# Bucking ? for the pro's



## lostone (Aug 8, 2004)

OK, I'm sure this is a simple answer for the pro's. But I have yet to grasp the smart answer to this one. The only tree's I cut on are already dropped by the forestry dept. here and its only for fire wood (they drop them if they have beetles or if the tree has something wrong with it) anyway, when the tree is laying down flat on the ground and you go to buck it up you have to worry about hitting the ground with your chain if you go all the way through, so my question is what do the pro's do in this situation? dig under the log to complete the cut making the log into section's that can be roled? I would image that this would not be a way that would be done by an arborist as there having to deal with someones yard. And in the situation that I am asking we arent having to deal with a yard, just the forest floor. I sure hope I have explained this situation better than the last question I asked, LOL.


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## matthias (Aug 8, 2004)

I'm not a pro but I use a wedge and get down on my knees to make sure I don't hit the dirt.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 8, 2004)

Use a wedge.


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## glens (Aug 8, 2004)

Wedge(s), cant hook (or peavey), and practice, practice, practice.


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## Ryan Willock (Aug 8, 2004)

Well Brian has pretty much already said all there is to say. I usually feather my way through the cut untill I'm about half way through the bark then go on to the next cut.


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## lostone (Aug 8, 2004)

Thanks for the info all, I guess it's go slow and watch what you are doing.


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## rmihalek (Aug 9, 2004)

I was in the exact same situation as you; primarily bucking felled logs for firewood. You definitely need to use a plastic wedge for this job. Tap the wedge in when your bar is about 1/2 the way through the cut and then again when your bar is about 7/8ths through the cut. Sometimes this is enough to pop the cut open as there may only be a bit of wood and bark holding the pieces together. If it doesn't; at least opening the kerf a bit will give you a good view as to how much wood there is to cut. 

Last year, I found an old peavey hook at an abandoned cabin and now use it all the time like RJS said; cut most of the way through, roll log, finish all cuts going up with the top of the bar cutting. 

Also, bring an extra sharpened chain or two with you. If you hit something, forget about "field sharpening" the chain, take it off, clean the clutch housing out, install new chain, fill tanks, clean air filter and keep cutting. Sharpen all your chains at home on a dedicated grinder.


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## glens (Aug 9, 2004)

While I agree almost entirely with that last post, I have to say it really depends on how much or badly you've "hit" something.&nbsp; 9 times out of 10, at least, it's just as quick (or quicker) to touch up the chain with a file as it is to exchange it.

Glen


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## rumination (Aug 9, 2004)

I learned to file on a grinder. A few months ago I decided to learn hand filing. Now I get my chains sharper, and they last longer, too. Don't expect to get it overnight though. My first few hand filed chains were probably duller than when I started them.


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## JimL (Aug 9, 2004)

When I cut something on the ground I just start sawing, get half way through, throw a wedge in the cut and keep going then with the saw tip down i push the bottom of the tip into that last little bit of wood a couple times to get it all.. I ususally dont cut the bark.

its all about doing it a bunch and getting good at it.....


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## rmihalek (Aug 9, 2004)

Been filing by hand since 1980-81 Rocky and never got very good at it. Some people have the patience, some don't. I don't, you do.
I'll sharpen my chains at home and bring a few with me to the field. You do it your way.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 9, 2004)

When it gets dull, I file it.

Tha Cliff's Notes.


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## Al Smith (Aug 9, 2004)

*Chain filing*

I agree with the pros.I buy about 2 dozen files a year.The first time I hit the dirt,I touch up the chain.Even if I don't,every second tank of fuel,sooner,if it is not cutting properly.It only takes a few minutes,perhaps time to chill out.


