# Pentra Bark with Acephate on mites



## Upidstay (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm normally a turf and shrub guy, but I have some decent size Eastern Hemlocks in my yard getting eaten by everything under the sun. I treated with Merit and oil, which took care of the Wooly Adelgidand the Needle Scale. The mites weren't affected all that much. 

I would like to try and use Acephate/Orthene. I checked out the Quest chemical website, got the label for Pentra Bark. One of THEIR original studies was with Orthene. Obviously, their study showed it worked incredibly well.

Have any of you pro's out there ever used it with insecticides? Thought I'd ask you guys before I wasted $50 on a quart. The trees are just too tall for me to do with my backpack sprayer, and I don;t have access to a tank sprayer that hasn;t been used for years to apply herbicide.


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## KevinM (Oct 13, 2008)

Down here in the south we have massive mite outbreaks on leyland cypress and azaleas all year long. I have used Avid and Oil which works awesome but you have to be on top of the mites. If you spray them once a month you should be fine but using Pentra Bark wont work but Avid and Oil will work !!


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## Ed Roland (Oct 13, 2008)

"Spider mites thrive in warm or hot, dry weather. They survive over the winter on a number of plants, including many evergreens. Carbamates such as DDT and Sevin cause an explosion in fertility of spider mites. Use any Carbamate and you will have spider mites all over. Some of the pyrethrium based insecticides also increase the activity of mites -- even Talstar, which was originally considered to be a miticide!"

"Growers appreciate Avid, because it is partially systemic. On young foliage, Avid penetrates and is effective through the leaf. This chemical, which is synthesized from a natural bacterium in the soil, cannot penetrate mature foliage or move from one leaf to another. Unfortunately, because of over use, many mites are developing resistance to Abamectin (Avid). Avid has been most effective against broad mites or cyclamen mites. This experience makes sense, because these types of mites tend to attack the youngest foliage, and Avid penetrates the young foliage (and thus kills on the back of the leaves) while it does not penetrate mature foliage (which the 2-spotted spider mites attack)." So no real need for Pentra-bark.
http://www.dahlia.org/BulletinArticles/Spider Mites.html

Avid is a nasty substance. Toxicity catagory 2 with a "warning" signal word. Highly toxic to aquatic organisms and less than good for you or your family. 

Just a suggestion: Instead of chemicals increase the health of your trees with optimum cultural practices and the pests will move to your neighbors property.


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## KevinM (Oct 13, 2008)

In my opinion and totally disagree with woodyweasel use the Avid if you want to have Hemlocks in the future and no the mites wont go away on there own. Yes you can change the cultural conditions but you also should fertilize these trees with a slow release fertilizer and spray them for the optimum growing conditions in your yard.


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## Ed Roland (Oct 13, 2008)

KevinM said:


> totally disagree with woodyweasel.



ouch.  

Not sure what there is to disagree about. I posted information derived from learn-ed people. Please provide your disputing data, KevinM.

And is "Toxicity catagory 2 with a "warning" signal word. Highly toxic to aquatic organisms and less than good for you or your family." incorrect??

opcorn:


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## Urban Forester (Oct 14, 2008)

Just a couple of thoughts.. Pentrabark burns lawns if grass is growing up to the trunks then runoff could be an issue. I believe that the first step in determining pesticide use would be to first identify the mite you're dealing with. Hemlocks can be attacked by Spruce Mite (cool weather) and Two-spotted (warm weather). In either case a properly timed application of hort oil should control either one. Advances in the refining process has greatly reduced phytoxicity of warm weather applications of oil. I wouldn't spray it above 80 degrees and in high humidity, but other than that it should work fine. Determining WHEN to spray is the key. In Michigan, Spruce Mite starts activity as early as late March, then goes dormant in mid July. Two-spotted does not begin migration from the ground until mid to late May. Mites have an incredible ability to become resistant to miticides regardless of the formulation. Due to the fact that up to 10 generations can occur in a season. Each new generation CAN have altered genetic coding which makes them less suseptible to the modes of action in miticides. We rotate 3 during one growing season, bifenazate, abamectin and spiromefesin. Unless the population is completely out of hand and the level of damage is so extensive that reduced photosynthesiss is occuring as a result of needle damage/drop, I would stick to oil, no possibilty of resistance, as it suffocates the little devils. Now if a generation is born that doesn't have to breathe... then your screwed!!! 
A program to increase health and vigor can then be put in place to aid in recovery and reduce the the liklihood of re-infestation. Weak and/or stressed plant material is ALWAYS more "inviting" to pests.


