# I want to take a big part out of this tree. Is my thinking correct?



## Goose IBEW (Jul 25, 2014)

I have a large stem coming out of the dominant stem of an oak. I want to remove this stem and let the trunk regain its dominance. The stem is protruding towards a pool and in general it is my understanding that this is the correct thing to do. There is one more small branch off of the main trunk that protrudes close to a holly as well that I want to remove. The tree appears very healthy otherwise and my gut feeling tells me that it can handle this major prune come winter time. Is my thought pattern correct here? Thanks in advance.


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## Zale (Jul 25, 2014)

Tree is way past that type of corrective pruning. Consider cable system and reducing weight of leaning part.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2014)

I disagree. Feel free to remove that lead and the other minor limb on the main trunk. Just be sure to not cut the offending lead too close to the trunk. The existing root structure will only help to pump nutrients into the new, remaining structure of the tree. Just be sure to do it (like you said) in the dormant (winter) time of the season.


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## Zale (Jul 25, 2014)

MasterBlaster said:


> I disagree. Feel free to remove that lead and the other minor limb on the main trunk. Just be sure to not cut the offending lead too close to the trunk. The existing root structure will only help to pump nutrients into the new, remaining structure of the tree. Just be sure to do it (like you said) in the dormant (winter) time of the season.



That would have been sound advice 30 yeas ago but our understanding of tree biology and how a tree reacts to drastic pruning has changed. It would be very unlikely the tree would be able to compartmentalize such a large area.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2014)

You'd be surprised, brother. I speak from experience, more than once.

Remember, I'm 70 years old, lol.


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 25, 2014)

The size of the cut is concerning to me added to the fact there is not a good collar to guide you. The inclusion bark of a codominant stem is more apparant than a branch collar.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2014)

I'd leave at least 8" to 10" past the collar.


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## Zale (Jul 25, 2014)

MasterBlaster said:


> You'd be surprised, brother. I speak from experience, more than once.
> 
> Remember, I'm 70 years old, lol.



I'm not surprised by your advice and I'm not your brother. Age and wisdom do not go hand in hand.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 25, 2014)

Sorry. I don't do the hating thing.


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## Zale (Jul 25, 2014)

Its not hating. The advice you are giving is outdated. Read anything written by Ed Gilman and others in the last 10-15 years.


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## IcePick (Jul 26, 2014)

This is what I'm talking about. It's a waste of anyone's time to come into these arborist forums looking for sound advice, right BROTHER?


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 26, 2014)

You shouldn't remove that secondary stem right now, it's too big and the tree wouldn't be able to compartmentalize it. What I would do is reduce the growing capability of the stem you want removed by subordinating it and thinning that stem by about 25-30%. Wait about 5 years and thin it again. After about the 3rd pruning cycle, the stem will now be small enough in relation to the dominant stem for it to be removed. You don't want to remove a subordinate stem or branch that is greater than a third the size of the retained stem. This strategy is based on Ed Gilman's book.


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## IcePick (Jul 26, 2014)

BC WetCoast said:


> You shouldn't remove that secondary stem right now, it's too big and the tree wouldn't be able to compartmentalize it. What I would do is reduce the growing capability of the stem you want removed by subordinating it and thinning that stem by about 25-30%. Wait about 5 years and thin it again. After about the 3rd pruning cycle, the stem will now be small enough in relation to the dominant stem for it to be removed. You don't want to remove a subordinate stem or branch that is greater than a third the size of the retained stem. This strategy is based on Ed Gilman's book.


Agreed.


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## sac-climber (Jul 26, 2014)

Let it be......that tree is doing its thing. Why ruin it?!


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## Zale (Jul 26, 2014)

IcePick said:


> This is what I'm talking about. It's a waste of anyone's time to come into these arborist forums looking for sound advice, right BROTHER?



Again, not your brother and my advice was sound. I was trying to point out the information MasterBlaster was giving was outdated.


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## Toddppm (Jul 27, 2014)

I think he was agreeing with you bro?


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## Zale (Jul 27, 2014)

He might have been agreeing with me but I don't think he cared for the tone in which I criticized MB.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 27, 2014)

MasterBlaster said:


> I'd leave at least 8" to 10" past the collar.


I'd listen to this guy. In _this_ case, don't worry about compartmentalizm.


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## Zale (Jul 27, 2014)

Don't believe him. He's living in the past.


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## ArtB (Jul 27, 2014)

Heck, I'm 69 YO and, if that limb was endangering any person or structure, would hack that limb off about 4" out and paint it over with cold process asphalt.

Guess us old farts don't hae the right books. <G>


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 27, 2014)

These youngsters, nowadays...


