# No Spikes on removals???



## rahtreelimbs (Jun 22, 2003)

I've spoke with several other climbers who do all removals without the use of spikes. I would think that this very tiring and hard. Is there anyone else who does removals without the use of spikes?


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## TREETX (Jun 22, 2003)

Almost every removal is spikeless for me.

Not many excurrent trees here. Big round crowns w/no need for spikes unless you just want something extra to stick in your calf or climbing line. 

I am not saying they aren't necessary but it is also important to think outside the spike.

The rare situation where a stem has to be blocked small, into a small place.

Overseas I have done a lot of pine and fir removals spikeless but I just topped them and then worked my way down on the stubs I left until there was just stick which I dropped.

If I worked up in the NE US, I would probably use them a whole lot more.


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## Stumper (Jun 23, 2003)

I worked without gaffs my entire career up until a year ago. Mostly it didn't matter BUT I'm hooked on my hooks for removals now. I look back and see how much harder some jobs were without them and can think of at least two jobs I walked away from that I would do without hesitation on gaffs. A lot depends on the trees and the area you live in-A lot of species are easier to move around in without spikes-as Treetx alluded to- other species are a royal pain to climb in and gaffs make them easy.


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## tjk (Jun 23, 2003)

I can definetly do removals faster and safer and more effciant with my spurs on.


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## Eagle1 (Jun 23, 2003)

*Spikes*

Spikes give you that extra leverage when chunking down.


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## TREETX (Jun 23, 2003)

My last time to check in on this biannual spike/no spikes debate here.

Not all trees are excurrent in form with a "stick". How are you going to spike an extremely decurrent live oak?

Excurrent = spikes


Decurrent = why use spikes?? It is like needing spikes for pruning.

There are places in the world where I would use them on almost every removal. Others where they would be pointless.

Guess I just don't like the attitude that all there is to a removal is chunking off blocks of spar. Just seems pretty specific to region and more a display of only having worked a few different regions/region types.

Have a bunch of tools in yer tool box and stay diverse.

Ya'll have fun.


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## Grigory (Jun 23, 2003)

At us in Russia spikes is not present. Seven years remove trees without spikes. We use convenient and simple system from two lanyards. My opinion, that on spikes in some cases, would be more convenient, is faster and easier. In Russia by removal of trees earn additionally electricians. They use such "spikes" they are suitable for trees only of some diameters.


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## Grigory (Jun 23, 2003)

I have question: whether Conveniently to work in spikes on inclined trees?


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## monkeypuzzle (Jun 23, 2003)

Here is one that I think spikes or not would be tough. Would you sit to make the cuts? Making a undercut would be tough.

These pecans can be tricky trees because of the form(decurrent).
Very difficult using a flip-line, it would be somewhere near your feet. 

I am not at all saying you couldn't remove this leader without spikes,but I would like to see how it can be done efficiently.

No nubs(limbs) to use for standing. Tie in high to central leader and maybe work it from the sides.

What about all the movement rigging larger pieces, lots of shakin going on.


I say get a crane


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 23, 2003)

i've grown so used to not using spikes and habitually the strategies therof; where spikes can get in the way! Especailly in a medium, naturally well scaffolded takedown, i have no use for'em.

But for extreme large diameter vertical takedowns i use them for efficiency. Also for block and catch on the host spar, i consider them a safety factor. Or trying to race a $125/hr. crane from point to point; seeing as it is more logical to be held by a 6k device, rather than a 600k one......

Without i get around like pruning, only i can stub a branch off at any height to stand on, or even conventional knotch in spar for same. Course it is really neat if you schedule that so on the next move use that notch, alternating angles naturely to keep feet in notch out of the way, also the ground guys have more time to move stuff, to rule out 'ricochet' forces when bombing out to 2 diffrent KillZones......

Like my Bashlins with the comfy Velcrov Super Wraps. Those fancy uppers sure last a lot longer when you don't use'em!

:alien:


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## ramanujan (Jun 23, 2003)

In this area I get laughed at when I don't use spurs for removals, simply because they are very necessary for most of the trees here. I'd estimate 70% of the work I do is on excurrent trees.

