# rock climbing rope for tree climbing?



## jsirbasku (Dec 22, 2001)

I know of a climber who has been using dynamic rock climbing rope to climb trees. I am a little concerned because of the high amount of stretch in these lines, is it a safe practice do you think?
Personally i think it would be like climbing on a bungee and i dont see the real reason one would prefer this type of line other than the fact that it may be lighter and of a smaller diameter

any thoughts on this matter?


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## Dave (Dec 22, 2001)

Most rock ropes are of a smaller diameter than arborist climbing lines and don't meet ANSI standards of being 1/2" dia. minimum. I will stick with tree rope.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 22, 2001)

I worked a little with rock ropes in marines, i still have one. They are more than capable for holding a person in place, they are designed to stretch when somone falls, making the sudden stop less painful. They are not desiged to be pulled thru trees. they heat up very quickly and will melt.I tried mine 1 time and found this out ruined a perfectly good rope that i used for repelling. I still keep! why i dont know, i just dont want to pitch a 300' rope and i dont want to cut into little ropes


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 22, 2001)

The 1/2" requirement is gone now, just 5000lbs aveerage breaking stregth.
With climbers using cambium savers and pulleys, the rope should last.


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 22, 2001)

Read ANSI Z133 section 3.5

Arbo rope shall have "a minimum nominla breaking strngth of 5,400 pounds when new." 

There are other requirements too.

John,

There are some rock ropes that could work for treework. Depends on the specifications. Most dynamic rope is too stretchy to work very well for tree work. If the rope were made for aid climbing it might work for tree work too.

Tom


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## nositting (Dec 23, 2001)

I came from a rock climbing background, so when I started to climb I used a dynamic rope. I loved the dynamic lines and thought surely I'd use them in the trees. That thought lasted about 10'. There's just too much bounce when starting your climb if your cambium saver is 50' off the ground, that is unless you're free climbing a pine while on belay (i.e. like rock climbing). Walnut bark can really do a lot of damage on a 10.5mm line.


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## jlm993 (Dec 6, 2004)

I am a firefighter by trade, I got into arborist work because of my rope back ground. There are diff. kinds of climbing rope. The stuff we use for rescue work is tuff stuff. Half inch rope has a breaking strength of 9000lbs. Prob is it is stiff stuff. Can be hard to work with. Also if you are using this kind of rope all of your hardware and other software must be compatable.


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## SteveBullman (Dec 6, 2004)

i spent a year on 10.5mm rock climbing rope, never had no problems with it.
its essential you climb with a cambium saver minimum, and preferably a pulley.
i wouldnt recommend friction hitches either. i used a shunt in place of friction hitch, worked well, might even go back to it sometime.


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## DangerTree (Jul 24, 2011)

*know your ropes*

Not all ropes are created equal, Kernmantle or braided, static or dynamic- you need to consider it's use. Would it be better to fall a top onto a static rope and make the tree eat all the dynamic force, or use a dynamic rope to absorb some impact? If you were pulling a tree up a hill with a 1 ton truck, would it be better to stretch the snot out of a dynamic rope or use a static one like 1/2" wire rope? Yes I do use climbing ropes for many light duty dynamic jobs. I also save time and energy by repelling from tall trees with them. Many good climbing ropes also are more supple and both tie and hold knots better than the stiffer arbor ropes do. As a general rule climbing ropes should never be loaded by more than you can pull by hand with a 2:1 advantage. That means you should not tie it to your truck to tighten it up! The weakest link in the system should always be the force applied. The strongest should be the rope and other components. The working load of the rope is the max that can be suspended within the specified safety margin. The dynamic is the amount of force you think that 300lb top will exert on the crotch after falling 60'. Anybody know how much that would be? Anybody. I know there is a university grad out there somewhere. If so what would be the size and type of rope needed for a direct catch? and what size and type of rope would be required if a pulley was used and the rope secured at the bottom of the tree? When you can answer these questions, grasschopper, you will be ready to leave the monastery.


