# Building roads in wetlands



## Jim Timber

Do any of you have experience putting long term roads through type 7 wooded swamps?

I need a 250-300' road put in across my swamp to access the high ground.


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## slowp

More info? We need more info. What is a type 7 wetland?

Around here, you don't put roads in wetlands, and logging is restricted. A friend is getting a damp area logged now, because it has to be done during dryness. 

I'd suggest you research forest practice laws and zoning for YOUR area before asking questions on the internet. Or pay to consult with somebody who knows.


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## 2dogs

It sounds like are asking for the punchline of a joke. In Cali you could never put a road through a swamp. Ever.


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## madhatte

One word: "mitigation".

It means "expensive". I'd be looking for another way to get those logs out.


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## Jim Timber

Type 7 is a wooded swamp.

I appreciate all the concerns, but I've already done the groundwork on this one. I have the county wetland coordinator on-board with my plans, and I just need to pay the $50 for the permit and I can start filling. In MN, there's a silvicultural exemption to all but calcareous fens and I think one other type. The only mitigation I need to worry about is when it's dual purposed for my house's driveway in the future. At that point, since I've been straight forward about the intent of the road, I'll have to pay the $2500 wetland restoration fund credits - they're letting me get by without paying up front, so long as it's in the plan and this isn't some sly move to try and bypass paying it by claiming it's just a logging road.

This is a technical question, seeking people who've done it - experience to go off of when giving advice.

I'm land locked on the other sides of my swamp, so I'd have to get a cartway easement through at least 1/4 mile of neighboring property. That's something I vehemently oppose on principle (I detest imminent domain actions of government against the individual for another's benefit). 

Going through the swamp shouldn't be too bad. It's wet to the surface, but not submerged most of the year (peat muck about 18" deep before you stop sinking on foot). There's a natural spring feeding it, and it handles run-off for about 160 acres, so culverts will be needed. I'm also thinking it'll need fabric to keep the granite or whatever we use for fill from settling out and sinking. I've put sticks and small saplings down for a temporary corduroy road, and that's handled 1000# atv traffic pretty well even when the area was flooded from abnormally heavy rains this spring.


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## 2dogs

Say hi to Shrek for me.


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## H 2 H

In my area (Stanwood Washington) a land manager of a Church property went ahead and did a project in a wetland without county consent or a permit and got busted big time he thought he could buy another piece of property and say that was the wetland; it's on the same road (300th street just down the road). Right now it's going thru the court system we will see were it end's up


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## Oldtimer

No problem.

Use old rusted oil barrels as fill, they are always free.
Next, put a layer of beer bottles over it. It might take a while to drink your way across, but I have faith in you.
Lastly, haul in some debris from an asbestos removal site. It's fireproof, and you don't have to worry about the roadway burning up. Packs in real nice too.

For more helpful tips, PM me any time.

Good luck.


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## Oldtimer

All kidding aside, you want 6" riprap by the metric ton. Then a layer of 1" stone, then good 3/4" and under crushed bank run. If you feel you need 3 culverts that are 12", then put in 6 that are 24". Trust me on that.


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## madhatte

Jim Timber said:


> calcareous fens



You're gonna want to have a doctor look at that...



Oldtimer said:


> If you feel you need 3 culverts that are 12", then put in 6 that are 24".



That is some solid advice. I've been whining for YEARS to get some collapsed culverts replaced. Nobody wants to spend the money. It's way better to do it earlier than later.


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## Gologit

Jim Timber said:


> Type 7 is a wooded swamp.
> 
> I appreciate all the concerns, but I've already done the groundwork on this one. I have the county wetland coordinator on-board with my plans, and I just need to pay the $50 for the permit and I can start filling. In MN, there's a silvicultural exemption to all but calcareous fens and I think one other type. The only mitigation I need to worry about is when it's dual purposed for my house's driveway in the future. At that point, since I've been straight forward about the intent of the road, I'll have to pay the $2500 wetland restoration fund credits - they're letting me get by without paying up front, so long as it's in the plan and this isn't some sly move to try and bypass paying it by claiming it's just a logging road.
> 
> This is a technical question, seeking people who've done it - experience to go off of when giving advice.
> 
> I'm land locked on the other sides of my swamp, so I'd have to get a cartway easement through at least 1/4 mile of neighboring property. That's something I vehemently oppose on principle (I detest imminent domain actions of government against the individual for another's benefit).
> 
> Going through the swamp shouldn't be too bad. It's wet to the surface, but not submerged most of the year (peat muck about 18" deep before you stop sinking on foot). There's a natural spring feeding it, and it handles run-off for about 160 acres, so culverts will be needed. I'm also thinking it'll need fabric to keep the granite or whatever we use for fill from settling out and sinking. I've put sticks and small saplings down for a temporary corduroy road, and that's handled 1000# atv traffic pretty well even when the area was flooded from abnormally heavy rains this spring.



Take a look again at Oldtimer's post about how to build a decent road. Bucks, big bucks. And you want to put down fabric? Good idea...but more bucks.

Still think the timber will pay for all of that...or even very much of it at all?

Welcome to the wonderful world of being a timber land owner.


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## slowp

Geotextiles are spendy. As is road building through wet areas. I have no experience with peat bogs. I do with mud. Mud takes drainage first. Pipes, ditches etc. Got to keep it drained. Then rock. Big rock--what we call pit run for a base. Then, depending on how whiney your truckers are, you may need finer stuff on top of that.

Build it so it drains. Keep on any high ground you have. That saves a lot of the headache. Or plan to log it in the winter. Did you think about doing that? Much of your neighbor to the east, Wisconsin, can only be logged during the freezing temps. Winter logging is also easier on the ground. 

Now, you'll also have to figure in where your log decks are going to go. Our road location out west is planned for drainage, grade, and small landings. You live where it takes 40 acres to turn a truck around and they will want room to deck on both sides of the road. 

It aint easy, and I've learned by making mistakes. My timber land owner friend sunk most of their family's earnings from the logging into a road. But, it is a road that can be used again in the future. They plan to grow timber for the future too.


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## dingeryote

Jim,

We have the same sort of issues with access to fields through Peat swamps and black muck here. Bottomless black goo that eats rip-rap, and no place for things to drain to, and limitations on draining fast enough to be effective. It's hard to move water uphill, and when everything is saturated the only answer is to float. 

Best thing we have found IS the Geo-textile for permanent roads, and oddly enough, there IS a cost share program through the NRCS, for heavy use ag roads, and dangit all...it's considered errosion abatement and is the environmentally responsible thing to do. Help with engineering the road is available with a simple stop in to the NRCS office most times. Who knows, you might be able to get some help with cost and avoid some sort of wetlands environut regulation wierdness in the process.

Get ahold of Price and co. Price and Company | Erosion Control, Site Civil Improvement, Surface Water Quality in Michigan
Just bought another three rolls of Terratex for a new road.

Cost was $495 for 12.5'x 360' 

Have had amazing results with the Terratex and crushed concrete or 23A, in bottomless muck that would swallow everything else as soon as heavy trucks and equipment started running. We ran a couple of D8's an excavator and hundreds of loaded trucks over our worst spot, and here it is 7 years later without any lowering of the grade anywhere. With the cost of constantly adding gravel and Maint. using other methods, the Terratex pays for itself real quick. 

good luck to ya!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Jim Timber

First off, thank you guys for the solid advice!

I've wondered about how many culverts and how big to make them. The township put a 16" in when they paved the road about 10 years ago (we'd been dirt since the `40's when it was developed), and that freezes up every winter and the water flows under it which causes it to buck (there's now a buckle in the road above the culvert). It used to be a 24", and that kept the water table lower. I talked to the wetlands guy about that and he confirmed that the water level had been lower in the past based on all the black ash, and how they're now dying. I have to convince the township to fix it (I'm the only affected land owner who's complaining), and they're not interested in spending the money. They had several roads washed out with our flooding this spring (5" in one storm, 7" in another about 5 weeks apart while the ground was still saturated from winter), so they don't really have any money to deal with it either.

So I've been thinking I need something deep to keep from having the dry side freeze and the wet side hydraulicly wipe me out from the other.


When you guys talk about if the timber is worth it or not - that's a moot point. I'm building my driveway on my dream property. I want to spend the rest of my life in those woods, and I'd like to not spend it adding fill to the entrance road.

From the sounds of it, I should have someone contracted to come in and scoop out my muck so I can lay the fabric, then I'd be able to work the rest of the process with a compact tractor/loader and a rental compactor. Sure, it'll take a bunch of time, but right now I can only get in there with an atv anyway. I have lots of time, not lots of money.

I have 400' of roadside frontage adjacent to where the new road will go which is under a power line easement, so I can stage materials there on my own land. I could also probably sell the peat/muck for a decent chunk of change for garden dirt.


