# Veggie oil?



## tam

I was wonderin what the opinion is of y'all yanks on using vegetable oil to run a chainsaw.. i don't mean bio oil, i mean actual cooking oil.

the lads at work reckon it's cool, but i'm thinkin there must be long term effects on your pump etc, aside from the obvious lack of lubrication to the bar and chain..


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## Fumbler

Vegetable oil?
Are you serious?
Do you mean as an oil/gas mix or for bar and chain oil?

I may be a n00b to the chainsaw world, but this is silly.


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## treemendous

*veggie oil*

I blend about 35% canola oil with heavy bar oil, just shake it up before use. I haven't had any negative issues. Used for about 5 years this way.


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## sawinredneck

This has been discussed numorous times on here before. There are a couple of guys, Elmore and TreeCo (I believe) That are experimenting right now, we are waiting to hear back from them as to the differences in bar wear and types of wood may hold.
Yes fumblar, it's the reall deal, I have considered iton my smaller saws, but am skeptical on the 25" and 32" bars.
Andy


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## Tree Machine

I'm into my 4th year using strictly off the grocer's shelf cooking oil; canola, corn, safflower, sunflower, whichever is the cheapest.

I run 346's and 395's. I like to think I run em as hard as the next guy. Still, to this day, I have had not a single complication with veggie over petroleum based sticky oil.

Cost petro vs veggie, right now, are about the same.


I could ramble on for days on this topics, and have. But really, nothing has changed in performance. 
Here are the links to Veggie oil 1  and Veggie oil. 2

Just yesterday I opened up the oiler mech in the 346. Actually, I went in there for the bar tensioner assembly, but to get there you have to pull off the clutch and a thin metal plate and then it's all exposed. I got the tensioner operable again and since I was in there, I pulled the plastic pinion drive gear and looked the oiler system over completely. There was a bit of sawdust particle buildup here and there, just as you might expect so I cleaned that out, made sure all the channels were channeling, etc. One thing I did notice: Where the plastic pinion gear meets with the metal oiler pump gear, exactly where the two interface and mesh, it was perfectly clean and shiny. To either side of these wear surfaces, there was a moderate buildup, not on the plastic drive gear, that one was spotless, but on the metal oil pump drive gear, to either side of the drive area, there was some buildup. I removed that with a tiny screwdriver. Everything elsein there looked fine. 

As far as the age of that particular saw, had it power-ported three years ago, so that makes it 4 years old. It has never had anything but vegetable oil through it, and I can say that for all the other saws, too. I get about a year, year and a half out of a bar. Have never lost a sprocket tip, except when you normally would like plunge-cutting or an abusive bend.

Milling, using the 4-foot double-ended bar with two power heads, veggie did fine. 4-foot bar with a single powerhead and a stinger handle, also did just fine. When I put these lesser-used bars away, I clean the bar rail channel out and hit the channel and sprockets with WD.

Currently I am running 3/8 mini chain on a 14" titanium carving bar powered by an 8-pin sprocket on a power-ported 346XP. I'm pushing this setup _hard_ and the veggie oil is performing as consistently as it has in any other bar/chain system. Tree Brothers, I would not lie to you. If you are a commercial guy and you USE your saws, it is fine to use veggie in your oiler tanks. If you are a homeowner and the saw sits on the shelf for long periods, I would recommend regular bar and chain lube. In doing the search above, I came across a thread I missed about occasional saw users and corn oil.

Commercial guys, I will offer to answer any question you could possibly come up with, but I know there are other guys who've been using veggie for multiple seasons. I invite them in to have a say.


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## tam

aww you guys! thanks! you've really set my mind at rest!

that's an interestin idea, shakin sum standard oil in with some veggie..

it's nice to know that yu dudes even use it on bigger saws. i've just went and bought six litres of sunflower oil, for about £3. i think that's like $5. a fraction of the price oregon or stihl or husqy oil would cost. you know, even if veggie isn't quite as good as mineral oil (which doesn't seem to be the case lol), i don't mind buyin another bar and chain a year, rather than gettin cancer from handling the dodgy stuff.

thnaks again


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## beowulf343

Hey Tree-machine, any problems with using cooking oil in the cold? Usually have a couple months here where it stays around 20 degrees or lower. Does this stuff harden up in the cold?


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## jomoco

*With or without a tacking additive?*

I find it a little hard to believe that you could run vegetable oil or any other light weight oil as a bar and chain lubricant without a tacking additive and not do any damage, especially with longer bars.

jomoco


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## woodchux

treemendous said:


> I blend about 35% canola oil with heavy bar oil, just shake it up before use. I haven't had any negative issues. Used for about 5 years this way.




What would be the purpose of blending the oils together?


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## woodchux

I use that crappy poulan bar oil...
and I have to replace the bars every couple / few months.


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## juststumps

treemendous said:


> I blend about 35% canola oil with heavy bar oil, just shake it up before use. I haven't had any negative issues. Used for about 5 years this way.



why bother????


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## Kneejerk Bombas

There are both environmental and health reasons for running vegie oil. Also, in this day and age, if you need to ask why we should reduce our dependence on foreign oil, you should be riding to work in a short bus, and then led to your work site with a leash.
A properly sharpened and adjusted chain needs very little oil. I can run a tank or two with virtually no oil, before the chain tightens up. Then a few drops of oil, and it's good to go some more.
Typical homeowner types need gobbs of oil to keep things going. Think about a dull saw, a two hundred and seventy pound guy leaning on it with one hand, the other holding a beer, a cheese dog, and at the same time smoke pours out of the kerf.
How do you know if you suck at sawing? You claim an oiler is not fast enough, or you put a faster oiler on your saw (unless you're milling).
Yeah, sure, the reason the bar is smoking is because the oil isn't good enough...Rolleyes
Chew on this: A sharp chain, with proper angles, feeds and cuts with almost no friction on the bar. If you're pushing in the cut, smoking bars, and feel the need to turn up the oil adjuster past half, you suck.


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## Tree Machine

I think Mike hit the doggy on the noodle. If you don't or can't keep your chain sharp and bar maintained, you suck.

Of course, we say you suck with love and affection because there are probably dozens of threads going into the finer nuances of chain sharpening, from racing chain to pro chisel to homeowner chain. We would love to teach you how to properly sharpen your own chain. There's no real magic to it.

I had an apprentice once, a couple years back, thought he was hotshot bringing his own fairly new saw to the jobsite. I embraced this, until I saw him tipping the gallon jug to oil his bar. I ask why are you dumping oil onto your bar? "Frickin oiler doesn't work." Have you looked at the oiler to determine that?" "No, it just doesn't work." "Pull your bar and chain off."

Sure enough, the little hole in the chainsaw bar was plugged. As well, the rail channel was pretty impacted with crap. In severel minutes I had 'fixed' his oiler mechanism.

This stuff happens. Even if your oil is flowing well, a dull chain will wear your bar/chain system faster than ANYTHING. Not doing basic cleaning and maintenance on you bar will result in a new chain going bad more quickly.


jomoco said:


> I find it a little hard to believe that you could run vegetable oil or any other light weight oil as a bar and chain lubricant without a tacking additive and not do any damage, especially with longer bars.


That was my apprehension at first, too. But hundreds of tanks later, and a lot of other arborists coming up with the same results, the new awareness is out: Vegetable oil lubricates as well, or better than petro-base oil. Given all the environmental, health and foreign oil concerns, unmodified, supermarket-grade vegetable oil is superior.


Beo said:


> Hey Tree-machine, any problems with using cooking oil in the cold? Usually have a couple months here where it stays around 20 degrees or lower. Does this stuff harden up in the cold?


It never 'hardens up'. It does have a freezing point, like most all liquids, but it doesn't go from liquid to solid. It goes from liquid to a sort of gelacious slurry. This does not affect the lubricating properties and ya gotta know, a few moments in a warm saw and you're gonna have liquid oil again, and that part you have to keep in mind. When pouring from the bottle to the tank in sub-freezing temps, it still flows just fine. At around 5 degrees above zero, I have found, is the point where the stuff gets firm enough to be an issue (keep the oil in the truck on the way to the jobsite). For really cold weather I store the veggie oil into a bottle that has a smaller diameter spout than the opening of your saw's oil tank. This way you don't 'pour', but rather squeeze the oil bottle and shoot a 'tube' of oil into the tank. If the saw is hot, you can watch the opaque slurry turn into clear oil again soon after it gets inside there.

There are three or 4 veggie oils you'll find on the store shelf; corn soybean, canola and 'vegetable', which is either one of the above, or a mixture. One of these is less saturated (or more polyunsaturated), a term unimportant to us, really, but the more unsaturated, the lower the 'freezing' point (never really freezes from a conventional sense). One stays liquid down to a really low temp, I think it was Canola, but don't quote me, I can't remember which one it was.


treemendous said:


> I blend about 35% canola oil with heavy bar oil, just shake it up before use. I haven't had any negative issues. Used for about 5 years this way.


Woodchux: What would be the purpose of blending the oils together?
Juststumps: why bother????

Tree Machine: There really is no reason to have to do this. I offered my entire stock of saws and chains to test the veggie oil theory. If it didn't work, the worst that could happen is it would make the saws go defunct and I would have to replace the saws. I still have the same saws. Bars have been swapped, but along the timelines that they would have anyway.

_Keeping your chain sharpened and bar maintained_ are what will keep you cutting efficiently and offer long lives to your consumable parts.


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## tam

yep i reckon mike knows what he's talking about. i do very little felling work or even much ground work at all, coz i'm usually in a tree. so the saw i use most is a 200t, which obviously has quite a short bar and doesn't actually do that much cutting. it might be a bit different for the lads who do proper forestry. but, like yu guys say, chain and bar care is surely the trick.

by the way, tree machine, your comments are really great, but don't yu have a life?!! either that or yu type incredibly fast... lol:notrolls2:


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## bushman

Stihil makes a bio bar oil at 20 bucks a gallon.they don't have it stock most of the time .


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## SRT-Tech

I buy 5 gallons of canola oil and mix in 1 gal of LUCAS heavy duty oil stabilizer and blend with a paint stirrer on a drill. Works EXCELLENT, has the same tack as reg bar oil and is very cheap.


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## Tree Machine

Bushman said:


> Stihl makes a bio bar oil at 20 bucks a gallon. they don't have it stock most of the time


You shouldn't have to shell out _four hundred percent more_ per gallon, just to be environmentally conscious. 

We did our research last year on what the tacking agent was, what it was made of and how much of it went into a gallon to make it sticky. Our interest was to see if we could find a source of tack concentrate and add it to veggie oil (for those who held tight to the belief that a tackifier was necessary in a bar and chain system).

I actually got some of this pure 'tack' to try out last Winter. It was VERY thick, sticky, viscous and water insoluble. It mixed and dispersed poorly, especially when cold, and if you got it on anything, ya might as well throw it away. I tried it out on one gallon of pure veggie and as you might think, the bar and chain were lubricated just fine. But, at that point, I had been two-going on three years on pure, unadulterated veggie and the bar and chain had been lubricated just fine.

This was a personal, unscientific comparison, and a one-time deal. My finding was that you could put more time and cost into tackifying your veggie oil, but it was truly not worth the effort. I may be biassed, but that doesn't change the results I have seen and what others have experienced.


tam said:


> by the way, tree machine, your comments are really great, but don't yu have a life?!! either that or yu type incredibly fast... lol:notrolls2:


Ha! I am the world's slowest typer. This reply alone I started yesterday, worked on some last night and will finish this morning over coffee.

I have a life, and a business that can work me from daylight til after dusk. If I'm contributing here at Arboristsite while I can be out climbing, I am losing money (opportunity cost). I have to accept that. However, this is an environmental and health cause that can have an impact industry-wide, in a positive manner. Other than those who sell petro bar oil, or those who produce 20 dollar a gallon sticky veggie oil, everyone, including the environment, is a winner.

It's past 10 am right now, another two hours of workday has slipped past. I'll continue sharing information and answering questions as long as it takes.

And please note, I am not the first arborist to use veggie oil as bar and chain lube, and it was not originally my idea to do so (credit my wife, Elizabeth). However, *this is a topic central to every single arborist out there* and I've volunteered my saws and efforts to find a better way. I risk being the class idiot if oiler mechanisms begin to self-destruct (woulda happened by now), but if your work clothing doesn't cross-contaminate your children's sleepwear in the washer, I'll gladly take partial credit for that.

If we consider ourselves stewards to the environment, spraying raw petroleum oil onto our clients' properties and onto our clothes and tools and onto the trees that sustain our incomes, well, we should all consider who we say we are, and what it is we are actually doing. Action speaks louder than words.

Switching to veggie oil is a painless, cost-free change requiring no modifications whatsoever. You just have to get over the longstanding brainwash that petro oil is somehow superior and that a tackifier is truly necessary. Big oil has created the distribution and manufacture and the successful mass mindset that sticky petro oil is what needs to be used in our saws. We have only recently questioned this longstanding socially ingrained belief, and it is just that; a belief. The actual lubrication and physics and biology make a clear statement that there is a better option.

Think about it. We are going along with the ways passed down through generations. Was this the best option out there at the time this all began, or was it just something that worked, so we went with it. Maybe we should look at the use of petro bar and chain lube as an old habit, a conventional practice that, like a complient flock of sheep we have just gone along with, _'just because'_ it's always been that way. We are not sheep. We are individuals comprising a sector of the green industry. We make our own choices.


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## OTG BOSTON

*bioplus?*

I recently got some of the bioplus from Stihl, I thought it was a great way to go, so much so that I paid for it out of my own pocket for my guys to try. 

TM it seems like you don't believe it is any better than grocers shelf cooking oils, is it any worse? is price the only reason for this?? I only ask because as a municipality I have to put out purchase orders for equipment I need. I can only imagine what the guys in purchasing would say if I tried to get a P.O. at the local grocery store! 

I also got some environmentally friendly synthetic oil for our 2 stroke mix, any thoughts on this?

I appreciate your sharing of knowledge and agree that if you're gonna talk the talk about being a steward of the environment........................

Thanks


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## Tree Machine

OTG BOSTON said:


> TM it seems like you don't believe it is any better than grocers shelf cooking oils, is it any worse? is price the only reason for this??


I mention price, only because it's one of those universal tipping points. I mean, 20 bucks a gallon??? The commercial bio oil, we found last year was comprised of something like 98% canola. The Tacking agent itself was like 4% active tacking agent dispersed in 96 % canola (or something) making the whole mix better than 99% canola. So for the fraction of a percent of tacking agent in the veggie oil, you pay dearly for that right to say "I'm environmentally friendly." My point is, it doesn't have to be so painfuly expensive to use something that will ultimately be spun off your bar and chain and into the environment. The reason I don't believe a tackified bar oil is any better than straight veggie oil is because the results have shown this to be true. Untackifed bar lube (straight veggie) lubricates just fine. I have run hundreds of tanks of veggie through at this point. So have a lot of other guys If there were negative implications, it probably would have surfaced by now.


OTG BOSTON said:


> I only ask because as a municipality I have to put out purchase orders for equipment I need. I can only imagine what the guys in purchasing would say if I tried to get a P.O. at the local grocery store!


If I were a municipality, I would purchase the stuff in 55 gallon drums. If you're convinced tack is necessary, mix in a bottle or two of LUCAS heavy duty oil stablizer, available at most auto parts stores.



OTG BOSTON said:


> I also got some environmentally friendly synthetic oil for our 2 stroke mix, any thoughts on this? Thanks


That's out of my realm of knowledge. The chainsaw forum guys would definitely have the know on that.


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## OTG BOSTON

Thanks TM


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## Elmore

*Canola*

Here is what was posted on Canola bar oil a little while back.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=37348&highlight=canola+oil

I posted : 
"Last week I picked up 5 quarts of Mazola brand canola oil at Sam's Club for $5.08. Used it in my Makita DCS 520i yesterday and believe that it performed much better than the cheap Poulan Pro oil that I had previously been using. More time, use and comparison should tell." 







I also supplied this informative link :

VEGETABLE OIL FOR LUBRICATING CHAIN

PDF : http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdf/98511316.pdf

HTML : http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...erties+of+canola+oil&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9

Thanks Tree Machine!


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## SRT-Tech

Tree Machine said:


> I mention price, only because it's one of those universal tipping points. I mean, 20 bucks a gallon??? The commercial bio oil, we found last year was comprised of something like 98% canola. The Tacking agent itself was like 4% active tacking agent dispersed in 96 % canola (or something) making the whole mix better than 99% canola. So for the fraction of a percent of tacking agent in the veggie oil, you pay dearly for that right to say "I'm environmentally friendly." My point is, it doesn't have to be so painfuly expensive to use something that will ultimately be spun off your bar and chain and into the environment. The reason I don't believe a tackified bar oil is any better than straight veggie oil is because the results have shown this to be true. Untackifed bar lube (straight veggie) lubricates just fine. I have run hundreds of tanks of veggie through at this point. So have a lot of other guys If there were negative implications, it probably would have surfaced by now. If I were a municipality, I would purchase the stuff in 55 gallon drums. If you're convinced tack is necessary, mix in a bottle or two of LUCAS heavy duty oil stablizer, available at most auto parts stores.




WELL SAID! and YES, the Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer works wonders when mixed with canola oil!!


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## bushman

when it burns it makes you hungry!burgers and frie's!good thread,now we need good envoirmental saw miopcorn: x.


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## Sprig

*Thank you Tree Machine!*

For putting things in a concise and quite readable context on your usage of veggie oils (canola, whatever), its makes perfect sense to me and I have now sworn off ever using over-priced dino liquids again (but, um, I will use up what I have left).   
Local grocer has canola on for 1.20 a litre, I be picking up a gallon or two today, just makes wayyy to much sense, less cost to health and environment, a win-win thing, consider me a convert! I have half a gallon of fish 'n' chip oil I'm going to strain and use too, should be great for giving the crew the munchies lol. :rockn: :rockn: 

Hey, theres an idea, you could start your own line of scented bar oils, 'Buttered popcorn', 'Greasy Burger Cafe', 'Bacon & Eggs'................GAH nm, I go now have breakfast.



Serge

Edit> bushman, great minds thimk alike


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## winchman

*long time reader, first time poster...*

hi guys,
love this forum, and this thread. been waiting for one that i felt pretty sure about, and this is the one i can contribute something to. 
we have a fleet of around 15 saws at any given time, running both stihls and husqys with equal pleasure. our largest saws, even the 3120 with the 44" bar, the 385 (36"), the 575(32"), and the 650 (25") are run with canola oil. have been for over a year and a half now, with no discernable differences in performance. 
except one. if the saw sits for a good length of time (month+), we have found on longer bars that the oil decides to stick the chain in place, to the point where you need to remove the cover and loose it by hand. that has only happened to our largest and smallest saws, once each, mainly because they see the least use (we presume). 
people are talking cost, and that is a really big great reason to switch, since the cost is at least a dollar less per gallon. 
try it out, stop worrying about mixing stuff, use the straight stuff, use a junk saw from a pawn shop if you think its going to ruin your equipment, and then when you see the results, put it in the rest of your saws.
thanks for reading.


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## Elmore

The reason that I tried canola oil was due to the information that Tree Machine was sharing and the fact that my Makita DCS 520i coupled with an 18" ProLite bar did not seem to be utilizing the PoulanPro oil that I stocked up on. It just didn't seem to be effective. I maximized the oil pump output to no avail. When I used the canola I could readily see it even on the bottom rail of the bar. It seemed to be cooler in operation and after use, the bar and chain seemed a lot cleaner. When using canola I adjust my oiler back down about half way.
In the Makita manual, Makita/Dolmar offered a bio-oil based on canola and it suggested running some petrol oil before any extended storage. I plan on picking up some Stihl oil to run through it on occasion and use the rest of my Poulan oil in my little Poulan saws as they don't seem to have any problems with it. The canola oil that I found for $5.08 per five quarts seems to be cost effective, efficient and over all seems like the best option.


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## Elmore

*greater affinity to metal surfaces and better lubricity*

Canola oil comes from a cultivar of the rapeseed plant from which rapeseed oil is obtained. Also known as "LEAR" oil (for Low Erucic Acid Rapeseed). 
Natural rapeseed oil contains higher levels of erucic acid and is referred to as "HEAR" oil. Both have a greater affinity to metal surfaces and better lubricity than mineral oils. HEAR oil, containing higher levels of erucic acid, exhibits superior lubricity. Unfortunately it is harder to find rapeseed oil than it is to find canola oil but canola seems to be more than adequate for lubricating the bar and chain.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/V2-302.html


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## tam

scented bar oil! what an awesome idea! you wanna get that patented quick or stihl will be all over it!:rockn: 

lol i was lookin at the keyboard as i was typin, and somehow the ebay login page opened up, coz i'm doing ebay at the same time, and i typed this whole message as my password. :jester:


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## Sprig

tam said:


> scented bar oil! what an awesome idea! you wanna get that patented quick or stihl will be all over it!:rockn:
> 
> lol i was lookin at the keyboard as i was typin, and somehow the ebay login page opened up, coz i'm doing ebay at the same time, and i typed this whole message as my password. :jester:



Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!! Me guesses you couldn't log in? 

