# Best way to sharpen for your 200t



## brandongunn2003 (Dec 16, 2012)

I have a 200T I use exclusively for climbing. I am running Stihl 3/8 X .50 Low Profile. I have tried hand filing it. I have also tried grinding with my Silvey 510 round grinder at 25 degrees, rakers filed appropriately. I am just not getting the performance I want out of the Chain. Does any one use chisel chain, If so what machine do you file it with. Do any of the jedi masters have secrets they want to pass on. 

Thanks 

Brandon……..


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## Pelorus (Dec 16, 2012)

I only ever clamp mine in the vise on the chipper fender and hand file it, then hit the rakers as needed.
High rakers make an otherwise sharp chain cut like a dog.


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## Youngbuck20 (Dec 16, 2012)

25 degrees? I thought they called for 30-35? Not sure how big of a difference 5-10 degrees makes but maybe try making your angle a little steeper.


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## beastmaster (Dec 16, 2012)

Get rid of that low profile chain for one. I tryed it and it doesn't seem to cut aggressivly enough(I think thats how it was design to not cut.) I file all my saws and a lot of my friends saws by hand. They cut good. Make sure your doing it right. I know guys been using saw for 30 years and still can't sharpen a saw right.


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## tree md (Dec 16, 2012)

I use semi chisel stihl chain and grind it at 25 degrees as well. My saw shop will not sell full chisel in that length because of the kickback potential with an arborist saw. I have two 200t's and use them exclusively in the air. I very rarely have to sharpen a chain. I only had to grind the chain on my older 200T one time in 5 years. Otherwise I hand file and I rarely have to do that because I never use it on the ground. I usually only have to touch it up with a file every 2 or 3 months. If you don't get your rakers filed correctly it can make it cut like a dog... Or worse, make it dangerous to use in the tree (read the thread "I took a chainsaw to the face").


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## mcdc6 (Dec 16, 2012)

35 and 80 is what stihl calls for grinding


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## tree md (Dec 16, 2012)

mcdc6 said:


> 35 and 80 is what stihl calls for grinding



The specs on my stihl chains as well as the chart for my grinder call for 25.


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## deevo (Dec 16, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> 25 degrees? I thought they called for 30-35? Not sure how big of a difference 5-10 degrees makes but maybe try making your angle a little steeper.



Yep, go 30 degrees. Even says too on the stihl box. The oregon chain I use on all my other saws says to file at 25, but I do 30 my first sharpen. :msp_thumbsup:


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## deevo (Dec 16, 2012)

tree md said:


> I use semi chisel stihl chain and grind it at 25 degrees as well. My saw shop will not sell full chisel in that length because of the kickback potential with an arborist saw. I have two 200t's and use them exclusively in the air. I very rarely have to sharpen a chain. I only had to grind the chain on my older 200T one time in 5 years. Otherwise I hand file and I rarely have to do that because I never use it on the ground. I usually only have to touch it up with a file every 2 or 3 months. If you don't get your rakers filed correctly it can make it cut like a dog... Or worse, make it dangerous to use in the tree (read the thread "I took a chainsaw to the face").


 Larry that's funny, i just ran out and checked my stihl chains I use for my 200t and they all say 30 degrees! lol!:msp_tongue:


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## tree md (Dec 16, 2012)

*b*

I'll have to check mine. Not running out to the shop right now. I go mostly by the chart that came with my grinder. Some still chains call for 30, some 25 on my chart. My particular chains call for 25 on that chart. That being said, it doesn't hurt to grind them at a steeper degree. The first trick I ever learned from the old groundy I learned from was to file at a steeper angle to throw bigger chips. It doesn't hurt. I just like to keep mine in spec by the chart because they seem to last longer that way.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Dec 16, 2012)

I use full chisel chain on my 201t. I have had no problems. I sharpen all my chains to 25 degrees and they cut like a raped ape.

Certain types of wood like 25 degrees and some like 30 degrees.


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## bootboy (Dec 17, 2012)

I hand file my LP chains at 30° and run oregon vxl or stihl ps3, it works very well for me. Just remember though that raker maintenance gets over looked.


