# Man dies while trimming tree.12-18-03



## Davidsinatree (Dec 23, 2003)

Kansas Citys local news reported a tree trimmer had died thursday afternoon in Wichita,KS.
I had to wait for the library to get a copy of the ''Wichita Eagle'' news paper to get more info. I did a search on there web site but it looks like they charge a fee to read there articals.
This is how the articl reads from the Wichita Eagle.

MAN DIES WHILE TRIMMING TREE ON NORTH HYDRAULIC
A 42 year old Wichita man died thursday afternoon in a tree trimming accident. It appears the man was a self employed contractor who was trimming an elm tree in the back yard of a home, Wichita fire captain ***** said.
The man was working about 15' up in the tree when a 40' branch he was cutting fell on him, pinning him in a fork in the tree.
The branch weighed about 1000#, fire captain said.
The man had already died ,likely from internal injuries, when rescuers arrived at the home shortly after 5 pm.
The man was working alone, and it appears nobody witnessed the accident, fire captain said.

This is all that was printed on 12-19-03.
The mans name was not reported. And I left out the fire captains name.

I wish there were more details on this accident so we could learn more about working safe. 
I do wish his family the best.


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## tophopper (Dec 24, 2003)

Rocky, 
I do agree working alone is a bad idea and potentially dangerous, but have some compassion, you automatically assume this guy was unqualified or and idiot. dont get me wrong he very well could have been unqualfied or not.

You've never dropped out a 40' lead from at tree at 15 ft? 

I dont understand exactly how this lead could have fell on him, unless he used poor cutting techniques, my point, lighten up while most accidents can be prevented they do happen. Even to qualified and trained people


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 2, 2004)

As such, working alone is not a bad thing. It depends on the personality of the individual. Some persons abhor others around them while working, regardless the job. They believe it to be a distraction and therefore an accident waiting to happen. This is just the way they work and don't feel they need to appologize for it. They understand the consequences and weigh them. Fear is our worst enemy and a coward dies many deaths.
There is are several things that can fell a man, inexperience, fatigue, being driven, plain stupidity and most of all, but never talked about is emotional poise. This comes under the heading of mental distraction, such as when ones mind is preoccupied with such things as marital or family discord, financial difficulties, death or ill heath in the family and the list goes on.
So as we can see all the safety equipment in the world and back up crew, isn't going to save one against oneself.
If we can't tolerate our own company, then who's fault is that?
With a song in your heart and one positive thought occupying your mind you are relatively impervious.
John


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## Typhoon (Jan 2, 2004)

I relate well with Gypo's opinion. Although some don't like to work alone, I actually do work well alone. I think it's all about a state of mind. I have done alot of things in my life, a pilot, motocross racing, rock climbing, scuba diving, felling trees, and much more. I have found that if I am well rested, in the right state of mind, and use the brain god gave me, I will be cutting edge. Accidents happen, nothing can prevent that. Thats why they call them accidents. But most of them sure can be avoided if you use your head. Carelessness, fatigue, and lack of knowledge are your worst enemies. It is possible that this guy was a professional.. who knows. Accidents happen to the best of us. He will be in my prayers.


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## Eagle1 (Jan 3, 2004)

Rocky J-
Insensitive Jerk (ALIVE insensitive jerk) [/B][/QUOTE]

Every dog has its day.


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## NeTree (Jan 3, 2004)

Sorry guys- I'm with Rocky on this one.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Sorry guys- I'm with Rocky on this one. *



Erik, that's because bot you and brian jump to conclusions feet first. 

Accidents can happen to professionals too.

Instead of just saying that you think he was operating with limited skills, why not eloborate on what draws you to that conclusion, aside form working alone. I know a number of competant people who do that.


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## Keener (Jan 3, 2004)

Just a thought.
What if the climber decided that he could just flop one or both leads so he climbs to the main fork (at 15') and thinking he can use the face cut angle plus maybe a dash of snap cut, he thinks he can jump the lead horizontal on impact.
A little sloppy on the face, flaw in the holding wood or gust of wind and the lead hits tip first and flops the butt end right into the fork on top of him.
Perhaps if he took the time to consider "what is the worst outcome possible in this situation" he would have taken a different approach.
Bottom line, we can all make the "yellow light" decisions that don't work out that one time in 100.
No excuses, just a thought.


