# powerlines



## mattfr12 (Apr 23, 2010)

what are your guys thoughts on working around power lines.

how ive always done it was i cut them down as long as they where not grown through unisulated high tension you know the ones on the top of the poles.

i have never had a problem working around the lower insulated lines a tree i took down 2 days ago was grown through the botom wire. i just cut them on each side causing them to fall out.

is this crazy or severarly dangerous as i have done it for alot of the companies i work for. when i do this im in a fiberglass boom on my bucket truck.

what do you guys think? should i change my ways?


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## lone wolf (Apr 23, 2010)

are you using a hydraulic stick saw made of fiberglass and linemans gloves?


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## mattfr12 (Apr 23, 2010)

i do use a fiberglass pole saw hydralic one that hooks into my bucket.


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## lone wolf (Apr 23, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> i do use a fiberglass pole saw hydralic one that hooks into my bucket.



i cut right through a 220 line with one no gloves it saved my ass.


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## pdqdl (Apr 23, 2010)

Yep, that's probably safe alright.

But the fact that you have to ask means that you are both untraind and unqualified to work near powerlines. Don't worry about it, I'm not trained or qualified either. 

When I am near high voltage, I call the power company. I have lost a number of jobs in the last couple of years because the silly bastards won't come do the work they say they will, either. Oh well! I'm not dead yet, either.

When I am near 240 or less (running from the pole to the house), I don't worry about the electricity, I worry about pulling the box off the house.

A few years ago I was in my fiberglass bucket truck, violating the 10' rule, thinking I was safe. After all, those are just low voltage, insulated lines, right? That single little uninsulated top wire only 15" above the insulated wires must be a ground wire or something, because high voltage always comes down the line in 3 wires right?

Nope, not at all! When I accidentally swept a little green switch across that top wire, I felt a prominent tingle from the electricity. I was clearly electrified for 1/2 second, and it might have been fatal to me, or possibly someone touching the truck. 

It turns out that it was a single phase primary serving the neighborhood, and probably had 7,000 volts on it, directly connected to my hand with a green stick of elm tree.

*Ooops. Won't do that again!* Let the guys trained for that work do the branches in the wires.

Yes! Change your ways, before you start logging in at the fifth forum, instead of the first one. Read all about it here: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=133775


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 23, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> what are your guys thoughts on working around power lines.
> 
> how ive always done it was i cut them down as long as they where not grown through unisulated high tension you know the ones on the top of the poles.
> 
> ...


I think you should take a EHAP course , bottom line its just one :censored: up and your bacon ... Call the underground markout # they can assist you in connection to up and coming courses


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## plowboy (Apr 23, 2010)

*richmond va.*

guy today got fried on the job only 15 min. was subposted to be exsperes i just stay back 15 ft my self


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## Rftreeman (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's my thoughts, watch this (WARNING, IT'S GRAPHIC) 


That could be your someday............


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## johninky (Apr 23, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought only uninsulated wires on utility poles carry electricity and the insulated lines are telephone/cable TV lines.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 23, 2010)

johninky said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I thought only uninsulated wires on utility poles carry electricity and the insulated lines are telephone/cable TV lines.



What  are you serious , I guess you never looked at transmission lines up close


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## Jumper (Apr 23, 2010)

I would not trust the insulation on electric wires for a minute. Only way yould get me near power lines would be if they are switched off by the hydro guys, or maybe with proper training, rubber gloves, sleeves and overshoes.


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## pdqdl (Apr 24, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> Here's my thoughts, watch this (WARNING, IT'S GRAPHIC)
> 
> 
> That could be your someday............



WOW !

I have never seen anything like that. Notice that all the muscles in the poor fellow went into total tetany. He went stiff as a board, even after he fell. "Graphic" is not an adequate description. That was morbidly graphic; I think "grisly" would be the word of preference here.

Much like a lightning strike on an airplane, notice that the RR car seemed to dissipate the entire shock without a problem.


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## pdqdl (Apr 24, 2010)

johninky said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I thought only uninsulated wires on utility poles carry electricity and the insulated lines are telephone/cable TV lines.



Ok! Here is the correction!

WRONG! Every ampere of electricity you ever enjoyed in your life came to you through insulated wires. ALL the wires are insulated after they are stepped down in voltage, as delivered to the user from the transformer.

I have swatted old 3-phase insulated wires (probably carrying 480 volts) with falling branches, and the insulation was old and falling off. The wires crossed and burned off the insulation and blew the local circuit after the wires got glowing red hot. If you were careless and connected a branch to that wire with one you were holding on to, it would probably have been a very unpleasant ending.


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## lone wolf (Apr 24, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> WOW !
> 
> I have never seen anything like that. Notice that all the muscles in the poor fellow went into total tetany. He went stiff as a board, even after he fell. "Graphic" is not an adequate description. That was morbidly graphic; I think "grisly" would be the word of preference here.
> 
> Much like a lightning strike on an airplane, notice that the RR car seemed to dissipate the entire shock without a problem.



I have and i can tell you it will get you, think and pay attention don't have the chipper running so you have communications open ,watch aluminum poles forget about when it is wet out and don't think you know everything.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 24, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Ok! Here is the correction!
> 
> WRONG! Every ampere of electricity you ever enjoyed in your life came to you through insulated wires. ALL the wires are insulated after they are stepped down in voltage, as delivered to the user from the transformer.
> 
> I have swatted old 3-phase insulated wires (probably carrying 480 volts) with falling branches, and the insulation was old and falling off. The wires crossed and burned off the insulation and blew the local circuit after the wires got glowing red hot. If you were careless and connected a branch to that wire with one you were holding on to, it would probably have been a very unpleasant ending.



Actually no, the service drops have merely a protective sheath that isolates the two hots from the ground neutral. It is against law for non Qualified personal to get within ten foot of any overhead energized conductors. I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 24, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> What  are you serious , I guess you never looked at transmission lines up close



Transmission lines are those that usually are explained as carrying minimum 134 kv and run ungrounded from generation or nuclear to feed sub station. These wires have minimum separations greater than any overhead conductors. I was working on 500 kv lines with fifteen foot minimum separation these lines can arc and turn you into a human spark plug:monkey:
Sometimes 69 kv running from one sub to another are referred to as transmission too


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## PaulPollard (Apr 24, 2010)

Never had an experience with electricity and tree work myself but have seen a few incidents. The service drops to the house are about 240 volts and rated for about 100 amps or whatever the fuse box - that is plenty to kill you. The guy I was working with had a handsaw and fiberglass ladder hacking into a cedar hedge and POP! - so loud a neighbor 6 houses down asked if everything was OK. There was a puff of smoke and he was frozen for a second. He said he didn't get a shock but the handsaw was cooked - burnt steel and parts of the wooden handle were smoked. I think it might have even been a bit wet or in the morning? I think he got zapped myself.

Another job with a willow tree about 25 feet away at the base from a single primary running down the street and a 1/4 inch branch 4 feet long - a twig - falling from about 20 feet broke it. Thing is we didn't even know until the homeowners started showing up, the whole street was out. It broke at the pole and it was obvious why after looking at it, the whole attachment was falling apart and rusted out. We watched the hydro guys fix it in about 10 minutes.

I've also seen a tree grown right into a live house drop with burn marks everywhere.

I've only done line clearance a few times but yeah, you should be wearing lineman's gloves and following the limits - they are pasted on every truck that works around lines as far as I know. The secondary and primary lines that usually run along the backyard property lines in suburbia are the ones you just won't get a second chance with if you make good contact!

Maybe ropensaddle knows the correct terms. Also, weather stripping is often mistaken for insulation, you can see it peeling off.


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## ddhlakebound (Apr 24, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Actually no, the service drops have merely a protective sheath that isolates the two hots from the ground neutral. It is against law for non Qualified personal to get within ten foot of any overhead energized conductors. I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.



I could be wrong, but I interpreted pdqdl's post as referring to the old open secondary low voltage systems, which have mostly been replaced by tri-plex service drops. 

I looked at a house a week or so ago still being fed from the old open secondary system. Hopefully (for the HO's sake) when they drop it so I can do the job the utility will change it out to a triplex service. 

The open secondaries are only weathercoated, and definately not insulated, but the tri-plex is insulated. I've seen the tri-plex severed from rubbing on limbs, and I've seen a pole saw head penetrate the insulation on a tri-plex drop (with a big bright flash and a melted saw head...my old partner was not bitten, thanks to a fairly new and clean fiberglass Jameson pole.)

Around here the utilities will not do any trimming around low voltage. They'll drop the line so a contractor can do it safely, or we just have to work around the low voltage. 

I've done a few 7.6k clearances for people who didn't want the utility trimmers touching their trees since I left line clearance, but there have been many, many others I wouldn't touch until the utility gave me enough clearance. Had to check all the nooks and crannies in my wallet to find my EHAP card, but it's still there. Even having it, I know that trained is only half the equation....still supposed to be authorized to work near the HV.


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## pdqdl (Apr 24, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Actually no, the service drops have merely a protective sheath that isolates the two hots from the ground neutral. It is against law for non Qualified personal to get within ten foot of any overhead energized conductors. I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.



AHHH! Nit-picker! I knew you would be weighing in on this thread before too long. Welcome to the thread. 

All of the amps that get delivered still are going through the insulated hot wires to the end user. I wasn't trying to say that the service lines and secondaries are not dangerous, I was trying to point out the error of considering an insulated wire to be "non-electrical", as suggested in one of the previous posts. Around here, it is pretty common to have insulated wires running pole-to-pole in 2-3 single strands, rather than as a twisted single line.

***********************************************
What do the regulations say about private contractors with adequate experience (like yourself), who are not working for a utility or other "approved" contractor? Is that a self-regulating sort of thing, or can the utility company come by and tell you to get out of the work zone?

I imagine everybody leaves it alone until disaster strikes, then the government comes in handing out fines.


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## pdqdl (Apr 24, 2010)

My thoughts highlighted in *boldface*



ddhlakebound said:


> I could be wrong, but I interpreted pdqdl's post as referring to the old open secondary low voltage systems, which have mostly been replaced by tri-plex service drops. *Thank you; that is exactly what I was referring to.*
> 
> I looked at a house a week or so ago still being fed from the old open secondary system. Hopefully (for the HO's sake) when they drop it so I can do the job the utility will change it out to a triplex service.
> 
> ...


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## ropensaddle (Apr 24, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> AHHH! Nit-picker! I knew you would be weighing in on this thread before too long. Welcome to the thread.
> 
> All of the amps that get delivered still are going through the insulated hot wires to the end user. I wasn't trying to say that the service lines and secondaries are not dangerous, I was trying to point out the error of considering an insulated wire to be "non-electrical", as suggested in one of the previous posts. Around here, it is pretty common to have insulated wires running pole-to-pole in 2-3 single strands, rather than as a twisted single line.
> 
> ...



