# Semantics and Technicalities



## Nickrosis (May 19, 2002)

This will be a thread I'll add to a lot for a long time...perhaps forever, but this is something that I believe is important.

I try to use accurate words and will go to great lengths to correct misuse, if I catch it. For anyone else with this same idiosyncracy, pitch in. For the rest of you, put up with me!

*Questionable Word or Phrase*
Bleeding
*Suggested Replacement*
Sap Flow
*Reasoning*
Trees don't have blood so how can they bleed? Dr. Alex Shigo brought this up over Spring Break, and I agree with him. We love personification as a society, but we need to be careful with trees.

*Questionable Word or Phrase*
Root Flair
*Suggested Replacement*
Trunk Flare
*Reasoning*
1. Flare means to spread. Flair means to have a special interest.
2. The roots don't flare - you're still looking at the trunk.

This is my personal claim to fame. If I'm not known for any of the piddly things I do the rest of my life, I want to be known for the fact that I pointed this out to the world. Wait a minute....this is the most piddly thing I've done in my life....

Anyways, I made the effort to stop the printing of our newsletter over this because I believe change will only start if you change yourself and your own sphere of influence. Therefore, I corrected all references to "root flair" because it's misleading and wrong.

*Questionable Word or Phrase*
Healing
*Suggested Replacement*
Sealing
*Reasoning*
This is not my idea, but I subscribe to it whole-heartedly. I've spent the last 5 months of my life working this out of my vocabulary, and I still struggle with it. Trees don't _heal_; they _seal_ because that's their very nature as compartmentalizing organisms. Their tissue is not made whole again after injury - it decays and is walled off from the rest of the tree because that's all a tree can do - and it is very effective at it.

Nickrosis


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## DDM (May 19, 2002)

Ummmmmm okay


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## Stumper (May 19, 2002)

Okay Nick. I agree with choosing proper terminology. Incidentally, Are you suffering from tissue necrosis, or have you sealed off the spider bite?


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## Nickrosis (May 20, 2002)

I suffer from necrosis of the cranium - very serious. Imagine telling your children that a Band-Aid will _seal_ not heal!

Nickrosis


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## Stumper (May 20, 2002)

Just remember to 'compartmentalize' the children when they become teenagers and let them out at adulthood.LOL 
I'm sure that you(like myself) were an exceptional teen causing only emotions of joy and pride for your parents.


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## geofore (May 20, 2002)

Gee, and I thought it was a crainial rectal inversion. For us it maybe sap flow but to most others it is bleeding ( I still say bleeding ). You need to run this through the universial translator and see how it translates into other languages. I know they are changing the terminology in the mountian climbing and rescue industry to translate better in launguages other than English. Visit a mountian climbing web site and you'll see what I mean, look for assenders and decenders.
Some of this stuff is hilarious in the traslation.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 20, 2002)

Nick, you want to add "sucker" to your list?


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## Stumper (May 20, 2002)

Nick does not appear to be a sucker. However, considering his youth and background, he might qualify as a watersprout. TFIC


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## Tom Dunlap (May 20, 2002)

Good thread Nick!

Two summers ago the bursa on my left knee inflamed and I had to have surgery to remove it. While the incision was mending I had to wear a walking splint to keep me from bending the knee too much. My clients would ask me about the setup and I found myself stumbling over my words when I would tell them that I had to wear the brace until the wound seal...er... healed. I got a chuckle out of it every time. When I would tell my arbo buddies and still stumble over the words, they would always laugh 

Here's a couple more for you to research: hitch and knot, bend and bight, line and rope, cable and brace.

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 20, 2002)

Trim/prune

Vigor/vitality I think the white coats should reverse that one since we green shirts use vigor all the time. I find it clumsy to say "reduce the vitality, or increase the vitality, the branch has a lot of vitality.  

I sorta agree with the flair part, but it is a transitional zone, I want people to think about roots when I'm talking, and after. But then we dont want it covered up do we.


