# Round-up Ready Sweetcorn



## Genius.

Disclaimer: this is not for me.

Dad is wanting to plant a few rows of Sweetcorn. The way he used to do it is turn a row off on the corn planter when we plant and come back and replant sweetcorn. But we use all round-up ready corn, so that option isn't available to him for his sweetcorn until the past few years when RR corn became available.

But the only way to get the stuff is buying it in bulk, but he is only wanting 1/2 pound max.

Do any if you guys know where to find it in small quantities?


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## Genius.

I'm not going to get into the whole Monsanto/ Round-Up discussion. 

Like I said, this is what my dad wants. I would never plant it, I don't condone it, but I told him I'd check around anyway.


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## Havana woody

I always wondered what Id get by drying out some husk from the grocery store


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## dingeryote

Genius.

Monsanto just became above the law by exec. Order.

They are gonna have field scouts looking at the dent anyhow. 

I dunno...

Bullet proof the dogs if you do find any. 

It's a hot topic around here. 
Several of the sweetcorn guys tried to purchase but didn't meet requirements, because they sell customer direct on a small scale.
It's almost like Monsanto is worried about every Granny in the Midwest growing a 1/4 acre patch, and the genes getting off the leash to the point of the patent bieng worthless or something...odd.:hmm3grin2orange:

I'll ask around.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Genius.

Del_ said:


> I've not heard of any on the market yet but it's sure to come out sometime.



I think this will be the third year on the market. But it's only available in large bags for the big producers.


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## Genius.

I prefer good ole Peaches and Cream.

Sweetcorn doesn't get any better than that.

Screw the extra extra extra extra extra extra extra sweet stuff.


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## farmer steve

smallest quanity available is 25M. price is between $10-14 per thousand. if you are growing RR field corn then you already have the license.Seigers seeds in MI has it in their catalog.


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## Genius.

farmer steve said:


> smallest quanity available is 25M. price is between $10-14 per thousand. if you are growing RR field corn then you already have the license.Seigers seeds in MI has it in their catalog.



Yea, Siegers is a few miles away, but like you said, only in large quantities. Dads only looking for 1/2 pound or so.

He's making calls to a few grower friends who might use it and see if they can spare a little, but nobody here uses it.


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## Marco

Roundupready doesn't bother me, the BT gene that comes with it does. Hippies don't want to come out and help hoe, so you fib on your RR field corn and nuke the sweetcorn with Atrazine. Father killed thisles with an orchard mist blower and Atrazine back in the day in corn.


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## farmer steve

Marco said:


> Roundupready doesn't bother me, the BT gene that comes with it does. Hippies don't want to come out and help hoe, so you fib on your RR field corn and nuke the sweetcorn with Atrazine. Father killed thisles with an orchard mist blower and Atrazine back in the day in corn.



actually the BT gene is a naturally occurring organism found in soil worldwide.unlike atrazine which is a chemical. there are lots of GM products out there that you wouldn't think of.insulin is one and also some thyroid medicines. judicious use of any product we use on our food is important. not advocating use of any product, its everyones choice. i use different things on the produce i grow . i work in it and eat all that i grow(except habaneros).l i'm required to attend food safety classes yearly and i try to stay on top of all the things going on. one mistake on my part and i could be out of business.






















ps. an old hippie that hates to hoe


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## Dalmatian90

farmer steve said:


> actually the BT gene is a naturally occurring organism found in soil worldwide.unlike atrazine which is a chemical.



Water is naturally occurring, but going for a swim wearing cement shoes generally ends badly.

There's more important things then trying to simplify stuff down to "this is natural...but that's a chemical."


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## LarryTheCableGuy

Dalmatian90 said:


> Water is naturally occurring, but going for a swim wearing cement shoes generally ends badly.
> 
> There's more important things then trying to simplify stuff down to "this is natural...but that's a chemical."



Exactly. Uranium is natural too, but I sure don't plan on eating any.


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## Sagetown

Genius. said:


> I prefer good ole Peaches and Cream.
> 
> Sweetcorn doesn't get any better than that.



I like that, and Incredible. My first planting this year was a wash. Just replanted today, and all they had was Merit. Hope it's good too.


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## farmer steve

Sagetown said:


> I like that, and Incredible. My first planting this year was a wash. Just replanted today, and all they had was Merit. Hope it's good too.



if you like yellow corn, two i've been growing the last couple years are colorow and honey select. nice size ears and good flavor.


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## gregn

Planted some RR peaches & cream 2 weeks ago. Got it from local co-op. Math turned out to be $.63 kernel! First year trying so no feedback to give on how it does.


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## farmer steve

gregn said:


> Planted some RR peaches & cream 2 weeks ago. Got it from local co-op. Math turned out to be $.63 kernel! First year trying so no feedback to give on how it does.



what was the actual name of it?


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## Sagetown

Del_ said:


> Yes, Incredible is incredible! I've grown it for a dozen or so years.
> 
> 
> Another great corn I grew for the first time last year is:
> 
> Montauk (F1) (synergistic) (Treated) - Johnny's Selected Seeds



I've never seen Montauk around here. Do you get it locally, or mail order?
It advertizes 'better flavor'. Man, how can you get better flavor than 'Incredible'? :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Genius.

gregn said:


> Planted some RR peaches & cream 2 weeks ago. Got it from local co-op. Math turned out to be $.63 kernel! First year trying so no feedback to give on how it does.



Holy crap!!

For that price your better off going to the local sweetcorn stand to buy it.


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## farmer steve

Del_ said:


> Yes, Incredible is incredible! I've grown it for a dozen or so years.
> 
> 
> Another great corn I grew for the first time last year is:
> 
> Montauk (F1) (synergistic) (Treated) - Johnny's Selected Seeds



hey Del that Montauk is awesome,been growin it since it first came out several years ago.customers love it. if you think incredible (SE) is good,try Honey Select(SY). my diehard incredible customers threw a hissy fit when i switched to honey select, now there's no lookin back. also colorow (sy) is a great yellow. i am a tightwad when it comes to buying seeds and have found Seigers Seeds out of MI to have very good prices.


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## Sagetown

farmer steve said:


> hey Del that Montauk is awesome,been growin it since it first came out several years ago.customers love it. if you think incredible (SE) is good,try Honey Select(SY). my diehard incredible customers threw a hissy fit when i switched to honey select, now there's no lookin back. also colorow (sy) is a great yellow. i am a tightwad when it comes to buying seeds and have found Seigers Seeds out of MI to have very good prices.



