# Mastermind Meets The MS660



## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

I've heard that the MS660 just doesn't respond that well to mods, and until the last few weeks I would have agreed. I've built several, and noted that the exhaust timing was too high......at least for a worksaw. 

The last two I've done I cut the squish band in order to lower the jug and change the exhaust timing to a more realistic number.

Here's a few pictures.

I'm of the opinion that the transfers are key to a strong running saw. They don't necessarily need to be wide.....just at the right height. These are at 120° ATDC. As you can see not much has been done to the lowers, just clipped the lip from the bottom.







The exhaust port hasn't been altered at all. No widening or raising.......totally stock. The timing on this port is at 100° ATDC






The exhaust flange was widened and the roof was raised. It was then tapered into the port at the cylinder wall.






The intake floor is at the stock height as well, though it is now at 85° ATDC. It was widened .050 or so on both sides and the roof of the port was raised about .050 The shape of the port has been squared up a bit as well to increase time/area. .050 was taken from the cylinder base. 






The muffler was gutted and the flange was matched to the exhaust flange. 






The trick on the 660 IMHO is in cutting the squish to both raise compression and alter the port timing numbers. This saw now has just over 200psi and is a beast.

[video=youtube;sBcB4wmzYMI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBcB4wmzYMI&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&feature=plcp[/video]


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## young (Mar 10, 2012)

this mastermind is sure a chainsaw whore. just saying. 



btw nothing wrong with whores in my book. just saying.


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## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

young said:


> this mastermind is sure a chainsaw whore. just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> btw nothing wrong with whores in my book. just saying.



Nope................He's a chainsaw slut. :msp_rolleyes:


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## young (Mar 10, 2012)

stihl jug? or mahle?


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## o8f150 (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Nope................He's a chainsaw slut. :msp_rolleyes:



chainsaw slut??? i heard just a slut:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


oh yes,,nice work as usual


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## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

young said:


> stihl jug? or mahle?



Stihl........


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## young (Mar 10, 2012)

i think i need to buy another saw so this mastermind joker can.........do stuff to it.:msp_ohmy::msp_ohmy:


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## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

young said:


> i think i need to buy another saw so this mastermind joker can.........do stuff to it.:msp_ohmy::msp_ohmy:



Yeah....like you need another saw.


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## young (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Yeah....like you need another saw.



is this not arborist site chainsaw forum?!?!?!?!? cause i swear someone just asked me if another saw was needed. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa YEA.:msp_razz:


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## booger1286 (Mar 10, 2012)

I really dont understand how anyone can gain anything by raising exhaust? Seems like that would just take away torque?I also dont understand how a long blowdown would ever be good unless you have very little crankcase pressure? Makes sense what you did with this saw i like it.


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## HorseFaller (Mar 10, 2012)

Very good stuff.


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## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> I really dont understand how anyone can gain anything by raising exhaust? Seems like that would just take away torque?I also dont understand how a long blowdown would ever be good unless you have very little crankcase pressure? Makes sense what you did with this saw i like it.



Hold up there. Raising the exhaust is very necessary on MOST saws I build. 

The new 660 just has too much exhaust timing from the factory to be able to raise it........it benefits from less exhaust.


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## fastLeo151 (Mar 10, 2012)

Randy your work sure is purdy!

Andrew


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## mopar1rules (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind, I agree that the ms660 comes with too wild of an exhaust duration. I personally like 155* for exh durations and never over 160*, if the saw is to be used for work. Your saw appears to run like mine. We did things different, but in the end both made it better than stock. In stock form I HATED my 660. I would have rather cut with my 044. Tonight here, I just finished a 046 project....machined a old mahle 066 piston, to work in a big bore and to help lower durations on port timing, as the numbers were higher than I like to see.


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## NORMZILLA44 (Mar 10, 2012)

Randy I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I am a big fan, great saw choice, great work! P.S You think the cylinders are still as high quality as the Mahle?


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## booger1286 (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Hold up there. Raising the exhaust is very necessary on MOST saws I build.
> 
> The new 660 just has too much exhaust timing from the factory to be able to raise it........it benefits from less exhaust.



Just asking for help and opinion here. If you take a cylinder and just raise exhaust without changing transfers, wouldnt you just be losing torque no matter what the exhaust timing is. My understanding during blowdown your just building up pressure that is acting against rotation of the crank until transfers open?


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## tree monkey (Mar 10, 2012)

gee randy where did you get the idea for this?
iv'e been doing this style of mod for 10 years and you take the credit.
what a guy


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## mopar1rules (Mar 10, 2012)

NORMZILLA44 said:


> Randy I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I am a big fan, great saw choice, great work! P.S You think the cylinders are still as high quality as the Mahle?



I know I'm not Randy, but felt like stating my opinion........I think the Stihl labeled cylinders, fall behind a Mahle labeled cylinder. Casting finish inside the ports and proper port chamfering are found on Mahle labeled cylinderz. My Stihl labeled 660 cylinder had little to no port chamfering. IMO, the kolbenschmidt cylinderz are worse for quality. Them remind me of cheap aftermarket crap.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> gee randy where did you get the idea for this?
> iv'e been doing this style of mod for 10 years and you take the credit.
> what a guy



My grandfather was doing all this back in the 50's & 60's. How about them apples?


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## blsnelling (Mar 11, 2012)

The only thing I saw Randy take credit for was making these saws run like they do. And, he did a good job of that.


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## booger1286 (Mar 11, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> Just asking for help and opinion here. If you take a cylinder and just raise exhaust without changing transfers, wouldnt you just be losing torque no matter what the exhaust timing is. My understanding during blowdown your just building up pressure that is acting against rotation of the crank until transfers open?



anybody


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## NORMZILLA44 (Mar 11, 2012)

mopar1rules said:


> I know I'm not Randy, but felt like stating my opinion........I think the Stihl labeled cylinders, fall behind a Mahle labeled cylinder. Casting finish inside the ports and proper port chamfering are found on Mahle labeled cylinderz. My Stihl labeled 660 cylinder had little to no port chamfering. IMO, the kolbenschmidt cylinderz are worse for quality. Them remind me of cheap aftermarket crap.


 Good stuff, and thank you I appreciate it. Yep just collecting opinions, and feedback. Been curious for awhile if the stock quality had changed.


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## tree monkey (Mar 11, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> My grandfather was doing all this back in the 50's & 60's. How about them apples?



i think your apples are rotten
so how do you like those apples?


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## HorseFaller (Mar 11, 2012)

Can't we all just get along.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=48.916304,-122.121212


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## Jacob J. (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> i think your apples are rotten
> so how do you like those apples?



Everyone has an opinion...



HorseFaller said:


> Can't we all just get along.



We could, it's just that some folks haven't realized yet that none of this is rocket science.


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## angelo c (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> i think your apples are rotten
> so how do you like those apples?



Well my grandfather was Al Gore and he invented the "innernet" so everybody could copy JJ's granpa's work....and if all you kids don't get along and play nice I'm gonna take my "innernet" and go home and none of y'all will be able to play...

now stop the name calling and go do some chainsawing.


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## fir (Mar 11, 2012)

I have 660 with muffler mod and big bore kit. would like to now what to do with baffle and how to port this saw. I have no how on porting mx bikes and worked in performance auto machine shop so I will understand.:msp_thumbup:


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## deye223 (Mar 11, 2012)

opcorn:


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## JakeLeg (Mar 11, 2012)

Looks and sounds great, Thanks for pics Randy.I can't hardly wait.


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> gee randy where did you get the idea for this?
> iv'e been doing this style of mod for 10 years and you take the credit.
> what a guy



For all I know you've been playing with your #### for ten years. Maybe you should post some of your work instead of spouting off at the mouth so ####ing much.


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## roger m (Mar 11, 2012)

when did they stop using mahle cylinders on 660's ?


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## mopar1rules (Mar 11, 2012)

roger m said:


> when did they stop using mahle cylinders on 660's ?



Good question. I would like to know the same, but my assumption is that they stopped midway thru the years of them being labeled "066".


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## Simonizer (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> For all I know you've been playing with your #### for ten years. Maybe you should post some of your work instead of spouting off at the mouth so ####ing much.


Ohhhhhhhhhh Jeezus. lol. I think the gloves are coming offopcorn:


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## mdavlee (Mar 11, 2012)

The mahle cylinders stopped sometime in 07-08 as far as I know. Some saws built in late 07 have the stihl cylinders.


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## FATGUY (Mar 11, 2012)

Randy, if the exhaust port itself was untouched, what advantage is it to rework the flange?


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> gee randy where did you get the idea for this?
> iv'e been doing this style of mod for 10 years and you take the credit.
> what a guy



You ain't the only one. Don't act like you invented it, cause you didn't. I've known about it for allot longer then I've known of you, just never bothered to do it.

You've only just come around here less then a year ago. 


Good work Randy, that saw runs nice.


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## wendell (Mar 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> You've only just come around here less then a year ago.



Looks more like 10 years to me. :msp_confused:


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## NORMZILLA44 (Mar 11, 2012)

While on the subject, and I have always been curios who was the first to invent, chainsaw porting and modifications? Was it the Walker family? = Walkerized


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## Jacob J. (Mar 11, 2012)

NORMZILLA44 said:


> While on the subject, and I have always been curios who was the first to invent, chainsaw porting and modifications? Was it the Walker family? = Walkerized



People have been modifying chainsaws since chainsaws were introduced. The real big push though I would say started in the mid-50's which coincided with the karting 
craze. A lot of what we know now about high-end two cycle performance was developed primarily due to karting. A lot of the karters here on the west coast also
happened to work in the woods so they took their modification ideas from kart engines and applied them to their saw engines. I know guys here locally that were 
making their own pistons and intakes back then, my grandpa happened to be one of them.


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## NORMZILLA44 (Mar 11, 2012)

Good deal J.J, I had never heard that before, and never would have put that together. I don't know why but never would have put 2 and 2 together, on kart engine improvements being associated with wood saws. Good deal I had never followed Kart engines much must be why. But I do think it is a cool sport, and there was some history here.


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> Randy, if the exhaust port itself was untouched, what advantage is it to rework the flange?



The muffler flange is smaller than the exhaust flange stock. When I remove the cage in the muffler I grind it out and in the process I widen the muffler inlet. Then I just match to two. 

Dang that was harder to explain then I thought it would be. 

I apologize for the reaction I had to treemonkey's kick in the shin. I normally wouldn't have said anything but I'm sick of him thinking everyone copies his work. It would be hard to copy something I've never seen. So far the only thing I've seen him post is just a bunch of BS. 

I build about four saws a week and try different stuff all the time. I did hear about Scott using a handheld cutter to cut the squish, but never saw the tool. Most everything I tried in the beginning so things I saw other people do, but today I'm doing things in a way that's based on what I see working on my saws. If he thinks he patented modding saws.........he best think again.


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

wendell said:


> Looks more like 10 years to me. :msp_confused:



When he joined means nothing. If you're not active here or post anything then???? I've been here since 07 and I'am a pretty active member, and never heard of the guy until recently. Not knocking him or anything, it just seems that he thinks he invented chainsaw mod's.


