# Logger needs advice from arborist



## serial feller (Oct 27, 2011)

Times are tough and I have been having to take a couple of small residential jobs. I'm not trying to break into residential work, in fact I'm wanting to get back into the woods. The res jobs I am willing to take are usually pretty straight forward and with some careful aiming the trees can be dropped relatively easily. Now for the problem. I'm preparing to take down a 36" DBH walnut. The tree can be felled without hitting anything, but there is a 16" limb about 8 feet off of the ground which will hit first at about a 45 degree angle to the direction of the fall. On impact the tree will roll to the left (violently) into an immature walnut, and the limb will likely split and damage the butt log as well. 

There is nothing under this limb but I would like some technique ideas to cut this limb off so that it breaks and falls straight down with no drama. I've never taken a limb this big. I'm concerned about cut depths and the breaking point. Most of the trees I take don't have this problem and if they do I can pick a different direction of fall. This tree is a big ugly misshaped freak. Like I said above, this limb is as big as a small tree. Thanks.


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## randyg (Oct 28, 2011)

*Get an arborist*

I know 8 feet off the ground is probably very tempting to take on off a ladder or out of a pickup bed, but the most important thing to doing aerial work is to NOT rely on support from below when making the cut. If the expence of purchasing even rudimentary climbing gear for one limb is not an option, might just pay an arborist a couple bucks to cut it for you. I would give this advice to even the most skilled of DIY do it yourselfer's.


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## Greener (Oct 28, 2011)

serial feller said:


> Times are tough and I have been having to take a couple of small residential jobs. I'm not trying to break into residential work, in fact I'm wanting to get back into the woods. The res jobs I am willing to take are usually pretty straight forward and with some careful aiming the trees can be dropped relatively easily. Now for the problem. I'm preparing to take down a 36" DBH walnut. The tree can be felled without hitting anything, but there is a 16" limb about 8 feet off of the ground which will hit first at about a 45 degree angle to the direction of the fall. On impact the tree will roll to the left (violently) into an immature walnut, and the limb will likely split and damage the butt log as well.
> 
> There is nothing under this limb but I would like some technique ideas to cut this limb off so that it breaks and falls straight down with no drama. I've never taken a limb this big. I'm concerned about cut depths and the breaking point. Most of the trees I take don't have this problem and if they do I can pick a different direction of fall. This tree is a big ugly misshaped freak. Like I said above, this limb is as big as a small tree. Thanks.



I agree with the other comment here-stay way from ladders here, if at all possible. But, you will have to secure a position up close to, and preferrably above and to the side, of the branch to cut it. What it the angle of the limb relative to the main trunk? This is key. Because branches on broad trees can push out pretty far from the main trunk, depending on the angle and length of the limb. So when you say "nothing under it" you need to account for however much it angles toward the sky (from 90 degrees/perpendicular to trunk); the sharper the angle, the further out from the tree the branch will push when it's cut. Also, the faster the speed of the cut, the less far out from the tree the branch will lay. Short of actuallly seeing the tree, this is my general response. If you just do a superficial undercut in the branch, then a jump cut through it from the top (the two kerfs should line up, even) with a high power saw and a 20" bar, it should pretty much fall straight to the ground (butt may drop a bit depending on the speed of the cut through the wood). The slower the cut, the more the end of the branch will drop, though, causing it to fall further out from the tree. Keep that in mind.


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## oscar4883 (Oct 28, 2011)

Can you leave the lead on and butt-tie the tree to the stump to prevent much roll?


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Oct 28, 2011)

Rent a small man lift and take it from the tip and cut it into small 3' chunks till you hit the main trunk.


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## Guido Salvage (Oct 28, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Rent a small man lift and take it from the tip and cut it into small 3' chunks till you hit the main trunk.



Since the thread is titled "_Logger needs advice from arborist_" which one are you playing today?

A 16" limb will be heavy and could have a lot of stored energy and potentially be deadly if you do not have the proper experience and equipment. My advice would be to either skip the job or have someone who is qualified remove the limb. If the trunk is saleable, you should be able to more than cover the cost.


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## newsawtooth (Oct 28, 2011)

Can you work down from the tip with a pole saw? As for the limb falling straight down, it will require an undercut and fast top cut. Faster than the tip falling after the relief (top) cut starts to open.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Oct 28, 2011)

That is why I saw use a man lift and work from the tip back. I did this on several trees near my bosses moms house before they were felled.


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## lone wolf (Oct 28, 2011)

[video=youtube;5wmUoeK52lw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wmUoeK52lw[/video]Motorized pole saw.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Oct 28, 2011)

Pole saw should work. Rent one or buy. Git-er-done..


