# Log splitter help!!!



## machine111 (Jun 6, 2010)

Pump replaced, valve replaced still no pressure!!!

I have Craftsman 27 ton splitter i bought used. It's only 3 years old, but it looks like it wasn't used a lot. It would split wood, unless there is a knot then it just stopped. After I read some of your posts i decided to replace the pump. Ordered 13.6 gpm Barnes pump from Northern Tool and mounted pressure gauge on the intake of the valve. When I pressed on the handle the gauge showed 0 psi and the cylinder goes down when it start splitting the wood the pressure jumps to 1200 psi. I tried to adjust relief valve but pressure wouldn't change so I thought the valve is bad. Ordered new valve put it on, the first time piston go down it's about 1200 psi, after that the pressure just drop, now when piston is coming down it shows 0 psi, when it's out full it shows 500 psi and engine runs fine. When I put a log in there it goes in about an inch, pressure shows 500 psi, but engine bogs down this time!!! Don't get it, new pump new valve, still no pressure!!! Any advice ???


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## komatsuvarna (Jun 6, 2010)

When the cylinder is extending with no load on it pressure will be low. When it gets to the log and puts a load on it thats when the pressure goes up.


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## machine111 (Jun 6, 2010)

It's Brand hydraulics valve, i Hooked it up same way as the Energy valve before. Here are some pics.


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## beerman6 (Jun 6, 2010)

dang that thing looks new.

Right oil?
Restriction?
New Filter?


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## machine111 (Jun 6, 2010)

In changed the filter and oil as soon as I got it home, it just weird, fairly new splitter and I can't get it to work right...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 6, 2010)

Part swapping is an expensive substitute for thoughtful troubleshooting. Costs much more, and usually produces poor results.


Are you ready to start troubleshooting or do you just want a list of parts to replace?


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## machine111 (Jun 6, 2010)

Due to a lack of knowledge and experience the parts swapping is sometimes the only option... Unless I can get help from better educated or experienced members.


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## AKKAMAAN (Jun 6, 2010)

What size pump was the original pump??
What size engine do you have? can I see 7.5hp on one of the pic's??
Is this new pump a two stage pump??
Is the gauge a 0-3000psi or a 0-5000psi or what??

A single stage pump, pushing 13.6 gpm at 500 psi, takes 4.0 hp

One part of your information says that flow is by passing some where (cylinder stalls at low pressure)

Other part of information says that flow is blocked somewhere (Engine bogs down)

You need to go back and test again....we want you to be sure of only one of these to scenarios above.

Also, if engine have a fuel filter, make sure it's clean together with the rest of the fuel lines....some info makes 2+2 = engine is less than 4hp (if pump is single stage)

A video clip of your test, would be informative too..... EDIT: with sound....

Home work time!!!


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## leon (Jun 6, 2010)

*log splitter puzzle*

1. replacement pump
2. replacement control valve


Ok,

you have a new valve and pump and a pressure gauge plumbed into the system.

The valve is an open centeer control valve allowing full fow of the hydraulic oil when it is centered at a low system pressure 

The oil pressure increases when the valve is moved to direct the oil to the cylinder for it to advance to sp;lit the wood or retract to split more wood or split the wood smaller.


About the valve:


Starting at the beginning

1. Is it possible there is an inlet screen in the tank you are not aware of?
It would be located where the suction fitting adapter enters the tank.


The inlet side/suction side of the pump is larger than the outlet/pressure side 
of the pump


The pressure side of the new pump must feed oil to the pressure side of the valve body(marked with a P cast in the end of valve body or labeled "Inlet" 

The valve will have an A function side and B function side. A for one side of the cylinder and B for the other side of the cylinder.


The relief cartridge in the valve body allows excess oil pressure and flow to return to tank eliminating any damage. when the valve is moved in either direction and encounters resistance to the point where it pushes open the relief cartridge which is pressure regulated by a spring inside the relief cartridge spool and the oil bypasses and enters the return to tank line and the oil flows back to the tank.





I wil add more in a moment.



