# Gas for milling?



## denger (Sep 23, 2022)

I keep reading here that people use synthetic/engineered gas (TruFuel and such) for milling. I understand that using regular gas from a pump in the US is a bad idea because of ethanol and how it separates quickly. But can I use ethanol-free gas? I can get ethanol-free in my area in marina's where it's sold for boats. Synthetic gas is just too expensive.
P.S. I use Stihl MS-660.


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## GenXer (Sep 23, 2022)

Ethanol free high test works fine.


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## buzz sawyer (Sep 23, 2022)

Rec 90 is fine. That is what is normally sold at marinas. Ethanol free, 90 octane.


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## Ethobling (Sep 23, 2022)

I run 89 ("Plus") Octane E-free gas with a 40:1 mix with my 462, whether milling or not. If they had 91 E-free, I'd probably run that.

I get the option to buy E-free gas at my local gas station, so that's nice, especially for my '83 F100.


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## sean donato (Sep 23, 2022)

I run regular pump hi test in everything, only time I worry about getting e-free gas is if it's going to sit for any amount of time. The saw will run just fine on pump gas. The sitting for months without use is what gets you in trouble. Unless it's going to sit, there's no real benefit, besides making your wallet lighter.


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## RpR (Sep 23, 2022)

Forestnet



*Is Ethanol the Problem? 
An informal survey of a dozen northwest Oregon saw shops revealed that all the shops had noticed fuel line and carburetor diaphragm issues related to ethanol. About half of the shops reported experiencing saw engine failures and suspected ethanol as the culprit.

Over the next few weeks, I sought out industry experts to try to separate myths from facts. The following information is a summation of interviews with Randy Scully, STIHL Inc. product service manager, James McNew, vice president technical affairs Outdoor Power Equipment Institute (OPEI), and Robert Reynolds, president of Downstream Alternatives, a fuels consulting company. All agreed that ethanol impacts chainsaw engine operation.*


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## Mad Professor (Sep 23, 2022)

I've milled a lot with a 066 using E-free pump premium.


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## j-jock (Sep 24, 2022)

In addition to your comment, I haven't used my Alaska mill in awhile, but I ran a double 2100 bar on my mill, and the only gas available for awhile, was E85. I was really worried about having that fuel sitting in my equipment, or for that matter, even sitting in my fuel container. 
My solution was, to add Amsoil fuel stabilizer to the mixed fuel, and that solved the problem. It stabilized the fuel well enough, that I used the fuel up long before it went bad and the water separated out.
I now have access to 90 octane marked gas (no ethanol), and I find that the fuel stays fresh much longer by using the stabilizer. 
BTW: I ran my saws on the 100:1 Amsoil Sabre Two Cycle oil, and after using the saws for 10 years, I got an offer I couldn't refuse for the saws and bar. I got lonely, and replaced that setup with another pair of 2100s. I love those orange beasts.


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## sand sock (Sep 24, 2022)

Never had a problem. Never had a problem. Never had a problem with normal pump gas. Fuel lines go bad and you have to change them . That's a $10. 30 minutes job. 

I tried 1can of the true fuel 50:1 and that scares me. It has no color. Where is the oil? I wouldn't let the saw shop just dump gas mix in the saw. Unless he could tell me. Who mixed it up. Mix needs to be exact or just short on the gas.


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## j-jock (Sep 24, 2022)

I would call replacing fuel lines, (as well as carb work on older saws) normal maintenance. and I have changed more fuel lines because of what the former owners of some of my saws have used, or how the saws were stored, than I have had to change on my own equipment. 
Some of the saws I have purchased, are over 60 years old, so it isn't difficult to imagine that the fuel lines can require replacing. 
One of the most common problems I have with the saws I buy, is carbon build up in the cylinder, as well as in the exhaust port. To my mind, that carbon build up, and overheating caused by running saws too lean, are the two major killers of saws. ( Scoring of the piston on the exhaust side, (with no scoring on the intake side), is the sure indicator of excessive carbon build up.


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## cookies (Sep 24, 2022)

87 octane is all thats required.


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## JRM (Sep 24, 2022)

Stihl recommends 89 octane in their power Saws.


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## ericm979 (Sep 24, 2022)

89 octrane E10 will be fine. The only potential problem is phase separation. If you use your fuel within a couple months it'll be fine. I put fuel stabilizer in mine and I have used fuel four-six months old without problem. If E0 is easy to get and does not cost much more, then use it but if it's not, E10 will be fine if you use it up relatively soon. The closest place to me to get E0 is over an hour away and it's a couple dollars a gallon more. I have used E10 for decades with no problems.

