# Needed to talk - struck by fatality



## need to talk

Writing this as a warning and a message to anyone in the biz that maybe thinks it can’t happen to them. I have been doing tree-work for over 25 years. Starting with my father at around 12 years old dragging brush, learning about chainsaws, learning to climb, all the ins & outs of the biz. Have seen a few injuries over the years, mostly cuts, scrapes and bruises, taken a few falls myself, skinned up arms and legs, had a friend of mine cut his neck on a kicked back saw off a chain link fence and nearly die. A few others have cut themselves in the legs with a chainsaw in a tree or accidentally gaffed themselves. All of these injuries were accidents and probably avoidable and caused by rushing to get the job done, lack of attention, etc. I always knew that this business was dangerous and have always looked at every job from many different angles always looking for the possibilities of getting either myself or a bystander hurt, or property being damaged and looked for ways to avoid it. If a job was just not cost effective or I just did not feel comfortable doing it I have walked away on more than one occasion. I got out of the business for a while seeking a career change but it draws you back in like some that have left can also feel. I have been slowly building my business up the past few years, getting the proper license and getting the required liability insurance for my area. Workers comp is not required in my area for operations of less than 3 people full time. This is a part –time business for me that I was slowly trying to grow into a full time. After years of being a pick-up truck hack (no offense intended) I wanted to do it the right way. I attended ISA classes, became certified and am able to talk to customers about the whys and what ifs about trees instead of just how much it cost to remove it. I have done many jobs over the years that others have refused to attempt, simply because I knew that my experience would allow the job to be done safely. I have never considered myself over-confident and many have questioned why I would rope rig limbs in trees that they would have simply ‘bombed out’, and my response has always been that ‘I was more comfortable doing it my way.’ Not to say that I refused to listen to others opinions, but if I was responsible for the job, it was going to be done my way always with an eye on safety both for myself and others around me. I would always work mostly alone and hire temporary help for the day as needed. I would always use the same helpers as they and I were familiar with each others work habits. They are more friends than hired help. 
All of this changed after a catastrophic accident a few weeks ago. Without reveling names and other details I can say that a groundman that I hired for the day was killed on a job. We were scheduled to remove 5 trees at a property and had removed the first one without incident. The second tree was to be rigged off a remaining tree that was not being removed due to some landscaping and a sprinkler system located beneath it. After setting my blocks and lowering line, the limb was tied off. I put my undercut in the limb and turned to the groundman to check his position and make sure he was ready for the cut. After a vocal response and eye contact of readiness, I turned back to make my top cut. I made my top cut and like I done a thousand times prior clicked off the saw and turned to watch the piece fall. To my horror the groundman was looking at the ground, as I screamed to look up the branch tip hit the ground and the butt end hit him square on the head. I am unable to put into words the feeling of helplessness that I felt at the moment. I called to the homeowner who was watching the work to call 911 as I came out of the tree. EMS arrived but the injury was catastrophic. He was not wearing a helmet, although they were available, like so many others the excuses of comfort and convenience took precedence. I can’t get into a what-if discussion at this time since there is still an on-going investigation by osha. Police and detectives at the scene ruled it an accident. I carry general liability insurance, which is all that is required in my area; the helper did not carry his own insurance. I can’t comment further on the insurance issue either since I made a claim to my insurance that is still being investigated. He had done this work for many years and was not an inexperienced newbie. The limb was no bigger or smaller than any other that we had cut on the previous tree, or on any othe job that we have done before. This was a simple straightforward removal, that was supposed to earn myself and crew some additional Christmas $$$.
The vision of the accident is burned into my memory and I have gone over the scene many times in my head trying to come up with a reason for this to have been prevented. This is something that I have done countless times before, always stopping and checking the rope and drop area. Eye contact and voice contact with the groundman about the readiness is always done before the final cut is made. I will ask myself forever what was he looking at on the ground that was so consuming to not look up. I have not been able to look at a tree or a chainsaw since this happened. Both are something that I enjoyed for as long as I can remember. Others at the scene have relayed to me that this was an accident, that if he simply were looking up it would not have happened. I still can’t get the idea out of my head that I should have been able to do something. I can’t picture myself at this point ever getting into another tree and asking a groundman ‘are you ready?’ without it happening again. My phone continues to ring with people requesting work and I am putting them off until ‘after the holidays’ as an excuse. I am going to therapy and taking anti-depressive medication mostly as a sleep aid. Beside the loss of interest in the work the stress of the legal ramifications of this accident are also overwhelming. I have made contact with the family members and feel that no feelings of anger or blame exist at this time; just the same question of what was he looking at that we are all unable to grasp. I have had to go to the worksite several times as the investigation continues, every time trying to find an answer to a question that I know can’t be answered. The religious aspect tells us when HE calls and its time to go there are no questions; it is simply time to go. I post this as a new member here and not under my AS name simply to remain anonymous as the investigation continues and would appreciate those of you that are computer savvy enough to figure out who I am to respect this anonymity. In closing I can only say to be careful at your daily task and hug and kiss your loved ones before starting each day. I also ask for your prayers to the family of the victim, and to my own family as we face the future.


