# Ceramic Bearings?????



## sILlogger (Mar 30, 2007)

I was just reading a post and come across "ceramic bearings" u suppose this is some part of a saw mod, what do these add to the saw?? longevity??? im soon to have an 066 woods ported and was curious as to what ceramic bearing bring to the fight, once again thanks!!


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## computeruser (Mar 30, 2007)

They add a lot of cost, I know that much. Less friction would be their biggest advantage, I'd suspect.


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 30, 2007)

Lower friction. Unless you're racing... and into splitting hairs, I wouldn't bother...


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## rickyrooster (Mar 30, 2007)

dean at washington hot saws, claims there worth 5% to 7% more horsepower just by adding these bearings. he is also a member of AS.


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## bwalker (Mar 30, 2007)

I would like to see the proof of a 5-7% increase in HP.


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## livewire (Mar 30, 2007)

bwalker said:


> I would like to see the proof of a 5-7% increase in HP.



and cost!!! What do they run?


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 30, 2007)

I also would like to see the proof of 5-7%... just the bearings?


Here's one suppliers info on what we are talking about. HYBRID ceramic bearings - Stainless bearing with Si3N4 balls. You can buy your own balls and do you own if you have a few tools... but for one or two saws it would be hard to get anyones attenmtion on the supply side...

The graphs "look" impressive, but pay attention to the SCALES... and remember the application - saws, not turbines, or gyros, or..


From : http://www.bearingworks.com/fnb.htm


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## Tree Sling'r (Mar 30, 2007)

*Heres what sold me*

I was not sure what they would improve in performance - but installed in a 460 I built - it performed better than any other mod I have done - they are the same.

This is true no BS: Took the bearings out of the case - put one on my index finger, spun it - it took 2 full turns. Put ceramics in the other bearing, spun it while on the same finger (technical) it spun nearly five times. Did it again and again just to prove it was no fluke. I marked each race with a Sharpie to get somewhat of a real reading. Did it again and again - same result each time.

Bag on them all you want - but until you have used them or seen the difference first hand I don't think this should turn into a VS. thread.

Just my perspective, take it for what its worth.


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## livewire (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm not bashing at all.

I just want to know what the ballpark cost is for the upgrade. It may or may not be worth an investment in my opinion.


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## Tree Sling'r (Mar 30, 2007)

livewire said:


> I'm not bashing at all.
> 
> I just want to know what the ballpark cost is for the upgrade. It may or may not be worth an investment in my opinion.



I know you weren't. 
As far as cost - not sure - I did some swapping with Dean. We seem to do that a lot. Get a hold of Dean, he could be more informative that I can.


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 30, 2007)

I don't want to speak for Dean but I believe he said $200/set in a recent post... I'm sure he''ll correct me if I'm wrong 

Edit - here is is.. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=602635#post602635


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## livewire (Mar 30, 2007)

Wow....

I was close! was only off by 1 zero.

Now all I have to do is run a saw with 'em!


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 31, 2007)

There a heck of a lot more to do with a work saw before I'd get into the bearings...


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## klickitatsacket (Mar 31, 2007)

first of the bearings the Lakside shows are ceramic hybrids, not full ceramics. Ceramic hybrids are for low speed applications only. Hybrids coat steal with a ceramic coating. the problem with them are that the steel expands at a higher and faster rate than the ceramic and cracks the coating. 

A full ceramic siliconNitride ball is 30% less dense than steel and only requires 1/10 the lubrication. These balls are rated for up to 32,000 RPM (not that any saw will go that fast) Manufacturer claims 8-10 % in HP gains however our tests show that cut times run about 5-7% faster with the only changes being the bearings. One of the biggest things you will notice is that throttle response is extremely improved.

The cost for bearings is $5 per ball plus $30 per set for labor. this is for phenolic cages only. Any bearing with steel cages and rivets is based on $50 per hour shop rate. IF you want us to purchase your bearings for you we can and send you a set rebuilt, or you can send us your set and we will rebuild those. I highly recomend NEW bearings and at the worst no more than 1 or 2 tanks of fuel through your saw. 

IF you have any questions please feel free to give us a call.


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## RiverRat2 (Mar 31, 2007)

*WE know Mule!!!!*

Marketing stategy??????? oh sorry I got you and bwalker mixed up!!!:monkey:


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## RiverRat2 (Mar 31, 2007)

rickyrooster said:


> dean at washington hot saws, claims there worth 5% to 7% more horsepower just by adding these bearings. he is also a member of AS.




He said 5-7% improvement in cut times,,,,,Not HP!!!!


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 31, 2007)

Dean.. the bearing I gave the info on have soild ceramic balls... The true ceramic bearings have the inner and outer races also constructed of ceramic.. not what we are talking about here. What you put togther are known as hybrid bearings. 

I know the advantages of ceramic and looked closely at this application a couple of years ago. Maybe I don't have all the facts but couldn't see the real advantage for a work saw. Taking out one ring for example would reduce friction far more than the bearings.

Can you show us the actual manufacturers claim of the HP increase? Why does it "increase the HP"? If it just frictional, then that means the HP gained is being lost in the steel bearings. If you gain say 0.3hp, in a perfect world that's 228 watts of energy being lost as heat IN the steel bearing... I'm having trouble reconciling that ... Help us out...


For those of you interested:

Here's another link - shows true ceramic bearings - not cheap.. 
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/FullCeramicBearings

This is link to the top page - you can get to hybrids and loose balls (not the sizes you need for the Metric bearings, but they are all similar).
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/CeramicBallBearings


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

Nothing new as ceramic bearings have been used for years. I knew a guy who sold them for use in Honda powdered two stroke shifter carts/ They worked OK, but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno. 
I dont think a ultra accurate dyno exists for saws yet. As such its nearly impossible to reconcile claims made. $200 is way steep for a set of bearings that may or may not do anything better.
FWIW I also seem to remember ceramic bearings not tolerating debris very well.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

BTW this is the guy I was talking about.
http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html


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## chowdozer (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> BTW this is the guy I was talking about.
> http://www.rceracing.com/lowfriccerbe.html



In your previous post you wrote


bwalker said:


> but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno



but he writes in his website


> Our testing shows 1/2 to 5/8 HP improvement.



Something doesn't add up.

What if you could get a 1/2 hp on a chainsaw?


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## RiverRat2 (Mar 31, 2007)

chowdozer said:


> In your previous post you wrote
> 
> but he writes in his website
> 
> ...



Then I would say that would be Kick Azzed


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## Haywire Haywood (Mar 31, 2007)

You would have to look at the total HP those carts are putting out to get a percentage increase and then apply that to the saw application but since the engines and their internal frictions aren't the same, that wouldn't work either.

What I find interesting is that the loose ceramic balls on the site that Andy listed are going for $1.50-$2.00 each. There might be a quality difference between those and Dean's $5 balls tho. I know mine are pretty valuable to me, but they were from a very limited 1967 production run :jester:. They made just 2, decided they got them right and called it a day.

Ian


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

If you find a 1/2-5/8 hp increase on a motor that makes over 35hp significant have at it.


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 31, 2007)

Here's another informative link on bearings (slanted towards their services..).

http://www.microblueracing.com/bearing_central/bearing_central.php


They talk about the ball fit complexities much clearer then I can.. it is an issue..


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## klickitatsacket (Mar 31, 2007)

Hey guys I and others who are involved in this with my shop have spent literally 10's of hours researching these long before we ever decided to get involved. Then there was the testing of the ceramics before we ever started to sell them. 

"Manufacturer claims 8-10 % in HP gains however our tests show that cut times run about 5-7% faster with the only changes being the bearings."

Remember that statement? Look I do not buy into manufacturers hype either and so we did our own tests and hence the statement. The gains are actually just parasitic losses recovered.

Lakside, you may want to spend a little more time in an in depth research of this product. Hybrid is the way that most unscrupulous manufacturers try to fool people into buying coated bearings. Usually they come from China and look like bargains, but are not meant for engine use.

Are they expensive? Yes. Are they the *BEST*? Yes. Are they SUPERIOR to anything your company sells? *ABSOLUTELY!*
Are they for everybody? No. They are for those who want the best. These are for those who buy a good piece of equipment and then bring it to me to have it converted into a high performance machine. The discriminating person who would buy a set of ceramic bearings is typically spending $600 - $1000 on modifications and these are only part of the package. The person who purchases our services; wants the best with no compromise.


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## chowdozer (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> If you find a 1/2-5/8 hp increase on a motor that makes over 35hp significant have at it.



You didn't read your friend's website, did you? 

This is what he wrote.


> Not a ton, but how important is that critical 1-2 kart length lead at the end of the straight?



As Dean says, they're not for everyone. There are some people out there with saws that have already chased every fraction of a horsepower they can. This is just another fraction for them.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

> Something doesn't add up.
> 
> What if you could get a 1/2 hp on a chainsaw?


 I most certainly did. I dont call a 1/2hp or less than 1% gain on a 35hp engine significant. Do you?

I might add that the bearings are RCE sells are around $100 per set. They are also probably twice the size of a saw bearing.
Another thing I find odd is that a 5-7% gain in cut speed is claimed. Certainly to garner such a gain it would take a more than 5-7% increase in horspower. Yet RCE is only claiming a less than 1% gain.
FWIW you can bet that RCE has tested these bearings in a scientific manner. The principle people involved with RCE have a F-1 background and they actually developed their own motorcycle from scratch, including the motor. The engine was a emissions compliant, DI two stroke to boot.


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## klickitatsacket (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> FWIWI most certainly did. I dont call a 1/2hp or less than 1% gain on a 35hp engine significant. Do you?
> More like 1.4%
> FWIWI might add that the bearings are RCE sells are around $100 per set. They are also probably twice the size of a saw bearing.Argue the inflated price of bearings with stihl  FWIW I like the statement probably twice the size. So you have not handled those either and really have no clue, just all guess work on your part.


 
"FWIW" I like that. To me a BOOK JOCKY who has never built anything, who wants nothing to do with racing and who has never tried them to know if they work or not, well FWIW; about the same as the paper I used and flushed this morning.


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## chowdozer (Mar 31, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> "FWIW" I like that. To me a BOOK JOCKY who has never built anything, who wants nothing to do with racing and who has never tried them to know if they work or not, well FWIW; about the same as the paper I used and flushed this morning.



   

My thoughts exactly!

Mr Walker, if you only read about it, who are you going to believe? 



bwalker said:


> I most certainly did. I dont call a 1/2hp or less than 1% gain on a 35hp engine significant. Do you?



I would say that if a builder is chasing horsepower to the nth degree, it gets exponentially expensive. Certainly when a builder gets to the point where he has decided to use ceramic bearings to gain a fraction of a hp, it was the most economical hp gain he could achieve. Less than 1% hp wins races. If you think that chasing a fraction of a hp is absurd, go take a look around F1 instead of talking about it.



bwalker said:


> FWIW you can bet that RCE has tested these bearings in a scientific manner.



Just a few posts ago, you wrote this:


bwalker said:


> They worked OK, but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno.



Anyone that has tested these bearings in a *scientific manner* and _*never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno*_ would not be making any claims. If they are making claims then they are full of it.

So what is it? Are you full of chit or are they?


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## PES+ (Mar 31, 2007)

*Per the shifter kart site price list*

Price is per bearing (each)

Two required per engine


CS-Bpad$104.95

210 dollars a pair for the shifter kart engine applications.

Dean I have always heard the bearings you are custom building called hybrids.

I have had some made for various applications and have found as Dean has that there is quite a bit of inspection and reject work hence the price difference.

And the difference in an aircooled engine versus a water cooled is substantial particularly when modifications load the crank harder and raise the RPM. It is not simply the reduction of parasitic loss.

Remember that the trick is to keep the crankcase as cool as possible to get the maximum amount of charge into the case then compress and transfer.

The last benefit is the ceramics are far kinder to seals due to less heat produced as well as less axial movement.

RCE does the same thing Dean does but for a different application and the benefits are much greater in a aircooled engine than a water cooled.

A question for Dean from me would be did you match two saws and then swap out to ceramics or are the comparisons on the same saw on different days.

Using an actual cut is always hard for me to comprehend as there are so many variables involved.

The ceramics are a superior bearing hybrid or full but unfortunately as Dean discovered all of the reasonably priced ones from all suppliers that I tried were poor quality and some were unusable right out of the box.

Precision costs money and takes time


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## Jacob J. (Mar 31, 2007)

I also have yet to see anything about a bearing that uses a steel ball with a ceramic coating and calls it "hybrid". I've looked at around 40 websites and I've called 6 of them and everyone of them defined a hybrid bearing as a bearing that uses steel inner and outer races, a retainer made of phenolic, teflon, or steel, and a 100% silicon nitride ball for the actual roller. Although I did locate two companies selling a hybrid bearing with the roller balls made of an inferior chemical compound than 100% silicon nitride. I did talk to these folks and they were informative: http://www.cbrbearing.com/ceramic_hybrid_ball_bearings.htm


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## klickitatsacket (Mar 31, 2007)

Pest, The testing we did was to run a stock saw and then put in the ceramics and run it again. Condition were not scientifically controlled, but fairly close day to day. I did 2 tests here at my shop and I had another guy in the midwest who is helping me with this do 4 tests. We averaged things out and found that theere was a 5-7% increase in cut times. We are still noticing the same types af gains and have now installed 9 sets and sold several other sets to be installed by our customers.