More than once I have seen cable tv or telephone wires carrying 7200 volt momentarily as well as guy wires anything connected to a power pole can have enough current to kill you at any moment. IE your having a complacent day a field and brush the overhead telephone wire at the same moment a drunk two miles away t-bones a pole on the same circuit and causes the primary to contact the phone line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PS: I have taken trees down near lines in my private business but only if the power company has refused the customer. All the utility men know my work capabilities so I have no problem with the you can't do that syndrome.


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## pdqdl (Apr 24, 2010)

I had to wait 3 months for KCP&L to take the top out of a beautiful locust tree last year. It was arching gracefully over the primaries in the back yard.

We kept calling them, two weeks later they would tell us that there was nothing wrong with the tree, and they weren't worried about it. We kept telling them the property owner was removing the tree, and they were required to do the trimming over the primaries.

THEN...they seemed to keep developing "scheduling problems". They eventually bucked up and did the work.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 24, 2010)

PaulPollard said:


> Never had an experience with electricity and tree work myself but have seen a few incidents. The service drops to the house are about 240 volts and rated for about 100 amps or whatever the fuse box - that is plenty to kill you. The guy I was working with had a handsaw and fiberglass ladder hacking into a cedar hedge and POP! - so loud a neighbor 6 houses down asked if everything was OK. There was a puff of smoke and he was frozen for a second. He said he didn't get a shock but the handsaw was cooked - burnt steel and parts of the wooden handle were smoked. I think it might have even been a bit wet or in the morning? I think he got zapped myself.
> 
> Another job with a willow tree about 25 feet away at the base from a single primary running down the street and a 1/4 inch branch 4 feet long - a twig - falling from about 20 feet broke it. Thing is we didn't even know until the homeowners started showing up, the whole street was out. It broke at the pole and it was obvious why after looking at it, the whole attachment was falling apart and rusted out. We watched the hydro guys fix it in about 10 minutes.
> 
> ...



It can take as little as 1/10th of one amp in 12 volt dc to kill a human. Minimum separation is the term your thinking of, or minimum approach it defines how close qualified personal can be to varying voltage without protective measures such as blankets and cover up materials in place.


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## RacerX (Apr 24, 2010)

PaulPollard said:


> Never had an experience with electricity and tree work myself but have seen a few incidents. The service drops to the house are about 240 volts and rated for about 100 amps or whatever the fuse box - that is plenty to kill you.




Actually there is no protection on the pole side of the drop other than the primary protection for the transformer. The potential fault current is many times greater than 100 amps.


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## Bermie (Apr 24, 2010)

Like this thread, some good stuff!

I don't mess around, inside 10'...call the power company. I've had to wait 2 months to get to one job and its only going to take about an hour to do the worst bit...but the power has to be turned off, 25 houses will be out...in a wealthy neighborhood, takes three weeks to do all the notifications by mail...

Better safe than sorry, my liability insurance doesn't cover electrical mishaps!!


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## Rftreeman (Apr 24, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> It is against law for non Qualified personal to get within ten foot of any overhead energized conductors. I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.


Me too, do you ever get people in the business and know you are cert asking you to clear out power lines for them..


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## mattfr12 (Apr 24, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Yep, that's probably safe alright.
> 
> But the fact that you have to ask means that you are both untraind and unqualified to work near powerlines. Don't worry about it, I'm not trained or qualified either.
> 
> ...



asking questions is a good thing if you know the answer or not. can keep you from getting killed? thiers an old saying better safe than sorry. i like to live by that.

i have completed courses held by Ducane light And Alleghny Power our local compaines.

but my friend being fried by 13000 volts a few days ago kinda got me thinking.


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 24, 2010)

I think for asplunger's great hourly rate it seems to just be good sense to have them take care of all work to the bells , the only problem seems to be scheduling, they say monday show up sunday then you have the HO in your arse saying there is 1/2 tree laying in front of the house or the other side there three days late , ya never know .....


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 24, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Transmission lines are those that usually are explained as carrying minimum 134 kv and run ungrounded from generation or nuclear to feed sub station. These wires have minimum separations greater than any overhead conductors. I was working on 500 kv lines with fifteen foot minimum separation these lines can arc and turn you into a human spark plug:monkey:
> Sometimes 69 kv running from one sub to another are referred to as transmission too



Yea 69 wires are also transmission even if they follow the poles through the neighborhood , its funny that you mention them , My buddy was running a hydro axe mower and came in contact with them , the machine was an entire loss and he was fine never touched felt a little tingle but thats it


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## PaulPollard (Apr 24, 2010)

That's interesting RacerX and yeah, like someone else mentioned lines, cables and trees can be energized when they are not supposed to be. Along with the primaries and secondaries is usually the telco. and cable service lines in about the biggest bundle and lowest on the line. They are not supposed to be energized other than the 50v or whatever the phone companies are running, plus all of the power supplies being installed for backup...there is a lot of stuff going on in places no doubt, plenty of room for things to start finding the path of least resistance!


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 24, 2010)

PaulPollard said:


> That's interesting RacerX and yeah, like someone else mentioned lines, cables and trees can be energized when they are not supposed to be. Along with the primaries and secondaries is usually the telco. and cable service lines in about the biggest bundle and lowest on the line. They are not supposed to be energized other than the 50v or whatever the phone companies are running, plus all of the power supplies being installed for backup...there is a lot of stuff going on in places no doubt, plenty of room for things to start finding the path of least resistance!



Telephone bundles can carry enough juice to make you pizz your undies and make your heart skip a few beats...


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## Rftreeman (Apr 24, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Telephone bundles can carry enough juice to make you pizz your undies and make your heart skip a few beats *and/or kill you*...




fixed it for ya.......


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 24, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> fixed it for ya.......



Yea if your a pansy


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## Rftreeman (Apr 24, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea if your a pansy



so are you admitting that you're a pansy.......:check:


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## ropensaddle (Apr 24, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea 69 wires are also transmission even if they follow the poles through the neighborhood , its funny that you mention them , My buddy was running a hydro axe mower and came in contact with them , the machine was an entire loss and he was fine never touched felt a little tingle but thats it



I knew a guy that got hit by 69 direct and lived but he had two silver dollar holes out both feet. We called him sparky


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## treemandan (Apr 24, 2010)

I recently did this one. I did climb over the wires and drop a few in the street but most was lowered over towards the left. Its been skinned up pretty much in the pics, there were some that got pretty close to the transformer.


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## treemandan (Apr 24, 2010)

Though I rarely work around wires I did this one because it looked OK and it still was a big chance I took. 
There was one limb that when lowered barely cleared the transformer. I had the groundies lock the porty until the limb stopped swinging so they wouldn't be touching the rope if the limb made contact. I had 2 ropes on this particular limb so there were 2 porties.
Everything else came out quick and the tree was pretty easy. I kept my top rope in a position where if I slipped I would be pulled away from the wires. In all honesty I probably did stay at least 10 feet away from the wires the whole time myself but some of the limbs didn't.
Coming into contact is scary enough but also if you bring a wire down the people on the ground are in danger. That might mean not just the crew but anyone around.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 24, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Though I rarely work around wires I did this one because it looked OK and it still was a big chance I took.
> There was one limb that when lowered barely cleared the transformer. I had the groundies lock the porty until the limb stopped swinging so they wouldn't be touching the rope if the limb made contact. I had 2 ropes on this particular limb so there were 2 porties.
> Everything else came out quick and the tree was pretty easy. I kept my top rope in a position where if I slipped I would be pulled away from the wires. In all honesty I probably did stay at least 10 feet away from the wires the whole time myself but some of the limbs didn't.
> Coming into contact is scary enough but also if you bring a wire down the people on the ground are in danger. That might mean not just the crew but anyone around.



You did well, that tree appeared to have overhang it is definitely not real easy especially with little or no clearance training if that's the case. You may want to have them clear the next one but looks like you did a good job


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## Jumper (Apr 24, 2010)

There is a lot of public service announcements going on here extolling 7 metres (yards) as being the safe distance from power lines.

www.wherestheline.ca


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## mattfr12 (Apr 25, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I recently did this one. I did climb over the wires and drop a few in the street but most was lowered over towards the left. Its been skinned up pretty much in the pics, there were some that got pretty close to the transformer.




nice work on the tree any other day i wouldnt blink at working around the lines but the guy i know getting electricuted really bugged me. just made me think about how close i been getting to them.

i really like the upper class comunity that have all the electricity under ground. a town in pa called sewickly most if not all power even to the houses is under ground.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> nice work on the tree any other day i wouldnt blink at working around the lines but the guy i know getting electricuted really bugged me. just made me think about how close i been getting to them.
> 
> i really like the upper class comunity that have all the electricity under ground. a town in pa called sewickly most if not all power even to the houses is under ground.



Ice storm 2000 We had total black out twice as two separate and devastating storms hit a coulple weeks apart. In all the chaos one of our leaders said he was going to fix the problem by putting power underground in a short time lol. Me and my boss who had managed the power company some 25 years were loao because it took 40 years to get the power we have above ground installed and this guy thought he had the solution he should have checked with someone in the field before making a public statement Many people like the thought of underground so their trees wont have to be trimmed but the truth is; it usually kills a fairly high % of trees near underground construction of power. It is also bad expensive.


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## brnchbrkr (Apr 25, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> what are your guys thoughts on working around power lines.
> 
> how ive always done it was i cut them down as long as they where not grown through unisulated high tension you know the ones on the top of the poles.
> 
> ...





You may enjoy reading a short story about Guido, posted by Mapleman!

http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=98183&highlight=guido

http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=98902&highlight=guido


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## PaulPollard (Apr 25, 2010)

I read not too long ago about a crane that got energized - might not have been doing tree work - but the first guy who ran up to the crane and touched it was killed instantly. Guess he was watching his operator buddy getting cooked inside and was planning on just pulling them out???

You don't want anyone touching or leaning on your bucket truck or chipper when your swinging around lines, even though the boom is usually rated for 50Kv or something it all changes with a bit of moisture or a short through something. I am sure more than one tree worker on the ground has been killed this way.


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## B-Edwards (Apr 25, 2010)

If you don't know what the wires are (tele, cable. electric ) treat every wire like its 7200 or higher. But as was said in the first of this thread if you don't know you might want to let it alone until trained. Just takes one oops and you wont have to worry anymore. Not trying to be a jerk but it really is that simple. I have almost died several times doing right of way during ice storms and Hugo. Every single time it would have been my fault and it was not the electricity. Made me alot better at the work but some aren't lucky enough to survive an oops


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## lone wolf (Apr 25, 2010)

B-Edwards said:


> If you don't know what the wires are (tele, cable. electric ) treat every wire like its 7200 or higher. But as was said in the first of this thread if you don't know you might want to let it alone until trained. Just takes one oops and you wont have to worry anymore. Not trying to be a jerk but it really is that simple. I have almost died several times doing right of way during ice storms and Hugo. Every single time it would have been my fault and it was not the electricity. Made me alot better at the work but some aren't lucky enough to survive an oops


it is not worth it if you cant get a bucket in have them put a shield on the line or do something.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 25, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Actually no, *the service drops have merely a protective sheath that isolates the two hots from the ground neutral*. It is against law for non Qualified personal to get within ten foot of any overhead energized conductors. I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.





