# How I baby my 2 stoke motors.... 30-1 instead of 50-1



## preventec47 (Feb 16, 2022)

For what its worth, I dont ever use any of the elite synthetic 2 stroke oils for chain saws, but I frequently use 2 stroke oils for outboard motors and conventional 2 stroke oils for air cooled motors meeting the min specs. What I do to baby my engines somewhat is I run all my mixes at 30 to 1 instead of 50 to 1 to assure a little extra lubrication to my
bearings and cylinder walls etc. while running and also to leave heavier coating when saws are idle. I would expect there to be excessive carbon buildup perhaps but so far I have not seen it. The saws seem to run just as well and
I dont really pay much more for oil as I usually buy it by the gallon.


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## SS396driver (Feb 16, 2022)

From what I understand too much oil isnt good either . More oil less gas =engine runs lean , will it damage the saw I'm not sure . I run a little fat on oil but my saws have been tuned to run on the rich end of the spectrum.


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## ClimberBusinessman (Feb 16, 2022)

You run the risk of clogging the carb or having carbon deposits. Also, if you're running equipment meant for 50:1 on 30:1 without tuning the carb, I'd expect it to run a bit rough and lower on power. You might also want to think about some of the potentially negative health effects from breathing all that extra oil in the exhaust. I don't think you're going to extend the life of your equipment that much, and you might even worsen performance in the meantime. If you must run 30:1, at least tune the carb and run a fuel additive like B12 fuel additive from time to time to clear out the carbon buildup.


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## preventec47 (Feb 16, 2022)

The risk of running lean because of mix change is not realistically possible. The mix change due to air temp changes and altitude are more significant. The carb isnt clogging because of viscosity increase.... however I do acknowlege possible carbon buildup but I have not seen it yet. The saw's power change is not perceptable but I do admit to more exhaust pollution. Somewhat like autos with thinner oil to produce better mileage but more wear, I suspect the 50-1 is required more my govt pollution mandates than equip longevity considerations.


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## Mad Professor (Feb 16, 2022)

I've run quality 2-stroke oil for air cooled since the early 1970s at 50:1.

No oil related problems ever.


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## cscltd (Feb 16, 2022)

(jump to 13min for numbers)

this video says different, under full load cylinder was 29c or 84f hotter when using 25:1 compared to 50:1 and only after 3 cuts too!
and you may not see carbon build up as much if your are using outboard oil (water cooled) which has a lower flash point than air cooled oil hence will burn off at lower temp (even before the oil does it job of lubricating the hot side corner of piston)
most oils that say are for both outboards and chainsaw are water cooled oil in disguise


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## Captain Bruce (Feb 16, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> For what its worth, I dont ever use any of the elite synthetic 2 stroke oils for chain saws, but I frequently use 2 stroke oils for outboard motors and conventional 2 stroke oils for air cooled motors meeting the min specs. What I do to baby my engines somewhat is I run all my mixes at 30 to 1 instead of 50 to 1 to assure a little extra lubrication to my
> bearings and cylinder walls etc. while running and also to leave heavier coating when saws are idle. I would expect there to be excessive carbon buildup perhaps but so far I have not seen it. The saws seem to run just as well and
> I dont really pay much more for oil as I usually buy it by the gallon.


They will either smoke, or scream!


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## Cricket (Feb 17, 2022)

SS396driver said:


> From what I understand too much oil isnt good either . More oil less gas =engine runs lean , will it damage the saw I'm not sure . I run a little fat on oil but my saws have been tuned to run on the rich end of the spectrum.



I had an ancient - I want to say Homelite? - been years - that was so sloppy that it required a mix about double what it actually called for. Smoked like a chimney, but ran and cut like a champ. Not sure what happened to that thing - lost it in a move, I suspect.


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## ihookem (Feb 19, 2022)

You can run rich if you want and likely wont hurt any. However, I am the kind of guy who questions everything with a measure of doubt and seem to be curious what really is the truth about oil. I have run car with 10K changes for 300, 000 mi. on my Duramax deisel. I even ran the Amsoil, with oil tests for 46 and 39 K without an oil change , with filter changes every 15K. The oil tests were good at 46K and 39K but did show signs of weakness so I changes them . This was 200,000 mi. ago and the engine runs darn good. As for 2 stroke oil, I have run 128/1 Amsoil in my 1997 25 horse Merc for many years. It runs perfect to this day . Now I go with Merc @ 50 /1 and sometimes just 2 oz. per gal. ,, = 64/1 and have been doing this for 23 yrs. Never a problem. As for my chainsaws, I have run 128/1 Amsoil for years ( 1 oz per gallon ) but sometimes just 100/1 . Never a problem in 35 yrs. However, I dont run my saws for months at a time, but got my first saw ( Stihl 011) in 1989 and ran it for years. When I was an Amsoil nut/ follower I read all there was. Amsoil would test 2 strokes at 300/1 mix and there was no problem . I still run 100/1 Amsoil in all my saws. However, Amsoil does not have much if any for solubles in their oil so it does not mix easy in the gas. It sinks to the bottom so mixing very well is a must. Since they dont have soluble additives in their 2 stroke mix, it is rational that you dont need and much oil for the mix.


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## RK-NL (Apr 6, 2022)

Adding extra oil to the mix has a few drawbacks. Oil burns hotter than fuel. If you're not spooging out of the exhaust at 30:1 it means you're running significantly hotter than on 50:1. 

When you go from 50:1 to 30:1 you go from 2% oil and 98% fuel to 3.3% oil and 96.7% fuel. When you go from sea-level to about 650ft you lean out your mixture by about 1%. So you're right saying that it's not likely to cause a lean seize, if you adjust the carb properly. You might get some difficulty starting, because the pilot jet is a tad on the small side, but it shouldn't be anything major. You might foul a plug if it doesn't start right up, but that's nothing you can't fix with a lighter and a plug wrench. 

I don't think running more oil has any added benefits on the wear of the saw. It's designed for 50:1. Modern oils are very slick and do a great job creating film. By running 1.3% more oil through the saw, you will increase the cost of running it. I don't think any possible savings in service life would offset the cost of the extra oil over the life of the saw.


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## Tomos770 (Apr 6, 2022)

cscltd said:


> and you may not see carbon build up as much if your are using outboard oil (water cooled) which has a lower flash point than air cooled oil hence will burn off at lower temp (even before the oil does it job of lubricating the hot side corner of piston)
> most oils that say are for both outboards and chainsaw are water cooled oil in disguise


Modern JASO FC/FD 2stroke oils (aircooled ***) have also lover flash points.....like Shell advance ultra 2t....or any modern 2stroke oils labeled for mofas/Scooters etc...

And yes.....I would never use TC3-W labeled oil un any aircooled ***

EDIT : why is O*P*E labeled as a swear word?


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## Tomos770 (Apr 6, 2022)

RK-NL said:


> I don't think running more oil has any added benefits on the wear of the saw. It's designed for 50:1. Modern oils are very slick and do a great job creating film. By running 1.3% more oil through the saw, you will increase the cost of running it. I don't think any possible savings in service life would offset the cost of the extra oil over the life of the saw.


Ok for the 2strokes of the past decade....maybe (with modern synthetic oils!)

But nowadays we have strato saws.....DiTech Scooters...E-Tech outboards....where botom end (bearings) get less oil....because of the new design.....how mix flows trough the engine...


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 6, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I frequently use 2 stroke oils for outboard motors and conventional 2 stroke oils for air cooled motors


I always heard that TC*W*-3 is no-go in air-cooled engines because they get way hotter than water-cooled outboards, and presumably get carboned up when using TC*W*-3.

Can't carbon deposits cause problems with piston rings (like scuffing/scoring/seizing)?


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## Old-Feller (Apr 6, 2022)

Using too much oil will eventually cause rings to stick, Resulting in lost compression. It would definitely help the bearings though.


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## funky sawman (Apr 6, 2022)

I have burnt thousands of gallons of sawgas in my time on Earth raping trees. I've switched back and forth from 40 to 1 and 50 to 1, only difference is the richer oil mix hurts your wallet more. Keeping a saw in tune is much more valuable


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Apr 6, 2022)

Run whatever oil ratio you want...why do we need a thread on it though?


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## rmotoman (Apr 6, 2022)

EchoRomeoCharlie said:


> Run whatever oil ratio you want...why do we need a thread on it though?


Because we love oil threads.


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## camel2019 (Apr 6, 2022)

As long as it’s tuned for it I saw run it. My Stihl kombi tool spoofed out of the exhaust with 50 to 1 both with my mix(Stihl mix bottles) and trufuel caned stuff I really need to get the screw drivers to tune it.


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## preventec47 (Apr 6, 2022)

I hate to admit but about fifty years ago in my teens, once when I ran out of 
2 stroke motor oil I mixed 4 stroke oil instead because that is all I had 
and ran a saw for a few days with a Stihl chainsaw. I couldnt tell the difference
though I probably shortened the lifespan a thousand hours ? ? ?


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 6, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I hate to admit but about fifty years ago in my teens, once when I ran out of
> 2 stroke motor oil I mixed 4 stroke oil instead because that is all I had
> and ran a saw for a few days with a Stihl chainsaw. I couldnt tell the difference
> though I probably shortened the lifespan a thousand hours ? ? ?


I remember a lady I worked for in the mid '70s had a Poulan chainsaw ...we just mixed 30W motor oil with the gas. I don't think I even knew back then that there was such a thing as 2-stroke oil. And I don't think the saw even called for it. Whatever the case, the saw worked fine.

Her neighbor had a 2T LawnBoy lawnmower that I mowed her lawn with, too -- and same deal with that, IIRC.


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## huskihl (Apr 6, 2022)

So many blanket statements in this thread. The old-timers still believe that more oil in the mix causes carbon, regardless of what oil it is. Many oils today actually burn cleaner at heavier ratios because of the detergent. But there are also many that leave excess carbon at heavier ratios.

As far as heat, it takes heat to make power. Until you reach the temperature at which the motor can’t survive, more heat is better. Just because that saw was 84° hotter using more oil doesn’t mean anything. Anywhere near the muffler and the temp can change from 300° to 800° by moving the thermometer 1/2”. That saw was probably tuned lean out of the box and then it was way too lean with the added oil. One thing is for certain, the operator had no idea either way.

If you only cut firewood for your home you can run about any ratio you want south of 100:1 and you’ll never wear a saw out. One thing you will never see on here though is a guy who preaches his 100:1 ratios and comes back asking why the bearings took a shît in his saw


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## Old-Feller (Apr 6, 2022)

The saws from the 60's used 1 pint of 30 wt oil to one gallon of gas, My vintage D-49 Sears saw has that information printed under the air filter cover. Old pioneer direct drive saws were the same, And many others I am sure, Just no personal experience with them. I am a firm believer in Synthetic oils for everything, I use VP synthetic 2 stroke oil and Have never had any problems. It states on the label that one mix is good for saws calling for a mixture of 40:1 And the same mixture for 50:1 so covers both with one mix.


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## ClimberBusinessman (Apr 6, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I hate to admit but about fifty years ago in my teens, once when I ran out of
> 2 stroke motor oil I mixed 4 stroke oil instead because that is all I had
> and ran a saw for a few days with a Stihl chainsaw. I couldnt tell the difference
> though I probably shortened the lifespan a thousand hours ? ? ?


I once ran a hedge trimmer on gas mixed with plenty of bar and chain oil because I couldn't find the can of 2 stroke oil. It ran a little rough and smoked like crazy when it ran with that mixture. Perhaps that's the reason why it became so hard to start, but it was a bit hard to start from the point I got it. Definitely better to stick with the 2 stroke oil for an air-cooled engine.


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## ihookem (Apr 6, 2022)

In some Asian countries people run corn cooking oil in their 2 stroke mopeds. Never seemed to matter.


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## preventec47 (Apr 6, 2022)

Canyon Angler said:


> I always heard that TC*W*-3 is no-go in air-cooled engines because they get way hotter than water-cooled outboards, and presumably get carboned up when using TC*W*-3.
> 
> Can't carbon deposits cause problems with piston rings (like scuffing/scoring/seizing)?


Thanks for reminding me. I learned that lesson 30 years ago and forgot. I found out a problem we have is it is difficult if not impossible to find the genuine air cooled 2 stroke oil in large gallon containers at prices similar to outboard motor 2 stroke oils. It seems like a scam to get us all to pay way more than 100 bucks a gallon for a bunch of the little 2.6 ounce bottles. I have looked at Home Depot, Walmart and several auto parts stores for large bottles of air cooled 2 stroke oil and have not found any.


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## camel2019 (Apr 6, 2022)

ihookem said:


> In some Asian countries people run corn cooking oil in their 2 stroke mopeds. Never seemed to matter.


Guess if you mixed it real heavy and tuned the carb it would work castor oil is a form of vegetable oil and it worked in a lot of engines for a long time.


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## camel2019 (Apr 6, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Thanks for reminding me. I learned that lesson 30 years ago and forgot. I found out a problem we have is it is difficult if not impossible to find the genuine air cooled 2 stroke oil in large gallon containers at prices similar to outboard motor 2 stroke oils. It seems like a scam to get us all to pay way more than 100 bucks a gallon for a bunch of the little 2.6 ounce bottles. I have looked at Home Depot, Walmart and several auto parts stores for large bottles of air cooled 2 stroke oil and have not found any.


I have no problem finding it can get stuff by the gallon at Walmart for small engines and castrol snowmobile oil should work as well.


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## ihookem (Apr 6, 2022)

I am looking for some bigger jugs of it too. I can get TCW3 by the gallon but I cant find Stihl in anything bigger than a pint. I can get Amsoil in quarts. At 50/1 that makes 12 gal. At 64/1 that makes 16 gallons and happy with that . It does cost about $12 now days though. If you go to an Amsoil dealer, you likely could get it i gallons. Even 30 gallon barrels of oil were available a few years ago , so a gallon should be no problem. Of course, some people hate Amsoil dealers. However, now days, it seems most big stores carry a limited supply of Amsoil so no dealers to deal with.


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## farfromiowa (Apr 6, 2022)

EchoRomeoCharlie said:


> Run whatever oil ratio you want...why do we need a thread on it though?


When a thread starts out with "For what is is worth" you know it is going to be packed full of data and statistics. 
We also had a fun and very informative thread about covering the saw with tape to make it easier to clean.


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## camel2019 (Apr 6, 2022)

ihookem said:


> I am looking for some bigger jugs of it too. I can get TCW3 by the gallon but I cant find Stihl in anything bigger than a pint. I can get Amsoil in quarts. At 50/1 that makes 12 gal. At 64/1 that makes 16 gallons and happy with that . It does cost about $12 now days though. If you go to an Amsoil dealer, you likely could get it i gallons. Even 30 gallon barrels of oil were available a few years ago , so a gallon should be no problem. Of course, some people hate Amsoil dealers. However, now days, it seems most big stores carry a limited supply of Amsoil so no dealers to deal with.


We have a couple oil dealers here where you can get anything you want not excluding steam oil(600 weight btw same thing model t rear ends use).
shouldn’t be too hard to find 2 stroke oil by the gallon here in southern Ontario it seems Walmart is the cheapest at $21 a gallon for castrol super snowmobile. I buy what I can where I can same goes for bar and chain because that also gets mixed with motor oil and a little grease to oil spray my trucks for the winter real takie never hard ends and keep the salt from rusting my old girls out.


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## Captain Bruce (Apr 6, 2022)

Cricket said:


> I had an ancient - I want to say Homelite? - been years - that was so sloppy that it required a mix about double what it actually called for. Smoked like a chimney, but ran and cut like a champ. Not sure what happened to that thing - lost it in a move, I suspect.


All of those antique saws...Homelite, Craftsman, Poulan, McCulloch seemed to like 32:1. I was taught to mix at 40:1. That way, it either smokes, or screams


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## camel2019 (Apr 6, 2022)

Captain Bruce said:


> All of those antique saws...Homelite, Craftsman, Poulan, McCulloch seemed to like 32:1. I was taught to mix at 40:1. That way, it either smokes, or screams


All my old girls get 32 to 1 most of my antique/vintage saws call for 16 to 1 but that was back in the 30 weight days.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

SS396driver said:


> From what I understand too much oil isnt good either . More oil less gas =engine runs lean , will it damage the saw I'm not sure . I run a little fat on oil but my saws have been tuned to run on the rich end of the spectrum.


I see guys make this same lame comment all the time. Are you adjusting your carb every 20 degree change in temps? Because that temp drop leans the carb out a hell of a lot more than a change in oil ratio.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

ClimberBusinessman said:


> You run the risk of clogging the carb or having carbon deposits. Also, if you're running equipment meant for 50:1 on 30:1 without tuning the carb, I'd expect it to run a bit rough and lower on power. You might also want to think about some of the potentially negative health effects from breathing all that extra oil in the exhaust. I don't think you're going to extend the life of your equipment that much, and you might even worsen performance in the meantime. If you must run 30:1, at least tune the carb and run a fuel additive like B12 fuel additive from time to time to clear out the carbon buildup.


Clogging the carb? You joking?


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Using too much oil will eventually cause rings to stick, Resulting in lost compression. It would definitely help the bearings though.


Actually the opposite is true.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

Canyon Angler said:


> I always heard that TC*W*-3 is no-go in air-cooled engines because they get way hotter than water-cooled outboards, and presumably get carboned up when using TC*W*-3.
> 
> Can't carbon deposits cause problems with piston rings (like scuffing/scoring/seizing)?


This.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Modern JASO FC/FD 2stroke oils (aircooled ***) have also lover flash points.....like Shell advance ultra 2t....or any modern 2stroke oils labeled for mofas/Scooters etc...
> 
> And yes.....I would never use TC3-W labeled oil un any aircooled ***
> 
> EDIT : why is O*P*E labeled as a swear word?


Flash point is useful for shipping and storage and NOTHING else.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

RK-NL said:


> Adding extra oil to the mix has a few drawbacks. Oil burns hotter than fuel. If you're not spooging out of the exhaust at 30:1 it means you're running significantly hotter than on 50:1.
> 
> When you go from 50:1 to 30:1 you go from 2% oil and 98% fuel to 3.3% oil and 96.7% fuel. When you go from sea-level to about 650ft you lean out your mixture by about 1%. So you're right saying that it's not likely to cause a lean seize, if you adjust the carb properly. You might get some difficulty starting, because the pilot jet is a tad on the small side, but it shouldn't be anything major. You might foul a plug if it doesn't start right up, but that's nothing you can't fix with a lighter and a plug wrench.
> 
> I don't think running more oil has any added benefits on the wear of the saw. It's designed for 50:1. Modern oils are very slick and do a great job creating film. By running 1.3% more oil through the saw, you will increase the cost of running it. I don't think any possible savings in service life would offset the cost of the extra oil over the life of the saw.


Spooging is caused by the mixture being rich for the load in the majority of cases.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

cscltd said:


> (jump to 13min for numbers)
> 
> this video says different, under full load cylinder was 29c or 84f hotter when using 25:1 compared to 50:1 and only after 3 cuts too!
> and you may not see carbon build up as much if your are using outboard oil (water cooled) which has a lower flash point than air cooled oil hence will burn off at lower temp (even before the oil does it job of lubricating the hot side corner of piston)
> most oils that say are for both outboards and chainsaw are water cooled oil in disguise



That test is so poorly done its meaningless.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

cscltd said:


> (jump to 13min for numbers)
> 
> this video says different, under full load cylinder was 29c or 84f hotter when using 25:1 compared to 50:1 and only after 3 cuts too!
> and you may not see carbon build up as much if your are using outboard oil (water cooled) which has a lower flash point than air cooled oil hence will burn off at lower temp (even before the oil does it job of lubricating the hot side corner of piston)
> most oils that say are for both outboards and chainsaw are water cooled oil in disguise



Outboard oil often has a higher Flashpoint. Not that it makes any difference. It also has more heavy oil and no detergent, so it will make a air cooled motor develope deposits, which is why TCW3 oils are not reccomened by any MFG of air cooled equipment


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

huskihl said:


> So many blanket statements in this thread. The old-timers still believe that more oil in the mix causes carbon, regardless of what oil it is. Many oils today actually burn cleaner at heavier ratios because of the detergent. But there are also many that leave excess carbon at heavier ratios.
> 
> As far as heat, it takes heat to make power. Until you reach the temperature at which the motor can’t survive, more heat is better. Just because that saw was 84° hotter using more oil doesn’t mean anything. Anywhere near the muffler and the temp can change from 300° to 800° by moving the thermometer 1/2”. That saw was probably tuned lean out of the box and then it was way too lean with the added oil. One thing is for certain, the operator had no idea either way.
> 
> If you only cut firewood for your home you can run about any ratio you want south of 100:1 and you’ll never wear a saw out. One thing you will never see on here though is a guy who preaches his 100:1 ratios and comes back asking why the bearings took a shît in his saw


It's like every old wives tale about two cycle oil repeated in one spot!


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## preventec47 (Apr 7, 2022)

I am now convinced that TC3 2 stroke oil and oils developed for marine outboards is not optimum for hot chain saws.

I looked at the JASO list


https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf


And I see that Huskvarna, Echo, Stens oils for chainsaws are all "JASO FD"
so I think anything I buy by the gallon should also meet JASO FD rating.

I do not think a lot of "SNOWMOBIL" oils meet the JASO FD rating
For guys who are buying snowmobil oils for use with their chainsaws,
do their spec sheets specify for air cooled motors ? Just because of the enviroment in which they are used, I dont think snowmobile motors get as hot as chainsaws in hot summer heat...

Here are the gallon snowmobile oils sold by WALMART online:

*Red Line RED41005 2-Stroke Snowmobile Oil $60 shipped*​( says Air Cooled engines )

*Castrol 2T 2 Stroke Super Snowmobile Oil, 4 Liter $30 shipped*​says JASO FB* and NOT JASO FD*

*CITGO Petroleum 214659 1 gal Mystik JT-4 Synthetic 2 Cycle Snowmobile Oil $32 plus $16 shipping*​
*Sea-Doo/Ski-Doo XPS 2 Stroke Synthetic Oil Gallon 779127 $66*​
*Polaris 2882202 Synthetic 2-Cycle Engine Oil $42*​
*Lucas Oil 10847 Snowmobile Oil - 1 Gallon $43 Full Synthetic*​
*Lucas Oil 10557 Land and Sea Oil - 1 Gallon Semi Synthetic $34*​
*Royal Purple ROY04511 1 gal Snow 2-C Snowmobile Oil $68 plus $10*​
I cannot see the spec sheet details for any of these oils at the Walmart website....
Do any of you have these oils on hand to read the labels ? or have checked out their websites ?


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## LesL (Apr 7, 2022)

I enjoy “experimenting” as much as the next person but not with my £900 saw. Stihl have high tech laboratories with 500 chemists and engineers. And they test their kit all around the world. They rightly have a reputation for high quality they want to retain. For a few pounds more I will continue to use their oil at 50:1. Added benefit that now I have to use E10 it has fuel stabiliser unlike the cheaper brands.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

Nothing wrong with FC either. There was a small change between FC and FD. The Jump from FB to FC was much more substantial.
Citgo/Mystik Sea and Snow and Citgo aircooled are both FD.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

LesL said:


> I enjoy “experimenting” as much as the next person but not with my £900 saw. Stihl have high tech laboratories with 500 chemists and engineers. And they test their kit all around the world. They rightly have a reputation for high quality they want to retain. For a few pounds more I will continue to use their oil at 50:1. Added benefit that now I have to use E10 it has fuel stabiliser unlike the cheaper brands.


I woukd bet you Stihl has zero chemistsbqorking on two cycle oil. Why would they? They do not mfg two cycle oil. The manufacturer of oil they sell even varies by country.
Stihl oil as sold in the US is pure garbage for a premium price.


