# Starting a diesel in freezing weather ?



## Madman Mark

I remember having to use a can of "eether" (spelled wrong I'm sure) sprayed into the muffler but I hear of people lighting small fires under a skidder etc... sometimes to get them started, what is the purpose of this?
How cold does it have to be before I can't start a tractor/skidder without keeping it plugged in over night ? What if its parked somewhere where it cant be plugged in ? Will a boost from my truck start it ? 
I want to get this figured out now before I have to deal with it.


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## Lumberjack

If it has glow plugs then don't use "eether" because the glow plugs can ignite the eether in the intake and make a big back-fire on you. I think that there is an eether equivelant for diesels though. 

The purpose (I guess) is to warm the battery up to get it working better and to heat the oil and other lubricants.

Batteries work best when they are warm, their output is greater. I am not sure of the number but there is a point that a fully charged battery will put out nothing because it is so cold that the chemical reaction can't occur. 

A jump off from your truck would help, just make sure you have good cables so you don't fry them.


Carl


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## Jumper

Fully charged batteries, functioning glowplugs, and a block heater work wonders. If it is really cold consider battery blankets as well.


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## Tom Dunlap

When I had a diesel in my clam truck I added block heaters on both sides of the engine. Get a magnetic heater to put underneath the battery or a battery blanket. I also put a magnetic heater on the oil pan. All of the heaters were ganged together and plugged into a HEAVY duty timer. I set the timer to start about three hours before we got to the shop. The truck also had an ether injector mounted on it. The ether came in a container that looked like a propane tank like I used for my soldering torch. There were tubes that went down to nozzles right in the center of the intake manifold. Touching the button on the dash would squirt ether right into the intake manifold. The truck would always start with just ether but I w0uld plug it in to be gentle on the engine.

If you aren't near power you could get a generator to make juice. Cheaper to run a generator all night than put wear on the engine or risk it not starting.

Here's another sure-fire start up method. 

ONe hose will tee into a pressure hose in your pickup or personal vehicle. Find the hose coming out of the water pump and going to your heater core. Then tee into a return line to the radiator. Do the same on the diesel. Use hydraulic quick couplers on the ends of the hoses. I mounted the female connectors on the engines and made up a pair of jumpers with male ends on the hoses. 

It's been a few years since I had the system but I think that I jumped the pressurized line, from the water pump, on the warm engine into the pressure side of the cold engine. Then connect the other line. You'll make a transfusion of warm and cold. In short order you'll start a warm engine.

You might look around on the diesel to see if there are any ports on the engine block that you could plumb into. Ideally, one on the bottom and the outlet on the opposite side, top, would be the best.

When I had this setup, the longest I had to run the warm up was about 25 minutes.

I learned this from a buddy who worked in Fairbanks as a heavy truck mechanic when the Pipeline was being built.

Tom


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## Franz

"Here's another sure-fire start up method. 

ONe hose will tee into a pressure hose in your pickup or personal vehicle. Find the hose coming out of the water pump and going to your heater core. Then tee into a return line to the radiator. Do the same on the diesel. Use hydraulic quick couplers on the ends of the hoses. I mounted the female connectors on the engines and made up a pair of jumpers with male ends on the hoses. 

It's been a few years since I had the system but I think that I jumped the pressurized line, from the water pump, on the warm engine into the pressure side of the cold engine. Then connect the other line. You'll make a transfusion of warm and cold. In short order you'll start a warm engine.

You might look around on the diesel to see if there are any ports on the engine block that you could plumb into. Ideally, one on the bottom and the outlet on the opposite side, top, would be the best."

BE VERY VERY CAREFUL using this method. 3 serious and very expensive repairs can occurr if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing. There are different antifreezes in use today, and if they mix you have BIG expensive problems. The second thing that can occurr, if this process isn't done properly is developing an air bubble in a cooling system that can be a major pain in the a$$ to get out. The third problem comes from thermal shock when you circulate the cold coolant from the Diesel directly into the hot engine of the pickup.
When using a pickup to preheat a heat exchanger plumbed into the pickup's heater circuit will prevent all of the above problems.
A safer method is to employ a small propane point of use water heater to prewarm the diesel, or a propane fired diesel engine heater.
Using ether to start any engine is always a last resort because ether washes the lube oil off the cylinder walls. Propane from a Bernz-O-Matic torch is far safer than ether, and safer for the engine.
Another safe procedure is to employ jumper cables to the diesel for a few minutes to warm the batterys up before starting the machine. Do NOT leave the batterys connected to the truck when starting because most equipment had a much larger alternator than the truck, and you can blow the truck alternator when the diesel starts.


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## Tom Dunlap

Franz,

You brought up some points that I would like to discuss.

"BE VERY VERY CAREFUL using this method. 3 serious and very expensive repairs
can occurr if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing. There are different
antifreezes in use today, and if they mix you have BIG expensive problems."

Valid, but I ran the same AF in all of my engines. 



"The
second thing that can occurr, if this process isn't done properly is developing an
air bubble in a cooling system that can be a major pain in the a$$ to get out."

