# Climber was stealing from me.



## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 7, 2011)

Found out today that the guy I had climbing for me was going back around after we did these storm cleanup jobs and was collecting money from the customers. He wont return my calls now, so I guess I am gonna have to go to the District justice and see what he will do. What a bunch of crap. So far he has stole $1300 that I have found out about. I have been trying to get ahold of all the customers i billed and let them know whats going on.


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## lone wolf (Nov 7, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Found out today that the guy I had climbing for me was going back around after we did these storm cleanup jobs and was collecting money from the customers. He wont return my calls now, so I guess I am gonna have to go to the District justice and see what he will do. What a bunch of crap. So far he has stole $1300 that I have found out about. I have been trying to get ahold of all the customers i billed and let them know whats going on.



Sounds like he will be going to jail with any proof from you and one witness.


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## indiansprings (Nov 7, 2011)

That is sure tough, it looks like the boy is now soon to be a felon instead of a climber. I'd prosecute the guy, hopefully you can get a judgement and take what he stole out of his tax return.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 7, 2011)

indiansprings said:


> That is sure tough, it looks like the boy is now soon to be a felon instead of a climber. I'd prosecute the guy, hopefully you can get a judgement and take what he stole out of his tax return.


:msp_angry:

if tax return is your code word for ass than I agree thats where you should get it back from....


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 7, 2011)

He should have his legs broke. I was paying him $20 a hour. Guess he wanted to be gready. Kinda screws me now, i got some climbing work I need done this week. Guess the only way you get better climbing is doing it more yourself.


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## superjunior (Nov 7, 2011)

wow, that sucks. 
same thing happened to a landscaper friend of mine, turns out his guy was a crack-head


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## treemandan (Nov 7, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Found out today that the guy I had climbing for me was going back around after we did these storm cleanup jobs and was collecting money from the customers. He wont return my calls now, so I guess I am gonna have to go to the District justice and see what he will do. What a bunch of crap. So far he has stole $1300 that I have found out about. I have been trying to get ahold of all the customers i billed and let them know whats going on.



What's his name? I'll put an ad on CL, when he responds I'll go up Lancaster way, meet you, then we can meet him.


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## arborpros (Nov 7, 2011)

That sucks man. My advice is that if you are going to put him in concrete shoes, don't post it on a public forum. I mean that in a respectable way, not trying to bust balls. Talk to the cops, get your money back and move to a new climber. I feel for you. It would be hard for me to turn and let the law enforcement take care of it. People like that need to get their jaw broken so they think about their mistake for the 6 weeks they have their jaw wired shut. I can't stand thieves but I am a firm believer in kharma so he'll get his.


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## arborpros (Nov 7, 2011)

Not an easy thing to do but it is the right thing to do. Good luck.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 7, 2011)

thanks.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 7, 2011)

I'd go to the guys house to see what the guy does when I come and check on him non challantly. 

"So, see the Cards play? How's money? What's your future plans? Oh man, somebody took my money!" 

Don't even pin the crime on him while you are there. Just watch the liar act, and go home. Then the police will come by next. :msp_sneaky:

Better than a TV show.


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## fdoberman (Nov 8, 2011)

When you're feeling completely frustrated because the cops blew you off REMEMBER, 1099 the sumbych!

He'll be turning up to talk in 18 months to 3 years when IRS slams his ass for failing to report income!

Lord I do love the 1099 form.


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## lone wolf (Nov 8, 2011)

fdoberman said:


> When you're feeling completely frustrated because the cops blew you off REMEMBER, 1099 the sumbych!
> 
> He'll be turning up to talk in 18 months to 3 years when IRS slams his ass for failing to report income!
> 
> Lord I do love the 1099 form.



Could make them look at the employer too :msp_scared:


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## RVALUE (Nov 8, 2011)

lone wolf said:


> Could make them look at the employer too :msp_scared:



That's what I was always worried about. For no real gain.



As for the topic, where did he steal from the boss? I saw that he 'stole' from the customers. Just thinking.


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 8, 2011)

Yep, get the copper involved. Then I would call the other tree services and warn them, may be away to make some friends or mend fences, but ultimately, it will make it hard on the joker to get any work.


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## lone wolf (Nov 8, 2011)

The cops already know him I will bet he prob bounced checks on them to pay fines .Meth or crack involved no doubt cause that takes balls and how did the junkie think he would get away with it, he did not care cause he needed junk.


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## lone wolf (Nov 8, 2011)

RVALUE said:


> That's what I was always worried about. For no real gain.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the topic, where did he steal from the boss? I saw that he 'stole' from the customers. Just thinking.



Good thinking I think you are right.


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## ducaticorse (Nov 8, 2011)

RVALUE said:


> That's what I was always worried about. For no real gain.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the topic, where did he steal from the boss? I saw that he 'stole' from the customers. Just thinking.



Yeah, that'll go over well. "Excuse me Mr. Customer, you shouldn't have paid my employee, a representitive of my company who actually cut your trees down, he took your money and quit, and it never made it into my hands, so you still owe me the money."


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## lxt (Nov 8, 2011)

Not to be cruel...........but, was this a legit employee? Reason I ask is cause a buddy of mine went through a hiring binge of idiots, put em all on the books nice & legal like, well after a quit here, no show there, late show, drunk show, etc...

He hired a guy under the table.............told him, you make it for 1 month & Ill put ya on the books, guy was as good a worker as could be gotten & then tools are missing, home owner writes check out to him after hours....same type situation!

Heres the long & short of it: My buddy couldnt do a thing.......1- he`s under the table (big no,no) & 2- guy stated this was his charges for doing the work he did............turned out to be a No Case issue! he dont hire anyone off the books anymore, such a shame cause I think an employer should be able to temp hire before spending a ton of cash on someone who is gonna quit in 3-4days! Hope it all works out for ya!!!



LXT...............


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## oscar4883 (Nov 8, 2011)

I think this is BS. I am not saying I doubt your story, but you are weighing some heavy things on a guy who is not here to defend himself. A crackhead, thieving, tree guy is nothing new but handle it with or without the authorities and keep the guys name off the internet.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 8, 2011)

I was paying him with a check at the end of the week and was gonna give him a 1099 at the end of the year. He dont work full time for me, but normally a couple days a week.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 8, 2011)

oscar4883 said:


> I think this is BS. I am not saying I doubt your story, but you are weighing some heavy things on a guy who is not here to defend himself. A crackhead, thieving, tree guy is nothing new but handle it with or without the authorities and keep the guys name off the internet.