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## preventec47 (Apr 7, 2022)

JASO EXPLAINED








JASO Explained Part 2: 2-Stroke


JASO Explained PART 2: JASO 2-Stroke Engine Oil Specification The brief history of JASO with regards to 4-stroke requirements was described in JASO Explained: Part 1 and a lot of the same reas…




www.mototribology.com


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## LesL (Apr 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I woukd bet you Stihl has zero chemistsbqorking on two cycle oil. Why would they? They do not mfg two cycle oil. The manufacturer of oil they sell even varies by country.
> Stihl oil as sold in the US is pure garbage for a premium price.


Shocking if the actual quality varies by where it’s made. I’m in the UK and my container of Stihl HP Super says made in Germany to “ISO-L-EGD Low Smoke-Fuel Stabaliser”.


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2022)

I bought a case of synthetic Mobil 1 Racing 2T oil (for air-cooled motocross bikes) back when that oil was discontinued about 12 yrs ago or so at a deep discount from Auto Zone and I am still burning it. 

If I were to buy new oil today I would probably buy synthetic Motul 800.

OIL THREAD YAY!!!


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> it is difficult if not impossible to find the genuine air cooled 2 stroke oil in large gallon containers at prices similar to outboard motor 2 stroke oils. It seems like a scam to get us all to pay way more than 100 bucks a gallon


Amazon sells 4 liters (over a gallon) of synthetic Motul 800 for $63 delivered.


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## camel2019 (Apr 7, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I am now convinced that TC3 2 stroke oil and oils developed for marine outboards is not optimum for hot chain saws.
> 
> I looked at the JASO list
> 
> ...


Most snowmobile oil meets the TC rating witch is also for air cooled equipment


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## camel2019 (Apr 7, 2022)

LesL said:


> Shocking if the actual quality varies by where it’s made. I’m in the UK and my container of Stihl HP Super says made in Germany to “ISO-L-EGD Low Smoke-Fuel Stabaliser”.


Stihl oil in Canada at least is made by castrol.


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## djones (Apr 7, 2022)

As a user of old saws from the 70's with a recommended mixture rate of 20-1, I find that running 40-1 in everything has no adverse effect on my equipment once the carb is suitably adjusted. Naturally my wife finds the mixture still too rich and requires that I strip down to my skivvies before entering her domain. As you wish, my dear.


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## dave ensign (Apr 7, 2022)

Oil ratio is strictly a matter of age, {NOT THE AGE OF THE EQUIPMENT} but rather the age of the mixer. If
your old enough to have used SAE30 at 16/1 then you tend to still mix a little rich and probably drink a little
more.


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## LesL (Apr 7, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Most snowmobile oil meets the TC rating witch is also for air cooled equipment


From my Stihl 362 handbook….


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## camel2019 (Apr 7, 2022)

LesL said:


> From my Stihl 362 handbook….


That’s TCW not TC. TCW is for water cooled outboards TC is for air cooled


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## LesL (Apr 7, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> That’s TCW not TC. TCW is for water cooled outboards TC is for air cooled


The TC and TCW standard was apparently superseded years ago. I read even the very lowest grade oils meet that spec. In the UK it’s usually the ISO organisation that sets the standards.


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## preventec47 (Apr 7, 2022)

LesL said:


> The TC and TCW standard was apparently superseded years ago. I read even the very lowest grade oils meet that spec. In the UK it’s usually the ISO organisation that sets the standards.


I dont think I have seen any brand of 2 stroke oil that specifies it is exclusively for air cooled motors only other than the oils from the chain saw mfgrs ie Stihl, Husqvarna, Craftsman, Echo etc. I thought I was doing ok because I had a gallon and a half left of
Quicksilver pure synthetic outboard motor oil and using it in my chainsaw. Sure it seems to run ok but evidently I am shaving hundreds of hours off the useful life of
the machine by doing so. About 15 years ago Pennzoil sold a specific for AIRCOOLED
2 stroke motors oil but when I google it I see it has been discontinued. Qakerstate
says it has a specific air cooled oil but I have not found it anywhere for sale.


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## camel2019 (Apr 7, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> That’s TCW not TC





LesL said:


> The TC and TCW standard was apparently superseded years ago. I read even the very lowest grade oils meet that spec. In the UK it’s usually the ISO organisation that sets the standards.


Tc is still for air cooled equipment though and TCW3 is the new outboard boat motor spec


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## LesL (Apr 7, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I dont think I have seen any brand of 2 stroke oil that specifies it is exclusively for air cooled motors only other than the oils from the chain saw mfgrs ie Stihl, Husqvarna, Craftsman, Echo etc. I thought I was doing ok because I had a gallon and a half left of
> Quicksilver pure synthetic outboard motor oil and using it in my chainsaw. Sure it seems to run ok but evidently I am shaving hundreds of hours off the useful life of
> the machine by doing so. About 15 years ago Pennzoil sold a specific for AIRCOOLED
> 2 stroke motors oil but when I google it I see it has been discontinued. Qakerstate
> says it has a specific air cooled oil but I have not found it anywhere for sale.


Its such a minefield. Right or wrong I feel more comfortable running my expensive saw and brushcutters with high quality oil approved by the manufacturer. I found the ISO standard document for the current highest grade ISO-L-EGD oil (ex Stihl HP Super) and it requires really extensive testing and fuel stabilisation to meet that high standard. In the UK Stihl HP Super is £35 for 5l so not that expensive for the peace of mind.


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## Ted Jenkins (Apr 7, 2022)

djones said:


> As a user of old saws from the 70's with a recommended mixture rate of 20-1, I find that running 40-1 in everything has no adverse effect on my equipment once the carb is suitably adjusted. Naturally my wife finds the mixture still too rich and requires that I strip down to my skivvies before entering her domain. As you wish, my dear.



After all the debate of oils it still goes on with no restriction. I use more oil than most here by double. I buy Supertech at Walmart which works just fine. I think that the ratio sweet spot is 32:1 to 36:1 and have more than 60 years of use to back it up. By far the biggest issue is tuning which changes. A hot day vs. a cold dry day etc. Thanks


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

LesL said:


> Shocking if the actual quality varies by where it’s made. I’m in the UK and my container of Stihl HP Super says made in Germany to “ISO-L-EGD Low Smoke-Fuel Stabaliser”.


Canadian Stihl oil is made by Castrol Canada. The US branded Stihl oil is made by Omni.


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

LesL said:


> Its such a minefield. Right or wrong I feel more comfortable running my expensive saw and brushcutters with high quality oil approved by the manufacturer. I found the ISO standard document for the current highest grade ISO-L-EGD oil (ex Stihl HP Super) and it requires really extensive testing and fuel stabilisation to meet that high standard. In the UK Stihl HP Super is £35 for 5l so not that expensive for the peace of mind.


Can you attach the document?


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## bwalker (Apr 7, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I dont think I have seen any brand of 2 stroke oil that specifies it is exclusively for air cooled motors only other than the oils from the chain saw mfgrs ie Stihl, Husqvarna, Craftsman, Echo etc. I thought I was doing ok because I had a gallon and a half left of
> Quicksilver pure synthetic outboard motor oil and using it in my chainsaw. Sure it seems to run ok but evidently I am shaving hundreds of hours off the useful life of
> the machine by doing so. About 15 years ago Pennzoil sold a specific for AIRCOOLED
> 2 stroke motors oil but when I google it I see it has been discontinued. Qakerstate
> says it has a specific air cooled oil but I have not found it anywhere for sale.


* It's not confusing if you find and run a Jaso FC,FD or ISO EGC,EGD oil. Pretty simple.*


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## Captain Bruce (Apr 7, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Thanks for reminding me. I learned that lesson 30 years ago and forgot. I found out a problem we have is it is difficult if not impossible to find the genuine air cooled 2 stroke oil in large gallon containers at prices similar to outboard motor 2 stroke oils. It seems like a scam to get us all to pay way more than 100 bucks a gallon for a bunch of the little 2.6 ounce bottles. I have looked at Home Depot, Walmart and several auto parts stores for large bottles of air cooled 2 stroke oil and have not found any.


Well said. I run marine 2-stroke thru my oil-injected 40hp Yamaha, on an old pontoon boat, but would never mix it with gasoline. Thats nuts.


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## ihookem (Apr 7, 2022)

BWalker , page back or so you said that Stihl is garbage at a premium price. I guess the next question is, what do you run in your chainsaws and why? I have run a lot of Stihl and Amsoil. I have also run quite a bit of cheap stuff . What is a good chainsaw oil?


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 7, 2022)

Captain Bruce said:


> Well said. I run marine 2-stroke thru my oil-injected 40hp Yamaha, on an old pontoon boat, but would never mix it with gasoline. Thats nuts.


I have a 3-cylinder Yamaha 40 with oil injection, too, but I mix at least a little oil with the gas (like 100-to-1) so that at least there's SOME oil in the fuel if the oil injection setup goes belly-up. 

I've heard of people having trouble with the oil injection system just scrapping it and mixing oil into the fuel at 50-to-1 like in the olden days. Works fine, from what I hear. (But I don't think it will work with Evinrude E-TECs.)


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Apr 7, 2022)

huskihl said:


> So many blanket statements in this thread. The old-timers still believe that more oil in the mix causes carbon, regardless of what oil it is. Many oils today actually burn cleaner at heavier ratios because of the detergent. But there are also many that leave excess carbon at heavier ratios.
> 
> As far as heat, it takes heat to make power. Until you reach the temperature at which the motor can’t survive, more heat is better. Just because that saw was 84° hotter using more oil doesn’t mean anything. Anywhere near the muffler and the temp can change from 300° to 800° by moving the thermometer 1/2”. That saw was probably tuned lean out of the box and then it was way too lean with the added oil. One thing is for certain, the operator had no idea either way.
> 
> If you only cut firewood for your home you can run about any ratio you want south of 100:1 and you’ll never wear a saw out. One thing you will never see on here though is a guy who preaches his 100:1 ratios and comes back asking why the bearings took a shît in his saw


I don't use my saws too much, but my leaf blower and 19 year old weedwhacker get used heavily. Been mixing the weedwhacker 100:1 with Amsoil Saber since year 3 with it, and the blower I acquired a couple years ago, but is now getting the same mix. Weedwhacker still has 135 PSI cold, and it's never been apart for scraping carbon, because there is next to none. Any oil other than Saber I wouldn't dare mix 100:1. If the rings are perfect, pretty safe bet the bearings are, too.

Neighbor buys Saber from me, and cut an entire 10 acre plot with the one Stihl saw he had at the time mixed at 80:1. That's cut down, limbed, and chopped up every single tree up there with that ONE saw! I couldn't believe it when I went up there. Saw still runs great and also has never been apart for anything, not even a carb clean.


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## thenne1713 (Apr 8, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> For what its worth, I dont ever use any of the elite synthetic 2 stroke oils for chain saws, but I frequently use 2 stroke oils for outboard motors and conventional 2 stroke oils for air cooled motors meeting the min specs. What I do to baby my engines somewhat is I run all my mixes at 30 to 1 instead of 50 to 1 to assure a little extra lubrication to my
> bearings and cylinder walls etc. while running and also to leave heavier coating when saws are idle. I would expect there to be excessive carbon buildup perhaps but so far I have not seen it. The saws seem to run just as well and
> I dont really pay much more for oil as I usually buy it by the gallon.


Some years back, my new $700 HUSQVARNA saw was at end of day on day 2, and would not restart for one final cut, I thought out of fuel, and put in truck; I did not use again for 2-3yrs, due to back issues, and then it would not start. Dealer said Low compression $600+ to repair w/ new PC kit, no warranty, so I took it down, found ring locked down on exhaust side; thin coat looked like MAGIC MARKER on the ring, after breaking to remove. Very slight scratch. Had run 40:1 name brand DINO for break-in, but new piston ring ($12) and back in business w/ 125-PSI (MFR says 120-MIN to run); that is now 14-yrs ago, runs great milling, suspect compression has improved as ring seated, but not tested and I NOW USE 50:1 ECHO PERFORMANCE BLEND SYNTHETIC. ECHO was FIRST to use Synthetic and offer a 5-yrs guarantee, when Stihl and others were still 1-yr warranty and Dino Oil. REDLINE article once stated (similar to " at what temperature does your oil change from a LUBE into GOO Adhesive?"


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## bwalker (Apr 8, 2022)

ihookem said:


> BWalker , page back or so you said that Stihl is garbage at a premium price. I guess the next question is, what do you run in your chainsaws and why? I have run a lot of Stihl and Amsoil. I have also run quite a bit of cheap stuff . What is a good chainsaw oil?


Anything in the FC or FD list is fine. If you want to stick to MFG oil Husky and Echo Red Armour are both good.
I ran out of Red Armour this spring and am currently using up some Honda HP2 and Yamalube 2R I have. Probably go back to Red Armour after that.


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## preventec47 (Apr 8, 2022)

As far as I can tell Lucas Pure Synthetic for snowmobiles


https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS-2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Snowmobile.pdf


is the best deal at $37 per gallon "INCLUDING" shipping. ( Amazon)
The specs linked to above say it is good for air cooled engines like chainsaws
and it appears to have some good ratings by the testing organizations.
What is hard to tell from reading the specs is whether it would be good
for marine use in outboards as they say it is good for about everything ? ? ?


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Apr 8, 2022)

Can't be good for everything. Not possible. Snowmobiles these days tend to be liquid cooled, and run a majority of the time below 32°F - doesn't sound like anything I'd want to run in a hard working saw. Probably fine for a small limbing saw that you don't push too hard. 

Now lets compare that stuff to Saber. It is MUCH much thinner - that and the very low pour point are my first red flags for anything to do with summertime temps in an air cooled engine. And look at the differences in flash point - HUGE:



________________________________________________


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 8, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> As far as I can tell Lucas Pure Synthetic for snowmobiles
> 
> 
> https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS-2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Snowmobile.pdf
> ...


Trying to save a few bucks on 2T oil seems like false economy to me.
It's like buying the cheapest house paint, cheapest roofing shingles, or cheapest tires you can find.

Paying $37 for a gallon of 2T oil instead of $65 (for the Motul 800 I linked to above -- an oil known to be good for chainsaws) will save you about 22¢ per ounce of oil used, or about 66¢ on a gallon of 2mix. Considering that non-ethanol gas costs around $4.50 per gallon, this represents a whopping savings of 15% ... do ya feel_ lucky?_

As for outboard engine oil, I sure as hell wouldn't run anything not labeled as TCW-3, and depending on which engine I was running it in, I would want the motor manufacturer''s signoff on the oil, as well. Have you priced an outboard motor lately?


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## thenne1713 (Apr 8, 2022)

ihookem said:


> I am looking for some bigger jugs of it too. I can get TCW3 by the gallon but I cant find Stihl in anything bigger than a pint. I can get Amsoil in quarts. At 50/1 that makes 12 gal. At 64/1 that makes 16 gallons and happy with that . It does cost about $12 now days though. If you go to an Amsoil dealer, you likely could get it i gallons. Even 30 gallon barrels of oil were available a few years ago , so a gallon should be no problem. Of course, some people hate Amsoil dealers. However, now days, it seems most big stores carry a limited supply of Amsoil so no dealers to deal with.


So you use in your air cooled engine/s an oil that is listed in EVERY air-cooled MANUAL to NOT use, because it is designed for cooler running water-cooled engines, and LESS water contamination? I will PASS on anyhting else YOU have to say.


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## bwalker (Apr 8, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> As far as I can tell Lucas Pure Synthetic for snowmobiles
> 
> 
> https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS-2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Snowmobile.pdf
> ...


A few guys have had problems with Lucas.


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## camel2019 (Apr 8, 2022)

Canyon Angler said:


> Trying to save a few bucks on 2T oil seems like false economy to me.
> It's like buying the cheapest house paint, cheapest roofing shingles, or cheapest tires you can find.
> 
> Paying $37 for a gallon of 2T oil instead of $65 (for the Motul 800 I linked to above -- an oil known to be good for chainsaws) will save you about 22¢ per ounce of oil used, or about 66¢ on a gallon of 2mix. Considering that non-ethanol gas costs around $4.50 per gallon, this represents a whopping savings of 15% ... do ya feel_ lucky?_
> ...


$65 for a gallon of oil is just outrageous I’m happy with my motomaster that meets FC standards it’s now $36 for 5 litres and I will only buy it when it’s on sale.


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## ihookem (Apr 8, 2022)

thenne1713 said:


> So you use in your air cooled engine/s an oil that is listed in EVERY air-cooled MANUAL to NOT use, because it is designed for cooler running water-cooled engines, and LESS water contamination? I will PASS on anyhting else YOU have to say.



In response to post # 73, where did I say I was using in my engine/s an oil not made for air cooled engines??? Now, I know you are from Kentucky, so your reading skills are likely at about a 3rd grade level on a good day. I was talking about getting TCW3 in gallons , but can't find Stihl oil anything bigger than a pint. So lighten up on the bottle when you come here and make an a$$ out of yourself, it was only 8:17 AM when you posted and already half drunk. If ya don't like my response to your jerk post, than ignore me and I will do the same. It's an oil thread , so relax.


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## bwalker (Apr 8, 2022)

ihookem said:


> In response to post # 73, where did I say I was using in my engine/s an oil not made for air cooled engines??? Now, I know you are from Kentucky, so your reading skills are likely at about a 3rd grade level on a good day. I was talking about getting TCW3 in gallons , but can't find Stihl oil anything bigger than a pint. So lighten up on the bottle when you come here and make an a$$ out of yourself, it was only 8:17 AM when you posted and already half drunk. If ya don't like my response to your jerk post, than ignore me and I will do the same. It's an oil thread , so relax.


Citgo aircooled is a good FC/FD rated oil snd should be available local. Inuse to buy it for something like $7 a quart.


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## preventec47 (Apr 8, 2022)

I am still fuzzy on the tech specs that pertain directly to air cooled engines.
I read the testing methods for the FB FC anf FD ratings and I didnt see anything stand out that said "good for hot air cooled engines" The reason why I pointed out LUCAS snowmobile oil was that it was "pure synthetic" ( evidenced by very low temp pour point) .... dino oil freezes solid at much higher temps. That is a very good thing for grease and oils if you are in the Artic and it gets 40 below zero. I cant really see
what the benefit of pure synthetic is for 2 stroke motors where the oil is consumed.
In 4 stroke motors the synthetic oil lasts twice as long before turning to trash.
I think I can see that TCW3 ( something similar) rating is definitely for water cooled.....
but I dont see the spec that says "I am for air cooled hot engines" So more commonly I am just looking for the oil description where the mfgr says it is for air cooled engines.


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## Not_Husky (Apr 9, 2022)

ihookem said:


> BWalker , page back or so you said that Stihl is garbage at a premium price. I guess the next question is, what do you run in your chainsaws and why? I have run a lot of Stihl and Amsoil. I have also run quite a bit of cheap stuff . What is a good chainsaw oil?


IMO, Husqvarna & Stihl synthetic has preservatives & other additives to counter gasoline with ethanol. 
The saw will run at peak performance, be protected, and the mix won't oxidize & go bad in a can of the carb months or over winter. 
Buying top tier gasoline from Chevron, Mobile, Shell etc is even more important nowadays than the brand of 2-stroke. Ethanol increases the octane rating of poor quality, corrosive discount gasoline that will damage and destroy a 2-stroke fuel system quickly, even cause a saw to run lean & burn up. The damage will force down time, re-tuning, and repairs which will cost a great deal more than is saved at the pump. Running premium gas with synthetic oil will help ensure your saw will start and run right every time. Priceless. 
- I got some bad gas yesrs ago that wiped out the fuel systems of every small engine I had as well as all my neighbor's. It even took out the fuel pump in my truck. We refer to it as The Year of the Silent Spring, because everyone's lawn mower, trimmer & blower was dead after sitting over winter with bad gas in them. The repair shop had a mountain of tools & several months back log. A lot of people just bought new & abandoned their downed equipment at the saw shop because they had work to do & couldn't wait months on repairs. The local landfill also had a mountain of discarded small engine equipment, much of it like new. What a waste.


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## Not_Husky (Apr 9, 2022)

ihookem said:


> BWalker , page back or so you said that Stihl is garbage at a premium price. I guess the next question is, what do you run in your chainsaws and why? I have run a lot of Stihl and Amsoil. I have also run quite a bit of cheap stuff . What is a good chainsaw oil?


IMO, Husqvarna & Stihl synthetic has preservatives & other additives to counter gasoline with ethanol. 
The saw will run at peak performance, be protected, and the mix won't oxidize & go bad in a can of the carb months or over winter. 
Buying top tier gasoline from Chevron, Mobile, Shell etc is even more important nowadays than the brand of 2-stroke. Ethanol increases the octane rating of poor quality, corrosive discount gasoline that will damage and destroy a 2-stroke fuel system quickly, even cause a saw to run lean & burn up. The damage will force down time, re-tuning, and repairs which will cost a great deal more than is saved at the pump. Running premium gas with synthetic oil will help ensure your saw will start and run right every time. Priceless. 
- I got some bad gas yesrs ago that wiped out the fuel systems of every small engine I had as well as all my neighbor's. It even took out the fuel pump in my truck. We refer to it as The Year of the Silent Spring, because everyone's lawn mower, trimmer & blower was dead after sitting over winter with bad gas in them. The repair shop had a mountain of tools & several months back log. A lot of people just bought new & abandoned their downed equipment at the saw shop because they had work to do & couldn't wait months on repairs. The local landfill also had a mountain of discarded small engine equipment, much of it like new. What a waste. Last year the saw shop closed. But before he did, he recommended that everyone just buy the pre mixed two stroke fuel. It wasn't just his opinion, but also that of Husqvarna. The varying quality of fuel was costing them a fortune in warranty claims and in brand destruction. People just assumed the problem was the quality & design of the saw, regardless of brand, and would toss their perfectly good equipment & switch to a different brand. Search for 'reconditioned Husqvarna chainsaw' and you'll find many like-new consumer line saws at a discount. Professionals have figured out where to buy good gas. Home Depot shoppers will buy the cheapest gas they can find, and end up returning a badly running saw that often won't start as a result..


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## bwalker (Apr 9, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I am still fuzzy on the tech specs that pertain directly to air cooled engines.
> I read the testing methods for the FB FC anf FD ratings and I didnt see anything stand out that said "good for hot air cooled engines" The reason why I pointed out LUCAS snowmobile oil was that it was "pure synthetic" ( evidenced by very low temp pour point) .... dino oil freezes solid at much higher temps. That is a very good thing for grease and oils if you are in the Artic and it gets 40 below zero. I cant really see
> what the benefit of pure synthetic is for 2 stroke motors where the oil is consumed.
> In 4 stroke motors the synthetic oil lasts twice as long before turning to trash.
> ...


Lucas is a snake oil company and they don't make any actually certified oils.
I would bet their full synthetic actually isn't and it's doped up with solvent to make pour point.


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## LesL (Apr 9, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I am still fuzzy on the tech specs that pertain directly to air cooled engines.
> I read the testing methods for the FB FC anf FD ratings and I didnt see anything stand out that said "good for hot air cooled engines" The reason why I pointed out LUCAS snowmobile oil was that it was "pure synthetic" ( evidenced by very low temp pour point) .... dino oil freezes solid at much higher temps. That is a very good thing for grease and oils if you are in the Artic and it gets 40 below zero. I cant really see
> what the benefit of pure synthetic is for 2 stroke motors where the oil is consumed.
> In 4 stroke motors the synthetic oil lasts twice as long before turning to trash.
> ...


That’s an interesting point. I checked the ISO 13738 report entitled “Lubricants, industrial oils and related products (class L) — Family E (Internal combustion engine oils) — Specifications for two-stroke-cycle gasoline engine oils (categories EGB, EGC and EGD)”. 
It doesn’t discuss at all air or water cooled only the specification of each category to assist engine manufacturers in their recommendation to customers. This section of the report explains the scope and purpose. 

