# Load development



## Genius. (Jun 2, 2012)

Are these some groups to be proud of for 300 yards? I'll keep working, but I think I have a good starting point. These are .5 gr increments of Varget pushing Hornady 75gr BTHP.


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## ShoerFast (Jun 2, 2012)

Not seeing the rest of the test loads. It looks like 28 1/2 , 29 and 29 1/2 would be your next spread?

This process is what I find works best for a solid place to start:

OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

Nicknamed the Chocolate ice-cream cone procedure.


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## Genius. (Jun 2, 2012)

ShoerFast said:


> Not seeing the rest of the test loads. It looks like 28 1/2 , 29 and 29 1/2 would be your next spread?
> 
> This process is what I find works best for a solid place to start:
> 
> ...



Nah, those numbers were just for reference. Not the grain amount. I think that was 24.5, 25, 25.5 of Varget, I need to check my record book yet.

Next ill start .1 grain increments. Usually I do 5 shot groups, these were loaded this winter, not sure why I did 10-15 at a time...

Oh well, any excuse to load and shoot.


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## Genius. (Jun 2, 2012)

Thanks Shoer, great read


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## ZeroJunk (Jun 2, 2012)

Looks pretty damn good to me. I basically hunt deer and elk and if my rifle does that at 300 yards I'm not going to change anything looking for another 1/2 inch or whatever. Also, unless it is dead calm the wind can be reponsible for some of the little spead that you have.

Now, if you are in to competition that is another ballgame.


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## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 2, 2012)

Are you shooting out of a bolt action or a semi (AR-15, likely).
I assume you are shooting off a rest?

If it is a bolt with a target barrel you can likely do better, if it is
an AR-15 consider your job done and be very happy with the 
results. You will do very well shooting any service rifle match.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jun 2, 2012)

Whatever you do, keep good notes during your load development. I record my data in a Midway Shooter's Notebook. 

In addition to the group size, its a good idea to keep track of your Mean Velocity, Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread on a ballistic chronograph. 

Above all, keep checking your pressures and back off on the powder when you reach maximum pressure or start observing muzzle blast.

Bob Hagel wrote a series of excellent articles in Handloader and Rifle magazines titled "How to Detect and Control Pressure". Every handloader should read them.
Wolfe Publishing Company

It always pays to be safe.


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## ShoerFast (Jun 2, 2012)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Whatever you do, keep good notes during your load development. I record my data in a Midway Shooter's Notebook.
> 
> In addition to the group size, its a good idea to keep track of your Mean Velocity, Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread on a ballistic chronograph.
> 
> ...



Good info!

It seems that finding that sweet-spot with charge weight and then creeping the bullet towards the rifleing-lands fine tuning accuracy does save a little time. A lot of time compared how I reload in my youth. Load a few / shoot a few seemed as scientific as it got.

My primary big-game rifle, a Savage 111E in 7-MMRM tells me when I am coming close. It's bolt handle lifts a little harder right about the same time I get a vertical deviation in group size. (and a slight frosted look on the firing pin crater)

Wish I could settle for the lower end of the manual specs, it just ain't in me. But I spend more time then most watching for extreme pressure signs.

Sticking with one brand and style of primer is one of my tricks. Consistent ignition is a lessor concern.

Sticking with one kind of primer gives me a measurable base for pressure signs. I don't want a magunim rifle with a round primer. Mags are built to flatten the primer some, but blue-spotting the firing pin indentation is way pushing it.

Keeping it safe, working to near max slowly, and backing it off a tad. Maintaining accuracy will hang some meat.


Edit: Don't want a round 'new looking' primer, pressure squares off the corners as the primer sets back on the bolt-face, (a good sing up to a point).


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## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 3, 2012)

ShoerFast said:


> My primary big-game rifle, a Savage 111E in 7-MMRM tells me when I am coming close. It's bolt handle lifts a little harder right about the same time I get a vertical deviation in group size. (and a slight frosted look on the firing pin crater)
> 
> Sticking with one kind of primer gives me a measurable base for pressure signs. I don't want a magunim rifle with a round primer. Mags are built to flatten the primer some, but blue-spotting the firing pin indentation is way pushing it.
> 
> ...



I have a Remington 700 chambered in 7mm RM. I was working up a load using the 
ladder development method. each set of rounds was 0.3 grains more then the next
IMR 4064 IIRC, I can look up the exact loading if your interested.

