# firewood profit



## DWittenbreder (Jul 15, 2004)

If your paying for bulk logs you will never clear a profit. Firewood is VERY labor intesive and takes alot of time. Bottom line is to make any money doing firewood you must get the wood for free!!!


----------



## Stumper (Jul 15, 2004)

Get it free or be a middleman buying salaeble wood and reselling it. I know one guy who made some money buying it hauled to his yard and then reselling to someone who picked it up by the semi-load. He only made about $12 per face cord but never touched it and sold heaps of wood.


----------



## spencerhenry (Jul 19, 2004)

free wood or no wood!


----------



## sedanman (Jul 27, 2004)

There's profit in firewoood? Where? How?


----------



## LogRite (Aug 2, 2004)

I busted my ass trying to make money on firewood. After all was said and done, cutting, splitting and delivering. I might have cleared $5 and hour. At least I didn't have to join a gym to get a workout!


----------



## Gypo Logger (Aug 25, 2004)

There is money in firewood if done correctly. Most wouldbe firewooders simply lose out by handling the stuff to many times.
The best approach is to buy it on the stump from private woodlot owners or government forests, where the trees have been marked for a lowgrade thinning. Expect to pay at least 10$/crd. You need at least a 4wd tractor with loader and 3pt hitch logging winch. Fall the trees one at a time, block the crown, load the pieces in a bucket, spin around and hitch up the body wood log length, skid to landing, dump bucket in truck, block body wood, split with axe and load. Then repeat till truck is full. No piling, no playing around with the wood. Sell to rural homeowners who heat their house predominantly with wood who don't mind buying green. Three full cords can be processed this way in 6-10 hrs., if the timber is reasonably good, ie, 8-16" dbh. You must have a good grasp of the chainsaw, falling, blocking and using a 6# maul and make every second count.
With the way wood prices are going, it may be less labour intensive to sell 10'- 16' firewood logs to customers who want to cut their own, if the trucking distance isn't too far.
Getting your timber this way is a good way to gravitate towards logging if you do a good job in the woods. I already did my 5000 crds by hand this way between 1983 and 1994, so I think I've had my fill, other than for recreational purposes.
John


----------



## rmihalek (Aug 26, 2004)

*WHOA!*

Let's see 5000 cords/12 years (1983 through 1994)= 417 cords per year. 

At the rate of 3 cords a day, then a person would have to work 138 days, without pause, to move this amount of wood. Also stated was that this three cords of wood would have to be felled, bucked, skidded, SPLIT BY HAND, loaded into a truck and delivered in the same day.

I've split wood for week's on end, by hand (using a saw for the gnarly pieces), but I just don't see having the time to do anything else with splitting 3 cords a day by hand. 

Now, there are some exceptions: if a fair amount of this wood was delivered tree-length, then, yeah, I can see someone moving that amount of wood. 

I think the only way to make a decent living selling firewood is by getting paid to take the trees, and having a totally hands-free operation: 8+ cords per day processor, conveyor belts, and big trucks. YMMV.


----------



## glens (Aug 26, 2004)

You've gotta remember:&nbsp; Canadian days are longer.


----------



## Al Smith (Aug 26, 2004)

*Fire wood*

During the early 70's, I sold fire wood for $40. per pick up load.Cut,split stacked .A pick up,is about 1/2 cord .The wood was free. I had around 50 customers,and avearaged about 3 to 4 cords per week.At that time,I made around $10. per hr., as a journeyman electrician,and about the same,selling the wood. Ironically ,the price of fire wood,has not kept up with inflation,or at least,not in this neck of the woods. Again,as has been stated,it is labor intensive ,back breaking work.You can put beans on the table,but not much steak.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 7, 2004)

My story reads like Klondike Mike carrying a piano over the Chilkoot Pass, but it's true.
I remember in 83' struggling to do 1.5 crds on a 69' F250, all by hand when a forester told me of a firewood producer doing 3 crds/day. I thought this claim was outlandish, but made it my goal and that's what I did. I think I was 130# soaking wet in those days. My best year was 580 crds and 10,000 ft. of sawlogs.
So it can be done, but it's all between the ears.
John


----------



## ehp (Sep 7, 2004)

Gypo in the early 1990's when you could not give a log away we also was cutting firewood , I got $ 36 to cut , split and load a bush cord 4 ft by 4 ft by 8 ft, cut 16 inches long , that was the going price to cut wood for somebody . So to make any money you worked your ass off.


----------



## Wilson_tree (Sep 7, 2004)

There is one secret to firewood profit that everyone seems to overlook. In the mid-70s through the mid-80s my dad made decent money on firewood. My two brothers and I busted our butts for about 2 bucks a day cutting, loading, splitting, loading, delivering, and unloading sticks of wood. We used a one ton pickup, a small JD tractor, a hydraulic splitter and mauls to process about 30 cords of wood (say 100+ face cords) each summer. If your labor costs are low and you scrimp on equipment you can make out okay.


----------



## Marky Mark (Sep 8, 2004)

There is another way to make money. I own a Timberwolf Splitter and conveyor. Tree guys will line up to drop logs off at my house. Here they pay to get rid of wood. All I do is saw the log next to the splitter and away it goes. After that I load it in a dump trailer with my tractor and dump it at the house no stacking or I will drop my trailer off and you can unload it. I go back in say 3 days and pick the trailer up. In my area I can get 200-250 a cord but my wood is dry. Right now I am sitting on about 40 cords split and aged for 6 months right now. 

