control prematurely, since your holding wood is now pulled out and therefore only holding onto air.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 3, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> steep slope is supposed to break the fibers, and give you more control of the fall... when you have to shallow of a face angle, that gap closes to early and then the stem will lift off the stump literally pulling fiber out to do so, you also lose control prematurely, since your holding wood is now pulled out and therefore only holding onto air.



I see. thanks. most of the stuff i cut is cull firewood trees or removals. it gets really tricky with rotten /dead trees when you have little to no holding wood. great thread.


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## mdavlee (Jan 3, 2013)

Humboldt and a snipe on the stump for some trees. 90% of what I fall I put a humboldt in.


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## Dave Boyt (Jan 3, 2013)

1270d said:


> What is the general rule for how deep folks put their notch? I've always used 75 to 80 percent dbh for the width of the hingewood. What do you pro fallers do?



That's pretty much the rule of thumb for the hardwoods I cut, though there are exceptions, like side lean or when you're into hollow or punky logs. Thickness of the hinge is important too, especially when you've got much forward lean. I generally don't like to be cutting the hinge to avoid a barber chair while the tree is on the way down. That's the one situation where I do use a bore cut. I haven't learned how to swing trees, but I've seen it done and it's pretty amazing what they can get those trees to do.


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## 056 kid (Jan 3, 2013)

I know its real easy to get into the habit of just burying the tip facing timber that is bigger that the bar. Say cutting 36 inch with a 32. Seems a bit faster than going deeper. A lot of my stumps that where done quickly have the hinge right through the center of the tree. Often times the only pulled wood will be the center, a little half inch round about e inches tall of what used to be a sapling.


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## rwoods (Jan 3, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> Around here i use 20-25% undercut. *Its hard when cutting small trees a deep undercut wont give you enough space to drive wedges *or bore cut if need be.
> 
> What is the theory on steep angles and fiberpull? the steeper the angle the better chance the fibers will break rather than pull out?
> 
> great info.



Check out D. Douglas Dent's book with reference to when you should do the back cut first (and how). Ron


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## Dave Boyt (Jan 4, 2013)

rwoods said:


> Check out D. Douglas Dent's book with reference to when you should do the back cut first (and how). Ron



Professional Timber Falling... found it on Amazon.com for $108. Kinda pricey, but how much would you have to learn in order for it to pay for itself? Couple of other timber felling books on Amazon, too. Helpful, no doubt, but no substitute for experience, as long as no one gets hurt. If you're new to logging and can find a good, experienced logger that will show you the ropes, you've scored big time. Just don't forget to pass it on when you're the experienced "old timer".


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## redprospector (Jan 4, 2013)

Dave Boyt said:


> Professional Timber Falling... found it on Amazon.com for $108. Kinda pricey, but how much would you have to learn in order for it to pay for itself? Couple of other timber felling books on Amazon, too. Helpful, no doubt, but no substitute for experience, as long as no one gets hurt. If you're new to logging and can find a good, experienced logger that will show you the ropes, you've scored big time. Just don't forget to pass it on when you're the experienced "old timer".



Here, this beats $108 pretty bad.
Bailey's - Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent

Andy


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## Dave Boyt (Jan 4, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Here, this beats $108 pretty bad.
> Bailey's - Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent
> 
> Andy



15 bucks. I can do that. Thanks!


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## closetoreality (Jan 4, 2013)

i have always used the 1/3 of tree rule, and a nice level straight back cut about 2-3 inches above top of face cut. the 2-3 inches (depends of tree size) gives you a nice strong hinge that wont pre-maturely break. and as long as your face cut is nice and steep you won't pull out much tree fibers if any.


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## 1270d (Jan 4, 2013)

As far as learning from the old timers..... some of them are very crude in their felling technique. Some are good. But all of them are still around due to their situational awareness. Work on picking up that from the experienced guys first. Then make nice stumps. If you make your first 1000 stumps perfect, then get. killed, was it worth it? Look up, look around, be aware.


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## TreeTangler (Jan 4, 2013)

1270d said:


> As far as learning from the old timers..... some of them are very crude in their felling technique. Some are good. But all of them are still around due to their situational awareness. Work on picking up that from the experienced guys first. Then make nice stumps. If you make your first 1000 stumps perfect, then get. killed, was it worth it? Look up, look around, be aware.



Truer words have possibly never been spoken.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 4, 2013)

I am not a pro by any means but i can hang. i just enjoy learning new techniques and hearing how others do it. I learned on the bore cut method (cant for the life of me remember the name of the technique). i used to bore cut every tree but over the last few years i have been trying some new things that save time and work better. I like to broaden my knowledge and increase my skill along the way. 

Like i said i am NOT a professional so this is how i used to do it.

Tree size up- Plan the fall check for hazards, lean 
Face cut- conventional face cut about 25-30%diameter.
Bore cut- bore in and set my hinge thickness 10% or so on a heathy tree with little lean
Finish bore cut- leave a strap in the back to hold tree
Wedge- drive wedges on either side of strap
Cut strap- cut strap and shut off saw.
Wedge-if tree hasnt started falling yet drive wedges
i am sure i missed some details this was just a quick overview. 

