# hey fallers, 45 or sideslope?



## hammerlogging (Jul 31, 2009)

So, I was cutting a nice big clearcut over the past few days, actually just an opening, but lets say we now have a gap about 250' deep and about 1000' long, before I rounded a point and transitioned into a shelterwood.

So, its averaging about 60% slope. Pretty steep, not too bad of ground though. I sidesloped the whole block (except what just wouldn't). Sure is pretty, and less up and down for limbing and topping. One of the other fallers prefers 45ing a slope because he says it safer topping, less chance of things rolling down on you from above.

Any input?


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## slowp (Jul 31, 2009)

Disclaimer: I am not a faller, nor do I intend to be one.

Ok, but I can offer some input. My question is, what is easier for the yarder/skidder? 

I once took a vacation and my boss took over my work. He had a severe conversation with the fallers. He wanted the unit cut with trees at the 45 angle towards the skid trails. The fallers complied. I came back. Trees were getting scarred more than usual. I talked to the skidder operators and they said they weren't used to working that method. I told them to go back to the way they were doing things, pre boss, and the damage stopped. I told my boss too. He agreed with what I did. 

For a yarder in a partial cut, any angle that helps on the inhaul is good. But safety is the first priority.


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## oregoncutter (Jul 31, 2009)

we usually get a unit map showing how everything needs to be laid out based on where the yarder will be sitting, normally You want a straight shot for skidding the logs, and allmost allways they want logs laying straight up and down the hill, less chance of them rolling over someone throughout the time they are on the ground, and when You go to pull em in theres less tendecy for em to roll (bad thing). I have cut jobs where due to the fact the yarder was only able to sit in certain spots I have had to lay em down at 45s or 90s to the slope allthogh most the jobs are steep enuf they roll away from you


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## bullbuck (Jul 31, 2009)

we have two d6c low track winch cats with chokers so we tend to get all of the steeper units in our area,our fallers get paid by the piece so they do not have time to mess around with wedges or anything like that,where its headed is where it goes,but just as a personal favor to me the cat skinner i ask that they try to get at least 10 to 15 degrees downhill lay on their trees,i cannot ask much more of them because they will tire quite a bit more getting back up to the next tree to be fell,but if they do give me 10 to 15 on these partial cut units it usually gets the but log below the next lower tree where as when i drive directly downhill when choked i can pull it out and down to keep from scarring the leave trees,but if they sidehill at a 90 alot of logs get busted and trees torn up for on steep ground once you bail in you are committed alot of times i will stand on my blade and visualize my path and spot the bucks and stumps before i dive in helps alot because on steep ground cats really dont turn too well,years ago we had a link belt with 1600 foot main line?i think?anyways my boss would fall the corridors for them and they wanted everything perfectly sidehill in the corridors


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## 056 kid (Aug 1, 2009)

Where is you cutting at? 

Cable riggin??


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## hammerlogging (Aug 1, 2009)

Since its a silvicultural clearcut (opening-- less than 2.5 acres, right?) leave tree damage not an issue. Its going to be logged uphill with jammers- essentially a shovel with a tong thrower package but retrofitted with a choker and a dead weight for throwing to the hookers. Pretty good lift, not like with a skyline, but way better than off a fairlead on a skidder or dozer. Logged of course from uphill to downhill so shouldn't creat more danger to the hookers. So essentially its a question only about the falling/limbing/topping. But, thanks for the replies.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 1, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> So, I was cutting a nice big clearcut over the past few days, actually just an opening, but lets say we now have a gap about 250' deep and about 1000' long, before I rounded a point and transitioned into a shelterwood.
> 
> So, its averaging about 60% slope. Pretty steep, not too bad of ground though. I sidesloped the whole block (except what just wouldn't). Sure is pretty, and less up and down for limbing and topping. One of the other fallers prefers 45ing a slope because he says it safer topping, less chance of things rolling down on you from above.
> 
> Any input?



uhm im sorry but what your doing will get you killed just two cents from a west coast faller, fall the downhill it is generally easier to yard out and 100% safer. its all easy and pretty till a log rolls over you. then your just dead.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 1, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> uhm im sorry but what your doing will get you killed just two cents from a west coast faller, fall the downhill it is generally easier to yard out and 100% safer. its all easy and pretty till a log rolls over you. then your just dead.



10/4: should listen to gut, I know a time or two sidesloping in a clearcut can open you up for something rolling down on you,. Should be a no-brainer, if it can happen it will. Thanks for the 2 cents. But, then again, not positive on this one. Sidesloping is common, and leaving some high stumps here and there holding things on the slope, and seeing if what you're working on is or is not touching something sketchy, basically awareness of surroundings, that bad?


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## arboralliance (Aug 2, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> we have two d6c low track winch cats with chokers so we tend to get all of the steeper units in our area,our fallers get paid by the piece so they do not have time to mess around with wedges or anything like that,where its headed is where it goes,but just as a personal favor to me the cat skinner i ask that they try to get at least 10 to 15 degrees downhill lay on their trees,i cannot ask much more of them because they will tire quite a bit more getting back up to the next tree to be fell,but if they do give me 10 to 15 on these partial cut units it usually gets the but log below the next lower tree where as when i drive directly downhill when choked i can pull it out and down to keep from scarring the leave trees,but if they sidehill at a 90 alot of logs get busted and trees torn up for on steep ground once you bail in you are committed alot of times i will stand on my blade and visualize my path and spot the bucks and stumps before i dive in helps alot because on steep ground cats really dont turn too well,years ago we had a link belt with 1600 foot main line?i think?anyways my boss would fall the corridors for them and they wanted everything perfectly sidehill in the corridors



No advice on that "Q" sorry HL, we were clear felling old growth with D10's n winches v-different to silviculture...

Where it went mostly but always wedging, yeh rolling logs dont ask questions or take prisoners...

Re the quote bullbuck, we had a 324D Excavator w horizontal grab spit a track last week, lucky had another 324D on site to help lift the limper but still nearly a day on the steep ground to egt it back on... I bailed to other jobs n left operators n foremen to it, ah the joy of bein a suby...


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## bullbuck (Aug 2, 2009)

i hear you arbor,we used to only have one d6,it would get i little sketchy shoving it around with the 380grapple on the steeps,when we got the second cat it made it nice you could shove the wounded soldier of the hill,and closer to the low boy if needed


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 2, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> 10/4: should listen to gut, I know a time or two sidesloping in a clearcut can open you up for something rolling down on you,. Should be a no-brainer, if it can happen it will. Thanks for the 2 cents. But, then again, not positive on this one. Sidesloping is common, and leaving some high stumps here and there holding things on the slope, and seeing if what you're working on is or is not touching something sketchy, basically awareness of surroundings, that bad?



it can be done, and is done, but dont let that give you a false sense of security. and trust me, everytime you do it your gambling with your life. being a faller is dangerous enough as it is, dont try to kill yourself.


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## bullbuck (Aug 2, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> it can be done, and is done, but dont let that give you a false sense of security. and trust me, everytime you do it your gambling with your life. being a faller is dangerous enough as it is, dont try to kill yourself.



words of wisdom there,when i first started i was told "it is what you dont see that gets you"this keeps me punchy to this day.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 2, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> words of wisdom there,when i first started i was told "it is what you dont see that gets you"this keeps me punchy to this day.



Kind of off topic of rolling trees, but I have had my fair share of rocks from pebble size to vokswagen size break loose uphill from me when I am cutting.


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## bullbuck (Aug 2, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> Kind of off topic of rolling trees, but I have had my fair share of rocks from pebble size to vokswagen size break loose uphill from me when I am cutting.



i dislike this topic also but,there was a landing man in this area just walking the deck minding his own business when a rock kicked loose from a dozer way up on the ridge found its way directly to him,and it cost him his life,just a bad deal


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## captainsteep (Aug 2, 2009)

nice to see you working, I have found that its better to cut that way for the chocker setters because its easer and faster to pick up you got less tops to deal with and when you are done with a area it looks nice.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 3, 2009)

yeah, and blocks are cut from downhill to uphill, so its not like its a whole mountain's worth there above you laid out.

