# making ourselves obsolete



## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

Isn't this job getting easier and safer? With the evolution of better and more job specific gear and equipment and the demand to always wear ppe and follow more exacting standards (ANSI)....

Is this job even dangerous anymore?

Any of the more dangerous techniques one wants to learn they can just pick up a book, watch a video......or go on a forum and ask (respectfully). Are we creating our own monsters.

I have a little different perspective than most of you that don't know that relatively speaking...there were not that many tree companies to compete with back in the late 60's. There were always accidents, the gear and equipment very primitive (hemp rope!) and the level of knowledge was so far behind what it is now across the profession....it is a wonder more people did not die.

But now even though at first glance it appears to be death defying in nature....tree work truthfully with perpetually secured climbing, double tie ins, foolproof rope and harnesses sophisticated equipment, etc....has it become something like riding a bicycle and anyone can and will do it to the point that virtually everyone is or was a treeman at one time?

Newb....."how do you amazing guys get that giant dead tree down that is hanging over that mansion...."

"Well, look kid, pull your chair up to the computer screen, get a pencil and paper and ......"


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## clearance (Feb 15, 2010)

The term "textbook hero, workplace zero" mean anything to you? Kind of like ISA certified people who only climb out of bed, big diff between seeing it done and doing it.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

clearance said:


> The term "textbook hero, workplace zero" mean anything to you? Kind of like ISA certified people who only climb out of bed, big diff between seeing it done and doing it.



What I am saying is it is actually safer and easier to actually DO it (not just read about it) with the gear, equipment, and all the instruction you can get from people like you and me on forums so......

this is why there are so many more people doing it and filling up the yellow pages and showing up to bid against you etc etc....and....

there are gonna be a whole lot more now that joe schmoe just lost his engineering job.

Not really looking for an answer here....just stating a dilemma. Are we, from day to day, training our own competition....and is this the dangerous job that should bring premium bucks....anymore?


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 15, 2010)

clearance said:


> The term "textbook hero, workplace zero" mean anything to you? Kind of like ISA certified people who only climb out of bed, big diff between seeing it done and doing it.



I know you dont mean all cert.ISA people. 
Jeff
Treevet, Having an inspirational moment or two, or three?
Jeff


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Jeff
> Treevet, Having an inspirational moment or two, or three?
> Jeff



No, not really, just stating the obvious, which sometimes fails to get stated.

Just for thought and discussion.


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## clearance (Feb 15, 2010)

Climbing trees isn't the same as wannabees biulding decks, sheds, or doing some plumbing. Many are scared of heights, would never think of it. But I guess there are some, so I see your point.


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## tree md (Feb 15, 2010)

I was thinking about the same thing the other day. For the first time I started thinking that some sort of certification requirement might not be too bad of an idea to weed out the weekend warriors and hacks. Trust me, I believe that people have a right to work but with the amount of liability and danger in our field some oversight and industry requirements might not be a bad thing.

Of course there is always the possibility of the untrained and unscrupulous ending up like this:

http://www.unionleader.com/article....rticleId=37f7db6e-b4cf-4a61-9179-3cd8665c59bd 

I know I have been guilty of giving direction to some of the weekend warriors myself. I guess I aught to watch what I say a little more.


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## treesquirrel (Feb 15, 2010)

Taking this business for granted is a deadly prospect.

Even with all the techno gear, and I use a lot of the new toys, you gotta know how to work out rigging problems in your head. A mistake when rigging big stuff can seriously injure you or your groundies. Maybe even cause a fatality.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

I guess I have not communicated my thought very well to either you TreeMD or you Treesquirrel. I think Clearance knows what I am saying in that the danger factor is leaning away from the Wallenda s to the shed builders in degree of difficulty and danger. 

We moan about droves of hacks and yuppy tree companies flooding the market but maybe it is ......just not that dangerous anymore....and

knowledge needed to operate...be it field work or identifying decay causing organisms....is right at your fingertips in a download.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

Here is an example. The green climber has mastered getting up in and around in big trees from forums and a little time in the saddle. He has figured out knots and hitches in the Sherrill Catalogue. He just cannot figure how to take big wood out of a tree over a roof that is too far away to toss and no crotch to swing it off the roof.

He brings this up on a forum and in return he is told to get the gm on the roof and hook up the big wood like this with this equipment....


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 15, 2010)

treevet said:


> I guess I have not communicated my thought very well to either you TreeMD or you Treesquirrel. I think Clearance knows what I am saying in that the danger factor is leaning away from the Wallenda s to the shed builders in degree of difficulty and danger.
> 
> We moan about droves of hacks and yuppy tree companies flooding the market but maybe it is ......just not that dangerous anymore....and
> 
> knowledge needed to operate...be it field work or identifying decay causing organisms....is right at your fingertips in a download.



You worry too much- how do you think we got this far. You should be more optomistic and all will be ok.
Jeff


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You worry too much- how do you think we got this far. You should be more optomistic and all will be ok.
> Jeff



There is a drastically different economic climate than I have ever seen in the, now, 41 years I have been in business. This is not the subject of what I am posting about but certainly a part of it.

I like your optimism though Jeff and as far as me personally, if only the strong survive in this economy, I plan to survive.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 15, 2010)

We all will.

Jeff


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We all will.
> 
> Jeff



Time to step out of our comfort zone IMO. Then we make it.


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## tree md (Feb 15, 2010)

treevet said:


> There is a drastically different economic climate than I have ever seen in the, now, 41 years I have been in business. This is not the subject of what I am posting about but certainly a part of it.
> 
> I like your optimism though Jeff and as far as me personally, if only the strong survive in this economy, I plan to survive.



X2 although I have only been in it 20 years now.

I bid a job today that I would have hit at $1800 a year or so back. Large removal in the front, around 30" DBH. A little rope work, maybe 4 large limbs. Stump has to be ground. However this is for a lady who manages the property where I do commercial work. I told her $1675 and she looked like she had been gut shot. She told me she had already got a bid from a solicitor for $1400. Now I'm obligated to give her an even lower price if I want to remain in good favor for the commercial work. Ended up giving her a price of $1200 with the stump included. 

As has been the trend this year, another job for about 1/3 less than what the market would bear a year ago.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

tree md said:


> X2 although I have only been in it 20 years now.
> 
> I bid a job today that I would have hit at $1800 a year or so back. Large removal in the front, around 30" DBH. A little rope work, maybe 4 large limbs. Stump has to be ground. However this is for a lady who manages the property where I do commercial work. I told her $1675 and she looked like she had been gut shot. She told me she had already got a bid from a solicitor for $1400. Now I'm obligated to give her an even lower price if I want to remain in good favor for the commercial work. Ended up giving her a price of $1200 with the stump included.
> 
> As has been the trend this year, another job for about 1/3 less than what the market would bear a year ago.



I hear ya man, I think we all do.


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## treesquirrel (Feb 15, 2010)

treevet said:


> I guess I have not communicated my thought very well to either you TreeMD or you Treesquirrel. I think Clearance knows what I am saying in that the danger factor is leaning away from the Wallenda s to the shed builders in degree of difficulty and danger.



I guess that's true with all the new gizmo's. It is certainly a lot safer than when hemp was all the rage.

I can see what you are saying but this is still tricky biz. There will always be danger, so when the danger level can be reduced then it is a good thing for us and our loved ones IMO.


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## treesquirrel (Feb 15, 2010)

tree md said:


> As has been the trend this year, another job for about 1/3 less than what the market would bear a year ago.



Yes, I have found myself getting underbid even if I quote at close to half what I would have two years ago. I'm having to bid jobs based on the time estimate for removal and just forget about any upcharges for high risk or high technical requirements.

Suddenly I find myself not even considering the level of difficulty and just trying to estimate the time as close as possible.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> I guess that's true with all the new gizmo's. It is certainly a lot safer than when hemp was all the rage.
> 
> I can see what you are saying but this is still tricky biz. There will always be danger, so when the danger level can be reduced then it is a good thing for us and our loved ones IMO.



THAT is what I meant treesquirrel. Yes good for our safety but maybe the increase in safety of the profession gets LOTS more in the business (heck, not maybe....definitely) and with the ease of attaining knowledge the competition is increasing exponentially.

Ah....sorry bout the end of the world blather.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> Yes, I have found myself getting underbid even if I quote at close to half what I would have two years ago. I'm having to bid jobs based on the time estimate for removal and just forget about any upcharges for high risk or high technical requirements.
> 
> Suddenly I find myself not even considering the level of difficulty and just trying to estimate the time as close as possible.



again.....not just the economy but also

increase in competition. It is so obvious around here.


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## treeman82 (Feb 15, 2010)

I think that 2 of the factors that should be looked at are greed, and the changing consumers.

The guy who works for me sold his business about 20 years ago to a growing company which is now a nationwide business.

30 years ago, his client base was built of mostly wealthy individuals who were spending quite a few dollars each year on their tree care. Whether that be spraying, or cabling, lightning protection, etc. etc. They were spending quite a few bucks with him. These people had caretakers, or gardeners who would take care of the grounds... and he would be called in for the trees.

Now, having a tree pruned, removed, or sprayed is not something that only the wealthy spend on. Most consumers now have companies coming in to mow their lawns. These lawn companies are always looking to get more customers, so they'll go after the tree work... the regular consumer won't have too much experience, so they will hire the guy who does a good job on the lawn. 

