# Descending out of tree



## changetires (Oct 2, 2006)

What are some good techniques for coming down a single line from a topped out spar. Sunday I had to take down 3 trees. One was close to a power line so it had to be topped out before falling. So I climbed it then topped it out but instead of climbing down I tied off a single line rope to the top and tried using a blakes to slide down on, but the blakes really bound up on the way down and I tried stopping a couple of times to loosen it up but it would still bind up tight. I came to the conclusion that since it was a single rope there was too much weight on it for it to slide easily. What are some other good hitches that could be used with a single rope? Just wondering, I could always just put it over the crotch and double rope it down.


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## xtremetrees (Oct 2, 2006)

Alot of times off spar theres no crotch to double rope and use the blakes.
What you did should have resulted in your death.! :censored: 
Most friction hitches will not sieze up like that did. 
Use a fig. 8 
or a munter hitch on a "D" wide gate biner instead.
or a air traffic controller.
Were glad you didnt fall thou the best veteran climbers I know can barely feed themselves parapaligic! No rope at all was involved. 
The point is friction and where to get it. Did you burn your hands?


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## xtremetrees (Oct 2, 2006)

changetires said:


> What are some other good hitches that could be used with a single rope? QUOTE]
> \
> There are none that I know of exist. Go mechanical. I still got my 50 $ fig 8 and its 10 years old. Used it today.


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## beowulf343 (Oct 2, 2006)

The figure 8 does work really good in that situation (just in case you couldn't figure out what extreme was trying to say.)


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## xtremetrees (Oct 2, 2006)

lol some people :monkey:


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## clearance (Oct 2, 2006)

Figure 8 devices are banned here, just saying.


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## woodchux (Oct 2, 2006)

I like to use a fig 8 or a munter, and back em up with a blakes. Adding an extra turn on the blakes hitch helps with the binding problem.


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## RolloriClimber (Oct 2, 2006)

Get a figure 8 I have 3 and they come in handy, for when you have to go way out from your center point to tie a lowering line, instead of doing the Tarzan like I did when I was younger you can put the 8 on the lowering line and have a controled swing back for when you are feeling old and frail.

When your ground man dissappeared for a second and wanting to lower a limb they make a decent friction for lowering, in the right situation


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 3, 2006)

Why is coming down a single roap "death"? 

I top rope and come down all the time, with a friction hitch; I like it better than a figure 8, because if you stop and do something on the way down, you don't have to tie off and hope the 8 dosen't slip. 

The issue here is, did he leave stubs to put his rope over? Did he go around the trunk went he did so? Or did he cut a slot in the top? The blakes tightening up is a separate issue. I like using a tautline; sometimes I have to stop, wrap my flipline, and fix the not when it tightens up.


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## xtremetrees (Oct 3, 2006)

You dont rapell down a single rope with a friction hitch do you?

I seen a guy fall right next to me rapelling down a single rope with a taughtline hitch. "CRACK" sounded like a 2X4 breaking when he hit the ground.


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## SRT-Tech (Oct 3, 2006)

ooooh bad idea....you descend, your going faster than on a drt setup, the friction hitch heats up, starts glazing on the inside, which in turns makes you descend faster, which melts the inside of the hitch, creating a melted rope lubricant, you speed up faster and faster, globs of melted rope dropping onthe ground, on your hand, burning your hand, you let go, you lose control, your falling, your impact.

you have just rappelled the rope hiway of death. 


best to use firmware descenders on a SRT (single rope) rappel.

figure 8s (aw pipe down Clearance!  ), rappel racks, ATC's etc.


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## xtremetrees (Oct 3, 2006)

Rollori if you had 8 limbs to lower at 1000 lbs each and had 8 fig. 8's and slings you could rig the whole tree off one single line anchored below your tie in. Of course the ground man would controll the amount of friction on the ground by tightening the lowering line and then slacking it a little. the rope wouldn't be running thru his hand.
This is all theoritical ive never sent a fig 8 to the ground while lowering


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 3, 2006)

In DdRT at a given body speed; rope is moving thru hitch 2x as fast as same body speed in DRT. i really think the secret between the 2 is the way that DdRT allows the static leg to take the load; so that hitch unloads and can thereby slide easily on dynamic leg of support.

