# Centerbore cut VIDEO is here!



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 27, 2006)

finally i get this darn thing to load onto a site. This is the centerbore cut done on a 19" red oak. it is done with 2 wedges and a tension rope. the tree was taken down due to some witer storm damage that was risking the tree to split in half over the brand new house and deck. this was alot closer of proximity to the house that i can show in the video. i had climbed this and removed two huge limbs over the house that would hit it if we dropped her whole......Enjoy the video!!!

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/Playback.do?AssetID=925f4c4d1187633e35401fe267933d2d

-mike


----------



## Ekka (Aug 28, 2006)

Good job, took a while for it to go, just teetering there.

Nice looking wood, what was that tree?

And that Stihl saw sounded funny, what was it, and is it modded?

It's a good technique that, and you cuts were good, nice and parallel.

You guys do talk rather unusual though.  

Man, everything's so green over there.


----------



## l2edneck (Aug 28, 2006)

Good vid bud.Just wonderin(prolly missed it in another post)what is the purpose of that cut?Does it combat a lean?Or are yous guys just tryin new techniques?


----------



## Ekka (Aug 28, 2006)

That is the recommended felling cut for forward leaning trees so they dont barber chair.


----------



## l2edneck (Aug 28, 2006)

*ahhhhh*

makes sense thank you bud


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 28, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Good job, took a while for it to go, just teetering there.
> 
> Nice looking wood, what was that tree?
> 
> ...




yea, it did take a little bit to fall due to the 25-30 mph winds that kicked up just after i made the notch (face cut) and the fact that my rope man was trying to combat the winds. If you watch the video closely you'll see me run behind some other trees to aid my ground man in pulling. 

The tree was a Northern Red Oak (Quercus rubra) very hard, heavy, dense, real good burning wood!

As for my saw it is a stihl 026 ( older model ) that has been heavily ported, dual port muffler, larger carb, and running on 110 octane race fuel ( it likes the high test better) 

The cut is used around here quite commonly and is specifically used to load up the tree even without the aid of a rope. you can literally hammer the tree over. It is also used for the odd shaped scrubby trees ( and double crotchers)around here too : example- in the movie watch that i load the house side up with the wedge first and then the other side is done. this is to "nudge" the tree away from the house after the final back cut ( remember that wedge is loaded up more than the other side) 


An yes we do talk funny,,,,but man you aussies sound strange too!! LOL 

hahahah you think that property is green......ill take a picture of one tomorrow that is REALLLLLLLLy green! LOL

-mike


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 28, 2006)

*Hammer it over*

heres a short clip of me hammering a centerbore cut over with 3 wedges. the spar is about 35' tall and 10' from main power wires. enjoy

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/Playback.do?AssetID=bf8c38cc2a9c0cb7f0258c1b454636


-mike


----------



## TackleTree (Aug 28, 2006)

a lot of hammering, tuff one


----------



## smokechase II (Aug 28, 2006)

*stuff*

A few things I noticed on your first video.
1) When you're making the top part of the open face cut, the first time you looked at the sights the saw was not level. The next time you do one of those cuts note how the two sights on the saw that are visible, do not point to the same spot unless the saw is level. This isn't an issue when making a flat cut, but even then it is only an accuracy thing for serious precision.
2) When you bore look at your right index finger. You're doing that to increase forward push to help the saw in. But that is a bad tendency period and especially bad when starting a bore as that is a time you want to guard against kickback with not just skill but hand grip. While it is not a big deal after the saw is in a ways, you might want to delete that from your repertoire.
3) Your escape crossed across the back of the tree, understood with the wind concerns. Think that out beforehand next time. Locally we don't certify anyone unless they can demonstrate the ability to make all their cuts from just one side of the tree/snag. 

On a thread April 30th (Plunge Cut on a Set Back Tree) we discussed standard back-cut versus a boring back-cut when utilizing a rope pull. I changed my opinion and agree with John Ellison on that one. _“I would not use the strap cut release because if there is too much tension it would be a sudden shake. 
If the line is tensioned and the back-cut is made in the conventional manner, you can tell almost immediately what you have, if you need more tension or less.”_

Of course you could set up a rope pulley to give your puller a mechanical advantage to hold against wind or allow them to be off to the side.


