# how many climbers wear a chest harness or top croll? ?



## tramp bushler (Aug 3, 2012)

Does anyone wear these regularly, are they a fad or for fat old guys like me? ? Seems it would give the ABS a break on a big tree. 
I mean attached to a saddle?


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## imagineero (Aug 3, 2012)

If I'm reading you right, then you may have the wrong idea. From what I understand, you climb on a traditional system with a hitch? Chest harnesses are pretty much used for SRT style climbing. They don't actually carry any weight, but they give you an attachment point for an ascender so that as you stand up the ascender self advances. Lots of guys just use a bit of webbing or similar for this purpose. Jump on youtube and take a look at a few SRT styles, search 'rope walker, texas rope walker, frog SRT, frog walker, and RADS'. Should give you a few ideas.

If you're on a traditional hitch style climber then your best bet is some kind of hitch tender on your curent hitch, and a foot ascender to make life easy when you can't spike.

Shaun


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## tramp bushler (Aug 3, 2012)

OK. . This is why it would be good for me t go to a school or seminar. . But you gu




ys really help and I appreciate it. A pic is worth 1k words so.



.taking down a Sitka Spruce.



..I did double up on my flip lines on Wednesday



.here's some more. .
.



.


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## Soilarch (Aug 3, 2012)

I have even more confusion after posting the pics of the spruce removal. 

A harness/chest-strap/Croll or any other setup using a "chest ascender" really only makes sense (to me) with a SRT ascent. If you are wondering if it would help alleviate some ab-strain during removals I think you'll be disappointed. I'm not even sure how you'd rig it up to be of use anytime you're wearing spikes..and my guess it that it would kill your lower back if you used it as basically a really high bridge on your harness. 

In reality, even on SRT ascents it lets you lean back and sit "deeper" into your harness for rest breaks but to me it seems to transfer the strain to my upper back and neck. It all becomes a wash in regards to energy conservation. It saves a TON of energy in the sense that you don't climb 14" up just to lose 3-4" with each "setback". You get to keep every inch of advancement up the line. 

I'm really really new to this stuff but I can't see a chest ascender being any good other than an SRT ascent...it is worth every dollar and ounce when used in that situation. 

I don't think they are fad or for fat guys, but I think they are yet another "one trick pony" tool.


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## Grace Tree (Aug 3, 2012)

If you just need to get a load off to relieve leg strain ditch the belt and use a climber's saddle with a bridge. Set up a line choked around the trunk as your second tie in. You can choke in close and hang from it off the bridge a bit to give your legs a break. It looks like you're just blowing the tops off and don't have to worry about it getting crowded with blocks and slings around your tie in.
Phil


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Aug 3, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Does anyone wear these regularly, are they a fad or for fat old guys like me? ? Seems it would give the ABS a break on a big tree.
> I mean attached to a saddle?



TB, I dont and dont think anybody does on here.......ok, mabey someone does, but..

A good saddle is your best bet and get some suspender's that hook to your saddle, since your a BIG guy, they will keep your saddle from falling down when climbing with a heavy saw.

Looks like in your first pic things got a little hairy....take up some small wedges and small sledge hammer for more precise felling when in the tops or dropping big sections.


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## Treepedo (Aug 3, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Does anyone wear these regularly, are they a fad or for fat old guys like me? ? Seems it would give the ABS a break on a big tree.
> I mean attached to a saddle?



Here's one.
I have the Buckingham Y-harness with croll on my present harness the Skylotec 
for Srt of course plus e the way it holds when I need a steady position and the slack in my drt or srt system is to much than I croll in.
It is also like having a third monkey grip to hold tail of rigging rope, slings or quick way to get out oout on a limb or traverse leaders and trees with a second life line.
Can I make do with out it.? I would miss it terribley. Its like a lil buddy that is always there at your sternum to give you a helping hand. 
Plus if I ever had to be rescued there is an option for the rescuer to clip to sternal or dorsal ring 
When i use it I am thankful it is there and when it is not there I am cursing myself.
I ahve adapted mine for offf and on in a couple minutes so if I feel its not necessary it can come off. 
Other thing I like about it is drop the harness over my head and shoulder strap keeps em up till i do the leg straps up and then the waist belt. Keeps the harness up with a big saw on.
ANd most can easilyy be adjusted for your fit and feel.
I like that i can spur back up the spar with the croll as a backup to the lanyard
Drawbacks are It will pull along the shoulders and neck when the line of pull starts to drop below the head and hot days its black and more material to contend with.
I was always akinda suspenders type of guy, growing up in Kitchener and working the market with mennonites, even my highschool formal I wore suspenders. 
Mb dudes just don't think its cool.
I might be missing something but I would say for me its all good imo.
Cheers have a great weekend.:smile2:


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## ronnyb (Aug 3, 2012)

Looks like he would need to start using a climbing line first.


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## 802climber (Aug 3, 2012)

+1 on using your climb line as a choker. IF you're climbing with an open system.
I have also seen guys do the choker thing with a flipline and a mechanical adjuster. Adds alot for safety and comfort. And quick to implement.

For take downs, I often run my Buckingham Masters Deluxe with their Fall Arrest Suspenders to distribute the load. Please note that they are only compatible with certain saddles.

They could also make a regular saddle convenient (and legal) for bucket or crane work. And add rescue options like somebody mentioned.

I just wear these suspenders for support or if I need to be wearing a fall arrest harness.

If I was using a chest harness with an ascender I would use one separate from my harness. I think CMI makes one which looks nice and simple.

Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like the OP is asking more about a set of suspenders rather than an SRT system! 

Thanks for the pics, I like the one of you looking down.


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## pdqdl (Aug 3, 2012)

No one commented on this, but I have been considering picking up a chest harness for a completely different purpose: Some of the equipment will convert a climbing saddle into a certified fall harness, simultaneously allowing SRT, traditional climbing setup, or use in an aerial lift.

That, and they look like they might make decent suspenders for a heavily weighted climbing belt as well as a few places to tie stuff on that isn't hanging from your waist.

Since I haven't tried any out yet, I certainly cannot comment on the usefulness of the equipment. I saw the topic, and tuned in to eavesdrop on some opinions.


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## Ms2004life (Aug 3, 2012)

To get the most from an srt chest rig you need an srt harness to join it to. No benefits unless you climbing the rope, once your up double roping is far more practical. For blocking down a chest harness has absolyely no use at all, carrying gear on a chest harness would be more of a hassle and would definitely be bad on your back etc, big wall gear slings are more what your after black diamond or metolius are great brands, i think youd use it for a day then throw it into the shed to be honest


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## Treepedo (Aug 3, 2012)

the Buckingham Y and H harnesses can both be used on most any harness with lower d's. There is connection to back and connection to the belt with a 3rd connection to the lower d's and it is rated for life support sternal and dorsal rings. What wrong with adding some support, an ascender tool, 2xlife rings, b2xbiners and new system capabilities to your harness?:msp_smile:

Tree Stuff - Buckingham Ergovation "Y" Harness


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## tramp bushler (Aug 4, 2012)

OK. I was kindof confusing with my pics. I've always done take downs with belt rope and spurs . . Now I'm starting to get into more mulit steOm trees . So I got a saddle . A Weaver Cougar. Just ordered.a Hank of ArborPlex 1/2" 150' got to start learning this stuff so I figure I'll start repelling out of the trees that I'm hanging pulling lines in. 
The other day I used the bridge to hang from to take a break and I noticed that just sitting the saddle didn't take the strain off my abs. So I got to thinking that in a multi stem where I'm


On a rope in the saddle I'll.still be maxing my abs ect out. With a chest scroll


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## tramp bushler (Aug 4, 2012)

Croll I could clip in and lean back . And use it for SRT once I learn how to do that. Looks like the Petzel would clip to my back rescue loop and bridge. And as has been said they would make some heavy duty spenders.


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## Pelorus (Aug 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Croll I could clip in and lean back . And use it for SRT once I learn how to do that. Looks like the Petzel would clip to my back rescue loop and bridge. And as has been said they would make some heavy duty spenders.



Forget the Croll for the type of work you're doing. Use a Blakes hitch or other friction hitch on a climbing line to use as a secondary lanyard when cutting, or climbing up through limbs, co-dominant stems, etc. 
How are you currently getting back to the ground after the top is removed? One step at a time = slow. Sliding down = hard on clothes. Have you got a Figure 8?


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## tramp bushler (Aug 4, 2012)

Yup 1 step at a time. Didn't used to be as laborious as it is now. . 

My figure 8 grew legs along with some other of my hardware a few years ago. I use a Gri Gri. For descents now. It's idiot pruf so far. But I have been thinking about getting one. 
They make a bunch of styles now. Any better than others? ?


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## Pelorus (Aug 4, 2012)

I had a nice small stainless steel figure 8 that also grew legs and wandered off. Am back to using their cheaper aluminum cousins. Dirty ropes do groovy things to them over time.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 4, 2012)

woodsman44 said:


> TB, I dont and dont think anybody does on here.......ok, mabey someone does, but..
> 
> A good saddle is your best bet and get some suspender's that hook to your saddle, since your a BIG guy, they will keep your saddle from falling down when climbing with a heavy saw.
> 
> Looks like in your first pic things got a little hairy....take up some small wedges and small sledge hammer for more precise felling when in the tops or dropping big sections.



I use a big, deep face when topping and chunking down a tree. Saves wedging. The spruce in the above pics was next to a house so I put a pulling line in the tops .. Just as insurance I put one on the stob too.


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## Soilarch (Aug 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> OK. I was kindof confusing with my pics. The other day I used the bridge to hang from to take a break and I noticed that just sitting the saddle didn't take the strain off my abs. So I got to thinking that in a multi stem where I'm
> 
> 
> On a rope in the saddle I'll.still be maxing my abs ect out. With a chest scroll



I've got a lot better idea now of what you're asking. You're right the croll isn't what you're wanting then. (I love mine for SRT ascending...but like I said, it has a very specific use/purpose) If you're not playing with SRT I wouldn't bother with one yet. 

I have the same saddle as you. Did I "Liger" conversion on it cause I needed the bridge to be about 1" longer to fit around my hips when I put the thing on or take it off. If my abs start to tighten up there are a few things I can do. Put weight on my foot ascender (SRT or DRT) or a single-footlock, hand from arms a while (obviously a trade-off) or hang upside down from bridge or laynard. (Not really recommended) :msp_tongue:



Here's what I meant by single-footlock
New Approaches with Knot Tying: The Sing Foot Lock - It's Amazing! 


When I first got my croll I actually took a piece of 1" webbing and used it as a left foot ascender by lashing it to my boot. Now I use a CMI foot ascender but honestly, the croll worked great.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 4, 2012)

ronnyb said:


> Looks like he would need to start using a climbing line first.



