# felling cuts tricks of the trade



## darkstar (Jun 9, 2005)

when i started tree work 20 years ago i lucked up on some old school loggers who helped me learn ... we used to talkl= about a twist shank cut. or an ice cream coner cut ...or the chicken head lop .... any way all the came felling method which if done properly can drastically change the direction of a heavy leaner .. i found this cut described in a book but was never bold enough to try it ... basically you plunge the saw in the tree and cut a spiral down the tree until at the last moment the tree begans to fall and you cut really fast making the tree twist and fall against its lean .... you guys ever do this ? what about other felling methods ???  dark


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## fishhuntcutwood (Jun 21, 2005)

I just use wedges. I don't reckon you'd see that twist cut much at all out here on the West Coast. The terrain, especially slope wouldn't allow it. 

Jeff


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## John Ellison (Jun 21, 2005)

Dark, I don't think I will ever use it, but would like to know what book that "spiral cut" was described in.  

John


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## Newfie (Jun 21, 2005)

I think Dent describes such a technique. I'll have to find my copy and see what he called it, a"step cut" maybe?


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## clearance (Jun 21, 2005)

Don't fool around with cuts that are not allowed by the compensation boards (i.e. W.C.B. of British Columbia). Use the proper methods, undercut 1/4, 1/3 size of the tree, backcut above the undercut, etc. Heavy leaners kill people by chairing on them, there are methods to combat this happening, find out about them if you don't know, save the b.s. for the bar. It bothers me to see people who are not production fallers (you, Treespyder etc) beeking off about dutchmen, magic backcuts, etc.. Stick with the proven, safe methods. Here is one for heavy leaners that really works in your favor-wrap a chain around the tree above your undercut and secure it with a grab hook. I have felled many p.o.s. leaners and generally speaking, while they can be swung, there is a limit.


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## arboromega (Jun 25, 2005)

got a diagram or a picture of this cut. im intrigued.


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## Acer (Jun 25, 2005)

darkstar said:


> ... until at the last moment the tree begans to fall and you cut really fast making the tree twist and fall against its lean ....



Personally, when the tree begins to fall, I'm heading away from it down my escape route as fast as I can safely go.


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## Lawn Masters (Jun 25, 2005)

Acer said:


> Personally, when the tree begins to fall, I'm heading away from it down my escape route as fast as I can safely go.


exactly, standing next to a falling tree, is like holding a mac 10 with a hair trigger to your head. when the tree starts fallin, I'm a runnin.


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## darkstar (Jun 25, 2005)

im with ya on the get the heck on outta there... many loggers down in georgia talked about this type of cut so they could lay all the trees down in the same direction ... i did finally see in described in a book ... i would like to see it again ..not that i plan on using it just of interest ... dark


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## darkstar (Jul 22, 2005)

awww someone has to have seen it in a book somewhere ....


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## darkstar (Jul 23, 2005)

of all the web sites ive seen id recon somebody has that book ? dents ? i sawit once in a book and then these darn good loggers described it to me without me ever telling them about the book .... remember ing most of the pines they were using this cut on were less than 20 dbh ....... ?>


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## Newfie (Jul 23, 2005)

Quick, let's all drop everything and look something up in a book for dark!  ...


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## techdave (Jul 24, 2005)

*no chicken lop spiral in Dent or Beranek*

Hi guys, I looked in both Beranek and Dent and neither shows any kind of spiral cut.

Both address swing and step dutchmans, and both address varying the holding wood thickness to cchange the direction. 

I like the cool names for the cuts when its beer drinking time, but I REALLY appreciate that both GB and Dent are all about safety and professionalism.

I think the more degrees you try to feel a tree away from a HEAVY lean to the SIDE of the intended lay the greater the danger. More estimation in the technique, asking more from the holding wood, less or less consistent holding wood at the time the face closes, etc. 

Both describe bored backcuts on heavy leaners, but I dont think any spirals are mentioned. 

I guess if you had a heavy side leaner and faced it to the lay and then dogged the backcut higher than normal on the side away from the lean the holding wood MIGHT bend more before breaking on the high side than on the low(more flex in taller holding wood of same thickenss?). and if the face was a little closed so the holdwood broke for sure on the lean side so the tree could swing away from the lean. That would look like a spiral cut...sort of.

Almost all my experience in felling forest stuff over 20 inches dbh is trees that died in fire after years of drought. Much different than even the toughest old Eucs down the mountain in the coastal plain or foothills! This fire stuff is crazy hard and very tough to break the holding wood. The good news is open face takes em almost all the way to ground if lay is close to lean. BE nice to get back to soft softwoods LOL.

I aint a pmple on a real loggers a_s but that is what I have found. i aint had the huevos to try to fell a big tree (24 inch dbh/70+feet high--yeah I know, in PNW thats a pecker pole)more than about 20 or 30 degrees from its side lean. i always just vary the holding wood, and pound it over with sledge and wedges. in some ways bigger IS easier, as more room to get wedges going. 

next project is jack a tree as neither i nor landowner climb, loos to big for wedges. 30 inches and 70 feet. I will throweight a holding line (like Asp--- does by climbing) to keep it from backing over. i hope to get pics of that job online. Maybe next month or so. if I do it for him. County may cut it for free. Fire safety program.