Couldn't figure out how to patent such a thing or I would not have mentioned it, but it did give me a great idea and........ I'm not telling 

opcorn: opcorn:  opcorn: opcorn:

And elmore, great information!


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## Tree Machine

Hey all you guys, I want to personally thank you all for simply being open minded and trying veggie oil. I'm not trying to get people to 'do as I do'. I have no business interest in veggie oil. In fact, as you can probably presume, there is no direct benefit to me. The benefit is truly to the environment.

I'm glad to know that veggie oil is cheaper than the heavy petro oil. I haven't bought a jug of dino in about 4 years and back then the price was neck and neck, so that's great, another incentive.

Elmore, dude, thank you for those excellent links and for your breakdown on what canola oil is, and especially for this


> When using canola I adjust my oiler back down about half way.


As part of the 'experiment' I chose to leave my oiler set where the factory had it set, to where the fuel runs out and there's some oil left in the bar tank. I really felt there was excessive lubrication, but I wanted to run the saws like the average guy would, unmodified, factory-set. 

*Winchman*, welcome to your first thread and THANK YOU for sharing your results;


> the 3120 with the 44" bar, the 385 (36"), the 575(32"), and the 650 (25") are run with canola oil. have been for over a year and a half now, with no discernable differences in performance.


A lot of the guys are leery about using veggie in their big saws, I presume because if the veggie oil caused the saw to self-destruct it would be a bigger loss. However, you've been running veggie in your big dogs for over a year and a half and all is well. Thank you, man. Glad to finally have you in.

When the first veggie oil threads came up a couple years ago I was pretty much all alone, battling the naysayers with the science and experience I'd had up to that point and this innate passion to help the environment, an instinctive drive I've had since childhood. Of all the threads I've been part of here at Arboristsite, the veggie oil threads are by far the most important and widely beneficial of all.

Again, thank you all for your openness, and your trials and your HONEST sharing of your experiences.

I really feel the need to go upstairs, open a beer and give a big Cheers! in your honor.


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## frashdog

> If we consider ourselves stewards to the environment, spraying raw petroleum oil onto our clients' properties and onto our clothes and tools and onto the trees that sustain our incomes, well, we should all consider who we say we are, and what it is we are actually doing. Action speaks louder than words.


started my head wondering about veg oil after doing a job in light rain. The oil sheens were every where and petro contaminated saw shavings littering the gardens made me aware of what I was doing, didn't feel too good. To think I've got a degree in environmental science.


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## bushman

it would be great to have a bio-ran company,we have bio-desl.for trucks ,only if we had mixgas bio for saws and blowers,get's you thnking and a good marketing tool as well for selling work.this has been a good thread!


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## TheKid

*head to head usage*

I waded through ALL the pages on this one but was surprised not to find this simple test. Fill one ms200t with regular stihl bar oil and fill another with veg. oil. Assuming the oiler mechanisms on each are set the same, run them similarly and see wich one runs out of oil first. Make sense? Am I overlooking something?


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## TheKid

P.S. Once I've healed from this pesky tonsillectomy and am back in action, I'm gonna petition the boss to make the switch to veg on our most used saws! Big ups to those on the forefront of this research project!


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## tam

good idea!but i don't fancy fancy fillin two saws then revving the knackers off them.. i see wot yu mean tho dude. i'm only messin.

this really has been a good thread. it's cool that we're able to share opinions with people the other side of the atlantic.


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## soutz

Mate been using veg oil for two years, brilliant. Its good for the hands, good if you get it on any ropes, saves money, your not breathing mineral oil that has been vaporised,all good. the enviroment gets a helping hand as well, we use it in top handles and bars as big as 42 inch no problem.


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## Treeman14

I quit using the veggie-based bar lubes from Husky and Stihl about 6-8 years ago when my local dealer said they were no longer available. I had been paying around $18 - $20 per gallon since the late 80's, in other words, about $10,000 worth! I always felt the benefit to the environment was worth the extra cost and I used that as a marketing tool as well. 

Thanks to this thread, I'm going to switch to canola oil. Thank you Tree Machine et. al. for the motivation.


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## tam

you just remember your friends when you save all that money...


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## treemendous

*Veg oil*

Ok I'm convinced. I ran a blend cuz I was worried it wouldn't work. I'm switching to canola oil. No more haz-mat issues in the gardens. Great thread


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## Tree Machine

I hear a number of you seeming rather specific about canola, and that's cool, but all the vegetable-based oils are very much identical in performance. Corn oil is a little more yellow in color. Oil labelled Vegetable Oil is probably soybean oil. Corn, soybean and canola will be your big three and should be used interchangably. My choice is always the least expensive.

TreeMan14, I respect you taking your earlier stance to assist the environment in this way, especially when jugs are 20 bucks a crack. Doing the right thing at your own expense is honorable. I'm just glad we could make it more reasonable for you. Working around pools is probably fairly common for you, a well as retention ponds, streams and maybe even the bay itself. As we all know, pollution, especially around water, is a real concern. By us Arborists making this simple, effortless and cost-saving change we shift from being part of the problem to being part of the solution. I really think this speaks well of us as an industry. 

I know, personally, when a client sees vegetable oil in my tool area it often sparks an intrigue and a lot of them ask what's up with vegetable oil. I gladly tell them. The non-saw users don't realize that every single drop of oil put into the bar tank gets dispersed right back into the environment, or on to their property. They often seem pleased that it's simple vegetable oil, rather than heavy crude.

My promise to you guys is full disclosure, so here is a negative aspect; if you spill vegetable oil on concrete, it will leave a stain. Grinding chips or sawdust into the spill will not help much, but if you can score some detergent or soap, and a brush, you can erase it almost completely, depends on the concrete surface. Smooth concrete is easier to clean up. The rough, brushed concrete takes more effort. Leaving it there untreated will discolor the concrete, just know this.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

Tree Machine said:


> IThe non-saw users don't realize that every single drop of oil put into the bar tank gets dispersed right back into the environment, or on to their property.



Did you see the link Tom D. posted that indicated that as much as 5% of bar oil ended up either in, or on, the operator?


----------



## jomoco

*I believe it*



Mike Maas said:


> Did you see the link Tom D. posted that indicated that as much as 5% of bar oil ended up either in, or on, the operator?



I believe it, especially when your goundie isn't familiar with the new fangled oil caps on the ms200T after he refuels it for you! LOL

Seriously, I've decided to try veggie oil in a few of my older climbing saws first, if it works out well, I'll switch over because it makes good sense environmentally, and I'm tired of getting ripped off paying 7 bucks a gallon for bar oil.

Good thread, even old dogs can change their ways.

jomoco


----------



## Tree Machine

MM said:


> Did you see the link Tom D. posted that indicated that as much as 5% of bar oil ended up either in, or on, the operator?


Yes I did, Mike, and I feel that's significant. It is the primary reason I switched over and then the environmental benefits became more and more clear.

I concern myself with the health of my fellow treeguys. _Bar oil in or on you_. That means a number of things. We know the oil sprays off in tiny, essentially invisible little atomized mist droplets. If the wind is wrong, it comes back at you, on the surface of your skin, in the air you breath, and on your clothes. Think about this the next time you wipe a light coating off the lenses of your safety glasses. Have you ever had a day where your lips feel like you put chap stick on them, but you haven't?

I don't know this for certain, but intuitively I believe most treeguys don't carry soap around and water to wash with. We handle the caps of our saws and get oil on our hands. Oil gets on our tools and we handle the tools and our hands are exposed. If we have oily hands and put them inside gloves, the inside of the gloves now have a residue that transfers back to our clean hands tomorrow morning. We maintain our bars and chains and our hands get oily. Oil on our hands is a reality in our job. It is daily repeated exposure. If we don't have the opportunity to wash, we have tainted hands all day.

I concern myself with Mr oily hands picking up a sandwich. And a good many of us smoke.... can you see how this repeated day after day exposure to bar oil and the NUMBER of different ways it can get on us or in us? This is just during our work hours, then you drag your filthy trousers in and throw em in the wash, possibly along with other clothes. We like to assume the clothes come out free of any oil residue, but do they really? Do we really know?

Just being aware of the ways the oil can get in us or on us is being personally responsible. None of us want ill repercussions years later after working our butts off so hard. Awareness is advised over ignorance. We do get exposed, it's almost impossible to avoid. I'd rather be exposed to veggie oil than crude bar- not that I claim veggie is OK to breath, but flat out common sense would say that crude bar would be the worse of the two.

Just food for thought.


----------



## JohnH

We use it when we cut near watershed areas. We just did a job in the peoples republic of Cambridge and I used it for bar oil when we were cutting next to the water.


----------



## soutz

Hey treeman have you used kitty litter for a clean up on concrete. we carry a bag with us as a clean of spills. certainly cuts back on the stains


----------



## Erwin

bushman said:


> Stihil makes a bio bar oil at 20 bucks a gallon.they don't have it stock most of the time .



Great information! I can't wait to start using my 5 gal vegie oil from Sam's Club. I think that we pay $15 for a 5-gal jug. The regular chain oil from home depot is $8 a gal. Thanks a lot!


----------



## John464

Im thinking about trying this. My employees will initially think Ive lost my mind and Im sure will have atleast a week of jokes/laughs about this. This should be fun

After reading this thread the summary is


Pro's

*Cheaper than regular oil

Better for the health of the trees we work on

Better for operator health

Customers will look at you funny but after explaining the benefits they will like the new method*


Con's

*You will have to re-adjust the oiler in each saw you have after adding Veggie Oil*


----------



## Tree Machine

There's really no reason to readjust your oiler. I never have, on any of the saws.


----------



## Tree Machine

Oops, with this one exception. The extendable chainsaw on a stick, the Power Pruner. On this one I took the oiler and oil tank off completely to spare some weight out there on the end. This one I hand-oil. I keep the veggie in a 200 ml plastic bottle with one of those little flip-tip spouts. Every few minutes I re-oil, or when the chain gets pretty dry you can hear it. This saw doesn't get a lot of continuous use and I'm pretty dialled-in to when it needs a shot. Also the chain doesn't move at 10-12 K so continuous oiling is not a critical issue like the other ones.


----------



## Tom Dunlap

I'm SOOOO happy that the veggie oil parade is getting bigger. Years ago I started to try some experiments. All of my results follow along with TM's.

There is NO downside to using veggies


----------



## Tree Machine

Amazing, eh?

As far as a parade, we're still a pretty small group. Of all arborists out there, only a fraction come to arboristsite. Of that fraction, only some will read this thread. Of that 'some' we get our growing parade.


We are a very small minority of saw users that have this new understanding. I'd like to see a larger chunk of our treeguy population at least get introduced to the idea, just that they have the new information and would then know it's OK to use veggie over bar. Of that much larger segment, more will give it a try and I think that at some point usage will reach a sort of critical mass where there are enough veggie guys passing the information around to bar guys that we will really have effected a real change, industry-wide. 

I _feel_ the change in the recent converts, and it is exciting. Of all the treeguys and saw users out there (easily tens of thousands), I cringe to think of how many dozens of barrels of petroleum oil are getting sprayed onto mother earth _every single day_. :help:

You owners who are converting, and standing up to the rants of your crew, good on you. In a very short time the veggie will prove itself, flat-out, and they'll see the added benefits on top of the perfect performance. Having no downsides to the change, only benefits, really helps the cause.


----------



## Sprig

From small rumblings....................
What would be really nice to see is some dealers and mechanics join said parade, get informed. The testimonials here are a great start, the more the merrier. I wonder what the ripple effect would be if a couple stopped carrying petroleum based bar oils and loaded up on Mazola instead, do up some nice chainsaw-ish stickers and re-bag it in old milk jugs (that aren't recyclable, here anyhoo). Just a thought. Grass roots thing here and I have no aversion to pushing this idea whenever I get a chance, just makes too much sense. Could be an interesting business venture too for an enterprising person especially anyone near one of the processing plants (veggie ones in the mid west me thinks), might swing a good deal on bulk.........Hmmmmmm..:monkey:


----------



## Firewoodster

*Here's The Deal!*

I mix bar oil and used vegie oil from the deep fryers at my restaurant and have not had a problem whil;e using it in two years. I run the saws for a couple of minutes once a month with diesal fuel in the oil reservoir to loosen anything that may get hung up, just as a precaution. Sure saves some bucks on bar oil....
Check out your local restaurants.....If they don't have a contract with a local disposer, more than likely they'll give you all that you want. Just be sure and strain it before you use it. (hint) cut the foot out of your wife's panty hose (after you've eaten the rest of it, preferribly not the fishnet style) and use it as a strainer. It's free, but cost Thousands of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ over the years........

Just my .02


----------



## GASoline71

Save the Wesson oil for Florence Henderson and french fries, and the hippies that think bar oil is destroying the planet. You're runnin' a 2-stroke for cryin' out loud... whaddaya think that thing is doin' to the environment?:deadhorse: 

Gary


----------



## Wes

*In the motor, too...*

Other than the free quart of bar oil I got with my first saw, I've used canola exclusively on the bar. Doesn't stink, isn't sticky, cleans up with soap and water, etc. Got in trouble once when I ran out and went into the kitchen to get some more. Got into a pickle when my wife found the empty Grapeseed Oil can. Probably spent $10 on that pint. When I'm not going to use the saw for a while I take off the bar, clean it up, and then spray real good with Remington's dry-lube down into the groove.

In the motor: I have also used my own concoction of 50% LawnBoy oil/50% Canola in my two-stroke mix for my trimmers and the Pull-On. It goes into everything at a tad fatter than 50:1, maybe 45:1. The smell is much nicer than straight dino, and the motors don't seem to care. The Pull-On has 40-50 tanks of gas through it and runs like a top. I'll take the mufflers off of some tools and post piston pics if I get around to it. There's a little carbon on the piston tops, but some Seafoam once or twice a year takes care of that.

I do not use my part-veg mix in my Stihl, mostly out of warranty concerns. I won't lie about my mix if I ever need warranty work, and I don't want the dealer to be in a tight spot, wondering if I've violated the warranty.


----------



## bwalker

> Did you see the link Tom D. posted that indicated that as much as 5% of bar oil ended up either in, or on, the operator?


 I wouldnt assume that inhalling vegi oil is any better for you than inhalling petrol based bar oil. Veggie oil minus a tac agent may actually lead to more inhalation over regular bar oil.


----------



## DOLMARatOs

I don't know about the rest of the world, but we get $6.00 for Dolmar Bar oil in the gallon jug. I'd like to introduce some veggie oil to my guys but what happens to the oil if the saw sits around for awhile?

I still think the tac properties of bar oil are important. I'd enjoy being proven wrong in my use of Dino oil. 

Any published studies or real world data on how affective veggie oil is with bar and chain wear and tear in tough hard wood would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Tree Machine

TM said:


> not that I claim veggie is OK to breath, but flat out common sense would say that crude bar would be the worse of the two.





bwalker said:


> I wouldnt assume that inhalling vegi oil is any better for you than inhalling petrol based bar oil. Veggie oil minus a tac agent may actually lead to more inhalation over regular bar oil.


Thanks, Ben. Other than repeating something already said, you've contributed something new with no substantiation as to why you think this might be true. 

One thing we know is true is that it ALL comes off the bar, every bit of it, whether tackified bar, or vegetable, tack or no tack. It is pumped on and it comes off. In this sense, the two oils are pretty much identical. But you propose, for some reason, that straight veggie could, "actually lead to more inhalation over regular bar oil." Ben, I have a feeling the general wind direction and the chain speed and the direction your bar tip is pointing in regards to the wind while in use would be the major factors.

I've heard in the past that veggie flies off easier, but all the oil flies off, regardless of whether it is transmission fluid, used motor oil, baby oil, whatever; _it all comes off_. There is no real difference in oils in this regard. None of them stay on the bar. They are pumped on, do ther job lubricating, and spin off. Everybody here experiences this identically.



Gas said:


> You're runnin' a 2-stroke for cryin' out loud... whaddaya think that thing is doin' to the environment?


Being combusted and released as a variety of combustion by-products. It has nothing to do with this topic.


----------



## Tree Machine

DOLMARatOs said:


> what happens to the oil if the saw sits around for awhile?


Do you have veggie oil in your kitchen cabinet that sits around for awhile? What happens to it? There's your answer. it has a really good shelf life, in part to the vitamin E antioxidant that's added at processing.



DOLMARatOs said:


> Any published studies or real world data on how affective veggie oil is with bar and chain wear and tear in tough hard wood would be greatly appreciated.


The academic community simply can't run their saws as hard and consistently as commercial arborists. If they were to publish something, their best feedback would likely come from us. If they set saws up on 'saw machines' to run thousands of cuts, side by side, that wouldn't be 'real world'. I think having thousands of saws running veggie in the real world, sharing the information and outcomes of their experiences would be the best study possible.

I think we're as real-world as it gets.

Anyway, here's a downloadable publication from the United States Department of Agriculture. Elmore gave this to us in page 2 of this thread, http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdf/98511316.pdf


----------



## GASoline71

Tree Machine said:


> Being combusted and released as a variety of combustion by-products. It has nothing to do with this topic.



  opcorn: opcorn: 

Gary


----------



## DOLMARatOs

Tree Machine,

Thanks for the information. I think I'll try some veggie oil in my saw the next time I use it.

What oil are we talking here? Corn oil like Crisco or what? Can i go wrong with veggie oil? Is there anything bad to use? 

I am 100% open to using a green oil. Especially with a lot of my cutters being near waterways. Or those with livestock and other critters running around.


----------



## Elmore

Tree Machine said:


> Anyway, here's a downloadable publication from the United States Department of Agriculture. Elmore gave this to us in page 2 of this thread, http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdf/98511316.pdf



Yeah...that's the ticket. A published study with some real world data. Also information as to health effects of exposure to petroleum oils.


----------



## Elmore

I hear that olive oil would not be a good oil to use. Good for your heart and Popeye but not a bar and chain. Go with canola...it works well...greater affinity to metal surfaces and better lubricity.


----------



## DOLMARatOs

Why Canola oil as opposed to another type of vegtable oil? Crisco is cheap.

One reason to use green oils is the environment, the rest is cost. Most guys aren't going to spend more money on oil just cuz it helps the environment. These same guys pour their old gas on the weeds in their driveway.


----------



## Justsaws

Oils I liked:soy bean
canola

Oils I did not: corn oil, carbonized to much and solidified to fast.

Sam's Club usually has 35# for less than $15.00 which is around 5 gallons. I like the heat stabilized cooking oils they carry. Works good. I do consume more soy oil than petro oil per tank of gas. I would say between 10-25%, depending on the saw. Branded bar oil around here is $9.50 -14.50 a gallon this year. Store brands and Poulan is around $4.00. My wife likes how easily the veggie oils wash out of the clothes and the smell better. The environmental concerns should be what can be done to reduce the amount of petro oil consumed and dispersed. It is a simple concept. I am always amazed by how hard it is for people to grasp that less usage and dispersal is better, that is why most new saws come with modern low volume oilers and manual backups are a thing of the past. For the average user there should not be a down side if the saw is properly maintained. If they cannot maintain a saw, then they should not have one. Same goes for cars, guns and kids.


----------



## Elmore

DOLMARatOs said:


> Why Canola oil as opposed to another type of vegtable oil? ...



Canola has a greater affinity to metal surfaces and better lubricity than mineral oils.


----------



## Justsaws

DOLMARatOs said:


> Why Canola oil as opposed to another type of vegtable oil? Crisco is cheap.
> 
> One reason to use green oils is the environment, the rest is cost. Most guys aren't going to spend more money on oil just cuz it helps the environment. These same guys pour their old gas on the weeds in their driveway.



Feel free to call those guys exactly what they are. They are stupid and the very reason why there are so many environmental laws. You do not have to spend more to be good to the environment. If Chevy(any car company) sold gas, would they be so stupid as to only buy Chevy brand gas.


----------



## madmax

I think we should all run veggie oil so we can grow more sunflower seeds for the spotted owls. WHAT THE HELL AM I READING HERE? A saw forum promoting enviros.? Burn ALL the oil u can, lets just stick with America's resources


----------



## Justsaws

madmax said:


> I think we should all run veggie oil so we can grow more sunflower seeds for the spotted owls. WHAT THE HELL AM I READING HERE? A saw forum promoting enviros.? Burn ALL the oil u can, lets just stick with America's resources



That would be a short burn. Maybe five-10 years, unless the Golf kicks hard faster. Spotted owls are pretty. I like eagles and hawks too. Ducks drive me quackers. I must say that I have always like a good pair of hooters.


