# What makes a "Fast Cycle" splitter?



## papossefan (Jan 1, 2016)

Ok, at the risk of asking a stupid question, here it goes. I have been thinking about building a new splitter. The most important thing to me is that it has the fastest cycle time I can get. I really like the simple design of the iron & oak 20 ton fast cycle splitter so I will probably be modeling mine after this. My question is, What really makes this splitter cycle faster? In my mind, the faster you can get the oil into and back out of the cylinder the faster your cycle time will be. Is this line of thinking correct? I know they are using a 16gpm pump and a 4x24x1.75 cylinder. I also can get a valve with 3/4" ports which should help but all of the cylinders I look at have the same 1/2" ports. So I am left wondering is it worth using a valve with larger ports and bigger lines etc. if my flow will be limited to the 1/2" ports on the cylinder anyway? 
Thanks in advance for any advice on this topic.

Ryan


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## rarefish383 (Jan 1, 2016)

My home built with a 6hp engine and 16 GPM pump is much faster than my store bought 11 GPM with a 6 hp engine, Joe.


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## Oldman47 (Jan 1, 2016)

Bigger diameter cylinder means slower cycle time but a stronger push, more tons. Faster fluid flow in both directions means faster cycle time but that includes pump capacity, supply line diameter, control valve flow rates and return line diameter. All have to get bigger to move more hydraulic fluid and shorten the cycle.


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## Kevin in Ohio (Jan 1, 2016)

Depends on what you call fast I guess. Heat Should be a BIG consideration as well because small ports, hard 90's will build it up quick. They may be using a larger than normal rod to get a faster return stroke on the ones you mention. If you want fast search till you find a cylinder with bigger ports. If you can't find one check with your local hydraulics place to have larger bungs welded on. You are correct in saying that your smallest diameter is the restriction point. If you have to have a 90 degree bend, at least use a long sweep. Hard 90's look clean in design but build heat bad. Do your layout to avoid them as much as possible.

I'm running a 5 inch cylinder with a 2 1/2 inch rod, 28 gpm pump. On the 24 inch stroke in first stage it's 8.5 seconds out and 6 seconds on return at 3/4 throttle. I'm running a bypass to save wear and tear on the valve too.


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## mesupra (Jan 1, 2016)

A rack and pinion.


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## USMC615 (Jan 1, 2016)

mesupra said:


> A rack and pinion.


...with flywheels attached. Spot on!!


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## Del_ (Jan 1, 2016)

Two speed hyd pumps. Regenerative valves. Large diameter rods. Big pumps and motors. As short a cylinder as is workable, 24" for me. Auto return valve. Locking forward valve. 4 or more way wedges. Self propelled splitter. Log lift. Conveyor.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

Iron and oak is advertising different numbers for the fast cycle 20ton than you are writing. According to there ad's the fast 20 has a 4.5x2x24 cylinder and not the 4x1.75x24in cyl you suggested. To get 20tons they probably have the pressure set at around 2500psi. Also the 8sec cycltime advertised should be about 11.2sec, give or take a few billion years. Anyways, if you copy their design and use the 4in cyl with smaller rod dia, you would have the approx 8 sec cycle time (closer to 9 sec) you are trying to match. Going to a cyl with a 2in rod will only speed up the cycle time by .2 sec, not worth the effort or extra cost of the bigger rod. To keep heat down to a minimum without a lot of extra expense, I would look for the cyl with the 3/4 ports as well as try to find a splitter control valve rated for 25gpm. the bigger ports in the cyl and valve will reduce the velocity of the oil flowing back to the tank on return stroke, which in turn will reduce heat. I would also try to build or find a hydraulic tank in the 15gpm range. Set hyd pressure to around 3000psi which would give you about 19tons of splitting force. You will need a 8hp min engine to pull the pump. To increase splitting speed, I suggest using a 4way wedge, you can make it removable or height adjustable for those few times you run into a round you cant split. I can say for certain the 4in cyl with a 4 way wedge is going to hard to stall. If you need cycle time faster than 8 sec, you can always go with the 22gpm twostage pump and a little bigger engine, but if you can keep a 8sec cycle time fed wood, your a better man than most of us.


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## USMC615 (Jan 2, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Iron and oak is advertising different numbers for the fast cycle 20ton than you are writing. According to there ad's the fast 20 has a 4.5x2x24 cylinder and not the 4x1.75x24in cyl you suggested. To get 20tons they probably have the pressure set at around 2500psi. Also the 8sec cycltime advertised should be about 11.2sec, give or take a few billion years. Anyways, if you copy their design and use the 4in cyl with smaller rod dia, you would have the approx 8 sec cycle time (closer to 9 sec) you are trying to match. Going to a cyl with a 2in rod will only speed up the cycle time by .2 sec, not worth the effort or extra cost of the bigger rod. To keep heat down to a minimum without a lot of extra expense, I would look for the cyl with the 3/4 ports as well as try to find a splitter control valve rated for 25gpm. the bigger ports in the cyl and valve will reduce the velocity of the oil flowing back to the tank on return stroke, which in turn will reduce heat. I would also try to build or find a hydraulic tank in the 15gpm range. Set hyd pressure to around 3000psi which would give you about 19tons of splitting force. You will need a 8hp min engine to pull the pump. To increase splitting speed, I suggest using a 4way wedge, you can make it removable or height adjustable for those few times you run into a round you cant split. I can say for certain the 4in cyl with a 4 way wedge is going to hard to stall. If you need cycle time faster than 8 sec, you can always go with the 22gpm twostage pump and a little bigger engine, but if you can keep a 8sec cycle time fed wood, your a better man than most of us.


Good post...straight talk.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 2, 2016)

Fast cycle to me would be a complete cycle in no longer than about 5 seconds.


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## mesupra (Jan 2, 2016)

Less than 2 seconds for me. Depending on the wood there can be an advantage to hydro esp when using 4 and 6 way wedges.


