# Could a solo persons belt bleed-kit save lives?



## LeaLea910 (Feb 7, 2022)

Good Afternoon all from the UK,
I'm new here and wondered if I could ask for your valuable feedback please? I wondered if belt pouch emergency bleed-stopping kit which provided fast, effective emergency bleed stopping treatment for cuts and injuries (which could even be used heights) would be beneficial to the industry? Perhaps you already know of one? (Not just a first aid bag).
So a kit that provides fast treatment to a head or body wound that can instantly stem/stop the bleeding to buy more time for medical help to be sought?
Sorry it isn't the most uplifting and exciting of topics. Would just love to hear your thoughts, good and bad if you can spare a minute. Thank you in advance.


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## TheJollyLogger (Feb 7, 2022)

LeaLea910 said:


> Good Afternoon all from the UK,
> I'm new here and wondered if I could ask for your valuable feedback please? I wondered if belt pouch emergency bleed-stopping kit which provided fast, effective emergency bleed stopping treatment for cuts and injuries (which could even be used heights) would be beneficial to the industry? Perhaps you already know of one? (Not just a first aid bag).
> So a kit that provides fast treatment to a head or body wound that can instantly stem/stop the bleeding to buy more time for medical help to be sought?
> Sorry it isn't the most uplifting and exciting of topics. Would just love to hear your thoughts, good and bad if you can spare a minute. Thank you in advance.


Like Quik-Clot?


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## ken morgan (Feb 8, 2022)

maxi pads.. the original bleed stopper. and I am not being a **** with this (how ya like that?) its the truth on any large cut a maxi pad with pressure applied will cover damn near anything short of chopping your leg off. remember... R.I.C.E it (look it up on medical forums folks)


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## LeaLea910 (Feb 10, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Like Quik-Clot?


Thank you for your reply.
Yes, to include Quik-Clot. 
A multi use handy pouch/bag/box to be easily accessed incase of all bleed needs. Ie - A quick action compression seal. Although I'm thinking now after some other feedback. Are there circumstances where you might need this rapid kit whilst at height... OR would you almost certainly descend first no matter what? Sorry for the questions. 
Thank you again for your time.


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## LeaLea910 (Feb 10, 2022)

ken morgan said:


> maxi pads.. the original bleed stopper. and I am not being a **** with this (how ya like that?) its the truth on any large cut a maxi pad with pressure applied will cover damn near anything short of chopping your leg off. remember... R.I.C.E it (look it up on medical forums folks)


Hi Ken,
Thank you for your reply. I wonder how many people keep this in their kit though?
Can I ask, would you always go to a known method... Pad - tie and pressure should this be available more so than buying or wanting a purpose produced kit, which had everything you need to reduce bleed/stop bleeding inmost circumstances? 
I hope you don't mind me asking you, you are a better person than me to make this call. 
Thank you again for your time.


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## sand sock (Feb 10, 2022)

Look up chainsaw injuries primarily its left side of face and neck. That means quick klot gauze and compression and quick responce to e.r... 
Then you have left side leg injuries, which means a t.q. and quick responce to the e.r...

Ive got a bag, i bring out of the back seat. That stays on the truck bed, tail gate or hood, when doing certain jobs or around more people. When cutting. 

Check out stuck pig medical, he can take your unused Fsa\Hsa money. You may need to add quick klot gauze. Most dont need it. We do. But he carries the best t.q. on the market.

Extremities get a t.q. and torso joints, get packed and compression.


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## camel2019 (Mar 6, 2022)

Somewhere around here Is a small ankle kit that has a tourniquet,quick clot an Israeli bandage and a plastic valve for chest wounds(ie punctured lung) as well as a sealed pack of gloves(never touch other peoples red water).


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## ChillyB (Mar 7, 2022)

CAT5 tourniquet and an Israeli bandage are two items well worth having within reach. More comprehensive kit can be within a short walk (splint, ace bandage, lots of gauze, scissors, etc).

Find a combat medic for some good advice. I'm fortunate to have one as a friend and neighbor.


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## camel2019 (Mar 8, 2022)

ChillyB said:


> CAT5 tourniquet and an Israeli bandage are two items well worth having within reach. More comprehensive kit can be within a short walk (splint, ace bandage, lots of gauze, scissors, etc).
> 
> Find a combat medic for some good advice. I'm fortunate to have one as a friend and neighbor.