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## dingeryote

Jim Timber said:


> First off, thank you guys for the solid advice!
> 
> I've wondered about how many culverts and how big to make them. The township put a 16" in when they paved the road about 10 years ago (we'd been dirt since the `40's when it was developed), and that freezes up every winter and the water flows under it which causes it to buck (there's now a buckle in the road above the culvert). It used to be a 24", and that kept the water table lower. I talked to the wetlands guy about that and he confirmed that the water level had been lower in the past based on all the black ash, and how they're now dying. I have to convince the township to fix it (I'm the only affected land owner who's complaining), and they're not interested in spending the money. They had several roads washed out with our flooding this spring (5" in one storm, 7" in another about 5 weeks apart while the ground was still saturated from winter), so they don't really have any money to deal with it either.
> 
> So I've been thinking I need something deep to keep from having the dry side freeze and the wet side hydraulicly wipe me out from the other.
> 
> 
> When you guys talk about if the timber is worth it or not - that's a moot point. I'm building my driveway on my dream property. I want to spend the rest of my life in those woods, and I'd like to not spend it adding fill to the entrance road.
> 
> From the sounds of it, I should have someone contracted to come in and scoop out my muck so I can lay the fabric, then I'd be able to work the rest of the process with a compact tractor/loader and a rental compactor. Sure, it'll take a bunch of time, but right now I can only get in there with an atv anyway. I have lots of time, not lots of money.
> 
> I have 400' of roadside frontage adjacent to where the new road will go which is under a power line easement, so I can stage materials there on my own land. I could also probably sell the peat/muck for a decent chunk of change for garden dirt.



Jim,

You're doing pretty much what we had to do. For a quick and dirty road, nobody cares if the sub grade gets swallowed 3 years later, but for a permanent road, that crap wont wash.

We ended up going with 3" sock tile every 25', to equalize hydraulic pressure along the length during winter, and especially the partial thaws when the water gets to flowing and the Muck is still frozen.
Terratex went down right on the muck and the elevation to grade was added on top with 6" Sock tile every 50' to handle the spring thaw runoff.
The big thing was creating a path of least resistence for everything to equalize under the fabric.

Good luck!
Dingeryote


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## Jim Timber

I'll check with the agencies in the next couple weeks and see what they come back with. I still need to meet with the township roads guy to verify their intentions on what they want me to do before presenting to the TEP panel next month to get their blessing and begin work.

Since I'm also building two ponds upland, they might "no-loss" me in the end anyway. The wetland guy and I get along very well and he sees my vision as more benefit than harm, but he's still got laws to be accountable to so I have to jump hoops.


What's a going rate for rip-rap? We're about 10 miles from a couple yards, I haven't contacted them about materials yet and would like to know if someone's out of whack or I'm getting a decent quote.

Rough guestimate - I'm looking at a full dump truck load, maybe more right?


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## Gologit

Jim Timber said:


> I'll check with the agencies in the next couple weeks and see what they come back with. I still need to meet with the township roads guy to verify their intentions on what they want me to do before presenting to the TEP panel next month to get their blessing and begin work.
> 
> Since I'm also building two ponds upland, they might "no-loss" me in the end anyway. The wetland guy and I get along very well and he sees my vision as more benefit than harm, but he's still got laws to be accountable to so I have to jump hoops.
> 
> 
> What's a going rate for rip-rap? We're about 10 miles from a couple yards, I haven't contacted them about materials yet and would like to know if someone's out of whack or I'm getting a decent quote.
> 
> Rough guestimate - I'm looking at a full dump truck load, maybe more right?



LOTS more.


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## paccity

you will be suprized how fast the rock will sink. one truck load really is not that much.


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## northmanlogging

the rocks around here are pretty cheap its the trucking that gets ya, $100-150 an hour, maybe more depending on how far ya are from the quarry and that's just for the truck, rocks costs extra... With all these questions ya got on managing your land, makes me wonder if ya got yourself a real money pit, surrounded by swamp, tiny little trees, no road, no house. Not trying to be a jerk but you sure about this? Oh yeah and culverts are spend'y. Round here if there's any kind of "wet" ground just turn around and run, so best of luck


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## Humptulips

I heard you say you were thinking of digging out the muck. How deep is that stuff? Could be a big mistake.
In my experience, don't disturb the ground, throw down every bit of puncheon you can get a hold of, lay fabric and overlay with a layer of pit run shot rock if you can get it, bigger the better. Stay away from round river rock if you can. Walk it in and finer topping over that.
Cut a right a way wide enough so it gets some sun. Do this all when the ground is as dry as it ever is. Then stay off it for a year. Good ditches and plenty culverts as has been mentioned.


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## Jim Timber

I have 3 acres of swamp, and 81 acres of high ground - the road I want to enter from is on the opposite side of my swamp from the high ground. I'm blocked in on all 4 sides by contiguous hardwood forest that's at least 1/4 mile from adjacent roads. The corner of my property at the swamp is where a two lane road terminates: it's the shortest distance between high ground and public roadways.

You guys view this as a business, and I view it as landscaping. 70% of my oak are 15" plus DBH, ruler straight, and clear two or three sticks up. I don't care that the locals don't want to pay me anything for them, as I'm going to use the ones I cut to build my mc mansion.

I'm starting with a blank slate, on a really cool property with interesting land features, across from my in-laws cabin (where we currently stay), which is on the lake. The in-laws are in their mid-late 70's and will be gone in the next ten years or so, but I still don't want to live on a 50' wide lot in a 1300sf single level house with neighbors 20' off either flank. We'll keep the cabin, but my house will remain deep in the woods.

Am I sure I want to do this? As sure as I want to keep breathing. I have a vision, and I'm going to see it through.


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## Wazzu

I wouldn't have posted this question on the internet but since you did. I would be worried about the EPA not the local permitting officials. Another Idaho landowner gets into wetlands wrangle with EPA - Spokesman.com - Dec. 5, 2011


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## Jim Timber

It's 2500 sq ft of impact. The EPA isn't likely to come after me.

As for removing the muck, I'll need to get the debris off the surface, stumps, etc to get it flat enough to put the fabric down. The path is littered with 20" black ash and 15" white birch that need to go. Work will commence when the ground is hard - I have some money coming and should have the red tape cleared when I'm able to fund the project.


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## Oldtimer

You are going to spit up some beer (or coffee) here...but:


Consider a bridge. In the long run it might actually be cheaper and faster.

Concrete abuttments in strategic spots, and 20' x 12" x 2" PT lumber laminated together with 20d nails to form 12x12x20 beams. Our snowmobile club has built a couple dozen of these, some as long as 50'.
We put a Cat 320 excavator over one twice. It never flinched. We build them to Forest Service Specs out in the WMNF. Actually, out in the NF, we use steel beams, so log trucks can cross.

Just tossing out alternatives.
Here is a link to pictures of one club bridge. It's my club's pic page.
http://www.ossipeevalleysnowmobileclub.com/2011/11/06/bridge-is-almost-done/


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## northmanlogging

OK boss, hope you gots lots of money coming, road building is never cheap, best of luck to ya. and if no one local wants to buy your logs then chances are having them trucked somewhere that will is going to cost allot of money, unless you plan on milling them yourself, in which case more power to you... just watch out for those building codes.


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## Jim Timber

The forester said he'd be interested in 5 to 10 years depending how well they grow (and was under the impression I was only selling the aspen - which is worth $15/cord right now), the other jackass I talked to was interested now but wanted to pay me pawn-shop rates on the wood. I'll be milling myself, and selling the cull wood/limbs as firewood.

Once again, this is not a business venture to get rich or even make a living off of. I'm cutting trees to make room for other things I want to do on the land, and to use in the construction of my house. Selling the wood is simply a means of recouping some of the expenses and not wasting the assets that I'm removing. How many times do I have to repeat this before you get it?

I've thought about spanning the swamp with concrete - without footings, that'd only be about 80K without rebar. lol


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## rwoods

Jim Timber said:


> The forester said he'd be interested in 5 to 10 years depending how well they grow (and was under the impression I was only selling the aspen - which is worth $15/cord right now), the other jackass I talked to was interested now but wanted to pay me pawn-shop rates on the wood. I'll be milling myself, and selling the cull wood/limbs as firewood.
> 
> Once again, this is not a business venture to get rich or even make a living off of. I'm cutting trees to make room for other things I want to do on the land, and to use in the construction of my house. Selling the wood is simply a means of recouping some of the expenses and not wasting the assets that I'm removing. *How many times do I have to repeat this before you get it?*
> I've thought about spanning the swamp with concrete - without footings, that'd only be about 80K without rebar. lol



Calm down a notch or two already. There are plenty of people on here who do get it and are trying to help you. Many have been there and done that. And many have had similar dreams and aspirations only to find there are lots of obstables to overcome. That is what you need to understand.


Just how much does concrete cost a yard delivered in your area? This figure would be too high in our area even though concrete has doubled in the last few years to about $120 a yard. A foot thick twelve foot wide road 300 feet long is only 133 1/3 cubic yards. From your self descriptions there should be no reason why you couldn't furnish the labor and all form boards. I'm not saying concrete is a good idea as I have no idea what is required to survive your climate. Ron


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## Frank Boyer

You should consult with a geo and engineer. You need to know what works in your area. At least talk to an excavating contractor who has worked in your area. Shoot your grades and get a topo and drainage plan. The post about 6 ea 24" culverts instead of smaller stuff may be correct, or possibly not enough. It is better to spend a little now and get it right instead of spending a lot 2-3 times trying to fix it.


