# Using your climbing line as a flip line



## D Mc (Nov 11, 2007)

This appears to have become commonly used not just as an additional positioning technique in trimming but an actual flip line in all out removals. 

This usage seems contradictory to me when everything taught about a climbing line directs us toward its protection; i.e., friction saver, cleanliness, don't step on it, etc. Yet of all of our line usages the removal flip line is probably the most abused. Continually scraped against, flipped against, seesawed back and forth against, while being inches from a chain saw bucking down chunks of heavy wood. 

What I hear most often as justification to use the climbing line as a second flip line is a quick way out of the tree. In the set ups I have seen, it still requires a couple of steps before descent can be made; and if that is the case, using a false crotch or second flip line for a tie in would make more sense, having your climbing line preset up for such an event.

I have butt-hitched enough big wood to know that anything in close proximity to that block and lowering line can be damaged rapidly. If this goes unnoticed (the lowering line running against your highline/flip line set up) you could be in serious trouble. 

D Mc


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## joesawer (Nov 11, 2007)

I regularly use my climbing line as a lanyard. It gives me a lot of length, and a second lanyard without having to carry two.
If I was to nick my climbing line I would consider it to be no more seriose of a screw up than nicking my wire core. Also I don't rig my lowering lines so that they conflict with any other lines, especially not my lanyard.


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## treesquirrel (Nov 12, 2007)

I'll use it as a secondary lanyard but not a flip line as the abrasion prematurely wears the rope on the end.


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## 2FatGuys (Nov 12, 2007)

I never use my climbing line as a flip line. I don't like subjecting it to that type of abrasion and abuse.


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## joesawer (Nov 12, 2007)

What are you guys doing to abuse your lanyard?
My lanyard will last as long as my climbing line most of the time.


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## 2FatGuys (Nov 12, 2007)

I baby my climbing line. For me, it's an old habit carried over from climbing on rock. I just developed a habit of not using a climbing line for anything but climbing.

My flip line / lanyard shows much more wear than my climbing line.


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## Stihlboy088 (Nov 12, 2007)

Climb lines are way too expensive to treated the way my flip line gets treated, i work for my self and that's money comin out if my profits so the lines do get babied, my girlfriend asked me when i got my newest hank if i was going to tuck it into bed with us that first night. (I didn't answer that though )


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## newguy18 (Nov 12, 2007)

i use mine like a flip line when doing monster oaks where my regular flipline won't get around the trunk or I tie a quick running bowline and use it as my second attachment after I had a bad experiance with one attachment point.I'd rather spend a few bucks and have to replace my lines when they wear out then hit the ground.


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## treesquirrel (Nov 12, 2007)

joesawer said:


> What are you guys doing to abuse your lanyard?
> My lanyard will last as long as my climbing line most of the time.



Pine bark is he!! ON OUTER SHEATHS OF ROPES.


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## RedlineIt (Nov 12, 2007)

Though I find it a right PITA to use, I've cobbled together an adustable friction saver out of 15' of a good old climbing line, 'biner on one end, prussic to a pulley on the other, my climbing rope/hitch system attached through that. Now I advance and adjust this along with advancing and adjusting my wirecore lanyard as I go.

Like I said, a PITA, but if I hit a nest of wasps, or have an acid flashback and I need to defend against a swarm of Alien Lizards piloting Stukka Divebombers, I'm all set up and ready to bail.

Has the advantage of being retrievable from the ground like any friction saver, and I could not give a crap if it gets scraped by lowering a chunk any less than than a sixteen-year-old cares which pustulent pimple gets squeezed first. It's like Dorito's: Eat them up, We'll make more!


RedlineIt


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## reachtreeservi (Nov 12, 2007)

D Mc said:


> What I hear most often as justification to use the climbing line as a second flip line is a quick way out of the tree. In the set ups I have seen, it still requires a couple of steps before descent can be made; and if that is the case, using a false crotch or second flip line for a tie in would make more sense, having your climbing line preset up for such an event.
> 
> D Mc



I can be on the ground from 150 ft. in 20 seconds or less. I have the climbing line tied in a running bowline and around the tree. I advance it with my steelcore.
I use a prussic adjuster on my steelcore and have a figure 8 clipped into the climbing line with a prussic snugged up to the bowline.