Also don’t cheap out on a tourniquet only buy name brand it’s the last thing you want to break when you absolutely need it.


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 8, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Also don’t cheap out on a tourniquet only buy name brand it’s the last thing you want to break when you absolutely need it.


I always carried loop runners, figured they would make a good tourniquet in a pinch, but more than that, whether climbing srt or ddrt, I always made sure my lifeline was routed directly to the ground before making a cut, rather than snaked through the canopy, and my setup always allowed me to unclip my lanyard and bomb down one handed. My thinking was if God forbid I was bleeding out those precious seconds were best spent getting down rather than try and tourniquet myself in the tree. Admittedly, I rarely had great confidence in my crew to do much to help me in the tree since I rarely had another trained climber on the job. I was always an advocate of having 2 climbers on-site for emergency situations, but in the real world small companies rarely do.


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## thenne1713 (Mar 8, 2022)

Pretty sure forest service fire jumpers use one, and origin of the tampon was WW-1 Trauma bandage, but found these, maybe worth looking at? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bleedout+bandage+emergency&ia=web


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 8, 2022)

Last year while firewooding, I kept a pouch with a CAT tourniquet, Israeli bandage, and Quick-Clot gauze on my chaps. Easy to cut yourself bad enough that the medical kit on the truck 100 yards away is too far.


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## camel2019 (Mar 9, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Last year while firewooding, I kept a pouch with a CAT tourniquet, Israeli bandage, and Quick-Clot gauze on my chaps. Easy to cut yourself bad enough that the medical kit on the truck 100 yards away is too far.


I kinda can’t help but laugh at most truck first aid kit the approved ones would be no help if anyone actually needed anything


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 9, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> I kinda can’t help but laugh at most truck first aid kit the approved ones would be no help if anyone actually needed anything


Agreed. Sever an artery, and bandaids and ibuprofen aren't going to help you much.


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 9, 2022)

In addition to tourniquets and quikclot make sure you carry smelling salts so you can bring your groundies back around, so they can stagger into the truck while you drive yourself to the hospital...


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## camel2019 (Mar 9, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Agreed. Sever an artery, and bandaids and ibuprofen aren't going to help you much.


Been there done that thank god it was in my own yard and I live a block away from a hospital I had the bleeding slowed before the ambulance arrived and then was asked if I could just walk to the hospital.


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## Bearcreek (Mar 9, 2022)

ken morgan said:


> maxi pads.. the original bleed stopper. and I am not being a **** with this (how ya like that?) its the truth on any large cut a maxi pad with pressure applied will cover damn near anything short of chopping your leg off. remember... R.I.C.E it (look it up on medical forums folks)


Yes, please do look it up. Maxi pads and tampons are designed to absorb blood, while doing absolutely nothing to stop it.


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## torch (Mar 9, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Agreed. Sever an artery, and bandaids and ibuprofen aren't going to help you much.


For a major arterial bleed, the only hope is a hemostatic dressing. EG: https://www.celoxmedical.com/cx-product/celox-gauze/

You literally stuff it in the hole. Pack it in as tight as possible. Hurts like hell. But stops the bleeding and keeps the patient alive. More effective and less long-term damage than a tourniquet.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 9, 2022)

Looks largely the same as the Quick-clot I carry.


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## Chiefhobbs (Mar 9, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Last year while firewooding, I kept a pouch with a CAT tourniquet, Israeli bandage, and Quick-Clot gauze on my chaps. Easy to cut yourself bad enough that the medical kit on the truck 100 yards away is too far.


That is a great idea. As an EMT, I think that would save your life.


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## TheJollyLogger (Mar 10, 2022)

Chiefhobbs said:


> That is a great idea. As an EMT, I think that would save your life.


As an EMT, in the event of a catastrophic injury, would you recommend a climber attempt to treat himself in the tree or use that energy to get to the ground asap? The way I had my climbing rig set up, I made sure I could release my lanyard and rappel down one handed, so probably talking 10 seconds low end, 30 seconds max to the ground.


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## camel2019 (Mar 10, 2022)

torch said:


> For a major arterial bleed, the only hope is a hemostatic dressing. EG: https://www.celoxmedical.com/cx-product/celox-gauze/
> 
> You literally stuff it in the hole. Pack it in as tight as possible. Hurts like hell. But stops the bleeding and keeps the patient alive. More effective and less long-term damage than a tourniquet.


