# converting tracked ATV to hydro drive



## lapeer20m (Feb 13, 2014)

Many of you have seen the photos or video's of my wood hauler, the beloved honey badger. About a week ago she she suffered a catastrophic failure....ok maybe not quite to that level, but she broke the primary clutch, a $300 part.







I've never been satisfied with the drivetrane. In spite of my constant fiddling and repairing it just doesn't steer quite right. Ever since i bought this thing i toyed with the idea of converting to hydraulic drive. NOW IS THE TIME.

Apparently purchasing a honey badger also requires one to own a front end loader....or in this case a backhoe.




Some photos while she is up off the ground:


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## lapeer20m (Feb 13, 2014)

I thought it would take a couple hours to remove the "cradle" that contains the entire powertrane. Turned out to be more like 7 hours. 

Engine removal was quick and easy. 


Here is the hour meter:


Finally removed the cradle:


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## lapeer20m (Feb 13, 2014)

The hydraulics are being stolen from a commercial walk behind mower. I don't really know if they are robust enough for this application, but from the data i've gleaned so far it looks promising. The honey badger will be slower with hydro's, but far more manuverable. I don't need to go fast, i just need to go places where most machines are unable to trek. 




I removed the wheel, 


Then the hydro motor


and mocked it up. The hydro motor will drive a chain turning the honey badger sprocket. This is advantageous as i can change the gear ratio to make sure the hydraulic motor is able to provide the necessary torque. 






My plan is to cut a hole in this 1/4" piece of aluminum in order to mount the hydraulic motor. 




Up until this point, everything was "free," meaning that i already owned it. Some stuff was actually free. Other things, like the mower, i bought brand new about 20 years ago when i had a commercial lawn mowing company. It paid for itself many times over. 

Now i need to go out and buy chain/sprockets and a few other goodies. Hopefully within the next week i will be out test driving the new setup.


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## zogger (Feb 13, 2014)

Great project!


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## beerman6 (Feb 16, 2014)

I wondered why Argo (etc) never went to Hydro. I read a article once were they stated they were worried about speed,heat and cost.

Very interested to see how this turns out.


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## wareagle5.0 (Feb 16, 2014)

pretty cool idea! i want one.


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## 7sleeper (Feb 18, 2014)

Cool project!!! Don't know how the rest looks like but I would invest a little bit of renovation work into the rest while you have it apart.

7


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## flyboy553 (Feb 18, 2014)

You are using a hydro for each side, right?

Ted


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## ttyR2 (Feb 18, 2014)

In response to the question about Argo never going with hydrostatic drive, a hydro setup would be heavier than a simple belt drive, and more expensive. That being said, hydro gives you a lot of options though.


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## lapeer20m (Feb 18, 2014)

ttyR2 said:


> In response to the question about Argo never going with hydrostatic drive, a hydro setup would be heavier than a simple belt drive, and more expensive. That being said, hydro gives you a lot of options though.



While i'm sure it's more expensive, i'm not convinced that hydro is necessarily heavier. The argo drive requires a snowmobile type clutch, plus a gear box, three brakes, and 2 clutches plus sprockets and chain. While a hydro setup could avoid all of those components.


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## lapeer20m (Feb 18, 2014)

flyboy553 said:


> You are using a hydro for each side, right?
> 
> Ted



Most certainly. one hydraulic pump and one hydraulic motor for each side.


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## lapeer20m (Feb 18, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> Cool project!!! Don't know how the rest looks like but I would invest a little bit of renovation work into the rest while you have it apart.
> 
> 7



A renovation is an excellent idea! However, this is my primary wood hauling machine and it's a bit embarrassing, but i am nearly out of wood. I cannot afford the time to referb the machine right now. There is feet of snow on the ground making it difficult or impossible for most machines to venture into the woods. 

I would like to tear the machine down sometime and do a complete renovation. There are some rust issues that need to be addressed. I would also like to paint the beast and replace the seat(s) Almost all of the mechanical parts are easy to find. The bogie wheels are available at tractor supply, the track is simply conveyor belt, lots of 1" shafts and heavy duty greasable bearings. Oddly enough, there are tons of bolts with fine threads.


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## 7sleeper (Feb 18, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> A renovation is an excellent idea! However, this is my primary wood hauling machine and it's a bit embarrassing, but i am nearly out of wood. I cannot afford the time to referb the machine right now. There is feet of snow on the ground making it difficult or impossible for most machines to venture into the woods.
> 
> I would like to tear the machine down sometime and do a complete renovation. There are some rust issues that need to be addressed. I would also like to paint the beast and replace the seat(s) Almost all of the mechanical parts are easy to find. The bogie wheels are available at tractor supply, the track is simply conveyor belt, lots of 1" shafts and heavy duty greasable bearings. Oddly enough, there are tons of bolts with fine threads.


That's what I was worried about that there seems to be some rust and thought that maybe some welding needed to reinforce. 

7


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## Jim Timber (Feb 18, 2014)

I hope this has enough power to make it worthwhile. Even if it doesn't, you'll just need to upgrade your pump/motors/engine (some combination there of) once done, so it's not like you're risking much since you have all the current components.

