# Just cleaned out this oak 2 weeks ago. comments?



## l2edneck (Jun 30, 2009)

Whud yall think?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

l2edneck said:


> Whud yall think?



I think you need to look into lions tail info.


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

good job. climb or bucket and how long did it take. also what'd you charge?


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## l2edneck (Jun 30, 2009)

> What is the reasoning behind stripping the entire center of trees like that?


to let the wind blow thru in a storm,betters the chance of just losing limbs instead of the whole tree.



> I think you need to look into lions tail info.


mostly dead almost no green in the chips,its on its way out.and what the pics dont show is the eighty foot spread. But i appreciate it guys



> climb or bucket and how long did it take. also what'd you charge?



climbed,bout 4 hours i think we got only 750.00


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

l2edneck said:


> to let the wind blow thru in a storm,betters the chance of just losing limbs instead of the whole tree.
> 
> 
> mostly dead almost no green in the chips,its on its way out.and what the pics dont show is the eighty foot spread. But i appreciate it guys
> ...



climbed,bout 4 hours i think we got only 750.00[/QUOTE]

Look at the before pic take all dead out only dead light reduction on some of the overspreading limbs crown cleaning. Older trees don't take kindly to mass pruning and over thinning the two large limbs also could have stayed.


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I think you need to look into lions tail info.



dont listen to that gibberish. they dont know about our florida liveoaks. plus, what the customer wants is what the customer gets. tree looked sparse to begin with. honestly, 750 is about all you could hope for on a lift and thin of that size. some people would charge less and still make decent money. how much brush did you end up with, about 20 yards?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> It looks way over thinned!
> 
> What is the reasoning behind stripping the entire center of trees like that?



They need them out of the way:hmm3grin2orange: I try to leave the inner thinning last do crown clean and deadwood then leave as much green as possible in center. Unless it is thick then cut one leave one as to not produce lions tails!


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## l2edneck (Jun 30, 2009)

> two large limbs also could have stayed.



one had a giant cavity,other was a stub.



> how much brush did you end up with, about 20 yards?



i wouldn't say that much.like i said,most was deadwood.


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## l2edneck (Jun 30, 2009)

> I try to leave the inner thinning last do crown clean and deadwood



uh duh,


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

asthesun said:


> dont listen to that gibberish. they dont know about our florida liveoaks. plus, what the customer wants is what the customer gets. tree looked sparse to begin with. honestly, 750 is about all you could hope for on a lift and thin of that size. some people would charge less and still make decent money. how much brush did you end up with, about 20 yards?



Lol Quercus Virginiana it is a plant right?


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## l2edneck (Jun 30, 2009)

> it is a plant right?



im pretty sure it was a tree bro.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

l2edneck said:


> uh duh,



Then how did we end up lions tailed? You asked for opinions did you not?


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol Quercus Virginiana it is a plant right?



hot springs, thats in florida, right?


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

asthesun said:


> hot springs, thats in florida, right?



No it is on Mars Species health while site specific in terms of soil structure,water infiltration rate,Florida grown tree has no bearing on proper pruning guidelines.


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> No it is on Mars Species health while site specific in terms of soil structure,water infiltration rate,has no bearing on proper pruning guidelines.



you certainly speak like you are from mars. in the first pic, those limbs in the front hide the fact that the tree is sparse. he didnt over-thin it, it was thin to begin with. looks like he took 2 limbs and suckered and deadwooded it, which is what we do to liveoaks in florida


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## l2edneck (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Then how did we end up lions tailed? You asked for opinions did you not?



yes 

look close at the before and tell me how much was really in the middle?

im tellin you that most was dead. and that is the tree looks lion tailed due to size of spread.Plus i cleaned a ton of toe out of it.

believe it or not its raining so im just trolling,but what i pruned was just what it needed. I have pruned many diseased trees.Although it appears stripped most of the crap that was left needed to come off.

This tree reached its life span and needed a facelift before its inevitable demise.What i have done has more than likely prolonged the life of this very tree.had i left more disese infested crap on it its decline would have more than likely increased.