----------



## Sprig

madmax said:


> I think we should all run veggie oil so we can grow more sunflower seeds for the spotted owls. WHAT THE HELL AM I READING HERE? A saw forum promoting enviros.? Burn ALL the oil u can, lets just stick with America's resources


  not.
This makes about as much sense as *insert your own cliche here* :censored: 'n :bang: 
Stick with America's resources??? Man, me thinks you've been running too many machines up wind............oh, you must mean money, the stuff you buy oil with, from other places.........doh!! An oh agin, owls are carnivors and, this particular forum is inside an arborist's site, people who do generally care about the plants and environment around them, sheesh, get a grip lolol. Remember this next time yer out fishing and have to identify the species by counting the eyes and size of tumors.

 
opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


----------



## Tzed250

*Beans*

Castor oil is a great natural lubricant. I have used it in my bikes and saws for years. I am gonna give the canola a shot. I'd rather pay an American farmer for his veggie than a sheik for his dino!


----------



## Tree Machine

Tree Machine said:


> Anyway, here's a downloadable publication from the United States Department of Agriculture. Elmore gave this to us in page 2 of this thread, http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdf/98511316.pdf


This study did point out a negative, in descibing one vegetable oil, it was stated "Rall would not recommend using these products in a fire situation such as bucking burning logs because it appeared that the oil comes off or evaporates in extremely hot conditions.


----------



## begleytree

moved by request.
-Ralph


----------



## M.D. Vaden

Maybe I missed it, but will the Canola oil use void a saws warrantee?


----------



## Tree Machine

That's a very good question, MD.

Stihl makes bio oil, 99+% veggie, and if using straight veggie could void a warrantee, then arguably Stihl Bio plus would also.


----------



## JonnyHart

My partner ran veggie oil in a new 440 to cut his wedding cake last week.


----------



## Sunrise Guy

I use 100% vegetable oil for my bar oil. No problems, but it builds up my appetite when it heats up and smells like food's cooking. That can sometimes be a bit like torture if I'm already hungry. When you're cutting in the full sun and you see your chain throwing off that petroleum-based bar oil, think about what you're inhaling when the wind blows that crap back at your face, and then go out and get some vegetable oil. You'll be glad you did.


----------



## tam

yeah man.

imagine cutting your wedding cake with a chainsaw!! haha lol!! that's awesome:biggrinbounce2: :biggrinbounce2:


----------



## Tree Machine

I've heard a couple guys mention the smell and of it makin em hungry. I've taken it as a joke because in all the years I've used veggie, the only time I smelled a 'flavor' was when using peanut oil and it smelled like, suprisingly, peanuts. The other oils have a very inert smell to begin with. In the hundreds of days of cutting with veggie so far, I really push the saws. The 346 with the impressive RPMs it can dish out, as well as the power to back it, I'm more gentle when climbing and trimming, but when bucking firewood I'm crankin the dawgs and being rather aggressive, pushing the saw hard like I'm sure many of us do. As for the 395, that baby was made to cut big wood and I pressure that saw to perform to its outer limits.

I actually _try_ to wear the bar, but at the same time I am a freak about keeping the chains sharp.

So the smell is still kind of a mystery topic. If you are using strained, filtered fryer oil (which I don't personally recommend), then it starts out with an aroma so it stands to reason that running it through a saw, you will smell fish or french fries, or breaded mushrooms, mmmm.... (uh, back on topic), when it gets sprayed out into the environment. I can imagine a very confused and frustrated family of raccoons visiting your jobsite at night just KNOWING there's a meal _somewhere_ in the area.  

As far as corn, it's the starch that gives corn its corny smell and there's no starch in corn oil. I don't even know what a canola smells like. Soybean? Again, just a very neutral aroma, cold or hot.

If you get a smell, note whether your saw is expelling powder or chips. Is it cutting through the wood slowly, or is each cut making you smile? Are you forcing it, or is the saw doing the work and pulling itself through the cut? Are you getting ANY smoke coming from the kerf? Is your bar turning blue on the pressure side? These questions will determine the amount of wear on your bar and chain system and will be consistent no matter what oil you use, veggie or dino. If you run dull chain, you will increase the wear on your bar, that is just a fact. Keeping your chain sharp is a personal responsibility. I just can not stress enough the importance of that.

(upcoming, veggie in subfreezing temps and veggie while milling)


----------



## mdaalmeijer

*Thanks Tree Machine*

Tree Machine, 
Thank you for your effort and integrity. 

No more petroleum based oil for my chains and bars! Will spread the word over here when i have had my own test.

Greetings and all the best 
with respect,
maarten


----------



## Tree Machine

mdaalmeijer said:


> Tree Machine,
> Thank you for your effort and integrity.
> 
> No more petroleum based oil for my chains and bars! Will spread the word over here when i have had my own test.
> 
> Greetings and all the best
> with respect,
> maarten


Thank you, Maarten. A visitor from France is a special treat for us. Welcome!


----------



## beowulf343

Tree Machine said:


> (upcoming, veggie in subfreezing temps)


Looking forward to hearing about this. Switched over to cooking oil in my smaller saws last week (your arguments were very persuasive, congrats.) Seems to be running fine so far and will probably switch over in my long bars in a few weeks. But running it in freezing temps is my biggest concern. Also the fact that my saws usually stay right in the back of my truck (don't worry, I have a cap so at least they're not getting snowed on) unless they are being worked on. So if I leave a saw out in zero degree weather overnight with a full oil tank, how long before it warms up enough to flow the next morning?


----------



## 26newtreeguy

*Just started runing veg oil it works great so far*

I have 200t and huskey 575xp it work really good. My employee thought I was nuts for using it. But it does work good and price it for $3.99 gallon and no sells taxes in Ma on veg oil.


----------



## Tree Machine

Yea, you don't have to pay sales tax on food.


Between you and me, 26-noob, this is our little way of 'stickin it to the man.  

And getting back to beowulf's straight-on question about low temperature veggie behavior.

What excellent timing. In the northern hemisphere of earth, right now, Winter weather is marching forward. Around Dec 1 the whole eastern third of the US got wallopped by a major rain and wind system. The lower half of that third got miosture as rain. The upper half of the midwest, eastern US got rain, freezing rain, snow, sharp drops in temperatures where everything froze and that all started last weekend. It's now Friday and right now, 7:45 am it is frickin COLD. It has been constantly frozen for about a week straight.

I been out working in it every day, because with tree guys, y'know what they say about serious storm weather...... when the sun shines......


----------



## Tree Machine

OK, so here's the deal. EVERYONE in that map area is experiencing the cold; so are everyone west and east of that map. Beowulf is more east and more north. I am SURE you are experiencing temps around 0 degrees F.

How is YOUR veggie oil performing in this weather? Mine's fine, so I've almost got to assume yours is, too. In 0 degree F weather, if your oil flows, you're good to go. The oil doesn't change lubricity in cold weather, it retains all that. What changes, though only ever so slightly, is the pourability characteristics coming out of the bottle.


Since everyone in the northern half of the US and ALL of CANADA is frozen, I invite any one of the dozens of you to pipe in and share what your veggie does in the cold.

There is only one way I can share with you, how corn oil pours in the actual temperatures we're talkin about here, so I'm going outside with the video camera, and a red paper plate (for contrast) and I'm gonna ford this frozen, forsaken tundra so YOU can see how veggie oil flows at 8 degrees, F.

Brrrrr. Gimme a minute on this. You just sit right there, or get yourself a cup of hot chocolate while I freeze my butt off for youz guyz.


----------



## osb_mail

*I know this post is a little old*

I just had tonsillectomy it is good to know I am not the only one. How long did you take off work .


----------



## Tree Machine

... take off work, Huh? Who said anything about that? I had a full schedule, and then this storm event thing. I haven't had a day off in almost two weeks. Shoulda taken that one rain day off because the next day all my ropes and saddle and biners were all frozen. Slings as stiff as rods. It made climbing and rigging very challenging.


OK, in this video, you'll note a little camera shake, that's because I'm, freezing my arse off. I missed the first pour, so I had to get the oil back in the bottle, then pour it again so you can clearly see what veggie looks like.

Then Elizabeth wants me to take out the garbage.

All I want is to have a nice, warm cup of coffee, read a few threads, let the sun come up. Instead I'm hiking the Arctic in a bathrobe and slippers, freezing my arse off. This is not my beautiful thought, this is not my comfortable place....what...? How did I get here? 

D )

Here, you guys enjoy the video. I've gotta go to work.


----------



## osb_mail

*??tree machine*

I was replay to the kid who had a tonsillectomy about a month ago . i just had the same surgery done .If you were talking about missing work cause of the cold I do snow removal so I never miss work cause it is cold out .


----------



## osb_mail

*Just a thought*

Almost everybody is adgreeing that this works .So now if everybody that own a chainsaw started using veggie this would differently make some kind of difference. I am just afraid that all my friend will laugh at me when i start pouring veggie oil in my saw . I will try this on at least one of my saws .


----------



## Tree Machine

Here's how to make those silly blokes laugh. You empty out one of those veggie oil jugs, a quart or whatever. Empty it out real good, and refill it with apple juice. If they give you even the least bit of a hard time, you tell em 

"It's because it's NON-TOXIC to the environment and to all living things. It's safe to work with and I'll prove it."

Hand him a jug of petro oil. You grab the jug of apple juice.

"I dare ya."


----------



## Tree Machine

"I double dare ya."


----------



## Tree Machine

"I double _dog_ dare you."


----------



## Tree Machine

"I triple dog dare ya, Mo Fo!:bang: 


And then just chug the sucker  .


----------



## Sprig

Tree Machine said:


> "I triple dog dare ya, Mo Fo!:bang:
> 
> 
> And then just chug the sucker  .



LOLOL, .............................why da juice??


----------



## Tree Machine

OK, I'm being silly. But just for the sake of additional silliness, the veggie jugs I buy most often are 48oz. X 28.6 grams in an ounce= 1,373 grams and there are 9 calories per gram of at, 9 x 1,373= 12,355 calories of food energy (Kcals)






So there are 576 calories in a Big Mac

12,355 divided by 576.....



Calorically speaking, there are 21.45 Big Macs in a medium-size bottle of cooking oil.


----------



## woodchux

You guys have got me thinking about how much oil i actually pour out into the environment. Usually at least 2 gallons per week x 50 weeks. That is one hell of a lot of contamination! I'm gonna make the switch over to the safer cleaner veg oil as soon as i finish off these last couple jugs of poulan oil.
Plus it has to be a great marketing advantage.


----------



## Tree Machine

The advantages stack up quickly.


----------



## Sprig

Tree Machine said:


> OK, I'm being silly. But just for the sake of additional silliness, the veggie jugs I buy most often are 48oz. X 28.6 grams in an ounce= 1,373 grams and there are 9 calories per gram of at, 9 x 1,373= 12,355 calories of food energy (Kcals)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So there are 576 calories in a Big Mac
> 
> 12,355 divided by 576.....
> 
> 
> 
> Calorically speaking, there are 21.45 Big Macs in a medium-size bottle of cooking oil.


Ya you missed my pointless point, you should be able to (or not *gag*) glook back a half bottle of veggi oil and iffin you don't barf, collect yer bet, eat a couple of raw eggs and go for a sauna, hey mom, look, no dishes! On a fine note show me 1 person that wouldn't puke after 10 Big Macs....... Aw carp nm, I go now sleep


----------



## beowulf343

Tree Machine said:


> Shoulda taken that one rain day off because the next day all my ropes and saddle and biners were all frozen. Slings as stiff as rods. It made climbing and rigging very challenging.


Ha, ha. You know it's going to be a good day on the job when you pull your ropes out of the truck and the coils stand upright on the ground all by themselves! That's part of the reason i quit using three strand bull ropes-I swear when they got frozen, they somehow morphed into rebar!!



Tree Machine said:


> OK, so here's the deal. EVERYONE in that map area is experiencing the cold; so are everyone west and east of that map. Beowulf is more east and more north. I am SURE you are experiencing temps around 0 degrees F.
> 
> How is YOUR veggie oil performing in this weather? Mine's fine, so I've almost got to assume yours is, too. In 0 degree F weather, if your oil flows, you're good to go. The oil doesn't change lubricity in cold weather, it retains all that. What changes, though only ever so slightly, is the pourability characteristics coming out of the bottle.


Actually, I've been lucky this week (or unlucky depending on how you look at it.) The first real cold spell this winter and I haven't had to work out in it all week!! Had a "christmas decorating accident" last week and the doctor has me on light duty till next Wednesday. So I've just been driving around all week bidding jobs for the company while you poor saps are busy working. Haven't been in a tree or even started a saw for 7 days now-starting to get a bit shaky, think I'm going through withdrawal.:help: But it has been cold!! Bid a job this morning in the back hills of Cattaraugus County-27 inches of snow, 8 below!
So to answer your question, I don't yet know how my veggie oil is performing in this weather. Had a couple of days before the "accident" that were down in the teens and I didn't have any trouble. But I have kept a half full jug of canola, corn and veggie oil sitting outside the shop all week. When i go in every morning, I check out their pourability (is that a word?) So far down to 4 above and no serious problem filling a saw-just pours a little slower. But hey, what doesn't move slower in cold weather? Even I take a little longer getting out of the truck when the mercury hovers around zero. Oh, and the other half of the oil that was in those jugs? Well, one of the concerns I had was the oil freezing, expanding, and cracking the oil tank. Yeah, I know, a little 'out there', but I've seen stranger things happen. So I poured each of the oils into a cup and threw them in the freezer. Tree-Machine was right!! They don't really freeze and expand. They just turn into a gelatinous slurry. Corn and veggie oil seemed to 'jello' at around zero. But the canola is still runny even after two days in the freezer!! I don't know if I just have a weak freezer or if I somehow got some mutated, super canola. But I am impressed. And the speed at which the three oils warm up is very impressive. Even the corn and veggie when fully gelled, thawed enough to pour after just a couple minutes on the floor of my truck with the heater running. However, the truck is not always running, so I had my groundies experiment with setting the bottle of oil on the cover of my chipper engine (which stays running pretty regularly.) Even with the chipper at idle and the temps between 5 and 10 all day, they reported no problems keeping the oil runny (just have to remember to take the bottle off the chipper before leaving the job-may have to weld a little box there just to hold it.) I actually have no more reservations about running canola in my saws. Will start running it full time when I'm back to work. 
TM, sorry if I just reiterated what you've been saying. I just had to test your claims for myself. 


Tree Machine said:


> OK, in this video, you'll note a little camera shake, that's because I'm, freezing my arse off. I missed the first pour, so I had to get the oil back in the bottle, then pour it again so you can clearly see what veggie looks like.
> 
> Then Elizabeth wants me to take out the garbage.
> 
> All I want is to have a nice, warm cup of coffee, read a few threads, let the sun come up. Instead I'm hiking the Arctic in a bathrobe and slippers, freezing my arse off. This is not my beautiful thought, this is not my comfortable place....what...? How did I get here?


Got to admit-I'm impressed with your passion when it comes to extolling the virtues of veggie oil!


----------



## Tree Machine

I think pointing out the positives of veggie is a better approach than pointing out the negatives of petro. I like to think the information is being laid out for the operators, the actual use and trial will make a believer. Now, the difference between bar and veg at these low temperatures, you say the veg pours a little slower, and that is true, but the bar you will have to wait- it gets slower with every degree of temperature drop. 

Once inside, if the saw is cold, veggie still goes through the pump without any extra effort on part of the oil pump. If you really work with the stuff you see that veggie doesn't really change viscosity. Seemingly it does, but only when the oil is still. Once moving, or agitated, flow characteristics improve, regardless of temperature. With petro bar, it remains very thick, very viscous until the insides of the saw warm up. Until then, the oil pump, is under strain. Agitation or the motion of flow do not change the viscosity of bar.


The expansion/cracking of the tank, that's not at all possible. Expansion due to freezing is purely a water thing, very unusual characteristic that it expands once it hits its freezing point. Pretty much every other substance, compound or element on earth contracts when colder.

I've got a tip for when your veggie gets really gellacious, I mean if you're into working in below zero F weather and you're out there suckin it up and makin it happen, but that'll have to wait. Got a juicy, multi-stem maple over a house and deck I started yesterday afternoon and gotta go.

Please be careful warming your veggie up near the chipper manifold. I have never warmed my veggie to get it to pour, but the simple 'fix' I'm gonna show you will amaze you in its simplicity and wipes out the 'problem' of low temp pouring. 

Remember, the only real hangup here is getting the oil from the bottle into the saw. The saw has no problems pumping super cold veggie. I think you will understand why a little better when I show you this trick. It deserves a picture.


----------



## beowulf343

Tree Machine said:


> Once inside, if the saw is cold, veggie still goes through the pump without any extra effort on part of the oil pump. If you really work with the stuff you see that veggie doesn't really change viscosity. Seemingly it does, but only when the oil is still. Once moving, or agitated, flow characteristics improve, regardless of temperature. With petro bar, it remains very thick, very viscous until the insides of the saw warm up. Until then, the oil pump, is under strain. Agitation or the motion of flow do not change the viscosity of bar.
> The saw has no problems pumping super cold veggie.


That's what I wanted to hear from the very beginning!!


Tree Machine said:


> The expansion/cracking of the tank, that's not at all possible. Expansion due to freezing is purely a water thing, very unusual characteristic that it expands once it hits its freezing point. Pretty much every other substance, compound or element on earth contracts when colder.


Really, I didn't know that-learn something new everyday!! Obviously science was not my best subject in school.:blush: 


Tree Machine said:


> Please be careful warming your veggie up near the chipper manifold.


Didn't have it on the manifold. Just set the bottle on top of the steel cowling that covers the engine. Doesn't get hot but does warm up enough to melt the snow off it.


----------



## (WLL)

*ever fri ur potatos in bar oil*

:monkey:  :help: :jawdrop: :deadhorse:


----------



## Tree Machine

Here are couple of pics, a few years old, It was between -5 and -10 degrees F, and this was what the oil looked like.


----------



## Tree Machine

Now, oil listed as VEGETABLE will be soybean oil, that's different from corn and different from canola. Molecularly, these oils differ just enough that they posess slightly different physical and chemical characteristics. Soybean is the first to reach a semisolid state, then corn, then canola. Olive oil (not recommended for saws) will do this in the fridge.

Right around 0 degrees F (-18) is where the three of them reach their _freezing point_, a critical temperature where a phase change occurs, where these veg oils go from a clear liquid to an opaque solid with liquid characteristics, more like a liquid with suspended solids that aren't at all 'solid'. AT it's freezing point, the phase change is subtle, hardly noticable from the saw operator's standpoint, but as the temp drops, the vegg becomes less and less of a 'liquid'. As temps dive further (for you polar or Antarctic tree guys) the consistency of a thin pudding. At sub-arctic (deep freeze) temps, I imagine there is a point where the oil would be hard as butter, but realistically, 0 degrees F is a good benchmark for two reasons. 1) this is the phase change zone for veggie oils and 2) much below this, tree guys generally are not out working in it and don't care what the veggie's doing out there at 10 below.

There are the molecular reasons the oils differ and therefore behave ever so slightly different from one another. That stuff really doesn't interest most people. Canola though, because of it's particular molecular setup, will stay liquid at lower temps than almost all the others. Like Beo said,


> They don't really freeze and expand. They just turn into a gelatinous slurry. Corn and veggie oil seemed to 'jello' at around zero. But the canola is still runny even after two days in the freezer!!



So, the official solution to this 'problem' is, buy whatever veggie oil is the cheapest in general, but when it comes to super cold weather, run straight canola.

I really think, having used petro bar the first 8 or 9 Winters, and having used veggie, this now being my 4th winter, that veggie oil has flow advantages superior to dino bar. Just much better behaved.


----------



## okietreedude1

Ive read the whole post with interest but only 1 time did I read any mention of peanut oil and that was w/ smell.

How does the peanut oil stand up compared to vegie and the others?

I know they sell it in large amounts for frying turkeys.


----------



## ddhlakebound

I've been reading this thread with interest also. And my last jug of bar oil is almost empty. The benefits are easy to see, and I'm ready to make the switch to veggie oil. 

My question is....whats the most economical place/volume/type to buy? What are you guys running it paying? 

As I'm typing, I just thought of calling a buddy of mine who manages a fast food restaurant. He gets 5 gallon plastic jugs of the stuff, gotta find out how much one of those costs....


----------



## 046

Sam's got 5gal jugs of veggie oil for $12.50


----------



## Tree Machine

5 gal for 12.50? That's the most inexpensive I've heard of.

Peanut stands up well. Peanut oil takes high heat better than many other oils, which is why it's popularly used in deep fryers. However we try not to create high heat on a bar and chain. High friction and heat is what kills bars and wears driver links.

Peanut has gotten minimal attention here for only this one reason: It's more expensive than the others, not by much, but I encourage our fellow climbers to get whatever veggie oil is the cheapest.

All the vegetable based oils we use are so very close to each other in both molecular structure and lubricity that unless you get down to subfreezing temps, the differences, other than maybe a little difference in the shade of the oil's color and a little scent is so minimal. I LOOK for the differences, intentionally, so I can bring you good, clean info. Canola does seem to have advantages over the others, but still, it's splitting hairs.

