# Underbidding $&^%%$!!!



## tree md (Jun 23, 2011)

WTF is up with all the underbidding idiots out here today. I swear, work is still going for a third less than it was 2 or 3 years ago... Even in storm damaged areas that is saturated with work you got fricking idiots out here trying to work for peanuts. I hope they freaking choke to death on sawdust from their poulan wildthing!!!!


----------



## Rftreeman (Jun 23, 2011)

better get used to it cause it's only gonna get worst............


----------



## tree MDS (Jun 24, 2011)

tree md said:


> WTF is up with all the underbidding idiots out here today. I swear, work is still going for a third less than it was 2 or 3 years ago... Even in storm damaged areas that is saturated with work you got fricking idiots out here trying to work for peanuts. I hope they freaking choke to death on sawdust from their poulan wildthing!!!!



Around here it seems like even the "real" tree services with actual equipment, have given up and just started working for ####. I get the feeling I would have to lower my rates $300 a day to compete... there's no respect for the business anymore... at least that's the way it seems to me.


----------



## husabud (Jun 24, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> Around here it seems like even the "real" tree services with actual equipment, have given up and just started working for ####. I get the feeling I would have to lower my rates $300 a day to compete... there's no respect for the business anymore... at least that's the way it seems to me.


 
I've got a local prick here that is all over the board. If he knows I've quoted the job he cuts the hell out of me ( new kid on the block disorder, little does he know I've been doing this 20 years) if not, he is the highest guy around. So I started bidding accordingly, usually too low, and all of the sudden he is higher than everyone and taking everything. You just can't count on anything or anybody these days. 

Better yet, there isn't another tree company around, less the two I work with often, whose big headed small minded employees will wave when you pass them. I guess that's why I have big shoulders, so all the ####e will roll off my back.


----------



## carveit (Jun 24, 2011)

The Tree Care business is overwhelmed with people who are victims of the economic downturn, unemployed and willing to work for an honest dollar. We need to realize that these folks have every right to put food on their table as we (the lifers) do. IMO the industry is a perfect alternative to sitting at home whining about how miserable life is because of a lay off or what have you. We need to encourage new people to become involved especially when almost anyone can plant new trees. If we take this opportunity to embrace the new wave of people willing to work with us, then our industry could achieve the highest goals our forefathers set in the beginning of this Industrial boom now entering a new era. 
We all can agree that the $$$ is not really there for eco-system regenerative work, but with new minds and fresh legs we must adapt and remember we also have the responsibility as Arborists to educate and research. At some point I knew my job would get challenging and this seems to be a real challenge for me as well (accepting new guys in the biz), i suggest we all work together quickly to adjust accordingly, shuffle over and make room for the others. Good luck! and if its no good to burn then carve it!


----------



## tree md (Jun 24, 2011)

Not trying be be too much of a smart ass but what planet are you from???

I did get the job that these ####ers underbid the #### out of after I gave a reasonable estimate but I had to match their price. I get to go block and lower every piece of a large pine and two medium hardwoods tomorrow for $700 gross, after I pay help... I don't know about you but I don't like to work for less than the amount of my deductible when I am removing a large tree from over a house. I would have walked but I figured it would be better to bite the bullet and match these freaking yo yo's bid. It was basically a strategic move to deny them work. Homeowner told me what they bid but said that he would rather go with me if I could match their price...


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 24, 2011)

I try to stay away from matching price and set myself apart from yahoos bidding too cheap but its tough now days for sure.


----------



## carveit (Jun 24, 2011)

hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make. So the client has a new card to play, just try and figure a way to counter that card, seems to me you played it when they willingly told you the price you need to match. It doesnt get much more simpler than that. Could have been worse you know, you could have never heard from him again. I gladly will take any job for any money. I must undercut my competitors or i will lose completely. Just look after your saws a little better, maybe sharpen the old chains instead of to buy a new one and stuff. I dont think it was very nice to insinuate I am from another planet Mr. Tree MD, but suit yourself if you think these newbies are going away, saddle up partner cause I think its going to get worst too just my feelings on that.


----------



## limbwalker54 (Jun 24, 2011)

opcorn:
So.....can I say that on a micro-economic scale, in our area, things are looking up......??? People are calling....we're trying to book winter work now....


----------



## Ax-man (Jun 24, 2011)

carveit said:


> hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make. So the client has a new card to play, just try and figure a way to counter that card, seems to me you played it when they willingly told you the price you need to match. It doesnt get much more simpler than that. Could have been worse you know, you could have never heard from him again. I gladly will take any job for any money. I must undercut my competitors or i will lose completely. Just look after your saws a little better, maybe sharpen the old chains instead of to buy a new one and stuff. I dont think it was very nice to insinuate I am from another planet Mr. Tree MD, but suit yourself if you think these newbies are going away, saddle up partner cause I think its going to get worst too just my feelings on that.



No one wins the race to the bottom. We need to be businessmen first,being arborists comes in second and being a chainsaw saw operator last. The quicker this happens then the industry as a whole will change for the better instead of all this underbidding crap that is going on which is dragging the whole industry down to the poverty level.


----------



## TreeAce (Jun 25, 2011)

Seems to me , the days of getting rich doing tree work are mostly over. I know that around here there is enough work to go around but you wont get big money for it. An old timer I know who is nearing the end of his career told me ..."there is enough work for everyone who WANTS to do it". Also keep in mind that unless you have a darn big outfit, which few here (AS) do i think, then there are always "bigger" fish looking down there nose at you. So..with respect to treeMD, whom I do respect from his posts, ...get used to it and dont get in over your head with bills so that you can live on 2 or 3k a week gross. Should be easy I would think. But I may not set my sites high enough.


----------



## treeman75 (Jun 25, 2011)

carveit said:


> hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make. So the client has a new card to play, just try and figure a way to counter that card, seems to me you played it when they willingly told you the price you need to match. It doesnt get much more simpler than that. Could have been worse you know, you could have never heard from him again. I gladly will take any job for any money. I must undercut my competitors or i will lose completely. Just look after your saws a little better, maybe sharpen the old chains instead of to buy a new one and stuff. I dont think it was very nice to insinuate I am from another planet Mr. Tree MD, but suit yourself if you think these newbies are going away, saddle up partner cause I think its going to get worst too just my feelings on that.


 
Thats the problem with people bidding cheap. They bid a job for 700 and think man thats good money for a day or two of work when it takes other people a week or two to make that. When you have equipment and over head you have to know what it takes to keep you rolling. When I deal with situations like this I sell quality work and tell the home owners it takes more than a chainsaw and a pickup. I have no problem walking away from a job you cant get all of them.


----------



## Bigus Termitius (Jun 25, 2011)

treeman75 said:


> Thats the problem with people bidding cheap. They bid a job for 700 and think man thats good money for a day or two of work when it takes other people a week or two to make that. When you have equipment and over head you have to know what it takes to keep you rolling. When I deal with situations like this I sell quality work and tell the home owners it takes more than a chainsaw and a pickup. I have no problem walking away from a job you cant get all of them.


 
Right. Nor want them all....I say let the little fish struggle with the tadpoles...keeps them busy while I get the better jobs. I absolutely refuse to price match. To me it's price dictation, why would I let an illegitamate novice bid it for me, or a HO manipulate and take advantage of the situation? Let him have the underbid job, while I move on to a real one. Gives him an opportunity to blow it for pennies on the dollar. Best way to let them hang themselves isn't to take the rope from them, but rather to give them enough.

I understand the other stategy, but it gives them credibility where they have none, and makes us look like we are asking too much to start with. If I bid at 900 and the ho says dingleberry said 600, it might not be for the same amount of work anyway. Nevertheless I will come down a bit, but it will be for less work, ie. leave the wood, no clean up, whatever.

And why do the HOs get upset when I say no and walk? They are supposedly getting a better deal with the other guy, right? Or, are they?


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jun 25, 2011)

Again, with no regulation on who get a license, no testing, no requirements other than money, and no one to enforce the rules, it will continue. I know for a fact, that in San Diego, this does not happen, if you are in business there, you have the credentials. If not, they will shut you down, fast. Ever notice that Jeffrey never complains about this, he don't have to, as he works in an area that considers Arboriculture an actual profession. This the reason that after 4 more years of school with my youngest, when he is done, back to Caleafus I go. Jeff, Mikey G take note!! Dana is coming too! Most other places, your just another dude with a saw in the eyes of the general public. You will never get rid of the weekend warrior or R.O.W. side work, but the full time hacker outfits could be dealt with. I try and educate every person I meet, while out and about doing bids and such, on why it is important to hire a pro vs hack. Safety and proper tree care are the main topics. Never price.

Just yesterday, we drove up on a new outfit. "Treeriffic Tree Service, Topping Specialist" was on the side, of the very nice trucks. They look new and I have never, ever seen these guys. Now I wonder, if they have a license, and they probably do, I bet the chick behind the counter at the city got a kick out of the name and made nice with them. They were sitting in the yard of a guy who I bid some work for a couple of months ago. Parked like they belong there, told me that he worked for his uncles tree service when he was a kid, topping trees and such. He worked at at some plant and told me that he had to wait on the job, as he might be getting laid off. Now, what are the chances that he is the owner of this new outfit, and maybe I just gave him pricing guidelines instead of a real quote. 
With no regulation, every guy who gets laid off is going to go into some form of tree work, mowing, landscaping retaining walls, etc. He will go out and do anything for anyone, as long as they have money. These guys are not looking at profit margins, they are concerned with not loosing their homes, so when they bid, its more about how much they need at the end of the month to pay their bills. They need 950 to cover a mortgage, then the job is 975. 

Have a crew here that the 2 original owners (brothers) are in prison for fraud. They had this uncle working for them as a GM. He gets a huge inheritance, I heard 400,000, not sure if true, next thing ya know, he has 200gs in equipment, all custom painted fire engine red. Looks like the real deal, guy is a tree topping maniac who lets his guys (all joe dirts) drink beers on the job! I got pics! If he had to take any test what so ever, or were required to prove his experience, he would be done. Since he don't, he runs around town mutilating every tree he touches. He has very low overhead, due to the cash, so he can bid for whatever he need to fix his meth addiction for the day (he needs to spend it at the dentist, ever seen a meth heads teeth!FREAKIN WOW!). He has a horrible rep, many bad reviews online. Rip offs, damage, vulgar displays in front of clients. WHO TAKES A DUMP IN A YARD! His guys do! But hey, when ya gotta go! I pay for background checks, ran one on him, dude is a multiple time convicted felon himself, Robbery, Domestic Assault w/serious injury,Theft and Burglary. So a complete dirt bag he is. But he is looked at the same as us, because hey, if he has a license and nice trucks, he is legit, right!!
I know many of you hate the word Regulation, but until it becomes a reality, expect it to complete with these guys. I wont match a price unless they are a CA. I sell them on me, not the price, if I don't get it, oh well. I can go broke on the from the couch much easier than in a tree.


----------



## Currently (Jun 25, 2011)

Instead of an inheritance, he may be laundering drug money ...

Their problem is they make way too much money to hide, your description is a classic case of this.

A discrete phone call to the local DEA will provide results in about a year or two.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jun 25, 2011)

:d


----------



## Rftreeman (Jun 25, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Again, with no regulation on who get a license, no testing, no requirements other than money, and no one to enforce the rules, it will continue. I know for a fact, that in San Diego, this does not happen, if you are in business there, you have the credentials. If not, they will shut you down, fast. Ever notice that Jeffrey never complains about this, he don't have to, as he works in an area that considers Arboriculture an actual profession. This the reason that after 4 more years of school with my youngest, when he is done, back to Caleafus I go. Jeff, Mikey G take note!! Dana is coming too! Most other places, your just another dude with a saw in the eyes of the general public. You will never get rid of the weekend warrior or R.O.W. side work, but the full time hacker outfits could be dealt with. I try and educate every person I meet, while out and about doing bids and such, on why it is important to hire a pro vs hack. Safety and proper tree care are the main topics. Never price.
> 
> Just yesterday, we drove up on a new outfit. "Treeriffic Tree Service, Topping Specialist" was on the side, of the very nice trucks. They look new and I have never, ever seen these guys. Now I wonder, if they have a license, and they probably do, I bet the chick behind the counter at the city got a kick out of the name and made nice with them. They were sitting in the yard of a guy who I bid some work for a couple of months ago. Parked like they belong there, told me that he worked for his uncles tree service when he was a kid, topping trees and such. He worked at at some plant and told me that he had to wait on the job, as he might be getting laid off. Now, what are the chances that he is the owner of this new outfit, and maybe I just gave him pricing guidelines instead of a real quote.
> With no regulation, every guy who gets laid off is going to go into some form of tree work, mowing, landscaping retaining walls, etc. He will go out and do anything for anyone, as long as they have money. These guys are not looking at profit margins, they are concerned with not loosing their homes, so when they bid, its more about how much they need at the end of the month to pay their bills. They need 950 to cover a mortgage, then the job is 975.
> ...


so if this guy did pass all the regs and such what would your opinion of him be then?


----------



## treeclimber101 (Jun 25, 2011)

Wow........... you can tell JULY is right around the corner and works a little slower now, 30 days all the pigs were wallowing and a fat , this is the profession we chose , work has always been hit or miss here , and I bid accordingly and probably only get about 40% of what I look at so what who cares , I am thrilled to be my own boss doing something I like sure beats working for some ####ing ###### making him money for the same sore back .. Maybe I won't be able to retire at 50 like I planned but thats fine ...


----------



## tree md (Jun 25, 2011)

Hey Caveit, don't take what I say too seriously, sometimes I feel like I'm from another planet. Anyone who knows me on here knows I talk a lot of ####. 

One of my groundies called me last night and said he couldn't make it to work today. Him and his wife had plans to go out of town for the weekend. He only has to work with me, he has to live with her. Still put me in a bad situation as I need two on the ground for this job. Called the customer and told them it would be tomorrow. They weren't happy but what can you do? If they did back out on me it wouldn't break my heart.

Anyway, got me another worker lined up and will do the job tomorrow.


