# How do you all climb?



## Mass tree guy (Mar 18, 2010)

fast furious taking chances?


just kidding..

I'm talking about do you use what we call a split tail or bowline and a blakes hitch?

Is there any other way to climb? Some guys at work talk about climbing on a taughtline hitch..No idea what that is..that guy was 75 years old and worked for your office @ Bartlett for 50 years.. no lie...dude used to spray ddt and paint tree limbs..

I use a split tail which is a 4 foot line attached to a locking caribeaner or spreader snap...I like it because you can quickly and easily change the location of your climbing line with a few motions. It maybe faster but I have seen some of the best climbers use bowline and blakes..

thoughts?
comments?
concerns?


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## ozzy42 (Mar 18, 2010)

Climbed on a blakes and bowline for a lot of years .
Just switched to a split tail a few months ago.

Made my own with a 4ft piece of climbing line
and a steel rope snap to see if I liked it.

I liked it .

Now I'm using 10 mm eye2eye and a brass clip for slack tending on 
an alumimum tri lock krab ,terminating to an aluminum rope snap tied in
with a bowline with a yosemite . I don't care for a trip fisherman knot unless I want it to stay put.The bowline works for me with the yosemite leaving the end of the rope parrelell to the end of the rope.

Also using same set up with 8ft of arborplex for a lanyard,only terminating it with a tripple fisherman to the rope snap.

Amost forgot .Both friction hitches are VT .


Old dog learning some new tricks.


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## tr33thri11s (Mar 18, 2010)

tautline is a friction hitch tied with two wraps under two wraps over. The tail exits opposite the line coming from the bowline tied to the snap. It is a useful hitch but tends to roll (tighten up) more than the blakes.


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## Tree Pig (Mar 18, 2010)

24" piece of HRC (still havent tested the 8mm beeline bought last year) tied with distel and petzl micro pulley. 1/2" Arbor Boss climb line with rope clip on working end williams ball lock biners on running end.


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## ronnyb (Mar 18, 2010)

Lockjack sport


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## fishercat (Mar 19, 2010)

*I tried the VT.............*

too complicated.

I went back to a Blake's with split tail.So much faster and simpler.


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## ozzy42 (Mar 19, 2010)

fishercat said:


> too complicated.
> 
> I went back to a Blake's with split tail.So much faster and simpler.




It can be a little finicky ,but I wanted to use a spliced eye split-tail ,and didn't feel safe using a blakes with a smaller diameter [10 mm me thinks] chord .

Probably is safe ,but it just looked wrong when I tied it ,so started working with the VT.


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## treeseer (Mar 19, 2010)

tr33thri11s said:


> tautline is a friction hitch tied with two wraps under two wraps over. The tail exits opposite the line coming from the bowline tied to the snap. It is a useful hitch but tends to roll (tighten up) more than the blakes.


not necessarily; i do 3 or 4 under counterclockwise 2 over clockwise. control is fine; no rollout and seldom binds. works fine; so often repeated it is automatic. works with 3/8 (old days) or 10-11 mm.

tried vt then forgot; considering splittail again so i can relearn it with my 20 yr old who wants to use a micropulley, pulling his pa into the future. :blush:


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 19, 2010)

fishercat said:


> too complicated.
> 
> I went back to a Blake's with split tail.So much faster and simpler.



You might want to try a knut or a distel.


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## Mikecutstrees (Mar 19, 2010)

Split tail and blakes here on a eye splice...... Mike


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## RAG66 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm sure most will not like it but mostly I climb old school flipline on straight up spars for removal. If I do preservation work (thin & prune, ETC.) I'll climb on Samson velocity with bailout prusik cord in the form of the VT. with slack tender pulley on Petzl william carabiner. I do a lot of stuff the old way, not for everyone but effective, and I feel confident in my gear.


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## pdqdl (Mar 20, 2010)

I never did the Blakes, except for a few times. I went from Prussic to VT.