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## zogger (Jan 2, 2016)

oh noes I am going to bring it up..

I am not knowledgeable in these hydro splitter discussions at all, but still read them. I see this heat buildup with the fluid brought up a lot. Well..which is the best hydraulic fluid then, one that maintains..whatever it has to..but,,is able to resist this heat buildup better, by absorbing then dumping heat fast? There *must* be some differences out there.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

What heats up the oil more than anything is the speed of the oil as it goes thru the valves, cyl, hoses and fittings. You can pump a lot of oil thru a small fitting but, each restriction the oil flows thru increases the velocity of the oil. Velocity of the oil flow creates friction and friction creates heat. Some of this heat is given off as parts heat up, but the oil is moving so fast thru those parts, it cant give off all the heat it accumilates. The only time the oil slows down in when its in the tank. A small capacity tank doesnt have the surface area to allow all the oil to cool off so heat will continue to build as it circulates thru the system. Tank size should be matched to oil flow and the usual recommendation is One gal capacity for each gpm being pumped. Hyd tanks should be long, narrow and tall instead of short and square to allow oil more surface contact for faster heat removal.

A point to remember is that the pump is still circulating oil, even when your not operating the control valves running the cyls in and out. Also pumps flows can be much higher than pump ratings when you are operating the control valves. A hydraulic cyl extending and retracting does change the values of oil flowing thru the control valve. The reason for this is due to the cyl rod taking up space in the cyl bore. When you are extending the cyl you are putting oil to the piston side of the cyl, the rod end has less oil holding capacity so as the cyl extends, oil flow going back thru the valve may be as much as 1/2 the amount of oil that is being pumped into the cyl. The opposite is also true, on cyl retraction, you are now putting oil into the rod end of cyl and the oil coming from the piston end can be twice as much as is entering the rod end. If you have a oil flow rate of 16gpm going into the rod end for retraction of the cyl, you could have 32 gpm coming out of the piston end. That little 7.5gal hydraulic tank should be starting to look pretty small by now.The bigger the dia of the rod, the faster the oil will be coming out of the piston end of the cyl. 

There all kinds charts giving fitting and port sizes for various flow rates. Most of the splitter valves on larger systems use 3/4in ports. A 3/4in port can flow about 30gpm before velocity and associated heat starts becoming a problem. Not saying you cant pump 60gpm thru a 3/4in port, in fact, 60gpm will flow pretty easily thru a 3/4in port, but if you do, you will see a heat build up. Using dump valves to bypass oil around the control valve back to tank wont neccessary speed up cycle time. Reason being the oil still has to flow thru the cyl ports before reaching the dump valve. If you plan on using a dump valve to increase cyl speed, its best to also use a cyl with bigger ports, or at least a bigger port on the base end, otherwise the flow is still passing thru a restriction at the cyl.


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## Kevin in Ohio (Jan 2, 2016)

Spot on info by muddstopper. Layout as mentioned before will be one of the biggest considerations you should have to avoid neckdowns and "hot spots".







Notice how hose 180's are used and long sweep 90's.

Interia splitters have their place and are quicker IF you don't get on stuck. They just don't work for my application. We cut 24 inch long and do a lot of big stuff. I don't split my wood to kindling size.






I see a lot of people talk about how inertias will split everything, then say they noodle the big ones. Is that included in the split time? I don't noodle.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

Kevin, I have to say, you have one of the best build, well thought out splitters I have seen on this site. Of course, I would change a few things to suit my operation better, but thats only because I like the wedge on beam better than wedge on cyl. And I like multi split wedges. These are all just personal preferences, not saying one way is better than the other. Just mentioning because those are some of the considerations one needs to thaink about when building their own splitter. It doesnt matter what Jimtom did designing his splitter, its building the splitter you will be using and the things that suit the operator that always trumps what someone else built.


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## Kevin in Ohio (Jan 2, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Kevin, I have to say, you have one of the best build, well thought out splitters I have seen on this site. Of course, I would change a few things to suit my operation better, but thats only because I like the wedge on beam better than wedge on cyl. And I like multi split wedges. These are all just personal preferences, not saying one way is better than the other. Just mentioning because those are some of the considerations one needs to thaink about when building their own splitter. It doesnt matter what Jimtom did designing his splitter, its building the splitter you will be using and the things that suit the operator that always trumps what someone else built.



EXACTLY! I have to have wedge on cylinder because of using the swing boom to lift and hold the wood. If I didn't do it that way the hanger would swing as the ram pushed it creating a potentially bad situation. Just too risky. I cut and split where the tree falls and back down the logs length as it saves me SO many chains and resharpens as opposed to dragging everything for staging. Clean logs make for longer lasting chains. Like you said, everyone has their own unique set of circumstances and how they want to do it. Builders job is to pick ideas that will work for them and incorporate them into their plan.

If I was a commercial operator with more people my splitter would be set up different. Just as if the size of splits were to be smaller and they were shorter.

Appreciate the kind words and I can't wait to see your full on beast come to life. You have 10 times the amount of stuff to figure out than I did!


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

I have to admit, I have had a lot of help figuring out my hydraulic system from a fellow member on this site. He doesnt post a lot, but if he tells you something about hydraulics, its best to listen to him. His name is Kevin too by the way. I'll let him give his screen name if he wants to be known.

I kind of had to put my monster back on hold. Had an unexpected major expense right before Christmas that put a real drain on the ole wallet. My well went dry, if you can believe it with all this rain. To top it off, all the drilling from fixing the well ran straight down in front of my shop door, then it started raining. Mud knee deep, I hated to even walk down to the shop. Finally dried up enough to scrape away the mud, but might take a while to build back up the ole wallet.


