# Organic tent cat control



## Bootlogger (Apr 11, 2010)

Every year I get a pretty sizable infestation of tent caterpillars on my apple trees. This year it looks like I may get a bumper crop of apples, the trees are full of blossoms.

I was pruning this weekend and noticed the first "tents". I prefer organic control methods for various reasons, does anyone have a good one for these pests? Can I just spray them off with high velocity water streams?


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## ATH (Apr 11, 2010)

_Bacillus thuringiensis _ (commonly called "Bt") and Spinosad are derived from naturally occuring compounds. Both target Lepidoptera (moths and butterflies). Spinosad is probably easiest to find under the brand name Conserve SC. The most common Bt I have seen is Dipel, but it is sold in other packages as well.

Whatever "organic" means is often up to the end client (unless you want USDA Certified Organic - then they have all kinds of crazy rules that I don't care to research...). If the only client who cares is you, decide what is acceptable.

If the tree is small enough, syringing with a stream from a garden hose will probably work, but there will still be some caterpillars that want to eat so thiy will find their way back up. Physically plucking them off and putting them in a can to die may be more effective than water.


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## Bootlogger (Apr 12, 2010)

ATH said:


> _Bacillus thuringiensis _ (commonly called "Bt") and Spinosad are derived from naturally occuring compounds. Both target Lepidoptera (moths and butterflies). Spinosad is probably easiest to find under the brand name Conserve SC. The most common Bt I have seen is Dipel, but it is sold in other packages as well.
> 
> Whatever "organic" means is often up to the end client (unless you want USDA Certified Organic - then they have all kinds of crazy rules that I don't care to research...). If the only client who cares is you, decide what is acceptable.
> 
> If the tree is small enough, syringing with a stream from a garden hose will probably work, but there will still be some caterpillars that want to eat so thiy will find their way back up. Physically plucking them off and putting them in a can to die may be more effective than water.



By "organic" I mean I want to be able to pick and apple and eat it right off the tree without worrying about poison. Perhaps I'll try the mechanical control first and if they overwhelm me I'll try one of the products your recommend. Thanks for the suggestions.


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## ATH (Apr 12, 2010)

In that case, you have a huge list of possibilities. Simply follow the label. Any EPA approved pesticide product labeled for use on fruit will say "Do not apply within xx days of harvest" or a few may even say "May be applied day of harvest". There was a LOT of money spent on research to convince the EPA that they could put that on the label.

Looking over a couple of labels, I do have to correct the earlier post, Conserve SE is NOT labeled for agricultural use, only ornamental so don't use that. "Entrust" is the brand of spinosad that is for agricultural use and it is approved for USDA Certified Organic farms.

I actually get a little more nervous about "natural" products because testing for human comsumption of those is much less restrictive if present at all.

I'd use Bt or Entrust. I checked the Dipel label and it says no restructions on using up to harvest. Entrust says do not apply within one day of harvest.

Find labels at CDMS and read up once you narrow your choices.


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## dingeryote (Apr 12, 2010)

ATH said:


> _Bacillus thuringiensis _ (commonly called "Bt") and Spinosad are derived from naturally occuring compounds. Both target Lepidoptera (moths and butterflies). Spinosad is probably easiest to find under the brand name Conserve SC. The most common Bt I have seen is Dipel, but it is sold in other packages as well.
> 
> Whatever "organic" means is often up to the end client (unless you want USDA Certified Organic - then they have all kinds of crazy rules that I don't care to research...). If the only client who cares is you, decide what is acceptable.
> 
> If the tree is small enough, syringing with a stream from a garden hose will probably work, but there will still be some caterpillars that want to eat so thiy will find their way back up. Physically plucking them off and putting them in a can to die may be more effective than water.



:agree2:

bt's(Dipel, spintor,etc) are good for what they are, and are about as safe as it gets. The best part is that they are NOT restricted label pesticides, and can be applied with homeowner sprayers with little worries about drift or nailing beneficials.

The whole "Organic" thing is getting stupid though.
Treat all of the stuff the same. Just cuz it's an organic approved pesticide dosn't mean it wont screw you up or kill you. Nicotine derived from any plant is "Organic" and will kill just as quickly as the synthetic stuff.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Urban Forester (Apr 12, 2010)

The "ultimate" organic would be to look for the one inch long black tar like egg masses in late summer and prune them out. However I would not be adverse to the use of one application of a synthetic pyrethroid. The product is NOT systemic and would be long-gone well before the apples even formed, and "dingeryote" is right, by definition some organic products have a higher toxicity than some of the synthetic products sold today, and are more persistent in the environment.


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## Bootlogger (Apr 13, 2010)

I just ordered Bonide Captain Jack's Dead Bug Brew Concentrate, a spinosad 0.5% concentrate. I'll follow the directions and see what happens. 

I also have a problem with leaf rust spots that my local ag extension person are caused by spores from a fungus on my cedar trees. She said I should cut down my cedars but I like them so I think I'll live the spots as long as the tent cats aren't denuding the branches.

Thanks for the help folks.
Mark
aka: Bootlogger.


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## dingeryote (Apr 13, 2010)

How many trees ya got?

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Bootlogger (Apr 13, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> How many trees ya got?
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



8 apple of various kinds, 2 cherry, and one each pear and plum. It's a relatively old "orchard" planted before the guy I bought the house and land from. He told me it wasn't producing real well but the first year I did some pruning and had a bumper crop. Last year a late frost got all the apples around here (though pears were abundant). This year our last frost over the weekend didn't touch the buds and it looks like it could be another big harvest. If I can control the caterpillars I'm in good shape. I also put down some composted manure around the trees and I'm thinking about adding some soybean meal. Is that too much N?