These days a lawn company may have a hundred or more lawn accounts... 20+ years ago, 1 guy might maintain 1 - 15 accounts with as many as 5 guys on the crew. These days, those places have been subdivided, and what was once a sprawling estate, might be 2 or 3, or more mcmansions.

Last summer when I went to the ISA convention I remember Cynthia Mills speaking about how in the years to come we will see fewer and fewer large trees, but far more engineered landscapes, with lots of ornamentals. Honestly, what she said scared, and upset me... but there is quite a bit of truth to that. Now as the big trees are cut down for expansion, or just come to the end of their lifecycle, when their numbers are counted over the years, that will certainly put a number of guys out of work, or they will be forced to adapt to do more planting, small trees, phc, and so forth.


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 15, 2010)

I understand what you are saying but it is happening to all trades. Do it yourself materials and knowledge are allowing homeowners to do projects that they would have contracted out before ie drywall vs plaster, plumbing, carpentry etc. Just consider house construction. Not many years ago, only the high end contractors had an air compressor, now any home handyman with a reasonable supply of tools has an air compressor, nail guns, sprayers, etc (and they are cheap to buy).

I think what is happening is if you consider the tree work in a continuum of difficulty, the bottom of the list is now being done by homeowners and newby hacks thus forcing the people who lived at that scale, primarily landscapers to move up the scale. Competition in the middle of the scale is now forcing people up the scale adding more competition to the highly trained people. 

How is this going to play out? What I see is that demographics will come into play. As the baby boomers, who were the thrust of the diy'ers get too old to do this work, there will be opportunities for the following generations.


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## tree md (Feb 15, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> Yes, I have found myself getting underbid even if I quote at close to half what I would have two years ago. I'm having to bid jobs based on the time estimate for removal and just forget about any upcharges for high risk or high technical requirements.
> 
> Suddenly I find myself not even considering the level of difficulty and just trying to estimate the time as close as possible.



Atlanta is a tough Market. I started out there and it was a great market back in the early to mid 90's. By the time I left in 2001 everyone and their brother was doing tree work though. I imaging it has just gotten worse since I left.

Even here it seems competition has doubled in the past couple of years.


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## Mikecutstrees (Feb 15, 2010)

I understand what people are saying, but I think the difference is quality and difficulty. There are very few really good climbers around anymore. Companies are afraid of trees with no bucket access around here. All of the crappy companies just cut toss and chunk out of the bucket. Really good companies are a cut above. You can't learn how to rig out the top of a 90 foot pine in the wind from a book...... Mike


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## clearance (Feb 15, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> I understand what you are saying but it is happening to all trades. Do it yourself materials and knowledge are allowing homeowners to do projects that they would have contracted out before ie drywall vs plaster, plumbing, carpentry etc. Just consider house construction. Not many years ago, only the high end contractors had an air compressor, now any home handyman with a reasonable supply of tools has an air compressor, nail guns, sprayers, etc (and they are cheap to buy).



This is true, I started working construction in '85, 17 years old. Ever since, the quality of the wood, and the general quaility of the work has gone right down hill. Back then every framing contractor had an air compressor, but not too many other people, and the guns cost more. 

I remember when that osb sheeting first came out, junk then, junk now, I don't care what anyone says. Now they use it for stair tread! So yeah, lots of people are doing it, making a lesser product. 

As far as trees, maybe guys who have something already going for themselves as in they have done some real work, will get into it. But most homeowners will be too scared, or we will read about them in the paper. Lol.


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## Golf (Feb 15, 2010)

The problem is, our profession is highly specialized, but less recognized.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> I understand what you are saying but it is happening to all trades. Do it yourself materials and knowledge are allowing homeowners to do projects that they would have contracted out before ie drywall vs plaster, plumbing, carpentry etc. Just consider house construction. Not many years ago, only the high end contractors had an air compressor, now any home handyman with a reasonable supply of tools has an air compressor, nail guns, sprayers, etc (and they are cheap to buy).
> 
> I think what is happening is if you consider the tree work in a continuum of difficulty, the bottom of the list is now being done by homeowners and newby hacks thus forcing the people who lived at that scale, primarily landscapers to move up the scale. Competition in the middle of the scale is now forcing people up the scale adding more competition to the highly trained people.
> 
> How is this going to play out? What I see is that demographics will come into play. As the baby boomers, who were the thrust of the diy'ers get too old to do this work, there will be opportunities for the following generations.



I agree.

And along with what treeman 82 said in regards to losing many large trees to construction....lawyers are the reason many people are being scared out of retaining big trees which are the main excluding specialty of the high level arb.


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

Golf said:


> The problem is, our profession is highly specialized, but less recognized.



This is true. Where is the recognition? Certification. But is it good enough....definitely not.

A woman that used to be a vet and visits our Forestry Board meetings just passed the ISA cert after a few tries. Now the city has her advising them on tree matters. She passed a 100 multiple choice questions test. I passed it 18 years ago without studying (recertified 6 times) and already had over 22 years when I took it. I have worked on trees as well 40 years and she never has and is a heavy old woman so she never will.

I asked the new city manager if I could prune some trees in their ROW and his response was well you are a cert arb so I guess it is ok.

He has the woman and me on the same grounds based on the certification we both have. He has no clue whatsoever about our profession outside of the "Certification".


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## treevet (Feb 15, 2010)

clearance said:


> As far as trees, maybe guys who have something already going for themselves as in they have done some real work, will get into it. But most homeowners will be too scared, or we will read about them in the paper. Lol.



They will take the easy stuff (already have) and as mentioned by BC Westcoast....this will push the landscapers etc. up the ladder right into that realm under our high level work which severely limits the overall work load availability.

We do so few easy jobs compared to the past anymore


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## Komitet (Feb 16, 2010)

This job isn't really getting any safer, there's just more rules, nothing is chainsaw proof, it's still just a rope, a belt, a hope and a prayer, (although the belts are a lot more comfy nowadays).


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## clearance (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> This is true. Where is the recognition? Certification. But is it good enough....definitely not.
> 
> A woman that used to be a vet and visits our Forestry Board meetings just passed the ISA cert after a few tries. Now the city has her advising them on tree matters. She passed a 100 multiple choice questions test. I passed it 18 years ago without studying (recertified 6 times) and already had over 22 years when I took it. I have worked on trees as well 40 years and she never has and is a heavy old woman so she never will.
> 
> ...



This is probably my biggest beef with the ISA, and many ISA types. The city mangager is like the public, they are often shocked to find out what the deal is. And the title goes right to some peoples pointy heads. I guess if you never did nothing you have to make yourself out to be important, its BS.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.

If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.

We climbed on rope that grew from the ground, hemp. Sometimes this rope could decay if laying in an orchard and be rotten in the middle and nobody could see it.

Nobody used buckets ever...or cranes.

If I had multi doms and had to go down and then go back up, I would get a crotch up in the next part of the work and then just pull myself up the line, even if it was 20...30 feet holding the drt with no footlock but rather walking up the stem while walking my hands up the rope. Everyone I worked did this if no spikes were used. We are talking very high level tree companies I am not going to mention.

Very few people used lanyards and no one double tied in.

No chain breaks.

Open mufflers that could burn hemp line. (and your leg)

No ppe ever.

Chuck n ducks

Inexperienced untrained help often that would sometimes crush a climber rather than let the piece drop a little.

Work around high power lines all the time with no advice other than don't touch them.

No lowering devices but wraps around tree trunks which was very inconsistent and damaging to ropes.

I could go on but maybe you get the point. Things have come a long way and are improving with constantly evolving ANSI standards and new certifications requiring training.

Refer to post number 30...sorry


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

clearance said:


> This is probably my biggest beef with the ISA, and many ISA types. The city mangager is like the public, they are often shocked to find out what the deal is. And the title goes right to some peoples pointy heads. I guess if you never did nothing you have to make yourself out to be important, its BS.



It is all we got and better than nothing which I existed with for over 2 decades.

A hack could claim to have all kinds of accurate information and kill all of someone's trees. The basics of the CA likely would not let that happen


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## clearance (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> It is all we got and better than nothing which I existed with for over 2 decades.
> 
> A hack could claim to have all kinds of accurate information and kill all of someone's trees. The basics of the CA likely would not let that happen



I guess so, but I know what I speak of bothers you as well. 

Your list of the old days made me think, golly, I still do some of that, freeclimbing, chuck n ducks, rope around the tree........But always ppe, and steelcores always.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

see ya tomorrow man.


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## Komitet (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.
> 
> If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.
> 
> ...



I think I forgot an entire sentence in my head, yes the gear and industry standards have improved, but the job itself is still as dangerous as it ever was, sure maybe your chainsaw won't burn through the rope as easily, but it's still just as sharp.

The only thing I don't like nowadays is all this new gear that's supposed to make things easier, people have more toys on their lines and belts than my kids have in their playroom. Too many points of failure IMO, maybe I'm just old school, newest thing I use is a Swabish, sp. and a micropulley. 

You do raise a lot of valid points, proper training out values gear any day.


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## TreeWhitelock (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> This is true. Where is the recognition? Certification. But is it good enough....definitely not.
> 
> A woman that used to be a vet and visits our Forestry Board meetings just passed the ISA cert after a few tries. Now the city has her advising them on tree matters. She passed a 100 multiple choice questions test. I passed it 18 years ago without studying (recertified 6 times) and already had over 22 years when I took it. I have worked on trees as well 40 years and she never has and is a heavy old woman so she never will.
> 
> ...