*sigh* 

Here we go again. It's become glaringly obvious that the power industry is doing a *PISS POOR* job of educating line trimmers, and *even electrical power workers*.

I say that because I keep coming across this line of COMPLETE BULL####!!!!!

I normally don't use that kind of language, but this just flat PISSES ME OFF!

*IT IS INSULATION!* If its purpose is to keep electricity from flowing where it's not wanted, THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF INSULATION!!!!!!

Apparently some people have the idea that "insulation" means "something that will keep you safe from electricity".

*BULL####!!!* 

*STUPID BULL####!!!!*


The ONLY thing that will keep you safe is not doing stupid things, and sometimes that doesn't even work!


If it's a cover over the wire to keep electricity from flowing between them, IT IS INSULATION.



On a thread a few years ago, I presented LINK AFTER LINK to POWER INDUSTRY SOURCES, showing that triplex service drops are *INSULATED*. *NOT* "weather coated".

All of the so-called "experts", including arborists who are certified to work on high voltage, and even linemen, stubbornly and STUPIDLY refused to read the FACTS I posted, and continued to insist that service drops have merely a "weather coating" on them. This is FLAT WRONG and very DANGEROUS.

I'm not going to go back and do that all again, but anybody who wants to can check it out for himself. You can check the thread I linked above, or you can do some searching yourself. I'll give you one link to get you started.

Here:


Service Drop/Cable



> A service drop or service cable connects the transformer to the weatherhead or downpipe of a home or business. Service drops are the overhead lines that connect an aerial transformer to a weatherhead. Service cables are underground lines that connect an aerial or padmount transformer to a downpipe via an underground route. *Both the service drop and cable are insulated wires.*




That doesn't mean they are SAFE to work around. It's electricity. It's not safe!

But there's nothing MORE dangerous than WRONG IDEAS about dangerous things like electricity.


Here, for those who have functional brains:

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=insulation+service+drop+&kgs=1&kls=0

http://www.altavista.com/web/result...sidential+service+drop+electrical&kgs=1&kls=0


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## RacerX (Apr 25, 2010)

People really believe that the stuff surrounding the service drop conductors is not insulation?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 25, 2010)

RacerX said:


> People really believe that the stuff surrounding the service drop conductors is not insulation?



Yep. Apparently that's what *some* in the industry are teaching!


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## treemandan (Apr 25, 2010)

Hell, one time this jackass sends out a limb and take the service drop down. He ripped it off the house. The Bawss has us put it back up. He was complaining how much it would cost him to fix it if he called the right people to do it. I should have quit right then and there.
One time I ripped a service drop off a house on one of my own jobs, actually I was a sub for another company. It was totally my fault and I called the power company and went home.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 25, 2010)

RacerX said:


> People really believe that the stuff surrounding the service drop conductors is not insulation?


it may be insulation but that doesn't mean it's safe to handle without the proper tools and PPE, all it takes is a pinhole and as little as 1/10 of an amp and you're dead, that cover is more for keeping the weather off the wire than for protection from getting you fried...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 25, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> it may be insulation but that doesn't mean it's safe to handle without the proper tools and PPE,




Never said it was. Nobody should ever consider power lines to be SAFE. 


But safety is a relative term. Trimming branches around a service drop is a lot less dangerous than trimming branches around 7kv lines, and trimming branches around 7 kV lines for an experienced, trained, certified arborist is a lot less dangerous than for Joe Homeowner. The arborist can do it, and reasonably expect to home at the end of the day. The homeowner should NEVER attempt it. Given the cluelessness of many people, most homeowners should not attempt to trim branches around a service drop, either. I don't have any problem doing it. I know what's involved.

It's like felling trees. I would NEVER attempt to fell a 48: DBH leaner over a house. It's not safe for me - I don't have enough training and experience, and I don't have the right equipment. I'll pass that on to the pros. 

Now, a 24" DBH straight tree with an open drop zone? Sure, I'll do that.

Is it SAFE for me? No, it's not safe. Neither is it perfectly safe for a certified faller. It's not perfectly safe for ANYBODY. Felling trees is a dangerous job. Always.

But it's an ACCEPTABLE level of risk for me to fell that 24 incher. It's reasonable. The 48? No way.





Rftreeman said:


> all it takes is a pinhole and as little as 1/10 of an amp and you're dead,




Yep. (Though, to be picky, the figure usually given is a quarter of an amp.)




Rftreeman said:


> that cover is more for keeping the weather off the wire than for protection from getting you fried...




Nope.It's there to keep the two hots and the neutral from shorting. Think about what would happen if the neutral were in direct electrical contact with the hot wires, or the hot wires with each other. Since they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, they are electrically opposite, just like + and - on your car battery.

Wrap those three together with no insulation and you'll have a quick kaboom!

It's *also* there for human protection. Since service drops are often more easily human accessible than the high voltage stuff, they need to be insulated. It's not perfect protection, but it's a whale of a lot better than bare hot wire! But because it's not considered SAFE, access to the service drop is restricted. For example, you aren't supposed to have a surface drop running over a rooftop where people could walk into it. It has to be out of reach under ordinary conditions. So, for example, the downpipe can be at the edge of a flat roof, but not in the middle, unless it is high enough to get the drop up above human contact.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 25, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Never said it was. Nobody should ever consider power lines to be SAFE.
> 
> 
> But safety is a relative term. Trimming branches around a service drop is a lot less dangerous than trimming branches around 7kv lines, and trimming branches around 7 kV lines for an experienced, trained, certified arborist is a lot less dangerous than for Joe Homeowner. The arborist can do it, and reasonably expect to home at the end of the day. The homeowner should NEVER attempt it. Given the cluelessness of many people, most homeowners should not attempt to trim branches around a service drop, either. I don't have any problem doing it. I know what's involved.
> ...


I'm not going to argue, I'll keep my training in mind and stay alive, your preachings can get someone killed....


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## beowulf343 (Apr 25, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> it may be insulation but that doesn't mean it's safe to handle without the proper tools and PPE, all it takes is a pinhole and as little as 1/10 of an amp and you're dead, that cover is more for keeping the weather off the wire than for protection from getting you fried...





Rftreeman said:


> I'm not going to argue, I'll keep my training in mind and stay alive, your preachings can get someone killed....



Not that it means anything, but as a former row worker and certified to work around power, i agree. I've seen that insulation rubbed off by a tree or scraped by a pole saw. Power doesn't always need to be feared, but it's when you don't respect it that it will bite you.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Here we go again. It's become glaringly obvious that the power industry is doing a *PISS POOR* job of educating line trimmers, and *even electrical power workers*.
> 
> ...



Welp, the man who told me it was a mere weather coating was the manager of a large power company with many certificates and more training than I, so I believed him. Also; why is it always cracked, I mean should not a good insulation remain pliable? How is thinking it is not safe to touch dangerous; I figure the other way of thinking dangerous.


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## Ertreesurgeon (Apr 25, 2010)

ok guys.. 
in this area i can call myself an expert. i have been doing powerline clearance for 11 years. i work for asplundh and thats all we do. the triplex that goes to the house is 240v. the wires have a coating on them that keeps them seperated from each other. however time, squirels and rubbing against trees can expose the wire inside. it does not matter about the amount of electricity in a wire its the amps that cause the heart to stop. thats the flow of electricity. it only takes 1/10 of an amp to cause heart fibrullation. the wires from pole to pole go up in voltage as they get higher on the pole. first is either bell telephone or cable were not always concerned with those, but if 5 spans down the line theres a tree on the wire and its contacting a high voltage line it will energize them. ive been shocked thru them before. minimum separation for those lines is do not touch. next is your secondary wire, which are either bundled or open wire. theyre the ones the triplexes run off of. these are the same voltage as the triplex. beware of the open wire secondaries - if you get your pole clip in them or smack two of them together the lines will spark (or more times than not - blow the transformer). next above that is your primary voltage line. it can be single phase, 4,000 volts, 13,200 volts or 34,000 volts. minimum separation for these lines (if youre not a certified electrical worker) is at least 10 feet, if you are certified then 2'4" and 2'9". this electricity will go through branches and pole clips (wet, dirty). it doesnt matter if you are using a hydraulic pole saw from a lift truck, if the hydraulic fluid is not rated for work around electrical conductors, it's no good. the boom truck should be inspected every year to work around electrical conductors. electricity can go through dirty equipment, due to the minerals in dirt. electricty tries to find the fastest path to ground, with the least resistance. if there is a tree near a high bvoltage line call the local power company & they can get their tree service to give you ANSI clearance to make it safe for you at no cost. they'll leave the debris laying for the contractor to clean up. this is how it works in my region - i'm not certain about others. if you are not sure about these things, just stay away from conductors. i've had co-workers severely burned & killed. if you have any questions about these lines, just email and ask me. configuration on poles changes from region to region - so some things might be different. ***about the insulation on the wires - i've seen demonstrations where they poke a hole in the insulation with a needle & cook a hotdog through an insulated lineman's glove - and you can't see a pinhole***


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> But safety is a relative term. Trimming branches around a service drop is a lot less dangerous than trimming branches around 7kv lines, and trimming branches around 7 kV lines for an experienced, trained, certified arborist is a lot less dangerous than for Joe Homeowner.


It is my belief that service drops are more dangerous to human life because of the complacency exhibited right here in your post. Also;they are easily accessed by people like you that can reach them. It is never the less illegal for you if you are not qualified in line clearance. I have trimmed more burning trees than I care to remember and yes they were dangerous, staying out of the path of least resistance was what kept me alive.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

Ertreesurgeon said:


> ok guys..
> in this area i can call myself an expert. i have been doing powerline clearance for 11 years. i work for asplundh and thats all we do. the triplex that goes to the house is 240v. the wires have a coating on them that keeps them seperated from each other. however time, squirels and rubbing against trees can expose the wire inside. it does not matter about the amount of electricity in a wire its the amps that cause the heart to stop. thats the flow of electricity. it only takes 1/10 of an amp to cause heart fibrullation. the wires from pole to pole go up in voltage as they get higher on the pole. first is either bell telephone or cable were not always concerned with those, but if 5 spans down the line theres a tree on the wire and its contacting a high voltage line it will energize them. ive been shocked thru them before. minimum separation for those lines is do not touch. next is your secondary wire, which are either bundled or open wire. theyre the ones the triplexes run off of. these are the same voltage as the triplex. beware of the open wire secondaries - if you get your pole clip in them or smack two of them together the lines will spark (or more times than not - blow the transformer). next above that is your primary voltage line. it can be single phase, 4,000 volts, 13,200 volts or 34,000 volts. minimum separation for these lines (if youre not a certified electrical worker) is at least 10 feet, if you are certified then 2'4" and 2'9". this electricity will go through branches and pole clips (wet, dirty). it doesnt matter if you are using a hydraulic pole saw from a lift truck, if the hydraulic fluid is not rated for work around electrical conductors, it's no good. the boom truck should be inspected every year to work around electrical conductors. electricity can go through dirty equipment, due to the minerals in dirt. electricty tries to find the fastest path to ground, with the least resistance. if there is a tree near a high bvoltage line call the local power company & they can get their tree service to give you ANSI clearance to make it safe for you at no cost. they'll leave the debris laying for the contractor to clean up. this is how it works in my region - i'm not certain about others. if you are not sure about these things, just stay away from conductors. i've had co-workers severely burned & killed. if you have any questions about these lines, just email and ask me. configuration on poles changes from region to region - so some things might be different. ***about the insulation on the wires - i've seen demonstrations where they poke a hole in the insulation with a needle & cook a hotdog through an insulated lineman's glove - and you can't see a pinhole***



I had ten with the orange weenie and thirteen with the coop as a danger tree expert Now I am just an old fart lmfao. 500 kv lines were the funnest to trim.


