# I want to transfer wood stove heat to lower level of the house.



## loknlod (Aug 14, 2008)

I am looking for some ideas on how to transfer heat from the main level of my house to the lower level. I am sure someone around this forum has a good idea of how to do it. I have a split level home, the wood stove is on the main level. The lower level of the house is still heated with fuel/baseboard heat. I don't need to heat the whole house with the wood stove (although it would be nice) but there is a crawlspace under the main level that gets very cold in the winter. I would like to pump some warm air 10 to 12 feet down from the stove area into that crawlspace. I would like to find a fan/blower that would take 120 volt and move a decent amount of air. The interior wall of the house where the stove sits is directly above the crawlspace, so I just need to install a vent up above the stove in that wall (where the hot air is) and push the warm air down through the wall between 2 of the studs and it will get to the crawlspace. There is no sheetrock in the crawlspace also. Can anyone give me a link to some products to check out? Any personal experience? Should I install some type of ducting to make sure it is more efficient? Electricity is expensive so I would like a good efficient fan/blower for this. Any input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 14, 2008)

Welcome to AS !

You could use natural convection to do this for you. 

In the lower portion of the house install a 3" X 12" vent about floor level in a wall leading to the crawl space. Then install a single walled vent pipe behind the wood stove that goes through the floor and parralell to the hot flue pipe. The heat from the flue pipe will create convection draft through the single wall pipe pulling cold air from the lower level into the crawlspace. The "cold" air will probably be warmer then what was in there to start with. The father the pipe extends down the colder the air it will be drawing out of down there. The taller the pipe is and the more the pipe gets heated by the stove the more air it will draw. It doesnt require electricity and costs only the price of the materials once. Instead of costing you money every month of every year it is used. It is quiet too. 

I was surprised how much air gets moved through a 4" pipe just being warmed by the radiant heat given off 3"-4" from my flue pipe of my stove. I noticed a long time ago that the stove didnt quite get the air warm from the bottom of the stove down. I imagined several covers for the stove that would pull air from the floor up around the stove but didnt like how it limited the functionality of the stove. 

It was almost by accident that it happened. I had a couple of extra sections and stood them up behind the stove in the corner with an elbow on the bottom. The elbow let it draw air since it wasnt capped off against the floor. In the next few days I noticed the house seemed warmer even though the thermostat still read in the low 70's. I was cleaning it out and spilled a bit of ash. The dust headed straight for the back of the stove which seemed unuasual ATM. I looked under there and sure enough the extra vent pipe was where it was headed for. There was enough of a draft through it that you could easily feel the air moving in front of it. 

My next thought was if 4 feet of VP is good , double it ! and get it closer. Made enough of a difference here that the bedrooms stay noticeably warmer and the floors dont have 6"-8" of cold air in the next room from the stove. 

I'm sure there will be plenty of ideas out there. Some of them you might even like .

if the studs are open into the basement through the wall just put a small vent at the top of the wall to pull the warm air from the top of the void between the studs


----------



## loknlod (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok, you have got my attention! This sounds very interesting but since I am unfamiliar with how this works, I'll dummy it down to my level and try to take this 1 step at a time. The cold crawl space is directly under the wood stove so you are saying I would run basically another "stovepipe" right beside the hot one from the stove? This pipe would continue down through the floor into the cold crawl space near the ground where the air is coldest? Then the cold air would want to naturally want to move to the top of the pipe where it is hot, creating the heat transfer? I'll worry about vents and whatever after I get this straight. Thanks for your info, I am really trying to picture how great it would be if this worked without using electricity.


----------



## mga (Aug 14, 2008)

cold air is heavier than warm air. physics 101.

there is no way hot air will travel downwards by itself. it needs another source to force it down wards. ie: a fan.


----------



## mtfallsmikey (Aug 14, 2008)

*And...*

When you supply air to a space, you need to return it...crawlspace=possible Radon?...better off insulating first, foam board around the perimeter walls, 'glass in the joist bays.


----------



## Rookie1 (Aug 14, 2008)

Im interested too. I know heat rises and all that but would like to see that convection setup in action.opcorn:


----------



## urhstry (Aug 14, 2008)

I agree with KSWoodsman's concept. The air itself doesn't need to be pushed or pulled because the draft is doing it already. Removing that cold air will pull the warmer air around the home into the void and warm up that area. My uncle tried to explain this concept to me for my home and I didn't get it, nor did I agree, but we put something together and it worked. Go figure.


----------



## loknlod (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok, I know I want to spray the walls of the crawl space with insulation in the future but I don't think it is going to happen this year. I don't need to heat that area to 70 degrees but we get air temps -30 to -50 degrees for a month at a time. With no heat in that area, I am concerned about pipes freezing. Before I installed the wood stove, all of the baseboard water lines ran through the crawl space which heated it enough to keep it warm. Now the wood stove heats that area of the house so no warm water circulates through the crawl space. I have plenty of wood for the winter and the crawl space isn't that big, the wood stove will take the chill out of there no problem if I can just get the heat down there. I may even be able to keep the floors warmer in the process. Thanks for your help.


----------



## Jkebxjunke (Aug 14, 2008)

how about this... a piece of round duct with a duct fan in it.. have it up near the ceiling and run the pipe through the floor and have a duct fan in it that blows heated air into the crawlspace. since you are going to insulate that in the future... I don't think I would worry about some electric vs the cost of frozen pipe repair. just my 2 cents
and here's a thought.. how about getting some pipe insulation and insulating the pipes?


----------



## Basica Guru (Aug 14, 2008)

If you only looking to keep the water lines from freezing, I would just use heat tape and pipe insulation. It does not use much electricity, I would think it would be comparable to a duct fan. You will not have the benefit of a warm floor, but will accomplish your goal.


----------



## Scootermsp (Aug 14, 2008)

*Check your codes!!!*

Beware of building codes which might prohibit such an opening between levels as this can permit fire to enter walls and travel from lower to upper level. Make sure you check with your building inspector because if it is prohibited and you have a fire in that area insurance will not pay! Good luck I'm sure someone will have a good solution, there are some brilliant people here!


----------



## Khtsr44 (Aug 15, 2008)

*Electrical prices*

He probably wants to use as little electric as possable.
It is around 20 cents a KWH around here.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 15, 2008)

The idea I had in mind is to use the crawlspace as a "cold air well" of sorts. Realizing that the temps he experiences are going to be much more extreme then I see here in Kansas the idea was to keep the air from falling below freezing in the crawlspace, where his water pipes might be located.

The lower level will naturally be a place for cold air to settle and be harder to heat with the wood stove upstairs, since this area is 2 to 6 feet lower then the heat source. Instead of trying to push air down there which will only rise back up stairs. Why not draw the cold air out of that living space into another area by ducting it back to the heat source using narural convection. If the cold air return line for the wood stove was in the lower level instead of right around the stove itself the return line would be drawing the air out of the lower portion of his home. 