“A.2 Purpose
This International Standard aims to correctly classify two-stroke oils according to their performance level. The intent is to enable engine manufacturers to better communicate the lubricant needs of their engines to consumers and thus assist the consumer in selecting the proper lubricant from the many available in the marketplace. By doing so, it is hoped that the service life of two-stroke cycle engines may be extended, thereby increasing consumer satisfaction.
A.3 Examples of assignment of performance classification
Examples of the assignments of performance classifications to two different two-stroke oils (candidate oil A and candidate oil B) are shown in Table A.1. Candidate oil A is assigned the classification “EGC”, while candidate oil B is classified “EGB”. Note that although candidate oil B meets the lubricity, initial torque, detergency, piston skirt deposits and exhaust system blocking requirements of EGC, it fails to meet the exhaust smoke requirement of EGC and, therefore, shall be classified no higher than EGB.”


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## bwalker (Apr 9, 2022)

LesL said:


> That’s an interesting point. I checked the ISO 13738 report entitled “Lubricants, industrial oils and related products (class L) — Family E (Internal combustion engine oils) — Specifications for two-stroke-cycle gasoline engine oils (categories EGB, EGC and EGD)”.
> It doesn’t discuss at all air or water cooled only the specification of each category to assist engine manufacturers in their recommendation to customers. This section of the report explains the scope and purpose.
> 
> “A.2 Purpose
> ...


It's a little more involved, but TCW3 oils are meant for water cooled marine motors and some constant throttle air cooled applications like Lawnboy mowers, Toro snowblower, etc.
JASO FC/FD and ISO EGD oils are designed for air cooled applications and high output, high stress liquid cooled applications. These are the oils you want to use in a chainsaw.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Apr 9, 2022)

You figure pond water, at least up here in the Northeast ranges from 33° up to a max of maybe 75° after a hot summer. That's some damn cold cooling water! A total loss system, too, so any heat picked up by said water is expelled with the water back into the pond or ocean. Water in an automobile's engine stays at 200°+ these days and never dips below that. 

The cylinder head of an air cooled 2-stroke can stay at 400° for the entire time a big load is placed upon it. The benefit of a good quality synthetic isn't just the significant reduction in carbon in the exhaust port and combustion chamber, and top of piston, but the ability to maintain piston ring, and piston to cylinder wall lubrication, even when the clearance has shrunk to .001" or less.

Thinking back to last summer when I took off from a grass strip on a hot summer afternoon, I watched my cylinder head temp gauge reach 397° during the extended climb out. A lesser oil would've given up and lead to immediate seizure at that temperature. My manual from the paramotor engine manufacturer says anything above 410° is guaranteed engine damage. Amsoil has tested Saber with cylinder head temps at 500°! They've also run it at 300:1, and it passed their testing with flying colors. They recommend 100:1 knowing from a marketing perspective, nobody would dare mix at 300:1 no matter what you told them.


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## bwalker (Apr 9, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> You figure pond water, at least up here in the Northeast ranges from 33° up to a max of maybe 75° after a hot summer. That's some damn cold cooling water! A total loss system, too, so any heat picked up by said water is expelled with the water back into the pond or ocean. Water in an automobile's engine stays at 200°+ these days and never dips below that.
> 
> The cylinder head of an air cooled 2-stroke can stay at 400° for the entire time a big load is placed upon it. The benefit of a good quality synthetic isn't just the significant reduction in carbon in the exhaust port and combustion chamber, and top of piston, but the ability to maintain piston ring, and piston to cylinder wall lubrication, even when the clearance has shrunk to .001" or less.
> 
> ...


Most Outboards have thermostats FWIW.
When you tread on the edge of burn down sooner or latter you will get bit and Amsoil won't save you. I've been there and done that with much more sophisticated instrumentation then that.


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## MikeRock (Apr 9, 2022)

How about non-ethanol 'premium' grades at local farm gas stations? Years ago all the Stihl manuals said to avoid high test/octane gasoline. The high octanes then were 100 or so...correct me if wrong, 1972. Now high octane is what, 93'ish? It doesn't seem to deteriorate, but I empty saws and stored fuel every couple of months.


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## KASH (Apr 10, 2022)

LawnBoy engines are not constant speed they have govenors which constantly vary the rpms according to grass conditions.
Kash


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## mbrick (Apr 10, 2022)

I think more important than "quality" gas is ethanol free. Now that I have it readily available nearby it is amazing how much longer carb and fuel systems last. Ethanol is horrible.

Carbs need service or rebuilding far less often. Ethanol gas left in a carb wreaks havoc on it.

I would pay significantly more for ethanol free if needed. A 5 gal can of VP premix is a good option if I could not find ethanol free at the pump, plus it smells great when running.


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## LesL (Apr 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's a little more involved, but TCW3 oils are meant for water cooled marine motors and some constant throttle air cooled applications like Lawnboy mowers, Toro snowblower, etc.
> JASO FC/FD and ISO EGD oils are designed for air cooled applications and high output, high stress liquid cooled applications. These are the oils you want to use in a chainsaw.



To confuse myself more, I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).


bwalker said:


> Lucas is a snake oil company and they don't make any actually certified oils.
> I would bet their full synthetic actually isn't and it's doped up with solvent to make pour point.


I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).


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## bwalker (Apr 10, 2022)

KASH said:


> LawnBoy engines are not constant speed they have govenors which constantly vary the rpms according to grass conditions.
> Kash


The purpose of the governor is to maintain a constant speed.


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## Bg boy (Apr 10, 2022)

I mixed in a ratio of 40:1 with quality two-stroke oil (Shtil and Husqvarna). Even in some cases I increase the proportions Only on the Chinese chainsaw 5800 I mix 25: 1, there it seems that it is a lot, but apparently the manufacturer has considered in view the input material


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## huskihl (Apr 10, 2022)

LesL said:


> To confuse myself more, I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).
> 
> I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).


We don’t have the Super here, only Ultra. I have no doubt that Super is better, it has to be, because Ultra is 80’s tech garbage. It’s the single dirtiest burning oil I’ve ever seen. Lubes ok though


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## bwalker (Apr 10, 2022)

LesL said:


> To confuse myself more, I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).
> 
> I read Stihl Ultra 2, which has a premium price (in the UK) and sold as having superior performance to Stihl HP Super, is only JASA B (ISO-L-EGB). Whereas HP Super is JASO D (ISO-L-EGD). On paper compliance with ISO-L-EGD means it should be much improved over a product only complying with ISO-EGB. So HP Super should be the superior oil. Assuming Stihl know what they are doing there must be something beyond the ISO/JASO specs I’m not aware of. (Sorry I’m a nerd about this stuff…pharma industry all my career).


Yes, Stihl Ultra is garbage sold at a premium price.
It was originally brought to market as a band aid fix to Stihls poorly designed 4mix motors.


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## turkeybob (Apr 10, 2022)

LesL said:


> I enjoy “experimenting” as much as the next person but not with my £900 saw. Stihl have high tech laboratories with 500 chemists and engineers. And they test their kit all around the world. They rightly have a reputation for high quality they want to retain. For a few pounds more I will continue to use their oil at 50:1. Added benefit that now I have to use E10 it has fuel stabiliser unlike the cheaper brands.


Where are you in the UK? In most of UK except north west, s/west and Scotland Esso supreme 99 is ethanol free, so as long as it comes out of Esso Southampton, it says E5 on pump, but this is to satisfy the greens, basically it means up to 5%, but contains none.


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## cookies (Apr 10, 2022)

A *centrifugal governor* is a specific type of governor with a feedback system that controls the speed of an engine by regulating the flow of fuel or working fluid, so as to maintain a near-constant speed. It uses the principle of proportional control.
In most small engines it is used to limit the maximum rpm by closing the choke plate although it can also be setup to maintain a specific rpm range.
Lucas grease and injector cleaner are the only products of theirs I use, their red grease has stopped several friends from needing yearly hub bearing replacement once I started using it and instructing them to buy it tho Im pretty sure they never used it once purchased LOL! meaning they get greased once a year maybe twice if i can catch the equipment driving by AND get them to stop for 5 minutes.


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## LesL (Apr 10, 2022)

turkeybob said:


> Where are you in the UK? In most of UK except north west, s/west and Scotland Esso supreme 99 is ethanol free, so as long as it comes out of Esso Southampton, it says E5 on pump, but this is to satisfy the greens, basically it means up to 5%, but contains none.


Interesting. I’m in Essex. There are a few places still selling E5. I use E10 as it’s all my local garage sells. I’ve not seen Esso Supreme…will keep a lookout. I’m not so worried for my new Stihl gear but E10 probably isn’t doing my old Westwood/Briggs and Stratton sit on mower much good.


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## LesL (Apr 10, 2022)

turkeybob said:


> Where are you in the UK? In most of UK except north west, s/west and Scotland Esso supreme 99 is ethanol free, so as long as it comes out of Esso Southampton, it says E5 on pump, but this is to satisfy the greens, basically it means up to 5%, but contains none.


Thanks so much. I just found a local garage (Ongar, Essex) that sells it. Will get some and give it a go in my mower tomorrow


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## turkeybob (Apr 11, 2022)

LesL said:


> Thanks so much. I just found a local garage (Ongar, Essex) that sells it. Will get some and give it a go in my mower tomorrow


Try it your Stihl's, I feel my stuff runs better on it. Plus the super unleaded is more consistent quality. The E10 separates out really quickly and if for whatever reason, job type, mechanical issue, holiday or illness etc, and you leave some fuel in your equipment you have no need to worry. For sure for the mower it's better, I still add a bit of fuel stabilizer in my 4 stroke stuff, mower and genny etc, then if it doesn't get used for a bit there's no danger of problems. Husqvarna XP 2 stroke is good also and has stabilizer in as well and smells better than Stihl oil!!


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## LesL (Apr 11, 2022)

turkeybob said:


> Try it your Stihl's, I feel my stuff runs better on it. Plus the super unleaded is more consistent quality. The E10 separates out really quickly and if for whatever reason, job type, mechanical issue, holiday or illness etc, and you leave some fuel in your equipment you have no need to worry. For sure for the mower it's better, I still add a bit of fuel stabilizer in my 4 stroke stuff, mower and genny etc, then if it doesn't get used for a bit there's no danger of problems. Husqvarna XP 2 stroke is good also and has stabilizer in as well and smells better than Stihl oil!!


Many thanks, I will give it a go. I volunteer with the Ramblers and we have lots of Stihl brushcutters, hedge trimmers etc. Been a bit of a worry using E10 as a lot of guys forget to empty it after use and it can sit for ages. The Esso fuel sounds ideal. Cheers.


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## Tomos770 (Apr 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Flash point is useful for shipping and storage and NOTHING else.


Meh.... 

Motul 800.....flashpoint 254C.....spoogle in saws muffler

Shell Advance Ultra....flashpoint 70C....no spoogle....


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## Tomos770 (Apr 11, 2022)

LesL said:


> The TC and TCW standard was apparently superseded years ago. I read even the very lowest grade oils meet that spec. In the UK it’s usually the ISO organisation that sets the standards.








ISO Two-Cycle Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org







www.oilspecifications.org










JASO Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org







www.oilspecifications.org










API Two-Cycle Motor Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org







www.oilspecifications.org


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## Tomos770 (Apr 11, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> I am still fuzzy on the tech specs that pertain directly to air cooled engines.
> I read the testing methods for the FB FC anf FD ratings and I didnt see anything stand out that said "good for hot air cooled engines" The reason why I pointed out LUCAS snowmobile oil was that it was "pure synthetic" ( evidenced by very low temp pour point) .... dino oil freezes solid at much higher temps. That is a very good thing for grease and oils if you are in the Artic and it gets 40 below zero. I cant really see
> what the benefit of pure synthetic is for 2 stroke motors where the oil is consumed.
> In 4 stroke motors the synthetic oil lasts twice as long before turning to trash.
> ...


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## preventec47 (Apr 11, 2022)

Here is Quaker State's "specific for AIR COOLED" 2 stroke oil tech specs.
it is FB and FC but not FD. I dont think there is any technical spec that is designated
a hot or air cooled 2 stroke oil product. We are led to believe an FC oil is better than an FB oil and that a FD rated oil is better than a FC oil but only in the areas that they
test for. From what I can tell they do not do any of the testing in HOT air cooled motors so how can these ratings have anything to do with the temp of the engine
in a way we can think any oil is better than another in an air cooled motor ?


https://www.shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en-US/8398dbfe-e86c-439f-b212-db95fa644f15.pdf


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## preventec47 (Apr 11, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> ISO Two-Cycle Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for that info

Here I find what may be the tech spec I was looking for ie for hot air cooled motors

TCCurrentDesigned for various high-performance engines, typically between 200 and 500 cc, such as those on motorcycles and snowmobiles, and chain saws with high fuel-oil ratios - but not outboards. Two-cycle engine oils designed for API Classification TC address ring-sticking, pre-ignition and cylinder scuffing problems.


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## stihltech (Apr 11, 2022)

In 40 years of repairing 2 cycle equipment I have never seen a motor fail from properly mixed (as per manufacturer specs) fuel. Dirty air filter, dirty fuel, water in fuel, DULL CHAIN, or anything that causes a lean condition. or overheat causes failure.
After many many hours a part may fail. All parts have a designated lifetime. If the unit is being properly maintained, it will last. You cannot compensate for bad maintenance with a richer mix.
This does not include a failure due to a defective (manufacturer) part. Nothing will compensate for that.


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## preventec47 (Apr 11, 2022)

FANTASTIC INFO. EVERYONE READ
excerpt : What does ATP-TC and TCW3 mean? Specifications for 2-stroke oils are developed from the design of the engine and its intended use (no surprise). Since this type engine has a wide variety of applications its no surprise that the specifications for the oils might vary also. For marine and PWC application there are 2 widely accepted standards for certifying 2-stroke engine oils. These are, by no means, not the only standards for 2-stroke engine oils. The European (ISO) and the Japanese (JASCO) standards have been developed, but these standards are not widely accepted in the country (yet). The standards most used in this country are the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMATCW3) standard and the American Petroleum Institute (API API-TC) standard. Both of these standards address the oil ability to prevent wear, keep the engine clean and biodegradability. Since these standards were written for different types of 2-stroke engines it stands to reason these standards would be different. Hence, the oils developed from these standards would also be different. The NMMA TCW3 standard was designed by the various manufacturers of outboard motors (Mercury, OMC, Yamaha etc.). These manufacturers so not utilize power valves, limit their max rpms to about 6800 and have excessive cooking capacity. They also must be able to operate at lower rpms for long periods of time without oil fouling the spark plugs. Although it’s true the performance of this type engine has increased in the last several years, the peak engine temperatures are still relatively low. The use of synthetic base oil in TCW# formulations has extended the useful range of these oils; their detergent system (Ashless) is designed for lower operating conditions. This is one of the reasons Bombardier specifically prohibits the use of these oils in their Rotax engines. The API API-TC standard was developed for Air-cooled, high rpm, high output 2-stroke engines operating under severe load conditions. Although this standard is no longer reviewed and updated since 1993 b the API, it still is in effect today. This standard most accurately addresses the condition Rotax and 2-stroke racing motorcycles and snowmobiles operate under. Almost all these oils are formulated with synthetic or synthetic blend base oils and all use a low ash type detergent. If you walk into a store that handles a variety of 2-stroke oils, it is relatively easy to find TCW3 certified oil. The manufacturer proudly displays that certification on each container. API-TC certified oils, on the other hand, are very difficult to find. There are two main reasons for this. First, many small API-TC oil manufacturers can’t or won’t spend the money (about $75,000) for the testing and certification process. Second, most engines requiring API-TC oils are for racing applications (Motocrossers and Crosscountry motorcycles) and don’t offer warranties with their engines anyway. The owner/operators of these machines know what oils work and don’t work. They do not need the API-TC certification on the bottle to help them decide what oil to use. There are many really good API-TC type oils on the market that have never been certified as such. Bombardier/Rotax is the only manufacturer that APITC certified oils. The TCW3 market is about 10 times the size of the API-TC market. Outboard motor manufacturers require the use of TCW3 certified oils to maintain their warranty. With this great volume in oil sales at stake, it’s easy to see why TCW3 manufacturers can afford to certify their oils.


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## Tomos770 (Apr 11, 2022)

LesL said:


> Many thanks, I will give it a go. I volunteer with the Ramblers and we have lots of Stihl brushcutters, hedge trimmers etc. Been a bit of a worry using E10 as a lot of guys forget to empty it after use and it can sit for ages. The Esso fuel sounds ideal. Cheers.


For seldom used O*P*E I am using this.....or when I winterize stuff... 






Aspen Alkylate Petrol | Alkylate Fuel | Aspen Fuel


Aspen Fuel is a leading UK distributor of Aspen Products including Aspen Alkylate Petrol, Aspen Alkylate Fuel and Aspen Oil.




aspenfuel.co.uk


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## bwalker (Apr 11, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Here is Quaker State's "specific for AIR COOLED" 2 stroke oil tech specs.
> it is FB and FC but not FD. I dont think there is any technical spec that is designated
> a hot or air cooled 2 stroke oil product. We are led to believe an FC oil is better than an FB oil and that a FD rated oil is better than a FC oil but only in the areas that they
> test for. From what I can tell they do not do any of the testing in HOT air cooled motors so how can these ratings have anything to do with the temp of the engine
> ...


Actually the motors for Jaso testing are air cooled.


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## bwalker (Apr 11, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Meh....
> 
> Motul 800.....flashpoint 254C.....spoogle in saws muffler
> 
> Shell Advance Ultra....flashpoint 70C....no spoogle....


Spooge is the result of poor tuning and or low load for the most part.
Flash point doesn't measure the temp at which the oil fully combustion. It's only listed on MSDS for storage and shipping purposes.


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## Darrell Coutts (Apr 12, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> You figure pond water, at least up here in the Northeast ranges from 33° up to a max of maybe 75° after a hot summer. That's some damn cold cooling water! A total loss system, too, so any heat picked up by said water is expelled with the water back into the pond or ocean. Water in an automobile's engine stays at 200°+ these days and never dips below that.
> 
> The cylinder head of an air cooled 2-stroke can stay at 400° for the entire time a big load is placed upon it. The benefit of a good quality synthetic isn't just the significant reduction in carbon in the exhaust port and combustion chamber, and top of piston, but the ability to maintain piston ring, and piston to cylinder wall lubrication, even when the clearance has shrunk to .001" or less.
> 
> ...


I entirely agree with you on the amsoil at 100/1 ratio. Have used it for years in Stihl chainsaws. Never a problem. Also have used it in a cheap Chinese 2stroke 230volt generator. These had a habit of getting very ratterly in the bearing department after very little use. After many hours of use I retired it and it was by then getting a little ratterly but still going strong. No blocked mufflers. Would I run any 2 stroke motor on anything other amsoil 100/1. No,absolutely not. And yes it has been tested down to ratios of 300/1 before they started having problems.


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## huskihl (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> I entirely agree with you on the amsoil at 100/1 ratio. Have used it for years in Stihl chainsaws. Never a problem. Also have used it in a cheap Chinese 2stroke 230volt generator. These had a habit of getting very ratterly in the bearing department after very little use. After many hours of use I retired it and it was by then getting a little ratterly but still going strong. No blocked mufflers. Would I run any 2 stroke motor on anything other amsoil 100/1. No,absolutely not. And yes it has been tested down to ratios of 300/1 before they started having problems.


You say it was getting “rattrerly” after very little use, but still claim that you’d never run anything but amsoil at 100:1….

Pretty much supports the claims that it isn’t enough oil. If it had sat on the shelf more it would still be in great shape with that 100:1 still in the gas tank though


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## camel2019 (Apr 12, 2022)

huskihl said:


> You say it was getting “rattrerly” after very little use, but still claim that you’d never run anything but amsoil at 100:1….
> 
> Pretty much supports the claims that it isn’t enough oil. If it had sat on the shelf more it would still be in great shape with that 100:1 still in the gas tank though


Chinese 2 strokes such as in the generator need a heavy ratio.


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## Darrell Coutts (Apr 12, 2022)

huskihl said:


> You say it was getting “rattrerly” after very little use, but still claim that you’d never run anything but amsoil at 100:1….
> 
> Pretty much supports the claims that it isn’t enough oil. If it had sat on the shelf more it would still be in great shape with that 100:1 still in the gas tank though


Read the post more carefully. My generator had had many hours of use before it had even started getting a little ratterly.


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## camel2019 (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> Read the post more carefully. My generator had had many hours of use before it had even started getting a little ratterly.


Is that acceptable do your saws do that too?


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## huskihl (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> Read the post more carefully. My generator had had many hours of use before it had even started getting a little ratterly.


My point was that more oil in the gas may have prevented the bearings from going bad at all, yet you’re sold on your 100:1.
If you had 2 identical generators and ran one at 100:1 and ran the other at 32:1 with exactly the same load, exactly the same fuel, and for the exact same amount of time, and your 100:1 lasted as long or better than the other, I’d be all over believing you. But your statement as it sits just makes you a fan boy and your claim has zero merit


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## Darrell Coutts (Apr 12, 2022)

huskihl said:


> My point was that more oil in the gas may have prevented the bearings from going bad at all, yet you’re sold on your 100:1.
> If you had 2 identical generators and ran one at 100:1 and ran the other at 32:1 with exactly the same load, exactly the same fuel, and for the exact same amount of time, and you’re 100:1 lasted as long or better than the other, I’d be all over believing you. But your statement as it sits just makes you a fan boy and your claim has zero merit


You have no idea what you are talking about. The quality of the oil is what counts and not the amount. There have been studies done which completely discredits your theory.


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## gyp69 (Apr 12, 2022)

I prefer amsoil saber 40/1 in my Johnny walker red, 50/1 in my Starbucks. My stihls I just straight gas and run the heck out of them for about 4 minutes, for some reason they quit running


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## cookies (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. The quality of the oil is what counts and not the amount. There have been studies done which completely discredits your theory.


 run five quarts of walmart brand oil in your car engine for a hour then run 1 quart of amsoil brand for a hour and report back your findings.


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## huskihl (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. The quality of the oil is what counts and not the amount. There have been studies done which completely discredits your theory.


Sure thing


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## camel2019 (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. The quality of the oil is what counts and not the amount. There have been studies done which completely discredits your theory.


Yeah “test” done by the “manufacturer” of the oil don’t think I’d trust it ever especially not in my vintage saws maybe one of them bicycle engine kits that the cylinders are like $15 for.


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## bwalker (Apr 12, 2022)

Darrell Coutts said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. The quality of the oil is what counts and not the amount. There have been studies done which completely discredits your theory.


Well if that's the case why don't we run cars with 1 quart sumps? While quality is important, quantity is as well too.
As far as I am concerned amsoil is a snake oil company at heart and they pray on ignorant people.


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## gyp69 (Apr 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Well if that's the case why don't we run cars with 1 quart sumps? While quality is important, quantity is as well too.
> As far as I am concerned amsoil is a snake oil company at heart and the pray on ignorant people.


What oil do you use? I’m just curious not trying to argue in the least. Thanks


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## bwalker (Apr 12, 2022)

gyp69 said:


> What oil do you use? I’m just curious not trying to argue in the least. Thanks


I'm burning up my remaining stock of bike oils as i sold all my bikes last year. Honda HP2 and Yam 2R. When that's used up I will probably just use Whatever FD oil is available close to my house. Husky or Echo.


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## bwalker (Apr 13, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Yeah “test” done by the “manufacturer” of the oil don’t think I’d trust it ever especially not in my vintage saws maybe one of them bicycle engine kits that the cylinders are like $15 for.


Amsoil is basicly a packaging company. They don't refine a single drop of oil and by everything from third parties.