The pressure guage location serves you no purpose as the actual resistance is created by the pressure of the oil pushing against the rear of the pistons surface area which is in the rear of the barrel when it is moving forward. The fitting near the base of the cylinder barrel is delivering the oil against the piston and packing encountering resistance of the work being the wood block being split.

The oil in the front of the cylinder is simply exiting and doing no work as the cylinder barrel area occupied by the cylinder rod back either through the A or B port and then to tank via the return line exiting valve body.


I would drain the oil out of the log splitter, hoses, and cylinder and then unplumb the guage and start over by removing the suction line completely checking for a suction screen, placing the guage in the line entering the rear of the barrel at the valve spool in this way:


Using a longer straight fitting with a male pipe thread entering the valve and a 90 degree female pipe thread fitting to accept the guage and adapters you have USING FITTINGS FOR HYDRAULIC FLUID PRESSURE ONLY!!!!



Refill the hydraulic system and the cylinder full before starting it to avoid air bubbles and cavitation damage.


Hydraulic pumps and valves are base tested at 1200 rpm and 100 PSI and that appears to be your issue with this system as it is set at the testing pressure only.


The instructions provided with the new valve detail how to set the relief valve pressure as the oil must be hot and at its maximum delvery volume with the engine at its high idle or slightly less.


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## machine111 (Jun 6, 2010)

The pump is a two stage pump Haldex Hydraulic Pump — 13.6 GPM, 2-Stage, Model# 1001506, engine is B&S 675 Series with 6.75 gross torque, there is a suction strainer in the inlet hose nipple, it's clean ATF fluid in the tank topped off according to the gauge. Valve is plumbed inlet from the pump tee in line with pressure gauge 0-3000 psi, A port to the bottom of the cylinder, B port to the top... About the engine bogging down, that's the strange part... when the cylinder is fully out with no log in there the pressure is about 800 psi and the engine is not bogging down, as soon as I put log there so cylinder is not fully out the pressure is 500 psi and the engine is bogging down, if I keep holding the valve handle it will stall....


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## leon (Jun 6, 2010)

*log splitter*



machine111 said:


> The pump is a two stage pump Haldex Hydraulic Pump — 13.6 GPM, 2-Stage, Model# 1001506, engine is B&S 675 Series with 6.75 gross torque, there is a suction strainer in the inlet hose nipple, it's clean ATF fluid in the tank topped off according to the gauge. Valve is plumbed inlet from the pump tee in line with pressure gauge 0-3000 psi, A port to the bottom of the cylinder, B port to the top... About the engine bogging down, that's the strange part... when the cylinder is fully out with no log in there the pressure is about 800 psi and the engine is not bogging down, as soon as I put log there so cylinder is not fully out the pressure is 500 psi and the engine is bogging down, if I keep holding the valve handle it will stall....




as their is no relief in the spool valve its the Haldex pump it needs to be properly adjusted as I mentioned.

The second stage of the pump is kicking out at too low a pressure and diverting the oil to tank.


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## Oldtimer (Jun 6, 2010)

machine111 said:


> Pump replaced, valve replaced still no pressure!!!
> 
> I have Craftsman 27 ton splitter i bought used. It's only 3 years old, but it looks like it wasn't used a lot. It would split wood, unless there is a knot then it just stopped. After I read some of your posts i decided to replace the pump. Ordered 13.6 gpm Barnes pump from Northern Tool and mounted pressure gauge on the intake of the valve. When I pressed on the handle the gauge showed 0 psi and the cylinder goes down when it start splitting the wood the pressure jumps to 1200 psi. I tried to adjust relief valve but pressure wouldn't change so I thought the valve is bad. Ordered new valve put it on, the first time piston go down it's about 1200 psi, after that the pressure just drop, now when piston is coming down it shows 0 psi, when it's out full it shows 500 psi and engine runs fine. When I put a log in there it goes in about an inch, pressure shows 500 psi, but engine bogs down this time!!! Don't get it, new pump new valve, still no pressure!!! Any advice ???