----------



## 046 (Jun 25, 2011)

hang in there... thought all the low balling was back in Tulsa


----------



## carveit (Jun 25, 2011)

*Perfect Example*

Fella I met while going to purchase a very long ladder had just sold his house, he realized why I wanted the ladder when he was told I ran a Tree CAre co.So we walk around and look and talk about his trees. He kindly gestured that he would pass my card along to the new owner. Weeks pass and low and behold last week I receive an email (the new owner), asking for me to come and give a quote. Naturally a week passes before I have time to address the request. Last night I replied, I informed her I could attend potentially saturday or sunday or whatever would be good for her(of course). She replied this morning with the usual"I hired someone else already", in other words I took too long to reply. But in her email she Thanked me and I replied with...as I recall the Trees from my initial inspection, the trunks on these trees had been backfilled with foreign soils and to be sure the contractor was going to address this issue asap. I went on to inform her that anyone could manage the removal of dead branches and overhanging limbs to the roof. But a true caregiver would also seek to reverse the effects and bring the trees back to stress free living(in a nut shell). So she emails me back and says"I have a dillema, I asked each contractor about the soils and they all said it was not an issue. The trees were dying!! I explained that was not the case. She requested I attend tomorrow and give her an idea of what is involved and further told me the reason she bought the property wa because of the shade Trees and couldn't bear the thought of losing them, she said I seem to be far more knowledgable then all the other contractors who quoted. This scenario has inflated my ego and I am feeling very justified to make this post, people care more about the well being and general health of their trees then having a #### show pull in and pretend to be earning big dollars for what? getting some wood down to chip? So the moral is here I think, that I lost the job because I delayed, I delayed purposely to let everyone else go first and shoot their line of #### to the client and then just practiced good Arboriculture and voila! I beat the competition with TRUTH. I could show up on my skateboard if I wanted and tie the brush and drag it away, she will still pay more for my expertise and trustworthy consultation anyday then to accept "the trees are dying and will have to come down" (eventually). Bogus... I love Trees and everyone of them has something wrong somewhere, just a treasure hunt, lol. Godspeed men.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jun 25, 2011)

We all want to get the job.
I already read in other threads that you guys know I am an Op's guy and don't think I bid. Wrong! I bid alot! If I did not, our Regional Manager would be buried and behind. 
I've been doing this for over thirty years, so a manager bidding on a job that involves my crew will be talking to me.
As to the topic, You all bid against your competitor's. I like to make it apples to apples.
I went on a pre-job walk-thru and there were seven rep's on the walk-thru. I asked how many were cert arb's and three raised their hand and four did not. 
See ya later, they invite a cert against a non-cert, maybe what-ever to bid against us? Nope.
Jeff :msp_wink:


----------



## gorman (Jun 25, 2011)

Hey man, there's an outfit in my neck of the state that gets a lot of work and has some real nice trucks who has workers actually smoking crack on the job. In the cab of the truck. So the way I look at it, if this bunch of yahoos can make it, why can't I? Next time you feel slighted, just know things will get better. Even if you're puffing crack on the job.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jun 25, 2011)

gorman said:


> Hey man, there's an outfit in my neck of the state that gets a lot of work and has some real nice trucks who has workers actually smoking crack on the job. In the cab of the truck. So the way I look at it, if this bunch of yahoos can make it, why can't I? Next time you feel slighted, just know things will get better. Even if you're puffing crack on the job.


 
Don't smoke Crack!
CBS care's!
Jeff


----------



## tree md (Jun 25, 2011)

Nope, no crack allowed on my jobs... :hmm3grin2orange:

I feel that half the guys that i bid against are smoking it tho.


----------



## zopi (Jun 25, 2011)

700 for three trees and rigging? ouch. 

OTOH, this thread makes me feel better, being new to the business end of this wonderful nutball business, I have been worried that I was underbidding alot of jobs...but apparently I am in the ballpark...

:hmm3grin2orange:..I did a stop and rob estimate earlier, dying fir about thirty feet up..make it smile drop it and chip it for 200 is what I quoted them..might take an hour by myself..just to get out of the house on sunday morning...a little less than two hundred an hour ain't bad...

I am working on one now, that I underbid myself on pretty bad..oops, that was just inexperience at bidding..but..I pruned out an old willow oak i the front of this place, and made it look so much better, It has led to several thousand dollars in work for me. it is out there, and it is worth hustling a bit..but I won't play that price matching thing, I know what it costs me to operate, and I know there is another job right around the corner..and honestly, I have some sales skill...I don't need to cut my throat and that of the other professionals around me...


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 25, 2011)

tree md said:


> Nope, no crack allowed on my jobs... :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I feel that half the guys that i bid against are smoking it tho.


 
Ya don't have to lie to kick it with us tree md  We know you have crack on da job y just the other day you said a mini skirt was chasing you through the hemlocks:hmm3grin2orange: Crack kills bro:monkey:


----------



## tree md (Jun 25, 2011)

If I can do the job in a half day it would be a good job... Don't see that happening unless I break out a crack pipe tho... Maybe hire a couple crack heads to do it for me... :msp_w00t:


----------



## mckeetree (Jun 25, 2011)

These damn illegal aliens give us fits around here. They work for close to nothing. Of course, they are not that much cheaper then some cat posting earlier that thought $700 gross a day was good.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 25, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> These damn illegal aliens give us fits around here. They work for close to nothing. Of course, they are not that much cheaper then some cat posting earlier that thought $700 gross a day was good.


 
I hear ya, 700 net is fair in this market here but not good. I remember when it was easy to get 1k for a large tree not huge but large. Its hard to get 600 for it now.
Also remember, here a large is huge in your area 105 foot or so I miss climbing them bushes in north Texas lol but don't miss the heat.


----------



## carveit (Jun 25, 2011)

*Example*

Customer calls and says he was responding to the spring campaign discounts we were offering throughout spring bookings only. I was happy to hear that others thought our discount was an opportunity too(yeah right). Anyways I estimated at 2800. for all the work he wanted done which was a good day and half, for a well greased crew. Anyways with the discount the estimate was reduced to 2100.(give or take a few hunderd). So he calls coincidentally as we were on our way to the site(I swear they had a homing device attached to my stuff somewhere). He is on the phone saying that the estimate was rather high???? and he was going to shop around for some other quotes. Well wtf Batman? I said to him that was fine and I was just on my way over with the men good thing he called me, I instructed the crew to go someplace else that day. So I said to him that I would come over and rewrite the estimate for him and offered him a credit for the white pine LOGS which would be set at no more than 300- considering the value in each log (secretly calculating how many carves we could get out of this lumber). He agreed to see me to renegotiate and rewrite. When I arrived he was eager to discuss more work that needed to be done and we shook on 2000cash. I guess what I am trying to say is, when a client wishes to renegotiate it is in your best interest to do so, just my thoughts. The clincher was the wood and now I just carve it:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jun 26, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> so if this guy did pass all the regs and such what would your opinion of him be then?




He beats women - still a dirt bag!

If a guy chooses to leave the dark side of the force, I would have no problem showing him the ways of the Jedi


I want a Yoda smiley


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 26, 2011)

carveit said:


> hey man I hear ya, but 700 gross is a good day, is actually more than alot of people make.



Problem is anybody running a legitimate tree business in this area likely has a good chunk of that as overhead for the day.

Somebody running on their own, with next to zero over head, that is ok I guess.

Assuming that one is legitimate and has equipment, take all their equipment and figure how long it will last. Divide the cost by the expected life - figure that as what you need to make each year to simply replace what you have. (you may have to factor in inflation here as well)

Then factor in maintenance, gasoline and oil costs for vehicles, tools, etc.

Then (at least in Canada) - vehicle licensing, vehicle cvor (commercial vehicle operators permit)

Then business license fee

Then insurance (liability and vehicle), telephone, cell phone, web site, advertising.

Then factor in any legal items - income tax, workers compensation, pension plans (we have federal mandatory ones here).

Then any professional fees - lawyers, accountants

Then factor in any licensing or membership fees - ISA, TCIA, software licensing or support renewals.

Then factor in things like emission testing (we need to do on each commercial vehicle annually), safety inspection ( we need to do on each vehicle and trailer annually), boom inspection (annually).

Now you need to pay anybody working with you; and according to the law one cannot do tree work by themselves here (they need at least one extra person). (and you need to pay taxes, workers compensation, etc on their wages)

Now you can begin to figure out what you make yourself (less of course your own personal income tax, etc).

So.. how much of that $700.00 is actually real income to put food on your table?

That is the difference between somebody trying to run a business vs. somebody out with chainsaw and pickup truck, flying under the legal radar and taking what they can get for as inexpensively as they can take it.

Likely have forgotten some items as well.

So you see; for $700 a day gross; if you are running a business and following all the rules then I can suspect you are actually taking home far less than half of htat money after factoring in all expenses. Just my guess of course..


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 26, 2011)

Ax-man said:


> No one wins the race to the bottom. We need to be businessmen first,being arborists comes in second and being a chainsaw saw operator last. The quicker this happens then the industry as a whole will change for the better instead of all this underbidding crap that is going on which is dragging the whole industry down to the poverty level.



Agreed!!

Problem is you get a whole pile of folks who grab a chainsaw and pickup truck and are in business. 

Some days I wish a couple of them would start dropping some big trees on homes.. nothing that hurts anybody. But 

Not sure about across the U.S., but here in Canada if the contractor (in this case tree worker) is not insured the home owner is responsible for any damage to their property or that of any adjoining neighbour. In fact if there is a personal injury to any person (spectator or worker) and the contractor does not have workers compensation the homeowner is responsible (or their insurance company is). If the contractor does not carry liability or workers compensation the law considers the homeowner as their employer (they are paying them). Hence they are responsible. This has been in court, and there is a clear precedent here, was first pointed out to me by my lawyer who had some examples of cases in past. 

I only wish home owners were more aware.. of if the laws changed regulating all contractors more cleaning out the bottom feeders. It is not just tree work that has the low end lowballers. From what I hear home renovations is just as bad.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 26, 2011)

treeman75 said:


> Thats the problem with people bidding cheap. They bid a job for 700 and think man thats good money for a day or two of work when it takes other people a week or two to make that. When you have equipment and over head you have to know what it takes to keep you rolling. When I deal with situations like this I sell quality work and tell the home owners it takes more than a chainsaw and a pickup. I have no problem walking away from a job you cant get all of them.


 
Agreed. And if the homeowner is that cheap; then maybe you don't want them all!


----------



## Walt41 (Jun 26, 2011)

I think your business has lost the respect it once had, with every "guy with a truck and saw" the publics perceived value of tree work has gone down, kinda like remodeling, concrete work, landscaping and a lot of other services. I think the answer lies somewhere between a few hacks landing trees on roofs and extra time spent selling the customer on the value of hiring a professional with insurance.


----------



## Rftreeman (Jun 26, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Agreed!!
> 
> Problem is you get a whole pile of folks who grab a chainsaw and pickup truck and are in business.
> 
> ...


most are aware but would rather chance it and get something done for peanuts than pay a higher price, it's not just the people biding low, it's also the home owner hiring them that keeps them going and drives the market down....


----------



## mckeetree (Jun 26, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Problem is anybody running a legitimate tree business in this area likely has a good chunk of that as overhead for the day.
> 
> Somebody running on their own, with next to zero over head, that is ok I guess.
> 
> ...


 
Good post. The day I start sending a crew out for $700 a day gross and thinking that is good is the day I need ran out of the business.


----------



## TreeAce (Jun 26, 2011)

I hate it when I confuse GROSS with NET. 700 a day before expenses freakn blows. Depending on how many guys you are paying, etc, etc


----------



## mckeetree (Jun 26, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> 700 a day before expenses freakn blows.


 
Yep. Blows bad.


----------



## tree md (Jun 26, 2011)

Yeah, I fudged that. It was $700 net, after I paid help... Which indeed turned out to be $670 after gas... I don't even want to think about how much I made after my overhead...

Anyway, We did the job in 7 hours. Should have took 5 but I had a new guy that was sucking wind. He had to set down half the day because he was about to pass out from the work and the heat.

Still made close to $100 an hour which isn't too bad. Not my target fee but, like rope said, fair. I ended up not having to block anything. I made a barrier with pine brush to keep the chunks rolling down the steep hill and off the brick ledge onto the house. I would have like to have netted another $200 on that job at least.

Two monster Oaks to do tomorrow... They are already on the ground from the storms. Got a much better price for them!


----------



## teamtree (Jun 26, 2011)

At the end of the day if someone underbids you it is because they will work for less money. Don't lower yourself to those standards. I just laugh at those who work for peanuts or beer money. We had a guy underbid me and another compay by $800 on a $1500 job. This guy drove 25 miles to the job site every day for 5 days to remove one large Pin Oak. Using conservative estimates I guess he consumed $300 of gas coming and going to the site. So, for $500 he worked 5 days to remove a tree. That is $100 per day before other expenses. So it is probably safe to say he made less than $9 per hour and I am not sure if he paid any help on the job. I never saw anyone else on the job site. 

Fast forward 2 months....same customer needs a tree cut out of another and out of her driveway....she calls me and I dropped $3k on her....she fainted....I said get whatshisname to do it.....she tells me she tried but he is out of business.....lol......another guy did the job for $2500.

Remember this it is better not to work than to work for a loss....don't drop your prices....at the end of the day....the only expense that is really different are the expenses that set you apart from the competition.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 26, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> I hate it when I confuse GROSS with NET. 700 a day before expenses freakn blows. Depending on how many guys you are paying, etc, etc


 
Well don't do that too often :hmm3grin2orange:

Some of us in here might call you a lowballing scum suckin bottom feeder.. or worse!


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 26, 2011)

teamtree said:


> ..I said get whatshisname to do it.....she tells me she tried but he is out of business..



Hmm.. not sure how much too low he was going on pricing (that one example was about 1/2 price I think ) but caught up with him. You can not work in this business for peanuts and remain sustainable. I don't care who you are, unless you are a drug dealer on the side, won a lottery, have a rich uncle or robbed a bank.. the costs will eventually catch up with you.



teamtree said:


> Remember this it is better not to work than to work for a loss....don't drop your prices....at the end of the day....the only expense that is really different are the expenses that set you apart from the competition.


 
Agreed..


----------



## mckeetree (Jun 26, 2011)

teamtree said:


> So it is probably safe to say he made less than $9 per hour and I am not sure if he paid any help on the job. I never saw anyone else on the job site.


 
More like $9 for the whole damn job. I'm just sitting here laughing my ass off.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 26, 2011)

teamtree said:


> We had a guy underbid me and another compay by $800 on a $1500 job. This guy drove 25 miles to the job site every day for 5 days to remove one large Pin Oak.



Now not sure what your local rates are, so forgive me for making assumptions here. But based upon what you say the price should have been, this sounds like maybe 1/2 day job for a real tree company with equipment and staff.



teamtree said:


> Using conservative estimates I guess he consumed $300 of gas coming and going to the site. So, for $500 he worked 5 days to remove a tree. That is $100 per day before other expenses. So it is probably safe to say he made less than $9 per hour and I am not sure if he paid any help on the job. I never saw anyone else on the job site.