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## Upidstay (Oct 14, 2008)

I appreciate all of the cautioning about spraying. I am licensed, have been applying turf and shrub chemicals for a living for well over a decade now, so I do know what I'm doing. I have tried oil, and in my original post I said that I just don't have the proper equipment to spray trees this size. All of the larger spray rigs I have access to have all had herbicides sprayed out of them. Don't want to use a dedicated herbicide sprayer to spray my trees. 

There is only wood chips and some scraggly vinca under these trees.

My first choices whenever spraying any tree or shrub is always hort oil or M-Pede soap. Had great luck with both of them over the years. Just don't have the equipment to get the job done right, or the money to buy any. Thought about a fogger backpack, but there is a constant breeze right at my neighbor's house.

I've treated with merit, which took care of the other 2 bugs which were eating the trees. Took away the mites' competition. I've researched this, contacted my local agricultural extension service, and the only solution that doesn't involve paying somebody a few hundred bucks (whch i don't have) is to try the Pentra Bark with Acephate combo. Which brings me back to my original question:

Has anybody ever used Pentra bark mixed with Orthene/Acephate?


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## Urban Forester (Oct 14, 2008)

Sorry, I missed the equipment "issue". Yes I have used that combo on locusts to control plant bug. It works well, but timing it to allow for translocation can be tricky. I believe the window is about one week for translocation. I wonder if it would take longer to move through an evergreen? Also I am not familar w/the miticidal properties of orthene. With regards to it as a foliar spray the residual is about a week to 10 days, I believe.


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## KevinM (Oct 14, 2008)

Yes I have used Pentra Bark but never with Orthene and for the poster from earlier saying that Avid is really toxic well Orthene will kill everything in a milisecond !!!!!!


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## Ed Roland (Oct 15, 2008)

KevinM said:


> Girdling roots will kill a tree everytime and I doubt it was the fertilizer that burnt the tree.





KevinM said:


> Yes your right about girdling roots in old trees as we have Live Oaks here on the coast that are 200 yrs old and they have girdling roots.



So which is it? Does a girdling root kill a tree everytime?



woodweasel said:


> Avid is a nasty substance. Toxicity catagory 2 with a "warning" signal word. Highly toxic to aquatic organisms and less than good for you or your family.
> 
> Just a suggestion: Instead of chemicals increase the health of your trees with optimum cultural practices and the pests will move to your neighbors property.





KevinM said:


> In my opinion and totally disagree with woodyweasel





KevinM said:


> for the poster from earlier saying that Avid is really toxic well Orthene will kill everything in a milisecond !!!!!!



> So will lava, km. Since Avid is so safe, feel free to mix it with your koolaid!


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## KevinM (Oct 15, 2008)

Woodman 

I have a few questions: 

What is your education background in ? 

How much experience do you have in the PHC side of the business ? 

How long have you have been in this business ? 

Since you love to question whatever I say when it comes to PHC I thought I would fire off these questions and see what your answers are. I have always been taught that you make the most money when you fertilize or spray trees, shrubs or lawns and I cant figure out why you are so anti PHC.


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## ATH (Oct 15, 2008)

To the original poster:
Sorry, I can't say I have addressed mites on hemlock so I don't have a direct answer to your question. However, looking at the Orthene label, I do not see mites listed. The special label for spider mites and aphids is for soil injection. Is it on another lable that I am not finding? It may work, but you would be going off label to use it as such.