:agree2: You should have typed that in bold letters. Its amazing who can hide behind a piece of paper


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## TimberMcPherson (Feb 16, 2010)

Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.

Here in NZ there was the 40 hour week and SFA on TV. People had time to do things for themselves, and they had bored friends to help em. Alot more blue collars, guys with skills who shared skills with others. 

Now people have more money, less time and skills and have more other crap in there lives. The service industry is growing more all the time.

There might be more of us "doing it" when it comes to treework but there are more people expecting others to do it for them.


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## sgreanbeans (Feb 16, 2010)

:agree2:

To hit on an earlier point. We always train our competition.
That is in any service industry.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> :agree2:
> 
> To hit on an earlier point. We always train our competition.
> That is in any service industry.



Yes and I agree with Timber as well but now the training/information is so easily accessed and evolved that fewer people are working under jeopardizing or dangerous conditions due to this and the evolvement of technique and gear and equipment that .....my initial question....is this job (given the above facts) really that dangerous anymore? And IMO this is why there are so many more going into the biz. 

Yes we apprenticed back in the day but now you can easily get all the info in a short amount of time without the apprenticing aspect.


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## rob b (Feb 16, 2010)

With the great information age its like this every where. I rode and trained horses at a high level. There werent alot of trainers out there and credentials ment alot. Then if you could wisper to horses people would pay money for you to train there horse and the results would be a disaster. My local tree customers have been screwed by the magnetic sign guys and will not hire someone on price alone. If someone wants to low ball go ahead ill end up with more repeat business in the end.


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## treesquirrel (Feb 16, 2010)

*Take time to educate your customer*

Educating homeowners is a key. 

I go through a short tutorial with my clients when I quote. I point out the hazards, what steps that will be taken to avoid property damage, the level of skill required to do the job, and discuss the importance of tree specific insurance. I ALWAYS stress that landscape companies insurance will NOT cover tree incidents nor will some timber companies insurance that typically are felling trees out in the woods and not next to a residence.

When I leave I hope they make an informed decision, but unless I give them that information they may not be able to do so.


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## EdenT (Feb 16, 2010)

I think it is just as dangerous today as it ever was, relative to the amount of risk you are willing to take in your everyday life. Back when you started, life was more dangerous day to day than now and so the acceptable risk level was higher. You simply have the memory of the shift in perspective. Ask yourself, would you climb tomorrow using the methods you illustrated in post #30. Of course not, your not willing to take the same risk you took 40 years ago! Of course your (personal) perspective on climbing has evolved, but so has your (societal) perspective on risk. 

So if 98% of people thought climbing was nuts in 1970, 98% of people probably think so today despite the increases in safety and education. The abundance of education simply means that the 2% willing to have a crack at it have a greater chance of doing something better for trees and the people who live with them.


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## treesquirrel (Feb 16, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.



Good point. I come from a generation that did not hire anyone to do anything unless absolutely necessary. My dad and I were felling trees when I was a young boy. Granted my dad and I were not climbing but we could drop a tree wherever we wanted to. Tractor, rope, chainsaw, wedges and a eye for how one will fall.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

You both are making my point....Eden, your 2 percenters have exploded into ....?....maybe 10 maybe 20 percenters that will give it a go. Once they search for info...they are more likely to stay there now than in the past.


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## lxt (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.
> 
> If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.
> 
> ...



WOW, You sound like my dad (good thing) the one thing back in those days vet was that you had to physically be able to do the work, remember you were working with the best the industry had at that time!!!

Now a days........tell a trainee to climb something & its "awe the bucket can reach that", they dont want to do it manually!! this is why spider lifts have become a booming industry, due to being competitive & the fact most entering this trade dont wanna climb!!

Personally I still like climbing (not as often), but todays high tech, cool gadgets & youtube knowledge bring about different hazards!! I see more groundies with cell phones in their hands, saws cut alot faster than in the 60`s or 70`s, & as far as safety goes...........Id have to say it has gotten safer for those of us who have been in the trade & remember what it use to be like, but for the wannabes its far more dangerous.....read the TCIA stats page.

Lets face it....the general public for the most part thinks of us as tree cudders, so the guy layed off from the mill, car lot, etc... with little or no respect for our trade, but the need for $$$$ goes out, with out a clue & becomes a tree guy..........he learns respect real quick, these types usually get out as quick as they got in!

As for the Certs......I just lost a state bid to a company with no Certs & from outta state!! Certification, as much as I promote it & try to get people to recognize its usefullness.........Honestly it means nothing!! atleast right now!





LXT...............


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## EdenT (Feb 16, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.
> 
> Here in NZ there was the 40 hour week and SFA on TV. People had time to do things for themselves, and they had bored friends to help em. Alot more blue collars, guys with skills who shared skills with others.
> 
> ...



I agree TV that more people are getting into business but that is probably down to both the federal and global economies than the availability of education or safety. You can no longer get work in a textile mill because workers in China are far cheaper to employ to make textiles. A huge number of unskilled and low skilled occupations have simply migrated across borders and oceans with the advent of economic globalization. So now you either work in technology or a service industry that can't be relocated.

As far as the 2% willing to try it is concerned, (sadly I have no factual data to quote), I doubt if I surveyed 100 people that I could get 10-20 of them to try going up a rope. I expect fewer than 10 would even have the fitness required to even try it.


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## lxt (Feb 16, 2010)

Treevet, yes this job is still as dangerous!! maybe more so! 

Look back in the day; 4kv was the big stuff, today 23kv is common! yes there are more toys to make it easier....BUT, the need for manual talent will always be needed & this is were the new generation fails.

yes they can get up there, but then what???, you cannot learn this trade & be professional at it with out hands on training!!!! there is no tree climbing simulator (not yet) that allows for that "controlled enviroment safe learning" experience.

I remember being told by GF`s "monkeys can do your job" what a scare tactic, I have yet to see it & those coming into this trade have rules/laws telling them what & how.....safety now is used to get out of doing the hard stuff!!

I can remember walking out on limbs over the primary to were if I fell....I was dragging the primary back to the tree, not now!! thats a no, no!!

the rules have made this trade (in line clearance) not so much safer....but, less involved in order to get more done quicker!!! funny how when something nasty comes up they go for the guys trained under the "old system" why is that?

I think of getting out of this trade alot Vet, but to do what? the work force has been scattered in a way Ive not seen, people are doing anything for a buck!! hopefully it will get better!!!


LXT................


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Hey.......it was a good run. Hope you socked it away!



Like I said earlier it is not all doom and despair such as this but it could be.

I think you need to get every cert you can acquire....you need to learn everything you can learn about field work, tree health, tree care and tree anatomy, physiology, etc etc. You need to have every piece of equipment the big boys have or have access to them. 

In other words you need to go out of your comfort zone to get to the top spots where those are the guys that are going to survive despite all these challenges. Maybe some day down the road it will get easier again.....but I doubt it.


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## rbtree (Feb 16, 2010)

Good discussion!

Nice to see some harmony here......

Even that old man of 61 (well, not yet, I reckon) is being nice.....

May he be wraptor'd up in wrapping paper on that big day....

:bday: in advance this time!!

I'll send him my extra AARP membership, and a bottle of Geritol.....


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

lxt said:


> Treevet, yes this job is still as dangerous!! maybe more so!
> 
> Look back in the day; 4kv was the big stuff, today 23kv is common! yes there are more toys to make it easier....BUT, the need for manual talent will always be needed & this is were the new generation fails.
> 
> ...



Not even remotely suggesting you get out of the trade LXT ....just the opposite. It is time to step up our game and win. The winner takes the biggest piece of meat.

Like mentioned earlier ....yes the best guys are still doing the stuff over the primaries but if you get pigeon holed into doing that and only extreme stuff from day to day.....well....


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## Dalmatian90 (Feb 16, 2010)

Semi-Random Thoughts:



> TimberMcPherson
> Aside from the hiccup in the economy, the world in general has become more service orientated. Think 30 years back. How many people you knew had other people mow there lawns, paint there house, trim there trees, gathered there own wood, grew vegetables etc.



That was one of two thoughts I had when I read the first post.

First:
In the country, folks were much more do-it-yourself. We still have just as many DIY'ers...it's just we've been overrun by urban refuges who, unlike my grandparents, moved from the cities (or college campuses) but still expect that someone else will do things for them. My grandparents / great-grandparents generation moved from urban areas to farms that made them and their kids jack of all trades types.

25 years ago a lawn service was reserved for only a few commercial properties around...and even then most of the commercial folks owned their own riding mower and had one of their employees mow the lawn. Residential lawns were the domain of the neighbor's kid. I honestly can only remember 1 person who had a true business of lawn care back in 1987 in my town. Today there has to be a dozen folks based in my town alone.

Second:
Trees got bigger. 

More trees in the suburbs, lots of suburbs founded post World War II...until the 1970s a lot of them probably didn't have many trees big enough to need a tree service.

Similarly in the cities, lots of growth in the 1870s -- 1930s, by the 1970s on you had century old trees that were now declining and needed more services then the same community fifty years before.



> EdenT
> So now you either work in technology or a service industry that can't be relocated.



And those are precious few.

Healthcare is probably the only well paying service that can't be relocated. 

