# Lets talk skidders...



## Metals406

As the bid date nears for this FS job... It's looking more and more like it's going to be worth putting a bid on. I'm going to go cruise the job Friday I think? Anyone want some pictures?

Anywho, if I bid this job, I'll be purchasing a skidder. I've been watching Craigslist, and other local publications, and there are some good deals out there. I'd like to spend somewhere between 10-15k. I considered a JD 440, but they seem to be a tweed expensive for what you get, and I don't know how pricey, or available parts are? Also, if you don't get the 440D with turbo, I don't think it would be as good a machine... But, I have never ran any of the 440 series.

So, who's ran what, and how did you like it? Clark stuff any good? I think this job would work the best with a winch, but a swing boom/winch combo would be good too. I'm thinking cat 518, JD 640 648? Parts aren't too out of whack on those right?
*Which ones should I avoid like the plague?* 
Anyway, lets hear some opinion.


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## redprospector

I don't know too much about skidder's. Untill I started my thinning business I just felled trees for someone else to skid.
I've got a JD 440-B and I like it pretty good, except I wish it was a grapple instead of just a cable. I really like the fact that it weighs about 12,000 lbs. and I can jump it on a gooseneck and pull it with my pickup, rather than paying a truck $3 or $400 every time I need to move it. But that's part of what I don't like about it too. It's only 8' wide, so on steep slopes it's a little tipsy, so you have to keep the back tires loaded to keep at least one of them on the ground. I've had it on 2 wheel's more times than I care to think about. Mine has a JD 70 horse turbocharged diesel in it. Which dosen't sound like much, but has been plenty with the gearing it has, but I'm not skidding anything huge either. It's real easy on fuel too. Most parts are still readily available through JD, but if it comes from John Deere it ain't cheap.
Mine was pretty much a basket case, with a good engine when I bought it. The tranny was in a million pieces. I lucked out, and it only cost about 2 grand for the parts to put it back together, so I don't have too much in it. But it's still a lot of work setting chokers.

Andy


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> I don't know too much about skidder's. Untill I started my thinning business I just felled trees for someone else to skid.
> I've got a JD 440-B and I like it pretty good, except I wish it was a grapple instead of just a cable. I really like the fact that it weighs about 12,000 lbs. and I can jump it on a gooseneck and pull it with my pickup, rather than paying a truck $3 or $400 every time I need to move it. But that's part of what I don't like about it too. It's only 8' wide, so on steep slopes it's a little tipsy, so you have to keep the back tires loaded to keep at least one of them on the ground. I've had it on 2 wheel's more times than I care to think about. Mine has a JD 70 horse turbocharged diesel in it. Which dosen't sound like much, but has been plenty with the gearing it has, but I'm not skidding anything huge either. It's real easy on fuel too. Most parts are still readily available through JD, but if it comes from John Deere it ain't cheap.
> Mine was pretty much a basket case, with a good engine when I bought it. The tranny was in a million pieces. I lucked out, and it only cost about 2 grand for the parts to put it back together, so I don't have too much in it. But it's still a lot of work setting chokers.
> 
> Andy



Setting chokers is always hard work... Keeps a guy fit though! No need for a gym membership. LOL

I found a 440B or 'C' (?) I can't remember which, in BC for $7,500... They said it was in really good shape... There's also a JD 640 fixed grapple here, and they're asking 15k... I drove by today, and it looks really clean. The fixed grapple is way more limited though... I'd rather find a swing boom. That way a guy doesn't have to work the rear around on a hill to grab at trees.

So you think a 440 w/o the turbo is not worth it?


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## wvlogger

i would stay away from the fixed grapple bud. if it were me i would run a swing grapple winch combo. now how step and/or soft is the job? if it is really soft you might want to look into a cat tracked skidder. they are awesome machines. they are just like a dozer with a swing grapple and a winch as an option. but the grapple is standard. like 1 of these 2 

http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308777&x=7

http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308778&x=7
good luck with the bid hope you get the job

chris


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## Metals406

wvlogger said:


> i would stay away from the fixed grapple bud. if it were me i would run a swing grapple winch combo. now how step and/or soft is the job? if it is really soft you might want to look into a cat tracked skidder. they are awesome machines. they are just like a dozer with a swing grapple and a winch as an option. but the grapple is standard. like 1 of these 2
> 
> http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308777&x=7
> 
> http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308778&x=7
> good luck with the bid hope you get the job
> 
> chris



I agree about the swing boom/winch combo, as I said earlier. 

As far as the site... They'll make me shut down if it gets too soggy up there... This is a 6 year old burn site, so they don't want it all torn to Hades.

Those track skidder's are sweet, but waaaay out'a my price range.


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## Cletuspsc

Forget that swing boom stuff unless that job is a pancake. A good Dual Arch with a bunching grapple is the spot. I run a 440 C on a regular basis right now and like it besides its TINY. . . .Mine has a turbo bassically same as a 540 C but witha shorter frame.

Got a few questions 

-Whats the average size wood

-How steep

-Length of skid

. . .. I would recomend though any deere but they dont like steep stuff (tippy). . . . .Timberjack = jack of all trades find a good 350 or 450 dual arch and your set. . . .cat 518's are good but they really suck the fuel. . . .you gotta heep the chit outta them to make em pay, they stick to the ground like glue also but again there kinda doggy on the get up and go.

Also how are ya laying out the wood. . . .had chopping or buncher?

-steve


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## spencerhenry

there are some smokin good deals on skidders right now. i found an '05 franklin 170 with 2200 hrs for $40,000. or on ebay right now is an '04 648 with 1500 hours for $59,000. the old smaller skidders dont ever seem to drop much, even in todays market. i have a big dual arch grapple skidder, and a small cable skidder, they both have their place. but in small wood with short skids, a big skidsteer will out perform both of them. my skidsteer weighs in at 13,200 with the tracks on it, it will really move some wood. 
in the $10 to $15k range there isnt much out there but OLD cable skidders, swingbooms arent real common and usually cost more than regular grapple skidders. the 527 CAT tracked skidders are PRICEY, dealer around here has 4 of them, i think the cheapest one is like $120,000.
my '98 franklin 185 dual arch with a winch is for sale, for $32,000, or i can rent it out. it is a big machine at 17 tons, but really moves the wood.


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## bullbuck

what size of big skidsteer are you talking about?i have been researching the purchase of a t250, had a chance to operate a t190 grapple and it blew me out of the water for its size,i thought the neatest thing about em is if there are no woods contracts there is other stuff you can do just have to buy attatchments not very pricey either...bobcat is offering some insane financing right now,worth a look...


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Setting chokers is always hard work... Keeps a guy fit though! No need for a gym membership. LOL
> 
> I found a 440B or 'C' (?) I can't remember which, in BC for $7,500... They said it was in really good shape... There's also a JD 640 fixed grapple here, and they're asking 15k... I drove by today, and it looks really clean. The fixed grapple is way more limited though... I'd rather find a swing boom. That way a guy doesn't have to work the rear around on a hill to grab at trees.
> 
> So you think a 440 w/o the turbo is not worth it?



Most of my work is at between 7 and 9000', so I wouldn't even look at one without the turbo. 
Like I said, I don't know a whole lot about skidder's, except that being about half crazy will help you be more productive with one. But from the pictures you posted on the other thread I think you'd be ok with a 440. Used parts are available too, and I bet you could add a turbo fairly reasonably.

Andy


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## 056 kid

You can take a 380 or 450 timberjack in more places than the 440 cat they are narrower and like to tip alittle more than the tj's imo.

A Timberjack 450 witha esco 100'' grapple and winch of course is a nice machine to run again imo.


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## Metals406

Cletuspsc said:


> Forget that swing boom stuff unless that job is a pancake. A good Dual Arch with a bunching grapple is the spot. I run a 440 C on a regular basis right now and like it besides its TINY. . . .Mine has a turbo bassically same as a 540 C but witha shorter frame.
> 
> Got a few questions
> 
> -Whats the average size wood
> 
> -How steep
> 
> -Length of skid
> 
> . . .. I would recomend though any deere but they dont like steep stuff (tippy). . . . .Timberjack = jack of all trades find a good 350 or 450 dual arch and your set. . . .cat 518's are good but they really suck the fuel. . . .you gotta heep the chit outta them to make em pay, they stick to the ground like glue also but again there kinda doggy on the get up and go.
> 
> Also how are ya laying out the wood. . . .had chopping or buncher?
> 
> -steve



It'll be all hand felled, I won't even have to face a lot of it I figure. I'll know more Friday when I go cruise it.... Some hilly, a lot of low slope too. Here are a couple pictures from the Roberts Fire... These aren't from the Sale area... But similar. It's a clearcut sale, with some leave trees...


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## Metals406

The above pictures show some really scorched wood... I don't believe the sale area is as bad.


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## slowp

Hey everybody, the contract might specify that skid trails must be spaced a minimum of ----- apart, and unless he's got a feller buncher, (not) he'll need to winch the trees to the skid trail.

My personal preference is a skidder that has a problem so you can see the flames shoot out the stack at 0 dark thirty in the morning. :greenchainsaw:

Not exactly legal during fire season. But it was winter.


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## MGlazier28

I've run a deere 440c, and i liked it a lot. . . haul a decent amount of wood, easy on fuel, good visibility, etc. I've also ran a cat 525 grapple, and didn't like nearly as much as the smaller deere. The cat had TERRIBLE visibility from the cab, although the cab was pretty nice inside. Also, fixed grapples SUCK for following a hand faller! The deere is a little tippy, but if you know what you're doing, you won't have any problems.


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## funky sawman

Their is all kinds of cheep skidders over here. I know a guy that has a 540b swinger for 12 grand in good shape, thats a smoken deal. I think it has a esco swinger on it.


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## mercer_me

I love my 540B. I have also run Timbe Jacks and they realy nice to, but they are realy loud. A freind of mine used to run a Clarke Ranger and he said that was the best skidder he had ever run.


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## mercer_me

I love my 540B. I have also run Timber Jacks and they realy nice to, but they are realy loud. A freind of mine used to run a Clarke Ranger and he said that was the best skidder he had ever run.


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## bullbuck

have spent several years in the cage on an 87 timbejack 380b,solid arch grapple,have had no problems maneuvering it because i know of nothing different,solid platform though with chains on all fours it will climb where you might should not go?you can ride it on three weels and it still feels stable enough,worst case scenario pop a motor costs 5000 crate cummins,thrash the tranny ten thousand for a new one,and something of this year or around it might be right around fifteen thousand?


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## SAW

Used to run a John Deere 440 A everyday, it was a nice solid machine, tippy and a little cold natured but starting fluid fixed that. 

You might want one with a turbo for more power but the A is geared low enough to get the job done. Ive pulled some big hardwood with that skidder. Never ran anything else besides the 440 and a JD 548 E so I wouldnt know about any others. 

Good luck finding one.


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## Cletuspsc

I would forget the 440 or 540 unless you wanna be workin up there for a while. . . .i would look at Timberjack, Cat and Franklins. and defiantly a grapple. . . .preferably a dual arch bunching grapple. . .. .those sorting scissor crap grapples suck.

-steve


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## mercer_me

SAW said:


> Used to run a John Deere 440 A everyday, it was a nice solid machine, tippy and a little cold natured but starting fluid fixed that.



My 540B is a little tippy to, but if I had forestry tires on it it wouldn't be as bad.


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## Cletuspsc

mercer_me said:


> My 540B is a little tippy to, but if I had forestry tires on it it wouldn't be as bad.



I have 23.1x26 tires on mine any they help alot. . . .those 18.4x26 tires that they come with are just stupid i dont know what deere was thinking with a high center of gravity and narrow axles and tires.


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## mercer_me

Cletuspsc said:


> I have 23.1x26 tires on mine any they help alot. . . .those 18.4x26 tires that they come with are just stupid i dont know what deere was thinking with a high center of gravity and narrow axles and tires.



After a while you gets used to it feling like your your going to tip over when you drive over a stump.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## 056 kid

mercer_me said:


> After a while you gets used to it feling like your your going to tip over when you drive over a stump.:hmm3grin2orange:



Likelyhood of rolling it on a stump is slim its wnen your traversing open hollows with big drags that you had beter keep that right hand ready to let em loose in a fast hurry!!

I used to love watching the do do head that ran over my thumb hit stumps. The look of sheer terror when the old mule would cock about 30 degrees to the side ad then flop back onto level!!


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## Cletuspsc

Your want talk about a stable machine .. . . . a cat 518 grapple with 28L's

we have an older one and it just wont tip.. . ..i think the center ossolation helps not to mention it weighs a bazzion tons and is a gutless wonder.


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## mercer_me

056 kid said:


> Likelyhood of rolling it on a stump is slim its wnen your traversing open hollows with big drags that you had beter keep that right hand ready to let em loose in a fast hurry!!



I know it won't role over but it feels like it.


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## bullbuck

it doesnt scare me a whole lot until there are no trees for a long ways to catch you,there was i guy i met that flipped a timberjack similiar to mine'he said seventeen times?'i do not know what i do know is on my way to work the next morning i checked out where he lost it,####ing insane to have a skidder up there,i have been cat skinnin on d6c for several years and this was definately cat ground,the guy rolled over two traverse roads on probably a 800'tall ridge broke the thing completely in two and lived to tell the tale! to top the day off the boss fired him what an ahole!


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## 056 kid

bullbuck said:


> it doesnt scare me a whole lot until there are no trees for a long ways to catch you,there was i guy i met that flipped a timberjack similiar to mine'he said seventeen times?'i do not know what i do know is on my way to work the next morning i checked out where he lost it,####ing insane to have a skidder up there,i have been cat skinnin on d6c for several years and this was definately cat ground,the guy rolled over two traverse roads on probably a 800'tall ridge broke the thing completely in two and lived to tell the tale! to top the day off the boss fired him what an ahole!



I got myself into one hell of a situation a while back. well a butt puckerer by my standards any way. So i am backed up to the end of a cut to get at some timber up the hill which i know was every bit of a 55 degree grade, you know the kind where if you drop your saw, its gonna go for a RIDE. any way i hopped in after pulling my brains out and choking 3 good reds (bucked). Went to reel em in and cause i didnt have my blade down hard it pointed the skidder down the hill just a bit. I am thinking "#### im still ok, she will just dip down and crawl back onto the road, well doing this is a scary menuver to begin with but you get used to it after a while. When i had gotten the front end back pointing up i really thought i had it, just had to let the ass follow, well the bank sunk under the back tire about a foot and a half and all the sudden im looking out my left grate and it looks like im sitting on the edge of a 5 story building with No skidder stopping trees for a good 400 yards down. I was scared to even open my door to see where my tire wa about to go.
I ended up getting my boss to come with the 5 and shove me a platform that i could drive onto.(he was thrilled) When i did let her go foward w swear the thing should have gone over. Thoes timberjacks will hold their own in the hills.
But like i said this was a scary thing to me.
my boss is INSANE with it, PURE INSANITY! and he tells me that he has lost most of his nerve...




About your story, there was an old fellow that sent a skidder down a hill 17 times in Montvail VA last summer. Sadly it killed him.

Once the wheels get busted off you can pretty much kiss your ass goodbuy!


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## bullbuck

now that sounds like you were on the verge of total disaster lol funny enough thats were the fun is at!you painted a good picture on that one 56


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## bullbuck

bullbuck said:


> now that sounds like you were on the verge of total disaster lol funny enough thats were the fun is at!you painted a good picture on that one 56



sorry to hear about the skidderman that lost his life..


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## bullbuck

now that sounds like you were on the verge of total disaster lol funny enough thats were the fun is at!you painted a good picture on that one 56


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## Ontario_Logger

Ran a john deere 440 B for good part of the winter. Its a good solid skidder. Ya she gets a little tricky on them hills. most of time i was on 3 wheels on the hills, kinda get used to it. remeber a few times where i had to change my underwear after lol. sorry to hear about the skidder operator die


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## bullbuck

on steep ground i try to turn around above a catch tree but if i do not have one, on my timberjack anyways i will push my blade down and make sure my hydraulics have charged!lol and the corner of the blade pushing down will actually set the light side back down if anticipated properly


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## Metals406

funky sawman said:


> Their is all kinds of cheep skidders over here. I know a guy that has a 540b swinger for 12 grand in good shape, thats a smoken deal. I think it has a esco swinger on it.



PM sent...


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## Metals406

Sure seems like a swing-boom is a lot more versatile.

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## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> on steep ground i try to turn around above a catch tree but if i do not have one, on my timberjack anyways i will push my blade down and make sure my hydraulics have charged!lol and the corner of the blade pushing down will actually set the light side back down if anticipated properly



The guy that owned my little JD before me had widened the blade to the full width of the skidder. I didn't think I'd like it in the woods, but I didn't take time to cut it back down. I'm glad I didn't, I've decided it's just 18" of comfort zone on each side and has saved me more than once.

Andy


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> The guy that owned my little JD before me had widened the blade to the full width of the skidder. I didn't think I'd like it in the woods, but I didn't take time to cut it back down. I'm glad I didn't, I've decided it's just 18" of comfort zone on each side and has saved me more than once.
> 
> Andy



Andy, got any handy pictures of your skidder?


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## redprospector

Be right back with some.

Andy


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## bullbuck

no doubt,once i learned my blade i could get myself into even more trouble!lol


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## redprospector

Here she is pulling whole tree's. I think I had 5 on that turn.







