# Fema Debris Removal



## 1984 Noob (Jan 9, 2006)

So i live in orlando, i started working in the tree business a year ago....

There will be at least one major hurricane hitting florida next year, not a surprise.


I want to get about 3 early 90's f-350s coupled with dually/double axel 35 cub/yrd gooseneck dump trailers.


does anyone know about the ins to becoming a sub-contractor...or a contractor for that matter. i heard contractors get 14-16 $/yrd is this true?


all the searches i did brought up treework during hurricanes, but not really cleanup.


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## treeman82 (Jan 9, 2006)

I could be wrong on this topic, but a 35 yard dump trailer is going to be CDL material, in addition to the fact that you would need at LEAST a 10 wheeler to pull such a trailer.


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## Diesel JD (Jan 9, 2006)

Hey I have a good friend in the insurance business, maybe I will ask him, because I am kind of interested myself and you are the 2nd person to ask...so I'll post back what I find out if I remember to ask him. ANd it's by no means a gauarantee that we will get hit next year... so I would hate to stake my fortune to it...yet be ready...there is money to be made
J.D.


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## Diesel JD (Jan 9, 2006)

In Florida...your reg. driver license is good for up to 26,000lbs as per DOT regs. If this trailer will weigh more than that the F350 can pull it sure, but this is nota good or safe idea.


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## TreeJunkie (Jan 10, 2006)

try 25 cube that's about the extent of what you will be getting w/ a one ton truck.

I don't know what the main contractors make per yard. However i know that what all the subs this year w/ grapple trucks were making about 7 per yard. If you are going to have to have someone load your trailers then you should probobally only expect to be getting about 4 bucks per yard. 
My opinion is ditch the pickup and trailers and buy a grapple truck. One grapple will make you 5x what those trailers will. And you'll only need one driver.


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## vharrison2 (Jan 10, 2006)

1984 Noob,  welcome to the site. Hurricane Wilma hit here in Marathon, Fl pretty hard. The company that held the contract for clean up down here was Grubbs Emergency Service. They are out of Brooksville, FL. I am sure they could help you with the rates that are being paid per cub/yard.

http://www.grubbses.com/contact.htm?


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## BlackenedTimber (Jan 10, 2006)

yo 1984,

I actually just came back from Florida doing debris removal, in the the DeerField Beach area. Contractors DO NOT get 14 dollars a yard. You will be lucky to get 7 or 8 bucks a yard, because there are so many subs biting at the rates untilit trickles down to you. Also, If you are not loading yourself, dont expect to get better than 4 bucks a yard. As far as the trailers, the yardarge all depends on what you pay the guy that checks in your trucks. its sickening, but true. I saw tag trailers that were rated for TWICE the yardage of my peterbilts. The goosenecks are flimsy, and expensive, and if your gonna shell out that dough, just by some beat up triaxles or tractor trailers, since your gonna need an endorsement on your liscense anyway to haul that goosneck loaded to the brim with C+D. hmmm... what else... the yardage marked on the side or your truck/trailer/little red wagon IS NOT the yardage you will be paid for. expect to loose a minimum of 5, but more likely 10-15, even 20 percent upon inspection at the dumps. the inspectors are a-holes, and unless you pay them (yup) you will not get full yardage. Also, when we were running, there were almost 1000 trucks all competing to dump at only 2 sites, though 11 were available. the two that were open were the mayor's buddie's dumps, so they got the contracts... the dumps are so overflowing that you MIGHT be able to run from about 7 am to 11 am until they fill up, and you twiddle your thumbs and loose money for the rest of the day. As far as the grapple loader trucks, Deerfield beack fired all those guys because they are slow at picking loads, leave debris behind, and most couldnt dump, so they clogged up the dump sites while they picked thier loads back out onto the dump site... not an adequate truck for the job. Go atleast triaxles, with tractors as well, and load with an excavator with a thumb, and have a cleanup crew with wheel loaders and skidsteers following to scoop up everything your gonna miss with the excavator. Also, dont be fooled that this is easy money, its not, its blood money. We had 12 tractors, 6 triaxles, 2 excavators, 4 bobcats, 2 wheel loaders, 2 versahandlers, a million pickups, 2 service trucks, trailers, and 4 dozen men.... we did one sector (10x10 block area) every 36 hours... and still had trouble making any real money. Other guys were taking WEEKS to do one sector... They got fired. also, your gonna havta close down roads, so have that equipment and personnel too. Its alot to get into out of the blue... thought you should know my experiences with it. Remember, there are only FOUR prime contractors for debris removal for all of the southeast... everyone else is a sub, no matter what they tell you. all those subs are literally pulling dollars out of your pockets. However, see if you can find a good deal where all the numbers add up, and then go bust your a$$. good luck.