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## gyp69 (Apr 13, 2022)

Every time I do a deep dive into mix oils I come away more confused than enlightened. Base stocks, additives, synthetic, semisynthetic, ester based etc. In reality besides having a base of ester or synthetic otherwise so called top tier oils are probably all similar in their quality. From a layman’s standpoint when I mix Motul or amsoil I put the ratio I want in a ratio container and pour it in the gas jug & have to pour gas back into the ratio container several times to get all the oil. Very thick but finally mixes well. Does this provide better lubricity for the piston, jug bearings it would seem so as opposed to Stihl ultra or husky which seems very thin when pouring into gas. Is this right? I don’t know. Back when I cut six days a week for Columbia Helicopters I ran ported huskys (385 390’s) hard then switched back to Stihl (660) I ran husky oil in huskys I ran Stihl oil in the 660’s. Never had a failure back then with those mix oils & I haven’t had a failure with the Motul or amsoil etc. it’s only when I got an iPad about 2013 did I even think about mix oils. Back then the guys I worked with all stayed in campgrounds & in the evening we all would grind chain and talk about the strip we were cutting or huntin , fishing, football women etc. we all ran hopped up saws and I don’t remember ever talking about mix oils. I’m dazed and confused about what is best! Sorry for rambling.


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## bwalker (Apr 13, 2022)

gyp69 said:


> Every time I do a deep dive into mix oils I come away more confused than enlightened. Base stocks, additives, synthetic, semisynthetic, ester based etc. In reality besides having a base of ester or synthetic otherwise so called top tier oils are probably all similar in their quality. From a layman’s standpoint when I mix Motul or amsoil I put the ratio I want in a ratio container and pour it in the gas jug & have to pour gas back into the ratio container several times to get all the oil. Very thick but finally mixes well. Does this provide better lubricity for the piston, jug bearings it would seem so as opposed to Stihl ultra or husky which seems very thin when pouring into gas. Is this right? I don’t know. Back when I cut six days a week for Columbia Helicopters I ran ported huskys (385 390’s) hard then switched back to Stihl (660) I ran husky oil in huskys I ran Stihl oil in the 660’s. Never had a failure back then with those mix oils & I haven’t had a failure with the Motul or amsoil etc. it’s only when I got an iPad about 2013 did I even think about mix oils. Back then the guys I worked with all stayed in campgrounds & in the evening we all would grind chain and talk about the strip we were cutting or huntin , fishing, football women etc. we all ran hopped up saws and I don’t remember ever talking about mix oils. I’m dazed and confused about what is best! Sorry for rambling.


It was found that PIB added to mix oils provided for the same or better film strength while improving cleanliness over thick ester based oils. Oils with PIB are blended with a medium weight base oil and some diluent to help with mixing in cold temps. Most all FD certified oils are formulated this way.
Oddly enough I recently learned that Para-Tac used in bar oil is a thick PIB.


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## camel2019 (Apr 13, 2022)

After I bought my first 2 stroke equipment being a weed eater string trimmer and a grey market Chinese chainsaw(not a clone) I mixed my first can of fuel at 40 to 1 but the can I mixed it in had used motor oil in it at one point and it wasn’t cleaned out. to ad to the mix I’d also pour my bar oil through a funnel then pour my gas through the same funnel emptying the bar oil back into the jug and the gas back into the can. Idk what that mix actually was but I ran it and I just pulled the muffler on that Chinese chainsaw yesterday and guess what it’s fine inside.


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## Ted Jenkins (Apr 13, 2022)

gyp69 said:


> Every time I do a deep dive into mix oils I come away more confused than enlightened. Base stocks, additives, synthetic, semisynthetic, ester based etc. In reality besides having a base of ester or synthetic otherwise so called top tier oils are probably all similar in their quality. From a layman’s standpoint when I mix Motul or amsoil I put the ratio I want in a ratio container and pour it in the gas jug & have to pour gas back into the ratio container several times to get all the oil. Very thick but finally mixes well. Does this provide better lubricity for the piston, jug bearings it would seem so as opposed to Stihl ultra or husky which seems very thin when pouring into gas. Is this right? I don’t know. Back when I cut six days a week for Columbia Helicopters I ran ported huskys (385 390’s) hard then switched back to Stihl (660) I ran husky oil in huskys I ran Stihl oil in the 660’s. Never had a failure back then with those mix oils & I haven’t had a failure with the Motul or amsoil etc. it’s only when I got an iPad about 2013 did I even think about mix oils. Back then the guys I worked with all stayed in campgrounds & in the evening we all would grind chain and talk about the strip we were cutting or huntin , fishing, football women etc. we all ran hopped up saws and I don’t remember ever talking about mix oils. I’m dazed and confused about what is best! Sorry for rambling.


You have made clear many of the issues that face those that run a chain saw more than a occasional once a month use. The only oil related issue that I have ever faced in sixty years have been with race motors. In many cases a race motor will deliver ten times the output of a chainsaw. Scouring of the piston and cylinder is quite common. Usually not severe but none the less it does happen. With popular chain saw mixes the extreme conditions will NEVER happen even on a very hot or cold day. Some oils burn with the gasoline some do not burn much so is this good or bad. With most things there are pros and cons. Oils that burn well can leave more carbon than others if the mixture is extreme. Oils that do not burn well can leave excess deposit too causing other problems. Most oils will deliver a premium performance for decades as long as extreme conditions do not occur. For many the ONLY method to determine the tuning set up is to read the plug to insure that extreme conditions are not occurring. I have heard over and over about the destruction of a saw motor blaming every thing on oil and alcohol laced gasoline. When conditions change the OP needs to double check their set up or when some thing of interest is noticed. For most they just continue on until their motor stops. Thanks


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## jakethesnake (Apr 13, 2022)

I run 32:1. 30:1 is dam close. 

it isn’t gonna hurt a dam thing. Y’all crazy sometimes. Run what you want tune accordingly 


that said if I have a very good oil I might hop up to 40-1. Might even try red armor at 50-1.
Standard 2 stroke oil that I can pick up at ace hardware. 
32:1. I’m not going to change doing things the way I like I think a tick of extra oil is better 

and some of you guys are still crazy. Lol


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## gyp69 (Apr 14, 2022)

haha, I could give you a long list of crazy things I have done. But as far as mix oil people are sure opinionated, I seldom think about it until I stumble upon one of these threads. I can’t resist giving my 2 cents which is about what my opinion is worth. That being said a little more oil certainly won’t hurt a thing but if you mix an ester base oil like motul800 at 32-1 you most likely will get your piston washed and a very oily muffler can even if your tune is spot on. In my opinion which like I said is worth about 2 pennies. I might add I’m talking working class limited coil saws like the Stihl 461. Not hotsaws or race saws.


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## Abbeville TSI (Apr 14, 2022)

Okay, now I am no pro logger but for some background I have used chainsaws since the XL12 was blue and repaired and serviced pro saws from Pioneers to Huskies to Stihls. 
I own a number of 2 stroke powered equipment, and use the same can of fuel mix for all of them. None are modified beyond a mild muffler mod or cat removal. No ports, no gasket deletes, no timing advance. My use for the saws is TSI and downed tree conversion to firewood on my property. I have Echo and Stihl equipment. I am 73 years old, and not in a hurry, so I don't push myself or my tools hard.
Now for my question, "Do I need more than Echo Red Armor mixing oil at 2% (50-1) to protect my equipment".


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## gyp69 (Apr 14, 2022)

Red Armor at 50-1 will be just fine for you Sir. My hats off to you for still running outdoor power equipment on your place,you are the same age as my dad and he like you still mows etc.


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## Ted Jenkins (Apr 14, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I run 32:1. 30:1 is dam close.
> 
> it isn’t gonna hurt a dam thing. Y’all crazy sometimes. Run what you want tune accordingly
> 
> ...


I take great offence at this crazy notion that some are crazy. No sane person would have a multitude of saws and enjoy every single one. Or the guy who has two saws but wants seven more. What about climbing a tree to get it down safely then offered two hundred bucks for his effort. Thanks


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## jakethesnake (Apr 14, 2022)

Abbeville TSI said:


> Okay, now I am no pro logger but for some background I have used chainsaws since the XL12 was blue and repaired and serviced pro saws from Pioneers to Huskies to Stihls.
> I own a number of 2 stroke powered equipment, and use the same can of fuel mix for all of them. None are modified beyond a mild muffler mod or cat removal. No ports, no gasket deletes, no timing advance. My use for the saws is TSI and downed tree conversion to firewood on my property. I have Echo and Stihl equipment. I am 73 years old, and not in a hurry, so I don't push myself or my tools hard.
> Now for my question, "Do I need more than Echo Red Armor mixing oil at 2% (50-1) to protect my equipment".


Keep at it sir. Red armor is one of the best oils out there. It’s one of the few I’d run at 50:1. I’m switching to it once I burn through the rest of what I’ve bought


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## bwalker (Apr 14, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Keep at it sir. Red armor is one of the best oils out there. It’s one of the few I’d run at 50:1. I’m switching to it once I burn through the rest of what I’ve bought


Red Armour has some weird ability to leave alot of residual oil at 50:1. I wouldn't worry at all about using it at that ratio.


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## jakethesnake (Apr 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Red Armour has some weird ability to leave alot of residual oil at 50:1. I wouldn't worry at all about using it at that ratio.


I’ve gotta agree with you on that one


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## Abbeville TSI (Apr 14, 2022)

Thanks, guys


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## camel2019 (Apr 14, 2022)

Want to start a argument on here just start an oil thread


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## ihookem (Apr 14, 2022)

Now after 7 pages of arguing about oil , what is the best oil and what is the best ratio?. So far, Stihl sucks, Amsoil sucks, cheap oil sucks, and now Res Armour has a weird ability to leave a lot of residue. There is a lot of oil brands out there. Seems hardly any make their own. I'm just going to stick with Stihl 50/1and Amsoil 64 /1 , 2 oz. per gallon just to keep it simple. I have used the cheapest stuff I could find in my outboards at 50/1. i ran Merc @ 100/1 , for quite some time. I ran Amsoil Sabre in my weekwacker and chainsaws, Amsoil @50/1 ,64/1 and 100/1 and 128/1. I have ran Amsoil HD diesel 5w30 for 46,000 miles and 39,000 miles with oil tests and filter changes @15,000 mi. Te truck has 293,000 and runs perfect. I have ran cars for 10,000 mi. on regular oil for years and I have never had oil ruin an engine. Now days I just run Shell Rotella T-6 and change about every 15,000. I think we way over think our oil, way more than women pick their clothes . So, what really is the "BEST" 2 stroke oil? All seems plenty good enough to me.


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## bwalker (Apr 14, 2022)

Red Armour leaves alotnof residual oil, not residue.
And Yes Stihl oil is pure garbage.


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## camel2019 (Apr 15, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Red Armour leaves alotnof residual oil, not residue.
> And Yes Stihl oil is pure garbage.


If I wanted to pay extra for castrol then I’d buy the Stihl oil. Still haven’t figured out what castrol oil it is may be their GO line for motorcycles.


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## bwalker (Apr 15, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> If I wanted to pay extra for castrol then I’d buy the Stihl oil. Still haven’t figured out what castrol oil it is may be their GO line for motorcycles.


Castrol only makes the Stihl for the Canadian market. It's made by someone else in the US.


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## MikeRock (Apr 15, 2022)

Exactly WHY is Stihl oil garbage? I have a lot of it here, unopened. Some is ten years old, some wife bought yesterday.
God bless


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## camel2019 (Apr 15, 2022)

MikeRock said:


> Exactly WHY is Stihl oil garbage? I have a lot of it here, unopened. Some is ten years old, some wife bought yesterday.
> God bless


Well even at 50 to 1 it spooges out the muffler of my kombi tool somehow making it past the cat and screen.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2022)

Not all Stihl oil is garbage . Ultra is garbage although it's niche was 4mix engine usage . Even there it leaves as lot to be desired . Ultra HP is a overpriced premium synthetic with average performance . Stihl Premium a old production line of Group III oil is above average performance oil . Have used it for years in a MS-260 , ms-360 & ms-660 models , back in The day no problems . There are numerous better oils available Motul , Amsoil , Red Armor , Echo & even Shell-T . I now run either Amsoil or Shell in all 2 stroke applications .The most important fact is to tune your saw to the mix ratio you choose for your saws use application . The operating characteristics of a felling & bucking saw , varies from that of limbing or milling saw . I pretty well run all homeowner 2T hand held units @ 50:1 . My pro grade or commercial saws run 44:1 & my milling & hot saw runs 32:1 all with good quality non ethanol fuel .


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## bwalker (Apr 15, 2022)

Broken said:


> Not all Stihl oil is garbage . Ultra is garbage although it's niche was 4mix engine usage . Even there it leaves as lot to be desired . Ultra HP is a overpriced premium synthetic with average performance . Stihl Premium a old production line of Group III oil is above average performance oil . Have used it for years in a MS-260 , ms-360 & ms-660 models , back in The day no problems . There are numerous better oils available Motul , Amsoil , Red Armor , Echo & even Shell-T . I now run either Amsoil or Shell in all 2 stroke applications .The most important fact is to tune your saw to the mix ratio you choose for your saws use application . The operating characteristics of a felling & bucking saw , varies from that of limbing or milling saw . I pretty well run all homeowner 2T hand held units @ 50:1 . My pro grade or commercial saws run 44:1 & my milling & hot saw runs 32:1 all with good quality non ethanol fuel .


What your saying might pertain to Stihl oil sold in Canada that's made by Castrol. It doesn't pertain to the stuff sold in the US. The US sold oil has always been a lesser product than the other OEM oils.


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## bwalker (Apr 15, 2022)

MikeRock said:


> Exactly WHY is Stihl oil garbage? I have a lot of it here, unopened. Some is ten years old, some wife bought yesterday.
> God bless


If you like paying a premium price for the poorest performing OEM oil then by all means have at it.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What your saying might pertain to Stihl oil sold in Canada that's made by Castrol. It doesn't pertain to the stuff sold in the US. The US sold oil has always been a lesser product than the other OEM oils.


Hey Ben hows it going brother ! You are probably correct . The Stihl Premium bottles i have are 6 ounce bottles marked Castrol Canada . I recieved them from my son who works for the City . They use it in their commercial saws , trimmers & blowers. Its fine , my hunting buddy used the hp in his 460 for the last few yrs , no issues . I however have him converted to Saber after last season . I have never bought oem (manufacturers) oil ever . It is marginal oil at best with a dealer mark up , no thanks ! Who makes Stihls oil in US now ?


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## bwalker (Apr 15, 2022)

Broken said:


> Hey Ben hows it going brother ! You are probably correct . The Stihl Premium bottles i have are 6 ounce bottles marked Castrol Canada . I recieved them from my son who works for the City . They use it in their commercial saws , trimmers & blowers. Its fine , my hunting buddy used the hp in his 460 for the last few yrs , no issues . I however have him converted to Saber after last season . I have never used oem manufacturers oil ever . It is marginal oil at best with a dealer mark up , no thanks ! Who makes Stihls oil in the US now ?


Omni makes/packages Stihls oil in the US.
Some of the OEM oils are pretty good. Echo Red Armor and Husky's FD rated product are both very good.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Omni makes/packages Stihls oil in the US.
> Some of the OEM oils are pretty good. Echo Red Armor and Husky's FD rated product are both very good.


I agree Husky and Echo do produce a quality oil , although you pay for it lol. Thanks for the origin of Stihl south of the border !


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## Campbellcontractlogging (Apr 15, 2022)

I’m a logger I cut 40 to 60 trees a day 6 days a week I’ve run 461 462’s and mostly 661 hard hot or cold all year round my back up saws now are echo 7310P my current big saw is a 592XP husq I’ve always run non synthetic stihl oil 50:1 no ethanol gas premium I’ve blown a 462 and a 661C the 462 lasted 1.5 years the 661 3 months 1 day I’ve had 2 other 661 one lasted 3 years and sold it the other is still running 5 years strong everything but the head piston and lower has been replaced never had an issue out of an echo years hard use haven’t had any issues with the husq but it’s young time will tell change the fuel filter every 2 weeks my point is some saws are lemons most professional saws just last. Some don’t


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## Piotr Pakuła (Apr 16, 2022)

there are users who extend this time of replacing the fuel filter to 20 years


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## toppers (Apr 16, 2022)

Echo at 50:1 across 3 saws and a Stihl Kombi system, it seems like a perfect oil why screw with the ratios so much, do you all like wasting oil? It’s the only oil to not only clean things up but leaves a film of oil on everything internal. Stihl Ultra did not do this for me and even made things look worse. Pretty cool knowing a saw can sits there for a year, you can turn it by hand and still see oil everywhere inside. No other oil does this in my experience so far.


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## jakethesnake (Apr 16, 2022)

Laytonlogging said:


> I’m a logger I cut 40 to 60 trees a day 6 days a week I’ve run 461 462’s and mostly 661 hard hot or cold all year round my back up saws now are echo 7310P my current big saw is a 592XP husq I’ve always run non synthetic stihl oil 50:1 no ethanol gas premium I’ve blown a 462 and a 661C the 462 lasted 1.5 years the 661 3 months 1 day I’ve had 2 other 661 one lasted 3 years and sold it the other is still running 5 years strong everything but the head piston and lower has been replaced never had an issue out of an echo years hard use haven’t had any issues with the husq but it’s young time will tell change the fuel filter every 2 weeks my point is some saws are lemons most professional saws just last. Some don’t


Just curious. What often goes when your saws give up? 
It’s a different world running a saw /tool for production vs me that cuts an acre or 2 every 3 years


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## Iffykid (Apr 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If you like paying a premium price for the poorest performing OEM oil then by all means have at it.


I would think performance is quite good it has sat unopened for 10yrs and thus never harmed a saw.


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## Iffykid (Apr 16, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> there are users who extend this time of replacing the fuel filter to 20 years


Seems like a waste of perfectly good usable filter, My 10mm 044s still going with original filters actually all my saws still have the original fuel filters.


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## camel2019 (Apr 16, 2022)

toppers said:


> Echo at 50:1 across 3 saws and a Stihl Kombi system, it seems like a perfect oil why screw with the ratios so much, do you all like wasting oil? It’s the only oil to not only clean things up but leaves a film of oil on everything internal. Stihl Ultra did not do this for me and even made things look worse. Pretty cool knowing a saw can sits there for a year, you can turn it by hand and still see oil everywhere inside. No other oil does this in my experience so far.


My Chinese saw that I haven’t run in probably 3 years has a film of oil in it and I ran all manner of oil in that thing over the years mainly cheap stuff.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 16, 2022)

Iffykid said:


> Seems like a waste of perfectly good usable filter, My 10mm 044s still going with original filters actually all my saws still have the original fuel filters.


Commercial fellers go through a lot of gas . Conditions are rather dirty . I myself change or clean fuel filters probably every few years . To ensure and maintain proper tune , both air filter & fuel filter must be in good condition .


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## Piotr Pakuła (Apr 16, 2022)

impurities float in the tank, it's not a motor pump to suck and clog the fuel filter


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## North by Northwest (Apr 16, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> impurities float in the tank, it's not a motor pump to suck and clog the fuel filter


Density varies , some impurities float others settle . Either way eventually they reach the filter !


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## gyp69 (Apr 16, 2022)

That must be some dirty rotten awful gas down there, maybe the Clintons are involved.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 16, 2022)

LesL said:


> Interesting. I’m in Essex. There are a few places still selling E5. I use E10 as it’s all my local garage sells. I’ve not seen Esso Supreme…will keep a lookout. I’m not so worried for my new Stihl gear but E10 probably isn’t doing my old Westwood/Briggs and Stratton sit on mower much good.


Only Esso I have ever used was Esso 101 a 4 cycle Sae.60 oil used extensively in shovelhead harleys . A premium mineral oil based product . A large number of aircraft engines were also spec'd for it also back in the day , Cessina was one manufacturer . Actually was reasonably priced ! lol.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 16, 2022)

Canyon Angler said:


> I have a 3-cylinder Yamaha 40 with oil injection, too, but I mix at least a little oil with the gas (like 100-to-1) so that at least there's SOME oil in the fuel if the oil injection setup goes belly-up.
> 
> I've heard of people having trouble with the oil injection system just scrapping it and mixing oil into the fuel at 50-to-1 like in the olden days. Works fine, from what I hear. (But I don't think it will work with Evinrude E-TECs.)


I have always ran 100:1 in my fuel on every oil injected snowmobile engine for the exact same reason . Oil injection has came a long way , with very few failures , however a little proactive xtra oil never hurts .


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## North by Northwest (Apr 16, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> $65 for a gallon of oil is just outrageous I’m happy with my motomaster that meets FC standards it’s now $36 for 5 litres and I will only buy it when it’s on sale.


Head across to Detroit & buy some Super-Tech $15 for a US gallon . lol.


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## gyp69 (Apr 16, 2022)

Hey man I watched a family Guy scene where a Canadian gave his snow machine to Brian and Stewie they were having trouble communicating with the guy they were trying to get AAA to fix there car and he had just been to AA eh, it was funny as heck! He said they needed a hose eh, Stewie said yes Jose Roberto. Funny clip, he ended up giving them his tk, leg etc he said that’s what Candadian hospitality is all about eh.


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## camel2019 (Apr 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Head across to Detroit & buy some Super-Tech $15 for a US gallon . lol.


I can get that for $23 a gallon on this side with the exchange rate don’t make sense.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 16, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> I can get that for $23 a gallon on this side with the exchange rate don’t make sense.


No that's $15 cdn on sale . Although even at $23 its better than what your paying $36 for . Hell lots of FD certified oils out there a lot cheaper than your stated $65 .


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## camel2019 (Apr 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> No that's $15 cdn on sale . Although even at $23 its better than what your paying $36 for . Hell lots of FD certified oils out there a lot cheaper than your stated $65 .


I quoted someone who linked Motul 800 at $65 a gallon. I buy what I can where I can Canadian tire has their stuff on sale for a decent price few times a year.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 17, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> I quoted someone who linked Motul 800 at $65 a gallon. I buy what I can where I can Canadian tire has their stuff on sale for a decent price few times a year.


Yeah , Motul & Maxima are quality oil , just way to expensive . I believe C/T still has Shell 2T if so , you can't get much better than it for your saw usage . Anyhow good luck bro !


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## Iffykid (Apr 17, 2022)

Broken said:


> Commercial fellers go through a lot of gas . Conditions are rather dirty . I myself change or clean fuel filters probably every few years . To ensure and maintain proper tune , both air filter & fuel filter must be in good condition .


Even back in the day when making a living with a saw the most I did was once a month rinse tank with raw gas and dump, Tapped out the air filter daily and blew clean with air couple times per week.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 17, 2022)

Iffykid said:


> Even back in the day when making a living with a saw the most I did was once a month rinse tank with raw gas and dump, Tapped out the air filter daily and blew clean with air couple times per week.


Thats more than the recreational saw user does . Very proactive of you . I also relied on firewood cutting growing up on a 320 acre farm in Northern Ontario. I learnt at a relatively young age the benefits of maintaining & operating equipment efficiently . That included tractors , backhoe & bulldozer & dump truck . We normally burnt 10-12 cords of hardwood annually along with a few cords of spring & fall cedar & pine slabwood or tailings from a neighbours saw mill. I believe were at about the same age decade wise , where the norm was to repair & reuse rather than simply replace . I had numerous friends that were commercial cutters , they went through 5 times the fuel & oil that we did & serviced their equipment religiously , much more than i did because downtime meant lost $$ not just inconvenience . I hope you still enjoy your time out cutting ...i still do , just at a more leisurely pace !


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## sawfarmer (Apr 17, 2022)

Ju


EchoRomeoCharlie said:


> Run whatever oil ratio you want...why do we need a thread on it though?


Just to see what other fellers are using ?