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 27, 2014)

This tree is on my own property. The co dominant stem puts massive amounts of shade onto my pool in the afternoon hours. My girl and I have been here for 2 years now and just spent a good amount of money having a new liner put in our 20x40 in ground pool so this area has become a focal point. I am perfectly able to trim a good portion off of the co dominant stem and get the desired effect that I am looking for. I asked the question based on an educational stand point as I am lacking in this department. I conclude that I could most likely cut the whole stem off and get away with it despite it not being a recommended practice in this day and age. I am going to do a major prune on the secondary stem and prune the branch away from the holly tree on the primary stem for 3 reasons. #1; it will get me the desired effect of exposing the sun to the pool. #2; I think the cut will be so big that it will detract from the overall look of the tree (if I take the whole stem off). #3; This is on my property and I will get to see first hand the product of abiding by modern guidelines.

I am not in any way dismissing what the older generation states as well. I am quite confident that considering the overall health of this tree, it would survive losing the secondary stem. Shoot, its close enough to the pool and there are enough trees surrounding it to warrant removing it. The health of it makes me want to take care of it more than seeing its demise.

I have a beautiful yard of 7 acres, amazing old growth oak, for this area at least. I am thinking about starting a thread just to post pics and question about the trees on my property. I could consolidate all of my questions to one thread and post pics of the work I do and document the long term effects. Hmm....


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## Zale (Jul 27, 2014)

No, you don't.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 27, 2014)

If you take that off you seal the death warrant on that tree ....


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 27, 2014)

Says the 16 year old potty mouth.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 27, 2014)

You are a moron blaster you may be "able" to do it that doesn't mean you should , the trunk will decay at that cut and probably the root flair on that side that poor tree is way beyond your butchering expertise , your wrong but to dumb to know better


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## woodchuck357 (Jul 27, 2014)

I guess I'm one of the old farts, but in my mind I'm still going on 16. Trim a bunch off the leaning stem, and cable it. Try to remove the longest limbs coming off the lean side of the stem, that will reduce the side pull the most.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 27, 2014)

That junction has a nice U shape to it. I don't think it needs a cable. Thinning and subordinating of the secondary stem will be enough.


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 29, 2014)

Took a couple branches out yesterday, its going to look good keeping the 2nd stem.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 30, 2014)

Looks good so far. Just don't remove the lower branches, you want to take weight out of the top of the stem.

My suggestions from what I can see:
- lower branch heading to right - thin tips by 20%. 
- main branch junction straight up from the fireplace 1/3 from top - subordinate the tallest branch and thin the rest

You don't want to lion tale (strip all the small branches except for a tuft at the end). Growth hormones focus on areas around the leaves, so if you lions tale a branch, it grows in diameter only near the leaves giving you a long skinny branch which is more susceptible to breakage. If there is foliage along the length of the branch, you will end up with a branch that has more taper and is stronger. 

A clear example of this concept is comparing an open growing conifer with branching to to the ground, usually has a large taper to it, whereas a tree growing in a dense forest only has foliage in the top 10% of the tree but has a long straight stem with little taper.

As I mentioned before, in about 5 years, I would reduce this stem further. Ultimately (after several 5 year pruning cycles), due to the foliage reduction (loss of growing capacity) the stem will reduce in size IN RELATION to the main stem. Once the stem becomes 1/4-1/3 the diameter of the mainstem, it could be removed.

In you case, you probably won't be alive/live in that house that long, so I think reducing it will be sufficient.

Where the branch initiates in the tree, there is differentiation between the branch wood and the trunk wood. There is a certain amount of compartmentalization around the branch wood or else any dead rotten branch would lead to trunk decay, which it obviously doesn't.


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

Some of the limbs on my property spread over 60 away from the trunk. I have high tie in points but still am not the most comfortable at limb walking out to the tips. I think I'm going to order a 2nd rope and maybe set 2 before I go up to work a limb. Once I'm up there I can use the 2nd rope to help stabilize me. I just have this image in my head of losing my footing and slamming back into the trunk, lol.....or maybe not lol! I need to employ re directs is what I'm getting at.


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## Zale (Jul 30, 2014)

Nice job. +1 on the above advice. Glad to see you ignored the advice from the Dark Side.


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## Raintree (Jul 30, 2014)




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## BC WetCoast (Jul 30, 2014)

Goose IBEW said:


> Some of the limbs on my property spread over 60 away from the trunk. I have high tie in points but still am not the most comfortable at limb walking out to the tips. I think I'm going to order a 2nd rope and maybe set 2 before I go up to work a limb. Once I'm up there I can use the 2nd rope to help stabilize me. I just have this image in my head of losing my footing and slamming back into the trunk, lol.....or maybe not lol! I need to employ re directs is what I'm getting at.




