# how to avoid pinching the saw



## Vuotto (Apr 17, 2009)

I've got a large white pine that came down during a storm that I'm having some trouble with. The tree was at the top of a steep incline and the roots broke and pulled right out of the ground. 

This is the situation. There is about 6' of the tree left the stump end is sitting up on it's roots about 3' off the ground and the ground slopes down under the tree, so the top of this piece is on the ground and then it goes up on an angle to the stump. How do I cut this up without pinching my saw?

My plan is to go under the tree as close to the stump as I can get and cut a wide notch about 1/2 way thorough and then cut down to the notch from the top side. Does that make sense?


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## outdoorlivin247 (Apr 17, 2009)

Just keep this in mind...

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=93362


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## Vuotto (Apr 17, 2009)

Thanks for the story. That is really too bad. I'm thinking that underneath the root ball there are a few roots still in the ground, but I don't know. I could chain the root ball to one of the other trees and pull it tight with a come along. 

The other thing I was considering is knocking all the dirt out of the roots and then trying to cut down from the top. 

Clearly this is not something new that has never happened before. I am not a professional arborist and I'm wondering how something like this is normally handled?


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## outdoorlivin247 (Apr 17, 2009)

Bore cutting or plastic wedges are going to be the best way to do it w/o pinching the saw...Pictures would help get a better idea of what you are working w/...


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## Vuotto (Apr 17, 2009)

I will try to get some pictures tonight and post them.


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## Thechap (Apr 17, 2009)

Start cutting through the top until it begins to close. Pull out the saw and cut up through the bottom to the top cut. Be careful which way she slides.


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## masiman (Apr 17, 2009)

Thechap is right about how to avoid binding the saw. However, a fallen over tree will not always want to stand back up. Most will want to stand back up or be neutral, a few will want to continue falling over. In any case, you'll need to know which side is in compression and which side is in tension. Cut your compression side first. Stay away from where pieces may want to go after breaking free. Watch out for branches that may be hung up underneath and waiting to spring out, they can be super dangerous. You are probably best off clearing off any branches that may have energy stored in them prior to separating the spar from the root ball. Stay opposite from where something will roll or where a branch will spring to.


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## dbotos (Apr 17, 2009)

1) It sounds like the CG of the stump/roots/dirt is going to be on the downhill side of the supporting roots. Imagine someone doing a split, where one leg is the tree trunk, the other is the roots that are still going into the ground, and you're gonna kick that first leg out. When you kick that downhill leg out, the remainder is going to want to go downhill.

2) How elastic and how well-rooted are the supporting roots? Even if the CG is on the downhill side of the supporting roots, they still may be able to hold the stump/roots/dirt once you cut the remainer of the trunk off.

3) If the roots are holding the stump 3 feet off the ground, I'm assuming they're sticking out to each side the same amount. This is what would be coming down on you and possibly taking you down the hill.

Here's what I would suggest:

1) Pick a side that you will be standing on.

2) Rig the roots/stump to another tree or something solid so that you are applying tension _away_ from the side you will be standing on. This should roll the stump laterally away from you as it goes down hill.

3) Tie yourself off to something solid uphill. Think about how mountain/rock climbers do that sideways traversing technique.

4) Cut off all the roots on your side. Use a cheap handsaw or something else insensitive if you don't want to get dirt/grit in your chainsaw. Now there is nothing directly uphill from you to come down on you and possibly take you down the hill.

5) The bottom side of the trunk should be in tension and the top side in compression. The point where they meet is called the neutral axis and its location is going to depend on a lot of factors. Like Thechap said, cut down from the top until you get the first sense of pinch and then cut up from the bottom. Making a small wedge cut on the bottom side and then gradually widening and deepening it may give you some more clearance to get the saw (and yourself) out of there when things start to go over.

6) Post some before and after pics.

note: I'm assuming the tree is pointing pretty much straight downhill. If it's at any angle to the hill, cut from the side that puts you more uphill.


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## Vuotto (Apr 18, 2009)

This is the tree, or what is left of it:

http://bit.ly/cAACO

I don't think this tree wants to go back up.


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## dbotos (Apr 18, 2009)

Rig 'er to that little sally right off to the side. Knock whatever dirt out of the roots you can with a pickaxe while standing uphill of it after you get it rigged.


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## masiman (Apr 18, 2009)

I wouldn't even mess with the roots, too much work trying to separate them and for not much return. I assume that there are no dangers if pieces roll down the hill (fences, structures, etc.).

It looks like the left side of the from the first pic looking down the tree from the top is the better side to cut from. If you are uncertain how the tree will behave after weight comes off, take smaller pieces, say firewood size pieces. That way if it does want to stand back up it will be a slower snap up with less weight being suddenly removed from the spar.

I can't tell from the pic which way it wants to go, up down or neutral. Your first cut will let you know.


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## arbadacarba (Apr 18, 2009)

What you have there is a classic "reverse land clam". *You have a better than 50% chance that thing will come right over on you if you cut near the base*. Cable it off securely on the largest roots you can find on the upper right and left sides of the stump, then walk the tree back as Masiman suggests. If you are lucky you will get it back to where you want it with a minimum of fuss.