Now how or why or who would want to do dangerous, physical labor for $100 per day (before any expenses). If one did that for a whole year; assuming they could find work.. you might end up with what $20-25K in total (course I suspect he pays no gov't taxes or anything on that) -- still .. makes one wonder. 

Now not sure if anybody could live on that money anywhere.. certainally could not around here.

Of course -- you did say he was no longer in business. Guess he got smart(er), got worn out, or figured he maybe could make more money in another line of work


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

How can some of you complain about being underbid by bubbas when you're on here bragging about making $100+ per hour to drop a friggin tree? Sorry fellas, but your job skills don't rate more than most professionals get and I don't care what kind of equipment or insurance you've got. Try selling that to a HO after charging $500 to drop a tree and chip it, all in under an hour. I know I was appreciative when I had it done, but to get on here and snivel about making more than most professionals do per hour is laughable. *Most *tree removals can be done by just about anyone with common sense, a pick up and a chainsaw. Rent the boom truck, stump grinder and chipper and you're in business. In many cases, like mine, it was just more convenient to have someone else do it. Some of you really need a reality check.


----------



## carveit (Jun 29, 2011)

yeah sure, anyone with a pick-up and a chainsaw can do most tree removals eh? thats laughable. In most cases actually IMO, each tree is different and maybe some regular Joes can do it with their pick-up and chainsaw, but not efficiently, safely and economically. Most Tree removals should be handled by a professional arborist. For convenience sake I appreciate your point.


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

LOL, I love it. 

I dropped a 90' pine today in two pieces that was in between two houses. Very tight spot. about a 10' wide drop zone between the houses, 30" DBH pine. 2" from a side deck that I had to get above the hand rail on to make my final cut to drop the pole. Tree was too rotten in the top to rig from so I had to go cowboy style on it. Always the risk of personal injury/death when you are dropping 45' of tree from 45' in the air... Not to mention the fact that if I dropped it on the houses on either side I'm out a G deductible on my insurance... Three HO's (homeowners) out in the street taking pics... Gave one of them a bid before I left. The lady next door walked up after she took pics and said your amazing, you make it look so simple...

Was done by noon and counting out a grand. That's $3200 net in 3 days...

Had a 2 beer lunch with my groundy at some upscale joint where I could sit out on the patio and watch my saws and gear... Setting out there with the suits with saw dust coming out of my ears, smiling to myself knowing that I am more than likely bringing home more in a half day than what most of them will make all week... And probably bringing home more than dam near all of them do in a week in 3 days...

Snivel on that faggot.


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

And there's your reality check.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

tree md said:


> LOL, I love it.
> 
> I dropped a 90' pine today in two pieces that was in between two houses. Very tight spot. about a 10' wide drop zone between the houses, 30" DBH pine. 2" from a side deck that I had to get above the hand rail on to make my final cut to drop the pole. Tree was too rotten in the top to rig from so I had to go cowboy style on it. Always the risk of personal injury/death when you are dropping 45' of tree from 45' in the air... Not to mention the fact that if I dropped it on the houses on either side I'm out a G deductible on my insurance... Three HO's (homeowners) out in the street taking pics... Gave one of them a bid before I left. The lady next door walked up after she took pics and said your amazing, you make it look so simple...
> 
> ...



And you're complaining about Bubba making a measely $100 or so?? That makes me a "faggot"? Grow up. BTW, I'm retired and pretty well-off by anyone's standards. I promise you wouldn't say that to my face. At least not finshing your sentence with all your teeth.

Read post again, said "most" and boldened it.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

tree md said:


> And there's your reality check.


 
Brawhahaha I do pretty damn good when I put my suit on bro lol.


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> And you're complaining about Bubba making a measely $100 or so?? That makes me a "faggot"? Grow up. BTW, I'm retired and pretty well-off by anyone's standards. I promise you wouldn't say that to my face. At least not finshing your sentence with all your teeth.
> 
> Read post again, said "most" and boldened it.


 
I'll guarantee you would NEVER hand me my teeth but that is besides the point. I'm not going to take swings with a keyboard... The point is, WTF are you doing posting in the professional forum??? Get back with the HO's where you belong... And don't try to tell me my worth. I will tell you that and anyone else who wants to make use of my skills and equipment.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> How can some of you complain about being underbid by bubbas when you're on here bragging about making $100+ per hour to drop a friggin tree? Sorry fellas, but your job skills don't rate more than most professionals get and I don't care what kind of equipment or insurance you've got. Try selling that to a HO after charging $500 to drop a tree and chip it, all in under an hour. I know I was appreciative when I had it done, but to get on here and snivel about making more than most professionals do per hour is laughable. *Most *tree removals can be done by just about anyone with common sense, a pick up and a chainsaw. Rent the boom truck, stump grinder and chipper and you're in business. In many cases, like mine, it was just more convenient to have someone else do it. Some of you really need a reality check.


 Lol now I know why tree md said what he said and your fulla #### here smart ass use your common sense bro and getcha some ok















You pay because we can do it and common sense is paying for me to do it because you cant.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

carveit said:


> yeah sure, anyone with a pick-up and a chainsaw can do most tree removals eh? thats laughable. In most cases actually IMO, each tree is different and maybe some regular Joes can do it with their pick-up and chainsaw, but not efficiently, safely and economically. Most Tree removals should be handled by a professional arborist. For convenience sake I appreciate your point.



Most removals do not require an Arborist, they require a competent guy who knows how to use a chainsaw to fell a tree. Most removals in my neighborhood do not threaten anyones home. They are dead 35'-40' trees either in a large front yard or backyard with no obstructions like buildings or power lines. For a "hazardous" removal I'd go with someone specializing in tree removals with maximum insurance etc..., not necessarily an "Arborist". Seems overkill to me and I'm sure most HO's. My understanding of what an Arborist does is they are very knowledgeable in pruning and keeping trees alive, not simply removing them. Seems to me you don't need to know squat about what makes them thrive, best soil etc.... to remove them. You just need cutting smarts, a good saw, some experience and a way to get the tree off the HO's property. I miss something?


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol now I know why tree md said what he said and your fulla #### here smart ass use your common sense bro and getcha some ok
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I can see where that would be a common removal for you. Get real! You really think anyone believes that's what you deal with daily? I'm the smart &^$& ???

BTW, i DID PAY A COMPANY $500 TO REMOVE A SMALL TREE FROM BETWEEN MINE AND MY NEIGHBOR'S HOME. I COULD HAVE DONE IT MYSELF HAD I RENTED A BOOM TRUCK. YOU THINK CHUNJKING A TREE AND LOWERING THE PIECES BY ROPE IS "TOUGH"???


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol now I know why tree md said what he said and your fulla #### here smart ass use your common sense bro and getcha some ok
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

Btw if ya just have to take a swing don't say I did not warn you but you would likely be tasting my boot leather.


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

What are you, a want to be treeman/troll? Why are you here in a professional tree forum trying to tell us what we should make and that you can do it? And yes we deal with stuff like that on a daily basis. I am currently doing storm damage in Alabama where the trees are in fact much worse than that... As in hung up over houses and on houses, under tension... The bad ones... The kind where you here of old guys like you, who think they can, breaking bones trying to do it every day... This is the pro forum, not the Johhny homemaker want to be forum... 

Why am I still talking to you? Maybe I do need a reality check...


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

tree md said:


> I'll guarantee you would NEVER hand me my teeth but that is besides the point. I'm not going to take swings with a keyboard... The point is, WTF are you doing posting in the professional forum??? Get back with the HO's where you belong... And don't try to tell me my worth. I will tell you that and anyone else who wants to make use of my skills and equipment.



You already did, tough guy. Name calling on a board is pretty stupid and childish. You already went there. You're worth what you can charge, just stop complaining about what others charge and get on with your business. $3200 for 3 days work and you're smug and laughing at others while you dine at an "upscale" restaurant? Yet you complain on this site??? It's viewed by adults as sniveling and whining. I normally hang around the Chainsaw Forum, but got bored and drifted into this forum. FYI, true professionals don't snivel, complain or whine on websites. You might be on the wrong website altogether.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Yeah, I can see where that would be a common removal for you. Get real! You really think anyone believes that's what you deal with daily? I'm the smart &^$& ???
> 
> BTW, i DID PAY A COMPANY $500 TO REMOVE A SMALL TREE FROM BETWEEN MINE AND MY NEIGHBOR'S HOME. I COULD HAVE DONE IT MYSELF HAD I RENTED A BOOM TRUCK. YOU THINK CHUNJKING A TREE AND LOWERING THE PIECES BY ROPE IS "TOUGH"???


 
You think your up too the challenge? Bring your ass on with insurance I will put you in a tree and give you a better perspective.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


>



Truly an awesome job and took skillful work, but it's not what is done normally, or very often I'm sure. Bubbas are not bidding on that type of job, are they?


----------



## zopi (Jun 29, 2011)

If yer gonna use the term "professional arborist," ypu might want to consider the meaning of the word professional.

There is a professional arborist here in town...this #### is just about as arrogant as some of the posts in this thread...and me, the little start up bubba with a little gear and a couple of trucks is eating his lunch...I get fairly tired of hearing about how arrogant a bunch of these clowns are..but it sure does make for some nice paychecks for yours truly....so you have a certification...big friggin deal...there are more paths to knowledge than the obvious.

what was the line from Stripes? Lighten up Francis.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

Here ya go watch out for the power now big guy lol


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

You can come fly with me over Alabama for a day...

The 110' pine in the foreground is uprooted and hung up over a 1-2 million dollar home. I am in the tree behind it so I can put a line in it before I climb it to keep it from coming the rest of the way over on me... And to lower the whole tree from over the house... And yes, I have been doing them like this on a daily basis...






Getcha some.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Here ya go watch out for the power now big guy lol


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

You've missed the points completely. Most Bubbas are NOT underbidding you on those types of jobs. They're likely taking your cream puff 1-3 hour jobs. I never suggested the experts should not be called for when circumstances dictate it. Power line? Between homes? Those are specialist jobs. Most tree removals in my neighborhood with two pro golf courses are ideal for anyone with a truck and chainsaw. Seen an awful lot of trees dropped in yards and on the courses over the past 40 years and none took more than 3 hours and two guys. The only thing different with my "hazard" tree removal was the use of a boom truck. Anyone with the truck could have chunked it down and shredded it, anyone capable of renting the boom truck.

I'm not your average HO. Check my signature. Think I haven't felled a few trees???


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

Tell ya what roster put that suit on a sell us some work just remember Im worth 2k per day and up! Many of us here are don't mean we git it but we are definitely worth it if your good at sales you are too!


----------



## Rftreeman (Jun 29, 2011)

*truck & a chainsaw.......truck & a chainsaw........truck & a chainsaw...*

sure am glad I got a truck and a CHIPPER else I might be considered underbidding scum.........


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> tree removals can be done by just about anyone with common sense, a pick up and a chainsaw. Rent the boom truck, stump grinder and chipper and you're in business.



Well, if you can find a place that will rent you one I guess... May work for home owners (if they can find a place). I know here if you are a business, there are a lot of legal requirements to even use a boom truck, never mind a crane.

And a stump grinder and chipper.. for smaller jobs ok. But you would be hard pressed to find larger chippers and larger stump grinders anywhere that you can rent. 

Last time I checked a BC1800 was running around $65K to buy. Bucket truck is going to run you well over $100K. Bucket trucks (at least here) cost $4K a year to get all the legal crap out of way - inspections, etc.. before you even turn a wheel and make a single dollar. Chippers are high maintenance machines (knives constantly need sharpening/replacement) - stump grinders as well. The equipment one puts on the truck is in the tens of thousands of dollars - an example is we just picked up a hydraulic pole saw - for all hoses, swivels, etc.. was $2600+. Try pricing some of the blocks, or a GRCS as other fine examples of what might shock you pricewise.

We have one of the highest workers comp rates and insurance rates of likely any professional you are going to bring onto your property.. along with likely one of the highest equipment costs. 

Now if a guy is running around in a pickup with a little green saw and charging $2K or 3K for a days work.. you may have a point. But if you are rolling up with equipment that is going to run into the six digits, you are going to charge for it being there.

Anybody who does not understand the costs, really has never seen that end of a tree business. Yes guys can run around with pickup and chainsaw, with no formal training and no insurance and charge a couple of hundred dollars, but we are not even remotely close to comparing apples with apples here.

Going back to first statement, if you can find somebody to rent the items to you, and around here you won't due to liability issues (with bucket truck for sure). Then you still have some issues.. what happens if there is an accident.. where have all your savings gone?


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Tell ya what roster put that suit on a sell us some work just remember Im worth 2k per day and up! Many of us here are don't mean we git it but we are definitely worth it if your good at sales you are too!



For the truly tough jobs, I'm sure you're worth every penny of $2K. For the jobs you're obviously losing to the Bubbas, not so much. You don't pay for a brain surgeon when you only need the school nurse for a boo booo. It's all relative and some need to keep that in mind. I worked a lot of years lathing and plastering. Made good money on small jobs. Complained about losing many to illegals in the early '80s during the invasion. Didn't get me anywhere complaining to the other union members. We simply had to bid the jobs they couldn't afford to take.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> You've missed the points completely. Most Bubbas are NOT underbidding you on those types of jobs. They're likely taking your cream puff 1-3 hour jobs. I never suggested the experts should not be called for when circumstances dictate it. Power line? Between homes? Those are specialist jobs. Most tree removals in my neighborhood with two pro golf courses are ideal for anyone with a truck and chainsaw. Seen an awful lot of trees dropped in yards and on the courses over the past 40 years and none took more than 3 hours and two guys. The only thing different with my "hazard" tree removal was the use of a boom truck. Anyone with the truck could have chunked it down and shredded it, anyone capable of renting the boom truck.
> 
> I'm not your average HO. Check my signature. Think I haven't felled a few trees???


 
Rooster don't you like a little cake with your meal? These low ballers come in a hack the trees up with improper cuts they get hurt and raise our insurance rates. They would not know an apical bud from a lenticel or mychorizae from axillary bud! They also end up planting trees which they have NO business doing and all sorts of problems develop from their bubba ism


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Well, if you can find a place that will rent you one I guess... May work for home owners (if they can find a place). I know here if you are a business, there are a lot of legal requirements to even use a boom truck, never mind a crane.
> 
> And a stump grinder and chipper.. for smaller jobs ok. But you would be hard pressed to find larger chippers and larger stump grinders anywhere that you can rent.
> 
> ...



