# Huztl / Farmertec ms 440



## tbohn (Jan 5, 2017)

I just received my new Huztl aftermarket ms 440 parts kit. This is a new kit from Huztl and I like the looks of the parts so far.

I would like to hear about other builders of these kits. I think they will be popular at under $300 delivered.


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## Big_Wood (Jan 6, 2017)

300 delivered? how much did you pay? i installed one on a 440 summer 2016 and it was under $100 shipped on ebay lol probably one of the better hutzl cylinders as far as bevelling and ran good. not a fan of the plating though. seems they're getting tired by 200 tanks.


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## CR888 (Jan 6, 2017)

westcoaster90 said:


> 300 delivered? how much did you pay? i installed one on a 440 summer 2016 and it was under $100 shipped on ebay lol probably one of the better hutzl cylinders as far as bevelling and ran good. not a fan of the plating though. seems they're getting tired by 200 tanks.


He is not talking about a Hutzle P/C....its a complete parts 440 saw like the 361/660 kits.


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## dswensen (Jan 6, 2017)

I ordered one too. How long did delivery take after your order? Mine was $280 which included $98-ish for processing/shipping.




tbohn said:


> I just received my new Huztl aftermarket ms 440 parts kit. This is a new kit from Huztl and I like the looks of the parts so far.
> 
> I would like to hear about other builders of these kits. I think they will be popular at under $300 delivered.


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## tbohn (Jan 6, 2017)

dswensen said:


> I ordered one too. How long did delivery take after your order? Mine was $280 which included $98-ish for processing/shipping.


10 days.


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## tbohn (Jan 6, 2017)

The Huztl site showed a spur sprocket with the kit but it came with a rim sprocket. The crankcase has a nice finish and seems well built. It has a Duel Port muffler with no internal baffles. I put the case together last night. The case halves were put in a preheated oven (Turned off) for 10 minutes. The crank was outside on my deck at -10F. The flywheel side in easily and the clutch side went on with little force from the crankcase screws. I am still waiting for a Huztl 52mm cylinder kit I ordered from ebay.
Here are some photos


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## dswensen (Jan 6, 2017)

Trying to glean some wisdom here for my build -

I get the "preheated, oven turned off before case halves went in for 10 minutes" part. But what did you preheat to? 250? 225?

Did you put the flywheel side together first and maybe the temps of the pieces got closer together before you put the other side on, making the crankcase screws necessary to get it together? I'm wondering how fast you have to work to take advantage of the heating of crankcase and cooling of crank.

Also, did you get any shipping notices? Or did it just show up 10 days later? I ordered mine 5 days ago and have heard nothing since.

Thank you for posting for those of us who come behind ....



tbohn said:


> The Huztl site showed a spur sprocket with the kit but it came with a rim sprocket. The crankcase has a nice finish and seems well built. It has a Duel Port muffler with no internal baffles. I put the case together last night. The case halves were put in a preheated oven (Turned off) for 10 minutes. The crank was outside on my deck at -10F. The flywheel side in easily and the clutch side went on with little force from the crankcase screws. I am still waiting for a Huztl 52mm cylinder kit I ordered from ebay.
> Here are some photos


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## Big_Wood (Jan 6, 2017)

seems like one heck of a price for the whole build a saw kit! didn't even catch that.


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## Ozhoo (Jan 6, 2017)

dswensen said:


> ...Also, did you get any shipping notices? Or did it just show up 10 days later? I ordered mine 5 days ago and have heard nothing since.
> 
> Thank you for posting for those of us who come behind ....



No shipping confirmations, but you can check the status of your order from the "View Your Order History" page on your account. You can enter your shipping number into sf-express (seems to take a few days from the time you see a shipping number).

They seem to to be much better about responding to email as well. Use [email protected]


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## Ozhoo (Jan 6, 2017)

westcoaster90 said:


> seems like one heck of a price for the whole build a saw kit! didn't even catch that.



I just checked and it's the same 98usd shipping charge for Canuckistan on a 660 kit... come to the dark side


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## Big_Wood (Jan 6, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> I just checked and it's the same 98usd shipping charge for Canuckistan on a 660 kit... come to the dark side



i said it's a good price, never said i would own one. i got enough OEM saws lol


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## tbohn (Jan 6, 2017)

dswensen said:


> Trying to glean some wisdom here for my build -
> 
> I get the "preheated, oven turned off before case halves went in for 10 minutes" part. But what did you preheat to? 250? 225?
> 
> ...


I preheat the oven to 260f. I leave the clutch side half in the oven while I install the crank in the left side. I then take out the right case halve and put them together.


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## dswensen (Jan 6, 2017)

Perfect - thank you!



tbohn said:


> I preheat the oven to 260f. I leave the clutch side half in the oven while I install the crank in the left side. I then take out the right case halve and put them together.


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## dswensen (Jan 6, 2017)

Where did your shipping number come from? I have heard nothing since I got a PayPal confirmation for payment.



Ozhoo said:


> No shipping confirmations, but you can check the status of your order from the "View Your Order History" page on your account. You can enter your shipping number into sf-express (seems to take a few days from the time you see a shipping number).
> 
> They seem to to be much better about responding to email as well. Use [email protected]


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## Ozhoo (Jan 6, 2017)

Someone out there has crashed hutzl's website... anyone wanna fess up 

When it comes back up, we'll get you figgered out


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## EB Saw (Jan 6, 2017)

Can't wait to see you build it! I ordered one to and it should be here early next week. For questions about the shipping, I to didn't get anything about when or if it shipped just a order number. I emailed Huztl and they got back to very quickly and gave me a tracking number and everything I needed. I am awaiting the arrival and will definitely be posting a build thread. 

I also bought there west coast style clutch cover and a 3/4 wrap handle from them, Ill post some initial impressions when they arrive early next week, stay tuned.


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## tbohn (Jan 6, 2017)

While I am waiting for my 52mm cylinder kit, I installed a few more parts. The oil pick-up hose installed easily after the case halves were assembled. The oiler, bushing and clutch also assembled without issues.
I did have issues with the flywheel. The flywheel looks like a steel hub press fit (?) into the flywheel at high temperature. The hub has the bore for the tapered crankshaft and has the threads for the flywheel removal tool. The hub does not fit the crankshaft well and the removal tool threads are unusable. I am going to ask for a new flywheel.



I also installed the chain adjuster. The gear with screwdriver slot is very tight where it fits into the case. I had to work the gear (rotate) back and forth utility it turned freely.


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## EB Saw (Jan 6, 2017)

I would imagine there to be some quality issues present, though i have read that huztl does have a great respond time and are willing to replace broken parts or damaged parts. It is a bummer that it was shipped like that though.


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## tbohn (Jan 7, 2017)

A few more issues as I go through the parts.
1. Missing 4mm e-clip for brake linkage. I had one of the two required.
2. The throttle linkage is missing.
3. One of the recoil pawls was broken.
4. Missing av buffer plug. One of the two large ones.
Not big deals but it will delay the build. The quality of the parts are equivalent to the Huztl 660 kits I built...not quite OEM but adequate.


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## trboxman (Jan 7, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> Someone out there has crashed hutzl's website... anyone wanna fess up
> 
> When it comes back up, we'll get you figgered out



I heard on the fake news that the Russians hacked them...


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## Walnutlvr (Jan 7, 2017)

dswensen said:


> Trying to glean some wisdom here for my build -
> 
> I get the "preheated, oven turned off before case halves went in for 10 minutes" part. But what did you preheat to? 250? 225?
> 
> ...


I just heated the bearings with a heat gun till they were 200 degrees, measured with laser temp gun, crank was 25 degrees, pushed it together by hand. The already installed seal looked like it had rolled so pushed back straight with tiny flathead screwdriver. You will still have to center the crank in case, did mine with non maring hammer, measured with feeler gage , large socket backing up one bearing.


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## CR888 (Jan 7, 2017)

You know folks hutzl/farmertech offer a 3/4 wrap for this saw & its cheep cheep.....just like the budgy said. Should be around $25-30US.


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## tbohn (Jan 7, 2017)

I compared the 50mm huztl cylinder a piston to an OEM. The chamfer around the ports was more consistent and smoother on the Stihl marked cylinder but the huztl cylinder looked good. The Huztl ports were symmetrical. Some of the Huztl ms660 cylinders did not have perfectly symmetric ports until I fixed them. The inlet port looked slightly larger on the OEM.

When I get my 52mm I will clean up any flashing in the ports, smooth out the chamfer and make sure the ports are symmetrical.

The OEM is darker.


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## tbohn (Jan 7, 2017)

Here are some photos of the ports. The first and third photos are the Huztl cylinder.


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## tbohn (Jan 7, 2017)

Here are the transfer ports. They looked like they were the same size. First one is Huztl. The OEM is used.


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## cgraham1 (Jan 7, 2017)

CR888 said:


> You know folks hutzl/farmertech offer a 3/4 wrap for this saw & its cheep cheep.....just like the budgy said. Should be around $25-30US.


I bought one and I like it, especially the $30 price tag. The two holes where it bolts to the tank didn't line up, but ten seconds with a dremel fixed that.


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## cgraham1 (Jan 7, 2017)

There's a local guy on Craigslist who occasionally sells 660s that are 100% AM... for $700 a piece. From the looks of it, he uses a lot of Hutzl parts.


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## weimedog (Jan 7, 2017)

It would amaze me if anyone payed that kind of money for an AM anything. BTW is the Huztl web site down?? Wanted to get a 036 kit, might go back to the "old" way as I did before and just grab a bunch of parts to mix and match into a better than kit saw.


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## Mac&Homelite (Jan 7, 2017)

weimedog said:


> It would amaze me if anyone payed that kind of money for an AM anything. BTW is the Huztl web site down?? Wanted to get a 036 kit, might go back to the "old" way as I did before and just grab a bunch of parts to mix and match into a better thn kit saw.


I too would be surprised if anyone would pay that price for an aftermarket saw. The Hutzl website is down for me also, however the farmertec.com website does work. I think the 036 kits on farmertec's website are slightly different though, the pictures show that they have flip caps instead of the screw on ones like on hutzl's. Not sure if anything else is different, but that is what I saw so far.


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## weimedog (Jan 7, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I compared the 50mm huztl cylinder a piston to an OEM. The chamfer around the ports was more consistent and smoother on the Stihl marked cylinder but the huztl cylinder looked good. The Huztl ports were symmetrical. Some of the Huztl ms660 cylinders did not have perfectly symmetric ports until I fixed them. The inlet port looked slightly larger on the OEM.
> 
> When I get my 52mm I will clean up any flashing in the ports, smooth out the chamfer and make sure the ports are symmetrical.
> 
> The OEM is darker.




See and I thought those off center intake ports were just machining errors...now I see they were just copying OEM!  Hoping they UN hack (Must be the damn Russians again!) their website, want to get a 036 kit to mess with. I am old OEM one so maybe instead I'll start there.


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## weimedog (Jan 7, 2017)

Mac&Homelite said:


> I too would be surprised if anyone would pay that price for an aftermarket saw. The Hutzl website is down for me also, however the farmertec.com website does work. I think the 036 kits on farmertec's website are slightly different though, the pictures show that they have flip caps instead of the screw on ones like on hutzl's. Not sure if anything else is different, but that is what I saw so far.


It worked, got one off farmertec's website....this will be the first for me!


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## tbohn (Jan 8, 2017)

I did some measurements on the Huztl and OEM port timing. I don't have a timing wheel yet so I measured the distances from the squish band on the top of the cylinder and converted to degrees. Here is what I measured.

Huztl
Exhaust open = 98 degrees
Transfer open = 117 degrees
Blowdown = 19 degrees
The squish on the 50 mm cylinder that came with the kit was over 0.038" without base gasket.

OEM
Exhaust open = 100 degrees
Transfer open = 116 degrees
Blowdown = 16 degrees
The measurement from the cylinder base to the squish band on the OEM was 0.018" shorter than the Huztl cylinder. This should mean the squish of the OEM would be 0.018" less than Huztl.


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## tbohn (Jan 10, 2017)

tbohn said:


> A few more issues as I go through the parts.
> 1. Missing 4mm e-clip for brake linkage. I had one of the two required.
> 2. The throttle linkage is missing.
> 3. One of the recoil pawls was broken.
> ...


The clutch drum is too big. I think it is from a ms660. Huztl is sending replacements and I sent them photos. Sending photos seems to be required for all claims.
If you don't have patience to wait 3 weeks for replacement parts, working on these kits could be very frustrating! I have a toasted Echo 600P to play with until the replacement parts arrive.


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## tbohn (Jan 10, 2017)

tbohn said:


> The clutch drum is too big. I think it is from a ms660. Huztl is sending replacements and I sent them photos. Sending photos seems to be required for all claims.
> If you don't have patience to wait 3 weeks for replacement parts, working on these kits could be very frustrating! I have a toasted Echo 600P to play with until the replacement parts arrive.


I was wrong. It came with the correct clutch drum it just fits too tight.


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## weimedog (Jan 11, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I did some measurements on the Huztl and OEM port timing. I don't have a timing wheel yet so I measured the distances from the squish band on the top of the cylinder and converted to degrees. Here is what I measured.
> 
> Huztl
> Exhaust open = 98 degrees
> ...




If those are accurate numbers, they should run pretty well! DO they also have a "BB" concept for the 044's? A 52mm top end?


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## tbohn (Jan 11, 2017)

weimedog said:


> If those are accurate numbers, they should run pretty well! DO they also have a "BB" concept for the 044's? A 52mm top end?


Yes, they do have a 52mm. I am waiting for one to arrive to finish the kit (along with the missing peices).


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## tbohn (Jan 11, 2017)

weimedog said:


> If those are accurate numbers, they should run pretty well! DO they also have a "BB" concept for the 044's? A 52mm top end?


The degree numbers are probably +/- 1.5 degrees based on how accurate I measured the distances from the squish band. I expect my 52mm cylinder any day now. I will measure it's port timing is too.


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## dswensen (Jan 12, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I preheat the oven to 260f. I leave the clutch side half in the oven while I install the crank in the left side. I then take out the right case halve and put them together.



I got my kit today - everything looks great. I think it's all there, but I will find out as I go.

I am working on getting all the parts set up to put the crank in and the crankcase halves together.

Questions:

I am concerned about having enough time to work with the crank and both halves before the crank warms up too much. I don't think I want to apply gasket sealer and the gasket before I heat the bearing - might burn the gasket or the sealer. I can save some time by not using gasket sealer. *Did any of you assemblers not use gasket sealer (like Motoseal) on the halves? Just the bare gasket?
*
I am also concerned about overheating the halves with the heat gun or the oven. I read that the bearing need to be heated to 250-ish degrees (I have a laser thermometer), but *how sensitive are the pre-installed oil seals to this heat?*

Thanks in advance


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## tbohn (Jan 12, 2017)

dswensen said:


> I got my kit today - everything looks great. I think it's all there, but I will find out as I go.
> 
> I am working on getting all the parts set up to put the crank in and the crankcase halves together.
> 
> ...


This works for me.
I take the left side out of a preheated oven, install the frozen crank, and apply motoseal, then the gasket. Then I apply motoseal to the gasket and assemble the right case half. I rotate the crank as it goes through the pre-installed oil seals. I've done several this way and have not had issues so far. 
Most suggest removing the seals first to avoid pinching them. It is also better to check for bearing stress without the seals in place. I knock the crank back and forth a couple of times and then center between the bearings. The crank usually spins easier after doing this.


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## dswensen (Jan 12, 2017)

tbohn said:


> This works for me.
> I take the left side out of a preheated oven, install the frozen crank, and apply motoseal, then the gasket. Then I apply motoseal to the gasket and assemble the right case half. I rotate the crank as it goes through the pre-installed oil seals. I've done several this way and have not had issues so far.
> Most suggest removing the seals first to avoid pinching them. It is also better to check for bearing stress without the seals in place. I knock the crank back and forth a couple of times and then center between the bearings. The crank usually spins easier after doing this.



How do you get the seals out without damaging them?

Also, how much time do you take from "crank out of the freezer" to "completing the assembling of the second case half"?


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## tbohn (Jan 12, 2017)

dswensen said:


> How do you get the seals out without damaging them?
> 
> Also, how much time do you take from "crank out of the freezer" to "completing the assembling of the second case half"?


I think you should put new seal in place once you take them out. That's why I leave them in place.
I leave the right half in the oven when I install the crank in the left half. Then take the right half out after installing the gasket and applying a light coating of motoseal 1 to the gasket. It takes a few minutes to complete the whole process.


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## Bedford T (Jan 13, 2017)

Can these 440 threads be combined?


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## tbohn (Jan 13, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Can these 440 threads be combined?


That would make sense. Anyone know how to merge them?


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## EB Saw (Jan 13, 2017)

I would have but have no clue how. Anyone?


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## Bedford T (Jan 13, 2017)

You are the OP so the guy with the name on the thread likely has to ask. If you write it out. Please combine this thread with blah blah. I will send them a message or you can and we can find out if they will/can do it.

I don't want to choose where to post or post my own. That will be no fun long term. It does not matter who's names on the thread. Zero.


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## Bedford T (Jan 13, 2017)

I sent a message and asked if you guys wanted could it be combined


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## tbohn (Jan 15, 2017)

Does someone have the piston connector rod length for a 440?


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## Bedford T (Jan 15, 2017)

I don't have one or those numbers. 

I do have something to add. I think your thread may end up more as a build thread that turns out to be more helpful to the guy not interested in performance and all the porting so it might not be so bad. If you can make a title change that might help, if you think there is any change you would make that would indicate that. I don't think i will have my kit until they come back. And several others will have them too.


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## EB Saw (Jan 15, 2017)

Bedford i think you are right, i never intended to have my thread go the way its going it just evolved into that. I will definitely be posting some quality inspections on the parts these upcoming days.


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## Bedford T (Jan 15, 2017)

EB Saw said:


> Bedford i think you are right, i never intended to have my thread go the way its going it just evolved into that. I will definitely be posting some quality inspections on the parts these upcoming days.


You have done nothing wrong. This is the whole idea. You take this kit and create. I was an observer and noticed your thread becoming technical in nature. Not one thing wrong with that. 

You showed us the spring, I don't see how you could do more. You are doing great. That other forum is more performance. I posted over the the other day and bam they showed me my error.

We all want to know more. With the new kits building them and reporting on them also helps the next builder.

Now we have an interesting thread on porting. You were quick too. All good. But report what you can.


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## weimedog (Jan 15, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I think you should put new seal in place once you take them out. That's why I leave them in place.
> I leave the right half in the oven when I install the crank in the left half. Then take the right half out after installing the gasket and applying a light coating of motoseal 1 to the gasket. It takes a few minutes to complete the whole process.


 Seals are cheap...I've been successful with both approaches on the ms660's. ( leaving them in as well as replacing them ) i've moved on to taking out the am seals and putting in oem seals as the modus operandi now on saws that count. Mine? Most were put together with cases & bearing at around 200 degrees ferienhieght and chilled cranks. With the addition of three bond 1184. Also I was able to get the crank to poke through the preinstalled seals..oiled. And with the help of a press along with sockets was able to squeeze those cases together. Very little pressure was required. But...still think for most popping out the seals and putting cases together, then installing Oem seals is the best way. Also...with a good case gasket and good set of cases you should not need the extra step I take with 1184.


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## dswensen (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks to the guys here - I got my cases together. I used the oven at 230 for 10 minutes on the cases and froze the crank overnight (sealed in a ziplock bag AFTER oiling the big end bearing to (hopefully) prevent moisture)

The flywheel side case accepted the crank with a push of the hand, but I had to use the case bolts to draw the clutch side in and together. I Moto-sealed both sides of the gasket prior to starting to minimize the time that the cases and crank were temperature equalizing. 



weimedog said:


> Seals are cheap...I've been successful with both approaches on the ms660's. ( leaving them in as well as replacing them ) i've moved on to taking out the am seals and putting in oem seals as the modus operandi now on saws that count. Mine? Most were put together with cases & bearing at around 200 degrees ferienhieght and chilled cranks. With the addition of three bond 1184. Also I was able to get the crank to poke through the preinstalled seals..oiled. And with the help of a press along with sockets was able to squeeze those cases together. Very little pressure was required. But...still think for most popping out the seals and putting cases together, then installing Oem seals is the best way. Also...with a good case gasket and good set of cases you should not need the extra step I take with 1184.


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## EB Saw (Jan 16, 2017)

Nice job, that is basically what i did, except i never used any sort of sealant on the case gasket, i just used the gasket that came in the kit, i am not proud of doing that but for the spirit of the build, i wanted to keep it all stock and see what happens. Worst case i split them and get an OEM gasket and use some moto seal.


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## Bedford T (Jan 16, 2017)

No one has had trouble with cases leaking...yet


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## Bedford T (Jan 17, 2017)

Darin a moderator just sent links to both guys to merge the threads. I guess instructions were included.


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## Bedford T (Jan 19, 2017)

Did you guys notice that a majority of the binding head screws included in the kit lacked the serrates under the head. That's particularly troubling on the 5x20 that holds much of the saw together including the case.

I got an email about the brake tension spring and the linkage. He said that's what everyone was using. I think he sits in a office and people don't tell him what is going on.

I wrote him back and took my unassembled saw laid the spring in every position and sent detailed photos then included photos of the spring installed in the correct direction and one of it in an incorrect position and put the cover on it so he could see that no way in he double hockey sticks are those springs and levers acceptable or even useful.

And now I find these binding heads half done.

But on a positive note the jug was smooth as a babies behind, perfect finish. Better than the 119$ level jug I got for my 660 after a problem last month.


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## Bedford T (Jan 20, 2017)

The chain brake fasico is a mistake and they regret it. it was one big FU and it will be fixed.

so while i had their attention i opened up the door on the change to binding head screws. more on that when they get back in office. i was surprised to get an answer.

I was reminded that on those screws you need to add extra loctite to be sure you dont need to carry extra screws as they will shake loose.


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## dswensen (Jan 20, 2017)

Mine is together and, after waiting for a throttle rod and a replacement carb that was delivered yesterday, I am happy to report that she fired up on the fourth pull last night. Tuned her a bit, and the throttle response is excellent. Oiler works pretty well for the 25 inch bar I put on her.

I'm pretty happy.

I have a new chain adjuster set-up on my bench to install this weekend, and I am still waiting on the delivery of an OEM replacement for the chain brake tension spring.

I am toying with the idea of a 660 kit ........

One question. On the 660 thread, they are talking about the heat reflecting foil that OEM says should go under the muffler. We know our kits didn't have the foil. Are any of you builders concerned? Did you install heat protection of some kind under the muffler?


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## Bedford T (Jan 20, 2017)

Davhul just posted a brilliant alternative in the 660 thread. We both were early adopters. I feel protection is in order and it's not included on the 440 or 660. I bought foil for mine. I think depending on the material cost I will use Dave's idea seems more durable. I don't work with headers so I would need to be able to buy 10$ worth to use it. Most guys work on cars I dont

I am not sure if it comes on saws under that size would need to check. On smaller saws if you modded the muffler it would seem important as the heat would be greater since it's not diffused. I am not an engineer so on that portion I might be off.


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## Bedford T (Jan 20, 2017)

for those of you lurking and wondering what the kits are like


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## tbohn (Jan 20, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> for those of you lurking and wondering what the kits are like



Nice video. 
Looks like your missing the throttle linkage wire too. Still waiting for mine. My kit didn't have the blank emblem for the top cover.


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## tbohn (Jan 24, 2017)

I received my 52mm cylinder yesterday. I ordered it from Huztl ebay 12/27/16 for $27.00 shipped. There are absolutely no marking on the cylinder anywhere.

The cylinder looks very good. It does not have any machined areas except the bore, sparkplug and decomp holes unlike all of the other huztl cylinders I have purchased (about 15). It does have a noticeable machine mark in the bore between the upper and lower transfer ports. It is perpendicular to the bore and I can feel it with my fingernail. There is also a small amount of porosity in the bore finish in one small area but I think it is below the ring travel. I am going to clean the ports up some. They have a little casting roughness at the port openings that should clean up easily. Some of the port edges looked like they could use a little more chamfering. 
The base of the cylinder is very narrow on the sides of the bore on the 52mm. Hopefully this won't create any sealing issues.
I should have time to assemble tonight. I will delete the base gasket if I can. Too bad I don't have the wire throttle linkage to finish it up yet!


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## Bedford T (Jan 24, 2017)

our jugs are different, mine is branded.

I got the case put together, it took about 20 minutes. It was very simple since the seals are not as tight as on the MS660 build kit, or i just got real lucky non rolled or puckered. I was glad of that. Missing a wire too, dang. I went to put the manifold on the cylinder and my clamp is to small. No way to make it work. The smallest buffer just beat my behind, I never got it in and spent a bunch of time on it, i will come back to it. Getting frustrated is not helpful. i will go at it again tomorrow. i wonder if someone close has a clamp. the gasket was better than my ms660 gasket...i thought, it laid better if there is such a thing.

