# ever heard of cutting the top half of a tree down?



## voxac30dude (Oct 5, 2009)

this guy wants to hire me my friend who is a 20 year Arborist to cut a tree in half. personally i think it's weird. the tree is perfectly healthy but the home owner says it's too tall(50 feet). he wants us to climb up into the tree and cut from the top down about 20 feet. have any of you guys ever done this? wouldent it look weird with a flat stump left on the top? please chime in thanks.


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## voxac30dude (Oct 5, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I ususally remove the bottom 20 feet and leave the top. Makes it easier to cut the lawn with no trunk to trim around.
> 
> 
> 
> /



hahahaha.


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## scotclayshooter (Oct 5, 2009)

Yep it looks real bad they do it here now and then as well


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## Marty B (Oct 5, 2009)

*Pollard*

The only trees that I have seen cut in half as a common practice are Mulberry, Sycamore, Crape myrtle, and Cherry.


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## ozzy42 (Oct 5, 2009)

We have a lot of seniors here who think that is the only way to make a tree "safe" ,at least to them.
I try to talk them out of it ,telling them" it will harm the tree,it will grow back worse than before, etc,etc."
Some will listen ,some won't.

Some tell me they will be dead by time it becomes a problem again,and they don't care.
At that point ,I do whatever they want to do .
It is after all,,,their tree.

But it has been debated on here quite a bit ,and there are plenty who will disagree with me ,but nobody chimed in yet,so I figured I would give you my 
.02 worth.

edit: In some cities here it is illegal to remove a canopy from certain trees.
check with the regs where you are.


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## voxac30dude (Oct 5, 2009)

anyone have pics of a tree cut like this? i cant find any. thanks.


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## Plasmech (Oct 6, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I ususally remove the bottom 20 feet and leave the top. Makes it easier to cut the lawn with no trunk to trim around.
> 
> 
> 
> /



OK I have to admit, this made me chuckle.


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## arbor pro (Oct 6, 2009)

It's called 'topping' and yes, it looks bad and is also bad for the health and safety of the tree. I attached an image from the web. Just do a web search on 'tree topping' and you should find plenty of information on why it is widely accepted as a bad practice in arboriculture.


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## dave066 (Oct 6, 2009)

*glasgow va*

there are alot of these in this area. most die due to the half cutters in the area


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## voxac30dude (Oct 6, 2009)

oh man! YUCK! those are some of the most hideous topped trees i have ever seen. gosh i sure hope i can talk him outta "topping" this tree. if not then hey it's money and his property so, oh well. get'r done!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 6, 2009)

http://images.google.com/images?q=tree topping


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## dingeryote (Oct 6, 2009)

Head over to the "Chainsaw" section for the oregon bar question...

I dunno what is worse. Topped tree's or the mentality that creates them.

The local Asplundh crews have taken to topping trees under power lines in folks front yards instead of simply asking the owner if removal would be preferred.

There's some REALLY ticked off folks here because of it.

It looks like crap, and nobody gets any decent firewood.
Folks would rather just have the things removed so they end up taking 'em down anyway.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## afblue (Oct 6, 2009)

The power company is notorious for it, they cut the branches as they see fit whether it benefits the tree or not. Maybe talk him into pruning the tree down so at least it has some shape to it, and wont look ugly as sin? But I am not an arborist....


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## capetrees (Oct 6, 2009)

Before you turn away the job, what kind of tree is it? I just re-topped some pines in my area and they are really thick and healthy, we topped them three years ago and they grew back. Some trees are unaffected by topping, others are devistated.


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## chipmaker29 (Oct 6, 2009)

that is a common practice around where i live especially with maples. i hate it and i can promise ya trees "topped" will go into shock & more than likely die as a result. i have done this type of thing for customers in the past but i try my very best to talk them outta of doin it. it does seem like older clients prefer this option and idk why but there are some that will not listen & always think they know more than you about what is good for their trees..lol


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 6, 2009)

Worded that way, it almost conveys topping.

Does he have any reason for even keeping it?


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## Dalmatian90 (Oct 6, 2009)

Capetrees, just curious given your area if the "pines" were pitch pines? I wonder if they respond well to something like that because they evolved in a fire prone ecology that would hit them hard periodically.


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## capetrees (Oct 6, 2009)

You are correct. We top them off mostly for views to the ocean and bay. So long as the lower greenery is still present, the tree actually becomes more dense, and grows laterally more than tall.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 7, 2009)

git-r-done

git-paid

 have a cold one.........






afblue said:


> The power company is notorious for it, they cut the branches as they see fit whether it benefits the tree or not. Maybe talk him into pruning the tree down so at least it has some shape to it, and wont look ugly as sin? But I am not an arborist....


Have you ever seen what happens when a tree is allowed to grow under and or through high voltage lines (because the owner refuses to let the utility company remove it) and some kid climbs the tree, it looks something like this (WARNING THIS IS GRAPHIC) but with a tree involved


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## dave066 (Oct 7, 2009)

capetrees said:


> You are correct. We top them off mostly for views to the ocean and bay. So long as the lower greenery is still present, the tree actually becomes more dense, and grows laterally more than tall.



Any that servive that I seen end up with 10 to 50 leads,going staight up with very little thickness to the leads but keep going straight up


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 7, 2009)

dave066 said:


> Any that servive that I seen end up with 10 to 50 leads,going staight up with very little thickness to the leads but keep going straight up



I wonder how badly it affects the tree if one was simply to keep pruning these sprouts every few years to keep the tree at a "safe" height. I trim a few hemlock "hedges" every few years to keep them in shape, taking a few feet out the top and shearing the sides for a uniform wall. I understand it's not the best thing for the tree but they still seem healthy and it's what the HO wants.


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## dave066 (Oct 7, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I wonder how badly it affects the tree if one was simply to keep pruning these sprouts every few years to keep the tree at a "safe" height. I trim a few hemlock "hedges" every few years to keep them in shape, taking a few feet out the top and shearing the sides for a uniform wall. I understand it's not the best thing for the tree but they still seem healthy and it's what the HO wants.



And at the same time the majority (tops a tree) and then lets it grow untill its time for its removal because they don't want to deal with it over and over failing to relize its a life time commitment to have trees in your yard.


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## ozzy42 (Oct 7, 2009)

dave066 said:


> And at the same time the majority (tops a tree) and then lets it grow untill its time for its removal because they don't want to deal with it over and over failing to relize its a life time commitment to have trees in your yard.



Yep ,that happens a lot here.