This never happened to me once after using it for four Minneapolis winters. Since I used good quality guick connects there is little chance of air entering. Notice "little" not "no" chance  I've had to bleed out air bubble before. Not a big deal but a nuisance. The easiest way is to run with the radiator cap loosened. Other wise, start to bleed off at the highest heater hose.



"The
third problem comes from thermal shock when you circulate the cold coolant from
the Diesel directly into the hot engine of the pickup."

Do you know from experience that this is valid? When I consider the thermo dynamics it seems to be a small consideration. You forget that water will only get to be 32 degrees not ambiant air temperature. With AF in the water it might get down to the protection level that the mix is blended. Even so, the volume of colder AF from the cold engine into the warm one through a 3/4" hose is small enough to make the thermal shock a small issue it seems to me. I never ran the warm engine at anything above idle. When I first started this system I would connect, then jump back in the van for coffee. I would watch the temp gauge to see if the colder fluid would drop the gauge. I never saw more than a needles width drop. The heater never changed either.

"A safer method is to employ a small propane point of use water heater to prewarm
the diesel,"

Wouldn't the cold water damage this heater too? After the heater warmed up and started to circulate, cold water would enter a warm heat exchanger. Granted, if their was damage, the heater would be cheaper to replace than the warm engine in the other vehicle. Do these units have circulating pumps? If so, we're back to using block heaters and battery warmers aren't we?

Tom


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## Franz

Thermal shock IS becoming a problem with newer engines, due to the plastic and aluminum manifolds coming into play. Look at some of the plastic and rubber gasketing systems used on newer engines, and you can almost see the potential problems.
On systems where the heater core and cold engine are connected in paralell, thermal shock potential is minimal, but so is warming on the cold engine. Maximum thermal shock potential exists when you use a hot diesel pickup truck to heat up something large, like a 600 ci Cat, and there are guys doing that. Since you can build a heat exchanger for under $50, and eliminate potentila problems, it's the way to go in my book.
While loosening a radiator cap on the hot truck may minimize airlock possibility, I won't take that chance. I have some pictures of a guy here who instantly got to look like a boiled lobster by doing exactly that.
As far as using a point of use propane water heater, it's easy since the normal convection current in the coolant will heat an engine up very well, if the coolant circuit is properly built. It's also essentially performing the same function as a block heater installed in the engine. Plumbing is the same as when using one of the single cylinder generator/hotbox units found on road tractors.


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## Crofter

*Ether?*

Bad news in general. Especially if not properly used. I have had my fingers on a bent connecting rod from a 353 Detroit diesel that was the result of ether. If there are gloplugs or manifold gloheaters, ether is a no go for reasons mentioned previous posts. Make sure the engine is cranking over before you start to spray. Even so there are sometimes some shock load rattles that have to be bad for bearings and piston rings and lands as it fires up. Air cooled diesels are hard to get heat into and lots of equipment has been burned up by trying to put a fire under the skid pan. The inevitable oil leaks and wood debris in there does a wonderful job of a total machine warmup!

Frank


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## Tom Dunlap

Franz,

Thanks for taking the time to share those details. All good points.

Tom


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## Madman Mark

The tractor is used in the woods so it's far away from any electricity.
A generator would eventually get stolen by hunters or ATVer's.
What if I just took the battery out at the end of the day when I knew it was going to be a really cold night ? I could bring it home and leave it inside overnight. Also keep it from getting stolen.
So should ether never be used or only on a diesel with no glow plugs ? I thought all diesels had glowplugs, guess I've got alot to learn.
You mentioned a torch, what do I heat up, the battery or the oil pan or both?
Let me guess, a battery blanket needs electricity, right ?


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## UNBforester

A mechanic at previous company in Detroit used to pour a small amount of gasoline on a rag and cover the air intake with it. He said it was better for the engine than ether was but I'm not sure what effect gasoline fumes would have in a high compression diseal.
Secondly, some of the skidder operators use a propane tank with a "torch" on it to warm the pan up on a cold morning. You may be able to get them at Atlantic Cat in Dartmouth or some other heavy equipment dealer.

Dave


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## Tom Dunlap

Be careful of using an open flame unless you want to have a large weiner roast. I don't know about your heavy machinery but mine have always had a decent covering of grease and oil grime.

Here's another heater solution.

You will need power so a generator might be in order. 

I have a kerosene 40k BTu heater. The outlet is 7" so I use a reducer to bring it to 6". Attach a ninety degree elbow.

Take a section of square or rectangular heating duct and box both ends. These come in a variety of lengths, you'll know how long a piece to buy. 

On opposite ends of the box, cut out holes that are just a smidgen over 6" dia. 

Slip the el from the heater in one hole and slide the other hole in under the engine. Fire up the heater. Within minutes the engine will be warm. You do need to be careful of melting wires/hoses, etc. Use good sense and place the outlet directly under the oil pan.

Sometimes I have to use this for my chipper. I have some short pieces of tubing to add as risers to get the heat right up on the oil pan and closer to the block. After and ice storm the chipper was skinned with ice so I used longer sections and els to direct the heat around the engine to melt the ice before starting.

The heater can double as a body warmer too. With a tarp setup to block the wind you can warm up and dry gloves too.

A pilot friend of mine uses a similar setup on his plane.