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## Kevin in Ohio (Jan 2, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I have to admit, I have had a lot of help figuring out my hydraulic system from a fellow member on this site. He doesnt post a lot, but if he tells you something about hydraulics, its best to listen to him. His name is Kevin too by the way. I'll let him give his screen name if he wants to be known.
> 
> I kind of had to put my monster back on hold. Had an unexpected major expense right before Christmas that put a real drain on the ole wallet. My well went dry, if you can believe it with all this rain. To top it off, all the drilling from fixing the well ran straight down in front of my shop door, then it started raining. Mud knee deep, I hated to even walk down to the shop. Finally dried up enough to scrape away the mud, but might take a while to build back up the ole wallet.



Life has a way of happening doesn't it.

James at Splitez helped me out and I had been kicking ideas in my head for years on what would work best for us. SO much nicer now.

This site is such a treasure trove of info and I try to give back as I have learned so much from others here. It's all about trying to save others from falling into the pitfalls that we did or were told to avoid before we did something that would be costly. Even scrap prices and scrounging makes this stuff hard to do on a budget anymore. I will repeat this. For the average guy, you can NOT build one cheaper than you can buy a new premade unit. If you have a special situation or most of the materials at your disposal, then yes, it can be done. Otherwise, don't go into this thinking you'll save a ton a money. You won't.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

I'll agree, building by scroungeing isnt as easy as it was just a few short years ago. Scrap metal is down to around a penny a lb. Folks just aint scraping out old equipment like they used to. Its still out there, you just have to be first in line to get it. Back when scrap metal was around 20cents a lb, anybody that had a big old piece of machinery in the back forty was scrambling to get it to the scrap yard. 

A lot of over thinking can go into building a splitter too. "I wants", sometimes outweigh the "I needs". I think just about everybody here "Wants" a splitter like the one you built, but how many folks actually "Needs" a splitter like that. A homeowner that doesnt have the same time restraints as someone splitting wood to sell, can get by really well with one of the store bought machines.The difference in a 9sec cycle time isnt really that big of a difference than a 12 sec cycle if you only splitting 4 or 5 cords a year, a little bit every day until its all split. For a commercial wood producer, that extra 3 sec of speed can equate to a lot of wood split if your splitting 10-20 cords a day every day.

I travel during the week for my job so I aint home every evening to do any wood gathering or processing. I usually harvest all my wood in one or two outings using trailers and hauling in log lenghts. I dump the logs beside the wood shed and buck when time permits. When I have it all bucked, I will call up the boys and have a splitting session. We might process 4 or 5 cords and stack in the shed in one day and I'm done till next year. Fast splitters take a lot of support to get maximum production. Working by ones self, I cant keep up with a 9sec or even a 12 sec cycle time machine, I would be plumb worn out in about an hour, or less, if I even tried. I dont even run my machine at full throttle most of the time. I like the fast cycle times when I have plenty of help, but help seems to be getting harder and harder to find these days.


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## GM_Grimmy (Jan 2, 2016)

I feel I have a fairly quick hydraulic splitter that Alex built for me. It was a collaboration of both our minds to get the right components, as I chose a 28 gpm 2 stage pump setup. I'm using a 30 gpm main cylinder valve but for the log lift and 4 way, I'm using a 25 gpm valve, as well I was having troubles finding a 30 gpm rated valve, but the tank design was efficient enough to rid of some of the heat, I also have a hydraulic cooler to keep things cool as well. This combination has proven to work well, as I can get some heat into the oil, but I can also keep the temperature down as well. I am running a dump valve, but it wasn't to speed things up, as it was so I wouldn't be overloading the main valve. I have about 64 gallons per minute on the return stroke from a 3.75" rod on my 5" bore, 24" stroke cylinder. I wanted the bigger rod as with my previous splitter that I returned, I was waiting for the ram to get out of the way before I could grab the next piece or set the next one down. While they hydraulics are quick, having the adjustable 4 way is where I make more pieces that are done and I'm grabbing the next piece. It'll speed up a little more once I get my 6 way....for when you get that right sized wood to push things through.

I think a lot of people don't realize the gpm that is coming from the main cylinder on the return stroke. It's usually higher than what your valve is rated for and you generate heat there. Which not all heat is bad. I don't like my oil going over 140, and my cooler does an excellent job making sure it doesn't.....even in 89 degree weather (when I first got it home, I had to test it out, it was 89 out that day).


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

I think 6ways are over rated most of the time. This coming from someone that added a 6way to current machine and is building a 12way for the next machine. My current splitter only has the one blade so its not like I can just swap out the 6way wedge for something else. Not to mention that 24intall wedge, which is really about 30in long total, is darn right heavy. For the right size wood, you cant beat a multiple split wedge, but not every round is the same size. I endup with a pile of pieces and splinters. I have considered reconfigureing the 6way and have even considered just cutting it off and going back to just a 4way. I split enough big wood that I hate to lose the 6way so I just leave it as is. I probably should just make another 4way wedge so I can swap them out, but I dont sell firewood and the machine gets the job done, but if I run across the right piece of metal, you never know. I do have plans to modify the current splitter once the processor is completed. 

My current splitter is a combination of junk yard parts, with a few changes made over the years. I started with a 4in cyl and a 14gpm vane pump with a used, but almost new 25hp holer engine. I had a regular wood splitter valve sitting on the shelf I had bought probably 20 years ago and had never used. To make the wedge adjustable I needed another valve, I salvaged a husco multi spool valve off a old ditchwith. This valve had PB so I could plumb to that valve first for the wedge and then on to the splitter valve. With the extra spools I decided i wanted a knuckle boom to handle the large round, so I salvaged the cyl's off a old McCormick long arm mower. I mounted the knuckle boom on the tongue end of the splitter. I used a 4x4 front hub to mount the boom with. It worked pretty good for handleing firewood rounds, but of coures I got greedy and was trying to handle full size logs. Broke knuckle boom off at the hub and said to heck with it. I then had a buddy give me an old mechanic crane. It was a small one, but it had a electric winch on it so I mounted it on the machine. I had to remake part of it, but it has been working pretty good every since, and it sure beats the heck out of hand lifting some of the big stuff. I ran across a deal on a new 5in cyl so swapped it in place of the 4in one. Major slow down in cycle times. To increase speed, I splurged on a new 28gpm 2stage pump. With the added power of the 5in cyl, I decided I wanted the 6way wedge. While my splitter is plenty fast and strong enough, it is a mixture of hodgepodge parts with no real thought into the actual design.Just a bunch of addons.along the way. My hyd tank is way to small for the pump, but okay because I get to take breaks to let the oil, as well as myself, cool down. My splitter needs a complete redesign and rebuild. Nothing really bad wrong with what I have, but it needs some fine tuning to improve its life span.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 2, 2016)

Something about 5 sec or quicker I'd call fast.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Something about 5 sec or quicker I'd call fast.