I think I'll give some of those varieties a try next year. I may order them now, while it's fresh on my mind. They ought to keep if I freeze them. What do y'all think?


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## luckydozenfarm

Genius. said:


> Yea, Siegers is a few miles away, but like you said, only in large quantities. Dads only looking for 1/2 pound or so.
> 
> He's making calls to a few grower friends who might use it and see if they can spare a little, but nobody here uses it.



hey I grow the stuff..the variety I like is a bi-color called Obsession II by Seminis. I buy it from Sieger Seed Co. It is also Bt corn, and it comes in 25Mil (about an acre's worth) bags. To buy it you need a License from Monsanto, which basically says you won't resell it to someone else, and follow a few other rules. ;( 

I know a lot of people hate Monsanto, but RR field corn has been around a long time and that's about all anyone grows now. I believe Dow Chemical has their own variety of Liberty Link corn, which is similar to Roundup. 

RR Triple-Pro sweet corn came out in 2011 and we were the first in our county to use it. Its wonderful, as there isn't any corn earworms and without weeds its easier to pick.

Here are some pics I took this morning. I sprayed roundup over it last weekend and you can see the kill down effect. PM me when you get a chance )
View attachment 294753
View attachment 294754
View attachment 294755
View attachment 294756


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## Sagetown

Del_ said:


> I wouldn't suggest buying it early. Order it next year in time for planting. Seed does not get better with age!



Good Enough. I ordered a seed catalog to help me remember.


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## Dalmatian90

I routinely buy seed either in bulk packages that will last me years, or on sale at the end of the season. Keep it in tupperware in the fridge over the winter.

Seeds are designed by Mother Nature to last...a long time. Mainly as long as they're kept dry. Keeping them cool helps keep the germination rates up.

That said, corn is one of those crops that is more difficult to deal with keeping seed over several years because it's generally planted as a row crop and it's sensitive to density, and even on a garden scale gets to be a bit much for overseeding then thinning out pretty quickly.

Stuff like lettuce, squash, etc. I can just plant a bit heavier to make up for any loss in germination in the seed and it doesn't matter that much whether I thin it or not. 

Anything you're starting inside is even easier to overseed, quick enough to pick through them after they germinate and reduce to one plant per spot.

If you are storing seed over the course of years, you can test the germination rate yourself. Most seeds count out 20, fold them into a damp (not dripping wet) paper towel, put it in a plastic bag on the kitchen counter for three days, then open it and count how many germinated. Should give you a pretty good indication of what to expect and decide whether its time to go buy new seed or not.


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## Havana woody

Archimedes European Commission to criminalize nearly all seeds and plants not registered with government 

A new law proposed by the European Commission would make it illegal to "grow, reproduce or trade" any vegetable seeds that have not been "tested, approved and accepted" by a new EU bureaucracy named the "EU Plant Variety Agency."

It's called the Plant Reproductive Material Law, and it attempts to put the government in charge of virtually all plants and seeds. Home gardeners who grow their own plants from non-regulated seeds would be considered criminals under this law.

The draft text of the law, which has already been amended several times due to a huge backlash from gardeners, is viewable here.

"This law will immediately stop the professional development of vegetable varieties for home gardeners, organic growers, and small-scale market farmers," said Ben Gabel, vegetable breeder and director of The Real Seed Catalogue. "Home gardeners have really different needs - for example they grow by hand, not machine, and can't or don't want to use such powerful chemical sprays. There's no way to register the varieties suitable for home use as they don't meet the strict criteria of the Plant Variety Agency, which is only concerned about approving the sort of seed used by industrial farmers."

Virtually all plants, vegetable seeds and gardeners to eventually be registered by government

All governments are, of course, infatuated with the idea of registering everybody and everything. Under Title IV of the proposed EU law:

Title IV Registration of varieties in national and Union registers
The varieties, in order to be made available on the market throughout the Union, shall be included in a national register or in the Union register via direct application procedure to the CVPO.

Gardeners must also pay fees to the EU bureaucracy for the registration of their seeds. From the proposed law text:

The competent authorities and the CPVO should charge fees for the processing of
applications, the formal and technical examinations including audits, variety denomination, and the maintenance of the varieties for each year for the duration of
the registration.

While this law may initially only be targeted at commercial gardeners, it sets a precedent to sooner or later go after home gardeners and require them to abide by the same insane regulations.

Government bureaucracy gone insane

"This is an instance of bureaucracy out of control," says Ben Gabel. "All this new law does is create a whole new raft of EU civil servants being paid to move mountains of papers round all day, while killing off the seed supply to home gardeners and interfering with the right of farmers to grow what they want. It also very worrying that they have given themselves the power to regulate and licence any plant species of any sort at all in the future - not just agricultural plants, but grasses, mosses, flowers, anything at all - without having to bring it back to the Council for a vote."


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## farmer steve

Havana woody said:


> Archimedes European Commission to criminalize nearly all seeds and plants not registered with government
> 
> A new law proposed by the European Commission would make it illegal to "grow, reproduce or trade" any vegetable seeds that have not been "tested, approved and accepted" by a new EU bureaucracy named the "EU Plant Variety Agency."
> 
> It's called the Plant Reproductive Material Law, and it attempts to put the government in charge of virtually all plants and seeds. Home gardeners who grow their own plants from non-regulated seeds would be considered criminals under this law.
> 
> The draft text of the law, which has already been amended several times due to a huge backlash from gardeners, is viewable here.
> 
> "This law will immediately stop the professional development of vegetable varieties for home gardeners, organic growers, and small-scale market farmers," said Ben Gabel, vegetable breeder and director of The Real Seed Catalogue. "Home gardeners have really different needs - for example they grow by hand, not machine, and can't or don't want to use such powerful chemical sprays. There's no way to register the varieties suitable for home use as they don't meet the strict criteria of the Plant Variety Agency, which is only concerned about approving the sort of seed used by industrial farmers."
> 
> Virtually all plants, vegetable seeds and gardeners to eventually be registered by government
> 
> All governments are, of course, infatuated with the idea of registering everybody and everything. Under Title IV of the proposed EU law:
> 
> Title IV Registration of varieties in national and Union registers
> The varieties, in order to be made available on the market throughout the Union, shall be included in a national register or in the Union register via direct application procedure to the CVPO.
> 
> Gardeners must also pay fees to the EU bureaucracy for the registration of their seeds. From the proposed law text:
> 
> The competent authorities and the CPVO should charge fees for the processing of
> applications, the formal and technical examinations including audits, variety denomination, and the maintenance of the varieties for each year for the duration of
> the registration.
> 
> While this law may initially only be targeted at commercial gardeners, it sets a precedent to sooner or later go after home gardeners and require them to abide by the same insane regulations.
> 
> Government bureaucracy gone insane
> 
> "This is an instance of bureaucracy out of control," says Ben Gabel. "All this new law does is create a whole new raft of EU civil servants being paid to move mountains of papers round all day, while killing off the seed supply to home gardeners and interfering with the right of farmers to grow what they want. It also very worrying that they have given themselves the power to regulate and licence any plant species of any sort at all in the future - not just agricultural plants, but grasses, mosses, flowers, anything at all - without having to bring it back to the Council for a vote."



