# SRT with Friction Saver and Figure 8



## sv211 (Jan 11, 2013)

I have been recreationally climbing for about 6 months now, and love it! I climb using a SRT setup with an alpine butterfly knot around the branch. But b/c I climb almost everyday (on my lunch break) I wanted to use a FS to prevent unnecessary wear on both my rope and any one the trees here at the office.

So I came up with this setup, and would like some feedback.

The climbing line I use is the KMIII. The Hi-Vee shown in the picture is just what I had readily available for the photo.

I wanted to use the FS but didn't want to tie off at the base of the tree. So I passed the rope through the FS rings, then through the large ring on the figure 8. Added an Anchor Hitch, then out through the small ring on the figure 8. Backed it up with a stopper knot. I thought about tying a figure8 knot in place of the stopper knot, and loop it around the side I climb up on (kinda like a triple back up.

I tested this setup by securing the FS to my car hitch, and wrapped the rope around a boulder the size of a refrigerator, securing it with a bowline knot.
Stepped on the gas, slowly of course, and car started to bog down with no slipping of the rope splices or tails.

I have looked around but have not seen anyone rig up something similar. Am I crazy to think that this is a safe setup?

View attachment 272573


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## sv211 (Jan 11, 2013)

I tie a loop in the tail end and attach my throw line to it before setting it in place to climb. 
The system works great, the rings don't show any dings b/c the figure 8 doesn't move once my weight is on the rope.


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## sv211 (Jan 11, 2013)

first off, thanks for the input.

Would that knot be suitable for life support in the sense that the knot itself would be trying to pull through the ring. Whereas with the bowline, the loop is what is usually being pulled on.

I'm not concerned with the knot pulling through, as much as the way the knot is being used.


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## sv211 (Jan 11, 2013)

my thought was that the friction saver would eliminate the wear on the rope. I used to use an alpine butterfly loop, after pulling the rope over the branch. But the rope has to be pulled all the up and back down the other side, before going back up and setting in place.

So with the FS, my climbing rope doesn't see the wear that it would see if it was sliding over a branch...Does that make sense?

I guess the real question is, if i eliminate the figure 8 from the equation, what knot can be used as a stopper knot that would be safe for life support.

can a bowline be used as a stopper knot? or is there a better knot. 

My thought was that the 8, with the anchor hitch tied on it, would prevent the rope from seeing unnatural stress. If a bowline is being pulled in the opposite direction, knot first instead of loop, would that be dangerous?


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## sv211 (Jan 11, 2013)

The FS does pass over, and hang from the branch. This way my climbing rope isnt dragged over the branch.


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## sv211 (Jan 11, 2013)

Seriously? Well that's good to know...
Thanks for the help and insight.


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## kevin bingham (Jan 12, 2013)

I use that technique quite a bit. I just use a butterfly knot. I See no need for the eight. Far better than a running bowline because you can retrieve it after multiple redirects. I set it midline so one tail is on the ground for retrieval. Very useful trick. There are some good discussions about it on the buzz. For me, I use this trick when I can't use a base tie. It also protects the tree a bit. Nice work.


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## halltrail (Jan 12, 2013)

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, can you explain how to use the butterfly knot to set your rope over a limb for srt. My understanding is you can pull your rope back down when down right? Yes, I'm very new to climbing.


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## Carburetorless (Jan 12, 2013)

Del_ said:


> Pulling the climbing rope over the branch to set the running bowline in place doesn't cause enough wear to be concerned about. You could do it for 100 years and not get enough wear to be a problem.
> 
> There are many more important things to be more concerned about when going aloft.



+1 

I use a running bowline almost exclusively, and in some pretty nasty trees that are harder on gear than most, I can't see any signs of wear at all. 

On the other hand, if you were climbing DdRT you'd want a friction saving device for the reasons you mentioned, but for SRT it's not necessary; However, I'd put the running bowline around a trunk branch, since columnar strength is much greater than lateral strength.


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## smokey01 (Jan 12, 2013)

halltrail said:


> Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, can you explain how to use the butterfly knot to set your rope over a limb for srt. My understanding is you can pull your rope back down when down right? Yes, I'm very new to climbing.


There have been some good discussions about the use of the Alpine Butterfly vs. the Bowline for setting your canopy anchor on this site. I use the Butterfly and incorporate a 1/2 screw link as there are times when the tail of my climbing line is in use for something else and can't feed the tail back into the knot. The butterfly is easy to tie and un-tie mid-line. 
May I recommend a book called Best Practices for SRT in Arboriculture, page 61 has excellent information on the use of this knot for canopy anchors. Probably one of the most convincing arguments for the use of this knot is that it is recommended here in this thread by the very inventor of the Rope Wrench............end of argument for me.