It doesn't bother me too much when it's done to one of the many invasive-non-native trees.
Hate to see it done to a native live,or water oak though.


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 7, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> Yep ,that happens a lot here.
> 
> It doesn't bother me too much when it's done to one of the many invasive-non-native trees.
> Hate to see it done to a native live,or water oak though.



I think that's the difference. A lot of trees can handle harsh pruning but the HO needs to be informed that this will have to be treated on a regular basis or the tree will become more dangerous than it was before the initial cutting. If a 80 foot silver maple is 50 feet from your house I can't see why reducing it to a 50 foot silver maple and a strict pruning regimen would be out of the question. The danger to structures is eliminated and the HO gets to keep their tree.


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## outofmytree (Oct 7, 2009)

> Some trees are unaffected by topping, others are devistated.



Cape means well but this statement isn't quite correct. No tree is "unaffected" by topping. Indiscriminate internodal pruning ALWAYS harms a tree. Some just don't show it as soon as others. Whenever I am asked to do this sort of thing, as I was about 3 hours ago, I explain why this doesnt help the tree or the HO. If they insist on topping the tree I walk away as I did 2 hrs and 45 minutes ago.

We all have to choose on this sort of job whether to take the money or take a stand. I can assure you that the latter is profitable. It is amazing how many people look at you with new respect when you say "no, I will not lower my standards for money".


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## arbor pro (Oct 7, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Cape means well but this statement isn't quite correct. No tree is "unaffected" by topping. Indiscriminate internodal pruning ALWAYS harms a tree. Some just don't show it as soon as others. Whenever I am asked to do this sort of thing, as I was about 3 hours ago, I explain why this doesnt help the tree or the HO. If they insist on topping the tree I walk away as I did 2 hrs and 45 minutes ago.
> 
> We all have to choose on this sort of job whether to take the money or take a stand. I can assure you that the latter is profitable. It is amazing how many people look at you with new respect when you say "no, I will not lower my standards for money".



Good for you for walking away rather than compromising your principles.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 7, 2009)

to top or not to top that is the question...........


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## treemandan (Oct 7, 2009)

Was the HO a cantankerous old onion? They usualy get what they want.









Bad pic from the 90's but they told me to do it. I brought it down to the roofline. I usually don't go round doing that all the time.


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## capetrees (Oct 7, 2009)

When the tree survives and grows in a different manner, how is anyone able to explain the "it harms the tree" principle? The cuts scar over and the energy in the tree is expended in some other area. The pines that I have topped for years now have all done just fine and actually thicken, creating as canopy above the woods floor. Nobody in their right mind just goes in and cuts a tree in half like the picture above. Like a haircut, you need to blend the remaining branches with what is left. I have done this to oaks, pines, maples and even leland cypruss, cutting the lead and pruning around the remaining top edges to blend it better. Some trees do not take well to cutting and pruning and others continue to grow. I always explain this to the HO before cutting and tell them no guarantees.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 7, 2009)

when it comes right down to it, it's all about the money, either I get it or someone else will.............of course this is after I explain "what's right for the tree"..........


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## voxac30dude (Oct 7, 2009)

man im sure fruite tree must suffer tremendously from topping. we have some 30-60 foot mango tree's here on maui. they are super sensitive to there branches being cut. i heard of a guy who topped a 50 footer and it didn't fruit for the next 10 years.


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## arbor pro (Oct 8, 2009)

capetrees said:


> When the tree survives and grows in a different manner, how is anyone able to explain the "it harms the tree" principle? The cuts scar over and the *energy in the tree is expended in some other area*. The pines that I have topped for years now have all done just fine and actually thicken, creating as canopy above the woods floor. Nobody in their right mind just goes in and cuts a tree in half like the picture above. Like a haircut, you need to blend the remaining branches with what is left. I have done this to oaks, pines, maples and even leland cypruss, cutting the lead and pruning around the remaining top edges to blend it better. Some trees do not take well to cutting and pruning and others continue to grow. I always explain this to the HO before cutting and tell them no guarantees.



It's all about what happens to the tree internally that makes a differfence. When you top a tree, you force it to deplete its energy reserves in order to replenish the growth that it has lost. A topped tree begins to starve because it now has only a fraciton of the leaves it had previous to being topped. As a result, it cannot take in enough sunlight to produce photosynthesis which is how a tree gets its energy along with getting nutrients from the soil.

Most topped trees do put on a sudden flush of new growth after being topped and, on the outside, they can appear look healthy and vigorous. But, on the inside, the tree is getting weaker and weaker as its energy reserves get lower and lower. Over a period of years, the tree puts on new growth as fast as it can (often in the form of watersprouts) to keep from 'starving' to death.

In a healthy tree, energy created through photosynthesis is typically allocated towards two things - putting on new growth and building up defense (think of it like an imune system). If a topped tree is forced to put all of its energy towards replenishing a topped canopy, then it suddenly is left short of enough energy to put towards defense. 

As a result, it may take 5, 10, even more years but, eventually some pest or disease comes along and attacks the tree and it doesn't have enough energy built up in its reserves to defend against it and it goes downhill quickly from there and ends up firewood whereas a healthy tree with sufficient energy in its defense reserves would have a much better chance at defending itself.

Think of it this way...a person with HIV or AIDS doesn't typically die from HIV or AIDS. Rather, it's pneumonia or something else that attacks the person's depleted immune system and gets the best of them whereas a person with a healthy immune system is able to fight off the attack.

If you continually stress out a tree, whether it be by topping, root cutting, improper fertilization or some other inappropriate treatment, the tree may look fine on the outside but there is a whole lot of bad stuff going on on the inside.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 8, 2009)

Species has a lot to do with it, age too. 

Some trees evolved in an environment where there is a damage cycle that they had to adapt to. Young trees seem to adapt as it it were a browsing response; this is where pollard, espalier and cloud pruning come in. The difference is that the cultural practice is thoughtful and discriminating, where topping is indiscriminate.

Sort of like the saying where a little knowledge can be more dangerous then ignorance.


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## B_Turner (Oct 8, 2009)

Hat racking.

Arborists I know generally won't do it even when the client wants it.

There are plenty of chainsaw wielding "tree services" that will do whatever the customer says. Often it's a case of you gets what you pay for in terms of tree work.


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## arbor pro (Oct 8, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> when it comes right down to it, it's all about the money, either I get it or someone else will.............of course this is after I explain "what's right for the tree"..........



