# Big 100+ year old Oak- can it be saved ?



## davidbradley360 (Jul 24, 2012)

This tree has been on a family property since my grandfather first bought it back in the 1930's, and according to a family member, it was just as big then, as it is now. I'm 50 years old and remember at age 5 standing under it getting my picture taken. I measured the circumference of the base yesterday, and it is 18-1/2 feet around, or about 6 feet in diameter. 

It has been pruned over the years by removing dead branches cutting them back to the trunk. At least 10 were removed over the past 65 years. The tree was always had black ants on it as far back as I could remember, so no doubt they had something to do with the tree's demise.

Recently a windstorm broke off one of the 2 major limbs, and when the limb fell, it stripped the bark down the side of the tree. I read this is a common problem with big oaks.

Nonetheless, this tree is still very much alive, and the limb that fell was covered with acorns. It is at least 100 years old, and maybe closer to 200. 

My concern is the inner core is rotted, albeit not to a large diameter of rot. I could have it pruned again by removing the falling limb, and 2 other dead limbs up high in the tree- 

or, I could remove the entire tree.

If I just pruned it as mentioned, what are it's chances of staying standing ? I know most likely that's a moot question, but I've seen trees in this condition stay standing for many years afterwards.

Would you cut it down, or prune and leave it ? The tree is very high at least 40-50 feet or more. It towers over the nearby abandoned vacant farmhouse. The limb that fell, did manage to hit the edge of the house, and damage the roof.

It once had a full even round crown and canopy, but as years went by it lost more and more upper limbs. Regardless the tree is still very much alive.

See pictures. Any advice welcome.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 24, 2012)

here's more

View attachment 246068


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## Tree Pig (Jul 24, 2012)

Again this just a quick opinion from the pics provided but its a structurally compromised tree with what appears ALL of its remaining limbs and trunk in the direction of the house. To me the main thing you have to consider when deciding what to do in a situation like this is asking yourself what can it hit if it fails. In this case it looks like it can hit the house or even someone outside in close proximity to the house. 

Honor the tree by doing something with the wood and replanting something in its place.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 24, 2012)

and a few more

View attachment 246073


View attachment 246074


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 24, 2012)

Tree Pig said:


> Again this just a quick opinion from the pics provided but its a structurally compromised tree with what appears ALL of its remaining limbs and trunk in the direction of the house. To me the main thing you have to consider when deciding what to do in a situation like this is asking yourself what can it hit if it fails. In this case it looks like it can hit the house or even someone outside in close proximity to the house.
> 
> Honor the tree by doing something with the wood and replanting something in its place.




thank you for the informative, well thought out reply. Just an FYI, the building behind it in this picture, is the neighbor's tool shed. but yes it is still within striking distance of the house, if it fell in the direction of the damaged trunk area. The remaining crown and canopy, are facing towards the neighbor's shed general direction.

View attachment 246075


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## Tree Pig (Jul 24, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> thank you for the informative, well thought out reply. Just an FYI, the building behind it in this picture, is the neighbor's too shed. but yes it is still within striking distance of the house, if it fell in the direction of the damaged trunk area. The remaining crown and canopy, are facing towards the neighbor's shed general direction.
> 
> View attachment 246075



Well it just being the shed will decrease the urgency maybe a little but there is still a chance that the tree could fail and damage property or worse hurt someone. With you knowing it is a damaged tree it is possible for your insurance company to then TRY and wash their hands of it saying it was your responsibility to remove it knowing it was damaged. If you want to feel safer see if one of the experienced, honest (someone here you know or get references) tree care people in your area can come take a look.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 24, 2012)

we had it looked at yesterday by a local well experienced tree service with 20 years experience. 

the issue is, first the access driveway to the old farmstead must be cleared, where a cluster of 4 trees fell and blocked the road, see below

opening up this driveway would allow him to access the tree with his large bucket truck

