# Will Strato charged motors be less reliable long term?



## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

Given the fact they run hotter, use much less fuel and as a result much less oil.


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## MustangMike (May 16, 2015)

Don't know, but I think there are a lot of hard working 461s out there with a lot of hours and not so many problems, but time will tell.


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## blsnelling (May 16, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Don't know, but I think there are a lot of hard working 461s out there with a lot of hours and not so many problems, but time will tell.


The 461 is NOT a strato engine. The ONLY difference between it and any other quad port cylinder is where the transfer ducts begin. Port timing is no different at all. It's a standard 2-stroke in EVERY way, regardless of what Stihl marketing calls it.


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## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> The 461 is NOT a strato engine. The ONLY difference between it and any other quad port cylinder is where the transfer ducts begin. Port timing is no different at all. It's a standard 2-stroke in EVERY way, regardless of what Stihl marketing calls it.


Husky buying up Redmax was a great move because it netted them all their Strato related patents.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 16, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Husky buying up Redmax was a great move because it netted them all their Strato related patents.


 yeh and that is husky's answer to everything, buy out the competition. unfortunately it has done nothing for reliability.


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## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> yeh and that is husky's answer to everything, buy out the competition. unfortunately it has done nothing for reliability.


Redmax wasnt really much competition and it makes alot of sense business wise to do what they did.
Stihl has had reliability issues with their newer emissions compliant engines to.


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## funky sawman (May 16, 2015)

Lets just put an old oil injector in the strato intake pipe and have it setup to drink bar oil....hmmmm YEP


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 16, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Redmax wasnt really much competition and it makes alot of sense business wise to do what they did.
> Stihl has had reliability issues with their newer emissions compliant engines to.


 sorry ,i own both, sell one brand and strongly disagree. m-tronic saws are not problematic, the same cannot be said for auto-tune saws. husky's are lighter and a little quicker, but they do not hold a candle to stihl when it comes to reliability. i have 200 plus maint. techs under me here, 40 of them are small engine. i can tell you we do very little warranty work, most of the issues these days are due to operator error.


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## bikemike (May 16, 2015)

I would have to say that it all uas to do with the quality of the build and how it is broke in and lubrication and general maintenance.


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## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> sorry ,i own both, sell one brand and strongly disagree. m-tronic saws are not problematic, the same cannot be said for auto-tune saws. husky's are lighter and a little quicker, but they do not hold a candle to stihl when it comes to reliability. i have 200 plus maint. techs under me here, 40 of them are small engine. i can tell you we do very little warranty work, most of the issues these days are due to operator error.


The 661 was problematic and most Husky Autotune saws work just fine and have since day one.
I was a Stihl guy at one time till I ran a few Husky saws and realised they were a better mouse trap for a variety of reasons. Neither brand let me down reliability wise, but the Husky's always cut faster with more torque, were smoother and had better antivibe. Some of this has changed with the newer Stihls, but it took them years.


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## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

But this isn't a Stihl vs Husky thread so lets stick to the topic at hand.


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## SAWMIKAZE (May 16, 2015)

I think its funny when guys say huskys dont last as long as stihls 

Ive seen them take abuse from services like you wouldnt believe and they keep tickin .


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## Chris-PA (May 16, 2015)

I have a strato engined saw built in 2005. Probably won't hold up nlong term. 

There's probably 20% less mix passing through the case per unit time - so if that concerns you use 20% more oil, which is like going from 40:1 to 32:1. I don't worry about it at all and I've read nothing to make me think there is any reason for concern.

I also don't know where the idea that they run hotter comes from.


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## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I think its funny when guys say huskys dont last as long as stihls
> 
> Ive seen them take abuse from services like you wouldnt believe and they keep tickin .


As have I. It's about all you see being used by loggers and tree service guys up here.


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## bwalker (May 16, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I have a strato engined saw built in 2005. Probably won't hold up nlong term.
> 
> There's probably 20% less mix passing through the case per unit time - so if that concerns you use 20% more oil, which is like going from 40:1 to 32:1. I don't worry about it at all and I've read nothing to make me think there is any reason for concern.
> 
> I also don't know where the idea that they run hotter comes from.


They run much leaner and leaner equals hotter.
I have been running the snot out of a Redmax 8000 blower since the early 2000's and its never missed a beat. However, it doesn't have a compensating carb like the newer saws have. FWIW it's been on a diet of 32:1 since day one.


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## Miles86 (May 16, 2015)

Corporate use of its size to crush competition by lobbying regulators for rules that favor it's technology in the name of saving the earf. Your days of field repairing your saw are soon over. Thanks world.


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## Big_Wood (May 16, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I think its funny when guys say huskys dont last as long as stihls
> 
> Ive seen them take abuse from services like you wouldnt believe and they keep tickin .



all while running 50:1 and hardly ever any maintenance LOL


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 16, 2015)

hey look, its westcoaster90


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 16, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I think its funny when guys say huskys dont last as long as stihls
> 
> Ive seen them take abuse from services like you wouldnt believe and they keep tickin .


 i think its funny too, its funny when WC90 likes your posts.


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## CR500 (May 17, 2015)

At 32:1 I expect a long life out of my 441. I mean the 372s out there seem to benefit from that ratio

Honestly I can not say I have rebuilt many strato saw in the last couple of years that were not from operator error.


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## tree monkey (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> yeh and that is husky's answer to everything, buy out the competition. unfortunately it has done nothing for reliability.





STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> sorry ,i own both, sell one brand and strongly disagree. m-tronic saws are not problematic, the same cannot be said for auto-tune saws. husky's are lighter and a little quicker, but they do not hold a candle to stihl when it comes to reliability. i have 200 plus maint. techs under me here, 40 of them are small engine. i can tell you we do very little warranty work, most of the issues these days are due to operator error.





Miles86 said:


> Corporate use of its size to crush competition by lobbying regulators for rules that favor it's technology in the name of saving the earf. Your days of field repairing your saw are soon over. Thanks world.



agreed


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

So Husky is conspiring with the EPA to drive other *** mfg out of business?
That's rich!


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## 7sleeper (May 17, 2015)

This topic is in my eyes totally sensless. Why? Because how many saws of yesteryears are really in regular use today? Probably zilch! No one uses a 041 on a regular basis anymore. And those used in production felling all probably died decades ago. We have the same situation today, pro saws are designed for production felling and after 3-5 years of use have ended their life cycle. That a bunch of hobby firewooders are afraid that their pro saw will not last as long as the saws of the past is simply absurd. And if we advance to the last production cycles f.e. Stihl 260 or Husqvarna 353/346 we have the same situation. How many really exist after 3-5 years of production felling?
And now to the next question, who wants to still use their saw after 3-5 years of production felling and not upgrade to the next improved model?

7


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

7sleeper said:


> This topic is in my eyes totally sensless. Why? Because how many saws of yesteryears are really in regular use today? Probably zilch! No one uses a 041 on a regular basis anymore. And those used in production felling all probably died decades ago. We have the same situation today, pro saws are designed for production felling and after 3-5 years of use have ended their life cycle. That a bunch of hobby firewooders are afraid that their pro saw will not last as long as the saws of the past is simply absurd. And if we advance to the last production cycles f.e. Stihl 260 or Husqvarna 353/346 we have the same situation. How many really exist after 3-5 years of production felling?
> And now to the next question, who wants to still use their saw after 3-5 years of production felling and not upgrade to the next improved model?
> 
> 7


But that's not really what I was thinking at all. Just a curiosity if the strato designs come with a down side.
And your right, new and better designs come out all the time.


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## Pud (May 17, 2015)

Run hotter use less fuel , more holes in the bore to speed the wear up maybe ? 
And the complimentry bog that comes free with modern saws


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> So Husky is conspiring with the EPA to drive other *** mfg out of business?
> That's rich!


if husky continues on their existing path, they will run themselves out of business. and not sure about the husky design, (which is/was surely someone elses), but stihl strato engines last/run just as long as the models they replaced. as previously stated, most of the problems/failures these days are due to operator error.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Pud said:


> Run hotter use less fuel , more holes in the bore to speed the wear up maybe ?
> And the complimentry bog that comes free with modern saws


Yes they are a wide open or spudder out set up glad moto x bike didnt have strato crap. I like my pre strato saws


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> They run much leaner and leaner equals hotter.
> I have been running the snot out of a Redmax 8000 blower since the early 2000's and its never missed a beat. However, it doesn't have a compensating carb like the newer saws have. FWIW it's been on a diet of 32:1 since day one.


They do not run leaner at all. You (or the feedback system) tune them so that they are the same fuel/air ratio as any other saw. In terms of fuel/air ratio the mix that passes through the case is much, much richer than a non strato saw, although I can't see why that matters. The rich fuel/air mix arrives much later and mixes with the fresh air that is already there to yeild a mix that is adjusted to be correct. The difference is that there is much less unburned fuel blowing out the exhaust - fuel that costs you money, makes no power and damages your health when you breathe it.

There are a lot of misconceptions about how strato saws work that contribute to these concerns. I run mine on 40:1.



Miles86 said:


> Corporate use of its size to crush competition by lobbying regulators for rules that favor it's technology in the name of saving the earf. Your days of field repairing your saw are soon over. Thanks world.


I'm no fan of big corporations, but this is absurd. The emissions limits came first, and various manufacturers tried various approaches to meet them. 

McCulloch tried whining, crying and lobbying, and when that didn't work they admitted that they had invested all their money in other things than product development, so they sold their name and when out of business. 

Most did the cheapest thing and set the carbs lean, stuck limiters on the adjusters and shove a cat in the muffler. Including Husqvarna, although they apparently were working on a form of strato too.

Some smaller companies (Zenoah) actually invested in developing engine technologies to address the most basic problem of scavenging losses, and succeeded in a major breakthrough that requires no additional moving parts. But they were small and could not capture enough market share so they sold their business to Husqvarna - still, Husqvarna made an investment. Further, they invested in developing feedback carbs to address the other main culprit of puking raw fuel out the exhaust, which are the carbs that cannot hold a fixed fuel air ratio with varying rpm. 

As for repairing saws, maybe that applies to you but I'll still be working on my tools. I've ported my strato saws while preserving the strato function, and the feedback carb systems are pathetically simple.


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> yeh and that is husky's answer to everything, buy out the competition. unfortunately it has done nothing for reliability.



i'd rather run a redmax than its comparable stihl any day. they're more reliable, built better and easier to work on.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> i'd rather run a redmax than its comparable stihl any day. they're more reliable, built better and easier to work on.


Id like to try a redmax. I dont like the husky or jreds top handles they must have balanced them without the bar


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Whats a good price on a 70 or 75cc redmax. Seen one on cl looked nice too. Il check it out later and find the price on it


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

bikemike said:


> Yes they are a wide open or spudder out set up glad moto x bike didnt have strato crap. I like my pre strato saws



i'm not sure what you're trying to say here but... i suggest you try a husqvarna 575, possibly the best 70cc class saw ever built, and a strato. it has a smooth wide power band that reminds me of a saw from the 1970's.

and what chris-pa said above, stratos aren't designed to run leaner, like most modern stihls, they are designed to blow less raw hydrocarbons out the muffler by injecting fresh air in front of the charge. you can actually tune them richer. the first time i worked on one, i did a lot of head scratching. i'm still not sure what the actual or effective displacement is in a strato engine. i was sure that stratified charge was just another scam perpetrated by epa/carb. i was wrong. people have such short memories. we've forgotten when the first honda civics were introduced, 1500cc's, 50+mpg, no cat needed, abundant power, stratified charge.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> i'm not sure what you're trying to say here but... i suggest you try a husqvarna 575, possibly the best 70cc class saw ever built, and a strato. it has a smooth wide power band that reminds me of a saw from the 1970's.
> 
> and what chris-pa said above, stratos aren't designed to run leaner, like most modern stihls, they are designed to blow less raw hydrocarbons out the muffler by injecting fresh air in front of the charge. you can actually tune them richer. the first time i worked on one, i did a lot of head scratching. i'm still not sure what the actual or effective displacement is in a strato engine. i was sure that stratified charge was just another scam perpetrated by epa/carb. i was wrong. people have such short memories. we've forgotten when the first honda civics were introduced, 1500cc's, 50+mpg, no cat needed, abundant power, stratified charge.


No they not designed to run leaner just better for emissions. I did run a few different master mind husky stratos and they were nice saws i do like the older 372xp and 572 xp air injection saws they are great stock and mean modded.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

If i found someone that was dumb enough to trade my oh26 and oh34 for a bigger husky in decent shape id jump on that deal


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## Franny K (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I have a strato engined saw built in 2005. Probably won't hold up nlong term.
> 
> There's probably 20% less mix passing through the case per unit time - so if that concerns you use 20% more oil, which is like going from 40:1 to 32:1. I don't worry about it at all and I've read nothing to make me think there is any reason for concern.
> 
> I also don't know where the idea that they run hotter comes from.


If there is 20% less mix then the heat of vaporization (negative) is going to be less. It may well be less vaporization cooling in some places vs other places as well. Whether this is where the run hotter idea comes from not that I knew of the idea prior.

Personally I think the coatings in the cylinder will get better if the manufacturers choose to put as good a coating as they can on the product in question. Oils also seem to improve.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Franny K said:


> If there is 20% less mix then the heat of vaporization (negative) is going to be less. It may well be less vaporization cooling in some places vs other places as well. Whether this is where the run hotter idea comes from not that I knew of the idea prior.
> 
> Personally I think the coatings in the cylinder will get better if the manufacturers choose to put as good a coating as they can on the product in question. Oils also seem to improve.


Yeahya. I also believe the running hotter is due to tuning and maybe restrictive exhaust. All engine will perform good at a moderate temp and too hot they will lag a bit


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## Big_Wood (May 17, 2015)

bikemike said:


> If i found someone that was dumb enough to trade my oh26 and oh34 for a bigger husky in decent shape id jump on that deal



there are many here dumb enough to do that. i'm surely not one of them though. post a want to trade ad in the trader.


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## ArcticOverland (May 17, 2015)

Awww. All of you guys are cheating. You're bringing guns to a food fight. Damned facts and accurate information will ruin this thread.

Can we not all just play dumb and laugh at people who don't understand that modern technology does not automatically equal junk?

I really want to learn more from Stihlthedeere, the guy with the inside scoop on everything Hooskervarning. Guy's had some saws from them back when Bruce Willis still had a full head of hair and they obviously somehow put him on the quality control, manufacturing, R&D and strategic planning mailing lists as a result. 

Yeah, stratosaws are junk. Especially huskydoohicky jap made blah blah blah....


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## Franny K (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> In terms of fuel/air ratio the mix that passes through the case is much, much richer than a non strato saw, although I can't see why that matters.



I think this is a simple and short important piece of information that goes to answering the question in the title. There is a chance some design or designs that make it to market the clean air gets around bearings instead of the mixed air.

Some place near your strato transfer ports, the ones that pass air only it would stand to reason there is less lubrication. The guys that take these things apart probably can tell if it is an issue.


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## sunfish (May 17, 2015)

None of this really matters... Run what you want & if a particular model fails, look elsewhere.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Franny K said:


> I think this is a simple and short important piece of information that goes to answering the question in the title. There is a chance some design or designs that make it to market the clean air gets around bearings instead of the mixed air.
> 
> Some place near your strato transfer ports, the ones that pass air only it would stand to reason there is less lubrication. The guys that take these things apart probably can tell if it is an issue.


Only strato i have does run all fuel oil mix to bottom end and through the transfer port to top end the top butterfly is air only and it goes straight to top end only. That is the only strato i have worked with


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

ArcticOverland said:


> Awww. All of you guys are cheating. You're bringing guns to a food fight. Damned facts and accurate information will ruin this thread.
> 
> Can we not all just play dumb and laugh at people who don't understand that modern technology does not automatically equal junk?
> 
> ...


Spoken like a true jackass......
Judging by your post, your incapable of learning much of anything.


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

Franny K said:


> I think this is a simple and short important piece of information that goes to answering the question in the title. There is a chance some design or designs that make it to market the clean air gets around bearings instead of the mixed air.
> 
> Some place near your strato transfer ports, the ones that pass air only it would stand to reason there is less lubrication. The guys that take these things apart probably can tell if it is an issue.



the fresh air that gets squirted into the combustion area passes through slots cut in the sides of the piston, below the rings. it shouldn't affect lubrication of the top end and couldn't affect lubrication in the bearings. i'm more interested in the length and volume of the strato ports. they tend to be long and skinny in pro saws, but short and more direct in the cheap poulans. the difference is that in a husky the air is injected below the intake port and the ports (conduits?) snake up the sides to the combustion area. poulans inject the air above the carburetor at about the same level as the strato outlet in the side of the cylinder, making the conduit much shorter, with no way to utilize a standing wave or resonance. the poulans will rev to maybe 10,500rpm. a good husky strato will bump on its limiter at 12,500rpm.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> i'd rather run a redmax than its comparable stihl any day. they're more reliable, built better and easier to work on.


Me too, point me to the nearest servicing dealer. Oh snap..........


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Me too, point me to the nearest servicing dealer. Oh snap..........



if you're depending a your stihl dealer to keep your saws running, you're in deep weeds. the hombres in my village bring me their stihls after they get them back from the "sevicing dealer." i'ts usually the guys who've been "serviced."

peace


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## ArcticOverland (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Spoken like a true jackass......
> Judging by your post, your incapable of learning much of anything.



Written, not spoken. You're, not your.

How about putting to one side your rampant brand bias and try to learn something new instead of turning to juvenile name calling? 

The BS you write on the whole Stihl versus everything else thing is incredibly tiresome. It's boring and imparts nothing more than the impression you're happy to remain ignorant.

