# HOW do they make any $$$



## murphy4trees (Apr 14, 2009)

It was a wet day here, not pouring, but rained all night, and on and off all day, from drizzle to light rain, so I ran errands. Left my neighborhood at around 9:15... by that time this kinda new name in the tree biz around here had a crane and a bucket truck set up in a neighbor's front yard, next to a pretty big silver maple, (maybe 44-48" DBH... Thing was not that tall though) plywood everywhere and cribbing set up for the crane... So I figure they are all set up and the tree will be down by the time I get back for a 10:30 appointment at my house. Now they have a chip truck and chipper in the street, skid steer with grapple bucket, large 16'+ bed dump truck to haul the wood, and the crane and bucket truck, and 7 men on the job. 

So I roll the window down and jokingly yell out, "what are you fooling around with all that equipment and plywood for: just notch it and drop her across the street".. At least one groundie laughed... I was in a hurry for my appointment so I didn't look up on my way back at 10:40. But when I left again at 2:30 pm, they had only taken out 2 of the four main leads out and none of the really big wood. Then at 4:35 pm, I drive by again and see they are working on the butt log, taking it in two cuts, with one man on the saw, cutting through 4' wood at about 6' high, and then come home again at 7:30 and they have the big wood in the back of the crane and are jockying plywood to get the crane out of the yard. I stopped and talked to one of the groundies at 4:45, who told me they had 7 men on the job. 

Now if it was me, I'd have taken off a few side limbs, and dropped that thing across the street after pulling the neighbor's mailbox. Tree would have been on the ground by 9-9:30 AM.. and chipped up by 11 am or 12 noon, depending on how many loads of chips it was. And the log loader would have picked all that wood up for $300 in about 30 minutes. The tree would have been fine, no wires, and fairly wide LZ in the front yard and street. It would have been an early day.

And even if it had to be climbed and roped, Big John or Pat would have had that entire tree roped down, including the wood,and ready to drop the stick before noon. Tree would have been ready for the log loader no later than 1-2 pm, with 1 climber and 3 ground men and the 1590 chipper with winch. 

Now maybe the wet weather slowed them down a bit... But how can you make payments on all that equipment, pay 7 men a 12 hour day, haul and dump all the wood and chips, and still make any money on what was probably a $2500 tree? There are hungry lowballers around here that might have done a tree like that for $1800-2000. Makes me wonder if these kind of companies aren't washing drug money through a tree business. That is not a joke, I really wonder that!. 

I might be able to get a picture of the stump later this week.


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

Like you said, 7 men to 7:30 at night and tons of equip, how do they make a living?

On the other hand, one can, and I have, made a decent living doing millions of jobs like that with only 2 men and a lot of equipment in one less than 8 hour day including disposing of the refuse. No mistakes, everything ready from the start and a rehearsed flawless choreography and highly skilled participants. 

One is drudgery, the other is fun and exciting and profitable.

They are still gonna always be out there, just with different faces.


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## tree md (Apr 14, 2009)

Murph, he's obviously a newb with the crane and probably scared to death that he is going to tear something up. He is probably doing the job just to cover his labor and make a payment on the crane. All good for you, if he is working like that he is going to eat that crane in this economic environment.


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## John464 (Apr 14, 2009)

well could of been a new crane or op. it takes a little while to get familiar with the boom functions. it also could of been a new guy in the tree. again takes time to get fast with making crane cuts as well. real scary at first actually. when both are experienced it can make a job go real fast. just because they have the equipment doesnt make them efficient. the combo of experience and the right equipment is the combo you strive for.

as for making money with fancy equipment. i just got done with my accountant and she is telling me I have expensed all my writeoffs for 09' and I have well over a million tied up in equipment. sometimes you buy because cause it saves you come april 15th. Didn't you just get done writing a post of how you were always the cheapest guy around on a bid? Just think of you were the highest guy around and hustled just as hard? You'd have the fancy equipment too.

as for dropping a tree across the street or on a lawn, especially taking up the the neighbors mailbox. if I can sell a job for for zero lawn impact and get another grand or more for it I will bring in the crane. How do you know what they got for the job? It was raining, taking it slow in the rain is a good thing. If they made $3k today they are ahead. I sent everyone home this am because it was too wet. Looks like tomorrow will be the same way.


