# VT Hitch Question



## brianks2 (Sep 20, 2009)

I have been using the Blakes DdRT for awhile and have been toying with the idea of trying the VT. Before I go shell out the cash for a micro pulley I want to try it first though.

Tell me if this sounds safe.

1) VT tied with 8mm rated cord tied with double-fishermans to the biner.

2) Instead of the micropulley, I used a rated small aluminum ring where the pulley would go and threaded the climbing rope through it and attached to the biner. (Threading rope was the only annoyance in setting it up)

It looks good and works "low and slow". The ring tends the VT with little to no trouble. I can't post a picture of it just yet (digital camera at home). The aluminum ring is the only non-standard part of the VT hitch climber. Everything else is set up normally.

All opinions welcome, good and bad.


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## Bermie (Sep 21, 2009)

Dish out for a hitchclimber...WELL worth it, accept no substitute!

In the meantime I'm sure your present system will do for now...


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## Job Corps Tree (Sep 21, 2009)

With a Double fisherman's Knot on Both ends of the cord,the ring is usable Pulley is far better, Early on with this setup we used the Key Chain Biners it don't hold any load it just tends the rope. I like the Double Fishermans knot better than a Splice because it will fit clost to the Carabiner with out the double rope( rope inside of rope) as part of the splice


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## asnyder (Sep 21, 2009)

I am not sure thats what he i asking


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## pdqdl (Sep 21, 2009)

The VT is just another prussic-style friction hitch. All these knots have different performance traits, but you are not stuck with 8mm line, nor do you need a tending pulley for it to hold or release. If you wish to pulling on the tail to take up the slack, you will definitely need some mechanical device to hold the loops of the knot while the rope slips through.

Experiment safely before you go too far out on a limb.


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## tree MDS (Sep 21, 2009)

Job Corps Tree said:


> With a Double fisherman's Knot on Both ends of the cord,the ring is usable Pulley is far better, Early on with this setup we used the Key Chain Biners it don't hold any load it just tends the rope. I like the Double Fishermans knot better than a Splice because it will fit clost to the Carabiner with out the double rope( rope inside of rope) as part of the splice



I think you mean a scaffold knot instead of double fishermans knot, no?? 

Or would that be a (single?) fishermans??

Double fishermans is what you use to tie two ends of a loop together - like for a footlock cord..a scaffold knot is pretty much half a fishermans knot. at least I thought.

Just trying to clarify this point, as I've run into this here before.


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## pdqdl (Sep 21, 2009)

I think it is most properly called a double overhand noose. Drawings I have seen of the scaffold hitch look like the Double Overhand Knot making a slip noose, but with the tail going towards the noose, rather than away from it. There seems to be a real shortage of pictures showing the "scaffold hitch" as anything other than a totally different knot for tying rope to a flat plank of wood.

I have seen it called all sorts of things. Scaffold hitch seems to be commonly used here at AS, as is "double fisherman knot" for the single application of the knot as a noose. I have even seen a report that tests the breaking strength of "the double overhand knot", when it was used as a noose, not a stopper knot.

So...the knot experts of this world seem to be tongue-tied on this knot.


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## Tree Pig (Sep 21, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I think you mean a scaffold knot instead of double fishermans knot, no??
> 
> Or would that be a (single?) fishermans??
> 
> ...





pdqdl said:


> I think it is most properly called a double overhand noose. Drawings I have seen of the scaffold hitch look like the Double Overhand Knot making a slip noose, but with the tail going towards the noose, rather than away from it. There seems to be a real shortage of pictures showing the "scaffold hitch" as anything other than a totally different knot for tying rope to a flat plank of wood.
> 
> I have seen it called all sorts of things. Scaffold hitch seems to be commonly used here at AS, as is "double fisherman knot" for the single application of the knot as a noose. I have even seen a report that tests the breaking strength of "the double overhand knot", when it was used as a noose, not a stopper knot.
> 
> So...the knot experts of this world seem to be tongue-tied on this knot.