Worst case scenario , I put the brake hand (left) in the small of my back.
Right hand pulls the spyderco rescue 93mm (clipped in center of shirt collar inside), cut both prussic cords and abseil down.

It doesn't get too many less steps than that...


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## D Mc (Nov 12, 2007)

treesquirrel said:


> Pine bark is he!! ON OUTER SHEATHS OF ROPES.



What he said!  

I am often asked how I can trust such a skinny little line with my life (referring to my climbing line) and I tell people it is a partnership. I take care of it and it takes care of me. Through the years I have developed certain paranoias from equipment failure so I like everything just right. (My life, my rules.)

I learned my spur work from an old rigger from the redwood forests so when I strap on my spurs for a removal I am approaching a tree with a totally different mind set than I do for a trim job. Some trimmers never really get into wrecking trees and some production workers wouldn't dream of hanging upside down on a rope. I enjoy both. 

As I have said I use a double flip line system because of its full redundancy. I have had two steel core flip lines of the old style (manila) fail and one new style almost fail. So I have come to the mindset that the steel was giving me a false sense of security. Now I use 3/4" rope and when it shows wear (beyond what I am comfortable with) I make a new one (approx 2 every six months).

There is absolutely no way I would subject my climbing line to the abuse my flip lines get. 

D Mc


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## Bermie (Nov 12, 2007)

I agree if you are doing takedowns or resinous or sappy trees it's better to try and use something other than your main line, I keep an older climbing line for those nasty rubber trees and keep my newer good line sap free.
As for rigging, the tree strop and block are rigged below the climbing line and lanyard so no issues there.
Otherwise the climbing line is used for the quick getaway setup in tandem with the lanyard.


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## (WLL) (Nov 12, 2007)

RedlineIt said:


> Though I find it a right PITA to use, I've cobbled together an adustable friction saver out of 15' of a good old climbing line, 'biner on one end, prussic to a pulley on the other, my climbing rope/hitch system attached through that. Now I advance and adjust this along with advancing and adjusting my wirecore lanyard as I go.
> 
> Like I said, a PITA, but if I hit a nest of wasps, or have an acid flashback and I need to defend against a swarm of Alien Lizards piloting Stukka Divebombers, I'm all set up and ready to bail.
> 
> ...



i second that if ya got it use it,as that what its ther for


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## D Mc (Nov 13, 2007)

Bermie said:


> As for rigging, the tree strop and block are rigged below the climbing line and lanyard so no issues there. Otherwise the climbing line is used for the quick getaway setup in tandem with the lanyard.



Agree 100% - this is exactly what I do; so it must be right, eh? 

I see way too many pictures of folks working down spars with their high line under the rigging block. I know this is taught as a safe method on the theory that it will prevent your tie ins from flipping off the spar. I have done a lot of rigged removals and personally think tieing in below your rigging should *never *be used because of the potential of melting through your climbing line or flip line which can happen too fast with the likelihood of not recognizing that it has happened too great. 

There are many safer methods to secure yourself if pop off of the spar is a concern. 

D Mc


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## TreeBot (Nov 13, 2007)

D Mc said:


> Agree 100% - this is exactly what I do; so it must be right, eh?
> 
> I see way too many pictures of folks working down spars with their high line under the rigging block. I know this is taught as a safe method on the theory that it will prevent your tie ins from flipping off the spar. I have done a lot of rigged removals and personally think tieing in below your rigging should *never *be used because of the potential of melting through your climbing line or flip line which can happen too fast with the likelihood of not recognizing that it has happened too great.
> 
> ...



I agree. I have seen half inch lowering lines cut almost in half by _bark_ form being caught between a locust trunk and a rigged chunk, let alone what a metal block could do to rope when the piece is dropped, or what another rope could do while lowering. No way do I want to subject my climbing/flip lines to that.