Looks fun!


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## ttyR2 (Feb 18, 2014)

All the plumbing, valving, hydraulic tank w/fluid, etc will be somewhat heavy. I still don't think you'll save much on weight (I think it'll be heavier).


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## lapeer20m (Feb 26, 2014)

Been too busy to work on the machine until today. 

I made great progress! The pumps are mounted, sprockets welded, and chains connected. 

I crudely mounted the engine/pumps so I could connect the hydro lines and take her out for a test drive.

I wouldn't call it a failure, but the test drive left a lot to be desired. The mounts for the hydraulic motors are simply too flimsy. They flex enough to allow the chains to slip and eventually pop off the sprockets.

I will reinforce the mounts and install idler sprockets for the chain.
She seemed to have plenty of power, but we will learn more after the motor mounts are fixed...


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## 7sleeper (Feb 26, 2014)

Sounds promising sofar. Thanks for the update!!! 

Waiting for a picture review! opcorn:

7


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## Jakers (Feb 27, 2014)

opcorn:


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## firebrick43 (Feb 27, 2014)

What exactly is the model of this contraption. By reading I was assuming Argo honey badger but that didn't get me any where on Google except for the interesting facts about what the real honey badgers are and how the will fight full grown lions and literally neuter the and have lion oysters for breakfast!


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## Hddnis (Feb 27, 2014)

I learned young that trans mounts had to be beefy or they would twist like a pretzel, my very first riding mower that I built out of two junk mowers I wound up the trans mount like it was cooked spaghetti.

This repower is a cool project, it has me sort of keeping an eye out for small tracked atv.



Mr. HE


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> What exactly is the model of this contraption. By reading I was assuming Argo honey badger but that didn't get me any where on Google except for the interesting facts about what the real honey badgers are and how the will fight full grown lions and literally neuter the and have lion oysters for breakfast!



It's a French Canadian vehicle called a passe partout, translated "go anywhere." I just thought that honey badger was a much more manly name. Its not amphibious.

There is not a ton of info online about these machines. The Quebec company was eventualy sold to a michigan firm and mine was one of the later models to be built in michigan before the company dissolved. From what I've read, the quality of the components improved significantly over time, with the early machines having serious reliability issues.

The drive system is brilliant yet complex and contains some hard to find items like automotive clutches from a Renault car. I do think that if the hydro swap does not work well I can rebuild the old drive system and make it functional.

Most of the parts are easy to find. The tracks are simply Goodyear conveyor belt. There is a realatively simple cog that drives the track. All of the bogie wheels are available at tractor supply or on amazon.

For those sho have not seen it tet, Here is a video of this machine in action when I was testing a firewood sled. This video was filmed with the old powertrane.


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## Jim Timber (Mar 5, 2014)

Did this originally have reverse?


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## zogger (Mar 5, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> It's a French Canadian vehicle called a passe partout, translated "go anywhere." I just thought that honey badger was a much more manly name. Its not amphibious.
> 
> There is not a ton of info online about these machines. The Quebec company was eventualy sold to a michigan firm and mine was one of the later models to be built in michigan before the company dissolved. From what I've read, the quality of the components improved significantly over time, with the early machines having serious reliability issues.
> 
> ...



Nice photography and real cool machine.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> Did this originally have reverse?



Yes. It has a gearbox similar to an Argo or a John Deere gator. 2 forward speeds and one reverse. The transmission was powered by a cvt "snowmobile clutch".

Unlike a gator , the gearbox did not have a differential. Steering was supposed to be accomplished by moving a lever that disengaged a clutch and simultaneously applied a brake.

In reality the brakes were difficult to adjust and they generally applied inadequate force and the clutch sometimes would not fully disengage. It drove well in the snow because the machine would tend to steer even if the brakes did not work because of the increased rolling resistance of the deep snow.

Hydraulic brakes would be a significant improvement but not as significant as hydraulic drive. 

Ill try to make a video of the setup sometime.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

Two steps forward one step back....

I reinforced the mounting brackets and created a makeshift idler sprocket and took her for a test drive. 

She drove awesome! Steering was exactly what I had hoped it would be. I could even turn one track forward while spinning the opposite track in reverse. 

Then the engine stopped abruptly. Something really bad happened. The engine will not turn, not even with a 3 foot cheater bar attached to the crank. 

I decided this was a great time to stop for lunch. 

I have a significantly smaller engine I can mount for now but not sure if I have the appropriate sized pulley. The two engines have different sized crankshafts of course. The new engine may not have enough hp. 

Time to start searching Craigslist. 

Grrr!


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## jags (Mar 5, 2014)

Let it cool very well and then hit the cylinders with lube (brake fluid works well for this) and see if you can get it loose. Any idea on why it seized up? Too hot? Not oiling?, etc.


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## 7sleeper (Mar 5, 2014)

Ouch! That doesn't sound too good. Don't know if it would be a good idea but have you thought of one of those smaller diesel engines? That would give you a lot of torque at low rpm and they sip fuel. They had some really cheap a while back. 