If/when there is a processor working behind the initial extraction and so we have no limbing and topping except for the largest stems, then dumping downhill is a no-brianer.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 3, 2009)

Now hold it here .. Did you start your strip from the bottom of the unit ,or the top ....... You always start at the bottom and work up .... I try to always keep my timber @ about 15 degrees below level ... Meaning , I want the tops to be below the butt , but not so much I,m spending all day UP AND DOWN the hill..... A little down lets the tree run out a little and isn,t such a sudden stop so I break alot less of the log .. Push the break out into the tops is how I was taught ...
.
. starting at the bottom and working up as you go back and forth across the hill will have almost no logs above you .....
Falling them straight down the mountain will mostly get you sent walkin down the road ,kickin rocks mad and talkin to yourself up here ............


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 3, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Now hold it here .. Did you start your strip from the bottom of the unit ,or the top ....... You always start at the bottom and work up .... I try to always keep my timber @ about 15 degrees below level ... Meaning , I want the tops to be below the butt , but not so much I,m spending all day UP AND DOWN the hill..... A little down lets the tree run out a little and isn,t such a sudden stop so I break alot less of the log .. Push the break out into the tops is how I was taught ...
> .
> . starting at the bottom and working up as you go back and forth across the hill will have almost no logs above you .....
> Falling them straight down the mountain will mostly get you sent walkin down the road ,kickin rocks mad and talkin to yourself up here ............



i dissagree with you. most of the time you need to go straight down the mountain, the yarder is generally on the landing which is generally above where your working lol. always fall safely, anything else is dumb. and its not having trees above you thats the most dangerous part its the fact that you have something that gravity is trying to make roll down a hill , and countless variables when considering the terrain, makes for exceptionally dangerous limbing, its as bad as falling uphill and should be done about as often.


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## Metals406 (Aug 3, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Now hold it here .. Did you start your strip from the bottom of the unit ,or the top ....... You always start at the bottom and work up .... I try to always keep my timber @ about 15 degrees below level ... Meaning , I want the tops to be below the butt , but not so much I,m spending all day UP AND DOWN the hill..... A little down lets the tree run out a little and isn,t such a sudden stop so I break alot less of the log .. Push the break out into the tops is how I was taught ...
> .
> . starting at the bottom and working up as you go back and forth across the hill will have almost no logs above you .....
> Falling them straight down the mountain will mostly get you sent walkin down the road ,kickin rocks mad and talkin to yourself up here ............



That's generally how our sawyers laid out for us, or 45° (ish) to horizontal of the slope. It worked well for yarding.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 3, 2009)

Bark , you hav'nt cut timber up here have you ??
. You can disagree all you want , but you don,t fall timber straight down the mountain unless you have to ......... 
.
.
. I can just see someone doing that . Up here you work your lead with the ground and wind .. We have lots of both that change real often ......
.
. Hopefully guys like Hump or John Ellison , or others who have cut in both places will reply .... If you are falling slightly down hill and keep a little bit of a belly in your strip , you won,t have logs above you ........


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## Humptulips (Aug 3, 2009)

Tramp Busheler has got it right for for timber that is to be bucked. In a clearcut and bigger wood this is the way it's done. 
The straight down the hill stuff. That came into its own when the processors started showing up on the landings. Yarding tree length for a proccessor that's the way to go. You can quarter them a little across the hill but you should know the way the rigging crew is going to work in to it. Lay it out so the tops come first and your soul will be cursed for eternity.
Then there is thinning. That is usually straight down the hill in the corridor and quartering to the sides away from the corridor. 
In my opinion the lay of the ground usually determines the how things will be layed out so no hard and fast rule much like the rest of logging. You have to size each strip up .


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 3, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Tramp Busheler has got it right for for timber that is to be bucked. In a clearcut and bigger wood this is the way it's done.
> The straight down the hill stuff. That came into its own when the processors started showing up on the landings. Yarding tree length for a proccessor that's the way to go. You can quarter them a little across the hill but you should know the way the rigging crew is going to work in to it. Lay it out so the tops come first and your soul will be cursed for eternity.
> Then there is thinning. That is usually straight down the hill in the corridor and quartering to the sides away from the corridor.
> In my opinion the lay of the ground usually determines the how things will be layed out so no hard and fast rule much like the rest of logging. You have to size each strip up .



i agree with you


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## hammerlogging (Aug 3, 2009)

The most awful thin g about dumoing them straight down hill, atleast in hw country, is that when you're limbing and topping, there really isn't one good side to stand on, the tree is liable to roll either way. AND, have you ever had a 90' stem come sliding by you at about 40mph when you lopped the top off? Better hope there isn't a little stob to catch you, or something coming with it.

Yep, start at the bottom, like mowing the grass, working the block back and forth, I kind of get a 45 across the bottomg of the block sometimes, whether to keep in the shade better, or stay out from under things.

When I say sideslope, I'd say 9/10 its 15 degrees downhill, its inevitable as it falls.

I haven't heard too much bad about sidesloping, thanks for the input.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 3, 2009)

Not to mention you haven't even reached the butt of the log after walking 40 feet down the hill, now you've got to go the rest of the way limbing and topping.

And, yarders have skylines. Maybe the corridor should be cut steeper to the hill, but for lateral pulls, straight down hill don't make no sense.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 3, 2009)

Hammer : ya , there are alot of HARD ways to fall timber . . But since most of the time timber leans some down hill , it doesn,t take alot to lay it out nice and pretty ...A Nice laid out strip is really pretty . . Timber standing on its nose , Maybe the mill likes it , but I don,t know anyone in the brush that does ......
..
. 
. It,s like buckin blow down that blew straight down the mountain in steep ground ...... There might be an easier way to work your ass off and get killed all in the same day , but I don,t know what it would be ....


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## hammerlogging (Aug 3, 2009)

Here's a dozer pushed root wad twisted like spaghetti around a couple of trees, wanna cut it off for me real quick, or should I just hit you aross the knees with a baseball bat right now?


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## hammerlogging (Aug 3, 2009)

slowp said:


> Disclaimer: I am not a faller, nor do I intend to be one..



I was thinking about it today, how about "faller emeritus"

Or, maybe an honorary degree would be more your preference. When's the book signing tour?


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## slowp (Aug 3, 2009)

These look pretty straight across, but there is a bit of angling. These are to be downhill yarded. Not a very good picture. I need some technical help on this new computer. 
This isn't the picture I wanted. It is taken from the soon to be landing looking up.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 3, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Hammer : ya , there are alot of HARD ways to fall timber . . But since most of the time timber leans some down hill , it doesn,t take alot to lay it out nice and pretty ...A Nice laid out strip is really pretty . . Timber standing on its nose , Maybe the mill likes it , but I don,t know anyone in the brush that does ......
> ..
> .
> . It,s like buckin blow down that blew straight down the mountain in steep ground ...... There might be an easier way to work your ass off and get killed all in the same day , but I don,t know what it would be ....



:agree2:

What hepled me out alot was starting out in the brush, and working my way up it kinds of gives You a better idea of what works good and what You'd have to fight. I can think of a few times in the past I had some choice words for a cutter or two. As far as tops up the hill , and logs coming in top first when I was chasing I hated to see that it's dangerous in alot of ways, and a royal pain in the a$$, good way to bust up logs, pi$$ off you're chaser and operators, and send pieces backdown the hill too. Most of the units I cut we get a unit map showing how they want em laid down, and have prework meeting with a siderod and or hooktender and work out the details, and what's feasable and what isn't, as mentioned it depends on the wood, the ground, and where the yarder is going to sit, and whether or not it will be hand proccessed or worked with a delimber, some jobs I have worked had near vertical walls up the draws, and if You would have attempted to fall em straight down the hill You would end up with a mess of broken tops, logs, and everything would've been jammed up and pinned in down in the bottom which is a mess, and would get alot of cussing, and probably end up looking for a new employer over it.on alot of these steep jobs enough ends up wadded up in the bottom anyway despite how You put em down.


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## Humptulips (Aug 4, 2009)

slowp said:


> These look pretty straight across, but there is a bit of angling. These are to be downhill yarded. Not a very good picture. I need some technical help on this new computer.
> This isn't the picture I wanted. It is taken from the soon to be landing looking up.



