# Logging by the Thousand?



## KYLogger (May 22, 2012)

I recently had a proposal from a fellow logger who runs a highball (for around here) logging outfit who is swamped (1,400 ac. under contract) right now to do some sub contract cutting and skidding (he will load and haul). He said he would pay me by the thousand. I am just starting to get serious about all this and need all the work I can get. I have logged out several smaller jobs with a farm tractor and winch etc... but am jumping in head first with the proper equipment, if I can get the work lined out. My question is has anybody done this type of work in hillside hardwood timber and if so what is a reasonable price to try to agree upon per thousand? I'll be running a two man crew with a 450 E JD dozer and a 450 TJ skidder, and to beat all the job is a half mile from the house, right next to the farm I'm logging on right now! He also said he would be willing to turn me onto some smaller jobs he has under contract that he just doesnt have time for. I don't care to work and would like to get enough work lined up to last me about a year before I say to heck with my pipeline job and become self employed again.

Tom


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## tramp bushler (May 22, 2012)

No idea how to bid it . But figure ALL COSTS add 30% and don't go below that . Then realistically figure your production . Then if you start loggin full time . Becarefull and Don't get hurt .!!


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## Gologit (May 22, 2012)

A member here, hammerlogging, is experienced in the kind of stuff you want to do. He's pretty sharp. If he doesn't show up on here soon I'd suggest sending him a PM. He might be able to answer some questions for you.


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## hammerlogging (May 23, 2012)

Thanks mr gologit-

KY, what you can log it for depends on quite a few variables. you only have to cut and skid, he will deck, merchandise, and load?

I'm not sure what part of your state you're in, some places are pretty moderate but some can be truly steep. And when you say things like 1400 acres, I start to wonder about skid distance. And when the landing fills up cause he's hauling and the trucks haven't been able to get in there for 2 weeks and he won't rock the road he only rocks the road to his own landing, then what?

Also, consider board feet per tree and board feet per acre you expect to remove. So the success or failure might be hidden in the details somewhere. In fact, I gaurantee it is, cause its a slim margin business.

For starters, to give you an idea of range, which is a huge range depending on skill, capability, relationships, and on and on, the whole package can range from $140 to $215 for conventional logging. Not that you make any money more on the $215 jobs if you know what I mean. How much is the bucking and loading portion worth, well, its the part with the least variables, maybe $40/mbf Real ball park here though.

Also, you can't go into this with all your eggs in one basket, better ask around to see what you woulod do if he were to cut you off.


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## Oldtimer (May 23, 2012)

So many things to think about, as Hammer has said..

IMO, weather is the biggest variable...if it rains hard for 2 weeks...you can get hungry.
I recall seeing you say the equipment will be owned outright...

Not to be unrealistic, but you should stop and consider a few other options.

Is it worthwhile to skip the old bone equipment and get yourself some newer high production stuff?

Let me explain with my own plan...

I was going to buy another skidder...then I decided a rubber tired sawhead was better..
then I though about it, and decided a loader slasher delimber was the ticket. Since 90% of the work and saw related danger is in limbing and bucking..

THEN I thought some more...and now I have come to my final solution...Almost certain of it.
I intend to buy a leveling machine with a fixed head processor...preferably a Quadco 5660 head. This will allow me the option of doing "true" cut to length, cut and bunch limbed tree-length for the grapple skidder, or cut and bunched whole tree for chipping if need be....and then be able to process & merchandise on the landing.

See, the one machine can do the job of 2 conventional whole tree logging machines for less than the cost of the 2...with less fuel, and no need of an extra man.
I will no longer be at the mercy of the weather, either.
The Quadco website has several 5660 videos that helped me make my decision..
Mind you, you can take off the big leader limbs of big hardwoods with this saw..when the delimber knives can't. And there's always the old husky saw if the machine does break and I need to keep putting out wood.

So, consider other options if you have the $15K or whatever on hand...sometimes it's better to spend some money up front..you want to be able to move wood, not work on stuff or make due with old stuff..

As for what you can work for by the C&T...you want to not only cover expenses- and there's a lot of those- and not just make a living after that...you want to ALSO make a PROFIT to bank.
If you can't put at least $200 a week aside to have on hand for breakdowns, weather delays, sickness, and reinvestment into the business...then keep the job you have. And remember, healthcare is a big concern...