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## ckliff (Jan 12, 2013)

*Pulling with a vehicle????*

So, you tested your setup by pulling on it (slowly, of course) with a vehicle? Nothing broke (that time!), so your setup is certainly safe? How did you measure the force applied to the rope during the pull? Have you calculated that force into the overall life of your rope? Will your rope withstand a future shock?

Research "cycles to failure".


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## halltrail (Jan 12, 2013)

smokey01 said:


> There have been some good discussions about the use of the Alpine Butterfly vs. the Bowline for setting your canopy anchor on this site. I use the Butterfly and incorporate a 1/2 screw link as there are times when the tail of my climbing line is in use for something else and can't feed the tail back into the knot. The butterfly is easy to tie and un-tie mid-line.
> May I recommend a book called Best Practices for SRT in Arboriculture, page 61 has excellent information on the use of this knot for canopy anchors. Probably one of the most convincing arguments for the use of this knot is that it is recommended here in this thread by the very inventor of the Rope Wrench............end of argument for me.



Thanks, I will order the book. I just bought on rope as well


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## sv211 (Jan 12, 2013)

I used a length of hi-vee and a short spliced section for the FS. 
I keep those ropes for testing only. And a second set for climbing so that im not climbing on rope that has been stressed.

As far as how much stress, i have no idea. But there was more force than it would ever see with me climbing. The tires started to slip.


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## ckliff (Jan 12, 2013)

sv211 said:


> I used a length of hi-vee and a short spliced section for the FS.
> I keep those ropes for testing only. And a second set for climbing so that im not climbing on rope that has been stressed.
> 
> As far as how much stress, i have no idea. But there was more force than it would ever see with me climbing. The tires started to slip.



Alrighty then. You have my blessings. :msp_biggrin: Rep sent.


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## sv211 (Jan 12, 2013)

halltrail said:


> Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, can you explain how to use the butterfly knot to set your rope over a limb for srt. My understanding is you can pull your rope back down when down right? Yes, I'm very new to climbing.



What i used to do was get the rope over the branch and back down to the ground. On one end tie 2 alpine butterfly loops one after the other. The one at the very end is what i attach the throw line to so that i can retrieve the climbing rope. The other loop i either slide the opposite end of the rope through and pull to tighten on the branch. If i have a lot of rope on the ground i would attach a biner to the second loop and clip that to the climbing side.


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## kevin bingham (Jan 12, 2013)

I mean, I use a friction saver with a butterfly tie off. The knot can't go through the rings. The friction saver allows you to go through many redirects and still retrieve. Tying a cinch knot limits you to going down the same way you came up in order to retrieve.


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## smokey01 (Jan 12, 2013)

kevin bingham said:


> I mean, I use a friction saver with a butterfly tie off. The knot can't go through the rings. The friction saver allows you to go through many redirects and still retrieve. Tying a cinch knot limits you to going down the same way you came up in order to retrieve.


Perfectly said Kevin and I see what you intended now. This is also outlined in Best Practices for SRT in Arboriculture, page 66. Not being at your level, I do most of my moving around in the tree DdRT or I use DdRT to traverse to another tree, so once I get to my canopy anchor I either switch it over to DdRT or if it is a straight shot to the other tree, I take the tail with me to recover the climbing line. I should practice more SRT in tree and now that I have a CELaynard maybe I will do that. It will be a long time before I am able to do your horse knot and zip-line, that was awesome.
One more thought and this is probably very basic and I am certainly not saying this to you Kevin but be sure to put a stopper knot on the working end so you don't descend off the rope after doing many re-directs. It also will keep you from accidentally leaving your FS in the tree when you recover your line. Also it may be a good idea to do something to the running end so a person does not mistake it and clip into the wrong line if they are working near both lines. Hope that makes sense.


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## halltrail (Jan 13, 2013)

sv211 said:


> What i used to do was get the rope over the branch and back down to the ground. On one end tie 2 alpine butterfly loops one after the other. The one at the very end is what i attach the throw line to so that i can retrieve the climbing rope. The other loop i either slide the opposite end of the rope through and pull to tighten on the branch. If i have a lot of rope on the ground i would attach a biner to the second loop and clip that to the climbing side.




Ok, that makes sense. Thank you and sorry for hijacking your thread. What source do you guys use for the book best practices for srt ..... I only saw best practices in rigging ....


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## sv211 (Jan 13, 2013)

No worries. I just may buy that book myself.


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## smokey01 (Jan 13, 2013)

sv211 said:


> No worries. I just may buy that book myself.




I thought it worthy of a new thread

Thread: Best Practices for SRT in Arboriculture


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