Double fisherman's loop, works well for tying eye to eye actually its what the HRC tied cord comes tied with.


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## pdqdl (Sep 21, 2009)

Well...That's the knot, but that is just one more name for it.

I prefer "double overhand noose" (as of today, when I found more information at the international guild of knot tyers, see below), as it IS a noose, rather than a loop. Technically, a "loop" knot does not slide down and form a choker, as does the Double Fisherman's loop. [Literally, in the case of the hangman's noose!]

A good place for authoritative information on knots:http://www.igkt.net/index.php

I consider this site the final word on knots in general, apart from Ashley Book of Knots. The forum at this site seems to be for knot "pro's" to argue about technical points, much like we do here at ArboristSite about tree related activities. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have a directory of all the knots they know about.


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## brianks2 (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies. I will try this weekend on the ground level again and see how it does. I think I have it pretty well tuned for my weight.

And yes, the doubled-fishermans is indeed a scafold knot. Most people I talk to dont know the name scafold though. They mostly call it a the doubled-fishermans. Same knot, two names. I do understand the difference between them, one being a bend and the other a noose/loop etc.

Thanks again for the help. This forum rocks.


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## Tree Pig (Sep 21, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Well...That's the knot, but that is just one more name for it.
> 
> I prefer "double overhand noose" (as of today, when I found more information at the international guild of knot tyers, see below), as it IS a noose, rather than a loop. Technically, a "loop" knot does not slide down and form a choker, as does the Double Fisherman's loop. [Literally, in the case of the hangman's noose!]
> 
> ...



Holy crap I thought some of the junk we argued about here was dumb but to spend hours arguing over knots man.


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## TreEmergencyB (Sep 21, 2009)

wheres the treesypder he knows knots....


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## outofmytree (Sep 22, 2009)

Its a double fishermans loop because... well...... because I said so! 

Getting back to the OP, buy a freaking micro pulley and put yourself out of your misery. Once you climb with a VT and micro properly set for the rope and your weight you will never go back to a dinosaur knot like a Blakes.


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## canopyboy (Sep 23, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with your setup, but shelling out for a micropulley is definitely worth it. I like the fixed cheek style better myself. You'll find other uses for it too from time to time. 

Going whole-hog for a hitch climber pulley is a different story in my opinion. Bit that bullet several months ago and still not sure it was worth the high price tag to me. But to each their own.


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## md_tree_dood (Sep 23, 2009)

Since noone has asked it yet, why haven't you spent the 20 bucks on a pulley?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 25, 2009)

This is a common topic; played out many times in climbing forums etc.

Properly at the IGKT and many other places i believe, they would say an Anchor Hitch (simply a double Overhand Stopper Knot placed on a host/mount/spar; making it a hitch instead of a knot) tied back to itself to from shrinking eye(so make a bight in end of line and make Double Overhand on to what will be the Standing Part with the end, now pointing in the opposite direction) to a krab etc. would be a Scaffold Hitch or Dbl. Noose. Triple is even better IMLHO.

The same Double Overhand knot tied from 1 line onto another, and the same back so that they jam together to bend/join the lines into a longer line, is more properly a Grapevine or Double Fisherman's; ~as i have been taught and used. But, knots names haven't been exactly patented and there are lots more discrepancies, than this one that we see commonly on climbing forums etc. A Square (or it's lesser the Granny) with both ends slipped is how most tie their shoes. What Americans call a Square Knot(MTL work in progress knotAplayer is known as a Reef across the pond, etc. While another variation the Thief is fair for placing between the 2 jamming Overhands of the Grapevine, to make it easier to untie. 

Personally, i think everyone being on same page is important, but more importantly pay attention more to the mechanics and dressing (seating) of the components/ knot parts. At least here i can squint and see similar mechanics perhaps leading to the name confusion! Both, try to help 'brace' back where the deformity in Standing 'weakens' the line, and also are secure. Untieability is not as favorable though.