Tom


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## Madman Mark

I would imagine that a small propane heater used for camping would work just as well as anything.
There's no open flame to catch any grease or oil on fire and you could just set it on a block of wood to get it at just the right height.
Some are even safe to use in a tent so they should be pretty safe.
Make sure you have a fire extinguisher handy.
I'd rather lose a days pay instead of using a torch or lighting a fire underneath and risk losing it all.
Any opinions ?


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## Tom Dunlap

Those small propane heaters don't give off enough heat to warm an engine. 

They really shouldn't be used inside tents either. They give off carbon monoxide and other nasties. Without good ventilation you could kill your self. 

Tom


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## lync

Take the battery out at the end of the day. Store it inside at home or shop overnite. Batteries over 32 degrees have almost double the cranking power. 
Corey


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## kf6ivi

Take a look at this web site. They make a coolant heater that runs off diesel from the tractor or truck. I am think about get one for my truck.

http://www.espar.com/index.htm

Ethan


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## iworkit

*Hot*

I had my problems with cold starts you guys won't believe me on this but pouring hot on your engine worked for me before try it. You can connect your garden hose to your sink that could be in your laundry room and theirs your hot water.


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## DDM

Hmmmm what happens when that water freezes all over your engine?


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## ASETECH

*Diesel cold starts*

I'm a mechanic with 15 + years around diesels. There are really three issues you need to think about in cold weather starting.

1. Use fuel additive to keep fuel from gelling. Diesel contains paraphine, when it gets cold it gels, will not flow through filters or lines. add additive before it really cold. Many oil companies preblend durung the winter.

2. Diesels use heat from compression to start not spark. When the air is cold and the engine is cold it's much more difficult to build the heat required to light one off. That's why you have block heaters. Block heaters were not made to heat up a cold engine. When you can pplug them in hot and leave em overnite do so, that's how they are meant to be used. Yes they will heat a cold engine but it takes a long time on the bigger engines. If you have glow pugs they can help alot.

3. cranking speed and batteries. Because you need the heat from compression its important to have a good enough electrical system to crank a cold engine fast enough to build some heat on the compression stroke. If you have a slow crank forget it. All the heat in the world won't start a slow cranking diesel.


Eethier. Be careful with it. You can spray it in the intake to help. It will make it a lot harder to crank. DO NOT load up the intake with it. It's hrd on enignes and can cause engine damage (glazed liners which lowers cranking temperatures making harder starts). Allow glow plugs to cool before you use either. Most glow plug engine have precups, the textbooks say not to use either in precup eninges. WHen they are outside you know what happens. Just be careful, a little goes a long way. If it bascfires and blows some out the intake keep cranking it. Pull the fire back into the engine. I like to have 2 people so I can tell the guy running the starter to keep cranking if it backfires. 

Hope this hepls, sorry about the bad spelling. I'm a mechanic not and english teacher.


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## Vman

my cousin has 2 Peterbilts and apparently this is what the truck drivers do during freezing temps when diesel fuel gells-up. they add 5 gallons kerosene to the tanks which liquifies the gelled-up diesel fuel. 
i do not know how many gallons total their tanks hold, so i do not know the proportion of kero-to-diesel.


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## mini kahuna

I think an electrical block heater with a small generator would be the easiest setup,it only takes an hour or so to take the chill off the block.
I work on diesels,ether keeps me employed down here.
their used to be a block heater that used propane to heat up the coolant,no electricity needed but I haven't seen one for a while.
the sweet setup is the heater that runs off your machines diesel,it taps right into the fuel system.


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## 5555555

In a pinch, I used to use HEET in an aluminum pie plate under the oil pan to start a skidder on a real cold day. The HEET burns long enough to heat the engine and battery and helped cold starting a lot. It's also very cheap and portable...

Now the warnings - HEET, primarily alchohol, burns without visible flame in the daylight. It may not look lit but can burn badly. Secondly, you need to keep your equipment clean to use this method, our starting the skidder won't be your big problem.

Jim


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## Sprig

Ditto on the ether usage, don't use it if you don't really have to. I spent 7yrs driving sidewinders and dozer boats (little 4-54 Jimmys I think) and once people started putting the ether to them (because we were a high production mill and people tended to get into a hurry), as one of the mechanics at the mill said 'They get addicted to it.', an expensive rebuild wasn't far off usually. Pretty good way to shave your eyebrows too if you are not careful. I really like the sound of the heaters that tap into the vehicles fuel system, makes sense esp. if you're in remote regions. In really cold spots people will simply leave their engines running 24/7, most applicable to trucks and heatplants on northern oil rigs. Good thread gents!


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## ShoerFast

Sprig said:


> Good thread gents!



It is a good thread!

Cold starts are always a trick and a half.

Either is just way to dry to get in the habit of using, holding an unburning propane torch in the in the in-take is a little nicer to the engine as it doesnt wash the oil off of the cylinder walls. New glow-plugs and a good fresh battery with well serviced connections may be the cheapest insurance. But a tired engine with border-line compression and marginal injectors is going to be hard to start.