Are you not a bit crusty to be such a hardcore fanboy?


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> the fresh air that gets squirted into the combustion area passes through slots cut in the sides of the piston, below the rings. it shouldn't affect lubrication of the top end and couldn't affect lubrication in the bearings. i'm more interested in the length and volume of the strato ports. they tend to be long and skinny in pro saws, but short and more direct in the cheap poulans. the difference is that in a husky the air is injected below the intake port and the ports (conduits?) snake up the sides to the combustion area. poulans inject the air above the carburetor at about the same level as the strato outlet in the side of the cylinder, making the conduit much shorter, with no way to utilize a standing wave or resonance. the poulans will rev to maybe 10,500rpm. a good husky strato will bump on its limiter at 12,500rpm.


Yeah thats all i think my crapsman turns now that it isnt so lean. It use to screem but took 10 min to warm up


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

ArcticOverland said:


> Written, not spoken. You're, not your.
> 
> How about putting to one side your rampant brand bias and try to learn something new instead of turning to juvenile name calling?
> 
> ...


Not a fanboy, just a good dealer who knows and sells the best. And not calling names,just stating the clearly obvious. Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> if you're depending a your stihl dealer to keep your saws running, you're in deep weeds. the hombres in my village bring me their stihls after they get them back from the "sevicing dealer." i'ts usually the guys who've been "serviced."
> 
> peace


I think I am in pretty good shape here. We service everything we sell, and do a damn good job of it as well.


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## SAWMIKAZE (May 17, 2015)

Stihl and husqvarna are about 50/50 with services here..probably favors husqvarna a smidge.

As far as landscapers go , stihl products arent popular at all , the ones i know you couldnt give them a stihl blower/trimmer..they all run echo/shindawia..some redmax blowers

Stihl marketing..gotta love it


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## big t double (May 17, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Stihl and husqvarna are about 50/50 with services here..probably favors husqvarna a smidge.
> 
> As far as landscapers go , stihl products arent popular at all , the ones i know you couldnt give them a stihl blower/trimmer..they all run echo/shindawia..some redmax blowers
> 
> Stihl marketing..gotta love it


Yup...give Ice Cube a prize, or a rubber cookie. no *** manufacturer markets better than Stihl. Even landscapers in our area are figuring out that the 4-mix trimmers and blowers are...junk...for lack of a better term. They will put new pistons and cylinders on old fs80/85's before they buy a new 90/110/130. A lot are running echo and red max back pack blowers now. Sure...you'll save some fuel running a br600, but it won't last long enough to recoup the savings. Thank god we deal Toro too...the only Z on the market that matters!!


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## nitehawk55 (May 17, 2015)

ArcticOverland said:


> Written, not spoken. You're, not your.
> 
> How about putting to one side your rampant brand bias and try to learn something new instead of turning to juvenile name calling?
> 
> ...



Actually it is "your" in that case . "You're" is "you are".

Won't be any issues , take care of your saw , don't use it beyond it's limits and ran a good clean oil mix . Personally I think 32:1 is too rich (except for real HD use) 40-50:1 should be fine .


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

nitehawk55 said:


> Actually it is "your" in that case . "You're" is "you are".
> 
> Won't be any issues , take care of your saw , don't use it beyond it's limits and ran a good clean oil mix . Personally I think 32:1 is too rich (except for real HD use) 40-50:1 should be fine .


 I never pick a fight/ argument with an idiot, it is a losing battle. Please don't hold the fact that he can't spell against him as well.


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## ArcticOverland (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not a fanboy, just a good dealer who knows and sells the best. And not calling names,just stating the clearly obvious. Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........



Ah, that explains a lot then. Your posts should come with a consumer warning that you are in fact a Stihl dealer, especially those where you try to detract from the features and benefits available to a user from another brand or marque. You can't avoid the bias.

I pick Husqvarna as I've only had great experiences with their products. My local dealer is great to deal with, carries Stihl, Echo and Husqvarna and doesn't push one over the other. I'm lucky, I get to have what I want, how I want it.

My experience so far with my strato engined saws has been superb. All of the BS aside, there's nothing to even hint to me that the AT equipped strato'd saws will have a shorter lifespan or require more input in parts, time and aggravation. I'm really loving the benefits this newer tech offers and I'm glad I don't have to listen to brand based crap when I want a new saw or need some parts. Stihl have some great saws, but they don't float my boat. I'm glad my dealer doesn't feel the need to shove his commercially focused brand choice down my neck.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not a fanboy, just a good dealer who knows and sells the best. And not calling names,just stating the clearly obvious. Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........


DEPENDING on where your at mn gtg had many jreds and husky saws it was about a 40.1 ratio between husky jreds vs stihl. I have 2 stihls 2 echos a couple poulans and im not bias of brands. But id trade my 026 and o34 for a bigger decent husky 372 or 572 just cause stock to stock i think the husky is a fast cut vs the stihl. But i can agree that the stihl has a longer run period than husky. Like i said im not bias il run what runs and starts everytime


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## ArcticOverland (May 17, 2015)

Judging by *your *post, *you're.....
*
If you're going to correct me you would be well served to check your grammar carefully.

What was that bit about arguing with an idiot? 
*
*


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## windthrown (May 17, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> The 461 is NOT a strato engine. The ONLY difference between it and any other quad port cylinder is where the transfer ducts begin. Port timing is no different at all. It's a standard 2-stroke in EVERY way, regardless of what Stihl marketing calls it.



BULL SHIIT!

Since they are lifting he safeties on this site and it is going to shyte, I may as well become a troll here. They are exhaust strato saws, regardless of Brad's complete ignorance on the matter.


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## blsnelling (May 17, 2015)

windthrown said:


> BULL SHIIT!
> 
> Since they are lifting he safeties on this site and it is going to shyte, I may as well become a troll here. They are exhaust strato saws, regardless of Brad's complete ignorance on the matter.


'bout time you showed up! I would ask you to enlighten us, but you'd just regurgitate some more Stihl marketing propaganda, that you can't seem to see through. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. Stupidity is having the knowledge and still refusing to see the truth.


----------



## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

nitehawk55 said:


> Actually it is "your" in that case . "You're" is "you are".
> 
> Won't be any issues , take care of your saw , don't use it beyond it's limits and ran a good clean oil mix . Personally I think 32:1 is too rich (except for real HD use) 40-50:1 should be fine .


Im a 40.1 man with all the 50.1 logo saws and equipment plugs and screens is a small price to pay vs engines


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Wow this is almost like the jerry springer show. Common guys cany we all get along. Every saw ever built is the best in its class like the auto industry


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

big t double said:


> Yup...give Ice Cube a prize, or a rubber cookie. no *** manufacturer markets better than Stihl. Even landscapers in our area are figuring out that the 4-mix trimmers and blowers are...junk...for lack of a better term. They will put new pistons and cylinders on old fs80/85's before they buy a new 90/110/130. A lot are running echo and red max back pack blowers now. Sure...you'll save some fuel running a br600, but it won't last long enough to recoup the savings. Thank god we deal Toro too...the only Z on the market that matters!!



i have a stihl fs250 trimmer to fight 6 acres of weeds. i bought it used from my local stihl dealer. someone had left it for a carb rebuild or something, likely due to ethanol. the poor guy couldn't afford to get it back and had to leave it, probably bought a smaller one before he left. actually he was lucky. the tech had done an incompetent job, obviously didn't have a clue about the weird carb that came on that model. it has single mixture adjustment where the idle speed adjustment is supposed to be, not a needle, about 8mm long and maybe 1.5mm wide, rounded on the end, and to make things just a little harder to figure out, left handed threads, no idle speed adjustment, pain in the ass, german engineering. took me a while to figure things out. also the throttle cable was adjusted so it would only open to half throttle. that being said it is well built and has good power.

the dealer is a friend but i have seen him give guys the "chingas" on multiple occasions. typical, a guy brings in his 039 after leaving gas in it all winter, needs a carb rebuild. the dealer estimates repairs at $50 under replacement price for a new 390. the hombre brings the 039 to me. i charged him $50, $20 for parts, $30 for labor. i witnessed the same scam with an 038 magnum. saw it unfold in the shop. i wanted to take the guy outside and have a talk with him but like i said the dealer is a friend. the customer, a contractor, bought a new saw but was smart enough to leave with his 038.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

ArcticOverland said:


> Judging by *your *post, *you're.....
> *
> If you're going to correct me you would be well served to check your grammar carefully.
> 
> What was that bit about arguing with an idiot?


I could care less about spelling, your the clown that went on a rant about my post. This is a public forum, if you don't like what is posted, ignore it or move on, simple as that. And still stand by my post, not arguing with an idiot. I guess I screwed up. I see you have been a member here for a whole 6 months, not sure why I even replied to any of your jabs. I am guessing you are one of the juveniles from the other site, sent over here to stir the pot. No matter to me, the ignore button here is a nice feature, your posts are meaningless to me anyway. Maybe someday you will get to play with big boys, just not today........


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

windthrown said:


> BULL SHIIT!
> 
> Since they are lifting he safeties on this site and it is going to shyte, I may as well become a troll here. They are exhaust strato saws, regardless of Brad's complete ignorance on the matter.


Cause I am sure you have worked on a few more 461's then Brad has?


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Sounds like a few people need to go back to the doc and get a med check update or manopause is kickin in. Thats when you know your getting old lol


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## ArcticOverland (May 17, 2015)

Ah, yes, a measly 6 months here. What was I thinking! How dare I point out that you're full of bias and dare to disagree with you! I take umbrage at my own posts. The bare faced cheek of me. 

How about you go back to comparing the feature set of 1983 Stihl saws to whatever you want to piss on today, eh? It'd be a better use of your time and might stop this nonsense before you do something really dumb, like suggesting I'm clearly BA or a troll from the big-bad-other-site-that-can't-be-named, just because I'm not yet tired enough of your drivel to point out that you're 'talking out of your hole'


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

windthrown said:


> BULL SHIIT!
> 
> Since they are lifting he safeties on this site and it is going to shyte, I may as well become a troll here. They are exhaust strato saws, regardless of Brad's complete ignorance on the matter.


Well, that's an old discussion here - perhaps they are, but there is little evidence in the port configuration or timing. It's hard to see how it is unconventional in any way other than that cooling dohicky under the piston. Take a look at a Tanaka Pure Fire engine for a real exhaust delayed scavenging design. 

Does Stihl actually claim the 461 is an exhaust delayed scavenging engine?

And talk about cooling and lubrication concerns!


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## Andyshine77 (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not a fanboy, just a good dealer who knows and sells the best. And not calling names,just stating the clearly obvious. Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........



You sound like a used car salesman . Keep drinking your kool-aid.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> You sound like a used car salesman . Keep drinking your kool-aid.


If it is Stihl kool-aid, gladly. That kool-aid makes my family hundreds of thousands every year. And it just keeps getting better.


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## Andyshine77 (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> If it is Stihl kool-aid, gladly. That kool-aid makes my family hundreds of thousands every year. And it just keeps getting better.



Well aren't you special. Nobody here gives a flying **** about the money you make, and I doubt anyone wants to hear about it.


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> If it is Stihl kool-aid, gladly. That kool-aid makes my family hundreds of thousands every year. And it just keeps getting better.


Speaking of chainsaws, profit and technological development - what innovations has Stihl come up with of late? That you can actually buy I mean?


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Nahh faygo pop is better


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Ok yall have a good time. Im finding food and saw related forums.


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## Franny K (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not a fanboy, just a good dealer who knows and sells the best. And not calling names,just stating the clearly obvious. Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........


You have within the last few months come on here and asked things that a good dealer wouldn't have to ask. One guy more or less commented that something seemed odd at the time. Perhaps you post stuff as what you think is community service that you already know.

I do not wish to do troll or flame. I do wonder like the ford/chevy pick up. Ford sells the most but when you add Chevy and GMC together then isn't the sum larger? How do those numbers look if everything under the whole corporate umbrella are added in. Mahindra sells the most tractors does the same logic follow Mahindra vs Deere? I am kind of curious how those numbers look broken down by size and weight of machine.


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## SAWMIKAZE (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> If it is Stihl kool-aid, gladly. That kool-aid makes my family hundreds of thousands every year. And it just keeps getting better.



Are you hiring ?


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

Franny K said:


> You have within the last few months come on here and asked things that a good dealer wouldn't have to ask. One guy more or less commented that something seemed odd at the time. Perhaps you post stuff as what you think is community service that you already know.
> 
> I do not wish to do troll or flame. I do wonder like the ford/chevy pick up. Ford sells the most but when you add Chevy and GMC together then isn't the sum larger? How do those numbers look if everything under the whole corporate umbrella are added in. Mahindra sells the most tractors does the same logic follow Mahindra vs Deere? I am kind of curious how those numbers look broken down by size and weight of machine.


ahh, perhaps indeed


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## fordf150 (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........


Sthil is the best at marketing. Everything else is in the eye of the beholder. Nobody can argue that Stihl has done the best at marketing their product


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Are you hiring ?


Always looking for GOOD help. But we take good care of our employees, and have very little turnover.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Well aren't you special. Nobody here gives a flying **** about the money you make, and I doubt anyone wants to hear about it.


You are right, one guy's success, breeds another's jealousy.


Hey look, its WC90!!!!!!


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## .404 (May 17, 2015)

The stratos are holding their own no doubt abut that. Less fuel consumption is true, but your concerns about less oil are unfounded. 50:1 is the same no matter what. The ratio doesn't change. Check your math....


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

.404 said:


> The stratos are holding their own no doubt abut that. Less fuel consumption is true, but your concerns about less oil are unfounded. 50:1 is the same no matter what. The ratio doesn't change. Check your math....


That's the problem with some of the analytical crowd here. Simple math is above their thought process


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Good talkin about cool stuff like saws again


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Well, that's an old discussion here - perhaps they are, but there is little evidence in the port configuration or timing. It's hard to see how it is unconventional in any way other than that cooling dohicky under the piston. Take a look at a Tanaka Pure Fire engine for a real exhaust delayed scavenging design.
> 
> Does Stihl actually claim the 461 is an exhaust delayed scavenging engine?...



I checked the website this afternoon. They never specifically claim that the 461 is a strato but do claim that it has some sort of low emission engine. Has anyone seen a 461 carb? Does it have two throttles, one for fresh air? I suspect that Stihl can't employ strato technology without paying royalties to Husqvarna or some other company that holds patents, and that Stihl's "technology" for achieving low emissions in the 461 is running them really lean. Doesn't Tanaka use some sort of reflected wave in the muffler to stuff unburned hydrocarbons back into the combustion chamber?


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

.404 said:


> The stratos are holding their own no doubt abut that. Less fuel consumption is true, but your concerns about less oil are unfounded. 50:1 is the same no matter what. The ratio doesn't change. Check your math....


Better fuel economy means less oil being ran through the motor. Simple math...


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Better fuel economy means less oil being ran through the motor. Simple math...


Can you enlighten us? I see the same mix going into the motor, it just does a better job of burning it?? I.E. a more efficient engine???


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> I checked the website this afternoon. They never specifically claim that the 461 is a strato but do claim that it has some sort of low emission engine. Has anyone seen a 461 carb? Does it have two throttles, one for fresh air? I suspect that Stihl can't employ strato technology without paying royalties to Husqvarna or some other company that holds patents, and that Stihl's "technology" for achieving low emissions in the 461 is running them really lean. Doesn't Tanaka use some sort of reflected wave in the muffler to stuff unburned hydrocarbons back into the combustion chamber?


The 461 has no obvious features that would make it do exhaust delayed scavenging any more than any other saw does - except for that deflector under the piston which I understood to be for cooling. It's just speculation that it is related to any delayed scavenging though.

The muffler you are thinking of was from Dolamr, which has given it up in favor of a reed valve strato system. The Tanaka was shown in a recent post about one of their string trimmers. It uses long narrow transfers exiting from the bottom of the case and feeding much higher area/volume upper transfers. The intent is clearly to fill the larger upper transfers with exhaust but prevent it from traveling back to the case due to the higher velocity in the lower transfer runners. The fresh charge will be delayed until the exhaust gets pushed out of the upper transfers. 



bwalker said:


> Better fuel economy means less oil being ran through the motor. Simple math...


Yes, but there is no evidence that this is a problem. The ratio of oil to fuel in the case at any given time is the same, it's just moving though more slowly and the oil does not wear out in there.


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> The 461 has no obvious features that would make it do exhaust delayed scavenging any more than any other saw does - except for that deflector under the piston which I understood to be for cooling. It's just speculation that it is related to any delayed scavenging though.
> 
> The muffler you are thinking of was from Dolamr, which has given it up in favor of a reed valve strato system. The Tanaka was shown in a recent post about one of their string trimmers. It uses long narrow transfers exiting from the bottom of the case and feeding much higher area/volume upper transfers. The intent is clearly to fill the larger upper transfers with exhaust but prevent it from traveling back to the case due to the higher velocity in the lower transfer runners. The fresh charge will be delayed until the exhaust gets pushed out of the upper transfers...



so what i'm hearing is that the tanaka uses a strato system that injects burnt exhaust gasses, instead of fresh air, in front of the new charge. sounds like it might work but exhaust gasses are hot and dirty. actually i suppose a good expansion chamber does the same thing.


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## Franny K (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Speaking of chainsaws, profit and technological development - what innovations has Stihl come up with of late? That you can actually buy I mean?


I can not answer that but I have read they have invested quite a bit in some research facility somewhere in the middle of the USA. How about the 4 mix like my pole saw is that late enough or did they purchase that innovation?


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## Franny K (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Can you enlighten us? I see the same mix going into the motor, it just does a better job of burning it?? I.E. a more efficient engine???