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## John464 (Apr 14, 2009)

By chance this wasn't Rick's Tree Service from the philly area was it? I know they are selling their crane to get another. Could it be their current crane not functioning properly or the new one learning it?


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## murphy4trees (Apr 14, 2009)

*Not me.. I AM usuallly the highest*

Even though I run a fairly low overhead operation, I like to bid high..
I just bid a $1,450 job that the homeowner told me he had a price of 700 on.. He wasn't lying either. That was a notch and drop willow in the backyard, but pretty big wood, maybe 30-34". 

I just charged $795 to prune a storm damaged pine tree, near some primaries. A lot of downed debris and a good 250' to the driveway. Climber was done pruning every single branch tip left on that tree in under two hours. NO POLE SAW EITHER!!!

Then I just bid 1,795 on a backyard sycamore. Tall but not that big in the wood. Lady told me she had one price of 1,800 and three other prices between 975-1,000... I'll lower my prices to match competitive bids in most cases, but just walked away from both those jobs... I told her $1,800 was what the tree was really worth (pre-recession) and the three prices she got were all from guys that were desperate for work. I also suggested she keep the tree and told her that even though it had a lean, it was a solid tree, no way was it going down any time soon.

I often get customers telling me I AM the highest. And that leaves me an opening to tell them why my work is superior and ask how much the other bids were for. The I'll make the call about wether I want to reduce the bid to make it a little more comfortable for them.


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## John464 (Apr 14, 2009)

This is what I was commenting on. If you werent the lowballer back then....



murphy4trees said:


> I used to use my own strength and hard work to power through jobs while charging next to nothing for the work... Worked so hard with so little to show for it... Working with old beat up trucks and chippers. There were other local companies that would just walk away from estimates without even giving a price if they found out I was bidding on it too.
> 
> THAT SUCKED!!!
> 
> After i got Lyme in 98, I just couldn't work that hard anymore.. so I raised my prices, did more advertising and it all went so much better. Now I run a 14' chip truck with a 2007 Brush bandit 1590 (with winch) and a 2003 Rayco super RG 50 grinder... bought an 97 GMC altec LR IV, last Feb as well... At only 55' it doesn;t get out that much though.. All is paid for...


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

John464 said:


> I sent everyone home this am because it was too wet. Looks like tomorrow will be the same way.



I used to be based in NJ and have fam in NJ. You usually get the weather we get the next day. It was supposed to rain here all day. Turned out to be just a sprinkle in the am.

Equipment is everything but like said, you have to build up to using it.

You get the pick up, add a chipper, add a dump, add a picker, get a bigger truck and chipper, add a used truck crane, need a wood truck, mini skids, dump trailers, stumpers, buy it all. If you can make good purchases you are not in the rat race anymore. And with time comes you become the old sage (in their minds) for just surviving it all. You accumulate clients the low ballers can't touch.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 14, 2009)

What economic environment? This economy is not in as bad of shape as everyone says it is. So a few auto workers ( I used to be one) lose their jobs and real estate goes down, a few other companies who were operating on borrowed money go down and all of a sudden the economy is gonna colapse. Nonesense!


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> What economic environment? This economy is not in as bad of shape as everyone says it is. So a few auto workers ( I used to be one) lose their jobs and real estate goes down, a few other companies who were operating on borrowed money go down and all of a sudden the economy is gonna colapse. Nonesense!



I just don't see it either. If I had to feed 5 crews I might.


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## tree md (Apr 14, 2009)

Man, I have got to say that I am so thankful that I didn't get neck deep in debt with equipment last year. I was making upwards of 20K a week this time last year. Granted I was contracting out a lot of work and was not taking in nearly that amount but on paper it looked real good. Sunrise or whoever out of California offered me $150K to purchase a crane (all I had to do was sign away my first born child). I am no rookie and have seen the good times and the bad. I knew that after the boom always comes the bust. I declined the loan. I bought equipment (dump and chipper) but I paid cash and lived within my means. I'd hate to be owing that money right now like I see so many others who thought the good times would last for ever did. I am now a little bigger than I was, in the clear, debt free and they are having to work their asses off for chump change to pay off their debts for heavy equipment. 