Peanut oil would be my favored oil because I can get it in 5 gallon lugs from Lowe's in the fryer/barbecue section. BUT, it's more expensive than other choices and its only going a whirl around the bar a time or two and then sprayed out into the environment. I won't pay a penny more than I have to for a product when it's ultimately just going to be sprayed out onto the ground.


> My question is....whats the most economical place/volume/type to buy? What are you guys running it paying?
> 
> As I'm typing, I just thought of calling a buddy of mine who manages a fast food restaurant. He gets 5 gallon plastic jugs of the stuff, gotta find out how much one of those costs....


You'll have to look around. I keep it simple. I get whatever's on sale at the grocery. I get mine from Aldi usually. Your fast food connection might be a good one. Though I have never put used fryer oil in my saws, if I had a convenient source, I would try it. Just remember, _there are different types of fryer oil_. Some start out like shortening, turning to liquid as it heats up- bad. You want oils that start out as liquid oil, are disposed of as liquid and cool down and remain liquid. I can't stress this enough. Know what you're putting in your saw. I don't recommend food particles in your oil tank, I just see this as not being good in any way. You MUST strain and filter any used oils. Other than that, I hope it's free and convenient.


----------



## ddhlakebound

Tree Machine said:


> Though I have never put used fryer oil in my saws, if I had a convenient source, I would try it. Just remember, _there are different types of fryer oil_. Some start out like shortening, turning to liquid as it heats up- bad. You want oils that start out as liquid oil, are disposed of as liquid and cool down and remain liquid. I can't stress this enough. Know what you're putting in your saw. I don't recommend food particles in your oil tank, I just see this as not being good in any way. You MUST strain and filter any used oils. Other than that, I hope it's free and convenient.



I wasnt thinking of using the oil after it had been through the fryers, just using my buddy as a source to buy bulk new oil. Seems like the effort required to clean and filter used oil for bar lube would be a pain, and even then tiny particluate could clog the pump up. Not sure what variety his oil is, but it does start out as liquid. When a jug of it sits, tho, it does separate somewhat into a slightly thicker goo at the bottom. A good shake should take care of that.


----------



## okietreedude1

ddh,

when in was in high school, i worked at a pizza hut and we got 5 gal jugs of oil everynowandthen. They looked like what you might find at sams.


----------



## ddhlakebound

OK, just got off the phone with my fast food buddy. I've got a 5 gal jug of liquid corn oil coming in next week, cost is $13.50. 

This rocks, gonna be 40some% cheaper than the cheapest bar oil we can get, and non polluting.


----------



## stihlatit

Tree Machine said:


> 5 gal for 12.50? That's the most inexpensive I've heard of.
> 
> Peanut stands up well. Peanut oil takes high heat better than many other oils, which is why it's popularly used in deep fryers. However we try not to create high heat on a bar and chain. High friction and heat is what kills bars and wears driver links.
> 
> Peanut has gotten minimal attention here for only this one reason: It's more expensive than the others, not by much, but I encourage our fellow climbers to get whatever veggie oil is the cheapest.
> 
> All the vegetable based oils we use are so very close to each other in both molecular structure and lubricity that unless you get down to subfreezing temps, the differences, other than maybe a little difference in the shade of the oil's color and a little scent is so minimal. I LOOK for the differences, intentionally, so I can bring you good, clean info. Canola does seem to have advantages over the others, but still, it's splitting hairs.
> 
> Peanut oil would be my favored oil because I can get it in 5 gallon lugs from Lowe's in the fryer/barbecue section. BUT, it's more expensive than other choices and its only going a whirl around the bar a time or two and then sprayed out into the environment. I won't pay a penny more than I have to for a product when it's ultimately just going to be sprayed out onto the ground. You'll have to look around. I keep it simple. I get whatever's on sale at the grocery. I get mine from Aldi usually. Your fast food connection might be a good one. Though I have never put used fryer oil in my saws, if I had a convenient source, I would try it. Just remember, _there are different types of fryer oil_. Some start out like shortening, turning to liquid as it heats up- bad. You want oils that start out as liquid oil, are disposed of as liquid and cool down and remain liquid. I can't stress this enough. Know what you're putting in your saw. I don't recommend food particles in your oil tank, I just see this as not being good in any way. You MUST strain and filter any used oils. Other than that, I hope it's free and convenient.



If you use peanut oil should you also warn people with peanut allergies not to use that saw due to people with peanut allergies.....LOL.


----------



## SRT-Tech

ddhlakebound said:


> OK, just got off the phone with my fast food buddy. I've got a 5 gal jug of liquid corn oil coming in next week, cost is $13.50.
> 
> This rocks, gonna be 40some% cheaper than the cheapest bar oil we can get, and non polluting.



daaaammmmnnnnn thats cheap!!! 5 gallons up here, i was qouted $65 CDN......

I did just score 5 gallons of red bar oil for 15 bucks from a supply house locally though..... should last me about 3 - 4 weeks.


----------



## tam

Tree Machine said:


> Here are couple of pics, a few years old, It was between -5 and -10 degrees F, and this was what the oil looked like.




cool pics man! i never knew oil cud do that!


----------



## okietreedude1

Well, Im going to have to find me a restaraunt friend too. I was in wamalart this am and a 1 gall jug of off brand v oil was 4.88. their brand of bar oil is only 3.88/gal and thats currently what im using.


----------



## woodchux

Santa stopped by early this year.....
She said it was 12 or 13 bucks for a 35 lb jug.


----------



## B-Edwards

I loved how you guys stressed the importance of keeping the chain sharp. My climber argues with me all the time of how wood alone will dull your chain. He's right, but wood alone wont dull the chain 2 or 3 times a week. I too will be switching to veggie oil. Thanks for sharing information. Oh yeah the quote ( if ya cant keep your chain sharp and your bar maintained you suck) I love it.


----------



## Sprig

B-Edwards said:


> I loved how you guys stressed the importance of keeping the chain sharp. My climber argues with me all the time of how wood alone will dull your chain. He's right, but wood alone wont dull the chain 2 or 3 times a week. I too will be switching to veggie oil. Thanks for sharing information. Oh yeah the quote ( if ya cant keep your chain sharp and your bar maintained you suck) I love it.



Dis be what's it all about mate!!


i swear to the dogs that be i will be veggie usin' man!

Sharp is vry gud!

X=mad fud fer cats? GAH!! letem eat vaske....... an inhumanly impossible task. (should it lazt>>) If you are actually up to the task. HM, must go llick myself.............





 :rockn: :rockn:


----------



## Grizzly

*What if its cold????*

who in there right mind would use vegtibal oil for their chainsaw. I've seen poeple use new motor oil that was light weight but still oil. I personally wont put anything but Echo bar and chin oil in my saws.


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## 046

Sam's veggie oil 5gal went up to $14. been sitting in back of my truck last few nights. wanted to see how it sets up. so far it's staying liquid, but it's only gotten down to 40deg


----------



## okietreedude1

Grizzly said:


> who in there right mind would use...... (only) Echo bar and chin oil



At $6.?? per gallon? Im not that rich. I use whats cheapest, usually walmarts brand.


----------



## peacegame98

anyone running alternative fuels i work at a organic farm and we are looking into switching over as much as we can


----------



## sprdave

Do you mean in my car? I'd run my 83 Mercedes 300D on veggie oil if I could get a good source of the stuff used in California without getting in trouble. It's a big deal here to transport the stuff without a licence.

I don't actually cut wood for a living. I put gas in my saw from my dirtbike's can. He doesn't even miss it. Plain ole 50:1 or leaner gasremix.


----------



## sprdave

I just looked a little longer at this thread. I saw pictures of a saw with frozen vegetable oil in it. You guys are tough. I also think that using vegetable oil to lube your chain makes a bunch of sense. More than one of you said something about the Sthil bio chanin oil. I read Sthil's propaganda on that stuff. I wonder if it is vegetable oil. What else could it be?
Someone else said something about using natural oil for premix. I think the Maxima racing castor is nearly edible. Don't quote me on that. It provides bigtime bottom end protection and high viscocity. Don't use it in anything with oil injectors like an outboard motor. I think the reason everyone doesn't use it that's racing motorcycles offroad, is that it's so thick, that syntetics like redline and motorex racing 2t are a bit faster. 

http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/castor927.asp

If I'm getting too off subject, let me know and I'll strip some of this stuff out.


----------



## okietreedude1

Ive seen the 35 pound containers of oil. Anyone know specifically how many gallons are in one?

The jug packaging doesnt say.


----------



## ray benson

At discount stores like Costco or Sam’s Club, soybean oil costs about $13 for a 35-pound “cubie,” a squarish jug that holds about 4½ gallons.


----------



## ddhlakebound

okietreedude1 said:


> Ive seen the 35 pound containers of oil. Anyone know specifically how many gallons are in one?
> 
> The jug packaging doesnt say.



Metric to standard and weight to volume conversions suck......but here's what I came up with. 

Most veg oils weigh about 920 grams/liter = 3482 grams/gallon. There are 453.6 grams/pound, so each gallon of veg oil weighs 7.677 pounds. 

So a 35 pound jug of veg oil should hold 4.559 gallons of oil.


----------



## Tree Machine

Thank you for the conversion, ddh.


ddhlakebound said:


> So a 35 pound jug of veg oil should hold 4.559 gallons of oil.


And at 13 bucks a cubie, 13 div. by 4.559 = $2.85 a gallon.

Holy Canoli!


----------



## oldugly

I've been watching and reading more than posting lately, guess I just didn't have much to say. But I've read this whole thread, and you hit on an idea I was thinking about for quite awhile. I work around alot of lake shores, and even had to cut in the water itself, it always disheartened me to see the slick I leave behind. Also around here in the winter time we cut alot of trees on the ice...easiest way to drop them and haul them off the lakeshores...when the ice thaws...well we know where the oil goes.

You guys sold me. I'll break out the old veggie oil as soon as I use up my stock of Fleet Farm special. Great post, and thread.

As far as you old dogs that think you can't change or try something new, I am about as old style as they get...but If I can't learn something new...just bury me, I've outlived my usefulness to this world.


----------



## beowulf343

You know, I've been meaning to actually vote on this poll but the wording has me a bit confused. Both funky and skunky around here mean pretty much the same thing-mainly NOT GOOD. So which one do I choose if I like the veggie?


----------



## Gologit

I"ve read this whole thread and I'm going to try veg-oil or something comparable. If nothing else for the times when my kids rag on me about being "set in my ways and not willing to adopt modern technology"


----------



## Tree Machine

You guys inspire me. The switchover can only benefit you and your family. If there are disadvantages, look hard for them. I mean, be really _critical_ of it's performance. If there are bad points, we all should be aware of them. So far, SRT tech and his overpriced distributer has been the only negative so far in this thread, that and that the veggie oil may combust if you cut into logs that are on fire.


You old dogs really have me impressed with how you're looking closely at this and seeing the sense in changing over. Old habits and beliefs are hard to change, but you're doing it. Good on you.


----------



## Tree Machine

Boboak, you give your kids a big hug and tell em it's from the Tree Machine.


----------



## soutz

dropped in on this thread again, there is some hope for the planet.spread the word. veggie goooooood!!!


----------



## AKChopper

I'm all about helping out the enviroment surrounding us. Veggie oil is a great idea! I'm new but would'nt regular oil from a chain saw splattered on to a fresh cut cause a chance of injuring a trees health? I'm thinking about picking up an MS-250 soon, should I use veggie oil?BTW keep in mind that I'm in Alaska and winter temps get easily below -0F in winter!


----------



## Tree Machine

SRT, you seem to have a problem with veggie. Would you care to share your feelings on this?

If there's something legitimately wrong we all want to know what it is.


AK chopper live in a land whose coasts and waters, the birds and sea mammals were decimated for a long period by the toxic spill the same stuff we put in our bar tanks. Oil spills are definitely considered a bad thing, yet we do it on a personal and relatively invisible level day after day.

Some of us truly care about the environment, and I really embrace that, especially in Americans as we don't exactly have the best track record. As practitioners in the green industry, the fact is WE are the caretakers of trees, and the public perception of us is one of environmental sensitivity, as well it should be. Spraying petroleum oil onto the land is our dirty little secret.


----------



## 046

agggghhh prices are going up for veggie oil. 

$16 for 5ga at Sam's, was $13 not too long ago.


----------



## Tree Machine

16 for 5 gal? Just over three bucks a gallon, And that's a problem?

Bio-oil, someone said earlier, is about $18 PER gallon.

Regular petroleum chain lube, price PER GALLON, someone help me out, I don't buy it, so I don't really know but lets do the breakdown, I mean really crunch the heck out of the numbers and get to the real deal on this price thing, side-by-side. There is nothin to hide here.


----------



## SRT-Tech

Tree Machine said:


> SRT, you seem to have a problem with veggie. Would you care to share your feelings on this?
> 
> If there's something legitimately wrong we all want to know what it is.
> 
> 
> AK chopper live in a land whose coasts and waters, the birds and sea mammals were decimated for a long period by the toxic spill the same stuff we put in our bar tanks. Oil spills are definitely considered a bad thing, yet we do it on a personal and relatively invisible level day after day.
> 
> Some of us truly care about the environment, and I really embrace that, especially in Americans as we don't exactly have the best track record. As practitioners in the green industry, the fact is WE are the caretakers of trees, and the public perception of us is one of environmental sensitivity, as well it should be. Spraying petroleum oil onto the land is our dirty little secret.



 TM, i have no problem with veggie oil at all...I did try it in my ol Husky 61, heck i bought 5 gallon pails of it and went thru it pretty quick. We use Stihl bio-oil at work (although the smell of it makes me queasy). my only issues with it are the cost (at least up here in BC). I have spent between $45 CDN and 75 cdn for a 5 gallon pail, which is almost triple what i pay for a 5 gallon pail of reg bar oil (from industrial dealer). I cant always afford to run it, thats all. That was'nt even the reason i posted above...i just get the chuckles when the topic comes up, the religious fervor about veggie oil is somewhat amusing.

  

edit...when i find a cheaper source for veggi oil, you cna bet i will buy it...i'm not partial to the greasy stink form reg bar oil after a hard days cuttin'


----------



## AKChopper

Thank you Tree Machine for your reply. Any real tests out there on using veggie oil in sub 0 temperature? This is a fantastic website! Great job guys!


----------



## 046

$3gal is great but not good as $2.60gal 

reg bar oil runs from $5-$7gal here



Tree Machine said:


> 16 for 5 gal? Just over three bucks a gallon, And that's a problem?
> 
> Bio-oil, someone said earlier, is about $18 PER gallon.
> 
> Regular petroleum chain lube, price PER GALLON, someone help me out, I don't buy it, so I don't really know but lets do the breakdown, I mean really crunch the heck out of the numbers and get to the real deal on this price thing, side-by-side. There is nothin to hide here.


----------



## SRT-Tech

Tree Machine said:


> 16 for 5 gal? Just over three bucks a gallon, And that's a problem?
> 
> Bio-oil, someone said earlier, is about $18 PER gallon.
> 
> Regular petroleum chain lube, price PER GALLON, someone help me out, I don't buy it, so I don't really know but lets do the breakdown, I mean really crunch the heck out of the numbers and get to the real deal on this price thing, side-by-side. There is nothin to hide here.



55 gallon drum all season chain/bar oil, from a local industrial supplier $95 cdn


----------



## okietreedude1

Machine,

Last i bought bar oil was from walmart at $3.88/gall. (walmart brand). A store across the street has a couple of different brand that is 3.88-6/gal.

The store across the street also has 5gal veggie oil for about 25/5 gal. 

We have no sams here in my town.

veggie oil at walmart is close to $5/gal.


----------



## Tree Machine

That's honest info, Okie. Thank you.

How about some more prices, just so we have a better cross reference, maybe go with an average. Let's find and agree on an average price, realistic across the board. I have some photos to bring this price topic more to life. It's important, there's no denying.


Hey Alaska, your sub-freezing question is important, too. I'd like to answer that with pictures also, so give me a day or so on that.


More prices, guys. Veggie and bar.


----------



## AKChopper

Cool! Maybe when I eventually get my saw I can do a test as well, thanks TreeMachine!:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## Tree Machine

That's a personal choice. The word from veggie oil users is it works perfectly well. That knowledge is nothing new, so your results will be the same. We just don't recommend it if you let your saw sit for long periods, like a couple months between uses. Veggie is biodegradable. Residual oil on the bar is spread thin and exposed openly to oxygen, and will result in oxidation. Inside the sealed tank and in the oiler mechanism there is very limited amounts of oxygen as this is a closed system. Also the tocopherol added at processing (an antioxidant) stabilizes the oil and extends the shelf life. I have one saw I filled with canola in March 1, 2006, and then put it up on a shelf. I'll open it up, check it out and run it on the one year date. This is a test, just to know what would happen.

What are prices for grocery vegetable oil and commercial bar oil up in Alaska?


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## AKChopper

Yeah my chainsaw probably won't get much use, point taken. Trees up here are very small compared to the lower 48's (long winters ). My hand saw accomplishes most of my limb pruning. I like hands on manual pruning, even border shrubs if at all possible. 

I'll get back to you on veggie vs. oil pricing for Alaska. 

--- AK


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## sawsong

hi guys. this is my first post on the site but ive been reading with great interest. having recently been considering making the move from employed to self employed, all costs of course have to be considered in my business plan. before coming across this site i had wondered about using 'vegi' type oils in the oiler as a lot of people i know are starting to use it as a mixed fuel in their diesel cars and noticing incredibly quiet and smooth running.

upon reading this i decided to use it on my 019t and my dad's ms290 that he uses on the farm and often on the trees by watercourses. as it goes, we actually grow oilseed rape on the farm and i believe the oil we can readily get hold of here is rape oil rather than the canola you have stateside. I have a little investigation to do but im thinking currently it may well be the higher lubricating variant mentioned earlier in this thread. the other plus to the price being im a bit of an eco nut really where i can manage it 

thanks again guys. i can see im gonna enjoy it here and learn a lot. hopefully i shall soon be able to contribute something worth while back.

James

edit: here comes my something to contribute hehe. just spoke to my father and unfortunately the rape we grow will be LEAR because it is determined by the variety, same part of the plant, same process, different variety. HEARs are still grown in the uk but almost exclusively for their lubrication uses. 

heres the bit to look out for. now varieties have been bred to have low (glucosomol) content which are known as 'double lows' and for companies such as burger king etc to cook with, low fatty acid oils which aparently have a longer active cooking time or something like that. now, what this spells for use in chainsaws, im not entirely sure. but it does seem to point to the idea of supermarket shelf oil being more specifically tailored for cooking and losing yet more of its original rape oil lubricative properties. 

most of that is fact, but the last bit is merely my laymans speculation. hopefully it is of some interest


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## Tree Machine

OK, does everybody have it out of their system now? Can we be done with the Village People, and Donny and Barry and insulting one another?

Good Grief. There's an 'Off the topic' forum where you can say anything you want. For here, _if it's not too much to ask_, could we talk about vegetable oil as it relates to lubricating a bar and chain in a chain saw system?


PLEASE?


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

In a recent cold snap, my vegi oil was frozen solid, the bar oil was still liquid.


----------



## 046

same here... during last ice storm my std bar oil was thick as molasses, but still flowing.


----------



## Tree Machine

True, Mike and 046. Good time to discuss this. At these bitter, low temperatures, a lot of companies just stay home. Not us, though.

Here are some things to consider.

Vegetable (*soybean*) oil and *corn* oil will reach their 'freezing point' and turn into a gelacious slurry. This temp is somewhere around 18 to 24 degrees F (~ -8 to -4 C) for these two oils. Further temperature drop and the pourable slurry goes from pourable to 'squeezable' (see the picture below taken at 15 degrees F (-9.4 C)).

Canola, on the other hand, has a much lower freezing point, and a wider range between where the the oil goes from liquid oil to an easily pourable semi-liquid and then to a 'squeezable' white semi-solid. I've found this low-end 'cutoff' temperature of Canola, where you actually would choose to put it in the cab of your truck, or bring it in overnight, to be in the range of zero to around 5 below zero Fahrenheit (-18 to -20 C).

Be aware of this, though. Only a few degrees increase (like warming your saw up) and the veggie liquifies. One of the benefits I see is that veggie oil has a *very consistent viscosity* throughout the entire temperature range of where we'd use it, right down to the very low temperature point where the slurry goes from pourable to extrudable.

Regular bar oil, on the other hand, the viscosity changes greatly as the temperature drops. It gets thicker and slower to pour. This is ONE reason we have to cut it with diesel in the Winter, or use a Winter formula bar oil (already cut with a petroleum-based thinning agent). For the guys who run regular-weight bar oil in the very depth of Winter, there is a big reason you 'cut' your oil with a thinner. Aside from the annoyance of having to wait for the slow, thick bar oil to flow from the jug and into the bar tank, you should consider the thickness of the oil already present in the oiler system. It flows with difficulty until the temperature comes up. Our impulse is to fire up a cold saw, gun it a few times and begin cutting. When gunning a cold saw, your clutch drum is driving a plastic pinion gear, which meshes with a plastic oil pump gear. If the petroleum bar oil is cold and really thick the stickiness of the tack combined with the thickness of the cold bar oil give resistance to the pump parts, rather than lubricity as what you would think. The clutch-driven pinion gear is going to move without any resistance whatsoever because there's a motor and a clutch drum driving it. The oiler pump gear, however, if it offers much in the way of resistance, one or the other or both of those gears can strip. Then you have no oil being pumped, no lubrication to the bar and your saw is down within a few minutes with hopefully no damage to the bar. I can't think of a worse time for a saw to go down.