just more cost for the end user,ie you and me if something like this would happen in USA. EU people won't be able to but a loaf of bread.IMO


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## Marco

Maybe the Bt isn't such a bad idea when you think of a bunch of Yentas tearing a half a pickup load apart looking for them 4 perfect ears.


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## farmer steve

Marco said:


> Maybe the Bt isn't such a bad idea when you think of a bunch of Yentas tearing a half a pickup load apart looking for them 4 perfect ears.



had that problem till i started growing Bt corn. told em they didn't have to peel it back cause there were no worms and if they found one at home when they were husking it i'd give them a free dozen. never did.


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## luckydozenfarm

farmer steve said:


> had that problem till i started growing Bt corn. told em they didn't have to peel it back cause there were no worms and if they found one at home when they were husking it i'd give them a free dozen. never did.



This year we picked our first patch of Round-up Ready Obsession II around Memorial Day and it had a few ear worms...I called Seminis and they wanted a few samples of the worms and the ear. Its funny because we had no damage on the leaves or stalk and only a few worms on the ear total throughout the field. I think I heard at a meeting that in the sweet corn they are having time getting the full expression of the Bt gene in the ear. I planted my refuge plot right next to it (a Mirai variety) and the damage was severe, even with spraying. Maybe we just had a good year for moths. What variety are you growing Steve?


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## farmer steve

luckydozenfarm said:


> This year we picked our first patch of Round-up Ready Obsession II around Memorial Day and it had a few ear worms...I called Seminis and they wanted a few samples of the worms and the ear. Its funny because we had no damage on the leaves or stalk and only a few worms on the ear total throughout the field. I think I heard at a meeting that in the sweet corn they are having time getting the full expression of the Bt gene in the ear. I planted my refuge plot right next to it (a Mirai variety) and the damage was severe, even with spraying. Maybe we just had a good year for moths. What variety are you growing Steve?



From what i have read if you have real hot weather at silking the Bt can be affected if the silk dries down to fast and moth activity is still high you can still see some worm damage.i had this happen several years ago with extremely hot weather. just very small worms in the very tip but still didnt have to use any chemical spray.LD what i'm growing this year is the temptation II. have to stick with the se & sy up here as the customers dont like the harder kernels of the Sh types.


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## luckydozenfarm

farmer steve said:


> From what i have read if you have real hot weather at silking the Bt can be affected if the silk dries down to fast and moth activity is still high you can still see some worm damage.i had this happen several years ago with extremely hot weather. just very small worms in the very tip but still didnt have to use any chemical spray.LD what i'm growing this year is the temptation II. have to stick with the se & sy up here as the customers dont like the harder kernels of the Sh types.




I was thinking of trying the Passion II on my next planting. I have to say I've never heard a bad thing about hard kernels. We use Sh3 varieties due to its sugar holding power in shipping. We plant about 3-5 acres at a time and it is all hand picked but I'm thinking of getting an Oxbo corn picker if I keep getting more orders and contracts. 

Let me say this to the Monsanto naysayers, if you ever get to hand pick 3 acres of sweet corn in a field that is COMPLETELY free of weeds, you will NEVER go back to anything else. Plus, even with all these people who claim to be "organic lovers", most people won't buy corn with a worm in it. Even my wife won't eat it. Bottom line if it has worms in it, it's basically cattle feed. 

So people can complain about Monsanto all they want. It's just talk and gives people something to complain about other than whatever Kim Kardashian was wearing. You just cannot grow "organic" corn where I live and try to sell it. The worms and weeds will get most of it and whatever you do have that is decent, no one wants to pay a premium to the growers for the excessive field loss they will incur. You will be out of business within the first season, I promise you that.
Even my heavily sprayed non-Bt refuge field is barely saleable in most cases. This last harvest had a worm in every ear I scouted and was a total bust. And not just a small worm, more like those giant inch long ones. Some even had two worms in each ear. We cut it, baled it and tossed it to the cows. What a waste.


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## farmer steve

ijust want to say to all my fellow farmers that i dont want to see this thread to turn into a hate the other guy for what he or she grows or not.we live in the good Ole USA so we can have choices,good, bad or indifferent. everyone have a great growing season and fight the weeds and bugs however you have to. "and thats all i have to say about that."


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## luckydozenfarm

Del_ said:


> No TV here so there's not much keeping up with the Kardashians going on.
> 
> 
> GMO crops are a grave concern to many, pun intended, and quite likely mega corp dollars are opening Pandora's box.
> 
> Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.



Well I think Steve said it best. You grow what you want and we will grow what we want. If you don't like GMO crops you don't have to eat them. Grow and hunt all of your own food and live off that. To debate the health concerns over GMO crops is right up there with global warming. You will have opponents on either side. There isn't anything other than hard evidence that will change my mind on the subject, so posting a video about some guy in a labcoat spewing proven incorrect information about GMO's won't dissuade my opinion at the least. And I'm sure you nothing I say will change your mind, so lets just leave it at that.


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## luckydozenfarm

Del_ said:


> First Ever Long-Term Study of GMO Corn Shows Strong Link To Breast Cancer, Liver Cancer, and Premature Death in Rats
> 
> First Ever Long-Term Study of GMO Corn Shows Strong Link To Breast Cancer, Liver Cancer, and Premature Death in Rats



This study you are talking about is the famous Seralini study that is viewed flawed by many researchers on both sides of the GMO issue. You may have wanted to look that up before you copy and pasted this off Google. If you really knew anything about this issue this would not have been the link to prove your point.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonenti...k-a-turning-point-in-the-debate-over-gm-food/
http://www.aei.org/article/energy-a...ini-finally-responds-to-torrent-of-criticism/
http://www.newscientist.com/article...crops-and-cancer-questioned.html#.UbibyVgo670

http://www.science20.com/cool-links/hyped_séralini_gm_maize_study_looks_worse_every_day-95172
http://www.agbioworld.org/newsletter_wm/index.php?caseid=archive&newsid=2945


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## Dalmatian90

> Even my heavily sprayed non-Bt refuge field is barely saleable in most cases. This last harvest had a worm in every ear I scouted and was a total bust. And not just a small worm, more like those giant inch long ones. Some even had two worms in each ear. We cut it, baled it and tossed it to the cows. What a waste.