There is a landscaper here who sells about 150 cords a year for 300 bucks delivered and stacked. DO the math. There's money if you do it right and a KD385.


----------



## rmihalek (Sep 8, 2004)

150 cords X 300 per cord is $45,000. That's some nice change! What makes it even nicer is that it is a cash business. Clearing 45k after taxes probably requires anywhere from 60 to 90k depending on your state. A sad state of affairs in the "Land of the Free" but until we change it, that's the deal.


----------



## a_lopa (Sep 9, 2004)

a excavator thou (expensive)id like a 20t cat with grab running 3/4 chain on cut off saw.you could sell fire wood in wheels by the semi trailer load LOL ill keep dreaming


----------



## rmihalek (Sep 9, 2004)

*HUH?*

Aussie, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.


----------



## glens (Sep 9, 2004)

maybe think feller-buncher?


----------



## John Stewart (Sep 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by glens _
> *You've gotta remember:&nbsp; Canadian days are longer. *



Oh Ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Crofter (Sep 9, 2004)

Around here firewood goes for $ 50 Can. a face cord or the equivalent of about $ 100 US for a full cord. Take all your operating expense off and all capital cost and its not too much more than minimum wage. A local fellow has been doing it full time for about 4 years but he and his equip are about worn out. The department of Transportation stopped him a few weeks ago. His trailer was pulled off for no brakes, overweight, inadequate license on truck etc. Everything is parked and all the wood is cleaned up out of his yard. Hear he has applied for welfare. You can't make it that way any longer. Around the city where the yuppies will pay two or three times as much and you get mechanised and have a bit of dollars saved for emergencies, you might make it, but you ain't getting fat at it.


----------



## ehp (Sep 11, 2004)

Frank we went the other way cause we were logging any way so the wood logs were pretty much free plus you cleaned the bush up alot better, we built and ran a fast wood processer, with most things on micro switches, so as you cut your next block it split the other one so a normal cycle was 6.4 seconds, we cut 2 loads a day , 5 or 6 days a week . a load is 12 bush cords , so 24 bush cords a day , sold them to wood yards in Toronto at $165 per cord so $1980 per load. it took 3 guys to run this part and a truck driver. yes there is money in wood but you have to work your ass off but if you have to buy your wood logs that makes thing alitter tighter


----------



## Nickrosis (Sep 12, 2004)

Oooh, a smooth 1500 posts, ehp.


----------



## Nickrosis (Sep 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Marky Mark _
> *In my area I can get 200-250 a cord but my wood is dry. Right now I am sitting on about 40 cords split and aged for 6 months right now.
> 
> There is a landscaper here who sells about 150 cords a year for 300 bucks delivered and stacked. DO the math. There's money if you do it right and a KD385. *


We're at $200/cord dumped. $225 stacked. I think we could charge more for stacking, though!


----------



## xander9727 (Sep 12, 2004)

Here there is only a moderate demand for firewood and a lot of landscapers and father/son teams that sell it. Your doing well if you get $175 a cord stacked. Most sell for $125-$140 dumped. For me that isn't worth the headache. The bottom of zone 5, top of zone 6 isn't a good money maker for firewood or snow removal.


----------



## rmihalek (Sep 12, 2004)

What does zone 5 and zone 6 mean?


----------



## xander9727 (Sep 12, 2004)

The USDA hardiness zones for plants.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/wildseed/info/6.1.html


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Sep 13, 2004)

I always go read a thread if it sais "firewood" in the title.  

But, ya, I make a living off of selling firewood. The trick for me is getting all of the trees or fuel wood logs for free or cheap and avoiding handling the wood too many times. Obviosly..


You can't be messing around loading/unloading a truck or trailer by hand, you gotta have a loader tractor and a truck or trailer that dumps.

Obviosly no splitting with an axe, you gotta use a hydrolic splitter.

Definatly no piling the wood up to dry. A windy place with a dry underground will do just fine for srying if you dump it in a big heap.

You can't be driving very far to get your wood. And you gotta use a diesel truck instead of gasoline.

Naturally you need to be in good shape physically and have equipment that is reliable and shrp chainsaws and all that. And you gotta be really good at using that equipment.

Anyways, now adays in a 60 hour work week (yes, you gotta work long hours) I'll do maybe 80 face cords that I'll sell for $65/ face cord which makes $5200 (CAN). I am paying for some of the wood and all my equipment and fuel is costing me a lot of money, but I think I'm doing alright. Not getting rich, but I'm doing alright and I'm outside doing what I like doing.

And whoever said that there is a big differance between making a certian amount in cash and making that in taxable income made a really great point. You gotta remeber that.

I think the reason that most start up firewood bussinesses go bankrupt is because they dont have all the nessicary equipment which makes them handle the wood too many times, and they dont have the experiance to make it all work efficiantly without unnessicary handling of the wood. Doing inefficiant little things like throwing the wood on a pickup by hand or driving a full hour to sell $100 in wood is what gets them.