Don't know much about Canadian laws, but here in California anyone can rent a bucket truck, chipper and stump grinderd. I have 3 heavy equipment rental yards within 15 miles that rent everything you can imagine. Haven't seen any cranes though. D-8 Cat? No problem. Grader? No problem. Heck, go to the sponsor section at this site and anyone with $11K can buy a used bucket truck. They have several available.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Rooster don't you like a little cake with your meal? These low ballers come in a hack the trees up with improper cuts they get hurt and raise our insurance rates. They would not know an apical bud from a lenticel or mychorizae from axillary bud! They also end up planting trees which they have NO business doing and all sorts of problems develop from their bubba ism


 
End up giving the whole industry a bad name, and we all suffer for it.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Rooster don't you like a little cake with your meal? These low ballers come in a hack the trees up with improper cuts they get hurt and raise our insurance rates. They would not know an apical bud from a lenticel or mychorizae from axillary bud! They also end up planting trees which they have NO business doing and all sorts of problems develop from their bubba ism


 
Btw i can do the cake better usually cheaper after you consider their screw-ups that any bubba can. Why? Because I'm professional! I do many trees at or under 500 but to deploy all my gear and equipment insurance knowledge your going to pay my rate.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Rooster don't you like a little cake with your meal? These low ballers come in a hack the trees up with improper cuts they get hurt and raise our insurance rates. They would not know an apical bud from a lenticel or mychorizae from axillary bud! They also end up planting trees which they have NO business doing and all sorts of problems develop from their bubba ism



I'm only addressing the REMOVAL aspect that has been complained about. You needn't be a trained / certified Arborist to cut, drop and chip a tree. If someone likes their tree and hires a Bubba to "top" it or prune it for peanuts, they get what they deserve. I'm only talking about the removal of trees.


----------



## Rftreeman (Jun 29, 2011)

what the hell is a bubbas......


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> You don't pay for a brain surgeon when you only need the school nurse for a boo booo. It's all relative and some need to keep that in mind.


 
I can not totally disagree with that. Problem is many of them are trying to sell themselves to the public as the brain surgeon... so public thinks they are getting the brain surgeon at a bargain. Makes it difficult for the "real" one to compete.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Don't know much about Canadian laws, but here in California anyone can rent a bucket truck, chipper and stump grinderd. I have 3 heavy equipment rental yards within 15 miles that rent everything you can imagine. Haven't seen any cranes though. D-8 Cat? No problem. Grader? No problem. Heck, go to the sponsor section at this site and anyone with $11K can buy a used bucket truck. They have several available.


 
Yup assisted suicide is a felony


----------



## zopi (Jun 29, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> sure am glad I got a truck and a CHIPPER else I might be considered underbidding scum.........


 
Lol...mine even dumps! Uptown bubba!

What was that saw about the special olympics and arguing on the internet?


----------



## Rftreeman (Jun 29, 2011)

zopi said:


> Lol...mine even dumps! Uptown bubba!
> 
> What was that saw about the special olympics and arguing on the internet?


I must be a high glass bubba then, my truck has a chip dump on it.....wooohooo......


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> I'm only addressing the REMOVAL aspect that has been complained about. You needn't be a trained / certified Arborist to cut, drop and chip a tree. If someone likes their tree and hires a Bubba to "top" it or prune it for peanuts, they get what they deserve. I'm only talking about the removal of trees.


 
Only see that's the whole problem that lures many out of work bubba's to their untimely death. How many bubba's are trained in the hazards of tree removal and have a copy of the standard to ensure a safe job? How many bring hard hats,chaps ,safety glasses know the proper way to start and carry a saw? It is a crime if they are non - licensed and they are nothing more than thieves.


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

To tell the truth, I could care less what the #### bubba's got, just bid the work accordingly. These freaking landscapers and out of work carpenters and whatever else you got running around out there for 100 bucks a day.

Freaking idiots!!!

BTW, this is my rant thread. If you don't like it you can get the #### off of my cloud!


----------



## zopi (Jun 29, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> I must be a high glass bubba then, my truck has a chip dump on it.....wooohooo......


 
Cue the Jeffersons theme...

I can't wait to see a a climber long slide down foe high tea and crumpets.

You can tell I am on vacation, otherwise, I would be too busy and tired to dink around on a forum...


----------



## squad143 (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> How can some of you complain about being underbid by bubbas when you're on here bragging about making $100+ per hour to drop a friggin tree?
> 
> 
> > If Bubba is running a legit business.... then good for him. However, if a company has to pay a share to the gov. (taxes, workers comp., etc. etc. ) and Bubba is working for cash, then thats where the problem lies.
> ...


----------



## zopi (Jun 29, 2011)

tree md said:


> BTW, this is my rant thread. If you don't like it you can get the #### off of my cloud!


 
Just makin sure yer tied in twice or gotta three point contact on the cloud...

Hmm...there is a new twist...cloud removal....gonna be tough getting the gaffs to stick...


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 29, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Btw i can do the cake better usually cheaper after you consider their screw-ups that any bubba can. Why? Because I'm professional! I do many trees at or under 500 but to deploy all my gear and equipment insurance knowledge your going to pay my rate.



I fully understand, but to complain about not getting a smallish job that takes little skill or specialized equipment makes no sense to me. The average HO just wants his tree gone at the cheapest rate possible. If it's not a "hazard" tree, why pay for an expensive "hazard" rate removal? Some jobs are best left to the little guys who have little overhead. To complain about it does no good. Most tree companies around here do not pretend to know anything about pruning etc..., just removal. Again, it's hard to justify charging $500, or so, to remove a non-hazard tree in an hour, or less. As I stated before, I paid out of convenience. The guy earlier who was bragging about making $3200 for a couple of mornings work makes my point. Sometimes, people think truly competent people are arrogant, and/or just plain greedy. That's why I included my "reality check" point. I like my cake, icing included, but times are tough all over. Imagine trying to make it in the firewood business right now.


----------



## squad143 (Jun 29, 2011)

squad143 said:


> roostersgt said:
> 
> 
> > How can some of you complain about being underbid by bubbas when you're on here bragging about making $100+ per hour to drop a friggin tree?
> ...


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

Just so you get this straight I never said this was a small or easy removal. The top and several limbs had to be rigged and lowered out of a good 100' pine and I thought I was going to have to block chunks down (with an arborist block if you don't know what I'm talking about). Now I figured out a way to get around the blocking but it still took me more time as I had to have groundies stack brush as a barrier as to not have the chunks roll off the steep embankment and onto the house instead of putting the brush where it needed to go. I also had to climb a risky dead tree and piece it out. All in all I ended up doing 4 trees that day and risking a grand in liability for $670... And no, that doesn't make me happy.


----------



## tree md (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> I fully understand, but to complain about not getting a smallish job that takes little skill or specialized equipment makes no sense to me. The average HO just wants his tree gone at the cheapest rate possible. If it's not a "hazard" tree, why pay for an expensive "hazard" rate removal? Some jobs are best left to the little guys who have little overhead. To complain about it does no good. Most tree companies around here do not pretend to know anything about pruning etc..., just removal. Again, it's hard to justify charging $500, or so, to remove a non-hazard tree in an hour, or less. As I stated before, I paid out of convenience. The guy earlier who was bragging about making $3200 for a couple of mornings work makes my point. Sometimes, people think truly competent people are arrogant, and/or just plain greedy. That's why I included my "reality check" point. I like my cake, icing included, but times are tough all over. Imagine trying to make it in the firewood business right now.


 
OK numb nuts, I have done 11 trees and cleared out a half acre lot with a skid steer for that money. All competitive bids. I earn every penny that I make. I guess I did sound a little arrogant but it was only because your smug ass was trying to tell me that I shouldn't make more than you did setting behind a cushy desk. Guess what, I hustle more and work harder than you ever have.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 29, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> I fully understand, but to complain about not getting a smallish job that takes little skill or specialized equipment makes no sense to me. The average HO just wants his tree gone at the cheapest rate possible. If it's not a "hazard" tree, why pay for an expensive "hazard" rate removal? Some jobs are best left to the little guys who have little overhead. To complain about it does no good. Most tree companies around here do not pretend to know anything about pruning etc..., just removal. Again, it's hard to justify charging $500, or so, to remove a non-hazard tree in an hour, or less. As I stated before, I paid out of convenience. The guy earlier who was bragging about making $3200 for a couple of mornings work makes my point. Sometimes, people think truly competent people are arrogant, and/or just plain greedy. That's why I included my "reality check" point. I like my cake, icing included, but times are tough all over. Imagine trying to make it in the firewood business right now.


 
I can imagine!









I remember a fellow much like your self he called me out to look at a tree a bubba already bid for 300:00. It was just put it on the ground and leave lay. He did not ask what I would do it for he just said it was bid at 300 and if I could do it for that it was my job! I looked at it It was a big tree after looking I told him yeah I can do it for that. He asked when lol I said right now and he looked very happy. I get out the big shot and shoot the top and set rope. I asked where his septic was and he says no where near so I pull the bucket out and hook up the twenty ton winch get a pull and bring out the 395 xp. I put a money notch in it to miss his fruit trees and a few yard ornaments and fell it. After I rolled up rope and put my gear up he gets cranky and said if I knew it was that easy I would of done it myself. I smiled and polightly said well sir that is why you paid for me Btw; if he asked me what I would charge, It would of been my minimum. I was there 30 minutes, so; one hour just me and my bucket 150.00. bubba can't compete if you give a real tree service a chance.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

tree md said:


> OK numb nuts, I have done 11 trees and cleared out a half acre lot with a skid steer for that money. All competitive bids. I earn every penny that I make. I guess I did sound a little arrogant but it was only because your smug ass was trying to tell me that I shouldn't make more than you did setting behind a cushy desk. Guess what, I hustle more and work harder than you ever have.



There you go with that name calling BS again. Never said you, or any other skilled tree guy wasn't worth the money under certain circumstances. Under those you described, you deserve to be compensated, at least what the prevailing specialist wage dictates. Sheesh, read a little before becoming offended and juvenile. The Bubbas did not bid on that job, did they??? Apples to apples.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I can imagine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that's why at the end of the day, you'll still be in business. Cleared easy money and on to the next job. Probably had a big day. Might have taken Bubba much longer. You're obviously more efficient.


----------



## tree md (Jun 30, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> There you go with that name calling BS again. Never said you, or any other skilled tree guy wasn't worth the money under certain circumstances. Under those you described, you deserve to be compensated, at least what the prevailing specialist wage dictates. Sheesh, read a little before becoming offended and juvenile. The Bubbas did not bid on that job, did they??? Apples to apples.


 
Well, If you want to play with the real treemen and tell them what they're worth you might want to grow a little thicker bark...


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

tree md said:


> Well, If you want to play with the real treemen and tell them what they're worth you might want to grow a little thicker bark...



i prefer to converse with adults. Name calling is never called for on a website. In person, you can take your chances, but not on a computer. This thread needed a little perspective in my opinion, a reality check for some. Your attitude toward your work might be costing you some of the jobs you bid. Everyone likes to believe they're worth more than they are, including myself. I always appreciated sporadic "reality checks" when I was working in the trades. It makes / forces you to become more competitive and efficient. There's no shame in losing a smallish "no skill" job to a part time hack who's trying to make it through tough times. I've been there and done that. Complaining about it on a forum is unproductive. Hope I've helped in some small way.


----------



## 046 (Jun 30, 2011)

been reading this thread and laughing my ass off.....

in a tornado damaged area like treemd is working... most every job is hazardous. 
half fallen branches under tension ... you'd better know what you are doing. 
stand in the wrong place when it all releases ... you are DEAD!


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

046 said:


> been reading this thread and laughing my ass off.....
> 
> in a tornado damaged area like treemd is working... most every job is hazardous.
> half fallen branches under tension ... you'd better know what you are doing.
> stand in the wrong place when it all releases ... you are DEAD!



In which case Darwinism is applied and the Buabbas are thinned from the herd. Removed from the gene pool and would no longer be bidding on jobs. Agreed. Special skills, equipment and proper pricing for special jobs.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

046 said:


> been reading this thread and laughing my ass off.....
> 
> in a tornado damaged area like treemd is working... most every job is hazardous.
> half fallen branches under tension ... you'd better know what you are doing.
> stand in the wrong place when it all releases ... you are DEAD!


 
Well don't forget rope has been working the f3 that hit a mile from my trailer for the last two months:rant:


----------



## tree md (Jun 30, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> i prefer to converse with adults. Name calling is never called for on a website. In person, you can take your chances, but not on a computer. This thread needed a little perspective in my opinion, a reality check for some. Your attitude toward your work might be costing you some of the jobs you bid. Everyone likes to believe they're worth more than they are, including myself. I always appreciated sporadic "reality checks" when I was working in the trades. It makes / forces you to become more competitive and efficient. There's no shame in losing a smallish "no skill" job to a part time hack who's trying to make it through tough times. I've been there and done that. Complaining about it on a forum is unproductive. Hope I've helped in some small way.


 
Actually, this was a thread for me to ##### a little bit and talk shop with some of my colleagues on here (some of whom I have known for 10 years and some I have worked with)... So do me a favor and give your perspective to someone who gives a ####... Maybe some of your firewood buddies. Personally, I could care less what your opinion is of me.


----------



## 046 (Jun 30, 2011)

Yikes!!! that's getting too close for comfort ...

F3	Severe tornado	158-206 mph	Roof and some walls torn off well constructed houses; trains overturned; most trees in fores uprooted



ropensaddle said:


> Well don't forget rope has been working the f3 that hit a mile from my trailer for the last two months:rant:


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

Treemd,
Too bad you haven't learned a thing after all this exchange. You'll have nobody but yourself to blame for your shortcomings and failures. My posts weren't just for your benefit, but you couldn't care less, could you? You're very arrogant and self-centered. Please continue to ignore the adults. You'll feel better about yourself. You know it all. You know best. LMFAO.


----------



## tree md (Jun 30, 2011)

LOL, so I guess you blame your shortcomings on someone else? And no, I doubt there is very much you could teach me in this particular trade... And I certainly wasn't asking for pointers or correction from you about anything. So do me a favor and go converse with some adults...