Good luck!

7


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

I just shot this quick video illustrating how the ppt drive system works (or doesn't work...)


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

jags said:


> Let it cool very well and then hit the cylinders with lube (brake fluid works well for this) and see if you can get it loose. Any idea on why it seized up? Too hot? Not oiling?, etc.



I'm still in the research and development stage. After mounting the drive motors, I was limited in the placement of the power plant (hydro pumps and Kawasaki engine) by the length of the hydraulic hoses. I temporarily set the power plant on top of the honey badger in an effort to test the hydro drive. In doing so the engine was on a bit of an angle. Although I checked the oil my guess is that the angle was severe enough to starve the oil pump. It was hindered by not having the exhaust connected which in turn required me to wear ear protection. If things were quieter I may have heard some early ticking/knocking preventing what I now believe is a tragedy!

It was a really nice Kawasaki full pressure lubrication commercial engine.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> Ouch! That doesn't sound too good. Don't know if it would be a good idea but have you thought of one of those smaller diesel engines? That would give you a lot of torque at low rpm and they sip fuel. They had some really cheap a while back.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> 7



I would love to find a 15-30hp diesel for cheap. I have seen some small Kubota diesels used for under $1k.


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## 7sleeper (Mar 5, 2014)

How much hp is the gas engine?

I was thinking more like one of those lifan/yanmar clones. Something like this 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10HP-AIR-COOLED-SINGLE-CYLINDER-DIESEL-ENGINE-10-HP-/180700361852

7


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## jags (Mar 5, 2014)

"...preventing what I now believe is a tragedy!"

You might still want to check into it. I seized up a 70hp boat motor (water pump). After I looked into it - there was no harm done. I realize that I was lucky - maybe you are too.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 5, 2014)

SUCCESS!

she is far from finished, but I have proof of concept now. 

The new temporary engine is from a push lawnower. It's a Briggs intek 6.5 hp. It runs wierd. I suspect that in its original configuration it uses the mower blade to supplement the lightweight flywheel. 

It's slow and I'm walking behind the honey badger using the commercial mower controls. The speed controls have a severely limited range of motion with this setup. When I get the power pack remounted and new controls it should travel at leadt as fast as a riding lawn tractor. 

Here is a video from tonight's test :


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## Jim Timber (Mar 5, 2014)

Thanks for the video, that's very helpful.


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## ponyexpress976 (Mar 6, 2014)

On those commercial zero turns surprisingly little of the power available is used to actually move the machine....most of it is taken up by the deck. Seems like the little 6.5 was doing ok...might be a little slow, nothing you couldn't fix with an 8-10 hp diesel and different size pulley (to help move a little more fluid). An oil cooler for the hydro's might not be a bad idea either.


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## firebrick43 (Mar 6, 2014)

The low speed torque of a diesel is immaterial here. The hydraulic pumps used on zero turn mowers needs to turn at there design speed meaning the engine is always at 3600 rpm. One throttles the pump not the engine. While a good diesel may be 20-25% more fuel efficient for the constant loads of a large zero turn mower remember that is more for the constant loads of the deck. With lighter varying loads the diesel doesn't have quite as an advantage over a gas motor. Throw in the higher fuel cost ~15% and higher purchase cost, higher noise, harder starting in cold weather, and the most important fact that his pumps need a vertical shaft engine recall many vertical shaft diesels. 

Lapeer20m I researched the passé partout and your right, not much there. Two questions. 
1. 
You said that the track was conveyor belting. My experience with conveyor belting is that the metal lacing to join it wouldn't stand up to the loads of a vehicle. Is the belting overlapped and bolted together and the resulting bump just lived with??

2. The drive lugs for the track appear to be bolted on as well. Are they they readily available?


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## nathon918 (Mar 6, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> The low speed torque of a diesel is immaterial here. The hydraulic pumps used on zero turn mowers needs to turn at there design speed meaning the engine is always at 3600 rpm. One throttles the pump not the engine. While a good diesel may be 20-25% more fuel efficient for the constant loads of a large zero turn mower remember that is more for the constant loads of the deck. With lighter varying loads the diesel doesn't have quite as an advantage over a gas motor. Throw in the higher fuel cost ~15% and higher purchase cost, higher noise, harder starting in cold weather, and the most important fact that his pumps need a vertical shaft engine recall many vertical shaft diesels.
> 
> Lapeer20m I researched the passé partout and your right, not much there. Two questions.
> 1.
> ...


 
kubota makes diesel zero turns... the only thing that would change with the lower rpm is flow rate of the pump, also not all pumps are rated at 3600 rpm...
why would he need to keep a vertical shaft engine? its just a hydro pump, other than maybe a space issue, theres no reason he cant use a horizontal shaft engine.
now im just guessing here, but i would imagine those tracks are vulcanized, and not laced together, also there plenty of conveyors that have much much more power than this vehicle puts out that uses metal lacing, sandwich/bolted, and vulcanized joints.
dont know about the drive lugs though, they also may be vulcanized to the belt???