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## Keener (Jan 3, 2004)

One reason I can see for being reluctant to go higher is the tree was dead and he decided "crap that looks rotten, I'm not going any higher" on this assumption he decides the lead will shatter when it hits the ground and regrettably it does not.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Keener _
> *
> Perhaps if he took the time to consider "what is the worst outcome possible in this situation" he would have taken a different approach.
> *





There ya go, Eh?

I do that instinctively all the time.

It's SOP with me.


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## NeTree (Jan 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *
> why not eloborate on what draws you to that conclusion, aside form working alone.
> 
> I know a number of competant people who do that. *



Actually John, I don't think ANY competent person works alone.

That aside, I can't envision any situation where dropping 40' of lead at 15' would be necessary. If you don't have the right tools and training, you shouldn't be doing the work. (Not to say this guy had neither... who knows?)

I don't jump to conclusions... I make observations based on the data given and relate that to my experience.

Frankly, the dissection of others' mistakes helps keep US from making the same ones. I think that's the best use of this forum, not just to boo-hoo and cry and say what great guys they were.

Don't confuse clinical analysis with not caring that someone lost their life. We come here and tell a group of relative strangers about how we screwed up... and discuss what we did wrong...and then (hopefully) prevent the next guy from doing the same thing wrong.

We do these things because we VALUE lives, not because we are trying to degrade the value of someone else losing theirs.

As I said before, we are a big famliy... a dysfuntional one at times, but I hate to see members of my family get hurt- even people I may not apparantly care for much.


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## Eagle1 (Jan 3, 2004)

Erik,
Nice touch. Well put.

Sure we can feel sorry for the poor guy. But what was he thinking? He sure didn't desirve to die but some homeowners either are to cheap for a pro-arborist or are the sh** lucky guys that get away with all kinds of dangerous around the house stuff. (plumbing/gas/elect.)
Now he is a statistic to that type of man/homeowner.
To bad, didn't sound like a good way to go.


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## geofore (Jan 3, 2004)

*death/trees/news*

The bad thing about news reports like this, it's not really news because it contains too few facts. Sounds like sensationalism to sell papers. The bad cut/notch theory works. 
A barberchair works but not so common in elm, more common in white ash. The tree is green, tip of the limb hits the ground first, the weight of the limb loads the branch and it recoils back into the tree traping him. He is at 15' and the limb is 40' long, long enough to kick back and crush him. Then there is the really bad cut and the limb slides back off the cut on top of him before it tips over toward the ground. No snap, no jump, just slides backwards. The bad cut or wind twists the limb and it comes back on him as it twists instead of falling the other way. I too wonder why he did not climb higher, could it have been he had no PPE, no ropes and had to stand in the croutch to keep his balance?
We are left guessing and a tree guy has died. If you don't learn from mistakes you are doomed to repeat them if you live that long. Tree work is dangerous and the report does not even say if he was wearing his PPE. Worst of all, no one there to call 911, work a rope for him or witness what went wrong.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 3, 2004)

Not enough info.

We can speculate all day.


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## Eagle1 (Jan 3, 2004)

Again MB...right on


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## chainsawworld (Jan 4, 2004)

exactly, not enough info. 
was he tied to the butt of the leader he was cutting? sounds like he even may have been tied to the leader it self. was he tied above the knotch in the leader next to him.? 
the safest conclusion here is he should not have been working alone. it is not safe for anyone doing tree work to work alone. 
an acccident is an event or events unforeseen by any of the participants. even with the intense training i give accidents are not eliminated, simply reduced. 
john, i am not picking on you but in the pictures you post and the stories you tell(no safety gear and working alone for example) it is just a matter of time before you get hurt.
it is just to easy to get dead in this line of work. be careful !!!!!
marty


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 4, 2004)

Now this is more of what I envisioned starting this forum.

Just to say he was stupid and untrained lends nothing. It is also neither analysis or discetion.