Old school thought process people say tourniquets should only be on for 10min but we have come to find out they can be on much longer then that Without long term effect.


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## Chiefhobbs (Mar 10, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> As an EMT, in the event of a catastrophic injury, would you recommend a climber attempt to treat himself in the tree or use that energy to get to the ground asap? The way I had my climbing rig set up, I made sure I could release my lanyard and rappel down one handed, so probably talking 10 seconds low end, 30 seconds max to the ground.


I would think getting on the ground. One, so get get light headed and fall and two, you’ll do a better job of stopping blood loss and calming down. You still need to get 911 Responding asap.


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## torch (Mar 10, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Looks largely the same as the Quick-clot I carry.


Similar, two different active ingredients. Quikclot uses a clay that triggers clotting, Celox uses ground snail shells that form a gel that swells. Quikclot residue must eventually be flushed from the wound, Celox is absorbed by the body.

Studies suggest that Quikclot is more effective, provided that the instructions can be followed. Such as when applied by trained person(s) in a stable environment. Oddly, the inverse is true when instructions cannot be followed to the letter -- Celox has a higher success rate in less-than-optimal situations (eg: insufficient pressure, early movement). This might be the case when self-treating while hanging from a rope in a tree. 

Regardless, either product is far better than a wet t-shirt.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 10, 2022)

My main wood cutting buddy is allergic to iodine and likely to shellfish. That's why we specifically went with Quick-Clot.


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## Bearcreek (Mar 10, 2022)

torch said:


> Regardless, either product is far better than a wet t-shirt.


Or a maxi pad.


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## ken morgan (Mar 10, 2022)

Bearcreek said:


> Yes, please do look it up. Maxi pads and tampons are designed to absorb blood, while doing absolutely nothing to stop it.


oh look at the internet expert. stop the bleeding by any means. easiest most accessible item is a maxi pad, sold in every 7-11, family mart and every other convenience store. no they are not super clotters designed to clot up, but a maxi pad coupled with direct pressure will stop the bleeding. Vice reading about it, actually try it and then prove me wrong. experience speaks in this regards to your internet drivel.


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## Bearcreek (Mar 10, 2022)

ken morgan said:


> oh look at the internet expert. stop the bleeding by any means. easiest most accessible item is a maxi pad, sold in every 7-11, family mart and every other convenience store. no they are not super clotters designed to clot up, but a maxi pad coupled with direct pressure will stop the bleeding. Vice reading about it, actually try it and then prove me wrong. experience speaks in this regards to your internet drivel.


I'm not an expert. Never claimed to be. Which is why I've sought out and taken an extensive amount of training from and listened to the advice of people who are experts. If a maxi pad is literally the only thing you have, sure, use it. It's better than nothing at all. But it's ridiculous to intentionally put one in a trauma kit, when there are far batter options that are actually designed to stop bleeding, not just soak it up.


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## ken morgan (Mar 10, 2022)

Bearcreek said:


> I'm not an expert. Never claimed to be. Which is why I've sought out and taken an extensive amount of training from and listened to the advice of people who are experts. If a maxi pad is literally the only thing you have, sure, use it. It's better than nothing at all. But it's ridiculous to intentionally put one in a trauma kit, when there are far batter options that are actually designed to stop bleeding, not just soak it up.


the discussion had wandered back and forth over what was available and into what could be used in an expedient fashion. ambulance EMT/Wilderness first responder trained. all expired six years ago when I changed jobs.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 10, 2022)

Quikclot is expensive too, around $15 for one packet. I'm fortunate that I can have a packet of Quikclot, a CAT tourniquet(make sure you buy from North American Rescue, don't risk getting a fake), and an Israeli bandage on hand, and likely never use them. I know lots of guys where the $60 for that stuff and a pouch to keep it on your belt is out of reach, especially now with prices on everything skyrocketing. Better to have some maxi pads and a roll of duct tape than nothing. Puts you way ahead of any first aid kit you'll find at Walmart.


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## Bearcreek (Mar 10, 2022)

ken morgan said:


> the discussion had wandered back and forth over what was available and into what could be used in an expedient fashion. ambulance EMT/Wilderness first responder trained. all expired six years ago when I changed jobs.


