# notch?



## lostone (Jul 24, 2004)

OK, this is just out of curiosity but it popped into my mind the other day, So I will ask this question two ways and see what happens. I have been reading on how to notch and watching video's on them ( I don't even take tree's down but its just something I was wondering) anyway lets say there is a 60' tree, and in this case we will figure it both soft and hardwood, with say a 5' BACK lean on it, now would a tree like this have to be topped then dropped in order to be a safe removal (by the way nothing close, say an open area) or would this tree, having a rope in the in it to pull in the felling direction (sorry for all the wrong terms) have to be strapped in order not to worry about slabbing (or I think that is what you call it) or would it be safe to make the notch put a plunge cut have tension on rope and finish the backcut? Again sorry for all the mistakes on terms but hopefully you can understand what I am meaning. The reason I state both hard and softwood is I would assume there is a differance as to how they would act to the forces.


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## BigJohn (Jul 24, 2004)

Safer for who? Which way do you want it to go? I say just put the rope in it tighten it up and cut away. Since its in the open like you said who cares what way it goes. There is only one way it can go and that is down. Anything is possible with a strong enough rope, ample pull, and a perfect notch.


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## Husky372 (Jul 24, 2004)

either wedge it over or drop it with the lean. why waste time with ropes.


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## BigJohn (Jul 24, 2004)

Slabbing mean barber chair?


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *why waste time with ropes. *



100% accuracy.

:angel:


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## a_lopa (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *100% accuracy.
> 
> :angel: *




and insurance,they wont pay if theres no rope bro


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 24, 2004)

There ya go!  

I can't conceive throwing a questionable tree without setting a rope it it. I've done it on ROW's and stuff like that, but when a home/whatnot becomes involved, _I take no chances._


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## murphy4trees (Jul 24, 2004)

That's the difference between arborists like us and the loggers whom like to chime in over here on our forum..... And they sound like they think we're crazy for wanting to put a rope in a tree  ...The fact is we got rope and we know how to put it into a tree....fast... and we don't have to drag it around the woods all day either, cause we park our trucks in the driveway.... A lot of the skills for logging crossover into treework, but it is a whole different game... Bottom line is we get paid differetly.

So how 'bout we make a deal.... All the arborists won't call you loggers "fellers", if you stop making fun of us for using ropes to pull trees over. And most importantly maybe we can all work at opening our minds a little to the fact that each one of us might just not know everything there is to know about this work.... Different trees, climate, terrain, clientelle, and objectives... 

Did you guys see that video clip of Graham blowing the big limb with explosives?... What do you think I send him an email telling him how ridiculous it is to go to all that trouble to take out a limb, when in all my years of pruning apple trees I never had to use explosives once... He'd really appreciate that advice.... huh?


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## lostone (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by BigJohn _
> *Safer for who? Which way do you want it to go? I say just put the rope in it tighten it up and cut away. Since its in the open like you said who cares what way it goes. There is only one way it can go and that is down. Anything is possible with a strong enough rope, ample pull, and a perfect notch. *


OK, BJ and 372 sorry I'm not good at explaining things as you can see. When reading on or watching a video on making the notch and back cuts on tree's I have noticed that they really dont show or explain much on backleaned tree's, it was only out of curiosity that I asked this question and just figured I would ask it for understanding how and why's. OK with that aside, the reason I stated with nothing around was incase the answer would have been to take the top out, I guess I should have explained that one, Oops on my part  OK now to get back on track, I guess slabbing wasn't the word I was looking for so theres #2, but anyway when a part of the tree splits and kicks back, there was a pic on here in one of the threads but I can't find it to link up to. What I was getting at was that in making the notch, If on a tree leaning in the direction opposite of the intended fall, would putting the notch on a tree like this possibly cause the tree to want to split while making the cut and kick back onto the individual with the saw. And that was why I was asking if it would be best to put a rope to help keeping the tree from wanting to fall in the wrong direction and keep the tree from wanting to split also, that was also why I was asking if it would be best to strap the tree in a couple of spots just above the notch to help keep if from wanting to split and kick back. This may all be overkill I dont know and I'm not a pro and dont claim or want to be  Like I said before it was just out of curiosity, they dont cover it in the limited vid I have, only thing it covers is a tree being cut and allowed to drop in the path of the lean.


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## Husky372 (Jul 24, 2004)

he said it's in a field no chance of hitting anything so wheres the need for a rope


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## rumination (Jul 24, 2004)

Lostone,
What you called 'slabbing' is known as a barber chair, and is something to definitely be avoided. Your idea of binding the tree above the notch is one way of doing so. A properly executed plunge cut is another. 

As far as dropping a tree against its lean it would be necessary to use ropes/cables and a winch or mechanical advantage of some sort to pull the top of the tree over its center of gravity. Another tactic might be to pound a stack of wedges into your backcut, but as I have no experience with that, I'll leave it to the loggers. Disclaimer: All of the above techniques can be dangerous, and should only be attempted by those who are experienced or have been trained how to do so. Sounds like you know that already, though.