Is that the cycle time on your processor, or do you have a regular splitter with 5sec cycle times.

At work, we have some 4in cyl with 8ft strokes that can cycle 13times a minute. We also have some 6in x 24in stroke cyl that cycle so fast you cant put a watch on them. I wouldnt want either cyl on a hand fed wood splitter.


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## Oldman47 (Jan 2, 2016)

For fluid temperature control why not use an oil cooler or a transmission cooler made for automotive use. The low pressure on the return to the tank should not be enough to harm one of those.


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## GM_Grimmy (Jan 2, 2016)

Oldman47 said:


> For fluid temperature control why not use an oil cooler or a transmission cooler made for automotive use. The low pressure on the return to the tank should not be enough to harm one of those.


My cooler is made by AKG, and was specific for my application. It had a spot for the temperature controller and has a built in 25 psi bypass. I didn't want to cobble something to make it work when I can just get the right part and just have it work. I don't like getting parts and then figuring out how to make it work. That's just me. When you're buying new, it probably wasn't much of a cost difference.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 2, 2016)

Oldman47 said:


> For fluid temperature control why not use an oil cooler or a transmission cooler made for automotive use. The low pressure on the return to the tank should not be enough to harm one of those.



Too much flow, trans might be 5-8gpm.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

Oldman47 said:


> For fluid temperature control why not use an oil cooler or a transmission cooler made for automotive use. The low pressure on the return to the tank should not be enough to harm one of those.


Every transmission oil cooler I have ever seen had a small dia tube for connections. Might find one off a big truck that would work, but why bother. A proper oil cooler needs to be rated for about 250psi and have flow capacity large enough to handle the system flows. A transmission cooler probably wont have the flow capacity needed and because of the restriction placed on oil flow, would probably cause more heat than it gives off. It goes back to velocity and pressure. If the oil moves thru the cooler so fast it cant give off it heat, the cooler is just something else that can go wrong. If your going to go with a oil cooler instead of a properly sized hyd tank, better to figure on buying a cooler that will at least do what its supposed to do. I know of systems that use a seperate pump to pull oil from the tank just to run thru a cooler, that pump is usually low pressure and low volume which gives the smaller cooler time to exchange heat.


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## Homelite410 (Jan 2, 2016)

This baby moves.




others here have the numbers. This is not mine, its sweet tho.


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## GM_Grimmy (Jan 2, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Every transmission oil cooler I have ever seen had a small dia tube for connections. Might find one off a big truck that would work, but why bother. A proper oil cooler needs to be rated for about 250psi and have flow capacity large enough to handle the system flows. A transmission cooler probably wont have the flow capacity needed and because of the restriction placed on oil flow, would probably cause more heat than it gives off. It goes back to velocity and pressure. If the oil moves thru the cooler so fast it cant give off it heat, the cooler is just something else that can go wrong. If your going to go with a oil cooler instead of a properly sized hyd tank, better to figure on buying a cooler that will at least do what its supposed to do. I know of systems that use a seperate pump to pull oil from the tank just to run thru a cooler, that pump is usually low pressure and low volume which gives the smaller cooler time to exchange heat.


All coolers will restrict flow. That's how they work. If you don't slow down the fluid it won't have time to pull the heat out of it. I was in contact with an engineer from AKG and told them the flows that I was expecting so he could plug all that info in and give me the proper cooler for my application. Your return side should be low pressure, lower than 25 psi.......maybe a little more on cold start up, but normal operating temps you shouldn't have that much pressure on the return side. On my configuration, I have the dump valve bypass the cooler and dump right back to the tank. The oil that is returned through the valves goes through the cooler, so if it's just sitting there and you're not moving anything, all the oil goes through the cooler. My cooler isn't that big. The fan moves quite a bit of air, and can pull up to 17A so have to have a hefty recharge on the engine. I can't remember the exact numbers but talking with the engineer, that cooler was rated to drop the temp so many degrees if ambient temp was 100 out. I was impressed with it when I ran it in July, as it cycled a lot, but it did just that, cycled. So it dropped the temp of the oil low enough to shut off. I think there's an 8 degree hysteresis and initially it was set at 135, so it would shut off around 127. I thought about a separate pump to just cycle through the tank but that's a lot of extra plumbing, when you can just get the right parts that will handle the pressures and flow in the system.


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## GM_Grimmy (Jan 2, 2016)

Homelite410 said:


> This baby moves.
> 
> 
> 
> others here have the numbers. This is not mine, its sweet tho.


That is one sweet rod on that cylinder there!!! Bet that's a sweet machine!


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

Grimmy, I was talking extremes, trying to push a #12 amount of hydraulic oil thru a #6 transmission cooler.


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## Del_ (Jan 2, 2016)

The cost of an oil cooler should be weighed against the fact that a function of hyd tank size and shape is to give air a chance to rise out of the fluid so it doesn't cause pump destroying cavitation.


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## olympyk_999 (Jan 2, 2016)

Del_ said:


> function of hyd tank size and shape is to give air a chance to rise out of the fluid so it doesn't cause pump destroying cavitation.


a proper system shouldn't be aerating the oil...and only have a chance of sucking air through suction hose connections (shitty cheap clamps)


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## Del_ (Jan 2, 2016)

olympyk_999 said:


> a proper system shouldn't be aerating the oil...and only have a chance of sucking air through suction hose connections (shitty cheap clamps)



Air works it's way in at other places including inside the tank turbulence. 