I did a video of the assembly for first timers, its easy peaszy. Remembering my first, it was not easy for me.


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## tbohn (Jan 24, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> our jugs are different, mine is branded.
> 
> I got the case put together, it took about 20 minutes. It was very simple since the seals are not as tight as on the MS660 build kit, or i just got real lucky non rolled or puckered. I was glad of that. Missing a wire too, dang. I went to put the manifold on the cylinder and my clamp is to small. No way to make it work. The smallest buffer just beat my behind, I never got it in and spent a bunch of time on it, i will come back to it. Getting frustrated is not helpful. i will go at it again tomorrow. i wonder if someone close has a clamp. the gasket was better than my ms660 gasket...i thought, it laid better if there is such a thing.
> 
> I did a video of the assembly for first timers, its easy peaszy. Remembering my first, it was not easy for me.



Where did you get the 52mm cylinder? After looking at mine in more detail it is very nicely finished. I just finished installing it. It would not work without the base gasket. The piston contacted the top of the cylinder so I used the base gasket.
The squish band is not shaped correctly. The outer diameter of the squish band is 0.038". About 1/4 inch in from the bore diameter the squish is only 0.024". We shall see how it runs.
I thought my carb boot clamp was too small also but I did get it on. I got the boot on then slipped the clamp over afterwards. It seems like the rubber on the 440 kit is more flexible than on my 660 kits. The clamp is beefier than the 660 kit clamp.

Waiting for the missing throttle linkage...


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## shorthunter (Jan 24, 2017)

I am curious, can anyone provide an assembled powerhead weight (empty)?


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## Bedford T (Jan 25, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Where did you get the 52mm cylinder? After looking at mine in more detail it is very nicely finished. I just finished installing it. It would not work without the base gasket. The piston contacted the top of the cylinder so I used the base gasket.
> The squish band is not shaped correctly. The outer diameter of the squish band is 0.038". About 1/4 inch in from the bore diameter the squish is only 0.024". We shall see how it runs.
> I thought my carb boot clamp was too small also but I did get it on. I got the boot on then slipped the clamp over afterwards. It seems like the rubber on the 440 kit is more flexible than on my 660 kits. The clamp is beefier than the 660 kit clamp.
> 
> Waiting for the missing throttle linkage...


I have what they put in the box on the 52mm. My clamp was misshapen and I could not make it work because it was just to tight would have cut the rubber over time. You know how this works. The worker puts what's there in the box to ship it. Most of the time it's right. I wonder if the rings are correct size better check that too. This is going be a keeper.

Did you order your wire from stihl or did you ask Huztl to send you one? They said they would send the correct spring and I asked if they would do that first thing when they got started back up.

I may go with a Stihl clamp to move along I been tied up this morning am going to call around now, will ask about wire. Putting it together won't take long.

How did you get the small rubber buffer in the case?


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## tbohn (Jan 25, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I have what they put in the box on the 52mm. My clamp was misshapen and I could not make it work because it was just to tight would have cut the rubber over time. You know how this works. The worker puts what's there in the box to ship it. Most of the time it's right. I wonder if the rings are correct size better check that too. This is going be a keeper.
> 
> Did you order your wire from stihl or did you ask Huztl to send you one? They said they would send the correct spring and I asked if they would do that first thing when they got started back up.
> 
> ...


My local Stihl dealer did not have the wire in stock so I decided just to wait for Huztl to send me a the linkage and a couple of other missing parts. I am also waiting for a broken pawl on the recoil when the kit arrived at my house. I notified Huztl about the issues on January 6th and after a couple of email correspondences, they agreed to ship the parts. I expect them to arrive anytime now...

I worked the small buffer into it's hole with a small flat blade screwdriver. I have everything complete now except the final installation of the carb/filter assembly and the recoil.


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## Ozhoo (Jan 25, 2017)

shorthunter said:


> I am curious, can anyone provide an assembled powerhead weight (empty)?



Same as the real thing. Here's one posing for it's first picture...dry ph weight


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## Bedford T (Jan 25, 2017)

My local dealer had the rod in stock for 4.99$. the tension spring he has to order for 16.99$ and the manifold clip @ 4.49$. I am going to get the tank protector that fits under the handle for 10.20$ he just placed an order this morning so I gotta wait. Gonna keep calling might find one close by. Price should be close.


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## Bedford T (Jan 25, 2017)

I found a clip I will p/u tomorrow pm. So it will be getty up after the brake can be last


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## Bedford T (Jan 25, 2017)

i just read the manual and it says

"On clamps with spacer sleeve,
tighten the screw until the gap
between the two ends of the clamp
is 5 to 6 mm (0.17 to 0,24 in)."

i was able to re-adjust my clip and got it corrected. but it is so small it closes, but will not close enough. i guess the specs are to give you enough meat so it does not vibrate lose and you end up with an air leak. the gap in my photo is 15mm.


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## blsnelling (Jan 25, 2017)

You can make your own aluminum foil heat reflector. This tape is real aluminum and is available at Lowes.


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## Bedford T (Jan 25, 2017)

Good info


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## Bedford T (Jan 26, 2017)

Anybody have issues with the oiler? Worm gear?

I have the sleeve greased and installed. I installed and reinstalled the oil pump several times trying to get the worm in place. 

Finally pump first as normal and played with worm until it caught.

It's tight as dicks hat band. I looked closely to see if the threads were off but it seems pump it not properly centered around crank and that would bind up the worm. Screws are in but very tight. I wonder if that little pipe is whacked out 

I have walked away from it for now


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## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2017)

Could be the worm gear, the pump body, or even the machining/holes in the crankcase. You would likely need an OEM pump and worm gear to determine this.


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## Bedford T (Jan 26, 2017)

I have no doubt. I wondered if anyone else faced this and if so those type things would make more sense. I will take another look in morning. Fresh eyes. 

I did a pressure vac test and its sealed. One step forward one back


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## blsnelling (Jan 26, 2017)

Hopefully it's something simple like a defective worm gear.


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## Bedford T (Jan 26, 2017)

10-4. Everything was smooth, would be no fun if it was too easy.


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## tbohn (Jan 26, 2017)

My oiler went together okay. I did struggle with getting the drum down in place. The case fitment to the drum is very tight. I do have a spot during rotation of the drum where something is catching. It's probably the worm gear arm hitting the case but I have checked that a couple of times without the drum in place.

I received a package from Huztl today. Hopefully it's the missing parts and I can finish the build.


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## Bedford T (Jan 26, 2017)

Do you suspect the drum out of round? Good to hear your placement was OK. I went to pickup my throttle wire today and the guy had the wrong throttle wire for me. But the clamp was at the other dealer. Hope your parts are there.


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## dswensen (Jan 26, 2017)

I took quite a bit of time getting my oil pump to fit properly. A fair amount of futzing with the tube that goes from the pump to the hole in the crankcase. The tube had to go in and just about bottom-out in the machined hole in the crank case before I could get it all to fit and work together. You might check to see if that tube on yours is all the way seated.

The pump oils the 25" bar I put on it quite well.




Bedford T said:


> Anybody have issues with the oiler? Worm gear?
> 
> I have the sleeve greased and installed. I installed and reinstalled the oil pump several times trying to get the worm in place.
> 
> ...


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## Bedford T (Jan 26, 2017)

That is exactly what I felt like it was that little arm. I will fix that problem. The way the pump body was off center and there is that arm...Very suspicious indeed.


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## Bedford T (Jan 26, 2017)

I did a quick pressure test on the fuel tank and she held. But the vacuum held too! I waited full minute. So the vents not working.


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## davhul (Jan 26, 2017)

Good to know. Most don't do that test. 
I didn't on the any of the 660's.


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## Bedford T (Jan 27, 2017)

Testing removes doubt and saves time and money. I never got the impact, do now.


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## Bedford T (Jan 27, 2017)

The end of the metal arm needs to be removed back to the first indentation where it turns bulbous and has o ring behind it. That's enough if you have the problem of a tight fit it makes the connection correctly and seats correctly around the crankshaft


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## Bedford T (Jan 28, 2017)

I got the video finished on the MS440 cylinder placement for all of the first timers. It should be easy enough to follow. I had nothing this focused available to me. I hope it helps someone.


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## Ozhoo (Jan 28, 2017)

Most folks would highly recommend clipping those circlips to reduce the odds of them breaking off and trashing the cylinder.
Here's clipped vs unclipped on a farmertech 440


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## EB Saw (Jan 28, 2017)

I just got my Meteor piston kit in the mail, the piston looked great, and for only 40 off ebay not a bad deal, I mainly wanted to change over to meteor for better quality rings and the retaining clips from Huztl are crap and not even spring steel they just bend and stay bent, The meteor clips are great quality and hold tight in the groove. I have about 3 tanks and a days worth of cutting on the ms 440 and am quite happy, everything stayed togeather and seemed to work.


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## blsnelling (Jan 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I got the video finished on the MS440 cylinder placement for all of the first timers. It should be easy enough to follow. I had nothing this focused available to me. I hope it helps someone.



No offense intended, but I HIGHLY recommend against using a grinder of any kind to trim the case gasket. All you want to do is take a razor blade and cut them off flush.

I'll second what was already said about the circlips. It's only a matter of time until one of those ears breaks off and trashes your topend. I strongly recommend using OEM circlips. You'll want to make sure they're the same diameter wire first though.


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## Bedford T (Jan 28, 2017)

i know guys that are gold level and they have no issue with the tails. everything can fail. your point is well taken and should be considered by anyone when they are planning their build. Its obvious i was simply showing how to do it. the forum is a great place to examine the choices available, with a kit you have choices.

i thank you guys for looking at the video especially since you are not first timers. opinions vary and the suggestion on the handles of the clips and the oem clips is very valuable. I was the one trimming those tabs and if that is the material they are going to make those gaskets out of you are not going to just cut it off without taking a huge chance on cutting the magnesium surface with that razor blade, it was tuff as nails. I made a note in the description before coming into the thread just as a caution. because both ways you have to be very careful with a resistant material. i commented in one video about the material. i thought it was amazing until those blame tabs had to be removed.

everybody's a critic, so no offense taken. i woulda paid to see that video before i did my first one.


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## Bedford T (Jan 28, 2017)

Before, i examined every choice, i read every post, i participated. so should every kit builder. take nothing for granted. weigh every option. take a measured approach. every problem is an opportunity to learn and share.


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## grizz55chev (Jan 29, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> i know guys that are gold level and they have no issue with the tails. everything can fail. your point is well taken and should be considered by anyone when they are planning their build. Its obvious i was simply showing how to do it. the forum is a great place to examine the choices available, with a kit you have choices.
> 
> i thank you guys for looking at the video especially since you are not first timers. opinions vary and the suggestion on the handles of the clips and the oem clips is very valuable. I was the one trimming those tabs and if that is the material they are going to make those gaskets out of you are not going to just cut it off without taking a huge chance on cutting the magnesium surface with that razor blade, it was tuff as nails. I made a note in the description before coming into the thread just as a caution. because both ways you have to be very careful with a resistant material. i commented in one video about the material. i thought it was amazing until those blame tabs had to be removed.
> 
> everybody's a critic, so no offense taken. i woulda paid to see that video before i did my first one.


Your gold level guys don't know jack about those "ears " on aftermarket circlips, they fail, ask me how I know. Not pretty when it happens, just sayin.


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## davhul (Jan 29, 2017)

I wish I could comment on the clips but I've only used them a few times and that was on the 660. Their not spring steel so that could be a problem but they were tight. I'll see how those do. Are the 440 clips same as the 660 clips?


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## Bedford T (Jan 29, 2017)

I Was simply saying there were different way knowledgeable people doing it and lots of people have built them with exactly what was supplied in the kit. Gee grizzly it's terrible you had a problem. Not everyone has. In fact I think this circlip drama here is a new concern. So Then everyone on the planet should buy some OEM circlips. Add that to the list of things you buy when you are at the Stihl store.

These are the same circlips in the 660 kits.


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## grizz55chev (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I Was simply saying there were different way knowledgeable people doing it and lots of people have built them with exactly what was supplied in the kit. Gee grizzly it's terrible you had a problem. Not everyone has. In fact I think this circlip drama here is a new concern. So Then everyone on the planet should buy some OEM circlips. Add that to the list of things you buy when you are at the Stihl store.
> 
> These are the same circlips in the 660 kits.


Just passing on info, you do it how you want, these parts are probably the cheapest replacement parts on the saw and when they fail, it'll ruin your day. Lots, and I mean lots of documented cases of AM circlip failure, do some reading, I'm not the first and certainly not the last to experience this, good luck.


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

tbohn said:


> My oiler went together okay. I did struggle with getting the drum down in place. The case fitment to the drum is very tight. I do have a spot during rotation of the drum where something is catching. It's probably the worm gear arm hitting the case but I have checked that a couple of times without the drum in place.
> 
> I received a package from Huztl today. Hopefully it's the missing parts and I can finish the build.


Well I finished the build a few days ago but have been traveling and busy so I have not been able to work out some issues that I have.
1. The saw dies after about ten seconds and then will not fire again. It is acting it is loading up on fuel since the plug has fuel when I take it out. And it does fire again after sitting. I think I will need to adjust the carb needle some more when I get some time.
2. The choke butterfly plate was catching on the thin metal bracket that holds the carb in place. I adjusted it so it did not interfere with the choke plate.
3. The tank vent didn't vent either direction. I removed the vent and squeezed the little rubber duckbill with a needle nose until I could see an opening on the end. It worked after that.
4. The plug that come with it had a very weak spark. I replaced it with another Farmertec plug that had a much stronger spark.
5. The master control lever is VERY difficult to move from the OFF/Run/Choke positions. The issue is in the small box where the ground wire/spring resides. I applied a little mineral grease and it helped some. Hopefully it isn't conductive!
6. The biggest issue I have with the build is the 52MM Huztl cylinder that I ordered separately off of ebay. The casting looks very good and the cylinder walls are good but the top of cylinder is not right. The top of the cylinder is not machined correctly. The squish is about 0.040 inch around the perimeter of the bore and only 0.025 inch further in from the perimeter. The squish should be flat or lessen toward the perimeter. I have installed over a dozen of the AM cylinders and have never seen one this way. When the saw is running, it has way too much vibration. I suspect this cylinder defect may be the cause of this vibration. The lower end seems very smooth so I do not think the vibration is coming from there. I think I will replace the 52mm cylinder with the 50mm cylinder that came with the kit to see if it runs smoother. I so, I will be asking for a refund or replacement of the 52mm cylinder.

This has been the most problematic Hutzl build so far.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

Didn't you replace the carb with one off Amazon? I could be thinking of someone else. There has to be more than one bad 52mm


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## Ozhoo (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm working on one with a crazy vibration. I've swapped flywheel, crank and cylinder and still have the vibration.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

Did you put a touch of conductive grease in the spark plug cap? That can help


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Didn't you replace the carb with one off Amazon? I could be thinking of someone else. There has to be more than one bad 52mm


No. I'm using the one from the kit.


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Did you put a touch of conductive grease in the spark plug cap? That can help


No, I have not tried that but I did remove the decomp valve and installed the plug that came with the kit just to help isolate the issue.


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> I'm working on one with a crazy vibration. I've swapped flywheel, crank and cylinder and still have the vibration.


I am going to replace the cylinder and see what that does. I don't think it is usable with the amount of vibration it has at just above idle RPM.


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## Ozhoo (Jan 30, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I am going to replace the cylinder and see what that does. I don't think it is usable with the amount of vibration it has at just above idle RPM.



I replaced a farmertech 50mm with an nwp52mm and still have the vibration. I agree, it's unsuable as is. I've run it without a clutch as well and still have the vibs. I'm about to swap parts one at a time with an oem.


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> I replaced a farmertech 50mm with an nwp52mm and still have the vibration. I agree, it's unsuable as is. I've run it without a clutch as well and still have the vibs. I'm about to swap parts one at a time with an oem.


After thinking about it some more, it must be a balance issue on mine since the extreme vibration is only at a certain RPM range.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

This could be from left field but could it be the wrist pin? Mine felt massive. They gotta be strong but could it throw it outta balance?. Have either of you noticed a difference between them


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## dswensen (Jan 30, 2017)

I am at least one that replaced the carb that came with the kit. I have had no carburation problems at all with the replacement. Holds a tune and snappy throttle response. I replaced mine because the kit carb had a choke return spring that was too weak to return the choke plate to "open" reliably.



tbohn said:


> No. I'm using the one from the kit.


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

Your vibration sounds like it's in the rotating assembly. And stiff bushings could add to it. The 660 vibrates more than oem. I guess it's the $12 crank. If I had a oem laying around I would try it and see.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

On the vent. Mine failed the vacuum test and after reading your post I pulled off and separated the lips. I will test it later


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## EB Saw (Jan 30, 2017)

After finally getting to install my meteor piston I now realize that the meteor piston is about 37 thousands taller causing my cylinder to not work! I was already to bolt it on and went to turn the flywheel and it stops at the top of the cylinder, because I decked the cylinder for the stock huztl piston it is now to low to work with the meteor piston. I can either shave the piston or get a new cylinder or stack base gaskets, what do you guys think?


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

Eb What else can you do but replace the cylinder? Not like it will cost much. That's normal stuff two steps forward one step back.

You could also make a gasket. I don't know if I would want to stack them


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> This could be from left field but could it be the wrist pin? Mine felt massive. They gotta be strong but could it throw it outta balance?. Have either of you noticed a difference between them


You are right about the pin massiveness. I am curious if others are experiencing this level of vibration with these kits.


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## tbohn (Jan 30, 2017)

davhul said:


> Your vibration sounds like it's in the rotating assembly. And stiff bushings could add to it. The 660 vibrates more than oem. I guess it's the $12 crank. If I had a oem laying around I would try it and see.


I do notice vibration on my 660 kits but this is much more than that.


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

I would try the oem low compression gasket and see. It's 1mm I believe the part # is 1128 029 2302


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## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I Was simply saying there were different way knowledgeable people doing it and lots of people have built them with exactly what was supplied in the kit. Gee grizzly it's terrible you had a problem. Not everyone has. In fact I think this circlip drama here is a new concern. So Then everyone on the planet should buy some OEM circlips. Add that to the list of things you buy when you are at the Stihl store.
> 
> These are the same circlips in the 660 kits.


Stick around long enough and you'll also gain the experience and knowledge of which we speak. You seem very stuck in your preconceived ideas and very resistant to input from those with much more experience. Additionally, some of your advise it's simply erroneous, and could lead others to make similar mistakes.


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## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2017)

I have stacked multiple OEM Stihl gaskets with no issues. Pretty amazing that they got the crown height of that far!


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## Ozhoo (Jan 30, 2017)

davhul said:


> Your vibration sounds like it's in the rotating assembly. And stiff bushings could add to it. The 660 vibrates more than oem. I guess it's the $12 crank. If I had a oem laying around I would try it and see.



I'm about to throw this one down the sippy hole. AV Mounts are the only thing left to swap out. The upper av mount is stiffer than a honeymoon prick.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> Stick around long enough and you'll also gain the experience and knowledge of which we speak. You seem very stuck in your preconceived ideas and very resistant to input from those with much more experience. Additionally, some of your advise it's simply erroneous, and could lead others to make similar mistakes.


Nothing wrong with what I said. I see a different side than you. 

How would you know what my preconceived ideas are? They are infact few and far between.


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## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Nothing wrong with what I said.


You make my point.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> You make my point.



quoting part of my statement is not helpful. is the thread going to turn into to this?


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## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> quoting part of my statement is not helpful. is the thread going to turn into to this?


It doesn't have to.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

does anyone have access to a stihl oem wrist pin. i wonder what the weight difference is with the farmertec.


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

Yep. It maybe tonight before I can get to weigh it.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I can tell from here the one in the kit is to heavy and that would affect the balance. No need to weight it. Wow.


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## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2017)

The wrist pin isn't the problem. A bigger and heavier BB piston doesn't cause this problem, so neither will a slightly heavier wrist pin. I suspect the problem is an out of phase crank.


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

I can tell you oem is thinner and lighter. That's not the vibration problem I've put 460 topends on 440's and w/ no Ill effects. That's 2mm larger piston. A 460 BB on a on a 440 maybe.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I don't doubt either. It would be worth a try since we can't fix the crank.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I would try one on mine but I am waiting on parts.


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## blsnelling (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> It would be worth a try since we can't fix the crank.


Again, you make my point. Chainsaws are not balanced in the manner you suggest.


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## Definitive Dave (Jan 30, 2017)

OEM Stihl pin is also very slightly tapered at the ends to push the circlips down in the groove.
It is lighter than Farmertec, NWP and Meteor pins, a difference of grams not ounces 
Is the flywheel set perfectly square on the tapered crankshaft?
This probably wouldn't happen on this model but I have seen a poorly cast captured key cause the flywheel to be seated improperly, vibrated like mad for a second or so till it sheared.
My .02 is on a bad flywheel or crank


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> Again, you make my point. Chainsaws are not balanced in the manner you suggest.


We are not talking OEM crank. The aftermarket crank could have some questionable bearings, OK likely, and it cause an unexpected issue that all your experience would miss.

You really should be using and holding the same parts as the people you are now preaching too.

We need to watch for differences


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

The cranks are pretty complex. They need to be true and perfectly aligned when pressed together. This may need to be looked into farther if this is a problem.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I second that. The second they get their feet on the ground I will talk to my contact. Let's give them 24 hrs. He pledged to listen.

I have learned to look for diffences and suspect them first. This must be a larger problem that effects many people as it would.


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## grizz55chev (Jan 30, 2017)

When it comes to advice, you need to decide why that advise is being given. There are a lot of caring and knowledgeable people on this web site who share their ideas and experience freely without asking for anything in return other than an acknowledgment of that with a thank you. That's what drew me to this website and that's what keeps me here, it took me over 2 years before I felt enough confidence to offer advice from any of my adventures in chainsaw repair. I do chainsaws now cause I heat with wood and I'm retired after a career in construction, in the process I contracted the dreaded CAD and now my garage-shop is overflowing with too many chainsaws to count, I'd estimate at least 30. With help from the guys on AS most of them are runners or on their way to being a runner and I take in saws from friends to repair, rarely for money, usually a 12 pack of my favorite beer and pay for parts will suffice. Along the way I've made a few friends and that part was completely unexpected but welcome. My point is there is a wealth of knowledge here to be shared if you're willing to do the research, these things called chainsaws get under your skin so be careful and make some friends along the way.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I am not paid. I asked for one thing and got something better, access. If you think that's not an asset oh well. 

I thought the kits were the greatest before you ever heard of them. Still do.

That notice on their website we are on vacation. Part of my prize. Did that help you?


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I will point out the guys pointing out this issue, say, that they have swapped out crank, cylinder, flywheel?

It's so easy to get drawn away from the problem


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## grizz55chev (Jan 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I am not paid. I asked for one thing and got something better, access. If you think that's not an asset oh well.
> 
> I thought the kits were the greatest before you ever heard of them. Still do.
> 
> That notice on their website we are on vacation. Part of my prize. Did that help you?


I know not where you come from, don't know if its me or you but you seem to not like to be second guessed. i would bet that Brad and Dave have built more saws in the last month than you have in your life so their experience is invaluable. We all make mistakes, these guys have taken a lot of the guess work out of the process and for that I thank them.


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## Bedford T (Jan 30, 2017)

I am not resisting their experience or minimizing it. I made the point that the kit is a different quailty. The parts a copies and that makes a huge difference that must be acknowledged. I just pointed out that the guys troubleshooting this problem eliminated several of the components these guys raised. They exchanged the crank, the flywheel.


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

dswensen said:


> I am at least one that replaced the carb that came with the kit. I have had no carburation problems at all with the replacement. Holds a tune and snappy throttle response. I replaced mine because the kit carb had a choke return spring that was too weak to return the choke plate to "open" reliably.



Does your saw seem to have excessive vibration? I'm not sure if anyone else has one running


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## dswensen (Jan 30, 2017)

No sir. Mine runs great. I haven't had a chance to put it in wood yet, but it starts, idles and revs just like it should 



davhul said:


> Does your saw seem to have excessive vibration? I'm not sure if anyone else has one running


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## davhul (Jan 30, 2017)

Not saying cranks are the problem but this is interesting If you can understand the guy, He knows his cranks. It's a scooter crank but same idea.


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## EB Saw (Jan 31, 2017)

I have been able to get a days worth of cutting on mine, I did notice just with t he power head and no bar and chain running it, there was a noticeable vibration but would smooth out higher in the rpms, when you put the bar and chain on it diminishes even more, I only have experience with a ms 441 and the antivibe on that saw is amazing, probably to good, so coming from that, the saw vibrated a lot, but nothing I can't get used to


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## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

When you are trying to help, and folks kinda gang up on ya and say that just not the way it works and ya know in your heart that something is just not right. I am pointing this out only to help those of us with the fat pins. It could be, not that it is.