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## murphy4trees (Jul 24, 2004)

OK Husky,
i Am going to ask you to use your imagination...
IMAGINE that you made your living by driving up to someones house, getting out of the truck , knocking on the door and saying "Hi Mrs. Smith, We're here to do your treework"... 

So given that scenario, maybe you could answer your own question... "Where's the need for a rope?"

It might take a little imagination on your part, but becasue I work for Mrs Smith all the time, I can think of 5 good reasons, right off and there are probably another couple of dozen good reasons given different scenarios....

How about this one for starters... You put a rope in a backleaner to see how much pull it takes to move the tree, so when you have to drop one in a critical situation, it's not total guess work...

OK so there is one possible answer to your question... Can you think of anymore???


PS... I know MB's answer.... we should ask the guy who's winning on Jeapordy..


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## lostone (Jul 24, 2004)

Been trying to pick it up Rocky, I have been looking around, I just like to read up on things and see how there done, like I state I'm no pro and dont even want to take on one like this. It's just out of curiosity, I wasnt figuring that the notch could make the diff, was just wondering if while making the notch in a tree with a back lean if this could turn to be one of the results in having it split and kick back. Thanks for the info ALL and please try to understand this is just a question not something I'm trying to go for. Thanks.


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## Husky372 (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *OK Husky,
> i Am going to ask you to use your imagination...
> IMAGINE that you made your living by driving up to someones house, getting out of the truck , knocking on the door and saying "Hi Mrs. Smith, We're here to do your treework"...
> ...



you can keep your condesending attitude to yourslf there murphy becuase i never said anything to deserve it. alls i said is plain and simply if its in a *field* i see no need for a rope. i dont care what you say. if theres no chance of it hitting anything whats the benifit unless you want to practice or make yourself look like you know what your doing.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 24, 2004)

You are correct, sir. And on more than one account, I might add. 

A rope is for precision placement or guaranteed pull, or at least that's the plan.


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## Husky372 (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *You are correct, sir. And on more than one account, I might add.
> 
> A rope is for precision placement or guaranteed pull, or at least that's the plan. *


mb i understand that, and i think thats great. but you can accomplish the same thing with properly placed notch, its in a field remember with nothing else around. if it was near house, wires, or other trees rope is the best bet. but in a field with nothing around it..... quess i have no imgination but why you gus are setting ropes i would have the tree down safely.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *mb i understand that, and i think thats great. but you can accomplish the same thing with properly placed notch*



Sure bro, that's true. It's just when you have the potential for massive liability, you need to take advantage of everything possible to insure everything goes as planned.

Setting a rope ain't no big deal.


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## Husky372 (Jul 24, 2004)

not trying to be difficult but what liabilty its in a field with nothing around it.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I can't conceive throwing a questionable tree without setting a rope it it. I've done it on ROW's and stuff like that, but when a home/whatnot becomes involved, I take no chances. *



You do not need a rope to throw a tree in a clear zone.

Or a field.


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## Husky372 (Jul 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by lostone _
> *OK, this is just out of curiosity but it popped into my mind the other day, So I will ask this question two ways and see what happens. I have been reading on how to notch and watching video's on them ( I don't even take tree's down but its just something I was wondering) anyway lets say there is a 60' tree, and in this case we will figure it both soft and hardwood, with say a 5' BACK lean on it, now would a tree like this have to be topped then dropped in order to be a safe removal (by the way nothing close, say an open area) or would this tree, having a rope in the in it to pull in the felling direction (sorry for all the wrong terms) have to be strapped in order not to worry about slabbing (or I think that is what you call it) or would it be safe to make the notch put a plunge cut have tension on rope and finish the backcut? Again sorry for all the mistakes on terms but hopefully you can understand what I am meaning. The reason I state both hard and softwood is I would assume there is a differance as to how they would act to the forces. *


this is how the thread stated MB note in a field nothing cose by. others through in hazards.


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## lostone (Jul 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *not trying to be difficult but what liabilty its in a field with nothing around it. *


OK, 372 you got me there. I screwed up when I posted the first part of this thread and I will admit it. Basically is what I was getting at was, what is considered to be one of the safest ways to land a tree with a backlean on it. The main part of the question was really on dealing with the notch and if it had a potential to want to split while making the notch because of the backlean. The part I guess about a open area was a bad way of putting it, I should have said if there was road behind it and you didn't want the tree to go the way of the lean because of the road. I was figuring the answer from the pro's would have been more along the lines of they would have taken the top out and the dropped the rest, but they have that ability to get up the tree. So I was trying to put it in a way that if that was not a resonable way to do it then is that the only safe way to do it and it would take a pro, or could it have a rope put in it strapped just above the notch a plunge cut then cut the back strap with some pressure on the rope (and as added by some a wedge) to give the tree pull in the direction of the notch to bring it over the top. I don't know if 5' of lean on a 60' tree would be to much to bring back over thats why I was trying to pick a # that was relativily small on the lean, but then again 5' could be large. It's on a hypo situation, and just a question for the general knowledge. The only thing I cut up myself is wood that has been dropped already for fire wood once the roads have been opened back up from the winter closier so I don't have to deal with this situation.


