# Problem with Oaks



## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

Guys... not sure if this is the right forum for this, but it seems more appropriate to post here vs. Commercial Tree Care and Climbing 

I have a customer with a problem. Several pics will follow. The facts as I know them are:

-red oak planted approx 18yrs ago as part of back yard landscape project
-tree is surrounded by a brick patio and brick planters
-brick is set in morter

Symptoms: I don't know the technical terms for this so here is my best shot. Appears to be a "girdling" effect happening at the crotches. Don't see it at other parts of the tree: only the crotches. Looks like cambium layer slowly dies off... this continues 360 degrees around the stem, then the entire branch dies.

While I don't know the root cause here, I do know that the roots can't be getting enough oxygen due to the brick patio. The fact that the bricks are set in morter further complicates matters of water and O2 absorption. The tree should be much bigger after 18yrs....it's environment has played a role in that for sure.

Your insights are appreciated here. Pics to follow.


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

more pics.


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

This one shows another limb. Look close above to see some dead leaves.


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

here is one that fell off in a recent wind storm....


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

the whole tree: remember, this is supposedly 18 yrs old!


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

here is the patio.


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

brick and morter


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

this branch is still alive.... there is still enough cambium to keep it alive...


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

the ultimate fate of the branches is death


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## Treeman14 (Oct 5, 2003)

Squirrels are chewing on the bark(they do stuff like that) and eventually girdling the limbs. Could be some other rodent type varmint, but most likely a squirrel.


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## TREETX (Oct 5, 2003)

Straight up tree rats. Seen that damage in red oaks, live oaks, cedar elms#1, and pecans.

I couldn't believe it was tree rats either. 

I have seen then girdle some big limbs.

Some powdery mildew there too.

.02


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

Squirrels  You have to be kidding me  

Wouldn't there be some type of "chew" marks?
Are they selective in this habit??? Why only the crotches?

I'm not biting that quickly......


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## heartland (Oct 5, 2003)

What about the other factors: surrounding brick with mortar causes reduced oxygen to roots, causes stressed tree, etc...

BTW - I left this tidbit out earlier: there are other oaks in the yard... 3 live oak out front, 1 live oak on side, another red oak about 10 yards from this one.

The live oaks out front have only two affected branches (that were obvious). The red oak next to this one did not have any.

This tree is saturated with the girdles.


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## Reed (Oct 6, 2003)

There's an issue - however moot due to the nature of Plano and other community/cultural tendencies to occupy a home for 1.3 years then sell and move on - that those Quercus texana's will expire from age related factors in another 10-15 years if those defects don't kill them first. I believe they are surviving the patio factors, fighting the chewing elements, and appear (in spite of the damage) in good health.

I recommend ground cayenne pepper (avaliable in large cannisters at discount grocery warehouses) applied every day to the peripheries of the wounds and base of the truncks. 

Also protect those exposed areas from Summer sunlight - keep the suckers established over them.


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## TREETX (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heartland _
> *Squirrels  You have to be kidding me
> 
> I'm not biting that quickly...... *



Wait until you tell the customer, they will feel the same way. I get skwerl call about that damage and also about all the little tips of cedar elms being snipped off when they go out to seed.....



> _Originally posted by heartland _
> *Wouldn't there be some type of "chew" marks?
> Are they selective in this habit??? Why only the crotches?*



There should be some chew marks somewhere. Keep in mind that this damage is fairly old. I don't know why but skwerlz have a habit of chewing to wound stuff, letting it callus and then chewing it again - making a huge callus. Seen some make what I call "plates" or "bowls".


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## TREETX (Oct 6, 2003)

Found this Q&A with a google search

Q.Why are chunks of bark gone from a limb of a tree?

A.Consider the possibility that this damage was caused by a squirrel. If this happens during a dry period, the squirrel may be searching for moisture. If that is the case, a pan of water placed at the base of the tree might help. If the squirrel is chewing for other reasons, try treating the area with a rabbit or deer repellent.


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## heartland (Oct 9, 2003)

Hmmm... ok, so has anybody ever tried Fox urine to combat the tree rats?

A friend here in Dallas solved a similar problem by strategically hanging little bottles/viles of fox urine throughout the canopy. Said they must be refreshed every 30 days or so.

