# Contract fellerbuncher southeast USA



## Bluedog (Aug 4, 2017)

I am looking for some numbers. . . . 

I am in a unique position to acquire a CAT 573c wheeled fellerbuncher. I will be cutting primarily for the logging company I currently work for but would like to do some contract cutting.

I operate in northwestern NC, can do thinning, select cut and clearcut, also any Hand falling on the slopes or big hardwood.

I am trying to sort out what a per ton rate would be to charge for my services, obviously per ton for the bunched and per day for hand falling are common in this area.

Anybody contract with a buncher that could shed some light?

SOUTHEAST USA, Not northwest, your numbers are waaaaaaaay different. 

Thanks


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## bitzer (Aug 5, 2017)

I would think you would want to get 20 bucks a cord for that. Depending on the wood that would be 8 bucks a ton? Then again if you are just cutting tree length maybe less. You would be better off cutting your own wood. Even subbing for a mill cut/skid vs. subbing cut for a logger.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 5, 2017)

If you don't even know the going rate for bunching or hand felling chances are there's a lot more you don't know that's going to cost you money. I'm sure you're a good operator, but you'd better learn the business end of things before buying equipment. If owning that machine was a better than break even proposition your boss wouldn't sub the work out.


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## Bluedog (Aug 6, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> If you don't even know the going rate for bunching or hand felling chances are there's a lot more you don't know that's going to cost you money. I'm sure you're a good operator, but you'd better learn the business end of things before buying equipment. If owning that machine was a better than break even proposition your boss wouldn't sub the work out.



It's a unique situation in that the owner(s) of the company I work for are looking to retire in the next 3 years and we are coming up with ways for me to buy in to the company with one or 2 pieces of equipment before taking over the whole thing, I would essentially be working for the same company, except I would own the cutter and on paper appear as a sub contractor as a way to build business credit and establish an insurance mod etc, so I won't be swamped with high interest, high insurance rates/mod and in need of personal collateral when I acquire the company, it's easier for a company to buy a company than for an individual to buy a company.

I was just looking for input from anyone who does sub contract with a wheeled buncher for a living, not looking for logging business advice, I am well aware of the business end of things, but being as it appears a contract buncher is a rarity as I suspected, I don't believe I am going to find any useful info.


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## bitzer (Aug 6, 2017)

Why don't you ask your boss?


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## Jhenderson (Aug 6, 2017)

If you are " well aware" of the business end of things you know what the operating expenses, ins, maint cost, fuel, and average monthly repairs are on that machine. Sence you work for the co. you know average production for that machine. Add your monthly payment, plus your salary to those expenses and divide by the average monthly production for that machine. That's your break even figure. Now add a set aside for replacement of that machine when you wear it out. Not that hard for someone who's well aware of the business end of things.


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## Skeans (Aug 7, 2017)

Why not do a set hourly rate? Normally bunches are around 150 175 for contract cutting, then a set rate for hand falling say around 80 from memory maybe more depending on insurance.

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## Jhenderson (Aug 7, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Why not do a set hourly rate? Normally bunches are around 150 175 for contract cutting, then a set rate for hand falling say around 80 from memory maybe more depending on insurance.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Are you saying $80 per hr for hand felling??? No wonder the rest of the world pays on production.


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## Skeans (Aug 7, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Are you saying $80 per hr for hand felling??? No wonder the rest of the world pays on production.


If you're paying your own insurance ect.

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## Jhenderson (Aug 7, 2017)

Skeans said:


> If you're paying your own insurance ect.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Who do you personally know who earns that felling? I've never met anybody who got paid hourly, only piece rate, and never met a soul who earned half that consistantly on a weekly basis.


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## Skeans (Aug 7, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Who do you personally know who earns that felling? I've never met anybody who got paid hourly, only piece rate, and never met a soul who earned half that consistantly on a weekly basis.


I know more then a few guys out here in the PNW that make that and do nothing but cut everyday part of the reason is ground they've only been on steep ground anymore. 

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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Who do you personally know who earns that felling? I've never met anybody who got paid hourly, only piece rate, and never met a soul who earned half that consistantly on a weekly basis.