Maybe I misunderstood your post. I got the impression you were recommending carrying maxi pads in a trauma kit.


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 10, 2022)

A number of years ago at a Campus with many established and new hardwood trees I was cutting dead trees for my own profit. A staff member of the facility asked if I could meet him on a particular morning to guide him in some tree removal work. So at about 8:30 AM I drive to the determined spot and not see any one but could hear a chain saw idling. After a few minutes search discover the climber in a tree about 40 feet up hanging upside down with the saw running still attached to his belt. I quickly strapped on my spurs and made my way up to him. I unbuckled the saw turned him right side up and lowered him down to the ground then notified paramedics. My guess was that after discovering him in the precarious situation it took me ten minutes to get to him Apparently a limb he was cutting spun around and hit him in the head rendering him unconscious. Am pretty sure him being left that way for much longer would have ended his life. It appears that a climber injured severely in a tree with out a competent grounds person to give him aid the climber has few options. I have seen various Velcro type straps that could be a life saver. Some times just good duct tape but how much equipment would a climber on a routine day carry with him. Including myself many will say this is only going to take a half an hour be done soon. Thanks


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## Urban_Arbors (Mar 10, 2022)

To the OP's question yes, I believe such a kit carried on you could save a life. As other's have stated earlier such kits 100 yds away in a truck or inaccessibly packed away won't do you much good when a bleed is severe enough that seconds matter. One thing that hasn't been covered in this thread yet is I suggest you can stop by any local firehouse and talk with any paramedic on shift. Bring the crew some cigars and pick their brain about it. They'll be happy to help cover the topic


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 10, 2022)

Some of the paramedics and SAR people will give an "unofficial" class on emergency trauma response, too.


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## chipper1 (Mar 10, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> As an EMT, in the event of a catastrophic injury, would you recommend a climber attempt to treat himself in the tree or use that energy to get to the ground asap? The way I had my climbing rig set up, I made sure I could release my lanyard and rappel down one handed, so probably talking 10 seconds low end, 30 seconds max to the ground.


Get out of the tree.
When minutes matter, someone to do an aerial rescue is many times hrs away.
How long would it take an experienced climber to reach you, even using your rope and if he was geared up and ready to climb vs you getting to the ground. Last thing I'd want is to be climbing your line with blood dripping down on me the whole time.
If you can get to the ground, do it.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 10, 2022)

Zero experience here, last time I climbed a tree was probably 8 years old, but get on the ground would be my response too.

Even the most imbecile groundie can put pressure on the leaky bit and call 911....... once you're on the ground.

On the flip side, even the best trained groundie, a fellow climber who happens to be on the ground that day, will take a lot longer to get to you.

I'd get on the ground.


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## CTH-SXL (Mar 10, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> My main wood cutting buddy is allergic to iodine and likely to shellfish. That's why we specifically went with Quick-Clot.


This is a screen shot from the Celox web site . Celox appears to be a better choice over Quick-Clot .


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 10, 2022)

CTH-SXL said:


> This is a screen shot from the Celox web site . Celox appears to be a better choice over Quick-Clot .


Yup, sounds like when it's time to rotate out the QuikClot, Celox will be the replacement. Thanks for finding that, good to know.


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## Philbert (Mar 10, 2022)

Statistically, more people will be killed by the tree (or falling from it) that by a chainsaw cut, so first aid / trauma considerations should go beyond bleeding. That said, a saw (axe, etc.) can create a fatal cut.

One of the groups that I have volunteered with requires each Sawyer to carry a 'Blood Stop Kit’ in a belt pouch. They include:
- a tourniquet;
- compression ('Israeli') bandage;
- EMT shears (to remove clothing);
- gauze pads;
- roll gauze;
- first aid / medical tape;
- elastic ('ACE') bandage (to hold things in place);
- mylar ('space') blanket for shock;
- nitrile gloves. 







Choose components that you are comfortable using, and understand how to use what you have - not the time to be reading small letter instructions. I suggest keeping bandaids, and other minor, but necessary first aid stuff in a separate kit, so that this is clearly for emergency use.