A guideline I've read for stationary equipment is to have three times the tank volume as the pump value. That's not real practical for mobile equipment. Mine is 40 gallon with a 28gpm pump. Pump usually runs at 20gpm or below in use.


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## olympyk_999 (Jan 2, 2016)

Del_ said:


> Air works it's way in at other places including inside the tank turbulence


a proper tank shouldn't cause aeration...


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## Gugi47 (Jan 2, 2016)

To much speed is not good (overheating - to much condense in the reservoir) and can be *very dangerous* too. That why I can give any advice.


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## GM_Grimmy (Jan 2, 2016)

Del_ said:


> The cost of an oil cooler should be weighed against the fact that a function of hyd tank size and shape is to give air a chance to rise out of the fluid so it doesn't cause pump destroying cavitation.



It all depends on your setup. For most people, probably wouldn't need one. With the right tank setup, if you are running when it's colder weather, you wouldn't need one either. I discussed this a lot with my builder of my splitter and reason I still went with it was that I do split when it's 80 degrees out. I don't want my tank so hot you can't touch it. I want some heat in my system, but I'd rather be on the cool side to be easy on parts, seals, pump, etc. I've seen some coolers for under $400. When you spend big money for a commercial splitter, I say it should have a cooler on it. Most commercial splitters are $8k+ the cost of a cooler is peanuts.



Del_ said:


> Air works it's way in at other places including inside the tank turbulence.
> 
> A guideline I've read for stationary equipment is to have three times the tank volume as the pump value. That's not real practical for mobile equipment. Mine is 40 gallon with a 28gpm pump. Pump usually runs at 20gpm or below in use.



I've always been told on a log splitter, you want your tank resevoir to hold at least the same gallons as your pump (22 gpm pump, 22 gallons of oil in the system.)


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## olympyk_999 (Jan 2, 2016)

GM_Grimmy said:


> It all depends on your setup. For most people, probably wouldn't need one. With the right tank setup, if you are running when it's colder weather, you wouldn't need one either. I discussed this a lot with my builder of my splitter and reason I still went with it was that I do split when it's 80 degrees out. I don't want my tank so hot you can't touch it. I want some heat in my system, but I'd rather be on the cool side to be easy on parts, seals, pump, etc. I've seen some coolers for under $400. When you spend big money for a commercial splitter, I say it should have a cooler on it. Most commercial splitters are $8k+ the cost of a cooler is peanuts.


I have a 28 gpm pump on mine and a 30 gallon tank filled with 28 gallons of oil to leave a couple inches of head space...I run all 3/4" hoses except for the main pressure line from the pump to the first valve which is 1" and all 90's are sweeps, not hard 90's... hottest day I have split was around 95, and oil only got up to 120 or so after splitting for 5 hours... a proper system shouldn't aerate or over heat the oil...


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## zogger (Jan 2, 2016)

and if you want fast cycle, don't forget cool paint job with matching helmet, plus some chrome here and there..just sayin...


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## olympyk_999 (Jan 2, 2016)

zogger said:


> and if you want fast cycle, don't forget cool paint job with matching helmet, plus some chrome here and there..just sayin...


or make it look like some old rusty POS so you can tell people it don't work when they ask to borrow it


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

Heres the cooler I plan on using on my processor, it measures 19.6x16x2.5 inches. It has 1inch ports and I believe its rated for 80gpm flows. It already has the shroud for a hydraulic motor and fan, but I plan on using a automotive fan with a temp sensor to operate the fan.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 2, 2016)

Well my processer has about a 20 or 25 gal tank and the pumps put out almost 50 gals. Before I got a cooler put on it would get pretty hot, like burn your hand on the coneyor motor hot.

Blockbuster tried to tell me that was fine, but my Dad who has been in the hydraulic industry for several decades said no way! 160ish is about as hot as is ok.
With the cooler it gets to maybe 150* in the middle of summer. It's mounted in front of the radiator and is about 18"x18" or so.

I do need to put a couple solenoids and a temp switch for an auto bypass based on temp because it doesn't help any when I'm trying to get the oil warmed up in the winter.


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## muddstopper (Jan 2, 2016)

olympyk_999 said:


> a proper system shouldn't be aerating the oil...and only have a chance of sucking air through suction hose connections (shitty cheap clamps)


 Hate to disagree with you, but all oil contains a certain amount of dissolved air. This air can be released thru sudden pressure drops at valves, after any orfice or bottle neck restriction and even returning to tank. Noted, a property designed tank with baffles should give the air time to settle out of the oil before being reintroduced into the suction of the pump, but you dont have to have loose suction hoses to get air bubbles in your oil. Air in the oil is pretty common of small tanks, more so than on tanks with adequate storage capacities.


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## olympyk_999 (Jan 2, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Hate to disagree with you, but all oil contains a certain amount of dissolved air. This air can be released thru sudden pressure drops at valves, after any orfice or bottle neck restriction and even returning to tank. Noted, a property designed tank with baffles should give the air time to settle out of the oil before being reintroduced into the suction of the pump, but you dont have to have loose suction hoses to get air bubbles in your oil. Air in the oil is pretty common of small tanks, more so than on tanks with adequate storage capacities.


that's nowhere near the amount of air, as what would be introduced into the system from a leaky suction hose or a high turbulence in the tank, or a tank so small the suction creates a vortex sucking air directly into the pump...that's what I'm talking about!
the little amount of air you are talking about is going to be there weather it has a cooler on it or not...


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## Del_ (Jan 2, 2016)

olympyk_999 said:


> the little amount of air you are talking about is going to be there weather it has a cooler on it or not...



Yes but my point was a larger tank provides extra cooling and less entrapped air both.