The one thing i like about this method is that you can set your hinge thickness without chasing a falling tree. the other thing i like is that the saw is ussually off when you are finishing driving the wedges so you can hear whats going on better and retreat is easier.

what i dont like is that its slow and not nesesary for a lot of trees.

Like i said i am not a pro and dont pretend to be.


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## VTWoodchuck (Jan 4, 2013)

Good info, I like to lurk over here alot to learn.
I'm just a firewood cutter that learned from my father who cut 30-40 cord a year(sold wood on the side). I like to use the "birdmouth" face alot. It helps me when I'm trying to 'thread the needle' and not get a tree hung up. I find that it keeps the holding wood intact until the tree hits the ground. Once she starts over I'm confident that it will go were I intended or at least in the direction of the face cut which are sometimes different.:bang: This usually results in the stem staying attached to the stump too but I don't mind as it can help when bucking. I make my face cut about knee or thigh high then cut the stump low after the tree is down. I don't like being all bent over or squating while cutting as I feel that I can't get away as fast if I need to. 

Anyone else use that type of face cut? Is it pointless? I guess a humbolt with a steep undercut would work about the same. Thank you guys for sharing your expertise with us hacks.


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## Dave Boyt (Jan 4, 2013)

Jeepyfz450, that's my technique 90% of the time. Sounds like you've either taken a directional felling (or Game of Logging) class, or learned from someone who did. A lot of west coast loggers are dismissive of the technique, especially the bore cut, and it takes practice to get it right, but it WORKS! This is especially effective if the tree has any forward lean to it, because it won't start to fall until you cut the strap, which you can do standing up. The only thing I'd add is to make sure you have a clear escape path planned out, at about a 45 degree angle from the opposite direction the tree will fall (hope that makes sense). I'm also big on chaps & logger's helmet. I read recently that the AVERAGE chain saw accident required 110 stitches, and I know a logger who has over 400 from one accident. Keep learning & stay safe!


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 4, 2013)

Dave Boyt said:


> Jeepyfz450, that's my technique 90% of the time. Sounds like you've either taken a directional felling (or Game of Logging) class, or learned from someone who did. A lot of west coast loggers are dismissive of the technique, especially the bore cut, and it takes practice to get it right, but it WORKS! This is especially effective if the tree has any forward lean to it, because it won't start to fall until you cut the strap, which you can do standing up. The only thing I'd add is to make sure you have a clear escape path planned out, at about a 45 degree angle from the opposite direction the tree will fall (hope that makes sense). I'm also big on chaps & logger's helmet. I read recently that the AVERAGE chain saw accident required 110 stitches, and I know a logger who has over 400 from one accident. Keep learning & stay safe!



Yeah i have taken some Training when i was in school. I forgot to add that in, an escape route. I always wear a hardhat and need to wear my chaps more........... i know i need to just dont that often.

Any clue what the method is called my mind is failing.....


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2013)

Dave Boyt said:


> A lot of west coast loggers are dismissive of the technique, especially the bore cut, and it takes practice to get it right, but it WORKS! This is



I don't think that west coast loggers are totally dismissive of the bore cut. Most of us, myself included, will use it when it's called for and recognize that it's another option available to us.

As a general rule the bore cut, in our type of timber, doesn't work as well as some of the other cuts. I've had better luck with the Coos Bay cut on heavy leaners, especially if the tree has any size to it.
I've used the bore cut falling small stuff, 24" and below, and it works fairly well when bucking a long log in a bind. 

Use what works. I sure wouldn't want to be limited to just a couple of techniques.


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2013)

opcorn:


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## Dave Boyt (Jan 4, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> Yeah i have taken some Training when i was in school. I forgot to add that in, an escape route. I always wear a hardhat and need to wear my chaps more........... i know i need to just dont that often.
> 
> Any clue what the method is called my mind is failing.....



I just know it as "directional felling", but there may be other names. You have to be certified in it in order to bid on any state timber harvests here in Missouri. When I took the class the first time, the instructor said he wanted me to stand next to him when he buys lottery tickets. I wasn't sure how to take that, until he added, "you cut trees like that and you're still alive? You've gotta be the luckiest SOB I know!" Nothing like a good serving of humble pie with a dozen professional loggers watching (and laughing).

I know its hard to wear chaps when it's 110 deg outside. I'm on my second pair, though. My first pair has a big rip just above the left knee. I didn't even realize it until the chain wouldn't run because it was loaded up with fibers. That's another rule... adjust the saw idle to where the chain stops spinning. It's important to realize when you've done something stupid and try not to do it again. So far, I've been lucky with only a couple of dislocations, one fracture, and various mashed finger nails. I still don't buy lottery tickets though. Not that lucky.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I don't think that west coast loggers are totally dismissive of the bore cut. Most of us, myself included, will use it when it's called for and recognize that it's another option available to us.
> 
> As a general rule the bore cut, in our type of timber, doesn't work as well as some of the other cuts. I've had better luck with the Coos Bay cut on heavy leaners, especially if the tree has any size to it.
> I've used the bore cut falling small stuff, 24" and below, and it works fairly well when bucking a long log in a bind.
> ...