I believe Del's point is...do you think your Bt corn will be any different 20 years down the road?

Refuge plots are akin to firewood transport bans -- they will slow the spread of exotic insects, or in this case the spread of any Bt resistant bugs, but develop and spread they will. 

This is a separate issue from folks who have concerns over the proteins being introduced into GE foods and whether there will be allergy or other health concerns from them. There the science is more in the "we don't *know* of anything bad, of course we don't really even know what we're supposed to be looking for either."

With resistance to glyphosate and Bt, we know it occurs, and we know unless we practice "safe sex" in the farm fields it will occur and spread, and we know industrial agriculture is not good at developing and following best practices but instead slaps bandaids over bandaids (such as irradiating meat or dosing it with ammonia because of cultural practices that created more dangerous forms of e-coli combined with processing practices that don't keep meat clean)

Once the constant pressure of Bt from hybrid crops develops resistant strains of insects, the use of applied Bt to deal with specific problems, at specific times, by non-GE growers will be eliminated as well.


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## luckydozenfarm

Dalmatian90 said:


> I believe Del's point is...do you think your Bt corn will be any different 20 years down the road?
> 
> Refuge plots are akin to firewood transport bans -- they will slow the spread of exotic insects, or in this case the spread of any Bt resistant bugs, but develop and spread they will.
> 
> This is a separate issue from folks who have concerns over the proteins being introduced into GE foods and whether there will be allergy or other health concerns from them. There the science is more in the "we don't *know* of anything bad, of course we don't really even know what we're supposed to be looking for either."
> 
> With resistance to glyphosate and Bt, we know it occurs, and we know unless we practice "safe sex" in the farm fields it will occur and spread, and we know industrial agriculture is not good at developing and following best practices but instead slaps bandaids over bandaids (such as irradiating meat or dosing it with ammonia because of cultural practices that created more dangerous forms of e-coli combined with processing practices that don't keep meat clean)
> 
> Once the constant pressure of Bt from hybrid crops develops resistant strains of insects, the use of applied Bt to deal with specific problems, at specific times, by non-GE growers will be eliminated as well.



Resistance for herbicides and insecticides is nothing new to a farmer. We have been battling both since the dawn of agriculture. There are already weeds resistant to Atrazine and Liberty Link. Most of the corn earworm moths in our area are resistant to Pounce and Bayroid. We have flies that are resistant to the ear tags we have been using for years on our cows. So you are worried that weeds will be resistant to Roundup? So what? It's inevitable, just like I won't live to be 120. 

When you apply for a grower's license from Monsanto, you will have to sign waivers and follow the Stewardship Agreement inside the Technology Use Guide manual. You are then giving them the right to enter your fields to take tissue samples and to make sure you are following their agreement to the letter T. 

If you are accusing them of applying "bandaids" as solutions to insect/weed resistance I would like to know where you are getting that information. We shouldn't place blame on any individual company due to the lack of oversight of another. I'm not saying they do or do not, but I work with Monsanto as a test grower and they are in my fields as much or more than I am. They have done 3 soil analysis tests just this season and they have mandated my fields to be sprayed at their exact glyphosate ratio. These guys are serious about what they do. Now how do I know this? Is it because I read a bunch of stuff off the internet from the Huffington Post or the Mother Earth News? No. Do I get my news from Fox News? No. I have been to many DeKalb seminars and I work with them on a daily basis.

I'm not saying GMO crops are completely safe. No scientist will ever say that. But what is worse is misleading scientific studies deliberately aimed to scare the public. The Seralini study mentioned by Del was the worst thing to happen to GMO, and it was completely based on flawed fundamental principles. Seralini himself admitted to it publicly. Yet, the damage had already been done, and the public's usual ignorant knee-jerk reaction was swift. 

Hundreds of independent studies have been done and so far GMO's have never been proven to be unsafe. In fact, billions of tons of GMO corn has been consumed by millions of people and not one shred of evidence has shown to the contrary. How many studies is it going to take for the public to accept GMO's? I have no idea.


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## Dalmatian90

> If you are accusing them of applying "bandaids" as solutions to insect/weed resistance I would like to know where you are getting that information.



From you.



> Resistance for herbicides and insecticides is nothing new to a farmer. We have been battling both since the dawn of agriculture. There are already weeds resistant to Atrazine and Liberty Link. Most of the corn earworm moths in our area are resistant to Pounce and Bayroid. We have flies that are resistant to the ear tags we have been using for years on our cows. So you are worried that weeds will be resistant to Roundup? *So what? It's inevitable*



Likely for longer then man has existed, worms have been dying from ingesting Bt toxins.

Some people have seen that, and have exploited it responsibly in ways that didn't require "agreements" and licenses and maintaining refuge plots to limit the speed of the development of resistance...because they have used it in moderation and in targeted manners so the resistance hasn't developed.

Other farmers are like you -- who gives a ####, I'll be dead, I got mine. When Bt no longer works, we'll just slap another bandaid on the problem in the form of some new pesticide, because our monocultural, industrialized techniques invariably create resistance.


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## luckydozenfarm

Dalmatian90 said:


> From you.
> 
> 
> 
> Likely for longer then man has existed, worms have been dying from ingesting Bt toxins.
> 
> Some people have seen that, and have exploited it responsibly in ways that didn't require "agreements" and licenses and maintaining refuge plots to limit the speed of the development of resistance...because they have used it in moderation and in targeted manners so the resistance hasn't developed.
> 
> Other farmers are like you -- who gives a ####, I'll be dead, I got mine. When Bt no longer works, we'll just slap another bandaid on the problem in the form of some new pesticide, because our monocultural, industrialized techniques invariably create resistance.



What farmers are fighting is people like yourself. Plenty of time to complain, whine, and shove the problems down our throat and then still demand cheap food whenever and wherever they want it. You have a better idea than the thousands of scientists working on this? I would LOVE to hear it. 