I will add ; that there is a lot of crap out there when it comes to ceramic bearings. A lot of it comes out of China. We are using what I feel are the best we can buy. We use 100% SiliconNitride balls to rebuild OEM races. There are at least 5 different sizes per size and 7 different grades. We run slightly small balls (as per an engineers' recomendations) this is to accomodate for higher RPM. We do not use hybrid balls


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## PES+ (Mar 31, 2007)

I just asked a guy in Europe and he does say that there are balls that are coated and machined called either composite or hybrid so maybe that is the terminology mix and match. I don't know....there seems to be alot of interchangable terminology in items these days but there were always different names for alot of items Gudgeon pin comes to mind

I do not see how anyone can begrudge a person his time and expense to hand build an item.

I am still freaked out this afternoon after finding my stored away 166 is in fact a 153 no big deal but someone scoffed the entire ignition out of it in one of it's resting places:bang:


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

A genius in his own mind.......
Dean, just a thought. Maybe if you read a few books you wouldnt continue to chase obscure ideas.
BTW might want to pick up a math book while your at it as a .5 gain on a 35hp does not amount to 1.4%. To make it simple lets take ten percent of 35=3.5, take half of that, which is 5%= 1.75, take half of that, which is 2.5%=.75. Now where are you getting 1.4% from

Chowdozer, Do you consider a less than 1% gain significant? RCE even mentions that the gains are not huge and in no way does my statement in regards to no *significant* gains being made not jive with whats on RCE's site. You might think a 3'' crank is significant, but not me. Some goes for a sub 1% gain in HP.


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## PES+ (Mar 31, 2007)

Me.....him.....or you??


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## LarryTheCableGuy (Mar 31, 2007)

If all else fails resort to name calling. An excellent way to muck up a good discussion.

.


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## klickitatsacket (Mar 31, 2007)

1.4% gain. check again and you will see I am talking gains. BTW don't let this stop you from answering all your other BS


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

Not you, Pest.


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## spacemule (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> A genius in his own mind.......
> Dean, just a thought. Maybe if you read a few books you wouldnt continue to chase obscure ideas.
> BTW might want to pick up a math book while your at it as a .5 gain on a 35hp does not amount to 1.4%. To make it simple lets take ten percent of 35=3.5, take half of that, which is 5%= 1.75, take half of that, which is 2.5%=.75. Now where are you getting 1.4% from


1.4% is correct Ben, or at least is a good approximation. Actually, half of 1.75 is .875, but let's follow with what you said anyway. Following your lead, take half of 2.5% = .357 = 1.25%. This falls in line with 1.4%. To make it even easier, .5 divided by 35 = .01412857 and the decimal repeats. Now, to convert from decimal to percentages, multiply by 100. Doing this gives us 1.41287 percent, again with a repeating decimal.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

> 1.4% gain. check again and you will see I am talking gains. BTW don't let this stop you from answering all your other BS
> __________________


 Actually your correct. A 1% gain would equal 35.49hp.


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## spacemule (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Actually your correct. A 1% gain would equal 35.49hp.


A 1% gain? 35 x .01 will equal 1%. so, 35 x .01 = .35. Adding this to the original hp would give us 35.35 hp. .35 is significantly less than the .5 we were originally talking about. The .49 you are talking about would be a .49/35x100 =1.4% evenly.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

Thanks for the math Mule.
Now can you apply the same % gain in HP to a mod saw of say 10hp?
I am having a hard time figuring out how a 1.4% gain can equate to a 5-7% increase in cut speed, but I am not a math guy.


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## spacemule (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Thanks for the math Mule.
> Now can you apply the same % gain in HP to a mod saw of say 10hp?
> I am having a hard time figuring out how a 1.4% gain can equate to a 5-7% increase in cut speed, but I am not a math guy.



Ha ha. Ok, a 1.4% gain on a 10 hp motor would be (10x1.4)/100=.14hp. So, a 1.4% gain would yield 10.14hp. Cut speeds? Who knows.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

> Cut speeds? Who knows.


 Its a given that it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to increase the cut speed by a like amount.


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## chowdozer (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Thanks for the math Mule.
> Now can you apply the same % gain in HP to a mod saw of say 10hp?
> I am having a hard time figuring out how a 1.4% gain can equate to a 5-7% increase in cut speed, but I am not a math guy.



Ah, yes... a genius in his own mind.

That can't do math. Instead of telling Dean to pick up a math book, you would be wise to.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

> Ah, yes... a genius in his own mind.
> 
> That can't do math. Instead of telling Dean to pick up a math book, you would be wise to.


 Thats all you got? 
I admitted my miscalculation btw?
BTW whats Dean having for dinner? Your nose is so far up........that you should know.


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## chowdozer (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Its a given that it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to increase the cut speed by a like amount.



Are you making the assumption that power gains would be proportional to engine output, and if so why?

As Pest pointed out, engine gains on a aircooled engine may be different than a watercooled engine.

Are you also making the assumption the two engine bearing sizes are proportional to power output, and if so why?

If you're going to disprove, then dis*prove*, don't just yak about what you think.

You have also written in a previous post


bwalker said:


> FWIW you can bet that RCE has tested these bearings in a scientific manner.


and


bwalker said:


> They worked OK, but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno.



What you have written disagree's with RCE's website. Are you their spokesman? If not, I will once again say that if they tested these bearings in a _scientific manner_ and did not have _repeatable results _on an _ultra accurate dyno_, then they would not claim those results.


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## chowdozer (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Chowdozer, Do you consider a less than 1% gain significant? RCE even mentions that the gains are not huge and in no way does my statement in regards to no *significant* gains being made not jive with whats on RCE's site. You might think a 3'' crank is significant, but not me. Some goes for a sub 1% gain in HP.



A 1% gain can be very significant. It can win a race. FWIW, you have established that a chainsaw experiences a 1% power gain by running ceramic bearings. You have established this by guessing. 

Why is your guessing more reputable than someone installing and using these bearings?


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

> A 1% gain can be very significant. It can win a race. FWIW, you have established that a chainsaw experiences a 1% power gain by running ceramic bearings. You have established this by guessing.


 More like playing devils advocate than guessing. The Kart motor by virtue of its larger bearings would stand to gain more by reducing friction as the bearings are physically bigger and therefore have more friction to start with vs a saw bearing. This makes Deans claims all the more dubious.


All things aside. Dean made the claim that the bearings alone resulting in a 5-7% increase in cut speed. 
Anyone thats been involved in motorsport racing at all knows it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to yield a 5-7% in speed.
There is no way in hell a cermic bearing is going to net more than a 5-7% increase in HP that would be needed to to increase cut speed by a like amount.
Thats my point. Clear enough?


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## klickitatsacket (Mar 31, 2007)

bwalker said:


> More like playing devils advocate than guessing. The Kart motor by virtue of its larger bearings would stand to gain more by reducing friction as the bearings are physically bigger and therefore have more friction to start with vs a saw bearing. This makes Deans claims all the more dubious.
> 
> 
> All things aside. Dean made the claim that the bearings alone resulting in a 5-7% increase in cut speed.
> ...



Walker you are so full of BS it is unreal. IF torque levels are at a point that they are not being used to their potential and RPM can be picked up with out leaning out the saw... then it is easy to pick those kinds of gains. You show your hand all too well. You are more interest in trying do discredit my company than trying to look at anything objectively. Ben I know I have told you this before... try building something and not just reading about it or trying to pull it out of your ars.


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## bwalker (Mar 31, 2007)

Now we have magic torque levels...
You do a fine job of discrediting yourself.


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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 31, 2007)

Been an interesting read, I know nothing of bearings but I know cutting times. If times were not done back to back they are meaningless. I can get a 1500 rpm difference on the same saw in an hour. How long did it take to change bearings? I would say that air conditions are too great a variable from day to day to say a gain or loss was made.


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## Big Woody (Mar 31, 2007)

I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.

Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"



> We run slightly small balls (as per an engineers' recomendations) this is to accomodate for higher RPM



Who is the engineer and what type of lubrication engineering expert knowledge does he have? Whats his name and where does he work?




> These are Built on OEM races and we use the finest Silicon Nitride ball available.
> 
> The Advantages according to the manufacturer are:
> 30% less dense than steal balls
> ...



Why use smaller balls if they are less dense and need less lubrication and last 10 times longer? Why can't the original size handle the load and the rpm?
Won't smaller balls give slight play? If the load is unchanged and you decrease the radius of the ball you will increase the contact stress between the ball and the race. By the way, what regime of hydrodynamic lubrication are these bearing in anyways. I'm sure your engineer would have to know that for his recommendations.

Maybe it really has something to do with putting the balls back into the original OEM races?


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## RiverRat2 (Apr 1, 2007)

Big Woody said:


> I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.
> 
> Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"
> 
> ...






Really,,,,, another bearing expert opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## livewire (Apr 1, 2007)

Big Woody said:


> I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.
> 
> Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"
> 
> ...



...must be an engineer! :hmm3grin2orange: 

good post! I need to re-read this thread...Last time I checked in there was aWHOLE bunch numbers flying around! I failed math!


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> More like playing devils advocate than guessing. The Kart motor by virtue of its larger bearings would stand to gain more by reducing friction as the bearings are physically bigger and therefore have more friction to start with vs a saw bearing. This makes Deans claims all the more dubious.


 
You play devil's advocate without any numbers, is that it? As I wrote before, you're making guesses trying to discredit someone who is installing and using these bearings. In my book, that means you're full of ....

What cart engine and bearings did your buddy at RCE use? What saw and bearings did Dean use? You don't know. Maybe you should get facts first. You have completely ignored the comment about air cooled engines versus water cooled. If you're going to play devil's advocate, great, but you seem to overlook anything that doesn't support your argument and I keep bringing it up but you keep ignoring it.




bwalker said:


> All things aside. Dean made the claim that the bearings alone resulting in a 5-7% increase in cut speed.


And that really frosts your gonads, doesn't it? You don't want to believe it. It wouldn't matter if Dean had an independent test in his hand, you would still try to discredit it. It's no secret that you disagree with Dean on everything he posts regarding building saws. Why is that? He builds alot of saws, sounds like his business is doing very well, lotta happy customers on this site. Whatta you got? Nuthin' but words. Alotta guesses. Nothing factual. Have you ever built a saw? Never mind, we already know the answer.


bwalker said:


> Anyone thats been involved in motorsport racing at all knows it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to yield a 5-7% in speed.


Anyone involved in motorsports knows that aerodynamic drag increases as the square of speed. Are you implying that a saw experiences this same speed squared drag???  


bwalker said:


> There is no way in hell a cermic bearing is going to net more than a 5-7% increase in HP that would be needed to to increase cut speed by a like amount.



You seem to have misplaced your proof? I can't find it.

Suggested reading for you. Look at who's using ceramics and why.

Hmmm... lower maintainence on the shuttle.
http://ipp.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation15/CeramicBalls.html

Hmmm... NASCAR, Formula 1, USAC, NHRA,
http://www.aargear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=366


This is interesting. Look at the words under the Formula 1 car. Hmmm.... looks like BMW Oracle reduced the friction on their guide pulleys of their sailboat by *90%*!!! You gonna argue with them?
http://www.designworldonline.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=291

Hmmm... look, they're using them on bicycles! Inteeresting to read what the author writes. $100K worth of ceramic bearings on an F1 car.
http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2006/07/_fsa_cracks_the.html

Wow, Tyler Hamilton had a 19 second advantage over second place at the Olympic time trials. Suppose those bearings had something to do with it?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2005/shows/interbike05/?id=results/interbike0513

Very informative article at Modern Machine Shop. 70% friction reduction and they get better as they bed in.
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0901td.html

Ceramics are here buddy. Now. People are using them for higher operating speeds, lower friction, increased life, higher and lower enviromental temperatures. They're not going away. Get used to it. If Dean says he sees a 5-7% reduction in cut times, you got a long ways to go to disprove him. Flapping your gums ain't going to cut it. Cheers!


----------



## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

> nd that really frosts your gonads, doesn't it? You don't want to believe it. It wouldn't matter if Dean had an independent test in his hand, you would still try to discredit it. It's no secret that you disagree with Dean on everything he posts regarding building saws.