I'd also recommend getting rid of the walmart-rope lanyard. As well as buying a decent limbing saw and posting more in 101. No need for the fancy #### when you don't have the basics in order.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 4, 2012)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'd also recommend getting rid of the walmart-rope lanyard. As well as buying a decent limbing saw and posting more in 101. No need for the fancy #### when you don't have the basics in order.



Oh, OK. What do you recommend for a limbing saw? ? 
The 3/4"-18' Maxi Flip and 5/8"-8' Climb Right wire core flip lines should be here Monday or Tuesday. 
1/2" Arbor Plex too. 

What thread do u recommend in 101 . I couldn't find and that addressed my needs.


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## Pelorus (Aug 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> 1/2" Arbor Plex too.



Damn. 
Gonna have to reccomend a Wild Thing to go along with that rope.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 4, 2012)

What's. That? ?


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## Pelorus (Aug 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> What's. That? ?



Inexpensive like Arborplex.
Just messin' with ya, cause I wouldn't wish a Poulan on even my competitors.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2012)

Just cause it's inexpensive, . weekend before last I made 100$ an hour with the wife's 235 Husky. 
Sorry but small trees deserve a small saw. Ya. A 346 Husky would be better than my Jred. But it probably wouldn't make me anymore money. The 338 Husky I've been using at work is OK. But I really don't care for the top handle. 

Anything ( wrong) with Arbor Plex? ?


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## Ms2004life (Aug 5, 2012)

Bushler seems like your getting the stuff around mate. Maybe get the 'tree climbers handbook' it explains everything you want to know. If your mainly climbing conifers and doing removals (i'm guessing from the photos) then you just need to upgrade your set up two points of tie-in when your cutting is standard these days. So most belts cant do it for ya harnesses can. Saws a saw if its sharp (to a degree) use what you can afford. Good rope and a good wire core lanyard happy days. Keep it simple and don't worry about the tech s$&t till you get the new scoop basics down. Keep on keepin on


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## 802climber (Aug 5, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Just cause it's inexpensive, . weekend before last I made 100$ an hour with the wife's 235 Husky.
> Sorry but small trees deserve a small saw. Ya. A 346 Husky would be better than my Jred. But it probably wouldn't make me anymore money. The 338 Husky I've been using at work is OK. But I really don't care for the top handle.
> 
> Anything ( wrong) with Arbor Plex? ?




There is nothing in the world wrong with Arborplex.

It is made by Samson which is (one of) the best rope manufacturers for our trade. These guys are just being a buncha ####s because it is a budget rope.

I have one for a sap rope and if I was doing mostly conifer take downs I would buy it by the reel.


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## Pelorus (Aug 5, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Anything ( wrong) with Arbor Plex? ?



I comes down to a personal choice. I don't mind paying a bit more for something with higher specs when my life and livlng are dependant on it's performance. 
I think Arbor Plex is cheapo because of a higher polypropylene content. Translates into lower melting point and less strength.
Would you rather drive a soup can or something better? They will both get you from point A to point B.


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## 802climber (Aug 5, 2012)

It sounds like you're rappelling on an old school "closed" system.

I would order the Tree Climbers Companion book and a 1/2" single eye split tail and two autolocking carabiners. Or make the split tail with a piece of arborplex and a fisherman's knot instead of a splice.

You could make your system safer & more comfortable by doing the following:

* While you are still on the ground *

1. Tie a fisherman's knot onto your first carabiner with the working end of your rope. You could also use an anchor hitch or bowline with appropriate tie-off.

2. Take your split tail with second carabiner attached to the single eye and with it, tie a Blakes hitch to your rope.

3. Connect both biners to your saddle and you are now managing a loop between you and your tie in point.

4. You can open or close this loop whenever you want. Hence "open system".

5. Use it in your D-Rings as your "second flipline", or in your bridge to choker off to a spar to rest or cut, or tie in to rappel. 

This is a basic DDRT system.


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## 802climber (Aug 5, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> I comes down to a personal choice. I don't mind paying a bit more for something with higher specs when my life and livlng are dependant on it's performance.
> I think Arbor Plex is cheapo because of a higher polypropylene content. Translates into lower melting point and less strength.
> Would you rather drive a soup can or something better? They will both get you from point A to point B.




Of course it ain't the best but when and how are you gonna bring it to it's melting point doing what he is doing with it?


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## Pelorus (Aug 5, 2012)

dieseldirt said:


> These guys are just being a buncha ####s because it is a budget rope.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well...........yeah! It's not fair that Jeff gets to be the only bully.
> ...


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## Pelorus (Aug 5, 2012)

dieseldirt said:


> Of course it ain't the best but when and how are you gonna bring it to it's melting point doing what he is doing with it?



I don't know what he will end up doing with that half worn out rope in 6 months. You don't either.


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## 802climber (Aug 5, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> I don't know what he will end up doing with that half worn out rope in 6 months. You don't either.



True, but it's all relative. What seems cheap to some guys may be a big step up for other guys. I'm sure there are guys who will only climb on a Lockjack and think all split tails are junk because the fibers will eventually fail.

If it is used and stored properly then there won't be a problem.

You could take any rope product and abuse it and then die as a result. Including a wire core flipline!


It's amazing and kind of horrifying to learn about how much tensile strength rope can lose just from improper storage.

I do totally see your point, starting at the beginning with better construction and higher strength, will mean you will retain more down the road.


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## Pelorus (Aug 5, 2012)

I notice a difference in the published avg. rope strengths depending what catalog is referred to.
Also, I vaguely remember (couple of years ago) that Blue Streak & it's yellow and black/red cousins had an avg (or max) break strength of something slightly above 8000lbs. In the current Sherril cat., they are rated as only 100lb more than Arborplex. 
Likely a typo, but WesSpur lists them as only 6500lb, and Arborplex as 6000! 