Now you're treading some deep water:

To say I don't give a ### about sustainable farming is ludicrous. That's ALL I do all day. I don't have a 8-5 M-F working in the A/C. I am a farmer..I don't clock out. You liberal do-nothings spout all the problems without any solutions.

You misunderstood what I was saying...yes, insects will become resistant to Bt. It was inevitable whether we stepped in as humans or not. That's how life works. Coming up with a new pesticide that is better is not a bandaid, but a solution. I couldn't begin to describe all the benefits glyphosate has over Atrazine (what we used before Round up). Why are you so opposed to it when there is no evidence that it is harmful? And you would be ok with us going back to Atrazine??? Which you have to mix with a chem suit and a mask, not to mention that it contaminates groundwater? 

Are you even a farmer? Or am I just wasting my breath with someone who wouldn't know a field of corn from a field of sorghum?


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## Marco

Marco likes the smell of crop oil and Atrazine in the morning, honest. Just an earthy smell.


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## Marco

My manager got me into 25 acres of Brome that don't need nothing cept lime and a N fertilizer.


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## lone wolf

Del_ said:


> Speaking of cheap food................we all know the farmer is getting a very small percentage of what food sells for at the supermarket and it isn't fair. Monsanto probably makes more on your crop than you do.
> 
> Why are you so pro when there is no evidence that GMO's aren't harmful, not just to the humans that consume it, but quite possibly to many other plants and animals?
> 
> Do you believe you understand all of the long term consequences of GMO's? Or like Monsanto, is your motivation purely about money, and if there are problems, oh well?
> 
> 
> The video reposed below ought to make a farmer think a little about the role they play as pawns in the GMO game. I edited my posting of the video you said was flawed and had bad information.


Who needs terrorists we are already being poisoned from within!


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## farmer steve

from Harvard professor Calaestos Juma( look him up on the web). "as the world's food challenges increase, so must humanity enlarge it's toolbox to include genetic modification and other technologies such as satellites for monitoring land resources. but these techniques are not silver bullets. they must be part of a wider system of innovation that includes improving interactions between academia, gov't, business and farmers.from1996 to 2011 transgenic crops saved nearly 1BILLION pounds of active pesticide ingredients. it also reduced 51 BILLION pounds of carbon dioxide,the equivalent of taking 10.2MILLION cars off the road. without transgenic crops the world would need another 420,000 square MILES roughly the size of ethiopa for the same level of output."

i'm not saying safe or not safe, but unless something life threatning is discovered i guess gmo's are here for a while. tobacco is still grown here in the good ole' USA and we all know it causes all types of illnesses and even DEATH but you all know it's still available for anyone that wants to use it. heck back in the 1870's people didn't even want to use electricty because it was evil. crap and lots of it if i had to send this via carrier pigeon.

one more tidbit. 1 american farmer feeds about 155 people worldwide today, in 1960 that number was barely 26.


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## Dalmatian90

> Now you're treading some deep water:
> 
> To say I don't give a ### about sustainable farming is ludicrous. That's ALL I do all day. I don't have a 8-5 M-F working in the A/C. I am a farmer..I don't clock out. You liberal do-nothings spout all the problems without any solutions.
> 
> You misunderstood what I was saying...yes, insects will become resistant to Bt. It was inevitable whether we stepped in as humans or not. That's how life works. Coming up with a new pesticide that is better is not a bandaid, but a solution. I couldn't begin to describe all the benefits glyphosate has over Atrazine (what we used before Round up). Why are you so opposed to it when there is no evidence that it is harmful?



That deep water must be a kiddie pool after a long dry spell.

Insects developing resistance to Bt is NOT inevitable. In nature the gene pool has remained diverse enough to keep that resistance from developing. As Bt has been used up until now gene pool diversity was maintained to keep resistance from developing.

It is inevitable the way Bt genes are being introduced to our farming system.

Your vision of "sustainable" is simply expecting you can buy some different external input in the future -- whether it's a licensed seed with GE traits, or a new chemical.

I'm familiar with Atrazine v. glyphosate. But what are you going to do when the weeds become resistant to glyphosate as well, either because of it natural selection from constant use of glyphosate? 

Do I have glyphosate in my garage? Yep. I have 2,4-D too. Some Sevin. A couple different organic approved insecticides as well. All used sparingly, and targeted at specific problems when they're my best option. I'm a gardener, though I can get around the farms in this area just fine. And I know the differences between gardening and farming -- and which problems and practices do not scale in one direction or the other. 

My vision of "sustainable" is a rejection of Nixon's go big or get out policies, to say that smaller, diversified farms are better for rural economies, better for the environment, and better for our national health. Recognition that there are areas that farming doesn't make sense and ranching instead should dominate permanent grasslands. Substitution of intense management for purchasing external inputs. That thousands of scientists are only pursuing developing the next input to sell to farmers...because they're paid by the folks who want to sell something to farmers, and that if you put them to work instead on developing low-input systems the productivity of those low external input systems would increase dramatically. Recognition that all industrialized democracies spend a combined 21% of GDP on healthcare and food -- most split it 10% health, 11% food...the U.S. being the greatest deviation at 5% food, 16% healthcare and I believe that is directly related to cheap food in, garbage health out.

The stories of my aunts & uncles picking brussel sprouts and pickling cucumbers on my grandparent's truck farm are distant to me. Having watched the decline of dairy farms and collapse of poultry in my area though, watching the Renaissance of local farms selling to local folks here is one of the greatest things I've seen. Most of it is not powered by hippies going back to the land, but instead by families a generation or two after farmers who had thrown in the towel competing in commodity markets finding ways to make money off their family land again.


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## farmer steve

Del_ said:


> Farmer Steve,
> 
> How about the spreading of GMO's into the general environment?
> 
> This is a major concern and is already happening.



i guess you are talking about cross pollination between nongmo & gmo crops because that is the only issue i can think of. this only being a concern to exporters of grain crops. sad to say my neighbors raise organic chickens. some days these poor chickens dont eat for two days because the company that contracts with my neighbor won't feed them gmo grain and when they get their organic feed, some gorge themselves till they croak. all because they might get $.50 less per chicken. i raise livestock and my animals always eat before me.


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## farmer steve

Marco said:


> Marco likes the smell of crop oil and Atrazine in the morning, honest. Just an earthy smell.



me to:msp_w00t:


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## Genius.

As a farmer I am indifferent to the whole GMO contraversy. I see and can understand both sides of the issue.