I only put his name on because someone asked. He made his bed, now he can lie in it. Sounds like you might just know him. Besides if he didnt do anything wrong why would he not answer my calls? I never called him anything but a thief.


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## wampum (Nov 8, 2011)

oscar4883 said:


> I think this is BS. I am not saying I doubt your story, but you are weighing some heavy things on a guy who is not here to defend himself. A crackhead, thieving, tree guy is nothing new but handle it with or without the authorities and keep the guys name off the internet.



Oscar I agree,this guy is innocent until proven guilty.OP do not post a persons name and address again accusing him of wrong doing when he has not had his day in court.I deleted both posts that mentioned his name and address.Thanks,Dave


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 8, 2011)

oscar4883 you should run for a political office. Your really good at pretecting the guilty. If your a idiot and do stupid stuff like steal from people then you should have your name printed in the paper for everyone to see it. There would be alot less crime in this world if people would stand up for whats right and stop protecting the criminals. Have a back bone.


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## oscar4883 (Nov 8, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I only put his name on because someone asked. He made his bed, now he can lie in it. Sounds like you might just know him. Besides if he didnt do anything wrong why would he not answer my calls? I never called him anything but a thief.



What would give you the impression I know him? I do however, know the type. Unfortunately that type of person seems to be a little more prevalent in tree work than other fields. PA is a fairly large state and believe it or not some of us have never even been to the Lancaster area. But, thanks anyway for the thinly veiled inference that I hang out with dirt bags.


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## oscar4883 (Nov 8, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> oscar4883 you should run for a political office. Your really good at pretecting the guilty. If your a idiot and do stupid stuff like steal from people then you should have your name printed in the paper for everyone to see it. There would be alot less crime in this world if people would stand up for whats right and stop protecting the criminals. Have a back bone.



Hey bud, I have nothing against you at all. All I was saying is that IMO things like this should be handled off of public forums. If handled in your local arena at least a guy can speak up for himself if he has a leg to stand on. If you feel the need to insult my lack of "back bone" feel free.


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## lxt (Nov 8, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I was paying him with a check at the end of the week and was gonna give him a 1099 at the end of the year. He dont work full time for me, but normally a couple days a week.



Yep you`re boned!!! 1099 makes him a Sub & I hope you made sure he has insurance...........cause if he fights the 1099??? by saying he was an employee, the burden is on you to prove otherwise, chances are he will be viewed as an employee & you will owe a nice sum of money to certain Govt entities??

I agree about keeping the name off the forum, you dont use your real name in its entirety..........really we dont know how you even treated this guy? or what type of guy you are?. Ive worked for employers who at the end of the week were no where to be found, wouldnt answer their phone & then monday morning would give you 1/2 your pay for last week.........well Ive walked home with some gear as insurance...! Ill get the rest of my money & made sure the gear was worth more than what I was owed, hate situations like that & get out of em as soon as possible.

Not saying that you are this type...........but the sword can cut both ways!



LXT............


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## fdoberman (Nov 8, 2011)

I've 1099ed deadbeats & thieves for 30 years and have yet to have one bounce back on me.

According to Uniform Commercial Code, the customer still owes the money to the contractor. 
1, The customer certainly should have known better than to pay in cash to an employee. This indicates larcenous intent on the customer's part. If said customer did pay cash where is the receipt on company stationary?

2, the situation is no different from a homeowner learning he still owes the concrete supplier because the mason who poured the slab didn't pay the concrete plant!

I learned 30 years back that there is a lot to be said for 3rd party labor contractors.


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## lxt (Nov 8, 2011)

fdoberman said:


> I've 1099ed deadbeats & thieves for 30 years and have yet to have one bounce back on me.
> 
> According to Uniform Commercial Code, the customer still owes the money to the contractor.
> 1, The customer certainly should have known better than to pay in cash to an employee. This indicates larcenous intent on the customer's part. If said customer did pay cash where is the receipt on company stationary?
> ...





You just havent had the right deadbeat question you on the 1099, read PA labor law & see how an employee is classified as opposed to a "Sub"

why would the customer know better? the "Sub" was acting as 1 of how many contractors? My crew foreman submits invoices for me as an agent of my company............in this instance the "Sub" asked & therefore received........thats on the General Contractor as he should have payment terms within his contract depicting that he gets the check/draw!! If this ordeal is cash/under the table, non legit biz type of work..............then the thread starter is screwed!

the concrete supplier wouldnt even drop the load before he had payment & signed statement of waiver & release!



LXT................


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## lone wolf (Nov 8, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Yeah, good luck with that. Sounds like more of a case for a civil court if you ever plan on being compensated.



Its theft by deception.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 8, 2011)

lone wolf said:


> Its theft by deception.



I think this whole thread walks a pretty thin line anyway , I sure as hell wouldn't be involving a customer in employee employer relations , he got paid and thats that , best thing to do is move on do some damage control and keep your mouth shut , Is 2000, worth a HO running ya down all over the place as a shady person worth it ... Take that money and kiss it up to God and learn a expensive lesson , and as for him, #### him he will prolly OD soon enough and die anyway and won't be missed by many I am sure ... And don't ever put yourself in a position that if 1 person don't show your beat I could do any job that I would pay another person for ...


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## arborpros (Nov 8, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> And don't ever put yourself in a position that if 1 person don't show your beat I could do any job that I would pay another person for ...



Minus the grammer, this is probably the most intelligent sentence on this whole thread.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 8, 2011)

arborpros said:


> Minus the grammer, this is probably the most intelligent sentence on this whole thread.



I was off on a bit of a tizzy and grammar seems to lack with me at times ...


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## lone wolf (Nov 8, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> I was off on a bit of a tizzy and grammar seems to lack with me at times ...



Most good tree cutters lack a little grammar cause they spent more time in the woods than in school!


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## fdoberman (Nov 8, 2011)

In 1982 I hired a retiring IRS enforcer who had just cost me a few thousand when I had to forfeit to IRS payment I had gotten a month before from a contractor who paid me. IRS is damn powerful, and also very weak if you know how they operate. I learned a lot from that man, and kept him close until he died for when I'd need advice..