 I do think Deans claims are BS and he doesnt have a independant test. Think that sums it up.
I dont disagree with everything that he has to say.
BTW the differance between a liquid cooled kart and an race saw temp wise is very differant. The Kart runs much hotter....
BTW Woody seems to think you guys are full of it and he is a engineer.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> I do think Deans claims are BS and he doesnt have a independant test. Think that sums it up.
> I dont disagree with everything that he has to say.
> BTW the differance between a liquid cooled kart and an race saw temp wise is very differant. The Kart runs much hotter....
> BTW Woody seems to think you guys are full of it and he is a engineer.



You can think anything you want. There's a saying about opinions, forgot what it is...
Read again. I said _*IF*_ Dean had an independent test... But then there's no reason he should. If he's got happy customers, that's what's important.



bwalker said:


> The Kart runs much hotter....


Show me. Give me some numbers. I already have numbers for a chainsaw. Show me some numbers for a cart. Give me some full load numbers.

Yes, Woody is an engineer. That's great. Funny thing is, if Woody believes in what he writes he's got a BIG argument with the likes of NASA, Formula 1, NASCAR, NHRA, CART, BMW and IBAG North America on the short list 'cuz those people are USING ceramic bearings with good results. If you want a bigger list, it shouldn't be too hard to look around on the web and find more.

Cheers


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

Nasa guys drink Tang...wonder how it would run in a saw? 

Now as to a saw vs. kart. With a race saw Bubba steps up to a log and lets her rip for a few cuts. Kart races on the other hand involve many minutes of sustained full throttle running with engines that are on the thermal edge. Kart engines actually become so heat soaked that they lose HP as the race goes in due to decreased charge density.



> I said IF Dean had an independent test


 Which he doesnt........


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 1, 2007)

Big Woody said:


> I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.
> 
> Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"
> 
> ...



Well, it seems like you are an engineer or at least you pretend to be. So for all who are reading this why don't you tell everybody in here the following

In a 6.35mm ball: 
How many sizes are there? 
How many ratings are there? 
How many grades are there? 
What is the difference in each sub-size? 
How are those grades determined? 
What heat ranges will each grade handle? 
What finnish do you need on the races for these to benificial?

This is only about 1/3 of the questions had to get answers to. I spent several hours talking with engineers from 2 different bearing manufacturers. You being an engineer or at least pretending to be one should ahve no trouble ratteling off those answers. Please inform us uneducated types what is the proper size and grade to run in our application.

60cc-130cc motor
Piston port
running 40:1 fuel mix (dino oil 91-110 octane)
RPM 13,000-22,000
Air cooled (it's a chainsaw)
 I already have the answers.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Nasa guys drink Tang...wonder how it would run in a saw?
> 
> Now as to a saw vs. kart. With a race saw Bubba steps up to a log and lets her rip for a few cuts. Kart races on the other hand involve many minutes of sustained full throttle running with engines that are on the thermal edge. Kart engines actually become so heat soaked that they lose HP as the race goes in due to decreased charge density.
> 
> ...



I work with and for NASA engineers. You don't know anything about them.

Give me some numbers Ben Walker. A timestamped Excel file would be great.


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

Chowdozer, You have data?


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## Tree Sling'r (Apr 1, 2007)

Same old crap as always.
You guys can take your numbers and shove them up your...Well you know.
I don't know math like many of you do, and obviously thats all you have.
A bunch of backyard wood cutters telling people what does and does not work - to those who do this day in and day out.
It is funny how those who bash Dean and his ideas have never proven anything. I have never seen your products in action - I have never seen where people rant and rave about what you have done for them.
All I have ever seen is how a handful of you bring someone down becuase you are not capable of doing it yourself. Jealousy...?
Yeah, I'm a Dean mark - and yeah I have ceramic bearings and yeah my saws will blow the doors off yours.
Keep on talking - keep on reading - and keep on blowin' smoke up your own Arsh, but until you proove your point with YOUR product keep you mouth shut.
Wouldn't mind draggin' half you Sally's to work with me - just to show all day long what you don't know - or have.


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## RiverRat2 (Apr 1, 2007)

*Hey walker give it a rest already!!!!*



bwalker said:


> I do think Deans claims are BS and he doesnt have a independant test. Think that sums it up.
> I dont disagree with everything that he has to say.
> BTW the differance between a liquid cooled kart and an race saw temp wise is very differant. The Kart runs much hotter....
> BTW Woody seems to think you guys are full of it and he is a engineer.



Like tha slinger said,,,,,Paraphrased,,,,,What have you brought to tha table?????

Where's your results????? FTM wheres your saw????? quit bringing up crap about Kart motors, I have yet to see a kart motor sponsor on this site,,,,, Deans work in the sawyers world over time keeps on proving itself,,, AAMOF
I got one of his mildly modded saws an 066 mag W36"b/c that has been in Professional Tree removal/Stump Grinding service going on a year,,,,,, 10 months,,, we cut stumps all over the Golden Trangle of Texas and fall big problem trees at business's & in peoples yards and when we have a bad one,, guess what saw we get???? And when you cold start it people stop what they are doing and usually come watch!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sayin you arent entitled to your opinion,,,glad ya got one we are all different,,,, Ive seen plenty of Deans work in action,,,, in fact i"m building 3 more saws right now,,,,,,copying off of his work,,, and one from BIG DAVE'S Im not The only guy on AS that's running his stuff,,,,,,

Oh and BTW I am a field service engineer @ my day job,,,and that means I spend the better part of my day fixing and making work IN THE FIELD what some design or fresh out of somebody like Big WOODY'S classroom engineer drew up and looked or sounded great on his DES (definitive engineering scope) or on paper (prints)???????????????????:bang: :bang: 

BTW My Baby Brothers & dad have the land clearing, tree removal, stump grinding service,,,, and messin with trees or lumber goes back over 4 generations and if ya pull apart one of OUR OLDER modern pre EPA saws their ports look real similar to what people like dean and BDN are doin to tha new ones to put food in their bellies and feed their families,,,,,,  

I just don't see what you get out of pickin on dean cause he might mispell a word,,,,,a bunch of what he does and has learnd is from workin on em, runnin tha fire out of em,,, yeah he breaks em too,,,,,seems like a while back there was a thread showin one that had a freak failure,,,,, that FYI he did right by,,, standing behind his work!!!!

Most of whati've seen from you is,,,, trying to get a thrill out bustin somebody's chops,,,,,,,,,

Get a grip


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## Chopwood (Apr 1, 2007)

File a faster chain to make up for the 1/10th HP that the ceramic bearings make.


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2007)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Same old crap as always.
> You guys can take your numbers and shove them up your...Well you know.
> I don't know math like many of you do, and obviously thats all you have.
> A bunch of backyard wood cutters telling people what does and does not work - to those who do this day in and day out.
> ...



:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: Hell, Slingr'...don't sweet talk em' like that. Tell 'em straight out...quit beating around the bush and trying not to injure their delicate little self image.   Bob


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## ShoerFast (Apr 1, 2007)

Starting from the beginning , this thread would be a good one if it were not for the flack.

If you want some prof on this, sorry, I have no hard documents on what the gains are, but anyone with a firm understanding of the psychics behind an engine know that the smaller an engine is, and the fewer cylinders there are, the harder it is for that engine to overcome it's own friction and to make its own compression. They simply need to engineer a larger percentage of the available power back into overcoming it's own friction. 

If a 35 HP engine will make an extra 1% gain with ceramics, no facts here, but a 15HP class engine may make an extra 3% , it is very easy for me to believe Dean and others claims that a 7HP class engine could benefit an easy 7% faster cutting speed, and I also believe that a 3HP class engine may gain a larger percentage. Back to the non-supported Shoer's rule, the smaller the engine, the harder it is for that engine to overcome it's own friction, less friction, equals more power. There is not a true NRHA racer that has not tried or saw what a vacuum pump would do (reduces air friction loss on rotating crank, rods and the bottoms of pistons and allows lower tension piston rings) _"The Sportsman pump was worth a* 30hp gain* on a 555ci BBC _" http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

Chainsaws would just benefit better then a cart engines for a very simple reason, but I wont tell Ben, but a hint for the rest, would a chainsaw also benefit from a ceramic nose-sprocket bearing?

How about ceramic bar-rails and guides, the saying is not a fool and his money (another shoer rule, you don't call people with money fools) the saying is from an old Mad Max movie, Speed is all about money! , How fast do you want to go?


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## Tzed250 (Apr 1, 2007)

My dad can beat up your dad...


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> A fool and his money soon part......



criticize me all you want; most see for the crap that it is. This however has crossed the line.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Chowdozer, You have data?



Absolutely.


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## Locoweed (Apr 1, 2007)

Hey Dean

Things are a lot more enjoyable when you add irritants to the ignore list.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

Locoweed said:


> Hey Dean
> 
> Things are a lot more enjoyable when you add irritants to the ignore list.



I'll rep you for that. Completely forgot about the ignore list since Sappy left.


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## 24d (Apr 1, 2007)

*.02*

look'n back what money that I didnt spend on hi performance,booze and girls-I just threw away -so if I get me some trick lil bearings it would really be like save'n money -


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## Jason280 (Apr 1, 2007)

After reading this thread, I think its obvious a few are missing the big picture on the supposed HP gains. Like its mentioned above, it isn't so much an actual increase in horsepower per se as it is a more efficient use of the actual HP created by the motor. Kind of like the claim that a car develops 230hp at the engine, but a dyno on the rear wheels only shows 210hp. Now, developing a method of more efficiently transferring that power to the wheels may result in a HP increase. Of course, that does not mean the actual engine power has increased, just the amount that is meeting the road. Now, apply that to chainsaws and you may see a similarity. The bearings may not increase the gross HP of the engine, but may increase the amount of power available at the chain due to a more efficient transfer. And, as all of us know, more available power at the chain will result in faster cutting times. Which brings us to the next big debate...

I have little doubt that Dean has seen a 5-7% increase in cutting speeds with these bearings. I realize I am relatively new to this site, but I do know how much stock people place on internet websites. Because of that, I highly doubt he would come here and make outlandish claims in front of hundreds of people very knowledgeable on the topic. 

Now, is it possible the 5-7% claims aren't truly scientific? Absolutely. There are quite a few variables that must be considered and must be controlled. These include saw operating temperatures, chain tightness, chain sharpness, wood density, etc... (which don't even take in to account variations inside the wood and the testors themselves). 

That being said, this is merely my observation on the matter. I am in no position to challenge anyone's claims or stats. I own three Husqvarna chainsaws (two 65's and a 136), and probably cut less than 5-10 cords of wood a year. To me, these bearings would be a waste of money as I would see no real gain from them. However, others may find legitimate benefits from these products and I have no trouble with that.


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## Tree Sling'r (Apr 1, 2007)

Chopwood said:


> File a faster chain to make up for the 1/10th HP that the ceramic bearings make.



Yeah, I'm sure you would know.

Don't file - I grind - Pro Sharp.


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

> Absolutely.


 Lets see it. And while your at it do you have any data showing a reduction in friction for ceramic bearings ran in a two cycle?


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

> Now, is it possible the 5-7% claims aren't truly scientific? Absolutely. There are quite a few variables that must be considered and must be controlled. These include saw operating temperatures, chain tightness, chain sharpness, wood density, etc... (which don't even take in to account variations inside the wood and the testors themselves).


 Bingo!


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 1, 2007)

I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to *nicely * (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing. Anyone ever tried to hold a 100 watt soldering iron or noticed just how much heating it can do on a peice of metal metal...... What's wrong with my logic???


Also... back to bearing basics... Don't the balls actually run on a film of lubricant.. not surface contact?


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Lets see it. And while your at it do you have any data showing a reduction in friction for ceramic bearings ran in a two cycle?



Hahaha!  Good one!


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

> Hahaha! Good one!


 Thats what I figured.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Thats what I figured.



Do you know what a non-disclosure agreement is?


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## ShoerFast (Apr 1, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to *nicely * (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing. Anyone ever tried to hold a 100 watt soldering iron or noticed just how much heating it can do on a peice of metal metal...... What's wrong with my logic???
> 
> 
> Also... back to bearing basics... Don't the balls actually run on a film of lubricant.. not surface contact?




Your logic is spot on!

The test would need an infrared running temp of the bearing. If there were a substantial drop, just think of how much better charge density it would have as the mix would not have to carry that heat out. slowly blow a mix of air gas and oil over that soldering iron, at it would never get hot.

Just as your right about the bearing never touches the race, there is a reason they polish them, as the oil flows or gets squished around in a sort of laminar flow , each layer has it's own speed, down to zero speed at point of contact with the ball and race, the higher the polish, the thinner the film and faster the oil flows. Sort of like the tire on a course gravel road, or on pavement, the pavement has a lower rolling resistance, but not a lot more heat from friction. At the size of the oil molecule, the ceramic looks like a plate of glass to the oil, but even polished, the steel looks like barnacles on a boat.