Gathering up a few.






Just sittin there, not makin' no money.






Just for fun.






All ya had to do was ask. 

Andy


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## redprospector

Dam, that last one was big. 

Andy


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## bullbuck

hey metals,quite the machine but from a mechanical standpoint i am a pescimast, i only see a bunch more things that could go wrong?this is my fault,but if the put another ten feet on that thing with a grapple camera they could load the trucks too...lol


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> Dam, that last one was big.
> 
> Andy



That's what she said.


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## Metals406

Andy, those turns are rather impressive for that little machine! I imagine in those pecker poles, a guy'd have to set 20 chokers on a turn! LOL


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> That's what she said.



Hahaha.
Yeah, but not to me.:blush:

Andy


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> Hahaha.
> Yeah, but not to me.:blush:
> 
> Andy



Don't sell yourself short (pun intended)


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Andy, those turns are rather impressive for that little machine! I imagine in those pecker poles, a guy'd have to set 20 chokers on a turn! LOL



She'll pull what ever you want to hook to as long as the hill is steep enough, and you're going down it. But once you hit flat ground 5 whole green trees that size is about all she want's at 7500'.
If I'm skidding log's I try to get at least 2 log's per choker, but I'm only set up with 5 slides.

Andy


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Don't sell yourself short (pun intended)



Hahaha.
I never sell myself short. But I do have to stand real close to the urnal.:jawdrop:

Andy


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## bullbuck

fair enough,got a chance to run the sawmills fire skidder that was alot like yours andy and that thing was scary even in the flats get u puckered flattening a gopher!


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## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> fair enough,got a chance to run the sawmills fire skidder that was alot like yours andy and that thing was scary even in the flats get u puckered flattening a gopher!



Yep, anything over 40% I have to stop and look over the top, gulp real big, dump the clutch and holler *Yeeee hawwww!!!!!.*
For some reason that makes me feel better, and the State Forestry guy's are pretty sure I'm nut's.

Andy


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## Metals406

I'll take a picture of that old Clark tomorrow too, on my way back from the sale. It has one of those, "Hurry up and sell it" paint jobs.


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> I'll take a picture of that old Clark tomorrow too, on my way back from the sale. It has one of those, "Hurry up and sell it" paint jobs.



I hate those paint job's. I bought an old International farm tractor once that had "fresh paint". Hydraulic fitting's had been painted over. What the heck, right? Yeah right. It was the second day I worked it before they started leaking again though.

Andy


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> I hate those paint job's. I bought an old International farm tractor once that had "fresh paint". Hydraulic fitting's had been painted over. What the heck, right? Yeah right. It was the second day I worked it before they started leaking again though.
> 
> Andy



I agree 100%... I'd rather see one all beat up and scratched! Those paint jobs look like crap.

They paint over everything, like it's actually gong to make it look good?.. Yeah, maybe from 300 yards.

I've seen some where they even got paint on the tires and seat. :monkey:


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## 056 kid

If you are cutting timber, hydraulic leaks are a way of life.



expect to go through at least 5 gallons a week...

And expect to get drenched with it every 3 weeks.(MAN it makes dirt stick!)


how do i know this???


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## funky sawman

I think the most economacial skidders are the mountian loggers. They normally have 353 or 453 detroits that are a dime a dozen and standered transmissions that are real easy on fuel. The best one to look for the the model H with two steering cylinders.


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## redprospector

056 kid said:


> If you are cutting timber, hydraulic leaks are a way of life.
> 
> 
> 
> expect to go through at least 5 gallons a week...
> 
> And expect to get drenched with it every 3 weeks.(MAN it makes dirt stick!)
> 
> 
> how do i know this???



I've been cutting timber for a day or two, and if I go through 5 gallons in a week I busted a hose or something.
If you're going through 5 gallons a week in normal operation, someone isn't maintaining their equipment.

Andy


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## 056 kid

how did you guess?


Boss man isent the _best_ at that but he does ok. He has gon through $300 worth of hoses and or fittings in a week between the skidder and loader.. sometimes when you have to limp her back to the landing, you use alot of fluid!


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## redprospector

Hahaha. Just lucky I guess.

Just plain old R&O fluid is over $10 a gallon around here. I can afford to keep good hoses on my equipment at that rate.

A lot of guy's don't keep up their equipment because they like to play on the week ends. I usually spend my weekends making sure everything is ready to make money come Monday morning.

Andy


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## Metals406

Here's some pics of the sale area... Went up there this evening with my 2 boys along for the ride.

These first pictures are of the sale area, but nothing will be taken from there.

The Roberts Fire burned thousands and thousands of acres.


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## Metals406

Here's what the harvest area of the sale looks like...


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## Metals406

The units to be cut ( #1 and #2) surround the old Ranger Station...


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## Metals406

Pics of the surrounding area that burned as well...






*These last three pics are kind of a panorama... I'll try and make a .gif of them and post them up.*


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## Cletuspsc

I would look into a grapple machine for shure. . . ..your goin to go insane setting chokers on that stuff. . . .if you do go cable set your self up with sling type chokers (cable chokers) and like 8 or so.


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## bullbuck

not much volume there that i can see?it looks like its too late to get any sound wood the tops had broken out of the two decent size trees,or is the volume elsewhere?of course trees always look small until you get up to them


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## Metals406

*Here's an animation of the panorama... The first and second frames are looking into Glacier national Park.*


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## Metals406

Cletuspsc said:


> I would look into a grapple machine for shure. . . ..your goin to go insane setting chokers on that stuff. . . .if you do go cable set your self up with sling type chokers (cable chokers) and like 8 or so.



I agree, and I'm looking into that 540B swing grapple w/ winch that Funkysawman's friend has in Sandpoint. I'd probably set up the winch with 7/16" chokers... Depending on what it has already?



bullbuck said:


> not much volume there that i can see?it looks like its too late to get any sound wood the tops had broken out of the two decent size trees,or is the volume elsewhere?of course trees always look small until you get up to them



The pictures with the trees missing tops are in the sale area, but won't be part of the harvest. The FS cruise estimate says 383 CCF total in the harvest area.


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## bullbuck

orange leave tree?383 ccf? i am aware what a cruise is but,is that good?


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> orange leave tree?383 ccf? i am aware what a cruise is but,is that good?



I estimate there's up to 50 loads there in 132 acres.


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## bullbuck

that dont sound too bad looks fairly flat,grapples are fast but they make you fat and lazy(spent several years on one) not to mention one heluva neckache!best of luck looks like some decent wood there!


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## redprospector

The part that I like is that when you finish a day's work, you could slip down to the river and fish for a while.

Andy


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> The part that I like is that when you finish a day's work, you could slip down to the river and fish for a while.
> 
> Andy



Hahaha, it's funny you say that Andy. When I was there last night, I was thinking the same thing. That sale is right where Big Creek and the North Fork of the Flathead River converge. I plan on pulling a camper up there, and working 7 days a week (If I get the job that is), at least for a little while. If I feel like I'm making good progress... I plan on fishing my butt off!


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## RRSsawshop

Ah,memories I know the area I worked in Glacier Park for 4 years in the 90s,know exactly wear the Big Creek ranger station is.NOW I WANT TO GO BACK!!!! THANKS Metals


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## Metals406

RRSsawshop said:


> Ah,memories I know the area I worked in Glacier Park for 4 years in the 90s,know exactly wear the Big Creek ranger station is.NOW I WANT TO GO BACK!!!! THANKS Metals



Cool! Small world...


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## 056 kid

You will go nutz without a grapple!


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## jon72

Metals406 said:


> As the bid date nears for this FS job... It's looking more and more like it's going to be worth putting a bid on. I'm going to go cruise the job Friday I think? Anyone want some pictures?
> 
> Anywho, if I bid this job, I'll be purchasing a skidder. I've been watching Craigslist, and other local publications, and there are some good deals out there. I'd like to spend somewhere between 10-15k. I considered a JD 440, but they seem to be a tweed expensive for what you get, and I don't know how pricey, or available parts are? Also, if you don't get the 440D with turbo, I don't think it would be as good a machine... But, I have never ran any of the 440 series.
> 
> So, who's ran what, and how did you like it? Clark stuff any good? I think this job would work the best with a winch, but a swing boom/winch combo would be good too. I'm thinking cat 518, JD 640 648? Parts aren't too out of whack on those right?
> *Which ones should I avoid like the plague?*
> Anyway, lets hear some opinion.



Every brand has it's pro's and con's,but every brand with an automatic or powershift will need attention sometime @ 10-12k hrs and usually the engines are around the same hrs too.And of course rubber is a big expense too.(just bought two 30.5x32 almost 8k with tubes and mounting.ouch)IMO these big $ fixes are most important to consider when looking at used skidders.Good Luck.
Jon


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## Gologit

Another vote for a grapple rig. And if you can get a grapple/winch set up it's even better.

What do plan on doing with the logs? Is any of it still good enough for lumber or will it all go for firewood?

Hand falling or feller-buncher?


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## spencerhenry

from what i see in the pictures it looks like alot of post & pole, but also looks like is has been several years since the fire. have you checked to see if the wood is still sound? i would guess that everything horizontal is no good, or at least starting to rot. it may look good on the outside, but the checks let snow and rain into the center of the tree and it will have streaks of rot in it. 
if it is what it looks like, my first choice would be a skidsteer with a bunching shear, or maybe a hotsaw, then a grapple skidder to grab the piles and take off. my experience with small wood is that the chokers like to come off on the way out. i have 9 hooks on my winch line, and try to hook more than one tree per choker, but when doing so i almost always have one or two come out. i run 3/8 chokers to help with the small wood, but if under 6" i wrap the choker twice before belling it.
bunch it bunch it bunch it grapple grapple grapple


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## tlandrum

looking at this job makes me feel like your going on vacation. what i could do with a job like that. i log in the mountains of east tn and a grapple skidder is just not usable in most cases youll just be setting chokers from a cable skidder. around here i run a 3/4 swedged to 5/8 with 5 bells on 8 ft 9/16 chokers. my skidder is a 667 clark ranger with 60,000 lb winch powerded with a turbo 453 detroit . cheap to fix. it sets on 28l-26 tires. they are rather pricey to replace,but are more stable on this steep ground. i have to agree with the guy that says the clark is the best skidder i have ever owned. it seems to be tougher than the rest. may not have all the bells and whistles but is a lot tougher. from the pics you have there i would go for a 540 ,i never liked the 440 ,they arte just too small for what i do. i just cant get enough productions out of them. go big or go home is the motto in these mtns. hook a few (3-4) 36"dbh 80ft long white or red oaks on the 440 and get a good laugh. my big skidder dont even like that pull. i hope you get the job and make piles of money no matter what you buy or decide to skid with. and be careful with that stuff. looks to be a lot of dead stuff waiting to get you when your not expecting.


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## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Another vote for a grapple rig. And if you can get a grapple/winch set up it's even better.
> 
> What do plan on doing with the logs? Is any of it still good enough for lumber or will it all go for firewood?
> 
> Hand falling or feller-buncher?



Bob... This is a cash sale, and marketed as 'commercial firewood'... Although, if I get the high bid, I can do anything with the wood. The FS just wants it gone. I have a local firewood guy that produces 2,800 cord a year, and said he'd purchase the sale @ 42 a ton. I also contacted a local logger (Family has been logging in the Valley here for many generations) that is grinding biomass... He said he'd also buy the wood from me, but didn't quote me a tonnage price yet... He wants me to give him more info on the sale, which I'll put together for him tomorrow.

I haven't logged since the late 90's, and when I did it was for a high lead company. This sale isn't a huge money maker, especially after expenses... But it would be work. I have to buy a skidder, fire extinguishers, fire suppression backpacks, shovels, Pulaski's, grass seed, fuel, maintenance items, etc all from the sale money. I figure it's gonna take 10 grand to get the trees out'a the woods and to the yard. Both buyers are 30-35 miles from the sale area, so not too far of a haul. Then 10-12 grand for the skidder, and probably another 3-5 grand for misc expenses. I figure after expenses, I may only walk away with as little as 15k... But 15k beats not working and zero money!

I would hand fall in the morning, and skid from afternoon 'till evening. My only concern at this point, is that some moron is gonna bid the sale up to a ridiculous CCF price, and make it impossible for me to do it. Right now the opening bid is $1.00 per CCF, there are 383 CCF in the sale... I can just see an out of work guy bidding it up to something stupid like $100.00 per CCF... Then he would be stuck with a sale that he couldn't even get out'a the woods. 



tlandrum2002 said:


> looking at this job makes me feel like your going on vacation. what i could do with a job like that. i log in the mountains of east tn and a grapple skidder is just not usable in most cases youll just be setting chokers from a cable skidder. around here i run a 3/4 swedged to 5/8 with 5 bells on 8 ft 9/16 chokers. my skidder is a 667 clark ranger with 60,000 lb winch powerded with a turbo 453 detroit . cheap to fix. it sets on 28l-26 tires. they are rather pricey to replace,but are more stable on this steep ground. i have to agree with the guy that says the clark is the best skidder i have ever owned. it seems to be tougher than the rest. may not have all the bells and whistles but is a lot tougher. from the pics you have there i would go for a 540 ,i never liked the 440 ,they arte just too small for what i do. i just cant get enough productions out of them. go big or go home is the motto in these mtns. hook a few (3-4) 36"dbh 80ft long white or red oaks on the 440 and get a good laugh. my big skidder dont even like that pull. i hope you get the job and make piles of money no matter what you buy or decide to skid with. and be careful with that stuff. looks to be a lot of dead stuff waiting to get you when your not expecting.



I hope I get a chance to do this job! I think it would be a lot of fun, and help me get rid of some of this winter "table muscle"!


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## Metals406

spencerhenry said:


> from what i see in the pictures it looks like alot of post & pole, but also looks like is has been several years since the fire. have you checked to see if the wood is still sound? i would guess that everything horizontal is no good, or at least starting to rot. it may look good on the outside, but the checks let snow and rain into the center of the tree and it will have streaks of rot in it.
> if it is what it looks like, my first choice would be a skidsteer with a bunching shear, or maybe a hotsaw, then a grapple skidder to grab the piles and take off. my experience with small wood is that the chokers like to come off on the way out. i have 9 hooks on my winch line, and try to hook more than one tree per choker, but when doing so i almost always have one or two come out. i run 3/8 chokers to help with the small wood, but if under 6" i wrap the choker twice before belling it.
> bunch it bunch it bunch it grapple grapple grapple



You are correct... This sale would/could be considered post and pole. I wish this sale had enough of a profit margin to buy some cool equipment, but it just isn't there. If I can do this sale, and make some money, my hope is that the FS makes similar sales in the area, right after this one is done.


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## bullbuck

what will you haul the wood with?


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> what will you haul the wood with?



I'll make decks, and Dan E. will come and load it with his self loader.


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## bullbuck

good deal,well i do not know how much logging you plan on doing after this contract,jst a suggestion though if you have not already check out machinerytrader.com they have all kind of iron but what i would suggest if you are not in a big hurry to get the wood out is check out maybe a tracked skidsteer t250 or so with a brush/log grapple on front these little things are pretty impressive then get yourself a car hauler to haul logs and skidsteer, we used to load our trailer w almost a thousand foot of dry wood,the plus about these is when this job is done and you are not getting back into full time logging? they are very versatile landscaping thinning snowplowing backhoe you name it they have an attatchement


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> good deal,well i do not know how much logging you plan on doing after this contract,jst a suggestion though if you have not already check out machinerytrader.com they have all kind of iron but what i would suggest if you are not in a big hurry to get the wood out is check out maybe a tracked skidsteer t250 or so with a brush/log grapple on front these little things are pretty impressive then get yourself a car hauler to haul logs and skidsteer, we used to load our trailer w almost a thousand foot of dry wood,the plus about these is when this job is done and you are not getting back into full time logging? they are very versatile landscaping thinning snowplowing backhoe you name it they have an attatchement



I am in kind of a hurry... I want to be wrapped up before years end. I wouldn't be able to get all of it done in time if I was cutting, loading, and hauling it all myself.

The contract begins June 15th, and I have to stop Dec 31st... Then I can start again June 15th, and then the contract ends Oct 31st. I would like to go as fast as possible on this one, and maybe pick something else up?

There are quite a few FS gigs to bid... A nice select cut sale up by my buddies... Lots of spruce up there--I'd say average DBH of 30"... I could sell all that hopefully too.

I'll just have to wait and see where the Lord is leading me.


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## Metals406

I've been doing a bunch of research online for cost of harvest... Per acre, per MBF, per CCF, etc.

All of the calculators and figures I'm finding are for full crews, with multiple pieces of equipment, insurance, huge overhead, etc.

Would it be unreasonable to assume I can get this wood out at $75.00 an acre? I'll be by myself, one skidder, and saw expense.

Estimated 132 acres in two units.


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## Metals406

Just got off the phone with the trucker... He wants $325 per turnaround @ 66 miles... That's $4.92 a mile. That seems a bit steep, but then again--I don't know what a fair rate is?

I know a flatbed truck is getting around $1.50-$1.80 a mile right now.

Does $325 a load sound right for a self loader?


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## spencerhenry

around here hourly rate on a self-loader is about $125 to $150


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## Metals406

spencerhenry said:


> around here hourly rate on a self-loader is about $125 to $150



He said he could haul 3 loads a day... $975.00 for 8 hours is $121.87... So maybe that's not way high?