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## Ertreesurgeon (Apr 25, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I had ten with the orange weenie and thirteen with the coop as a danger tree expert Now I am just an old fart lmfao. 500 kv lines were the funnest to trim.



I do mostly distribution lines up to 34kv. But have spent some time on overhead with the 500kv right of way clearing. We are always bailling out guys who drop limbs or whole trees on lines


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

Ertreesurgeon said:


> I do mostly distribution lines up to 34kv. But have spent some time on overhead with the 500kv right of way clearing. We are always bailling out guys who drop limbs or whole trees on lines



Lol yup the old landscaper syndrome :hmm3grin2orange: The reason I enjoyed 500 kv was fun falling, anything closer to the line was cut, we cut some monsters.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 25, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> I'm not going to argue, I'll keep my training in mind and stay alive, your preachings can get someone killed....





My "preachings" are *FACT*, back up by numerous links to industry sources, not some old guy who had umpty-seven years of "experience", and probably didn't know a Coulomb from a Columbian.


The worst danger is from old-wives tales, like "weather coating" on service drops.


In this case, I can't think of anything more dangerous than equating "insulation" with safety.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> My "preachings" are *FACT*, back up by numerous links to industry sources, not some old guy who had umpty-seven years of "experience", and probably didn't know a Coulomb from a Columbian.
> 
> 
> The worst danger is from old-wives tales, like "weather coating" on service drops.
> ...



In the industry, insulation means high or infinite resistance everything marked insulated is usually used for safety. Hot stick,blankets and rubber up is examples of insulation that protect linesmen and tree men from exposure. I somewhat agree that just because insulated does not mean safe but insulated in the industry usually means it has been made as SAFE AS POSSIBLE this can be done with special rubber blankets, insulated gloves with leather protectors, on down to properly isolated circuits. Your calling it insulation where as: someone who was an electrical engineer for the last power company I worked for said no. Tell me how someone believing a SERVICE IS NOT INSULATED is at risk of safety? I feel he will be less likely to touch it.

PS; it is not amps or volts that kill it is resistance to the flow of electrical currant that is the deciding factor.


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## PaulPollard (Apr 25, 2010)

Hey, nice post there ertreesurgeon! Good info there.

You guys are all pretty cool in my books for working near power lines everyday and still being around to talk about it!

I had no idea they did THIS until I saw the video...some words of wisdom near the end for us tree workers too.

High power line workers 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjC7DjoVe8&feature=related


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> My "preachings" are *FACT*, back up by numerous links to industry sources, not some old guy who had umpty-seven years of "experience", and probably didn't know a Coulomb from a Columbian.
> 
> 
> The worst danger is from old-wives tales, like "weather coating" on service drops.
> ...



I have had line men say it is killed out on storm work and I had to object. Dropping a fuse handle and grounding pig tail is not proper isolation, many experts disagree but I have seen experiments prove other wise. I will not let my men work on downed lines unless they have been properly isolated on both sides of the work. I had my own grounding chains and insisted on proper isolation. Many of the line men don't want to do all that's necessary to insure a safe site but in emergency operations working 35 hours straight you can bet I knew what made my boys safe and made damn sure it was done.


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 25, 2010)

We, in line clearance, are trained that the secondary lines are not to be considered insulated from a human contact standpoint, because they are not.

They tell use to consider it weather protection. Fine. I'll do that, even though I know triplex has insulating properties, and obviously functions as such when in good condition.

I think it is a carry over teaching from the old open secondary system, were it is clearly just weather protection. That being said, it is a good policy to teach it that way as many open services are still all too plentiful. 

Why allow for confusion, and why not be conservative on the side of caution?

To me, it is akin to teaching that primaries carry 7.2 when it is often less. We consider it 7.2 always as a rule.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> We, in line clearance, are trained that the secondary lines are not to be considered insulated from a human contact standpoint, because they are not.
> 
> They tell use to consider it weather protection. Fine. I'll do that, even though I know triplex has insulating properties, and obviously functions as such when in good condition.
> 
> ...



Open secondaries suck lmfao I have seen them cause outage with merely one wind blown sucker growth. Peta to trim around imho.


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 25, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Open secondaries suck lmfao I have seen them cause outage with merely one wind blown sucker growth. Peta to trim around imho.



Fact.

They need to be outlawed...lol.


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## Ertreesurgeon (Apr 25, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Fact.
> 
> They need to be outlawed...lol.



I love trimming vine covered mulberry trees buried in the bare aluminum open wire secondaries. With no spreaders of course. It like a game of operation. That's why I'm a tree surgeon.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

Ertreesurgeon said:


> I love trimming vine covered mulberry trees buried in the bare aluminum open wire secondaries. With no spreaders of course. It like a game of operation. That's why I'm a tree surgeon.



Lmfao bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt I like the old copper ones even better lmfao


PS: did I tell ya I see a nova in your future like tomorrow lol


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 25, 2010)

We enjoy copper ourselves. It can be tricky, but I have little mercy. I have respect and try not to tear anything up, but I haven't much time to spend being too particular.


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## Rftreeman (Apr 25, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Open secondaries suck lmfao I have seen them cause outage with merely one wind blown sucker growth. Peta to trim around imho.


:agree2:

I welded the chain to the bar on my pole saw when it crossed two lines on the open secondaries...had them smack and make fire works a few times to..


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> :agree2:
> 
> I welded the chain to the bar on my pole saw when it crossed two lines on the open secondaries...had them smack and make fire works a few times to..



Ever see a triplex burn? I witnessed a few they blow fire and then every few minutes the weather coating gets hot and another foot puuuuuuuuuuuf all the way to the can a foot or two at a time lmfao


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## ropensaddle (Apr 25, 2010)

Another sight to see is when a limb or tree goes across a three phase and after a while big blue fireballs begin to go back and forth down the lines lol. Ice storms are cool lol. Jacobs ladders are even better!


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## Rftreeman (Apr 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Another sight to see is when a limb or tree goes across a three phase and after a while big blue fireballs begin to go back and forth down the lines lol. Ice storms are cool lol. Jacobs ladders are even better!


this is even better when there's more than one circuit on the poles, big ole ball of blue fire.....


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## treecowboy67 (Apr 26, 2010)

*insulated*

I have been an arborist for about 15 yrs and line clearance certified for the last 3, As far as I have been told lines are not insulated but coated; for weather and corrosion protection; not for our protection. If your not qualified for it don't take the chance.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

Ok now a question for the other experienced line clearance specialist here. 
How many have experienced indirect contact of some sort and how many times?


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## treecowboy67 (Apr 26, 2010)

*contact*

twice, both times pulling cut branches out of apple trees(service lines)


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## Rftreeman (Apr 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok now a question for the other experienced line clearance specialist here.
> How many have experienced indirect contact of some sort and how many times?



I got bit on the butt a couple of times, thought I'd found a hornets nest, makes it taste like you got a nickle in your mouth....


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> I got bit on the butt a couple of times, thought I'd found a hornets nest, makes it taste like you got a nickle in your mouth....



Yup most including my self have experienced indirect contact that is; if you done the work long enough. My worst and near last time was years ago when my boss at big O thought correct overhang removal was using a hand saw underneath the limb and breaking it back. It was a gum limb and it snapped with me holding the limb and it going over three phases. I came down and stayed in the shade a while after that one. I decided right then I would use a rope for all overhang and never had any serious contact since those early days. I have felt it though the tree since but was out of the path of least resistance. I was lucky that day in the eighties and learned how to make it less serious afterward. I usually clear the burning limbs with a pruner from the ground then climb and set my ropes to pull it clear or hinge if there is enough room to do so never felt shock in that method of clearing.


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## Ertreesurgeon (Apr 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok now a question for the other experienced line clearance specialist here.
> How many have experienced indirect contact of some sort and how many times?



I'm proud to say only a few. Maybe only 3 times in 11 year of line clearance. I spent most of my time with the climbing crews not the bucket. It's much easier to get a tingle climbing. It was usually while trimming in the rain thru a wet pole clip. Once it was through a cable wire that was being energized by a 34 kv live. I was in one of those burried mulberries I was talking about.


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

Any of you guys that have experience with line want to come to St. Louis and finish taking down a big oak that is over power lines? I know it's going to cost a lot. There is most likely one full day in the tree. Rope you up for it? I could get tickets for a cardinal game also for whoever wants to do it.

Thanks Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> Any of you guys that have experience with line want to come to St. Louis and finish taking down a big oak that is over power lines? I know it's going to cost a lot. There is most likely one full day in the tree. Rope you up for it? I could get tickets for a cardinal game also for whoever wants to do it.
> 
> Thanks Scott



Hmmmmmm st louis I may if it don't have to be immediate! I have a ton of work and need to get off here and gone. I could do it in a few weeks! Is that soon enough?


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

That might work. I'll get some pictures of the tree. I can get my Genie to the tree but it's not insulated. I don't need the whole tree down just to the main stem. I'll block it down out of my boom after that. It's a pretty tight area. PM me and let me know what kind of cost I am looking at.

Thanks Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> That might work. I'll get some pictures of the tree. I can get my Genie to the tree but it's not insulated. I don't need the whole tree down just to the main stem. I'll block it down out of my boom after that. It's a pretty tight area. PM me and let me know what kind of cost I am looking at.
> 
> Thanks Scott



Post the pics and I will tell you! I can be a sub per day or whatever! Is there a rigging point left to pull and lower from?PS: if I caught it on a weekend I could take the wifes kia 36 mpg lol.


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

Weekend is fine for me. I have a couple 200ts one with a 14" and one with a 16" so you don't have to make her car smell like gas. I'd put a new chain on both just for you. I'll get pics today and post them later.

Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> Weekend is fine for me. I have a couple 200ts one with a 14" and one with a 16" so you don't have to make her car smell like gas. I'd put a new chain on both just for you. I'll get pics today and post them later.
> 
> Scott



Ok I am going to chip five trees now lol I will look and try to figure out something we can both live with!


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## treemandan (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> That might work. I'll get some pictures of the tree. I can get my Genie to the tree but it's not insulated. I don't need the whole tree down just to the main stem. I'll block it down out of my boom after that. It's a pretty tight area. PM me and let me know what kind of cost I am looking at.
> 
> Thanks Scott



Yeah, keep that lift away!


