# Installing a false crotch or friction saver



## pdqdl (Nov 21, 2008)

Hopefully, we all know about remotely setting a friction saver in a tree. Pick a reason to use it, it's not important why. My problem is the practicality of the normal instructions (I only know one method, anyway), and it occurs to me that with a brain trust as large as ArboristSite, surely someone has a better idea.

Whenever I try to set the friction saver remotely, it seems that when you throw the ball over the branch you need, you always get another branch in-between the "up" side and the "down" side, preventing installation of the friction saver. _Unless you are working on a tree so open that it doesn't need trimming._

I have tried pulling the throwball back to the target branch, then lowering. Once down, re-tie the throw ball to the other end of the throwing line, raise (carefully!) back up to the branch. Lower again, trying to follow the path that the other side of the throw line took. If no branches are in the middle, then you can set the friction saver.

But what a pain! Up, down, re-tie, up, back down. Tie on rope, up, down... This takes so much time, I don't even try it unless I absolutely can't just throw a rope over the branch. Unless you just happen to be attaching to the bottom limb, it doesn't seem worth the effort.


Does anybody know a better way to do this ? Or am I just too impatient ?


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## oldirty (Nov 21, 2008)

guess it all depends how much love you got for the cambium. i dont own one personally.


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## HolmenTree (Nov 21, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Hopefully, we all know about remotely setting a friction saver in a tree. Pick a reason to use it, it's not important why. My problem is the practicality of the normal instructions (I only know one method, anyway), and it occurs to me that with a brain trust as large as ArboristSite, surely someone has a better idea.
> ......................................................................................
> For years I have used the Bigshot,very accurate even with a target 80 ft up,it can blast the shot bag through debris in the way.You say you use a throwball, use a shotbag instead does'nt bounce around. Also the bigshot eliminates the arc in the shotbag and lines path so your not getting a bunch of limbs in the way. Sometimes it takes me 5 minutes to spot a good crotch to set the friction saver in.The crotch might not be the best spot but you can re-direct or reset your f/s somewhere else when you get up there.There are tricks to isolate your throwline but I don't bother wasting the time. Once you get your line over it ,pull the bag back until it almost falls back out of the crotch let it down to the ground, if there is a limb below that may interfere with the f/s then bounce the shotbag above it until it clears. With the bag on the ground untie your bag [slipknot in anchor hitch] put the line through f/s small ring ,retie bag, pull all of line out of line bag and put that end through big ring, pull the line with f/s and bag up with it, over crotch, both rings clink together.Let bag down , remove bag ,tie eye-splice of climbing rope, pull rope up through and back down to your saddle. When time comes to remove f/s from ground, detach eye splice of rope from saddle tie square knot a foot up from eye,pull rope , knot goes through big ring ,catches small ring ,f/s falls down.There simple.


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## randyg (Nov 21, 2008)

HolmenTree said:


> pdqdl said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully, we all know about remotely setting a friction saver in a tree. Pick a reason to use it, it's not important why. My problem is the practicality of the normal instructions (I only know one method, anyway), and it occurs to me that with a brain trust as large as ArboristSite, surely someone has a better idea.
> ...


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## appalachianarbo (Nov 21, 2008)

> I have tried pulling the throwball back to the target branch, then lowering. Once down, re-tie the throw ball to the other end of the throwing line, raise (carefully!) back up to the branch. Lower again, trying to follow the path that the other side of the throw line took.



I have a throwball on each end. I attach each with a bowline on a bight girth hitched over the ring. Comes off in 2 seconds. I don't ever untie the bowline. Isolating a limb can be time consuming and frustrating sometimes. If I get really frustrated, I'll climb to the TIP SRT and then install my FS or natural crotch the TIP once I get up there.


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## randyg (Nov 21, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Does anybody know a better way to do this ? Or am I just too impatient ?



Time is money. Get rope in tree, get up there and then set friction saver to work tree from. Big shot can be helpful for those unskilled with either one hand or two handed throwbagin, but sometimes it still turns into a bit of a circus act.

If its a removal, spike up, set F saver, begin.

Sometimes I put climbing line over high crotch, and secure it with running bowline. SRT to top, tie in with flip line, set up friction saver and go to work. Depends on the job. Looking forward to more options that may appear on this thread.