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## climber (Jul 25, 2004)

*felling a tree*

we are all good at our own thing and our own way with what we do with trees,lets not bash each other.
our advertisers bailey's and sherrill both have many informative videoes and books.i have several of each and learned abit from each about falling and rigging trees. 
the online info. ain't near what their catalogs offer.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *Here's the problem fellows.
> 
> Lost one says the tree has a backlean. A backlean means it's leaning the way you don't want it to go.
> ...



it means the same thing it means to you. but the way he poised the question it didn't matter what way the tree went.


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## Joe (Jul 25, 2004)

.


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## lostone (Jul 25, 2004)

Backlean was lean, I had been reading on one of the other threads and seen side lean and thought I seen front lean. So figured backlean on the term for cutting the notch on the opposite side of the lean. By the way this is the thread I was reading on good pics and a good thread explained alot when seeing the pics and reading the posts plunge cutting LOL guess I just need to shut up and read somemore


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## a_lopa (Jul 25, 2004)

ropes are my best freind.ive got logger mates they dont understand tree work,sure they can use a saw(big deal)or push a tree over.confined space or a house near by and there out of there depth.ive had many an argument over simple things to me,seem pointless to them.climbers rule the tree world,no matter what anyone says.got to remember husky its a walk in the park for us to set a line.nothing a logger hates more than to have to call me to put there own tree on the deck


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## BigSawMan (Jul 25, 2004)

Silvey Jacks  


I know im wrong, I have no room to dilly dally around in here, im a mere peasant.


Neil


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jul 25, 2004)

Back Leaners i think, take placing everything on your side, even more so than usual. If ya do everything to max anyway to polish the habits and skills in speed and positiveness; this back lean extreme positioning, just then takes more double checks.

The hinge flexability i think should be high, the face, with no kerf dutchmans, perfectly smooth, unimpeded mechanics. We want pure easy movement, and all line pull directed to target, not distracted. i like my line over the top, back down to base, to 'support'/firm/push on the back spine of the spar leaning back; also i believe more rotational force is then applied against the backlean to pitch forward.

i think steering straight any sidelean should definitaely be handled by the hinge pattern, so as not to be carried on the pull line, for more powerful pull backwards agaisnt the odds, to proper target. If after bringing CG past pivot of hinge you have an obstacle to steer or roll from, i've used some late step dutching that would engage/close only on the one side, as the other side of hinge still pulls. Due to warnings against any dutching the faces, i keep this to smaller trees, high stumps and climbing etc. cuts, but very favorably!

Definitely NOT a time for a slanted backcut in my opinion, as this is going backwards, a false security. Attachment is one from a while back, and also treats another issue besides the slanted backcut dangers i theorize.


i think this is a good analagy of any felling, but just the level of necessity in this extreme positioning and motion, make the strategies workings more evident at this level of competition to target.

Or,
something like that!
:alien: 

Edit: Viewing Large Pictures from AS from Starting AS Thread in Support and Announcements Forum


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 25, 2004)

Just thought I would chime in here a give my 2 cents worth. Falling trees is nothing more than defeating or implementing gravity in order to get the tree down safely and as fast as possible. This means using the inherant wisdom of the tree and/or some external force, such as cable, rope or brute force, all working in conjunction with the hingewood. In the woods 99% of trees can be felled of there own accord with simply finessing the holding wood.
Now, with regards to the opening post, if the notch is placed right under the lean, it will require some plunging of the heart centre, because the tree will want to fall very fast due to the excessive lean. Plunging makes it fall all the faster with no fibre pull or butt shatter. However, if we move the knotch around the stump, say another 30 degrees, we have in essence defeated the maximum gravitational pull of the tree, but have also changed it's direction of fall by 30 degrees. This is where wedges come in handy. There are as many ways of bringing down a tree as there are woodticks out there. The trick is to trust and have confidence in the strength of holding wood or the lack thereof. This only comes with experience and every tree is different.
John


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## Newfie (Jul 25, 2004)

Husky,

Take a deep breath and relax. I read the same post as you and thought the exact same thing. If there is nothing to break why use a rope unless you want to fall it with the rest of the strip for ease of skidding.


I think the problem is two-fold. lostone got confused with his terminology and the hot shots read much faster than us loggers so they miss some of the important facts. Us stupid loggers know nothing about anything and move our lips when we read. I still haven't finished murph's article so I don't know if it's any good or not.