Along with engine oils getting thicker and harder to crank, cold air is just hard to get the engine to fire. Cold also makes the electron exchange in the battery slower, lowering the available amperage. About the best way to get a little more snort out of a cold battery is to hook up a trickle charger that is made to keep batteries up, if it has an "automatic" feature, it wouldn't hurt the battery if it were plugged in all the time the engine is shut-down. The activity of a trickle charger takes the chill out of a battery giving it way more "umpth" for cranking. 

There is a trick that sometimes works to get a little more out of a cold start, just turning the lights on for about 20 seconds, and back off, the draw of the lights will sometime give just enought warmth to a cold battery, this trick will prove it's self if your ever trying to start a gas engine that dose not have enought juice to spark the plugs, the extra warmth will sometime be just the trick to get that extra volt.

A some day toy for me would be an old John Deere 70 D , they have a V-4 pony engine for a starter, that tapes into the coolant warming the main engine, and the pony exhaust is the big engines intake. If it's too cold to start "starter-engine" it's too cold to work!


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## bwalker

I have a 01 cummins in my dodge and all I do is hop in, let the light go off and start. I dont even plug it in. I also dont live in a very warm climate and have used the same procedure down to well below zero.


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## Marco

Wouldn't it depend on what model of diesel engine that one is trying to start? Some take better to ether than others. I have found that an injector that has a button works nicely, you just tap it while you are cranking. I run a D361 and a D358 IH engine like this for several years now and have not seen them get any worse for wear. The original poster really didn't say what he was trying to start, could be a Cat with a pony motor.
I have heard of the pickup to diesel coolant transfusion before and it seems reasonable, never tried it.
Some older model diesels are just cold blooded and you could rebuild everything and it wouldn't start in the cold.


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## B-Edwards

I'm not sure if anyone noticed or addressed the spraying of either in the Muffler comment, I don't mean to be a jerk but it doesn't go in the muffler its the air intake where you want to spray it. Also want to mention that the discussion between Tom Dunlap and Franz was exactly how (imo) things should be discussed here, very professional.


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## chowdozer

Had this problem last Feb in Wyoming at -31 deg F with two Onan diesel gens, a Cat 3406 and three Honda gas generators to start. Batteries are the major obstacle at these temps. Even the Hondas didn't want to start. I used the ether to start one of the Honda's, plugged in a milk house heater to the Honda and put the heater in the Onan battery compartment for an hour or so with jumper cables to the Onan from the suv. On your diesel, hold that throttle wide open and let it get all the air it can so you have something to build compression. Once I got one Onan started, the second was easy as they shared starting batteries and fuel supply. Ditto for the Cat. It took close to two hours to get everything running. 

Many fires are started in sub zero temperatures trying to get things started. Be careful.


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## ShoerFast

chowdozer said:


> On your diesel, hold that throttle wide open and let it get all the air it can so you have something to build compression.
> .



No offence, as I don't know what your experience level is with diesel systems, but old manual rack triggered or pump plate, injectors fall on a spool valve in-tell the engine reaches the speed the governor is asking it to run at, unless it has 100% feed-back electrical timed injectors, WOT just may be too much fuel. it's hard, but at cranking speed, even diesel's can be too rich.

Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I know of no diesel that will build any more compression at WOT cranking, there is no butterfly valve or throttle plate.

Here is a trivia question, anyone think a Bank's style engine brake (ball-valve restriction in the exhaust) if engaged, create signifigantly more cranking compression for a cold start?


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## PES+

*Hmmmm*

I would say no but I may be missing something. I installed one for a customer and never even considered that use. They sure are quieter and seem easier on the engine that the J brakes. The farmers up here ride the J full or empty on their feed trucks on the flat GRRRRRRRRRR


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## Kneejerk Bombas

I don't know if it really works, but I heard that if you stick a hair dryer or heat gun towards the intake, it preheats the air and it'll start right up.

If it's true, and it makes sense based on what Shoerfast's comment: 
_"Along with engine oils getting thicker and harder to crank, cold air is just hard to get the engine to fire." _
Then maybe some other heat source like a propane torch could work. Not to preheat the motor, just the air getting sucked in.


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## mini kahuna

you know what,I bet that hair dryer trick would work,cool idea.
I don't see how you would stress or damage the engine either.
that is how cummins does it in the dodge pickup,heating element in the intake,warms the air charge going in engine,and those dodges' start great in cold weather.


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## Curbside

mini kahuna said:


> you know what,I bet that hair dryer trick would work,cool idea.
> I don't see how you would stress or damage the engine either.
> that is how cummins does it in the dodge pickup,heating element in the intake,warms the air charge going in engine,and those dodges' start great in cold weather.




My Dodge's have glow plugs. My Freightliners with Cummins engines have heating elements in the intake. I don't know if it would get hot enough with a hair dryer. It wouldn't hurt anything. But if you live in a area cold enough to worry about it just put a inline heater in their only about a 100.00.


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## 04ultra

Make sure if you use ether that you disconect glow plugs . ether on a hot glow plug will burn the tip rite off.. Watched a demo at a trade show for Baru glow plugs and they showed what it does..I pulled the heads off a 7.3 that had a knock after guy used ether and found 2 glow plug tips on piston domes that were hitting cylinder head ,6 plugs were burnt off .