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## rumination (Aug 9, 2004)

One trick I learned a few months ago: cut into the log, set your wedge, and then continue cutting almost all the way through, and stop. Bang the wedge all the way into the log, and as long as it isn't too long, it will rise up above the ground a tiny bit. Not much, but enough to increase your chances of not grounding the saw. That's probably old hat for most of you guys, but I was pretty happy when I figured it out.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rumination _
> *cut into the log, set your wedge, and then continue cutting almost all the way through, and stop. Bang the wedge all the way into the log, and as long as it isn't too long, it will rise up above the ground a tiny bit. *



_NUFF SAID!!!_


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## pecker (Aug 12, 2004)

Ok. I'm no pro, but what happens when the chain gets dirt? Why is it so important to prop the logs up so the saw doesn't get into the dirt? 

Thanks.


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## Crofter (Aug 12, 2004)

To be seen cutting with a Dirty chain is a dead giveaway that you are either a newbie or a troll!


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## pecker (Aug 12, 2004)

I agree. But what does it do to the chain or saw?


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## pecker (Aug 12, 2004)

When bucking a log with the saw (log lying on the ground), if you happen to get the chain into some dirt and you cut the bottom of the log, can dirt cause the chain to stop altogether?

Of course, I know the dirt is not good for the chain and can dull it, etc. But will dirt make the chain stop?


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## rmihalek (Aug 13, 2004)

Well, you've got a few horsepower pulling the chain around the bar, so it's pretty unlikely that you could get enough dirt into the bar groove to actually stop the chain. The real problem is that dirt is very abrasive and, acting in concert with the bar oil, will just grind down all metal surfaces, plug up the groove and increase chain tension, creating a great deal of heat. 

My earlier suggestion at swapping the chain for a new one and cleaning the saw is best for those times when you hit dirt/rocks. I agree with Glens and Rocky that if an object in the wood nicks a cutter or two, a quick touch-up with a file may be quicker than swapping chains.


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## treemite (Aug 13, 2004)

I didn't catch what type of trees you are cutting, but when bucking a conifer watch the chips coming from your saw(also watch your tip) when they change color you know that you're getting to the bark usually from white to orangish brown on a ponderosa.


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## pecker (Aug 13, 2004)

Thank you for the info. Also, I've been cutting Pine (Louisiana). Its about a month old now. Just didn't have time to get out there and finish the hauling.

Anyhow, the reason I asked about the possibility of dirt actually stopping the chain, is because that is exactly what has happened to me several times now.

The story: I'm no pro, but I do run a lawn service and from time to time, I have to do storm clean-up etc. Never needed more than my 10 year old Poulan 16" homeowner saw.

So about a month ago, I decided to take several Pines out of my yard. Bought a brand new Stihl MS390. Dropped the trees and they laid there for several weeks. 

So last week, I get time to start sawing and hauling. About half a tank full, and suddenly, right in the middle of my cut (full throttle) the chain comes to a sudden dead stop. So, I'm pissed off of course, but I figure I should just take the saw to the shop and let them worry about it since its under warranty. The guy takes the chain off and cleans the bar, gets the end sprocket freed, and I'm off, happy. 

Next day same exact thing happens again. This time I get to go to the back and talk to the mechanic. He's never heard of this. Asks how old is the wood, etc. (I'm thinking, age of the wood has nothing to do with this, because I've sawed up old logs many, many times with my junk Poulan and this has never happened). Anyhow, he fixes it, I go home, start sawing again. What do ya know! 5 minutes of sawing and the same thing happens. 

Once again, back to the shop. Finally, after lots of interrogation, he asks if I got the saw in any dirt. "Well, yeah once in a while I run into a little becaues the logs are lying on the ground. The saw kicks up a quick cloud, no big deal. . ." He says, oh no, ANY dirt that gets in this thing is going to do this. . .The he and the other mechanic swear up and down that this is a NoNo. I told them I've done this for years in normal use with my junk homeowner Poulan and it has never even bogged down from it. . .just tore up the chain. . .They go on to say, well yer just gonna have to keep it out of the dirt. Prop up the logs or do whatever you have to do, but keep the chain out of the dirt. 

So I finished the rest of my work (on the same old logs that are the same age as the ones that I had trouble with, didn't hit and dirt, and the saw now works great. 