 How about looking at it this way. Do you believe oil which dissolves in gasoline essentially condenses out in the lower end of a two cycle engine. If you believe that then more oil will condense out to do a given task (number of revolutions essentially) with the less effecient design. Then perhaps add in the heat of vaporization I noted earlier.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Speaking of chainsaws, profit and technological development - what innovations has Stihl come up with of late? That you can actually buy I mean?


Well there is 4 mix, as many love it as hate it, m-tronic that actually works well, and a few DI two strokes. I wonder what argument all the critics will have when the the pro saws all go to DI? one thing Stihl prides themselves heavily on is continually evolving/improving on the products they have. Some say they are behind in product development. I can one thing they don't do, is push a product to market years before it is ready. The 661 is a perfect example. It was years in the making. The first few on the market were pulled and immediately replaced due to a vendor issue. ALL who purchased 661's had the option to have the saw replaced until the issue was delt with. Do you think that would happen with any other brand? I can tell you this first hand, right or wrong, you don't want to be on the receiving end of a phone call from VA Beach where a customer has contact ed customer service because they feel they were not treated fairly.


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Well there is 4 mix, as many love it as hate it, m-tronic that actually works well, and a few DI two strokes.


Thank you for proving my point, as well as a few other people's points.

Stihl has never sold a 4-mix chainsaw, nor have they ever sold a saw with fuel injection (and I'd be surprised if they ever do). Also their fuel injection is not direct injection, just an injector into the case (which accomplishes little if anything). And I do not believe the M-tronic system is their development either.


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Can you enlighten us? I see the same mix going into the motor, it just does a better job of burning it?? I.E. a more efficient engine???


Its pretty simple. Saw x runs for 2 hours and burns a gallon of fuel with 4 ounces of oil in it. Saw Y runs for two hours and burns a half gallon of fuel with 2 ounces of oil in it. Saw Y had half the amount of lubrication as saw X. Of course this is a simplification for educational purposes.


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

heyduke said:


> so what i'm hearing is that the tanaka uses a strato system that injects burnt exhaust gasses, instead of fresh air, in front of the new charge. sounds like it might work but exhaust gasses are hot and dirty. actually i suppose a good expansion chamber does the same thing.


A good expansion chamber is tuned such that it rams fresh charge back into the cylinder, not exhaust.


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> The 461 has no obvious features that would make it do exhaust delayed scavenging any more than any other saw does - except for that deflector under the piston which I understood to be for cooling. It's just speculation that it is related to any delayed scavenging though.
> 
> The muffler you are thinking of was from Dolamr, which has given it up in favor of a reed valve strato system. The Tanaka was shown in a recent post about one of their string trimmers. It uses long narrow transfers exiting from the bottom of the case and feeding much higher area/volume upper transfers. The intent is clearly to fill the larger upper transfers with exhaust but prevent it from traveling back to the case due to the higher velocity in the lower transfer runners. The fresh charge will be delayed until the exhaust gets pushed out of the upper transfers.
> 
> Yes, but there is no evidence that this is a problem. The ratio of oil to fuel in the case at any given time is the same, it's just moving though more slowly and the oil does not wear out in there.


How fast the oil moves through is dictated by rpm. Maxima actually did an oil resonance time study years ago that used radioactive isotopes to determine how fast oil traveled through a running motor at a given rpm.
The fact of the matter is the strato engines are operating on less lubrication.


----------



## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Its pretty simple. Saw x runs for 2 hours and burns a gallon of fuel with 4 ounces of oil in it. Saw Y runs for two hours and burns a half gallon of fuel with 2 ounces of oil in it. Saw Y had half the amount of lubrication as saw X. Of course this is a simplification for educational purposes.


Define lubrication. From the point of view of the bearings in the case for example - they were continually bathed in the same mix ratio the whole time on both saws. Does it matter if that mix is moving through the case as fast? I'll grant that the lower flow rate of mix may effect evaporative cooling of some parts, but that is different from lubrication.


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Define lubrication. From the point of view of the bearings in the case for example - they were continually bathed in the same mix ratio the whole time on both saws. Does it matter if that mix is moving through the case as fast? I'll grant that the lower flow rate of mix may effect evaporative cooling of some parts, but that is different from lubrication.


No matter how you look at it there is less oil in the motor at a given time because less oil is being admitted to the motor. As mentioned earlier the time it takes for oil to migrate through the motor is based on rpm and is unchanged.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> A good expansion chamber is tuned such that it rams fresh charge back into the cylinder, not exhaust.


Yes someone understands that most people think it just sucks exhaust out. No they also raise compression from a rebound pressure waves


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

bikemike said:


> Yes someone understands that most people think it just sucks exhaust out. No they also raise compression from a rebound pressure waves


Which is why an agressive pipe with a high compression motor can drive you into detonation pretty quick.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Thank you for proving my point, as well as a few other people's points.
> 
> Stihl has never sold a 4-mix chainsaw, nor have they ever sold a saw with fuel injection (and I'd be surprised if they ever do). Also their fuel injection is not direct injection, just an injector into the case (which accomplishes little if anything). And I do not believe the M-tronic system is their development either.


I do know the stihl ts500i concrete saw is a injection saw fuel is pumped by crank case pressure going to a diaphragm and check system like all pumped carbs. But it is metered by temp to tune the fuel ot air ratio. It is very convenient without a choke it does start easy at 0* temp. And is responsive cold start or or properly warmed up. But it isnt a chainsaw


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Which is why an agressive pipe with a high compression motor can drive you into detonation pretty quick.


Yep. The high comp is what kills the bottom end and seized rings. Thats also why i think saws are not like a moto x bike and built way less powerful so they can get the longevity out of the engine


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Thank you for proving my point, as well as a few other people's points.
> 
> Stihl has never sold a 4-mix chainsaw, nor have they ever sold a saw with fuel injection (and I'd be surprised if they ever do). Also their fuel injection is not direct injection, just an injector into the case (which accomplishes little if anything). And I do not believe the M-tronic system is their development either.


Be prepared to be surprised then. FI is well on its way. 4 mix is their design/innovation. No matter where mtronic has come from, it is patent and it is now their's, and like it or not, it works, and works well. You ask for technology/innovation, and that is what I have for you. If you ever went to VA Beach to see the plant, I think you would be impressed by the RD dept, as well as the whole operation. Stihl has a lot invested in the US operations, and they feed a lot of families here as well. Sorry if some here see me as brand biased/ or a fanboy, but we have a lot invested with Stihl, and they have always done right by us. That is worth a bunch to my families' business.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 17, 2015)

bikemike said:


> I do know the stihl ts500i concrete saw is a injection saw fuel is pumped by crank case pressure going to a diaphragm and check system like all pumped carbs. But it is metered by temp to tune the fuel ot air ratio. It is very convenient without a choke it does start easy at 0* temp. And is responsive cold start or or properly warmed up. But it isnt a chainsaw


 not yet anyway...... at least not for sale yet.


----------



## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Be prepared to be surprised then. FI is well on its way. 4 mix is their design/innovation. No matter where mtronic has come from, it is patent and it is now their's, and like it or not, it works, and works well. You ask for technology/innovation, and that is what I have for you. If you ever went to VA Beach to see the plant, I think you would be impressed by the RD dept, as well as the whole operation. Stihl has a lot invested in the US operations, and they feed a lot of families here as well. Sorry if some here see me as brand biased/ or a fanboy, but we have a lot invested with Stihl, and they have always done right by us. That is worth a bunch to my families' business.


Four mix is hardly an innovation. Total loss lubricated four strokes were around in the 1920's and earlier..


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## .404 (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> That's the problem with some of the analytical crowd here. Simple math is above their thought process



lol



bwalker said:


> Better fuel economy means less oil being ran through the motor. Simple math...



Ratio was constant, Hotrod.

Better fuel economy means less fuel being blown into the atmosphere. Linear logic..........


----------



## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Be prepared to be surprised then. FI is well on its way. 4 mix is their design/innovation. No matter where mtronic has come from, it is patent and it is now their's, and like it or not, it works, and works well. You ask for technology/innovation, and that is what I have for you. If you ever went to VA Beach to see the plant, I think you would be impressed by the RD dept, as well as the whole operation. Stihl has a lot invested in the US operations, and they feed a lot of families here as well. Sorry if some here see me as brand biased/ or a fanboy, but we have a lot invested with Stihl, and they have always done right by us. That is worth a bunch to my families' business.


I have no doubt that many companies have new technologies on the way. Some of them have new stuff on the market too. If if's and and's were pots and pans there'd be no work for tinkers.

I asked about innovations in *chainsaws* that Stihl had developed recently and you gave me other stuff. Of course you had no other choice except to admit there weren't any.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Be prepared to be surprised then. FI is well on its way. 4 mix is their design/innovation. No matter where mtronic has come from, it is patent and it is now their's, and like it or not, it works, and works well. You ask for technology/innovation, and that is what I have for you. If you ever went to VA Beach to see the plant, I think you would be impressed by the RD dept, as well as the whole operation. Stihl has a lot invested in the US operations, and they feed a lot of families here as well. Sorry if some here see me as brand biased/ or a fanboy, but we have a lot invested with Stihl, and they have always done right by us. That is worth a bunch to my families' business.


I agree inovation sells. Me im not geek squad and computers hate me. Im a wrench turner not a button pusher, well i do push my wifes buttons but im magic when it come to older stuff. So im happy to se lots of ppl dropping there old carbed engines for new self tune items cause its more affordable for me with 7 children


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

.404 said:


> lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Better rethink that...Hotrod.


----------



## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

.404 said:


> lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bad part of that is the mn state bird will get you. mosquito


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## nitehawk55 (May 17, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Be prepared to be surprised then. FI is well on its way. 4 mix is their design/innovation. No matter where mtronic has come from, it is patent and it is now their's, and like it or not, it works, and works well. You ask for technology/innovation, and that is what I have for you. If you ever went to VA Beach to see the plant, I think you would be impressed by the RD dept, as well as the whole operation. Stihl has a lot invested in the US operations, and they feed a lot of families here as well. Sorry if some here see me as brand biased/ or a fanboy, but we have a lot invested with Stihl, and they have always done right by us. That is worth a bunch to my families' business.



Yes Stihl was always fair with dealers and end users in Canada .
Fred Whyte who was the president at VB till just recently was my boss at Stihl Canada some years back....great guy !!


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## .404 (May 17, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Better rethink that...




OK in LALA land aparrently anythang goes.....

lol


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

When are we going to be taxed for oil sling pollution? Then they will come up with carbon or graphite bar n chain powder injection too. Then after that they will make some polycarbonate 4 cycle ohc engines like the honda gcx that will have a multiple slinger application one on the cam and the crank to so they can run an engine at any angle and not run any part dry and to exclude the use of 2 cycle mix in the fuel like stihls lil pole pruner and weedwhip. Engines


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

.404 said:


> OK in LALA land aparrently anythang goes.....
> 
> lol


Don't worry, you are probaly not the only one around here that can't wrap their mind around this subject.


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

.404 said:


> OK in LALA land aparrently anythang goes.....


Finally a topic in which you can demonstrate your expertise!

And you spelled "apparently" wrong.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

This is getting better. Its not all name calling and crap. It back to saws and pollution mix ratio. This is the kinda stuff i like. One day i will be smart enough to fi d the unlike button on this site. Till then il just learn stuff from everyone here on AS


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## [email protected] (May 17, 2015)

You know what's a shame.... we probably won't see many more True zenoah designs. The old school zenoah is top notch stuff. The redmax g5000 (non strato) is a very impressive saw. Those who have them know. The gz4000 is way strong with a muffler mod. I'd be happy if all I had was their stuff. They, I'm sure, have dissapointed far fewer people than husqvarna or stihl.


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> You know what's a shame.... we probably won't see many more True zenoah designs. The old school zenoah is top notch stuff. The redmax g5000 (non strato) is a very impressive saw. Those who have them know. The gz4000 is way strong with a muffler mod. I'd be happy if all I had was their stuff. They, I'm sure, have dissapointed far fewer people than husqvarna or stihl.


I agree. I really like their designs.


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> You know what's a shame.... we probably won't see many more True zenoah designs. The old school zenoah is top notch stuff. The redmax g5000 (non strato) is a very impressive saw. Those who have them know. The gz4000 is way strong with a muffler mod. I'd be happy if all I had was their stuff. They, I'm sure, have dissapointed far fewer people than husqvarna or stihl.


Thats all Tanaka and zenoha did was specialize in 2 cycle engine design from 20cc for rc boats and cars to stand up scooters like goped and with some accessories they were a strong screemin lil motor. A 26cc engine on a friction drive no clutch scooter would get a 200lb person moving no prob


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## fordf150 (May 17, 2015)

So who had the 4 mix trimmers first? Shinny or Stihl?


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> So who had the 4 mix trimmers first? Shinny or Stihl?


Good question


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## bikemike (May 17, 2015)

bikemike said:


> Good question


I do know they were designed after the model rc plane engines saito and some other make like os


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

Let's be fair, they did develop elastostart. That's what - a bit of rubber in the starter handle? Gotta get up early to get ahead of those German engineers.


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## fordf150 (May 17, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Let's be fair, they did develop elastostart. That's what - a bit of rubber in the starter handle? Gotta get up early to get ahead of those German engineers.


Flippy caps


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## Chris-PA (May 17, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Flippy caps


"Wait a minute Fritz, I think we can add some more parts to this fuel cap!"


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## Trx250r180 (May 17, 2015)

I think in simple English what Ben is trying to get across is if both engines spin over the same amount of times use 10,000 for a number the strato saw using less fuel has has less oil on the bearings a regular saw that uses say 20% more for example will have had 20 % more oil ran through the bearings


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## fordf150 (May 17, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> So who had the 4 mix trimmers first? Shinny or Stihl?





bikemike said:


> Good question



My quick Google search came up with 2001 for both of them. Summer for Stihl and fall for shindiawa


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## redtractor (May 17, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I think in simple English what Ben is trying to get across is if both engines spin over the same amount of times use 10,000 for a number the strato saw using less fuel has has less oil on the bearings a regular saw that uses say 20% more for example will have had 20 % more oil ran through the bearings



The simple answer that seems to missed here is that the fuel savings are not from less mix (lube) to the bottom, but raw fuel not being used to push the exhaust gases out. All the mix going into the tank is for combustion, not waste.


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## heyduke (May 17, 2015)

there's been a lot of irrelevant and incoherent noise on this thread but the central question, do strato saws hold up well or fail due to poor lubrication, has mostly been ignored. my only strato is a husky 575 with a lot of hard hours on it and plenty of abuse. it's pretty much replaced all my other 70cc class saws, my 272 and even my 84cc makitas. so let's cut to the point. husky strato saws have been around for a few years. has anyone experienced a crank bearing failure? don't all try to talk at the same time!


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## fordf150 (May 17, 2015)

Quite a few big end rod bearing failures on Stihl 362....can't say if it was because of less mix passing through the case or just poor quality though


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## bwalker (May 17, 2015)

redtractor said:


> The simple answer that seems to missed here is that the fuel savings are not from less mix (lube) to the bottom, but raw fuel not being used to push the exhaust gases out. All the mix going into the tank is for combustion, not waste.


Except that the oil is deposited in the crank case prior to the fresh fuel charge being expelled out the exhaust in a traditional two stroke. So all that unburnt hc loss also leaves behind oil in the crankcase.
What's lost on quit a few is that upon entry into the motor the fuel portion of premix is vaporised and the oil portion is deposited in the crankcase.
The bottom line is a strato engine has much less oil flowing through it.


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## heyduke (May 18, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Quite a few big end rod bearing failures on Stihl 362....can't say if it was because of less mix passing through the case or just poor quality though



this is a discussion of stratified charge chainsaws. i'm not familiar with 362's. the stihl website mentiontions that they feature "m-tronic" carbs but doesn't say anything about stratified charge or even low emissions. i'm confused, but it sounds like you've worked on them. are they stratos? if so, how do they acheive stratified charge? is there a separate circuit for injecting fresh air? thanks in advance for clearing this up.


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## windthrown (May 18, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Cause I am sure you have worked on a few more 461's then Brad has?



No, because I have talked to the engineers that have designed them. Oh, but that makes me a dipshit moron here, right? Because a garage hack thinks he knows more than the Stihl engineers that designed the saws. Yah, I have heard that argument.


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## windthrown (May 18, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Well, that's an old discussion here - perhaps they are, but there is little evidence in the port configuration or timing. It's hard to see how it is unconventional in any way other than that cooling dohicky under the piston. Take a look at a Tanaka Pure Fire engine for a real exhaust delayed scavenging design.
> 
> Does Stihl actually claim the 461 is an exhaust delayed scavenging engine?
> 
> And talk about cooling and lubrication concerns!



I have posted it here several times before, to the blind it seems. Stihl calls the MS461 and the MS661 design "delayed scavenging" in their technical bulletins and emails to me, yes. From Stihl engineering: "...compared to the previous fresh air stratified two-cycle engine, the newer stratified scavenging on these saws uses exhaust rather than clean air." They say that the design of the carburetor and intake manifold are the same as those of previous conventional two stroke engine without fresh air stratified scavenging, but after the intake manifold the designs are different.

As for cooling concerns, that is exactly why they also added the 'Intake side ramp' in the crankcase. That is what the Stihl engineers call what you refer to as the 'cooling dohickey'. Its job is to shift the direction and velocity of the fuel charge for maximum cooling and lubrication. The design is not the same as the Tanaka engines. Call it what you want, but when the transfers open on the downstroke of the 461 and the 661, exhaust gases are stuffed into the transfers to create a stratified layer of exhaust gas between fuel charges. Its that simple.