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## lapeer20m (Mar 6, 2014)

The tracks are overlapped and bolted through.

These pumps did spin at 3,600 rpm in the original setup. One could spin an engine at a lower rpm and utilize a larger drive pulley. This would allow an engine to spin at 1800 rpm and the pumps at 3600 to maximize fuel economy, especially if the engine was larger than needed to drive the pumps and motors at their max potential. 

The drive pieces are some sort of plastic and they are bolted through the track. I don't have a good source for them. New ones could likely be made from metal easier than plastic. Especially if only a couple were needed. If they were all steel there may be a weight issue.

I drive a vw tdi and have a diesel backhoe so i know diesels. Ive been driving various diesel vehicles for many years. I like the idea of a small diesel but price and cold weather starting would be my primary concerns. A 10hp gas engine is nominally free while a diesel is closer to $1k.


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> I like the idea of a small diesel but price and cold weather starting would be my primary concerns. A 10hp gas engine is nominally free while a diesel is closer to $1k.



I have numerous diesels around here, I have NO problem starting them in the winter, in fact I MUCH prefer a diesel, my sno-blower is diesel and it starts in cold weather just fine and always works perfectly.

SR


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## 7sleeper (Mar 6, 2014)

As I showed above 10hp diesels don't cost 1k! And starting in cold weather on a diesel with a glow plug usually shoudn't be much of a problem at all. 

7


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## lapeer20m (Mar 8, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> As I showed above 10hp diesels don't cost 1k! And starting in cold weather on a diesel with a glow plug usually shoudn't be much of a problem at all.
> 
> 7



You are correct. I should have said that a diesel is several hundred dollars. It would be sweet to have one but the current budget simply does not allow for that sort of expenditure at this point.


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## firebrick43 (Mar 8, 2014)

nathon918 said:


> kubota makes diesel zero turns... the only thing that would change with the lower rpm is flow rate of the pump, also not all pumps are rated at 3600 rpm...
> why would he need to keep a vertical shaft engine? its just a hydro pump, other than maybe a space issue, theres no reason he cant use a horizontal



If you read my post I specifically mentioned diesel zero turns. The diesel fuel and torque advantage is for the constant loads on the deck. If your not hitting an 80% load on a Diesel engine then it fuel cost advantage quickly erodes. Large institutions can employee the large mowers keeping their 72"+ decks turning a full 6 hours a day. Most of these large mowers don't use belt drive pumps but a direct drive double pump.

You can mount the pumps horizontal but you have to ensure your case drain is up and then you have mess with the controls on the pump. If you change pulley size to run a slower engine speed, that's ok but the pumps can not turn faster than 3600 rpm. So if you need additional power you can't speed up the engine to provide it or you will damage the pump. 

Lapeer20m. While researching tracks I came across the lmc snowcat that have similar tracks. The more modern ones have similar drive system to what your doing and they listed the advantages (maneuverability and ease of control) but the big disadvantage is the warm up time. They recommend 25 mins of warm up time and I would say after rebuilding a few axial piston pumps and thinking about it I would agree. The tolerances are very tight and when in neutral position the pistons are not moving(just the barrel) preventing gauling due to thick oil. These are not your tough gear pumps everyone is used to.


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## Como (Mar 8, 2014)

Makes you wonder what they do so differently for diesels fitted in cars.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 9, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> If you read my post I specifically mentioned diesel zero turns. The diesel fuel and torque advantage is for the constant loads on the deck. If your not hitting an 80% load on a Diesel engine then it fuel cost advantage quickly erodes. Large institutions can employee the large mowers keeping their 72"+ decks turning a full 6 hours a day. Most of these large mowers don't use belt drive pumps but a direct drive double pump.
> 
> You can mount the pumps horizontal but you have to ensure your case drain is up and then you have mess with the controls on the pump. If you change pulley size to run a slower engine speed, that's ok but the pumps can not turn faster than 3600 rpm. So if you need additional power you can't speed up the engine to provide it or you will damage the pump.
> 
> Lapeer20m. While researching tracks I came across the lmc snowcat that have similar tracks. The more modern ones have similar drive system to what your doing and they listed the advantages (maneuverability and ease of control) but the big disadvantage is the warm up time. They recommend 25 mins of warm up time and I would say after rebuilding a few axial piston pumps and thinking about it I would agree. The tolerances are very tight and when in neutral position the pistons are not moving(just the barrel) preventing gauling due to thick oil. These are not your tough gear pumps everyone is used to.



I appreciate your input!

The info about warming the oil is very good to know. Perhaps I'll install a heating element in the oil resivior and plug it in an hour before use. Is there a cold weather hydro oil that is more suitable to winter use?