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 17, 2012)

I use lo pro most of the time on the ms200t's. I use 3/8",0.375 0.050 gauge only set at 30 degrees and 0.030 on the rakes when the chain is near new. Around 0.045 rakers on worn down cutters. 35 degrees on softer woods and 0.035 on the rakers. Around 0.050 on worn down cutters. I use Stihl lo pro and Oregon low pro. I use 3/8",0.375 square tooth full chisel half skip Oregon on large pines over 10" limbs or softwoods that need to come off fast for a horizontal drops. I use that same type of chain in full skip on hot days for live sappy pines. Never use anything but round filed. Most times if I use a grinder on any chains for the limbing saw ( witch is rare) they get touched up with a DDC file. I find that my cuts are clean, fast and efficient. 

1/4", 0.325 and 0.043 gauge chains have no place in my plan. I think they all SUCK for tree work, load up chip too fast and make for a poor slow cut in general for any tree work. On top of that 0.043 gauge eats up sprockets. I think this is why Stihl promotes it as a "fast" cutting chain so they can sell more spurs and bars. 

3/8 50 lo pro "real" kick-back chain is the only way to go IMHO.

Low kick-back chains are for beginners and new groundies.


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## imagineero (Dec 17, 2012)

tree md said:


> I use semi chisel stihl chain and grind it at 25 degrees as well. My saw shop will not sell full chisel in that length because of the kickback potential with an arborist saw. I have two 200t's and use them exclusively in the air. I very rarely have to sharpen a chain. I only had to grind the chain on my older 200T one time in 5 years. Otherwise I hand file and I rarely have to do that because I never use it on the ground. I usually only have to touch it up with a file every 2 or 3 months. If you don't get your rakers filed correctly it can make it cut like a dog... Or worse, make it dangerous to use in the tree (read the thread "I took a chainsaw to the face").



You're kidding, right? Touch it up with a file every 2 or 3 months? Do you only climb 2 or 3 times a year?

There are 4 key things with climbing saws;

1. Narrow kerf = less wood needs to be cut to get through the limb. 3/8" low pro is the way to go. Use the carlton stuff, the cutters are longer and narrower. Its the fastest chain out there.

2. forget safety chain. You won't be cutting anyhing.

3. Sharpen daily. Not once every 3 months. Angles are less important than shaprness, so long as all the teeth have the same angle, tooth length, and hook angle.

4. Most important is raker height. This is really critical on climbing saws especially. Read the BOBL raker height discussion here http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/114624.htm this is the most importnt thing you will ever read. Spend $50 on a digital angle finder like a wixey or whatever. Set your rakers at 7 degrees. Even just doing your rakers a couple times with the DAF you will learn a lot. You will see what you have been doing wrong, and the first time you run your saw after doing the rakers this way your mind will be blown.

Shaun


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## Pelorus (Dec 17, 2012)

I agree with what you posted Shaun, except for the digital angle finder thing. You can achieve excellent raker profiles just fine with your nekkid eyeball. It really doesn't have to be rocket science. I use a standard raker height guage just to get a benchmark of where things are at on a tooth on each side.


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 17, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> I use lo pro most of the time on the ms200t's. I use 3/8",0.375 0.050 gauge only set at 30 degrees and 0.030 on the rakes when the chain is near new. Around 0.045 rakers on worn down cutters. 35 degrees on softer woods and 0.035 on the rakers. Around 0.050 on worn down cutters. I use Stihl lo pro and Oregon low pro. I use 3/8",0.375 square tooth full chisel half skip Oregon on large pines over 10" limbs or softwoods that need to come off fast for a horizontal drops. I use that same type of chain in full skip on hot days for live sappy pines. Never use anything but round filed. Most times if I use a grinder on any chains for the limbing saw ( witch is rare) they get touched up with a DDC file. I find that my cuts are clean, fast and efficient.
> 
> 1/4", 0.325 and 0.043 gauge chains have no place in my plan. I think they all SUCK for tree work, load up chip too fast and make for a poor slow cut in general for any tree work. On top of that 0.043 gauge eats up sprockets. I think this is why Stihl promotes it as a "fast" cutting chain so they can sell more spurs and bars.
> 
> ...