Veggie (esp. Canola) with its consistent thinness down to very low temps, and no need to modify it, is what I consider to be a major advantage.

In an upcoming post I'll gladly share a few simple ways to adapt to the characteristics of veggie at temperatures below 10 degrees F (-12 C).


----------



## okietreedude1

Tree Machine said:


> OK, does everybody have it out of their system now? Can we be done with the Village People, and Donny and Barry and insulting one another?
> 
> Good Grief. There's an 'Off the topic' forum where you can say anything you want. For here, _if it's not too much to ask_, could we talk about vegetable oil as it relates to lubricating a bar and chain in a chain saw system?
> 
> 
> PLEASE?


----------



## bama

I have to admit that I haven't yet switched to veggie oil, but I plan on it. I will pay more to be more environmentally friendly if I can afford it.

I look forward to the smell compared to regular oil! Once I can get back into the woods I will give it a go.

Thanks for the posts on the subject.


----------



## sawsong

one of the older guys on our team when i mentioned this commented that 30 years ago or so at college they were always told to use veggie oil and always did because it was cheap and good for the environment... bar oil is just horrid stuff!

was this a widely held belief back then? if so, what went wrong between then and now?


----------



## GASoline71

Tree Machine said:


> OK, does everybody have it out of their system now? Can we be done with the Village People, and Donny and Barry and insulting one another?
> 
> Good Grief. There's an 'Off the topic' forum where you can say anything you want. For here, _if it's not too much to ask_, could we talk about vegetable oil as it relates to lubricating a bar and chain in a chain saw system?
> 
> 
> PLEASE?



No problem... just defending myself. Apologize for screwin' the thread up.

Gary


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## AKChopper

I just went to my local Stihl dealer and I spoke of the veggie oil concept to the sales guy. He says that the veggie oil will gum up the inside of the reservoir tank and clog up the flow tube. This does make since to me if the saw is not in use on a regular basis. What do you think?
I also questioned him about Stihls "biodegradable" bar oil (he had non on hand) and what he thought of it. He switched the subject on to the "winter" (blue bottle) grade. I don't know why he switched the subject on me. Perhaps he does not know much about this concept. 
I forgot to get the bar oil pricing TM. Sorry! I'll get it next time I'm there.

---AK


----------



## beowulf343

Tree Machine said:


> True, Mike and 046. Good time to discuss this. At these bitter, low temperatures, a lot of companies just stay home. Not us, though.
> 
> Here are some things to consider.
> 
> Vegetable (*soybean*) oil and *corn* oil will reach their 'freezing point' and turn into a gelacious slurry. This temp is somewhere around 18 to 24 degrees F (~ -8 to -4 C) for these two oils. Further temperature drop and the pourable slurry goes from pourable to 'squeezable' (see the picture below taken at 15 degrees F (-9.4 C)).
> 
> Canola, on the other hand, has a much lower freezing point, and a wider range between where the the oil goes from liquid oil to an easily pourable semi-liquid and then to a 'squeezable' white semi-solid. I've found this low-end 'cutoff' temperature of Canola, where you actually would choose to put it in the cab of your truck, or bring it in overnight, to be in the range of zero to around 5 below zero Fahrenheit (-18 to -20 C).
> 
> Be aware of this, though. Only a few degrees increase (like warming your saw up) and the veggie liquifies. One of the benefits I see is that veggie oil has a *very consistent viscosity* throughout the entire temperature range of where we'd use it, right down to the very low temperature point where the slurry goes from pourable to extrudable.



TM-didn't you and i go over this earlier in this thread?

Treemachine is right, canola is the stuff to use in cold weather. We just finished a streak of twenty-some days in a row where the temps didn't even reach 10 F and many of those days saw temps well below zero. Ran canola in all my saws even throughout this cold spell with absolutely no problems. (Granted, nothing like the cold AKchopper will experience but i was happy with the results.) But like i said, the effects of the cold are discussed several pages back in this thread. Canola freezes at lower temps than veggie and even then usually just turn into a gell that liquifies very fast when even a small amount of warmth is applied to it. (Sorry to repeat you TM.)

Prices around here:
Husky brand bar oil-$9.25/gal
Walmart Poulan bar oil-$4.88/gal
Walmart canola-$6.64/gal
Walmart corn-$4.96/gal
Aldi's canola-$4.76/gal
Aldi's veggie-$4.24/gal
Been running Aldi's canola just because of the cold snap but once it warms up will switch to Aldi's veggie. But both are cheaper that Walmart's cheapest bar oil. (Granted, not alot cheaper but every penny counts.):biggrinbounce2:


----------



## okietreedude1

Im fixing to officially make the switch. 

I was in Wichita KS last week and got me a sams membership.

Bought 2 35# jugs of veggie. Paid $16.3? each.

If these jugs truly are 5gals, that would make it $3.30/gal.

Now its going to take a while to pay off the membership cost but maybe in time it will.


----------



## Austin1

beowulf343 said:


> TM-didn't you and i go over this earlier in this thread?
> 
> Treemachine is right, canola is the stuff to use in cold weather. We just finished a streak of twenty-some days in a row where the temps didn't even reach 10 F and many of those days saw temps well below zero. Ran canola in all my saws even throughout this cold spell with absolutely no problems. (Granted, nothing like the cold AKchopper will experience but i was happy with the results.) But like i said, the effects of the cold are discussed several pages back in this thread. Canola freezes at lower temps than veggie and even then usually just turn into a gell that liquifies very fast when even a small amount of warmth is applied to it. (Sorry to repeat you TM.)
> 
> Prices around here:
> Husky brand bar oil-$9.25/gal
> Walmart Poulan bar oil-$4.88/gal
> Walmart canola-$6.64/gal
> Walmart corn-$4.96/gal
> Aldi's canola-$4.76/gal
> Aldi's veggie-$4.24/gal
> Been running Aldi's canola just because of the cold snap but once it warms up will switch to Aldi's veggie. But both are cheaper that Walmart's cheapest bar oil. (Granted, not alot cheaper but every penny counts.):biggrinbounce2:



I don't use my saw's as much as you guy's But I made the switch to canola this year for all my firewood cutting about 5 full cords. No problems at all with it and it is way cheaper! I paid 14.00$ Canadian for 16 liters 3.78l to a U.S gal. It flows better at low temps than any bar oil I have used. I did'nt notice any more ware on the bar and chain plus it cleans out of you cloths better! By the way Walmart wants 8.99 for there bar oil here for a gallon.


----------



## Tree Machine

That says it all, Austin.

Isn't it interesting? Cheaper, pours better in the cold, excellent lubricicity, doesn't stink, isn't sticky, washes out of your cloths better, biodegradable, renewable, non-toxic. That's acceptable reason for change.



sawsong said:


> one of the older guys on our team when i mentioned this commented that 30 years ago or so at college they were always told to use veggie oil and always did because it was cheap and good for the environment... bar oil is just horrid stuff!
> 
> was this a widely held belief back then? if so, what went wrong between then and now?



Could it be that big oil has their influences with ANYONE who is a customer of theirs? A move to veggie 30 years ago would mean diminished revenues for big oil into the future. Where would they market their low-grade, bottom-of-the-barrel crap? Lobbying and influence get decisions made and if we 'extreme end users' don't question the practice, big oil gets bigger and we each spray 50 or a hundred gallons of petroleum oil into the environment in a year. The giant petro corporations laugh all the way to the bank. What do they care?

OK, maybe I'm speculating a wee bit.

In Sweden, I do believe regular petro bar oil is illegal to use except where specifically designated. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure. We may have to ask one of our Swedish brothers.


If vegetable oil is recommended and used within the country that the saws are designed and built, but not in this country, why not the U.S.? If we once were but now aren't,... why?

Hmmmm. Draw your own conclusions on that one.


Mange, Eriksberg, you out there? 
Skralle? SWE#Kipp, Maccall. We want confirmation on this
How bout one of you Swedes commenting on this 'rumor'. Are there other countries that ban regular bar oil for use in chainsaws?


----------



## lees trees

*ok ok*

OK I'll change over. great thread good research. how about some help on the 2 stroke side... thanks


----------



## Tree Machine

Not on this thread, 2-cycle stuff should be taken up with the experts in the chainsaw forum. Tons of expertise there, like nowhere else.

This thread is specifically *chainsaw bar and chain lubrication* and issues surrounding the use of vegetable oil in the tools of Arboriculture.


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## Tree Machine

Hey Swedish brothers..... I'm seeking your expert input here.........


----------



## Mange

Tree Machine said:


> That says it all, Austin.
> 
> Isn't it interesting? Cheaper, pours better in the cold, excellent lubricity, doesn't stink, isn't sticky, washes out of your cloths better, biodegradable, renewable, non-toxic. That's acceptable reason for change.
> 
> 
> 
> Could it be that big oil has their influences with ANYONE who is a customer of theirs? A move to veggie 30 years ago would mean diminished revenues for big oil into the future. Where would they market their low-grade, bottom-of-the-barrel crap? Lobbying and influence get decisions made and if we 'extreme end users' don't question the practice, big oil gets bigger and we each spray 50 or a hundred gallons of petroleum oil into the environment in a year. The giant petro corporations laugh all the way to the bank. What do they care?
> 
> OK, maybe I'm speculating a wee bit.
> 
> In Sweden, I do believe regular petrol bar oil is illegal to use except where specifically designated. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure. We may have to ask one of our Swedish brothers.
> 
> 
> If vegetable oil is recommended and used within the country that the saws are designed and built, but not in this country, why not the U.S.? If we once were but now aren't,... why?
> 
> Hmmmm. Draw your own conclusions on that one.
> 
> 
> Mange, Eriksberg, you out there?
> Skralle? SWE#Kipp, Maccall. We want confirmation on this
> How bout one of you Swedes commenting on this 'rumor'. Are there other countries that ban regular bar oil for use in chainsaws?




I can try...

There is a demand from some of the forrest company's that there will be no use of dino oil in their proses, In any form. Not in harvesters, forwarders or chainsaws. These have a demand on the fuel to. Alcylate fuel only, no home brewed at all.
There is some forrests that are protected by government law and these all have this too regardless of landowners thoughts or wishes.

The veg. oil's sold here is actually not bad, but it is pricey and if not used correct will destroy the saw.
It is a good lube, but not good enough IMO. The bar/chain run hotter and if it sit's for a couple of day's with get stiff and I mean in a way that will course damage!
Chain's not used for a while is not possible to bend in the rivet's.
The wurst thing with this is that it needs a special method of cleaning as it is worse to get of than sap from the trees.

IMO this is no good thing for others than proffessionals that use their saws daily without exeption and have very good service for the saws.


----------



## Tree Machine

Here's the big question. 

In oil you voice problems with, does that have a tack additive? Does it have ANY additive beyond natural, food-grade oil. Why is it expensive?

I ask because I do not experience the problems you mention. Expense, hot-running chain or stiff rivets. 

This is really important, Mange. Thank you for helping.


----------



## sawsong

as an addition to my earlier post regarding the engineering of oil crop varieties, it may be of general interest to some that soon to grace the shelves will be a food oil version of linseed oil, which was up until now was more than unfit for human consumption.

im gonna try and seek out a price for bulk drums of rape oil here in the uk, the H not the L

who knows, we can but hope that there will soon be a rape variety grown specifically and even better suited for lubricating chain bars and other metal to metal components


----------



## Tree Machine

I report near-perfection in lubricity. Other users report a HOST of other overall benefits.

How much better do we need it? Not being sarcastic, but in a practical sense?

I think if the enviro oil guys would take the tack out of the canola oil, they'd have a good product that didn't STICK all over everything it touches. It would be called 'Canola Oil'. 

I am going way out on a limb here. Tree Machine is not an expert, he's just one of you guys, uses saws a lot, cuts more firewood than most people on earth.

This is a real stretch, totally hypothetical, just...a thought in concept only.
If a tack additive makes the oil sticky, then more of the oil will stick to surfaces _other than a chainsaw chain_, namely the rest of the chainsaw. So the chainsaw 'holds' more oil (i.e., it sticks to more things.) If the newly deposited _sticky oil_ hangs out on open-air surfaces, if it is *bar*, it builds up till it falls of or is cleaned off. The chain and bar, they are in contact with the lubricant *for only a split second* or two or three or whatever, but ALL THE REST OF THE TIME beyond that, you get to deal with the sticky oil. Bar oil is horrible this way. Whatever it touches, it tends to cover the surface, bar oil is hard to clean, smelly often involves other harsh petroleum solvents.

That is tack in regular bar oil.

Tack in vegetable oil (namely Canola), ie. Bio-Oil _also_ is in contact with the bar and chain for only mere moments, and with the stickiness, tends to stay stuck on after-surfaces for longer. Would this be safe to assume? Veggie oil is going to bio-degrade, that is one of it's shining benefits. But if it stays stuck to the surfaces, and then oxidizes, THEN what do you have? Degraded lipid residue and tack. And Mange says it takes special care to clean these saws? I would imagine.

In a chainsaw system, regardless of whether the lubricant is dino or veggie, saw users in general, but especially Arborists, we want the lubricant to do it's job, and then go away. We don't need it any more. We cast it to the environment as casually as peeing in the woods. However, some oil stays on the saw, and it builds up over time. My big theory here is, the more sticky the oil, the more the oil will want to stay stuck on the saw. But we just want it to go away. We don't want it gumming up our saw parts. We want it gone.

Does it seem like tack is really doing us any benefit here? If MORE bio oil is left to build up, the oxidized oil by-products, held captive by the tack, remain on air-exposed surfaces and don't leave willingly. This is complicating things for us.

With grocery shelf veggie, it lubricates very well, sticks very little thereafter and 'goes away', out into the environment which is our only real choice in the matter. Less that 'sticks' means more that falls off.

My saws are easier to clean than when I used dino bar. Cleaner on my hands, cleaner on the work surfaces, or on my clients' lawn which is where a lot of oil crud goes. The saws still NEED to be cleaned as part of normal, ongoing maintenance, but doing it is less of a toxic chore so I'm likely to do it more often, just a guess? Cleaning for me is scraping out the sidecase/clutch area with a screwdriver once or twice a week and cleaning the bar groove at least weekly. Brass brush ever month or so. Comressed air, every other month, deep clean once a year. It's easy. Any accumulated oil/sawdust just falls off. It doesn't 'stick'. Go figure  


This brings us to a big quetion....? 


Is Tack the root of all evil?


----------



## sawsong

very good point

and for the argument of the vegi oil not being great if the saw is being left for a long time, surely brushing a bit onto the chain before putting it into storage would be more than sufficient? from what i gather, canola oil adheres and 'takes' well to metal anyway,

and in response to your question re: tack, yes, i do indeed think its the root of all evil, since the oil will be ejected continually anyway, at such a rate that any oil would stay on the chain and bar 'long enough' without a doubt. the tack in my opinion is fairly redundant and just makes the oil more of a nuisance!

and in conclusion, it seems odd people saying their bars run hotter with vegy oil. although no science is involved, my perception is that my bar runs cooler due to the slight increase of oil that actually is applied to the bar by the oiler


----------



## Tree Machine

sawsong said:


> and in conclusion, it seems odd people saying their bars run hotter with vegy oil. although no science is involved, my perception is that my bar runs cooler due to the slight increase of oil that actually is applied to the bar by the oiler


I'm not sure there's more oil going on, just that what's going on is doing a better job.
On my Husky power ported 346XP I am running an 8-pin 3/8 sprocket and pushing a mini chain around a 14" carving bar. The carving bar has no sprocket. I don't run it loose, like the carving guys.

This is super speed for a chain on bar, as fast as anything outside of the chainsaw racing world.

The tip shows zero discoloration, as well as zero discoloration on any other part of the bar. The bar is a year old and I have yet to dress it. It has worn beautifully. That's all I can say.

On the 2-footer and 3-footer on the 395's, pretty much the same thing- roller tips are fine and the rails are fine with no discoloration. I attribute this more to not running dull chain.


----------



## Austin1

Tree Machine said:


> I'm not sure there's more oil going on, just that what's going on is doing a better job.
> On my Husky power ported 346XP I am running an 8-pin 3/8 sprocket and pushing a mini chain around a 14" carving bar. The carving bar has no sprocket. I don't run it loose, like the carving guys.
> 
> This is super speed for a chain on bar, as fast as anything outside of the chainsaw racing world.
> 
> The tip shows zero discoloration, as well as zero discoloration on any other part of the bar. The bar is a year old and I have yet to dress it. It has worn beautifully. That's all I can say.
> 
> On the 2-footer and 3-footer on the 395's, pretty much the same thing- roller tips are fine and the rails are fine with no discoloration. I attribute this more to not running dull chain.


That is what I found using canola oil Very clean! I said this before I only cut wood to heat my home and work shop, but I really like using this oil; since it is grown in my ''back yard'' Canada is one of the biggest producers of it. It is cheap and does not gum up like so ya based oils. Still after the fire wood season for me that is spring I do wash out my saws with Naphtha at least the oil tank but I always did that! It is really good to here from you guy's that use your saw's everyday! I am so jealous! I always say a sharp chain makes a big difference I never have to force any of my saws through the wood.


----------



## beowulf343

Tree Machine said:


> . I have one saw I filled with canola in March 1, 2006, and then put it up on a shelf. I'll open it up, check it out and run it on the one year date. This is a test, just to know what would happen.



Hey, Tree Machine. What were the results of this test? Sorry to dig up this thread, but I remember you saying this but haven't seen any published results. Thanks


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

Mange said:


> The veg. oil's sold here is actually not bad, but it is pricey and if not used correct will destroy the saw.
> It is a good lube, but not good enough IMO. The bar/chain run hotter and if it sit's for a couple of day's with get stiff and I mean in a way that will course damage!
> Chain's not used for a while is not possible to bend in the rivet's.
> The wurst thing with this is that it needs a special method of cleaning as it is worse to get of than sap from the trees.
> 
> IMO this is no good thing for others than proffessionals that use their saws daily without exeption and have very good service for the saws.




I was planning to try veggie oil many months back, but haven't done much cutting this winter due to an injury. (Haven't done much of anything outdoors!)

A week or so ago I looked into it again. Thought I'd give it a try as I had some cutting to do. I was going to use some canola - straight supermarket, food grade canola. I have a jug that I've been using for other non-food things. It's been sitting since last fall. When I took the top off, I found a ring of crystallized oil around the opening, very sticky, gummy, nasty, whatever bad word you want to use.

Hmmmm. Like the man said, maybe if you run it every day, but I don't think I'm going to be using it in _my_ saws.

I really like the idea of using veggie oil, for all the environmental reasons, but I'm not going to wreck my equipment to do it! A little extra cleaning would be okay. I'd pay that 'price' to use veggie oil. I can even live with a little faster wear of the bar & chain. But based on what I saw, I think there's going to be MAJOR flushing and cleaning of the whole oiler system every time I want to put my saw away. That's just not workable for me.

Unless someone can show me a way to use it without it gumming up my saw, I'll just have to wait for a better alternative.


----------



## Marc1

From the various 'disadvantages' quoted for Canola oil, one, the tendency to get rancid is something that can be overcome.
All vegetable oil oxidize, some faster than others and they all contain some preservative to reduce this tendency to an acceptable level. However since they are for eating and not for sawchain lubrication, the amount of antioxidants in them is limited since many are rather detrimental to our health.
One preservative that is synthetic, non toxic and readily available in any chemical supplier is Thiodipropionic acid. A bit of experimentation or inquiring with the supplier will give the appropriate doses of additional preservative that will make the oil stable for a long time.


----------



## Tree Machine

Thank you, Mange and Blue Ridge and Marc and Beowulf. Input and perspective on all this is valuable to the body of information we've got going. It's important, also, to sort out impression from fact.

Let's start in order of the last few posters. Mange, our friend from Sweden says their veggie is expensive. he says


> The veg. oil's sold here is actually not bad, but it is pricey and if not used correct will destroy the saw.
> It is a good lube, but not good enough IMO. The bar/chain run hotter and if it sit's for a couple of day's with get stiff and I mean in a way that will course damage!
> Chain's not used for a while is not possible to bend in the rivet's.
> The wurst thing with this is that it needs a special method of cleaning as it is worse to get of than sap from the trees.


Since it is expensive, I am assuming they're talking about commercial bio oil from the saw shops. Mange, please correct me on this as I try very hard not to assume things while trying to seperate impression from fact. 

No one in the last 2-1/2 years of these ongoing veggie threads has claimed that if the oil is used wrong it will destroy the saw. My question would be, how do you use the oil wrong? and what is meant by destroy?

