# Any downside to a block-out face cut for control?



## s219 (Sep 11, 2012)

I have an 80 ft poplar to bring down that I want to have sawn up for lumber, and to harvest the bark for poplar shakes. So I'd like to bring it down gently to minimize any damage to the bark. 

I was thinking of using a block-out face cut, since it would extend the fiber zone of the hinge as it flexes, and hopefully bring the tree down more slowly and gently. But I also have a fairly narrow opening (about 20 feet wide) to drop the tree into, to avoid damaging some beeches we want to protect. So I need to aim this tree carefully and have it fall on the money.

My thinking has always been that, barring any asymmetry/rot in the wood or other factors, the direction of the face and back cuts setup the hinge, and that determines the direction of fall. I just wanted to get a sanity check here, and make sure the use of a block-out face wouldn't compromise any control or let the tree turn more than usual. Any comments?

Since this is poplar, I should be able to make the top and bottom block cuts with the saw and then knock the block out with the back of an axe head. That ought to keep the fibers more intact than a case where the block had to be sawn out.

Thanks for any feedback,
219


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## 056 kid (Sep 11, 2012)

Unless your dealing with side lean, no the block face won't compromise accuracy. Just make sure your snipe or scarf is pointed in the right direction! I reckon I would take a big block out, the bigger the more bend you get so hopefully the slower it will commit. As for using it axe to beat the block out, go ahead and give it a go, I think youll end up sawing it out. Don't worry, as long as you match earything up you won't be giving up anything. Boring in vertically behind the block might even slow it more. What dbh is said poplar anyhow?


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## s219 (Sep 11, 2012)

056, thanks for the input. The poplar is right around 20-22" dbh, and I reckon 18" over most of the trunk. It's one of those long straight poplars with a lollipop top that must have grown like a weed -- it can't be very old based on what I know about previous timbering operations here, but I won't know for sure until I count the rings.

I figure I will cut in 1/4-1/3 diameter when making the block, and use about the same sizing for the block height, plus a little more to give it room to go over all the way. It would actually be good if the butt stayed on the stump while we harvest the bark -- that would keep it out of the mud and give room for cutting rings in the bark.

I will definitely keep eyeballing the sights with this one! The good news is that the tree is very sound top to bottom, so I should have time to make the cuts precisely and adjust if needed.


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## RandyMac (Sep 11, 2012)

1/4 to 1/3? go 45% for a block cut.


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## trees2 (Sep 12, 2012)

Why don't you just use an open face notch? There is nothing safer or better than that. Unless you rig it down . How close can you get to it with a truck or is it in the bush? What's the ground like around it ? flat , rocky , steep .


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

trees2 said:


> Why don't you just use an open face notch? There is nothing safer or better than that. Unless you rig it down . How close can you get to it with a truck or is it in the bush? What's the ground like around it ? flat , rocky , steep .



A block cut face, especially if you use a snipe on it, will let the tree down a little easier and give more control over how fast it falls.

The OP is trying to avoid damage to the tree and a block face will help him with that.

The block face is one of the cuts we use out here on large brittle timber to help avoid breakage and damage.


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## madhatte (Sep 12, 2012)

trees2 said:


> There is nothing safer or better than that.



Careful with "absolutes". There's -- ahem -- _always_ an exception.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Careful with "absolutes". There's -- ahem -- _always_ an exception.



I dunno...maybe East of the Rockies there's some kind of weird gravitational coriolois effect anti-matter kinda sorta scientifical thing that allows absolutes in timber cutting. Could be.

Hey...you've been to school...speak to us in formulae. :msp_biggrin:


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## 137cc (Sep 12, 2012)

*Not again*



trees2 said:


> Why don't you just use an open face notch? There is nothing safer or better than that. Unless you rig it down . How close can you get to it with a truck or is it in the bush? What's the ground like around it ? flat , rocky , steep .



Sounds like we have another who has been schooled by GOL. I wonder what level logger he is?


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## madhatte (Sep 12, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Hey...you've been to school...speak to us in formulae. :msp_biggrin:



((1*/*(distance from Mississippi River in miles)*^*current local magnetic declination in degrees)***(bar length in inches/wood hardness in Rockwell units)) */* _(who's your daddy)_ *=* best cut to use




To clarify, declination will be an "E" or "W" value depending on location, and are to be expressed as a (+) value for "E" and (-) value for "W". This is not to infer that "E" is somehow better than "W", but rather to conform to the English-language convention of writing left-to-right on the page.


