# GIANT poison oak + poison oak question.



## M.D. Vaden (Sep 22, 2006)

While in the redwood forest today, I photographed the trunk of a poison oak plant - tree really.

Biggest I've ever seen - lowest visible foliage was about 150' up, maybe higher. It vanished out of view into the redwood.

The trunk was about 4" DBH. Must be a hundred years old, although I'd suspect much more.

Attached image of it's lower trunk.

Here's my question too, for you climbers...

What do you do about pruning or removing trees that have poison oak vines in them? 

Some weeks back, I put together this page on poison oak http://www.mdvaden.com/poison_oak.shtml
and was still amazed how how long-lasting the irritant in it is.

Can trees with the vines be removed?


----------



## treeseer (Sep 22, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Can trees with the vines be removed?


 Not sure what you are asking, Mario.umpkin2: 

PI does not bother me much any more. If the stalk is <1", I just grab it and pull it out of the ground. No pores in your palms; if you're careful you can grab it.

I remember climbing a riverbirch dull of it in december; vine was leafless and I was careless so I did not ID. It went systemic and i was laid up for days. But that was a long time ago.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Sep 22, 2006)

So you are a saying that if you just grab the vines with gloves, you are okay?

I'm in an area with a lot more poison oak than the Portland area had, so I'm curious about the options.

I may even need to subcontract or refer this kind of work, and wondered if the costs are escalated.

Apparently, a fraction of people / climbers are immune. Maybe they could make a bonus in this category.


----------



## okietreedude1 (Sep 23, 2006)

Summer of 05 I had to cut out a bunch of PI and haul off. I went to a safety place and got a disposable coverall. I cant remember the actual name of the thing. I was very hot but it protected me well. I also had on rubber chemical gloves, a dust mask and rubber boots. Everything got thrown away in the end but the boots that got washed.


----------



## sawinredneck (Sep 23, 2006)

Cut a much larger trunk than that, sorry, no pics Thankfully I am not allergic to that, everything else, but not that, have a buddy I coned into cutting wood with me, he is allergic and he broke out. Needed a cortozone shot when it was all said and one. Did some reading on here, I belive, there was a thread not long ago, learned about Technu, took my buddy back, got the rash, apllied Tehnu, no more worries!! I was impressed and sold!! Bailes carries it, worth a look if you will be in it a lot.
Andy


----------



## Diesel JD (Sep 23, 2006)

PI is probably the single biggest reason I'm not in the arboriculture industry. I got a couple really bad cases of it in high school and first couple of years of college. I don't want to do that again! I suck at ID of it too, which is perhaps teh biggest problem. Hopefully I'm better at ID and a little wiser than I was then.


----------



## smokechase II (Sep 23, 2006)

*poison oak removal*

LA County Parks and others used to remove these tree vines by pulling them out with anything handy. Like a pick-up.
Then to get rid of it they'd run it through a chipper.
Sweet Mary Mother of God.

Picture a co-worker of mine being a conscience objector during the Vietnam era and that was where the judge sent them. There are those that argued that this was an atrocity, although not bad as Kent State.

Said that their clothes would be so badly stained black that nothing could clean them. (Native Americans used Poison Oak as a dye).

A couple tricks not mentioned so far that might also help. 

1) Deal with it off-season in some areas, when the pitch isn't flowing.
2) Kill it by cutting the main stem, let it dry and deal with it next year.

I realize that many property owners want it done now. But for some this might work and it will at least reduce the quantity of exposure.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Sep 23, 2006)

Diesel JD said:


> PI is probably the single biggest reason I'm not in the arboriculture industry. I got a couple really bad cases of it in high school and first couple of years of college. I don't want to do that again! I suck at ID of it too, which is perhaps teh biggest problem. Hopefully I'm better at ID and a little wiser than I was then.



It seems that the tricky ID part is in the winter when leaves are off. It's almost like you have to have been raised in the country to know what the stems look like bare. I can't explain the look, but I recognize it in the dormant season.

Apparently, the chemical remains active in the dead stems and dead leaves for years.

Can you imagine if it remained active on human tissue for years :jawdrop:


----------



## treeseer (Sep 23, 2006)

Here the stems on poison ivy are very hairy so leafless ID is not hard.

The parks people here value it as a native ornamental and don't want it cut in their greenways.

Mario I was not talking about wearing gloves (tho that is a good idea). I just grab it and pull it barehanded. nothing macho about it; no pores in your palms, so you can't get it there. Anyone ever get poison oak rash on your palms?

I have clients who claim they are fatally allergic. this said with a heavy tinge of hysteria. I think anxiety aggravates the response--the more you fear it, the more reason you have to fear it.


----------



## beowulf343 (Sep 23, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Apparently, a fraction of people / climbers are immune. Maybe they could make a bonus in this category.


Ha, Ha. I think this is one of the best ideas I've heard on this site. 
Fortunately, I have no problems with either poison oak or poison ivy. I've climbed trees so thick with it that you couldn't even see the trunk and I was actually spiking the ivy instead of the tree on my way up. So this means that everything my company gets that is covered in ivy, it becomes my job. In fact, several times other local companies have hired me just to deal with ivy trees. I'll have to bring up the bonus idea to my boss monday.


----------



## hobby climber (Sep 23, 2006)

Had a bad case of PI a few years back. Never had a problem with it ever before and told the doctor the same. Doctor said that it will stay in your body for years and never leave unless its treated with medication. Once you are exposed to enough of it over time, it will break out all over your body even in areas that were not exposed! 