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2010)

I was wondering if it would be worth the expense to find a used Orchard sprayer for spritzing the orchard.

It sounds like you could get away with a backpack sprayer and non restricted pesticides really.

Have you had soil analysis done yet?

Before you go tossing fertilizer and compost on the orchard, or spraying anything other than insecticides, it's best to know your baseline.

That way you don't make a slight problem a big one, or waste time and $$$.

Depending on your compost, you could be jacking up the ph or creating a nitrogen lock...ya just don't know without a detailed Soil analysis.

Best thing you can do right now while waiting is cultivate the soil around the trees.
Get the fungus turned under before it goes to releasing spores, and interrupt it's reproductive cycle. Tilling messes with the spring hatching insects cycles as well, and gives you the opportunity to initiate planting defensive cover vegetation.

I'll hunt down some links from our extension for ya. We have some of the best and brightest in the nation when it comes to Apples and Cherrys.
Lord knows we grow enough of 'em around here.

Great job on reviving the Feral Orchard!!!

There's likely some nasty diseases that linger in those trees still, but most of 'em can be run out with some care and patience.

Cherry season is coming!!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2010)

Boot,

http://www.apples.msu.edu/


If you start digging into the page and following links, theres a buttload of info for ya on IPM and growing strategys.

Don't be afraid to E-mail questions to the guys either.
They are pretty much Nerds that love to sink thier teeth into new and challenging issues. And it's a free service to boot!
LOL! I have a couple of them on speed dial.

Good luck to ya!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Bootlogger (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks for all the great advice folks!


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2010)

I didn't even think about it, but this link http://ipmnews.msu.edu/fruit/ 
will keep you up to date on emerging issues throughout the season.

Ya might not follow all the heavy practices of a large orchard, but it's good to know what kinda crud is goin' round, and options to deal with it.

Ya got Bees working the blooms yet?

There's nothing like walking in a blooming Orchard with a couple hundred thousand Bees all gettin' trying to "Get R done" at the same time.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Bootlogger (Apr 15, 2010)

When I was pruning last weekend there were very few bees. Should I hold off on spraying for the caterpillars until the blooms are done?


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## ATH (Apr 15, 2010)

Bootlogger said:


> When I was pruning last weekend there were very few bees. Should I hold off on spraying for the caterpillars until the blooms are done?


What does the label say?

If you are using something that doesn't impact bees (Bt), no problem...


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## dingeryote (Apr 15, 2010)

Bootlogger said:


> When I was pruning last weekend there were very few bees. Should I hold off on spraying for the caterpillars until the blooms are done?



If you're using BT's or other Bee safe insecticide it wont be an issue, otherwise you would be doing the local Bees and Beekeepers a huge favor by holding off. Native Bees like the Blue Orchard and Bumble bees are extremely valuable assets to have around, especially if you don't bring in honey bees for pollination and nobody nearby does either.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Bootlogger (Apr 16, 2010)

ATH said:


> What does the label say?
> 
> If you are using something that doesn't impact bees (Bt), no problem...



I'm using spinosad.


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## Bootlogger (Apr 16, 2010)

ATH said:


> What does the label say?
> 
> If you are using something that doesn't impact bees (Bt), no problem...



Spinosad, which appears to be at least moderately dangerous to bees.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 16, 2010)

Best way is to spray with dormant oil *before the trees leaf out*, it smothers the egg sacks.

BT mixed with some insecticidal soap works good, but will take a couple of days to show results

Rotenone is a last resort but never use it during the bloom as it kills benificials too (e.g. bees)


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## Mad Professor (Apr 16, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> I was wondering if it would be worth the expense to find a used Orchard sprayer for spritzing the orchard.
> 
> It sounds like you could get away with a backpack sprayer and non restricted pesticides really.
> 
> ...



Dingeryote, I've a BR400 blower with the optional spray attachment, it makes quick work of spraying my orchard, garden and grape arbors.

I can get the top of my 30 ft standard apples with it.


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## dingeryote (Apr 16, 2010)

Mad Professor said:


> Dingeryote, I've a BR400 blower with the optional spray attachment, it makes quick work of spraying my orchard, garden and grape arbors.
> 
> I can get the top of my 30 ft standard apples with it.



I have looked at those for spot spraying and completely forgot about them.

Glad to hear it it works out for ya.

My biggest hang up with them is the roundabout application rate.

With some pesticides we are restricted to a low volume per acre, and dang it, those are the ones I'd be using. 

It would save a LOT of hassles though.... now ya got me thinking again.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## ATH (Apr 16, 2010)

Bootlogger said:


> Spinosad, which appears to be at least moderately dangerous to bees.


Yes, it is...but it needs to be ingested, it is not a contact insecticide. I don't know how that translates into potential to kill bees if you get it on flowers/pollen.


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## Bootlogger (Apr 16, 2010)

ATH said:


> Yes, it is...but it needs to be ingested, it is not a contact insecticide. I don't know how that translates into potential to kill bees if you get it on flowers/pollen.



I read it could kill as a contact, but ingestion is 10x more effective. 

The blossoms are almost off, we had a lot of wind today and now some rain tonight. I'll spray this weekend after the rain.


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## greenguy08 (Apr 24, 2010)

Boot-you can pm me for organic tree care info.


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## Bootlogger (Apr 24, 2010)

greenguy08 said:


> Boot-you can pm me for organic tree care info.



Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. The spinosid seems to be working well.:rockn:


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