# Heat for Pole Barn...Radiant vs. Forced



## Roscoe294 (Mar 30, 2011)

I have a new 40x40x14 pole barn that I want to heat off my outdoor wood boiler. I have not put the concrete floor in it yet or insulated the walls/ceiling.

I was thinking of going with a heated floor or forced hot air. I know a heated floor is going to cost considerably more than stripping down an old house furnace, adding a heat exchanger and hooking duct work to it. I would like to know what some of you guys have done. 

The pros and cons?
Tips?
Pictures of your set up?

Again....the barn is brand new, nothing done to it. Any help is appreciated. Thanks


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## woodman6666 (Mar 30, 2011)

Screed sand, tamp sand, thick black plastic, 2" high density foam, pex tubes, pump concrete not powerbuggy over tubes, hook your tubes to header one zone valve either water goes to floor or back to boiler, very simple and you will be warm and quiet.


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## mysteryman896 (Mar 30, 2011)

I recently put radiant in my new 30x80 shop and have it running off my outdoor wood burner. 30x60 is heated, the other 20 is a separate room where my wood burner is and storage.The cost is more without a doubt but it is a much nicer heat in my option. Everything in the shop is 55 degrees when its 55 in the shop. With forced air, you may set the thermostat to 55 or 60 but the concrete is still freezing cold, metal workbench is cold, and so on. I forget what the total costs of going radiant was since i did it in steps but it wasn't cheap thats for sure. Laying on the concrete to change the oil is so much nicer now that the radiant is hooked up over the old tube heaters we used initially to heat up the place when we were doing work out there.


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## leon (Mar 31, 2011)

*heat etc.*

About your pole barn,


You will be money and heat ahead purchasing steam radiators converted for hot water use as you can regulate the heat delivered 
with thermostatic valves on the individual radiator and not waste any heat at any time. 


You can very easily secure the piping runs everywhere you want heat from the rafters or have separate zones/radiators with the expensive insulated pex tubing layed in the floor in drainage boxes used to run the 4 inch tubing to allow easy repair and installation or simply bury the 4 inch tubing in sand between radiators.


you will be able to bypass a radiator to heat separate areas if desired by installing a bypass pex line or simply heat ever 
everything at a low temp with zero issues either way.opcorn:

You can purchase reflective plastic foundation rolls to use as an underlayment from Agricultural Supplies, Fabric Structures, Equine Buildings, Grain Storage, Livestock Buildings from FarmTek and save a lot of heat from 
going into the ground and being lost.


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## atlarge54 (Mar 31, 2011)

How you intend to use the building is important------floor radiant will have some serious delay in warmup time if you don't keep the building up to temp ALL THE TIME. If the building isn't used all the time forced air might be better, or maybe a hybrid system where floor provides base heat load and forced air for quick warmups.

I've got floor radiant in my home, it's a retro-job in an older home crawl space and I think it's great. When I turn it on you can't tell a thing for about 4 hrs, if it was in a slab I have no idea how long it would take.


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## atlarge54 (Mar 31, 2011)

If you go with floor radiant---DO NOT USE BUBBLE FOIL INSULATION UNDER THE CONCRETE.


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## TFPace (Mar 31, 2011)

*Radiant*


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## Roscoe294 (Mar 31, 2011)

woodman6666 said:


> Screed sand, tamp sand, thick black plastic, 2" high density foam, pex tubes, pump concrete not powerbuggy over tubes, hook your tubes to header one zone valve either water goes to floor or back to boiler, very simple and you will be warm and quiet.



Only one loop? I was going to go with one loop for the floor heat and one for the boiler connected by a heat exchanger and bypass/shut off valves. The loop in the floor would be filled with water and a type of antifreeze (I forget the name of the stuff) in case the system needs to be shut down during the winter months



leon said:


> About your pole barn,
> 
> 
> You will be money and heat ahead purchasing steam radiators converted for hot water use as you can regulate the heat delivered
> ...