Funny thing happened to me today. I had one guy call me on a tree that I already bid, that has to be taken down with a crane, call a second time. He forgot that he already called me a month ago and got a price from me. I told him that I already priced his tree and asked him if he was ready to move forward. He fumbled and said he would get back to me. That tells me he has exhausted all of his options and is now becoming redundant in his quest for a better price. I bid another large removal (no crane) for a church a couple of months back. I went by there last Friday and saw that the tree is still standing. That tells me that my prices are competitive but not a lot of people are ready to turn loose of that kind of money right now. I'd hate to be having to pay for a piece of equipment like that that I am not working "efficiently" everyday right now in this environment.


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

tree md said:


> Man, I have got to say that I am so thankful that I didn't get neck deep in debt with equipment last year. I was making upwards of 20K a week this time last year. Granted I contracting out a lot of work and was not taking in nearly that amount but on paper it looked real good. Sunrise or whoever out of California offered me $150K to purchase a crane (all I had to do was sign away my first born child). I am no rookie and have seen the good times and the bad. I knew that after the boom always comes the bust. I declined the loan. I bought equipment (dump and chipper) but I paid cash and lived within my means. I'd hate to be owing that money right now like I see so many others who thought the good times would last for ever did. I am now a little bigger than I was, in the clear, debt free and they are having to work their asses off for chump change to pay of their debts for heavy equipment.
> 
> Funny thing happened to me today. I had one guy call me on a tree that I already bid that has to be taken down with a crane call a second time. He forgot that he already called me a month ago and got a price from me. I told him that I already priced his tree and asked him if he was ready to kove forward. He fumbled and said he would get back to me. That tells me he kas exhausted all of his options and is now becoming redundant in his quest for a better price. I bid another large removal (no crane) for a church a couple of months back. I went by their last Friday and saw that the tree is still standing. That tells me that my prices are competitive but not a lot of people are ready to turn loose of that kind of money right now. I'd hate to be having to pay for a piece of equipment like that that I am not working "efficiently" everyday right now in this environment.



I agree with that, but you can find a decent 14 ton 70 footer for 25 to 30k and sub out the bigger stuff. Lots can be done with that little unit. We were pulling trees out of houses in the hurricane. You couldn't find a sub crane to save your life. It gives you a HUGE edge.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 14, 2009)

tree md said:


> Man, I have got to say that I am so thankful that I didn't get neck deep in debt with equipment last year. I was making upwards of 20K a week this time last year. Granted I contracting out a lot of work and was not taking in nearly that amount but on paper it looked real good. Sunrise or whoever out of California offered me $150K to purchase a crane (all I had to do was sign away my first born child). I am no rookie and have seen the good times and the bad. I knew that after the boom always comes the bust. I declined the loan. I bought equipment (dump and chipper) but I paid cash and lived within my means. I'd hate to be owing that money right now like I see so many others who thought the good times would last for ever did. I am now a little bigger than I was, in the clear, debt free and they are having to work their asses off for chump change to pay of their debts for heavy equipment.
> 
> Funny thing happened to me today. I had one guy call me on a tree that I already bid that has to be taken down with a crane call a second time. He forgot that he already called me a month ago and got a price from me. I told him that I already priced his tree and asked him if he was ready to kove forward. He fumbled and said he would get back to me. That tells me he kas exhausted all of his options and is now becoming redundant in his quest for a better price. I bid another large removal (no crane) for a church a couple of months back. I went by their last Friday and saw that the tree is still standing. That tells me that my prices are competitive but not a lot of people are ready to turn loose of that kind of money right now. I'd hate to be having to pay for a piece of equipment like that that I am not working "efficiently" everyday right now in this environment.



It feels good to not have to make payments on equipment. I thought about getting a bucket truck but i figure i can wait til i got the cash. I hate the pressure to owe $. After all "The borrower is servant to the lender".


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## clearance (Apr 14, 2009)

Could it have been Nosack, with the name painted over, perhaps?


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## Tree Pig (Apr 14, 2009)

How about this for a possibility, the owner was nowhere to be found and they work hourly, so they were milking an easy job for a days pay?


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

clearance said:


> Could it have been Nosack, with the name painted over, perhaps?



Got the new Arb News today (ISA). And the boys brought No sack in front of the desk and put a ruler over his knuckles and now he is a reformed goody goody. Go figger.