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## woodchux

My prayers go out to you and this man's family.

BE SAFE


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## teamtree

*questions?*

this is a very sad story

i had a close call a week ago for one of my part-time guys

we were lucky he did not get hurt or killed

we review all close calls to make sure we learn from what happened

if it was your worksite, why did you not require him to wear a hard hat?

it should me a mandate not a choice for the employee

also, if the limb was tied on to a rope, why did it come crashing down?

who was holding the rope? was it on a friction device?


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## highsiera

Hang in there man.


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## beelsr

man, that's tough.

i feel for you. i just drove 8 hours to be with my mom and grandma. my mom's brother killed himself Friday night.

just know that you'll get through this.


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## daveyclimber

I'm quite saddened by this news, my thoughts are with you and the victims family. I wonder if you could post this in the injury and fatality category as well. It's awful to say this but I would speak with an attorney about this matter as you will most likely have a civil suit brought against you as well as a possible criminal suit for negligence. Keep us updated about this and continue your healing process. Perhaps you could work a deal with another local tree service or sub out the work you may have lined up already


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## Sunrise Guy

need to talk said:


> He was not wearing a helmet, although they were available, like so many others the excuses of comfort and convenience took precedence.



Man, this is a tough one to comment on without appearing callous as hell. I am sorry for you and the fellow who was killed, truly. However, there is no excuse for allowing one of your own workers on your own job to not wear the proper PPE. I am going through some tough times right now with my steady guys who try to ditch their helmets and goggles as soon as I turn around. Just two days ago, I turned around and there was one of my guys twenty feet up an oak standing on two branches coming from the same crotch, sawing away with a pole saw, wearing no harness or lanyard. He was not secured in any shape, way or form.

I do thank you for your post. It has forced me to make a fast, hard decision: Any of my guys who violate my PPE rule will be fired on the spot. No second chance, no exceptions! You may have saved some lives on my end, and I thank you for that. Again, I am sorry for what you have gone through, and sorry for your worker and his family.


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## beelsr

Sunrise Guy said:


> I do thank you for your post. It has forced me to make a fast, hard decision: Any of my guys who violate my PPE rule will be fired on the spot. No second chance, no exceptions! You may have saved some lives on my end, and I thank you for that. Again, I am sorry for what you have gone through, and sorry for your worker and his family.



<consultant hat on>
When you hire new people, do you provide them with a manual? If not, do so. Make them sign a sheet that's in the manual that they've read it. tear it out and file it. for the existing employees, give them updates and have them sign off on that as well.
<consultant hat off>


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## pbtree

What can i say? My thoughts and prayers go to you and the workers, and the families that will have to deal with all of this...

I wish you peace...

Alan


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## Ekka

Truly sad.

We all can sit here and comment on PPE, distractions etc but he would have heard the chainsaw too, the branch cracking etc ...

... I think something happened. Just doesn't add up. 

Condolences for both families, truly sad.


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## arboralliance

*Prayers...*

Prayers for you and your families...

These things happen all the time around the world, we have an average of 10 deaths a year in Australia...

I see near misses every week, de-briefing throughout the day helps...

May you find peace soon brother in trees...


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## JohN Dee

Myself and my father stress safety to *every single* person working with us (On the way to work, while at work, de-brief after work and many more), if we recognize their not switched on or they're just a plain idiot, it's the door for them. 

A few months back we were removing a liquid amber. We were about half way through the removal when we were lowering probably the biggest branch on the tree, then all of a sudden one of our groundy's walked *Straight under the branch we were lowering at a speed*, my father who was working the line hit the breaks on it and ran over to the bloke and ripped him out of the way with heavy force, all while I was also in the tree holding the lowering line (My father had the working end in one hand). After we had finished and we sat down to talk to him about it we found that he was blatantly un-aware of the branch when he walked there. That night we told him his services were no longer needed. 

This story is indeed a very sad one. My condolences to you and the groundsman's family. I hope you get through this rough period and eventually get back in trees.


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## treeseer

Condolences to all concerned. This has to be devastating for a lot of people. 

I hope your attorney will advise you on ways you can restructure your company program so you can get back to work. Buy and read the new ANSI safety standards. Buy the ISA's cd on Tree Worker Safety, http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/Introduction-to-ArboricultureTree-Worker-Safety-CD-P233C0.aspx and go through it with the crew. Your therapist will agree that taking positive action is a whole lot more therapeutic than not.