I felt good on giving more life that day,lord knows ive whacked a many healthier trees.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

asthesun said:


> you certainly speak like you are from mars. in the first pic, those limbs in the front hide the fact that the tree is sparse. he didnt over-thin it, it was thin to begin with. looks like he took 2 limbs and suckered and deadwooded it, which is what we do to liveoaks in florida



I could see it was over thinned before so in Florida if it is sparse the best thing is to wack the rest off?:monkey: I wonder myself if only the dead were taken and the canopy thinned if by some little glimmer of hope the center would not rebound? Of course after soil test and prescribed multch and or aeration were mitigated!


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I could see it was over thinned before so in Florida if it is sparse the best thing is to wack the rest off?:monkey: I wonder myself if only the dead were taken and the canopy thinned if by some little glimmer of hope the center would not rebound? Of course after soil test and prescribed multch and or aeration were mitigated!



he did very little, like he said. removed a rotten limb, a stub and deadwooded it. in any case, doing what is healthy for the tree might not look as pretty what the customer wants so when all else fails, just do what they ask and get paid for it. if their bad ideas about what a tree should look like kill their tree, maybe you'll get to come back and remove it (and get paid again). you have to find a balance between 3 things, doing what is healthy for the tree, doing what makes the tree look good and doing what the customer wants. sometimes its hard to do all three, in which case just do what the customer wants, otherwise they'll find someone else who will do what they want. i stand by his trim job since i trim liveoaks every day and have prolly seen more than you. neither of us was there though and the picture is a 2d view of a 3d object.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

I noticed the one in the next yard must have been infected as well


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## treeseer (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Species health while site specific in terms of soil structure,water infiltration rate,has no bearing on proper pruning guidelines.


ropen, species has a lot to do with what pruning is proper, but I agree it was gutted in the name of hurricane-proofing, which is a questionable concept in terms of physics and biology.

Attached is a live oak in largo that i worked on last saturday. note green sprouts on lefthand trunk; all new coming back after stripping last year. job security for treeguys who come back every year with the stripping = stormproofing bs, instead of getting out to the tips where light reduction would make a real difference in stability.

Another crew found a mushroom at the base and told the owner no problem; just call the town and they can get a permit for removal. :censored: turns out there was very little rot in the tree; like killing a patient because of melanoma. lotta arbo snake oil going around in FL. No offense 12Ed; I'll be in cwtr in 3 weeks and demossing that largo tree; maybe we can check out some trees then. opcorn:

Live oak's lifespan  is waaaaaay older than that tree is.

yes main thing is we are critiquing based on 2d maybe not totally fair.


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## Treetom (Jun 30, 2009)

after looks better than before.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 30, 2009)

The pruning doesnt look that extreme it looks like there may be something else going on with the root system causing the leaf production to be limited.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jun 30, 2009)

You git paid by the pound or what?!


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## Nailsbeats (Jun 30, 2009)

Looks like you achieved what you were going for and that's alright by me. Good work.


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## mckeetree (Jun 30, 2009)

l2edneck said:


> yes
> 
> look close at the before and tell me how much was really in the middle?
> 
> ...



You remind me of some of those doctors at the VA hospitals that say things like "Now then what I done right here was chop this feller's legs off where caint nuthin get wrong with them. That's what I done rght here. Git R done."


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

treeseer said:


> ropen, species has a lot to do with what pruning is proper, but I agree it was gutted in the name of hurricane-proofing, which is a questionable concept in terms of physics and biology.
> 
> Attached is a live oak in largo that i worked on last saturday. note green sprouts on lefthand trunk; all new coming back after stripping last year. job security for treeguys who come back every year with the stripping = stormproofing bs, instead of getting out to the tips where light reduction would make a real difference in stability.
> 
> ...


Re-read :monkey:
Yes species can change pruning but what I said was pruning guidelines do not change from Florida to Ar,not methods,severity etc. I have had some experience with live oak but very limited I have not seen lions tailing as a positive in the guidelines have you?

The statement was in response to the Question is it in Florida and really has no bearing on proper pruning accept in Arid climates where less off may become the norm. I may have not been plain in my answer but Crown cleaning is Crown cleaning and lions tailing is lions tailing whether it is in Florida or on Mars!