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## sILlogger (Apr 1, 2007)

*I stirred up the Hornets with this one!!!*

I started this thread and am damn glad i did it. to me is seems that ceramic bearings don't increase hp. just free up lost power, much the same that a manual transmission car will get more hp to the ground than an automatic due to the fact that less power is lost in a manual trans. and for you people with you #'s and your attempts to disprove #'s. To me #'s don't mean jack sh*t. i recently modded the muffler on my 066. being a logger and running that saw every day i could tell a difference pre/post muffler mod. you could tell me that i gained .5 hp. and i'd say so what, and tell you to to to take your #'s and p*ss on an electric fence and tell me how much power (in #'s of course) that you gained from it. The ceramic bearing case also seems to apply much the same way that a muffler mod does. your not increasing hp. but mearly freeing up hp. (just the same that performance exhaust is added to a vehicle) another good thing that seems to be the case with ceramic bearings is longevity. ive got an 046 (fav. saw) that i am on my 3rd rebuild of the top end, wore it out stock, 1st rebuild, and am now on a BB. And my next rebuild will probably include rebearing the saw. Now---if ceramic bearings were to last longer than stock(allowing more rebuilds), be more effiecient--how could a person go wrong!!!!Ive worked on my own stuff for years, and built several saws, im no saw builder, and don't claim to be, and im also no engineer. but i can see where the ceramic argument is coming from. And as for all the people who are just looking for somethign to B*tch about---find somethign better to do. i started this tread for information. not to have for people to have a 3rd grade temper tantrum. but if u have something logical and befificial to the thread then im all ears--but find another place to b*tch cuz i don't think the majority of the people here want to hear it. to all that have helped and shared viable info. Thank you.


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

> Do you know what a non-disclosure agreement is?


 Oh brother.....


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to *nicely * (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing. Anyone ever tried to hold a 100 watt soldering iron or noticed just how much heating it can do on a peice of metal metal...... What's wrong with my logic???
> 
> 
> Also... back to bearing basics... Don't the balls actually run on a film of lubricant.. not surface contact?



In the case of a saw, a bearing test has to be isolated from the saw. There is a certain amount of heat the saw generates through combustion and a certain amount of cooling that is available through the intake charge both by the cool charge and the vaporization of the fuel. I know you've pulled saws apart and have seen the signs of heat where there shouldn't be. Cooked on oil varnish and stuff. Heat from the bearing is absorbed by the crank and by the case, both of which are impossible to measure while the bearing is in the saw. I can't give you specific numbers, but one of the websites I listed previously mentioned that ceramic bearings improve seal life. Heat is hard on seals and it takes a fair amount of heat to affect a seal. 

The bearings do run on a film of oil or grease. The reason that ceramic bearings reduce friction is the ceramic balls are much rounder (like that's a word?) than steel balls. With the steel balls, there is rotation and skidding inside the race. Certainly a ball that is skidding is undesirable. Another promising aspect of ceramic bearings is they are somewhat self cleaning. The ceramic is so hard, it pulverizes anything in the race. I think the ceramic is a Rockwell 72 or something. Don't quote me on that.

Anyway, I expect to see them on more things in the future. Certainly on saws as the EPA clamps down on ***, manufacturers are going to be looking at ways to get todays power out of a smaller engine. I am by no means a bearing expert and I don't have all the answers.


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## bwalker (Apr 1, 2007)

Anyone have any knowledge on how cermic bearings handle debris? A real issue when you consider how much crap a typical saw ingests.
In the past I have read that they don't handle debris all the well and when the fail the tend to totally fail in a catastrophic way.


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## 04ultra (Apr 1, 2007)

.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

ShoerFast said:


> Your logic is spot on!
> 
> The test would need an infrared running temp of the bearing. If there were a substantial drop, just think of how much better charge density it would have as the mix would not have to carry that heat out. slowly blow a mix of air gas and oil over that soldering iron, at it would never get hot.
> 
> Just as your right about the bearing never touches the race, there is a reason they polish them, as the oil flows or gets squished around in a sort of laminar flow , each layer has it's own speed, down to zero speed at point of contact with the ball and race, the higher the polish, the thinner the film and faster the oil flows. Sort of like the tire on a course gravel road, or on pavement, the pavement has a lower rolling resistance, but not a lot more heat from friction. At the size of the oil molecule, the ceramic looks like a plate of glass to the oil, but even polished, the steel looks like barnacles on a boat.



I'd rep you if I could.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

04ultra said:


> .



LOL!!! I appreciate your sense of humor!


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Anyone have any knowledge on how cermic bearings handle debris? A real issue when you consider how much crap a typical saw ingests.
> In the past I have read that they don't handle debris all the well and when the fail the tend to totally fail in a catastrophic way.



Small debris well. Bigger debris, never been there.


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## Chopwood (Apr 1, 2007)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Yeah, I'm sure you would know.
> 
> Don't file - I grind - Pro Sharp.



I'll hand square file your pro-sharp into the ground.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 1, 2007)

Now back to the Dean & Benny Show, I think there is going to be a decided winner here soon!


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

ShoerFast said:


> Now back to the Dean & Benny Show, I think there is going to be a decided winner here soon!



 
Bud Light exiting nose, gasp, gasp


----------



## spacemule (Apr 1, 2007)

RiverRat2 said:


> And when you cold start it people stop what they are doing and usually come watch!!!!!!!!!!!!


So, you're saying it's noisier? What other relevance can this statement possibly have? After all, you can't hear how fast a saw is cutting without seeing the wood, can you?

Several of you have said you don't care about numbers. So, what relevance does your testimony have to a performance discussion if numbers mean nothing to you? I can imagine I'm cutting wood with my bare hands faster than a saw can run, but without numbers my fancy is just that, a fancy.


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## bcorradi (Apr 1, 2007)

Gypo - check your pms.


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## sILlogger (Apr 1, 2007)

i figured this would come up, but in my case i was referring to technical #'s, but yes cutting through a log in 7 sec. rather than 10 sec. is important #'s, just that much faster i can go to the next one. And as for the cutting by hand--come on down to southern Il. and ill put u into a patch of timber and you can cut all you want my hand and can imagine how fast your cutting all you want...we'll count the trees at the end of the day!!!! i get your point tho. just yanking your chain.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 1, 2007)

spacemule said:


> So, you're saying it's noisier? What other relevance can this statement possibly have? After all, you can't hear how fast a saw is cutting without seeing the wood, can you?
> 
> Several of you have said you don't care about numbers. So, what relevance does your testimony have to a performance discussion if numbers mean nothing to you? I can imagine I'm cutting wood with my bare hands faster than a saw can run, but without numbers my fancy is just that, a fancy.




Not maybe the answer your looking for, but for many here, chainsaws are as much of a Hobie or way of life as tools of the trade.

The best days I have cutting are the ones that I never look at a watch, eat when I'm hungary , water when I'm dry, listen to the saw, fill and maintain it as I need, never really looking at how fast it's cutting, but keeping the chain sparpe. When I have had enough, pack up for the day, then it's time to figure how much work was done, it's really not as much of a number, it's a day!


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## spacemule (Apr 1, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to *nicely * (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing.


Nothing wrong with your logic. All other things being equal, for one set of bearings to cause a 5% gain in hp necessitates that the bearings must be absorbing the friction, with one exception. It has been argued that the oil film coating ceramic bearings is thinner than steel balls because they are "rounder." 

Now, logic should tell us that the thicker coating of oil surrounding the steel bearings must be transferring at least some of the additional heat being absorbed by the bearings. Fuel mix certainly plays a role in carrying heat away. So, it stands to reason that the entire 114 watts is not being absorbed by the bearing, or rather, much of the heat is being transferred away by the oil mix. Would be interesting to see some crankcase temperature measurements between the two types of saws. What do you think?

FWIW, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's ideas here, just trying to add to a productive discussion.


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## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

spacemule said:


> Nothing wrong with your logic. All other things being equal, for one set of bearings to cause a 5% gain in hp necessitates that the bearings must be absorbing the friction, with one exception. It has been argued that the oil film coating ceramic bearings is thinner than steel balls because they are "rounder."
> 
> Now, logic should tell us that the thicker coating of oil surrounding the steel bearings must be transferring at least some of the additional heat being absorbed by the bearings. Fuel mix certainly plays a role in carrying heat away. So, it stands to reason that the entire 114 watts is not being absorbed by the bearing, or rather, much of the heat is being transferred away by the oil mix. Would be interesting to see some crankcase temperature measurements between the two types of saws. What do you think?
> 
> FWIW, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's ideas here, just trying to add to a productive discussion.



Crankcase temps would certainly tell a story. 

My thought was to grab a 1 horse electric motor and build a jig to spin the bearings at varying rpm's while they're mounted to a piece of aluminum. Pretty simple then to check a new set of bearings of each type. Measure the temp of the aluminum and it's a simple watts/sq in problem.


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 1, 2007)

chowdozer said:


> Crankcase temps would certainly tell a story.
> 
> My thought was to grab a 1 horse electric motor and build a jig to spin the bearings at varying rpm's while they're mounted to a piece of aluminum. Pretty simple then to check a new set of bearings of each type. Measure the temp of the aluminum and it's a simple watts/sq in problem.



Wouldn't you have to put the bearing under load? An unloaded bearing doesn't have a lot of friction..


Look at the graphs I posted in post #7.. Up to 10,000rpm, the temp difference is maybe 20degrees F - nothing..... Sure it climbs away above that, and at what rpm does a saw develop it's max hp anyhow?


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## sILlogger (Apr 1, 2007)

bearing on each side, shaft in between the two with a pulley in the middle turning the shaft, putting a load on the bearing and allowing for both of them to be spun.. just a quick idea. critique as necessary


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## HELSEL (Apr 1, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Thats all you got?
> I admitted my miscalculation btw?
> BTW whats Dean having for dinner? Your nose is so far up........that you should know.




Thats a good one Benny  We all know where your nose has been and still is!!! We have some of the fastest chainsaws in the world. Not to pop your bubble Benny but they are all running ceramic bearings.

Rick

Sorry Benny I forgot you don't like racing saws


----------



## chowdozer (Apr 1, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> Wouldn't you have to put the bearing under load? An unloaded bearing doesn't have a lot of friction..



Loading the both bearings identically would be a bit more complicated.


----------



## ShoerFast (Apr 1, 2007)

chowdozer said:


> Loading the both bearings identically would be a bit more complicated.




No, it wouldent, just drive them from a 3rd pully and load them the same.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 1, 2007)

HELSEL said:


> Thats a good one Benny  We all know where your nose has been and still is!!! We have some of the fastest chainsaws in the world. Not to pop your bubble Benny but they are all running ceramic bearings.
> 
> Rick
> 
> Sorry Benny I forgot you don't like racing saws



Now this would be the winner decider, thanks Rick!


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## Gologit (Apr 1, 2007)

HELSEL said:


> Thats a good one Benny  We all know where your nose has been and still is!!! We have some of the fastest chainsaws in the world. Not to pop your bubble Benny but they are all running ceramic bearings.
> 
> Rick
> 
> Sorry Benny I forgot you don't like racing saws



I think that just about says it all.


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## RiverRat2 (Apr 1, 2007)

spacemule said:


> So, you're saying it's noisier? What other relevance can this statement possibly have? After all, you can't hear how fast a saw is cutting without seeing the wood, can you?
> 
> Several of you have said you don't care about numbers. So, what relevance does your testimony have to a performance discussion if numbers mean nothing to you? I can imagine I'm cutting wood with my bare hands faster than a saw can run, but without numbers my fancy is just that, a fancy.



Yes its loud and yes its faster,,,than my stock 066's as in plural,,,, we have a total of 9 if them between me my dad and my two brothers on three some times four diffent crews depending on whats going on,,,,, we dont time our cuts with a watch if we get some sawmill timber there may be two or three bucking at the same time,,,,dont need a stop watch or numbers to see whos bustin tha spars up tha fastest,,, the hired hands argue over whos turn it is to run my WHS saw.....

I Dont own a set of ceramics but I do appreciate deans work,,,,I am interested in seeing the out come of this thread because there is a good bit info and BS flying around opcorn: opcorn: 

That's about it for me tonight,,,

C'Ya


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## NWCS (Apr 2, 2007)

sILlogger said:


> and tell you to to to take your #'s and p*ss on an electric fence and tell me how much power (in #'s of course) that you gained from it.




sIL: gained about 10K volts, cant walk right and my hair looks all freaky now.. damn you!


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 2, 2007)

Oh, I guess I must reveal that I am a fool* too.

ben, you are a piece of work.




*= Happy Dean customer with one hell of a saw.


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## bwalker (Apr 2, 2007)

So far we got results form the thumb dyno and the ear drum dyno.....
If these bearings are so great why isnt there anything more than unsubstaniated claims proving their worth.
The only dyno data we have suggests the gains where very slight, yet people are claiming a 5-7% increase in cut speed.