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## beastmaster (Jul 24, 2011)

I was at a store that sells rock climbing gear today, and was looking at some 9.7 and10mm static ropes. I was wondering if they would be useful as a SRT only line to enter trees. Most ascenders are made to work with the smaller lines anyway. I wasn't aware of ANSI requirement about climbing lines. I am assuming SNAKEBITE 10mm is ANSI compliant? Beastmaster


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## treemandan (Jul 24, 2011)

I've yo-yo-ed from some of that in a tree before. It does beat clothesline tied to beltloops though I haven't tried that.


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## 046 (Jul 24, 2011)

look at the beginning date of this thread.... talk about an old thread!


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## the Aerialist (Jul 25, 2011)

*An old thread, but a good thread ...*



046 said:


> look at the beginning date of this thread.... talk about an old thread!



Know your ropes. The only time you would ever want to use dynamic climbing line in a tree is if you took a fall onto it. Kermantle climbing rope also has a tendency to "milk" which is when the outrsheath slides out over the inner strands.

Rappelling on one is smoother and more comfortable, but both my LockJack and SpiderJack give me that on static tree line.

I'm using a dynamic 3/4 in. lowering line @ 19,000 # test. The stretch (_as determined by the length_) eases shock loading by clumsy rope men. A good rope man is better than a good rope.


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## DangerTree (Jul 25, 2011)

Old as the hills but I'm older.


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## the Aerialist (Jul 25, 2011)

*I'll wing it on this one ...*



DangerTree said:


> ... Would it be better to fall a top onto a static rope and make the tree eat all the dynamic force, or use a dynamic rope to absorb some impact?



See my post above.



DangerTree said:


> ... If you were pulling a tree up a hill with a 1 ton truck, would it be better to stretch the snot out of a dynamic rope or use a static one like 1/2" wire rope?



With the stretch comes rebound, and that can be helpful in both starting movement and overcoming obstacles.




DangerTree said:


> ... [300# falling 60'] Anybody know how much that would be? Anybody. I know there is a university grad out there somewhere. If so what would be the size and type of rope needed for a direct catch? and what size and type of rope would be required if a pulley was used and the rope secured at the bottom of the tree? When you can answer these questions, grasschopper, you will be ready to leave the monastery.



It would be easier to figure if it was 66' and not sixty but in either case it is huge, far exceeding any equipment we use in trees. you'd need a very large hawser made of steel


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## DangerTree (Jul 25, 2011)

Aerial Arborist said:


> Know your ropes. The only time you would ever want to use dynamic climbing line in a tree is if you took a fall onto it. Kermantle climbing rope also has a tendency to "milk" which is when the outrsheath slides out over the inner strands.
> 
> Rappelling on one is smoother and more comfortable, but both my LockJack and SpiderJack give me that on static tree line.
> 
> I'm using a dynamic 3/4 in. lowering line @ 19,000 # test. The stretch (_as determined by the length_) eases shock loading by clumsy rope men. A good rope man is better than a good rope.


Better check that 19000lb test again. I believe that is the dynamic max not the work load which is in fact the upper safety limit for the rope. The 19000lbs is the load to failure (breaking strength) at a test facility. That would be nowhere even close in the field especially if you where to use any crossing hitches or knots. A timber hitch is one of the most used and the rope passes through it's self in a cutting fashion drastically reducing load limit. Remember the figures given by manufacturers were deduced in ideal conditions with like new ropes. You will stretch and load, drag through dirt and have the groundie dance all over it and reduce it's load bearing capacity even more. Do not be fooled by the numbers because when a 3/4" snaps at full breaking strength things can go very bad. Imagine a heel block tag line breaking under full load. The ground man would be cut in two were he in the bite. Property damage would be costly. Just food for thought I know you are not foolish.


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## the Aerialist (Jul 25, 2011)

*I understand the difference between tensile strength a WLL ...*

^ that would be *and* WLL ^

10% of tensile is a good WLL estimate, but I like looking at the bigger number. Still nearly a ton with my big rope. Well under your 300x60 (_and I know that is not the math, the actual number if far higher_).

Come on tell us, I know you've worked out ~ and nobody could guess it.


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## DangerTree (Jul 25, 2011)

Aerial Arborist said:


> ^ that would be *and* WLL ^
> 
> 10% of tensile is a good WLL estimate, but I like looking at the bigger number. Still nearly a ton with my big rope. Well under your 300x60 (_and I know that is not the math, the actual number if far higher_).
> 
> Come on tell us, I know you've worked out ~ and nobody could guess it.