As to the concept of kissing deadbeats up to God, I guarantee you owe me money I will collect it or you can kiss your ass goodbye. File Bankruptcy you'll be hiring a real Bankruptcy attorney and answering my questions at the 341 hearing. I've done it before and if necessary I'll do it again.
The only business that ever cost me was deadbeats who weren't going to pay anyhow.

I'll be damned if I provide a service bill and get stiffed, and then pay income tax on the accrued income. People go broke fast waiting for payment, and I've bought a lot of equipment from people going belly up because they didn't collect promptly. A dollar that takes 90 days to come in is only worth 67¢ when it arrives.

You either collect what is due when it is due or you go belly up!


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 9, 2011)

I agree about collecting money promptly. I can climb, but in certain situations, I am not as fast as others. He got ahold of me and said his wife took his cousin that looks like him and collected the money. He said she also stold 26k out of there kids college fund. Idk, I want to believe what he says, but I dont. He said he wants to make it right and he is at my mercy. I might let him work it off, but keep him far away from the customers. Guess we will see.


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 9, 2011)

lone wolf said:


> Most good tree cutters lack a little grammar cause they spent more time in the woods than in school!



I did gets more lessons learned in dim woods anyway....


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 9, 2011)

How did this guy, or anybody, cash a check made out to your company?


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## RVALUE (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I agree about collecting money promptly. I can climb, but in certain situations, I am not as fast as others. He got ahold of me and said his wife took his cousin that looks like him and collected the money. He said she also stold 26k out of there kids college fund. Idk, I want to believe what he says, but I dont. He said he wants to make it right and he is at my mercy. I might let him work it off, but keep him far away from the customers. Guess we will see.



Tempting as it is, I personally have never had this type situation work out. Especially when drugs or personal problems are involved. It just prolongs or defers the disappointment to a future time. My observation is to take your lick now and go on.


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I agree about collecting money promptly. I can climb, but in certain situations, I am not as fast as others. He got ahold of me and said his wife took his cousin that looks like him and collected the money. He said she also stold 26k out of there kids college fund. Idk, I want to believe what he says, but I dont. He said he wants to make it right and he is at my mercy. I might let him work it off, but keep him far away from the customers. Guess we will see.



That is probably all B.S., he is telling you what he can, to cover his butt. I wouldn't have him around at all. College fund, yeah right!


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## lone wolf (Nov 9, 2011)

Bigus Termitius said:


> How did this guy, or anybody, cash a check made out to your company?



Prob asked for cash, and that cousin story is a real big lie there!!!!!I guess the cousin knew where to collect all the money too huh?


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 9, 2011)

lone wolf said:


> Prob asked for cash, and that cousin story is a real big lie there!!!!!I guess the cousin knew where to collect all the money too huh?



Exactly....


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## lxt (Nov 9, 2011)

I think this whole story is bunk!!! C`mon......gonna 1099 him, then his cousin & your climbers wife show up at your customers for pay?? I dont know whats worse him telling you that story or you telling it to us??

REALLY???.......how would the wife know where the customer lived? there are too many un-answered questions here about the legitamacy of this operation & honestly Im thinking someone owed someone who just took what he was owed, if the job was complete & money owed.........then why didnt the biz owner collect it?

Ohh & BTW........ unless you are a *Creditor,* showing up at the 341 hearing & trying to collect will not work!!! totally different circumstances, I tried it with a person that owed me $5000.00 & it was laughable...........not a creditor & the fair credit reporting act & all laws pertaining to such dont apply.........you provided a service & therefore a complaint must be filed "theft of service" the long & short of it.................write it off




LXT...................


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 9, 2011)

lxt said:


> I think this whole story is bunk!!! C`mon......gonna 1099 him, then his cousin & your climbers wife show up at your customers for pay?? I dont know whats worse him telling you that story or you telling it to us??
> 
> REALLY???.......how would the wife know where the customer lived? there are too many un-answered questions here about the legitamacy of this operation & honestly Im thinking someone owed someone who just took what he was owed, if the job was complete & money owed.........then why didnt the biz owner collect it?
> 
> ...



Word


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 9, 2011)

The customer wasnt home when we were done. I dont know why she paid him cash, knowing that I told her when I meet with her and her husband that i would send them a bill if they werent home when we were done. lxt, i didnt owe him anything. He was paid when I told him I would pay him, just like all the times before. He knew it wasnt his money. What questions about my "legitamacy of this operation & honestly" do you have? I have no reason to be dishonest.


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## lone wolf (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> The customer wasnt home when we were done. I dont know why she paid him cash, knowing that I told her when I meet with her and her husband that i would send them a bill if they werent home when we were done. lxt, i didnt owe him anything. He was paid when I told him I would pay him, just like all the times before. He knew it wasnt his money. What questions about my "legitamacy of this operation & honestly" do you have? I have no reason to be dishonest.



Did you talk to the detectives yet?


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## ducaticorse (Nov 9, 2011)

Lol


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## Bigus Termitius (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> The customer wasnt home when we were done. I dont know why she paid him cash, knowing that I told her when I meet with her and her husband that i would send them a bill if they werent home when we were done. lxt, i didnt owe him anything. He was paid when I told him I would pay him, just like all the times before. He knew it wasnt his money. What questions about my "legitamacy of this operation & honestly" do you have? I have no reason to be dishonest.



I wouldn't give a rip if it was his cousin, or his wife, doesn't matter. Birds of a feather. I'd tell him he better go get his severance from her then.


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## lxt (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> The customer wasnt home when we were done. I dont know why she paid him cash, knowing that I told her when I meet with her and her husband that i would send them a bill if they werent home when we were done. lxt, i didnt owe him anything. He was paid when I told him I would pay him, just like all the times before. He knew it wasnt his money. What questions about my "legitamacy of this operation & honestly" do you have? I have no reason to be dishonest.



Not saying you`re dishonest........certain things just dont jive in all this!! first its a 1099, we never got an answer if he was an insured "Sub", then the home owner pays cash? they pay a woman & a man who they have never seen before for "Tree Work"?

Now you find out that it was the climbers wife & his cousin?...........C`mon, sounds like a bonnie & clyde movie!! what did your contract say????? did you have a contract? if so.....then tell the customer they owe you! regardless if they paid someone cash what a nice gift, however if you have a contract then legitimate payment is still due by way of check to business!!!!!