MGA you are absolutely correct cold air is heavier. Warm air does rise. No arguements
Cooler air settles to the floor, warm air rises to the ceiling. That's why insulation in the cieilings and attic are important. It helps retain the heat from the ascending warm air at the ceiling and is warming the unused attic space.

Warm air rises, by heating air in the tube it will rise. Drawing in denser air from the crawlspace. The air from the crawl space has to be replaced from somewhere. Cant argue that one either. The 3 X 12 opening near the floor of the lower level that adjoins the crawlspace provides this replacement air. The cool air from the floor of the upper level will settle into the lower level. We cant stop that from happening. We _can_ draw that cold air out of that area moving it back to the warmest part of the house and heating it before it re-enters the living space. This natural convection will keep the coldest part of the air moved out of the lower portion and back into the heating system , the area near the wood stove.

By putting the vent pipe closer to the floor of the crawl space you are pulling the coldest part of the air out of that area. The air above the opening will be about the same temp as the air pulled from the floor of the lower level. This should be warm enough to keep his pipes from freezing. That is, if he is able to heat the upper level to a comfortable temperature.

There is no replacement for insulation, no arguements there of any sort. Insulating the exterior crawlspace walls so this heat doesnt escape into the frozen ground would help tremendiously. No arguements there. What I offered was a suggextion that didnt relly on electricity to achieve getting warmer air to the crawlspace and would effectively warm the lower level with the heat from his wood stove upstairs. It wouldn't be directly heated by the wood stove. The air that moved to the lower level would have someplece to go instead of just settling. It would then be replaced by warmer and warmer air as the cold air was drawn out of the area.

Will it be enough that he won't have to use any additional heat for that area ? I don't know. 
If his wood heater is capable of heating that much area he wont have to use as much additioal heat for the lower area.

When you are relying on electricity to keep your pipes from freezing and the power fails what happens then ? The pipes freeze.

* Fire Concerns*
If fire traveling through the opening between levels is a concern, then duct the entire cold air return from the lower level leading to behind the wood stove. It wont warm the cold crawlspace as well as replacing the cold air there replaced with warmer air. It seems, with a fire _down stairs_ that the smoke/fire would be more likely to travel towards the ceiling, leadeing to the stairway, instead of an opening on the floor. 

If fire was such an issue why do we build from brnable resources.


----------



## Mike Van (Aug 15, 2008)

I can't see this plan working at all, I don't believe you'll get warm air to flow down without a fan or duct booster. The stove will draw all the air it needs from infiltration, either from the room it's in or the crawl space - But, you won't get the warm air to 'flow down' to replace the cold, more cold will infiltrate to replace whats being drawn. Warm air in any useable ammount just will not flow down, it needs to be forced.


----------



## Crofter (Aug 15, 2008)

Unless the crawl space is absoulutely sealed against outside air, that is what will be pulled into the crawl space! not the warmed air from the main floor that is expected to to flow down (reverse) into an area of heavier air. In effect you will be creating a vacuum and the coldest air available and at the lowest elevation has the most potential to flow into the crawlspace. Makeup air for combustion has to come from someplace. It comes into your house on the pressure differential between the top of your chimney and the coldest most available air. This pressure differential will be much higher than what you will get from your proposed convection system. 
Really I think what you will need to do is pressurise the crawlspace with a fan to keep cold air from collecting there. Then make outside air available directly at your stove instead of having it pulled in at the most harmfull of places.(crawlspace)


----------



## ASEMASTER (Aug 15, 2008)

*cold air pushes hot*

but a duct fan in the crawl space and have it exit into the room next to the stove this will blow up to the stove and return some of the air back DOWN the staires and back to the fan . I have run this system for the last 5 years and it makes a 10 * difference in the downstairs air temp. garonteed!


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 16, 2008)

Mike Van said:


> I can't see this plan working at all, I don't believe you'll get warm air to flow down without a fan or duct booster. The stove will draw all the air it needs from infiltration, either from the room it's in or the crawl space - But, you won't get the warm air to 'flow down' to replace the cold, more cold will infiltrate to replace whats being drawn. Warm air in any useable ammount just will not flow down, it needs to be forced.



Nope I dont think natural convection will work trying to get it to go down either. I want it to go up. I wanted it to draw the cold air from the downstairs portion of his house. If the cold air isn't allowed to just settle down there but has some place to go ( back to the stove) it will feel warmer down there because the cold air isnt stacking up down there or in the stairway.
I coverd the problem of air infiltration from outside when I mentioned the 3 X 12 register in the wall downstairs next to the floor . 



Crofter said:


> Unless the crawl space is absoulutely sealed against outside air, that is what will be pulled into the crawl space! not the warmed air from the main floor that is expected to to flow down (reverse) into an area of heavier air. In effect you will be creating a vacuum and the coldest air available and at the lowest elevation has the most potential to flow into the crawlspace. Makeup air for combustion has to come from someplace. It comes into your house on the pressure differential between the top of your chimney and the coldest most available air. This pressure differential will be much higher than what you will get from your proposed convection system.
> Really I think what you will need to do is pressurise the crawlspace with a fan to keep cold air from collecting there. Then make outside air available directly at your stove instead of having it pulled in at the most harmfull of places.(crawlspace)



Nope warm air isnt going to go _down_ through the vent pipe into the crawlspace on it's own. That's not even how I thought I had explained it. Warm air is going to draw the cold air up and out of the crawl space. The crawl space needs to have a 3" X 12" register type vent from the room downstairs to the crawl space. 

Basic premise: As the air in the pipe, behind the stove, gets heated it will rise ( the air will rise, not the pipe ) . This rising air will draw cold air from the crawl space and be replenished by the cold air next to the floor of the lower level from through the register/vent/return installed. 

Simple convection applied to a larger area than a single room. We arent talking about pulling combustion air from the crawlspace. I was talking about recurculating air through his house to more effectively warm the lower level by putting in a cold air return to his wood stove's heating area. Not to the combustion chamber.

He needs a cold air return from the lower level returning air to the wood stove. He wants to warm the crawl space to keep pipes from freezing. If I was doing it I wouldnt want to hear a fan or worry about the electricity going out. I would put it in just as I described as a cold air return from the lower level of his splitlevel home to behind the woodstove.

If you thought I meant for the vent pipe to barely penetrate above the floor behind the stove think again. I mentioned that it needs to stick up and run parralell to the flue pipe to be heated by it. The higher and closer the better. The heat in the flue pipe is considered wasted heat once it exits the living area. I'm not trying to recover all the heat from it and introduce a creosote problem. Just recover enough of it to create a draft to pull cold air from a lower level than the bottom of the stove.