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## bcorradi (Apr 2, 2007)

I always thought the main advantage to using them in race saws was because they were rated for a higher rpm. I've had builders tell me how much smoother they were, but that wasn't their main reason for using them. According to them once you reach a certain threshold, stock bearings will start to skate. If this is indeed the case, I can see using them in ????????, but not in woodsaws.


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## bwalker (Apr 2, 2007)

Brad, I know steel ball type bearings will take at least 18,000 RPM as I have seen a engine do it.
I have always heard the main claim in regards to ceramic bearings in a two stroke was the fact that they ran cooler, leading to increased charge density. It seems to me that any slight increase in charge desnity would amount to pole vaulting over a mouse turd in the scheme of things.


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 2, 2007)

just a little tid bit of some of the testing that gets done around here. I do not have to explain it, nor am I willing to tell some about every thing that goes on here. I have access to flow benches and even water brake Dyno's. I also have access to some of the best builders in the nation. Any one is welcome to stop by and visit my shop. You can even hang out and learn. I am more than willing to teach any one.

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/klickitat/?action=view&current=mufflermoddedrun1.flv

BTW, there are those that buy the best they can because they can; then there are those that are just jealous.


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## manual (Apr 2, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> BTW, there are those that buy the best they can because they can; then there are those that are just jealous.



There are also those, that can't afford to, but are intersted in new innovations.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 2, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> just a little tid bit of some of the testing that gets done around here. I do not have to explain it, nor am I willing to tell some about every thing that goes on here. I have access to flow benches and even water brake Dyno's. I also have access to some of the best builders in the nation. Any one is welcome to stop by and visit my shop. You can even hang out and learn. I am more than willing to teach any one.
> 
> http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/klickitat/?action=view&current=mufflermoddedrun1.flv
> 
> BTW, there are those that buy the best they can because they can; then there are those that are just jealous.



Boy, that saw sure is slow!:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Dennis Cahoon (Apr 2, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Anyone have any knowledge on how cermic bearings handle debris? A real issue when you consider how much crap a typical saw ingests.
> In the past I have read that they don't handle debris all the well and when the fail the tend to totally fail in a catastrophic way.




Ben, I don't think you're a good candidate for these ceramic bearings. Your saws seem to ingest a lot of crap!.....Hahahahahaha!


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## chowdozer (Apr 2, 2007)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Boy, that saw sure is slow!:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:



The purpose of that video was not to show cut speed. That camera is capable of some very fast frame rates. It was set on 60 fps when that video was shot which means when you export the digital imagery to avi you're watching it at 1/2 speed because the avi conversion makes an assumption video doesn't run faster than 30 fps, or ntsc video frame rates. Deceiving if you're thinking speed, but more importantly at 60 fps there's alot of data there. I can't think of a valid reason to throw away data so the video shows in real time. Use a visual video camera if you want to watch cut speed. An unscrupulous person could have cut the frame rate back to 12 fps and it would have zipped through that log almost 3X faster than actual, but then they would have thrown away alot of data too. Take your pick.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 2, 2007)

Umm.. I was making a joke.:jester: I realize it was high speed video.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 2, 2007)

bwalker said:


> So far we got results form the thumb dyno and the ear drum dyno.....
> If these bearings are so great why isnt there anything more than unsubstaniated claims proving their worth.
> The only dyno data we have suggests the gains where very slight, yet people are claiming a 5-7% increase in cut speed.




Now your drawing straws!

Your cowering, first off, who has a good dyno? there are very few, and wont tell you what a good ol consistent cutting log like a solid Douglas Fir could tell you. 

Second off, you have been here long enough to know who has reputable saw esperance, chewing at Dean sort of suggest that your cheese has slipped off your cracker?

Try telling Rick to take them ceramic bearing back out cause you say so. 

Try convincing even your self, as I'm not convinced that you are that ceramics are not better. 

You waver between the cost, and lack of proof, bottom line, there like Dean said, there not for everyone.

But for a BTW, BTW, if I were to just treat myself to something very nice, something I would be very proud to own / use, it would have Dean build me one h311 of a woods ported 361,,,,,with ceramic bearings! And at the end of the day, I would never doubt that I could have done more work! 

Since you so asinine about this, I will also give you another BTW, BTW, I am a very happy customer of Deans, every transaction I ever had with Dean was extremely favorable, I will vouch for his caricature, if he says 5-7%, I have no reason the think for a second that that is what he truly believes the gains to be! Put to a true accurate test, from knowing Dean, he is maybe a little conservative on what he really thinks.


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## rxe (Apr 2, 2007)

I hesitate to enter such a hotly debated thread...but....here goes...

I assume that the main determinant of cut speed is chain speed. Regardless of the power of the motor, if a chain moves at 20 m/sec it will cut at a certain rate. All the motor has to do is keep it running at 20 m/sec (or whatever). The user can bear down harder on the chain, and I'd guess it would take marginally bigger bites, but if the speed drops off, then it would start going a lot slower. 

So if the bearings allow the saw to spin faster, even if it doesn't develop a lot more power, then it will cut faster than the raw power gains would lead you to believe. This might explain the difference in power gain to cut speed - and partially explain the apparent dissipation of several hundred watts in the normal bearings. 

I think that what we are mainly doing with modifications is shifting the usable power band higher up the rev range - trying to make the chain move faster while having enough power to drive it at the faster speed. For a given chain and log, having more power without being able to move the chain faster would not help your cut speed.

That's it, I'm off to hide now....opcorn:


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## 24d (Apr 2, 2007)

*re*

every one that has them wants them - some people that do not have them want them - if they are any lil bit less parasitic then they do in fact make your saw cut faster there is no way that cannot be an absolut certainy - if you dont have any and you dont want any I cant see why you clicked on this thread to start with whats more I cant see why in your wildest dreams you would think your comments were worth printing - for sure I will have them in my nx modded saw - I may even get some spares to show my friends what cool bearings I have in my saw 
On a side note my truck has some chrome on it - I cant see it has helped any but I like it and if a pc gets knocked Ill replace it


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## bwalker (Apr 2, 2007)

Its all of the above, Shoer. I have questions if anything is gained in a saw, and have questions from a cost vs.benfit point of view.
A pondo log doesnt tell a whole lot. To many variables from Operator input to differances in density.


Dean, Would you say your motors are every bit the equal of Helsel's, Cahoon's etc? How about your chain building? Is it up to Fales level?
If your answer to any of these is no, wouldnt you be better off mastering the above mentioned skill sets first before chasing miniscule if any gains from ceramic bearings?
To explain it another way. If I where to get into saw racing wouldnt my best move be to master my technique in the stock saw classes, and learn to build a top rate chain before I moved on to mod motors.


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## 24d (Apr 2, 2007)

*re*

well for sure it would not be to needlessly trash out your peers nor to bash any new attempt they may have of gain'n power,speed or effeciency-dean has them-tried them-says they work - has any one tried them and found they didnt???
Iv never heard any one say he was dishonest or were dissatisfied with his work even the best of saw builders seem to hold his oppions in high reguard -you dont seem to own or want to own any or know anything about them -why do u keep bash'n him and the bearings ?


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## RiverRat2 (Apr 2, 2007)

bwalker said:


> To explain it another way. If I where to get into saw racing wouldnt my best move be to master my technique in the stock saw classes, and learn to build a top rate chain before I moved on to mod motors.



Yeah that woud be a good place to start,,,,,,,, bwalker!!!!!

Go For it,,,, learn to build race chains and stop grinding axes,,,

that is unless you gonna tackle the chopin event too!!!!!!

besides you wont need any ceramic bearings in that choppin events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bwalker (Apr 2, 2007)

24D, I never trashed Dean. In fact it twas he who cast the first stone by using childish names.
When one makes a claim they should not fear questioning said claim if its valid. Yet thats not what Dean has chose to do.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 2, 2007)

bwalker said:


> 24D, I never trashed Dean. In fact it twas he who cast the first stone by using childish names.
> When one makes a claim they should not fear questioning said claim if its valid. Yet thats not what Dean has chose to do.




Your acting like this was the only time, you ben a boil on his butt for well over a year now, speaks well of the temperment Dean has!

Lest we forget the cat picture! sorry Dean, but that still cracks me up!


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## bwalker (Apr 2, 2007)

> Your acting like this was the only time, you ben a boil on his butt for well over a year now, speaks well of the temperment Dean has!


 Thats a entire different issue and doesnt have anything to do with this thread.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 2, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Thats a entire different issue and doesnt have anything to do with this thread.




The core issue here, as I see it is, we could not leave Dean and you alone, if your picking up, what I am putting down?


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## ShoerFast (Apr 2, 2007)

Like I said!



ShoerFast said:


> Now back to the Dean & Benny Show, I think there is going to be a decided winner here soon!


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## chowdozer (Apr 2, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Its all of the above, Shoer. I have questions if anything is gained in a saw, and have questions from a cost vs.benfit point of view.




*You're not buying the bearings.
People that are using the bearings are happy.*

Why do you have a problem with that? 

Why does it concern you?


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## Gologit (Apr 2, 2007)

chowdozer said:


> *You're not buying the bearings.
> People that are using the bearings are happy.*
> 
> Why do you have a problem with that?
> ...



Well said. I probably won't ever have a need for ceramic bearings but if I do it's good to have the information presented here by the people who actually know what's going on.


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

> You're not buying the bearings.
> People that are using the bearings are happy.


 Thats beside the point.
People where happy using Slick-50, till they found it it was bogus.


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## formersawrep (Apr 3, 2007)

It always ticks me off when Benny gets a hard on for something and there is just no othere point of view except his. 

For anyone unfamiliar with BWALKER, just look up some of his posts. Not just the attitude of everyone being inferior to him, but the problems he has experienced:
1. Incorrect ELEMENTARY math in this thread, then slamming Dean for not getting it right
2. Tzed 250 - care to chime in on how Benny "educated" you about cylinders not actually being round? That one still makes me laugh a couple years later!
3. Stihl 026 (possibly the most popular saw ever) that was such a piece of junk he could not fathom how all of the other "stupid" people could have purchased one...
4. Snowmobiles blowing up....

He is a saw modification expert, definitely an expert on anything related to the lubrication industry, I am sure I am forgetting much more.....

Could BWALKER = SAP ????? Similar style. 

I posted the below a while back when he was slamming someone else on the forum.

For someone who is such a mechanical genius, you seem to have a lot of mechanical issues. Snowmobiles blowing up, saws not oiling, pistons hitting tops of cylinders, carbs not working, etc. You cut for your own use in a wood fired exterior furnace, correct? What are you cutting...1,000 cords a year? I have worked with people who ran entire fleets who did not have a fraction of your problems.


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

Dont you have a rock to hide under?


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## Tzed250 (Apr 3, 2007)

OMG the round cylinder thing...sheesh. You have to give it to Ben, he fights a good fight, but he has to find his info on his own. You're not gonna convince him. But he will stand his ground , right, or wrong. I just wish that civil discourse was more important.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 3, 2007)

Tzed250 said:


> OMG the round cylinder thing...sheesh. You have to give it to Ben, he fights a good fight, but he has to find his info on his own. You're not gonna convince him. But he will stand his ground , right, or wrong. I just wish that civil discourse was more important.



After a year, it seems a little more like the mouse giving the eagle the finger just before it's eagle junk food.


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## chowdozer (Apr 3, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Thats beside the point.
> People where happy using Slick-50, till they found it it was bogus.



It's not beside the point. People are going to spend their money on what they want, regardless of whether you make a fool of yourself or not.


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

The only fool is the person who blindly spends their money.....


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## timberwolf (Apr 3, 2007)

Still I would rather end up a happy fool than rich, bitter and unhappy.


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 3, 2007)

timberwolf said:


> Still I would rather end up a happy fool than rich, bitter and unhappy.



    I'm good then...


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## ShoerFast (Apr 3, 2007)

bwalker said:


> The only fool is the person who blindly spends their money.....




Think people are starting to wonder who the fool around here really is?


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

> could you share ome of these peer reviews you mention Ben?


 Ignorance is bliss!


> Think people are starting to wonder who the fool around here really is?


 It will come out in the wash....


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## LarryTheCableGuy (Apr 3, 2007)

Seems like somebody is having trouble coming up with anything more than one line sayings or phrases...

.


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## ShoerFast (Apr 3, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Ignorance is bliss!
> 
> It will come out in the wash....



What, that ingorance is bliss, or dose it have a chip on it's shoulder?

Wash away!


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## PES+ (Apr 3, 2007)

HAAAAAAAhahaaaaaa

I drew that one

Ben....in past posts you said that you should follow the oil makers recommended ratios not the manufactirers spec

In a later post you state that you run more oil than the oil maker specs

c'est la vie


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 3, 2007)

Damn, Pest is using search. I hereby disclaim everything I ever said in old posts :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## timberwolf (Apr 3, 2007)

An old Scottish saying about washing...

"A crow will not wash white."


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## Tzed250 (Apr 3, 2007)

" If a sane man and an insane man get into an argument, you will not be able to tell the two apart"


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

> Ben....in past posts you said that you should follow the oil makers recommended ratios not the manufactirers spec


 link?