View attachment 246078


View attachment 246079



to open up the driveway and remove the fallen limb from the tree, is $200

to then cut down the remaining tree, is another $500

total $700

we can do the driveway clearing and limb removal ourselves, but I would not attempt to drop that big tree without limbing it first with a bucket truck, so it's a contract job

as you can see, the heavy unusual rainfall and warmer than usual weather last fall and late winter, really did a number on the local trees. It took many of them down.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Jul 24, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> we had it looked at yesterday by a local well experienced tree service with 20 years experience.
> 
> the issue is, first the access driveway to the old farmstead must be cleared, where a cluster of 4 trees fell and blocked the road, see below
> 
> ...



DB, it needs to be cut down, the trunk has been compromised to deem it unsafe....I know its a hard call, been in family for many years, but its structural integrity has been compromised....most of weight leaning toward shed and house, if it goes things will get ugly fast.

$500 to take out a oak with 6ft. trunk is a steal, really?, mabey unless there leaving everything there, cut and run...wow


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## Tobystihl (Jul 24, 2012)

I am afraid the tree needs to come down, that scar will never heal!
What I would suggest is, take the tree down leaving the stump in place and have it carved into a garden seat, this I think would be a fitting memorial to your Grandad. Regards Toby.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 24, 2012)

yes that price is cut up and leave it there, not chipped, and only bucked into sections small enough to facilitate the job of taking it down, and moving it a short distance to pile it- the family will use it for firewood, or perhaps make some outdoor furniture or table tops from the stump wood. 

but it's a damned crying shame....


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 24, 2012)

You can't put a price on sentimental value, but that tree needs to go and for $500 you should be jumping for joy.
Jeff


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## Tree Pig (Jul 24, 2012)

What part of PA I would bet there is a local climber on here that would take that down and save you a few dollars. Not a lot of room but I would bet you can do a little better.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 24, 2012)

Tree Pig said:


> What part of PA I would bet there is a local climber on here that would take that down and save you a few dollars. Not a lot of room but I would bet you can do a little better.



He must be a hungry guy.
Jeff


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## treemandan (Jul 24, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> He must be a hungry guy.
> Jeff



Dam skippy! The Pig just has an overactive imagination. Dat's a big oak tree ! You know what that is?


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## Alex D (Jul 24, 2012)

woodsman44 said:


> DB, it needs to be cut down, the trunk has been compromised to deem it unsafe....I know its a hard call, been in family for many years, but its structural integrity has been compromised....most of weight leaning toward shed and house, if it goes things will get ugly fast.
> 
> $500 to take out a oak with 6ft. trunk is a steal, really?, mabey unless there leaving everything there, cut and run...wow



Yeah it is. A job like that here would run over a grand if you found a small company eg an arborist and 2 or 3 groundies. Now if it was a big company like Davys or something thats a several thousand dollar job. But then again there was a guy in California here who had 2 huge cedars cut down and they charged him 1500 or 750 each.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 24, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Dam skippy! The Pig just has an overactive imagination. Dat's a big oak tree ! You know what that is?



Yeah, that is some man hour's and for $500, that ain't even one guy all day.
Jeff


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## Tree Pig (Jul 24, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Yeah, that is some man hour's and for $500, that ain't even one guy all day.
> Jeff



Maybe I missed understood but I am pretty sure he priced it to just put it on the ground no chipping and no cutting to length other then just putting it on the ground. $500 does not seem off base for that. Tree is not that big. If the DZ is as big as it looks I would bet 2 - 3 hours tops and your on the road.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 24, 2012)

Tree Pig said:


> Maybe I missed understood but I am pretty sure he priced it to just put it on the ground no chipping and no cutting to length other then just putting it on the ground. $500 does not seem off base for that. Tree is not that big. If the DZ is as big as it looks I would bet 2 - 3 hours tops and your on the road.



