# One man operation vs employees



## jrcat (May 15, 2013)

How many of you work solo or have employees or are an employee? I find that working by myself works for me. On occasion I will have some help but otherwise I am solo. I worked for 2 years with a tree service/chipping/harvesting operation and before that it was site work. I enjoyed what I did for those companies but Always felt I could do more for myself by working for myself. 

I can see the advantages of having a helper (increased production) but it has its back draws as well (payroll and taxes and higher insurance rates and so on). I can also see being able to "split up" by sending a helper to one job while I work on another. 

I find myself wanting a second machine more than having help. I am just not sure yet what I want that second machine to be ie: dozer or skidder or (and you may think Im nuts for this) a 4x4 tractor with a loader on it.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 15, 2013)

yep, jus me and pop, he only drives the truck. I've hired help before, but it never worked out well.
least this way I hafta yell at maself when somthins not right.  really there ain't no good woods help here. guys that were any good either got they own job or to ol to do it any more.
we dinosours I guess, but I love my work. :msp_biggrin:


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## northmanlogging (May 15, 2013)

The logging is registered as owner/operator. But I have a partner that is "contracted" and every once in a blue moon the wifey/war dept will come out and help, or at least hang out and make sure I don't get hurt while alone on some of the really sketchy stuff... Otherwise its just me.

The wifey also does the books kinda...


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## treeslayer2003 (May 15, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> The logging is registered as owner/operator. But I have a partner that is "contracted" and every once in a blue moon the wifey/war dept will come out and help, or at least hang out and make sure I don't get hurt while alone on some of the really sketchy stuff... Otherwise its just me.
> 
> The wifey also does the books kinda...



lol funny cus its true. yea that's what I did with a guy, sub contract but I still couldn't get it done right......war dept.....LOL


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## madhatte (May 15, 2013)

I've been a solo contractor, loved the work, couldn't make a living at it because I'm the world's worst boss. Sometimes you have to #### up to find out what you're really bad at. I'm actually happy to have a boss now since that means I don't have to do that thing I'm bad at. "Management" is a skill I may someday be able to learn but I certainly have no natural aptitude for.


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## northmanlogging (May 15, 2013)

We work pretty well together most times, there was some learning curve to get over at first, as always. We'll get together and hammer out the details before we start a job, if its tree service stuff, he's in charge, logging I'm in charge... If either one of us don't like how something looks we both stop and reconsider or walk away from it. That policy has kept us from getting hurt and kept us working in the woods for 6? years now... 

Some jobs I do solo, some he does solo, depends on the work load, and the pucker factor


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## bustedup (May 16, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> We work pretty well together most times, there was some learning curve to get over at first, as always. We'll get together and hammer out the details before we start a job, if its tree service stuff, he's in charge, logging I'm in charge... If either one of us don't like how something looks we both stop and reconsider or walk away from it. That policy has kept us from getting hurt and kept us working in the woods for 6? years now...
> 
> Some jobs I do solo, some he does solo, depends on the work load, and the pucker factor



Knowing when to walk away is a great thing and an attitude to be proud off.


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## scottmphoto (May 18, 2013)

Generally, I work by my self. My son comes out and helps me load and every once in a while he'll help ,e limb, buck and pile up the brush. It is safer having a second person in the woods with you, but I like working alone, for the solitude and not having to watch out for someone else when felling the tree.


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## Oldtimer (May 18, 2013)

Worked alone logging for the last 15 years, except the few times I had help, maybe a year's worth total.

Working alone in the woods sucks. I find I am more motivated if there's company on the ride in / at work. The trouble is finding someone who can earn more than just their own pay. Takes a working sumbiatch to earn you money besides their own pay. Not many of them out there looking for work...and the one's that are....are looking for work for a reason..


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## Oldtimer (May 18, 2013)

Just to clarify:

Working alone in the woods sucks...but not as much as working anywhere else does.


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## twochains (May 18, 2013)

jrcat- there are so many aspects to your post that if I explained everything I have learned in the last 19 years...I would be going in circles.

1) I remember when I could throw $15 in my one ton, be in the woods within 20 mins from the house, cut and shoulder out a load of ERC and be back at the house by 2 o'clock with a couple hundred in my pocket (my profit minus truck and LO share). Gas is way higher now, saws wear out, trucks break down, and your body can't shoulder logs for much more than 12 years...well that also just depends...I still do it every now and then but my full time carrying days are hopefully done.

