# Illegal woodcutters



## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2008)

The first photo is of a guy who went with a buddy and they had no saw skills.
They denied any knowledge of a scrench and wanted me to put their chain back on.
Their PPE was back with the scrench, somewhere else.

I thought about just how bad they could get hurt so I let them go.
1) I didn't fix their saw out of the kindness of my heart,
2) No ticket because most of the wood they 'broke' was so bad they were not going to get many BTU's anyway.

We were busy doing a prescribed burn and didn't need the distraction.

(see post #8 below for more complete explanation)


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## slowp (Feb 26, 2008)

Wow. Really good load of wood! Most of our firewood thieves have excellent saw skills and are pretty picky about what they steal.


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## stihlkicken (Feb 26, 2008)

most wood poachers I hear of usually target oak or cedar as it will command a higher price. it looks like in the first pic that they have a tag on their load.maybe trying to be somewhat legit.


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## Gologit (Feb 26, 2008)

What exactly made that an illegal load? Nor permit, no fire extinguisher, etc?

One thing about it...they sure weren't taking anything prime. Or cutting the ends off of deck logs.


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## slowp (Feb 26, 2008)

Gologit said:


> One thing about it...they sure weren't taking anything prime. Or cutting the ends off of deck logs.



Got a deck that had to be left due to woodcutters cutting the ends off. Not just cutting up a whole log mind you, but cutting most of the deck ends and messing up the lengths so they would have had to bring in a mule train and there wasn't quite enough left for that. Grrrrrrrr. :censored:


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## rmihalek (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm from the east coast, so explain to me: why was it illegal what these guys did?


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## Gologit (Feb 26, 2008)

slowp said:


> Got a deck that had to be left due to woodcutters cutting the ends off. Not just cutting up a whole log mind you, but cutting most of the deck ends and messing up the lengths so they would have had to bring in a mule train and there wasn't quite enough left for that. Grrrrrrrr. :censored:



Yup...Three day week-ends are the worst. We have patrolmen but they can't be everywhere at once. They hit a Ponderosa deck last year and totally screwed up the length/scale. Local guys probably since they knew how to get around the locked gates and not be seen.There was no sign that anything had been split... they just cut rounds and took off.


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## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2008)

*Sorry*

I should have mentioned that they didn't have it tagged.
The tags you see here were put there after I requested them to do that.
I had to have them redo even that attempt as they put them on with duct tape and didn't punch out the dates. (I did have them drop it to only one tag, (1/2 cord), as they didn't really have what could reasonably be considered a cord of actual firewood.)

The wood was not cut properly. Technically the permit requires you to partially cut 'logs' (even just 6 footers) in a manner where they can't be used as posts.

They didn't have ID and the vehicle was 'borrowed'.

************************

I was in a hurry this morning and blew it. Sorry about the omission of important details.

************************

Mostly I submitted this for the humor of what we get on the National Forests.

They weren't bad guys and it was clear to me that they were not lying. (Look I work around 100+ innocent inmates each year.)
It's just that lack of chain saw training isn't considered an issue by much of the public.


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## 2dogs (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't know how Oregon works but in Collyfornia the registration would be expired.


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## Gologit (Feb 26, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> I should have mentioned that they didn't have it tagged.
> The tags you see here were put there after I requested them to do that.
> I had to have them redo even that attempt as they put them on with duct tape and didn't punch out the dates. (I did have them drop it to only one tag, (1/2 cord), as they didn't really have what could reasonably be considered a cord of actual firewood.)
> 
> ...



Thanks, Smokechase. Those guys worked hard for that junk wood, too bad they didn't know what they were doing.


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## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2008)

*Training*

This was from last October.

******************

I've only turned in 3 brazen illegal woodcutters in 15 years on the District.

Most of the time you run into someone out to lunch, explain the rules and direct them to a good spot, everything's fine.

But you can't train chain saw proficiency.

That is a three day class. Really. That's just to get started.

I was relieved to not be able to 'fix' their chain.


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## smokechase II (Feb 26, 2008)

*Time to post more trivia*

These folks were poor.

This was from about three-four Decembers ago.

There is no woodcutting in December.

This wood had been cut a few months before and they were just getting around to it. The wood was starting to soften and was of poor quality. I could see why no one else wanted it.

I explained that if they didn't get a call from a Forest Service law enforcement person it was because it was so close to Christmas.