Too bad it has taken two pages of snipes and jabs and I still don't think anyone has mentioned a bore cut as a viable means of preventing a barber chair on a heavy leaner.


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## Newfie (Jul 25, 2004)

I guess Gypo types faster than me.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 25, 2004)

What causes a barberchair is if there is a lot of force pulling the tree, like when you have a heavy leaner. You can duplicate this force by putting a rope int he tree and pulling too hard. 
This is one of the many reasons the truck pull is dangerous. The driver could put too much presure on the line and cause the tree to barberchair.
If you are using a come-a-long, winch, block-and-tackle, or similar setup to pull the tree over, you probably won't get the type of loads you need to barberchair the tree.

Here's what I would do: put a reasonable amount of presure on the line, plan my escape route, make my notch, cut my backcut from the side of the tree so if it does split I'm out of the way, stop my backcut when I have the hinge thickness at about 10% the diameter of the tree, and then signal the man on the rope to slowly finish pulling over the tree (if is hasn't gone over from the initial line presure).


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 25, 2004)

*Hey Stupid Loggers! LOL*

If we look at a notch and hingewood as nothing more than a door swinging on it's hinges, then a barberchair can be visualized as a piece of wood jammed in the door hinges and the door forcefully closed. This causes the hinges to break. So a tree will barberchair if the notch isnt totaly clean and the cuts don't meet. An added precaution against barberchair is to cut "ears", on either side of the undercut. 
In defense of climbers, prior to the advent of AS. "They", were not very savy with saws, hence all the "summerwood", summer this long, summer that long. Most climbers actually abhor chainsaws and don't really twig to their proper use, hence all the other antics that are resorted to to make it look like they know what their doing. Of coarse this doesn't include the arborists here, whom I have taught so well.
John


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 25, 2004)

And so was borne the long standing feud between the loggers and arborists...


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 25, 2004)

Hi Mike, it's all good. A bit of good natured ribbing is always welcome. 
Wouldn't it be fun if we could all "job shadow" each other for a day, just to see how we all put our day together? I think Silver Blue is the only AS member that was ever on one of my jobs, but alas, he doesn't like me anymore, and why would he?
John


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## BigJohn (Jul 25, 2004)

You guys are cranky. Going back to what Dan said about knocking on Mrs Smith's door. I must still be in logger phase alot of times I like to just get out the truck with saw and gear in hand and start putting brush on the ground. The ???? door bell never works anyway so maybe the sound of a saw or chipper going will get their lazy asses out of bed. I hate standing at the door step for 15 minutes wondering if the door bell worked or maybe they just dont want to get their rich ass out of bed. I spent a few months working side by side with some loggers and I learned alot about felling dropping whatever term you guys like to use now. Its a whole different mind set and I have spent the last 4 years trying to forget that.


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## matthias (Jul 25, 2004)

A very important sidewalk had to be installed and the idiots happened to find some roots right under this tree. Anyway, I used the bucket to take off all the tops and planned on falling it. It had a "backlean" so to speak so I put a rope (not high enough) to help persuade her to lay down. I tied off the block to the chipper fifty feet away, Tied a butterfly knot and ran a 2 to 1 come along with the rope to pull it down. Cut the notch, made the backcut, inserted wedge, put saw down and help groundman pull. Nothing. Cut more holding wood and pull. Repeat x3. Grab another wedge, pound the b**tard in, cut a little bit more (feel nervous and incompetent by this time) and finally muscle the prick over but not without it looking like it was going to snap off sideways or backwards in between pulls (paranoid.) The moral of the story: rope good. Wedges good. Rope and wedges great. Dumb luck - yes please.


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## John Ellison (Jul 25, 2004)

IMO, if the 60' tree with 5' of backlean was in an open field, it could be fell safely 180 deg. against the lean with wedges or a pull line. If there is anything in reach that you absolutly cannot destroy. then no question about it, set a line up high. 
I am a Big Shot logger with no heavy equipment so when I run into a leaner by a building, nice fence or whatever, out comes the B.S. This usually means it is in a yard (no brush) close to my truck.So it is actually easier than a lot of wedging and as close as you can get to 100% sure. I am not an arborist but I use the BS regularly to set a line. It is faster than you would think if you havent used one. But if it isnt a heavy leaner and is over a ratty old barbed wire fence then its wedges. 
Lostone, IMHO the safest way is with a set/pull line and wedges. One is backup for the other. Descriptions of how to actually do it are found elsewhere on this site that are a lot better than what I could give

John


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: Hey Stupid Loggers! LOL*



> _Originally posted by Gypo Logger _
> * Of coarse this doesn't include the arborists here, whom I have taught so well. *




Hahaha!!! I would love to spend some time with you, in the brush. I could learn a lot more about felling and bucking, I'll betcha. But I don't hate my saws, I just am a retard when it comes to the inner workings. I wish I did know more about em. I _hate_ mechanicing, but I wouldn't mind learning about _my_ saws.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: Re: Hey Stupid Loggers! LOL*



> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I wouldn't mind learning about my saws. *




Take them apart, all the way apart. Then put 'em back together. Never let anyone else work on your saws. You'll be an expert in no time.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *And so was borne the long standing feud between the loggers and arborists... *


and alls i said is i didn't see the need for a rope. then all the arborist start taking it as some kind of insult and start the fued all over again. so watch out loggers becuase we dont know anything about trees, or how to drop them safely, were all just hacks.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

I hope I didn't make you feel like that.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

no mb you are one of the few arborist on this site that doesn't seem to think loggers are........