By the way, according to the Boy Scouts, the taut line hitch is one under and two over. I learned it out of the book 40 years ago. I'll agree that an awful lot of tree climbing books will tell you a taut line hitch is 2 under & two over.

Damn. I can't find by ABOK...


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## rarefish383 (Mar 20, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I never did the Blakes, except for a few times. I went from Prussic to VT.
> 
> By the way, according to the Boy Scouts, the taut line hitch is one under and two over. I learned it out of the book 40 years ago. I'll agree that an awful lot of tree climbing books will tell you a taut line hitch is 2 under & two over.
> 
> Technically the Scouts are correct. If I run 1 under 2 the knot will slip, so I use 2 and 2. I still call it a taughtline, Joe


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## treeslayer (Mar 20, 2010)

rarefish383 said:


> pdqdl said:
> 
> 
> > I never did the Blakes, except for a few times. I went from Prussic to VT.
> ...


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## tree MDS (Mar 20, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> rarefish383 said:
> 
> 
> > this ain't the boy scouts.............Tautline is 2 up and 2 down. been that way for 30 years in the tree business as I've seen it.
> ...


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## RAG66 (Mar 20, 2010)

I found the VT to be finiky because I made a mistake in the process of set up. The braids were not kept in the correct order. The one that starts from the top needs to stay on the top of the braid all the way to the finish, other wise it wants to shift and unwind. The only way I figured this out was much frustration, finaly looking carefully at the picture and practicing 3-4 times. The other contributing factor was the firmness of the prusik cord, in relation to the climbing line. The relationship of the two is purely climber specific, due to weight and type of tree and your preferences for speed and control.


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## tree MDS (Mar 20, 2010)

RAG66 said:


> I found the VT to be finiky because I made a mistake in the process of set up. The braids were not kept in the correct order. The one that starts from the top needs to stay on the top of the braid all the way to the finish, other wise it wants to shift and unwind. The only way I figured this out was much frustration, finaly looking carefully at the picture and practicing 3-4 times. The other contributing factor was the firmness of the prusik cord, in relation to the climbing line. The relationship of the two is purely climber specific, due to weight and type of tree and your preferences for speed and control.



I'm thinking its just too much really.... screw them damn braids!

Thanks for the input though.


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## tree md (Mar 20, 2010)

You've got to play around and tweak the VT to fine tune it for your personal weight and climbing style. I wasn't crazy about it at first either but I kept playing with it, adjusting the length of my prussic cord, trying different slack tending devices and trying different combinations of coils and braids before I got it dialed in. Another factor is the prussic cord needs time to break in before it really starts to work optimally. That has been my experience with HRC anyway.

I am sure glad I stuck it out with the VT because it is absolutely the sweetest friction hitch I have ever used. After I got mine dialed in it is super responsive. I am using 8mm HRC on Poison Ivy and using a boat swivel snap to tend slack. Works great for me.

This is the only pic I have of my climbing knot. Can't really inspect it closely but you can get an idea of what I use.


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## tree md (Mar 20, 2010)

Oh yeah, just for the record, I am using 4 coils and 2 braids on my VT. Was the best combo for me. Not sure how long my prussic cord is, I use tied eyes and just kept shortening my prussic cord by adjusting the tied eyes. I think I ended up around 22 inches but It's been awhile since I checked it. I'd recommend starting out with tied eyes until you figure out what length your prussic cord needs to be. Then you can buy spiced eyes if you want.


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## tree MDS (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm using the hrc on safety blue, four coils two braids.

Maybe it does need to break in more... not sure whats going on with it, but I'm losing patience. I think I shortened the cord is down to 27" (center to center of eye to eye, with the hitchclimber), this helped with the sit back, but still doesnt want to bite consistently.

Thanks for the input md. I may not give up yet, but I am annoyed with it.


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## tree md (Mar 20, 2010)

I was working with a guy I met from this site yesterday. He uses a Blake's and was watching me climb on the VT. I had to go up and down this tree a few times in the removal, roping process. He saw how well my setup tended slack and how well it bit when I set back that he said he plans to go to this setup. If you ever get it dialed in you'll never use another friction hitch.