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## lapeer20m (Mar 9, 2014)

> *Hydrostatic or Brake-Steer? *Hydrostatic cats operate on individual hydraulic motors driving each track. They are the only cats capable of counter steering (one track driving forward while the other track driving backwards). This allows you to turn on a dime and while not necessarily easy on your tracks, it does make the cat more maneuverable than any conventional brake-steer cat. Hydrostatic cats are the 'cadillacs' of cats. They are very smooth and easy to maneuver. The two main drawbacks are warm-up time and cost of maintenance & repairs. To prevent damaging the hydraulics, the cat must warm up for about 20-30 minutes in cold weather before it should even move. If you skip this step you could be looking at a $2,000-$10,000 repair. For the snowcat commuter, a 'brake-steer' cat is much more convenient – just like your car – start it, warm it up a bit and go!


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## firebrick43 (Mar 9, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> I appreciate your input!
> 
> The info about warming the oil is very good to know. Perhaps I'll install a heating element in the oil resivior and plug it in an hour before use. Is there a cold weather hydro oil that is more suitable to winter use?




The site you quoted is exactly what I read. 

As far as oil, I have never seen a winter oil recommended. I know most are very specific about oil. Exmark, which I own one, used to recommend mobile one 15w-50 full synthetic. When mobile one switched to a base stock synthetic several years ago they started selling their own oil which I am going to guess is amsoil or some other PAO synthetic.


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## 7sleeper (Mar 9, 2014)

I find it strange that they need so long to warm up. Over in the tractor forums, where most modern tractors run on hydro, no one ever recomends any 1/2 hr warming time in winter work. A lot of the fellows there have small tractors and run snowblowers of them which I believe is quite taxing on the system. I'm no hydro expert so I'm just asking for an explenation.

Thanks!

7


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## firebrick43 (Mar 9, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> I find it strange that they need so long to warm up. Over in the tractor forums, where most modern tractors run on hydro, no one ever recomends any 1/2 hr warming time in winter work. A lot of the fellows there have small tractors and run snowblowers of them which I believe is quite taxing on the system. I'm no hydro expert so I'm just asking for an explenation.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 7



Snowblowers load comes off the engine not the hydrostat. 

But it does look like the manufactures recommend warm up and heaters for the tranny. 

John deere, scroll down to starting aids. 
http://manuals.deere.com/cceomview/OMLVU12593_F1/Output/OMLVU12593_F15.html

Cub Cadet
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/34007/Cub-Cadet-Ex2900.html?page=37

Kubota, pg26. -20 degrees Celsius is -4 degrees Fahrenheit 
http://kubota.com.au/media/10206/OPS-Tractor-M-GX-Series-100-110-126-135-3Y206-9971-1-.pdf


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 9, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> The diesel fuel and torque advantage is for the constant loads on the deck. If your not hitting an 80% load on a Diesel engine then it fuel cost advantage quickly erodes.



I have gas and diesel engines around here big and small, and I can't think of ANY time the diesels aren't better on fuel!, loaded or not! This is REAL world experience, over many years of owning them.


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## firebrick43 (Mar 10, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> I have gas and diesel engines around here big and small, and I can't think of ANY time the diesels aren't better on fuel!, loaded or not! This is REAL world experience, over many years of owning them.



I never said any where that diesels we not more fuel efficient at any load, I said their advantage ERODES(gets smaller) at light loads. 

When you look at gallon per (what ever time or distance measurement of your choice) then yes a diesel is nearly always more fuel efficient. When you measure grams(or ounces) of fuel burned per hp hour the measurements get much closer at lower loads. Diesel still wins by a high margin at higher loads. Diesel fuel(7.2 lbs per gallon) is heavier than gasoline(6.2 lbs per gallon). Therefore diesel has more btu's per gallon. 129500 for diesel and 114100 for gasoline.

If you look at all the old literature for caterpillar when they brought out the first mass produced mobile diesel it mentioned nothing of its fuel efficiency (which it did have) but about its fuel cost for a day. Diesel fuel for many decades was a byproduct that was priced dirt cheap. As was LPG when it came out(remember all of the propane tractors in the late 50's). People are trying to do the same today with LNG. Because most business could give a crap about MPG, they care about Mile per Dollar.

I will use this page as info as local prices vary widely. http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/?redirectto=http://fuelgaugereport.opisnet.com/index.asp

Gas at 3.48 and diesel at 4.09 for average price. You get 32787 btu's per dollar for gas and 31662 btu's per dollar for diesel. Add in the higher operating and maintenance cost(initial purchase cost, oil change cost, fuel system maintenance cost) for diesels and unless your fully burdening the machine you will not have a positive "financial" advantage. Notice the financial part and fully burdened part! 

Try a long term analysis of a gas vs diesel pickup and unless you are pulling a good size trailer all the time the diesel is costing you more money. This is especially true with the new diesels catalytic converters and particulate filters adding thousands to the purchase price and more maintenance down the road (but didn't work either when I did it back in the late 90's for Dodge 2500 truck and 90 cent diesel) and gasoline engine finally getting direct injection and low speed boost turbocharging(opposed to previous turbo cars set up strictly for higher rpm boost/performance)

Now please don't take this as I am trashing diesels, I am not. I understand that they are nice in many ways. I have a Cat powered Chevy 6500, the high torque is nice for towing my 38' horse trailer. I have had john deere and case diesel tractors and a cat dozer and driven all brands of diesel trucks and a lot of skid steers, all terrain fork lifts, combines, graders, ect. My day job is a machinist(used to assemble them years ago) for the largest diesel manufacture in the world, making parts for 750-7000 hp diesels (also natural gas engines) include one for the 777-797 haul trucks 992/994 loader,trains,ships, EPG, and NG compression. We sell very few stationary Diesel engines anymore in North America, they want the NG version and all the end users are wanting LNG versions for the mobile equipment industry wide due to lower fuel cost(even though it gets lower MPG, or should I say GPMile for this size equipment).