That's if he put in 8 hours though.


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## bullbuck

talked to the boss he knows the figures and he said 4 is average down here for a regular truck so w the loader that sounds abou right,but do not know how much you know about loading and weight?but that is what will make or break this deal getting paid by the ton,he is probably not going to want to load much past his stakes with mostly long logs but fir is light ecspecially if some of it is dry he needs to be three or four logs above the stakes with 33's to get 90,000 gross or so either that or start haulin 41 foot sticks top of the stakes at least hopefully hes a friend of yours and hell heap em up for you!:monkey:


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> talked to the boss he knows the figures and he said 4 is average down here for a regular truck so w the loader that sounds abou right,but do not know how much you know about loading and weight?but that is what will make or break this deal getting paid by the ton,he is probably not going to want to load much past his stakes with mostly long logs but fir is light ecspecially if some of it is dry he needs to be three or four logs above the stakes with 33's to get 90,000 gross or so either that or start haulin 41 foot sticks top of the stakes at least hopefully hes a friend of yours and hell heap em up for you!:monkey:



We've discussed it, and already know we won't get weight with this wood... Over the gun-barrels we'll probably only see 23 ton per load.

Your boss said trucks are getting 4 dollars a mile down there (no loader)?


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## bullbuck

im double checking right now but thats what he said,we have three ten ton dumpsand two heavy duty freightliner log trucks our fuel bill runs around 100k a year so im thinking he knows whats going on?i will doublecheck


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## 380LGR

The trucking is not bad but in the end you will swear he made more money than you!


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> im double checking right now but thats what he said,we have three ten ton dumpsand two heavy duty freightliner log trucks our fuel bill runs around 100k a year so im thinking he knows whats going on?i will doublecheck



Cool... This jobs so nip-tuck--I have to make sure on every aspect... I don't want to go backwards on this gig!



380LGR said:


> The trucking is not bad but in the end you will swear he made more money than you!



I won't begrudge a man his living... I just have to make sure the job pays for itself.


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## 380LGR

I know of more guys getting out now,to jump back in now I would think twice things are just not good at all.


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## bullbuck

you doing your own labor thats making money right there,and the boss said 325 is reasonable


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> I know of more guys getting out now,to jump back in now I would think twice things are just not good at all.



I know!.. I'm bat-#### crazy. But there's this... Or nothing. I can't afford to work at McDonalds (unless I declare Bankruptcy), so this is what I got.

Ultimately, I want the Lord to guide me... If it isn't meant to happen, I'll find something else.

This biomass thing could be a market niche to fill though... Kevin needs wood brought to his yard to grind--maybe I can be that guy?

I was told to get out of logging back in the late 90's... I listened. Now I'm trying to go back at the worst time! LOL


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> you doing your own labor thats making money right there,and the boss said 325 is reasonable



Cool... I thought it was fair after I did a little more figuring, and saw what you fellas posted.

I want to run the lowest numbers possible to show my bank. That way if it goes bad, I can squeak by... If it goes good, I actually make a few bucks.

This skidder purchase is the killer... If I already had one, this job would be a definite payday... Then trip cost wouldn't bug me at all.


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## 380LGR

I would be careful with the big biomass crap its a good thing but not going fast enough. There is lots of plans for it here but they only want to pay 22-34 a ton delivered.


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## 380LGR

Forgot to add the trucking factor that will run between 18-22 a ton.


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## bullbuck

i think you should go for it just keep it small and simple you have to suffer a bit to know when the good times are plus that timber guy up there wants that crap gone probably look good for future sales


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## 380LGR

I would try to get a contract with a buyer if possible.


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> I would be careful with the big biomass crap its a good thing but not going fast enough. There is lots of plans for it here but they only want to pay 22-34 a ton delivered.



Yup... Dead on! Kevin will only pay 22 a ton max... BUT! I called the Forester today, and asked him if I could park out this job, and squeeze it for every morsel--he said yes. The cruise numbers I'm working with didn't account for all the downed stuff--and there's quite a bit there.







I'm going to high grade all the good stuff to the firewood guy at 42 a ton, and sell the rest to Kevin at 22 a ton.

Kevin also told me on the phone today, that he's hoping to buy more than just biomass this year, so the tonnage rate would be better.

I'll just pretend I'm in Vegas rolling the dice on this one.


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## 380LGR

Dont forget that this stuff is dry dry dry...Thats not good when you are selling by the ton. You cant afford to chip or grind it for 22 a ton plus you guy to deliver it. The pie is just not big enough.


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i think you should go for it just keep it small and simple you have to suffer a bit to know when the good times are plus that timber guy up there wants that crap gone probably look good for future sales



If the numbers work, my banker will bite. Then I just have to worry about some jerk who hasn't done his research bidding this up too high! I can't tell you the hours I have in to figuring this job?.. And I'm still not done! :jawdrop:




380LGR said:


> I would try to get a contract with a buyer if possible.



My dad said the same thing (and I agree)... But I think that'd be akin to pissing in the wind with this economy... You have to remember that Kevin and firewood guy are gambling too. They have to be able to sell what I bring them.


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## 380LGR

Im trying every way to sell my slash i must pull 30 ton a day back into the woods from the delimber you just cant make the numbers work. If it dosnt work on paper its not going to in real life.


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> Dont forget that this stuff is dry dry dry...Thats not good when you are selling by the ton. You cant afford to chip or grind it for 22 a ton plus you guy to deliver it. The pie is just not big enough.



You speak with wisdom bro... 

The biomass end will be the least to pay... But I'll hopefully make good with the firewood @ 42 a ton, and the bio will be icing on the cake.

There's a lot of wood on the ground there, and Kevin will even take pine needles.

Dan (trucker) is hungry too, and I'm sure will haul for a little less when he knows the payday gets smaller with the biomass.


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## 380LGR

I worked out a deal with my trucker if im going to get beat up so are you!!! Now we are both starving cant afford to stop cant afford to keep goin!!


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> Im trying every way to sell my slash i must pull 30 ton a day back into the woods from the delimber you just cant make the numbers work. If it dosnt work on paper its not going to in real life.



Kevin has a portable grinder too. 

I'll make him come to me!


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## 380LGR

Is kevin a buyer for a biomass plant or is he the middle man?


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> I worked out a deal with my trucker if im going to get beat up so are you!!! Now we are both starving cant afford to stop cant afford to keep goin!!



I know! That's just wrong! Kind of like walking head on into a 100 mile an hour wind... You walk your butt off, and never really get anywhere.


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> Is kevin a buyer for a biomass plant or is he the middle man?



Kevin produces the biomass, and resells at a profit.


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## 380LGR

I would look around for a buyer from a plant to talk to directly,you can be shocked at the diff in the prices.


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## Metals406

380LGR said:


> I would look around for a buyer from a plant to talk to directly,you can be shocked at the diff in the prices.



I'm sure you're right, but Kevin is going to be a good contact, and I don't want to jeopardize that. He's the only one for hundreds of miles grinding bio (he got a big FS grant to get going), and I don't know of any other guys looking to keep him in supply... He's been hunting his own since the start.

Plus, he can bring his grinder to the job, and I only have to pile it... Makes the payday a lot better.


----------



## Metals406

Just got off the phone with Kevin... He'll mobilize his grinder and equipment to my job, and pay me 14 a ton for what he takes.

I'll be doing very little work for it, so I just made the payday a little better on this gig.

I have no way of estimating tonnage for biomass... But it's secondary to the 383 CCF on the sale anyway.

Lets hope the bank sees fit to get me going on this!


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## bullbuck

sounds simpler for you just as long as it gets hauled off quickly...


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> sounds simpler for you just as long as it gets hauled off quickly...



Waaay simple... I'm going to milk this job for every fiber of wood, and park it out... The nicer it looks, the more the FS will like me... The more they like me, the easier it is to get more work.


----------



## bullbuck

sounds good!you be mowin those 30" spruce before you know it


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> sounds good!you be mowin those 30" spruce before you know it



I'm looking at some other FS jobs even as I type this... No start date on them yet.

If I can sell the byproduct, then they'll be worth doing.

Some of these sales are setup where the FS pays X amount to do the work... The icing is if you get salvage rights too.


----------



## bullbuck

yeah its really hard to make it just logging anymore,next week we start several units on the f.s.boundary to the apache res.and they call it a stewardship program where we will do small diameter thinning right along with the logging if you ask me the way we should have been doing it all along instead of all these goofy little hand piles that never get burned...


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> yeah its really hard to make it just logging anymore,next week we start several units on the f.s.boundary to the apache res.and they call it a stewardship program where we will do small diameter thinning right along with the logging if you ask me the way we should have been doing it all along instead of all these goofy little hand piles that never get burned...



Yup... Had a long conversation with Kevin about using all of our resources... We need to take something from the Germans... You can eat off their forest floors.

My dad was telling me, back in the 60's, when he was stationed there in the Army... When they'd trim up their vines, they'd save the vine trimmings for firewood!! Them folks don't waste nothing.


----------



## bullbuck

yep all woody material is fuel and we should utilize every last bit,dont know anything about biomass i will have to research it a bit because we leave lots of tonnage behind that never gets burned...i assume the finished product is to fire powerplants?


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> yep all woody material is fuel and we should utilize every last bit,dont know anything about biomass i will have to research it a bit because we leave lots of tonnage behind that never gets burned...i assume the finished product is to fire powerplants?



You are correct... Biomass *aka* hogfuel.


----------



## bullbuck

hog fuel haha,sounds like you got a good gig goin,best of luck!


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> hog fuel haha,sounds like you got a good gig goin,best of luck!



Thanks!..  But it's far from a sure thing. I still have to visit the bank, and get the bid.

FunkySawman (Forrest) is looking at some skidder's for me in Sandpoint. I'd really like a swing boom to do this one.


----------



## bullbuck

yeah i loaded two and skidded two today fixed boom,i wonder if my neck would feel any better with a swingboom?i am likely to never find this out...


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> yeah i loaded two and skidded two today fixed boom,i wonder if my neck would feel any better with a swingboom?i am likely to never find this out...



I've read that on some swing boom skidders, the operator runs it from 90° to the normal facing forward position... Meaning, you're facing the side of the machine (door side)... I guess you can operate the machine forward and reverse better, and see the swing boom better?

Neck saver for sure.


----------



## bullbuck

well im thinking about it,and your favorite place to grab from is the lowside of the trail of course,i guess if you are always above your logs youd be ok working just off of one side and im sure you would be able to adjust th seat directly forward for any high side skidding...?crap you got me wanting to try one now..an old timer and pondered the thought of installing a large rear view mirror on the r.o.p.s.above your head but determined that it would be mentally exhausting to reverse to a mirror image and compensate for the oppositeness...i dunno we got confused too never spoke of it again


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> yeah its really hard to make it just logging anymore,next week we start several units on the f.s.boundary to the apache res.and they call it a stewardship program where we will do small diameter thinning right along with the logging if you ask me the way we should have been doing it all along instead of all these goofy little hand piles that never get burned...



It would be nice if I never see another one of those goofy little hand piles again.
I started on a job for another contractor yesterday. 3 years ago the land owner cheaped out on the thinning and let a contractor cut & pile. Now he wants the piles gone, so I've been using my ASV, and grinding head to get rid of them. Every stinking pile has a stump under it (I thought that was a no no when hand piling.). 
I had a pretty hard time today. I hit one of those stinking stumps and the shock broke the quick attach mounting plate. The grinder fell off the machine. The ground is *STEEP* and while I was trying to get slack in the hydraulic lines so I could unhook them, I hubbed a stump and rolled the left track 1/2 way off. Then it started raining while I was trying to get the track back on. I know we need the rain, but how about after I get my stuff back on top?
I can't afford not to do this job, but I can't afford to tear up my equipment even more. I think that when I get my stuff out of the hole, I'm going to piss on the fire and call the dog's. He had it piled to burn, and as far as I'm concerned that's how he'll have to get rid of it.

Ok, I'm through whining. 

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

gotcha there red,first off those goofy piles if not burned only increase fire danger by creating miniature blowtorches,plus since they are too lazy(sometimes at upwards of 900$ an acre to build a little cubby to where the pile can be lit) that they cover the p.o.s. with 3 glad bags with the durability level that none of us could possibly afford,and then to top it off the (burn crews)didnt have time to burn ahead of the logging contractors(in most cases two to three years before logging)and so even consulting micky and saying you need to burn thesepiles before we log!we get(they had plenty of time to burn them skid it)now we have trash bags and 4 foot d6 track throwing chunks everywhere...ok i feel better handpiles are bull####!


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> It would be nice if I never see another one of those goofy little hand piles again.
> I started on a job for another contractor yesterday. 3 years ago the land owner cheaped out on the thinning and let a contractor cut & pile. Now he wants the piles gone, so I've been using my ASV, and grinding head to get rid of them. Every stinking pile has a stump under it (I thought that was a no no when hand piling.).
> I had a pretty hard time today. I hit one of those stinking stumps and the shock broke the quick attach mounting plate. The grinder fell off the machine. The ground is *STEEP* and while I was trying to get slack in the hydraulic lines so I could unhook them, I hubbed a stump and rolled the left track 1/2 way off. Then it started raining while I was trying to get the track back on. I know we need the rain, but how about after I get my stuff back on top?
> I can't afford not to do this job, but I can't afford to tear up my equipment even more. I think that when I get my stuff out of the hole, I'm going to piss on the fire and call the dog's. He had it piled to burn, and as far as I'm concerned that's how he'll have to get rid of it.
> 
> Ok, I'm through whining.
> 
> Andy





bullbuck said:


> gotcha there red,first off those goofy piles if not burned only increase fire danger by creating miniature blowtorches,plus since they are too lazy(sometimes at upwards of 900$ an acre to build a little cubby to where the pile can be lit) that they cover the p.o.s. with 3 glad bags with the durability level that none of us could possibly afford,and then to top it off the (burn crews)didnt have time to burn ahead of the logging contractors(in most cases two to three years before logging)and so even consulting micky and saying you need to burn thesepiles before we log!we get(they had plenty of time to burn them skid it)now we have trash bags and 4 foot d6 track throwing chunks everywhere...ok i feel better handpiles are bull####!


*
NOTE TO SELF:* Don't hand pile brush... Bullbuck and Andy will kill you!

LOL


Sorry to hear of your bad day Andy.


----------



## bullbuck

thats some funny #### metals,dont know why i chose to fuel the fire but reds probably got a brushpiler by the neck as we speak...


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> thats some funny #### metals,dont know why i chose to fuel the fire but reds probably got a brushpiler by the neck as we speak...



Probably an Illegal Mexican too! LOL

Two birds with one stone! Hahahahaha


----------



## bullbuck

undoubtebly correct sir!


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> *
> NOTE TO SELF:* Don't hand pile brush... Bullbuck and Andy will kill you!
> 
> LOL
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear of your bad day Andy.



It happens, just makes you appreciate the good ones more.

You are half right. The piler's were illeagal. The contractor was Sweat out of Florida. They import their labor from somewhere other than Mexico, but they look like Mexican's.

If you decide to hand pile your brush you are safe, as long as I don't have to mess with it. 

Andy


----------



## Gologit

redprospector said:


> It would be nice if I never see another one of those goofy little hand piles again.
> I started on a job for another contractor yesterday. 3 years ago the land owner cheaped out on the thinning and let a contractor cut & pile. Now he wants the piles gone, so I've been using my ASV, and grinding head to get rid of them. Every stinking pile has a stump under it (I thought that was a no no when hand piling.).
> I had a pretty hard time today. I hit one of those stinking stumps and the shock broke the quick attach mounting plate. The grinder fell off the machine. The ground is *STEEP* and while I was trying to get slack in the hydraulic lines so I could unhook them, I hubbed a stump and rolled the left track 1/2 way off. Then it started raining while I was trying to get the track back on. I know we need the rain, but how about after I get my stuff back on top?
> I can't afford not to do this job, but I can't afford to tear up my equipment even more. I think that when I get my stuff out of the hole, I'm going to piss on the fire and call the dog's. He had it piled to burn, and as far as I'm concerned that's how he'll have to get rid of it.
> 
> Ok, I'm through whining.
> 
> Andy



LOL...Andy, you weren't whining. You were, uh, *describing a situation*. Yeah, that's it...describing a situation. That's what I call it when I do that, anyway. 

I Know what you mean though. We're on our last day falling for a damn cheapskate that wants to cut our rate. He kept telling us he could get somebody cheaper and yesterday my partner and I had enough...we told him to just go ahead and get them. Rates have gone down here but there's a point beyond which it just doesn't pay to go to work.

And I'm not whining either...just describing the situation. :greenchainsaw:

 Bob


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> LOL...Andy, you weren't whining. You were, uh, *describing a situation*. Yeah, that's it...describing a situation. That's what I call it when I do that, anyway.
> 
> I Know what you mean though. We're on our last day falling for a damn cheapskate that wants to cut our rate. He kept telling us he could get somebody cheaper and yesterday my partner and I had enough...we told him to just go ahead and get them. Rates have gone down here but there's a point beyond which it just doesn't pay to go to work.
> 
> And I'm not whining either...just describing the situation. :greenchainsaw:
> 
> Bob



So, do you have another job lined up?