The stiff chain issue, there is truth to that because, of course, the chain is 100% exposed to air and oxygen, and gets hot, accelerating any chemical reaction. I swap bars and chains regularly on the big saws, from 2-foot to three-foot and back and forth as needed. While the 'off' bar and chain are not in use they just sit there, exposed to oxygen. The chain gets stiff. I clean inside the bar rail, the oil hole areas, a quick brass brush to both sides of the bar where it interfaces with the saw and put the chain back on. Before I tighten the nuts, I fire up the saw, rev it a few times to get the chain spinning at high speed then shut her down. TUG the stiff chain by hand, tighten as necessary and then tighten the bolts down. 

I have always found the chain to no longer be stiff.

Right now I'm on vacation, though I usually do 2 or three tree jobs here in Florida when I come down. My folks live here, my dad is in the lawn care business and I have a couple saddles, ropes, spurs and kit, as well as my saw, a husky 350 and his assortment of smaller saws (everything from Remington to Poulan, Echo and a Stihl power pruner). Wisely, I have bought him as couple Silky saws and replacement blades and recently a corona pole pruner bull lopper and three new poles. I know a few of you are asking why I would do tree work while on vacation, but if you're a full-time treeguy you already understand.

The point to this seemingly off-topic is very on-topic. My wife and I travel regularly, and usually for several weeks at a time. When I come down to Florida, my 350 has been sitting since the last time I came down, usually 3-6 months. When I go back home, my saws have been sitting idle for several weeks. I have been using straight, off the shelf veggie oil for better than three years now and this travel cycle has been consistent, though a Hawaii trip was six weeks and a New Zealand trip was 2 months.

The point is, even though my saws get regular, professional use, they also sit idle and unused for lengthy periods. I have never, ever flushed an oil tank or used 'special' cleaners on bar, chains or saw. True, I note a stiff chain after a period of non-use but I can't say it has ever been a problem, just a characteristic.

My family is calling me for breakfast. I'll try to get back and address Blue Ridge and Marc and Beowulf. For now, I'll leave you with a couple pics of how NOT to prune palm trees.


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## Marc1

Another thought on 'stiff' chains.
As it was mentioned before, vegetable oil oxidizes or rather polymerizes faster under pressure and temperature, something that occurs when oil is used as lubricant.
If a chain is hot from cutting, and put away hot, the oil on said chain will polymerize fast. If the same saw is let to cool down and then fired up and revved a bit with lots of oil to flush the cooked oil with fresh one, I m sure the time that new oil takes to get stiff will be much longer.


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## BlueRidgeMark

Tree Machine said:


> I'll try to get back and address Blue Ridge and Marc and Beowulf.




I'm very willing to be convinced! Keep talking!


----------



## Austin1

Marc1 said:


> From the various 'disadvantages' quoted for Canola oil, one, the tendency to get rancid is something that can be overcome.
> All vegetable oil oxidize, some faster than others and they all contain some preservative to reduce this tendency to an acceptable level. However since they are for eating and not for sawchain lubrication, the amount of antioxidants in them is limited since many are rather detrimental to our health.
> One preservative that is synthetic, non toxic and readily available in any chemical supplier is Thiodipropionic acid. A bit of experimentation or inquiring with the supplier will give the appropriate doses of additional preservative that will make the oil stable for a long time.


I have been trying to get out almost once a month to cut fire wood! but with work and weather conditions it is tuff. But so far the stuff in my oil tank has held up well. At the most it has been sitting for 40 day's. As far as the chain goes Canola attracts far less dust than reg sticky smelly bar oil doe's. But I would'nt use anything but pure canola!
As I did some test's by putting a little on some 2x 1/4 cold rolled flatbar in the garage the so ya stuff got sticky in about three day's the canola stayed liquid and not sticky for more than five day's. And olive oil would'nt even poor out at -10c so I elimanted that one.


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## Tree Machine

*research surrounding veggie*



BlueRidgeMark said:


> I'm very willing to be convinced! Keep talking!


I appreciate your willingness to consider and be open to new possibilities. However, I'm not here to 'convince' anyone. Initially, I was just sharing my personal experience, as I still do, but now it's more a matter of seperating fact from fallacy.

What I mean by this is, we have a growing body of information going on here, whether we realize it or not. Research (in a nutshell) is the gathering of valid data and analyzing it to come up with conclusions. Research is not trying to prove something right, but rather, trying to prove it wrong. The scientific method starts with a hypothesis and devises experiments to test the hypothesis.

A hypothesis is an educated guess about something, in our case, the guess that *"Food-grade, non-tackified vegetable oil can be used successfully as a bar and chain lubricant in a chainsaw system."* Our 'experiment' is based on personal feedback from those using straight, off-the-shelf, NON-TACKIFIED grocery-grade vegetable oil in their chainsaws. We are all experimental subjects, in effect, Guinea pigs, since this area of research has very little published data. What is currently out there amounts to a small scattering of published articles. Research, good research, will have large numbers of subjects, all doing the same thing within the same experiment, and eventually comparing the data and drawing conclusions from it. The internet has allowed us to assemble in good numbers and for us to all volunteer willingly to be part of this.

A 'blind' study would be me handing you either the experimental compound (veggie oil), or the 'control' (regular bar oil) and I would know which is which, but you would not. A double-blind study would be me handing you random samples of either the test product, or control, and neither I nor you would know which is which. Double blind removes any personal bias on the part of the researcher who might want the results to show one direction or the other.

Our 'experiment' can not be anything like a clinical trial. It can't be blind or double blind but that does not mean we can't compile solid data and eventual results. Our information pool expands into areas like pricing and environmental temperature, different saw manufacturers, different saw sizes, bar lengths, chain types, usage frequency, usage style, different oils in the veggie family (canola, corn, soy, etc), you get what I mean by this. Our data is hardly quantifiable (measurable) which is fundamental to objective research. Our research is more subjective (non-measurable) and our 'data' is purely empirical (gotten based on direct use). If the research is good, the 'experiments' can be replicated and the results will remain consistent, anywhere in the world. The key is for all the subjects to be doing basically the same thing.

This wasn't planned from the beginning, it's sort of fallen into place. As said before, I am not here to 'convince' anyone. I've assumed the role of keeping the information valid.

For instance, Blue Ridge Mark, earlier, contributed that he saw a sticky, gummy ring around the cap area of a veggie oil bottle that had been sitting around since last Fall and made a conclusion that he was not going to risk his saws based on that. That contribution is appreciated and though it may move others in an emotional way, the observation had absolutely nothing to do with a chainsaw, a chain, a bar or lubrication in a chainsaw system whatsoever. This is an observation outside of our 'experiment' and has no place in the data or eventual results. Mange brought in commentary about bio-oil in harvesters and forwarders, as well as chainsaws and how if used improperly could destroy the equipment. There was no confirmation whether this oil was tackified bio oil from the saw shop or grocery veggie. We are working SPECIFICALLY with food-grade vegetable oil in chainsaw systems, so the commentary, although valuable and appreciated does not fit into our data pool.

This is what I mean. Research is designed to produce unbiassed results from legitimate data. This is why we don't put research trials on the health aspects of cigarette smoking in the hands of cigarette companies- the data and results would undoubtedly be biassed and shown to prove what they want the research to show. This is not research. That would be manipulation of information to achieve some sort of advantage.

I hope you all can see that I have no vested interest in this. No one is paying me a single coin to produce data to show something one way or the other. There is no benefit in this for me, nor will there be. True, I care about the environment and your health, but if I thought veggie oil was going to trash your saws, I would not be here volunteering countless hours to guide this along. I consider my place to be unbiassed; I want to know if using veggie is good, but I certainly want to know if it is bad. 

The challenge here for all of us is overcoming the emotion surrounding it all. Moving to veggie represents change. Change scares the crap out of many people, even if it is for the better. Sometimes agreeing that the 'new thing' is right means, subconciously, you have to admit that the old thing was wrong, and nobody likes to be wrong. Resistance to change is part of our makeup as humans so embrace it, but at the same time, understand it.

Just consider, this is not about right or wrong, old vs. new, or his way vs. my way. Keep in perspective, this is about can "Food-grade, non-tackified vegetable oil be used successfully as a bar and chain lubricant in a chainsaw system." ? Through the testing of this question we hope to come up with all the peripheral details of what are the nitty gritty details associated with the use, what are the advantages, disadvantages and what can can be done to overcome any disadvantages. 

Sorry so long-winded. It's not required that we all agree, but it is important that we are on the same sheet of paper if we're looking to answer the same questions.


----------



## madmax

I just stumbled onto this, just curious how many are still buying into the "veggie oil" crap now that tortillas are hovering around $2.00 for a twelve pack.


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## asthesun

is that an attempt at saving the environment while cutting down trees with your noxious fuming chainsaws?


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## Tree Machine

No, just questioning the 'truth' that bar oil _has_ to be petroleum-based.


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## silk

I have been running veggie oil on my personal 026 now for over a year with no difference. 

When working with Hydro contracts they are very very strict about riparian zones and we must use 100% veggie oil when working around the water.

I started using because I love the fact that I can get it anywhere anytime when on the road.


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## Tree Machine

Thanks, Silk.


The point of this thread is NOT to create sides, petro vs veggie. Rather, if there is solid, verifiable, useful information that straight, non-tackified, grocery grade vegetable oil *can* be used instead of conventional bar oil, then _that_ is the point of the thread.

For those who dismiss the veggie oil idea, still think it not possible or can just not accept it for whatever reason, that's OK. Those reasons are uniquely personal and ours is not to force or or impose change upon anyone.

The information is out in the open, and you can give corn, soy or canola oil a try in your saw without fear of harm to it. You will know within a tank or two that everything operates the same. The added, tangible benefits may surprise you.


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## newsawtooth

*Vegetable Oil*

I know it must have been said previously, but it I like how much cleaner it is. My chaps and clothing are no longer covered tacky bar oil. 

With normal daily use in urban and rural forestry including high impact uses such as chainsaw debarkers and Alaska-mills, I have seen no unusual wear to sprockets, bearings, motors, or bars in the 2 years I've been using Canola oil. The cost difference has remained nominal and in most cases Canola oil is slightly cheaper and easier to find.


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## Greenstar

Tree Machine said:


> I get about a year, year and a half out of a bar.



Tree Machine, I hve been in business for 15 years and barely ever have HAD to replace a bar. I don't know... I have heard conflicting reports.. Some guys seem to replace their bars often, where others rarely, usually only when they are accidentally bent, or else an oiler problem..

ANyhow, I never have to really replace my bars.. Why do u have to replace your bars so often..?

I guess this is an old thread, but maybe someone can respond.. Thanks

ps. maybe this says a little something about running vegetable oil??

greenstar~


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## asthesun

if you keep the bar clean there shouldnt be any oiling problem as a result of the something with the bar. i use an air compressor to blow out my saws every other day or so. i bend a bar every 6 mos or so, usually when it gets pinched by wood or stuck in wood thats on its way to the ground. i have pretty good luck with getting smaller bars back into shape, seems like larger bars are never the same. i've noticed alot of the guys on my crew do something really annoying, drives me crazy. when making a stump cut, they'll pull up at an angle instead of back on a plane with the saw/cut. they'll also lean on the saw in the cut when they reposition themselves. i even watched a guy try to pop the stump off with the saw in the cut!


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## SINGLE-JACK

*Vegetable Oil - USDA Forest Service Report*

"Every year thousands of gallons of chain-and-bar oil are carried into the forests and none returns." (quote from link below)

I searched the threads for any mention of the following link:

http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/98511316/98511316.html

I didn't get a hit, so, I thought it worth posting.

I manage woodlots around wells and like the idea of NOT spraying petroleum based bar oil all over the woods and myself. I think I'll try it - today. I stole a bottle of canola from my wife's cabinet.

Some tests mentioned in other links imply the bar might even last longer. Even if they don't, it'll be nice to brag about being environmentally cool ... green ... whatever.


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## asthesun

SINGLE-JACK said:


> "Every year thousands of gallons of chain-and-bar oil are carried into the forests and none returns." (quote from link below)
> 
> I searched the threads for any mention of the following link:
> 
> http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/98511316/98511316.html
> 
> I didn't get a hit, so, I thought it worth posting.
> 
> I manage woodlots around wells and like the idea of NOT spraying patroleum based bar oil all over the woods and myself. I think I'll try it - today. I stole a bottle of canola from my wife's cabinet.
> 
> Some tests mentioned in other links imply the bar might even last longer. Even if they don't, it'll be nice to brag about being environmental cool ... green ... whatever.




you drive a prius dont you?


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## SINGLE-JACK

Actually, a nasty old '94 Dodge Ram 360 4x4

Cain't haul no firewood in a pius!


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## asthesun

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Actually, a nasty old '94 Dodge Ram 360 4x4
> 
> Cain't haul no firewood in a pius!



bio-diesel then?


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## SINGLE-JACK

nah - diesels are too loud - don't want to wake any baby birds before I start my saw. The RAM 360 is the big gas engine. The veg-oil will be my penetance for 10 MPG.

It's fun to try new stuff - it'll be interesting to see how the veg-oil idea works. - Maybe, I could paint my Stihl bars green - NOT.

Seriously, it'll be a good selling point for the prius driving customers. And, there are some lots (near wet lands) that won't allow petroleum bar oil.


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## asthesun

SINGLE-JACK said:


> nah - diesels are too loud - don't want to wake any baby birds before I start my saw. The RAM 360 is the big gas engine. The veg-oil will be my penetance for 10 MPG.
> 
> It's fun to try new stuff - it'll be interesting to see how the veg-oil idea works. - Maybe, I could paint my Stihl bars green - NOT.
> 
> Seriously, it'll be a good selling point for the prius driving customers. And, there are some lots (near wet lands) that won't allow petroleum bar oil.



yeah i can see that. someone commented about being able to get veggie oil with much greater availability than bar oil, but thats not necessarily true. i dont use 'bar oil' usually, i grab some 30 weight oil from the gas station, works fine. plus, in a storm situation, grocery stores might be closed, but you can always find a gas station (maybe they dont have gas, but they're prolly open)


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## SINGLE-JACK

Good point - I think, from what I've been reading, you can mix the veg-oil with bar-oil with motor-oil ... what ever, in a pinch. I've even read that some guys re-cycle their used motor oil through their saws. Now that's a perversion of the re-cycle concept. I don't think I'll try that - I plan on just adding the canola to what ever is in the oil tank and let-r-rip. 

I buy a lot of oil - if this veg-oil thing works I'll buy a skid of canola a Costco and save some real bucks.


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## asthesun

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Good point - I think, from what I've been reading, you can mix the veg-oil with bar-oil with motor-oil ... what ever, in a pinch. I've even read that some guys re-cycle their used motor oil through their saws. Now that's a perversion of the re-cycle concept. I don't think I'll try that - I plan on just adding the canola to what ever is in the oil tank and let-r-rip.
> 
> I buy a lot of oil - if this veg-oil thing works I'll buy a skid of canola a Costco and save some real bucks.



yeah i've seen people do that, its disgusting. turns the saw black and gross. plus used motor has reduced viscosity and metal flakes in it, not what i want lubing my bar


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## Austin1

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Good point - I think, from what I've been reading, you can mix the veg-oil with bar-oil with motor-oil ... what ever, in a pinch. I've even read that some guys re-cycle their used motor oil through their saws. Now that's a perversion of the re-cycle concept. I don't think I'll try that - I plan on just adding the canola to what ever is in the oil tank and let-r-rip.
> 
> I buy a lot of oil - if this veg-oil thing works I'll buy a skid of canola a Costco and save some real bucks.


Give it a try is all I can say, I have been using it for a few years now and really do feel that I need less canola and my chains never even get warm. But in the last year the price has gone way up I just bought a gallon for the deep fryer too malty purpose oil.
I do flush out my oil tanks on my saw's with diesel at the end of the season to store my saw's The deep fryer gets dumped and washed lol.


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## daytondedrick

*Used motor oil*

Not to change the subject, but a contractor I know has been using used motor oil for years. Questionable in a couple of regards. Wouldnt you all agree?


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## Tree Machine

Way back when, I would use the drained oil from the oil change in my chipper as bar lube and call it 'recycling'. That phase didn't last long. Recycling sort of needs to have some implicit consciousness toward the environment. I realized I was rather unconsciousness, or naive, regardless of my otherwise good intentions.


daytondedrick said:


> Questionable in a couple of regards.


Questionable in more than a couple ways.


asthesun said:


> its disgusting. turns the saw black and gross. plus used motor has reduced viscosity and metal flakes in it, not what i want lubing my bar


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## Tree Machine

Hey Daytondedrick, welcome to Arboristsite. Thanks for dropping in.


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## tam

well, i'm employed again, which means the boss will provide saws and oil. i don't need to worry any more.


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## Greenstar

Greenstar said:


> Tree Machine, I hve been in business for 15 years and barely ever have HAD to replace a bar. I don't know... I have heard conflicting reports.. Some guys seem to replace their bars often, where others rarely, usually only when they are accidentally bent, or else an oiler problem..
> 
> ANyhow, I never have to really replace my bars.. Why do u have to replace your bars so often..?
> 
> I guess this is an old thread, but maybe someone can respond.. Thanks
> 
> ps. maybe this says a little something about running vegetable oil??
> 
> greenstar~





asthesun said:


> if you keep the bar clean there shouldnt be any oiling problem as a result of the something with the bar. i use an air compressor to blow out my saws every other day or so. i bend a bar every 6 mos or so, usually when it gets pinched by wood or stuck in wood thats on its way to the ground. i have pretty good luck with getting smaller bars back into shape, seems like larger bars are never the same. i've noticed alot of the guys on my crew do something really annoying, drives me crazy. when making a stump cut, they'll pull up at an angle instead of back on a plane with the saw/cut. they'll also lean on the saw in the cut when they reposition themselves. i even watched a guy try to pop the stump off with the saw in the cut!




But I am asking about whether "TreeMachine" is maybe unconsciously replacing bars so often BECAUSE of veg-oil use actually ruining/wearing bars more quickly.

PS... USUALLY I see BAR DAMAGE AND WEAR just past the end sprocket on the underside of the bar! Thats where it always seems to wear the worst on my saws. I just looked at my 22" 036Pro bar and its actually got chips and a small chunk taken out there, and it was concerning me even..
Anyway, other than burring down along the whole length of the bar every so often, which seems easily taken care of with any file after just taking the chain off, this is the only wear and damage to a bar I ever seem to experience... So I don't know about _"a year, year and a half out of a bar!!_"!! TreeMachine. SOUNDS VERY PECULIAR!


I'm sorry I had to pick this out fellas. The argument for non-petroleum based oil use for bar oil sounds strong, and I may try it, but I was trained as a crtitical thinker while getting my degree in biology AND this FREQUENCY OF REPLACEMENT is acting as something of a red-flag!


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## Tree Machine

Greenstar said:


> this FREQUENCY OF REPLACEMENT is acting as something of a red-flag!


Hi Greenstar. Sorry I didn't get to answering your question, but here goes. I'll try to answer in enough detail, but possibly at the expense of offering too much overall in explanation.

First, 18 months on a bar is a good run for me. I am a commercial Arborist, the owner of the business and see a lot of continuous action. Unlike Austin1, who flushes his tanks at the end of the season with diesel (a good idea), I don't have an 'end of the season', just brief vacations. Winter is as busy as Summer and is often when I hire extra help. 50 - 60 hour weeks are the norm for most seasons but it goes down to about 40 in the Winter because of the shortened daylight hours. Just the sheer number of hours of usage has something to do with bar life. Maybe cycling between sub-freeze / operating temp does too.... I don't really know.

I claim to recycle every bit of every tree. This means chips get bioconverted back to soil, premium logs get milled into planks and a lot of firewood gets cut. The chips, it is nice to say, have only residual vegetable oil in them, so folks can handle them for landscaping, or be safely used for playground use of the bioconverted soil can be used for growing vegetables. Milling logs into lumber is very tough on a bar and chain. 

I have a Bandit 6" chipper, meaning a 6" log is the maximum size it can take and if we're wise if we only chip 4" and down to conserve fuel and engine wear and minimize trips to get rid of chips. So what happens to pretty much everything 4 inch diameter and up ? Firewood. This may be laughable to larger companies with big chip trucks, big chippers, prentice or crane loaders and bigger crews but our efficiency (profit) is equalled by the fact that our equipment overhead is way low and I have guys standing in line to come and take the firewood. The tradeoff to the low overhead costs is that I have to make a LOT of firewood. Having a number of firewood recipients makes it so we don't have to handle the wood very much, maybe just toss it into a general area, but if I time their arrival just right I cut it and never have to touch it. However, I make a number of truckloads a week of firewood, forearm diameter and up, and this may be in part why I can't get two years out of a bar.