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## Jim Timber

Elevation change across the swamp is under 2'. The current trail is twisty so you can't see from one end to the other (intentionally), and ideally the driveway will be curved a bit as well for the same reason. Lasering elevation would be a multi-stage proposition going around some tight turns.

I've been holding off on clearing the lane until I get the formal OK for the project. The wood I have laid down is easily removed and the land would revert back to natural looking in a few years if they decided to make me choose a different route.

My *comment* wasn't directed at those who've been giving great advice, it's aimed at those who seem to think their motives are the same as mine and I should abandon my dream house. I value my swamp. I joke that it's my moat. I also appreciate it's wildlife attributes and actually want to dredge it out and make it more standing water as a scenic benefit along the side of my driveway (in addition to more beneficial to wildlife). If you want to choke on some money spending opportunities - think of how much removal of muck to a depth of 6' from over half an acre and trucking to the opposite side of the property for my berm is going to cost.  It's why I choose to do the work myself. I don't have the deep pockets to contract it, but I have the will power to make it happen none the less.


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## northmanlogging

Well I'll give ya credit for just plain stubborn determination... Good luck on yer project it might take years but what the Hel right? $15. a cord for aspen! think a guy could just sell it as fire wood? (not sure of the heating ability of aspen) be an ton of work but ya could possibly get more out of it...


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## Humptulips

Jim Timber said:


> It's 2500 sq ft of impact. The EPA isn't likely to come after me.
> 
> As for removing the muck, I'll need to get the debris off the surface, stumps, etc to get it flat enough to put the fabric down. The path is littered with 20" black ash and 15" white birch that need to go. Work will commence when the ground is hard - I have some money coming and should have the red tape cleared when I'm able to fund the project.



No, this is a mistake. I've built and seen quite a bit of road built on very wet ground. Leave all the debis where it lays, saw stumps off low, pile brush as much as possible on road bed.
You can walk this down a bit if it is solid enough or just put fabric right over it and then rock over the top.
All this puncheon creates a mat that holds the road up. Disturb the ground and the rock will likely just keep sinking.

What do you have to build grade?
With an excavator you can set brush on the road bed and flatten it down by tamping with the bucket. A common practise here. If all you have is a spread cat, stay on the gravel. You can flatten out the brush by hand with a saw before you roll out the paper.


And if you say "work will commense when the ground is hard" you don't really have a swamp do you. Still everything I sad applies to wet or soft ground.


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## madhatte

So here's a thing to look at. This is a pair of panoramic images I took today of a recently-repaired culvert crossing. You may need to install a plugin to view these images; I apologize if that's a hassle. 

Here's the uphill side, looking down...

and here's the downhill side, looking up. 

What you're looking at is a road crossing at a critical pour point about midway down a series of cascading wetlands. The old, failed culvert was 36" in diameter. The new ones are 12" in diameter. If you do the math, that's about 6 SF of area vs about 28 SF. 20 SF was insufficient. 6 will most certainly fail. An "engineer" made the decisions. The equipment operators just installed the pipes and moved the material -- they are not to blame. They did a very good job. The cost for the larger pipe would have been negligibly larger. The engineer failed to take into account the volume of water drained through the point in question, and didn't bother to ask anybody who knew anything about it. 

My point: Oldtimer is 100% correct -- more culvert is cheap insurance against more failure. I'll take "after" pictures later once this road is destroyed again and we spend triple the money we've already spent to repair it a second time.

EDIT: fixed the math


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## paccity

madhatte said:


> So here's a thing to look at. This is a pair of panoramic images I took today of a recently-repaired culvert crossing. You may need to install a plugin to view these images; I apologize if that's a hassle.
> 
> Here's the uphill side, looking down...
> 
> and here's the downhill side, looking up.
> 
> What you're looking at is a road crossing at a critical pour point about midway down a series of cascading wetlands. The old, failed culvert was 36" in diameter. The new ones are 12" in diameter. If you do the math, that's about 6 SF of area vs about 20 SF. 20 SF was insufficient. 6 will most certainly fail. An "engineer" made the decisions. The equipment operators just installed the pipes and moved the material -- they are not to blame. They did a very good job. The cost for the larger pipe would have been negligibly larger. The engineer failed to take into account the volume of water drained through the point in question, and didn't bother to ask anybody who knew anything about it.
> 
> My point: Oldtimer is 100% correct -- more culvert is cheap insurance against more failure. I'll take "after" pictures later once this road is destroyed again and we spend triple the money we've already spent to repair it a second time.



cool photos.:cool2:


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## madhatte

Thank yez! Just another too for documenting things. I have a feeling I'll be using this one more.


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## Jim Timber

Most of it freezes solid, as there's only a small seepage stream that fills the lower puddle portion year round. So when it gets hard, it's going to be dirty ice.

I've been piling 6' long logs/sticks across it to make it a serviceable path - without that stuff, my atv (2010 arctic cat mud pro with 14" ground clearance and mud tires) wouldn't make it without the winch. It'd just sink to the skid plate and spin the tires in the holes. If you don't follow the beaten trail, you can step on enough dead OM to almost keep from sinking to your knees, but that's a hit and miss proposition. I don't know how deep the muck goes, and it's entirely possible it dries out after passing through a bed of clay. The soil in the area is heavily biased to sand, but there's enough loam and clay to hold water in the depression my road will cross.

I must've screwed something up when I was calculating the volume of the concrete - maybe I didn't divide the cubic footage into yards right (I was sleepy). Doing concrete appeals a lot to me, but I'm concerned about it holding the weight of a loaded semi with no foundation. I'm not an engineer, and that's a lot of growing/shrinking concrete to account for with temperature swings and moisture issues.


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## Jim Timber

madhatte said:


> My point: Oldtimer is 100% correct -- more culvert is cheap insurance against more failure. I'll take "after" pictures later once this road is destroyed again and we spend triple the money we've already spent to repair it a second time.



Absolutely! This is a big fear of mine, and a just one. I'll have to get on the wifes FB account and find the video from this spring when my swamp overflowed and spilled over the roadway. Let's just say, I never want to have my driveway wash out - and that's a big part of my reaching out here looking for help.

I also don't want to have adding fill be an annual thing like cleaning the gutters. lol


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## StihlKiwi

Humptulips said:


> No, this is a mistake. I've built and seen quite a bit of road built on very wet ground. Leave all the debis where it lays, saw stumps off low, pile brush as much as possible on road bed.
> You can walk this down a bit if it is solid enough or just put fabric right over it and then rock over the top.
> All this puncheon creates a mat that holds the road up. Disturb the ground and the rock will likely just keep sinking.
> 
> What do you have to build grade?
> With an excavator you can set brush on the road bed and flatten it down by tamping with the bucket. A common practise here. If all you have is a spread cat, stay on the gravel. You can flatten out the brush by hand with a saw before you roll out the paper.
> .



Building a road on a base of organic material works alright for temporary forest roads, but I can't see it being that great for a driveway


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## Jim Timber

northmanlogging said:


> Well I'll give ya credit for just plain stubborn determination... Good luck on yer project it might take years but what the Hel right? $15. a cord for aspen! think a guy could just sell it as fire wood? (not sure of the heating ability of aspen) be an ton of work but ya could possibly get more out of it...



I built my shop almost completely by myself 5 years ago. 24x35' with 11' ceiling - only contracted the slab. Had some friends and family help lift the walls and trusses, and did everything else myself. 2x6 on 16" walls, R29 insulation on the walls, 5/8" sheet rock on the whole interior, gas furnace, 27Kbtu AC, 200A electrical service with 18 circuits, designed built and erected a 20x24' 2T bridge crane myself without a forklift or any motorized equipment - I can build a road. 

The aspen simply lacks a market right now. Our closest paper mill burned down a couple months back, and they're not rebuilding it. I've got hundreds of 14" trees, but there's no one buying the stuff these days. It's an ok firewood, and I plan to sell it as such, as it punks out pretty quickly once cut - but it's very light and easy to move around, so it has that going for it. I'll add it to the basswood I can't sell the amish, and mix it with oak for mixed hardwood loads. I won't get the same money as all oak will, but I'll get more than $15 a cord! The other plus side with it other than the weight, is that the bark doesn't hold much dirt, and it's soft enough it doesn't dull chains.


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## Humptulips

StihlKiwi said:


> Building a road on a base of organic material works alright for temporary forest roads, but I can't see it being that great for a driveway



Better then watching load upon load of rock disappear into the mud. Seen that done.
In truth the puncheon when covered and in a wet enviroment will outlast everyone alive today.


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## Oldtimer

Hump is 110% right. Wood does not rot under water...I'd courdoy it with 2"-4" pole wood first myself.....if the DEPA would allow it..


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## Yooperforeman

Oldtimer said:


> Hump is 110% right. Wood does not rot under water...I'd courdoy it with 2"-4" pole wood first myself.....if the DEPA would allow it..



Yep, we're using skidding roads that are courderoyed with cedar poles that my Grandpa made in the 1940's.


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## StihlKiwi

Oldtimer said:


> Hump is 110% right. Wood does not rot under water...I'd courdoy it with 2"-4" pole wood first myself.....if the DEPA would allow it..