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## tree md (Apr 14, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> How about this for a possibility, the owner was nowhere to be found and they work hourly, so they were milking an easy job for a days pay?



Any owner who is fool enough to be doing that right now is not long for this world and I would wonder how he ever got in his position to begin with.

Maybe I am the odd ball here but things are definitely not as good as they used to be right now in my area. Any owner that doesn't watch his P's & Q's will loose his ass in the best of times, let alone a bare market where most people are not paying for services that are not absolutely necessary right now or are filthy rich and not concerned about the 1/3 market loss that most have experienced at best.

I feel pretty fortunate. I will turn a good profit this month (if everything that I have booked comes in). Not the money that I made last year but enough for me to survive and even buy more equipment. Life is still good for now.


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## prentice110 (Apr 14, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> Now if it was me, I'd have taken off a few side limbs, and dropped that thing across the street after pulling the neighbor's mailbox.
> 
> Makes me wonder if these kind of companies aren't washing drug money through a tree business. That is not a joke, I really wonder that!.



There are a couple of companies like that by me. One of which knows his stuff. Hes an old school mexican fellow who charges a lot more than most, has more than enough nicer equipment, yet only works 2 or 3 days a week. Ive been told by more than 1 of his ex employees that hes slingin high volume on the side. The other company is a recent start up that came out of the lawn maintenece industry and decided he was sick of driving to 30 houses a day, thought tree guys probably only go to 2-3, and presto changeo, poof! im a tree guy. This guy spends more time washing and waxing his trucks than he does working. and hes always buying brand new stuff. Hes got one of those International CXT's, a crane and just got a brand new bucket. He doesnt even know how to climb. Turns out daddy's rich as hell and signs the note on anything the douche wants. Some guys got all the luck!


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> There are a couple of companies like that by me. One of which knows his stuff. Hes an old school mexican fellow who charges a lot more than most, has more than enough nicer equipment, yet only works 2 or 3 days a week. Ive been told by more than 1 of his ex employees that hes slingin high volume on the side. The other company is a recent start up that came out of the lawn maintenece industry and decided he was sick of driving to 30 houses a day, thought tree guys probably only go to 2-3, and presto changeo, poof! im a tree guy. This guy spends more time washing and waxing his trucks than he does working. and hes always buying brand new stuff. Hes got one of those International CXT's, a crane and just got a brand new bucket. He doesnt even know how to climb. Turns out daddy's rich as hell and signs the note on anything the douche wants. Some guys got all the luck!



what do you mean by "slingin high volume on the side" prentice? Side work on his own company?

Daddy's rich kid will never last. Seen it many times.


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## prentice110 (Apr 14, 2009)

treevet said:


> what do you mean by "slingin high volume on the side" prentice? Side work on his own company?
> 
> Daddy's rich kid will never last. Seen it many times.



slingin soda pop. coca cola. white girl. moving weight. kilos


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

selling cocaine.....got it, we can say that on here. (I'm old and outa touch).


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## Hddnis (Apr 14, 2009)

Tree work is a front for organized crime to move money sometimes. Hard to tell if a company is such a front, they are set up so that even the .gov can't figure it out. 



Mr. HE


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## Tree Pig (Apr 14, 2009)

tree md said:


> Any owner who is fool enough to be doing that right now is not long for this world and I would wonder how he ever got in his position to begin with.



I agree but it was the only logical explanation I could think of. Paying all his workers to be out there that long when it should have been a fast job is also a quick way in to the used equipment business.


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## prentice110 (Apr 14, 2009)

theres a landscaper that i used to sub for till i found out he was under bidding everybody. took him 3 times longer to every job. always had at least 5-6 guys under me. this is the best part, one day he sees my chain and asks me all wide eyed how and why my chain was so short. turns out they didnt even know that you could sharpen saw chain. They were running the dullist chains youve ever seen. I never knew cuz when I do sub work I bring my own saws. Remembering what the old man told me when I first stared out "Its hard to compete against an idiot".


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## treevet (Apr 14, 2009)

Don't forget the big box tree companies whose salesmen sell magical flowery jobs only to be staffed by 1 and 2 year group of green men.


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## prentice110 (Apr 15, 2009)

treevet said:


> Don't forget the big box tree companies whose salesmen sell magical flowery jobs only to be staffed by 1 and 2 year group of green men.



