# Rigging question. Sort of.



## OH_Varmntr (Apr 17, 2012)

Howdy,
I've been working on clearing a ditchbank on a 210-acre farm and have come across a 32ft flatbed 5th wheel trailer that I have purchased to haul logs back to my house with. It's been cut shorter and has had one of the three axles removed, so it's now a tandem axle. The lower deck is 24ft and the upper is 8ft, with stake pockets all around on both decks. I've paid for it but am currently awaiting my 5th wheel hitch to come in so I can go pick it up. 

I'm planning on dragging logs onto the deck using a combination of snatchblocks, aircraft cable, and my four wheeler (~600lbs dry weight, ~850 with oil, gas, rider, gear). I've been looking at log weights online and figured if I can keep the logs to about 16' long it should keep the log weights under 2000lbs. Most of the logs I'll be hauling are under 18" diameter and vary in species. I'll have temporary access to a loader but on the days I don't all I have is my fourwheeler.

I've been thinking of a few ways to rig. The first would be running a choker from the log to a snatchblock mounted to the top deck and then pulling the tag line with my fourwheeler straight back from the rear of the trailer. I believe that would double the pulling force of the fourwheeler. 

Second would have the cable anchored to the top deck, back through a snatchblock fixed to a choker on the log, back to a snatchblock mounted next to the anchor on the top deck, then pulling the tag line with my four wheeler. If I pulled straight back from the rear of the trailer it would triple the pulling force of the fourwheeler. 

Third, I could parbuckle them up from the side. I would have to build some ramps but that's not a big deal. I'd mount a snatchblock to a reinforced stake and be able to transfer it to either side of the trailer for convenience in loading. Cables would be anchored to the side of the trailer in 2 places and would meet a single cable which would be ran to the stake-mounted snatchblock then the tag line of the cable would be pulled with my four wheeler. I'm not sure how this technique would multiply the pulling force.

eBay has some 10-ton snatchblocks for ~$40 each. If I keep log weights under 2k and straight pull them up the rear of the trailer, I figured max tension on the blocks and cable would be 6000lbs, and that's with perfect traction with my four wheeler, which I won't have, so I don't think I'll come close to that. I plan on running 3/8" aircraft cable. If I parbuckle them up I don't think I'll see near what I would straight pulling them up since the logs will be used as a pulley in the system. I might have to use a combination of the techniques as not all logs are going to be straight so they won't be as easy to parbuckle as others.

Am I on the right track here with doing what I can with what I have? Any recommendations? I definately want to over-do it as safety is important to me since I'll be out there along much of the time and will be doing this alone.


----------



## hammerlogging (Apr 17, 2012)

I say go for something along the parbuckle concept. Don't forget you could put a bunch of wraps on the log so it rolls before you go into a brute force parbuckle method. Why anchor off on a stake, put your pulling system on one side and your log deck on the other. Branches work for ramps, notch and go.


----------



## Humptulips (Apr 17, 2012)

OH_Varmntr said:


> Howdy,
> I've been working on clearing a ditchbank on a 210-acre farm and have come across a 32ft flatbed 5th wheel trailer that I have purchased to haul logs back to my house with. It's been cut shorter and has had one of the three axles removed, so it's now a tandem axle. The lower deck is 24ft and the upper is 8ft, with stake pockets all around on both decks. I've paid for it but am currently awaiting my 5th wheel hitch to come in so I can go pick it up.
> 
> I'm planning on dragging logs onto the deck using a combination of snatchblocks, aircraft cable, and my four wheeler (~600lbs dry weight, ~850 with oil, gas, rider, gear). I've been looking at log weights online and figured if I can keep the logs to about 16' long it should keep the log weights under 2000lbs. Most of the logs I'll be hauling are under 18" diameter and vary in species. I'll have temporary access to a loader but on the days I don't all I have is my fourwheeler.
> ...



If you want to build ramps your best bet is to parbuckle the logs on. Might I suggest you attach your line to a stump on the opposite side of the trailer from the log and then pull straight away with your 4 wheeler. Of course this will be loading from the side but this will be less strain on your trailer and require zero blocks. If you want to use a double line to keep the log straight as it rolls up I would suggest you pick two stumps and position the trailer so that there is one front and one back. If you have to build ramps you'll need to bring all the logs to one spot to load. I see no merit in trying to load from both sides.
You are liable to have problems freeing the line when you get the log loaded. Probably have to unhook from the stump and pull the line out.

