# Forestry Firefighters just a quick question



## Zackman1801 (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey guys, Im looking for a little info from former (or current) forest service, or municipal wildland firefighters, Or anyone who has experience. Im currently looking into buying my own set of forestry pants. I found a good price on a pair from an ebay store that is run by a fire service equipment dealer. Im wondering, do you wear pants underneath your forestry pants or just wear them like jeans? In my current fire department we are not issued forestry pants and usually use our structural pants for the small forest fires we have (Maine dosent burn like CA does!) and they are damn hot! They are hot enough in the winter but in the summer its almost unbearable. Some guys wear just jeans to these fires but thats outa the question for me. I dont feel comfortable standing in a forest fire wearing jeans the heat off of the structural fires ive been to is pretty decent 30ft away, i cant imagine jeans from 10ft or closer. Im also wondering what the quality of PGI pants is like? They are the makers of the pants im looking at. Any input would be awesome from any fire service personnel.

Thanks
zack


----------



## Beefie (Apr 5, 2009)

*Wild land pants*

I am a volunteer firefighter . At our station we have a light weight fire retardant jump suit/coveralls and or a 2pc pants /bottom that you were over your jeans. the stuff we have was recommended buy the D.N.R. forestry division and is much cooler than wearing bunker gear in the summer. You can get a lot more done before you get tired from the heat. The stuff they use out west is more expensive but I don't think you need to were jeans under the wild land pants. If you think about it are you going to take of your pants and switch over to wild land pants when you get a call, or just slip on something over the top of what you are already wearing.

Beefie


----------



## Zackman1801 (Apr 5, 2009)

my thought was that i would keep them at my house as they are mine, and when we get a call i could just put them on. Although in the summer time im in shorts 90% of the time so i could just slip them over anyways. But if worst came to worst i would just strip down at the station if i had to. I was wondering this because when i order them i want to make sure they are the right size, and if i do not need to wear anything underneath im going to order them in a size that will wear like jeans, instead of like my bunker gear.


----------



## slowp (Apr 5, 2009)

Nomex is what is worn out here. They smell funny, and are hotter than jeans. You wear them like jeans. The Forest Service (feds) issues you some, and you can trade em in at the end of a shift when in fire camp, for clean ones. You don't buy them and you turn them in when laid off, or you are supposed to anyway. 

They come in yellow for shirts, and green for pants and there are accessories which I'm sure somebody who is more up to date on this can fill you in on.


----------



## Zackman1801 (Apr 5, 2009)

Im not looking to join the USFS (YET) but am simply looking for some to be used with my volunteer department, since we are not issued any. My problem at this point is now knowing if they need to be retired after 10 years like structural gear does. Ive found LOTS of sets of pants for sale that are 1990's era that are new in the wrappers that would be too old for use, if they have to be retired after 10 years.


----------



## lionrider (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi,

I work summers on a forest service trail crew, and we do some firefighting when crews are scarce. I've heard really good things about these nomex pants:

http://www.firecache.com/prodinfo.asp?number=10.4990.G

but we are actually issued the cheap $90 version that nobody really likes and that doesn't last as long, since it is a lighter weave. I guess the one good thing about the cheap ones is that the fabric is thin enough that they breathe really well.

Good luck, and have fun.

--lionrider


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 6, 2009)

Dude! In Collyfornia we all freeball! OK sometimes we wear board shorts or rash guards. TMI?

OK the real story. First off you have to know what your state requirements are and of course you have to find out what is acceptable at your agency. Wildland pants are made in two styles, one is the FSS (Forest Service Specifcation) type pants that are worn alone like jeans. There are many brands and styles available in that type. I wear these quite a bit in winter because the Nomex does not absorb water like cotton does. I have both the jean cut BLM pants and the BDU FSS type. The second type of wildland pants are the type worn in California, the over-pant. These are worn over station wear, that is cotton or Nomes pants. This gives you 2 layers of protection but are much hotter to work in than the FSS type pants. They do NOT offer the designed protection when worn over shorts or undies and should never be worn that way. BTW your underwear whether tighty-whiteys or freeballing boxers should be 100% cotton. Same for your plain white t-shirt (or your dept t-shirt).

As a volunteer you should never enter a fire scene with cotton-polyester clothing. Not only is it a fashion faux pas it can melt and stick permanently to your only skin. 

IIRC PGI stuff is hecho en Mexico. My jacket zipper broke the first time I wore it. Alot of wildland gear is made out of the USA. Someone already gave the link for The Supply Cache in Colorado. They are great to deal with. So is National Fire Fighter. Your dept can probably buy gear from GSA too.