I can see how someone, especially someone fairly new to the game could think they were getting a real bargain buying Arborplex over a more expensive rope.
Since they are all selling the same ropes, and most of those ropes have been around for at least several years, I would think the manufacturers would supply these equipment suppliers with the same specs, and the specs would stay the same year after year. Or, have the manufacturers actually cheapened their ropes construction for a bigger bottom line?

I once bought a "premium" climbing line from a well known mail order supplier (not one of the above) who has a booth at TCIA Expo every year. (Clue: they sell "Laser" brand chainsaw chains / bars).
Complete with sticker that said "Made in China" 
I swear the damn thing started hockling the minute it came out of the bag. Real disapointment. Loose cover strands would snag if they even looked at a twig.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> I comes down to a personal choice. I don't mind paying a bit more for something with higher specs when my life and livlng are dependant on it's performance.
> I think Arbor Plex is cheapo because of a higher polypropylene content. Translates into lower melting point and less strength.
> Would you rather drive a soup can or something better? They will both get you from point A to point B.



The reason I went with Arbor Plex is it was the only line that was advertised as working well when wet. Valdezis on the coast ( obviously) , a rain forest. Sometimes it pours all day for a week. My Samson bull ropes work in the wet but they snag and milk. Kinda act like a pain in the a--. Hopefully I'm not acting like that.

Here in Glennallen, the Copper Basin the trees are little. White Spruce, Silver Poplar. Some Cottonwood. But little ones compared to the coast. The power co op has hundreds of miles of r.o.w.that needs tree maintenance to the best of my knowledge I'm. The only multi faceted stump maker in the area. 
I know it may seem like I'm a short busser. But really this saddle and rope climbing is the only tree stuff in Alaska that I'm not a full blown professional with decades of experience in.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2012)

I know polypropylene can be strange compared to nylon or polyester. From a marine( salt water) view point. The fact is I don't " know" what the best climbing rope would be for hare. And there is no one to talk to about them other than you guys. !!! . I just need to get what
will work and what I can afford. 
Again, I appreciate all the input.

I will end up with the best gear available for the work I do. But I gotta start somewhere.

Pelorus
You got me on the Wild Thing comment. I looked all the way thru the WesSpur catalog and was starting on the Bailey's when I checked this thread and saw what you were talking about. :msp_rolleyes::msp_biggrin:


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## Pelorus (Aug 5, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Pelorus
> You got me on the Wild Thing comment. I looked all the way thru the WesSpur catalog and was starting on the Bailey's when I checked this thread and saw what you were talking about. :msp_rolleyes::msp_biggrin:



:msp_smile: 
I enjoy learning from others on this forum as to what they think is good, bad, or ugly. And in 50 years none of it is gonna matter a hill of beans to anybody still on the green side of the grass. Probably be sending robots up trees by then.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 5, 2012)

Oh ; where I live we only get 12" of precipitation . So I'm in 2 totally different climates.

So what ropes are the best for arborist work. Is there any reason my Gri Gri won't. Work well for my repelling down the tree? ?


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## Ms2004life (Aug 7, 2012)

Gri-gri's work great mate, i use mine everyday instead of a friction knot have modified it a little and is awesome. Takes in and pays out rope as well as any other setup. But just rappelling id probably go to something more basic and a little lighter. Grigris are only rate to 80kgs for abseiling and not supposed to be used commercially petzl make the id and the rig for that.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 7, 2012)

OK, that's what the difference is .. There are so many kinds of acenders and descenders. I used my first Gri Gri for roofing ect. It grew legs and I got another .. My ropes got here from WesSpur today. They sure do have good service. The shipping to Alaska is the best I've found. Ordered Tree Climbers companion from them tday. What rope do you like best for a climbing line , what ascender?


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## pdqdl (Aug 7, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Oh ; where I live we only get 12" of precipitation . So I'm in 2 totally different climates.
> 
> So what ropes are the best for arborist work. Is there any reason my Gri Gri won't. Work well for my repelling down the tree? ?



I used arborplex for many years. It does what rope is supposed to do. It seems to me that it melts under friction a bit too easy, but that might only be because when I was using arborplex I wasn't very sophisticated in my techniques; we used to burn up a lot of rope.

The other pricier ropes come with extra strength, flexibility, spliceability, and durability. Each rope has it's own unique characteristics, but the arborist ropes are all pretty similar in the final analysis. Figure out what is most important to you about a rope, then find one that matches. There are three major manufacturers of arborist rope: Yale, New England, and Sampson.


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## 802climber (Aug 8, 2012)

Yes, it seems that they are trying to eliminate the GRI-GRI from commercial use and replace it with the ID and the RIG.

Maybe you should look at getting a Lockjack? You would not have to convert between ascending and descending.

$$$ :chainsawguy:

LockJack Sport with SwivelAscender Descender by ART : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment

Just think of how many split tails and micro-pulleys you could buy for this price!!


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## tramp bushler (Aug 8, 2012)

Ya, thanks for the link. 
All these split tails and other rope ascender systems give me a headache trying to figure them out. I think I'll just go with a pair of ascender s and a Petzel ID L . As I only climb for removals or limbing. And hanging pulling lines I don't need too elaborate a setup. I'll get a rescue figure 8 for descending when I want to reach the ground and pull my line out of the tree to go to the next tree in line for limbing. I just got tree climbers companion in the mail today. It seems I can do SRT with the ascender and repel with the ID L. .???