Since you're milling you will want to tune your carb rich for extra cooling. And run good quality synthetic oil, possibly at a richer oil ratio than normal.


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## andy at clover (Sep 24, 2022)

.
If I could afford to run Tru-Fuel For everything I would….the exhaust gas is much less irritating to be around than gasoline.
That said, We run E free for most stuff as it’s much much cheaper than tru-fuel and we sometimes burn a lot of fuel!


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## j-jock (Sep 24, 2022)

ericm979 said:


> 89 octrane E10 will be fine. The only potential problem is phase separation. If you use your fuel within a couple months it'll be fine. I put fuel stabilizer in mine and I have used fuel four-six months old without problem. If E0 is easy to get and does not cost much more, then use it but if it's not, E10 will be fine if you use it up relatively soon. The closest place to me to get E0 is over an hour away and it's a couple dollars a gallon more. I have used E10 for decades with no problems.
> 
> Since you're milling you will want to tune your carb rich for extra cooling. And run good quality synthetic oil, possibly at a richer oil ratio than normal.


Another option that is available, is if you live near an airport where avgas is sold, you can buy the gas labeled as 100 low lead. I have not really kept up on how avgas is formulated, but the specifications are standardized, and in my experience as a private pilot, it was considerably more stable than automotive fuel. 
At the time I was still an active pilot, none of the aviation gas contained ethanol. I can't say whether that has changed or not. Where I live, on Vancouver Island, the marked gas is 89 octane, and it does not contain ethanol.


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## sean donato (Sep 24, 2022)

j-jock said:


> Another option that is available, is if you live near an airport where avgas is sold, you can buy the gas labeled as 100 low lead. I have not really kept up on how avgas is formulated, but the specifications are standardized, and in my experience as a private pilot, it was considerably more stable than automotive fuel.
> At the time I was still an active pilot, none of the aviation gas contained ethanol. I can't say whether that has changed or not. Where I live, on Vancouver Island, the marked gas is 89 octane, and it does not contain ethanol.


It's alkylate fuel like aspen or Tru fuel. Just has the bonus of having lead in it.


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## BobL (Sep 24, 2022)

It depends what I'm doing. 

If I'm buying gas I'm going to use within a week or so I buy regular gas. If It's going to sit around for a few months I buy premium (higher octane) gas. The reason for this is, as soon as its made, gas starts to slowly lose its octane rating depending on things like temperature and exposure to air.. Gas that sits around in a mostly empty can in a hot environment will suffer more. In my home shop where the gas is store it can get to over 50ºC in summer for many days in a row. 

There's also a theory that putting new gas in a can with some old gas in it can make the new gas go off faster - dumb how our that is in practice.
I used to put old mix in my old petrol powered van and top it up with fresh gas but that was long ago and now we have two diesel vehicles so that no longer an option. Now I usually dump it into my "evaporator" a open plastic container exposed to air. Evaporate it down and put teh residual into my waste oil container.


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## lohan808 (Sep 24, 2022)

I am lucky to have a couple of stations that sell E free gas at 90 octane. Still has detergents, but it does keep muh saws clean. I run amsoil dominator at 40:1 in my ms 660, 362c ported, and an echo 355T. Also in backpack blower br350 and 131r kombi. No problems here.


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## Bubster (Sep 24, 2022)

My calculations came up with Stihl brand canned gas coming in around $31 a gallon. I can buy non-ethanol gas here for around $4.81/gallon. Add in the 2 cycle oil I can mix over 5 gallons for what they want for 1. In my personal experience,saws do run cooler on 91 octane or better, and starting in cold weather is easier. As for non E ,I can't say the saw runs any better on it, but at least the gas don't smell dead after sitting for just a week.


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## j-jock (Sep 24, 2022)

Bubster said:


> My calculations came up with Stihl brand canned gas coming in around $31 a gallon. I can buy non-ethanol gas here for around $4.81/gallon. Add in the 2 cycle oil I can mix over 5 gallons for what they want for 1. In my personal experience,saws do run cooler on 91 octane or better, and starting in cold weather is easier. As for non E ,I can't say the saw runs any better on it, but at least the gas don't smell dead after sitting for just a week.


Depending on whether you live in a place where you have real winters or not. To accommodate the cold winter weather, the fuel companies do change gasoline to a winter formulation, which is more volatile for easier starting. 








