# Munter Hitch???



## MS TreeMonkey (May 25, 2006)

I just wanted to ask a simple question to the experienced climbers out there. I've seen the Munter Hitch get some flack in some other threads posted around here. Well, most of what I do is tree removal (label me a hacker, i guess) so after i limb my way up the tree, instead of climbing back down, i repel back down using a munter hitch. Is this stupid? I've heard some say a munter hitch can get so hot it'll cut itself! Oh, and i'm using a 3-strand, 1/2" braided rope.


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## arboristman (May 25, 2006)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> I just wanted to ask a simple question to the experienced climbers out there. I've seen the Munter Hitch get some flack in some other threads posted around here. Well, most of what I do is tree removal (label me a hacker, i guess) so after i limb my way up the tree, instead of climbing back down, i repel back down using a munter hitch. Is this stupid? I've heard some say a munter hitch can get so hot it'll cut itself! Oh, and i'm using a 3-strand, 1/2" braided rope.



your useing 3 strand or 1/2 braided rope?
forget the muenter hitch. use the blakes.sometimes il use the tautline if i wanna come down faster(way to fast,against the books,if you will,a hell of a rush,and i dont recomend) as it wont heat up as much.
overall the blakes hitch it by far the BEST.


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## arboristman (May 26, 2006)

i will say screw the 3 strand rope.its much weaker,and 1/2 will not meet ansi standards.get used to the 12 strand 1/2.its by far the best.
use the blakes hitch.i do like to acend rapidly,to heat the rope,this will make tieing the knot easier for the next time you tie it.it"folds" into place and "sets" where you want it to.(provided you have it where you want it in the first place)
but this cant be recomeded in any book.you will see what i meen.and i dont recomend it either buddy.:taped:


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## rbtree (May 26, 2006)

MS, I'm assuming you are fixing a line, coming down it, and then pulling the tree over with the line. If that's correct, the Muenter will work just fine if you know how to safely control it. some suggest redundancy and use a traditional friction knot to backup the main descent device. A figure 8 will work as well of course.


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## coydog (May 26, 2006)

when I use a munter to descend on my pull line I keep my flip line around the tree and just sort of walk down real lightly without really setting my hooks, tending my flip linewith one hand and the munter with the other, i don't like to depend on pull lines for life support. not a good idea to use a blakes or tautline on a single rope.


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## 046 (May 26, 2006)

"One of the best methods for belaying with climbing ropes doesn't require any additional device at all. The Munter Hitch was chosen as the U.I.A.A. method of choice ages ago, and is still considered to be an excellent method. For many years I avoided it because it has nylon running on nylon,,,,,,,,,,,,, The Munter Hitch can also be used as an emergency rappelling rig, although there are better carabiner rappel options available."

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/MiscBelayPages/MiscBelay000.html


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## sawn_penn (May 26, 2006)

046 said:


> "One of the best methods for belaying with climbing ropes doesn't require any additional device at all. The Munter Hitch was chosen as the U.I.A.A. method of choice ages ago, and is still considered to be an excellent method. For many years I avoided it because it has nylon running on nylon,,,,,,,,,,,,, The Munter Hitch can also be used as an emergency rappelling rig, although there are better carabiner rappel options available."
> 
> http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/MiscBelayPages/MiscBelay000.html



Everyone should know how to use a munter, because you can tie it one handed as you pull a rope over to a carabiner on your harness. An excellent backup that is always available!

However, like anything that has a rope twisting through it, it tends to twist the rope over time. Figure-8's do this too. Devices that keep the rope "straight" (well, in a single plane anyway) like an ATC, sticht, petzl stop, rappel rack, etc don't twist the rope. Over time twisting really effects the handling characteristics of the rope.


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## MS TreeMonkey (May 26, 2006)

rb, that's right - i descend down the same line that I pull the tree over with. I DO THOROUGHLY inspect the rope after the tree has been pulled over to make sure there are no severe abrasions or cuts due to the felling of the tree. I don't use a backup flipline upon descent though. The munter hitch is my only security, but i can control it fine. I'm having trouble learning to ascend into the tree without my hooks. I have several pruning jobs lined up which i know i don't need to use hooks on. Recently I have had to limb some enormous oaks (6' diameter is big here in Mississippi) and i've just been using a ladder to get to the first branch - i can monkey my way up from there. I' ve tried using the munter hitch on the ascent also and - boy - it's awful tiring - i think i maybe doing it wrong. :bang: any ideas?? - i've thought about just buying a petzl ascender, but i don't know??

arboristman - I use a 3 strand rope because i can back braid my rope snaps on there myself - i don't know what to do with a 12 strand rope!!