But when I am removing a spreading decurrent tree I feel handicapped with spurs on, I can't scamper along the limbs

For those that have mentioned they rarely/never use spurs, how does one chunk down a bare spar with no TIP above? Slings for your feet?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 24, 2003)

I will use gaffs only when needed, Long spars with no footholds left. I can move around the canopy better without, this mostly because I wear them so seldom.

Like a polesaw, bucket or chainsaw, one more tool to be used when you need to pull it out of the bag.

For that matter, Ive topped out a number of trees with just a handsaw, saved the chainsaw climbing for the spar.


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## Burnham (Jun 24, 2003)

Lumberjacklyn, replacement ring/stap sets are available. Terra-Tech, at terratech.net, or 800-321-1037, has Klein split-ring ankle straps at $27.95/pair. Cat. #SPE3206. I'm sure they can be had from other sources. These will mount on Buckingham spurs as well, if you want to upgrade from the single straight strap on those. My personal favorite is the Bashlin aluminum spur with the cast aluminum/foam leg pads. Comfortable for hours and a little lighter to boot.


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## treeman82 (Jun 24, 2003)

What kind of pads are you using? I used to have that problem with my gaffs when I was using the stock upper pads. Once I switched to the velcro pads with the steel insert the problem went away.


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## dbeck (Jun 24, 2003)

it is my feeling that use of climbers during removal is by far the safest thing you can do. When stretched out on a limb over a roof that needs to be false crotched down to the roof on the same limb you are on w/o footholds, what keeps you fromslipping and smashing your jewels? Use the safest gear you can, don't do removals w/o climbers to be macho or anything like that, that's silly. (i'm not saying everyone is trying to be macho, either) The best climber I've ever met (arbormaster champ, instructor and three time isa competitor) uses spikes on every removal. By example of such a renown climber, I think it makes sense.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2003)

Wow, every removal? Even a notch and drop?
What if the truck is wayyyy over there, and the tree bring removed is a smallish honeylocust with a a lot of nice scafold branches, one that could easily be climbed by a 10 year old child? Anyway, what if your spikes are back in the truck, and it's a long walk, uphill, and it's 95 degrees out?
How about if it's a simple climb and you nedd to trim two other trees, one just before, and one just after this removal?
What if you are just really good at footlocking, a very safe way to enter a tree, and you just need to scoot up there and knock out the top?
What if that same tree is a hard leaner or has loose bark, and you just need to knock out the top?
The point is this, to say you should wear spikes for every removal is silly. If it's easier, faster, safer, or any combination of these, why not climb without them?


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## NeTree (Jun 24, 2003)

I only use gaffs when necessary...(like when I'm down to the spar). They hurt my feet.


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## dbeck (Jun 25, 2003)

mike, are you suggesting that is some piece of equipment that would make the job safer is back in the truck, up that hill on the 95 degree day you would not go back and get it? you would take that risk?
Your sarcasm was sensed in your post. Obviously noone is going to spike a notch and drop removal.
Maybe I should outline what I consider a removal. More than 1/2 day of work involving roping over taget areas (houses, garages,fences, etc). a notch and drop is just that.
Footlocking into a tree is something I commonly perform before removing it. Often times the srt technique is faster than spking the tree. If there is extensive movement to be done after that I usually request spikes.
maybe I'm biased for spike, but I feel my reasons are just and so do all the folks I work with. I also am a beleiver that if it works effectively for you, then fine. Just ensure your safety and the safety of your coworkers.


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## TREETX (Jun 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *The point is this, to say you should wear spikes for every removal is silly. If it's easier, faster, safer, or any combination of these, why not climb without them? *



Well said by the high priest from the church of the painful truth 


It is also silly to say that removing a tree is not a removal and that it is only a removal when you are roping down LARGE pieces of a hazardous tree that is hanging over St. Mary's School for the Limbless Orphans and a herd of cute fuzzy puppy dogs


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 27, 2003)

And you are the most reverand brother of the benovolent order of ironc wit.

I say do it hwo your fastestest and mostest comfortable.

I think I could see Sean taking the top out of a tree w/o spikes and having them sent up later. Everyone I've talked to has said he blows their mind. "How the 'ell you get over there!"