For one, the world population is getting larger and larger, and the farmers are getting fewer and fewer, and there is no more land being made. So the few farmers that are left are having to do more with what they have. And to put it bluntly, GMO crops is the way to get cheap food to the mass's.

This world couldn't survive if the corn yield was that of the mid 2000's, much less the 80's and 90's. especially now that we burn so much corn in the form of ethanol. Don't even get me going on High Fructose Corn Syrup!!!!!!!! Today a corn and soybean product is in everything, and I mean everything. So not only do we need to feed more people, we are using a food source for fuel and consumables. (Both of which are not sustainable)

Take last summer around here for instance. We had one of the worst droughts ever. Prior to last summer the drought of 1988 was the worst. I wasnt old enough to remember 88, but from what dad says, crops were pretty much a complete loss. We litterly had nothing. 
Now last year was worst than 88, and with the technology in today's corn we averaged 147 bushel/acre over all. Out of our 1300 acres of corn only 40 of that is irrigated and that got 250 bu/A. 

So as a farmer, to be able to play we need this stuff. 

Now, for me personally, I try to stay away from it. The food I grow in the garden is way better, and I prefer buying local what I don't grow to keep the money local. 

People have choices, I chose to eat healthier food, not "food" that consists of #### that you need a doctorate to be able to pronounce the main ingredient's, or "food" where the sodium content for one serving is all the sodium you should have in a day. And I'm sorry, but I don't classify High Fructose Corn Syrup as a food either.....


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## Genius.

What needs to happen in this country is for everyone to learn to grow their own food. Til up 1/2 the yard and plant veggies. People of this country need to take gardening lesons from Del and Dalmation. 
I know I do, I wish I could grow a garden 1/8 as good as these two do.


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## Genius.

Personally, I don't think the health issues of today are from GMO like some claim. I believe it is from all the fake crap in our food.

Today everyone eats processed food, they don't eat natural food. I think there is more risk in eating potassium bentonite, gum acacia, brominated vegitable oil, yellow 5 and high fructose corn syrup (what's in this empty soda can I just found) than eating a ear of round-up ready sweetcorn.

I'd classify the food that people eat today as a laboratory experiment instead of food.


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## lone wolf

So what is killing all the Bees?


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## Genius.

Oh, and to answer my original question, dad found some RR corn.

Also, I'm a little frustrated right now. I'm on my 3rd planting of corn right now. I originally bought 1/2 pound of Peaches and Cream, and I replanted twice, only 4 plants germinated. 
I'm trying a different variety now.

I need to call my supplier, I think he got bad seed in.


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## farmer steve

View attachment 300065
View attachment 300066


picture on left sprayed with conventional corn herbicide. now will have to spend additional fuel,time,more chemical herbicide to clean this patch up plus 3 or 4 insecticide sprays to keep the worms out.

pic on right is gmo sweet corn.next time i am in this patch will be to pick it. no additional time or money or chemicals.

being a one man operation i need to keep all inputs to a minimum.


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## Genius.

About 5 years ago we started to go no-til. As far as we are concerned, it's the best thing that we have ever done. 

Our weed issued have been cut back by 50%. 

We usually only have to hit the fields once with roundup after its been planted. Everyone else around who does conventional tiling will hit their fields twice.

Then if you add up the other benifits (fuel, nutrient run off, labor)


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## luckydozenfarm

Del_ said:


> You also could have cultivated before it got so bad. Cultivate, hill and side dress at the same time.
> 
> I can't say I've seen many farmers let weeds get so far out of hand. Looks like bad farming practices.




LOL..

Steve, I think we are outnumbered. I'm bowing out of this thread myself. Let them think what they want, I've come to terms with the fact that they are going to argue with us until eternity. Nice looking patch in the second pic, hope you have the picking help before the racoons get to it. Last night my Golden Malrin bait pans took out at least 3 big coons. Too bad Seminis hasn't GMO'd a crop that can repel those suckers. I'm sure that's coming...lol..I can hear the grumbling now...haha


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## luckydozenfarm

Genius. said:


> About 5 years ago we started to go no-til. As far as we are concerned, it's the best thing that we have ever done.
> 
> Our weed issued have been cut back by 50%.
> 
> We usually only have to hit the fields once with roundup after its been planted. Everyone else around who does conventional tiling will hit their fields twice.
> 
> Then if you add up the other benifits (fuel, nutrient run off, labor)



What crop are you no-tilling? What kind of planter do you use?


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## Genius.

luckydozenfarm said:


> What crop are you no-tilling? What kind of planter do you use?



We have always no tiled soybeans. Corn has been 5 years now.

We run Kinze planters

Then for wheat we use a Deere grain drill


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## Genius.

Genius. said:


> We have always no tiled soybeans. Corn has been 5 years now.
> 
> We run Kinze planters
> 
> Then for wheat we use a Deere grain drill



Oops, for our corn planter, it's not a stock Kinze planter. We have different coulters on it to help dig


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## luckydozenfarm

View attachment 300077


View attachment 300078
My Obsession II sweet corn at V-5 stage. Sprayed one pass of Roundup Powermax at .75 oz/gal 6 days before pic taken. Zero weeds, and I mean not ONE...freaking...weed..no cultivation to reduce soil moisture or create wind erosion either. The fertilizer was injected on planting to reduce nitrogen loss and runoff. There will not be one drop of pesticide sprayed on this corn and will be the last time the tractor hits this field before the picker gets to it. These four rows were planted to fill a contract to a local fruit stand. He bought some last year and flew off the shelves even though he did advertise it was GMO corn. As far as I know, I have not heard of any deaths in our area due to people eating this.


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## luckydozenfarm

Genius. said:


> Oops, for our corn planter, it's not a stock Kinze planter. We have different coulters on it to help dig



So if you no till, I'm assuming you use a preseason burn down herbicide? What do you use? Most people I know who no-till rely heavily on Round-up Ready crops because they don't do a mid-season cultivation pass and spray glyphosate. Not saying I've seen everything, esp where you live, but I've never seen a no-till without Round-up Ready crops down here. How do you do keep your weeds out mid season?


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## luckydozenfarm

luckydozenfarm said:


> So if you no till, I'm assuming you use a preseason burn down herbicide? What do you use? Most people I know who no-till rely heavily on Round-up Ready crops because they don't do a mid-season cultivation pass and spray glyphosate. Not saying I've seen everything, esp where you live, but I've never seen a no-till without Round-up Ready crops down here. How do you do keep your weeds out mid season?