Thats all i am looking to do is add to my toolbox.


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## wyk (Jan 4, 2013)

As been mentioned here before, it really depends on what you are doing. I've spent a lot of time felling in Europe, and am back there again. They use a 'traditional' face cut and like to cut as low as possible to the ground - to the extent of cleaning up the buttresses on some trees before cutting(especially beech). You can't really do this and use a humbolt cut. I also like the standard cut for speed on the smaller trees. With just small amount of practice, and sighting down the top cut, you can make your cuts meet perfectly every time, very quickly as you will see your bar as it nears and meets the top cut. It's handy when you have a hillside full of smallish(10-20" dbh) trees that need to go quickly. If you look on your chainsaw, you'll see there is a sighting groove on the top of it and not just the sides. That is for lining up your cuts when you start it the 'european' way, with the top cut first. It gets harder to do with larger trees unless you leave a small piece at the end and nip it later as the wood can be heavy, or if the tree is large enough(like 4'DBH+) where you can just cut the face wedge into two so it falls away. But, on larger trees, I do prefer a humbolt. Some of the ash and beech we have here love to split, barber chair, and pull on you. A simple pair of side cuts and cutting the back in a 'triangle' fashion tends to relieve the pulling issue. We bore cut if a hardwood tree is leaning a lot. Some folks like to purposely make it so you have to lever the tree or wedge it over to prevent pulling and for safety. I have seen a short as a 20% face cut on smallish trees in these instances, and the use of a felling lever. While safer, mebbe, it takes more time than I care to give to small trees.

They also use much shorter bars for costs savings and safety. I, personally, use enough bar if I can to prevent having to do any more cuts than I need to. But my main set up looks like it's gonna be a 20" or 18" bar on ported 365 with a BB top end, running an 8 tooth sprocket when I am done with it, so I can use and bring just the one saw for most work. The bark here is thin, so it's enough bar most of the time with the short dawgs. I am considering getting one of the Husky tech lite bars, but that;s going to have to wait until I make a bit more cash.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> Thats all i am looking to do is add to my toolbox.



That's a good idea. Try the bore cut when you're bucking a log with bind in it...especially a large log. 
I'm not good at explaining things on here but if you have a log down across a swale with the ends supported and the rest hanging down in the middle and it's bound on top you can put a run in the top and a run in the far side...just until the kerf barely starts to close...then bore cut the center, then underbuck it to trip the cut. 
I've had a lot of luck doing it that way with logs over 36", especially with wood that's prone to slab out.


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## 137cc (Jan 4, 2013)

1270d said:


> What is the general rule for how deep folks put their notch? I've always used 75 to 80 percent dbh for the width of the hingewood. What do you pro fallers do?



The rule that says the hinge width should be 80% of the diameter isn't a good rule. It was something Soren Erikson(GOL) made up to try and make his bore/plunge cut work on small trees. And I say made up because there is no EXACT science on what the depth of your face notch should be. I've always been taught somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 is how deep your face notch should be.

The 80% sounds like a good number, but in reality will leave you with face notch's that are only 1/4 to 1/5 deep. Trust me, if you only needed to go in a 1/4 or less to be safe probably most everyone here out west would do that. Being that it is faster than going 1/3 to 1/2 deep on your fact notch. But going 1/4 or less on every tree is going to give you more problems and hazards than it's worth. 

BTW, I heard that Dent's book is out of print now. That might explain some of the difficulties in getting a new copy of it.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 4, 2013)

Gologit said:


> That's a good idea. Try the bore cut when you're bucking a log with bind in it...especially a large log.
> I'm not good at explaining things on here but if you have a log down across a swale with the ends supported and the rest hanging down in the middle and it's bound on top you can put a run in the top and a run in the far side...just until the kerf barely starts to close...then bore cut the center, then underbuck it to trip the cut.
> I've had a lot of luck doing it that way with logs over 36", especially with wood that's prone to slab out.



I have done that before it works very well. before i knew that trick i accidentally slabbed a beautiful 30'' cherry log. the butt was still on the stump and the top was on a hill. I foolishly tried to buck the fist log off with an up-cut and she split full length......... yeah it wasnt pretty. you learn fast from mistakes like that. that was when i was very very green

when bucking logs on a side hill i like to cut down 6'' or so from the top, bore cut the center, and cut up from the bottom. if you line the top and bottom cut up and offset the bore cut a few saw kerfs. it will hold the log from rolling down the hill and break off once the skidder hooks onto it.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 4, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> when bucking logs on a side hill i like to cut down 6'' or so from the top, bore cut the center, and cut up from the bottom. if you line the top and bottom cut up and offset the bore cut a few saw kerfs. it will hold the log from rolling down the hill and break off once the skidder hooks onto it.



That there is a neat little trick I never thought of... Imagine it takes a little practice to perfect.