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 28, 2006)

smokechase, i would have had another excape path but there was none...... did you not notice the house and 4' high stone wall??? directly at my back. I went through the woods behind other trees VERY far away from the felling path but by the time i got there my groundie had managed to overcome the wind and down it came. 

As for the cut:i have been doing it for years now like this and I am VERY comfortable with this style . and for holding my saw so "wierd" it is due to the very agressive chain that i use (i had just taken the rakers don that morning) and the fact that i only weigh 130 lbs i have to lean in with a little more force than other guys do to make this cut to prevent kickback. 

In order to get the proper hinge eveness on "smaller" trees like this you have to start from this side in order to get the saw in straight without taking out too much extra wood compromising the hinge or the back holding piece.... 

-mike


----------



## smokechase II (Aug 29, 2006)

*Ok*

In reverse order:
1) You do not have to bore from that side. You can also bore from the other side, just compensate. Here is a really nice video from Sweden that was posted here on arborsite.com showing the start of the bore from that side of the tree:
Go to: *http://www.skogforsk.se/KunskapDirekt/default.aspx?p=11362&bmp=11727*
then: *Film för bredband*
then: *Avverkning med motorsåg (10 min) * the bore is at about the 2:10 mark.
(other videos and info of interest are also there)

A huge reason for this is sooner or later you're gonna get a tree that the only way it can be cut on safely is to make all your cuts away from below the hazard. Which of course, may well be on the back-cut cutting side in this video.
2) The second reason is it gives you the cleaner safer escape that doesn't involve the crossing behind the tree/snag. I'm not saying that you needed a second escape path, or that you should have scaled walls and gone through the house, just that you can smooth out that first escape by finishing your cuts on the same side as the escape.
3) You can still lean into your saw to give it some oomph with a good grip. Please be aware that your forcing the saw in is not what prevents kickback. 
"the fact that i only weigh 130 lbs i have to lean in with a little more force than other guys do to make this cut to prevent kickback." It is the tip angle/finesse of the entry that prevents kickback. What a good grip can do is help control a kickback range of motion, to a degree. Putting more force into the cut, should the bore have been miss-started, will result in a greater kickback. Not a reduced one.

As for your being comfortable with whatever style. No problem. Just that when you post a video of using sights inaccurately, expect a comment or two.

And: Go with two pulleys for some mechanical advantage, (wind or other issues), and three for mechanical advantage plus relocating the puller from under the trees intended lay.


I like my rakers at 30 thousandths because we cut mostly dead wood, would go with 35 over the 25 thousandths that most chains come with. But solid dead is so prone to kickback that I don't go lower.
But: My Father-in Law would take a 10-12" flat mill bastard to every new chain and do 5 strokes on the depth guides. Major pile of metal filings at the bottom of that vise. I'm not man enough for that myself.


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 29, 2006)

yes, i am aware that i can cut on the other side, and i have before, in a needed situation. also yes maybe i could have finished the cut on the other side of the tree but i didnt.


----------



## climber1423 (Aug 30, 2006)

PPE  Soren.


----------



## smokechase II (Aug 31, 2006)

*second video*

1CallLandscape:
Let's discuss the notch on the second video.
Step back for a bit from this review and look at the reasons for the open face.
It is a small timber production cutting technique from Scandinavia. Meant for saving as much wood as possible from forests that have been intensively managed and have few larger trees with minimal butt swell. That is great, but it can have some bad tendencies for working in either non-production, larger timber or in snag settings.

One specific item with regard to the usual size of the face. Making a larger opening face is a great idea. Control to the ground. Hear hear. But open face cuts are often weak with regard to depth into the tree. Remember, if you're not trying for a commercial log with minimal loss at the butt, there usually is no reason to go with a shallow face. 

The reason to avoid the shallow face, from any undercut technique, is that a deeper face can provide a superior release.
1) Face provides the initial part or the release,
2) Back cut the second step to the release,
3) Hinge controls the release.