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## chowdozer

Mike Maas said:


> I don't know if it really works, but I heard that if you stick a hair dryer or heat gun towards the intake, it preheats the air and it'll start right up.
> 
> If it's true, and it makes sense based on what Shoerfast's comment:
> _"Along with engine oils getting thicker and harder to crank, cold air is just hard to get the engine to fire." _
> Then maybe some other heat source like a propane torch could work. Not to preheat the motor, just the air getting sucked in.




I tried the hairdryer for about 15 minutes and gave up. Maybe a heatgun would work better, hotter air. Best bet is to keep the batteries warm and hold the throttle wide open to let it get all the air it can.


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## chowdozer

ShoerFast said:


> No offence, as I don't know what your experience level is with diesel systems, but old manual rack triggered or pump plate, injectors fall on a spool valve in-tell the engine reaches the speed the governor is asking it to run at, unless it has 100% feed-back electrical timed injectors, WOT just may be too much fuel. it's hard, but at cranking speed, even diesel's can be too rich.
> 
> Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I know of no diesel that will build any more compression at WOT cranking, there is no butterfly valve or throttle plate.
> 
> Here is a trivia question, anyone think a Bank's style engine brake (ball-valve restriction in the exhaust) if engaged, create signifigantly more cranking compression for a cold start?



I have found that with the two Onan 12.5 KW's I have at work which travel the country, bypassing the governor by holding the throttle open results in almost immediate starting with warm batteries. It's probably over a minute of cranking to start the normal way and less than 20 seconds if I hold the throttle open. Maybe you can't do this with all diesels, I don't know.


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## Rancher

I warm up my tractors by placing a 6 foot section of chimney pipe with an elbow on the end pointing up under the oil pan. Then I place a propane tiger torch into the far end. That lets very hot air onto the tractor but the pipe is long enough that no flames are coming out. Pretty safe. 

The biggest problem I have is gelled fuel. Even with products like Red Tec I still get gelling unless I have drained all the summer diesel and put in artic diesel. The problem there is the service stations not switching over their tanks until too late in the winter. I currently have two of three tractors with gelled fuel because of that. I had treated the fuel but at 22 below and a strong wind two of them gelled. Of course, those are the two with snow plows that I need today.

QUESTION- What was that about mixing different anti freezes? I may have just done that on my pick up, the new stuff was yellow and the old was green. 

Bill


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## powelllake

This works in extreme cold weather. Get yourself a six foot piece of stove pipe with an elbow at one end. Stick your tiger torch into the other end and set on low flame and heat up your oil pan if you can get at it. Dont leave unattended. 
Mark


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## STIHL-KID

*A student's point of view...............*

I recently read through this thread and realized how much of it applies to what I have recently learned. I am in school right now learning diesel technology. We have already covered batteries. I have some current charts that shows temperature and how is affects batteries. A fully charged battery at 0 degrees will show an open terminal voltage of 12.5 volts. A battery's electrolite will not fully freeze until it reaches around -85 to -95 F. A battery's charge is 50% at a specific gravity of 1.19. For example, at 0 degrees the specific gravity of a fully charged battery will be 1.297. I have several charts that help me understand temperature and how they affect the battery's ability to perform. Commonly, the old urban legend has been "don't store a battery on a hard concrete floor". That is half true. The floor itself does not discharge the battery, it's the fact that the cold floor is absorbing any heat the battery may have. This leads to premature discharge. My instructor has always recommended that any batteries left outside in freezing temperatures should be taken out and stored indoors if possible. The higher the battery temp, the better chance is will have at cranking. As for a skidder sitting out in the woods overnight during freezing temps, unhook the battery and take it back to the warm shop. The next day the battery will be warm and ready to fully crank. Diesels are extremely cold-blooded in the dead of winter and the best thing is to give it the best possible chance of starting. As already stated a million times on this thread, either is a last ditch effort. Often I hear stories in school about people breaking piston rings, blowing up glow plugs, and causing other expensive problems because of either misuse. Be Carefull!!!


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## habanero

I didn't read the entire thread carefully, so if this is a repeat, I apologize in advance. But one trick I used on my old Mercedes diesel from time to time was WD-40 in the intake, rather than ether. As mentioned several times previously, the ether has explosive potential in the combustion chamber. But WD-40 won't explode in the chamber, and the propane propellant works well to get it to light off easily. 

Most important things, though, are a well-maintained electrical system and engine warmth via block heat, oil-pan heat, etc.


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## Puumies

Did anybody mention that you should keep the tank filled up to prevent water getting in to the fuel system? Water, either liquid or freezed, is not so good news.


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## 046

97 dodge cummins turbo diesel here.... what works great for me is keeping two hot batteries. 

when starting cummins has heater grids, you wait for grid light to go off. then slightly depress throttle while cranking. 

mine usually starts within 1 second of cranking. then I'll fast idle at 1250 rpm for a few minutes to warm. opening up throttle during startup makes a huge difference on how many cranks it takes to start. 

I've got a block heater and try to keep it plugged in. cummins starts fine without block heater, just takes longer to warm up.


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## 1wildthing

The first concern that I have when somebody says their diesel won't start is gelling. Especially this time of year. And just adding anti-gel won't help your lines of filters. The only way around gelling is to run the right kind of fuel, or add the anti-gel immediately when you fill up.