For a Friction Hitch, i prefer a more self tending type, even with tender; like the last one shown in this Friction Hitch Compairison (all self tending except the 'base' 'girthing' Schwab); tied in 3/8" Tenex; so it lays flatter and grabs better IMLHO.

The igkt could use some new blood, as it is just getting deeper into 'working knots'.


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## RacerX (Sep 26, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Getting back to the OP, buy a freaking micro pulley and put yourself out of your misery. Once you climb with a VT and micro properly set for the rope and your weight you will never go back to a dinosaur knot like a Blakes.



I agree, I'm pretty sure that he can get a micro pulley on E-bay for less than $15 so cost shouldn't really be a factor.

Like OOMT said, once you climb with a more advanced setup than a Blake hitch you'll see a world of difference. The one problem with a VT is that if it's not tied exactly right it can slip. After ditching the Blake I climbed for a while with the VT and really liked it until I began using a Distel which I like even more. :rockn:


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## outofmytree (Sep 26, 2009)

RacerX said:


> I agree, I'm pretty sure that he can get a micro pulley on E-bay for less than $15 so cost shouldn't really be a factor.
> 
> Like OOMT said, once you climb with a more advanced setup than a Blake hitch you'll see a world of difference. *The one problem with a VT is that if it's not tied exactly right it can slip.* After ditching the Blake I climbed for a while with the VT and really liked it until I began using a Distel which I like even more. :rockn:



Exactly the problem I found with the VT. Fortunately I kept asking better climbers than me for their input and eventually one said, "add another turn or cut off 40mm". Haven't looked back. It's especially good having a really short "harness to hitch" length when you have to get in close to the head on palms.


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## md_tree_dood (Sep 27, 2009)

The easiest solution to the problem that if not tied correctly it slips, is to tie it correctly.


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## RacerX (Sep 27, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> The easiest solution to the problem that if not tied correctly it slips, is to tie it correctly.




That is true, but some hitches are more forgiving than others if tied improperly. The VT is one that's not so forgiving.


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## outofmytree (Sep 27, 2009)

Thats why low and slow is so important when you try out new rigs. Tree dood you are right of course, tying it correctly was and is the solution. The challenge is that a VT can vary depending on the type of prussik cord and climbing line used as well as rope condition and the climbers body weight. Once you get the set up right for you it is a great hitch.


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## treemandan (Sep 27, 2009)

I might be wrong but I think the scaffold and the fishermans are the same.


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## outofmytree (Sep 27, 2009)

treemandan said:


> *I might be wrong *



:agree2:























Just kidding!


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## outofmytree (Sep 27, 2009)

Whilst we are talking VT I should post a follow up on a rig that Treeco canopyboy and masiman gave some input on a few months back.

These are the 2 photo's I posted.












Notice in the second photo that 1 leg of the prussik passes through the fixee micro pulley and is held in place by a dfl stopper.

All 3 posters above raised concerns about the safety of this rig and pointed to the hitch climber guide, issued by treemagineers, as a well regarded document which condemns the use of stopper knots in this fashion.

I took this advice and abandoned the rig until further testing could be done. I emailed treemagineers, 2 national class climbers and petzl. I got 3 replies, (nothing from petzl ) and the consensus of opinion was that this rig is considered safe to use providing the knots are checked pre climb as we do for every rig. Treemagineers were particularly helpful and although said that they had used this rig, they recommend I buy a hitch climber.... 

I also had the gear inspectors at the TCC check it out to see if there were any concerns and got thumbs up all round.

I like this rig for its narrow overall size which allows me to use a dfl terminatation to "grab" the karabiner and a small rubber sleeve on the far side so there is zero karabiner roll and therefore no chance of loading the gate.

Thanks to the above posters for asking questions for which I was compelled to seek answers.