Consider dropping a tree without a face. Dangerous for many reasons. Also inefficient because the first part of the release was skipped. Start adding deeper and deeper undercuts to this same tree, (within reason), and we get a tree that will more readily *start* to fall.
An extreme example is something that happens on the West Coast. Picture a 5 foot plus diameter straight 'staub' 20-30 feet high. They need to get removed in logging and fire operations. The fallers working on these have learned to put whatever face they use in 50% or greater. You get all that weight balanced, without a long lever to assist, and you absolutely need a deep face.

Scale that thought back a bit and apply all this to your second tree. You describe it as a spar about 35 feet tall and have problems wedging it over.
Honestly, that is not a good video of wedging. Sorry.

Most would point out the width of the hinge as being too wide. The difficulties of wedging a boring back-cut on a small tree and so forth.

I'd just like to suggest that since it wasn't being dropped for commercial purposes; make the face a bit deeper. 

On the East Coast, the emphasis is the necessary face depth to get a decent amount of wood for a hinge that controls well. Small timber. On the West Coast, it's more depth of the face to get an adequate release. Bigger timber.

This doesn't mean that some crossover cannot occur. Granted, what works in small timber, because you can get away with it, doesn't make it acceptable to take to larger trees. 

In addition to a deeper face, buy Tim Ards eBook and try out some of the very clever ways of using bore cuts to facilitate the wedging of small diameter trees. You can still do the open face and bore the back most of the time. Just make it easier.

Better yet. Become ambidextrous and get reasonably good at all techniques and pick the one that works best on your next tree.

Look. I laid off the PPE and a bunch of other items. Just trying to put a couple of thoughts out there.
All the Best.


----------



## Canyon Angler (Aug 31, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread yet (it's starting to get over my head), but thanks for posting up. Definitely an educational video and discussion for newbies like me.


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 31, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Scale that thought back a bit and apply all this to your second tree. You describe it as a spar about 35 feet tall and have problems wedging it over.
> Honestly, that is not a good video of wedging. Sorry.
> 
> Most would point out the width of the hinge as being too wide. The difficulties of wedging a boring back-cut on a small tree and so forth.
> ...




Smokechase, dude i dont know why your being so critical on this cut and my personal technique. it was purely for demonstration purpose of the cut. I feel that i did a pretty darn good job on it....yes, i could improve on it and that will come in time. 

secondly, the only ppe that i lacked was my chaps, it was 90 degreese and i was dying of heat in pants as it is...shoot me for it! I had my steel toe boots on, jeans, eye protection and Ear plugs ( muffs are too hot and sweaty in the summer) I appreciate your "insight" on the bore cut as well as all of the technical terms but really, are you going to stop at the tree and run down a check list to the T ???? 

Concerning the width of my hinge::::It was left wider than needed due to the fact that the tree was being dropped on a raised septic system ( 2' below surface) . I did this to slow the rate of decent, also to reduce the impact. ( i couldnt block it down , it would do alot more damage) yes, alot of hammering for a tree, i agree but it was intended.

*If you have a better video of this cut, and all of the "proper formulas" for cutting it, with procision like you describe that you know, and do it in a real world circumstance,,,, Then I and everybody else would LOVE to see it!!! *

Thanks
-mike


----------



## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 31, 2006)

1CallLandscape said:


> Smokechase, dude i dont know why your being so critical on this cut and my personal technique. ...
> 
> ...yes, i could improve on it and that will come in time.




Well, I'm not a tree guy, so I can't comment on the felling technique. But I do know a bit about life that applies in every field of human endevour.

If you get defensive about constructive criticism, improvement will come a _*lot*_ slower, and may never come at all.


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 31, 2006)

i'm not trying to sound defensive in my previous posts : but i dont appreciate being harped on by one person. constructive critisim is one thing but when somebody tells me that im F%$#in up all the way around , i dont appreciate it after i have tried to show some people a cut that they may or may not know. I think at 22 im doing pretty good at this tree cuttin stuff 

I do appreciate feed back but not harping on every minor detail of how i went wrong holding the saw, too much banging etc..... If smokechase thinks that he can do it better than i would like to watch a video from him and possibly learn his great technique. 