You need to pay a visit to our side of the hill. There are guys out here who make pretty good money. I've never worked by the hour either but I've day waged and it amounts to about the same thing.
If you're working on steep ground, helicopter or yarder, and by steep I mean cow face steep, it takes that kind of money to get and keep competent help.
Being able to fall big timber without busting it up is close to being an art.
80 bucks an hour isn't a huge wage when a guy is running his own numbers. By the time a faller pays all of his own expenses, insurance and taxes, and provides for his own transportation and lodging there isn't a lot left.
Couple that with the fact that since everything possible is cut with a fell-buncher there isn't nearly as much steady work for a faller as there used to be. Damn little of it sometimes.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 7, 2017)

The last two posts make sense. Your just talking about an entirely different situation than the op. We all pay our own taxes, ins, etc. Its just that Va.( the whole area east of the pacific coast for that matter) is a lot different than your talking about. He's talking about pine or mixed hardwood on flat ground that's just too big for an east coast size head. He's not talking about food and lodging, transportation to remote sites and all that goes with your area. You also alluded to the fact there's not much steady work. 6 days, 50 weeks, home every nite around here. Not many people willing to pay $650 a day for a man with a saw and a gas can under those conditions.


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## Skeans (Aug 7, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> The last two posts make sense. Your just talking about an entirely different situation than the op. We all pay our own taxes, ins, etc. Its just that Va.( the whole area east of the pacific coast for that matter) is a lot different than your talking about. He's talking about pine or mixed hardwood on flat ground that's just too big for an east coast size head. He's not talking about food and lodging, transportation to remote sites and all that goes with your area. You also alluded to the fact there's not much steady work. 6 days, 50 weeks, home every nite around here. Not many people willing to pay $650 a day for a man with a saw and a gas can under those conditions.


You have to remember what you guys use head size wise is what I run for thinning young Doug Fir stands which are close to pine for time to cut as well limb. If it was me out there I'd be looking at cut a machine that can do everything but load and yard like a logmax 7000 fixed head that'd be a good way to go less over head.

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## bitzer (Aug 8, 2017)

Not that it matters much. The op has is mind made up he knows better and won't be coming back. 40 bucks per mbf for hand falling here is not unusual and the good ones will make more. Especially in high dollar hardwood. And anyone worth a damn will fall and buck 2mbf per hour. Falling and topping you'll get less per mbf but it will amount to more in the long run. I'd want at least $80 per hour to hand cut for someone.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 8, 2017)

So I've kept out of this fer awhile, cause I know next to nothing about mechanical falling, other then its fast and taking jobs from folks... 

That said.

What I've always been told and it seems to work, is a days wages for you and a days wages for the machine

In other words if you want to bring home $30 an hour say, then charge $60 

but $30 doesn't amount to much if you start thinking about vacations, health care, taxes, insurance, fuel... ****ing fuel... so go ahead and tack on another $30 to the other two $30 and yer up to about $90 an hour just to keep the lights on. In other words $30 to you $30 to the machine and $30 to grow the business/cover woopsies.

This all making sense? read it twice...

Now if you want to get ahead a little, and we all do, tack on some percentage to that $90, say roughly 10% and yer up to around $100 an hour. 

This all don't make much sense when it comes to being paid by production, but the math is pretty simple, figure how many hours you intend to work in a day, and add 2 (yer the boss now so get used to 12-14 hour days) make a guess at how much production you think you can get done, and simple divide yer days wages by estimated tonnage

for example 12 hrs @ 100 per hour divided by a complete guess of 50 tons ends up being $24 per ton, which honestly seems high, but I haven't a clue how much you can put down in a day with a wheeled buncher... so make yer own numbers.

Above all, keep an eye on yer costs, understand where the money is going and why, if yer not making money then either raise yer rates or find the holes in yer pockets.

Buying Iron is addictive, very addictive, only buy what you need and don't get suckered into some BS by some **** salesman in a nice suit... they are trying to take your money, and they are very good at it.

Anyhow... hope this helps.. also get good at wrenching, and always be on the look out for cheap parts houses, the dealers have all sorts of dicks in suits ready to swindle you out of money and largely NAPA can cross reference part numbers for a discounted part... same parts usually at 1/4 the prices...