Unfamiliar with this type of heat. Never seen or heard of it. Do you have any links to it?



atlarge54 said:


> How you intend to use the building is important------floor radiant will have some serious delay in warmup time if you don't keep the building up to temp ALL THE TIME. If the building isn't used all the time forced air might be better, or maybe a hybrid system where floor provides base heat load and forced air for quick warmups.
> 
> I've got floor radiant in my home, it's a retro-job in an older home crawl space and I think it's great. When I turn it on you can't tell a thing for about 4 hrs, if it was in a slab I have no idea how long it would take.



As of right now I can say the barn will not be used everyday and would prolly be kept @ 55 degrees but cranked up to the 70's when in use.


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## cedarman (Mar 31, 2011)

wood stove:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Ive got a 40x40x15 pole barn with a go to hell homemade woodstove in there. the ceiling is tyvex paper. only half the walls are insulated.

but its warm as sh!t in there w/ the woodstove going.

sorry, I know my opinion didnt help much


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## mysteryman896 (Mar 31, 2011)

Roscoe294 said:


> As of right now I can say the barn will not be used everyday and would prolly be kept @ 55 degrees but cranked up to the 70's when in use.


 
well radiant heat is not the best option for you. you could do radiant at 55 and have a supplemental system to go to 70 when out there working like said above but it will take quite some time to go from 55-70 with radiant heat.


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 31, 2011)

"As of right now I can say the barn will not be used everyday and would prolly be kept @ 55 degrees but cranked up to the 70's when in use." 

that is one of the drawbacks of in floor radiant, it should be set and left alone. No quick warm up with it. If it was mine, I would do a few loops in the floor, I forget exactly the limit is to the length of each loop but I'm sure you could find that info on the web. You will be surprised at how nice 55 deg is, especialy when your feet are toasty.
You should be able to source the in floor pex and manifolds etc online and lay the pex yourself. Ever think about installing a lift? If you do, lay out the dimensions carefully and draw a map, don't run any pex where you will be drilling the concrete later. 
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Storm56 (Mar 31, 2011)

I built a 44x90 pole building in 2005. I used 6 inch fiberglass insulation in the walls and had a company blow in fiberglass to R-44 value above the ceiling. I heat it with 2 large hydronic heaters. Hydronic heaters are a water to air heater for those that may not know. They look like a big radiator with a fan. I keep it at 50-55 most of the time but do turn it higher now and again. I just ran a seperate zone off of my wood stove, works great!


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## Steve NW WI (Mar 31, 2011)

Floor heat's great if you're not gonna be opening big doors all the time in cold weather, but takes a long time to recover if you are. Forced air (or radiators for that matter) will bring the temp up quicker, but the floor will stay cold. Warm floors are REALLY nice when thawing out frozen vehicles.

If it was my money, I'd be putting in both. Keep the floor 50-55, and thermostat controlled forced air you can crank up as needed.

As mentioned above, if going with floor heat, plan for anything you might add in the future that will be bolted to the floor.


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## leon (Mar 31, 2011)

*barn heat*



Roscoe294 said:


> Only one loop? I was going to go with one loop for the floor heat and one for the boiler connected by a heat exchanger and bypass/shut off valves. The loop in the floor would be filled with water and a type of antifreeze (I forget the name of the stuff) in case the system needs to be shut down during the winter months
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
just google steam radiators converted to hot water and you will have a mountain of information to read you will see how simple it is to do.

All you need is to contact an architectural salvage yard and they have these radiators that have been cleaned and that can be converted to hot water easily.


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## mtfallsmikey (Apr 1, 2011)

I did a radiant system in a buddy's garage, works beautifully, but good insulation under/around the slab, inside the barn, and proper system sizing is critical. The one I mentioned was a "science project" that I got lucky on....


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## ericjeeper (Apr 1, 2011)

I have a 40x80 pole barn house. heated with a wood boiler vie 3200 feet of tubing in the concrete.
Loops lengths need to be no longer than 250 feet each.Use manifolds with adjustable flow meters and regulators. You will need some sort of mixing valve to reduce the water temps down to around 100-110°.. Use only 2 inch 250 lb rated blue or pink board.. Bubble wrap foil or any other is a joke.... Use 1/2 inch tubing not 5/8. The larger the id the thicker the wall, therefore less heat transfers.