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## HolmenTree (Nov 21, 2008)

randyg said:


> Before you tie your shot bag onto throw line (before you even make the first throw), pass it through the big ring of Friction Saver first. That way you don't have to "take all the rest of the line out of the bag" cuz its already through. Don't have to re-bag the entire throw line, just what you need. Cuts down on time too.
> 
> I lay the friction saver over my rope bag and let that big ring hang just over the side, right next to throw line. With the exception of an occasional knot, the line just flies through like the eyes on a fishin pole.



Good tip,but in the real world the line doesn't always come out of the bag in a straight line, you can get the shotbag up and over but you got that little loose pileup to pull out. I use the battery powered line feeder to shoot it back into the bag anyway only takes 15 seconds for 150 ft.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 22, 2008)

If i use a FS, I will access the tree with ascenders on a doubled line then set it up on the best TIP.

Quite often I will ascend on the easiest crotch then move to a better working TIP.


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## oldirty (Nov 22, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Quite often I will ascend on the easiest crotch then move to a better working TIP.




thats kinda what i do. i also climb with a troball/biner on the saddle to get better rope toss.


i had a f/s but gave it to a coworker, his rope was new at the time and one of our groundies pulled his rope without a stopper knot.....leaving his f/s in the tree. lol


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## RedlineIt (Nov 22, 2008)

Just haul up a floating false crotch, it's fast and self-isolating. Also a breeze to ascend on as it's about the most frictionless way you can go.

On easy shots where I use a normal FS, the Big Ring is long gone, cut off and replaced by a pear shaped locking carabiner, just clip it on the throw line, though I like randyg's idea of passing it through the Big Ring first, I never thought of that...


RedlineIt


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 22, 2008)

oldirty said:


> .....leaving his f/s in the tree. lol



I've *never* done that!

I usually use an FS when using a large crotch, weak bark, or sappy conifer.

On the conifers I line to use 2 stout branches as my TIP, their divergance will push the TIP into the trunk.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 22, 2008)

I just set the throw line in a good crotch then tie
it off to one end of a stable braid rope pull it over
and fasten an arborist block on the other end. I then
pull it along with climb line up to the crotch area and
tie the other end off to ascend on a block then set
it up when I arrive at tip! I use a block for a false
crotch to aid in body thrusting sometimes but really
mostly use natural for climbing and block for rigging.


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## RedlineIt (Nov 22, 2008)

> ropensaddle I just set the throw line in a good crotch then tie
> it off to one end of a stable braid rope pull it over
> and fasten an arborist block on the other end. I then
> pull it along with climb line up to the crotch area and
> ...



Yes, good description of installing the floating false crotch I mentioned above.

Also, if you've got a tree with nothing but droopy branches in your throw-ball shot zone, like a Sequoia or Red Cedar, you can tie on another rope just above the block and tie that off at your best angle to keep the whole arrangement from sliding away from the trunk.



RedlineIt


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## Ted-RI (Nov 22, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> Just haul up a floating false crotch, it's fast and self-isolating. Also a breeze to ascend on as it's about the most frictionless way you can go.
> 
> On easy shots where I use a normal FS, the Big Ring is long gone, cut off and replaced by a pear shaped locking carabiner, just clip it on the throw line, though I like randyg's idea of passing it through the Big Ring first, I never thought of that...
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that a floating false crotch, set up like this, will put 2x the load on your tie in point. I agree that it works nice but you have to choose tie-in points more carefully.


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## pdqdl (Nov 22, 2008)

I've certainly gotten some new ideas out of this thread. Especially from the floating false crotch/TIP crowd. Thank's guys! 

I'll bet there are some more good ideas floating around, too. More comments anyone ?


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## (WLL) (Nov 22, 2008)

cut off the big ring on the saver and replace it with a krab.


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## (WLL) (Nov 22, 2008)

imo the rope guide is a better tool


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## senechal (Nov 22, 2008)

randyg said:


> Time is money. Get rope in tree, get up there and then set friction saver to work tree from.