Everything else is either under global pressure, or under illegal immigration pressure, both helping suppress wages for decades now.

That has a cascade effect. 

Farming is so capital intensive now, you don't see under-employed men going back to the land. 

You do see them in things like tree services. Need less start up cash and you get cash flow right away instead of after harvest. But a lot of them don't have a good business head or good understanding what they're doing. So they wing it, often underinsured and avoiding other fees and business taxes and not putting away money for the business' future or their own retirement -- costs that established firms face, and under cut the pricing not for reasons of efficiency or anything positive. They just work cheap.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

rbtree said:


> Good discussion!
> 
> Nice to see some harmony here......
> 
> ...



Geritol gladly accepted Roger, put some in my coffee every morning. Are we both really 61. Hell, I beat a 30 year old in a 2 hour 5 game racquetball match last night and I am not even sore now. Treemen rule!

Hey, when I hit 60 I went in to the local restaurant and was excited to be able to order from the senior citizen menu at a big discount.

Well the food comes and it about half of the usual order. I guess they figure you have forgotten what they used to give you lol.


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## rbtree (Feb 16, 2010)

Sorry for the thread derail....but my ideas came from Eli's whack commentary here:

http://www.youtube.com/rbtree#p/u/16/x2vCFKM9DcY




When you're as old as you and I, it's OK to brag....


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> What I am saying is it is actually safer and easier to actually DO it (not just read about it) with the gear, equipment, and all the instruction you can get from people like you and me on forums so......
> 
> this is why there are so many more people doing it and filling up the yellow pages and showing up to bid against you etc etc....and....
> 
> ...




Premium bucks? Maybe back before I got started and then it was most likely to working 12 hours a day ( and a few hours at night too) pushing for it.

You are talking about a lot of different things and it seems to come back to competition with others. That is an easy one to explain; there are a whole lot of people in this world and we all do something or at least try.
But to answer the broad question about obsolution you are going to have to define a few things. Like who is " we" ? 

Also you mentioned something about training the competition. Yeah that is a sticky one. You have to chalk that one up to " vicious circle" and that's all it is.

As far as the question of just any old body can read up and start to practice: God Bless America... I suppose.


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> Let me just give you a little contrast going back to 1969 and the gray area between you can fill in with your imagination.
> 
> If we had a takedown and most of the time even a big pruning job, we would start from the ground or maybe a small ladder and just spike right up to the top if it was a hundred feet or more or whatever...no tie ins until the top.
> 
> ...



Yes, its changed I would not do tree work under any of those circumstances... well not anymore!


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> :agree2:
> 
> To hit on an earlier point. We always train our competition.
> That is in any service industry.



:agree2:


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> Here is an example. The green climber has mastered getting up in and around in big trees from forums and a little time in the saddle. He has figured out knots and hitches in the Sherrill Catalogue. He just cannot figure how to take big wood out of a tree over a roof that is too far away to toss and no crotch to swing it off the roof.
> 
> He brings this up on a forum and in return he is told to get the gm on the roof and hook up the big wood like this with this equipment....



What do you have going on here? Looks interesting.


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## tree MDS (Feb 16, 2010)

*Random MDS thoughts....*

I think most of us know what it feels like to reluctantly give away some of our hard earned secrets in the course of simply trying to get some work done. It is a necessary evil I suppose. 

As far as the internet thing goes.... well, I was proficient at my job long before I came here, but I have learned some things here as well - so I would be a hypocrite to say much about a lawn guy gleaning info and trying to make the crossover. Not that I'm really above that.


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I think most of us know what it feels like to reluctantly give away some of our hard earned secrets in the course of simply trying to get some work done. It is a necessary evil I suppose.
> 
> As far as the internet thing goes.... well, I was proficient at my job long before I came here, but I have learned some things here as well - so I would be a hypocrite to say much about a lawn guy gleaning info and trying to make the crossover. Not that I'm really above that.




Man I started trees while I was cutting grass. I was 11, I did the lady behind me ( she was French) and cut down a dead dogwood. I would suppose every 11 year old boy would know a dogwood. I also did my English teacher's privets and took the dead out of her dogwood. I have to say I never really found it to confusing where to make the cuts but my tools sucked.
Between these two ladies and some others in the neighborhood I was kept amazed at what they were willing to get me to do.


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## tree MDS (Feb 16, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Man I started trees while I was cutting grass. I was 11, I did the lady behind me ( she was French) and cut down a dead dogwood. I would suppose every 11 year old boy would know a dogwood. I also did my English teacher's privets and took the dead out of her dogwood. I have to say I never really found it to confusing where to make the cuts but my tools sucked.
> Between these two ladies and some others in the neighborhood I was kept amazed at what they were willing to get me to do.



My twisted mind has me reading into this too much.... I hope


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## oldugly (Feb 16, 2010)

*Wow*

A lot of good points in this thread. Many I have been considering myself, and a few I have never thought of. I remember the hemp rope, and the heavy climbing saws, and I remember when only "real men" would even attempt our profession. Now when I see the women climbers...(God bless every one of them) and the "arm chair arborist" I wonder where it all went... right, or wrong not withstanding...just where it went.

I personally think the advent of much of our equipment, (spider lifts, buckets, etc.) has undermined much of the needed skill level to do our jobs...therefore opening up opportunities for the less skilled and many times less competent new people. It took real guts to do what we did then, maybe a little less now. 

I know of a couple of tree companies in my area that don't climb at all, sometimes I sub to them on a job or two, but I have my reservations about that anymore. It seems I build their reputation, and business, while my own suffers.

Lawn companies now offer tree phc. and pruning, and it does not set well with me at all, but the reality is the information is available to them to do the job, and the licensing and certification is easily attainable. Differentiating myself from them to my customers is increasingly difficult and casting myself in a bitter, and "backstabbing" persona. Landscapers are now tree trimmers, and tree trimmers are now arborists, and lawn mowers are both. Educating the public seems to be an insurmountable task with no future.

I had always thought that the future moves would be to more specialization, but in this economy, and the relative low cost of equipment...it is moved to more the other direction. The old-style tree trimmer will never be completely obsolete..but I can see a time coming when he is or will be only an employee of a lawn service, or the sub-division of a large conglomerate. I have been fortunate enough to work with some of the great old-timers, and I guess now I would be considered an old-timer myself. The end of a great era..


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## rob b (Feb 16, 2010)

We all need to roll with the punches and do what works best for our own situation. There will always be a need for someone who really knows what they are doing.


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> My twisted mind has me reading into this too much.... I hope



Sorry to leave your hopes dashed across the rocks and swept out to sea.

As with everything it all was educational.


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## treemandan (Feb 16, 2010)

rob b said:


> We all need to roll with the punches and do what works best for our own situation. There will always be a need for someone who really knows what they are doing.



And there will always be someone else who knows too.


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## rob b (Feb 16, 2010)

Thats called competition. You just need to make yourself stand out from the rest!


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## Blakesmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

Having been around this industry for less than a decade my opinion may hold less weight for you old timers but hearing you talk about the way things were to what I know they are now left me with a thought. 

You remember your first big climb? You remember that point were things started getting a little tricky and dangerous? I do and my first thought was, "What the #### do I think I'm doing here? I'm 60 feet off the ground with a rope holding me to a tree, gunning a chainsaw and watching a 500 lb top slowly start to come over and the rope attached to it is also attached to the tree that I'm attached to, and I'm about to die." It was the scariest experience of my life.

Add any trinket you want, read as many books as you can, watch some GB DVD's, it don't matter, this job is dangerous and for me, that point was driven home on that first big tree. I don't think there's many men who have gone through that experience that will ever do it again. We have, and we do. The education material is much more easily accessed these days and might inspire more people to "try" this occupation, but I don't think the percentage of people that continue in this line of work after their big moment will ever change.


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## tree md (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm still waiting for them to come out with a hovercraft to do this stuff... Then I might become obsolete...


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## tree MDS (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm starting to think I should buy some lawnmowers and do the tree thing on the side.

The bad part about all this certification crap is that its almost becoming a cloak for hacks to hide behind (in certain cases) .... anybody with some book smarts can pass a test, doesnt make them an arborist. 

I'm not a "CA" (yet), but I know I'm better at pruning trees than most (if not all) of the people I've worked with over the years. But as it stands I cant prune a branch in my state.


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## rob b (Feb 16, 2010)

Actions speak louder than tests! If you can do the work and talk the talk screw the rest.Oh Yeah I have a four year Degree in plant science


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## Bermie (Feb 16, 2010)

Well...from the female point of view...(hi ugly...!)

The availability of lighterweight equipment and pulleys and portawraps and stuff certainly has enabled me to be in the biz, even a 200t is lighter than an 020t than I started with...Buckets are nice but I climb most of my stuff.

I remember watching tree surgeons over here in the 70's and 80's and from what I can remember (because I was soo young ) there is no way I could do this work with the equipment of those days, so yes 'vet...I think you are right, new equipment has broadened the entry to this profession.

However the crunch comes when your feet leave the ground...can you handle it? The big rig, bit of a breeze...Did I do my calculations right...#### I'm a long way up...if it's not a bucket job that will keep the wannabe's out of it.

Maybe its heading towards more of a specialization process...climber specialist, not just a bucket babe...???
I have just had three sub jobs from a landscape co. for takedowns in tight spots that they couldn't do...had to be climbed and lowered, no way they have the staff or equipment to do it...nice.