If you get the opportunity, attend a 'STOP THE BLEED' class, which goes beyond typical Red Cross type first aid training, or a 'wilderness first aid' class, which assumes that you are a long way away from 911 type help.
www.stopthebleed.org

Philbert


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## Cricket (Mar 11, 2022)

torch said:


> For a major arterial bleed, the only hope is a hemostatic dressing. EG: https://www.celoxmedical.com/cx-product/celox-gauze/
> 
> You literally stuff it in the hole. Pack it in as tight as possible. Hurts like hell. But stops the bleeding and keeps the patient alive. More effective and less long-term damage than a tourniquet.


I used to work packaging Gelfoam for UpJohn/Pfixer - and my ex once had his life saved by the stuff - I was fairly impressed.


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## Bango Skank (Mar 12, 2022)

__





Borden Institute


U.S. Army Medical Center of Excellence, JBSA Ft. Sam Houston, Texas




medcoe.army.mil





From the menu there, you can select “ textbooks of military medicine “ and there’s tons of heavy reading. Fascinating stuff. Constantly changing and evolving. As far as I know the old ABCs are still legit, and pressure will stop a lot of bleeding, it’s just a matter of how much pressure and how it’s applied.

A word on Quik Clot, I think the formula been changed since my days, and there’s much better and safer products now than what the military gave out in the mid 2000s. We used to get this granular stuff, looked like sand. Pour it right on the wound and use some pressure to press it in place. This stuff got hot, like caused burns and a little necrosis. Some jarhead came in my hospital because he thought it’d be funny to put it on a little shaving cut on his neck. He was hurtin for certain and he’s probably still a little discolored there. Never saw anyone get it in their eyes and for that, I’m grateful, but we were told to mind the wind direction when opening and using it. Hopefully nobody has that old stuff anymore. There’s still granular stuff, but it’s not all the same. I think the gauze impregnated with the stuff sounds ideal for what we might expect from a chainsaw injury and lacerations.

CAT tourniquets are very cool. They should be clean, but don’t need to be sterile, so open it up and practice applying it a little. You should be able to put it on any of your limbs with either one of your hands. Practice with your non-dominant hand. I generally work in cities and the suburbs, so if I’m putting a tourniquet on myself, my next stop is the emergency room and I’ll let a doctor decide when to take it off. Some of y’all might be hours away from some emergency medical folks, so use your best judgment. The line between “ bleeding controlled “ and “ limb death” might be a bit broader than we once thought, but one should probably get a professional to clean and close the wound anyways.

If you cut your head, don’t put a tourniquet on your neck 

Y’all stay safe.


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

sand sock said:


> Look up chainsaw injuries primarily its left side of face and neck. That means quick klot gauze and compression and quick responce to e.r...
> Then you have left side leg injuries, which means a t.q. and quick responce to the e.r...
> 
> Ive got a bag, i bring out of the back seat. That stays on the truck bed, tail gate or hood, when doing certain jobs or around more people. When cutting.
> ...


Thank you so much for this detailed reply. I do appreciate you time. I'm sorry it took me so long to reply back, I genuinely wasn't notified of the responses. I'll check myself more regularly now. 

I have had a look at Stuck Pig Medical, thank you for sharing these with me. Why do you say its the best TQ on the market? Because it is presented as so or do you have experience with it? (Sorry if you have and that is too much to ask.)

I completely understand why you would have a kit nearby, on the truck etc. I guess I'm trying to understand how much precaution people might take when up in a tree for example. Are you that concerned that you take some form of aide with you just incase or is it just a 'nice to have' ... 

Thank you again! Safe climbing!


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Somewhere around here Is a small ankle kit that has a tourniquet,quick clot an Israeli bandage and a plastic valve for chest wounds(ie punctured lung) as well as a sealed pack of gloves(never touch other peoples red water).


Hi Camel2019,
Please accept my apologies for the delayed reply. I wasn't notified on responses so from now on I will check in myself. sorry. 
I'll have a quick look for this ankle kit now. Nice idea, I would think this would be a decent/handy kit to have strapped on wouldn't it? 
Note * Just had a look and can't find it. I'll keep looking. 

Thank you again for your feedback.


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## sand sock (Mar 17, 2022)

we tree killers are usually more heavily muscled. yes i have a elastic rat TQ, becasue that is what i have when i was assembling it. back then teh consenus was nt out yet. it is still great for women/children and dogs. the medics coming back from afghanastan , have first hand experience with what works and what doesnt for tramatic injuries and what is self intuitive. most guys like the cat TQ . you have probably girthy thighs. how hard can you pull a elastic cord and stop blood flow and not break?


