# Trees co-dependant??



## pecontools (Feb 10, 2007)

I recently took down a 120 ft Black Poplar (Populus Nigra) which had a large Sycamore 80ft (Acer pseudoplatanus) on either side.

Within three weeks the Sycamores dropped their leaves mid summer and have now shown no signs of new buds coming up to spring. 

It seems these two trees have died as a result of the Poplar being taken down, however there are other Sycamore nearby that are unaffected. It is only the two nearest trees that have suffered.

I have read somewhere that different species of trees in the same locality an become co-dependant, has anyone else heard of this or can anyone explain what has happened to cause this.

Dean


----------



## BonsaiJedi (Feb 10, 2007)

What was the _Populus nigra_ taken down for? 
If the poplar was declining before removal there could be a soil pathogen responsible for the decline of all of them. It can occur where trees become "used to" an environment faciliated by another tree (such as a tree growing in the understory of another only to be shocked and burned when the over tree is removed) but I can't think of a situation a very large mature tree would be bothered by the removal of a neighbor, especially so severly that it drops leaves midseason. It seems to me there might be something else going on.


----------



## pecontools (Feb 10, 2007)

The Poplar was taken down only because it was leaning at an acute angle over a public area, there was so much leverage on the root system it had start to show signs of ground heave and when the wind blew there was significant movement.

The tree was otherwise a healthy specimen, no signs of anything untoward.

It was a clay soil and was quite wet most of the year.

The thing that amazed me was the sudden leaf drop, turned brown within a week or so then leaves off within three.

I did read, and I think it was in an Alex Shigo book, about co-dependancy in cirtain circumstances.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 10, 2007)

Could just be coincidence.

Could be sunburn damage too, seeing the time in summer you mentioned...

http://www.mdvaden.com/sunscald.shtml

Quick exposure to hot sun can do some damage.

Soil can dry out much quicker too.

So the co-dependent is realistic in some ways.


----------



## Zac (Feb 19, 2007)

*Root damage*

Did you grind the stump? Maybe you grinded some sycamore roots, or if you put garlan or some type of stump killer, a root-graft might trasnfer to the sycamore. I have heard of this happening to oaks by putting garlan on cut buckthorn.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 19, 2007)

Did you use power equipment to take the trees down? 
Could there have been a fuel or other chemical leak?

There was an insurance claim around here a couple years back where a guy delivering softener salt got his truck stuck. He used bags of salt to free his truck. 
Turns out after tissue testing on dead trees, it wasn't the salt. The trees died of Carbon monoxide poisoning, from the trucks exaust! He sat for over an hour waiting for a tow truck.
Still air, middle of winter, evergreens, heat rises.
Full replacement value on 2 - 60 foot arboriviteas, paid to homeowners.

When you find the answer, you'll be hitting yourself on the forehead with the palm of your hand.


----------



## pecontools (Feb 24, 2007)

All equipment was well away from the trees.

The poplar was leaning alarmingly from vertical at about 30 degrees. We climbed the tree and attached straps high up in the tree, to which we attached two landrover mounted winches. We then put a felling cut in and winched the tree to vertical and then over toward the landrovers which obviously had to be more than 120ft away. There was a heavy breeze.

No stump killer was used and the stump wasn't ground. 

I live in Northern England so the weather doesn't get hot enough to burn the tree. 20 degrees celcius is good for here and because the tree was leaning it wasn't really shading the two Sycamores.

There was an English Oak very close by which was unaffected.

It really has got me gob smacked.


----------



## elmnut (Mar 10, 2007)

Sycamore anthracnose maybe? A leaf fungus that will cause the leaves to turn brown and drop off. Usually the tree will put out a second set of leaves, not always though.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 10, 2007)

Could there be an underground gas line that was ruptured by the felling or root heave?

Mattheck did calculations that showed that it is possible for roots in a storm to exert enough force to move pipe.


----------



## BonsaiJedi (Mar 12, 2007)

elmnut said:


> Sycamore anthracnose maybe? A leaf fungus that will cause the leaves to turn brown and drop off. Usually the tree will put out a second set of leaves, not always though.