I never thinned down hill so zero experience but I can see where in that situation timber layed across the hill would be best and all bucked. I can see a lot of tree damage on that unless you had pretty wide corridors and good lift. Even then seems like the damage would be bad.
What kind of damage do you allow on something like that?
Where I thinned it was private land and they were very particular. No damage over the size of a half dollar above waist height was allowed. started out with 6 foot corridors and they usually expanded to 12 by the time the road was done. I don't think we could have made downhilling work.


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## slowp (Aug 4, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> I never thinned down hill so zero experience but I can see where in that situation timber layed across the hill would be best and all bucked. I can see a lot of tree damage on that unless you had pretty wide corridors and good lift. Even then seems like the damage would be bad.
> What kind of damage do you allow on something like that?
> Where I thinned it was private land and they were very particular. No damage over the size of a half dollar above waist height was allowed. started out with 6 foot corridors and they usually expanded to 12 by the time the road was done. I don't think we could have made downhilling work.



The damage I allow is more than I would for an uphill job. I even make the corridors wider. There was one crew that was on this area 2 years ago. They were all experienced--company hooktenders. They did as little damage as there would be if it was uphill logging. I have not seen a crew that good since. Their production was the same. That part is the real killer.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 4, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> The most awful thin g about dumoing them straight down hill, atleast in hw country, is that when you're limbing and topping, there really isn't one good side to stand on, the tree is liable to roll either way. AND, have you ever had a 90' stem come sliding by you at about 40mph when you lopped the top off? Better hope there isn't a little stob to catch you, or something coming with it.
> 
> Yep, start at the bottom, like mowing the grass, working the block back and forth, I kind of get a 45 across the bottomg of the block sometimes, whether to keep in the shade better, or stay out from under things.
> 
> ...



well a doug fir is a whole different song and dance from what you got up there.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 4, 2009)

and im not saying always cut straight down but i am saying that on a steep grade 45 degree is to much a lot of times, there is no one set rule every strip, and every tree is different.


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## bullbuck (Aug 4, 2009)

slowp said:


> The damage I allow is more than I would for an uphill job. I even make the corridors wider. There was one crew that was on this area 2 years ago. They were all experienced--company hooktenders. They did as little damage as there would be if it was uphill logging. I have not seen a crew that good since. Their production was the same. That part is the real killer.



if your trees are laid out properly everything else goes heluva lot smoother for everybody


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## hammerlogging (Aug 4, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> well a doug fir is a whole different song and dance from what you got up there.



nevermind dude


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## BC_Logger (Aug 4, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> well a doug fir is a whole different song and dance from what you got up there.



:hmm3grin2orange: thats funny


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## oregoncutter (Aug 4, 2009)

BC_Logger said:


> :hmm3grin2orange: thats funny



Never been to Canada, but what's the difference between a fir up there and a fir here in Oregon, or an Oak on the east coast or an oak on the west coast?.
Some of the thinking of my fellow oregonians don't allways match mine!
Especially some of the perhaps lesser seasoned.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> Never been to Canada, but what's the difference between a fir up there and a fir here in Oregon, or an Oak on the east coast or an oak on the west coast?.
> Some of the thinking of my fellow oregonians don't allways match mine!
> Especially some of the perhaps lesser seasoned.



i was comparing doug fir to oak not fir to fir or oak to oak.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

*gotcha*



BarkBuster20 said:


> i was comparing doug fir to oak not fir to fir or oak to oak.



Copy that! Makes a little more sense now!


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2009)

Bark Buster , How do you fall your strip ?????? 
.
. From what I,m reading it seems like you prefer pouring them down hill , Do you have a crew of Buckers ????????
. 
. If you were bushlin , and single jackin , you would starve to death ...


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Bark Buster , How do you fall your strip ??????
> .
> . From what I,m reading it seems like you prefer pouring them down hill , Do you have a crew of Buckers ????????
> .
> . If you were bushlin , and single jackin , you would starve to death ...



everything i fall i limb n usually buck. and i dont "pour them straight down the mountain as you imply, but i like to go with the lesser degree if at all possible. 45 degree is extreme for a lot of the mountains here.
and if i were bushlin or single jackin i would use the most effective method, if i had to change what i was used to i would.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

*Might get folks angry*

I think the guy might be a firewood cutter! Nothing wrong with that they still fall trees, and buck chunks off, but in my opinion from cutting firewood since I was a kid, and actually cutting timber (which in my opinion includes bucking and doing it efficiently and safely are two totally different cups of tea with some similairities. It's kind of like when You're headed home and some old boy stops You along the road headed for the brush piles to cut firewood and starts telling You about the trees big trees he fell last spring!


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> everything i fall i limb n usually buck. and i dont "pour them straight down the mountain as you imply, but i like to go with the lesser degree if at all possible. 45 degree is extreme for a lot of the mountains here.
> and if i were bushlin or single jackin i would use the most effective method, if i had to change what i was used to i would.



What part of Oregon are You working in right now?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> I think the guy might be a firewood cutter! Nothing wrong with that they still fall trees, and buck chunks off, but in my opinion from cutting firewood since I was a kid, and actually cutting timber (which in my opinion includes bucking and doing it efficiently and safely are two totally different cups of tea with some similairities. It's kind of like when You're headed home and some old boy stops You along the road headed for the brush piles to cut firewood and starts telling You about the trees big trees he fell last spring!



i do thinning jobs.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> What part of Oregon are You working in right now?



in the vernonia area


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

I have little experience in thinning units I have mostly worked clearcuts, are You thinning for harvest or thinning to promote tree growth? We have pretty steep country down here in Douglas County too.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> I have little experience in thinning units I have mostly worked clearcuts, are You thinning for harvest or thinning to promote tree growth? We have pretty steep country down here in Douglas County too.



primarily for growth....but i would like to be doing what your doing. know of any open positions?


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

*No*

It's pretty tough going down here right now the markets not real great, We are on a fire level 3 no cutting unless You have a waiver or are in a special circumstance allowing it. there are only a few that have their own cutting crews, other than that if you want to contract like I do,bid jobs, and pay to be insured, and have a decent reputation for the quality of You're work, and bid jobs low enough to barely come out ahead, it's worth a shot. But I really don't know any other line of work so as long as I keep the lights on I am happy with it.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

*Maybe in Alaska*



BarkBuster20 said:


> primarily for growth....but i would like to be doing what your doing. know of any open positions?



How about it TrampBusheler can Ya use a sidekick up there?


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2009)

Do you know Marvin Dennis , He,s from Vernonia . , Tim McCloud is also from Vernonia ... Both good cutters ..So it,s not an Oregon thing ...........Cut with them @ False Island ..........


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

*High lead*

You guys mainly high lead up there in A.K, or skiddin on the ground?


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2009)

Unfortunatly , No ... ... Our timber industry is in bad bad shape , I,m cutting firewood in the interior .... Which isn't bad ' today I worked 5 hours and cut 300 bucks of wood ... Starting to get a reputation for being a good value here in the Copper River valley .......... Using a tiny little 353 Husky . , But I might put a 24" bar on it as my back is telling me it needs to be a little straighter than it is ..... Should just use the 460 for a while , but I enjoy the feeling of getting over on something , making not bad money with a little Pre Commercial Tree thinning saw ..... Course the highest dollar days I,ve ever had with a saw was thinning trees ... , At least on individual days .............


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Unfortunatly , No ... ... Our timber industry is in bad bad shape , I,m cutting firewood in the interior .... Which isn't bad ' today I worked 5 hours and cut 300 bucks of wood ... Starting to get a reputation for being a good value here in the Copper River valley .......... Using a tiny little 353 Husky . , But I might put a 24" bar on it as my back is telling me it needs to be a little straighter than it is ..... Should just use the 460 for a while , but I enjoy the feeling of getting over on something , making not bad money with a little Pre Commercial Tree thinning saw ..... Course the highest dollar days I,ve ever had with a saw was thinning trees ... , At least on individual days .............