I don't know how long the applications need to be maintained.


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## Stumper (Oct 9, 2003)

Pity the climber who has to hold the fox!


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## TREETX (Oct 9, 2003)

Deer are a pest here in Austin.

I have one client that was using some fox/coyote urine in little canisters that hung from the shrubs.

The deer stripped the leaves off all around the canisters. Guess deer don't leave the forest because a fox is there.

Reminds me of the sonic whistles that mount on the front of a vehicle to prevent the problem of smacking deer with your truck. I tried them and found that those things break right off when you hit a deer......

.02


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## Reed (Oct 10, 2003)

There's a big difference between what the fox predats and what a cougar stalks. The San Antonio zoo sells lion urine and it's close enough a feline match that deer around here freak out. We've had big cat visitors but the welfare-supported goat and sheep ranchers shoot them on sight, along with any remaining Golden eagles. Dolph Briscoe, former governor, has the cockpit floor of his Bell Jetranger littered with .22/.220 shell casings. His hobby is eagle hunting. In as much the deer are too many, now slight freaks of what the white tails used to be. 

Human hair balls I've seen tied to sensitive plants, but yuck. Another approach is human male semen - I can just see Uncle Henry out there applying a fresh night's coating, another "no thanks". Imagine the Plano Police Dept. trying to sort through that excuse. 

Tangle foot pisses squirrels off, and rats too, what's wrong with dusting the cayanne pepper? Too easy? No data?


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## heartland (Oct 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by oakwilt _
> *
> Tangle foot pisses squirrels off, and rats too, what's wrong with dusting the cayanne pepper? Too easy? No data? *



Oakwilt,

I was not trying to discount the cayenne pepper, however, you mentioned in the prior posting that it had to be applied every day to the peripheries of the wounds and base of the trunks.... I'm not sure the customer is willing to pay for that much effort


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## Reed (Oct 10, 2003)

Tim,
that's the difference between "consulting" and sweating for a living - you recommend it, on paper, detailing where to buy it cheapest, how to apply it appropriately, then bill them for the time/travel/assessment.

I used to conduct a Sunday morning live radio interview from my cabin on the phone with callers to the station a hundred miles away. Focus on oak wilt and callers were peppered throughout the State.

Sans the diagnostic necessities of seeing evidence firsthand and lacking the appropriate lab protocols of isolating specific pathogens from live samples, I had to seat-of-the-pants navigate by dead reckoning and descriptions of a myriad of physical symptoms interpreted thru a variant of descriptions provided by disgruntled homeowners, trophy wives, and illiterate immigrants. Given the characteristic attributes of symptomology regarding oak wilt, a 99% certainty of reverse venal necrosis implicating active disease is more dependable than university lab isolation studies, and it takes less time, plus it has no error of false positives. 

Recommendations were certainly more forthcoming than personal visits to sites and trees in question - I couldn't physically see to every potential customer needing help, but was very familiar with conventional suggested treatment regimens - all of which eventually fail their intended purpose. We did, however tend to retain some of the more interesting and challenging calls for later visits in person. 

Ferrous Sulfate was the treatment of choice. Immediate, and obtainable from varied sources cheaply and applied with no degree of complication or requirements that certification thru State agency or professional affliates need complicate any self-application - and illiterate and foreign intellects could as easily apply this mixture as the most tested Spalatial Physicist. 

Reports back from happy homeowners flooded my mailbox or returned calls live on the air. I had to remind people that this was a quick intervention, designed to suppress active symptoms until an evaluation could occur, given time and need. Eventually a toxin to be applied and a systemic treatment to increase the host's suppressive response would be recommended to further the success of this treatment, but never did I ever get around to seeing all who called. I won't ever, either. I no longer treat disease or consult for decline. Nonetheless, people still write and express joy.

To nip this long story short - to make it relevent anyway - you need not be there every morning after a night of precipitation to re-"dust" the crotches with spicy Mexican flavour additions. Get them to do it - save them money, make you some, and solve the problem. A good way to pave the road for success over the longer term than American business is customized to doing. 

That's all.

Good luck,

Reed


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## heartland (Oct 10, 2003)

Reed,

Thanks for the unique insight. It really helped me to see a new side of things... a new way of adding value to the customer and also more $$ in my pocket.

I appreciate your time


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