Speculation is a good thing, Geo's senario is what I see as most probable. 

Heck I've jumped huge wood off when I have the room and customers blessing to divot. 60ft tree 40 ft of room take a 30 ft top. Just make sure it separates early.


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## NeTree (Jan 4, 2004)

...sounds like Rocky's looking for some wabbit stew....


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## geofore (Jan 4, 2004)

*Accident/death*

Rocky, don't kill the messenger, give a better explaination of what can go wrong in one post instead of 4 posts. Don't just say bad cut, lack of PPE or homeownner in tree. Elaborate on what it is that can go wrong. I've had a green limb climb back up (recoil) and pin my leg to the trunk, put a crack in my shin bone. Greenstick is what the doc called it, looked like a crack on the x-ray. I pulled my leg up, I thought out of the way, just in time to get it pinned. 
I knew what you were saying but would anyone who doesn't do a lot of tree work know? You presume they would, I don't think the new guys would. I've seen over the past 35 years, everything I wrote happen to me or someone else a new guy would not have had enough time on the job to have seen all that.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 6, 2004)

I am not ripping or complimenting anyone.


What i am trying to do is keep this forum a place of thoughtful, constructive dialog.






> Well excuse me for not phrasing myself like Geofore, even though we said the same thing!



I disagree.

All we are asking is that people be a bit less negative and a bit more thoughtfull inntheir posting on this forum

And yes, more respectful of the dead.

Mr. Moderator.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 7, 2004)

Tree climbing and logging are probably about as dangerous as being a Brinks Gaurd.
Who know's what happened to our befallen cohort, but I bet his mind wasn't on the job.
We must be comfortable with our surroundings and what we are doing.
Everything in life is a calculated risk, whether it's marriage or simply walking across a busy intersection, but we don't let the risks cloud or mind or take the fun out of it.
There are people out there that will jump into a shark tank with no defence but their wits and their knowledge of the mammal, however , you couldn't catch me in a shark tank unless I was in an impervious cage.
My whole point is we can't log or climb from a cage, rather, we pay our money and we take our chances and learn as we go and develope as many angles of escape as possible that suites ones disposition. Knowing full well what can happen and a healthy respect is what keeps us alive. Not to mention that it's either in your blood or it's not. If it's not, then we should get out of the business.
John


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## Hemlock (Jan 7, 2004)

What makes this one difficult for me to figure out is the guys age. A little too long in the tooth to be trying a move like that with little or no experience. I've seen alot of younger men with ignorance, lack of training, something to prove, showing off, or a pretty strong delusion of invincibility (speaking from first hand experience on all accounts), that might get into this kind of accident. Sure wish I knew why he decided to make that move.


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## Dan F (Jan 7, 2004)

Hemlock-
I can understand the age thing. Quite simply, he probably didn't know any better.

We used a local "hack" in September to do some clearing for us. He was telling my boss and I about cutting chunks off of a fallen tree while sitting on the log. Made no mention of any kind of safety gear while doing this. I can't remember exactly what he described, but I do remember thinking at the time that he probably could have found a safer way. This is a guy who has been in business for quite a while, and is close to the age of the man who got this whole thread started. Heck, I'd be surprised if the local guy had a harness/lanyard to use in his bucket truck. I doubt he climbs with a rope (I'd be EXTREMELY surprised if he did), and I doubt he does much off of spikes. 

Anyway, my point is that age really has no relation to the accident. Darwin award winners come in all ages.


Dan


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## Hemlock (Jan 7, 2004)

Yeah, there's always that Dan. We had a snow storm up here followed by freezing rain and from what I could see the older drivers were trying thier best not to spinout and the kids were trying thier best to spin out! I've found that people who have been in or around serious accidents have a healthy fear for anything that can take them out of the drivers seat in a heartbeat and put them on a stretcher. It is indeed a terrible feeling to lose control when the stakes are so high. A man might not get a do-over. 
One of the things that I noticed right off as a newby to this forum is how sincere most arborists are about safety. Alot of people you work with talk a good show but that's only because they think it's "politically correct". I can understand when a guy loses his temper and I have seen a few men grieve this way when a man was hurt bad or died in an accident. I guess my point is that I'm glad for this forum because other dangerous occupations don't have anywhere to hash things out and have to settle with the old "thats the way it goes, when yer numbers up.. yer numbers up".... I'm gonna remember this discussion.