Here is an article where the wrist pin is involved in balancing by removing grams not ounces from its weight. So you knowlegable guys don't know all you could know either

So I guess one could say I did know what I was talking about and it's at least possible that a big fat wrist pin could alter the balance same as a lighter one could.

http://www.dragonfly75.com/motorbike/vibes.html


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## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> The wrist pin isn't the problem. A bigger and heavier BB piston doesn't cause this problem, so neither will a slightly heavier wrist pin. I suspect the problem is an out of phase crank.



here is an article that suggests the wrist pin in fact can and does matter and a real fat wrist pin like the ones that come in this kit could possibly impact the vibration. so your dismissive remarks are incorrect, this is not unknown to people who do more than remove and replace oem parts. i guess this indicates your post was wrong about wrist pins and balance.

http://www.dragonfly75.com/motorbike/vibes.html


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## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

Definitive Dave said:


> OEM Stihl pin is also very slightly tapered at the ends to push the circlips down in the groove.
> It is lighter than Farmertec, NWP and Meteor pins, a difference of grams not ounces
> Is the flywheel set perfectly square on the tapered crankshaft?
> This probably wouldn't happen on this model but I have seen a poorly cast captured key cause the flywheel to be seated improperly, vibrated like mad for a second or so till it sheared.
> My .02 is on a bad flywheel or crank




here you go, grams do matter
http://www.dragonfly75.com/motorbike/vibes.html


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

Go ahead, swap out your wrist pin, even install one made of titanium if you want, and then report back.

When you're done with that, explain to us how Stihl uses the same saw for both the MS650 and MS660.

How about the Dolmar 6400, 7300, and 7900. Again, these saws are identical with the exception of a huge variance in topend size.

How about a Stihl 064 with an 066 topend? Or, how about my 440 with a 460 topend turning nearly 16,000 RPMs?

Get the point.yet, or do you need more? Let me guess....


----------



## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

I got the point I was hoping you would. The whole point has been made. I can not make it any clearer. From the start I said this is from left field, seeking possibilities that were in our control. Actual possibilities. It's not even certain it's a wide spread issue. I took exception to you saying it had no bearing in the scope of vibration.

If we focus on the problem everybody wins. I said your suggestions were possible you did not afford me the same courtesy. I supplied an article that was inclusive of the pin.


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## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> Go ahead, swap out your wrist pin, even install one made of titanium if you want, and then report back.
> 
> When you're done with that, explain to us how Stihl uses the same saw for both the MS650 and MS660.
> 
> ...


I answered this above


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

Bedford T, I don't know what you're deal is, but you're out of your element. You knew nothing about saws a VERY short time ago. You couldn't even get your own saws running. Many of us tried to help you then, and met the same resistance we are here and now. You come in here acting like no one else knows what they're talking about. You then think you're ready to start telling others how to build saws, giving erroneous instruction, and refuse to backup when it's pointed out.


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## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

I backed it up. I gave you a link on the wrist pin. I did get the 660 saw running. It was a broken piece of cylinder that caused the problem. I posted all this. You are just looking to cause trouble.

I learned that you in particular are set In His ways and has limited experience with aftermarket parts and you think in terms of OEM parts and the wrist pin is a good example. Or the time you said you did not recommend putting the case in an oven. You are out of your elements in these threads


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 2, 2017)

I wish I was a mod here. lol


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I backed it up. I gave you a link on the wrist pin. I did get the 660 saw running. It was a broken piece of cylinder that caused the problem. I posted all this. You are just looking to cause trouble.
> 
> I learned that you in particular are set In His ways and has limited experience with aftermarket parts and you think in terms of OEM parts and the wrist pin is a good example. Or the time you said you did not recommend putting the case in an oven. *You are out of your elements in these threads*


Really? 

This has NOTHING to do with OEM vs AM in this case, demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about, again. And what do you know about my experience with AM parts anyway. I've been there and done that. Just like others with more experience than yourself, you may come to understand and appreciate why we have the opinions we do. Until then, you need to set back and learn before you start trying to school us.

I'm not trying to cause trouble at all. I'm trying to protect others from your misinformation. You refuse to acknowledge practical experience and knowledge gained through years of working on these things. From the very beginning of your time here, you have been obstinate and resistant to any instruction that even hinted of disagreeing with you.


----------



## EB Saw (Feb 2, 2017)

This is getting to be a heated discussion, the way i see this form is a way to gain information whether it is not exactly accurate is part of the internet, everything said on the internet isn't always true or accurate, how ever forming a reputation and having known knowledge is always a plus when considering suggestions from members, I love how we can get many suggestions, and that is the word i use when i read responses to questions, this is America you do what you want but using the form as a source of information and suggestions is always been a great asset, at least for me


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> ...your dismissive remarks are incorrect... i guess this indicates your post was wrong about wrist pins and balance.


This is why I respond to you like I do. You repeatedly choose to ignore practical experience and years of building these saws, with both AM and OEM parts, and then either flat out tell us we're wrong, or continue to try and lead others in the wrong direction.


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## grizz55chev (Feb 2, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> I wish I was a mod here. lol


Careful what you wish for,


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

How about pie? Apple or cherry would be just fine! Or, how about a mix!


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 2, 2017)

grizz55chev said:


> Careful what you wish for,



Well..........I just wanna be able to drop the ban hammer sometimes. lol


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 2, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> How about pie? Apple or cherry would be just fine! Or, how about a mix!




That looks fabulous.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> Well..........I just wanna be able to drop the ban hammer sometimes. lol


I heard that you already did


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 2, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> I heard that you already did



It's not a part of the job I enjoy, but it is absolutely necessary. One bad apple can indeed spoil the whole bushel.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> It's not a part of the job I enjoy, but it is absolutely necessary. One bad apple can indeed spoil the whole bushel.


I totally understand!


----------



## Bedford T (Feb 2, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> This is why I respond to you like I do. You repeatedly choose to ignore practical experience and years of building these saws, with both AM and OEM parts, and then either flat out tell us we're wrong, or continue to try and lead others in the wrong direction.


I have not ignored you. Your statement is not true.


----------



## Tothemax (Feb 2, 2017)

I put a Hutzl BB kit on my step dads 440. So far so good. I did port and polish it a little along with modding the exhaust. I am curious to see how long it lasts...


----------



## weimedog (Feb 2, 2017)

Any one see if those flywheel run true on the ones that vibrate?


----------



## tbohn (Feb 2, 2017)

weimedog said:


> Any one see if those flywheel run true on the ones that vibrate?


I have not but I do have another to try.


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## davhul (Feb 2, 2017)

If shipping is correct I'll have one in the morning. And I believe I have everything I need to finish it so hopefully that happens. I also have OE clips. If it vibrates I have a OE wrist pin to try. I don't have a OE flywheel or crank to try. Hope it's the flywheel if it does vibrate


----------



## weimedog (Feb 2, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I have not but I do have another to try.


Did a job where the complaint was excessive vibration with a 372XT. ....just before splitting the cases I was just turning it over by hand...wondering if it had bad bearings...noticed the flywheel had a .1" wobble! It was the crank "stub" pressed into the lamb chop a little off. Big vibration. Always look first at the largest spinning mass first on these little buggers...maybe the flywheel is weighted wrong, or like I had...the mounting was off in one of a variety of ways.


----------



## davhul (Feb 2, 2017)

A flywheel not tightened enough to pull it all the way on the taper could cause a problem. There was a problem with the 660 and tightening the nut.


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

davhul said:


> A flywheel not tightened enough to pull it all the way on the taper could cause a problem. There was a problem with the 660 and tightening the nut.


LOL...and some....those nuts will always be a little loose, or is that screws?


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I backed it up. I gave you a link on the wrist pin. I did get the 660 saw running. It was a broken piece of cylinder that caused the problem. I posted all this. You are just looking to cause trouble.
> 
> I learned that you in particular are set In His ways and has limited experience with aftermarket parts and you think in terms of OEM parts and the wrist pin is a good example. Or the time you said you did not recommend putting the case in an oven. You are out of your elements in these threads


Maybe some conductive grease on the spark plug boot would help.


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

grizz55chev said:


> Maybe some conductive grease on the spark plug boot would help.


But would u really see any difference.....is that just a natural twitch? Of course there would be at least one who would argue that grease makes those sparks fly smoother...maybe, maybe that would make that saw vibrate less too...


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 3, 2017)

We have a big group buy going on for these saw kits. Hopefully we will see some interesting threads after they are in our members hands.


----------



## dswensen (Feb 3, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> We have a big group buy going on for these saw kits. Hopefully we will see some interesting threads after they are in our members hands.




If you have recently ordered a Huztl 440 build kit:

When you all get your kits, take a close look at the chain brake main spring. Compare yours to the pictures in these "440 build" threads (problem with some springs is difficult to describe in words). You may need to order a replacement. Also, look for a throttle linkage. It might be missing completely - again you may need to order one. There have been challenges with the installation of the oil pumps - look through the threads for solutions, they are in there.

There are two separate "440 build" threads on this site (so far). They both have good information (and a bit of contention - read over those parts).

I used the "case halves in oven, crank in freezer" method for putting the case together - worked like a charm.

The kit-provided piston pin circlips have been criticized as not being of good quality. I personally replaced the clips from my kit with Stihl 12MM x 1MM clips. Did I NEED to? I don't know, but I feel better about it after replacing them - so it was worth it to me.

Get an illustrated parts list (IPL)! It makes the job much easier. I have one as do many others here; if you need one, let me know through "private message" on this site - send me your e-mail address and I'll send you one in PDF.

Think it through, take it slowly, hang in there and don't give up - the finished product is worth it.


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

Another area to look for vibration IS the clutch, another spinning mass. The clutch drums I've seen on the older series of 660s' were way out. Might want to try a better quality drum that holds things in a more perfect circle... lol, 440's probably twist a little faster AND the mass of the crank being smaller in diameter & lighter, if there was vibration because of the clutch it would be more noticeable than on the bigger saw...a physics thing..


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> We have a big group buy going on for these saw kits. Hopefully we will see some interesting threads after they are in our members hands.


Does that mean a discount?


----------



## dswensen (Feb 3, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> Does that mean a discount?



Uh-oh! I might be talked into another one - or two - or ........


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

Just ONE more for me! My wife has seen enough of these parts "raids" where the mail lady drops an arm full of parts by the front door! I do want to focus on those 036's, one as delivered, one tweaked, and one "OEM" dead saw salvage project....


----------



## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 3, 2017)

dswensen said:


> If you have recently ordered a Huztl 440 build kit:
> 
> When you all get your kits, take a close look at the chain brake main spring. Compare yours to the pictures in these "440 build" threads (problem with some springs is difficult to describe in words). You may need to order a replacement. Also, look for a throttle linkage. It might be missing completely - again you may need to order one. There have been challenges with the installation of the oil pumps - look through the threads for solutions, they are in there.
> 
> ...



For those who just stepped in -- could someone post the links to the other threads. I know we have some forum wizards on here. Thanks in advance for your help.


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## dswensen (Feb 3, 2017)

Here is the other one for 044/440. There is one for MS361, and MS660 too. "Search" will reveal them all.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/huztl-ms-440-initial-impressions-and-build.305102/


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## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> Does that mean a discount?


Maybe coupons for pie?


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

As posted over at the "Other Performance Entertainment forum"......the entire MS660 thread from there wrapped up into one video;


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## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

weimedog said:


> As posted over at the "Other Performance Entertainment forum"......the entire MS660 thread from there wrapped up into one video;



Lol, the comparison video was great. That looked to be about a 1960's model chainsaw!


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## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

grizz55chev said:


> Lol, the comparison video was great. That looked to be about a 1960's model chainsaw!


Hey, they compete too! Probably a clone 070 or 090. With a dull chain, we KNOW how these YouTube comparisons work...


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

I do notice the "right" RPM no load is just under 12K. Have to get the "burble" right for maximum power.


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## Ozhoo (Feb 3, 2017)

That's scratcher chain on the clone 070. Always wondered how it cut/scratched.


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## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

And we have our thread here too....the summary of the Arboristsite MS660 build thread in one video:


----------



## Ozhoo (Feb 3, 2017)

I'm working on a 50mm farmertech now that has the biggest ring of death I've ever seen at 6.5mm 
She'll make a nice pencil holder.


----------



## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> I wish I was a mod here. lol



hey brother you are not a mod here. i don't think the hate you spew in your forum would last very long over here. I know i did not put up with it.

lets touch base on the group buy you are offering. have you made clear to your disciples that its going to be shipped by a slow boat and spend about 45 days days in a salt water environment. that the cost will rise when they replace the cylinder missing cylinder, which is a great idea if you don't like the nice farmertec cylinder that is included, they really stepped up their game. shorty on the other forum showed one of his recent purchases and it was nice. i just thought you should maybe mention this to everyone here and there. you haven't have you?

monkeys are so adorable


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## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> hey brother you are not a mod here. i don't think the hate you spew in your forum would last very long over here. I know i did not put up with it.
> 
> lets touch base on the group buy you are offering. have you made clear to your disciples that its going to be shipped by a slow boat and spend about 45 days days in a salt water environment. that the cost will rise when they replace the cylinder missing cylinder, which is a great idea if you don't like the nice farmertec cylinder that is included, they really stepped up their game. shorty on the other forum showed one of his recent purchases and it was nice. i just thought you should maybe mention this to everyone here and there. you haven't have you?
> 
> monkeys are so adorable


Been following MM for a few years and have not seen this " hate " you speak of. Take your meds or eat a snickers .


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## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> No offense intended, but I HIGHLY recommend against using a grinder of any kind to trim the case gasket. All you want to do is take a razor blade and cut them off flush.
> 
> I'll second what was already said about the circlips. It's only a matter of time until one of those ears breaks off and trashes your topend. I strongly recommend using OEM circlips. You'll want to make sure they're the same diameter wire first though.




lets talk a little about those pesky clips. you have advised without holding one in those stihl hands that an oem should be used. i have said time and time again these kits do not translate well. you are out of your element and have again given bad advice that will cause hardship.

the photo shows that the way the piston is designed when you drop that oem clip in you will not be able to get it back out without damaging the piston. and you run your mouth against me. man i expected better from you. monkey man is a bad influence on you brad. wink wink


(there are fine on the stop side as you can see)


----------



## davhul (Feb 3, 2017)

I'm waiting on my kit. I'll look and see if mine looks like that. If so I Could Dremel that out. But most people don't have one.


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## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

Egos making more work for us little folk


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## EB Saw (Feb 3, 2017)

Sorta off topic but I recently built up the 440 kit and really was impressed with the quality, for how much I paid, and was wondering if building up a 361 kit would be good, I know the crank issues exist but from what I have heard they are slightly rumors and how much could a new crank cost from huztl anyways, I think it might be a good kit, it's hard to justify owning a ms441 and a ms440


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Egos making more work for us little folk


Hello pot, meet the kettle! Do you even realize how childish and ignorant you are, you just started putting these copy saws together last year and now you're an expert on all things 660 or 440? You come on here criticizing guys that have been building saws on an expert level for years, do you even understand how ridiculous your posts have gotten? Stop embarrassing yourself.


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## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

eb i am sure the 361 kit would be fun


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## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 3, 2017)

weimedog said:


> And we have our thread here too....the summary of the Arboristsite MS660 build thread in one video:




Pig rich in the first cuts from what I hear...


----------



## EB Saw (Feb 3, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> eb i am sure the 361 kit would be fun


Yah I think I might, would make a good Limbing and smaller tree saw, so I don't have to break out the 441 for the small stuff.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> lets talk a little about those pesky clips. you have advised without holding one in those stihl hands that an oem should be used. i have said time and time again these kits do not translate well. you are out of your element and have again given bad advice that will cause hardship.
> 
> the photo shows that the way the piston is designed when you drop that oem clip in you will not be able to get it back out without damaging the piston. and you run your mouth against me. man i expected better from you. monkey man is a bad influence on you brad. wink wink
> 
> ...


You should do your homework, perhaps gain a little experience, before you mouth off about something you obviously no NOTHING about. It's a proven fact that those ears can and do break off. Try reading instead of posting for once amd you'll find example after example were other members have lost topends due to these clips. This is s perfect example where you are an actual detriment and risk to the other members of this forum! 

For the rest of you that actually want to learn....in the case of a piston like this, you'll want to take a "Dremel" and lengthen that notch on into the circlip groove, so that an earless circlip can be removed. Another critical thing to take note of is to make sure that if replacing with OEM, that the wire diameter is the same. Otherwise, the clip either may not fit fully into the groove, or may let the wrist pin slide out.


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> You should do your homework, perhaps gain a little experience, before you mouth off about something you obviously no NOTHING about. It's a proven fact that those ears can and do break off. Try reading instead of posting for once amd you'll find example after example were other members have lost topends due to these clips. This is s perfect example where you are an actual detriment and risk to the other members of this forum! Maybe while doing your homework you'll find where I have plenty of experience with AM parts, and thereby know what you warn others of. Most people appreciate that, instead of being a belligerent troll such as yourself.
> 
> For the rest of you that actually want to learn....in the case of a piston like this, you'll want to take a "Dremel" and lengthen that notch on into the circlip groove, so that an earless circlip can be removed. Another critical thing to take note of is to make sure that if replacing with OEM, that the wire diameter is the same. Otherwise, the clip either may not fit fully into the groove, or may let the wrist pin slide out.


Yep!


----------



## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> You should do your homework, perhaps gain a little experience, before you mouth off about something you obviously no NOTHING about. It's a proven fact that those ears can and do break off. Try reading instead of posting for once amd you'll find example after example were other members have lost topends due to these clips. This is s perfect example where you are an actual detriment and risk to the other members of this forum! Maybe while doing your homework you'll find where I have plenty of experience with AM parts, and thereby know what you warn others of. Most people appreciate that, instead of being a belligerent troll such as yourself.
> 
> For the rest of you that actually want to learn....in the case of a piston like this, you'll want to take a "Dremel" and lengthen that notch on into the circlip groove, so that an earless circlip can be removed. Another critical thing to take note of is to make sure that if replacing with OEM, that the wire diameter is the same. Otherwise, the clip either may not fit fully into the groove, or may let the wrist pin slide out.



You should said that to start with before the answer was handed to ya and folks dashed off to implement it.

I knew it before you did. I have one


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## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2017)

I could put you on ignore, like others have done, but it would be a lot better for everyone else if you'd just go away!


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 3, 2017)

dswensen said:


> If you have recently ordered a Huztl 440 build kit:
> 
> When you all get your kits, take a close look at the chain brake main spring. Compare yours to the pictures in these "440 build" threads (problem with some springs is difficult to describe in words). You may need to order a replacement. Also, look for a throttle linkage. It might be missing completely - again you may need to order one. There have been challenges with the installation of the oil pumps - look through the threads for solutions, they are in there.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your experiences sir.



blsnelling said:


> Does that mean a discount?



A very good one from what I've seen. 



grizz55chev said:


> Maybe coupons for pie?



Now Grizz, you know I'm a sucker for a good slice of pie.


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 3, 2017)

Cool avatar Bedford.


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## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> I could put you on ignore, like others have done, but it would be a lot better for everyone else if you'd just go away!


And miss keeping you honest, would not miss it.


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 3, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> Cool avatar Bedford.
> 
> View attachment 555763


O no you didn't!


----------



## Mac&Homelite (Feb 3, 2017)

EB Saw said:


> Sorta off topic but I recently built up the 440 kit and really was impressed with the quality, for how much I paid, and was wondering if building up a 361 kit would be good, I know the crank issues exist but from what I have heard they are slightly rumors and how much could a new crank cost from huztl anyways, I think it might be a good kit, it's hard to justify owning a ms441 and a ms440


So far I would definitely recommend the 361 kit. I love my saw so far and after the hiccups of getting it to run (which was ultimately my fault) I have not had any problems. I was initially tempted to sell the saw after I built it and get a larger kit saw, but the more I use it, the more I have fallen for it. I know that the crank issues have existed in the past, but has anyone had any failure with the newest kits yet? I haven't heard of anything. I will say that there was a lot of vibration to begin with, but most of it went away after I tuned it and added a bar+chain, and it seems to have gotten better with use.


----------



## weimedog (Feb 3, 2017)

Mac&Homelite said:


> So far I would definitely recommend the 361 kit. I love my saw so far and after the hiccups of getting it to run (which was ultimately my fault) I have not had any problems. I was initially tempted to sell the saw after I built it and get a larger kit saw, but the more I use it, the more I have fallen for it. I know that the crank issues have existed in the past, but has anyone had any failure with the newest kits yet? I haven't heard of anything. I will say that there was a lot of vibration to begin with, but most of it went away after I tuned it and added a bar+chain, and it seems to have gotten better with use.



I have to wonder about the clutch.....one common denominator is those who said the vibrations on the different kits got better did so AFTER B&C and after being under load. Its either crank/flywheel related or Clutch/Clutch drum. And I actually saw something similar with the 660's just didn't make the connection. Need to go back and compare the Oregon vs. As delivered clutch drums as a start, maybe swap out the flywheel with OEM as well....just in the middle of other things now so that has to wait.


----------



## Mac&Homelite (Feb 3, 2017)

weimedog said:


> I have to wonder about the clutch.....one common denominator is those who said the vibrations on the different kits got better did so AFTER B&C and after being under load. Its either crank/flywheel related or Clutch/Clutch drum. And I actually saw something similar with the 660's just didn't make the connection. Need to go back and compare the Oregon vs. As delivered clutch drums as a start....just in the middle of other things now so that has to wait.


Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that has something to do with the clutch more than it does the crank. The clutch or drum on mine had or still has something funny going on with it. When it was assembled, I could hardly spin the clutch drum at all by hand. I installed a bar and chain and could then pull it around. Nothing seemed out of round and I didn't notice any odd effects when using the saw. I have not had any time to take it apart again and see what's going on, perhaps next weekend I will.


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## davhul (Feb 3, 2017)

Kit came in a couple hours ago. It was packed good and had no damage. I've only had time to look through the box. I did look at the chain brake spring. It looks like a 660 spring. I'll start on it tonight or tomorrow and get it going. Here's the spring and used oem. You can't tell in the pic but it's larger and bent different.


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## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

You mean he could string sentences together? I am not banned. If you are inferring I am causing trouble you might be missing the fact I am correcting the folks. Trouble maker.


----------



## davhul (Feb 3, 2017)

And deco valve has larger hole


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## Ozhoo (Feb 3, 2017)

I've run my "vibrator" with and without the clutch, with the farmertech flywheel and with an oem flywheel, I've replaced the crank with another farmertech and replaced a 50mm top end with an nwp 52mm.... and still have a vibrator.

My current theory surrounds the av mounts which may explain why it diminishes when you mount a b & c. I'll replace the av mounts in one tonight and test that theory.


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## EB Saw (Feb 3, 2017)

Shoot, I will pull the trigger on the 361 kit when I get home, should assemble much easier now that I have done the 440!


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## Bedford T (Feb 3, 2017)

The 660 had 3 levels of firmness on the av mounts that you could buy. I searched the IPL and it does not offer the same choice. Maybe someone with a spare 660 rubber piece could compare the sizes. The 440 mounts seemed much softer than the kit 660 mounts.


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## dswensen (Feb 3, 2017)

Yes, exactly. The kit spring (black cover) large anchoring hook on the left end in the picture is not axial with the spring coils like the OEM spring is. It is offset to the plane of the edge of the spring coils. For me, that was fatal for using the kit spring. The larger diameter of the coils is also a problem.



davhul said:


> Kit came in a couple hours ago. It was packed good and had no damage. I've only had time to look through the box. I did look at the chain brake spring. It looks like a 660 spring. I'll start on it tonight or tomorrow and get it going. Here's the spring and used oem. You can't tell in the pic but it's larger and bent different.


----------



## dswensen (Feb 3, 2017)

My kit also came with a plug bolt for the decomp valve port in the cylinder. I used the bolt. When pressed, the kit decomp valve did not let enough compression build to allow the saw to start.



davhul said:


> And deco valve has larger hole


----------



## Ozhoo (Feb 3, 2017)

The farmertech 440 mounts were softer than oem. I swapped em out and ditched the cheesy handlebar. It now it feels like it should and cuts like a 70cc saw on it's first tank.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> The farmertech 440 mounts were softer than oem. I swapped em out and ditched the cheesy handlebar. It now it feels like it should and cuts like a 70cc saw on it's first tank.



Nice work.


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## 67L36Driver (Feb 3, 2017)

dswensen said:


> My kit also came with a plug bolt for the decomp valve port in the cylinder. I used the bolt. When pressed, the kit decomp valve did not let enough compression build to allow the saw to start.



Exactly.

And the Hutzl part will loose its stem.


----------



## 67L36Driver (Feb 3, 2017)

Sniff, sniff.

I smell a post hoe!


----------



## EB Saw (Feb 3, 2017)

I decided to buy a few parts from huztl, I ordered 100 meters of starter rope, 4.0mm i won't be needed to buy that ever again, i also bought the Huztl version of the elasto start pull cord, was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked, i would and am definitely buying a few more. I also purchased a piston stop from them nd fuel caps, i found the fuel caps to need a little time to break in and they loosen up nicely, so far no leaks.