2) If you get so fricken big that you have several employees, lots of debt in equiptment, etc. then you find yourself behind a telephone selling product, cruising timber, buying timber, fixing equipment that is over worked due to trying to make production to cover your overhead...and not to mention you might not be doing what you set out to do in the first place.

There are 2 scenarios, for me personally, I like cutting for a crew and being an employee. I don't have the stress of searching for timber, equipment issues, employee issues...I just do what I know needs to be done and get a stack of hundies at the end of the week...fairly simple thought process. 

The thing about being an employee is I always seem land in a crew that is family oriented. That crap blows...every family operation is the same...always someone NOT doing as much as you and you get all ass hurt over family members of the company getting away with stuff like showing up late and leaving early, being a total POS, secretaries of the company blowing off the boss so her husband who is the yard foreman gets to basically sit on his ass and get paid for being at home...awesome!!...even better if you walk in on it! (everytime I think about it, I go to a REALLY REALLY dark place in my mind and think about taking a ball bat to that former boss' skull...and the secretary)...and that is ZERO way to live your life and I will prolly be scarred with PTSD for the rest of my life.

So to sum it up...I generally am NOT a people person (just a forum junky) who would rather be left alone in the woods and have a paycheck coming plus let someone else take all the other responsibilities that go with running a business. Put a chainsaw in my hand and I am "golden"


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## treeslayer2003 (May 18, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Just to clarify:
> 
> Working alone in the woods sucks...but not as much as working anywhere else does.



no way I could have said it better 

here's another one; the worst day in the woods beats the best day in the factory


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2013)

I'm currently sore, bruised, dehydrated, I'm sure I got cut somewhere... But I'm in a far better mood then when I got home yesterday...


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## treeslayer2003 (May 18, 2013)

yup, sraps bruises, flat tires, busted hydro lines, even a empty wallet. still nothing i'd rather do


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## jrcat (May 18, 2013)

Well I've been cleaning up logging roads now for 3 days about 3 miles worth of back and forth and back and forth up hill down hill mud holes and tree stumps. My back ,neck and arse are killing me but I'm fine with it. I would have taken pic but I didnt think you guys would want to see dirt roads. When not on the dozer I looked at 3 more pieces of timber. One was a complete disaster ...high graded to beat all heck. The next was a 40 acre piece of damn near solid soft maple and ash I think Im going to take it as it can be cut down to 18" on the stump, I am thinking volume trumps quality on this one. The last was a 5 acre clear cut thick with soft maple ash and hickory. This one I dont know about I have the feeling they are going to want me to cut it for the wood. Theres a ton of small trees there too 6"to 10" dba. 

All in all i would still rather being doing this than anything else.


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## redprospector (May 19, 2013)

Whether you work alone, or hire a crew is an individual decision that is made from job to job. (Sometimes you feel like a nut...Sometimes you don't). Both have their pro's & con's.
I am working alone right now, but when on bigger jobs I hire a small crew so the work is done in a timely manner. The bottom line at the end of the year is what really matters. I've found that when working a crew, I get more jobs done, I have a lot more expenses. What I don't have is a lot more money to call my own when it's all said & done. Oh, did I mention the extra headache's...a lot of them.

Whether you choose to work alone or hire a crew, one thing my Dad taught me is that if you're going to be your own boss you had better be the toughest boss you've ever worked for, or you likely won't make it. 

Andy


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## redprospector (May 19, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> no way I could have said it better
> 
> here's another one;* the worst day in the woods beats the best day in the factory*



I love working in the woods too, but I can see that you've never been hit by a tree (not much worse than that).

Andy


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## treeslayer2003 (May 19, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I love working in the woods too, but I can see that you've never been hit by a tree (not much worse than that).
> 
> Andy



no, lucky I guess. been hit by plenty a sticks never a tree. most don't make it through that. had a cousin crushed by a load. glad trips are no more


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## jrcat (May 19, 2013)

I have learned to slow down some in the woods myself. Haste makes waste or so they say. I have never been hit by a tree either. just the random twig coming through the brush guards and cracking me in the face when its 10 degrees outside and my face is numb lol. Thats always enough to wake a person up. 


I hope to move again tomorrow. I cleaned up all the roads on this job I was going to help cut on ...the farmer that owns it has corn in now and that stuff is sacred... so no equipment on his land for now.. Last I knew corn didnt grow in the woods but hey what do I know lol. The guy wanted water bars put in on a steep down hill grade but it was a short grade so I put in a drain at the bottom. Oh well it only take a few minutes to throw one in if I have to. 