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 25, 2004)

The original poster was try to set up a situation to answer a question about barberchairing. Instead of offering help, you made made a joke.
Tell us how you would fell a 60' tree against a 5' lean, and explain about baberchairing.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

you must have an odd sense of humor, becuase i dont remember making a joke. i made 2 suggestions, wedge it or drop with lean which is what i would do since the original senerio is in a field. as for preventing barberchairing i like to plunge cut.


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## SteveBullman (Jul 25, 2004)

thats enough now girls


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## BigJohn (Jul 25, 2004)

Husky you didn't answer Mikes question. Are just avoiding this one? Most loggers are hacks. When it comes to get them down and out and on the truck they are great at what they do. Don't ask them to clean up the mess they leave behind such as the broken hanging limbs in trees they leave behind.


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## murphy4trees (Jul 25, 2004)

I think this thread most clearly demonstrates the difference between loggers and arborists.... My point was, and is, that there is a different mentality and approach to the work... Some of the rules are the same but it's a different game... Kinda like golf and basketball.... Both are trying to put the ball in the little hole, but in golf you get paid for a low score, and in basketball you get paid for a high score...

Now the original post didn't use the term field... he used hte term open area... OPen area to me means lawn... to a logger it means field... So why drop it against the lean if your a logger? Probably a bunch of good reasons... 

And for an arborist the reasons I can think of mostly have to do with what we do after the tree is on the ground.... Maybe we want to drop the tree in the street, so we don't have to rake up or fix the grass... maybe we want to drop it against the lean so we don't have to carry anything uphill, or maybe its closer to the truck and chipper, so taking a few minutes to set a pull line can save a lot of hard work moving the tree.... Maybe we want to use the log from that tree to cushion the fall of the next tree coming down... There are a lot of possibe scenarios that would never come up for a logger...
If a logger can put 99% of 60' trees on the ground without a rope... great for him.... I put a rope in 95+% of my 60' trees, even when they are front leaners and I AM in a hurry... I still do it cause what happens if the tree goes the wrong way.... A logger is willing to take that chance... An arborist won't becasue it costs too much.... A logger doesn't have to worry about dealing with an irate customer.... We gotta care about the bushes and flowers... Big Jon's company doesn't even let him put divits in the lawn.... That's a lot different than a logging...


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

big john you got big mouth. how did i avoid the the question? i said i would plunge cut, or are you such an idiot you dont know the meaning. or is all you arborist can do to make yourselfs feel better is to try and run down loggers i have seen more hacks in the arborist business and when there hacks it shows up alot more than when a few branches are hanging in the woods that could have been cuased by any number of things not just logging.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

murph that was said alot better than the last one with the condesending attitude. but i did say i would most likely drop with the lean, no wedging.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by stephenbullman _
> *thats enough now girls *



What he said.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

i quess i just make people becuase i have the nerve to open my loggers mounth in this sacred forum for arborist


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 25, 2004)

Hey David, did you notice 9 out of 10 of your posts include an  ?

Maybe some counciling would help. Have you seen the movie anger management?


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

hey mike did you ever think of taking math again becuase it is just the last (3) three post. thats only becuase everyone seems to enjoy attacking.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 25, 2004)

The sad part is, math was my best subject.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

you might be in trouble then


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

*Alright!*

So, who's got the brewskis???


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## lostone (Jul 25, 2004)

OK found the link I was trying to get at, the reason I used the term slabbing is he used the term slab out in his first post. barber chair


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## BigJohn (Jul 25, 2004)

Husky you need to calm down there buddy, thats that mentality Murph is talking about. You just said you would plunge cut. I believe he said explain. Maybe plunge cut is a term you saw earlier and your just going along with. It doesn't make me feel better to bash loggers. I just like to stir the hive. No grimmice on my face here I'm just having fun with ya You're just an easy target today.


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## glens (Jul 25, 2004)

In case anyone's wondering, I'm not husky372.

Actually, the way I read the original question was that there was a tree in an area which could accommodate it falling in any direction.&nbsp; As an exercise (perhaps?) the tree would be felled to the opposite direction from its lean.&nbsp; So what would be a good method to do so?

In that light, husky372 was correct, but didn't address the question, really.

In order to ensure the tree won't barber-chair while making the notch, simply make the notch shallower than "usual".&nbsp; Doing so will require more lift in the back cut but it will be somewhat easier lift (rather like using a longer lever vs. a short one).