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## ozzy42 (Mar 20, 2010)

tree md said:


> You've got to play around and tweak the VT to fine tune it for your personal weight and climbing style. I wasn't crazy about it at first either but I kept playing with it, adjusting the length of my prussic cord, trying different slack tending devices and trying different combinations of coils and braids before I got it dialed in. Another factor is the prussic cord needs time to break in before it really starts to work optimally. That has been my experience with HRC anyway.
> 
> I am sure glad I stuck it out with the VT because it is absolutely the sweetest friction hitch I have ever used. After I got mine dialed in it is super responsive. I am using 8mm HRC on Poison Ivy and using a boat swivel snap to tend slack. Works great for me.
> 
> This is the only pic I have of my climbing knot. Can't really inspect it closely but you can get an idea of what I use.



Thats pretty much what I'm using .
 on the swivel snap too .
I use the same thing.A fraction of the weight and not as bulky either.And a fraction of the cost.


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## tree md (Mar 20, 2010)

Yeah, the swivel snap works great. I have Treeco to thank for that idea. He's the one who advised me to try it.


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## fishercat (Mar 20, 2010)

*tried them.*



Mike Cantolina said:


> You might want to try a knut or a distel.



me no like.

the problem i think is the small diameter rope.yes it takes up less room in the bag and is lighter.those are the only pros.the later being a con as well as a pro.

i am going back to Arbormaster 1/2 soon.


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## WolverineMarine (Mar 21, 2010)

Alot of the guys I used to work with at PennLine used alot of different prusiks..I tried the VT, the taughtline, and the swabish..I like the blakes hands down..its easy to tie once you get the hang of it..its easy to adjust, doesnt jam..I cant complain..I'm sure different knots work better in different circumstances..but for what I'm doing..I'm sold on the Blakes..I just cut about a 4-5 hunk of climb line..tie on a snap..and I'm good..


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## treeclimber101 (Mar 21, 2010)

Two over two , always good fast reliable knot that rarely walks and easy to tie in a pinch also it doesn't glaze the rope as fast as other knots .. Or so I"M told lol..... Hey MTG are you climbing for Bartlett or a greenery mover , cause there gonna train ya there way and atleast you'll learn some really good info from some climbers who aren't drunks or meth heads so pay attention a free education is often tough to find ..


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 21, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> rarefish383 said:
> 
> 
> > this ain't the boy scouts.............Tautline is 2 up and 2 down. been that way for 30 years in the tree business as I've seen it.
> ...


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## soiset (Mar 22, 2010)

Single rope technique. 11 mm static line, Petzl RAD with grigri. Start with a high central ascent, remove ascender and pulley, and get around. Steel core flipline used when advancing anchor point or cutting. Getting quite fast with it, and can anchor from what would otherwise be too weak a stem by routing line back to central anchor to provide countering moment.


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## worthaug (Mar 22, 2010)

Big canopy tree pruning access with petzl rads (LH ascension, grigri, fixe pulley) limbwalk with i2i ice in distel on 7/16 velocity cool. 
Shorter climbs with redirects i2i ice in distel with 2 attatchment Cmi pulley tending, left foot ascender or on belay. Shorter climbs within reach of trunk single eye ice in blake's hitch with tending pulley hip thrustin. Sometime footlock it for fun on hrc prussic on 1/2" arbormaster brw, oh yeah I sit in a sequoia.


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## outofmytree (Mar 23, 2010)

Use the same rig for everything. 12mm XTC fire, terminated with a triple fishermans and a schwabisch (3 over 1)prussik tied in 10mm beeline.

I started with the same rope but using an English prussik, upgraded to a VT and settled on the "swab". I have found if you are having trouble with advanced hitches slipping that shorter lengths of cord with the same number of turns, which gives you shorter "legs" below the hitch, make it easier for the hitch to grab after it is advanced.