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 6, 2009)

Nomex does work well for work clothes, chips don't stick to it.


----------



## bogiemsn (Apr 6, 2009)

I wear theses, http://www.hoffmanboots.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=KPANT

Really well made. Expensive but worth it. I just wear 'em like jeans or with longjohns when cold out.


----------



## Zackman1801 (Apr 6, 2009)

i found a few on ebay. ( i know i know) But the seem like good deals.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270369920907

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250258235198

I just need to find out now if wildland gear has to be retired after 10 years like structural gear, or if it has a longer life span. Its a predicament for me, structural pants are really not very safe to wear into the woods, bulky, hot, and limit movement alot, yet its not good to wear jeans into a forest fire for obvious reasons. Then i have the option to buy these pants, but if anything were to happen and they were out of date i would be in serious trouble with the NFPA, its a big mess. although the first link looks like a good deal, i just hope i can win the auction. Id like to have myself a set anyways for use around the home while burning brush, and for use when we get our small calls in the summer.


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 6, 2009)

Actually jeans work ok, all cotton ones that is, any amount of polyester is bad. Nomex will transfer heat, while it won't catch fire or melt easily, you can get burned wearing nomex.
As for service life, a year or two of heavy use and it's time for new ones.


----------



## Zackman1801 (Apr 6, 2009)

at the rate we get calls, if they were brand new they would last me my career, unless we got some very nasty fires, but ive never seen or hear of any around here ever.


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 6, 2009)

What kind of gear do you wear now and do you carry a shelter?


----------



## Metals406 (Apr 6, 2009)

I did one small brush fire in Turnouts... Never again! I got heat stroke.

We ended up replacing a lot of our Nomex with CarbonX products... Good stuff.


----------



## RandyMac (Apr 7, 2009)

2dogs said:


> What kind of gear do you wear now and do you carry a shelter?



Shelter=baked potato bag


----------



## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2009)

RandyMac said:


> Shelter=baked potato bag



We call'em Shake'N'Bake... :agree2:


----------



## slowp (Apr 7, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> We call'em Shake'N'Bake... :agree2:



Yes, and one unforgettable session on how best to use them went like this:

"If you have screwed up so bad that your last chance of survival is to use a shelter, just wrap it around your head so your mama can indentify your body cuz that's all it'll be good for."

People didn't get in trouble for saying things like that then. 
 
If you burn in jeans, make sure they don't have stringy fringe on the cuffs because those catch on fire easily, but you can easily put them out if you are wearing gloves. Don't carry a lot of kleenex or toilet paper in your pockets either. Swimming goggles help you stay in smoke a little bit longer but that might not be a good thing. These are all lessons I learned on some crazy broadcast burns.


----------



## Zackman1801 (Apr 7, 2009)

At this current time ive only been on the department for less than a year. Im on a rural volunteer dept, that sees few forest fires, and usually they are something like someones camp fire spilled over and the lawn is on fire, by the time the panicking is done and the 5 departments that get called arrive on scene the homeowner has put it out with a garden hose. I probly dont need this gear, but i would like it for the times when we do have to fight smaller forest fires. Occasionally we get called out for supervised burns on brush piles and such but its not often.
I dont carry a fire shelter but in the line of work we are currently doing we are out for a few hours at the most and half of the time is clean up of equipment we strew about for use and rolling up hoses at the station (BAH!) A fire shelter would never get used and would cost us more than its worth, and by looking at many accounts of people the look to be useless for the most part. I have found a good dealer that i can get the pants off of that were made in 2002 so would still meet the 10 year rule if it applied. I have seen some other members who have them on the gear racks, but they are high ranking and could probly get the department to buy them for them. But at this price its a good deal so i mine as well buy them.


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 7, 2009)

Shame, shame, shame on RandyMac and Metals406. NEVER denegrate a piece of safety gear! It reduces your confidence during a deployment, maybe to the extent you leave your shelter. As an engine Captain I never allowed that kind of talk to occur esp around new firefighters. Fire shelters have saved hundreds of firefighters from burns or death. Now write yourselves up, this is going in your p-file.

Zackman pm with your address. I will send you a shelter.


----------



## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Shame, shame, shame on RandyMac and Metals406. NEVER denegrate a piece of safety gear! It reduces your confidence during a deployment, maybe to the extent you leave your shelter. As an engine Captain I never allowed that kind of talk to occur esp around new firefighters. Fire shelters have saved hundreds of firefighters from burns or death. Now write yourselves up, this is going in your p-file.
> 
> Zackman pm with your address. I will send you a shelter.