Other option is to position your trailer next to a tree and hang a block in the tree to pull the logs up onto the deck. If the tree is of any size I wouldn't think you would need guylines. This too is loading from the side. Pull through the tree not against. Line will go from log through block in tree and too 4 wheeler and pull away from log and trailer.

All and all if you have a loader available at times you would probably be best to cold deck and wait for it to load for you.


----------



## ddhlakebound (Apr 18, 2012)

OH_Varmntr said:


> I'm planning on dragging logs onto the deck using a combination of snatchblocks, aircraft cable, and my four wheeler (~600lbs dry weight, ~850 with oil, gas, rider, gear). I've been looking at log weights online and figured if I can keep the logs to about 16' long it should keep the log weights under 2000lbs. Most of the logs I'll be hauling are under 18" diameter and vary in species. I'll have temporary access to a loader but on the days I don't all I have is my fourwheeler.
> 
> I've been thinking of a few ways to rig. The first would be running a choker from the log to a snatchblock mounted to the top deck and then pulling the tag line with my fourwheeler straight back from the rear of the trailer. I believe that would double the pulling force of the fourwheeler.



This example only re-directs the pulling force, and no mechanical advantage is gained. It does double the force put on the anchor point of the re-direct.



> Second would have the cable anchored to the top deck, back through a snatchblock fixed to a choker on the log, back to a snatchblock mounted next to the anchor on the top deck, then pulling the tag line with my four wheeler. If I pulled straight back from the rear of the trailer it would triple the pulling force of the fourwheeler.



Yes, this will get you a 3:1 MA, but I think you'll still need a ramp to pull the logs up with this method. The ramp should be adjustable in some way to go over the back edge of already loaded logs. Keep in mind that you're tripling the force at the rig point. It should be overbuilt, or you'll break it down quickly hitting it with 2 or 3 tons of force over and over.



> Third, I could parbuckle them up from the side. I would have to build some ramps but that's not a big deal. I'd mount a snatchblock to a reinforced stake and be able to transfer it to either side of the trailer for convenience in loading. Cables would be anchored to the side of the trailer in 2 places and would meet a single cable which would be ran to the stake-mounted snatchblock then the tag line of the cable would be pulled with my four wheeler. I'm not sure how this technique would multiply the pulling force.



This method sounds viable. Worth testing out first at least. 



> eBay has some 10-ton snatchblocks for ~$40 each. If I keep log weights under 2k and straight pull them up the rear of the trailer, I figured max tension on the blocks and cable would be 6000lbs, and that's with perfect traction with my four wheeler, which I won't have, so I don't think I'll come close to that. I plan on running 3/8" aircraft cable. If I parbuckle them up I don't think I'll see near what I would straight pulling them up since the logs will be used as a pulley in the system. I might have to use a combination of the techniques as not all logs are going to be straight so they won't be as easy to parbuckle as others.



$40 10ton blocks sound sketchy cheap to me.....I'd check 'em out pretty good (manufacturer reputation, materials, method of manufacture) before I bought. There is ALOT of cheap, poorly made knock off crap on ebay these days.


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 18, 2012)

I have used a parbuckle of sorts to load short logs only. It works well. Too sleepy to post more right now.


----------



## OH_Varmntr (Apr 18, 2012)

I can only dream of logs that perfectly round around here! 

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I figured I had the pulling power multiplying off, so thanks for clearing it up for me.

I'm going to keep thinking of different parbuckling methods.