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## Bermie (Sep 28, 2009)

Yeah, I saw that rig being used at Arborcamp in Queensland last year, one of the demo climbers had it, and I had the same question about the safety of the stopper knot...he said it was ok...and his kit had been passed by the event inspectors.

Sounds like you've done your research...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 28, 2009)

*Thanks, good post*



outofmytree said:


> Whilst we are talking VT I should post a follow up
> 
> *...*
> 
> ...



*outofmytree*: Thank you very much for that post. I've been experimenting with Tom Dunlap's DEDA lanyard concept using vt's with stoppers through ring tenders on each side. I'm encouraged and appreciate your posting; _"... got thumbs up all round"_

*VERY, VERY NICE RIG!!!*

Any chance of getting a side pic of how the lines run throught that Fixe, please?


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## canopyboy (Sep 28, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Whilst we are talking VT I should post a follow up on a rig that Treeco canopyboy and masiman gave some input on a few months back.
> 
> These are the 2 photo's I posted.
> 
> ...



That's some good research...thanks for the followup.


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## outofmytree (Sep 28, 2009)

I will have my version of this rig on the saddle today so a couple of pics should be doable. Once it stops raining...........


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## outofmytree (Sep 29, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Any chance of getting a side pic of how the lines run throught that Fixe, please?



Took these today. Hope this is what you need.
















A couple of things I found with this rig. When using this combo of beeline and XTC fire it often slips if you don't get the wraps and braids spot on. If you shorten the length and add one wrap however, you get a bullet proof hitch. The third picture shows the knot with my full weight (85kg) and as you can see it "bends" the climbing line and grabs very well indeed. I use 5 wraps at the moment but I am trying 4 wraps in differing lengths to see if I can get a "perfect" balance of friction when pressure is applied and smooth slack tending.

As always, when tweaking my friction hitch, it will be low and slow.


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## pdqdl (Sep 29, 2009)

A traditional VT has 4 loops above, and several crossover wraps coming back down, with the legs alternating "underneath the crossover". In the photo's directly above, your friction hitch seems to avoid the crossovers completely. 

Is that so you will have a shorter friction hitch, you prefer it that way, or is this just an oversight? 

I find that alternating which leg of the E2E is at the bottom of the crossover is critical to getting a reliable knot.


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## outofmytree (Sep 29, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> A traditional VT has 4 loops above, and several crossover wraps coming back down, with the legs alternating "underneath the crossover". Your friction hitch seems to avoid the crossovers completely.
> 
> Is that so you will have a shorter friction hitch, you prefer it that way, or is this just an oversight? I find that alternating the crossovers is critical to getting a reliable knot.



I refer to this as a VT variation because that is the closest knot to its design. As you correctly point out, a "true" VT consists of wraps over braids, most commonly 4 over 3. The shorter and, IMO, more efficient shape came about purely by accident. I was tying mine on Fire and Jordan tied his on Blue Tongue. Fire is a much "slicker" rope and mine just wouldnt grab. I tried it with more wraps, less wraps, more braids less braids and then no braids. The improvement was dramatic. Another great climber looked it over and said "cut off another 40mm" and what you see is the result. Unlike normal VT's this hitch grabs all the way to the cambium saver. It works very well on SRT as a back up for my flipline when blocking down too. 

Another arb suggested ice would be a better prussik for VT's when climbing on XTC fire but I have another 10 metres of beeline so...... 

One last thing. This is still, IMO, an experimental rig. Treat it as you would any other new hitch and stay low.


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## tree MDS (Sep 29, 2009)

OOMT, it looks like theres no braid on one leg of your VT. Is that something you did on purpose?

Sorry, I didnt see the third page.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 29, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Took these today. Hope this is what you need.
> 
> ... [IMG] ...
> [IMG]http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110297&stc=1&d=1254231164
> ...



YEAH! good pix - you're well on your way - nice work.

