# Untying knots



## Garfield (Oct 7, 2008)

I had a 1/2 inch double braid line I put a lot of pressure on and could not get the knot undone. I put it in the vise and pecked on it with a small hammer. The knot almost fell apart. I was amazed. Now everyone can get on here and tell me that all good tree guys know this.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 7, 2008)

2 pairs of vice grips work good too.


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## chainsaw1 (Oct 7, 2008)

A knot is only good if you can untie it. Bowline is a fine knot also a clove works very well.


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## appalachianarbo (Oct 7, 2008)

I've been known to use a rock or carabiner to beat my knots out...

If I know there will be a big load on a knot, and it's practical, I'll shove a stick in the knot somewhere before it gets loaded. Wiggle that stick, and it comes undone


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 7, 2008)

appalachianarbo said:


> I've been known to use a rock or carabiner to beat my knots out...
> 
> If I know there will be a big load on a knot, and it's practical, I'll shove a stick in the knot somewhere before it gets loaded. Wiggle that stick, and it comes undone



That's the same thing we do, usually when pulling with something.


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## Garfield (Oct 7, 2008)

*Butterfly*

It was a butterfly knot. I like the stick idea before loading.


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## TimberMcPherson (Oct 8, 2008)

I find beating them all over with a felling hammer works well most of the time.


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## clearance (Oct 8, 2008)

Never have had a problem untying a bowline, even after some real hard pulls, like with a bucket truck or big excavator.


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## Night Owle (Oct 8, 2008)

I use a long tapered punch (sometimes called a Fid) to
separate the Knot components being careful not to
damage the rope , but what I find that really works
the best is to not put My ropes in that situation....
My 2 cents.........

Night Owle.......


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 8, 2008)

It is all in how you dress and set.

The worry point of a knot is that turn that is most likely to unload. On a bo'lin it is on the "top". This is where using a follow through comes in handy. It will make this turn wider and more pliable. I find a double bo'lin works well in heavy loading also.











Above is has a Yosemite follow-through

Note the tail runs fair with the working end of the rope. Knots are logical and can be expressed in several ways. The bo'lin has four, left right, up and down. Left and right are more mathematical parsing, but up and down determines if the knot tails into it's self, or out of it's self. For this reason some call them inside and outside bo'lin's






So prior to the Yos-follow through you have an inside bo'lin,

If you see me at the Expo, ask me about the Daisy-Chain Bo'lin (DCB). I've never had it lock, no matter how much we pull.

I've actually seen a rope break pulling, and it was not at the knot bend either. the DCB pulled apart easily.


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## Dave (Oct 8, 2008)

That's why I replaced the butterfly with a BOAB for mid-line block attachment. Nothing says professionalism like beating and kicking and yelling at a knot that you just looked so cool tying.


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## Garfield (Oct 8, 2008)

*midline knot*

Is the bowline usable as a midline knot?


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## Ghillie (Oct 8, 2008)

Garfield said:


> Is the bowline usable as a midline knot?



No it isn't.

Best mid-line in my opinion is a butterfly knot. A figure-eight will work depending on how you are loading the knot and if you also need loading forces to go through it.


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## Ghillie (Oct 8, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> It sure is!
> 
> http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlin...ge=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com



How do you tie it midline?

EDIT: I stand corrected. I had completely forgot about using it that way, I have used it on a bight to make a harness in the past.


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## Groundman One (Oct 8, 2008)

The bowline is our master knot for all occassions. Never had one come undone _(thank you Lord)_ and never had one we couldn't undo.

Mind you, my climber tends to tie them with the tail to the outside, which, I read, reduces the holding power by half.

_Edit: Nice link for the knots, TreeCo, thank you._


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## 2FatGuys (Oct 8, 2008)

I prefer the butterfly rather than the BOAB if both ends of the line are going to be loaded. The tight bends put in each end where it croses the bight of the BOAB create high friction points that seem to load the knot unevenly. The butterfly is a symetrical knot that loads equally from both sides.


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## LTREES (Oct 8, 2008)

appalachianarbo said:


> I've been known to use a rock or carabiner to beat my knots out...
> 
> If I know there will be a big load on a knot, and it's practical, I'll shove a stick in the knot somewhere before it gets loaded. Wiggle that stick, and it comes undone



Same here if I have alot of heavy pulling to do, but I use a 12" piece of pvc. Pulls right out and the knot comes apart easy.:greenchainsaw:


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## Garfield (Oct 8, 2008)

*size of the pvc*

Is this 3/4 inch pipe? Does it matter that it's not tapered or it still just pulls right out?