Later in rappel, due to the high friuction in DRT/ hitch not unloaded on slide; we get the heat ovecoming the synthetics and making 'oil'/ hot 'wax' allowing even faster slide as SRT says; but initially speed is against DdRT; jsut not as much friction IMLHO.


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## dakota (Oct 3, 2006)

I leave enough of a stub after topping to act as a crotch so that rappelling is safe enough. Even if I have to stop along the way, my rope can be reset. No extra fig 8s or other junk needed. Simple is as simple does.


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 3, 2006)

clearance said:


> Figure 8 devices are banned here, just saying.




Whats up with this????


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## moss (Oct 3, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> In DdRT at a given body speed; rope is moving thru hitch 2x as fast as same body speed in DRT. i really think the secret between the 2 is the way that DdRT allows the static leg to take the load; so that hitch unloads and can thereby slide easily on dynamic leg of support.
> 
> Later in rappel, due to the high friuction in DRT/ hitch not unloaded on slide; we get the heat ovecoming the synthetics and making 'oil'/ hot 'wax' allowing even faster slide as SRT says; but initially speed is against DdRT; jsut not as much friction IMLHO.



TreeSpyder seems to be the only climber who talks about and clearly explains the load/unload dynamics in DdRT. To add to that, in DdRTyou're belaying 2:1 with the running end or down rope, so you have the option to control your descent with your right hand as well as with the hitch. With SRT everything's on the hitch, you have no belay unless you call grabbing the rope with your other hand a belay. At best you're going to have jerky ride down. Everyone else described the worst case scenario. Hardware is the way to go, Petzl ID, GriGri, Mini-rack, Fig8 or whatever rocks your boat. If you want to use a friction hitch for descent go down DdRT with a removable false crotch.
-moss


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## changetires (Oct 3, 2006)

I left a crotch from a top limb for the tie off point. No I didnt burn my hand and since this was the first time I was trying this type of belay I stayed fairly close to the spar with my scare strap still around the tree. Yes it was becoming a jerky ride down. I loosened the hitch a couple of times on the way down and then said forget it and just spiked my way back down. It was quicker to spike my way down than to stop and fool with the hitch. Thanks for the info from everyone.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 3, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> ooooh bad idea....you descend, your going faster than on a drt setup, the friction hitch heats up, starts glazing on the inside, which in turns makes you descend faster, which melts the inside of the hitch, creating a melted rope lubricant, you speed up faster and faster, globs of melted rope dropping onthe ground, on your hand, burning your hand, you let go, you lose control, your falling, your impact.
> 
> you have just rappelled the rope hiway of death.
> 
> ...



Maybe I should elaborate--

If I was doing a true rapel, as in fast, I would use the 8. What I'm talking about is working my way down and cleaning the tree, such as a big conifer, as I go. If I just have 30 or 40 feet and no work to do, I might also use the tautline, and stop a few times to let the rope cool down. I suppose I could take some prusik loops to help me switch off to figure 8 in that case. I finally switched to a split tail, so now most of the heat and wear is on the split tail.


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## SRT-Tech (Oct 3, 2006)

AH! i gotcha now.... i thought you were rapping top to bottom on a single line with friction hitch. 

makes sense now. But i (personally) would still use hardware, probably a rack that can be easily and quickly locked off whil you work.


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## beowulf343 (Oct 3, 2006)

clearance said:


> Figure 8 devices are banned here, just saying.