Also, having a good costomer base where people know you and know you sell quality firewood helps a lot too. You can probably buy firewood $10 cheaper than what i sell it for in my area, but the good costomer base is what lets me keep selling it at $65/cord.


----------



## Paul Downes (Sep 20, 2004)

If you have a grapple truck you can minimize handleing the wood. I always laugh when I see guys cutting firewood into blocks and splitting them and then throwing them in a pick-up. Of course I do the same thing, but hey, I need the exercise. A few years ago we cleaned up 9 acres of oak tops by cutting 8' lengths and hauling them to a wood processing site. Took us a week. One way I pay the land owner is to cut some wood for them to sell, on a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio. At least I don't have to shell out $. Free is best and a lot of people just want their woods cleaned up.


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Sep 23, 2004)

A truck with an actual grapple would be expensive and you need a special kind of truck to place logs on. A loader tractor or an industrial loader is the next best thing (and load the blocks with that).


----------



## Newfie (Sep 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Paul Downes _
> * At least I don't have to shell out $. Free is best and a lot of people just want their woods cleaned up. *



Your time is free? Mine isn't.


----------



## Ryan Willock (Sep 24, 2004)

Durn right mike!


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Sep 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Newfie _
> *Your time is free? Mine isn't. *



He means free trees. That way your expenses are the hours that you spend working at it and costs for equipment (saws, truck, trailer, etc) and fuel and oil.

If you get free trees you should be able to make some money if you are efficiant. If you make big money as an arborist p ) the moeny you make doesn't seem like much. But deffinatly for the weekend arrior it's a good way to avoid a yearly gym fee.


----------



## John Stewart (Sep 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *We're at $200/cord dumped. $225 stacked. I think we could charge more for stacking, though! *



Hey Nick
I could be wrong but were you not chargin $10.00 to stack on your website?
Even though I see your upin your rate you still got to charge at least 35 US or 50 CDN
Stackin isn't fun and it depends how far!
If you go fair on the cord and high on the handlin you should be OK
Later
John


----------



## John Green (Sep 27, 2004)

Query: What is a maul used for in splitting wood? I'm obviously a novice, and have been using my chainsaw to split the wood. It's a little awkward. (I'm not in business)

I have no axe, but do have a large hatchet, plus a small sledge and wedge.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Sep 27, 2004)

Welcome, John Green.


----------



## Newfie (Sep 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Green _
> *Query: What is a maul used for in splitting wood? I'm obviously a novice, and have been using my chainsaw to split the wood. It's a little awkward. (I'm not in business)
> 
> I have no axe, but do have a large hatchet, plus a small sledge and wedge. *



The maul is used to split the rounds of wood lengthwise after standing them up. It has a long handle and a 6-8 pound head. One side of the head looks like a sledge and can drive wedges if needed and the other side looks like an axe for splitting. Much easier than any of the methods you described.

Hope this isn't wasted on a troll. Welcome to AS.


----------



## NeTree (Sep 27, 2004)

Mike, I thought you used the bandsaw to split wood?


----------



## Newfie (Sep 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Mike, I thought you used the bandsaw to split wood?
> 
> *




The thought had never crossed my mind. Maybe big wood isn't such big work anymore?


----------



## John Green (Sep 27, 2004)

Thanks, Master & Newfie. I guess a maul then acts like an axe?

Anyway, maybe I'll check out buying one, since the hatchet is not enough for the job. I've cut several trees in a woods behind my backyard, mainly for landscaping. I've bucked them and have maybe two cords of wood in a pile.

The saw cuts okay, but you have to get it to dig in before the wood skitters away.


----------



## glens (Sep 27, 2004)

I like an 8 pound maul for the good balance between the amount of effort typically required to both throw it up overhead and to then pull it downward toward the target.&nbsp; The 6 pound maul head goes up easier, but usually requires much more downward force.&nbsp; Swinging it from waist high, around the back, and over the head, in one continuous motion just doesn't work as well.&nbsp; You're not using an axe and that motion will tire you quickly.

I prefer the axe-eye mauls with wood handles.&nbsp; I'm on my fourth or fifth season on my current handle and it's just now starting to lose a little profile immediately below the head.

Check out http://www.woodheat.org/firewood/splitting.htm, which is most excellent except for perhaps the recommendation on weight.&nbsp; I'd worked out the same methodology independently several years ago.&nbsp; I can swing either handed and can walk a line across the round and/or could hit a pea 9 times out of 10.&nbsp; With a little practice, you can too.&nbsp; Firewood is fun; it warms you several times.

Glen


----------



## Nickrosis (Sep 28, 2004)

Splitting mauls have a much wider angle wedge, too. 

John, I just found out our firewood rates went up. 
Price Dumped (Stacked):
Face: $90 ($100)
Half: $130 ($150)
Full: $230 ($265)

Usually, it just takes sitting down at the phone and calling people who've ordered in the past. A popular thing to suggest is that they split with a neighbor. You sell more, and they get a bulk discount.

The job keeps one or two people busy delivering on Saturdays in the fall/early winter. Selling in the newspaper isn't usually effective because the competition is based on price. With commodities like firewood, it's hard to have a big margin.

Right now, I'd like to find someone who wants 100 cords for a complex or something. That would make my day, even at volume pricing.


----------



## John Green (Sep 28, 2004)

Thanks, guys. I now see that the maul is more like a wedge than an axe is. I'll check one out at the local hardware.