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 18, 2012)

if by parbuckle you mean rolling the logs on from the side it is definetly the way to go. its how the old timers loaded rail cars back in the day, it can be done with one line ran under the log back to a snatch block so the log acts like a big snatch block its self. Or you can use two lines for more control and be a little less precise on line placement. Either way do attach anchor point to a stump trailers don't like that much side force. use ramps to clear the tires/ fenders, and get a good peavy/cant hook. (I prefer the peavy) it will make minor adjustments and steering the logs a whole lot easier. Pulling the logs up from the end of the trailer is a bloody night mare even with a ramp and a proper winch plus its a lots easier to roll a log than to drag one. One last thing lay a couple 4x4 ish boards down on the trailer deck before loading logs that way the logs are slightly elevated and ya's can get yer cable free and throw yer binder chains under the load without having to jack up every freakin log 14 times oh yeah bring yer highlift jack you will need it, and a come along, better yet call a self loader... it is a lot of work but it can and has been done


----------



## tramp bushler (Apr 18, 2012)

Going under the bottom and over the top will roll the log up your ramps and onto the trailer easy pie .
I have loaded 500 lb 8' logs onto my truck using 2x4 ramps and 1/2" rope pulling the rope by hand .. 
I tail holt to the deck of my truck . Stand on the deck and start pulling . For longer logs using 2 lines , one toward each end will work best . The 4x4 s on the deck is a good idea . 
You'll want to come up with an easy but good way to keep the ramps where they should be . 
A 12 volt 4 wheeler winch will give u all the pulling force u need . 

Your going to be doing LOTS of climbing on and off the trailer , so have a ladder with you .!! Be very careful with the Handyman jack . They'll gitcha bad .


----------



## Humptulips (Apr 18, 2012)

2dogs said:


> I have used a parbuckle of sorts to load short logs only. It works well. Too sleepy to post more right now.



That is not a parbuckle. Just a roll on the log. Looks like a nice piece of cedar though, redwood?
Never been around any redwood.


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 18, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> That is not a parbuckle. Just a roll on the log. Looks like a nice piece of cedar though, redwood?
> Never been around any redwood.



Correct it is not quite a parbuckle. I know what one is but this is the only pic I have of how we sometimes load logs on a trailer. We do use a parbuckle at times but with very round pices this is the way to go.

It is a piece of redwood that was washed down the river during a storm. We received permission from the permit holder to salvage it. It was one of several pieces that were in the wrong place to be considered large woody debris. Everything else was cut into 6' lengths and stayed in the river channel.


----------



## q-tip jr (Apr 18, 2012)

At lot of old deck sites in the Maine woods a pit can still be found where a truck was backed into and logs simply rolled peavey style, saw a brow once too all filled in with dirt and where the horses would pull onto and the top of the brow was probably mid stake level, unhook right there and roll onto truck, loaded many oak bolts back in the day like tramp was describing, like my loader a lot now that I think about it...


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 18, 2012)

q-tip jr said:


> At lot of old deck sites in the Maine woods a pit can still be found where a truck was backed into and logs simply rolled peavey style, saw a brow once too all filled in with dirt and where the horses would pull onto and the top of the brow was probably mid stake level, unhook right there and roll onto truck, loaded many oak bolts back in the day like tramp was describing, like my loader a lot now that I think about it...



Oak bolts? What are those? Out here we have shake bolts that shingles were split off of. They are about 1 1/2 to 2 feet long. In my area the shake bolts are redwood but I think cedar is more common. Maybe fir shake bolts too where there was only fir.


----------



## q-tip jr (Apr 18, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Oak bolts? What are those? Out here we have shake bolts that shingles were split off of. They are about 1 1/2 to 2 feet long. In my area the shake bolts are redwood but I think cedar is more common. Maybe fir shake bolts too where there was only fir.



If you saw all the white hair, you could date the era of which I speak, mom and pop bolt mills were abundant once upon a time - these 56" bolts were for furniture stock as well as lobster trap stock, when they were still wooden, a place in Eddington I think still may be at it making handles out of bolts - place called Peavey Manufacturing good web site for a lot of hard to find things needing new handles... I also cut white pine bolts for a now closed bolt mill which turned large (4-6") dowels to attach at the end of a textile loom upon which the cloth was wound and they made construction columns for porches


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks q!