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Re-read :monkey:
> Yes species can change pruning but what I said was pruning guidelines do not change from Florida to Ar,not methods,severity etc. I have had some experience with live oak but very limited I have not seen lions tailing as a positive in the guidelines have you?
> 
> The statement was in response to the Question is it in Florida and really has no bearing on proper pruning accept in Arid climates where less off may become the norm. I may have not been plain in my answer but Crown cleaning is Crown cleaning and lions tailing is lions tailing whether it is in Florida or on Mars!



guidelines are just that, they're not rules or laws. the way that liveoaks grow is completely different than other types of trees, hence different pruning methods. the tree grew very sparse or had been liontailed before or is just sick in some way, causing it to grow the way it did. why wouldnt you cut suckers in the center? they'll never reach the canopy anyway and just detract from the look. man did spot-on work imo.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

asthesun said:


> guidelines are just that, they're not rules or laws. the way that liveoaks grow is completely different than other types of trees, hence different pruning methods. the tree grew very sparse or had been liontailed before or is just sick in some way, causing it to grow the way it did. why wouldnt you cut suckers in the center? they'll never reach the canopy anyway and just detract from the look. man did spot-on work imo.



I have seen improperly trimmed lions tailed trees recover by leaving suckers long enough to become limbs after a well manicured crown cleaning. We should believe you why?


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## StihlRockin' (Jun 30, 2009)

Not sure what the neg hype is about as it looks very clear to me. The whole inside was pretty much dead. The limb that was removed on the right side was obviously a stub and the other, like the original poster said, had a cavity. If you remove what should have removed, I'd think what you get is the after picture as it is seen.

The tree isn't a blank canvas that you create whatever you want. Often you have to work with what you got and this is what was done here.

Looks good. Good job!

*StihlRockin'*


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## mckeetree (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Re-read :monkey:
> Yes species can change pruning but what I said was pruning guidelines do not change from Florida to Ar,not methods,severity etc. I have had some experience with live oak but very limited I have not seen lions tailing as a positive in the guidelines have you?
> 
> The statement was in response to the Question is it in Florida and really has no bearing on proper pruning accept in Arid climates where less off may become the norm. I may have not been plain in my answer but Crown cleaning is Crown cleaning and lions tailing is lions tailing whether it is in Florida or on Mars!



Lions tailing is lions tailing. You know I hired this guy from Mississippi about ten years ago and before I could get him fired he about got me sued after he trimmed a tree as shown in the pic. Turned out he was a door to door snake oil peddler type of guy that could come up with a half believable answer to a layperson when asked any tree question. But when he got in a tree he could do one of two things, take it down or lions tail the fool out of it.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 30, 2009)

StihlRockin' said:


> Not sure what the neg hype is about as it looks very clear to me. The whole inside was pretty much dead. The limb that was removed on the right side was obviously a stub and the other, like the original poster said, had a cavity. If you remove what should have removed, I'd think what you get is the after picture as it is seen.
> 
> The tree isn't a blank canvas that you create whatever you want. Often you have to work with what you got and this is what was done here.
> 
> ...



+1 I have to agree like I said before to me it looks like the lions tail look was produced by an unhealthy tree not by the pruning work. If you look at the before picture there was not much growth from the stems to the tips.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Lions tailing is lions tailing. You know I hired this guy from Mississippi about ten years ago and before I could get him fired he about got me sued after he trimmed a tree as shown in the pic. Turned out he was a door to door snake oil peddler type of guy that could come up with a half believable answer to a layperson when asked any tree question. But when he got in a tree he could do one of two things, take it down or lions tail the fool out of it.



I agree it takes the combination of expertize, knowledge as well at the art of proper pruning one without the other is a half tree man imo. If only half will work I would opt for the knowledge and have him hire the other.


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## Tree Pig (Jun 30, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> You know I hired this guy from Mississippi



Well that was your first mistake


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## mckeetree (Jun 30, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Well that was your first mistake



Well he sure talked a good show and I gave him a chance.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 30, 2009)

Look I have seen worse I am not trying to belittle the op and don't wish to keep on about one over thinned oak. I can see where he did not have much to work with as others have posted. We were asked to evaluate this tree and what was done to it and I gave my opinion which I believe to be based off acquired knowledge and experience. I myself make bad cuts at times and am not perfect and if I post a pic of any work I would hope to learn if I was doing something wrong.


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## John464 (Jun 30, 2009)

kinda hard to tell whether its over-thinned or not. It may appear sparse because of the removal of dead and diseased limbs. It may have been a great job, minus the two lower limbs removed which could of been the homeowners request too.