A guy I met once, who was a native Indian, said that if you burn poison ivy & poison oak together, its smoke will cause temporary blindness along with other irritations! He tells me his ancestors did this hundreds of years ago against there enemies. The first use of chemical warfare ever to be used. Thought that was kinda interesting. HC


----------



## Mike Barcaskey (Sep 23, 2006)

treeseer, you can get poison ivy rash on parts of your body that lack pores. I have had it on my palms numerous times, though it manivests itself as single pustules and not a rash. You get it in these areas when it goes systemic in your body, not from touch.
If you burn it and breathe the smoke you can get it in your mouth, nose, esophagus and lungs. 
some are more allergic than others.


----------



## treeseer (Sep 23, 2006)

Thanks Mike for confirming that you cannot get it on your palms from contact there. I think PI/PO hysteria is part of the recent fantasy that the world can and somehow should be risk-free, and SAFE. Humans' immune systems are weaker when they get little contact with natural microorganisms, and irritants ike PI/PO.


----------



## DeanBrown3D (Sep 23, 2006)

PI: I cut through the base one year and then removed it the next. It was dry, but I wore gloves and just pulled off strips as I descended, dropping them into a pile. I was wearing gloves and long sleeves and jeans, no problem at all, the PI was growing all the way up an oak to around 50 feet and was 3" thick at the stem.

Take care of the rope afterward, it must have touched the PI at some point, and when I flaked it into the bag afterwards I think it rubbed on my neck and I got a red patch there, but no big deal.

HTH

Dean


----------



## Bob Wright (Sep 23, 2006)

WOW, I am digging my self just looking at the pics. I saw my neighbor rip a small 12" PO vine from the base of my tree, throw the vine in the street and wipe his hands on his pants, "I don't get it he says". A few days later his wife is putting cream on her foot bottom, guess what, PI while playing footsie at the dinner table, so watch what you do with your old disposible clothes afterwards, it may save someone else some trouble...Bob


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Sep 23, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> Ha, Ha. I think this is one of the best ideas I've heard on this site.
> Fortunately, I have no problems with either poison oak or poison ivy. I've climbed trees so thick with it that you couldn't even see the trunk and I was actually spiking the ivy instead of the tree on my way up. So this means that everything my company gets that is covered in ivy, it becomes my job. In fact, several times other local companies have hired me just to deal with ivy trees. I'll have to bring up the bonus idea to my boss monday.




How about having doctors CERTIFIY climbers who are immune?

In the page I linked to at first, I added that poison oak accounts for about 1% of workman's comp claims in California. Along with poison ivy, poison oak has been the cause for up to 10% of labor down-time in the forest service.

Maybe insurance companies would see a value in that kind of certificate.


----------



## beowulf343 (Sep 23, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> How about having doctors CERTIFIY climbers who are immune?
> 
> In the page I linked to at first, I added that poison oak accounts for about 1% of workman's comp claims in California. Along with poison ivy, poison oak has been the cause for up to 10% of labor down-time in the forest service.
> 
> Maybe insurance companies would see a value in that kind of certificate.


Well let's take it one step further. Why can't doctors take someone who is immune to poison ivy or oak and synthesize an antidote from their blood, dna, etc. (oh, wait, how many doctors read this site?)


----------



## SRT-Tech (Sep 23, 2006)

could you not just use steam on the PI / PO plant? Up here the Rail companys use compressed steam to clear the tracks of weeds. They slowly roll down the track and the next day all the weeds are dead, yellow and drooping, thne in a few days they are dry and crumble to nothing. 

and for clearing this stuff, the specail suits are called TYVECK, you can get them in bulk at painters supply stores.


----------



## okietreedude1 (Sep 23, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> specail suits are called TYVECK.




Thats right. Thanks.


----------



## smokechase II (Sep 23, 2006)

*poison oak immunity*

Treeseer:
A strong immune system isn't what gives individuals the ability to avoid getting urisol rashes. It is an intelligent one. Those who do not react to the ivy, oak or sumac plants do so simply because their body doesn't react to the urisol. 
Unfortunately, those that do have a reaction do so because their immune systems react strongly.

beowulf343:
"Why can't doctors take someone who is immune to poison ivy or oak and synthesize an antidote from their blood, dna, etc? "
Doctors are way beyond us. Back in the 1950's a leading research physician, (the same guy who did the retin A - wrinkle remover studies), did the definitive study on urisol exposure/reactions. He concluded that we simply don't know how the immune system works on problems of this nature. His best guess was that if a large population got enough exposure to an irritant like poison oak, that eventually all but 5% would develop a reaction. He had no idea why. Why not all nor why those others would be spared.
In short, you've got to understand not just the problem, but the solution in medicine and we can't synthesize an antidote when we don't know what it is. We are not there yet unless we think big and go cloning.

A fairly significant point is that *all* should avoid urisol exposure if reasonably possible. I have seen so many that swore they didn't get it eventually develop a reaction.