Frankly I do not comprehend the bone-headed insistence about this, but WTF. Everyone is an expert here, and the Stihl engineers apparently do not know shiit about the saws that they design. Typical non-technical understanding of the world. They told us that the Tomahawk cruise missiles that we designed and built at GD would not work I the first Gulf War, but they did. Then the advanced cruise missile program that I was working on was cancelled. The Navy said, "we don't need it."


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## redtractor (May 18, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Except that the oil is deposited in the crank case prior to the fresh fuel charge being expelled out the exhaust in a traditional two stroke. So all that unburnt hc loss also leaves behind oil in the crankcase.
> What's lost on quit a few is that upon entry into the motor the fuel portion of premix is vaporised and the oil portion is deposited in the crankcase.
> The bottom line is a strato engine has much less oil flowing through it.



After I posted and shut down, that point finally did get through to me. But I will say in place of the other is that when tuned properly on the rich side (not like a box store Wild Thang), plenty of the good modern oil that we have available gets in there. 
All the stratos I've seen dead are from lean conditions in the cheap homeowner stuff. The hard evidence is yet to be collected on the better grade saws that have been set up correctly over time, but my money says that we won't see them dead in any greater numbers than any other configuration WHEN PROPERLY SET UP.


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## blsnelling (May 18, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I have posted it here several times before, to the blind it seems. Stihl calls the MS461 and the MS661 design "delayed scavenging" in their technical bulletins and emails to me, yes. From Stihl engineering: "...compared to the previous fresh air stratified two-cycle engine, the newer stratified scavenging on these saws uses exhaust rather than clean air." They say that the design of the carburetor and intake manifold are the same as those of previous conventional two stroke engine without fresh air stratified scavenging, but after the intake manifold the designs are different.
> 
> As for cooling concerns, that is exactly why they also added the 'Intake side ramp' in the crankcase. That is what the Stihl engineers call what you refer to as the 'cooling dohickey'. Its job is to shift the direction and velocity of the fuel charge for maximum cooling and lubrication. The design is not the same as the Tanaka engines. Call it what you want, but when the transfers open on the downstroke of the 461 and the 661, exhaust gases are stuffed into the transfers to create a stratified layer of exhaust gas between fuel charges. Its that simple.
> 
> Frankly I do not comprehend the bone-headed insistence about this, but WTF. Everyone is an expert here, and the Stihl engineers apparently do not know shiit about the saws that they design. Typical non-technical understanding of the world. They told us that the Tomahawk cruise missiles that we designed and built at GD would not work I the first Gulf War, but they did. Then the advanced cruise missile program that I was working on was cancelled. The Navy said, "we don't need it."


You have "talked to Stihl engineers". I read that as you have read emails from Stihl. Nice try. All you're doing is regurgitating Stihl talk. Doesn't sound like you've every even been inside of one of these saws. For what you're saying to be true, there would have to be some kind of change in the port timing. THERE IS NOT. If the 461 is strato charged, then so is the 460, 046, 026, 066, you name it. Bottom line is, you don't really know what you're talking about. You're just repeating what you've been told.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 18, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> "Wait a minute Fritz, I think we can add some more parts to this fuel cap!"


And yet still husky comes out with them as well?


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## heyduke (May 18, 2015)

if i recall this thread is about the longevity of stratified chain saws. here we are seven pages in and not one post has mentioned a crankshaft or big end failure due to poor lubrication. so i'm going to conclude that stratified charge has no negative effects on lubrication and unsubscribe. i don't practice any religion and i'm certainly not going to blindly worship a brand of chainsaws. adios.


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## Chris-PA (May 18, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> And yet still husky comes out with them as well?


While I don't see the need for either, compare a flip out handle on a screw cap to the Stihl quarter turn flippy cap - what is the relative parts count?


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## Chris-PA (May 18, 2015)

heyduke said:


> if i recall this thread is about the longevity of stratified chain saws. here we are seven pages in and not one post has mentioned a crankshaft or big end failure due to poor lubrication. so i'm going to conclude that stratified charge has no negative effects on lubrication and unsubscribe. i don't practice any religion and i'm certainly not going to blindly worship a brand of chainsaws. adios.


It was inevitable, as there wasn't really any issue to begin with.


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## Trx250r180 (May 18, 2015)

heyduke said:


> if i recall this thread is about the longevity of stratified chain saws. here we are seven pages in and not one post has mentioned a crankshaft or big end failure due to poor lubrication. so i'm going to conclude that stratified charge has no negative effects on lubrication and unsubscribe. i don't practice any religion and i'm certainly not going to blindly worship a brand of chainsaws. adios.



You obviously do not know how this site works ,You need to go through at least 10,000 posts and still find nothing benaficial out of the posts ,or anything answered that can be proven right or wrong ,but the bickering back and fourth gives us something to do  .


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## ArcticOverland (May 18, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> You obviously do not know how this site works ,You need to go through at least 10,000 posts and still find nothing benaficial out of the posts ,or anything answered that can be proven right or wrong ,but the bickering back and fourth gives us something to do  .



I know I am but what are you?


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## fordf150 (May 18, 2015)

heyduke said:


> this is a discussion of stratified charge chainsaws. i'm not familiar with 362's. the stihl website mentiontions that they feature "m-tronic" carbs but doesn't say anything about stratified charge or even low emissions. i'm confused, but it sounds like you've worked on them. are they stratos? if so, how do they acheive stratified charge? is there a separate circuit for injecting fresh air? thanks in advance for clearing this up.


yes they are strato. separate air valve. just had 6 more dropped off this morning with at least one of them needing a crankshaft


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## Moparmyway (May 18, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> yes they are strato. separate air valve. just had 6 more dropped off this morning with at least one of them needing a crankshaft


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## fordf150 (May 18, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


>


i have posted pics of the bad cranks before seeking answers and didnt get anywhere. Stihl and the local Stihl dealers tells me it is operator error. Which is basically what everyone told me in the original thread i started on these. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-261-and-362-crank-problems.260773/ If it turns out that this one has a bad crank i will post pics of it. Not sure yet jsut going off of the owners diagnoses. @fastLeo151 has them on the bench right now so we will see what he comes up with when they get torn down


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## bikemike (May 18, 2015)

windthrown said:


> No, because I have talked to the engineers that have designed them. Oh, but that makes me a dipshit moron here, right? Because a garage hack thinks he knows more than the Stihl engineers that designed the saws. Yah, I have heard that argument.


Trial n error its the only way to work bugs out of something


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## bikemike (May 18, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> i have posted pics of the bad cranks before seeking answers and didnt get anywhere. Stihl and the local Stihl dealers tells me it is operator error. Which is basically what everyone told me in the original thread i started on these. http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-261-and-362-crank-problems.260773/ If it turns out that this one has a bad crank i will post pics of it. Not sure yet jsut going off of the owners diagnoses. @fastLeo151 has them on the bench right now so we will see what he comes up with when they get torn down


To bend a crank on a rev limiter stock coil stihls should cover that a bad bottom end bearing from lack of lube thats a consumer issue.


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## Chris-PA (May 18, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I have posted it here several times before, to the blind it seems. Stihl calls the MS461 and the MS661 design "delayed scavenging" in their technical bulletins and emails to me, yes. From Stihl engineering: "...compared to the previous fresh air stratified two-cycle engine, the newer stratified scavenging on these saws uses exhaust rather than clean air." They say that the design of the carburetor and intake manifold are the same as those of previous conventional two stroke engine without fresh air stratified scavenging, but after the intake manifold the designs are different.
> 
> As for cooling concerns, that is exactly why they also added the 'Intake side ramp' in the crankcase. That is what the Stihl engineers call what you refer to as the 'cooling dohickey'. Its job is to shift the direction and velocity of the fuel charge for maximum cooling and lubrication. The design is not the same as the Tanaka engines. Call it what you want, but when the transfers open on the downstroke of the 461 and the 661, exhaust gases are stuffed into the transfers to create a stratified layer of exhaust gas between fuel charges. Its that simple.
> 
> Frankly I do not comprehend the bone-headed insistence about this, but WTF. Everyone is an expert here, and the Stihl engineers apparently do not know shiit about the saws that they design. Typical non-technical understanding of the world. They told us that the Tomahawk cruise missiles that we designed and built at GD would not work I the first Gulf War, but they did. Then the advanced cruise missile program that I was working on was cancelled. The Navy said, "we don't need it."


I understand the concept, and the effect described happens in every 2-stroke to some extent. If the residual combustion pressure in the cylinder exceeds the case pressure when the transfers open, then some exhaust will flow down the transfers. I was looking some evidence that Stihl had enhanced this effect, but none has been discovered. Something like a shorter blowdown angle or an obvious increase in exhaust back pressure for example. 

I've certainly never said the Stihl engineers don't know what they are doing. However, I have seen that Stihl marketing has a history of making fancy technical looking documents describing what are actually standard industry design practices (like quad transfers) and/or giving them fancy names (like "Intellicarb"), so their description of typical exhaust blowdown was not remarkable or particularly convincing.


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## mdavlee (May 18, 2015)

575xp when they first came out had several bearing failures. My husky dealer friend hated those. He said the 576 was much better but the 372 still outsold them both.


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## windthrown (May 18, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> You have "talked to Stihl engineers". I read that as you have read emails from Stihl. Nice try. All you're doing is regurgitating Stihl talk. Doesn't sound like you've every even been inside of one of these saws. For what you're saying to be true, there would have to be some kind of change in the port timing. THERE IS NOT. If the 461 is strato charged, then so is the 460, 046, 026, 066, you name it. Bottom line is, you don't really know what you're talking about. You're just repeating what you've been told.



You are a broken record. It is subtle, and obviously beyond your comprehension. You are like the Ape spreading disinformation because you cannot figure it out. You have a theory that is based on nothing but conjecture and after the fact observations. You are just displaying your stubbornness and lack of mechanical ability to THINK.

My father was a lawyer from Brooklyn, NY. He used to tell me, "Son, never get into a fight with someone with nothing to lose." Well, Brad, I have nothing to lose here. I am not making money off of fools sending me saws to do pop-up mods on (which I believe are inferior to cut squish mods, but that is another topic). You are simply wrong. Nothing you have claimed has convinced me otherwise, and everything I have seen from Stihl makes perfect sense to me. And unlike you, I was a rocket scientist. Or rather, engineer. Yes, I delve in the virtual world of design using computer simulation, modeling, prototyping, theory, science and math. I am very good at it. I have multiple engineering and science degrees from multiple respected universities. I know that does not resonate herein the world of blue collar hacks, but I really do not care. I have time to refute your claims, as I will continue to do. I say in your face, Bubba. You are wrong.


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## Deleted member 83629 (May 18, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> So who had the 4 mix trimmers first? Shinny or Stihl?


not sure but i seen the valve train problems with the 4 mix along with burnt exhaust valves and snapped camshaft.
seen the many piles of br600 blowers were the valve fell out of the head and mangled the engine broken timing belts etc....etc


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## windthrown (May 18, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I understand the concept, and the effect described happens in every 2-stroke to some extent. If the residual combustion pressure in the cylinder exceeds the case pressure when the transfers open, then some exhaust will flow down the transfers. I was looking some evidence that Stihl had enhanced this effect, but none has been discovered. Something like a shorter blowdown angle or an obvious increase in exhaust back pressure for example.
> 
> I've certainly never said the Stihl engineers don't know what they are doing. However, I have seen that Stihl marketing has a history of making fancy technical looking documents describing what are actually standard industry design practices (like quad transfers) and/or giving them fancy names (like "Intellicarb"), so their description of typical exhaust blowdown was not remarkable or particularly convincing.



The difference is in the transfers, and that is all you really have to do to make the effect work. Well, that and the intake side ramp to keep them from overheating and keep them lubricated. If you look at all the crap required to make a fresh air stratified saw work, this is a breakthough in engineering. It is subtle, but subtle can make a huge difference. Seemingly it is beyond anyone else here. My challenge would be to remove the ramp (the doohickey) from a stock saw and see how long they last before burning up. If they are the same as pre-EPA saws, as Brad claims, they should run forever w/o the ramp in there.


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## blsnelling (May 18, 2015)

windthrown said:


> You are a broken record. It is subtle, and obviously beyond your comprehension. You are like the Ape spreading disinformation because you cannot figure it out. You have a theory that is based on nothing but conjecture and after the fact observations. You are just displaying your stubbornness and lack of mechanical ability to THINK.
> 
> My father was a lawyer from Brooklyn, NY. He used to tell me, "Son, never get into a fight with someone with nothing to lose." Well, Brad, I have nothing to lose here. I am not making money off of fools sending me saws to do pop-up mods on (which I believe are inferior to cut squish mods, but that is another topic). You are simply wrong. Nothing you have claimed has convinced me otherwise, and everything I have seen from Stihl makes perfect sense to me. And unlike you, I was a rocket scientist. Or rather, engineer. Yes, I delve in the virtual world of design using computer simulation, modeling, prototyping, theory, science and math. I am very good at it. I have multiple engineering and science degrees from multiple respected universities. I know that does not resonate herein the world of blue collar hacks, but I really do not care. I have time to refute your claims, as I will continue to do. I say in your face, Bubba. You are wrong.


You should try reading your own writing and apply it to yourself. You're doing a fantastic job of describing yourself. Your silence is deafening on how many of these you have been into. BTW, your not the only engineer in this conversation...not that it matters.


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## fordf150 (May 18, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


>



nothing to post pics of. lots of P&C carnage but no crank failures but it does show how many of these saws have had crank problems when the owner makes the guess that it needs a crankshaft.


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## bwalker (May 18, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I understand the concept, and the effect described happens in every 2-stroke to some extent. If the residual combustion pressure in the cylinder exceeds the case pressure when the transfers open, then some exhaust will flow down the transfers. I was looking some evidence that Stihl had enhanced this effect, but none has been discovered. Something like a shorter blowdown angle or an obvious increase in exhaust back pressure for example.
> 
> I've certainly never said the Stihl engineers don't know what they are doing. However, I have seen that Stihl marketing has a history of making fancy technical looking documents describing what are actually standard industry design practices (like quad transfers) and/or giving them fancy names (like "Intellicarb"), so their description of typical exhaust blowdown was not remarkable or particularly convincing.


There is no residual pressure because the combustion chamber would be at atmospheric shortly after the exhaust port opens. Then the transfers open and blast residual exhaust out of the combustion chamber.
I can't see how the 461 can be considered a strato saw without dual barrel carb and duct setup, but I haven't inspected one either.


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## Deleted member 83629 (May 18, 2015)

like a echo 590 it has no cat muffler and a single barrel carb and yet it meets emissions.


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## Chris-PA (May 18, 2015)

bwalker said:


> There is no residual pressure because the combustion chamber would be at atmospheric shortly after the exhaust port opens. Then the transfers open and blast residual exhaust out of the combustion chamber.


At 10,000rpm the transfers open 333microseconds after the exhaust port. I'd place bets on residual combustion pressure, especially if there is much muffler back pressure.  

I would like to see some data though.


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## bwalker (May 18, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> At 10,000rpm the transfers open 333microseconds after the exhaust port. I'd place bets on residual combustion pressure, especially if there is much muffler back pressure.
> 
> I would like to see some data though.


You ever seen exhaust deposits in the transfer ports? I sure havent.
And also keep in mind that even prior to the exhaust port opening pressure has been reduced by a great degree.


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## Chris-PA (May 18, 2015)

bwalker said:


> You ever seen exhaust deposits in the transfer ports? I sure havent.
> And also keep in mind that even prior to the exhaust port opening pressure has been reduced by a great degree.


I'm sure cylinder pressure vs. crank angle data exists, but I don't have any so there's no point debating it.

Edit: I just looked at an old cylinder, and yes it does have exhaust deposits in the upper transfers. I also re-read a document about modeling transfer flow on a strato, and it describes flow of exhaust gas into the transfers when the transfer ports first open. Unfortunately it doesn't say how long this lasts, but the implication is clearly that it does not delay the fresh charge very long compared to the column of fresh air in the transfer runners.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> While I don't see the need for either, compare a flip out handle on a screw cap to the Stihl quarter turn flippy cap - what is the relative parts count?


was it a copy of stihl or not? the flippy cap is only an issue for those who are too simple minded to figure them out..................... i am guessing husky simplified it becuase they knew the average husky operator would just stand there dumb founded. after they ran through the initial tank of fuel, the saw may just set there unused until they figured the ever so complicated cap out. it is just a fuel cap, if a guy cant figure it out, then he should probably leave the chainsaw to someone that is a little less challenged with such things.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> yes they are strato. separate air valve. just had 6 more dropped off this morning with at least one of them needing a crankshaft


wow, you have more 362 repairs in this thread than my shops have seen in a couple of years. i guess i never knew it was such a problematic model for stihl. i will look today and see how many crank assemblies BRYAN EQUIP. has warranted in the last couple of years.


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## Andyshine77 (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> was it a copy of stihl or not? the flippy cap is only an issue for those who are too simple minded to figure them out..................... i am guessing husky simplified it becuase they knew the average husky operator would just stand there dumb founded. after they ran through the initial tank of fuel, the saw may just set there unused until they figured the ever so complicated cap out. it is just a fuel cap, if a guy cant figure it out, then he should probably leave the chainsaw to someone that is a little less challenged with such things.



You're one arrogant little sob. 

I've had flip caps fall apart, have had a few tanks that deformed so the cap would no longer fit, and the cap on my fs110 was recalled. It's simply another part Stihl prioritized. Stihl flip caps are absurd and needlessly over engineered pos. A stupid design for stupid homeowners that use their equipment once a year. aka you!!


