# Is sod worth it?



## 03treegrunt11 (Jun 30, 2007)

About 12 years ago I had a freind of mine killed while doing utility line-clearance in PA. He was removing a dead White Ash that had to be climbed, he'd been using the same crotch for lowering all day. The crotch broke out and the lead hit him. Another climber did an ariel rescue, but there was nothing anyone could do and he died before he was lowered to the ground. I wasn't on the job, but from the guys that were there, they said almost the whole tree could've been cut and dropped, but the home-owner didn't want any divits in their sod! Sod can be replaced...divits can be filled....

An old-timer told me this: "Get the tree on the ground the safest and most efficient way you can."


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## BostonBull (Jun 30, 2007)

We've come across this countless times.

Dead trees arent worth the risk! Sod can be replaced. If there is room the job should have been sold as a notch and drop, bucket, or crane job not a climb job on a dead Ash tree.

Sorry to hear about your friend!


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## Engineeringnerd (Jun 30, 2007)

Very sorry to hear about your friend, what a tragedy.

Just remember that the homeowner is hiring a pro because the homeowner either doesn't know how to cut or doesn't want to. It's up to the pro to determine what is a reasonable price for a demanding request and whether the work can be done safely. If it can't be done safetly or within the customer's cost constraints, leave it for someone else.

Many times if the answer to the customer is " I can drop it and remove it for $1,200, or bring a crane in and remove it to protect your sod for $3,500...." the customer may place a better value on his sod.


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## joesawer (Jul 2, 2007)

No, sod is not worth it. 
I have been cutting dead trees for the past few years, to the point where a live tree is a rare pleasure. They are risky enough without adding silly and undue restrictions.


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## Mitchell (Jul 2, 2007)

*customers demands*

I recently had a similar thankfully event-less experience with a demanding customer. Basically as he was fighting with his neighbour so he ruled the easiest method of removing a 130 foot recently dead grand fir; falling it with the lean into neighbours wooded property. 
In that case I responded, I would fall it on his property, but I had to thread the tree through other trees and plants on his property. 
No no he retorts, your the pro with all this experience I'm paying good money I want it blocked down etc etc. 
My personality is one such that I try to be accommodating so I talked myself into climbing this tree and blocking it down. Essentially at about 80 feet up the fruiting bodies were getting very plentiful and my spurs starting sinking in all the way and sticking. I stopped to reassess and caught myself trying to justify what I was doing. Late in the game wisdom was bestowed upon me, thankfully not to late, and I literally said out load "wtf am I doing", no amount of accommodation, ego or money was worth that. Down I came.
PS I fell it with out event


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## Sprig (Jul 2, 2007)

joesawer said:


> No, sod is not worth it.
> I have been cutting dead trees for the past few years, to the point where a live tree is a rare pleasure. They are risky enough without adding silly and undue restrictions.


Man I gotta agree with all of you on this, grass grows back, you can't replace a good man, I am saddened to hear about someone dying fer a frikken lawn :bang:


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## joesawer (Jul 3, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> I recently had a similar thankfully event-less experience with a demanding customer. Basically as he was fighting with his neighbour so he ruled the easiest method of removing a 130 foot recently dead grand fir; falling it with the lean into neighbours wooded property.
> In that case I responded, I would fall it on his property, but I had to thread the tree through other trees and plants on his property.
> No no he retorts, your the pro with all this experience I'm paying good money I want it blocked down etc etc.
> My personality is one such that I try to be accommodating so I talked myself into climbing this tree and blocking it down. Essentially at about 80 feet up the fruiting bodies were getting very plentiful and my spurs starting sinking in all the way and sticking. I stopped to reassess and caught myself trying to justify what I was doing. Late in the game wisdom was bestowed upon me, thankfully not to late, and I literally said out load "wtf am I doing", no amount of accommodation, ego or money was worth that. Down I came.
> PS I fell it with out event



+1, Good job.
One thing very important thing with dead trees, Never be afraid to retreat. Heck with any tree.
Always evaluate and asses risk, when you are getting in over your head, back up and come up with another plan. 
This stuff is not a joke. To many people are crippled and killed over stupid things.
I frequently clean up after others. It is sometimes easy to be disrespectful of the ones that I clean up after. BUT, I would much rather clean up their trees than their bodies. And I should remember that I always give myself permission not to cut a tree, and a few years ago I would have walked away from the same tree they did.
Live to do it again another day.
Sorry for this is a rant, but this really strikes a nerve with me.


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## treeman82 (Jul 4, 2007)

The first job I ever did for this one company was a DEAD hickory... no problems, just a BIG tree... got it down safely. After the dead hickory though was an "ash" tree which turned out to be a tulip at the back corner of the property. I looked at the tree, it had some cut roots on the back side, but I said let's just move all the stuff on the ground and I'll let everything fly. Well I get up about 40' and it's now starting to look as though this thing has been struck by lightning. I thought things over in my head, and decided to come down. It wasn't worth it.