Yeah, I know I am not old enough to be wearing down yet, but I have put some hard miles on myself so I like to run a 28''-32'' bar cutting firewood saves me from bending over all day.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2009)

Here in the Interior , Im cuttine White Spruce , Black Spruce amd Silver Pople ..... most are 12" or less on the stump . I got a Solo 681 lastyear and was running a 28" on it . but had troubles with the saw . Am hoping I will get it back to work soon , spent the winter running 460 stihl . and got this 353 Husky this summer ..... It,s not quite a 346 but it is a good saw so far ...... If I was in Southeast .I would be running the 460 and getting bigger saws ....... But I wouldn,t be making much more money , . ...


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## slowp (Aug 5, 2009)

Here's my "strip" from yesterday. I lay it out for easy pickup using the boot scuffling yarding method. 







No need for wedges, but I thought I would get stung by bees. It turned out to be a grayish old chunk of flagging.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

i can outfall anyone


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## coastalfaller (Aug 5, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Now hold it here .. Did you start your strip from the bottom of the unit ,or the top ....... You always start at the bottom and work up .... I try to always keep my timber @ about 15 degrees below level ... Meaning , I want the tops to be below the butt , but not so much I,m spending all day UP AND DOWN the hill..... A little down lets the tree run out a little and isn,t such a sudden stop so I break alot less of the log .. Push the break out into the tops is how I was taught ...
> .
> . starting at the bottom and working up as you go back and forth across the hill will have almost no logs above you .....
> Falling them straight down the mountain will mostly get you sent walkin down the road ,kickin rocks mad and talkin to yourself up here ............



I'm a bit late getting in on this thread, but precisely what I was going to say! Well said! It helps to think of a typewriter when you think of working your face, like the man said, back and forth across the hill, no logs above you. The rule of thumb here is if your tree does bounce below your fell & bucked, then that's the way it stays. You never go below your f&B, that's a recipe for disaster and it's happened too many times to too many good men who are no longer with us.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

coastalfaller said:


> I'm a bit late getting in on this thread, but precisely what I was going to say! Well said! It helps to think of a typewriter when you think of working your face, like the man said, back and forth across the hill, no logs above you. The rule of thumb here is if your tree does bounce below your fell & bucked, then that's the way it stays. You never go below your f&B, that's a recipe for disaster and it's happened too many times to too many good men who are no longer with us.



well said, but i think what i was saying was being taken slightly out of context.


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

*Nice strip*



slowp said:


> Here's my "strip" from yesterday. I lay it out for easy pickup using the boot scuffling yarding method.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Must be a tree a tree length job, shouldn't have much trouble yarding those out! you're hired in my opinion!


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> Must be a tree a tree length job, shouldn't have much trouble yarding those out! you're hired in my opinion!



when i start working again, ill show you some interesting pics.


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## slowp (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> Must be a tree a tree length job, shouldn't have much trouble yarding those out! you're hired in my opinion!



Why yes, it is. Once in a while there is one or two that are too long for the yarder or am I a Yardette, to carry over so I must then buck it. Do you want me to bring the Barbie Saw or Twinkle?


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## bullbuck (Aug 5, 2009)

nice lay slowp!better put a couple more bucks in though,dont wanna strain that chinook!haha


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

slowp said:


> Why yes, it is. Once in a while there is one or two that are too long for the yarder or am I a Yardette, to carry over so I must then buck it. Do you want me to bring the Barbie Saw or Twinkle?



You can bring either one, if can You bring some rain or a waiver with You too, if not I have a three and five year old daughter so Barbie I know Twinkle I don't, bring barbie! I am not politically correct but I would say a Yardette are You a swing yardette or tower yardette?


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## slowp (Aug 5, 2009)

I think I am like the SJ 4 yarder. Runs for a bit, then breaks down. Uses gas for fuel. It is short. Hmmm. A new topic. If you were a yarder, what would you be? opcorn:


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

slowp said:


> I think I am like the SJ 4 yarder. Runs for a bit, then breaks down. Uses gas for fuel. It is short. Hmmm. A new topic. If you were a yarder, what would you be? opcorn:



Heck You may just be onto a new topic, could post it, probably get some entertaining responses. I''ll have to think about if I were a yarder


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

if i was a yarder id be a ty90


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## oregoncutter (Aug 5, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> if i was a yarder id be a ty90



that's on another thread


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 5, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> that's on another thread



somone else said that or what are you getting at?


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## tramp bushler (Aug 6, 2009)

Bark , it a different thread that Slowp started ........need to backtrack and go down a different trail ...


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 6, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Bark , it a different thread that Slowp started ........need to backtrack and go down a different trail ...



hm damnit this always happens to me.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 6, 2009)

Your not alone on that one !!!!


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## hammerlogging (Aug 14, 2009)

Well, on a different note... Today I was actually cutting for a dozer. Rare for us, we subbed a couple guys to pull some wood on a few pieces on this unit.

Anyhow, to keep the fellow from having to pull to much rope, or navigate the 50% slope as he's prone to do to keep from pulling rope, I was trying to get trees butt end down to him as best as possible. He was better off getting the butt cause he was setting out for a grapple skidder, a relentless grapple skidder.

Anyhow, so I was up there on the slope. Dumping them down hill was no good because hed have to hook from the tops ( and I have to go dpwn there to top them). I tried the sloped face and back, including trimming off the downhill edge of the hinge so she'd let go. Couldn't get her ass more than a few feet downhill from the stump. Tell you what worked like a dandy. Dump a tree out in front of you from uphill straight down hill. Now sideslope the next 20 runnin a near 45 across the bottomButt shoots down the hill lilke a champ. Hook and go. Everyones happy- top stays uphill form the butt, closer for me to top, hooker can pull dozer right there next to butt, and MR. grapple gets stems form butt. Wood outa there!

Thats a capital MR. grapple, atleast on my crew, he'sfeeding off three sides.


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Well, on a different note... Today I was actually cutting for a dozer. Rare for us, we subbed a couple guys to pull some wood on a few pieces on this unit.
> 
> Anyhow, to keep the fellow from having to pull to much rope, or navigate the 50% slope as he's prone to do to keep from pulling rope, I was trying to get trees butt end down to him as best as possible. He was better off getting the butt cause he was setting out for a grapple skidder, a relentless grapple skidder.
> 
> ...



curious,this is still a clearcut unit you are felling?


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## hammerlogging (Aug 15, 2009)

It was a new little opening on a north facing slope, theres a big cove between the two areas. But yes, this would be a clearcut scenario.

I had about 8 full days falling of selective cutting since that first clearcut, which was bigger, and sweet.
Its kind of a messed up unit to work- a ridge with the 2 coves on either side down to the bottoms. But theres roads you cant block up the hollers down at the bottom, SMZs down there, gas wells, and some loggers were given access in there and poked around a few years ago. And there's a powerline bisecting the area at an oblique angle. And a face of the ridge at the end over a state highway, with a gas line running along near the bottom of it. With some monster timber on it.


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> It was a new little opening on a north facing slope, theres a big cove between the two areas. But yes, this would be a clearcut scenario.
> 
> I had about 8 full days falling of selective cutting since that first clearcut, which was bigger, and sweet.
> Its kind of a messed up unit to work- a ridge with the 2 coves on either side down to the bottoms. But theres roads you cant block up the hollers down at the bottom, SMZs down there, gas wells, and some loggers were given access in there and poked around a few years ago. And there's a powerline bisecting the area at an oblique angle. And a face of the ridge at the end over a state highway, with a gas line running along near the bottom of it. With some monster timber on it.



sounds like a busy area you are working,i would imagine that dozer op. being a bit punchy not wanting to kick any logs or rocks loose,50 percent plnty steep to get stuff moving at a high rate of speed!i am not familiar with smz,s,but im guessing the gas guys wouldnt appreciate a boulder or log slamming into one,are you gonna be able to access the ridge above the highway to pull those monsters up the hill?


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## hammerlogging (Aug 15, 2009)

yes, lots of natural resources around there, some renewable, some not.

We're working off the ridge, logging uphill, and hauling down.

Not much traffic, but the gas well guy is in there probably once a day. Yes, don't be downhill from the dozer.