Yeah, Maybe I read it different. Still, I don't know the region or market there. If it is just like you say, off the pic's I would be more at $800-$1000, no biggie.
Jeff :msp_wink:


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## Carburetorless (Jul 24, 2012)

Remove all the limbs, and leave 10 to 12 feet of the trunk, and make a tree sculpture out of it, like a bear or something.


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## formationrx (Jul 25, 2012)

*...*

sculpture out of it, like a bear or something????

thoughtful carb but that tree is rotten in the middle... its a goner...take it out and plant a new tree... imo jeff and pig are right on in this case... id make something out of the wood thats still viable... maybe a hutch or a few chairs (pass them on to ur kids)... that is a bad tear... it looks like whoever worked it did not do a good job... they opened up the middle too much and did not work the outer sail enough... not reducing the sail properly puts a hell of lot of pressure on that mast (real tree guys work the canopy).... and it looks like that tree decided to let you know...


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## Carburetorless (Jul 25, 2012)

formationrx said:


> sculpture out of it, like a bear or something????
> 
> thoughtful carb but that tree is rotten in the middle... its a goner...take it out and plant a new tree... imo jeff and pig are right on in this case... id make something out of the wood thats still viable... maybe a hutch or a few chairs (pass them on to ur kids)... that is a bad tear... it looks like whoever worked it did not do a good job... they opened up the middle too much and did not work the outer sail enough... not reducing the sail properly puts a hell of lot of pressure on that mast (real tree guys work the canopy).... and it looks like that tree decided to let you know...



I noticed that it looked like it had been topped in the past. Seems it should have been a much taller tree than it is, and healthier too.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

It's the overhead and insurance costs that drove the price of tree cutting up, and also fuel for the saws and trucks. 2 guys on the ground have to get paid a decent wage, and also need to match their SSI deductions, pay their workmens comp, and UC deduction, and the company liability insurance. It all adds up.

And what is left from $500/tree or even $1000/tree, after fuel expenses, and INCOME TAXES.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

formationrx said:


> sculpture out of it, like a bear or something????
> 
> thoughtful carb but that tree is rotten in the middle... its a goner...take it out and plant a new tree... imo jeff and pig are right on in this case... id make something out of the wood thats still viable... maybe a hutch or a few chairs (pass them on to ur kids)... that is a bad tear... it looks like whoever worked it did not do a good job... they opened up the middle too much and did not work the outer sail enough... not reducing the sail properly puts a hell of lot of pressure on that mast (real tree guys work the canopy).... and it looks like that tree decided to let you know...





no one "worked it" much at all. When the tree developed a dead limb, an uncle climbed up there on an aluminum extension ladder, then climbed into the tree with a David Bradley 360 saw, and cut the limb off at the trunk. I remember watching it when I was a kid about 7 years old.

We still have the saw. I put a kit in the carb and it runs well. Damned heavy thing, imagine using that as a climbing saw.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

well the tree is down, started in the morning 8 AM, and finished at noon. The 65 foot boom truck was fully extended to cut the top, and barely was able to do it with a pole saw fully extended as well. That tree was all of 80-85 feet tall at least.

the entire inside of the trunk at the base was hollow, there was barely anything holding it up, and once it was dropped, we could see where the worst cracks were, and how thin it was, the tree was definitely going to fall on the neighbor's shed, most likely this winter, or next windstorm

it was the right thing to remove the tree. The only way that tree could have stayed, was if it was cable anchored to the ground, and also steel banded all the way up the main trunk, to hold it together. 

what happens is, the tree became like like a pack of vertical pencils bunched together, and every time a limb would break, it would have the effect of taking one pencil out- until the entire tree fell over. 

not worth the risk of someone riding a quad, snowmobile, mini bike, or walking past underneath, and it falling on them. I often would metal detect around the tree.

will put up some pictures of the job. I don't feel as badly now that I know, just how badly it was rotted inside- there was barely anything holding it up around the edges. It was a dangerous tree and accident waiting to happen.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

before today 8 AM


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

during the job- 65 foot boom fully extended, and using pole saw to cut the highest tops


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

the bitter end, whittled down to size, and then the main trunk cut down. 

take a good look at the trunk. There was almost nothing left around the edge holding the tree up in several locations. I'm one to always try to save old trees and not want them cut down unless unavoidable- this was a wake up call. Definitely not worth the risk of letting it standing. It was coming down soon with or without help.