I hate this in between jobs feeling. I dont mind pushing dirt but it just pays the bills really.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 19, 2013)

jrcat said:


> I have learned to slow down some in the woods myself. Haste makes waste or so they say. I have never been hit by a tree either. just the random twig coming through the brush guards and cracking me in the face when its 10 degrees outside and my face is numb lol. Thats always enough to wake a person up.
> 
> 
> I hope to move again tomorrow. I cleaned up all the roads on this job I was going to help cut on ...the farmer that owns it has corn in now and that stuff is sacred... so no equipment on his land for now.. Last I knew corn didnt grow in the woods but hey what do I know lol. The guy wanted water bars put in on a steep down hill grade but it was a short grade so I put in a drain at the bottom. Oh well it only take a few minutes to throw one in if I have to.
> ...



good to have sumtin ta do tween jobs. we liked to starved after sandy last fall.


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## twochains (May 19, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> no, lucky I guess. been hit by plenty a sticks never a tree. most don't make it through that. had a cousin crushed by a load. glad trips are no more



You talkin' about trip bunks on a "bob" truck? They are still around down here in the sticks. Most are chained off but I do know of one truck that is still a functioning "side loader" and they still trip to unload. About 10 years ago there were (3) incidents of multiple deaths from trip bunks in the next county over from me...all in one year!


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## treeslayer2003 (May 19, 2013)

twochains said:


> You talkin' about trip bunks on a "bob" truck? They are still around down here in the sticks. Most are chained off but I do know of one truck that is still a functioning "side loader" and they still trip to unload. About 10 years ago there were (3) incidents of multiple deaths from trip bunks in the next county over from me...all in one year!



trips on a pole trailer. I weld um up on every thing we get. they about illigel now anyway or should be. he let um go and one didn't, walked around to see why, then it went. no viewing.
long ago now. dumb mistake, but I weld um up good all the same.


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## jrcat (May 19, 2013)

Sounds dangerous. I have never seen a trip loader in action. I've had myself in some scary spots on a self loader a time or 2 .


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## treeslayer2003 (May 19, 2013)

jrcat said:


> Sounds dangerous. I have never seen a trip loader in action. I've had myself in some scary spots on a self loader a time or 2 .



trip stakes, they fly down ta unload. nobody here does that anymore. big loaders now and all.

I bet self loaders are a bit tricky, no cab. least short logs, heel a big turn a whole trees over head and wonder, when did I grease this thing last.


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## Gologit (May 19, 2013)

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How far above your stake tips are you guys allowed to load? We can go to 14 feet total height as long as everything is well saddled.

Sometimes the loader gets a bit carried away. The top of the exhaust stack in the first picture is 12 feet from the ground. Think this load might be a little high?


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## jrcat (May 19, 2013)

Yeah Bob we'd get our arses filed for that here in NY. not taller than 13'6" and cant be above the poles. also cant be over 80,000lbs on combinations without permits and cant be above 72,000lbs on tri axle self loaders without permits and enough of a bridge. There are a few guys in my area with quad axle self loaders .. but even with that they are only good to 77,000lbs with permits. So basically you could be axled to the hilt and still be over loaded and be under your load carrying capacity. NY sucks.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 19, 2013)

ha! looks like the ol man loaded that. he ain't happy unless they piled up like that. must be from his pileing haulin days in the 60s. we not really spossed ta go over stakes, but they don't bug us long as not to crazy. they might stop that here. surely would in del.


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## jrcat (May 19, 2013)

30 years ago in NY I guess ifin you had the axles you could carry what ever as long as it wasnt to high. Now they will pinch you on 2 or 3" over height and 1000lbs over weight. The state needs the $$$ I guess.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 19, 2013)

hey bob, always wondered, ya'll must have strict length law? we stretch pole trailers pretty long here. 75 foot trees go down the road often here.


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## Kodiakmac (May 19, 2013)

G'day. New to this forum, but no better place to start than this topic - it's a sore spot with me.

I just can't afford to hire a hand or two here in Ontario.

It's not so much the wages, but the gov't labour and safety regulations, mandatory workmen's compensation insurance, and other employer-paid premiums/benefits that keep me in the bush all alone.


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## Gologit (May 19, 2013)

We're still limited to 80 grand on 5 axles provided we have the bridge. Boosters and tag axles don't buy us any more carrying capacity so hardly anyone uses them. I'm surprised that California hasn't started requiring stake extensions on high loads but so far they've left us alone. The commercial cops watch for badly saddled loads though and that's an expensive ticket.