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

TW, before I eat crow something has to be definitively proved, which hasnt happened yet. Judging by the banter, the lack of certain posters comment and the lack of genuine technical discussion it doesnt appear thats likely to happen.


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## timberwolf (Apr 3, 2007)

> I ran my 346 etech on 32:1 for about 2 gallons of fuel with out issue. I did mod the muffler first though.
> With that said take the etech muffler and throw it as far as you can. The CAT makes the saw run too hot, even after its modded. A new muffler is only $45 and the saw will run better witha traditional hollow muffler.
> Husky silver bottle oil is good oil and bunrs very clean at 32:1.



http://new.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=483589#post483589


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

This....


> Ben....in past posts you said that you should follow the oil makers recommended ratios not the manufactirers spec


 
Does not equal this.....


> I ran my 346 etech on 32:1 for about 2 gallons of fuel with out issue. I did mod the muffler first though.
> With that said take the etech muffler and throw it as far as you can. The CAT makes the saw run too hot, even after its modded. A new muffler is only $45 and the saw will run better witha traditional hollow muffler.
> Husky silver bottle oil is good oil and bunrs very clean at 32:1.


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## Goicoechea (Apr 3, 2007)

In an attempt to bring technical content back to this discussion....

I took a Material Science Engineering Course here at WSU and the professors (all leaders in material science research) demonstrated that cermamic was indeed harder than steel and had some very positive qualities for use as bearings.

My question is: Has anybody running ceramic bearings taken apart thier saws after a long period of use? How did the crank look? Was it more worn than a crank from a saw with equal hours and stock bearings? 

Just a question, not meaning to start another series of poop throwing replies....


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2007)

> My question is: Has anybody running ceramic bearings taken apart thier saws after a long period of use? How did the crank look? Was it more worn than a crank from a saw with equal hours and stock bearings?


 the bearings in question are ball type raced bearings so the ceramic balls wouldnt contact the crank itself.


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## Goicoechea (Apr 3, 2007)

Sorry...just thought of that. Anyway.

How do the races look?

I think the idea of ceramic bearings is very interesting. Maybe I should hurry up and get done with college so I can afford such luxuries.


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## chowdozer (Apr 3, 2007)

Goicoechea said:


> In an attempt to bring technical content back to this discussion....
> 
> I took a Material Science Engineering Course here at WSU and the professors (all leaders in material science research) demonstrated that cermamic was indeed harder than steel and had some very positive qualities for use as bearings.



Lol, it's been 20+ years but maybe you see the mention of Duran around there? He was the head of MSE and my advisor. At that time I would bet he was pushing 70 years, who knows maybe 80. Go Cougs!!!


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 3, 2007)

Goicoechea said:


> Sorry...just thought of that. Anyway.
> 
> How do the races look?
> 
> I think the idea of ceramic bearings is very interesting. Maybe I should hurry up and get done with college so I can afford such luxuries.



we have not had them in saws long enough to do any tear downs. In the bearing industry they are touted to last up to 10 times longer. If they only lasted 3 times longer with out the other benefits then they are well worth the money. Roller bearing should be out in about a year. This will absolutely revolutionize the motor world. In our testing here at the shop which is not scientifically controlled, we have found 5-7 percent increase in cut times. Spool up is so noticeable faster that it makes you take notice now. Now when it comes to weight and density I am getting 2 different #'s. Weight is 40% less than standard steel balls and density is 30%. I actually get confused on that and use the 30% density # when talking about them. At any rate; 30% less weight would result in approx. 43% less centrifugal force being applied to the out race requiring less fluid to lubricate and creating less heat from friction. You can find a lot of great information on Global Spec. about these bearings. They are definitely the face of the future.


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 3, 2007)

I help build the new teaching center at WSU and helped remodel White Hall.


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## Goicoechea (Apr 3, 2007)

It's a small world some days. I think its pretty cool the idea of ceramic saw bearings. Imagine, you could be running your 066 years after the EPA has phased out 2 strokes. And it may be running way better than the orange engineers ever imagined....


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## bwalker (Apr 25, 2007)

Hey Rick H, How are Cliffs saws doing that are running ceramic bearings?


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## HELSEL (Apr 25, 2007)

Well we thought they was a great thing but one let go at the Chardon show. It totally ruined the engine!! We called the place where we got them and the guy said that they are not recommended for use on the power take off side!! That is not the same story that was told when we was buying them.

They claim they are good for 30.000 rpms and take the heat better and are stronger than the steel bearings. 


Rick


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 25, 2007)

who did you get yours from? I have not had any problems with mine yet.


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## e.j. mcnamara (Apr 26, 2007)

*waste of money*

i seen the motor that the bearings where in totaly destroyed the bearings let go


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## BobL (Apr 26, 2007)

Just couple of anecdotal experiences regarding bearing longevity in an extreme situation. In our lab we use turbomolecular vacuum pumps. They spin at about 50,000 rpm 24/7/365. When the bearings fail the resulting noise and damage is nothing short of spectacular so apart from losing our vacuum we don't like our bearings to fail. After going through 3 pumps with steel bearings in about 3 years we switched to ceramic bearings with no significant detectable change in life time. We now use electromagnetic bearings - no failure in the last 12 years - that's 315 billion trouble free revs!


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## sILlogger (Apr 26, 2007)

BobL said:


> Just couple of anecdotal experiences regarding bearing longevity in an extreme situation. In our lab we use turbomolecular vacuum pumps. They spin at about 50,000 rpm 24/7/365. When the bearings fail the resulting noise and damage is nothing short of spectacular so apart from losing our vacuum we don't like our bearings to fail. After going through 3 pumps with steel bearings in about 3 years we switched to ceramic bearings with no significant detectable change in life time. We now use electromagnetic bearings - no failure in the last 12 years - that's 315 billion trouble free revs!



what do you do and where can i get one!!! don't know what they are but they sound cool.....kind of expense tho i bet...good info. thanks


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## sILlogger (Apr 26, 2007)

BobL said:


> Just couple of anecdotal experiences regarding bearing longevity in an extreme situation. In our lab we use turbomolecular vacuum pumps. They spin at about 50,000 rpm 24/7/365. When the bearings fail the resulting noise and damage is nothing short of spectacular so apart from losing our vacuum we don't like our bearings to fail. After going through 3 pumps with steel bearings in about 3 years we switched to ceramic bearings with no significant detectable change in life time. We now use electromagnetic bearings - no failure in the last 12 years - that's 315 billion trouble free revs!



what do you do and where can i get one!!! don't know what they are but they sound cool.....kind of expensive tho i bet...good info. thanks


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## BobL (Apr 26, 2007)

sILlogger said:


> what do you do and where can i get one!!! don't know what they are but they sound cool.....kind of expense tho i bet...good info. thanks



Regarding E/M bearings I think you need to bear in mind the physical load/forces (especially the sideways forces) on turbo pumps are small compared to what are typical for CS bearings. The E/M bearings are a secondary bearing. AT low speed a steel bearing provides the load but as the pump spinns up the EM bearing takes over and is fully operational at full speed. I think eventually someone will come up with a versatile high load E/M bearing for all manner of machinery, maybe when room temp superconductors become a reality?

BTW Ceramic bearings for turbo pumps are readily available. EG see specs at http://www.alpinebearing.com/turbo-pump-bearings.asp


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## Jacob J. (Apr 26, 2007)

There's an ongoing debate among saw builders as to the suitability of ceramic bearings in chainsaws. In the bigger saws, there's a number of factors in the engine working against itself and the bearing component is a very small part of that.


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## Crofter (Apr 26, 2007)

A big cause of bearing failure is vibration. It does not even have to be rolling to have contact point damage to balls and races. A saw is surely a vibration prone environment if there ever was one. I wonder whether the extreme hardness of ceramics is a complete plus in this regard. Is the claimed longevity of ceramics more apparent in a steady load state.


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 26, 2007)

What happens when they fail? - do they shatter? Most failures I see in deep groove steel ball bearings - the cage disintergrates, the balls move, then the crank is jambed.


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## bwalker (May 3, 2007)

> What happens when they fail? - do they shatter?


 When ceramics fail they tend to do so in a spectacular way.
Yake a ceramic ball and a stell ball and strike both with a hammer...The ceramic ball is crushed and the stell ball might be deformed a bit. But Cermic is harder....


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## Big Woody (May 3, 2007)

You might say ceramics generally have no _ductility_ or that they are a _brittle_ material like glass. 

I'm waiting for deano to come up with something in a saw he can market as "Nano". Its been the scientific buzzword for the past 10 years. Maybe Nano Boost Tubes (takes a pretty small drill bit though). 

Remember it takes a pretty small mind to work on Nano Technology.


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## klickitatsacket (May 3, 2007)

bwalker said:


> When ceramics fail they tend to do so in a spectacular way.
> Yake a ceramic ball and a stell ball and strike both with a hammer...The ceramic ball is crushed and the stell ball might be deformed a bit. But Cermic is harder....



Hey ben When have you ever done this and with what bearings. How about some video with that. The reason I am saying this is because you are talking about something you nothing about. Here is a couple of pictures that I just took to show every one what I am talking about.

I just put a ball out of a 088 bearing (new) and a ceramic bearing of the same size on a quality anvil (Peter Wright) and smacked them with a 2 # hammer. The 088 ball was hit 1 time and it split in half. The silicon nitride bearing was hit twice and all it did is dent the anvil. The 088 ball did dent the hammer but not the anvil and it broke.

notice the 3 dents in the 2# hammer and the broken steel bearings.





notice dent lower right corner from the silicon nitride ball in the anvil when it was struck. ( the 088 ball did not leave a dent)


----------



## Big Woody (May 3, 2007)

Why do you suppose the steel ball split in half as opposed to breaking in some other way?


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 3, 2007)

Big Woody said:


> Why do you suppose the steel ball split in half as opposed to breaking in some other way?



What are you trying to infer; I cut it in half with my hacksaw


----------



## Big Woody (May 3, 2007)

Just testing your knowledge of stress analysis.:rockn:


----------



## sILlogger (May 3, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> What are you trying to infer; I cut it in half with my hacksaw



i'd be impressed if u did. thought would take as much skill as building a modded saw


----------



## Lakeside53 (May 3, 2007)

I just went out and pounded a couple of 1/4+ inch balls. Lost one (I think it's embeded in the wall); the other dented the anvil...


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 3, 2007)

seeings how you did not offer an explination for this I will for those that want to know. the hammer dented and there fore was softer than the ball. The anvil did not so was harder than the ball in question. The anvil being harder caused the energy of the blow not absorbed by the hammer to feed back into the ball and left a flat spot where it contacted the anvil. The stresses that the now flattened metal being pushed into a hardened sphere caused it litterally to be pushed apart from the flat up.


----------



## RiverRat2 (May 4, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> I just went out and pounded a couple of 1/4+ inch balls. Lost one (I think it's embeded in the wall); the other dented the anvil...



Smackin yer balls on an Anvil??? Sheesh yall must be Nuts????????????:monkey:


----------



## bwalker (May 4, 2007)

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/membersonly/aug02/features/longhaul/longhaul.html


> However, for these components to perform as expected they have to be machined properly; otherwise, mating surfaces will wear quickly, according to Mandler. *Harder and more brittle than steel, *ceramics are generally more difficult to machine. Ceramics require more expensive abrasive materials, are more prone to edge chipping, and must be machined more slowly than steel to avoid damage.


----------



## ray benson (May 4, 2007)

Hey Klick - NICE anvil.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 4, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> Hey ben When have you ever done this and with what bearings. How about some video with that. The reason I am saying this is because you are talking about something you nothing about. Here is a couple of pictures that I just took to show every one what I am talking about.
> 
> I just put a ball out of a 088 bearing (new) and a ceramic bearing of the same size on a quality anvil (Peter Wright) and smacked them with a 2 # hammer. The 088 ball was hit 1 time and it split in half. The silicon nitride bearing was hit twice and all it did is dent the anvil. The 088 ball did dent the hammer but not the anvil and it broke.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the demo Dean. Now go to your room for doing that to a Peter Wright anvil, your on time-out for that one! 

And you can come out when you realize that Benny dose not need to know anything about something to spout off, he proved this time and time again.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr (May 5, 2007)

*Hmmmmm...*



bwalker said:


> http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/membersonly/aug02/features/longhaul/longhaul.html





> Ellingson sees applications for the laser technique beyond automotive parts. He said that one attractive feature of ceramic bearing balls is that they run with minimal lubricants for long periods compared with their steel counterparts.



Did you miss this?

Just what were you trying to prove with this link?


----------



## bwalker (May 5, 2007)

> Did you miss this?
> 
> QUOTE]
> No.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr (May 5, 2007)

bwalker said:


> > Did you miss this?
> >
> > QUOTE]
> > No.
> ...