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## Jhenderson (Aug 8, 2017)

bitzer said:


> Not that it matters much. The op has is mind made up he knows better and won't be coming back. 40 bucks per mbf for hand falling here is not unusual and the good ones will make more. Especially in high dollar hardwood. And anyone worth a damn will fall and buck 2mbf per hour. Falling and topping you'll get less per mbf but it will amount to more in the long run. I'd want at least $80 per hour to hand cut for someone.



$40 per thousand is about right, maybe even a few bucks low, but I've never seen a man cut and buck 15,000bf per day, day after day. Never mind throwing in a 3ft slash. At least not in New England. What's the per tree average you're referring to?


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## bitzer (Aug 10, 2017)

1 mbfers


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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

Your average hardwood tree is 1,000bf? Where is that location? A good job around here is 250.


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Your average hardwood tree is 1,000bf? Where is that location? A good job around here is 250.


Damn glad I don't work where you are no wonder they don't pay back there sounds like it should all be cut with a machine.

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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

All the work here is forest management, not pure logging. People try mechanization occasionally but most landowners and foresters aren't happy with the end result. Far too much residual damage.


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> All the work here is forest management, not pure logging. People try mechanization occasionally but most landowners and foresters aren't happy with the end result. Far too much residual damage.


Doing a thin typically is much easier and less damage is done with a machine. What area are you at?

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## bitzer (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Your average hardwood tree is 1,000bf? Where is that location? A good job around here is 250.


I'm messing with ya! There used to be a guy on here from New Hampshire that didn't believe we had 1000 bf plus oak here until I showed him. Average is probably 250bf. Better jobs in the 3-400bf range. Exceptional jobs will average 6-700bf. The biggest tree I've ever cut was a 2500bf red oak. I've had 2000bf hard maple too. I'm in SE WI. I've had a few jobs that averaged better then 1000bf per tree.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Doing a thin typically is much easier and less damage is done with a machine. What area are you at?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Southern New England. Cut to length has been tried with very limited success. Our hardwood is just too rough. It takes a lot out of a head and machine dealing with 6-8 in black or white oak limbs. What we've seen here is feller buncher and grapple skidder. Big hardwood or softwood needs to be trimmed before skidding. Hardwood tops tear up leave trees and long softwoods need to be trimmed and cut into manageable lengths. That's not in the cards for an outfit making payments on big iron. Skidding whole trees makes for larger landings and mountains of debris compared to trimmed and topped in woods. You are correct in the statement that a feller buncher can do a better job of initial placement. It's just what goes along with paying for that kind of equipment that most landowners object to. You need to understand virtually all forest land here is privately held. A good portion of that has been in the same families for generations. Aesthetics play as big a part as silviculture . There is little or no commercial forest.


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Southern New England. Cut to length has been tried with very limited success. Our hardwood is just too rough. It takes a lot out of a head and machine dealing with 6-8 in black or white oak limbs. What we've seen here is feller buncher and grapple skidder. Big hardwood or softwood needs to be trimmed before skidding. Hardwood tops tear up leave trees and long softwoods need to be trimmed and cut into manageable lengths. That's not in the cards for an outfit making payments on big iron. Skidding whole trees makes for larger landings and mountains of debris compared to trimmed and topped in woods. You are correct in the statement that a feller buncher can do a better job of initial placement. It's just what goes along with paying for that kind of equipment that most landowners object to. You need to understand virtually all forest land here is privately held. A good portion of that has been in the same families for generations. Aesthetics play as big a part as silviculture . There is little or no commercial forest.


Ok I can tell you for a fact there's CTL out where you are, normally a fixed head such as a fabtek or rolly they were designed for that kind of wood. Skidding can be done long or short with this style of head trust me I do it, one day I can be cutting as short as 16's down to 2" up to 40's to a 5" top the difference will be how the trails are set up.

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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

Let's begin with the op asked about feller buncher, not processor, which comes at 3 times the expense. I've seen 3 Rolly heads tried around here in the last 5 years. In every case they were operators from north of here come down to make a killing. They all went home poorer for the experience. One local fellow was having a terrible time. The factory sent an instructor to help. After 2 hrs he told the owner you'll never make money in this wood. He sent the machine back before it got repossessed.