If you want a fan to push air down there put one in or set it ar the top of the stair and try pushing it down there. Let me know how that works for you. I have an aversion to the noise, was why I thought of using natural convection to draw cold air out of his downstairs, warm it behind his stove and keep doing it without electricity.

I'm sorry if I am not able to explain it well enough that it has become a question of if warm air rises or falls. We all agree it rises. What is so hard to understand that it will rise up the 6 - 8 foot vent pipe behind the stove and pull cold air from the crawl space? The air that is being drawn from the crawlspace gets replenished through the 3 x 12 register vent in the wall of the room that adjoins the crawl space. As this cold air from down stairs gets pulled out of that room it gets replenished by warmer air from the upper level where the wood stove is located. The wood stove is heating the air in the room and the air that is rising up the vent pipe. This rising air is drawing more air from the crawl space. Which starts the cycle over again. As the air in the crawl space gets warmer, the heated vent pipe will draw it from down below easier.

Warm air rises, cold air falls. Make the rising air work for you. Have it pull up cold air that settles downstairs.

Here goes nothing. I will try explaining this in reverse. After that , I am done, If you dont think the warm air will rise then put a fan in there and force it against its will to the cold room down stairs. 

You heat air from the wood stove it travels through the house and cools. As it cools it settles in the lowest part of the house. Which is down stairs from the wood stove. By puttin in a register at the bottom of the wall down stairs, The wall that adjoins the crawlspace, and a hole just behind the wood stove we now have a path for the air to travel. We just dont have any force to move it. Put some vent pipe in the hole. Heat the top of the vent pipe with the wood stove or hot flue pipe and the warm air in the pipe will start to rise. As the air that rises comes out of the pipe it cools and goes through the house and back down stairs where it is drawn into the register and into the vent pipe again. It does this untill stove isnt making enough heat to create a sufficient draft in the vent pipe to continue moving air.

The down stairs will be warmer because we are moving the cold air out from there back to the heated area of the woodstove. The crawlspace will be warmed keeping his pipes from freezing. It might not be warmed to 75 degrees but it isnt a living area and as long as the pipes don't freeze , it is warm enough.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 16, 2008)

Your post wasnt there when I started my reply



ASEMASTER said:


> but a duct fan in the crawl space and have it exit into the room next to the stove this will blow up to the stove and return some of the air back DOWN the staires and back to the fan . I have run this system for the last 5 years and it makes a 10 * difference in the downstairs air temp. garonteed!



+1 

My idea was to use natural convection. To do for free what you have the fan doing. I didn't want to force heat down, but to draw out cooler air. Just like you said without the fan.


----------



## logbutcher (Aug 16, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> *Insulation is the best answer!
> 
> If at all possible don't waste fuel by heating non living areas*.



Nailed it TC .  
Why waste heat where you don't need it ?


----------



## loknlod (Aug 16, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> Nailed it TC .
> Why waste heat where you don't need it ?



It will not be a waste of heat if I am also keeping the floors warmer. I wouldn't mind warmer floors when it is -30 to -50 degrees outside. If I was going to waste any heat it would definetly be the wood heat since it is way cheaper than fuel or electricity. Insulation alone is not going to take care of this problem, that is why I am looking for something more.


----------



## loknlod (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for the advice. KsWoodsMan, I am going to have to try your idea and see how it works! It will be a learning experience if nothing else! What a great site to be a part of.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 17, 2008)

Don't forget to post back with pictures and let us know how it turns out for you. I think you get the idea I was trying to get across. About using convection to pull the colder air out , replacing it with warmer air, instead of trying to force warm air in there.



Aaron


----------



## loknlod (Aug 17, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> Don't forget to post back with pictures and let us know how it turns out for you. I think you get the idea I was trying to get across. About using convection to pull the colder air out , replacing it with warmer air, instead of trying to force warm air in there.
> 
> 
> 
> Aaron



Yep, cool weather is quickly approaching so I need to get started soon. I understand your explanation very well now, I just had to run it through my mind for a while and let it sink in.


----------



## logbutcher (Aug 17, 2008)

*Insulate the Hell Out of It*



loknlod said:


> It will not be a waste of heat if I am also keeping the floors warmer. I wouldn't mind warmer floors when it is -30 to -50 degrees outside. If I was going to waste any heat it would definetly be the wood heat since it is way cheaper than fuel or electricity. *Insulation alone is not going to take care of this problem,* that is why I am looking for something more.



Au Contraire. :jawdrop: Insulation IS the answer here. It keeps the heat IN, not the cold out. It has a fast payback in cost and labor. 

With -30 to -40 F winter temps insulate the hell out of that crawlspace: walls AND floor with at least R-30 thickness solid foam sheets. Say you have a 20' X 20' crawlspace, attach the foam to the sides and floor. Keep the wood stove heat in where you live, not in a foundation-----unless you want to heat dirt and concrete. 

We built on a slab in a much warmer climate here in northern Maine. 
Sometimes we'll get a week or so down to -20's, but normally not. The slab is sandwiched with 2" foam under, on top, on the sides. 6" in the walls, 12" under the roof, ALL spaces in the frame, windows, doors caulked and foamed to hell. It is worth the time and work---unless you like to burn more wood. :monkey: 

Then again, if you want to play with reversing the Laws of Thermodynamics by pushing heat where it doesn't want to go, have fun. :greenchainsaw: The advice is from long experience....and worth what is costs.:agree2:


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 17, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> Au Contraire. :jawdrop: Insulation IS the answer here. It keeps the heat IN, not the cold out. It has a fast payback in cost and labor.
> 
> With -30 to -40 F winter temps insulate the hell out of that crawlspace: walls AND floor with at least R-30 thickness solid foam sheets. Say you have a 20' X 20' crawlspace, attach the foam to the sides and floor. Keep the wood stove heat in where you live, not in a foundation-----unless you want to heat dirt and concrete.
> 
> ...



How is insullation going to move the heat from upstairs where the wood stove is located, through his split level house, to the lower portion of his home ? 

Is there some physical property about insulation that the rest of us arent arware of ? Besides that it slows heat loss ?

If you have cold air in part of the house, heat it ! Either heat it directly or indirectly but heat it ! Take the heater to the air or take the air to the heater but H-E-A-T it. Then let insulation do its part by keeping it. But it has to be heated for insulation to do its part too.

Insulation will slow the heat loss from his living area to the -50* outdoors but it isnt going to move cold air out of his lower level. And it isnt going to move warmer air into there either. It is a good idea to insulate your living space to retain heat but there has to be some heat there to start with.

