# 60cc Saws the "Best" general purpose saw concept proven over time? Maybe



## weimedog (Mar 8, 2016)

When you have a few saws to choose from, and your going to have a day of firewood hunting or general farm cleanup...what saws do YOU put in the truck??

Coincidently that's what happened this weekend and BOTH Spike60 and I selected 60cc saws. NOT planned, we did discuss the job but let the saw selection drift. A good lead into a conversation / (argument) about what's the best "General Purpose" Farm & Firewood saw?? A video conversation was the results.

SO The best general purpose / firewood saw as seen through the eye's of Husqvarna/Jonsered enthusiasts:

(Acknowledging if you are a Stihl/Echo/Dolmar or whatever fan, you can substitute the 60cc model of your chosen brand into the appropriate spots)


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## blsnelling (Mar 8, 2016)

I would take a ported 50cc and then a 70cc and/or 90cc.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 8, 2016)

If you don't know for sure what you'll be cutting then it makes sense to pick a bigger saw, as it is better to err on the high side. But for most of my cutting a 40cc saw with an 18" bar is what I need.


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## mr.bear (Mar 8, 2016)

when I go out to cut I grab my ported 385 and my 455 or 2750. I tend to go with bigger saws


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## Weesa20 (Mar 8, 2016)

Yes, ms361 is my go to saw- modded ms260 is next. Good compromise between weight, handling, and power.


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## Ferguson system (Mar 8, 2016)

A 50cc saw is what I use most of the time. Next step is a 70cc saw, but I can understand why some might choose a 60cc saw over a 50cc or 70cc. 60 Cc is a ok allround saw, but for me 50cc is perfect.


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## weimedog (Mar 8, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> I would take a ported 50cc and then a 70cc and/or 90cc.



If your a hammer...everything looks like a nail! Of course your built 50's run like OEM 60's...so essentially we agree right? At least on the power side of the decision.  Doubt even you would want to carry a 80/90 cc saw around doing hedgerow clean up. I go back and forth between the tweaked 372 w/ Sugi B&C vs. a 60cc saw. For now trying to live with the 60cc class....the 70cc class sits in the truck still as you could probably see. I've run the tweaked 50's for a long time....finally decided with the 555 60cc is a better place to be here. Different strokes. Of course this can be a daily decision as 2 or 3 times a week until hay season I'll be up cutting something...daily in the fall until snow flies.


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## porsche965 (Mar 8, 2016)

Always good to "take a BIG Hammer" just in case.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Mar 8, 2016)

562xp is probably the best stock 60cc saw on the planet. A true muscle saw of today.
If it weren't for that saw I'd be thinking about other size classes for a two saw plan.
I know this is about 60cc saws and not about brands, but....


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## albert (Mar 8, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> I would take a ported 50cc and then a 70cc and/or 90cc.



That's fine if you can spend almost 600 for the saw and another 300+ for port work and shipping. Not practical for 99% of users. A decent 60cc saw is a very good choice for general use.


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## cgraham1 (Mar 8, 2016)

Somebody say 60cc?


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## Chris-PA (Mar 8, 2016)

My 62cc saw is only 12.5lb, and with a 20" bar it would be perfectly useable for a one saw plan too.


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## 7sleeper (Mar 8, 2016)

I prefer a 40 & 60cc combo, although my old Hitachi CS40EM = Zenoah G 5000 is also a really nice saw. 

7


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## CR888 (Mar 8, 2016)

Since Husky made a dedicated chassis for their 60cc 555/562xp, they put this class of saw back on the agenda for a pro cutters choice. A 60cc saw should not be lumped with an 80cc tank/frame/chassis ruining its power to wieght ratio often making it the worst option in its series. Others have followed like Dolmar not sharing its 6400/7300/7900 platform and making a dedicated 6100. That is the real game changer for 60cc saws, no longer are they a held back and are now allowed to shine in a new light.


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## wde_1978 (Mar 8, 2016)

^-^-^- Dolmar PS-6100 seems to be a good choice. -^-^-^

I don't have one, so I use my PS-6400 as a favorite all-rounder saw - if I want a little more fun I use her big sister the PS-7900.

I know that the PS-6400 is being frowned upon as being to heavy for a 60cc saw, I say it's a matter of opinion and preference.


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## nitehawk55 (Mar 8, 2016)

The Echo CS-590 is a bit on the heavy side too (compare heavy today against saws from years ago) compared to others but I have a friend that has one and he's a commercial firewood cutter , that saw sees a lot of use and he loves it . 
No mods done to it....yet . I've recommended opening the muffler up .
Now a lot of guys will blow the CS-590 off but I'll tell ya , this saw proves it's a worker and problem free except for the chain tensioner breaking but they have changed that to steel instead of cast .
Will it keep up with a husky or Stihl ? , not likely but it does it's work and the owner is happy .


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## blsnelling (Mar 8, 2016)

Fence row clean out? I'm taking my MS241!


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## Jet47 (Mar 8, 2016)

I have been cutting firewood since the middle of January. I have used a 2171, 562xp. 372 xtorq, and 550xp. but the saw that has seen the most use is my Jonsered 2260.


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## lightj12 (Mar 8, 2016)

The saw I'm using the most currently is my Stihl 036; perfect balance of size, weight, & power.


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## dustinwilt68 (Mar 8, 2016)

I love my 359 and ms361 but 346xp with MM and gasket delete is my go to saws. I have 2 and looking for a third


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## Ron660 (Mar 8, 2016)

This one is a little lighter than my 70cc saw but I still prefer the 70cc. If a lot of small limbing is required I'll grab my very light 021.


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## Mad Professor (Mar 8, 2016)

036, but will bring 026 and 038M also. 

026 is slow on 20" and the 036 in 25".


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## Clearwater (Mar 8, 2016)

I am pretty much on a one saw plan now and it is a Husqvarna 555 AT. 24" bar for west coast style firewood that can run large at times. My saw will pull a 24" bar pretty easily with a sharp chain. I would not go any longer though.
I don't see any need for a different sized saw for what I cut, ( Just CAD and want.)


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## Ron660 (Mar 8, 2016)

I've been using a 20" on my ported 372x-torq. 036 with an 18" doesn't get used much. Torque and speed difference between the two are significant. Weight difference isn't that much.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Mar 8, 2016)

Do you guys race to cut firewood ?

Some years i cut mountains of firewood..some years i dont.

I use a 50cc saw or smaller.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 8, 2016)

MY fav (by far) firewood saw is, my Husky 550xp... My helper uses my Husky 55. He likes the 550, but I keep telling him, "you have to wear out the 55 first!" lol

IF, we have bigger wood, out comes my Jonsered 2260, and we both love that saw too! lol

I don't even take my 268xp to the woods, any longer!

SR


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## Chris-PA (Mar 8, 2016)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Do you guys race to cut firewood ?


Hell no - once I shut off the saw I have to get down to real work.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Mar 8, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> Hell no - once I shut off the saw I have to get down to real work.



I dont get the logic that X saw cuts a firewood log a second faster than Y saw..this stuff gets borderline ridiculous.

I agree , the saw is the EASY part..so i use the minimal approach on that task to save my energy for the HARD part....this stuff is funny


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## svk (Mar 8, 2016)

I'd say over 90 percent of the wood I've cut in my lifetime was done with a 60 something cc saw. 

2165/365 are nice saws but it goes without saying that a 372 will do everything better.

562 will outcut a 365 and is lighter and more nimble. Quite possibly the ultimate one saw plan depending on what one is cutting.


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## beentown (Mar 8, 2016)

562xp and 555 are pretty dreamy. I purchased a 555 and have 4 other saws around the farm. The 555 gets 90% of the use. The only time it isn't chosen is because another saw is in the tractors scabbard and I run across something needing cut.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## CoreyB (Mar 8, 2016)

I get tons of wood cut with my 6100. What a great machine. Wouldn't trade for any other 60cc saw.


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## big hank (Mar 8, 2016)

What is the difference between the 555 and 562xp?


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## dustinwilt68 (Mar 8, 2016)

562 is professional saw and has a little more grunt to it, costs more also of course.


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## Big_Wood (Mar 9, 2016)

man that's some easy splitting wood! even our easiest splitting wood has to be damn near crispy dry to split even somewhat close to that. for firewood i think i'll take 60cc with a 24" bar. as long as it's not a clamshell i'm happy.


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## weimedog (Mar 9, 2016)

555


svk said:


> I'd say over 90 percent of the wood I've cut in my lifetime was done with a 60 something cc saw.
> 
> 2165/365 are nice saws but it goes without saying that a 372 will do everything better.
> 
> ...





big hank said:


> What is the difference between the 555 and 562xp?



Price, and a little power.
Technically the following:

Plastic & air filter
Carb & Ignition The 555 doesn't have "rev boost" & the carb has a different tune.
Crank Shaft doesn't have "stuffers"
555 is lighter because it has a small mount bar vs. the larger "standard" Husqvarna mount the 562 has

The power difference isn't as much as you would think.


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## big hank (Mar 9, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Price, and a little power.
> Technically the following:
> 
> Plastic & air filter
> ...


Thanks. I really like your YouTube videos.


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## moondoggie (Mar 9, 2016)

These days I bring 3 saws with me but if it had to be only one. I would bring my 562 for sure, scrounging firewood, that is.


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## Agrarian (Mar 9, 2016)

Since the early 90's, a 262xp has cut all my wood. Just recently after contracting this CAD disease I started using a 242xp on the second growth smaller stuff.


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## drf255 (Mar 9, 2016)

Mildly ported 036. 

My one saw plan here. 

A ported 026 for limbing, maybe, or my lil echo 330 top handle.


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## Mattyo (Mar 9, 2016)

My ported 350 gets used 90% of the time. Its stupid cheap to fix if something goes wrong, parts are easy to get, and it cuts just silly fast.


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## procarbine2k1 (Mar 9, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Fence row clean out? I'm taking my MS241!



They are handy rascals.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 9, 2016)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I dont get the logic that X saw cuts a firewood log a second faster than Y saw..this stuff gets borderline ridiculous.
> 
> I agree , the saw is the EASY part..so i use the minimal approach on that task to save my energy for the HARD part....this stuff is funny


For cutting one's firewood in this region it simply doesn't require much of a saw. There are still a few larger trees, and I like having my 62cc saw around for pulling 24" & 25" bars when I need to - but that does not happen often. Other than that I'll go for the lightest saw that will do it, and in most cases that's a 40cc saw with a 16" or 18" bar. They use less fuel and take less energy from me, and the time lost in cutting by using a smaller saw varies from zero to irrelevant. I'm a minimalist and always will be.


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## wyk (Mar 9, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Fence row clean out? I'm taking my MS241!


I use my 241 to prune fence rows. I would kill one cleaning out a hedge here. Last time I was using my 281xp to clear out the black thorn and Hawthorne, I was wishing I had a ported 60cc saw instead.


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## Mike Gibson (Mar 9, 2016)

I'll use my Dolmar 7910. Same weight as a 6400 in a 79 cc saw and just about run any bar I want. I think this is the most over looked saw for a 1 saw plan.


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## bikemike (Mar 9, 2016)

Stihl oh34 av super. They been a long time runner and naturally a piss revin machine


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> I'll use my Dolmar 7910. Same weight as a 6400 in a 79 cc saw and just about run any bar I want. I think this is the most over looked saw for a 1 saw plan.


I look at that the other way around. The 6400 is a 64cc saw built on a 79cc platform.


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## Mike Gibson (Mar 9, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> I look at that the other way around. The 6400 is a 64cc saw built on a 79cc platform.



While I can't disagree with that, for 1lb more than a 362 you can have 1.1 more hp out of a 7910. Not to mention the torque and ability to run much longer bar lengths.


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## bikemike (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> While I can't disagree with that, for 1lb more than a 362 you can have 1.1 more hp out of a 7910. Not to mention the torque and ability to run much longer bar lengths.


More power yeahya


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> While I can't disagree with that, for 1lb more than a 362 you can have 1.1 more hp out of a 7910. Not to mention the torque and ability to run much longer bar lengths.


Another reason to use a hot 40cc or 50cc


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## Mike Gibson (Mar 9, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Another reason to use a hot 40cc or 50cc



Well apparently I missed the whole point of the original question. I thought the op asked which saw; but he asked which saws. Big difference. In that case, I will take my 7910 and my 5105 with a 16" bar and do anything I need to do!!!! And yes, to Brad's point, a hot 50cc saw is hard to beat. Can't wait till the day when I can have my 5105 ported!


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## bikemike (Mar 9, 2016)

I like small piss revin saws. Eventually il be working on my oh34 to pull a 24" with a skip chain through elms hard maple ash is no problem


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

A 600cc saw with a 20" bar will do 80% of my work.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Mar 9, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> For cutting one's firewood in this region it simply doesn't require much of a saw. There are still a few larger trees, and I like having my 62cc saw around for pulling 24" & 25" bars when I need to - but that does not happen often. Other than that I'll go for the lightest saw that will do it, and in most cases that's a 40cc saw with a 16" or 18" bar. They use less fuel and take less energy from me, and the time lost in cutting by using a smaller saw varies from zero to irrelevant. I'm a minimalist and always will be.



Absolutely , 99.9% of the time i go buck logs for firewood i take a 40 and 60cc saw.


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## weimedog (Mar 9, 2016)

Mattyo said:


> My ported 350 gets used 90% of the time. Its stupid cheap to fix if something goes wrong, parts are easy to get, and it cuts just silly fast.



Especially for "CAD" types, its tough to beat that 350 series of saw for both fun & work in my very humble opinion. So many options to build, and such a useful saw in so many of the various combinations. Think we want to do a "open" port vs the world video showing even the most basic form of that saw is really useful....AND can be tweaked of course ... It's a tough call between the 555 and the pile of 350's around this place... a 350 rides in two of the farm tractors. I would say in those environment where its going to be rough on the saw cosmetics....350's win.


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## weimedog (Mar 9, 2016)

Agrarian said:


> Since the early 90's, a 262xp has cut all my wood. Just recently after contracting this CAD disease I started using a 242xp on the second growth smaller stuff.



Your a fortunate person to have a good 242, they are amazing. Nothing on the market today can match that power out of a 42 cc saw. Not certain the power/weight has been matched either. Amazing saws then, and more so now ! That should be one of those "Holy Grail" saws for the orange collector...


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

CR888 said:


> Since Husky made a dedicated chassis for their 60cc 555/562xp, they put this class of saw back on the agenda for a pro cutters choice. A 60cc saw should not be lumped with an 80cc tank/frame/chassis ruining its power to wieght ratio often making it the worst option in its series. Others have followed like Dolmar not sharing its 6400/7300/7900 platform and making a dedicated 6100. That is the real game changer for 60cc saws, no longer are they a held back and are now allowed to shine in a new light.



There is nothing new with dedicated 60cc class chassis, there just have been some exceptions.


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

weimedog said:


> 555
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Other pro saws in that "family" are the 560xp and 2260, that have the power/performance of the 562xp, but without the weight and bulk penalty of it. 

The 560xp isn't sold in the US, but the prettier 2260 is.....


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> I'll use my Dolmar 7910. Same weight as a 6400 in a 79 cc saw and just about run any bar I want. I think this is the most over looked saw for a 1 saw plan.



It really is the other way around, the 6400 is a 64cc saw based on a 79cc one.


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> While I can't disagree with that, for 1lb more than a 362 you can have 1.1 more hp out of a 7910. Not to mention the torque and ability to run much longer bar lengths.



I have my doubts (to say the least) about that weight comparison.


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> *Well apparently I missed the whole point of the original question*. I thought the op asked which saw; but he asked which saws. Big difference. In that case, I will take my 7910 and my 5105 with a 16" bar and do anything I need to do!!!! And yes, to Brad's point, a hot 50cc saw is hard to beat. Can't wait till the day when I can have my 5105 ported!



I am sure the OP just meant to start a nice thread, he wasn't asking for advice.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Mar 9, 2016)

logeeland said:


> A 600cc saw with a 20" bar will do 80% of my work.