My dad built such a good reputation, that the care of trees will hire anyone I let go. So far theyve picked up at least 2 guys I got rid of because I didnt think they were suited for the work. Last I hear one of them is a climbing crew leader. Go figure.


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## treevet (Apr 15, 2009)

You can hide in a big company. In a small company your faults are glaring.


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## Lawnmowerboy48 (Apr 15, 2009)

If you launder money through your company amazing things can happen. There is a company in my area that is doing so. For $1200 the police station got 12 massive pines removed by 5 guys, BB 1990, 30 ton crane, and bucket over a day and a half. They are a bunch of hacks that have just the slightest clue as how to stay alive at work.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 20, 2009)

*found out about the $$*

Rang the doorbell yesterday and talked to the owner, a new neighbor. Really nice guy, with 9 month old baby. Told me the tree job was $2000, including stump... That is 7 men, crane, bucket, skid loader, dump truck, chip truck and chipper, for over 12 hours, & wood and chip disposal. And moved the stump grindings out of the hole, whough not a great clean up there... 

The the homeowner told me he knew the company owner from high school and the guy charged him an extra $500 because the stump grinder hit a "metal pole" that the tree had grown around and he had to replace the teeth... So the it ended up costing him $2500 total....
I kept my mouth shut...


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## treevet (Apr 20, 2009)

forget about the equipment that is about 28$ man hour if say 6 man hours for disposal of debris and wood after gone.

Not the ho's fault but what a stinker for everyone that sells work in the area and people he talks to.


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## Mike Sauers (Apr 20, 2009)

Daniel, I'm from the Willow Grove area, but have come across you at climbing competitions & ISA events. I was just curious if the company that did that job was Monster Tree Service?


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## M.Green - SVTS (Apr 20, 2009)

They probably conned your nice neighbor who doesn't know the true value of treework into all that work. Crane work here goes for 170/hr minimum 6 hrs. 

Maybe the business owner wanted to get his money's worth out of the crane since they usually don't come out for a couple hours and if they do you have to pay them for a minimum 6. 

The more people on site the more he can charge the homeowner. What a snake. It's a shame. 

I am taking down 5 50' pines with about 5 tops on each of them, and a maple for 800$ in two weeks. Can anyone say honestly that that is overbidding a job?


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## oldirty (Apr 20, 2009)

M.Green - SVTS said:


> I am taking down 5 50' pines with about 5 tops on each of them, and a maple for 800$ in two weeks. Can anyone say honestly that that is overbidding a job?




i'd say you are well on your way to underbidding them, thats for sure.


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## treevet (Apr 20, 2009)

I'd say. That's about $130 ea. 

Why wouldn't 5 pines have 5 tops on them? or have I misunderstood?


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Apr 21, 2009)

I used to sell watermelons from the back of a pick-up truck. I would pay $2.00 ea. and sell them at $2.00 ea. Man, I would sell out in no time. Then one customer asked me " how do you make a profit"?. I thought about it and the next day I went out and bought a 45ft. semi-trailer and tractor. Then I went back to the same field and had them fill the trailer with $2.00 watermelon.The same worried customer stopped and bought 2 watermelon at $2.00 ea. from the semi-trailer. He then noticed my larger truck and once again asked me, "how do you make a profit". I thought about his question and answered with one simple word " VOLUME "!!!!!! :jawdrop:


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2009)

treevet said:


> I'd say. That's about $130 ea.
> 
> Why wouldn't 5 pines have 5 tops on them? or have I misunderstood?



5 different leaders. And who can tell how much its worth from the info supplied so far? BUT from that info I do gather the job is for a friend... a very close friend.


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2009)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> I used to sell watermelons from the back of a pick-up truck. I would pay $2.00 ea. and sell them at $2.00 ea. Man, I would sell out in no time. Then one customer asked me " how do you make a profit"?. I thought about it and the next day I went out and bought a 45ft. semi-trailer and tractor. Then I went back to the same field and had them fill the trailer with $2.00 watermelon.The same worried customer stopped and bought 2 watermelon at $2.00 ea. from the semi-trailer. He then noticed my larger truck and once again asked me, "how do you make a profit". I thought about his question and answered with one simple word " VOLUME "!!!!!! :jawdrop:



wait a minute.Huh? Oh that's funny. I did better than that though, my melons cost 3


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## M.Green - SVTS (Apr 21, 2009)

treemandan said:


> 5 different leaders. And who can tell how much its worth from the info supplied so far? BUT from that info I do gather the job is for a friend... a very close friend.