----------



## maulhead (Feb 4, 2017)

What is that smell,,,


----------



## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 4, 2017)

Eww that smell! Can't you smell that smell...
That smell that's around you!


----------



## davhul (Feb 4, 2017)

Mine smells like Kl200 on a nice 45° day. It went together like the 660 with a few different problems. A couple of the problems was mentioned earlier and some I had wasn't. But it's running. The cylinder looked better than my 660 did so I left it untouched for now. Only ran a 1/4 tank out. 
Edit: Mine didn't have anymore vibration than the 660


----------



## Ozhoo (Feb 7, 2017)

Finally got around to taking a look at the stuck on high idle issue. OEM control levers make no difference. Turns out the filter base is putting pressure on the control lever. A little clearance work with a drum sander makes a world of difference.


----------



## davhul (Feb 7, 2017)

I had to add material to that area for my 1/2 throttle position to function
Edit: That was 660 not 440


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## Ozhoo (Feb 7, 2017)

davhul said:


> I had to add material to that area for my 1/2 throttle position to function



Well now between adding and subtracting all those who follow should have a fully functioning throttle control.


----------



## davhul (Feb 7, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> Well now between adding and subtracting all those who follow should have a fully functioning throttle control.


Sorry that was my 660. Wrong thread. lol. I had no high idle problems with my 440


----------



## davhul (Feb 7, 2017)

The couple problems I had was the chain adjuster gear was to large




The slightly smaller oem worked




And my clutch drum was rubbing the oil pump tube. So I removed and bent it so it wouldn't


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## davhul (Feb 7, 2017)

Chain brake and spring installed




Wiring routed and carb on


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## 67L36Driver (Feb 7, 2017)

My first 361 would go from fast idle to full choke when you squeezed the trigger. Not handy at all.

OEM switch control rod cured it. I could find no difference between the two. Size, angle, shape....nothing.[emoji848]


----------



## davhul (Feb 8, 2017)

The carb that shipped with my 440 wouldn't idle but would run wide open. I have another on order. But in the meantime I'm running a 460 carb. I finally had time to take the carb apart and found my low speed orifice wasn't drilled all the way or something.


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## blsnelling (Feb 8, 2017)

davhul said:


> The carb that shipped with my 440 wouldn't idle but would run wide open. I have another on order. But in the meantime I'm running a 460 carb. I finally had time to take the carb apart and found my low speed orifice wasn't drilled all the way or something.


That'll do it!


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 8, 2017)

davhul said:


> The carb that shipped with my 440 wouldn't idle but would run wide open. I have another on order. But in the meantime I'm running a 460 carb. I finally had time to take the carb apart and found my low speed orifice wasn't drilled all the way or something.


Drill, baby, drill!


----------



## davhul (Feb 8, 2017)

I probably will. I'll need to see what size. I know It's Tinny tiny. The smallest bit I have is .0135 and I don't think it's smaller than that.


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 8, 2017)

blsnelling said:


> That'll do it!




I think we are up to 46 saws in our group buy. That's a lot of rice.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 8, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> I think we are up to 46 saws in our group buy. That's a lot of rice.


I need to check that out still.


----------



## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 13, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> I think we are up to 46 saws in our group buy. That's a lot of rice.



"Group buy" -- I believe I missed that. What does it mean? (many peeps, much rice?)


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## Guru LLC (Feb 17, 2017)

Stihlofadeal64 said:


> "Group buy" -- I believe I missed that. What does it mean? (many peeps, much rice?)



Yes sir. Many people.....and great prices.


----------



## tbohn (Feb 19, 2017)

Very frustrated! I have finally had the opportunity to work on my 440 kit again. I was able to get to run for several seconds after I first finished the kit but now I can't get it to fire. It has 155 psi compression, passed case vacuum test, has good spark, and getting fuel. The flywheel wood rift key looks intact.

I swapped carbs with an OEM saw. The kit carb worked great on the oem saw but the oem carb did not work on the kit saw.

I have a huztl 52mm cylinder installed. The squish band is not machined correctly. The quish gap is wider around the outer perimeter than it is towards the center of the bore. The squish gap should taper smaller towards the center of the bore or at least the squish band should be parallel to the top of the piston. This might make it run poorly but it should still fire.

You smart folks out there have any ideas?


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## EB Saw (Feb 19, 2017)

that can be frustrating, the only issues i have found that caused a total nonrun situation is the fuel line is kinked or my timing was off. If both those checkout then idk what to tell you. I am no expert on squish bands but i seriously doubt that is your problem. Maybe your port timing numbers are way off and something in the cylinder is not right. But what do i know, hopefully someone else will know. There isn't a lot to these small engines i think it will be resolved soon


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## tbohn (Feb 19, 2017)

I swapped out the flywheel with no success. I ripped off the cylinder and I will put the 50mm cylinder on tonight.


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 19, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I swapped out the flywheel with no success. *I ripped off the cylinder *and I will put the 50mm cylinder on tonight.



Pics of the ripping?


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## tbohn (Feb 19, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> Pics of the ripping?


Here are the two top ends side by side, the flywheel I swapped out, and the saw without the cylinder.


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## davhul (Feb 21, 2017)

Finally got a chance to run a few tanks through it. My carb should be in by Friday to replace the one that wasn't drilled. I'm running a 460 carb on it til then.


----------



## tbohn (Feb 24, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Here are the two top ends side by side, the flywheel I swapped out, and the saw without the cylinder.


I installed the 50mm top end that came with the kit - still no luck. I could not get it to pop even once. 

1. It has gas to the plug. Tried it dry and with gas squirted into the cylinder and carb directly. I swapped out the carb with an OEM saw. The Huztl carb worked great on the OEM but the OEM did not work on the Huztl saw.
2. It has 155 psi compression. Tried with decomp valve replaced with plug and with decomp valve. Swapped 52mm cylinder with 50mm cylinder.
3. The vacuum check holds on the case/boot/cylinder with rotation of crank. I question the boot seal where it meets the carb but it did pass the vacuum test.
4. It has a good spark. Tried two different spark plugs. One worked fine on other saw.
5. The flywheel key is intact so the ignition timing should be good. Swapped out flywheel with a different one.
6. The fuel is 91 octane and is about one month old. The mixture is at about 1:30 and it works fine in my other saws.

This is diving me crazy! It did briefly fire initially. Maybe I will swap out the coil to see what happens.
I don't know what to try next!


----------



## Guru LLC (Feb 24, 2017)

Try a different flywheel.


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 24, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> Try a different flywheel.


Post # 242 and # 246 both says he did.


----------



## Ozhoo (Feb 24, 2017)

I didn't read where you tried another ignition. These coils can drive a man to the drink.

Speaking of, it's after noon


----------



## tbohn (Feb 24, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> I didn't read where you tried another ignition. These coils can drive a man to the drink.
> 
> Speaking of, it's after noon



Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. 
I'm sure it is something stupid!


----------



## Bedford T (Feb 24, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
> I'm sure it is something stupid!


I got an extra I can send you it would be faster than waiting. I am in NC to give you a sense of shipping. You seem to have covered your bases well on trouble shooting. Did you check you magnets?


----------



## grizz55chev (Feb 24, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I got an extra I can send you it would be faster than waiting. I am in NC to give you a sense of shipping. You seem to have covered your bases well on trouble shooting. Did you check you magnets?


He changed the flywheel so.........


----------



## EB Saw (Feb 24, 2017)

Sounds like spark problem, it has to be the coil, there is nothin else, and maybe it is grounding its self out somehow. Idk, let us know when you find the issue, good luck!


----------



## tbohn (Feb 24, 2017)

EB Saw said:


> Sounds like spark problem, it has to be the coil, there is nothin else, and maybe it is grounding its self out somehow. Idk, let us know when you find the issue, good luck!


That's where I'm heading. I even pulled the ground wire of the coil and tried it...bad coil???


----------



## tbohn (Feb 24, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I got an extra I can send you it would be faster than waiting. I am in NC to give you a sense of shipping. You seem to have covered your bases well on trouble shooting. Did you check you magnets?


Thank you for the offer. I have an OEM I can try.


----------



## tbohn (Feb 24, 2017)

Just put the oem coil on and it started after 5 pulls. Still need to tune it so it doesn't die after 5 seconds.

Thanks for all the help.


----------



## EB Saw (Feb 24, 2017)

Glad to hear!


----------



## Ozhoo (Feb 24, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Just put the oem coil on and it started after 5 pulls. Still need to tune it so it doesn't die after 5 seconds.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.



Coils are like that, especially these aftermarket ones. You can put em on a spark tester and convince yourself that they're good and drive yourself nuts checking everything else. It's a good practice for anyone with one of these saws to keep a trouble-shooting module on hand.


----------



## tbohn (Feb 25, 2017)

Runs great. All tuned in with the Stihl OEM coil. Still has hefty vibration just above idle.


----------



## davhul (Feb 27, 2017)

I had a choke issue. It was hard to set or wouldn't set. So when I had the carb off I found the control lever wasn't shaped right where it touches the carb arm. 
Oem on the right "curved"


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## Bedford T (Feb 27, 2017)

Its beat up too and would soon have a groove in it. I guess the metal cover is in place for that very reason.


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## tbohn (Feb 28, 2017)

Here is the final build. It still has the oem coil.


----------



## Bedford T (Feb 28, 2017)

Excellent, you even dollied it up.


----------



## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 28, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Here is the final build. It still has the oem coil.



Is there some reason why the filter box cover looks crooked (or is it these old eyes)? Not being cynical -- otherwise a very nice looking saw


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## Bedford T (Feb 28, 2017)

There is a little play in them all. It just so pretty it stands out. It only cocked a fraction.


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## tbohn (Feb 28, 2017)

Stihlofadeal64 said:


> Is there some reason why the filter box cover looks crooked (or is it these old eyes)? Not being cynical -- otherwise a very nice looking saw


I didn't even notice. I checked just now. It is crooked.


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## Bedford T (Feb 28, 2017)

Refund. My top moves slightly.


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## tbohn (Feb 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Refund. My top moves slightly.


I hope it doesn't cut crooked now!


----------



## Ozhoo (Feb 28, 2017)

Stihlofadeal64 said:


> Is there some reason why the filter box cover looks crooked (or is it these old eyes)? Not being cynical -- otherwise a very nice looking saw



There's no grommets in the cylinder cover so it doesn't sit right. You can fiddle around with them to get em close.


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## Stihlofadeal64 (Feb 28, 2017)

Would it be possible to put the brass bushings in these covers like the OEM ones? 
You think that would solve it?


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## Ozhoo (Feb 28, 2017)

Stihlofadeal64 said:


> Would it be possible to put the brass bushings in these covers like the OEM ones?
> You think that would solve it?



Sure the aftermarket covers are a direct copy of the oem but they don't supply the grommets. The grommets have a 9mm OD so you can imagine how much slop you get.


----------



## tbohn (Mar 1, 2017)

I did screw the top cover in when it was around 25 degrees and snapped the plastic around the side hole. It was brittle. I didn't even tighten it much.


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## Bearhawk (Mar 1, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> I think we are up to 46 saws in our group buy. That's a lot of rice.



Can you PM me about the group buy. I would like to buy a few as well as a good friend of mine would like a few too.


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## Bedford T (Mar 1, 2017)

Does yours look like this?


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## Bedford T (Mar 1, 2017)

I fiddled with it.


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## Bedford T (Mar 1, 2017)

I got this chain guard today.


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## tbohn (Mar 1, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Does yours look like this?


Yep.


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## dswensen (Mar 1, 2017)

I found some steel "spacers" at my local Ace Hardware. You know the type of store - the ones with the endless bins of little-bitty parts that you wonder how they make any money on? The spacer OD is a tight press-fit in the cover, and the ID matches the screws pretty well. You might go have a look - they work really well to prevent over-tightening too.



Stihlofadeal64 said:


> Would it be possible to put the brass bushings in these covers like the OEM ones?
> You think that would solve it?


----------



## Guru LLC (Mar 1, 2017)

Bearhawk said:


> Can you PM me about the group buy. I would like to buy a few as well as a good friend of mine would like a few too.



The order was placed on Monday.


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## Bearhawk (Mar 1, 2017)

Guru LLC said:


> The order was placed on Monday.



Story of my life.


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## Guru LLC (Mar 2, 2017)

If you were a member of a site that can't be mentioned here because of some sort of internet turf war or some such nonsense, you could probably still get a 660 at the group price. But I can't post the name of the site. It is censored and I am actually not allowed to even post.


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## TreeJoe (Mar 13, 2017)

The kit seems like a good bet, I see they have a wrap handle for the 440. Be nice on kits larger than the 361.


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## dswensen (Mar 13, 2017)

I got the 044 and had so much fun with the "big-boy jigsaw puzzle" that I went ahead and got the 066 too.

Each kit had issues. A few missing minor parts. A few parts manufactured incorrectly. A few bolt holes that needed to be tapped. One clutch drum that needed the center hole a few thou bigger. A few trips to the hardware store for screws and nuts. But I'd do them both again. Solving the problems needs to be part of the fun, or you will drive yourself crazy.

They both started from dry in five pulls or less and they both run strong. The 066 actually runs better.

Hmmm... I have one more spare 20" Stihl bar. What to do?



TreeJoe said:


> The kit seems like a good bet, I see they have a wrap handle for the 440. Be nice on kits larger than the 361.


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## Mac&Homelite (Mar 13, 2017)

dswensen said:


> Hmmm... I have one more spare 20" Stihl bar. What to do?


Ms 361. The husky kit may be fun also. Haven't heard much on those yet surprisingly.


----------



## jd548esco72 (Mar 14, 2017)

i;ve been threatening to do a 361 for a while-- 

these kit saw grow on ya!!--


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## dswensen (Mar 14, 2017)

I would build a MS361 ...... if I didn't already have a real one!



Mac&Homelite said:


> Ms 361. The husky kit may be fun also. Haven't heard much on those yet surprisingly.


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## tbohn (Mar 14, 2017)

dswensen said:


> I would build a MS361 ...... if I didn't already have a real one!


I'm in the same situation but I might get a kit anyway.


----------



## Wood Chopper (Mar 21, 2017)

Just finished with the 660 build. By any chance are the fly wheel threads and PTO threads the same. I made a crank puller (I know I know I don't need it lol) for the 660 

m10x1 and m12x1 LH


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## tbohn (Mar 21, 2017)

Wood Chopper said:


> Just finished with the 660 build. By any chance are the fly wheel threads and PTO threads the same. I made a crank puller (I know I know I don't need it lol) for the 660
> 
> m10x1 and m12x1


PTO is left hand thread.


----------



## Wood Chopper (Mar 21, 2017)

Yeah I just edited my last post to be clear. Thanks T


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## Wood Chopper (Mar 21, 2017)

I wanna do one more 660 with the 56mm BB and then either the 360 0r 440. The other saws I have are a ms 310 and a Ms250.

So I was wondering if the threads were the same on the 660 and 440.


----------



## tbohn (Mar 22, 2017)

Wood Chopper said:


> I wanna do one more 660 with the 56mm BB and then either the 360 0r 440. The other saws I have are a ms 310 and a Ms250.
> 
> So I was wondering if the threads were the same on the 660 and 440.


The 660 crank is much larger than the 440 crank. The 660 flywheel nut is M10 and the 440 is M8.


----------



## Ozhoo (Mar 22, 2017)

440 and 660 are the same clutch threads... here's a 440 clutch installed on a 660.


----------



## Wood Chopper (Mar 22, 2017)

Perfect [emoji108] thanks boys. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tbohn (Mar 28, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Just put the oem coil on and it started after 5 pulls. Still need to tune it so it doesn't die after 5 seconds.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.


I ordered a new Huztl coil on Feb 24 from their ebay site. It arrived yesterday. Huztl is also sending a replacement for the bad coil that came with the 440 kit. It didn't ship until Mar 16.

I also ordered a replacement wrist pin bearing for 380 kit. It was ordered through ebay on Mar 3rd. It's still not here. Huztl is also sending a replacement but it took a couple of weeks to get Huztl to agree to send a replacement for the wrong one sent with the kit.

My point is don't go through China for stuff if you need it in less than a month. If you can wait, the kits are decent quality and good pricing but can get frustrating when resolving some of the issues like missing parts or non-functioning parts.


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## tbohn (Mar 28, 2017)

...and the ms440 runs great now.


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## Bedford T (Mar 28, 2017)

I put mine in wood the other day and it did good. My log slipped at first but the saw did great.


----------



## Mac&Homelite (Mar 28, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I put mine in wood the other day and it did good. My log slipped at first but the saw did great.



Looks good, but it sounds like it's going to need a muffler mod.


----------



## Big_Wood (Mar 28, 2017)

grizz55chev said:


> Just passing on info, you do it how you want, these parts are probably the cheapest replacement parts on the saw and when they fail, it'll ruin your day. Lots, and I mean lots of documented cases of AM circlip failure, do some reading, I'm not the first and certainly not the last to experience this, good luck.



don't talk him out of it, should be a good thread for later


----------



## grizz55chev (Mar 28, 2017)

westcoaster90 said:


> don't talk him out of it, should be a good thread for later


Can't fix stupid.


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## Big_Wood (Mar 28, 2017)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/search/13809598/?q=broken+circlip&o=relevance&c[node]=9


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## Wood Chopper (Apr 2, 2017)

What do you call this Scaley surface. If I scratch it with my fingernail I get like a white powdery residue and the surface feels smoother after I scratch it. ? That's not porosity is it. ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bedford T (Apr 2, 2017)

One of these will make that go away


----------



## tbohn (Apr 2, 2017)

Wood Chopper said:


> What do you call this Scaley surface. If I scratch it with my fingernail I get like a white powdery residue and the surface feels smoother after I scratch it. ? That's not porosity is it. ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it may be magnesium corrosion. I have seen it on all the huztl cases except the 660 kits for some reason. I wipe it off with rubbing alcohol on a q-tip.


----------



## TimTaylor (Apr 3, 2017)

Hi. I read this post from start to finish and watched all the YouTube vids I could find, then I ordered this kit and built it. It was missing a throttle rod, fuel cap, buffer plug, and cylinder gasket but I had those bits as spares till they turn up so no worries. It went together really well and thanks to this thread I avoided the common problems, thanks for that......but......... I didn't put in the compression release, it seemed really leaky, and without it the compression is really strong.....The saw started on the fifth pull. Really really strong and the throttle response is eye watering. Cut some chips. Had tea......first pull broke the pull start pulley...... has anyone else had that happen? I've ordered three more but do I just put in a genuine Stihl part?

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## TimTaylor (Apr 3, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Hi. I read this post from start to finish and watched all the YouTube vids I could find, then I ordered this kit and built it. It was missing a throttle rod, fuel cap, buffer plug, and cylinder gasket but I had those bits as spares till they turn up so no worries. It went together really well and thanks to this thread I avoided the common problems, thanks for that......but......... I didn't put in the compression release, it seemed really leaky, and without it the compression is really strong.....The saw started on the fifth pull. Really really strong and the throttle response is eye watering. Cut some chips. Had tea......first pull broke the pull start pulley...... has anyone else had that happen? I've ordered three more but do I just put in a genuine Stihl part?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


Also should have said that it's built with the 52 mm big bore. And the quality of the cylinder and piston were very very good.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## Ozhoo (Apr 3, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> ......first pull broke the pull start pulley...... has anyone else had that happen? I've ordered three more but do I just put in a genuine Stihl part?



I've broken enough "chilastostart handles" to reach mainland China, but no starter pulleys. I'd just replace it with aftermarket and rock.


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## Bedford T (Apr 3, 2017)

I have seen one starter rotor fail, not mine. It was from drop starting a hoss 660


----------



## TimTaylor (Apr 3, 2017)

I can live with a random failure, and I'm going to put the saw through it's paces close to home for a while and work out the kinks. Pretty happy with the quality actually,..soo much better than the Chinese chainsaw of awesomeness that I bought for fun from a local importer,it has pieces drop off it when you walk past. And farmertec are fixing the issues,I can see from my parts,I had less issues than many people. It isn't a Stihl but it's got all the signs of being a good fun firewood saw.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## RoverRebellion (Apr 4, 2017)

Hi there. May I ask why you chose the MS440 kit over the 660 Kit? Do you have experience with other Farmertech saws?


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## TimTaylor (Apr 4, 2017)

RoverRebellion said:


> Hi there. May I ask why you chose the MS440 kit over the 660 Kit? Do you have experience with other Farmertech saws?


Hi. No experience with the kits but I have ordered carbs and ignition units and found them good. No real reason for going for an ms440. It was a bit of an eni meni myni mo. Should I try an ms660? I'm hoping they come out with a BIG Husqvana copy. Love the noise they make. 
I really just wanted to see what they were like. Same reason I bought the chainsaw of awesomeness( a bad bad bad yellow copy of something bad but it looked cool) but a totally different result cause the farmertec saw seems pretty good 

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## dswensen (Apr 4, 2017)

Why stop at one? I didn't - I got them both for less than the cost of one real one. 

My impressions? The 044 copy would be quite a bit more nimble to use in the field, but the 066 copy is just cool to run.



RoverRebellion said:


> Hi there. May I ask why you chose the MS440 kit over the 660 Kit? Do you have experience with other Farmertech saws?


----------



## RoverRebellion (Apr 4, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Hi. No experience with the kits but I have ordered carbs and ignition units and found them good. No real reason for going for an ms440. It was a bit of an eni meni myni mo. Should I try an ms660? I'm hoping they come out with a BIG Husqvana copy. Love the noise they make.
> I really just wanted to see what they were like. Same reason I bought the chainsaw of awesomeness( a bad bad bad yellow copy of something bad but it looked cool) but a totally different result cause the farmertec saw seems pretty good
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk



I am hoping for a large Husq in the Huztl lineup sometime soon too! I think the first one I try will indeed be the ms660 kit.

Side note, isn't the INTERNET amazing... Look on google maps how far away we are from each other communicating seamlessly.


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## tbohn (Apr 4, 2017)

So far the best deal is the 660 kit. You are hard pressed to buy a used ms660 for double the price. It is also the highest quality kit and I have had the least amount of issues with. 
The 380 kit is probably equal quality but you can get used 038 for about the same money.


----------



## TimTaylor (Apr 4, 2017)

It's a small world now thanks to the net. And it's great to be able to share ideas and experience from a distance. It's a bit limited here in nz thanks to the distances and freight but it's getting better. 

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## TimTaylor (Apr 4, 2017)

tbohn said:


> So far the best deal is the 660 kit. You are hard pressed to buy a used ms660 for double the price. It is also the highest quality kit and I have had the least amount of issues with.
> The 380 kit is probably equal quality but you can get used 038 for about the same money.


Now if only I had known that.....oh well I'd better order a 660...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## TimTaylor (Apr 4, 2017)

Did you build a big bore 660? Is that the way I should go?

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


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## tbohn (Apr 4, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Did you build a big bore 660? Is that the way I should go?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


The first one I built with a Huztl 56mm without a base gasket. The squish was 23 mils and the compression is over 180psi. It needs a kick-starter. There is no way I can turn it over without the decomp. I think all the 56mm have some freeport under the cylinder in the exhaust port. My huztl 56mm had about 12 mils of freeport. I bought a Vostore 56mm and it had 95 mils of freeport. I think this is unacceptable and would result in loss of performance. I might install it just to find out.

Anyways...my 56mm with 23 mils of squish is noticeably stronger than a standard 54mm kit.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 4, 2017)

I haven't measured the compression of the 52mm 440 yet but it feels really high and I may have to fit a decomp as well.I built it without a base gasket, mostly because there wasn't one in the kit, and the squish was 25 ish. I can't get over the throttle response it's like a race car

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## TimTaylor (Apr 4, 2017)

It does vibrate quite a lot at just off idle though, I'm told that might get better, what is the big bore 660 like with vibration?

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## tbohn (Apr 4, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> It does vibrate quite a lot at just off idle though, I'm told that might get better, what is the big bore 660 like with vibration?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


My 440 kit vibrates too much in my opinion. A lot more than my 660s. My 380 kit is very smooth.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 5, 2017)

Is that to do with the flywheel and crank being smaller and lighter? Those bits are a lot smaller than the same bits from my 048 but with the same bar and chain in the same log it feels like the 440 might just have more power, which I'm very surprised about. 

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## tbohn (Apr 5, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Is that to do with the flywheel and crank being smaller and lighter? Those bits are a lot smaller than the same bits from my 048 but with the same bar and chain in the same log it feels like the 440 might just have more power, which I'm very surprised about.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


There have been other reports of vibration with the 440 kits. My guess it is poor quality control. Mine is worst just above idle rpm. It must hit it's natural frequency around 4,000 to 5,000 rpm.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 5, 2017)

tbohn said:


> There have been other reports of vibration with the 440 kits. My guess it is poor quality control. Mine is worst just above idle rpm. It must hit it's natural frequency around 4,000 to 5,000 rpm.