You guys will always have the upper hand for big nasty knarly stuff, and most of the big logging...sheer size and strength, I don't even want to go NEAR that.
But I got the lock for the treetop tip toe job!


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## oldugly (Feb 16, 2010)

Bermie...God bless all the female climbers that have entered into the field in recent years/decades. I've watched some of the women climbers in the work climb competitions...some of them are far better strategically, and mechanically than I will ever be, or ever was. All I meant to say was when I was starting out, the saws were heavier, the gear was all leather, (and much heavier), and the job was not gender appropriate for women. As a father of four daughters, I would be very proud if any of them pursued this profession. 

On the second note...when you talk of climbing for ..or subcontracting to.. landscapers...you are hitting the point of what I was trying to say...we are being worked into a subdivision of a larger professional group. Instead of treecare professionals being in our own market we are competing with landscapers, lawn mowers, and gardeners. We are a dying and depreciating breed that has become a sub to a larger group. The easy jobs, and small trims are now easily performed by lawncare crews...and since I don't know bluegrass from crabgrass...well the future doesn't look like it gets any easier.

The points made about equipment, information, and certification availability hit home when there is no work, and the mortgage is due, and young trimmers who have never climbed a tree ... have work...and their families are fed and healthy.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

rbtree said:


> Sorry for the thread derail....but my ideas came from Eli's whack commentary here:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/rbtree#p/u/16/x2vCFKM9DcY
> 
> ...



good stuff


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

oldugly said:


> Bermie...God bless all the female climbers that have entered into the field in recent years/decades. I've watched some of the women climbers in the work climb competitions...some of them are far better strategically, and mechanically than I will ever be, or ever was. All I meant to say was when I was starting out, the saws were heavier, the gear was all leather, (and much heavier), and the job was not gender appropriate for women. As a father of four daughters, I would be very proud if any of them pursued this profession.
> 
> On the second note...when you talk of climbing for ..or subcontracting to.. landscapers...you are hitting the point of what I was trying to say...we are being worked into a subdivision of a larger professional group. Instead of treecare professionals being in our own market we are competing with landscapers, lawn mowers, and gardeners. We are a dying and depreciating breed that has become a sub to a larger group. The easy jobs, and small trims are now easily performed by lawncare crews...and since I don't know bluegrass from crabgrass...well the future doesn't look like it gets any easier.
> 
> The points made about equipment, information, and certification availability hit home when there is no work, and the mortgage is due, and young trimmers who have never climbed a tree ... have work...and their families are fed and healthy.



So many of these discussions gravitate to the Certs. Top climbers like Bermie and others will still have niche work but can that sustain a company that must be big enough to pay the bills?

Just received my "pledge" from the ISA via email. Have been expecting it for a year now. Haven't had the time to review it but I will HAVE to sign it as cities around here are gravitating to excluding non Certed arbs. It has happened and likely will increase in occurrence. This may take the Cert to a new improved level.....but it may take it to new low depths. Stay tuned.


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## Bermie (Feb 16, 2010)

oldugly said:


> Bermie...God bless all the female climbers that have entered into the field in recent years/decades. I've watched some of the women climbers in the work climb competitions...some of them are far better strategically, and mechanically than I will ever be, or ever was. All I meant to say was when I was starting out, the saws were heavier, the gear was all leather, (and much heavier), and the job was not gender appropriate for women. As a father of four daughters, I would be very proud if any of them pursued this profession.
> 
> On the second note...when you talk of climbing for ..or subcontracting to.. landscapers...you are hitting the point of what I was trying to say...we are being worked into a subdivision of a larger professional group. Instead of treecare professionals being in our own market we are competing with landscapers, lawn mowers, and gardeners. We are a dying and depreciating breed that has become a sub to a larger group. The easy jobs, and small trims are now easily performed by lawncare crews...and since I don't know bluegrass from crabgrass...well the future doesn't look like it gets any easier.
> 
> The points made about equipment, information, and certification availability hit home when there is no work, and the mortgage is due, and young trimmers who have never climbed a tree ... have work...and their families are fed and healthy.



I totally agree, times were different, you are right! 

Over here we are beginning to draw up regulations for the horticultural industry, and have separated TREES out as a specialty profession, it will be seperate from the general 'Landscape Gardener' which encompasses most activities of installation and maintenance of landscapes. We stopped at pruning of hedges and shrubs for landscapers, anything to do with trees will be a tree surgeon.

Too many landscape maintenance companies are hacking the trees, a friend of mine lost a bid on some takedowns, the landscapers got it, he drove by the other day and laughed when he saw the masons on site repairing the roof...his $2000 bid looks cheap now in light of the roof repairs! (our roofs are stone slate cemented together on top of a timber frame...drop a tree on it and cracks...and its the primary water catch for every house!)


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## tree md (Feb 16, 2010)

Bermie said:


> I totally agree, times were different, you are right!
> 
> Over here we are beginning to draw up regulations for the horticultural industry, and have separated TREES out as a specialty profession, it will be seperate from the general 'Landscape Gardener' which encompasses most activities of installation and maintenance of landscapes. We stopped at pruning of hedges and shrubs for landscapers, anything to do with trees will be a tree surgeon.
> 
> Too many landscape maintenance companies are hacking the trees, a friend of mine lost a bid on some takedowns, the landscapers got it, he drove by the other day and laughed when he saw the masons on site repairing the roof...his $2000 bid looks cheap now in light of the roof repairs! (our roofs are stone slate cemented together on top of a timber frame...drop a tree on it and cracks...and its the primary water catch for every house!)



I haven't researched it in awhile but it used to be that landscapers where only insured up to 7 feet off the ground. That's what used to separate us from them back in the day. Not to say that landscapers can't insure themselves to do trees or the HO would even bother to check but they used to be relegated to shrubs and ornamental trees.


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

tree md said:


> I haven't researched it in awhile but it used to be that landscapers where only insured up to 7 feet off the ground. That's what used to separate us from them back in the day. Not to say that landscapers can't insure themselves to do trees or the HO would even bother to check but they used to be relegated to shrubs and ornamental trees.



That is still true I think.

May even include Wcomp


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## Bermie (Feb 16, 2010)

tree md said:


> I haven't researched it in awhile but it used to be that landscapers where only insured up to 7 feet off the ground. That's what used to separate us from them back in the day. Not to say that landscapers can't insure themselves to do trees or the HO would even bother to check but they used to be relegated to shrubs and ornamental trees.



That's what I understand the US standard was...we have NONE!!!
Insurance does not differentiate over here and you need show no certificates, just walk in and say I need insurance for abc...and they'll sell it to you, no problem.
We discussed the 7/8' height and decided that someone who doesn't know what they are doing can still mess up a little tree...especially if it is destined to become a bigger one in the overall landscape...


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## Juicemang (Feb 16, 2010)

I learned how to climb almost exclusively off this site. The only other info I had was the Tree Climbers Companion. I have never worked for another tree service. I have only seen other people climb a few times in person. I had limited saw experience from working at a country club before I started on my own. In 3 years I went from not knowing a thing about trees to actually being a skilled and safe climber. My first climb wasn't the safest thing I have ever done. But I quickly picked up on some of the things you guys preach here like safety and quality of work. I gradually became more comfortable in the tree and have become pretty good on spikes and without. I have done some pretty technical rigging but I usually take smaller pieces then I have too. I would probably be more comfortable rigging larger pieces if i was working on the ground for a few years. Its weird, I have taught a couple of people how to use my port-a-wrap, but I have never even used it myself haha. So in short this site can train your competition. In a few years I went from nothing to having my own saws, climbing and rigging gear, f350, dump trailer, and a dingo with branch manager. I'm also Insured as of 02/01/10 yay!!! am I not a hack anymore?? I have my first crane removal scheduled for this Saturday. I'm ####ting my pants but nobody knows that. Its going to be crazy fun... and whats life without a challenge??


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## treevet (Feb 16, 2010)

Juicemang said:


> I learned how to climb almost exclusively off this site. The only other info I had was the Tree Climbers Companion. I have never worked for another tree service. I have only seen other people climb a few times in person. I had limited saw experience from working at a country club before I started on my own. In 3 years I went from not knowing a thing about trees to actually being a skilled and safe climber. My first climb wasn't the safest thing I have ever done. But I quickly picked up on some of the things you guys preach here like safety and quality of work. I gradually became more comfortable in the tree and have become pretty good on spikes and without. I have done some pretty technical rigging but I usually take smaller pieces then I have too. I would probably be more comfortable rigging larger pieces if i was working on the ground for a few years. Its weird, I have taught a couple of people how to use my port-a-wrap, but I have never even used it myself haha. So in short this site can train your competition. In a few years I went from nothing to having my own saws, climbing and rigging gear, f350, dump trailer, and a dingo with branch manager. I'm also Insured as of 02/01/10 yay!!! am I not a hack anymore?? I have my first crane removal scheduled for this Saturday. I'm ####ting my pants but nobody knows that. Its going to be crazy fun... and whats life without a challenge??



Good luck, make sure you have a qualified op.
Talk about ###ting your pants....2 years of working without insurance...

Do you know anything about trees yet, or do you just do removals?


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## clearance (Feb 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> do you just do removals?



treevet, I have heard this comment before, as in "removal artists", used in a condecending manner. I don't like it.