I find this mentality towards tree work interesting considering that the same guys who are fine with making a quick buck doing something like topping would likely never ask their mechanic to save a few bucks by doing something questionable in the short run that is likely to cause severe damage to their prized work or personal truck over time.

As professionals, we're all expected to look at the big picture and to act in the best interest of our clients and not in the best interests of our own pocketbooks. Yes, we all need to make a living but no, we don't need to do it by hacking up trees when we know we shouldn't be - even if the client persists in asking us to. 

Ethics...gitcha some.


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## ozzy42 (Oct 8, 2009)

If after being told that topping will not benefit their tree,and the HO still insist on having their tree hacked up,that is the HOs bad.
Their tree has absolutely no sentimental value to me.
It's not my tree,and it's not in my yard.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 8, 2009)

arbor pro said:


> I find this mentality towards tree work interesting considering that the same guys who are fine with making a quick buck doing something like topping would likely never ask their mechanic to save a few bucks by doing something questionable in the short run that is likely to cause severe damage to their prized work or personal truck over time.


I do my own mechanic work.........



arbor pro said:


> As professionals, we're all expected to look at the big picture and to act in the best interest of our clients and not in the best interests of our own pocketbooks. Yes, we all need to make a living but no, we don't need to do it by hacking up trees when we know we shouldn't be - even if the client persists in asking us to.
> 
> Ethics...gitcha some.


has nothing to do with ethics, bad ethics is hiring illegals and paying them under the table $6 and hour and working them 12 hours a day and not paying over time......

if I explain to them the down side of the topping and their mind is set on topping the tree you, I or no one else will change it and if I don't get the money someone else will, I've seen guys riding around town hat racking the hell out of trees and ads state ISA certified arborist in the yellow pages....IT'S THEIR TREE, they can do as they please.....


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## arbor pro (Oct 9, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I do my own mechanic work.........
> 
> has nothing to do with ethics, bad ethics is hiring illegals and paying them under the table $6 and hour and working them 12 hours a day and not paying over time......
> 
> if I explain to them the down side of the topping and their mind is set on topping the tree you, I or no one else will change it and if I don't get the money someone else will, I've seen guys riding around town hat racking the hell out of trees and ads state ISA certified arborist in the yellow pages....IT'S THEIR TREE, they can do as they please.....



Ethics (as defined by me) is simply understanding the difference between right and wrong in your work practices and attempting to do no wrong. As I said before, it's about working in the best interest of the client EVEN IF the client is stubborn and stupid and doesn't want to look at the big picture.

So you, as a professional tree service, top a relatively healthy; albeit, tall tree because the homeowner insists that you do so. It grows back watersprouts which are weakly attached and become vulnerable to wind and ice damage. Further, the new growth stresses the tree and it becomes infested with insects and disease-causing pathogens. Along comes a wind and ice storm and the tree fails in various locations and ultimately falls through the neighbor's roof causing extensive damage to his home and physical injury to his family. When the bills start rolling in for property repairs and medical bills, a lawyer soon gets involved and starts asking tree experts about the tree and what caused it to fail.

Guess who's going to get his butt drug into court to defend himself for topping the tree? If you think a jury is going to be compassionate towards you, the hack arborist, vs the HO's little girl who got clobbered by the tree you topped, you're kidding yourself. They're going to look at you as the professional who should have known better than to do something that is generally understood to be wrong just because the HO offered you money to do it. 

Even if you, as the defendant, win the battle in court, how sweet does that $500 bucks the HO paid you to top his tree look after you lawyer hands you a bill for $20,000 for his defense? And, before you jump on the "well, that's what insurance is for" bandwagon - are you sure your insurance will cover your expenses in a gross negligence lawsuit?

Forget the ethics part of this discussion and just think about the liability you're taking on when you do something to a tree that you know isn't going to be good for the health and longevity of it. It's just not worth the liability hanging over your head IMO.


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## Plasmech (Oct 9, 2009)

Idea # 10,732

Transplant the tree to an area where it hardly rains, like Arizona.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 9, 2009)

arbor pro said:


> Ethics (as defined by me) is simply understanding the difference between right and wrong in your work practices and attempting to do no wrong. As I said before, it's about working in the best interest of the client EVEN IF the client is stubborn and stupid and doesn't want to look at the big picture.
> 
> So you, as a professional tree service, top a relatively healthy; albeit, tall tree because the homeowner insists that you do so. It grows back watersprouts which are weakly attached and become vulnerable to wind and ice damage. Further, the new growth stresses the tree and it becomes infested with insects and disease-causing pathogens. Along comes a wind and ice storm and the tree fails in various locations and ultimately falls through the neighbor's roof causing extensive damage to his home and physical injury to his family. When the bills start rolling in for property repairs and medical bills, a lawyer soon gets involved and starts asking tree experts about the tree and what caused it to fail.
> 
> ...


:deadhorse::deadhorse: show me written rules or statues from my state that state I would be negligent in topping the tree...

I don't try to sell topping nor do I advertise it but I will do it.....


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## outofmytree (Oct 10, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> :deadhorse::deadhorse: show me written rules or statues from my state that state I would be negligent in topping the tree...
> 
> I don't try to sell topping *nor do I advertise *it but I will do it.....



You are advertising it every time you do it. The image you portray to your clients is that money is your number 1 priority regardless of what is right or wrong. 

I have always liked this quote attributed to Alexander Hamilton "A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything."

Ethics has nothing to do with laws and regulations, it is simply you deciding that you will do what is right regardless.


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## treemandan (Oct 10, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I do my own mechanic work.........
> 
> has nothing to do with ethics, bad ethics is hiring illegals and paying them under the table $6 and hour and working them 12 hours a day and not paying over time......
> 
> if I explain to them the down side of the topping and their mind is set on topping the tree you, I or no one else will change it and if I don't get the money someone else will, I've seen guys riding around town hat racking the hell out of trees and ads state ISA certified arborist in the yellow pages....IT'S THEIR TREE, they can do as they please.....



Oh hell, ain't nobody going wanna hack up their lovely automobile, Nah, that would be a crime. A tree? Why not? It don't do nothing but make a mess on the car.


I probably wouldn't go topping a big virgin tree but I find myself re-topping quite few and never worked at a place where they wouldn't jump on a topping job.. save for one and that one would charge to try to correctly prune and support the biggest pieces of crap you ever did see. 
I just removed a big maple for my accountant. I told him what topping would do, I told him what it would take to care for the tree to keep it from breaking up, then I told him 2500 to TD it and grind the stump.
I am always cutting the tops of of things like Arbs, cedars and pear trees. I don't know what you would call this...