I didn't care to ask why he wanted his crawlspace warmer. Maybe it has pipes in there he dosnt want frozen. Maybe he wants his floors to be warmer, Maybe the crawlspace is his winter retreat area from the sweet, loving, attentive, little lady of the house. What do I care what his reasons for this are. He asked how to get more in there , not how to keep from losing it.

He also expressed an interest in using his wood stove to heat more of his house, namely the lower level of his split level home. Split levels differ from 2 story homes. Both levels are used for living space. They just arent stacked on top of each other. I dont recall his first post mentioning what type of fuel he was using down stairs. It could have been electricity or propane or fuel oil or chicken feathers. I didn't care to ask. He just wanted to use less of whatever he was using to heat with. Actually it was that he wanted to use more of the wood heat for all of his house. 

A cold air return from the lower level is needed to keep the coldest air from settling down there and stacking up. Warm air isnt going to go down there on it's own. It isnt going to stay there if it gets there forced either. Moving the cold air out will draw warmer air to that area. If it is pulled through his crawlspace back to the woodstove, this accomplishes both tasks Without the use of brute force to push air where it doesnt want to go.


(RANT)
I am such a moron to think, for even an instant, that since convection put that cold air down there that convection could also be used to draw it out. We need a BFI object of some type to force air into compliance with our wishes. Something to force warm air down instead of up. For BFI, a fan is perfect for this.

In my blithering ignorance how could I possibly attempt to accomplish 2 tasks at once without BFI. One task was to get the cold air out of down stairs so warmer air would want to go there. This makes better use of his woodstove and reduces the smell of burning chicken feathers. It might even save him some money by not having to buy quiote as much to use down there. The other was to move warm air to the crawlspace. Maybe so he didn't freeze to death on winter reteat while thawing the pipes under his house. Whatever his reasons were for both of these I offered one solution that addressed both of them directly. It didn't require any outside influence. It was simple, self priming, self starting and self sufficient. All that was needed was to apply heat, from behind his wood stove, to several feet of 4 inch or 6 inch single wall vent pipe. The heat used is to induce natural convection throughout the house. This creates a cold air return from downstairs to his woodstove. 
(/RANT)

EDIT: Logbutcher, maybe your post wasn't in refference to me offering advice to use natural forces to his gain. I wasnt trying to push anything against it will. It wasn't pointed directly at my last post, it only followed it. I may have taken it to much to heart. 

Just so I no one thinks I am against insulation. LoknLoad, once you have things set how you are going to get more heat down stairs from the upstairs wood stove dont forget to minimize your losses in the unheated crawlspace. No point in letting the cold air under your floors get any colder. Insulation is an effective way to minimize heat losses there. An extra measure of protection, in case you are away, is to add electric heat tape to the pipes for when you arent home to feed the wood eater. It wouldn't hurt to insulate the taped pipes with some wrap around foam pipe insulation made just for this.

All bases should be covered , your family should be toasty warm upstairs and downstairs this winter. your wallet might not feel the crunch so much from trying to force heat down, buying additional fuel to heat down stairs or frozen pipes in the crawlspace.

Confusion , mayhem and destruction, My work here is done.


----------



## logbutcher (Aug 17, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> How is insullation going to move the heat from upstairs where the wood stove is located, through his split level house, to the lower portion of his home ?
> Is there some physical property about insulation that the rest of us arent arware of ? Besides that it slows heat loss ?
> If you have cold air in part of the house, heat it ! Either heat it directly or indirectly but heat it ! Take the heater to the air or take the air to the heater but H-E-A-T it. Then let insulation do its part by keeping it. But it has to be heated for insulation to do its part too.
> Insulation will slow the heat loss from his living area to the -50* outdoors but it isnt going to move cold air out of his lower level. And it isnt going to move warmer air into there either. It is a good idea to insulate your living space to retain heat but there has to be some heat there to start with.
> ...




By god we have ignition. :monkey: Is the query to heat a crawlspace or not ? What a treatise ! Whew. That is a 1/2 six-pack read.  

Did the man want to heat an uninhabited crawlspace or not ? Will the Laws of Thermodynamnics be repealed here ?  Will that skin and bones and nada with the name of Hilton be elected dogcatcher ?

You want to heat dirt, fine ; "push" convection where it don't want to go, fine by me; want to heat that mass of foundation with no living beings, fine. It is still a free country...even in AK with The Bridge to No-Where. 

BUT: We dumbo hicks will still use insulation in construction the way it works= keep heat in. Repeat: insulation only operates to keep heat in from a source of heat. And though this is the internet, judge the info by your brain and in the real world. N.J.M.N.S.H.O.


----------



## Jkebxjunke (Aug 17, 2008)

and if i remember correctly he wants to spray the walls of the crawlspace with foam but its not in his budget right now... some times we have to make due with what we can afford right now.... and putting heat in the crawlspace to keep the pipes from freezing to avoid having to thaw them out and lay in water and muck to fix them while its - something below zero seems like a very miserable job to me... and the side benefit of warmer floors is a plus... ( and it prolly will make the mrs happy too. remember .. if she aint happy .. nobody's happy . and maybe the saving from not having to burn as much oil gas electric or chicken feathers will help for paying for foam next year.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 17, 2008)

I knew the chicken feathers comment was going to haunt me. I just wanted the guy and his family to be able to enjoy all of their house year round. 

I know he'll enjoy it more if he's warm, isnt paying quite as much for heat or listening to a duct fan running day and night.


----------



## Jkebxjunke (Aug 17, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> I knew the chicken feathers comment was going to haunt me. I just wanted the guy and his family to be able to enjoy all of their house year round.
> 
> I know he'll enjoy it more if he's warm, isnt paying quite as much for heat or listening to a duct fan running day and night.



Well The chicken feather comment struck me funny since I am a chicken farmer... LOL ( 124,000 broilers)


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 17, 2008)

Jkebxjunke said:


> Well The chicken feather comment struck me funny since I am a chicken farmer... LOL ( 124,000 broilers)



I dont know how long I cold get away with that big of an operation here. "The City" just passed an ordinance that you can only have upto 3 poultry, no more then 8 weeks old inside the city limits. I wonder if I could get away with 10,000 pull-its and 3 brooder hens ?

I guess if I want more poultry meat than chickens or gueneas (sp) I better start with bigger hens. Something the size of a goose or perhaps a few turkeys. Eh, why stop there I know of an emu ranch not to far away (drifting off, smiling, as I aggreivate the city officials beyong speakable words.) 

Now, I'm hungry for pecan and apple smoked drumsticks. Whats bigger than an Emu ? Roast game hen just isn't going to cut it for me now.

Anybody had any luck getting feathers to stay glued to a pig? Since we can't have even one of those now. 