-mike


----------



## smokechase II (Aug 31, 2006)

*bait*

It sounds like I'm being baited.
OK, I'll bite.

Are hardhats and gloves optional PPE in Massachusetts?

I said; _"Look. I laid off the PPE and a bunch of other items. Just trying to put a couple of thoughts out there.
All the Best."_

You posted these videos as a _how to_ or _let me show you this technique_. I'm sorry, but try and not do that again without a disclaimer and learn how to drive a wedge both right and left handed or slip in a stunt double that can. (You get nasty, expect a similar response.)

I'll have to fire up the video camera, charge the batts that haven't been used in awhile. Understood.
Locally we have a no chain saw (IFPL 3) restriction in place. Exception is for emergencies, such as fires. Might be able to do some video shortly, but it is more likely to be 2-? weeks with the dryness in the Northwest.

In the mean time. May I suggest the Tim Ard eBook again? It includes videos and is of the open face technique.


----------



## smokechase II (Aug 31, 2006)

*details*

Now back to being civil.

Proper PPE and escape routes are not minor items.

They are important and do need to be dealt with in a forum as widely viewed as this one.

Concept things like miss-stating that more pressure on the saw will reduce tip kickback occurrence is also very much worth pointing out.

I could mention other items but I'm trying to maintain what I started. Professional criticism. You'll get your shot at me. Enjoy.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 31, 2006)

1CallLandscape said:


> I think at 22 im doing pretty good at this tree cuttin stuff



I think at 22 you are way too sure of yourself. You have a lot to learn. Now is a good time to start.


Like I said, I'm not a professional tree guy, but I saw stuff on that video that I sure didn't like. I'll leave the specific comments to the pros, but you are way too cocky.


----------



## 1CallLandscape (Aug 31, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> I think at 22 you are way too sure of yourself. You have a lot to learn. Now is a good time to start..



If i wasnt sure of myself then i wouldnt be cutting trees for a living. and as for being a little cocky...its a must when your the young guy in a business and your competing for the ranks. yes i am aware that i have alot to learn still and i am willing to, but how can i learn from "people" that are treating me like some dumb kid...

*OK im over it, lets all go back to being civil like smokechase said....... *and lay off what i did and didnt do right and focus on the cut at hand....there are many variations and formulas to get this cut done, but as long as the given tree is felled in such a manner that puts it in the desired location and nothing is damaged or hurt then the cut was an obvious sucess.


----------



## techdave (Apr 6, 2007)

*Thaks for the video mike, PLEASE take 'chasers words to heart?*

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to post. 

it is good that you are willing to put yorself out there and post!

please dont take corrections to your technique in the video as a repudiation of your character, intelligence, or work ethic.

Crews like Chaser's are arguably among the best in the world at what he does. Put trees on the ground in difficult situations.

Moreover, from the tone of his posts I am guessing like me , he is a middle aged man.

That means he has seen or heard of lots of deaths due to workplace mistakes or bad practices. including some pretty skilled and talented men who did things unsafely, "just one time" cuz they were in a hurry...or maybe most of the time"cuz this way has always worked ok for me".

What those of us who teach saw use and/or occupational safety know is that sooner or later, unsafe practices will catch up with a guy. Not if, but when, and how badly injured?


In the govenment agency where i volunteeer we have spent the last week talking down (smaller) and/or BUCKING to 6 foot diameter(can be very hazardous in a forest enviroment)fire, beetle, and drought killed trees. Quercuses, Pinuses, Calocedruses. My goal is to use perfect technique each time. But if I posted vids of my work I ould be compelled to put all apllicable failings of what I did up, and WELCOME corrections I might have missed.

it would not necessarily mean I did not know how to do better than what the vids show, just that I need to make sure no one copies any imPERFECTions in my technique.

We who are professionals are compelled by common decency and ethics to do all we can to promote only safe work habits.