And I don't think doing this was all that great for the trees but that is what they wanted


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 10, 2009)

treemandan said:


> I don't know what you would call this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> And I don't think doing this was all that great for the trees but that is what they wanted



I've been doing more "line off site" trimming on bluffs an hilltops. My latest catch phrase is "Looks good. Ain't good for the tree, but it looks good!"


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## ozzy42 (Oct 10, 2009)

I am just curious.

I have a question for those who say they walk away from a client who wants their tree topped.

Do you walk away from a client that wants to remove a perfectly healthy and safe tree?

I think most would remove the tree.If so,wouldn't that be doing the most irreparable harm to the tree imaginable , for a quick buck?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 10, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> Do you walk away from a client that wants to remove a perfectly healthy and safe tree?



Some do walk away, the line is in different places for each of us.

For most of us it is that butchery is not in the play book. topping is not professional tree care, and if you insist on it being done, you do not want professional work. Another reason is that it leaves an unsafe environment behind, with a small but real liability.

I refuse to top, but have retopped and dropped crotches to make a tree smaller for someone who cannot afford a removal.


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## matt9923 (Oct 10, 2009)

voxac30dude said:


> this guy wants to hire me my friend who is a 20 year Arborist to cut a tree in half. personally i think it's weird. the tree is perfectly healthy but the home owner says it's too tall(50 feet). he wants us to climb up into the tree and cut from the top down about 20 feet. have any of you guys ever done this? wouldent it look weird with a flat stump left on the top? please chime in thanks.



Iv seen it done for a few reasons. Only tree for the clothesline, iv seen people have it carved into something.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 10, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> You are advertising it every time you do it. The image you portray to your clients is that money is your number 1 priority regardless of what is right or wrong.


yes, you are correct, money is is very high on my priority list, I give the customer what *they* want and if they pass on my info to John Doe or who ever and say this guy tops trees so be it, as long as guys like you keep walking away from jobs that *YOU* feel "isn't right for the tree" I will keep making good money doing what you won't do and that's give them what they want (if it's legal)



outofmytree said:


> Ethics has nothing to do with laws and regulations, it is simply you deciding that you will do what is right regardless.


everyone brings up ethics, people been topping trees for over a hundred years and now in the last few years because some pencil pusher has decided that it's wrong it is now unethical to do it and is so dangerous, show me one case where someone was found guilty or lost a case (other than something from states that are communist and don't allow it) because they topped a tree and something or someone got hurt and I'll shut up for ever.........


as for re-topping, that's the same as topping, you're just the second or third guy to do it and so on........


I'll *NEVER* walk away from a job I can complete and make money on (if it's legal) been doing it for a long time and plan to do it for a long time to come........


.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 10, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> yes, you are correct, money is is very high on my priority list, I give the customer what *they* want and if they pass on my info to John Doe or who ever and say this guy tops trees so be it, as long as guys like you keep walking away from jobs that *YOU* feel "isn't right for the tree" I will keep making good money doing what you won't do and that's give them what they want (if it's legal)
> 
> everyone brings up ethics, people been topping trees for over a hundred years and now in the last few years because some pencil pusher has decided that it's wrong it is now unethical to do it and is so dangerous, show me one case where someone was found guilty or lost a case (other than something from states that are communist and don't allow it) because they topped a tree and something or someone got hurt and I'll shut up for ever.........
> 
> ...


And thank you for that , because you create work for the rest of us to fix, and when you set the benchmark low it's not hard for us to shine ...


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## ozzy42 (Oct 10, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Some do walk away, the line is in different places for each of us.



You answered the first question with "some do".


Wich leaves the assumption that "MOST" would not walk away from an unneeded removal.


So,it's ok to do an unethical and unproffesional removal,so long as there is no trace huh?


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## ozzy42 (Oct 10, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> yes, you are correct, money is is very high on my priority list, I give the customer what *they* want and if they pass on my info to John Doe or who ever and say this guy tops trees so be it, as long as guys like you keep walking away from jobs that *YOU* feel "isn't right for the tree" I will keep making good money doing what you won't do and that's give them what they want (if it's legal)
> 
> everyone brings up ethics, people been topping trees for over a hundred years and now in the last few years because some pencil pusher has decided that it's wrong it is now unethical to do it and is so dangerous, show me one case where someone was found guilty or lost a case (other than something from states that are communist and don't allow it) because they topped a tree and something or someone got hurt and I'll shut up for ever.........
> 
> ...



:agree2:

I have seen it done by every Tree service in 2 counties here.
I guess were all hacks:chainsawguy:


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## Rftreeman (Oct 10, 2009)

treeclimber101 said:


> And thank you for that , because you create work for the rest of us to fix, and when you set the benchmark low it's not hard for us to shine ...


what are you going to fix.....I'll be back in fives years to top it again so what's there to fix........


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## Rftreeman (Oct 10, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> :agree2:
> 
> I have seen it done by every Tree service in 2 counties here.
> I guess were all hacks:chainsawguy:


yep...

I'll bet you that there's not a man out there that's been in business for more than 15 years that hasn't done it...some aren't ashamed to say they have and will again while others will put up a front trying to fit in.........

hell yes I'm a hack but a happy hack on the way to the bank........


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## tomtrees58 (Oct 10, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I ususally remove the bottom 20 feet and leave the top. Makes it easier to cut the lawn with no trunk to trim around.
> 
> 
> 
> /


:hmm3grin2orange:works for me tom trees


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## ozzy42 (Oct 10, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I ususally remove the bottom 20 feet and leave the top. Makes it easier to cut the lawn with no trunk to trim around.
> 
> 
> 
> /



Me too:chainsawguy:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 10, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> So,it's ok to do an unethical and unproffesional removal,so long as there is no trace huh?



It depends on what I as the practitioner, and my peers consider unprofessional and unethical. Why does the potential client want the tree down? 

Let's go back to my thesis that the spectrum of tree care extends from those who do whatever the client reasonably requests and those who are tree advocates. I am in the middle and will do things bad for the tree if it will not pose a long term harm, for the client *or future owners*. 

I ascribe to the idea that owners do not have total control over what they do with real property. Building codes are a logical part of this, you should not be able to wire your house any which way you choose, and you should not alter a large tree in a fashion that will put people at risk in the future. 

By removing a garage or tree you alter the property, but do not pose any future risk. 

I also ascribe to the idea that a community can place controls on people that move into the community. If they want to control what trees are cut, so be it. I do think that there should be grandfather clauses so that current residents who do not agree should not be held to them.