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Let's begin with the op asked about feller buncher, not processor, which comes at 3 times the expense. I've seen 3 Rolly heads tried around here in the last 5 years. In every case they were operators from north of here come down to make a killing. They all went home poorer for the experience. One local fellow was having a terrible time. The factory sent an instructor to help. After 2 hrs he told the owner you'll never make money in this wood. He sent the machine back before it got repossessed.


https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...&set=o.152245188280482&source=48&__tn__=EHH-R
Just for you, I know they are run in New York as well because we've been looking at a few timberpro 725's with rolly's there as well some 753's set up with both.

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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

A little information for you. 1st, Facebook does me no good. I find it vile and will have nothing to do with it. 2nd, upstate or western New York has about as much in common, woods wise, with Southern Nwe England as Montana has with Eastern Oregon. One of the largest hardwood mills in the area had a crew go mechanized with a feller buncher and a harvester. They ended up folding their tent because their employees got tired of New York motels. That's where they had to go to buy wood that was fit for their equipment. You can post all you want about elsewhere, but I've got 30+ years in the woods here. I know the wood and I've seen people who thought they knew, come and go. Always lighter in the wallet.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 10, 2017)

funny thing montana has a great deal in common with eastern oregon, High plains, lodge pole pine, some ponderosa, inland Doug Fir, bunch a sheep shaggers in both of em

Technically isn't New York part of new England? Being one of the original 13 states/colonies


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> A little information for you. 1st, Facebook does me no good. I find it vile and will have nothing to do with it. 2nd, upstate or western New York has about as much in common, woods wise, with Southern Nwe England as Montana has with Eastern Oregon. One of the largest hardwood mills in the area had a crew go mechanized with a feller buncher and a harvester. They ended up folding their tent because their employees got tired of New York motels. That's where they had to go to buy wood that was fit for their equipment. You can post all you want about elsewhere, but I've got 30+ years in the woods here. I know the wood and I've seen people who thought they knew, come and go. Always lighter in the wallet.


That's a company that runs in Vermont with a fixed like I was talking about, not much different between Montana and Eastern Oregon to be honest. Both are fuel reduction based logging anymore. We have spent time in the New England area looking at CTL operations in the past before it was popular on the west coast to get some ideas I think you should look around.

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## northmanlogging (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> A little information for you. 1st, Facebook does me no good. I find it vile and will have nothing to do with it. 2nd, upstate or western New York has about as much in common, woods wise, with Southern Nwe England as Montana has with Eastern Oregon. One of the largest hardwood mills in the area had a crew go mechanized with a feller buncher and a harvester. They ended up folding their tent because their employees got tired of New York motels. That's where they had to go to buy wood that was fit for their equipment. You can post all you want about elsewhere, but I've got 30+ years in the woods here. I know the wood and I've seen people who thought they knew, come and go. Always lighter in the wallet.



Before this degrades into a snarling circle of drool and fangs...

I'm sure you know what you are doing in the woods, but your way isn't necessarily the right way or the most efficient, just cause it works or doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it wont work for someone else. That being said, what exactly is it that you do in the woods anyway?


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Here's that company running a harvester in Vermont

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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

Technically, you need remedial geography. N. E. Has five states, none of them being N. Y. But you did point out my error, that I was about to edit when the notification came in. I should have said western Oregon. Being from the east coast, every time I think of the ocean I think east. Much like many out west think Rhode Island is that long spit of sand off New York City. That would be Long Island if you're counting.
Ps. We've got a company down here from Vermont right now, doing a job I hand cut twenty years ago. They're a mechanized, long wood outfit. It appears they came down to show us how it's done. They paid twice as much as the second bid. Now ,I hear they've asked the landowner for a refund cause the wood isn't grading and scaling like they thought. So much for what works up there, works down here.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Before this degrades into a snarling circle of drool and fangs...
> 
> I'm sure you know what you are doing in the woods, but your way isn't necessarily the right way or the most efficient, just cause it works or doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it wont work for someone else. That being said, what exactly is it that you do in the woods anyway?



I work alone cutting skidding with a small forwarder. About 300,000 bf and 500 cords of pulp a year. If you read all the pertinent posts you'll see I've watched others make the mistake so I didn't have to. Several have signed the paperwork for CTL . None have made the last payment. That is the final measure of success.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 10, 2017)

to be fair, skipping right past geography, If yer gonna come in and start cutting long logs when the mills want short logs, then yer just a ****ing idiot, or a crook going asking the LO to refund money they likely already spent. 