I stepped up one level in powder and whoa millie, (that even funnier that we have a 
horse named Millie. Bolt opend hard, and some of the nickel plate was removed of the 
head of the cartridge and the primer fell out. The case head was stretched out, needless
to say that was the end of the day for that exercise. I miked the case head when I 
got home and it was 2-3 thou oversized at the belt. Damn. I was still a full grain short 
published maximums. No damage to the rifle but definitely at the max for that load.

4064 is on the fast side for a 7mm RM.


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## dingeryote (Jun 3, 2012)

#28 looks good, and would be a good place to tinker with seating depth a bit to see if more can be gained or not.

The .5gr increment change affects exit timing about as much as .010 change in seating depth. 

If you are at Max OAL for reliable feeding, you're stuck though.

@ 300 wind will molest your data pretty bad, so verify at 100 and vice versa.
I have seen loads that shoot bug holes at 100 go to crap @200+ thanks to stabilizing late in flight, and good 300yd loads that look horrible up close. 

Getting to be consistent off the bags is a HUGE factor that will improve with time.

You didn't mention, but how long did you wait between shots? Single load or from the Mag.?
That Barrel shouldn't string much at all, but will heat up and open things up from pressure diff. caused by waiting with the next round in the chamber. Empty mag vs partial mag is another factor that influences harmonics as well on AR's.

Looks like MOA territory anyway ya cook it though.

What optic are you using? Got enough Magnification and resolution to hold sub MOA at that distance?

I hate it when the cross hair subtends 3MOA @300yds, and ya gotta hold the diamond point to take advantage of the rifle over the optic.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Genius. (Jun 3, 2012)

Out of a AR

It was a fairly heavy wind pushing those pills over too. So all things considered.

I loaded the mag and fired one shot after another. Each group got a clean bore and 2 rounds fired off target first.

Funny thing, I tried these loads before at 100 and they shot 1" groups too.

I forgot pics, but earlier I did some work with Barnes TTSX with three shot groups. As I worked up my charges I watched my groups tighten up. Got ti my last 3 (max) got 3 touching holes. (that was at 100 though) 

I don't have a chronograph, should I look inti one?

I borrowed a Hawk 6X24 scope for the work. Guy said I can have it for a case of beer. The magnification was nice for 300, but it lacked in clairaty. My 3X9 leupy is hard to aim at the same point that far back.

I was considering looking for a bolt gun, but I'm reconsidering. I might buy good glass for my AR first. Something like a Leupold Mark 4 or a Night Force.


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## Genius. (Jun 3, 2012)

I've beef reading great reviews on Vortex and SWFS's scopes.

What glass are you guys running?

If you guys were in my shoes what would you do?

Save and wait for a good rifle to come along for a good price, use the Hawk on it. Then save for good glass.

Or get good glass for my current rifle and save for a rifle?

I know in the end I'll be ending up with 2 pieces of good glass.



I wish I could get a deal like the deal I got on my ACOG:hmm3grin2orange:
I can always try though right:hmm3grin2orange: I guess it doesn't hurt to ask about a Trijicon scope...... (2 maybe:msp_unsure


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## Genius. (Jun 3, 2012)

While I love reloading, I HATE this job...


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## mdavlee (Jun 3, 2012)

I've been recommended the vortex pst by euro optic. They said its a good scope but not us optics good. For under $1k its was their top pick.


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## ShoerFast (Jun 3, 2012)

ShadeTreeWelder said:


> I have a Remington 700 chambered in 7mm RM. I was working up a load using the
> ladder development method. each set of rounds was 0.3 grains more then the next
> IMR 4064 IIRC, I can look up the exact loading if your interested.
> 
> ...



Glad your proof reading your post! 
IOWs here to tell the story eyes and all!

I tried to make H-1000 work in my 7RM and I just couldn't get it to pressure up. While really liking the 'Extreme' powders idea, Retumbo would have been going the other way.

H 4831sc is fantastic! Meters well, ramps up very well, and connects the dots, if you know what I mean?

Here is a somewhat self explaining string.
Hornaday SSTs 139gr and Retumbo. 

A quick glance shows 71 grains to be a fantastic place to start, or just go with it.