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## Nickrosis (May 21, 2002)

Thanks for the suggestions - they're all worth looking into, but I'm a little short for e-mail time. They (the school) have me tucked away in central Wisconsin for summer camp, and I'm only writing this because I ran out for a short time.  

Tom, it's interesting in languages and in arboriculture how multiple words mean the same thing, sometimes with only a subtle twist in meaning, sometimes exactly the same meaning. I would be interested in getting into the words that you mentioned. Do you have any thoughts on them already?

As geofore mentioned, translations could get interesting - your examples didn't seem too strange - what website were you referring to?

Ascender:
Chinese - rise
French - ascending

Descender:
German - short length
French - downward

If I don't reply soon, it's because there is still no Internet in central Wisconsin.  

Nickrosis


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## Nickrosis (Oct 5, 2002)

*Questionable Word or Phrase*
Feeder roots
*Suggested Replacement*
Fine roots
*Reasoning*
Pithy Points: #583. You can feed the tree system, but not trees.
In 100 Tree Myths, Dr. Shigo gets into more detail, but I'll try to summarize.

"Food" in trees refers to sugars which are not gathered by roots. Sugars are manufactured by leaves. Water and minerals are absorbed by the roots (fine roots, root hairs). I am ignoring hormones, acids, etc. for the sake of simplification.

Nickrosis


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## FBerkel (Oct 5, 2002)

Block and pulley; estimate and proposal; fertilize and feed.

Idea for an alternate thread: euphemisms. E.G., "remove tree" means "kill" it. (customers don't tend to appreciate that one).


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 5, 2002)

<B>Questionable Word or Phrase</B>
Remove tree
<B>Suggested Replacement</B>
Trim the tree with extreme prejudice.


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## Stumper (Oct 5, 2002)

M&M=Hard shelled, chocolate covered nut.


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## Stumper (Oct 5, 2002)

A300 uses a term that I think we all understand but which I dislike because it is inaccurate: 'Raise'. I say/write 'prune for vertical clearance'. I am NOT committing myself to picking up the whole tree!
I don't much care for the proposed "drop crotch pruning" either. "Reduce/cut to laterals" doesn't sound as crude and either choice of terminology has to be explained/defined for the client anyway.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 5, 2002)

I prefer 'root flare' over 'trunk flare' because it requires less explanation to the customer. I don't believe that calling it a 'root flare' is misleading, it is understood that we are referring to the lower trunk. It is simply the flare in the trunk to accommodate the transition to the root system.

When you talk about a 'car wash', no one thinks you are talking about a car that comes and does your wash for you. With your reasoning, branch collars should also be called trunk collars.


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## TREETX (Oct 5, 2002)

You have some great point here. One that is missed is that the terminology will differ when talking to an arbo as opposed to a customer. Then we will be lifting, healing, looking at vigor, and root flare. I agree about drop crotching trees with "flair".

Ever notice that in America, people don't die, they pass away? In other english speaking countries, you die and when you go to a bathroom, it is a room with a tub in it. Lets fix the whole language.

If your arm gets cut off, the tissue is not going to be replaced, so it seals right?? I think sealing refers to containing some void.

Keep them coming, I had a good laugh.

When I remove all hackberries or Az ash, am I merely taking them away for "political re-education"?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 5, 2002)

> I think sealing refers to containing some void.



Well, the defect is always present, and may become a void in the future. If we trim a limb properly, it is not coming back either.

so healing is the mending of a wound where new tissue is introduced into the deffect.

sealing is where new material is introduced around the wound regain optimal suport, or reestablish uniform stress and Mattheck puts it.

The big deal here is to educate the client that trees do not heal. those little nicks they make with the lawnmower and weedwhacker are a real problem. Large wounds can become future deffect that can cause increased risk of failure.....


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## Nickrosis (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *little nicks*



 Do you care to define that?  