Anyway, from what I've seen mechanization can be a money maker, if its applied correctly.


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> to be fair, skipping right past geography, If yer gonna come in and start cutting long logs when the mills want short logs, then yer just a ****ing idiot, or a crook going asking the LO to refund money they likely already spent.
> 
> Anyway, from what I've seen mechanization can be a money maker, if its applied correctly.


I see a day where if stuff isn't too big you'll have to cut mechanical just like Maine or Michigan where everything is pretty much CTL especially in small wood it only makes sense.

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## Gologit (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> I work alone cutting skidding with a small forwarder. About 300,000 bf and 500 cords of pulp a year. If you read all the pertinent posts you'll see I've watched others make the mistake so I didn't have to. Several have signed the paperwork for CTL . None have made the last payment. That is the final measure of success.



300,000 bf and 500 cords of pulp? Can you make a decent living on that?


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## northmanlogging (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> I work alone cutting skidding with a small forwarder. About 300,000 bf and 500 cords of pulp a year. If you read all the pertinent posts you'll see I've watched others make the mistake so I didn't have to. Several have signed the paperwork for CTL . None have made the last payment. That is the final measure of success.



Seems like we have more or less the same business plan, keep the equipment costs down and a bunch of hand labor, somewhere in many of my older posts I go off on big equipment and big payments... ad nauseum... 

been several "discussions" about the need for 300 sized excavators/log loaders (though the more time I have in my little 120 the more I see the need for a bigger machine but don't tell anyone ok, just still can't justify a 300 class machine unless its processing big sticks)

Is it possible that some of these big ctl outfits you've seen come and go got bit by the recession, or the general flatness of timber prices of the last 15 years or so (though right now we're doing alright on the left coast)


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## northmanlogging (Aug 10, 2017)

Skeans said:


> I see a day where if stuff isn't too big you'll have to cut mechanical just like Maine or Michigan where everything is pretty much CTL especially in small wood it only makes sense.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Blasphemy...

though if yer planning on a bunch of pulp thins then ctl and processing is the way to go, hand working a load of hemlock pulp is just ignorantly stupid and pointless


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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

Skeans said:


> I see a day where if stuff isn't too big you'll have to cut mechanical just like Maine or Michigan where everything is pretty much CTL especially in small wood it only makes sense.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



Easier said than done. We can talk till we're blue in the face but there's no substitute for feet on the ground. With the photos you guys post I honestly don't think you know what crooked, ugly wood really looks like. I've said numerous times in this thread, the wood is too crooked and bony. It's won't allow a harvester a fair shake. Nobody, but nobody ever shows a video of any machine working crooked, limby, hardwood. Much like a firewood processor sales video. They brag about turning crooked logs into firewood, then show you phone poles going through the machine. Same with harvester promotional videos. The patch I'm working now is cutting about 6 cord of firewood and 3000bf of pine to the acre. I'll get about 2 and 1/2 cords of processor quality firewood. The rest is so crooked I have to peddle it to homeowners in 12 ft lengths. That's just the way the wood grows. Besides that 3000bf of pine I'll get 6 cords of pine pulp out of those same trees. Crooked or double, sometimes triple tops. You could do it with a harvester, but you'd go broke, just all the others before you.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

Gologit said:


> 300,000 bf and 500 cords of pulp? Can you make a decent living on that?



Depends on what you require. If you measure success in $$ alone, there's a lot better ways to go. I enjoy my work. I think what I do has long term benifits for the land owners and the environment. I've got clients that wait a year or more for me to get to them and others where I'm working the same piece for the third time in 30 years. I take great satisfaction in the work I do. I live within my means, yet I don't do without anything I need or want. It's more than I'd get out of numbers in a bank book.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 10, 2017)

northmanlogging said:


> Is it possible that some of these big ctl outfits you've seen come and go got bit by the recession, or the general flatness of timber prices of the last 15 years or so (though right now we're doing alright on the left coast)



No, they went out by spending way too much time per tree and money on needless maint from trying to process ugly crooked wood. You can process a 23 inch tree with a 23 inch head in a minute or two easy enough if it's straight and fairly clean. You can spend 5 times that amount of time on a crooked 12 inch tree, beat up the feed motors and knife frame as well as boom pins and bushings, and loose your shirt doing it. The wood needs to match the equipment used.