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## FATGUY (Mar 11, 2012)

makes perfect sense Randy. As far as modding saws I want you all to know that I invented it and everbody on this site copies me. I also invented gravity.


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## BIGBORE577 (Mar 11, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> makes perfect sense Randy. As far as modding saws I want you all to know that I invented it and everbody on this site copies me. I also invented gravity.



And Beer Chugging.


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## brokenbudget (Mar 11, 2012)

i invented and patented beer farts:hmm3grin2orange:
if you fart after a beer, you owe me money!:angry2:


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## FATGUY (Mar 11, 2012)

brokenbudget said:


> i invented and patented beer farts:hmm3grin2orange:
> if you fart after a beer, you owe me money!:angry2:



I've been giving the breweries a little chance to replenish their volume lately but I still think I owe you A LOT of money....


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

Sorry Randy, for contributing to jacking your thread. Just had to say something is all. 

Anyway, how about that 660.


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## lumberjackchef (Mar 11, 2012)

Ya, how bout a video. Oh another ?, is this a work saw?

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk


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## Johny Utah (Mar 11, 2012)

:chatter: that's what this thread is turning into. I love it, never has entertainment been so cheap and meaningless.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Sorry Randy, for contributing to jacking your thread. Just had to say something is all.
> 
> Anyway, how about that 660.



These threads just fade away anyhow Will. Yeah how about that 660? Leaving the exhaust untouched was another of those......."let's see what happens if" things. I can't tell any difference..... 



lumberjackchef said:


> Ya, how bout a video. Oh another ?, is this a work saw?



Oh yeah, just a work saw. The owner says he didn't use it a lot and wanted a runner. I hope he uses it more now. 



Johny Utah said:


> :chatter: that's what this thread is turning into. I love it, never has entertainment been so cheap and meaningless.:hmm3grin2orange:



You're spot on with that assessment friend. 

It's been one of those days here, so some entertainment would be a relief. I was doing some welding and had to switch out the wire in the mig........I had the wrong size. Off to town for .024, got it and back to welding I go.........ran out of shielding gas five minutes later.


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## Jwalker1911 (Mar 11, 2012)

Can I ask something that may sound dumb to several of you? How come the 066(or so Im told) seems to really take to the mods and people say the 660 doesnt...are they that much different?...and for the record..my great uncle was a logger in the PNW and had hotrod saws in the late 50's so Im pretty sure this isnt a fad of the last decade lol


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## UK Rich (Mar 11, 2012)

It really is the same on any forum. Keyboard warriors. 

You copied me, I copied you. What ever. My mother copied yours and had a son. He likes chainsaws, beer and curry. See a pattern?

Chicken or the egg? Adam and Eve. The Husqvarna evolved, grew legs and walked out of the sea.

What the fcuk am I going on about? Good work Randy. Nice saw.


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

Jwalker1911 said:


> Can I ask something that may sound dumb to several of you? How come the 066(or so Im told) seems to really take to the mods and people say the 660 doesnt...are they that much different?...and for the record..my great uncle was a logger in the PNW and had hotrod saws in the late 50's so Im pretty sure this isnt a fad of the last decade lol



The difference is in the factory port timing of the two saws.



UK Rich said:


> It really is the same on any forum. Keyboard warriors.
> 
> You copied me, I copied you. What ever. My mother copied yours and had a son. He likes chainsaws, beer and curry. See a pattern?
> 
> ...



Repped!!!!


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## Jwalker1911 (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The difference is in the factory port timing of the two saws.
> 
> ok thanks for that I thought they were quite similiar....hopefully my 066 turns out to be a runner lol


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## lumberjackchef (Mar 11, 2012)

Do you have your own lathe/mill to raise the roof of the cylinder? Any pics of the set up you could share? I dont have the equipment but the shop right across from mine just got a really big, nice lathe. He would be willing to do it but said hes not sure about the setup.

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk


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## ZeroJunk (Mar 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> When he joined means nothing. If you're not active here or post anything then???? I've been here since 07 and I'am a pretty active member, and never heard of the guy until recently. Not knocking him or anything, it just seems that he thinks he invented chainsaw mod's.



He may know everything there is to know. But, if he doesn't want to share who gives a ####.


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Leaving the exhaust untouched was another of those......."let's see what happens if" things. I can't tell any difference.....



Ya Randy, getting the port in the right place it a big one. Though widening does help. I did a 372BB last year, but used a 272 piston, but the skirts are narrow, didn't allow any room to widen the ports, but it got a popup and raised the ex, and lowered the intake and reworked the transfers, man it was a real runner, sold it to my buddie's tree service company, and he loves it, said its one of his strongest saws, easily outcuts a 7900 with 28" bars.



lumberjackchef said:


> Do you have your own lathe/mill to raise the roof of the cylinder? Any pics of the set up you could share? I dont have the equipment but the shop right across from mine just got a really big, nice lathe. He would be willing to do it but said hes not sure about the setup.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk



I don't want to speak for Randy, but he uses a hand held mandrel with a cutter on the end. 

This is how I've done it with my lathe.


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## JakeLeg (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> These threads just fade away anyhow Will. Yeah how about that 660? Leaving the exhaust untouched was another of those......."let's see what happens if" things. I can't tell any difference.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't used it much yet,but you can bet your A$$ I will be now,I've had a 660 before and just always seemed to prefer the 460s for what I do but I bet ya I'll put it to work.Thanks a million Randy can't wait to put em both to work.


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## ECsaws (Mar 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I don't want to speak for Randy, but he uses a hand held mandrel with a cutter on the end.
> 
> This is how I've done it with my lathe.



Hey Will where did ya get that top secret idea from :msp_wink: Looks good hard to beat good ole precision equipment


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

ECsaws said:


> Hey Will where did ya get that top secret idea from :msp_wink: Looks good hard to beat good ole precision equipment



ha ha.. LOL, yep it was sure top secret, just like Tree monkeys hand held cutter. I guess I shoulda gave Eric credit, he showed me that way. Works real well. 

Hell even Dennis Cullhoon even showed how he does it. Same way Eric showed me.

Hey, Eric, I was thinking of cutting the piston at 2°, and then cut the combustion chamber at 4°, what do ya think of that.


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## NORMZILLA44 (Mar 11, 2012)

Well shiat! In that case I have been handing out free advise for years, and good too!I think I helped reinvent the 2100 husky. But I'm not one to brag Quite a few copied my patened coolness though!


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## Jwalker1911 (Mar 11, 2012)

NORMZILLA44 said:


> Well shiat! In that case I have been handing out free advise for years, and good too!I think I helped reinvent the 2100 husky. But I'm not one to brag Quite a few copied my patened coolness though!



Better watch out for identity theft Norm there's a lot of people that wanna be you right now!


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

lumberjackchef said:


> Do you have your own lathe/mill to raise the roof of the cylinder? Any pics of the set up you could share? I dont have the equipment but the shop right across from mine just got a really big, nice lathe. He would be willing to do it but said hes not sure about the setup.





parrisw said:


> Ya Randy, getting the port in the right place it a big one. Though widening does help. I did a 372BB last year, but used a 272 piston, but the skirts are narrow, didn't allow any room to widen the ports, but it got a popup and raised the ex, and lowered the intake and reworked the transfers, man it was a real runner, sold it to my buddie's tree service company, and he loves it, said its one of his strongest saws, easily outcuts a 7900 with 28" bars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a damn fine lathe Will. They don't make em like that anymore.

I cut an 8" long mandrel from a Dupont material called Delrin. I normally make one end for say 50mm and the other 52mm. Then I mill a slot into the edge that will accept a HHS cutter made from Thinbit parting tool material. It's a bit tricky getting the cutter just the right length so that it cuts to the very edge of the bore and doesn't scratch the plating. The shape of the end of the cutter is the trick there though.

I clamp the mandrel in my vise and slip the jug down over it and turn it with some down pressure a turn or two, then take it off and clean out the shavings. After cutting the jug to within a few thousandths of the height I'm looking for a use sticky back paper on the end of the same mandrel to get any chatter marks out and polish the squish band. Then the same mandrel is chucked up in the lathe to cut the base of the cylinder to set the squish. 

I haven't done anything new or special here just used my head.


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## tlandrum (Mar 11, 2012)

doing it with a lathe doesnt make it better. it just means you spend more time setting up to accomplish the same thing.


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> That's a damn fine lathe Will. They don't make em like that anymore.
> 
> I cut an 8" long mandrel from a Dupont material called Delrin. I normally make one end for say 50mm and the other 52mm. Then I mill a slot into the edge that will accept a HHS cutter made from Thinbit parting tool material. It's a bit tricky getting the cutter just the right length so that it cuts to the very edge of the bore and doesn't scratch the plating. The shape of the end of the cutter is the trick there though.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I do love that lathe. Its a great old beast from the 50's. Its only 9" but gets the job done. I need to get a bigger boring bar though, that one works well, but its on the small side for cutting squish bands. 

You're way sounds good Randy, sounds like it works for you, and that's all that matters. 

Are you sure you didn't read Tree monkey's mind though? I mean you must be Psychic since you copied something that you've never seen before?


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> doing it with a lathe doesnt make it better. it just means you spend more time setting up to accomplish the same thing.



LOL, different strokes for different folks. That's a debate for a whole another thread.


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## NORMZILLA44 (Mar 11, 2012)

Jwalker1911 said:


> Better watch out for identity theft Norm there's a lot of people that wanna be you right now!


 LOL! I am good for entertainment That is a nice lathe, and that is why you guys are the pro's much of this is over my head, especially the stuff that involves alot of measuring and numbers.


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Thanks! I do love that lathe. Its a great old beast from the 50's. Its only 9" but gets the job done. I need to get a bigger boring bar though, that one works well, but its on the small side for cutting squish bands.
> 
> You're way sounds good Randy, sounds like it works for you, and that's all that matters.
> 
> Are you sure you didn't read Tree monkey's mind though? I mean you must be Psychic since you copied something that you've never seen before?



Well the fact of the matter is just this.......I bought a four jaw chuck, some aluminum plate, and some all thread. I started setting up to mount a jug on my lathe the way you, Eric, and Dennis have shown it done. Well I could see that this was a large pain in the ass, and remembered Scott bragging about doing it by hand with his super secret patented "tool". I thought about it for at least 30 seconds, milled a slot in my mandrel..............

You get my meaning??????


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## Jacob J. (Mar 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Its only 9" but gets the job done.



You're lucky- most Canadian men can't make that claim.


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## jeepyfz450 (Mar 11, 2012)

a friend of mine and fellow member here just got done doing the squish band and took down the base on my 046 no power tools involved just some sand paper. Different strokes for different folks but you have to use what you have.


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## booger1286 (Mar 11, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> Just asking for help and opinion here. If you take a cylinder and just raise exhaust without changing transfers, wouldnt you just be losing torque no matter what the exhaust timing is. My understanding during blowdown your just building up pressure that is acting against rotation of the crank until transfers open?



Anyone have any opinions on this or can tell me where my thinking is wrong?