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## ozzy42 (Oct 10, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> It depends on what I as the practitioner, and my peers consider unprofessional and unethical. Why does the potential client want the tree down?
> 
> Let's go back to my thesis that the spectrum of tree care extends from those who do whatever the client reasonably requests and those who are tree advocates. I am in the middle and will do things bad for the tree if it will not pose a long term harm, for the client *or future owners*.
> 
> ...



I guess that is the difference between us.

I am a personal property rights advocate,not a tree advocate.


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## outofmytree (Oct 11, 2009)

Hey RFtree and Ozzy. What you do is your concern. I am simply stating what I do. I do walk away from topping jobs and I do walk away from needless removals. I also have in the past topped trees and removed trees needlessly. The difference from then to now is knowledge. I read more, learned more and made the choice to improve myself. It does not make me a saint but it does make me feel a lot better about myself and about the work I do.


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## tomtrees58 (Oct 11, 2009)

Rf Treeman said:


> yep...
> 
> I'll bet you that there's not a man out there that's been in business for more than 15 years that hasn't done it...some aren't ashamed to say they have and will again while others will put up a front trying to fit in.........
> 
> hell yes I'm a hack but a happy hack on the way to the bank........



i agree i am no hack 36 years now in the tree business all try to stop the home people from topping a tree but the bottom line if you wont do some one will so we do and wen it dies we have a removal job thomas h duffy arborist


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## voxac30dude (Oct 11, 2009)

if an HO is asking me to cut something that is not worth cutting or is healthy i just throw out a buncha scientific words at them like, cambium or photosynthesis and they get soo confused they just walk back inside and let me go to work and do the right thing. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
anyone can use a chainsaw to cut a tree but, not everyone can cut a tree the right way.


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## matt9923 (Oct 11, 2009)

voxac30dude said:


> if an HO is asking me to cut something that is not worth cutting or is healthy i just throw out a buncha scientific words at them like, cambium or photosynthesis and they get soo confused they just walk back inside and let me go to work and do the right thing.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> anyone can use a chainsaw to cut a tree but, not everyone can cut a tree the right way.



Id tell you to get lost, and if you already started working tuff. Their paying if they want a stub for clothesline or something you will say no?? That's stupid. 

Why chase away business?


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## matt9923 (Oct 11, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> i agree i am no hack 36 years now in the tree business all try to stop the home people from topping a tree but the bottom line if you wont do some one will so we do and wen it dies we have a removal job thomas h duffy arborist



Best post of the thread tom!!


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## treemandan (Oct 11, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> http://images.google.com/images?q=tree topping



I think a couple of them might have been mine though it was the guy with the whip who made me do it.


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## CLEARVIEW TREE (Oct 11, 2009)

[yep, it's their tree, but your reputation! Here in Tn there is one place that i know of where topping is illegal. Think about it, if topping was illegal everywhere, then Certified Arborists like myself would have endless amounts of work. QUOTE=ozzy42;1754357]We have a lot of seniors here who think that is the only way to make a tree "safe" ,at least to them.
I try to talk them out of it ,telling them" it will harm the tree,it will grow back worse than before, etc,etc."
Some will listen ,some won't.

Some tell me they will be dead by time it becomes a problem again,and they don't care.
At that point ,I do whatever they want to do .
It is after all,,,their tree.

But it has been debated on here quite a bit ,and there are plenty who will disagree with me ,but nobody chimed in yet,so I figured I would give you my 
.02 worth.

edit: In some cities here it is illegal to remove a canopy from certain trees.
check with the regs where you are.[/QUOTE]


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## ozzy42 (Oct 11, 2009)

CLEARVIEW TREE said:


> [yep, it's their tree, but your reputation! Here in Tn there is one place that i know of where topping is illegal. Think about it, if topping was illegal everywhere, then Certified Arborists like myself would have endless amounts of work.



The fact that it is illegal in some places means it is not done there.
It simply takes the "I want it done that way,and if you won't do it the next guy will" part away from the HO."

How do you think that equates to only CAs getting work???
Dream on.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 12, 2009)

certification is like a drivers license, just because you got it doesn't mean you know what you're doing..............lol......

opcorn:

:bringit:


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## B_Turner (Oct 12, 2009)

I heard a guy once say you could tell alot about a guy with a chainsaw by the type of helmet he was wearing in the tree.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 12, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> what are you going to fix.....I'll be back in fives years to top it again so what's there to fix........



What I fix is your work , often repairing previously topped trees and eventually the customer will get the point and not ask for a antiquated tree practice , and your right there are some customers that want this type of work and you will see someone doing it , but the bottom line is what is that quick buck worth to you.. Your mark lasts alot longer than the money in your pocket and every tree you walk away from is a show of your knowledge .


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## Rftreeman (Oct 12, 2009)

To quote Phil Collins "I don't care anymore" about this thread........it's only a :deadhorse: session now
people have different opinions about this evil tree topping thing so let's leave it at that and put this thread out of it's misery.....


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## arborist (Oct 12, 2009)

*"let Tom,####,and Harry cut the grass.Leave your tree's to professionals"*

What's that bumper sticker from sherril say?
"let Tom,####,and Harry cut the grass.Leave your tree's to professionals"

It's easy to spot a "hack" and a professional in arboriculture,even for homeowners.
What do you want to be? nothing? Just a guy who happens to know,how to climb trees and get some money?
Or would you like to be a tree doctor?
The choice is yours.
Don't expect to keep hacking tree's and even coming close to an arborist's yearly wages.It wont happen.
When we walk away from a determined home owner who want's hack work,we are not the ones losing the bucks boys.It's the small time hacker who couldn't or didn't make the grade to "arborist" who doesn't stand a chance making the kind of yearly salary an arborist does.

Tree's in ones landscape,can be worth more than our trucks!
You want to risk killing one or someone else?
Legal or not,how will you feel when the day finally comes,where a child was playing under a tree,you knowingly incorrectly pruned, (topping is not even pruning lol) And the new scientifically proven, weakly connected sprout,comes down and kill's the child?
Forget the court.
How will you feel?

Pause.
Meditate on that question for a moment.