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## pdqdl (Aug 8, 2012)

If you are going to SRT up those huge trees you showed pics of, you will want to get a foot ascender. There are quite a bit of straps and strings and contraptions to use if you are going to attach your leg strength to your hand ascenders. They just wrap around your ankle, and up the rope you go. I have the Petzl and I like how easy it is to slip on & off the rope. There are other brands that don't slip off as easy, but some guys prefer that.

I suspect that you will mostly have spurs on, which might make it a bit tricky to use a foot ascender at the same time.

When you get that rescue-8, make sure that you get a few loopies with it. Once you are up in a tree, you will be surprised how often they become handy. I use my rescue-8 as a collector to attach all my 10-12 loopies to. It has a nice big ring that has room for lots of carabiners. Once you have that equipment, then you are ready for speedlining, multiple branches coming down with one lowering cycle, all sorts of cool tricks.

The rescue8 and a loopie attached to a good anchor point also makes an excellent friction device for heavier branches you need to lower under control when you are by yourself. They are not as good as a port-a-wrap, but they are a heck of a lot smaller, lighter and more versatile. I don't think anybody lowers themselves out of a tree with a port-a-wrap.


BTW: thanks for your comments on my behalf down in logging. They sure gave me a load of crap, didn't they? 

I thought the lawn fairies comment was kinda funny. His post sounded like he might have actually been tripping on something; _he truly might have been seeing some lawn fairies_. Myself, I don't know what they look like.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

Ya a pair of foot loops will be necessary. A big problem with the big tree take Downs is finding good ground men. . I need to get a big enough 8 for the doubled 1/2" . Think I'l need a double rope grab for a back up.


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## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

Not sure what you mean by "doubled 1/2"

Are you planning on climbing a doubled rope, using a doubled ascender? In my limited experience, that is a pain in the butt. You must have an isolated tie-in with no branches in between the two ends of the rope. I have never been able to do that without losing a LOT of time fussing with throwballs and other nonsense to get the job done.

I did learn a very easy way to avoid the problem, though. If that is your plan, inquire, and I will share the trick. Learned it here at AS from D Mc.


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## Ms2004life (Aug 9, 2012)

For big wood take downs you don't need doubled of anything just your wire core and your rope then the pulley/block to lower the bit your dropping. Get the 'advanced rigging' book man and all your answers are there in black and white. Super helpfull and shows all the answers your asking plus all the answers to future questions. Enjoy, keen to get up there at some time keen to check some alaskan mountains


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## Ms2004life (Aug 9, 2012)

Yale blue moon been the best all round rope ive had great for jumaring and double rope and dropping big ass pine as a second to my lanyard works well with grigri and dont seem to wear out


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

1 st. . Not climbing on a doubled line. Decending on it. Gotta limb one side of a lot of trees. Several miles of pwr line r.o.w. go up with spurs and 2 flip lines. Cut 1-10 limbs per tree. Put climbing line around tree or good limb and put both in figure8. Repelling to the ground. Pull climbing rope out of tree from the ground and go to the next tree.

I figure I won't get as much pitch ect on my rope as fast if I'm not rendering it around the tree under a load on every tree.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

Ms2004life said:


> For big wood take downs you don't need doubled of anything just your wire core and your rope then the pulley/block to lower the bit your dropping. Get the 'advanced rigging' book man and all your answers are there in black and white. Super helpfull and shows all the answers your asking plus all the answers to future questions. Enjoy, keen to get up there at some time keen to check some alaskan mountains



For the big wood take Downs that was what I've been thinking. I was looking at some private h.o. trees that need a crane to remove some big dead limbs hanging over a nice home. A speed line rigged half way up may work but there aren't any any anchor trees for the bottom of the speed line without crossing the street.
Alaska has LOTS of mountains. We have lots of a lot of things except hot weather. The Richardson hwy. Which goes from Valdez to Fairbanks goes thru Keystone Canyon. Along the Lowe river. It where Horsetail and Bridelveil falls are. A lot of ice climbers climb them in the winter. And that is the area where the do the extreme skiing. And a little further up the highway on the north side of Thompson Pass.


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## Metals406 (Aug 9, 2012)

Glen, with other trees close, here's how Cody will setup a lot of times. Pretty simple setup, and a good escape option, as well as easier decent. He climbs in a regular saddle, nothing special.

Installing my climbline - YouTube

Frigg'n video won't embed. :msp_sneaky:


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

We just had another earthquake 4.8 magnitude about 180 miles away. I'm planning on getting a Petzel ID L. 
I'll get that book,Blue Moon Thats a good recommendations I can only find it in 1/2" .tho. I've thot about going to 7/16" rope. But will prolly just stay with 1/2" and get the riggin I need for it.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks Nate! ! I liked the " I edited out my riggin fit " :msp_wink:
Cody is real sharp. He figures out all kinds of stuff to make work better. Too bad he doesn't cut up here any more. But I know how the staying around home goes. Thats how I got into this climbing around here. Last summer I was gone for 5 months. Sure is nice being home
I use a 1# halibut fishing cannon ball weight for my throw line at this point. Gotta get a bag ..
Hurts when it comes back and gets me. Hard hat MANDATORY .


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## Metals406 (Aug 9, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Thanks Nate! ! I liked the " I edited out my riggin fit " :msp_wink:
> Cody is real sharp. He figures out all kinds of stuff to make work better. Too bad he doesn't cut up here any more. But I know how the staying around home goes. Thats how I got into this climbing around here. Last summer I was gone for 5 months. Sure is nice being home
> I use a 1# halibut fishing cannon ball weight for my throw line at this point. Gotta get a bag ..
> Hurts when it comes back and gets me. Hard hat MANDATORY .