I don't have a fireplace myself, and intend to give this stuff away--part to my son and part to a next-door neighbor.


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Sep 29, 2004)

"Maul" is a term I hate. I call it my splitting ax and everyone knows what I mean.

Nickrosis: $90 for a stacked face cord? That's pretty nice money in US dollars/


----------



## stavenstumper (Oct 1, 2004)

what is the proper "seasoning" time and method, example stacked? covered? palletted? pilled?etc.


----------



## Bills Oak (Oct 1, 2004)

Everybody here that has responded is correct--nice for a change--I have been splitting & selling firewood for about 15 years now in Florida--the only way to make ANY MONEY is to get FREE WOOD---buy a splitter with cash that you have saved splitting wood by hand----have the majority of your customers pick up the wood themselves! I have a good customer that buys 15 cords at a time--loads it by hand into the back of a produce truck--with 5 guys throwing wood it takes about three hours--he then bundles it & sells it for about $5.00 per bundle--5-7 pieces. He makes good money at it & I don't do too bad either. I sell about 150 cords per year at an average of $75.00 per cord & I only deliver about 10 cords total. It is very hard labor intensive work but like I tell my wife I get good exercise, make a few dollars & don't have to go to a gym like her for $300 per year fees!


----------



## Ax-man (Oct 1, 2004)

*Splitting wood with hand tools*

I used to do all our wood by with hand tools. I've been meaning to start a thread on the different things that have worked good and some that don't work at all.

Anyone ever use a Monster Maul or Missouri Maul ( same thing ) it is twice as wide as the standard maul, works much better IMO. It is heavier than a regular maul of course, you hold it eye level and with a good flick of the wrist, the weight will split most pieces the first time.

For bigger rounds, I have a pair of twisted wedges, that work really good. I forgot where I got them from and would like to get some more, anyone happen to know what I'm talking about and where I could get some.

A variation of the standard wedge is what I would call a stepped wedge. It has smaller wedges at different heights on the sides to increase the width of the wedge as it goes down into the wood. This also works extremely good.

I can post some pics if anyone is curious as to what I'm talking about.

The worst wood splitting gadget I ever bought was the Oregon Wood Grenade. It is well named, drive it into some wood and it will pop out of the wood and bomb your foot, steel toed boots are advised when using this one. Basically it looks like an ice cream cone.

The best tool of all is the hydraulic splitter, can't beat those. 

Nick,

Your prices for wood are average, but I think you are giving your labor away for stacking, my friend. I rarely stack wood for people as I feel I have handled the darn stuff enough just to get it to them. If I do stack, I charge your prices *Only* if it is within twenty feet of the truck. When you offer to stack wood people want you to put some in basement or cart it to the back yard or put some in a shed that is a half a football field from the driveway.

If they must have it stacked by us and it is not close to the truck the price is a firm $ 30 / face cord *period* no exceptions. I know this is a heck of an attitude to have and do not get many takers for this, but I have been jacked around too many times over the years on this stacking issue, wood stacking is not worth my time or someone who is working for us to do it for less. 

Larry


----------



## John Ellison (Oct 1, 2004)

Last winter I bought a True Temper splitting axe. Only 4 lb and as wide as a maul but with a skeletonized head. Have not touched my regular mauls since. I can split more wood with even less effort.

John


----------



## alanarbor (Oct 5, 2004)

Get the local arborists to pay you for the priveledge of you disposing of their wood. Here in PA we pay 2-300 a load for a sub to come haul away logs from our jobs, wether it's good wood or not. Then you get paid twice for the wood you process.


----------



## Timberwerks (Oct 24, 2004)

This is my first post and my first year selling firewood. So far selling firewood is going well. I get the tress dumped here at my lot for free from local tree services. The bring me large Ash, Elm, Oak and Maple trees about 4' - 6' in length. I buck them and split them as soon as they come in. If the trucks come before I have the last load split I just buck and stack the logs for splitting later.
I invested in a Timberwolf TW-5 splitter so splitting goes fairly easy and fast. I charge $65.00 for a face cord + $15.00 for stacking. $100.00 for half cord + $25.00 stacking. $200.00 for a full cord + $35.00 stacking. I do not charge for delivery within a 15mi area. Most of my orders are for half cords and I get my buisiness from fliers I pass out. So far I am very pleased with how things are going. I can see myself getting a larger truck for next year since I am using a short box pickup. When I get calls for a full cord I have a friend of mine deliver it in his dump truck.

Dale


----------



## Nickrosis (Oct 24, 2004)

Welcome to the site. I'm 1 mile south of Mequon.


----------



## Timberwerks (Oct 24, 2004)

Thanks for the welcome. It's nice to see a post from someone so close. I am located on Baehr road in Mequon roughly 60th and Donges Bay. If your ever in the area stop in and say hi. In the upcoming weeks I will also be setting up for sawmilling. This will be done mostly for my own use for furniture. You most likely know the Wallace and North Shore guy's. I just meet Lance Wallace a few months ago and help him out from time to time.

Take Care
Dale


----------



## Nickrosis (Oct 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Timberwerks _
> *Thanks for the welcome. It's nice to see a post from someone so close. I am located on Baehr road in Mequon roughly 60th and Donges Bay. If your ever in the area stop in and say hi. *


I drove past your house 10 minutes ago!