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## gcdible1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Good work Randy, I want my 066 to look like that 660, or atleast better than it was....

Was a nice day here today, hope you atleast stopped to have a beer.:wink2:


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> Anyone have any opinions on this or can tell me where my thinking is wrong?



After many different saws on my bench I can only say that the more I learn the less I really understand. 

Blowdown is the time in crankshaft rotational degrees that the exhaust is open before the transfers begin to let air fuel mixture into the cylinder. Now what you may be thinking about is the time between the intake closing and the transfers opening. During that time the mixture is being compressed in the case. 

How many have checked that on a wheel?



gcdible1 said:


> Good work Randy, I want my 066 to look like that 660, or atleast better than it was....
> 
> Was a nice day here today, hope you atleast stopped to have a beer.:wink2:



I quit drinking many years ago..........but I did stop for an ice cream once today. 

We'll get that 066 up to speed for you.


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## gcdible1 (Mar 11, 2012)

Sounds good i do very little myself, mainly mountain dew it keeps me
Inlaws cashed in their Becks seed points and got a new tv and a ms290. Kinda cool, but would be nice if they couldve got a bigger saw. Bro in law was cutting down the willows growing by the pond. He was excited to use it. Whole gang helped out and got lots of sun.


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## tree monkey (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> After many different saws on my bench I can only say that the more I learn the less I really understand.
> 
> well randy that sounds like a problem for sure.
> thats the difference between me and you, i do understand what and why i do what i'm doing.
> ...


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## woodgrenade (Mar 11, 2012)

jeepyfz450 said:


> a friend of mine and fellow member here just got done doing the squish band and took down the base on my 046 no power tools involved just some sand paper. Different strokes for different folks but you have to use what you have.



Hey man,

Any pics or more details of the set up?

Thanks :msp_smile:


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## booger1286 (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> After many different saws on my bench I can only say that the more I learn the less I really understand.
> 
> Blowdown is the time in crankshaft rotational degrees that the exhaust is open before the transfers begin to let air fuel mixture into the cylinder. Now what you may be thinking about is the time between the intake closing and the transfers opening. During that time the mixture is being compressed in the case.
> 
> ...



I know what blowdown is but i forgot the fact that the intake is still open during this time. Wouldnt this mean that between the transfers opening and the intake closing your losing pressure out the intake? Wouldnt a reed cage valve stop this?
I believe its all about crankcase pressure and how much velocity you can get on the intake for more fuel and having enough pressure to raise transfers and push more fuel through them. 
Just wanting to hear some opinions, i appreciate your reply Randy.


----------



## Bowtie (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> Mastermind said:
> 
> 
> > After many different saws on my bench I can only say that the more I learn the less I really understand.
> ...


----------



## booger1286 (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> Mastermind said:
> 
> 
> > After many different saws on my bench I can only say that the more I learn the less I really understand.
> ...


----------



## gcsupraman (Mar 11, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> Mastermind said:
> 
> 
> > After many different saws on my bench I can only say that the more I learn the less I really understand.
> ...


----------



## FATGUY (Mar 11, 2012)

I've seen this soap opera before. A successful saw modder gets "poo-poo'd" on for doing us a favor and posting his knowledge, work and experience. :bang: This gets old fast. 
Randy, ty very much for sharing your work with us, please continue to do so.


----------



## Jacob J. (Mar 11, 2012)

woodgrenade said:


> Hey man,
> 
> Any pics or more details of the set up?
> 
> Thanks :msp_smile:



Years ago, one guy just epoxied some emery cloth to the top of an old piston that was the same diameter as his cylinder, 
and used that set-up to clean up his squish band. It worked pretty well.


----------



## tlandrum (Mar 11, 2012)

theres always more than one way to skin a cat and im pretty sure none of us saw builders are doing anything that hasnt been done before whether it was done on saws .rc's, mx bikes etc etc etc


----------



## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Well the fact of the matter is just this.......I bought a four jaw chuck, some aluminum plate, and some all thread. I started setting up to mount a jug on my lathe the way you, Eric, and Dennis have shown it done. Well I could see that this was a large pain in the ass, and remembered Scott bragging about doing it by hand with his super secret patented "tool". I thought about it for at least 30 seconds, milled a slot in my mandrel..............
> 
> You get my meaning??????



Ya, I get it. But its not as hard to setup as you might think, the first time I did it, well, the only time so far, it took me close to an hour, and that included figuring it all out, now I can say I can probably half that for the next time, since I have a little better idea which way to go, and after multiple times, I'm sure I can cut it down even more. Me I just feel better doing it on a lathe, and getting the squish band to a nice even taper, I don't know that I could get it to a perfect taper with a hand ground tool.



tree monkey said:


> well randy that sounds like a problem for sure.
> thats the difference between me and you, i do understand what and why i do what i'm doing.
> 
> 
> i wish you good luck with your ventures



Well, that's very good for you, but from what I've seen your saws don't stand out anymore then any others saws. I just love people that go around telling everyone how great they are.


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> theres always more than one way to skin a cat and im pretty sure none of us saw builders are doing anything that hasnt been done before whether it was done on saws .rc's, mx bikes etc etc etc



Naa, your wrong Terry, Douchemonkey invented it all.


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## parrisw (Mar 11, 2012)

Oh for anyone that wants to see Treemonkey's squish cutter.

Not the greatest pic but here it is none the less.

Slot milled in the end and maybe looks like a 1/4" hss bit.


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## roger m (Mar 11, 2012)

never heard of douchemonkey does he resemble this mugshot? i still have not figured this picture thing out but if somebody recognizes this guy feel free to post:msp_biggrin:


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## Johny Utah (Mar 11, 2012)

opcorn::chatter: I'm loven it boys. Keep it up, I've only pissed myself 2 times laughing so hard.


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## Mastermind (Mar 11, 2012)

No need for throwing insults at Scott here guys. If he feels that I've stolen his technology and needs to vent I can handle it. I've heard that he's a damn fine guy that would help a man anyway he could. The internet just brings out the raw side of folks at times.

I'm still learning more about these little engines everyday and having a blast doing it. Being able to work in a small shop here on the place instead of having to drive all over creation building houses is a blessing for me. I just want to do a good job, and keep the folks I build saws for happy.......none of this other crap really matters.


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## Andyshine77 (Mar 11, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> I've seen this soap opera before. A successful saw modder gets "poo-poo'd" on for doing us a favor and posting his knowledge, work and experience. :bang: This gets old fast.
> Randy, ty very much for sharing your work with us, please continue to do so.



Same old #### different builder.


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## FATGUY (Mar 11, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Same old #### different builder.



yup


----------



## tree monkey (Mar 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> No need for throwing insults at Scott here guys. If he feels that I've stolen his technology and needs to vent I can handle it. I've heard that he's a damn fine guy that would help a man anyway he could. The internet just brings out the raw side of folks at times.
> 
> I'm still learning more about these little engines everyday and having a blast doing it. Being able to work in a small shop here on the place instead of having to drive all over creation building houses is a blessing for me. I just want to do a good job, and keep the folks I build saws for happy.......none of this other crap really matters.



i agree with randy 
this is between us and realy shoud not consern anyone else
sorry for posting


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## roger m (Mar 12, 2012)

i don't like seeing people bustin on somebody else for helping other people understand how things work,i don't figure anybody here has invented a procedure that has not been done before,they might have refined it maybe,i have appreciated everything Randy has posted and i found it informative,Brad S helped me understand saw tuning which i greatly appreciated,as soon as i wear my new saws out they will go to these guys for upgrades,these guys have been a very big help to me,thanks guys:msp_thumbup:


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## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> i agree with randy
> this is between us and realy shoud not consern anyone else
> sorry for posting



It's all good here Scott.


----------



## parrisw (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> i agree with randy
> this is between us and realy shoud not consern anyone else
> sorry for posting



The thing is Scott, nothing on this forum is between two people. When you post things on an open public forum for all to see, you better be ready for others to jump in, that's just the way it is. Either keep it civil or say nothing if you don't want people to pile on. Just my 2c.


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## Jakers (Mar 12, 2012)

wow some people get wound up over this stuff. its entertainingopcorn:
dont sweat it randy, i got your back from about 1000 miles away


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## fastLeo151 (Mar 12, 2012)

Randy,
Your a stand up man that many like and respect (including me). Remind me not to start a fight with you, you have to many friends it seems. lol

Btw. you have me looking for a 066/660 to send you. 

Andrew


----------



## tree monkey (Mar 12, 2012)

parrisw said:


> The thing is Scott, nothing on this forum is between two people. When you post things on an open public forum for all to see, you better be ready for others to jump in, that's just the way it is. Either keep it civil or say nothing if you don't want people to pile on. Just my 2c.



ya i can see that.but when the table turns you call it cheerleading.
and thats what i see you doing here.
no matter how mutch i've tryed to help you, show you, or tell you your the first to say it won't work. or can't be done.
what randy is doing is prof that what i've been doing for ten years works
he knows it and so do you


----------



## fastLeo151 (Mar 12, 2012)

:sword:


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## deye223 (Mar 12, 2012)

it's only 16:00 here i'm going out to cut some wood 

PS with a masterminded MS261


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## bryanr2 (Mar 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> No need for throwing insults at Scott here guys. If he feels that I've stolen his technology and needs to vent I can handle it. I've heard that he's a damn fine guy that would help a man anyway he could. The internet just brings out the raw side of folks at times.
> 
> I'm still learning more about these little engines everyday and having a blast doing it. Being able to work in a small shop here on the place instead of having to drive all over creation building houses is a blessing for me. I just want to do a good job, and keep the folks I build saws for happy.......none of this other crap really matters.



I cant get saws to you fast enough Randy. Have three more to do at the moment. I read on this site for over a year before I ever posted. You can learn a lot about people when you keep your mouth shut and read. I formed opinions and chose my builder based on what I read and saw. I dont care for secrets- it's hard earned money I spend on these saws and I appreciate the build threads, even though I understand very little of what is said. Your build quality is 'second to None' but what I respect most about you is the person you show yourself to be- you have class. I love the saws you build for me, but I cherish our friendship the most. That said, how is my Johnny coming? I am bringing two next time (gas is getting more and more expensive- gotta make the trip count) I'm glad your humble enough to express that you are still learning. I have plenty of saws for you to learn on.


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## bcorradi (Mar 12, 2012)

An 066/660 is a really good saw even in stock form imo


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## parrisw (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> ya i can see that.but when the table turns you call it cheerleading.
> and thats what i see you doing here.
> no matter how mutch i've tryed to help you, show you, or tell you your the first to say it won't work. or can't be done.
> what randy is doing is prof that what i've been doing for ten years works
> he knows it and so do you



WHAT???????????????? I've never said anything can't be done, I've never said anything wont work. You've very rarely tried to help me, you've given me a few tips that's about it. I don't cheer lead for anyone. There is a huge difference in what I was saying in this thread and what you're boy Maclearn was saying in the other thread, he's just a fool that runs around calling people names.

I'm dying for you to show me some examples of where I've said something you've told me doesn't work.