Now that's a throw weight! 

That would smart, even if it didn't get ya in the top-knot! I've used Cody's Big Shot, it's pretty dang slick. Well worth getting if a guy sets more than a couple lines a year.


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## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> ...
> I figure I won't get as much pitch ect on my rope as fast if I'm not rendering it around the tree under a load on every tree.



Got it.

Get one of the friction savers that works like a tube around your rope. It stays on the branch while you are sliding down the rope, and it will keep your ropes mostly clean. It will certainly prevent those cases where your rope comes down impregnated with sap from the burn you installed in the tree branch. They are easy to set, easy to remove.

Tie a knot in the end, pull your rope out. Avoid narrow crotches, though. You won't like how that turns out.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

Ya. I've had that happen just putting pulling lines in. The Rock double line rope grab is for my safety when using the figure8 descending.
easy enough to slack with my left thumb, which has to be on the rope anyway while I have the free end of the ropes in my right hand. Getting a throw line up thru the limbs on a Sitka spruce is problematic at best.
Climbing with 2 flip lines will get more done in less time than SRT when the total time per tree is figured in.
.


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## pdqdl (Aug 9, 2012)

I don't often get high enough in a tree to need the rescue-8 to come down on, and I certainly worry about loosing the free end of the rope.

Just install the rescue 8 above your regular friction hitch. Use a loopie, fix it to your saddle with a 'biner. Done that way, the friction hitch is only controlling the free end of the rope, and the -8 is doing all the friction control. This is the main idea behind the rope-wrench, so it's not exactly a new idea.

If anything broke or went wrong, you would still have your traditional double-rope with friction hitch holding you in the tree. Less hardware is often best, and certainly cheaper.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 9, 2012)

I've never tied a friction hitch. Heard too many stories of friction hitches slipping. I really don't like anything that slips when I'm in a tree. I've spured out too many times to like the feeling.
I like rope grabs. Fought with enough cat's paws over the decades.


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## pdqdl (Aug 10, 2012)

Rope grabs are useless for descending, but great for going up the rope. Like the name suggests, they GRAB. Then your weight is on the device, and you can't release it until you climb up the rope far enough to get free. 

Seriously, friction hitches are the most often used method to control your position on a rope in a tree. They are generally not used on SRT descent, 'cause they bind up too tight and don't slide. Used below your rescue-8, any of them would work great even on SRT.

Do a little practicing, and you will discover that they are quite secure and easy to use. I got lots of links to knot webpages if you need any. I recommend starting on a traditional knot like the prussic, taut line, or Blake's hitch.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 10, 2012)

How will a prusik work on a double rope?


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## pdqdl (Aug 10, 2012)

I guess I should only say that I think rope grabs are useless for descending. You have apparently figured a way to do it, and it would certainly be a good safety.

I've been climbing on friction hitches for about 25 years. I have more trouble trusting a rescue-8 for descent than I do my friction knots. I guess it is all in what you are accustomed to.


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## Ms2004life (Aug 10, 2012)

Agree it what you get used to. Friction hiches are great as a back up to descenders in our game though with so much rope use i have found mechanical gadgets to be harder and longer wearing as the rope on rope wear just eats through to much line i have my grigri running for almost five years and still going strong and i use a petzl shunt as a friction back up instead had it for 4 years and cost me $70(nz) works out way cheaper than cord over here. For myself coming from 20+ years of wall and mountain climbing background i used all methods of ascension and descending so had good pool to work from and have found this set up to be the cost effective and efficient for all tree work scenarios srt drt its all awesome changeovers are simpler which is safer have a great day im off ice climbing


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## pdqdl (Aug 10, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> How will a prusik work on a double rope?



Excellent.

One of the basic footlocking maneuvers that learning arborists are supposed to master is to take a doubled rope, setup a prussic that chokes down on both ropes, then use that prussic loop to secure the climber in between foot thrusts. A prussic holds two ropes even better than one.

Of course, I never mastered footlocking. I could be the lead entertainment event at an arborist competition; _it would be the comedy routine_. Everybody would be laughing, guaranteed.

Here is a pretty good video showing the basic method: Footlocking | Advanced tree climbing techniques - YouTube

Of course, this method relies on having an isolated tie-in point to work from. If you are spurring up, then sliding down, that will be rather easy to set up. Using a double rope to descend on would not be my preferred method of getting out the the tree, however.


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## Ms2004life (Aug 11, 2012)

Agreed mate not mine either.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 14, 2012)

Went down to Valdez on Sunday and picked up some more climbing gear. Got a Kong Rescue 8 in red aluminum and a Kong ascender. Also got some tube webbing and a short piece of 9mm kernmantal. . I probably should have got 7mm . I want to use it for prusik. Line .. got some more screw lock biners. I was hopeing they had some ball lock biners but no luck . I like the Petzel screw lock because they show red if they are. Unscrewed at all . . Last night I made up my 1st Beer knot sling. Gonna work on making up a prusik tonight. That Tree Climbers Companion is a pretty good book. . Next I need a day off to go play with this stuff.


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## pdqdl (Aug 15, 2012)

I might be mistaken, but you may find that kernmantle rope a bit stretchy for tree work. Is it rock climbing rope?