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## John464 (Jun 30, 2009)

one more thing, there is some dead left up in the canopy. which could of been removed, but if it wasn't being paid for I would of left it too


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## asthesun (Jun 30, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I have seen improperly trimmed lions tailed trees recover by leaving suckers long enough to become limbs after a well manicured crown cleaning. We should believe you why?



we should believe _you_ why?


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## treeseer (Jun 30, 2009)

guidelines are just that, they're not rules or laws. 

*Yup the BMP's do allow for regional and species variation. Tellya what, 12--go back in a year and if there is no sprouting at your liontail cuts then they were right. Let the tree decide what is right!

the way that liveoaks grow is completely different than other types of trees, hence different pruning methods.

*O they are not that different really to say liontailing fits them. 

why wouldnt you cut suckers in the center? they'll never reach the canopy anyway 

*Branches do not have to reach the canopy to feed the tree, and this tree looks to be starving (as is the largo oak i posted a pic of) When canopies are thin is when they need interior growht all the more. 

*The prevalence of mistletoe also indicates lack of canopy, and the need for every green leaf possible. In such a condition, it may have been best to leave those 2 lower ones on and just clean them up..hat cavity was not severe, and a growing "stub" is just a short branch that has not been restored yet..What did you spray on the 'toe? 

and just detract from the look. 

*What "look" are you talking about, Michelangelo? The only organism capable of optimally designing a declining tree is the tree itself. So many tree guys want to build trees into vaulted cathedrals, with a clear view to the ceiling. Healthy elms used to do this--have they imprinted the "ideal" tree shape into our psyches? Live oaks do not--very different, as you pointed out...

As for owner preference, the largo client trusted the cutter who gutted her tree with the "stormproofing" BS; she gave no aesthetic or any directions except health mtc. Yes sprouts can become good branches, ropen--we gotta think in tree time, beyond the paycheck.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 1, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Yes sprouts can become good branches, ropen--we gotta think in tree time, beyond the paycheck.



I Do practice that thinking on all my trims but as I have said I fail sometimes by not accurately reading the tree. I just finished a tree I did not feel too proud of it was a very large lightning struck Quecus alba and probably wont make it. I only removed hazardous fully
dead limbs but the whole crown has chlorosis and does not look good. I told the customer I would probably end up back to remove it but we will wait and see. I also told him to limit the dozers that are clearing the land next to this huge tree and to place some mulch and water if we enter drought. I would like to aerate the compacted soil site then mulch myself but he is stretched out with the construction in the area tree is 46"dbh hate to see it go! I at least gave it a chance but feel more should have been done. I would really need to do a lot of pro bono in Ar to give care the way some of these trees need.


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## treeseer (Jul 1, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> he is stretched out with the construction


so the tree owner is building near the tree but cannot spend anything on it...that makes no sense whatsoever--the line of credit for the building is long so the money is there, but not the intelligence.

if it was hit by lightning maybe it's time for an ins claim.

Boy o boy this thread was hot and heavy...now dead? Sorry about that.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 1, 2009)

treeseer said:


> so the tree owner is building near the tree but cannot spend anything on it...that makes no sense whatsoever--the line of credit for the building is long so the money is there, but not the intelligence.
> 
> if it was hit by lightning maybe it's time for an ins claim.
> 
> Boy o boy this thread was hot and heavy...now dead? Sorry about that.



Not doing the construction on credit at least I don't think.


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## Marty B (Jul 1, 2009)

*Live Oaks*

Why do live Oaks keep their leaves? The branches are subject to burn with direct sun light. If the tree is in decline and the crown starts dying back you have to try to do something. The water sprouts are there for some good reasons. One, providing shade to it's limbs and two, provide carbs to the limb so it develops good limb taper. I get on my climbers about breaking/cutting water sprouts. Live Oaks are not an easy tree to clean up. It's good to have a groundie with a good eye to let you know if you start getting too carried away.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 2, 2009)

In reading the thread it appears that some don't understand why lion's tailing is bad for the tree. Trees add increment to branches or the main stem (conifers) primarily in the crown area. This is most evident in comparing open grown conifers with those growing in a closed canopy. In the open grown situation, where the foliage goes to the ground you have the same increment growth at the top and bottom of the tree, hence giving a tapered stem. 

In a closed canopy tree, the increment in the canopy is more than the bottom, so you end up with a tree with less taper. 