ISA and TCIA teamed up on this video series:
http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/Basic-Training-for-Ground-Operations-in-Tree-Care-P140C0.aspx

I've seen one fatality, one maiming, and several serious injuries. I could have died a dozen times, mostly due to carelessness, but for the grace of God. As soon as you can, look to the future.


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## PA Plumber

This story pulls at my heart. Condolences to all. As you already know, there is a great support group here.


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## vharrison2

So sorry to hear this news. Stay strong and do all you can for the family. My condolences.


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## BivyLess

Hope things get better.


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## John Paul Sanborn

If you've had any time in the buisness you've had a close call and someone had to ask you WTF were you thinking! 

Sometimes the God Forbid does happen.

I encourage you to send this in to ISA or TCIA for publication, even in it is signed Anon.

May his families loss, and your anguish serve the rest of us is developing a safe work culture.

My addition to the "after action" discussion. Not a kibitz, or fuel for your self flagulations...Whenever possible, the rope man should not be in line with then movement of the load after seperation. This should be part of the "are you ready" check. "Step back th your right a few feet".


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## SteveBullman

sorry to hear about this.
just curious, you said he was in for the day. was he someone you used often, did you know him well?
was he acting out of character at all on the day, through depression or illness or anything?
i was ill for 3 weeks leading up till christmas and kept fighting through it. i'd done a few silly things during that time through simply not being "with it". the monday before christmas i literally felt like an accident waiting to happen, couldnt focus on anything. come 10am and 2 trees in to the job i walked, amd rescheduled for the new year.
you have to be 100% on this job at all times....i wonder if something like that happened in this case


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## Trtd61

My deepest sympathys to you and to your workers family. Truly a tragic accident


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## Old Monkey

I doubt I can say anything that will help. I feel for you. These things take time to get over.


Its good you are talking about it.


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## Stumper

I hurt for you.


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## 046

very sad story! deepest sympathies...

something doesn't add up. aside from he should have been wearing a helmet. why would someone after making eye and verbal contact not be at full attention?


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## bowline

A very sad story,my thoughts go out to the family.


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## Xtra

My condolences.
Bad time of year for something like this to happen. You've taken a good step seeing a therapist. Also consult with a good lawyer and take notes about anything you said or is said to you . . . be prepared for the possible next phase.

2 weeks ago I had my main rope guy (3+ yrs with me) walk around a tree I was deadwooding. The tree was a large oak and I didn't see him on the other side. I let loose a broken branch just as he walked under it swung around and caught him on the head; luckily he was wearing his helmet. I stopped the job and didn't go nuts yelling, but reviewed what just happened. Every other time he has been safe, out of the drop zone, always put a tree between him and any swinging load. He didn't know why he decided to walk so close to the opposite side of the tree. I think the holidays and all there stress had a lot to do with it.

I'll be retelling your story to my crew on Tuesday.
(I just told them about Love Tree Service fatality . . . one of my guys is from that area and it really brought home the reality of our industry to him)


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## l2edneck

I cant begin to imagine what it must feel like.My prayers are with you and his family.I can only tell you that things dont happen for no reason.I believe that the man upstairs has a job for us all.When it you time to go to work for him its time.My thoughts are that he is in a better place and knows that it wasn't your fault.

Try to keep yer head up........

-Nick


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## need to talk

Thank you for the thoughts and prayers. As for the questions, I have asked the same to myself over and over since this accident. Communication was established and an understanding of what was supposed to happen was understood. We were not trying any new technique or procedure. He was holding the rope and in a ready position when I turned my back to finish my cut. This was a person who had done this many times before. I can't answer about his physical or mental condition at the time of the accident, he appeared to be ready to work, we talked about getting ready for Christmas before starting the job, and this was the second tree we were working on. I have not received autopsy reports yet so heart attack, stroke, stick in eye, ect. I just don't know. I know the feeling of complete helpnessless that I felt as I watched that limb fall is something I do not wish on my worst enemy. Not sure if I will ever get an acceptable answer as to why he was looking down. The hard hat issue is another question that will consume me forever also. I have continually asked myself WTF a thousand times over as I keep seeing this over and over. As for many of you that will relay the story to your help, if it does serve the purpose of preventing another accident, then at least I can be satisfied that I was able to help someone else.


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## 911crash

there are no words that i could say to help you understand or rationalize what happened. A comment that was on a earlier post about one accident may save other lives is true. these posts bring to memory about a near accident one of groundies walking in the drop zone as i was chunking out wood, i happen to be snap cutting because of obstacles below and when i finished cutting i was checking the landing zone before i chucked it and the groundie walks right in the area before anyone cold stop him. One of the other guys pulled him aside and pointed up. After i came down i went over to talk to him to make suer he understood his reply was "since he didn't hear the chainsaw running it was safe to enter the area". Its easy to get rushed, doing a job but when a close call or accident happens time doesn't matter you always wish you could go back and do it right. Best wishes for you, and your family.