Thats a big saw


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Thats a big saw


60cc is a big saw? That is what he was asking about?


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## moondoggie (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> Well apparently I missed the whole point of the original question. I thought the op asked which saw; but he asked which saws. Big difference. In that case, I will take my 7910 and my 5105 with a 16" bar and do anything I need to do!!!! And yes, to Brad's point, a hot 50cc saw is hard to beat. Can't wait till the day when I can have my 5105 ported!


Hmmm I missed it too. In that case all the saw in my sig


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## bikemike (Mar 9, 2016)

I want a 60cc saw to. Mounted to a skid loader


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## Chris-PA (Mar 9, 2016)

logeeland said:


> 60cc is a big saw? That is what he was asking about?


Yes, but 600cc is a bit larger! 

It was a typo.


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## Mike Gibson (Mar 9, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> I am sure the OP just meant to start a nice thread, he wasn't asking for advice.



I wasn't giving advice, just saying that I thought the original question was based around only one saw but specifically said saws. I was pointing out my misinterpretation......


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## CoreyB (Mar 9, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> I am sure the OP just meant to start a nice thread, he wasn't asking for advice.


 I am sure the respondent was just kindly adding his opinion. Not trying to get some one to back handedly tell him you don't think his opinion is worth adding.
You didn't say a thing about any of the husky variants others have kindly added but someone says anything about a non husky and you start attacking.


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> I am sure the respondent was just kindly adding his opinion. Not trying to get some one to back handedly tell him you don't think his opinion is worth adding.
> You didn't say a thing about any of the husky variants others have kindly added but someone says anything about a non husky and you start attacking.



I wasn't attacking anyone, my point was that there wasn't a specific _original question_ to worry about.


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## wyk (Mar 9, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> While I can't disagree with that, for 1lb more than a 362 you can have 1.1 more hp out of a 7910. Not to mention the torque and ability to run much longer bar lengths.


The difference is more like two pounds. See the chainsaw weight thread.


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> Other pro saws in that "family" are the 560xp and 2260, that have the power/performance of the 562xp, but without the weight and bulk penalty of it.
> 
> The 560xp isn't sold in the US, but the prettier 2260 is.....


Come on Nikko. You've got to be kidding. Weight and bulk difference? They're the exact same size and what, maybe 1 oz heavier?


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

560XP: 12.6lbs
562XP: 13.01lbs


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2016)

logeeland said:


> 560XP: 12.6lbs
> 562XP: 13.01lbs


How is that possible? Aren't they identical other than bar mount? Has anyone actually weighed both?


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

Those are the specs from husqvarna.com


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

560xp, small bar mount and smaller air filter / lower cover. Bit lighter. Not available in the USA.

562xp, large bar mount and larger air filter / high top cover. Bit heavier.


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/562xp-vs-560-xp.195135/


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

logeeland said:


> 560xp, small bar mount and smaller air filter / lower cover. Bit lighter. Not available in the USA.
> 
> 562xp, large bar mount and larger air filter / high top cover. Bit heavier.




When we are into splitting hairs, the 562 allegedly is a tad wider as well - it has a longer crank on the clutch side.

Don't ask me why it is that way!


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## Philip Wheelock (Mar 9, 2016)

weimedog said:


> When you have a few saws to choose from, and your going to have a day of firewood hunting or general farm cleanup...what saws do YOU put in the truck??...


If I'm spending the day doing what I see in the video (thanks very much BTW), I'd take the ms261 and ms260 with a few extra chains. The Husky 555 might get my vote for best all-purpose saw, though. Right now I'm thinning and getting rid of some big pine & oak that are sick from carpenter ants or not having enough space & light, so the ms460 is getting the most work. I like the comments about saws that most folks use to do real work.


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## logeeland (Mar 9, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> When we are into splitting hairs, the 562 allegedly is a tad wider as well - it has a longer crank on the clutch side.
> 
> Don't ask me why it is that way!


Size matters and longer is better!


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## can (Mar 9, 2016)

http://www.husqvarna.com/no/products/professional-chainsaws/562-xp-g/#specifications

http://www.husqvarna.com/no/products/professional-chainsaws/560-xp-g/#specifications

http://www.husqvarna.com/no/products/professional-chainsaws/560-xp/#specifications

6,1 kg, 5,9 kg and 5,7 kg but have not weight them myself.


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2016)

logeeland said:


> 560XP: 12.6lbs
> 562XP: 13.01lbs



That's one variant of the specs - but those numbers are higher than the real world weighting results I have seem - pointing more at 12.4 and 12.8.

I don't care enough to weight my own though....


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## CR888 (Mar 9, 2016)

The other advantage of small bar mount is the choice of small mount bars that are much lighter giving you an even better wieght advantage when measured with B/C as you would use it. My 555 is pretty nimble and light with a 15" small mount bar. Though many folks run 24" bars on their 562's in the US, each to their own.


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## weimedog (Mar 9, 2016)

Think next video or so going to build a 555 - 562 blend. New set of 555 cases and start from there up ...


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## Shagbark (Mar 9, 2016)

If I can't bring all 3 of my saws the 60cc ms361 is the go to saw for general use.


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Think next video or so going to build a 555 - 562 blend. New set of 555 cases and start from there up ...


I believe there are issues fitting a 562 stuffed crank into a 555 case. IIRC, it's a little wider.


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## Farmertim (Mar 9, 2016)

Cool thread - thanks for sharing the video. Thats it in a nutshell - most of the work we do around here. We fell some in the woods and cut a lot of cedar posts etc. but this is the jist. My first good saw was a 357xp - an excellent saw; however, influences from this site soon had me selling it and buying a 346 & 372 combo. Can't say I'm not happy I did, but more to the point, both saws are stock and are fantastic tools to use. Maybe the best investment I have made - they get used a lot and save/ make us a lot of money. No real desire here to hop them up, maybe someday a muffler mod, but run great as is. With the amount of stuff we do: fencerow cleaning to larger felling I can't think of a better combo. The 372 came in handy to drop a 36" leaning willow on the weekend! But... if I didn't have the money at the time I am sure my 357 would have served me well! Thanks again for sharing.


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## CoreyB (Mar 9, 2016)

Every time I consider getting a larger saw I just run my 6100 and all is well.
I took mine out this afternoon to noodle a ton of big rounds to make them easier to handle and split. I also added a tach as a tuning aid.
And if you watch close you can see a 6100 noodling a 22" round and never dropping below 10,100 . Ya 60cc saws rock. Or at least mine does.


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## weimedog (Mar 10, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> I believe there are issues fitting a 562 stuffed crank into a 555 case. IIRC, it's a little wider.


Something I plan to find out, 2260 is essentially that. Question is whether the crank bearing to bearing distance is different on a non stuffed vs, stuffed 562 or are the cases different. The 562 stuffers take space..... I'm betting the 555 crank is wider by the thickness of the two stuffers sheet metal. Hoping.


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## blsnelling (Mar 10, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Something I plan to find out, 2260 is essentially that. Question is whether the crank bearing to bearing distance is different on a non stuffed vs, stuffed 562 or are the cases different. The 562 stuffers take space..... I'm betting the 555 crank is wider by the thickness of the two stuffers sheet metal. Hoping.


I suspect you're right. An all orange 562 would be nice.


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## rburg (Mar 10, 2016)

I think there is a thread or at least a video of mweba1 converting a 555 to a 560 basically.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 10, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Something I plan to find out, 2260 is essentially that. Question is whether the crank bearing to bearing distance is different on a non stuffed vs, stuffed 562 or are the cases different. The 562 stuffers take space..... I'm betting the 555 crank is wider by the thickness of the two stuffers sheet metal. Hoping.


It would be interesting if they had to increase the case volume in order to add the stuffers!


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## SawTroll (Mar 10, 2016)

CR888 said:


> The other advantage of small bar mount is the choice of small mount bars that are much lighter giving you an even better wieght advantage when measured with B/C as you would use it. My 555 is pretty nimble and light with a 15" small mount bar. Though many folks run 24" bars on their 562's in the US, each to their own.



Yes, and that is important to many users.


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## SawTroll (Mar 10, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Think next video or so going to build a 555 - 562 blend. New set of 555 cases and start from there up ...



Didn't mweba do this once, and post his findings on a saw forum?


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## logeeland (Mar 10, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Think next video or so going to build a 555 - 562 blend. New set of 555 cases and start from there up ...


Why not just buy a 562? Starting with a 555 case and adding the 562 top end and carb?


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## 7sleeper (Mar 10, 2016)

Why not just through away money for senseless ideas....

7


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## SawTroll (Mar 10, 2016)

logeeland said:


> Why not just buy a 562? Starting with a 555 case and adding the 562 top end and carb?



I assume he is thinking of making a 560xp, not a 562xp?


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## SawTroll (Mar 10, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Why not just through away money for senseless ideas....
> 
> 7




Having some fun?


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## SawTroll (Mar 10, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Something I plan to find out, 2260 is essentially that. Question is whether the crank bearing to bearing distance is different on a non stuffed vs, stuffed 562 or are the cases different. The 562 stuffers take space..... I'm betting the 555 crank is wider by the thickness of the two stuffers sheet metal. Hoping.



The crank case assy is the same between the 2260 (with stuffers) and the 2258 (without stuffers).


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## weimedog (Mar 10, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Why not just through away money for senseless ideas....
> 
> 7



Taking junkers and having fun bringing them back to useful saws?


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## Mattyo (Mar 10, 2016)

I've thrown a lot of money at junk saws, and brought them all back to life. Ultimately worth it? maybe not. But, I don't have to go down the street to rely on a saw mechanic anymore. Plus, even "senseless" adventures are being catalogued here on the net/youtube and can give others direction. In the end, not senseless at all.


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## Franny K (Mar 10, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> It would be interesting if they had to increase the case volume in order to add the stuffers!


I remember the disassembled pictures of the Husqvarna new top handle t540 had a lot of space around a crank with stuffers. It sure looked to me some of that was used for flow path for fuel mixture to get out of the crank cavity.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 10, 2016)

Franny K said:


> I remember the disassembled pictures of the Husqvarna new top handle t540 had a lot of space around a crank with stuffers. It sure looked to me some of that was used for flow path for fuel mixture to get out of the crank cavity.


If you fill in the part of the part of the counterweight that isn't a complete disk you can take a lot of volume out of the case. You'd need to be careful you didn't add it back in by adding clearance between the counterweight and the case side - it wouldn't take much to cancel out any gains.

I suspect this is why transfer entrances are now centered with the rod slot, as it makes it easier for the air to access it in a tight case.


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## dl5205 (Mar 11, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> Didn't mweba do this once, and post his findings on a saw forum?



Yes. Link below.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/building-a-560xp.219067/


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## Andyshine77 (Mar 11, 2016)

Walt this is a great thread IMHO.

This passed week I was running my Dolmar 421, and it made me start thinking about how much can really be done with a smaller saw, and how out of reality many here are. It really comes down to what the individual not only needs, based on wheat he's cutting, but also what he/she can handle. Lets me be curt. Most people that frequent this forum are not living in reality when it comes to what most need, and are willing to spend on a chainsaw, and how little most care about saws. With a good chain a 40cc/50cc can cut more wood than most here would acknowledged, and that's exactly what most do. Sure if you're in the know, a good 60cc saw is probably the logical choice for general work. However it's hard for most to get their head around spending more than $200 on a saw, let alone $500 or more.

So yes 60cc is a sweet spot for sure, but it's still out of most peoples price range, even the reasonably priced 555 IMHO. To me that's where small yet capable saws like the 421 comes into play.


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## Justsaws (Mar 11, 2016)

All the old stand byes are in the 54-64cc range so 60cc must be the sweet spot.

Scientific cc breakdown-

22-38 wee ones
39-53 weirdos
54-65 sweet spot
66-75 more weirdos
76-84 slightly bigger weirdos
85-97 yeah, uh huh
98+ F!!! Yeah, uh huh
138+ Hey hold the other end up, yeah by that little handle! No, you'll be fine. Maybe don't stand like that,... Off to the side. Never mind, the chain does not go that fast anyway. Noth'n, you'll be fine.


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## longbowch (Mar 11, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Walt this is a great thread IMHO.
> 
> This passed week I was running my Dolmare 421, and it made me start thinking about how much can really be done with a smaller saw, and how out of reality many here are. It really comes down to what the individual not only needs, based on wheat he's cutting, but also what he/she can handle. Lets me be curt. Most people that frequent this forum are not living in reality when it comes to what most need, and are willing to spend on a chainsaw, and how little most care about saws. With a good chain a 40cc/50cc can cut more wood than most here would acknowledged, and that's exactly what most do. Sure if you're in the know, a good 60cc saw is probably the logical choice for general work. However it's hard for most to get their head around spending more than $200 on a saw, let alone $500 or more.
> 
> So yes 60cc is a sweet spot for sure, but it's still out of most peoples price range, even the reasonably priced 555 IMHO. To me that's where small yet capable saws like the 421 comes into play.


Most people around here that I know that have a " big saw", think the farm boss is the greatest saw ever made.


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## SawTroll (Mar 11, 2016)

Franny K said:


> I remember the disassembled pictures of the Husqvarna new top handle t540 had a lot of space around a crank with stuffers. It sure looked to me some of that was used for flow path for fuel mixture to get out of the crank cavity.



As far as I know, it mainly is about reducing the space in the crank area, upping the crank-case compression.


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## SawTroll (Mar 11, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Walt this is a great thread IMHO.
> 
> This passed week I was running my Dolmare 421, and it made me start thinking about how much can really be done with a smaller saw, and how out of reality many here are. It really comes down to what the individual not only needs, based on wheat he's cutting, but also what he/she can handle. Lets me be curt. Most people that frequent this forum are not living in reality when it comes to what most need, and are willing to spend on a chainsaw, and how little most care about saws. With a good chain a 40cc/50cc can cut more wood than most here would acknowledged, and that's exactly what most do. Sure if you're in the know, a good 60cc saw is probably the logical choice for general work. However it's hard for most to get their head around spending more than $200 on a saw, let alone $500 or more.
> 
> So yes 60cc is a sweet spot for sure, but it's still out of most peoples price range, even the reasonably priced 555 IMHO. To me that's where small yet capable saws like the 421 comes into play.



Surely, but "which saw" threads on saw forums tends to be about the "best" in some way - and then such thinking becomes irrelevant....


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## benp (Mar 11, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Walt this is a great thread IMHO.
> 
> *This passed week I was running my Dolmare 421, and it made me start thinking about how much can really be done with a smaller saw, and how out of reality many here are.* It really comes down to what the individual not only needs, based on wheat he's cutting, but also what he/she can handle. Lets me be curt. Most people that frequent this forum are not living in reality when it comes to what most need, and are willing to spend on a chainsaw, and how little most care about saws. *With a good chain a 40cc/50cc can cut more wood than most here would acknowledge*d, and that's exactly what most do. Sure if you're in the know, a good 60cc saw is probably the logical choice for general work. However it's hard for most to get their head around spending more than $200 on a saw, let alone $500 or more.
> 
> So yes 60cc is a sweet spot for sure, but it's still out of most peoples price range, even the reasonably priced 555 IMHO. To me that's where small yet capable saws like the 421 comes into play.



I completely agree!!

Aaaaand to back up your point, this is from the neighbor's winter jeep ride last Saturday.

This nice sized Spruce was across the trail. My buddy had along an old Mac top handle and that little rascal did AWESOME. We had the trail cleared and open in less that 20 minutes.





I am seriously wanting a Dolmar 421 and that's what I was actually hunting for when I got my 510.