There are many ways available to generate the lift.&nbsp; Wedges alone would likely be the most work, but it can be done.

If your feet are going to leave the ground anyway, you should probably drop some of the weight off the backside first and set a rope fairly high (try to guess the point where there is equal moving mass both above and below the attachment point; but at least no higher than the point where the stem can withstand the side load which will be generated).&nbsp; Start the back cut normally, but be sure it's perpendicular to the grain as it heads toward the notch, and insert wedges early and often.&nbsp; It's especially important to have the wedges go into a cut that's at right angles to the grain in this instance since there will be great pressure and you don't want the growth rings to separate because you're not at right angles to them.

Divide the work equally between the rope and wedges, stacking them as necessary, even using the removed notch as filler if required.&nbsp; That way, if the rope setup fails for any reason, at least the tree won't go over backwards, and if the wedge setup fails, (maybe) the rope will hold it.

Making a call as to how thick to leave the hinge is difficult sometimes.&nbsp; If you leave too little, there's a chance of it pulling out and dumping the tree backwards.&nbsp; If you leave too much, it aggravates the situation by requiring more force to bend it.&nbsp; The rule of thumb to leave 10% of the diameter at hinge height is usually a bit too excessive for my taste, but works well for this scenario.

I've also cut pockets and used bottle jacks in lieu of rope.&nbsp; The more a tree leans away from the desired fall, the more work it is to fell it.&nbsp; Sometimes it just isn't feasible.

Okay?

Glen


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 25, 2004)

Hi Butch, your welcome any time to come to Canuckland and likewise, I would like to spend some time being your groundy. Loggers are just glorified groundies anyway. LOL
However, we aren't as dumb as we look, although were not the brightest bulb on the tree either.
When things get slow in the bush, I also double as an arborist. Here is a pic of me showcasing my skills, doing a takedown against the lean with a line, however, my parner, also a logger, is dumber than a sack of hammers.
John


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## arboromega (Jul 25, 2004)

i learned how to use a chainsaw while thinning forest land for the state of wv. all of my old generations of family have been loggers. i was unaware of an arborist/logger feud till one was created on this post. one thing i read on this thread was that arborists dont love or know their chainsaws and i could not disagree more.
one thing i can say is if either of us dont use our knowledge and skills to cut a tre down safely, the tree will indesciminately kill a member of either profession.

what if there was a tree in a field with a lean and instead of cutting it down and arguing we all just had some beer and found a nice place to go fishing?


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## BigJohn (Jul 25, 2004)

Gypo is that picture a joke? Your not serious are you?


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## lostone (Jul 25, 2004)

Gypo, thanks for the pic it was exactly what I was getting at.


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## BigJohn (Jul 25, 2004)

Who is your ground man Best GM or his daddy?


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## Stumper (Jul 25, 2004)

Yikes! What are we so touchy about today guys? Husky 372-you are usually cooler in your posts. Mike you are usually..............just like today . Seriously, Ive logged a little and been an arborist most of my life. The jobs overlap because they involve chainsaws and trees but they are so different from each other that we ought to have mutual respect rather than animosity. My observation has been that the average logger is much more competent at accurately felling trees without ropes. The average "arborist" (aka treehacker with a pick-up) isn't competent at all. The real arborists are usual much better equipped (both in gear and in experience) to fell trees in tight places where inaccuracy would not only be inconvenient but extremely costly. Peace , my brothers!:angel:


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## Newfie (Jul 25, 2004)

Hey where's Guy???


He would say that we shouldn't cut the tree at all.


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## Newfie (Jul 25, 2004)

I guess one of us should.


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## Treeman14 (Jul 25, 2004)

Brian, you kill me.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

*Yah*

He's always going off-topic.


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## Stumper (Jul 25, 2004)

Teaching kids is always cool-(or at least teaching the ones who will try to learn is cool):angel:


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 25, 2004)

Hi RJ, coincidently, I just got back from fishing too. There's this pond about 500 yds. back of my place in the bush with Rainbows, so I just cooked one for my supper. It was a bit more red than the second one I released which was more silver. I caught them on a black knat and a flyrod. I just finished eating it, but I have had better fish in my time though. I think the wild trout are better eating and better fighting than the "put and take" ones.
John


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Butch,
> I was replying to AO's comment about going fishing.  Since that is exactly what I did this morning, I figured it was only appropriate to say so.  *




Hey, I wuz just yanking yur tail a bit.


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## lostone (Jul 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Yeah, it's cool. After 5 pages of arguing about dropping a tree with no obstacles, I figured it was time to derail this thread anyway.  *


THANK GOD, LOL


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

Hahahahahahaaaa!!!

Yah, lifes too short.


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

stumper i know i'm usually more composed in my post, but with all the logger bashing i was getting i quess i got a little hot under the collar.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

Loggers rock!!!