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## dk27 (Jan 4, 2013)

BTW, I heard that Dent's book is out of print now. That might explain some of the difficulties in getting a new copy of it.[/QUOTE]

Could anybody tell me if some of the pictures in that book were like reverse negative.I tried following his bucking technique ,but never could make sense of it.


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## flashhole (Jan 4, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> I have done that before it works very well. before i knew that trick i accidentally slabbed a beautiful 30'' cherry log. the butt was still on the stump and the top was on a hill. I foolishly tried to buck the fist log off with an up-cut and she split full length......... yeah it wasnt pretty. you learn fast from mistakes like that. that was when i was very very green
> 
> when bucking logs on a side hill i like to cut down 6'' or so from the top, bore cut the center, and cut up from the bottom. if you line the top and bottom cut up and offset the bore cut a few saw kerfs. it will hold the log from rolling down the hill and break off once the skidder hooks onto it.



Got a picture of this?


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## 1270d (Jan 4, 2013)

137cc said:


> The rule that says the hinge width should be 80% of the diameter isn't a good rule. It was something Soren Erikson(GOL) made up to try and make his bore/plunge cut work on small trees. And I say made up because there is no EXACT science on what the depth of your face notch should be. I've always been taught somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 is how deep your face notch should be.
> 
> The 80% sounds like a good number, but in reality will leave you with face notch's that are only 1/4 to 1/5 deep. Trust me, if you only needed to go in a 1/4 or less to be safe probably most everyone here out west would do that. Being that it is faster than going 1/3 to 1/2 deep on your fact notch. But going 1/4 or less on every tree is going to give you more problems and hazards than it's worth.
> 
> BTW, I heard that Dent's book is out of print now. That might explain some of the difficulties in getting a new copy of it.




I believe it is only necessary to make your face deep enough to achieve proper hingewood width. The depth of the cut is not what is desired, but the width. Example being if a tree had a flat side in the direction you wanted to fall it a very shallow face would be adequate. Maybe only an inch deep on a 30 in tree. If the tree has a point or root swell sticking out, you might have to go half way through the tree to get you hinge width. This appears to be the same method that mr erickson teaches. 

Another thing I do is to put my face cut in the root swell if possible, using conventional style. The face is vertical in this case and you don't cut into the bole of the log at all. Veneer buyers love this.


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## redprospector (Jan 4, 2013)

1270d said:


> I believe it is only necessary to make your face deep enough to achieve proper hingewood width. The depth of the cut is not what is desired, but the width. *Example being if a tree had a flat side in the direction you wanted to fall it a very shallow face would be adequate. Maybe only an inch deep on a 30 in tree.* If the tree has a point or root swell sticking out, you might have to go half way through the tree to get you hinge width. This appears to be the same method that mr erickson teaches.
> 
> Another thing I do is to put my face cut in the root swell if possible, using conventional style. The face is vertical in this case and you don't cut into the bole of the log at all. Veneer buyers love this.



Given your example, I don't know why you'd bother making a "face cut" in that tree at all. 

Andy


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## 1270d (Jan 4, 2013)

Kind of like scoring a piece of glass where you want it to break.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Given your example, I don't know why you'd bother making a "face cut" in that tree at all.
> 
> Andy



You could do it. Just use your pocket-knife instead of a saw.


I've cut some pretty small faces but I don't think I ever cut a 1 incher. I don't know if I could.


Andy, loan me your finger nail file.


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## 1270d (Jan 4, 2013)

I actually carry a fingernail file for this exact purpose. And a quick touch up to the nails between tanks:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## redprospector (Jan 4, 2013)

1270d said:


> Kind of like scoring a piece of glass where you want it to break.



A 30" tree ain't glass.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jan 4, 2013)

Gologit said:


> You could do it. Just use your pocket-knife instead of a saw.
> 
> 
> I've cut some pretty small faces but I don't think I ever cut a 1 incher. I don't know if I could.
> ...



Ok, but it's attached to my toe-nail clippers.

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Ok, but it's attached to my toe-nail clippers.
> 
> Andy



Well, just soak them both in rubbing alcohol for 24 hours and send 'em. Wait...make that 36 hours for the toe nailclippers.


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## redprospector (Jan 4, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Well, just soak them both in rubbing alcohol for 24 hours and send 'em. Wait...make that 36 hours for the toe nailclippers.



Ok, if you think that'll do it.
I'm the only person that I know who the TSA told to put their boots back on while going through security. 

Andy


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## hammerlogging (Jan 4, 2013)

1270d said:


> I actually carry a fingernail file for this exact purpose. And a quick touch up to the nails between tanks:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



This is by far the coolest response to "new guy" harrassment I've ever read. Well done.


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## RandyMac (Jan 4, 2013)

Oh goody, a bunch of new experts. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> This is by far the coolest response to "new guy" harrassment I've ever read. Well done.



Yup, even if he does put in face cuts that are too small to be seen by the naked eye.  He'll probably do alright here.


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> Oh goody, a bunch of new experts. :hmm3grin2orange:



Well, with HBRN gone and Logbutcher in perma-ban status...we need some new blood. At least this guy has a sense of humor. He'll need it. 

Hey, a little off topic here but what size boots do you wear?