OK , I'm back again. I think we had a lot of good answers here. I don't know if any one of them was the only single answer to the problem. Each has it's own merits. When he gets to all of them plus his unending Hunnydew list his family should be warm and dry as long as his woodpile holds out.

Guys have a great evening I only have till 9:59 PM here ( 20 more minutes ) that I can run my saws and there has to be something out that that needs trimmed, again.


----------



## mranum (Aug 17, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> I dont know how long I cold get away with that big of an operation here. "The City" just passed an ordinance that you can only have upto 3 poultry, no more then 8 weeks old inside the city limits. I wonder if I could get away with 10,000 pull-its and 3 brooder hens ?
> 
> I guess if I want more poultry meat than chickens or gueneas (sp) I better start with bigger hens. Something the size of a goose or perhaps a few turkeys. Eh, why stop there I know of an emu ranch not to far away (drifting off, smiling, as I aggreivate the city officials beyong speakable words.)
> 
> ...





Maybe this will help
http://www.nueskes.com/products/poultry/Smoked_Whole_Chickens.cfm

http://www.nueskes.com/products/Poultry.cfm

Nueskes meats are the best smoked meat I ever had.  Good thing I occasionally work very close to them.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Aug 18, 2008)

mranum said:


> Maybe this will help
> http://www.nueskes.com/products/poultry/Smoked_Whole_Chickens.cfm
> 
> http://www.nueskes.com/products/Poultry.cfm
> ...



That didn't help. Looked real good ! :drool: But it didn't help one bit. 

I was thinking of a big , juicy drumstick fit for Fred after a long day at the gravel pit.


----------



## loknlod (Aug 18, 2008)

logbutcher said:


> By god we have ignition. :monkey: Is the query to heat a crawlspace or not ? What a treatise ! Whew. That is a 1/2 six-pack read.
> 
> Did the man want to heat an uninhabited crawlspace or not ? Will the Laws of Thermodynamnics be repealed here ?  Will that skin and bones and nada with the name of Hilton be elected dogcatcher ?
> 
> ...



Ok, I am not sure where I didn't explain close enough but here goes. I plan to spray insulate the entire crawl space but it most likely will not get done before this winter. There is a little more to it than "I'm lazy and don't feel like doing it right now" or "I want to heat wasted space that is basically dirt and unhabited". When I do insulate, it will be done correctly and will last the life of the house (it will be expensive also) so it may not get done right now. Using insulation to keep heat in is fine, but right now there is no heat source in that crawlspace......So as the frost pushes down further and further during the winter, the crawl space tends to get cooler and cooler. I just plan to combat that by adding some wood stove heat down there temporarily. The stove is more than capable, even at -50 degrees outside air temp.


----------



## RatchetJaw (Aug 21, 2008)

*A simple tested solution with drawbacks.*

I have run into much of the same issues in the past my solution was a 4 in squirrel cage fan mounted on top of a piece of 4 inch PVC pipe just drilled a 3 inch hole in the pipe cap and mounted the fan to it it sucked the warm air off of the roof and worked great for getting the lower regions of the house warmed up there is a drawback though if the area is real tight to air leakage you will run into moisture problems due to condensations in the cooler area as its heating up much like a glass of ice water .


----------



## sdt7618 (Aug 21, 2008)

*Idea?*

Simple and free to run soln for the pipes, insulate them with pipe insulation but run a trace heating wire along them, fit a small solar panal, to 12v battery! Inital cost yes running cost no!


----------



## Doug Furr (Oct 16, 2008)

*convection*

I am also trying to heat the lower level of my house with my upstairs wood stove. The lower level is an insulated living space. I like the idea of using convection to circulate the heat. I've got a couple of questions:

I will need a fairly long run of pipe with several bends in it to get it from the wood stove to the lower level. Will this still work??

How high up do I need to run the pipe behind the stove?? Just below the ceiling or will the top of the stove suffice? It seems hotter at the top of the stove than further up.

What kind of pipe do I need??

Will the difference in lower level temps be noticeable?? 

Thanks!


----------



## loknlod (Oct 16, 2008)

Wow, did this thread ever come back at the right time! I was about to ask another similar question. 

I did install the set up for natural convection but I am not having very good luck with it. The easiest way to explain what I did is that one end of the tube is at the lowest (coldest) area of the room (crawlspace) and the other end is at the highest point of the warmest room (approx. 8" from the ceiling where the wood stove stack goes out). 

I have no doubt that some air movement is occuring but it doesn't seem like it is changing the crawlspace temp. very much. My wood stove has been fired up for days and the crawlspace temp. right now is 50 degrees. I ran a 4 inch pipe for my installation, FYI.

If you have any more questions about my set up, just ask.  

My question. If any of you were in this situation, would you move the hot air to the cold space or move the cold air to the hot space? Also, I would like to know why. (So the wife and I can argue about it some more  )


----------



## Mike Van (Oct 16, 2008)

Gee, it didn't work? What a surprise! Warm air won't go down on it's own after all.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 16, 2008)

Gee, you get an "F" for not paying attention. (No sense in spewing garbage that doesn't help.)

No one was trying to have warm air go down on its own. Heating the upper area of the pipe would make that air rise. Air from down lower (the crawlspace cold air) would enter the pipe and be gradually warmed until it exited the top of the pipe. 

As mentioned before, air movement is occuring but not enough to warm up this much space. 

I was hoping your reply was something constructive that might add to the topic at hand.


----------



## Mike Van (Oct 16, 2008)

It was, on the first page of this thread. If you want warm air down there for warm floors, you'll have to force it to go there. Physics 101. Otherwise, because it's an unused crawlspace, insulate the floor from below, let the rest sit as 'dead air' space.


----------



## laynes69 (Oct 16, 2008)

If it was me, I would just use heat tape if its not alot of pipes. If you open that area into the living space, it will cool that area alot when its that cold. I wouldn't want to heat that cold air from under there on top of the rest of the house. Maybe use a timer with heat tape, or something else on that effect. If its electric you are worried about, see what each one will draw. Just like said prior, heat will only rise. Thats why we heat with a woodfurnace, the whole house stays the same temp. Its forced air heat.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 16, 2008)

Mike Van said:


> It was, on the first page of this thread. If you want warm air down there for warm floors, you'll have to force it to go there. Physics 101. Otherwise, because it's an unused crawlspace, insulate the floor from below, let the rest sit as 'dead air' space.



Ok Mike, we've moved on from the original post. The natural convection idea was brought up shortly after I opened this thread and I had mentioned I was going to try it. Natural convection is not meant to force warm air where it doesn't want to go.

I still plan to use the ducting that is in place with a little "in line" blower fan, I just don't know if I should force the hot air down or force the cold air up.

Does it make a difference? Is there a good reason to try 1 or the other?