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## 2FatGuys (Oct 8, 2008)

We use any convenient piece of wood when we add a "peg" to the knot. But choosing the right knots is a better solution, rather than "pegging" an incorrect knot. If the peg comes out, there is a greater chance of failure from shock loading the knot.


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## Ghillie (Oct 8, 2008)

2FatGuys said:


> We use any convenient piece of wood when we add a "peg" to the knot. But choosing the right knots is a better solution, rather than "pegging" an incorrect knot. If the peg comes out, there is a greater chance of failure from shock loading the knot.



:agree2: Plus your changing how the knot cinches down possibly changing the efficiency and failing strength.

I don't have any hard data to back it up though.


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## blewgrass (Oct 15, 2008)

*i know i'm a newbie but...*

i've been lurking for awhile and i figured i'd jump on this thread. i work on boats quite a bit and when i know that a bowline is going to be under tons of stress i tie what i've always known as a swedish bowline. i tried searching for a pic, but i couldn't find one. i'll try to take a pic of one and post it, but for me it's easiest to tie it by making a clove hitch and then passing the bitter end of the rope through it as a typical bowline would be tied. then, spread out the two loops of the clove hitch to spread the load on the line. i know it probably makes no sense, but i'll try to get a pic posted. thanks for the site, it's great to be here!


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## Ghillie (Oct 15, 2008)

Blewgrass, welcome to the site.

Interesting variation of the bowline. I wonder if any tests have been done to see how they compare to the standard bowline?

Video of the swedish bowline. It's at the end.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 15, 2008)

As far as i know a Swedish Bowline to me, is a Water Bowline; the your prescription sounds slightly different. But then the water use too..

Mostly i prefer a DBY or Double Bowline with a Yosemite Tie Off. This is where instead of just a Turn maid for the Half Hitch, you make a Round Turn. This will cause the same bend in the Standing; but over a longer distance (so less impacting change). Then the Yosemite Tie Off as shown by JP(which also leaves a clean, more serviceable eye IMLHO). This also presents more security in the Round Turn (and in Yosemite too). But in stiffer lines, the 2nd tier can werk against ye, by giving a higher leverage pull point to invert!! A Swedish(?)/Water Bowline would have a Clove Instead of the Turn/Round Turn that is powered by the Standing tension to bite 2x on the bight in Bitters. Both i think are easier maid with Slip Knot Method(as above). This should be Jacked if using in retrievable Bowline for like floating a pulley. Whereby, in a normal Bowline the locking pulls are inline to the length of the line, in the retrievable the locking pulls are across the length of the line (so for reverse forces, use reverse mechanics..)

A Butterfly(flash) can jam, but mostly when you load just 1 end to the eye, or eye more or first IMLHO. i think by construction, a Butterfly(page) should be loaded end to end, pulling evenly one these legs, and leaving the eye as an isolated/injured part of line. Now we can pull from that eye too, but point is that the end legs should be loaded first and most. Which gives sum theoretical problems with 3:1 jig, but at least then there is some loading pulling to the legs to create the proper tensions.

Knots pounded or pryed apart; should make that rope more questionable; especially when stiff or deformed parts result. Softer is better, and perhaps prying with marlin type spikes best.


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## blewgrass (Oct 16, 2008)

thanks for the video ghillie. yeah, that's it at about 2:13 in the video.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 16, 2008)

Hey Look Kenny's back!

Hi Kenny!


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## treemandan (Oct 16, 2008)

I find singing " If I Had A Hammer" whilst I beat my 400 dollar bullrope to a pulp works well.
The Dan's midline anchor knot of choice? Why the clove of course! Like John said" It all in how you dress it"
But really folks don't abide by what I do, The butterfly is for you.


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## treemandan (Oct 16, 2008)

2FatGuys said:


> We use any convenient piece of wood when we add a "peg" to the knot. But choosing the right knots is a better solution, rather than "pegging" an incorrect knot. If the peg comes out, there is a greater chance of failure from shock loading the knot.



They make a smooth metal " bone" to use in place of the stick which, by the way, I have long since abandoned. I use sticks to cook hot dogs in the clients chimnea. One of the groundies doubles as " cookie" and he starts the fire at a quarter to 12. One time he set the clients glass coffee pot on fire, it was real cold out and he was trying to keep it hot.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 17, 2008)

My brother, my friend, i hope all is well with ye and y'ours;
Is it cold enough up thar (of course i'm speaking geographically) yet for ya?