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## North by Northwest (Apr 17, 2022)

sawfarmer said:


> Ju
> 
> Just to see what other fellers are using ?


Yeah !


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Apr 17, 2022)

sawfarmer said:


> Ju
> 
> Just to see what other fellers are using ?


Literally everything. Plus, there are about 87 million oil threads ALREADY hashing this out on this and every other power equipment forum out there....a quick google search would show you 4 years worth of reading on the subject.


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## Chevboy0167 (Apr 18, 2022)

Guess we can't stop a good thing going..... (end of sarcasm)....


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## ihookem (Apr 18, 2022)

Merc TCW3 in my outboards @ 50/1 , I can find it literally anywhere . Amsoil Saber 64/1 in my air cooled 2 strokes. Shell Rotella in my diesel and change it when the "change oil light comes on. My cars get changed when the change oi light comes on with the cheapest stuff on sale and likely just a brand called Resolute from Fleet Farm. That's my final answer and I am never going to read another oil thread again. Honest.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Apr 18, 2022)

Shell is the best  I don't know which one ;-)


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## Iffykid (Apr 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> Thats more than the recreational saw user does . Very proactive of you . I also relied on firewood cutting growing up on a 320 acre farm in Northern Ontario. I learnt at a relatively young age the benefits of maintaining & operating equipment efficiently . That included tractors , backhoe & bulldozer & dump truck . We normally burnt 10-12 cords of hardwood annually along with a few cords of spring & fall cedar & pine slabwood or tailings from a neighbours saw mill. I believe were at about the same age decade wise , where the norm was to repair & reuse rather than simply replace . I had numerous friends that were commercial cutters , they went through 5 times the fuel & oil that we did & serviced their equipment religiously , much more than i did because downtime meant lost $$ not just inconvenience . I hope you still enjoy your time out cutting ...i still do , just at a more leisurely pace !


Sounds familiar to my upbringing in Northern Wisconsin following my older brother into the woods during summer break starting around 15-16 and then my boys doing the same at a similar age, Now out of commercial logging as my boys turned toward commercial tree removal and now at 62 I spend my free time getting in their way on job sites.


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## Tomos770 (Apr 18, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> Shell is the best  I don't know which one ;-)


Advance ultra 2t for my chainsaws and trimmer
Rimula R6 10w40 for my 3.0TD J9 Landcruiser

AV-L Vw504/507 5w30 for my 1.4 D4d Yaris....


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## Campbellcontractlogging (Apr 18, 2022)

I had a crank sheer and split on my 661C stihl said they had never seen one do that and told me I should be able to buy a new saw every 3 months because I was a logger and it was 3 months and 1 day after I bought it needless to say I started buying echoes and huskies the 462 I think got to hot and the rings must have expanded and the rod failed ruined everything inside but it lasted like 3 years was one of the first to buy one in the Midwest. 


jakethesnake said:


> Just curious. What often goes when your saws give up?
> It’s a different world running a saw /tool for production vs me that cuts an acre or 2 every 3 years


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## bwalker (Apr 19, 2022)

For the 100:1 crew.








2-Stroke Dirt Bike Oil Mix Ratio 101


Looks like it's time for a little 2 stroke oil mix ratio (Pre-mix) 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be




motocrosshideout.com


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## Iffykid (Apr 19, 2022)

bwalker said:


> For the 100:1 crew.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wonder how many people are running liquid cooled 250cc chainsaws?


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## bwalker (Apr 19, 2022)

Iffykid said:


> Wonder how many people are running liquid cooled 250cc chainsaws?


What specifically would make you think the results would be different with a chainsaw?


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## Iffykid (Apr 19, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What specifically would make you think the results would be different with a chainsaw?


air cooled vs water cooled for starters.


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## Wow (Apr 20, 2022)

Iffykid said:


> Wonder how many people are running liquid cooled 250cc chainsaws?


Think maybe ill remove my old lawnmower engine and build me ah 23 hp direct drive Kohler engine chainsaw. Straight gas all the time. Hire a weight lifter to run it. Ha. Ha. Solved the Mixing problem. Ha. Ha. After reading and reading and, im thinking this makes about as much sense as a LOT OF what I've read so far. Ha. Ha. Hey wait Propane. Those little one pound bottles. Now THAT'S an idea.


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## bwalker (Apr 20, 2022)

Iffykid said:


> air cooled vs water cooled for starters.


Bmep is much higher for a 250cc bike vs a saw.


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## link (Apr 20, 2022)

2,5% syntetic oil will give the engine the lubrication it needs and then some, what more could you ask for?


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## Wow (Apr 20, 2022)

On a more serious note.
Several years ago I did a test of oils.
With a propane torch and a clean piece of sheet metal out of the wind.

Half a teaspoon of various types of oil were placed on the clean metal then torch was applied. 
The 2/cycle burned totally up quickly. Some left a TINY bit or residue almost not visible. With a clean paper towel I was able to collect the residue. Super Tech burned cleanly leaving almost nothing. Regular engine oil 30 wt burned BUT COOKED a while. Heat had to be applied longer and burn time was longer. I will tell you that 30 wt. Auto engine oil should work BUT my guess is, It would build up quickly in the engine. My guess is it will HOLD heat longer due to longer burn times and excessive oily residue. Only in a serious pinch would I use that in my 2 c engine. Frankly, I didn't see enough different between the Walmart super Tech and a more expensive Synthetic. Being mostly retired for MY PERSONAL use I'm fine with Walmart Super Tech. NOW Wally world has a UNIVERSAL 2 cycle oil. In not sure about it. They NOW SAY their Marine 2/c oil is good for Chainsaws. It's designed to prevent moisture and rust. Could it simply be something like Seafoam added to the Universal to qualify the oil for Marine then does that mean it could be UNIVERSAL for ALL types of 2/C engines?
My GUESS IS heat builds up WHEN the oil requires MORE heat to burn off AND residual hot oil remains in the engine ADDING more hot oil with each firing cycle. My knowledge on this subject is limited so all comments spoken kindly are appreciated.


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## Trapperwv1 (Apr 21, 2022)

Wow said:


> Think maybe ill remove my old lawnmower engine and build me ah 23 hp direct drive Kohler engine chainsaw. Straight gas all the time. Hire a weight lifter to run it. Ha. Ha. Solved the Mixing problem. Ha. Ha. After reading and reading and, im thinking this makes about as much sense as a LOT OF what I've read so far. Ha. Ha. Hey wait Propane. Those little one pound bottles. Now THAT'S an idea.


You know you may be on to something except the weight lifter part , build it up with a 36 inch bar and a ripping chain , put it on a stationary mount and make a carriage for logs and you have a right powerful mill


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## DONLAWSON84 (Apr 21, 2022)

I have been running scAMSOIL in my 2 strokes for years and always had good luck, it calls to mix 75:1 which sounds crazy but never had an issue up until my 029 started be hard to keep running (this saw has been ran hard, even before i got it). Compression was a little over 100 so i decided for a rebuild, disassembly showed a very clean motor along with the muffler and screen. I don't run my equipment enough for oil testing but my cheap ass is happy with the expensive brand.


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## camel2019 (Apr 21, 2022)

Trapperwv1 said:


> You know you may be on to something except the weight lifter part , build it up with a 36 inch bar and a ripping chain , put it on a stationary mount and make a carriage for logs and you have a right powerful mill


I’m going to end up doing something like that except the carriage for the bar/chain will roll on rails like a bandsaw mill. I have a 20hp engine figure I can run around a 50 inch bar with that.


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## Xmaniac (Oct 15, 2022)

I run 40/1 ratio with 92 octane. Add a couple ounces of sea foam fuel additive. Unless you rinse out the pre measured bottles of mix with fuel and get every last drop in the container, your not getting a true 50/1 ratio... for this reason I go with 40/1 ratio. Never had a problem with the 8 saws I had ported and decked after 9 year's. They still all have great compression and never fouled a plug.


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## Wow (Oct 15, 2022)

Abbeville TSI said:


> Okay, now I am no pro logger but for some background I have used chainsaws since the XL12 was blue and repaired and serviced pro saws from Pioneers to Huskies to Stihls.
> I own a number of 2 stroke powered equipment, and use the same can of fuel mix for all of them. None are modified beyond a mild muffler mod or cat removal. No ports, no gasket deletes, no timing advance. My use for the saws is TSI and downed tree conversion to firewood on my property. I have Echo and Stihl equipment. I am 73 years old, and not in a hurry, so I don't push myself or my tools hard.
> Now for my question, "Do I need more than Echo Red Armor mixing oil at 2% (50-1) to protect my equipment".


Good that you are still good strong. I'm 75 and no longer work for people or climb but this little farm and my wood heater keeps me busy. I just finished cutting trails for the ATVs. I keep two so a friend can ride too. Sometimes I right at night as well. Hard work will keep you healthier longer. I'm running all Echo saws (lighter saws for the power ratio) and only 1 sthil. The cs590, 490,352 and a Sthil 029 ( several, mods). Pure Hi octane mixed 40:1 in every 2 stroke. Sometimes 1 ounce of seafoam. I try to start and run everything about every couple of months. Even generators. Just a 5-10 minute run if nothing else. When a carb sounds like it's trying to clog or sags then I add seafoam and keep her running a while longer. Recently an old 4 stroke didn't sound good. I added seafoam and a tad (not much) transmission fluid. Thirty minutes later it was purring. Daily I ran it until all the fuel as gone. Now this is a 4 stroke here not a 2 stroke. The motor runs very smooth and seems to get better gas mileage. Back in the day it was not uncommon to add a tiny bit of transmission oil to gas in a 4 stroke once in a while. I've put old chainsaw fuel ( old not bad) in my Riding mower and it seems to actually be happy with it. I keep 3 or 4 riding mower engines running happily and several generators and various 2 cycle engines. Good luck with your projects. PS. When I work in the woods after dark (not felling but once in a while finishing bucking something) I have a small inverter that plugs into my Lawn tractor. I run lights right off my 12 volt system. These new 120 volt LEDs are bright and don't use a lot of AMPS. See Photo. My motto is, "Make work fun". That John Deere has 22 X 11 -8 inch knobby tires on back and pulls a small trailer all over the farm. Bless you


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## Wow (Oct 15, 2022)

gyp69 said:


> Hey man I watched a family Guy scene where a Canadian gave his snow machine to Brian and Stewie they were having trouble communicating with the guy they were trying to get AAA to fix there car and he had just been to AA eh, it was funny as heck! He said they needed a hose eh, Stewie said yes Jose Roberto. Funny clip, he ended up giving them his tk, leg etc he said that’s what Candadian hospitality is all about eh.


Funny thing. I'm 75 and LOVE watching Family Guy and, wait for it, da da, Wrestling. Back in the day I was a wild man. I was able to do a few finger tip push ups a little over a year ago. Some of these young guys can do some things in the ring. Tossing a 200 pound guy like a sack of flour. A couple of my daughters were in a dojo and they were wild lil gals. I've seen my youngest chest kick (a flying mare kick) a nieghborhood boy down. The lady wrestlers remind me of my daughters who are now adults with kids. Mentally, I'm never going to grow old. My Totem is a Cougar. I am tame but I'll never be domesticated. Ha. Ha. For 7 years I tried a normal job. I hated it because my home is in the woods. The sounds, the smells, the plants, and animals, the untamed waters, the wind and rain, all of that is heaven. Sitting on a stump listening to sleet falling on a cover of light snow and watching it get dark makes me feel one with God. Okay. I'm sorry. Kinda got off topic. Blessings.


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## Iffykid (Oct 15, 2022)

Xmaniac said:


> I run 40/1 ratio with 92 octane. Add a couple ounces of sea foam fuel additive. Unless you rinse out the pre measured bottles of mix with fuel and get every last drop in the container, your not getting a true 50/1 ratio... for this reason I go with 40/1 ratio. Never had a problem with the 8 saws I had ported and decked after 9 year's. They still all have great compression and never fouled a plug.


Do you rinse out the pre measured bottles to get every last drop? otherwise your not getting a true 40:1 ratio.


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## lone wolf (Oct 15, 2022)

EchoRomeoCharlie said:


> Run whatever oil ratio you want...why do we need a thread on it though?


For new people that don't know what to do .


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## North by Northwest (Oct 15, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Bmep is much higher for a 250cc bike vs a saw.


125 cc moto & 125 Mac would be close in principle . Bmep is just a theoretic indication of engine efficiency & not an actual indication of internal engine cylinder head pressure waves or pulses as it relates to detonation prevention !


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## bwalker (Oct 15, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> 125 cc moto & 125 Mac would be close in principle . Bmep is just a theoretic indication of engine efficiency & not an actual indication of internal engine cylinder head pressure waves or pulses as it relates to detonation prevention !


BMEP is a snap shot of state of tune and is in fact a measure of the pressure on the piston through out its cycle. It also very much does correlate with your last two points..
And a modern 125cc moto x bike is way ahead of a 70's era Mac.. a Mac was under 10hp and a KTM 125cc bike motor is 35+HP.


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## jellyroll (Oct 15, 2022)

50:1 is what i run anymore and i have not had a problem but my stuff is stock.


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## jellyroll (Oct 15, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I agree Husky and Echo do produce a quality oil , although you pay for it lol. Thanks for the origin of Stihl south of the border !


Echo oil in my area is cheaper than stihl or husqvarna oil this is after tax on the 2.6 ounce bottle. I only burn 2 gallons of mix in the winter because i cut my wood in the summer.
Stihl orange bottle $2.96
Husqvarna HP $3.11
Echo powerblend gold $2.50


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Oct 15, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> For new people that don't know what to do .


lmao

If someone was new to 2strokes, and read this thread front to back, they would be more confused than had they just read the owners manual and started cutting.


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## toppers (Oct 16, 2022)

Can sum up and end every oil thread with one line: Echo red armor 50:1

with ethanol free fuel, of course


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Echo oil in my area is cheaper than stihl or husqvarna oil this is after tax on the 2.6 ounce bottle. I only burn 2 gallons of mix in the winter because i cut my wood in the summer.
> Stihl orange bottle $2.96
> Husqvarna HP $3.11
> Echo powerblend gold $2.50


The Powerblend is a stout oil !


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

toppers said:


> Can sum up and end every oil thread with one line: Echo red armor 50:1
> 
> with ethanol free fuel, of course


The amount of residual oil Red Armor is amazing. No reservations running it at 50:1 and probably would not go over 40:1.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The amount of residual oil Red Armor is amazing. No reservations running it at 50:1 and probably would not go over 40:1.


What is the relative density & viscosity of Red Armor vs Saber ?


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> What is the relative density & viscosity of Red Armor vs Saber ?


I don't know.


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## sean donato (Oct 16, 2022)

So I'll stir the pot. What makes the red armor so much better then the hp+/redmax?
Seems we all can agree they are all great oils, but the red armor keeps popping up as "the best" or "better then" other highly rated oils.
Feeble minds want to know...


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

sean donato said:


> So I'll stir the pot. What makes the red armor so much better then the hp+/redmax?
> Seems we all can agree they are all great oils, but the red armor keeps popping up as "the best" or "better then" other highly rated oils.
> Feeble minds want to know...


Ok , my slant all quality oils , the thing that that separates Red Armor in my opinion is its ability to coat the metal surfaces thoughly . I call it film strength or ability to adhere well . Even so , it mix's well stays in suspension & tends to burn completely within the mix leaving no or little deposits anywhere within a properly tuned saw . Previously the price point was its only down side . If the pricing indicated by or forum member is correct its a slam dunk , I'll buy a gallon or two lol.


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## sean donato (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ok , my slant all quality oils , the thing that that separates Red Armor in my opinion is its ability to coat the metal surfaces thoughly . I call it film strength or ability to adhere well . Even so , it mix's well stays in suspension & tends to burn completely within the mix leaving no or little deposits anywhere within a properly tuned saw . Previously the price point was its only down side . If the pricing indicated by or forum member is correct its a slam dunk , I'll buy a gallon or two lol.


Yeah his pricing is correct, I have, had it saved for some time in my Amazon list, it hasn't gone up in price yet. The redmax has started going up.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

I'am buying a Gallon tommorrow . P.S. How bout them Steeler 's 20 - 18 win over The Brady's Bunch !


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## sean donato (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I'am buying a Gallon tommorrow . P.S. How bout them Steeler 's 20 - 18 win over The Brady's Bunch !


So you may find this hard to believe, but im not much into sports. I couldn't tell you how any ball team is doing lol.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

sean donato said:


> So you may find this hard to believe, but im not much into sports. I couldn't tell you how any ball team is doing lol.


That's ok , your Steelers from Pittsburg did quite well brother ! I was a sports fanatic not so much now either , way to many teams in all the various Major leagues . Anyhow , that pricing on the Redmax & Red Armor is fantastic , I seriously will check out the Red Armor if its still at $50 that OM617YOTA advised , I need a gallon for when Kevin ports the new Dolkita .


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Since your the oil guru , could you find out for us please !


I have no interest in doing so. If you do have at it.
The reason why is It just doesn't matter much to me.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ok , my slant all quality oils , the thing that that separates Red Armor in my opinion is its ability to coat the metal surfaces thoughly . I call it film strength or ability to adhere well . Even so , it mix's well stays in suspension & tends to burn completely within the mix leaving no or little deposits anywhere within a properly tuned saw . Previously the price point was its only down side . If the pricing indicated by or forum member is correct its a slam dunk , I'll buy a gallon or two lol.


That's my opinion too.
I've never seen any two cycle oil coat the bottom end like Red Armor. And I've observed than a few!


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## North by Northwest (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I have no interest in doing so. If you do have at it.
> The reason why is It just doesn't matter much to me.


I think I found what I needed , it was more specific gravity at a specific temperature vs viscosity & flash points again at specific temperatures , no biggy answered my own question , not the 1st likely not the last


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ok , my slant all quality oils , the thing that that separates Red Armor in my opinion is its ability to coat the metal surfaces thoughly . I call it film strength or ability to adhere well . Even so , it mix's well stays in suspension & tends to burn completely within the mix leaving no or little deposits anywhere within a properly tuned saw . Previously the price point was its only down side . If the pricing indicated by or forum member is correct its a slam dunk , I'll buy a gallon or two lol.


Red armor is $3.50 here after tax for the 2.6 ounce bottle.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Red armor is $3.50 here after tax for the 2.6 ounce bottle.


Pretty steep price. If buy online if I wanted it.


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

Nothing is cheap these days.
The ace hardware brand low ash oil sold in the quart bottles is good stuff but you won't see any certifications on it it cost $10 per 32 ounces.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Nothing is cheap these days.
> The ace hardware brand low ash oil sold in the quart bottles is good stuff but you won't see any certifications on it it cost $10 per 32 ounces.


Ace hardware is pretty expensive on a lot of stuff.
I did see 2.5 gallon jug of mystic bar oil for $24 today at a local farm store.


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

$10 per quart on two stroke oil is good in my opinion for my area. it averages at $40 per gallon and performs the same as power blend oil.


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## bwalker (Oct 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> $10 per quart on two stroke oil is good in my opinion for my area. it averages at $40 per gallon and performs the same as power blend oil.


Redmax oil is only slightly more expensive and it's actually Jaso FD certified.
You have any Citgo stations where you live. Citgo air cooled is certified and good stuff as well.
I actually tried to run some non certified low ash oil made by the company I work for. I could tell it was garbage pretty quick. I just don't trust cheap oils that are not certified.


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Redmax oil is only slightly more expensive and it's actually Jaso FD certified.
> You have any Citgo stations where you live. Citgo air cooled is certified and good stuff as well.
> I actually tried to run some non certified low ash oil made by the company I work for. I could tell it was garbage pretty quick. I just don't trust cheap oils that are not certified.


No citgo stations here only Shell, Marathon, BP, and Sunoco.


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## jellyroll (Oct 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Redmax oil is only slightly more expensive and it's actually Jaso FD certified.
> You have any Citgo stations where you live. Citgo air cooled is certified and good stuff as well.
> I actually tried to run some non certified low ash oil made by the company I work for. I could tell it was garbage pretty quick. I just don't trust cheap oils that are not certified.


Ran it all summer without any problems.


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## Captain Bruce (Oct 16, 2022)

40:1.....they're either gonna smoke, or scream.


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## Stihl 041S (Oct 16, 2022)

Captain Bruce said:


> 40:1.....they're either gonna smoke, or scream.


Or 25:1 per stihl. Lol


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## MacAttack (Oct 16, 2022)

Imagine some poor S.O.B. who's new to 2-stroke saws reading 12 pages of this and trying to make sense of it....lol.

Who is starting these oil threads? Is it Russian bots? North Korea? The "Green New Deal" people?


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## North by Northwest (Oct 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Ace hardware is pretty expensive on a lot of stuff.
> I did see 2.5 gallon jug of mystic bar oil for $24 today at a local farm store.


Yeah Mystik $7.00 a gallon @ Blaines farm & fleet so $21 for 3 gallons + Tax Never tried it but Ben swears by it , so can 't all that bad .


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## Xmaniac (Oct 19, 2022)

Iffykid said:


> Do you rinse out the pre measured bottles to get every last drop? otherwise your not getting a true 40:1 ratio.


That's why I'm mixing 40:1 instead of manufacturers recommended 50:1. Even then I don't put the full 2.5 or 5 gallons in. Also add a few ounces of sea foam additive. The newer computerized carb saws are literally melting a hole in the top of piston because to pass C.A.R.B. EPA the manufacturers have them set to run super lean on recommended 50:1 mix.... my buddy had 2 ms201s do this in 3 weeks of usage... he found aftermarket adjustable carbs, replaced the piston/ring's,honed out cylinder, did some porting and canceled out the computer...they rip now...


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 19, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> No citgo stations here only Shell, Marathon, BP, and Sunoco.



If you have a Wilco farm store in the area, they used to carry Citgo lubes. Not seeing Citgo stuff on their website anymore, worth a call before going in.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 19, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> That's ok , your Steelers from Pittsburg did quite well brother ! I was a sports fanatic not so much now either , way to many teams in all the various Major leagues . Anyhow , that pricing on the Redmax & Red Armor is fantastic , I seriously will check out the Red Armor if its still at $50 that OM617YOTA advised , I need a gallon for when Kevin ports the new Dolkita .


It's gone up, $210 for 4 gallons now. That pricing only works at 4 gallons, not one gallon.

Edit: I mis-remembered, price hasn't gone up. It was $210 for 4 gallons of Red Armor when I posted the link.


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## huskihl (Oct 19, 2022)

Citgo and Mystic are the same product. Might be easier to find. Here at the co-op, a few years ago I bought a gallon of Citgo Sea and Snow FD rated oil for $23. I’ve seen it advertised as Mystic in Meijer and the tractor supply type stores


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## bwalker (Oct 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Citgo and Mystic are the same product. Might be easier to find. Here at the co-op, a few years ago I bought a gallon of Citgo Sea and Snow FD rated oil for $23. I’ve seen it advertised as Mystic in Meijer and the tractor supply type stores


I used many gallons of that stuff in my last sled and that damn thing ran at the equivalent to 20:1.


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## jellyroll (Oct 19, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> If you have a Wilco farm store in the area, they used to carry Citgo lubes. Not seeing Citgo stuff on their website anymore, worth a call before going in.


No wilco in my area.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 19, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> It's gone up, $210 for 4 gallons now. That pricing only works at 4 gallons, not one gallon.
> 
> Edit: I mis-remembered, price hasn't gone up. It was $210 for 4 gallons of Red Armor when I posted the link.


Ok , thanks ! I put in an order earlier & it didn't accept . So I guess there was a glitch . I will check again this weekend , I would like a quart or two , the $50 usd. for a gallon was attractive !


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## lone wolf (Oct 19, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ok , thanks ! I put in an order earlier & it didn't accept . So I guess there was a glitch . I will check again this weekend , I would like a quart or two , the $50 usd. for a gallon was attractive !