Now, this guy pays us compliments, and you slag him. But his posting proves your point totally.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 16, 2010)

Juicemang said:


> I learned how to climb almost exclusively off this site. The only other info I had was the Tree Climbers Companion. I have never worked for another tree service. I have only seen other people climb a few times in person. I had limited saw experience from working at a country club before I started on my own. In 3 years I went from not knowing a thing about trees to actually being a skilled and safe climber. My first climb wasn't the safest thing I have ever done. But I quickly picked up on some of the things you guys preach here like safety and quality of work. I gradually became more comfortable in the tree and have become pretty good on spikes and without. I have done some pretty technical rigging but I usually take smaller pieces then I have too. I would probably be more comfortable rigging larger pieces if i was working on the ground for a few years. Its weird, I have taught a couple of people how to use my port-a-wrap, but I have never even used it myself haha. So in short this site can train your competition. In a few years I went from nothing to having my own saws, climbing and rigging gear, f350, dump trailer, and a dingo with branch manager. I'm also Insured as of 02/01/10 yay!!! am I not a hack anymore?? I have my first crane removal scheduled for this Saturday. I'm ####ting my pants but nobody knows that. Its going to be crazy fun... and whats life without a challenge??



You sound very young and potentially dangerous if you pursue you eager endevors.
Did you really learn it all from here? Do your groundies know?
Be safe
Jeff
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 16, 2010)

BTW, some guy's are natural's at it. It just comes to them like the cabinet maker man who quit and went to climbing and is happy and well off.
Jeff


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## tree md (Feb 16, 2010)

Juicemang said:


> I learned how to climb almost exclusively off this site. The only other info I had was the Tree Climbers Companion. I have never worked for another tree service. I have only seen other people climb a few times in person. I had limited saw experience from working at a country club before I started on my own. In 3 years I went from not knowing a thing about trees to actually being a skilled and safe climber. My first climb wasn't the safest thing I have ever done. But I quickly picked up on some of the things you guys preach here like safety and quality of work. I gradually became more comfortable in the tree and have become pretty good on spikes and without. I have done some pretty technical rigging but I usually take smaller pieces then I have too. I would probably be more comfortable rigging larger pieces if i was working on the ground for a few years. Its weird, I have taught a couple of people how to use my port-a-wrap, but I have never even used it myself haha. So in short this site can train your competition. In a few years I went from nothing to having my own saws, climbing and rigging gear, f350, dump trailer, and a dingo with branch manager. I'm also Insured as of 02/01/10 yay!!! am I not a hack anymore?? I have my first crane removal scheduled for this Saturday. I'm ####ting my pants but nobody knows that. Its going to be crazy fun... and whats life without a challenge??



If this is your first crane removal you might want to let them know. They want your business and don't want you to tear anything up. They would probably send out a site manager to work with you and the operator. Someone who knows how to do trees with a crane. A good one can tell you every cut to make for the most efficient, and safe removal.

Good luck!


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 17, 2010)

Did you you a job walk with with the operator, know what size you need? 
Jeff:monkey:


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## Juicemang (Feb 17, 2010)

I didn't have insurance the first year because It was all side work/under the table. The second year caught me off guard with how much work I got. Had I known what I was getting into last year I would have got the insurance ball rolling sooner. I still hold a part time job outside of tree work. I do make an effort to do more then elevate and never top, which is what most companies do around here. Elevate if necessary, remove deadwood, branches with defects, sprouts, little crown thinning would be a usual trim for me. I wouldn't consider myself a removal artist. I'm realistic ive only been doing this a few years. If I thought I was hot #### I would be posting videos. I just thought I should chime in since you were wondering if this site has taught anyone to climb.

As for the crane job. The owner of the crane company will be operating. He has experience with tree removals. He knows I haven't worked with a crane before and is going to work with me. When I said I was ####ting my pants Its just nerves... theres always nerves before you do something new.

Yes I learned everything from here. I only work with 2 people on the ground, my brother and best friend both of which I trained. Its pretty clear with the information on this site what is safe and whats not. I have seen a couple outfits work and I would question there safety. Who is a better teacher some alcoholic bum?? Or watching all of regs, ekka, and all the other video posters. I would rather learn from the best even if its not in person.


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## treevet (Feb 17, 2010)

clearance said:


> treevet, I have heard this comment before, as in "removal artists", used in a condecending manner. I don't like it.
> 
> Now, this guy pays us compliments, and you slag him. But his posting proves your point totally.



You are just taking it that way Clearance.

My original premise included our competition learning tree care as well from the forum and since he did not mention that or mention doing anything but removals, I wanted to know if this was the case. Plenty to be learned as far as tree care on the forum.

This actually may be one of the best forms of learning even for the more advanced arborist. You read and develop theory and you post and you can get challenged immediately if that theory is iffy. It makes you research to come up with the goods to prove your point.


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## treeslayer (Feb 17, 2010)

The more I know, the more I can learn.

This site NEVER stops educating me, I am way more informed about proper tree care and the more time I spend here, the more I learn.


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## teamtree (Feb 17, 2010)

At the end of the day, you can look at pics and videos all you want, but it still takes some steady nerves, clear thinking and some experience to do what we do. 

I have tried to get guys to do what I do in the bucket and they can't do it. Of if they do, they are slow or dangerous if not both.


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## EdenT (Feb 18, 2010)

*Cool sentiment*



treeslayer said:


> The more I know, the more I can learn.
> 
> This site NEVER stops educating me, I am way more informed about proper tree care and the more time I spend here, the more I learn.



Someone much brighter than me once said - 

In order to learn you must first recognize and acknowledge your ignorance.

Sometimes hard to do on a public forum where ego's and reputations are on the line!!!


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## outofmytree (Feb 20, 2010)

I am typing a little slower at the moment as my right hand is still sore from a wee tap I took on Friday. Took the top off a 27 metre Norfolk Island Pine at 20 metres and put it into a DZ 6 metres long. When we popped the top my off sider let it run exactly as instructed but the "wee bump" made my hand slip from the polestrap and under the running rigging. There will always be a place in this profession for those with the gonads to do the work that leaves others with suspicious stains in their longjohns. Add a little education and the appropriate local licenses to the mix and you have a man (or woman!) who will always be employed.

Actually this thread would be moot if the industry was more regulated. OMG OMG OMG. Did I just say the "r" word?


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 20, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> I am typing a little slower at the moment as my right hand is still sore from a wee tap I took on Friday. Took the top off a 27 metre Norfolk Island Pine at 20 metres and put it into a DZ 6 metres long. When we popped the top my off sider let it run exactly as instructed but the "wee bump" made my hand slip from the polestrap and under the running rigging. There will always be a place in this profession for those with the gonads to do the work that leaves others with suspicious stains in their longjohns. Add a little education and the appropriate local licenses to the mix and you have a man (or woman!) who will always be employed.
> 
> Actually this thread would be moot if the industry was more regulated. OMG OMG OMG. Did I just say the "r" word?



I wondered why you aint been around. Must of been quite a rush!. Glad your OK. 
Jeff
ps. Metres to feet makes me think too hard-


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 20, 2010)

treevet said:


> What I am saying is it is actually safer and easier to actually DO it (not just read about it) with the gear, equipment, and all the instruction you can get from people like you and me on forums so......



I think that it is easier to train, some of the work is getting easier then it was 15-20 years ago, but the pansies still winnow out in the brush dragging.

One of the reasons there are so many new people starting up is that it is so much easier to get equipment these days. The used market is very reasonable, 10k for a beat up, but servicable dump/chipper combo.

I know of a "nice" one-ton and chuck-n-duck going for ~7k. Just needs a little work, sez my very honest buddy...

Dorshak's been saying they want to down-size for over a year now....


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## outofmytree (Feb 20, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I wondered why you aint been around. Must of been quite a rush!. Glad your OK.
> Jeff
> ps. Metres to feet makes me think too hard-



Been flat out working to tell the truth. Scarcely time to scratch my proverbial...

3 1/3 feet to the metre so I was hooked in at 66 feet with 22 feet of top above me and only 19 feet of drop zone to plant it in. I forgot to mention the solar panels, grass trees, wishing well, 40 year old tile roof, asbestos shed roof and the fact that norfolks have fruit like pines which, when green, weigh about 1 1/2 kgs (3 1/2 lbs). If you stop the top hard the fruit keeps going and will punch through roof tiles easy as so its let er run and slow down close to the ground. 

Plenty of good climbers here would eat that job up but not the sort of thing a wannabe would do twice assuming he/she lived through the first time.

And yes it was a fun ride.


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## derwoodii (Feb 20, 2010)

Ahh Norfolk's you forgot to mention the sticky gooey sap that fouls your gear and hands for the whole job.
Just sittin picking the sap from a Moreton Fig outofmy hair as trimming one up early today, for I hate say "a new red light camera" the tree hinder it's view. It took some souls searching to do the job. 
Hope your hand soon gets well.


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## EdenT (Feb 20, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Ahh Norfolk's you forgot to mention the sticky gooey sap that fouls your gear and hands for the whole job.
> Just sittin picking the sap from a Moreton Fig outofmy hair as trimming one up early today, for I hate say "a new red light camera" the tree hinder it's view. It took some souls searching to do the job.
> Hope your hand soon gets well.



Ha, at last, a justification for lopping a tree. If you had done it correctly you could have profuse epicormic growth filling the viewfinder of that camera within a couple of months. 