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## RandyMac (Jan 4, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Well, with HBRN gone and Logbutcher in perma-ban status...we need some new blood. At least this guy has a sense of humor. He'll need it.
> 
> Hey, a little off topic here but what size boots do you wear?



11D
What is on your mind Boss?


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## closetoreality (Jan 4, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> 11D
> What is on your mind Boss?



He's indirectly trying to figure out how much your packin.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 4, 2013)

flashhole said:


> Got a picture of this?



Sorry no pictures. I learned it from a guy that cut in front of a forwarder. the boom on the forwarder could not reach some of the logs he bucked off (ussually down over a bank). he would cut the logs like i mentioned and if the forwarder operator could get to the first log he could pull the others (if there were any) within reach. he said it worked out now and then if it didnt then they would just get out of the forwarder and use the winch.


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## RandyMac (Jan 4, 2013)

closetoreality said:


> He's indirectly trying to figure out how much your packin.



you can go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

closetoreality said:


> He's indirectly trying to figure out how much your packin.



I'll thank you NOT to explain to anybody else what I've said or what I might mean by saying it. I don't need, or particularly want, your help. Thanks anyway.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 5, 2013)

opcorn::givebeer: let the kung fu begin


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2013)

jeepyfz450 said:


> when bucking logs on a side hill i like to cut down 6'' or so from the top, bore cut the center, and cut up from the bottom. if you line the top and bottom cut up and offset the bore cut a few saw kerfs. it will hold the log from rolling down the hill and break off once the skidder hooks onto it.



Isn't that called a Russian Coupling or something like? And I've seen where the logs didn't break off. The siderod was furious, and the fallers got sent down into the brush with the rigging crew and had to buck the logs properly. I don't think they got paid for the extra work either. It was on some seriously steep ground.


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## RandyMac (Jan 5, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> opcorn::givebeer: let the kung fu begin



I'll deal with you later :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

slowp said:


> Isn't that called a Russian Coupling or something like? And I've seen where the logs didn't break off. The siderod was furious, and the fallers got sent down into the brush with the rigging crew and had to buck the logs properly. I don't think they got paid for the extra work either. It was on some seriously steep ground.



Yup, Russian coupling. If you do it right it's a good trick to use. If you do it wrong you can bust up some valuable timber. If we were looking at sidehill runaways on steep ground we'd usually leave the tallest stumps we could down hill from the buck, cut them clean, and just let 'em fly. I've seen some bad slab-outs when that Russian coupling was a little too big and I've seen some bad runaways and slide backs when they were a little too small and broke off before anybody was ready for them.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2013)

I believe the siderod called it a :censored: :censored: russian coupling.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

slowp said:


> I believe the siderod called it a :censored: :censored: russian coupling.



Yup...that's the one. You didn't put in enough cuss words, though.:rolleyes2: Some of the runaways would go clear to the road. We told the side rod we wouldn't charge extra for the de-barking.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, and the high stumps would not hold the logs on the hill. I had to walk the boundary a few times after the crew left for the day, and logs would shift and roll on their own....I stayed well out of the way. It was one of those down, across the creek, and back up the other side clearcuts that aren't done on FS land anymore.


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## Cedar Ed (Jan 5, 2013)

Is anyone using the open facecut technique? I heard it's the new way.


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## Samlock (Jan 5, 2013)

Cedar Ed said:


> Is anyone using the open facecut technique? I heard it's the new way.



Few times with head leaning alder stock, in order to avoid splitting. Which that timber most likely will do no matter what.

Otherwise, a notch will always lose wood. Either it's a tall stump (humboldt) or a mutilated butt (conventional). With an open face you'll have them both.


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## closetoreality (Jan 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> you can go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.



not even worth it..


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## RandyMac (Jan 5, 2013)

closetoreality said:


> not even worth it..



You can take your latent tendencies elsewhere.


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## jeepyfz450 (Jan 5, 2013)

slowp said:


> Isn't that called a Russian Coupling or something like? And I've seen where the logs didn't break off. The siderod was furious, and the fallers got sent down into the brush with the rigging crew and had to buck the logs properly. I don't think they got paid for the extra work either. It was on some seriously steep ground.



I could see where it would cause problems if not done correctly. i have never tried it on softwoods ussually maple and beech.


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## closetoreality (Jan 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> You can take your latent tendencies elsewhere.



Who the hell are you furthermore do I owe you money? I don't think so, piss off.

Your a sensitive gal on here, hope your not like that in the brush.


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## paccity (Jan 5, 2013)

:msp_scared:


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## RandyMac (Jan 5, 2013)




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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

opcorn:


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## closetoreality (Jan 5, 2013)

Nothing to see here, I'm done pissing one liners back and forth with that pp head.


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## twochains (Jan 5, 2013)

Aw this #### just got real!  opcorn:


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## 056 kid (Jan 5, 2013)

1270d said:


> As far as learning from the old timers..... some of them are very crude in their felling technique. Some are good. But all of them are still around due to their situational awareness. Work on picking up that from the experienced guys first. Then make nice stumps. If you make your first 1000 stumps perfect, then get. killed, was it worth it? Look up, look around, be aware.