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## sawn_penn (May 26, 2006)

Munter on ascent? What a horrible thought!


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## woodchux (May 26, 2006)

I like a munter hitch to come down on, 
when i forget my figure 8 in the truck.

Do yourself a Big Favor, and spend 70+ bucks on another rope (to be used only for life support).

We dont want to hear about you gettin hurt !

Be Safe


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## Ax-man (May 26, 2006)

coydog said:


> not a good idea to use a blakes or tautline on a single rope.



Why not???? I don't use a Blades or Tautline anymore but I did when they were popular before Fr. P. and Knuts. This is the way I back up my primary lanyard as a second safety when chunking down a spar, caribiner choke on the rope, with the climbing hitch on single line as a way to get down or have someone get me down if an accident were to happen. 

Granted hitches react different on a single line because all your weight is on the hitch, but the role of the hitch is still the same as if the hitch were employed in a split or closed loop climbing system.

I would rather use these hitches to decend on a single line instead of a figure eight or a Munter. Much saver IMO and avoid twisting of the line

Larry


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## coydog (May 27, 2006)

for one thing they can bind up on a single line, especially so on three strand, add some pine pitch to the equation, and it can truly freeze. 

when i safety off my climb line below my flip for removals i choke it off to my climbing knot with a munter behind it, the munter regulates the rate of descent and keeps my climbing knot from binding and building up excessive friction, and this system is only a safety back up, if I were simply descending single line I would use a fig 8 or munter only. If I was climbing single rope a lot I would use a fig 8 or other descender because using a munter all the time is hard on ropes long term. it is my personal belief that a climber that cannot tie a blakes or tautline has no business being in a tree, I don't think the blake's or tautline could ever really been considered popular choices for descending single rope however.


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## coydog (May 27, 2006)

woodchux said:


> Do yourself a Big Favor, and spend 70+ bucks on another rope (to be used only for life support).
> 
> We dont want to hear about you gettin hurt !
> 
> Be Safe


 i sure do second that!
get ahold of the "tree climber's companion" and learn some basic knots and hitches too!"


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## clearance (May 27, 2006)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> rb, that's right - i descend down the same line that I pull the tree over with. I DO THOROUGHLY inspect the rope after the tree has been pulled over to make sure there are no severe abrasions or cuts due to the felling of the tree. I don't use a backup flipline upon descent though. The munter hitch is my only security, but i can control it fine.


Here is what worked for me, removing many trees by the line. Run up the tree, take of some branches, top it, whatever, or do nothing to it, then tie in with a tautline (figure 8 after, always), come down. Tie a running bowline, pull it up and pull the tree over. Done it so many times its a blur, I would not use the Munter to rappel, I like knots I can let go of and stop. Tautline works good, so does the split tail with a Blakes hitch. I know its "wrong" to rig or pull over with your climbing line. If you do, don't be put any big loads on it, when it starts to wear, make it a dedicated rigging line only.


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## darkstar (May 28, 2006)

*twist*

I was taught a valuable lesson from a famous belgian rockclimber,Jean Paul Finnie. If you correctly attach the munter to the locking biner the line will not twist.Jean had recently done the 3rd acent of "just do it" 14bc the hardest rockclimb in america ,at that time and he was belayed with a munter . 

He said i was suooo stuupid for nots knowininzz thats the knot vould not twist if zee knot were corecctly attached to zee line...


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## Tree Machine (May 28, 2006)

I'm very curious how John Paul sets his Munter. I mean, if a Munter is a Munter, and anything set that is anything other than a Munter would not be a Munter. Now, there is something akin to a reverse Munter, but I don't know if it has a name. 

Can you better describe what Jean Paul had going on?


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## BigUglySquirrel (May 28, 2006)

*Are you kidding?*

Sweet mother. Some of you guys are using a pretty dang complicated setup to come down on. If you've got a crotch, set your line to it and friction hitch. You can timber hitch or runnin' bowline to have a pull line for the spar. If not, tie the thing off, set a Munter hitch and come down. Feed it slowly and it won't generate the friction that burns and glazes your ropes. Are you guys REALLY bailing at terminal velocity on the worksite? Give me a break. 