If its completely submerged and in anaerobic conditions then no it wont. If it dries out or the base becomes exposed it could be a whole different story though, and that could get real messy to fix. My point is that if the OP wants to run a bunch of trucks across this road and then use it as his only access to his house there's better ways to build a road base


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## LoggingEngineer

*Puncheon Road*

Okay, as far as I've seen the only real good advice you've gotten is from Humptulips. I build an average of 5 miles of this type of road every summer. Our wetland classifications are different, and different ones require different mitigation, it looks like you have that taken care of. 

As for the construction you are way off base. I think you said you have 250 feet to cross, so we have 2.5 stations of road. 

Don't stump the R/W, the stumps are holding your surface together, and will support the next layer you put down. Take all of the R/W wood and brush that you cut, and lay the logs perpendiscular to the road, and fill in with tops and brush where you can. This is 'puncheon', walk all of this in with an excavator, and pull other stumps from outside the R/W and shove them in the wet spots upside down so you will be filling on the spread out roots. Use fabric next, if you like wasting money; the puncheon works better than fabric when you use enough of it. Now you need to rock it with pit run rock. Put it down in atleast a couple of lifts, walk it in with a tracked machine, top it with some nice crushed if you want since it is a driveway. All the roads I build are permanent forest roads. With enough rock you can grade them as they tend to settle over time, and you won't be cutting into the puncheon. I regularly use 100-120 cy/sta of pit run on these roads. So you are looking at a minimum of 30ish loads over puncheon. If you dump the rock in by itself, even true rip rap, you will use far more rock as it sinks, the puncheon spreads the load of the fill and vehicles out over more surface area.

You will have to run solo trucks for the first lift, and they will have to back in and dump at the cat. If you get a decent first lift on, you may be able to run truck and trailer in for the second lift, and have them spread their way in, dropping your trucking cost a bit. Compact every lift with a virbratory roller to minimize the amount of rock you need.

As for pipes, there are many variables. If you have actual streams, there are some engineering calculations you can do to determine pipe size based on a bunch of variables. Or make an educated guess based on experience like we do in most cases. If you just have standing water, you only need to provide connectivity of the wetland from one side of your road fill to the other so your new 'dike' doesn't dam up the water on the high side. 18" pipes in a few places will work for that. Without seeing anything, I can't tell you how many you need. For a shallow filled road, with a 12' wide running surface I use 24' pipes, if the fill gets deeper, or the pipes are on a skew or in a curve, we get into 30'+ pipe lengths. Double walled, smooth bore plastic pipe is better than the metal pipes and the single wall plastic for passing debris, but you probably won't have that issue. In my budgeting, I cost the average 18" crossdrain pipe installed at $1000. Expect to pay around $500 just for an 18"x24' pipe. The other $500 in my budget allows me machine time for install and rock loading, truck time for rock haul, and a percentage for the development of my rock source....and its a bit high, so I can have soem extra money at the end of the year for additional projects.

Whatever you do.....DO NOT excavate the 'goo' and stumps on top. You never want to build a road in a trough, especially in a wetland. As soon as you excavate the goo, with is potentially endless for all intents and purposes, you are working in the lowest part of the wetland....where does water go? The low point...bad juju. I'll have to find you some good pictures of this type of construction.


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## Metals406

I built a driveway in 2008 almost exactly the same as what you're doing.

No fabric was used. . . Big, big, (did I say big?) boulders as a base, then 5" or better river rock, then decomposed granite was used.

There was only one culvert 36" at the little creek that ran down the center.

Bedding the culvert properly is important. Also, excavating a pool on the entrance and exit of the culvert, and ripwrapping correctly.

The beauty of using rock as base, is the water flows through it in the event of high water, and there are no fines to wash out.

Also, ditto to not disturbing the base by removing anything.

I can dig out some pictures if you'd like. . . I have them on a cd somewhere.

Also, this kind of thing really isn't rocket surgery.


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## Metals406

A couple things to add. . .

The rock was all 'mined' from the property, which saved a buttload of money.

If you don't have rock on the place -- you might be selling a kidney to truck it in.

Another option for unstable soils, is helical piles/piers.

I've personally spec'd them out on a few jobs, and was aware of their usefulness before many others in the valley (thanks interwebs). They have been used for foundations since Great-Grandpappy was in diapers.

You might consider a girder and beam bridge across the swamp. Any local helical pier contractor can soil sample the area and calculate screw pitch and diameter for needed load. Price out some steel beams for the span between piles and bearing. Deck the darn thing in wood you mill right off the place.

Might end up being cheaper than all the rock you'll need. . . Agencies are also more prone to helical pile install in 'wetland' because of their low enviro-impact.


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## H 2 H

H 2 H said:


> In my area (Stanwood Washington) a land manager of a Church property went ahead and did a project in a wetland without county consent or a permit and got busted big time he thought he could buy another piece of property and say that was the wetland; it's on the same road (300th street just down the road). Right now it's going thru the court system we will see were it end's up



Update: The Church had a $5 G fine and had to replace the wetlands with a 2 acre piece of land

And now they have posted signs saying what is happening there which they didn't do the first time


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## apracticalman

jim you might research rail road flatcar for bridges.i believe their as long as 89'.three of them acouple of piers,a crane seems like it would be alot more fun than throwing rocks in a swamp


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## trlbl

Great question, wrong forum. Try heavyequipmentforum.com. I'm sure lots of guys on here have built roads. But I'm sure lots of road builders have cut down trees, doesn't make them tree experts. Road builders don't care what type or what size trees are in the way, just how wide the road and how long?


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## trlbl

Didn't mean to sound unfriendly and I'm sure everyone is trying to help, but your getting responses that are all over the board from all over the country. seems useless like 20 gallons of what if. The answer to your question is site specific and designed to your needs/budget.


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## Jim Timber

I'd love to see some pics of whatever you guys have done, if it's not too much trouble.


Status right now: waiting on a meeting with the township on Oct. 30th to see if they want to vacate or build the road which was technically abandoned in the late 60's. Neighbor wants it vacated, but I'm going to try to force them to build it for me and assess all of us (I don't like the other two people who would be impacted - they're mooches). Either way I win.


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## one.man.band

*permanent road*

consider the corduroy road option, as others have mentioned. or other options, which others have mentioned first. we have built roads over 
70 year old corduroy roads, where the excavated cedar logs we excavated looking just like fresh cut-down timber. the logs are laid down side by side and do a good job of stabilizing the soil. 
if it were me, i would still strip the 18 inches of peat before using this method. this is a good way to bridge over unstable soil.

that said,
this will undoubtably be the most costly option of road building. but if you want permanent, and if you have the bucks. to build a permanent no bull#### road over unstable soil:

-----------------------

now the fun begins.

probably the hardest part is to get a track hoe, dozer, and dump trucks to get in there to do the job without getting stuck. a working platform, a pad, most likely will need to be built up to get the track hoe stable enough to dig and load trucks and to get the loaded trucks in and out. if this cannot be done, it's game over. i have seen CAT 345C track hoes stuck, CAT D8's dozers stuck, various makes of end dumps stuck (off road dumps) stuck.
to add to this, i have seen all three of these get stuck trying to pull just one of them out. those are highway building size machines. even experienced folks who have operated hoes for 25 years can not walk them out in all instances.

on road 10-wheel dumps get stuck very easily. dumping or loading them on unstable soil is dangerous.

during excavation, even the hardest soil that is dry, can turn into a 4 foot deep mudpit after a storm fills the hole.

if,

the soil under the peat is stable (could potentially hold a load), you could potentially build on that, only if it is not clay/silt. but, since it is under the water/table already, at minimum, it will need to be dried out first, before it can support a load. until the underlying (oversturated, waterlogged) soil is dried out, consider this soil to be unstable.

this step is difficult.

to dry it out, construct retention ponds, dig swales, ditches or lay pipe to move the water as far away from the road as possible. it could literally take months before things dry out. exactly how you will dry out an area which holds runoff for 160 acres with natural springs in itself is could most likely be an impossible task. overflow from the pond(s) will need to be diverted away as well.

but in case you are able to accomplish this,

you have have an 18 inch depth of peat muck. this is considered unsuitable material. by definition organic.
this will never hold any form of compressible load, even if dry.

this will need to be stripped off.

so,

250 x 12 x 1.5 feet = 4500 ft3 = 166 CY (dug and moved and/or trucked away)

next,

the road will have to be higher than existing water table (-) the 18" of peat you just removed.
so, you will need, to fill the future road with some kind of "stable" soil/stone/gravel. this is called embankment.
get the elevation of the road as high as money allows.

roll the embankment with a dirt roller in static mode, until you are well above the water table. also consider that the weight of the embankment will settle over time. do not use a plate tamper! the vibes will cause more problems than help. consider the water table height change at spring thaw and/or rainstorm conditions.

if the embankment is high (thick enough) enough, the following steps other than the test may not be necessary.