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## Mkarlson

I feel for you and his family. My best wishes to all involved.


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## Woodie

My condolences to all involved. Know that you'll get throught it, though. You will. You'll get through it by doing just what you're doing: therapy, prayers, and the support of your loved ones.

I'm not a member of your industry...I'm a hobbyist. I normally participate only on the chainsaw forum, but I occasionally lurk here to keep myself on my toes...to remember jsut how dangerous sawing trees can be.

But I am continually amazed by the danger undertaken every day by the members of your profession. God love you for doing it...it's a necessary service and homeowners are lucky to have trained people who CAN do it.

I am also continually amazed by the kind of things I hear people say when they get quotes for removals. "Some tree service said they'd need $X,000 to take that thing down!" I always remind them of the number of fatalities and injuries to the members of your profession, and then politely ask if they have any better ideas for getting it on the ground?

Godspeed to you.


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## Chucky

Even if your groundman had a helmet on, the branch butt still might have killed him. Short of wrapping yourself in 3-foot thick bubble wrap, there's only SO much protection you can wear before you're too constrained by safety measures to perform the job ably.

Safety measures used in arboriculture such as hardhats, chaps, steel-toed boots, chain brakes, 3-point rule climbing, chipper control bars, and many others are still in reality _subjective_ measures that arborists around the world all employ with varying vigillence. Yes, ANSI Z133 safety standards exist, but they are not observed worldwide, they're not perfect, and due to advances in technology, safety is a continuously evolving concept that is never static.

Fifty years from now, I'm sure the standards for safety will be much different from those we have today.

In an imperfect world, there is no such thing as the perfectly safe working environment. Even in Europe and the UK, where safety regulations are the strictest, fatal accidents happen. It is impossible to be completely eliminate risk; you can only mitigate risk.

Freak accidents happen. No one can ever predict WHEN one will happen, if it will EVER happen. Two different tree companies may adhere to roughly the same safety practices, and one may go 20 years without a serious accident, and the other may have two fatalities in 20 years. The difference between them is simply a quirk of odds. One just happens to be luckier than the other.

Of course, companies that don't pay attention to safety will in the long run have more accidents. But the law of probability can be a funny thing. Very unusual things can happen that one would never expect. That's why there's such a thing as a royal flush in poker. 

After reading your story, I'm confident, even though your groundman wasn't wearing a hardhat, what happened was a freak accident -- not an accident waiting to happen. When you had a vocal response and made eye contact of readiness with your groundman, you practiced reasonable care in making sure that limb would be cut safely. That's all you could reasonably do. 

There's nobody at fault here.


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## notahacker

I was truely saddened with the story. I can feel the sorrow. Prayers to you and your friend's family.


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## Baz

*fatality*

My thoughts and prayers go out to you, your family, and the family of the man who died.


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## Sprig

A deep prayer from my family and me to you, your's, and the family of the man lost. No words can express my sorrow at hearing such news.
Stay strong brother.


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## Bermie

My deepest condolences, and prayers are with you all.
Thank you for your courage to post this, the reality check for all of us is invaluable.
God be with you.


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## Jumper

Terrible news. My heartfelt condolences and prayers to all that are hurting from this loss.


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## beowulf343

Very sad. My thoughts and prayers are with all involved in this tragic accident.


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## jab6

*none*

always leave a paper trail...any ppe rules/ company rules- should be on paper. and read and signed by employee.but always remember GOD WILL TAKE YOU WHEN HE WANTS YOU..and theres nothing you can do to stop it.....must have been his time..


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## Magnum783

jab6 said:


> always leave a paper trail...any ppe rules/ company rules- should be on paper. and read and signed by employee.but always remember GOD WILL TAKE YOU WHEN HE WANTS YOU..and theres nothing you can do to stop it.....must have been his time..