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## Ghillie (Oct 17, 2008)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> As far as i know a Swedish Bowline to me, is a Water Bowline; the your prescription sounds slightly different. But then the water use too..
> 
> Mostly i prefer a DBY or Double Bowline with a Yosemite Tie Off. This is where instead of just a Turn maid for the Half Hitch, you make a Round Turn. This will cause the same bend in the Standing; but over a longer distance (so less impacting change). Then the Yosemite Tie Off as shown by JP(which also leaves a clean, more serviceable eye IMLHO). This also presents more security in the Round Turn (and in Yosemite too). But in stiffer lines, the 2nd tier can werk against ye, by giving a higher leverage pull point to invert!! A Swedish(?)/Water Bowline would have a Clove Instead of the Turn/Round Turn that is powered by the Standing tension to bite 2x on the bight in Bitters. Both i think are easier maid with Slip Knot Method(as above). This should be Jacked if using in retrievable Bowline for like floating a pulley. Whereby, in a normal Bowline the locking pulls are inline to the length of the line, in the retrievable the locking pulls are across the length of the line (so for reverse forces, use reverse mechanics..)
> 
> ...



I agree with the correct loading order on the butterfly. A knot isn't tied untill it is correctly dressed. 

Anytime I need to use pliers or pound a knot to get it apart, I consider the rope for utility use only (downgrade it).

Be safe,

Fred


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## Marquis (Oct 17, 2008)

BOAB sure is a great midline knot. You've just got to make sure you dress it good. I use it all the time, and comes undone really good under excessive loads.


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## pdqdl (Oct 17, 2008)

*The best midline knot I have found*

When I was in Boy Scouts, an advanced course I was in at camp taught us the "pioneer knot", which was supposedly used by the pioneers to create a midline knot to use as a pulley to haul loads. 

I use this for all mid-line knots to pull a load. It holds well in all directions, but like the bowline, can fail if not set correctly. It ties in about 10 seconds without even hurrying, so it is very easy to make.

I have tried to find this knot on-line any number of times, but so far I have been unsuccessful. I even bought the Ashley book of knots to find this one, and so far I haven't located it in the book.

It's big advantage is that it holds well in all directions, is very easy to tie, and does NOT bind up when loaded. I will look for this knot one more time, and if I can't find it anywhere, I'll make my own video. *Maybe someone will know this knot by another name.*

Verbally, here is how to tie: 

1. form a vertical loop with 1/2 twist.
2. flop it down, so that you are holding both free ends out either hand, with a perfect "pretzl" shaped loop between your hands.
3. Take the bottom of the "pretzl" and pull it up through one ear of the "pretzl". Only one ear will work, the other will become no knot at all.
4. Pull the loop out, snug it up, and use with confidance.


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## Ghillie (Oct 17, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> When I was in Boy Scouts, an advanced course I was in at camp taught us the "pioneer knot", which was supposedly used by the pioneers to create a midline knot to use as a pulley to haul loads.
> 
> I use this for all mid-line knots to pull a load. It holds well in all directions, but like the bowline, can fail if not set correctly. It ties in about 10 seconds without even hurrying, so it is very easy to make.
> 
> ...




Is this it?


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## pdqdl (Oct 17, 2008)

No, but that looks like a dandy knot also. Looks like it might become tough to untie.

Working on some pics. Will post shortly.


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## pdqdl (Oct 17, 2008)

*Pioneer knot: does anyone know this by another name?*

As described prevously, here is my "mid-line" knot for attaching loads in the middle of a rope.

While it does not slide down and fail, if both free ends of the knot are pulled without any load on the loop, it does unroll itself a bit. If the knot was cycled several times between loaded "ends only 180 degrees apart" and "loaded loop with both ends held together", it would eventually walk down to "no loop left".

But it is great for ease of untieing and not failing with a load on the loop.




 Form a loop with the working end on top.
 Continue with the working end passing under the loop just formed.
 Hold the working end in place and grasp the right side of the loop and bring it under the working end and over the other (left) side of the loop. As you pull it out of the original loop it will then form the new loop of the knot.
Work the knot tight and then pull firmly on the loop to set the knot in place.
 Note that if a larger loop is desired, start the knot with a larger original loop.
EDIT 2022: this knot is best known as the "manharness" knot, as it was used by military toops to rig many men to a single rope to haul heavy equipment through difficult terrain. Also, known as the Artilleryman's loop knot, as seen in the pics above. This post was so old, ArbSite lost my original pictures.


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## blewgrass (Oct 17, 2008)

i know many knots, but i ain't never seen the pioneer knot. will have to tie it and see how i like it.


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## Garfield (Oct 17, 2008)

*That's great*

I have a couple books I looked through and have not found it. Thanks though it looks like a great knot.


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## Ghillie (Oct 17, 2008)

*Found it!*

Manharness loop, harness loop or artillery loop.