I've argued this point with guys at work a few times. They insist it's faster to take a mediocre shot and install a rope immediately and recrotch 10 times to a final tie-in over taking time to cherry pick a final tie in from the ground. Limb humping is exhausting and looks amateur, and fighting natural crotch friction is really annoying when you're used to a cocoon or friction saver. Believe me, I am not doing it for the cambium. Plus, if you're running a double braid 11/11.3/11.7mm climbing line, you are going to trash your rope quick. The key for me was learning from guys that had throwline fishing skills -- there are all kinds of tricks to take a garbage throw and turn it into the best TIP possible, isolated and friction saver installed. Swings, flips, 2 line technique, midline shotpouch manipulation, 2nd shotpouch on running end, stick tricks, stick flips, snagging loops, you name it.

Big shot is nice, but for me personally, dialing in the throwline in general is time well spent. Some days you have to cut yourself off and fall back on old standby.


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## (WLL) (Nov 22, 2008)

ill do a lot of my removals using the throw-line too get my lowering line set first and than i start hooking up the trunk taking limbs on my way to the top.


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## SLlandscape (Nov 22, 2008)

oldirty said:


> thats kinda what i do. i also climb with a troball/biner on the saddle to get better rope toss.
> 
> 
> i had a f/s but gave it to a coworker, his rope was new at the time and one of our groundies pulled his rope without a stopper knot.....leaving his f/s in the tree. lol



My guy did the same thing last week, except he did not tie a single knot just pulled it through. Took me about 5 min. to get it down from its' 35-40 ft spot.


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## rbtree (Nov 23, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> cut off the big ring on the saver and replace it with a krab.



I've long since dispensed with ring/ring friction savers. I use adjustable ones, biner and pulley on one side, prussic on other side with large biner.....

In transit from my splicer Nick is 5 lines for the crew and a friend....4 Blaze and a Tachyon.....and a 48 inch f/s...which will complement my two shorter ones nicely. 

Nice, and way cheaper than a RG, or the knockoff RG that Sherill sells. Plus the hardware can be removed and used for other tasks if need be.


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## RedlineIt (Nov 23, 2008)

> Keep in mind that a floating false crotch, set up like this, will put 2x the load on your tie in point. I agree that it works nice but you have to choose tie-in points more carefully.



Ted-RI,

True! Must always be considered and should always be noted on a forum like this where there are who knows how many lurkers gleaning ideas for their next climb. Good catch, Thanks!



> I've long since dispensed with ring/ring friction savers. I use adjustable ones, biner and pulley on one side, prussic on other side with large biner.....



rbtree,

I also home-brewed a rope guide, but haven't found an affordable, reliable splicer, so mine are cinched down with Double fisherman's loops, which increase their snaggabilty in tighter crotches upon release...other than that, same idea, the micro-pulley acts as the small ring.

Question: Do you ever use yours on spar work, with your RG prussic adjusted to keep about 2"-3" gap between the big end 'biner and the small end micro-pulley, with your climbing system pre-attached and acting as the slack as you spur up and advance this whole she-bang just under your lanyard?

The concept is you have an immediate escape route if you have to bail for any reason from hornet/wasp attack ,to a non-incapacitating injury, to your groundie needing immediate 1rst Aid, to experiencing an earthquake while on a spar.

It's also supposed to make gaffing out a mere inconvenience, and make an assisted aerial rescue of an incapacitated climber on a spar a much easier job for the rescuer.

I've tried it, and honestly both your gaffs could break simultaneously and you're not going anywhere but a 6" drop onto your Ddrt system.

First time I used it I found it a bit of a PITA, but as I got used to it, like anything new, I started to get the feel for it and get a method down. 

Any one else try this system?


RedlineIt


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## senechal (Nov 23, 2008)

there is a push around here to get climbers off of the double lanyard and onto choking friction savers or similar custom adjustable ring n rings, or at the very least a choking running bowline to grigri or ID SRT safety on spar operations. 

I find that in addition to the key benefits of rescue (self or otherwise) capabilities, it makes big wood or tough angles a lot more comfortable and easy. 

Set a tail from your friction saver prussik or choking running bowline to grigri and drop down to your next position. Lanyard in, make notch in the comfort of your overhead tie in, then drop your safety to above your block and commence backcut. Thus taking a lot of pressure off the usual spur pressure points, and eliminating climbing aid stubs entirely.

Like any new gear or technique, people are slow to embrace it even within a company with crews that insist on said techniques and gear.