He said it very well when he said "God Will take you when he wants." Remember God is control of everything that happens in this world and he was in control then. This was not your fault by no means you did everything you possibly could think to do to prevent this from happening. My prayers will be with you always and I do pray someday you will climb again for I feel this is where your real passion is. Please join us one day again in the trees. Keep your head high you sound like a superb arborist, and a great boss I would be proud to work for you. I have served two tours in Iraq commanded lots of troop some have died you will go the rest of your life wondering why? I do every day, why am I not dead, but I know that God has a plan for me to something special so I pray every day "Lord show me what you have planned." Now go climb again and we will keep praying.
Sincerely 
Jared


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## Manco

For me, reading this post, made me think, There have been a couple of times that post could have been written by me. It's my understanding from experience and conversation with others, it's not IF you'll have a close call or accident, but WHEN you'll have a close call or accident. I always try to leave myself erring on the side of too safe than to be careless. This sounds like it was his time to go. A hard hat may or may not prevented this. A hard hat is by far a safe tool but it's not going to stop everything. It's hard for me to comment on this post. I've backspaced more than once already. Let me just say that I've imagined having to say what you did and I pray that I don't have to. I hope that you realize how many people the world over will think of this and make me/them pause to be more safety conscious. You may have saved someone elses life ALREADY !
In the past I've had two people walk into a work zone in between cuts and during cuts. One was while I was cutting sections of a pecan limb and dropping them from the bucket. Had a small drop zone beside an open car-port. The guy stepped out just as the section was rolling off my finger tips from 40 or so feet up. Screamed as loud as I could and he froze. The piece landed not more than 2 feet from his boots with a thud. He said he forgot because he didn't hear the saw running and was headed to the water cooler to get water. The way he came in was the only way to access where the drop zone was and he was supposed to be protecting the drop-zone from someone or some thing getting in the way !
The second time a guy got in a work zone I was cutting a vertical limb with what I call a slice-cut. I looked down in just enough time to yell "watch-out!" He straightened up and was about to take a step when the limb speared his back pocket of his Levi jeans and ripped it off his butt. The limb speared his back pocket into the dirt and he didn't have a scratch. Just because someone knows you're cutting and knows not to be in the work zone, doesn't mean they won't still get under you. It's hard for people to keep the fear they have before they get a little experience. It was the end of a long day at the end of a long week and he was trying to get the brush up before I got through. Assumed I wasn't going to cut anymore.
I hope you get through this as well as the groundmans family. A prayer will be prayed.


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## 1953greg

*need to talk*

condolences and prayers to all involved. 

just remember, "dont give up, dont ever give up" jimmy v, 1993

no easy answers here. only questions. im sure u have already asked them.

thanks for your post


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## RedlineIt

The very fact you've put it up here...

You know what it will take to get around this.

Deepest Condolences to the family of man who died, and to yourself.



RedlineIt


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## JamesJems

*...need to talk...*

Need to talk? Yeah. I'll bet.

With all the worldly concerns surrounding such a tragic event, lawyers, insurance companies and all that, you've got to remember something: those details will get ironed out eventually, and you'll be left with...you.

Which leads me to the point: you've got to take of yourself. Psychologically, I mean. That process begins with reaching out to a sympathetic community of others who may or may not share your complex feelings. ( I know I don't. I've seen tragedy, but never all tied up in a situation where whatifs and maybeIshouldn't haves)

Even after the lawyers have gone and the papers signed, you'll still be holding on to what's left of your own psychological landscape. None of us here at AS are quaified to walk you through the intricasies of healing your mind. We're tree people.

You've got to reach out to a counselor. This stuff has a way of holding on to parts of our lives tenaciously. Never letting go. It starts with your post, but promise yourself it won't end there. 

Be patient with yourself in this process. This one will take a while. And the hard work is still ahead of you. 

Check in as needed. Stay with us and talk to a counselor about this. 

James


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## Chainsaw_Sally

*... could have been me...*

Wow, when I think of the near-misses some of our crews have had.... I wish they COULD learn from this. <<sigh>> I know I'll be more dilligent. 

Prayers and supportive healing thoughts to you, your crew and this man's family.


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## okietreedude1

Dude, that is rough. 

Keep your head up, things will get better in time.

As for the customers calling wanting work done, if your feeling like your out of the business, let them know youve retired, taken a new career path, something. 

May God lend a soft hand.


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## soutz

Wow. you are a strong person for posting this sad news.Not one tree worker of any experience can say they have never had a near miss.I thank you for posting this and i will be printing out a copy for my guys. reality must be kept in the forfront of our minds, its a potentually dangerous endevour we do.
look after yourself, be kind to yourself.our thoughts as you can see from the postings are with you.


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## gitrdun_climbr

*need to talk*

Terribly sorry this happened to you and your coworker. This is probably easier said then done but try to not beat yourself up over it. There is an implied understanding by all tree workers that this work is inherently dangerous. Thank you for sharing this experience with us all, believe me it will go a long way in refreshing our memories as to just how dangerous this job can be...even when things run smoothly from day to day and everything seems routine we should maintain our safety protocol and stay alert.

Many responses have said it isn't your 'fault'. I don't mean to kick a guy while he's down but I have to be honest with my opinion here: you and he both assumed the risk of working a helmetless groundsman. Maybe the helmet would have saved him and maybe not but they tend to go a long way.