----------



## q-tip jr (Apr 18, 2012)

10-4 stay up hill and safe


----------



## Humptulips (Apr 18, 2012)

q-tip jr said:


> If you saw all the white hair, you could date the era of which I speak, mom and pop bolt mills were abundant once upon a time - these 56" bolts were for furniture stock as well as lobster trap stock, when they were still wooden, a place in Eddington I think still may be at it making handles out of bolts - place called Peavey Manufacturing good web site for a lot of hard to find things needing new handles... I also cut white pine bolts for a now closed bolt mill which turned large (4-6") dowels to attach at the end of a textile loom upon which the cloth was wound and they made construction columns for porches



Interesting. Aroundhere besides shake and shingle bloocks they used to cut what was known as spool timber. There was a mill that turned them down to large dowels that they used in the paper mills to start a roll of paper on, very similar to the ones you describe for textiles.:arg:


----------



## imagineero (Apr 19, 2012)

+1 on avoiding cheap blocks. $40 for a 10 tonner sounds very optimistic. The 10 tonnes would be max breaking strain, but I think they'd break well before that. Working load for a true 10 tonne pulley is only 2 tonnes. If you're running 2:1 the pulley sees double the load which means working load limit 1 tonne. It's not hard to max out a 10 tonne pulley with a 2 tonne log and a 4x4. There's nothing 'static' about dragging a log, it's a very dynamic situation. Easy to see well over 6x the load applied to the pulley. Do go heavy on cable, and get a chain choker rather than a cable. 

Use the yarder as much as possible. Try to do something more productive on the other days. Depending on what the terrain is like (hilly, scrub, rocks, slope) and how many trees are still up if any, you have lots of rigging options available. Height is always king, if you can rig a high block your life will be a lot more pleasant. May be able to skid them straight onto the deck, but a 4x4 will never be a skidder. If you're loading in the same place every day you may be able to take advantage of terrain to get the trailer somewhere lower than the logs, or dig a trench/ramp with a dozer to make it so you dont have to lift the logs onto the deck. Hard to say without details/pics. 

What are you doing with the logs?

Shaun


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 19, 2012)

just curious but why chain chokers? is that another husky/sthil fight I personally hate the chain choker and have broke more chains than cable... just a thought


----------



## ifixbuses (Apr 19, 2012)

Im wondering about the trailer? what is the weight rating, decking material? Ive seen some scary former rvs used to haul stuff it was never intended for.Im not saying yours is scary it just sounds like it may have been an rv or somthing specialized with the3 8 foot top deck.


----------



## flushcut (Apr 19, 2012)

2dogs said:


> I have used a parbuckle of sorts to load short logs only. It works well. Too sleepy to post more right now.



I am guessing this was before you installed the winch that is sitting in the back of your truck.


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 19, 2012)

flushcut said:


> I am guessing this was before you installed the winch that is sitting in the back of your truck.



Good eyes flushcut! I can't remember exactly but I think I had another winch mounted on the front, a 9000lb winch also. Using an electric winch is really slow so whenever possible we use blocks and rope or wire rope and pull with a truck. I have several Skookum blocks in 6", 8", and 10". I also have a couple McKissick blocks. Between all of us that work together we probably have a half mile of wire rope, not to mention what is on the yarder and the skidder. The boss also has a front end loader with log forks and a slip on bucket.

BTW that Warn XD900i is in pieces in my driveway these days. Those light duty Warn winches and their motors don't last long.


----------



## flushcut (Apr 20, 2012)

2dogs said:


> BTW that Warn XD900i is in pieces in my driveway these days. Those light duty Warn winches and their motors don't last long.



I hear ya. I have been looking into Milemarker Hydro winches.


----------



## imagineero (Apr 20, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> just curious but why chain chokers? is that another husky/sthil fight I personally hate the chain choker and have broke more chains than cable... just a thought



If you've got lift and can keep things off the ground then my own feeling is cable is superior. For skulldragging over rough terrain then I've had better luck with chain. Most of the tree guys in aus use chain chokers on their chipper winches. 