build up the embankment in layers, and find the thinnest embankment layer that can pass this test.
roll a filled dump truck over the embankment, watch for "pumping". if the tires of the loaded truck, look like they are riding on a pillow, the embankment is unstable. this can be addressed by undercutting the unstable soil. this unstable soil is dug out and replaced with stable soil. if digging deeper to find more stable soil does not work, (and it rarely will in a swamp)... an undercut combined with geo fabric will be necessary. if a layer of geo fabric combined with an undercut will not do it, then a layer or geo fabric, then geo grid with a deeper undercut is used. 

at the point where.... the added thicker layer of gravel becomes more costly than the fabric, use the fabric. also vice versa.

some geo-fabrics claim to be equivalent to one additional foot of gravel undercut.

another way to avoid this entirely, is to keep adding embankment lift layers, until this whole problem is solved. 

at this point, you are ready for the next step.

once the embankment lift can pass the truck test, you can begin compaction using vibration. do this in equal lifts if possible. if you have a source on your land for this, great, if not trucking can be expensive.

next,

some quick math:

i do not know, what material you will be using, or the height of embankment material you will be using.....

the following math could be used for embankment as well. any non-organic, stable when dry soil coild potentially be used.


for the 2' depth gravel you will need to place over the embankment material:

driveway length = 250 ft
guessing width = 12ft
depth (fill) = 2 ft

250 x 12 x 2 = 6000 ft3 (cubic feet) = 222.22 CY (fill needed)

weight of gravel approx. = 110 #/ft3 (this will vary, but it's a conservative side value that we use)

so,

6000 ft3 x 110#/ft3 = 660,000 pounds = 330 tons

so, 

330 tons divided by 22 tons (max. legal load on a 10-wheel dump in my state) = 15 loads

keep in mind, more than this amount will be nessessary. for potential undercuts, and the fact that the x-section of a road is a trapezoid shape, where the base is wider than the top surface, and also working platform. also much of this material will be wasted, lost sinking into the existing ground.

consider at least 2 feet of gravel minimum. if there are pipes under the road, take into consideration the recommended cover necessary over the pipe. this will vary with type of pipe used (corrogated steel, plastic, etc.) if not enough cover over the pipe is used, it will eventually collapse.

pipe sizing diameter, is based on runoff area, total volume, and existing slope. this is beyond the scope of my reply.
seek advice for this.
-------------------------------------

as others have said, here, be careful in a designated wetland. use approved methods of construction (erosion control) or hefty and i mean hefty fines can result. i could not be doing what you want to do where i live. even ponds require a permit here.

also, ponds can fill up over time and will need to be mucked out. consider that when digging the initial depth 
and use the clay/silt to line the bottom of pond.

good luck
-OMB


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## Jim Timber

I'm probably meeting with the TEP panel in November (first tuesday). Still haven't gotten in touch with the township (either of them), and am heavily leaning towards a traditional corduroy road with geotextile.

I want 20' of width, so we aren't having vehicles trying to pass on the shoulder in the swamp. 16' might be sufficient, but I'd rather have and not need than need and not have. Especially when the foundation work is the killer in this situation - there's no adding later.

I'm clearing several acres of trees for my projects, so getting the needed timbers for the substrate won't be any expense beyond time and chainsaw incidentals plus fuel for the atv. It also provides filler for the depth needed to return to grade after removing the muck. If I was comfortable using aspen, I could fill the entire void with wood and not even lose timber value - I'm not comfortable using it, so I'll stick with the oak and maple I remove from my home plot and shooting range. The ACoE guidelines state 2" minimum diameter logs - that's not a problem at all, and will help with my forest management objectives as well. I'll retain the good bigger wood for milling later on, and sell the tops for firewood.

Where this project differs from what most of you might be used to, is that I don't have any time deadlines, or profit margins to worry about. I have no intention of building anything up there for the next two years (aside from small utility type sheds), and I enjoy doing this stuff.

Once again, thanks for all the input and help.


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## forestryworks

slowp said:


> More info? We need more info. What is a type 7 wetland?



Type 7 Wetland: Minnesota DNR



Jim Timber said:


> *I also appreciate it's wildlife attributes and actually want to dredge it out and make it more standing water*



A good deal of irony in that statement. 
Dredging will change the entire hydrology of your wetland, and impact your road building plans. I'd either not dredge and build the road, or dredge first, and then build. Dredging will cause you some major headaches down the road, in my opinion.

Do you have any pictures of the place, Jim? Pictures of the process are always fun to see here as well.

Also, one of the best road building manuals I have come across in recent years can be found here: 
A Good Road Lies Easy on the Land Head to page 36 for the wetlands section.

Something else to think about, _over 50% of all wetlands in N. America are gone._ That's a lot of free flood control and wildlife habitat that has gone bye-bye. And people wonder why levees fail in big storms? Cause the wetlands are gone.

Good luck, Jim.


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## Jim Timber

I'll be adding two more sequestration ponds up stream from this spot. More wetlands than I'm removing, and better quality for more animals use. As the swamp sits - the coons rarely go through it because it lacks much open water. What water there is breeds mega frogs (I'm ok with that), but little else. The black ash are dying because the township raised the water level when they changed the culvert depth. I'm going to lose all my trees if I don't do something - dredging should help. The "puddle" area I'd like to expand houses fish (minnow size only), and the occasional muskrat. It's not big enough to protect any birds. The rest is just muck with debris rotting on top of it breeding mosquitoes by the billions.

Pics of my land are in a thread in the pics section. I don't have much of the swamp, or even all that many of my property for that matter - because it all pretty much just looks like a bunch of woods: which is what it is.


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## Jim Timber

Tonight was the township meeting about the platted road - 2-1 vote in favor.  I no longer have a public legal access dividing two of my parcels.

I emailed the county wetlands guy to see about getting on the docket for next weeks TEP meeting to get that ball rolling.


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## Jim Timber

They want me to come in from the south east, and will be investigating the best access point and how to deal with the neighboring land owner.

In all, I think that's the best option too. It's high ground, and much flatter from there to the house site.


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## northmanlogging

Sometimes the gubamint types are worth what we pay them, sometimes. Its also always good to have a second set of eyes take a look at a problem.


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## Jim Timber

There's a lot of down sides to where they want me to come in - less secluded entrance, interferes with my rifle range, neighbor who's land I'll cross wants a king's ransome for selling them, and could become hostile if eminent domain is used for easement, and it goes on...

One major problem with going through the swamp: will the beach road handle loaded logging trucks? None of us are confident it would.

They're open to possibly letting me build a driveway access through the swamp, but we all know that's either going to cost a fortune up front, or be an up-keep pain forever (or both). I'd rather not have extra two-lane roads through my woods, so it'll be a one road proposition.

My current trail will remain for atv and foot traffic.


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## Steve NW WI

Jim Timber said:


> There's a lot of down sides to where they want me to come in - less secluded entrance, interferes with my rifle range, neighbor who's land I'll cross wants a king's ransome for selling them, and could *become hostile if eminent domain is used for easement*, and it goes on...
> 
> One major problem with going through the swamp: will the beach road handle loaded logging trucks? None of us are confident it would.
> 
> They're open to possibly letting me build a driveway access through the swamp, but we all know that's either going to cost a fortune up front, or be an up-keep pain forever (or both). I'd rather not have extra two-lane roads through my woods, so it'll be a one road proposition.
> 
> My current trail will remain for atv and foot traffic.



Good luck with that, Jim. If I were your neighbor, you'd have 3 choices: build your access elsewhere, pay my asking price, or spend 3x my asking price in legal fees trying to prove your driveway NEEDED to go there, and then likely still have to pay my asking price or close to it. Eminent domain for private use is a real hard sell to most any court, much less one in a rural area where almost all the people who elect that judge are property owners.


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## northmanlogging

Maybe look into having an engineer take a look at your two road options. Have him come up with an estimate for cost of construction for both spots. If option 2 + the cost of buying access is still cheaper then crossing the swamp, then there is your answer. Hel he might even see a third option nobody looked at before. The only down side is said engineer will want to get paid...everybody wants some...


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## Jim Timber

Steve, you're not well informed on MN land laws.

We have a law that anyone with more than 2.5 acres is REQUIRED to be provided useful access to their property. If the county won't allow wetland damage, an easement will be provided. Compensation is whatever the township says it is, and I do have to pay the affected landowners, as I then become owner of that turf.

Look up "cart ways."

Some of you jr legal scholars might want to dispute this - have at it. The case law states that if I owned land along a road, but the access was up a cliff, that I would be granted an easement through other's property.

I'm land locked other than through my swamp.


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## Steve NW WI

Jim Timber said:


> Steve, you're not well informed on MN land laws.
> 
> We have a law that anyone with more than 2.5 acres is REQUIRED to be provided useful access to their property. If the county won't allow wetland damage, an easement will be provided. Compensation is whatever the township says it is, and I do have to pay the affected landowners, as I then become owner of that turf.
> 
> Look up "cart ways."
> 
> Some of you jr legal scholars might want to dispute this - have at it. The case law states that if I owned land along a road, but the access was up a cliff, that I would be granted an easement through other's property.
> 
> I'm land locked *other than through my swamp*.



Like I said, good luck getting it done by condemnation, as you've just stated you have "useful access" - it may be more expensive, but it is doable.