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## CR888 (Mar 11, 2016)

I got my Contra lightning running today, its 106cc's and near 60year old. Rebuild the Tilly HL, found some fuel line as thick as my finger, put a new spark pug boot and removed a few pound of oily pitch (old saw protective coating). Fired her up with some carb cleaner and got the big ol girl thumping. At this particular moment I really did not care for the latest 60cc saw made from plastic, the hard nose 25" solid bar and loop of 1/2inch may way more than a 562 but that did not matter one bit. Throttle reponse was awesome after a little tuning, my contra I brought home from the rubbish tip is my new favourite saw.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 11, 2016)

When I was a kid we had one saw for cleaning up the inevitable deadfall and firewood - it was a Craftsman-branded 60cc Roper with an 18" bar. And I have to say that it was the idea all-around saw, and I think 18" is the best length bar for such general purpose use. 

These days though, with a narrower kerf chain and higher rpm I think 40 to 45cc or so is about equivalent. 

I really like lo pro chain for the narrow kerf, and it takes a lot less power/displacement to run it. I suspect that one of the reasons some are using larger displacement saws is that they only run full 3/8, and so have a different idea of how big a saw is needed for a given bar length.


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## SawTroll (Mar 11, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> ....
> 
> I really like lo pro chain for the narrow kerf, and it takes a lot less power/displacement to run it. I suspect that one of the reasons some are using larger displacement saws is that they only run full 3/8, and so have a different idea of how big a saw is needed for a given bar length.



There is some truth in that, but a too narrow kerf is a disadvantage in many situations, including felling.

Ideally it isn't really a matter of one or the other, but both.


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## Franny K (Mar 11, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> As far as I know, it mainly is about reducing the space in the crank area, upping the crank-case compression.


Yes mainly that is it. I have seen in other two cycle stuff the crank gets stuffed but then the carburetor and reed cage gets pushed farther away. I suspect if the crankcase volume is the same for 560/562/555 something has been either optimized for one or there is a compromise.

What is best for me, someone who cuts everything small to about 12 feet long and makes brush piles as opposed to those who just leave in place smaller than is of value to them. That video talks of making the field suitable for the haybine but then when they finally go and cut it appears they are working in an area the haybine goes around and are harvesting firewood for use at the coffee pot spot.


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## SawTroll (Mar 11, 2016)

Franny K said:


> Yes mainly that is it. I have seen in other two cycle stuff the crank gets stuffed but then the carburetor and reed cage gets pushed farther away. I suspect if the crankcase volume is the same for 560/562/555 *something has been either optimized for one or there is a compromise*.



I assume it is optimized for the 560/2260/562 - and as the case assy is the same for the 2258 and 2260, I assume it is for the 555 and 560 as well (minus color).


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## J.Walker (Mar 11, 2016)

For a all around 60cc saw I would use the Husky 562xp or my 359 saw.


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## Chris-PA (Mar 11, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> There is some truth in that, but a too narrow kerf is a disadvantage in many situations, including felling.


I don't really fell much, usually damaged or dead stuff around my property for firewood - nevertheless I don't see the disadvantage of a narrower kerf bar for felling, and often fell with 3/8 lo pro. I'm missing how it would be a problem in concept - maybe if the bar is too flexible? Otherwise, a narrower kerf chain produces less material to remove from the cut, and as far as pinching the gap between bar and chain is not all that much different - there's very little angle that the tree can rock back without pinching with any B&C.

Dropped and bucked a couple of dead 15" maples this weekend with my latest ported plastic 42cc Poulan using 3/8 lo pro. Zipped right through quick as can be, no fuss at all. That's most of what I use a saw for.


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## SawTroll (Mar 11, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> I don't really fell much, usually damaged or dead stuff around my property for firewood - nevertheless I don't see the disadvantage of a narrower kerf bar for felling, and often fell with 3/8 lo pro. I'm missing how it would be a problem in concept - maybe if the bar is too flexible? Otherwise, a narrower kerf chain produces less material to remove from the cut, and as far as pinching the gap between bar and chain is not all that much different - there's very little angle that the tree can rock back without pinching with any B&C.
> 
> Dropped and bucked a couple of dead 15" maples this weekend with my latest ported plastic 42cc Poulan using 3/8 lo pro. Zipped right through quick as can be, no fuss at all. That's most of what I use a saw for.



It isn't much of an issue if you can fell the tree in the natural direction of fall - but it is as soon as you need wedges etc. to make it fall in the desired direction.


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## blsnelling (Mar 11, 2016)

The older I get, the smaller my favorite saw gets


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## RIDE-RED 350r (Mar 11, 2016)

When I set out to buy a new saw for my then 1 saw plan, I chose the 357xp. I have never regretted that decision not once. I use the 357 very frequently, probably the most frequently of the saws I own that are currently running. 

I have since added a few more, both larger and smaller, but dang if my modded 357 isn't a jack of just about all trades. 

IMHO a good 60cc is a very useful saw, particularly for the guy just starting out who can only swing the cost of buying one saw at a time.


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## nitehawk55 (Mar 21, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> The older I get, the smaller my favorite saw gets



Heading in that direction too . 
The younger fellows can do the huge stuff , I'll buck the nice to handle sizes 
I traded that 390 in my avatar back into the dealer , 562 on the way .
Biggest I have now is a 576 , all I'll rarely need but there if I do .


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## BenK (Mar 22, 2016)

Ran my 555 all day on Friday and it was awesome. 60cc is a great class for general use. Chewed through 25" oak, nimble enough to move around in the woods with (even when full off fluids), and really seemed to run stonger as the day went on. I could have done the same work with my old 40cc husky but I wouldn't have had a smile on my face like I did with the 555 buried in some of the bigger stuff.


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## motorman1 (Mar 22, 2016)

I'll stick to the lightest/cheapest saw possible to get the job done then. For me it's the Stihl MS390. At 64cc's and 13 lbs, it gets the job done cheapest,period. Flame away, but at having run several over many years, you're wasting your time. Quality speaks volumes.


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## Chris J. (Mar 22, 2016)

Mike Gibson said:


> I'll use my Dolmar 7910. Same weight as a 6400 in a 79 cc saw and just about run any bar I want. I think this is the most over looked saw for a 1 saw plan.



I have the Makita 6421, not (yet) converted to 79cc. It's definitely a solid pro saw.

As a 79cc saw the power-to-weight ratio is great.

As a 64cc saw the power-to-weight ratio isn't so good. If someone pretty much only needs a 60cc class saw, there are lighter choices that will do the same work. OTOH a young and/or strong guy might consider the build quality worth the extra weight.


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## weimedog (Mar 22, 2016)

And Sunday out of a few older saws....picked a 257. Still in that class.


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## sunfish (Mar 22, 2016)

motorman1 said:


> I'll stick to the lightest/cheapest saw possible to get the job done then. For me it's the Stihl MS390. At 64cc's and 13 lbs, it gets the job done cheapest,period. Flame away, but at having run several over many years, you're wasting your time. Quality speaks volumes.


If cheapest is what you're into, that's cool!


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## stihlaficionado (Mar 22, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> The older I get, the smaller my favorite saw gets


Husky 235?


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## Termite (Mar 22, 2016)

Just for information, the oil pump gears is different between a 2260 and 562.


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## stihlaficionado (Mar 22, 2016)

Termite said:


> Just for information, the oil pump gears is different between a 2260 and 562.


How are they "different"?


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## Termite (Mar 22, 2016)

If I recall correctly, one gear is thicker than the other. I was trying to do a swap to get my logger buddies 562 up and running quickly. I loaned him my 2260 and he dropped a log on it. So he bought me a new tank assemble and all is good.


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## stihlaficionado (Mar 22, 2016)

Termite said:


> If I recall correctly, one gear is thicker than the other. I was trying to do a swap to get my logger buddies 562 up and running quickly. I loaned him my 2260 and he dropped a log on it. So he bought me a new tank assemble and all is good.


Are the gears plastic?


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## wde_1978 (Mar 22, 2016)

Chris J. said:


> I have the Makita 6421, not (yet) converted to 79cc. It's definitely a solid pro saw.
> 
> As a 79cc saw the power-to-weight ratio is great.
> 
> As a 64cc saw the power-to-weight ratio isn't so good. If someone pretty much only needs a 60cc class saw, there are lighter choices that will do the same work. OTOH a young and/or strong guy might consider the build quality worth the extra weight.


I prefer my PS-6400 over my PS-7900 most of the times, my PS-6400 is also my main go-to-saw for a decade now.

With both wearing a 20" 3/8" B&C setup and identical chains, the PS-7900's higher power goes mostly unused - that been said the PS-6400 handles a 20" setup extremely well.
I like using my PS-7900 just for the fun of it.

I don't find the PS-6400/7900 saws to be heavy, though I process cast iron on a daily basis thus I consider 13-15lbs as kids play!

P.S.:
I own a spare OEM PS-7900 P&C kit, but I have no intentions to turn my PS-6400 into a PS-7900 - I love her the way she is!


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## Chris J. (Mar 22, 2016)

wde_1978 said:


> I prefer my PS-6400 over my PS-7900 most of the times, my PS-6400 is also my main go-to-saw for a decade now.
> 
> With both wearing a 20" 3/8" B&C setup and identical chains, the PS-7900's higher power goes mostly unused - that been said the PS-6400 handles a 20" setup extremely well.
> I like using my PS-7900 just for the fun of it.
> ...


 
The 6400/6421 is a solid pro saw, no doubt. I would never tell someone not to consider one.

But if weight were a major consideration in their purchase decision, there are other pro-grade 60cc class saws that will do the same work and be less tiring. 

Cutting conditions are a factor. I can grab the 6421 and walk across the street to help my neighbor by making a few cuts because he doesn't own a large enough saw, no problem. I'd need to be in much better shape (and younger wouldn't hurt ) to carry the 6421 deep into the woods and cut with it all day, then carry it back out.


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## CascadeHusky (Mar 22, 2016)

"Best General Purpose"

This phrase isn't quite an oxymoron, but it just about is.

Are 60cc saws best for milling? No.
Are they best for ladder or tree work? No.
Are they best for bucking over 16"? No.

Can they do all the things mentioned, and do them well? Yes.

For almost any task, there is a better saw. 

Bucking 8-14" softwood? Perhaps the best tool available. Add a hike of a few miles and maybe the range changes to 10-18" or more. (Hopefully you all can understand why.)

Driving around all day, with a 0% chance of cutting something over 30", and cutting up camp firewood after clearing the road of a few logs? 60cc may just be the indisputable king.


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## logeeland (Mar 22, 2016)

Other then the 16" bucking you are dead on. I find that even 25" logs with a 20" bar they do great.


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## sunfish (Mar 22, 2016)

CascadeHusky said:


> "Best General Purpose"
> 
> This phrase isn't quite an oxymoron, but it just about is.
> 
> ...


Different strokes fer different folks.

Around here a 60cc saw is the best saw for logging and firewood.


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## CascadeHusky (Mar 22, 2016)

sunfish said:


> Different strokes fer different folks.
> 
> Around here a 60cc saw is the best saw for logging and firewood.



Fair enough. Around here it seems the loggers have seen 70cc and 32" as the minimum for years.

It does seem that in a softwood second growth industry (almost all of Oregon logging) there would be guys jumping to the 562. Maybe they are.


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## logeeland (Mar 22, 2016)

Here in Maine I know quite a few that run the 562XP's with 25" bars and that is all they need. Most second growth here is not much bigger then 28"


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## Franny K (Mar 22, 2016)

Chris J. said:


> The 6400/6421 is a solid pro saw, no doubt.



What does solid pro saw mean. It has an open port cylinder and I have read on here of problems with vibration levels with some European governance. It is 2016. Even the 6100 is over the limit for 60cc.


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## CoreyB (Mar 22, 2016)

How is a 6100 over "the limit "


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## wde_1978 (Mar 22, 2016)

Chris J. said:


> ... I'd need to be in much better shape (and younger wouldn't hurt ) to carry the 6421 deep into the woods and cut with it all day, then carry it back out.


I use my PS-6400 for bush clearing rather then my 40cc!
I can't justify it other then the fact that she's just faster at it, the moment the 3/8" chisel chain touches the hazel or hornbeam it's already through it.
The additional reach of the bar also helps keeping safer distance from wild rose and accacia thorns.
As said, the PS-6400 is my undisputable go-to-saw! 



CoreyB said:


> How is a 6100 over "the limit "


I had the same thought! 
I got the impression that the PS-6100 is spot on what users wish the PS-6400 to be.
I saw a Makita version of the PS-6100 at a local shop and I was surprised how much more compact it is compared to the PS-6400!


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## Franny K (Mar 22, 2016)

It is 61cc Like a 250 motorcycle is 249cc. Perhaps I could have different wording.


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## CoreyB (Mar 22, 2016)

O


Franny K said:


> It is 61cc Like a 250 motorcycle is 249cc. Perhaps I could have different wording.


Oh I guess I didn't know there where that strict of registrations.


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## albert (Mar 23, 2016)

sunfish said:


> If cheapest is what you're into, that's cool!



Not a bad saw, put a 25" bar or one it might surprise you, even stock. Open the muffler alittle and it even gets better. I know 3 or 4 guys that run the snot out of them with little to no maintenance for years and they just keep going.


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## Chris J. (Mar 23, 2016)

wde_1978 said:


> I use my PS-6400 for bush clearing rather then my 40cc!
> I can't justify it other then the fact that she's just faster at it, the moment the 3/8" chisel chain touches the hazel or hornbeam it's already through it.
> The additional reach of the bar also helps keeping safer distance from wild rose and accacia thorns.
> As said, the PS-6400 is my undisputable go-to-saw!
> ...



You're obviously in the physical condition where the weight of the 6400 doesn't bother you.

The 6100, as I understand it, is built on it's own platform, it was designed & built as a 60cc class saw.

The "older" 6400 is built on the same platform as the 7900, meaning it is built hefty enough (size & weight) to support the larger engine, but comes with the smaller engine. Which is why many consider it too heavy as a 60cc class saw, but fine as a 80cc class saw.


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## weimedog (Mar 23, 2016)

So... Not a Stihl guy but would be curious to know Stihls model history that best matched up with the following saws when they were sold:
Looking for similar rated weight & power & Clam shell vs. Metal "split" case design. Price possibly relative to the current models like the 460 and 555. I simply don't know the Stihl history and would like to fill in that gap. Guess these would be the "average" 60cc class Stihls over the ages!
Jonsered 621
Husqvarna 61
Husqvarna 257
Husqvarna 359
Husqvarna 460 - Stihl ms270?? or ms 391?
Husqvarna 555

Will give me a direction to hunt down those saws for future projects. More interested in the years prior to the 2010.


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## rburg (Mar 23, 2016)

Stihl 034s, 036, 360, 361 in the mag case. 039, 310, 390 in the clamshell.


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## Armstrong (Apr 23, 2016)

Has anybody run the jonsered 2260 and the dolmar 6100? I'm curious which is the better performer. Pretty sure the 2260 is pricier. I currently use the 2152 and 2071(BB kit, 8 tooth) and am looking for something in between.


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## Sawyer Rob (Apr 23, 2016)

Never owned or even ran the Dolmar, but everyone that runs my 2260 LOVES it!







SR


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## sunfish (Apr 23, 2016)

Armstrong said:


> Has anybody run the jonsered 2260 and the dolmar 6100? I'm curious which is the better performer. Pretty sure the 2260 is pricier. I currently use the 2152 and 2071(BB kit, 8 tooth) and am looking for something in between.


The 2260 will be a bit smaller/lighter & have more zip. But both very good saws!


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## rwoods (Apr 23, 2016)

Of course I can't prove it, but I would put my money that mid 50cc to mid 60cc saws have cut more firewood than all the rest combined. And that within this group the McCulloch ten series and the Homelite XL 12s still lead the pack on amount of wood cut during the period beginning with their introduction until now.

If I was limited to just one saw it would be in the 60cc range. I am not, but I find myself reaching for a 60cc despite my faster and more powerful saws.

Ron

PS edit: XL12 was too specific. I was referring to Homelite's entire line of 58cc saws.