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## Husky372 (Jul 25, 2004)

your allright MB i dont care what they say about you


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2004)

Ha! Me, neither. 

The naysayers can _bite me._


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## a_lopa (Jul 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Yeah, it's cool. After 5 pages of arguing about dropping a tree with no obstacles, I figured it was time to derail this thread anyway.  *



yes it was getting a lttle carried away,gypo yes i think the small pan sized rainbows from the wild are good tucker,big trout are too oily.my dog likes em thou


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## SilverBlue (Jul 26, 2004)

Ahhh yer all nuts anyways... except for Brian, he's the only sane one here 

Gypo, now why would I be mad at you?


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 26, 2004)

i have personaly had some great fun felling 80 ft douglas firs with some of my logger mates and i have learned a lot from them..i have worked with a lot of arborists and very few had the levels of skills with a saw like a full time logger..like wise ive known loggers who get scared climbing a few steps into there truck


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## Newfie (Jul 26, 2004)

*"loggers who get scared climbing a few steps into there truck "* 

I make sure I tie in first.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 26, 2004)

I bet Gypo could have me turning monsters sideways, and I could have him clipping tops out, in no time a-tall.


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## Husky372 (Jul 26, 2004)

prefer my feet firmly placed on the ground


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 26, 2004)

Nobody looking over yur shoulder!!!


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 27, 2004)

Hi MB, I don't have the balls to do what you're doing in the picture. If you can do that, then you can do anything.
John


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## a_lopa (Jul 27, 2004)

rosewood n beech myrtle.get to it gypo


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## BigSawMan (Jul 27, 2004)

Man has this thread morphed, a day ago you all were fighting, and today, John's boradcasting Canadian logger tunes. I got a fix for this leaning tree problem, I have assessed all of the possibilities, cuttting it down, pulling it down, climbing it and cutting it up, and I have come to this conclusion: Get a D8 Cat out there and push the sonofab1tch down. Its loud, big, and has lots of power - why not?


Hey John, who sings that song? I like that tune.


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## Derek (Aug 1, 2004)

*barber chairing*

In my feild houses cars fences mrs Smith, are not the problem. If my tree goes the wrong way , im vapor and I would of killed my ground crew. my suggestion would be to make your release cut 2 inches BELOW and 2 inches more for every 2 foot that the tree is round. aim your face cut(scarf) in the direction you want it to fall. Your scarf should be 35 degrees for soft wood and 45 degrees for hard would any thing bigger than about 5 feet round make it 37. 
your rope is set high but solid and is getting pulled in the direction of fall. Your release cut needs to start - depending on how much side ways movment you need, un even holding wood is a great tool, theary being the thickest part of the holding wood will break last. MOST IMPORTANTLY dont use a winch only.the winch can pull it allright but once the tree lets go so does the winch's tension. if you had the oppertunity (space) use the truck to pull and keep driving, maintaining direction and reduceing the chance of "rolling" back the way of its lean.Cutting BELOW your scarf can greatly reduce the chances or barber chairing on trees that are pulled (or pushed by excervatiors)you simply have more wood to cut through most trees will chair at the half way point, cutting below - your 3/4 through. The tree will still fall OH and for Gods sake be carefull out there . Kind regards Derek


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## Stumper (Aug 1, 2004)

Easy guys, Derek is new here.


http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3686&highlight=Truck+pull


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 1, 2004)

How does making your back cut lower than your notch prevent barberchair???


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## Derek (Aug 1, 2004)

*cutting below notch*

Hi Mike, We get a tree here called stringy bark,very straight grain. Because we have to pull a lot away from power lines , even putting in a small notch in cutting above it they just split..
Next time your near a foggy bahtroom draw a picture of a very leaning tree with a small notch and realease cut above it you will see where it is going to spilt about half way. Mostley because of the weight at the top. Now draw one cutting below,notice how much more wood you had to cut,past 1\2 past the danger point. 
It works for me.......P.s a plunge or bore cut 6 in above notch, can also help but ive had saws jam in "stringys" theres that much tension in them, And thats not nesseseraly being towed. I hope someone eles comments on this tip. Stay safe .........Derek


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## Stumper (Aug 1, 2004)

Oz is surely a strange place-They have computers and the internet but can only draw in foggy W.C.s. 
Derek, low backcuts do have to be cut further in order to release-That is because the must split out instead of folding wood fibers. However, since they can only work via splitting they don't preclude splitting. Read that twice. You may be able to drop a lot of trees witthout a barberchair using low back cuts but when you get to a tree that just wants to pop you aren't safe. On heavy leaners borecut to a normal hinge then sever the back strap-that is the safest method.:angel:


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## Stumper (Aug 1, 2004)

Derek, What is the rainfall in your area? Do you have a wet and contrasting dry season? I noticed the brown ground between the trees and limited understory growth.