Nah, on second thoughts speeding motorists already cause too much damage to tree's. Why should the tree suffer just because someone can't spare the time to stop for a red light!


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## treevet (Feb 21, 2010)

Here is another reason our job has become easier and safer. Also likely why more enter this safer more evolved field. The meeting of the best climbers with manufacturers of the best equipment available and the results have benefited all of us.

http://itcc.isa-arbor.com/History/history.aspx


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## outofmytree (Feb 21, 2010)

Easier and safer is a good thing TV. As you know all we need to do as professionals (in any field) is continue to self educate and we will be ahead of 90% of the competition.

I had a good chat with the head of Arb studies in WA. There are less than 10 cert III graduates per year here and yet there are 400 registered companies (and at least that many fly-by-night outfits) which is 2.5% of employees that have decent training. Providing that a business markets itself correctly this is an edge worth tens of thousands of dollars.

Or we could push to regulate both business owners and tradespeople in order to raise work standards all over..... Eeeeeeek! Did I just say the "r" word!?!?!?! :jawdrop:


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## underwor (Feb 21, 2010)

Don't get around too often any more, but this thread is really interesting. I started out in "67" (1967 that is) and like tree vet have seen a lot of change. I have learned a lot from this and other sites over the years. The day I quit learning and it isn't fun I will probably quit. I particularly liked Tree Squirrels comment about teaching our customers. We do need to make our service different and hopefully more desirable than our competition. As we have all seen in the TV ads, a perception of improved quality does command a higher price. Look at the shoes that Michael Jordan endorsed as opposed to those made in the same sweat shops, but sold at Target. Often times the quality is perceived, rather than actual. Notice how often a chainsaw is worth more if there is customer support for repair and advice? Are you planning on buying a lemon? Most likely, you just want that insurance that it is there if you need it. If your customer understands how your knowledge of Tree, shrubs, turf, equipment, and techniques, all fit into them having a healthy landscape, you are definitely worth more than the hack that knows how to start the saw and has a big truck.

Wulkowicz, who many of you know and have probably been frustrated by like me, once said that "If your only tool is a saw, your only result is a log."

If anyone has read this site for many years and not learned to be a better treeman at the least, then they weren't trying too hard. 

Bob


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## treevet (Feb 21, 2010)

underwor said:


> Don't get around too often any more, but this thread is really interesting. I started out in "67" (1967 that is) and like tree vet have seen a lot of change. I have learned a lot from this and other sites over the years. The day I quit learning and it isn't fun I will probably quit. I particularly liked Tree Squirrels comment about teaching our customers. We do need to make our service different and hopefully more desirable than our competition. As we have all seen in the TV ads, a perception of improved quality does command a higher price. Look at the shoes that Michael Jordan endorsed as opposed to those made in the same sweat shops, but sold at Target. Often times the quality is perceived, rather than actual. Notice how often a chainsaw is worth more if there is customer support for repair and advice? Are you planning on buying a lemon? Most likely, you just want that insurance that it is there if you need it. If your customer understands how your knowledge of Tree, shrubs, turf, equipment, and techniques, all fit into them having a healthy landscape, you are definitely worth more than the hack that knows how to start the saw and has a big truck.
> 
> Wulkowicz, who many of you know and have probably been frustrated by like me, once said that "If your only tool is a saw, your only result is a log."
> 
> ...



Haven't seen you for a while and good to see you Bob. Don't be a stranger


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## capetrees (Feb 21, 2010)

The gear may be making the job easier and safer but the one thing we all have that most don't is a lack of fear of heights and lack of fear of climbing trees with sharp tools. Most people would NEVER think of doing it even with all the best gear in the world. Thats one edge I know I will always have over most. Even some guys getting into the biz are still reluctant to get into a tree, prefering to be "safe" in a bucket truck. Can't get a bucket everywhere!


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## underwor (Feb 21, 2010)

Do you folks watch the show undercover boss? Just watched it again and the one thing I noticed about all the shows was that the difference between a successful store and just average is always the customer satisfaction. If the customers are happy, they come back. Generally these are in stores where the workers are happy. And so the Boss is happy. I notice that the students that I get to know very well, hometown, family, likes, dislikes, etc., are the ones that do the best and that I hear from for years. They give me trouble, in a likeable way, they challenge me with their questions, once they are out of school, they come to me with questions and answer mine about issues in their home area. 

These students are my customers. I am the boss for a couple of years. I may not get a lot of return customers, but I get satisfied ones that give good referrals.


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## tree md (Feb 22, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I think that it is easier to train, some of the work is getting easier then it was 15-20 years ago, but the pansies still winnow out in the brush dragging.
> 
> One of the reasons there are so many new people starting up is that it is so much easier to get equipment these days. The used market is very reasonable, 10k for a beat up, but servicable dump/chipper combo.
> 
> ...



Some of us have been around here almost that long you old focker! :hmm3grin2orange:

underwor, Great posts. Yes I do watch under cover boss and love it. Thankfully, I work close enough with my guys that I am the overt boss... Great to hear from you!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 22, 2010)

Welcome back Bobby!



> Some of us have been around here almost that long you old focker!


When I first started on these boards I thought it was mostly a bunch of kids. I've been pleasantly surprised, on a number of occasions, as to how many of "us" are my contemporaries and even senior to me.

Look at Heffe the Terrible, he must be around 63 or so


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## underwor (Feb 22, 2010)

63 is not old!!!!!!

Glad to be back. I have been lurking lately, just quiet for once. Hard to believe for those of you who know me, I know.


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## outofmytree (Feb 22, 2010)

Ditto on the client education point. I often stop to quote a job and spend as much as an hour there talking trees. I used to get frustrated with myself for being so inefficient with my time until I noticed a direct corellation between repeat/referred work and the clients who chat the longest. Now I let the quote be more like a visit between friends and reap both the reward of good conversation and good business.

Oh and nice to hear from you Underwor. I recall your contributions in another thread on another forum some years ago which led me to my first "aha moment" regarding CODIT.


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## S Mc (Feb 22, 2010)

underwor said:


> ... I notice that the students that I get to know very well, hometown, family, likes, dislikes, etc., are the ones that do the best and that I hear from for years. *They give me trouble*, in a likeable way, they challenge me with their questions, once they are out of school, they come to me with questions and answer mine about issues in their home area.
> 
> These students are my customers. I am the boss for a couple of years. I may not get a lot of return customers, but I get satisfied ones that give good referrals.




Bob, are my ears burning here?  I am one of those "satisfied customers" that recommend and return as often as possible.

And this also correlates to how we sell ourselves to clients and potential clients. Let them know you are fully informed on their landscape, not just their trees, but everything. Be the "go to" professional who has the answers.

As times change and new products come out, we have to change and adapt with them. An unfortunate side effect, IMHO, of some of the devices that have made ascent easier is that there are some people up trees who simply shouldn't be there. Climbing and trimming trees is an art as much as a skill. Knowing how to run a chainsaw or being fearless at heights is not enough.

David relates some of the people coming into the industry to some of the people who go out and buy all the "bad boy" attire for looking like a biker...it's a facade. Anyone can go out and buy the attire to appear like a road racer...again, it doesn't make them one. But it does "flood the market" and makes manufacturers very happy. 

David makes climbing look very easy and, after all, anyone can go buy a chainsaw. But at the end of the day, you want to leave the client knowing they got the best deal for the money...a job well done, performed as promised, by people with whom they enjoy conversing. Not someone who they can't wait to get off their property.

Sylvia


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## Ed Roland (Feb 22, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Oh and nice to hear from you Underwor. I recall your contributions in another thread on another forum some years ago which led me to my first "aha moment" regarding CODIT.



I am very fortunate to have the opportunity to learn from Professor Bob as he attends our 2-3x weekly coffee klutch in which myself and a few others  discuss advanced arb concepts. Good to see you back on the forums OP. 



underwor said:


> These students are my customers. I am the boss for a couple of years. I may not get a lot of return customers, but I get satisfied ones that give good referrals.



It's your unique slant on topics that keep them interesting. The Wulkowicz data you shared on "pre-girdling" was especially good as it seemed to help me wrap my mind around some of the thoughts being expressed in that "Hurricane" thread. Meeting you here on AS and then having Sylvia introduce you to our study group has been worth more than 10 Ropetek Wraptors!



treevet said:


> there are gonna be a whole lot more now that joe schmoe just lost his engineering job.
> 
> Not really looking for an answer here....just stating a dilemma. Are we, from day to day, training our own competition....and is this the dangerous job that should bring premium bucks....anymore?



Let them join our industry. The work will cull the herd. It simply is not enough to pick through the information provided on the forums to become proficient enough to compete with dedicated students of the game. Without the passion to learn or the humility to continue to learn they will not be able to compete long term. The potential client that chooses a cheap hack over my services is not someone I want to work for anyway.


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## underwor (Feb 22, 2010)

Thank you for all the kind words folks. You do realize that I am going to be impossible to live with for a while now.