It looks like Mauget offers some products that will work in Inject-A-Cide, Inject-A-Cide B, and Abacide 2. These are all trunk injections. I would personally rather bark spray or soil treat to get the systemics into the tree, but I am not sure what is available? Of note: The Abacide holds a "Warning" label while the other 2 hold a "Danger" label. However, if used correctly, you will never be exposed to the chemical as it is a closed system with the injection system.

Inject-A-Cide Label
Inject-A-Cide B Label
Abacide 2 Label

Another choice would be AceCAPS. I could not find the label online, but it is labeled for mite control.

__________

As to the "Chemical safety" conversation, there is a very very simple reality: The "Caution"/"Warning" or "Danger" labels are specifically used according to their toxicity to *humans*. Yes, Orthene kills many insects very quickly. HOWEVER because it is less toxic to humans than Avid, it has a "Caution" label while Avid has a "Warning" label.

All that I hear woodweasel saying is that Avid is more dangerous to humans than Orthene is. Some people think that is significant when you decide which pesticide to use. Others do not. I, for one, appreciate folks making sure I know that. That does not mean I will always let it dictate my choice...but my choice does not change the reality of human toxicity.

Orthene Label

Avid Label

I'm not trying to participate in an argument it just is what it is - take that for what it is worth.

And to show that I am not taking sides: KevinM is spot on that improving plant health does not get rid of all ills. That is where the appropriate use of chemicals becomes important if you have a plant you want to keep. (;


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## Ed Roland (Oct 15, 2008)

KevinM said:


> I have always been taught that you make the most money when you fertilize or spray trees, shrubs or lawns and I cant figure out why you are so anti PHC.



oke:


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## woodville (Oct 16, 2008)

play nice weasel


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## SteveHaigh (Nov 20, 2008)

Has anyone else used used Acephate with Pentra Bark to control other pests? Such as scale on a large Maple or leaf hopper on a large Locust which would be to hard to spray? I am thinking of using the combo (Ace. & PB) on a large site which would be to hard to micro inject all the trees and spraying is really not an option.


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## tomtrees58 (Nov 20, 2008)

woodweasel said:


> oke:



he he tom trees


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## Ed Roland (Nov 20, 2008)

SteveHaigh said:


> Has anyone else used used Acephate with Pentra Bark to control other pests? Such as scale on a large Maple or leaf hopper on a large Locust which would be to hard to spray? I am thinking of using the combo (Ace. & PB) on a large site which would be to hard to micro inject all the trees and spraying is really not an option.



Welcome.

Look into _Safari_ active ingredient Dinotefuran. Lots of data discount the stuff. Lots of data supports the stuff. I can say that i personally used it as a drench to control Hermes scale on mature phellos in an area that was not condusive to spraying. We were pleased with the results in that case. 
This product can translocate through the bark so consider a low pressure bark spray.

Do your research as this product can find its way into the surrounding environment. Make sure pesticides are even warranted! Threshold and whatnot.


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## ots (Dec 4, 2008)

*Mites on Hemlocks*

I have been treating mites on Hemlocks for over 10 years now. Our company specializes in PHC.
Of all the chemicals mentioned in this thread, Mauget Abacide will do the trick with no danger to you or the environment.
I have been using Mauget products for many years to control a host of insect and pest problems in large trees and they are very effective.


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## treevet (Dec 31, 2008)

I used Pentrabark with Safari 2 seasons ago for the control of EAB. It was at the time the treatment of choice. It killed the grass as mentioned as there will be run off and the directions are "spray to runoff" (trunk). Last year we used injections of Immidacloprid as it tested better than my previous treatment by researchers at Ohio State U. and became the current treatment of choice.

The Pentrabark also stained the trunks that I treated and was unsightly IMO. With the treatments at OSU, there was question whether or not it functioned at all as the tests were very similar with or without the adjuvant-surfactant. Lenticels are not easy to hit/penetrate.


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