"Would they never do this again?"

*********************

I imagine Cops do this a lot on softer crimes or would like to.

Most of us don't like the current rules on or availablity of firewood.


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## Zodiac45 (Feb 27, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> These folks were poor.
> 
> This was from about three-four Decembers ago.
> 
> ...



Good Man Smoke. While these bozo's were in the wrong and knew it, they were probably desperate (based on the trash they took) for some heat. As you said, "this time, a Chistmas present, next time, don't let me catch you."

We get a good bit of this too as Golog mentioned, 3 days weekends are the worse. During Hunting season is another problem time. Some of thee guys out hunting always have a saw in the truck too. Can't get a deer? Get some firewood! I had left a hefty skid of maple (too close) near an access road and the last truck of the day couldn't get it on. Following monday it was decimated. They just attacked it from both ends. So much so that "I was forced" to take the rest for myself   :greenchainsaw:


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## slowp (Feb 27, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Most of us don't like the current rules on or availablity of firewood.



This is true. Here on the Wet Side, we also have to follow the Northwest Forest Plan for firewood. This means that in the LSR (let sit and rot) areas, I can't mark much for firewood cutters so it eventually gets taken illegally. Right now I'm chunking up the blowdown I cut and trying to make sure it stays in the road prism so somebody can pick it up for firewood. The rules are too complicated for most folks to understand. 

Off topic: Springtime has arrived! I had to give up trying to cut stuff in a road. The road glaciers have been receding and I was trying get the newly exposed blowdown off the road. Nobody goes up on weekdays so I could park in the road. I start cutting. A car arrives. I get pulled off enough so they can squeeze through. They ask the question of Springtime, "Is this the road we drive to get to the volcano?" I have to explain that they can't even drive close enough for a view. I start cutting again. Here comes another car.
Same thing. I give up and go down to a wider spot to clean it up. The cars come down and stop. Both questions this time, are "Is that St. Helens?" They are pointing at Mt. Rainier.


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## nepmgmt (Feb 27, 2008)

i was just wondering im a neb to AS and was wondering smokejumper are you a forest patrol or a cop just wondering


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## smokechase II (Feb 27, 2008)

*Not*

It’s been 15 years since I jumped.

I'm just an employee, not an Officer by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't issue anything.
"I've only *turned in* 3 brazen illegal woodcutters in 15 years on the District."

I just run across a lot of folks on a million acre district.
I find something going on that is questionable, I call Dispatch, and they send a Cop.

******************

Sounds great.
Reality is much of the time our few Cops are too busy to come by.

*****************

Here's a good story from that world recently.
Some local dumped an unusually large amount of garbage just SE of Bend,
Got caught because he left a letter from his probation officer in his trash. There was lots of other identification in the trash, but that was the best.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 27, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Most of us don't like the current rules on or availablity of firewood.



I'v always wondered how much fuel reduction a crew of supervised volunteer firewood cutters could do. The talk that the scrub is not economically viable to cut leads me to this thought.


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## slowp (Feb 27, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I'v always wondered how much fuel reduction a crew of supervised volunteer firewood cutters could do. The talk that the scrub is not economically viable to cut leads me to this thought.



Another solution is to have moving campgrounds. Ever seen an excess of fuel in a campground? Or nearby? Like everything else, it would take too much analysis to do--years. Excuse me, I am cynical.


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## rmihalek (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification Smokechase II.

So, is the general idea with firewood cutting in Washington that residents can purchase a permit for a certain amount of wood then go to areas that have been logged and take the left over stuff (tops, limbs, slash,etc)?

Is it up to the loggers to mark the areas that the firewooders can cut in?


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## slowp (Feb 27, 2008)

rmihalek said:


> Thanks for the clarification Smokechase II.
> 
> So, is the general idea with firewood cutting in Washington that residents can purchase a permit for a certain amount of wood then go to areas that have been logged and take the left over stuff (tops, limbs, slash,etc)?
> 
> Is it up to the loggers to mark the areas that the firewooders can cut in?



I can only answer for my immediate area. I'm on a National forest which has to abide by the Northwest Forest Plan (Spotted Owl inspired). The east side would be different, and state and private lands different so you have to know where you are cutting. 