Nickrosis


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## Toddppm (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FBerkel _
> *Idea for an alternate thread: euphemisms. E.G., "remove tree" means "kill" it. (customers don't tend to appreciate that one). *



Why do people always ask when would be the best time to do this work? What? It's a removal, does the tree sleep in the winter and we can sneak up on it so it won't feel the pain of being cut down?


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## TREETX (Oct 7, 2002)

The questions I commonly get together are "How much will it cost to remove the tree and when is a good time to do it?" 

My answer - It will cost $800 and a good time to do it is when you have $800.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 8, 2002)

My thought overall with this thread was not to mandate or dictate what people should be using but to suggest a standardization that everyone can come to a level of agreement on. Matt suggested that I be careful to not come across in a do-this-or-die type attitude. Man, that's not what I want to be saying to my friends!

I say "Suggested Replacement" because I am very open to other suggestions. No one is saying that what is in print is automatically true, although some seem to believe that.

JPS....care to post your biner/krab preference?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 8, 2002)

Climbing I like the Kong pear with the grenade gate. Like how they sit on the saddle and are easy to open. 

Could also be that is what I've used most often too.

I like mongoose for rigging.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 9, 2002)

I was referring to your use of the word "krab" over "biner." I read your mention of that, but I'd like to know your reasoning for disliking the word "biner."

Nickrosis


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## Nickrosis (Oct 9, 2002)

*I'm studying for an exam; I'm not very focused.*

For discussion....

I was not familiar with the phrase "apical control" until tonight. I knew what apical dominance was, but it wasn't until I looked up apical control that I realized there is a difference. This is what I read:



> Morris G. Cline
> http://rycomusa.com/aspp2000/public/P40/0084.html
> There has been some confusion in the use of the terms "apical dominance" and "apical control." In the strict sense, apical dominance is the control exerted by the shoot apex over the outgrowth of lateral buds lower on the shoot. In 1967, Brown suggested in woody plants that apical dominance should only be applied to the current year's twig growth. He introduced the term "apical control" to describe the influence of apical portions of a tree crown over perennial branching and general tree form. This term has been widely accepted and employed with considerable latitude for woody species. Apical control refers generally to the suppression of one elongating branch by a higher more vigorously growing branch. In contrast, apical dominance is concerned primarily whether or not an inhibited lateral bud (under the influence of the growing shoot apex) will begin to grow out. Both terms refer to correlative phenomena involving signals operating over long distances to suppress branch growth, the latter, at a very early stage and the former, at a later stage.


Is this the accepted view? Does anyone know of a differing view on these two phrases?

Nickrosis


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## Stumper (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds good to me Nick. Related terminology that distinguishes between related but distinct phenomena.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 9, 2002)

One being a loacl event the other system wide.


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## NickfromWI (Oct 14, 2002)

Message from Tom Dunlap....
Here's a couple more for you to research: hitch and knot, bend and bight, line and rope, cable and bracing.

This is what I know about some of these things.
A knot is a general term describing (almost) all formations of interlocked rope. 
A hitch is a type of knot. It is used to attach the end or the middle of the rope to another part of rope (blakes hitch) or to a post or stick or some sort (clove hitch). Note that hitches are reliant on the object that it is being tied to to maintain it's form. If you tie a tautline hitch around the rope, then slide the rope all the way through, the hitch will fall apart.
A bend is a knot used to join two end of a line together (double fishermens, ring bend aka- water knot, sheet bend) Bends are often used by tree climbers to make a prussik loop for secured foot lock.
A bight is simply a fold in the rope. If you take an end of rope, fold it back so that it is running alongside the standing end of the rope, that folded part is called a bight. We often use this to tie a chainsaw to the middle of the rope...put a long bight of rope through the handle, tie a couple half hitches in it- and voila!

This is one of my favorite topics to talk about- let me know if there are any other questions!

love
nick

ps- some say "if you can't tie good knots, tie lots of them." I say- "if you can't tie good knots, learn good knots!"