Really? I had no idea! Can I ask some questions about this?
1. Who banned the figure 8-the outfit you work for, B.C., Canada, or someone else?
2. Are they just banned or actually illegal?
3. Who polices figure 8 usage?
4. What are the consequences if you get caught using a figure 8?
5. Why are they banned?
6. Can you get in trouble for even carrying one?

The reason I ask is because I have done storm work in Canada on several occasions. My figure 8 is usually attached to my saddle and I know of several occasions where I have used it while in Canadian territory. Should I stop bringing it on my treks across the border?

(Huh, now that I've confessed on a public forum, how long before the mounties are beating down my door? Maybe I'd better get rid of the evidence! Anyone want to buy a couple of figure 8's cheap-got to get rid of them immediately!!!! Wait I hear someone at the door now--nooooooooo!!)


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## xtremetrees (Oct 3, 2006)

Yeah Ill buy any steel 8's you got with or without ears. Ill send um all to the ground to. ha. Nice post


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 4, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> AH! i gotcha now.... i thought you were rapping top to bottom on a single line with friction hitch.
> 
> makes sense now. But i (personally) would still use hardware, probably a rack that can be easily and quickly locked off whil you work.



I've used a rack before with kern mantle rope, for practicing crane evacuation. They're great. Wife dosen't know yet that I spent around $600 on gear and books at the ISA meeting. Maybe in a couple months I'll get a rack.

Maybe you can explain---why is it that some climbers use a Blakes followed up with a small pulley? I have yet to figure out how to get myself up a tree (or up higher from my initial tie-in) with a friction hitch. I use a set of ascenders (jumars), but problem is, then you need a second rope to move around. Or I shinny up a trunk with a flip line (a pain). Of course, we are taking hardwoods here; I free climb, using my spikes and flip line as needed to get up conifers. I'll try the secured foot lock with a set of prusik loops next on a doubled rope; that was the set up for the climbing competition at ISA.


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## clearance (Oct 4, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Really? I had no idea! Can I ask some questions about this?
> 1. Who banned the figure 8-the outfit you work for, B.C., Canada, or someone else?
> 2. Are they just banned or actually illegal?
> 3. Who polices figure 8 usage?
> ...


Banned by the Workers Compensation Board (OSHA like outfit), I have one on my belt, allowed to have it, not allowed to use it. Banned I heard because if you lose consciosness while coming down you can fall and be hurt/killed, let go of a tautline and you stop. If you are caught using one its summary execution, bullet to the head, no questions asked.


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## squisher (Oct 4, 2006)

I have a friend who's still serving time for using one. Canadian prison though so you get cable and beer.


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## SRT-Tech (Oct 4, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> I've used a rack before with kern mantle rope, for practicing crane evacuation. They're great. Wife dosen't know yet that I spent around $600 on gear and books at the ISA meeting. Maybe in a couple months I'll get a rack.
> 
> Maybe you can explain---why is it that some climbers use a Blakes followed up with a small pulley? I have yet to figure out how to get myself up a tree (or up higher from my initial tie-in) with a friction hitch. I use a set of ascenders (jumars), but problem is, then you need a second rope to move around. Or I shinny up a trunk with a flip line (a pain). Of course, we are taking hardwoods here; I free climb, using my spikes and flip line as needed to get up conifers. I'll try the secured foot lock with a set of prusik loops next on a doubled rope; that was the set up for the climbing competition at ISA.




the little pulley unweights the Blakes (when the "down rope" is footlocked and pulled down) and allows the Blakes to move up the rope, without you having to move it.



clearance said:


> Banned by the Workers Compensation Board (OSHA like outfit), I have one on my belt, allowed to have it, not allowed to use it. Banned I heard because if you lose consciosness while coming down you can fall and be hurt/killed, let go of a tautline and you stop. If you are caught using one its summary execution, bullet to the head, no questions asked.



yep. run a Figure 8 with no backup and you fall fast. If your lucky the tail of the rope will whip around and snag on something, stopping your impact but dont hold your breath. 