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## Highclimber OR (Apr 3, 2007)

I saw one guy take down a 100-foot Doug-fir hookless. That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have seen in recent memory. Don't get me wrong, I won't use hooks on a non removal if it can be avoided, but I was truly worried for this guy's safety and I am a 15 year vet that has been in many a tight situation. I am sorry. I DO NOT see a point to not using your hooks on a removal, unless you are trying to string out the job and "sting" the customer in my opinion. I feel like hooks are part of what makes you a climber, not just my rope and ascenders, on removals anyway. I can still limb walk with my hooks and will always prefer them on a removal. Remember, it is also about saving energy and getting the job done safely and effectively as possible, right? The size of the tree does matter, and I will conclude by saying "Do what you are most comfortable with, a nervous or uncomfortable climber is an at-risk climber".


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## treevet (Apr 3, 2007)

Grigory said:


> I have question: whether Conveniently to work in spikes on inclined trees?


Yes grigory it is more convenient to work on inclined than non inclined trees as long as you are on the top of the incline. In order to put the spike in the tree correctly you need to lean back away from tree and jab in like stabbing a knife in the wood. You don t need to lean back when on an inclined tree.


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## clearance (Apr 3, 2007)

Highclimber OR said:


> I saw one guy take down a 100-foot Doug-fir hookless. That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have seen in recent memory. Don't get me wrong, I won't use hooks on a non removal if it can be avoided, but I was truly worried for this guy's safety and I am a 15 year vet that has been in many a tight situation. I am sorry. I DO NOT see a point to not using your hooks on a removal, unless you are trying to string out the job and "sting" the customer in my opinion. I feel like hooks are part of what makes you a climber, not just my rope and ascenders, on removals anyway. I can still limb walk with my hooks and will always prefer them on a removal. Remember, it is also about saving energy and getting the job done safely and effectively as possible, right? The size of the tree does matter, and I will conclude by saying "Do what you are most comfortable with, a nervous or uncomfortable climber is an at-risk climber".



"Safely and effectively getting the job done, and saving energy"-You got 'er Pontiac, I climb with them all the time.


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## Soul Assassin (Apr 3, 2007)

I use spikes on removals, usually to get up into the canopy, or help me rest while piecing down a butt log. But after I'm safely tied in and set with my secondary safety lanyard, they seem...to me ...cumbersome. 

That's when I take em off, and lower them. After that sometimes I use my Pantin for stability and if I need to go higher.

I've found the Ghecko's to be a big improvement on prior climbers. My 2 cents.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 4, 2007)

My last post on this thread was 06-24-2003, 03:04 PM.

I still will start some large removals w/o spikes on. Foot lock up to the first cut if you can crash stuff down, or the first rig point.

Often I will work my way up the the main rig point and get the ground crew started and a nice work area cleared out to swing big limbs.

If you treat the first stage of the removal like a trim with big wood, why use the gaffs? 

I'ld rather not have the 2# my foot. They say that work quadruples on the foot or leg compared to equal weight on the waist.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 4, 2007)

Il always start off spikeless on a removal especially if there is rigging involved. I like to be able to footlock in and move around the tree fluently with out worrying about my spikes.

That is unless its a simple single leader conifer that can be skinned up to the top in one ascent.

I dont find putting my spikes on at the top of the tree a problem any more.


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## Tim Krause (Apr 4, 2007)

*gaffs*

i wouldn't think of doing a stump prune without gaffs. i think it would be a waste of time. have you ever lowered a limb and have the ground man get it hung up on a stub? one or two trips down the stick to get the limb off the stub will make you sorry. how about when you get into bigger wood with a 372 on your belt? are you going to set up a foot strap? even rip the arbormaster dude wears gaffs on removals. i just don't understand.what are you trying to prove? gaffs are an essential tool of the tree biz. learn to love them.


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## clearance (Apr 5, 2007)

Tim Krause said:


> i wouldn't think of doing a stump prune without gaffs. i think it would be a waste of time. have you ever lowered a limb and have the ground man get it hung up on a stub? one or two trips down the stick to get the limb off the stub will make you sorry. how about when you get into bigger wood with a 372 on your belt? are you going to set up a foot strap? even rip the arbormaster dude wears gaffs on removals. i just don't understand.what are you trying to prove? gaffs are an essential tool of the tree biz. learn to love them.



Tim, I often wonder myself. I have never climbed without spurs, couldn't imagine humping up a rope but doing removals without spurs? Next up is going to be someone saying they could put a big fir on the ground without spurs faster than me. 95% of the work I have done is removals, I strip and chunk pretty fast but lets hear it.