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## Derek (Aug 1, 2004)

*Cutting Below notch*

G'day folks, 
Stumper, I told you we are "a bit rough in the bush",I use the mirror after a shower straight after work. As I spend 8-10 hours a day in trees swaying around,it takes a while to stop swaying and get my land legs back. The small space doesen't let me fall to far...Very hard to forget my day. While its freash in my head i try to animate events I could of done differently or better.
When it comes to tring to explain somthing to others on the crew. I use a small magnetic drawing board!!! Hows that for :low teck".Weather here now is mid winter.massive frosts every day sure takes the color out of everything. Temp range last 8 months
has been 43 degeres c down to -12 c


You explained it a lot better than i did, can I blame my poor typing skills???


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## murphy4trees (Aug 2, 2004)

Are we talking about free-grain wood?
That is no growth rings... I heard years ago it breaks much easier than our temperate climate woods... Can rip a portion of the stump out of the ground etc..


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## a_lopa (Aug 2, 2004)

some is carrot like, others hold on to the last.it wouldnt be much diffrent murph,mountain ash here slabs up when falling big danger.species that you do ''up there'' grow diffrent ''down here''most is unmillable which is a shame.poley eucs are a bit scarey up top


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## Derek (Aug 2, 2004)

*chairing at height*

Three times ive had stringey barks chair on me while at height.
The problem with useing bore cut is that the branch is generaly to small. How do the pros handel this situation??? regards Derek


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## a_lopa (Aug 2, 2004)

i would cut good saftey cuts so the holding wood is a small square shape and use a bigger saw than a 20t.a good question for graeme,he always climbs with a 46.a guy that works with me uses a 365 as his smallest climbing saw.small saws can put you too close to the action IMO


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## Derek (Aug 2, 2004)

*chairs at height*

Welcome back aussie loper..
Thats a great idea I might take the bucket up next week and give it a go.. Buckets are great for experimenal cuts (Within reason) 
Stringy bark trees bark have been used from burying people to building houses. ive used it for tyre protection in rough terrain its increadible stuff.
the only problems i see are the branch breaking before realese cut is made. getting a bigger saw than 020 (ms 200t) up there and useing it . only once have i had a stringy tear and go to ground DIDENT cut the side fibers enough. My helmet landed 10 m behind me. I was very winded by blow i took against the tree. I dident get to finish the tree. The bark burn on my face was pretty sore to. 
Point being that i do cut the sides and somtimes do a whole series of cuts below my scarf just in case.
On the point of using a bigger saw, that would proberly stop the 020 clogging up so much. Do you get stringy barks were your working?? P.S what is approch limits of 500kvthanks and remember to be carefull up there.. P.S.S how many zaps ,bites or punches do (did) you go through.. Derek


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## Derek (Aug 2, 2004)

*wheres Graham*

aussie loppa P.S.S.S i cant get through to his site. Any thing you can do. mabey you could pass my details along to him. would love to touch base on big euqs.603 different types in oz.
am i alowed to post my email here????
admin will delete if not
[email protected] bye Derek


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## a_lopa (Aug 2, 2004)

i cant really remember the aproach limits.i always treat electricity with extreme caution,a guy working with me stood on a cross arm that had been wired up in wrong spot and had his balls,foot blown off(22kv). so ive got respect for it.around the 500 i was always getting tingles off gums leaf.plenty of yellow box,messmate around my way,but more swamp gum,ash,blackwood.i love the timber up your way and wouldnt piss on the wood here compared to alot of species over the divide,very very strong wood.what are you chipping with?


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## Derek (Aug 2, 2004)

*the mulcher*

hi aussie loppa
Sorry to here about your mate on the 22s. That could make you want to get away from power lines forever.
Know much about Messmate?? has it allways been here?? Or is it some sort of cross between box (yellow white or brown) and stringy barks. Our messmate wont burn with an oxy.
Vermeer 1000 bc for the small stuff. we need truck loads of it , quite often we need to make "pads for the mullcher to work on. we need to be very concious about fuel reduction fires here a devestating. 
Still havent got my resizing done yet.

heres a snap or the RT400 Regards Derek


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## Derek (Aug 2, 2004)

*pre empting my "UPING"*

SORRY TO ALL FOR THE SIZE
go have a coffee while it comes through, it really is an awsome machine 400 hp two joysticks and can through a rail 50 meters if you set it wrong. Have more shots but promise not to send till i get sorted out...... It will chew through a log 6 -7 feet high!!!


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## a_lopa (Aug 2, 2004)

go to microsoft.com and put in image resizer in search and download,then its easy from then on,it doesnt worry me the pics are big,just the guys on dial up internet.yes fires are a big problem.the messmate is similar looking to a yellow which is premium fire wood.do you get any silver top?


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## Derek (Aug 2, 2004)

*silver top*

dont know it by that name does it burn. Ill look it up later. 
I know there very close, have you tried to burn messmate by its self?


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