A larger well designed tank gives minute air bubbles more time to rise to the surface.

Coolers work well and are needed in a lot of applications. My Bobcat 7753 for instance has a large oil cooling system.

Hydraulics 101.


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## muddstopper (Jan 3, 2016)

I agreed with both of you, and made note of it. Just pointed out that suction leaks are not the only place you can get air in your oil.



muddstopper said:


> Noted, a property designed tank with baffles should give the air time to settle out of the oil before being reintroduced into the suction of the pump. Air in the oil is pretty common of small tanks, more so than on tanks with adequate storage capacities.


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## cantoo (Jan 3, 2016)

I have a 15 gal pump on my 36" splitter with homemade 30 US gal oil tank on it, only have 15 gallons of oil in it right now. I was splitting 20x 32" long" ash last week with it, temp was about 21 F out with strong winds. Hydraulic oil is AW32. I have rounds set up pretty good so cylinder was moving pretty often and steady. After 2 hours of splitting the oil tank was barely warm to the touch. I was concerned that it wouldn't be heating the oil up enough so I only put 15 gallons in the tank thinking it would recirculate faster and get hotter. At startup the cylinder moves very very slow and took at least 10 minutes to get regular. I usually don't split a lot when it's cold out but 21F sure isn't that cold. I'm thinking of putting rigid foam insulation around the oil tank because it would be fairly easy. I have a engine preheater and might throw it on just to get the oil warmed up quicker. Pump squeals more than I would like. When I was making the tank I considered making it a 2 section but changed my mind. That's the trouble when building your own stuff, too many changes during the process. Using my old Speeco by myself I could get the cylinder so hot you couldn't even hold your hand on it.


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## muddstopper (Jan 3, 2016)

I havent decided just how I want to make my hyd tank yet. figured i would get around to it after everything else is put together so I can get the ports in the right place for easy hookups. I will be using one of those sq diesel fuel tanks you see in the back of pickup trucks. Not the L shaped ones. It is supposed to hold 100gal, I plan on cutting the top off and using that metal to make the baffles. I will replace the top with something a little thicker, a bolt on top so I can get inside if I have to. Not sure of the guage metal used to build the diesel tank, doesnt seem very thick, but once the baffles are welded inside it should stiffen up.


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## cantoo (Jan 3, 2016)

I built my own using 1/8" steel. I was gonna buy one but wanted it to fit the space on my trailer so I just built it. I wish I had put a few more bungs in it but I will just empty it and weld a few more in. There are lots of hydraulic tanks available for cheap prices at wrecking yards. Lots of municipal equipment use big hydraulic tanks and have coolers, hoses and valves on them already. I just couldn't find one quick enough when I was building.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 3, 2016)

cantoo said:


> I have a 15 gal pump on my 36" splitter with homemade 30 US gal oil tank on it, only have 15 gallons of oil in it right now. I was splitting 20x 32" long" ash last week with it, temp was about 21 F out with strong winds. Hydraulic oil is AW32. I have rounds set up pretty good so cylinder was moving pretty often and steady. After 2 hours of splitting the oil tank was barely warm to the touch. I was concerned that it wouldn't be heating the oil up enough so I only put 15 gallons in the tank thinking it would recirculate faster and get hotter. At startup the cylinder moves very very slow and took at least 10 minutes to get regular. I usually don't split a lot when it's cold out but 21F sure isn't that cold. I'm thinking of putting rigid foam insulation around the oil tank because it would be fairly easy. I have a engine preheater and might throw it on just to get the oil warmed up quicker. Pump squeals more than I would like. When I was making the tank I considered making it a 2 section but changed my mind. That's the trouble when building your own stuff, too many changes during the process. Using my old Speeco by myself I could get the cylinder so hot you couldn't even hold your hand on it.



A tank heater will help. I was a 1000w pad on the bottom of mine.


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## firmwood (Jan 16, 2016)

I didn't want to spend big money on a pump, which would probably force me to replumb, so I cheated. 

I made a new ram for my 4" bore. Used the same piston, just made a new end cap from some heavy plate, cut a groove for an oring, a really tight one, then a 2nd groove for another looser one for a wiper. 

4" bore with a 3.75" ram. 

She sucks back like a rocket! 

If the oil is thin enough the pump stays in the high gpm stage and that Little Briggs goes putt putt putt and all 36" returned in about 2 seconds. 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## Fourced (Jan 16, 2016)

firmwood said:


> I didn't want to spend big money on a pump, which would probably force me to replumb, so I cheated.
> 
> I made a new ram for my 4" bore. Used the same piston, just made a new end cap from some heavy plate, cut a groove for an oring, a really tight one, then a 2nd groove for another looser one for a wiper.
> 
> ...


*cough* pics


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

Oh no. Not the picture thing again! 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## Fourced (Jan 17, 2016)

firmwood said:


> Oh no. Not the picture thing again!



You post you made a new ram for your cylinder and think I don't want to see it???? You totally left me hanging, I have been up hitting refresh all night waiting to see this.....


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

Oh. Sorry dude. You and probably countless others! 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

If I get out to my parents next holiday I'll take a picture. 

It's ridiculous. 16gpm it's got a total ~9sec cycle time, impressive for a 36" stroke. It's so fast I don't see using a valve with auto return. Almost pointless expense with this setup. 

For setups that strictly push, it's the answer. 

Maybe I should make more and sell them for log splitters? The most time consuming is Making the end cap. I did it on a worn out lathe too. For the threaded stubb on the end of the ram for the piston, I just welded some smaller than round stock, turned so it's true on center, then cut some threads. Enough to hold the piston on. Good enough for pushing. 

I should of gotten fancy and lathed so I could use a spring loaded wiper, but I don't care. Just a tie rod cylinder, easy to take apart and put orings in once every few years. 

