# Stump Grinders, Pro's and Con's



## Ozarkie01 (Feb 4, 2009)

O.K. Guys,

Here's a post you haven't heard since........yesterday! The recent ice storm that hit the central part of the U.S. has given me good reason to get into the stump business. I know the economy is hurting but I'm an optimist and think things will turn around within a year. The area has been devastated and unfortunately a lot of people are going to need stump grinding. My budget is $20k to get started and I was wanting to get some professional opinions on what brand and model stump grinder to start out with. I'm leaning toward smaller units (36" width), self propelled. I've got a 1/2 ton pickup to pull it with. Any suggestions?


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## lxt (Feb 4, 2009)

LOL....you dont think others who already own stump machines arent prepared for what you think you can capitalize on?

you will spend money for something many others already have!!, they will cut your price...every time!! you will be left with work no one wants....3ft diameter locust stumps!!!!

Yep...... another statistic who will be selling his used/used machine real cheap!!


why do newbees always want to start out with......"a bucket truck" a "Stumper" or  the ever so popular lawn/landscape/roofer/deck builder...I can do it all & suck at doing it all business??? but hey.....I need $$$ & dont care if I screw the home owner or future Biz by not having insurance or proper insurance, so what if I do shoddy work!! just till the economy comes back around!!


LXT...................can you guys tell I hate newbee wanna start a business types?


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## arborworks1 (Feb 4, 2009)

Why do you bash people for trying to get ahead. He might already have a business and insurance to cover. 

You know nothing about this guy and you bash the #### out of him. 

I was thinking about the same thing(Stumps). Will you give me a hard time to. 

Wait before you do I carry insurance, Am an accomplished climbing arborist and I have have run a business longer than I care to remember. That being said.

Stumps will be a last resort for most folks right now. Money is tight and that stump is not doing a damn thing. The tree through the roof or hanging over the parking area, or little timmys playzone is the importance. Skilled fallers and experienced climbers will excel at the conditions. Less experienced treemen need to proceed with caution, ice does funny things to trees and reactions will be instant.


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## tomtrees58 (Feb 4, 2009)

stumps here on L I are $3.00 and inch you wood not make it here tom trees:jawdrop:


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## TDunk (Feb 4, 2009)

If your doing stumps as a side job for extra money, then ok. If your going to try and make a living on just doing stumps, i'd think twice, and real long. Around hear stumps go for about $2.50 and inch. You'd have to do ALOT of stumps everyday to put food on the table. Personally, i think everyone should try and "own and operate" a business once in there life. It puts a whole new perspective on things. Good luck to ya.


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## Slvrmple72 (Feb 4, 2009)

Really bad timing to consider getting into the stump grinding biz. Seriously! You would be better off selling firewood.


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## ozzy42 (Feb 4, 2009)

TDunk said:


> If your doing stumps as a side job for extra money, then ok. If your going to try and make a living on just doing stumps, i'd think twice, and real long. Around hear stumps go for about $2.50 and inch. You'd have to do ALOT of stumps everyday to put food on the table. Personally, i think everyone should try and "own and operate" a business once in there life. It puts a whole new perspective on things. Good luck to ya.


I agree. stump money is nice ,but to try to make a living from stumps alone is not going to work in todays ecomomy IMHO.
It is good side money though .
I wouldnt go in the hole for a 20k machine right now.
You could probably pick up a decent used one for 5or6k and maybe make a good chunk of it back from the storm damage.
Think about it this way,stumps are for the most part just an eye sore.
Large broken limbs,and fallen trees are hazards that must be dealt with right away when in residential areas.Stumps are not.Again they are mostly an eye sore,and therefore not high on priority list of things to do in hard times.
As far as being a newbie,everybody has to start some where.