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## millbilly (Oct 30, 2011)

couple of ideas

first one: make an under cut in the limb about 18" from the trunk just up to the point that it almost pinches, this is a little risky because if it pinches your stuck. Then notch and drop the tree and the limb will fold and break at the under cut.

If I were doing it I would use a jump cut, this is done almost the same as above except make your under cut depth 1/3 into the limb. For your top cut start about 1" closer to the trunk of the tree and cut down parallel to your bottom cut. As you cut down you will watch your bottom cut close at this point back off the cut get your rpms up and hit your cut again and it should jump off and land flat.

Now that I think about it just be carefull and stay above and behind your cut, Its second nature to me, but I've made that cut thousands and thousands of time.


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## Greener (Oct 31, 2011)

millbilly said:


> couple of ideas
> 
> first one: make an under cut in the limb about 18" from the trunk just up to the point that it almost pinches, this is a little risky because if it pinches your stuck. Then notch and drop the tree and the limb will fold and break at the under cut.
> 
> ...



I like this approach too, but would consider nipping the sides of the cut just a but-just enough to penetrate the cambium, before you finish the back (top) cut.


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## serial feller (Oct 31, 2011)

millbilly said:


> If I were doing it I would use a jump cut, this is done almost the same as above except make your under cut depth 1/3 into the limb. For your top cut start about 1" closer to the trunk of the tree and cut down parallel to your bottom cut. As you cut down you will watch your bottom cut close at this point back off the cut get your rpms up and hit your cut again and it should jump off and land flat.


 
First, thanks to all for the tips. I am a little outside of my normal MO on this one but I'm confident I can get it done safely. 

I'll probably use the jump cut. I'll take it in several sections instead of taking the whole thing at once to reduce the weight. Pinching the bar is my biggest concern. I'd hate to have to remove the power head and go to a different saw and start over. I only have one 16" bar. If I lose my little saw in the kerf I'll have to use my MS650 up there and that doesn't sound like fun, especially not having an ideal platform to work from. I'm going to be sure I'm tied off to the branch inside of the cut because falling sucks. Actually falling doesn't hurt, it's the rapid deceleration when you hit the ground that ruins your day! :msp_w00t: Falling on the saw isn't good for your health either.

I'll try to get some pics. I'm scheduled to tackle this job on Thursday.

Keep the ideas coming if you have 'em!


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## defensiblespace (Oct 31, 2011)

I have yet to see a pole saw with at least a 16" bar. If you are going for precision on the cut, stay away from pole saws with a limb that size.


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## Greener (Oct 31, 2011)

serial feller said:


> First, thanks to all for the tips. I am a little outside of my normal MO on this one but I'm confident I can get it done safely.
> 
> I'll probably use the jump cut. I'll take it in several sections instead of taking the whole thing at once to reduce the weight. Pinching the bar is my biggest concern. I'd hate to have to remove the power head and go to a different saw and start over. I only have one 16" bar. If I lose my little saw in the kerf I'll have to use my MS650 up there and that doesn't sound like fun, especially not having an ideal platform to work from. I'm going to be sure I'm tied off to the branch inside of the cut because falling sucks. Actually falling doesn't hurt, it's the rapid deceleration when you hit the ground that ruins your day! :msp_w00t: Falling on the saw isn't good for your health either.
> 
> ...



Just be very conservative with the undercut. Inch or two should be enough actually-as long as you come through quick on the back/top cut. If you aren't taking the who branch at once, you should definitely be good.


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## millbilly (Oct 31, 2011)

Greener said:


> Just be very conservative with the undercut. Inch or two should be enough actually-as long as you come through quick on the back/top cut. If you aren't taking the who branch at once, you should definitely be good.


 
If you make your under cut an inch or two, the branch will rip way before you get even close to making it jump. He said the branch is 16 inches in diameter, imo it should be more like 5 inches. Also when you make your undercut watch the tips and not the cut, the tips show greater movement.


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## Greener (Nov 1, 2011)

millbilly said:


> If you make your under cut an inch or two, the branch will rip way before you get even close to making it jump. He said the branch is 16 inches in diameter, imo it should be more like 5 inches. Also when you make your undercut watch the tips and not the cut, the tips show greater movement.



Your scenario sounds good as long as the branch is only about 10 or 12 feet long so there is not much weight sitting on the undercut when it is made. If it is the length that I imagine it is (probably pretty good length if the diameter is 16 inches), it will start to sit on the bar if you under cut more than a quarter of the way through. The depth of the undercut is important here, but the amount of weight/bind on it is at least as important. The key is to come fast through the back cut (top in this case), and even with a superficial undercut it will get through in plenty of time for the butt of the branch to drop first. This has just been my experience with broad trees. Watching the tip has worked for me on tops and spars, but with large horizontal branches, by the time I saw movement, my bar was pinched. Many may disagree with me here but this has been my experience in cutting broad trees over the past few years.