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## KYLogger (May 23, 2012)

I am in the Appalachain mtns ( we calls em' hills around here) in E. Ky. Alot of the stuff we log is steep as a cows face so this is and always will be dozer and cable skidder country (though I could make a killing with a yarder and a good crew, there is lots of potential here for that imo) The only reason I am even considering this job is that it would be a supplement to the jobs I already have lined up until I have enough under contrace that I can keep myself busy full time. I know it's not going to be as profitible as me logging it and marketing it but it should make some good connections for me, and like I said it's right next to the house!!! Oh yeah......did I mention it's a blowdown site from the "little" tornado that swep through here. No worries it's all up rooted not twisted or snapped off. 

Now the replies should get interesting. LOL

Tom


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## Oldtimer (May 24, 2012)

I'd want at least $150 per thousand for logs if I were cutting hardwood on steep ground with a dozer. Speaking just for me, with the way things are here. That's $525 per 3,500 board foot tri-axle straight job log truck load. 
That would be cut, skid, saw up to correct grade & requirement. And that would also be only if I could make a load a day go out. I'd want more if I had 2 days in a load of wood.
Pulp & firewood I'd want $300 a load (9 cord).

You'll make more happen working together (2 men) than separate with one on each machine.
The best chopper / saw hand should do that, and both should be hitching up in the woods- one tosses chains and pulls the cable, the other drags the cable to the trees and sets the chains.
Go light and go often. No money to be found wasting time on a big hitch. Waste of time and money. If 2 come easy, and 3 comes with some effort, go with 2. Don't waste time on the landing with pushing up. Drop and run until the landing area is too full for another hitch. Then both of you saw up...myself, I run the tape and my man saws. I stay one log ahead, deciding and measuring.
Then saw up and or deck wood out of the way with the grapple so you have room, and repeat.

You prolly will have better luck hot-yarding with the dozer for most of the day, or even for a few days, then yarding it out with the skidder. Not to try and tell you what you already know, just saying what I know to be true here.


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## Samlock (May 24, 2012)

Well, I had several cases before I had difficulty putting a price tag on a job I don't know much about. I've found it best to play it straight and say: "Look, I don't know enough to give you any price. Would you tell me what this work is worth to you and what kind of money are you willing to pay me to get it done?"

That's usually a hit from behind. Element of surprise. A man can't control his reactions if he's not prepared. If the guy touches his earlobe before giving you his answer, walk away. A straight player most probably will take an involuntary glance over your shoulder to make sure you are not hiding anything behind your back. 

Poor advice, but that's what I'd do.


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## parttime (May 24, 2012)

Hi Ky, I asked a couple of friends of mine that log for a living and one get $210 a thousand and the other gets $220. both said they were underpaided. I'm a few counties east of you in southern wv.. good luck


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## Gologit (May 24, 2012)

*First thing...*

Figure out what it's going to cost you to run your equipment, what your actual costs are to get out there and log. If you don't know, beforehand, what it's costing you to do business it's impossible to know if you're keeping enough profit margin.

If you don't know your operating costs it's impossible to bid a job and know absolutely that you'll turn a profit.

If you don't know what your costs are you can work for quite awhile, losing money so slowly that you don't realize that you're going broke until it happens.

Logging is no different than any other business. All that book work and number crunching is a major PIA. But if you're going to be successful you have to do it. There is no other way.


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## redprospector (May 24, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Figure out what it's going to cost you to run your equipment, what your actual costs are to get out there and log. If you don't know, beforehand, what it's costing you to do business it's impossible to know if you're keeping enough profit margin.
> 
> If you don't know your operating costs it's impossible to bid a job and know absolutely that you'll turn a profit.
> 
> ...



This is the best advice I've seen in a long time. 
If you don't know your operating costs, do some home work and get some estimates (educated guesses), Fuel consumption, oil changes, wear parts (undercairrage etc.), and whatever you do, don't forget to figure in replacement cost. It really doesn't matter what some one else will do the job for. If they're going broke you sure don't want to under bid them. 
If I'm going to go broke, I'd rather do it fishing. 