Have you done much cutting with it? Do you think it's something you would keep using? 

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## Bedford T (Apr 5, 2017)

Here is a 440 I built cutting.


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## tbohn (Apr 5, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Have you done much cutting with it? Do you think it's something you would keep using?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


I have not been able to use it in wood yet. I have trip planned in the next few weeks to my cabin in northern MN. We had a large storm blow down last summer so I will get some time on several Huztl kits. I hope to go head to head with oem.


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## Bedford T (Apr 5, 2017)

Cabin, trees, saws, fishing [emoji38]


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## Wood Chopper (Apr 7, 2017)

Ok, so I started my 440 build last night. During the trial fit of the cylinder with no piston rings on I started to measure the squish with no base gasket. The solder that I was using on the 660's to measure squish was fine. For this 440 it was too thin. Went to .050 solder still too thin. I have thicker solder that I may have to make "feeler gauges" out of and see where I am really at with no base gasket. I guess what I am getting at is unless this is just a weird cylinder I am going to have to take a lot of meat off the cylinder base at least .030 My original plan was to use the base gasket and take that thickness off cylinder. 

So first do you think the cylinder is way off?

Second how much have people taken off the base? There is a lot of meat there but I'm brobably looking at .040 -.050 ?? to get to the low .020's


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## tbohn (Apr 7, 2017)

Wood Chopper said:


> Ok, so I started my 440 build last night. During the trial fit of the cylinder with no piston rings on I started to measure the squish with no base gasket. The solder that I was using on the 660's to measure squish was fine. For this 440 it was too thin. Went to .050 solder still too thin. I have thicker solder that I may have to make "feeler gauges" out of and see where I am really at with no base gasket. I guess what I am getting at is unless this is just a weird cylinder I am going to have to take a lot of meat off the cylinder base at least .030 My original plan was to use the base gasket and take that thickness off cylinder.
> 
> So first do you think the cylinder is way off?
> 
> Second how much have people taken off the base? There is a lot of meat there but I'm brobably looking at .040 -.050 ?? to get to the low .020's


The 50mm cylinder that came with my kit had over 38 mils of squish without a base gasket. My solder is only 38 mils and it did not deform.


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## Wood Chopper (Apr 7, 2017)

tbohn said:


> The 50mm cylinder that came with my kit had over 38 mils of squish without a base gasket. My solder is only 38 mils and it did not deform.



Was that one of the reasons you went with the 52mm?

If I take that much off to get to a reasonable # will I effect port timing too much?


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## Wood Chopper (Apr 7, 2017)

I just read the other thread. With eb saws measurents


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## TimTaylor (Apr 23, 2017)

Silly question, sort of. In nz we use both metric and imperial measurements, but I'm confused by the squish measurements quoted here. I assumed that 020 mil meant 20 thousandth of an inch. So that is the squish I set up on the 52mm jug. And I keep snapping starter cords and handles and pulleys . And it kicks like a mule. Is 020 mil really 2 mm or something? Cause that doesn't really make sense 

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## TimTaylor (Apr 23, 2017)

What I'm really starting to think is that the timing is off somewhere. And that means I'm going to pull it all back apart and measure everything and I know I should have done that first. Funny thing is it ran so well first up, until I broke the starter pulley. I did check the fly wheel key but I haven't checked the timing. Did I read somewhere that it's possible for the flywheel aluminium part to move on the steel part?

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## tbohn (Apr 23, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Silly question, sort of. In nz we use both metric and imperial measurements, but I'm confused by the squish measurements quoted here. I assumed that 020 mil meant 20 thousandth of an inch. So that is the squish I set up on the 52mm jug. And I keep snapping starter cords and handles and pulleys . And it kicks like a mule. Is 020 mil really 2 mm or something? Cause that doesn't really make sense
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


20 mil = 20 mil thousands = 0.020 inch


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## tbohn (Apr 23, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> What I'm really starting to think is that the timing is off somewhere. And that means I'm going to pull it all back apart and measure everything and I know I should have done that first. Funny thing is it ran so well first up, until I broke the starter pulley. I did check the fly wheel key but I haven't checked the timing. Did I read somewhere that it's possible for the flywheel aluminium part to move on the steel part?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


I started with a 52mm cylinder and had issues with it not starting. I had compression, spark, and fuel but after starting and dying about three times it would not start at all. I replaced the ignition coil and it be running great ever since.

The 52mm huztl cylinder had a very uneven squish measurement. It varied several mils depending where I measured. The squish band at the top of the cylinder also was machined so the squish measurement was wider toward the outer bore radius than it was 3/16 inch in from the outer bore radius.

I would suspect your coil but recheck your flywheel too.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 26, 2017)

Ok,I have slightly variable squish but better than I expected. 20 to 24 thou. Slightly tight I would have thought but I don't really want to put a base gasket in if I can help it. Weird thing is the tank relief valve seems to have failed. And the carb somehow as well. The cylinder was full of fuel, and fuel was pumping into the crankcase ,and air filter, with the saw sitting on the bench right way up, with the tank half full ....? All of the rest of it is fine, the coil runs another Stihl saw fine. So I rebuild the carb and put another relief valve in? Or would a genuine Stihl carb be a better bet? Still enjoying the experiment but I haven't made a lot of sawdust yet. And the 52mm piston's "ceramic" coating washed off in petrol.....And made black marks on the white saw under the exhaust. . Forgot to take photos. The piston is actually a very nice looking object though even now. 

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## Bedford T (Apr 26, 2017)

Pistons ceramic coating washed off? Are you sure it was a coating. Did you pressure test the saw including the fuel system? Black marks should wipe off.


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## davhul (Apr 26, 2017)

I've had some pistons with it on there. Not sure if it's ceramic but it's a anti scuff coating. It will wear off. 
That black under the muffler is likaly oil from assembly or a rich tune. Also their supplied gasket is lacking.


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## Bedford T (Apr 26, 2017)

Were they aftermarket that you had with the coating


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## davhul (Apr 26, 2017)

Yes. NWP


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## TimTaylor (Apr 26, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Pistons ceramic coating washed off? Are you sure it was a coating. Did you pressure test the saw including the fuel system? Black marks should wipe off.


In hind sight it's probably an anti scuff coating. It was on the 52mm farmertec piston and not on the 50mm. And it didn't wipe off the saw housing until I used petrol. No damage done and as I said, the 52 mm piston looks very nice even now, better somehow than the 50mm one. 

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## TimTaylor (Apr 26, 2017)

davhul said:


> I've had some pistons with it on there. Not sure if it's ceramic but it's a anti scuff coating. It will wear off.
> That black under the muffler is likaly oil from assembly or a rich tune. Also their supplied gasket is lacking.


Anti scuff makes sense, and it was that coating under the muffler, it looked like black paint and only came off with petrol

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## TimTaylor (Apr 26, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Pistons ceramic coating washed off? Are you sure it was a coating. Did you pressure test the saw including the fuel system? Black marks should wipe off.


I pressure tested, and the fuel tank holds pressure and vacuum with the vent in place. I thought the vent should vent vacuum and any pressure over a couple of psi? The marks washed off,I was just concerned that the petrol had eaten my piston. But if it's an anti scuff coating then it's not a problem I guess

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## Bedford T (Apr 26, 2017)

My 440 had to have the vent replaced too and a oem was used to replace it. That and the carb pulse are two things you can't see or touch and both can ruin your day. Sounds like you have your bases covered. Mine runs good. there is a guy that has a bunch of down trees and he needs a hand i am going to take a bunch of saws and my camera soon and go have some fun sometime soon.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 27, 2017)

It's a fun kit set saw, and I have enough old trees around my property that I can test it thoroughly before I take it out and embarrass myself in front of other people, so like I said before if a few things break and get reegineered or replaced with oem then no harm no foul. And on a side note I ordered and received a spare couple of farmertec chain adjusters and they have been changed....much higher tolerance and quality. So that's good as well...

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## RoverRebellion (Apr 27, 2017)

Has anyone tried not using the metal cylinder gasket? My Huztl 660 runs like a beast without it. I simply used 1184 as directed on both surfaces and it works fine. Squish is a bit tight though but hasn't been an issue and I'm plowing it through some 20"+ red oaks. 


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## davhul (Apr 27, 2017)

What's you squish look like without the gasket on your 440? The last oem 440 I did I had my squish around .015. 
On my 660's I'm happy around .020. 
My last couple kit 660's had .023 without the gasket with huztl topend.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 27, 2017)

I had to use no gasket, or make one, because the supplied one was the metal gasket for a 660 and the didn't fit the 440. I ordered another gasket and it's a type gasket more like I expected, but I haven't fitted it, yet. Squish without gasket, for me, is between .020 and .024 

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## Mac&Homelite (Apr 27, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> It's a fun kit set saw, and I have enough old trees around my property that I can test it thoroughly before I take it out and embarrass myself in front of other people, so like I said before if a few things break and get reegineered or replaced with oem then no harm no foul. And on a side note I ordered and received a spare couple of farmertec chain adjusters and they have been changed....much higher tolerance and quality. So that's good as well...
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


Nice to hear that they are making improvements on those chain adjusters, now they just have to work on the decomp valves. The main problem with those old chain adjusters was that the end of the adjuster (the one parallel to the bar nearest the clutch) was too small for the housing. Wobbled all around and the soft metal in the gears didn't help anything. From the advice of other members on here, I pressed on a little brass tube bushing and I have had zero problems so far. Gears turn quite nice and should last quite a while, sure beats the price of a new oem set.


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## Ozhoo (Apr 27, 2017)

Just finished this little cutie for a logging outfit. She's got a Hyway BB cylinder tucked up there under her skirt. By far the best cylinder out there and at the current prices it's a bargain.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 27, 2017)

Do you have a list of things you have done to make it reliable? Or do you just fix as required until it gets there?

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## Bedford T (Apr 27, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> Just finished this little cutie for a logging outfit. She's got a Hyway BB cylinder tucked up there under her skirt. By far the best cylinder out there and at the current prices it's a bargain.
> 
> View attachment 575904
> 
> ...


Does your store sell hyway or just farmertec?


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## Ozhoo (Apr 27, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Does your store sell hyway or just farmertec?



Just farmertec. Hyway parts are best purchased through HLSupply. These cylinders were $110 or so but now they're 60 something. Less warranty but same cylinder.


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## Ozhoo (Apr 27, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Do you have a list of things you have done to make it reliable? Or do you just fix as required until it gets there?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk



Other than the piston and cylinder, I use Walbro HD-16's on 440's and 460's. The tanks and crankcases hold up fine. Oilers are fine and the 3/4 wrap bars are loads stronger than the 1/2 wraps.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 27, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> Other than the piston and cylinder, I use Walbro HD-16's on 440's and 460's. The tanks and crankcases hold up fine. Oilers are fine and the 3/4 wrap bars are loads stronger than the 1/2 wraps.


Good information thank you. 

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## TimTaylor (Apr 30, 2017)

Rebuilt the carb and replaced the fuel vent. Two tanks through it now. It's good . Very powerful. But the adjustments are very fiddly.it keeps going out of adjustment and idling poorly. I think a warlbro might be in order. Or another farmertec one.we put a farmertec carb on my neighbors 064 and it's never gone better......anyway it cuts.









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## Bedford T (Apr 30, 2017)

A pressure test would be a good first step in troubleshooting the finickyness.


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## TimTaylor (Apr 30, 2017)

I pressure tested everything once I had the initial problems, that's how I found the fuel tank relief was not functional. Before I rebuilt the carb raw fuel flowed into the engine with the saw sitting right way up on the bench. Could there be something else causing problems? I have seen a partially blocked pulse line cause bad idle but I checked that too. 

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## Bedford T (Apr 30, 2017)

I am hardly an expert. But in troubleshooting you don't have to be, just follow the steps. One pressure test is not complete. You test, correct, test again, until no more problems show up. But most don't check pulse so that's positive. Once your positive it's not pressure vacuum then I would recheck the carb assembly.


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## Bedford T (Apr 30, 2017)

A few of the kit carbs did not have a jet drilled. Obiviously not your problem.


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## Ozhoo (Apr 30, 2017)

I wouldn't run it anymore until you figure it out Tim. What you're describing is classic air leak symptoms. 

With hard to find leaks, I pull 7psi vacuum and start rotating/twisting/pushing/flexing everything. If that fails to find it, I pressurize to 7psi and lower the saw into a 5 gallon bucket of water.


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## TimTaylor (May 5, 2017)

I pressure tested every thing again, all good, most of my saws started out as someone else's basket case, and I have a couple of 048s that I have managed to get reliable so its not my first rodeo, but I will fess up and say I haven't used the bucket of water trick yet. But this is exactly what my neighbors 064 was doing and the new ft carb fixed it........think I might just get a new carb with that 25" bar....can always use the spares.....might do the pressure test yet again in the water though, just in case.Thank you for your experience and advice

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## jd548esco72 (May 5, 2017)

on my china 372 build the first carb i used was a bit screwy , sounded a bit like your 440-- i had a coiple spares --the next one fixed the problem. 

these china made carbs are a bit of a grab bag.


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## TimTaylor (May 17, 2017)

Well the carb arrived. And it didn't look like the original one. It does look more like the pictures of a Stihl carb. I wonder if they have been updated or did I get the wrong carb originally? 
No biggie because with this new carb it fired on the first pull and idles like a real saw. Plus I have a couple of 25" bars and chains from farmertec to try out. Fire wood time! 

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## TimTaylor (May 19, 2017)

Two more tanks and both times it ran lean before the tank was three quarters empty. So I pulled the fuel line and checked it. changed the filter for a smaller heavier one and put the fuel line in back to front because the filter seems to sit in the bottom of the tank better. Ran two more tanks through it cutting big dry fallen timber and it ran the tank dry. I have it very rich at the moment and it loads down when it's idling but it's good. So light.

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## Bedford T (May 19, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Two more tanks and both times it ran lean before the tank was three quarters empty. So I pulled the fuel line and checked it. changed the filter for a smaller heavier one and put the fuel line in back to front because the filter seems to sit in the bottom of the tank better. Ran two more tanks through it cutting big dry fallen timber and it ran the tank dry. I have it very rich at the moment and it loads down when it's idling but it's good. So light.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


We know generally that the 660 gets lean as the tank runs low on fuel, I refill at just under a half. 

I have yet taken time but will, to look at a setup like the br600 has in tank with two filters. 

Changing the filters parts could cause you trouble. Maybe at least consider it could in the filter element is too small and if you are using an ester based oil it might be to thick.


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## TimTaylor (May 19, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> We know generally that the 660 gets lean as the tank runs low on fuel, I refill at just under a half.
> 
> I have yet taken time but will, to look at a setup like the br600 has in tank with two filters.
> 
> Changing the filters parts could cause you trouble. Maybe at least consider it could in the filter element is too small and if you are using an ester based oil it might be to thick.


The saw leaned out when it was on one side on half a tank and ran rich on the other side, like it had a bad seal on one side of the tank, but I knew that wasn't the case. But when I looked in the tank I could see that the filter was staying halfway up the tank on one side, and not following the fuel. Plus the filter was so big it was half out of the fuel whenever the fuel level was much below full. So I found a genuine Stihl 660 filter, which is half the size and much heavier so it should follow the fuel and I figure even a big bore 440 should still get enough fuel through a filter designed for a bigger saw. Then I pulled the fuel line and turned it around so that the bends in it tend to hold the filter horizontal at the bottom of the tank, hopefully where the fuel is. And it seems at this stage to work....Maybe when I build the 660 the same mods might help there too?

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## TimTaylor (May 19, 2017)

It should read "like it had a bad seal on one side of the crank"

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## Bedford T (May 19, 2017)

You learn a lot working with the kits. Views and perspectives most never get.


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## TimTaylor (May 19, 2017)

Yes it's been fun and if I get a firewood saw that I can use and get a grin from then that is almost a bonus. 

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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

Well it's a good thing I have a few saws that always go when I need them, because now it seems that the flywheel side bearing has collapsed. Was cutting through a series of foot thick branches, not full throttle , sharp chain, not leaning, not even full revs, and it stopped like it had seized. Or picked up the bore, which is what I thought had happened. Pulled the muffler and the piston looked mint. Pulled the barrel and there are bits of ball bearing in there. No real damage that I can see so far but I'm a bit worried about the case's because the cage is jammed between the crank and the case bottom. Think that's what stopped it. 

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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

It's actually getting quite funny. In a way. Maybe the raw fuel and the paint off the piston from the last escapade damaged the bearing? Maybe it was a dud? Maybe I harmed it in some way putting the case's together but that has never happened to me before, I'm pretty careful. So the question is, will I get to the stage of having a copy saw that is useable on a day to day basis? It seems not. But I'm building a Husqvana 2100cd from old bits and there is a big old Jonsered in parts under the bench, and I still might have a go at a 660 copy, but maybe with a damaged old doner to build on

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## Bedford T (May 20, 2017)

Photos when possible please


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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

Will do. I'll split the cases tomorrow hopefully

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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

Not really much to see. Except that you can see it's been running rich and the piston has no scores or damage from running lean etc.But the oil in the case is black like diesel oil and the other side bearing and the big end bearing have obviously been chewing on whatever metal came out of the failed bearing. So the big end bearing and rod look toast, have to assume the crank is also toast, plus the bearings obviously. Little end and piston and jug look great. Cases look ok. So... better and worse than I hoped. Other things to play with today so it can wait till the bench is clean and I've decided what to do. There is a road kill 440 locally that I'm going to bid on, I might just put the tank and plastics etc from this on it if I get it.















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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

I will pull it down and photograph the damage no matter what I do. Apologies for the dirty engine I would normally clean things first but in this case I didn't see the point.

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## tbohn (May 20, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Not really much to see. Except that you can see it's been running rich and the piston has no scores or damage from running lean etc.But the oil in the case is black like diesel oil and the other side bearing and the big end bearing have obviously been chewing on whatever metal came out of the failed bearing. So the big end bearing and rod look toast, have to assume the crank is also toast, plus the bearings obviously. Little end and piston and jug look great. Cases look ok. So... better and worse than I hoped. Other things to play with today so it can wait till the bench is clean and I've decided what to do. There is a road kill 440 locally that I'm going to bid on, I might just put the tank and plastics etc from this on it if I get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like your piston is in backwards. The arrow should point towards the exhaust.


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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

Good spotting, but I took the piston off the con rod to look at it and just slipped out back on to keep it all together. And got it backwards. Won't be running it like that. Can't run it with that con rod or crank again anyway

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## TimTaylor (May 20, 2017)

But actually, looking again, the clean part of the piston should be the intake side and its not ,so maybe I did have the piston in backwards. That would be a duh moment but I can't see how that could be related to the crank bearing....?

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## tbohn (May 21, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> But actually, looking again, the clean part of the piston should be the intake side and its not ,so maybe I did have the piston in backwards. That would be a duh moment but I can't see how that could be related to the crank bearing....?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


Agreed. Shouldn't impact the bearing. Any signs the rings snagged on the exhaust port? This is the first I've seen a bearing failure reported on the Huztl kits.


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## TimTaylor (May 21, 2017)

No the piston and bore look good. Bit confused if the piston was in backwards I remember checking twice that I had I correct. Also when I put it together I remember how impressed I was with the bearings and how smooth it all felt.
It did get a rough life for a start though, with the carb issues.It is possible that it got slightly hydraulic ed perhaps...with the raw fuel..? Wouldn't have thought that would do it but it might have contributed. Also possible that it was shocked in shipping. 

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## tbohn (May 21, 2017)

I would think it would not fire if it was flooded enough to create an incompressible fluid situation. Mine floods with one extra pull on choke. My guess would be a defective bearing or a loose chunk of carbon. How many tanks have you put through it? Looks like a lot of buildup on the top of the piston.


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## BuckthornBonnie (May 21, 2017)

Curious failure--- flywheel side bearing went first? I've had two Chinese 6203s that were "rough" and not used. Plus another that I thought was ok that ended up failing in an 029. I'm running two others with no problems yet. They were noticeably better than the aforementioned junk ones.
China is a nuclear nation; they can make a bearing. The quality control and consistency is the issue.


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## BuckthornBonnie (May 21, 2017)

Both 6202 and 6203


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## TimTaylor (May 21, 2017)

tbohn said:


> I would think it would not fire if it was flooded enough to create an incompressible fluid situation. Mine floods with one extra pull on choke. My guess would be a defective bearing or a loose chunk of carbon. How many tanks have you put through it? Looks like a lot of buildup on the top of the piston.


That was my thinking as well. The bearings looked and felt very good. It has had ten or twelve tanks through it. I was just thinking that I had sorted all of the niggles. 

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## TimTaylor (May 21, 2017)

BuckthornBonnie said:


> Curious failure--- flywheel side bearing went first? I've had two Chinese 6203s that were "rough" and not used. Plus another that I thought was ok that ended up failing in an 029. I'm running two others with no problems yet. They were noticeably better than the aforementioned junk ones.
> China is a nuclear nation; they can make a bearing. The quality control and consistency is the issue.


Does anybody think that fuel quality could have contributed? I would have expected the piston to show first effects of any fuel quality issues but I did hear yesterday that the place I buy fuel from has had some quality issues. 

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## davhul (May 21, 2017)

My 660 bearings felt a little crunchy when spinning them by hand. I washed them out with carb cleaner until I felt good about it then lubed them. I already had the seals popped out at the time. Then put the cases together relieved the preload on the bearings, then installed the seals. I haven't had any problems with that one and it has maybe 10 gallons through it last I checked with no problems other than it has frayed 2 oem elasto ropes. So I plan on installing a oem rope bushing 1110 084 9102 and see if it helps. 
Did you relieve the preload in your bearings after the case was together? Not sure if that could have been your problem but could have it they were tight.


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## TimTaylor (May 21, 2017)

I did relieve the preload, but didn't actually measure any backlash in the crank,I thought because the bearings were tight and new. I'm second guessing everything, and now I'm wondering if maybe you are right. Also wondering if maybe I didn't center the crank exactly. These are all things I have done before and although I have had engines fail it's mostly been because I've reused something well past it's use by rather than installation error but a bad day can still happen I guess. I have ordered another crank and bearings so I can have another go. 

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## davhul (May 21, 2017)

The sideload is important. But Being perfectly centered isn't as important as long as it's not rubbing the case.


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## TimTaylor (May 21, 2017)

No rubbing marks in the case. I'm working at the moment but next time I get a chance I will split the case and have a really good look at it all because it looks like ground up metal and oil splashed around the crankcase.The failure has been happening for a while and the bearing obviously put up a fight and that makes me think more and more that it wasn't the bearing itself at fault. Built it on a clean bench on an old table cloth but it might get rebuilt on the kitchen table.I think this failure will have to go down as assembly error. Somehow. 

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## Bedford T (May 21, 2017)

A suggestion you might rinse it out well before you crack it. Might give you needed perspective.


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## TimTaylor (May 21, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> A suggestion you might rinse it out well before you crack it. Might give you needed perspective.


I thought that too but I also thought that I might rinse out any clues. I have an old dishwasher in my workshop that works well with water based degreaser so it will be very clean before it goes back together

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## Stihlofadeal64 (May 22, 2017)

BuckthornBonnie said:


> Curious failure--- flywheel side bearing went first? I've had two Chinese 6203s that were "rough" and not used. Plus another that I thought was ok that ended up failing in an 029. I'm running two others with no problems yet. They were noticeably better than the aforementioned junk ones.
> China is a nuclear nation; they can make a bearing. The quality control and consistency is the issue.



I've not had good fortune with the chinese bearings. My MS390 kit had bearing failure after around 5 tanks. For me these bearings will always be replaced with better quality bearings.


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## TimTaylor (May 23, 2017)

Well i think I have it figured out. When I cleaned the piston I saw a ring just in from the edge. Under a magnifying glass that ring is beaten into the piston. The same ring appears in the jug. And under a magnifying glass you can see detonation damage outside of that ring on the outer circle of the piston. Someone else mentioned it as well but I guess I didn't see it at the time but the squish is fine at the edges of the piston and the combustion area slopes the wrong way from there in towards the centre, it actually gets lower and its been hitting the piston. Which pretty obviously sorted the crank bearings out .









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## TimTaylor (May 23, 2017)

My question is can I hone that raised bit out and put in a new piston and go again or does the hard bore extend into the combustion area?

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## Bedford T (May 24, 2017)

you dont want to damage the cylinder coating. its hard to be certain but a new piston and gasket would be the first step and assume its the path of least resistance. i cant remember but the 440 kit might have been the one with the piston with the arrow pointing the wrong way. i am using that piston with it turned. send them photos and ask for some love, but go ahead and order it. not worth a wait.

did you mill any on the cylinder base before you got started?


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## TimTaylor (May 24, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> you dont want to damage the cylinder coating. its hard to be certain but a new piston and gasket would be the first step and assume its the path of least resistance. i cant remember but the 440 kit might have been the one with the piston with the arrow pointing the wrong way. i am using that piston with it turned. send them photos and ask for some love, but go ahead and order it. not worth a wait.
> 
> did you mill any on the cylinder base before you got started?