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

I suggest you take a few business classes, listen to a few business consultants at various stages of your career. The key concept is being able to see and use others perspectives to prosper. The type of business is irrelevant, but gosh, you probably already know all this with your fine business acumen, experience and schooling. It sure shows. I retired at 47 and live very, very comfortably. That should tell you a little something about my business experiences. Not bragging, just saying. BTW, I only blame myself for my failings and shortcomings, but I assure you it's not from a lack of listening or understanding of others who have expressed an interest in my field of business. You have a lot to learn. An awful lot. This was a free lesson of sorts. Good luck to you.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Most removals do not require an Arborist, they require a competent guy who knows how to use a chainsaw to fell a tree. Most removals in my neighborhood do not threaten anyones home. They are dead 35'-40' trees either in a large front yard or backyard with no obstructions like buildings or power lines. For a "hazardous" removal I'd go with someone specializing in tree removals with maximum insurance etc..., not necessarily an "Arborist". Seems overkill to me and I'm sure most HO's. My understanding of what an Arborist does is they are very knowledgeable in pruning and keeping trees alive, not simply removing them. Seems to me you don't need to know squat about what makes them thrive, best soil etc.... to remove them. You just need cutting smarts, a good saw, some experience and a way to get the tree off the HO's property. I miss something?


 
All commercial tree work requires insurance,license to do business I'm not complaining about being underbid if they have it but if not they are stealing and the ho is an accomplice. I bid 5 trees once that the ho living in a 500 k home ended up using illegals with no gear the climbed barefoot and used machete to cut it down. Why should it matter? Because I pay dearly to be in my business and to provide service to customers who end up using untrained illegal's that are uninsured,unsafe and pay no tax. I feel the home owner in that instance should be charged with negligent homicide if the illegal who had no tie in fell to his death.

Now another thing that pisses us off is too many home owners automatically assume we are going to overcharge on easy jobs you mention. Quite to the contrary we will get them done faster and likely cheaper than bubba because we know how and have equipment necessary for our work. On this job I mentioned I was hurting and was being underbid all over town likely by these illegals, it stopped so I assume one may have died or my call to the city manager produced a result. Make no mistake, if bubba hurts himself on your property and has no insurance you could be found negligent then how much was saved? I was just about to give up and had my grapple listed for sale when the work began to come in. I have adjusted my rates to the economy and if I know your not wealthy have discounted work available during winter. I try to provide my customers the best solution to their tree needs but I should expect to profit and the cost of doing business is very high. If I rant about some bubba with no insurance stealing from my family mouth, I've paid for my right to do so!


----------



## treemandan (Jun 30, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I can imagine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice!

I was on a sub contract job today, I am still wound up. This guy did do some thinking, shame it wasn't the right kind. He was desribing big red oaks over houses by saying " get a few branches off and drop them"

Yeah , I might be overly tired and probably shouldn't have been involved with that BS but I came back with what I went out for plus I feel post orgasmic after pushing so hard to do what not to many other people could have done nor done it so well.

I told the guy I would not be helping him anymore. I was about to just leave when I got there and saw what the trees were and heard how much. He asked me how much I thought, I said a few K and he told me he had 1100. I told him he was fooling himself not only there but with his crappy knots. 


I wasn't mean or anything, I just told him the truth. Done deal.


----------



## treemandan (Jun 30, 2011)

tree md said:


> OK numb nuts, I have done 11 trees and cleared out a half acre lot with a skid steer for that money. All competitive bids. I earn every penny that I make. I guess I did sound a little arrogant but it was only because your smug ass was trying to tell me that I shouldn't make more than you did setting behind a cushy desk. Guess what, I hustle more and work harder than you ever have.


 
I just love to listen when it starts with " Ok numb nuts"

Do it to it MD.


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

I don't blame you for turning down jobs that aren't right for your bottom line. Who could? I never got too hung up on who was paying taxes, who was licensed etc... The home owner taking risks with hiring those without insurance was not my concern. I was a journeyman lather and plasterer, a trade union member for a few years. The illegals undercut us so many times on the smaller jobs we thought we'd have to leave the state. They undercut us by more than half per hour, had no insurance, workers comp etc... and were likely here illegally. Many were probably the grand parents of the folks you see hanging around Home Depot and Lowes. Been there. It's like I keep telling my truck driving relatives. It doesn't matter you've been driving long hall for 30+ years, the load pays xxx per mile, period. Your years of experience, truck make and driving certificates are meaningless, unless specialized licenses are required for the type of load being hauled. Same goes for any service industry business. You want to make more money, you have to either expand, or get really specialized. The pay for a job is usually what the customer is willing to pay. Supply and demand. At least you guys are busy enough to pick and chose what you're willing to take.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jun 30, 2011)

Guys, your feeding a troll here! All this from someone who wants us to be in awe of his signature, isnt that a remington pole saw ya listed, HAH! Yeah, and Arborist are only good if ya need a prune, what a awesome display of ignorance.
:notrolls2:


----------



## roostersgt (Jun 30, 2011)

Trolls don't have 280+ posts.You must be another guy with an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Only mentioned he check my signature to show I wasn't just a HO. I know a little about operating a saw and dropping trees. Suggest you read postings before popping off. Pole saw was used on one weekend to prune 30 pine trees at my cabin. You probably think I should have paid an Arborist to trim those dead low branches, huh? No need to buy the gas powered Stihl my dealer talked me out of. Would have sucked to have been storing it for years after its one time use/need.


----------



## treemandan (Jun 30, 2011)

You make some good points Rooster. I understand when you say our skill level is meaningless... Well it is to some but not to me so it means whatever I say it means to me and act accordingly doing my best to pay no mind to that which cannot be productive to me.
I do know this: People can distinquish me between most others and its the price it is or it nothing. I will work with my clients but I will not play games in hopes of landing a job.


I think I only ever really underbid 1 job in twenty years.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Nice!
> 
> I was on a sub contract job today, I am still wound up. This guy did do some thinking, shame it wasn't the right kind. He was desribing big red oaks over houses by saying " get a few branches off and drop them"
> 
> ...




The sub thing only works with true pros. I if about to work with another service am all ears, If I hear anything out of the norm and definitely anything unsafe Im gone with the wind. My bottom dollar per day is 750 but that is with bucket all my saws gear etc. Also I will coordinate but in no way are you going to tell me how I am going to take down a tree. In otherwords its my insurance,my truck and gear,my life so I have never had a problem telling someone bye or back off!


----------



## mckeetree (Jun 30, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Guys, your feeding a troll here! All this from someone who wants us to be in awe of his signature, isnt that a remington pole saw ya listed, HAH! Yeah, and Arborist are only good if ya need a prune, what a awesome display of ignorance.
> :notrolls2:


 
He is pretty trollish.


----------



## STLfirewood (Jun 30, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> The sub thing only works with true pros. I if about to work with another service am all ears, If I hear anything out of the norm and definitely anything unsafe Im gone with the wind. My bottom dollar per day is 750 but that is with bucket all my saws gear etc. Also I will coordinate but in no way are you going to tell me how I am going to take down a tree. In otherwords its my insurance,my truck and gear,my life so I have never had a problem telling someone bye or back off!


 
Truck? All I saw was a Kia lol. To bad your not up here this week I sold some good jobs at good prices. I could use some help. I'll get it knocked out though. Nothing to dangerous. I'll be able to get most of it with my Genie. Let me know when you want to see a real wood splitter I'll send you one of my super splitter to use. lol


Scott


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

STLfirewood said:


> Truck? All I saw was a Kia lol. To bad your not up here this week I sold some good jobs at good prices. I could use some help. I'll get it knocked out though. Nothing to dangerous. I'll be able to get most of it with my Genie. Let me know when you want to see a real wood splitter I'll send you one of my super splitter to use. lol
> 
> 
> Scott


 
Ahhh yes the kia lol, its charged out differently You remember ma boy ? He done went and moved to Alaska and got married lol. Hell send me a ss Ill try it loloke:

Im glad to hear ya got things going good I have been covered up all summer and start a twenty acre tornado project tuesday
it should be a week or more


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Ahhh yes the kia lol, its charged out differently You remember ma boy ? He done went and moved to Alaska and got married lol. Hell send me a ss Ill try it loloke:
> 
> Im glad to hear ya got things going good I have been covered up all summer and start a twenty acre tornado project tuesday
> it should be a week or more


 
I will get paid to haul off 80 plus cords of oak


----------



## nytreeman (Jun 30, 2011)

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/popcorn.gif


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 30, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> And that's why at the end of the day, you'll still be in business. Cleared easy money and on to the next job. Probably had a big day. Might have taken Bubba much longer. You're obviously more efficient.


 
Well as far as efficiency.. give him a break 

Poor bubba only had a little green chain saw with 16" bar, no big bucket truck, no rope, no puller.. figured all the big shots were in DC and not out on jobs hurling weight bags into trees.. How is he going to compete against all that! uttahere2: 

He likley had pegged as two or three day job :msp_ohmy:


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jun 30, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> There's no shame in losing a smallish "no skill" job to a part time hack who's trying to make it through tough times. I've been there and done that.



You see, in many areas there is more than enough work for most tree companies - at least most good ones at this time of year. Most are working their tails off. 

Although the odd tree companies around here do get work requests .. quote on them same day .. and do work same or next. Well, many times that typically shows a bubba at work.. as they are obviously hungry for work.. and doing it for likely next to nothing.

So right now if many guys lose some jobs to bubba at this time of year; it really does not matter a whole lot.

What matters is that these guys are in many ways giving the profession a bad name, doing crap for work, leaving a mess behind and driving down the value of the jobs. 

To go back to an earlier part of thread - when you hire a public school nurse -- the stitches on the wound isn’t quite as pretty -- and the would heals with a scar. That is the value in hiring the professional for a bit more money. 

Not to mention the fact the professional likely has liability insurance and workers comp covered!!

Hiring a less than competent/professional company to do any job, roofing, carpentry or tree work.. is a disservice to the profession and should be discouraged. How does one measure competency or professionalism? Well it is how they treat their customer, how they run their business, how they abide by the federal and state laws, how they treat their employees, and finally how they do the work and what they leave behind. A competent tree worker will meet or exceed expectations of customer on every job and do it legally and safely.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

Ouch I think I chipped my one toof


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

I got a call today about a tree that had been cut by the power company. Sensing the caller was price shopping I asked her how big and she said large pine. I told her clean-up would be 250 to 500 and she informed me she already had a bid at 150. I said well good luck and I hope they don't get injured , I'm really glad I didn't fall for a long drive out to look at it.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jun 30, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> You see, in many areas there is more than enough work for most tree companies - at least most good ones at this time of year. Most are working their tails off.
> 
> Although the odd tree companies around here do get work requests .. quote on them same day .. and do work same or next. Well, many times that typically shows a bubba at work.. as they are obviously hungry for work.. and doing it for likely next to nothing.
> 
> ...


 
That is a pretty good post,57. Still, I think it is a regional thing. We have competition but 75% of the time, we bid apples to apples. 
SoCal is in the early stages of compliance. You drive thru a city with signs that say 'Tree City', bull.
It is getting common place to only accept bids with cert. arb's and now TCIA Accredited and to be that you need to be a CTSP.
Like I said, regional. 
We sent a couple of guy's to Alabama to help a good friend of the owner. Sent two good climbers and I told them to send me pics, and they did.
They had pics that I would not post, Mike said," those guys never heard of PPE" . 
Anyway, it is who you market to and how you market.
Now I am hungry from saying market, bye.
Jeff (and only two beers!) :msp_w00t:


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> That is a pretty good post,57. Still, I think it is a regional thing. We have competition but 75% of the time, we bid apples to apples.
> SoCal is in the early stages of compliance. You drive thru a city with signs that say 'Tree City', bull.
> It is getting common place to only accept bids with cert. arb's and now TCIA Accredited and to be that you need to be a CTSP.
> Like I said, regional.
> ...


 
Well why wasn't your azz on a plane to tell bubba to put on his ppe?


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jun 30, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Ouch I think I chipped my one toof


 
DANG!
I hope is was not your last one!!!!!!!
Jeff :msp_ohmy:


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> DANG!
> I hope is was not your last one!!!!!!!
> Jeff :msp_ohmy:


 
Eup guess its time to get me some new chompers


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jun 30, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Well why wasn't your azz on a plane to tell bubba to put on his ppe?


 
Cause I don't wanna run into you 'Hillbilly's.
Jeff :jester:


----------



## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Cause I don't wanna run into you 'Hillbilly's.
> Jeff :jester:


 
Awww man have a heart bro, if you poke me with a knife do I not bleed? Hillbilly's are people too Jeff


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 1, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I hope is was not your last one!!!!!!!
> :msp_ohmy:


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 1, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> That is a pretty good post,57. Still, I think it is a regional thing. We have competition but 75% of the time, we bid apples to apples.
> SoCal is in the early stages of compliance. You drive thru a city with signs that say 'Tree City', bull.
> It is getting common place to only accept bids with cert. arb's and now TCIA Accredited and to be that you need to be a CTSP.
> Like I said, regional.
> ...



You are correct Jeff, it is regional.

We too are moving that way, and although the bylaws are in place in some areas we do not yet have full compliance. 

Although depending on region fines range from $1,000 per tree up to as high as $10,000 per tree cut without permit in some areas. And to cut a healthy tree requires a CA to fill out paperwork - not hiring a bubba for that.

Frankly sometimes they can go too far in legislation, but does put the work out of reach of bubba at that point.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jul 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> You are correct Jeff, it is regional.
> 
> We too are moving that way, and although the bylaws are in place in some areas we do not yet have full compliance.
> 
> ...


 
I so wish we had just even a little of that, open season here. I did however, get one of the cities to only hire CA's for contract work!

Rooster- I did read all your post, just cause you have ex amount of post, that does not mean anything, still a troll. The way I see it, if your so dead set on defending these guys, have your saw list, Remington and all, you are obviously one of them. Would love to see those finish cuts. It kills me when you guys get on here and say all this BS, then wonder why we jump on it, you are, after all, on ArboristSite, I dunno, could be a clue, but ignorance IS bliss


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 1, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> I so wish we had just even a little of that, open season here. I did however, get one of the cities to only hire CA's for contract work!



Well, according to the bylaws.. if it is a healthy tree. The homeowner can cut the tree themselves, as long as they have a CA do the work up front. Homeowner needs permit, but to obtain permit requires a CA to fill in the blanks. Some municipalities are beginning to understand the value of trees, and the need to have qualified professionals involved. Even if some homeowners are .. well frankly.. clueless in this area and could care less. 