PS- I havent learned a damned thing, im going back down to Mississippi the end of this month... what have I gotten myself into...?


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## BlackenedTimber (Jan 10, 2006)

oh, a couple more things... On becoming a contractor, good luck. First, you must get registered with the USGOV Central Contractor Registration, with actually, first requires that you get registered with Dun and Bradstreet, and acquire a DUNS number, that is used to identify your company with the USGOV. Next, you have to get registered with the Departmen of Homeland Defense, as they now control FEMA. Once you have DHS, then you go to FEMA, and get registered with them. Also, hit up DOD and the Army Corpsof Engineers. All the while you must be providing these people with massive information about your company, and you had better hope that all your info checks out. Oh, insurance and bonding are a major thing. MAJOR. now, you have the ability of getting a Contract, but no guarantee. Now you have to bid through several different procurement avenues, including opened and closed bids and fedbizopps.com, as well as several others. its not so glamourous.

now as for treeman's statement about the goosnecks and the tenwheelers, i saw several 35 yarders being pulled by f350s, the trailers themselves were probably only 17-20 yds, but they had enough wood bolted to em to raise home depot's stock significantly.

besides, the guys with those trailers were sloppy and slow. I would say shoot for efficient and proficient, and go for real trucks with real trailers. Its they only way your gonna make any substantial money. oh yeh, upyour insurance if you even want to be considered forone of those contracts.


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## PTS (Jan 10, 2006)

when we were down at Rita and Katrina the haulers were getting $9 to load and haul and $3-4 to just haul. But don't get discouraged. Get to the top. The closer you are to the main contractor the more you make. Fema pays something like $30 a yard to the main contractor, they sub out to a select number of Sub Contractors who get say $25 and those sub out to thier individual favorite contractors who get something like $20 and then those seemed to be the "head contractors" who locally in areas set up the work. They had more labor involved because thier people are monitoring the dumping sites, "weigh ins" where they measure you for yardage before you start hauling, and they are the ones responsible to make sure everything has been picked up. Those guy will sub out to you and me for the $9 to load your own and $3-4 to just haul and I heard as much as $6-7 to just haul but wouldn't count on it. This is just my personal observations. 

My advise, fill your nose with vicks vapor rub and start kissing a$$. There is more than one way to get to the top and it isn't always with a rope.


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## 1984 Noob (Jan 10, 2006)

i know the f350/8x6x20 double axel dually combo isn't efficient, but i'm just a kid i turne 21 less than 2 weeks ago...i don't have the real money to buy a big truck like that, i know they are economically sound and all but i can't handle getting an excavator/lowboy/cdl all that stuff while going to school.

but i can make about 10-20k before the next storm season, and with that i can get a business loan to buy the slower, sloppier f350/goose combo (x2 or 3)

of course i'd have a loader on site, my buddy has a t-190, but i'd probably just rent one.

would it be worth it to attempt to do this? and did you see any independant guys that just had one f-350/trailer that could hold their own and survive in the sub conditions.

and how much of a cut do the guys at the dumpsite typically get in order to maintain a decent yrdage #



i've seen the semi/excavator/frontendloader/skid work while i was in slidell....they can REALLY move ???? quick...


but is it even close to being viable for me to make any kind of money with a gooseneck dump?


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## PTS (Jan 10, 2006)

I would also check on the regs of Debries Hauling. After the mess down in Katrina with guys running around with some of the most rediculous units trying to haul debris. Many Sub Contrator put their feet down and established regulations as to the kind of units that were exceptable. Some required a dumping unit, others didn't care whether it dumped or not because they unloaded at the dump site with a grapple but they required it be larger than .... yards in hauling space which a lot of the dump tailers didn't match. So just check into it before you run off and buy a bunch of stuff. Don't forget about the lodging, fuel and food costs that go with hurricane work, added insurance sometimes, some required flagman and signage. 

I don't want this to sound like a discouragement, just don't want to see you caught with your pants down.


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## PTS (Jan 10, 2006)

If you are going to load your own you will need a grapple truck and a skid loader. You will not keep up if you have to keep moving your grapple truck with the pile that is as long as the block. The crews that seemed to have their stuff together are the ones that used skids to bring the debries to the grapple. Saved a lot of time but yet more equipment. And the skid has to have a grapple.