Do you not even care enough for people,so as to not even listen to professionals explain the very BASICS of hazards? 
Do you really think professionals haven't researched,time and time again,these principles?Do you really think we just pull this stuff out of our hats?
Do you really think these things are not based on years,and years of scientific research? Who are YOU,to decide that dedicated arborists and scientific research based on thousands,and thousands of hours come to the conclusion that topping is wrong,dangerous,a real hazard,a real lawsuit on your head,should anything happen? Who are YOU to disagree with this?
People who "top" tree's are NOT arborist's.
Something so basic as topping is being done today due to lack of education.
You have professionals telling you topping is wrong,yet because you have been a "hack" for years,you think your way is right.
ok,so a "hack" doesn't care about tree's.So it's pointless trying to explain things this way,so lets try this approach:
Which would you rather have?
A.A professional DR work on you?
or
B.A guy with a saw who can cut off a leg if it's infected?
Well,duh,you want the Dr.
What do you think most homeowners want?
A tree Dr or a guy with a chainsaw?

It's not those of us who know when to walk away who are making less money boys.I promise you.

Pick up a book and get started in the field of arboriculture.

Iv said it before,and I'll say it again.Every state should mandate state licensing for arborists.

Reflect on that question asked again please about how you would feel,all due to one thing:
You simply didn't listen to those professionals on AS.
Kick yourself then or now?
I'd recommend kicking yourself now boys.
Just walk away.Its not only the most profitable thing to do in the long run,its the safest.Don't even walk.......run away when asked to top a tree.

Hack or arborist tomorrow? The choice is yours.


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## arborist (Oct 12, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If you expect us to stop pounding you tree topping hacks you'd better think again!
> 
> 
> Get a real job bubba and leave the trees alone!
> ...



Amen brother!
We can't ever give up.It means saving life's of people and tree's.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 13, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If you expect us to stop pounding you tree topping hacks you'd better think again!
> 
> 
> Get a real job bubba and leave the trees alone!
> ...





arborist said:


> What's that bumper sticker from sherril say?
> "let Tom,####,and Harry cut the grass.Leave your tree's to professionals"
> 
> It's easy to spot a "hack" and a professional in arboriculture,even for homeowners.
> ...





arborist said:


> Amen brother!
> We can't ever give up.It means saving life's of people and tree's.


:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

*YOU CAN BEAT THAT DEAD HORSE FOREVER, IT AIN'T GONNA GET UP AND WALK AGAIN.....*


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## arbor pro (Oct 13, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Hey RFtree and Ozzy. What you do is your concern. I am simply stating what I do. I do walk away from topping jobs and I do walk away from needless removals. I also have in the past topped trees and removed trees needlessly. The difference from then to now is knowledge. I read more, learned more and made the choice to improve myself. It does not make me a saint but it does make me feel a lot better about myself and about the work I do.



If I could have, outofmytree, I would have rep'd you again for this statement. When I first started out some 20+ years ago, I topped a few trees because I didn't know any better. I now know better and refuse to do so. Instead, I will discuss other options with my client and find a solution that is best for them and their property in the long run.

We have on this site seasoned arborists and seasoned hacks. We also have arborist wannabes and hack wannabes. There is really no gray area inbetween. You choose to be or to become one or the other but you can't be both.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 13, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
> 
> *YOU CAN BEAT THAT DEAD HORSE FOREVER, IT AIN'T GONNA GET UP AND WALK AGAIN.....*


 Or in your case You can't teach an old dog new tricks ,lol we do love the hacks here they make us shine baby..


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## Rftreeman (Oct 13, 2009)

treeclimber101 said:


> Or in your case You can't teach an old dog new tricks ,lol we do love the hacks here they make us shine baby..


I think you missed the part where I said I try to talk them out of it first as for teaching an old dog new tricks, I've learned a lot over the past few years but I'm not going to walk away from a job that's paying just because you want me too, I've never made any claim of being an arborist but I don't go out telling people that they need to have the trees topped and I never argued that it was the right thing to do either so I don't know where "arborist" got that, they tell me that's what they want and if after explaining to them what can happen or trying to talk them in to removing and replacing with a shorter tree and they still insist then they get what they want rather you or anyone else likes it or not, you tell me you'll walk if they ask you to top it, what if you got hungry kids at home and bills are piling up do to this screwed up economy and the only work you can find is a few top jobs, going to walk then, I doubt it...

as for the find a real job and grass mowing remarks...I do both and have a real job that I go out everyday and do and do it well on both sides of the playing field, it's not impossible to be both.....

now, I'm done in this thread, it's obvious that a few here have ego trips and just come here to preach and put down others because they do it a bit different then some or might include grass cutting in their line of service....


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## treeseer (Oct 13, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> now, I'm done in this thread, it's obvious that a few here have ego trips and just come here to preach and put down others because they do it a bit different then some or might include grass cutting in their line of service....


dang you guys were hard on Rf, who has come a LONG way on this site; he's my homeboy so I'm watching...

"We have on this site seasoned arborists and seasoned hacks. We also have arborist wannabes and hack wannabes. There is really no gray area inbetween. You choose to be or to become one or the other but you can't be both."

With all due respect good sir that is total BS. We're all gray--I just whacked my mature crepemyrtles to 30% of their former size, whaddya gonna call that?

opcorn:


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## treeseer (Oct 14, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I would call it a waste of time and disrespect for a plant's natural form...I'm sure you had a good reason though...one better than doing it to put food on the table.


no food--they're my own trees. I do respect the bottom 15' of form, but they made few flowers and were crowding some oaks i planted that i wanted to dominate. cuts made to nodes; oughta have good callus knobs before long.

Yet some judgmental folk may spew a "rule" like "You can't turn a mature tree into a pollard". :censored: Seeing only black and white blinds you to a rainbow of opportunity, and painting others black shows a lack of confidence in one's work. Slamming others to make yourself look good; not nice, not showing much belief in your own work standing on its own.

imo


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## outofmytree (Oct 14, 2009)

treeseer said:


> no food--they're my own trees. I do respect the bottom 15' of form, but they made few flowers and were crowding some oaks i planted that i wanted to dominate. cuts made to nodes; oughta have good callus knobs before long.
> 
> Yet some judgmental folk may spew a "rule" like "You can't turn a mature tree into a pollard". :censored: Seeing only black and white blinds you to a rainbow of opportunity, and painting others black shows a lack of confidence in one's work. Slamming others to make yourself look good; not nice, not showing much belief in your own work standing on its own.
> 
> imo



I can't speak for anyone else Guy, but it was never my intention to "slam" anyone. I firmly believe that a mans work should be testimony to his skills and his standards. Topped trees say, in the loudest possible voice, "the person who did this chose money over ethics". If we, as tree professionals, cannot agree that topping is simply wrong then what hope is there of turning the general population away from this antiquated practise?

