# Pignut Hickory for Interior Barn Posts?



## WSJchester (Aug 26, 2010)

Any downside to using 1-year seasoned pignut hickory for vertical posts to shore up old barn?

I'll square them up with a Granberg mini mill and set the base in concrete (in 5-gal buckets for sonotube substitutes). I was going to locatea couple suitable white oaks but I hate to cut the relatively few I have for this, and I've got tons of hickory, both shagbark and pignut.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks. -WSJ


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## qbilder (Aug 26, 2010)

Good question. I'd be interested in knowing, too. When I was a kid helping out on the local farms, we always used large locust trees as corner posts because they wouldn't rot. Don't know much about hickory's resistance to rot. It's certainly strong enough.


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## Sawyer Rob (Aug 26, 2010)

Not a problem as for a hickory post, but you shouldn't set the hickory on the sono/cement or it WILL rot... I'd set it on a pad of PT lumber that's sitting on the cement. The post MUST be up off the ground, and not have water splashing onto it.

Around here the sono has to go below frost line, and that means 4' in the ground, so buckets wouldn't work.

Rob


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## mtngun (Aug 26, 2010)

Conventional wisdom is that hickory rots easily, so I'd be concerned about planting it in concrete.

You easterners with your surplus hickory -- I wish I could trade you for some douglas fir.


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## WSJchester (Aug 26, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Not a problem as for a hickory post, but you shouldn't set the hickory on the sono/cement or it WILL rot... I'd set it on a pad of PT lumber that's sitting on the cement. The post MUST be up off the ground, and not have water splashing onto it.
> 
> Around here the sono has to go below frost line, and that means 4' in the ground, so buckets wouldn't work.



Yep, I know they'll rot in contact with the concrete and weather and that the usual is to set them below frost (3+ feet here), but these will be inside the barn and not exposed to weather at all. And the rest of the barn is not on a footer or piles below frost, just on field stone and hemlock and some newer concrete, and the whole thing is sitting on the ground surface and has been for 100+ years. Which of course explains some lean! I want to provide some vertical and (limited) horizontal support with the shallowly set posts.

I've got a lot of black locust and would have considered using them but they're either too small (probably square nicely to 4x4 size) or old giant ones that are full of miscellaneous nails, chain, horseshoes, bits of old farm equipment, etc. A couple years will have me lots of 12" dbh locusts but I'm afraid the barn could go in the meantime.

-Scott


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## WSJchester (Aug 26, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Conventional wisdom is that hickory rots easily, so I'd be concerned about planting it in concrete.
> 
> You easterners with your surplus hickory -- I wish I could trade you for some douglas fir.



Weeds, I tell you! Hickory and black walnut are almost as bad as the black locust and a man could go to his grave just trying to keep up with them!

Seriously, hickory does rot away quickly when it's dead or ben cut if left out in the weather. Always surprised me for as hard as it is. But with the bark off, dry and in a dry environment it seems to last forever even if the bugs do make a few holes in it in the first few years. There are even rafters and floor joists in the barn of hickory, with bark left on, that were hand fitted into the main hemlock cross beams when it was built originally, I assume. that are still holding up the hayloft.

Maybe I'll plant some treated 2x6's vertically in the concrete and just set the hickory posts on a PT plate on top of the concrete as Rob suggested and anchor them to the 2x6's. I hate PT wood in general and hate even moring having to buy special screws, nails, etc., to deal with it. -Scott


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## smokinj (Aug 26, 2010)

I would not be affarid to use it!


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## betterbuilt (Aug 26, 2010)

I'd use black walnut before hickory and locust before the walnut. I'd have to be pretty desperate to use hickory. Check craigslist there is always someone trying to get rid of a few trees. 

Why not use the locust in the round? Its a lot stronger in the round. I use it in the round all the time. 

Where in livingston county are you? I'm on Keuka, lake.

I usually use white oak or locust in any of the barns I'm lifting or repairing. My favorite is Locust.


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## Sawyer Rob (Aug 26, 2010)

Keep in mind, flat lumber like 2x4's and 6's are not treated for in ground use, as flat lumber is treated to .40... But, square stock like 4x4's, 6's ect. are treated to .60 for in ground use.

SR


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## WSJchester (Aug 26, 2010)

betterbuilt said:


> I'd use black walnut before hickory and locust before the walnut. I'd have to be pretty desperate to use hickory. Check craigslist there is always someone trying to get rid of a few trees.
> 
> Why not use the locust in the round? Its a lot stronger in the round. I use it in the round all the time.
> 
> ...



I'm in Conesus, on the hill between Conesus Lake and Hemlock Lake.

What diameter round locust do you typically use? I read your post and went out this evening and can find a bunch of ~10" dbh (bark on) locust but wonder how those would compare to 6x6 hickory when used under roof? Do you peel the bark or just wait 'til next year when it falls away? Do you still separate it from a concrete footing?

As for walnut, there are tons of them here but mostly scrappy fence row and old field form - lots of branches and crown but not much trunk. The few that are decent look too much like saw logs to think about using for barn supports.