First, you need to buy a firewood permit. It comes to $5 a cord with a 10 cord limit. You are issued numbered tags with dates to punch or black out. 
These need to be attached to each half cord or load. Then you black out the date you are cutting it on. Every month we put out a new listing of roads. We allow cutting ditchline to ditchline on most roads, and some we allow cutters to go 100 feet off of. Otherwise, you need to call us and we will go out and mark the wood with secret ingredient yellow paint. I'll mark trees without requests if I see them too. Cutting firewood on timber sales (logging areas) is verboten. The timber sale purchaser has liability for things and we don't want firewood cutters causing problems, like starting fires on the sales. The loggers aren't even allowed to take firewood home. After logging and cleanup work is complete, we'll open up the areas but around here it is so steep, that about all there is to cut are slash piles. Some of the kinder loggers will separate some of the cull logs out of the piles for firewood cutters. We are also contractually required to close all temporary (spur) roads on timber sales so that cuts off access too. Sometimes the firewood program has money to reopen the roads, but that is not usual. 

You are not supposed to sell this wood. If you want to sell firewood, you need to get a commercial permit. We do put up some firewood sales each year. Confused yet?:greenchainsaw:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention fire season. You have to follow the fire season precaution class requirements when fire season kicks in..June or July and you need to have a spark arrestor on your saw along with shovel and extingusher. There's probably more I'm forgetting...

Now is a good time to be cutting firewood. As the snow recedes, blowdown on roads becomes accessible. There are no fire season restrictions, and your wood has time to dry a bit. That's all I can think of for now.


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## Gologit (Feb 27, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> The wood was not cut properly. Technically the permit requires you to partially cut 'logs' (even just 6 footers) in a manner where they can't be used as posts.



I ran afoul of this a couple of years ago. The feds were doing some thinning on ground that ajoined ours.
Every day I'd see these nice cedar poles all stacked for burning, eight footers, ten footers, whatever. Being in the used cow business I can always use cedar fence posts and these were prime.
I checked with the local office and they gave me a firewood permit for the area....said I could take all the cedar I wanted off of the burn piles as long as I didn't make a mess.
Saturday comes and at daylight I'm bucking cedar poles into eight footers and throwing them in the back of the pickup. Just about had a load on when the FS gal showed up. She told me, and was most adamant, that taking eight footers was a violation of the permit...I had to make them short enough that they couldn't be used for any other purpose than firewood. Big argument then commenced.
I told her I'd buck them up when I got them home. I tagged the load, tied it down and drove off with her still jawing at me. I watched for the flashing blue lights in my mirror all the way home but nothing happened.
Was I technically in violation of my firewood permit? Probably. But there was nothing on the permit that said I couldn't take my firewood in any length I wanted. 
Was the FS gal just doing her job? Of course she was. And I met up with her later and apologized for my behavior. She also apologized for her's. But...she could have exercised a little common sense in the matter and the FS could have been more instructive on the terms of the permit.


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## 2dogs (Feb 27, 2008)

*Paint Colors*

In the NF where I wil be working this spring and summer USFS uses sky blue paint to mark the trees we can take down. A horizontal stripe and a vertical stripe down to the soil. White spots mark the surveyed trees. Is the color system uniform throughout the FS (and BLM) or does each forest use whatever color it wants to?


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## slowp (Feb 27, 2008)

2dogs said:


> In the NF where I wil be working this spring and summer USFS uses sky blue paint to mark the trees we can take down. A horizontal stripe and a vertical stripe down to the soil. White spots mark the surveyed trees. Is the color system uniform throughout the FS (and BLM) or does each forest use whatever color it wants to?



It is supposed to be uniform. We've been kind of an outlaw district here and have used green for firewood until now. Our reason? Wildlife trees have been marked in yellow and the painting on ends of logs--another requirement of timber sales, is yellow. The same shade of yellow. So, we have been forced to change and the logging outfits will probably do their painting after the logs are on the trucks. I stick up No Woodcutting signs as well. Blue is a cut color, and I will have to start using green for my marking soon so others can check up on what I do. But, we have a lot of old units where we've already got painted trees in them and have to use another color because the prescription is changed. We are also having more and more units with Designation by Description. The contract spells out the description and the loggers paint their own trees and I check 'em. Boundaries are white or orange with blue flagging and tags. Gotta be flexible! :greenchainsaw: 

If a timber marker wants to get me mad, :censored: all they need to do is to forget to put a stump mark on a tree or put it up too high. That is the MOST important mark on FS marked trees. Unfortunately, that is the lowest paying job in Timber so the quality can suck unless they work for a politically incorrect tyrant like I did for several years who screams obcenities and threatens to CAN THEM if they don't get their stump marks down on the stump. He'd get canned nowdays.