How refineries make fuels right for winter driving - Canadian Fuels Association


As Canadians head to the pumps this winter, they can rest assured that the fuels they put in their vehicles will stand up well to cold-weather driving. Do most people realize that their winter fuels are very different from summer fuels? Probably not, says Dave Schick, manager of policy...




www.canadianfuels.ca


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Sep 25, 2022)

There's more of a benefit than just the lack of phase separation with E0. At a given jet / mixture screw setting, E0 runs richer, cooler, makes more power, and gives more bang per gallon. Ethanol belongs in beer and liquor.


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## sand sock (Sep 25, 2022)

j-jock said:


> One of the most common problems I have with the saws I buy, is carbon build up in the cylinder, as well as in the exhaust port. To my mind, that carbon build up, and overheating caused by running saws too lean, are the two major killers of saws. ( Scoring of the piston on the exhaust side, (with no scoring on the intake side), is the sure indicator of excessive carbon build up.




my stihls i have had. i have never had aproblem with carbon build up. but they normally dont have spark arrestors either, so they can breathe. i have always run 89 octane and mostly stihl 50:1 oil. but on a 2.5 gal mix. i try to shut teh pump off at 2.49 gallons. then rinse the container out. we have always had ethanol gas around here. i have had a couple 290s that never had a fuel line changed and then some years. i had to change the fuel lineon the 361. i think they have changed the rubber formula, back and forth looking for a cheaper part. i dont know on my husky. but i plan to watch a lot of utube. to figure that new saw out/


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## ericm979 (Sep 25, 2022)

j-jock said:


> Another option that is available, is if you live near an airport where avgas is sold, you can buy the gas labeled as 100 low lead. I have not really kept up on how avgas is formulated, but the specifications are standardized, and in my experience as a private pilot, it was considerably more stable than automotive fuel.
> At the time I was still an active pilot, none of the aviation gas contained ethanol. I can't say whether that has changed or not. Where I live, on Vancouver Island, the marked gas is 89 octane, and it does not contain ethanol.


"low lead" av gas still has a lot of lead in it. If's only low in comparison with older even more leaded av gas. Running a saw you'll be breathing a lot of exhaust and thus a lot of lead.

It's also expensive compared to regular car gas and you have to travel to an airport with a fuel station that will let you put fuel into something that's not an airplane.


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## ericm979 (Sep 25, 2022)

j-jock said:


> Depending on whether you live in a place where you have real winters or not. To accommodate the cold winter weather, the fuel companies do change gasoline to a winter formulation, which is more volatile for easier starting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They do summer and winter gas in California too. Parts of California have "real" winter- look up the Donner party- but the most populated parts have mild winters. They all get winter gas though.


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## j-jock (Sep 26, 2022)

ericm979 said:


> They do summer and winter gas in California too. Parts of California have "real" winter- look up the Donner party- but the most populated parts have mild winters. They all get winter gas though.


 yeah, I have been in the wintery parts of California.


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## j-jock (Sep 26, 2022)

Off topic, but whatever...
After reading your posting, I got to thinking about some of the bad things that happened to me in California, it reminded me of a day in 1976, when I was doing a takeoff out of the Truckee airport, and swallowed a bird (turboprop), which caused one of the engines to fail. I had so little power available on the remaining engine, that I couldn't climb, raise the gear, or turn back. I had to fly down the valley until I got to Lake Tahoe, and by then I had gained enough altitude to clean up the aircraft and slowly climb to an altitude that would guarantee me the ability to glide to a smooth field on the far side of the mountains if the other engine failed. 
I couldn't get the damaged engine running, but was able to make it to Oakland. (The reason I couldn't raise the gear right away, was that the extension of the gear doors would have caused more drag and put me in the trees).
I was stuck in Oakland for a week while the engine was changed, and decided to see my favourite football team, the Oakland Raiders. At the time (1976), they were undefeated, and were playing Colorado, the last place team in the league. The Raiders lost, and played so poorly, that i would bet half the people in the stadium were ready to commit sidways, and the other half were so mad that they wanted to find a small person and beat him.


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## Rodhaven (Oct 9, 2022)

I"m running a Stihl 660 with non ethanol 90 octane fuel mixed with Stihl oil at 40:1. Its been working good. I also added a Maxflow air filter which works better than the stock filter.


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## B.Lee (Oct 20, 2022)

Ethanol Free pump gas is all I have used and it has worked great.


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## Marine5068 (Oct 22, 2022)

j-jock said:


> Depending on whether you live in a place where you have real winters or not. To accommodate the cold winter weather, the fuel companies do change gasoline to a winter formulation, which is more volatile for easier starting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes they do.
I know this for sure living in Ontario. 
Our Winters can be brutally cold down to -40 C or lower as well our Summers get as hot as +40 C or higher.
It can also get very humid here with over 100,000 lakes and rivers.
That's a huge range in temperature and humidity not found in many places.
Lots of different places have their weather challenges as well, that's why planning your cutting time is important for your own health mainly.