LOL... It surely doesn't stop me from believing in shelters, or having fun while doing a deployment class. I know they work (within their design limits), Shake'N'Bake is just a funny-ha-ha term for them here. No need to get your panties in a knot over regional nicknames. We've all seen the video of the shelters working, and we've all seen the video's of them NOT working. I didn't come up with the term--It's probably older than I am.

Like slowp said, if you have to deploy for realz... Someone ####ed up! And you can almost bet on a body count in a firestorm. If a guy is going to feel all insecure about his shelter because of a nickname--his ass shouldn't be on the line in the first place.


----------



## bogiemsn (Apr 7, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Shame, shame, shame on RandyMac and Metals406. NEVER denegrate a piece of safety gear! It reduces your confidence during a deployment, maybe to the extent you leave your shelter. As an engine Captain I never allowed that kind of talk to occur esp around new firefighters. Fire shelters have saved hundreds of firefighters from burns or death. Now write yourselves up, this is going in your p-file.
> 
> Zackman pm with your address. I will send you a shelter.



+1

http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/1976to1999_Entrapments_Part_2.pdf

See figure 3.

It's par for course on AS for someone to post a question rePE and for the boneheads to come out of the woodwork to denigrate the effectiveness of whatever piece of PPE is being discussed. No piece of equipment is going to be 100% effective in very situation. Obviously you don't want to have to rely on your chainbrake, chaps, helmet or fire shelter but they're damn handy when you need one.

It's very generous for 2dogs to offer to send you a fire shelter but without training on how to deploy it it won't do you much good.

If your department isn't helping you with PPE I hope they're at least giving you some training.

PS



Metals406 said:


> LOL... It surely doesn't stop me from believing in shelters, or having fun while doing a deployment class. I know they work (within their design limits), Shake'N'Bake is just a funny-ha-ha term for them here. No need to get your panties in a knot over regional nicknames. We've all seen the video of the shelters working, and we've all seen the video's of them NOT working. I didn't come up with the term--It's probably older than I am.
> 
> Like slowp said, if you have to deploy for realz... Someone ####ed up! And you can almost bet on a body count in a firestorm. If a guy is going to feel all insecure about his shelter because of a nickname--his ass shouldn't be on the line in the first place.



OOPS...
Sorry.


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 7, 2009)

bogiemsn said:


> +1
> 
> http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/1976to1999_Entrapments_Part_2.pdf
> 
> ...



Those two guys are not bone heads. We just have fun the way men do. Sometimes we play rough. Besides Metals406 is a metal-head. Phhttt.


----------



## slowp (Apr 7, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Shame, shame, shame on RandyMac and Metals406. NEVER denegrate a piece of safety gear! It reduces your confidence during a deployment, maybe to the extent you leave your shelter. As an engine Captain I never allowed that kind of talk to occur esp around new firefighters. Fire shelters have saved hundreds of firefighters from burns or death. Now write yourselves up, this is going in your p-file.
> 
> Zackman pm with your address. I will send you a shelter.



Shake and Bake they shall always be in my dinosaurette brain. Crispy or plain?


----------



## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2009)

slowp said:


> Shake and Bake they shall always be in my dinosaurette brain. Crispy or plain?



Amen sister!


----------



## kbiv (Apr 7, 2009)

What regs (if any) does your state fall under for its depts? I know a couple of people who have went through the new NFPA stuff for gear, i don't know if anything was mentioned about wildland. I think the 10 year mark for structural PPE may be more geared towards barriers breaking down. I actually prefer using a jumpsuit for wildland fires over my regular clothes. My VFD has a minimum of cotton clothes, such as jeans and tshirt, and then the issued jumpsuit over it. I have the pants and separate shirt for schools, but for day to day calls, my banana suit is much more convenient. Everything is still in my pockets underneith!!
For a while we were using just Indura suits from refinary safety places. We went to nomex because the schools and grants required it. At the added price of 100$ more a set, but oh well...
Like it was said, get as much training as you can. Too many depts, both career and volly consider grass and brush fires to be no-brainers. Its that kind of attitude that gets you stuck in the middle of the line with fire to the front, fire to the rear, and an empty pump...ah- good times!