I haven't had problems starting my skidder (1970ish JD) in temp down to -10F. But if starting it was hard in the mornings, I would add a timer and auto-start system instead of trying to use a block heater. Skidders are almost never parked where they can be plugged in, and other types of block heaters are more complicated, and hard to find. 

Just set up a timer (or thermostat) and attatch it to the start relay. These are popular on trucks and other equipment in cold climates. You can set it to start itself every two hours (or when it gets cold) and run for 15 minutes. The motor won't get cold, and it saves fuel over running all night.


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## SRT-Tech

what you all want is a "battery blanket" or "warmer". Its a insulating wrap that either runs off the battery (or 2nd battery) or plugs into a 110v outlet. draws very little juice, does not drain the battery. They are stock on our CDN Forces winter vehicles and the big mining vehicles in the North of Canada, where tmeps can get to - 70 or lower Celcius. Keeps the battery WARM, and makes starting instant even in ultra low temps.







^ the one pictured plugs into 110V, but there are others (bigger models too) that are 12V or 24V


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## chowdozer

046 said:


> 97 opening up throttle during startup makes a huge difference on how many cranks it takes to start.



I agree. Until someone trys it, they'll never know. Like Shoerfast said, diesels don't have a throttle plate but... I can't explain why it works and I'm not going to try to guess why it works. It just does.


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## SmokinDodge

What works best? An engine with a fuel system that isn't worn out fitted with a properly working preheat system ie. glow plugs, intake screen heater and a block heater that's plugged in three hours before hand. Cycle the glow plugs/heater twice and crank it up. 

Reality? The block heater cord was ripped off last year and about half the glow plugs work, maybe. All covered under three feet of snow and it hasn't ran in four months. 

The next two examples are for non working preheat systems:

Crank it for 10-15 seconds to build oil pressure and generate some heat in the cylinders and not long enough to run down the batteries. Whiff of Either towards the intake and crank for five more seconds. Another whiff and it starts, if not repeat process. I hate just spraying either into a cranking engine as it is usually a good way to load one cylinder up real good so it pre ignites and breaks rings. I only use 80% either, that other stuff is only good to clean parts.

A rag dampend with gasoline over the air intake fastened in a manner that when the engine starts it is not drawn in works well also.

My JD 4320 will NOT start under 40 without the block heater or Either, and it has new batteries, injection pump and starter, my father's 4020 is the same way. Some engines are just cold natured. My dozer powered with a Detroit Diesel with fire down to 20, anything below that requires a little help from the either bunny.


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## SmokinDodge

chowdozer said:


> I agree. Until someone trys it, they'll never know. Like Shoerfast said, diesels don't have a throttle plate but... I can't explain why it works and I'm not going to try to guess why it works. It just does.



Some times the idle is too low. After a few thousand cycles of the throttle pedal they do need adjustment.


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## lqqk

Do the Cummins in the dodge pickups circulate the fuel through the tanks like the ones in over the road pickups? I live in central illinois and am taking a trip to northern south dakota this february and it kind of has me wondering if there is anything i will need if its extra cold up there. Have no problem starting now down to zero but my luck it will be a tad bit colder when i go. thanks in advance.


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## lqqk

over the road tractors, not pickups. never claimed to be much of a typer


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## 04superduty

lqqk said:


> Do the Cummins in the dodge pickups circulate the fuel through the tanks like the ones in over the road pickups? I live in central illinois and am taking a trip to northern south dakota this february and it kind of has me wondering if there is anything i will need if its extra cold up there. Have no problem starting now down to zero but my luck it will be a tad bit colder when i go. thanks in advance.


yes, the powerstroke, cummins, and duramax and almost every diesel engine circulates the fuel not used back to the tank. part of the reason is to help cool the injectors down. so running a diesel vehicle low on fuel is not a good idea.


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## priest

I had a 1992 Dodge 350 bucket truck that would start almost as soon as turned over, every time. I owned it for 3 years (until 2 months ago, when it was 15 years old), and about 0 F was as cold as I ever had to start it. No problem.
Now I have a 2001 F-250 that is a bit** to start below freezing (automatic), a 2000 F-350 bucket truck that is amost as bad (automatic), and a 1999 F-550 chip truck (manual) that will start reliably down to 0 F. All are 7.3 Powerstrokes. I have an excellent mechanic that cannot explain the difference.
The 1992 Dodge was a Cummins, obviously. My Vermeer BC1000XL is a 4 cyl. Cummins. It will barely start below 25 F. 
My ASV skid steer has a Perkins diesel. It will barely start below 25 F.
You say "some diesels are just cold-natured", but how is there so much difference when it is the same engine. I don't get it. I just know it sucks trying to get all the equipment started this time of year on mornings when it is 12 F. I'm getting electricity run out to the yard this week so I can plug things in, but the chipper doesn't even have a block heater or glow plugs on it. A friend of mine has the exact same chipper and has no problem starting it on cold morinings. What the heck?

Thanks for your input . . . important thread.


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## 046

what an excellent idea! 

using a tiger torch and 6 foot section of chimney pipe w/elbow to warm your engine up. 
already got several old blow torches that might do the job too. 

my 97 12 valve cummins already starts quite well, plugged in or not. but our temps in Okla. is no where near extreme like our Canadian brethren. 

standard procedure to start is to depress throttle 1/4 while cranking, after waiting a minute or so for heater strip to heat up. usually starts right up on first crank. 