Lion's tailing gives the same effect on the branches. You end up with branches that have less taper over the length of the branch and hence more susceptible to breakage.

I can't really comment on this particular tree because I don't think the camera gives a proper perspective.

Someone made a comment that this was a diseased tree. What disease? I can't see any indicators, but probably don't know what to look for.

Finally, one of the reasons given to remove the branch to the left was a cavity. How large was the cavity? How much shell wood? What were the targets should the branch fail? I'm pretty sure I could see live foliage on it, so it was not a deadwooding exercise.


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## asthesun (Jul 2, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> In reading the thread it appears that some don't understand why lion's tailing is bad for the tree. Trees add increment to branches or the main stem (conifers) primarily in the crown area. This is most evident in comparing open grown conifers with those growing in a closed canopy. In the open grown situation, where the foliage goes to the ground you have the same increment growth at the top and bottom of the tree, hence giving a tapered stem.
> 
> In a closed canopy tree, the increment in the canopy is more than the bottom, so you end up with a tree with less taper.
> 
> ...



so how do you trim your canadian liveoaks...?


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## M.D. Vaden (Jul 2, 2009)

Have barely read replies, but it looks decent.

Not sure whether you took too much out or not. But I see what looks like a lot of dead twig. I know that light to moderate thinning of some oaks can make them look quite open sometimes.

Hard to tell from pics sometimes.


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 2, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> It looks way over thinned!
> 
> What is the reasoning behind stripping the entire center of trees like that?



thats good for thear:jawdrop: i am in st pete beach topping is the norm here tom trees


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## treeseer (Jul 3, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> thats good for thear:jawdrop: i am in st pete beach topping is the norm here tom trees


many untopped and unliontailed trees in pinellas county--but not enough i agree.

there are pecies with similar growth habit to live oak in bc as i recall; not virginiana maybe but lobata, ?

lots of other work to be done besides stripping sprouts:

BACKGROUND AND HISTORY
Client has owned property 3 years. 2 limbs have been removed entirely to gain extra clearance to palms and street. Landscape service has maintained edges of flowerbeds by trenching, and applying Blade herbicide monthly. A fiberoptic line was bored under the tree 2 years ago.
Last year a local tree service removed lower and interior growth in an effort to “stormproof” the tree. No cuts were made at the ends of the branches. Another tree service looked at a red mushroom on the tree and recommended removal.

ASSIGNMENT
On June 27 2009 the owner asked me to assess the tree’s condition and list management options. 

OBSERVATIONS
I excavated decayed wood around the infection. I removed >2” extra soil that had been added around the trunk, and clipped away some circling roots. The infection measured approximately 11 inches wide, 6 inches high and 2 inches deep before I encountered living or solid tree tissue. Live oak wood is known to be decay resistant. The tree has sent out 2-3’ sprouts where last year’s “stormproofing” (lion-tailing) cuts were made. The top branches of the tree are sparsely foliated; dead twigs are in the sunlight. Spanish moss is shading out lower foliage. Wound response where branches were removed is poor; very little callus (scar) tissue is visible. The tree is declining, but the decline does not appear irreversible.

MANAGEMENT OPTIONS
1. Remove no more green leaves until the top of the tree has more leaves and wounds have more callus growth. After that, train some of the lower sprouts to become branches.
2.	Orient sprinkler heads so the trunk is not splashed.
3.	Mulch flowerbeds, and maintain edges without cutting tree roots (contact herbicide?)
4.	Stop using Blade or any other broadleaf herbicide until dosage and frequency are verified tree-friendly.
5.	Remove excess moss to get sunlight to leaves.
6.	Late this summer, have an arborist inspect the ends of the limbs and remove dead branches, inspecting foliage for size, color and health, and inspecting limbs for canker and cracking.
7.	Inoculate rootzone with compost applied in 1’deep, 2” wide holes 2’ apart in the turf area.
8.	Mulch tree ring 4” deep with shredded hardwood, leaving the trunk clear.
9.	Monitor semiannually, documenting above conditions. 
11. Leave the tree alone.
12. Remove the tree.

This concludes my report. I can clarify any portions of it upon request.


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

treeseer said:


> many untopped and unliontailed trees in pinellas county--but not enough i agree.
> 
> there are pecies with similar growth habit to live oak in bc as i recall; not virginiana maybe but lobata, ?
> 
> ...