That was a nightmare waiting to happen. Fortunately we were able to cut it down before anyone got hurt by it, or any more property damage.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

View attachment 246236


trunk


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## Isna (Jul 25, 2012)

Cutting it was the right choice.
Reminds me when I cut a similar tree for a local town. People saw me cut it and called the newspapers to complain. A reporter came by and took a nice picture of me standing inside the stump (only my head was sticking out!). He then wrote a nice article explaining that this tree was really dangerous. Too bad for the ones who complained! What really annoyed me is that the people complaining never came to ask me why I was cutting the tree. They called the newspapers instead. We all love those old growth trees. Nevertheless, there comes a time when they just need to come down.


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## Oldmaple (Jul 25, 2012)

*Had to go*

Definitely needed to go. Just a comment on the ants. Ants didn't have anything to do with the demise of this tree. Ants are a secondary invader of trees. They mine out wood already compromised by decay organisms and use it for their galleries. Ants are not the organism weakening the tree. Just a pet peeve of mine, get alot of questions on how to get rid of the ants "to save the tree".


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

on the ants, well perhaps...but I know a sawmill operator, who also is a degreed biologist, he took me mover to a large tree on his property, with black ants walking up and down it- and they were depositing chewed up pieces of sawdust at the bottom of the tree. Ants definitely eat away at homes and trees. I had carpenter ants in my garage, and they hollowed out a section of the hard insulation bat in the wall, I removed the insulation section complete like a little ant farm, cut it open and found the queen, and all the small ant eggs. 

yes this tree had to go, I don't feel bad about it, after seeing the condition of the trunk, there was little or nothing that could have been done to save it. The top weighed tons, and the bottom was thin and weak. A very dangerous situation A tree is a big, majestic natural organism, in its home environment of the forest, but growing near your home or yard, if falls, it will kill you without remorse, just the same as a bear or wolf would.

there is a lesson to be learned here, I had always maintained my trees, and removed quite a few smaller ones from my property in the past. I paid to get this large tree pruned a few years ago, and removed a few more branches that were dead. But large trees need to be maintained and checked on a regular 6 month to yearly basis, not just when something breaks and falls off them. There's just too much that can go wrong once they get very large and old. The first big branch that fell, was almost as big as the main trunk. 

When these trees get this old, the trunk should be checked somehow, for rot. If it's hollow, they should be taken down. The mask here was, the tree was still very much alive, the outer growth ring was feeding what was left of the canopy with water and nutrients.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I noticed that it looked like it had been topped in the past. Seems it should have been a much taller tree than it is, and healthier too.




yes it lost the main center of the canopy in a windstorm about 25 years ago. It was a very grand looking, well balanced, picturesque oak tree until about 1985. Then it kept losing limbs on a steady basis until now.

what amazed me was, how much leaves and acorns were on it anyway, even at this age, in this condition. It had a lot of leaves left on it


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2012)

I hope you take pic's of the brush and wood on the ground that you have to clean up! Maybe show several pic's as you progress. Would be interesting.
Jeff


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## Carburetorless (Jul 25, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> yes it lost the main center of the canopy in a windstorm about 25 years ago. It was a very grand looking, well balanced, picturesque oak tree until about 1985. Then it kept losing limbs on a steady basis until now.
> 
> what amazed me was, how much leaves and acorns were on it anyway, even at this age, in this condition. It had a lot of leaves left on it



I used to work for a logging company, and we would come across those huge oaks, they would look solid from the outside, but when you dropped them most were hollow.