No I didn't have to mill the cylinder and the squish measured about as low as I would want to go with the gasket in place (020 squish) . I do still have the original jug and piston(50mm) so I might use that to run in the new crank until I'm sure I have it all right.

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## TimTaylor (May 24, 2017)

And yeah I've already ordered the bits and more.I'm not really someone who argues over a few dollars especially when I'm not sure whose fault it is

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## Bedford T (May 24, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> And yeah I've already ordered the bits and more.I'm not really someone who argues over a few dollars especially when I'm not sure whose fault it is
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


I was talking about waiting, but you are not.


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## tbohn (May 24, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> My question is can I hone that raised bit out and put in a new piston and go again or does the hard bore extend into the combustion area?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L22 using Tapatalk


I had the same raised ring on the squish band on a ms440 52mm cylinder. I swapped it out with a 50mm.
There are people that do turn the squish band to square it up.

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## TimTaylor (May 24, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> I was talking about waiting, but you are not.


Well sort of.it takes a month or so to get bits out here, sometimes more sometimes less. So I always have more than one project on the go. Haven't split the cases yet, mostly cause I was a bit gutted and I wanted to get over that. Never good to be emotional working on a saw. But it'll come right that's part of the fun of it

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## TimTaylor (Jun 9, 2017)

Parts arrived today so I split the cases. Best guess is it started at the big end. It's hard to see in the photos but the big end of the con rod has turned blue and the rollers are all gone, it's just the brass cage in there.that would explain the metal and the damage in the crank mains. I'm pretty certain that I caused it with the piston hitting the top of the cylinder. So I have put it back together with new parts and the 50mm jug and piston, and I'll run it tomorrow. I'm terrible at remembering to take photos as I go but I'll video it if and when it runs tomorrow. My new golden rule. Never assume new parts will just fit together. Measure everything.












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## TimTaylor (Jun 9, 2017)

It started second pull. Idled well. I warmed it up and then lowered the idle slightly as you would see if I could put the video up like I said I would. I screwed in the high speed jet till it four stroked in the cut and then out another 16th of a turn to make sure it's nice and rich to run in. I run that tank through cutting small stuff and letting it idle heaps. No full revs yet. First impressions are that it doesn't vib as much, and although the throttle response is slower, it has the same power and maybe better top end. Silly to try and make comparisons on a saw with all new bits but it'll be interesting to see how it goes as it breaks in. 
I also ran it on it's sides and upside down and the revs never change, and it ran the tank almost dry, although I stopped it before that happened. 

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## TimTaylor (Jun 10, 2017)

Here's the vid.hopefullyhttp://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/593b968a97ac9/videocompress-051-Untitledvideot_20170610_151054.mp4


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## BuckthornBonnie (Jun 10, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Parts arrived today so I split the cases. Best guess is it started at the big end. It's hard to see in the photos but the big end of the con rod has turned blue and the rollers are all gone, it's just the brass cage in there.that would explain the metal and the damage in the crank mains. I'm pretty certain that I caused it with the piston hitting the top of the cylinder. So I have put it back together with new parts and the 50mm jug and piston, and I'll run it tomorrow. I'm terrible at remembering to take photos as I go but I'll video it if and when it runs tomorrow. My new golden rule. Never assume new parts will just fit together. Measure everything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice pics. Interesting failure for sure.


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## Bedford T (Jun 13, 2017)

check out huztl website


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## TimTaylor (Jun 13, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> check out huztl website


Do you mean the sale on kits?
I'm going to run this 440 in nice and gently and then big bore it with the bits I have already ordered. But I might have just ordered a 372 kit..

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## Bedford T (Jun 13, 2017)

Yep, I made it clear the other two posts. Guess I just got in a hurry. Trying to get the word out so everyone could buy at a big discount before time runs out. Some of us it would not matter we would just buy again. I know someone who bought for this fall when they had more time. Too busy now.


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## TimTaylor (Jun 13, 2017)

I'm sitting here trying to justify buying a 660 kit as well. Holding out for when they bring out another big husky kit.

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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 13, 2017)

The 660 kit is my favorite. I got another one the other day from HL.


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## Bedford T (Jun 13, 2017)

I suspected farmertec made their stuff. HL knows it's good stuff. How does the crank operate in the cross cylinder. Does it bump and move freely?


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 13, 2017)

I recently heard the cylinders will be soon. But I like the screws are labeled on this one. I personally haven't got that far on it yet. But I think I heard something that is did alittle


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## tbohn (Jun 13, 2017)

The Huztl kits are 25-30% off right now on their website. 440 is $135 + ship.

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## TimTaylor (Jun 17, 2017)

I took the rebuilt 440 out today and cut some big old willow, 25 or 30" stuff, just to give it something soft to work on, and put a few tanks through it. It started well, and idled well and behaved itself very well. It's getting stronger, but I think it will need the big bore to get anywhere near my 048, even though by ear it has more revs. It has lots less weight though and with the 25" bar it's balanced very well, so I'm happy so far.

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## BuckthornBonnie (Jun 17, 2017)

Nice. Run it all day and you'll feel the difference between the 048 for sure.


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## 94SRUNNER (Jun 18, 2017)

I took advantage of this sale and ordered the 440 last night. I'll be looking forward to this build and am thankful this thread is here! 



tbohn said:


> The Huztl kits are 25-30% off right now on their website. 440 is $135 + ship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## Bedford T (Jun 18, 2017)

94SRUNNER said:


> I took advantage of this sale and ordered the 440 last night. I'll be looking forward to this build and am thankful this thread is here!


There are YouTube videos on assembly of these kits. The models are similar so putting the engine together on a 660 is very similar to 440. The oiler will look different but it goes in the same place. And we are here for you. No question during a build is dumb. Ask and you will get a bunch of help. Share pictures and your experiences we love ever minute of it.


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## 94SRUNNER (Jun 18, 2017)

Thank you! I found your videos last night and watch for quite some time. I appreciate you taking the time to put them together. 

Most of what I have read points to that the quality is pretty good on these clones. A couple of key parts I have been wondering about. The gaskets (crank case, cylinder, and exhaust), the ignition coil, the rubber hoses (fuel, oil, and impulse), and the bears and bearing seals. How is their quality?



Bedford T said:


> There are YouTube videos on assembly of these kits. The models are similar so putting the engine together on a 660 is very similar to 440. The oiler will look different but it goes in the same place. And we are here for you. No question during a build is dumb. Ask and you will get a bunch of help. Share pictures and your experiences we love ever minute of it.


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## Bedford T (Jun 18, 2017)

94SRUNNER said:


> Thank you! I found your videos last night and watch for quite some time. I appreciate you taking the time to put them together.
> 
> Most of what I have read points to that the quality is pretty good on these clones. A couple of key parts I have been wondering about. The gaskets (crank case, cylinder, and exhaust), the ignition coil, the rubber hoses (fuel, oil, and impulse), and the bears and bearing seals. How is their quality?


Yes sir. There are things that depending on the model are changed to oem. Like the decomp valve. For some reason the farmertec pops every pull and a oem pops when it starts. Earlier we suspected everything. Rather than understand what was going on people would run to the OEM store 

The fun in these kits is the journey you will wind up way wiser about 2 cycle. I know a guy that built these just so he could show people how to build them and he never actually could start them. Because he was more into the movie star thing. My point is they mean different things to different people. For most of us it's about building our own awesome saw and that's the way it turned out for me.

I would tell you to order extra oil seals and gaskets sets when you order your saw in case you tear it or choose to remove the oil seal and replace it after you install the crank. Get a tube of dirko and some Stihl gear Head grease and some pressure fluid (5$) loctite 243/242 and some 2cycle oil to wipe your jug with after washing it in gas and before inserting your rings

And have some fun.

Betcha can't build just one!


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## Bedford T (Jun 18, 2017)

Edit: to do it right


Oh my I forgot. Buy a mityvac before you buy the saw. You have to do the tests don't let anyone tell you otherwise. My saws work and will continue to work. They all were tested


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## dswensen (Jun 18, 2017)

There are lots of opinions out there, take them all with a grain of salt. All my Huztl kit saws (3 of them) run and will continue to run. None were tested with a MightyVac. For each of my kits, I ran right out to the OEM store to replace the decomp valve. Not only does the one shipped with the kit have an exit port that is too large (which is why they close on every pull rather than when the engine pops), but the black end button came off of one of mine. That was enough for me to replace them all, since the valve stem can fall into the cylinder without the button being there.

Anyway, lots of opinions on here, including mine. Take what you want, leave the rest. Cylinder base gasket or not? Gasket sealer on the case gasket or not? Kit-supplied spark plug or not? On and on. Also, lots of people on here proclaim to be experts and that their way is the only way. Take that or leave it too. Lots of good opinions on here - some are even correct (in MY opinion). 

As they say "your mileage may vary"

It's your kit, do it the way you want to.


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## TreeJoe (Jun 18, 2017)

Lots of nasty people too.


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## TimTaylor (Jun 18, 2017)

TreeJoe said:


> Lots of nasty people too.


I didn't think any of that was nasty, everybody here behaves themselves very well most of the time, it was just stated that we all tend to give free advice very freely, and that the value of that advice must be weighed by the recipient. 
It could be worth a lot more than you pay for it but you have to judge for yourself. 

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## Bedford T (Jun 18, 2017)

I think

I this case I was asked a question and I answered it. I was not giving advice freely.

The kits are fun.


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## TimTaylor (Jun 18, 2017)

Point was I didn't think anybody was being nasty. I meant free advice wasn't paid for that's all. This site is for fun and free answers, and occasional banter....

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## Bedford T (Jun 18, 2017)

No one anywhere has said Happy Father's day. Here on AS that I have seen. HFD


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## TimTaylor (Jun 18, 2017)

It's not fathers day in NZ . But happy fathers day to you where it is. 

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## Bedford T (Jun 18, 2017)

No kidding? Sorry. Guess that's why you don't say things like that in mixed company. You never know, i will try my best to keep that in mind


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## TimTaylor (Jun 18, 2017)

Yeah I don't know why we celebrate it on different days, maybe it falls on a national holiday somewhere? And it's Monday morning here as well, almost time for a coffee.

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## dswensen (Jun 18, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Oh my I forgot. Buy a mityvac before you buy the saw. You have to do the tests don't let anyone tell you otherwise. My saws work and will continue to work. They all were tested





Bedford T said:


> I this case I was asked a question and I answered it. I was not giving advice freely.



You WERE giving advice and it was wrong.

Bedford, I have been down this road with you before, as have others here. I'm not going to reply to you anymore. You have made some very nice videos to help people with their kits. You have run interference with Huztl on a number of issues. For these things, you are to be commended. But come on man, some self-awareness that you are not God's gift to this cause would sure be nice.

Since you always have to have the last word, I know you'll be along to respond shortly. Don't let me down.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 18, 2017)

Really the only part I don't trust is the AM wrist pin bearing. As that can cause major failure to the saw and it's a known common failure. So I'm going back in 2 of my 660's and replacing them. This is after I've seen members on this and the other forum report and show pics of the AM bearing fail. 
When it fails there's no warning. Atleast with a seal or gasket failure the saw won't tune or act right first.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 18, 2017)

Personally I never finish a kit or a topend rebuild without a pressure/vacc test. That's for my peace of mind. Is it required? Of course not


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## OTAlucard (Jun 18, 2017)

X 66 Stang347 X said:


> Personally I never finish a kit or a topend rebuild without a pressure/vacc test. That's for my peace of mind. Is it required? Of course not



How much is the oem bearing. I'll replace mine also


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 18, 2017)

I think around 10-15 bucks.


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## 94SRUNNER (Jun 18, 2017)

This is another component that sounds like it will be worth using OEM. Nice tip. Thanks.



X 66 Stang347 X said:


> Really the only part I don't trust is the AM wrist pin bearing. As that can cause major failure to the saw and it's a known common failure. So I'm going back in 2 of my 660's and replacing them. This is after I've seen members on this and the other forum report and show pics of the AM bearing fail.
> When it fails there's no warning. Atleast with a seal or gasket failure the saw won't tune or act right first.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 18, 2017)

No problem. At the time I didn't know but I kinda don't mind pulling the 
top end. I want to see how everything is doing anyway.


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## OTAlucard (Jun 18, 2017)

X 66 Stang347 X said:


> No problem. At the time I didn't know but I kinda don't mind pulling the
> top end. I want to see how everything is doing anyway.




It might be funny that these saws might last as long as the real thing for a fraction of the price. 

If you don't mind me asking what oil mix are you running.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 18, 2017)

In my big saws I run 32:1 klotz kl200. 40:1 would also be a good choice with most good quality oils. I've found almost everyone has their favorite oil so keep with what you can get easy and like.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 18, 2017)

I feel they will last. I used a mix of oem and the AM parts.


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## Ozhoo (Jun 18, 2017)

OTAlucard said:


> How much is the oem bearing. I'll replace mine also



9512 003 3281 $6.24 from your friendly local dealer.


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## TreeJoe (Jun 19, 2017)

dswensen said:


> You WERE giving advice and it was wrong.
> 
> Bedford, I have been down this road with you before, as have others here. I'm not going to reply to you anymore. You have made some very nice videos to help people with their kits. You have run interference with Huztl on a number of issues. For these things, you are to be commended. But come on man, some self-awareness that you are not God's gift to this cause would sure be nice.
> 
> Since you always have to have the last word, I know you'll be along to respond shortly. Don't let me down.



So making helpful videos does not qualify this guy from making statements like test your work? You maybe could not afford the tester and have grown a nice big bin of parts that you can switch around until you find the fault. Fixing a saw has gotta be like building one and a tester is the smart move and should not be a guessing game. Puts you in the drivers seat wondering if that tank vent is working or the seals are leaking, He must use the smoke he his blowing here to test his saws. I have been lurking around and I have yet to see you offer the group anything worth wild. I think more people would speak up if they were not ripped apart and the forum would get better. I appreciate people that help others. You are going to quit responding to him. Oh my god what a threat.lol


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## TreeJoe (Jun 19, 2017)

Just the facts. You didn't answer the question hotshot.


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## BuckthornBonnie (Jun 19, 2017)

There's more history to this story than present in this thread or this site. 
There's been an "air" about it that hasn't been as bad recently, but is still very much around. People have every right to critique Bed T and others as it pertains to this topic and his use of tone in posts. Nice of you to defend, but please understand the history.
To your point regarding more people posting info. I agree, but know that the very person you defend is guilty of the same accusation.


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## TreeJoe (Jun 19, 2017)

BuckthornBonnie said:


> There's more history to this story than present in this thread or this site.
> There's been an "air" about it that hasn't been as bad recently, but is still very much around. People have every right to critique Bed T and others as it pertains to this topic and his use of tone in posts. Nice of you to defend, but please understand the history.
> To your point regarding more people posting info. I agree, but know that the very person you defend is guilty of the same accusation.



I see that he recommended a pressure test and the guy rips him for it. You might be to quick to gang up on a fella. In fact I don't normally shoot my mouth off but sometimes it tough to watch people get bullied and I think that is the case here. I have watched as people have ganged up on him for no reason I can see and I read carefully. I read 10 posts today and had nothing to offer and then I see this. Its disgusting school yard type stuff.

If a pressure and vacuum test was harmful then this type rhetoric might have been called for but it is not. Testing your work is not a bad practice, its smart like doing a site survey. From what I have seen his tone has been low key and defensive because its been one sided. It all caught my eye because he was so intent in sharing these kits with everyone and sharing information, single minded. I have seen him cussed almost over near nothing, from my angle frankly I am impressed he has never been viscous with anyone, he must be Quaker

This is creepy talk, sir don't let this people run you over. It is not right.


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## BuckthornBonnie (Jun 19, 2017)

Naaa. Not ganging up, just presenting facts. Admittedly there hasn't been much posted here recently, but it was there and definitely is remembered.

Do you frequent other saw forums?

P/v testing is fine to recommend, by the way. Let's not go straw man here.


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## TimTaylor (Jun 19, 2017)

Before I start a fight with anyone I like to walk a mile in their shoes



Then if a fight breaks out I'm a Mile away, and they have no shoes. 


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## TimTaylor (Jun 19, 2017)

What I like about this site is that compared to others I've seen, (and yes I've seen the"banter" referred to) this site is friendly and accepting, mostly. I won't judge on past events if I'm not judged. It is easy to take offence through things written and for all I know that might be justified but what if the intention was actually good? I know I irritate the stuffing out of people I don't get along with but I don't actually mean to. Maybe the same is true here? My two cents, 

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## BuckthornBonnie (Jun 19, 2017)

AS has some of the most sordid history one can find relating to saws. From some of the original debates with founding members to husky/stihl to port wars, it's been rough. 

Tim---I'd like to think that it has run its course at this point, but like any internet forum, there will be conflicts at times. The problem is that this site has more content than all the others combined. I'm a member on other forums but for straight-up learning this is still the place to read.


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## TimTaylor (Jun 19, 2017)

On a different note, my 440 still goes, and well, but it does now have a very slight hesitation or flat spot off idle. Has anybody else seen that? I've re tuned the carb and it didn't change. There are lots of new bits on the saw. P&C, carb, crank, etc, but to me it feels like the carb is fueling too much or too little when the throttle is opened, it's worse when the throttle is opened fast. 

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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 19, 2017)

The carb on mine wouldn't tune. So I had a 460 carb laying around I used instead. Does your stumble and puff any smoke when you hit the trigger? I tune my L a little leaner than most probably do. 
When warmed up I lean the L out til it's on lean drop off then richen up a little to get a good crips throttle.


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## dswensen (Jun 19, 2017)

My 044 kit had a carb that has a choke plate that binds no matter what I do to correct it. (note to self - I had offered this same information before on this thread - apparently someone didn't go very far back before condemning me as a "non-helper") I ordered a new Chinese carb and have had no problems since. I have heard a lot of spotty problems here with the Chinese knock-off carbs. If you can and want to , order a new one to see if you can solve it quickly - they're pretty inexpensive. OR, you can mess with this one for a while and be HUGELY satisfied when you get it to work right.


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## TimTaylor (Jun 19, 2017)

I do have a genuine 460 carb I will try. I normally do exactly what you describe to tune I'm just a bit sensitive about this saw because it needed a new crank 5 hours in. I'll get over it but the carb suggestion sounds good, the first carb flooded the engine and didn't function at all. 

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## TimTaylor (Jun 19, 2017)

It idles very well though, as nice as any of my genuine saws

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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 19, 2017)

On the 460 carb it tunes good on the high. And on the Low it'll tune but after about 20sec of idling it'll slowly load up. But my saw never idles that long so it's never noticed.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 19, 2017)

As soon as I get some good service I'll try to post a Huztl 440 vid with the 460 carb. As far as info and help goes I try to help who ever needs or wants it. I know little about husky's but if it's a Stihl I have the info or can get it. 
But on some things I don't mention how I do it because it's not by "the book" and some will criticize that's not the way to do it. As everyone knows there's several ways to do almost anything. 
How many are working on a 440 build right now? Here's a real 440 I worked on last week that had a pto seal leaking and the base gasket leak. Well it ended up screwing the topend. A pressure and vacc test showed the faults. I put a BB kit on it.


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## BuckthornBonnie (Jun 19, 2017)

I have a 440 on the docket in a few weeks. Complete rebuild w a different set of cases and a Meteor. Fyi-- oem piston was $72ish from dealer. Also still waiting on the gasket kit. 
That cylinder seem ok?


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 19, 2017)

The BB cylinder was a nwp I got for a good price. It did look pretty good I just touched the port bevels with some 220 grit.


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Jun 19, 2017)

Well my AM440 test vid must have got deleted. 
Here's pulling the seal out the real 440 last week.


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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

So I went to run the 440 again the other day. Filled it with fuel and oil, checked and adjusted the chain, put a piece of old carpet in the back of the Landcruiser, and put the 440 next to the farmertec 372 I just built. It didn't like that at all, when I got to the wood pile it had filled the cases with fuel again! 
So the 372 got more work and the 440 went back on the bench. 
And my brain went to work. 
Most other chainsaws don't run pressurised tanks as far as I can see,.just good vent systems, and the carb on the Stihl copy obviously doesn't play well with pressure..... So I modified the old tank vent I had so that it doesn't seal either way, but slowly let's air out. Then I put it back together and started it up. Once it was warm I had to retune it but out seems to run better, the dead spot has gone and it transitions better to high rpm. I know it will dribble fuel when it's upside down but that's better than emptying it's guts all the time. 
Isn't it?
Will doing this cause any other problems?

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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

We have had bad farmertec vents do you have an oem?


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## BuckthornBonnie (Jul 1, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> So I went to run the 440 again the other day. Filled it with fuel and oil, checked and adjusted the chain, put a piece of old carpet in the back of the Landcruiser, and put the 440 next to the farmertec 372 I just built. It didn't like that at all, when I got to the wood pile it had filled the cases with fuel again!
> So the 372 got more work and the 440 went back on the bench.
> And my brain went to work.
> Most other chainsaws don't run pressurised tanks as far as I can see,.just good vent systems, and the carb on the Stihl copy obviously doesn't play well with pressure..... So I modified the old tank vent I had so that it doesn't seal either way, but slowly let's air out. Then I put it back together and started it up. Once it was warm I had to retune it but out seems to run better, the dead spot has gone and it transitions better to high rpm. I know it will dribble fuel when it's upside down but that's better than emptying it's guts all the time.
> ...


Well, it's probably not good to have any fuel leaks due to a fire risk, but I don't think it would cause any running issues. 
Bed T is right--- got a different vent?
Also--- how's that needle look in the carb?


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## BuckthornBonnie (Jul 1, 2017)

X 66 Stang347 X said:


> Well my AM440 test vid must have got deleted.
> Here's pulling the seal out the real 440 last week.



Gotta love using those pullers...nice vid!


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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

BuckthornBonnie said:


> Well, it's probably not good to have any fuel leaks due to a fire risk, but I don't think it would cause any running issues.
> Bed T is right--- got a different vent?
> Also--- how's that needle look in the carb?


This was the second farmertec vent and the third carb. Although I tried an old genuine Stihl carb , it ran very well on the first carb but for this problem. The second carb was a non runner and the third one fixed the problem for a couple of weeks. I have rebuilt the second carb and I will try that again with a Stihl vent but the farmertec vent let air in and not out just like the Stihl one. I think you are right and its a problem with the needle in the carb but the pressure in the tank gets really high, and its the only saw design I've seen that let's that happen......unless I'm missing something?

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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

You may want to fix the vent first and then look at the problem again.


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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

I think that's what I have done, hopefully, by getting rid of the pressure in the tank. 

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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

Problem for me is that I like old saws. This design is the most modern I have apart from a couple of ms200t s . I looked at the vent system they have and although it's more complicated, it let's pressure go both ways. Pressure doesn't build up in the tank. I'm curious about if a genuine Stihl ms440 builds pressure inside it's fuel tank? 

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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

When I test the fuel circuit. I expect the tank to hold pressure and release slowly on vacuum and I know that all is well on the tank. Testing the pulse is part of that routine but has nothing to do with the tank.


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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

How much pressure? Surely it should let it out above a certain pressure. I'm wondering if our crappy fuel is partly to blame, shaking the saw builds pressure, even on a cold day, greater than 5 psi, and that has got to be rough on the carb needle surely?

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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

Stihl manual says 10pounds. I will double-check that and correct if it's wrong. There is a warning about going too high. I will go read it now and refresh


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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

Good point actually. 
Funny how I never thought of getting the original Stihl manual, but it's the first thing I did for the 372xp. 
If it's 10 psi then I guess I still don't have a good carb. I'll do some pressure testing today and see what pressure the rebuilt carb resists.


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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

Put some pressure on it and put in a bowl of water and look for bubbles


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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

Looking over the different carbs 8# might be safer in general.


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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Put some pressure on it and put in a bowl of water and look for bubbles


Will do. 

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## TimTaylor (Jul 1, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Looking over the different carbs 8# might be safer in general.


Sorry, don't understand.

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## Bedford T (Jul 1, 2017)

pounds of pressure. check your messages in a few minutes


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## TimTaylor (Jul 2, 2017)

Ok, well the carb blows bubbles at 4 to 4.5psi plus or minus the accuracy of my gauge. The others are close to that figure. That is pressurised through the fuel line. The fuel line itself leaks at 6psi ish around the carb pipe, depending on how I hold my tongue. And the tank holds pressure to above 10psi with a genuine Stihl vent, pressurised through the fuel delivery line. 

I've gone back to the modified vent, (I just cut a tiny piece of the green rubber seal) and the tank holds zero pressure. Filled the tank and shook the saw then left it in the sun(not hot today maybe 14deg c) and it seemed fine. 

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## Ozhoo (Jul 2, 2017)

TimTaylor said:


> Ok, well the carb blows bubbles at 4 to 4.5psi plus or minus the accuracy....