For me, watching you moving around with your head so close to the butt of a tree with the cuts in (and thngs windy) was painful. Same for crossingn and re crossing behind the butt.

If we are to restrict the postings only to suggestions/additions and not corrections, i would suggest putting in the back cut first if it not a leaner or windy and is so small-or bore the face so teh wedge can progress thru the back cut once it sestablished, then you can wedge from behined, (when you dont need side lean correction. Wedging from both sides is asking to cross the butt, not a good idea to make a habit of that. If he wind is blowing dont fall, bu tif it comes up and you have cuts in, a safety bull rope tied off to anotehr tree (not vehicle) can serve as a preventer of the tree going over backwards or setting back.


just some thoughts, the nature of this site, is that if someone sees something unsafe, tehy will call you on it. dont take it personal, its a good thing!

Dave, 

Jamul Ca
Faller to about class b on private lands, saw safety teacher and L&G tech in real life, State park trail volunteer and bucker and volunteer crew supervisor.


----------



## techdave (Apr 6, 2007)

*Thaks for the video mike, PLEASE take 'chasers words to heart?*

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to post. 

it is good that you are willing to put yorself out there and post!

please dont take corrections to your technique in the video as a repudiation of your character, intelligence, or work ethic.

Crews like Chaser's are arguably among the best in the world at what he does. Put trees on the ground in difficult situations.

Moreover, from the tone of his posts I am guessing like me , he is a middle aged man.

That means he has seen or heard of lots of deaths due to workplace mistakes or bad practices. including some pretty skilled and talented men who did things unsafely, "just one time" cuz they were in a hurry...or maybe most of the time"cuz this way has always worked ok for me".

What those of us who teach saw use and/or occupational safety know is that sooner or later, unsafe practices will catch up with a guy. Not if, but when, and how badly injured?


In the govenment agency where i volunteeer we have spent the last week talking down (smaller) and/or BUCKING to 6 foot diameter(can be very hazardous in a forest enviroment)fire, beetle, and drought killed trees. Quercuses, Pinuses, Calocedruses. My goal is to use perfect technique each time. But if I posted vids of my work I ould be compelled to put all apllicable failings of what I did up, and WELCOME corrections I might have missed.

it would not necessarily mean I did not know how to do better than what the vids show, just that I need to make sure no one copies any imPERFECTions in my technique.

We who are professionals are compelled by common decency and ethics to do all we can to promote only safe work habits.

For me, watching you moving around with your head so close to the butt of a tree with the cuts in (and thngs windy) was painful. Same for crossingn and re crossing behind the butt.

If we are to restrict the postings only to suggestions/additions and not corrections, i would suggest putting in the back cut first if it not a leaner or windy and is so small-or bore the face so teh wedge can progress thru the back cut once it sestablished, then you can wedge from behined, (when you dont need side lean correction. Wedging from both sides is asking to cross the butt, not a good idea to make a habit of that. If he wind is blowing dont fall, bu tif it comes up and you have cuts in, a safety bull rope tied off to anotehr tree (not vehicle) can serve as a preventer of the tree going over backwards or setting back.


just some thoughts, the nature of this site, is that if someone sees something unsafe, tehy will call you on it. dont take it personal, its a good thing!

Dave, 

Jamul Ca
Faller to about class b on private lands, saw safety teacher and L&G tech in real life, State park trail volunteer and bucker and volunteer crew supervisor.


----------



## techdave (Apr 6, 2007)

*Thaks for the video mike, PLEASE take 'chasers words to heart?*

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to post. 

it is good that you are willing to put yorself out there and post!

please dont take corrections to your technique in the video as a repudiation of your character, intelligence, or work ethic.

Crews like Chaser's are arguably among the best in the world at what he does. Put trees on the ground in difficult situations.

Moreover, from the tone of his posts I am guessing like me , he is a middle aged man.

That means he has seen or heard of lots of deaths due to workplace mistakes or bad practices. including some pretty skilled and talented men who did things unsafely, "just one time" cuz they were in a hurry...or maybe most of the time"cuz this way has always worked ok for me".