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## P_woozel (Jul 24, 2005)

There are a few different cuts that arent covered by Dent or Gerald, my guess is they figure if you got the time in grade and you need to know them you'll get shown them. Beyond the standard face, backcut, and wedges the average treeguy shouldnt deviate too much certainly not on info from a website. A lot of the unsanctioned cuts work well on certain wood fiber only and time of year is also a consideration. Never heard of a "spiral" cut but used a couple other goofy ones with great success, beleive me if a guy saw the stumps you would think someone had lost their mind. Falling is dangerous, high exposure work. No need to aggravate an already difficult operation.


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## darkstar (Jul 24, 2005)

tech dave wrote [[[[[[[I guess if you had a heavy side leaner and faced it to the lay and then dogged the backcut higher than normal on the side away from the lean the holding wood MIGHT bend more before breaking on the high side than on the low(more flex in taller holding wood of same thickenss?). and if the face was a little closed so the holdwood broke for sure on the lean side so the tree could swing away from the lean. That would look like a spiral cut...sort of.]]]]]]]]]]
tech dave that is exactly how it was described to me awsome description ... dangerous as well do you know where i could buy a copy of the book's you mentioned???????????? actually my old logger friend said that the tree would swing off the holding wood and twist around thus leaning the exact oppisite direction ... he said it didnt work all the time and could only be used in the woods where it didnt matter and he always had a good escape path ... i actually though i saw it in a book but wasent sure if it was what he described ... my logger griend worked for me for 2 years and he was one of the best help i ever had on the ground ... amos mcphearson was his name ... 5 foot nine inches tall and 285 ... looked much like mike tyson we used to describe him as a silver back gorilla ... im 5 '9' and 170 at the time amos,,,,, beat me in a 50 yard dash ... sheew he once got arrested for his usual to much drink and some fighting ...word around town was it took 5 cops to NOT BE ABLE TO HOLD HIM ] they said amos was flinging them off like pop corn and that they finally just reasoned with him so he got in their car ... we were headed to the pulp yard one day with 8 tons of short stick ..the old yards would take wood 5 foot long ..anyhow a police ordered me off the road for a funeral procession ... and i tried to motion to the cop that with a load of short stick all i could do was stop and not vear off the road as the angle would cause me to dump my load ... well he screamed at me and threatend me so i went like one foot off the road and of course the load dumped ..almmost flipped the truck ... a old f 700 with logs stacked sideways very high ... well me and amos mostly amos had to hand re load the entire 8 tons all i could do was push logs on his sholder and hed heave umm up 'slinging wood ' as he called it ... we/[[he]] loaded all 8 ton in 45 mins ...the cop came back and aplogized .... sure do miss old amos


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## techdave (Jul 25, 2005)

Hi Pwoozel, I have not tried any of the 'funny cuts" described by both authors. I did try using a rolling snipe on some 16 inch 30 foot pines in an area with good clear lay and escape routes. Just dropping dead spars to clear up a view of Lake Cuyamaca for a buddy whose cabin burned. 

I definitely hear what you are saying about not making more things difficult or dangerous. The only variations on basic I do are bored backcut on heavy head leaners; and varied width of holding wood to swing slight side leaners. Swings has only been to keep the lays from crossing each other and the trees unbroken-not to agvoid anything valuable like ahouse or weel or water tank. . I have already refused on 3 falling jobs, and found out later that no local tree company would touch two of them. One was was started by "hosers" from down in San Diego proper who had no experince in a forest enviorment. The 100 degree heat, 5000 foot altitude, and the @#$#@! tripping stubs of manzanita and scrub oak induced them to quit halfway (according to landowners neighbor-grain of salt time?). 

I feel bad for the mountain people, but I aint getting maimed trying to help anybody just cuz they are poor either. Plus there ARE a few really good tree guys up in the Julian area. Customers just have to a--wait for them to have an opening, and b--pay full freight for what needs doing. Nothin wrong with that.

Too many trees and not enough pros overall as we do not have timber industry. I heard (Julian paper)they imported guys from NoCal and Oregon to do the falling and bucking for the program that will remove dead trees within about 100 feet of all main roads. Asp__h used a crew of Salvadorenos run by a Mexican guy to do the bulk of clearance of the powerlines immediately after the fire. Took several months, crew usually worked in Houston Tx.

Speaking of helping others, Mennonite disaster relief folks have been awesome! Volunteers come out for a few weeks or months and rebuild peoples houses for free!


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## techdave (Jul 25, 2005)

*falling cuts*

Hi darkstar, i think all of us who have ever sweat for wages knew a guy like Amos. i can just see him throwing them logs up there like a caber toss! I dont think the cut I described is in either book(Dent or Beranek-Baileys has them both). I was just guessing that would be how it would work. of course there is so much info in ONE of those books my head hurts, let alone trying to remember all of BOTH. 

I guess in a way varying the height of the holding wood to get a swing is just another technique like varying the thickness fo the holding wood to get a swing, I just KNOW I would not have the hair to hang around that close for that long. Heck I dont know if I have the hair to try to move heavy side leaner that far across the lay?? 

Good topic, I like to hear about stuff like that from oldtimers.I wonder though how many percent of the people here fell a lot. Seems like most arborist deals require climb, then cut and drop or cut and rig down. 




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