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

OK Rope here are the pictures of the tree. I tried to get a lot of different angles. If you have any questions or need a different angle let me know. I just need the tree taken down to the where the branches hit the main stem.

Thanks Scott


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

More pics


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## pdqdl (Apr 26, 2010)

Is that 3-phase primaries under that tree, or just the secondaries?

If those are primaries, I believe I would make the utility company get the top out of that. It's clearly their obligation.

Around here, if a tree is only over the secondaries, they will put REAL insulation on the lines, and then tell you to have fun. All the while adding comments like:

...please don't tear the wires down! 
...Call us if you knock down the wires!


We had a really nasty dead tree last fall, KCPL was going to take down all the pole-to-pole secondaries at the back of the lots before they were going to take the top out of the tree themselves. Fortunately, my cheapskate relative didn't want to pay me the $500 I quoted for climbing and dropping this behemoth. When he calls me again this summer, I'll politely decline, as it is too much dead for me to set foot in, and I can't ask someone else to do it either.

It was a 3' DBH shingle oak about 80' tall, leaning at about 20° off vertical, with no branches for 50'. Real easy work to do, providing it never failed during the climb. I'm a chicken in dead trees.


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Is that 3-phase primaries under that tree, or just the secondaries?
> 
> If those are primaries, I believe I would make the utility company get the top out of that. It's clearly their obligation.
> 
> ...




Pretty sure they are just secondaries. The power company is a small town that does their own power. They do not do any tree cutting of any kind. I thought about seeing if they could take the lines down and cut power for a couple hours. That would make it a very easy and quick take down. They will put the plastic line wrapping on the lines. Problem is that adds a lot of extra weight. The tree just dies last year and it's very solid.

Scott


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## treeclimber101 (Apr 26, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> I got bit on the butt a couple of times, thought I'd found a hornets nest, makes it taste like you got a nickle in your mouth....



I know that taste well I got it through a wet rope on a service drop that taste is followed by the brief red flash that I assume is my brain being jump started , lol, I cut the sheathing off a service drop with a t200 and my toes curled in my boots ....


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## Treeman587 (Apr 26, 2010)

Has anyone cited the HVSA (High Voltage Safety Act)? I didnt read all 7 pages. If you work within the limits of overhead lines you are only screwing yourself, the power company cuts it for you......FOR FREE. At least here in VA. I have had them cut many trees for me, You call in, tell them you are dong work and you would be encroaching. And they come cut for you.


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## lxt (Apr 26, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> what are your guys thoughts on working around power lines.
> 
> how ive always done it was i cut them down as long as they where not grown through unisulated high tension you know the ones on the top of the poles.
> 
> ...




Matt, read ANSI, non-certified trimmers shouldnt even be around powerlines!! ehap is fine but no substitute for LCTT training through a JATC/ bargaining unit!!

whatever you do.....be careful & stay safe!


LXT..................


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

Looks like open secondaries with primary above definitely not easy but it is doable. Don't cut off any more limbs as need pull points to clear the over hang! I will pm you shortly with my prognosis is their anything on the other side of the lines that would prevent jumpcuts? It will be a day for sure if its as close as it appears. A pic of where those lines hit the pole would be handy! I don't see the neutral so the top wire could possibly be overhead guy! That would be better not easier mind you lol.


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Looks like open secondaries with primary above definitely not easy but it is doable. Don't cut off any more limbs as need pull points to clear the over hang! I will pm you shortly with my prognosis is their anything on the other side of the lines that would prevent jumpcuts? It will be a day for sure if its as close as it appears. A pic of where those lines hit the pole would be handy! I don't see the neutral so the top wire could possibly be overhead guy! That would be better not easier mind you lol.



No more cutting will be done. Not sure what you mean by jumpcuts? There are some trees and a very nice yard. I can talk to the homeowner about working over there. I'll take the pic of the lines hitting the poles to can give tomorrow. Thanks for any help you can give me.

Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> No more cutting will be done. Not sure what you mean by jumpcuts? There are some trees and a very nice yard. I can talk to the homeowner about working over there. I'll take the pic of the lines hitting the poles to can give tomorrow. Thanks for any help you can give me.
> 
> Scott



Hmmmmmmmm I am thinking here


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

Can't get a normal size bucket to it Local rental company has a Nifty that will drive it's self in the backyard and go 64ft. Problem is it's not insulated either. 

Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> Can't get a normal size bucket to it Local rental company has a Nifty that will drive it's self in the backyard and go 64ft. Problem is it's not insulated either.
> 
> Scott



Its ok, I can climb it just being a little lazy lmfao. It actually would cost me too much to bring the bucket anyways lol


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

Did you say its in a small town?


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Did you say its in a small town?



No it's in Kirkwood MO. They are kind of small but right on the out skirts of St. Louis.

Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 26, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> No more cutting will be done. Not sure what you mean by jumpcuts? There are some trees and a very nice yard. I can talk to the homeowner about working over there. I'll take the pic of the lines hitting the poles to can give tomorrow. Thanks for any help you can give me.
> 
> Scott



Yes that will help to know if that is a primary zoom into top of pole. If its a nice yard jump cuts may be out of the question but they are snap cuts made to clear lines and drop the limbs on the opposite side of tree past or over lines. It really does not look like that would be my plan but never hurts to know all options. Definitely going to need my pole saw,pulleys,block, several ropes, spurs,saddle etc. In your pics it seems the lower limbs were burning or near burning but may be illusion once that is cleared it will go faster.


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## STLfirewood (Apr 26, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yes that will help to know if that is a primary zoom into top of pole. If its a nice yard jump cuts may be out of the question but they are snap cuts made to clear lines and drop the limbs on the opposite side of tree past or over lines. It really does not look like that would be my plan but never hurts to know all options. Definitely going to need my pole saw,pulleys,block, several ropes, spurs,saddle etc. In your pics it seems the lower limbs were burning or near burning but may be illusion once that is cleared it will go faster.




I'll get those pictures tomorrow. Again thanks for all your help. I'll bring some ropes and things I have just in case you need them. All saws will have new chains so you don't have to worry about them being ready. I want to make this as easy for you as I can so let me know everything you need. 

Thanks again
Scott


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## ropensaddle (Apr 27, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmfao bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt I like the old copper ones even better lmfao
> 
> 
> PS: did I tell ya I see a nova in your future like tomorrow lol



told ya I would give you a nova lol


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## ropensaddle (Apr 27, 2010)

STLfirewood said:


> I'll get those pictures tomorrow. Again thanks for all your help. I'll bring some ropes and things I have just in case you need them. All saws will have new chains so you don't have to worry about them being ready. I want to make this as easy for you as I can so let me know everything you need.
> 
> Thanks again
> Scott



make it two lol


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## ropensaddle (Apr 27, 2010)

lxt said:


> Matt, read ANSI, non-certified trimmers shouldnt even be around powerlines!! ehap is fine but no substitute for LCTT training through a JATC/ bargaining unit!!
> 
> whatever you do.....be careful & stay safe!
> 
> ...



three lmfao


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## ropensaddle (Apr 27, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> I got bit on the butt a couple of times, thought I'd found a hornets nest, makes it taste like you got a nickle in your mouth....



fourth nova


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## vaclimber (Apr 27, 2010)

*Need you say more?!?*



Rftreeman said:


> Here's my thoughts, watch this (WARNING, IT'S GRAPHIC)
> 
> 
> That could be your someday............



WOW! That really drives it home as far as the potential outcome when working around electricity. I was trained "old school," as in whatever it takes to get the check yesterday, and have been in situations no one should be in. I'm blessed to have not been electrified and am a better climber/rigger from the experience.Nowadays, I don't have to or want to test fate, so i deal with electricity accordingly(safely) with as little chance as possible.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 27, 2010)

to answer the original poster:
I heard in and ehap trainig that unless you are certified to work around power lines, you need to stay 10' away from any line... ANY LINE.. that means phone, cable, and guy lines.. Those are the rules.. the only problem is if you really paid attention to them, you often wouldn't be able to drive down the driveway or walk through the backyard... 

So technically we aren;t supposed to drop phone and cable lines from the house, or use a polesaw to lift a low phone line to get a tall truck under it, or cut any branch or tree that is or could get within 10' of any line..


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## mattfr12 (Apr 28, 2010)

murphy4trees said:


> to answer the original poster:
> I heard in and ehap trainig that unless you are certified to work around power lines, you need to stay 10' away from any line... ANY LINE.. that means phone, cable, and guy lines.. Those are the rules.. the only problem is if you really paid attention to them, you often wouldn't be able to drive down the driveway or walk through the backyard...
> 
> So technically we aren;t supposed to drop phone and cable lines from the house, or use a polesaw to lift a low phone line to get a tall truck under it, or cut any branch or tree that is or could get within 10' of any line..



thanks for the reply this is the same answer i got from the local power companies.

but my main reason for this post was a local guy died from electricity in a tree. 2 weeks ago.

and i do line clearance for a local telephone company a month or 2 out of every year. phone lines run close to electric lines on the poles. 

the power companies are aware that we do this work and are allowed to go past the 10 feet mark. to clear phone lines. the work is sub-contracted to us. my job when doing this is to get the tree 10 feet from the lines.

i am just trying to make sure what im doing is safe enough or is thier anything that you guys know that could make my job safer that i dont know.

i use fiber glass pole saw wear 17,000 volt rated gloves. the lines that we work around are 12,000 volt 3 phase . my ground workers wear the protective boot covers so if they touch the truck it keeps them from grounding. and im also in a fiber glass boom. we follow and use the same saftey equipment the power companies use when working around lines. and we are expected to follow the same guidlines. i even #### can my gloves every 5 months and buy a new 100 pair.

after his death it just made me think? to me when it comes to saftey money is no option a 1700.00 fiber glass saw or 100.00 pair of gloves to keep me from getting fried is money well spent. if it keeps me or my crew from getting hurt.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 28, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> thanks for the reply this is the same answer i got from the local power companies.
> 
> but my main reason for this post was a local guy died from electricity in a tree. 2 weeks ago.
> 
> ...



I if you, would get the certified utility arborist study guide. If your working in close proximity to lines the info would be invaluable. However; Murphy made a mis-post, as the word is qualified, not certified. Qualified means ;you have enough practical experience and training working near energized conductors to be proficient in reasonably safe practice.This usually means; your in the practice by profession and have ongoing training and sufficient knowledge for its safe operations. For me 21 years qualifies me but as far as I know I have no certifications other than many safety awards.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 29, 2010)

I'd be a careful with that kind of thinking.. you don't have to ground electricity for it to kill you.. Its tricky stuff and can get you a lot of different ways..


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## ropensaddle (Apr 29, 2010)

murphy4trees said:


> I'd be a careful with that kind of thinking.. you don't have to ground electricity for it to kill you.. Its tricky stuff and can get you a lot of different ways..



You got that right you can even get it from an isolated circuit or even wire not connected to any power source period. Induction is weird stuff!