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## ArcticOverland (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> was it a copy of stihl or not? the flippy cap is only an issue for those who are too simple minded to figure them out..................... i am guessing husky simplified it becuase they knew the average husky operator would just stand there dumb founded. after they ran through the initial tank of fuel, the saw may just set there unused until they figured the ever so complicated cap out. it is just a fuel cap, if a guy cant figure it out, then he should probably leave the chainsaw to someone that is a little less challenged with such things.


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## Chris-PA (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> was it a copy of stihl or not?


Obviously not.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> You're one arrogant little sob.
> 
> I've had flip caps fall apart, have had a few tanks that deformed so the cap would no longer fit, and the cap on my fs110 was recalled. It's simply another part Stihl prioritized. Stihl flip caps are absurd and needlessly over engineered pos. A stupid design for stupid homeowners that use their equipment once a year. aka you!!


Says you, don't mistake my confidence for arrogance. I would highly suggest if you don't like my posts you put me on "ignore" . we heat 3 large homes and 2 large shops with firewood. So I would say we cut some wood, and probably need to run our saws quite a bit in the winter..... Judging by your anger on the issue, you must be one that really struggles with the ever so complicated flippy cap. You sure seem to be a little of the jealous type, always thought you were a decent guy, guess your just another DIK here.......... Hope the rest of your day gets better for you.


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## KenJax Tree (May 19, 2015)

The flippy caps have improved. The first ones on my 200T just plain sucked.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

FWIW I liked the flip caps on my last Stihl.
I never did like the fact that Stihl used rubber antivibe and had crappy filtration for years after Husky went to springs and air injection. Or the fact husky's always cut faster with more torque.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I'm sure cylinder pressure vs. crank angle data exists, but I don't have any so there's no point debating it.
> 
> Edit: I just looked at an old cylinder, and yes it does have exhaust deposits in the upper transfers. I also re-read a document about modeling transfer flow on a strato, and it describes flow of exhaust gas into the transfers when the transfer ports first open. Unfortunately it doesn't say how long this lasts, but the implication is clearly that it does not delay the fresh charge very long compared to the column of fresh air in the transfer runners.


Interesting. I have never seen this.


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## Paragon Builder (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Says you, don't mistake my confidence for arrogance. Judging by your anger on the issue, you must be one that really struggles with the ever so complicated flippy cap. .


Seriously!
Quick google search

"It’s important to understand the differences between arrogance and confidence, because no one likes to deal with arrogant people. Both arrogant and confident people entail a strong belief in their own abilities. Those with confidence can easily overcome fears and uncertainty. Moreover, they have a positive and optimistic vision that makes them strong and admirable. Sometimes over-confidence turns into arrogance and it is a big weakness. Arrogant people usually view themselves as superior and never admit their mistakes. Read on to find out the difference between arrogance and confidence."

I call arrogance.

And to act like flippy caps have never been problematic is just plain dumb!!!


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

Paragon Builder said:


> Seriously!
> Quick google search
> 
> "It’s important to understand the differences between arrogance and confidence, because no one likes to deal with arrogant people. Both arrogant and confident people entail a strong belief in their own abilities. Those with confidence can easily overcome fears and uncertainty. Moreover, they have a positive and optimistic vision that makes them strong and admirable. Sometimes over-confidence turns into arrogance and it is a big weakness. Arrogant people usually view themselves as superior and never admit their mistakes. Read on to find out the difference between arrogance and confidence."
> ...


Sorry I don't need to " google" anything, unlike 75% of the population. Those that know me, know that I am far from arrogant. Furthermore, you don't get to far in my line of business being arrogant, we are very good/successful at what we do for a reason.


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## fordf150 (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> wow, you have more 362 repairs in this thread than my shops have seen in a couple of years. i guess i never knew it was such a problematic model for stihl. i will look today and see how many crank assemblies BRYAN EQUIP. has warranted in the last couple of years.


doubt you will find many warranty claims on 261/362 cranks as Stihl claims it is operator error that is causing the problems. I tried to get them warrantied through the local dealer when they started showing up at my shop. Stihl also only warrantied one batch of the fuel solenoids then told them that no more would be covered. These saws are coming from a national power line trimming company so maybe that is why stihl wont warranty anything for them. I am hard pressed to see how big end rod bearing failures and grooves wore into the crank from the clutch bearing are anything but a warranty item but i dont own a billion dollar company either.


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## opinion (May 19, 2015)

Stihl shouldn't be warranting anything from a non-dealership. Consider yourself lucky.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> doubt you will find many warranty claims on 261/362 cranks as Stihl claims it is operator error that is causing the problems. I tried to get them warrantied through the local dealer when they started showing up at my shop. Stihl also only warrantied one batch of the fuel solenoids then told them that no more would be covered. These saws are coming from a national power line trimming company so maybe that is why stihl wont warranty anything for them. I am hard pressed to see how big end rod bearing failures and grooves wore into the crank from the clutch bearing are anything but a warranty item but i dont own a billion dollar company either.


I would be curious to know what it is they are doing with these saws to cause continual failure. Usual Stihl takes VERY good care of these large accounts. I rarely even feel the need any more to contact my rep on these issues with big accounts. There is hardly ever an issue getting things covered. That's what makes me wonder if your customer has abused the warranty process through another dealer? Can you post some pics of the cranks?? Also maybe I could get some customer info from you, and see what comes up on the data base??? Thank you


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## Paragon Builder (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Sorry I don't need to " google" anything, unlike 75% of the population. Those that know me, know that I am far from arrogant. Furthermore, you don't get to far in my line of business being arrogant, we are very good/successful at what we do for a reason.


Lol


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## Chris-PA (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Sorry I don't need to " google" anything, unlike 75% of the population. Those that know me, know that I am far from arrogant.


Thank you, I needed a chuckle this morning.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Thank you, I needed a chuckle this morning.


Glad to have entertained you.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

windthrown said:


> You are a broken record. It is subtle, and obviously beyond your comprehension. You are like the Ape spreading disinformation because you cannot figure it out. You have a theory that is based on nothing but conjecture and after the fact observations. You are just displaying your stubbornness and lack of mechanical ability to THINK.
> 
> My father was a lawyer from Brooklyn, NY. He used to tell me, "Son, never get into a fight with someone with nothing to lose." Well, Brad, I have nothing to lose here. I am not making money off of fools sending me saws to do pop-up mods on (which I believe are inferior to cut squish mods, but that is another topic). You are simply wrong. Nothing you have claimed has convinced me otherwise, and everything I have seen from Stihl makes perfect sense to me. And unlike you, I was a rocket scientist. Or rather, engineer. Yes, I delve in the virtual world of design using computer simulation, modeling, prototyping, theory, science and math. I am very good at it. I have multiple engineering and science degrees from multiple respected universities. I know that does not resonate herein the world of blue collar hacks, but I really do not care. I have time to refute your claims, as I will continue to do. I say in your face, Bubba. You are wrong.


I totaly agree with the statement that pop up pistons are a hack move..for several reasons.


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## ArcticOverland (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Sorry I don't need to " google" anything, unlike 75% of the population. Those that know me, know that I am far from arrogant. Furthermore, you don't get to far in my line of business being arrogant, we are very good/successful at what we do for a reason.









Sure. You're a legend in your own underwear. I heard you're so full of hot air you've managed to effectively stratocharge your boxer shorts....

I sort of had you figured for a guy who'd be pretty much all finished up in just 2 strokes too....


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## fordf150 (May 19, 2015)

They do take very good care of this company on new equipment and sending factory reps out to do training sessions. If you knew what they paid for saws it might make more sense why they dont warranty them. I sent the saws up to a stihl dealer to let them do what i thought was a warranty issue. The stihl dealer told me they see it all the time from that company and it was not a warranty issue. they had already tried turning them in and it was denied. This came from one of the better stihl dealers in my area. The company told me the same thing...they had tried to get them warrantied before and failed. So now we just fix them. 

here are the pics....same issues on every saw http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-261-and-362-crank-problems.260773/ They dont have any issues with their 200T or 361 saws though so that leads me to believe it is a quality issue on the clutch drum bearing wear and either a quality or oil issue on big end bearing failures.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

bwalker said:


> I totaly agree with the statement that pop up pistons are a hack move..for several reasons.


Well quite obvious who you are jabbing at now, at who is putting you up to it. What a bunch of cowards.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Well quite obvious who you are jabbing at now, at who is putting you up to it. What a bunch of cowards.


Not jabbing at anyone, and certainly not you. Just saying I agree with that statement.
I do think your a complete douche, but that's neither here nor there.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> They do take very good care of this company on new equipment and sending factory reps out to do training sessions. If you knew what they paid for saws it might make more sense why they dont warranty them. I sent the saws up to a stihl dealer to let them do what i thought was a warranty issue. The stihl dealer told me they see it all the time from that company and it was not a warranty issue. they had already tried turning them in and it was denied. This came from one of the better stihl dealers in my area. The company told me the same thing...they had tried to get them warrantied before and failed. So now we just fix them.
> 
> here are the pics....same issues on every saw http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-261-and-362-crank-problems.260773/ They dont have any issues with their 200T or 361 saws though so that leads me to believe it is a quality issue on the clutch drum bearing wear and either a quality or oil issue on big end bearing failures.


 can't explain the rod failure, other than the person mixing fuel is lazy? The clutch drum deal is obviously chain way too tight, and little to no grease on the bearing as others here have stated. Are the saws mtronic or carb models?


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Not jabbing at anyone, and certainly not you. Just saying I agree with that statement.
> I do think your a complete douche, but that's neither here nor there.


And I care what you think of me why? I guess it certainly takes one to know one in your case. And yeh you and your SH girlfriends' are jabbing at someone. I just love how that whole POS site completely revolves around what goes on here.


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## Paragon Builder (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> And I care what you think of me why? I guess it certainly takes one to know one in your case. And yeh you and your SH girlfriends' are jabbing at someone. I just love how that whole POS site completely revolves around what goes on here.


It must really suck being so insecure...
And I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge that could benefit the site greatly if your ego wasn't getting in the way.
Oh well. I'm moving on.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> And I care what you think of me why? I guess it certainly takes one to know one in your case. And yeh you and your SH girlfriends' are jabbing at someone. I just love how that whole POS site completely revolves around what goes on here.


I have no idea what your talking about..


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

Paragon Builder said:


> And I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge that could benefit the site greatly if your ego wasn't getting in the way.


That's a stretch. The guy can't figure out how a two cycle motor that uses much less fuel also has much less lubrication...


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## Trx250r180 (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> And I care what you think of me why? I guess it certainly takes one to know one in your case. And yeh you and your SH girlfriends' are jabbing at someone. I just love how that whole POS site completely revolves around what goes on here.



Hater


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 19, 2015)

bwalker said:


> That's a stretch. The guy can't figure out how a two cycle motor that uses much less fuel also has much less lubrication...


You me there,you must be an engineer as well? Judging by this thread and your continued babbling, you don't know either. Maybe you should read your own bs posts. Strato engines are more efficient, there is no reason to believe they get less lubrication. But you seem to have everything figured out. Just curious, how much time have you spent in a Stihl or husky tech school, tech update, or other factory sponsored courses???


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## fordf150 (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Strato engines are more efficient, there is no reason to believe they get less lubrication. But you seem to have everything figured out. Just curious, how much time have you spent in a Stihl or husky tech school, tech update, or other factory sponsored courses???



spent a great deal of time watching training videos, reading documents, going to the tech schools for Dolmar, Echo, Jred....more efficient means there is less fuel flowing through the engine. less fuel through the engine also means less oil(lubrication) through the engine given that the mix ratio remained the same(which it did). 20% less fuel passing through the case is 20% less lubrication. Stihl claims up to a 20% fuel savings on their MS-311 so that is how i picked that number. Oil has improved along with manufactures knowledge on ensuring components are kept cool and lubricated(doohicky on a 461) but 20% less is 20% less no matter how you look at it. Manufactures have a vested interest in convincing consumers and techs/dealers that there is no sacrifice in engine longevity. Do you really think Stihl/husky is going to advertise that a strato 50:1 chainsaw is more likely to wear out bearings or have piston scuffing than a non strato saw or one that is running 40:1 which they can not recommend because they cant meet emissions with that mix ratio.


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## windthrown (May 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> You should try reading your own writing and apply it to yourself. You're doing a fantastic job of describing yourself. Your silence is deafening on how many of these you have been into. BTW, your not the only engineer in this conversation...not that it matters.



Thus speaketh the mighty Brad, king of what, tearing saws down and rebuilding saws? Exactly how many products have you designed that have gone into productions from the ground up? I do not have to dig into an engine to understand how they work. BTW: I have torn down, rebuilt and re-designed I do not now how many engines. It is in the hundreds. I have also worked in the failure analysis labs analyzing shiit down to the molecular level. Not that you know what that is or entails, nor will I bother trying to educate you here about it. No point. You know everything about everything already! Seemingly by just looking at things.

Again, I speak and repeat the Stihl line here because these saws actually work the way that they were designed it to. Hard as it is for you to actually fathom that. Which has me wondering why anyone would send you a 461 or a 661 with their hard earned money to hop one up. You obviously do not understand how they actually work! I also question your instance that pop-ups are better than squish cut, and that one ring is better then 2. You have continued to refuse to compare your saws 1:1 against other types of modified saws in dyno testing that would easily prove things one way or the other. But noooooooo! You are above empirical testing and analysis!

And yes, I am aware that there are other engineers here. At least one anyway. You are certainly not one of them.


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## windthrown (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Well quite obvious who you are jabbing at now, at who is putting you up to it. What a bunch of cowards.



Is this another Ape rendition we are dealing with here? Sure seems like it.


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## Trx250r180 (May 19, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Is this another Ape rendition we are dealing with here? Sure seems like it.
> 
> View attachment 425725



You missed Brush Apes cousin from India last night ,he seemed like a real nice guy ,had a 090 contra even .


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## windthrown (May 19, 2015)

Brush ape's Indian cousin? Oh no. Was it Brushadhamara Apearendhra?

Can you post a link?


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## Trx250r180 (May 19, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Brush ape's Indian cousin? Oh no. Was it Brushadhamara Apearendhra?
> 
> Can you post a link?


His posts were all gone this am ,i think he did not have his green card and got deported .


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## windthrown (May 19, 2015)

Yes, there is an Ape Watch in effect here now.


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## KenJax Tree (May 19, 2015)

Has anyone ever noticed after brush ape gets banned the site has problems?


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## windthrown (May 19, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Has anyone ever noticed after brush ape gets banned shortly after, the site has problems?



Yes... I believe that there is a direct connection. If he can't rant on this forum, he goes berserk.

Too many timeouts today and server errors.


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## SAWMIKAZE (May 19, 2015)

Anyone else gots a dyno sheet for a 461 ?

I forgot about this.


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## Chris-PA (May 19, 2015)

windthrown said:


> The difference is in the transfers, and that is all you really have to do to make the effect work. Well, that and the intake side ramp to keep them from overheating and keep them lubricated. If you look at all the crap required to make a fresh air stratified saw work, this is a breakthough in engineering. It is subtle, but subtle can make a huge difference. Seemingly it is beyond anyone else here. My challenge would be to remove the ramp (the doohickey) from a stock saw and see how long they last before burning up. If they are the same as pre-EPA saws, as Brad claims, they should run forever w/o the ramp in there.


The emissions limits thus far are mainly intended to prevent puking raw fuel out the exhaust, which mainly comes from two sources: The scavenging losses inherent to 2-strokes, and the poor mixture control of the carbs which go rich enough to cause misfire with only a small increase in air velocity. On top of that there is an emission credit scheme, so not every saw must meet the same limits. It looks to me like addressing one of these main sources gets one pretty close, and there are many strato saws with conventional carbs.

The cooling kickup was always the best evidence that there was something to the claims of exhaust delayed scavenging, but the fact that they are putting fresh air strato systems on their high volume saws says it may not be enough across the product line. The purpose of delayed scavenging is simply to reduce the time that fuel is in the combustion chamber while the exhaust port is open, and I suspect that the exhaust delayed scavenging may create some delay, but shorter than that of a full fresh air strato system (this is indicated by the attached document which describes an attempt to model the transfer flow in a Husqvarna strato). It may be enough when combined with a feedback carb on some of their saws, given that the high volume units are now fresh air strato, often combined with a feedback carb. So you are correct that the effect is "subtle" - perhaps "minimal" would likely be a better term. 

As for "all the crap required to make a fresh air stratified saw work" - a fresh air strato requires no moving parts. It is an elegant design. A separate air valve is not required, rather it is a performance enhancement that allows the strato function to be shut off at idle, and effectively gives variable intake port timing. Many newer Stihl and Husky saws use a carb with a split flow and single throttle plate (thanks to yet another Zenoah patent). 

Last, a fresh air strato pulls cool air across the piston and down the transfers during intake, and then air and mix flows up the transfers as in a conventional engine. That is a much more appealing approach than pushing hot exhaust down the transfers. Also the gas that is used to delay the charge is going to be used in the next combustion, unlike exhaust which must be expelled.


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## hseII (May 19, 2015)




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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> You me there,you must be an engineer as well? Judging by this thread and your continued babbling, you don't know either. Maybe you should read your own bs posts. Strato engines are more efficient, there is no reason to believe they get less lubrication. But you seem to have everything figured out. Just curious, how much time have you spent in a Stihl or husky tech school, tech update, or other factory sponsored courses???


Keep proving your ignorance.....


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## Andyshine77 (May 19, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> The flippy caps have improved. The first ones on my 200T just plain sucked.