#8 here.

Good thing I read treespyder's sig, it would have drove me nuts!


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## md_tree_dood (Oct 18, 2008)

Speaking of knots. My crew recently pulled over a 40+ inch american beech with 4 pulleys hooked up to give us extra power and I talked a guy into using a zeplin bend instead of a triple sheet bend to tie two rigging lines together (obviously the bend didn't have to run through the pulleys). When we finished he walked up to the zeplin bend and the two ropes came apart as easy as could be, he was shocked. It's not very well known, but it's a handy knot to know, as long as you're using two ropes the same diameter.


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## pdqdl (Oct 18, 2008)

Ghillie, you got it! 

Apparently, I need to read my Ashley's book of knots a little closer; the site you referenced says it is ABOK #1050.

I haven't any experience with the alpine butterfly, I have been using the Pioneer/manharness knot since before I owned a chainsaw. I'll have to experiment.


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## Adkpk (Oct 18, 2008)

Great thread.


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## pdqdl (Oct 18, 2008)

*I've been doing some research...*

This is a summary of what I have found while comparing the manharness and alpine butterfly knots:

The Alpine is much more secure (and stronger), but binds up and is difficult to untie if loaded heavily (or at an angle) on the loop. Best suited for loading perpendicular to the line.

The manharness is poorly suited for heavy line pull on both standing ends of the line with no load on the loop, but has almost no tendency to bind up when heavily loaded on the loop against either (or both) standing ends of the line. Best suited for pulling the loop with heavy loads parallel to the line, if ease of untying is anticipated. Faster to tie, but requires dressing properly to hold well.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 18, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> The manharness is poorly suited for heavy line pull on both standing ends of the line with no load on the loop, but has almost no tendency to bind up when heavily loaded on the loop against either (or both) standing ends of the line. Best suited for pulling the loop with heavy loads parallel to the line, if ease of untying is anticipated. Faster to tie, but requires dressing properly to hold well.



The reason for the hitch was for teams of men to pull caissons through overland, where mule trains would be impractical (remember the song about taking a trip with Andrew Jackson? They had to pull the guns through the backwaters of the Ol'Miss.) Slip it over one shoulder, and under the other armpit...






That wide turn on the backside makes for a great worrypoint.

As with any knot, it is built on a simpler one, this starts like a marlin spike and adds a twist


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## Ghillie (Oct 18, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> Ghillie, you got it!
> 
> Apparently, I need to read my Ashley's book of knots a little closer; the site you referenced says it is ABOK #1050.
> 
> I haven't any experience with the alpine butterfly, I have been using the Pioneer/manharness knot since before I owned a chainsaw. I'll have to experiment.



Yea, had a little OCD episode last night. I just hate not knowing something!


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## farmboy53 (Mar 30, 2011)

*heavy load quick release*

I have used a variance of the sheepshank with great success when pulling trees (cedar) heavy loads 1m pounds with rope. Very easy to reach into the tangle of limbs and untie. Also attach two ropes together. You have to get all the slack out before you set it down and start your load. A two loop prusik - cow hitch at the tree end and the sheepshank at the hitch end works even better. The cow hitch at the trailer hitch end gets tight due to the smaller diameter of the trailer hitch.
I have also played with using a sheet bend reversed, the working end on the top so that it is not under the knot but on top. When the pressure is released you just roll it out. Works well for fast connecting and release of two doubled ropes that you might want to use for extra strength. Take the bight end of one doubled rope and roll it into a cow hitch double or triple it. Then thread the other rope (single or doubled) through the loop making sure the working end is threaded, looped and threaded again into the loop of the second rope. The standing end must be on the top of the working end so the when the pressure is released you can unthread the working end. If the pressure was great enough the nylon rope may melt some but it will come undone by hand.
I have tried to find these variances of knots with no success. They may be dangerous if not used properly because they may release.


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## capecodtree (Mar 30, 2011)

*knots*

as already stated, the only good not is one that holds and is easy to untie. I was shown a not years ago that maybe some of you know the name of. When pulling with a truck you put the rope through an open pintle hitch, loop back about four feet of rope, wrap the loop tightly around the rope leading back to the tree, leave enough room to put the resulting end of the loop over the pintle hitch, then close it. You can now pull to the cows come home, flip the pintle up and un-wrap. great knot, wrap?


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## pdqdl (Mar 30, 2011)

Ghillie said:


> ...
> 
> Video of the swedish bowline. It's at the end.


 
Damn good work Gillie! How did you ever find that link?

By the way: my favorite midline knot is the man-harness knot. Lots of links on this website to it. Best thread, with testing analysis from Moray: http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/115527.htm


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