Comes to find out, Nolser Ballistic-tips on top H-4831sc will shoot inside a group of SSTs all day long, with far less sensitivity to the powder charge weight.






(the blue square thing is the cardboard from behind the target, I initially thought about measuring the group size. Their now recorded as 'touching')


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## Genius. (Jun 3, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I've been recommended the vortex pst by euro optic. They said its a good scope but not us optics good. For under $1k its was their top pick.



Yea, I've been reading great things about Vortex. 

Granted, I'm not about to go to Afghanistan with the thing, or run it through Scout Sniper school, but for 99% of civies I hear awesome stuff about Vortex, and SWFA's scopes.

But on the same note, Larue has a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T with their mount for the same price as other optic stores have for just the glass. (I love Larue mounts). Plus I am low on Dillo Dust.....


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## dingeryote (Jun 3, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> Yea, I've been reading great things about Vortex.
> 
> Granted, I'm not about to go to Afghanistan with the thing, or run it through Scout Sniper school, but for 99% of civies I hear awesome stuff about Vortex, and SWFA's scopes.
> 
> But on the same note, Larue has a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T with their mount for the same price as other optic stores have for just the glass. (I love Larue mounts). Plus I am low on Dillo Dust.....



There are no regrets with Leupie...ever. Vortex is racking up a heck of a following though,but I wonder where they will be in in 5 years.

Absolutely get yourself a chronograph. Once you own one and use it, you'll get your eyeballs opened big time.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Genius. (Jun 3, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> There are no regrets with Leupie...ever. Vortex is racking up a heck of a following though,but I wonder where they will be in in 5 years.
> 
> Absolutely get yourself a chronograph. Once you own one and use it, you'll get your eyeballs opened big time.
> 
> ...



What do you think/recommend dinger... 

Great glass right now, or wait for a deal on a bolt gun, then get good glass?


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## ShoerFast (Jun 3, 2012)

ShadeTreeWelder said:


> I have a Remington 700 chambered in 7mm RM. I was working up a load using the
> ladder development method. each set of rounds was 0.3 grains more then the next
> IMR 4064 IIRC, I can look up the exact loading if your interested.
> 
> ...



Here is a little trick if your loading for sasquactch in a belted magunim.

Every so often you will get a case that the bolt will just not feed well and bolt up easily . I get this problems a lot from range-brass.

Right above the belt the case will bulge sometimes, the full length sizer will not take it out.

Seems rare, but it has wrecked a lot of hunts when a case gets stuck. I cycle every brass before i go the next step.

There are dies marketed to resize bulgers , sort of pricey, and another way to fix it.






Get a tight one, measure it to establish your go ~ no-go.
Size up some lite duty paper, news print thickness would work. Grease the paper on both sides and wrap the bulge .







Start the brass into the FL die and run it through.






The die will take it from there, using the paper to gain the tighter dimension needed to keep you from scraping brass before its needed.









.


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## Genius. (Jun 4, 2012)

Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25x50mm LR/T M1 Illuminated TMR Reticle W/LaRue Tactical SPR Mount 67985 LT104-30 | LaRue Tactical

Leupold Mark 4 4.5-14x50mm LR/T M1 Illuminated TMR Reticle (67965) w/ LT104-30 | LaRue Tactical

Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T M3 67950 w/ LaRue Tactical LT104-30 | LaRue Tactical

Riflescope/Bushnell 3.5-21x50 FFP with Horus H59 Reticle | LaRue Tactical

Nighforce NXS 2.5 - 10X32, NP-R2 Reticle with Zero Stop and LT104-30 QD Mount | LaRue Tactical


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## ShoerFast (Jun 4, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> What do you think/recommend dinger...
> 
> Great glass right now, or wait for a deal on a bolt gun, then get good glass?



We all know guys with a safe full of safe-queens.

And we all know better then betting against a man with only one rifle!

I opt to go with the best quality/value over quality every time.

Once one firearm is set up the way it really performs best. Then is a god time to go the next rifle.

Best Glass I have is a Ziess Conquest. Fantastic value!

But it is the price of another rifle. And neither would be worth a dang.

Camera Land in New York is a place to shop, if your into online shopping.

Check out their Demo list from time to time.


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## Genius. (Jun 4, 2012)

Now that is a good idea Shoer, I'm going to have to remember that one.