& to answer your question with a question......what about your operation & the story depicted above do you think makes sense....from a legal standpoint?





LXT..............


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 9, 2011)

I have a full time guy and workers comp insurance. The climber supplies his own gear and normally meets me at the jobs. Maybe I am wrong but I thought that would fall under a sub contractor. I don't know if he has insurance or not, I thought that's why my policy has a thing saying about sub contractors being covered. Maybe I read that wrong. Idk. As far as a contract, I didn't have one with them. I gave them a verbal quote and they gave me a verbal go ahead with that and handshake. Do you have the customer sign a contract or quote for each job?


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## lxt (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I have a full time guy and workers comp insurance. The climber supplies his own gear and normally meets me at the jobs. Maybe I am wrong but I thought that would fall under a sub contractor. I don't know if he has insurance or not, I thought that's why my policy has a thing saying about sub contractors being covered. Maybe I read that wrong. Idk. As far as a contract, I didn't have one with them. I gave them a verbal quote and they gave me a verbal go ahead with that and handshake. Do you have the customer sign a contract or quote for each job?




Is the climber in question covered under your WC policy? Do you tell him when to arrive & leave? is he considered his own boss or does he take direction from you? Cause the PA Dept of Labor clearly defines what is & what is not an employee, you should have all that info along with the new version of the minimum wage standards posted at your office work place......By Law!

Why dont you know if he has insurance? so he gets hurt who is to blame? what if he destroys customer property....?he works/contract climbs for you.. so you will be responsible by default & subject to severe fines for operating in such a manner! 

your insurance policy gives you the right to "subcontract" work & in the event damages arise over & above what your Sub`s liability policy will cover then your policy will/may pick up the rest..........you might wanna check with your Ins. Carrier, Im sure they require a subcontractor insurance cert to be on file with them!!!!

No Contract...........it becomes he said she said & sadly enough you are screwed, Before I engage in any work I have the customer sign a work authorization entailing the scope of work to be performed along with legal print, disclaimers, etc.....so as to protect the customer & me................mostly me!

Goodluck & I hope you get things resolved!


LXT................


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## ducaticorse (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I have a full time guy and workers comp insurance. The climber supplies his own gear and normally meets me at the jobs. Maybe I am wrong but I thought that would fall under a sub contractor. I don't know if he has insurance or not, I thought that's why my policy has a thing saying about sub contractors being covered. Maybe I read that wrong. Idk. As far as a contract, I didn't have one with them. I gave them a verbal quote and they gave me a verbal go ahead with that and handshake. Do you have the customer sign a contract or quote for each job?



What LXT said, AND.

If he's not covering comp on his own, YOU HAVE TO. I don't know what it is for you, but for me its close to 15% of payroll. So if he makes say $100K from you over the course of the year, and you have him 1099 and he doesn't have comp, it means you just earned yourself a $15K bill from your comp ins co. AINT LIFE GRAND!?


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## Grouchy old man (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> The customer wasnt home when we were done. I dont know why she paid him cash, knowing that I told her when I meet with her and her husband that i would send them a bill if they werent home when we were done.



I assume it had to be the customer who told you they paid cash to your guy? How do you know they aren't lying? At any rate, I would have billed them and when they said they had already paid I would have said that we have no record of it, where is the receipt? The customer is just as responsible IMO. They should NEVER have paid cash without receiving a receipt from your company. Without a receipt legally it didn't happen so they still owe you. It's the customer's responsibility to go after whoever stole from them not you.


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## ducaticorse (Nov 9, 2011)

Grouchy old man said:


> I assume it had to be the customer who told you they paid cash to your guy? How do you know they aren't lying? At any rate, I would have billed them and when they said they had already paid I would have said that we have no record of it, where is the receipt? The customer is just as responsible IMO. They should NEVER have paid cash without receiving a receipt from your company. Without a receipt legally it didn't happen so they still owe you. It's the customer's responsibility to go after whoever stole from them not you.



LOL,
try that with me, and I'll make sure you never get another job in my town.
:smile2:


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## NCTREE (Nov 9, 2011)

Sounds like Bonny& Clyde are the ones that pulled the fast one...

Are you sure the customer isn't lying and doesn't want to pay you?


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## RVALUE (Nov 9, 2011)

Grouchy old man said:


> I assume it had to be the customer who told you they paid cash to your guy? How do you know they aren't lying? At any rate, I would have billed them and when they said they had already paid I would have said that we have no record of it, where is the receipt? The customer is just as responsible IMO. They should NEVER have paid cash without receiving a receipt from your company. Without a receipt legally it didn't happen so they still owe you. It's the customer's responsibility to go after whoever stole from them not you.



Very Good Summation.

It may be wisest to leave well enough alone, but he stole from them, or he was 'your' agent.

I will go back into my hole now. No need for RV bashing.


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## ducaticorse (Nov 9, 2011)

RVALUE said:


> Very Good Summation.



In theory, but certainly not in practice. Especially in this particular situation.


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 9, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> LOL,
> try that with me, and I'll make sure you never get another job in my town.
> :smile2:



Pretty powerful guy for someone living in a city of a couple of million. With that much power you should be mayor.http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/msp_biggrin.gif


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 9, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I have a full time guy and workers comp insurance. The climber supplies his own gear and normally meets me at the jobs. Maybe I am wrong but I thought that would fall under a sub contractor. I don't know if he has insurance or not, I thought that's why my policy has a thing saying about sub contractors being covered. Maybe I read that wrong. Idk. As far as a contract, I didn't have one with them. I gave them a verbal quote and they gave me a verbal go ahead with that and handshake. Do you have the customer sign a contract or quote for each job?



We sell about 30-40 jobs a week. Every one has a signed quote from us and no job is started without a written authorization. (either a signature or an email note)


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## ducaticorse (Nov 9, 2011)

BC WetCoast said:


> Pretty powerful guy for someone living in a city of a couple of million. With that much power you should be mayor.http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/msp_biggrin.gif



LOL. I was speaking from a home owners prospective.

Why on earth would I hire a tree service to cut my own trees down? 

My point is, that going after a homeowner because he paid the guy who at the time was obviously a representitive of the company is VERY BAD FORM. I'm 99.9 percent positive it wasn't written in the contract that the HO was supposed to hand deliver the payment to the owner of the tree service. HO's constantly hand over payment to my men when I am not around at the end of a job.