Andy


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## hammerlogging (May 27, 2012)

redprospector said:


> This is the best advice I've seen in a long time.
> If you don't know your operating costs, do some home work and get some estimates (educated guesses), Fuel consumption, oil changes, wear parts (undercairrage etc.), and whatever you do, don't forget to figure in replacement cost. It really doesn't matter what some one else will do the job for. If they're going broke you sure don't want to under bid them.
> If I'm going to go broke, I'd rather do it fishing.
> 
> Andy



Giving new, or re-newed meaning to the old phrase, "cutting the #### out of your timber" every day. 'at a way red.


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## bitzer (May 28, 2012)

My guess is the guy already has his $/mbf in mind for you. Whatever you do there is little wiggle room to make it work. Production is a different ballgame when expenses are on the line. Simple decisions will effect your long term and leave you kicking yourself in the ass. Rain-the enemy. I would nail down as many details as you can and then make sure you're going to keep wood in front of you for months/years to come if you go all in.


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## Gologit (May 28, 2012)

bitzer said:


> My guess is the guy already has his $/mbf in mind for you. Whatever you do there is little wiggle room to make it work. Production is a different ballgame when expenses are on the line. Simple decisions will effect your long term and leave you kicking yourself in the ass. Rain-the enemy. I would nail down as many details as you can and then make sure you're going to keep wood in front of you for months/years to come if you go all in.



Yup. Planning, or trying to, is key.


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## Humptulips (May 28, 2012)

I'll chime in here. Knowing what your costs are going to be is great. Where logging differs from a lot of other endeavors is knowing what kind of production you can expect. Expenses divided by 2 loads or 10 could be the difference between bankruptcy and rich. Doubt if you'll get to the rich end. 
A world of difference in production in different areas too. An area you are unfamiliar with may present problems not always obvious.
I would suggest sniffing around to see what other similar logging operations are doing for production in the area and use that as a guide.


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## KYLogger (May 28, 2012)

Just got to walk the boundary, all blow down as I think I stated........it's a mess. The current boundary I am in is also a blowdown site and also a mess. It's gonna be alot of work but I am pretty sure I can at least make 1 1/2 what I am making a week currently, after figuring all expenses. Timber is selling good around here right now. Obviously I would like to have enough timber to log myself, however seeing as I am attempting to start out I think it would be beneficial to make a little less dinero and get my name out etc......and still make more money than I am currently and hope to get to the position where I am not reliant on other loggers to log by the mbf......... I appreciate all the insight keep it coming!

Tom


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## bitzer (May 28, 2012)

I've never worked a full blowdown patch, but it would seem like a can of worms. Hard to dig in. Production varying greatly. Basically you're cleaning up a mess. Yeah the woods down, but not laid out for production. 

One other major consideration that may ring true more for others is who you've got to support at home. If its you by your lonesome, starving isn't so bad when the weather/machines aren't co-operating. A nervous wife and a bunch of kids at home can make things interesting. 

Also as a rule of thumb your equipment will break down shortly after a long shut down.


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## hammerlogging (May 28, 2012)

bitzer said:


> Also as a rule of thumb your equipment will break down shortly after a long shut down.



And thunder shook, and thus the word was spoken.


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## Gologit (May 28, 2012)

bitzer said:


> Also as a rule of thumb your equipment will break down shortly after a long shut down.



True...but it also breaks down the day before you finish a job with another job on the books that has a firm start date.
When you don't have anything else to do, work on your machinery.


KYLogger...one of these days we'll have something _cheerful_ to say, honest we will.


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## bitzer (May 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> True...but it also breaks down the day before you finish a job with another job on the books that has a firm start date.
> When you don't have anything else to do, work on your machinery.
> 
> 
> KYLogger...one of these days we'll have something _cheerful_ to say, honest we will.



I forgot about that one too! The dreaded last day of the job. I cringe when the last day comes and I just tell myself I will be back tomorrow or next week. Its not until my machine is hauled and rolling on the next job that I feel better again. I once finished the last four turns with no spin on my grapple. I snapped a hose and didn't have the right fitting and didn't have the time to run for one. Rain was coming. I had to bang it into stuff to get it to turn and fish with it. Kind of like one of those claw games you see in bowling alleys. If I accidently tried to spin it a 10 ft hot stream of hydraulic fluid reminded me it was the last day of the job. Got er done anyhow. Lots of oily logs went to the mill that week.