Better stock up the way things are going.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 19, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Better stock up the way things are going.


Your right Wolfy ! I have lots of oil for my Saws , however would like to trial the Red Armor for my two high performance sleds !


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## lone wolf (Oct 19, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Your right Wolfy ! I have lots of oil for my Saws , however would like to trial the Red Armor for my two high performance sleds !


Do it Do it!


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## North by Northwest (Oct 19, 2022)

I


lone wolf said:


> Do it Do it!


I Will I will ...promise lol .


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## jellyroll (Oct 19, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> I
> 
> I Will I will ...promise lol .


Might outrun something using good oil in them.


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## sean donato (Oct 19, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Ok , thanks ! I put in an order earlier & it didn't accept . So I guess there was a glitch . I will check again this weekend , I would like a quart or two , the $50 usd. for a gallon was attractive !


It's a good link. I ordered 4 gallons off it. $226 and change with tax.
Supposes to show up Sunday.


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## sean donato (Oct 19, 2022)

Echo 6550050 Red Armor Oil Mix 2-Cycle/2-Stroke High Performance, Semi-Synthetic, Clean and Protect Against Carbon Build Up, Outdoor Power Equipment Engine Formula 128 fl oz (1 Gal. - 4 Pack.) https://a.co/eCOCbg7


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## North by Northwest (Oct 20, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Echo 6550050 Red Armor Oil Mix 2-Cycle/2-Stroke High Performance, Semi-Synthetic, Clean and Protect Against Carbon Build Up, Outdoor Power Equipment Engine Formula 128 fl oz (1 Gal. - 4 Pack.) https://a.co/eCOCbg7


Yeah , shows unavailable ?


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## sean donato (Oct 20, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yeah , shows unavailable ?


Don't know brother. Must be a great white north thing...


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## sean donato (Oct 20, 2022)

Think you would catch any grief crossing the border with it? In you could have a family member get it, then when you come down to visit take it home with you?


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## North by Northwest (Oct 20, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Think you would catch any grief crossing the border with it? In you could have a family member get it, then when you come down to visit take it home with you?


Yeah , that's a option Sean . I will be in Michigan in 3rd week of November !


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## link (Oct 20, 2022)

I use fully synthetic 2 stroke oil at 2,5%, I think that translates to about 40:1.
First tank in a new saw/cylinder or when I adjust the carburetor I use 4%, that would translate to at about 25:1


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## North by Northwest (Oct 20, 2022)

link said:


> I use fully synthetic 2 stroke oil at 2,5%, I think that translates to about 40:1.
> First tank in a new saw/cylinder or when I adjust the carburetor I use 4%, that would translate to at about 25:1


2.6 oz oil would be 50:1. 3.2 oz oil would be 40:1. 4 oz oil would be 32:1 within a US Gallon , brother .


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## North by Northwest (Oct 20, 2022)

link said:


> I use fully synthetic 2 stroke oil at 2,5%, I think that translates to about 40:1.
> First tank in a new saw/cylinder or when I adjust the carburetor I use 4%, that would translate to at about 25:1


Good to run a little richer on a new saw , for a few tanks altering the rpm continuously on the 1st tank to let the rings seat in .


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## bwalker (Oct 21, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Good to run a little richer on a new saw , for a few tanks altering the rpm continuously on the 1st tank to let the rings seat in .


I m7ch prefer the Kentucky tune up method for breaking in a two cycle. IE bring the motor up to temp and run the piss out of it as hard as you can.
The only thing that requires break in with a two cycle are for the rings to seat. Farting around with low loads doesn't seat the rings. Fart around long enough and the motor will never seat the rings properly. 
Years ago I would have never done this. That was until I seen an engine builder of great reputation flog a new motor on a dyno for break-in.


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## aokpops (Oct 22, 2022)

Going to baby all my 4 cycles too. I just have to add extra oil to it. No way as smart as an engine builder or an engineer. I just add extra oil to all engines because extra oil is better. My push mower says 20 Onces I know 40 is better. I like to add an extra quart to my car after an oil change. I just know the smart people are just stupid. I really don't care I have oil blowing out every ware just doing it right. Was thinking of an oil changing place we add extra oil. For the engine savers of the world. A lot of smoke and carbon oil every ware is what you like. We have it at over fill your dip stick dot com. No one will feel safe I pole the dip stick out and wait to bottom for the results you should see oil a lot before the bottom. At over fill your dip stick will look like you blow a head gasket with so much oil. You can stop a lot of rusting from all the oil


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## rogue60 (Oct 22, 2022)

aokpops said:


> Going to baby all my 4 cycles too. I just have to add extra oil to it. No way as smart as an engine builder or an engineer. I just add extra oil to all engines because extra oil is better. My push mower says 20 Onces I know 40 is better. I like to add an extra quart to my car after an oil change. I just know the smart people are just stupid. I really don't care I have oil blowing out every ware just doing it right. Was thinking of an oil changing place we add extra oil. For the engine savers of the world. A lot of smoke and carbon oil every ware is what you like. We have it at over fill your dip stick dot com. No one will feel safe I pole the dip stick out and wait to bottom for the results you should see oil a lot before the bottom. At over fill your dip stick will look like you blow a head gasket with so much oil. You can stop a lot of rusting from all the oil


You have absolutely no clue of the difference between a four stroke and a two stroke that's very clear with the above rant aimed at people that run more oil in 2T's than the manual says lol
I agree best you stick with what the manual tells ya to do


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## Tomos770 (Oct 22, 2022)

aokpops said:


> Going to baby all my 4 cycles too. I just have to add extra oil to it. No way as smart as an engine builder or an engineer. I just add extra oil to all engines because extra oil is better. My push mower says 20 Onces I know 40 is better. I like to add an extra quart to my car after an oil change. I just know the smart people are just stupid. I really don't care I have oil blowing out every ware just doing it right. Was thinking of an oil changing place we add extra oil. For the engine savers of the world. A lot of smoke and carbon oil every ware is what you like. We have it at over fill your dip stick dot com. No one will feel safe I pole the dip stick out and wait to bottom for the results you should see oil a lot before the bottom. At over fill your dip stick will look like you blow a head gasket with so much oil. You can stop a lot of rusting from all the oil




Do this with a modern DPF/GPF equiped car.....and you will get an oil burner (and also clogged DPF/GPF filter)

Modern cars needs slightly less oil ona dipstick (1-3mm below the MAX mark...

BUT....still....








Honda EU10i smoking. To ring or not to re-ring. That is the question.


whether tis nobler in the mind… blah de blah Often the first symptom people actually notice is that machine cuts out after a few seconds running due to low oil level actuating the oil alert s…




petepowerblog.wordpress.com





With nowadays "Cheenesium alloys"....


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 22, 2022)

A better comparison would be that you're going to install an oil sump that doubles the capacity of your four stroke engine. That'd be a great mod.


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## sean donato (Oct 22, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I m7ch prefer the Kentucky tune up method for breaking in a two cycle. IE bring the motor up to temp and run the piss out of it as hard as you can.
> The only thing that requires break in with a two cycle are for the rings to seat. Farting around with low loads doesn't seat the rings. Fart around long enough and the motor will never seat the rings properly.
> Years ago I would have never done this. That was until I seen an engine builder of great reputation flog a new motor on a dyno for break-in.


No one believes this till they see it on a dyno or believe someone like you meantion. Only time I've ever putzed an engine around was to break in the cam. Other then that, it's warm it up and load it up. We dynoed every engine we built at the machine shop. Was pretty cool to watch all the guages while it broke in and give it full load. Let you know pretty quick if you did your part right or not.


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## huskihl (Oct 22, 2022)

sean donato said:


> No one believes this till they see it on a dyno or believe someone like you meantion. Only time I've ever putzed an engine around was to break in the cam. Other then that, it's warm it up and load it up. We dynoed every engine we built at the machine shop. Was pretty cool to watch all the guages while it broke in and give it full load. Let you know pretty quick if you did your part right or not.


I’ve seen a new 880 with the front of the saw covered in black goo because someone told him to idle it for a whole tank before cutting with it


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## jellyroll (Oct 22, 2022)

New equipment i just tune them just a little more rich on the carburetor then run it like i stole it. Usually see results in 2-3 tanks and.


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## jellyroll (Oct 22, 2022)

sean donato said:


> No one believes this till they see it on a dyno or believe someone like you meantion. Only time I've ever putzed an engine around was to break in the cam. Other then that, it's warm it up and load it up. We dynoed every engine we built at the machine shop. Was pretty cool to watch all the guages while it broke in and give it full load. Let you know pretty quick if you did your part right or not.


That craftsman s145 i gassed it up and tuned it a little then ran it hard the whole time and it is still living. It took it 3 tanks for it to settle down using the oil that came with it.


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## aokpops (Oct 22, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> You have absolutely no clue of the difference between a four stroke and a two stroke that's very clear with the above rant aimed at people that run more oil in 2T's than the manual says lol
> I agree best you stick with what the manual tells ya to do


I like giving people crap for thinking extra oil is good. I just never hear much on people adding more oil on a 4 cycle. What I seen on both engines if you add to much oil it just blows oil out every ware. I have a few Tecumseh 2 cycle engines the gas cap read 32 to 1 I mixed it that way. I would say the muffler should never rust out .For decades I just made one mix for all 2 cycles my old Lawn boy I start with either. I do have a clue about 2 strokes back in my outboard days I would hear a new camshaft would make it faster. And there was the fraction thing 50 to 1 was more than 32 to 1


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## sawmill sam (Oct 23, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> You have absolutely no clue of the difference between a four stroke and a two stroke that's very clear with the above rant aimed at people that run more oil in 2T's than the manual says lol
> I agree best you stick with what the manual tells ya to do


Using more oil than factory recommended amounts on 2 strokes cause more heat and carbon buildup internally.
End of story.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 23, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> Using more oil than factory recommended amounts on 2 strokes cause more heat and carbon buildup internally.
> End of story.



You're using the wrong oil.

Edit: And/or tuning wrong.


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## sawmill sam (Oct 23, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> You're using the wrong oil.


No, I am not using the wrong oil! Oil burns hotter than gas!! Do your research!! Oil leaves more carbon buildup as well.
Running a bit richer is the only way to go, maybe 1/8 to 1/4 turn on the low setting.


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 23, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> No, I am not using the wrong oil! Oil burns hotter than gas!! Do your research!! Oil leaves more carbon buildup as well.
> Running a bit richer is the only way to go, maybe 1/8 to 1/4 turn on the low setting.



I have done my research, that's why I disagree with you.

I'm done with you.


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## jellyroll (Oct 23, 2022)

Been using more than recommended for years and my engines are cleaner than running on 50:1.


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## jellyroll (Oct 23, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I have done my research, that's why I disagree with you.
> 
> I'm done with you.


I bet he uses stihl ultra at 50:1


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## huskihl (Oct 23, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> No, I am not using the wrong oil! Oil burns hotter than gas!! Do your research!! Oil leaves more carbon buildup as well.
> Running a bit richer is the only way to go, maybe 1/8 to 1/4 turn on the low setting.


Better oils have detergents where some don’t. I’ve personally seen cleaner engines run with heavier oil ratios


----------



## bwalker (Oct 25, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I like giving people crap for thinking extra oil is good. I just never hear much on people adding more oil on a 4 cycle. What I seen on both engines if you add to much oil it just blows oil out every ware. I have a few Tecumseh 2 cycle engines the gas cap read 32 to 1 I mixed it that way. I would say the muffler should never rust out .For decades I just made one mix for all 2 cycles my old Lawn boy I start with either. I do have a clue about 2 strokes back in my outboard days I would hear a new camshaft would make it faster. And there was the fraction thing 50 to 1 was more than 32 to 1


Couple things. There is a big differance between a four cycle and a marginally lubricated engine like a 2 cycle.
If your blowing oil out the exhaust it's a tuning issue, a wrong oil issue or you aren't loading the motor enough.


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## bwalker (Oct 25, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> Using more oil than factory recommended amounts on 2 strokes cause more heat and carbon buildup internally.
> End of story.


No, it doesn't as it pertains to carbon deposits. I've seen motors ran at 16:1 that are about as clean as you can expect.
As for more heat. Maybe, maybe not. If you make more.power you generate more heat and load, tune and muffler have a much greater influence on heat than mix ratio by several degrees of magnitude.


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## bwalker (Oct 25, 2022)

sawmill sam said:


> No, I am not using the wrong oil! Oil burns hotter than gas!! Do your research!! Oil leaves more carbon buildup as well.
> Running a bit richer is the only way to go, maybe 1/8 to 1/4 turn on the low setting.


No, it's not...and for a variety of reasons.
Most of the carbon in a motor is caused by poor quality pump gas these days.
Even a Cycle motor will build up carbon..


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## North by Northwest (Oct 25, 2022)

sean donato said:


> No one believes this till they see it on a dyno or believe someone like you meantion. Only time I've ever putzed an engine around was to break in the cam. Other then that, it's warm it up and load it up. We dynoed every engine we built at the machine shop. Was pretty cool to watch all the guages while it broke in and give it full load. Let you know pretty quick if you did your part right or not.


Yep , never lug or putz any saw engine even once broken in keep it wicked up & varing the throttle out of the cut . It's air cooled worse thing you can do , is reduce the air flow over the power head for any prolonged period . What did you use on you new cam installations Sean , assembly lube or break in oil ? Run it like you stole it !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 25, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> A better comparison would be that you're going to install an oil sump that doubles the capacity of your four stroke engine. That'd be a great mod.


Or dual canister bypass filters that double the original filter oil & filtering capacity , more oil cooler engine !


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## sean donato (Oct 25, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Yep , never lug or putz any saw engine even once broken in keep it wicked up & varing the throttle out of the cut . It's air cooled worse thing you can do , is reduce the air flow over the power head for any prolonged period . What did you use on you new cam installations Sean , assembly lube or break in oil ? Run it like you stole it !


Cam assembly lube. We got it from clevite. Thick, tacky red stuff. Clung like crazy. Always liked it. I actually used it for bearings as well. Never used a specific break in oil, unless it was a deere engine as they had a specific oil they wanted you to use. Other then that it got regular Dino oil. 4 hours on the dyno. Fluids drained, steamed off, painted if requested then made ready for shipping/installation.


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## Chevboy0167 (Oct 25, 2022)

I second the Clevite. Still use it!


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## sean donato (Oct 25, 2022)

Chevboy0167 said:


> I second the Clevite. Still use it!
> 
> View attachment 1027462


Yep, thats the stuff.


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 25, 2022)

I think the chemists who blend the oil and engineers who design the saws don't know what they are doing.

So, I listen to morons on forums.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 25, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Cam assembly lube. We got it from clevite. Thick, tacky red stuff. Clung like crazy. Always liked it. I actually used it for bearings as well. Never used a specific break in oil, unless it was a deere engine as they had a specific oil they wanted you to use. Other then that it got regular Dino oil. 4 hours on the dyno. Fluids drained, steamed off, painted if requested then made ready for shipping/installation.


Awesome Sean , yeah recall the Red Goo lol. I used it on a Ford Cleveland I rebuilt in my 1979 XLT . Roller lifter & cam assembly . After market valves & springs high flow oil pump Acel Coil Bendix adjustible high pressure fuel regulator & injectors system TRW fuel injection heads etc . I ran a break in oil for a short duration as recommended back then. I was running Valoline Durablend 10w-40 semi synthetic & wix gold oil filter. I put a lot of mills on that 351 short block lol.


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## huskihl (Oct 25, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I think the chemists who blend the oil and engineers who design the saws don't know what they are doing.
> 
> So, I listen to morons on forums.


Just gotta choose the right morons


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I think the chemists who blend the oil and engineers who design the saws don't know what they are doing.
> 
> So, I listen to morons on forums.


You clearly haven't been around very many chemists or engineers..
Let's just say after witnessing many a cluster fuq started by those two professions I have limited faith in them. Good ones are few and far between.


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You clearly haven't been around very many chemists or engineers..
> Let's just say after witnessing many a cluster fuq started by those two professions I have limited faith in them. Good ones are few and far between.



So, you are thinking I should be more trusting of morons on an internet forum to determine what to run in my saws than the people who make them.


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## sean donato (Oct 26, 2022)

Man I'm an ass clown on one thread and a moron on this one. Let's see how many other insults we can get in there this week....


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## North by Northwest (Oct 26, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Man I'm an ass clown on one thread and a moron on this one. Let's see how many other insults we can get in there this week....


Nah , your not on the top of that list Sean , not even a contender brother !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> So, you are thinking I should be more trusting of morons on an internet forum to determine what to run in my saws than the people who make them.


I would be more interested within what the oil manufacturers recommend within their oils usage actually . There are some rather valid & experienced recommendations that have been offered by some rather knowledgible people here brother !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 26, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Do it Do it!


Hey Wolfy , got my 4 gallons of Red Armor brother . Ordered to my daughters in Michigan . So my sleds will be running a trial starting with my RXL since its the hottest running model then the trail & powder 700 SKS & 850 RMK .


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## lone wolf (Oct 26, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Hey Wolfy , got my 4 gallons of Red Armor brother . Ordered to my daughters in Michigan . So my sleds will be running a trial starting with my RXL since its the hottest running model then the trail & powder 700 SKS & 850 RMK .


Good deal the prices will only go up and who knows about future availabilty.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 26, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Good deal the prices will only go up and who knows about future availabilty.


Yeah , absolutely brother !


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## rogue60 (Oct 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> So, you are thinking I should be more trusting of morons on an internet forum to determine what to run in my saws than the people who make them.


Actually no... Manuals and recommendations are for morons that have little to zero knowledge of how most things mechanical even work. Stick to the manual's buddy I agree 100% you should


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## OM617YOTA (Oct 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I think the chemists who blend the oil and engineers who design the saws don't know what they are doing.
> 
> So, I listen to morons on forums.



You're assuming that the goals of those chemists and engineers are the same as ours. Frequently they are not.


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## jellyroll (Oct 26, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Man I'm an ass clown on one thread and a moron on this one. Let's see how many other insults we can get in there this week....


We have all been called worse don't sweat it sean.


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## bwalker (Oct 26, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> So, you are thinking I should be more trusting of morons on an internet forum to determine what to run in my saws than the people who make them.


If your not a moron yourself do the research which is available through SAE and other sources and form your own educated opinion.
And you are right there are many morons on the internet, but it's also not hard to sift the wheat from the chaff so to speak.


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## sean donato (Oct 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> We have all been called worse don't sweat it sean.


Just getting a little irritated with the name calling on the forum lately. We have differing opinions, views, and experiences. There's no reason for name calling.


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## jellyroll (Oct 27, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Just getting a little irritated with the name calling on the forum lately. We have differing opinions, views, and experiences. There's no reason for name calling.


People are even worse on *o p e* forum.


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## sean donato (Oct 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> People even worse on AboristSite.


Thats the site were on, I haven't been to the ther one in years.


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## jellyroll (Oct 27, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Thats the site were on, I haven't been to the ther one in years.


Sorry i have not had my morning coffee yet i meant the other place o p e


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## huskihl (Oct 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> People are even worse on *o p e* forum.


Careful what you say, Jake. You were doing some name-calling on there as well if I remember right


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## huskihl (Oct 27, 2022)

Point being, people say things they shouldn’t when they are angry or frustrated, myself included. 
There would be a lot less arguing if guys would take it upon themselves to look in the bottom end of a saw once in a while to actually see the difference and form their own educated opinion, instead of an uneducated opinion


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## bwalker (Oct 27, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Point being, people say things they shouldn’t when they are angry or frustrated, myself included.
> There would be a lot less arguing if guys would take it upon themselves to look in the bottom end of a saw once in a while to actually see the difference and form their own educated opinion, instead of an uneducated opinion


This.
Most guys are totally and utterly ignorant on the subject but very firm in their convictions. Most of which are based on old wives tales and internet BS.
I have zero problem with spades be called out as spades. Some people should be afraid to open their mouths.


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## bwalker (Oct 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Sorry i have not had my morning coffee yet i meant the other place o p e


That other site is a place for Randy's boot lickers to blow sunshine up his azz.


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 27, 2022)

I work on this frigging stuff every day to the point I wish I never saw another saw, weed eater, or blower.

The problem is usually not what oil you are using, it is not using any.

Caveat being 4 Mix engines and valves getting deposits on them to the point they won't seal.

Some of these local guys are in love with Opti whatever. I charge them $40 to take a BR600 or BR700 apart and clean the valves. Hell of a deal for them.


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## bwalker (Oct 27, 2022)

ZeroJunk said:


> I work on this frigging stuff every day to the point I wish I never saw another saw, weed eater, or blower.
> 
> The problem is usually not what oil you are using, it is not using any.
> 
> ...


The four mix is just a bad design.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 27, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Careful what you say, Jake. You were doing some name-calling on there as well if I remember right


Nah not Jake , Kevin ...lol !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 27, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Point being, people say things they shouldn’t when they are angry or frustrated, myself included.
> There would be a lot less arguing if guys would take it upon themselves to look in the bottom end of a saw once in a while to actually see the difference and form their own educated opinion, instead of an uneducated opinion


Amen Brother , well said !


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## North by Northwest (Oct 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The four mix is just a bad design.


It was an completely unnecessary , with no salvation . That it was even considered , during its design stage is staggering , even after a few hours running its short comings were readily apparent . Overheating & sluggish performance & excessive fuel consumption to attain a little more low end torgue . I have owned one & worked on numerous Stihl 4 mix units . Primarily edgers , power brooms & tillers . High mtce. units & seasonal decarbonizing even with quality oil & ratios . Just by design , low rpm & low heat engines always produce deposits & more heat . Add Stihl Ultra & its a death sentence . A major Stihl Engineering blunder with no redemption !


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## jellyroll (Oct 27, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Careful what you say, Jake. You were doing some name-calling on there as well if I remember right


Sorry Kevin.


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## jellyroll (Oct 27, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Nah not Jake , Kevin ...lol !


Lets change the subject i am over that time in my life.


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## jellyroll (Oct 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> This.
> Most guys are totally and utterly ignorant on the subject but very firm in their convictions. Most of which are based on old wives tales and internet BS.
> I have zero problem with spades be called out as spades. Some people should be afraid to open their mouths.


I know a whole lot about nothing Ben.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 27, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Nah not Jake , Kevin ...lol !


Have you been miss behaving Jake , not like you youngin !


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## WCarp (Oct 29, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> For what its worth, I dont ever use any of the elite synthetic 2 stroke oils for chain saws, but I frequently use 2 stroke oils for outboard motors and conventional 2 stroke oils for air cooled motors meeting the min specs. What I do to baby my engines somewhat is I run all my mixes at 30 to 1 instead of 50 to 1 to assure a little extra lubrication to my
> bearings and cylinder walls etc. while running and also to leave heavier coating when saws are idle. I would expect there to be excessive carbon buildup perhaps but so far I have not seen it. The saws seem to run just as well and
> I dont really pay much more for oil as I usually buy it by the gallon.


I "baby" my saws by using Amsoil at 100:1 ratio. I get no smoke and have little or no problem with carbon. The saws probably have a little more power too.


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## Tomos770 (Oct 29, 2022)

I have no visible smoke once warmed up.....32:1 X-torq technology....(should be the same with 2-mix).


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 29, 2022)

WCarp said:


> I "baby" my saws by using Amsoil at 100:1 ratio. I get no smoke and have little or no problem with carbon. The saws probably have a little more power too.


I've never been brave enough to go 100:1. I run 48:1 with Saber.


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## jellyroll (Oct 29, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> I've never been brave enough to go 100:1. I run 48:1 with Saber.


I have been using 40:1 lately to break in a cheap craftsman s205 chainsaw.