To the guys who still top trees I would say, rather than give in to the uneducated client, learn to sell good tree pruning. As the owner of a small business one of most important skills you can learn is the ability to sell your company. Take a sales course and adapt the teaching to your craft. As important as it is to understand trees, it is people who pay the bills. So we need to understand them too.

Grandma used to say "you draw more bees with honey than vinegar" so if I have stepped one anyones toes, I apologise.


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## treeseer (Oct 14, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> If we, as tree professionals, cannot agree that topping is simply wrong then what hope is there of turning the general population away from this antiquated practise?


De debbil is in de details; ANSI's definition of topping has shifted over the years but it is still not right imo. 10 arborists may look at a pruning job; 5 may call it improper topping, 5 may call it proper crown reduction.

Not sure Rf knows how to climb to the ends to make good reduction cuts though; that is the key.


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## Rftreeman (Oct 14, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Not sure Rf knows how to climb to the ends to make good reduction cuts though; that is the key.


I said I was done but I'll answer this, in a bucket yes but climbing no I can't get my fat ass out there anymore, I only climb on spikes now on simple removals, I do have the connections for a rope climber for such things other than removals..


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 14, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I think you missed the part where I said I try to talk them out of it first as for teaching an old dog new tricks, I've learned a lot over the past few years but I'm not going to walk away from a job that's paying just because you want me too, I've never made any claim of being an arborist but I don't go out telling people that they need to have the trees topped and I never argued that it was the right thing to do either so I don't know where "arborist" got that, they tell me that's what they want and if after explaining to them what can happen or trying to talk them in to removing and replacing with a shorter tree and they still insist then they get what they want rather you or anyone else likes it or not, you tell me you'll walk if they ask you to top it, what if you got hungry kids at home and bills are piling up do to this screwed up economy and the only work you can find is a few top jobs, going to walk then, I doubt it...
> 
> as for the find a real job and grass mowing remarks...I do both and have a real job that I go out everyday and do and do it well on both sides of the playing field, it's not impossible to be both.....
> 
> now, I'm done in this thread, it's obvious that a few here have ego trips and just come here to preach and put down others because they do it a bit different then some or might include grass cutting in their line of service....



I didn't know you cut grass ,I plow snow who cares about the other services , but at first you were quite beligerent about tree topping and I agree someone else will do it if you don't , so that's my take on that RF and I'm not bashing you I am just an :censored: so It's my fault ...


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## FanOFatherNash (Feb 2, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> git-r-done
> 
> git-paid
> 
> ...


 
the kids think its ok to catch rattle snakes afterwards ???


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## Koa Man (Feb 3, 2011)

I do everything from fine pruning to topping. I try my best to explain to the owner of the tree what is likely to happen when a tree is topped but if they insist on having it done, I will do it. Otherwise they will just get someone else who will likely not remove the branches at the collar, leave large tears, and damage the branches below by dropping heavy wood on them.

I also tell them that if anyone asks who did the work, let them also know that it was done over my strong objection. I have a job on Friday to heavy trim a mango tree. The owner originally wanted to cut off everything and leave only the big limbs with no leaves on it. I was able to talk him into leaving some of the lower laterals and not take it back as far. It is still more than I would like to have removed, but at least I am doing the job and not someone who has no understanding of tree work.

BTW, the owner originally was going to do it himself but stopped after he took out the power line to his house with his first cut. LOL.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 3, 2011)

Why not try to inform him that the same goal but better result can be obtained by a reduction and thin!


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## ropensaddle (Feb 3, 2011)

treeseer said:


> De debbil is in de details; ANSI's definition of topping has shifted over the years but it is still not right imo. 10 arborists may look at a pruning job; 5 may call it improper topping, 5 may call it proper crown reduction.
> 
> Not sure Rf knows how to climb to the ends to make good reduction cuts though; that is the key.


 
I have found a silky and pruner do adequate reductions.


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 3, 2011)

TreeCo said:


> I ususally remove the bottom 20 feet and leave the top. Makes it easier to cut the lawn with no trunk to trim around.
> 
> 
> 
> /


 


Works best with a dense canopy.. dense ho helps too..


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 3, 2011)

ozzy42 said:


> We have a lot of seniors here who think that is the only way to make a tree "safe" ,at least to them.



Yep.. we have same here.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 3, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Yep.. we have same here.


 
Yeah don't they know the only way to make them truly safe is to make a stump outta them


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 3, 2011)

afblue said:


> The power company is notorious for it, they cut the branches as they see fit whether it benefits the tree or not. t....


 
Yours too .. utility pruning is something else..


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## treeman75 (Feb 3, 2011)

We went to my wifes aunt&uncles for Thanksgiving this year 50 miles away 2500 people. About half the trees in town were topped they looked terrible! I ask her uncle who does tree work in town and said somthing about the trees he says thats how they do it there. I tried to educate him on proper trimming and height reduction. He has a row populars that have been topped and where they were cut it is decaying. He has a row of silver maples 4-5 maybe 25' tall I offered to come and trim em cheap. He said he will put his ladder up and top them his self, I said good look dont break your leg! He really made me mad he wouldnt even listen to me!


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## Labman (Feb 3, 2011)

Around here Asplundh is one of the few that does anything but the ugliest topping butchery.


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## Ed Roland (Feb 4, 2011)

treeseer said:


> With all due respect good sir that is total BS. We're all gray--I just whacked my mature crepemyrtles to 30% of their former size, whaddya gonna call that?
> 
> opcorn:


 
Malus and Citrus as it pertains to the discussion. Reasonable reduction considering the placement of the cuts and specie as it pertains to the plant and owner goals. 

An arborist by definition is an individual who is trained in the art and science of planting, caring for, and maintaining individual trees. - ISA

Anyone posting on *Arborist*site.com that they happily perform indescriminate heading cuts for $ should either tune in or simply tune out.


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## arbor pro (Feb 4, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> Anyone posting on *Arborist*site.com that they happily perform indescriminate heading cuts for $ should either tune in or simply tune out.


 
Amen, brother.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 4, 2011)

treeseer said:


> dang you guys were hard on Rf, who has come a LONG way on this site; he's my homeboy so I'm watching...



Watch out rf seers watchin you buddy



treeseer said:


> "We have on this site seasoned arborists and seasoned hacks. We also have arborist wannabes and hack wannabes. There is really no gray area inbetween. You choose to be or to become one or the other but you can't be both."