If you tie in with your lanyard as well as your climbing line when you limb walk, you won't slam back into the tree.


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

I have been tying in with my lanyard. Tomorrow I will try using the tail side of my climbing line as a redirect. This has me thinking about setting up a chalk box with some throwline and carrying a throw bag up with me.

Thanks very much for the good information provided. You guys spill more good information and knowledge than you realize. 

This is not my first post here, LOL. I have found that IF you ask smart questions with a little humility, you will get some good feedback. If you then go on to show that you have put that information to good use, you will be rewarded with even more insight and knowledge. I am plenty used to weeding out the nonsense and thankfully have enough of a head on my shoulders to do things the best way possible. Thanks again everybody, I will have more pics of progress and the final product in days to come. 

Oh yeah, that pool was installed in 1974. Did you notice that stump by the concrete's edge? The flare had grown right around the concrete, pretty cool. That tree was severely stressed, a year or two from being fully dead, close to the house and the pool. It had to go last summer.

Thanks again AS.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 30, 2014)

How does one tie in with a lanyard and limbwalk at the same time? I've made many limbwalks; never with a lanyard.


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

I get to where I'm going, then tie in....


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 30, 2014)

Goose IBEW said:


> I get to where I'm going, then tie in....


Ya your more then welcome to come hang with us .... You will walking out of the side of a tree in no time .


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

I will give you a call!


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 30, 2014)

Goose IBEW said:


> I will give you a call!


I will even help you if you let me swim In the pool and drink your beer


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

I'm not sure what a 22 year old pottymouth punk has to offer but I'm up for a good time......


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 30, 2014)

Goose IBEW said:


> I'm not sure what a 22 year old pottymouth punk has to offer but I'm up for a good time......


LOL you know I am all over that .


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 30, 2014)

He's been real good on that pottymouth stuff here, lately. I commend him!


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

Can't help myself sometimes, lol.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 30, 2014)

Goose IBEW said:


> Can't help myself sometimes, lol.


Maybe we can get some strippers and light another car on fire ... Sounds fun right


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

That's only on Thursdays. We need to wrangle another big brown bear and drop it down onto unsuspecting pedestrians and motorists.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 30, 2014)

We already tried that at the high school remember that ? Remember laughing about that .... I was scared .. Well kinda


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

Remember, I'm choking on my dinner still laughing, lol.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 30, 2014)

I saw your GMC the other day , I got all excited raced up along side of it flipping the bird and making obscene mouth gestures ....... And oh drab it wasn't you !!!! Briefly felt like an ass . Like until Joe was like I don't think that guys knows you ..


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## Goose IBEW (Jul 30, 2014)

I would have died to see the WTF look on the new owners face, lol. I picked up a 33k International, still need to make a new enclosure for it.


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## Goose IBEW (Aug 6, 2014)

Did some cleanup today. I'm not 100% done but got tired of looking at the mess on the ground. Took a b&w pic of the equipment as it seemed era appropiate.


























I left the chimnea in place and dropped branches on either side of the holly tree and smack between the chimnea and what looks like some kind of Chinese maple possibly......?? I did rig a couple that were over top of said Chinese maple. The yard is massive and is looking pretty damn good. I'm ready for a swim and some beer!


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## Zale (Aug 6, 2014)

Nice job. It's a japanese maple, FYI.


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## Goose IBEW (Aug 7, 2014)

Thanks for the identification. I was in the right ballpark, lol. I really haven't done much to the Japanese maple, just a really cool tree to accent the area with.


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 7, 2014)

Those japanese maples don't like to be over pruned. I find the trunks are the most aesthetic part and look really good with a spot light shining up from the base. If you are going to prune them, make sure to cut back to a significant lateral or they will watersprout like crazy and get a puff ball look about them.


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## Goose IBEW (Aug 9, 2014)

I have only taken off one very small branch back to a lateral. It is a very nice looking tree pretty much as it sits.


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## pbtree (Aug 9, 2014)

BC WetCoast said:


> You shouldn't remove that secondary stem right now, it's too big and the tree wouldn't be able to compartmentalize it. What I would do is reduce the growing capability of the stem you want removed by subordinating it and thinning that stem by about 25-30%. Wait about 5 years and thin it again. After about the 3rd pruning cycle, the stem will now be small enough in relation to the dominant stem for it to be removed. You don't want to remove a subordinate stem or branch that is greater than a third the size of the retained stem. This strategy is based on Ed Gilman's book.



Agreed!


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