Maybe I'm missing something here but every "perfect" stump I have ever sawed was the product of a well executed fall. Aka tree in lead, saved out cause of being in lead and kept the operator safe. Of course there are many other concerns, but a good stump usually means things went right.


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## mile9socounty (Jan 5, 2013)

I see the muck hasnt reached the top of the boots yet. Had to go back and reread the whole thing to figure of the nastiness.


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## redprospector (Jan 5, 2013)

closetoreality said:


> Who the hell are you furthermore do I owe you money? I don't think so, piss off.
> 
> Your a sensitive gal on here, hope your not like that in the brush.




I think we should all work together and think of a new user name for this foolish young man. 

Andy


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## Rounder (Jan 5, 2013)

Who is the bestest ever super-saw port hole builder for my Stihl Farm Boss?

Oops... my bad...thought this was the chainsaw forum.


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## RandyMac (Jan 5, 2013)

Rounder said:


> Who is the bestest ever super-saw port hole builder for my Stihl Farm Boss?
> 
> Oops... my bad...thought this was the chainsaw forum.



wat kin'a earl you deep fryn' dat en?


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## Rounder (Jan 5, 2013)

Hope you all had a good safe week - Happy New Year - Sam


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## mile9socounty (Jan 5, 2013)




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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

Thanks Sam. Right back to you.



And...I need to buy a saw. Which saw should I buy? I want one that will prune rose bushes, cut OG Redwood, mill 36inch slabs, mow the lawn, run forever on darn poor maintenance, look really cool in the back of my pickup, and not cost over 300 dollars. Any ideas?


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## redprospector (Jan 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Thanks Sam. Right back to you.
> 
> 
> 
> And...I need to buy a saw. Which saw should I buy? I want one that will prune rose bushes, cut OG Redwood, mill 36inch slabs, mow the lawn, run forever on darn poor maintenance, look really cool in the back of my pickup, and not cost over 300 dollars. Any ideas?



I would recomend one of those green & purple Wild Thangs.

Andy


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## mile9socounty (Jan 5, 2013)

Homelite 330 is a must have. It will take care of all your needs. Even as a wind chime.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2013)

:msp_bored:

Good night.


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

slowp said:


> :msp_bored:
> 
> Good night.



'Nite. Sorry you're bored.





























Okay, she's gone. Now we can start telling Forester jokes.


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## 2dogs (Jan 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Thanks Sam. Right back to you.
> 
> 
> 
> And...I need to buy a saw. Which saw should I buy? I want one that will prune rose bushes, cut OG Redwood, mill 36inch slabs, mow the lawn, run forever on darn poor maintenance, look really cool in the back of my pickup, and not cost over 300 dollars. Any ideas?



... missed your daily meds again huh?


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## mile9socounty (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh hey look yall!!! Its the space shuttle!!!!


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## Gologit (Jan 5, 2013)

2dogs said:


> ... missed your daily meds again huh?



Pfffffft.


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## TreeTangler (Jan 5, 2013)

Well this sure got interesting lol. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that an "open face" is a facecut with both top and bottom sloping?


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## redprospector (Jan 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> 'Nite. Sorry you're bored.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think she's trying to trick you into putting your foot in your mouth.

Andy


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## 2dogs (Jan 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Pfffffft.



I just read the average American eats 63 dozen donuts per year.


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I think she's trying to trick you into putting your foot in your mouth.
> 
> Andy



It's worked before.


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2013)

2dogs said:


> I just read the average American eats 63 dozen donuts per year.



Hmmm...I'm falling behind. Do Donettos count?


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 6, 2013)

Gologit said:


> And...I need to buy a saw. Which saw should I buy? I want one that will prune rose bushes, cut OG Redwood, mill 36inch slabs, mow the lawn, run forever on darn poor maintenance, look really cool in the back of my pickup, and not cost over 300 dollars. Any ideas?



I recommend a PRO saw, cause homeowner saws are to heavy and gutless for anything and everything. You'll need to pay twice as much as you want to and then get it ported otherwise it'll be a dog. Oh yeah, it's gotta be made by whichever brand it was you said you weren't interested in as well, the one with the closest dealer 500 miles away

Good luck :jester:


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## dooby (Jan 6, 2013)

*Aghhem!!!!*



northmanlogging said:


> steep slope is supposed to break the fibers, and give you more control of the fall... when you have to shallow of a face angle, that gap closes to early and then the stem will lift off the stump literally pulling fiber out to do so, you also lose control prematurely, since your holding wood is now pulled out and therefore only holding onto air.


 NOT TO MENTION THE POTENTIAL FOR A BARBER CHAIR.i read the last page n skipped to the front .i know this gets better!


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## redprospector (Jan 6, 2013)

dooby said:


> NOT TO MENTION THE POTENTIAL FOR A BARBER CHAIR.i read the last page n skipped to the front .i know this gets better!



Why, I've cut litterally dozen's of tree's and never had one.....Wait a minute....that was a different thread. 