Sylvia made a good point about being the go to person for all landscape issues. The trees, shrubs, grass and flowers are all parts of the natural system. The cultural practices needed to maintain each also affect all the others. If we do not know that proper watering of a flowerbed around a tree can also lead to rot developing in the root crown of the tree, or that fertilizing a lawn may over fertilize a tree, making it more susceptible to insect or fungal attack, then I is going to be very hard to make recommendations on anything in the future. 
On top of this we add the social ecosystem of politics, ethnic traditions, neighbor interactions and more, and you have a real complicated mess. Also very challenging for those who are trying to do a good job in the business. 
Who has the go to guy been in the past? Surveys show that it is the garden center! I know some of these folks are very knowledgeable, but I also have worked in one years ago and while the advice was good for the plant they had in their hand as they left, it did not get into all the intricacies of getting it to survive with its neighbors in the system at home. 

Since I am semi-retired from teaching now, I am planning to devote more time to creating true arborists, those who facilitate the coexistence of people and trees. To this end I am trying to put together some training sessions that could be offered to groups of tree care providers and their clients to show each group how complicated a web we weave when first we try to create a total landscape. I also want them to realize that this is a specialized "profession" based on the concepts of plant health care. And that plant health care is not just a rolled over spray program from the 60's, but a landscape design and maintenance plan based on ecological, cultural, chemical and social principles. The end result will be an "Owner's Manual for Your Landscape" that will lead the homeowner, with the aid of the proper professionals on the path to a "perfect" landscape. 
You will notice that the name of my enterprise is Underwood and *Associates*. I do not know it all yet. I need help, particularly on those pretty colored weeds that people plant around the trees, I think they are called flowers. 
Sylvia, Dave and I are trying to plan a first go at this near Missoula this spring. If you are interested in the outcome or would like to attend, let us know. It should be fun and informative. 

After my getting that long winded, I bet you wish you had kept quiet!!!


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## treeseer (Feb 22, 2010)

underwor said:


> You will notice that the name of my enterprise is Underwood and *Associates*.



I added Associates to my biz name some years ago for the same reason, and to point out Shigo's observation that tree guys need to know about all associated organisms.

Miss y tomorrow but way busy; who said this is the slow time of year?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 22, 2010)

treeseer said:


> I added Associates to my biz name some years ago for the same reason, and to point out Shigo's observation that tree guys need to know about all associated organisms.
> 
> Miss y tomorrow but way busy; who said this is the slow time of year?



I've thought of putting Sanborn & Associatives on my shingle...


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## treeseer (Feb 22, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've thought of putting Sanborn & Associatives on my shingle...


AssociatIVes? Why you need the IV, dehydrated?? 

I kinda regret adding it cuz it's hard to fit on a check, the most important place it goes...but still it's an important message that 1. we get help when we need it and 2 so do trees.


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## Jkebxjunke (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't normally venture into this topic area... But I will say I have the utmost respect for anyone who will do the jobs you guys do... I have seen some of the pics and vids on here and it is amazing... ( hope I didn't inflate anyone's egos to where their hat sized changed..lol). 

A few things have been brought up in the OP that that equipment and technology has improved things... yes it has... I have grown up on a farm and continue to do so myself... and things have gotten easier in a sense.. however now there is much much more stuff you have to maintain and buy and that cost $$$$$$ ... not $$ but $$$$$$$$$. you know what I mean.. then you add all the new regs into the mix... 
another thing is customer service... I used a local company years ago to remove a large old maple.... they were the only ones to return a phone call ..yes 3 companies at that time were local... and thats about all there was 2 of them would not even answer the phone let alone return a call... just leave it at the beep... and the companies are still around today. Well the one company that took the job came out was very professional.. climbed ect.. 
well I had 3 other trees that needed to be removed and one trimmed... told them just leave the wood in chunks and dont worry bout the stumps or even bother with the branches... well the person they sent out to do the estimate... didn't have all her equipment or even a pen... or her phone.. it was the wife or girlfriend.. and she didn't listen to a word I said.. ( didn't even have a business card) was more worried about the access for the bucket trucks and said since they are maples the stumps had to be ground... needless to say they didn't get anymore work from me... oh ant the thing that really sealed the deal of them not doing the work .. was the saying to just "top" the tree instead of trim it... 
correct me if i am wrong.. but isn't "topping" a bad thing now? My parents had that done to several of the trees here years ago.. and they don't exist anymore... rotted from the top down and dropped chunks.


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## treevet (Feb 22, 2010)

treeseer said:


> I added Associates to my biz name some years ago for the same reason, and to point out Shigo's observation that tree guys need to know about all associated organisms.



Yes, Alex was referring to the associates of trees in his company name not people.


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## treevet (Feb 22, 2010)

treevet said:


> Yes, Alex was referring to the associates of trees in his company name not people.



Let me qualify that....he was referring to the trees' associates (which could be, at times, people)


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## underwor (Feb 22, 2010)

Had an opportunity to go to one of Alex's sessions in Portsmouth a few years back. He had a first name basis acquaintance with all the associates of trees, from man through bacteria. And he got along fine with all of them. A real loss to the industry.


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## treevet (Feb 22, 2010)

I chased him all over the east and midwest for almost 20 years for seminars. It is unfortunate many never met him and have the wrong impression of him. Everyone was on a first name basis with him if they felt qualified to have one. Many perceive him as having a big ego which is foolish.

Wonder if the next messiah will appear in our lifetime. Thought Coder might be the one, but he seems a bit of the recluse.


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## treevet (Feb 24, 2010)

Guess Underwood didn't agree with that post....oh well.

Back to the topic...In the most recent TCIA Mag. in the deaths and injuries section the following appeared indicating a few of the incidents of non experienced people delving into our profession...

1. Mass. Firefighters rescue a "professional" tree cutter who "was wearing some safety equipment but was "missing straps and ROPE" and at 50 feet he stopped moving to not "risk falling" and waited to be rescued.

2. 31 year old Ohio man cutting a tree at a golf course was killed when he got the tree "stuck" in another tree which shed a limb when he went under it bashing him in the head.

3. Man electrocuted/killed in NY while pruning his own tree under primaries.

4. 63 year old LANDSCAPER in Ohio was struck by a limb from the tree he was working in and killed.


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## underwor (Feb 24, 2010)

Treevet

I agree about Shigo completely. Great guy. Coder I have heard a few times and really enjoyed, but as you say he does not get out a lot at least in my neck of the woods.


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## underwor (Feb 24, 2010)

I don't think I would want to try palm pruning. Have you noticed how many people are killed spiking up palms and getting mashed by the fronds dropping down over them? Luckily it is not a big problem in ND. 

One of those jobs that looks easy to get into, just a saddle, spurs and saw, but ends up bad very often. It would really pay to put in a false crotch with a pulley at the top, so you could lower yourself to the ground after you cut your lanyard loose. Be sure it is not a steel core lanyard. This might not even work, as I say my experience in palms ended when I did the removal in the Dean of Education's office at WIU in the '80s.


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## outofmytree (Feb 24, 2010)

underwor said:


> I don't think I would want to try palm pruning. Have you noticed how many people are killed spiking up palms and getting mashed by the fronds dropping down over them? Luckily it is not a big problem in ND.
> 
> One of those jobs that looks easy to get into, just a saddle, spurs and saw, but ends up bad very often. It would really pay to put in a false crotch with a pulley at the top, so you could lower yourself to the ground after you cut your lanyard loose. Be sure it is not a steel core lanyard. This might not even work, as I say my experience in palms ended when I did the removal in the Dean of Education's office at WIU in the '80s.



Holy k-wrap. It appears they may be something tree related (well palm related at least) that I know a little more than you do Bob. Yay for me! 

It is sad but true that fronds can kill you. Washingtonia fronds at least. This is me having some fun at my sisters place but simultaneously demonstrating what is the safest way to prune this palm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tI35IO9gvE (if you dont like George Thorogood don't watch. But then if you don't like George Thorogood you are probably dead at the wheel anyway!)

Back to the OP for just a moment. I notice there are a large number of positive replies to what was essentially a negative staement. I guess this means that a large number of arborists here, at least, believe they can adapt and profit despite the changing industry. Me too!


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## treevet (Feb 24, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Back to the OP for just a moment. I notice there are a large number of positive replies to what was essentially a negative staement. I guess this means that a large number of arborists here, at least, believe they can adapt and profit despite the changing industry. Me too!



Let's see if you feel the same way when your winter rolls around.


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## ForTheArborist (Mar 1, 2010)

treevet said:


> Isn't this job getting easier and safer? With the evolution of better and more job specific gear and equipment and the demand to always wear ppe and follow more exacting standards (ANSI)....
> 
> Is this job even dangerous anymore?
> 
> ...



Of course this is true. Anyone who can speak against this was doing this work before the advent of the internet era. 

There is one thing about this work though, heights. If it is the same for everyone when they take a saw up their first trees, a very small percentage of people are going to consider climbing trees for an occupation. 

I remember working in my first trees a few years ago and how paranoid my psych would get. I'd have to stop working and just relax up there from time to time because my mind could not stop with the vivid assumptions about dieing on the deck below and how that equals no next day. These things would be spurting through my mind, and my legs and arms would go limp as my blood became saturated with fear. I'd get so pissed off at this chit holding up my work that I go right back to it more mad about being #####fied up there than afraid of dieing. Basically getting pissed was how I made from being a newbie fearling climber to the calm and collect mentality I work with now. 

I don't think most people would go for all of that, so the numbers of climbers are always going to be low. With the population of the middle class and upper class always rising exponentially, the number of tree jobs will also continue to rise. The numbers of climbers will always be much sparser than the main population, but their going to rise with the population and wealth increases and with the new tech widely available. That's reality.


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