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## pdqdl (Apr 30, 2010)

Back in 1982 I met a marvelous retired electrician, whose name was Bill S. He taught me a whole lot of neat things, and had been a very creative and versatile person.

One of his stories, pertinant to your comment on induction:

When rural electrification came through in the Depression, his parents were essentially run down by the utility company, who forced them to allow the power lines to transit across their property with no compensation at all! Furthermore, they didn't offer to sell them electricity at a reduced rate, either. Naturally, they didn't like that deal at all.

They strung a single strand of wire for about 1/4 mile, immediately parallel to the high voltage power line. _Apparently, the poles were not very tall in those days._ With that single wire, hanging close to the primary, they picked up enough induced current to run their farm for many years, all for free. 

If they got too many appliances going, like the well pump and the clothes washer, they had rigged their wire so that it could be tensioned a bit more for higher current by being closer to the wire, and lower tension when they didn't need as much current. They hooked a light bulb up close to the rope that pulled the wire tight, and watched it carefully for how bright it got.

The power utility was obviously not liking that plan, but they kept loosing the lawsuits, as the judges decided that the property owners were just catching the electricity that the primary wires were throwing away!

He told me that eventually they got it banned in court by declaring that it was too hazardous, that there was no way of stopping the delivered voltage. Bill S. agreed that this was true, and that the utility eventually raised the poles too high to steal current from anyway.

Although I had understood induction prior to that tale, it clearly showed me the real-world risk from induced current in parallel wires, and has helped me understand many other different situations.

You should hear some of his other stories...


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## Bigus Termitius (Apr 30, 2010)

Tell another one, pd. opcorn:


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

He told me a story about being asked to hand-deliver an envelope full of money from a source that I can't remember, to a local politician that later became president.

This of course, was long before Harry made it to the big time. He was under the impression at the time that it was a bribe or payoff of some sort, he just didn't know enough details to do any damage. The best I can recall was that it was from some big depression contractor.

I wish I could remember more of the details. Ol' Bill S. sure didn't think much of Harry S., nor his presidential legacy.

Then there is the story about how Bill once tried to bottle acetylene. You may not know this, but a long time ago acetylene didn't come in yellow metal bottles...


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## Bigus Termitius (May 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> He told me a story about being asked to hand-deliver an envelope full of money from a source that I can't remember, to a local politician that later became president.
> 
> This of course, was long before Harry made it to the big time. He was under the impression at the time that it was a bribe or payoff of some sort, he just didn't know enough details to do any damage. The best I can recall was that it was from some big depression contractor.
> 
> ...



I'm a big fan of old people. I love to get them talking, and sit back and learn. Especially old farmers, I see them on the job all the time.


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## Bermie (May 1, 2010)

Did my line clearance job on Thursday...just watching the BELCO guys make the lines safe was an education, foreman on site was in contact with the engineer at the station, span got shut down, then the linesmen came through and grounded all the poles.
I thought all they had to do was shut off the current, but what I didn't know was that the home generators that the people have can feed back into the wires and still be a problem...!
This is why I won't risk anything near the power, its worth the wait to have it done properly...now if they'd just leave the tree trimming to the pros!!!

I got this job because the trees were in a nature reserve and the Trust didn't want them hacked. A couple of times my back nearly brushed the lines while up in the bucket, still gave me the jimineys even knowing the juice was off!!!

Reading your post about induced current pdql just gave me another perspective...very interesting thread guys.


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Did my line clearance job on Thursday...just watching the BELCO guys make the lines safe was an education, foreman on site was in contact with the engineer at the station, span got shut down, then the linesmen came through and grounded all the poles.
> I thought all they had to do was shut off the current, but what I didn't know was that the home generators that the people have can feed back into the wires and still be a problem...!
> This is why I won't risk anything near the power, its worth the wait to have it done properly...now if they'd just leave the tree trimming to the pros!!!
> 
> ...



Bermie many times the lines men call it grounded and it is not properly isolated. They will run a jumper from phase to ground neutral or ground pigtail on transformer"can" to neutral.
That is not enough it should be also jumped all the way to ground on both sides of work to properly isolate a work zone but I have yet to see them do it on their own until I make them.


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## Bermie (May 1, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Bermie many times the lines men call it grounded and it is not properly isolated. They will run a jumper from phase to ground neutral or ground pigtail on transformer"can" to neutral.
> That is not enough it should be also jumped all the way to ground on both sides of work to properly isolate a work zone but I have yet to see them do it on their own until I make them.



Not being an expert, but that sounds like what they did, they double checked my work area and were doing something at either end as well as the poles before they let me start...

It really made me think about getting better educated about electricity, really, there are so many variables that I cringe to think of the work I have done a bit close to power. Also I'd have a better idea of safety, potentially I am banking my life on BELCO doing the right thing, I'm sure they do, they are the electricity experts, not me...but still it would be sensible to understand it better, risk assessment, time issues, all adds onto the bid price too.


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## Bigus Termitius (May 1, 2010)

Bermie said:


> [...now if they'd just leave the tree trimming to the pros!!!



LOL!! FACT. 

The stuff I've come across from the prior trimming cycles can really be aggrivating, but in their defense, the power companies do push for quantity more than quality.

With a vermeer 1400xl at my disposal, we push for removals, especially along a timber line. Landowners see the before and after. And it looks mostly as if I wasn't even there, for the trees I did just trim are good, and the ones that would have been left looking funky are mulch or firewood.

That generator backfeed is more than you might think. The transformer works two ways and amplifies it going back down the line. It's amazing how many people hook them up wrong and cause this situation during storms. There ought to be a felony law.


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## Bermie (May 1, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> LOL!! FACT.
> 
> The stuff I've come across from the prior trimming cycles can really be aggrivating, but in their defense, the power companies do push for quantity more than quality.
> 
> .



Doing this job gave me an insight into how the bad cutting comes about...we had this very wealthy estate shut down for four hours, we had to move four times for construction vehicles...IRRITATING, so here am I trying to do proper cuts, throwing all the branches out to be cleared, all the time thinking, only got four hours, time ticking away every time we have to move...just CUT it...and that's me with proper tree knowledge, no wonder the hack landscapers who have the main contract just trash everything and dump the branches in the bushes...
Definitely got a new perspective on things this week!


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Doing this job gave me an insight into how the bad cutting comes about...we had this very wealthy estate shut down for four hours, we had to move four times for construction vehicles...IRRITATING, so here am I trying to do proper cuts, throwing all the branches out to be cleared, all the time thinking, only got four hours, time ticking away every time we have to move...just CUT it...and that's me with proper tree knowledge, no wonder the hack landscapers who have the main contract just trash everything and dump the branches in the bushes...
> Definitely got a new perspective on things this week!



Lmao yup and when your looking at miles and miles of line to be trimmed, a stub don't look too bad lol. A sky trim looks even better


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

*Another induction story*

I used to do the grounds maintenance at a local TV station, and I had occasion to talk to their maintenance man about going up the tower. I like heights, you see. I tried to get a ride up the tower, but that never happened.

They have two different antenna at different heights on the tower for each TV broadcast. The power going up these massive cables is both high voltage and high frequency. Furthermore, it doesn't get shut off for maintenance!

When the maintenance people go up the tiny little elevator, they are in close proximity to the massive transmit-power cables. They actually have to be grounded to the cage, and the tools on their belt begin to emit sparks, like a piece of aluminum in the microwave. HO! I don't think I would like that!

When they get close to the lower antenna, they must be transmitting from the top antenna. In order to service the upper antenna, they must pass the lower, then the engineers switch from the upper to the lower antenna.

Doing it wrong will be fatal! Induced currents are part of the problem, but apparently the people will be somewhat microwaved just from the inductive field caused by the huge EMF field.

Rope: ever work near high voltage and get any sparking from induced current in your tools?


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## ropensaddle (May 1, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I used to do the grounds maintenance at a local TV station, and I had occasion to talk to their maintenance man about going up the tower. I like heights, you see. I tried to get a ride up the tower, but that never happened.
> 
> They have two different antenna at different heights on the tower for each TV broadcast. The power going up these massive cables is both high voltage and high frequency. Furthermore, it doesn't get shut off for maintenance!
> 
> ...



Yes I have especially when I was on 500 kv lines experienced my d rings shocking me and I was on the ground. Wild voltage static near those structures!


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## pdqdl (May 1, 2010)

Grounding won't help you there: every climbing belt I ever saw was non-conductive, so those d-rings were just a little capacitor waiting to discharge into your belly.

Fun, was it? D-rings biting you in the belly every time you bent over!


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## Bermie (May 1, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmao yup and when your looking at miles and miles of line to be trimmed, a stub don't look too bad lol. A sky trim looks even better



Ha ha...yeah, looking at life from the other side...oh, my principles are being tested!!! I...must...stay...strong...:help:


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## Bigus Termitius (May 3, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmao yup and when your looking at miles and miles of line to be trimmed, a stub don't look too bad lol. A sky trim looks even better



You know how the old saw goes: "Can't see it from my house."


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## Bigus Termitius (May 3, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Doing this job gave me an insight into how the bad cutting comes about...we had this very wealthy estate shut down for four hours, we had to move four times for construction vehicles...IRRITATING, so here am I trying to do proper cuts, throwing all the branches out to be cleared, all the time thinking, only got four hours, time ticking away every time we have to move...just CUT it...and that's me with proper tree knowledge, no wonder the hack landscapers who have the main contract just trash everything and dump the branches in the bushes...
> Definitely got a new perspective on things this week!



It's no picnic for sure. 

Which is why when I get side work, I like taking that extra time to relax and enjoy my work.

I like trimming for clearance at a good pace. I make good cuts, but like you said, I just CUT IT, and go.

Sometimes during the week I downshift for yard trees and surprise homeowners with the results. It's not what they saw last time the clearance crew came through. That feels good and the word gets out that we aren't hacks and we do care about their trees' health and aesthetics. We communicate that in every way we can, and the power company mails out letters to members that are supportive of us in that regard.

People see our work and all the efforts help in the long run.

I like it, but honestly, I'm looking forward to getting into a position to where I can spend more time looking at things from your primary perspective.


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## ropensaddle (May 3, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Ha ha...yeah, looking at life from the other side...oh, my principles are being tested!!! I...must...stay...strong...:help:



Lol awwwwwwww shucks jump on in Bermie the waters fine:yourock:


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## Labman (May 3, 2010)

Jumper said:


> I would not trust the insulation on electric wires for a minute. Only way yould get me near power lines would be if they are switched off by the hydro guys, or maybe with proper training, rubber gloves, sleeves and overshoes.



I once worked for a wire company. That stuff on service entry wire isn't insulation, only a protective coating to protect the wire from tree branches and so forth. We could coat it with any old junk, no UL specifications.


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## Rftreeman (May 4, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmao yup and when your looking at miles and miles of line to be trimmed, a stub don't look too bad lol. A sky trim looks even better


the sky trim was probably my favorite toy, especially since it had AC and radio......


