# Dead tree Theory



## xtremetrees (Feb 10, 2006)

I went up a dead pine today that still had its cones. I believe it was slash pine, anyway the cones were on but the bark in the upper canopy was comming off which to me is pretty uncommon. My spikes were sinking pretty deep as I went up and sticking. The sway and spar movement wasnt that bad and I just kept thinking when is one of the dead pines gonna fail at the base.


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## Diesel JD (Feb 10, 2006)

I've seen a bunch of dead pines like you describe. Iam not a pro and have never spiked up one, but I hear they are dangerous. The danger would seem to be though that as you go further up and it gets close to roitten it could snap off at teh top when you're in it, killing or injuring teh climber. The base would be the least of my worries. I have dug out a lot of these slash and longleaf stumps when I was growing up and let me say they are WELL anchored...I have seen pines lose their tops and limbs but the spar stay intact through some huge windstorms. Just the observations of a newbie. If I am wrong at any point let me know.


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## xtremetrees (Feb 10, 2006)

No Diesle this is what I am looking for.
I agree most dead pines do fail at the top, and normally when I top dead pines they break into many piences. however some do fail at the base. Im not sure of the species but Ive seen um ---trees i didnt climb over the power line failed at the base 2 weeks later as I returned to the neighborhood to do side work.

Do you think dead hardwoods are stronger than dead pines.

Could we go by the modulous of rupture or the BTU of firewood to determine strengths of dead trees?


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## clearance (Feb 10, 2006)

Climbing dead trees without being tied into something else when you are not sure if it going to fail or not is a fools game. I will not do it, stupid to risk your life because of someone elses negligence for not having the tree cut down as soon as it was dying. The homeowner or the utility is too blame for anything that happens. I fell a snag in a park and it went sideways, trashed the railings on a little bridge over a pond. Nothing else to tie into, kind of hard to directionally fall rotten wood. I phoned the parks arborist and told him right away. What could he say, they were always asking us to climb dead stuff (ISA certified city arborists of course) we would just write UNSAFE to CLIMB on the work order and fell it.


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## treeseer (Feb 10, 2006)

Cones can hold on long after the tree is unsafe to climb; no correlation there.


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## xtremetrees (Feb 12, 2006)

Well, if I can throwball a dead pine and try to pull it over and it wont pull even with two groundmen pulling it should be ok to climb right?

I speak frequently with climbers and alot of them they to think as they cimb :"light as a feather" I think this thinking process does help. The less movement the better as well. 

One of my concerns is where my steel core and spikes touch the tree. Im about 5'9 and weigh about 175. I try to adjust my steel core as close to the tree as possible. I do not want to keep my butt out on dead. This camming action could break the tree @ knee high.


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## xtremetrees (Feb 12, 2006)

In these situation which I find myself in weekly, Id like to have a breakaway safety. In case of failure I could seperate from the tree. But our industry is lackin in this reguard. I think crane climbers could use this breakaway safety as well.


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## xtremetrees (Feb 12, 2006)

I'll never forget the deadest pine I climbed. It was no kiddding about 85 feet tall. Alot of obstacles including house underneath. I limbed it up and about 70 feet not only the bark started comming off in my hands but the cambium pholem and zylem started comming off in fistfulls. I threw ball a tree far away and roped a top when I did all that was left on the rope was a 6 inch piece of firewood. The rope was stuck! Talk about dead!
I do not advise this to anyone and Clearance your right I and rolling the dice on this. Im gonna start taking down fences and throwing all I can.


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## xtremetrees (Feb 12, 2006)

Besides Im tired of shaking 3 hrs afterwards.:monkey:


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## rebelman (Feb 12, 2006)

I've used homemade breakaway safety belts. Plus one I ordered from Bishop, forget the brand, I think it was a bucket lanyard with a bungee that would break at 150 pounds. They give me some confidence when I'm tied to another tree and working in a tree that may fail.


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## xtremetrees (Mar 3, 2006)

Rebelman Kf done some work on this and see his yates screamers thread.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 3, 2006)

The strength against sway/snap is in the outer diameter; that is de-scribed as compromised. i'd want separate support or 2 to tie in to. Also, a high angle of support for rigging line; and run rigs for lowest impact/sway.

i would brace against lean as high as practical; if no lean; give it one with 1 line and then brace against that lean with 2nd line. The tensions of these 'guy wires' will brace against side pull and also compress down the spar for more fortification that way too. Perhaps main tie in would go below this point if no other overhead alternative; then a sling and carabiner every 4-6' above to reeve 1 side of DdRT through. This i think could give safety in some faiures of light stuff especially. You could run both lines thru; but a single line allows you to drop (with some force decreasing friction/drag) further and still be tied in i think.

i also consider bracing against rig direction, and lean backwards away from lean/rig direction; using bodyweight to as much as possible maintain inline CG forces over spar. Sometimes even trying to drop back suddenly to match/partially neutralize any impacting on the opposing sidein force ad timing as well. 