----------



## slowp

bullbuck said:


> yeah its really hard to make it just logging anymore,next week we start several units on the f.s.boundary to the apache res.and they call it a stewardship program where we will do small diameter thinning right along with the logging if you ask me the way we should have been doing it all along instead of all these goofy little hand piles that never get burned...



Do many people bid on stewardships there? We either get no bidders or one bidder. The specialists put so many "projects" in the package and not enough timber, and then with only one bid, there isn't enough timber money to pay for all the projects. But the enviros like it--they seem to like anything that is not very economically sound, so we plan the sales that way.

Be sure the landowner knows about the stumps under the piles. That is not a good thing. We hired a new fire guy who was burning right behind the handpilers! It was a nice change. Very few of the handpilers spoke English, but I can't do anything about that. They drove up here from 4 hours away--one way, but they beat out the local people for the job. 

We have one guy who works alone and does his work in the wet season. I like it. He burns as he goes. We have no biomass market here.

Since our area doesn't burn very much or often, we leave and like to leave all the slash in the woods. It breaks down fast, and disperses the rain a bit. It is hard for drier climate people to understand. Most of the ground is too steep to mess around on anyway.

Arrrgh! I took a bunch of pictures of "those short little log trucks" yesterday but I think and hope my camera fell out and is buried in my pickup. Stay tuned.


----------



## bullbuck

i am not sure about the bidding process here for stewardship?i will ask around,we usually stand a pretty good chance of getting the job being as we are pretty much the only loggers left,lol but we have done them in the past and i think that the indians gave us the logs in exchange for a 300 ft. wide cat and hand pile buffer,urban interface type crap,but i will research,and yes we too have alot of ground that is too steep for machines and hand piling certainly has its place,maybe you could send your burn guy down here for winter i am sure he would like the weather,and we need someone who will actually burn this crap,it really makes me sick to rescatter all of their hard work.


----------



## Metals406

We have very little handpiling here... Unless it's private property.

Stoltze Lumber wants to build a huge boiler to produce their own electricity for the mill... Kevin would hopefully get the hogfuel contract.

They haven't built it yet, because they can't get anyone to buy the electricity they over produce!!?? What kind of bull#### is that? The power company refusing power? 

I want to sick the Governor on the power companies ass, and maybe they'll quit being idiots?

I mean, who wants a stable job market, and a prosperous local economy? :monkey:


----------



## bullbuck

yeah that seems to be the way things are going its not a pretty picture,well i dont know where you get your power from but we have an electric cooperative and any overages on your production they have to buy it back,we have a little snowplay tubing area with lift and we run all of our power off a screaming detroit and generator and i do not think they have a choice but to buy our excess power wich makes sense, somebodys gonna buy it somewhere?w.t.f. and also those power bills on a mill get pretty steep,our recently deceased stud mill at a rate of about 15 loads a day milled,in a month the bill would be around the 50,000 dollar range SLOWP, talked to the cutters today and its sounding really good on this stewardship thing,from what i gather the bossman takes two envelopes to the f.s. meeting one high and one lower depending upon if anyone else has bid against him determines wich envelope he offers up,we have bought one unit so far and they will check our finished product and apparently that determines our eligibility for the other units,thats the story im getting but i am on a "need to know basis"and right now, as always i do not need to know,things could really be looking up!you know its kind of neat with the economy the way it is the f.s.has seemed to step things up a bit to keep things going,pj is the guy we deal with in the woods he drives a green one,and you aint got nothing on this guy he has the big chrome version too(airdamless)as of two weeks ago,i mean this guy looks like hes going for the win in the baja 1000 every time i see him!makes me laugh,but anyways he knows as well as i that without us he has nobody to check on,cooperation who woulda thunk it!


----------



## markbuilt

*skidders*

have the deere john 440 model and yes with the cable , the engine was rebuilt a few years back dealer said was almost up to the 100horsepower range . the biggest issue with the john deere is the clutches in the wench they can burn out . its a great machine not overly big good on fuel which is a plus these days , anyways thats my 2 cents


----------



## Metals406

markbuilt said:


> have the deere john 440 model and yes with the cable , the engine was rebuilt a few years back dealer said was almost up to the 100horsepower range . the biggest issue with the john deere is the clutches in the wench they can burn out . its a great machine not overly big good on fuel which is a plus these days , anyways thats my 2 cents



All input and opinions are welcome!


----------



## redprospector

Gologit said:


> LOL...Andy, you weren't whining. You were, uh, *describing a situation*. Yeah, that's it...describing a situation. That's what I call it when I do that, anyway.
> 
> I Know what you mean though. We're on our last day falling for a damn cheapskate that wants to cut our rate. He kept telling us he could get somebody cheaper and yesterday my partner and I had enough...we told him to just go ahead and get them. Rates have gone down here but there's a point beyond which it just doesn't pay to go to work.
> 
> And I'm not whining either...just describing the situation. :greenchainsaw:
> 
> Bob



Hahaha. You can call it what you want Bob. But I was whining, and it felt *Goooood!*

I got my track back on this morning, fixed the quick attach after noon, and went off the hill to get the grinder. Evidently my fix on the quick attach was a little tiny bit off.  I got the grinder on top though, I'll re-repair the mount in the morning.
The guy I'm doing this for was there, and I told him I was done. He asked me if I could at least do the piles up on top, I told him NO. He helped me all day, so I was in a little better mood by 6:30, so I told him I'd try the stuff on top, but I was history at the first sign of trouble. 
It's hell being financially embarrassed.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

slowp said:


> Do many people bid on stewardships there? We either get no bidders or one bidder. The specialists put so many "projects" in the package and not enough timber, and then with only one bid, there isn't enough timber money to pay for all the projects. But the enviros like it--they seem to like anything that is not very economically sound, so we plan the sales that way.
> 
> Be sure the landowner knows about the stumps under the piles. That is not a good thing. We hired a new fire guy who was burning right behind the handpilers! It was a nice change. Very few of the handpilers spoke English, but I can't do anything about that. They drove up here from 4 hours away--one way, but they beat out the local people for the job.



Bullbuck probably knows more about it than I do, but I'm pretty sure that the "stewardship" deals are pretty new to this area (within the last few years anyway). Should have been done that way when there was actually a market for the timber. Those stinkin' enviros could mess up a train wreck.

I talked to the land owner today. I explained the stumps to him, he said he was wondering why when he burned the piles around his house for several days after little fires would pop up here & there. Dam root's. 

I quit bidding on FS projects, because I had to work legal's, and provide them with workmans comp, insurance, gov. mandated pay, etc. etc. etc. Then these "big shots" come in from another area and bid a job at less than what it would cost me to do it. But there's nothing anyone can do about it, unless it's me doing it. 
Oh well, that's life. I do ok working private land, and state stuff. 

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

hey red,good to hear you are up and running,you are not working out at jims are you?:monkey:


----------



## Gologit

Metals406 said:


> So, do you have another job lined up?



Yup. I'm not having much luck being semi retired. The phone keeps ringing. 

And I keep answering it.


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> hey red,good to hear you are up and running,you are not working out at jims are you?:monkey:



I don't know what the owners name is. It's out 244 across from the pay by the inch fishing place (Raspberry hill), way up on top.

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

okay different place,sounded alot like where i did some skidsteer grapple last summer with a pile on every stump,apparently some handpilers were misinformed those stumps can last for months on fire and when they decide to blow up it is always the worst possible time,i used to torch commercial piles for george i liked it!huge smoke plumes! nowadays i just stress out...


----------



## redprospector

Huge smoke plumes right now would be bad news, even with the little dab of rain we got.

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

no doubt!lucky there has been little wind this year,but i have heard of localized two inch rainstorms at different locations,not bad for this time of year!


----------



## Metals406

Gologit said:


> Yup. I'm not having much luck being semi retired. The phone keeps ringing.
> 
> And I keep answering it.





I'll be retarded along with you! Errr... Retired!

Tomorrow's the big day... I meet with the bank to see if I get some capital to do this FS stuff.


----------



## Mike Cantolina

I really liked the clarks also.

I haven't logged since '03. Still have an old 79 450 Tj though.

Oh wait, I guess I did log some in 06 for another guy while between tree jobs.


----------



## Metals406

Okay... After a lot of work, a lot of figuring, and a lot of time in general to figure this job... NADA.

The bank told me they wouldn't help me out, so I called my buddy this afternoon, and asked him to finance the bid for me. He agreed, and I rushed to the FS office. The bidding started @ 2pm, and I got there right at 2pm. The forester was nice enough to give me 10 extra minutes to get my envelope stuffed with the bid and 100 bucks.

There were 3 people bidding including me. The sealed envelopes were opened, and then the oral bidding began. The bidding started at $1.00 per CCF (1 CCF= 100 cu. ft.)... I had enough dough to stop bidding somewhere around $3.00 a CCF... The other two didn't stop until $6.34 per CCF... That's $2,425.00 total bid price.

So, now I keep looking...

I'm not bitter, I just put a lot of time into this sale. 

Onward and upward!


----------



## slowp

I'd rather see somebody lose after doing a lot of study, than somebody overbid and then be stuck with it. The latter means for a lot of prodding on my part to get the work done to contract standards. It means attempts to cut corners, and in the worst case, the purchaser walks away and leaves a mess. Yeah, there's financial deposits that can be used to clean it up, but it takes a lot of extra paperwork. 

Better get there earlier next time!


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> I'd rather see somebody lose after doing a lot of study, than somebody overbid and then be stuck with it. The latter means for a lot of prodding on my part to get the work done to contract standards. It means attempts to cut corners, and in the worst case, the purchaser walks away and leaves a mess. Yeah, there's financial deposits that can be used to clean it up, but it takes a lot of extra paperwork.
> 
> Better get there earlier next time!



Hopefully it goes good for the guy who bid it... He was there with his wife. He didn't look like a logger, but maybe he was?

The head forester I had been in contact with, and who ran the auction told me that I was the only one who had had a bunch of contact with him--to make sure my ducks were in a row.

The financial deposits wouldn't cover much... The bidders premium and bond doesn't make 500 bucks on this one.

I would have been early for the sale, but I got financing the last minute! About 1:30pm... That's why it was so close.


----------



## redprospector

I know how you feel. I don't know how many times I've put in a kajillion hours figuring a bid, walking the whole place on thinning projects to eliminate as many surprises as possible, figuring out a way to finance the operation untill money started rolling in, etc. etc. etc.
Only to be outbid by someone.
My favorite's are the guy's who drive up to to a thinning project up for bid, look at it out the window of the truck and say "yeah, I can do this job for $XXX and acre. There have been times I stayed buisy finishing up after these guy's (but that cost extra ).

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> I know how you feel. I don't know how many times I've put in a kajillion hours figuring a bid, walking the whole place on thinning projects to eliminate as many surprises as possible, figuring out a way to finance the operation untill money started rolling in, etc. etc. etc.
> Only to be outbid by someone.
> My favorite's are the guy's who drive up to to a thinning project up for bid, look at it out the window of the truck and say "yeah, I can do this job for $XXX and acre. There have been times I stayed buisy finishing up after these guy's (but that cost extra ).
> 
> Andy



I don't want to sound like a jerk... But I'm kind of hoping that guy is one of the ones I heard about, that intended to do the job with his pickup truck. Then I might get a call to go do the job?

I've done bidding (commercial and residential building) for the last five years, and it seems the timber industry is the same... Lot's of footwork for a "maybe" on getting the job.

I did enjoy the process of learning about FS procedure, and how a cash sale bid works... At least I got something with that. I was just on the phone with another Forester today, and learning about other types of sales... They are doing a lot more with 'Stewardship Sales' up here I guess. There's one I'd really like to bid, but it won't go-off until 2011.

The Forester I spoke with today said they had about 30 sales ready to go for this summer, guess I'll keep my eye out... The biggest PIA is the stinking startup costs to start these sales.


----------



## redprospector

I prefer doing private land, and state forestry funded stuff. I'm actually dealing with people, rather than a bureaucracy. Way less paper work.
I haven't done anything with the FS in years, but I may have to change my ways soon. State forestry said today that they wouldn't have any money to fund the job's they have ready to bid until hopefully July. This money is usually available in Feb.
Of course the FS dosen't have much of anything on the table here right now either.
By July I'll be broke enough that I won't be able to hire a crew. I'll just have to do it my self.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> I don't want to sound like a jerk... But I'm kind of hoping that guy is one of the ones I heard about, that intended to do the job with his pickup truck. Then I might get a call to go do the job?
> 
> I've done bidding (commercial and residential building) for the last five years, and it seems the timber industry is the same... Lot's of footwork for a "maybe" on getting the job.
> 
> I did enjoy the process of learning about FS procedure, and how a cash sale bid works... At least I got something with that. I was just on the phone with another Forester today, and learning about other types of sales... They are doing a lot more with 'Stewardship Sales' up here I guess. There's one I'd really like to bid, but it won't go-off until 2011.
> 
> The Forester I spoke with today said they had about 30 sales ready to go for this summer, guess I'll keep my eye out... The biggest PIA is the stinking startup costs to start these sales.



Yeah, I love those "pickup truck loggers".
I had a guy bid a thinning project at 1/2 of what I had bid, and I bid pretty tight to keep my guy's buisy. This guy owned a chainsaw and a 1/2 ton 2 wd pickup. When he realized he couldn't do the job with what he had he called me. He couldn't figure out why I wouldn't clean up his mess for less than he had bid. 
He wound up walking off the job, and I got it but for more than my origional bid, since he had it so jack-strawed. The land owner had paid him 1/2 up front. I felt for him, but all I could tell him was that you don't alway's get what you pay for, but you'll always pay for what you get.

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> Yeah, I love those "pickup truck loggers".
> I had a guy bid a thinning project at 1/2 of what I had bid, and I bid pretty tight to keep my guy's buisy. This guy owned a chainsaw and a 1/2 ton 2 wd pickup. When he realized he couldn't do the job with what he had he called me. He couldn't figure out why I wouldn't clean up his mess for less than he had bid.
> He wound up walking off the job, and I got it but for more than my origional bid, since he had it so jack-strawed. The land owner had paid him 1/2 up front. I felt for him, but all I could tell him was that you don't alway's get what you pay for, but you'll always pay for what you get.
> 
> Andy



I don't know what would happen if the guy walked away being an FS job... They'd probably put it out for bid again.

I'd like to get some private sales... Most homeowners aren't logging their property right now. I could probably do a thin, and give them a share of the tonnage.

The most I could offer to pay them for their timber and slash would be 4 bucks a ton. Won't have a lot of people knocking my door down for that I reckon.

What would you pay a homeowner right now for hogfuel and pulp? I'm talking good sawlogs and veneer too... But sold at pulp and hogfuel prices.


----------



## slowp

Yes, it pays to be civil to other bidders. On our large sales, the smaller operators who bid and lost, often end up logging it for the winner. 

Be sure and read up on stewardship sales. Region 6 has a web page about them. I think...They take a little different thinking when putting together a bid/proposal. Here, you need to write a proposal describing how you plan to do the work, in addition to your bid. The loggers had never dealt with this kind of contracting and had to learn that writing a sentence something "We plan to log it and then do the work." was not sufficient. I think the FS put on some classes on how to write proposals.


----------



## Metals406

slowp said:


> Yes, it pays to be civil to other bidders. On our large sales, the smaller operators who bid and lost, often end up logging it for the winner.
> 
> Be sure and read up on stewardship sales. Region 6 has a web page about them. I think...They take a little different thinking when putting together a bid/proposal. Here, you need to write a proposal describing how you plan to do the work, in addition to your bid. The loggers had never dealt with this kind of contracting and had to learn that writing a sentence something "We plan to log it and then do the work." was not sufficient. I think the FS put on some classes on how to write proposals.



The Stewardship Sales were described like that to me by James the forester yesterday. He didn't mention the written proposal thing, but mentioned the logger telling the forester how they want to log it, and then the FS has to decide if they like it. I bet it is a written thing, and he just didn't mention it. What I like about some of our local Stewardship Sales, is they mix some pre-commercial thinning in with it... That way a guy can do part of the sale and get paid, instead of having to get paid from stumpage, and have all the operating costs on his dime upfront.


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> I don't know what would happen if the guy walked away being an FS job... They'd probably put it out for bid again.
> 
> I'd like to get some private sales... Most homeowners aren't logging their property right now. I could probably do a thin, and give them a share of the tonnage.
> 
> The most I could offer to pay them for their timber and slash would be 4 bucks a ton. Won't have a lot of people knocking my door down for that I reckon.
> 
> What would you pay a homeowner right now for hogfuel and pulp? I'm talking good sawlogs and veneer too... But sold at pulp and hogfuel prices.



I don't usually pay for wood. There is no hogfuel market, or bio-fuel market, or log market, I doubt there will be a firewood market this year either.

Most of the land owners want their properties to look like a park when I'm done, so I charge them for doing the job, and then charge them to haul the wood off. 
I said I don't usually because right now I'm milling some log's that came off of a real good customers property last summer. They are claiming a tree farm, and need to show something on paper for the gubermint. We were going to haul them to the mill, and split what they brought, but all the mills decided to shut down permanently before we got them hauled. :censored:
Since I'm such a nice guy (and I didn't have anything else going on), I agreed to give them $25 a thousand if I could set up the mill on their property. Now I just hope I can peddle the lumber.