Now since this day in age lawyers are abound I have to post this.
The above is my opinion and not the statements of my employer.


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## firebrick43 (Mar 10, 2014)

O, and that generous torque rise(what people refer to as lugging power) in a diesel is not noticeable once you put a hydrostatic drive train in. When I got a chance to operate the new cat D6N,which is very very nice, the hardest part for me in operating it was the lack of the engines torque output rising and being able to feel it though the machine. It's hard to see the blade and how much you cutting(especially in a trench) and in a normal machine with a gear or power shift transmission one can FEEL the power increase and lift the blade to compensate. With that D6N all the sudden you found the tracks spinning with no feel that it was about to happen nor much of a change from the exhaust. Most hydrostatic drives have a slightly oversized engine and the pump/hydraulic motor is very linear in power output and runs out of capacity long before the driving motor does. Same happens in the skid steers I have operated (normally can hear the exhaust but not feel it)


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## lapeer20m (Mar 12, 2014)

We're a little off topic, but I agree that a diesel pickup truck likely costs more over its lifetime than a gasser for the average owner. Factor in cold start unreliability, noise, def, etc and a gas pickup makes a lot of sense. 

Vw still manufactured magical diesel cars. In the real world, A gas passat gets 30-35 mpg while a diesel gets nearly 50 mpg. There is no added maintenance cost associated with the diesel. 10k mile oil changes with about 5 quarts of oil.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 21, 2014)

I finally had a chance to do some more work on the project. I spent money today and bought new hydraulic hoses. My old ones were too short. 

I was quoted $260 at the first place. Ouch!

I ended up having two new hoses made and using couplers to put two pairs of the original hoses together And spent just over $100. 

I connected the hoses and oriented the power plant correctly and took her for a drive. I increased the speed by about 50% and its apparent that the engine is too small for the application. I think the hydraulics will allow it to travel 200-300% faster than its current speed but the engine does not have sufficient power to do so. 

Sunday I will try to haul my first load of wood and see how she performs.


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## zogger (Mar 21, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> I finally had a chance to do some more work on the project. I spent money today and bought new hydraulic hoses. My old ones were too short.
> 
> I was quoted $260 at the first place. Ouch!
> 
> ...



Wayyyyyy cool!

so, I know you are thinking about another engine now, which one?


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 22, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> O, and that generous torque rise(what people refer to as lugging power) in a diesel is not noticeable once you put a hydrostatic drive train in. When I got a chance to operate the new cat D6N,which is very very nice, the hardest part for me in operating it was the lack of the engines torque output rising and being able to feel it though the machine. It's hard to see the blade and how much you cutting(especially in a trench) and in a normal machine with a gear or power shift transmission one can FEEL the power increase and lift the blade to compensate. With that D6N all the sudden you found the tracks spinning with no feel that it was about to happen nor much of a change from the exhaust. Most hydrostatic drives have a slightly oversized engine and the pump/hydraulic motor is very linear in power output and runs out of capacity long before the driving motor does. Same happens in the skid steers I have operated (normally can hear the exhaust but not feel it)



On a smaller scale... I have a diesel zero turn mower, I've run the same mower with the same HP gas motor, here on my place. EVERYTHING is the same, except one is diesel (it does weigh a tiny bit more) On hills, you can "feel" the torque rise, or I should say, less RPM loss... In deep grass, same thing.

I have a steep place I mow, you can really feel the extra power the diesel has on the hill, I have to assume it's the torque that I'm feeling...

I have a diesel hy-stat dozer, I can "feel" when the blade loads, or I hit a rock or something.... so I just don't agree, perhaps it's because my dozer doesn't have the "extra" power of a 6??

SR


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 22, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> We're a little off topic, but I agree that a diesel pickup truck likely costs more over its lifetime than a gasser for the average owner. Factor in cold start unreliability, noise, def, etc and a gas pickup makes a lot of sense.



I bought my first NEW diesel PU in 1982, I've owned them since then... I also have gas too... I don't agree that all diesels are unreliable to start in the winter, also you don't hear much noise inside the cab of these newer diesels... There's a HUGE difference between newer diesels and older diesels. You really have to get more detailed than to generalize that ALL diesels are good or bad.

As for power and fuel consumption, if you are pulling loads, NO contest, the diesel wins. IF you run a light duty PU and use it a lot for a car, or light loads, I don't think the diesel is worth the extra money it cost to get it. AND "that's" the REAL problem, "the extra money it cost to get it"!

SR


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## lapeer20m (Mar 22, 2014)

zogger said:


> Wayyyyyy cool!
> 
> so, I know you are thinking about another engine now, which one?