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## RescueMan (Jan 24, 2004)

*What happened to American self-reliance?*

As someone who is NOT a professional tree-climber, I found it interesting to hear some of you speak disparagingly about the possibility that this was a home-owner doing work that he should have hired a pro to do.

I hear this attitude in all professional fields: the MD disapproves of a patient taking herbal self-help remedies, the psychologist considers family- or community-based counselling to be amateurish and ineffective , the plumbers trade organizations get laws passed making it illegal for a homeowner to do their own plumbing repairs...

It's easy to forget that this nation was built by self-reliant men and women who did EVERYTHING for themselves, or traded their skills for those of their neighbors. Nowadays every professional is self-protective of their "turf".

I like to see people at least getting the training or advice to do things properly and safely, but everyone has the right to do their own work - whether it's because they can't afford to hire a pro or because they simply want the satisfaction of doing it themselves -and everyone who does needs to accept the possible consequences of their decisions and actions.

- Robert


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 24, 2004)

What does the rock comunity say about day trippers who get caught out on a ledge? Or knock debris down pitch or any number of stupid human tricks that proper training may have avoided.

I do not agree with the negativity used for it's own sake, but we all have seen people enguaged in activites where they are getting in over their heads. Where luck is a bigger factor in survival then forethought.

I've stopped and finnished jobs for a nominal amount on some occasions.


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## RescueMan (Jan 24, 2004)

The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is not people doing foolish things that impact on themselves (that's called thinning of the herd - the Darwin thing), but people doing foolish things that impact on others.

The rescue community is starting to shift gears now that more fools are out-and-about and is beginning to charge for the cost of rescues necessitated by unprepared people going beyond their comfort zone, while serving for free those who are simply the victims of bad luck. Alaska has been billing rescue costs on Denali (Mt. McKinley) for some time, and NH Fish & Game has begun charging in the White Mountains for foolish mistakes (the money they collect is distributed to the volunteer SAR teams who do the grunt work). So far, all those who were billed in NH have been glad to pay for being alive and the media attention might discourage others from making similar mistakes.

- Robert


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## Eagle1 (Jan 24, 2004)

Very nooble of you to say those kind words about the "American Way". Unfortunitly the man made a life changing decision to do what sounds like a difficult tree job. All the posts regarding the fact that he didn't hire someone dosen't mean that we all are high and mighty. It means that we do tree work everyday, all day. Some of us are arborists, training, years of experience, etc. So, that being said, I (we) think he bad a bad judgement call performing a large leader takedown.

We all make mistakes.

I have a herniated disk in my neck. I am not going to cut myself open and attempt to fix it.


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## wiley_p (Jan 24, 2004)

I'm wondering one thing, does everyone who points out the hazard of working alone really understand whats involved? I am against anyone working alone, for one reason it takes a lot of commitment mentally as well as physically. I do it frequently, but I do everything I can to be successful, and am very aware of the chance that something may go wrong, and a small accident can be fatal. My job has risks, every day we all plan, execute and cleanup. Some jobs require that some tasks may be undertaken solo.(someone always knows where I am and what I,m doing.) Tomorrow for instance(if its not blowing) I'm going to move my rigging to another tree Doesnt require anyone on the ground smoking cigs and watching me move.


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## NeTree (Jan 24, 2004)

Ditto.

Wanna know how many guys I've seen buried in my day?


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## wiley_p (Jan 24, 2004)

Rocky, do you really never climb alone consult, cable anything?


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## wiley_p (Jan 24, 2004)

Yes, its not the best gig, but we undertake so many things with 2 strikes against us and pull it off, due to experience, and skillset. I'm no advocate for working alone but I can make my own decisions for me with a full understanding of the consequences. There is a chance that someone some day will say " idiot shouldn't have been working alone" but not if I keep my s... together. simple as that. I'm not in the situation that som e are theres things that need to get done that wont up and do themselves.