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## Skeans (Aug 10, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Easier said than done. We can talk till we're blue in the face but there's no substitute for feet on the ground. With the photos you guys post I honestly don't think you know what crooked, ugly wood really looks like. I've said numerous times in this thread, the wood is too crooked and bony. It's won't allow a harvester a fair shake. Nobody, but nobody ever shows a video of any machine working crooked, limby, hardwood. Much like a firewood processor sales video. They brag about turning crooked logs into firewood, then show you phone poles going through the machine. Same with harvester promotional videos. The patch I'm working now is cutting about 6 cord of firewood and 3000bf of pine to the acre. I'll get about 2 and 1/2 cords of processor quality firewood. The rest is so crooked I have to peddle it to homeowners in 12 ft lengths. That's just the way the wood grows. Besides that 3000bf of pine I'll get 6 cords of pine pulp out of those same trees. Crooked or double, sometimes triple tops. You could do it with a harvester, but you'd go broke, just all the others before you.


I do a lot of that out here it's called Alder, Maple, and Oak a good operator can produce trust me my tonnage was around 33 a pulp load 2 or so a day.

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## Jhenderson (Aug 11, 2017)

You read my post on the factory instructor, didn't you? I guess we're done here.


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## bitzer (Aug 11, 2017)

In the central part of the state here they have pretty small ugly wood and all they do is ctl. Other then in the western part of the state in the driftless hilly region there aren't many handcutters left. I know guys who cut crappy little hardwood exclusively with machines. You couldn't make any money handcutting it. I've cut some crappy jobs like that. Might as well work at McDonald's. On my worst year so far I cut around 600mbf and 500 cords. Usually it's upwards of 8-900mbf and 700 cords. That's my saw, my forwarder, and me. So unless you're getting stumpage for nothing you must be barely scraping by in little crooked hardwood. If you came in here and kind of introduced your self, maybe threw up a few pictures of what you do that would be alright. But you come in here talking big and making dumb comments like we don't know what were talking about. Show us some pics. Show us some timber.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 11, 2017)

Which dumb comments? Talking big? Look at your post. I'm not the one claiming big numbers. All I did was answer about feller buncher rates. Somehow it got turned to harvesters. I reported what I've witnessed. By the way, when speaking to the LogMax rep at the expo I was told if you spent more than one minute on a tree you were loosing money. Read what I've posted one more time. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said you'd loose money. I also said crooked and limby is relative. Which it is. Why don't you run your business and I'll run mine rather than tell me about getting by.


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## hseII (Aug 11, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Which dumb comments? Talking big? Look at your post. I'm not the one claiming big numbers. All I did was answer about feller buncher rates. Somehow it got turned to harvesters. I reported what I've witnessed. By the way, when speaking to the LogMax rep at the expo I was told if you spent more than one minute on a tree you were loosing money. Read what I've posted one more time. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said you'd loose money. I also said crooked and limby is relative. Which it is. Why don't you run your business and I'll run mine rather than tell me about getting by.




Why do these threads always turn into a Chit Slinging?

The OP did start a thread asking for input on a specific machine, but the other input is relative to a point. 

This is the Intertube folks: quit being so defensive. 

I'm sure you do you well: I want to see what what works because I intend to do something in the future. 

Please let's get back to the discussion, & away from playground fights.


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## Jhenderson (Aug 11, 2017)

hseII said:


> Why do these threads always turn into a Chit Slinging?
> 
> The OP did start a thread asking for input on a specific machine, but the other input is relative to a point.
> 
> ...



I agree 100%. I'm sure if we were all around the campfire the tone would be much different. It's hard to pick up on the nuances of conversation without voice and body language. I'm going to leave things as they are. When I see what's going on in the world around us I realize how insignificant these things we talk about really are. Thanks for the reminder.


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## bitzer (Aug 12, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Which dumb comments? Talking big? Look at your post. I'm not the one claiming big numbers. All I did was answer about feller buncher rates. Somehow it got turned to harvesters. I reported what I've witnessed. By the way, when speaking to the LogMax rep at the expo I was told if you spent more than one minute on a tree you were loosing money. Read what I've posted one more time. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said you'd loose money. I also said crooked and limby is relative. Which it is. Why don't you run your business and I'll run mine rather than tell me about getting by.