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## talltreeclimber (Mar 23, 2010)

Blakes hitch but cganging over to a split tail.. i have a PETZL Sequoia with a floating bridge with a hitch climber micro pully. i have used Mikecutstrees split tail with my blakes hitch setup to double crotch... my pully is set up perfect for it because of the three holes for carabiners.


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## B-Edwards (Mar 23, 2010)

Split with a double eye spliced prusik.


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## Mass tree guy (Mar 23, 2010)

can someone explain to me what a VT is and where to find good info on it.


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## ozzy42 (Mar 23, 2010)

It's a state in new england.
Can probably find it on google earth.

















Just kidding .
It is a friction hitch that terminates both ends back to the caribiner,a combo of coils and X braids around the main line.
Probably find pics here somewhere.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 23, 2010)

Damn, how much spreading around to rep someone? 
Jeff


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## ozzy42 (Mar 23, 2010)

Here's A pic Treemd posted.


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## tree md (Mar 23, 2010)

Mass tree guy said:


> can someone explain to me what a VT is and where to find good info on it.



Here is a link to TreeSpyder's site which has tons of info on just about any knot pertaining to tree work that you can think of. It also has step by step instructions to tie the knots . 

http://www.mytreelessons.com/index.htm

Might want to bookmark his site. It's an excellent resource to keep handy.


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## tree md (Mar 24, 2010)

Here's a better pic of my VT. You can inspect it a little closer. Plus you can see the swivel snap:





Here is an old split tail setup I used to climb on a few years back. It's tied with a Blakes but I went back to a 5 coil prussic not long after I tried it out. I never was crazy about the Blakes hitch:





One of the biggest differences in climbing on the VT is that you will never have to break your knot again. The braids bend your line when you work it and keep the coils from ever binding.


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## outofmytree (Mar 25, 2010)

Silky sugoi, MS441 and a Petzl sequoia. Did you steal my climbing kit!!!!!!


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

Well, you got the Sugoi right. But the saddle is actually a Petzl Navaho Mini Boss and the saw is an 044... As well as a 260 and 361.


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## tree MDS (Mar 25, 2010)

tree md said:


> I was working with a guy I met from this site yesterday. He uses a Blake's and was watching me climb on the VT. I had to go up and down this tree a few times in the removal, roping process. He saw how well my setup tended slack and how well it bit when I set back that he said he plans to go to this setup. If you ever get it dialed in you'll never use another friction hitch.



I spent some time up in a big white oak today with the setup again... I'm gonna try the bottom two holes on the HC next time, even with the spliced eye there is still some interference using the top hole. I think this may solve most of the problem I was having.

Yes, the slack tending is awesome. I doubt I will look back either once I finish getting it all dialed in just right. That damn bucket is the reason its been taking me so long to work this out - may leave that thing sitting on its ass back at the shop a bit more this year. Sure feel good to do some real climbing for a change!


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 25, 2010)

Here's what I use


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I spent some time up in a big white oak today with the setup again... I'm gonna try the bottom two holes on the HC next time, even with the spliced eye there is still some interference using the top hole. I think this may solve most of the problem I was having.
> 
> Yes, the slack tending is awesome. I doubt I will look back either once I finish getting it all dialed in just right. That damn bucket is the reason its been taking me so long to work this out - may leave that thing sitting on its ass back at the shop a bit more this year. Sure feel good to do some real climbing for a change!



What are you using to attach your hitchclimber to your saddle?

Sounds to me like you need to shorten up your prussic cord a little. That helps it to bite a little better I think. Maybe try to add a coil to shorten it and see how that works.


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## tree MDS (Mar 25, 2010)

Mike Cantolina said:


> Here's what I use



Speaking of white oak... 

Whats that knot you got goin on there mike??


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

Mike Cantolina said:


> Here's what I use



Is that a Distel Mike?


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 25, 2010)

knut hitch.............it's not perfect but I like it better than the vt


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 25, 2010)

It's very similar to a distel. To be honest I forget what the difference is, I'd have to look it up.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

I might give it a try. I've got my VT dialed in to where it almost acts like a mechanical grab. I'm still up for trying new hitches though. Never know, I might even like it better than the VT.