Actually, my business is 4 months old, going on 5. I am trying to make a good name for myself in the area by bidding as low as I can but at the same time paying my employees, maintaining equipment, and paying my own bills. 

I met the person as I was bartering for a plow with his neighbor, the guy wanted 2 100' pines taken down surrounded by powerlines within a minimum approach of 2'4". I declined that I would rather buy the plow then have the utility company in my area hate me before I really get going. He then said, "Well, my neighbor wants an estimate let's take a walk over there." He introduced me, and I gave him an offer that no one around could beat and I am going to show him a good display of my skills and how hard my groundmen work. He signed the contract on the spot. It will take us half a day and I'll earn 300$ approximately for myself. 

Once demand for my services goes up so will the price. But times are tough for everyone and I have condolences for anyone with pine on there property so by giving me the work and keeping my crew busy I'd love to get rid of some more pines. My goal is to cut them all down in the world one at a time! ha


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## M.Green - SVTS (Apr 21, 2009)

treevet said:


> I'd say. That's about $130 ea.
> 
> Why wouldn't 5 pines have 5 tops on them? or have I misunderstood?



Right, each pine has atleast 3 leads, one of them has 5 leads. (I am sure everyone knows that most pine leads grow straight up and I'd say 60% of them that I have seen don't spread like hardwood) My fault for not clarifying


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2009)

M.Green - SVTS said:


> Actually, my business is 4 months old, going on 5. I am trying to make a good name for myself in the area by bidding as low as I can but at the same time paying my employees, maintaining equipment, and paying my own bills.
> 
> I met the person as I was bartering for a plow with his neighbor, the guy wanted 2 100' pines taken down surrounded by powerlines within a minimum approach of 2'4". I declined that I would rather buy the plow then have the utility company in my area hate me before I really get going. He then said, "Well, my neighbor wants an estimate let's take a walk over there." He introduced me, and I gave him an offer that no one around could beat and I am going to show him a good display of my skills and how hard my groundmen work. He signed the contract on the spot. It will take us half a day and I'll earn 300$ approximately for myself.
> 
> Once demand for my services goes up so will the price. But times are tough for everyone and I have condolences for anyone with pine on there property so by giving me the work and keeping my crew busy I'd love to get rid of some more pines. My goal is to cut them all down in the world one at a time! ha



I think it sounds good. Nice goal, uhm, good luck with that?:greenchainsaw:


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## John464 (Apr 21, 2009)

M.Green - SVTS said:


> I am trying to make a good name for myself in the area by bidding as low as I can but at the same time paying my employees, maintaining equipment, and paying my own bills.



the name you will make for yourself is the cheap new guy that is ruining the tree industry in your area, I have seen them come and go and the ones with above business model either run themselves dry or get run out of town. There may be hits out on ya already.

tree work is not a just getting by paying the bills job. it is a high risk, highly skilled, high overhead(if ran properly) business. Just paying your bills is not the name of this game. Make a thick profit with trees or go cut grass.


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## capetrees (Apr 21, 2009)

John464 said:


> the name you will make for yourself is the cheap new guy that is ruining the tree industry in your area, I have seen them come and go and the ones with above business model either run themselves dry or get run out of town. There may be hits out on ya already.
> 
> tree work is not a just getting by paying the bills job. it is a high risk, highly skilled, high overhead(if ran properly) business. Just paying your bills is not the name of this game. Make a thick profit with trees or go cut grass.



And this is the exact reason he has the ability to undercut. If he's doing the same job you do and able to do it for cheaper, he gets the job. Period. High overhead if run properly? What does that mean? He's probably doing the same job with less equipment and paying his guys less. Ruining the biz? here we go again ....


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 21, 2009)

John464 said:


> the name you will make for yourself is the cheap new guy that is ruining the tree industry in your area, I have seen them come and go and the ones with above business model either run themselves dry or get run out of town. There may be hits out on ya already.
> 
> tree work is not a just getting by paying the bills job. it is a high risk, highly skilled, high overhead(if ran properly) business. Just paying your bills is not the name of this game. Make a thick profit with trees or go cut grass.