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## coastalfaller (May 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Yup. Planning, or trying to, is key.



What was that about best laid plans?!...........

Kinda like planning a February start in one area and it now being almost June 1st and yet to fall a single tree? Kinda like that?!


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## Gologit (May 29, 2012)

coastalfaller said:


> What was that about best laid plans?!...........
> 
> Kinda like planning a February start in one area and it now being almost June 1st and yet to fall a single tree? Kinda like that?!



Exactly like that. But we still keep planning. Makes us feel all organized and efficient. Even when we're not. Especially when we're not.


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## coastalfaller (May 29, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Exactly like that. But we still keep planning. Makes us feel all organized and efficient. Even when we're not. Especially when we're not.



LOL. Yes we do, Bob...and yes it does!!


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2012)

coastalfaller said:


> What was that about best laid plans?!...........
> 
> Kinda like planning a February start in one area and it now being almost June 1st and yet to fall a single tree? Kinda like that?!



Man that sucks . . .... thats why I never make a plan ..:cool2:


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## Sagetown (May 29, 2012)

KYLogger said:


> Just got to walk the boundary, all blow down as I think I stated........it's a mess. The current boundary I am in is also a blowdown site and also a mess. It's gonna be alot of work but I am pretty sure I can at least make 1 1/2 what I am making a week currently, after figuring all expenses. Timber is selling good around here right now. Obviously I would like to have enough timber to log myself, however seeing as I am attempting to start out I think it would be beneficial to make a little less dinero and get my name out etc......and still make more money than I am currently and hope to get to the position where I am not reliant on other loggers to log by the mbf......... I appreciate all the insight keep it coming!
> 
> Tom



Got off a few Reps here. Including Gologit; coastfaller.


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## Oldtimer (May 29, 2012)

OK, I didn't realize the tract you are looking to do is blow-down.

IMO, the guy who wants to hire you is one sly fox. He'll be doing the gravy, you'll be dozer-logging blow-downs on the face of a cliff.
*I think you have the ability to go get your OWN woodlot. And if I were you, that is exactly what I'd be doing.* 
I really think this is a mistake for you right now. Spending the savings you have on unknown equipment and then betting that you can make money on steep ground in blow-downs by the cord and thousand...it's not going to end well for you.

Go locate and agree to buy some good timber all on your own. Find the best timber you can, on the best ground you can. BUY IT RIGHT. Remember, if all you go after really good timber- all you will cut is really good timber.
Then go get the equipment...and like I said, do consider having a payment on machines that are able to really produce- preferably in all weather.

Not trying to be a downer here. I just do not want a fellow logger and seemingly real nice guy get screwed.


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## Johny Utah (May 29, 2012)

KYLogger said:


> I recently had a proposal from a fellow logger who runs a highball (for around here) logging outfit who is swamped (1,400 ac. under contract) right now to do some sub contract cutting and skidding (he will load and haul). He said he would pay me by the thousand. I am just starting to get serious about all this and need all the work I can get. I have logged out several smaller jobs with a farm tractor and winch etc... but am jumping in head first with the proper equipment, if I can get the work lined out. My question is has anybody done this type of work in hillside hardwood timber and if so what is a reasonable price to try to agree upon per thousand? I'll be running a two man crew with a 450 E JD dozer and a 450 TJ skidder, and to beat all the job is a half mile from the house, right next to the farm I'm logging on right now! He also said he would be willing to turn me onto some smaller jobs he has under contract that he just doesnt have time for. I don't care to work and would like to get enough work lined up to last me about a year before I say to heck with my pipeline job and become self employed again.
> 
> Tom



IMHO you are nuts to give up a pipeline job to go into debt and fight the competitiveness for little money and ball busting work. Just do it as a side job.


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2012)

I guess it depends on how much you NEED to run your own show . I could be steady on The Slope as a Union Laborer if I wanted t be making 60-80k Take home net . . . But then I'de be in Deadhorse not home . I getreal tired of being gone bustin butt for 6 week hitches of 7/12s . . I really only have 1 speed 
. Work as hard as I can . 
Runnin my own show loggin in the winter , I,m doing what I want to making stumps and I get to be home every night . No dought K L will have some tough times . But if its what he needs to do then I say , Go Ahead On Er . .