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## CoreyB (Apr 23, 2016)

rwoods said:


> Of course I can't prove it, but I would put my money that mid 50cc to mid 60cc saws have cut more firewood than all the rest combined. And that within this group the McCulloch ten series and the Homelite XL 12s still lead the pack on amount of wood cut during the period beginning with their introduction until now.
> 
> If I was limited to just one saw it would be in the 60cc range. I am not, but I find myself reaching for a 60cc despite my faster and more powerful saws.
> 
> ...



The majority of wood I have cut in my 25 years of firewood collection has been with a 50-61cc saws


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## weimedog (Apr 27, 2016)

Any video's of a Dolmar 6100?? And now the Husqvarna 465 creeps into the picture as well....


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## CoreyB (Apr 27, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Any video's of a Dolmar 6100?? And now the Husqvarna 465 creeps into the picture as well....


I have some videos of my 6100 on my YouTube channel.


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## Scablands (Apr 28, 2016)

I must be a weirdo. I've been shopping for a smaller saw as a backup for my MS461. After looking at the weights and weight to power ratio of 60cc saws, I'm just going to buy a second 461 and a 20" lightweight bar for small firewood whacking duty. Aside from price, I don't see the appeal of a 60cc saw. Maybe I haven't packed my 461 up enough hills yet to be smart. The only appreciable weight benefit I see to going smaller appears in the 40cc class saws where you're in to a 10lb powerhead versus 14-15.

I will now yield the soapbox to find out why I am so wrong...


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## weimedog (Apr 28, 2016)

The entire saw perspective changes with age.


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## Chris J. (Apr 28, 2016)

Scablands said:


> I must be a weirdo. I've been shopping for a smaller saw as a backup for my MS461. After looking at the weights and weight to power ratio of 60cc saws, I'm just going to buy a second 461 and a 20" lightweight bar for small firewood whacking duty. Aside from price, I don't see the appeal of a 60cc saw. Maybe I haven't packed my 461 up enough hills yet to be smart. The only appreciable weight benefit I see to going smaller appears in the 40cc class saws where you're in to a 10lb powerhead versus 14-15.
> 
> I will now yield the soapbox to find out why I am so wrong...



In your case, namely having 76cc saw, a 60cc class saw probably doesn't make much sense. You've got the large wood covered, so for your "for small firewood whacking duty" a 50cc class saw would probably be a good choice, or a 40cc class saw like you mentioned if the wood is small enough.

Some folks view a 60cc class saw as a good compromise, esp if they don't have a stable of saws. A good example would be someone on a budget who can't afford a two saw plan, and cuts a mix of large & small wood. Some manufacturers are making 60cc class saws where the weight is in line with the power.


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## Termite (Apr 28, 2016)

Chris J. said:


> In your case, namely having 76cc saw, a 60cc class saw probably doesn't make much sense. You've got the large wood covered, so for your "for small firewood whacking duty" a 50cc class saw would probably be a good choice, or a 40cc class saw like you mentioned if the wood is small enough.


To me my 40cc saw is more useful than my 50cc saw, especially sense I started using Stihl low pro chisel chain.
The thing is to get a 9.5#, 40cc saw and not an 11#, 40cc saw.


----------



## Scablands (Apr 28, 2016)

weimedog said:


> The entire saw perspective changes with age.


Agreed. And it varies with what you have and works for you. Until the 461, I was perfectly happy with a 55 cc Sachs Dolmar. I couldn't imagine anything better.


----------



## svk (Apr 28, 2016)

Termite said:


> The thing is to get a 9.5#, 40cc saw and not an 11#, 40cc saw.


No doubt! There are a lot of 40-45CC pigs out there. That is one reason why I really like the 450 Husky for a HO saw because it is the same weight and way more power than most 40-45's


----------



## svk (Apr 28, 2016)

Scablands said:


> I must be a weirdo. I've been shopping for a smaller saw as a backup for my MS461. After looking at the weights and weight to power ratio of 60cc saws, I'm just going to buy a second 461 and a 20" lightweight bar for small firewood whacking duty. Aside from price, I don't see the appeal of a 60cc saw. Maybe I haven't packed my 461 up enough hills yet to be smart. The only appreciable weight benefit I see to going smaller appears in the 40cc class saws where you're in to a 10lb powerhead versus 14-15.
> 
> I will now yield the soapbox to find out why I am so wrong...


JMO but If I only had a 461 I would probably complement it with a 550xp for lighter duties.


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## sunfish (Apr 28, 2016)

I prefer a hot rod 50cc most of the time. Or a 57cc or a 60cc.


----------



## weimedog (Apr 28, 2016)

upped ands said:


> Agreed. And it varies with what you have and works for you. Until the 461, I was perfectly happy with a 55 cc Sachs Dolmar. I couldn't imagine anything better.



Until a hopped 562 was finished and debugged I couldn't imagine life with out 372's and ms660's...


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 28, 2016)

stihlaficionado said:


> How are they "different"?



It may be because the 2260 comes with a small spline drum, and the 562 with a standard spline one? At least it is that way over here.

As I recall it, one part in the oiler is different as well, likely because the 562 needs a higher output, as it is "rated" for longer bars.


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## SawTroll (Apr 28, 2016)

CascadeHusky said:


> "Best General Purpose"
> 
> This phrase isn't quite an oxymoron, but it just about is.
> 
> ...



Of course, there will be regardless which size you compare to "everything else"!


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 28, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> How is a 6100 over "the limit "



It isn't in general saw talk (like this is), 60cc basically covers 57.5cc to 62.4cc in my book, and some surely will say 55.0 to 64.9cc....

If it was about racing classes, the story would be different though....


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 28, 2016)

wde_1978 said:


> ....
> I saw a Makita version of the PS-6100 at a local shop and I was surprised how much more compact it is compared to the PS-6400!



That isn't because the 6100 is particularly compact, but because the 6400 really is a 79cc saw with a 64cc engine.


----------



## wde_1978 (Apr 28, 2016)

I agree with @SawTroll , chainsaws aren't cars or motorcycles which are regulated by the government wanting taxes!

I see chainsaw cc classes as half up half down, or as @SawTroll suggested...


SawTroll said:


> ..., and some surely will say 55.0 to 64.9cc...


... for a 60cc class saw.



SawTroll said:


> That isn't because the 6100 is particularly compact, but because the 6400 really is a 79cc saw with a 64cc engine.


I realize that, but with my limited chainsaw knowledge and experience I was fairly surprised how much "smaller" the PS-6100 looked and felt compared to my Dolmar PS-6400 to which I got used to throughout the last decade.


----------



## Termite (Apr 28, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> It may be because the 2260 comes with a small spline drum, and the 562 with a standard spline one? At least it is that way over here.
> 
> As I recall it, one part in the oiler is different as well, likely because the 562 needs a higher output, as it is "rated" for longer bars.


My 2260 came with a standard spline drum and my 2253 came with a small. They will interchange.


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## Michigan Escapee (Apr 28, 2016)

I think the big problem is indecision. Now, I'm not sure which I should buy in the 60cc class. A dolmar or makita, the 61cc or the 64cc. 
Any of them would both be overkill, and underkill for practical purposes.

In terms of ***** and giggles, probably a 61cc would be more practical, more fuel efficient, and lighter weight. And it'd blast wood chips all over the place pretty good too.  

For something of actual regular use, I'd need something REALLY hard to find, like a 15-20 foot gasoline powered pole saw. Probably would cost $900 or something crazy for that extra little bit of reach.


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 28, 2016)

Termite said:


> My 2260 came with a standard spline drum and my 2253 came with a small. They will interchange.



OK, when you say it, I recall I have heard that before. 

Then I also recall that the part number for the gear is different for the 562 than for the 560, and assume it either is because of the longer crank (that I don't understand why is longer) of the 562, or because the oiler is slightly different (or both)...


----------



## Andyshine77 (Apr 28, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Any video's of a Dolmar 6100?? And now the Husqvarna 465 creeps into the picture as well....


 IMHO, I would honestly say the 465 doesn't come into the picture for anyone who does their homework. Will the 465 make a good firewood saw? no doubt! The problem is the fact for less money, you can pick up a saw like the cs-590, which is likely one reason the 465 even exists. 

The 465 was a good call on Husqvarna part, in moving to a more advanced top of the line homeowner saw. However as of now, Echo saws are simply less complex and have superior overall quality, when compared to anything Husqvarna or Stihl has in this category. The question with the likes of Echo, is how long can they get away with not moving on to strato engine designs? 

Stihl isn't making the best choices at the moment with opening all the new hardware store type dealers and at the same time roiling over established professional dealers. Will they gain some sales? Sure, but at what cost?


----------



## svk (Apr 28, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> IMHO, I would honestly say the 465 doesn't come into the picture for anyone who does their homework. Will the 465 make a good firewood saw? no doubt! The problem is the fact for less money, you can pick up a saw like the cs-590, which is likely one reason the 465 even exists.


I consider the 590 one of the best values in the world of chainsaws. However, the 465 sports almost a half horse extra so I'd say it does have it's own niche.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 28, 2016)

svk said:


> the 465 sports almost a half horse extra so I'd say it does have it's own niche.



Maybe so, maybe with a mm not so much, but that is pure speculation on my part. If I didn't just buy a 562 i'd pick up a 465 and see what's what.[emoji6]


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## svk (Apr 28, 2016)

I'd really consider buying a 465 for s & g if I hadn't gotten tangled up into these other fixer uppers. I can imagine the price from spike would be quite close to a 590.


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## sunfish (Apr 28, 2016)

We need a thread on the 465. We is spike60? He has one I assume.


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## weimedog (Apr 28, 2016)

sunfish said:


> We need a thread on the 465. We is spike60? He has one I assume.


He has several... pulled one out for the NYS GTG at the Cutting Edge. I put a post up "

*Upstate NY GTG 16' - April 24th Notes. Spike60 Discusses the New Husqvarna 465*

And that is in fact about the introduction of that saw... "Spike60" style...


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## CoreyB (Apr 28, 2016)

How much did they say it was?


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## blsnelling (Apr 28, 2016)

Scablands said:


> I must be a weirdo. I've been shopping for a smaller saw as a backup for my MS461. After looking at the weights and weight to power ratio of 60cc saws, I'm just going to buy a second 461 and a 20" lightweight bar for small firewood whacking duty. Aside from price, I don't see the appeal of a 60cc saw. Maybe I haven't packed my 461 up enough hills yet to be smart. The only appreciable weight benefit I see to going smaller appears in the 40cc class saws where you're in to a 10lb powerhead versus 14-15.
> 
> I will now yield the soapbox to find out why I am so wrong...


I agree entirely. A 70cc saw makes way more power than a 60cc saw, and a 50cc saw is way smaller and lighter. I'll opt for a 50cc or 70cc every time. I'm becoming very fond of my MS241 though.


----------



## sunfish (Apr 28, 2016)

weimedog said:


> He has several... pulled one out for the NYS GTG at the Cutting Edge. I put a post up "
> 
> *Upstate NY GTG 16' - April 24th Notes. Spike60 Discusses the New Husqvarna 465*
> 
> And that is in fact about the introduction of that saw... "Spike60" style...


Thanks, I missed that one.


----------



## svk (Apr 28, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> How much did they say it was?


He didn't say on the video from what I heard. But I'd bet it will be a good price.


----------



## Idahonative (Apr 28, 2016)

svk said:


> I consider the 590 one of the best values in the world of chainsaws. However, the 465 sports almost a half horse extra so I'd say it does have it's own niche.



A 465 really can't be compared to a 590 from a value perspective. The MSRP on the 465 is $549.95. The MSRP on the 590 is $399 and can be bought at Home Depot for $360 with the 10% military discount. At that price, the 465 is $190 more...not even comparable. And from a power perspective: It is only a guess but if a person were to MM and tune the 590, I would guess that the 465 would have a hard time hanging with the 590 even though the Husky "sports almost a half horse extra". Now if a person isn't into basic mods then the 465 (with auto tune) may be worth the extra money.

Some other 465 negatives:

- At 13 lb, 7.2 oz., it's slightly heavier than a cs-590 (13 lb, 3.2 oz.).
- At 64.1cc, it's in a bad place...between a MUCH lighter 50cc, a SLIGHTLY lighter 60cc, and a NOT MUCH heavier 70cc.
- It comes standard with .058 ga. and previous model 460 Ranchers ran .050. So if you are "upgrading" to a 465, you can't use those extra chains.

It seems Husqvarna's response to the Echo cs-590's strong sales was to fatten up the 460 Rancher. The 465 has more displacement, is heavier, and cost $40 more than the previous model 460. Some guys will look at the 465 as they are comparing saws and think they got to have one because it's bigger, better, and more powerful than the competition. There's no way I would choose a 465 over a 590 but that has more to do with my dislike of anything "auto tune". That and the fact that a MM & tune is an easy task on the 590.

Waiting for SawTroll to show up and rip my post to shreds.


----------



## svk (Apr 28, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> A 465 really can't be compared to a 590 from a value perspective. The MSRP on the 465 is $549.95. The MSRP on the 590 is $399 and can be bought at Home Depot for $360 with the 10% military discount. At that price, the 465 is $190 more...not even comparable. And from a power perspective: It is only a guess but if a person were to MM and tune the 590, I would guess that the 465 would have a hard time hanging with the 590 even though the Husky "sports almost a half horse extra". Now if a person isn't into basic mods then the 465 (with auto tune) may be worth the extra money.
> 
> Some other 465 negatives:
> 
> ...


Well that's your opinion anyhow. 

1) The price from spike and other higher volume dealers will significantly close the price gap between the two saws. 

2) Comparing a stock to a modded saw is laughable. Of course a mm'd 590 will cut close to a stock 465. Open up the 465 and your 590 will be left in the dust again. 

3) I've never heard anyone gripe about .050 vs .058. Any dealer worth his salt will send you out the door with the bar and chain you need, within reason. 

4) All other things equal, I don't know anyone who wouldn't add 4 ounces of weight to gain a half horsepower.


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## Idahonative (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> Well that's your opinion anyhow.
> 
> 1) The price from spike and other higher volume dealers will significantly close the price gap between the two saws.
> 
> ...



I can't wait for the Echo cs-590 vs. Husky 465 comparison vids to start showing up on YouTube...both MM'd. Then we can discuss the extra 1/2 horse and the fact that factory hp specs don't mean much.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> Well that's your opinion anyhow.
> 
> 1) The price from spike and other higher volume dealers will significantly close the price gap between the two saws.
> 
> ...



1) The vast majority of dealers stick to MSRP. Spike and some of the other dealers here are the exception, not the norm.

2) Total speculation. based on my experance 590 may spank a 465, but again this is nothing more than speculation on my part, I may very well be off base and completely wrong. 

3) .050 chain isn't common my area, so for some who buy local it can be a small inconvenience.

4) No doubt 4 ounces for a .5 hp would be worth the extra cost. However the intake complexity and lets be honest, the reliability of AT saws is still somewhat questionable.

Now I've never been a big 60cc saw guy myself, but this 562 I have has been quite the saw so far!! Is it a replacement for a 372 like some say? absolutely not IMHO, but it really closed the once very large gap. If I get the time over the weekend I'll be giving a bit more insight between the cs-590 and 562xp, maybe a side by side comparison. My thoughts so far the 562 has more zip in small stuff and better balance. The 590 seems to have more usable power in larger wood and maybe better AV, this saw reminds me of a Dolmar 6400.


----------



## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

Well thankfully I already have the best 60cc saw for me , I could write three paragraphs of what makes it such a great saw. But I don't want to share.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 29, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Well thankfully I already have the best 60cc saw for me , I could write three paragraphs of what makes it such a great saw. But I don't want to share.



lol I say have at it, the 6100 looks like a sweet saw. 

I really don't think this thread will become a which saw is best deal, at least I hope not.


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Maybe so, maybe with a mm not so much, but that is pure speculation on my part. *If I didn't just buy a 562 i'd pick up a 465 and see what's what*.[emoji6]



I don't really think so, at least I wouldn't - but that aside, I believe it will be a very useful firewood saw for a lot of people.