I cut the stubs off the downed logs and limbs flush with the log's surface. This is a bigger cut than leaving a stub protruding out past the branch collar. More cutting, but a higher quality end-product. It makes it so the firewood splits better and stacks better. My main firewood guys generally drop their duties and come get the wood when I call. In like, I make them the highest quality firewood of which I am able (they're in the business to sell it). More detail, yea, more cutting, but in the sense that they are helping me to help them, we all do what we can to make this system work. As a biologist, Greenstar, you are certain to understand what is meant by a beneficial, mutualistic symbiotic relationship. 

Big rounds, too big for the firewood guys to load by hand I will cut lengthwise into fourths. Cutting _with_ the grain creates 'shredded mozzerella' sawdust. Big takedowns require a lot of firewood to be cut in the first place, and when I get into quadding these big diameter rounds it just makes for a lot of work for the saws. This could have something to do with bar life.

I hit dirt now and then like any of us. Sometimes I press on, rather than stopping and resharpening, depending on how bad, or what I hit, and how much daylight is left and how close I am to being finished when the chain drops in effectiveness. I like to think I'm a stickler for running a sharp chain all the time, but I'm nowhere near perfect in that department, though I am acutely aware of when the chain is too dull to move on. These moments of less-than-perfect sharpness could have something to do with bar life.

I run 8-pin, rather than 7 pin sprockets, giving a higher chain speed. This could have something to do with bar life.

My main firewood maker is a power-ported Husky 346 XP that I changed out the 7-pin .325 sprocket to an 8-pin 3/8 sprocket. I run 3/8 low profile chain and a smaller 14" bar, the same used on top-handled climbing saws. The reason is I have a higher-powered saw with 12,500 RPM top speed and a thinner kerf bar and chain is I want wicked-fast cutting of firewood since I do so much of that. I take advantages anywhere I can. The bar and chains are undersize for the saw. Bars this size, though, aren't that expensive and I buy chain by the 100-foot reel and have chain-making gear onboard in the field. I think this unconventional setup might have more to do with bar life than anything else.

I sometimes do plunge-cutting for creating mortise and tenons, or gargantuan dovetails, crafting occasional benches out of trunk/log sections. Not a whole lot, but I do get these requests now and then and if they're willing to pay my regular climbing fee I'll do whatever they want. I can blow a tip doing a plunge while the rest of the bar is fine. This can take a bar out early. Mini bars don't generally have replaceable sprocket tips, so you blow out the tip, you say goodby to the bar.

I cut stumps really low for the stump grinding guy. Often there is dirt pockets embedded in the convolutions of the buttress. Sometimes you go through them, the chain dulls somewhat, but you're still cutting, so you keep going, especially if it is the last cut of the day. This definitely creates accelerated wear on a bar.

Recently I had to dice up a bunch of piles of stacked brush out in some guy's woods. Stacks taller than me, he was wanting us to drag 5 of these piles out of the woods to be chipped. I politely declined, but offered an option to diminish the size of the piles from 8 feet tall down to two or three, leaving a compact area where he could continue to pile brush on top of into the future. This is very, very hard on a bar as all the branches and limbs are going all directions and your chain wavers left and right offering inconsistent pressure on the left and right bar rails as it passes through the tangled mess. You have to run your chain with extra tension, and still you're gonna pop the chain off now and then. Not recommended practice.

What else? I work in the rain and really don't mind it. If I can leave a crowned-out major trunk standing, poised for felling, and come back and fell and buck it up in the rain, this is a good use of time that I might otherwise stay home. This won't make sense to many, but with as heavy a schedule as I have, it sometimes makes more sense to clean up the crown, leave a pile of firewood at the base of the standing trunk and move on to other climbing duties while the weather is good. This maximizes profit, allows me to get to the next waiting client and come back to something I can do when it rains and climbing is less than ideal or less safe. I'm not sure, but using a saw in the rain _has_ to be harder on it, as well as tougher on the bar and chain. This could have something to do with bar life.

All things considered, I'm pretty thrilled if I get a year and half out of a bar. With a 14" bar costing hardly more than a 14" pizza, the comparative cost of 18 months of bar use compared with other expenses like 18 months of lunches, or 18 months of fuel mix, the cost of 14" bars (though we're not talking about money) is almost laughably low.

Back in my petro bar oil days it seemed like the life of a bar was not any different.

Right now I'm running a 12" titanium carving bar on the 346. Sizzling fast firewood cutting, a wee bit lighter overall. 

As predicted, a whole lot of words.
I hope this answers your question.


----------



## Greenstar

I have A BIG PROBLEM. I have been using VEGETABLE OIL in all my saws this year, and NOW THAT THE WEATHER IS GETTING COLD, THE OILERS ARE CLOGGED.
This has never been a problem for me in 14 years in the industry, BUT since I started using using vegetable oil this year, it works great when warm out, and I swear by it now, but ALL MY SAWS ARE CLOGGED NOW!
I'm in New England, so its not that cold. Its barely dropped below freezing, maybe a few nights so far, but barely!

However, this is a real situation. Both my Stihls 026 Pro and 046 Magnum, as well as both my Husky 338's all are having trouble oiling. Is this a big problem? I poured a little bit of gasoline in the tanks to try to thin it out and clear it out, but its only helped a little.

PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS SOME ADVICE AS TO WHAT TO DO!

Thank you.

Greenstar-Boston


----------



## lego1970

Greenstar said:


> I have A BIG PROBLEM. I have been using VEGETABLE OIL in all my saws this year, and NOW THAT THE WEATHER IS GETTING COLD, THE OILERS ARE CLOGGED.
> This has never been a problem for me in 14 years in the industry, BUT since I started using using vegetable oil this year, it works great when warm out, and I swear by it now, but ALL MY SAWS ARE CLOGGED NOW!
> I'm in New England, so its not that cold. Its barely dropped below freezing, maybe a few nights so far, but barely!
> 
> However, this is a real situation. Both my Stihls 026 Pro and 046 Magnum, as well as both my Husky 338's all are having trouble oiling. Is this a big problem? I poured a little bit of gasoline in the tanks to try to thin it out and clear it out, but its only helped a little.
> 
> PLEASE, IF ANYONE HAS SOME ADVICE AS TO WHAT TO DO!
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Greenstar-Boston



Probably have to put a little alcohol in there to break it up such as methenal or ethenal. Vegtable oil is plant based so the sterile glucocides are probably starting to crystalize and gel the oil up. Vegtable oil gels at pretty high tempatures. 


On a side note, I've been useing used motor oil for several years but I don't use it on pruning residential trees because it looks horrible on the fresh cuts. Also I don't run the saws full time so it may be bad on the saws if you are using them full time.


----------



## newsawtooth

Clogged oilers? For goodness sake, that is awful. Whatever you do, don't clean the saws, ever.


----------



## lego1970

newsawtooth said:


> Clogged oilers? For goodness sake, that is awful. Whatever you do, don't clean the saws, ever.



I hear what your saying but you can clean it all you want but the parrifins will still get waxy residue on the screens inside the oil resivior. Cleaning it will only help temporarly. 

The only thing you could do is pre-cool the oil then screen it to try and get all the sterile glucocides out before useing it as bar oil. Even then you probably won't get all the crystals out.


----------



## newsawtooth

I hear what you're sayin' Lego, it's just not what I've been seeing. Oilers clog sometimes with any oil. I've had good luck with Canola oil. I don't do anything different and I don't break the saws down and clean them much more than once every couple weeks with daily use. I usually just sharpen them and blow them out after I use them and that seems to be enough.


----------



## lego1970

It's all good.


----------



## treemandan

I use the blood of my slain enemies to lubricate my bar tips and thier intestines to make rope.


----------



## newsawtooth

The headrests in my chip truck are a nest of thorns and the motor runs on blood, sweat, and tears. I only get about half the mileage on sweat and tears. Your ropes must be supple.


----------



## alinicoll

Interesting reading this. I used to use veg oil but then stopped. I think i`ll go back to veg oil


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

If you use your saw occasionally, don't do veggie. It will gum up if it sets for too long. I guess it's fine for commercial users, but probably not for the homeowner.


----------



## madmax

lego1970 said:


> On a side note, I've been useing used motor oil for several years but I don't use it on pruning residential trees because it looks horrible on the fresh cuts. Also I don't run the saws full time so it may be bad on the saws if you are using them full time.


 Used motor oil truly is HELL on the oil pump due to metal shavings, sludge,dirt,etc., but I refuse to use veggie oil just because of Al Gore and this green phase we seem to be going through, lotsa good old petro based oil to be used, (just doin my part to keep the drillers in business).


----------



## fishercat

*just for you.............................*



Kneejerk Bombas said:


> There are both environmental and health reasons for running vegie oil. Also, in this day and age, if you need to ask why we should reduce our dependence on foreign oil, you should be riding to work in a short bus, and then led to your work site with a leash.
> A properly sharpened and adjusted chain needs very little oil. I can run a tank or two with virtually no oil, before the chain tightens up. Then a few drops of oil, and it's good to go some more.
> Typical homeowner types need gobbs of oil to keep things going. Think about a dull saw, a two hundred and seventy pound guy leaning on it with one hand, the other holding a beer, a cheese dog, and at the same time smoke pours out of the kerf.
> How do you know if you suck at sawing? You claim an oiler is not fast enough, or you put a faster oiler on your saw (unless you're milling).
> Yeah, sure, the reason the bar is smoking is because the oil isn't good enough...Rolleyes
> Chew on this: A sharp chain, with proper angles, feeds and cuts with almost no friction on the bar. If you're pushing in the cut, smoking bars, and feel the need to turn up the oil adjuster past half, you suck.



i run petro and all my oilers are wide open!

chains are sharp though.


guess you better go back to polishing your destined to be worthless commemorative Obama coins.


----------



## Greenstar

madmax and fishercat, you both sound like a bunch of uneducated dumb lumberjacks. Why dont you post on a thread where you belong. Get a life dude! Do you know how bad drilling for oil damages the earth in places. What if people came in and cut down ALL the trees you guys work on just to drill and tear apart the earth leaving huge excavation sites in your backyard, WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN NEEDED! Its all just a scam now! And you guys buy into it. We could be running on sustainable energy easily! But you guys still buy it! What fools!

Try learning something new for once in your life instead of just regurgitating old ignorant comments you all just learned from your stupid role models because you think it sounds cool just to be haters! Why are you such haters!? Have you ever heard the comment, or are you just going to make a racist one now too! Haha.. Lol...


----------



## fishercat

*sorry but.......................*



Greenstar said:


> madmax and fishercat, you both sound like a bunch of uneducated dumb lumberjacks. Why dont you post on a thread where you belong. Get a life dude! Do you know how bad drilling for oil damages the earth in places. What if people came in and cut down ALL the trees you guys work on just to drill and tear apart the earth leaving huge excavation sites in your backyard, WHEN IT IS NOT EVEN NEEDED! Its all just a scam now! And you guys buy into it. We could be running on sustainable energy easily! But you guys still buy it! What fools!
> 
> Try learning something new for once in your life instead of just regurgitating old ignorant comments you all just learned from your stupid role models because you think it sounds cool just to be haters! Why are you such haters!? Have you ever heard the comment, or are you just going to make a racist one now too! Haha.. Lol...



i don't believe everything i read because it is fashionable.these so called greenies are making quite a pretty penny off these lies.you can believe whatever you want.it is your right as an American.same as it is mine to believe what i want.

the greenie libs also tell us how much damage humans do to the earth,yet they encourage and pay them to make more.go figure.they also vote for folks to fly around the globe in jets so they can preach to everyone else about their damaging carbon footprint.how nice it is that they are exempt. maybe if we are so bad you libs can move to the moon.give the planet a break from your carbon footprint and hot air.

when you walk everywhere and give up anything and everything made of dinosaur remains,i might think of listening to your gibberish. 

now you can go back to making rainbow togas for the Barney Frank re-election campaign.


----------



## lego1970

I'm not fan of Al Gore or some of the other green wannabes out there but I do believe letting all the trapped carbon into the atmosphere could possibly have a negative impact on the enivroment. Volcanos produce a tremendous amount of emmisions so it's not just humans alone that are doing all the polluting but when you drive into some of the big cities out west you can really see how much smog is being produced by us. When you see all that brown smog being produced everyday common sense tells you that it's probably not a good thing. Like smoking cigs 70 years ago before the Surgeon General said it was bad for you, common sense should tell you that inhaling smoke into your lungs might have a negative impact on your health. There is no way to trap that carbon and put it back into the ground, and with the reduction of rain forest, you lack the ability to trap that carbon into plants so it escalates the potential for there to be problems. However the good thing about housing that is made from lumber is that we trap that carbon into homes that will be around for 100 years so while we release a lot of carbon that was trapped in the ground, we at least are trapping some of it into the structures of the building. Biofuels are great and I think from a strategic military and security of the the United States point of view it's important that we have the ability to produce enough to keep military, farm equipment, and some transportation equipment running in the event we were to be cut off from petro fuels. Biofuels are also great because they are fairly carbon nuetral, but at the moment they can not produce enough per acre of feedstock (soy, rapeseed, canola, corn, switchgrass, etc, etc) to sustain even just our 10 million barrel a day transportation diet, let along the other 10 million barrel a day for manufactuering. Wind solar and other forms of energy are great as well but still thing like oil and coal are cheap so it doesn't do anybody any good if you go broke trying to be green. I think it's imporatant that we invest into alternative sources of energy but not to the point where we go broke doing it. I thought it was great that Bush invested 5 billion into alternative energy (more so then any President before him) and likewise I think it's great that Obama has been trying to push for more fuel effieceint cars. What Bush or Obama's motives are, I have no idea but I like to think that's it's sincere. I think we need to keep pushing ourselves towards a cleaner source of energy, but do so in a realistic manner and also be willing to let go of some of the new technology if it's just not proving to be beneficial. Personaly I think we are going at just right pace of investing/gambling (what ever it proves to be) and implementing some of the newer technology while still using cheap currant energy sources. That's just my view on the subject. 

Also I know there are members from other countries on this website so I apologize when I say "we, us, our, etc, etc". I'm referring to other Americans when I wrote this post.


----------



## madmax

lego1970 said:


> I'm not fan of Al Gore or some of the other green wannabes out there but I do believe letting all the trapped carbon into the atmosphere could possibly have a negative impact on the enivroment. Volcanos produce a tremendous amount of emmisions so it's not just humans alone that are doing all the polluting but when you drive into some of the big cities out west you can really see how much smog is being produced by us. When you see all that brown smog being produced everyday common sense tells you that it's probably not a good thing. Like smoking cigs 70 years ago before the Surgeon General said it was bad for you, common sense should tell you that inhaling smoke into your lungs might have a negative impact on your health. There is no way to trap that carbon and put it back into the ground, and with the reduction of rain forest, you lack the ability to trap that carbon into plants so it escalates the potential for there to be problems. However the good thing about housing that is made from lumber is that we trap that carbon into homes that will be around for 100 years so while we release a lot of carbon that was trapped in the ground, we at least are trapping some of it into the structures of the building. Biofuels are great and I think from a strategic military and security of the the United States point of view it's important that we have the ability to produce enough to keep military, farm equipment, and some transportation equipment running in the event we were to be cut off from petro fuels. Biofuels are also great because they are fairly carbon nuetral, but at the moment they can not produce enough per acre of feedstock (soy, rapeseed, canola, corn, switchgrass, etc, etc) to sustain even just our 10 million barrel a day transportation diet, let along the other 10 million barrel a day for manufactuering. Wind solar and other forms of energy are great as well but still thing like oil and coal are cheap so it doesn't do anybody any good if you go broke trying to be green. I think it's imporatant that we invest into alternative sources of energy but not to the point where we go broke doing it. I thought it was great that Bush invested 5 billion into alternative energy (more so then any President before him) and likewise I think it's great that Obama has been trying to push for more fuel effieceint cars. What Bush or Obama's motives are, I have no idea but I like to think that's it's sincere. I think we need to keep pushing ourselves towards a cleaner source of energy, but do so in a realistic manner and also be willing to let go of some of the new technology if it's just not proving to be beneficial. Personaly I think we are going at just right pace of investing/gambling (what ever it proves to be) and implementing some of the newer technology while still using cheap currant energy sources. That's just my view on the subject.
> 
> Also I know there are members from other countries on this website so I apologize when I say "we, us, our, etc, etc". I'm referring to other Americans when I wrote this post.


 Check out the politics forum, look at The earth is warming, and the earth is frigging cold threads, do your research on both I bet you have a totally different outlook when you come back, if your mind is truly open of course.


----------



## madmax

Greenstar said:


> madmax leaving huge excavation sites in your backyard, Haha.. Lol...


 My primary source of income is the Excavation Business, so your primarie point is, what? Ha Ha?


----------



## lego1970

madmax said:


> Check out the politics forum, look at The earth is warming, and the earth is frigging cold threads, do your research on both I bet you have a totally different outlook when you come back, if your mind is truly open of course.



I peeked into those threads. That's a lot of info that would take me awhile to go thru. From what I could tell just by taking a peek, my outlook is pretty much the same and yes I have an open mind. I'm pretty much right in the middle in my thinking but lean a little towards burning carbon has negative affects. Just because I'm not sold on one way or the other doesn't mean my mind isn't open to coming to a conclusion in either direction. I think it's smart to study the enviroment and our possible impact on it, come up with possible solutions just in case there are problems, and yet at the same time don't make rash decisions. 


On your other post, I said I don't use the chainsaws full time and if I did I might have another outlook on using used motor oil. The other thing is that I owned a semi so every month I had 11 gallons of used oil laying around and had to find every little way to use it up, especially in the summer when I can't even give it away for free. Having said that, the oil filters on a vehicle do a pretty good job of collecting metal shavings. I guess my thinking is that if the oil filtration systems is good enough for a $5000 to $20,000 dollar engine that has very tight tolerances, then it's good enough for my chainsaws oil pump, bar, and chain.


----------



## madmax

lego1970 said:


> On your other post, I said I don't use the chainsaws full time and if I did I might have another outlook on using used motor oil. The other thing is that I owned a semi so every month I had 11 gallons of used oil laying around and had to find every little way to use it up, especially in the summer when I can't even give it away for free. Having said that, the oil filters on a vehicle do a pretty good job of collecting metal shavings. I guess my thinking is that if the oil filtration systems is good enough for a $5000 to $20,000 dollar engine that has very tight tolerances, then it's good enough for my chainsaws oil pump, bar, and chain.


 Good to know I'm talking to another working Guy, my whole point on the oil is,(and I know I'm gonna get hit from all sides here), Petro Oil never wears out, it just gets dirty, period. I come from the same camp your from, but after you decide to keep a saw around for a few yrs., its well worth buying bar oil for it instead of replacing the pump just to prove a point.


----------



## lego1970

madmax said:


> Good to know I'm talking to another working Guy, my whole point on the oil is,(and I know I'm gonna get hit from all sides here), Petro Oil never wears out, it just gets dirty, period. I come from the same camp your from, but after you decide to keep a saw around for a few yrs., its well worth buying bar oil for it instead of replacing the pump just to prove a point.




If I was cutting full time, or had high dollar saws I wouldn't be so relaxed about the use of used motor oil. The other thing is that I normally drop a saw:censored:, run it over:censored:, drop something on it:censored:, or somehow screw it up:censored: long before it dies from old age. I guess that's why I always buy the cheap saws. Take care, Lego.


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## pdqdl

I recently started using veggie oil; so far, no complaints.

Regarding used motor oil: it is very messy when it leaks, so you should anticipate your trucks, tool crib, and customers lawns to look like a disaster. The biggest reason to use genuine bar oil is because it is so thick and sticky; it adheres to the chain better, thereby requiring less wasted oil.

For those of you who don't think so, petroleum based motor oil DOES wear out. When I installed my waste oil heater in my shop; we did not have enough used oil in the tank to make it fire up. So we primed the pump with a quart of brand new motor oil, despite specific instructions from the manufacturer to use waste oil. After many hours of fruitless attempts to get the damn thing working, _it would not ignite and burn_. When I finally got the factory serviceman on the phone to help me troubleshoot, he knew exactly what was wrong. The first words out of his mouth were "_You primed it with new motor oil, didn't you?_" 

It turns out that motor oil decomposes somewhat with use, and becomes fuel for waste oil burners. New oil won't do the job, which is well known to anybody with a waste oil burning furnace. I am equally sure that new oil does a better job of lubricating chains than used oil does.


----------



## madmax

pdqdl said:


> I recently started using veggie oil; so far, no complaints.
> 
> Regarding used motor oil: it is very messy when it leaks, so you should anticipate your trucks, tool crib, and customers lawns to look like a disaster. The biggest reason to use genuine bar oil is because it is so thick and sticky; it adheres to the chain better, thereby requiring less wasted oil.
> 
> For those of you who don't think so, petroleum based motor oil DOES wear out. When I installed my waste oil heater in my shop; we did not have enough used oil in the tank to make it fire up. So we primed the pump with a quart of brand new motor oil, despite specific instructions from the manufacturer to use waste oil. After many hours of fruitless attempts to get the damn thing working, _it would not ignite and burn_. When I finally got the factory serviceman on the phone to help me troubleshoot, he knew exactly what was wrong. The first words out of his mouth were "_You primed it with new motor oil, didn't you?_"
> 
> It turns out that motor oil decomposes somewhat with use, and becomes fuel for waste oil burners. New oil won't do the job, which is well known to anybody with a waste oil burning furnace. I am equally sure that new oil does a better job of lubricating chains than used oil does.