The ram I was lucky on the size, and took a fuzz off for polishing. 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## muddstopper (Jan 17, 2016)

all I can think is Wow, I want a picture too. With such a large shaft, you must have a pretty large hose connection on the base end of the cyl. for oil to flow back thru.


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

That was the only downside. I upped to 1". It's still restrictive. But what little heat it makes for such short time, it's manageable. 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## TRTermite (Jan 17, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Iron and oak is advertising different numbers for the fast cycle 20ton than you are writing. According to there ad's the fast 20 has a 4.5x2x24 cylinder and not the 4x1.75x24in cyl you suggested. To get 20tons they probably have the pressure set at around 2500psi. Also the 8sec cycltime advertised should be about 11.2sec, give or take a few billion years. Anyways, if you copy their design and use the 4in cyl with smaller rod dia, you would have the approx 8 sec cycle time (closer to 9 sec) you are trying to match. Going to a cyl with a 2in rod will only speed up the cycle time by .2 sec, not worth the effort or extra cost of the bigger rod. To keep heat down to a minimum without a lot of extra expense, I would look for the cyl with the 3/4 ports as well as try to find a splitter control valve rated for 25gpm. the bigger ports in the cyl and valve will reduce the velocity of the oil flowing back to the tank on return stroke, which in turn will reduce heat. I would also try to build or find a hydraulic tank in the 15gpm range. Set hyd pressure to around 3000psi which would give you about 19tons of splitting force. You will need a 8hp min engine to pull the pump. To increase splitting speed, I suggest using a 4way wedge, you can make it removable or height adjustable for those few times you run into a round you cant split. I can say for certain the 4in cyl with a 4 way wedge is going to hard to stall. If you need cycle time faster than 8 sec, you can always go with the 22gpm twostage pump and a little bigger engine, but if you can keep a 8sec cycle time fed wood, your a better man than most of us.



Excactly What MudStopper said but Try to keep your line runs as short as reasonably possible to minimize heat .. 
Keep *SAFETEY* First 
Look and analyze the splitter head or knife for angles and how it works for your kind of wood How well it reacts to your kind of wood and other personal criteria. 
Speed will be proportionate to efficiently feeding and clearing your splitter. 
When I was sawyer at my mill and had a new offbearer/edgermen (years ago) I would tell the new guy to watch My Dad for a while (Unbeknownst to Dad) He was a BIG guy and the point was he did not waste any unnecessary efforts one step not two, Fluid movements etc. Again MUDSTOPPER said the most the best..


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## TRTermite (Jan 17, 2016)

Del_ said:


> The cost of an oil cooler should be weighed against the fact that a function of hyd tank size and shape is to give air a chance to rise out of the fluid so it doesn't cause pump destroying cavitation.


GREAT POINT air is a NASTY


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## TRTermite (Jan 17, 2016)

zogger said:


> and if you want fast cycle, don't forget cool paint job with matching helmet, plus some chrome here and there..just sayin...


And PINSTRIPING and An ICEE Two Tone Blue Flame job to go with the cooler.
Enough for the derail
Sorry couldn't resist..


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## TRTermite (Jan 17, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> I agreed with both of you, and made note of it. Just pointed out that suction leaks are not the only place you can get air in your oil.


Larger volume oil tank and extra OIL would be* economical* but bulky and troublesome in portable applications.


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

Economical? I used a partial roll of 3/4" copper hvac tubing. That's my return from filter to tank. Left in coil shape, color, shaped fancy, and effective! 

3 birds one stone! 


Extra oil is not economical. Not this day and age. The price of 40gal atf vs a new 16gal cheap 2stage. It was cheaper to run a wix 51551, used motor oil, a big magnet on the bottom of the tank, and take the chance ruining a pump vs buying new fluid. 

5 years, 50cord later, still pegs 3000psi without issue, on drain oil. 

I was impressive with a vickers vane, now I'm even more impressed on drain oil with a gear setup. 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## TRTermite (Jan 17, 2016)

I really enjoyed this post Sorry for the earlier derail 
There are so many concepts to sort out for each application.. 
Five years ago I built a processor for a guy and used a 7"x48" cylinder scrounged from a basket truck. 
There won't be any Pictures as I caught him Stealing after the splitter was built.. we do not get along for some reason.
So many things everyone has touched on will help the next project immensely.
I had adjustable linkage to trip return short of full return. Had a heck of a Time getting knife angles right .Through the last few years I have mentally changed what I wish I would have done but OH WELL 
*a BIG THANKS*


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## sawfun (Jan 17, 2016)

How about using a single stage pump with a 4 cyinder car engine? Plenty of them cheap, cheaper than Honda engines I should think. Single stage pumps are cheap and some, rebuildable. I have an old single stage setup with a 1600cc pinto engine. Only 6 gallons of oil and it never gets hot with 9 second times with a 5" × 24" ram and 2 & 1/2" rod. The fuel consumption is low as I run mostly at 500 - 600 rpm vs 3000 rpm for a 400cc unit. No secondary stage slowdown, no oil cooler needed and no bypasses. Why are people so reluctant to go with more power and single stage pumps?


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

Oh I agree. Take you're setup, and use a ignition controlled cruise control unit. As you gag it out, she'll pull more throttle. 

Everyone jumps on the 2 stage little Briggs because of up font cost and fab. 

My next setup is a 1.3 fuel injected with cruise control throttle control. Obd2 too! 

Last I I had it running on the garage floor with the complete wiring harness I had no check engine light. 


Split green, with green emissions, both out of the stove and the equipment! How much green could you get! 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 17, 2016)

A 55 gal drum of AW32 runs about $250.



firmwood said:


> Economical? I used a partial roll of 3/4" copper hvac tubing. That's my return from filter to tank. Left in coil shape, color, shaped fancy, and effective!
> 
> 3 birds one stone!
> 
> ...