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

ChillyB said:


> CAT5 tourniquet and an Israeli bandage are two items well worth having within reach. More comprehensive kit can be within a short walk (splint, ace bandage, lots of gauze, scissors, etc).
> 
> Find a combat medic for some good advice. I'm fortunate to have one as a friend and neighbor.


Thank you so much at ChillyB, 
Apologies for the delayed reply. As above, I wasn't notified and didn't check in enough. My bad, sorry. 
Definitely a good friend and neighbour to have. We all need one of those! 
From my impression on people's thoughts including yours, whatever you do up a tree, needs to take less than a minute and then you're getting yourself out of there and to more substantial help! Most certainly want to/need to descend the tree at the earliest opportunity? 
What comes first do you think? Descent, or bandage or perhaps it will just depend on the injury! 
I hope you have never had to experience the need to decide! 

Many Thanks for your time again, much, much appreciated.


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## camel2019 (Mar 17, 2022)

LeaLea910 said:


> Hi Camel2019,
> Please accept my apologies for the delayed reply. I wasn't notified on responses so from now on I will check in myself. sorry.
> I'll have a quick look for this ankle kit now. Nice idea, I would think this would be a decent/handy kit to have strapped on wouldn't it?
> Note * Just had a look and can't find it. I'll keep looking.
> ...


I forget what company sells them but their up here in canada google ankle trauma kit


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I always carried loop runners, figured they would make a good tourniquet in a pinch, but more than that, whether climbing srt or ddrt, I always made sure my lifeline was routed directly to the ground before making a cut, rather than snaked through the canopy, and my setup always allowed me to unclip my lanyard and bomb down one handed. My thinking was if God forbid I was bleeding out those precious seconds were best spent getting down rather than try and tourniquet myself in the tree. Admittedly, I rarely had great confidence in my crew to do much to help me in the tree since I rarely had another trained climber on the job. I was always an advocate of having 2 climbers on-site for emergency situations, but in the real world small companies rarely do.


This answers my question above! Thank you. The priority for most would to be get on down! 
Thank you for sharing this.


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> ankle trauma kit


Strangely, when I put Canada first, loads came up! Thank you!


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> Pretty sure forest service fire jumpers use one, and origin of the tampon was WW-1 Trauma bandage, but found these, maybe worth looking at? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bleedout+bandage+emergency&ia=web


Thank you Thenne1713 - This is helpful too. In this world, we develop some things that don't need developing just to keep ourselves busy.  Did not know that was the origin... haha, you learn something new every day!
Thank you for your time.


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> on my chaps.


Thank you so much for your reply. It's really good to learn what precautions people are taking and how concerned people are about having nearby aide should it be needed! (Hopefully not!) - I have to admit, I did have to Google what 'Chaps' are. (Confession!) ...


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> I kinda can’t help but laugh at most truck first aid kit the approved ones would be no help if anyone actually needed anything


Is this because not many truck kits contain much more than a few bandages, some plasters, scissors and a triangle bandage still? At least you'd have a first aid blanket?  Or, are your certified kits better than ours?


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> In addition to tourniquets and quikclot make sure you carry smelling salts so you can bring your groundies back around, so they can stagger into the truck while you drive yourself to the hospital...


This made me smile! Sounds like a typical first aid scenario. I remember my mum being whisked off when I was 4 years old and having my face stitched up after a fall, she fell to the floor and had her own medical room whilst I got stitched up solo... Thanks mum!


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

torch said:


> For a major arterial bleed, the only hope is a hemostatic dressing. EG: https://www.celoxmedical.com/cx-product/celox-gauze/
> 
> You literally stuff it in the hole. Pack it in as tight as possible. Hurts like hell. But stops the bleeding and keeps the patient alive. More effective and less long-term damage than a tourniquet.


Interesting, thank you! A single piece life saving aide do you think? Sounds painful just reading it though.  
Do you think people would worry about the long term damage of a tourniquet in these situations? Genuine question? 

Thanks torch for your time in replying.