Racks are numero uno in my view. in the many experiments i have done with a suspended static kernmantle rope, a 6 bar (steel) rappel rack and a 200 lb dummyweight, attached to the rack, the weight simply slides down slowly (very slowly) or actually stops all together, with no hand on the rope to control braking. 

the same experiment with a figure 8 and the 200lb load left a 6" crater in the floor when the cement block crashed down.


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## moss (Oct 4, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> I have yet to figure out how to get myself up a tree (or up higher from my initial tie-in) with a friction hitch. I use a set of ascenders (jumars), but problem is, then you need a second rope to move around. Or I shinny up a trunk with a flip line (a pain). Of course, we are taking hardwoods here; I free climb, using my spikes and flip line as needed to get up conifers. I'll try the secured foot lock with a set of prusik loops next on a doubled rope; that was the set up for the climbing competition at ISA.



Doctor Dave, pick up a copy of Jepson's Tree Climber's Companion, he does a good job of explaining DdRT climbing with a friction hitch. If you don't like reading  get this video Tree Climbing Basics it does an excellent job of covering basic friction hitch climbing.

Better yet get both.

The pulley below the hitch could be set up for two different purposes. One is a slack tender for closed hitches (see Jepson's) the other is to advance the hitch (as SRT-Tech mentioned) when you're climbing on a Blake's Hitch. First learn to climb basic DdRT, it will all make sense and you'll be one happy tree climber.
-moss


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## squisher (Oct 4, 2006)

Jim is it still frowned upon by WCB even if you back it up with say a six coil prussic or is it just not allowed to be used altgether.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 4, 2006)

moss said:


> Doctor Dave, pick up a copy of Jepson's Tree Climber's Companion, he does a good job of explaining DdRT climbing with a friction hitch. If you don't like reading  get this video Tree Climbing Basics it does an excellent job of covering basic friction hitch climbing.
> 
> Better yet get both.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot! I'll check it out.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 4, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> the little pulley unweights the Blakes (when the "down rope" is footlocked and pulled down) and allows the Blakes to move up the rope, without you having to move it.
> 
> 
> I think I'm going to really enjoy my little pulley. Thanks!


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## hobby climber (Oct 4, 2006)

Coming Down...

With Blake's in place, I'll use an 8 below the friction knot and use it to rappel for best control. If for some reason I loose control of the 8, the Blake's is my back up. Just have to have a hand on the Blake's to keep pressure off of it while descending! I will also tie a stopper know at the end of my rope so it can't run through the fig-8 or friction knot for safety. HC


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 4, 2006)

hobby climber said:


> Coming Down...
> 
> With Blake's in place, I'll use an 8 below the friction knot and use it to rappel for best control. If for some reason I loose control of the 8, the Blake's is my back up. Just have to have a hand on the Blake's to keep pressure off of it while descending! I will also tie a stopper know at the end of my rope so it can't run through the fig-8 or friction knot for safety. HC



Do you do this with the rope looped over a good crotch, with a double bite of line through the 8, and a split tail for the Blakes?


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## beowulf343 (Oct 4, 2006)

woodchux said:


> I like to use a fig 8 or a munter, and back em up with a blakes. Adding an extra turn on the blakes hitch helps with the binding problem.


Okay, question about the extra turn on the blakes. I tie mine four turns and up through the bottom two turns. When you add an extra turn, do you go up through the bottom two turns or the bottom three turns?



dakota said:


> I leave enough of a stub after topping to act as a crotch so that rappelling is safe enough. Even if I have to stop along the way, my rope can be reset. No extra fig 8s or other junk needed. Simple is as simple does.


What do you do when you need to get down a forty foot stem and no branches are on it?


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## clearance (Oct 4, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> What do you do when you need to get down a forty foot stem and no branches are on it?


I cut a big V in the top, at least as deep as my 020s bar, then I put my rope into it, bowline to my D rings, tautline backed with a figure 8 and come down.