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## OlympicYJ

As I understood it the swamp would not qualify as useful access because the govt won't allow him to go through the swamp if there is an alternative route. Therefore it would qualify under the law he is quoting for condemnation because he is thereby landlocked and greater than 2.5 acres. That's how I understand it. Maybe I'm missing something.


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## Jim Timber

TEP panel's current position is to find another access. The township now gets to decide where that access goes.

I've been dealing with these people off and on for over a year. The next step is a formal petition for access.

Neighbor on the east wants over 30K for an unimproved wooded lot (2.5 acres) on the cul de sac. He flat refused 20k - which to me is still obscene for what it is. I may have to pay that in the end, but I'm moving forward with the township. I have no interest in that lot other than driving through it, so that's the path I'm pursuing.


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## Jim Timber

Fyi: TEP panel is comprised of County wetlands manager, DNR, county soil and water, and state environmentalist.

County wetlands guy and I are on the same page, and he oversee's the panel. I can have my driveway there, but they don't want trucks on that road. So since I need another access for logging, I'll leave the swamp alone.


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## Steve NW WI

If I were your adjoining landowner, I'd fight tooth and nail, and likely win. You have "useful access" to your property. Maybe not easy access to your home site, but useful access to the property nonetheless. Your log truck argument doesn't hold water in my book, even the most primitive 2 track across the swamp will be just fine in winter when the ground is frozen.

Near as I can tell, you weaseled the town into abandoning one road that gave you access, wanted to build your road across your swamp until you found out it'd cost good money to do it right, then decided you should have access across someone else's hard earned property to make your life easier.

I'm sure your neighbors already know this, but you're the reason those of us who've spent our lives in the country despise people who come out from the city, buy some land, and expect everything to happen exactly how they want it.

Thanks to ole BO getting re elected, people like you who'd rather have the government do it for them than earn something should have a nice next four years. Enjoy.

PS - I did do some reading on "cartways" - specifically this legal brief: http://www.township.guthrie.mn.us/Road_Bridge/Understanding Cartways - 13pages.pdf and I stick by my original assessment.


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## slowp

Roads to get logs out do not have to be a permanent fixture. You can try to make amends with your neighbor, put in the minimum standard of road needed to just get logs out, and after logging, repair fences, feelings, and block off the road. It might be good to be on good terms with your neighbors, regardless of "rights". 

Some good loggers I have worked with, were able to haul on shorter routes, because they would visit the adjacent landowner, sometimes bringing a gift of a fifth of good whiskey, or offer to do some minor work they needed, in exchange for a temporary right of way. They tried to keep on good terms with folks, because they too, were living in the same valley. 

To me, and I don't care what the law says or your "rights" it would be insulting to try to bulldoze a route through my property to save your recreational rifle range. Or your seclusion.


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## Jim Timber

The county wouldn't let the platted road be built anyway. And technically it was abandoned before I was born.

The logging access endangers 3 creek culverts if it uses the beach road.

The guy I'm dealing with on cutting through is hardly "one of you" country types. He bought that 40 ten years ago, subdivided it into two 10's and 6 2.5's and flipped it for profit with no intention of keeping anything rural. He's only sold one of the cul de sac lots, and that was to the guy who bought the existing house on one of the 10's.

I'd still go through my swamp if they'd let me, but I'm not destroying more habitat than I have to.


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## Jim Timber

Jr lawyer Steve, look at land locked on page 3. Ding ding ding we have a winner... THE COUNTY WILL NOT LET ME PUT A ROAD THROUGH MY SWAMP WIDER THAN A SINGLE LANE.


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## Steve NW WI

A single lane is "useful access". "I have a potty mouth" - and I don't mean that in the nice off topic way. I'm done here.


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## slowp

A logging road is usually a single lane road, with turnouts where needed. Why put in a double lane road?
You take more acres out of production, you increase road building costs, and if you are trying to not have your road noticed, well, that will be better achieved with a single lane road. 

Need rock? Rocking a road is expensive--at least here. Why increase costs by building a "double lane" road? Just wondering?


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## sodbreaker

Jim Timber said:


> TEP panel's current position is to find another access. The township now gets to decide where that access goes.
> 
> I've been dealing with these people off and on for over a year. The next step is a formal petition for access.
> 
> Neighbor on the east wants over 30K for an unimproved wooded lot (2.5 acres) on the cul de sac. He flat refused 20k - which to me is still obscene for what it is. I may have to pay that in the end, but I'm moving forward with the township. I have no interest in that lot other than driving through it, so that's the path I'm pursuing.



For what it's worth one of the guys I work for pretty frequently ( in Jenkins) had some land that was land locked from the road. He fought for an easment but the land owner wanted an absurd price for the easement. So he took the land owners estimate of what he thought the land was worth to the county land appraiser. The land owner dropped his price quite abit after that.,

Like I said, FWIW
Sod Breaker


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## Jim Timber

Spoke with the township roads guy today. Given that the county won't allow my log trucks on the beach road, he said they'd move forward with the easement process if I can't come to agreeable terms with the developer neighbor. So my current plan is to find out if his lots can be further divided to meet minimum lot size with a road between them, and then offer to purchase the easement directly.

If he refuses, the courts generally side with the petitioner, and compensation is based on appraised value. The township guy has seen this in the past, where a neighbor tried to block it and ended up being awarded half what the guy was originally offering to pay.


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## StihlKiwi

Slowp brought up a very good point before about temporary access through your neighbours property. Wouldn't it be a good idea to discuss that with him before the while easement thing comes up? All he can do is say no


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## Jim Timber

I'm not doing "one cut" - I'm doing a thinning, and will have another harvest within ten years after that, and another, and another, etc. Temp roads aren't a permanent solution.

To those harping about neighbors rights: when you buy property surrounding island parcels YOU should consider that someone else will need to access that land some day. I've offered the guy 30% over current tax valuation and he wants 60% more than I offered (210% of what it's worth).

Another comprehension error you've made is about my seclusion and rifle range - unless they burn the whole block down (900+ acres of woodlands), nothing anyone else does will effect my isolation. My rifle range won't be affected by the road's course either way this goes. Resale value of the lot in question will however be crap when people figure out I shoot high power rifles 150' from the only place on the lot you can build a house. My buying the lot now is doing him a freaking favor, yet he won't sell for a realistic price. Maybe we need to have a "come to Jesus" meeting about the future of his lots when I'll be popping off .50 BMG on my 800yd range. Before you guys get all pissy about that - there's federal money to save rifle ranges, and it's only $750 to get a permit for one to go public use/commercial. 

That range is priority #2, right behind building my house.


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## kodiak

Jim - Your emotions are getting the way of your manners. You are the one that came here asking for advice. If someone disagrees with your strategies or assumptions, it doesn't make them wrong. 

Oh, and the part about "Maybe we need to have a "come to Jesus" meeting about the future of his lots when I'll be popping off .50 BMG on my 800yd range"... You are exactly the type of new-to-the-country individual that was described earlier in not so pleasant terms.


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## slowp

You CAN have a temporary road and harvest every 10 years. You build it, log, place a gate or earth berm or some kind of blockage, insert a few drain dips or waterbars if needed, and reopen it in 10 years. You'll still have the rock footprint. It is a common practice to close roads between harvests and saves road maintenance $$. Hopefully, your closure keeps out ATVs and other traffic.


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## sodbreaker

My two cents....

The OP offered MORE then the land was worth for an easement, Hes not trying to condemn it and take it for nothing, although he should consider it if his neighbors continue to be A-Holes. I'm not a big fan of "city slickers" moving into the country anymore then the next guy. But the OP, based on what he has wrote here has made every reasonable attempt to keep peace with his neighbors and the local law enforcement.

Personaly if he wanted to drain lake superior to make his road I could not care less. But there are laws about wetlands and if you break them certain people will make you life a living h*ll. If easement to a public road can be made through his neighbors property without excessive disruption to said parcel I personaly don't see the problem.


ETA.

One more thing to add. Your user info says your from Brainerd. Depending on how far from Brainerd and in what direction you, Alot of the soil around there is sand and as such the swamps have a solid bottom under the peat. Alot times 3-6FT However there are a few peat bogs and the depth is indefinite to solid ground. The op should find out which case he has and then go from there.


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## redprospector

Wow! This is amazing.
News flash!!! Just because you can, does not make it right. Eminent domain my left hind leg. 
I bet that 84 acres was less expensive than the land next too it, eh? The stinking government has made it to where people don't have to think about anything. No access? No problem, we'll take it away from your neighbor. Who probably had plans for it, but no big deal, your plans are probably more important. How would you like it if they all of a sudden decided to take your 800 yard shooting range away from you, so someone behind you with a few acres could have cheaper access?
I guess all that I can really say is; JimTimber, please don't ever consider moving to New Mexico, please. We have enough people like you moving in. Some are actually learning some manners though. 

Andy


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## StihlKiwi

If you're only doing a bit of logging every 10 years what's wrong with using your single lane driveway as a truck access?