And btw, I have single handedly shut down a "competitor" before. Although he made it very easy for me because he was such a piece of shyte.


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## fdoberman (Nov 10, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> And btw, I have single handedly shut down a "competitor" before. Although he made it very easy for me because he was such a piece of shyte.




Only because you had a Dobie by your side.

Mine enables me to do anything, right after I drive him to MickyDs for a burger.


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## trimmmed (Nov 10, 2011)

fdoberman said:


> When you're feeling completely frustrated because the cops blew you off REMEMBER, 1099 the sumbych!
> 
> He'll be turning up to talk in 18 months to 3 years when IRS slams his ass for failing to report income!
> 
> Lord I do love the 1099 form.



pretty stupid advice right there


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## ozzy42 (Nov 10, 2011)

Has our resident Spacemule been notified?





IMO I know a lot of rip offs often end up as just civil suits but,this sounds like simple employee theft.
The same as if a 7-11 cashier took the money from the register at the end of the day.


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 10, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I Do you have the customer sign a contract or quote for each job?



Yes


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## indiansprings (Nov 10, 2011)

I sure as hell wouldn't consider letting the guy work it off. With my luck he would injure himself or fake a serious injury and it would cost me 100 times more in the long run. The joker would prolly fall a tree into a house and cause your insurance to skyrocket. The best option is to go to the police and see what they have to tell you. It's too bad you can't just have the guys legs broke without getting in thrown in the slammer, it's what guys like him deserve, I don't buy the wife story at all.


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## Grouchy old man (Nov 10, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> My point is, that going after a homeowner because he paid the guy who at the time was obviously a representitive of the company is VERY BAD FORM.



A guy knocks on the customer's door and says here is there to collect. How does that make him a representitive of the company? Maybe if he had a shirt with the company name on it or he pulled up in a truck with the company name on it I might have some proof. Did he? 

But to hand over cash to a stanger at your door and not get at least a company invoice marked paid by the person receiving it is just neglegence on the homeowner's part. As far as I'm concerned the HO still owes you because they gave the money to somebody else and it's their own fault. 

As far as your climber, let the cops sort it out.


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## ducaticorse (Nov 10, 2011)

Grouchy old man said:


> A guy knocks on the customer's door and says here is there to collect. How does that make him a representitive of the company? Maybe if he had a shirt with the company name on it or he pulled up in a truck with the company name on it I might have some proof. Did he?
> 
> But to hand over cash to a stanger at your door and not get at least a company invoice marked paid by the person receiving it is just neglegence on the homeowner's part. As far as I'm concerned the HO still owes you because they gave the money to somebody else and it's their own fault.
> 
> As far as your climber, let the cops sort it out.



The guy was cutting trees on the HO's property all day fromm the thread starters description. You obviously don't run an operation where you aren't the sole person collecting payment at the end of the day, and that is perfectly fine. And if you used common sense over principal, you'd know that forcing the issue on a HO over this fiasco would loose your business far more money than the bill for this one single job. I can see it now.... The HO is on the school committe and starts spweing the FACTS about the tree service he hired. "Well this joker subbed out his work to some crackhead, allowed him to come on my property as an agent of his business. And when I paid his crew at the end of the day, the money came up missing, and he wanted me to pay for it again. LOL what a joke STAY away from that crew if you know what's good for you." Please esxcuse my punctuation I'mtyping this from my BB


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## Grouchy old man (Nov 10, 2011)

_The guy was cutting trees on the HO's property all day fromm the thread starters description._

I thought I read somewhere that the OP said that the people weren't home. No problem with employees picking up payments, just make sure they give the customer something in the way of a receipt.


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## ducaticorse (Nov 10, 2011)

Grouchy old man said:


> _The guy was cutting trees on the HO's property all day fromm the thread starters description._
> 
> I thought I read somewhere that the OP said that the people weren't home. No problem with employees picking up payments, just make sure they give the customer something in the way of a receipt.



That's fine and all. But my point is that it's just bad business to make a customer pay twice when you know for a fact that they rendered payment to an individual that represents your company. It's just bad form. If I went around blaming customers for their naievete instead of the criminals on my payroll that took advantage of them, I'd look like a huge ass right? And that word of mouth would get meblacklisted quick in that neighborhood/town. I'll take one on the chin, and moving forward, modify my contracts to specify that payment is to be made to the primary contact. 

And what good, may I ask would have a receipt done in this particular case? Are we now accusing the HO of deception here?


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## k5alive (Nov 10, 2011)

i let everyone know that they pay me. this happens alot around here and i have fallen victim to a shady employee more than once, they take my kindness for weakness. :msp_mad:


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 10, 2011)

Everyone here is a tree guy, and I can't believe you don't shove it to people so hard that people would ever doubt you would retaliate for something like this "cash grab" garbage. 

I don't trust a lot of the garbage that rolls around here even with the air I breathe, and I let them know I absolutely do not trust them with everything. Somethings, yes. But somethings NO, HGEL NO! I'd rather put the police uni on my own self, and go hunt some kooks than play the little scammer games with the greasy skeazy hood maggots. 

I hope the top poster really puts it together that those guys in police uni aren't really going to care about anything in a tree service except the crook. They don't care about anything else. They are just going to catch word of the crook, and pull their stunts like tree guys here about the big one, and then go do their stunts. Flex some police muscle in that county, and get that kid schooled in the system "work and pay system." If you give the kid a pass, he will think for a long time that it's fine to do this more and more. Let the police correct his "better judgement." Can't say it enough.


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## lxt (Nov 11, 2011)

I think we are missing the big picture honestly!!

first, the climber is a "SUB" & the OP has no clue if he even has insurance? then to follow the home owners werent home? But....they paid "CASH"....why? unless the homeowners agreed to cash with the contractor before hand?

whats even stranger........so bonnie & clyde show up un-announced & the home owner just happened to have enough spare pocket change to foot the whole bill........Pppllleeeaassee, unless they stopped at the bank & W/D the money & why would they do that unless it was previously agreed upon?

Im thinking this whole operation is sketchy & this particular job just shows why you should do things above board......what will the police do? nothing......! cause there was no CONTRACT, it was a cash deal apparently, If I was the HO & you were gonna try to make me pay twice (when there is no contract)..................Id claim defiant trespass & property damage!!!!! Hmm... bet that would cost a little more than what was owed uh?