I'll never learn. :bang:

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> I don't usually pay for wood. There is no hogfuel market, or bio-fuel market, or log market, I doubt there will be a firewood market this year either.
> 
> Most of the land owners want their properties to look like a park when I'm done, so I charge them for doing the job, and then charge them to haul the wood off.
> I said I don't usually because right now I'm milling some log's that came off of a real good customers property last summer. They are claiming a tree farm, and need to show something on paper for the gubermint. We were going to haul them to the mill, and split what they brought, but all the mills decided to shut down permanently before we got them hauled. :censored:
> Since I'm such a nice guy (and I didn't have anything else going on), I agreed to give them $25 a thousand if I could set up the mill on their property. Now I just hope I can peddle the lumber.
> 
> I'll never learn. :bang:
> 
> Andy



I sure hope someone will buy your lumber! Hopefully someone locally is planning a remodel, and want to save some cash on lumber.


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> I sure hope someone will buy your lumber! Hopefully someone locally is planning a remodel, and want to save some cash on lumber.



Hahaha. Yep, someone local is remodeling their house. My wife is my best customer right now, but she dosen't pay too well.

















We're running out of places to use it though, so I hope someone starts another remodel soon. 

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Yep, someone local is remodeling their house. My wife is my best customer right now, but she dosen't pay too well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're running out of places to use it though, so I hope someone starts another remodel soon.
> 
> Andy



Dang Andy! That looks real nice! I like the Herringbone pattern on the back wall there. That door looks fantastic as well! Did you run it through a router table and T&G the boards?


----------



## bullbuck

yeah andy,i got a full on remodel going right now i would like to look at what you have?but i am also rubbin two pennys together and it aint lightin up worth a ####!you down the street there?:monkey:


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Dang Andy! That looks real nice! I like the Herringbone pattern on the back wall there. That door looks fantastic as well! Did you run it through a router table and T&G the boards?



Thanks, I did the T&G for the wall's & celing on a router table. The door is 1 3/8" so I did it on the table saw. The house is over 100 years old, we had to take it out all the way to the dirt (rock). So far I've milled every stick that went into it but 12 2x6's.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> yeah andy,i got a full on remodel going right now i would like to look at what you have?but i am also rubbin two pennys together and it aint lightin up worth a ####!you down the street there?:monkey:



Come on over and take a look. It's our house below Scotty Gas. I'll be there tomorrow laying a little tile.

Oh, and I'm sure your credit is good, *Bwahahahahaha.*

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

good as it has ever been!i thought you were down here on chatauqua?who,s this other guy with the asv mastocator?


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> good as it has ever been!i thought you were down here on chatauqua?who,s this other guy with the asv mastocator?



We're living on chautaugua right now, while we do the never ending remodel.
There's no way I'd tackle what we are doing to that house, and try to live there too. 
Before my dad died, he told me that I couldn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I told him that I was just trying to make a nice leather bag. 

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

fair enough!i thought that looked to be your stuff,would definately like to look at your materials though,cash only,haha,try to stop by the other house tomorrow...


----------



## bullbuck

sorry for hijacking your thread metals, but took the loader to the beginning of the "stewardship unit"that will apparently prove our worthiness of further units?i think this is where the money is right now..at least here...


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> sorry for hijacking your thread metals, but took the loader to the beginning of the "stewardship unit"that will apparently prove our worthiness of further units?if these digits pan out things could definately be looking up!keep your eye peeled...



Oh yeah, this thread is about skidder's. I've got to learn to stay on topic. :bang:
Ok, I started my 440 Wednesday but just to keep the juices flowing cuz I didn't have nothing to skid. 

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

theres a few 50"fir accross the street?just sharpene my 460,do you think they would miss em?:monkey:


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> theres a few 50"fir accross the street?just sharpene my 460,do you think they would miss em?:monkey:



Hahaha. Yep, about the time the first one hit the ground.

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

good thing everyone that "lives here"is safe in bed back in california!lol


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> sorry for hijacking your thread metals, but took the loader to the beginning of the "stewardship unit"that will apparently prove our worthiness of further units?i think this is where the money is right now..at least here...





redprospector said:


> Oh yeah, this thread is about skidder's. I've got to learn to stay on topic. :bang:
> Ok, I started my 440 Wednesday but just to keep the juices flowing cuz I didn't have nothing to skid.
> 
> Andy



No sweat boys! 

All threads take the normal path of a common conversation... A little rabbit trail here and there. 

bullbuck, I agree about the 'stewardship' thing 100%... Check out the one in the link below... Called "Hemlock Elk Fuels Reduction and Forest Health". I think that would be a sweat one to get... I have a call into the Planning Team Leader on that one to see if the sale went up for bid yet? I sure hope it hasn't!! http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/flathead/nepa/nepa.htm


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## bullbuck

that r.e.a. is huge!plenty of room to get a piece of that pie i would assume?you gotta skid those watersheds uphill though?:monkey:


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> that r.e.a. is huge!plenty of room to get a piece of that pie i would assume?you gotta skid those watersheds uphill though?:monkey:



That's the beauty with those sales... You get to tell them about all their bad ideas!! hahahaha


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## Metals406

Not too bad for the steeps... A lot of coolies though. Here's a screen shot of the sale area via Google Earth. The back part of the sale gets steep, and you can see the "sets" from old line machine jobs.

Google Earth *47° 25' 54.64" N* *-113° 48' 21.72" W*


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## bullbuck

does that mean that big brother is asking us for advice?wow never thought i would see the day when "the experts"would refer back to the hands on professionals?it must be a trick...


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## bullbuck

i know its montana,but that looks flat as a pancake!there must be canyons in there?


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i know its montana,but that looks flat as a pancake!there must be canyons in there?



Well, it's about as flat as it gets here... If you zoom in with Google Earth, you can see there are some substantial little hills and coolies... Then, of course you have the Mission Mountain Wilderness right there--that's super steep, rugged country!


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## bullbuck

ya im thinking i see a triangular clearcut from the lowest of the steeps there?high lead,along with a couple other partial cuts?


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> ya im thinking i see a triangular clearcut from the lowest of the steeps there?high lead,along with a couple other partial cuts?



Are you using Google to look at it? Google Earth is free, and fun to use. You can look at stuff all over the world.

I use it to scout promising looking elk spots.


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## bullbuck

tell you what i dont really have a clue what im looking at but,im 33 been doing this stuff for awhile and i am seeing in the next two years a significant change in forestry,and if you can convince em its low impact,thats how you are gonna get projects...


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## bullbuck

man you are computer savvy,im not real slick on computer but i will check it out,seems like it would save alot of groundwork


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## bullbuck

by the way mescalero apaches have some of the biggest bulls in the world right in my backyard,for a price!and no you dont want to know how much.


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> by the way mescalero apaches have some of the biggest bulls in the world right in my backyard,for a price!and no you dont want to know how much.



I've seen pics of them NM bulls! Pretty big suckers!

I'll just spend the 30 bucks on my over the counter tag, and chase them buggers around the woods every year.


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## bullbuck

i agree,them big old ones no good eating they only for trophy guys,but those young lightweight cows,you can damn near eat that meat right off the bone!hmm im hungry now...business wise though im looking at starting up my own gig,you have helped me a bit maybe i can return the favor someday,im gonna go check the fridge now...


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i agree,them big old ones no good eating they only for trophy guys,but those young lightweight cows,you can damn near eat that meat right off the bone!hmm im hungry now...business wise though im looking at starting up my own gig,you have helped me a bit maybe i can return the favor someday,im gonna go check the fridge now...



I'm grabbing a bite to eat, and talking with the wife... I'll be back on here in a few.


----------



## bullbuck

well started the first 120 acre stewardship unit today,got our two d6cs goin waiting on the grappleskid for tomorrow,alot of sorting i was stuck on the loader most of the day between loading then sorting plenty to do,they want all the limbs skidded in they wont even let us limb the first 33'we can buck it out though,they want everything skidded in,gonna need a full time loaderman until we streamline the decking end of things,through the tribe 1"to6"inch one part of contract(we did not get)gets drop lop,6"to9"gets fell and brought in i set it back to catpile,saw logs go on the truck,saw some figures on pj'spaperwork today not quite sure what those numbers were but all of them looked good,keep your eyes on that stewardship gig this is the most optimistic i have been in over two years...


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> well started the first 120 acre stewardship unit today,got our two d6cs goin waiting on the grappleskid for tomorrow,alot of sorting i was stuck on the loader most of the day between loading then sorting plenty to do,they want all the limbs skidded in they wont even let us limb the first 33'we can buck it out though,they want everything skidded in,gonna need a full time loaderman until we streamline the decking end of things,through the tribe 1"to6"inch one part of contract(we did not get)gets drop lop,6"to9"gets fell and brought in i set it back to catpile,saw logs go on the truck,saw some figures on pj'spaperwork today not quite sure what those numbers were but all of them looked good,keep your eyes on that stewardship gig this is the most optimistic i have been in over two years...



NICE! I'll be calling the FS again tomorrow to bug the chit out of them.:greenchainsaw:


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## bullbuck

keep on em!wether they realize it or not,when the loggers go so do the f.s.timber guys,a few of them around here see this, and seem to be stepping it up a notch,i hope you have the same luck


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## slowp

bullbuck said:


> keep on em!wether they realize it or not,when the loggers go so do the f.s.timber guys,a few of them around here see this, and seem to be stepping it up a notch,i hope you have the same luck



True. 

What is wrong? I was marking right of way yesterday and feeling sympathy for the cutters who will have to cut it. There's some nice 30" DBH stuff but it is so wolfy, I had trouble getting paint to go through the limbs and stick to the tree. Poor boys. They'll have to cut their way in to get to the bole.

Keep on posting about stewardship. I need to learn too!


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## bullbuck

i will,have been asking around getting more details as we go, i will also try to include some pics eventually...


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## Metals406

Called Mike today... He said they have a small 160 MBF sale coming up, and they probably wont see much interest in it, because it's so small... Lord willing, I can be the only bidder?

I Google Earthed the sale area, and it looks like all Lodgepole. If nothing is worth hauling out of there, that's when I have Kevin come in and grind it all on site, and have him give me something like 18 a ton?

That nice Swan Blowdown Sale (6 MMBF?) might be getting delayed from special interest groups trying to appeal/sue... Those ####ing jerk-ass enviros piss me right off!:censored::censored::censored:


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## bullbuck

say a load of green logs minus the truck weight is roughly 50,000 lbs,getting paid by the ton you will be around 450 per load if my math is right,and you would just cut and skid,sounds allright you could probably cut and skid a load or two a day?:monkey:


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## Metals406

Just found two job listings for work in the woods... Choker setter job for $15-$16 an hour... Both jobs are for same company.

Sawyer, $157.50 a day, plus $22.50 a day for expenses. :jawdrop:

That better be for a 6 hour day!


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## Greystoke

Metals406 said:


> Just found two job listings for work in the woods... Choker setter job for $15-$16 an hour... Both jobs are for same company.
> 
> Sawyer, $157.50 a day, plus $22.50 a day for expenses. :jawdrop:
> 
> That better be for a 6 hour day!



Pathetic! My first Professional Timber Falling job was in '95 in the Bitterroot; I had just turned 18 (still very green, but I could get the job done); I was getting $175 for 7 hours. Last day wage I worked for was in Southeast Alaska in '05; $350 for 6 hours plus they paid for pickup gas, and saw gas and oil. It is getting sad out there.

Cody


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## Metals406

tarzanstree said:


> Pathetic! My first Professional Timber Falling job was in '95 in the Bitterroot; I had just turned 18 (still very green, but I could get the job done); I was getting $175 for 7 hours. Last day wage I worked for was in Southeast Alaska in '05; $350 for 6 hours plus they paid for pickup gas, and saw gas and oil. It is getting sad out there.
> 
> Cody



Yeah... It makes me wonder if that's gypo on my numbers too? A 6 hour day would be 30 bucks an hour... But, that would be minimum wage if I had to do my own comp, insurance, saw gas, ect.


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## bullbuck

guess it depends on what you are used to getting paid?157 plus gas sounds damn good to me!down in these parts we get paid by the piece,80 cents a count,two count for 33' and 25' logs one count for 16'no count for 8' logs you gotta get with it to cover expenses and tax...oh yeah this is self employment too


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## redprospector

Hmm.
If they pay $16 an hour for a choker setter ($128 a day), and all you have to bring is your lunch. Or for $52 dollars more a day you can provide a saw, a back up saw, a pair of chaps, hard hat, saw gas, bar oil, maintenance, parts, and chain for those saws, your truck, fuel for said truck, plus insurance, and then you can still bring your own lunch. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me. 

I'm with bullbuck, $180 a day wouldn't be bad around here (it's a depressed area ), but a choker setter ain't gonna make no $16 bucks an hour either.

Andy


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> guess it depends on what you are used to getting paid?157 plus gas sounds damn good to me!down in these parts we get paid by the piece,80 cents a count,two count for 33' and 25' logs one count for 16'no count for 8' logs you gotta get with it to cover expenses and tax...oh yeah this is self employment too





redprospector said:


> Hmm.
> If they pay $16 an hour for a choker setter ($128 a day), and all you have to bring is your lunch. Or for $52 dollars more a day you can provide a saw, a back up saw, a pair of chaps, hard hat, saw gas, bar oil, maintenance, parts, and chain for those saws, your truck, fuel for said truck, plus insurance, and then you can still bring your own lunch. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me.
> 
> I'm with bullbuck, $180 a day wouldn't be bad around here (it's a depressed area ), but a choker setter ain't gonna make no $16 bucks an hour either.
> 
> Andy



Yeah... I'm not saying the choker wage is bad... When I quit setting in the late 90's I was making 11 an hour.

I'm gonna call on both of them tomorrow and see whats up?.. They're probably already filled.


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## bullbuck

is that settin chokes for a line machine or cat?


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> is that settin chokes for a line machine or cat?



*From the description, I'm gonna say line machine...*



> Wage $15.00 - $16.00 Hourly Location COLUMBIA FALLS, FLATHEAD, MT, 59912
> Choker Setter. Permanent full time. Wage is $15 ~ $16 / hour depending on experience. Must have at least 24 months experience, able to do very physical work, be quick on feet and able to run up and down mountain sides all day long, have a hard hat and good boots. Must also be able to work quickly and safely, have a good attitude and be a team player. Must have a contact phone and transportation to employer in Columbia Falls. Employer states terrain can be steep and hard, so good physical conditioning is essential. Transportation arrangements may be available to certain job sites. Lifting up to 50lbs.





> Wage $157.00 Daily Location COLUMBIA FALLS, FLATHEAD, MT, 59912
> Sawyer. Permanent full time position working 40 hours/ week, Monday ~ Friday. Wage is $157.50/ day plus $22.50/ day for expenses. Must have 2 years sawyer experience, own transportation and own equipment. Must also have or be able to obtain a current First Aid and CPR Certification. Current work location can be obtained from employer. Benefits after 1 year of employment. Lifting up to 50lbs.


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## bullbuck

i would rather cut myself, given the choice...i hope that you get the job whatever it may be?count my blessings every day just to have my job.there are alot of very hungry people right now...best of luck


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i would rather cut myself, given the choice...i hope that you get the job whatever it may be?count my blessings every day just to have my job.there are alot of very hungry people right now...best of luck



I'm going to check it out minimally... I still want to see about that Stewardship contract coming up the end of this month.

Thanks for the well wishes!


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## bullbuck

no doubt!do everything you can to get that!there is enough money in the thinnin right now to put a guy in business,i have seen some numbers on paper and yep stewardship is where its at...we are about 7/8 completed on our first 120 acre unit and things are going smooth loading three a day,turning alot of logs because they all come in tree length,other than that no downside as of yet...


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> no doubt!do everything you can to get that!there is enough money in the thinnin right now to put a guy in business,i have seen some numbers on paper and yep stewardship is where its at...we are about 7/8 completed on our first 120 acre unit and things are going smooth loading three a day,turning alot of logs because they all come in tree length,other than that no downside as of yet...



Yeah, they seem like a way better sale than just a straight up timber buy. They're a more diversified sale, some clearing, some thinning, and some timber buying.

I'll have to see how it goes... The biggest ass kicker on doing these FS jobs, is trying to come up with the startup capital.


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## bullbuck

i hear you,i just bought a house and once i remodel it out of pocket, hopefully within one year from now i can have it reappraised and hopefully there is enough equity that i can lien against less than half value,so my necks not all the way out,this is my plan for the startup of my own small company...its risky but i gotta try


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i hear you,i just bought a house and once i remodel it out of pocket, hopefully within one year from now i can have it reappraised and hopefully there is enough equity that i can lien against less than half value,so my necks not all the way out,this is my plan for the startup of my own small company...its risky but i gotta try



I started my welding shop on a wing and a prayer... I have learned a crapload about owning a business since then.

I went into it thinking it would be awesome being the boss... I know better now.


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## bullbuck

i hate being the boss,my boss now wants me to boss and i wont do it,not for what hes paying!same as what he paid me 15 years ago,but anyways the numbers i saw on paper is the only reason i would even think about this,i just hope that in a year or two things still look good..


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i hate being the boss,my boss now wants me to boss and i wont do it,not for what hes paying!same as what he paid me 15 years ago,but anyways the numbers i saw on paper is the only reason i would even think about this,i just hope that in a year or two things still look good..



It's a lot of work being the boss... I can't even count the sleepless nights. It feels good to be an Indian every once in a while, rather than a Chief.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of rewards to being the man... But there are a lot of bad things as well.

