# Quick palm trims.....



## l2edneck (Oct 18, 2006)

First is 1:40secs of 2 of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGRBtElO6NI


Second a lil longer @ 3:57

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1MugaSXcM


And heres the stills from after done....

http://users.igl.net/smalljobs/small/Queensafter1Resized.jpg

http://users.igl.net/smalljobs/small/Queensafter2resized.jpg


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## Ekka (Oct 18, 2006)

Bit windy hey?

What did the ole lady want, a card?

Is that ya dad groundying for ya? 

Hey, That's what I call an over prune, I seldom do that anymore, it's leaving few fronds and cut too much of the butt/head off. Maybe leaving another "ring" of fronds on would have looked fuller/better and no need to shave the head.

Remember this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=36962

And http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/pruning/ on the LH side click on PALMS and there's some pics etc.



Good on you for not spiking them.


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## l2edneck (Oct 18, 2006)

> What did the ole lady want, a card?



Yup,a handful(shes the homeowner)



> Is that ya dad groundying for ya?



Nope my daddys 81.my groundy only 50. (haha)



> Hey, That's what I call an over prune, I seldom do that anymore, it's leaving few fronds and cut too much of the butt/head off. Maybe leaving another "ring" of fronds on would have looked fuller/better and no need to shave the head.



Sorry guys but thats the way 99% of ppl like em.If i argued(or tried to educate them) id be outta buisness.Also been trimming some of the same palms for years and yet to see any decline due to the way i trim em.Lots of decline from spiking though.

"High & tight" The pics dont do the job justice.I dont "skin" em.Just trim em up so they dont fall down in three months.In 3 months those fronds i leave will be hanging at 9-3(hands on a clock).And it is rare to have ANYBODY trim em every 3-4 months.

Got some you'll really appreciate in the next comin set.

Thx again


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## Ekka (Oct 19, 2006)

I used to get heaps of customers want them done like that when I was on the Gold Coast ... I must say that they didn't decline either ....

... but they're those cocos palms, tough as nails.

I used to have a chain in the end of the ladder so it sat on the palm sturdier ... you can also buy a gadget that bolts on to the feet of the ladder that levels it no matter where you are including steps! Pretty handy.

I have found that regular cleaning shortens the cycle of fruiting and they require cleaning more often.

The reason is lets say from the time the tip of a seed spathe emerges in the crown to the time it opens, flowers, berries etc is say 9 months.

Well you cut them all off, emerging ones and all. Immediately the palm starts making new ones. If you have fussy customers (also educated ones) they'll call you in to remove the seed spathes (torpedos), but that'll happen way more frequently at around 3 months. You'll have to take way less fronds to. I just keep telling them not to let them go to berries.

so the natural fruiting cycle is broken and the tree is continually pushing up new pods, they get cut off, new pods, cut off and so on every 3 to 4 months ... that was the Gold Coast! drive you nuts.

Bit different here in Brisbane. A lot more other vegetation so the palms aren't as important.

How about ants? Get many when you pull them old butts off?


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## vharrison2 (Oct 19, 2006)

l2edneck said:


> Lots of decline from spiking though.



Do you have any documentation on the palms declining as a result of spiking? I would agree with Ekka, those palms were over pruned. We strive to leave the palm at a 9-3, 10-2 at the most. Never 11-1, that is not healthy for the tree.


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## l2edneck (Oct 19, 2006)

Nope no documentation just a bunch o trees with holes in em that look like sh*t.I wonder why that is?Couldnt find a thing that says spikin em is bad.

I've been in a few with bleedin holes from the last time they were trimmed.
IMO oaks have a better chance of survival from bein hooked over and over again than palms.

But hey preach what you want.Lord knows im just dumbin down the biz.

I been tryin to contain myself and learn,but more and more i am bein told that my ways aren't rite.Been in this biz since i was 13.31 now go figure.


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## vharrison2 (Oct 19, 2006)

I have never seen any evidence that spiking palms hurts them.