How right you are you would need some big assed gear to catch that top. Also you are right rebound can be helpful also dangerous should it snap. Wire rope is mostly used for dragging because the friction of the ground is less damaging to it.
And lastly the answer to the question is the fact that the loads that we subject our equipment to are vague estimates at best. So it behooves one too drastically give headroom with respect to safe working loads. Few of us are engineers and fewer will pull out the slide rule to do the math while rigging a top or heavy branch. Are you man enough to test your 3/4" rope behind a 5 ton to breaking point? that would be cool. I did consider doing a video of a setup with a crash test dummy placed in the bite of a 7/8" bull rope. I would yank it tight with my bucket truck with a heel block in the middle. Then start the camera with high speed film and whack the heel block tie back with a machete. I think that would be awesome!


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## Cedar Ed (Jul 25, 2011)

jsirbasku doesn't seem to be around but rope seems to be my personal preference,so sure there s some great rock rope for tree work and some tree rope would work for rock climbing and visey versay but it dont make sence to say "oh i'll buy a rock climbing rope and do some tree work to save a buck!" Just be safe and use the ropes for their intended puposes.


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## DangerTree (Jul 25, 2011)

Cedar Ed said:


> jsirbasku doesn't seem to be around but rope seems to be my personal preference,so sure there s some great rock rope for tree work and some tree rope would work for rock climbing and visey versay but it dont make sence to say "oh i'll buy a rock climbing rope and do some tree work to save a buck!" Just be safe and use the ropes for their intended puposes.


 
I dont think the price of rock rope is any different than tree rope of a similar quality. Many are made by the same companies anyway. I used static ropes while aid climbing in Squamish and in Yosmite. Those ropes are no different than tree ropes. I bought some green 1/2" rope from Baileys and it was just crap. It is barely suitable for an anchor rope for my 17' ski boat. I used it 10 times maybe and it was frayed and useless.


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## the Aerialist (Jul 25, 2011)

*I'm man enough if Jeff is willing ...*



DangerTree said:


> ... Are you man enough to test your 3/4" rope behind a 5 ton to breaking point? that would be cool. I did consider doing a video of a setup with a crash test dummy ... I think that would be awesome!



As it happens I have a 60' section of that 19,500 rope, made when a now fired ground guy cut it with his saw. All we need is a 300# crash test dummy... Jeff?


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## DangerTree (Jul 27, 2011)

*rope rape.*



Aerial Arborist said:


> As it happens I have a 60' section of that 19,500 rope, made when a now fired ground guy cut it with his saw. All we need is a 300# crash test dummy... Jeff?


 
If there is one thing I simply can't stand it's rope rape. Don't stand on my ropes, get gas or oil or dog crap on my ropes, and for the love of all things good please remove the rope from the tree BEFORE you cut it up! Also I do not tolerate seeing a 1/2" rope secured to a moving vehicle unless it's tied around the guy that cut my rope. And lastly I don't believe in the ( if you don't know knots tie lots ) school of rope raping.


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## the Aerialist (Jul 28, 2011)

*Rope rape x 2 ...*



DangerTree said:


> If there is one thing I simply can't stand it's rope rape. Don't stand on my ropes, get gas or oil or dog crap on my ropes, and for the love of all things good please remove the rope from the tree BEFORE you cut it up!... Also I do not tolerate seeing a 1/2" rope secured to a moving vehicle unless it's tied around the guy that cut my rope...



How about some crew member driving over your climbing line? Man that really tic's me off! Or tying a knot that can't be untied once it's loaded? Or how about being loaded when you tie a knot? I had that problem from a ground guy when I contract climbed for another tree service. It's one reason I don't do that anymore.


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## CJ-8_Jim (Jul 31, 2011)

DangerTree said:


> The dynamic is the amount of force you think that 300lb top will exert on the crotch after falling 60'. Anybody know how much that would be? Anybody.



300 lbs falling 60' is 18,000 ft. lbs. -- but I think you already knew that.


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## DangerTree (Aug 29, 2011)

CJ-8_Jim said:


> 300 lbs falling 60' is 18,000 ft. lbs. -- but I think you already knew that.


 
Well if nothing else it was a damn good estimate don't you think?


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