----------



## Mike Van (Oct 16, 2008)

I'd think you'll want to force the warm down, as drawing the cold from the un-insulated c.s. will only suck in more cold? And whats up with the cold floors? I thought all Alaskans had fur-lined moosehide mukluks?


----------



## trimmmed (Oct 16, 2008)

Mike Van said:


> Gee, it didn't work? What a surprise! Warm air won't go down on it's own after all.



LOL! Not "naturally" anyway


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 16, 2008)

Mike Van said:


> It was, on the first page of this thread. If you want warm air down there for warm floors, you'll have to force it to go there. Physics 101. Otherwise, because it's an unused crawlspace, insulate the floor from below, let the rest sit as 'dead air' space.



I remember making the orginal suggestion of putting in a cold air return to draw the cold air out of his lower level. I was quite surprised that so many people didnt understand natural convection and thought I was suggesting that convection would push warm air down there. That was not the case.

The suggestion was to draw the cold air out. drawing it out means it would be replaced by warmer air, return it to the heat source and re-heat it. Any one that doesn't follow what I posted please re-read my earlier attempts to explain it. That would be more productive than rehashing warm air convection, again.

Loknlod, the return line needs to be heated to create draw. The more heat, the more draw. The higher it goes behind the stove the more heat it will get and the faster it will travel. 90 degree bends slow things down considerably. Is the return 'duct', behind the stove, black pipe or galvanized ? Black will work better, it absorbs more heat from the exhaust flue. The closer you get it to the exhaust flue the better it should work. Something I hadnt thought of was that you might be using double or triplewall exhaust pipe. Mine is singlewall and gives off a lot of heat on a heavy burn. 

I have thought about putting a larger pipe around my (single wall) flue pipe so it heats the inside of the return instead of the outside. Should be easily done with a 'TEE' one size larger than the flue pipe and a couple pieces the same diameter as the tee. And something to couple the 4" to whatever size you use around the flue pipe. My flue pipe exits the stove from the top so I will have to include an elbow in there and run the return in from the side instead of the bottom of the tee. 

Yes this will cool the stack some but nothing like a fan forced heat recaimer. Keep an eye on your stack temperature to be sure you arent in the creosote danger zone. One thing about it. I won't have a 450 degree flue above my stove radiating heat across the room. It WILL be pulling cold air off my floor and out of my bedrooms using natural convection instead of electricity.

If I was going to use electricty to move the air I would push the cold air back to the heat source.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 16, 2008)

Mike Van said:


> I'd think you'll want to force the warm down, as drawing the cold from the un-insulated c.s. will only suck in more cold? And whats up with the cold floors? I thought all Alaskans had fur-lined moosehide mukluks?



Funny, I'm wearing moosehide slippers right now. 

The lower level of the house has living room, bedroom, bath, washer and dryer, and crawlspace. The crawlspace door is about 4 foot by 4 foot square. If the crawlspace door was open, (entire downstairs level sharing same air) would a person be able to draw the cold up to the hot or would some air still want to come in from outside?

I'm not saying forcing hot down to cold isn't the way to go, just want to make sure you see the layout. 

I guess the fan will be easily reversible so maybe this should be figured by trial and error. opcorn:


----------



## BIG JAKE (Oct 16, 2008)

loknlod said:


> Ok Mike, we've moved on from the original post. The natural convection idea was brought up shortly after I opened this thread and I had mentioned I was going to try it. Natural convection is not meant to force warm air where it doesn't want to go.
> 
> I still plan to use the ducting that is in place with a little "in line" blower fan, I just don't know if I should force the hot air down or force the cold air up.
> 
> Does it make a difference? Is there a good reason to try 1 or the other?



Best case lok the woodstove would be on the bottom floor. Then you don't need any air handling and the convection will work on it's own. But of course where you bring your wood in, distance to top floor, total square footage, and those types of considerations may be why you put it the stove where you did-your call. 
Here's my take on convection. If I missed a fair explanation previously my apology. Warm air rises and goes away from the heat source. The air that rises must be replaced where it came from at the source. Think of it like filling a bucket of water, only upside down. The ceiling is being continously filled with warm air thus forcing the colder air down towards the floor and back to the stove. This happens continuously as long as the heat source is in operation. It's called a convective loop. It works best when the stove runs all the time-not always possible since most of us have to work. 
If your set on the duct method of fixing what you have, an in duct fan as stated previously would work. Try it both ways as far as cold or hot and verify best results with a thermometer over a a day or two. If you want or need to keep cost down you could trigger the duct fan with a thermostat at a lower temp say 50 degrees or whatever. You can at least make the lower living space liveable during your extreme cold. For the crawl space you could use a small computer fan either AC or DC sized for the volume you have in there. My impression was fairly small I may be way off but pressed for time. For that fan you could use a snap switch or thermostat to keep it at 37 degrees in there or what's necessary. Then it's all automatic. As things fail, use an indoor outdoor thermometer with a probe and put the probe in the crawl space with thermometer where you can view and verify temps ok in the crawl space. If you don't want to mess with that then heat tape/insulation. 
On the Radon you can test for that. Ventilation is the only thing to help you there and bad for problem of heating that you have. Gotta run hope this helps. Ideas anyway.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 16, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> I remember making the orginal suggestion of putting in a cold air return to draw the cold air out of his lower level. I was quite surprised that so many people didnt understand natural convection and thought I was suggesting that convection would push warm air down there. That was not the case.
> 
> The suggestion was to draw the cold air out. drawing it out means it would be replaced by warmer air, return it to the heat source and re-heat it. Any one that doesn't follow what I posted please re-read my earlier attempts to explain it. That would be more productive than rehashing warm air convection, again.
> 
> ...



I ran the pipe right behind the stove pipe (single wall) and I am sure it needs more heat to work better. I used some thin galvanized pipe (the split stuff that you can buy at Lowes) but it just doesn't heat up a lot.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 16, 2008)

loknlod said:


> The lower level of the house has living room, bedroom, bath, washer and dryer, and crawlspace.
> 
> The crawlspace door is about 4 foot by 4 foot square. If the crawlspace door was open, (entire downstairs level sharing same air) would a person be able to draw the cold up to the hot or would some air still want to come in from outside?
> 
> ...



I didn't realise there was more than one large room downstairs. Guess I never asked or it never came up. One 4" return line for 3-4 rooms is undersized.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 16, 2008)

It is undersized if you want the down stairs to be as warm as the upstairs. If you are OK with the downstairs being cooler by more than 10 degrees it is still worth an effort so you arent spending as much for your alternative heat for the lower level. The more air you can move through that duct the closer the 2 will be to each other in temperature.