Back on topic...I've gotten big and spread out a couple of times with crews and machinery but I was always happiest staying small. The best part of logging is actually being in the woods and the bigger you get the less time you'll spend there.
Lots of men and equipment don't always guarantee a commensurate increase in net profit. Sometimes it's the opposite. I got big enough that I was spending more time on the phone and in meetings than I was spending in the woods. And, after I paid all the bills and wages and taxes and permit fees and the insurance people, I had about the same amount of money in my pocket as I would have made running a crew for somebody else.
I had a good cost control and a good bookkeeper but the amount of money I _wasn't_ making surprised me sometimes.


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## Gologit (May 19, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> hey bob, always wondered, ya'll must have strict length law? we stretch pole trailers pretty long here. 75 foot trees go down the road often here.



We haul poles too and they're usually exempt from the length law. As long as at least 2/3 of the total length of the load is supported at each end and it's flagged you're good to go. There's always quite a bit of rear overhang with poles but not much height.

The trucks are limited to length of course and the logs are usually bucked to specified lengths depending on the mill and the species.


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## rwoods (May 20, 2013)

Gologit said:


> [/URL]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gologit, I know most real loggers can't watch Axemen without getting nauseated but tonight they ran a clip of one of those huge old trucks (the ones with the planetary axles) that had a "load and half - 50,000 lbs over etc., etc." when it sideswiped a parked pickup truck. As the driver/bossman was surveying the damage the side let go and finished off the pickup for good. I don't know if it was staged or not, but it reminded me of my upbringing to never stand, walk or drive beside a loaded log truck. Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (May 20, 2013)

Kodiakmac said:


> G'day. New to this forum, but no better place to start than this topic - it's a sore spot with me.
> 
> I just can't afford to hire a hand or two here in Ontario.
> 
> It's not so much the wages, but the gov't labour and safety regulations, mandatory workmen's compensation insurance, and other employer-paid premiums/benefits that keep me in the bush all alone.



welcome to a.s. Kodiak, yup same here unless find a way ta call it sub contract. like gologit says I've tried it both ways, way simpler this way.


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## Gologit (May 20, 2013)

rwoods said:


> Gologit, I know most real loggers can't watch Axemen without getting nauseated but tonight they ran a clip of one of those huge old trucks (the ones with the planetary axles) that had a "load and half - 50,000 lbs over etc., etc." when it sideswiped a parked pickup truck. As the driver/bossman was surveying the damage the side let go and finished off the pickup for good. I don't know if it was staged or not, but it reminded me of my upbringing to never stand, walk or drive beside a loaded log truck. Ron



Like a lot of stuff on AxMen that was obviously staged. But, not being too close to a load of logs is a good plan, too.


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## Kodiakmac (May 20, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> welcome to a.s. Kodiak, yup same here _*unless find a way ta call it sub contract.*_ like gologit says I've tried it both ways, way simpler this way.



Buddy of mine tried that and ran into a few problems. First of all, it was hard to find enterprising young fellows who had the initiative to work that way - most want all the government-mandated 'perks'. When he finally did find a couple of men, the Canada Revenue Agency audited one of them and tied him and my Buddy up for weeks of paper-work and questions. 

The CRA was insisting that it was an actual employee/employer relationship - so the young guys should _not_ be entitled to write off their pickups and travel expenses, or, to claim a small office space in their homes. Don't know what it's like in the US, but up here, when the CRA takes a position, you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

And now, in this cash-starved province, our Workmen's Compensation fund has unfunded liabilities of 14 Billion dollars. So there's talk that the gov't is going to also make it mandatory for independent operators to pay the substantial WC premiums. That'll be the last straw for me. 

I'm thinking of getting some big posters made up with pictures of farmers, ranchers, loggers, small business owners, and other private sector workers going about their daily work. And in big bold print:

A QUESTION FOR POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS:

WHERE WILL YOUR PAYCHEQUE COME FROM WHEN YOU PUT ALL OF US OUT OF BUSINESS?


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## bustedup (May 20, 2013)

Guess the old saying really true.......Only two things in life certain........death and taxes .....in either order


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## treeslayer2003 (May 20, 2013)

yup Kodiak, its about the same down here. tax tax and more tax. I had to prove my son existed to the irs. my bottom line I won't tell, but it sure is funny compared to the gross. funnier every year really. ever wonder what they'll eat and were they'll live without people like us.