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## Gologit (Feb 27, 2008)

*Hey Slowp and Smokechase11*

Do your districts do Accountability Checks...where they check the log trucks coming out of the woods for the green tag and brands and shovels and axes and lost log cards and all that stuff?
They usually have the summer employees do that down here. Sometimes it gets real entertaining.


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## joesawer (Feb 27, 2008)

Gologit said:


> I ran afoul of this a couple of years ago. The feds were doing some thinning on ground that ajoined ours.
> Every day I'd see these nice cedar poles all stacked for burning, eight footers, ten footers, whatever. Being in the used cow business I can always use cedar fence posts and these were prime.
> I checked with the local office and they gave me a firewood permit for the area....said I could take all the cedar I wanted off of the burn piles as long as I didn't make a mess.
> Saturday comes and at daylight I'm bucking cedar poles into eight footers and throwing them in the back of the pickup. Just about had a load on when the FS gal showed up. She told me, and was most adamant, that taking eight footers was a violation of the permit...I had to make them short enough that they couldn't be used for any other purpose than firewood. Big argument then commenced.
> ...




Down here you have to have a B liscense to harvest poles. I assume it is state wide. It is not hard to get or expensive, just another pain in the posterier. You also have to submit a harvest plan and get it approved.
On the other hand our local FS employees who over see the fuel reductions are very helpful to fire wood gathering. They even have us seperate oak out into easily accsessable areas for the local people to cut. Of course we have to be careful to protect ourselves from the liability until the job is over.


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## slowp (Feb 27, 2008)

Gologit said:


> Do your districts do Accountability Checks...where they check the log trucks coming out of the woods for the green tag and brands and shovels and axes and lost log cards and all that stuff?
> They usually have the summer employees do that down here. Sometimes it gets real entertaining.



I do that stuff too. We can't afford to hire many people here. We did hire a couple of boys just out of high school but I didn't want them to do anything because of the "entertainment" factor. I usually check when a truck is stopped tightening binders or just leaving the landing. I heard about the chaser headiing down the road on top of a load last summer. I don't know if he was supposed to be branded and painted. Two operators really good at the accountability, two need frequent checking and the words *Shut Down Haul *mentioned. It is harder now but they used to miss log ends on the 5 log loads! And a guy who now has his own logging side said he got fired while working as a chaser cuz he missed one log and the haul got shut down. I asked him how many logs were on the load and he said 6. Duh! Sorry, branding and painting has been a constant battle. 

Oh, for you loggers in the East, the loggers out here have to hammer brand and paint the log ends yellow so we can see them easily if they end up in the export yards. I have been told that the brand will show up in an x-ray even if they cut the ends off. Compression of wood fibers or something. Nobody likes to do it. The truck drivers whine about overspray hitting their trucks, the loggers whine about it taking up time, I whine about the lousy quality of some of it, and the scalers whine if too many staples get put on the load ticket.


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## smokechase II (Feb 27, 2008)

*Firewood clean-up*

John Paul Sanborn:

"*I've always wondered how much fuel reduction a crew of supervised volunteer firewood cutters could do. The talk that the scrub is not economically viable to cut leads me to this thought."*

-----------------------

A few years ago we were putting out public service announcements thanking the woodcutters for helping us clean-up all the dead Lodgepole Pine (Mtn Pine Beetle aftermath).

Actually, if we don't deal with the limbs and tops we have a worse slash/fuels mess initially than if the snags were left standing.

So woodcutting can be an important first step to reducing hazard fuels.

One needs to pile that slash and safely burn or dispose of in some other manner (chipper is good).