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 15, 2002)

What's a granny knot?


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## NickfromWI (Oct 15, 2002)

*granny knot*

Mike- A granny knot is the evil half twin of the square knot. For the square knot, they say "right over left, left over right." If you were to tie it right over left, right over left, you end up with the granny knot. Tie them both and compare, you will notice the square knot to have a cleaner more symmetrical appearance. Granny knot is notorious for slipping loose. I say don't use it.

love
nick


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 15, 2002)

Ok.
How about a clock hitch? Can it be tied with only one wrap around the tree?


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## Froggy (Oct 15, 2002)

*Reply*

Here's a question. If we do come to one word terminology. Is someone going to put a book out so we all can get the right terminology?? Just curious??


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## Stumper (Oct 15, 2002)

Mike I am shocked by your picture-I never imagined that you would look so much like Nick in drag. 
In keeping with posting guidelines I will now say something thread related: NickfromWI do you understand the difference between a reef and a thief in knot terminology? Do you use either in arboriculture?


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## NickfromWI (Oct 16, 2002)

*Reef Knot = Square Knot*

Stumper- first of all- how do you know what I look like in drag?!!?

-here's what I know about the reef knot. Reef is the name that sailors (and some others, as well) use for the square knot. I prefer the name square knot, and it seems that the people I mingle with do as well. The reef not, thief knot, grief knot, thief knot.....they are all so similar. The differences are subtle and really not important for the arborist. If you'd like to know more, click here

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/reefknot.html

They have good explanations of these. Honestly, I can't think of many instances where I use the square knot (which is the only of these knots that I consider useful) while up in the tree. 

hope this is to your satisfaction. 

love
nick


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 16, 2002)

*Re: Reef Knot = Square Knot*



> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *Stumper- first of all- how do you know what I look like in drag?!!?
> 
> love
> nick *



I believe Stumper was referring to the original Nick(rosis).


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 17, 2002)

Nick Wi, he was talking about the shot of nickrosis in drag I found. Don't worry I'm sure you look good in drag too.

http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=51672

How about the clock hitch question?


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## Stumper (Oct 17, 2002)

I was indeed referring to Nickrosis in drag/Mike's pic. As far as the reef and thief knots the reef has both tag ends exiting on the same side of their repective standing lines the thief on opposite sides (a slightly weaker construction) the thief was devised as a 'telltale' to allow a sailor to know if someone had been in his kit. (Presumably the thief would err and retie using the standard reef knot.) Neither one are suitable arborist knots. It amazes me that the reef/square knot is just about the only knot that most people know other tha a granny and the half hitch. It's surprising because the reef knot has very few legitimate uses!


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## NickfromWI (Oct 17, 2002)

*clock hitch*

Hey gentlemen (and ladies, apparently)

I gotta tell you that i'm not familiar with the clock hitch. Does it go by any other names? Could someone describe it to me, or maybe tell me a website i could see it at.

love
nick

ps- i DO look good in drag


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *I'd like to know your reasoning for disliking the word "biner."*



Nick, Say your out working with Jesus, or Julio. You drop your "konnector" without realizing it. Then you say "Where'd that darned biener go?" 

Could that be mis interpereted?


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## Nickrosis (Oct 17, 2002)

Well, I use Spanish when I'm working with Julio and Jesus. 

Nickrosis


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## Stumper (Oct 17, 2002)

JPS, Suppose your out working with Bob or Bill who happens to be especially grouchy today and you drop you connecter and say "Where did that darn krab go? Could this be misinterpreted?


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## Nickrosis (Oct 18, 2002)

Perhaps "hinging metal attachment device" would be the best way to express what you're trying to say. How does that sound?

Nickrosis


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 18, 2002)

How about saying "BINER" while pointing at a biner. I don't attempt to speak spanish, since I live in America and our language is ENGLISH! If JPS wants to talk about his crabs, it doesn't bother me. But if Julio doesn't understand "biner", then he probably won't understand 'krab' and probably shouldn't be under me while I'm in a tree. If I cannot communicate with a groundie, I certainly don't want him near my gear or lifeline!