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## tree MDS (Mar 25, 2010)

tree md said:


> What are you using to attach your hitchclimber to your saddle?
> 
> Sounds to me like you need to shorten up your prussic cord a little. That helps it to bite a little better I think. Maybe try to add a coil to shorten it and see how that works.



Just the webbing on my versatile to one of the HC beaners.

I think the vt is short enough. I think the spliced eye is tripping the vt. bottom two holes next time.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Just the webbing on my versatile to one of the HC beaners.
> 
> I think the vt is short enough. I think the spliced eye is tripping the vt. bottom two holes next time.



Mine ran a lot better when I did away with the pulley altogether. When I did away with the pulley and just used the swivel snap it all fell into place.


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## tree MDS (Mar 25, 2010)

tree md said:


> Mine ran a lot better when I did away with the pulley altogether. When I did away with the pulley and just used the swivel snap it all fell into place.



Maybe you can get a better pic of how you're using that dog clip up sometime. I tend to over complicate things sometimes is the thing... I'm really not as slow as I might appear though. lol.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

I'll get a pic up a little later for ya. 

The swivel snap and VT is just a real simple rig. I know you can do a lot with the HC like hand over hand, and double crotch but I've got ascenders to rope climb with and I can just clip another rig to my rope bridge if I want to double crotch. I have found that I can do just about anything on my simple little setup. I like it. It's simple and light.


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## pdqdl (Mar 25, 2010)

Mike Cantolina said:


> Here's what I use



Would that be a Distel-ed VT?


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 25, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Would that be a Distel-ed VT?



Notice how the half hitch goes over top of the other leg. A distel doesn't do this. It also keeps it from grabbing to hard.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

So how well does it tend slack without any hardware?


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 25, 2010)

I do have a micro pulley in there. It's hard to see. It works well enough without it but I choke my line sometimes and come down short distances srt. This of course bites pretty hard, so I use the micro pulley to release it.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

I didn't notice the micro pulley. Makes sense though. I read somewhere that you can tend slack one handed with the knut without any hardware. Was just wondering if you had tried it.


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, if I could stay off of srt I wouldn't need the pulley.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

MDS, here's a couple more pics. Hopefully you can see how the swivel snap tends slack a little better here. Very responsive knot and no slippage whatsoever when I set back. I don't footlock because I use ascenders but it would work great for footlocking.


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## tree md (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes, I have shorted it quite a bit but agree it could stand to be shortened a little more. I shortened it to a point where it started running and biting well and just left it at that. It works well but could stand to be a little shorter. I intend to buy enough cordage where I can make as many of whatever length I want here in the near future. That is just a long length of HRC I got a couple of years ago when I first started experimenting with a tress cord. When I climbed on a regular split tail or traditional setup I always liked to keep about a 6 inch bridge. That kept my knot at a certain point in relation to me on my line. The tress cord is still a little longer than I prefer but is working so well I just decided to leave it where it is for now. I am still tweaking my setup though and plan to experiment with an even shorter e2e in the future.

You can probably get an idea of how well it is working for me in this pic. I had to get all the way out on the fork of this one and my VT runs perfect for limb walking:


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## tree MDS (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for getting that pic up for me md. I'll have to try that sometime.

I think I'll stick with the HC for now, since I'm finally getting used to that (and liking it). I'll probably play with some of the other knots (like the ones mike mentioned), at some point too. 

The limb walking thing is sweet with this new stuff, but I would still take the good ole taughtline for rappelling or swinging/rappelling any day. In fact I would pretty much consider the old dog to be the cadillac when it comes to that... of course the older I get the less and less appealing all that seems anyway. lol.


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## Bermie (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm using a VT/hitchclimber on my XTC fire...moved on from blakes and no need to look back.
Some folks think the HC setup is too bulky for manouvering through a pruning job in smallish trees...I can say its absolutely fine.
I tie a fishermans on the end, use two ajacent holes and its works just fine, got a 28" i2i for the VT.


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