----------



## kbiv (Apr 7, 2009)

Oh yeah a few more thoughts. If you go with the pants, try to get them loose for air circulation. That, and to prevent blowouts... One other thing, I know it is strictly forbidden, etc, etc, but in a pinch you could pull the liners from your structure gear. Bad side, it is using against manufactures guidelines, hence more liability, you screw it up, it is a 1500-2k$ mistake instead of a 250$ one, and you will still have some mobility issues. But it is more protection than blue jeans. I'm not telling you to do it, just mentioning it since I know a lot of depts do this.


----------



## mile9socounty (Apr 7, 2009)

2dogs said:


> What kind of gear do you wear now and do you carry a shelter?



Easy Bake Ovens. 

Here's what we wear around here for Fire Season. Old FS Nomex issued to me.


----------



## slowp (Apr 8, 2009)

The new style has cargo pockets and velcro. I can't compare cuz I quit going to fires a while ago. 

Where's your web gear, hardhat, gloves, chaps, camera and credit card?:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Zackman1801 (Apr 8, 2009)

we've got the jackets, and hardhats, gloves, boots and what not, just not the pants. We get small fires nothing like any of you might see out west. Out here grass is a big thing that burns, peoples lawns and hay fields catch from time to time, but never usually forests. Most fires last an hour or two and are over. Some members have the pants, most dont. I found a pair on ebay for $43 from a fire service supplier, they are fairly new and talking with the seller have found they have not been issued. They are 100% cotton with some fire retardant, not nomex but would work out better than my jeans in any situation because they have the 3M reflective tape, so people can see me.


----------



## bogiemsn (Apr 8, 2009)

kbiv said:


> Too many depts, both career and volly consider grass and brush fires to be no-brainers. Its that kind of attitude that gets you stuck in the middle of the line with fire to the front, fire to the rear, and an empty pump...ah- good times!



:agree2:

http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/pms841/pms841_pages23-26.pdf

See, Common Denominators of Fire Behavior on Tragedy Fires

Hats off and all due respect to you structural firefighters out there but fire burning through light fuels (grass and brush) can change behavior in the blink of an eye.

Speaking of jumpsuits, you can sometimes find nomex flightsuits on e-bay. I know one guy that wears a flightsuit for prescribed fires.

I haven't tried indura pants but I've worn indura shirts and liked them well enough, but given the choice I think I'd choose nomex for pants.


----------



## TKTimbercraft (Apr 8, 2009)

As a currant U.S. Forest Circus Station Captain I can tell you what the currant national standards are. (NFPA, USDA, USDI)

1) Nomex or fire resistive shirt and pants
2) All leather 8" tall boots with a Vibram type sole
3) High impact heat resistive hard hat
4) Leather gloves
5) New Generation Fire Shelter
6) Eye protection (saftey glasses or goggles)
7) hearing protection (ear plugs)

These are the minimum required PPE to set foot on a wildland fire.
If your department cannot afford this, contact your state forestry department and ask for assistance to fire department grants.

There is no such thing as a routine fire, Train like you Fight and Fight like you Train.


----------



## mile9socounty (Apr 8, 2009)

slowp said:


> The new style has cargo pockets and velcro. I can't compare cuz I quit going to fires a while ago.
> 
> Where's your web gear, hardhat, gloves, chaps, camera and credit card?:greenchainsaw:



I don't like the new velcro type. I wore mine half a day last summer and then broke my leg. EMT's cut them off. Go figure huh? Spend 2 years fighting my bosses to get a pair. Get them, get cut off.

Where's the web gear and all that? In the back of the crummy. Sorry though, no credit card. Can't afford one.


----------



## slowp (Apr 8, 2009)

I had a pair of pants that I wouldn't turn in. I hand washed them in camp. They were old, and soft like flannel. I like soft fabrics.


----------



## bogiemsn (Apr 8, 2009)

slowp said:


> I had a pair of pants that I wouldn't turn in. I hand washed them in camp. They were old, and soft like flannel. I like soft fabrics.



Awww, they were like your woobie. That's sooo cute!

Slowp, wowp loves his woobie pants.


----------



## slowp (Apr 8, 2009)

bogiemsn said:


> Awww, they were like your woobie. That's sooo cute!
> 
> Slowp, wowp loves his woobie pants.



Slowp is not a he. :greenchainsaw:


----------



## 2dogs (Apr 8, 2009)

bogiemsn said:


> Awww, they were like your woobie. That's sooo cute!
> 
> Slowp, wowp loves his woobie pants.



That's Ms. slowp to you.


----------



## Gologit (Apr 8, 2009)

slowp said:


> Slowp is not a he. :greenchainsaw:



 Way to go...ya got another one.


----------