I get confused by all those numbers -- and it doesn't help that the round-tooth grinder I bought (Carlton) came with a chart in teeny -tiny type that is unreadable for all the settings.

I'm going to copy your post and tape it to the wall!


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## brandongunn2003 (Dec 17, 2012)

I checked out that Thread. Super good info. Thanks again for all of the advice......


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## imagineero (Dec 17, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> I agree with what you posted Shaun, except for the digital angle finder thing. You can achieve excellent raker profiles just fine with your nekkid eyeball. It really doesn't have to be rocket science. I use a standard raker height guage just to get a benchmark of where things are at on a tooth on each side.



I'd say take the pepsi challenge on that one. I've tried most types of raker height guides out there; the FOP types, the stihl ones, the huski roller gauge. They're all ok, but not great. I've also tried using feeler gauges and a straight edge which is very time consuming and involves some math. The trouble with the gauges is that they aren't progressive; the rakers are going to get worse towards the end of the tooth life. The other problem is that most give you a squared topped raker. Square topped rakers are jittery/vibrate a lot in the cut. Triangle shaped rakers are bitey/grabby. A well rounded raker is smooth and will let you take the rakers lower than any other shape. 

If you use a DAF then you can concentrate purely on raker shape. The DAF method is very consistent, and lets you get perfect rakers. Try it and you'll be shocked at the difference. You really do get better than factory cutting, smooth self feeding with big chips. Your chain stays sharp longer too, because you're cutting with a larger area of the tooth. I don't use it on every raker. I use it once, on the first tooth to get the height set, then do the same number of strokes on all the rest of the teeth. Once you've been using it for a while you get your eye recalibrated from how you used to look at rakers using guides. 

It's a relatively cheap tool and has lots of other uses. 

Shaun


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## Pelorus (Dec 17, 2012)

imagineero said:


> I'd say take the pepsi challenge on that one.
> 
> If you use a DAF then you can concentrate purely on raker shape. The DAF method is very consistent, and lets you get perfect rakers. Try it and you'll be shocked at the difference. You really do get better than factory cutting, smooth self feeding with big chips. Your chain stays sharp longer too, because you're cutting with a larger area of the tooth. I don't use it on every raker. I use it once, on the first tooth to get the height set, then do the same number of strokes on all the rest of the teeth. Once you've been using it for a while you get your eye recalibrated from how you used to look at rakers using guides.
> 
> ...



I honestly don't think a DAF is gonna be either practical or necessary when dealing with a 50 DL 14" loop of chain for a MS200T. Having never tried a DAF, I'll just have to take your word on how good it is. It really isn't difficult to achieve better than factory cutting out-of-the-box performance from a chain that is hand filed, incl. the rakers. Biggest problem I have found with Stihl 0200T chains is that the rakers are high (marginally) right outta the box.

How hard is it really to maintain the proper raker profile with a flat file, without your DAF gadget???


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## brandongunn2003 (Dec 18, 2012)

What grinder do you guys use to grind your full chisel low profile chain?


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## ROPECLIMBER (Dec 18, 2012)

I use 3/8 picco Stihl no anti kickers, it has a factory bite of .026", and a cutter angle of 30 deg.and I try to keep the rakers at this .026" to keep it from grabbing to much, and usually file as needed, I have gotten good at eye balling the rakers and know if I hit a nail ot dirt in a hollow,or dirty bark after a storm,and have to take 10 strokes off the cutter I need to take about 3 strokes off the rakers, the rakers allow the cutter to make progressive contact with the wood, so if you dont bring them down to .025" or more (below the cutting edge)you can have a razor edge and still throw powder. like Larry toe 200 is not used on the ground so it usually holds an edge a while, I will throw a new chain on for a removal and not have to touch it up for a while of just trimming. the chin is 63 RM 50 , I went with the RM fast chain on it as I hate filing the double rakers.
Paul


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## imagineero (Dec 18, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> How hard is it really to maintain the proper raker profile with a flat file, without your DAF gadget???