Let it be, hire on the books, learn your lesson & move on!!!!!



LXT...............


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 11, 2011)

Lxt you should stop I assuming because it makes you look like a a**. I made a mistake in assuming he had insurance, and also in thinking he could be classified as a sub because he supplied his on gear. As far as the sub thing goes, i have a friend that works for a drywaller and all the guys that work for him are subs. They suppl y there own gear but work on the jobs he tells them to do during the times he tells them to be there. Idk how he gets away with it but he has for 30 years. It was not nor ever ws a cash job. I talked to the ho today and she asked me if he gave me the money. I told her no. She then mentioned to me that he did a job for her mom that he left half done saying he was working for me. I informed her that he wasn't working for me anymore.


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## lxt (Nov 11, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Lxt you should stop I assuming because it makes you look like a a**. I made a mistake in assuming he had insurance, and also in thinking he could be classified as a sub because he supplied his on gear. As far as the sub thing goes, i have a friend that works for a drywaller and all the guys that work for him are subs. They suppl y there own gear but work on the jobs he tells them to do during the times he tells them to be there. Idk how he gets away with it but he has for 30 years. It was not nor ever ws a cash job. I talked to the ho today and she asked me if he gave me the money. I told her no. She then mentioned to me that he did a job for her mom that he left half done saying he was working for me. I informed her that he wasn't working for me anymore.





No one is assuming anything, we are going by what you tell us & the fact that you "thought" & "Assumed" about him being a sub & his having insurance?................makes you the A-hole!! you come on here professing to be a legall operation & the simplest things you dont even know about!!!, you had no contract, hired an non-insured person & now have lost money..........sounds like an honest business to me!!

Im not trying to cut ya down..........but I have to compete with the likes of what you have mentioned in your operation..Here!! So from a legall operation standpoint I have no sympathy for you, Put your future help on the books, get a signed contract & then you`ll be good to go!! So instead of coming on here crying about "billy the kid" stabbing you in the back & taking money....you should be consulting with the Atty for your Biz dealings & have him type up a contract if you dont already have one!!

BTW...........maybe a look at the Dept of L & I website so you will have the information regarding employee(s)/Employer rights which you should already have??? try reading it!!!




God..................Now the "under the table types" complain about being screwed, Ha, welcome aboard! hacks being hacked!!



LXT...............................


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 11, 2011)

Lxt you can take your legitamate and shove it up your a**. I am just a legit as you. It was never a under thr table deal. Do I have to speel it out with alpha blocks for you.


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## ducaticorse (Nov 11, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Lxt you can take your legitamate and shove it up your a**. I am just a legit as you. It was never a under thr table deal. Do I have to speel it out with alpha blocks for you.



Although his remarks are inflammatory, he has a point. You need to really pay attention as to whether or not your "subs" are actually defined as "subs" in the eyes of state regulations. We all know that it's very difficult to find good help in this business, so I understand how this situation occured. you can initiate a few fail safes into your contracts and meetings with customers to prevent this from happening again.
live and learn bro.


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## lxt (Nov 11, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Lxt you can take your legitamate and shove it up your a**. I am just a legit as you. It was never a under thr table deal. Do I have to speel it out with alpha blocks for you.



LOL, No need to spell it with alpha blocks..........but perhaps you should engage in a remedial spelling course? by the looks of the above!

Im not gonna argue with you, its not worth the time & if you were legitamate you would already know what we are telling you....But you dont! Yep, thats the true mark of an above board company right there!! Anyway...you`re the one who lost money & you will have to square with that on your own................Because by what all you have said & the way you have explained it...you have no Legal recourse!!


LXT..................


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## WDG (Nov 11, 2011)

OP, it seems to me this is clearly a legal matter, so when you spoke with your attorney about it, what did he say?


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## ducaticorse (Nov 11, 2011)

I didn't see the info if it was posted, but how much money are we talking about here anyway?


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 11, 2011)

The moral in this story is get with the regulations, or you will have no ability to redefine when you've been defied, and oooohhhhhh you *will* without exception be defied. Ever hear what Einstein said. He had a good point. "I believe that there are two things that are infinite; stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the second one." Guys are born every day, and they are all stupid about right and wrong. Sometimes if you introduce them to the local authority, they wise up and they can thank you down the road sometime. 

My advice to anyone is to go ahead and ride solo on your own when you have to, hacks, but the rest of us are going to take this thing by the reigns, lock stock, law and order, and we're going to keep what we earned out of the pest's little greazy pincers. :msp_sneaky:


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## Grouchy old man (Nov 11, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> I didn't see the info if it was posted, but how much money are we talking about here anyway?



Way back in his original post:



> So far he has stole $1300 that I have found out about. I have been trying to get ahold of all the customers i billed and let them know whats going on.



With that and all he's added to his story since I'm beginning to doubt that the police will even want to bother and an attorney is just going to suck more money from you. Quit while you are ahead, cut your losses and learn from this. Make changes to the way you collect your money- and don't hire crackheads.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 11, 2011)

I spoke with the police today, and he said I do have a case, I need to go to the district justice office monday and file paperwork. He said it doesnt matter that I was paying him as a sub or not, the fact is he still stole the money. Have to stop in at the DJ mondays and see what happens. I am trying to hire a good climber / ground guy to replace my existing lazy a** employee, but it is extremely hard to find someone thats not a crack head. I keep getting people that want me to teach them how to climb.


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## superjunior (Nov 11, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I am trying to hire a good climber / ground guy but it is extremely hard to find someone thats not a crack head. I keep getting people that want me to teach them how to climb.



me too. 
I have found it to be one of the most challenging things in this business..


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## lxt (Nov 11, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I spoke with the police today, and he said I do have a case, I need to go to the district justice office monday and file paperwork. He said it doesnt matter that I was paying him as a sub or not, the fact is he still stole the money. Have to stop in at the DJ mondays and see what happens. I am trying to hire a good climber / ground guy to replace my existing lazy a** employee, but it is extremely hard to find someone thats not a crack head. I keep getting people that want me to teach them how to climb.



Its not being a "Sub" that matters............its the fact that its your word against his & with no contract you are screwed, if you have a case????? & you dont!!! cause... WTF it was theft!!! so you say,..........then why didnt the police have you file charges & why is he not yet arrested?, going to the Dist Justice is for civil matters, Not a theft issue!! I say this story is BS!!! 