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## Bermie (Nov 14, 2007)

TreeBot said:


> I agree. I have seen half inch lowering lines cut almost in half by _bark_ form being caught between a locust trunk and a rigged chunk, let alone what a metal block could do to rope when the piece is dropped, or what another rope could do while lowering. No way do I want to subject my climbing/flip lines to that.



Yah!
The double tie in still applies, wirecore a reasonable distance below cut, and climbing line chokered in tight below that so if God forbid the wirecore pops off, the climbing line will save you.
I suppose an argument for the block above might be that there is a shorter falling distance before the chunk is caught by the block so less shock loading, less jerking....but, the risks still outweigh the advantages as I see it, besides the block below its how I was taught!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 15, 2007)

D Mc said:


> think tieing in below your rigging should *never *be used



Mahk Adams and Todd Kremer had a talk on this subject at a TCI (was that the one in Columbus?) Expo.

Tods brother had recently had a sever injury when the block sling slipped under load and dragged him down. I do not remember if there was a saw injury too, But it sounded pretty nasty. 

Kremer is a very respected Chicagoland company with employees that compete, do training seminars and have published articles.


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## D Mc (Nov 15, 2007)

Thanks for posting that information, JPS. I actually feel even stronger about this issue than my initial post indicates. Until my wife started training for her certification exam I had no idea this technique had become so prevalent (tying in below the rigging with either a flip line or a high line). 

When I saw it being taught by some of our industry's brightest, I first thought who the he!! am I to criticise that? But anyone who has ever seen rigging stripped from a tree knows that it is one of the scariest sights imaginable. It doesn't matter that it doesn't happen frequently, once is enough. So I told her under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you EVER do that.

Because I have gotten so much good information off these forums, I felt I had to at least voice my thoughts. 

D Mc


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 15, 2007)

D Mc said:


> So I told her under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you EVER do that.



I don't go that far, but if I cannot get my loopie over a node or some other bump I will flip in over the block sling.

I think your stance is common sense for those of us who started rigging with cut false crotches and half hitches (talk about rope wear!). I did it a few times in my early days, but the very though of it gives me the willies now-a-days.


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## upperlimits (Nov 22, 2007)

*use of climbing lines*

I often use my climbing line as a flip line along with a 1/2 inch lanyard steel or non steel. I also use a micro or Gibbs ascender so I can always be tied in. I will even use both at the same time if I have a long straight stick with no branches. (normally only on removals though). If there are branches I need to get around, I just alternate. I use steel for removals and non steel for prunning.


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## newguy18 (Nov 22, 2007)

welcome to as i only use non steel core lanyards as I haven't made a steel core for a while but as for pruning i can usually get a leg lock on the limb to hold my position but I carry a lanyard regardless.


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## beowulf343 (Nov 25, 2007)

joesawer said:


> I regularly use my climbing line as a lanyard. It gives me a lot of length, and a second lanyard without having to carry two.
> If I was to nick my climbing line I would consider it to be no more seriose of a screw up than nicking my wire core. Also I don't rig my lowering lines so that they conflict with any other lines, especially not my lanyard.



Well said. +1.



treesquirrel said:


> I'll use it as a secondary lanyard but not a flip line as the abrasion prematurely wears the rope on the end.



That's why you cut off the ends on a regular basis. By the time my rope is too short for use (usually by the time it is under 100 feet) it's time for a new rope anyway.


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## D Mc (Nov 25, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> Well said. +1.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why you cut off the ends on a regular basis. By the time my rope is too short for use (usually by the time it is under 100 feet) it's time for a new rope anyway.



To clarify my original thought, using your climbing line as a working positioning lanyard is not the same as using it for a flip line. In the flip line situation, the line abuse is within a six to ten foot span of your line in a part of the line that will always be there regardless of how high off the ground you are. You can create enough wear and tear on it in one week to compromise it's strength when required in a fall/arrest situation. It requires a great deal of knowledge, vigilance and discipline to cut off that much of your expensive, lifesaving high line on a regular basis. You could end up having to replace your high line every couple of months and most just simply won't do that. 

I personally want to know that my high line is in the same condition throughout it's entire length and not compromised. 

DMc


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