He'll drop that dozer right off the bladed road, anything to keep from pulling rope. Its stupid, but we kind of look the other way. Rarely uses the balde except for shoving logs or tops around. The real significant disturbance is negligible as a dozer compaction on duff is minimal and scarrification actually stimulates regeneration, but it doesn't look pretty to the untrained eye.... of course, none of it does I suppose.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> yes, lots of natural resources around there, some renewable, some not.
> 
> We're working off the ridge, logging uphill, and hauling down.
> 
> ...



scarrification actually stimulates regeneration - lol.....welll i guess that statement is true in the sense that you cant have regeneration unless something is destroyed. but if your implying that driving the dozer around smashing stuff is actually good for the envirorment...no.:spam:


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> scarrification actually stimulates regeneration - lol.....welll i guess that statement is true in the sense that you cant have regeneration unless something is destroyed. but if your implying that driving the dozer around smashing stuff is actually good for the envirorment...no.:spam:



well that depends on where and what you are doing i suppose?and also who has"researched"the"facts".we subcontract logging in these parts,and alot of the sales we do are in thick stands of aspen,"they"have decide that the doug fir is choking out the aspen stands,and i agree,its pretty obvious really,but they have done studies even our local college students got in on it,and they want us romping around in the aspen thickets because aspens regenerate from the roots,and it all makes perfect sense until the elk stop in and eat all of the new growth,like i always say "dont ask me i just work here",or if its really bad i say "dont ask me i dont even work here"plans vary per said forest,in my opinion for overall forest health we do a good job round these parts


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

*bullbuck, here's some stuff on SMZ's (Stream Management Zones) for Montana:
*
http://www.archive.org/stream/streamsidemanage00montrich/streamsidemanage00montrich_djvu.txt

*And for South Carolina:*

http://www.state.sc.us/forest/rbsmz.htm


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> *bullbuck, here's some stuff on SMZ's (Stream Management Zones) for Montana:
> *
> http://www.archive.org/stream/streamsidemanage00montrich/streamsidemanage00montrich_djvu.txt
> 
> ...



thanks metals that clears things up,down here we have very few streams or rivers,this is probably why i havent heard of smzs before.we have a "river"here called the rio penasco,if you saw it you would laugh,its maybe couple feet deep and 4'wide that is our river,probably not even a stream in your part of the world...thanks


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> scarrification actually stimulates regeneration - lol.....welll i guess that statement is true in the sense that you cant have regeneration unless something is destroyed. but if your implying that driving the dozer around smashing stuff is actually good for the envirorment...no.:spam:



Well, you'd be wrong youngster. . . You need to go talk to a Forester, and get some edu-mah-cation.

In a Conifer Ecosystem (forest) the "duff" can be very, very deep. . . A collection of needles so thick, it doesn't allow oxygenation of the soil, and also causes a hyper acidic state.

By moving the duff around, and smashing and mixing rotten wood, and mixing dirt with the duff and rot. . . The acidic value drops, oxygen is introduced, and degradation of the once acid rich duff can occur. Think of "tilling the garden for planting, and composting". Also think about what happens when you mix Carbon and Nitrogen rich elements with highly acidic elements. . . The acid is deluded or "balanced".

In a Deciduous Ecosystem, you still have a problem with lack of oxygenation, but some composting does occur naturally. . . But the lack of infused oxygen make it a long, long process. Leaves aren't as acidic as needles, but high in carbon, and take longer to degrade on their own.

Read up on composting, what gases are released, what needs to happen for a good decomposition (ie. tuning the compost) and other factors. Also, think about why you till a garden, or turn over the soil in a farmer's field.

Long story short, you're way off when you say scarifying and mixing the ground with logging equipment is "Not good for the environment". . . It is good.


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> thanks metals that clears things up,down here we have very few streams or rivers,this is probably why i havent heard of smzs before.we have a "river"here called the rio penasco,if you saw it you would laugh,its maybe couple feet deep and 4'wide that is our river,probably not even a stream in your part of the world...thanks



Yeah, we'd call that a stream, or creek (crick). LOL

SMZ's are a huge pain in the ass. . . On a sale, you can't even get a pine-needle or bow in a ditch that has water in it 4 hours out of a year. . . Apparently, it's bad for the environment. LOL

*The joke was, "HEY, who put some environment in our Environment!?"*


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## slowp (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> scarrification actually stimulates regeneration - lol.....welll i guess that statement is true in the sense that you cant have regeneration unless something is destroyed. but if your implying that driving the dozer around smashing stuff is actually good for the envirorment...no.:spam:




It depends. It depends on the type of soil and what you are trying to achieve. You have to realize that in forestry, one size *DOES NOT* fit all. So while you may not want to run equipment all over on clay soils, on sandier or our pumice, it doesn't really hurt. In fact, our specialists tend to believe in One size does fit all, but we folks who get out on the ground, will note that the larger, faster growing trees are growing in the old skid trails. I'm not talking saplings, I'm talking 24 inch DBHers. So, since the NEPA (environmental document) requires that we use the old skid roads, we are cutting the biggest, best trees in the unit. Doesn't make sense, but we are not the "specialists". 

On the east side, Ponderosa Pine will successfully come back if mineral soil is exposed. There's a lot of other species that do the same thing in other parts of the country, with different soil and climate conditions. 

We are also required to subsoil skid trails. But, and with the blessing of the higher paid timber people, I end up waiving this. Often, it pops the roots of the leave trees and they are apt to blow over in the first big storm. And, once again, pummy soils are hard to compact. Sometimes we mitigate ourselves into bigger problems. 

We do require the logger to lay out skid trail locations prior to cutting, and that they only use 10% of the ground, (feller bunchers can travel off them) and that the skidder stay on the trails. 

In the old days, we did high lead on just about all the ground here. That way logging could go on into the rainy season. That would be 9 months out of the year. You can't high lead in a thinning, and skyline takes lift (good slope) so we are using more "ground based" methods. 

So, before you make a broad statement, better research it a bit more.


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Yeah, we'd call that a stream, or creek (crick). LOL
> 
> SMZ's are a huge pain in the ass. . . On a sale, you can't even get a pine-needle or bow in a ditch that has water in it 4 hours out of a year. . . Apparently, it's bad for the environment. LOL
> 
> *The joke was, "HEY, who put some environment in our Environment!?"*



sounds like they would have to be some damn nice logs to even bother going through the trouble of getting in a smz,probably better just to keep moving right on around, too many restrictions,and also the university has done some studies in these parts also,and they say dozers are better than rubber tires because it mulches instead of compressing the topsoil,and they say the ground vegetation return when the topsoil is exposed and the canopy opened up,wheras befor us getting in there it would be say 6 inches of needle litter no greens,couple years later its green all in there,good stuff


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> sounds like they would have to be some damn nice logs to even bother going through the trouble of getting in a smz,probably better just to keep moving right on around, too many restrictions,and also the university has done some studies in these parts also,and they say dozers are better than rubber tires because it mulches instead of compressing the topsoil,and they say the ground vegetation return when the topsoil is exposed and the canopy opened up,wheras befor us getting in there it would be say 6 inches of needle litter no greens,couple years later its green all in there,good stuff



The problem we had was our father-son team that did the falling. . . I think combined age, they were 750 years old. 

The son is the one that came within 3-4 feet of pile-driving my head in with a Larch.

They would cut along an SMZ boundary, and fall the dang trees across the boundary line. . . Guess they figured it was okay, cause the tops weren't actually "in" the ditch. We all know branches go flying when you drop a tree, and bows' and needles, and branches, and tops were flying into the run-off area (no water that time of year, only a little during run-off).

The Forester saw it, and had a mini-flip out. . . He red flagged all the stuff for removal. . . Poor SOB must have used up 7 rolls of flagging! LOL

We lowly Hookers got earmarked to go clean up. . . We were already set up 200 yards down the road. The Forester came up, and told the boss to remove everything he flagged before we continued on. It took three of us 3/4 of a day to clean. . . The boss was not happy.

Seems to me that incident was the straw that broke the camels back with the father-son team. . . Dave quit calling them to fall. If I remember right, the father had also dropped a big ass Ponderosa right in a stinky, old pond. . . Guess who got to wade through butt-smelly water/mud to butt hook that one? . . And I had to wade even deeper to collect branches and bows.