Let me guess........the magistrate is gonna determine weather he stole the money or not based on what?? you gonna summon the HO & have them testify that they gave money to a man & woman.......who prolly wont fit the description of your climber anyway!!

There is no proof........its a he said she said & I would like the district court ID# after you post that you won this cause I wanna check the public record on this one!!! According to your story.........he didnt steal anything! & if the home owner freely gave him the "cash" without invoice..............its not technically theft, it would be misrepresentation & good luck with that!!




LXT....................


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## lxt (Nov 11, 2011)

Actually I am a former officer & this thread prompted me to take at look at the crimes code, specifically section: 3922 "theft by deception" now that section may have changed due to updates but the version I have this is where it is found.

there are grades of theft ranging from felony to summary, however........no one stole from you!! do you get it? read the definition of theft, no act of theft took place against you, the act took place against the home owner..........Now they would have to prove that they were deceived in such a way that the act would be considered theft........were they tricked? if so then its a felony "trickery device" but the home owners would need to go & file the charges

Bottom line is you have no action cause no crime was commited against you...........! God, no wonder you have no clue about subs, insurance or business dealings..........when you file your complaint I hope you know what section of the crime code to cite! you will no doubt end up losing more money...........$1300.00 unfortunately is a misdemeanor if you can prove anything??? worse case he tells you to suck it & does 3 days @ county.............time served, case over & your tax dollars just fed him & gave em a warm place to sleep......!



LXT...................


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 11, 2011)

Idk maybe your right maybe not. I can only go by what the loca officer told me. Mabe he is wrong idk. Its just like when you ask 5 donut eaters about dot laws and you get five different answers. I have learned alot about the sub thing and insurance. Those are 2 things I don't know about but I don't needjust to to keep calling me a liar. I am just relaying what I am told. Believe it or not but I am tired of hearing you say the samething over and over. What happen to you being a cop, couldn't you cut it? I am sure if we looked at your business dealings there is some stuff that's not all on the legal. Shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass house!


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## Pelorus (Nov 11, 2011)

Hey how come there are so many roadside trees around Lancaster that have been topped? It's sheer madness! 
Obviously the ISA/TCIA have failed to get the proper message across! Perhaps too preoccupied with certification schemes.
The next time I go down to the Shady Maple fine dining emporium I don't wanna see no more decapitated trees.


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## Grouchy old man (Nov 11, 2011)

Hell, I had some lady write me two checks that totaled over $1000 and both bounced. NSF. She wouldn't answer my calls then I find she moved. I went to the police. Where I am it's a class B misdemeanor if someone does not make good on a NSF check within 10 days. The detective knew where she went and I wasn't the only one she screwed but they refused to press charges. He told me that the DA's office doesn't have enough people or time for little stuff like that. He said I should file a civil complaint but even with a judgement it's up to you to find her money and I doubt she has any.


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## tomsteve (Nov 11, 2011)

heres my opinion:

opcorn:


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## lxt (Nov 12, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Idk maybe your right maybe not. I can only go by what the loca officer told me. Mabe he is wrong idk. Its just like when you ask 5 donut eaters about dot laws and you get five different answers. I have learned alot about the sub thing and insurance. Those are 2 things I don't know about but I don't needjust to to keep calling me a liar. I am just relaying what I am told. Believe it or not but I am tired of hearing you say the samething over and over. What happen to you being a cop, couldn't you cut it? I am sure if we looked at your business dealings there is some stuff that's not all on the legal. Shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass house!



I know what you`re saying & hopefully the police/Magistrate can help or atleast put on a good legal dog & pony show to make the perp think something is gonna happen!

Not calling ya a liar...........just saying this story seems like it should be a fiction novel, when I was a cop you had to work several different Twp`s after you got your MPT#, I did this part time in the eve after working in the trees all day, @ that time there were no full time positions & the pay sucked, no benefits, vacation & on call for every day the full timers wanted off..............So I decided to take the path of Trees & thats where I am now.

Yes when starting out not everything was done by the book................however, this is why many of us know what the outcome will be..........been there done that, we learned....! went above board & protected ourselves with legal BS.

as far as throwing stones & glass houses...........I can only say good luck to you, you are about to learn a lesson & you wont like it, none of us did when it happened to us............but, you think you know & what you`re told makes you think you know but in reality.........................you dont have a ####ing clue!!!





LXT.................


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## Juliano (Nov 12, 2011)

Dont waste your energy just keep on working, never talk to him again, snitches get stitches
if you ever see him smash him in the face
your lucky he didnt start his own biz legit and hurt you in the wallet even worse, this biz is just as cutthroat as any
this here is the best advice so far


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## treemandan (Nov 13, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Lxt you should stop I assuming because it makes you look like a a**. I made a mistake in assuming he had insurance, and also in thinking he could be classified as a sub because he supplied his on gear. As far as the sub thing goes, i have a friend that works for a drywaller and all the guys that work for him are subs. They suppl y there own gear but work on the jobs he tells them to do during the times he tells them to be there. Idk how he gets away with it but he has for 30 years. It was not nor ever ws a cash job. I talked to the ho today and she asked me if he gave me the money. I told her no. She then mentioned to me that he did a job for her mom that he left half done saying he was working for me. I informed her that he wasn't working for me anymore.



Far be it for you to tell that guy what he should do but best of luck to ya anyway.

As far as what defines a sub: A sub is like the Yeti, Sasquatch, Bigfoot. No such animal exist other than inside the mind of those that chose to believe it does. 

I had to fill out the " are you a sub-contracter" form a few times. For me I just answered " NO" to the question " does yer boss tell you what to do?" Oh yeah and I also put all my insurance info on there.

I got splinters in my balls been there longer than you had your first mower. Why in the world would you leave that shiney bucket truck to come drag my brush? Something ain't jibin fer sure.What are you after? Yer nose is now wide open looking for climbers, better cover up. Everybody is ####ing climber but there are only a few of us around. By the time you are done paying for their ####-ups you'll wish you just did it yourself... and so will all the climbers.


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## treemandan (Nov 13, 2011)

Anytime I have a question about dot law or something like that I call the State police and tape the call.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 13, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Anytime I have a question about dot law or something like that I call the State police and tape the call.