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## BlackenedTimber (Jan 10, 2006)

yo 1984,

just so that we are on the same page, I just turned 22 last november. As far as getting the trailers.... I would say definately use the money to get a few money-making rigs than a bunch or inneficient liabilities. As far as drivers, you will find a bunch down there, so you personally wont need a cdl , you can wait until you have the time (which i suggest getting anyway, why pay someone to do what you can do yourself) Also, PTS is absolutely right about lodging... there were times we were forced tocheck out of oneplace in the morning, and couldnt find a place to sleep until much later that night... it was quite a b!tch trying to find addequate lodging, and parking, all or our assets. I guess what I am trying to say is, dont rush into this, or anything for that matter... My father used to have a plaque on his wall that said "if you can't find the time to do it right, when will you find the time to do it over?" I took that to heart.


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## PTS (Jan 11, 2006)

My lodging solution was finding a pull type camper that sleeps 9, 7 comfortably and then it was just a matter of where do you pull over. It was easier to find a place to park it right after the hurricane and as businesses started opening up it became harder, but if you make friends with a business and help them out or pay them a little something, they will let you park behind the store where no one sees you and it is a great place to pull and hide equipment for the over night. Also lots of Locks and chains on everything.


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## PTS (Jan 11, 2006)

I would also recommend an enclosed trailer. It is a great storage place that is lockable. If it is big enough set it up like your kitchen, so you don't have to worry about cooking in the camper. Also plan on not having a place to dump the camper so take a wooden box, cut a whole, screw on a toilet seat, make it big enough to put a milk crate under it with a garbage sack. Use it take the toilet off, tie up your sack and put it in the near by dumpster. Dumpsters generally are fenced in so it will provide you privacy and oddly enough there is probably a water spicket on the back side of the building that is by the dumpster so run a water hose and a sprinkler type nozzle and hang it on the inside of the dumpster fence and you now have a shower and bath room. No stinky camper and no worries about dumping it. After about a month or two following the hurricane you should be able to get into a campgrounds, but we found that either, fema, insurance or utilities have them all rapped up for the first month or two.


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## LightningLoader (Jan 11, 2006)

*get a Rear Steer*



PTS said:


> If you are going to load your own you will need a grapple truck and a skid loader. You will not keep up if you have to keep moving your grapple truck with the pile that is as long as the block. The crews that seemed to have their stuff together are the ones that used skids to bring the debries to the grapple. Saved a lot of time but yet more equipment. And the skid has to have a grapple.



You don't have to trouble with getting into the truck cab to move your grapple, or even use outriggers if you're using the right system. 

All of you guys that are thinking about being storm chasers and don't want to be the guy on the bottom that get's $4.00/yd for being loaded into, you should be the one loading onto other people's trucks. I know someone that has a Rear Steer in Louisiana and he just lets whoever line up in front of him and he loads them up and gets paid $4000 a day while sitting in the Airconditioned cab. 

Have no Idea what a Rear Steer is?
Check out the video here:
http://www.petersenind.com/video_rs.html


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## bottlefed89 (Jan 11, 2006)

That looks fun...


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## PTS (Jan 11, 2006)

I agree that loading only would be the best.... It's like anything though if you are in the right place at the right time you can sign it. 

IMO if you can afford it, be versatile. If you have everything that you need to do your own you could get in and get started maybe at a lower rate, and then work in loading other haulers as well as your own. Then you double dip in a since.


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## NADR (Jan 11, 2006)

I have a fema contract for debris removal in Mississippi and need a tree climber with a crew. Pay is great! Housing is provided (a cabin at a campground) There is plenty of work for a 2 or 3 man crew. The more you cut, the more you make. Call me at 727-798-3109 if you're interested.
Rob Nolan


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## LightningLoader (Jan 12, 2006)

bottlefed89 said:


> That looks fun...


It is fun. Does about 15 mph backwards, and you get to ride in the AC away from the mosquitos. Everybody is always amazed by the Rear Steer. The guy that's storm chasing with it says when he checks in with FEMA in the morning people just crowd around and stare at it and even take pictures. 

Anyway, I checked back on the guy that has this Rear Steer that's a FEMA contractor in LA. He he was averaging about 1,000 yds a day of regular debris. That's $4000 in one day. (Does 600 yds on days that he's just picking up C&D material like destroyed buildings) Said he only uses about 1/2 a tank of diesel a day too, which sounds like nothing to me. 