Andy


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## dooby (Jan 6, 2013)

*Agreed*



mile9socounty said:


> i see the muck hasnt reached the top of the boots yet. Had to go back and reread the whole thing to figure of the nastiness.



mmeeee toooo


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## dooby (Jan 6, 2013)

*i think its "yep'*



TreeTangler said:


> Well this sure got interesting lol. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that an "open face" is a facecut with both top and bottom sloping?



this was alot of reading{3 beers}. Out here we call it a birds mouth.use it a lot on heavy leaners with a worthy diameter. There are alot of good cutters on this site.Some are full of sh$t though.And we can't mess w/ someone who has 11,000plus entries :taped: i read through this like some couch-locked house rat. it was good !oh!I am a couch locked house rat L.O.L. . oNLY FOR 3 MORE DAYS THOUGH THEN ITS BACK TO THE TIMBERuttahere2:


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## KiwiBro (Jan 6, 2013)

On a more serious note, recent experimentation can confirm that a 79cc saw with 32" bar trims waist high hedges REAL fast. It does leave slopping short back and side cuts and stalks but also more time for holiday refreshments and fishing.

You're Welcome.

As you were...


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## redprospector (Jan 6, 2013)

dooby said:


> this was alot of reading{3 beers}. Out here we call it a birds mouth.use it a lot on heavy leaners with a worthy diameter. There are alot of good cutters on this site.Some are full of sh$t though.And we can't mess w/ someone who has 11,000plus entries :taped: i read through this like some couch-locked house rat. it was good !oh!I am a couch locked house rat L.O.L. . oNLY FOR 3 MORE DAYS THOUGH THEN ITS BACK TO THE TIMBERuttahere2:



Hahaha. You can mess with anybody you want to, regardless of their post count. It's all in good fun. 
As my dear old dad would have said. It's not the year model that counts, it's the miles on the odometer....and the fuel used to put them there. 
I'm ready to get back to work too. Winter sux.

Andy


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 6, 2013)

dooby said:


> this was alot of reading{3 beers}. Out here we call it a birds mouth.use it a lot on heavy leaners with a worthy diameter. There are alot of good cutters on this site.Some are full of sh$t though.*And we can't mess w/ someone who has 11,000plus entries* :taped: i read through this like some couch-locked house rat. it was good !oh!I am a couch locked house rat L.O.L. . oNLY FOR 3 MORE DAYS THOUGH THEN ITS BACK TO THE TIMBERuttahere2:



Why not?


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## rwoods (Jan 6, 2013)

1270d said:


> As far as learning from the old timers..... some of them are very crude in their felling technique. Some are good. But all of them are still around due to their situational awareness. Work on picking up that from the experienced guys first. Then make nice stumps. If you make your first 1000 stumps perfect, then get. killed, was it worth it? *Look up, look around, be aware*.





056 kid said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here but every "perfect" stump I have ever sawed was the product of a well executed fall. Aka tree in lead, saved out cause of being in lead and kept the operator safe. Of course there are many other concerns, but a good stump usually means things went right.



Kid, I think his point was simply that which I highlighted. He is just reminding us that many fallers have left a "perfect" stump but was killed in the process. There have been several falling videos posted on this site where the follow up comments were "Great job excepted you never looked up." If he was advocating that falling technique is over-rated then IMO he is clearly wrong. Ron


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. You can mess with anybody you want to, regardless of their post count. It's all in good fun.
> As my dear old dad would have said. It's not the year model that counts, it's the miles on the odometer....and the fuel used to put them there.
> I'm ready to get back to work too. Winter sux.
> 
> Andy



Yup.


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## 1270d (Jan 6, 2013)

rwoods said:


> *Kid, I think his point was simply that which I highlighted. He is just reminding us that many fallers have left a "perfect" stump but was killed in the process. There have been several falling videos posted on this site where the follow up comments were "Great job excepted you never looked up."*


*

Yep.*


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## 1270d (Jan 6, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. You can mess with anybody you want to, regardless of their post count. It's all in good fun.
> As my dear old dad would have said. It's not the year model that counts, it's the miles on the odometer....and the fuel used to put them there.
> I'm ready to get back to work too. Winter sux.
> 
> Andy




Did yo get snowed off the mountain, or how come the winter off??


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## slowp (Jan 6, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> I recommend a PRO saw, cause homeowner saws are to heavy and gutless for anything and everything. You'll need to pay twice as much as you want to and then get it ported otherwise it'll be a dog. Oh yeah, it's gotta be made by whichever brand it was you said you weren't interested in as well, the one with the closest dealer 500 miles away
> 
> Good luck :jester:



Good morning manly men!:msp_biggrin:

You forgot to add cleaning supplies. You'll need to buy soap, wax and chamois cloth to keep it clean and shiny, a swiffer for dusting, and put special shelves up so you can properly "display" your saws after you've packed them out of the woods each day. Be sure to drain the oil and gas so they don't drip on the carpet.

Oh and touch up paint. Mustn't scratch the bar either.