----------



## tree monkey (Mar 12, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Naa, your wrong Terry, Douchemonkey invented it all.



not hard to find at all


----------



## parrisw (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> not hard to find at all



Find what? How's that something I told you wont work?

The way I took your statement, was, you tried to help me with saws, and I then turned around and flat out told you it wont work? Am I wrong?

If your talking about name calling then ya, guilty as charged, but hardly the same as your boy.


----------



## tree monkey (Mar 12, 2012)

you sure you want to go there?


----------



## parrisw (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> you sure you want to go there?



I duno, I don't really want to ruin Randy's thread anymore.

Do you like remember everyone's posts or something? I must have a bad memory.


----------



## parrisw (Mar 12, 2012)

Anyway, we've been through all these same arguments before, and it went nowhere. We could just leave it or carry on, I think we just let it go. 

One piece of advice, Maclaren makes you look bad, and I'm not the only one that see's it that way.


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## tree monkey (Mar 12, 2012)

maybe, maybe not. either way he's a freind of mine and i don't tell my freinds what or what not to do or say.
as far as me not showing my work i realy don't understand what you can learn from a pic of a cylinder.
View attachment 228524

or a piston
View attachment 228525

why did i do that? was it to detune the saw? no i got good gains from it. do you understand how, or why?


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## AUSSIE1 (Mar 12, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Its only 9" but gets the job done.



It's enough for a pretty serious "turkey slap" Will!


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## splitpost (Mar 12, 2012)

AUSSIE1 said:


> It's enough for a pretty serious "turkey slap" Will!



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> maybe, maybe not. either way he's a freind of mine and i don't tell my freinds what or what not to do or say.
> as far as me not showing my work i realy don't understand what you can learn from a pic of a cylinder.
> View attachment 228524
> 
> ...



Many guys have asked you to show us some of what you do. You post these two pictures of a saw that you've posted pics of before, and then rather than explain what you are doing, you ask questions about the pics in a way that seems condescending and arrogant.

I would venture that you lowered the compression to pipe the engine, but have no way of knowing what is happening in the build just from those two pics......I see the boost ports and the intake plate in the background but what else is going on?????? Is the saw running on gas, on pipe, on nitro methane, or on canola oil and beer farts??????????? 

You accused me of taking credit for your ideas............I was building saws with popups before I ever saw you post for the first time. I've tried very hard to get along with you but you seem intent of slandering me. Cutting the squish band is nothing new......and I didn't really see any benefit from doing it aside from my customers wanting it done, until I realized that I could use it to lower the exhaust on some newer saw with too much timing in that area.

I would love to see you post a build and explain your methods Scott. I don't think that would make people try to steal any of your ideas, it would instead show people that you do good work and are willing to take the time to show what you can do and why you do it.

If I sent a saw to someone I would want to know what they are planning to do to it. I figure others are the same way, and without me posting some of my work along with explanations of the "why" I doubt I would stay as busy as I do. 

Paul goes on and on about his TreeMonkeyed 660. I bet it is a running dude. I for one have no doubt that the work you do is top notch.......but the posts you make insulting others has done nothing but hurt you.

In this thread I took the time to post a few pictures and all the timing numbers with an explanation that cutting the squish is what helped me lower the exhaust.......what have you done here that really helped anyone learn to build a stronger saw? I've never seen a post from you that explained anything to anyone........but maybe I missed it. 





Mastermind said:


> I've heard that the MS660 just doesn't respond that well to mods, and until the last few weeks I would have agreed. I've built several, and noted that the exhaust timing was too high......at least for a worksaw.
> 
> The last two I've done I cut the squish band in order to lower the jug and change the exhaust timing to a more realistic number.
> 
> ...





fastLeo151 said:


> Randy,
> Your a stand up man that many like and respect (including me). Remind me not to start a fight with you, you have to many friends it seems. lol
> 
> Btw. you have me looking for a 066/660 to send you.
> ...



I just try to help explain what little I know. It seems that I piss some folks off but most enjoy the ride. 



bryanr2 said:


> I cant get saws to you fast enough Randy. Have three more to do at the moment. I read on this site for over a year before I ever posted. You can learn a lot about people when you keep your mouth shut and read. I formed opinions and chose my builder based on what I read and saw. I dont care for secrets- it's hard earned money I spend on these saws and I appreciate the build threads, even though I understand very little of what is said. Your build quality is 'second to None' but what I respect most about you is the person you show yourself to be- you have class. I love the saws you build for me, but I cherish our friendship the most. That said, how is my Johnny coming? I am bringing two next time (gas is getting more and more expensive- gotta make the trip count) I'm glad your humble enough to express that you are still learning. I have plenty of saws for you to learn on.



Thanks for the kind works my friend. The piston, seals, fuel line, etc.......are here and the clutch cover is on the way. I'll be starting on it in a few days. I'll put it all back together stock and run at least two tanks thru it before doing any mods. I want to be sure all it's demons have been exorcized. The bar stud will have to be fixed too. After thinking about all we are doing it would be crazy to leave it the way it was........


----------



## Jwalker1911 (Mar 12, 2012)

Mastermind those pictures are very appreciated by most Im sure....they add a certain coolness factor even for me and I dont truly understand it but it sure helps...If I scrape the funds together to have you port a saw for me I'd sure want pics just for bragging rights if nothing else......


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## lumberjackchef (Mar 12, 2012)

Jwalker1911 said:


> Mastermind those pictures are very appreciated by most Im sure....they add a certain coolness factor even for me and I dont truly understand it but it sure helps...If I scrape the funds together to have you port a saw for me I'd sure want pics just for bragging rights if nothing else......



Yes much appreciated, for all of us who are learning to build faster saws on our own. I know I would probably never be able to afford a nice ported saw if I had to scrape the funds up, and all those pics and info add up to the most major cool factor to all those who so selflessly share it. 

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk


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## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

lumberjackchef said:


> Yes much appreciated, for all of us who are learning to build faster saws on our own. I know I would probably never be able to afford a nice ported saw if I had to scrape the funds up, and all those pics and info add up to the most major cool factor to all those who so selflessly share it.



I remember being broke and wanting to build a ported saw.


----------



## mt.stalker (Mar 12, 2012)

Randy , because of and with the help of yours and Brads and others posts/pics , I am currently porting my Jonnyred 510 and Husky 371 . Albeit , I'm a little slow @ completing them . My hat's off to all of you men who share your knowledge , for our relaxation and entertainment .
You sir are one class act .  :msp_thumbup:


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## Scooterbum (Mar 12, 2012)

Well it's obvious where the "Class" light is shining. Keep up the good work buddy it'll come back tenfold.


Whenever ya' get a slow point I want to send a powerhead your way for a Master Massage.......


----------



## Jacob J. (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> why did i do that? was it to detune the saw? no i got good gains from it. do you understand how, or why?



Some of the later Power Products engines were set-up that way. Part of the reason was to give more surface area for the charge to push against
after firing and to retain the charge longer on the down stroke. The heads would extend further down into the cylinder and the combustion chamber would
have a somewhat matching profile.


----------



## parrisw (Mar 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> maybe, maybe not. either way he's a freind of mine and i don't tell my freinds what or what not to do or say.
> as far as me not showing my work i realy don't understand what you can learn from a pic of a cylinder.
> View attachment 228524
> 
> ...



I wouldn't have friends like that, he seems to be your only one. 

You've posted those crappy blurry pics before so those are nothing new. And no you can't learn much from just looking at someones pic, you can pick up a few things, but all in all, we just like show pictures of what we do, and talk about it.


----------



## jropo (Mar 12, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> I know what blowdown is but i forgot the fact that the intake is still open during this time. Wouldnt this mean that between the transfers opening and the intake closing your losing pressure out the intake? Wouldnt a reed cage valve stop this?
> I believe its all about crankcase pressure and how much velocity you can get on the intake for more fuel and having enough pressure to raise transfers and push more fuel through them.
> Just wanting to hear some opinions, i appreciate your reply Randy.



I don't know if this will help you or not, but most of what I have seen/ used that has reeds was a faster unit than its non-reed counterpart.
Most reed models that I've seen were case induction, why I don't know.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

Scooterbum said:


> Well it's obvious where the "Class" light is shining. Keep up the good work buddy it'll come back tenfold.
> 
> 
> Whenever ya' get a slow point I want to send a powerhead your way for a Master Massage.......



I owe you a ported saw..............

Send it for the work anytime.


----------



## Johny Utah (Mar 12, 2012)

I think it's great that you guys post pics and explanations. Some guys who work on bigger stuff never tell you nothing. Simonizer is one of those guys, he won't even answer basic questions. I don't understand what the big secret is, it's not like saw racing is a competitive money making sport for most of us guys here. We just like to fart around with them on limited budgets.:msp_smile:


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Mar 12, 2012)

Awwwhhhh!.....the chainsaw wars......Love it!......Treemonk.....Don't give'm nothing.....next thing you know the Ohio boys will be claiming you stole there stuff.......Hahahahahahaha!


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## mdavlee (Mar 12, 2012)

Woods port saw I don't know why people really care what they look like. Its hard to really gain anything from pictures besides port shapes anyway. Race saws where people are spending several $x000s on them I could understand those people not wanting it shown.


----------



## Scooterbum (Mar 12, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Awwwhhhh!.....the chainsaw wars......Love it!......Treemonk.....Don't give'm nothing.....next thing you know the Ohio boys will be claiming you stole there stuff.......Hahahahahahaha!



Don't go poking a stick at the Ol' Ohio Mafia now. It's been pretty quite around here lately.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Mar 12, 2012)

i love these build threads ,keep up the good work ,and please dont stop posting due to some insults .always wanting to learn and these threads are great information tools


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## wyk (Mar 12, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Awwwhhhh!.....the chainsaw wars......Love it!......Treemonk.....Don't give'm nothing.....next thing you know the Ohio boys will be claiming you stole there stuff.......Hahahahahahaha!



I'd love to see one of the hot saw guys show a step by step of porting one of the newer 2stroke bike motors with injection and ports all over the place. That makes chainsaw porting look like child's play.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

wyk said:


> I'd love to see one of the hot saw guys show a step by step of porting one of the newer 2stroke bike motors with injection and ports all over the place. That makes chainsaw porting look like child's play.



That would be too cool Wes. Maybe we can talk Dennis into showing us woodticks how it's done in the big leagues.


----------



## jropo (Mar 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> That would be too cool Wes. Maybe we can talk Dennis into showing us woodticks how it's done in the big leagues.



HAHAHAHA Good luck.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> HAHAHAHA Good luck.



That 880 build he did a few weeks ago was very cool.


----------



## jropo (Mar 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> That 880 build he did a few weeks ago was very cool.



Very cool! Mind blowing for someone like me.
As you know I'm new to all of this but, I think DC has been around long enough to know what to show and what not to show.
I'm sure there is something to this.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> Very cool! Mind blowing for someone like me.
> As you know I'm new to all of this but, I think DC has been around long enough to know what to show and what not to show.
> I'm sure there is something to this.