This guys got MUCH bigger problems than figure 8's and mechanical devices if he's trying to body thrust on a Munter hitch! Gravity and common sense have him pretty square on the coming down part....what he really needs is some straight dope on using friction hitches and spikeless climbing. 

I'm not knocking the fella that posted the original thread (I don't recall the handle...sorry) He's learning and trying to transcend his current practices. Kudos to that. Hopefully this site will help you and feel free to PM if you want. I know it's helped me. Good luck.

http://www1.brcc.edu/murray/Arboriculture/tree_climbing/default.htm


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## BigUglySquirrel (May 28, 2006)

darkstar said:


> I was taught a valuable lesson from a famous belgian rockclimber,Jean Paul Finnie. If you correctly attach the munter to the locking biner the line will not twist.Jean had recently done the 3rd acent of "just do it" 14bc the hardest rockclimb in america ,at that time and he was belayed with a munter .
> 
> He said i was suooo stuupid for nots knowininzz thats the knot vould not twist if zee knot were corecctly attached to zee line...



Perhaps you could enlighten us because I don't care how I tie it the LASKJFEIOU thing twists like a bag of pretzles everytime. Thanks!


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## sawn_penn (May 29, 2006)

BigUglySquirrel said:


> Perhaps you could enlighten us because I don't care how I tie it the LASKJFEIOU thing twists like a bag of pretzles everytime. Thanks!



A munter is a munter is a munter. Using one belaying is different to using one descending. If you have a rope that twists and runs outside a flat plane, when it is loaded it will twist the rope.


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## darkstar (May 29, 2006)

*ok*

So what is the difference from belaying and decending when you lower the climber back down from a 40 metre's ? Ill explain later after memorial day fun . Dark ps just play with the munter a bit youll see how to attach it to the large locking biner there are only 2 ways one twist and one barely twist at all .


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## arboristman (May 29, 2006)

*NEVER! should you use a rope that is used for pulling/lowering as a life line!!!
NEVER!*

always use a seperate rope.your life line for climbing only.
if you cant use a trow bag and a running bowling to set a rope for pulling over a tree,simply climb up as always with your life line,and the pull line hooked on for JUST that purpose,to tie it to the tree via bowling running bowline,since im up there anyway at that point il ues the clove hitch followed by 2 half hitches.
then as always tie in with your life line and use your fav friction hitch,with a hitch if anything goes wrong,you simply let go and stay put,easy as that.
NEVER trust your life on the pull rope EVER! that rope is NOT called a "life line" for a reason. if you dont have many ropes,and a designated life line,then your going to have a very bad accident.......sooner or latter! becarefull guys! WOW!


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## MS TreeMonkey (May 30, 2006)

BigUglySquirrel said:


> This guys got MUCH bigger problems than figure 8's and mechanical devices if he's trying to body thrust on a Munter hitch! Gravity and common sense have him pretty square on the coming down part....what he really needs is some straight dope on using friction hitches and spikeless climbing.
> 
> I'm not knocking the fella that posted the original thread (I don't recall the handle...sorry) He's learning and trying to transcend his current practices. Kudos to that. Hopefully this site will help you and feel free to PM if you want. I know it's helped me. Good luck.
> 
> ...


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## MS TreeMonkey (May 30, 2006)

Ok - what about this - does anyone use the petzl ascenders? Would that be a legitimate solution to my problem, or do you think i'm just side stepping the real problem instead of fixing it. See, i've got 17 pines that i'm supposed to limb sometime this week and i definitely don't want to use spikes to ascend, so i either have to buy a couple of ascenders and footlock or learn a hitch for the body thrust! Go ahead, lemme have it!:yoyo:


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## Tree Machine (May 30, 2006)

You should only use ascenders if you want the ascent to be easier. There is nearly zero friction, the ascender won't lock or bind up, and with care will last you your career.


Just because you choose an easy means of ascent over a more difficult one doesn't make you less of a climber, nor do you need to change your overall climbing system. It's not a "instead of". It's an "in addition to". An ascender just allows you more options that weren't there before, both in ascent and certain rigging scenarios.

Backing up that ascender, though, is a must. 

I'd still like to see the non-twist Munter version. Please quit trying to use Munter for ascent. It causes all of us pain to see you suffer like that.