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## Treeman587 (May 12, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Bermie many times the lines men call it grounded and it is not properly isolated. They will run a jumper from phase to ground neutral or ground pigtail on transformer"can" to neutral.
> That is not enough it should be also jumped all the way to ground on both sides of work to properly isolate a work zone but I have yet to see them do it on their own until I make them.



Dominion Virginia Power. Bracket ground the area tree trimmers will be working. IN akward and storm recovery operations it is the policy of DVP to ground all phases of primary to the common neutral using 2/0 copper jumpers for tree trimmers. DVP poles are with primary installed or 40' and greater in length are grounded at installation. This consists of a 4 solid copper wire run from the neutral to either a ground rod or a copper plate at the base of the pole. That is the minimum requirement. If a device (transformer, lightening arrestor, etc.) is installed on the pole, multiple ground rods are driven and then checked for a minimum continuity of 25 ohms to ground. So for DVP, if a ground is placed between the primary and neutral it is bonded to true ground. If Power utilities don't ground their neutral then none of their lightening protection would work, so that neutral is attatched to ground. Once it is grounded you can lick it and you will be okay.

DVP also uses their contractors for line trimming. And in accordance with the HVSA must ground the line or perform the work themselves to give you a safe working environment in the vacinity of the lines, AT NO CHARGE. 

ITS NOT WORTH IT, THEY WILL MAKE IT SAFE FOR YOU.


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## ropensaddle (May 12, 2010)

Treeman587 said:


> Dominion Virginia Power. Bracket ground the area tree trimmers will be working. IN akward and storm recovery operations it is the policy of DVP to ground all phases of primary to the common neutral using 2/0 copper jumpers for tree trimmers. DVP poles are with primary installed or 40' and greater in length are grounded at installation. This consists of a 4 solid copper wire run from the neutral to either a ground rod or a copper plate at the base of the pole. That is the minimum requirement. If a device (transformer, lightening arrestor, etc.) is installed on the pole, multiple ground rods are driven and then checked for a minimum continuity of 25 ohms to ground. So for DVP, if a ground is placed between the primary and neutral it is bonded to true ground. If Power utilities don't ground their neutral then none of their lightening protection would work, so that neutral is attatched to ground. Once it is grounded you can lick it and you will be okay.
> 
> DVP also uses their contractors for line trimming. And in accordance with the HVSA must ground the line or perform the work themselves to give you a safe working environment in the vacinity of the lines, AT NO CHARGE.
> 
> ITS NOT WORTH IT, THEY WILL MAKE IT SAFE FOR YOU.



Yes it is jumped phase to neutral or 3 phase to neutral but there needs to be a long jumper from neutral to ground rod as well many linemen say no but I saw a display that proved otherwise. A pole ground is not enough to ensure proper isolation. The display was a mini version with a light bulb and it showed that pole ground can prove not to be safe in storm emergency operations. I forget all the particulars but remember the way it is safe.
Of course during routine trimming its hot so you treat is as such.


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## tree md (May 13, 2010)

I work all around house drops but stay 10' from primaries.

This is the last one I did close to phase 3. Was right at 10' from the lines. There is kind of an optical illusion in the pics. The sucker growth nearest the lines are actually above the lines. I had to hold every one of them while I cut them with my hand saw and pitch them in the clear. The suckers were long enough to touch the line had I have just tried to cut them and let them drop. I put a tag line in everything I lowered on this one to make sure nothing swung back into the lines. 

I also remembered the Guido story and kept my 044 clipped to my saddle when I worked my way down the spar close to the lines.

If I can stay at least 10' from the primary I will work the tree. Anything closer I leave to the line clearance guys


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## ozzy42 (May 13, 2010)

A nice little demonstration


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy7MWzctTm0


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

*Well went to St Louis*

Went up and worked with Stlfirewood and got the tree down to where it can be done with his lift. It was a bugger folks but had a good time here is some picks!

The job 15 foot over hang primary and open secondaries but at least there was some coating.













the start!


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

And more


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

More








The only lead not over hanging








Ok friends; them boyz from the show me state were a makin fun of us Arkansan's 
about being rednecks n such but we would like yaáll to know, we almost got in trouble in Missouri on the way home and if Barney was not having relations with the chicken, he would have surely got us:hmm3grin2orange:


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## mattfr12 (Jun 7, 2010)

nice job rope but im disapointed in one thing... you look nothing like your avatar  did you do all that with natural crotch rigging?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes natural crotch on the rigging, but almost every trick in the book was used from jump cutting where I could, to tag lines,to snap cuts you name it, it took it all. Yeah I don't look like ole Clint lol.

PS: the power stayed on no outage!


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## tree md (Jun 7, 2010)

Nice work rope. Looked like a tricky one.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

tree md said:


> Nice work rope. Looked like a tricky one.



About 10 foot LZ too


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## Rftreeman (Jun 7, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yes natural crotch on the rigging, but almost every trick in the book was used from jump cutting where I could, to tag lines,to snap cuts you name it, it took it all. Yeah I don't look like ole Clint lol.
> 
> PS: the power stayed on no outage!


WHAT!!!! No crane, are you kidding me.........lol....

damn fine job there Rope..


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## ozzy42 (Jun 7, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> nice job rope but im disapointed in one thing... you look nothing like your avatar



Hope I can still climb like that when I'm 80
http://www.cinematical.com/2010/05/31/happy-birthday-clint-eastwood/


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 7, 2010)

Excellent job there Rope. I liked the simple natural crotching. What climbing saw you using there? 200t or is that one down?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

Nailsbeats said:


> Excellent job there Rope. I liked the simple natural crotching. What climbing saw you using there? 200t or is that one down?



200 t yes,but it was stlfirewoods saw not mine! PS: I have blocks and pully but really the job consisted more of tag lines and jump cutting than tip tie as there was not a suitable pull point high enough to be effective to lift those long limbs.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> Hope I can still climb like that when I'm 80
> http://www.cinematical.com/2010/05/31/happy-birthday-clint-eastwood/



Lmfao you mean slow?


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## lxt (Jun 7, 2010)

mattfr12 said:


> nice work on the tree any other day i wouldnt blink at working around the lines but the guy i know getting electricuted really bugged me. just made me think about how close i been getting to them.
> 
> i really like the upper class comunity that have all the electricity under ground. a town in pa called sewickly most if not all power even to the houses is under ground.



Sewickley lines underground?????? worked that area for 3 different trim cycles through asplundh & lewis! very little is underground!! from edgeworth to osbourne its all old money & people who complain evey time a tree needs trimmed.

theres some very old easements in that town, scaife road, turkeyfoot rd & every thing up by DT watson out to Glenn Mitchell rd....the new lines put in on capital work are all 13.2 - 23kv & all the 4kv stuff is ancient with bare secondary banks & no spacers!! not to mention that area has some BIG TREES!!!! & in the worst spots!



LXT..............


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## lxt (Jun 7, 2010)

Ropes did you chill for a minute to put in a chew? that reminds me of my buddy....no matter where he`s at when its time for a dip he pauses & looks so calm..... like he`s mesmerized by the chew!! LOL

Dam good job!




LXT................


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## ropensaddle (Jun 7, 2010)

lxt said:


> Ropes did you chill for a minute to put in a chew? that reminds me of my buddy....no matter where he`s at when its time for a dip he pauses & looks so calm..... like he`s mesmerized by the chew!! LOL
> 
> Dam good job!
> 
> ...



Folks we have a wiener, yup, dip time. It has been a long time since doing a bad line clearing type job and it would be a lie if I told you I was not tense a time or two those limbs where starting to slip bark and a couple were doughty and all limbs thumbsize could just be broken easily. I have done these type trees for many years when I was a danger tree foreman. The trunk of this tree is right near minimum separation or about three feet from the primary, I told stlfirewood I could not promise there would not be an outage but I would try not to. It was done with no loss to service.


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## tree md (Jun 7, 2010)

I hear ya buddy, anything that close to a primary is pretty intense. The tree I posted up earlier in this thread was 7-10' from the primary at the trunk and that is as close I care to go. And that was a live tree. 3', noway. But then again I was never trained for utility work like you have been. I pretty much try to respect the 10' rule. 

I think someone really has to have been there before they can fully appreciate the scope of that tree. Again, GOOD JOB!


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 8, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Folks we have a wiener, yup, dip time. It has been a long time since doing a bad line clearing type job and it would be a lie if I told you I was not tense a time or two those limbs where starting to slip bark and a couple were doughty and all limbs thumbsize could just be broken easily. I have done these type trees for many years when I was a danger tree foreman. The trunk of this tree is right near minimum separation or about three feet from the primary, I told stlfirewood I could not promise there would not be an outage but I would try not to. It was done with no loss to service.



'No loss to service'.... I like how that was worded.

Good work, man. 

Where is your 335? 200 eat it? lol.

While I'm thinking on that...I'll trade you my 335 for your 200 that doesn't work so good. deal?


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## mattfr12 (Jun 15, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> 'No loss to service'.... I like how that was worded.
> 
> Good work, man.
> 
> ...



ya me 2 if you change your mind.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 19, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I am qualified after supervising and performing line clearance many years.



Being qualified is only half the battle, and hopefully makes one realize the consequences. However, there are a lot of supposedly qualified tree workers who still scare me..

I worked for provincial utility for many years (same as a state on in the U.S. - if they have state run utilities). Now I was in forestry, but we still had the same training and the same tools as the linemen did, in fact half the crew used to be linemen. Doubtful that many tree workers can tell 8kv from 44kv to tell the truth.. 

And frankly, without the tools and protective gear that I had when working for utility, I keep my distance from anything on primary side of transformer. Now if I had the proper protective gear then would be different story.. 

Moral of story, don't be stupid. I have seen many, many contacts in my life. Fortunately all with equipment, trees or other conductors. Electricity is not to be messed with or underestimated, it only takes a short time of inattentiveness or carelessness and it is all over.

Leave it to somebody with training, equipment and who is doing it every day.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 19, 2010)

tree md said:


> But then again I was never trained for utility work like you have been. I pretty much try to respect the 10' rule.



Good principle to follow. Electricity has no friends, and treats all as equals.


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## Lawnmowerboy48 (Jun 19, 2010)

Honestly many of you inspect your bucket booms daily? It is said that fiberglass booms are not conductive. If you take a graphite pencil and draw a line down the boom; that boom is not compromised. Lets think about all of the stuff that gets on our booms every day: oil, bark, scratches, saw chips, etc. It is not the voltage that kills it it the amps. It only takes half a milliamp to offset your hearts rhythm to kill you. I just mow lawns don't take me seriously haha.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 19, 2010)

Lawnmowerboy48 said:


> Honestly many of you inspect your bucket booms daily? It is said that fiberglass booms are not conductive. If you take a graphite pencil and draw a line down the boom; that boom is not compromised. Lets think about all of the stuff that gets on our booms every day: oil, bark, scratches, saw chips, etc. It is not the voltage that kills it it the amps. It only takes half a milliamp to offset your hearts rhythm to kill you. I just mow lawns don't take me seriously haha.



Ok..