You need to replace or rebuild the piston. You described my "issue" to a perfect "T". It was the piston. My advice is to order a new 4" Prince piston from N-T.
Mine now splits or shears whatever I put on it.


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## AKKAMAAN (Jun 6, 2010)

Pump A is the smaller of the two pump units in a two stage pump.
Pump B s the larger of the two pumps units in a two stage pump.

At low pressure/high flow stage, both pump A and B will provide flow to control valve.

When pressure reaches the switch point, flow from pump B will be disconnected from the circuit (by passed to suction side via internal RV), and only pump A will provide flow to control valve. This is the high pressure/low flow stage.

Pump A can NEVER get relief internally in the two stage pump. It will need a relief valve outside, on the out put pressure line.

I think there is a combination of several issues....

1. Lack of external relief valve

2. Pump need tuning on the high pressure valve

3. Cylinder seal might be leaking

4. Engine might no perform rated power.....13.6psi/900psi takes 7.2hp, 13.6gpm/650psi takes 5.2hp....thats the low pressure high flow adjustment range.
2.9gpm/3000psi takes 5.1hp, thats the low flow/high pressure...
so if pressure is set at max 900psi, engine will get a hard time if it is low on power.......I suggest clean the entire fuel system in engine...


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## AKDriveSprocket (Jun 6, 2010)

What rpm is the engine running at?


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## Nosmo (Jun 7, 2010)

There is a lot of good information in the above posts. Please let us know when you get the problem worked out.

The splitter looks good and good luck in getting it working correctly.

Nosmo


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## brnchbrkr (Jun 7, 2010)

machine111 said:


> It's Brand hydraulics valve, i Hooked it up same way as the Energy valve before. Here are some pics.


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## brnchbrkr (Jun 7, 2010)

Splitter looks exactly like one in Menards...MTD.

Just googled around and see a safety recall you might look into.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml10/10062.html


NEWS from
CPSC and HC 

U.S. Consumer Product
Safety Commission
www.cpsc.gov Health Canada
www.hc-sc.gc.ca 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 10, 2009
Release # 10-062 Firm's Recall Hotline: (888) 848-6038 
CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908
HC Media Contact: (613) 957-2983 

MTD Recalls Log Splitters Due to Amputation Hazard
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission and Health Canada, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following products. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed. It is illegal to resell or attempt to resell a recalled consumer product. 

Name of Product: Log Splitters

Units: About 26,000 in the United States and 2,100 in Canada

Manufacturer: MTD Products Inc, of Cleveland, Ohio

Hazard: The control handle of the log splitter could fail to automatically return to the neutral position as it should and could fail to stop the splitting wedge from moving forward, posing a risk of amputation to consumers’ hands and fingers.

Incidents/Injuries: None reported.

Description: The following log splitter brand names and model numbers are included in this recall. They were sold in red, black and yellow in 21, 25, 27 and 33 ton models. The model number is located on the frame near the engine. Log splitters manufactured from November 2008 through October 2009 are included in this recall. Only models with certain serial numbers are included in this recall.

Brand Name Model Number Sold In: 
MTD Gold 24BF510B004 Hardware Stores 
MTD Gold 24BF510E204 Hardware Stores 
MTD Gold 24BF570L004 Hardware Stores 
MTD Gold 24BF570F204 Hardware Stores 
Troy-Bilt 24BF572B766 Hardware Stores 
Troy-Bilt 24AD597D766 Hardware Stores 
Troy-Bilt 24BF572B711 Lowe's 
Troy-Bilt 24AD597D711 Lowe's 
Yard Machines 24BF552B729 Home Depot 
Yard Machines 24BF550B029 Home Depot & Walmart 
Cub Cadet 24BF572B756 Home Depot 
Cub Cadet 24BF572B710 Independent Dealers 
Cub Cadet 24AD598A010 Independent Dealers 
Troy-Bilt 24BF572B766 Independent Dealers 
Troy-Bilt 24AD597D766 Independent Dealers 
MTD 24BF550M006 Walmart & Menards 
Craftsman 247.77640 Sears 
Craftsman 247.77641 Sears 

Additional recalled log splitter models were sold in Canada. See the Canadian press release with Canadian model information.