SA is not a lethal disease. It can, after years of repeated infection, make a tree more susceptible to other agents but does not kill a tree out right on its own. Certainly not enough to kill a tree this quickly.


----------



## elmnut (Mar 12, 2007)

Just something to ponder, sometimes people think a tree has died because the foliage dropped early or was eaten by something. I look at at least on Larch every fall that suddenly "died".


----------



## ADDA (Mar 14, 2007)

Obviously there are usually other signs as well, but the leaves turning brown and tree defoliating sounds like Armillaria Ostoyae. It would explain why it's mate went the same way? Would probably have expected the Poplar to have contracted it as well though ?????


----------



## Ekka (Mar 14, 2007)

Two Acer pseudoplatanus lost all their leaves.

Both of these trees would not have been fully shaded out by the poplar so if it were sun scald it would be localized not total.

If after you left some-one poisoned the stump it most likely wouldn't be grafted to the other two trees and most likely would have only localized killed the sides facing the stump.

Is it possible that a third party poisoned these after you left ... making it look like the removal of the poplar killed them?

In most circumstances you could say that removal of the poplar would have been beneficial to the remaining two trees giving them more light and resources.

Without pictures of the location it's hard to tell. Is it possible that some-one did some poisoning etc after you left? Maybe after you left some wise guy thought I'll kill that darned poplar stump ... sprayed the living chits out of it then it rained washing into the feeder roots of the remaining two trees. If you are going to be held accountable I'd be getting lab analysis of trees and soil.


----------



## soutz (Mar 16, 2007)

lets look from a holistic point of view for a moment. lets consider that the trees in question have a symbiotic realtionship, sharing resources, ie space, light, sharing the load of the wind the weather etc. They have been growing together for a heap of years, not moving having to co exist if not rely on the other tree. one is removed, suddenly everything changes and the more i see of this situation the more i come to believe that the tree left behind gives up.
Yes sun scald ,different wind load etc, but in the end the stress of losing the other tree in the realationship has weakened the other to such a level that it dies. we all know of old couples where one of the partners has died, and soon after the other follows for no apparent reason health wise anyway.We might say they died from a broken heart. i belive trees in the above situation do form bonds , not the same as us , but simalar. Yes i am sober writing this by the way. Read some of Mattecks work on the body language of trees, this shows conections between trees and their environment.Id love to know how many of us talk to the ones we climb, even under our breath so the rest of the crew cant hear. Just a different way of looking at it i guess.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 16, 2007)

But the two species wont graft roots.

Also he said 2 Sycamores, one each side, both with total 100% leaf drop within 3 weeks.

Sounds fishy to me, no matter what the impact of removal is upon the site those two trees have their own root system going the other way, a total loss just doesn't seem right.

If the ground got heated and the exposed area burned fair enough, but the outward sides of the two trees shouldn't have changed much.

These 2 remaining trees are 80', they cast enough shadow to look after themselves.

Sometimes decongestion helps trees too. I'd be doing some tests.


----------



## Ed Roland (Mar 17, 2007)

soutz said:


> lets look from a holistic point of view for a moment. They have been growing together for a heap of years, not moving having to co exist if not rely on the other tree. one is removed, suddenly everything changes and the more i see of this situation the more i come to believe that the tree left behind gives up.
> Yes sun scald ,different wind load etc, but in the end the stress of losing the other tree in the realationship has weakened the other to such a level that it dies. QUOTE]
> 
> Soutz, good stuff. I believe tree decline is seldom from a single overwhelming issue. Most of the time it is a proponderance of issues.
> ...


----------



## Ekka (Mar 17, 2007)

But these are two different families ... zero graft.


----------



## Ed Roland (Mar 17, 2007)

pecontools said:


> Within three weeks the Sycamores dropped their leaves mid summer and have now shown no signs of new buds coming up to spring.Dean



I miss understood. I have got to stop skimming these threads and pay more attention.


----------



## Ekka (Mar 19, 2007)

Be good to know what happened hey?


----------