What those of us who teach saw use and/or occupational safety know is that sooner or later, unsafe practices will catch up with a guy. Not if, but when, and how badly injured?


In the govenment agency where i volunteeer we have spent the last week talking down (smaller) and/or BUCKING to 6 foot diameter(can be very hazardous in a forest enviroment)fire, beetle, and drought killed trees. Quercuses, Pinuses, Calocedruses. My goal is to use perfect technique each time. But if I posted vids of my work I ould be compelled to put all apllicable failings of what I did up, and WELCOME corrections I might have missed.

it would not necessarily mean I did not know how to do better than what the vids show, just that I need to make sure no one copies any imPERFECTions in my technique.

We who are professionals are compelled by common decency and ethics to do all we can to promote only safe work habits.

For me, watching you moving around with your head so close to the butt of a tree with the cuts in (and thngs windy) was painful. Same for crossingn and re crossing behind the butt.

If we are to restrict the postings only to suggestions/additions and not corrections, i would suggest putting in the back cut first if it not a leaner or windy and is so small-or bore the face so teh wedge can progress thru the back cut once it sestablished, then you can wedge from behined, (when you dont need side lean correction. Wedging from both sides is asking to cross the butt, not a good idea to make a habit of that. If he wind is blowing dont fall, bu tif it comes up and you have cuts in, a safety bull rope tied off to anotehr tree (not vehicle) can serve as a preventer of the tree going over backwards or setting back.


just some thoughts, the nature of this site, is that if someone sees something unsafe, tehy will call you on it. dont take it personal, its a good thing!

Dave, 

Jamul Ca
Faller to about class b on private lands, saw safety teacher and L&G tech in real life, State park trail volunteer and bucker and volunteer crew supervisor.


----------



## sawsong (Apr 6, 2007)

i wonder if it would be prudent to compare this to the guidelines of UK CS30 and CS31 qualifications, the more relevant in this case being the latter which is related to felling and processing trees of equal or smaller diameter than guide bar length.

these are not criticisms, more observations that the UK taught felling techniques seem have disparity with the USA ones. I shall elaborate

UK spec specifies that 'sinks' or notches etc to you, need only be 20-25% of the tree's diameter in depth in order to provide adequate releif for 9/10 falls.

i have read in american books 1/3 and seen people take much more on videos

back cuts, whether bored or otherwise, should be noticably above the bottom of the sink in level, but NOT more than 25mm

hinges must be at least 10% by diameter, more on very small trees

as for what to use where.
straight tree/tree with no lean - standard technique. 45 degree sink, flat back cut not more than 25mm above

tree with lean in any direction other than that you wish to fell it in - split level

sink as normal. staying on right of tree, cut 2/3 across up to the hinge, leaving a third holding the tree still.
insert wedge or lever into the cut
move around to the other side of the tree and with the saw nose pointed down approx 30-45 degrees, remove the remaining third, undercutting the first cut at which point if done correctly, the tree will sit back on the wedge, lever, whatever. using lever or wedge techniques will now drive the tree over in the desired direction

tree leaning heavily in direction of fell - dogs tooth

now this seems to be the equivalent cut you just did. but again, variance, and that tree certainly wasnt a heavy leaner.
sink as normal
plunging/boring back cut in middle above bottom of sink but not more than 25mm again, move to leave the hinge, again, at least 10% and leave 10-20% at the back as a 'trigger'

now, this is the major disparity, our technique stipulates removing the trigger wood at 45 degrees, not flat. the reasoning is, it makes for an easier extraction and retreat, and if your saw remains in the cut when you retreat, the tree can't spit it out at you, it also guards further against the wood itself splitting.

as others have said (and i shant go over ppe again) escape routes are paramount, from that video i would have said you had adequate escape routes should you have wanted to take them, but it's hard to say so i cant comment too much, 

all i know is an instant fail on my course was stepping behind the tree or into any of the danger zones, and cutting with the saw perfectly flat is the most valued skill. that's the only advice i can give, just always be mindful of what you are doing. 

as for only being 22, im only 20, so be careful, take adequate precations, trees can bite hard, and 22 is a short time alive.

be safe
Jimmy


----------



## Highclimber OR (Apr 6, 2007)

Nice technique. and hey Ekka, these guys don't talk funny, they're just from the NE U.S. Almost everyone from around there has that accent


----------



## booboo (Apr 6, 2007)

Constructive criticism? OK.