+100


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## tree md (Apr 21, 2009)

Wow, I just bid 5 pines for $1375 and thought that was cheap as hell. It's getting cut throat out there!!!


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## treevet (Apr 21, 2009)

M.Green - SVTS said:


> Actually, my business is 4 months old, I'd love to get rid of some more pines. My goal is to cut them all down in the world one at a time! ha



watcha ya got against all the pines M. Green?

Sounds like more than a half dayer for a 4 month man.


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## M.Green - SVTS (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm not cut throating. I am just trying to get started. Keep in mind my business has been open 4 months. The companies surrounding me have been in business for years. The newest aside from mine is 4 years old. I have been a trimmer for much time and I have been removing hazards from RI to MA for a few years now. 

I can't even quit my day job that's how low my customer base is. Nothing repeat yet but I've been praised at every job I've done and earned some word of mouth. Well I wasn't "praised" at my very first job but that was because I told the homeowner I'd do this that and everything else even though I didn't contract it. I went there to drop a willow, and chip the brush from an ice storm. I threw in a free stumpgrinding, free trimming of all the other damaged trees (6 of them), I told him I'd remove a huge pile of brush from years of him just stacking it, and then I broke my wrist and pelvis. Let's just say I did everything I said I was going to even though it wasn't in writing but it took longer then we expected because of everything being buried under 4 feet of snow. Even though the work got done I don't think he'll be calling me back in. Man, I sure did learn a lesson that weekend.


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## M.Green - SVTS (Apr 22, 2009)

Wow I didn't read 4 posts up before the last. I didn't realize I was getting hated on. Take it easy guys I'm opting out of this thread before I get murdered.


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## oldirty (Apr 22, 2009)

just bid accordingly man. whatever you feel is fair add at least 500 and you might be getting close to the actual number needed. good luck out there.


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## capetrees (Apr 22, 2009)

M.Green - SVTS said:


> Wow I didn't read 4 posts up before the last. I didn't realize I was getting hated on. Take it easy guys I'm opting out of this thread before I get murdered.



Don't let the primadonas get you down. If you make money doing what you do and the customers are happy, you're doing a good job. Look around the site. Some of these guys that are so "great " at what they do sit home all day and take pictures of people working asking "how do they make money?". Easy, they get off their asses and go to work! Some of these guys think they have cornered the market in their areas and feel their prices are the best they can be. WRONG. Someone else, especially in this economy, can do it for less and is willing to bend his price. All the expertise and wisdom of how to cut a tree down doesn't help if you're unwilling to go to work and use your knowledge. Neighbors in some of these threads have hired others instead of some of these guys in here. Gee, I wonder why? I actually work for free fo my neighbors and that word of mouth gets around like wild fire. Not that I'm cheap but that I'm a good guy willing to go to work. Keep up the good work M.Green-SVTS and stay safe. Whatever you're doing is working.


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## John464 (Apr 22, 2009)

capetrees,

the guy said he is happy with a $300 profit. How can a properly run tree company run on a $300 day profit? I could work for someone else making $300 a day. Heck I would cut grass and work just as long with less expense and risk and make that. TREE WORK DESERVES GREAT PAY/PROFIT Most of his profit should be putt back into the company since he's a start up. At minimal profit he wont be able to buy a chipper and a decent truck. He will be stuck in a rut and ruin the value in tree care for his area. The tree care industry should have no tolerance for those who devalue our occupations.


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## treevet (Apr 22, 2009)

M.Green - SVTS said:


> and then I broke my wrist and pelvis.



I would help my neighbors with anything but not my profession. Where do you draw the line as to who to give it away to...nbors, close friends, family, advocates, business associates, etc.?

Giving away your profession is silly.

How'd you break your wrist and pelvis? Man a broken pelvis (and even wrist) seem like nearly a permanent disability to a treeman.


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## Raymond (Apr 22, 2009)

I wish I could afford to run around worrying about other tree services.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 22, 2009)

treevet said:


> I used to be based in NJ and have fam in NJ. You usually get the weather we get the next day. It was supposed to rain here all day. Turned out to be just a sprinkle in the am.
> 
> Equipment is everything but like said, you have to build up to using it.
> 
> You get the pick up, add a chipper, add a dump, add a picker, get a bigger truck and chipper, add a used truck crane, need a wood truck, mini skids, dump trailers, stumpers, buy it all. If you can make good purchases you are not in the rat race anymore. And with time comes you become the old sage (in their minds) for just surviving it all. You accumulate clients the low ballers can't touch.