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## troythetreeman (Nov 1, 2011)

you get it done?


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## serial feller (Nov 1, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> you get it done?


 
Hey Troy, I expected to hear from you sooner! Thursday is the day. I hope to be in and out of there in a couple of hours. It's 2 trees, both walnut. The small one is over 30", but neither will grade particularly well. All I have to do in knock 'em down and take the logs to the mill. The tops are the LO's problem, so basically a cut and run. The LO just wants them down and is capable of the clean up on his own. LO gets a wee percentage. I should come out OK for a 1 day job if the limb doesn't kill me.


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## troythetreeman (Nov 2, 2011)

best to get above it, then undercut, top cut and let it buck
dont cut from a ladder bud, read some rock climbing info, make a rope harness for yourself, use a ladder to get onto the limb, set up a repel system above it and then make your cut
have the homeowner move the ladder before you cut, then put it back so you can climb down if thats how your most comfortable
that or buy a cheap suspension and/or positioning belt and make or buy a lanyard
most of my equipment is a lot better then what i started with, but what i started with did work
be safe man
for one cut it doesnt need to be fast, light, or easy to use, just secure you to the tree, in a stable position, above the cut
the most stable position will likely be sitting on the limb, back to the tree, cut out about arms length from your body, dont reach and dont cut too close to yourself
and if forced to choose, you or the saw, kill your saw, not yourself
if you sit on the limb, legs hanging down, be ready to move them, dont drop the butt onto your foot, that will hurt, but if your cuts are correct, itll kick out away from the tree, not come back into it
i sometimes sit out far enough i can lock my ankles under the limb behind me
dont "paint yourself into a corner", by that i mean, dont cut the stub so short you cant get off it


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## serial feller (Nov 2, 2011)

troythetreeman said:


> i sometimes sit out far enough i can lock my ankles under the limb behind me


 
Isn't that hard on the giblets? 

Well, the weather man is calling for rain late tonight into tomorrow morning. The LO called and said the ground gets "really soft" and wants to wait until next week. Unfortunately there is no way to get the logs out without driving the truck into the grass or skidding the logs to the truck. Either way would make a big mess on soft ground, sooooo...to be continued.


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## freeweight (Nov 2, 2011)

jesus christ...POWER PRUNER ,end of story


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## serial feller (Nov 2, 2011)

freeweight said:


> jesus christ...POWER PRUNER ,end of story



I'm not familiar with that brand of pruner, but it doesn't matter; I don't own one of any brand. Post a pic of the jesus christ power pruner. Will it fall the tree too?


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## randyg (Nov 3, 2011)

*Another perspective*

First off, Serial I am glad you have that ability to "fast forward" and predict what is about to happen before you put things in motion. That is why you need to remove this 16" limb, you have determined it will be trouble. Have you "fast forwarded" the cutting of just the limb? IF, that limb grows out horizontal (parallel to the ground) for a bit, and then curves gently upward for a looooong way which would be very typical of walnut, the tendency will be for the butt to jump back up into the tree quickly as the weight of the tip pulls down like a teeter totter. This happens quicker than you can swing out of the way. It is even faster yet if you are not expecting, (but seems like slow motion).

Since it seems you are determined to go ahead with this alone, and taking in sections implies even more advanced aerial work, you might just treat it as you would a heavy headleaner that you are trying to fell off at a 45. With a very wide notch, and thick hinge wood you can make that limb just sweep sideways to the ground and not even break the hingewood. Then just walk out and whittle from the tip back. Should have a large enough diameter to plunge that back cut and finish with the tensioned strap, so the thing does not barber and split into the log anyway.

GOOD LUCK and GODSPEED


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## serial feller (Nov 3, 2011)

randyg said:


> not even break the hingewood. Then just walk out and whittle from the tip back.



That's good stuff, things I would not have even considered in my lack of aerial experience. I'll have to keep that in mind when I go back to complete the job. Having not thought about that as an option before, I'll have to reevaluate the limb before I cut it. I cant say without having the tree right in front of me, but that _*might*_ be a good safe option. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Nov 3, 2011)

Or just call my brother. He lives down your way. It suck to pick up body parts. Your own off the ground. Be safe.


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## serial feller (Nov 16, 2011)

Well gang, between the pattern of rainy days and scheduling conflicts I still haven't been able to do it yet. Just spoke with the LO and he wants to be there when I do it. He isn't available this week and I was hoping to get it done Thurs or Fri. Next week is a no-go because of rain Mon and Tues and then its Turkey Day. Hopefully the following week will be dry. Stay subscribed to the thread, I'll post when I have more. uttahere2:


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## troythetreeman (Nov 16, 2011)

if you climb it and sit on the limb like i talked about, yeah, watch your junk
i dont sit on them near as often as i used to


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