----------



## Diesel JD (Sep 24, 2006)

I have never heard of PI remaining dormant in your system for years if not treated......that sounds kind of stupid, I don't think that's right. I wanted to say for sure...don't think you can avoid it by cutting when the plant is dormant. doesn't work...as to the ID, the problem here is that PI plants as well as the harmless(to most folks) Virginia Creeper have those hairy rhizomes on the vines. In addition, so does a vine that goes by the pet name of cow itch plant. It seems to be an allergen for some people,a nd not for others, for me it causes a reaction sometimes, and other times not at all, but never severe like PI. I need to get some pics of teh different stuff I'm looking at. It seems like nearly half of my trees are badly vined up with something, harmful or not!


----------



## hobby climber (Sep 25, 2006)

Here's a link: www.poison-ivy.org 

My doctor told me that it WILL accumulate & stay in the body until its treated with mediation...its the only way to get rid of it! I was given some type of steroid medication to treat it. Started off with a large dose and gradually decrease the amount over a period of time. 

The people that get it all over there body (and not just the contact area), are the same people that have been exposed to it in the past! HC


----------



## treeseer (Sep 25, 2006)

Gave the immune system a tryout yesterday. puiled weeds from the edge of the pond including mucho poison ivy; loonnng thick vines. Wore smurf gloves but went shirtless; it was hot. did not try to brush leaves against bare open-pored skin but still it happened.:monkey: 

Showered right after and stood guard with tecnu, but felt no itch. guess I can be thankful for a strong immune system--strong as in controlled. Hyperactivity is not strength. So where do I sign up for hazard pay--let em send me into a thicket of it, that's ok. Dress right and keep your mind calm and have no fear and I'm convinced it's just another plant.:biggrinbounce2:

Or maybe I just had a lucky day. :blush:


----------



## Mike Barcaskey (Sep 25, 2006)

I believe using the word immune/immunity is wrong.
This is an allergy that you have an allergic reaction to. You can decrease or increase your sensitivity to it.
Immune is more for bacteria/viruses sickness


----------



## boo (Sep 25, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Treeseer:
> A strong immune system isn't what gives individuals the ability to avoid getting urisol rashes. It is an intelligent one. Those who do not react to the ivy, oak or sumac plants do so simply because their body doesn't react to the urisol.
> Unfortunately, those that do have a reaction do so because their immune systems react strongly.
> 
> ...


I also am one of those guys that don't have a reaction to the poison.
Knowing this, I tackle some of the most poison infested jobs possible.
Once in a great while, I'll have a very mild reaction, a few days later... only after swimming in it.
A couple of my helpers can't seem to get through the night after coming into contact with it.... trips to the E.R. for steroids that last another 6 months or so.
I mean these guys swell up like ticks on a dog!! lips, face, and head swells up, welts all over.
Over the years they've learned to ID it and keep their distance.

As far as a cure .... what makes you think they don't have one already?
It's been done.
Don't that have to go through the FDA?
The same ones that took MGN Ultra 3 off of the shelf.
That's what blisters my a$$.


----------



## woodchux (Sep 25, 2006)

I used to have terrible reactions to PI. Now I can bundle up armloads of the stuff and throw it on the truck. All i do is wipe off with deodorized mineral spirits when i get home , and a good soapy shower. No problems.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Sep 26, 2006)

The link in hobbyclimbers reply had some gnarly looking images in the gallery - blisters, blackened skin, etc..


----------



## smokechase II (Oct 3, 2006)

*poison oak cure*

*"As far as a cure .... What makes you think they don't have one already?"*

There is not a cure that I'm aware of. Technu works pretty well, both as a morning after (exposure then clean up) and even as a bit of a preventative treatment. But by no means is it a cure.
Topical 1% steroid creams make for a great follow up to that technu scrub.
This is what works for me. Particularly with just an ivy exposure or off season oak.
Prednisone or other form of steroid (shots) are generally considered the most powerful anti inflammatory. Oak sap in the spring will get me on prednisone. Of course there are concerns and limitations with taking a medicine as significant as this one.

But these aren't cures. They may work to some degree for many, but have you ever seen really bad cases that even substantial steroids will not touch? I have, (medic in fire camps).

Also: The guys that I saw drink the poison oak extract to build up immunity, they just complained of itchy a__ holes later. Recommend against that one to any and all listening.


----------



## daddieslilgirl (Oct 5, 2006)

*poision oak and ivy*

i agree with alot, technu works great, i think they made money off my hubby and his partner when they worked in jersey! lol me on the other hand im allergic to everything including benedryl, but not poison oak, ivy, or schumack! go figure. ive layed in it and not even known it hooking up chokers! my brother the smart [email protected]@ says ya know what your in??? i didnt have a clue, thats why he stayed away! he thought id be itching like crazy! hahaha much to his dismay..i didnt! thats not to say it cant start bothering you because it can! im knocking on wood! lol


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Oct 5, 2006)

Now that my mind's into this subject, I think I might buy or order something for future exposure.

I rarely get into poison oak, but I like to keep products on hand anyhow.

My hiking adventures could bring me into a patch, too.

There's a nifty looking rock hill in our area, with a trail to the top, practically lined with poison oak. It's one of the first warning they give to school kids for field trips there.

Here's the rock...

http://www.mdvaden.com/table_rock.shtml

There's a rare flower up there, the dwarf wooly meadow foam. People like to go and see it, even though it's not exceptionally colorful. The geology is interesting.

There must be quite a few cases of poison oak from that rock each year.


----------



## BorealTree (Oct 8, 2006)

*Simple "Clean" Solution*

Don't laugh but I have the answer! ......

Lysol in a spray can!