I'm giving you some real numbers in good timber for comparison to the numbers you gave in crappy timber. There's a reason this state is 80% mechanized. The biggest timber grows where I'm at. I'm typically cutting woodlots that are 10,20,40,80 acre pieces that are often surrounded by farm fields. 90% of the time select cuts with logs/pulp. Every year a do a big clear-cut or two for ag or development. In the northern half of the state the woods dominates the landscape. Very little to no farm land compared to here. So they are cutting many thousands of cords of hardwood or mixed stands of hard/soft or pine plantations. There are heads that are fully designed for cutting ugly little hardwood. They do it all day, every day and make money. I for one have no interest in being tied into huge payments. I like to be able to walk away from my job for a few days if I want to. The size of the timber affords me to do that. I can bang a semi load or two out in a day depending on the wood. This isn't bragging it's giving real life numbers of what I work with every day. Personally I like hearing other guys numbers. If they are low maybe I can help them up their numbers and if they are high maybe I can learn something from them.


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## Skeans (Aug 12, 2017)

Also even down south the guys are adopting running dangle heads on the landing and in the brush. That being said starting out I'd be looking at what's coming down the pipe line and try to get ahead of the game.

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## 1270d (Aug 12, 2017)

Since this seems to have turned into a harvester in ugly Harwood thread, I feel I can offer something. That's what I do almost exclusively. Of course I'd prefer good wood but it doesn't always happen. 

Our Ponsse and Deere heads will work that type of wood up just fine. It takes practice and quite a bit of finesse to do it without wrecking your iron prematurely. I'm confident that I can work up any tree under 24 inch dbh in less than 10 minutes. Most in that diameter class take a couple minutes. That will usually yeild about 60 to 70 cords a day production. 
We have one or two guys taking off big limbs and a buncher laying the wood out now and this roughly doubles production.

Our trees typically have ten to twenty feet before the limbs start.

I missed the part about the factory trainer. Keep in mind these guys are super knowledgeable about machine setup, troubleshooting and operator training, but aren't the best at operating. Not saying they can't do it but I think I have met most of the guys for most of the major brands here in the great lakes region, and none were top notch operators. They may have been at one time but it's a skill you lose quickly if not done daily.


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## bitzer (Aug 13, 2017)

I was hoping you'd share 1270. You're one of the guys I had in mind who cuts smaller timber all day. I've met and know of many more guys who do it at SFI classes and so on. A guy would be hard pressed to make any money hand cutting it.


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## 1270d (Aug 14, 2017)

bitzer said:


> I was hoping you'd share 1270. You're one of the guys I had in mind who cuts smaller timber all day. I've met and know of many more guys who do it at SFI classes and so on. A guy would be hard pressed to make any money hand cutting it.



Most of the stuff we cut in a guy would be unable to make it hand sawing. The wood just doesn't have the value in it. Of course we do some jobs that would work out hand cutting, but then we can really pound it out with our mechanized crew. We would have to see a steady supply of 36 inch plus wood to ever consider going back.


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## muddstopper (Aug 20, 2017)

Bluedog said:


> I am looking for some numbers. . . .
> 
> I am in a unique position to acquire a CAT 573c wheeled fellerbuncher. I will be cutting primarily for the logging company I currently work for but would like to do some contract cutting.
> 
> ...