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## Gologit

redprospector said:


> Wow! This is amazing.
> News flash!!! Just because you can, does not make it right. Eminent domain my left hind leg.
> I bet that 84 acres was less expensive than the land next too it, eh? The stinking government has made it to where people don't have to think about anything. No access? No problem, we'll take it away from your neighbor. Who probably had plans for it, but no big deal, your plans are probably more important. How would you like it if they all of a sudden decided to take your 800 yard shooting range away from you, so someone behind you with a few acres could have cheaper access?
> I guess all that I can really say is; JimTimber, please don't ever consider moving to New Mexico, please. We have enough people like you moving in. Some are actually learning some manners though.
> 
> Andy



Well said. He probably wouldn't fit in around here too well, either. In fact I know he wouldn't.

We're used to people moving up here and their attitude that we're all a bunch of neanderthal, isolationist, room temperature IQ, mouth breathers who probably marry our cousins and move our lips when we read. In most cases they're wrong...but it's still irritating.

There was a guy from L.A who bought a piece of ground that cornered on mine. There was no real road access to his proposed building site but he could have easily built one. He decided not to.
He opted instead to inform me that I would be allowing him to use part of my road and that he'd cut a small access road that joined with mine to get to his property. He didn't ask, he didn't even suggest, he just flat told me what he was going to do. He also let it be known that he was no stranger to land deals and courts and getting his own way in whatever he decided to do. I didn't say much, other than no, and told him to do whatever he wanted but he wasn't coming across my place. Not then, not ever.

I'll spare you all the boring details...but after about a year of wrangling, hearings, petitions, more hearings and general aggravation, he wound up cutting his own road into his own property and not bothering me anymore. If he'd come to me in the first place and just asked I probably would have let him use my road.

He's since sold the property, with it's nice little road and nothing ever being built on it. He forgot to ask about water rights and well depth and things like that. Water is a little scarce where he wanted to build.
The new owners seem like nice people. They called me and introduced themselves and we met at the property and talked. They wanted to know where the lines were and how best to make use of the property and just basically how to be good neighbors. It was kind of refreshing. They're from New Mexico.


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## redprospector

Gologit said:


> Well said. He probably wouldn't fit in around here too well, either. In fact I know he wouldn't.
> 
> We're used to people moving up here and their attitude that we're all a bunch of neanderthal, isolationist, room temperature IQ, mouth breathers who probably marry their cousins and move their lips when they read. In most cases they're wrong...but it's still irritating.
> 
> There was a guy from L.A who bought a piece of ground that cornered on mine. There was no real road access to his proposed building site but he could have easily built one. He decided not to.
> He opted instead to inform me that I would be allowing him to use part of my road and that he'd cut a small access road that joined with mine to get to his property. He didn't ask, he didn't even suggest, he just flat told me what he was going to do. He also let it be known that he was no stranger to land deals and courts and getting his own way in whatever he decided to do. I didn't say much, other than no, and told him to do whatever he wanted but he wasn't coming across my place. Not then, not ever.
> 
> I'll spare you all the boring details...but after about a year of wrangling, hearings, petitions, more hearings and general aggravation, he wound up cutting his own road into his own property and not bothering me anymore. If he'd come to me in the first place and just asked I probably would have let him use my road.
> 
> He's since sold the property, with it's nice little road and nothing ever being built on it. He forgot to ask about water rights and well depth and things like that. Water is a little scarce where he wanted to build.
> The new owners seem like nice people. They called me and introduced themselves and we met at the property and talked. They wanted to know where the lines were and how best to make use of the property and just basically how to be good neighbors. It was kind of refreshing. They're from New Mexico.



I'd guess they were from Southern New Mexico. Most of the folks that move here from up around Albuquerque, and Santa Fe came from LA origionally.  
I'll probably catch some flack for that one from someone in Albuquerque, but it's worth it.

Andy


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## gjersy

Howdy jim timber? LOL, sounds like u know everything. Catch ya later.


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## OlympicYJ

Glad to hear ya got some good neighbors Bob! When my old man first bought his place back in 76, I believe maybe was 74. The neighbors were real friendly. Had built a brand new fence right on the old one just before he bought it and were aspousing how it was right on the line. Well wasn't too long the fence might be wrong! Had problems ever since. Goes to show what a lil strip of timber will do to folks. There be some punkins 30, 40, 50, maybe even some 60 inchers but the big ones aren't worth a crap cause they're wolfy. Hopefully you'll have some good neighbors well into the future. 

Wes


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## Jim Timber

Talked to my north neighbor today and will need to talk with a couple others, but I may be able to use an existing trail through their lots.

So nice of all you mouth breathers (funny, I never said anything bad about the people here, or anywhere else for that matter) to condemn me when I'm just trying to make use of my property.

Don't bother replying to me here, I've read enough of you too and won't be back to this thread.


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## Gologit

Jim Timber said:


> Don't bother replying to me here, I've read enough of you too and won't be back to this thread.



Good.


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## StihlKiwi

Gologit said:


> Good.



+1


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## madhatte

Geeze, you try to do a guy a solid...


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## sodbreaker

Jim Timber said:


> Don't bother replying to me here, I've read enough of you too and won't be back to this thread.



And thus AS has succeeded in driving away another member. It's funny how message board members (and not just those here) can form so many rigid conclusions about someone based on so very little.

But oh well
Sod breaker


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## StihlKiwi

I just flicked through the start of this thread to refresh myself on how this hissy fit started, and thought this was kinda interesting:



Jim Timber said:


> I'm land locked on the other sides of my swamp, so I'd have to get a cartway easement through at least 1/4 mile of neighboring property. That's something I vehemently oppose on principle (I detest imminent domain actions of government against the individual for another's benefit).



Less than two months later the guy got all pissed off and left when other members told him that they thought his plan of playing the eminent domain card was not cool?


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## northmanlogging

Was it my breath? I know I'm a jerk but do I stink too? These are important life altering questions.


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## redprospector

Jim Timber said:


> Talked to my north neighbor today and will need to talk with a couple others, but I may be able to use an existing trail through their lots.
> 
> So nice of all you mouth breathers (funny, I never said anything bad about the people here, or anywhere else for that matter) to condemn me when I'm just trying to make use of my property.
> 
> Don't bother replying to me here, I've read enough of you too and won't be back to this thread.



Hahaha. Come on Jim, we all know that you'll be logging out and slipping in here all stealthy like, and checkin' out what all us mouth breathers are saying about you. 

Andy


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## redprospector

sodbreaker said:


> And thus AS has succeeded in driving away another member. It's funny how message board members (and not just those here) can form so many rigid conclusions about someone based on so very little.
> 
> But oh well
> Sod breaker



Yup. Thank you, that's our job here. We listen to what anyone has to say for a while here. When they show their ass, we call em on it. They then have the choice, either ManUp or go away. Don't matter to most of us. Kinda like being tried by fire.

Andy


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## redprospector

StihlKiwi said:


> I just flicked through the start of this thread to refresh myself on how this hissy fit started, and thought this was kinda interesting:
> 
> Originally Posted by Jim Timber
> 
> 
> I'm land locked on the other sides of my swamp, so I'd have to get a cartway easement through at least 1/4 mile of neighboring property. That's something I vehemently oppose on principle (I detest imminent domain actions of government against the individual for another's benefit).
> 
> Less than two months later the guy got all pissed off and left when other members told him that they thought his plan of playing the eminent domain card was not cool?



Thanks for bringing this up. I wondered what that word "vehemently" ment. I think I figured it out now though, based on the recent turn of events. It must mean not too strongly. 

Andy


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## Gologit

sodbreaker said:


> And thus AS has succeeded in driving away another member. It's funny how message board members (and not just those here) can form so many rigid conclusions about someone based on so very little.
> 
> But oh well
> Sod breaker



You should know all about that. When you were posting in the Commercial tree care section and you got busted by the experienced guys there for running your mouth about things you knew nothing about they nailed you pretty good. And they should have.

People who have opinions will have those opinions argued with. If you can't handle that maybe the Doily Knitting and Kitten Cuddling threads might be more your speed.


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## gjersy

LOL:msp_biggrin:


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## slowp

First of all, you don't knit doilies. You tat them, I think. Secondly, why don't you Woman Up? 

Yup, I read this thread from the beginning and it doesn't add up. I spect we'll see him in the firewood or off topic thread soon, complaining about his neighbors. Those tend to add up in pages fast. 

Oh well....when all else fails, use this icon.opcorn: Then say, "In before lock." :msp_biggrin:


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## redprospector

slowp said:


> First of all, you don't knit doilies. You tat them, I think. *Secondly, why don't you Woman Up? *
> 
> Yup, I read this thread from the beginning and it doesn't add up. I spect we'll see him in the firewood or off topic thread soon, complaining about his neighbors. Those tend to add up in pages fast.
> 
> Oh well....when all else fails, use this icon.opcorn: Then say, "In before lock." :msp_biggrin:



Ok Patty, I'll admit to two things. 1. I'm not too good at this politically correct stuff, and 2. Women are pretty tough by nature. So go ahead and WomanUp if'n ya want to.

Andy


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## Gologit

slowp said:


> First of all, you don't knit doilies. You tat them, I think. Secondly, why don't you Woman Up?
> 
> Yup, I read this thread from the beginning and it doesn't add up. I spect we'll see him in the firewood or off topic thread soon, complaining about his neighbors. Those tend to add up in pages fast.
> 
> Oh well....when all else fails, use this icon.opcorn: Then say, "In before lock." :msp_biggrin:



Hey you...I'll knit a doily if I darn well want to and any way I want to and call it anything I want and even if it's totally impossible, impractical, hideously costly, illegal, and will totally irritate everybody in the four surrounding counties I'm still gonna do it my way. So there. Pffffft. 