Are you reclaiming the heat from the dryer ? You are paying to heat air that dries the clothes, might as well be using some of that wasted heat to warm your home.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 16, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> It is undersized if you want the down stairs to be as warm as the upstairs. If you are OK with the downstairs being cooler by more than 10 degrees it is still worth an effort so you arent spending as much for your alternative heat for the lower level. The more air you can move through that duct the closer the 2 will be to each other in temperature.
> 
> Are you reclaiming the heat from the dryer ? You are paying to heat air that dries the clothes, might as well be using some of that wasted heat to warm your home.



Nope, I didn't intend to keep the crawlspace the same temp. as the upstairs. I figured the setup would offset the amount of fuel needed to heat the lower level by circulating the air naturally.

Reclaiming the dryer heat would not pay in our case. Just she and I and most of the clothes get air dried. Usually the dryer only gets used for a couple of loads on Sunday.

The thermostat downstairs is at about 68 so the room temp. will be just that, no matter what source of heat/air flow I use. I would prefer the wood do the heating since it is "my fuel", as compared to the fuel I buy monthly from off the fuel truck.

We run ceiling fans a lot in the house. I can't see how this little in line blower will be much worse for electricity use than them. I can always check that with a meter if I want to.


----------



## Mkarlson (Oct 16, 2008)

If nothing else reading this thread has me wanting to try out the pipe behind the stove. I think it would be a great experiment for my children (ages 5,8,10,13) to be apart of. After reading I have no doubt placing pipe behind stove from floor to ceiling would cause the air in the pipe to travel up. What I would like to see and to show the children is the ashes/dust being sucked up from the bottom. Just for the record this would be a simple temporary setup. I have no need for this other then to satisfy my own curiosity and maybe keep the minds of my children working on things other than preparing to pass the next state required test, the schools need them to do well on, in order to get their funding for next year.

schools and their agendas


----------



## RatchetJaw (Oct 17, 2008)

*air suction*

Ok there is one thing i want you to keep in mind when using the blower for the crawl space this will create a vacuum affect in the house and bring more cool air into the house then there was orrigionally. so either way the cold is gonna come in cause if the cold air cant come into the house then the warm cant transfer out it will just creat a negative pressure difference and the blower will be doing nothing for you till the pressures are eqaulized. one question I have could you use water piping instead? I plan on doing it this way one of these days ive done it before and it worked excellent take your stove out cut 4 holes in both sides directly opposite from each other then run steel pipes inside the firebox just so the are above the firebrick or i guess in some stove models below weld these in place and make sure the welds are good as in no air or Co2 can leak out .then connect the 2 most outer pipes to the 2 inner ones on the stove with some fittings so they make a solid mess of pipes to flow water through ok so here is how this works you need a small resivor say in the 5 to 10 gallon range t o hold a supply of water keep in mind this needs to be open so the sytem can breath and expand so use like a bucket or somthing like this with out a lid just make sure it can spill out now what you wanna do is run black abs pipes kinda zig zag across the floor well under it anyways between the joists then connect them all so they are in one long continous length connect 1 end of the hose to the water resivor its the return side of the system then connect the other end to the stove where the hot water will flow into the pipes then connect another section of hose between the stove and bucket . fill the system with enough water to fill the pipes and just a wee bit extra for evaporation and leave some room for the water to expand so it doesnt wind up on the floor now its real important that the water resivor is located higher up then the stove by maybe a foot or more other wise it will all siphon itself down to the level of the stove now the way this works is similar to how your coffee perk works the cold water in the metal tubes in the fireplace will heat up and get pushed out cause the cold water is trying to rush in behind it and its denser so it will just start a natural convection cold in hot out cold in hot out and it will just keep returning to the resivor but in the process it will loose its heat to the floor underneath works just like a car radiator. Also the beauty of this id that you can also use this type of system to heat up your hot household water instead of using a propane burner or god forbid electric and if you do it this way just eliminate the water resivor and use your water heater tank as the resivor to do this use a Y adapter on the vold water supply side and one on the other aswell this will now make this a pressurized system but since not water will be escaping the hot water tanks are already built to handle the pressures of hot and expanding water also no need to worry bout the house pump if you have one running the system will stay pressurized but the water heat transfer convection system will still keep it moving then you can kill the power or gas to the hot water heater and if ever in a pinch the hotwater heater could itself be turned back on to heat up the floor like say you run out of that free fuel also as a note if you use the hotwater heater method make sure you also put a brass inline valve on both sides of the hot water tank so you can efectivly close of or also use them to adjust your temperature settings in the floor it can only flow as fast as you let it. then there is no need to worry about the house pressure changing and bringing in more cold air .:greenchainsaw:http://www.**********/econtent/images/uploads/dhw1.gif as per this diagram I found just insert your in crawlspace pipeing between the tank cold side and the stove.Also check this site out could save you the headache if your not much of a do it your selfer. http://www.hilkoil.com/


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 17, 2008)

Loknlod, I wasnt thinking of keeping the crawlspace the same temp as upstairs. I was thinking of getting the lower living area warmer by pulling the cold air from there through the crawlspace back to the stove to be heated. As long as the crawl space was kept above freezing the pipes in there dont freeze. If the air in there is 60* instead of 25* the floors will feel warmer.

If the 4 foot by 4 foot crawl space door was open to the lower level I dont see how there could be much negative pressure through a 4 inch round opening getting it back up to the wood stove. Circulating air inside the house shouldn't be pulling in cold air from outside.

Initially, I suggested an opening at floor level downstairs into the crawl space. Then install a completely vertical pipe, behind the wood stove, going through the floor to the crawlspace directly below the stove. The air in the vertical pipe would be warmed. The air in it would rise pulling cold air out of the crawlspace. The floor level opening downstairs would allow cold air from that room to flow into the crawlspace. Air would circulate through the house naturally instead of the cold air stacking up downstairs. 

To check for any airflow through the return, strike a match at the opening downstairs. With the woodstove burning, if it draws the smoke/flame into it, it is working. The question then becomes how much better can you make it work that will satisfy the need for heat down there without firing up the gas/oil burner. That was why I asked about if the top pieces were shiny galvanized or black flue pipe. Then I offered the suggestion of putting a piece of larger pipe around the flue to directly warm the air traveling through it instead of only indirectly warming it. Directly warming it will pull much more air from down there.

I wasn't considering the cost of electricity. I was thinking more about the avaiability of it during an outage. Without electricity the downstairs would be cold AND dark not just dark.

I think I posted that I ran onto doing this by accident. While getting ready to install new stovepipe I set the new black flue pipe behind the stove with the elbow end on the floor. The next time I emptied ashes I notice how much air was moving through the pipe from convection. It was pulling cold air from off the floor, not just from near the floor at the level of the stove. The air was being warmed all the way down to the floor now. This allowed better convection throughout the house ( single level ) and the bedrooms were a good 8 - 10 degrees warmer than they had been in the past. The fact that they were warmer was a plus. That they were warmer without the use of electricity was even more of a plus. 