Oh sorry Genius, I see what you posted, I just didn't read it right I guess..lol
Never mind


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## farmer steve

Del_ said:


> You also could have cultivated before it got so bad. Cultivate, hill and side dress at the same time.
> 
> I can't say I've seen many farmers let weeds get so far out of hand. Looks like bad farming practices.



rain every other day for the last couple of weeks doesn't allow for to much field work. so far since 6/1 almost 5" of rain. this is the worst field i've had in 10 years. you can't cultivate corn till it reaches a certain height without the risk of covering it up or rooting it out. dont need to sidedress as these fields had ORGANIC broiler manure applied to them before planting.


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## luckydozenfarm

farmer steve said:


> rain every other day for the last couple of weeks doesn't allow for to much field work. so far since 6/1 almost 5" of rain. this is the worst field i've had in 10 years. you can't cultivate corn till it reaches a certain height without the risk of covering it up or rooting it out. dont need to sidedress as these fields had ORGANIC broiler manure applied to them before planting.



besides you cant cultivate out the weeds within the row. 

I have now found a new use for aged cow manure that we used to spread out on the hayfield b/c of all the weed seeds in it. 

Before round up ready sweet corn, if you were to throw cow manure on a field and plant sweet corn on it, the Palmer Amaranth (pigweed) would come up so thick, you couldn't pick it for all the thorns. Even if you had the energy to run the Troy-bilt tiller down the rows. Now, I put as much manure as I can throw on the field and do a burn-down at V-4 and maybe another walk through with a backpack sprayer at picking time. I have even made a hooded sprayer hooked up to my tool bar that will go down between my tomato plants. Try hand picking tomatoes through 6 foot tall pigweed or sicklepod and you will quit farming. My grandpa told me how they used to check-row plant tomatoes back in the day, so you could cultivate in all four directions through the field. Well I use the hooded sprayer and I have had great success. Anything you can do to not break open the soil is beneficial to us, we don't get much rain past the end of June, and cultivating dries out the soil.


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## 8433jeff

I don't know much about Bt and GMO's, but the rest of the world is not going along with us (the US) on this stuff. Its wonderful, and the cheapest, easiest way to go as far as weeds. But if there isn't any honey bees, it won't matter how clean the rows are. Just recently Japan has banned rice imports from here because some GMO was mixed in. One of the by products of RoundupReady crops is glyphosate resistant coca and pot plants.

As far as cultivating goes, many have done it to break up the capillary action of the soil to save moisture, and the hillers or ridgebuilders do the same. 

Can't say I have an aversion to eating good sweet corn, but the high fructose corn syrup intake has been curtailed severely. Even going without ketchup.

As sophisticated as many of the sprayers are today, you could have shut the sprayer off, and maybe you would have missed as few as 4 rows and the few feet before and after the beginning and the end of the sweet corn.


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## luckydozenfarm

8433jeff said:


> I don't know much about Bt and GMO's, but the rest of the world is not going along with us (the US) on this stuff. Its wonderful, and the cheapest, easiest way to go as far as weeds. But if there isn't any honey bees, it won't matter how clean the rows are. Just recently Japan has banned rice imports from here because some GMO was mixed in. One of the by products of RoundupReady crops is glyphosate resistant coca and pot plants.
> 
> As far as cultivating goes, many have done it to break up the capillary action of the soil to save moisture, and the hillers or ridgebuilders do the same.
> 
> Can't say I have an aversion to eating good sweet corn, but the high fructose corn syrup intake has been curtailed severely. Even going without ketchup.
> 
> As sophisticated as many of the sprayers are today, you could have shut the sprayer off, and maybe you would have missed as few as 4 rows and the few feet before and after the beginning and the end of the sweet corn.





Are you saying that the ground gets wetter when you cultivate?


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## 8433jeff

luckydozenfarm said:


> Are you saying that the ground gets wetter when you cultivate?



Many an old timer will tell you you save more moisture that way. I tend to agree. Of course, its to what degree you mix the soil up-if you go 6" deep, you will have 6" of dry dirt (and be a moron).

And if the next rain runs off the crust instead of soaks in, how much did you "save"?


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## luckydozenfarm

8433jeff said:


> I don't know much about Bt and GMO's, but the rest of the world is not going along with us (the US) on this stuff. Its wonderful, and the cheapest, easiest way to go as far as weeds. But if there isn't any honey bees, it won't matter how clean the rows are. Just recently Japan has banned rice imports from here because some GMO was mixed in. One of the by products of RoundupReady crops is glyphosate resistant coca and pot plants.
> 
> As far as cultivating goes, many have done it to break up the capillary action of the soil to save moisture, and the hillers or ridgebuilders do the same.
> 
> Can't say I have an aversion to eating good sweet corn, but the high fructose corn syrup intake has been curtailed severely. Even going without ketchup.
> 
> As sophisticated as many of the sprayers are today, you could have shut the sprayer off, and maybe you would have missed as few as 4 rows and the few feet before and after the beginning and the end of the sweet corn.



The reason why people aren't going along with us is b/c people are scared and completely ignorant on the subject. Most, if not all, the average layperson knows about GMO's they got it off the internet. As we've all seen the State Farm commercials about the girl believing everything on the internet, we know that's not a best way to learn about GMO's. There are sites out there i.e., Mother Earth News, Huffington Post, etc that will blame GMO's for everything under the sun. Listen, hundreds of studies have been done, over and over again, trying to find out if GMO's are harmful in any way. Studies have even been done by anti-GMO groups and were proven as safe as the control group. The science behind genetics is right up there with astrophysics and molecular biology. It's not high school level biology class...Admittedly, GMO's are relatively new (corn in 1996), and like a previous poster commented how electricity wasn't accepted right away, we can expect the same here. 

In this post for example, the writer says he doesn't know a lot about Bt or GMO's. Yet his comments about bee colony collapse would suggest that GMO's were responsible. I guess he didn't hear that the Varroa mite was proven to be the carrier of the virus that causes Colony Collapse Disorder and not GMO's as they had been blamed before.

Also, Japan isn't banning imported rice, it's wheat after it showed up in a US farm recently. And as for resistant coca plants and pot plants...well I'm not sure where he was going with that. 

My point is, all these rumors keep getting paraded around as gospel, when there isn't a lick of truth to any of it.