Sold at: Home Depot, Lowe’s, Menards, Sears, Walmart, hardware stores and by independent dealers from November 2008 through October 2009 for between $1,000 and $2,300.

Manufactured in: United States

Remedy: Consumers should immediately stop using the recalled log splitters and contact MTD Products Inc. to determine if their log splitter is included in the recall, to receive inspection instructions and to receive a free repair if needed.

Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact MTD toll free at (888) 848-6038 between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET Monday through Friday, and on Saturdays between 10 a.m. and 3 p.m. ET, or visit the firm’s Web site at www.mtdproducts.com




---

CPSC is still interested in receiving incident or injury reports that are either directly related to this product recall or involve a different hazard with the same product. Please tell us about it by visiting https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/incident.aspx

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of serious injury or death from thousands of types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. The CPSC is committed to protecting consumers and families from products that pose a fire, electrical, chemical, or mechanical hazard. The CPSC's work to ensure the safety of consumer products - such as toys, cribs, power tools, cigarette lighters, and household chemicals - contributed significantly to the decline in the rate of deaths and injuries associated with consumer products over the past 30 years.

To report a dangerous product or a product-related injury, call CPSC's Hotline at (800) 638-2772 or CPSC's teletypewriter at (301) 595-7054. To join a CPSC e-mail subscription list, please go to https://www.cpsc.gov/cpsclist.aspx. Consumers can obtain recall and general safety information by logging on to CPSC's Web site at www.cpsc.gov.


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## machine111 (Jun 7, 2010)

Thank you all for your help an advice, I'm just about to do some more testing before I would do anything with cylinder, also I will try to adjust the switchover valve on the pump, your posts have me thinking... if the switchover is set to high the pump doesn't go into a second stage before the engine start bogging down... I'll keep you posted. Thanks.


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## AKKAMAAN (Jun 7, 2010)

machine111 said:


> Thank you all for your help an advice, I'm just about to do some more testing before I would do anything with cylinder, also I will try to adjust the switchover valve on the pump, your posts have me thinking... if the switchover is set to high the pump doesn't go into a second stage before the engine start bogging down... I'll keep you posted. Thanks.



Good, you are on track now...
Please verify if your new valve have a built in relief valve or not!!

Test your cylinder by, EXTEND cylinder all way out, disconnect the rod side hose from the control valve, put end of hose in a bucket, and push valve for EXTEND again for a few seconds....
If oil is pouring out it is one of the reasons for your problem
(If oil is coming out more than 1-2 CUI in 10 seconds or so....could be a good idea to rebuild cylinder anyway)


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## machine111 (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes, the new valve has a relief valve, should be factory set at 2000 psi and every quarter of clockwise turn should increase pressure by about 200 psi, I tried one complete turn where it wouldn't go no more nothing changed, so I backed it out to original position.


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## Oldtimer (Jun 7, 2010)

The offload valve should be set pretty good from the factory. If you monkey with it, in and out both, and have no appreciable change...it's the cyl.
I messed with mine for a long time before figuring it out.
Do you know anyone with a similar size splitter? Perhaps you could swap in their cyl. and try it out. Only takes a few minutes, and it isn't going to hurt it.


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## machine111 (Jun 7, 2010)

I just messed with the offload valve on the pump, counterclockwise about half a turn decreased the pressure showing when the ram stopped to about 300 psi, clockwise about half a turn from the original position the pressure showed about 500 psi, but the engine stalls... 
One another thing, the detent valve should be set from the factory, I had to adjust mine, it would kick out half way on the way up, maybe indicating leaking cylinder as some of you suggested... too much back pressure on the way up???

At this point it really seems like a cylinder (it's just strange the cylinder and the splitter itself still looks brand new, I don't understand how the cylinder goes bad with a very little use on it).