----------



## ShoerFast (May 5, 2007)

Aggie


And, that's all he got!

It's really comical, the last time I called him on something, his hope was that I got kicked by a horse! Well I never did, and what have I seen, 200 - 300 since then, and mules! 

Well I had my fingers crossed when I read it, and held a mirror up to the post, he best watch his step if he is a student of Karma!:jester:


----------



## bwalker (May 5, 2007)

> And...


 Seems plausable to me, but that claim has nothing to do with this thread.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr (May 5, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Seems plausable to me, but that claim has nothing to do with this thread.



It doesn't??? One of the points in this thread has been increased longevity compared to steel. I did you just ignore that?

BTW- Your shotgun debate tactics are wearing thin.


----------



## Al Smith (May 5, 2007)

I don't doodley about the bearing but a comment on the test.Why in the world did you dent a Peter Wright anvil.?Those things are almost collectors items.Laminated,steel top,iron bottom,most likely the best anvils ever made.
Beat on those bearings on a piece of railroad iron or something.


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## bwalker (May 5, 2007)

> It doesn't??? One of the points in this thread has been increased longevity compared to steel. I did you just ignore that?
> 
> BTW- Your shotgun debate tactics are wearing thin.


 Longetivity isnt a point of contention when it applies to this thread. Although the Helsels might take acception to that claim as well.


----------



## Tzed250 (May 5, 2007)

Al Smith said:


> I don't doodley about the bearing but a comment on the test.Why in the world did you dent a Peter Wright anvil.?Those things are almost collectors items.Laminated,steel top,iron bottom,most likely the best anvils ever made.
> Beat on those bearings on a piece of railroad iron or something.



So the Peter Wright is the Stihl of anvils?


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 5, 2007)

Al Smith said:


> I don't doodley about the bearing but a comment on the test.Why in the world did you dent a Peter Wright anvil.?Those things are almost collectors items.Laminated,steel top,iron bottom,most likely the best anvils ever made.
> Beat on those bearings on a piece of railroad iron or something.



Because I did not think that it was going to dent it. I cringed. Do you know how long I looked for one before this one popped up? 
any how let's go back to this statement:
When ceramics fail they tend to do so in a spectacular way.
Yake a ceramic ball and a stell ball and strike both with a hammer...The ceramic ball is crushed and the stell ball might be deformed a bit. But Cermic is harder....


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 5, 2007)

judging by the spelling I would say some one was drinking heavy that night and if that is the case we will let the comment slide if you want to tell us you were drunk and talking through your jeans.


----------



## bwalker (May 5, 2007)

Are you saying Ceramics are not more brittle than bearing steel?


----------



## RiverRat2 (May 5, 2007)

*BRAAAAAhahahahahah!!!!*



ShoerFast said:


> Thanks for the demo Dean. Now go to your room for doing that to a Peter Wright anvil, your on time-out for that one!
> 
> And you can come out when you realize that Benny dose not need to know anything about something to spout off, he proved this time and time again.



   

Tried to Rep you Shoerfast but u know :bang: :bang: :bang: 

Thats funny chit!!!! LOLOL


----------



## Al Smith (May 5, 2007)

Tzed250 said:


> So the Peter Wright is the Stihl of anvils?


 Were er,depends on how you look at Stihl,I suppose. Shall we say that Peter Wright is the Wilton of anvils,the Rolls -Royce,The Creme de la creme .

Poor Dean,he is catching more flack from the anvil than from the bearings.
Well,chit happens,I'm sure he didn't intend on denting the anvil.Putting things in context it would be easier to find a cheap 090 Stihl than a cheap Peter Wright anvil.

In regard to ceramics regarding hardness,I have some ceramic inserts for metal cutting that will cut with ease hard steel that carbide won't even touch.The jury is still out on weather it's good option for a bearing.I'm just sitting on the side lines listening ,minding my own business,which is unusual for me.To be truthful though,I really don't know.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 5, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Are you saying Ceramics are not more brittle than bearing steel?



Your out of your league.

There is a place real close to here that will armor your Humvee for you with ceramics: http://www.coorstek.com/products/ceramic-armor.asp

R/C users have been using them for years: http://www.bocabearings.com/main1.a...advanced&OVADID=1721778022&OVKWID=15020360522

Aviation has found there use: http://www.reali-slim.com/products.php

Planing a trip into outer space?:

http://www.orbireport.com/News2001-04.html


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr (May 5, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Longetivity isnt a point of contention when it applies to this thread. Although the Helsels might take acception to that claim as well.



 If you say so.


You still hadn't answered my question.



aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Did you miss this?
> 
> Just what were you trying to prove with this link?



Just so there's no confusion, I have read it and have drawn my own conclusions. The question was what are *you* trying to prove with it.


----------



## 24d (May 5, 2007)

They sure make alot of stuff out of ceramic-has anyone seen any anvil covers?


----------



## ShoerFast (May 5, 2007)

Looking for a site that will prove this statement:

P&W and GE both have new technology engines that will keep flying like 40 - 50 hours "after they run out of oil" !

There phenomenal, and were part of the reasoning behind getting 2 engine AC like the B-757 and B-767's certified for transocean flights!

Not turning the hard evidence up, there there is a couple bucket-fulls of ceramics in them. 






Anyone that have ever been close to a turbine starting to pull some power would understand that it's not by mistake, and steel just doesn't cut the mustard!


----------



## ShoerFast (May 5, 2007)

24d said:


> They sure make alot of stuff out of ceramic-has anyone seen any anvil covers?



That would be a start, huh? ,,,, Maybe some hammers?

+1, check your CP!


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr (May 5, 2007)

24d said:


> They sure make alot of stuff out of ceramic-has anyone seen any anvil covers?


----------



## Big Woody (May 5, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by bwalker View Post
> Are you saying Ceramics are not more brittle than bearing steel?
> Your out of your league.
> ...



Wow, when someone responds to a question as simple as Ben's with a bunch of links that have nothing to do with the question you really get a crisp idea of the knowledge level of the person.:rockn:


----------



## RiverRat2 (May 5, 2007)

*Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!*



Big Woody said:


> Wow, when someone responds to a question as simple as Ben's with a bunch of links that have nothing to do with the question you really get a crisp idea of the knowledge level of the person.:rockn:



well I wonder what's gonna come up next?????? from the Space Center :monkey: cmon Mule I see ya lurkin


----------



## spacemule (May 5, 2007)

RiverRat2 said:


> well I wonder what's gonna come up next?????? from the Space Center :monkey: cmon Mule I see ya lurkin



I never respond unless I have pertinent information to add.


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## Lakeside53 (May 6, 2007)

spacemule said:


> I never respond unless I have pertinent information to add.



and he never tells a fib:rockn: :rockn:


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Are you saying Ceramics are not more brittle than bearing steel?



Some could guess that if there using ceramics for anything from armor, miniature 2-cycle and diesel engine bearings, Certified AC bearings and good enough for NASA, some could think that there strengths out weight there brittleness's,,,, IOW, a superior bearing in some applications.




Big Woody said:


> Wow, when someone responds to a question as simple as Ben's with a bunch of links that have nothing to do with the question you really get a crisp idea of the knowledge level of the person.:rockn:



In hope that this would clear things up for you ,woody? If I may ask, have you anything to add to the discussion?


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## RiverRat2 (May 6, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> and he never tells a fib:rockn: :rockn:



Yeahh!!!! and we are not to believe a single word he says!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

> Wow, when someone responds to a question as simple as Ben's with a bunch of links that have nothing to do with the question you really get a crisp idea of the knowledge level of the person.


 Exactly!
.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Exactly!
> .



That all you got?

Never mind...... Yawn!


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 6, 2007)

*Benny; go find a synthetic oil topic*

ben can chirp all he wants but the bottom line is this:

Ceramics bearings are a Superior product over OEM bearings coming out of the saw manufacturers. This is not to say that all bearings are of good quality. Ours however are of some of the best quality that can be found.
Each batch of finished balls that are ordered has random testing done on 10 samples for dimension, surface roughness and for Sphericity. The blank material batches are also tested for hardness, density and for toughness.

Now I stand behind my claims. We have found 5 to 7 percent in cut times from only switching out the bearings. So have some of my customers. I will also stand behind the manufacturers claims of lasting 10 times longer than steal bearings. 

Now these are not for every one because the price is about twice the expense of OEM bearings. Are they worth that? Well if you need or want them, then they are to you. If you have an 041 being held together with bailing wire and if old trusty only gets used for 1 or 2 cords a year then these are probably not for you.


----------



## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

Deano, dont you have some magic torque levels to chase?
I believe the 5-7% claim to be bogus based on the fact the test methods are subject to error and the fact that others have tested them in a scientific manner and didnt get 5-7%.
I also might add that I dont believe the Helsel's gained anywhere near 5-7% prior to the failure problems they had.


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## 24d (May 6, 2007)

*BRITTLE(webster's)*

(brit'l)adj.( <oe.breotan ,to break)
1.easily broken or shattered because hard and inflexible


in the anvil test I think the steel was more brittle-what do you all think?


does anyone no where the Helsels got there bearings and if they were approved for use in a chain saw ??


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## Tzed250 (May 6, 2007)

I think that there are some people on here who are brittle...


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

24d said:


> (brit'l)adj.( <oe.breotan ,to break)
> 1.easily broken or shattered because hard and inflexible
> 
> 
> ...




I don't recall Rick offering much more on the bearing failure.

But for a steel vs ceramic comparison, if you can squint just right.....







If you take the claims that ceramics are getting in turbo spool-up speeds, and think of how many 0 - 60 MPH runs a chain dose in a day. Lighter and less friction is a faster cut with more HP, any way you do the math.


----------



## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

Is ceramic more brittle than steel?

Turbo bearings and two cycle crank bearings ar not analagous. Ditto turbines, spaceships, etc.
BTW the ceramic bearings used in a diesel turbocharger use ceramic balls and races vs. some home brewed bearing that uses ceramic balls in races of OEM bearings.


----------



## Haywire Haywood (May 6, 2007)

Why the big argument? If you like the idea and want to try them, buy a set. If you don't, well.. don't.. all this bickering back and forth won't convince anyone one way or the other.

Somebody lock this silly thread. :deadhorse: 

Ian


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## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

Since use in RC's was mentioned....http://www.rcpattern.net/2cycle.htm



> Had poor longevity with ceramic bearings.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Is ceramic more brittle than steel?
> 
> Turbo bearings and two cycle crank bearings ar not analagous. Ditto turbines, spaceships, etc.



No need to lock the thread, it's simple.

When you talk to children, it takes a certain knack, as there ability to comprehend is limited. Brings up a point when there are some here that just wish to bash and derail threads, no?

How many more ways dose it take to explain that ceramics are a far superior bearing? And a rhetorical question, are diamonds more brittle than ceramics?

There is a chance that when Dean says that ceramic bearings are not for everyone, he meant that in a couple ways, as there most basic concept seems to escape a few?

_"Is ceramic more brittle than steel?"_ ..............There sure in a lot of winner circles! There out lasting crank-shafts 2 : 1 in engines like the CR, YZ and KX crank's. IOW, brittleness is not in issue, they work,,,,,,, better!


----------



## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

> How many more ways dose it take to explain that ceramics are a far superior bearing? [QUOTE
> The dispute doesnt center on properties, but rather on claims made.
> The fact that The Helsels had failures and apparently som RC guys as well isnt really central to the core of the argument.
> 5-7% is a pretty large gain. Especially given the gain purportadly comes form a redcution in friction and the resulting heat generated.
> Lakeside was on to something when he brang up this issue in the begining.


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 6, 2007)

Hey ben, seeings how you did not answer me back on the IM you sent me I will ask you again in here. 
I can not copy the IM as it is against the rules So I will answer it here and corner you into answering it back in public.

No, I have never had Helsel build me a head. Why do you ask and what does that have to do with anything?


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> > How many more ways dose it take to explain that ceramics are a far superior bearing? [QUOTE
> > The dispute doesnt center on properties, but rather on claims made.
> > The fact that The Helsels had failures and apparently som RC guys as well isnt really central to the core of the argument.
> > 5-7% is a pretty large gain. Especially given the gain purportadly comes form a redcution in friction and the resulting heat generated.
> ...


----------



## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

I never mentioned you ripping anyone off, Dean. I responded to your PM.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> I never mentioned you ripping anyone off, Dean. I responded to your PM.




What about refering to Dean's coustmers as "fools with there money"


----------



## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

Just what that implies...a person that doesnt research before he spends is a fool.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Just what that implies...a person that doesnt research before he spends is a fool.





What? Just researching it here is good info! Calling a site Sponsors costumers a fool, surprised your still here!



HELSEL said:


> Thats a good one Benny  We all know where your nose has been and still is!!! We have some of the fastest chainsaws in the world. Not to pop your bubble Benny but they are all running ceramic bearings.
> 
> Rick
> 
> Sorry Benny I forgot you don't like racing saws


----------



## bwalker (May 6, 2007)

Maybe you are not paying attention, but I dont think the Helsels are so keen to ceramic bearings now.