Give short wedges a try on small diameter wood. Using the long wedges on small wood leaves them hanging way out, like in both videos. When they're like that, it's easy to snap them off when you're really loading them up and having a wedge snap when you've got the tree teetering and don't have much room to put another one in really sucks. 

opcorn:


----------



## Freakingstang (Apr 6, 2007)

Thanks for taking the time to post the video.

I am by no means a pro, but when I worked for a tree service we did bore cuts 99% of the time. When I fell trees, it is almost all I do.

Why did you start your notch at the right side of the tree, then come to the left side of the tree to make your bore cut. IMO, there was too much time after the first cut was made until the tree was on the ground.

I prefer to make the bore cut with the bottom side of the bar as the leading edge on the backcut. There is less chance of taking too much from the hinge this way vs with the bottem edge towards the hinge.

Not nit picking, but where was your third wedge after making the stap cut? 

And lastly, why did you leave the stump so high? lol

Again, not nit picking, just asking. Thanks for taking the time to post the video. You'd be surprised how many people have never seen this cut


----------



## Boa07 (Apr 6, 2007)

1CallLandscape to repeat what others have said thanks for posting your video. 

smokechase II, thanyou for putting up that link to the Swedish vid along with the instructions how to get to it, that is one of the best forestry vids I've ever seen.


----------



## clearance (Apr 6, 2007)

Ekka said:


> That is the recommended felling cut for forward leaning trees so they dont barber chair.



Uhh, it is one of the cuts, certainly not THE cut, but if the tree is leaning forward why do you need a rope in it? Further more, if the tree has the potential to chair why would you beat the wedges in so hard? There are other cuts. I have never used this method, ever, never seen it done in real life, the closest thing I have done and seen is boring into and through the holding wood from from the undercut, only cutting out the center. And that is usually cause the tree is so big that its the only way without cutting windows. I find that a conventional or Humbolt undercut with the backcut sawn a little higher works all the time, perhaps more holding wood on one side, whatever. As far as heavy leaners, I usually make the undercut as far into the tree as I can without getting pinched, I make a triangle backcut, the side away from me first, then I put in the other side of the triangle from the side I finish on. As soon as the triangle is complete, without stopping I keep cutting till she goes. Have to have a powerfull saw, sharp and full of gas, have to have escape routes. If you are working for a tree service and worried, not logging, then get a decent chain with a grab hook from the truck (every truck should have one) and wrap the butt above the cuts. 1Call, no one is beating up on you here, you obviously have confidence, looks like you can run a saw, lots of ways to skin a cat, good luck to you.


----------



## DonnyO (Apr 6, 2007)

*cool vid!*

There have been alot of criticisms, take 'em for what they're worth, and move on.

This is honestly one of the best non-ekka vids on AS! Who was that on the soundtrack? When I started watching ekka vids I thought to myself; " man, that guy talks funny" 

Nice work Mike


----------



## soutz (Apr 7, 2007)

just been through thread. mate you are 22. 22! the reason people are saying ppe, helmets etc is we the elders have seen what happens when all your best plans can go wrong, and when things go wrong they go wrong quickly. be safe. improve this aspect of your work. this is not talking down to you . treework is dangerous as much as we all have to have an ego to back ourselves to do the things we do we cannot dispute the fact that when tree hits person person loses. wear the helmet. re read the thread. understand that we the contributers to this thread thank you for posting and we will give opinions for you to think on. there is no need for any agro here there is more than enough in the rest of the world. climb safe.