I hope you get there permission to tape it, because its a felany in pa if you don't.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 13, 2011)

Let them get away with it, and they'll make a living or an attempt to by crooked means. Be sure he's on the records at bare minimum. This helps police do their work later on when he does more dirty deeds. Also you didn't let as many people get ripped off as were going to be since you did you duty and reported these behaviors to the right people. 

Those damn guys only congregate with more crooks, and then breed more crooks because they get away with crooked business. Nothing's right about them until they are turned in and turned around.


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## RVALUE (Nov 13, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Far be it for you to tell that guy what he should do but best of luck to ya anyway.
> 
> As far as what defines a sub: A sub is like the Yeti, Sasquatch, Bigfoot. No such animal exist other than inside the mind of those that chose to believe it does.
> 
> ...




That is hilarious! Did you invent that? Classic.

Very true no doubt.
:msp_biggrin:


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## ducaticorse (Nov 13, 2011)

RVALUE said:


> That is hilarious! Did you invent that? Classic.
> 
> Very true no doubt.
> :msp_biggrin:



I have no idea as to why you both feel that there is no such thing as a subcontractor. I am one myself, and I've used subcontractors. I'm assuming you are both joking, but I don't get the punch line.


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## lone wolf (Nov 13, 2011)

I would just call my lawyer for advice instead of taking advice off the internet no offense but this is getting stupid.


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## treemandan (Nov 15, 2011)

2treeornot2tree said:


> I hope you get there permission to tape it, because its a felany in pa if you don't.



Interesting. But I am still guilty. Not only that but will continue to defy that law. It seems like it infringes on my rights as a US citizen... but that isn't saying much I guess. US citizen? Big deal.

No, I don't think i will ever talk or be around any kind of doctor, lawyer or law enforcement without having a film crew taping my version.

The one time I had called to get a straight answer about the laws concerning canoeing rivers. I had a thingy that suction cupped to the phone and plugged into a recorder. I was getting sick of people telling me to get off the property when i was in the middle of a river... espcially the one that goes through that posh golf course. If one of those guys hits me while teeing off as a float my boat down a public waterway I am gonna take it all the way.


Another time I wanted to know the laws concerning towing one vehicle with another. I wanted to make sure I got it right.


Another was when I kept getting pullled over by yer common baconators for not having doors on my jeep. I played what the trooper said. This was years ago, I recall asking the trooper to state his name because I was recording. 

I dunno about such laws. I, obviously am only seeking to protect myself and stay within the law and would be quite pissed off if I couldn't tape anything that happened inthe free world.

I recently bought a digital recorded because I DO record what mother####ers say... jess in case they forget what they said. Thanks for the tip, I will make sure I notify people when I tape them from now on. Quality assurance and training purposes, both big parts of my job,I take it very seriously.


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## treemandan (Nov 15, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> I have no idea as to why you both feel that there is no such thing as a subcontractor. I am one myself, and I've used subcontractors. I'm assuming you are both joking, but I don't get the punch line.



While I did say something that sounded funny I am not sure it was joke. Did I say I felt that there was no such thing as a subcontractor? 

Bigfoot? Yeah, he is out there, sure is, big as life, leaving footprints in the minds of all who have seen him. I have seen him a few times myself. He is there, well, unless you can actually prove he isn't. If one wants to find him he will. Just don't be surprised when he is not exactly what you thought he was going to be. Same deal with a sub. If yer still looking for a punchline in any of that I assume the joke is on you.


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## Dalmatian90 (Nov 15, 2011)

> No, I don't think i will ever talk or be around any kind of doctor, lawyer or law enforcement without having a film crew taping my version.



Law enforcement may have finally overstepped reason and screwed themselves on this matter.

They've been using the two-party consent for audio recordings in some states to go after folks videoing cops, especially with cell phones. If you didn't turn off the mic first they were charging folks with wiretap violations.

First Circuit Court of Appeals covering most of New England has ruled there is a First Amendment right to record the police in their public duties that overrides the wiretap laws. It's a good guess that this precedent will eventually extend to all public officials.

Not sure how up-to-date it is, but here's a summary of how the laws vary from state to state and which 12 states are "two party" consent that generally require everyone in the conversation agree to be recorded:
Summary of Consent Requirements for Taping Telephone Conversations


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## Tree Pig (Nov 15, 2011)

Dalmatian90 said:


> Law enforcement may have finally overstepped reason and screwed themselves on this matter.
> 
> They've been using the two-party consent for audio recordings in some states to go after folks videoing cops, especially with cell phones. If you didn't turn off the mic first they were charging folks with wiretap violations.
> 
> ...



Though most of your info is correct we fall under Second Circuit... just saying 
*
Oh yeah Dan you are a real life Dale from King of the HIll*


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## fdoberman (Nov 15, 2011)

Recording laws are pretty well covered here.
State Phone Call Recording Law Summaries and Information

Bottom line cops hate recording laws because cops have to follow the law when recorders are present.

Pennsylvania State law is probably in violation of present court decisions.  Recorders only cost 50 bucks, and can be the best money you ever spend. They're very small and virtually undetectable. My Olympus has served me well, and often ended disputes early.

My wife's Sony paid for itself 1000 times over when her employer tried to screw her over.

Conduct yourself as if you were being recorded, you never know when you will be.


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## sgreanbeans (Nov 16, 2011)

Danno, I am on your brain wave! I record people all the time too! I use my I-phone now, hit the video button, wont get the picture but the mic is real good! Use it as a bit of security when dealing with verbal agreements on the details. Actual scope of work is all on paper. But the devil is in the details and I like them on tape!

I have used this when buying cars as well, sales men make promises, sales manager knocks it down, same ol game. BUT!! If a salesmen makes a promise on the floor, and you have it recorded. They will make it work, dont want no bad juju about shadiness!


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Danno, I am on your brain wave! I record people all the time too! I use my I-phone now, hit the video button, wont get the picture but the mic is real good! Use it as a bit of security when dealing with verbal agreements on the details. Actual scope of work is all on paper. But the devil is in the details and I like them on tape!
> 
> I have used this when buying cars as well, sales men make promises, sales manager knocks it down, same ol game. BUT!! If a salesmen makes a promise on the floor, and you have it recorded. They will make it work, dont want no bad juju about shadiness!



And I would tell him to shove the deal and let him loose his commission if he lied and you had to prove otherwise!!!


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