By not having big payments . He won't be under the gun as much and may well have alot better home life . . Also with SOOOO many things he's going to learn . He can learn them at a pace where hopefully he won't get hurt . As it is he will have his plate full just bucking fresh blowdown .


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2012)

I don't know about eastern timber . But as he has steep ground its going to take everything he's got toget the stuff off the root and sta
y alive and healthy .!!

Here on the coast bucking fresh blowdown is the most dangerous cutting there is . And that is saying alot. Definately not for the short bar , flat land crowd . 

A friend of mine got killed in Tolstoy Bay buckin blowdown . 
It ain't for the faint of heart . .


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2012)

Actually , in his situation I would highly recomend him finding a good faller . Hammer may know a good one that needs work , . And K L work with him some to learn the ropes . Then when they have a weeks worth cut start loggin so the bucker has some breathin room and K L always has loggin in front of the machines . .


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## Oldtimer (May 29, 2012)

I wouldn't see him give up on logging, I'd just see him give up on this particualar job.
If this were in my back yard, and the job was offered to me- dozer logging blowdown hardwoods on steep ground...I'd want to split the money 75/25, and the other guy would pay stumpage - if any - out of his 25%....and even then I'd have to have no other work to go do.

It's super dangerous, it's super labor intensive, and it doesn't sound like there's any money to be made..

Rule #2 in logging: Know when to say "NO"...


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2012)

My biggest problem with gypo loggin is the business side . So I'm not a good one on that . But the cutting side is going to be spooky .


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## hammerlogging (May 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Actually , in his situation I would highly recomend him finding a good faller . Hammer may know a good one that needs work , . And K L work with him some to learn the ropes . Then when they have a weeks worth cut start loggin so the bucker has some breathin room and K L always has loggin in front of the machines . .




If I were him I would try and get some third party advice for sure, someone who has been around a bit, maybe some training, at least someone to help sketch out how to operate successfully.


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## KYLogger (May 29, 2012)

As always great info; now I'll try to give you a little background and insight on me (so you all can get a better understanding of who I am and what I know) While not a timber faller with decades of exp (I am only 28) I do have alot of time on the loud side of a 2 stroke! This is by no means my first logging job either, I cut for a crew for about six months (contract cutting), have bought small boundaries and logged them before (full time for a while then part time) and have logged ice storm damaged timber in 09. Currently I have bought a boundary of approximately 75 acres of blowdown that I have been in for about a month now. I have been logging with a tractor and winch and NEED to upgrade equipment (35 acres of the boundary I am on now are under the cliffs, big second growth oak, poplar, and white pine, so a skidder and dozer are needed to get it out) I know I can get timber bought on my own, but as I see it, it will take some time. I was just considering this as a means of added income until I can get my schedule full. I understand this guy is a businessman and knows he can make money off of my labor, which I do not mind as long as I can make a decent living. I had only planned doing this as a one time deal and did not want to get sucked into the "working for the man" vortex. Currently I am employed by a pipeline contractor who works for Columbia Gas, I am home every night but am currently working 92 miles one way from home and am getting tired of relatively low wages and seeing my house only in the dark, not to mention missing my 4 year old boy growing up And logging on raindays and weekends is just not cutting it, hauling to the mills at night and on the weekends and having to unload the truck myself. Absolutely no production there!
As I was formerly self employed I fully understand the: sometimes you just gotta say NO! I learned the hard way if you don't you can end up working you hind end off for little or no profit!

And a big 10-4 on the blowdown being absolutely NUTS..........IT IS.............. Buckin' em off the stump is always a blast! (note the sarcasm) About 3/4 of the root balls set back down so you think you know whats gonna happen........until it doesn't!


Tom


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## coastalfaller (May 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Man that sucks . . .... thats why I never make a plan ..:cool2:



Yep, been brutal, snow is still hanging on up high. Thank god we've been going elsewhere!


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## tramp bushler (May 30, 2012)

Hey Tom 
its good t hear you've got some good experience . I think you have a good shot . But its going t be alot of hard work . 
Having a good blow down bucker will ftee you up to concenyrate on the iron and the loggin . Hopefully there are some professionals there . . Did it blow down up and down the hill or ctoss ways , along the hill .