Good luck,stay safe
Good luck,and stay safe.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 5, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> Really bad timing to consider getting into the stump grinding biz. Seriously! You would be better off selling firewood.





arborworks1 said:


> Why do you bash people for trying to get ahead. He might already have a business and insurance to cover.
> 
> You know nothing about this guy and you bash the #### out of him.
> 
> ...





ozzy42 said:


> I agree. stump money is nice ,but to try to make a living from stumps alone is not going to work in todays ecomomy IMHO.
> It is good side money though .
> I wouldnt go in the hole for a 20k machine right now.
> You could probably pick up a decent used one for 5or6k and maybe make a good chunk of it back from the storm damage.
> ...





lxt said:


> LOL....you dont think others who already own stump machines arent prepared for what you think you can capitalize on?
> 
> you will spend money for something many others already have!!, they will cut your price...every time!! you will be left with work no one wants....3ft diameter locust stumps!!!!
> 
> ...



I understand your frustration LXT, I knew I would get a post like yours just didn't think it would be the 1st one! Let me clarify a little. I'm helping my son out here who is about to be laid off (factory work). He's 27 and has done a lot of logging and is great with a chain saw. We live in an area of affluent retirees whose only hobbies are keeping their yards and property nice. There's one stump operator in the area, I know because he did a lot of work on my place for me and it took 3 weeks to get him to come out. This was a year ago! Now, the area is decimated. He knows enough about felling trees to know he doesn't want any part of it. Too dangerous and insurance too high. We are going to be licensed and insured for stump grinding and are hoping it will supplement his income. We're considering a new Carlton 4012 because of the 3 year warranty and there is a dealer/service center in the area. If things don't go as planned we're hoping that the warranty will be a good selling point to the next buyer. Any opinions on the Carlton 4012?


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 5, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> Why do you bash people for trying to get ahead. He might already have a business and insurance to cover.
> 
> You know nothing about this guy and you bash the #### out of him.
> 
> ...



Thanks Arborworks1 but I can handle a little bashing, knew it was coming. I've lost many pine trees to this storm myself and my insurance covers $1000 for debris clean-up. Not enough to cover my damages but my question is won't those insured be more apt to have stumps removed from their properties if they have the insurance to cover it? There's going to be a lot of insurance claims for this kind of work. I'm I wrong here?


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 5, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I agree. stump money is nice ,but to try to make a living from stumps alone is not going to work in todays ecomomy IMHO.
> It is good side money though .
> I wouldnt go in the hole for a 20k machine right now.
> You could probably pick up a decent used one for 5or6k and maybe make a good chunk of it back from the storm damage.
> ...



The only reason I was considering a new one was because I figured I'd either be spending the money on repairs to a beat up rental unit or spending the money on some equipment that hopefully won't require a lot of repair work. I don't know a lot about stump grinders but I can imagine the abuse they take! You've got a good point though and we will certainly have to weigh both options. If you were just starting out wold you opt for the Carlton 4012 or the Vermeer SC 252 or 352? Thanks for your advice.


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## TDunk (Feb 5, 2009)

Just stay away from the Duetz Diesel, I guess there's a problem with them. I have a Vermeer and has been a pretty good machine, can't say for the Carlton.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 5, 2009)

TDunk said:


> Just stay away from the Duetz Diesel, I guess there's a problem with them. I have a Vermeer and has been a pretty good machine, can't say for the Carlton.



Thanks TDunk, that's the kind of info I need!


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## fishercat (Feb 5, 2009)

*nothing wrong with deutz diesels.*

got one on our rayco.never had a problem with it in 1000 hours.

i would look at Rayco as well.Carlton is a nice machine ut that main belt is pricey and you can't adjust it correctly without the proper tool.

the Rayco hydro drive is nice.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 5, 2009)

fishercat said:


> got one on our rayco.never had a problem with it in 1000 hours.
> 
> i would look at Rayco as well.Carlton is a nice machine ut that main belt is pricey and you can't adjust it correctly without the proper tool.
> 
> the Rayco hydro drive is nice.



Thanks, I like Rayco machines but don't think there is a service center nearby. The Carlton 4012 I'm thinking about getting has the Kubota engine on it. Great tractors but not sure about there small engines.