This year I changed it a bit. I mentioned how earlier and will spare going back over the details. It works for me. I burn dry wood and my flue temps are still high enough that creosote hasnt been an issue. 

Drawing the cold air from downstairs back to the heat source will help regardless of if it is done with or without electricity. The cost of electricity to move the air should still be less than the supplemental fuel needed to heat that living area. Any heat you *push* down there is going to go directly towards the ceiling and up the stairs. Any cold air you *pull* from there will be replaced by warmer air from upstairs.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 17, 2008)

I should have worded my response differently. I simulated a small vent at the crawlspace door by cracking the door open just a bit. I figured this would allow sufficient return (warmer) air to the crawlspace to replace what the hot air pipe was sucking through convection. 

If the rooms are vented together, I can't see how I would be drawing cold air through the crawlspace from outside due to a pressure difference. Basically I mentioned keeping the 4' by 4' door open just to give everyone a picture that the crawlspace isn't a sealed off area. The crawlspace already has vents to the main level which add up to 4" by 40" so I am not sure if I will need more venting to stabilize pressure when this little fan is running. The fan claims it can move 80 cfm and I plan to have a resistive type switch so I can regulate fan speed if needed.

If I am missing something, by all means let me know. I wouldn't be asking questions if I had all of the answers.opcorn:


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 17, 2008)

I follow what you are saying. With the opening into the crawlspace larger than the one the fan is in there should be very little negative pressure to draw in cold air from outside your house. 

The lower in the room the opening is the more cold air it will draw. Having the opening downstairs 4" tall and 40" wide at the bottom of the door seems better than 4" wide and 40" tall. Same amount of opening, just it is pulling only the coldest air from the room.

Anything that gets the cold air back to the woodstove will keep you from running the gas burner as much.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 17, 2008)

*Pretty cool! (convection that is)*

Temperature is -7 this morning so I am running the stove pretty warm. I decided to see what the draft was at the cold end of the tube. I first tried a match to watch the smoke and that worked ok but the smoke only lasted for a couple seconds when the match was blown out. I saw a spider web nearby and took a long strand of it and hung it in front of the tube and WALLAH, we have suction.

Just thought I would share, if the kids want to learn from this experiment have them use a spider web (maybe even the fake halloween stuff would work) instead of matches.


----------



## RatchetJaw (Oct 17, 2008)

*Ok I see what your saying*

You are absolutely right the more cold air to the stove the better . what i was thinking is that this crawlspace was under the house and is probably not sealed up to well from the outside air drafts and such . and in my understanding if that is the case then you might or could cause more cold air in then the stove can keep up with in output Btu's that was my only concern I use a similar method to keep my place warm because my place has a Lopi Answer insert in a zero clearance in what I consider a false wall that the chimney runs in all the way to the roof what i did was drill a 2 inch whole through the back corner of the zero clearance box and mounted my fan blower right to it so not only does it blow through to the back of the stove it circulates all that dissipated heat back out of the zero clearance box from between the two layers and since this false wall has an access in my attic it also works to draw even more of the cooled off hot air back down to the blower for a good second reheating works very well before i did this I could run my stove all day and I would get no heat just a very little through the door. and I have my small blower hooked in with a rheostat so I can adjust the airflow up or down .this stove was in here when I moved in it was already installed they didn't run a cold air intake through the bottom and this is my only complaint it drafts its air from right in the front so it sucks the heat it makes right back out the chimney the zero clearance also doesn't:greenchainsaw: allow for it to vent from outside and I cant modify it to much or it will loose its ability to actually work after I did my fan install I had it inspected by a certified stove tech and had my chimneys cleaned at the same time .and he approved my blower and the location.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 17, 2008)

The stove has its own cold air intake from outside, that was highly recommended for this model and our conditions. The foundation is sprayed outside which should be pretty air tight. I believe the biggest problem is the idiot who built the place didn't spray the interior walls of the crawlspace to keep the frozen ground temps. from radiating through the walls. The sprayed foundation only goes down to ground level or barely beyond I believe, and the crawlspace continues for about 3 feet below that. 

I think the wife and I are going to have a crawlspace rearranging party this spring and then give the insulation guy a call.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 17, 2008)

So I wasn't nuts to think the heat from the stove would pull air from the 'room' below it ? All of the air that passes through that pipe was the cold air stacking up down stairs.

-7 thats cold enough that I would have mine cranking. If the pipe behind the stove isn't hot it should be. 

If it isnt, can you replace it with a darker colored set ?

Even if you have to add a fan, to move more air than convection allows, the darker color will be more efficient at heat transfer than galvanized.

Have you given any thought to double walling the flue pipe and plumbing the return line to it ?


----------



## RatchetJaw (Oct 17, 2008)

*party huh lol*

yeah that sounds like a good idea you could even run 2 inch rigid in the stud cavities I have done that to all 3 of my houses and under the floor joist like the sprayed in stuff it seals out drafts and works wonder for warmth . still think the thermosiphon loop would be awesome though just think nice warm floors no cold pipes etc.


----------



## loknlod (Oct 17, 2008)

"So I wasn't nuts to think the heat from the stove would pull air from the 'room' below it ? All of the air that passes through that pipe was the cold air stacking up down stairs."

Not at all, I am not saying it will move enough air for my situation but it definetly moves air!

"If it isnt, can you replace it with a darker colored set ?"

I painted it black to match the stove pipe.

"Have you given any thought to double walling the flue pipe and plumbing the return line to it ?"

Not really, I don't think the wife wants too many modifications on a nice looking wood stove in her living room. It is very noticable when you walk into the house. Not only that, I have it set up so I can clean out the stack to remove creosote in about a half an hour. Important because I do it once a month. Too many houses go up in flames around here every year do to stove pipes not being maintained. I don't want to have any excuse for not taking the time when it needs it.

"yeah that sounds like a good idea you could even run 2 inch rigid in the stud cavities I have done that to all 3 of my houses and under the floor joist like the sprayed in stuff it seals out drafts and works wonder for warmth . still think the thermosiphon loop would be awesome though just think nice warm floors no cold pipes etc."

Sounds nice but stove modifications and insurance companies do not get along. So far, my stove is set up exactly the way it was installed by a professional.


----------



## KsWoodsMan (Oct 17, 2008)

loknlod said:


> KsWoodsMan said:
> 
> 
> > "Have you given any thought to double walling the flue pipe and plumbing the return line to it ?"
> ...



Sounds right to me, double walling it will slow down cleaning the flue. I certainly wouldn't wish a house fire on anyone. You've considered it and I wont push. Besides, if she isn't happy , nobodies gonna be happy.


----------