Shaun


----------



## OH_Varmntr (Apr 20, 2012)

imagineero said:


> +1 on avoiding cheap blocks. $40 for a 10 tonner sounds very optimistic. The 10 tonnes would be max breaking strain, but I think they'd break well before that. Working load for a true 10 tonne pulley is only 2 tonnes. If you're running 2:1 the pulley sees double the load which means working load limit 1 tonne. It's not hard to max out a 10 tonne pulley with a 2 tonne log and a 4x4. There's nothing 'static' about dragging a log, it's a very dynamic situation. Easy to see well over 6x the load applied to the pulley. Do go heavy on cable, and get a chain choker rather than a cable.
> 
> Use the yarder as much as possible. Try to do something more productive on the other days. Depending on what the terrain is like (hilly, scrub, rocks, slope) and how many trees are still up if any, you have lots of rigging options available. Height is always king, if you can rig a high block your life will be a lot more pleasant. May be able to skid them straight onto the deck, but a 4x4 will never be a skidder. If you're loading in the same place every day you may be able to take advantage of terrain to get the trailer somewhere lower than the logs, or dig a trench/ramp with a dozer to make it so you dont have to lift the logs onto the deck. Hard to say without details/pics.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info Shaun! These logs will be hauled to my house where they'll be cut, split and stacked for firewood. There's so much wood along this ditchbank that I don't believe I'll be able to burn it all before it goes to waste. 

Here's a link to the thread I made about it awhile back. I will basically be driving along the ditchbank, loading logs as I go. So multiple loading sites and nothing to really anchor to as all the trees are cut down. As you can see, most of the trees are <12" diameter, so many of them can be handled manually. But there's some bigger stuff back there I'll rig to get it on the trailer. The bigger stuff is straighter so parbuckling should be somewhat easy. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/188108.htm



ifixbuses said:


> Im wondering about the trailer? what is the weight rating, decking material? Ive seen some scary former rvs used to haul stuff it was never intended for.Im not saying yours is  scary it just sounds like it may have been an rv or somthing specialized with the3 8 foot top deck.



The trailer was a tri-axle flatbed at one time, but was shortened and an axle was removed. Being it was a tri-axle I have no doubts the framing can withstand the rear loading, but sideloading is a different story. It has provisions for a winch mount. The trailer only has a single jack, but it had 2 before. If I can find another jack and put 2 back on it, I can lower the jacks to help side stability when parbuckling up the side. If I have to, I'll drive stakes into the ground and anchor the opposite side of the trailer to help with stability. 

Anyways, the axles are 5200#, with all four wheels having brakes. The decking is all steel, no wood. I've got 1/8" steel sheeting on the way to replace the decking as it's currently all jagged and will snag logs pretty easily. I also need to re-weld some bracing and may end up relocating the axles forward a bit as they're pretty far back so the turning radius is quite wide. It will also help keep the weight over the axles instead of over the kingpin.

There's enough wood back there that I may end up leaving the big stuff for the loader, and getting the stuff I can handle myself. But until I get out and do some trails, I won't come across any errors. 

Here's the trailer.


----------



## Humptulips (Apr 20, 2012)

After looking at that brush I think I'd buck them into firewood length and load them that way by hand. I thought you had some logs.


----------



## northmanlogging (Apr 21, 2012)

imagineero said:


> If you've got lift and can keep things off the ground then my own feeling is cable is superior. For skulldragging over rough terrain then I've had better luck with chain. Most of the tree guys in aus use chain chokers on their chipper winches.
> 
> Shaun



never thought of the dead dragging over rocks thing around here its mostly mud and ferns I leave the rocky stuff for the big outfits with real yarders. Me I'm just a gypo that hates trying to stuff a chain under a log only to have the cheap p.o.s. snap and try to take my head off... some day I'll grow up and get a real skidder and stop abusing my poor tractor (woh dream big right) guess i could shell out the cash and get the proper chain choker but why...just my skull and I'm not using it...


----------



## OH_Varmntr (Apr 21, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> After looking at that brush I think I'd buck them into firewood length and load them that way by hand. I thought you had some logs.



Haha yea I haven't added new pics in a while. A lot of it is small stuff, but there's some big stuff there too. I'm planning on cutting into 16' lengths, so I can have ~8' of lower deck space available to load the four wheeler on.


----------



## OH_Varmntr (Apr 21, 2012)

Just got back from a friends house. I blew out a tire on my truck and he had another the same size until I can get mine ordered. $242 per tire is rediculous!

Anyways, he has a 12,000# Warn winch he wants to sell me. I told him I'd give him $200 and he's seriously considering it. Even if I have to give him $400 it's still a hell of a deal as a 12000# Harbor Freight winch sells for $400. 

So we will see...


----------