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## TDunk (Feb 5, 2009)

The Kubota engines are good. And i should rephrase what i said about the Duetz Diesel. They are a good engine, BUT the engine will starve for oil if used over a 25% grade. Witch isn't very much, and the warrenty is void. There's a thread on the Duetz diesel in the Large Equipment forum. Might be worth looking into.


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## ozzy42 (Feb 5, 2009)

Ozarkie01 said:


> The only reason I was considering a new one was because I figured I'd either be spending the money on repairs to a beat up rental unit or spending the money on some equipment that hopefully won't require a lot of repair work. I don't know a lot about stump grinders but I can imagine the abuse they take! You've got a good point though and we will certainly have to weigh both options. If you were just starting out wold you opt for the Carlton 4012 or the Vermeer SC 252 or 352? Thanks for your advice.


I understand you not wanting to do a lot of repairs,but you will have to work on them ,new or used. You are correct to assume they get the crap beat out of them,and a lot of the things that require high maintenance are not covered by warranty;bearings,teeth,belts,filters,and fluid changes.
I would not buy from a rental place however.Too much abuse by HOs,and weekend warriors who dont know how to use them correctly.
As far as wich grinder,Ilike my lil sc252 w/auto sweep.They are a bit slow,but I love the portability of it,and the ease of use,and pretty easy to work on .
Think you can get one w/auto sweep,dual wheels,and 27hp kohlear for apr 
13k.I have mine set up with a plow on the front.Have a pic of it on another thread.Pretty easy to make.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 5, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I understand you not wanting to do a lot of repairs,but you will have to work on them ,new or used. You are correct to assume they get the crap beat out of them,and a lot of the things that require high maintenance are not covered by warranty;bearings,teeth,belts,filters,and fluid changes.
> I would not buy from a rental place however.Too much abuse by HOs,and weekend warriors who dont know how to use them correctly.
> As far as wich grinder,Ilike my lil sc252 w/auto sweep.They are a bit slow,but I love the portability of it,and the ease of use,and pretty easy to work on .
> Think you can get one w/auto sweep,dual wheels,and 27hp kohlear for apr
> 13k.I have mine set up with a plow on the front.Have a pic of it on another thread.Pretty easy to make.



Hi Ozzy, thanks for your comments. My son and I have taken your 1st post to heart and have decided to go with a good used machine. Looking at a Carlton 4012 with less than 150 hrs. on it and it's 1/3 the price of the new one we were looking at. Granted it's got the 27 hp Kohler instead of a Kubota diesel but i figure that engine has to be pretty good since most of the smaller machines have them. Besides i've been running an 18hp Kohler on my lawn mower for years and it's never given me any trouble. Is stability a problem on the SC 252 with that 1 wheel in the back? Seems like the 252 is one of the more popular machines out there.


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## newb (Feb 5, 2009)

Ive got the Bandit. I have the 30(hp) Cat Diesel and wireless remote. I wouldnt by a grinder without either. The machine and motor take quite a beating, and the wireless is priceless. Pete


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## ozzy42 (Feb 5, 2009)

Ozarkie01 said:


> Hi Ozzy, thanks for your comments. My son and I have taken your 1st post to heart and have decided to go with a good used machine. Looking at a Carlton 4012 with less than 150 hrs. on it and it's 1/3 the price of the new one we were looking at. Granted it's got the 27 hp Kohler instead of a Kubota diesel but i figure that engine has to be pretty good since most of the smaller machines have them. Besides i've been running an 18hp Kohler on my lawn mower for years and it's never given me any trouble. Is stability a problem on the SC 252 with that 1 wheel in the back? Seems like the 252 is one of the more popular machines out there.


Yes they can be unstable with the single rear wheels,but is very good with the duals on.They come off,and it goes back to single wheels in 4-5min with 3/8 ratchet,and 9/16 socket if you must have the narrower width to get it thru tight spot.
Is that C 4012 like the vermeer252?If so it should be a good mach. for you.