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## Stumper (Oct 18, 2002)

Before krabs the brits called 'em "snap links". 
Self closing, positive locking, forged metal, multi-use, load rated, connecting devices. AArrrghh!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 18, 2002)

But what if Julio is not an immigrant, but has a family that goes back 20 generations. He is new to the job and standing behind you as you mutter to yourself under the tree.

We MUST be careful to avoid hurting anyones feeling gentlefolk.

What if I'm just trying to be intentionaly difficult?


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## TREETX (Oct 18, 2002)

Of course you are trying to be difficult. A large percentage of the users here are self employed which by nature makes them difficult.

165 - I think the fear was that the south of the border guys would understand biner aka beaner.

I do not speak spanish but here 90% of climbers are spanish speaking and 99% of the labor speaks spanish. Why fight it? I do know how to get my points across. Know the words for rope, tree, saw, lunch and es todo bueno. Chingadera is the best word for biner - it just means thing-a-ma-jig. If you need more spanish to keep them working, get new guys.

I have worked with white guys here who speak spanish by saying "rakey uppie" and "lunchie". LMAO!

where are my spics, oh, I mean spikes. Careful


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 18, 2002)

> I have worked with white guys here who speak spanish by saying "rakey uppie" and "lunchie". LMAO



I understand that works with oriental crews to 

descanso!


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## xander9727 (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *ps- some say "if you can't tie good knots, tie lots of them." I say- "if you can't tie good knots, learn good knots!" *



There are two types of people in this world,

Those that can tie knots.....and those that can tie not! 

For the latter, if you can't tie knots,..... tie lots!

Seriously, If someone doesn't know and understand knot tying I won't allow you to tend/handle my ropes or lines. I always take the time to teach new employees proper knots. It saves me from stressing about safety and wasting time trying to pick a granny knot out of the middle of a bull line.


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## Froggy (Oct 24, 2002)

*Reply*

I have to jump in on this knot thing. If a person dosen't know how to tie a knot. They should just stay home. I wouldn't care to teach them if they have never done it, but I'm not going to trust them with my safety or the owners safety untile I see they can do it and do it right. Also I want them to know simple knots to make my life easy when they send me something up in a tree.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 24, 2002)

the flair thing, I'm starting to say the basal flair; since it is a transition zone between the root and trucnk area.

My personal feelongs are that the entire thing should be exposed so that the first order roots are showing, this allows the tree to develop a good butress sysetem if it is allowed to live that long.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 6, 2004)

*Questionable Word or Phrase*
Trimming
*Suggested Replacement*
Pruning
*Reasoning*
Barbers trim. Landscapers shear in the name of trimming. Budget comptrollers trim. Legislators trim. Diet pills trim. Even Trimspa supposedly trims. Scissors trim. Moustaches get trimmed. Sails are trimmed. Airplanes are trimmed. You trim your apartment.

Pruning. The word distinguishes what we do as arborists _for _trees versus what others do _to_ things. Pruning carries with it a sense of purpose in the work we do, not simply shaving off "excess" foliage.



> trim ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trm)
> v. trimmed, trim·ming, trims
> v. tr.
> To make neat or tidy by clipping, smoothing, or pruning: trimmed his moustache.
> ...


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 6, 2004)

In my persona lexicon trim is removal of material where the growth habits and structure of the plant are not being taken into concideration. e.g. ROW trimming and structural clearance to an arbitrary hight.

Pune is to remove material taking the plants "needs" into concideration. 

this way if the crew understands the vocabulary, if you say trim for 5 ft of roo clrarance, they know what to do. If you sar trim for house clearance then they know to work in a minimalistic manner that will eliminate friction and give a few years of "growth clearance" . eg shortening the "divers" on a limb and pruning to direct growth up and out on small branch tips.