My point. Why on earth should a cap need improvement? That says it all in my book.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> The emissions limits thus far are mainly intended to prevent puking raw fuel out the exhaust, which mainly comes from two sources: The scavenging losses inherent to 2-strokes, and the poor mixture control of the carbs which go rich enough to cause misfire with only a small increase in air velocity. On top of that there is an emission credit scheme, so not every saw must meet the same limits. It looks to me like addressing one of these main sources gets one pretty close, and there are many strato saws with conventional carbs.
> 
> The cooling kickup was always the best evidence that there was something to the claims of exhaust delayed scavenging, but the fact that they are putting fresh air strato systems on their high volume saws says it may not be enough across the product line. The purpose of delayed scavenging is simply to reduce the time that fuel is in the combustion chamber while the exhaust port is open, and I suspect that the exhaust delayed scavenging may create some delay, but shorter than that of a full fresh air strato system (this is indicated by the attached document which describes an attempt to model the transfer flow in a Husqvarna strato). It may be enough when combined with a feedback carb on some of their saws, given that the high volume units are now fresh air strato, often combined with a feedback carb. So you are correct that the effect is "subtle" - perhaps "minimal" would likely be a better term.
> 
> ...


The Zenoah based strato sytems as used by Husky is a thing of beauty. Stihl is playing catch up big time IMO.


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## blsnelling (May 19, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Which has me wondering why anyone would send you a 461 or a 661 with their hard earned money to hop one up. You obviously do not understand how they actually work! I also question your instance that pop-ups are better than squish cut, and that one ring is better then 2. You have continued to refuse to compare your saws 1:1 against other types of modified saws in dyno testing that would easily prove things one way or the other. But noooooooo! You are above empirical testing and analysis!
> 
> And yes, I am aware that there are other engineers here. At least one anyway. You are certainly not one of them.









You're showing your ignorance on so many levels, in nearly everything you have to say. You obviously know basically nothing about me, my saws, or my work. The proof's in the pooding, right there buddy. I have no need to go into my professional credentials. I've also never said cutting squish bands is inferior. I simply don't find them necessary. Again, the proof's in the pudding. Cutting the squishband is a valuable tool when needing to lower the exhaust, or need more compression than a popup will get you. That's not very often IMHO. Different people skin cats different ways. What's it to you? The only thing you have in this is a bone to pick, and who knows why. I never had any dealings with you. *The simple fact that you need to exploit your supposed credentials and tear down mine speaks volumes!*


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> You're showing your ignorance on so many levels, in nearly everything you have to say. You obviously know basically nothing about me, my saws, or my work. The proof's in the pooding, right there buddy. I have no need to go into my professional credentials. I've also never said cutting squish bands is inferior. I simply don't find them necessary. Again, the proof's in the pudding. Cutting the squishband is a valuable tool when needing to lower the exhaust, or need more compression than a popup will get you. That's not very often IMHO. Different people skin cats different ways. What's it to you? The only thing you have in this is a bone to pick, and who knows why. I never had any dealings with you. *The simple fact that you need to exploit your supposed credentials and tear down mine speaks volumes!*


Brad, respectfully, squish bands are very important and it has nothing to do with compression. And a popup piston has some serious downsides. ONLY in the chainsaw world is this be acceptable and then only because of the difficulty in properly machining the head of a saw.


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## fordf150 (May 19, 2015)

Not sure how this turned into a pop-up vs squish thread


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## Moparmyway (May 19, 2015)

bwalker said:


> ONLY in the chainsaw world is this be acceptable and then only because of the difficulty in properly machining the head of a saw.


Soooooooooooooo NOT true

Think of the Hemi - it has a popup with valve reliefs

the only motor to be banned from NASCAR due to its rediculous winning history ............... leaving the others to having to resort to begging for rules changes so their motors could stand a chance


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## walexa07 (May 19, 2015)

When I first read up on the strato design, and the lower fuel consumption, I jumped on the bandwagon with the less lubrication line of thinking. This thread has opened my mind some in that regard. Take a 4-stroke engine in an automobile for example. If you remove the drain plug on the oil pan, and if you can pour engine oil in the filler cap fast enough to keep the oil level at the constant required level, lubrication is sufficient. So just because a traditional 2-stroke has more fuel mix through the engine does not necessarily mean it is lubricating the internals better - it's just wasting more - same as removing the oil drain plug on the automobile as referenced above. I know a 4-stroke engine in an automobile is way different than any 2-stroke engine, but I think the analogy holds true. 

Waylan


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## fordf150 (May 19, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> When I first read up on the strato design, and the lower fuel consumption, I jumped on the bandwagon with the less lubrication line of thinking. This thread has opened my mind some in that regard. Take a 4-stroke engine in an automobile for example. If you remove the drain plug on the oil pan, and if you can pour engine oil in the filler cap fast enough to keep the oil level at the constant required level, lubrication is sufficient. So just because a traditional 2-stroke has more fuel mix through the engine does not necessarily mean it is lubricating the internals better - it's just wasting more - same as removing the oil drain plug on the automobile as referenced above. I know a 4-stroke engine in an automobile is way different than any 2-stroke engine, but I think the analogy holds true.
> 
> Waylan


To an extent that is probably true. Individual engine design characteristics likely play a role too. Lots of things to consider from improvements in materials and machining tolerances to 3d modeling and computer programs to determine loads placed on individual components instead of just winging it on determining proper bearing sizes. Probably to many variables for anyone to give a definitive answer either way. 

Something to think about with your auto engine line of thinking though. Just ten years ago a 4cyl engine held 4 quarts of oil and a v8 held 5. Today it isn't uncommon to see a 4cyl with 6 quarts of oil and 6 quarts is the minimum for a v8. Same or even better improvement in oil quality in auto oils compared to 2t oil


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## blsnelling (May 19, 2015)

As engines are pushed farther and farther, developing more HP, and ever increasing the BMP, the demands on the oil continue to rise. One way to deal with that is to increase the capacity of the sump. Some engines are MUCH harder on oil than others, having to do with valve train design, etc.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Soooooooooooooo NOT true
> 
> Think of the Hemi - it has a popup with valve reliefs
> 
> the only motor to be banned from NASCAR due to its rediculous winning history ............... leaving the others to having to resort to begging for rules changes so their motors could stand a chance


Except a hemi is a four stroke....Four strokes are not sensitive to piston temps like a two stroke.
Not to mention the fact that Hemi came that way and as such don't have part of the area above the ring removed..
AND what I said was "Soooooooooooooo true". You only find home made popup pistons in the chainsaw world.


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> When I first read up on the strato design, and the lower fuel consumption, I jumped on the bandwagon with the less lubrication line of thinking. This thread has opened my mind some in that regard. Take a 4-stroke engine in an automobile for example. If you remove the drain plug on the oil pan, and if you can pour engine oil in the filler cap fast enough to keep the oil level at the constant required level, lubrication is sufficient. So just because a traditional 2-stroke has more fuel mix through the engine does not necessarily mean it is lubricating the internals better - it's just wasting more - same as removing the oil drain plug on the automobile as referenced above. I know a 4-stroke engine in an automobile is way different than any 2-stroke engine, but I think the analogy holds true.
> 
> Waylan


Your not considering several things.... it is a fact a strato engine has less lubricant available to it. The strato design from a lubrication stand point are the same as a traditional two stroke.


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## fordf150 (May 19, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Except a hemi is a four stroke....Four strokes are not sensitive to piston temps like a two stroke.


Even 4 stroke engines generally perform better with flat tops and zero deck heights. Exceptions do exist and sometimes it just isn't possible to get the compression that is needed/wanted with a flat top and the chosen chamber design


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## svk (May 19, 2015)

Alright gents, there have been some complaints about this thread. Lets keep things cordial in here. Thanks.


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## zogger (May 19, 2015)

svk said:


> Alright gents, there have been some complaints about this thread. Lets keep things cordial in here. Thanks.



Ya, no need to argue about this, just go old school! Add some zerk fittings to the crankcase, keep it pumped up with good old farm grease! Acts like crank stuffers, too...


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## bwalker (May 19, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Even 4 stroke engines generally perform better with flat tops and zero deck heights. Exceptions do exist and sometimes it just isn't possible to get the compression that is needed/wanted with a flat top and the chosen chamber design


Your talking four strokes and engines pistons designed to be popups, jot garage made pop ups... totaly different kettle of fish.
No tuner worth a damn in the motor cycle, kart, or snowmobile world would make a pop up.


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## Moparmyway (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> And a popup piston has some serious downsides. ONLY in the chainsaw world is this be acceptable and then only because of the difficulty in properly machining the head of a saw.





bwalker said:


> You only find home made popup pistons in the chainsaw world.



Welp ........now yer changin yer tune again....... if'n ya would have written that in the first place, I wouldnt have had any need to single out yer words

This goes back to where I suggested that you take your time and think before you hit "post reply"


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## Chris-PA (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> it is a fact a strato engine has less lubricant available to it.


It is a fact that a strato has maybe 20% less fuel mix moving through the case per revolution. The rest of the claims are not as clear:

Because moving the fresh charge to the cylinder, that means it stays in the case for a greater number of degrees (=time) than a conventional engine.

Case bearings are not on the flow path of the mix, rather a side eddy where mix gets trapped. They get coated with the same mix, and I doubt they experience a 20% reduction in lubrication.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> It is a fact that a strato has maybe 20% less fuel mix moving through the case per revolution. The rest of the claims are not as clear:
> 
> Because moving the fresh charge to the cylinder, that means it stays in the case for a greater number of degrees (=time) than a conventional engine.
> 
> Case bearings are not on the flow path of the mix, rather a side eddy where mix gets trapped. They get coated with the same mix, and I doubt they experience a 20% reduction in lubrication.


The only thing doing the coating is oil, not mix. The fuel evaporates when it reaches the crankcase. Thus how long the vaporised fuel stays in the crankcase doesnt matter. The oils loiter time is dictated mostly by rpm.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Welp ........now yer changin yer tune again....... if'n ya would have written that in the first place, I wouldnt have had any need to single out yer words
> 
> This goes back to where I suggested that you take your time and think before you hit "post reply"


I didn't change my tune at all, you just didn't think about what I said...


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## the GOAT (May 20, 2015)

So since a ported saw is _less_ fuel efficient wouldn't it make sense that they need less oil in the mix?


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## Chris-PA (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The only thing doing the coating is oil, not mix. The fuel evaporates when it reaches the crankcase. Thus how long the vaporised fuel stays in the crankcase doesnt matter. The oils loiter time is dictated mostly by rpm.


That the fuel evaporates out is not relevant to my point that the oil in a strato spends a greater number of degrees of crankshaft rotation in the case than it does in a conventional engine. The rpm is also not relevant as each rotation is a separate event, at higher rpm more oil will be brought in sooner (the next rotation), and both the oil and the fuel are continually moving through.

I agree with you that there is some 20% less oil moving through the case, but I disagree that this translates to 20% less "lubrication" in all areas, as the situation is more complex than that. And with a variety of strato saws on the market for over 10 years I think we'd have seen evidence of some inherent problem with the technology if there were one (setting aside any possible design flaws on specific saws).


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## Franny K (May 20, 2015)

the GOAT said:


> So since a ported saw is _less_ fuel efficient wouldn't it make sense that they need less oil in the mix?


To quote ChrisPa
It is a fact that a strato has maybe 20% less fuel mix moving through the case per revolution. The rest of the claims are not as clear:

This thread is about the longevity which the manufacturer uses as a design parameter. Adding in modified from stock brings in complication.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> That the fuel evaporates out is not relevant to my point that the oil in a strato spends a greater number of degrees of crankshaft rotation in the case than it does in a conventional engine. The rpm is also not relevant as each rotation is a separate event, at higher rpm more oil will be brought in sooner (the next rotation), and both the oil and the fuel are continually moving through.
> 
> I agree with you that there is some 20% less oil moving through the case, but I disagree that this translates to 20% less "lubrication" in all areas, as the situation is more complex than that. And with a variety of strato saws on the market for over 10 years I think we'd have seen evidence of some inherent problem with the technology if there were one (setting aside any possible design flaws on specific saws).


The fuel vapor may dwell in the case longer, but the oil does not, as its loiter time is determined mostly by rpm.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

Franny K said:


> To quote ChrisPa
> It is a fact that a strato has maybe 20% less fuel mix moving through the case per revolution. The rest of the claims are not as clear:
> 
> This thread is about the longevity which the manufacturer uses as a design parameter. Adding in modified from stock brings in complication.


Ported saws also make more HP...


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## Paragon Builder (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The fuel vapor may dwell in the case longer, but the oil does not, as its loiter time is determined mostly by rpm.


Why is oil dwell time determined by rpm and fuel vapor not?


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## Chris-PA (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The fuel vapor may dwell in the case longer, but the oil does not, as its loiter time is determined mostly by rpm.


Could you explain your reasoning here more?

Fuel and oil are metered into the case in a continuous flow from carb/intake port to transfer port and cylinder. Neither fuel or oil can accumulate in the case to any degree. The fuel may vaporize more easily and some of the oil may condense out and stick to parts in the case, but all of it eventually passes from the case, into the cylinder and out the exhaust. This was part of my reasoning that the reduced volume of fuel/oil mix flowing through the case does not translate directly into an equivalently reduced lubrication capability. The reduced flow may well effect crank bearings, rod bearings and cylinder walls differently.


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## walexa07 (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Your not considering several things.... it is a fact a strato engine has less lubricant available to it. The strato design from a lubrication stand point are the same as a traditional two stroke.



Maybe I'm not considering several things, but you talk as though you have hours of study into this subject and are the final authority - and that there are no other possibilities, and you seem unopen to the possibility that your "concept" of how all this works may not be the be-all, end-all. Chris-PA has a very solid grasp of the concept, but you just keep repeating 20% less fuel consumption = 20% less lubrication and I don't believe that is the case. I think it's way deeper than that. If the traditional 2-stroke is 20% less efficient, that means that it was spewing more unburnt fuel mix out the exhaust, and you have no way of knowing that the extra 20% was making contact with critical internal surfaces requiring lubrication. 

I'm not here to argue, just like to learn. Just seems others offer technical explanations and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over as if you are brainwashed, lol. Don't feel bad though, I've felt I was right about stuff and argued it into the ground only to have to eat crow when I found out I was wrong. Not saying you are wrong; just saying you seem to be closed minded to other possibilities.

As far as larger sump capacities on automobiles, lots of reasons I can think of for that. One that I can think of is that mfg's are constantly trying to extend oil change intervals. 3K miles used to be the norm; now it's not uncommon to see 10K and even 15K OCI. I know some current engines due to design and running at higher temperatures suffer from sludging problems. One solution is more frequent OCI; another solution is larger sump capacity. I did not know that several of the 4 bangers are now holding 6 quarts. Which models? My wife's VW TDI 4 cylinder holds 4.5 I think. I see that the 4 cylinder in the camry 2.5 4 cylinder is 4.7 quarts. Interesting.

Waylan


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## broman78 (May 20, 2015)

I keep reading a lot of opinions but nothing has been supported with facts. We need to have the orginal poster write a 2 page paper with references listed in mla format, on why he thinks strato engine lubricate less. Then somebody on the oppossing side write a 2 page paper on why the lubricate better that tradional 2 stroke engines. This will stop slot of FOOLISHNESS on the site. 

I motion a new rule that every argument on arboristsite be supported with sound research and references. Can I get a second?


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 20, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> Maybe I'm not considering several things, but you talk as though you have hours of study into this subject and are the final authority - and that there are no other possibilities, and you seem unopen to the possibility that your "concept" of how all this works may not be the be-all, end-all. Chris-PA has a very solid grasp of the concept, but you just keep repeating 20% less fuel consumption = 20% less lubrication and I don't believe that is the case. I think it's way deeper than that. If the traditional 2-stroke is 20% less efficient, that means that it was spewing more unburnt fuel mix out the exhaust, and you have no way of knowing that the extra 20% was making contact with critical internal surfaces requiring lubrication.
> 
> I'm not here to argue, just like to learn. Just seems others offer technical explanations and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over as if you are brainwashed, lol. Don't feel bad though, I've felt I was right about stuff and argued it into the ground only to have to eat crow when I found out I was wrong. Not saying you are wrong; just saying you seem to be closed minded to other possibilities.
> 
> ...


Yeh, that's all he is able to do is talk, reading his posts it is easy to see he talks out of his rear end. He is definitely a self proclaimed expert. "This is only applicable in the chainsaw world". Says the king of the idiots!!!!


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## walexa07 (May 20, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Yeh, that's all he is able to do is talk, reading his posts it is easy to see he talks out of his rear end. He is definitely a self proclaimed expert. "This is only applicable in the chainsaw world". Says the king of the idiots!!!!



Not sure I'm comfortable with you siding with me, lol. You've come across in this thread as a real jackass. I'm not calling bwalker out, just asking for something other than repetitive regurgitation of the same thing over and over. 

Alot can be determined by the attitude a person exhibits on a forum like this. I've got alot of respect for other dealers that have been members in the past or currently. When Lakeside used to be on here, I eagerly read whatever he had to say - it was full of knowledge and you could tell he was well versed and really brought alot of helpful information to the table. Spike60 as well - he holds his tongue 95% of the time, and when he does speak it is very respectful and very knowledgeable. I like TLandrum as well. Those are the kind of guys I like to deal with. I like stihl products and think they are a good company, but if you were my dealer posting the stuff you do on here, I would consider changing dealers. Good dealers should be posting useful information to the multitudes, leaking upcoming products, have patience with those that may not understand something and be willing to break technical information down if needed. Not chest pounding, talking about how many hundreds of thousands of dollars they have made on the back of Stihl. My words here are probably wasted, and are just my opinion.