My question is: Have you ever heard of a little dirt stopping a chainsaw????????? Are they feeding me crap. . .did I buy a junk saw or are they telling me like it is???

Thanks in advance.


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## Newfie (Aug 13, 2004)

Keep your chain out of the dirt!! Practicing that will certainly help you keep more in tune with what the he!! is actually going on and may save you from pinching the bar or having it kick back and bite you. Doing stupid stuff and getting away with it so far doesn't mean it's the right way to do it.


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## Crofter (Aug 14, 2004)

It is not dirt that is stopping the saw but after you have hit dirt, your saw is dull. Not maybe! It is no longer fully sharp and as such it will need to be forced into the wood. It will cut much finer and powdery chips that such up the bar oil and the heat produced bakes the wood dust and pitch into the bar groove and especially the area around the sprocket nose. This causes more friction and more heat and you are in a vicious circle that was started the second you hit the dirt and took the edge off your cutters. It is only the edge that does the cutting; the rest of the cutter merely wedges and guides the severed wood. There is no such thing as being a little bit dull. You also should have your saw sharpened so that you do not have to push any more than the saws weight since forcing the bar against the chain also creates heat. You may be bogging out the cluch in addition.


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## pecker (Aug 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Newfie _
> *\ Doing stupid stuff and getting away with it so far doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. *



Thanks for the adivce. The last thing I ever want to so is put my self in a position to get hurt. I read the owner's manual and took it to heart. But obviously it didn't tell me everything I need to know. However, trying my best to cut a log that is 80 feet long and lying on the ground in an indention that is left several inches deep shouldn't count as being stupid. As I said in my original post, I'm not a pro. Just looking for some answers.


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## pecker (Aug 14, 2004)

Crofter, thank you. That makes alot of sense. I'm learning alot as I go along, especially from the friendly folks here in Arborsite. 


Ok. . . getting the chain in dirt is bad for the chain, the saw, etc. 

But have any of you guys actually had dirt STOP your chain?


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## Crofter (Aug 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pecker _
> *Crofter, thank you. That makes alot of sense. I'm learning alot as I go along, especially from the friendly folks here in Arborsite.
> 
> 
> ...





"But have any of you guys actually had dirt STOP your chain? " 

NO! 

Woodpeckers have hard heads!

You don't seem to be listening: Re read my previous post.


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## pecker (Aug 14, 2004)

Did you previous post say this?



> _Originally posted by Crofter _
> *
> NO!
> *



I think I just wasn't asking the right question.


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## wiley_p (Aug 14, 2004)

i used to use this trick when cutting firewood in hiugh school, It only works well on smaller diameter logs (18") cut a notch in one end, stick the plate of your handyman jack in there crank it up some, stick a peice if wood under the end and presto another 10-12 cuts are off the ground, after that you can usually roll the log easy with a peavy, or repeat the process again.


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## Crofter (Aug 14, 2004)

Pecker, Yes i said "NO" to the question "Did any of you guys actually have DIRT stop your chain" Below is a post about cutting dirt. It is a bit crusty, but rather sums it up.

RockyJSquirrel
Arboristsite MVP

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 3423
Grateful is absolutely right. That is exactly why I didn't recommend any brand, because no saw will perform well for someone who cannot run or maintain it. The improper mix thing is a biggie, most neighbors of mine have a different can of mix for every different two-cycle they own and I doubt 20% are mixed properly.

It takes a reasonably adept person about a year of steady saw use to get half decent. Until then, they grind the saw into the dirt on almost every cut and couldn't tell you if it was dull or not. Took me 2 or 3 lil crappy Poulans before I learned how to file a chain, then I started paying more attention to what I was doing.

So anyway, when someone asks "What brand of saw should I buy, I never owned one before", there really isn't an acceptable answer. I think the closest I can come up with now is a simple "It doesn't matter, they all cut flesh".

Good luck Mr. new saw owner. 


__________________
Chaos, panic, and disorder -- my work here is done.

Sarcasm is just one more service we offer.