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

wen i am in st pete trimming or fishing you can find me here at lunch tom trees


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## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> wen i am in st pete trimming or fishing you can find me here at lunch tom trees



Well you sure have posted that several times must be a good burger or cute waitress lol


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## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2009)

treeseer said:


> many untopped and unliontailed trees in pinellas county--but not enough i agree.
> 
> there are pecies with similar growth habit to live oak in bc as i recall; not virginiana maybe but lobata, ?
> 
> ...



So was it 1 through 9 or 11 or 12 and what happened to 10?


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Well you sure have posted that several times must be a good burger or cute waitress lol



yup the waitress and the burgers are the best in town tom trees


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## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> yup the waitress and the burgers are the best in town tom trees



Lol red hair?


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol red hair?



1 red head 6 blonds tom trees


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## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> 1 red head 6 blonds tom trees



 to burger joints


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

this wear i am tom trees


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## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> this wear i am tom trees



I am a chicken of the sea lol sunami,shaaaks and stone fish,stingrays ole ropen feels like a cat around the ocean


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I am a chicken of the sea lol sunami,shaaaks and stone fish,stingrays ole ropen feels like a cat around the ocean



o man we go shark fishing my frend got a 3000 lbs w shark tom trees


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## ropensaddle (Jul 3, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> o man we go shark fishing my frend got a 3000 lbs w shark tom trees



Ole ropen might fish in the ocean but big boat.


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 3, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Ole ropen might fish in the ocean but big boat.



yes we fish a 55' ocean yacht at montauk tom trees


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 3, 2009)

> the tree grew very sparse or had been liontailed before or is just sick in some way, causing it to grow the way it did. why wouldnt you cut suckers in the center? they'll never reach the canopy anyway and just detract from the look.



Technically suckers are found in the basal and root areas only. All above that are (water) sprouts. 

Excess sprouting is a stress response in any tree, the indiscriminate removal of all sprouts will just perpetuate the stress because the tree will tend to put more on.

On top of that, much of what many people will call a sprout is inner canopy that will not grow long and succulent. This inner canopy will still remain active when the outer canopy becomes partially dormant on very hot days. If all the inner canopy and sprout branches are removed, there is little transpiration during extreme heat. 

I am all for the thinning of sprouts so that some will become branches over time. IMO it is part of crown restoration.

Stripping out all the inner foliage, just because that is what was done in the past, is not good practice. Live oak is not that different from others to justify hacking away.Generally speaking that is; just by looking at those tow pictures can I say that this is a hack job. I'm just saying that *stripping out all the sprouts* is.


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## RoyalTree (Jul 3, 2009)

*not so fast*



asthesun said:


> g*uidelines are just that, they're not rules or laws*. the way that liveoaks grow is completely different than other types of trees, hence different pruning methods. the tree grew very sparse or had been liontailed before or is just sick in some way, causing it to grow the way it did. why wouldnt you cut suckers in the center? they'll never reach the canopy anyway and just detract from the look. man did spot-on work imo.




Not so in some counties in Florida! You will get a paper asking for a mandatory 500 dollar donation in some parts. It is a clear liontailing and happens ALL the time in this area. Even if it is the wrong way to take care of a tree it would still qualify as a decent trim after you see what butchering everybody is doing in the name of storm prep. There is a severe lack of understanding of proper pruning techniques in the whole area. Proper taper is essential to trying to prepare a tree for a storm. Branches shaped like a dowel break off in very little wind. This topic has been studied in great depth at the University of Florida.


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## Menchhofer (Jul 3, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Technically suckers are found in the basal and root areas only. All above that are (water) sprouts.
> 
> Excess sprouting is a stress response in any tree, the indiscriminate removal of all sprouts will just perpetuate the stress because the tree will tend to put more on.
> 
> ...


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## StihlRockin' (Jul 4, 2009)

*John Paul Sanborn*, Thanks for your last post above. It is an informative post for me.

Good to know.

*StihlRockin'*


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## treeseer (Jul 4, 2009)

RoyalTree said:


> This topic has been studied in great depth at the University of Florida.


Yes some research indicates that reducing or thinning at the ends is more effective at stabilizing than raising and stripping interiors. In fact, raising and stripping can INCREASE risk! 