You need to get the carb to hold pressure. 7psi at a minimum. With fuel in the carb, start adding pressure and drop it in a bowl of water. You'll likely have leaking around the diaphragms so pull it back out and tighten the screws. Retest... if you see bubbles in the carb throat, you need to check the inlet needle/spring/metering lever. Keep fixing and testing till you get the carb to hold pressure. 

If the fuel line leaks at the carb under 7psi, replace it. Reinstall an unmolested vent.


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## Mac&Homelite (Jul 2, 2017)

I've been chasing my tail with the same problem on my ms361. I eventually concluded that something is either wrong with the carb, but more likely the kit and my solution to the flooding was lowering the metering lever to quit a bit below it's "normal" position. So far it has solved my flooding problem. It no longer floods when sitting after being run. I think I lowered it around 1/16 or so below the carb top. Give it a try, I bet it will solve your problem.


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## Bedford T (Jul 2, 2017)

The carbs can be troublesome. I have been chasing a problem with my ms380. I am on 5th carb. Once I get it running right I will be able to go back to orginial carb and determine excatly what the problem is. That means 3 bad carbs looking for a good one. I think #5 will be the charm the seller seems helpful. The last carb the jet was not drilled put. I found problems in all 3


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## TimTaylor (Jul 2, 2017)

Mac&Homelite said:


> I've been chasing my tail with the same problem on my ms361. I eventually concluded that something is either wrong with the carb, but more likely the kit and my solution to the flooding was lowering the metering lever to quit a bit below it's "normal" position. So far it has solved my flooding problem. It no longer floods when sitting after being run. I think I lowered it around 1/16 or so below the carb top. Give it a try, I bet it will solve your problem.


Looks like I'm going to be learning more about carbs. Thank you.

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## blsnelling (Jul 3, 2017)

You have a carb issue, period. Stihl tank vents are true one-way valves and will allow significant pressure to build.


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## Bedford T (Jul 29, 2017)

The 070 kit is ready

http://www.huztl.net/Complete-Repai...er-Muffler-Carburetor-Handle-Bar-p584588.html


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## Mac&Homelite (Jul 29, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> The 070 kit is ready
> 
> http://www.huztl.net/Complete-Repai...er-Muffler-Carburetor-Handle-Bar-p584588.html


Have you ordered one yet?[emoji6]


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## tbohn (Jul 29, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> The 070 kit is ready
> 
> http://www.huztl.net/Complete-Repai...er-Muffler-Carburetor-Handle-Bar-p584588.html


Already pulled the trigger along with their bar and chain. Someone will have to start a build thread.


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## Bedford T (Jul 29, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Already pulled the trigger along with their bar and chain. Someone will have to start a build thread.


I have a thread started with pictures of the upgrade too. 

But start another. I got the fs120 project and I am not made out of money. Dang,


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## Bedford T (Jul 29, 2017)

Mac&Homelite said:


> Have you ordered one yet?[emoji6]



about you, you need one too

lol

we dont need much of an excuse. i wish i could afford to have two thing going on at the same time, to do what i am doing there are no AM parts, like for the shafts etc$$$$. 

i got a feeling this one we will need to collaborate on. (070) we will see


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## Bedford T (Jul 29, 2017)

tbohn said:


> Already pulled the trigger along with their bar and chain. Someone will have to start a build thread.


we can change the title, what every works best i am for.


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## Bedford T (Jul 29, 2017)

One thing I hope to show how the play occurs with the bearings. I have never held one so. Lot to learn


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## Bedford T (Jul 29, 2017)

I changed the name


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## DavinB18 (Nov 3, 2017)

I ordered a 440 kit and the cases and cylinder were assembled in the box. Did anyone else's kit come this way? Think I should take it apart to check their work?


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## Bedford T (Nov 3, 2017)

DavinB18 said:


> I ordered a 440 kit and the cases and cylinder were assembled in the box. Did anyone else's kit come this way? Think I should take it apart to check their work?


Are you sure? You mean the case was closed and the cylinder was installed on the case. No one else got that. I understand they took that opportunity away from you. I too would take it apart


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## DavinB18 (Nov 3, 2017)

Yep, case was pressed and screwed together, piston/rings in cylinder, cylinder bolted to case. I only looked at it real fast last night but the cylinder didn't look too great. I think I'll see if they will replace it once I get a chance to see what else might be missing in the kit.


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## Bedford T (Nov 3, 2017)

DavinB18 said:


> Yep, case was pressed and screwed together, piston/rings in cylinder, cylinder bolted to case. I only looked at it real fast last night but the cylinder didn't look too great. I think I'll see if they will replace it once I get a chance to see what else might be missing in the kit.


Why in the world would they do that? I would flip out. You bought a box of parts. So you can't put oem bearings in or circlips. Let us know what you do. I would give them hell


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## DavinB18 (Nov 4, 2017)

Here's some pics. Didn't get a chance to tear it down last night. Still need to look at the rest of the parts before I contact them. What email address was everyone using to contact Huztl again?


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## DavinB18 (Nov 4, 2017)

Not sure why pictures turned. They look normal on my computer!


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## Bedford T (Nov 4, 2017)

DavinB18 said:


> Here's some pics. Didn't get a chance to tear it down last night. Still need to look at the rest of the parts before I contact them. What email address was everyone using to contact Huztl again?


Use the website message system and take screenshots of message and system clock. The exhaust port is rough and I encourage you to replace the bearing. I have seen those assemblies fail.


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## EB Saw (Nov 4, 2017)

DavinB18 said:


> Here's some pics. Didn't get a chance to tear it down last night. Still need to look at the rest of the parts before I contact them. What email address was everyone using to contact Huztl again?


That exhaust port looks like it need some attention with a dremel. On another note, what have you guys been replacing with oem to make the saw more reliable, bearings, clips??


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## DavinB18 (Nov 4, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> Use the website message system and take screenshots of message and system clock. The exhaust port is rough and I encourage you to replace the bearing. I have seen those assemblies fail.


Will do, Thanks


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## DavinB18 (Nov 4, 2017)

EB Saw said:


> That exhaust port looks like it need some attention with a dremel. On another note, what have you guys been replacing with oem to make the saw more reliable, bearings, clips??


I will clean it up a bit if they don't replace it. I think I'll put in oem piston bearing, pin and circlips. I wonder if they'd make me send the cylinder back if they do replace it?


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## Ozhoo (Nov 4, 2017)

Holy hell, I've seen some crazy parts but that cylinder seems to have skipped a step in the manufacturing process  Someone was in a hurry to get back to their cubicle.


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## Bedford T (Nov 4, 2017)

Ozhoo said:


> Holy hell, I've seen some crazy parts but that cylinder seems to have skipped a step in the manufacturing process  Someone was in a hurry to get back to their cubicle.
> 
> View attachment 610701


They spray this stuff they think is nikasil, you know the stuff they coat pistons to protect on startup in the cylinders and they are convinced it's nikasil. But that's what you see peeling. I have personally seen those sets fail. I had no idea they were putting them together. That's why.

On the matter of cylinder return why would you want that? You will be taking that thing apart soon. They suffer a total failure. I thought it was bearing but now I think it's both cylinder bearing


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## DavinB18 (Nov 5, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> They spray this stuff they think is nikasil, you know the stuff they coat pistons to protect on startup in the cylinders and they are convinced it's nikasil. But that's what you see peeling. I have personally seen those sets fail. I had no idea they were putting them together. That's why.
> 
> On the matter of cylinder return why would you want that? You will be taking that thing apart soon. They suffer a total failure. I thought it was bearing but now I think it's both cylinder bearing


I'll have to see what they say. I sure don't want this cylinder but I'd use it after a bit of clean up until it dies, unless of course they make me send it back.


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## Bedford T (Nov 5, 2017)

DavinB18 said:


> I'll have to see what they say. I sure don't want this cylinder but I'd use it after a bit of clean up until it dies, unless of course they make me send it back.


Lol OMG.


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## Bedford T (Feb 12, 2018)

I got a source for a oem walbro hd-15 carb. Fully tuneable with a .70 fixed jet. I expect it to be affordable. If anyone is interested in 3 week I will have more info and would be happy to share it. wanna see it first.


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## David.M (Mar 8, 2018)

I received my Huztl MS440 kit yesterday. This is my first kit build chainsaw. Last night I started working on it and got the two crank case halves assembled over the crank. A few observations so far:

Shipping: I placed the order on 2/25/28 (late sunday night) and it arrived at my house in WA on 3/7/2018. 10 days(9 realistically). The shipping box appeared to have been dropped/smooshed in transit and had one or two slight punctures. I carefully went through all the contents and so far have found no damage to any parts inside.

Cylinder: There are a few burrs and rough edges in the intake and exhaust ports, I plan to clean these up with a dremel prior to installation. None of the burrs stick into the cylinder bore so as to interfere with the piston, but I plan to clean them up for better air flow and to eliminate the risk of them breaking off during use and causing damage to the cylinder/piston.

Assembling crank/crank case:
I wiped a little bit of 10w30 motor oil on the crank shaft seal surfaces to help prevent rolling a seal. I baked the two halves of the crank case in a pre-heated oven at 240 degrees for 15 minutes. Installed the crank in the flywheel side of the case first. It didn't slide in as easy as I expected it to. I used a rubber mallet gently at first with little effect. Then hit it harder with the rubber mallet. Still little effect. It wouldn't seat all the way. I flipped it over and tried to pop it back out so I could re-heat the case. But the bearing started to come out of the case instead. So a couple hits on the other side put the bearing back in the case.

I used the supplied case gasket, with no additional sealant on it.

I pulled the PTO side of the case out of the oven, and set that on by hand. I then used the case screws (the 3 around the crank) to seat the two case halves together. This pulled them together well, (including the first half that didn't seat properly when I did the first half) but the crank was not centered in the case and one of the counter-weights was rubbing slightly on the PTO side of the crank case. I used the rubber mallet to try to center the crank, but was unsuccessful. (And I cringed every time I hit the crank shaft with the mallet. I don't want to damage the crank shaft bearings.)

I then used the flywheel nut and a couple spacers(washer and the round end of a couple wrenches) to pull the crank towards center. I was concerned about how much torque I had to put on it, but I was able to get the crank shaft to shift over far enough so that the counter weight would not rub on the case.

I can now turn the crank by hand without it rubbing on the case. There is still some resistance, more than I expected, however I can turn it with my fingers on the PTO shaft. I think the resistance I'm feeling is from the flywheel side seal. The resistance feels smooth. (not rough or grinding).

More to follow....


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## Bedford T (Mar 8, 2018)

David.M said:


> I received my Huztl MS440 kit yesterday. This is my first kit build chainsaw. Last night I started working on it and got the two crank case halves assembled over the crank. A few observations so far:
> 
> Shipping: I placed the order on 2/25/28 (late sunday night) and it arrived at my house in WA on 3/7/2018. 10 days(9 realistically). The shipping box appeared to have been dropped/smooshed in transit and had one or two slight punctures. I carefully went through all the contents and so far have found no damage to any parts inside.
> 
> ...


The resistance is likely from the new seals. 

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## Bedford T (Mar 8, 2018)

I forgot to say it's really great they did not send out all those faulty cylinders with peeling coatings. Sent them assembled likely to hide the fact, but of course it was evident looking into the ports. So glad to hear that is no longer an issue. Strong running saw when it's right

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 9, 2018)

I worked on the MS440 for a few hours last night.

Cylinder: After looking at it closer, most of what I initially thought were burrs, was just light reflecting off of chamfered edges around the port openings. I touched up one of them with my Dremel but left the rest alone.

I spent about 30 minutes at the bench grinder grinding down the shaft diameter one a stihl wrench/torx combo tool so that it would be narrow enough to fit through the cylinder holes to tighten the cylinder bolts.

Base gasket: My kit included two pieces of base gasket. Both identical, metal. They measured about .014" thickness each. I only installed one, using three-bond 1184 on it also.

Got the cylinder installed and everything looks good there.

Oiler: The oiler pump/assembly piece has two bolts that hold it in place. While tightening, the bottom bolt started to strip out on me =( I got the top bolt tightened well, and gently put as much tension on the bottom one as I felt comfortable with to prevent completely stripping it out. I'm hoping this doesn't cause problems later. It feels like the oiler assembly is secured well.

Chain tensioner assembly: In other assembly videos online the gear piece with a screwdriver slot is a silver/brass part. Mine was black, and would not fit. It was too big. I compared with the ms660 kit that I have, and it was an exact match. I believe my 440 kit was shipped with the 660 chain tensioner. And unfortunately it doesn't fit. I tried to modify it to work, but that didn't work either. I will contact huztl about this and get replacement parts.

Muffler: muffler install went well. However the kit does not include heat reflector tape for under the muffler. I plan to order something to help with heat under there.

Flywheel: Flywheel installed easy. I didn't mess with changing timing on the flywheel key.

AV mounts: I wiped a little bit of 10W30 motor oil on the rubber mounts before pressing them in by hand and this helped a LOT. There is one small AV rubber piece that goes just below the coil that was still difficult. I tried the string method, and it popped in on my first try with using both string and a little bit of oil.


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## David.M (Mar 9, 2018)

Also, I didn't notice any signs of surface coatings flaking in the cylinder.


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## David.M (Mar 9, 2018)

Current progress


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## Ozhoo (Mar 9, 2018)

David.M said:


> Oiler: The oiler pump/assembly piece has two bolts that hold it in place. While tightening, the bottom bolt started to strip out on me =( I got the top bolt tightened well, and gently put as much tension on the bottom one as I felt comfortable with to prevent completely stripping it out. I'm hoping this doesn't cause problems later. It feels like the oiler assembly is secured well.



You shouldn't be having that problem. Did you use the oiler as a stop for the case bearing?


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## Bedford T (Mar 9, 2018)

I had a similar problem with the screws. One of the heads stripped off. Those 4mm screws are a problem in the kit. Not enough room to twist out the stud that was left. Ended up with a larger 5mm hex head cut into it.

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 9, 2018)

No, I did not use the oil pump as a stop for the case bearing. 

It is possible that it didn't strip, but rather the oiler bound and then released as it was seating, which felt to me like the screw stripping out. At the time I just assumed it was starting to strip and opted to leave it partially tightened rather than tighten it further and risk completely stripping it out. I will back the screw out tonight and take a closer look at the threads.

I tightened the top bolt with more torque than I put on the lower bolt when it felt like it stripped. I didn't feel like I was putting excessive torque on it.


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## Ozhoo (Mar 9, 2018)

David.M said:


> No, I did not use the oil pump as a stop for the case bearing..



You'll find out when you go to put the clutch drum on. That bearing needs to set perfect otherwise the combination of spacer, washer, clutch, clutch washer and e-clip wont fit on the crank.


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## David.M (Mar 9, 2018)

Ok. Will find out tonight if the spacer, washer, clutch, clutch washer, and e-clip fit on the crank.


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## Bedford T (Mar 9, 2018)

He is just attempting to help. They left that out of the directions.

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 9, 2018)

Yep, no worries from me, I appreciate the help =)


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## David.M (Mar 10, 2018)

So I got the ms440 about 80 percent together today. All the parts fit on the PTO shaft and the clip went in. Initially the clutch drum was rubbing on the oil pump output line. A few taps with a hammer moved the output line and freed the interference. However i noticed that the top of the pump assembly cracked off around the upper bolt. So I need to order a new oil pump now. 

Then I did a compression test.....90psi. ugh. I stuck some solder in the spark plugs hole to check squish. The solder was about .038 diameter initially. It did not appear to get squished at all. So squish is at least .038". 
My kit came with two metal base gaskets, 0.014" thick each. I installed just one gasket with 1184 sealant. I don't have access to a lathe or mill to trim the bottom of the cylinder base. Does anyone have an idea of how much compression I can expect to gain by removing the .014" base gasket?


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## David.M (Mar 10, 2018)

Clutch drum contacting oil pump output line. This prevented me from getting the clip on the PTO shaft. After fixing this interference all the parts and the clip went on the PTO shaft


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## Bedford T (Mar 10, 2018)

David.M said:


> Clutch drum contacting oil pump output line. This prevented me from getting he clip on the PTO shaft. After fixing this interference all the parts and the clip went on the PTO shaftView attachment 638375


It would have cut it. Good detail.

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 10, 2018)

Which part would you have cut? the clutch drum or the oil output tube? I used a hammer and a 3/8" socket extension as a "punch" to hit the tube in the right area to bend it lower so it wouldn't contact the clutch drum. This seemed to work well for me.


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## Bedford T (Mar 10, 2018)

David.M said:


> Which part would you have cut? the clutch drum or the oil output tube? I used a hammer and a 3/8" socket extension as a "punch" to hit the tube in the right area to bend it lower so it wouldn't contact the clutch drum. This seemed to work well for me.


What I meant.
My clutch drum cut the arm nearly in half and if you had not checked yours, yours would have too. I thought mine was right. Must have been some settlement. Your Looks great. 

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 11, 2018)

Ok, gotchya. I thought you said "I would have cut it." not "It would have cut it." That's why I asked what you would have cut? I understand now.

So this morning I checked compression again with the .014" base gasket. Was reading about 85psi. I took it apart and removed the base gasket, cleaned up the surface, applied some 1184, and reinstalled the cylinder without a base gasket. Then did a compression test again......solid 90-92 psi.

So by removing the .014" base gasket I gained 5-7 psi.

I checked squish after removing the base gasket, it's .043".

Doing some math, if I have the cylinder decked down .020" to get the squish down to around .023", I would expect my compression to increase about 10 psi, which would put me at about 100psi compression. 

I think i'm going to order a big bore piston/cylinder. Maybe my kit just had a bad piston/cylinder?

I should be expecting 150-180psi compression right?


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## Bedford T (Mar 11, 2018)

David.M said:


> Ok, gotchya. I thought you said "I would have cut it." not "It would have cut it." That's why I asked what you would have cut? I understand now.
> 
> So this morning I checked compression again with the .014" base gasket. Was reading about 85psi. I took it apart and removed the base gasket, cleaned up the surface, applied some 1184, and reinstalled the cylinder without a base gasket. Then did a compression test again......solid 90-92 psi.
> 
> ...


Have you done a pressure test on it to see if it's tight for the best idea of what your compression is?

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 11, 2018)

As in use an air nozzle to pressurize it and see how much it holds? and how fast it leaks down? No, I haven't done that and don't think I have tools to adequately check that. I have a little air compressor that goes to 100psi.

I compression checked my Jonsered 670 for a comparison. It's currently my primary saw, with a 28" bar. It measured 120psi.


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## Bedford T (Mar 11, 2018)

David.M said:


> As in use an air nozzle to pressurize it and see how much it holds? and how fast it leaks down? No, I haven't done that and don't think I have tools to adequately check that. I have a little air compressor that goes to 100psi.
> 
> I compression checked my Jonsered 670 for a comparison. It's currently my primary saw, with a 28" bar. It measured 120psi.


Sir, I hate to tell you this and I will try very hard to be respectful. But you need to get educated before you screw your new saw up. I have videos others have videos. The manual has instructions. This is not a model car you are putting together with glue. My sense in your case you have a 90% chance of failure if you try this without paying attention to the details.

The short version is buy a mity vac or something like it and then watch it done, then do it on your saw.

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## Bedford T (Mar 12, 2018)

Depending on. Your location I would offer to do it for you if you would rather get it done and spend later on the tools. I am sure others would help as well. Shipping would likely be 35$x2 and I will make you a video and we could do it live. Speak up if you have questions

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Mar 12, 2018)

Thanks for the offer. My dad has a vacuum tester, not sure if it's mityvac or similar. I will try to get my hands on that sometime this week and do a vacuum check. Also, after reading some other sources on chainsaw compression testing, I'm beginning to question my compression tester.


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## David.M (Mar 14, 2018)

Still haven't had a chance to vacuum test. 

Regarding compression.... I am not trusting the readings on my cheap compression tester kit. And I don't want to spend $75 for a good short-hose chainsaw compression tester at the moment.
So I put the decomp plug and spark plug in the ms440 kit saw and pulled the starter rope to get a feel for how much compression it had. Then for comparison, I pulled the starter rope a few times on two Jonsered 670's and a Stihl 024 that all run well. The MS440 pulled harder than the 024 and one of the 670's. I also expect compression to increase a bit on the ms440 after it has been used and broken in. At this point I'm satisfied with the amount of compression it has. If I have trouble later, I may upgrade to a Hyway cylinder and meteor piston as others have done.

For the reflective heat tape under the muffler, I didn't have any heat tape, so I used aluminum foil, with some 1184 underneath as the adhesive. Will see how it holds up. I have used aluminum foil as a heat reflector around a wood stove before with impressive results.

I'm just waiting on a new oil pump to arrive now. A few days ago I was fiddling with the oil pump and I broke it near the upper bolt. =( It appears that the pump was caught up on something and I over-tightened the bolt and broke a chunk of the support material off around the bolt. When the new one arrives I'm going to do some more thorough fit-up before I torque it down. It appeared that the oil pump was seated down all the way, but there was still an air gap between the oil pump and the crank case where the bolts go through, so when I tightened the bolts it flexed the oil pump too much and broke the support material off of it.


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## Ozhoo (Mar 14, 2018)

David.M said:


> It appeared that the oil pump was seated down all the way, but there was still an air gap between the oil pump and the crank case where the bolts go through, so when I tightened the bolts it flexed the oil pump too much and broke the support material off of it.



This comes back to not using the oil pump as a stop for the case bearing. Your case bearing is sticking out to far and your oil pump bottoms on it before the mounting tabs touch the case.

At least you're learning. The great thing about these kits is that you can afford to make a few mistakes.


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## David.M (Mar 14, 2018)

Yes, I am learning. 

When I removed the oil pump and looked at it last night it was not evident to me that the bearing was sticking out too far, but what you are saying makes sense. I'll try to take a closer look at it tonight.


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## David.M (Mar 15, 2018)

Sure enough, the case bearing is sticking out too far and that is what caused the oil pump to break when I tightened the bolts for it. I think I can leave it how it is though without detrimental effect.

First photo shows the bearing sticking out of the case. The distance from the bottom of the groove around the bearing, to the top of the outer bearing surface, is about 0.135". The corresponding measurement on the bottom of the oil pump is about 0.075". So the bearing is sticking out 0.060" too far.

The second photo shows the oil pump and the oiler drive gear on the pto shaft. Note that the oiler drive gear piece sits just BELOW the top of the bushing on the pto shaft.

The third photo shows the washer/backing plate for the clutch drive assembly sitting on the pto shaft. This plate seats on the top of the bushing, and the clutch drive assemble bolts snug against it. 

When I put the new oil pump on, I will put a ~0.060" thick washer between the oil pump and crank case on each of the bolts. Although the oil pump will be raised 0.060", it won't have any detrimental effect on operation as far as I can tell.

I expect the new oil pump to arrive today or tomorrow. After that's installed I will fire up the saw =)


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## David.M (Mar 16, 2018)

Fully assembled. Didn't get a chance to fire it up yet. Will do that after work today.

For the oiler, due to geometry, I wasn't able to put washers between the oil pump and the crank case. So I just put lots of locktite on the screws and tightened them until snug, leaving a small air gap between the oil pump and the crank case. I made sure the alignment was correct and everything spun freely as it should.


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## David.M (Mar 18, 2018)

Got it fired up and ran about a tank of fuel through it this weekend =) Had a couple issues getting it started.

Pulled it about 5 times with full choke until it first popped. Turned up one click on the choke selector and pulled about 10 times, nothing. Pulled the air filter, and saw that the choke butterfly piece was jammed shut (full choke). So i used a screwdriver to free it up. 3 more pulls, and the pull cord ripped. 10 minutes to replace the pull cord (luckily i had some on hand and I have changed a lot of pull cords before, so it went pretty quick). 

Also, about every 3rd pull the clutch would engage the chain as i was pulling.....made it tougher to pull. Chain had some resistance and didnt' spin as freely as i would have liked when I first assembled everything. Mostly i think due to the clutch drum being slightly out of round.

For several more pulls, i would get the saw to pop and fire about 5 times and then die. So i started messing with the carb as i went. Adjust, pull 3 or 4 times, adjust, etc.

Finally got it fired up and running =) Once it was actually running I was able to keep it running and make adjustments to the carb while it was running, which made the adjustments go quicker. I got it adjusted so it would idle well and was good on the top end. Had a bit of a lag though while accelerating from idle to WOT. Made a few test cuts, after running it for about 10 minutes, the chain spun very freely and the clutch no longer tries to engage while pull starting it.

Today I made about 2 dozen cuts with it in ~18" doug fir. It rips great through the wood at WOT, but i'm having trouble getting it to idle and accelerate. If i keep the rpm's up it does great, but the low end is acting funny. I think it's the carb. Debating whether to buy another $15 carb, or buy an OEM carb kit, or just keep fiddling with this one for now. 