I know Lance.....we go way back. Tell him I have issues with his flooring dude.


----------



## Timberwerks (Oct 25, 2004)

I must have missed you. I take the dog out for his last walk about that time. I'm the house with the firewood sign and the chainsawed bear on the mailbox post. I'll talk to Lance this week. I'm going to see if he can bring his chipper by so I can get rid of some of the off cuts and other not so nice wood. If you know anyone that has a woodburner they can have them free. I'd keep them myself but after awhile the pile looks a mess.

See Ya
Dale


----------



## Nickrosis (Oct 27, 2004)

We trade the stove wood for getting our trucks washed for free.  Pretty good deal if you ask me! Some detailing, several waxings a year.... Not a bad deal.

Let me know if you ever need anything. I'm off to TCI Expo in Detroit for the next week, but I'll be around after that.


----------



## Timberwerks (Oct 27, 2004)

Thanks, have a good time at the expo. If you ever run across anything that would be good for milling let me know. I build slab tables (contemporary) and I'm always on the look out for something unique. I'd love to find some Cherry. I usally buy from Kettle Moraine but it would interesting to build from something I milled. I also carve fireplace mantels so large timber for those is always nice.

Take Care
Dale


----------



## Nickrosis (Oct 27, 2004)

FYI....Lance's father passed away. His funeral is on Sunday.


----------



## Timberwerks (Oct 27, 2004)

I just found out this morning to. I hope Lance pull's through this ok. I just met Lance a short time ago and he had mentioned his father was not doing well. I will be going to a wedding this weekend so I won't be able to attend the funeral. If you happen to talk to or see him tell him my thoughts are with him. I lost my Aunt this year to cancer and my cousin three years ago to leaukemia and I know it's a tough thing to go through.

Take Care
Dale


----------



## Nickrosis (Nov 2, 2004)

I did get to stop by the funeral, and I'm glad I did.

On the topic of firewood:
We're in full swing here! We've got $10,000 of firewood to unload and put towards winter bills.  

We've got a guy making calls - he's awesome...just racking up the sales. 

I'm thinking we could start splitting some pieces really small and plastic wrapping them separately. It would get the same effect of what you were getting at, Dale, in terms of making people feel they're getting a value-added service and an easier-to-start first fire.


----------



## Timberwerks (Nov 2, 2004)

That sounds great. Over the weekend I had my flyer updated to add two other stack options. 

1/2 face cord includes firestarter, delivery and stacking $50.00

1/4 face cord includes firestarter, delivery and stacking $25.00

These two options are liste with the discription (perfect for weekends, holidays or just to take the chill off)

I'll send you a flyer to check out, they should be printed tonight.


How was Lance doing?

Dale


----------



## buckwheat (Nov 18, 2004)

Over the last three weeks I've noticed firewood prices in central PA increase by about 25%. (It just started getting pretty cold at night.)


----------



## Timberwerks (Nov 18, 2004)

I raised my 1/2 cord price by $5.00 to stay in line with other sellers in my area. The last couple of weeks things have been slow but this week the calls are coming in on a regular basis, even though the weather has been warm. I think the holidays coming up are a factor.

Dale


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 27, 2004)

Will someone share with me an easy way to determine the number of ricks in a log laying on the ground. I am trying to find a way so I do not have to stack to determine how many ricks I have available. Right or Wrong I consider a rick to be 16" X 4' X 8' or 1/3 of a cord. I have a large order pending and it sure would be nice not to have to stack it. Any help you veterans can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks


----------



## Newfie (Nov 28, 2004)

Measure the length and small end of the log. Then using a log scale or a volume calculator tool, figure the board feet international scale. Approximately 500 board feet to a full cord. At least that's how I would do it.


----------



## Mange (Nov 28, 2004)

Is there any firewood processers in the US. Here there is nothing else
Here the wood byers have mostly 3m length, up to 40cm diameter.
One truckload is about 70kubic meters/35ton wood, that is prcessed on a day.
My idea was to sell the 3m wood to coustemer, and if they want it cut and split, I have people for that too. So far this year I have sold 250kubik meters.
At almost no profit since I bought the timber expencive.
Next year will be different.


----------



## Al Smith (Nov 28, 2004)

If you figure volume,while in the log,remember a cord of wood,is 4' by 4' by 8 'or 128 cu ft,wood,and an amount of air space.When I sold the stuff,it was by the stacked pick up load,whice is about 1/2 cord.A rick,is usualy taken,as one cut[16 "] 4 by 8 ,but I.ve seen a lot of variations.Many states have passed laws that says all fire wood sales will be based on cord measurements or fractions there of.It also has to do with the preperation of the wood,a well split stack would contain more wood then a stack of 18" rounds etc.


----------



## Mange (Nov 28, 2004)

When I sold firewood cut and split I sold /ton.
If the wood was hard to estimate, or if it was a coustemers recuest I also sold /ton. Even a traind eye can have problems at times, so instead of guessing, I sold /ton. This way everyone knew exactly how much there was and no problems.


----------



## Nickrosis (Nov 28, 2004)

Mange said:


> When I sold firewood cut and split I sold /ton.
> If the wood was hard to estimate, or if it was a coustemers recuest I also sold /ton.