Rancher said:


> I warm up my tractors by placing a 6 foot section of chimney pipe with an elbow on the end pointing up under the oil pan. Then I place a propane tiger torch into the far end. That lets very hot air onto the tractor but the pipe is long enough that no flames are coming out. Pretty safe.
> 
> The biggest problem I have is gelled fuel. Even with products like Red Tec I still get gelling unless I have drained all the summer diesel and put in artic diesel. The problem there is the service stations not switching over their tanks until too late in the winter. I currently have two of three tractors with gelled fuel because of that. I had treated the fuel but at 22 below and a strong wind two of them gelled. Of course, those are the two with snow plows that I need today.
> 
> QUESTION- What was that about mixing different anti freezes? I may have just done that on my pick up, the new stuff was yellow and the old was green.
> 
> Bill


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## kah68

There are 0 w 40 Syn oils that make it much easier to turn the engine over in winter, the oil is pricy but no need for Gens or heaters.


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## 1953greg

lots of great tips
heres one more

if batteries and starter have enough oomph
mix 10 oz gas w/ 5 oz diesel in a small finger spray bottle (like spray n wash bottle). pump spray into intake while cranking. almost impossible to over charge the cylinder with this mix. 

1/4 to 1/3 throttle helps many also. cant explain how but it works.

i had a 1910 ford diesel tractor, indirect injection, that was the most difficult engine i have ever been around (and i grew up on the farm and drove road tractors for 35 yrs). 

gas/fuel spray and charge the battery before cranking wil help a bunch.

good bump on an old thread


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## kah68

I told my guys I will break their fingers off if I see them using either to start any of my engines. No need for it and the results can cost more that letting a Gen run for an hour while they sip coffee and talk about how bad 'The Leaf's' suck!


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## niv

Good idea we load the generator on cold days and let the block heaters do the work,time well spent you can put a block heater on almost anything!!


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## priest

Where do you find good block heaters?


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## mayor

Sure fire way of starting cold diesels WITHOUT!!! ether.....

Make sure the batteries are good. Make sure they are fully charged.
Most diesels are equipped with glowplugs or grid heaters...make sure they are working properly beforehand.
Make sure starters are in good condition before winter sets in.....draggy starters will kill batteries and wont turn cold diesels over fast enough.

O.K., here's my secret weapon.....
Use a propane torch too heat the air in the intake.....just remove the breather....and blow hot air into the intake.......dont burn anything....just blow warm air in....now then....hit the starter!...she'll fire right up!.

Never failed me yet!.

Ether kills diesels!!!!....even if they dont die...it'll scar their cylinders for life!.
Everyone has heard that once you use ether..you'll always use ether?...well, thats because it washes down the cylinder walls quickly and the rings scratch the walls and thus loses some compression.....Oh..they'll run for years anyway...but they wont have that extra umph they had with good sealing rings!.


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## Mikecutstrees

I found a good heater for my chipper at the local auto parts store. Its magnetic and you just stick it to the bottom of the oil pan. 200 Watts, works great 30 minutes or so and it starts right up. In real cold weather I leave it on over night. Just unstick it when you are done. $40... heck of a deal....


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## chowdozer

SmokinDodge said:


> Some times the idle is too low. After a few thousand cycles of the throttle pedal they do need adjustment.



That may be true.
The generators I start don't have a throttle pedal though. Constant rpm.


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## Brushwacker

5555555 said:


> In a pinch, I used to use HEET in an aluminum pie plate under the oil pan to start a skidder on a real cold day. The HEET burns long enough to heat the engine and battery and helped cold starting a lot. It's also very cheap and portable...
> 
> Now the warnings - HEET, primarily alchohol, burns without visible flame in the daylight. It may not look lit but can burn badly. Secondly, you need to keep your equipment clean to use this method, our starting the skidder won't be your big problem.
> 
> Jim



Sounds similar to the method an old freind in NE WA used about 25 years ago when I spent a couple winters out there. He would use a coffee can full of I am pretty sure was motor oil with a cloth wick, under the oil pan to warm things up under his JD crawler. It took a while, but it gave us plenty of time to visit and drink coffee waiting for results.


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## Goat

Ether is for gas engines, not diesels. Using it is shooting yourself in the foot.

Diesel is a fuel with a high autoignition temperature about 210C, nominal. Ether on the other hand is a volitile fuel, it has an autoignition temperature of 160C. Aside from the other problems mentioned, introducing a fuel with a much lower autoignition temp into a diesel will effectively create detonation. It will ignite and start building cylinder pressure before the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke exceeding the mean brake effective pressure of the cylinder. It will damage head gaskets, bearings, valves and turbos.

Use WD40 it's properties are very close to diesel.

A few gents mentioned synthetic oil, yes! It makes noticable difference in cranking speeds which is what you want. A fast enough cranking speed that generates heat faster then the cold coolant and block and conduct away.

Fix your fuel leaks...if you are leaking fuel chance are that you are also aspirating air into your injection pump.