Sometimes it is too far maybe.. but it is because of bubbas crap to a large degree that drives them in this direction. You see - it is difficult to get bubba to follow rules and get legitimate. But it is possible to fine the homeowner (or business) if they cut or cause harm to a tree without proper professional consultation. (they can also fine you intentionally for causing damage to a tree if they wish to do so)

But if homeowners would simply quit hiring bubba to do the work in the first place, then these rules would not need to be put in place. It is the simplistic attitude of some homeowners that will eventually bring many or most areas to this level of legislation.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Well, according to the bylaws.. if it is a healthy tree. The homeowner can cut the tree themselves, as long as they have a CA do the work up front. Homeowner needs permit, but to obtain permit requires a CA to fill in the blanks. Some municipalities are beginning to understand the value of trees, and the need to have qualified professionals involved. Even if some homeowners are .. well frankly.. clueless in this area and could care less.
> 
> Sometimes it is too far maybe.. but it is because of bubbas crap to a large degree that drives them in this direction. You see - it is difficult to get bubba to follow rules and get legitimate. But it is possible to fine the homeowner (or business) if they cut or cause harm to a tree without proper professional consultation. (they can also fine you intentionally for causing damage to a tree if they wish to do so)
> 
> But if homeowners would simply quit hiring bubba to do the work in the first place, then these rules would not need to be put in place. It is the simplistic attitude of some homeowners that will eventually bring many or most areas to this level of legislation.


 
Hmmmmmm yup dat too far lol, I have 40 acres and I don't need no one to tell me when and especially if I can cut a tree. I could get it for municipalities or public works etc. I understand its need and I would definitely be taking the test but this is the land of the free and anything jeopardizing that is not something I plan to support even if it would mean profits for myself.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 1, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Hmmmmmm yup dat too far lol, I have 40 acres and I don't need no one to tell me when and especially if I can cut a tree. I could get it for municipalities or public works etc. I understand its need and I would definitely be taking the test but this is the land of the free and anything jeopardizing that is not something I plan to support even if it would mean profits for myself.


 
Ah 40 acres !! Now you need a forestry management plan.. and that needs to be redone at your cost minimum of every 5 years. With work detailed in plan completed (at your cost I might add)..

Yep.. &*&#@ who support bubbas drive this. If they would wake up and simply hire professional, legitimate tree companies it would not get to this. 
If people would wake up, and hire the proper people to do the job, then they may not find themselves under tight controls. But because they continue with the simplistic mentality that they hire the lowest cost they can find.. they find themselves in his mess. And ultimately it not only forces them to hire legitimate tree companies, but to hire them at an even higher cost then they paid before. Because now the companies all need to have CA's and in some cases TCIA accreditation in place. Who pays for this.. the end users do. 

Also.. the municipalities can go around and order you to take a tree down if deemed dangerous. At your cost. In fact close by, we are just entering into where homeowners are being ordered to take down ash trees to control the emerald ash borer.

But how do the homeowners find them.. as bubbas hide as legitimate companies as well.. thin cover but fools many homeowners.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Ah 40 acres !! Now you need a forestry management plan.. and that needs to be redone at your cost minimum of every 5 years. With work detailed in plan completed (at your cost I might add)..
> 
> Yep.. &*&#@ who support bubbas drive this. If they would wake up and simply hire professional, legitimate tree companies it would not get to this.
> If people would wake up, and hire the proper people to do the job, then they may not find themselves under tight controls. But because they continue with the simplistic mentality that they hire the lowest cost they can find.. they find themselves in his mess. And ultimately it not only forces them to hire legitimate tree companies, but to hire them at an even higher cost then they paid before. Because now the companies all need to have CA's and in some cases TCIA accreditation in place. Who pays for this.. the end users do.
> ...


 The day some bureaucrat shows up telling me I can't cut my trees on my 40 acres that I pay taxes on, will be the day he better watch him step


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 1, 2011)

Im not a bubba. Ive never charged anyone a cent to drop a tee or split wood. I help my neighbors and family for free. Permits only needed for heritage oak removal. Certifications are not needed for tree removal. The tree is being removed, not prune or nurtured. You have some special chainsaw or wood cutting certification?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 1, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Certifications are not needed for tree removal. The tree is being removed, not prune or nurtured.



It may not be a need where you are; yet. But it is in many areas. The primary reason is they municipalities do NOT want anybody simply going around cutting down every tree that is standing. So.. they force you to get permits. And if tree is healthy, then you likley are not getting one. 

There are exceptions.
a) if you have a previously approved building permit - and tree needs to come down to erect building
b) tree is in some way a hazard - but CA is needed to determine that (or for hazard a city official can also do)
c) tree is damaged (still healthy otherwise but has damage - CA needs to access and determine if removal is necessary - but if you caused damage an did it intentionally - you can be fined
d) in cases as just implemented in Toronto - Ash trees do not need permits - for time being a temporary exception

The city leaders would ask, who are you? And what qualifications do you have to determine if the tree should be removed? And saying " it is only being removed.. not pruned or nutured" is not going to cut it. Because they want to know WHY it needs to be removed.. and it had better be a better reason than simply that you don't want it there any longer.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 1, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> and anyone with $11K can buy a used bucket truck. They have several available.


 

Let me guess... maybe I am all wet.

But buy a truck for $11K.

Spend oh maybe another $4 to 6K to get safety done.
Spend another $4K to get it to pass emission test.
Then another what $10-15K to get boom to pass inspection.

Are you telling me there are several trucks available that I would be able to drive home, get an e-test, safety and boom inspection done without spending a whole lot of extra cash? Maybe I am all wet.. but seems a bit unlikely to me. I have bought trucks for twice that and still had to pay another $6K to get on the road. Maybe just been unlucky.


----------



## OrangeRidge (Jul 1, 2011)

tree md said:


> ......... and lower every piece of a large pine and two medium hardwoods tomorrow ..



I assume that's the "felling only" fee , and there's more for cutting up and removal or chipping ?


----------



## tree md (Jul 1, 2011)

Actually, every tree was on the side of a mountain that backed up to the house. My lowering zone was a 5' embankment held up by a brick retainer wall. As I said earlier, I figured I was going to have to lower every piece to keep the logs from rolling off the retainer wall and onto the house. I lowered all the brush and made a barrier for the logs and bombed chunks instead of blocking them down. All trees had to be cut up and dragged up the side of the mountain 100' or so and stacked out of sight.

Took myself and 2 ground hands 7 hours.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> It may not be a need where you are; yet. But it is in many areas. The primary reason is they municipalities do NOT want anybody simply going around cutting down every tree that is standing. So.. they force you to get permits. And if tree is healthy, then you likley are not getting one.
> 
> There are exceptions.
> a) if you have a previously approved building permit - and tree needs to come down to erect building
> ...


 
Well thir I'm gonna use it for far wood


----------



## OrangeRidge (Jul 1, 2011)

tree md said:


> ...Took myself and 2 ground hands 7 hours....



That would be twice the price , or more , in Oz . 21 people hours ! I see what you
mean now :msp_ohmy:


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 1, 2011)

21 people hours ![/QUOTE]

Too funny!
Jeff


----------



## OrangeRidge (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah , yeah .....  Could be either gender , I was bein' PC


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Well thir I'm gonna use it for far wood


 
Well, you would not have any issue. In the mandatory forestry managment plan, there are always trees which need to come down for one reason or another. Part of forest management. 

It is the ones with one or two acres or less.. and want to cut down some of their few trees. It is not intended to eliminate cutting, simply ensure idiots do not cut for the sake of simply not wanting a tree. And in the city it does make sense to a large degree, as the houses are sold from one owner to the next, over time there would not hardly be a house left with a tree if homeowners were allowed to cut anything they wanted to.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> a reality check for some.



Really. When I was taught how to manage a business, I was under the impression that the amount charged was supposed to cover :
Insurance, telephone costs, vehicle maintenance, fuel, wages, taxes, any rental fees, loan fees if any, depreciation expenses and a small profit. (to name a few items - there are more)

Well.. if you truly ever ran a legitimate tree company and figured it out properly, you will find most of the guys in here are not too far adrift in their pricing. It is the ones who run illegally, do not pay their share to the government, have almost zero for equipment, no insurance and no workers comp that are creating the artificial perspective that a tree company can run for $100/hr (or less) and pay 3 men doing it. You see, regardless of what one is doing sizewise, there is a base hourly rate they do need to cover costs. I doubt these guys are becoming millionaires doing this.. in fact most tree companies (even at their outrageous rates) are not making huge dollars at end of the day.

Maybe you can enlighten us on how to purchase less costly equipment (which is just as good), lower our taxes or workers comp rates or insurance policies. Any useful information you have to lower our costs, I am sure most of us would be willing to pass along. Otherwise, if you have no idea on what a tree service is; what goes on behind the scenes and what it costs.. then please enlighten yourself before you go preaching to others telling us what we need to charge. I am sure there are lots of guys in here would share their costs with you personally if you have the skills and time to coach them to a lower cost base.

So.. in the end.. are they really charging too much!? Not according to what I learned in school. In fact the economy, and illegal workers out there have driven many of them to a level that is below where they should be textbook wise to run a proper business with their incurred costs.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jul 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Really. When I was taught how to manage a business, I was under the impression that the amount charged was supposed to cover :
> Insurance, telephone costs, vehicle maintenance, fuel, wages, taxes, any rental fees, loan fees if any, depreciation expenses and a small profit. (to name a few items - there are more)
> 
> Well.. if you truly ever ran a legitimate tree company and figured it out properly, you will find most of the guys in here are not too far adrift in their pricing. It is the ones who run illegally, do not pay their share to the government, have almost zero for equipment, no insurance and no workers comp that are creating the artificial perspective that a tree company can run for $100/hr (or less) and pay 3 men doing it. You see, regardless of what one is doing sizewise, there is a base hourly rate they do need to cover costs. I doubt these guys are becoming millionaires doing this.. in fact most tree companies (even at their outrageous rates) are not making huge dollars at end of the day.
> ...


 
Very well said,

I motion to nominate TreeClimber57 as the official spokesperson for the anti-troll movement. Any time we get one, he can squash them.


----------



## swyman (Jul 2, 2011)

Know a guy that is a township supervisor and was going to throw me a bone on a cemetary wind damage cleanup and let me see the other bids before I bid. I have a consultant that sometimes helps me with bidding that was in business for 20 years and has been out for 8. Said he would have bid it at around $5k. The 2 bids received were $2500, and $2100. The guy that is going to do the job is the groundskeeper that is doing it for the wood? There is a HUGE mess and all decent size stuff. He can have it!


----------



## tree md (Jul 2, 2011)

OrangeRidge said:


> That would be twice the price , or more , in Oz . 21 people hours ! I see what you
> mean now :msp_ohmy:


 
I originally bid this job for $1400 and came down to $900 to match the other yo yo's quote. Ah well, the HO was very pleased and told me she would tell everyone about me. Said she was going to refer me to her sister in law who was needing work done. She also told me I should become a member of service magic. Said she normally gets all of her bids from service magic members and she would recommend me highly. If I get another job out of it it will have been worth it.

I doubt I will do the service magic thing. I am already as busy as I really want to be.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 2, 2011)

tree md said:


> I originally bid this job for $1400 and came down to $900 to match the other yo yo's quote. Ah well, the HO was very pleased and told me she would tell everyone about me. Said she was going to refer me to her sister in law who was needing work done. She also told me I should become a member of service magic. Said she normally gets all of her bids from service magic members and she would recommend me highly. If I get another job out of it it will have been worth it.
> 
> I doubt I will do the service magic thing. I am already as busy as I really want to be.


 
I'm kinda like this with those kind of people...they are always going to refer you they claim for doing their job so cheap, and yeah, they usually do refer you...to another cheap SOB. That's the problem. And people that rely on service magic are only second in cheapness to tree service direct users which are the cheapest and most uninformed folks on Earth.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 2, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> I'm kinda like this with those kind of people...they are always going to refer you they claim for doing their job so cheap, and yeah, they usually do refer you...to another cheap SOB. That's the problem. And people that rely on service magic are only second in cheapness to tree service direct users which are the cheapest and most uninformed folks on Earth.


 
Don't forget Angies List. What a scam.
Jeff


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Well, you would not have any issue. In the mandatory forestry managment plan, there are always trees which need to come down for one reason or another. Part of forest management.
> 
> It is the ones with one or two acres or less.. and want to cut down some of their few trees. It is not intended to eliminate cutting, simply ensure idiots do not cut for the sake of simply not wanting a tree. And in the city it does make sense to a large degree, as the houses are sold from one owner to the next, over time there would not hardly be a house left with a tree if homeowners were allowed to cut anything they wanted to.


 
I am about to cut my hickory and de lean my pine. I am letting them grow too close together according to timber plans because; I'm growing them for telephone poles as it pays better lol. Its funny, I don't need a forester to tell me how to make habitat just leave the mast trees and remove the hickory leave any fruit trees and cherry,blackgum open some area up for my wild blackberries. I harvest four deer per year if I want to!


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 2, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> I'm kinda like this with those kind of people...they are always going to refer you they claim for doing their job so cheap, and yeah, they usually do refer you...to another cheap SOB. That's the problem. And people that rely on service magic are only second in cheapness to tree service direct users which are the cheapest and most uninformed folks on Earth.


 
Lol took me two calls to figure out service magic was magic for them only lol. I tried some stuff but now I hardly even advertize none of the full page bs just a listing!
I have had some success in the free newspaper not free for me but thrifty nickel and it mainly was stumps but it paid ok.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 2, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Don't forget Angies List. What a scam.
> Jeff


 
Yep. Angies List. That's another collection of Bozos.


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Let me guess... maybe I am all wet.
> 
> But buy a truck for $11K.
> 
> ...


 

Just telling you to look at the California Tree Equipment add at the top of this site. They have many trucks for sale. God knows Canada must have pretty weird property rights and mountains and mountains of regulations.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Just telling you to look at the California Tree Equipment add at the top of this site. They have many trucks for sale. God knows Canada must have pretty weird property rights and mountains and mountains of regulations.


 
You don't know enough about bucket trucks to try and talk about them.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Just telling you to look at the California Tree Equipment add at the top of this site. They have many trucks for sale. God knows Canada must have pretty weird property rights and mountains and mountains of regulations.


 
Not sure what this has to do with property rights. This is a commercial vehicle, and has to pass testing the same as any other commercial vehicle. 