Hard to beat low hour mach.if you get it at a decent price as grinders are just like anything else you buy,lose value the minute you buy it .May as well let somebody else take the hit for it.

Good luck with whatever one you go with.


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## ozzy42 (Feb 5, 2009)

Let us know what you get ozarkie.
some pics maybe?


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## lxt (Feb 5, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> Why do you bash people for trying to get ahead. He might already have a business and insurance to cover.
> 
> You know nothing about this guy and you bash the #### out of him.
> 
> ...




I did not bash him personally!! I bashed newbees....I know what he tells us on here & guess what? he is a newbee!!

You were thinking about stumps too!!! good for you & might be good as a supplement to what you currently do in tree work, most want to do stumps cause they can keep their Azz on the ground & play with hydraulic sticks all day!!

Sorry, but for those of you who are a weekend fire wood cudder & work at the car dealership 9-5 & think!!!!! Im gonna start a tree biz or I can run a stumper(less effort) then you are idiots!!

and this arborworks is the problem!!! people with no exp. getting insurance to go out & do work they`ve never been (professionally) trained for, you think thats good? I think thats why my rates go up every year, I think thats why the TCIA mag shows the serious injury/fatality stats, I think thats why Home owners are bitter toward legitimate contractors cause the untrained newbee doesnt know what the hell he`s doing.

Any body who comes here and asks about "how do I bid this", "is this a good time", "whats a good saw" etc....etc... has no business running a Tree care business or susidiary business to tree care!!!

everyone wants to make the big bucks & many dont know what they`re doing which gives the rest of us the "black Eye" M.D.Vaden was talking about

And yes I dislike you newbee types....you dont know how to bid, you dont do quality work & when the going gets tuff you just enter someone elses trade to screw it up!!!


LXT.................


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 6, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> Let us know what you get ozarkie.
> some pics maybe?



I bid on and won the Carlton 4012 w/27 hp Kohler that I was talking about earlier. 2006 model with 121 hrs, sandvik cutter wheel, fully hydraulic. Looks brand new and was never a rental unit. The owner (tree service biz) picked it up as a bank repo but biz is slow in his area now so he's letting it go. I got it for $8k which I believe was a fair price for this machine. I'm sure some will say yes and more will say no but it fit my budget and needs for now.

If things don't work out I figure I can always get a good offer for it from lxt!


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## ozzy42 (Feb 6, 2009)

I just looked up your model on their web page.I was not real familiar with that model. It seems to be a decent mach.Does it have hydralic steering,and the dual wheel kit?


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## ozarktreeman (Feb 6, 2009)

lxt said:


> LOL....you dont think others who already own stump machines arent prepared for what you think you can capitalize on?
> 
> you will spend money for something many others already have!!, they will cut your price...every time!! you will be left with work no one wants....3ft diameter locust stumps!!!!
> 
> ...







:agree2: ehhh,little harsh but I kinda agree with you.Have my share of those here.


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## ozarktreeman (Feb 6, 2009)

lxt said:


> I did not bash him personally!! I bashed newbees....I know what he tells us on here & guess what? he is a newbee!!
> 
> You were thinking about stumps too!!! good for you & might be good as a supplement to what you currently do in tree work, most want to do stumps cause they can keep their Azz on the ground & play with hydraulic sticks all day!!
> 
> ...










:agree2:
not kizzin azz!but 2fer2!


and saves me alot of hunt and peckin.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 7, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I just looked up your model on their web page.I was not real familiar with that model. It seems to be a decent mach.Does it have hydralic steering,and the dual wheel kit?


Yes, it's got both so it should be pretty easy to get around the tight spots.


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## fishercat (Feb 7, 2009)

*i think you read too much.*



lxt said:


> I did not bash him personally!! I bashed newbees....I know what he tells us on here & guess what? he is a newbee!!
> 
> You were thinking about stumps too!!! good for you & might be good as a supplement to what you currently do in tree work, most want to do stumps cause they can keep their Azz on the ground & play with hydraulic sticks all day!!
> 
> ...



try and relax.this is supposed to be a free country.don't get the damn government into screwing things up anymore than they already are.

stump grinding isn't rocket science and anyone with an IQ higher than a cops can do it.i'd rather more folks did it.i hate doing it and sub it out whenever i can.we all have to start somewhere and good luck trying to find someone to train you.i offered to pay top dollar for climbing lessons and no one would bother.i learned it myself and never looked back.