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## Tree Machine (May 30, 2006)

Instead of a couple ascenders, I'd recommend the Kong Dual ascender. Using TWO seperate ascenders is too many pieces (unless one of them is a Pantin foot ascender) in what should be a simple, straight-forward, uncomplicated, easy-to use system .

This thread, though is about the Munter, so to get into a conversation about ascent with ascenders is just way off topic. There are literally dozens of threads that have to do with the use of ascenders and the backing up of them.


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## BigUglySquirrel (May 31, 2006)

Instead of ascenders buy a better rope. I think we talked about it earlier in the thread and the problems you mention with the rope binding could be contributed to the rope type. A 12 or 16 strand climbing line should work nice and smooth for you. You'll be able to go up and down...not just up as with the ascender.


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2006)

*whatever buddy*

[QUOTE.overall the blakes hitch it by far the BEST.[/QUOTE]
well that is a crock of chit


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2006)

*whatever buddy*



arboristman said:


> i will say screw the 3 strand rope.its much weaker,and 1/2 will not meet ansi standards.get used to the 12 strand 1/2.its by far the best.
> 
> thats another crock of chit


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 25, 2006)

i too think 3 strand meets the tensile standards; and can give more elastic absorbtion of shock than some other lines of same materials. Though it has it's problems, it is cheaper, easier splicing/filed splicing and longer wearing for a lot of uses. i all ways liked it for split tail for Blake's and Tautline; different grip, cheaper, easier to make own pliced eye and longer wearing etc.

To me, a Muenter is a Backhand Hitch on a krab. Placed as a friction brake around a trunk for lowering; it can also be used as a 2/1 inline force in the Bitters to perpendicularly bend the Standing Part to sweat it tighter and/or lift. This moves the BackHand around some, so slip it back proper to straighten Standing and leverage the Standing with the 2/1 Bitters again to take even more purchase of line on your/control side, thereby tensioning line more on the load side of Backhand Hitch(where 'line purchase' length was taken from).

The Backhand can be completed for locking off as a Cow or Timber etc. Also note; when using either Cow or Timber and releasing under tension, we can break them down to Backhand/Muenter, then release pressure gradually/ lower etc. Placed on a krab, we can control light load or self belay with Muenter/ Backhand. But this makes a much tighter bight/ harder on the line and leveraging it weaker than a Backhand/Muenter on a larger mount like trunk etc. But like a fig.8 we can have twisting (hockling in 3 strand) and coiling of the line. This can be partially alleviated by making sure line has no/no twists sleeping in it, not using a stiffer line, allowing tail of line to float or other wise allow twists to come off; and holding the Bitters inline, not perpendicular to the Standing IMLHO. The Muenter/ Backhand takes these complications a step further and grinds the rope against it's own self(as opposed to fig.8). When locking off a Muenter/ Backhand on a krab we will perform 2 Half Hitches after it and say it is 'muled'; rather than using Cow or Timber. Lock off of fig.8 can be in a pinch of Bitters under Standing against the 8 for a soft lock or/ in combination with some 2 overhands strategy around fig.8 for a hard lock.

Backhand on krab/ Muenter should be maid with end of line on spine side of krab, to purposefully not unscrew gate with the running of the Bitters byt he gate. Some even taking extra friction around spine, but this gives more twists too. Also, Backhand/Muenter is reversible; but not if twisted around spine, and the reversing placing a proper tail on spine side to the reverse of the tail on gate side. Still the reverse function can make a soft lock/hold, that force must pop reverse out of, which reverses the tail to hopefully spine side if calculated right. Another problem with Muenter over Friction Hitch, is that the Muenter won't dead man(self lock off unmanned) suddenly by it self if you get coconut dented and pass out etc. while descending. A man on ground can grab tail and stop ya in SRT or DdRT with Muenter though, as it travels fastest on slack line, as opposed to Frictin Hitch passing fastest over a stretched line(but groundie grabbing tail of DdRT will still stop Friction Hitch by running you out of line and you shouldn't descend on Friction Hitch in SRT).


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## (WLL) (Dec 25, 2006)

*a munter hitch*

another trick that is good 2 know the first pic shows correct hitch used in a dangerous way which can open gate and fail.
the second pic is proper but still and does get used in a wrong way so use great caution and good scents.
thanking the ones that care


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## JonnyHart (Dec 26, 2006)

Right, don't descend a single line with a friction hitch, use the munter or fig 8, and back it up with a prussic or some type of friction hitch.


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