So.. must pass a safety each and every year (and before you can plate it first time). Truck I brought in from US needed new tires, additional reflectors. Other than that pretty good safety wise. Tires were a good chunk of cost. Also spark plugs.. one cylinder has a bit of oil blowing by.. but still was ok on test once plugs were new and regular changed. They also must meed Cdn regulations.. typically additional reflectors, daytime driving lights (not on some US vehicles apparently), etc. If the US counterpart did not have what the Cdn one did when originally sold, then it must be brought up to the original Cdn specs. (this hits automobiles and small truck more so than larger vehciles)

Also must pass emission test.. many states do not do e-tests so no way of owner knowing. In last truck case failed idle test (that particular stated does not do e-testing); it was a bad fuel pressure regulartor. Once fixed it was ok. You see.. not mountains of regulations, just ensuring the vehicles are up to the original standards as set out by original manafactuer. Nothing beyond that.

For boom.. needs to have several tests done annually (they are all done at same time but several tests).. now this is not required to license. 
But if you miss this one workers comp will be all over you, same as in many states. But there are many guys who if working on their own with no workers comp simply skip this one. This is a boom integrity test, as well as electrical. Checks all welds under ultra-violet/x-ray .. does a computerized sound test of all components - listening via microphone and computer for improper sounds. Does weight test -- ensuring bucket can hold twice rated weight for one hour without any downward movement. Hydraulic pumps, hoses, pressure test, leak test, etc. And electrical testing for insulation of boom. Likely missed a lot here as I do not pretend to be an expert in this. Boom test is about $1k per year.. assuming all passes ok.

If boom fails test, it gets awfully expensive darn fast. I seriously doubt any truck for $10-11K is going pass a boom test.. period. 

Fact remains.. if you are buying a bucket truck for 10-11K.. then it is comparable to buying a similar aged automobile for maybe $500. The major difference being; you are putting your life or one of your guys at risk every time it goes up sixty feet in the air. 

Having said that.. all of the above is common practice in many states.. this is not unique to Canada. If you know much about heavy equipment, then I would suspect none of this is really new.

As for the California Tree Equipment.. did take a look. Pricing ranged from around $25K to $80K. Which is what I would expect them to be.. typically the lower cost ones are lower cost for a reason.. you do more to get them up to spec.. they have higher mileage, etc.. there is a reason tehy are lower cost. As for $11K.. if you could find one.. you would likely be in the $25K range at minimum by the time you got it on the road.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> You don't know enough about bucket trucks to try and talk about them.


 
+1


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 2, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> You don't know enough about bucket trucks to try and talk about them.


 
Lol there selling them cause they are junk lol. Mine is too but at least I know what I have it needs new cables, lower cylinder repacked, re chem glazed but I have worked with worse the cables are just getting old no frays but I don't like using them too long! It has a few other issues but none too scary yet. High rangers are fairly durable imo.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Not sure what this has to do with property rights. This is a commercial vehicle, and has to pass testing the same as any other commercial vehicle.
> 
> So.. must pass a safety each and every year (and before you can plate it first time). Truck I brought in from US needed new tires, additional reflectors. Other than that pretty good safety wise. Tires were a good chunk of cost. Also spark plugs.. one cylinder has a bit of oil blowing by.. but still was ok on test once plugs were new and regular changed. They also must meed Cdn regulations.. typically additional reflectors, daytime driving lights (not on some US vehicles apparently), etc. If the US counterpart did not have what the Cdn one did when originally sold, then it must be brought up to the original Cdn specs. (this hits automobiles and small truck more so than larger vehciles)
> 
> ...


 
I have done hy pot testing for electrical but I witnessed the weight test and to be honest I don't want them doing that to my boom I don't do anything putting that much stress on my boom and I don't want them too either. Its ridiculous I was more fearful after their test than before it!


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Not sure what this has to do with property rights. This is a commercial vehicle, and has to pass testing the same as any other commercial vehicle.
> 
> So.. must pass a safety each and every year (and before you can plate it first time). Truck I brought in from US needed new tires, additional reflectors. Other than that pretty good safety wise. Tires were a good chunk of cost. Also spark plugs.. one cylinder has a bit of oil blowing by.. but still was ok on test once plugs were new and regular changed. They also must meed Cdn regulations.. typically additional reflectors, daytime driving lights (not on some US vehicles apparently), etc. If the US counterpart did not have what the Cdn one did when originally sold, then it must be brought up to the original Cdn specs. (this hits automobiles and small truck more so than larger vehciles)
> 
> ...



I suggest you look again. They have about a dozen or so priced from $11k - $15k. Probably cost a couple thousand to refurbish the hydraulics etc... They're used after all. Don't know what must be done to use them commercially in Canada. Add says they run and are currently registered, some in California, some in Oregon. That's about all you need in the states, that and a business license. As I said earlier, anyone can rent these things. No special license is needed. As far as not knowing anything about bucket trucks, please tell me what's so special about them, the freaking lever that operates the bucket??? They drive any different than any other 6 -8 ton truck??? Get serious. You don't need a lot of training to operate one, just some common sense and an understanding of gravity. 

My statement about Canadian private property rights is in response to all the permits and city blessings one is reportedly supposed to get to cut trees on their own property. I can cut any tree on my property without asking anyones permission. They're my trees. Same goes for other citizens trees.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> I suggest you look again. They have about a dozen or so priced from $11k - $15k.



You are looking under Forestry Bucket Trucks I trust.



As in here: USED FORESTRY BUCKET TRUCKS IN CALIFORNIA



And I trust you do know the difference between a forestry truck and utility one.. Utility trucks are a dime a dozen.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> in response to all the permits and city blessings one is reportedly supposed to get to cut trees on their own property. I can cut any tree on my property without asking anyones permission. They're my trees. Same goes for other citizens trees.


 
Hey, this is not just Canadian. There are a lot of US areas which are going same way. And it is all (or for the most part) caused by folks who think they can cut when and where they want.

Now.. this is whole other discussion.. and I am not a lawyer. But do you really own the trees on your property? Or does the government simply not make an issue of it when you cut them. If so.. what are forestry rights. What about mineral rights. Or water rights. I am not certain either way, and for small property nobody makes much of an issue. But who really owns the resources on the land? And trees are natural resources.

Again I am not a lawyer; nor are many in here; so do not really expect an answer to above.

But think about it when you say the government has no right to control what you do to your property or trees on it. They may just surprise you one day. For now they are letting you get away with it.. some cities in the US are not quite so tolerant.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I have done hy pot testing for electrical but I witnessed the weight test and to be honest I don't want them doing that to my boom I don't do anything putting that much stress on my boom and I don't want them too either. Its ridiculous I was more fearful after their test than before it!



It is supposed to be the same test they do when truck/boom is new before it leaves factory. The truck/boom is supposed to be built to take what they do to it; assuming they are following the book on their testing. The booms actually will and are designed to handle a lot more then they rated working loads, they are simply testing as per factory testing and ensuring it is up to what it was originally designed to take.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Probably cost a couple thousand to refurbish the hydraulics etc...


 
Stop while you are ahead. You are making an assclown of yourself.


----------



## tree md (Jul 2, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> Stop while you are ahead. You are making an assclown of yourself.


 
No, by all means continue... I'm sure all of the seasoned treemen on this site are in awe of your business insight and knowledge of our business... I know I am. Please continue to share your knowledge and experience with us here in the pro forum... I am continually impressed with your words of wisdom...


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Probably cost a couple thousand to refurbish the hydraulics etc...



Hmm.. should really say simply .. no comment here.

Obvious you have never worked on or bought anything hydraulic. Depending on what they find, a couple of thousand might not cover the labor on the repair job. When it comes to hydraulics, nothing is low cost. Figure out what you think it might be or should be for cost.. multiply it times 5 or maybe 10.. and you may be close.


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 2, 2011)

The only reason I mentioned the cost of buying a bucket truck (utility was what I referenced, not forestry) was because someone mentioned all their costs associated with their business and how they have to bid to cover those costs. My point was it simply doesn't appear to be all that expensive to buy a bucket truck, saws, chipper, stump grinder etc... Maintaining them, if they're bought new shouldn't be all that much either. The whole thread here is about you "certified" tree guys being underbid by folks you deem unworthy. Lot of whiners here and more keep showing up and jumping on the "let's bash the rooster" team. I'm sure everyone here bashes "handymen" also. You simply don't need a certified electrician, plumber, dry wall hanger etc... to get the job done. As I stated before, you don't need to pay for a brain surgeon if you only have a schoolyard boo boo needing treatment. Most removals in my area are for 40' "yard" trees, not dangerous "hazard" trees that some of you are proud to have removed. 

My business savvy permitted me to retire comfortably at 47. I'll let that speak for itself. I have not told anyone how to run their business, or what to charge. I just suggested they quit whining about losing the small jobs to others who are trying to make ends meet. Some of you don't think anyone is qualified to cut down a tree. Wise up folks. A lot of people have been trimming trees and cutting them down since long before most of you got "certified". Want to learn how to prune properly? Go to the library, internet or nursery. It isn't that difficult. I've pruned a lot of fruit and nut trees in my day. Some of you have such poor business models that you need to make $700 per day just to stay afloat. That's $14,000 per month. You guys must have an awful lot of equipment, or you paid way way too much for it. Most tree laborer help in California, one of the most expensive places to live in the US, only make around $10 per hour. 

FYI, in California your property is listed on your deed. Any restrictions, such as mineral rights, are listed. Outside of living in a HOA, nobody in any government office can prevent you from doing anything to your land, as long as it is being done within the parameters of what the land is zoned for. I don't think many of us yanks would tolerate our personal property rights being taken from us.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> \Most removals in my area are for 40' "yard" trees, not dangerous "hazard" trees that some of you are proud to have removed.


 
For what it is worth, I try to not do small removals. Not saying I have not done any, but I typically do not go out of way to bid on them. I have had some people (many times friends) ask for price; and frankly I hate to do it. I have seen trees that I really hate to tell the person $300 to cut it down, and know on the other side it is not worth me having truck show up for anything less. Frankly for the small half hour or one hour jobs, I would rather somebody else do them.



roostersgt said:


> \I don't think many of us yanks would tolerate our personal property rights being taken from us.


 
Talk to Jeff. He is around. He is also in California. And I do think there are tree restrictions where he is located. They do exist in the US!! In fact Canada has copied most of their rules from US counterparts. Most of our politicians are not smart enough to think up this on their own.


----------



## mckeetree (Jul 2, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> The only reason I mentioned the cost of buying a bucket truck (utility was what I referenced, not forestry) was because someone mentioned all their costs associated with their business and how they have to bid to cover those costs. My point was it simply doesn't appear to be all that expensive to buy a bucket truck, saws, chipper, stump grinder etc... Maintaining them, if they're bought new shouldn't be all that much either. The whole thread here is about you "certified" tree guys being underbid by folks you deem unworthy. Lot of whiners here and more keep showing up and jumping on the "let's bash the rooster" team. I'm sure everyone here bashes "handymen" also. You simply don't need a certified electrician, plumber, dry wall hanger etc... to get the job done. As I stated before, you don't need to pay for a brain surgeon if you only have a schoolyard boo boo needing treatment. Most removals in my area are for 40' "yard" trees, not dangerous "hazard" trees that some of you are proud to have removed.
> 
> My business savvy permitted me to retire comfortably at 47. I'll let that speak for itself. I have not told anyone how to run their business, or what to charge. I just suggested they quit whining about losing the small jobs to others who are trying to make ends meet. Some of you don't think anyone is qualified to cut down a tree. Wise up folks. A lot of people have been trimming trees and cutting them down since long before most of you got "certified". Want to learn how to prune properly? Go to the library, internet or nursery. It isn't that difficult. I've pruned a lot of fruit and nut trees in my day. Some of you have such poor business models that you need to make $700 per day just to stay afloat. That's $14,000 per month. You guys must have an awful lot of equipment, or you paid way way too much for it. Most tree laborer help in California, one of the most expensive places to live in the US, only make around $10 per hour.
> 
> FYI, in California your property is listed on your deed. Any restrictions, such as mineral rights, are listed. Outside of living in a HOA, nobody in any government office can prevent you from doing anything to your land, as long as it is being done within the parameters of what the land is zoned for. I don't think many of us yanks would tolerate our personal property rights being taken from us.


 
I think that cements it. Rooster is a troll at best. He couldn't believe his own BS even if he tried. He just tries to stir folks up with his crap.


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 2, 2011)

You're kind of making my point for me. You're big enough and specialized enough that the average guy with a chain saw and truck is not going to bid on the jobs you are equipped to handle. It wouldn't be worth your time to set up for a drop and chip of a single simple tree. You can't waste your crews time on something that small. I get that. I'm guessing the guys whining about losing those jobs are bidding too high on the yard tree removals by Bubbas in pick-ups, who don't have a crew or overhead. 

I own properties in 3 different counties in California and none have any "tree" restrictions. I'm sure there are some local ordinances in some cities, especially for properties in "touristy" areas, regarding what type of tree may be planted, or removed. Carmel, Monterey and San Diego come to mind.


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 2, 2011)

mckeetree said:


> I think that cements it. Rooster is a troll at best. He couldn't believe his own BS even if he tried. He just tries to stir folks up with his crap.


 

You are one hard-headed Texan. What BS would you be referring to? Not trying to intentionally stir anything up. I'm just pointing out that some of you are very arrogant and unaware, or unwilling to accept that the economy has forced others to underbid you in your line of work. Reality check time. You can either lower your prices to compete or not bid on those small jobs. You just don't want to hear it.


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Jul 2, 2011)

I just can't believe you guys have wasted some 10 pages trying to convince this idiot. He doesn't have a clue and never will. His mind is already made up, don't confuse him with the facts. I suggest not responding to trolls like him. If we all ignore him, maybe he will leave this forum as well.
Rick


----------



## TreEmergencyB (Jul 2, 2011)

Id love to start my own but im not going out there with a pick up and a saw just not professional to start the way i want i need around 30k-50k and thats no bucket truck or crane, overhead is very high in tree work in PA we need to be covered for 1mil plus in liability insurance usually with a 1g deductible underbidding kills me to and im an employee


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> It is supposed to be the same test they do when truck/boom is new before it leaves factory. The truck/boom is supposed to be built to take what they do to it; assuming they are following the book on their testing. The booms actually will and are designed to handle a lot more then they rated working loads, they are simply testing as per factory testing and ensuring it is up to what it was originally designed to take.


 
Oh I know all that friend what I'm saying is, every time they put that much stress on it it will weaken it! If you have not seen the test you just can't imagine. I understand it is supposed to tell if the fiber is giving way but its bound too with their tests. I would not put that kind of load on my boom ever!


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 3, 2011)

Hey Rooster, You should fact check your answer's. Ever heard of a Torrey pine or a Blue Heron? I am gonna go back and read a few more post and probably respond.
Jeff


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 3, 2011)

What's your point? A rare tree that only grows in San Diego? So what?