----------



## ShoerFast (May 6, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Maybe you are not paying attention, but I dont think the Helsels are so keen to ceramic bearings now.



And your point?



klickitatsacket said:


> I know a few guys who have been ripped off by a guide service in Canada. Does this men that every one should not go to your competitors? I m not saying anything about your daddy's outfit because I have never used it or tried it myself. I would personally have to have experience before I would spout off about things that I knew nothing of.


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 6, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> Hey ben, seeings how you did not answer me back on the IM you sent me I will ask you again in here.
> I can not copy the IM as it is against the rules So I will answer it here and corner you into answering it back in public.
> 
> No, I have never had Helsel build me a head. Why do you ask and what does that have to do with anything?



Now I understand; You say that Rick Helsel told you that I wanted to buy a head off of him. Close but not quite. I am backed up to my gills and booked out for almost 3 months and mentioned to him and another builder that if they wanted the work I would sub some out to them. 

Question for you is: What doe that have to do with anything? What business is it of yours and why would you PM me about it?


----------



## Lakeside53 (May 6, 2007)

If ceramic really does give a boost to HP (even a few %), I'd assume every racing bike on the planet would have them?. 

So.. do they? (I have no idea BTW)...


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 6, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> If ceramic really does give a boost to HP (even a few %), I'd assume every racing bike on the planet would have them?.
> 
> So.. do they? (I have no idea BTW)...



just about every high end racing machine has ceramic bearings in them. I didn't come up with this on my own.


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr (May 6, 2007)

ShoerFast said:


> And your point?



He doesn't have one. He thinks name dropping somehow reinforces his argument.


----------



## RiverRat2 (May 7, 2007)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> He doesn't have one. He thinks name dropping somehow reinforces his argument.



Yep I got you fine there Jared,,,,,, u must be refering to ooH Ben Wannna beeeeee nobie internet saw racer Extrodinare!!!!!!!! dang I mispelled a word!!!

I just hate when that happens,,,, where is the college professor, Mechanical engineer, bearing expert, internet saw racer's buddy when ya need him????

Dean you been reading up on this stuff on the internet too?????

oh I forgot you can actually build a saw!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bwalker (May 7, 2007)

> just about every high end racing machine has ceramic bearings in them. I didn't come up with this on my own.


 Which "high end" machines might you be refering to?
I raced snowmobiles and bikes. Never seen one set in either , nor knew any one that used them in that application. Am certain none come form the factory with them.


----------



## klickitatsacket (May 7, 2007)

klickitatsacket said:


> Now I understand; You say that Rick Helsel told you that I wanted to buy a head off of him. Close but not quite. I am backed up to my gills and booked out for almost 3 months and mentioned to him and another builder that if they wanted the work I would sub some out to them.
> 
> Question for you is: What doe that have to do with anything? What business is it of yours and why would you PM me about it?



We'll move on when yu answer this first.


----------



## Big Woody (May 7, 2007)

> where is the college professor, Mechanical engineer, bearing expert, internet saw racer's buddy when ya need him????




I just looked at your profile for the first time. It told me everything I needed to know about your state of knowledge. Isn't the Senior QA Inspector the one who gets coffee for the engineers? :rockn:


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2007)

*Dayummmmmmmmmmmmmm*

Read this whole thread, something I rarely do with any thread. I got no clue who is right, who is wrong and to be honest don't really care. I have to admit though that ole Ben is one tuff cookie. Regardless of anything else I respect a man that stands his ground and refuses to back down whether he's right or wrong. There's alot of pride in this thread, wow. Hats off to Ben and Dean both, warriors I say..


----------



## Al Smith (May 7, 2007)

Good ole Dean is on the edge.He is always looking for improvements for engines .Dean is a doer.

Ben,being Ben and has always been Ben,does what Ben always does,debate.If Dean,in praticular,said the world was round,Ben would debate that it is not pefectly round.If Ben,being Ben,did not do this,Ben would not be Ben.

Having been on many sites with Ben ,I have never seen Ben not be Ben.To coin a phrase,been there.


----------



## 04ultra (May 7, 2007)

Al Smith said:


> Good ole Dean is on the edge.He is always looking for improvements for engines .Dean is a doer.
> 
> Ben,being Ben and has always been Ben,does what Ben always does,debate.If Dean,in praticular,said the world was round,Ben would debate that it is not pefectly round.If Ben,being Ben,did not do this,Ben would not be Ben.
> 
> Having been on many sites with Ben ,I have never seen Ben not be Ben.To coin a phrase,been there.






    .......*Spot on.....*



.


----------



## THALL10326 (May 7, 2007)

Al Smith said:


> Good ole Dean is on the edge.He is always looking for improvements for engines .Dean is a doer.
> 
> Ben,being Ben and has always been Ben,does what Ben always does,debate.If Dean,in praticular,said the world was round,Ben would debate that it is not pefectly round.If Ben,being Ben,did not do this,Ben would not be Ben.
> 
> Having been on many sites with Ben ,I have never seen Ben not be Ben.To coin a phrase,been there.



Thats a pretty fair estimate I would say,lolololol


----------



## chowdozer (May 7, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Which "high end" machines might you be refering to?
> I raced snowmobiles and bikes. Never seen one set in either , nor knew any one that used them in that application. Am certain none come form the factory with them.



I woulda thought that someone as intelligent as you would have GOOGLE on their computer? Perhaps you know everything already?


----------



## Tzed250 (May 8, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Which "high end" machines might you be refering to?
> I raced snowmobiles and bikes. Never seen one set in either , nor knew any one that used them in that application. Am certain none come form the factory with them.



Most frontline roadracing bike have ceramics in the wheel bearings, tranny bearings,and crank mains(two-stroke).


----------



## Al Smith (May 8, 2007)

A little off track but not by much .I've read and studied engines for years,just an interest.Perhaps twenty years ago ceramics were discussed as a way to be able to raise the combustion chamber temperatures to an extremly high level.At higher temp the fuel burns more efficiently and much cleaner.At that time in history,mid 80's,discussion was also being held about the possibilities of ceramic bearings.

Other things were under discussion back then as well.Items such as anti friction coatings on pistons,variable valve timing, bucket tappits ,which were a concept then are reality now.I might point out that electronic fuel injection did not happen over night.

Until this subject of ceramic ball bearings arouse,on another site I might add,I had never heard of them actually being a modern day reality.If however they do show great promise,as I suspect they will,they will likely find there way into production equipment .Nothing regarding change happens fast but change does happen.

Now if and when that change does happen,as it might,Dean could say"Told ya so" and grin .Ben being Ben most likely would still be disageeable but I really don't know.I haven't been there yet.


----------



## 24d (May 8, 2007)

debate'n the shape of the world is one thing-but when you accuse someone like dean,a man with a great reputation, a sponser and a good guy thats always will'n to help us with any and all our lil problems, of sell'n a snake oil product an take'n peoples "fools" money when you have no reason to doubt his word and no way of know'n anything about EXACTLY what cut'n edge product it is he has brought to us-I would have to say it is truely disgusting 

Im thu with this thread


----------



## bwalker (May 8, 2007)

> I woulda thought that someone as intelligent as you would have GOOGLE on their computer? Perhaps you know everything already?
> __________________
> I'm


 Humor me.



> Most frontline roadracing bike have ceramics in the wheel bearings, tranny bearings,and crank mains(two-stroke).


 TZ 250's have steel bearings.


----------



## bwalker (May 8, 2007)

This will all pan out. Either Dean willo take the saw racing world by storm or he wont.
If he is indeed gaining 5-7% from trick bearings and even more from his special port layout his saws should have no problem smoking all comers.....
I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Al Smith (May 8, 2007)

Well,were have you been ,Ben? I figured being Ben you would have jumped on this hours ago but I've been mistaken before.Ah,I forgot,fishing season.

Dean may take the hotsaw scene by storm or not,remains to be seen.What ever the case,the ole boy is a plugger,a doer.Talks the talk and walks the walk.A lot can be said for that.


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## bwalker (May 8, 2007)

Been a bit busy, Al.


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## ShoerFast (May 8, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Been a bit busy, Al.



Busy? :computer:

Who Posted? 
Total Posts: 249 
User Name Posts 
bwalker 53 
chowdozer 25 
ShoerFast 25 
klickitatsacket 23 
Lakeside53 14 
RiverRat2 12 
aggiewoodbutchr 9 
sILlogger 7 
Big Woody 6 
24d 6 
Tzed250 6 
spacemule 6 
Al Smith 5 
Tree Sling'r 4 
livewire 4 
PEST 4 
timberwolf 3 
boboak 3 
Goicoechea 3 
Haywire Haywood 2 
BobL 2 
THALL10326 2 
bcorradi 2 
HELSEL 2 
LarryTheCableGuy 2 
Jacob J. 2 
Chopwood 2 
04ultra 2 
Stihl Crazy 1 
ray benson 1 
rxe 1 
computeruser 1 
rickyrooster 1 
Locoweed 1 
NWCS 1 
Dennis Cahoon 1 
e.j. mcnamara 1 
formersawrep 1 
manual 1 
Crofter 1 
Jason280 1 
Show Thread & Close Window


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## bwalker (May 8, 2007)

Dont you have a horeses azz to go smell?


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## GASoline71 (May 8, 2007)

HAHAHAHAHAHA!     

Gary


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## Al Smith (May 8, 2007)

ShoerFast said:


> Busy? :computer:
> 
> Who Posted?
> Total Posts: 249
> ...


Wow,a statistition type thing.I haven't seen this since Markey went off to race the Idiorod.But alas,I fear the dogs have eaten him.

Score as follows,Ben zero,opponents 97 .Awe come on Ben,pep it up' tis not like you.Onward Ben's soldiers,marching as to war,with the word of Ben,confusing as before.Pep it up young fellow,you are slipping.:deadhorse: Psst,Ben,I'm a rotten guy,Eh.


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## chowdozer (May 8, 2007)

ShoerFast said:


> Busy? :computer:
> 
> Who Posted?
> Total Posts: 249
> ...



LOL, I'd rep you if I only could.


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## ShoerFast (May 8, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Dont you have a horeses azz to go smell?




Not when it's more fun to shake there cage!


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## Al Smith (May 8, 2007)

chowdozer said:


> LOL, I'd rep you if I only could.


 Well,do so,for heavens sake.I myself am somewhat an illiterate dumb azzz but I still get the best of my buddy Ben.Yahoo,doer's do and don'ts don't.just the way the way it is.Arm chair quarter backs never even scored a first down.

Ah,but alas,don't take any of this seriously,I mess with everybody.


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## Tzed250 (May 9, 2007)

bwalker said:


> Humor me.
> 
> 
> TZ 250's have steel bearings.



Well Ben, when I said frontline, I meant the factory sponsored or well heeled privateer bikes at an AMA national or FIM event. These bearings are installed during the race prep of the bike. 

BTW, How many TZ250 bearings have you had in your hands?


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## Jeppsonservices (Oct 23, 2020)

Lakeside53 said:


> I don't want to speak for Dean but I believe he said $200/set in a recent post... I'm sure he''ll correct me if I'm wrong
> 
> Edit - here is is.. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=602635#post602635


$70 online


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## Hobby435ii (Oct 23, 2020)

I have seen an unbelievable amount of nonsense in audio products. It's usually easy to find a way to discount claims.

It's also very important to understand how pervasive self-bias is. The car/tv/bourbon -you- buy is always the best, and you can feel it!

Kevin Cameron is a very highly respected cycle guy. This is what he has to say: 









Five Worthless Tricks For Racers







www.cycleworld.com





"

Right now, reports are rolling in describing big increases in top speed attributed to *5)* replacing 52100 steel wheel ball bearings with miraculous new _ceramic_ bearings (photo above). Hmm, we know that the horsepower required to drive a vehicle through the air at speed increases as the _cube_ of the speed (speed x speed x speed). If we make a change and see top speed rise from 178 mph to 181, we can get a good idea of the extra power required by the ratio of cubes of those numbers. It comes out to 1.0514 in this case, so we can figure it took roughly five percnet more horsepower to boost top speed from 178 to 181 mph. If we're talking about a sportbike, engine power is probably in the range of 175, and five percent of that is nearly nine horsepower.
Each horsepower is 746 watts, which is the usual output of a red-hot kitchen toaster. Nine times 746 is roughly 6,700 watts of heating power. If our five nasty old-tech steel wheel bearings (two in the front wheel and three in the rear) were eating up 6,700 watts of power, or two toasters’ worth each, we should be able to see them nearly glowing after a speed run. Do they glow? For just $27 we can own an MS6530H Commercial Electric infrared remote thermometer, with which to make our own survey.
But wait. I’m all for personal freedom and self-expression. If you feel you must install ceramic bearings, get to it!
"


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