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## l2edneck (Oct 19, 2006)

> How about ants? Get many when you pull them old butts off?




Last year when i did them they were loaded,and i mean loaded.This year not so bad.Also they are rite on the bank of a fresh water lake.




> Maybe leaving another "ring" of fronds on would have looked fuller/better



JMO but i think they look better trimmed tight than the "natural look"

I also dont trim the so tight that i "shave" the head as i just try my best to "round" it out (I.E tips not entire boots or petioles as i believe they are called)This in turn leaves less nooks and crannies for squirrels and rats to hide/live in and shelter them from the rain.Once again JMO.I try to suit the needs of all things considered,NOT just health and aestics of the tree.

As for spiking:

As Alex Shigo points out in 100 Tree Myths, “… when
palms are wounded, chemical changes in cells about the
wound do set boundaries that resist spread of infection.”

It goes on to say in that article:

Palms, being monocots, have a number of characteristics
that separate them from other trees. First, palms have their
vascular tissue (phloem and xylem) arranged in discrete
bundles throughout the trunk. Other trees, whether they
are conifers or broadleaf deciduous, have their vascular
tissue arranged as rings beginning just beneath the bark.
In addition, palms do not have any secondary growth.
They do not continue to significantly expand trunk diameter
as they age. They contain no successive layers (growth
increments, or rings) as found in dicots. Once the vascular
bundles are constructed and the other supporting tissue is
formed and expanded, that is it. The tree is not going to
get any larger in diameter at that point on the trunk.

So that would suggest that spiking them would not make them decline,but only make them ugly(coBuSgh!!) since the do not heal over as other trees would.So once again i have proved myself wrong.After exstensive searching that is the only document besides some A/S threads on results of spiking palms.That concerns me as it is not needed on most of the palms but seems to be common practice.The only time i would spike a palm is if i could not get it from my ladder.Then i would not spike from the ground,rather use ladder and climb off at a point above so not to make it look so darn ugly.Once again i frown upon this and will turn down palms that are much higher than say 40ft to the bottom of the head.Also i have been in some 6 story washies that had to be spiked year after year and at the top with almost no where left to spike was pretty hairy.

So once again take the "documentation" and ill stick to my know-how (and what i have experienced)And we will all continue to grow.

-Nick

edit:Article i referenced above is here:
http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/arbNews/pdfs/Feb05-feature.pdf#search='damage%20to%20palms%20from%20spiking'


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## vharrison2 (Oct 19, 2006)

Hey, thanks for the post! Good info from Dr. Shigo.


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## Ekka (Oct 19, 2006)

I used to think that palms couldn't compartmentalize as well as a tree ... I was wrong.

The reason for this is that when a tree is injured wall 1 which is the vascular system is shut down around the wound so no up/down movement. Palms the same.

The 2nd wall of defense for a tree is the heartwood. That's a lot harder and contains altered wood with phenolic compounds but palms have no heartwood ... it's al like sapwood and living and loaded with the real deal active resupplied sugars etc .... now that is a major advantage.

3rd wall is the rays in trees. They help contain the radial spread aand can be resupplied ... but palms dont have rays they just have more sapwood ... better again.

4th wall in a tree is new cambium growth/callus which is the strongest anti fungal protection ... now palms dont have this at all, the outside dia doesn't get bigger so this is the only advantage trees have over palms. But IMO the other 3 walls are far superior.

Also palms alter their sap real quick, the PH can change dramatically to highly acidic ... that's what corrodes your saws.

I've disected old spike wounds in palms, very well contained wounds.

The only argument I see is that continual spiking is ugly and I suppose if you did enough of them .... like thousands of them the palm could become structurally weaker as it's not putting more wood over them.

Certainly the "look" that many clients are accustomed to is the one you did, I know that from personal experience, and everyone in the area wants it that way.

Have you ever had this happen? when you cut away the older larger stronger fronds the new ones are exposed to the wind more. Many do break and hang there looking terrible, clients call you a week or two later asking you to return and fix it up as you didn't do your job correctly! Those fronds weren't nicked by the saw they just broke in the wind. 