You're right. . . Avoid the SMZ boundaries--less work to do.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

slowp said:


> It depends. It depends on the type of soil and what you are trying to achieve. You have to realize that in forestry, one size *DOES NOT* fit all. So while you may not want to run equipment all over on clay soils, on sandier or our pumice, it doesn't really hurt. In fact, our specialists tend to believe in One size does fit all, but we folks who get out on the ground, will note that the larger, faster growing trees are growing in the old skid trails. I'm not talking saplings, I'm talking 24 inch DBHers. So, since the NEPA (environmental document) requires that we use the old skid roads, we are cutting the biggest, best trees in the unit. Doesn't make sense, but we are not the "specialists".
> 
> On the east side, Ponderosa Pine will successfully come back if mineral soil is exposed. There's a lot of other species that do the same thing in other parts of the country, with different soil and climate conditions.
> 
> ...



okay im not saying a dozer trail doesnt have any positive consequinces what i am saying is, that as a whole it does more harm than good. im all for logging and i have no problem with dozers. but if you think as your driving your dozer around your healing the enviorment or something your delusional. when you make a clearcut, well its pretty hard on the land. yes it will recover, but if the clearcut hadnt been there, well there would be nothing to heal from. do you think before man started logging off forests, the land was unhealthy from lack of dozer tracks? dont call me uninformed and take my statements out of context. you saying a dozer is good for the land or habitat is stupid. why do you think they do heli logging? nature has its own way of, regenerating the land such as wildfires, so if you say in some situations its alright and its not doing much harm, actually helps some, thats fine. but if you want to state how inaccurate my statement is, well then stating that its good for the enviorment is just as inaccurate because one size dont fit all.

This is what most of you have a problem with, you think that there is no aspect of logging that is bad for the land, well there is. That doesnt mean there isnt good aspects either, but any time you clearcut a healthy forest, it will have negative repricutions, its our job to make sure the postitive outweighs the negative. if you cant understand this...:monkey:


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Well, you'd be wrong youngster. . . You need to go talk to a Forester, and get some edu-mah-cation.
> 
> In a Conifer Ecosystem (forest) the "duff" can be very, very deep. . . A collection of needles so thick, it doesn't allow oxygenation of the soil, and also causes a hyper acidic state.
> 
> ...



so why do you think it national forests they do heli logging. do you think heli logging is actually worse for the enviorment?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> well that depends on where and what you are doing i suppose?and also who has"researched"the"facts".we subcontract logging in these parts,and alot of the sales we do are in thick stands of aspen,"they"have decide that the doug fir is choking out the aspen stands,and i agree,its pretty obvious really,but they have done studies even our local college students got in on it,and they want us romping around in the aspen thickets because aspens regenerate from the roots,and it all makes perfect sense until the elk stop in and eat all of the new growth,like i always say "dont ask me i just work here",or if its really bad i say "dont ask me i dont even work here"plans vary per said forest,in my opinion for overall forest health we do a good job round these parts



if they were smart theyd cut out the aspen and let the dougs grow :greenchainsaw: much funner felling.


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> okay im not saying a dozer trail doesnt have any positive consequinces what i am saying is, that as a whole it does more harm than good. im all for logging and i have no problem with dozers. but if you think as your driving your dozer around your healing the enviorment or something your delusional. when you make a clearcut, well its pretty hard on the land. yes it will recover, but if the clearcut hadnt been there, well there would be nothing to heal from. do you think before man started logging off forests, the land was unhealthy from lack of dozer tracks? dont call me uninformed and take my statements out of context. you saying a dozer is good for the land or habitat is stupid. why do you think they do heli logging? nature has its own way of, regenerating the land such as wildfires, so if you say in some situations its alright and its not doing much harm, actually helps some, thats fine. but if you want to state how inaccurate my statement is, well then stating that its good for the enviorment is just as inaccurate because one size dont fit all.
> 
> This is what most of you have a problem with, you think that there is no aspect of logging that is bad for the land, well there is. That doesnt mean there isnt good aspects either, but any time you clearcut a healthy forest, it will have negative repricutions, its our job to make sure the postitive outweighs the negative. if you cant understand this...:monkey:





You sure do have a lot of uniformed things to say for a youngster. . . They don't use heli-logging for the benefits of the environment. . . It has everything to do with accessibility.

Are you aware how much more it costs to heli-log? If another process can be used, it surely will be.

As far as clear-cuts, I can walk you out to hundreds of them here, that are completely regenerated in my lifetime. So spouting off about the evils of clear-cutting just shows your ignorance, or age, or both.

You've been in the woods maybe, what--2 years?

I've read a lot of your posts buster, and almost every one is full of arrogance. You espouse to be the greatest timber faller of all time, and yet you make statements, or ask questions, that show what you really know. Get a little time and knowledge under your belt, before you start preaching the gospel of logging.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> You sure do have a lot of uniformed things to say for a youngster. . . They don't use heli-logging for the benefits of the environment. . . It has everything to do with accessibility.
> 
> Are you aware how much more it costs to heli-log? If another process can be used, it surely will be.
> 
> ...



if you can find where i stated clearcutting is evil? i simply stated that any time you clear cut a healthy forest it has negative consequinces, not to say they dont recover. and when did i preach the gospel of logging? it seems to me your taking what i say out of context, trying to make yourself sound more informed. playing devils advocate if you will. and you never answerd the majority of my questions, you picked at certain parts of my post, the parts you could rebute and look smarter while doing it. why cant you address the other parts? i am not saying i am the master logger, or that i know how to log everything the best way. for example any time i say there is anything negative to do with logging, you cant address that. you simply state the good side to it without aknoledging the bad. obviously im not trying to say logging is bad and shouldnt be done. i just believe most of you old timers refuse to aknoledge any negative aspects of logging, which in fact hurts the cause.

and no there are no clearcuts fully regenerated in your lifetime thats a lie it takes most forests well over a lifetime to be in its prime. but then again a lifetime isnt that long. if you cut a healthy forest down it will take at least 100 years to be really regenerated, and being fully regenerated is totally different than having a harvestable 40 yo stand of timber.

and who the hell are you to say im not the greatest timber faller of all time.
(im not, yet) but thats not to say i couldnt saw circles around your old ass


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## Gologit (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> okay im not saying a dozer trail doesnt have any positive consequinces what i am saying is, that as a whole it does more harm than good. im all for logging and i have no problem with dozers. but if you think as your driving your dozer around your healing the enviorment or something your delusional. when you make a clearcut, well its pretty hard on the land. yes it will recover, but if the clearcut hadnt been there, well there would be nothing to heal from. do you think before man started logging off forests, the land was unhealthy from lack of dozer tracks? dont call me uninformed and take my statements out of context. you saying a dozer is good for the land or habitat is stupid. why do you think they do heli logging? nature has its own way of, regenerating the land such as wildfires, so if you say in some situations its alright and its not doing much harm, actually helps some, thats fine. but if you want to state how inaccurate my statement is, well then stating that its good for the enviorment is just as inaccurate because one size dont fit all.
> 
> This is what most of you have a problem with, you think that there is no aspect of logging that is bad for the land, well there is. That doesnt mean there isnt good aspects either, but any time you clearcut a healthy forest, it will have negative repricutions, its our job to make sure the postitive outweighs the negative. if you cant understand this...:monkey:



Are you against clear cuts? If so, why? I'm not bagging on you, at least not 
yet. But if you find clear cuts offensive for some reason there must be some solid logic and reasoning behind your opinion. I'd like to hear it.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Are you against clear cuts? If so, why? I'm not bagging on, at least not
> yet. But if you find clear cuts offensive for some reason there must be some solid logic and reasoning behind your opinion. I'd like to hear it.



I have nothing against clearcuts... why do i have to have something against clearcuts just because i aknoledge that its not particularly good for the particular peice of land thats getting a prime forest taken off it. lets get this out of the way right now. I DO NOT HATE CLEARCUTS, I DO NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD STOP MAKING THEM. but do you think that a peice of land with prime timber is unhealthy? or that it somehow gets more healthy because of the clearcut? no. its done to harvest the timber, it makes sense, and it works. is there something hard to understand about this?