Good call on getting a smaller diameter rope. I was imagining myself climbing up 150' trees all day, and I got to thinking how heavy a 300' long chunk of 1/2" blue streak would be. Pant...Pant...Heavy wheezing....at the top of a tree.

Smaller diameter is lighter, but it cuts quicker and wears through sooner. Be careful.


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## Ms2004life (Aug 15, 2012)

A kernmantle rope is a rope with a core and a sheath. There are two types dynamic and static, dynamic has stretch eg, rock climbing and static does not eg, abseiling and tree climbing. Nowadays they are made for specific industries and have varying levels of stretch or staticness (i just made that word up).


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## tramp bushler (Aug 15, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> I might be mistaken, but you may find that kernmantle rope a bit stretchy for tree work. Is it rock climbing rope?
> 
> Good call on getting a smaller diameter rope. I was imagining myself climbing up 150' trees all day, and I got to thinking how heavy a 300' long chunk of 1/2" blue streak would be. Pant...Pant...Heavy wheezing....at the top of a tree.
> 
> Smaller diameter is lighter, but it cuts quicker and wears through sooner. Be careful.



I got the 9mm rope to make prusik hitches with. None of the deciduous trees in Alaska get that tall. The conifers do but it would be rare for me to hang a climbing line in one of them. They are just belt and spurs.
I've been thinking of getting a 200' Hank of 1/2" blue moon.

The prusik is for above the rescue 8 for descending. Yes it is prolly mountaineering rope. But I cut it to 8' for the prusik. Shouldn't be too much stretch in that.


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## pdqdl (Aug 16, 2012)

If I was going to secure a descent on an "8" with a prussic, I would put it below the 8. There are only 3 ways to fall out of the tree rapelling on an 8: Your rope breaks, your 8 anchor point fails, or you lose control of the tail below the 8.

Secured below the 8 with a prussic will protect from 2 out of 3 potential failures listed above, plus it will be protected by the 8 from loading up and getting hot. Rigged below the 8 to the line feeding into the 8, you will only need to control the prussic, and the 8 will just remain above all the action, quietly doing its job. If you want to stop, just let go of the prussic. Continue descending? Just grip the prussic and pull down to go down.

Secured above the 8 with any sort of friction hitch will require you to tend both the tail of the rope feeding into the 8, as well as controlling the prussic "safety" above the 8. If you screw up and lose control of the 8, the prussic will hold you just fine, but it will be a big distraction otherwise, and the 8 will abandon doing its job as soon as you let go of the rope feeding into it, intentionally or otherwise.


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## pdqdl (Aug 16, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I got the 9mm rope to make prusik hitches with. None of the deciduous trees in Alaska get that tall. The conifers do but it would be rare for me to hang a climbing line in one of them. They are just belt and spurs.
> I've been thinking of getting a 200' Hank of 1/2" blue moon.
> 
> The prusik is for above the rescue 8 for descending. Yes it is prolly mountaineering rope. But I cut it to 8' for the prusik. Shouldn't be too much stretch in that.



Once you get used to riding the elevator down out of a tree, you will decide that spurring back down the tree is too much trouble...Let's see...How can I get a rope up that tree to rappel down? 

Hmm...I think I'll climb that big ol' tree and bring a rope, too. How much of that 9mm rope will I need?


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## tramp bushler (Aug 16, 2012)

Generally speaking, when I go up a tree it's to turn said tree into a stump. Or for powerline limbing. In the first instance I'll be chunking it down. In the 2nd I'll repel down. Thats why I got the Arbor Plex. If the boss doesn't have any work for me tomorrow I have a Silver Poplar picked out to practice both SRT and drt on.
It's going to take some practice for me to get a system figured out for me to use. I don't have a Big Shot so getting my line up the tree is a labor of love. :msp_mad:


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## tramp bushler (Aug 17, 2012)

Like this.




. 
. This is what I had previously figured out then I saw it in the book.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 17, 2012)

Well I went out and practiced today. Man, talk about an AB workout. .I did SRT first. , got stuck for a bit about 10' up. Prusik hitches Really hold. Had to put my thinking cap on to figure out how to get my weight onto the figure 8 . I had the ascender on top with a web strap to the saddle bridge. Prusik below it with foot loops made from 5mm cord. I ran the prusik to a biners on the bridge with the foot loops hitched to the prusik.
. Had my Merrill trail shoes on. I had to mount the 8 on the free end of the rope. Sit/stand,slide up the prusik and tighten up all the slack from the 8 . Put a double sort hitch on the 8 .take the Kong ascender off the line. Then loosen the prusik, take the soft hitches off the 8 then repelling down. It was harder to do it than it is to type it.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 17, 2012)

My little shot cube, wait, it's just a 5gallon bucket.



Works OK.
.



.
.
Hope things come out right.
.



.
Well I got the line up in the tree. Now see if I can figure the rest of it out
.



.
It took a while to figure out the sling shot. The 115# spectra halibut fishing line that I robbed off my halibut rod flys good but snarls often. Then I pulled up the 5mm pass rope with it then pulled the Arbor Plex up with the 5mm .


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## tramp bushler (Aug 17, 2012)

So after my SRT try out I read the book some more and got to thinking that rendering the climbing line thru the crotch would be like having a block purchase on my saddle. Should be half as hard to pull my fat butt up the tree. So I tied the end of the rope to the bridge with a bowline w/2 half hitch keepers and did the ascender and prusik w/foot loops thing again and low and behold it was. I was off to the races then .. so I did that a few times, climb up, repell down on the 8 . Then I took another break and read some more. Then I wanted to see if my doubled climbing line in the 8 would work. So I put on the spurs and flip line and up I went. The hiking shoes aren't as comfortable in the spurs as my Viberg 's are. But still I breezed up the tree. Trimmed some limbs with a hand saw put the climbing line in the 8 , both legs of it, slacked my flip line and down I came. When the flip line hung up I just gave it a flip and came down. Worked great.