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## KYLogger (May 30, 2012)

Most of it fell cross hill. I have got white pines laying on oaks laying on poplars laying on pines.....Some of the tops are 8' off the ground! This is some of the bigger timber I have cut in, the white pines and hemlocks are averaging in the 40" + mark.....This on the site I personally have under contract, still up in the air about the contract work, need to get with him and hash out the details and see if we can see eye to eye.

Tom


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## Oldtimer (May 30, 2012)

You should try to finance a leveling tracked buncher with a hotsaw. It'll make the blowdown SAFER and far more profitable. If need be, you can always find somebody to assume the payment or buy it off for the balance of the loan..I personally would want to be able to see my boy grow up...blowdown hardwood is about as dangerous as it gets.

Good luck.


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## tramp bushler (May 30, 2012)

KYLogger said:


> Most of it fell cross hill. I have got white pines laying on oaks laying on poplars laying on pines.....Some of the tops are 8' off the ground! This is some of the bigger timber I have cut in, the white pines and hemlocks are averaging in the 40" + mark.....This on the site I personally have under contract, still up in the air about the contract work, need to get with him and hash out the details and see if we can see eye to eye.
> 
> Tom



I hope your not going after this with some stubby bared , half wrap small , 65 cc saw . 

40" on the stump blowdown is at least 75 ccs and 90 cc is better . 32" bar or longer and absolutely need a wrap handle bar . There are lots of times you can only run the saw left handed . . Actually , it sounds real interesting . It'de be fun .


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## KYLogger (May 30, 2012)

You know it! That's how it's done here in hardwood country, however I am not your typical cigarette hanging outta the corner of your mouth, tall tractor cap wearin, pull on redwing boot wearin, Wal-Mart wrangler wearin, cut off collared shirt logger that is typical around here. Not that I have a problem with all the aforementioned that's actually what I look like when not in the woods (sans cigarette) What I am gettin' at is I find what works for me and is functional in the woods and put that to use. I am open to change, slippin down a 60 degree slope in slick soled pull on boots is retarded, double fronts last longer than regular jeans, hard hats keep whats left in my noggin........in my noggin, chaps keep me from a repeat $1,800 hospital bill, and dang it if a 90cc saw with a full wrap works better than I will gladly be be tha' oddball around here. This is the land of the 460s and I really want one, but I found a cherry 660 for $800 bones!!! Man that's alot of saw to pack all day though! Hmmmmm..........I might be the only logger running around here that looks like a PNW guy soon.........If it works use it, if it don't modify it or junk it!

Tom


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## tramp bushler (May 31, 2012)

Nothing wrong with and using the right tools in the right way . The ignoramisis who get sliced, crushed, and end up witheir brains scrambled . Arn't much !!! 

As far as production , guality + saftey . I'de match the west coast bushler against any cutters , anywhere when the ground gets steep and the wood gets big . Its what we do all the time . 
Big wood , steep ground + bad conditions is the only reason we still haven't been replaced by machines .


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## tramp bushler (May 31, 2012)

Tom , thats why alot of us wear a leather pad on our spenders . . If the chain isn't in the wood , theres no sense wearin out your money makin arm . A couple weeks with it and your arm will rise to the occasion . You would be suprised at the bandy sometimes little guys that I've seen keep up with 075s , 2100 s 056 mag IIs ect . .


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## hammerlogging (Jun 1, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Big wood , steep ground + bad conditions is the only reason we still haven't been replaced by machines .





I hope that qualifies as a business plan.:msp_wink:


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## tramp bushler (Jun 1, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> I hope that qualifies as a business plan.:msp_wink:



. Yup . For where I'm at now . Flatter ground , smaller wood . A harvestor is alot more productive. 
But start up cost is insurmountable for me . Then theres the longer term availability of both timber and market .


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## hammerlogging (Jun 1, 2012)

I meant for me. oversize, steep, thats what i do.


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> I meant for me. oversize, steep, thats what i do.



Yup. Sounds familiar. I wish it didn't.


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## hammerlogging (Jun 1, 2012)

you may say that, but I suspect that a few weeks away and you might itch for another one last run.


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> you may say that, but I suspect that a few weeks away and you might itch for another one last run.



:hmm3grin2orange: Darn it, I can't find the "one finger salute" smiley. I hate it when you're right.


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