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## pecker (Aug 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Crofter _
> *Pecker, Yes i said "NO" to the question "Did any of you guys actually have DIRT stop your chain" Below is a post about cutting dirt. It is a bit crusty, but rather sums it up.
> 
> RockyJSquirrel
> ...



That is the truth! I do think I bought the right saw. Now, if I could buy a few years experience I'd be all set. I appreciate the help.


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## pecker (Aug 14, 2004)

Wiley, that's kind of what I ended up doing but I was using about a 5" diameter log next to a 20" log and then prying up the 20" log with the smaller one as a pivot point. Pain in the butt way to do it though. What's a handyman jack?


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## Newfie (Aug 14, 2004)

*"However, trying my best to cut a log that is 80 feet long and lying on the ground in an indention that is left several inches deep shouldn't count as being stupid"* 

Let me rephrase. I didn't mean to call you stupid, that wasn't the intention. However if you are going to stick your chain in the dirt on every cut for 80 feet of tree, that is stupid. Try to slow down, let the saw cut. Don't rush and observe as you go. Cut the 80 foot stem into 4 or 5 managable pieces that you can roll by yourself. make all your cuts on those logs almost all the way through and then roll each log to finish the cuts. voila!!, your chances of sticking the chain in the dirt are greatly reduced.

Get a plastic wedge or two, because if you are having trouble sticking the chain in the dirt, you are inevitably have trouble discerning when the saw kerf is gonna pinch closed on the bar and keep your saw.


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## glens (Aug 14, 2004)

Invest in some plastic wedges and a peavey or cant hook.&nbsp; You shouldn't be firewooding with neither.


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## pecker (Aug 14, 2004)

Newfie, no offense taken. 

On that 80 footer, my approach actually was to cut it into sections that I could handle. The dirt problem arose mostly near the base of the tree(s) where it had left an indention in the soil as it fell. In other words, the log was kind of like this. . .bear with me

000
000000
00000000
000000
------------------
000



Except, imagine that the log were round shaped as they are (my graphic turned out a little disproportionate. . .you'll have to use your imagination). 

As you can see (hopefully), there is a point at which it would be difficult to keep the saw out of the dirt on such a cut (for an inexperienced sawyer like myself at least).

I like the wedge idea. Thanks for the info. Its destined to help. I'd like to get some practice using a wedge. Where would I buy one? Any recommended brand? Place to buy online?

Thanks again.


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## MasterBlaster (Aug 14, 2004)

Pecker, where you iz in La?

I'm in Aleck...


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## NeTree (Aug 15, 2004)

You can get plastic wedges- which is the only acceptable material for anything exceot splitting, by the way- from any store that sells logging supplies. Get at least two.

Since you're not experienced at felling yet, have a peek at this thread...


http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16149


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## Crofter (Aug 15, 2004)

If the log has been on the ground for a while, the dirt will be embedded in the bark. Even if you lift it or roll it over you will have to chop the bark off with the axe, in a band across the path the chain will take. I just finished cutting up the sleeper pieces from under a semi load of firewood. Takes extra time for sure, but you can spend it cleaning the wood or else repairing the bar and chain!


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## pecker (Aug 15, 2004)

MasterB, I'm about 2 hours north of ya in the twin cities.


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## husky runner (Aug 24, 2004)

*cutting dirt*

If you keep hitting the dirt under the tree on the ground while cutting fire wood everyone knows to avoid this take the entire length of the bar and plunge cut a trench under the log and take the dirt out with a shovel and then you wont hit dirt on the ground


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## Chainsaw_Maniac (Sep 19, 2004)

Everything has already been said, but the bottom line is, no matter what you should never deliberatly hit the ground with the running saw *ever*. To avaid this there's...

The wedge method (explained by others). Hammer the wedge with a piece of wood or a hammer. If the wedge is being damaged by hammering you didn't get a good wedge.

The cut half way the roll over the log method (explained by others) Use a cant hook, peavy, just a crow bar or a strong stick or by hand. You should be able to roll over a log by hand if you try. But get a cant hook. If you can't roll it maybe you can roll half of it if you use another method to cut it in half.