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## 2dogs (Feb 27, 2008)

slowp said:


> It is supposed to be uniform. We've been kind of an outlaw district here and have used green for firewood until now. Our reason? Wildlife trees have been marked in yellow and the painting on ends of logs--another requirement of timber sales, is yellow. The same shade of yellow. So, we have been forced to change and the logging outfits will probably do their painting after the logs are on the trucks. I stick up No Woodcutting signs as well. Blue is a cut color, and I will have to start using green for my marking soon so others can check up on what I do. But, we have a lot of old units where we've already got painted trees in them and have to use another color because the prescription is changed. We are also having more and more units with Designation by Description. The contract spells out the description and the loggers paint their own trees and I check 'em. Boundaries are white or orange with blue flagging and tags. Gotta be flexible! :greenchainsaw:
> 
> If a timber marker wants to get me mad, :censored: all they need to do is to forget to put a stump mark on a tree or put it up too high. That is the MOST important mark on FS marked trees. Unfortunately, that is the lowest paying job in Timber so the quality can suck unless they work for a politically incorrect tyrant like I did for several years who screams obcenities and threatens to CAN THEM if they don't get their stump marks down on the stump. He'd get canned nowdays.



What is the stump mark? Is that the vertical mark running down to the soil?


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## slowp (Feb 27, 2008)

2dogs said:


> What is the stump mark? Is that the vertical mark running down to the soil?



Yes, that is the stump mark. It doesn't have to be vertical. I usually go horizontal at ground level. Vertical is good for snow country though and they probably have been told to do it that way. The mark really really needs to be ground level when a processor is used. I've had to have the processor operators cut higher than they really wanted to so we'd have stump marks left. That protects you guys from a timber theft accusation/investigation also. But with Designation by Description, no stump marks required because we measure the diameter of the tree at 4 inches or so to check.


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## smokechase II (Feb 27, 2008)

*Firewood rules*

"*Was I technically in violation of my firewood permit? Probably. But there was nothing on the permit that said I couldn't take my firewood in any length I wanted."*

*******************

As I have been taught in that scenario, we are to show the party disputing any rule or reg that rule in the permit.
Don't quote me or live by this as if my life depended on it.

I haven't read any recent firewood permits thoroughly.
Ours did used to state that no post provision.

Although the next question is:
'Should we have a right to charge more for that when it was being salvaged out of a burn pile anyway?'

Many government employees also do not believe we should be able to charge commercial woodcutters more than private woodcutters for the same product.
That may not be going on anymore near you, but it was at onetime.

**********************

One of the problems with our permits is how much verbiage is in one. If you want to break an opponent in a debate. Go with volume. Just look at this post.

Our firewood nazi's just hate all that word and spin master stuff. The first page and a half of our permit is an explanation of why we don't allow that much woodcutting in a cleverly worded twisted moment of public disorientation. Our wood guards just hate this as they want the rules listed simply, up front, in a concise outline. Then references to page __ on the inside.

But NOOOOOOOO. That is not what is important in a permit.



You're all wrong on that side of this issue.

WRONG !

The Federal employee is suffering under the burden of senseless bureaucracy way more than you woodcutters.

Done


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## hammerlogging (Feb 27, 2008)

During an awful period when I was fortunate to be in school, I was in Virginia and got a firewood permit. I laughed that I was told to cut standing dead (or down rotten and soggy wood if I wanted it) when as a cutter I always left them for wildlife- guess the thought is since cutting firewood without machines they knew we were only affecting snags around road edges. So anyhow, my wife would stand at the bottom of the hill on the road and I would hike up to some giant standing dead, drop it and buck it. Most pieces would roll all the way to the road, well, bounce a bump and tumult their way to the road. She would shepherd them out of the road back to the ditch. When I had a load down there, I'd come down and load it up from the ditch and head out. Really, it was a fun little hour or so of exercise, and of course refreshing to get to play in the woods a bit during this break. A little unnerving to cut only trees thsat were among the most hazardous out there to drop but hell, bring on the action. Nothing like a 40' top tipping back at you as she starts to drop eh?

A friend of mine who was a relatively new forester marked a stand that I cut. So many of his stump marks weren't low enough- I probably cut off over half of them onto the butt log but i knew the land manager and we were cutting on shares so it was not a problem getting audited or anything, just a game to me to spite him, Forester eh? I'll show you how we cut timber buddy, low stumps. Eventually I was marking the timber with him, actually getting paid for it, on rain days and weekends, then cutting it on work days- how bout that for conflict of interests. Goes back to what my first skidder driver told me, don't forget your own blue paint.

Blue is usually the cheapest color, why I've heard its used so much.