I used to patrol power lines in the sierra foothills and Poison Oak jungles abounded, especially in the sun filled areas under the lines. There was no way around it other than through it. No fun!

I would come back to my truck, pull out a can of spray (aerosol) Lysol, spray my arms, hands, etc., rub it in some then rinse with a small amount of water (less than a gallon). No mess like Tech-nu. I would never get it and I could use it up to a couple hours after contact.

People I knew that already had a reaction to it could also use Lysol as it denatures the oil and drys the skin and hence allows healing sooner.

The methodology being...lysol destroys bacteria, etc., by lysing (cutting) the cell membranes which are made of fats/lipids. What is the irritant in poison oak/ivy?...the oil, vegetative oil = fats & lipids.

stay itch free.....
hans


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Oct 8, 2006)

BorealTree said:


> Don't laugh but I have the answer! ......
> 
> Lysol in a spray can!
> 
> ...



Does LYSOL have ALCOHOL in it?

If it does, that explains a lot of what you shared.

I don't have a can laying around to check the ingredients.

Alcohol is one of the better known compounds, recommended to use for poison oak on skin.


----------



## BorealTree (Oct 9, 2006)

*don't think it is alcohol*

M.D.

i don't believe it is alcohol in the Lysol as it never dried the skin out to the point alcohol would have.

it is the same molecular compound used inside the cells of the body, especially the white blood cells or phagocytes (the same ones that eat & destroy bacteria.) Cells contain Lysosomes that can bond with "waste products" and destroy it by Lys-ing (lys = cut in latin) the bi-lipid layer cell membrane. Lysosomes also work for cell self-destruction by opening their contents into the cell, which I would surmise would be what happens at the connection point between the twigs & the leaves when they drop them in the fall.

~hans


----------



## (WLL) (Nov 7, 2006)

Diesel JD said:


> PI is probably the single biggest reason I'm not in the arboriculture industry. I got a couple really bad cases of it in high school and first couple of years of college. I don't want to do that again! I suck at ID of it too, which is perhaps teh biggest problem. Hopefully I'm better at ID and a little wiser than I was then.


what is the difference in pi/po


----------



## jomoco (Nov 7, 2006)

*Some people really are immune to it*

Hi MD,

I've been removing trees with poison oak or poison ivy my whole career, in fact many companies sub to me for that very reason.

I'm more than willing to hop on a jet with my gear and deal with that tree or any other, I like big challenging trees with or without PI or PO.

Just give me a few weeks notice and the dbh of the trees so I know which saws to take.

Work Safe

jomoco


----------



## jefflovstrom (Nov 7, 2006)

I think there are plenty of guys like me that had it so much they really don't worry about it. One thing I do is to take asprin the day before and the day you are working in it. 
Jeff


----------



## jbw (Nov 8, 2006)

*pi salad*

i have had severe reactions in the past to the pi. over the last 5 yrs, i eat one pi leaf (small young leaf) per month. when i climb into a pi tree, i eat another leaf that day. i still get itchy spots (under watch band, forearm) but no blistering nor swelling.

only side affect upon its exit: slight itching for 2 days if you eat old bigger leaves that you can't chew up thoroughly.

the "oral ivy" does work but is too expensive; 4 drops per day and then 10 drops every 6 hrs after severe exposure.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Nov 8, 2006)

I just found a web page with information on Lysol Spray Disintectant. It referred to the MSDS source for Lysol; that it has over 70% alcohol in it.

That's a substantial alcohol source, that it would easily affect the chemical in poison oak, based on the information available about alcohol and poison oak.

There is other stuff in Lysol too.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 28, 2007)

I added quite a bit to this poison oak page yesterday...

http://www.mdvaden.com/poison_oak.shtml

Especially some winter photos of the stems, branching pattern and buds, including Ribes sanguinium; a winter look-alike.

It's doubtful that a vine on a tree will be confused with anything. But for anybody climbing trees around bare stemmed plants, this might help in winter.

Does anybody know if *poison ivy* has a look-alike?

Corylus just doesn't compare to poison oak. I think the that the native flowering current is the only shrub that can be confused with poison oak in winter, due to size and branching.


----------



## asiegler04 (Jan 29, 2007)

I would be pretty careful and going about removing that wear long pants long sleeves and gloves is a must. Then I would wash my hands with soap and warm water. Try to do that within 2 hours and wash your clothes in hot water separate to prevent cross contamination.


----------



## windthrown (Jan 29, 2007)

*My experience with PO/PI/PS*

Poison oak, poison ivy, and poison sumac. All have an oil that adhears and binds to the skin if you come in contact with it and left on the skin long enough (in my experience about 12-24 hours). The body tries to get rid of the stuff once it is attached to the skin. It cannot, so a rash often times breaks out. Many times an allergic reaction follows, either locally, or a full blown hystamine reaction that spreads and swells up your whole body (hives or wheels). My brother can come in contact with PO and the next day be all puffed up like a fried pork rind. He has to go get cortisone shots to reduce the reaction. His eyes swelled shut one time when we were kids. I get it a little reaction at the contact site, but no full-body reaction. My girlfriend gets it like my brother. 2 weeks ago she brushed 2 of her dogs that got out into it and she broke out into hives the next day. 