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## Oldtimer (May 20, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Like a lot of stuff on AxMen that was obviously staged. But, not being too close to a load of logs is a good plan, too.



Gee, you mean like when that loud mouth turkey neck "Coatsy" deliberately lost that trailer half full of nasty mulch wood?


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## jrcat (May 20, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Gee, you mean like when that loud mouth turkey neck "Coatsy" deliberately lost that trailer half full of nasty mulch wood?



You mean that isnt a common rookie mistake like they said it was? lol ... Watching that show makes me want to choke someone.....then puke.....


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## bustedup (May 20, 2013)

jrcat said:


> You mean that isnt a common rookie mistake like they said it was? lol ... Watching that show makes me want to choke someone.....then puke.....



Watch the weather channel after ax men .....it'll take ya mind of it :msp_w00t:


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## jrcat (May 20, 2013)

Cant go from bs and puke to drooling... that just doesnt jive man


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## ShearHeadMS (May 20, 2013)

Hey guys, me and a buddy of mine have started cutting wood. We use a 4X4 tractor that I beefed up a little, a 30 foot gooseneck trailer, 3/4 ton dodge, and a variety of saws ranging from a 880 to a 280, I thought we may get lucky and maybe clear 100 bucks a peice after expenses and the owners cut, but I was wrong, me and my friend are clearing 500-600 on a bad week... We got set up with a custom sawmill who pays near about twice what the mill pays for saw logs, best part is I live 1 mile from him. Now the paper wood is trucked 20 miles to a local wood yard, going price is 23-25 a ton. Needless to say we stay local and don't have all the head aces the huge chipping company down the road has, they want us to hand fell 500 trees in July and are coming up with a price for us, I love working alone and staying small.


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## jrcat (May 20, 2013)

ShearHeadMS said:


> Hey guys, me and a buddy of mine have started cutting wood. We use a 4X4 tractor that I beefed up a little, a 30 foot gooseneck trailer, 3/4 ton dodge, and a variety of saws ranging from a 880 to a 280, I thought we may get lucky and maybe clear 100 bucks a peice after expenses and the owners cut, but I was wrong, me and my friend are clearing 500-600 on a bad week... We got set up with a custom sawmill who pays near about twice what the mill pays for saw logs, best part is I live 1 mile from him. Now the paper wood is trucked 20 miles to a local wood yard, going price is 23-25 a ton. Needless to say we stay local and don't have all the head aces the huge chipping company down the road has, they want us to hand fell 500 trees in July and are coming up with a price for us, I love working alone and staying small.



Good job! I hope it keeps working out for ya.


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## ShearHeadMS (May 20, 2013)

Thanks to a bunch of you guys giving good advice we finally got our crap straight, we charge a fair rate, and the older timber people love us due to the fact we don't bring a bunch of equipment and tear everything up and leave everything in a mess! You'd be surprised with what honesty and standing by your word can help you in this business!


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## bustedup (May 20, 2013)

ShearHeadMS said:


> Hey guys, me and a buddy of mine have started cutting wood. We use a 4X4 tractor that I beefed up a little, a 30 foot gooseneck trailer, 3/4 ton dodge, and a variety of saws ranging from a 880 to a 280, I thought we may get lucky and maybe clear 100 bucks a peice after expenses and the owners cut, but I was wrong, me and my friend are clearing 500-600 on a bad week... We got set up with a custom sawmill who pays near about twice what the mill pays for saw logs, best part is I live 1 mile from him. Now the paper wood is trucked 20 miles to a local wood yard, going price is 23-25 a ton. Needless to say we stay local and don't have all the head aces the huge chipping company down the road has, they want us to hand fell 500 trees in July and are coming up with a price for us, I love working alone and staying small.



Good for ya bro stay safe and things will work out


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## jrcat (May 20, 2013)

It helps big time.. simply doing what you say you will do.


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## bustedup (May 20, 2013)

That is true as that's how you build a good rep and word of mouth in this industry means way more than any expensive advertising imo


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## ShearHeadMS (May 20, 2013)

Yeah, seems like it would be easy, but for some it doesn't come naturally, the job I'm in right now is a basic case of the land owner coughs the loggers taking extra wood out of a thinning job. And all the larger hardwoods that the loggers thought they were going to get but didn't have been run into and suffered severe damage, the guy at the mill said he can still use them for something so I'm not arguing, but tearing up profitable timber so no one else can get it is pretty sorry


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## bustedup (May 20, 2013)

sounds like some payback going on hmmmmmmmm


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