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

Bango Skank said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great and detailed reply, thank you Bango Skank! 
I don't know what anyone would have done without your sound head wound tip there! 
Interesting read and thank you for your service too! 
I don't think we can carry Morphine in a kit either, which is a shame! More people might have one if they did! (Kidding!)
Like the idea of practicing the application of a tourniquet on yourself, I'm presuming you would if you were more at risk of needing it. I am fire service not medical and when we brought them in, we practiced on 'Annie', health and safety wouldn't allow for us to experience it 'for real' ... of course we did but not applying them to ourselves! I guess you become so complacent in having someone or somewhere nearby to help! 

Thanks again! Have a good day!


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> A number of years ago at a Campus with many established and new hardwood trees I was cutting dead trees for my own profit. A staff member of the facility asked if I could meet him on a particular morning to guide him in some tree removal work. So at about 8:30 AM I drive to the determined spot and not see any one but could hear a chain saw idling. After a few minutes search discover the climber in a tree about 40 feet up hanging upside down with the saw running still attached to his belt. I quickly strapped on my spurs and made my way up to him. I unbuckled the saw turned him right side up and lowered him down to the ground then notified paramedics. My guess was that after discovering him in the precarious situation it took me ten minutes to get to him Apparently a limb he was cutting spun around and hit him in the head rendering him unconscious. Am pretty sure him being left that way for much longer would have ended his life. It appears that a climber injured severely in a tree with out a competent grounds person to give him aid the climber has few options. I have seen various Velcro type straps that could be a life saver. Some times just good duct tape but how much equipment would a climber on a routine day carry with him. Including myself many will say this is only going to take a half an hour be done soon. Thanks


Thank you for sharing this, I hope the guy was okay in the end, thanks to you it seems! 
This highlights the lone working need, although ideally, you'd have a grounds team or at least a partner ... but this is not always the case. 
This guy was knocked out so there isn't a great deal he could have done to help himself, except now, never work alone again. Seems he had a lucky escape too with no further injuries from the chain saw etc! 
Duct tape - so many uses, everyone should carry a roll! 

Thank you for your time in replying! Really appreciate it!


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

Urban_Arbors said:


> To the OP's question yes, I believe such a kit carried on you could save a life. As other's have stated earlier such kits 100 yds away in a truck or inaccessibly packed away won't do you much good when a bleed is severe enough that seconds matter. One thing that hasn't been covered in this thread yet is I suggest you can stop by any local firehouse and talk with any paramedic on shift. Bring the crew some cigars and pick their brain about it. They'll be happy to help cover the topic


Haha thank you! As a 10yr firefighter myself, this resonated. We were less fussy, a packed of biscuits were suffice!  
However, we are only immediate first aid training and rarely came across incidents like this! I went to a 85 year old with a hedge trimmer through her hand and I was more inspired by her determination and ability to laugh at the blades embedded in to her hand just because she was pleased to be surrounded by men in uniform. haha....  

However, you are right, I might see if I can look in to picking the brains or an USAR professional somewhere!

Thank you for your time in replying.


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## LeaLea910 (Mar 17, 2022)

Philbert said:


> Statistically, more people will be killed by the tree (or falling from it) that by a chainsaw cut, so first aid / trauma considerations should go beyond bleeding. That said, a saw (axe, etc.) can create a fatal cut.
> 
> One of the groups that I have volunteered with requires each Sawyer to carry a 'Blood Stop Kit’ in a belt pouch. They include:
> - a tourniquet;
> ...


Philbert, thank you so much for taking the time to reply and to provide some much helpful info. Your time is much appreciate. 
Stopthebleed.org are fab and in some ways, have inspired this conversation! Definitely worth a look in to.
Two separate kits, this sounds like a general thought here too. Let's be honest, if you need a plaster, you'll 'man up' until you're down... if you need to access first aid up in a tree, it's probably a little more severe and urgent! 
BUT, I have also summed up - the priority is to get on down the tree first, so having a kit on you and not in your truck, is probably going to be used still, whilst on the ground... 
Still so much to think about. 
Hope you have a great day!


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 17, 2022)

LeaLea910 said:


> Interesting, thank you! A single piece life saving aide do you think? Sounds painful just reading it though.
> Do you think people would worry about the long term damage of a tourniquet in these situations? Genuine question?
> 
> Thanks torch for your time in replying.


This requires proper triage and training. For there to be long term damage, a person has to survive the initial traumatic injury.


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## camel2019 (Mar 17, 2022)

LeaLea910 said:


> Is this because not many truck kits contain much more than a few bandages, some plasters, scissors and a triangle bandage still? At least you'd have a first aid blanket?  Or, are your certified kits better than ours?