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## 2dogs (Feb 27, 2008)

slowp said:


> Yes, that is the stump mark. It doesn't have to be vertical. I usually go horizontal at ground level. Vertical is good for snow country though and they probably have been told to do it that way. The mark really really needs to be ground level when a processor is used. I've had to have the processor operators cut higher than they really wanted to so we'd have stump marks left. That protects you guys from a timber theft accusation/investigation also. But with Designation by Description, no stump marks required because we measure the diameter of the tree at 4 inches or so to check.



Thanks! Snow may indeed be the reason for the vertical mark and a second mark up the stump 3' or so. The snow will stay under the trees until at least June some years.

Is there a prescription for stump height?


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## smokechase II (Feb 27, 2008)

*Blue paint*

We had a small horse logger sale next to a subdivision West of La Pine.

Marked in blue paint. This is the special double secret blue paint that is kept locked up with additives that can be traced in a lab to catch them there thieving loggers.

Just like you'd expect.

Some local homeowners wanted a road widened in a disputed property ownership area. So they found some blue paint that didn't match all that well and tried to circumvent our democracy.

Just like you'd expect.

*************

We've gotten a good laugh and the off-color trees are still growing. Their moving of property boundary signs also has been entertaining.

What this results in is that this is an area where we should be treating fuels and we are staying away from the southern boundary so as to avoid any further problems until this mess is resolved.


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## smokechase II (Feb 27, 2008)

*Blue paint down low*

Most of the time the low mark is unique to a specific timber marker.

A dot, a circle, an X, a slash etc.

This is so the a__ chewing on 'who marked this tree' can be applied to the correct individual.

*********************

The other common way of marking is leave trees in orange paint.

This upsets those that can't stand unnatural looking stuff for the next decade.

*********************

If you see a bunch of black paint covering other paint on trees this is part of our new cost efficiency method where we mark an area, a judge says "what were you thinking .........." and we remark it to make someone happier somewhere.


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## slowp (Feb 28, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Is there a prescription for stump height?



Yes. Stump height is in the A section of the 2400-6 contracts. Ours specify it to 12" max measured from the uphill side but also says higher if stump mark won't show. In the days of the pumpkin old growth, it used to be 12" or a third of the diameter. Of course, there's always reasons for a few higher stumps and that's why I'm out there a lot. 

I was on a forest where an environmental group bought some orange paint and marked more leave trees. I got sent into exile so don't know how that turned out. The stumps in the corridors and on skid trails will get the bark rubbed off, so I try to get paint in crevices or holes or scars where it might survive better. In corridors it'll sometimes stay better on the uphill side of the stump. Some of the old marking paint, you could get high on. I only had it happen twice (that I know of) and my head cleared when we quit for lunch. Kind of a light headedness. Now our paint is waterbased and if I have to paint when it rains....75% of the time, I tell the guys to cut 'em before it washes off.


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## smokechase II (Feb 28, 2008)

*Health*

Slowp:

Just what were the other health risks with the old paint?

*******************

We had some loggers doing a fairly effective scam when they buried marked leave stumps under burn piles.
They got caught by an environmental lawyer from Sisters Oregon and He changed the world.

The really amazing thing was how the logging company that got caught felt about it. It was their right to take those trees and they actually threatened investigators.


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## slowp (Feb 28, 2008)

*Health Risks*

Well, one logger here calls it the old dead baby paint.

Yellow, red and orange used to contain lead. I never was tested but a friend who had marked the same amount of years as I did was and they found high levels of lead in her system. 

Several people blamed the paint for birth defects or sterility. I read the study and it didn't really find a relationship between paint and birth defects but to be safe, the new waterbase formula was developed. If you read the ingredients, they are much the same as the old paint.

The study also found that several of the testees came back from a weekend with higher levels of paint chemicals. They had been painting their house. 

The hysteria was so great for a while, that wildlife people, who tried to palm their marking off on us, dressed up in hazmat stuff to mark a few trees. My guys wanted respirators but didn't want to shave off their beards. I think that is part of the reason we are having the purchasers mark.


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## Zodiac45 (Feb 28, 2008)

I'll say this much, You guys got allot of regs out west! 
In Maine here paper companies owned more of the state than the state does and until lately the regs have favored the rape and pillage methods. We have far too few Wardens for the turf and people get away with allot of BS. The paper industry is hurting now and winding down some, so things are getting better land management wise. All you have to do is take a plane or helicopter ride too still see the excesses of the past though, the clearcutting era. It is getting slowly better now and hopefully we'll continue to replant and manage in a more enviromentally friendly manner.:greenchainsaw:


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## 2dogs (Feb 28, 2008)

slowp said:


> Well, one logger here calls it the old dead baby paint.
> 
> Yellow, red and orange used to contain lead. I never was tested but a friend who had marked the same amount of years as I did was and they found high levels of lead in her system.
> 
> ...



