# Amsteel Blue



## buffalo bill (Jun 16, 2009)

Can you use amsteel blue like a tree-rig sling with a spliced eye in one end, attaching it to a tree with a timber hitch or cow hitch? 

I know your not supposed to tie knots in the stuff, but a timber hitch does not bend the rope like a bowline would.

What are your thoughts?


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## Grace Tree (Jun 16, 2009)

It could but it's too slippery, in my opinion and would need constant attention. Better to splice up a woopie or loopie.
Phil


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 16, 2009)

buffalo bill said:


> I know your not supposed to tie knots in the stuff, but a timber hitch does not bend the rope like a bowline would.



The slipperiness is the problem here; how do they say it, low co-efficient of friction?

I've got a buddy who does a lot of splicing and he says that his loopies need a longer bury with Amsteel.

Even if I used a clock hitch, or a pseudo-cow-hitch that wrapped back and forth several times, I would want to check it for creep regularly.

Maybe a stillson with several half hitches for backup?


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## BlackenedTimber (Jun 16, 2009)

pretty much unrelated, but I just got a HUGE amsteel blue sling yesterday for dragging my trucks up and down the mountains of vest virginia. Its a 25' eye to eye with kevlar friction pads on both eyes, and 2 inches thick. Rated at 225,000 lbs working load. And it only cost me $1225.00... I'll see if I can get some pics... it's the most massive and impressive thing I have laid eyes on in a while. Under 40 lbs too.

Definately does not look good at holding knots though. There, I guess this post is semi-related now...

:greenchainsaw:


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## FJ40-logger (Jun 16, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> pretty much unrelated, but I just got a HUGE amsteel blue sling yesterday for dragging my trucks up and down the mountains of vest virginia. Its a 25' eye to eye with kevlar friction pads on both eyes, and 2 inches thick. Rated at 225,000 lbs working load. And it only cost me $1225.00... I'll see if I can get some pics... it's the most massive and impressive thing I have laid eyes on in a while. Under 40 lbs too.
> 
> Definately does not look good at holding knots though. There, I guess this post is semi-related now...
> 
> :greenchainsaw:



WOW! :jawdrop: I would love to see a picture of that! I love rigging and towing products ha ha


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## buffalo bill (Jun 16, 2009)

*sherrill sells amsteel slings*

Just noticed that sherrill sell amsteel blue one eye slings. I will ask them the best way to attach it to a tree.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 16, 2009)

I talked to my buddy and he says that he would use a cow, half-hitch and a tuck.


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## sharkfin12us (Jun 17, 2009)

*amsteel*



Small Wood said:


> It could but it's too slippery, in my opinion and would need constant attention. Better to splice up a woopie or loopie.
> Phil



I have 2 whoopie slings one for the porta wrap and one for heavy duty block and they work very well.When i first purchased the whoopie sling its rated at 30,000 lb tensile strength but when i opened the box and it is half inch in diameter i called to make sure that i recieve the correct item.Any way whoopie is better then bowline or timber hitch hope that helps.


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## BlackenedTimber (Jun 18, 2009)

This is a pic of the amsteel blue sling I had made for pulling my 90,000 lb trucks up and down the ROW here in WV. Dude says it is rated at 225,000 lbs. This sling was laid out on the flatbed of one of our F450 work trucks, and as you can see, it takes up pretty much the whole thing. You can also see one of my guys standing at the end of the flatbed, with his hand on the sling, gives a little bit of perspective. I love this sling!


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## pdqdl (Jun 18, 2009)

buffalo bill said:


> Just noticed that sherrill sell amsteel blue one eye slings. I will ask them the best way to attach it to a tree.



I wouldn't recommend using amsteel as a sling for shock loading, no matter what the rating of the rope/sling. The melting temperature of that rope is rather low; in fact the rope itself is downright fragile. Pulling a steady firm load, as with a winch line, allows the force to be spread out along the length.

Shock load the rope by towing between two trucks or by dropping logs onto it will focus all the stopping forces on the point of contact. Sure, the rope is strong enough, but when all that energy is dissipated on one spot, you will get meltdown pretty quickly. That is a major reason why splices are preferred over knots with this rope.

It doesn't help that the rope is *way* too expensive to justify using in a common application. It excels at being light and incredibly strong, which is why it is preferred for tow line with very large boats.

It may be as strong as wire rope of the same diameter, but you darn sure better not use it as hard.


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## BlackenedTimber (Jun 19, 2009)

I have been using this sling for maybe a week now, with now problems. It is a 2" diameter, with a sick work load. As for shock loading, the way we cure that is to pull the air brakes on the truck, attach the sling to the hitch pins on the truck and the dozer, and take up slack with the D8. While tension is on the line, the truck will let of his air brakes, shift into neutral, and allow the dozer to walk him up or down the mountain. 

The rope itself is not as abrasion resistant as steel rope (find me a rope that is...) but when care is taken (all of my guys know how much this thing cost, and know not to :censored: it up, or I will tear them apart...) it has performed wonderfully. Also, 2" steel cable is not something that anyone wants to be humpin up and down the mountainside.

We use 1.25 inch EHS steel lines on our dozer winch drums, and I have had them break from shock loading. Snapped one on a D6 hightrack without even trying. Atleast if this thing breaks, it's less of a hazard with a site full of men standing around. That steel is nasty stuff when it breaks.

Amsteel is "Much Stronger" (samson website) than steel line, and I can easily splice it in the field if something happens to my slings. Also, a 25 foot eye to eye with kevlar/nylon abrasion pads weighs less than 40 pounds. Can't beat it.

I do agree that the cost is outrageous for common usage, but for the specialized work that I do, I love the stuff. I also love it when I can mesh my tree knowledge with my current operations. Makes me smile. 