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## s219 (Sep 12, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> 1/4 to 1/3? go 45% for a block cut.



Can you go into more detail on that -- like what the mechanics are of a deeper block? I was thinking normal type of ~33% depth for the block, and then a snipe on the stump to give the butt some room as it goes over. 

I will sketch the cuts out with chalk before committing -- that should let me eyeball the proportions of everything and tweak it to look right (I'm of the notion that you know it's good when the cut looks right). I don't normally think about it this much, but there is a lot riding on this one tree....


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

137cc said:


> Sounds like we have another who has been schooled by GOL. I wonder what level logger he is?



Meh, he's not too bad a guy...for an easterner. He's actually made some pretty sensible posts.

Besides, he and I have a deal....no East-West arguing. That deal is probably as much a burden on him as it is on me.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

s219 said:


> Can you go into more detail on that -- like what the mechanics are of a deeper block? I was thinking normal type of ~33% depth for the block, and then a snipe on the stump to give the butt some room as it goes over.
> 
> I will sketch the cuts out with chalk before committing -- that should let me eyeball the proportions of everything and tweak it to look right (I'm of the notion that you know it's good when the cut looks right). I don't normally think about it this much, but there is a lot riding on this one tree....





The snipe is important, too. Some guys tend to cut it a little too steep, too much of an angle, and all it does is drop the butt a little quicker.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

madhatte said:


> ((1*/*(distance from Mississippi River in miles)*^*current local magnetic declination in degrees)***(bar length in inches/wood hardness in Rockwell units)) */* _(who's your daddy)_ *=* best cut to use
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah! That's exactly the same equation I came up with.


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## GASoline71 (Sep 12, 2012)

But he forgot the Copenhagen Coefficient... more snoose = less stump shot...

Gary


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> But he forgot the Copenhagen Coefficient... more snoose = less stump shot...
> 
> Gary



fiber puller


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## GASoline71 (Sep 12, 2012)

I am a closet fiber puller...

Gary


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## trees2 (Sep 12, 2012)

How may years have most of you been falling timber for ?


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> But he forgot the Copenhagen Coefficient... more snoose = less stump shot...
> 
> Gary



You're right! He missed some things. He also forgot the effect of having leather laces in one boot and nylon in the other. 

And there's the mis-matched sock syndrome.

The "one suspension tab busted off on your tin hat" can completely throw all your calculations into turmoil...and causes many mismatched cuts.

And we shouldn't leave out the total summation of the negative traction reaction when your calks are worn down a little too far.

Maybe we better send Nate down to HSU for a refresher course?


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> I am a closet fiber puller...
> 
> Gary



TMI Gary.
I'm too tired to be constructive, resorting to arcane insults.


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## GASoline71 (Sep 12, 2012)

Workin' graves again mang?

The shifts I'm workin' are kickin' my ass.

Gary


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

Yeah, 6pm to 6am and moving stuff to the new house, painting.....

Gary, take off the Wellies and the straw hat, ya farmer.


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## GASoline71 (Sep 12, 2012)

Just moved myslef pard'. Me and the missus moved onto 3 wooded acres with a house and a 40'X40' shop. Already got deer stands set up... but there is still a lot of crap to get finished as far as getting the house and shop set up for dwellin'.. 

I'm harvesting weeds right now for firewood for next year... so a farmin' I will go! 

Gary


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

trees2 said:


> How may years have most of you been falling timber for ?



_Most_ of us...or _all_ of us?


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

Gary....RandyMac....you guys going to LaPine next week?


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## GASoline71 (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm not Bob... Too far for me to go. One of these years...

***Randy should chime in with "putz"***



Gary


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## trees2 (Sep 12, 2012)

all of you, youngest to oldest


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## slowp (Sep 12, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> I am a closet fiber puller...
> 
> Gary




Not anymore. Looks like you just "came out". Will you be considered a Farmer Logger now? :msp_smile:


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## GASoline71 (Sep 12, 2012)

trees2 said:


> all of you, youngest to oldest



I started when I was 16...



slowp said:


> Not anymore. Looks like you just "came out". Will you be considered a Farmer Logger now? :msp_smile:



Do I have to wear Crocs?