You should also make sure that someone is there watching you at all times in case anything goes wrong!


As far as the actual cuts go they are quite simple. Stand on the compression side if there is any side compression and cut from the top straight down on the opposite side to about half way through the tree. This leaves you with a lot of holding wood and makes the tree want to continue to move away from you rather than towards you. Your next cut is straight down slowly until you see the tree begin to tighten up. Your final cut is from the bottom up, with sag in the stump opening the cut up for you as you go. If the reverse happens, and the cut begins to close, finish your cut from the top. 

Be *very* careful with situations like this. Loose butts have killed a lot of people. If you are unsure, then there should be no room for bravado!


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## Vuotto (Apr 20, 2009)

At this point it's off the lawn so I'm not in any big rush to remove the rest of it. Right now it's tied to the smaller tree to the right just in case. I will post an update when I finally get it out of there. Thanks for all the advice!


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## JeffL (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeah, looks like without any support that stump will want to roll over towards the log once the two are cut apart, kind of a hairy cut. If you're able to get the stump pulled up at all and the log up off the ground, obviously cut from the top down, but if you get the stump supported in a position that it will not come over the top once its cut, with the log still on the ground, you'll likely end up wanting to cut from the bottom up.

Where in MA are you?


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2009)

masiman said:


> Thechap is right about how to avoid binding the saw. However, a fallen over tree will not always want to stand back up. Most will want to stand back up or be neutral, a few will want to continue falling over. In any case, you'll need to know which side is in compression and which side is in tension. Cut your compression side first. Stay away from where pieces may want to go after breaking free. Watch out for branches that may be hung up underneath and waiting to spring out, they can be super dangerous. You are probably best off clearing off any branches that may have energy stored in them prior to separating the spar from the root ball. Stay opposite from where something will roll or where a branch will spring to.



I think its better to start from the bottom if you can get a bar under there and cut all the way up. The strap of holding wood at the top will control the log as the cut opens. I try the other way and the log comes down fast pushing the bar into the dirt.


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2009)

Thechap said:


> Start cutting through the top until it begins to close. Pull out the saw and cut up through the bottom to the top cut. Be careful which way she slides.



You think so.


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2009)

Vuotto said:


> Thanks for the story. That is really too bad. I'm thinking that underneath the root ball there are a few roots still in the ground, but I don't know. I could chain the root ball to one of the other trees and pull it tight with a come along.
> 
> The other thing I was considering is knocking all the dirt out of the roots and then trying to cut down from the top.
> 
> Clearly this is not something new that has never happened before. I am not a professional arborist and I'm wondering how something like this is normally handled?



Normally? They call a professional. But its to late for that now. Good thing its not to late for you though. You're spidey senses must have been tingling on the last cut you made.
If you cut ( from underneath) taking off short sections ( a foot, no more) you might coax it down. I am not there so I can't say for certain but its best to tie that thing off first.


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## Vuotto (Apr 21, 2009)

My senses told me that if I pinch the saw under the weight of that stump or if it landed on me it would be trouble. After carrying a few of those logs down the hill you begin to respect the gravity (no pun intended) of the situation. At this point the tree is off the lawn which is what I really wanted anyhow. now it's just a matter of cosmetics. I want to try to get that space clear so I can plant a new tree in the Fall, other than that I have no need to rush into it.

Right now at the front of it there are a few branches about 1 or 2 inches below it that are actually holding some of the weight. I'm hoping if I can tie those roots to another tree that once I get enough weight off of them I can use the come along to pull the stump back to where it was. There is really no way to get a truck up there so it's either that or just leave it. I'm in Central MA.


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## randyg (Apr 21, 2009)

*KISS Keep It Simple & Safe*

You mentioned a come-along? Looks like root section will want to go down hill (the way of the log). To try making one cut at base of tree using ANY of the aforementioned methods will put you UNDER the danger? 

Rope or chain around base of tree, run up and over root section and further up-hill and secured to nearby tree? Tighten with that come-along as much as poss. or till tip of log eases up off ground. Then piece the log back and flop root section back up into hole.

TRUST YOUR TINGLING SPIDEY SENSES


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## Vuotto (Oct 7, 2009)

I managed to get a piece about the size of 2 firewood lengths off by cutting a wide notch in the top and coming up from the bottom between two branches that were holding it up underneath. Now it is definitely on the ground, and the top is under compression. 

It is tied off to the tree next to it, but before the winter I want to try and lift it up by roping it to a maple that is behind it and using the come along Like Randy suggested.


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## newsawtooth (Oct 13, 2009)

You already know this, your risk far out weighs your reward in this scenario. Can you get a burn permit where you are? Burn it during a winter snow if you must get rid of it. Best of luck.


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## Plasmech (Oct 14, 2009)

Airspade the dirt off the root ball, then cuts the roots off with a carbide tipped chain. That't the $1,300 solution.

Leaving it there is what I would do unless there's something going on there I can't see.


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## Vuotto (Oct 17, 2009)

My only concern with leaving it there is that the roots on the underside let go it could roll down towards the house. For now it's tied off to another tree with a big rope. 

I think it is going to end up staying there.


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