If I had lots of extra cash right now i would likely purchase the single cylinder diesel discussed in this thread. 

I already spent all the money allotted for this project on other stuff! Robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I have more money already allotted for the firewood processor we r starting soon. 
So I'm planning to use the first cheap reliable 10 hp or larger engine I run across.


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## lapeer20m (Mar 23, 2014)

Update: 

I used the machine for about an hour today including hauling a load of firewood. 

It's a success! Although not yet perfect. The engine is definitely undersized. If I ask the pumps to deliver too much speed or power to the tracks the engine will stall. That's frustrating! It equates to crawling along, especially climbing a hill while loaded. But it will turn in place even on the concrete driveway, so it appears to have plenty of torque. 

Also, under certain circumstances I am able to get the drive chains to skip a tooth on the sprocket. I think that additional idler sprockets will cure this problem. 

I'm very encouraged by the progress but still have more work to do. 

I'm going to tear the siezed Kawasaki engine apart this week if time permits just to diagnose the problem. Parts for Kawasaki engines tend to be expensive so it's likely not worth a major overhaul.


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## lapeer20m (Apr 1, 2014)

I used her extensively the past few days to skid logs and haul firewood. 

I added a 2,000 pound winch with roller fairleed to the rear. I use this to skid logs to the machine. This winch setup works out real nice.

There is an unbelievable amount of firewood on the ground. It's also amazing how deep the snow was and how many trees I was unknowingly running over on a regular basis. Most of the snow in the swamp has melted but the ground is still mostly frozen. Soon it will be too wet and muddy to drive on, even with a tracked machine. 

I need to find a bigger engine!

I want to put up 10 full cord of firewood this summer.


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## Jim Timber (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm not sure I'll see bare earth by May at the rate we're going.


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## ponyexpress976 (Apr 1, 2014)

A Honda gx340 or gx390 should fit the bill nicely


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## johnnylabguy (Apr 1, 2014)

lapeer20m said:


> I used her extensively the past few days to skid logs and haul firewood.
> 
> I added a 2,000 pound winch with roller fairleed to the rear. I use this to skid logs to the machine. This winch setup works out real nice.
> 
> ...


 Good Work! I admire your ingenuity. Just make sure you post more pics and vids of the honeybadger in action!


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## lapeer20m (Dec 15, 2014)

I got busy with other things and this project fell to the side for the last several months. 

Tonight I finally purchased a "new" engine. A 17hp kawasaki electric start. 

I hope to get back to working on the honey badger soon!


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## MechanicMatt (Dec 16, 2014)

So you got the engine yesterday, and installed it tonight? Right???


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## johnnylabguy (Dec 16, 2014)

MechanicMatt said:


> So you got the engine yesterday, and installed it tonight? Right???


I'm waiting for pics! And video of course!


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## lapeer20m (Dec 16, 2014)

MechanicMatt said:


> So you got the engine yesterday, and installed it tonight? Right???



That is correct. 

Unfortunately the engine and pumps are installed in a temporary fashion above the drive motors. This has allowed me to test and modify the hydro drive motors, chains, and sprockets. This setup is great for expirementation but is not practical as it actually prevents the operator from seeing what is in front of them. 

Tonight I installed the new engine and took it for a test run. 17hp seems to be a good match for the hydro system. I was not able to stall the engine but under peak load I was able to really make it work. 

I'm very pleased with its operation and hope to make good progress installing the engine and pumps into their new permenant location tomorrow morning. With a little luck everything will fit under the hood!

Stay tuned for photos and video. 

Weatherman says we might have snow by tomorrow. While honey badger is supposedly an all terrain vehicle, it is best suited for snow.


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## MechanicMatt (Dec 16, 2014)

Did you end up installing idler gears or nylon guides to prevent the chain from jumping the drive sprockets?


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## lapeer20m (Dec 17, 2014)

MechanicMatt said:


> Did you end up installing idler gears or nylon guides to prevent the chain from jumping the drive sprockets?



Yes. 

I used idler sprockets on the "forward" side, and oak guides for the less used reverse side.


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## hanniedog (Dec 17, 2014)

So how soon with she be road worthy?


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## MechanicMatt (Dec 17, 2014)

Ever seen how a sport four wheeler is setup? Nothing used on the "foward" side, id worry about the tension on that idler under load.


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## lapeer20m (Dec 17, 2014)

MechanicMatt said:


> Ever seen how a sport four wheeler is setup? Nothing used on the "foward" side, id worry about the tension on that idler under load.



Perhaps not the best photo, but the idler is spring loaded and really only removes the slack from the non working side of the chain, it moves up/down based on how much tension is required and is not directly taking any of the load being applied to the drive sprockets.


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## MechanicMatt (Dec 17, 2014)

Sweet, the spring will help keep the idlers bearings from destruction.


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## lapeer20m (Dec 17, 2014)

hanniedog said:


> So how soon with she be road worthy?



I moved her out of the garage under her own power tonight. I have just a few quick modifications to hopefully finish in the morning.....then I have no more time for the next day or three.