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## bwalker (Oct 29, 2022)

WCarp said:


> I "baby" my saws by using Amsoil at 100:1 ratio. I get no smoke and have little or no problem with carbon. The saws probably have a little more power too.


Smoke and carbon with modern oils has nothing to do with oil ratio. It's all tuning.
And you're probably making less power.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Smoke and carbon with modern oils has nothing to do with oil ratio. It's all tuning.
> And you're probably making less power.


Is this like rolling coal in a diesel? More oil=higher compression?


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## bwalker (Oct 29, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> Is this like rolling coal in a diesel? More oil=higher compression?


Rolling coal in a diesel is due to over fueling for the available turbo size.
More oil in a two stroke contributes to better ring seal and thus higher compression.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Oct 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Rolling coal in a diesel is due to over fueling for the available turbo size.
> More oil in a two stroke contributes to better ring seal and thus higher compression.


Correct. However more fuel means higher compression in that case.


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## bwalker (Oct 29, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> Correct. However more fuel means higher compression in that case.


Compression stays the same. That's determined by chamber volume and boost.


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## link (Oct 29, 2022)

The Shooters Apprentice said:


> Correct. However more fuel means higher compression in that case.


You gonna eat that squirrel? because if you dont eat it - it's a murder.


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## sean donato (Oct 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Rolling coal in a diesel is due to over fueling for the available turbo size.
> More oil in a two stroke contributes to better ring seal and thus higher compression.


 getting under the turbo, too big of a turbo, stuck waste gate, stuck egr, stuck injector... smoke is partially burnt fuel doesn't mean the turbo is out of its map.


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## WCarp (Oct 29, 2022)

What you wrote is false


bwalker said:


> Smoke and carbon with modern oils has nothing to do with oil ratio. It's all tuning.
> And you're probably making less power.


.


----------



## North by Northwest (Oct 29, 2022)

WCarp said:


> What you wrote is false
> 
> .


----------



## huskihl (Oct 29, 2022)

WCarp said:


> What you wrote is false
> 
> .


Not at all. Maybe with pre-90’s oil.


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## North by Northwest (Oct 29, 2022)

sean donato said:


> getting under the turbo, too big of a turbo, stuck waste gate, stuck egr, stuck injector... smoke is partially burnt fuel doesn't mean the turbo is out of its map.


I agree with Sean , the turbo & fuel mapping would be the least obvious or potential contributing to rolling coal syndrome within newer. ECU monitored / electronic controlled turbo & common rail injector systems . Older batch injection & turbo's often had a lag & puff of smoke , until boost pressures equalized , also more prone to potential over pressure fuel delivery . I agree a restricted egr. faulty injectors or injector pump or even a faulty air filter canister restricting adequate air flow , are the most common causes of a overly rich fuel charge & excessive black smoke emissions !


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## rogue60 (Oct 30, 2022)

WCarp said:


> I "baby" my saws by using Amsoil at 100:1 ratio. I get no smoke and have little or no problem with carbon. The saws probably have a little more power too.


Please explain what do you mean more power? How does running 100:1 make more power?


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## lloyd786 (Nov 1, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> For what its worth, I dont ever use any of the elite synthetic 2 stroke oils for chain saws, but I frequently use 2 stroke oils for outboard motors and conventional 2 stroke oils for air cooled motors meeting the min specs. What I do to baby my engines somewhat is I run all my mixes at 30 to 1 instead of 50 to 1 to assure a little extra lubrication to my
> bearings and cylinder walls etc. while running and also to leave heavier coating when saws are idle. I would expect there to be excessive carbon buildup perhaps but so far I have not seen it. The saws seem to run just as well and
> I dont really pay much more for oil as I usually buy it by the gallon.


Did anyone ever notice that all the bikes and saws used to be 32 to 1. I know oil quality has improved but the time they started switching up to 50 to 1 corresponded to higher emission standard and requirements. I always just kept mixing 32 to 1. it's easy that way because it 4 oz per gallon and the marks on the bottle are in 2 oz increments, not 2.6 oz. I have some old jonsered 670's that are running strong after 25 years.


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## sawmill sam (Nov 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I bet he uses stihl ultra at 50:1


Sorry if I sounded loud but I have been milling for years and always follow factory recs. 
And I buy Lucas oil by the gallon.
Tell me what you think of this you tube video:


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## sean donato (Nov 3, 2022)

That's been posted many time before, it's what you would expect for not tuning to the mix. More oil equals less fuel. No adjustments to the carb, less fuel going into the engine, producing a leaner burn.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 3, 2022)

lloyd786 said:


> Did anyone ever notice that all the bikes and saws used to be 32 to 1. I know oil quality has improved but the time they started switching up to 50 to 1 corresponded to higher emission standard and requirements. I always just kept mixing 32 to 1. it's easy that way because it 4 oz per gallon and the marks on the bottle are in 2 oz increments, not 2.6 oz. I have some old jonsered 670's that are running strong after 25 years.


All my older 70 & early 80 ' S 2T bikes ran 32:1 fine . Some of my European cycles Husquarna , Maico , Bultaco & Cz liked 24:1 better as far as making better base compression & max horsepower . The Japanese & Can-Am moto's pulled well with both 32:1 & 40:1 in Premix usage both in Mx & Enduro applications !


----------



## sean donato (Nov 3, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> All my older 70 & early 80 ' S 2T bikes ran 32:1 fine . Some of my European cycles Husquarna , Maico , Bultaco & Cz liked 24:1 better as far as making better base compression & max horsepower . The Japanese & Can-Am moto's pulled well with both 32:1 & 40:1 in Premix usage both in Mx & Enduro applications !


We ran 25 to 1 in the old yz250 and kx250 bikes we had back when. Once we got into the mid 90's water cooled we backed down to 32 to 1 on the 250's and 125's, the cr500 stayed at 25 to 1. No idea why my brother kept running 25 to 1 in the cr500.


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## jellyroll (Nov 4, 2022)

Mixed up some 32:1 since i have been cutting some big stuff with my husqvarna. I hope it likes it since the oil is old like the saw


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## North by Northwest (Nov 4, 2022)

sean donato said:


> We ran 25 to 1 in the old yz250 and kx250 bikes we had back when. Once we got into the mid 90's water cooled we backed down to 32 to 1 on the 250's and 125's, the cr500 stayed at 25 to 1. No idea why my brother kept running 25 to 1 in the cr500.


Yeah , when you get into the bikes , its all about jetting . Pilot jet for a proper idle & off idle smooth acceleration . Then the transition to the main jet for a crisp throttle response without any lag . Proper sizing really could avoid having to down shift in numerous situations . Oversizing of the main jet could really effect operating temps & potential for spooge & exhaust side skirt deposits !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 4, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Mixed up some 32:1 since i have been cutting some big stuff with my husqvarna. I hope it likes it since the oil is old like the saw
> View attachment 1029674


lol. That's about the vintage of FC that my Shell 2T was I ran in my Cz & Husquarna 250's . Bet it smells the same too


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## jellyroll (Nov 4, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> lol. That's about the vintage of FC that my Shell 2T was I ran in my Cz & Husquarna 250's . Bet it smells the same too


very little smoke and has hardly any odor but does dye the fuel a nice dark blue.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 4, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> very little smoke and has hardly any odor but does dye the fuel a nice dark blue.


The Castrol had a pungent sweet smell . Did not smoke much , once the engine was up to temp .


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## jellyroll (Nov 4, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> The Castrol had a pungent sweet smell . Did not smoke much , once the engine was up to temp .


This oil i got ( pennzoil ) is still made under the quaker state brand but i have not seen any for sale for a while.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2022)

lloyd786 said:


> Did anyone ever notice that all the bikes and saws used to be 32 to 1. I know oil quality has improved but the time they started switching up to 50 to 1 corresponded to higher emission standard and requirements. I always just kept mixing 32 to 1. it's easy that way because it 4 oz per gallon and the marks on the bottle are in 2 oz increments, not 2.6 oz. I have some old jonsered 670's that are running strong after 25 years.


Yamaha still specs 30:1 for their two stroke bikes.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Please explain what do you mean more power? How does running 100:1 make more power?


Oil displaces fuel. Displaced fuel = a lean air / fuel mixture. Lean mixtures don't make power. This is more a factor on non-adjustable EPA carburetors, but for a given air / fuel mixture, a leaner oil / fuel mix results in a richer air / fuel mix.

I run every 2-stroke I own on Saber at 100:1, except for my paramotor - I run that at 66:1. Not because I'm afraid it'll seize, but because it was advice from someone with much more flying experience than I have that runs a paramotor school (and a pharmacy), and owns & repairs several paramotors. Just easier to follow someone else's lead in this case.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 6, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Oil displaces fuel. Displaced fuel = a lean air / fuel mixture. Lean mixtures don't make power. This is more a factor on non-adjustable EPA carburetors, but for a given air / fuel mixture, a leaner oil / fuel mix results in a richer air / fuel mix.
> 
> I run every 2-stroke I own on Saber at 100:1, except for my paramotor - I run that at 66:1. Not because I'm afraid it'll seize, but because it was advice from someone with much more flying experience than I have that runs a paramotor school (and a pharmacy), and owns & repairs several paramotors. Just easier to follow someone else's lead in this case.
> 
> View attachment 1030347


What you describe and what you acknowledge in regards to oils effect on air to fuel ratio is vastly surpassed by changes in ambient temperature.


----------



## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2022)

Not talking about temperature, or ANYTHING else. The question was, how a leaner oil / fuel mix makes more power. I explained that.


----------



## camel2019 (Nov 6, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I like giving people crap for thinking extra oil is good. I just never hear much on people adding more oil on a 4 cycle. What I seen on both engines if you add to much oil it just blows oil out every ware. I have a few Tecumseh 2 cycle engines the gas cap read 32 to 1 I mixed it that way. I would say the muffler should never rust out .For decades I just made one mix for all 2 cycles my old Lawn boy I start with either. I do have a clue about 2 strokes back in my outboard days I would hear a new camshaft would make it faster. And there was the fraction thing 50 to 1 was more than 32 to 1


Not if you tune your equipment I run all my equipment new and old at 32 to 1 and tune it for such. As a matter of fact my Stihl kombi tool was blowing extra oil out of the muffler from the dealership when it was running 50 to 1 bc 1 I was using the recommended Stihl oil(junk) and 2 think it was tuned rich.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Not talking about temperature, or ANYTHING else. The question was, how a leaner oil / fuel mix makes more power. I explained that.


They don't.
As you get leaner you will make more and more power until you seize. A 2 stroke will seize before you get leaner than stoichemetric in *most *cases.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> They don't.
> As you get leaner you will make more and more power until you seize. A 2 stroke will seize before you get leaner than stoichemetric in *most *cases.


Any mixture lower than a ideal stoich (14.7:1) air / gasoline fuel ratio is considered rich , which usually produces more horsepower & a cooler engine . Anything higher will be considered a lean mixture producing more heat & potential for oxide emissions & eventual seizure in my observations . Its a rather fine line & my experience more often involves Industrial air / fuel calculations with various fuel densities such as methane , propane coke oven gas & various heavy C fuel oils. So , I think Ben has a more accurate understanding of required air / fuel enrichment potentials & effects within a basic 2 T calculation . I would follow his lead !


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2022)

North by Northwest said:


> Any mixture lower than a ideal stoich (14.7:1) air / gasoline fuel ratio is considered rich , which usually produces more horsepower & a cooler engine . Anything higher will be considered a lean mixture producing more heat & potential for oxide emissions & eventual seizure in my observations . Its a rather fine line & my experience more often involves Industrial air / fuel calculations with various fuel densities such as methane , propane coke oven gas & various heavy C fuel oils. So , I think Ben has a more accurate understanding of required air / fuel enrichment potentials & effects within a basic 2 T calculation . I would follow his lead !


It's the whole what should happen in theory vs what actually happens.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's the whole what should happen in theory vs what actually happens.


Yep , pretty much !


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## aokpops (Nov 11, 2022)

camel2019 said:


> Not if you tune your equipment I run all my equipment new and old at 32 to 1 and tune it for such. As a matter of fact my Stihl kombi tool was blowing extra oil out of the muffler from the dealership when it was running 50 to 1 bc 1 I was using the recommended Stihl oil(junk) and 2 think it was tuned rich.


I run 80 to 1 all day everyday with every 2 stroke . I run it in my old lawn boy mower I start with starting fluid. The next nonsense is loud or no muffler to make power. Most small engines will not run with out a muffler or air filter. I really don't care what people think my view is. I ran a lot of stuff for a long time .


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## aokpops (Nov 12, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Please explain what do you mean more power? How does running 100:1 make more power?


I run 80 to 1 for decades not sure I lost power? I watch a lot of drag racing. Adding extra oil would be a cheap and easy edge. Never have I heard! I this one ! I just add more oil than anyone else and won. Might be a trade secret? My weapon a 95 neon should beat everything at the dragstrip just add extra oil. I could rip the air filter out and get rid all the exahust add 10 quarts of oil . I Just beat the crap out of everyone .


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## rogue60 (Nov 12, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I run 80 to 1 for decades not sure I lost power? I watch a lot of drag racing. Adding extra oil would be a cheap and easy edge. Never have I heard! I this one ! I just add more oil than anyone else and won. Might be a trade secret? My weapon a 95 neon should beat everything at the dragstrip just add extra oil. I could rip the air filter out and get rid all the exahust add 10 quarts of oil . I Just beat the crap out of everyone .


OMG clueless  
Why do people with little to no understanding about engines bring four stroke vehicle engines into two stroke oil mix discussions and add silly crap like the above and think they are somehow clever  

I'll explain the basic differences for ya k.
4T's get straight oil on the bore for excellent ring seal and long engine life, this is fixed the operator has no input in how much or how little oil is used on the bores. Thank god or people like you would be trying to limit this bad oil lol

2T's get oil from the mix the more oil in the mix the better the ring seal = more power this is fact end of discussion. 

You recommend running 80:1 with no understanding of what is going on inside ya engine this is a terrible sales pitch. I for one will never run 80:1 thanks to you recommending it alone


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## Dennisthemenace (Nov 12, 2022)

I always look forward to a post from Mr Rogue60, especially relating to oil!
For what it's worth, most of the serious blokes that I know add a fair bit more oil than 50/1 but don't seem to stress too much about the brand of the oil. 
Probably more important things to worry about


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## rogue60 (Nov 12, 2022)

Dennisthemenace said:


> I always look forward to a post from Mr Rogue60, especially relating to oil!
> For what it's worth, most of the serious blokes that I know add a fair bit more oil than 50/1 but don't seem to stress too much about the brand of the oil.
> Probably more important things to worry about


I was just joking around I actually don't run any oil in my saw mix haven't for decades the power increase is impressive. If people don't believe me of the benefits of no oil they should try it themselves the results will shock them.


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## Tomos770 (Nov 12, 2022)

He tried 40:1 and 4:1 in his lawnmover....

Without any temperature rise of engine....

So much for that that more oil burns hotter!


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## camel2019 (Nov 12, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I run 80 to 1 for decades not sure I lost power? I watch a lot of drag racing. Adding extra oil would be a cheap and easy edge. Never have I heard! I this one ! I just add more oil than anyone else and won. Might be a trade secret? My weapon a 95 neon should beat everything at the dragstrip just add extra oil. I could rip the air filter out and get rid all the exahust add 10 quarts of oil . I Just beat the crap out of everyone .


Big difference between a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke engine. As was said in another thread adding more oil to the mix on a 2 stroke can increase life and give you a better ring seal. Adding more oil to a 4 stroke will do nothing but have oil blowing out of the exhaust. the equivalent would be adding a bigger oil sump/pump to the 4 stroke engine again their still wouldn’t be any gains.


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## sean donato (Nov 12, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> He tried 40:1 and 4:1 in his lawnmover....
> 
> Without any temperature rise of engine....
> 
> So much for that that more oil burns hotter!



Big difference in engines there buddy.


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Big difference in engines there buddy.


And that's another youtube moron..


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## Tomos770 (Nov 12, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Big difference in engines there buddy.


Yes....The four-stroke engine retains the exhaust gases inside longer then two stroke one...

My opinion is that because of that "feature" it should run even hotter...?


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Yes....The four-stroke engine retains the exhaust gases inside longer then two stroke one...
> 
> My opinion is that because of that "feature" it should run even hotter...?


Yes, but a two cycle has twice as many firing events and thus has much higher piston temps as a result.


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## sean donato (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> And that's another youtube moron..


Some stuff he does is interesting, not definitive, but interesting non the less.


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Some stuff he does is interesting, not definitive, but interesting non the less.


Rather have a colonoscopy than watch..


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes, but a two cycle has twice as many firing events and thus has much higher piston temps as a result.


Also keep in mind the time the mixture is exposed to heat in a 2 vs 4 cycle. The 2 cycle is hotter, but much less time. 4 cycle is cooler but the intake charge is exposed to heat for much longer.


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## sean donato (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Also keep in mind the time the mixture is exposed to heat in a 2 vs 4 cycle. The 2 cycle is hotter, but much less time. 4 cycle is cooler but the intake charge is exposed to heat for much longer.


Only in a carbed application, port and direct injection the fuel is kept pretty cool vs a carb set up in a 4 stroke.


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Only in a carbed application, port and direct injection the fuel is kept pretty cool vs a carb set up in a 4 stroke.


Even with port the distance between the injector and the combustion chamber is longer. Plus with a four cycle the charge is exposed to heat for an extra stroke.
Direct injection is of course right into the chamber, but I believe the injector fires while the piston is at the bottom of its stroke.
Race fuels for two strokes always have lower temp distillation curves for this reason.


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 12, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> OMG clueless
> Why do people with little to no understanding about engines bring four stroke vehicle engines into two stroke oil mix discussions and add silly crap like the above and think they are somehow clever
> 
> I'll explain the basic differences for ya k.
> ...


Agreed. Why someone would spend thousands of dollars on chainsaws only to run a lean air fuel mixture to try to save a few dollars is beyond me. Also starting as two-stroke with starter fluid is a stupid idea. If you have to do it used to cycle mix.


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## aokpops (Nov 12, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> OMG clueless
> Why do people with little to no understanding about engines bring four stroke vehicle engines into two stroke oil mix discussions and add silly crap like the above and think they are somehow clever
> 
> I'll explain the basic differences for ya k.
> ...


I have mix 32 to 1 in a 2 cycle the results a lot of smoke a really oily muffler and the power was down, I have put too much oil in a 4 cycle with about the same results. I just got the same results from both engines. Other than that hydro lock all your 2 cycles with oil, reverse the mix 32 parts oil 1 part fuel. A saw that never runs never blows up.


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## bwalker (Nov 12, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I have mix 32 to 1 in a 2 cycle the results a lot of smoke a really oily muffler and the power was down, I have put too much oil in a 4 cycle with about the same results. I just got the same results from both engines. Other than that hydro lock all your 2 cycles with oil, reverse the mix 32 parts oil 1 part fuel. A saw that never runs never blows up.


Learn to tune a carb... and get a clue about the differences between the two engines.
Overfilling a 4 cycle just pumps oil into your intake typically via the PCV valve...


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## JRM (Nov 12, 2022)

I'm shocked at the number of people that haven't yet figured out aokpops hyperbole in his posts. He sure gets a lot of people riled up and I gotta admit, it's kind of amusing!


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## camel2019 (Nov 12, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I have mix 32 to 1 in a 2 cycle the results a lot of smoke a really oily muffler and the power was down, I have put too much oil in a 4 cycle with about the same results. I just got the same results from both engines. Other than that hydro lock all your 2 cycles with oil, reverse the mix 32 parts oil 1 part fuel. A saw that never runs never blows up.


Learn what the screws on the carb are for and smoke will never be a problem.


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## rogue60 (Nov 12, 2022)

Victa Australian made lawn mowers pulled two stroke mowers from it's line up. I remember one of the reasons was no matter how hard they tried they couldn't educate the masses two strokes need oil in the fuel. They were having huge amounts of customers coming back with said new mowers with the totally original line, I put fuel in it and it stopped working I did nothing wrong something must be wrong with it lol


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## rogue60 (Nov 12, 2022)

aokpops said:


> I have mix 32 to 1 in a 2 cycle the results a lot of smoke a really oily muffler and the power was down, I have put too much oil in a 4 cycle with about the same results. I just got the same results from both engines. Other than that hydro lock all your 2 cycles with oil, reverse the mix 32 parts oil 1 part fuel. A saw that never runs never blows up.


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## aokpops (Nov 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Learn to tune a carb... and get a clue about the differences between the two engines.
> Overfilling a 4 cycle just pumps oil into your intake typically via the PCV valve...


I have tuned carburetor. No tunning will overcome to much oil. I do know the difference a 2 cycle is the jet engine of piston engines. Every stroke is a power stroke. 4 cycles have no powerband. Unless you have turbo charge it maybe I never drove one. I have over mixed the oil in a 2 cycle and there is oil and smoke every ware. Not sure what! Mix the **** out of your oil I made it 40 years without your help. I got saws probably older than most on here. That might have fuel in them well over 10 years. I will no longer get in a pissing match. If you want to mix oil and fuel at some rate I will be ok with that. I tuned chainsaws and dirt bikes for forty years. The big insult for me I have no clue I get accuse of. I might have chainsaws older than the people that think they way smarter. Too much oil in the mix would like to learn this .


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## aokpops (Nov 12, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1031785





rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1031785


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## aokpops (Nov 12, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1031785


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## aokpops (Nov 12, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> View attachment 1031785


Hay live the life making fun of people. Do what makes you happy. You will get a lot of respect and make a lot of friends. How I feel you are a ass. About everyone avoids you. Unless you pay for everyone meals you have no friends. You have no respect for anything. I drought you have a girlfriend. I would say make fun of people if that makes yo_u happy see how it works out._


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## aokpops (Nov 13, 2022)

JRM said:


> I'm shocked at the number of people that haven't yet figured out aokpops hyperbole in his posts. He sure gets a lot of people riled up and I gotta admit, it's kind of amusing!


Not going to lie what is hyperbole? I just a live life how they let some people go with_ no treatment. My words are harsh but true. I would say I invited away takes a lot of hard work. And no one can the stealI the effort. I remember doing reports in school WTF are you talking about_


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## JRM (Nov 13, 2022)

aokpops said:


> Not going to lie what is hyperbole? I just a live life how they let some people go with_ no treatment. My words are harsh but true. I would say I invited away takes a lot of hard work. And no one can the stealI the effort. I remember doing reports in school WTF are you talking about_


A dictionary is an invaluable tool to look up words you don't know. You have one right on your computer. 

I'll give ya a hint, it wasn't an insult.


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## Hermio (Nov 13, 2022)

Once you have enough oil to seal the rings and lube all the parts, more oil will not increase power or decrease wear. It just becomes exhaust smoke. The problem is that we do not always know what that ratio is for any given engine and oil. I can remember when 16:1 was the norm. Today most use 50:1, no doubt due to oil improvements. Some claim 100:1 is doable. It may well be. But I am just more comfortable using 50:1 with a good synthetic oil, as this is proven to work. If I am wasting a bit of oil, so be it.


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## Hermio (Nov 13, 2022)

aokpops said:


> Not going to lie what is hyperbole? I just a live life how they let some people go with_ no treatment. My words are harsh but true. I would say I invited away takes a lot of hard work. And no one can the stealI the effort. I remember doing reports in school WTF are you talking about_


I can't figure out what you said. You need an editor.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Once you have enough oil to seal the rings and lube all the parts, more oil will not increase power or decrease wear. It just becomes exhaust smoke. The problem is that we do not always know what that ratio is for any given engine and oil. I can remember when 16:1 was the norm. Today most use 50:1, no doubt due to oil improvements. Some claim 100:1 is doable. It may well be. But I am just more comfortable using 50:1 with a good synthetic oil, as this is proven to work. If I am wasting a bit of oil, so be it.