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> ....
> 
> Waiting for SawTroll to show up and rip my post to shreds.



Not this time. 




It is already done.


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> .... The question with the likes of Echo, is how long can they get away with not moving on to strato engine designs?
> 
> .....



Yes, that's a good question.

At some point it won't be good enough to design (most of) the saws for a low power output, that they keep quiet about in North America....


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> Well that's your opinion anyhow.
> 
> 1) The price from spike and other higher volume dealers will significantly close the price gap between the two saws.
> 
> ...



It isn't the first time @Idahonative has been told this - and it likely won't be the last....


----------



## 7sleeper (Apr 29, 2016)

Personally I find 1/2 hp laughable, a sharp chain with correct height rakers has more impact than the 1/2 hp and we aren't even bringing in correct carb settings, correct cutting techniques, etc.

7


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

Love the pontifications of the brand loyal....I remember the same stuff being said about the 455....too much this and too much that not enough of something else.... and I wonder how many of those saws it was stacked up against during all its time in service that actually out sold it..

A couple of thoughts come to mind. First I don't have a horse in the race, as I don't sell either new saws or porting services. Second...I see this all the time....if you listen to all the experts about saws such as the 455 and Stihl MS250/251 they should never have sold a one. Too much Plastic, too heavy for the power, clam shell, hard to modify, on and on. Fact is they have sold a lot of them. AND I rarely see an older one that has died in a catastrophic way other than crush damage. For what they were designed to address and in the environment they were designed to live, they have done spectacularly well, both in performance and sales.

The new 465 is the next logical step in that series of saw and from the first impression I had, my bet it will yet again cofound all the "paper" logic and perform well both in service and sales... Despite all its theoretical failings.

First..MSRP is rarely the true price point of those saws.....just a guide line.

Second...It's auto tune is a next evolution from a company that now has a lot of real world experience in that area...Companies that haven't developed and sold this technology will likely have similar teething issues Husqvarna had back in 2012/13 with the 562 series. And in fact the throttle linkage in some new famous name auto tune style saws is case and point.

Third..90 percent of folks buying saws couldn't give a rip about the theoretical modification potentials and construction, all they want is a saw that will start easy and often over its live span and cut wood.

Fourth as the 455 has proven, most saw purchasers also don't care about our feelings relative to power and weight...and in fact the 465 does have quite a bit more power than the 455. And its quiet. Starts easy and cuts wood. All things those in the market for a saw such as a 465 want. And it has the right brand... some thing esoteric and not logical for the saw geek, especially one that lives in the cyber world among experts...but something that Stihl and Husqvarna have banked on for years. While Echo's are excellent saws and might be a better on paper choice....why aren't they number one?

Bottom line? the 465 is a nice saw and made a good first impression. I'll probably buy one for the farm for a whole lot of reasons not related it price, power, performance, and the theoretical short comings of autotune systems. And so will many others with similar requirements... Wonder what the Echo autotune haters will say when They have to go to the dark side in their product line? Remember all the angst when Husqvarna had to obsolete the 372? With the Dolmar/Makita 6100 series and the New Stihls's.... my hunch is there will be a Echo in the future as well with some derivative of the dreaded autotune...


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Personally I find 1/2 hp laughable, a sharp chain with correct height rakers has more impact than the 1/2 hp and we aren't even bringing in correct carb settings, correct cutting techniquea, etc.
> 
> 7



Max engine power is of course just one of several factors - but the difference doesn't disappear by itself, regardless what else is different. Everything else being the same, halv a hp is quite a bit.

Of course max hp just is a snapshot of one point of the power curve - in practical cutting it may work like the difference is less, or more, depending on the power curve (and of course all the other factors).


----------



## Franny K (Apr 29, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> I agree entirely. A 70cc saw makes way more power than a 60cc saw, and a 50cc saw is way smaller and lighter. I'll opt for a 50cc or 70cc every time. I'm becoming very fond of my MS241 though.


We need some definitions as to the cc range for these classes. I just looked at the Stihl website and the jump is 59cc to 76.5cc, 362 to 461.

Getting back to the title of this thread do you think today's 50cc saws are comparable to yesterday's 60cc?


----------



## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Personally I find 1/2 hp laughable, a sharp chain with correct height rakers has more impact than the 1/2 hp and we aren't even bringing in correct carb settings, correct cutting techniquea, etc.
> 
> 7


Like Idaho, you are getting into the world of yabutts (yeah but). Of course a smaller saw with a laser sharp chain will cut faster than a larger saw with a dull chain. 

All other things equal, the more powerful saw will cut faster with very few exceptions. You are only kidding yourself to say otherwise. One of the few exceptions would be limbing with a small high revving saw vs an older low revving saw.


----------



## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> I can't wait for the Echo cs-590 vs. Husky 465 comparison vids to start showing up on YouTube...both MM'd. Then we can discuss the extra 1/2 horse and the fact that factory hp specs don't mean much.


I shall look forward to it as well.

Much like all the smack talk about a 6100 outcutting a 562....we saw how that one turned out.


----------



## sunfish (Apr 29, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> A 465 really can't be compared to a 590 from a value perspective. The MSRP on the 465 is $549.95. The MSRP on the 590 is $399 and can be bought at Home Depot for $360 with the 10% military discount. At that price, the 465 is $190 more...not even comparable. And from a power perspective: It is only a guess but if a person were to MM and tune the 590, I would guess that the 465 would have a hard time hanging with the 590 even though the Husky "sports almost a half horse extra". Now if a person isn't into basic mods then the 465 (with auto tune) may be worth the extra money.
> 
> Some other 465 negatives:
> 
> ...


Oh you're back. Cool...

& what's wrong with .058 gauge?


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Franny K said:


> .....
> 
> Getting back to the title of this thread do you think today's 50cc saws are comparable to yesterday's 60cc?



You need to define when "yesterday" was, and it still will depend on what specific models (or at least quality level) are involved.

If you compare todays highest rated 50cc saws to the highest rated 60cc saw of any given time, you need to go back to before the 162se, meaning 1975.
If you refer to "average" output for a decent saw in the size, you need to go further back.

To put it another way, an "average" 50cc saw today barely make more max power that the better ones did in the early 1970s (exemple, Jonsereds 51/52) - but it is of course lighter. The difference in power between 50 and 60cc saws was lower back then.

An interesting observation is that you need to go back to the 1950s to find a decent quality 50cc saw that was rated at less power than the current Echo 500/490 (the Comet and Jonsereds Raket diesel saws)...


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Franny K said:


> We need some definitions as to the cc range for these classes. I just looked at the Stihl website and the jump is 59cc to 76.5cc, 362 to 461.
> 
> ....



Web sites some times live their own "life" - I'm reasonably sure the 441 hasn't been discontinued, at 70.7cc.


----------



## Franny K (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> You need to define when "yesterday" was, and it still will depend on what specific models (or at least quality level) are involved.
> 
> ....


This was a line of thought earlier in this thread that I thought kind of got lost as the title says proven over time.

Let's say I choose the 58cc Homelite which was mentioned earlier as the yesterday to compare to.


----------



## Franny K (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> An interesting observation is that you need to go back to the 1950s to find a decent quality 50cc saw that was rated at less power than the current Echo 500/490 (the Comet and Jonsereds Raket diesel saws)...


I am sure your understanding of what type of power rating method has been used over the years is greater than mine. Whether it is claimed, independently tested or something else. After getting a class action lawsuit mailing over lawn mower hp it seems a reasonable corporate policy to not over rate. Still is interesting.


----------



## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> *I can say positive things about Echo* and not start an argument.


Positive? Really?? See below:


Idahonative said:


> *A 465 really can't be compared*....I would guess that the 465 would have a hard time hanging with the 590 even though the Husky "sports almost a half horse extra". Now if a person isn't into basic mods then the 465 (with auto tune) may be worth the extra money.
> 
> *Some other 465 negatives:*
> 
> ...


I think you need to rephrase your statement.


----------



## Idahonative (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> Positive? Really?? See below:
> 
> I think you need to rephrase your statement.



Hey Steve, since you like to take things out of context, let me repost my post:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*"A 465 really can't be compared to a 590 from a value perspective*. The MSRP on the 465 is $549.95. The MSRP on the 590 is $399 and can be bought at Home Depot for $360 with the 10% military discount. At that price, the 465 is $190 more...not even comparable. And from a power perspective: It is only a guess but if a person were to MM and tune the 590, I would guess that the 465 would have a hard time hanging with the 590 even though the Husky "sports almost a half horse extra". Now if a person isn't into basic mods then the 465 (with auto tune) may be worth the extra money.

Some other 465 negatives:

- At 13 lb, 7.2 oz., it's slightly heavier than a cs-590 (13 lb, 3.2 oz.).
- At 64.1cc, it's in a bad place...between a MUCH lighter 50cc, a SLIGHTLY lighter 60cc, and a NOT MUCH heavier 70cc.
- It comes standard with .058 ga. and previous model 460 Ranchers ran .050. So if you are "upgrading" to a 465, you can't use those extra chains.

It seems Husqvarna's response to the Echo cs-590's strong sales was to fatten up the 460 Rancher. The 465 has more displacement, is heavier, and cost $40 more than the previous model 460. Some guys will look at the 465 as they are comparing saws and think they got to have one because it's bigger, better, and more powerful than the competition. There's no way I would choose a 465 over a 590 but that has more to do with my dislike of anything "auto tune". That and the fact that a MM & tune is an easy task on the 590."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure why you are so sensitive about my post. It's only my opinion and if yours differs, hey, I respect that.


----------



## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

I have no problem with you having a different opinion. You claim to be attacked because you said positive things about Echo. When in reality you were bashing a different brand.


----------



## Idahonative (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> I have no problem with you having a different opinion. You claim to be attacked because you said positive things about Echo. When in reality you were bashing a different brand.



If it makes you feel better, I think the 465 would make a fantastic firewood saw...just not for me. Are we ok with that?


----------



## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> If it makes you feel better, I think the 465 would make a fantastic firewood saw...just not for me. Are we ok with that?


Like you said at the top of the page, you are just here to stir the pot. I hope your stay is enjoyable.


----------



## 7sleeper (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> Max engine power is of course just one of several factors - but the difference doesn't disappear by itself, regardless what else is different. Everything else being the same, halv a hp is quite a bit.
> 
> Of course max hp just is a snapshot of one point of the power curve - in practical cutting it may work like the difference is less, or more, depending on the power curve (and of course all the other factors).





svk said:


> Like Idaho, you are getting into the world of yabutts (yeah but). Of course a smaller saw with a laser sharp chain will cut faster than a larger saw with a dull chain.
> 
> All other things equal, the more powerful saw will cut faster with very few exceptions. You are only kidding yourself to say otherwise. One of the few exceptions would be limbing with a small high revving saw vs an older low revving saw.


Without a doubt a chainsaw with 1/2hp more will cut faster in a single cut, I never denied that fact! For me the factor at the end of the day is will it translate to more cut wood? And to be honest I doubt it. And again I am strictly talking downing trees and bucking up from leaf to root with a single saw. And in this context I seriously doubt that 1/2hp will make a serious impact. There have been enough videos here in the past where one sees maybe a second or so superiority over the weaker saw. That is fine for the single cut, but I seriously doubt as mentioned above that that translates in more cut wood at the end of the day / major time savings in a real world context!

No doubt either saw will serve any buyer perfectly for the intended use. 

7


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Without a doubt a chainsaw with 1/2hp more will cut faster in a single cut, I never denied that fact! For me the factor at the end of the day is will it translate to more cut wood? And to be honest I doubt it. And again I am strictly talking downing trees and bucking up from leaf to root with a single saw. *And in this context I seriously doubt that 1/2hp will make a serious impact*. There have been enough videos here in the past where one sees maybe a second or so superiority over the weaker saw. That is fine for the single cut, but I seriously doubt as mentioned above that that translates in more cut wood at the end of the day / major time savings in a real world context!
> 
> No doubt either saw will serve any buyer perfectly for the intended use.
> 
> 7



In such a setting that depends on several other factors as well, like handling and throttle response, that many people tend to dismiss.


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## 7sleeper (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> In such a setting that depends on several other factors as well, like handling and throttle response, that many people tend to dismiss.


Absolutely correct, but for the intended buyers who only cut a few trees a year for personal firewood use, I hardly doubt they will notice any major impact on their work progress. 

7


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## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Absolutely correct, but for the intended buyers who only cut a few trees a year for personal firewood use, I hardly doubt they will notice any major impact on their work progress.
> 
> 7


Yes!

Which also makes speculation like muff modding, porting, etc pretty much moot in a discussion about HO saws. The average HO might really go to the wild side and buy a different length bar for their saw. Any discussions beyond that are in the 1% of AS addicts LOL.


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Absolutely correct, but for the intended buyers who only cut a few trees a year for personal firewood use, I hardly doubt they will notice any major impact on their work progress.
> 
> 7



True, but it makes it more fun when everything is right, and it never is outside a few Husky xp saws.


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## 7sleeper (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> True, but it makes it more fun when everything is right = certain Husky xp saws, and nothing else, at the moment.


Many people have other choices, but that is strictly their preference which I respect.

7


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Love the pontifications of the brand loyal....I remember the same stuff being said about the 455....too much this and too much that not enough of something else.... and I wonder how many of those saws it was stacked up against during all its time in service that actually out sold it..
> 
> A couple of thoughts come to mind. First I don't have a horse in the race, as I don't sell either new saws or porting services. Second...I see this all the time....if you listen to all the experts about saws such as the 455 and Stihl MS250/251 they should never have sold a one. Too much Plastic, too heavy for the power, clam shell, hard to modify, on and on. Fact is they have sold a lot of them. AND I rarely see an older one that has died in a catastrophic way other than crush damage. For what they were designed to address and in the environment they were designed to live, they have done spectacularly well, both in performance and sales.
> 
> ...


 I agree with pretty much everything you said. However we both know you lean towards Husqvarna [emoji6]. 

Everything you said about the 455 and new 465 is correct. As is everything I've said about the cs590. Now I'm no Echo fan boy! I do own a cs590, bought one to see if it was worth anything, and found out it was a game changer in the homeowner firewood segment. Further more, people are are becoming increasingly educated and informed about everything. What happens when someone runs a search for a good firewood saw? they get directed here, same thing happens on YouTube. 

Now am I a saw elitist? Maybe, maybe not. I try to look at the value each saw has based on intended use, price, construction and yes simplicity. Husqvarna and Stihl may sells more saws than Echo by leaps and bounds, but my guess is the cs590 has woken them up from their slumber of producing sub par homeowner products, which is what happens when you have little to no competition.

Now one of theses days I'll get my hands on a 465 just for a shakedown, if it's anything like the 455 or ms391 it won't be here long, it would have to be a game changer to stay here, I just don't see that, but I have been wrong once or twice.[emoji3]


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

All true..almost. my favorite brand is those red husqvarna's... and I spend time with those sawz because it's what I have. I think the only echo I ever ran was a pole saw.... so really don't have the experience to say a thing about them...have to think if you say they are good they probably are. If one tumbles into the shop then I will begin the learning process....until then I will speculate my 555 and 562 will cut well enough to keep me happy same as your echo will do the same for u.. how's that?  
I will likely end up with a 465 for a saw on the tractor....


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## Big Block (Apr 29, 2016)

It is all **** talking until we get all the saws on a dyno. Manufacture specs don't mean much. Figures lie and liars figure. Some saws are overrated some are underrated. The dyno shows all. So who has one?


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Many people have other choices, but that is strictly their preference which I respect.
> 
> 7



Well, if I respect it depends on what it is - I don't respect obviously misguided opinions, including most "best deal" opinions, as that always will vary with who you ask and where you are.

Imo, the best deal in the 60cc class (at this time) always will be the 560xpg, regardless what the cost is on different markets. Period.