Welp Dennis is involved in serious racing where tenths of a second really matter. I just build saws that cut wood or for cats to play with. Big difference.


----------



## jropo (Mar 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Welp Dennis is involved in serious racing where tenths of a second really matter. I just build saws that cut wood or for cats to play with. Big difference.



I like and enjoy your builds/threads and your modesty. It shows me that your are a good guy, and a good person to do business with.
I'm sure if you ask your clients your saws are the next best thing.

Now, where are my pom pom's?:msp_biggrin:


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> I like and enjoy your builds/threads and your modesty. It shows me that your are a good guy, and a good person to do business with.
> I'm sure if you ask your clients your saws are the next best thing.
> 
> Now, where are my pom pom's?:msp_biggrin:



It's just real easy for guys to get to thinking building a single cylinder two-stroke engine is rocket science. 

Perspective............that's what is needed. Show us a hot saw build Dennis.


----------



## bryanr2 (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> I like and enjoy your builds/threads and your modesty. It shows me that your are a good guy, and a good person to do business with.
> I'm sure if you ask your clients your saws are the next best thing.
> 
> Now, where are my pom pom's?:msp_biggrin:



I dont know a higher caliber individual than Randy. I have a high regard for him as a person and a deep respect for his work. The stickers don't hurt anything either! His work reflects his person... of the highest quality.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Mar 12, 2012)

I have the feeling you are desiring some of randys special stickers.....


----------



## bryanr2 (Mar 12, 2012)

fastLeo151 said:


> I have the feeling you are desiring some of randys special stickers.....




Look at my sig.... been there done that. I'm an extremist though- there is never enough. Of course, the fact that I heard there is a newly designed sticker gets my attention. Has anyone seen one of these new stickers yet?


----------



## wendell (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> I like and enjoy your builds/threads and your *modesty*.



Too bad you didn't know him in the old days before he left his friends behind on his way to his new found fame.

Still makes me tear up just thinking about it.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

wendell said:


> Too bad you didn't know him in the old days before he left his friends behind on his way to his new found fame.
> 
> Still makes me tear up just thinking about it.



I wish I had more time for posting like in the old days Wendell. I'm still in the shop.......posting when I should be grinding.


----------



## jropo (Mar 12, 2012)

wendell said:


> Too bad you didn't know him in the old days before he left his friends behind on his way to his new found fame.
> 
> Still makes me tear up just thinking about it.




I don't think I wanna know. 
:hmm3grin2orange:
But he does seem like the type of fella that would drop in on a occasion to see whats up.


----------



## jropo (Mar 12, 2012)

fastLeo151 said:


> I have the feeling you are desiring some of randys special stickers.....



I think he even has a spring special going on right now, if you act fast. You buy a sticker and get a free woods port.:msp_biggrin:


----------



## wendell (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> But he does seem like the type of fella that would drop in on a occasion to see whats up.



No, he's more of the type that drops in on occasion to beg for rep. 

Just kiddin', brody, wish you were coming up to the GTG this weekend.



Well, actually on second thought.....


----------



## Andyshine77 (Mar 12, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Awwwhhhh!.....the chainsaw wars......Love it!......Treemonk.....Don't give'm nothing.....next thing you know the Ohio boys will be claiming you stole there stuff.......Hahahahahahaha!



Awww #### where's all my stuff???????????????? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


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## FATGUY (Mar 12, 2012)

hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahaha hahahahahahha hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahha


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## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

wendell said:


> No, he's more of the type that drops in on occasion to beg for rep.
> 
> Just kiddin', brody, wish you were coming up to the GTG this weekend.
> 
> ...



Rep me you scurvy dog. :msp_sneaky:


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## Jwalker1911 (Mar 12, 2012)

jropo said:


> I think he even has a spring special going on right now, if you act fast. You buy a sticker and get a free woods port.:msp_biggrin:



bettin those stickers have a hefty pricetag.....which wouldnt be bad if they had topless women on them...I'd buy at least 5


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## bryanr2 (Mar 12, 2012)

What does the new sticker look like?


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## Mastermind (Mar 12, 2012)

bryanr2 said:


> What does the new sticker look like?



I've not had time to go pick them up......


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## wendell (Mar 12, 2012)

I wonder why I didn't get a sticker?!?

I guess I see where I rate. :msp_angry:


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## blsnelling (Mar 12, 2012)

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. Rock on fellow OKI Diaper Posse members! We're still catchin' all the crap you can throw our way, and disposing of it with ease:big grin:


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## Dennis Cahoon (Mar 13, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. Rock on fellow OKI Diaper Posse members! We're still catchin' all the crap you can throw our way, and disposing of it with ease:big grin:



......and still can't build a saw much better than stock......Hahahahahahaha!


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## husq2100 (Mar 13, 2012)

hey Dennis, stop rounding up the culls and email me those pics!


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## deye223 (Mar 13, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> That 880 build he did a few weeks ago was very cool.



still waiting for the vid or did i miss some thing


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## husq2100 (Mar 13, 2012)

deye223 said:


> still waiting for the vid or did i miss some thing



I dont think you will see one untill it races. Fair enough to. It has been built for a guy here that is going to compete at our top level. Im sure he will get it, break it in and get use to it. Racing is one thing where info is small and results are loud. Im sure this saw will see some trophies.


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## FATGUY (Mar 13, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> ......and still can't build a saw much better than stock......Hahahahahahaha!



....Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!


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## Dennis Cahoon (Mar 13, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> ....Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!



Take a breath!......before you have a stroke FATGUY.


----------



## tree monkey (Mar 14, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> tree monkey said:
> 
> 
> > Tell us how it is then? Tell me about crankcase pressures and velocity? Do you have formulas for this?
> ...


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 14, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> i'm not posting here to start a fight but to try and answer a?
> 
> you need enough blow down to get rid of all the presure in the cylinder before the transfers open.
> or you will get back stuffing down the transfers.
> ...



Thanks for that explanation Scott. That fighting crap is for the birds........we can't learn anything that way.

Blowdown time is one of those things that I had trouble understanding in the beginning. 

It seems odd that some engines need more time than others, take the Dolmar 7900 for instance.......30 degrees stock and they run great that way. 

You nailed when you said the torque is the harder to get......and it's torque that pulls the chips. :msp_wink:


----------



## barneyrb (Mar 14, 2012)

What so many people don't understand is that HP is a *calculation* and not a measurement.

HP=tq x rpm/5252


----------



## Johny Utah (Mar 14, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> ......and still can't build a saw much better than stock......Hahahahahahaha!



Please divulge this information, would really appreciate it.

What do you recommend for port timing numbers for a 460 magnum?

Anybody else please chime in with your recommendations also.:msp_smile:


----------



## Johny Utah (Mar 14, 2012)

Does anybody know much about crankcase stuffing to boost primary compression velocity up into the transfers? Simonizer had mentioned one time that they use that method for bigger 2-stroke engines, but he never went into much detail.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Mar 14, 2012)

Johny Utah said:


> Please divulge this information, would really appreciate it.



Ask Brad.....Head of the Diaper Posse......Hahahahahaha!


Most bike engines have full-circle cranks. Some have holes drilled in the crank wheels. Filling the crank wheels with whatever(epoxy) is called stuffing the crank......adding crankcase pressure. Most chainsaws have t-cranks,(not full-circle), which gives you less case pressure. This is my quick guess of what Simon was talking about.


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## madhatte (Mar 14, 2012)

Johny Utah said:


> Does anybody know much about crankcase stuffing to boost primary compression velocity up into the transfers?



That was big business in the old Mac kart motors. Hunt around in the Mac sticky and I'm sure you'll find plenty on the subject.


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## blsnelling (Mar 14, 2012)

I doubt you would want the numbers out of the fastest saw at the 460 build off:jester:


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## jropo (Mar 14, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Thanks for that explanation Scott. That fighting crap is for the birds........we can't learn anything that way.
> 
> Blowdown time is one of those things that I had trouble understanding in the beginning.
> 
> ...



I agree, though entertaining, the fighting crap is for the birds on most cases. 
Unless its about a method/theroy. Sometimes it brings more information to the table to prove the other person wrong.
Though heated and alot name calling was used, I learned ALOT about carb. tuning in the blueprint thread. (And I thank the two parties for that.)
I just watched a show on Speed last night (Camero/Mustang) and the same sort of name calling/slamming was going on, reminded me of A.S. 
The rivalries can be productive, it seems like it can help push someone to out do someone and further the pushing of the envelope.
Thus 1000hp street cars, V8 chainsaws, ect.
Its the straight up slander/ cyber bullying that I don't care for, and has a destuctive potential for this site.


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## Johny Utah (Mar 14, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I doubt you would want the numbers out of the fastest saw at the 460 build off:jester:



Oh come on now Brad. GIMEE GIMEE :msp_smile:


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## Mastermind (Mar 14, 2012)

Johny Utah said:


> Oh come on now Brad. GIMEE GIMEE :msp_smile:



Strong running 460 here......

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/193562.htm

The numbers are all there.....


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## blsnelling (Mar 14, 2012)

To put it in a nut shell, raise the transfers to give you 16° of blowdown. Lower the intake to 80°-85°. Advance the ignition timing 1/3 the width of the key. All the details are in the thread on the Mission Backpack build thread.


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## Terry Syd (Mar 14, 2012)

" I learned ALOT about carb. tuning in the blueprint thread. " I must have missed that one, anybody have a link?


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## Jacob J. (Mar 14, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Strong running 460 here......
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/193562.htm
> 
> The numbers are all there.....



I'll bet old J is having a good time with that saw...


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## HEAVY FUEL (Mar 14, 2012)

Terry Syd said:


> " I learned ALOT about carb. tuning in the blueprint thread. " I must have missed that one, anybody have a link?



Like YOU need help??! 

I never saw it either...


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## Terry Syd (Mar 14, 2012)

Mate, I pick up tricks everywhere I can. I'm working with a C3M carb right now and I have a few ideas, but there's no need to reinvent the wheel if I can prevent it.

Funny thing about this carb, MCM gave me four of them to play around with. It is a Chinese copy of a Zama cab. Now Zama is a Chinese carb to begin with, so I'm working with a Chinese copy of a Chinese carb - I wonder what the Chinese think about patent infringement in a case like this!


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## climberjones (Mar 21, 2012)

lumberjackchef said:


> Yes much appreciated, for all of us who are learning to build faster saws on our own. I know I would probably never be able to afford a nice ported saw if I had to scrape the funds up, and all those pics and info add up to the most major cool factor to all those who so selflessly share it.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk



Were abouts you at in south se ks?


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## lumberjackchef (Mar 23, 2012)

Fort scott


Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk


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## climberjones (Mar 23, 2012)

lumberjackchef said:


> Fort scott
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk



Garnett Whats your racket tree work,logging,wood cutter?


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## stihl038x2 (Mar 29, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Many guys have asked you to show us some of what you do. You post these two pictures of a saw that you've posted pics of before, and then *rather than explain what you are doing, you ask questions about the pics in a way that seems condescending and arrogant.*
> 
> 
> I would love to see you post a build and explain your methods Scott. I don't think that would make people try to steal any of your ideas, it would instead show people that you do good work and are willing to take the time to show what you can do and why you do it.
> ...