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 3, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> What's your point? A rare tree that only grows in San Diego? So what?


 
Guess that my point comes from a professional background in this industry and you come off as a know it all. I got a lady in Point Loma that has a Blue Heron in her tree and it leaves really nasty messes in her yard ( they regurgitate), and on top of that she needs to have the tree dead wooded over her house. No way! Can't touch that tree and it is on her property, or she will get a massive fine.
I have been to court and dealt with Fish and Game, etc,,you are not being factual in your own egotistical reply.
Jeff


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 3, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Guess that my point comes from a professional background in this industry and you come off as a know it all. I got a lady in Point Loma that has a Blue Heron in her tree and it leaves really nasty messes in her yard ( they regurgitate), and on top of that she needs to have the tree dead wooded over her house. No way! Can't touch that tree and it is on her property, or she will get a massive fine.
> I have been to court and dealt with Fish and Game, etc,,you are not being factual in your own egotistical reply.
> Jeff


 
Never claimed to know about the few rare trees you can't cut down without a permit. Heritage Oaks are the only ones you have to get a permit for in Northern Cali. Previous tree guy was saying the government had to approve most, if not all tree removals. I merely stated that is not the case in the US. Rare trees are few and far between. That's why they're called "rare" and why a permit must be obtained. A Bubba gets sued, or fined for sawing down one of them trees, why should you care?


----------



## tree md (Jul 3, 2011)

Really, the point is you have stumbled into the professional forum where no one is impressed with your rebuilt 290's and Remington pole pruner (laughable really). And no one cares what your business was before or when you retired. Your not going to tell anyone in here how to run their business or what to charge. You have no clue and that is glaringly apparent to anyone who makes a living in this industry. You are in fact a laughing stock here... Now run along to the chainsaw forum and impress those guys with your prowess at fixing old farm boss chainsaws...


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 3, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Never claimed to know about the few rare trees you can't cut down without a permit. Heritage Oaks are the only ones you have to get a permit for in Northern Cali. Previous tree guy was saying the government had to approve most, if not all tree removals. I merely stated that is not the case in the US. Rare trees are few and far between. That's why they're called "rare" and why a permit must be obtained. A Bubba gets sued, or fined for sawing down one of them trees, why should you care?


 
I am am tired of you, idiot! Sometimes it is not the tree but what lives in the tree. I am a professional and you sound like a hack or troll or both! You are now on 'ignore!'.
Jeff


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 3, 2011)

Not trying to impress some of the whining sniveling and arrogant tree guys here, just trying to get them to stop and realize that others (non-certified) are trying to make a living too. Some of you are the most arrogant and elitist people I've ever interacted with. I've had to choke back tears of laughter at the over-inflated sense of self-worth some of you have of yourself and occupation. It's off the hook. Nothing wrong with taking pride in what you do, but good grief, it's tree work! Some of you think you're so special and the job so difficult nobody but you with your certification can do it. Maybe so, for thr truly involved jobs, but the Bubbas out there are not doing those ones.

Read the dang thread title.

Been to court and dealt with fish and game huh? Guess you didn't know much about your profession and got into some trouble with the law. Plus, you resorted to name calling BS just like a few others. Sad.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am am tired of you, idiot! Sometimes it is not the tree but what lives in the tree. I am a professional and you sound like a hack or troll or both! You are now on 'ignore!'.
> Jeff


 
I know what Id do lol pull :jawdrop:


----------



## tree md (Jul 3, 2011)

:notrolls2:


----------



## roostersgt (Jul 3, 2011)

I'll leave and let you guys get back to your self-pity fest. Go on now, start back conversing about how much more you know, how much more you're worth than the Bubbas who got the jobs you wanted. God forbid you be competetive. Just sit back on the computer and banter back and forth all day and night while your trucks, chipper and crew sit idle. You must relish killing the messenger, instead of learning something from someone with no dog in the race and a differing opinion. Chao.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2011)

So trees are reaching permanent wilting point does bubba recommend irrigating the crap outta them, cutting them down as they will die for sure or toppng them to prevent limbs falling? 



I would go with minimum irrigation and monitoring soil moisture and see if leaf regains turgidity Also: mulch to help keep damaged absorbing roots moist.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2011)

Trees near recent construction appear stressed what does bubba recommend? What is likely the problem? What can be done for improper construction creating compacted soil? Do we just go with bubbas idea?


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Trees near recent construction appear stressed what does bubba recommend? What is likely the problem? What can be done for improper construction creating compacted soil? Do we just go with bubbas idea?


 
How many bubbas impact tree health each day?


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> How many bubbas impact tree health each day?


 
What effect does bubba have on the urban environment? Do trees filter pollution? Do trees cool the surroundings and enrich our air? How many bubbas does it take to ruin the ecosystem?


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2011)

Lol so bubba sees a carpenter ant crawl into a tree what does he tell the owner? The tree is doomed and must be cut? 





I bet he would not tell them this!



Carpenter ants nest in trees in one of two situations: 1) in rotted, decayed wood or 2) in the center heartwood section of the tree. In neither case are they harmful to the tree. Control is unnecessary for the tree's health, as the ants are taking advantage of preexisting soft, weak wood to establish their colony. Insects, disease, or environmental conditions such as drought are often responsible for weakening and killing limbs or sections of trees. This allows wood rot to set in, which results in wood decay, giving carpenter ants the opportunity to colonize the tree. Carpenter ants use knots, cracks, holes, and old insect tunnels to gain access to these areas.

Control of carpenter ants in trees is warranted if there are indications that ants are entering homes from colonies in trees. If there is evidence of this, the best control is to bait the colony.


----------



## tree md (Jul 3, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> I'll leave and let you guys get back to your self-pity fest. Go on now, start back conversing about how much more you know, how much more you're worth than the Bubbas who got the jobs you wanted. God forbid you be competetive. Just sit back on the computer and banter back and forth all day and night while your trucks, chipper and crew sit idle. You must relish killing the messenger, instead of learning something from someone with no dog in the race and a differing opinion. Chao.


 
Now who sounds arrogant and like a know it all? 

And I don't remember anyone asking you for advice or an opinion... Neither do I remember anyone saying anything about sitting idle or loosing a job to a hack. I got this one remember... Albeit at the hack price. And if we're not doing enough work for you over the Holiday I beg your pardon. I'm quite sure I made more money in 4 days than you did all week... Likely all month. I ended up doing about 2/3rds of what i did in the first half of my week in the second half after doing another job and collecting payment from a previous insurance job.

I think I'll make it without your little nuggets of wisdom...


----------



## no tree to big (Jul 3, 2011)

roostersgt said:


> Not trying to impress some of the whining sniveling and arrogant tree guys here, just trying to get them to stop and realize that others (non-certified) are trying to make a living too. Some of you are the most arrogant and elitist people I've ever interacted with. I've had to choke back tears of laughter at the over-inflated sense of self-worth some of you have of yourself and occupation. It's off the hook. Nothing wrong with taking pride in what you do, but good grief, it's tree work! Some of you think you're so special and the job so difficult nobody but you with your certification can do it. Maybe so, for thr truly involved jobs, but the Bubbas out there are not doing those ones.
> 
> Read the dang thread title.
> 
> Been to court and dealt with fish and game huh? Guess you didn't know much about your profession and got into some trouble with the law. Plus, you resorted to name calling BS just like a few others. Sad.


 you kind of are like those jehovah witness's that go door to door just annoying .

hey buddy how bout this you can come and run with my crew for a week we pull in over a million a year, on this crew 
alone, see how not technical are profession is!!! we do some of the biggest takedowns in the area but you know what sometimes we dont have any huge trees to fill an entire week or a full day so we NEED some of those small trees to fill the void see how happy your employees are when they only work 4 days a week or work 6 hours a day... 

and no bubas cant do easy little trees without risk either my buddy had a guy with a saw and a pickup come out to take down a small tree it had a little tiny back lean nothing you couldn't wedge over but this guy didn't know what a wedge was what happened? tree went backwards took out the "white picket" fence and hit the neighbors shed nope no insurance but dont worry he got his monies worth... and I got a weekend project out of it clean up said tree build a new section of fence and repair a shed roof all in all a good days work 

the guy did have a nice saw though and I mean did have a nice saw it was taken as partial payment of damage as my buddy proceded to kick this guy in the ass as he was running to the truck, musta been something to see

700 a day for over head hahaha those numbers wouldn't even cover the fuel costs for our company a day


----------



## Rftreeman (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell a bubbas is..........


----------



## 046 (Jul 3, 2011)

unbelievable thread!!!! 

someone with no background in tree work trying to give out advice to folks making a living at it. then being surprised when everyone calls BS...


----------



## Rftreeman (Jul 3, 2011)

046 said:


> unbelievable thread!!!!
> 
> someone with no background in tree work trying to give out advice to folks making a living at it. then being surprised when everyone calls BS...


and some just keep taking the bait............


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jul 4, 2011)

Your right RF we do! But it is fun.
The truth is, he probably is someones ex-employee who couldn't hack it, made fun of by the boys and left with hurt feelings, showed up on the job with his pole saw and was laughed outa the shop, this is his way of getting us back! OR like I said before, he is one of the very people we all talk about, bubba, troll, hacker. Its all the same thing, except know we have a word to describe it, ROOSTER!

Im going to look up a Air Conditioning forum, I fixed my own AC, so I feel that licensed HVAC guys are overrated, gunna letem know.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 4, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Im going to look up a Air Conditioning forum, I fixed my own AC, so I feel that licensed HVAC guys are overrated, gunna letem know.


 

Last I checked was not too complicated. Had to know how to maybe flare some tubing, pressurize the system. Oh need something for that I guess.. but you can likely rent it. Electrical stuff on it can't be that difficult, couple of wires up to thermostat.. maybe a electrical wire to outside compresser unit.. 

Gee maybe I should put a sign out this afternoon advertising, bet I have what it takes. Wonder how to charge though.. how much is that stuff worth. Only need a pair of pliers a couple of wrenches.. pretty simple stuff.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 4, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Last I checked was not too complicated. Had to know how to maybe flare some tubing, pressurize the system. Oh need something for that I guess.. but you can likely rent it. Electrical stuff on it can't be that difficult, couple of wires up to thermostat.. maybe a electrical wire to outside compresser unit..
> 
> Gee maybe I should put a sign out this afternoon advertising, bet I have what it takes. Wonder how to charge though.. how much is that stuff worth. Only need a pair of pliers a couple of wrenches.. pretty simple stuff.


 
Yup I just fixed mine I took down a small tree and bought a new Frigidaire, why bother fixing they only cost 550 lol


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 4, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what the hell a bubbas is..........


 
Is that you bubba?:monkey:


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jul 5, 2011)

Bubba is as bubba does


sorry, had too!


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 5, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Bubba is as bubba does
> 
> 
> sorry, had too!


 
Don't be bullchittin bubba, bubba:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jul 5, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup I just fixed mine I took down a small tree and bought a new Frigidaire, why bother fixing they only cost 550 lol


 
Well done!!

The point I guess that the rooster was making, is some tree work is within the hands of homeowners or bubbas. And, that I will agree is possible.. for SOME homeowners.

Having said that, electrical work, plumbing, gas fitting, air conditioning, framing, etc.. is all within the same realm. 

Oh you gotta learn some code for electrical, plumbing or gas fitting.. but (personally I know from the electrical side) the code is actually easier to master for most than obtaining a CA from ISA. Yes you gotta study, and have a bit of a brain on your shoulders, but no different than any other profession.

As far as the actual work though.. tree work is likley more dangerous than any one of the trades above listed. Ok, so electrical or gas fitting can be dangerous. But it is all about knowing the dangers, and working safely. Same as tree work.

Point being, anybody that thinks a homeowner can do tree work safely, is no further off base than saying a homeowner can safely do electrical, gas fitting, plumbing, etc.

And, maybe SOME homeowners can.. if they have some knowledge/training in the area and can do it safely. Same goes for bubbas I guess.

But.. IF somebody is going to do it and charge.. at least :
a) learn how to do it safely
b) pay Workers Comp and Insurance
c) charge what the job is worth!

Then, maybe then, they might get a bit of respect and the homeowner gets something worthwhile for what they pay for. Will then be more costly, likely so. But then again would that same homeowner hire bubba to do electrical, gas, plumbing? Why not.. and what is difference?


----------



## Rftreeman (Jul 5, 2011)

I think I figured it out.............





y'all kiss my bubbas..........


----------



## 046 (Jul 6, 2011)

difference at least in Oklahoma is ... to legally do HVAC, Electrical and Plumbing work. One has to be licensed by State of Oklahoma. exception is the home owner is allowed to legally do his own property, but cannot do work for others without a license. 

to get licensed on must go to trade school then apprentice (slave wages) for 3 years. then pass state journeyman tests. most adults cannot live on $10hr while doing their 3 yrs of apprentice duties. so this limits field to kids getting out of school. 

this means above trades are protected, so typical charge is $100hr+



TreeClimber57 said:


> Then, maybe then, they might get a bit of respect and the homeowner gets something worthwhile for what they pay for. Will then be more costly, likely so. But then again would that same homeowner hire bubba to do electrical, gas, plumbing? Why not.. and what is difference?


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 6, 2011)

*Bubba's*

Bubba's.View attachment 189764


----------



## Rftreeman (Jul 6, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Bubba's.View attachment 189764


now where in the hell did you find that picture of me and my brother Tyrone..........



you know, Tyrone, he's the white one......


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jul 6, 2011)

I tried to embed it but f-ed up. 
Jeff


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 7, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I tried to embed it but f-ed up.
> Jeff


 
HE HE HE


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jul 7, 2011)

Looks like we took care of that!


----------



## 046 (Jul 7, 2011)

here's a quick and dirty way to embed pictures found on other websites. 
it bleeds off bandwidth without benefit to host, so some major forums will not allow it. 

anyways... here's how: 

1. find a pic you like
2. right click, mouse pointer inside picture. pick save image location
3. then paste in desired location, then post/save to AS or other forum
4. then edit tag to img




note to see tags, click on quote, as tags will be hidden



jefflovstrom said:


> I tried to embed it but f-ed up.
> Jeff


----------



## Rftreeman (Jul 7, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> HE HE HE


now that's f-ed up right there, some would die of starvation right there in their car......lol...


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Jul 7, 2011)

Can't turn left or right ( signs 1 and 2 ) , can't turn around and go back on the correct side of the road ( sign 3 ), can't go straight ahead ( sign 4 )..........only solution.....back up on the same side you drove in on. Problem solved !
Rick


----------