I learned how to ID PO from a park ranger in Big Sur when I was a kid on a nature hike. Tri-lefarious (three leaves coming from one point on the stem). Often times shiney leaves, and in the fall often times red tinge to leaves. In winter has thick stems that seem to be curved toward the bottom opening up like a vase. Spreads by seeds and by rhyzomes (underground roots). Can grow as a bush, or as a vine. All parts of the plant have the oil, even in winter. Though in winter this time of year there is far less oil on them, and far less surface area to come in contact with. You can get it from touching your clothes that came in contact with PO/PI/PS when you throw it in the laundry. read: AVOID! You can also get it from touching pets that have wandered into PO/PI/PS plants. 

Best prevention for poison oak: avoid exposure. If you do get exposed, wash all clothes that have been exposed in laundry detergent (that will break down the oils) and pets that may have come into contact with it. Then wash yourself. Tecnu is good stuff. We have lots of it here. Cheap shampoo works just as well, like Suave. Any brand with laurel sulphate or sodium (or other combination of) laurel sulphate. Orvus is good for adding to your wash to clean your clothes and to clean your pets with; it is pure sodium laurel sulphate sold as an animal/rug soap. Wash your whole body and it will break down the oil before it adhears to your skin. Since learning how to ID PO and washing clothes in Orvus and myself in cheap shampoo after being exposed to it I have not had a reaction to it. We have 105 acres of the stuff growing here. It is everywhere. Next to its evil cousins, blackberries, which commonly scratch your skin and make a PO reaction even worse. 

I do not belive that PO oils build up in your system. Your immune system reaction can increase with exposure to PO/PI/PS though and you will continue to be allergic to it over a long time. The oils bind with your skin and then shed off with your skin after your skin grows new layers from underneath the exposed area. At that time the irritation goes away, and the allergic reaction ends. Usually in about a week. Once the oil adhears to your skin there is no way to remove it. No amount ot Technu at that point is going to do any good. Take anti-itch medication like Banadryl and rub the contact area with hydrocortisone or Benadryl creme. At that time you are just trying to reduce the reaction and let the skid do its job and grow new skin. PO does not spread once it is on your skin and binds to it. The reaction is what spreads at that point. Your immune system is kicked into high gear, thinking it is an assault on your system. As such, what you are trying to do is reduce or suppress your immune system's hystymine reaction, which is why there is no antidote once you get it (it is not an organized disease that your body can fight off, it is a chemical reaction). 

I would never pull PO with bare hands, ever. Pores in your palms or not (I believe that your palsm have pores) my girlfriend made the mistake of pulling PO with her bare hands here 4 years ago and has been extremely hypersensitive to it ever since. Use gloves, and better, use gloves that can be washed. Like the cheap blue-half rubber on the palm ones that I buy at my local Stihl saw shop. Toss them into the wash with your clothes after exposure, and then go take a shower. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200... 

Also if you find a PO vine growing tall on a tree, just cut the vine and it will die from that point up. You can also spray PO with a variety of herbicides. We use Garlon and Crossbow on PO here and they do a good job to kill it off. As for how long the oils stay in the plant after it is dead, I do not know. It seems to me to break down over time. I do know that if you burn PO dead or alive the SMOKE DOES CONTAIN the irritating oil, and you can get it in your lungs. In that case, you will need to go to the hospital if you are allergic to the stuff, as you can die from shock. If I burn a pile and suspect that there is PO in it, I leave the area after the fire is started and do not allow myself to be exposed to the smoke (skin or lungs). PO is a big issue with firefighters here in the west for that reason. On their skin, and in their lungs. 

My take on PO anyway. Learn to ID, avoid, wash if exposed, and you will not get a reaction to the stuff. If you are one of the fortunate few that does not react to PO/PI/PS exposure, then this is moot. Get a job removing it and charge a lot of money


----------



## Farmer Ferd (Jan 29, 2007)

This sounds crazy but it works incredibly well,I have used everything including technu I work in PI a lot and what works for me is laundry bleach.

you can use it even after you've broken out. just put it on straight, wait a couple minutes then wash off. repeat for 4-5 days. I even use it diluted and carefully on my face avoiding my eyes.
I did an experiment about 3 years ago. I had both arms exposed to PI one arm I bleached one i didn't. the next day I bleached half the arm I already bleached then the next half again. My arm was a patchwork. The part with the most bleach was the clean. Since I have used it maybe 40 times, I have never had a problem with it. 

My wife uses it for all my clothes that have been exposed so it doesn't rub off on the furniture or the rest of our or the kids clothes.


----------



## ATH (Jan 29, 2007)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Does anybody know if *poison ivy* has a look-alike?


In the winter, mature Virginia creeper can look a lot like mature poison ivy. Generally, the "root hairs" of Va creeper are more corse than poison ivy. However, on older vines where the lower root hairs have started to go away it can be hard to tell - especially for people that don't see it as often (but even for those of us that do).

As for controlling outbreaks, I second the recomendation for Tecnu.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 31, 2007)

ATH said:


> In the winter, mature Virginia creeper can look a lot like mature poison ivy. Generally, the "root hairs" of Va creeper are more corse than poison ivy. However, on older vines where the lower root hairs have started to go away it can be hard to tell - especially for people that don't see it as often (but even for those of us that do).
> 
> As for controlling outbreaks, I second the recomendation for Tecnu.



Do you order that Tecnu and have it shipped, or do you have a local source to purchase it?