Saw won't start unless the low end carb screw is 2.5+ turns out. Best luck i had was the low end screw about 3 or 4 full turns out, and the idle speed screw in ALL the way. Not ideal settings in my opinion.

So far I'm $410 into the saw, that's kit, $75 oregon bar and chain, and a couple spare parts. I'm happy with the purchase. Just need to get the carb figured out.


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## Ozhoo (Mar 19, 2018)

Endeavor to persevere 

With the low side that far out (even on a chinesium carb) I'd suspect and air leak.


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## David.M (Mar 19, 2018)

Video of a couple cuts.


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## David.M (Apr 5, 2018)

Update:

I got a Mityvac 8500. The 440 has sat in my basement for about 2 weeks with ~1/2 tank of fuel in it. It leaked fuel out onto the floor, it was coming from the carb.

I did a pressure/vacuum test via removing the muffler and plugging the exhaust port on the cylinder, and removed the carb and used a block of wood, a piece of rubber, and carb nuts to plug the intake at the carb end of the carb/cylinder boot. I then hooked up the mityvac to the impulse line for vacuum/pressure test. It held both 10psi pressure and 10"hg vacuum for over 20 seconds with less than 1psi/"hg drop on each. So the case is air tight.

I did a pressure/vacuum test on the fuel tank (fuel tank vent) via mityvac through the carb end of the fuel line. It held 10psi/10"hg solid for 20+ seconds. I didn't go any further because I don't know how much pressure the fuel tank can take and didn't want to damage it. Fuel tank vent (that was supplied with the huztl kit) needs replaced. I did the same test with the ms660 kit using the supplied huztl vent, and it built up less than 1 psi/"hg.

When I removed muffler, there was a lot of black oily residue under the muffler on the chain side of the saw. (I ran about 1/2 tank of fuel through the saw) Order of installation is: Cylinder-metal heat shield plate-exhaust gasket-muffler. There is no gasket between the cylinder and the heat shield plate, and this appears to be where the leak is coming from. I'm thinking I will just order an additional muffler gasket and put it between the cylinder and heat shield plate to seal it up.

Lastly, the piston was very wet when I took things apart. I'm not sure if the carb was running too rich (though it seemed to show signs of running lean), or if this is just a result of the gas tank pressurizing and blowing gas through everything while it sat.


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## Bedford T (Apr 5, 2018)

David.M said:


> Update:
> 
> I got a Mityvac 8500. The 440 has sat in my basement for about 2 weeks with ~1/2 tank of fuel in it. It leaked fuel out onto the floor, it was coming from the carb.
> 
> ...




There are a few confusing things in your post so i will just go over some of the points and see if i cover it for you. the case pressure test should hold for 20 seconds, period. hold still for 20 seconds. the vacuum should not hold still, it should drop completely and steadily. you take the flywheel, for example and rotate it slightly while testing to see if the oil seals are holding.

now on the wet around the muffler. if you tuned it and you don't say you did it will get all black and nasty, thats her love juice and you know all is well just wipe it up and move on. if you did not know it was there then it likely would have hung out and still been wet. its a product of tuning the saw, does not happen when you run it. as you can david get the right parts to pressure test your saw. you can make the compression tester the very last tool you ever buy. the pull on the cord test is good enough for most testing. the pressure/vac test is used in trouble shooting though out the life of your saw. 

if you see an opportunity get you a piece of header tape/wrap and replace that foil. you can use dirko to hold it down.

the fuel circuit is a separate animal. to day we have a new test to throw at you. you must test the impulse heartbeat as well. i have had way to much trouble with this and kit saws so i will add this to my steps. after you get it all buttoned up put the same fitting you tested the fuel line with into the impulse and turn the flywheel slightly you should should a heartbeat on the dial from that movement. then the pressure should hold and not move and the vacuum should fall, its usually very rapid on a fuel tank because the space is small.

one last thing, i think you have the wrong bolts in your cylinder. its been a little while but i think they are dark, when i am near the saw i will look. The ones you have are silver and farmertec has silver 5mx20mm and you need 5mx25mm. replace them and retest. i encourage you to replace them.

ok, if i missed somethng let me know


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## David.M (Apr 5, 2018)

I did not rotate the flywheel/engine while testing pressure or vacuum. I may re-test and try that.

On the muffler....the residue did not come from the muffler exit ports, it was coming from between the cylinder and the heat shield plate. That indicates an exhaust leak where there should not be one right? I'm not concerned much about the presence of the residue, but rather where it was coming from.

Cylinder bolts: I didn't measure the length of them when I put them in, but I'm certain I didn't just mix them up with other bolts somewhere else on the saw. They are the bolts that came with the farmertec kit that are intended for use on the cylinder. Are you saying your kit came with black bolts instead? Or that farmertec sent incorrect cylinder bolts with the kit?


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## Bedford T (Apr 5, 2018)

David.M said:


> I did not rotate the flywheel/engine while testing pressure or vacuum. I may re-test and try that.
> 
> On the muffler....the residue did not come from the muffler exit ports, it was coming from between the cylinder and the heat shield plate. That indicates an exhaust leak where there should not be one right? I'm not concerned much about the presence of the residue, but rather where it was coming from.
> 
> Cylinder bolts: I didn't measure the length of them when I put them in, but I'm certain I didn't just mix them up with other bolts somewhere else on the saw. They are the bolts that came with the farmertec kit that are intended for use on the cylinder. Are you saying your kit came with black bolts instead? Or that farmertec sent incorrect cylinder bolts with the kit?


David I don't think I am the guy to help you. You seem to be hard headed and unwilling to follow best practices. I will let others help you and save me the frustration. Bet you never bothered with a manual. You seem to think of this as a Lego set. 

http://thechainsawkitguy.com Kit info


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## David.M (Apr 5, 2018)

Why so harsh Bedford T? You have posted videos on youtube (helpful videos i'll add) where you sometimes make mistakes and figure things out as you go. You have also stated that that is part of the fun in these kits. Now as I'm figuring out some things as I build my kits, you accuse me of being hardheaded, unwilling to follow best practices, frustrating, and not looking at the manual?? The reason I'm posting about my questions and findings is that you requested that I do so a few weeks ago to "pay it forward" when I first chimed in and thanked everyone else on here who has already posted a wealth of helpful info.

You said I have the wrong cylinder bolts because I used the supplied silver M5x20 bolts and you said I should have M5x25 black bolts? Where are you getting this from? The manual I have says:




Further, you indicated I did the vacuum test wrong because I did not rotate the flywheel while measuring it. After thinking about it, it makes sense to me why that might be a helpful test, however this is what the manual says:





The manual says to do it as a static test. Makes no mention of rotating the flywheel/crank while testing.

I apologize Bedford T for confusing and frustrating you. I appreciate your input and help on these kit saws. I will try to make my future posts shorter and less confusing.

In the end, my 660 kit is running great. The 440 kit has a couple bugs to work out but I am happy with it as well. It has been a fun learning process building these saws and I hope to build more in the future. I have made a couple mistakes along the way, and chances are I will make more mistakes in the future. But I learn from each mistake and work to improve. Thankfully others have shared many of their mistakes and successes and I have learned quite a few lessons through what they have shared. I appreciate all the helpful information that people have posted on this site and others. It made it much easier to figure out these kits, especially the first one.


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## grizz55chev (Apr 5, 2018)

Bedford T seems a little buthurt for someone that had no idea what he was doing just a few months ago. I remember introducing him to the pressure vac test a little over a year ago, he had no idea, now he’s an expert, go figure.


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## Imprzed205 (Apr 6, 2018)

Damn, Beford flipped his Shnit. 
I don't know a lot about diagnosing a whole lot. But Have you pressure tested the inlet needle on your carb to see if it's leaking? 
I don't have the instructions to do it but you can test it with your pressure pump.


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## David.M (Apr 8, 2018)

No, I haven't tested the carb. I ordered a second $13 ebay carb. I'll throw that in and see if that fixes it. If not, I will do further testing/diagnosing.


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## morbius18 (Apr 9, 2018)

David.M said:


> No, I haven't tested the carb. I ordered a second $13 ebay carb. I'll throw that in and see if that fixes it. If not, I will do further testing/diagnosing.



I replaced my carb with a Walbro used hd16. I figured 35 was a good deal for used. Actually, I've replaced flywheel, clutch, clutch drum, av mounts, switch, chain tensioner and about to do a used 440 oem cylinder with meteor piston/caber rings. In retrospect, I should have bought a used Stihl 440


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## David.M (Apr 10, 2018)

Is that because all those parts failed on you? Or you just felt better having them replaced?

I put an OEM gas tank vent on mine last night and then did a vac and pressure test on the tank. It vents and holds less than 1"HG vacuum. However it held 15psi pressure for 10+ minutes without dropping even 1 psi. My 660 kit saw gas tank builds up and holds less than 1psi pressure.


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## morbius18 (Apr 10, 2018)

I had a vibration in mine, so the rotating parts were tested as well as the av. It reduced it some. But not altogether. I picked up a few parts 460 and 461s so I swapped some over.

The chain brake stuff I did replacing the band. Mine didn't have the pin in the end. 

I milled and ported my cylinder and wanted more adjustment, so I switched the carb. The switch didn't want to choke the walbro, so that was changed. In the process I changed the carb plate and throttle rod with oem. 

I picked up a crankcase with crank. Probably will be using that and only using the handle, covers and muffler. I'm pretty sure the crank is the source of the vibrations. If I'm splitting the case again, I'm not reusing thr hutzl one when I have an oem one.


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## David.M (Apr 10, 2018)

Ok. I only ran about 1/2 tank of fuel through mine so far, with all stock farmertec parts. I haven't noticed any abnormal vibrations on mine yet.

After a little more reading, the fuel tank vent is a one way vent to let air in but not out. So what I measured on the OEM Stihl vent with the pressure/vac test is what I should have expected.

The farmertec tank vent did not let air in or out. Likely it was creating a vacuum when the saw was running, resulting in less fuel through the carb, resulting in the lean condition that I was experiencing.

I'm going to test the inlet needle on the original farmertec carb to see what pressure it opens at. I read elsewhere that it should open at about 10psi. I'm thinking this is the most probable cause to the saw leaking fuel on my basement floor when sitting for 2 weeks. $13 ebay carb should arrive any day also. I will also pressure test the needle on that one before I put it in.


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## morbius18 (Apr 10, 2018)

David.M said:


> Ok. I only ran about 1/2 tank of fuel through mine so far, with all stock farmertec parts. I haven't noticed any abnormal vibrations on mine yet.
> 
> After a little more reading, the fuel tank vent is a one way vent to let air in but not out. So what I measured on the OEM Stihl vent with the pressure/vac test is what I should have expected.
> 
> ...



I've used it and cut with it, but at idle it vibrates pretty bad. At this point, after I get the donor crankcase/crank installed, the only farmertec thing left on mine will be the tank, covers and muffler. 

It's left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I really got what I paid for with this one....


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## David.M (Apr 12, 2018)

I got my 440 running again last night.

OEM fuel tank vent installed. Added a gasket between the cylinder and muffler heat shield plate. Installed $13 ebay carb.

Started on 3 pull. I ran it for about 5 or 10 minutes. I made a couple cuts with it as well. Idles pretty well now and seems to run good. 

Vibration: While running it, I thought about vibration and I really didn't notice any abnormal vibrations. However after I put it away and took my gloves off my fingers were slightly tingly. So maybe there is some extra vibration there. Will see as I use it more.


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## David.M (Apr 16, 2018)

Did a few more test cuts with the 440 and made a short video clip of it. When I was fumbling with my phone to stop the recording, it "auto rotated" and then saved the entire video sideways. Ugh. Video still shows the saw running though.


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## morbius18 (Apr 21, 2018)

I ended up getting a crankcase with crank to replace the farmertec one. Turned out the case had a bad pto bearing seat. Was sold as functional.

I used the farmertec crankcase with stihl oem bearings, crank and cylinder with meteor piston and caber rings. I used the metal gasket and sealed up up. Crankcase had an air leak next to the impulse fitting.

I took it back apart and used some dirko on the crankcase seal. Back together and the metal seal leaked. Took it apart and dirkoed the seal. It passed vacuum and pressure. Squish was really high like .040 or so. After assembly I compression tested it, got 120 psi. Tested another saw, 150.

I debated parting the stupid thing out or running it over with my tractor. I've been throwing good money after bad with this one.

I'm guessing the case isn't machined to the same height as an OEM one, which results in shoddy squish.

I disassembled it again, pulled the jug and cleaned the mating surfaces for the 100th time. I found that .005 gasket paper got the squish to around .020. I made a gasket and dirkoed it again.

It passed pressure and vacuum, so I reassembled everything. It fired up and ran... really well. Ended up with almost 150psi also.

So OEM Stihl stuff on this is:

Crank bearings, crankshaft, cylinder, Meteor piston/caber rings, decomp valve, oil pump, flywheel, clutch, clutch drum, chain tensioner/brake pieces, intake boot/clamp, carburetor washers, 460 carburetor, throttle rod and control lever.

It finally has no crazy vibrations.

Vibration was either the crank or bearings. Most likely the crank.










I have it listed on Craigslist, disclosing exactly what it is.


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## Bedford T (Apr 21, 2018)

morbius18 said:


> I ended up getting a crankcase with crank to replace the farmertec one. Turned out the case had a bad pto bearing seat. Was sold as functional.
> 
> I used the farmertec crankcase with stihl oem bearings, crank and cylinder with meteor piston and caber rings. I used the metal gasket and sealed up up. Crankcase had an air leak next to the impulse fitting.
> 
> ...


Almost oem

kit info & packing lists @ http://thechainsawkitguy.com


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## David.M (May 14, 2018)

put some time on my 440 this weekend. No problems.


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## CsClimbr (May 21, 2018)

Subbed


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## Bedford T (Jun 15, 2018)

I reached out to mitty's again on the walbro hd-15. she was suppose to bring them in after i got mine. its one of the few things this kit absolutely needs to run right. for what ever reason she said they would be in at the end of the month. i got a feeling she could not get them to do a run for the price i got, so expect it to be some higher, i don't know that. but there has to be a reason for the delay. regardless, i think the stihl is between 75-125 depending on your circumstance. a refresher no limiters and shipping is included or was.


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## morbius18 (Jun 15, 2018)

I ended up parting with my hybrid 440. It had Stihl bearings, crank, cylinder, intake, carb, flywheel, coil, oil pump, clutch, clutch drum, decomp and more smalls. I had gotten a donor 460 and switched parts over.

Something that I ran into was the squish was really high without a base gasket. It had OEM crank, meteor piston, OEM cylinder. I think that the cylinder base on the crankcase wasn't machined to the right depth. Something to look out for if anyone else tries to install an oem cylinder.


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## Bedford T (Aug 4, 2018)

I just ordered a meteor kit. I found a source for a crank with chromed bearings. i am might use the hd-15 i bought and see how it runs. It already cuts great but it bounces when it sits, if it smooths out I came out ahead on both fronts and if not i will look at that crank. I have a spare case so rather than separate the current one i will just seal it up with the upgraded crank in the spare case. the oem carb thats on it might be jetted more for the 460. but with changing the cylinder that might alter that dynamic and i can continue to use the oem. i am covered either way. the meteor tolerances might really make the saw shine. can't wait to see how that works out. they are very expensive compared to other AM. made a difference on my 660.


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## brandonstc6 (Aug 4, 2018)

I saw this kit of eBay, I’ve never seen any with the blue covers.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bedford T (Aug 4, 2018)

brandonstc6 said:


> I saw this kit of eBay, I’ve never seen any with the blue covers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They must be getting heat. I would bet it's orange.

chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Ozhoo (Aug 4, 2018)

Stihl won a trademark lawsuit in China over it's colors.


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## Bedford T (Aug 4, 2018)

Ozhoo said:


> Stihl won a trademark lawsuit in China over it's colors.


That was several years ago. 

I bet they got a letter. I bet they wrote back "our quailty control is non existence. So we are not copying you, here just look at the break band" lol

chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## dmb2613 (Aug 5, 2018)

It appears there has been talk about the brake band not having a pin, well both my 440 and 660 did not have a pin in the bands, but both had the pins in the kit to go in them , yawl did not loose them did you?


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## CsClimbr (Aug 5, 2018)

dmb2613 said:


> It appears there has been talk about the brake band not having a pin, well both my 440 and 660 did not have a pin in the bands, but both had the pins in the kit to go in them , yawl did not loose them did you?



Mine came in the 660 kit separate as well.. easy enough to lose it but I finally figure out what it was for


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

dmb2613 said:


> It appears there has been talk about the brake band not having a pin, well both my 440 and 660 did not have a pin in the bands, but both had the pins in the kit to go in them , yawl did not loose them did you?


It is pleasing you are satisfied with that. I am not. My purchase was of a copy. Stihl does not sell them like that. So it was not a copy. If that band gets under a lot of stress and racks and the inserted pin works out, uh-oh. And then there is the people that say hell with it, or lose it or my God don't get it. I think it was a blunder.

chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## dmb2613 (Aug 5, 2018)

Bedford T said:


> It is pleasing you are satisfied with that. I am not. My purchase was of a copy. Stihl does not sell them like that. So it was not a copy. If that band gets under a lot of stress and racks and the inserted pin works out, uh-oh. And then there is the people that say hell with it, or lose it or my God don't get it. I think it was a blunder.
> 
> chainsaw kits and packing lists
> http://thechainsawkitguy.com
> http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy



The way it is made the pin can not come out. Are you just nuts or do you work at it. It appears no mater what I post you have something negative to say about it.
Others here seam to put up with it, I sir will not Go take your meds Look at the case the pin can not come out after the band is installed.
I just hope people that are new to chainsaws don't take your post for the absolute truth
David


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

If the band rises as in a rack it could. The point is they come fixed from the factory for a reason. You need to calm down. I made a valid point. I been working with kits longer than you.


dmb2613 said:


> The way it is made the pin can not come out. Are you just nuts or do you work at it. It appears no mater what I post you have something negative to say about it.
> Others here seam to put up with it, I sir will not Go take your meds Look at the case the pin can not come out after the band is installed.
> I just hope people that are new to chainsaws don't take your post for the absolute truth
> David


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## dmb2613 (Aug 5, 2018)

and I have been working on Stihl saws for over for 20 years , I am no expert , but that band will not come out unless you have another issue


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

The kits are copies and the assembly is the same and best practice is to use the correct assembly procedures to wind up with a safe saw that runs longer than a few months. The parts need to be excat copies. I help people build them and if the parts are not correct I point it out. I do not want new builders to get in trouble. They need to understand the difference. And not be willing to accept anything less.


.


dmb2613 said:


> and I have been working on Stihl saws for over for 20 years , I am no expert , but that band will not come out unless you have another issue


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## CsClimbr (Aug 5, 2018)

Exact copies or copies of parts are available from your local Stihl dealer. No disrespect meant but these kits can’t have everything perfect or they’d be sold as OEM Stihl parts. I’m really surprised the Chinese sent me anything even resembling a Stihl saw after taking my money but that was the gamble I took.

Kinda like a Lamborghini kit car, if they were up to the same quality & exact copies, why would anyone pay for the real thing?

I bought my ex a set of ta-tas and even tho I paid for both the same, one was a tit bit off and not identical


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

CsClimbr said:


> Exact copies or copies of parts are available from your local Stihl dealer. No disrespect meant but these kits can’t have everything perfect or they’d be sold as OEM Stihl parts. I’m really surprised the Chinese sent me anything even resembling a Stihl saw after taking my money but that was the gamble I took.
> 
> Kinda like a Lamborghini kit car, if they were up to the same quality & exact copies, why would anyone pay for the real thing?
> 
> I bought my ex a set of ta-tas and even tho I paid for both the same, one was a tit bit off and not identical


I have never seen a matching set of tata's. One was usually bigger than the other or something. But I never saw a pair I found fault with.

On the parts, the case is a good copy, the tank handle is a good copy so why not the brake, it's important. So I see this all the time people welcoming their short comings. I am not going to try to convince you to expect better quailty. I am just going to point out the parts that matter


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## CsClimbr (Aug 5, 2018)

C’mon, wouldn’t be a challenge without a bit of customizing to be done. All in good fun


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

CsClimbr said:


> C’mon, wouldn’t be a challenge without a bit of customizing to be done. All in good fun


It is a piece of safety equipment. Is the only difference and would be similarly outspoken on something that would harm the saw or the user. The rest is enjoyment just like tata's.


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## CsClimbr (Aug 5, 2018)

If only my woman would let me collect ta-tas to play with


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

I get messages from people all over the world, it's amazing how this one thing is of interest. I am humbled. Also it is irritating when someone writes me and tells me that their saw messed up. Or they had some problem. And I think how often I have talked about these issues. People will complain and I wonder why they did not listen.


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## Bedford T (Aug 5, 2018)

If it was allowed to touch to unwind it would be cool.


CsClimbr said:


> If only my woman would let me collect ta-tas to play with


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## Bedford T (Aug 6, 2018)

www.mittysupply.com has the hard as the dickens to find Walbro HD-15 carb for sale on their website right now. She went to enormous amount of trouble to bring this in. I guess it necessitated a production run and that was the delay in getting them. She is also the source for the 660 carb and they sell carbs for huskies, poulan you name it you can even pick up a milking machine. get em before they are gone they will hit my channel next week and they will be a bunch gone. i did not ask her how many she stocked so you are hearing about it first


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## X 66 Stang347 X (Aug 6, 2018)

$55 free ship isn’t bad.


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## Bedford T (Aug 6, 2018)

It's wonderful you can even buy them. It's a dollar less than she charged me back when she decided to go on this journey with me. No limiters

chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Bedford T (Aug 12, 2018)

You can see the first 440 kit or one of the first. The saw surprised me how well it's aged.








chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Bedford T (Aug 14, 2018)

I just noticed this. If you look at the back top right hand corner above my knot of wires you will see a circle with a rim. I think that is to wrap the extra wire around to neated it up. My fingers are way to stiff to pull it off. But it is slanted so the wire could cling to it. Kinda cool






chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Bedford T (Aug 17, 2018)

I went back to it. I like this much better.





chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Firewood Bandit (Jun 3, 2019)

Hey guys, in the process of building a 440 kit now. I am impressed with fit and finish I think it might even be better then the 660 I did a year ago. Anyways, with no base gasget the squish was 65 thousands. I sent it off to have 60 thousands removed so I should end up with 23 to 25 thousand with a gasket. I hope that does not mess up the timing too bad. I have a set if 50mm caber rings to put in an all FT top end. Has anyone any experience doing this. I remember reading at some point the cabers are too hard for the hutzel jug and will wear it prematurely. Any compression gains to be had going with cabers?


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## Firewood Bandit (Jun 14, 2019)

Oh man just finished reading the previous 30 pages. The vibration off idle is caused by the FT crank and or bearings is that correct?


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## Bedford T (Jun 14, 2019)

I missed your posts. This place has changed and well. ..

Just a thoughtful question if you know the ft jugs are not right for cabers why use them. Period. That being a rhetorical question.

It was my experience there there's absolutely nothing wrong with the bottom part. The vibration I experienced was hard for me to figure out everybody can have an opinion but I spent a lot of time with these and I was not satisfied.

In fact I did a video on this. I came back around after I'd used the saw for a year or something, Right after upgrading my 660 to meteor jug and I put a meteor on the 440 and it had no further vibration it was perfect. In fact if you look at the 660 videos where I compared it the 660 that I built to the blue 660 that they sell I've got them running side by side the 660 that I built has the meteor but of course the blue one has the farmertec. It's a dancing all over the place so it's just the way they machine them they could be a lot better.

And I love my 440. The balance, weight power besides I mean it's awesome saw. I've often wondered why they weren't more popular than the kits. I think it's good looking too.

Oh and by the way as rough as it ran the old ft cylinder was still useable and rings were in good shape. I doubt you could delete the gasket on a meteor.

chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Firewood Bandit (Jun 15, 2019)

Bedford T said:


> I missed your posts. This place has changed and well. ..
> 
> Just a thoughtful question if you know the ft jugs are not right for cabers why use them. Period. That being a rhetorical question.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to reply. I would be really pleased if I could solve this nasty low speed vibration with a metior top end rather than replacing the crank... that's somthing iv never done. I suppose I'll give a new metior jug and piston a try. Thanks again, Joe


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## Bedford T (Jun 15, 2019)

Firewood Bandit said:


> Thank you for taking the time to reply. I would be really pleased if I could solve this nasty low speed vibration with a metior top end rather than replacing the crank... that's somthing iv never done. I suppose I'll give a new metior jug and piston a try. Thanks again, Joe


Joe replace the bearing with oem too The vibration bothered me too, a lot. I answer on YouTube, there I don't miss anything. If you run into something find me there I will help anyway I can. Have fun 

chainsaw kits and packing lists
http://thechainsawkitguy.com
http://YouTube.com/c/the1chainsawguy


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## Firewood Bandit (Jun 23, 2019)

The 440 Lives! 
The 660 chain is WAY too hungry its grabbing and bogging the saw.


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