Randy, it's called "INSECURITY". I apprenticed under an old Hungarian fellow & he told me where he apprenticed he had to sneak blueprints home at night to study them & learn how to interpret them because the "old lads" that were suposed to be teaching him were paranoid that the "up and comer" would take their jobs away.......... so I recognise the symptoms, as there are still some in todays economy who are insecure and fear "the new guy".

Steve


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## Mastermind (Mar 29, 2012)

stihl038x2 said:


> Randy, it's called "INSECURITY". I apprenticed under an old Hungarian fellow & he told me where he apprenticed he had to sneak blueprints home at night to study them & learn how to interpret them because the "old lads" that were suposed to be teaching him were paranoid that the "up and comer" would take their jobs away.......... so I recognise the symptoms, as there are still some in todays economy who are insecure and fear "the new guy".
> 
> Steve



I've still got a BUNCH of learning to do Steve. I've been sneaking some saws in the shop to study on though.


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## Tree Sling'r (Mar 30, 2012)

Every builder who has ever been paid for services has been put through the ringer, myself included. There are no secrets, the two stroke engine is basic - egos are not. The only thing that gets me, is most builders call the saw that got its butt kicked at the races a "work saw". Run your work saw in harsh conditions for a full season and then run the cookie cutter work saw for a season and see who's has kept its grunt. That to me is a work saw. I have no beef with any other builder or their users, there is just my definition of a work saw and then there is the others definition.

BTW this is a good thread guys.


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## parrisw (Mar 30, 2012)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Every builder who has ever been paid for services has been put through the ringer, myself included. There are no secrets, the two stroke engine is basic - egos are not. The only thing that gets me, is most builders call the saw that got its butt kicked at the races a "work saw". Run your work saw in harsh conditions for a full season and then run the cookie cutter work saw for a season and see who's has kept its grunt. That to me is a work saw. I have no beef with any other builder or their users, there is just my definition of a work saw and then there is the others definition.



I agree with that. Well said.


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## fir (Mar 30, 2012)

I second that


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## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

Video reply.........NOT A WORKSAW :hmm3grin2orange:

Mastermind Meets The Oh 64 !!!!

[video=youtube;eXHTVS_wuSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHTVS_wuSo&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=1&feature=plcp[/video]


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## Bowtie (Mar 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Video reply.........NOT A WORKSAW :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Mastermind Meets The Oh 64 !!!!
> 
> [video=youtube;eXHTVS_wuSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHTVS_wuSo&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=1&feature=plcp[/video]



I promise I will never give you hell about cutting up an 064 again!!! :msp_ohmy:


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## ptjeep (Mar 30, 2012)

Very impressive


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## gink595 (Mar 30, 2012)

Looks good! When you going to put the alky to it?


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## komatsuvarna (Mar 30, 2012)

Dang Randy, that thing is motivating!!! Think im gonna "try" to build a pipe for my 395.... been thinking about it for awhile, just not sure how to go about it yet.


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## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

gink595 said:


> Looks good! When you going to put the alky to it?



Do you guys think an 064/early 066 crank will hold up to this level of performance?


----------



## procarbine2k1 (Mar 30, 2012)

Whats the part number on that pipe, or is it aftermarket?


----------



## gink595 (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Do you guys think an 064/early 066 crank will hold up to this level of performance?



Eric had an early 066 that he raced, Dave Neiger gave it to him. It run real good to if it weren't for the a fire. I ran it at Nates GTG a couple years back. It is the saw that I copied the pipe pattern from.

I think it is on the limiter the whole time:hmm3grin2orange:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zWF0V4f9jjI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here was mine with similiar porting and a copy pipe.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vu-Ng-n71w0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

Very nice. I guess I'm a little chicken to do that to my 064, lol.


----------



## gink595 (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Very nice. I guess I'm a little chicken to do that to my 064, lol.



Ahhh...just a Stihl, dime a dozen to fix!


----------



## mt.stalker (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Very nice. I guess I'm a little chicken to do that to my 064, lol.



Aww come on , it's only money :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

I think I'd rather risk a new saw than a 20 year old saw I restored to like new. I think my 390XP would be sweet with a pipe! I'm on the lookout for a spare jug for it. I already tried to kill it twice, and we both survived, lol. Randy, that 064 is sure sweet!


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

gink595 said:


> Looks good! When you going to put the alky to it?



That's the same thing Terry asked me. 

I think I'll concentrate on learning to operate it well then boost ports, then alky.


----------



## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> That's the same thing Terry asked me.
> 
> I think I'll concentrate on learning to operate it well then boost ports, then alky.



So is the cylinder basically a standard port job plus lots more exhaust duration? No extra transfers? That thing's very impressive. I would have thought that it would take a lot more than that to make a saw run like that. Tempting, very tempting I don't claim to known anything more than woods porting, but I might be tempted to play after seeing that kind of results.


----------



## gink595 (Mar 30, 2012)

procarbine2k1 said:


> Whats the part number on that pipe, or is it aftermarket?



It was part number 3L! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> So is the cylinder basically a standard port job plus lots more exhaust duration? No extra transfers? That thing's very impressive. I would have thought that it would take a lot more than that to make a saw run like that. Tempting, very tempting I don't claim to known anything more than woods porting, but I might be tempted to play after seeing that kind of results.



That saw is the big bore 064 I built awhile back Brad. It has a lightened 395 piston in it and the transfer tunnels have been enlarged a lot. The carb has been bored as well.....also the ignition timing is further advanced than a woods saw. With the exhaust at 85° it's still blowing 170psi so a lot of work went into getting that.


----------



## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

That's definately some high exhaust!


----------



## mt.stalker (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I think I'd rather risk a new saw than a 20 year old saw I restored to like new. I think my 390XP would be sweet with a pipe! I'm on the lookout for a spare jug for it. I already tried to kill it twice, and we both survived, lol. Randy, that 064 is sure sweet!



I can sympathize about desecrating your megahour resto .
And , I think your 390 piped , would destroy any Stihl's that dare tread near it :hmm3grin2orange:


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## gink595 (Mar 30, 2012)

What I'm most impressed with that you got the compression back up to 170psi without putting a head on it!


----------



## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

gink595 said:


> What I'm most impressed with that you got the compression back up to 170psi without putting a head on it!



I'm close to 200 PSI with the exhaust at 97° on my 390XP. Surely another 8°-12° wouldn't kill it The intake is already plenty low enough.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

gink595 said:


> What I'm most impressed with that you got the compression back up to 170psi without putting a head on it!



It had 220 or so before I raised the exhaust...


----------



## FATGUY (Mar 30, 2012)

we could probably squeeze a little more out of it, (I mean compression and not just squeezing the bottom of the piston)


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I'm close to 200 PSI with the exhaust at 97° on my 390XP. Surely another 8°-12° wouldn't kill it The intake is already plenty low enough.



Most importantly is transfer area in a saw that you want to really run. Well that and carb.......and ignition......


----------



## FATGUY (Mar 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> It had 220 or so before I raised the exhaust...



those thick bases make it nice don't they?


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I'm close to 200 PSI with the exhaust at 97° on my 390XP. Surely another 8°-12° wouldn't kill it The intake is already plenty low enough.





FATGUY said:


> we could probably squeeze a little more out of it, (I mean compression and not just squeezing the bottom of the piston)



I sense a plan being formed....... :msp_sneaky:


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> those thick bases make it nice don't they?



Yes but the "black ring of death" is not so nice. It would have had more compression but for that SOB....


----------



## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> It had 220 or so before I raised the exhaust...



Wow. That's a lot of compression loss! We went .035" on my squish band. Anyone ever try doing that *and *a popup? At some point it's got to be easier to just chop the head and put a 2-piece on it.


----------



## gink595 (Mar 30, 2012)

I bet you'd be surprised at what 12-15* will do for your compression. I know I was Yeah I think a head would be the best way to do it, makes it easier to port too.

Here is a head I just made for 66 bb.


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Wow. That's a lot of compression loss! We went .035" on my squish band. Anyone ever try doing that *and *a popup? At some point it's got to be easier to just chop the head and put a 2-piece on it.



That's what I've done on this saw........get outta muh head Bradly.


----------



## blsnelling (Mar 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> That's what I've done on this saw........get outta muh head Bradly.



I honestly didn't know that, lol.


----------



## FATGUY (Mar 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Yes but the "black ring of death" is not so nice. It would have had more compression but for that SOB....



:bang: damn it, if it ain't one thing, it's another. A man could do well for himself if he could find a cost effective way to replate cylinders....


----------



## Mastermind (Mar 30, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> :bang: damn it, if it ain't one thing, it's another. A man could do well for himself if he could find a cost effective way to replate cylinders....



I have this ms390 jug I've been looking at...........if I bored it to 52mm....... :msp_sneaky:


----------



## splitpost (Mar 31, 2012)

you could cut the head off,over bore it,fit a stepped liner blank and then go to town on your ports but jeez thats alot of work ,could be a fun saw though


----------



## splitpost (Apr 1, 2012)

splitpost said:


> you could cut the head off,over bore it,fit a stepped liner blank and then go to town on your ports but jeez thats alot of work ,could be a fun saw though



Thought this would get you thinking MM,not kill the thread


----------



## stihl038x2 (Jun 2, 2012)

Is anyone cutting thier squishband on a taper ? & stepped like the factory jugs ? Do you think it matters ? It's not much more work once you are in there anyhow. I've done a couple that way but am unsure if it is any better, the factory must do it for a reason, Jennings or Bell have probably addressed it but I don't have their books & can't download them, besides I don't like reading books on the "puter"

Steve


----------



## tlandrum (Jun 2, 2012)

if you cut it on a taper it directs the flow into the chamber better than it being flat but i dont think you could notice a difference even with a stop watch.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jun 3, 2012)

stihl038x2 said:


> Is anyone cutting thier squishband on a taper ? & stepped like the factory jugs ? Do you think it matters ? It's not much more work once you are in there anyhow. I've done a couple that way but am unsure if it is any better, the factory must do it for a reason, Jennings or Bell have probably addressed it but I don't have their books & can't download them, besides I don't like reading books on the "puter"
> 
> Steve



I've been putting a slight taper on the ones I've done. Usually around .010 rise from the cylinder wall to the combustion chamber. I've also done em flat. 

I haven't noticed a difference either way, but I'll be honest, I've only done a handful....

IIRC, I think in Jennings book, he states that the dome piston/combustion chamber combo makes more HP, due to the increased square area of the piston crown. I'll have to get a lot better on the lathe before I try that out though.


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm only on my second one but been cutting the chamber on a 2* taper. Been thinking of trying a taper on the crown with a 2* difference between the squish band, like 4* on the squish band and 2* on the piston.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I'm only on my second one but been cutting the chamber on a 2* taper. Been thinking of trying a taper on the crown with a 2* difference between the squish band, like 4* on the squish band and 2* on the piston.