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## senechal (Nov 23, 2008)

Oh and Redlineit, Andrew Fredrikse is your splicing source in Canadian dollars and as far as shipping I'm sure he could be enticed. He does all splicing for Commercial Solutions (CFE) and private splicing for a growing list of arborists around these parts. Tight eyes on adjustable ring n rings, double braids, all that good stuff. PM me if you need his contact.


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## D Mc (Nov 23, 2008)

Ted-RI said:


> Keep in mind that a floating false crotch, set up like this, will put 2x the load on your tie in point. I agree that it works nice but you have to choose tie-in points more carefully.



I understand why this statement comes up. Unfortunately, it has the affect of preventing people from trying this method due to the fear that statement creates. In the real world of using this technique, there are many benefits. 

First it is a very fast system to set, requiring only one end of the line for isolation. The other end of the line will be, almost without exception, routed over many different backup branches. When you set an individual friction saver or rope guide over a single tie in point, if that breaks you are SOL. On the floating false crotch, if you have set it up properly, it will just fishing pole down to the next crotch. 

Also you will never get your friction saver stuck on retreival. I use this system frequently. Ascending the line in SRT, lanyarding in, having my floating false crotch/pulley hauled up to my TIP, reanchor the tie in point rope via Port-a-wrap and go to work doubled rope technique. This allows me to examine my chosen TIP prior to working and make adjustments if necessary. Also ascending on the frog walker system is MUCH smoother on the tip than footlocking or hip thrusting. 

Just some more thoughts to be considered for an informed decision.

Dave


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## pdqdl (Nov 23, 2008)

D Mc said:


> ...
> First it is a very fast system to set, requiring only one end of the line for isolation. The other end of the line will be, almost without exception, routed over many different backup branches. When you set an individual friction saver or rope guide over a single tie in point, if that breaks you are SOL. On the floating false crotch, if you have set it up properly, it will just fishing pole down to the next crotch.
> 
> ...
> Dave



I was thinking those exact thoughts, although I have yet to try out this technique. I had some other thoughts as well:
1. The line holding the false crotch is not "actively used" by the climber or the groundies, and could get ignored at a critical moment. I always fear whoever is below me, and I would be afraid to let them near my main support.

2. It subjects the climber to much greater risk from cutting the line that holds him. At least in theory, the supporting line will always extend somewhere to the ground, rather than being isolated above the climber and the saw, increasing the number of feet of critical rope being used, and thereby increasing the probability of an accident.

3. If a large tree section managed to snag the middle of the tied off line, the climber could be yanked upward or break off the branch supporting the false crotch. 

I'm sure that this method has many uses, but I suspect that it will not ever become my primary technique to work in a tree. I'll be sure to experiment and learn more about it, however.


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## D Mc (Nov 23, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> I was thinking those exact thoughts, although I have yet to try out this technique. I had some other thoughts as well:
> 1. The line holding the false crotch is not "actively used" by the climber or the groundies, and could get ignored at a critical moment. I always fear whoever is below me, and I would be afraid to let them near my main support.



This is a common concern I hear often. But on the other hand, if you fear their ability to stay away or not entangle your support line, would you be able to trust those same groundmen to perform a complex aerial rescue? Truly most aerial rescues are beyond the scope of your average groundman. With the floating false crotch tied off to a Port-a-Wrap, a ground based rescue can be initiated immediately after removing the secondary lanyard, as necessary.



> 2. It subjects the climber to much greater risk from cutting the line that holds him. At least in theory, the supporting line will always extend somewhere to the ground, rather than being isolated above the climber and the saw, increasing the number of feet of critical rope being used, and thereby increasing the probability of an accident.



This does require some reassessments of cutting techniques and a vigilance that should be there already. I can't believe how many climbers are constantly cutting and nicking their lines, even with their hand saws. Even without the floating false crotch, your climbing lines are always right in front of your lap where a lot of the cutting takes place. For the floating false crotch line, use a bright and different color from your other lines. This will help keep everyone aware of what is what. 



> 3. If a large tree section managed to snag the middle of the tied off line, the climber could be yanked upward or break off the branch supporting the false crotch.



True. Don't do that.



> I'm sure that this method has many uses, but I suspect that it will not ever become my primary technique to work in a tree. I'll be sure to experiment and learn more about it, however.