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Big Block said:


> It is all **** talking until we get all the saws on a dyno. Manufacture specs don't mean much. Figures lie and liars figure. Some saws are overrated some are underrated. The dyno shows all. So who has one?



If so, it has to be a certified dyno - but the specs of at least Swedish and German (minus Solo?) saws are from such dynos anyway. Japanese (Shindaiwa) saws failed miserably when tested on a certified German dyno about a decade ago, putting out much less power than claimed.


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## Big Block (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> If so, it has to be a certified dyno - but the specs of at least Swedish and German (minus Solo?) saws are from such dynos anyway. Japanese (Shindaiwa) saws failed miserably when tested on a certified German dyno about a decade ago, putting out much less power than claimed.



Oh hell I thought you had me on ignore lol.


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## svk (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> If so, it has to be a certified dyno - but the specs of at least Swedish and German (minus Solo?) saws are from such dynos anyway. Japanese (Shindaiwa) saws failed miserably when tested on a certified German dyno about a decade ago, putting out much less power than claimed.


Something is amiss here then. 

Dolmar 6100 4.5 hp
Stihl MS362 4.7 hp
Husky 562 4.7 hp

From everything I've seen the 562 beats the 6100 which beats the 362. Someone is either under or over rating their product.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> All true..almost. my favorite brand is those red husqvarna's... and I spend time with those sawz because it's what I have. I think the only echo I ever ran was a pole saw.... so really don't have the experience to say a thing about them...have to think if you say they are good they probably are. If one tumbles into the shop then I will begin the learning process....until then I will speculate my 555 and 562 will cut well enough to keep me happy same as your echo will do the same for u.. how's that?
> I will likely end up with a 465 for a saw on the tractor....


Now see gentlemen we can have a good conversation without any negatively whatever, which is awesome.

To be honest the Echo is my loner saw if you will, I still prefer my Dolmar 7900 for most stuff. I am becoming found of this 562. Also put a few hours on my 390xp, not a bad saw with a mm and unlimited coil.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> Something is amiss here then.
> 
> Dolmar 6100 4.5 hp
> Stihl MS362 4.7 hp
> ...


I hold little stock in manufacture listed hp numbers. I've seen saws of the same make and model run completely different. Case in point my 346 will run with some ported saws, and some 346's I've ran were anemic. So I just go by displacement.


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## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

I would like to see compair a well broken in 6100 with a 562. I know it is easy to choose the 6100 over the 562.


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

svk said:


> Something is amiss here then.
> 
> Dolmar 6100 4.5 hp
> Stihl MS362 4.7 hp
> ...



Those numbers are all hp(i), in the more commonly used hp(m), they are 4.6, 4.8 and 4.8. Remember that they just are the max numbers, at a certain rpm in each case, and the power curves outside that rpm vary. The difference in kW is just .1, which is 1.34 hp(i) or 1.36 hp(m) - but be careful about using maths on rounded off numbers...

There is nothing unusual with your observation, but it is interesting that the Dolmar performed better than the Stihl (is it an older non-AT one?). It is not news that the Husky is the best performer of the lot.


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

All fun and games aside, since 60cc saws have become a focus for me...actually a 6100 and an echo 590 are saws I would like to get some time on. I'm past caring about which saw has the most power and the typical measuring stick things we endlessly post about. To me if after an hour or three I still want to run a saw, its a good saw. Power is only one element for me. Vibration has become more and more important as I get older. Weight as well. Ease of starting and re starting is really important. Especially in cold weather. Ergo's.... all these things in addition to power will make a saw a success vs. wanting to go back to my 562 or even worst the 372 "cyclops" saw I built and have used for a couple of years now.

A test for me is to put the saws on the tail gate of the truck or on the quad....do a job and then the one I want to run the most wins.


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## Franny K (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Vibration has become more and more important as I get older.


Do you have any opinion whether angling the cylinder back has design advantages in this regard? A single cylinder really can't be balanced just a balance factor how much of the shaking in the cylinder direction is re directed 90 degrees.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 29, 2016)

Couldn't agree more, a good running saw is all I really care about anymore. Comparing whose ported saw is fastest is old news in my book. 

The main reason I like the Echo is it's simplicity, which likely means it will be extremely reliable. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

Franny K said:


> Do you have any opinion whether angling the cylinder back has design advantages in this regard? A single cylinder really can't be balanced just a balance factor how much of the shaking in the cylinder direction is re directed 90 degrees.



Not really other than the fact that my 555 (doesn't have stuffers) is the smoothest saw I have ever run..by far. Even smoother than the 562 (has stuffers). I think the tilted cylinder has more to do with the volume of the muffler and also the exhaust/transfer lay out than it does vibration. These new strato designs really seem to want heat in the transfers.


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## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

Ya if a saw doesn't start easy and last the day it is on it's way out the door. No matter what cc.


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## Big Block (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> All fun and games aside, since 60cc saws have become a focus for me...actually a 6100 and an echo 590 are saws I would like to get some time on. I'm past caring about which saw has the most power and the typical measuring stick things we endlessly post about. To me if after an hour or three I still want to run a saw, its a good saw. Power is only one element for me. Vibration has become more and more important as I get older. Weight as well. Ease of starting and re starting is really important. Especially in cold weather. Ergo's.... all these things in addition to power will make a saw a success vs. wanting to go back to my 562 or even worst the 372 "cyclops" saw I built and have used for a couple of years now.
> 
> A test for me is to put the saws on the tail gate of the truck or on the quad....do a job and then the one I want to run the most wins.



I just watched one of your videos on you tube with the "cyclops" that thing is down right mean. Good job


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## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Not really other than the fact that my 555 (doesn't have stuffers) is the smoothest saw I have ever run..by far. Even smoother than the 562 (has stuffers). I think the tilted cylinder has more to do with the volume of the muffler and also the exhaust/transfer lay out than it does vibration. These new strato designs really seem to want heat in the transfers.


I would like to try a 555 or Jonsered 2258.


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## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

Big Block said:


> I just watched one of your videos on you tube with the "cyclops" that thing is down right mean. Good job


Share a link please. I love chainsaw videos


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Couldn't agree more, a good running saw is all I really care about anymore. Comparing whose ported saw is fastest is old news in my book.
> 
> The main reason I like the Echo is it's simplicity, which likely means it will be extremely reliable.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk




I have in the truck right now:
562 tweaked by me (562TBM??)
372 w/ 52mm top end as "back up saw"
MS660 w/ 56mm top end for blocking and stumps

AND...an old Husqvarna 257. Yup...old but I run it and the 562 the most. (They are crowding out my 555 which in turn crowded out my 455) The thing about that 257 is it cuts well and as you said about the Echo...its simple. Really simple. I find myself drawn to saws like that. Another favorite of mine is a 42 with a 242 top end. Simple. Light. Way stronger than a 25+ year old saw is supposed to be. I'll take them over some of the new cluster eff's that I have seen recently every time.  (Maybe I shouldn't have said that)


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Share a link please. I love chainsaw videos


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## moondoggie (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


>


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## Big Block (Apr 29, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Share a link please. I love chainsaw videos


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## Big Block (Apr 29, 2016)

I'm too slow


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

There is a pile of them on the channel. One of my all time favorites was doing the 372 Huztl felling Hard maple... Over a day or so I videoed a bunch of trees and the ones where I under cut or cut the hinge too far and stuff like that, I seeded those into that video. Had one "setup" where I "hung" a tree and then wedged another one over to knock it down. Stupid stuff...but was a fun day.


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## weimedog (Apr 29, 2016)

But I think I'm more interested in seeing more about the guts of both the Dolmar 6100 and Echo now....


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## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> But I think I'm more interested in seeing more about the guts of both the Dolmar 6100 and Echo now....


I would like to see more on them as well. Of course I really like the 6100.


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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Couldn't agree more, a good running saw is all I really care about anymore. Comparing whose ported saw is fastest is old news in my book.
> 
> The main reason I like the Echo is it's simplicity, which likely means it will be extremely reliable.



If you want a demoted version of the 1980s, that's what you mainly get with Echo. That brand mainly is an insult to chainsaw users, but there are a few exceptions when you compare to the cheaper saws from the main brands.


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## svk (Apr 29, 2016)




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## SawTroll (Apr 29, 2016)

weimedog said:


> But I think I'm more interested in seeing more about the guts of both the Dolmar 6100 and Echo now....



You likely will be disappointed with both if you demand high performance, but the outcome will depend on what you compare them to.


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## Big Block (Apr 29, 2016)




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## CoreyB (Apr 29, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> You likely will be disappointed with both if you demand high performance, but the outcome will depend on what you compare them to.


LOL that is hilarious. Be careful drinking kool-aid some cult leaders poison it after awhile. 
The 6100 is a high performance quality machine


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Since I don't have either...it may take a while.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> But I think I'm more interested in seeing more about the guts of both the Dolmar 6100 and Echo now....


Lol I now want to have a closer look at the 465. From the little I could tell in your video, I would say it's a step in the right direction. 

Yeah I tend to gravitate towards saws with a simple choke lever and on off switch. Old Poulan's are it for me.[emoji4]


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Lol I now want to have a closer look at the 465. From the little I could tell in your video, I would say it's a step in the right direction.
> 
> Yeah I tend to gravitate towards saws with a simple choke lever and on off switch. Old Poulan's are it for me.[emoji4]



One thing I'm curious about is Spike's comment about it being more programmable... did you catch that? Now I'm curious what that exactly means. I've been disappointed with the other Auto Tune concepts where we have no access to fiddle with fuel and timing curves..


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

If Saw troll is right, an Echo CS590 is like a throw back saw...maybe like my 257, only new?? Maybe more like a 262? Can't get top ends any more so maybe an Echo is an alternative simple saw in that power and weight class...only current and new? That would be an interesting saw.


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## Big Block (Apr 30, 2016)

@rattler362 said the porting on a 620 is very close to a 262xp


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## Big Block (Apr 30, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> LOL that is hilarious. Be careful drinking kool-aid some cult leaders poison it after awhile.
> The 6100 is a high performance quality machine



Let the schoosting begin lol


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> One thing I'm curious about is Spike's comment about it being more programmable... did you catch that? Now I'm curious what that exactly means. I've been disappointed with the other Auto Tune concepts where we have no access to fiddle with fuel and timing curves..



I did catch that, might be tuning our saws with a phone app someday. Well we can hope anyway.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> If Saw troll is right, an Echo CS590 is like a throw back saw...maybe like my 257, only new?? Maybe more like a 262? Can't get top ends any more so maybe an Echo is an alternative simple saw in that power and weight class...only current and new? That would be an interesting saw.



Removing the carb on the cs590 takes like 20 seconds. The cylinder casting is the cleanest I've ever seen! Nice flat torque curve, plenty of stock compression as well, mine pumps 180psi. It's just a simple high quality low cost saw. It's not without fault however. The saw has a plastic top handle and side plate "which some say feels cheap" spur drive sprocket, laminated bar, plus it's a bit bulky/heavy for the displacement. I'm also not a fan of the air filter, but it seems to do it's job well enough.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Removing the carb on the cs590 takes like 20 seconds. The cylinder casting is the cleanest I've ever seen! Nice flat torque curve, plenty of stock compression as well, mine pumps 180psi. It's just a simple high quality low cost saw. It's not without fault however. The saw has a plastic top handle and side plate "which some say feels cheap" spur drive sprocket, laminated bar, plus it's a bit bulky/heavy for the displacement. I'm also not a fan of the air filter, but it seems to do it's job well enough.



So...usually price with folks like us isn't the main deal. Its how interesting the saw is and how much we like it. There is NO possible way to justify how many saws we have in the garage and in the saw "retirement" home! So adding a few bucks is a non issue if we are being honest.

Therefore... how hard can it be to replace the clutch drum with an after market spline/rim style? And put a Sugi bar on that thing to make it both look better and be lighter? Is it a candidate for either a no base gasket or a no base gasket/popup mod? Along with a muffler mod to make it feel and sound less bulky? Simple stuff to perk it up...then the cost is similar to the big brand 60's with a possible performance edge to go with its "simple" advantage?


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## Hoolio (Apr 30, 2016)

Depends a lot on what area and what country. In my part of Australia the type of trees here just take power. I use my MM 550 for up to 8, maybe 10inches. Anything over I use the 372. I know neither are a 60cc but if I had to get rid of them both and get one saw it would be between 70-90cc.


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> I would like to try a 555 or Jonsered 2258.





weimedog said:


> If Saw troll is right, an Echo CS590 is like a throw back saw...maybe like my 257, only new?? Maybe more like a 262? Can't get top ends any more so maybe an Echo is an alternative simple saw in that power and weight class...only current and new? That would be an interesting saw.



The 590 is stronger than the 257, but nowhere near the 262, according to specs. The quality feel isn't in the same league as any of them, as have been pointed out (plastic handlebar etc,), and the plastic covers of the Echo saws just feels cheap to me.

What makes the 590 attractive *in the US* is of course is of course that it is a metal cased saw for a very low price, in a very useful size. When you compare the 590 to plastic cased clamshell saws it looks pretty good - at least on paper.

Echo saws aren't particularly cheap over here, and they aren't much of a factor in the market.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

I guess we have a dealer or three around here but in 15 years I've never actually seen one in use. Just one pole saw that sits in my shed needing a bunch of tubing. That does strike me as odd as this is a heavy agricultural type community and there also is a lot of tree work and logging going on. So who has been buying them?? Where do they go?


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> So...usually price with folks like us isn't the main deal. Its how interesting the saw is and how much we like it. There is NO possible way to justify how many saws we have in the garage and in the saw "retirement" home! So adding a few bucks is a non issue if we are being honest.
> 
> Therefore... how hard can it be to replace the clutch drum with an after market spline/rim style? And put a Sugi bar on that thing to make it both look better and be lighter? Is it a candidate for either a no base gasket or a no base gasket/popup mod? Along with a muffler mod to make it feel and sound less bulky? Simple stuff to perk it up...then the cost is similar to the big brand 60's with a possible performance edge to go with its "simple" advantage?



When I mention value, I have the average person in mind, not us saw fanatics. 

The sky is the limit when it comes to modifications, a simple mm makes a huge difference.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> I guess we have a dealer or three around here but in 15 years I've never actually seen one in use. Just one pole saw that sits in my shed needing a bunch of tubing. That does strike me as odd as this is a heavy agricultural type community and there also is a lot of tree work and logging going on. So who has been buying them?? Where do they go?



Every area is going to be different. Stihl was king here until recently, Echo stuff is more and more common these days. They're exactly zero Husqvarna dealers in the area, but this isn't exactly logging country.[emoji6]


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## Chris-PA (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> I've been disappointed with the other Auto Tune concepts where we have no access to fiddle with fuel and timing curves..


To some extent the concept of a feedback fuel system is the opposite of a programmed fuel curve. When something is programmed or mapped, then the output is determined by looking at various inputs, regardless of if the output is right or not. These inputs could be various sensors feeding into a micro where pre-programmed algorithms work out how much fuel to use, or it could be the sizes of holes, the position of needles and the shapes of parts as in a carb. 

A feedback system is looking primarily at one input that is some sort of measure of the output, and then it controls to keep that feedback sensor at a set point. In cars this is an O2 sensor, which is mostly a threshold device - it tells you if the mixture is over or under a set value determined by the chemistry of the sensor. So all of the tuning of fuel mapping for high performance has no effect whatever on how the car runs when it's in feedback (closed loop), because unless you change that O2 sensor it will still do the same thing. Rather it's all about how the thing runs when it's in open loop, like acceleration and high load.

Here, we're talking about a carb that was modified by adding a feedback system that looks at the results of a periodic lean out test. There is really only one value of fuel mixture that gives the correct result for the lean out test, so there is nothing to mod or change and no advantages to do so anyway. The only thing you could change is the open loop, non feedback operation - but that is just a carb! 

So if you want the advantages of a fuel system that is fully programmable and you can make the mixture whatever you want, including wrong, well we have lots of those - just put a non-feedback carb on it and mod away.