I would "think" anything you can do to help get flow to the combustion chamber would be a good thing. But I've seen some CRAZY wide and flat squish bands, with tiny combustion chambers that were serious runners. 

I also "think" the angle of exit on the upper transfers has a lot more potential to help flow twords the chamber than the squish band angle.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> I would "think" anything you can do to help get flow to the combustion chamber would be a good thing. But I've seen some CRAZY wide and flat squish bands, with tiny combustion chambers that were serious runners.
> 
> I also "think" the angle of exit on the upper transfers has a lot more potential to help flow twords the chamber than the squish band angle.



I'm thinking under compression though. Plus a tapered crown has more surface area, more area for the combustion to push on, more HP.


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## stihl038x2 (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I'm only on my second one but been cutting the chamber on a 2* taper. Been thinking of trying a taper on the crown with a 2* difference between the squish band, like 4* on the squish band and 2* on the piston.



The last one I did was a MS660, flat for ~.075" then 2* taper to combustion chamber. I like the idea of tapering the piston top too, I'll probably try one at some point as well. Maybe even taper (to match squish band), up to a pop-up. 

Steve


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## Jacob J. (Jun 3, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> IIRC, I think in Jennings book, he states that the dome piston/combustion chamber combo makes more HP, due to the increased square area of the piston crown. I'll have to get a lot better on the lathe before I try that out though.



That was one of Jennings' original theories and right around the time he published it, Stihl, Husqvarna, and other *** manufacturers starting putting domed pistons in their equipment that turned out to be great runners (i.e. 056 Super/Magnum.)



wigglesworth said:


> I would "think" anything you can do to help get flow to the combustion chamber would be a good thing. But I've seen some CRAZY wide and flat squish bands, with tiny combustion chambers that were serious runners.



That's the configuration of the Sachs, JLO, and Italian kart engines from the 70's and 80's- engines that won championships for years. 



stihl038x2 said:


> The last one I did was a MS660, flat for ~.075" then 2* taper to combustion chamber. I like the idea of tapering the piston top too, I'll probably try one at some point as well. Maybe even taper (to match squish band), up to a pop-up.
> 
> Steve



Kawasaki had such a set-up on some of their mid-range bikes in the 70's and they were decent runners.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I'm thinking under compression though. Plus a tapered crown has more surface area, more area for the combustion to push on, more HP.



True, the more surface area the better. But from what I've seen, I can't tell much difference between flat or tapered. But ya never know till u try. Give her a whirl. 

To my simple mind, as long as your not getting crazy carbon spots on the crown, and are showing good flow patterns from the transfers to the chamber, then your good to go. I've pretty much given up on using popups, cause every one I've done has had bad carbon problems, and terrible flow patterns.


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

stihl038x2 said:


> The last one I did was a MS660, flat for ~.075" then 2* taper to combustion chamber. I like the idea of tapering the piston top too, I'll probably try one at some point as well. Maybe even taper (to match squish band), up to a pop-up.
> 
> Steve



Some reading I've done, and it makes sense to me is that you want the squish band tapered 2-4* more then the piston.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I'm thinking under compression though. Plus a tapered crown has more surface area, more area for the combustion to push on, more HP.



While the piston may have more area, it won't result in any more force being applied to the connecting rod. Any force by compressed gas on the crown is perpendicular to the surface, and if the surface is not perpendicular to the con rod then the resultant force will be less. Cosine of 2 deg. is .99939 so the difference is small, but there. The biggest problem with domes is the the increased area for heat transfer into the piston crown. It is all a big balancing act.


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## Mastermind (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm just a hack that likes pie.

I do taper the squish band a fuzz though


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## Tzed250 (Jun 3, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm just a hack that likes pie.
> 
> I do taper the squish band a fuzz though



I love me some pie!!

(and a tapered squish band)


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I'm thinking under compression though. Plus a tapered crown has more surface area, more area for the combustion to push on, more HP.


LMAO! You are joking right?


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


> While the piston may have more area, it won't result in any more force being applied to the connecting rod. Any force by compressed gas on the crown is perpendicular to the surface, and if the surface is not perpendicular to the con rod then the resultant force will be less. Cosine of 2 deg. is .99939 so the difference is small, but there. The biggest problem with domes is the the increased area for heat transfer into the piston crown. It is all a big balancing act.



Fair enough, guess my thought process was off.


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> LMAO! You are joking right?



LMAO, bring one of your painted saws down and see how its stacks up against mine. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> LMAO, bring one of your painted saws down and see how its stacks up against mine. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Well if you can bend the laws of physics, I believe you can do just about anything! lol.


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## gink595 (Jun 3, 2012)

I remember reading something about squish velocity and it said that with small bore motors the squish velocity is better with a flat wide squish band. ONce you got into bigger motors it was better with a tapered squish. I suppose fuel make s a difference in there too.


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## morgaj1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm just a hack that likes pie.
> 
> I do taper the squish band a fuzz though



Here we go with the rhubarb stuff again... Hey, I got some blueberries ready to pick. You want me to get the wife to make you a cobbler?


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> Well if you can bend the laws of physics, I believe you can do just about anything! lol.



Ok, I'll refrain from posting my thoughts then. Nobody gets ahead without thinking and experimenting. 

Don't see you posting much useful info around here.


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## Jacob J. (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Ok, I'll refrain from posting my thoughts then. Nobody gets ahead without thinking and experimenting.
> 
> Don't see you posting much useful info around here.



I doubt that Simon moves out of his comfort zone much anymore.


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I doubt that Simon moves out of his comfort zone much anymore.


My comfort zone does not include teaching physics to mechanics. It is like trying to fill a 45 gallon-drum with an eye-dropper.


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## morgaj1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> My comfort zone does not include teaching physics to mechanics. It is like trying to fill a 45 gallon-drum with an eye-dropper.



Wow, what a bunch of self righteous BS. I think these hillbillies (which is what is said before you edited it), build some fine saws. It is through experimentation and vocalizing thought processes that information is shared and gained. But, I guess you have all the knowledge you need, so this discourse is beneath you :msp_tongue:


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## Jacob J. (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> My comfort zone does not include teaching physics to mechanics. It is like trying to fill a 45 gallon-drum with an eye-dropper.



Every time there's a discussion (dating back to when you first joined here) of two-cycle theory, you only offer ridicule and self-aggrandizing malarkey. I have never once seen you say something technically proficient or enlightening.


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

morgaj1 said:


> Wow, what a bunch of self righteous BS. I think these hillbillies (which is what is said before you edited it), build some fine saws. It is through experimentation and vocalizing thought processes that information is shared and gained. But, I guess you have all the knowledge you need, so this discourse is beneath you :msp_tongue:


I changed it because Will is not a hillbilly. I have modded over 2000 saws now and I do agree trial and error is important in perfecting a design. I am very pompous when it comes to physics and misconceptions because most clowns stick by their beliefs. Will backed down and admitted he jumped the gun. That is admirable and he is welcome here in August to eat steak and drink cold beer during our loggersports. I am trying to become a less arrogant person but it is difficult sometimes.


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Every time there's a discussion (dating back to when you first joined here) of two-cycle theory, you only offer ridicule and self-aggrandizing malarkey. I have never once seen you say something technically proficient or enlightening.


What would you like to know for free?


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## tlandrum (Jun 3, 2012)

i want to know just how dam many licks ''does'' it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop.


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## Jacob J. (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> What would you like to know for free?



How to become intelligent, beautiful, motivated, and increase my libido all while making a fortune in real estate.


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> i want to know just how dam many licks ''does'' it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop.


I have never had one.


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> How to become intelligent, beautiful, motivated, and increase my libido all while making a fortune in real estate.


Build a time-machine, don't smoke pot, stay in school, work-out, eat oysters, buy property on Vancouver Island .


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## Logger4Life (Jun 3, 2012)

Anyone have some advice on a 066 BB project that I am doing ? Are the gains found about the same way as the 660 build? What I mean is the exhaust port to high on the BB cylinder also?


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## tlandrum (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> I have never had one.



and here i thought you were high society. guess i was wrong


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## Mastermind (Jun 3, 2012)

morgaj1 said:


> Here we go with the rhubarb stuff again... Hey, I got some blueberries ready to pick. You want me to get the wife to make you a cobbler?



Oh hell yes. 



Simonizer said:


> I changed it because Will is not a hillbilly. I have modded over 2000 saws now and I do agree trial and error is important in perfecting a design. I am very pompous when it comes to physics and misconceptions because most clowns stick by their beliefs. Will backed down and admitted he jumped the gun. That is admirable and he is welcome here in August to eat steak and drink cold beer during our loggersports. *I am trying to become a less arrogant person but it is difficult sometimes*.



Admitting there's a problem is the first step. :msp_thumbup:


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Oh hell yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Admitting there's a problem is the first step. :msp_thumbup:


lol


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## morgaj1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Oh hell yes.



My 4yo picked a mess of blueberries today and the cobbler is in the oven. What time should we expect you?


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> My comfort zone does not include teaching physics to mechanics. It is like trying to fill a 45 gallon-drum with an eye-dropper.



I'm a mechanic and I take great offense to that. Since these days you actually have to be pretty smart if you want to keep up with the automotive business. Good day!!


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

So anyone else have any thought about squish cutting like I was thinking?


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## Tzed250 (Jun 3, 2012)

When I made the post about the piston crown it was not meant to disparage anyone. Anyone who thinks they are going to hold information at bay in the age of the world wide web is delusional. The info can be found. Some will share it freely, and some will impede it. 

BTW, since I live in West Virginia, I'll be the judge of who is a hillbilly and who isn't.


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## Simonizer (Jun 3, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I'm a mechanic and I take great offense to that. Since these days you actually have to be pretty smart if you want to keep up with the automotive business. Good day!!


I am a journeyman mechanic too Will. My dad told me to get a trade if I wanted to be a good engineer. I did both. Burned myself, cut myself, paid my dues. I have been pulling wrenches for 25 years. Please don't take offense.


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## morgaj1 (Jun 3, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> True, the more surface area the better. But from what I've seen, I can't tell much difference between flat or tapered. But ya never know till u try. Give her a whirl.
> 
> To my simple mind, as long as your not getting crazy carbon spots on the crown, and are showing good flow patterns from the transfers to the chamber, then your good to go. I've pretty much given up on using popups, cause every one I've done has had bad carbon problems, and terrible flow patterns.



Where was the carbon buildup? Do you think that the dome shaped impeded the flame front causing incomplete combustion?

I have been working on 4-stroke engines forever, mostly motorcycles. But, recently have really gotten into 2-stroke theory. They seem simple at first, due to the lack of moving parts compared to a 4-stroke. However, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.


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## parrisw (Jun 3, 2012)

Simonizer said:


> I am a journeyman mechanic too Will. My dad told me to get a trade if I wanted to be a good engineer. I did both. Burned myself, cut myself, paid my dues. I have been pulling wrenches for 25 years. Please don't take offense.