1st - Fiberglass booms, when properly maintained, and when inspected properly on regular basis are non-conductive to the level which they are rated. This can vary dramatically from one to another however. Note it is ONLY to the rates level that any insulator is considered safe. There is no such thing as a perfect insulator - or non-conductive material. Essentially in theory, if the voltage is pushed to a high enough level, any insulated material can be broken down.

2nd - anything on the boom surface can compromise the boom. As can impacts, etc. Which is why crews for utility companies are trained to inspect the booms, identify potential issues and then have trucks serviced properly.

3rd - Contrary to common belief or understanding it is a combination of voltage and current that kills. Voltage on its own typically, if high enough is the major cause of visible burns. However, it takes voltage to overcome resistance, whatever that resistance is. A tree limb, a truck boom, truck tires (yes I have seen tires blown off a truck by a contact), air, or your body. However, once the level of voltage is sufficient to cause an electron flow, then that flow - called current - is measured in amperes. (or fractions thereof) So.. it is actually the flow of electrons - or milliamps that is stated to kill - but that is electron flow. Electron flow CAN NOT occur until the voltage is sufficient to overcome the resistance in its path. Once the flow begins - watch out!


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## ropensaddle (Jun 19, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Being qualified is only half the battle, and hopefully makes one realize the consequences. However, there are a lot of supposedly qualified tree workers who still scare me..
> 
> I worked for provincial utility for many years (same as a state on in the U.S. - if they have state run utilities). Now I was in forestry, but we still had the same training and the same tools as the linemen did, in fact half the crew used to be linemen. Doubtful that many tree workers can tell 8kv from 44kv to tell the truth..
> 
> ...



I agree and have had many years of training and performing the impossible, as I have said; I was on my last employment hazard tree foreman for the power company 13 years. I have worked in line clearance over two decades and have experienced everything your trying to warn about. Some talk a good game and some have been there and I am the latter. It is neither amps or volts that kill it is lack of resistance that gets you. Staying out of the path of least resistance is your friend when working with power.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 19, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Ok..
> 
> 1st - Fiberglass booms, when properly maintained, and when inspected properly on regular basis are non-conductive to the level which they are rated. This can vary dramatically from one to another however. Note it is ONLY to the rates level that any insulator is considered safe. There is no such thing as a perfect insulator - or non-conductive material. Essentially in theory, if the voltage is pushed to a high enough level, any insulated material can be broken down.
> 
> ...



I have performed hypot tests on booms it is required at least yearly for buckets used in line clearance. The test is performed with a portable transformer capable of 100kv with allowed leakage of 5 milliamps that expensive equipment can test for we also tested our gloves and basket liners by submerging them in water and a metal prod is inside liner which is juiced to 100kv and the leakage is measured on the metal tank. And yes there is a perfect insulator it was made by God it is called wings and birds have them.


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I agree and have had many years of training and performing the impossible, as I have said; I was on my last employment hazard tree foreman for the power company 13 years. I have worked in line clearance over two decades and have experienced everything your trying to warn about. Some talk a good game and some have been there and I am the latter. It is neither amps or volts that kill it is lack of resistance that gets you. Staying out of the path of least resistance is your friend when working with power.



Fact.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> It is neither amps or volts that kill it is lack of resistance that gets you. Staying out of the path of least resistance is your friend when working with power.



True  Although on a contact, even if not the path of least resistance some current can flow through any and all paths. Assuming the source voltage is high enough (unless the lowest path is darn low (ie: a piece of steel). On higher voltages, it is not uncommon for the current to take multiple paths to ground. Some will experience higher current flow due to lower resistance, but all can take some flow.

But nothing beats staying smart, keeping safe.. and keeping alive!!

We used to call the three (voltage, current and amperage) the power triangle.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> And yes there is a perfect insulator it was made by God it is called wings and birds have them.



Well.. yes that is a pretty good one for sure. However, God also made electricity .. and at high enough voltages it can make a path from the clouds to ground.. and although it is not directed at something with wings.. it might well cause some impact on the way by. So even then best to keep clear of massive electron flow - even with perfect insulation


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Well.. yes that is a pretty good one for sure. However, God also made electricity .. and at high enough voltages it can make a path from the clouds to ground.. and although it is not directed at something with wings.. it might well cause some impact on the way by. So even then best to keep clear of massive electron flow - even with perfect insulation



Lmfao yup point taken also if you happen to have wings don't land on jacobs ladder lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXiOQCRiSp0

I worked around this stuff really had to pay close attention to minimum separation on these lines lol.


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## tree md (Jun 20, 2010)

When I first started out on my own I was dropping a large leader that I knew was going to be close to getting into a phase three line. I made a compression cut to steer the leader way from the line. I was using a piece of crap top handled Poulan in the tree and the saw stalled out in the cut. Instead of falling in the direction that I had intended weight overtook the leader and it came off falling straight down directly towards the powerline. I saw what was happening and jerked my saw out of the cut and stood back in my spurs where they were the only thing making contact with the tree. Just the tip of the leader barely brushed the line but I felt the electricity course through my body. I was sure glad I had my wings that day. I have never taken a chance like that since. If I'm unsure I will climb on up and make my cut where I am sure that I can clear the line.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 20, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmfao yup point taken also if you happen to have wings don't land on jacobs ladder lol.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXiOQCRiSp0
> 
> I worked around this stuff really had to pay close attention to minimum separation on these lines lol.



You do so! Here is tree limb across primary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTbtkVGIDW8&feature=related

The highest voltage I worked anywhere near was in northern Quebec - in early 1980's. Was almost 760kV. Pretty impressive stuff.. could stand under transmissions lines with a fluorescent tube.. and it would glow. (now I did not try that - but Hydro Quebec had photos of it) That was fed from the Manic 5 dam.. was up there for one summer early in career doing some work.

Highest tranmission lines we have around where I am now is 440kV. But only place where trees would get near that is when it enters or leaves transformer stations.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2010)

tree md said:


> When I first started out on my own I was dropping a large leader that I knew was going to be close to getting into a phase three line. I made a compression cut to steer the leader way from the line. I was using a piece of crap top handled Poulan in the tree and the saw stalled out in the cut. Instead of falling in the direction that I had intended weight overtook the leader and it came off falling straight down directly towards the powerline. I saw what was happening and jerked my saw out of the cut and stood back in my spurs where they were the only thing making contact with the tree. Just the tip of the leader barely brushed the line but I felt the electricity course through my body. I was sure glad I had my wings that day. I have never taken a chance like that since. If I'm unsure I will climb on up and make my cut where I am sure that I can clear the line.



So you had some meat or a rip I guess. The same limb and situation but done from limb above or out of the path of least resistance would have been a less dramatic experience. Make no mistake though if working around power long enough you likely will eventually experience indirect contact.


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## rob b (Jun 20, 2010)

There must be alot of bad tree guys out there. There is no magic doing danger trees by the wire. Dont hit it, dont touch it.All we have for special equipment is poles when we are climbing, and a stick saw in the bucket. If you know how to rig rope and cut its no big deal.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jun 20, 2010)

rob b said:


> There must be alot of bad tree guys out there. There is no magic doing danger trees by the wire. Dont hit it, dont touch it.All we have for special equipment is poles when we are climbing, and a stick saw in the bucket. If you know how to rig rope and cut its no big deal.




Well interesting philosophy. I was trained by utility company, now one may say they being a large company are over cautious. (same likely of any utility) We had over 50,000 employees at peak. 

At any rate, what you say can be true in lower voltages, assuming of course nothing goes wrong (limbs don’t break unexpectedly, ropes don’t fail, climbers don’t slip, whatever).

But it is sure as heck wrong at higher potential. You use that thought process around 44kv or higher and you going to be one bbq’d turkey real fast.

If you want to work around power lines, and stay alive, take advise from folks like rope "Make no mistake though if working around power long enough you likely will eventually experience indirect contact. " Believe me he knows what the heck he is saying. I have seen linemen make accidental contact, these are guys trained, with proper equipment and with years of experience working with power (not trees). It happens.. usually not serious when they do it as they have equipment to handle it.. none the less with utility even if an insulated boom touches energized primary unexpectedly it is considered a contact. You see the boom could break the primary, or could push it dangerously close to something else, so is still considered potentially dangerous.

There is no magic, you are right. This is science not magic. But it does require training, and proper equipment. If you have neither or these, think long and hard about working near higher voltages.


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## tree md (Jun 20, 2010)

rob b said:


> There must be alot of bad tree guys out there. There is no magic doing danger trees by the wire. Dont hit it, dont touch it.All we have for special equipment is poles when we are climbing, and a stick saw in the bucket. If you know how to rig rope and cut its no big deal.



The only magic is not to get fried while you're doing it. No room for error. I have seen plenty of climbers, experienced or not, make errors on a regular basis. No room for that on a hazard tree around high voltage. My old boss (and one of my mentors) found that out the hard way. And he had been in the biz for 40 years. He was good enough that he had made the money to buy the cranes and all the toys. Not borrow the money, made the money. I have tried to learn from his mistake and if someone can learn from one of my mistakes and stay alive that would make my millennium. If that makes me a "bad treeguy" then so be it...


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## rob b (Jun 20, 2010)

I have worked everything from services to 110kv. You need to respect it cause it will kill you. didnt mean to insult anyone. Just cant understand why everyone likes to bust on the line workers then run away from doing work around the wires. Three foot wood inside M.A.D is a daily chore. I dont know anyone who likes barewire 13.2 or 34.5kv that really sucks.


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## tree md (Jun 20, 2010)

I have nothing against line workers. Actually, I have seen them do some pretty awesome stuff. Res work and utility work are just two different animals. Homeowners often bust on them because they skin trees up with no regard for aesthetics. That often carries over to the res tree worker. But safety and utility is the mandate for the line worker.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 20, 2010)

rob b said:


> I have worked everything from services to 110kv. You need to respect it cause it will kill you. didnt mean to insult anyone. Just cant understand why everyone likes to bust on the line workers then run away from doing work around the wires. Three foot wood inside M.A.D is a daily chore. I dont know anyone who likes barewire 13.2 or 34.5kv that really sucks.



How long have you worked these voltages? Many things you likely don't know if it has not been at least five year minimum with ongoing training and you don't master it for several more years imho. I have worked 500 kv down to 440 and 880 and have supervised it also. I have seen some very close calls but fortunately no one under my watch had a serious accident. To remain that way over two decades of doing the ones no one else could do, It takes training and commitment to safe work operations and the grit to send someone down the road that interferes with it. I have had to fire men that had a poor attitude about safety as they could jeopardize it with just the wrong attitude. Staying out of the path of least resistance and training thoroughly for the things that can go wrong has to be exercised. It will prepare you when things do go bad and eliminate panic which can be more dangerous than the hazard. To say close proximity to energized conductors is no big deal is a death wish or at least a learning difficulty.


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## rob b (Jun 21, 2010)

About fifteen years working around them. If you respect what it will do you keep it in the corner of your mind. I am very safe just had a saftey audit in house and by the power company and had no problems. I work for a company and do sub work on the side for residential companies around the wires.


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