About the only "big" project is moving the hydraulic reservoir and getting the hood back on the machine....and making some "tank steering levers"...and finishing the electrical. 

Ok, there's lots of work left to do!


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## lapeer20m (Dec 18, 2014)

I'm hesitant to post photos of this work in progress because sometimes research and expirementation is ugly and not everybody understands. 

Here is an early photo from the night I first installed the new engine. As you can see, the "power pack" consisting of the engine and hydro pumps is basically a commercial walk behind mower set on top of the honey badger. It's ugly, but Has allowed me to test and modify the hydro motors ,chains, sprockets, which have not really needed many changes other than idler sprockets.


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## jags (Dec 18, 2014)

Post away - there are some of us that love this kinda stuff.


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## lapeer20m (Dec 18, 2014)

Here, without the engine you can see the power pack is mounted high above the drive motors. It is too wide to fit down into the body of the badger. 




So I cut the power pack to fit and lowered it into it's more permanent location. Obviously the wooden 2x4 was replaced with metal


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## lapeer20m (Dec 18, 2014)

Obviously the hydro reservoir and other bits of metal still need to be relocated, but things have been lowered enough that the operator can see over the engine while driving. 





Here it is with the engine installed.


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## lapeer20m (Dec 18, 2014)

It's alive! So far it appears to be a success.


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## jags (Dec 18, 2014)

Wow - that looks like it is a smooth operation. Fluid like.


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## 7sleeper (Dec 18, 2014)

Looking great!

7


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## MechanicMatt (Dec 18, 2014)

I love it!


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## Dustyw (Dec 18, 2014)

The original transmission with 2 fowards and a reverse, is it an apex? I have a old coot atv with an apex transmission. They are hard to find.


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## lapeer20m (Dec 18, 2014)

Dustyw said:


> The original transmission with 2 fowards and a reverse, is it an apex? I have a old coot atv with an apex transmission. They are hard to find.



I do not know what brand the original transmission is/was.

I kept the old drive system in case this hydro setup fails catastrophically.


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## dave_dj1 (Dec 19, 2014)

I love it too! I wish I could find something similar.


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## lapeer20m (Dec 19, 2014)

I took her out for her maiden voyage last night and delivered 200 pounds of deer carrots to the staging area in the dark, about 1.5 miles round trip through the swamp over the river and down a very narrow, technical, twisty trail. 

No problems to report.


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## dave_dj1 (Dec 19, 2014)




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## Sawyer Rob (Dec 19, 2014)

dave_dj1 said:


> I love it too! I wish I could find something similar.



Look for a Cushman Trackster, I had one for years... Mine had the flotation collar so you could cross ponds ect...

SR


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## James Markow (Jan 30, 2015)

I bought a passepartout tracked vehicle and have removed the engine and transmission. I want to add the hydraulic motors, put a new engine in the rear. What hydraulic motors did you use, and what pump size? I am turning my tracked vehicle into a mini paintball tank.


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## Stlshrk (Jan 31, 2015)

That contraption is awesome! Good work and thanks for sharing your pics and videos.


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## lapeer20m (Feb 3, 2015)

James Markow said:


> I bought a passepartout tracked vehicle and have removed the engine and transmission. I want to add the hydraulic motors, put a new engine in the rear. What hydraulic motors did you use, and what pump size? I am turning my tracked vehicle into a mini paintball tank.



I do not know the size of the pumps/motors. They came from a zero turn commercial walk behind mower.

While these have plenty of power for snow, the hydros are much less happy on grass and other non skid surfaces.

I think the hydro setup from a commercial rider would be more appropriate for a non-snow machine.

I think the hydro setup is perfect for my needs: a go anywhere machine that is capable of hauling lots of firewood. 

For paintball, you may want something faster. The original Drive system for the ppt appears ready made for a snowmobile engine. A 100hp rotax engine would really make that thing fly!


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## lapeer20m (Feb 15, 2015)

We have plenty of snow! There are drifts 2 feet or more. Today i decided to move a little firewood. I started the honeybadger, moved her out of the garage, and let her idle for a few minutes. She floated on top of the snow until i tried to turn around. The tracks began to dig into the snow drift i was on top of, and pretty soon she was pretty much drowning in snow, then, disaster! 

The right side simply stopped driving. No matter if i pulled or pushed on the lever, the right side was completely dead! 

I thought perhaps i destroyed the pump since the ambient temperature is below zero. Perhaps the oil wasn't sufficiently warm? 

My mind began to think about how awesome this machine would be with a 100 hp rotax engine from a skidoo.......


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## lapeer20m (Feb 21, 2015)

a little investigation and i found that the hrdro line from the tank to the right side pump had come loose. This was letting air into the pump. After tightening the nut on this hydro line, everything is fine!


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## hanniedog (Feb 21, 2015)

We need some more video of the beast in action. Glad it was a simple fix.


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## Hddnis (Feb 22, 2015)

Glad it was an easy fix. I'd also love more video of the little beast in action.



Mr. HE


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