I don't like to see the arguing between Windthrown and Snelling - I've got alot of respect for both of these guys. Even though I've not modified a saw, I have a basic understanding of the timing, blowdown, etc. that is discussed. For this reason I can see why Snelling and Randy Evans both say it's a traditional saw as it is not a solid departure from traditional design like the strato design. If I degreed the saws myself I'm inclined that I would believe what I saw considering that Stihl IS guilty of rebadging old technology as something new. In Windthrown's defense, obviously Stihl has tweaked something to make this engine more efficient that requires the flow diverter, but the tweaking is so minor that it's not clearly evident and doesn't add up. I'd say the truth is somewhere between and I'd just like the guys to get along. None of THESE guys have lost any of my respect, not that my respect was worth anything to start with.

Waylan


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## fordf150 (May 20, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Are you really that stupid ? What a jackass.


just because you disagree he is a jackass....civility goes a long way in making someone see your side of the argument even if in the end they still dont agree. And name calling just makes you look bad.


i personally think they lubricate less and that there may be some longevity issues with SOME strato saws. Lots of factors likely play a role in all of this and so far from personal experience I think there are some issues but i am open to both sides and would like to be proven wrong.


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## blsnelling (May 20, 2015)

Looking at this logically, it seems to me that the bottom end of a strato saw would have to be receiving less lubrication. Oil laden fuel enters the crankcase, the fuel vaporizes, and the oil falls out of suspension. This oil is now present and available to lubricate the bottom end. Whether or not the air that carried this oil in was wasted to exhaust spent gases is irrelevant at this stage. It's in the crankcase, period. Turbulence and air flow cause this oil to migrate to the topend. It seems reasonable that this would be highly affected by RPM, which is why engines that see extended high RPM use need a heavier mix ratio. Careful tuners actually measure the amount of residual oil in the crankcase in order to determine the proper mix ratio for a given application. This will vary by engine and operator. With this thought, I would be far more hesitant to run a thinner mix ratio in a strato saw. 

These pics are of a 441, used extensively for milling, running on 50:1 Bailey's Full Synthetic. I credit a good oil with saving this saw.


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## Chris-PA (May 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> These pics are of a 441, used extensively for milling, running on 50:1 Bailey's Full Synthetic. I credit a good oil with saving this saw.


OK, but how can we tell if that was a lubrication or a cooling issue? There was clearly heat and cooked oil on the bottom of the piston - someone with experience could likely tell if lubrication contributed to that, or if the heat was due to other causes.

I don't have that knowledge/experience, but I don't see excessive wear, just cooked oil.


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## the GOAT (May 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Looking at this logically, it seems to me that the bottom end of a strato saw would have to be receiving less lubrication. Oil laden fuel enters the crankcase, the fuel vaporizes, and the oil falls out of suspension. This oil is now present and available to lubricate the bottom end. Whether or not the air that carried this oil in was wasted to exhaust spent gases is irrelevant at this stage. It's in the crankcase, period. Turbulence and air flow cause this oil to migrate to the topend. It seems reasonable that this would be highly affected by RPM, which is why engines that see extended high RPM use need a heavier mix ratio. Careful tuners actually measure the amount of residual oil in the crankcase in order to determine the proper mix ratio for a given application. This will vary by engine and operator. With this thought, I would be far more hesitant to run a thinner mix ratio in a strato saw.
> 
> These pics are of a 441, used extensively for milling, running on 50:1 Bailey's Full Synthetic. I credit a good oil with saving this saw.


I remember that thread
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/what-would-cause-this.119470/


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## blsnelling (May 20, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> OK, but how can we tell if that was a lubrication or a cooling issue? There was clearly heat and cooked oil on the bottom of the piston - someone with experience could likely tell if lubrication contributed to that, or if the heat was due to other causes.
> 
> I don't have that knowledge/experience, but I don't see excessive wear, just cooked oil.


I see sign of *LOTS* of heat. I credit a good oil for saving the saw. I believe a richer tune, limiters were still intact, and a heavier oil mix would have prevented the excessive heat this saw experienced.


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## RedFir Down (May 20, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> Not sure I'm comfortable with you siding with me, lol. You've come across in this thread as a real jackass. I'm not calling bwalker out, just asking for something other than repetitive regurgitation of the same thing over and over.
> 
> Alot can be determined by the attitude a person exhibits on a forum like this. I've got alot of respect for other dealers that have been members in the past or currently. When Lakeside used to be on here, I eagerly read whatever he had to say - it was full of knowledge and you could tell he was well versed and really brought alot of helpful information to the table. Spike60 as well - he holds his tongue 95% of the time, and when he does speak it is very respectful and very knowledgeable. I like TLandrum as well. Those are the kind of guys I like to deal with. I like stihl products and think they are a good company, but if you were my dealer posting the stuff you do on here, I would consider changing dealers. Good dealers should be posting useful information to the multitudes, leaking upcoming products, have patience with those that may not understand something and be willing to break technical information down if needed. Not chest pounding, talking about how many hundreds of thousands of dollars they have made on the back of Stihl. My words here are probably wasted, and are just my opinion.
> 
> ...


Could not have been said better!


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Looking at this logically, it seems to me that the bottom end of a strato saw would have to be receiving less lubrication. Oil laden fuel enters the crankcase, the fuel vaporizes, and the oil falls out of suspension. This oil is now present and available to lubricate the bottom end. Whether or not the air that carried this oil in was wasted to exhaust spent gases is irrelevant at this stage. It's in the crankcase, period. Turbulence and air flow cause this oil to migrate to the topend. It seems reasonable that this would be highly affected by RPM, which is why engines that see extended high RPM use need a heavier mix ratio. Careful tuners actually measure the amount of residual oil in the crankcase in order to determine the proper mix ratio for a given application. This will vary by engine and operator. With this thought, I would be far more hesitant to run a thinner mix ratio in a strato saw.
> 
> These pics are of a 441, used extensively for milling, running on 50:1 Bailey's Full Synthetic. I credit a good oil with saving this saw.


Brad gets it!


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## Chris-PA (May 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I see sign of *LOTS* of heat. I credit a good oil for saving the saw. I believe a richer tune, limiters were still intact, and a heavier oil mix would have prevented the excessive heat this saw experienced.


Ok that's probably all true, but saying good oil may have saved an overheating engine is quite different from saying that reduced oil flow from it being a strato was the cause.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

broman78 said:


> I keep reading a lot of opinions but nothing has been supported with facts. We need to have the orginal poster write a 2 page paper with references listed in mla format, on why he thinks strato engine lubricate less. Then somebody on the oppossing side write a 2 page paper on why the lubricate better that tradional 2 stroke engines. This will stop slot of FOOLISHNESS on the site.
> 
> I motion a new rule that every argument on arboristsite be supported with sound research and references. Can I get a second?


If you think that's going to happen pack sand.
The things that are argued about here are pretty well cut and dried.
It's not my job to be your educator and you shouldn't comment if you have no knowledge.


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## walexa07 (May 20, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Ok that's probably all true, but saying good oil may have saved an overheating engine is quite different from saying that reduced oil flow from it being a strato was the cause.



I agree, but I don't have enough experience to know. I would venture to guess that just tuning itself (more evaporative cooling + more oil due to richer tuning) may have been enough on it's own. That does not mean that I wouldn't be running a higher ratio of oil to fuel as I agree, but I think that's the norm when it comes to milling, especially with a 70cc saw. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a 440 or 372 with similar tune would or would not have looked the same - but to test this would take quite a bit of work. Along the lines of what Chad (I think that's his name) has done on the dyno. EGT measurements to set the tune on a non-strato and a strato of the same displacement, then run hard for the same amount of time in the same scenario (milling), and that would give you a single data point. Doesn't mean that all stratos would compare the same as there are different designs. 

I think the truth is out there, but I think the ones in the camp that believe it's as simple as stratos use less fuel so are lubricated less across the board are not 100% right. What % right they are I have no idea. 

Waylan


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> Maybe I'm not considering several things, but you talk as though you have hours of study into this subject and are the final authority - and that there are no other possibilities, and you seem unopen to the possibility that your "concept" of how all this works may not be the be-all, end-all. Chris-PA has a very solid grasp of the concept, but you just keep repeating 20% less fuel consumption = 20% less lubrication and I don't believe that is the case. I think it's way deeper than that. If the traditional 2-stroke is 20% less efficient, that means that it was spewing more unburnt fuel mix out the exhaust, and you have no way of knowing that the extra 20% was making contact with critical internal surfaces requiring lubrication.
> 
> I'm not here to argue, just like to learn. Just seems others offer technical explanations and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over as if you are brainwashed, lol. Don't feel bad though, I've felt I was right about stuff and argued it into the ground only to have to eat crow when I found out I was wrong. Not saying you are wrong; just saying you seem to be closed minded to other possibilities.
> 
> ...





walexa07 said:


> Maybe I'm not considering several things, but you talk as though you have hours of study into this subject and are the final authority - and that there are no other possibilities, and you seem unopen to the possibility that your "concept" of how all this works may not be the be-all, end-all. Chris-PA has a very solid grasp of the concept, but you just keep repeating 20% less fuel consumption = 20% less lubrication and I don't believe that is the case. I think it's way deeper than that. If the traditional 2-stroke is 20% less efficient, that means that it was spewing more unburnt fuel mix out the exhaust, and you have no way of knowing that the extra 20% was making contact with critical internal surfaces requiring lubrication.
> 
> I'm not here to argue, just like to learn. Just seems others offer technical explanations and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over as if you are brainwashed, lol. Don't feel bad though, I've felt I was right about stuff and argued it into the ground only to have to eat crow when I found out I was wrong. Not saying you are wrong; just saying you seem to be closed minded to other possibilities.
> 
> ...


The subjects being argued about here are tantamount to arguing the earth is round. Pretty simple stuff.
And do realised a traditional two stroke deposits it's the vast majority of its oil in the crankcase as soon as the fuel air mix enters. You are not considering this, nor.oil.migration times and what effects them.in your argument.


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## walexa07 (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Brad gets it!



I think anybody that agrees with you on this will automatically fall into your "smart" category. And anybody that disagrees doesn't know what they're talking about, lol. I think I am in the latter, but that's ok. All this is good food for thought. Seems us chainsawers just like to overthink everything and I enjoy it. It's like oil threads, bar threads, stihl versus husky, autotune versus mtronic. Any decent model, regardless of manufacturer, when tuned correctly, and run at mfg specified ratios, even with ethanol fuel, will typically perform adequately. If the less oil available in strato saws is true, with so few failing I'd have to think that there was simply too much oil available on the original non-strato saws. 

Question to the builders - Brad is the main builder remaining active in this thread - when you tear down strato saws for porting or whatever, do you typically see an oil coating similar to what you would find in a non-strato saw of similar size? I know this can depend on mix ratio and tune as well, but just wondering. I've seen pics of saws torn down with a nice layer of oil coating most of the internal surfaces - is this typically not the case on strato saws?

Waylan


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## walexa07 (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The subjects being argued about here are tantamount to arguing the earth is round. Pretty simple stuff.
> And do realised a traditional two stroke deposits it's the vast majority of its oil in the crankcase as soon as the fuel air mix enters. You are not considering this, nor.oil.migration times and what effects them.in your argument.



Ok this response from you is more informative than most of your other posts in this thread - elaborate more. Clearly you have had some deep thoughts on it all. Rather than just say 20% less fuel through the saw means less lubrication.

Waylan


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## Franny K (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> It's not my job to be your educator



Seems like there are folks that want to trick others to take on that role and often it seems they are doing it for amusement.


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## blsnelling (May 20, 2015)

Most of the saws I build are new.


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## walexa07 (May 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Most of the saws I build are new.



The 441 that had been used for milling - did the crankcase and piston seem dryer than normal? Or when you've tried a saw out for several cuts and gone back in for tweaking did you notice anything then? Just wondering.

Thanks,

Waylan


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## blsnelling (May 20, 2015)

That was 6 years ago. I don't remember.


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## svk (May 20, 2015)

svk said:


> Alright gents, there have been some complaints about this thread. Lets keep things cordial in here. Thanks.


Apparently some couldn't keep it cordial. If this thread gets flagged again there's going to be trips to camp for the offending parties and the thread is getting zapped. I don't like to lay it out that bluntly but apparently my first request was ignored. 

Carry on men.


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## windthrown (May 20, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> The emissions limits thus far are mainly intended to prevent puking raw fuel out the exhaust, which mainly comes from two sources: The scavenging losses inherent to 2-strokes, and the poor mixture control of the carbs which go rich enough to cause misfire with only a small increase in air velocity. On top of that there is an emission credit scheme, so not every saw must meet the same limits. It looks to me like addressing one of these main sources gets one pretty close, and there are many strato saws with conventional carbs.
> 
> The cooling kickup was always the best evidence that there was something to the claims of exhaust delayed scavenging, but the fact that they are putting fresh air strato systems on their high volume saws says it may not be enough across the product line. The purpose of delayed scavenging is simply to reduce the time that fuel is in the combustion chamber while the exhaust port is open, and I suspect that the exhaust delayed scavenging may create some delay, but shorter than that of a full fresh air strato system (this is indicated by the attached document which describes an attempt to model the transfer flow in a Husqvarna strato). It may be enough when combined with a feedback carb on some of their saws, given that the high volume units are now fresh air strato, often combined with a feedback carb. So you are correct that the effect is "subtle" - perhaps "minimal" would likely be a better term.
> 
> ...



Well, for one I have tossed Brad into my ignore list, at the request of management. STD is also in my ignore list, as he is reminiscent of the Ape (who's more recent renditions have also been sent to band camp, along with STD it appears). I am used to controversy, as I am constantly challenged on my ideas by marketing, competitive engineering departments, and other engineering 'gurus'. I actually have used this to great benefit in the my career. I invite all my enemies to my design reviews, because they have a keen interest in finding flaws in my designs. Better for me to find flaws early than to have them go into production and fail. My designs and methods have been for the most part highly successful. Here on this debate however these are not my designs, and I have nothing to gain or lose by Stihl having the 461 work one way or the other. I have no horse in this race. However, I believe what I believe, like it or not.

At any rate, for simplicity I will label Stihl Pre-EPA non-scavenged saws as "N-S", air scavenged strato saws as "A-S" and exhaust or delayed scavenged saws here as "E-S." You say that the A-S saws have no more moving parts, but in the carb and linkage assembly they actually do. At least on my 441 and my 211 they do where they have a separate air valve for the air intake below the fuel air intake. They also have more complex porting in the castings. Both drive up costs and make the design more complex. They are also bulkier and heavier, both of which are critical factors in chainsaws. Another drawback of A-S saws is that (at least on A-S that I own and have run) they are cold blooded pigs and require a lot of feathering when they are cold started. The E-S saws remove the added linkage and carb complexity, remove the requirement for fresh air ports in the castings, are lighter, less bulky, and they start and run a hell of a lot better when they are cold. Advantage: E-S saws.

As for the gas savings and lower smog factors on A-S saws, I believe the same applies to the E-S saws, and that the exhaust banding or buffering in E-S saws is larger than you imply. In principal, the effects are the same in either saw; a buffer layer of fresh air or a buffer layer of exhaust between fuel charges keeps raw fuel from being dumped out into the exhaust before the exhaust port closes. The builders all point to port timing, but that is not where the exhaust scavenging comes from. Exhaust scavenging comes from the pressure differential that draws exhaust into the transfers when the transfers first open. That exhaust then leads the fuel charge when the pressure flips on the later downstroke, and is dumped into the muffler instead of raw fuel. That in turn makes the E-S saws more efficient and less polluting than N-S saws. It may not be as significant as A-S saws (I do not have the smog numbers handy), but it is not trivial and it is not all smoke and mirrors as is implied here.


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## blsnelling (May 20, 2015)

windthrown said:


> The builders all point to port timing, but that is not where the exhaust scavenging comes from. Exhaust scavenging comes from the pressure differential that draws exhaust into the transfers when the transfers first open. That then leads the fuel charge and thus exhaust is dumped into the muffler instead of raw fuel.


Please explain how the 461 or 661 can do this if port timing is relatively unchanged from a 460 and 660. If it's happening in the prior, then it's happening on the later. That's all I ask.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

Franny K said:


> Seems like there are folks that want to trick others to take on that role and often it seems they are doing it for amusement.


Or just intellectually lazy.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Please explain how the 461 or 661 can do this if port timing is relatively unchanged from a 460 and 660. If it's happening in the prior, then it's happening on the later. That's all I ask.


Haven't owned the Stihls in question. Do they actually run cleaner than previous versions? Strato saws don't even smell like a two stroke once they are warmed up so it should be apparent.