I developed a good case of insomnia since I went on my own in 2004... It drives my wife nuts! I'm not fond of it myself.


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## bullbuck

i guess there is a give and take to everything,i think that i can stay small,ideally me and one employee(sounds good right?)i do not want to get rich,i would just like to move forward instead of spinning wheels,and i have lots of people around who will help,this makes a world of difference...


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i guess there is a give and take to everything,i think that i can stay small,ideally me and one employee(sounds good right?)i do not want to get rich,i would just like to move forward instead of spinning wheels,and i have lots of people around who will help,this makes a world of difference...



I say go for it! You and I aren't getting any younger.


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## bullbuck

that is one thing that is certain...


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> that is one thing that is certain...



What I meant was, you don't want to be 45 years old, and look back and regret not giving it a try... Even if it doesn't work out in the end, at least you can say you had a go.

I've come into contact with a lot of Saturday morning quarterbacks, that are full of a lot of advice and criticism... And they've never owned a business, and they wouldn't even try--but it doesn't stop them from criticizing.


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## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> i hate being the boss,my boss now wants me to boss and i wont do it,not for what hes paying!same as what he paid me 15 years ago,but anyways the numbers i saw on paper is the only reason i would even think about this,i just hope that in a year or two things still look good..



I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, but remember, you can make anything look good on paper. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying be sure to do all your own homework before investing the equity in your home. It's tough, with one employee you're stuck on the job at all times because you can't leave one man alone in the woods. With 2 employee's you'll be lucky if they get anything done while you're gone looking at the next job. On the weekends while your employee's are going to the lake, or riding dirt bikes and having fun, you'll be doing the maintenance and repairs on equipment so they can go to work on Monday.
I want to encourage you in this, but I want you to walk into it with both eye's open, and no rose colored glasses.

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, but remember, you can make anything look good on paper. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying be sure to do all your own homework before investing the equity in your home. It's tough, with one employee you're stuck on the job at all times because you can't leave one man alone in the woods. With 2 employee's you'll be lucky if they get anything done while you're gone looking at the next job. On the weekends while your employee's are going to the lake, or riding dirt bikes and having fun, you'll be doing the maintenance and repairs on equipment so they can go to work on Monday.
> I want to encourage you in this, but I want you to walk into it with both eye's open, and no rose colored glasses.
> 
> Andy



Excellent advice Andy!


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Excellent advice Andy!



It's just one of the lesson's I learned while getting my degree from the school of hard knock's. 
I've seen a lot of guy's who were really good hands start out on their own without looking at everything there is to look at, only to loose everything they have. Bullbuck has the ability to do as well as anyone in this business, if he really, really, really want's to.

Andy


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## bullbuck

you are exactly right,i do not want to try and pull this off in my fortys,the path that i have chosen is clear i will continue to work indefinately...so i might as well work for myself,i have always been a keen listener when asking old timers for info,i have been doing the same when asking my friends about being business owners themselves,and they dont neccesarily reccomend it but at the same time they have the all the nice things i would like,but as you said they might not sleep much if at all...might as well give it a go, i dont sleep worth a shirt anyways! thanks for the reinforcement.


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> It's just one of the lesson's I learned while getting my degree from the school of hard knock's.
> I've seen a lot of guy's who were really good hands start out on their own without looking at everything there is to look at, only to loose everything they have. Bullbuck has the ability to do as well as anyone in this business, if he really, really, really want's to.
> 
> Andy



Exactly... That's been my biggest hurdle being in business for myself. It's taken me 5 years of mistakes trying to figure things out... It's really hard to think of every aspect of a business, and bidding a job.

Owning a business isn't for the faint of heart... There have been many times I wanted to give up, or I got depressed, or I'd lose a lot of money.

You have to really be a self motivator as well... That's another thing I struggle with.


----------



## bullbuck

that is really good advice andy,i have at least one year and maybe two before i can even think of purchasing anything,so this will give me lots of time to research...i already have a stack of paper an inch thick of my "research",the greatest thing i have going for me is hands on knowledge,but that alone does not make things work,(one employee) i know i am dreaming there but i do want to stay small and remain very diverse,i only want to keep logging because it is what i like to do but,i must keep an open mind and follow the money where it leads...it may not even be logging?but i cant see stopping now been in it too long


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> you are exactly right,i do not want to try and pull this off in my fortys,the path that i have chosen is clear i will continue to work indefinately...so i might as well work for myself,i have always been a keen listener when asking old timers for info,i have been doing the same when asking my friends about being business owners themselves,and they dont neccesarily reccomend it but at the same time they have the all the nice things i would like,but as you said they might not sleep much if at all...might as well give it a go, i dont sleep worth a shirt anyways! thanks for the reinforcement.



It's not so bad pulling it off in your forty's, if it's what you have your heart set on (I did.....er...am). Remember that those "nice things" are either a result of years of hard work, or an indication of being over extended. Having a business is like having a jellous wife, if you take your mind off of her for a second she will get your attention. 
I've been self-employed most of my life. The longest I've ever worked for anyone else was the 3 years I worked for White Sands Forest Products. So I'll never tell you not to do it, but there are easier way's to make a living.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Exactly... That's been my biggest hurdle being in business for myself. It's taken me 5 years of mistakes trying to figure things out... It's really hard to think of every aspect of a business, and bidding a job.
> 
> Owning a business isn't for the faint of heart... There have been many times I wanted to give up, or I got depressed, or I'd lose a lot of money.
> 
> You have to really be a self motivator as well... That's another thing I struggle with.



Truer words were never spoken. 
My business is a lot different than logging, but I still get to cut & skid trees.
When things are good, you're on top of the world. But that's when I tend to get over confident and screw up somewhere. When things are not so good (like right now) is when I have a hard time motivating myself, and I'm the only one there is to motivate me. Lot's of up's and down's.

Andy


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## bullbuck

i also struggle with self motivation i have to have someone to work with or i get sidetracked...i got a couple buddys that wont go home until they are damn sure they got something done..it is all a bout getting a solid crew that looks out for one another...and it keeps you going as to not let them down either. i can say all i want but i know enough that when i actualy get there it will be nothing like i expected...


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## Metals406

I always expected my wife to help motivate me... Yeah, I was pissing in the wind there.

You have to motivate yourself for sure... You'd be AMAZED at the amount of negative input you'll get from friends and family!


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> that is really good advice andy,i have at least one year and maybe two before i can even think of purchasing anything,so this will give me lots of time to research...i already have a stack of paper an inch thick of my "research",the greatest thing i have going for me is hands on knowledge,but that alone does not make things work,(one employee) i know i am dreaming there but i do want to stay small and remain very diverse,i only want to keep logging because it is what i like to do but,i must keep an open mind and follow the money where it leads...it may not even be logging?but i cant see stopping now been in it too long



You've got the right idea in my opinion. Diversity is the key to surviving in times like this, but it can also run you ragged if you want to stay small (like me). In my opinion, the best advice that I can give you is to borrow as little money as possible. Buy decent used equipment and get it paid for ASAP at all cost. Right now everything I have is paid for, not pretty, but paid for, except one credit card, but that's another story. If I had to I could put it all in moth ball's and go get a job at the convenience store to put bean's on the table. Not that I will, but I could if I had to. Just another form of diversity.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> I always expected my wife to help motivate me... Yeah, I was pissing in the wind there.
> 
> You have to motivate yourself for sure... You'd be AMAZED at the amount of negative input you'll get from friends and family!



Yep, I love my wife. I wouldn't take 10 million dollars for her.........................But I wouldn't give a nickle for a box car load just like her. 
You are the only one that you can depend on to motivate you.

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

you have got a nice setup andy and paid for, now thats the real kicker.good job,maybe i can say the same one day...


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> you have got a nice setup andy and paid for, now thats the real kicker.good job,maybe i can say the same one day...



You married with kids?


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## bullbuck

not yet...this also plays in my favor...i think?


----------



## bullbuck

although if i could be so lucky to score a gainfully employed woman that sure would be nice,dual income would be great...


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> not yet...this also plays in my favor...i think?



You are correct, single is a far better position to start from... I was already married with two kids, which does make it harder.


----------



## skidsteer.ca

If you looking for a machine check the auctions in Canada. 200 mills have closed here in the last couple years and logging equipment is a dime a dozen, unless its is alomost new, then its $.50 on a dollar.
Check Richie Brothers or like auctions. We bought a 648 d dual function site unseen in Thunder Bay 2 years back for 6200.00
The tires and chains are worth that used, and despite showing high hours it seem to be a sound machine that would be a good candidate for a part timer. I'm sure it has had many rebuilt components do to the hours. We had another one just like it and thought it was worth it for the parts. 

After we won the bid we had to decide on choice of 2 based on small pictures because you bid inside now instead of out in the ring. Had no intention of buying it until it went for nothing, Picked ours then went outside to see what we had done.

It needs center pin work and brakes, but basically works and runs good, 3 good tires and 2 good chains. I took it to my neighbours and re skidded 80 cords that the mill would not buy up off his swamp last spring and never missed a beat.
Ken


----------



## bullbuck

hey thanks i will definately check out those auction sites,i think i have my heart set on a t320 skidsteer with an eagle talon grapple setup,i have seen that bobcat put out a steeltrack setup for these too,boy i think that would real nice for in the woods...but i am still quite aways out forbuying anything but it certainly couldnt hurt to do a little shopping...thanks for your input


----------



## redprospector

Just remember that Bobcat wasn't made to skid logs. They are a lot slower at getting log's out than what you're used to. I did it with a Bobcat 863 for several years, and it beat the old Case 310 I had before it, but some kind of skidder is a must in my opinion. If you're going to stay small (couple of guy's for help) it would be best to stay with equipment that you can move with whatever truck you have though. That way you're not out the money, or waiting on someone elses schedule to have it moved.

Oh yeah, don't plan on keeping equipment at your house. The village just sent me a certified letter telling me I have to move all of mine. 
I'm still trying to decide what I'm going to do, fight or run. I always did enjoy a good fight. If I decide to run, it won't be far..........or too long. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

well what i think i have planned is maybe getting contracts that pay you for the thinning and maybe you get some saw logs out?i do not plan to go commercial like george being as the mill is really done this time as in dismantled,i got a chance to run a t190 grapple last summer and i was thoroughly impressed,i used to think they were tinkertoys but that thing did just fine,really hard to flip i tested it pretty welland yeah i dont like that no equipment in the village rule one bit,you pay for that place and you should be able to park whatever the firk you want there!awww that pisses me off,did you know that old barb springer tried to get the use of chainsaws inside the village banned!well i tell you what if they want my chainsaw from me on my land they can come and get it!ill take a couple licks off the rakers just to meet them proper.


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> well what i think i have planned is maybe getting contracts that pay you for the thinning and maybe you get some saw logs out?i do not plan to go commercial like george being as the mill is really done this time as in dismantled,i got a chance to run a t190 grapple last summer and i was thoroughly impressed,i used to think they were tinkertoys but that thing did just fine,really hard to flip i tested it pretty welland yeah i dont like that no equipment in the village rule one bit,you pay for that place and you should be able to park whatever the firk you want there!awww that pisses me off,did you know that old barb springer tried to get the use of chainsaws inside the village banned!well i tell you what if they want my chainsaw from me on my land they can come and get it!ill take a couple licks off the rakers just to meet them proper.



Just a word on the T-190's... They're about worthless on packed snow! I got first hand experience on that one.

They're good in mud and other conditions, but no good on rocky ground... The rocks tear the tracks up.

ASV touts their machine as a better puller etc... I've never ran an ASV though.

I ran the poo out'a a TL-250 last summer on my job... That thing is a brute! It has Cat controls, and two speeds... You should have seen the size of granite boulders I was moving with it! 







*This video shows what I'm saying about the T-Series Bobcats...*

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JjYT8lQN6YU&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JjYT8lQN6YU&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## Metals406

Here's a video of the TL-240...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vuLREx-O73k&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vuLREx-O73k&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## bullbuck

been tryin to post but i type one finger at a time,i knew i should have stayed in school dammit!ok im over it,i dont know about the head to head push off there could be all kind of hydraulic wrangling going on there?i think a back to back push off would be a more fair challenge,and also the takeuchi has narrow tracks i would consider that an advantage in low traction situation..ok thats all the pescimism i can muster...thanks for post


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> been tryin to post but i type one finger at a time,i knew i should have stayed in school dammit!ok im over it,i dont know about the head to head push off there could be all kind of hydraulic wrangling going on there?i think a back to back push off would be a more fair challenge,and also the takeuchi has narrow tracks i would consider that an advantage in low traction situation..ok thats all the pescimism i can muster...thanks for post



I know the video of the skid steers going head to head looks setup... But we had one on our job in the winter, and it could barely get out of it's own way... The guy that bought it new was running it, and was so disappointed with it's winter performance, he was going to trade it in the following spring.


----------



## bullbuck

i definately believe your firsthand account,i shouldnt even talk im just a rookie in the skidsteer world,but apparently it doesnt snow here anymore?well not as much as it used to 90"a year,but rocks we definately have rocks,has anyone that you know ever run steel tracks on their skidsteer?


----------



## bullbuck

sorry i mean just like cat tracks i think they are fairly new?


----------



## redprospector

I don't think it would make any difference what machine they're on, in packed snow and ice rubber tracks are gonna suck. There is a company that makes stud's that screw into the rubber tracks though, now that might be interesting.

I've had both Bobcat, and ASV. I will have to say that as far as dry ground, and light mud traction the ASV has it hand's down. On Packed snow, and deep mud I'll have to give it to a regular old Bobcat with tires. Oh, don't forget to put a set of steel track's over those tires. The T series Bobcat's and the ASV's have a better center of gravity with the weight of the track systems. But I've had my old 863 in places that most folks couldn't carry a quart of oil.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> well what i think i have planned is maybe getting contracts that pay you for the thinning and maybe you get some saw logs out?i do not plan to go commercial like george being as the mill is really done this time as in dismantled,i got a chance to run a t190 grapple last summer and i was thoroughly impressed,i used to think they were tinkertoys but that thing did just fine,really hard to flip i tested it pretty welland yeah i dont like that no equipment in the village rule one bit,you pay for that place and you should be able to park whatever the firk you want there!awww that pisses me off,did you know that old barb springer tried to get the use of chainsaws inside the village banned!well i tell you what if they want my chainsaw from me on my land they can come and get it!ill take a couple licks off the rakers just to meet them proper.



Sound's like you're wanting to do the same thing I'm doing. Come on in, the water's fine (when there's any work).
That T190 is just a little less capacity than my old 863, and no they're not tinker toy's. But if you ever get in a bigger one like that T320 you're talking about, you'll ruin yourself as far as smaller machines.

Actually Barb isn't as bad as most around here think. When I was one of the village idiot's I gave her a copy of the Constitution, and reminded her that she had sworn an oath to uphold it. To my surprise she actually listened (sometimes). I figure when the village start's paying my property tax, then they can have a say in what happens on my property. I just hope they don't piss me off bad enough that I loose my mind, and run again.:jawdrop:

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

i got that t190 sideways on some frozen red dirt last fall,and it reacted very similiar to a d6c,shirt was happening way too firkin fast! i think theres most likely a give and take to all machines,but i appreciate all the info i can get!i will begin my takeuchi research they look like it had some pretty neat features,and that lifting force was insane on that thing!thnx(the windowshopper)lol


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> i got that t190 sideways on some frozen red dirt last fall,and it reacted very similiar to a d6c,shirt was happening way too firkin fast! i think theres most likely a give and take to all machines,but i appreciate all the info i can get!i will begin my takeuchi research they look like it had some pretty neat features,and that lifting force was insane on that thing!thnx(the windowshopper)lol



I looked at Takeuchi (or however it's spelled) several years ago. There wern't any dealers in the area, and it was going to be quite a wait for parts. Things may have changed though.
It' a 100 mile drive to the closest dealer for anything other than a chainsaw anyway though.

Andy


----------



## bullbuck

yeah it would be very similiar to what you have going,need not worry though i am only speculating markets,i may not even get off the ground?but i am gonna give it a go,forestry would be a plus but i really like the different attatchments bobcat offers,cause as you know all too well tree killin is a tough biz,sorry dint mean to speak ill of :bang:barb i never would have guessed you two getting along?me and my assumptions


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> yeah it would be very similiar to what you have going,need not worry though i am only speculating markets,i may not even get off the ground?but i am gonna give it a go,forestry would be a plus but i really like the different attatchments bobcat offers,cause as you know all too well tree killin is a tough biz,sorry dint mean to speak ill of :bang:barb i never would have guessed you two getting along?me and my assumptions



Chris, I don't worry about someone that know's what's going on getting in the business. I let my work speak for itself, as I know yours would too, and I enjoy working with other contractors who take pride in their work.

Don't worry about speaking ill of Barb either. I've done my fair share of it too.  We mostly agreed to disagree, but towards the end we started getting along. She had good intentions. But I hear tell, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

Andy


----------



## sILlogger

*don't know if we are still on the topic of skidders*

ive operated or worked around, operated most of them: (in order from smallest)
340D cable
440A cable x 2
440D turbo cable
540A cable
540A grapple
540B cable x 2
540B grapple x 2
540D turbo cable
540G cable
540GIII cable
548GII grapple
648D grapple x 2
450 Timberjack grapple
525 Cat grapple

i know i'm forgetting some.

nearly all were powershift

i've ran tire sizes of 16.9, 18.4, 23.1, 28, 30.5, 34, 36, 44

ask away and i'll tell you what i know


----------



## bullbuck

oh yeah skidders thats right....