My all time favorite......skid the tree onto a pile of wood that you've already cut and just keep making it higher and higher. Problem with this is you need a skidder or a tractor or a logging winch. And you have to watch your balance cutting up there. But it makes for really productive cutting if you are well equiped and you have a lot of trees close by, such as in an area that's been logged with only the tops left over.

Place a piece of wood beside the log and lift it onto it so that one side of the log is sticking up for easy cutting. This works nice with small diamiter wood. But don't take your back out. (I gotta have those disclaimers for some reason.  I dunno why. I don't wanna sound like a know-it-all).

Lift the whole log up with the forks of a loader tractor or skidsteer if you have one. That works nice if I have a huge pile of logs that have been delivered to me.

If I do have to make a cut where I think you might hit the ground than I put my hand under it to feel for rocks and if there is at least an inch of space between the log and the ground. Most trees will have places like this because most trees are perfectly staraight and neither is the ground. You've got to look for these spots.

There wont be any spots though (maybe) if you falled the tree onto muddy ground or if you left the tree and it settled into the ground leaving no suck spaces.

If all other possibilities are exaused you can cut the tree 95% through, being *very* careful not to hit the ground. Then use a steel splitting wedge and a sledge hammer to break the reaming wood in half. You really should try and cut with the saw like you would with a plastic wedge do to the damger of hitting a steel wedge which will destroy the chain and possible injure you with flying metal, but if you want to try that at your own risk and be extra careful doing it then go for it.

If it's too hard then you can always just leave it right where it is and let it rot. A few pieces of wood aren't worth ruining a chain over. (I guess in most peoples situations it isn't out in a forest where nobody will see it though).

If the wood is *very* dirty you might want to switch from chisel chain (square corner, super fast cutting if sharp) to semi-chisel chain (Cutters have a rounded corner. It's fast cutting if sharp, but not as fast as chisel. It is more resistant to getting dull if you hit mud and dirt. It's easiert o get semi-chisel sharpened by hand for a novice sharpener). Still no reason to cut into the ground though. A rock or a nail will ruin it.

There. I told you all my secrets.

Another thing is in certain situation maybe you should cut the tree up after falling it rather than leaving it so that it settles in the dirt and when you lift it or roll it over there's dirt sticking to it and all that yucky stuff.

pecker: 

(Nice name by the way)

If you have that problem with the chain stopping again them remove the bar and chain and clean out the bar grove with whatever tool you have or can buy that will fit in there. I use an old dinner fork. You might as well always clean out the oil hole while you're in there.

Roll the sprocket with your finger. If it doesn't roll it's siezed up and that's pretty unusual. (Unless the chain brake came on without you noticing, so check that). Examine it for string or whatever might have gotten wrapped around there.

Roll the sprocket nose of the bar with your finger. If it wont go them examine it for string or dirt in there. Then force it to go by rolling it over a piece of wood (aggressivly).

If you ahve to take your saw into a mechanic because the chain has been stopped and wont go around than it's wierd. I bet my way will fix it though, if it ever happens to you again.


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## Van (Sep 19, 2004)

Everybody keep your chain out of the dirt! And watch your pecker too!!!!


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 19, 2004)

Great post, Hermann.


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## pecker (Sep 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chainsaw_Maniac _
> *
> 
> Roll the sprocket with your finger. If it doesn't roll it's siezed up and that's pretty unusual. (Unless the chain brake came on without you noticing, so check that). Examine it for string or whatever might have gotten wrapped around there.
> ...



Chainsaw Maniac, 
Thank you for the insight. This was exaclty what happened several times. The mechanic fixed the problem the exact way you described. 

The good news is that when I wised up and stopped hitting dirt, the saw works flawlessly. 

Thanks again.


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## pecker (Sep 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Van _
> *Everybody keep your chain out of the dirt! And watch your pecker too!!!! *



That's hilarious! Its good to see someone with a sense of humor once in a while. You would've believe how much fun my name has brought through the years.