Some times we over parse the language we use, i've read arguments infavor of removing "limb" from usage, because that is anthropomorfic...


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## xander9727 (Apr 6, 2004)

Nick,
You may have a little excess time on your hands.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 7, 2004)

If limb is taken away then we'll have to come up with another term to let our groundies know that the butts of the limbs get stacke on the curb.

Tom


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## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xander9727 _
> *Nick,
> You may have a little excess time on your hands. *


I just get faster at doing things.


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## Nickrosis (May 30, 2004)

Callus and Woundwood are not interchangeable.

Consider this from: http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/YGLNews/YGLN-Aug0101.html
Yard & Garden Line News
"Cracks and Splits in Tree Trunks"
Patrick Weicherding, Extension Educator - Horticulture, Anoka County


> Dr. Robert Miller, Professor of Urban Forestry at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point, may have the answer. For more than a decade Dr. Miller has been teaching a course titled "Tree Structure and Function" where students learn about trees by dissecting them. Dr. Miller and his students have dissected hundreds of trees with frost cracks, and they are always able to follow the crack into an internal defect where the problem originated. The defects they observed were many, but generally fell into three categories: trunk injuries, broken or torn branches and flush pruning wounds, all of which had been covered over with new wood.
> 
> Here's Dr. Miller's explanation: "As these kinds of injuries close over with woundwood, the callus tissue making the woundwood fuses together and seals over the injury. However, areas of structural weakness typically form where the woundwood joins together over the injury, and at the edges of the original wound, especially if the woundwood rolls over the edge of the wound. Years may pass until all evidence of the injury is buried under new wood. But as the tree warms by day and cools by night, physical stresses start the process of splitting the wood from weak areas at the original injury towards the surface. Slowly the crack works its way to the surface until finally on a cold night the tree splits open."


Consider this from: http://extension.usu.edu/files/natrpubs/ff004.pdf
Utah Forest Facts
"Pruning Landscape Trees: An Overview"
Mike Kuhns, State Extension Forester


> Wound Closure — Natural target cuts start to seal over
> quickly as woundwood, sometimes called callus, forms at
> the wound edges (callus forms first and becomes
> woundwood as it matures and becomes woody).
> ...


From ANSI A300:


> 4.6 *callus*: Undifferentiated tissue formed by the cambium layer around a wound.
> 4.55 *woundwood*: Partially differentiated tissue responsible for closing wounds. Woundwood develops from callus associated with wounds.


After a wound is created, trees respond by forming a thin layer of callus that soon turns into woundwood. You can't see callus with the naked eye - you see woundwood.


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## a_lopa (May 31, 2004)

i wanted under my buisness name "removal and surgery'' instead of pruning,my signwriter said no one will know what your getting at with surgery,i tend to agree its a shame thou.i agree with most of your changes nick but root flare is rootflare id leave that one be


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 31, 2004)

From ANSI A300:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.6 callus: Undifferentiated tissue formed by the cambium layer around a wound. 
4.55 woundwood: Partially differentiated tissue responsible for closing wounds. Woundwood develops from callus associated with wounds. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nick,
This needs more explaination.
Undifferentiated tissue means it's not different from the normal tissue. Why can't you see normal tissue?
What is the difference in woundwood tissue?


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## Guy Meilleur (May 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> * Undifferentiated tissue means it's not different from the normal tissue.
> *I don't think so, Mike. "differentiated - exhibiting biological specialization; adapted during development to a specific function or environment" As I (dimly) understand it, normal cambium tissue is differentiated toward the specific function of dividing into bark and wood. Callus tissue is not adapted to a specific function, it just deeps growing more, not differentiating.
> 
> *What is the difference in woundwood tissue? *


Woundwood is partially adapted to the specific function of developing woody tissues. That's my nutshell recall of Botany 400 from 20+ years ago, I'm open to better clarification.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 31, 2004)

Thanks Guy, that's as clear as mud.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 31, 2004)

Callus has three characteristics. 