Never tested huh? That explains a lot.  

Here in Santa Cruz a few days ago animal rights extremists did a home invasion during the middle of the day. The victim was at home with her kids and the intruders scared the poop out of the young kids. These environmentalist wackos are terrorists in dirty clothes and the now the FBI is on the case. We are also dealing with tree sitters on the UCSC campus. The last week I have been dealing with the State and the local PD/SO and Parks getting transient camps cleaned up. The bums have been cutting the fences and the cows have gotten out. Last summer the bums started a fire at the lowest point in the pasture but fortunately it didn't go anywhere. I can just imagine lots of orange paint being sold just before a timber harvest up in your AO.


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## slowp (Feb 28, 2008)

Wow. 2 dogs has given me an idea! I can blame everything on being exposed to marking paint! My hardhat is coated pretty well so I can use that as evidence. I also contributed to global warming today....shouted nasty words when Twinkle got stuck in a tree at the top of a cutbank and the wedges and stuff were down in the pickup....all because of Marking Paint Exposure. I think it is better than the Twinkie defense. Thanks, I have it made!
Ruh roh..just realized I have done what the hooktenders do. But my tree was small and broken.


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## hammerlogging (Feb 28, 2008)

For the record, I was definately joking about carrying my own blue paint.

I sure prefer cutting a marked stand to one thats unmarked, of course if I'm on one of the east coast classic pillage diameter limit cuts, theres no need to paint, but if there is some sort of timber objective, residual stand quality objective,and I have to use my conscience and think big and long term (specise mix, vigor, multiple age classes, regen. etc.) while toting around my cutting acoutrements (sp?) and try and fill a fourth tractor trailer every day, well, too much, bring on the paint, please.

The saw seems to be an awfully permanent planning tool, I've yet to see black paint that can put the tree back effectively.


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## smokechase II (Feb 28, 2008)

*contracting the marking*

I prefer to let nature do the marking and harvesting.


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## Gologit (Feb 28, 2008)

Zodiac45 said:


> I'll say this much, You guys got allot of regs out west!
> In Maine here paper companies owned more of the state than the state does and until lately the regs have favored the rape and pillage methods. All you have to do is take a plane or helicopter ride too still see the excesses of the past though, the clearcutting era.



LOL...Do we have a tree hugger in our midst? Rape and pillage methods? Ah, c'mon...isn't that just a little over stated?
Educate us...those of us who've never logged in Maine. Just how bad is it?
Specific examples, timelines, pictures, testimony from the people involved, and varifiable statistics would be in order here. 
Including your credentials would also be appropriate. Are you a logger, a forester, involved in lumber milling, or just another well intentioned citizen?
What's your opinion on clear-cutting? And is it an opinion based on emotion or based on facts?


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## Festus Haggen (Feb 29, 2008)

Zodiac45 said:


> I'll say this much, You guys got allot of regs out west!
> In Maine here paper companies owned more of the state than the state does and until lately the regs have favored the rape and pillage methods. We have far too few Wardens for the turf and people get away with allot of BS. The paper industry is hurting now and winding down some, so things are getting better land management wise. All you have to do is take a plane or helicopter ride too still see the excesses of the past though, the clearcutting era. It is getting slowly better now and hopefully we'll continue to replant and manage in a more enviromentally friendly manner.:greenchainsaw:




Around here there's very little public land open to logging. There are some bigger areas just west of here owned by the paper company (for your TP enjoyment) that are heavily managed. I'd say a clear cut is much more useful for pulp, since they can utilize more of the smaller trees. The mill doesn't even take logs anymore, just chips and pulp bales. My cousin used to be the crane operator, big huge gantry setup, was neat to watch him work. 

Blue is used here too for cutting, but we certainly don't have all the crazy regs, mainly because it's not "public" land.


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## slowp (Feb 29, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> For the record, I was definately joking about carrying my own blue paint.
> 
> The saw seems to be an awfully permanent planning tool, I've yet to see black paint that can put the tree back effectively.