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## bwalker (May 20, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Well, for one I have tossed Brad into my ignore list, at the request of management. STD is also in my ignore list, as he is reminiscent of the Ape (who's more recent renditions have also been sent to band camp, along with STD it appears). I am used to controversy, as I am constantly challenged on my ideas by marketing, competitive engineering departments, and other engineering 'gurus'. I actually have used this to great benefit in the my career. I invite all my enemies to my design reviews, because they have a keen interest in finding flaws in my designs. Better for me to find flaws early than to have them go into production and fail. My designs and methods have been for the most part highly successful. Here on this debate however these are not my designs, and I have nothing to gain or lose by Stihl having the 461 work one way or the other. I have no horse in this race. However, I believe what I believe, like it or not.
> 
> At any rate, for simplicity I will label Stihl Pre-EPA non-scavenged saws as "N-S", air scavenged strato saws as "A-S" and exhaust or delayed scavenged saws here as "E-S." You say that the A-S saws have no more moving parts, but in the carb and linkage assembly they actually do. At least on my 441 and my 211 they do where they have a separate air valve for the air intake below the fuel air intake. They also have more complex porting in the castings. Both drive up costs and make the design more complex. They are also bulkier and heavier, both of which are critical factors in chainsaws. Another drawback of A-S saws is that (at least on A-S that I own and have run) they are cold blooded pigs and require a lot of feathering when they are cold started. The E-S saws remove the added linkage and carb complexity, remove the requirement for fresh air ports in the castings, are lighter, less bulky, and they start and run a hell of a lot better when they are cold. Advantage: E-S saws.
> 
> As for the gas savings and lower smog factors on A-S saws, I believe the same applies to the E-S saws, and that the exhaust banding or buffering in E-S saws is larger than you imply. In principal, the effects are the same in either saw; a buffer layer of fresh air or a buffer layer of exhaust between fuel charges keeps raw fuel from being dumped out into the exhaust before the exhaust port closes. The builders all point to port timing, but that is not where the exhaust scavenging comes from. Exhaust scavenging comes from the pressure differential that draws exhaust into the transfers when the transfers first open. That exhaust then leads the fuel charge when the pressure flips on the later downstroke, and is dumped into the muffler instead of raw fuel. That in turn makes the E-S saws more efficient and less polluting than N-S saws. It may not be as significant as A-S saws (I do not have the smog numbers handy), but it is not trivial and it is not all smoke and mirrors as is implied here.


In would be curious if the crankcase volume has changed appreciably from previous models. Lower primary compression might cause the effect you describe. Lower primary compression also lends itself to wider power curves.


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## Trx250r180 (May 20, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Haven't owned the Stihls in question. Do they actually run cleaner than previous versions? Strato saws don't even smell like a two stroke once they are warmed up so it should be apparent.


Once modded ,the 461 is a gas hog ,not sure about stock


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## Chris-PA (May 20, 2015)

windthrown said:


> You say that the A-S saws have no more moving parts, but in the carb and linkage assembly they actually do. At least on my 441 and my 211 they do where they have a separate air valve for the air intake below the fuel air intake.


As I said before, the separate air valve is not used on some newer fresh air stratos (like the MS241 and 543XP). Instead the carb has two flow paths, one which picks up fuel and one that does not (which is only a minor mod over a standard carb with choke plate), and a common throttle plate. There are no additional moving parts in this version, although you lose the ability to vary port timing and there is some mixing of fuel into the strato ports for throttle angles less than WOT.


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## tree monkey (May 21, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Please explain how the 461 or 661 can do this if port timing is relatively unchanged from a 460 and 660. If it's happening in the prior, then it's happening on the later. That's all I ask.



long transfer runners hold the exhaust
short transfer runners allows it to mix
if husky would have raised the transfers on the old 372's, they would have achieved the same thing


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## tree monkey (May 21, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> The 441 that had been used for milling - did the crankcase and piston seem dryer than normal? Or when you've tried a saw out for several cuts and gone back in for tweaking did you notice anything then? Just wondering.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Waylan



bottom end is oily, piston is dry, from what I have seen
coking of the piston on most of them.


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## tree monkey (May 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Once modded ,the 461 is a gas hog ,not sure about stock



depends on the porting


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## tree monkey (May 21, 2015)

bwalker said:


> In would be curious if the crankcase volume has changed appreciably from previous models. Lower primary compression might cause the effect you describe. Lower primary compression also lends itself to wider power curves.



461 has a larger case then a 460


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## blsnelling (May 21, 2015)

Thanks Scott.


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## heyduke (May 21, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> As I said before, the separate air valve is not used on some newer fresh air stratos (like the MS241 and 543XP). Instead the carb has two flow paths, one which picks up fuel and one that does not (which is only a minor mod over a standard carb with choke plate), and a common throttle plate. There are no additional moving parts in this version, although you lose the ability to vary port timing and there is some mixing of fuel into the strato ports for throttle angles less than WOT.



chris-pa-

this tread got me to looking at the "xtorq" 372. from what i can see in the ipl, it lacks the separate fresh air intakes and has an ordinary _looking_ carb. however the carb is different from the non-strato 372 and its walbro model number has a prefix of "DP" which i assume stands for "dual path." i've never worked on one of these so i'm really just guessing.

also, if the hypothesis, "stratified charge saws don't get enuff oil" was supported by experimental data, the dumpsters would be full of smoked chainsaws. the only data shown here is that davey tree's stihl 362's have a lot of failures and early husky 575 had some crank bearing failures, a problem that was corrected. it's been more than ten years since this technology came to market. you'll have to pry my 575 from my cold, dead hands. and it may kill me because it runs so long on a tank of mix i never get a break.


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## Stephen C. (May 21, 2015)

heyduke said:


> chris-pa-
> 
> this tread got me to looking at the "xtorq" 372. from what i can see in the ipl, it lacks the separate fresh air intakes and has an ordinary _looking_ carb. however the carb is different from the non-strato 372 and its walbro model number has a prefix of "DP" which i assume stands for "dual path." i've never worked on one of these so i'm really just guessing.
> 
> also, if the hypothesis, "stratified charge saws don't get enuff oil" was supported by experimental data, the dumpsters would be full of smoked chainsaws. the only data shown here is that davey tree's stihl 362's have a lot of failures and early husky 575 had some crank bearing failures, a problem that was corrected. it's been more than ten years since this technology came to market. you'll have to pry my 575 from my cold, dead hands. and it may kill me because it runs so long on a tank of mix i never get a break.


If one is concerned that the strato saw is not getting enough lubrication because of the lower fuel consumption the easy fix is tune it to run on 32:1 if it is a 40:1 saw or 40:1 if it is a 50:1 saw.


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## Chris-PA (May 21, 2015)

heyduke said:


> chris-pa-
> 
> this tread got me to looking at the "xtorq" 372. from what i can see in the ipl, it lacks the separate fresh air intakes and has an ordinary _looking_ carb. however the carb is different from the non-strato 372 and its walbro model number has a prefix of "DP" which i assume stands for "dual path." i've never worked on one of these so i'm really just guessing.
> 
> also, if the hypothesis, "stratified charge saws don't get enuff oil" was supported by experimental data, the dumpsters would be full of smoked chainsaws. the only data shown here is that davey tree's stihl 362's have a lot of failures and early husky 575 had some crank bearing failures, a problem that was corrected. it's been more than ten years since this technology came to market. you'll have to pry my 575 from my cold, dead hands. and it may kill me because it runs so long on a tank of mix i never get a break.


The dual path carbs are pretty simple - take a regular saw carb with a built in choke, open the choke and throttle full and look down the opening. You'll see that the main and idle fuel outlets are all on one side of the plates, and there is a pretty small gap between the choke and throttle plates. I seriously doubt much fuel ends up in the air flow path on the top side of the those plates, but it doesn't matter as they are set up to work that way and both paths mix together after the throttle plate anyway.

Now take that carb and add a fin to fill in that small gap between the plates, and feed the outlet into a manifold that is split and has a divider that matches up to the throttle plate when it is open - now the two flow paths are really separated, and one feeds the strato inlet while the other feeds fuel mix into the case.


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## bwalker (May 21, 2015)

heyduke said:


> chris-pa-
> 
> this tread got me to looking at the "xtorq" 372. from what i can see in the ipl, it lacks the separate fresh air intakes and has an ordinary _looking_ carb. however the carb is different from the non-strato 372 and its walbro model number has a prefix of "DP" which i assume stands for "dual path." i've never worked on one of these so i'm really just guessing.
> 
> also, if the hypothesis, "stratified charge saws don't get enuff oil" was supported by experimental data, the dumpsters would be full of smoked chainsaws. the only data shown here is that davey tree's stihl 362's have a lot of failures and early husky 575 had some crank bearing failures, a problem that was corrected. it's been more than ten years since this technology came to market. you'll have to pry my 575 from my cold, dead hands. and it may kill me because it runs so long on a tank of mix i never get a break.


I don't think anyone said that stray say don't get enough oil. They do see much less lubrication so its natural to ask if this effects longetivity.


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## walexa07 (May 21, 2015)

bwalker said:


> I don't think anyone said that stray say don't get enough oil. They do see much less lubrication so its natural to ask if this effects longetivity.



They see an average of 20% less throughput.........I'll agree to that. 

Are you saying that the fuel mix at say 40:1 that enters the cases of strato and non-strato saws, remains 40:1 in the non-strato saws and changes to 50:1 or so for the strato saws? 

I think from Scott's observation of the bottom end being oily and the piston being dryer, is due to more air (not air/fuel) through the transfers and across the piston, but the bottom end is doesn't get this drying effect. 

I'm no expert, way over my head and probably sticking my foot in my mouth.


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## bwalker (May 21, 2015)

walexa07 said:


> They see an average of 20% less throughput.........I'll agree to that.
> 
> Are you saying that the fuel mix at say 40:1 that enters the cases of strato and non-strato saws, remains 40:1 in the non-strato saws and changes to 50:1 or so for the strato saws?
> 
> ...


That's not what I said at all. Go back and read what I wrote. I spelled it out plainly.


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## Tor R (May 21, 2015)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not a fanboy, just a good dealer who knows and sells the best. And not calling names,just stating the clearly obvious. Stihl has no competition, they are the competition, not single other brand can touch their sales numbers, not even close.And FYI, I own/ run Stihl, echo , and jonsered.........


You more sound like a little brat who got the chance to run dad's chainsaw this weekend, unfortunately for Stihl it was a Stihl saw.


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## svk (May 21, 2015)

Tor R said:


> You more sound like a little brat who got the chance to run dad's chainsaw this weekend, unfortunately for Stihl it was a Stihl saw.


He can't answer you, so let this argument slide.....


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## Hedgerow (May 21, 2015)

Not sure if this has been covered, but the 365 XT's are not holding up as well as the old school 365's in a production environment. 
And no, these guys don't take real good care of them. Might be the strato, but might be the fact the strato piston weighs a ton... 
That's all I have..


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## bwalker (May 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Not sure if this has been covered, but the 365 XT's are not holding up as well as the old school 365's in a production environment.
> And no, these guys don't take real good care of them. Might be the strato, but might be the fact the strato piston weighs a ton...
> That's all I have..


Interesting. What sort of commercial work are they doing with 365's?


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## Hedgerow (May 21, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Interesting. What sort of commercial work are they doing with 365's?


Logging...
They cheap...


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## fordf150 (May 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Logging...
> They cheap...


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## bwalker (May 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Logging...
> They cheap...


Never seen that saw used in the woods up here.


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## Hedgerow (May 21, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Never seen that saw used in the woods up here.


Why not? 
The timber ain't that big up there is it?


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## tree monkey (May 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Logging...
> They junk...



fixed it for ya


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## Hedgerow (May 21, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> fixed it for ya


Yeah, they don't make 365's like they used to...



Literally....
XT...
Not a fan..


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## Justsaws (May 21, 2015)

The 365XTs were good source for case halves and clutches, for the most part they were barely used.


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## Hedgerow (May 21, 2015)

Lol


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## Big_Wood (May 21, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Not sure if this has been covered, but the 365 XT's are not holding up as well as the old school 365's in a production environment.
> And no, these guys don't take real good care of them. Might be the strato, but might be the fact the strato piston weighs a ton...
> That's all I have..



to be honest i am not a fan of the XT compared to the OE as well. that said i know of a few 372XT's used on the coast with more then 2 years on them that still run. not sure what those guys in MO are doing to them with those little 24" bars LOL but here they are running 33" average and i have even seen them with a 42" once in a while (crazy i know but fallers don't know any better). so far what i am seeing is they last just as long as an OE 372. just a stupid heavy piston like you say making them sluggish. there is no denying the snap of the OE 372. the XT is still a very usable saw and i'll take it before the comparable stihl anyday.


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## Andyshine77 (May 22, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> to be honest i am not a fan of the XT compared to the OE as well. that said i know of a few 372XT's used on the coast with more then 2 years on them that still run. not sure what those guys in MO are doing to them with those little 24" bars LOL but here they are running 33" average and i have even seen them with a 42" once in a while (crazy i know but fallers don't know any better). so far what i am seeing is they last just as long as an OE 372. just a stupid heavy piston like you say making them sluggish. there is no denying the snap of the OE 372. the XT is still a very usable saw and i'll take it before the comparable stihl anyday.



The XT 365/372's are fine, but suffer from people not tuning them properly, trying to get the same rpm's the old saws had. Tune to 13,000 or a little less and they will run fine. That's where all the failures came from. Small bar, too many rpm's, with a heavy piston, = boom. The way most so called professionals run and maintain their equipment is amazingly pathetic.


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## bwalker (May 22, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The XT 365/372's are fine, but suffer from people not tuning them properly, trying to get the same rpm's the old saws had. Tune to 13,000 or a little less and they will run fine. That's where all the failures came from. Small bar, too many rpm's, with a heavy piston, = boom. The way most so called professionals run and maintain their equipment is amazingly pathetic.


What makes the piston so heavy?


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## Chris-PA (May 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> What makes the piston so heavy?


Strato pistons are generally taller to make room for the extra channels for the strato air channel.


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## Hedgerow (May 22, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The XT 365/372's are fine, but suffer from people not tuning them properly, trying to get the same rpm's the old saws had. Tune to 13,000 or a little less and they will run fine. That's where all the failures came from. Small bar, too many rpm's, with a heavy piston, = boom. The way most so called professionals run and maintain their equipment is amazingly pathetic.


The last one I sent out of the shop, I tuned fatter than normal..
Talked to Bill the other day, and it's still kicking and has not been stolen or run over yet.. So we shall see if this one will actually make it to it's 2nd birthday...
Note:
I had to remove limiters to get it enough fuel for my liking.


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## Chris-PA (May 22, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> The last one I sent out of the shop, I tuned fatter than normal..
> Talked to Bill the other day, and it's still kicking and has not been stolen or run over yet.. So we shall see if this one will actually make it to it's 2nd birthday...
> Note:
> I had to remove limiters to get it enough fuel for my liking.


I did not know that worked to prevent saw theft!


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## Hedgerow (May 22, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I did not know that worked to prevent saw theft!


Lol...
Just not being a creamsickle helps that around here..
If ya really want it safe in the back of the truck, Paint it green!!!


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## Andyshine77 (May 22, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Strato pistons are generally taller to make room for the extra channels for the strato air channel.


Exactly! They have a lot more meat than a standard piston as well.


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## bwalker (May 22, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Strato pistons are generally taller to make room for the extra channels for the strato air channel.


Gotcha.


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## bwalker (May 22, 2015)

The 365 XT uses the same jug as a 372 xt?


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## Trx250r180 (May 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The 365 XT uses the same jug as a 372 xt?


yes ,i believe there is a restrictor plate on the 365 to de power it,a little grinding on the plate and you have a 372 ,same bore on both saws


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## Hedgerow (May 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> The 365 XT uses the same jug as a 372 xt?


Correct...
They altered the transfers to de-tune the 365XT.


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## bwalker (May 22, 2015)

O


Hedgerow said:


> Correct...
> They altered the transfers to de-tune the 365XT.


I take it they have removable transfer port covers?


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## Trx250r180 (May 22, 2015)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/project-stumpbroke-365xt.210321/

A thread stumpy did ,has some good info


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## bwalker (May 22, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/project-stumpbroke-365xt.210321/
> 
> A thread stumpy did ,has some good info


Sounds like a cheap way to get into a 372.


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## Trx250r180 (May 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Sounds like a cheap way to get into a 372.


I believe they are the same saw ,365 is cheaper to buy ,just pop the plate off ,remove the baffle and instant 372


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## CR888 (May 22, 2015)

Nothing wrong with a 365 if you know how to make it 372 spec. Even the way they are is respectable and can be had quite a bit cheaper than the xp372. Don't forget the 365 has been around many moons longer than husky wanted it to be, there must be a reason for this. l have a nice tripple nickel and sure its a detuned 562 but build quality is the same and you get an all orange saw and not the grey clutch cover. You also get a small bar mount so you can run smaller lighter bars.


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## Hedgerow (May 22, 2015)

CR888 said:


> Nothing wrong with a 365 if you know how to make it 372 spec. Even the way they are is respectable and can be had quite a bit cheaper than the xp372. Don't forget the 365 has been around many moons longer than husky wanted it to be, there must be a reason for this. l have a nice tripple nickel and sure its a detuned 562 but build quality is the same and you get an all orange saw and not the grey clutch cover. You also get a small bar mount so you can run smaller lighter bars.


Mind you, this is only my opinion..
But the true quad port 365 special is a way better saw than the 372xt even at 65cc.
With relative ease, they can be made to where anyone without a stopwatch can't tell the difference...
Except they'll last longer...
Just my opinion..


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## Hedgerow (May 22, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Sounds like a cheap way to get into a 372.


Yes, cheap..
Thus, this particular crew runs em'.


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## bwalker (May 23, 2015)

bwalker said:


> Sounds like a cheap way to get into a 372.





Hedgerow said:


> Yes, cheap..
> Thus, this particular crew runs em'.


There was a time when you couldn't pry a 372 out of my hands. However, IMO the new 562 I have is a much better saw for assorted reasons. Hopefully Husky comes up with a 70cc version.


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## Hedgerow (May 23, 2015)

bwalker said:


> There was a time when you couldn't pry a 372 out of my hands. However, IMO the new 562 I have is a much better saw for assorted reasons. Hopefully Husky comes up with a 70cc version.


I agree.. Got one muh self..

I wouldn't let the gorillas use it though..

Too nice for them..


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## Tor R (May 23, 2015)

I know my two 372 OE will be keepers when I get the chance to finish them!
One ring piston and non ETA versions.


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## bikemike (Jun 22, 2017)

bwalker said:


> Husky buying up Redmax was a great move because it netted them all their Strato related patents.


That why the new top handle saw kinda sux


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