1. Callus - cells are all the same size and shape.

2. Callus - has very little lignin.

3. Callus - is meristematic. What this means is that it can divide and differentiate to form any and all parts of a tree. It can form roots, it can form buds and it can form sprouts. 

Callus starts after a wound.

As the tissues become lignified,

as they begin to have different shapes,

as they no longer are meristematic,

Now,

That which was once called callus,

is no longer callus, and is, and should be, called, woundwood.


Stolen blatantly from :
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/boonites/callus/


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## Guy Meilleur (May 31, 2004)

Thanks Mike; it's always clearer when you use a better resource than the top of your (my) head:alien: 

The application of all this I think supports my previous thought that removing a very thin layer of callus in rare circumstances may be justifiable, but removing a thick layer is always bad for the tree because it may be differentiating woundwood and hence more important.

I'll get a pic next time I see a reason to slice off a little callus. It may be a while.


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## Nickrosis (Jun 1, 2004)

But saying you're slicing off callus is a nigh-impossible since callus is but a micron across.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 1, 2004)

So callus is undifferentiated, meristematic and one micron thick. Sure sounds like cambium to me.
So the question now becomes: what is the difference between callus and cambium?
Is callus just cambium that forms at an injury?


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## Nickrosis (Nov 12, 2004)

*Questionable Word or Phrase*
Vigor and Vitality
*Suggested Replacement*
No replacement, just clarification
*Reasoning*
These words are commonly confused, and I'm bringing this thread back after popular demand.

Vigor is genetic. You cannot influence the vigor of a tree once it has sprouted. Vigor is best thought of as capacity - what the tree "has in it" to achieve. With poor genetics, you're starting out 100 yards from the rest of the back. With strong genetics, you can take a lot of lumps before losing the race is a possibility.

Vitality is what we can control. A tree that is not dying back from a lack of soil space or soil oxygen or soil moisture is going to be healthy in terms of its vitality. So by controlling the conditions the tree is growing under, we can avoid having the tree's vitality take a hit.


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## spacemule (Nov 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *Questionable Word or Phrase
> Vigor and Vitality
> Suggested Replacement
> ...


Main Entry: vig·or
Pronunciation: 'vi-g&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French vigor, from Latin, from vigEre to be vigorous
1 : active bodily or mental strength or force
2 : active healthy well-balanced growth especially of plants
3 : intensity of action or effect : FORCE
4 : effective legal status

Webster's doesn't seem to quite match your definition. Seems, according to them, you've got your terms reversed.



Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

One entry found for vitality.
Main Entry: vi·tal·i·ty
Pronunciation: vI-'ta-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 a : the peculiarity distinguishing the living from the nonliving b : capacity to live and develop; also : physical or mental vigor especially when highly developed
2 a : power of enduring b : lively and animated character


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## Nickrosis (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by spacemule _
> *
> Webster's doesn't seem to quite match your definition. Seems, according to them, you've got your terms reversed.*


How so? Or do you just want to disagree.


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## spacemule (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *How so? Or do you just want to disagree.  *


Ok, you say that vigor is genetic and cannot be influenced once the tree has sprouted. Definition 1 of vigor applies to humans, so we must then use definition two, which is "2 : active healthy well-balanced growth especially of plants." Postive, active, healthy growth of plants is most certainly affected by us and is in no way limited to genetics. Your definition further says that vigor is "best thought of as capacity." Take a look at definition 1b for vitality: "b : capacity to live and develop,"--a definition coinciding with your definition of vigor. You say that "vitality is what we can control," but in your defintion for vigor you stated that we cannot affect capacity to live and grow, which Merriam-Websters defines vitality as being.<p> As far as dissagreeing, I really don't care enough to dissagree for the sake of dissagreeing. However, the whole point of this thread is to give accurate definitions, which doesn't appear to be what you gave. I have to ask, do you consult a dictionary before you give us definitions, or are these merely your feelings on the terms?