 New Oil is not contaminated with gas or diesel fuel either, drain oil is, send it to a lab and prove me wrong.


----------



## fishercat

*madmax is correct.*



madmax said:


> New Oil is not contaminated with gas or diesel fuel either, drain oil is, send it to a lab and prove me wrong.



if not for the burning of fuel,oil would not get dirty.


----------



## pdqdl

fishercat said:


> if not for the burning of fuel,oil would not get dirty.



I'll try to not be abusive here, but that just isn't so. Hydraulic fluid, transmission fluid, even gear oil get hot and decompose, discolor, and otherwise don't lubricate as well as they did. 

Sure, fuel contamination helps.

MadMax, I'm not sure what your point is. I am sure that fuel contamination helps used motor oil burn in a waste oil heater more than new oil. That is somewhat obvious.

On the other hand, there is no fuel contamination in hydraulic oil, and it also burns cleaner and better when "used". The new oil isn't as easily ignited as the used oil for a reason: the long carbon chains in new oil break into smaller pieces as it wears out, then it's ignition temperature is reduced as a result. So...Yes! Oil does wear out.


----------



## madmax

pdqdl said:


> MadMax, I'm not sure what your point is. I am sure that fuel contamination helps used motor oil burn in a waste oil heater more than new oil. That is somewhat obvious.
> 
> On the other hand, there is no fuel contamination in hydraulic oil, and it also burns cleaner and better when "used". The new oil isn't as easily ignited as the used oil for a reason: the long carbon chains in new oil break into smaller pieces as it wears out, then it's ignition temperature is reduced as a result. So...Yes! Oil does wear out.


 My point as far as engine oil, you nailed it. But, as for hydraulic oil, what part does the microscopic steel shavings from the pump or cylinder or ram or hose or etc.etc., play in the breaking down of the"long carbon chains" ?


----------



## lego1970

madmax said:


> My point as far as engine oil, you nailed it. But, as for hydraulic oil, what part does the microscopic steel shavings from the pump or cylinder or ram or hose or etc.etc., play in the breaking down of the"long carbon chains" ?




I'm a little lost as to where you guys are at, but even the elements in the air such as oxygen will break down the oil. Add a little heat which acts as a catalyst, and I'm sure the oxygen starts to affect the carbon chains. What that is, I don't know. I lack the understanding of stuff like double bonds, valance shells, and how exactly electrons break off but with just heat and air the oil will change.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK

The American Petroleum Institute and the EPA would have us believe:

*"Motor oil does not wear out—it just gets dirty ... "* (ref. 1 & 2)

Who would of thought ... ??? :monkey:

*However:**
"Biodegradable-based lubricants, made from vegetable oils, are emerging as a high-performance environmentally friendly alternative to the more commonly purchased petroleum oil lubricants. Users choose vegetable oil-based lubricants because they perform as well or better than petroleum oils. Additionally, they are made from plants - a renewable resource - are readily biodegradable, low in toxicity, and have a longer life due to the higher viscosity index." * (ref. 3)

Reference links:
Ref. 1 - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
Ref. 2 - California Integrated Waste Management Board
Ref. 3 - North Carolina Division of Pollution Prevention and Environmental Assistance


----------



## lego1970

SINGLE-JACK said:


> The American Petroleum Institute and the EPA would have us believe:
> 
> *"Motor oil does not wear out—it just gets dirty ... "* (ref. 1 & 2)
> 
> Who would of thought ... ??? :monkey:
> 
> *However:**
> "Biodegradable-based lubricants, made from vegetable oils, are emerging as a high-performance environmentally friendly alternative to the more commonly purchased petroleum oil lubricants. Users choose vegetable oil-based lubricants because they perform as well or better than petroleum oils. Additionally, they are made from plants - a renewable resource - are readily biodegradable, low in toxicity, and have a longer life due to the higher viscosity index." * (ref. 3)
> 
> Reference links:
> Ref. 1 - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
> Ref. 2 - California Integrated Waste Management Board
> Ref. 3 - North Carolina Division of Pollution Prevention and Environmental Assistance



It will change. Not 100% of the volume will change but there will be some changes to it. Just the 18% oxygen at the very top of the bottle (because I doubt they fill the remainder with nitrogen) will start to oxidize the minute specs of cooper and iron in the oil. Any little moisture that was in the oil (yes during the refining stages I wouldn't be surprised if the oil is washed with water during some stage to rid some other element then dryed off with Hexane, heat or thru seperation) or in the air contains Hydrogen which readily bonds to carbon chains that are not complete. After that you get other side chemical reactions. Then you also get seperation just from the different specific density of the additives they put in. Even the different elements leaching from either a tin can or plastic bottle of oil will leach and affect the oil. I'm talking on a very minute scale but technicaly speaking there is no way in hell that all the molecules in a bottle of motor oil will stay completely the way they are over a given period of time, especially when you throw in heat or vibrate the bottle. I use used motor oil so that should tell people I don't really care, but unused, unopen bottle of motor oil will have changes to it as minute and microscopic as that may be. That's all I was getting at. To say nothing at all will happen to oil if left alone, is complete BS


----------



## Tree Machine

I must thank you all for your time and effort in bringing to this thread the excellent and fascinating information that has next to nothing to do with this thread. No disrespect, but at least the last 15-20 posts have little to nothing to offer as far as this thread, whose title is "Veggie oil' and specifically, veggie oil used in a chainsaw for the specific purpose of lubricating the bar and chain system.

One thing I did pick out amidst all that was the term 'viscosity index'.

Viscosity Index is a quantifiable, measurable rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Low viscosity index signifies a relatively large change in viscosity with oil temperature, while a high viscosity index shows a relatively small change in viscosity with oil temperature changes, offering consistent viscosity and stable performance throughout the temperature range.

Viscosity is how thick a liquid is at the temperature it is at; for us it affects pourability, pumpability and stress on oiler mechanism components. 

Viscosity _index_ is a measure of how much the viscosity of the oil changes over a temperature range.

With regular bar oil, when temps are cold, viscosity increases. The oil gets thick and more resistant to flow; _Low_ viscosity index. That's why many users thin their bar oil with diesel fuel, or switch to a winter formulation, otherwise the oiler has to work harder to pump the thick oil and it takes more time just to get it out of the jug.

With vegetable oil, the viscosity changes very little over the range of temperatures; _high_ viscosity index. This range is from where it would be too cold for the sawyer to work in, all the way up to the maximum heat inside a saw's tank. Once onto the bar, if the bar is hotter than the inside of the tank, the oil will pick up some of that heat and when it it flung off the bar will carry that heat off with it, providing some cooling to the bar, as well as lubrication. This goes for regular petro bar oil as well. It too gets flung off the bar and carries with it the heat that it picked up.

The similarities are that both versions of bar/chain lubricant lubricate well and are stable into the upper temperature ranges. Both fly off the bar and into the environment as evidenced by one tank in=one tank out. 

The differences are that the petro bar oil and it's tackifiers stay out there in the environment for extended time, regardless of the fact that it is essentially invisible to our eyes and concern. From the standpoint of good lubrication, both are acceptable. As far as wear on your saw, regular petroleum bar oil needs modification or changeover in cold temps, veggie will go as cold as you can go and as hot as the saw can dish out, without modifying or changing anything. I recommend canola over other vegetable oils for the coldest temps.


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## lego1970

Tree Machine said:


> I must thank you all for your time and effort in bringing to this thread the excellent and fascinating information that has next to nothing to do with this thread. *No disrespect, but at least the last 15-20 posts have little to nothing to offer* as far as this thread, whose title is "Veggie oil' and specifically, veggie oil used in a chainsaw for the specific purpose of lubricating the bar and chain system.



It was for science. Just kidding, I agree. However it's still fun to beat a :deadhorse:


----------



## Tree Machine

The dead horse being the psychological resistance to change, or something to do with bar oil?


----------



## lego1970

Tree Machine said:


> The dead horse being the psychological resistance to change, or something to do with bar oil?



Does it matter?


----------



## Tree Machine

I see the point there.



lego1970 said:


> It was for science


I can appreciate that more than most

I'd like to think that more would overcome the psychological resistance to change if the scientific evidence showed it to be a better choice. And I believe there is plenty of evidence to prove it does.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK

Tree Machine said:


> I must thank you all for your time and effort in bringing to this thread the excellent and fascinating information that has *next to nothing to do with this thread. No disrespect*, but at least the last 15-20 posts have little to nothing to offer as far as this thread, whose title is "Veggie oil' and specifically, veggie oil used in a chainsaw for the specific purpose of lubricating the bar and chain system.
> 
> ...



Three years & 236 posts since the OP ... frankly, it's impressive we're still talking about oil!!!


----------



## Tree Machine

I think it's important that we are not mislead to believe that tackified petroleum oil is the only option to lubricate a bar and chain.

For those of us who are daily saw users, who bring this stuff into our homes on our clothes and skin, we should have good information to make good, informed choices.

Treecare is a dangerous business. Our choice of bar oil shouldn't have to be one of our occupational hazards.

I thank all who have taken the time to contribute, even the naysayers.


----------



## newsawtooth

Tree Machine said:


> I think it's important that we are not mislead to believe that tackified petroleum oil is the only option to lubricate a bar and chain.



This part is interesting to me. Is there any history regarding the introduction of tackifing (sp?) agents? The oil system does not require that lubricant stay in one place as it is added and flung off the bar on every revolution. Is it just a marketing ploy, a ruse to trap those that must cover themselves in bar oil to feel like they are working? Thanks for the info TM, your original observations led me to switch and I feel a little liberated.


----------



## Tree Machine

I've heard it said that its a ploy to market otherwise unmarketable, low-grade oils. That sort of makes sense. Why would they feed us the high-grade stuff? Why is bar oil cheaper than motor oil? Why does it stink so much worse? You make your own conclusions.

Here are the facts. On modern oilers there is a constant flow of oil from the oil tank directly to the bar, through the bar's oiler hole and into the bar rail groove itself, in direct contact with the driver links Flow increases with increased RPM's. Faster chain spin, faster oil flow. With ANY oil it stays on the bar for at least one revolution and is then displaced by the new incoming oil as well as being flung off each end of the bar (yes, both ends fling).

Now, tack is supposed to keep the oil on the bar longer, but it doesn't really, as evidenced that one tank in = one tank out. Oil does not 'build up' on the bar and chain, once it is gone it is GONE and with this we can say that tack is not doing its intended job. It has flung off into the environment.

Since there is a *consistent flow of new, fresh oil coming out into that bar groove*, we can say that tack is not even needed in this particular system, which is a 'high-speed, constant infusion bar and chain lubrication system."

High speed is where tack loses it's effectiveness. Tack is designed for low-speed applications and is added to oil to make the oil sticky so it will adhere to chains or other lubricated components that are not constantly infused with new oil or bathed in it, like transmission components. I know tackified oil is used on the giant chain that pulls roller coasters up that first hill. It is slow, the oil is NOT constantly infused and if it weren't tackified the oil would drip off the chain to wherever below, would cause environmental concern and would require more frequent oiling and more oil and therefore more cost to maintain. Tack is good in that case.

In our usage, all sensible evidence points to that tack is not needed. What IS needed is good lubricity and flow characteristics from way below freezing up to the maximum temperature the saw bar can give. The oil just needs to make it around the bar one or twice, do its lubricating job, then go away, cast into the environment or in the sawdust created. Ideally we'd like the oil to stay on the bar so we don't have to use so much of it, but that's just not possible at 10,000 RPM and scraping through wood. Tack can just not possibly do its intended job at these speeds and we have one tank in = one tank out to spell that out more clearly than I can describe.

The new bio oils have tack. Again, marketing and reason to charge premium prices. If there were no tack, it would be straight canola oil and why would you buy saw shop bio bar oil if it were the same as grocery grade? Why would you pay more for it?

Mine is not to tell anyone what to do. If you think tack works on our specific bar and chain lubrication systems, then by all means, keep your blinders on, believe what you want to believe for whatever non-scientific reasoning you're clinging to, and stick with it (no pun intended).


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## pdqdl

I think it is sufficient to say that Veggie oil is cheaper and better for the environment. Both renewable and less toxic.

Add to that the fact that it seems to do as good a job of lubricating the bar, and I am a convert!


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## Tree Machine

I'm not here trying to make converts out of anyone. Accurate, scientifically based information, and then you can make your own conclusions.


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## Greenstar

I agree with almost everything you say.
And I am a convert. I really dont want to use any petro anymore. I hate the stuff. The reason I bought a 1995 Dodge Cummins Diesel over 16 months ago which has been sitting since is because in about two months I am finally going to convert that into my new chip truck. And guess what its going to run on!!! 

No not beer! But close 

I have read all your argument about tack as best I could follow, and you do make some good points.
There is no denying that the oiler continually pumps out more or less the same volume of oil regardless of the type.

I think the questions are more how much of it gets flung off at the first turn, what percentage is still there doing its job (and how effectively) on the underside of the bar after that first turn, and how much of it gets flung off or makes it to the second turn. 
Thicker oil probably stays on a little longer.
Do I care or think it makes enough of a difference to pay the higher price dollar wise, environmental wise, or healthwise, NO... because I dont think it needs THAT MUCH tack and really makes much difference, especially if you're a pro who is running sharp saws and knows how to cut, like you said before!

My only worry is still my oiler problem at the moment however.... :greenchainsaw:


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## Tree Machine

Greenstar said:


> I agree with almost everything you say.


What if what I say is being passed along from what someone else said?

The point here being information should be looked at based on it's own merit, not on what some nobody says.


I believe many of us behave in 'herd mentality', I'm as guilty as the next on many levels and this statement is not meant as an insult to anyone in any way. I just think we as individuals should assess our beliefs beyond just what the guy before us said.

Tack has been one of those things. We know what it's intended purpose is, and we know it's a valuable additive in many lubrication systems. But I feel we have been led to believe its a valuable additive for _our_ lubrication system. But is it? or have we just gone along with the practice and never questioned it? Do we perpetuate its use simply because ' it's what we believe '?

Here's a couple things to try. If you are using veggie oil, open your side case, look in and around the area. Is there oil and sawdust in there? Of course there is, evidence that the oil does get around the tip without being flung off entirely. We know this because some gets flung off, at the opposite end, inside the drive sprocket area, just like tackified petro.

Next, (and this is for both versions of oil users) point the saw bar tip at a light-colored surface, gun the saw, hold it steady at full throttle for 10 seconds. Do you see a line of oil deposit? Yes, both petro tackified, regular motor oil non-tackified and veggie oil non-tackified. You could get real experimental here and use identical saws, identical RPMs and identical time onto say, a coffee filter, and then weigh them to see a difference, but in the end you still have one tank in=one tank out. You could then say one drop in = one drop out, however you cut it. 

Then ask yourself a purely rhetorical question..... if there is_ constant infusion_ of lubricant onto the bar, is it necessary to (potentially) keep that oil on the bar longer? Is it at all necessary? 

What we do know, unequivocably and without a doubt, is that only a thin layer of good lubricant is needed between two smooth metal surfaces.... not a thick layer & not a sticky layer. A consistent, thin layer, with good lubricity that will stand up to the frictional forces of light cutting using smaller bars and chains or heavy, forced, pedal-to-the-metal cutting with big saws and big bars.


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## pdqdl

I am on your side, TM, but there is one aspect that I don't think has been addressed.

Many professional saws have adjustable feed rates on their oilers. At least in theory, a stickier oil will allow you to select a reduced oiler setting.

Myself, I have gone to Veggie oil in 5 gallon jugs from Sams Club. I can't justify spending twice as much for a questionable gain by using "bar oil".


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## Tree Machine

First, it's not my side. I'm taking a scientific standpoint, and that is to try and not bring personal bias into the 'experiment'. If I am taken out of the equation then others shouldn't be influenced by me, personally. For instance, you say you're on my side. I get PM's that people think I'm full of horse$heet. I'm fine either way, this is not a popularity contest.

I prefer that everyone take a neutral stance to start with. Weigh the differences. Shed any bias, any former beliefs, any reasonings they have for going one way or the other. Let the information stand on its own merit, choose based on your personal evaluation of the results.

My entry was based on my wife's asthma. We were taking her regularly to the doctor. They'd prescribe a new inhaler. Testing for what she was allergic to. I had to build an outdoor shower and not bring sawdust in. But I had to bring my grungy clothes in to do laundry. She was reading in bed and said "Do you smell that?" "No, what" "That smell...." and she got up and started smelling around. She ended up downstairs and my chainsaw pants were the culprit. When I got down there, yea, it reeked and she went into an asthma thing. We aired things out. Days later she could deetect the scent in my work shirts _after_ they had been washed. I couldn't smell anything of the sort, but her senses are better than mine in everything but high-altitude balance and coordination. She asked me to use a different oil. I told her bar oil is bar oil. "Well what about vegetable oil?" and that's how it started. Honestly, I was reluctant at first because I was carrying this blind, unchallenged belief that I'd gotten from the guys before me.


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## Tree Machine

pdqdl said:


> I am on your side, TM, but there is one aspect that I don't think has been addressed.
> 
> Many professional saws have adjustable feed rates on their oilers. At least in theory, a stickier oil will allow you to select a reduced oiler setting.



I ask if this is an assumed theory, or is there a scientific basis for the theory?

If vegetable oil is a better lubricant based on it's viscosity index and pure lubricity, then you should, in theory, need less. Since the oiler is pumping out an excess, you should be able to turn your oiler down. I don't personally, I run it at factory spec, but my feeling is that I'm applying an excess. Here's why I think that.


On my Echo power pruner (chainsaw on a stick) I found the bar end exceedingly heavy at full reach and after extended use my back would be feeling it bad. It seemed to be more heavy when the oil tank was full and clearly this was the case. Between the weight of the oil reservoir and the oil itself, when full, was both bulky and weighty. To make my life easier I decided to remove the oiler and tank altogether and hand oil from a squirt bottle that I would keep nearby. No longer was the bar being continuously oiled. It was now intermittent and how often it would get oiled would depend entirely on when I decided to oil it.

I paid really close attention, and went by intuitive feel. Over time (that meaning multiple seasons) I find that unless I'm running it screaming, I don't need to oil more than once every couple minutes. I found this remarkable, certainly not what I would have thought (assumed).

This led me to realize that this particular saw did not necessarily need continuous oiling. One could extrapolate this result to other saws, but I won't. That's a stretch, and one saw is different than another, but in reality, we're not talking about the saw, are we. We're talking about the bar and chain.

So we could say that all bars are different, but are they? Different bars may be different lengths, different gauges, maybe even made of different materials, but the difference that _means_ something is RPM's the chain is running at and how much pressure you're putting it under while in use. Otherwise, all bars are pretty much the same, same general shape, same form, same function, oil given to the rail channel in the same way.

How much oil that is needed varies, even though it is applied continuously. The continuous application increases as the RPM's increase. Q? Is oil spun off more as a factor of RPMs or of the fact that more oil being put on the bar is displacing the oil already on the bar? My guess is a combo of both, but my gut feeling is most of the time the bar is being over-oiled.

Better too much than not enough. I would be willing to bet money that I could turn the oiler down to HALF its present output and all my saws would do just fine. That's just my feeling, though. Since the oil I'm throwing off my bar is non-toxic to the environment and the cost savings isn't enough to make a significant difference to me, I'll leave it as it is.


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## StihlyinEly

This has been an excellent read. I'm down to the last inch or so of bar oil in my gallon jug and have been thinking about converting to canola. I posted in the chainsaw forum and was redirected here. 

Thanks for the perspectives.

Canola, here I come!


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## LumberJeff

*Great thread*

I was looking into buying bulk chain oil and found 55 gallon drums of canola. unsure of whether this would work i decided to check what the arborist forums think. now i'm gonna try it tomorrow.

:yourock:


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## fishercat

*tell ya what,*

when the goody goody liberals of New York City quit sending barge loads of trash out into
the ocean and dumping it over board,I'll worry about the few drops of petro coming of my chain.


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## Tom Dunlap

Garbage doesn't bide with politics. Everyone makes garbage, even non-political people.

There are plenty of good reasons to use veggie oil. This is a very old thread that I followed and participated in so I have a good idea of what is in the thread. If a person had an open mind and wanted to get an understanding of veggie oil this would be a good place to start learning.

No one is forcing anyone to change.


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## Tree Machine

I don't want to change anyone. Hopefully you adopt new information, shed old, outdated beliefs and do what works. If there's gonna be any changing, it'll be in trying to improve my own self.


Sometimes it's more about wanting to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem, you make the individual choice. I'm willing to do a little more to help balance for those who won't. That's all I can do, that, and to genuinely care that what information I share is not bunk.

After 10 years of veggie oil use, nothing has changed, still using it, still doing fine.


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