Ok, Simon. Duly noted.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 4, 2012)

morgaj1 said:


> Where was the carbon buildup? Do you think that the dome shaped impeded the flame front causing incomplete combustion?
> 
> I have been working on 4-stroke engines forever, mostly motorcycles. But, recently have really gotten into 2-stroke theory. They seem simple at first, due to the lack of moving parts compared to a 4-stroke. However, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.



I'm with ya. The more I think I know, the more I realize I don't know squat. 

I've tried several different shapes and sizes of popups, also done welded(which is the only way I will do one now) and even with the best finish, no sharp angles, and mirror polished, they will still leave carbon on the edges, and show signs of flow disruption from the transfers. It's just the nature of the beast with a popup. 

I'm definitely not saying that popups are bad, as some of the strongest saws out there have em. I just "personally" think that cutting the chamber is the better way, when it's possible. 

Here is the last one I did. It's a welded popup for a 346NE. 







And here it is after a couple tanks of Klotz super techniplate. Nastiest oil I've ever used. This was at 40:1 with non ethanol fuel too. Ignore the massive amounts of carbon, as its not normally that bad, but look at the flow pattern from the transfers.


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## Mastermind (Jun 4, 2012)

morgaj1 said:


> Where was the carbon buildup? Do you think that the dome shaped impeded the flame front causing incomplete combustion?
> 
> I have been working on 4-stroke engines forever, mostly motorcycles. But, recently have really gotten into 2-stroke theory. They seem simple at first, due to the lack of moving parts compared to a 4-stroke. *However, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2012)

i hear rhubarb works to check your squish if you dont have any solder around ...........


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## blsnelling (Jun 4, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> And here it is after a couple tanks of Klotz super techniplate. Nastiest oil I've ever used. This was at 40:1 with non ethanol fuel too. Ignore the massive amounts of carbon, as its not normally that bad, but look at the flow pattern from the transfers.



I don't see the problem. I see nice even swirls coming from each of the four transfer ports.


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## mt.stalker (Jun 4, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> morgaj1 said:
> 
> 
> > Where was the carbon buildup? Do you think that the dome shaped impeded the flame front causing incomplete combustion?
> ...


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## Tzed250 (Jun 4, 2012)

I ran through our neighbors garden when I was 4 years old and squished all kinds of rhubarb...


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## Mastermind (Jun 4, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I don't see the problem. I see nice even swirls coming from each of the four transfer ports.




It looks nice and even to me as well. Jer has that "machinist's eye" though. 



mt.stalker said:


> Mastermind said:
> 
> 
> > So , are you saying that the Bel Ray (hr1)? oil burns cleaner than this ???
> ...


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## wigglesworth (Jun 4, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I don't see the problem. I see nice even swirls coming from each of the four transfer ports.





Mastermind said:


> It looks nice and even to me as well. Jer has that "machinist's eye" though.



Look where the left front transfer flow hits the popup edge, and instead of flowing twords the center, it diverts and flows back twords the intake. It does it on the right side as well, but u can't see it because of the glare in the pic. Normally flow twords the intake is a good thing, but look at the thickness of carbon where the back transfers flow. There was still quite a bit of fuel there during the ignition process, not in the chamber where it should be. 

Then again, I could be crazy....


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2012)

question to the builders ,is there a general rule of thumb for port shapes or timing if want tourque power for cutting bigger timber ,or a higher rpm screamer for making a fast hot rod for smaller stuff ?


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## Mastermind (Jun 4, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> question to the builders ,is there a general rule of thumb for port shapes or timing if want tourque power for cutting bigger timber ,or a higher rpm screamer for making a fast hot rod for smaller stuff ?



I build most of my engines with conservative exhaust numbers and a lot of compression. I like lots of torque in any engine......you can gear for more chain speed if the engine has the power to pull the gear.


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## blsnelling (Jun 4, 2012)

RPMs don't do any good if it can't hold them in the wood. However, with that said, a good "recipe" will give you both.


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## mopar1rules (Jan 14, 2013)

I know this is an older thread but I thought I would share my opinion on why so much carbon buildup on the piston crown........from the castor oil in the Klotz. That stuff burns real dirty but is a great lubricant.


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## wigglesworth (Jan 14, 2013)

mopar1rules said:


> I know this is an older thread but I thought I would share my opinion on why so much carbon buildup on the piston crown........from the castor oil in the Klotz. That stuff burns real dirty but is a great lubricant.



Could be. But I also run Blendzall a lot, which is a straight castor oil, and it doesn't leave those deposits.


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2013)

mopar1rules said:


> I know this is an older thread but I thought I would share my opinion on why so much carbon buildup on the piston crown........from the castor oil in the Klotz. That stuff burns real dirty but is a great lubricant.



It is an old thread........but that Mastermind sure builds a mean 066.


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 14, 2013)

You guys can taper your squish bands, I will taper my turds, hows that? (My best Cahoon) hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2013)

Tree Sling'r said:


> You guys can taper your squish bands, I will taper my turds, hows that? (My best Cahoon) hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!



Turds should be tapered Jasha.........you know that.

Otherwise door slamming damage could and most likely would ensue.


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Turds should be tapered Jasha.........you know that.
> 
> Otherwise door slamming damage could and most likely would ensue.



For sure Randy.


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Jan 14, 2013)

I was at a spring GTG at Heavyfuels's a couple years back and I seem to remember watching a 440 make my 7900 look pretty silly. To say the least I was impressed. Seems to me, and for those of you that were there please correct me if I am wrong but that saw was built by TreeMonkey. Seems like there was a vid of that in that GTG thread.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Turds should be tapered Jasha.........you know that.
> 
> Otherwise door slamming damage could and most likely would ensue.



shouldnt you be fallin trees today :msp_sneaky:


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2013)

VINIFIREWOOD said:


> I was at a spring GTG at Heavyfuels's a couple years back and I seem to remember watching a 440 make my 7900 look pretty silly. To say the least I was impressed. Seems to me, and for those of you that were there please correct me if I am wrong but that saw was built by TreeMonkey. Seems like there was a vid of that in that GTG thread.



Treemonkey builds a hell of a strong saw. The guy takes a back seat to no one. :msp_thumbup:

The first ported 066/660 I ever ran was a saw that Scott built. I was impressed enough to try my hand at ported saws.


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> shouldnt you be fallin trees today :msp_sneaky:



It's been put off till Wed. Rain....rain....and more rain here. :msp_thumbdn:


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## struggle (Jan 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Treemonkey builds a hell of a strong saw. The guy takes a back seat to no one. :msp_thumbup:
> 
> The first ported 066/660 I ever ran was a saw that Scott built. I was impressed enough to try my hand at ported saws.



That is why he has my 660 now

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Jan 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> Treemonkey builds a hell of a strong saw. The guy takes a back seat to no one. :msp_thumbup:
> 
> The first ported 066/660 I ever ran was a saw that Scott built. I was impressed enough to try my hand at ported saws.



I remember thinking or wondering what i needed this big 7900 for when that 440 made the same cut in what seemed like half the time Lol!!!

Not trying to rekindle any mud slinging here just recalling a memory


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 14, 2013)

Mastermind said:


> It's been put off till Wed. Rain....rain....and more rain here. :msp_thumbdn:



that will dampen yer spirits ..................and fyi the 461 has more power than my 660 in a 30 inch fir log ............


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## wendell (Jan 14, 2013)

VINIFIREWOOD said:


> I remember thinking or wondering what i needed this big 7900 for when that 440 made the same cut in what seemed like half the time Lol!!!
> 
> Not trying to rekindle any mud slinging here just recalling a memory



I've got a 7900 that will restore your faith in humanity. And JD has one that will let you experience Nirvana. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 14, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> shouldnt you be fallin trees today :msp_sneaky:



Possibly if I had a working arm, rather I am reading...


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 14, 2013)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Possibly if I had a working arm, rather I am reading...



are you getting any strength back yet to grip ? or pretty tight still ?


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Jan 14, 2013)

wendell said:


> I've got a 7900 that will restore your faith in humanity. And JD has one that will let you experience Nirvana. :hmm3grin2orange:



Wedell
I haven't been on AS for quite some time. Any talk of a GTG this spring?


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## Mastermind (Jan 14, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> that will dampen yer spirits ..................and fyi the 461 has more power than my 660 in a 30 inch fir log ............



I'm not at all surprised.



wendell said:


> I've got a 7900 that will restore your faith in humanity. And JD has one that will let you experience Nirvana. :hmm3grin2orange:



It was JD's saws that I ran that made me a believer in Scott's porting skills.


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## mrnecsteve (Jan 14, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> People have been modifying chainsaws since chainsaws were introduced. The real big push though I would say started in the mid-50's which coincided with the karting
> craze. A lot of what we know now about high-end two cycle performance was developed primarily due to karting. A lot of the karters here on the west coast also
> happened to work in the woods so they took their modification ideas from kart engines and applied them to their saw engines. I know guys here locally that were
> making their own pistons and intakes back then, my grandpa happened to be one of them.



Carl Kiekhafer was probably the first "modder"of 2 cycles from Wikepedia:

World War II changed the corporate climate, and Kiekhaefer sought a government contract to design two-man air-cooled chainsaws. Army engineers were unable to design a lightweight motor. Kiekhaefer designed a new lightweight chainsaw in 2 months. The Kiekhaefer powered chainsaw was able to cut through a 24-inch (610 mm) green log in 17 seconds, while it took the nearest competitor 52 seconds. Mercury was awarded the contract, and was the world's largest chainsaw manufacturer by the end of the war.


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## struggle (Jan 14, 2013)

wendell said:


> I've got a 7900 that will restore your faith in humanity. And JD has one that will let you experience Nirvana. :hmm3grin2orange:



I haven't seen you in post for some time, hows the sweat pants a hanging:msp_sneaky:


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 14, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> are you getting any strength back yet to grip ? or pretty tight still ?



Some, but not enough to do much physical craziness.


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## wendell (Jan 14, 2013)

VINIFIREWOOD said:


> Wedell
> I haven't been on AS for quite some time. Any talk of a GTG this spring?



Look for the Iowa GTG II thread.



struggle said:


> I haven't seen you in post for some time, hows the sweat pants a hanging:msp_sneaky:



They've been retired.


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Jan 14, 2013)

wendell said:


> Look for the Iowa GTG II thread.
> 
> I was looking at that but its about 7 hrs away so I think I'll pass on that one but who knows, see what spring brings my way.


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## struggle (Jan 14, 2013)

VINIFIREWOOD said:


> wendell said:
> 
> 
> > Look for the Iowa GTG II thread.
> ...


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## wendell (Jan 14, 2013)

VINIFIREWOOD said:


> I was looking at that but its about 7 hrs away so I think I'll pass on that one but who knows, see what spring brings my way.





struggle said:


> Some peoplel drive further than that to get to it:msp_ohmy:



Yeah, and some people do too.

Time to step up your game Vini!


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## VINIFIREWOOD (Jan 14, 2013)

wendell said:


> Yeah, and some people do too.
> 
> Time to step up your game Vini!



Lol I might have to
Like I said, we will see what spring throws my way. Hopefully I'll be too busy to do anything but work cuz me likey money and runnin saws for a livin aint bad either.:msp_thumbup:


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