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## SRT-Tech (Apr 5, 2007)

NeTree said:


> I only use gaffs when necessary...(like when I'm down to the spar). They hurt my feet.



sounds like your workboot soles are too soft or flexible. I had the same problem until i switched to a unbendable (90% rigid) mountaineering sole. Now i can stand on my spikes all day long and not even notice their on my feet.


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## beowulf343 (Apr 5, 2007)

Spikes all the time for me too. Know how to climb without them but more comfortable with them. I like knowing my feet are not going to slip off the tree if i'm 70 feet up and monkying with my lanyard.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 5, 2007)

Tim Krause said:


> have you ever lowered a limb and have the ground man get it hung up on a stub?



The GRCS is great for that, they can crank it up so it will usually come out.

I never said I allways do the entire tree w/o gaffs on, I just wait till I get to where I will be spending more effort. 

I can see if you work in gaffs al the time, you would want to have them on, but I'm not in them more then I am in them, and do lot of swinging and foot locking.


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## rahtreelimbs (Apr 5, 2007)

Interesting to see this thread pop up with some more good input after 4 years. IMO...........do what works best for you. I have done it both ways.............sometimes hooks were needed.............other times they weren't.


No right or wrong way here!!!


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## Mitchell (Apr 10, 2007)

*stiff soles*

quate by SRT "sounds like your workboot soles are too soft or flexible. I had the same problem until i switched to a unbendable (90% rigid) mountaineering sole. Now i can stand on my spikes all day long and not even notice their on my feet"
What brand preference do you have SRT. Do stiff boots limit mobility without spurs? 

Sounds like my boots are made for walking not climbing... I have taken to cutting limbs 4 inches out from stem when i go up multiple trees in a day. That way I can stand on em to ease my aching feet. So ironically i actually could do [and have done] some large excurrent trees without spikes even though I'm wearing them. I don't mind limb walking with em but i have not spent to much time without them as I have done mostly removals. 

I have thought i would like to try a type of spur i could flip out or snap out of boots when needed and fold back when not. Any one ever heard of anything like that. I have toyed with the logistics in my head some but im to busy and no cobbler. 
Scott


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## clearance (Apr 10, 2007)

Mitchell, right in your town, Viberg Boot, the best. I have two pairs of lineman boots for climbing, one pair is triple soled. I have a pair of caulks too. The lineman boots are over $400 but they are the cats meow, the best boots I have ever had by a long shot.


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## DDM (Apr 10, 2007)

Ive never heard of viberg where do you get them?


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## SRT-Tech (Apr 10, 2007)

yo mitchell, my moutaineering boots are old old old Rachille (spelling?) mountaineering boots from about 30 years back. I had them resoled and a ful length oak footbed inserted into the sole. Off spur mobility is excellent, i love non bendy boots. I can run, hike, crag climb or ice climb in them, as well as spur climb.


But i will agree with Clearance, the Vibergs are top of the line. You get what ytou pay for. 

for what it cost me to build the rachiles to my specs, i could have bought a pair of Viberg 105T's, to my specs.

oh and Lucky Lager is the best beer ever.


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## clearance (Apr 10, 2007)

I buy them at good boot places here in B.C.. They have a website, don't know the exact website name, they are Viberg, in Victoria B.C. I got my caulks sent to me at a saw shop 1000 miles away. My feet are a little wide, they fit my kind of feet real good, just put them on and they were fine, climbed with them then and bucked a coupled of downhill logs today.


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## Mitchell (Apr 10, 2007)

*Viberg*

glad to hear the endorsment, i was planning on buying some anyways as they have been the best boots I have ever owned when i worked in the bush. i thought they might be to stiff for spurless work so i tried a boot that i figured did both...


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## Mitchell (Apr 10, 2007)

*Viberg*

DDM "Ive never heard of viberg where do you get them?" 

A few years back I was talkign to the owner and he mentioned they were shipping boots to oregon for inmate work gangs to wear! I imagine they would no tbe adverse to seding them south if you wanted a pair. they are very highly regarded by loggers here. 
scott


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## clearance (Apr 10, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> glad to hear the endorsment, i was planning on buying some anyways as they have been the best boots I have ever owned when i worked in the bush. i thought they might be to stiff for spurless work so i tried a boot that i figured did both...