Sometimes they'd be full of water like a big tall water tank. I saw one cutter get his gas & oil jugs washed off the side of a mountain by one that full of water. lol


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> I hope you take pic's of the brush and wood on the ground that you have to clean up! Maybe show several pic's as you progress. Would be interesting.
> Jeff




Now that assumption, is what's funny....:msp_biggrin: figures it came from Ca.

I'll post a pic of the map, of the 52 acres we've owned since 1937 that its on, to show that in the country, you don't waste your time cleaning up stuff like that. We have acres of trees like that, that fall on their own on a constant basis.

WTH in their right mind, would go around cleaning that up ? Let the deer eat it.

The family (26 people and their spouses and kids) will take the big stuff for firewood.

Sound snobby ? No. My grandfather was a coal miner, with a 2nd grade education, who never made more than $3000/year, and died from black lung. 

But he knew enough, to GTH away from the city, so he wouldn't have to worry about stuff like that. He bought the place for $3500 back in 1937.

maybe you should worry about cleaning up around your own trees, on what property you own.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 25, 2012)

Carburetorless said:


> I used to work for a logging company, and we would come across those huge oaks, they would look solid from the outside, but when you dropped them most were hollow.
> 
> Sometimes they'd be full of water like a big tall water tank. I saw one cutter get his gas & oil jugs washed off the side of a mountain by one that full of water. lol



yeh it was a big eye opener for me too. I'd never live next to one of those trees without getting it checked first, by that I mean some sort of sonic testing, or core sample. Imagine that thing standing outside next to your kid's bedroom window. What an ugly monster it would turn out to be, if it fell on your house and killed somebody. A tree will kill without remorse, just like a bear or wolf. They are majestic beautiful things to behold out in nature in the forest.

but not rotted, hollow, and next to your house.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> Now that assumption, is what's funny....:msp_biggrin: figures it came from Ca.
> 
> I'll post a pic of the map, of the 52 acres we've owned since 1937 that its on, to show that in the country, you don't waste your time cleaning up stuff like that. We have acres of trees like that, that fall on their own on a constant basis.
> 
> ...



Like I said, I don't know the market there, but now I understand. I have seen a few of those crazy reality show's. Out here, we worry about fire hazard's, like downed tree's and brush!
Jeff :msp_rolleyes:


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 25, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> maybe you should worry about cleaning up around your own trees, on what property you own.



No worry here, we are fine!
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 26, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> No worry here, we are fine!
> Jeff :msp_tongue:



no worry, except for brush and firewood laying on someone else's property, you found it "interesting". 

judging from your post history and comments on what OP should do with their trees and property, you're right on que and up to par on this thread as well.

amazing, an actual tree care net troll- who woulda' known ?

do you have a large spread of acreage with standing timber in San Diego ?


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## sgreanbeans (Jul 26, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> Ants definitely eat away at homes and trees.


 Maybe homes, but not trees. Ants live in the tree and go out for food. What you see on the ground is just a little house keeping. Termites live away from trees and go to them for food. Why they hate each other. Ants view them as a threat to the colony when the termites start eating on their home. When you look inside of a rotten tree and see all the little holes, the ants are not causing the rot, they are just making use of the softer wood, borrowing in to make more nursery's. Their colony will use every bit of space they can, up to the boundary set by compartmentalization. U will never find where a ant has pushed thru the boundary into good wood. If u think u have, look closer, its not a ant.


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## davidbradley360 (Jul 26, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> Maybe homes, but not trees. .




I stood and visibly watched black carpenter ants removing a tree's inside pulp, bit by bit, and depositing it at the bottom of the tree. The guy that showed it to me, is 55 years old, has owned a sawmill for 35 years, and is a degreed biologist. The ants will eat rotted wood but also live wood to expand their space. The tree they were eating was alive at the time.

another time, I was in the back yard, when a tree in the lot next door came crashing down with a big noise. It wasn't a very large tree, but at the base where it snapped and fell, was covered with ants crawling all over it.