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## beowulf343 (Oct 4, 2006)

clearance said:


> I cut a big V in the top, at least as deep as my 020s bar, then I put my rope into it, bowline to my D rings, tautline backed with a figure 8 and come down.


Ha, ha, rhetorical question clearance. I just asked it because people seem to assume things-like every tree will have a branch that you can stub off. That's not always the case. Just trying to give out the worst case scenarios.

Btw, too bad figure 8 devices are banned-in the time it would take you to cut your notch, I'd be on the ground coiling up my rope, all thanks to my figure 8 device! (take it easy clearance-just picking on you)


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## hobby climber (Oct 4, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> Do you do this with the rope looped over a good crotch, with a double bite of line through the 8, and a split tail for the Blake's?







Dr.Dave,

Either a natural crotch or a false crotch. Single bite through the Fig-8! 

One end of rope attached to my saddle (Versatile), around a crotch or false crotch. A split tail from my saddle to the friction hitch attached to the bite,(Blake's). Then that single line below the Blake's through the fig-8 thats connected to a different attachment point on on my saddle.

Remember, I use the "Versatile" saddle that has lots of attachment points in the front! 

The Fig-8 is the primary descending device with the Blake's as a back up. If working, I set this up ,(as explained above) and work as I go down. Once to a good working position, I let go of the Fig-8 and I'am held solidly in place with the Blake's. 

No melting or high heat on my ropes with this set up...& safe also. And isn't that what its all about...Being Safe! 

Works for me just fine! HC


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## dakota (Oct 4, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Ha, ha, rhetorical question clearance. I just asked it because people seem to assume things-like every tree will have a branch that you can stub off. That's not always the case. Just trying to give out the worst case scenarios.




I wasn't assuming anything. Every tree is different - I was just adding my two cents. Other than chunking out spars on the way down - I've never had to descend that far w/o a crotch to support my rope. There's not too many of those monsters that Clearance climbs here in Milwaukee.


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## woodchux (Oct 4, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Okay, question about the extra turn on the blakes. I tie mine four turns and up through the bottom two turns. When you add an extra turn, do you go up through the bottom two turns or the bottom three turns?




I go through the bottom two, 3 over / 2 under.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 5, 2006)

hobby climber said:


> Dr.Dave,
> 
> Either a natural crotch or a false crotch. Single bite through the Fig-8!
> 
> ...




Single bite--of course. I was having a brain-fart (good thing I was sitting safely at my computer). Before I come down (and when ever I change my attachment in the tree), I put some weight on my rigging, with feet on a branch (and with an extra flip line or lanyard on something) just to feel and eyeball everythiing. Kind of a modification of the "hands off" test.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 25, 2006)

The PETZL I'd is my favorite descent tool. I have some other descenders that have a sweet spot for descending and panic stop aspects too.

Having the ability to 'let-go-lock-off' as well as a tool that will stop descent if the handle is pulled all of the way is very important. The I'd does both.

Using eights and variations on the idea puts hockles into climbing lines. 

A five or six bar rack is another good tool.

Go to Gary Storrick's site for ALL of the info:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml


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## lync (Oct 26, 2006)

Tom I have to agree the I'D rocks. Its also very versitile. Ill climb srt, take off the ascenders put on I"d and set 1 ascender w/ micro pully above it setting up a RADS system. Pull up my tail set up a split tail and double crotch
my way out and about the branches. One of the best tools out there.

Corey


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## RedlineIt (Oct 26, 2006)

Some one's gotta say it:

You don't rap out on a rigging rope.

You don't pull trees over with your climbing line.

Forum title is *Arborist 101* after all.



RedlineIt


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## (WLL) (Nov 19, 2006)

rope guide works great i dont rap out on a lowering line but if i did i would use a munter hitch on the pull line and try 2 stay awake:hmm3grin2orange:


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## lorax (Nov 20, 2006)

Why did you tie off the rope? Are you felling it with the rope you left in it? How will you get it out if you tie it off and come down on a single rope?