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## 8433jeff

luckydozenfarm said:


> The reason why people aren't going along with us is b/c people are scared and completely ignorant on the subject. Most, if not all, the average layperson knows about GMO's they got it off the internet. As we've all seen the State Farm commercials about the girl believing everything on the internet, we know that's not a best way to learn about GMO's. There are sites out there i.e., Mother Earth News, Huffington Post, etc that will blame GMO's for everything under the sun. Listen, hundreds of studies have been done, over and over again, trying to find out if GMO's are harmful in any way. Studies have even been done by anti-GMO groups and were proven as safe as the control group. The science behind genetics is right up there with astrophysics and molecular biology. It's not high school level biology class...Admittedly, GMO's are relatively new (corn in 1996), and like a previous poster commented how electricity wasn't accepted right away, we can expect the same here.
> 
> In this post for example, the writer says he doesn't know a lot about Bt or GMO's. Yet his comments about bee colony collapse would suggest that GMO's were responsible. I guess he didn't hear that the Varroa mite was proven to be the carrier of the virus that causes Colony Collapse Disorder and not GMO's as they had been blamed before.
> 
> Also, Japan isn't banning imported rice, it's wheat after it showed up in a US farm recently. And as for resistant coca plants and pot plants...well I'm not sure where he was going with that.
> 
> My point is, all these rumors keep getting paraded around as gospel, when there isn't a lick of truth to any of it.



Yes, GMO wheat, not rice. Heard and know much about the Varroa mite. Varroa mites have been around for many years, yet now the bees seem more susceptible to them. Why?

Where I was going with the other resistant plants is that there are going to be many side effects not known or even looked for, because we don't know what they are or will be. No doubt a cartel or two got the jump on a scientist or biologist and coerced them. So now what happens, and whats next? 

If BP/Exxon and Shell started running out every other oil company, farmers and others would be upset, yet Monsanto and Syngenta seem to be doing that, and have our governments permission.

Agent Orange was a great thing. So was (and actually still is) DDT. Both had been tested and found safe, both did a great job, and both were found to be the cause of something harmful not related to the job each did later.

I am not condemning GMO's, but the record is clear so far. The US will be the only place they are used for some time, and this will be either a great thing or an impending disaster. I know I don't know which.

I do know Monsanto makes money either way. And excluding them from fault in a court of law is ignorant.


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## Genius.

8433jeff said:


> Many an old timer will tell you you save more moisture that way. I tend to agree. Of course, its to what degree you mix the soil up-if you go 6" deep, you will have 6" of dry dirt (and be a moron).
> 
> And if the next rain runs off the crust instead of soaks in, how much did you "save"?



Actually, with no-til, we are able to keep moisture in the ground better and longer than conventional guys.

Our soil is loaded with worms, and fungal residue, so it's not hard packed at all, so rain gets into the ground, but the crust on top keeps the moisture in the ground too.


When our corn is over 8" tall we go through and side dress it with 28%. Our side dresser has knives like a anhydrous applicator, just a slit and the 28% gets squirted down.


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## farmer steve

luckydozenfarm said:


> Are you saying that the ground gets wetter when you cultivate?



hey LD,dad 83yrs.old always told me to cultivate if if got dry. i was skeptical till i tried it. his theory was to loosen the ground so that any moisture in the sub soil would try to evaporate and be captured by the corn roots.by dang i think he's right.only time i didn't have good corn was when it got to hot an killed the silk before pollination.it may depend on your soil type if this will work in any given situation.


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## Genius.

farmer steve said:


> hey LD,dad 83yrs.old always told me to cultivate if if got dry. i was skeptical till i tried it. his theory was to loosen the ground so that any moisture in the sub soil would try to evaporate and be captured by the corn roots.by dang i think he's right.only time i didn't have good corn was when it got to hot an killed the silk before pollination.it may depend on your soil type if this will work in any given situation.



It's our observation that when cultivating and loosening the soil up it exposes the moisture in the soil to the air and it evaporates before the crops can use it. But, in our fields we have 5 years of stalk, stubble ect laying in the fields and that layer helps keep moisture in too.


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## 8433jeff

farmer steve said:


> hey LD,dad 83yrs.old always told me to cultivate if if got dry. i was skeptical till i tried it. his theory was to loosen the ground so that any moisture in the sub soil would try to evaporate and be captured by the corn roots.by dang i think he's right.only time i didn't have good corn was when it got to hot an killed the silk before pollination.*it may depend on your soil type if this will work in any given situation.*



+1


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## farmer steve

Del_ said:


> I can't say I've seen many farmers let weeds get so far out of hand. Looks like bad farming practices.



i've probably forgot more about farming than most people will ever know or think they know.


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## Gologit

opcorn:


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## farmer steve

Gologit said:


> opcorn:



ditto


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## luckydozenfarm

About cultivating and moisture loss..I'm sure it must have a lot to do with soil type. We have extremely sandy soil here that compacts heavily and when its is loosened with a 6" cultivator shovel, but not a ripper point, you will dry out the soil to talcum powder within a day. Of course you're not using a ripper point to cultivate weeds, that would only piss them off. Starting in July, here in our part of the country its all about moisture conservation and you wouldn't think of breaking open your soil to the air. But then again, by July the corn is drying down anyway. Today it is 97 degrees, bright sun, and a steady wind. 

If I am going to plant a final crop of sweet corn in September to harvest in late November I am going to have to be mindful of soil moisture. Sometimes we get a tropical storm or a hurricane and brings us rain then it's a no-brainer, but usually its still dusty dry in late August.


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## lone wolf

If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny. -- Thomas Jefferson


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## hanniedog

Gotta love it . The farm has a few laying hens(60) used to sell the local flea market eggs for thier breakfasts they put on.. Not now the local health dept nazis say they can only use commercially produced eggs. I forsee not being able to sell farm fresh eggs at all.


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## Dalmatian90

Health Departments ... we're from the Government and here to help you.

They do do some good things (they do come up with interesting stories from the vendors who drift through the various fairs in our area); but other times they can't see healthy for the rule book.

Fortunately we can buy local backyard / small farm eggs and raw milk (both farm and retail) here still.

Though for the firehouse chicken barbecue, the foil-wrapped baked potatoes must be baked in a commercial kitchen because, you know...home stoves aren't inspected


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## Marco

The only time in my life I have had bacon wrapped tenderloin is when the hog farmer got it in from the food pantry hub and couldn't feed it and I headed it off before the mink farm. Yet the food pantries cry for more, 15 ton of taters with a soft one in the bag, gone. I am all up and all done with hungry people when I can eat off the hog farm truck from second harvest.


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