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## md_tree_dood (Feb 7, 2009)

A few things for you to consider if you want to get into the business from my experience, and I'm not going to tell you NOT to do it.

1) There is only one guy in our area who specializes in stumps, we suggest him to clients when the stump is in a really tough spot to get to, ie, down steps, on top of a retaining wall. If you're going to specialize in stumps be willing to do the jobs that tree companies don't want to get involved in.

2) Get an account with the utility operation in your area, you'll run into gas lines, electrical lines, tel-comm lines, etc, and if you have an account they'll get to your request alot sooner than if you don't have a contractor account.

3) I'm not a fan of Carltons. I used to use one and had alot of problems with the drive belt although the one I used didn't have the ability to sense engine rpm and disengage the clutch whenever heavy strain was put on the cutter wheel. Most likely for the price you're looking to spend, your machine won't have this feature either. I also had problems with the remote and had alot of problems with cold starting in the winter. The vermeer I use now, doesn't have these issues. BTW, the drive belts were extremely expensive if you blow one out being too aggressive when grinding a stump.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 7, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> A few things for you to consider if you want to get into the business from my experience, and I'm not going to tell you NOT to do it.
> 
> 1) There is only one guy in our area who specializes in stumps, we suggest him to clients when the stump is in a really tough spot to get to, ie, down steps, on top of a retaining wall. If you're going to specialize in stumps be willing to do the jobs that tree companies don't want to get involved in.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up on the drive belt, will be taking it nice and easy during the learning curve. Which model Vermeer are you using?


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 8, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> A few things for you to consider if you want to get into the business from my experience, and I'm not going to tell you NOT to do it.
> 
> 1) There is only one guy in our area who specializes in stumps, we suggest him to clients when the stump is in a really tough spot to get to, ie, down steps, on top of a retaining wall. If you're going to specialize in stumps be willing to do the jobs that tree companies don't want to get involved in.
> 
> ...


Great advice on hooking up with a utility co. in the area. They are snowed under right now because of the ice storm! My own power line has been down for 2 weeks and probably stay that way for another 2 weeks what they say. Trees down everywhere!


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## Gunsmoke (Feb 8, 2009)

I currently own a 7015 Carlton ( 60 hp Duetz, fits thru 36" gate, wireless)and love the machine. It's the second Carlton I've owned and have had NO PROBLEM w/ either. I use to sell Bandits and while I sold them I owned a Carlton. Rayco's headquarters are 30 miles from my house and I wouldn't own one.

As far as being a newbee, the rest of these guys forget they also were new @ one time. My first biz was owning a semi then I moved on to stumps. I was new @ both and did well w/ both. Sold the truck so I could be home more. I have always kept my prices med. to high and I was busy till Christmas this year. I never bid by the inch... works better to bid by the job/hr. but this takes time to learn. Buy with in your means... remember; pay cash for your machine & good luck!


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## pmoudy (Feb 9, 2009)

Hey where are you at sounds like anound Mtn. Home if you are there are more stump grinders than you think and you will not make just grinding stumps in this area not trying to bash just telling like it is. It's tough on just grinding unless you can get hooked up with a lot of tree guys.


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 9, 2009)

pmoudy said:


> Hey where are you at sounds like anound Mtn. Home if you are there are more stump grinders than you think and you will not make just grinding stumps in this area not trying to bash just telling like it is. It's tough on just grinding unless you can get hooked up with a lot of tree guys.