----------



## windthrown (Jan 31, 2007)

*Yep, sounds crazy...*



Farmer Ferd said:


> This sounds crazy but it works incredibly well,I have used everything including technu I work in PI a lot and what works for me is laundry bleach.
> 
> you can use it even after you've broken out. just put it on straight, wait a couple minutes then wash off. repeat for 4-5 days. I even use it diluted and carefully on my face avoiding my eyes.
> I did an experiment about 3 years ago. I had both arms exposed to PI one arm I bleached one i didn't. the next day I bleached half the arm I already bleached then the next half again. My arm was a patchwork. The part with the most bleach was the clean. Since I have used it maybe 40 times, I have never had a problem with it.
> ...




So you are not talking about Clorox liquid bleach here, are you? I am more allergic to chlorine than to PO. What brand and type of laundry stuff are you talking about here?


----------



## Manco (Feb 1, 2007)

Don't know about others, but I get poison Ivy every year and the only thing that helps with symptoms is antihistamines. Technu is worthless to me as I'm super-sensitive to it and it never worked. Even applying it before exposure, during, or after. Oral ivy seemed to be real good but you have to rmember to take it every day during the "season", which is all year for me 
I'm waiting for spring so I can identify a poison sumac tree I found. I'm allergic to it too. I placed my hand on the bark of a small tree while in the woods and noticed a reaction, knew it was poison sumac. Yes I can tell the difference between PS and PI had PI so many times.
I hear of people who after a strong reaction become immune or were born immune. What I would give to be able to rip a vine off a tree I have to work in and not itch and scratch for days. I get poison ivy in winter mainly on my face or neck and hands if I'm not wearing gloves . Sawdust from cutting through a vine.
When Sherrill advertised poison ivy rope I thought"no way I'm climbing with that" just seeing the name makes me itch:censored:


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 1, 2007)

Here is a fairly thorough page I came across, on the subject...

http://www.pesgce.com/toxicodendrondermatitis/derm.asp

It's almost too thorough for the average person, but I noticed that the nature of the site is CEUs and education.


----------



## trimwizard (Feb 5, 2007)

Regular water or soap (not rubbed) and water will do the trick to break down the oil, but we are talking ASAP after exposure. On average, I run into po/pi 
daily if working tranny lines. 
have rinsed off in stream and changed clothes right away more than once and had no reaction. 
Clothes should be washed separately, yes, but don't forget to wash climb rope ASAP also.
I carry dish soap and 5 gal of water on truck whenever possible for just such occasions


----------



## Kate Butler (Feb 6, 2007)

*talk about thorough!!*



M.D. Vaden said:


> Here is a fairly thorough page I came across, on the subject...
> 
> http://www.pesgce.com/toxicodendrondermatitis/derm.asp
> 
> It's almost too thorough for the average person, but I noticed that the nature of the site is CEUs and education.



I read the whole thing and the photographs are really disturbing. I'm a hypersensitive and just LOOKING at the photos made me itch. I'm fighting off a case of it now from contact with a dog that had the oil on her fur. I'll likely have to start the prednisone in a couple of days if I can't slap it down with topical (prescription) cream... sometimes 5 or 6 times a day will keep it from spreading... sometimes not.

Here's an excerpt from the link:

POISON IVY MYTHS
MYTH #1:	Only the leaves of poison ivy/oak/sumac can cause the rash.
FACT #1:	Nearly all parts of the plant, including stems, roots, flowers, berries, and leaves contain urushiol.67
MYTH #2:	Wearing long sleeves, gloves, and pants will always prevent a reaction to poison ivy.
FACT #2:	While wearing these articles decreases the likelihood of a reaction, sap can seep through clothes and even latex gloves, but not through heavy-duty vinyl gloves.13, 67
MYTH #3:	Burning is a safe way to dispose of poison ivy vegetation.
FACT #3:	While smoke is harmless, urushiol is stable at high temperatures, and plant particles dispersed in the smoke are allergenic and irritant.67
MYTH #4:	One can safely handle poison ivy/oak/sumac plants in the winter.
FACT #4:	Sap-containing plant parts are allergenic and irritant year-round. 67
MYTH #5:	Dead poison ivy/oak/sumac plants are no longer toxic.
FACT #5:	Urushiol remains active for at least several years in the dead plants.5
MYTH #6:	Rubbing weeds on the skin can help the rash.
FACT #6:	No weed, including Jewelweed (despite folklore to the contrary) has been shown to help the eruption. However, Jewelweed may help the pruritus.68
MYTH #7:	Anti-histamines help the rash and itching of Toxicodendron dermatitis.
FACT #7:	No study has ever demonstrated that the rash or itching of Toxicodendron dermatitis is affected by anti-histamines. In fact, at least one study has shown that they do not help.1 Histamine has not been demonstrated to be an important mediator of pruritus in any form of dermatitis. Sedating anti-histamines can make patients sleepy and care less about their pruritus.
MYTH #8:	The blister fluid of poison ivy reactions can spread dermatitis from one part of the body to another and from one person to another.
FACT #8:	The blister fluid does not contain urushiol and cannot propagate the reaction. Patch tests with the fluids cause no reaction.2, 4, 8, 69
MYTH #9:	The rash of poison ivy spreads from one part of the body to another.
FACT #9:	The rash can only spread to another part of the body if you touch one area of your body with another part that still has plant sap on it. Once you have washed with soap and water, including your fingernails, spreading the sap will not occur. The rash only seems to spread because different areas of the body have different thicknesses of stratum corneum leading to different rates of absorption of antigen, different amounts of ultraviolet exposure (that can reduce Langerhans cell activity), and different amounts of antigen present.35 Therefore, some areas of the body may respond up to two weeks later than other parts of the body.5, 8, 67
MYTH #10	Once allergic, always allergic.
FACT #10	Allergic responsiveness to poison ivy wanes with age. Many individuals, particularly those with a mild reaction to poison ivy, may lose their responsiveness as they grow older and if they stay away from poison ivy contact for a year.
MYTH #11	A physician can diagnose a rash as 'Toxicodendron dermatitis' just by looking at it.
FACT #11	While a physician may have a good idea that poison ivy or a relative is the cause of a dermatitis, nothing can tell him or her that a specific rash was due to a specific type of plant - unless there are black spots present.