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> oh yeah skidders thats right....


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> oh yeah skidders thats right....



Crap, I did it again.:bang:

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> Crap, I did it again.:bang:
> 
> Andy



We can talk about whatever we want in this thread boys ... Who wants in on some bewbs?

*Megan Fox*





She played in Transformers (2007), and in Transformers 2... Which I went to a midnight showing of last night... I got home at 3AM.

Mmmmm... Megan fox. :drool:


----------



## redprospector

Well, I love talkin' about bewbs, but I'll have to wait till the growler ain't around. 
I will say this. Her last name sure fit's. 

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> Well, I love talkin' about bewbs, but I'll have to wait till the growler ain't around.
> I will say this. Her last name sure fit's.
> 
> Andy



:agree2:


----------



## bullbuck

nice ! now we are getting somewhere!that girl is smokin hot,hey i dont know if you knew it or not andy but they filmed a couple scenes for transformers 2 down at the sawmill,i am pretty sure they did alot of the filming for 3 in this area too,as far as i am concerned just drop off megan and the rest of them can head back to hollywood!


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> nice ! now we are getting somewhere!that girl is smokin hot,hey i dont know if you knew it or not andy but they filmed a couple scenes for transformers 2 down at the sawmill,i am pretty sure they did alot of the filming for 3 in this area too,as far as i am concerned just drop off megan and the rest of them can head back to hollywood!



They're filming a 3rd Transformers movie already!!??


----------



## bullbuck

i am not sure...but i will bet that when the last one stopped rolling the next one started...when hollywood hits the public with something they like they milk that cow dry as quick as possible before anyone gets bored,megan sure does help with that boredom bit!


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i am not sure...but i will bet that when the last one stopped rolling the next one started...when hollywood hits the public with something they like they milk that cow dry as quick as possible before anyone gets bored,megan sure does help with that boredom bit!



Yes, yes she does.


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> i am not sure...but i will bet that when the last one stopped rolling the next one started...when hollywood hits the public with something they like they milk that cow dry as quick as possible before anyone gets bored,megan sure does help with that boredom bit!



I don't know which one it was, but they filmed some of one of them over on the res. They hired Jensen's and blew up some trees. They said it was quite a fiasco. They had them digging up big trees and moving them, digging holes to plant them in so it would be the scene they wanted when they blew them up. 
The chamber of commerce called me and said they were looking for someone to let them knock down some trees, and generally tear up some real estate.
I was working on a little 18 acre patch that the land owners wanted manicured. I just told them thanks, but no thanks.

Andy


----------



## Metals406

redprospector said:


> I don't know which one it was, but they filmed some of one of them over on the res. They hired Jensen's and blew up some trees. They said it was quite a fiasco. They had them digging up big trees and moving them, digging holes to plant them in so it would be the scene they wanted when they blew them up.
> The chamber of commerce called me and said they were looking for someone to let them knock down some trees, and generally tear up some real estate.
> I was working on a little 18 acre patch that the land owners wanted manicured. I just told them thanks, but no thanks.
> 
> Andy



Usually production companies pay really dang good though... Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr, filmed a move in the Park here... They called my cousin's secretary, and wanted a massage therapist on set to message Robin Williams between takes... My cousin runs a massage school.

She (the secretary) said she wasn't sure if he (my cousin) worked out of the office, and they hung up on her... My cousin found out later a therapist up in Bigfork got the gig, and made like $7,500 bucks in a couple weeks.

My cousin was pissed, and wanted to kill the secretary! LOL


----------



## bullbuck

yeah my buddy drove a water truck up there and got to witness all the gasoline explosions and stuff,said it was a good time,nothing really lit off where you should probly put it out or anything from what he said


----------



## bullbuck

i hate to be a stick in the mud,but i was a little upset when our governer basically gave hollywood the keys to the state,my sister told me everything in las cruces has been bought up by californians,and i see the infiltration all around us,they can sell a 1 bedroom in cali. for enough to buyout our whole neighborhood...


----------



## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> Usually production companies pay really dang good though... Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr, filmed a move in the Park here... They called my cousin's secretary, and wanted a massage therapist on set to message Robin Williams between takes... My cousin runs a massage school.
> 
> She (the secretary) said she wasn't sure if he (my cousin) worked out of the office, and they hung up on her... My cousin found out later a therapist up in Bigfork got the gig, and made like $7,500 bucks in a couple weeks.
> 
> My cousin was pissed, and wanted to kill the secretary! LOL



Might have been some money in it, but the land owners weren't interested. They asked me if I would guarantee that I could make it look as good as the last piece I did for them after the "Transformers" got through, and I had to say no.

Andy


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> i hate to be a stick in the mud,but i was a little upset when our governer basically gave hollywood the keys to the state,my sister told me everything in las cruces has been bought up by californians,and i see the infiltration all around us,they can sell a 1 bedroom in cali. for enough to buyout our whole neighborhood...



Yeah, I know what you mean.
It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't try to change everything to be just like where they came from once they get here. They see our little mountain as utopia when they first come through town, but when they move here they want to change it.  Might as well face it, we've been Californicated (in other words We're F#####).

Andy


----------



## Gologit

redprospector said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean.
> It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't try to change everything to be just like where they came from once they get here. They see our little mountain as utopia when they first come through town, but when they move here they want to change it.  Might as well face it, we've been Californicated (in other words We're F#####).
> 
> Andy



I'd get really upset about all this "Californicated" talk...if all of you weren't so damn right.  We even get it in our _own_ state. They move up to the north end of the state for the same reasons they move to Oregon or Washington, or your part of the country. We have a lot of names for them but there aren't any that I could get past the AS censors.

LOL...When I go up north for the PNW GTG Slowp said she'd loan me a set of Washington license plates. People up there really don't like Californians and I can't say as I blame them much.

Now...to get this thread back on topic...I saw a skidder yesterday.


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> i hate to be a stick in the mud,but i was a little upset when our governer basically gave hollywood the keys to the state,my sister told me everything in las cruces has been bought up by californians,and i see the infiltration all around us,they can sell a 1 bedroom in cali. for enough to buyout our whole neighborhood...





redprospector said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean.
> It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't try to change everything to be just like where they came from once they get here. They see our little mountain as utopia when they first come through town, but when they move here they want to change it.  Might as well face it, we've been Californicated (in other words We're F#####).
> 
> Andy





Gologit said:


> I'd get really upset about all this "Californicated" talk...if all of you weren't so damn right. We even get it in our _own_ state. They move up to the north end of the state for the same reasons they move to Oregon or Washington, or your part of the country. We have a lot of names for them but there aren't any that I could get past the AS censors.
> 
> LOL...When I go up north for the PNW GTG Slowp said she'd loan me a set of Washington license plates. People up there really don't like Californians and I can't say as I blame them much.
> 
> Now...to get this thread back on topic...I saw a skidder yesterday.



:agree2::agree2::agree2:

We get it here too fellas... We can never get the kool kolifornians like Bob... We always have to get the vegan, tree hugger, liberal, dumb kind.


----------



## Greystoke

*Californians*



Gologit said:


> I'd get really upset about all this "Californicated" talk...if all of you weren't so damn right. We even get it in our _own_ state. They move up to the north end of the state for the same reasons they move to Oregon or Washington, or your part of the country. We have a lot of names for them but there aren't any that I could get past the AS censors.
> 
> LOL...When I go up north for the PNW GTG Slowp said she'd loan me a set of Washington license plates. People up there really don't like Californians and I can't say as I blame them much.
> 
> Now...to get this thread back on topic...I saw a skidder yesterday.



:agree2:
When I was working in Humboldt, I remember all of the local guys that I worked with saying:"This place used to be pretty cool, til all the yuppies, and tree huggers moved in"...after living there for a few years; they were right! California has the best timber I have ever seen and some of the most beautiful territory I have ever seen...it is an awesome state, and there are still some good people that reside there, but there are also a lot of culls too.


----------



## Metals406

tarzanstree said:


> :agree2:
> When I was working in Humboldt, I remember all of the local guys that I worked with saying:"This place used to be pretty cool, til all the yuppies, and tree huggers moved in"...after living there for a few years; they were right! California has the best timber I have ever seen and some of the most beautiful territory I have ever seen...it is an awesome state, and there are still some good people that reside there, but there are also a lot of culls too.



It's much worse for you down in Missoula than it is up here... Missoula has such a 'big city' feel it's ridiculous.

Our cancerous growth up here is Whitefish... All the implants with no brains seem to flock there.


----------



## Greystoke

Metals406 said:


> It's much worse for you down in Missoula than it is up here... Missoula has such a 'big city' feel it's ridiculous.
> 
> Our cancerous growth up here is Whitefish... All the implants with no brains seem to flock there.



:agree2:
Yeah, and unforunately right now I live right in the middle of it, as I got re-married last summer, I was living in Corvallis, and my wife lived here, so I told her I would move in with her til she could get a job in the Bitterroot...it has been one year, but she did apply for a job a while back and we feel confident that she can get it, then we just have to be able to land some affordable housingwhich has gotten crazy in the Bitterroot. Wish me luck! 

P.S., do you ever follow the Rocky Mountain football League, semi-pro football? You guys have the Glacier Knights up there. I played one year for the Bitterroot Blaze and had a blast!




The funnest game that I had was up there, as I got to be in on kickoff the whole game, and got to play some corner in fourth quarter...by the way we won 91-3, and that 3 was because of me:monkey:, I had a late hit penalty which put them in field goal range. They were a fun bunch of guys, and they did really well this year.


----------



## Metals406

tarzanstree said:


> :agree2:
> Yeah, and unforunately right now I live right in the middle of it, as I got re-married last summer, I was living in Corvallis, and my wife lived here, so I told her I would move in with her til she could get a job in the Bitterroot...it has been one year, but she did apply for a job a while back and we feel confident that she can get it, then we just have to be able to land some affordable housingwhich has gotten crazy in the Bitterroot. Wish me luck!
> 
> P.S., do you ever follow the Rocky Mountain football League, semi-pro football? You guys have the Glacier Knights up there. I played one year for the Bitterroot Blaze and had a blast!
> 
> 
> 
> The funnest game that I had was up there, as I got to be in on kickoff the whole game, and got to play some corner in fourth quarter...by the way we won 91-3, and that 3 was because of me:monkey:, I had a late hit penalty which put them in field goal range. They were a fun bunch of guys, and they did really well this year.



I was just in Victor on Thursday... The Bitterroot Valley doesn't seem like a bad place to live at all... As long as a guy can find work somewhere.

It looked like a big fire had swept through a few thousand acres on the face of the Bitterroot Range--they should log all that dead wood out'a there, and replant!

I haven't followed the league before... But I'll check it out!


----------



## Greystoke

*What a shame*

Yeah, the Bitterroot range has been ravaged by fires...unfortunately, the only trees that have gotten salvaged here have been mostly private, and state owned. I am convinced that the Forest dis-service, or Forest Circus, okay...Forest Service (no harm intended here, as I have a lot of friends that work for them, but they are a bureaucracy, and it seems that a lot of the higher ups are big city yuppies on the east coast that never see, or live what is happening to our National Forest lands here), seems to think that if they just let everything burn up, that the forest lands will then be managed, and they wont have to worry about all the litigation's from all the tree huggers any more...I do think that as things are now their hands are fairly tied up, hopefully things will change before it all goes up in flames! 

P.S. Slowp...hopefully you will not take offense...like I said, I have many FRIENDS that are employed by the F.S., and I am assuming that you work for them? After reading your posts, you are one of the good girls:angel:. After all, I was married to a girl that worked for them. My ex put herself through college working for them, so I do respect the people, just not so much the bureaucracy


----------



## slowp

The grapple skidder is working the bottom of the unit, and the yarder is now going on the top. 

Yarders are better than skidders cuz they can't run around all over as much.

I found a nice, _"Princess"_ pink balloon while walking out to the road in a way so as not to get smashed by the feller buncher. 

Are we back on topic yet? 

And they filmed a movie here last year. The movie people spent a lot of money in our little community, but I don't think they want to move here. Packwood is more to their liking. They have a bike lane.


----------



## Greystoke

*okay skidders*



slowp said:


> The grapple skidder is working the bottom of the unit, and the yarder is now going on the top.
> 
> Yarders are better than skidders cuz they can't run around all over as much.
> 
> I found a nice, _"Princess"_ pink balloon while walking out to the road in a way so as not to get smashed by the feller buncher.
> 
> Are we back on topic yet?





I agree, yarders are better than skidders, but if it weren't for the costs, helicopter logging is sweet, but then again, I am kind of biased since most of my career was for them. I am not sure if our comrades from Colorado and surrounding areas would agree because, unless things have changed much, I don't think they do much, if any, yarder logging in that country? Bullbuck?. I lived in North Park when I was little and my Dad was a Timber Faller there, until we moved to Montana in '88.



> And they filmed a movie here last year. The movie people spent a lot of money in our little community, but I don't think they want to move here. Packwood is more to their liking. They have a bike lane.


[/QUOTE]

Where is here? I stayed in an R.V. park that was Close to Elbe, right next to Alder lake I think? We were logging in a big second growth patch up by Eatonville. We waited around for quite a while for some Old Growth that was supposed to be harvested by Kapowsin, but unfortunately, it never happened, at least not while I was there.


----------



## redprospector

Gologit said:


> I'd get really upset about all this "Californicated" talk...if all of you weren't so damn right. We even get it in our _own_ state. They move up to the north end of the state for the same reasons they move to Oregon or Washington, or your part of the country. We have a lot of names for them but there aren't any that I could get past the AS censors.
> 
> LOL...When I go up north for the PNW GTG Slowp said she'd loan me a set of Washington license plates. People up there really don't like Californians and I can't say as I blame them much.
> 
> Now...to get this thread back on topic...I saw a skidder yesterday.



Hahaha. Don't get upset Bob. I have the right to whine about Californians, I are one.  I was fortunate enough to be taken from there when I was 5 though.  There are a lot of good folks in California, unfortunately they are out numbered by the screwball's.

Andy

Oh yeah, so I'm not way off topic again.
1978 John Deere 440-b, ugly but paid for.


----------



## bullbuck

yeah,our mountains are not as tall as up north but i had a yarder job unhooking chokers for a sreaming detroit with probably 8 to 10 main line splices that you could see,i only worked the job for maybe 3 weeks,out in sullivan,but the ground was too steep to deck on the side of the road so the crane op. would take a 5 6 log turn and sling them onto the road where i would set chokes on em and skid them to a better place to load with a d6,guess i was 17 or so...there were some decks in excess of 20 feet tall on ..well just steep ground but no i dont know much about yarding at all


----------



## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> yeah,our mountains are not as tall as up north but i had a yarder job unhooking chokers for a sreaming detroit with probably 8 to 10 main line splices that you could see,i only worked the job for maybe 3 weeks,out in sullivan,but the ground was too steep to deck on the side of the road so the crane op. would take a 5 6 log turn and sling them onto the road where i would set chokes on em and skid them to a better place to load with a d6,guess i was 17 or so...there were some decks in excess of 20 feet tall on ..well just steep ground but no i dont know much about yarding at all



Yarder logging is waaay more work than skidder logging... It keeps a guy in shape.


----------



## Greystoke

*Sorry Bullbuck*

=


> bullbuck;1608773]yeah,our mountains are not as tall as up north but i had a yarder job unhooking chokers for a sreaming detroit with probably 8 to 10 main line splices that you could see,i only worked the job for maybe 3 weeks,out in sullivan,but the ground was too steep to deck on the side of the road so the crane op. would take a 5 6 log turn and sling them onto the road where i would set chokes on em and skid them to a better place to load with a d6,guess i was 17 or so...there were some decks in excess of 20 feet tall on ..well just steep ground but no i dont know much about yarding at all[/QUOTE



I just reread one of your messages, and realized that you are not from Colorado, but New Mexico right? Don't know where I got that you are from Colorado:bang: So, now I feel like a :monkey: cuz I was on here saying about how Colorado loggers esp. around north park, did not do any yarder logging, at least not when we lived there pre '88, but I did not know the methods they used in your area. I have driven through there and they have some nice looking pine! Again, sorry


----------



## bullbuck

trust me you aint gonna hurt my feelers one bit.i know what i have done and what i feel i need to accomplish yet and that is my selfish version,but to all who post its amazing what i have learned from you guys!thanks and keep posting


----------



## slowp

Where is here? I stayed in an R.V. park that was Close to Elbe, right next to Alder lake I think? We were logging in a big second growth patch up by Eatonville. We waited around for quite a while for some Old Growth that was supposed to be harvested by Kapowsin, but unfortunately, it never happened, at least not while I was there.[/QUOTE]

Morton is my shopping town, unless a trip to Chehalis/Centralia is feasible.


I think the old Skagit yarder might start up soon.


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## Greystoke

slowp said:


> Where is here? I stayed in an R.V. park that was Close to Elbe, right next to Alder lake I think? We were logging in a big second growth patch up by Eatonville. We waited around for quite a while for some Old Growth that was supposed to be harvested by Kapowsin, but unfortunately, it never happened, at least not while I was there.