Not all weight is 'bad' weight. i also would consider leaving stabilizing weight(low) that is out of the way, to give more stabilization by maintaining lower CG of spar. Also, weight that is against lean and rig direction if in leveraged positions (high).

i too much of a wuss to consistently do stuff that leaves me shaking hours later!


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> The strength against sway/snap is in the outer diameter; that is de-scribed as compromised. i'd want separate support or 2 to tie in to. Also, a high angle of support for rigging line; and run rigs for lowest impact/sway.
> 
> i would brace against lean as high as practical; if no lean; give it one with 1 line and then brace against that lean with 2nd line. The tensions of these 'guy wires' will brace against side pull and also compress down the spar for more fortification that way too. Perhaps main tie in would go below this point if no other overhead alternative; then a sling and carabiner every 4-6' above to reeve 1 side of DdRT through. This i think could give safety in some faiures of light stuff especially. You could run both lines thru; but a single line allows you to drop (with some force decreasing friction/drag) further and still be tied in i think.
> 
> ...


I'll put it real simple; unless you are high tied into something other than the dead tree, without much swingfall danger, you are risking your life.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 4, 2006)

Even if tied in overhead; i think that some of these suggestions can make it even safer; perhaps even take larger loads to get out faster. Or, even it is green, safe but 'bouncy'/dynamic etc.; some of these things are easy enough to do; to give even wider and safer comfort margins and productions etc.

As many other things after the patterns are played with and become more familiar; one has more options for safety and production; and can also assess when easy or necessary enough to use; perhaps even speed things along.

i think especially because the first step here is subjective and sometimes impromptu(strength assessmeant); that recommending more options for more totally taking command beyond the assessed risk level is important, especially in Climber 101. i think they are worthy of strategical consideration, as to their net worth of usage per situation.

Rigging thru 2 crotches can take some force off a single crotch and give more friction. It also can change the direction of the force of the single crotch strategy. If this new direction is more inline with the support; the force relief is can be many times more favorable than just the angle between the supports and increased friction suggests; especially on this questionable or dynamic support. Many times you can use that technique strategy to make things safer in many conditions; as well as take more load confidentally. Prestrung just right, even use both ends of the line at different stages, giving 2 separate rigging points.

Especially when the support leverage from the useable axis/direction of the support diameter is not as favorable per the loading force/direction.


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## v8titan (Mar 4, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Even if tied in overhead; i think that some of these suggestions can make it even safer; perhaps even take larger loads to get out faster. Or, even it is green, safe but 'bouncy'/dynamic etc.; some of these things are easy enough to do; to give even wider and safer comfort margins and productions etc.
> 
> As many other things after the patterns are played with and become more familiar; one has more options for safety and production; and can also assess when easy or necessary enough to use; perhaps even speed things along.
> 
> ...




I don't know. I read your post three times TS. Maybe it's me, but I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


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## clearance (Mar 4, 2006)

Treespydy, what are you thinking, "even if tied in overhead" Of course tied in over head, no "IF" about it, then I think your rigging ideas would be a big help to stabilize the tree.


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## rebelman (Mar 4, 2006)

v8, part of it is rigging through multiple crotches. Say you are taking a sidetrunk with included bark and have to butt rope heavy pieces. You can run the let down rope through the straight side of the tree, the side you are tied into. This distributes the forces and lessens the chance of failure somewhere. I do this often, I think that was part of what spyder was saying.
Sometimes this can cause your butt rig to pinch.


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## pantheraba (Mar 4, 2006)

I recently took down a very dead large pine at our farm in S. Ga., near a dock.

I was able to use 2 opposite side trees for Tie In Points so that I could bail out if the tree failed. I also used a quick-release lanyard...I experimented with different hitches for the release. Then I practiced bailing out some as I ascended the dead tree. The arc of the bailout was clear of other trees and took me about 12 feet from the dead tree. Everything worked out OK, I just assessed the tree as I climbed and took out limbs in the top rather than the whole top. I was considering topping the tree until I saw how dead the tree was. My Klein spikes were completely buried in the punky trunkwood as I climbed, a new sensation for me.

Here is a link to a thread where I posted pictures and discussion.

http://tinyurl.com/q4swm

You have to go down about 7 posts to start the pictures.


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## pbtree (Mar 5, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Cones can hold on long after the tree is unsafe to climb; no correlation there.



Totally true...


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## xtremetrees (Mar 5, 2006)

I climbed and took out limbs in the top rather than the whole top. I was considering topping the tree until I saw how dead the tree was. My Klein spikes were completely buried in the punky trunkwood as I climbed,


I disagree with mass dampening totally, I'm sure many spikeless remvals are done top down and I cannot see shocking the tree below you. Plus you could make a booby trap of limbs below your feet.

Nice pics


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## xtremetrees (Mar 5, 2006)

Here is a pic whereas I rigging below my tie in point with a 1 inch line. The forces were so great that the tree squng so much applied alot of pressure(back force swing) to my climibing line that it pulled me up the spar I was safetied into. blue is climbing line, red is 1 inch rope green is me


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