I know this is a 'work in progress' but, a couple of questions, please:

I noticed no f8 stopping your dfl - not needed? or not needed yet?

Does your vt twist (or 'hockle') your line when decending?


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## pdqdl (Sep 29, 2009)

I haven't taken the time to do the necessary research, but your friction hitch is not (IMO) an experimental knot.

That is the original french prussic, pre-cursor to the VT. A simple 7 wraps around the line. Of course, however many wraps are taken is climbers preference.

Unless I am mistaken, the french prussic was found to unwrap down over itself when loaded to form the crossovers that we have come to be familiar with. The Valdetain Tresse (VT) is the same hitch, but alternates which leg of the E2E is at the bottom of the crossover; this helps the loops secure sooner and also locks the loops into position as to how far they unwind when loaded.

Another alternative: Look up pictures of Moss's friction hitch. I think it is one of the "named" friction hitches, but I don't remember the name. He makes the same 4 loops, then goes around the bottom leg of the E2E with the top leg, and then completely reverses the direction of rotation with the top leg crossovers down to the carabiner. That really secures the position while maintaining the easy slide of the traditional VT.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 29, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I haven't taken the time to do the necessary research, but your friction hitch is not (IMO) an experimental knot.
> 
> That is the original french prussic, pre-cursor to the VT. A simple 7 wraps around the line. Of course, however many wraps are taken is climbers preference.
> 
> ...



French Prusik vid:
http://www.ehow.com/video_4411919_tie-french-prusik-knot.html

If I remember right, Moss calls his tress an "XT".


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## pdqdl (Sep 29, 2009)

Well...sure. 

But that video is from Expert Village, which practically guarantees that the guy doing the video doesn't know what he is talking about. Just look at all the Tim Ard videos.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 29, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Well...sure.
> 
> But that video is from Expert Village, which practically guarantees that the guy doing the video doesn't know what he is talking about. Just look at all the Tim Ard videos.



:agree2::blush:
My appologies - I didn't notice the dreaded EV banner after the dreaded commercial.


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## TreEmergencyB (Sep 29, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> If I remember right, Moss calls his tress an "XT".



I belive your right i have stole his hitch and prefer it to the VT because it seems to stay together a lil bit better


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 30, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Took these today. Hope this is what you need.
> 
> ... [IMG] ...
> [IMG]http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110297&stc=1&d=1254231164
> ...





SINGLE-JACK said:


> YEAH! good pix - you're well on your way - nice work.
> 
> I know this is a 'work in progress' but, a couple of questions, please:
> 
> ...



Also, it looks like you're using a Denny Moorhouse (DMM, ISC) designed carabiner. *Just a note of caution*, the Fixe should be derated for that style biner. They *tend *to load one side plate more than the other - *Don't take it wrong - I'm quite sure it's fine for as a slack tender *- But your stopper through the back of the Fixe *may *load one side plate more heavily with that biner. Just something to keep an eye on during development of your rig. You might find an HMS to be a little more friendly.
From the Petzl literature:


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## outofmytree (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow, some great input guys.

Thanks for all the stuff you have posted. It is midnight here so I cannot do this justice but please feel free to critique as much as you wish. 

Single-Jack thanks for the fixee information that is well worth more research. You may notice that Jordans original rig had a different karabiner so I may need to change that too.

On a different note, I removed a Grevillea robusta today using this rig and my new (woot) Seqouia and boy what a combination. Sorry but we were too busy for photo's but it was a fun ride. 3km from the centre of the city and views for better than 10km in all directions. You wouldnt believe Silky Oaks were a Grevillea unless you saw one IRL. A 28 metre shrub!


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## outofmytree (Sep 30, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> YEAH! good pix - you're well on your way - nice work.
> 
> I know this is a 'work in progress' but, a couple of questions, please:
> 
> ...