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## Genius. (Jun 4, 2012)

ShoerFast said:


> We all know guys with a safe full of safe-queens.
> 
> And we all know better then betting against a man with only one rifle!
> 
> ...



I've been told (I think from Dinger) to spend as much on glass as your rifle.

I am really reconsidering my next big purchase. 

The more I think if it, the more I am thinking about going with glass.

How will a quality 14x compare to a cheap 24x?


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## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 4, 2012)

ShoerFast said:


> Here is a little trick if your loading for sasquactch in a belted magunim.
> 
> Every so often you will get a case that the bolt will just not feed well and bolt up easily . I get this problems a lot from range-brass.
> 
> Right above the belt the case will bulge sometimes, the full length sizer will not take it out.



Interesting trick, I did not have a case bulge, but the head measure on the belt was stretched.
Primer pocket was oversized and would not hold a new primer. Scary stuff. All my bolt action 
ammo is fire formed and neck sized.

I have loads worked up with 4831SC, 4064, and H1000 for the 7mm RM and .300 H&H and 
.300 Weatherby. I agree the H100 is a little iffy on the 7mm RM, but is very nice for the .300's

As far as glass I am very enamoured with Nikon these days good clarity, bright, tough and 
a very nice value.


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## dingeryote (Jun 4, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> I've been told (I think from Dinger) to spend as much on glass as your rifle.
> 
> I am really reconsidering my next big purchase.
> 
> ...




It depends on where the manufacturer cheaped out on the 24X.

I have seen Budget optics with fair to decent glass that rivaled those well above thier price range, and they wouldn't pass a box test in a fixture.
Also have seen high end and high dollar Tactical scopes, that would tolerate bieng bolted to a paint mixer for a week, but had optical flaws many cheaper scopes available do not.

Put everything at a high balance and you will pay, but only pay once. 
Finding reasonably well balanced and higher quality optics at a fair price is the challenge.

Keep shopping and learning, while waiting for the right opportunity to snag the right glass.
You buy cheap several times, but you buy quality once.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## mdavlee (Jun 4, 2012)

Zeiss has real clear glass but doesn't have a mil dot reticle and target turrets in my price range. I've been planning on spending $1k on a scope and a little less on the rifle for a while.


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## Genius. (Jun 4, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Zeiss has real clear glass but doesn't have a mil dot reticle and target turrets in my price range. I've been planning on spending $1k on a scope and a little less on the rifle for a while.



Thats what I'm looking at too. Around $1000-1500 for glass.

I want a mil dot reticle at least.


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## ShoerFast (Jun 4, 2012)

Ziess Z-600 ranging function has hash-marks regularly spaced at 2" apart @ 100 yards.

It is rather easy to range your target, and the hold-over marks are every close to perfect at belted magunim ballistics speeds 

Understanding others preferences, for what I need. The Z-600 feature works better then expected for me.

Picture taken with a cell phone camera, you wouldn't believe how much clearer it is in person.


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## Genius. (Jun 4, 2012)

Do I have a winner?






When I read about the first cold bore shot, is this lone hole what they talk about?


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## Genius. (Jun 4, 2012)

I did a loaded up some of the exact same rounds. The only difference was the press they were loaded on.

The stuff I shot Saturday was the last ones I loaded on a old wore out Texan press. Since then I got a Forster CO/AX. 

Same primers
Same bullets
Same powder
Same seating depth and COAL
I even used the same brass

I'm impressed. 

Woodchucks here I come.

We also have a seagull problem here. Our farm is 5 miles from the dump and those damn birds like making pit stops in our fields:hmm3grin2orange:


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## ZeroJunk (Jun 4, 2012)

Just curious, do you guys headspace your belted magnum on the shoulder or do you just run it through a full length resizing die and let it headspace on the belt ?


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## ShoerFast (Jun 4, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Just curious, do you guys headspace your belted magnum on the shoulder or do you just run it through a full length resizing die and let it headspace on the belt ?



I think the belt is more of a bells & whistles thing. Sort of a back in day it looked cool. As it replicated the H&H sholderless 'belted' mags.

Purely hunting, I feel real comfortable FL resizing my brass and take the best load I can develop from that.

My someday project will be to work up a screaming hot light bullet load for the tightist group I can get.

That load will be based on fire-formed hand selected brass head-spacing off the shoulder.