Gary


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## slowp (Sep 12, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> I started when I was 16...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, but not purple ones. Those are mine. 

I'm not a faller. Or a feller. Or a fella.


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## 056 kid (Sep 12, 2012)

Less than 10, more than 5, I don't know really...


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

I retired from logging, means I sit on my butt all day, at reduced pay.


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## trees2 (Sep 12, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> I retired from logging, means I sit on my butt all day, at reduced pay.



So how many years did you log for.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

trees2 said:


> So how many years did you log for.



Ever see the Mojave Desert? It used to be the Mojave National Forest...until Randy came along.


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Ever see the Mojave Desert? It used to be the Mojave National Forest...until Randy came along.



yeah and the headwaters of the Eel began when I took a leak.

will be back, gotta head to work. Rumor has it, the days of employment might be numbered.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> yeah and the headwaters of the Eel began when I took a leak.
> 
> will be back, gotta head to work. Rumor has it, the days of employment might be numbered.



Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

Kinda neutral at the moment, we are set for a couple years.


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## madhatte (Sep 12, 2012)

Gologit said:


> He missed some things.



This is the simplified version. It's sufficient in most cases for telling the difference between apples and oranges. It can't help you to tell between Braeburns and Pink Ladies. The supplementary details will be covered in a future lesson.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

madhatte said:


> This is the simplified version. It's sufficient in most cases for telling the difference between apples and oranges. It can't help you to tell between Braeburns and Pink Ladies. The supplementary details will be covered in a future lesson.



Noted.


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## FSburt (Sep 12, 2012)

Hey Gologit is this snipe too steep?
View attachment 252666


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

FSburt said:


> Hey Gologit is this snipe too steep?
> View attachment 252666



Is ok by me.


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

Gologit said:


> What snipe? And what's with all the cuts? What am I missing here?



A GOL tryin' to go straight.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

FSburt said:


> Hey Gologit is this snipe too steep?
> View attachment 252666





I missed the first picture. The snipe is fine, Burt. I usually don't go quite that steep but that's just me.


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## Gologit (Sep 12, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> A GOL tryin' to go straight.



I missed the first picture...trying to multi task, drink coffee and type all at once. :msp_rolleyes:


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## RandyMac (Sep 12, 2012)

I once sniped a big Fir so deep and steep, I heard chinese.


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## RandyMac (Sep 13, 2012)

trees2 said:


> So how many years did you log for.



There is a lot of difference between logging and falling timber. Logging is a general term, with a multitude of various jobs. I did several different types of tree falling, general forestry like fuel breaks, hazard removal, fire-line stuff, commercial timber from Lodgepole to OG Redwood and my personal favorite, eh, sport falling, where I looked for the biggest, nastiest snags and old hardwoods to "practice" on.
Due to a few things, some beyond my control, (like insanity) I roamed Northern California going from job to job for about 14 years. It wasn't all glorious, but I was given chances to fall just about any type of tree there was. Keep in mind, it wasn't 14 years of timber falling, I set chokers, chased landing, cut brush/slash, drove trucks (and crashed them) fought wild fires.... Sometimes there was good money to be made, most of which went down a rat-hole that was my lifestyle. 
The best part of the whole thing, besides causing noisy events, were the men I worked with, some of them make me seem like a schoolgirl in comparison. Can't leave out all the wonderful places, the sights, the scenery, the acres of splintered wood and chewed earth. The scents of Mother Earth being, ahhh, utilized. Yes, all the garden spots, like Yeagar Creek.


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## trees2 (Sep 13, 2012)

FSburt said:


> Hey Gologit is this snipe too steep?
> View attachment 252666



Still don't know why your stumps are so high. Must have a bad back


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## RandyMac (Sep 13, 2012)

trees2 said:


> Still don't know why your stumps are so high. Must have a bad back



You need to come West and you will know why.