----------



## ATH (Feb 6, 2007)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Do you order that Tecnu and have it shipped, or do you have a local source to purchase it?



I have bouth it locally--at normal drug stores. I suspect WalMart sells it (but I have not looked for it there).


Windthrown asked about bleach. Chlorox will dry up a rash. I have used it diluted (probably 20:1 water:bleach ratio). Of course if you are alergic to bleach, that is a bad idea.

Really anything that will dry out your skin will shorten the duration (I suspect) and itchyness (I know) of the rash. Have turnkey4099 give you a call next time he is running sheetrock through his chipper. That dust should suck the mositure right out


----------



## ATH (Feb 6, 2007)

Manco said:


> Oral ivy seemed to be real good but you have to rmember to take it every day during the "season", which is all year for me


Is Oral Ivy a brand name? (I guess it is, after typing the quesiton, I found it at Forestry Suppliers. I assume that is what you were talking about?)

I have used a couple of Homeopathic remedies. I asked a pharmacist professor friend for his thoughts on that:
He said there is no way a homeopathic remedy taken after symptoms show up will impact the rash.
I asked if taking homeopathics could build up natrual resistance. He said that is quite possible--but did not know. I am sure he would look into it more, if I asked.

My experience with the poinson ivy homeopathics:
I had been taking some pills that my father saw at a small pharmacy in eastern Ohio (Massillon Family Pharmacy). They come in a plain pill bottle with a home-printed label. I know...sounds kinda sketchy, but desperate situations call for desperate measures. I took 2 of these every day regularly for a couple of summers. Then I found a "name brand" liquid at one of the pharmacys in town over here. I can't remember the name it was "Natur"something??? It came in a little brown bottle with a eye dropper in it. I took that for a summer to 2.

I have not done either of these regularly for over 3 years. I have not had a bad poison ivy outbreak for over 7-8 years (spots here and there, but I used to get it terrible). I don't KNOW if these homeopathic remedies helped me, or if my body has just changed...but I know that if I start to get it again, I will hit the homeopathics hard again. I try to take it for a week or so at the beginning of the season (the pills are what I have left). I don't know if this helps or not, but it certainly has not hurt thus far...

Bottom line, I will not say homeopathics have 'cured' me of poison ivy, or even that they reduced my risk. I will say it is possible... I will also say I know how miserable it can be, and that I think it is worth a try. Just put them by your toothpaste or comb and make them a part of your morning routine.

Still try to use all of the other recommendations--avoid exposure, use Tecnu, wash regularly, don't untie your boots until you can wash your hands right after doing so. Wash your hands right after you put your boots on. Etc, Etc...


----------



## jbw (Feb 9, 2007)

don't be afraid to eat a leaf!!!!!!

friends think it's crazy but it really helps.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 9, 2007)

jbw said:


> don't be afraid to eat a leaf!!!!!!
> 
> friends think it's crazy but it really helps.



If breathing it in is dangerous, why wouldn't ingesting?

:computer:


----------



## windthrown (Feb 10, 2007)

*Eating PO...*



jbw said:


> don't be afraid to eat a leaf!!!!!!
> 
> friends think it's crazy but it really helps.



Yah, a friend here said that to me yesterday. I think she is crazy. But when she was a kid growing up in Eugene, OR she said that her grandmother had them eat a PO leaf and rub it on their lips if they got poison oak rash. She swears it helped. I am not going to eat a leaf to try it out though. Read: AVOID!!!


----------



## windthrown (Feb 10, 2007)

*Dormant PO patch*

I found a new PO patch growing below the house today. I may snap some photos to show and share the 'winter' look of PO. Classic examples of dormant smaller shrub form. After the photos I will spray it with Garlon. Then its, Wake up plants! Time to die!

And that goes for your little freinds the blackberries, too!


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 10, 2007)

I just did a search for "eating poison oak" "myth" and one result was www.wildlandfire.com - from the "They said it" archives...



> Fells Naptha, big old yellow bar. Works pretty well if you catch the
> oils quickly. Technu is better.
> 
> Don't eat poison oak, ivy or sumac! I knew a guy who did,
> ...



I'm going to search a bit more after eating my pancake breakfast.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 10, 2007)

Now I'm starting to find what I suspected.

One site pertaining to "stories" said that American Inidians used to eat it, but there is no documentation about whether it was some kind of witch-doctor medicine.

Here's a more science based site...

http://paipm.cas.psu.edu/pivy.html

Myth #2 covers eating poison oak.

I think what happens, is that a couple of people each year are know to get away with it, and then other people either die or have severe medical conditions.