What do you mean? You sold it by the ton or ? Just not sure what you mean...


----------



## Mange (Nov 28, 2004)

Yes. 

Since I can not just enter yes, I ramble a little


----------



## Nickrosis (Nov 28, 2004)

Mange said:


> Yes.
> 
> Since I can not just enter yes, I ramble a little


10 character rule?

I thought you said that you sell it using two methods. Is that right or do you only sell it by the ton?


----------



## Mange (Nov 28, 2004)

I used to by wood growing, fall then cut and split, now I by 3m logs and sell almost everything without laying a hand on it. Just redirect.
There is a lot of people here that wants to cut and split their own wood.


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 28, 2004)

I cannot get the math to work if a cord of wood is about 500 board feet. A board foot is 1" X 1' X 1'. When I multiply the length X height X width or 8' X 4' X 48" I get 1536 board feet in one cord of wood. What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Al Smith (Nov 28, 2004)

I think,what he was refering to,is a log that would scale 500 bdf,would contain 1 cord of wood,by volume.Remember,a saw log,has a certain deduction for kerf,non usable etc.A cord,as has been pointed out,is 92 cu ft of wood,and 36 cu ft of air.I had never heard of the 500 bdf thing,but it makes sense.


----------



## glens (Nov 28, 2004)

What are you doing wrong?&nbsp; Nothing, except using inconsistent units.&nbsp; When you convert the volume "one cord" to "one board-foot", the ratio is 1536:1.&nbsp; Trouble is, a cord is not 128 ft&sup3; <i>displacement</i> and a board-foot is not 12 in&sup3; <i>displacement</i>.&nbsp; Both measurements take "waste" into account, but do so differently, so they're really not relative units. 

Erik gave a figure above of 92 ft&sup3; total displacement in a cord.&nbsp; That figure is one of several available.&nbsp; Figuring the amount of cordwood in a log might go something like this:

&nbsp; &nbsp; ((average_diameter [feet] &divide; 2)&sup2; &times; pi &times; length [feet]) &divide; 92

or make it a little easier: 

&nbsp; &nbsp; ((average_diameter [feet] &divide; 2)&sup2; &times; length [feet]) &divide; 30

16" log, 10' long:

&nbsp; &nbsp; ((1.33 &divide; 2)&sup2; &times; 10) &divide; 30

&nbsp; &nbsp; (0.44 &times; 10) &divide; 30

&nbsp; &nbsp; 0.44 &divide; 3

&nbsp; &nbsp; 0.15 cord

Glen


----------



## Newfie (Nov 28, 2004)

Thanks for the clarification Al. That's exactly what I meant. When I said volume calculator I was referring to a tool that scales the board feet in the tree, a different kind of volume when compared to how much water is in this bucket sort of thing.  

Of course that convoluted explanation I just offered probably didn't clarify anything.


----------



## Nickrosis (Nov 29, 2004)

Could you repeat that and provide a translation in Swedish as well?


----------



## Mange (Nov 29, 2004)

Do you want it in meters or inches??? :blob5:


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 29, 2004)

Inches


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 29, 2004)

Sometimes I think that I am denser than Hedge, but then that is another story. Here is my problem and I hope someone can put me on the right path.
According to Doyles Rule a log that measures 28" X 14' contains 504 board feet, and this is allowing waste for the taper and the bark. I have read that a cord of firewood contains 500 board feet, so in theory this log should have at least one cord of firewood. 

Now, using the formula "((average_diameter [feet] ÷ 2)² × pi × length [feet]) ÷ 92"

((28"÷12)÷2)² x 3.14 x 14÷ 92

1.3689 x 3.14 x14 ÷ 92 = 0.654 cord

I would think regardless of which approach you take, the results should indicate the same amount of cordwood in a log, but these two approaches do not, what am I doing wrong.


----------



## glens (Nov 29, 2004)

I've got a Hewlett Packard graphing calculator which works with units of measurement.&nbsp; Using it, I convert from built-in units of ft&sup3; to board-feet (1 board foot = .002359737216 m&sup3;<tt></tt>).&nbsp; In terms of pure displacement, 92 ft&sup3; = 1104 board feet.

I'd say what you're doing wrong is going by the rule that a log which will produce 500 board feet will produce one cord.&nbsp; Unless you're taking into consideration that every bit of the material goes to making cordwood while you're throwing away a fair percentage (half, by volume?) making the boards.

What's your dilemma?&nbsp; Are you trying to decide quickly in the field which way a log will be more valuable to you?

Glen


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 29, 2004)

I have a customer for firewood. He would like the firewood to be in logs. This is my dilemma. How do I know when I have cut enough logs to make seven cords. As you know each log is different and I am trying find a formula I can use in the field to determine how many cords are in a log, and the easiest measurements are average diameter and length.

I have heard repeatedly that there are 500 board feet in a cord of wood, so according to Doyles Rule you should yield a cord of wood from a log that is 28" in diameter and 14' long. It is my understanding the Doyles Rule takes into consideration, the taper of the log, the bark on the log and allows 1/4" kerf for each pass for the sawblade when cutting lumber. Now with all this waste using Doyles Rule, one would think that if you are using the entire log you should yield more cords of firewood than you would yield cords of lumber, but when I calculate using the formula "Radius Squared * Pi * Length / 92 I get less yield in cords of firewood per log which to me is not logical. 