I may be a 101 on a climbing rope. But I'm pretty good in the belt+ spurs.
Thanks for your pacitents all.


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## Ms2004life (Aug 18, 2012)

Good one mate your into it!! Myself i just use two ascenders with foot loops attached to my harness easy as pie for those big rope climbs. Well done man


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## tramp bushler (Aug 18, 2012)

How did you figure the length from the ascender to the bridge or loop/ring and to the foot loops.
Trial and error or is there some formula or something. ??


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## tramp bushler (Aug 18, 2012)

Oh and I beg to differ. There ain't nuthin easy about this rope climbing. It may not be any harder on big trees but it isn't any easier on small trees ..


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## Ms2004life (Aug 18, 2012)

Haha just a matter of finding your lengths don't make the up strokes to long, little steps is beter like walking upstairs if you get me. You can add a third to your bridge which can make it easier to rest. It gets easier and your not as trashed when you get to the anchor


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## smokey01 (Aug 18, 2012)

*chest harness*



tramp bushler said:


> Does anyone wear these regularly, are they a fad or for fat old guys like me? ? Seems it would give the ABS a break on a big tree.
> I mean attached to a saddle?


I am new to climbing and I'm buying and trying all kinds of equipment and methods.
I do have a Petzl chest harness and use it with a Croll ascender. 
It gives me a good rest position and allows me to switch from walking up the rope and stand sit up the rope on long climbs. I have a foot ascender on my right foot and foot loop to a Unicender on my left. If I want to come down quickly, I just stand on either or both feet, disconnect the chest ascender and repel with the Unicender. The Unicender and chest ascender give me two solid connections to the climbing line. (not counting the foot ascender.)
Another option is to replace the chest ascender with the Unicender but then I am only connected once to the climbing line. (again, not counting the foot ascender.)
View attachment 249019
View attachment 249019


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## tramp bushler (Aug 19, 2012)

Ms200, I got you on the small steps. I need to order another ascender. I did 1 Sitka spruce in Valdez today. If we can figure out the uploading of the video the h.o. took I'll try t get it on you tube. Should have some pics tomorrow. Topped it at about 95' and chunked it down.. took 2 hrs 15minutes including falling, the stob. I sure do like the 3/4" Yale Maxi wirecore flip line. Once it gets pitched up it will be even easier to hang onto. But it's real good even new. 

Smokey ; welcome to Arborist Site. Cool chair. I'll have to research the Unicender.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Aug 19, 2012)

TB, this is what I use, easy peasy...."The top set-up is"...30" ocean 10mm prusic with VT hitch, DMM rig pulley, samson 12.7mm climbing rope, DMM O carabiner, cambium protector......dont worry about the bottom line, thats my lanyard for doing pruning, deadwooding.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 19, 2012)

Thanks 44 . I just got a pulley so I can work on learning how to work the VT.
.Hera are the only 2 pics I have so far of Saturdays tree.




The stob is about 36' tall.



.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Aug 19, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Thanks 44 . I just got a pulley so I can work on learning how to work the VT.



TB, good deal, let us know how it works for you...hope all is well, stay safe.


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## pdqdl (Aug 20, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> How did you figure the length from the ascender to the bridge or loop/ring and to the foot loops.
> Trial and error or is there some formula or something. ??



I use a carabiner on one end of a short chunk of rope, and I put an adjustable loop with a friction hitch on the other end. That way I can adjust it as needed. It doubles nicely as a chainsaw safety, too.

Your 9mm prussic cord will be great for that.


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## smokey01 (Aug 21, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Ms200,. I did 1 Sitka spruce in Valdez today. If we can figure out the uploading of the video the h.o. took I'll try t get it on you tube. Should have some pics tomorrow.
> 
> Smokey ; welcome to Arborist Site. Cool chair. I'll have to research the Unicender.



Thanks, I like my chair too. The neighbors think I am a little nuts but I suspect they are correct. 
Hope to see your vidio and pictures.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 31, 2012)

*do you have a pic of it*

I can't figure it. Petzel has something that looks like it would work good WesSpur sells it.
in the mean time I'll try using a web loop I made.

Welcome to the forums Ralph! Thanks. !


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## pdqdl (Mar 6, 2014)

tramp bushler said:


> Like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope you are still following this thread; I just stumbled across this post.

The picture shown above is what you will find when a guy is climbing "doubled rope", as in footlocking up the doubled rope with a prussic for a safety; this was the old standard for how to get in a tree before SRT techniques became popular. Try that on SRT and your prussic will bind up, leaving you with a difficult hump up the rope to get the "8" back on-line with some tension on it.

Oh! You discovered that, didn't you? Try the 8 above your prussic, and it will work just fine. The prussic won't bind up, and the 8 will take care of itself.


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## pdqdl (Mar 6, 2014)

tramp bushler said:


> How did you figure the length from the ascender to the bridge or loop/ring and to the foot loops.
> Trial and error or is there some formula or something. ??



I use a little beeline cord with carabiner on one end and an adjustable loop on the other end formed with a tautline hitch. If it needs to be a little longer or shorter, I just adjust. The beeline is very stout, not at all stretchy, and it binds down pretty tight on a tautline hitch, so creeping knots are not a problem.


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