Well, no harder than, say, filing a little metal triangle 3/16" wide to an angle of between 6*-6.5* by eye, using an imaginary line between the two teeth as a reference point to take the angle off ;-) 

Honestly, I;ve never met anyone who could do that by eye. You'd be lucky to get within 2* of being right, which is leaving a lot of cutting ability behind. I've found even the best guides only take the angle down to somewhere between 3*~4*. Some guys can get to around 4.5* by eye, or using a depth gauge. I'm constantly shocked at just how low 6.5* really is, especially towards the end of the tooth. You look at it, and think "man, that's way too much. Thats going to be awful!" But it turns out being perfect.

2* is awful. You're only throwing dust there. 3* you're cutting. 4* is where a lot of guys who think they know how to file rakers end up at, and it's not bad. You get chips. 6.5* is nirvana. You throw big chips, the saw never grabs, it self feeds. The chain stays sharp a long time. 8* is awful again. That's way too much. 

If you can accurately and consistently judge 1* by eye, then you can save yourself $50. Actually, I'll shout you a beer

Shaun


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## Pelorus (Dec 18, 2012)

I can accurately and consistently judge when I'm unhappy  with how a chain is cutting, and then hand file it by eye to where I'm happy :rolleyes2: But I do think your DAF angles and stuff are interesting and have merit.


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 18, 2012)

You guys do realize your on the way to a pissing match. Who cares what method is used. The bottom line is "what works for you". That fact that we get more than a-few people to realize how important the bi bi bi "bite is" will be the most important message conveyed here. Yes my post was wordy so people "they" get it!

Who really cares if you use the morning rising sun method of "finding the angles." Whateva works now git back in the cage.


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 18, 2012)

*grinder types*



brandongunn2003 said:


> What grinder do you guys use to grind your full chisel low profile chain?



I use a Belsaw-Foley 308 and 399.


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## B_Turner (Dec 18, 2012)

I say 25 to 35 degrees doesn't make tons of difference if the chain is sharp except really hard wood.

IMO 3/8 lp works very well on a small limbing saw. And although I try to stay away from the safety stuff, it limbs okay and I don't throw it away when it comes on a saw. I buy all new chain by the reel, but most saws come with a loop and 3/8 lp safety doesn't work that bad except for boring. ( Course I prefer non safety and that is all I buy)

And .325 nk is fine on a saw with a little more snot than a 201. And no body makes a 3/8 lp floating rim except stihl so that can affect a choice.

I know I'll ruffle some feathers, but in truth most folks I know run chains that aren't as sharp as they think. I am talking full time pros. I do mean most....

But my first thought to the OP is are you using an 1/8 inch wheel on your 510 for 3/8 lp? Should be. I have a 510 that almost always has a 1/8 wheel on it for 1/4, .325 and 3/8 lp.

In terms of performance, for me small chains cut just as well as hand filed using the 510 (including 3/8 lp). On full sized 3/8, filing for me gets them a touch faster cutting.

But I solved that problem years ago and run square ground on all my saw bigger than 50cc. Changed my world and no way I could ever put up with 3/8 round except in really dirty wood when I reluctantly get out the 3/8 semi chisel.

Best thing would be to post pics of a ground chain, that will tell us the story.


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## Pelorus (Dec 18, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> You guys do realize your on the way to a pissing match. Who cares what method is used. The bottom line is "what works for you". That fact that we get more than a-few people to realize how important the bi bi bi "bite is" will be the most important message conveyed here. Yes my post was wordy so people "they" get it!
> 
> Who really cares if you use the morning rising sun method of "finding the angles." Whateva works now git back in the cage.



It's a Pepsi challenge, not a pissing match. Anyway, as long as Shaun will admit that he is wrong, it's all good. 
Esoteric sharpening techniques are better suited for hotsaws in competitions. I rest my case...finally.


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## Naked Arborist (Mar 8, 2013)

Holy#### Batman an arrested case and the Pope retired, word.

"All big chips fly from those who sharpen often"

You limb walkers are all alike.


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