----------



## ATH (Feb 10, 2007)

I've heard you are supposed to eat a newly developing leaf. My assumption is that it is might work like a homeopathic where the low dose in your body prevents further infection.

I have never been adventerous (dumb?) enough to try it. I bet it is more like "I have always eaten leaves, and I never got a rash." But they probably would not have gotten the rash without eating leaves either...

As for naptha...wouldn't any solvent work when you are trying to disolve an oil?


----------



## windthrown (Feb 10, 2007)

*PO/PI/PS factoids I found...*

We are all becoming experts on this stuff.  

(Originally prepared by William T. Gillis, 1973, Revised by Kenneth R. Robertson, 1993, Illinois Natural History)

Washing with strong soap merely removes excess poison from the skin, but will not remove any which has already reacted, because the poison is believed to form a complex with skin proteins and therefore is not removable short of removing the skin! Even so, it is difficult to wash off this insoluble poison completely.

Eating a leaf of poison-ivy may have disastrous results. One may surpass the normal level of immunity by the first bite; in this case one is in for an internal case of poison-ivy, occasionally known to be fatal.

The mechanism of sensitivity is not thoroughly understood. It does not behave like protein sensitivities such as hay fever. It is a hypersensitivity of the delayed type, whose mechanism is related to that of organ transplant rejection.


----------



## windthrown (Feb 10, 2007)

*PO winter photo*

Well, not the best contrast in the light today and my digital camera is not that great... but here is a photo of the little PO buggers about 2 ft tall. Note the sweeping upward arching branches from the bases. Typical of PO, an what I look for this time of year when working in the brush. There is grass in between and in the background. The red leaves there on the left are on a small blackberry vine.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 10, 2007)

That's a good patch you found, because it shows both the grey and reddish stems those plants have, as well as light tan twig ends.

I remember mowing a mound of grass for a bowling alley in Beaverton, OR, for 4 years straight. On the 4th year, among the 6" tall grass, were hundreds of poison oak that germinated that winter. They were never there before. Good thing they had some leaves. The plants were only about 5" tall. I didn't realize that it could germintate in those numbers under the right conditions.


----------



## windthrown (Feb 10, 2007)

*Right conditions for germinating PO*

Yah, you are right about PO germinating on different years. Last year was a big year here for PO germination. Our neighbors here with a vineyard noticed that the PO sprouting this year was way more than for other years. We noticed it around here too. 

They also spread by underground root runners. Another photo that I have of the whole PO patch today that did not turn out so great (too much grass and no contrast in the photo) shows the typical distribution of plants after 2 years. A few that sprouted in the middle, and then many more around them that grew from runner roots. Maybe I will spade a few up and see if they still have the roots attached. Raining here this week so I cannot spray them yet.


----------



## windthrown (Feb 10, 2007)

*Another PO ID tip in winter*

The stems on PO are usually uniform and not very tapered. So they end in a blunt, almost rounded tip rather than a point. They almost look like they have been pruned. They also have buds on the tips and a few more buds scattered around the stem. The stems can vary from red to tan to green.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Feb 11, 2007)

In about 8 days, I'm giving a lecture on tree pruning to the Brookings harbor Garden Club in Brookings, Oregon. And plan to go a day early to hike in the Redwoods.

If it's not raining much, I'm planning to go on the trail into the Redwoods to get a few more photos of the giant size poison-oak trunk that this thread started with. I'm planning to bring my video camera, and maybe a ruler too, to measure the stem / trunk diameter.


----------



## sawyerDave (Feb 12, 2007)

*Poison Ivy*

A couple of years ago, I was plowing a waterway that had been mowed down earlier in the year. This waterway is on the edge of some woods, and had had some brush growing in it earlier(JUNE/JULY). All I know is I got the job of plowing down the center of it, and the plow kept getting jammed up with an orange colored milky root...it was SUMAC! found out the hard way! Fingers on both hands swelled up like a polish sausage. Had to take prednisone for 2 weeks. There is another natural cure that I'm aware of-surprised no one has mentioned it in this thread. Jewel weed aka native impatiens aka touch-me-not is a wild flower that grows in wet areas, flowers in mid to late summer small orange flower, when ripe if you put your warm hand against the flower, it will shoot the seed at you. You take the fleshy stems of this flower/weed and mash them up with a little stream water in a 5 gal bucket, let the whole lidded bucket set in sun for a day, then use the green, medicinal smelling brew as a lotion/salve on the P.I. It works good- my grandmother said it was an old indian cure, but I aint ever seen any old indians with P.I., so I don't know:bang:


----------



## ATH (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Jewel weed*

Kate Butler said:
"MYTH #6: Rubbing weeds on the skin can help the rash.
FACT #6: No weed, including Jewelweed (despite folklore to the contrary) has been shown to help the eruption. However, Jewelweed may help the pruritus.68"

I have just rubbed the crushed weeds on a rash. It does have a cooling effect. Not sure it is any better than calamine, or others. Does making the concoction work better than commercial ointments?


----------



## sawyerDave (Feb 12, 2007)

*Jewel Weed potion*

Sorry I must not have read Kate's post in its entirety. All I can offer is empirical evidence (it works for me on most P.I.). In my experience, the slightly fermented potion works best. You make it up in the morning, let it sit covered in sun for rest of the day, then wring the stems out good, and refrigerate the remainder. Put it on at bed time and you won't itch all night. It wont last much longer than you have P.I. (week give or take):fart:


----------