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## svk (Apr 30, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Every area is going to be different. Stihl was king here until recently, Echo stuff is more and more common these days. They're exactly zero Husqvarna dealers in the area, but this isn't exactly logging country.[emoji6]


Fwiw the Johnny/Echo dealer near my buddy is dropping Johnny due to big box pressure on prices. Echo is still profitable for him.


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

Franny K said:


> I am sure your understanding of what type of power rating method has been used over the years is greater than mine. Whether it is claimed, independently tested or something else. After getting a class action lawsuit mailing over lawn mower hp it seems a reasonable corporate policy to not over rate. Still is interesting.



It was really wild when some brands (on some markets) rated their saws in the the old SAE Gross hp, that was calculated, and not measured.

Even today there are some confusion, as at least some brands use a mix of hp(m) and hp(i) - but the difference there is less than 2%, so not a big deal - specially when also the kW numbers are stated.


----------



## Idahonative (Apr 30, 2016)

Andyshine77 said:


> Removing the carb on the cs590 takes like 20 seconds. The cylinder casting is the cleanest I've ever seen! Nice flat torque curve, plenty of stock compression as well, mine pumps 180psi. It's just a simple high quality low cost saw. It's not without fault however. The saw has a plastic top handle and side plate "which some say feels cheap" spur drive sprocket, laminated bar, plus it's a bit bulky/heavy for the displacement. I'm also not a fan of the air filter, but it seems to do it's job well enough.



Agree. That's why I would never pass up a deal on a cs-600p. More power than the 590, aluminum handle, rim drive, Echo (Oregon) power match bar. The last two I bought off Ebay a few months ago cost $400 NIB to my door. Those deals come along pretty frequently, more so in the winter months it seems. That saw just can't be beat at that price. Do a simple MM and tune and it will run right there with the rest as you have proven with your 590.

Even though the 600p has a limited coil, I can't tell much difference between it and the 620p in the cut (both MM'd & tuned). For the price they can be had at, it makes modding the 600p very attractive (same with the 590). Especially for guys like you who can do a lot of the work themselves. They can be turned into one of the highest performing saws out there. Everytime Mastermind does one, he comments on just how strong they are. I've been told by another member on this site that they will "outcut a 441 all day long" and "cut right with a 461" with a 20" bar. That kind of performance in a 13 lb 4.8 oz. power head, a very reasonably priced, simple, high quality, high performance saw. I would love to see how my MMWS 600p runs against a ported 562. I think it would be close but that's just a guess.

With the money I've spent on saws, I could have bought any one I wanted. I really like the 562xp but I'm old school and would rather die than own an auto tune saw. I have no doubt I would have owned that saw by now if it wasn't for the auto tune. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind someday but I doubt it. Everytime I read about an auto tune problem on these forums, it just reinforces the "old school" in me.

It's been mentioned many times but as far as price vs. performance goes, (IMO) the cs-590 has a lock in the 60cc class. The 590 retails for $399 at Home Depot and can be had for $360 with the military discount. There just isn't another 60cc saw that can compete with that. As your vid proves and others can attest to, do a MM and tune and it is just a heck of a saw:



P.S. - IMO, your vid may have more to do with Husky introducing the 465 than anything else. I believe it has done more to hurt the sales of Stihl and Husky's homeowner models than any other single piece of info out there on the net. Echo should have given you a cut of their huge 590 sales.


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## svk (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> Agree. That's why I would never pass up a deal on a cs-600p. More power than the 590, aluminum handle, rim drive, Echo (Oregon) power match bar. The last two I bought off Ebay a few months ago cost $400 NIB to my door. Those deals come along pretty frequently, more so in the winter months it seems. That saw just can't be beat at that price. Do a simple MM and tune and it will run right there with the rest as you have proven with your 590.
> 
> Even though the 600p has a limited coil, I can't tell much difference between it and the 620p in the cut (both MM'd & tuned). For the price they can be had at, it makes modding the 600p very attractive (same with the 590). Especially for guys like you who can do a lot of the work themselves. They can be turned into one of the highest performing saws out there. Everytime Mastermind does one, he comments on just how strong they are. I've been told by another member on this site that they will "outcut a 441 all day long" and "cut right with a 461" with a 20" bar. That kind of performance in a 13 lb 4.8 oz. power head, a very reasonably priced, simple, high quality, high performance saw. I would love to see how my MMWS 600p runs against a ported 562. I think it would be close but that's just a guess.
> 
> ...



I'd really like to try a 600 and 620 but I've never even seen one up here.


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Not really other than the fact that my 555 (doesn't have stuffers) is the smoothest saw I have ever run..by far. Even smoother than the 562 (has stuffers). I think the tilted cylinder has more to do with the volume of the muffler and also the exhaust/transfer lay out than it does vibration. These new strato designs really seem to want heat in the transfers.



The long stroke of those engines (for the cc size), combined with the wish to keep the saws low likely has something to do with tilted cylinders as well. Anyway, it isn't a new idea.


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## Idahonative (Apr 30, 2016)

svk said:


> I'd really like to try a 600 and 620 but I've never even seen one up here.



Wow, I didn't know that. Echo's have been around here since the mid 70's.


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## Chris-PA (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> I'm old school and would rather die than own an auto tune saw.


It is just a chainsaw, perhaps some perspective is in order.


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> Agree. That's why I would never pass up a deal on a *cs-600p. More power than the 590,* aluminum handle, rim drive, Echo (Oregon) power match bar. .



Where they issue power specs, Echo rates the 590, 600, 605 and 610 at exactly the same power, 3.0 kW/4.08 hp. They list the 620 at 3.32 kW/4.52 hp.

http://www.echotools.com/products/category/


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## svk (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> Wow, I didn't know that. Echo's have been around here since the mid 70's.


There are Echo here just not much for pro saws.


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## Idahonative (Apr 30, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> It is just a chainsaw, perhaps some perspective is in order.



Ok:

"I'd rather have my left arm cut off with a 562xp (with a dull chain) than to own an auto tune chainsaw."


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## svk (Apr 30, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> Where they issue power specs, Echo rates the 590, 600, 605 and 610 at exactly the same power, 3.0 kW/4.08 hp. They list the 620 at 3.32 kW/4.52 hp.
> 
> http://www.echotools.com/products/category/


I've seen the 590 rated at 3.8 here. Maybe a difference overseas?


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## Idahonative (Apr 30, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> Where they issue power specs, Echo rates the 590, 600, 605 and 610 at exactly the same power, 3.0 kW/4.08 hp. They list the 620 at 3.32 kW/4.52 hp.
> 
> http://www.echotools.com/products/category/



Hmmm...never heard you say that before Troll. If you haven't noticed, people are waking up to the fact that published hp numbers are mostly bs.


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> .... I really like the 562xp but I'm old school and would rather die than own an auto tune saw. I have no doubt I would have owned that saw by now if it wasn't for the auto tune. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind someday but I doubt it. Everytime I read about an auto tune problem on these forums, it just reinforces the "old school" in me.
> 
> .... .



I suspect it is limited how much longer the EPA will let Echo continue doing what they do (neither using "strato" or Autotune"). What has saved the brand from the EPA so far likely is closely connected to the low power output of most of the saws. A low power output means less pollution.

Most "Autotune problems" you read about has nothing to do with the Autotune itself, but with the carbs. Operator errors often are involved as well.

People tend to blame the Autotune for normal chainsaw issues, that has nothing to do with the Autotune.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> P.S. - IMO, your vid may have more to do with Husky introducing the 465 than anything else. I believe it has done more to hurt the sales of Stihl and Husky's homeowner models than any other single piece of info out there on the net. Echo should have given you a cut of their huge 590 sales.



What?

Explain this please. And why would you post this if I'm reading it correctly. What is your definition of win? 

My posting this thread was about 60cc saws generically... the 465 is yet another entry into that price point and market place. Almost sounds like you are defensive to the point of desperation pushing so hard against the 465 and for a 590, interesting as it might be. I don't particularly care which one does best relative the others..and the postings here really don't have that much impact on the overall market place. We talk to each other. That's about it. Fact is all these saws work really well. The 465 is interesting to me... Andy got my attention as now I'm interested in the 590 because of his endorsement. If all I heard was yours....I would simply have ignored it and saw it for what it was.  And the fact you are still here means you are paying attention to ours.... trying to spam it doesn't help your position, conversation does. My bet? The 455/465 & Home owner Stihl's sell more than all the Echo's combined...


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

svk said:


> I've seen the 590 rated at 3.8 here. Maybe a difference overseas?



What I posted is a link to is their "global" site. There may of course be additional EPA related restrictions on US saws, I don't really know. Also I wonder where you have seen that number, as Echo (usually) don't list the power outputs in North America?

Another possibility is that the model may have been upgraded/uprated at some time?


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> What?
> 
> Explain this please. And why would you post this if I'm reading it correctly. What is your definition of win?



I didn't understand it either...


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## Big Block (Apr 30, 2016)




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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Big Block said:


>



Yup its turning the corner unfortunately because there are a few who want it to. BUT there are plenty of others topics on arboristsite to pay attention to.. And thankfully I have other things in my life to focus on...


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Dolmar has entered the AutoTune fray with the PS-6100 and if I understand correctly there are several more to come over the next couple of years. Obviously that fits into the 60cc discussion. Echo will eventually have to follow the class leaders. I'm certain they will do a good job as they have been around a while. I actually have an old metal one a guy gave me from the 1980's hoping to have time to get it running this year.


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## SawTroll (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> Hmmm...never heard you say that before Troll. If you haven't noticed, people are waking up to the fact that published hp numbers are mostly bs.



That is totally wrong, as they mostly are actual measured numbers from a calibrated and approved (or whatever it is called) dyno. At least that is the case in Europe, and I can't imagine it is much different in Japan or the US. The days of the calculated SAE Gross hp is long gone.

In addition, independant dyno testing of chainsaws have been going on for decades in Germany (DLG and KWF), and I have seen most of the results from the last couple of decades. The results most often confirm the factory power specs to the closest .1 kW (but not always at the exact rpm that the specs say), while some tests show a .1 kW deviation from the specs (+/-). Only a couple of results have showed a .2 kW deviation, and there have been no larger ones.

However, there will always be variations from saw to saw (there is with all engines), and the numbers are just a snapshot of the highest point of the "power curve". By no means perfect - but it does give you a pretty good idea about what to expect.


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## CoreyB (Apr 30, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> Most "Autotune problems" you read about has nothing to do with the Autotune itself, but with the carbs. Operator errors often are involved as well.
> 
> People tend to blame the Autotune for normal chainsaw issues, that has nothing to do with the Autotune.


I would think you would share this on all the 562 problem threads as well as the 555. There seems to be at least one thread a week on those with major problems. 
I thought the point of Autotune was to make the saw more simple for the operation of the saw. Why is it such a problem for people to operate it properly?


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> I would think you would share this on all the 562 problem threads as well as the 555. There seems to be at least one thread a week on those with major problems.
> I thought the point of Autotune was to make the saw more simple for the operation of the saw. Why is it such a problem for people to operate it properly?



The first generation auto tunes were different than the conventional choke/carb saws so there was a learning curve both for the manufacturer and the customers. Two converging lines....the development of the products / interfaces and folks learning how to use them. Those with 550/562's now have learned not to choke them as much or as often and expect that from their saws with Autotune...be it Husqvarna or Stihl. My 555 and 562 don't give me any issues and are actually easy to start and fun to run. And I don't have to twist a screw driver as I go from one season to the next. Actually looking forward to the 465 and its supposed more tunable autotune.

And on a derivative subject (not from your posting! ) Some times I wonder if some of the Autotune "hate" on places like this comes from those who need to diminish that technology as they have nothing comparable. Husqvarna, Stihl, and Dolmar all have gone through the first generation of that technology and are well into the second generation. Way ahead of those companies who have ne experience with that technology in the customer base. Walbro will sell to any saw builder and help them assimilate I'm sure, but how can a dealer or company recover credibility if their minions spend so much time and energy tearing apart the validity of a technology they eventually will have to adopt? Not a good strategy.

As far as thread's I'm not hearing or seeing many issues with the current generation of 555/562's (2014 and later). There have been a whole series of updates since they were introduced, and more are on the way. A natural progression of a product. And one of my "hobby interests" have been taking the early 562's and upgrading them with a few mods to the latest versions. Husqvarna has made that pretty easy to do. So yes I'm really interested in the 465 and even more so in the next iteration of 562 I know will happen...its just what Husqvarna has done over the years. Steady product growth and evolution. Also want to learn the Dolmar PS-6100, because I'm not as "brand" dependent as most and they too are both an interesting company and interesting saws to me... There is a lot out there on the New Stihl's so I stay with the "under dogs" like Dolmars PS-6100's, Husqvarna 555's, and now 465's.... for now. Not finished with my old style Stihl's just yet...therefore understand the tendency for some to be less than enthusiastic with these new Strato & Autotune type saws... 

(Have to admit the 555 was the beginning of me accepting but the 562's I built sealed it for me..really like those saws)


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## Chris-PA (Apr 30, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> I suspect it is limited how much longer the EPA will let Echo continue doing what they do (neither using "strato" or Autotune")


I don't believe the EPA cares how you meet the requirements, it's a performance test - apparently with some averaging across the product line. They'll want to see some assurance that the stuff that is actually sold performs like what was submitted too. All the solutions, both good and bad - AT, strato, exhaust delayed scavenging, cat mufflers, limiters, epoxy, choked porting, SLR mufflers etc. - are how the manufacturer chose to approach those requirements. Some of these solutions are better than others.


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## Chris-PA (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Dolmar has entered the AutoTune fray with the PS-6100


I thought it was their reed valve strato, but didn't think it was AT?


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> I thought it was their reed valve strato, but didn't think it was AT?



I honestly don't know ... as you said it doesn't matter how they achieve the desired results. So at this point I know virtually nothing about the Dolmar other than it's a precursor to what's coming in their model line over the next few years and it seems to make the EPA happy. Anything I learn about them is new knowledge to me. And to another post earlier in this thread; Folks say I'm Husqvarna focused....I am because its what I have access to. I just like working in the woods and enjoy the saw part of that equation regardless of brand, I've had more fun with My Huztl MS660 builds than anything short of the Husqvarna 372's & 562's....where is the brand loyalty in that?


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## svk (Apr 30, 2016)

Regarding issues with the early AT models: I once bought a first model year snowmobile and learned my lesson. I feel for those who have had issues. 

With that being said if legitimate issues come up from any saws that slipped through the cracks, any AS member should know darn well what to do with it at this point. And if they come across a dealer who doesn't know what to do, they need to find another dealer.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

svk said:


> Regarding issues with the early AT models: I once bought a first model year snowmobile and learned my lesson. I feel for those who have had issues.
> 
> With that being said if legitimate issues come up from any saws that slipped through the cracks, any AS member should know darn well what to do with it at this point. And if they come across a dealer who doesn't know what to do, they need to find another dealer.


Exactly.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> I would think you would share this on all the 562 problem threads as well as the 555. There seems to be at least one thread a week on those with major problems.
> I thought the point of Autotune was to make the saw more simple for the operation of the saw. Why is it such a problem for people to operate it properly?



I thought about this a little....I have to confess I wasn't all that thrilled with the concept for a long time. Partly because of some of my "X-torq" experiences (even though they had NOTHING to do with autotune tech) , but I loved running my 555 so I knew at some point I simply had to dig in to those autotune saws...and when I first started working on them I was quite skeptical.....did a series of video's.. The first one got me a pile of hate mail because I was in fact a little hard on them .. And through the series I learned. Towards the end I warmed up to them and now I can tell you it was worth the effort.
A YouTube "play list" that documents that experience. Actually over a period of time & not for the simple minded, actually gets a little "how to build the damn watch" complex. BUT they do cover a lot of the changes in those models since they were first introduced. Need to do a "condensed" version at some point :

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtw-MqiEnI4FycTP1g2bjRM05YwvrovZm


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## CoreyB (Apr 30, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> I thought it was their reed valve strato, but didn't think it was AT?