I figgered you were joking. It is a daily joke when I go get my paint. "Just give it to us and we'll make wildlife openings."
"Why not leave a can here and you won't have to do any more marking for a while?"
ETC.
My reply is, "I hear those federal jails are real nice."
Or, "I'm too shy to go to jail." because I'd be in sooo much trouble it isn't funny. 

I do tell them where they can purchase a paintgun like mine. But when I show them all the overspray that will end up on the log trucks, making for unhappy truckers and they hear what the gun costs, that discussion ends.
We could use some clearcuts. My huckleberry patches are growing in and the competition for huckleberries has doubled. The elk are hanging out in the pastures and hayfields and along the highway yearround. Our viewpoints are grown in. But a clearcut is a sure trip to court for a decision. 

The contracts, believe it or not, have shrunk a bit. In fact, ours are about half the size they used to be. Too many of us who knew the old ones retired and they had to fill the jobs with less experienced folks so tried to simplify it a bit. There's not as many fill in the blank provisions and a lot of the wording is fixed so nationwide it'll be the same. I am working with at least 3 different versions. Can't quote stuff off the top of my head anymore because of the changes. 

Well, since nobody is logging. I've taken today off and will spend the weekend cutting a bit of firewood. I've had my eye on a yellow painted one which nobody has cut. The snow has melted so I can get around in my two wheel drive froo froo truck. Got some back up to Doug fir spotted. The Barbie saw will go to work for once and Twinkle gets a break.


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## slowp (Feb 29, 2008)

Here is Nature's Rape and Pillage. This unit was skyline logged the season before and was nicely done. Then a windstorm hit. The unlogged portion across the road also got hit hard. More trees went down this winter and we'll have a clearcut soon. 






Here's our rape and pillage work. That's my white FS truck on road. I'm getting a shorter wheelbase one this year which will be better for turning around in tight places.


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## Zodiac45 (Feb 29, 2008)

Gologit said:


> LOL...Do we have a tree hugger in our midst? Rape and pillage methods? Ah, c'mon...isn't that just a little over stated?
> Educate us...those of us who've never logged in Maine. Just how bad is it?
> Specific examples, timelines, pictures, testimony from the people involved, and varifiable statistics would be in order here.
> Including your credentials would also be appropriate. Are you a logger, a forester, involved in lumber milling, or just another well intentioned citizen?
> What's your opinion on clear-cutting? And is it an opinion based on emotion or based on facts?


 
LOL Gologit. did I sound like a tree hugger? Actually the regs regarding the size of clearcuts have shrunk in the last 10 years. I admit I do love trees, but I gotta eat too and yep I work for a logging outfit. Lately it's running Feller/Buncher Deere trackhoe with a Keto head on it. As Festus mentioned the mills don't take logs anymore, so we cut out the saw logs and some firewood and the rest goes into the chipper. Our outfit buys land tracks, cuts them and resells when we're done. We can't R&P too badly or we can't sell the tract. But some guys have no such problems, they take eveything and I mean everthing. You don't notice so much on the ground working but I have a pilot's licence and fly
around a bit and it looks like the surface of the moon down there in places. I just wonder how long it's all gonna last is all. Getting a bit like the fishing industry around here.


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## Gologit (Feb 29, 2008)

Zodiac45 said:


> LOL Gologit. did I sound like a tree hugger? Actually the regs regarding the size of clearcuts have shrunk in the last 10 years. I admit I do love trees, but I gotta eat too and yep I work for a logging outfit. Lately it's running Feller/Buncher Deere trackhoe with a Keto head on it. As Festus mentioned the mills don't take logs anymore, so we cut out the saw logs and some firewood and the rest goes into the chipper. Our outfit buys land tracks, cuts them and resells when we're done. We can't R&P too badly or we can't sell the tract. But some guys have no such problems, they take eveything and I mean everthing. You don't notice so much on the ground working but I have a pilot's licence and fly
> around a bit and it looks like the surface of the moon down there in places. I just wonder how long it's all gonna last is all. Getting a bit like the fishing industry around here.



Thanks for the reply. I kind of get defensive when I think somebody is attacking the way I make my living...even if it's way over on the Right Coast.
Our part of the country wasn't immune to R&P either and it went on for far too long. That's one of the reasons we have so much regulation...and California is by far the worst. Our Timber Harvest Plan books look like the L.A. phone directory.
 Bob


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