> Morton is my shopping town, unless a trip to Chehalis/Centralia is feasible.




I think the old Skagit yarder might start up soon. [/QUOTE]

Do they still have the "Woods" Saw shop in Morton? I remember they were not as stocked as the one in Sedro Wooly, or Madsens. Madsens is my favorite.


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## bullbuck

also no harm intended towards californians,in general i have just run into some real gems up here that have skewed my view of the group as a whole,but to be fair i should meet the individual before lump in the whole group...


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## bullbuck

oh yeah and i found out some more transformers news,they were supposed to have already begun filming the third one but the economy has put the project on hold,i dont think it will be on hold much longer as the second one is alrady half way to the 400 mil.$mark,and i was hanging out at applebees downtown and apparently megan fox tyrece and other stars would hang out in there from time to time..id sure like to meet that girl with those wolf eyes shes got, man what a package!


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> oh yeah and i found out some more transformers news,they were supposed to have already begun filming the third one but the economy has put the project on hold,i dont think it will be on hold much longer as the second one is alrady half way to the 400 mil.$mark,and i was hanging out at applebees downtown and apparently megan fox tyrece and other stars would hang out in there from time to time..id sure like to meet that girl with those wolf eyes shes got, man what a package!



She's quite the looker, that's for dang sure!


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## slowp

tarzanstree said:


> Do they still have the "Woods" Saw shop in Morton? I remember they were not as stocked as the one in Sedro Wooly, or Madsens. Madsens is my favorite.



Nope. Woods Logging left Morton a couple years ago. They are still in Longview and Sedro Wooley. The only place to buy a saw in Morton is at the feed store. Sad. The appliance store closed too. I had planned to give them some business. 

On a cheerier note, here's a new fashion trend for here. The rigging crew and fallers are all wearing little radios this year. 





That little orange thing on the back is the buckle? Part of the radio suspension system.

And, the best thing of all, this hooktender is packing WEDGES!





They're doing a pretty decent job. The hooktender was ahead in rigging so was working with the crew. The bottom of the unit is skidder ground, the top is yarder. 

It was definitely a Monday today. Problem with a truck and then I had to get pulled back on the road-- I thought there was road under the slash.  No harm to pickup or me. The truck was not involved. I just picked a bad place to park.


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## bullbuck

well its a good thing,how much money you got riding on the mutilation of that big gov. bumper these days?who gets paid if you trash it?


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## Metals406

slowp said:


> Nope. Woods Logging left Morton a couple years ago. They are still in Longview and Sedro Wooley. The only place to buy a saw in Morton is at the feed store. Sad. The appliance store closed too. I had planned to give them some business.
> 
> On a cheerier note, here's a new fashion trend for here. The rigging crew and fallers are all wearing little radios this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That little orange thing on the back is the buckle? Part of the radio suspension system.
> 
> And, the best thing of all, this hooktender is packing WEDGES!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're doing a pretty decent job. The hooktender was ahead in rigging so was working with the crew. The bottom of the unit is skidder ground, the top is yarder.
> 
> It was definitely a Monday today. Problem with a truck and then I had to get pulled back on the road-- I thought there was road under the slash.  No harm to pickup or me. The truck was not involved. I just picked a bad place to park.



Radios should be mandatory when working in the woods IMHO... They're good for safety and keeping everyone on the same page.


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## Greystoke

*Radio Fashion*



> slowp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Woods Logging left Morton a couple years ago. They are still in Longview and Sedro Wooley. The only place to buy a saw in Morton is at the feed store. Sad. The appliance store closed too. I had planned to give them some business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate seeing stuff like thatI guess that's just a sign of the times...Montana timber industry is pathetic right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a cheerier note, here's a new fashion trend for here. The rigging crew and fallers are all wearing little radios this year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess I must have been ahead of the times in the loggers fashion department. Here are some pics of myself falling timber in Concrete Washington Jan of '97. Except our radios were Huge, as compared to the little compact ones now. Here are my pics, and be nice people...I know, I looked like I was 10 years old, but I was actually 19 and married...yes I got started way too young:monkey:.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And look! I was even wearing safety glasses...I was a good little busheler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I Can't believe I used to carry an axe around with me all the time.
Click to expand...


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## Greystoke

*Radio Safety*



Metals406 said:


> Radios should be mandatory when working in the woods IMHO... They're good for safety and keeping everyone on the same page.



:agree2: I can't remember how many times I used my radio for convenience, not to mention getting hurt and recruiting some help to get me out of the brush; besides we had to have one if they were flying us in so that we could communicate with the pilots. Columbia would offer them to everyone, as long as there were enough to go around. A lot of guys would keep them in their pack-sacks, which is fine, unless you get pinned down, or busted up. I remember my Father-in-Law always lecturing me about wearing my radio in a chest-pack:chatter:, and sure enough he set left his in his pack, and ended up busting his leg:jawdrop: He had to crawl a long distance to get to it; I gave him a hard time about that one :rant: You don't even have to have a chest pack anymore, although the chest-packs are nice, especially if you are busheling, as you can keep a write-in-the-rain tablet in there. When I was working in Alaska, I always had a little radio (Motorola, etc), in the pocket of my hickory shirt with a little lanyard looped through the button hole to keep from losing it. They can be worth their weight in gold!


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## Metals406

tarzanstree said:


> :agree2: I can't remember how many times I used my radio for convenience, not to mention getting hurt and recruiting some help to get me out of the brush; besides we had to have one if they were flying us in so that we could communicate with the pilots. Columbia would offer them to everyone, as long as there were enough to go around. A lot of guys would keep them in their pack-sacks, which is fine, unless you get pinned down, or busted up. I remember my Father-in-Law always lecturing me about wearing my radio in a chest-pack:chatter:, and sure enough he set left his in his pack, and ended up busting his leg:jawdrop: He had to crawl a long distance to get to it; I gave him a hard time about that one :rant: You don't even have to have a chest pack anymore, although the chest-packs are nice, especially if you are busheling, as you can keep a write-in-the-rain tablet in there. When I was working in Alaska, I always had a little radio (Motorola, etc), in the pocket of my hickory shirt with a little lanyard looped through the button hole to keep from losing it. They can be worth their weight in gold!



Yup, safety, convenience... And we didn't use a talky-tooter to hook, we used radio commands.

With a good chest pack on, you forget you're even wearing a radio.


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## bullbuck

nice pics tarzan!is that a 288 xp or lite?


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## slowp

Your large radio looks the size of what I have. I don't carry it much because of the size. And, they used to be the big ones when I first started out. I should be thankful! 

The cutters had their radios clipped to their suspenders. It looked handy, but fragile.


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## Metals406

slowp said:


> Your large radio looks the size of what I have. I don't carry it much because of the size. And, they used to be the big ones when I first started out. I should be thankful!
> 
> The cutters had their radios clipped to their suspenders. It looked handy, but fragile.



Patty, how's the weather over there? It's hotter than Satan's taint over here. 

I just saw the DNRC chopper out and about, so they must be gearing up for fire season... It's amazing how quick stuff dries out in this heat.


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## slowp

Metals406 said:


> Patty, how's the weather over there? It's hotter than Satan's taint over here.
> 
> I just saw the DNRC chopper out and about, so they must be gearing up for fire season... It's amazing how quick stuff dries out in this heat.



Unlike Seattle, we've gotten rain. Thursday was foggy. Since then it has warmed up and is supposed to hit near or at 80 tomorrow and be warm. 
I prefer working in fog like we had last week. The nights have been in fortyish and it makes for chilly mornings. I hope that continues. No rise in the precaution level, the punky stuff is still wet enough to get pants muddy when sliding over it--I don't jump.  The farmers are all cutting their hay now. There was a small patch of snow in the ditch yet on the way to a unit. 
So, not too bad, but I'll get really cranky when it warms up. I'll start early tomorrow cuz I have skyline corridors to work on.


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## Metals406

slowp said:


> Unlike Seattle, we've gotten rain. Thursday was foggy. Since then it has warmed up and is supposed to hit near or at 80 tomorrow and be warm.
> I prefer working in fog like we had last week. The nights have been in fortyish and it makes for chilly mornings. I hope that continues. No rise in the precaution level, the punky stuff is still wet enough to get pants muddy when sliding over it--I don't jump.  The farmers are all cutting their hay now. There was a small patch of snow in the ditch yet on the way to a unit.
> So, not too bad, but I'll get really cranky when it warms up. I'll start early tomorrow cuz I have skyline corridors to work on.



It seems like Montana always swings from one extreme to the next... 

It was in the 70's a week ago, and I was in heaven... Yesterday, my digital said 105.5° on the sunny side of the house (not direct sunlight), and the other thermometer in the shade said 86°... I was sweating like I was standing in the shower.

Glad you guys are still midrange temps, I hate the extreme cold, and extreme hot... I'm a middle of the road kind of guy when it comes to my weather.


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## Greystoke

bullbuck said:


> nice pics tarzan!is that a 288 xp or lite?



I think it was just an xp. Seems forever ago that I ran those!


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## hammerlogging

Slowp, the little thing on the back is where the 3 straps come together. It buckles on the side. They are great for woods workers indeed. But, we're running our little yarder now and I'm getting a little time under it since the pressure is off the falling side for now. Everyone wishes it had talkie tooters like the big yarder (which is parked) cause its so much faster and simpler to communicate. B ut, the radios work. They're great for cutting, Like "hey, lunch time yet?) or.... "can you come cut me out?" (never happens to me....sure.....i.e happens to everyone once in a while.


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## bullbuck

those saws were great i wore out two of them,cant remember having any major trouble with them


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## Greystoke

bullbuck said:


> those saws were great i wore out two of them,cant remember having any major trouble with them



Yeah, I had a few...good chainsaws and very dependable, but after running a 394, I could never go back as the 394 was way smoother, plus more power, then I started running 066...


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> It seems like Montana always swings from one extreme to the next...
> 
> It was in the 70's a week ago, and I was in heaven... Yesterday, my digital said 105.5° on the sunny side of the house (not direct sunlight), and the other thermometer in the shade said 86°... I was sweating like I was standing in the shower.
> 
> Glad you guys are still midrange temps, I hate the extreme cold, and extreme hot... I'm a middle of the road kind of guy when it comes to my weather.



105, WOW! 
I'll be thinking of you while I'm working tomorrow, it hit 69 where I was working today. I think I broke a sweat, but I can't remember. :hmm3grin2orange:
It get's to 105 or more in the desert, but not here. I couldn't live like that.

Andy


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## Metals406

redprospector said:


> 105, WOW!
> I'll be thinking of you while I'm working tomorrow, it hit 69 where I was working today. I think I broke a sweat, but I can't remember. :hmm3grin2orange:
> It get's to 105 or more in the desert, but not here. I couldn't live like that.
> 
> Andy



Luckily, it's not a real humid heat--but instead a dry heat. Still cooks you good when you're working in the sun though.

A lot of folks don't realize how warm NW Montana can get in the summer.


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## slowp

I better bite my tongue. Much to my surprise, there was a note from the fire guy saying we are going to be a levl ll today. I'll have to go and break the news to the yarder crew. Yesterday was hot, buggy, and dirty. We don't water roads here, because it rains all the time, right? I came in cranky, hot and needing a shower. The new house is well insulated and was refreshing to walk into.  

Yesterday, one of the cutters and I were unpleasantly surprised. He laid out corridors, and I came along after to mark out the trees. What the map said and what was on the ground were different. The map said the average yarding distance was 250 feet. On the ground, which was 80 to 90% it was more like 800 feet of knee punishment. The good news is, I'm starting to shrink from the workouts. The bad news is, I wake up in the morning feeling like I've been run over by all the trucks.


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## Metals406

slowp said:


> I better bite my tongue. Much to my surprise, there was a note from the fire guy saying we are going to be a levl ll today. I'll have to go and break the news to the yarder crew. Yesterday was hot, buggy, and dirty. We don't water roads here, because it rains all the time, right? I came in cranky, hot and needing a shower. The new house is well insulated and was refreshing to walk into.
> 
> Yesterday, one of the cutters and I were unpleasantly surprised. He laid out corridors, and I came along after to mark out the trees. What the map said and what was on the ground were different. The map said the average yarding distance was 250 feet. On the ground, which was 80 to 90% it was more like 800 feet of knee punishment. The good news is, I'm starting to shrink from the workouts. The bad news is, I wake up in the morning feeling like I've been run over by all the trucks.



Is level three "Hoot Owl" for you guys? It's going to be another steamer here today again... At this rate, we'll be under "extreme fire danger" soon. 

Glad your new house is keeping out the heat. 

It's good you're getting a good workout, at least the gym membership is free!


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## bullbuck

hoot owl?thats wild down here our fire season starts usually late march and th rains dont come until july,we have been very lucky with getting some substantial rainfall this year, but about two months ago you could have farted and the whole place would of went up...thts crazy metals is that 105 in the mtns.?


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> hoot owl?thats wild down here our fire season starts usually late march and th rains dont come until july,we have been very lucky with getting some substantial rainfall this year, but about two months ago you could have farted and the whole place would of went up...thts crazy metals is that 105 in the mtns.?



Yeah, in the mountains... Like I said, that's on the warm side of the house... So some direct sunlight hits it. When you watch the local weather, they always say it was like 20° cooler than what I get here? Not sure if they take their readings in the shade?

I usually take both readings on either side of the house, and average them... For example, it was 105° on the hot side of the house, and 89° in the shade... So I'd say it was 97° out. We've gotten really hot in years gone by... I remember the forecasts calling for like 112°.

My house is at around 3,250'... Not way up there. Our tallest peaks around here are just over 10,000'... Average around 7-8k.


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## bullbuck

thats crazy i never would have thought that,until recently i think our record high was 86 degrees,we are but a short spine of mountains surrounded on all sides by desert,with our tallest peak being right at 12,000 ft plus we are maybe 80 miles as the crow flies from juarez,i guess the elevation must be on our side we are at 8600'ft and upwards for the highlanders..yeah slowp i think normally they would have shut us down a couple months ago for hoot owl but i think they understand we are all one step away from the poor house so they turned a semi blind eye,cooperation?i think so ,after all two d6s with 4 inch grousers and 5 fallers i mean we are pretty well equipped to stomp out fire on all but the worst ground...and i also doubled up on the insulation in my remodel thats a nasty job but one you will certainly not regret...


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## slowp

Level II is Partial Hootowl. Yarding and falling have to shut down at 1:00 PM.
We've had wind and low humidity. My hair went straight. The humidity is up a bit today, because my hair is curly again, but the mill shut down for a 3 day weekend so the logging is shut down too. 

On a Level III day, yarding and falling (by hand) are totally shut down, and the skidder operations shut down at 1 PM. 

We're supposed to cool off and maybe get some moisture Sunday?


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## Metals406

slowp said:


> Level II is Partial Hootowl. Yarding and falling have to shut down at 1:00 PM.
> We've had wind and low humidity. My hair went straight. The humidity is up a bit today, because my hair is curly again, but the mill shut down for a 3 day weekend so the logging is shut down too.
> 
> On a Level III day, yarding and falling (by hand) are totally shut down, and the skidder operations shut down at 1 PM.
> 
> We're supposed to cool off and maybe get some moisture Sunday?



I remember trying to work in Hoot Owl... We could work 1AM to 1PM--we actually stopped at 12PM, and did a 1 hour "Fire Watch"... 

Obviously, we didn't start at 1AM either, but our normal time of 6AM. Hoot Owl makes for a really short work day, and a smaller paycheck.

Word tell is, you guys might share some of that moisture with us on Sunday... But it's supposed to be in the form of thunderstorms. We may have this years first lightning fires?


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## slowp

It is still pretty green where there's no slash around. I did shut Twinkle down at one, even though I was working on a road with water running down the road ditch. I usually consider roads the same as working on a landing, but it is a good excuse to quit when it is too hot! (insert whining now). 

And the little patch of snow in the ditch was still there yesterday.


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## Metals406

slowp said:


> It is still pretty green where there's no slash around. I did shut Twinkle down at one, even though I was working on a road with water running down the road ditch. I usually consider roads the same as working on a landing, but it is a good excuse to quit when it is too hot! (insert whining now).
> 
> And the little patch of snow in the ditch was still there yesterday.



WOW!? Snow? What elevation were you at? I know some patches can last a long time in real shaded areas.

What kind of hours do you work? Are you allowed to roll-up early and go home if you want?.. Or do you drive to the office to finish the day?


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## slowp

Metals406 said:


> WOW!? Snow? What elevation were you at? I know some patches can last a long time in real shaded areas.
> 
> What kind of hours do you work? Are you allowed to roll-up early and go home if you want?.. Or do you drive to the office to finish the day?



I work maxi-flexi, which means I can pretty much start when I want. I've been going in at 6, but if we continue will go in earlier--it is good to show the flag. Going home depends on how many phone calls await, and how many demands are made from the people in the big office. I dread returning to the office. 

I believe the snow patch was close to 4000 feet. According to the logger, who has snowmobiled into the area, it gets some deep drifts on the road. The higher trails are still snowy, but will not be for long. I think we are hitting close to 90 today.


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## bullbuck

i read an article in powder(skiing magazine)and these guys would take mountain machines up in the woods and seek out clearcuts to climb and ski,these guys were lovin it,i think it was in oregon?sounded like a hoot to me,we have some aspen cearcuts down in these parts that i always love to put down down my best highmark...


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