No stopper on the dfl as it is not needed. I habitually tie my terminations with a tail EXACTLY the width of my left palm. It makes it easy to set and easy to check for creep. I switched to dfl from figure 8 on a bight 3 months ago and to date have noted no creep whatsoever.

Sadly the line does twist (hockle is a new word for me) on rapid descents but less than when I use a figure 8 descender! I do not have an answer for that phenomenon.


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## pdqdl (Sep 30, 2009)

I believe that I would use a triple overhand knot as a termination for the climbing line, rather than just a double. There were several other threads recently that discussed the probability of failure using just the double, and ways to prevent it.

Others here on AS have reported they use the triple by preference, too. It's just one more wrap than you are currently using, so why not?


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## outofmytree (Sep 30, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Also, it looks like you're using a Denny Moorhouse (DMM, ISC) designed carabiner. *Just a note of caution*, the Fixe should be derated for that style biner. They *tend *to load one side plate more than the other - *Don't take it wrong - I'm quite sure it's fine for as a slack tender *- But your stopper through the back of the Fixe *may *load one side plate more heavily with that biner. Just something to keep an eye on during development of your rig. You might find an HMS to be a little more friendly.
> From the Petzl literature:



Yawn, I must go to bed but just one.. more... post...snore.

I studied the thumbnail attached and saw the point immediately. I am trialling different neoprene washers like the one in picture to limit pulley movement which may well solve the issue if I can succesfully lock the pulley in one place where the line of rope extended out is parallel with the side plate. Do you think that is appropriate?

Ok, now I am definately going to bed.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 30, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Also, it looks like you're using a Denny Moorhouse (DMM, ISC) designed carabiner. *Just a note of caution*, the Fixe should be derated for that style biner. They *tend *to load one side plate more than the other - *Don't take it wrong - I'm quite sure it's fine for as a slack tender *- But your stopper through the back of the Fixe *may *load one side plate more heavily with that biner. Just something to keep an eye on during development of your rig. *You might find an HMS to be a little more friendly.*
> From the Petzl literature:



*CLARIFICATION:*
*HMS* carabiner *- the nearly constant radius at the top results in nearly neutral side forces on connections at the top - recommended for Munter Hitch (Italian Hitch - down under) and relatively good for the Fixe - works similar to the oval shown in the Petzl literature. Just two examples (there are many):
*STEEL: *http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Steel/Carabiner-293




*ALUMINUM: *http://www.sherrilltree.com/Professional-Gear/Aluminum/Carabiner-270





_*HMS stands for something like "Halbmastwurfsicherung" and is translated from German to English as "Half of a Clove Hitch". _


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 30, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I believe that I would use a *triple overhand knot *as a termination for the climbing line, rather than just a double. There were several other threads recently that discussed the probability of failure using just the double, and ways to prevent it.
> 
> Others here on AS have reported they use the triple by preference, too. It's just one more wrap than you are currently using, so why not?



:agree2:
If you're going to use a DFL (or DOK) for your termination there's no reason not to use a TFL (or TOK). Takes one more second to tie and is a lot more secure.

I think you can get by with doubles on your BeeLine if you whip and frap the ends - that is, once you're happy with the length.


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## outofmytree (Oct 4, 2009)

I hear you on the triple for terminations. I have noticed no creep since I started using the double but the ease of adding one more wrap makes the argument one of laziness over commonsense. Guess I will be climbing on a triple fishermans for a termination.


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## brianks2 (Oct 30, 2009)

*Update*

I tried the VT and I dont care for the self-minding properties of it. I switched to an XT which seems much safer to me (thanks Moss). 

I need suggestions on ascending technique though. I dont have any mechanical ascenders so, what are my options using a foot loop prusik. I am trying the XT setup (similar to Moss' setup) on an NT VI Special harness.

The issue I am having is that i dont get enough travel using a foot loop with the XT. I like to get at least 18" of vertical travel with each step.

Any and all suggestions welcome.

By the way, thanks to all for your help on this subject.


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