Bottom line is I do not want to short my customer, but at the same time I do not want to give lumber away and short myself.

A log 28" x 14' yields 504 board feet (More than a cord) according to Doyles Rule with a lot of waste for the kerf, bark and taper.

A log 28" x 14' yields only 0.65 of a cord using the formula "((average_diameter [feet] ÷ 2)² × pi × length [feet]) ÷ 92" and there is no waste for kerf, bark, and taper. To me if you do not waste anything you should yield more cords of firewood then you would lumber out of the same log. 

I sure wish there was a smiley face of one scratching ones head.


----------



## Newfie (Nov 29, 2004)

28" on the small end? When determining BF in a log the measurement inside the bark at the small tip is the "diameter".


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 29, 2004)

28" DIB on the small end when you are using Doyles Rule. It is amazing that I cannot express myself so that someone can understand what I am saying. If you have two logs exactly the same size, you turn one into lumber and you get 500 board feet (One Cord) and a lot of waste then you turn the other log into firewood with no waste you should yield more than one cord of wood.


----------



## glens (Nov 29, 2004)

I don't know what to tell you.&nbsp; A log of the size you cited will not produce 1 cord of wood.&nbsp; I don't know why you're so tenaciously hanging on to that 500:1 figure.

By pure displacement, a log 28" diameter (no taper) 14' long, contains 59.9 ft&sup3; or converted to board-feet, 718.&nbsp; That's no waste, naturally, for scarf/kerf when sawing the boards.&nbsp; If there's 30% waste then that would be 500 board-feet, but as you see, it sure ain't no more than 2/3 cord (based on 92 ft&sup3; solid volume).

Glen


----------



## Newfie (Nov 30, 2004)

WTF are you turning a 28" log into firewood? Why fixated w/ Doyle? International is more accurate, although I think they should all be updated to take into account the thin kerf headrigs that most mills run.

The 500BF/cord is a rule of thumb not a scientific truth,FWIW.


How are you going to deliver this stuff?


----------



## rmihalek (Nov 30, 2004)

*quick test*

Why not get one (or two) of those 28" diameter, 14 foot logs and saw it up into whatever length the customer wants, split it, then stack it, then measure it to see what fraction of a cord you're dealing with. You don't have to do this with all the logs, just one or two to get an idea. You can also leave the wood stacked so that you can show the customer: "here is the size stack that you'll get from such and such a log."

The calculations are valuable, but may not satisfy your customer. Plus depending on how you split and stack, the end result will vary. I like to split slabs from the rounds and then split square pieces from the slabs because they stack better in my stove. There isn't much air between these square pieces when I have them stacked.


----------



## Mange (Nov 30, 2004)

mswabbie said:


> I have a customer for firewood. He would like the firewood to be in logs. This is my dilemma. How do I know when I have cut enough logs to make seven cords. As you know each log is different and I am trying find a formula I can use in the field to determine how many cords are in a log, and the easiest measurements are average diameter and length.
> 
> I have heard repeatedly that there are 500 board feet in a cord of wood, so according to Doyles Rule you should yield a cord of wood from a log that is 28" in diameter and 14' long. It is my understanding the Doyles Rule takes into consideration, the taper of the log, the bark on the log and allows 1/4" kerf for each pass for the sawblade when cutting lumber. Now with all this waste using Doyles Rule, one would think that if you are using the entire log you should yield more cords of firewood than you would yield cords of lumber, but when I calculate using the formula "Radius Squared * Pi * Length / 92 I get less yield in cords of firewood per log which to me is not logical.
> 
> ...



If you would roughly estimate the volume and then be upfront with the costumer and say this, I think you will come to an fair understanding for both of you. If not, then there probably is no formula he will accept either.


----------



## mswabbie (Nov 30, 2004)

Thank You all for your help. I think my biggest problem is that I got hung up on there being 500 board feet in a cord of firewood. I did not verify this and I should have. If the wood was stacked with no air space there would be 1536 board feet in a cord of firewood. If you allow 30 percent air space there is actually 1075 board feet in a cord of firewood, not 500 board feet. Using 1075 board feet in a cord of firewood instead of 500 board feet the calculations make a lot more sense.
Again, Thank You all for Your Help.


----------



## Newfie (Nov 30, 2004)

Now I see where your confusion came in. You were applying the BF rule to the wrong pile of wood.  

What I meant by my "rule" and maybe not clearly, is that a pile of logs that scale out with a log rule to 500 BF should, when split and stacked, produce roughly a cord of firewood.

I've used this estimating method for several customers and it does work.


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Dec 15, 2011)

I just bought a load of wood for $1800 (CAN) containing 45 face cord with the intention of reselling it at $75/cord. I was just trying to figure out if I am considering enough money for equipment, fuel, depreciation, and what my realistic hourly wage is doing this.

I find this funny:

I'm on the internet looking for tips on how to make firewood selling profitable. I was mainly looking for current prices of logs by the truckload and split wood. The funny thing is that I CAME ACROSS MY OWN FRIGGIN' POST that I wrote in 2004.

I'm lucky that I was even able to remember my password.