One of my close calls was dropping my one day old 200T from 40 feet and missing my helmetless boss by three or four feet. My single action biner holding it to the lanyard popped open at just the right time as I went to lower the saw to my side and away she went. By the time my yell made it down the bar was plunging into the brush next to him...and for those two seconds I felt incredibly helpless. It was sheer luck that I didn't end up in the same position you are in now. Needless to say I girth hitch that lanyard to my saws now! 

I know you've learned from it and I hope you can stay in the game. I wish you all the best in getting through this.


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## need to talk

Just a note to say thanks again to all that have responded to this thread, your thoughts and prayers are all being heard and appreciated. I am seeing both mental and legal counsel and trying to regain the confidence that I need to get back into the field. I know that getting back into the field will take complete concentration in both my heart and head, and getting them in sync right now is a struggle. Every day is a small step toward moving forward, each one filled with questions that can't be answered, but understanding that there is a purpose to all of this, and that I do not have to agree with the plan, but I will have to learn and deal with it. Again I thank those that read and passed this thread on to work crews with the hope that they can also learn from it. Be careful.


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## toscottm

*Need to Talk: Comment & Advice*

Need to Talk:

You are undoubtedly a very concerned individual and are suffering from feelings of guilt and remorse. These are quite reasonable feelings in consideration of the experience you have had.

Please know that most certainly this is not intended to sound cold, cruel, mean or disrespectful to the deceased or yourself, however it is suggested that you review carefully your 'need to talk' with divulging details of the incident and your feelings publicly on this web site. While you have not disclosed your name, etc., 'two and two' could be put together by those familiar with the case to thus recognize who you are.

You are encouraged to speak to your lawyer and therapist. They are bound to confidentiality. We can all appreciate what you are going through and personally I admire you in many respects. Professionally however, I recommend you talk only to your lawyer and therapist. Be sure to let your lawyer know that you have posted these messages. They can then determine a strategy of potential 'damage control' with respect to any litigation that may arise from the incident.

It is undoubtedly difficult following a circumstance like this to bear the emotional struggle within. Seeking support from others most certainly can provide a sense of assurance and some relief. However, it is important that you do not jeopardize your position with unintended yet implied admissions of responsibility. Doing so may be a breach of conditions within your insurance protection. Certainly seek the help you need to get through this difficult experience, however do so from providers who must keep any 'confessions' in their confidence.

Best wishes in your healing, full respect to the deceased and sypathies to the family.

Scott


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## Fireaxman

Dear “Need to Talk” - I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I would like to share my experience. I was the only witness and care giver in the sudden accidental death of my own dearly loved Dad, in a boating accident in a remote marsh in Southeast Louisiana. 

You can “What If …” yourself into a deep, dangerous depression thinking about the things you could have done, might have done to prevent the accident. At that point you will make yourself totally useless to the victim, yourself, your family, and society in general, and you will still be completely powerless to change the past.

I got some very good advice from St. Paul that continues to reassure me and give me direction. Philippians 4: 4-9, and particularly verse 8. 

You will always remember the things you wish you had done, and the things you wish the deceased had done. But do not set your mind on these things. That will only make you feel guilty, resentful, powerless, and helpless. Instead, set your mind on the present and the future, those things you have some influence over. You have gained a very valuable experience at the ultimate price. Use it. Share it. But do not let it defeat you. Set your mind on excellence, and continue to pursue it.

You have my Love and Prayers.


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## PowersTree

It could be any one of us at any moment. We all work in a dangerous field.

My deepest sorrow to all involved.


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## GLM

Well put Fireaxman, my heart goes out to everybody involed as well. Jon


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## grandpatractor

My deepest sympathies for you and his family. You are in my prayers.
This is dangerous work and we all need to remember that.


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## Blinky

Sometimes an accident is just an accident, a coalescing of circumstances.

I can't imagine how you feel but I know you have to keep moving, no matter how hard it may be. You still have a family to care for, don't let your grief overwhelm you. In time, you'll find some peace.

I wish you well.


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## arboralliance

*Beautifully put Fireaxman!!*



Fireaxman said:


> Dear “Need to Talk” - I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I would like to share my experience. I was the only witness and care giver in the sudden accidental death of my own dearly loved Dad, in a boating accident in a remote marsh in Southeast Louisiana.
> 
> You can “What If …” yourself into a deep, dangerous depression thinking about the things you could have done, might have done to prevent the accident. At that point you will make yourself totally useless to the victim, yourself, your family, and society in general, and you will still be completely powerless to change the past.
> 
> I got some very good advice from St. Paul that continues to reassure me and give me direction. Philippians 4: 4-9, and particularly verse 8.
> 
> You will always remember the things you wish you had done, and the things you wish the deceased had done. But do not set your mind on these things. That will only make you feel guilty, resentful, powerless, and helpless. Instead, set your mind on the present and the future, those things you have some influence over. You have gained a very valuable experience at the ultimate price. Use it. Share it. But do not let it defeat you. Set your mind on excellence, and continue to pursue it.
> 
> You have my Love and Prayers.