Maybe when some gutted tree fails, the owner will sue the arborist for malpractice! Those studies need to be translated into plainer talk and the word spread.

Hey 12Ed, come on out; a lot of people do that kind of work--you are not the scapegoat!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 4, 2009)

> Yes some research indicates that reducing or thinning at the ends is more effective at stabilizing than raising and stripping interiors. In fact, raising and stripping can INCREASE risk!



With a lionstail you maintain the same end mass for the levered end, while removing inner dampening mass (anyone not see the discussions on mass dampening?) 

The U.Fla. studies I've read tend to focus on upright stems and "pressure of height"; that is you have the lever extending, which puts more pressure from the wind, and a greater arc of movement. Add to that the loss of dampening mass down stem, you have more force on the member.

Now if we add in Mattheck's "shear bomb" of a laminated cylinder, we can see hoe this extra movement will cause failure strain at the point of bend. This is where the point of bend is an axis for the shifting of forces from compression to tension on opposing faces of the stem, then back again. This juxtaposition (_Apposition; a placing side by side or close together; the condition of being side by side or close together.) _ of compression and tension causes delamination of the rings reduction of breaking strength. (I've read that this may be where ring shakes come from)







Here is a diagram of Mattheck's principle at the basal flair, it holds true to limb movements in heavy winds too.


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## tree MDS (Jul 4, 2009)

On a simpler note: if you strip the trees out down south, when a hurricane does come through and break everything theres nothing left to cut back to.


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## Ted J (Jul 4, 2009)

we seem to be having a John Madden moment here: 






*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5_n1S3ilQk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosearch%3Fhl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26hs%3DqF%26q%3Djohn%2520madden%2520diagrams%2520a%2520play%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwv%23&feature=player_embedded*


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## arborist (Jul 4, 2009)

*lion's tailing is not an acceptable pruning technique*







Whud yall think?[/QUOTE]

lion's tailing is not an acceptable pruning technique.
this tree (for whatever the reasons where/are) has been improperly pruned.
this pruning method is called "lion's tailing" like pointed out and should never be preformed.
sorry,but a certified arborist will not prune tree's in this manner.
the tree's overall health will suffer and is now extremely susceptible to storm damage.
the homeowner lost.
the tree's health lost.
pruning in the manner will eventually cost you big time and you will lose as a result.
study the latest practices in arboriculture if you wish to continue tree work please.
continue your education in arboriculture and become a certified arborist.you will be extremely happy you did.
good luck.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 5, 2009)

Ted J said:


> we seem to be having a John Madden moment here:




Yeah, not the best I've seen, but what I could find on short notice. Maybe Kenny or one of the more artistic members can render a drawing. If I tried it would be worse.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 5, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Yeah, not the best I've seen, but what I could find on short notice. Maybe Kenny or one of the more artistic members can render a drawing. If I tried it would be worse.



Two left hands when it comes to drawing huh?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 5, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Two left hands when it comes to drawing huh?



And all thumbs, comes from too much fighting in my youth, I think. broke them a few times, tore some ligaments and tendons....


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## ropensaddle (Jul 5, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> And all thumbs, comes from too much fighting in my youth, I think. broke them a few times, tore some ligaments and tendons....



I had a few too many of those myself, sorta wished I had not been so hard headed.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 5, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I had a few too many of those myself, sorta wished I had not been so hard headed.



Same here, Luckily I was a Jarhead, so I am covered through the VA. A lot of it was service related, not all barfights 

Though my hard head served me well; I won more than one fight with a well placed headbutt, but I hit a lot of low mounted objects while shipboard that messed my neck up something fierce. There were a few times that I found myself on the deck and seeing stars.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 5, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Same here, Luckily I was a Jarhead, so I am covered through the VA. A lot of it was service related, not all barfights
> 
> Though my hard head served me well; I won more than one fight with a well placed headbutt, but I hit a lot of low mounted objects while shipboard that messed my neck up something fierce. There were a few times that I found myself on the deck and seeing stars.



Lol I sometimes won never was koed but lost my share too, nothing like a good azz whippin to change a perspective lol. I usually only lost when I was in the wrong because, the fight would still be going if I was right lol. I had tough buddies though, way tougher than I ever thought of being. Now I am happy to be a cupcake no interest in scraping unless it is over my grand babies or family.


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