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> if you can find where i stated clearcutting is evil? i simply stated that any time you clear cut a healthy forest it has negative consequinces, not to say they dont recover. and when did i preach the gospel of logging? it seems to me your taking what i say out of context, trying to make yourself sound more informed. playing devils advocate if you will. and you never answerd the majority of my questions, you picked at certain parts of my post, the parts you could rebute and look smarter while doing it. why cant you address the other parts? i am not saying i am the master logger, or that i know how to log everything the best way. for example any time i say there is anything negative to do with logging, you cant address that. you simply state the good side to it without aknoledging the bad. obviously im not trying to say logging is bad and shouldnt be done. i just believe most of you old timers refuse to aknoledge any negative aspects of logging, which in fact hurts the cause.
> 
> and no there are no clearcuts fully regenerated in your lifetime thats a lie it takes most forests well over a lifetime to be in its prime. but then again a lifetime isnt that long. if you cut a healthy forest down it will take at least 100 years to be really regenerated, and being fully regenerated is totally different than having a harvestable 40 yo stand of timber.
> 
> ...


is that you 056?,my advice to you would be get about 10 to 15 years in the industry and then see how you feel about things,you will find out it is much different than you feel now,and it will always change,i am 33 a "young un"there is alot of knowledge compiled on this site,if i were you i would try to take advantage of that and learn instead of trying to teach men,some of them 3 and 4 times your age"whats going on"


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## Gologit (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> I have nothing against clearcuts... why do i have to have something against clearcuts just because i aknoledge that its not particularly good for the particular peice of land thats getting a prime forest taken off it. lets get this out of the way right now. I DO NOT HATE CLEARCUTS, I DO NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD STOP MAKING THEM. but do you think that a peice of land with prime timber is unhealthy? or that it somehow gets more healthy because of the clearcut? no. its done to harvest the timber, it makes sense, and it works. is there something hard to understand about this?



I'm glad to hear you say that you aren't against clear cuts. But, as far as the health of the land goes, we can often improve a future timber stand and the land itself by clear cutting. Taking out burn salvage or bug kill trees is a necessity and the best way to do it, for right now and for the future, is to clear cut.
As far as taking prime timber, as you call it, off of a piece of ground by clear cutting...I can't see where it hurts anything. I can take you to places where my grandfather clear cut in the 1940s on our own land and you'd never know anybody was even there. Even back in those days there was a good measure of respect for the ground and the resource itself. There's even more of it today.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> is that you 056?,my advice to you would be get about 10 to 15 years in the industry and then see how you feel about things,you will find out it is much different than you feel now,and it will always change,i am 33 a "young un"there is alot of knowledge compiled on this site,if i were you i would try to take advantage of that and learn instead of trying to teach men,some of them 3 and 4 times your age"whats going on"



am i wrong? is logging the magical industry that does absolutely no harm to the enviorment? your starting to piss me off with this post. all i said was that there are negative aspects to logging. now why would how i feel towards the logging industry change in 15 years? i love the industry and i aspire to be a faller. infact im involved with the logging industry (on a small scale) but that isnt the point. you are taking what i am saying out of context. and id work your ass into th ground just so you know. dont talk down to me cause im 20. im not trying to tell anyone how it is. i just asked some simple questions that obviously got some #######s on here butt hurt.

and no this isnt 056 wtf?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

Gologit said:


> I'm glad to hear you say that you aren't against clear cuts. But, as far as the health of the land goes, we can often improve a future timber stand and the land itself by clear cutting. Taking out burn salvage or bug kill trees is a necessity and the best way to do it, for right now and for the future, is to clear cut.
> As far as taking prime timber, as you call it, off of a piece of ground by clear cutting...I can't see where it hurts anything. I can take you to places where my grandfather clear cut in the 1940s on our own land and you'd never know anybody was even there. Even back in those days there was a good measure of respect for the ground and the resource itself. There's even more of it today.



dude i live in the PNW iv seen a million clearcuts and iv seen every stage from jack firs to reprod up to a nice stand of timber and iv seen a few stands of old growth so even though im 20 i can see how the process works. im not stupid. and yeah cutting diseased trees is good for improving future stands. and your right about it not doing much harm taking out prime timber but it certainly dont help it, and yes i know the land will recover, right now i can step out my door and look at huge expanses of timber, clearcuts, jack firs, reprod, and fields. i walk through the #### all the time. i understand how it works.
another thing to clarify before somone takes it out of context I ALSO HAVE NO PROBLEM CUTTING PRIME TIMBER


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## bullbuck (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> am i wrong? is logging the magical industry that does absolutely no harm to the enviorment? your starting to piss me off with this post. all i said was that there are negative aspects to logging. now why would how i feel towards the logging industry change in 15 years? i love the industry and i aspire to be a faller. infact im involved with the logging industry (on a small scale) but that isnt the point. you are taking what i am saying out of context. and id work your ass into th ground just so you know. dont talk down to me cause im 20. im not trying to tell anyone how it is. i just asked some simple questions that obviously got some #######s on here butt hurt.


look dude,i am not trying to start up an online brawl,and we could type till our keyboards smoked,but not being in the same area we will likely never know who could outwork who,but one thing i do know that hands on experience is irreplaceable,what i meant was log for fifteen years then backtrack check in and see results,i do this often in this area..and the benefits far outweigh the degredation,there is also some facts to prove that,so smartars statements like "driving my bulldozer around improving the environment"kind of piss me off to bub,because sometimes that is exactly what i am doing,not all the time but overall i am proud of what i do.and i would like to add i hope you have the best of luck entering te industry there is alot to learn


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## Gologit (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> dude i live in the PNW iv seen a million clearcuts and iv seen every stage from jack firs to reprod up to a nice stand of timber and iv seen a few stands of old growth so even though im 20 i can see how the process works. im not stupid. and yeah cutting diseased trees is good for improving future stands. and your right about it not doing much harm taking out prime timber but it certainly dont help it, and yes i know the land will recover, right now i can step out my door and look at huge expanses of timber, clearcuts, jack firs, reprod, and fields. i walk through the #### all the time. i understand how it works.
> another thing to clarify before somone takes it out of context I ALSO HAVE NO PROBLEM CUTTING PRIME TIMBER



Well hell, kid...maybe you _should_ go to work in the woods. Be a faller and all that. With your amazing store of hard earned knowledge, your humble attitude, and your willingness to take criticism you'd be everybody's favorite newbie. For a day or so anyway...until they got through whacking you around and making fun of you and you either had to shape up or draw your time.

For what it's worth to you, and I don't expect it to be worth much, if somebody disagrees with you you might be wrong. If the whole damn crew disagrees with you _are_ wrong. Keep your ears open a little more and hold back on the smart-mouth attitude...you'll go farther. But I bet you hear that same advice a lot.


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> if you can find where i stated clearcutting is evil? i simply stated that any time you clear cut a healthy forest it has negative consequinces, not to say they dont recover. and when did i preach the gospel of logging? it seems to me your taking what i say out of context, trying to make yourself sound more informed. playing devils advocate if you will. and you never answerd the majority of my questions, you picked at certain parts of my post, the parts you could rebute and look smarter while doing it. why cant you address the other parts? i am not saying i am the master logger, or that i know how to log everything the best way. for example any time i say there is anything negative to do with logging, you cant address that. you simply state the good side to it without aknoledging the bad. obviously im not trying to say logging is bad and shouldnt be done. i just believe most of you old timers refuse to aknoledge any negative aspects of logging, which in fact hurts the cause.
> 
> and no there are no clearcuts fully regenerated in your lifetime thats a lie it takes most forests well over a lifetime to be in its prime. but then again a lifetime isnt that long. if you cut a healthy forest down it will take at least 100 years to be really regenerated, and being fully regenerated is totally different than having a harvestable 40 yo stand of timber.
> 
> ...



WOW. . . You're quite the angry little beaver. I don't espouse to know it all, and if I sound smarter than you, it's probably because I am. . . Hence the age thing. I've had a few more years on the planet to pick some things up, just as you'll have the chance to do. Bob is older than I am, and is smarter for it. . . He also has waaay more woods-time than I have. So I listen to Bob, and slowp, and others with more experience.

Do you talk to your boss like this? You make a lot of assumptions, and it's not our fault you write what you do.

As far as me being an "old ass". . . I'll be 32 in October. LOL Just blink your eyes, and you'll be there too. Your piss:vinegar ratio is awful high! LOL

As far as answering questions, how much time you got in the woods?