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## Eagle1 (Jan 25, 2004)

> At least they will know the secret code for 911 if necessary.



Secret code? Is 911 a secret?


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## geofore (Jan 25, 2004)

*alone*

Wiley-p, read chainsaw death, Brenan was working alone and his friend knew where he was going to be. He lost his life working alone, doing what he had done many times before, cutting firewood. By the time he was missed and his friend was asked to go looking for him it was too late. I would think any onlooker that could dial 911 would have been better than none. 
If you fall out of a tree and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2004)

Umm, Brian was being sarcastic???

For most jobs, I will not work alone. Sometimes I have when it is simple work. I'ts not just the safety aspect, but the efficiency. If my rope gets fouled, saw dropped, I want something from the truck I did not think i needed at first....


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## wiley_p (Jan 25, 2004)

Yes geofore I read the first post and it would seem, and I'm not being cruel here but it seemed that there were several decisions that were made by the deceased that were far more serious than working alone. Let's not forget although it may be possible that some freak thing occured but regardless the individual made a mistake that if someone would have been there, they would have had to call 911. So the fact that he was working alone is moot as far as I'm concerned, I dont make choices in this line of work with my "ace in the hole" being the fact that someone is there to see trauma live and calling 911. Don't you see.


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## 2 Guys With Saw (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *My first guess:
> He wasn't qualified or equipped to climb the tree safely, most likely a 'ladder high' tree service. He cut a 40' lead from 15' up in the tree? Doesn't sound like a climber to me. Another lawn man trying to do something he doesn't understand. These stories need to be publicised more so homeowners hire QUALIFIED people.
> 
> Second point- Never work alone. Even if the groundman cannot drag brush, I want someone around who knows the secret code for 911 if necessary. You don't dive alone and you don't climb alone. Words to LIVE by. *



I agree you should have someone on the graound when in a tree. However reality is that it is not always possible and the job still needs to be done. With the proper training and safetys in place it is no different than having a groundsman. I too have done some diving alone and am a certified P.A.D.I openwater diver, this is reality.


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## igetbisy (Jan 27, 2004)

Groundman? whats that, i dont want anybody on the ground for christ sakes!, I'm about to drop a 1000# peice of wood there, stay out of the way.
sorry to joke about the unfortunate fella, I'm really just in a joking mood reading all of the posts arguing about something that there's not enough info about to draw conclusion anyway. 
lets just throw in some "let's suppose"'s or something, lets suppose he was a pro. 

"FIGHT"


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## murphy4trees (Jan 29, 2004)

I'll one up that... I like to see at least two people on the ground for most climbing situations... That extra set of eyeballs can prevent a miscommunication leading to disaster..


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## Eagle1 (Jan 30, 2004)

> I'm about to drop a 1000# peice of wood there, stay out of the way.




I hope for Gods sake that there is no lawn under the tree, or sod, or an irrigation system. If you had a ground man you could cut that in fours and lower the pieces. No mess on the gound, less work for you, and you save the integrity of the Earth below.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 30, 2004)

I can't believe how the ground crews I deal with so casually walk under the crane load. I yell at them to get out from under it, but the just look at me like I'm stupid.
It's like they think straps or cranes NEVER fail. And tag lines on the load? They don't know what that is, or they say it takes too long to 'do it'.
They take twice as long loading logs with straps, instead of using sharp tongs. But I guess thats because they like to hang out under the load and watch the log spin. They wouldn't feel as 'safe' using tongs, I suppose.
I look down and watch them, and long for the days when I worked with a GOOD CREW.
Oh well, thats why I get in and get out as fast as possible, and leave them to their ways. Stupid crap like that is exactly why I'm a prima donna climber. I would break someones neck if I had to hang out with them all day!  






Eagle1, I drop thousand pound plus logs on lawns all the time. It all depends on the particular job. Some you can, and some you can't.


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## Eagle1 (Jan 30, 2004)

Wow...$100.00 tip !! You must have REALLY impressed them. That is neat-o


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