Yeah, we're in the Mt. Home area. Didn't think there were that many grinders in that area. Took us a long time to get anyone to answer my calls when I needed some stumps removed about a year ago. Aside from that, in this economy competition is going to be fierce, whatever you decide to get into. Having good contacts, good advertising, good equipment and sufficient funding will get us started. A good attitude and work ethic will hopefully keeps things going. Wish us luck! Of course, unless your in the grinding business too! Maybe see you around?


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## fishercat (Feb 9, 2009)

*we have a Rayco Super RG50*

nothing but teeth,grease,filters and fluid in 1000 hours.

that belt on the Carlton is like $600 plus labor to adjust it.that's nuts.i still like them,don't get me wrong.they make a nice machine.i think i will try the Grind Zero next.


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## pmoudy (Feb 9, 2009)

.Hey i sent you a pm


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## bombdude (Feb 11, 2009)

Hope you the best of luck Ozarkie. I was in your shoes 2 years ago. Not prompted by an act of nature, but was looking for a supplement biz to transition into retirement. I'm one of those low IQ cops (thank you Mr. Fishercat). 

Started from scratch, borrowed money, (avoiding that in the future) bought a machine & took off. I have no regrets. I live in a highly saturated area. Lotta beer money grinders around here & most tree services have their own machine, or have a grinder set up as a sub. But a couple have picked me up b/c of my backyard machine, a 352. Most of my business is from word of mouth. I run ads in a couple of local papers. They pay for themselves, not much more. Considerin' a radio spot, but that's a big jump.

A couple things you mentioned & that I've learned: 
My liability insurance is in the same classification as tree service, so it's still expensive. Since I'm a one man show, I save on workman's comp, tho'. 

Also, I've heard that most insurance doesn't pay for the stump grinding as it's considered cosmetic. I leave them an invoice just in case.

Good work ethic is key. Leave it better than you found it. I carry a big blower & clean up my mess. If the stump is in a flower bed, I'll rake & blow the chips into a neat pile within the flower bed just so it "looks better". I'll rake the pile into a nicer looking mound in the yard. I get a lot of comments on this. And always tell them that you'll come back & fix a missed spot if they find it after removing the shavings. 

Professionalism is also important. I wear nice work attire, recently adding my logo to my work shirts. I don't meet customers unshaven, lookin' sloppy, etc.
I don't want them to feel uncomfortable having me at their home. 

Don't get discouraged. My first bid, the customer reacted like I was crazy. 3 big stumps (one 11' dia), concrete & wire grown into them, etc. I bid $700. He said, "I can get it done for $150." I didn't bite. Just thanked him & went on, feelin' kinda low. Next bid, got the job, & he actually paid me $50 over b/c he was happy with my work. 

I ain't making a killing, but so far I'm accomplishing what I've set out to do.
Good luck


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## Ozarkie01 (Feb 12, 2009)

bombdude said:


> Hope you the best of luck Ozarkie. I was in your shoes 2 years ago. Not prompted by an act of nature, but was looking for a supplement biz to transition into retirement. I'm one of those low IQ cops (thank you Mr. Fishercat).
> 
> Started from scratch, borrowed money, (avoiding that in the future) bought a machine & took off. I have no regrets. I live in a highly saturated area. Lotta beer money grinders around here & most tree services have their own machine, or have a grinder set up as a sub. But a couple have picked me up b/c of my backyard machine, a 352. Most of my business is from word of mouth. I run ads in a couple of local papers. They pay for themselves, not much more. Considerin' a radio spot, but that's a big jump.
> 
> ...


Bombdude, thanks for taking the time to write your encouraging post, it came at a good time! Seems that the naysayers are coming out of the woodwork (with few exceptions). We know this isn't going to be the answer to everything but it can help. My son, who'll be doing the hands on, is currently going through "lay-off syndrome" and having some down moments. With me being overseas at the moment it's hard for me to keep him focused and pumped up but we're on the phone all the time. He's a hard worker and takes a lot of pride in his work. Your post will certainly help keep him focused and I thank you for that. Between guiding on the river and grinding a few stumps here and there, he'll be o.k. Thanks again for the good advice and best of luck to you as well!


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