The light bullet load would be more of a parrie dog / coyote load. And if a case seems a little tight closing, that brass will get a FL and be another elk load.


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## dingeryote (Jun 4, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Just curious, do you guys headspace your belted magnum on the shoulder or do you just run it through a full length resizing die and let it headspace on the belt ?



Shoulder. Redding FL sizing die polished out to just bump the case, near the belt for centering.
I hate it when the bolt has to fight a tight case on a hunting rifle, and I have found very little accuracy benefit to neck sizing only and running "Squeezers" in a barrel that wont split fish hairs to begin with.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jun 5, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Shoulder. Redding FL sizing die polished out to just bump the case, near the belt for centering.
> I hate it when the bolt has to fight a tight case on a hunting rifle, and I have found very little accuracy benefit to neck sizing only and running "Squeezers" in a barrel that wont split fish hairs to begin with.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



I use bottleneck cases (.27OWin and .257R) which headspace on the shoulder. RCBS describes a process called "partial resizing" with RCBS FL sizing dies. To do partial resizing properly, one must first measure the exact headspace of their rifle with an RCBS Precision Mic. The FL die is then adjusted with the Precision Mic to set the shoulder back the bare minimum needed for easy chambering. 

Setting the shoulder back to the actual chamber length of a given rifle (instead of to factory specifications) results in less working of the brass and a noticeable increase in case life.

The RCBS Precision Mic takes the guess work out of setting your FL sizing dies.


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## ZeroJunk (Jun 5, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Shoulder. Redding FL sizing die polished out to just bump the case, near the belt for centering.
> I hate it when the bolt has to fight a tight case on a hunting rifle, and I have found very little accuracy benefit to neck sizing only and running "Squeezers" in a barrel that wont split fish hairs to begin with.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



I was suggesting it more in terms of brass life, not just neck sizing but backing off your full length die for your chamber.

The belted magnums I have loaded seemed to be plenty accurate enough for my purposes either way.


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## ZeroJunk (Jun 5, 2012)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> I use bottleneck cases (.27OWin and .257R) which headspace on the shoulder. RCBS describes a process called "partial resizing" with RCBS FL sizing dies. To do partial resizing properly, one must first measure the exact headspace of their rifle with an RCBS Precision Mic. The FL die is then adjusted with the Precision Mic to set the shoulder back the bare minimum needed for easy chambering.
> 
> Setting the shoulder back to the actual chamber length of a given rifle (instead of to factory specifications) results in less working of the brass and a noticeable increase in case life.
> 
> The RCBS Precision Mic takes the guess work out of setting your FL sizing dies.



You can do it by feel with a little patience although your way would be better.


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## ShoerFast (Jun 5, 2012)

.


TheGenius said:


> Do I have a winner?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looking good!

If that if the tightist group by powder charge (looks real good!).

Watching for pressure changes, play with the seating depth if you would like.

Flyers are a study in themselves.
They could be anything from a rifle that needs a good cleaning, to bedding and action screws not what it should be.

A good deep scrubbing with a good follow-up bore-coat really helps out sometimes.

Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner helped a first-shot wanderer for me.

Products « Montana X-Treme


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## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 5, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Just curious, do you guys headspace your belted magnum on the shoulder or do you just run it through a full length resizing die and let it headspace on the belt ?


Belted magnums are by design headspaced off of the belt. If you form your brass so the 
shoulder is the exact length of your chamber they you are "headspacing" off of 2 points of 
contact. Exacting but possible. But gains you nothing over fireforming.



dingeryote said:


> Shoulder. Redding FL sizing die polished out to just bump the case, near the belt for centering.
> I hate it when the bolt has to fight a tight case on a hunting rifle, and I have found very little accuracy benefit to neck sizing only and running "Squeezers" in a barrel that wont split fish hairs to begin with.



I fire form and neck size so in effect I am doing both. The brass case by the nature of brass
relaxes slightly smaller than the chamber of your rifle so it can be extracted. Once fireformed,
it is the exact match for your chamber. If your fire formed brass is not feeding in to the 
chamber and you are having issues with the bolt closing hard something else is wrong, I would 
first look at bullet seating depth first.

If you then FL size your brass you are making it smaller and "working" the brass, over time
the brass with work harden and fatigue. By only resizing the neck you minimize the work 
hardening and significantly extend the useable life of the case. Every time you FL size your 
case length grows and will need to be measured for any cases that are too long to be 
safely reloaded. Neck sizing eliminates this growth.