I don't mean to sound loco but if NJ sunk into the abyss I would never miss it one bit. That was the most unfriendly place I had ever been, my wife had to stop me several times as I was about to give hospitality lessons.


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## tree MDS (Apr 22, 2009)

treevet said:


> I would help my neighbors with anything but not my profession. Where do you draw the line as to who to give it away to...nbors, close friends, family, advocates, business associates, etc.?
> 
> Giving away your profession is silly.
> 
> How'd you break your wrist and pelvis? Man a broken pelvis (and even wrist) seem like nearly a permanent disability to a treeman.



I find it nearly impossible to give deals to anyone, I just get to the bid, and like a machine look at the trees and see $$. Doesnt matter, friends, relatives, whoever. I cant help myself.


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## Raymond (Apr 22, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I find it nearly impossible to give deals to anyone, I just get to the bid, and like a machine look at the trees and see $$. Doesnt matter, friends, relatives, whoever. I cant help myself.


In todays world you can't. Wouldn't it be nice if we could?


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## tree md (Apr 22, 2009)

I work for immediate family for free and help an elderly neighbor out delivering and splitting firewood for free, that's it. I still don't see how someone can make it charging a hundred dollars a tree??? I mean on the job I mentioned I charged $150 for two of the pines but they were about 13 feet tall. Hell you can't get someone to haul away that much anything for a hundred bucks, let alone the fact that you are using thousands of dollars worth of equipment that most folks don't own to do it with. 

Hey charge what you want but if your letting your customers whip you like that, working for basic climbers pay and getting seriously hurt in the process I can't see you making it long.

I'd rather work for someone else and have them deal with the headache and liability.


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## B-Edwards (Apr 22, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> Remembering what the old man told me when I first stared out "Its hard to compete against an idiot".



That is Golden!!!!!! and the Truth!!!!!!!


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## tree MDS (Apr 22, 2009)

Raymond said:


> In todays world you can't. Wouldn't it be nice if we could?



I suppose yer right...but only to a point. I aint working for nothing either, I've worked to hard to get to where I am. But I'll go a little easier on em this year. Most things so far have been referal, so I dont have to go too easy.

I busted my a$$ last year (during the season) so this year I think I'll just take it easy, enjoy the work and go with the flow. Kind of nice for a change. I've got enough equipment to satisfy myself for awhile, besides I'll always survive in the season. Winter is another story, always thinking about that...

If it really heats up I'll be ready for war though.


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## Raymond (Apr 22, 2009)

I can be cheap or even sometimes free for friends and family I guess, if involves polesawing up a few trees and I don't have to haul it.

But yeah if I need my help and chipper truck it's another story. Or if I think I will need a shower and Advil when we're done. 

What kills me is when a friend says I'll help you do this, I need to get this done. But then they run in and out of the house helping the wife do crap that could wait. Or walking off talking to people on the phone.

I've been known to load my gear up and leave in the middle of friends charity jobs. With a call wondering where I went. I just explain, you seemed so busy, so I left.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Apr 22, 2009)

How much you charge depends on your overhaed. I am not defending cheap tree work but everyones operation is different. I myself have to charge at least 100 an hour. Thats bottom figure. But then again all my equipment is paid for. In the end, I would definatly not take down 5 pines and a maple for 800. Well mabey if i could notch and drop with no cleanup. I love those jobs. Quick easy money.


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## treemandan (Apr 22, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I don't mean to sound loco but if NJ sunk into the abyss I would never miss it one bit. That was the most unfriendly place I had ever been, my wife had to stop me several times as I was about to give hospitality lessons.



You are not loco.


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## prentice110 (Apr 3, 2011)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> What economic environment? This economy is not in as bad of shape as everyone says it is. So a few auto workers ( I used to be one) lose their jobs and real estate goes down, a few other companies who were operating on borrowed money go down and all of a sudden the economy is gonna colapse. Nonesense!


 
Id like to see what this guys got to say about it now.


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