Amen...


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## Kneejerk Bombas

It's my opinion that you have nothing to feel guilty about. Perhaps you could have encouraged him to wear the helmet, but ultimately, it was his decision not to. He made the choice. He knew the risks.
An analogy might be a passenger in your car not wearing a seatbelt.
Our work is dangerous, that's why the pay is comparatively high. Again, he made the choice to do take this job. He knew the risks.
I hope this thread has been therapeutic for you, it made a lot of folks think about the way we do things. You sound like a good guy that just had a bad accident. Don't beat yourself up. 
You still have a long row to hoe, getting some psychiatric help might be a real good idea about now.


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## ProfessorPlum

I apologize for the interruption of what is a very important and touching thread for everyone to read, but I cannot recommend strongly enough that this thread be deleted by the moderators to protect 'need to talk' from the ramifications of a public statement made regarding an ongoing investigation.

The details of this incident are already available elsewhere on this page, and this page comes up on a web search regarding the incident. A person who works with the homeowner already posted in the other thread.

If any kind of legal battle is going to ensue, comments made by 'need to talk' in his grief will be very damaging in the hands of opposing counsel.

Again, I apologize for being seemingly callous in a very heartfelt thread, but this thread could really damage him.


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## JayD

*Need To Talk*

Hi,
I was away when thread was first posted on AS,I can understand your feelings on this accident,and I'm definitely not going to preach to you about it,all I'm going to say is there's time to grieve,there's a time to recover,and there's a time to stand up regardless how hard it is,and not let it occupy your every thought I'm not saying forget about it but this was a accident no ones fault really,dont let this destroy you and those around you.
My thoughts and prayers for all that was involved in this unfortunate accident.


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## Tree Machine

*need to talk*

I am so very sorry, also, for the unfortunate situation. As many have stated, close calls and accidents do happen as part of our profession. Most of us get a 'learning experience' maybe a bump, a cut, or a whopping scar.

But only a few of us are unfortunate enough to have an injury resulting in a fatality on the jobsite. For all of us, you have shared the horror of it and heightened the overall awareness of safety on the jobsite.


A few weeks ago a former apprentice was doing a climb for my firewood guys (I was on vacation). I can't piece the incident together as I have only heard it from the one side, the guy who was struck with the limb and knocked through a wooden fence. I did see the $3,000 medical bill for the MRI, X-Rays and meds, and it was a first-hand recount, but I have yet to hear about it from the climber.

I know it affected the climber deeply, but it was just a close call.

Need to talk, The pain you're experiencing and sharing with us is felt by all. There is no way to go back and change three critical seconds. However, it is beyond common sense that you have to be responsible for your own personal safety. In fact, it is an industry standard and it stated emphatically, page 1 of the 2006 ANSI Z-133.1 standard of _Safety Requirements for Arboricultural Operations_, and it reads:

1.4 *Responsibility of the Employee*
Each person (employee or otherwise) *shall* be responsible for his or her own safety while on the jobsite and shall comply with the appropriate federal or state occupational safety and health standards and all rules, regulations, and orders that are applicable to his or her own actions and conduct.

Yes, you have a responsibility toward your workers, however their safety is their responsibility. As a team, we are all looking out for each other, but ultimately we must _each be responsible for our own behaviors and conduct _while on the jobsite. YOUR personal safety is not someone else's duty, nor is theirs yours. I risk being overly blunt in the face of this unfortunate tragedy, but I am just relaying the rules written by our industry, for our industry.


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## Timberhauler

As a business owner,and as a human being this really brings up a grim reminder of what can happen.Either we don't like to think about or fall into the trap of thinking that it only happens to everyone else.My wife is a sheriff's deputy,and her job is one of the higher risk jobs in the department,I on the other hand have been climbing trees for fifteen years and now have two other climbers working for me,and three ground guys.Both of know that when we leave this house in the morning,there is a good chance of one,or God forbid,both of us not making it back home.Both of us have had extremely close calls in our line of work,I even posted one of the stories in another thread,and even though I was able to walk away from that event,I still have bad dreams about it today.And it was ten years ago...My wife has had several close calls of her own,a couple was from plain carelessness and not following procedure,but a couple she was doing everything right and things went wrong.Each of these events in our lives have not only brought us closer together as a couple,but has changed the way we look at things,do things and live our lives...In the event of such a traumatic event,I guess it's human nature to sit and think "What could I have done different?","Or if I had only done this it wouldn't have happened"...It goes on and on,and no doubt this will be with you for the rest of your life.I am of the belief that for whatever reason,it was HIS time to go,and there is nothing you could have done about it.Perhaps you could have prevented that particular accident,but God called that boy home that day...Unfortunately OSHA,and everyone else involved does not see it that way.I would definately seek legal help if you already have not.I would also tell you to do your best to move on with your life,but that's easier said than done,I know.Everyone involved here will be in my thoughts and prayers,and I'm going to print this out and let everyone at our next safety meeting share it.Good luck,and I hope everything turns out in your favor.
Paul