I would like to test it, the only issue I have is the control valve is mounted directly on the cylinder with hydraulic fitting on the rod side of the cylinder, to disconnect this I will have to take most of the connection to the valve apart so I can unscrew this... ( I was down this road when I changed the valve, should put a union in there but after I changed the pump I was 100 % convinced it's the bad relief valve keeping the pump from going into a second stage)!!!


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## komatsuvarna (Jun 7, 2010)

It sure sounds like it could be the cylinder. Id check it next and youll know for sure. 

there is a very good possibility that im wrong about this, but i THINK that if that cylinder is leaking by on the way up, and pressureizing both sides of the piston, that would make the detent kick out early. Id check that cylinder so you can mark it off the list or fix it. Best of luck.


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## leon (Jun 7, 2010)

*log splitter*



machine111 said:


> I just messed with the offload valve on the pump, counterclockwise about half a turn decreased the pressure showing when the ram stopped to about 300 psi, clockwise about half a turn from the original position the pressure showed about 500 psi, but the engine stalls...
> One another thing, the detent valve should be set from the factory, I had to adjust mine, it would kick out half way on the way up, maybe indicating leaking cylinder as some of you suggested... too much back pressure on the way up???
> 
> At this point it really seems like a cylinder (it's just strange the cylinder and the splitter itself still looks brand new, I don't understand how the cylinder goes bad with a very little use on it).
> ...



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Please before you get your head blown off:


You have this much time invested in this thing so;

please buy these fittings 


1- female JIC to Pipe adapter 

1- one full flow female pipe/female pipe needle valve 

1- one female/female /female hydraulic T fitting-the the bottom of the T is where you place the guage

1-male pipe to male JIC adapter fitting 


install the female male adapter in on end of the needle valve.

install the male pipe to JIC male pipe adapter in the other end 

install the female/female/female T with the bottom of the T open

install the gauge in this open end 

install the Pipe to Male JIC fitting in the other end 

reattach the female swivel fitting in the T to the Make JIC fitting on the rod end of the barrel 

attach the hose to the other end of the adapters

the male JIC adapter fitting and check for leaks with the needle valve fully open at a slow engine speed.


Now you will be able to test the cylinder for leakage/ blowby

With the needle valve fully open, cycle the cylinder to be sure the air is gone back to tank and the cylinder is full of oil.



As you are cycling the cylinder start restricting the flow of the needle valve. 

then you can shut the needle valve off completely and cycle the valve against the closed needle valve and you will have pressure 

in the rod end of the cylinder and if the cylinder not bypassing with a bad piston packing or piston O ring you will have pressure and not lose it on the rod 

side of the cylinder and the excess pressure will relieve back to tank on the relief if everything else is right.


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## AKKAMAAN (Jun 7, 2010)

> I would like to test it, the only issue I have is the control valve is mounted directly on the cylinder with hydraulic fitting on the rod side of the cylinder....



Sorry machine111, my bad...I did not pay attention on your pictures when I wrote the test instruction.....follow the same instruction, but replace "extend" with "retract".....and don't forget to plug the port on the valve during the test.....return pressure and it will leak bad there.....


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## machine111 (Jun 7, 2010)

Again ton of good information, keep you posted about my progress, leon thanks for detailed description!!


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## machine111 (Jun 8, 2010)

SO!! It looks like it's official, IT'S A CYLINDER!!!, thanks to AKKAMAAN and the rest of you guys.
I let it warm up a little, extended the ram all the way, retracted all the way and shut the engine. disconnected the hose on the top of the cylinder, plugged it and held the bucket to the fitting on the top of the cylinder, started up cycle the valve to retract position, oil started pissing out, released and then held for about 3 seconds 400 psi pressure and pissing about 1 quart in 3 sec. So it looks like the cylinder is shot.... 

I should tried this in the first place, but based on the looks and shape of the splitter I blamed the pump first, figured the guy I got it from ran it low on oil or so... Then I blamed the relief valve stuck open or not working properly I tried to adjust it to no change , especially while spool handle had small oil leak while running...