----------



## Timberwerks (Dec 15, 2011)

Wow, it's been a long time since I've seen this thread. My first post was made here. I no longer sell firewood but seeing how things are now I wish I did. The market for hand crafted furniture is terrible, just no demand for it. There is however still demand for firewood. I should sell my woodworking tools and get another log splitter ;-)


----------



## Sport Faller (Dec 15, 2011)

Chainsaw_Maniac said:


> I just bought a load of wood for $1800 (CAN) containing 45 face cord with the intention of reselling it at $75/cord. I was just trying to figure out if I am considering enough money for equipment, fuel, depreciation, and what my realistic hourly wage is doing this.
> 
> I find this funny:
> 
> ...



Even for crappy, punky wood, 75 clams aint enough

I realize we're a helluva long ways away from each other but around here 1 cord of Larch is usually between 180.00 and 200.00 ( I was selling for 180.00 this past summer and was told by my buyers that I was on the low end of the price range) a cord of Doug fir is usually 170.00 to 180.00. Even piss fir and spruce go for more than 100.00 a cord


----------



## madhatte (Dec 15, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Even for crappy, punky wood, 75 clams aint enough



He did say "face cord" but who uses that weird unit?


----------



## Sport Faller (Dec 15, 2011)

madhatte said:


> He did say "face cord" but who uses that weird unit?



Ahhhh, I didn't see that. As I understand it, a face cord is basically whatever amount of wood you want to charge a given price for


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Dec 15, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Even for crappy, punky wood, 75 clams aint enough
> 
> I realize we're a helluva long ways away from each other but around here 1 cord of Larch is usually between 180.00 and 200.00 ( I was selling for 180.00 this past summer and was told by my buyers that I was on the low end of the price range) a cord of Doug fir is usually 170.00 to 180.00. Even piss fir and spruce go for more than 100.00 a cord





madhatte said:


> He did say "face cord" but who uses that weird unit?



Everyone here uses "face cord" as a measurement. I keep having to remind myself that the "full cord" is the common way of measuring outside my area (southern Ontario, Canada).

So I'm buying 13 cord loads and reselling them for $262/cord. Overall gross profit is $1200 (CAN). Total labour is 40 hours. I've got fuel and depreciation on all equipment, so I'm trying to figure out if this is better than working for a wage or not. The main advantage is being able to stop and start at any time between my other job (irregular hours) and random tasks.


----------



## Chainsaw_Maniac (Dec 15, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Ahhhh, I didn't see that. As I understand it, a face cord is basically whatever amount of wood you want to charge a given price for



I find it to be a very accurate unit of measurement, perhaps more accurate and easier to measure than the full cord. 

Again, if I here the term cord around here in reference to the 4x4x8 (full) cord, I'll ask where the person is from, and they'll tell me they are from out west or the US.


----------



## bitzer (Dec 15, 2011)

A face cord around here is 16" x 48" x 96". Its just a third of a cord (4x4x8). Split seasoned hardwood goes for around $250- $275 per cord around here. You can buy in faces around here. You can also add the option of delivery for another $25-$50. Also stacking at another $25- $50. I'm sure you could figure out a few other ways to squeeze more out too. I sell my firewood to the guys that make the firewood (if that makes any sense) per truckload.


----------



## BILLSFIREWOOD (Dec 18, 2011)

DWittenbreder said:


> If your paying for bulk logs you will never clear a profit. Firewood is VERY labor intesive and takes alot of time. Bottom line is to make any money doing firewood you must get the wood for free!!!



OK I by bulk logs. I pay $50 a cord we sale it wraped for $475 a cord. We clear abut 50% of that. This year we will do over 150 cored. we find free wood is not free, your time , trucks and not knowing you will have the wood you need, it not good.


----------



## LAH (Dec 25, 2011)

Free logs here normally dumped on my lot. I buck with a Stihl 034 that's been around a while. My splitter is a TW6. Purchased a used conveyor which takes wood from the splitter. If I need to the conveyor can load my dump should the wood need piled were the conveyor can't reach. After that I don't touch the wood. Customer loads their own. Short bed, bed level, unstacked $45, long bed $50. 

I work part time for a friend clearing for homes, building, etc. I'm in hardwood country so it is mostly oak & hickory. I get paid to cut it & haul the logs to my lot. I have a large home & burn plenty of wood. So I process all the firewood I can, burn what I need & sell the rest. Win-win for me.

I'm a small time operator but do 'bout 100 cords/yr.

Two buddys looking on


----------



## 4b316 (Jan 15, 2012)

We buy firwood logs from the local loggers.Have a 66 N600 Ford truck with a dump,hauls about 8-8 1/2 face cords of wood based on 16 inch wood.we have been paying about $18 a face cord and selling a load for $250 delivered.We haul about 2 loads a day on the average.Mostly hard maple,beech,cherry,hardwoods.


----------



## LAH (Jan 15, 2012)

4b316 said:


> We buy firwood logs from the local loggers.Have a 66 N600 Ford truck with a dump,hauls about 8-8 1/2 face cords of wood based on 16 inch wood.we have been paying about $18 a face cord and selling a load for $250 delivered.We haul about 2 loads a day on the average.Mostly hard maple,beech,cherry,hardwoods.



Is that 250 for a face cord [16"X4'X8'] or 250 per cord?


----------