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 4, 2007)

ive come down from a dead removal when my spikes went all the way into the wood and stuck also,,,really made my mind up when i started seeing horizontal cracks in the spar,,,the boss was mad but i told him to go @#$! himself,,,not worth it to put yourself in danger of hurting or killing yourself and or others


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## joesawer (Jul 4, 2007)

jrparbor04 said:


> ive come down from a dead removal when my spikes went all the way into the wood and stuck also,,,really made my mind up when i started seeing horizontal cracks in the spar,,,the boss was mad but i told him to go @#$! himself,,,not worth it to put yourself in danger of hurting or killing yourself and or others



+1
Vertical cracks are no big deal as long as you don't try to use them for a hinge or stick a spike in them. Horizontal cracks are FRACTURES!


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## EngineerDude (Jul 5, 2007)

engineeringnerd said:


> If it can't be done safetly or within the customer's cost constraints, leave it for someone else.



At the heart of this sad tale is the issue of "customer constraints". It's unfortunate that this cost this guy his life, and we're left to wonder if maybe one or more others took a pass on it, and he was the guy that agreed to do it the way the HO wanted it done.

As to convincing the HO as to a better (safer) approach, you can lead a horse to water ...


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## jrparbor04 (Jul 5, 2007)

joesawer,,,are you maybe thinking of vertical cracks,,,i dont mind those as much as horizontal cracks


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## joesawer (Jul 5, 2007)

jrparbor04 said:


> joesawer,,,are you maybe thinking of vertical cracks,,,i dont mind those as much as horizontal cracks



Yeah, I think that is what I said.


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## treeman82 (Jul 5, 2007)

What I don't understand is why the guy roped everything out if he was working for the utility co, not the HO? If he was working on a residential crew... then alright, gotta please the customer. This was a utility crew though, yes?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 6, 2007)

EngineerDude said:


> At the heart of this sad tale is the issue of "customer constraints". It's unfortunate that this cost this guy his life, and we're left to wonder if maybe one or more others took a pass on it, and he was the guy that agreed to do it the way the HO wanted it done.
> 
> As to convincing the HO as to a better (safer) approach, you can lead a horse to water ...


This fatality is very sad and my condolences to the family and friends of the arborist, but this whole line of logic is flawed.

Let's say there was a house near the tree, and the homeowner said don't hit my home. Would we then blame the homeowner if this fatality happened? No. Are we saying it's OK to die trying to save gutters and siding, but not sod?

The arborist is to blame here. It was his judgment that put him in the tree doing what he was doing. If we had all the information about the accident, we could surely find things that could have been done to prevent this, but that's hindsight. 

Climbing and removing dead and hazardous trees takes an innate skill in engineering and a keen knowledge of trees. One needs to always err on the side of caution and prepare for every possibility.

Too many times I see climbers doing things that are dangerous because they just don't know any other way.


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## Mitchell (Jul 9, 2007)

*In agreement*



Mike Maas said:


> This fatality is very sad and my condolences to the family and friends of the arborist, but this whole line of logic is flawed.
> 
> 
> Climbing and removing dead and hazardous trees takes an innate skill in engineering and a keen knowledge of trees. One needs to always err on the side of caution and prepare for every possibility.
> ...



I agree with your thoughts Mike, however is it realistic to prepare for every possibility? I personally try to approach the inherent dangers in this line of work with smart risk or calculated risk.


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## joesawer (Jul 10, 2007)

Mike Maas said:


> Too many times I see climbers doing things that are dangerous because they just don't know any other way.



+1 Happens way to often


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## EngineerDude (Jul 11, 2007)

Mike Maas said:


> ... this whole line of logic is flawed.
> 
> The arborist is to blame here.



Mike, I think we're saying basically the same thing. I completely agree that from the little we know, by all appearances the arborists's judgement was flawed in allowing himself to be lured into using an unsafe approach.

The point I was trying to make is that the HO's constraint was likely the factor that opened the door for this accident to occur. From the description, almost surely the arbo would've chosen a safer approach if possible. I wondered if other safer, more disciplined guys had taken a pass on it.

Without saying it explicilty, I was trying to suggest that when you can't get the horse to drink, it's time to find another horse.


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## ASD (Jul 12, 2007)

this is some of the wording on our EMERGENCY SERVICE CONTRACT it gives us alot of discretion as to how we do a tuff job

EMERGENCY SERVICE CONTRACT
TERMS AND CONDITIONS



•	S&C will execute normal and responsible care during all phases of this project.

•	S&C reserves the right to stop work at any time during this project, if at its discretion, it becomes unsafe to continue without repercussions and will resume work when S&C deems it is safe to continue.

•	S&C reserves the right to stop work once the hazard, in its opinion, has been eliminated (but makes no warranties as to the safety and/or stability of the area) and will continue clean up proceedings at a later date as time and weather allow. 

•	S&C shall not be held liable for any subsequent or consequential damages to the premises or property and/or adjacent premises or properties.


•	The Owner (or Agent) is responsible for maintaining security of the premises during the project and limiting access to authorized individuals.


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