The little popcorn icon is handy, though.

And, as long as I'm kvetching...Woman Up is just as bad as Man Up. I learned that in the sensitivity class the BIG TIMBER COMPANY sent me to. The correct term is "person up". So there.:msp_smile:


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## redprospector

Person up..........Person up.................. You better smile when you say that "Pilgrim". 
Maybe I'm just more sensative than most, but I ain't gonna "PersonUp", no stinkin' way.

Andy


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## slowp

Well, you could People Up, and eventually it might get shortened to Peep Up, or something shorter, and that might could be misconstrued. How about Dog Up? Or Kitty Up? Or My Little Pony Up? 

Now that I've been thinking on such deep subjects, I believe that doilies are crocheted. NOT knitted. 
You too, can go to a knitting and crocheting group and doze off. 

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## Gologit

redprospector said:


> Person up..........Person up.................. You better smile when you say that "Pilgrim".
> Maybe I'm just more sensative than most, but I ain't gonna "PersonUp", no stinkin' way.
> 
> Andy



Yeah, I agree...it doesn't really work. But at the Sensitivity training they said.....


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## Gologit

slowp said:


> Well, you could People Up, and eventually it might get shortened to Peep Up, or something shorter, and that might could be misconstrued. How about Dog Up? Or Kitty Up? Or My Little Pony Up?
> 
> Now that I've been thinking on such deep subjects, I believe that doilies are crocheted. NOT knitted.
> You too, can go to a knitting and crocheting group and doze off.
> 
> opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:



I think I'll pass 'cause, truth be told, I don't really know just exactly what a doily is anyway.


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## sodbreaker

Gologit said:


> You should know all about that. When you were posting in the Commercial tree care section and you got busted by the experienced guys there for running your mouth about things you knew nothing about they nailed you pretty good. And they should have.
> 
> People who have opinions will have those opinions argued with. If you can't handle that maybe the Doily Knitting and Kitten Cuddling threads might be more your speed.



You realy want to start that again?

Until you meet me, look over my business files and maybe spend a day in the trees with me you have no right or qualifications to judge me in any way and the same is true of the OP of this thread.


ETA
Then again you are the mod so you have access to a member's IP address so I suppose that gives you some insight the rest of us don't have. But still, Don't be selfish share your remote-viewing/ fortune telling abilities with the rest of us so we can all buy winning lottery tickets.

Sod Breaker


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## slowp

Gologit said:


> I think I'll pass 'cause, truth be told, I don't really know just exactly what a doily is anyway.



They are those crocheted in a circle almost like lace things that old people put on the arms and backs of chairs, so the Grecian Formula doesn't stain the furniture, or so the holes in the backs and arms of chairs are hidden. opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## paccity

opcorn: i'm bored. ha! winters comin. the fevers comin.


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## Gologit

slowp said:


> They are those crocheted in a circle almost like lace things that old people put on the arms and backs of chairs, so the Grecian Formula doesn't stain the furniture, or so the holes in the backs and arms of chairs are hidden. opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:



Thank you for that. I think.


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## redprospector

I confered with my wife's kitty. I think I'll just continue to ManUp, but you can WomanUp if you'd like. 

Andy


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## paccity

knit some coasters while your at it don't want rings on the wood.:msp_unsure:


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## slowp

I got some nice coasters made out of yew wood. Not my wood, but yew wood.........Drum roll and cymbol crash here.
opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## paccity

ha!


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## Gologit

Okay, I give up. 'Nite.


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## OlympicYJ

redprospector said:


> Yup. Thank you, that's our job here. We listen to what anyone has to say for a while here. When they show their ass, we call em on it. They then have the choice, either ManUp or go away. Don't matter to most of us. Kinda like being tried by fire.
> 
> Andy



Just like bein out in the brush. If you can't hack it real fast your off the show. This is how you cull the herd. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## lfnh

paccity said:


> opcorn: i'm bored. ha! winters comin. the fevers comin.



LOL

"mouth breathers", that one stumped me. never heard that before.
expect i'll have to be on the lookout now for that one.
what about "nose breathers" ? 

maybe a new roll of tin foil needs to be had for the winter.

any advice ?


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## Gologit

lfnh said:


> LOL
> 
> "mouth breathers", that one stumped me. never heard that before.
> expect i'll have to be on the lookout now for that one.
> what about "nose breathers" ?
> 
> maybe a new roll of tin foil needs to be had for the winter.
> 
> any advice ?



Nope. After all that I'm fresh out of advice.


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## Cedarkerf

Wow shoulda tuned into this thread when it started some good entertainment here


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## Gologit

Cedarkerf said:


> Wow shoulda tuned into this thread when it started some good entertainment here



Yup, it's always fun when somebody asks for "advice" when what he really wants is validation for what he's already decided to do. When the validation isn't forthcoming they tend to get a little grumpy and defensive, don't they?


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## floyd

I read here for education. I read here for entertainment.

This thread went under entertainment on pg 2 for me.


I, for one, will continue to visit the thread. I will not offer anything useful.


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## KiwiBro

StihlKiwi said:


> I just flicked through the start of this thread to refresh myself on how this hissy fit started, and thought this was kinda interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> Less than two months later the guy got all pissed off and left when other members told him that they thought his plan of playing the eminent domain card was not cool?


 The flip side of that is when you are stupid enough to take a fruit loop neighbour at his word and spend thousands of $ building a link road to his nice forestry road and when you are about ready to roll wood along it he wakes up one day and decides to be offended by something you haven't done yet but according to him sure will soon enough.

So you are thousands of $ in a hole and no road to show for it and have to spend time and $ getting wood out the long way. Even if a legal agreement was drawn up, enforcing it would cost more time and $ than it's worth.

Lesson learned.


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## Jim Timber

I've never wanted to do eminent domain, and I still don't. That's a very last resort which I haven't come to yet. There's still other options left to pursue.

If you have an issue with me, feel free to add me to your ignore list.


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## StihlKiwi

Jim Timber said:


> Talked to my north neighbor today and will need to talk with a couple others, but I may be able to use an existing trail through their lots.
> 
> So nice of all you mouth breathers (funny, I never said anything bad about the people here, or anywhere else for that matter) to condemn me when I'm just trying to make use of my property.
> 
> *Don't bother replying to me here, I've read enough of you too and won't be back to this thread.*



Yea?


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## slowp

Can you post your video on here?


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## Jim Timber

I'd rather let this train wreck thread die.


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## jwilly

Wow! I got nothing out of this thread.


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## Jim Timber

Silvicultural permanent exemption filed today, and will be officially approved in 15 business days. They have to wait out the comment period before signing off, but I've been given permission to start bringing in fill for a 12' wide road bed under the winter rules.


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## Gologit

Jim Timber said:


> Silvicultural permanent exemption filed today, and will be officially approved in 15 business days. They have to wait out the comment period before signing off, but I've been given permission to start bringing in fill for a 12' wide road bed under the winter rules.



After all this time there's no more progress than that?


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## Jim Timber

I bought a tractor this spring. Cleared and planted a half acre orchard last fall. Had 6 nerves in my neck cooked in '13 and again in '14, had two elbow nerve surgeries winter of '13.

I didn't even spend more than a couple weekends up there last summer.

I paid cash for the property. I don't need to make a dime off it.

First loads of fill will be coming next week.


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## brnchbrkr

Need pictures


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## chucker

jim, your apple orchard should have done well with the mild winter we had... hope all your work grafting them starters work out!


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## Jim Timber

I was up there (in the orchard) about a month ago and the trees seemed ok from the look of things.

Part of the slow progress on the exemption was the old road North through the neighbor's place. There's 5 families who co-own that property and it took a committee vote to deny my use of it. Their easement was at the mercy of another land owner, which made them sympathetic to my situation, but they ended up buying another lot their access crossed and that gave some family members an attitude change. Until that door was officially closed, I couldn't qualify for the permanent exemption, so I never filed for it.

They have no problems with me using that road for atv's and cars, but it's barely 6' wide, so trucks are a no-go without significant cutting. Truck traffic, fire trucks, EMS - none of them can access the site now.

I ended up fighting a frozen septic system today, but will resume working on the swamp road tomorrow. Our weather is wonderful now (mid 30's), so working in the woods is a treat.


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## chucker

I hear you on the weather.. cant wait till Monday to hit the woods again for myself with the heat wave it should be a breath of fresh air cutting with out a heavy jacket... wanted to do some cutting this weekend but the new brood of chicks wanted to fly out of the pen I have next to the wood stove in the porch! so my day today was to revamp the heated coop for an additional 26 more white rock pullets an 2 roosters.. these will make for a better supply of fresh eggs around the middle of june and good chicken dinners this fall and winter. this puts me with 55 birds to feed with 17 eggs coming daily for now.... sorry to hear about your sewer freezing up! went through that 8 years ago , cover the danged thing every year now!! lol


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