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 14, 2004)

This from a draft form of an arb dictionary:

"vigor—overall health; capacity to grow and resist stress 

vitality—overall health; a plant’s ability to deal effectively with stress

So should we change this to:

"vigor—overall health; capacity to grow and adapt and resist stress 

vitality— a plant’s innate ability to grow and adapt to stress"

or something different?

While we're at it, I proposed changing this:

"stress—factor that negatively affects the health of a tree"

to agree more with human medicine, and Shigo as I read him:

"strain—extreme stress that is damaging
stress—factor that stimulates a response [Stress is an essential fact of life, and often positive.]

Whadya think?


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 14, 2004)

This from a draft form of an arb dictionary:

"vigor—overall health; capacity to grow and resist stress 

vitality—overall health; a plant’s ability to deal effectively with stress

So should we change this to:

"vigor—overall health; capacity to grow and adapt and resist stress 

vitality— a plant’s innate ability to grow and adapt to stress"

or something different?

While we're at it, I proposed changing this:

"stress—factor that negatively affects the health of a tree"

to agree more with human medicine, and Shigo as I read him:

"strain—extreme stress that is damaging
stress—factor that stimulates a response [Stress is an essential fact of life, and often positive.]

Whadya think?


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 14, 2004)

This from a draft form of an arb dictionary:

"vigor—overall health; capacity to grow and resist stress 

vitality—overall health; a plant’s ability to deal effectively with stress

So should we change this to:

"vigor—overall health; capacity to grow and adapt and resist stress 

vitality— a plant’s innate ability to grow and adapt to stress"

or something different?

While we're at it, I proposed changing this:

"stress—factor that negatively affects the health of a tree"

to agree more with human medicine, and Shigo as I read him:

"strain—extreme stress that is damaging
stress—factor that stimulates a response [Stress is an essential fact of life, and often positive.]

Whadya think?


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## spacemule (Nov 14, 2004)

Well, there you go.  A definition carries more weight when you cite your sources, eh? I find it interesting that these two terms are defined so differently. I wonder what the Oxford dictionary says. At any rate, I don't routinely use either of them, so, it really doesn't matter. lol BTW Nick, I apologize for sounding like a jerk last night--I was in a poor mood. Later.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 14, 2004)

So according to the Tree Dictionary, I had it exactly backwards. 

I use "vigor" a lot; never use "vitality", and wonder about the necessity to separate the two. After all, the genetic material is always subject to some change too...

But now that i think of it, when JFK said "vigor", it sounded like we should be calling up something innate.

What about stress and strain?


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## Nickrosis (Nov 14, 2004)

No harm done! Netree and Rocky have built up my heat shields on this site.

I'm not citing references since they are quite widespread in their use in an arboricultural context. If you're into using those terms.....

Stress and strain? You have to follow the format of the thread! Errr....wait. It's not really conducive to comparing. I'll think about it, though!


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## glens (Nov 14, 2004)

If you guys want to quibble, all you've got to do is ask!

A note from one of the two best and easiest-accessible online dictionary definitions (http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=vigor, http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=vitality):
<blockquote>Note: Vigor and its derivatives commonly imply active strength, or the power of action and exertion, in distinction from passive strength, or strength to endure.</blockquote>In point of fact, there seems little to differentiate between the terms, especially when discussing trees.

Glen


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## Nickrosis (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by glens _
> *In point of fact, there seems little to differentiate between the terms, especially when discussing trees.*


I agree. That's probably why the distinction was invented.

Shigo gets into this in Pithy Points.


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## xander9727 (Nov 14, 2004)

Nick gets into this on Arborist Site.


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## Nickrosis (Nov 14, 2004)

You bet I do. Will you just get over the flu and stop littering threads with valuable input? Sheesh!


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## xander9727 (Nov 14, 2004)

Oh, Carly, I just love it when you're assertive.


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