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## FSburt (Nov 11, 2004)

Well been reading the replies about bucking on flat ground. Here's what I do when the ground is soil is soft and easy moved. I use the top 1/4 of the bar and saw from the side across the log which causes the chain to force the chips down into the soil and gouge out a small channel and fill it with saw chips so the if the cutter hits anything it will be wood chips instead of dirt. This does not work on rock or any area that is hard. It also takes alot of practice to judge how much tip to commit without going to deep and dirting the chain. when I am bucking over ground I cannot do this I usually look for a section that i can see underneath or just cut till I see bark dust and stop. I am bucking precommercial thinning slash into 8 ft lengths for piling with a dozer.


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## BewtifulTreeMan (Nov 16, 2004)

pecker, I had a similar problem when my 390 was new, after i bought it, i checked the chain tension and started cutting away, bout half hour later, the chain wouldn't budge. there was all kinds of crap in the bar groove. the bar tip was really difficult to move. so i cleaned it out, lubed it up real good, havent had that problem since. 

my 390 was a pain in the ass when it was new, but now its a pleasure to operate!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 16, 2004)

Look for intermittent ground contact and capitialize on it, cut to portions not touching ground, setting parts that are setting on ground as helpful pivots to make next cut easier.

If laying flat on ground, cut so that remaining holding wood is narrow and longer, rather than shorter and wider at the uncut, remaining/holding wood (cut in from sides, to reduce ressitant fiber to straight in line and width of the wedge), schedule this so that the wedge force is as far from this point as possible for more leverage.

Now you can sometimes get the base to lift out of ground, or outrightly split (as mentioned, giving less risk to cutting contaminated wood) from the increased focused force of the wedge from the maximizing strategy.

:alien:


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## Erick (Nov 17, 2004)

Hey all this is my first post on this site and it seemed like the right time to chime in. I use the jack method someone else said earlier. I have and old bumper jack that I've welded a piece of steel too. I make a horizontal cut in the end of the log, insert the jack, crank it up, and put a log under the trunk. Good to go for a few more logs. Its cheap and easy to use just the way I like it.  Just make sure you don't use it on a hill or the jack will roll with the tree.


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## Crofter (Nov 17, 2004)

Hi Erick;
Where there is a will, there is a way. Whatever it takes the main thing is to realize that you can't cut dirt with a chainsaw if you also want it to cut wood! not even a little bit. That is the thing that gives the casual owner so much trouble; not knowing or accepting that you should not cut with anything but an absolutely sharp chain. I guess the importance of sharpening is brushed by in the instruction manuals lest it scare off prospective users. Sharpening too often could waste a bit of chain, but it is by far the lesser evil than not sharpening enough!


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## Al Smith (Nov 17, 2004)

*Spare the file,spoil the chain*

If ye olde chain is not pulling big chips,stop and see why.Running a dull chain,will only round the cutting edge of the cutter,and put strain on the saw,as well as the user.Remember,a sharp tool ,is a happy tool.


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## Erick (Nov 17, 2004)

It takes alot less time and effort and removes alot less chain if you sharpen your chain before it gets "dull". Cant remember who said it but I also touch up the chain after every other tank of fuel. Its alot easier on me and the saw. I keep a file in my pocket any time I have a saw in my hand. If you do hit something stop and file even if you dont think its dulled the chain. It only takes a few minutes and a sharp chain will get you the time back pretty quick. My advise is learn to file, but if not, change the chain when it STARTS to dull and pay someone else to sharpen it later. A sharp chain is easier and safer for the opperator and easier on the saw as well.


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## Al Smith (Nov 17, 2004)

*second tank*

That was me,Erick.That is just my own "rule of thumb",which I have used for over 30 yrs.Everyone has a method,just so it works,is the main thing.Some use a file guide,some don't.I know one guy who places the saw in front of him,and files both sides at once.Darned if he doesn't get them sharper than me.The key to it all,is the timely use of the file.


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