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## cabinman

May have been posted, didnt read all,..There is a company out there, But you can do it all your self,..that makes a quick coupling system for the small heater core hoses, SO you pull up to the vehicle and plug in your truck to the (wanna start) vehicle,. All you are doing is swaping hot coolant with the cold stuff, pretty slick idea,. E,J,


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## cabinman

*Either,*



Goat said:


> Ether is for gas engines, not diesels. Using it is shooting yourself in the foot.
> 
> Diesel is a fuel with a high autoignition temperature about 210C, nominal. Ether on the other hand is a volitile fuel, it has an autoignition temperature of 160C. Aside from the other problems mentioned, introducing a fuel with a much lower autoignition temp into a diesel will effectively create detonation. It will ignite and start building cylinder pressure before the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke exceeding the mean brake effective pressure of the cylinder. It will damage head gaskets, bearings, valves and turbos.
> 
> Use WD40 it's properties are very close to diesel.
> 
> A few gents mentioned synthetic oil, yes! It makes noticable difference in cranking speeds which is what you want. A fast enough cranking speed that generates heat faster then the cold coolant and block and conduct away.
> 
> Fix your fuel leaks...if you are leaking fuel chance are that you are also aspirating air into your injection pump.



Goat,... Ive never heard anyone say that either waz for gas engines, and not for DIESELS,


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## newby79

If ether isn't for diesel engines then why does John deere tractors and combines have that little yellow "hot" button for starting on cold days? If used properly it will not hurt the engine. The key is used properly. I don't know if the other manufacters have something similar but it always worked on the deere's. Also maybe because we hit the button while you were cranking and not before had something to do with it. So the engine was not trying to run on straight ether. Also when it gets cold use an additive. I have used power supply for years in tractors and my trucks with great results. I have and 03 duramax and we have had nights at -20 and she'll fire right up, now granted the engine has alot of compression knock until it runs for a minute or two, but has never failed to start.


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## gr8scott72

cabinman said:


> May have been posted, didnt read all,..There is a company out there, But you can do it all your self,..that makes a quick coupling system for the small heater core hoses, SO you pull up to the vehicle and plug in your truck to the (wanna start) vehicle,. All you are doing is swaping hot coolant with the cold stuff, pretty slick idea,. E,J,



You're right, you didn't read. It was actually discused back and forth in this thread with the warning that mixing different coolant types from one vehicle to another could be harmful.


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## cabinman

*coolants*



gr8scott72 said:


> You're right, you didn't read. It was actually discused back and forth in this thread with the warning that mixing different coolant types from one vehicle to another could be harmful.



I agree, there are some coolants that should not be mixed, E,J,


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## John464

newby79 said:


> If ether isn't for diesel engines then why does John deere tractors and combines have that little yellow "hot" button for starting on cold days? If used properly it will not hurt the engine. The key is used properly. I don't know if the other manufacters have something similar but it always worked on the deere's. Also maybe because we hit the button while you were cranking and not before had something to do with it. So the engine was not trying to run on straight ether.



that button is no ether injector, but a glow plug activation button and yes they are common on just about all deisel equipment. helps, but is not a solution to real cold weather. heater blocks(magentic) and electrical plug ins are what we use. Id only use ether or some sort of flammable if we had a power outage.


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## newby79

Well in response to john464 it is not a "glowplug activator" it is most certainly a ether injector. John Deere tractors do not even have glow plugs. I worked at a Deere dealership for 3 years after high school, although I am far from a diesel mechanic I did go through all of the trade-in combines and tractors. Changed oil and filter, air filter, basically looked them over and get them ready to sell, and repair anything that it may need. Under the hood of the tractor on the right hand side if you are sitting in the seat there will be a black aerosol looking can that is mounted in a cradle, this is the can of ether that is connected to the yellow button in the cab. Again I am not saying that all diesel equipment is like this just John Deere tractors and combines. There may be other manufacturers that have a "glow plug activator button" I don't know. But if you are going to have glow plugs in a engine wouldn't it make sense to have them working all of the time?


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## John464

You are right. John Deere has used this and may still use this. I am not familiar with Deere equipment. I do know that tree equipment such as Vermeer, Bandit, Morbark, ASV, and Bobcat use glow plugs or intake heater. Most modern industrial engines have gone to glow plugs or intake heater and do not recommend the use of ether. If the ether ignites at the wrong time by result of the glow plugs, stand back. Unless you are starting a Deere, the button is for a glow plu or intake heater and the use of ether could result in warranty void and or possible damage to your engine.


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## ronnyb

If you are not familar with John Deere equipment, then why did you submit a post where you were so definite that it was most certainly not an ether injector?:angry2:


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## cabinman

*Glow plugs, and either*



John464 said:


> You are right. John Deere has used this and may still use this. I am not familiar with Deere equipment. I do know that tree equipment such as Vermeer, Bandit, Morbark, ASV, and Bobcat use glow plugs or intake heater. Most modern industrial engines have gone to glow plugs or intake heater and do not recommend the use of ether. If the ether ignites at the wrong time by result of the glow plugs, stand back. Unless you are starting a Deere, the button is for a glow plu or intake heater and the use of ether could result in warranty void and or possible damage to your engine.



Dont (ever) use either with glow plugs,.E,J,


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