The dolmar 6100 is not an Autotune. It is a reed strato. And will cut a ton of wood on one tank of fuel. 
In all honesty autotune doesn't bother me except when even the local dealers will not support or work on them. (Yes poor dealer) the only local dealer that would even order me a 562 to be able to check it out stated it is bought sight unseen, no returns and no warranty work would be done by them. Because they did not and will not support the AT platforms. 
Me I am more about easy starting, great AV , easy to clean and maintain, and no stupid outboard clutch unless under 35cc.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> The dolmar 6100 is not an Autotune. It is a reed strato. And will cut a ton of wood on one tank of fuel.
> In all honesty autotune doesn't bother me except when even the local dealers will not support or work on them. (Yes poor dealer) the only local dealer that would even order me a 562 to be able to check it out stated it is bought sight unseen, no returns and no warranty work would be done by them. Because they did not and will not support the AT platforms.
> .



I get that completely. We have a local dealer who hurt the model. Conversely three hours east of here is a dealer who has just as much pro logging and more than 50 percent of his customers have converted over to the 562's to where the 562 is his best selling model.....and a huge reason why is exactly what you just articulated. As far as Echo's. I would think since this isn't an affluent area, they would do better. Might be a dealer issues as those transcend brands..

AND to expand on that a little...four hours north east of here is a Dolmar dealer that just owns the local saw business so a lot of the success boils down to who's selling and supporting the brand...


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## Idahonative (Apr 30, 2016)

weimedog said:


> What?
> 
> Explain this please. And why would you post this if I'm reading it correctly. What is your definition of win?
> 
> My posting this thread was about 60cc saws generically... the 465 is yet another entry into that price point and market place. Almost sounds like you are defensive to the point of desperation pushing so hard against the 465 and for a 590, interesting as it might be. I don't particularly care which one does best relative the others..and the postings here really don't have that much impact on the overall market place. We talk to each other. That's about it. Fact is all these saws work really well. The 465 is interesting to me... Andy got my attention as now I'm interested in the 590 because of his endorsement. If all I heard was yours....I would simply have ignored it and saw it for what it was.  And the fact you are still here means you are paying attention to ours.... trying to spam it doesn't help your position, conversation does. My bet? The 455/465 & Home owner Stihl's sell more than all the Echo's combined...



You may not understand what I was saying but, trust me, Husky and Stihl know. You guys can talk all you want about how large Husky and Stihl's sales are but I can assure you they have felt the impact of Echo introducing the 590 (& other saws). It's really hard for the average firewood cutter to ignore the 590 while shopping for a new saw when price is a concern. The same could be said for the 490 as well. Not everyone can afford an $800+ saw. In fact, I would guess the majority of firewood cutters are not willing to spend anywhere near that.

And no defensiveness here...heck, I've never even owned a 590. I think you've really taken my comments the wrong way. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I actually like the Husky products. I'm just stubborn and don't like "auto tune" of any flavor. And should Echo introduce an auto tune saw (& more than likely will), check back and you will find me saying the same thing about Echo. That's one of the reasons I have two NIB 600p's (not in my sig) sitting on the shelf as we speak. For $400 each to my door, I couldn't pass them up. And they help to ensure that I don't have to buy an auto tune saw in the 20 or so years that I have left cutting wood (hopefully). Weird? Maybe, but to each their own. Between auto tune and the manufacturers greater and greater transition to Chinese made parts/units, I don't like where the industry is heading. I want to have a little control in what I run. But then again, I'm not the average customer so my opinions really don't mean squat.


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## weimedog (Apr 30, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> You may not understand what I was saying but, trust me, Husky and Stihl know. You guys can talk all you want about how large Husky and Stihl's sales are but I can assure you they have felt the impact of Echo introducing the 590 (& other saws). It's really hard for the average firewood cutter to ignore the 590 while shopping for a new saw when price is a concern. The same could be said for the 490 as well.
> 
> And no defensiveness here...heck, I've never even owned a 590. I think you've really taken my comments the wrong way. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I actually like the Husky products. I'm just stubborn and don't like "auto tune" of any flavor. And should Echo introduce an auto tune saw (& more than likely will), check back and you will find me saying the same thing about Echo. That's one of the reasons I have two NIB 600p's (not in my sig) sitting on the shelf as we speak. For $400 each to my door, I couldn't pass them up. And they help to insure that I don't have to buy an auto tune saw in the 20 or so years I have left cutting wood (hopefully). Weird? Maybe, but to each their own. Between auto tune and the manufacturers greater and greater transition to Chinese made parts/units, I don't like where the industry is heading. I want to have a little control in what I run. But then again, I'm not the average customer so my opinions really don't mean squat.



I certainly agree on two of those points....last one being a little control which is why one of Spike's comments peaked my interest. The other one might seem out of place so I'll keep it to myself. And bottom line is each can vote with their dollars. While not a great champion of the current implementation of autotune, I see potential in the future. I'll let others wonder about the big picture in the marketplace as I neither care nor have a horse in the race. I do know there is enough Husqvarna parts and saws around to keep me busy for my lifetime. I'll stick to building saws from junk piles. The 562 was a PITA in the beginning as I had to learn a whole new set of parameters. Have to say it was worth the effort. And you would hate my Chinese MS660's build from a pile of parts from a few sources .. even has Stihl parts in them.. But I've had fun with them. Like you said to each his own. But they have a lot in common with those simple Echo's.....lemecee.....built across the same pond....simple magnesium case halves....simple carburetor (walbro's on mine) ..and about the same price! I've got a 54mm and 56mm version. Sleepers. Was expecting pyrotechnics for the video's but ended up with bullet proof big simple saws that have made lots of small ones out of big ones this last year....talk about price performance! (Of course they can not be bought and the price of parts doesn't include the time to fit finish and assemble.) And I don't take any of this here in cyber space too seriously. Entertainment and sometimes a place to learn things...

I'm certain eventually Echo's will cross my work bench. Only a matter of time. As I've said several times, to me saws are both necessary and entertainment. Since I have a source of Husqvarna/Jonsered saws and parts, from two places; that is what I work on and with most of the time.


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## CR888 (May 1, 2016)

Very hard to ignore a 590 echo for under $400, in my country they are 1k......and for that reason they simply do not sell. They are a pretty darn good saw but at $1099 here retail, a MS362 or 562xp gets the nod. The echo top handles are fairly popular though being less than half the price of a 201t or 540xp. Those who run the TH's do like them.


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

CR888 said:


> Very hard to ignore a 590 echo for under $400, in my country they are 1k......and for that reason they simply do not sell. They are a pretty darn good saw but at $1099 here retail, a MS362 or 562xp gets the nod. The echo top handles are fairly popular though being less than half the price of a 201t or 540xp. Those who run the TH's do like them.



Folks do what they do for reasons only they completely understand. Since the 555/562 series came out I've always thought the 555 was a better deal for the money. I put my money where my mouth was and bought one...awesome saw. Arguably the best 60cc saw in existence for me. While the 555 still sells nationally my local dealer says he can't give them away but the 562 is his best selling Husqvarna (This isn't Spike60's store) So obviously the price point while important in a given displacement class, it isn't everything. Even with all the teething issues the first 562's had they became a Husqvarna favorite in this part of the country with the pro loggers. In my area 390's , 576's and 562's are the Husqvarna brand saws that are most often used in the pro world. This is even more interesting because this is really Stihl country as there are twice as many Stihl dealers and the Stihl community certainly have used the rumors to brag about their better situations so those stories are a part of the local narrative..."yea....I know a guy who blew up THREE 562's!" Hear it often...but rarely hear "I blew up a 562" though! But even with that narrative, 562's still are gaining popularity. While you may see a Dolmar once in a while, I never see any Echo's other than the few small ones and a few old metal ones. My point is it really is a blend of things that makes these saws sell, not just a spec sheet and price point.

(Those 562xp's have the "It" factor, granted they are really awesome and I've crossed over as well to owning a pair of 562's, My personal all time favorite 60cc saw is my 555)


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## 7sleeper (May 1, 2016)

Over here many pro's are turning their back on the 560/562 class and are buying the 555 instead, simply because they aren't more productive by the end of the day and for them the price increase isn't worth the bling bling.

7


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## blsnelling (May 1, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> I've been told by another member on this site that they will "outcut a 441 all day long" and "cut right with a 461" with a 20" bar.


Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?



Hey it could be the altitude....


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## Idahonative (May 1, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?



Here ya go Brad, I've cut and pasted my post so you can re-read what I said:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*[For the price they can be had at, it makes modding the 600p very attractive (same with the 590). Especially for guys like you who can do a lot of the work themselves. They can be turned into one of the highest performing saws out there. Everytime Mastermind does one, he comments on just how strong they are. I've been told by another member on this site that they will "outcut a 441 all day long" and "cut right with a 461" with a 20" bar. That kind of performance in a 13 lb 4.8 oz. power head, a very reasonably priced, simple, high quality, high performance saw.]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
Maybe you ought to have Randy port a 600p for you so you can see for yourself how it runs against a stock 441 and 461.


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## Chris-PA (May 1, 2016)

weimedog said:


> Hey it could be the altitude....


Probably like the CS490, which stock will cut pretty close to a good 40cc saw, but if you grind on every surface will make a pretty decent 50cc saw.


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

Chris-PA said:


> Probably like the CS490, which stock will cut pretty close to a good 40cc saw, but if you grind on every surface will make a pretty decent 50cc saw.



And after you send that saw out, paying shipping; and have all those surfaces massaged, you could spend less money just buying a good PS-6100 / MS362 / 562XP 60cc saw...


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?



Maybe after you do your thing on one..


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## blsnelling (May 1, 2016)

I have ported a 600. They run very well after mods. However, IMHO, no 60cc saw replaced a good 70cc saw. There's just too much of a leap in the power and torque department. Now, if you're in smaller wood, I can see where it might cut close to the larger saw. However, small wood isn't what the larger saw is for. In 70cc deserving wood, the 600P will never compare. Comparing either saw to a 441C or 461 is just too much of a reach. If you keep this conversation reasonable, and stick to comparing 60cc saws, then yes, they are very comparable in power to other offerings, after mods.


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## CoreyB (May 1, 2016)

Well I know that while the 6100 was selling just over $500 was an excellent deal for a saw that will run right with any other 60cc saw made and in many ways is better. To bad that ship has sailed


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## Franny K (May 1, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Please help me with this. Are you claiming that a 590 or 600 will cut with a 441 and 461?


The claim is "*They can be turned into one of the highest performing saws out there" *
This is for 600p and 590. Reading between the lines seems to me the Echo 620 with it's presumably more advanced cylinder would be tied or best for most potential in the 60cc options. The rest is clearly hear say.


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## Idahonative (May 1, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> I have ported a 600. They run very well after mods. However, IMHO, no 60cc saw replaced a good 70cc saw. There's just too much of a leap in the power and torque department. Now, if you're in smaller wood, I can see where it might cut close to the larger saw. However, small wood isn't what the larger saw is for. In 70cc deserving wood, the 600P will never compare. Comparing either saw to a 441C or 461 is just too much of a reach. If you keep this conversation reasonable, and stick to comparing 60cc saws, then yes, they are very comparable in power to other offerings, after mods.




^^^^^This post confirms everything I said. Notice I said "with a 20 inch bar". Although, I was cutting on some 30+ inch Red Fir last week with my MMWS 600p with a 24" bar buried and it didn't slow down much. Soft wood, yes, but it's impressive how it pulls. I watched your vid a long time ago...it's impressive as well.


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## blsnelling (May 1, 2016)

Put a 28" on them a re-test.


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Well I know that while the 6100 was selling just over $500 was an excellent deal for a saw that will run right with any other 60cc saw made and in many ways is better. To bad that ship has sailed



What do you mean "Too bad that ship has sailed"? You miss the opportunity of buying one?


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## Idahonative (May 1, 2016)

blsnelling said:


> Put a 28" on them a re-test.



Well, I haven't had the chance to do that (yet). But here is a vid of Reed's stock 620p WITH factory limiter caps pulling a 27" bar (not completely buried):


Here's a vid of Reed's 620p with a MM and tune...27" bar (buried):


I know my 620p (MM & tune) CAN NOT hang with my MMWS 600p. So one can only assume the ported 600p will pull a 28" bar just fine...at least in soft wood. But I agree, when you get up into the longer bars, the 60cc (even ported) will struggle against the larger displacement saws.


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## svk (May 1, 2016)

"The MS362 C-M is awesome!"

Someone had to say it


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

ehp ported 562


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

And another...this time MM


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

All I can say is I love that soft wood!


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

A Little harder wood.....


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

And even closer to my world...


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## SawTroll (May 1, 2016)

Franny K said:


> The claim is "*They can be turned into one of the highest performing saws out there" *
> This is for 600p and 590. Reading between the lines seems to me the Echo 620 with it's presumably more advanced cylinder would be tied or best for most potential in the 60cc options. The rest is clearly hear say.



A lot can be done by porting and other mods to (almost) any saw, but that's totally irrelevant to most buyers - as they aren't going to have it done.


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

Problem is it's cool to show video's of saws making cuts but folks will see what they want to. Hard to draw any real conclusions other than the saw runs really well .. or not. Different wood, bar, Chain, Operator all these things cloud a picture. What I got from all the video is these modern 60cc saws have a lot of capability regardless of brand. All of them either put wood in the truck or a smile on the face of those posting those video's. Good stuff.

My 562 this winter.


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

About as real as you can get on YouTube:


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## Idahonative (May 1, 2016)

weimedog said:


> And after you send that saw out, paying shipping; and have all those surfaces massaged, you could spend less money just buying a good PS-6100 / MS362 / 562XP 60cc saw...



Who said it was JUST about money? What makes you think I want one of those saws? If those saws trip your trigger, more power to ya. I've got exactly $725 into my MMWS 600p and it's worth every penny TO ME regardless of what other saw I could have bought for the same money.

I love the simplicity of the Echo's...NO strato or auto tune serves me just fine. Simplicity = reliability & longevity more times than not.


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## Idahonative (May 1, 2016)

weimedog said:


> About as real as you can get on YouTube:




Yep, a well broke in 560 barely out cutting a brand new 620.


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

Idahonative said:


> Who said it was JUST about money? What makes you think I want one of those saws? If those saws trip your trigger, more power to ya. I've got exactly $725 into my MMWS 600p and it's worth every penny TO ME regardless of what other saw I could have bought for the same money.
> 
> I love the simplicity of the Echo's...NO strato or auto tune serves me just fine. Simplicity = reliability & longevity more times than not.



Everything isn't always about you as others are also engaged in the conersation....but that's ok. Like you said what ever trips your trigger. You seem so quick to want to dig in with confrontation. Chill...you have what you like and they are great saws, and you are a great evangelist for them. Guess what. I have what I want as well. Definitly would buy them all over again or in the case of the 562..build it. They are great saws too. Out of curiosity a 6100 will end up in the fold. Also a good saw. Take all that angst and push harder on your modded saw....lol make a video and we will watch...some might even be swayed...all will be entertained. Enjoyed the noodling video .. most impressed by all the noodles piling up and not jamming wadding up in the cover!

( And that little video shows a real simple saw that I have elbow grease and maybe $150 in spank a tweaked by me 562 that I have maybe $400 invested. Combined they have cost me less than $600 total dollars. If I was a jerk pushing the bang per buck issue, I would point out both would probably spank a 590 tweaked or not. But it doesn't matter as that's neither constructive or even relevant for a variety of reasons including one isn't 60cc's. And that's assuming a person can really make that assessment with simple video..but I enjoy them both for different reasons.. Just be thankful, as I am; that we both have saws that we enjoy & do what's required for our respective situations.)


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## Andyshine77 (May 1, 2016)

When ever I make a video comparing saws, I always state "take this video for what it's worth". 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## weimedog (May 1, 2016)

And for the "biased" entry.....


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