Just ordered two more slings.

For me, Amsteel gets two thumbs up.


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## WesSpur - Nathan (Jun 19, 2009)

buffalo bill said:


> Can you use amsteel blue like a tree-rig sling with a spliced eye in one end, attaching it to a tree with a timber hitch or cow hitch?
> 
> I know your not supposed to tie knots in the stuff, but a timber hitch does not bend the rope like a bowline would.
> 
> What are your thoughts?



I can confirm that Amsteel Blue is very slippery, and the manufacturer discourages the use of knots with it. We do have some Whoopie slings at WesSpur made from Amsteel which eliminate the need for tying a knot. Not sure if those would work for you, but here's a link if you want to check them out: http://www.wesspur.com/Slings/adjustable-slings.html

Cheers,


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## pdqdl (Jun 19, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> {parts deleted for brevity}
> 
> Amsteel is "Much Stronger" (samson website) than steel line, ...



Well...yes. But not really.

The rope salesmen like to quote that on a "pound for pound" basis, which is certainly true. But if you set a 3/8" wire rope for a winch line against a 3/8" amsteel, the comparison isn't quite the same.

3/8" rotation resistant compacted strand wire rope: 8.3 tons _minimum breaking strenth _@ .31lbs/ft.
3/8" galvanized 7x19 wire rope: 7.2 tons _minimum breaking strenth _@ .243lbs/ft.

3/8" Amsteel 12 strand from Samson: 7 tons _minimum breaking strenth _, but usually advertised at 15,500 "average breaking strength"

3/8" Amsteel™ Blue Winch Line: 8.8 tons _minimum breaking strenth _, but usually advertised at 9.8 tons "average breaking strength" (@ stupidly light weight) 

So Amsteel is roughly interchangeable with wire rope on a winch line. Granted, it is runaway lighter than wire rope, and can be spliced in minutes. But it cuts easily against a sharp surface, cannot take very much abrasion at all, and it melts at a very low temperature.

If I was towing trucks up a hill with a bulldozer, I'd probably want an insanely expensive but unbelievably light rope to do it with too. Until one of my derelict employees wrapped it around something sharp or hot and destroyed it.


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## buffalo bill (Jun 20, 2009)

*Eye Slings*

If the stuff is no good for shock loading or tying it in a hitch then why are Sherrill selling them as single eye slings for attaching to a block when logging down a trunk?

They must be good for it. There is no point buying it in half inch or less though because you can get 5/8 or 3/4 tenex that is almost as strong and cheaper.

The benefit I thought was Amsteel in 5/8 attached to a block for big stuff. Because for blocking a trunk with a 3/4 double braid rope and a 3/4 pulley, you would need a sling of at least 7/8 to an inch for the system to all be compatible (the sling and block need to be double the rope as they are taking twice the load). And a pulley (block) required to accomodate a 1 inch eye sling is a pain in the ass and expensive.

Whereas you can get 5/8 amsteel (59,000 lbs) which is stronger than one inch tenex (45,000lbs) and it will fit all blocks 5/8 and 3/4.


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## pdqdl (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't think I said it was no good for use; I have 150' hank of 3/8" that I keep in my trunk for long distance recovery. Only used it once, but it was extremely handy when I needed it.

I think it costs too much, considering it's useful lifetime. Used gentle and slow under heavy pressure, it will last. If you hammer it with heavy shock loading you will melt down the points of contact. If you are very careful to avoid that issue, you will probably get good use out of it.

I tried using it on my capstan rope winch, but it was WAY too slick for good holding power on the capstan and was prone to fraying if you stalled the winch and held it.

Just for a test, I tried climbing an oak tree in my front yard: the heat of friction by my 240 lbs on DRT was enough to fray the line a little bit. It didn't hurt the rope much, but I could spot small fraying and heat damage. For a line capable of holding vastly more than my weight, I consider that pretty fragile.

On the other hand, I used it to pull out a 12,000 lb truck stuck in the mud about 120' away from the pavement. Nice smooth pull from an area of good traction, it worked perfectly and suffered no damage that I could detect. (It was particularly valuable in this application, since I had gotten a KCMO spray truck stuck in the front lawn at the Parks & Recreation district headquarters. _Right beside a 4 lane busy street._ All the executives had come out the front door and were watching the mess I made. I REALLY NEEDED to get that truck pulled out without any complications!)

I'll give it credit, this rope is so fabulously strong it is fun to use. LIGHT! Grab 150' of towline with one hand! WOW!

BTW: 7/8" tenex sling is what I use. What's wrong with that? It is really tough, and I have never challenged it's strength yet.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 20, 2009)

buffalo bill said:


> Whereas you can get 5/8 amsteel (59,000 lbs) which is stronger than one inch tenex (45,000lbs) and it will fit all blocks 5/8 and 3/4.



That is indeed the benefit for going with the high-tech-fiber cordage. You increase SWL and decrease bulk and weight for the climber installing the rigging.

The amount of stretch, regardless of the Modulus of Elasticity, on an eye-sling is negligible due to it's length. 



> One way to determine the modulus of a rope is to measurethe deflection for a given weight on 100 ft. of rope. http://lamountaineers.org/xRopes.pd



Some interesting stuff in this tech paper on rock ropes.


As an aside: when properly tied, the V of the eye should be trapped by the bight of the hitch so that loading is on both legs; thus limiting the loading on the actual splice.


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## buffalo bill (Jun 25, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> That is indeed the benefit for going with the high-tech-fiber cordage. You increase SWL and decrease bulk and weight for the climber installing the rigging.
> 
> The amount of stretch, regardless of the Modulus of Elasticity, on an eye-sling is negligible due to it's length.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, some practical advice there for sure.


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