I will encourage you to experiment with it. We are of similar ages. My primary reason for starting with this system was for a ground-based rescue. I have been injured enough times to not be too concerned about getting myself to the ground. I have done so in the past. However, I have never experienced a stroke or heart attack. My ability to handle those is an unknown. And they can happen. 

An aside from this, I have found I really enjoy its simplicity and flexibility in setups. I initially fumbled around quite a bit but once I got the hang of it, it is actually faster with less effort than many other setups. 

Dave


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## pdqdl (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks for hammering it into my head. 

I was trying to figure out why you wanted to use the port-a-wrap, since it only increases the risk of coming loose. Now if you needed to be lowered from the TIP, that explains it all. Somehow, I wasn't seeing that.

I guess I am too rigid in my thinking. Being incapacitated never crossed my mind, much less trusting the groundies to do it reliably. I just make sure they have a phone and know how to dial 911. Our ground crews leave much to be desired, but I am constantly working on improving them. 

And no, there is no chance whatsoever that my ground crew could pull off an aerial rescue, unless I was on the ground helping one of my climbers (usually the case, if I happen to be on the job).


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## ropensaddle (Nov 23, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Thanks for hammering it into my head.
> 
> I was trying to figure out why you wanted to use the port-a-wrap, since it only increases the risk of coming loose. Now if you needed to be lowered from the TIP, that explains it all. Somehow, I wasn't seeing that.
> 
> ...



I usually re-tie once I reach tip as I have a problem trusting
most ground dudes too:Eye: I have sometimes felt if it was
not for our compassion they would starve


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## Ted-RI (Nov 24, 2008)

D Mc said:


> I understand why this statement comes up. Unfortunately, it has the affect of preventing people from trying this method due to the fear that statement creates. In the real world of using this technique, there are many benefits.
> 
> First it is a very fast system to set, requiring only one end of the line for isolation. The other end of the line will be, almost without exception, routed over many different backup branches. When you set an individual friction saver or rope guide over a single tie in point, if that breaks you are SOL. On the floating false crotch, if you have set it up properly, it will just fishing pole down to the next crotch.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of it. I just wanted to mention it.


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## pdqdl (Nov 24, 2008)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it appeals to me. 

So far, I have zealously avoided SRT, and will probably continue that pattern. I don't have all the right toys, my lone ascender got stolen recently, and I'm getting quite a bit too soft to drag my lard butt up a tree on a single line without the right toys.


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## D Mc (Nov 24, 2008)

PDQDL, you are absolutely right in avoiding SRT without the proper tools. I tried mickey-mousing it several different ways with never getting it to work. Finally purchased the recommended parts and, Oh what a difference! Once you get it dialed in it is, literally, as easy as walking up a ladder. 

But just as true, the floating false crotch, doesn't have to be used with the SRT. It works very well with the doubled rope technique. 

Dave


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## ropensaddle (Nov 24, 2008)

Well my technique has changed somewhat but I install the pulley
the way I described earlier and tie my climb line off to my buckets
winch and take an elevator ride lol. The wife just kills the truck 
on my hand signal and I go up a little more to slack her end she
unties when I am tied in! I know it sounds crazy but it works so
eazy, effortless ascent!


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## pdqdl (Nov 24, 2008)

That's cheating. I'm gonna call ANSI & OSHA. I'm tellin !

If I trusted my groundies, I could always put my gas powered rope winch on the job and ride my own elevator up. Thank goodness I _don't_ trust them, eh?


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## ropensaddle (Nov 24, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> That's cheating. I'm gonna call ANSI & OSHA. I'm tellin !
> 
> If I trusted my groundies, I could always put my gas powered rope winch on the job and ride my own elevator up. Thank goodness I _don't_ trust them, eh?



That is the good thing about owing money my wife can't afford 
to let me go


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Nov 25, 2008)

Yea ! But she could forget to stop on your signal ! Life Insurance would pay off the debts & allow for a winter vacation in Hawaii !:jawdrop:


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## ropensaddle (Nov 26, 2008)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> Yea ! But she could forget to stop on your signal ! Life Insurance would pay off the debts & allow for a winter vacation in Hawaii !:jawdrop:



:hmm3grin2orange: I can't afford it yet so very careful I have to be
one slip and :jawdrop: She is very trustworthy been tested well;better
than half the young boys these days at working ethic


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