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## Tree Machine (Nov 21, 2006)

Ideally, you set your rigging rope toward the felling side, your climbing line the opposite side, rappel out, pull tree over. Climbing line is on top of the fallen tree.

I just got a Black Diamond ATC _Guide_. Anyone seen these yet. I just descended on one for the first time yesterday. You can get em at sporting goods stores where they sell Black Diamond climbing gear. I did 1:1 DRT and SRT and 2:1 DRT using the guide in place of a friction hitch. This piece is super-noob friendly, though for 11 mm only. Even the slightly larger diameter _Fly_ I had to stuff in there. 13 mm? Fogitaboutit.


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## woodchux (Nov 21, 2006)

I've got one of those black diamond atc-xp guides. Never used it yet though. Ordered a biner or something and got the atc-xp instead.


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## changetires (Nov 21, 2006)

When you try that out be sure to give some feedback on this little gizmo.

Ed


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## Tree Machine (Nov 22, 2006)

*ATC XP Guide details*

I'll share some more, but don't assume it as an endorsement. As said many, many times in this forum, a climber needs to climb on what he is comfortable with. Moving from a Blake's to a Distal is a big jump for a lot of guys. Moving to this device would be like moving to a different planet.






ATC stands for Air Traffic Controller, a term coined by Black Diamond severel decades ago. The classic ATC has been around so long that it rules the class of belay devices known as tube devices, so much that other tube devices are referred to as 'ATC-esque' depending on how similar they are to the original. It's a rock climbing thing, so if you haven't heard of these, just know this class of belay devices has been around since the advent of technical climbing, longer than I've been alive. They are, in my opinion, the simplest of all belay / rappel devices.

Storrick has a whole section of his climbing devices website dedicated to tube devices. Here is the section where he covers the the ATC, the ATC XP and the ATC XP Guide. He describes the nitty gritty on these, in far greater detail than I can. I've climbed on, and currently own all three, but I can only talk about them from a tree climber's standpoint. 

My ATC is buried in my caving kit, doesn't have use in the trees. The ATC XP is a better device for tree climbers, but still has limitations. The ATC XP _Guide_ is the same as the ATC XP, more streamlined and with a bell and a whistle added while still keeping the weight ultra, ultra light. 

I only climbed on the _Guide_ for the second time yesterday afternoon, this time on 11 mm Velocity. It's very similar to the ATC XP, which I've climbed on solid for a few months. The _Guide_ handles more like a friction hitch than anything else I've tried and can be used in place of a hitch if you so have the inclination. The real strength of this device is that it enables you to handle friction 1:1, all your friction comes from right there at your device, so it's a very predictable and reliable friction. It has the 'hands off, it'll hold you' thing that friction hitch guys like, but without the friction at the tie-in point that, without a friction saver, is a little different every time. It tends well and yesterday it got a delux tour of a big black locust, limb walking way out to rig the tips of every limb. I was very impressed with how smooth it allowed me feed with just a fingertip touch.

Doubled rope 2:1, doubled 1:1 or SRT, this device does all that right out of the box. The versatility aligns well with new school climbers, but how similarly it can step in to a 2:1 friction hitch position may interest a few trad guys to give it a whack. It would take a seasoned hitch climber some getting used to, but a noob would warm up to it almost immediately. It's exceedingly simple to use, secure, intuitive, really hard to mess up on, and quicker to apply than a friction hitch. It does not twist the rope in use. Requires a triple locking biner to attach it to your saddle.

Hope this helps some.


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## simpletreeman (Mar 26, 2007)

*atc*

this might be a dumb question but how do you soft/hardlock the atc device? Thanks


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## Tree Machine (Mar 27, 2007)

Depends. Which ATC?


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## Tree Machine (Mar 27, 2007)

And I have to say, that's not a dumb question. That is _THE_ question. It is the focal point around which all motions revolve while aloft using simple devices.