Wonder how many been all of them in their career:monkey:




treeseer said:


> With all due respect good sir that is total BS. We're all gray--I just whacked my mature crepemyrtles to 30% of their former size, whaddya gonna call that?
> 
> opcorn:


 
Ehhhhh flower production ehhhh.


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## JNGWC&Tree (Feb 4, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> :deadhorse::deadhorse: show me written rules or statues from my state that state I would be negligent in topping the tree...
> 
> I don't try to sell topping nor do I advertise it but I will do it.....


 


It's happened before, Dr. Shigo in fact has been the expert testimony in a few of these cases in the past. The case wasn't determined by laws on the books, it was determined by the selling of "professional" services using reasonably questionable practices. Topping can easily be established in court as a "questionable practice" and hence negligence can be placed on the arborist. The determination of the court views the homeowner as deferred to the professional as more informed. Plant Amnesty has an interesting article on this as well as some explanation of Dr. Shigo's involvement in a case down in Florida where a topped specimen failed and caused injury to a child. In a world of case law, precedent would be against you as a historical fact.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 4, 2011)

treeseer said:


> dang you guys were hard on Rf, who has come a LONG way on this site; he's my homeboy so I'm watching...
> 
> "We have on this site seasoned arborists and seasoned hacks. We also have arborist wannabes and hack wannabes. There is really no gray area inbetween. You choose to be or to become one or the other but you can't be both."
> 
> ...


 


ropensaddle said:


> Watch out rf seers watchin you buddy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ha it worked finally learned to quote multiples


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 4, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> certification is like a drivers license, just because you got it doesn't mean you know what you're doing..............lol......
> 
> opcorn:
> 
> :bringit:


 
That is partially true.. or at least.. that you practice what you should know..


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 4, 2011)

ozzy42 said:


> You answered the first question with "some do".
> 
> Wich leaves the assumption that "MOST" would not walk away from an unneeded removal.
> 
> So,it's ok to do an unethical and unproffesional removal,so long as there is no trace huh?



I guess the question then becomes what is unethical in a removal.. what qualifies and what does not.

We have many examples around here where folks do removals to enlarge a cottage -- original cottage on lakefront built years ago was small. now they want to build one a couple of thousand square feet (or more) larger.. and big maple out front (or whatever) is in way.. been there for a hundred years.. stands taller than anything else around.. matters not.

They get building permit for new building.. and tree is in way.

Sad.. but once the municipality gives building permit what is going to happen..

Worse.. one of the townships this is happening is has a bylaw against cutting trees.. and that you need a permit (which is not easy to obtain). But if a building permit has been issued and tree is in way, then no issues in getting permit. So.. way to do it is to apply for building permit first.. as they only look at lot lines, survey, etc.. and then issue permit if all is in order.

Then... they ask for tree removal permit .. if they did other way around they likely could not get away with it.

This is one of the most unethical situations we have around here.. and there is nothing you can do about it as a permit to remove has been issued.


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 4, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah don't they know the only way to make them truly safe is to make a stump outta them


 
The ultimate topping..


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 4, 2011)

We have some around here doing it on regular basis..

Think they should offer it as a service and advertise..

Maybe call it "mutilation"


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## ropensaddle (Feb 4, 2011)

Ed Roland said:


> Malus and Citrus as it pertains to the discussion. Reasonable reduction considering the placement of the cuts and specie as it pertains to the plant and owner goals.
> 
> An arborist by definition is an individual who is trained in the art and science of planting, caring for, and maintaining individual trees. - ISA
> 
> Anyone posting on *Arborist*site.com that they happily perform indescriminate heading cuts for $ should either tune in or simply tune out.


 I would understand indiscriminate but there are areas of practice that seemingly cause topping but are proper for the tree. I have done several restore jobs on severe diebacks that if you did not see the tree before, would appear hacked. I hate doing them just because of the look that results and that I know someone half experienced and educated will soon mouth off about my work. I would rather cut it down which really may not be best either. Also; what do you do when you have informed a customer the loss of food source will cause undo stress on the tree, limit photosynthesis which in turn reduces pest and disease resistance and they still want it topped? I will tell you what I do and you can call me a hack if it makes you feel better. I thoroughly document the species my recommendation and why,the customers wish and why I feel it to be improper and that no responsibility for the trees health or resulting damage after shall be held against me or my company. If they sign it I feel I have done what is reasonable and then do the work. At least the heading cuts will be at nodes the funny thing is; most wont sign my documentation or they finally listen when the responsibility is placed onto them.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 4, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> The ultimate topping..


 
I think the proper term is copicing :angel:


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## gtsawyer (Feb 4, 2011)

*My tree; my shame*

Tree gnomes from the local power company topped our blue spruce a couple of times in the last few years. Now it looks like a giant blue spruce bush, with a notch (hard to see in this photo) right through the middle of it.

Next time they come out, I'll have them take it out completely (but leave me the firewood-sized chunks).


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## TreeClimber57 (Feb 4, 2011)

gtsawyer said:


> Tree gnomes from the local power company topped our blue spruce a couple of times in the last few years. Now it looks like a giant blue spruce bush, with a notch (hard to see in this photo) right through the middle of it.
> 
> Next time they come out, I'll have them take it out completely (but leave me the firewood-sized chunks).



Even somebody that knows squat about trees should know that this is just wrong..


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## Rftreeman (Feb 5, 2011)

gtsawyer said:


> Tree gnomes from the local power company topped our blue spruce a couple of times in the last few years. Now it looks like a giant blue spruce bush, with a notch (hard to see in this photo) right through the middle of it.
> 
> Next time they come out, I'll have them take it out completely (but leave me the firewood-sized chunks).


what do you expect them to do,. let it grow up through the lines then your kid or a neighbors kids climbs up there and ends up like the guy in this video, would you complain about it then, you people amaze me complaining about a tree that shouldn't have been planted there in the first place.....

as for the rest of this thread....I said last year I was done.........


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## gtsawyer (Feb 5, 2011)

Rftreeman said: "what do you expect them to do,. let it grow up through the lines then your kid or a neighbors kids climbs up there and ends up like the guy in this video, would you complain about it then, you people amaze me complaining about a tree that shouldn't have been planted there in the first place.....

as for the rest of this thread....I said last year I was done........"

The power lines went in after the tree was planted. You can't fight city hall regarding easements if the power company says they need it.

However, I observe that the tree people guarantee themselves multiple visits to the same tree over the years that they wouldn't have had if they would have simply cut it down in the first place. Maybe I'm just suspicious by nature, but then again maybe President Obama is an alien. Actually probably is now that I think about it.


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