BarkBuster20 said:


> I have nothing against clearcuts... why do i have to have something against clearcuts just because i aknoledge that its not particularly good for the particular peice of land thats getting a prime forest taken off it. lets get this out of the way right now. I DO NOT HATE CLEARCUTS, I DO NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD STOP MAKING THEM. but do you think that a peice of land with prime timber is unhealthy? or that it somehow gets more healthy because of the clearcut? no. its done to harvest the timber, it makes sense, and it works. is there something hard to understand about this?



Yes, a piece of land with "prime" timber can be very unhealthy. . . And yes, it can become more healthy with logging.



BarkBuster20 said:


> am i wrong? is logging the magical industry that does absolutely no harm to the enviorment? your starting to piss me off with this post. all i said was that there are negative aspects to logging. now why would how i feel towards the logging industry change in 15 years? i love the industry and i aspire to be a faller. infact im involved with the logging industry (on a small scale) but that isnt the point. you are taking what i am saying out of context. and id work your ass into th ground just so you know. dont talk down to me cause im 20. im not trying to tell anyone how it is. i just asked some simple questions that obviously got some #######s on here butt hurt.
> 
> and no this isnt 056 wtf?



Yes, you are wrong. . . On many, many things. And who's getting butt-hurt? . . It certainly isn't me. . . I'm not the one raving like a lunatic.




BarkBuster20 said:


> dude i live in the PNW iv seen a million clearcuts and iv seen every stage from jack firs to reprod up to a nice stand of timber and iv seen a few stands of old growth so even though im 20 i can see how the process works. im not stupid. and yeah cutting diseased trees is good for improving future stands. and your right about it not doing much harm taking out prime timber but it certainly dont help it, and yes i know the land will recover, right now i can step out my door and look at huge expanses of timber, clearcuts, jack firs, reprod, and fields. i walk through the #### all the time. i understand how it works.
> another thing to clarify before somone takes it out of context I ALSO HAVE NO PROBLEM CUTTING PRIME TIMBER



No, you don't. . .


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## slowp (Aug 15, 2009)

*Hey Barkbuster.*

Well kiddo, and you WILL be called a kid if you work on a crew, welcome to our world. You are an example, all though mild, of the constant criticism we get from every know it all because I saw it from my car, or I read a couple of papers about a forest in lower Hiburnia and that applies everywhere.

We might be a bit touchy. We've got experience and some education and yet, anybody that wants to seems to think they are an expert on forestry. It is kind of like me saying I watched ER so I am an expert on surgery.

If you want to start over again, just what are your specific questions? I guess I didn't read them. We've got folks here from all parts of the US to answer them. I'd be one of your PNW answerers, if I know it.

And yes, helicopters are used because we can't build a road to get a yarder or skidder in. Actually, using a helicopter means the trees will have to have more volume to make it economically feasible. If they are small trees, more will have to be cut. Those helicopters are not cheap to fly. They take as large or larger size of a landing (think little clearcut) as a large yarder or skidder side. 

Nor do they waste the fuel and $$$ to go chase mountain goats...that was a serious concern of an "expert." See all the BS one has to put up with? Well, it gets to a point and then I get very cranky. And I'm ancient in age to you, but younger than Gologit... Let me see, I started planting trees in 1976....


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Well hell, kid...maybe you _should_ go to work in the woods. Be a faller and all that. With your amazing store of hard earned knowledge, your humble attitude, and your willingness to take criticism you'd be everybody's favorite newbie. For a day or so anyway...until they got through whacking you around and making fun of you and you either had to shape up or draw your time.
> 
> For what it's worth to you, and I don't expect it to be worth much, if somebody disagrees with you you might be wrong. If the whole damn crew disagrees with you _are_ wrong. Keep your ears open a little more and hold back on the smart-mouth attitude...you'll go farther. But I bet you hear that same advice a lot.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

alright sorry to everyone i offended. and your all right about the experience. except for metals, dont care if i offended you.


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## Gologit (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> alright sorry to everyone i offended. and your all right about the experience. except for metals, dont care if i offended you.



See....nothing to it. Stick around, learn some things. And Metals is one of our best people here. You can learn from him, too, so don't cut off your nose to spite your face. You don't have to like somebody to learn from them.


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> alright sorry to everyone i offended. and your all right about the experience. except for metals, dont care if i offended you.



Hahahahaha! Okay, fair enough.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Hahahahaha! Okay, fair enough.



alright i guess i can include you in my apology.. sorry. even though you posted a picture of me as a mouse :bang:


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## Metals406 (Aug 15, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> alright i guess i can include you in my apology.. sorry. even though you posted a picture of me as a mouse :bang:



All in good fun youngster. . . You gotta get a little hazing to fit in with the crew.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 15, 2009)

Well well. That was nice.

So, here's the deal. We're loggers. Appalachian, usually economically mature timber, steep ground. We do some roadless harvesting, some nearly roadless harvesting. We make or open and improve serious roads where we have them, but they are very few and far between. We definately stay below 10%, probably below 6%, of our tracts get any significant disturbance (i.e. roads)

It can be easily argued that if we got rid of the humans, mother nature can and would take care of herself. On a more realistic path, we mimic natural processes and manipulate the time frame of these processes to our economic advantage. We apply sound silviculture to our harvesting, so we can sleep at night. It costs my boss income to do this. But, we are regional leaders in quality. Thats why I work for him, we do things right, and at a scale where we can afford to do this, rather than the typical idyllic po-dunk loggers, horse loggers,and hobby loggers who espuse there super selective harvesting as env. sensitive, who espouse retention of the canopy when anyone knows that its high-grading, a real dirty word. 

Helicopters burn 500 gallons PER HOUR. We use them too. We cut, they log it for us. But its not for environmental reasons, its cause of access, like slowP said. Arguable, but I'd say skylining is the most environmentally sensitive harvesting. 6 gal. fuel per hour. 

We log. We do it because we love the work, but we couldn't do it without product demand. Do-nothing is an option, but its an unrealistic alternative and a pointless arguement. We do it in a manner that best fulfills environmental, silvicultural, and societal demands. What else can we do?

Want to argue about the term economically mature, that its a stupid term, a stupid concept? See, thats where you jump when not necesssary. There was no mention of pros or cons, its is term, with a definition, and a reality. Discussions are useful, but arguing non-issues is just annoying.

I'm 33, a pro timberfaller, got some other things on my resume, and I like to drink beer and jug wine, and coffee. 

Scooting the butt ends down to the dozer on the road worked via the dumped stem. Its a team effort out there. Increase production and decrease the labor. Hooray!


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Well well. That was nice.
> 
> So, here's the deal. We're loggers. Appalachian, usually economically mature timber, steep ground. We do some roadless harvesting, some nearly roadless harvesting. We make or open and improve serious roads where we have them, but they are very few and far between. We definately stay below 10%, probably below 6%, of our tracts get any significant disturbance (i.e. roads)
> 
> ...



your right and i went about trying to say what i wanted to say in an immature and arrogent way, when in reality i should have been asking you questions on specifics to learn. my apologys to you.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 15, 2009)

Its ok. Important to challenge the status quo. Been there. many ways to push the boundaries, sometimes subtlety works charmingly. As has been said though, most of us that like the field enough to talk shop on here are pretty committed, thoughtful, and well informed. Be safe, and save the world, one step at a time.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 15, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Its ok. Important to challenge the status quo. Been there. many ways to push the boundaries, sometimes subtlety works charmingly. As has been said though, most of us that like the field enough to talk shop on here are pretty committed, thoughtful, and well informed. Be safe, and save the world, one step at a time.



thanks, i started to think about how pissed i would be if i had been doing that for 15-20 years and had some 20 yo try tellin me how things work. i will be more respectfull from now on.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 16, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> thanks, i started to think about how pissed i would be if i had been doing that for 15-20 years and had some 20 yo try tellin me how things work. i will be more respectfull from now on.



Thats cool, but its not the age element, its the ilinformed element.


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## Gologit (Aug 16, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Thats cool, but its not the age element, its the ilinformed element.



Yup...the first element will take care of itself. The second element can be a lifelong affliction. A lot of people have it. It's curable....easily curable.


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