So now the big question is to get the new cylinder and unless I get the same one figure the way to mount it, or get a complete SEAL kit from Sears for about $100 and try to rebuild the cylinder. It's lot easier to just get the whole new cylinder, but now I spent so much time on this thing it's personal and I really would like to open the cylinder to see if I can figure out why it would fail and leak internally when it looks brand new outside...


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## AKKAMAAN (Jun 8, 2010)

machine111 said:


> SO!! It looks like it's official, IT'S A CYLINDER!!!, thanks to AKKAMAAN and the rest of you guys.
> I let it warm up a little, extended the ram all the way, retracted all the way and shut the engine. disconnected the hose on the top of the cylinder, plugged it and held the bucket to the fitting on the top of the cylinder, started up cycle the valve to retract position, oil started pissing out, released and then held for about 3 seconds 400 psi pressure and pissing about 1 quart in 3 sec. So it looks like the cylinder is shot....
> 
> I should tried this in the first place, but based on the looks and shape of the splitter I blamed the pump first, figured the guy I got it from ran it low on oil or so... Then I blamed the relief valve stuck open or not working properly I tried to adjust it to no change , especially while spool handle had small oil leak while running...
> ...




There are ALWAYS new seals available online!!
You can probably do the rebuild your self, if you have some tools and a big size wise....start disconnect it from the splitter and show some detailed pics from the rod side end....top nut....


EDIT
Seal kit nowhere close to 100$ online....maybe 25$ at the most
http://www.epm.com/pg20.htm


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## leon (Jun 8, 2010)

*log splitter, ugh!*



machine111 said:


> SO!! It looks like it's official, IT'S A CYLINDER!!!, thanks to AKKAMAAN and the rest of you guys.
> I let it warm up a little, extended the ram all the way, retracted all the way and shut the engine. disconnected the hose on the top of the cylinder, plugged it and held the bucket to the fitting on the top of the cylinder, started up cycle the valve to retract position, oil started pissing out, released and then held for about 3 seconds 400 psi pressure and pissing about 1 quart in 3 sec. So it looks like the cylinder is shot....
> 
> I should tried this in the first place, but based on the looks and shape of the splitter I blamed the pump first, figured the guy I got it from ran it low on oil or so... Then I blamed the relief valve stuck open or not working properly I tried to adjust it to no change , especially while spool handle had small oil leak while running...
> ...




==================================================================================================================


NO, the question remains if the piston packing are also O rings AND the unknown is whether the cylider rod O RING IS the actual culprit which will let that much oil pass with your test 

Sorry to have to throw those marbles on the floor while your not looking, but if the piston packing was totally blown you would have been blasted with oil going into the bucket. 

AND if the cylinder barrel is even a little out of round due to the cylinder flexing/bending while splitting it can alllow oil to bypass the piston at the area behind the stuffing box.


leon


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## machine111 (Jun 8, 2010)

I looked some more info on it, it's an ENERGY cylinder 4.5" bore 24" stroke on the picture it's a style "E". 
http://www.mtdcanada.com/wexserver/settings/groups/servicecd/Service Advisories/mtd_103.pdf


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## machine111 (Jun 8, 2010)

To buy an exact matching new
http://cgi.ebay.com/TROY-BILT-LS27-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c54b441bb

or similar one, but cheaper 
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?catname=hydraulic&item=9-7849

Thanks for your help, I'm not sure what to do at this point I guess I would have to sleep on it...


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## machine111 (Jun 8, 2010)

The Sears part kit 753-05608
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/par...47&pathTaken=partSearch&filterPart=&pop=flush

but as AKKAMAAN suggested I can find it cheaper, as long as I know what I'm looking for.


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## leon (Jun 8, 2010)

*log splitter*

I love it when we venture into throw away cylinder territory, it helos no one when they hhave problems with log splitters

You have gone this far you might as well buy a 2 stage prince or other telescoping cylinder for that length and have lots of power and no issues 
with the cylinder bending slightlly due to resistance each time you extend the ram to split a round and simply mount the valve where you are in no danger of being smacked with a round being split.

I am sorry you have gone through all this to find the issues with the recall etc.




leon


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