True though that not everyone can afford one of these, and not everyone can start out at the top. Listen to the more practical advise here, then if you find you can put up with being a storm chaser for a living, then you need to seriously think about saving for a Rear Steer.


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## BlackenedTimber (Jan 12, 2006)

hey lightning loader, did he ever come close to tipping that thing over? I watched the video, and it looks like she can get a little loose some times... Also, what the suspension like on his truck... I bet that thing does a number on it. If I keep sending myself south (i keep telling myself not to go, but I end up doing it anyway...) I might have to get my hands on one of those.


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## LightningLoader (Jan 12, 2006)

The rear steer comes with suspension locks that you switch on when you get into the operator's cab, so that it doesn't toss you around too much and doesn't damage the truck. Also has a huge counterbalance plate made of 4" steel plate under the operator cab to help make it more stable. The part of the truck that seems to take it the hardest is the front steering assemly, which is one of those things that you just check out every once and a while and make sure it looks ok.

These things have been tested hard over the last 10 years in big cities like Miami, Houston, Coral Gables, Hollywood, Corpus Christi...so not a new concept, just new to tree guys. I think Orangetown NY (which is in Orangeburg) has a couple of them. Don't know if that's close to you?


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## BlackenedTimber (Jan 13, 2006)

Actually, I had band practice last nite in Orangetown...
I mentioned those things to a buddy of mine, who told me that he knows a local guy with one... maybe I can subcontract him, or just by the thing from him. Who knows, certainly not I.


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## LightningLoader (Jan 16, 2006)

*Local guy with Rear Steer?*

I'd be suprised if a local guy ended up with a rear steer, but maybe the city sold their 2000 model when they bought the new one? If I hear of any going up for auction or anything, I'll make sure to post it on here in case you're interested. Seems to me that city of houston and some of the cities around south florida should be ready to start replacing their rear steers soon, so I'll keep an eye out.


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## jhgilliland (Jan 25, 2006)

*That loader is sweet!*

Lightning Loader - What does petersen Ind. Get for a rear steer setup providing that the buyer supplys the chassis to mount it on. What do the used ones go for. My father does disaster cleanup, and i was curious. Thanks. James


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## LightningLoader (Jan 25, 2006)

You can't supply your own chassis because of all of the programming that goes on with the engine. We always mount them on custom Internationals. I can't give you a price for a new one in this forum, but I can tell you that we sold our last demo for about $95,000. 

We can't seem to get anyone to trade one of their oldies in for us to resell, so can't help you much with finding a used one. As far as I know, in the 8 years that these have been on the market, not even the oldest ones have been replaced yet. Speaks well of the equipment that they even want to keep the old ones, but doesn't help you guys that are looking for used ones. 

If you still want a price call Petersen direct and get one over the phone. Mention that you are a tree care person and you can be quoted the factory direct price.


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## jhgilliland (Jan 25, 2006)

I understand not being able to quote a price on the forum. All things considered i dont think that 95 is that high considering the fact of what your getting. The more important part is being able to secure a long term contract with fema. Lets face it, there are hurricanes every year. Not to say they are of the same magnitude, but there is still cleanup to be done. I would prefer to find a used one, but that seems like a slim possibility. Anyway, thanks again for the idea on pricing. I may have to contact Petersen Ind. soon. James


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## spike-columbia (Jan 25, 2006)

*Rear Steer*

I have inquired about rear steer's. However I'm like you I have not been able to secure a contract (well at least one from a reputable contractor, before I fork over 95-125K).

Anyone have any ideas?


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## LightningLoader (Jan 26, 2006)

jhgilliland said:


> I understand not being able to quote a price on the forum. All things considered i dont think that 95 is that high considering the fact of what your getting. The more important part is being able to secure a long term contract with fema. Lets face it, there are hurricanes every year. Not to say they are of the same magnitude, but there is still cleanup to be done. I would prefer to find a used one, but that seems like a slim possibility. Anyway, thanks again for the idea on pricing. I may have to contact Petersen Ind. soon. James



I personally think that 95 is a great price, considering that it 's not much more than a normal grapple truck, and it can load a lot more. Like I say, I have my antennas up for a used rear steer, and I'll make sure and post a note on the forum here if something comes up. If you want to order a new rear steer, then you need to start thinking about it now, because it will take time to get a chassis and build and install the loader, waiting for the hurricanes to come makes you too late. And we all know that they're coming... (that's my worried look because I live in FL)


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