Nooe ontario approved kits would be good enough for minor cuts and scrapes nothing that will save anyone if needed.


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## camel2019 (Mar 17, 2022)

LeaLea910 said:


> Interesting, thank you! A single piece life saving aide do you think? Sounds painful just reading it though.
> Do you think people would worry about the long term damage of a tourniquet in these situations? Genuine question?
> 
> Thanks torch for your time in replying.


I wouldent limb or life what one would you choose.


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## mountainguyed67 (Mar 17, 2022)

I have some of these in my first aid kit, the tails are long to tie around the body. One was used on one of my trips, the ER doctor was impressed.


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## isaaccarlson (Mar 19, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> As an EMT, in the event of a catastrophic injury, would you recommend a climber attempt to treat himself in the tree or use that energy to get to the ground asap? The way I had my climbing rig set up, I made sure I could release my lanyard and rappel down one handed, so probably talking 10 seconds low end, 30 seconds max to the ground.


It depends on the wound. Sometimes you have seconds to slow/stop the bleeding. A neck wound can render you unconscious in seconds, so if it takes you 10 seconds to get down, it's already too late. A large artery can dump blood incredibly fast, reducing blood pressure to the point where you are disoriented or pass out. Think of how quickly a deer dies when hit with an arrow. Most of my deer are on the ground and dead in 3-4 seconds. Granted those are chest wounds, but the blood loss is still massive.

If you are in a tree and sever an artery, you need to make a very fast assessment of what is damaged and either stop the bleeding right then and there and get down asap, or just get down and deal with it on the ground. Your crew needs to have a very good understanding of stopping bleeding and treating shock, not a basic understanding or a one time video, but a real world "i actually know what i am doing" kind of knowledge. It saves lives. Make sure everyone knows where a hospital is and the quickest route. It is much faster to transport yourself or your buddy to the hospital than to wait for an ambulance.

I have driven myself in for treatment before, and it was not fun with a dislocated neck and shoulder. A worker dropped a large branch on me, breaking my hardhat. (I was given the all-clear to walk under the tree and he dropped the branch) The guys said "shake it off, it's ok", but I was not ok. I knew my neck was hurt and my right arm was out of place. They wanted me to call the boss, but I needed to get help and nobody would drive me, so I took the truck and drove myself to see my cousin, who had a clinic just a few blocks away. Getting immediate attention prevented more long term damage. He knew something was not right and asked what happened. I told him part of a tree fell on me, hitting my head and right shoulder. He checked me out right away and had everything back in place in a few minutes, before the swelling started.

What drove me nuts was the denial of the crew and the boss being upset with me for leaving the jobsite for immediate treatment. I quit working for him after that. He was too worried about money, speed, and public image. It was a very dangerous place to work with that attitude.

Working fast is not safe, no job is worth your life, and you can't always depend on others to take care of you. Make sure you know what you need to and be as safe as you can.


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## TimberMcPherson (Mar 22, 2022)

I carry a celox pad in my helmet, I can pull it free and open it one handed in seconds.

Less useful is the 2g pouch of quickclot in my wallet, but its always on me


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## TheLazyBFarm (Mar 24, 2022)

Philbert said:


> Statistically, more people will be killed by the tree (or falling from it) that by a chainsaw cut, so first aid / trauma considerations should go beyond bleeding. That said, a saw (axe, etc.) can create a fatal cut.
> 
> One of the groups that I have volunteered with requires each Sawyer to carry a 'Blood Stop Kit’ in a belt pouch. They include:
> - a tourniquet;
> ...


I'm registered for a STB class April 9. Good to hear it's GTG.

Where did you get the above kit?

Thanks,


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## Philbert (Mar 24, 2022)

TheLazyBFarm said:


> Where did you get the above kit?


Pieced mine together from stuff on Amazon, or at Walgreens. There are some commercially available ( sorry, don’t have any links) but then you get what you get, not what you want.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Mar 24, 2022)

Similar thread:






What do you keep in your first aid kit?


Hey guys. I'm guessing this has been posted here before, but I can't seem to find anything. I've been cutting for quite awhile, but not professionally by any means. Fortunately, I've been lucky and have been relatively accident free. But as I get older, I become more aware of how likely...




www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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