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 17, 2016)

sawfun said:


> How about using a single stage pump with a 4 cyinder car engine? Plenty of them cheap, cheaper than Honda engines I should think. Single stage pumps are cheap and some, rebuildable. I have an old single stage setup with a 1600cc pinto engine. Only 6 gallons of oil and it never gets hot with 9 second times with a 5" × 24" ram and 2 & 1/2" rod. The fuel consumption is low as I run mostly at 500 - 600 rpm vs 3000 rpm for a 400cc unit. No secondary stage slowdown, no oil cooler needed and no bypasses. Why are people so reluctant to go with more power and single stage pumps?



You have a 9 sec cycle with the pump at 500rpm or do you have a gearbox so the pump is spinning quicker?


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## Del_ (Jan 17, 2016)

Would using an engine much larger than needed to do the job result in higher fuel usage?

Would running a gasoline automobile engine at 5-600 rpm long term create engine damaging conditions?

It seems that using two speed pumps is as logical as using transmissions in automobiles.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 17, 2016)

Well 500-600rpm is under normal idle for most engines, so I'd expect it would cause some cylinder washing and or lugging if was put under some load. Would be best to at least run it in the 1000-1500ish area.

Not to mention if coupled to a pump you'd need to use a specialized low RPM pump or a gear box or some kind to step up the revs. Or a really high flow pump so at idle it still can flow 20-30gpm.



Del_ said:


> Would using an engine much larger than needed to do the job result in higher fuel usage?
> 
> Would running a gasoline automobile engine at 5-600 rpm long term create engine damaging conditions?
> 
> It seems that using two speed pumps is as logical as using transmissions in automobiles.


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## firmwood (Jan 17, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> A 55 gal drum of AW32 runs about $250.


Still more then my pump. I bought a cheapo. 

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## sawfun (Jan 17, 2016)

I have no idea on pump size as it was on it when I got it and any numbers are on the mounted side so not accesible unless removed but that splitter works fine at idle. And 500 - 600 rpm is a fine idle for those older engines. And no, no cylinder washing either. A very big tough knotted piece (24" round with 6" knot) will need maybe 1200 - 1500 rpm which decreases cycle time to around 7 seconds.


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## muddstopper (Jan 21, 2016)

Because of the cost of a factory built splitter being cheaper than buying all the parts and building your own, I would think most folks that do build their own do so with parts on hand or easily scrounged. My current splitter is all build from parts I had or scrounged, but I did buy some new parts when I went to making improvements. I actually started with a Vickers vane pump I picked up out of the mud at a scrap yard, gave $2 for it. I had a 25hp Kholer engine I took off a piece of equipment I was no longer using. Picking up scrap metal for free or almost free, I was able to put together a pretty decent wood splitter. I plumbed it with used hoses and fittings. That 25hp kholer engine was almost $2000 new, no way I would have bought that motor new just to build a wood splitter with. I think most people pretty much copy something someone else has put together and most folks will use a small gas engine and a two stage pump. Auto engines usually require radiators and some fancy cobbeling to hook a pump to, are large and heavy, and probably way overkill just to split wood with. Who am I to talk, I am planning on a 7.3 or B6 cummins diesel for my current build and just hoping I have the hp I need.


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## Kevin in Ohio (Jan 22, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Because of the cost of a factory built splitter being cheaper than buying all the parts and building your own, I would think most folks that do build their own do so with parts on hand or easily scrounged. My current splitter is all build from parts I had or scrounged, but I did buy some new parts when I went to making improvements. I actually started with a Vickers vane pump I picked up out of the mud at a scrap yard, gave $2 for it. I had a 25hp Kholer engine I took off a piece of equipment I was no longer using. Picking up scrap metal for free or almost free, I was able to put together a pretty decent wood splitter. I plumbed it with used hoses and fittings. That 25hp kholer engine was almost $2000 new, no way I would have bought that motor new just to build a wood splitter with. I think most people pretty much copy something someone else has put together and most folks will use a small gas engine and a two stage pump. Auto engines usually require radiators and some fancy cobbeling to hook a pump to, are large and heavy, and probably way overkill just to split wood with. Who am I to talk, I am planning on a 7.3 or B6 cummins diesel for my current build and just hoping I have the hp I need.




Some of us build because no one offers what we have in our head to suit ones situation. Plus it's fun to do it.


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## muddstopper (Jan 22, 2016)

Kevin, your an exception no doubt. I'm just plain crazy


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## Kevin in Ohio (Jan 22, 2016)

muddstopper said:


> Kevin, your an exception no doubt. I'm just plain crazy



I totally agree with you that even if you have some of the components, it's cheaper to buy it all done new. They must get crazy discounts when buying in bulk on components. You're crazy and I'm nuts, see you at the asylum!


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## firmwood (Jan 22, 2016)

I agree. 

Little 2" bore , 1" ram 12" stroke to crush cans. Thsi is the most dangerous one. I need to get a flow restricter. This one shoots out like a rocket too. 

4" with fat ram return for general wood splitting. 

6" with 5.5" ram to squeeze rims. Enough stroke to crumple semi rims. I wanted the iron when prices were good. And Less work then spooning off the rubber. I'll be honest, 40 squashed semi rims blows the ass out of a ton truck. Only fills the bed 3/4 full too. Haha. They look like short fat bacon strips. 

A long stroke 5" with a 1" ram, 8ft long, for pulling steel beads out of tires. 


All with snap couplers on the spools, so one gas sipper to run them all. 


Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!


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## Haywire Haywood (Jan 22, 2016)

When I built mine, I had a 4x24 cylinder, an 18hp engine, a 28gpm 2 stage pump, and 3/4" hoses. It was a speed demon, but the tank wasn't thought out very well and only held about 15 gallons. I had a sheet ton of turbulence in the tank to the point that if I put a vented tank cap on it, it would spew oil. Heat buildup was an issue too. If I were to do it again, I would double the tank size and put baffles in to smooth the turbulence inside the tank. I used to have visions of a small diesel running a single stage pump but then I laid (layed?) the crack pipe down and came back to reality.


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