The fact that YOU asked it makes you the smartest guy out there, Simple Man.


This is the hard part. I have probably done 50 different variations of soft lock / hard lock, so, which one to share?


How about more on what soft lock does. Soft lock allows you to belay yourself with forefinger and thumb, or with the light pressure of your feet to control descent with total control.

Hard lock is just that. You are in hang mode.

Soft lock allows the rope to pass through the device, but with the slightest of tensioning on the belay hand, you stop. You should be able to pinch the rope between your thighs and stop yourself. This is soft lock. You pretty much live in soft lock while moving about, unless you are just using your hand as belay. That's all there is. Hand-belay, soft lock, hard lock.

How to? Your hand pressure is creating manual control. To engage a hands-free soft lock you would simply pass the rope through a small biner elsewhere on your saddle, after the rope passes throughh the device. Think about this. If the rope only needs enough extra friction to equal your forefinger and thumb, or thighs; that's not much. Just a clip through a biner to re-route it is often enough to enact soft lock. It DOES depend on the device. 

This sounds too easy to be true, doesn't it?


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## simpletreeman (Mar 27, 2007)

*atc locking*

I appreciate the quick response. I was browsing the Black Diamond website last night and the piece I had in mind was the atc-guide. I downloaded the instructional .pdf but it didn't show me everything I feel needs to be known about the device to use it while tree climbing. 


So how about the hardlock? 

Would it work to use that same biner you mentioned with the softlock except instead of using it to redirect the rope you create a loop using perhaps a butterfly knot to stick inside of it?


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## Fumbler (Mar 28, 2007)

One of the reason I went with an 8 over an ATC when I bought my equipment was because it wasn't obvious to me how to hard lock the ATC.

I'm considering an ATC Guide and am also curous how you hard lock it.


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## simpletreeman (Mar 28, 2007)

like Tree Machine mentioned a few posts up, there are probably half a million ways to hard or softlock the device. I would just like to familiarize myself with a few easy ones before i get myself too high in a tree. TM, if you can spare the time would you be willing to put up a picture illustrating some of your techniques for using the atc devices? And just to clarify I'm looking for srt and/or dbrt. You know, the nontraditional stuff.



Thanks


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## Tree Machine (Mar 29, 2007)

I would be more than happy. The ATC Guide is a very good piece, not designed for tree care / work positioning, but it's versatile enough that with a little improvisation, it could be your main device.

At around 25 bucks, easily affordable. All it does is insure a bight in the rope and adds just enough friction at the exit end. Through the bight runs a triple lock biner (I prefer a 50 Kn steel triple lock).

The key to a hardlock is to create a second bight after the rope exits the piece, not a knot. That just takes unnecessary extra time and bulk and whatever you do, you have to un-do. At 50 or a hundred times a day, you really want to streamline this or you'll spend a lot of time futzing with your knots.

As far as that second bight, it's actually simpler than that; OK, the rope comes down from the tie-in point passes through the device on the way down, around the triplelock to create the bight and back up through the device. The rope, in accordance with gravity, then goes back downward, creating a sort-of second bightYour hand then controls friction by pulling down. This creates a firm second bight. To create a hard lock you simply use a second biner to position the standing end of the rope to your saddle, keeping the second tight bight in place.

I use a small, aluminum non-locker for the replacement of your hand as this is your quick-on, quick-off. MOST of the time you'll control the rope with your hand. When you need to be fully hands-free you just replace your belay hand with a biner to secure the out-going rope in a fixed position. Hard lock. 

Please pardon the bad art.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 29, 2007)

As far as SRT or DbRT, the technique is identical. In SRT you're feeding ONE rope through the device, for DbRT, two.

In our familiar DdRT (2:1 traditional) the device can sub in for a friction hitch.
This means this device can go all three ways. That's why I like it, that and it's really fail-proof, doesn't wear out, is light, inexpensive, easy to master, safe for noobies, however it does NOT DO 13 mm rope. I'm using the FLY at the moment (~12 mm) and I really have to stuff it in there, but this is a very good start- it adds a little extra friction in use.