Well, I have read the entire thread and will admit I dont know anything about out west or north woods logging. But I do live in South west Nc and would guess my area logging conditions to be pretty close to the OP's. I grew up logging this area way back when you hand cut everything and used skidders to get the wood out. Most outfits like that are long gone. You still have a few one man shows that use the Old big stick loaders to get out a load or two a day. The big guys around here started out using hydra axes, but gave that up because of the damage the hydra axe did to the butt cut of each tree. It was alright in pulp, but messed up to many logs. Now the feller bunchers with the saw blades instead of the shears are the more common tools. Terrain determines how the timber is hauled to the buyer. The biggest outfit skids the whole tree to the landing and uses a knuckle boom loader, delimber and bucksaw to process the wood. The The knuckle boom feeds the brush to a large chipper and blows it into a large trailer. Most of this is is sold to power companies to mix with coal to generate electricity. The loader operator grades the timber as he bucks it up. veneer and peelers go straight to the mill. Butt ends and short tops after bucking are also fed to the chipper. They dont leave much behind. Only brush they dont chip are limbs that break off in the woods while skidding. Everything else goes to the wood yard. Since the timber company also owns the wood yard, the long logs get graded and bucked again. Some trees might only have one good log in it, the wood yard bucks that log off and sends the rest of the tree to the pulp mill. There just are not many big timber sales in my area anyore. The USFS doesnt do many sales anymore and private land is being sold to housing developements. I just dont think anyone can make much money logging around here anymore. Feller bunchers, loaders, trucks and trailers cost a lot of money and its hard to find a timber tract big enough to put all that equipment on. The terrain is also steep enough that you are still going to have to hand cut a lot of the timber and skid the old fashion way. Also, dont discount those old timey bigstick cable loaders, There is serious money to be made clearing house sites. Take one of those trucks with 200ft of cable and you can load out every tree on a house site sitting in one spot. Get paid for clearing the lot and sell a few hundred dollars worth of wood while your at it. Low equipment cost and pretty good wages with minimal labor.


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## PonsseGuy (Jan 26, 2018)

1270d said:


> Since this seems to have turned into a harvester in ugly Harwood thread, I feel I can offer something. That's what I do almost exclusively. Of course I'd prefer good wood but it doesn't always happen.
> 
> Our Ponsse and Deere heads will work that type of wood up just fine. It takes practice and quite a bit of finesse to do it without wrecking your iron prematurely. I'm confident that I can work up any tree under 24 inch dbh in less than 10 minutes. Most in that diameter class take a couple minutes. That will usually yeild about 60 to 70 cords a day production.
> We have one or two guys taking off big limbs and a buncher laying the wood out now and this roughly doubles production.
> ...


Amen to this, I started out 11 years ago running a Fabtek fixed head on a Timbco 415. Moved on to Ponsse 4 years later and never looked back. We cut primarily crooked limby black oak and white oak. Like 1270d said, 24" size trees take a few minutes if they're straight and clean. I will cut 30"+ trees unless there veneer quality or there's a high risk of cracking the butt cut while felling. CTL is being used more and more on steeper terrain and bigger wood with tethered systems, particularly in the PNW. My theory is that it will continue to become more and more widely used all over North America.

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## Skeans (Jan 26, 2018)

PonsseGuy said:


> Amen to this, I started out 11 years ago running a Fabtek fixed head on a Timbco 415. Moved on to Ponsse 4 years later and never looked back. We cut primarily crooked limby black oak and white oak. Like 1270d said, 24" size trees take a few minutes if they're straight and clean. I will cut 30"+ trees unless there veneer quality or there's a high risk of cracking the butt cut while felling. CTL is being used more and more on steeper terrain and bigger wood with tethered systems, particularly in the PNW. My theory is that it will continue to become more and more widely used all over North America.
> 
> Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk


Here in the PNW CTL it's mainly used in our ground as we can get at up to 70% there's only a few that are tether thinning I'm looking into this to get a head L&L does it for a private group that grows a plus average age same with Miller. I'll also say the guys out here that I know that have tried it long logging which is required it doesn't work they break the harvesters and forwarders, they run extensions on the forwarders from the from the pivot to the back and still break a forwarder in half. The harvester is a scorpion and it does ok but for a clear cut or steep ground they said it's not as good as a tigercat 870, they also have komatsu 931 they don't tether and say it's no comparison.

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## PonsseGuy (Jan 26, 2018)

Skeans said:


> Here in the PNW CTL it's mainly used in our ground as we can get at up to 70% there's only a few that are tether thinning I'm looking into this to get a head L&L does it for a private group that grows a plus average age same with Miller. I'll also say the guys out here that I know that have tried it long logging which is required it doesn't work they break the harvesters and forwarders, they run extensions on the forwarders from the from the pivot to the back and still break a forwarder in half. The harvester is a scorpion and it does ok but for a clear cut or steep ground they said it's not as good as a tigercat 870, they also have komatsu 931 they don't tether and say it's no comparison.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That's interesting, the Harvester I run is actually one that Miller owned and my brother is running one of L&L's former harvesters. Just curious, what do you mean exactly about the 931 being no comparison? 931 is a nice machine especially now that they have a 8w version. 

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