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## scag52 (Apr 2, 2011)

I heat a 32x48 12'ceilings with a hanging heat exchanger. Keep shop @ 40* when not in there . Take it up to 65 while working. Takes about an hour to raise temp .I find it works well this way. Water is on demand so no heat loss while not using shop. I use a Ranco thermostat to control the temp. Insulation is fair at best.
Heres a pic. Can get you better pics if interested.


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## 711ac (Apr 2, 2011)

Steve NW WI said:


> Floor heat's great if you're not gonna be opening big doors all the time in cold weather, but takes a long time to recover if you are. Forced air (or radiators for that matter) will bring the temp up quicker, but the floor will stay cold. Warm floors are REALLY nice when thawing out frozen vehicles.
> 
> I have found the _complete opposite to be true_. In my old shop it didn't matter if you had a NASCAR pit crew opening/closing the door, the heat flushed out fast! That shop was *36x34x16 with 12x12 doors in MD. The new shop in Maine is 38x64x16.5 with 12x14 doors and once that mass of concrete is heated (your slab) it does not seem to really matter what you do with the doors. Obviously you can't leave them open but it (radiant) is no comparison to hot air.
> As others have said,
> ...


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## Roscoe294 (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks for all the info....keep it coming.
I appreciate it.


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## Roscoe294 (Apr 3, 2011)

I dont want to spin this thread in a different direction and want to concentrate on doing the floor correctly, but as far as the concrete slab goes.......

to use wire mesh and tie the pex to the wire or a fiber mesh and fasten pex to the foam board?


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## 711ac (Apr 3, 2011)

Roscoe294 said:


> I dont want to spin this thread in a different direction and want to concentrate on doing the floor correctly, but as far as the concrete slab goes.......
> 
> to use wire mesh and tie the pex to the wire or a fiber mesh and fasten pex to the foam board?


My slab is; poly, 2" foam, #4 rebar on 2' squares, 6"x6" mesh, 1/2" pex (with O2 barrier), "chaired up" 2" and tied. 5" pour. in that order.
I had my system designed by a radiant co. and all that I know is by following their plans. (I did the install). I had a discussion with them about placement of the pex, they basically said that it was better towards the living side of the 'crete but that overall it didn't matter that much. (if you wanted to put it down first) I just figured that it was better to put the pex in last, to avoiding dragging around all that steel around on it! Make sure that you tie it all in (your pex loops) to one big loop and put about 60psi air pressure with a guage to watch for 24 hrs. before and during the pour. And have the necessary stuff on hand in case it gets damaged while pouring.
Oh, take a ton of pictures, with reference points before you pour, and make and follow a drawing in case you need that info later, plumbing? drill to mount machinery? etc.


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## lt1nut (Apr 3, 2011)

My "shop" is 48x52 with 13' ceilings and it will have in floor hydronic heat. I plan on spending a fair amount of time and asking a lot of questions at The Garage Journal. I have a basic knowledge of hyrdronic heat but do know that in-floor needs to be set-up right; there are well-known "laws"/"rules"/equations to use in laying it all out.


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## Roscoe294 (Apr 4, 2011)

711ac said:


> My slab is; poly, 2" foam, #4 rebar on 2' squares, 6"x6" mesh, 1/2" pex (with O2 barrier), "chaired up" 2" and tied. 5" pour. in that order.
> I had my system designed by a radiant co. and all that I know is by following their plans. (I did the install). I had a discussion with them about placement of the pex, they basically said that it was better towards the living side of the 'crete but that overall it didn't matter that much. (if you wanted to put it down first) I just figured that it was better to put the pex in last, to avoiding dragging around all that steel around on it! Make sure that you tie it all in (your pex loops) to one big loop and put about 60psi air pressure with a guage to watch for 24 hrs. before and during the pour. And have the necessary stuff on hand in case it gets damaged while pouring.
> Oh, take a ton of pictures, with reference points before you pour, and make and follow a drawing in case you need that info later, plumbing? drill to mount machinery? etc.



Thats some great info
Thanks


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