Thanks. -Scott


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## betterbuilt (Aug 27, 2010)

WSJchester said:


> I'm in Conesus, on the hill between Conesus Lake and Hemlock Lake.
> 
> What diameter round locust do you typically use? I read your post and went out this evening and can find a bunch of ~10" dbh (bark on) locust but wonder how those would compare to 6x6 hickory when used under roof? Do you peel the bark or just wait 'til next year when it falls away? Do you still separate it from a concrete footing?
> 
> ...




I used to have a book that was written for Canadian code that had the the load calculations for round verses square and the round was stronger than you would think. I don't have it anymore or I would look it up for you.

Its always easier to peel in the fresh cut locust in the spring. It seems to fall off. I would peel the bark off on what ever I used. 

The little I have used hickory for barns has always been a mistake. Hickory around here seems to get powderpost beetles pretty bad. So if I ever have any hickory logs laying around for to long they usually end up as firewood. 

Does your soil drain or do you have a lot of water standing on top of the soil? Another thing when it rains is the water going around your building or right threw it? Do you have any livestock that are gonna be in the barn? what kind of soil would you say you had?

I don't know much about your barn but every barn requires a different way to attach it the post to the ground. I've done sonotubes and other ways with concrete forms. Basically I wouldn't recommend concreting in any type of post if you want them to last for a while. You have to do whats best for your situation. I've had good luck by using pyramid shaped posts. I make a form with plywood or what ever I have laying around. Make sure the bottom of the hole is below the frost line and the top is above grade, and fill them with concrete. I use any old steel in the concrete to help reinforce the concrete. I generally make the bottom about 18-24" square, tapering up to about 10" square on top. By making pyramid shaped forms, when the ground freezes and lifts it will lift away from the post. I usually use premade brackets for the top of the pier to connect the post. I got the idea from a barn that was built in the 1860's and still looks really true.


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## WSJchester (Aug 28, 2010)

Betterbuilt, You're working on a whole different level than me!

But the pyramid support idea is pretty amazing. I confess I never heard of it before (and had to think a minute) but what a way to do it.

My barn is the horse barn and shed remnant of what was originally the usual VERY large dairy farm/barn. The big barn went away 10 or 15 years ago before we bought the place and I'm just working on the 'little' barn. It's still built with 10" & 12" hemlock beam's hand hewn and moritsed and pinned with (I think) hickory. But it's been bastardized and cobbled onto so many times that I'm just trying to arrest the decay/lean/sinking as best I can.

Soils here drain well and the barn is not suffering from groundwater. It does show lots of evidence of surface & roof runoff related problems. I think I've got that sorted out with gutters,grading, and butt-load of roof work.. And there were livestock in and out of it in every direction at some point it the past but I have no plans for critters in it and want only to keep it upright and dry inside and out.

I took you're advice and consigned the hickory to the firewood pile and went and cut some locust today, despite its being a bit slender. And the lumber yard guy gave me a good idea for setting posts: Forget about concrete, just set them on stone or gravel and then fill the rest of the hole with gravel, then tamp it. Gravel will drain and hold less water then concrete. And it's cheaper. I am still sticking to the plan to keep everything above the frost. Although maybe not perfect, it's going to outlive me and I just can't see doing the footings/piles you describe. -WSJ


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## betterbuilt (Aug 28, 2010)

If you think my footing are a little over kill. I'm working on an addition on an old farm house and the footings are four foot wide at the base and two foot at the top. I was amazed to see how well they have held up. The old timers had that right.


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## brisawyer (Aug 29, 2010)

I would not use the Hickory because of the powder post beetle its thier favorite.


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## Sawyer Rob (Aug 29, 2010)

Those pyramids are common around here. You can even buy them already pre cast in different sizes, so check around to see if you can buy them there too.

As for Hickory and beetles, cut the tree, mill the log right away, and put the beam/post/lumber UP off the ground, in a dry place, and you won't have to worry about beetles.

Rob


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## lone wolf (Aug 29, 2010)

http://web.utk.edu/~tfpc/publicat/decay.htm look here for a chart on rot resistant wood to use.


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## WSJchester (Aug 29, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> http://web.utk.edu/~tfpc/publicat/decay.htm look here for a chart on rot resistant wood to use.



Cool. Thanks. -Scott


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## WSJchester (Aug 29, 2010)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Those pyramids are common around here. You can even buy them already pre cast in different sizes, so check around to see if you can buy them there too.
> 
> As for Hickory and beetles, cut the tree, mill the log right away, and put the beam/post/lumber UP off the ground, in a dry place, and you won't have to worry about beetles.
> 
> Rob



Well that explains why the hickory floor joists for the loft and the rafters are still OK. And I guess it lets out hickory for my original purpose.

Going with the black locust. Cut one tree this morning and got 2 barn posts, a bluebird house post, and a garden electric fence post plus a nice brushpile for the blackberries to climb over next spring. And nothing else to do with a saw except square the butt end. And peel bark. Sigh.

I had visions of nicely cut square posts and now they'll be more like oversized fenceposts. But the roof probably won't fall in next winter, which was the point. Thanks gentlemen. -WSJ


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