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## closetoreality (Jan 6, 2013)

> Originally Posted by redprospector
> Hahaha. *You can mess with anybody you want to, regardless of their post count. It's all in good fun.*
> As my dear old dad would have said. It's not the year model that counts, it's the miles on the odometer....and the fuel used to put them there.
> I'm ready to get back to work too. Winter sux.
> ...



Objection.


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2013)

closetoreality said:


> Objection.



Noted. Overruled.


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## closetoreality (Jan 6, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Noted. Overruled.


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## dooby (Jan 6, 2013)

*Hee Hawwwwww*



Gologit said:


> Noted. Overruled.



Gologit- I love a good sense of hummer.This stuff is great ! Gonna take my boy ice fishing for Kamloops Rainbow in about an hr. How are you today ? we had over 300 head elk in the lower pasture this morning.Damn i hate fixing fence-but the freezer is full


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## Gologit (Jan 6, 2013)

dooby said:


> Gologit- I love a good sense of hummer.This stuff is great ! Gonna take my boy ice fishing for Kamloops Rainbow in about an hr. How are you today ? we had over 300 head elk in the lower pasture this morning.Damn i hate fixing fence-but the freezer is full



Sounds like a good day to me. Enjoy.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 6, 2013)

dooby said:


> Gologit- I love a good sense of hummer.This stuff is great ! Gonna take my boy ice fishing for Kamloops Rainbow in about an hr. How are you today ? we had over 300 head elk in the lower pasture this morning.Damn i hate fixing fence-but the freezer is full



you should a, maybe a, check yer spelling... Or maybe you have a twisted sense of humor...


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## dooby (Jan 6, 2013)

*OOps!!!*



northmanlogging said:


> you should a, maybe a, check yer spelling... Or maybe you have a twisted sense of humor...



:hmm3grin2orange: It was most def. an error. Thank you for the correction!!!! How do i post pics on this forum? DOES ANY BODY KNOW A LOCATE ON A SILVEY JACK ???? DAMN I HATE THEIVES-USED TO OWN A FEATHERWEIGHT.I REMEMBER WORKING FOR IT THOUGH . :bang:


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## closetoreality (Jan 6, 2013)

someone say hummer? 

View attachment 271799


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## 056 kid (Jan 6, 2013)

Hopefully there where no men driving. If so he aught to know better. Getting stuck effectively turns the truck into a motel room!!


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## redprospector (Jan 6, 2013)

1270d said:


> Did yo get snowed off the mountain, or how come the winter off??



No, I didn't get snowed off the mountain. I live there. 
I'm hoping to get back to work this week. It snowed just enough that I'll make a big mess. There is no funding for the bigger jobs right now, so I'm doing little 2, 3, 5 acre jobs I can pick up. Folks that have just a few acres take a dim view of a mess, so you wait. :msp_sad:
When you contract this kind of work to the State it's either feast or famine. Right now it appears to be famine.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jan 6, 2013)

slowp said:


> Good morning manly men!:msp_biggrin:
> 
> You forgot to add cleaning supplies. You'll need to buy soap, wax and chamois cloth to keep it clean and shiny, a swiffer for dusting, and put special shelves up so you can properly "display" your saws after you've packed them out of the woods each day. Be sure to drain the oil and gas so they don't drip on the carpet.
> 
> Oh and touch up paint. Mustn't scratch the bar either.



Well crap! I guess I've been doing it all wrong.

Andy


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## 4x4American (Jan 15, 2013)

RandyMac quotes- Steep and deep, then goes the wedge, toss the sucker over the edge.

When in doubt, toss one in, give a whack, or watch it spin


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## springboard (Jan 29, 2013)

*face cut*

you guys crack me up. I must be getting too old, but I remember working with guys that had a good sese of humor such as all of you. And smart too. I still own two sets of "gunning sticks" one set is 8' and a 5'. Anyone out there know what they are? Hint: I used them on Old Growth Redwwood at the mouth of the Klamath River.


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## RandyMac (Jan 29, 2013)

springboard said:


> you guys crack me up. I must be getting too old, but I remember working with guys that had a good sese of humor such as all of you. And smart too. I still own two sets of "gunning sticks" one set is 8' and a 5'. Anyone out there know what they are? Hint: I used them on Old Growth Redwwood at the mouth of the Klamath River.



This was cut on the Klamath River.


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## 056 kid (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopefully, one day, I will be gunning my lay with a pair of 8' sticks. Gotta get back out there first. Maybe some time at sea in the mean time. Cause I can't afford to live right now in hippy town..


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## springboard (Jan 30, 2013)

Hey Randy. we probably drove right by each other back in the day. That chopper feller holding the sticks looks familiar from the bar in Klamath. Was it called the "logger"? We actually did a lot of work West of 101 but South of the Klamath river bridge for Simpson. I never got a 100,000 mbf. tree. The biggest was only 80. I remember once we had to have Cull Trans close 101 while we pulled a leaner. We had everything all set up, the back cut half done, I stood in the middle of the layout to direct the cat skinner pulling the tree because he couldn't see just the base, jumped out of the way after it pulled past center. The company boy's told us later that traffic was backed up both directions for 5 miles! Now that was a good adrenileee'n day. You must live in C.C?


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