I call this a haunting and is another reason I dont like taking so many coz if you dont return and go up there to get it they'll dump you, and you cant charge them for it. So palm cleaning can be a haunting experience.


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## l2edneck (Oct 19, 2006)

> Have you ever had this happen? when you cut away the older larger stronger fronds the new ones are exposed to the wind more. Many do break and hang there looking terrible, clients call you a week or two later asking you to return and fix it up as you didn't do your job correctly! Those fronds weren't nicked by the saw they just broke in the wind




not to my knowledge(god hope i dont curse myself)all the hangars ive ever had have been nicked.

I just got back from lookin at a dead washie.No apparent trauma looks like was trimmed within 2 months and now is dead.(top has very little green left in the heart fronds)any idea what to look for when i drop it?

Im always eager to learn more.Especially when it comes to palms

and thanx for challenging my theories(sorry if i came off wrong):hmm3grin2orange:


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## Ekka (Oct 19, 2006)

I have extensive experience with lightening struck palms.

Here's what you look for.

# dead fronds or burned (not black but singed). If the palms are in a group or pair etc look at the fronds of nearby ones and you'll see a burn pattern with the central palm that took the current to ground being the in the middle.

# the head may droop

# go jelly like, mushy

# the palm will rot from the top down

# It will stink bad, amonia style

If you are climbing it be very careful, feel for the jelly part and go no higher, whack it as best you can from there.

The jelly part will not hold a hinge or notch, reacts like a pile of wet rags and if felling the head off keep cutting thru the hinge or it'll hang there and whack ya.

The lightening strike tends to disrupt the way the cells work (the electrons etc), they become disfunctional and rot. As they're entirely sapwood the current isn't confined to the sapwood ... the whole palm is sapwood so the lot cops it.

The video in this thread shows what the top of the lightening struck Cuban palm was like. Luckily by the time we arrived to cut it down the whole head fell off!

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=33375


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## l2edneck (Oct 19, 2006)

i got no sound but from the looks of it thats what killed the one i dropped yesterday 

View attachment 39092


Thats the cut just below the head.looks familiar :hmm3grin2orange: 


Thx ekka ill get some vid if she calls me to drop the washie....


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## pitkas (Oct 19, 2006)

In Hawaii they spike palms. It looks horrible being on a beautiful beach and seeing all these palms with holes up and down. Waikiki Beach is the worst. I pointed it out to my wife and she could care less, like she gave a care.


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## Ekka (Oct 20, 2006)

I got a $1000 on lightening strike ... any takers?


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## Ekka (Oct 31, 2006)

12edneck

I cleaned these 3 today, now this is how I leave them, what do you think?


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## vharrison2 (Oct 31, 2006)

Those look good Ekka!


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## l2edneck (Oct 31, 2006)

Lookin good bud


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## vharrison2 (Oct 31, 2006)

l2edneck said:


> Im always eager to learn more.Especially when it comes to palms



http://www.floridaisa.org/

There is a good seminar going on in Orlando soon, lots of info on Palms. 2 of our guys are attending today in Homestead.


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## justoon (Dec 14, 2006)

Hey Ekka how many cocos palms do you trim or do you just try to cut them all out??


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## Ekka (Dec 15, 2006)

I clean a few but cut more down than I clean.


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## Bermie (Dec 16, 2006)

vharrison2 said:


> http://www.floridaisa.org/
> 
> There is a good seminar going on in Orlando soon, lots of info on Palms. 2 of our guys are attending today in Homestead.



Oh I'm jealous...stuck out here in the Atlantic we don't get any cool seminars or stuff, just got to keep checking the internet!


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## JohN Dee (Dec 23, 2006)

Ekka said:


> I clean a few but cut more down than I clean.



Yar I second that. Also most I clean end up getting us to cut them down after the second clean when they start thinking "Hey this is gunna cost me every 3 months".

*Cough* Not to mention we plant a seed in their head(Customer)


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