I'd say ants have a pretty heavy hand in tree destruction. Eating the wood, or tunneling through the wood to find other food, the end result is the same, we're splitting hairs here- they destroy the structural integrity of homes, and trees.


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## Carburetorless (Jul 26, 2012)

davidbradley360 said:


> yeh it was a big eye opener for me too. I'd never live next to one of those trees without getting it checked first, by that I mean some sort of sonic testing, or core sample. Imagine that thing standing outside next to your kid's bedroom window. What an ugly monster it would turn out to be, if it fell on your house and killed somebody. A tree will kill without remorse, just like a bear or wolf. They are majestic beautiful things to behold out in nature in the forest.
> 
> but not rotted, hollow, and next to your house.



The top coming out of it is likely what lead to it's demise. Yet there are people who top trees deliberately, I saw a yellow page add the other day for a tree service in Kentucky called "Tree Toppers" tree service.


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## Toddppm (Jul 26, 2012)

Yeah there was no saving that tree with any kind of pruning. 





Just curious why the home was abandoned? Looked like a cool old place and on alot of land. Sounds like you have a lot of family in the area too. 
Too bad the house got nailed, probably won't recover from that hit, don't guess you had insurance on the place?


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## no tree to big (Jul 26, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> No worry here, we are fine!
> Jeff :msp_tongue:



you need to stop being such a bully especially in the 101:msp_rolleyes:



davidbradley360 said:


> I stood and visibly watched black carpenter ants removing a tree's inside pulp, bit by bit, and depositing it at the bottom of the tree. The guy that showed it to me, is 55 years old, has owned a sawmill for 35 years, and is a degreed biologist. The ants will eat rotted wood but also live wood to expand their space. The tree they were eating was alive at the time.
> 
> another time, I was in the back yard, when a tree in the lot next door came crashing down with a big noise. It wasn't a very large tree, but at the base where it snapped and fell, was covered with ants crawling all over it.
> 
> I'd say ants have a pretty heavy hand in tree destruction. Eating the wood, or tunneling through the wood to find other food, the end result is the same, we're splitting hairs here- they destroy the structural integrity of homes, and trees.


the ants were probably removing the softer rotten wood...


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 26, 2012)

no tree to big said:


> you need to stop being such a bully especially in the 101:msp_rolleyes:



Don't think I was, can you quote me where I was. :msp_tongue:
Jeff :msp_confused:


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## Tree Pig (Jul 26, 2012)

So DB you in the Scranton area?


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## sgreanbeans (Jul 28, 2012)

Yeah.........uh, hmmm, that would be a big negative on the ants eating live wood. There are many studies done on this. MANY. If that where the case, all trees would be toast. They are making use of and disposing of the soft material that is already starting to rot. They dont want to kill the tree, its their home.


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## Oldmaple (Jul 28, 2012)

One more post on ants/termites. Ants do not tunnel into solid wood, only wood that has been softened by decay organisms. If they did tunnel in solid wood you would see them in solid trees occasionally. You will see trees with decay and no ants, decay and ants together, but never ant galleries and no decay. You will see "sawdust" at the base of trees with ants in them. Ants do not eat and digest wood fibers, they move wood out to make room in the galleries and let it fall where it may. Termites on the other hand eat and digest wood fibers. Here in the north we have only subterranean termites. I don't believe they consume live wood. They will consume wood if they can access it because it is in contact with the ground or they build mud tubes to it. In the south they have other types (Formosan, maybe more) which don't have to stay in the ground. I don't know that much about them other than they have huge problems with them. It is my understanding that ant galleries in structures are in an area that has had past moisture problems (a leaky roof, window/door flashing, or repeated condensation problems). You could probably get more information on this on a pest control forum.


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