If you go to a real 11 mm, the whole thing will run smoother, with a little less friction.


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## Fumbler (Mar 29, 2007)

Thanks, that was real informative.

I guess I'll hold off on getting one, I climb on 1/2 Arborplex (which may actually be a tiny bit bigger than 13mm).

TreeMachine, how do you like the Fly compared to other climbing line?


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## Tree Machine (Mar 30, 2007)

The Fly? I'm not crazy about it, but at the same time I think it is an exceptional rope. I prefer firmer, more static ropes, but honestly, that is a personal preference. I don't like any bounce. Your preferences should come from your experience using them.

The Fly is OK in the ATC Guide. Like said earlier, you have to stuff it in, and that takes a little more effort and a wee bit more time, but the friction is different than a smaller diameter rope like Vector or Velocity or KMIII. The friction is greater and it is a mushier rope and flattens a bit as it bends around the biner, increasing friction. On descent this is OK, but if you climb up past your piece a few limbs and then have to pull slack through to regain your tension, it's a bit more work than the true 11 mm's.

I enjoy exploring the minor nuances and differences between ropes. Sometimes it takes a lot of trials of different ropes and pieces under different conditions to really understand what works better than another.


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## SRT-Tech (Mar 30, 2007)

1/2" Arborplex fits great in the ATC....after it (arborplex) is broken in on a few climbs and flattens slightly.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 1, 2007)

Which ATC? Are you talking about the one we're talking about?

The ATC Guide is rated to 10.5 mm, though 11 mm fits perfect. Fly not so perfect. Arborplex, I don't know how you could make that work in a Guide. I tried New England Hi Vee (13 mm) and no way.

Now the regular old ATC, maybe, but that lacks the minor features that make it a good device in the trees. The old ATC works so much like a friction saver ring that you might as well use the ring. Don't take this as a recommendation from me, though. Although a friction saver ring is the simplest of all descent devices, you can not let go of the rope without expecting to drop like a rock. Soft lock is finicky. Not bad if you're just coming down (abseil) but we move around, stop and go, here, there, everywhere and work positioning that requires precision adjustment.

The Guide has two friction modes, depending on which direction you run the rope through. It's nice to have this versatility. Here's an image off the directions that shows what is meant by this:


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## Tree Machine (Apr 1, 2007)

The HFM (high friction mode) just means the outgoing rope passes through a V-shaped channel with cleats (Is that the right word) or 'ribs' is maybe a better word. This little feature just makes controlling friction so sweet.

The frustrating part here is it takes so long to describe this stuff. Showing it in demo, I could cover just about everything you need to know in under a minute. The device is that straight-forward.

Another difference in handling the rope, in contrast to using a friction hitch, is that you handle the rope lower, down near your saddle whereas the friction hitch system you handle more 'up' where the hitch is.

I enjoy coming down using my feet to control the rope. The amount of pressure needed is so light that touching the rope between your toes will stop you. Like said earlier, you should be able to control descent with an index finger and thumb.

I like the control, say, when flying a stem-to-stem span, or pulling yourself across with a second rope and both hands are occupied, or say your hands are on the far stem, but the rest of your body is still out in space, the ATC Guide allows you to 'feed' rope through the device simply by manipulating the rope with your feet. 

If you do big limb to limb traverses (monster oaks and other really big trees, or going from one tree to another), you really need both hands on the ascendered rope you're pulling. The rope behind you needs to be on the outfeed, more or less equally to the infeed of the rope in front of you. If both hands are in front, you can squeeze the back rope between your thighs or lace it over a leg in some fashion that you can advance the descender while you advance the ascender. This way you travel across rather level, rather than doing a slow pendulim down, and than ascending straight up.

It's much easier to do than to write.


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