That's not true. Ring seal and what's adequate to protect against wear varies by degrees.
As you increase oil content ring seal improves. This has been tested by multiple people and there is even a SAE paper that states this.
Likewise wear protection also increases with oil content. This is what the whole oil migration study proved. The higher the load and the longer at WOT the more oil you need.


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## MacAttack (Nov 13, 2022)

Man nothing good ever comes from an oil thread....and I'm just as guilty for contributing.


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## Hermio (Nov 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> That's not true. Ring seal and what's adequate to protect against wear varies by degrees.
> As you increase oil content ring seal improves. This has been tested by multiple people and there is even a SAE paper that states this.
> Likewise wear protection also increases with oil content. This is what the whole oil migration study proved. The higher the load and the longer at WOT the more oil you need.


What you just said in no way contradicts what I said, so I must speculate that you did not understand my post. The word "enough" is the key. There will always be a certain threshold of oil whereby 100% of the ring seal volume is filled with oil, and that is what is meant by "enough"; once it is full, it can hold no more, so more will not improve the seal. What you are talking about is what happens below sufficient oil, or "not enough". Likewise, when wearing parts are fully coated with enough oil to form a full film so as to prevent metal-to-metal contact, more oil does not help. Again, that condition might require more oil than a 50:1 ratio supplies; I do not know, and I doubt that many readers have any way of determining this. To some degree I have to depend on the OEM and the oil company claims, tempered with what users say about their own experiences.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Hermio said:


> What you just said in no way contradicts what I said, so I must speculate that you did not understand my post. The word "enough" is the key. There will always be a certain threshold of oil whereby 100% of the ring seal volume is filled with oil, and that is what is meant by "enough"; once it is full, it can hold no more, so more will not improve the seal. What you are talking about is what happens below sufficient oil, or "not enough". Likewise, when wearing parts are fully coated with enough oil to form a full film so as to prevent metal-to-metal contact, more oil does not help. Again, that condition might require more oil than a 50:1 ratio supplies; I do not know, and I doubt that many readers have any way of determining this. To some degree I have to depend on the OEM and the oil company claims, tempered with what users say about their own experiences.


I think you need to re read what I said. It very much contradict what your feelings on this issue. 
Again, to be clear. There is no magic ratio where full ring seal and ultimate protection takes place, but more is better in regards to both. How much more depends on load, state of tune and how long your at WOT.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

MacAttack said:


> Man nothing good ever comes from an oil thread....and I'm just as guilty for contributing.


It could..if more people would read and listen and not feel like the needed to add there misinformed 2 cents..


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## Hermio (Nov 13, 2022)

All you want to know...


All About 2 Stroke Engine Oils


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## Hermio (Nov 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I think you need to re read what I said. It very much contradict what your feelings on this issue.
> Again, to be clear. There is no magic ratio where full ring seal and ultimate protection takes place, but more is better in regards to both. How much more depends on load, state of tune and how long your at WOT.


What I said had nothing to do with feelings. It has to do with engineering and fluid flow. While I agree that more oil may be needed at some conditions than others, my main point stands: there is a point where no further improvement in results is possible. That is when the rings are fully filled with oil and the oil film on all wearing parts is unbroken. If you think things will still improve beyond that point, try running 50% oil and see how well your saw runs. There is such a thing as too much.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Hermio said:


> All you want to know...
> 
> 
> All About 2 Stroke Engine Oils


That page is full of so much BS and technical inaccuracies that it's useless.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Hermio said:


> What I said had nothing to do with feelings. It has to do with engineering and fluid flow. While I agree that more oil may be needed at some conditions than others, my main point stands: there is a point where no further improvement in results is possible. That is when the rings are fully filled with oil and the oil film on all wearing parts is unbroken. If you think things will still improve beyond that point, try running 50% oil and see how well your saw runs. There is such a thing as too much.


And I am telling you you are full of it.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Nov 13, 2022)

1/2 of you would get your ass kicked by a 3rd grater in Inglesh class.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Using too much oil will eventually cause rings to stick, Resulting in lost compression. It would definitely help the bearings though.


No it wont...


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> 1/2 of you would get your ass kicked by a 3rd grater in Inglesh class.


No kidding...but this isn't English class and those people that wasted money on English degrees are making peanuts..


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## Old-Feller (Nov 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No it wont...


Yes it will, Too much oil causes too much smoke/carbon, Too much carbon forms deposits in the ring grooves and causes them to stick, But what do I know? I was just a Mechanic for 30 years.


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## camel2019 (Nov 13, 2022)

My take on any oil thread is run any good quality oil you want at what ratio you want end of story.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 13, 2022)

Run a good Synthetic like VP or Red armor and you won't have problems.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Yes it will, Too much oil causes too much smoke/carbon, Too much carbon forms deposits in the ring grooves and causes them to stick, But what do I know? I was just a Mechanic for 30 years.


No it wont..won't... poor tuning and a host of other stuff does that.


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## jellyroll (Nov 13, 2022)

16:1 is working good for me it keeps the muffler from getting rusty.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 13, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No it wont..won't... poor tuning and a host of other stuff does that.


I'm sure you are an expert? You must be a pretty miserable guy, You are lucky to have internet forums or you would be arguing with a wall.


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## bwalker (Nov 13, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I'm sure you are an expert? You must be a pretty miserable guy, You are lucky to have internet forums or you would be arguing with a wall.


I'm just stating the obvious. You can throw around being a mechanic. However thats not impressive. Most mechanics are clueless on this subject and instead resort to old wives tales they here in the shop.
I'm happy as can be, buddy.. I just detest stupidity on these forums..


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Yes it will, Too much oil causes too much smoke/carbon, Too much carbon forms deposits in the ring grooves and causes them to stick, But what do I know? I was just a Mechanic for 30 years.


More oil will not cause more deposits in the ring grooves, in fact the opposite.


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## rogue60 (Nov 14, 2022)

In a vehicle if you over fill the engine with oil the excess oil drains down into the diff via the tail shaft so it doesn't matter. Same goes for chainsaws if you put to much oil in the mix the excess drains into the bar oil tank, but be careful my brother hydrolocked the oil pump doing this as the bar oil tank was over filled silly bugger.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm just stating the obvious. You can throw around being a mechanic. However thats not impressive. Most mechanics are clueless on this subject and instead resort to old wives tales they here in the shop.
> I'm happy as can be, buddy.. I just detest stupidity on these forums..





why do rings in an engine stick - Google Search




Andyshine77 said:


> More oil will not cause more deposits in the ring grooves, in fact the opposite.


From Google,

What causes rings to get stuck in piston?










oil burning causes piston rings to stick - Google Search




Stuck piston rings are caused by *carbon deposits in the ring grooves*. Hard carbon, a result of poor fuel combustion, virtually cements the rings into the grooves. In the past, the only way to free up stuck piston rings so they seal properly again, was to overhaul the engine.Apr 19, 2021


This is from Valvoline on google.
What happens if the mixing ratios in a 2 stroke engine are incorrect?​
If you put too much oil, it can generate additional carbon build-up, making it difficult to start the engine, blow excessive smoke which is particularly bad for the environment and may (with time) cause the engine to stop operating correctly. But, if you add too little oil, it will (with time) not lubricate the moving internal engine parts or offer the needed engine protection, which will cause wear, friction and overheat, and may damage the engine permanently.






What's the importance of 2 stroke product application and its mixing ratio? - Valvoline


The chamber pack helps dispenses the correct amount of oil required to obtain the required mixing ratio dependent on manufacturer's guidance. The measurement is displayed on the back of the bottle, allowing you to accurately dispense the required volume of oil.



www.valvoline.com





Now you 2 GENIUSES can carry on!

And it's "HEAR" not "HERE"


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 14, 2022)

Oh that's good. You're arguing with a master baker because you read the back of the Betty Crocker box. Where's my popcorn.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

You like scraping CARBON DEPOSITS out of your exhaust port? Keep dumping too much 2 stroke oil in the gas, And always use cheap DINO oil instead of synthetic. LMAO at you GENIUSES!


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## camel2019 (Nov 14, 2022)

If you tune your equipment theirs not extra smoke and guess what it burns just like it would at whatever the factory recommended. but adding a bit more oil to your mix will protect your bearings. It’s obvious that some of you are willing to believe whatever is said to you bc that’s what the factory wants and yes they want to sell you new equipment in a couple years. that’s one of the reasons 50-1 is a recommended mix it’s also one of the reasons Stihl is Stihl recommending their crappy oil.


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## MacAttack (Nov 14, 2022)

This thread is getting good now, lol.

FWIW, my vintage 1961 saw spent about a decade running on straight 40:1 motor oil at 16:1 and the rings look great and not horrible carbon in the exhaust ports.


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## huskihl (Nov 14, 2022)

All we need now is proof from a Wikipedia quote


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Andyshine77 said:


> More oil will not cause more deposits in the ring grooves, in fact the opposite.


Most guys don't understand that much of the deposits in a two cycle come from the gasoline and not the oil.
Running more oil has a solvent effect and it contains detergents that prevent buildup.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> why do rings in an engine stick - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats a diesel piston dumbass.
Try less googling and more doing before you comment on things you know nothing about


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## Tomos770 (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Thats a diesel piston dumbass.


But, but, but.....it is from a 2stroke diesel engine!


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Most guys don't understand that much of the deposits in a two cycle come from the gasoline and not the oil.
> Running more oil has a solvent effect and it contains detergents that prevent buildup.


Show me where you got that information and maybe I would change my mind.


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## sean donato (Nov 14, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> But, but, but.....it is from a 2stroke diesel engine!


Let's keep comparing apples to bricks...


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Thats a diesel piston dumbass.
> Try less googling and more doing before you comment on things you know nothing about


I know exactly what piston that is, I spent the best part of my life changing those on Diesel and gas engines, Genius!


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> But, but, but.....it is from a 2stroke diesel engine!


There are 2 stroke diesel engines, I worked on those too!


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## Tomos770 (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Show me where you got that information and maybe I would change my mind.


Run your saw on Aspen (or similar engineered) fuel......and look at its piston top or sparkplug.....then over time switch to regular pump gas....

And dont forget to report your findings back!


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Thats a diesel piston dumbass.
> Try less googling and more doing before you comment on things you know nothing about


I've rebuilt more engines than most on this forum, I worked in the TRUCK ENGINE Shop at Caterpillar, What Field did you work in?


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Show me where you got that information and maybe I would change my mind.


A Graham Bell discussed this topic years ago. I've been messing around with two-stroke since the 90's and my expiereance matches what Bell talked about.
If you want more track down Jan Thiel, Dave Redzous from PAR or Fritz Overmars.
Lastly, I've lead you to water, now get off your ass and do some real research...not googling. Just like this site there is so much misinformation on Google, you tube, etc that it's about useless.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> A Graham Bell discussed this topic years ago. I've been messing around with two-stroke since the 90's and my expiereance matches what Bell talked about.
> If you want more track down Jan Thiel, Dave Redzous from PAR or Fritz Overmars.
> Lastly, I've lead you to water, no get off your ass and do some real research...not googling. Just like this site there is so much misinformation on Google, you tube, etc that it's about useless.


Where would you like me to RESEARCH this stuff? ON GOOGLE?


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Run your saw on Aspen (or similar engineered) fuel......and look at its piston top or sparkplug.....then over time switch to regular pump gas....
> 
> And dont forget to report your findings back!


Yes, running an alkylate fuel will result in a much cleaner engine.
You have to remember the refining business is all about blending crappy streams with quality streams to hit an absolute *minimum* quality standard. Then you have Reid Vapor Pressure restrictions for evaporative emmissions which really isnt ideal for two strokes at all.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Where would you like me to RESEARCH this stuff? ON GOOGLE?


I've lead you to water...now stop being lazy and go digging. Or just S T F U, admit you don't have a clue and listen to those that do.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I've lead you to water...now stop being lazy and go digging. Or just S T F U, admit you don't have a clue and listen to those that do.


Dig where?


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## sean donato (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> There are 2 stroke diesel engines, I worked on those too!


Stop talking about uniflow engine designs, they have just as little meaning to a loop scavenged 2 stroke conversation as a 4 stroke gas or diesel powered engine.


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## Tomos770 (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You have to remember the refining business is all about blending crappy streams with quality streams to hit an absolute *minimum* quality standard. Then you have Reid Vapor Pressure restrictions for evaporative emmissions which really isnt ideal for two strokes at all.



Here in EU we have (like most probablly you over the pond have them too) standards.....SIST EN 590 cowers gasoline (95/98/100RON)....dont know much about its fine print.... 

But sure pump gas smells horrible in comparison with Aspen fuel(almost no smell) ....get one drop on your shoes....and you smell miles away for two days in a row


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I've rebuilt more engines than most on this forum, I worked in the TRUCK ENGINE Shop at Caterpillar, What Field did you work in?


Oil refining..


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I've rebuilt more engines than most on this forum, I worked in the TRUCK ENGINE Shop at Caterpillar, What Field did you work in?


And those engines have nothing in common with two cycle gasoline engines..


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

All of your posts are either condescending or insulting, Or you coming off as a "Know It All" The telltale signs of a Narcissist. You reply to posts but don't give any evidence? Just Smart remarks.


bwalker said:


> I've lead you to water...now stop being lazy and go digging. Or just S T F U, admit you don't have a clue and listen to those that do.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Oil refining..


A few months ago you said you worked at a Power Generation Plant?


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> All of your posts are either condescending or insulting, Or you coming off as a "Know It All" The telltale signs of a Narcissist. You reply to posts but don't give any evidence? Just Smart remarks.


Stop being a lazy fuq and do your own research! 
Actually dropping the fact your a mechanic in order to bolster credibility in your mind is a narcissistic trait smart guy...


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Stop talking about uniflow engine designs, they have just as little meaning to a loop scavenged 2 stroke conversation as a 4 stroke gas or diesel powered engine.


I was talking about carbon making the rings stick, Carbon will make the rings stick in any internal combustion engine regardless of fuel used. some fuels are worse than others, But introducing too much 2 stroke oil to the fuel will make more CARBON.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> A few months ago you said you worked at a Power Generation Plant?


Done that too and worked in several forms of mining.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I was talking about carbon making the rings stick, Carbon will make the rings stick in any internal combustion engine regardless of fuel used.


What oil ratio you think these were ran at? Wasn't 50:1.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

I didn't mix the fuel.

The exhaust port has been cleaned and since there is no rings on the piston inside of the cylinder, That may have been cleaned too.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I didn't mix the fuel.


What?
See any carbon?


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## sean donato (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I was talking about carbon making the rings stick, Carbon will make the rings stick in any internal combustion engine regardless of fuel used. some fuels are worse than others, But introducing too much 2 stroke oil to the fuel will make more CARBON.


Thats a cart blank statement and does not apply to most of the decent 2 stroke oils out there. Most of your carbon issues is from not tuning the engine correctly in a 2 stroke. Not the oil. This isn't the 70 using 30wt engine oil. Conversely your pictures and what you sited is 4 stroke engines burning motor oil. Which apples the same way to a uniflow 2 stroke.


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## Old-Feller (Nov 14, 2022)

If you talk to the people at your place of employment like you do on this forum then I can see why you have had so many jobs.


sean donato said:


> Thats a cart blank statement and does not apply to most of the decent 2 stroke oils out there. Most of your carbon issues is from not tuning the engine correctly in a 2 stroke. Not the oil. This isn't the 70 using 30wt engine oil. Conversely your pictures and what you sited is 4 stroke engines burning motor oil.


Yes, but I also linked to a Valvoline article about 2 stroke oils, I would never use their 2 stroke oil, But they do know a thing or 2 about oil.


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## sean donato (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> If you talk to the people at your place of employment like you do on this forum then I can see why you have had so many jobs.
> 
> Yes, but I also linked to a Valvoline article about 2 stroke oils, I would never use their 2 stroke oil, But they do know a thing or 2 about oil.


They know about oil, yes. However, Statements like those of valvoline are over generalized, without any substantial evidence of anything. Were basically going off their word, well because they make oil. I don't find much credibility in this. We need to be more specific. Running "extra" oil will not cause carbon fouling if its oil of good quality. If that were true 26-32cc zenoah rc engines would be carbon pigs since they run 25 to 1, vs the weed eater engine that runs on 50 to 1. Your more likely to see the weed eater carbon up from garbage gas and poor tune then the oil that was used, where the zenaoh being used in (mostly) rc Running twice the amount of oil rarely sees the carbon build up. Truthfully there isn't many differences between the two engines. Just like most engines don't really care how much extra oil is ran through them to a point, but those ratios are pretty high till the oil actually degrades the ability to make power.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 14, 2022)

sean donato said:


> They know about oil, yes. However, Statements like those of valvoline are over generalized, without any substantial evidence of anything. Were basically going off their word, well because they make oil. I don't find much credibility in this. We need to be more specific. Running "extra" oil will not cause carbon fouling if its oil of good quality. If that were true 26-32cc zenoah rc engines would be carbon pigs since they run 25 to 1, vs the weed eater engine that runs on 50 to 1. Your more likely to see the weed eater carbon up from garbage gas and poor tune then the oil that was used, where the zenaoh being used in (mostly) rc Running twice the amount of oil rarely sees the carbon build up. Truthfully there isn't many differences between the two engines. Just like most engines don't really care how much extra oil is ran through them to a point, but those ratios are pretty high till the oil actually degrades the ability to make power.


Totally agree ^^

The main difference is those RC engines produce way more power and torque than any *** engine


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> If you talk to the people at your place of employment like you do on this forum then I can see why you have had so many jobs.
> 
> Yes, but I also linked to a Valvoline article about 2 stroke oils, I would never use their 2 stroke oil, But they do know a thing or 2 about oil.


In the industries I have worked plant closures and mine shut downs are a thing.. never had a problem getting good work though. 
And thankfully I don't work with a bunch of morons spouting off old wives tales.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Totally agree ^^
> 
> The main difference is those RC engines produce way more power and torque than any *** engine


Which would stress the oil more and potentially lead to more deposits.


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## sean donato (Nov 14, 2022)

Vintage Engine Repairs said:


> Totally agree ^^
> 
> The main difference is those RC engines produce way more power and torque than any *** engine


Yes very true. A box stock 32cc is around 5hp. 26cc tend to hover around 3.5hp. Porting a good tuned pipe can get you over 7hp easily in the 32 zen engines. Add a reed block and there are claims of 9hp from some guys. (Ive seen no real proof of these numbers, i have seen dyno proven 7hp+.) If you want serious power ALX and Taylor (formerly rc max) have some very impressive "large" bore engines. Bzm, roostertail, esp, and obr are more the 34 and under guys. Very impressive power from small packages.


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## bwalker (Nov 14, 2022)

FWIW one of the cleanest engines I have been inside off was a Ski Doo 800 twin circa 2006. This particular engine used a composite faced single ring piston that would delaminate with high temps and load. Typicly the engine would just loose compression and not fail catastrophically. This would usually happen in less than 1000 miles. From the factory these engines oil injection pump was set very rich. Guys complained about oil consumption and the dealers would dial the pumps down. Mine used the equivalent of 20:1 or greater depending how much I was into the throttle. I left it alone and ran Citgo Sea and Snow because it was FD rated and dirt cheap. I flogged that machine and it never lost compression.
I did end up updating the pistons from single composite ring OEM to dual ring pistons out of a Yamaha watercraft. The factory pistons where immaculate in every way and it was on its original plugs.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Nov 14, 2022)

Yeah I have heard those numbers too, in fact I’m in the middle of building a 2 stroke rc boat. It will start off with a weed eater engine, but plan to put a zenoah 320PUM in it shortly there after!


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## camel2019 (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> I was talking about carbon making the rings stick, Carbon will make the rings stick in any internal combustion engine regardless of fuel used. some fuels are worse than others, But introducing too much 2 stroke oil to the fuel will make more CARBON.


If you tune your equipment there’s no more carbon then running it at 50-1. Crappy fuel and mix oil will build carbon faster then a heavy mix ratio.


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## Kel71 (Nov 14, 2022)

In 20 years when 2 strokes are a thing of the past. The internet will be so boring without threads like this.

Thank God we live when we do. I love the smell of premix in the morning.


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## rogue60 (Nov 14, 2022)

I Identify as a cat  meow meow.


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## Chevboy0167 (Nov 14, 2022)

^^^^^??????


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## rogue60 (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> You like scraping CARBON DEPOSITS out of your exhaust port? Keep dumping too much 2 stroke oil in the gas, And always use cheap DINO oil instead of synthetic. LMAO at you GENIUSES!


You are wrong with such blanket statements and zero experience on the matter. I run DINO oil at 25:1 I get thousands of hrs out of saws never had a carboned up exhaust port ever or gummed up rings. And I haven't had too clean a spark arrester for over 25 years lol


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## SAWMIKAZE (Nov 14, 2022)

Old-Feller said:


> Show me where you got that information and maybe I would change my mind.



Go mix at 32:1 with a good oil, tune accordingly.. and you'll find out..


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## Lawless (Nov 14, 2022)

Y’all notice that 4 gallon Red Armor deal is gone? Glad I got one.


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## jellyroll (Nov 14, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Y’all notice that 4 gallon Red Armor deal is gone? Glad I got one.


I got three gallons of of it laying around so i am good got mine last year.


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## StihlPotlicker (Nov 15, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What oil ratio you think these were ran at? Wasn't 50:1. View attachment 1032186
> View attachment 1032185


I know 300:1


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## sean donato (Nov 15, 2022)

Lawless said:


> Y’all notice that 4 gallon Red Armor deal is gone? Glad I got one.


I think they were selling off old stock, it's still the old label. The newer 4 gallon deal I found has a different label and a steep price tag.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 15, 2022)

Dang. I have zero need of that much two stroke oil, already have enough on hand for a couple decades, at the amount I use. Still halfway wishing I'd jumped on that deal.


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## sean donato (Nov 15, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Dang. I have zero need of that much two stroke oil, already have enough on hand for a couple decades, at the amount I use. Still halfway wishing I'd jumped on that deal.


Heck, thay 4 gallons I just bought got me another 6 ish years depending on how much sawing I do. Recently it's been quite a bit, so I've been going through a lot of mix. Should slow down from the holidays and work opening back up full tilt for candy lane. After then new year I'll have weekends off and I'll be back at scrounging and cutting.


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## bwalker (Nov 15, 2022)

sean donato said:


> I think they were selling off old stock, it's still the old label. The newer 4 gallon deal I found has a different label and a steep price tag.


Local Home Depot still has the old label stuff...still not certain there is any differance.


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## aokpops (Nov 18, 2022)

JRM said:


> A dictionary is an invaluable tool to look up words you don't know. You have one right on your computer.
> 
> I'll give ya a hint, it wasn't an insult.


Thank you


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## aokpops (Nov 18, 2022)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> 1/2 of you would get your ass kicked by a 3rd grater in Inglesh class.


That is very true for me. Not my best subject. About all I can say, and you can break it down. World class athletes almost never make great coaches. This is a baby your saw with love thread. I do tough saw love. About the us ale thread. A few agree someone disagrees gets their carter judge about how good they spell. Just a person that has run chainsaws for over 40 years. The real hard part of reading is reading between the blanks.


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## Dennisthemenace (Nov 19, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Victa Australian made lawn mowers pulled two stroke mowers from it's line up. I remember one of the reasons was no matter how hard they tried they couldn't educate the masses two strokes need oil in the fuel. They were having huge amounts of customers coming back with said new mowers with the totally original line, I put fuel in it and it stopped working I did nothing wrong something must be wrong with it lol


Brings back good memories. We (a cool father actually) used to make mini bikes out of Victa 125s. Running and using the spanners on those things as a 12/13 yr old 50 odd yrs ago has stood me in good stead ever since.


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## Kel71 (Nov 19, 2022)

If you really want to baby your saw.


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