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## trees2 (Sep 13, 2012)

I realize about the root swell and I know sometimes you have to cut out a notch just to stand on . But in that pic whats the reason ? It's just another cut to make and another piece to pick up . It don't make sence


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## RandyMac (Sep 13, 2012)

be specific


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## trees2 (Sep 13, 2012)

Sorry my bad , I didn't realize the pic was in the woods and not a dooryard tree. You see, this is all I have done all my life. I have 39 years now both logging and arborist work.So I do have an extensive background in these fields.


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## floyd (Sep 13, 2012)

That is a good resume. 

Have you ever worked on 80% ground?

Try to picture walking around a tree where you cannot reach the tree/ground interface on the uphill side when you are on the downhill side because it is above your head.

And there you have it...high stumps.


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## trees2 (Sep 13, 2012)

floyd said:


> That is a good resume.
> 
> Have you ever worked on 80% ground?
> 
> ...



Yes I have logged in New Hampshire in parts that are verry steep but I'm not talking about on steep hills i'm talking about flat ground.


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## GASoline71 (Sep 13, 2012)

Well... we aren't fallin' trees in backyards... so no ALAP.

Gary


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2012)

GASoline71 said:


> Well... we aren't fallin' trees in backyards... so no ALAP.
> 
> Gary



You were expecting the *A*lliance of *L*os *A*ngeles *P*laywrights??


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## bitzer (Sep 14, 2012)

OP: Make sure you don't bypass your cuts or you will lose all or most of the effect. Also where you put your face in proximity to roots swells and what not will effect it. You'll want a higher stump in the straight grain for this one. Sometimes getting a tree off the stump quickly will save it out better. 

The full face dutch and heart snip has become a good friend of mine. She'll roll and drift right through standing timber. You've got to get the face and snipe just right if you need decent control though. Once shes committed its all over.


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## trees2 (Sep 14, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> You need to come West and you will know why.



Hey Randy, Is that an invitation ?


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## GASoline71 (Sep 14, 2012)

Careful what you wish for. 

Gary


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## Sport Faller (Sep 14, 2012)

Randy and Bob have been in the game so long they both started out working in Paul Bunyan's kitchen flipping pancakes with a snow shovel and feeding Babe grain out of a steam shovel :msp_biggrin:


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## RandyMac (Sep 14, 2012)

Some of Bob's stumps are on display at the Petrified Forest Museum.

This one of mine is now a major stop on the sightseeing tour on the Ave.


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## Gologit (Sep 14, 2012)

Sport Faller said:


> Randy and Bob have been in the game so long they both started out working in Paul Bunyan's kitchen flipping pancakes with a snow shovel and feeding Babe grain out of a steam shovel :msp_biggrin:



Yup...we've been around so many years that we remember when the Sierra Nevada Mountains were only three feet high.


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## s219 (Sep 17, 2012)

*success*

Well, I brought down the poplar yesterday, and it went great. I ended up cutting the stump a higher than normal, since the bottom of the tree was a little crooked and I wanted the block face cut to be above that.

I made the face cut, and the block popped right out with one hit from the axe (gotta love poplar). My only flaw was leaving the hinge too thick -- after tapping in all of my wedges, I had to bore back in and remove a little more hinge before the tree went over. So that cost me a $5 wedge and sprayed some orange chips, but no big deal.

Once the back cut was right, the tree went over smooth as silk and very slow, and landed right where I wanted. There was a lot of groaning from the hinge fibers that I haven't heard with a regular wedge face.

Thanks to all that gave input.


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## Gologit (Sep 17, 2012)

s219 said:


> Well, I brought down the poplar yesterday, and it went great. I ended up cutting the stump a higher than normal, since the bottom of the tree was a little crooked and I wanted the block face cut to be above that.
> 
> I made the face cut, and the block popped right out with one hit from the axe (gotta love poplar). My only flaw was leaving the hinge too thick -- after tapping in all of my wedges, I had to bore back in and remove a little more hinge before the tree went over. So that cost me a $5 wedge and sprayed some orange chips, but no big deal.
> 
> ...


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## slowp (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks for a follow up. So many don't let us know what happened.


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## s219 (Sep 17, 2012)

slowp said:


> Thanks for a follow up. So many don't let us know what happened.



They must not survive to come back and tell their story!


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## madhatte (Sep 17, 2012)

s219 said:


> There was a lot of groaning from the hinge fibers that I haven't heard with a regular wedge face.



Groaning just means the hinge is doing its job. Props!


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