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## Yellowdog

It can happen to anyone at any time, safety standards in place or not. Some disasters are freak accidents tough many accidents can be avoided. I feel for everyone involved.


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## JayD

Hi Need To Talk,
Hi ya buddy,just to let you know were thinking about you,chin up.
All the Best.


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## Soul Assassin

I needed to read that as a lesson, thank you, I've been too overconfident recently....I'm sorry it happened. IMHO, wasn't your fault, when your time is up, that's it. Just my opinion though. I know that prob doesn't help, but I will learn from this poignant post.


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## spongygumz

*Safety*

You know what's funny about safety? NOTHIN'!!
I feel for,not only you,but the family of the victim.Unfortunately,in our business,a person cannot be 100% safe 100% of the time.We don't take chances,we take calculated risks.I advise not only you,but everyone reading this,to get each climber a referee's whistle and use it as a safety device.Trust me,you can hear one over a saw and chipper.I have been in the tree care industry for almost 30 yrs,and have always promoted awareness on the jobsite.The best thing we can learn from an accident,is how to avoid the same thing from happening to the next guy.Just this past Nov a year ago,a fellow arborist went through his own chipper.Perhaps you heard about it.It was just a few miles South of my hometown,Ft. Collins,CO in Loveland.The guy had well over 40 yrs exp,and yet made a fatal mistake and got chewed up by his own chipper.The odds? 1 in 200,000.The freaky part is that I bid on the same job.So you never know.Don't beat yourself up over it.And the "what ifs,how come and why mes?" will continue to haunt you until you decide that you did the best you could.


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## ropensaddle

*whistle*

I too have one I cant stand yelling headake no more gets
my throat sore. This topic hurts me too; everyone i know in the biz,
has had a close call or two and thats the ones practicing safety! I
have had numerous safety awards and close calls as well.

Its usually when doing the impossible ,my prayers are with you!
Hurts to see a brother in pain dont beat yourself up on this ,it is
everyones responsibility for safety; not just the one making cut.

When you feel better get back on the horse that bucked you
you are not a failure you are a man with moral fiber and by sharing
the message eyes do open!

The helper is up there and wants you to recover ,the healer is
with him and discussing your road, and I know your going to take
that road bumps and all because he has told me.


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## need to talk

Just another note of thanks to all those that have sent prayers and thoughts. While being theraputic for me I can also be satisfied that this experience may be used as a training tool to educate those in the business about the dangers involved. My sincerest thanks to all.


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## Tree Machine

need to talk said:


> While being theraputic for me I can also be satisfied that this experience may be used as a training tool to educate those in the business about the dangers involved.


You've given us that. We feel your pain. And as fellow tree men, our awareness and seriousness has been heightened. 

Hang in there, friend. All accidents, tree-related or otherwise, generally happen in a flash. None of us are exempt. In your case, your ground worker, had he been one step to the left, or to the right of where he was would have resulted in a close call. It was a result of being in the wrong place in that fraction of an instant in time, that being characteristic of just about any 'accident'. Regardless of the people or the circumstances, that's what accidents are.

Going back to work with this heavy weight upon your shoulders, the thought of it even, is probably agonizing beyond description. But you must feed your family. As hard as it is to grasp, you are a wiser man because of this and I'm confident nothing like this is likely to ever happen to you again. You'll see to that.


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## JayD

Hi,
I know this happened a while back , But I was just sitting here wondering how you are? . I sincerly hope you are coping and going forward.
All The Best


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## Burvol

I am so sorry you had to witness such a horrific accident. My prayers are with you and the fallen groundsman's soul and his family. My biological father was killed in a freak timber cutting accident when I was a kid, and my mom re-married another logger. I have had the fear and safety issuses in my head since I was seven. My biological father's partner has never been the same, watching him get killed and having to leave his body to go find help on the radio.... I know kinda how you feel. Don't let it beat you up too much. If the guy was not a NEWBIE THAN HE SHOULD HAVE HAD A HELMET ON!!!! You are not at fault. Still, I am so sorry for all of you, it really stings.


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