Depending on your brass many cases are $1-2 each these days and cost of new is significant.

You can anneal your cases to reverse work hardening. This adds time and cose to reloading. 
I still anneal my case mouths about every 10 reloadings. In the manufacturing of the new 
(bottleneck) brass cases, they are annealed twice, straight walled cases usually just once. 



ZeroJunk said:


> I was suggesting it more in terms of brass life, not just neck sizing but backing off your full length die for your chamber.
> 
> The belted magnums I have loaded seemed to be plenty accurate enough for my purposes either way.


+1


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## ZeroJunk (Jun 5, 2012)

> Belted magnums are by design headspaced off of the belt. If you form your brass so the
> shoulder is the exact length of your chamber they you are "headspacing" off of 2 points of
> contact. Exacting but possible. But gains you nothing over fireforming.



They were designed to headspace off the belt but according to the guys on the gun forums they usually headspace on the shoulder. For you not to be able to headpsace on the shoulder and have the belt with somewhat more headspace you would have to have close to zero headspace on the belt to start with.


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## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 5, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> They were designed to headspace off the belt but according to the guys on the gun forums they usually headspace on the shoulder. For you not to be able to headpsace on the shoulder and have the belt with somewhat more headspace you would have to have close to zero headspace on the belt to start with.



I agree.

As far as gaining accuracy in a typically hunting rifle, I doubt you would see any. Fire forming
in my bolt actions v. FL sizing, maybe I see a little gain but it is less than the normal variation.

I mainly neck size for the benefits of 1) longer case life and 2) ease of reloading. As a side note I have successfully neck sized and shoot 5.56 NATO* in my competition AR-15. I do have a match grade barrel on it, working on other upgrades. I have had no feeding issues; yes, I was surprised. I have a select group of cases for my match ammo. Everything else (for the .223 Remington) my buddy and I FL size, cause we never know what gun the rounds go into.

* I have them load hotter than standard .223 Remington max loads, but my barrel is a true 5.56 x 45 Nato chamber, so I have no safety issues there. I shoot 68,69 and 75 grain Sierra and Hornady match grade bullets. Thinking of dropping the Hornady's, I was experimenting with them and see no benefit over Sierra's in performance or price, they are good, just not better.

I shoot service rifle match's, or open matches. M1A1 and a M1 Garand are on my short want list.


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## ZeroJunk (Jun 5, 2012)

I just load hunting rounds becasue I don't care to pay $40 or $50 bucks for a box of Nosler Partitions or other premium hunting bullets.

Most of the time you can get 1 1/2 inches or less pretty easy in a bolt action hunting rifle and I don't chase 1/2 inch groups like I used to.

In hunting conditions the limiting factor is going to be wind, rest, and me. And, I'm not one to take a long shot anyway.


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## ShoerFast (Jun 8, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> I just load hunting rounds becasue I don't care to pay $40 or $50 bucks for a box of Nosler Partitions or other premium hunting bullets.
> 
> Most of the time you can get 1 1/2 inches or less pretty easy in a bolt action hunting rifle and I don't chase 1/2 inch groups like I used to.
> 
> In hunting conditions the limiting factor is going to be wind, rest, and me. And, I'm not one to take a long shot anyway.



Gotta Love Nolser in general, I lean a little more towards the Ballistic-tips. That is in the minority here. But they are fantastic for keeping game in their place.

Every year your hear of disputes over who's elk is who's when 'dead elk walking' decides to take a stroll with a deep-penetration bullet.







BTs shoot a little tighter groups then Partitions do for me.

Ballistic tips are border line fragmenters deep in the cavity. The effect are meat on the table!


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## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 9, 2012)

ShoerFast said:


> Gotta Love Nolser in general, I lean a little more towards the Ballistic-tips. That is in the minority here. But they are fantastic for keeping game in their place.
> 
> Every year your hear of disputes over who's elk is who's when 'dead elk walking' decides to take a stroll with a deep-penetration bullet.
> 
> ...


I used to swear by Partitions, then I tried Barnes TSX bullets, 
Partition's are very good, TSX's are better.

I personally have never had good luck with any of the plastic 
tipped bullets.


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