----------



## joesawer (Apr 7, 2007)

Hey it is good to be confident. To cocky to learn is not good. Your video was full of mistakes. 
When I was 23 and cocky, I learned what cranial fluid tastes like and learned to wear a hard hat. Last fall I got hit hard enough to bust my hard hat. I was knocked out and woke up twenty feet down the hill, but walked away with a head ache and a sore neck. Becouse of my hard hat I was back at work and making money the next day. I at 24 I was cocky and fell 45' out of a tree. Now at 36 I say please teach me a safer technique.
Last year I worked in San Diego county county on the dead and dying trees Techdave refered to. There where some fatalities and a lot of injuries. Mostly becouse of improper technique. 
These guys are concerned for your safety and the safety of people who might use your techniques. 
At the risk of beating a dead dog. I have never seen a reason to use a trip cut and wedges.


----------



## CRN Tree (Apr 7, 2007)

*Ppe*

Good posts but the PPE is a must. No one is allowed on any of my jobs without it. My best friend has a titanium plate in his head and was out of work for a year when hit from a dead branch not even in the tree he was cutting.


----------



## maxburton (Apr 7, 2007)

My comments, as concise as possible:


The video is very well-done.
You need PPE!
Don't use open notches. Your difficulty cutting it in the video shows one good reason why.
Don't cross behind the tree on your exit.
Your hinge was far too thin.
Never use a truck to tension a line. Rope pullers or come-alongs are more than enough.
I'm not too sure what those wedges were supposed to do.

Don't take the criticism personally. I got my hiney reamed out when I posted my Poplar removal video. Nitpicking is what these guys (myself included) do best. Keep making videos, I enjoyed watching it!


----------



## techdave (Apr 8, 2007)

*Hi Joesawyer...were you working in the Cuyamacas?.....*

and Julian area? for that tree service that did all the work along highway 79?


The one with the crane and the helicopter?

That was some hairy stuff in places!

now we are plauged with black fungus killing drought stressed oaks!


----------



## joesawer (Apr 9, 2007)

I am a hired gun. Contracted to several different companies. 
I worked between Julian and Cuyamaca but off the Highway in Harrison Park area for Smith Crane and and Taylor Tree Serv. 
Worked on the Santa Isabell Res on Vulcon mountian for Bradco Envorionmental Services, it was a helicopter job. I was very suprised to find 70"+ dbh red fir in pockets of alpine timber there.
Mataguay Boy Scout Res, also for Bradco. Made a San Diego news story about Americas most dangerous jobs there. We cut a lot of oak from there. If I remember right one over 80" dbh and I Know of several over 70" dbh. I was suprised to find a redwood big enough to threaten a historic building and to heritage oaks there.


----------



## techdave (Apr 9, 2007)

*Thanks Joe, you should see whats on Palomar...*

Palomar is a little wetter than the retof the peniinulsar ranges, my first big tree as a Stte Park volunteer was a 60'++ fir that took out a 55 inches ++ black oak a few years back when it went down in a windstorm.

These were not breast height either.

The fir was 5 feet plus at about 30 feet up from the base of the butt and the Oak was 4 ft plus at about 20 feet up from the top of he root wad. Neither measurement includes to flare at the union of the co-dominant leaders either. We were bucking below that swell. Just enough to clear a foot trail,

The oak ws so big and so heavy two striong dudes could not lever it out of place with prybars. had to use the grip hoist to get the piece out of the trail.

If I get a scanner up and running I will post pics.

Thanks, Dave.

ps--big dead tree removal at Green valley in CRSP. Big oak butts bigger that my 50 inch bar on my new 3120 xp. 

A monster pine was taken down by a ballsy young dude of an independent contractor who got got poor support from his boss and groundie, and all of whom wore no ppe and wlked around under 12 inch limbs hung up 50 feet abovve tehm!!!!

Pics to follow ehn teh film is developed.


----------



## woodfarmer (Apr 9, 2007)

neither tree looked big enough or with enough lean to warrant a bore cut, i'm with clearance never use a bore cut, i always wear my kevlar pants, hard hat with ear muffs when cutting in any and all weather. i also walk around the back of the tree wherever i need to make the cut, sure beats the hell out of walking around the front don't it.


----------