Spurless to me means cutting from a bucket, never done it, probably never will, I think they would be way to stiff for it, from the pictures I have seen, it takes a pretty girlie pair of boots to grab the rope.


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## Streyken (Apr 10, 2007)

http://www.workboot.com/75b.htm

They are great climbing and work boots, last a very long time if looked after. You can stand in spurs all day with no problem. As I only do a little spurless, and use a pantin at that, I can't say how they are for all types of climbing.


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## SRT-Tech (Apr 10, 2007)

^ hey you back? check you email!


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## Streyken (Apr 10, 2007)

Think you're right Clearance, they do work well with a pantin, and a pantout for that matter.


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## clearance (Apr 10, 2007)

Streyken said:


> http://www.workboot.com/75b.htm
> 
> They are great climbing and work boots, last a very long time if looked after. You can stand in spurs all day with no problem. As I only do a little spurless, and use a pantin at that, I can't say how they are for all types of climbing.



Thems the ones I got, pantin? I aint even breathing hard.


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## Streyken (Apr 10, 2007)

clearance said:


> Thems the ones I got, pantin? I aint even breathing hard.


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## trimwizard (Apr 15, 2007)

My crew all climbs w/o spikes as per request/demand of utility co. we are trimming for. they have had alot of trouble with other companies doing trims w/spikes on and don't even want them on the jobsite. 
I would prefer to have a set on hand for certain removal situations and am going to try and negotiate a bit.
We haven't run into anything we couldn't handle w/o using spikes so far, but sometimes I feel the job could be done safer wearing them, and keeping the guys safe is most important to me.


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## Grace Tree (Apr 15, 2007)

trimwizard said:


> My crew all climbs w/o spikes as per request/demand of utility co. we are trimming for. they have had alot of trouble with other companies doing trims w/spikes on and don't even want them on the jobsite.
> I would prefer to have a set on hand for certain removal situations and am going to try and negotiate a bit.
> We haven't run into anything we couldn't handle w/o using spikes so far, but sometimes I feel the job could be done safer wearing them, and keeping the guys safe is most important to me.



I think a good injured climber rescue program would require a set of gaffs at the job site. Whether they're used for work or part of your rescue kit, they should be close at hand and the crew needs at least some basic training on climbing with hooks.
Phil


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## trimwizard (Apr 15, 2007)

A good point that had crossed my mind earlier, but had forgotten Phil. Thanks for the input.


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## Justice (Apr 18, 2007)

*boots and spikes*

Just my 2 cents.

Trimming I never use spikes unless NO other way to get into position and that is almost never. Spiking does do damage to trees. It is against ISA and CTE standards as well. 
As far as removals I use spikes, and had the same problem with sore feet until I bought a pair of "Hoffman's". Pole climbers to be exact. After break in they are flexable enough to trim spikless, and VERY comfortable, like running shoes. I also have a pair of calked boots that I remove the two calks against the heel to fit my spikes on. With the calks I NEVER slip. They are great with or without spikes. If you are in your boots every day they are worth every penny, and only about $250.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 18, 2007)

http://www.hoffmanboots.com/

Looks like they carry the Wesco boot, first thought they were the Mfg.


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## Justice (Apr 18, 2007)

Yes, they carry the Wesco boot, but I have always bought the "pole climbers". There are a couple "reviews" of the products on the Hoffman site, and even there they say the Wesco boots don't live up to their reputation. I really can't comment on them myself, but the "pole climbers" are amazing IMO.


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## Mitchell (Jul 4, 2007)

*Viberg linemans boot*



clearance said:


> Mitchell, right in your town, Viberg Boot, the best. I have two pairs of lineman boots for climbing, one pair is triple soled. I have a pair of caulks too. The lineman boots are over $400 but they are the cats meow, the best boots I have ever had by a long shot.




I went out and bought the Viberg linemans boot just under 500 after taxes and a 10% discount! Ouch. I Been using them for a couple weeks and they have been worth the price. They are a bit heavy relative to others I know that use the bailey's boots. I dead wooded a meduim sized redwood [130'] and found they are fine for spursless climbing as well. I do not think anyone would be unhappy with them. My past experience with using their corks and forestry boots has been nothing but very positive also.
http://www.workboot.com/75xb.htm


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