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## Lightning Performance (Dec 3, 2022)

Long bender here so....

Running 89 pump gas E10 in a ported 660 over here with machine work and a large ignition timing advance has shown no adverse signs of anything milling with it. This saw is under 200 psi because it pulls a 60" on occasions but not in over 42" of hardwoods like oak. The big stuff gets the biggest saws. Running 91 did nothing for power in 95*F heat so I went back to running 89. Ran 87 one day in 98* heat and it started to pop just bit so now I know where the fuel becomes an issue. I found no advantages to running 90 E free boat fuel. I will say it last much longer, maybe not as long as Av gas but, the storage over winter for the parked tools was worth it and peice of mind. Storing long term, over six months, I use Av gas with VP mix oil. That oil has more fuel stabilizers in it ;-)

I HATE fuel stabilizers in gas or oil because they give me bad headaches in short order. This big debate about E10 being so bad appears to be a non issue after years of running it. Storage over the long tern is highly NOT recommended for all the reasons we all ready know about. It appears some people some time ago were running more than E10 maybe E20 or more, idk and have rubber line desegregation issues. Cheap lines die faster, fact. Never had a fuel line issue but running E10 with certain black plastic caps on Poulan saws will make the plastic swell some and jam the cap threads. Grinding off the threads to half the amount or one round around is fine or stop running E fuel and dry the plastic in the sun. Everything returns to normal in my experiences. The worse part is trying to store E10 in anything but a completely sealed container in the dark. Sunlight does degrade any fuel quickly so running more octane knowing you're going to have losses of the light ends warrants using a bit more octane when you fuel up your plastic cans that do bleed through sunlight or get used in direct sunlight all day long. Keeping any containers in a cool dry place always makes fuel like gasoline last much longer. I know from decades of race cars and street rods among other toys or tools. Ethanol is only used to boost octane levels in place of more toxic additives I won't get into here. Not to be confused with methanol!

Running 93 is highly recommended if your going to store fuel long term or run over 200 psi of static compression. Running it in a stock saw seems to add or take away nothing. Running high octane levels in a highly modified unit to get a cleaner burn might be worth the time but I use very good mix oil so carbon buildup is never an issue. Pinging or detonation has never been an issue. Running regular 87 you have a useful life if stored properly of about two or four weeks. I will say that most stock chainsaws will run just fine on old dead pump gas with no water in it but are slightly down on power. My fuel tanks do accumulate water short term within days filled with E10 during spring and fall weather. It's very humid here with big temperature swings daily so siphoning out the water is highly recommended if you do plan to run off an old tank of pump gas left stored in your tools. Dumping it out does not get rid of the water most times in your fuel tank. Drying out the tank is really the only way to get the water out or siphon the tank from the bottom. The water will ALWAYS be laying in the bottom just like a boat fuel tank does. It's just a smaller tank working on the same principles. Starting it up from sitting like that feeds separated mix with heavy water deposits right to your carb. I've had one scored piston from doing just that about ten years ago. Picked up the saw that sat for three weeks in the spring and it ran too good in the first cut and cut two the power faded quickly so it got parked until the tear down. It was definitely run lean under those polluted conditions with a water soaked fuel tank and lightly scored the piston and probably hung the top ring when it got hot and pinched it. Everything was fine but light scoring on the exhaust side.

Last spring in March I siphoned out eight chainsaws stored on winter fuel E10 for about five months. The Stihl flippy cap fuel tanks gave up about four ounces of water after it settled down in a glass jar overnight. The summer tests of storage on the same tools yielded little water or phase separation. It appears the humidity entering the tanks as they cycle through the temperature gradients is the big problem many never see or look for. This caused phase separation and will corrode an aluminum fuel tank just like E85 does.

In closing you just need to be aware of the issues created buy running E10 if it is not looked after closely. My dead fuel once settled out goes in my truck or a lawn mower and have had zero issues burning it. I do mix it with fresh pump high test gas like 91-93 grades here in the USA. Considering testing some E85 in a rather spicy unit sitting here begging for a serious chain on it. I expect no adverse issue other then it can not be run through standard rubber fuel hose and will take it's toll on carb parts even if only run and drained out on the same day then cleared through with E free gas.

Rant done
Saw on sawyer


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## Lightning Performance (Dec 3, 2022)

Marine5068 said:


> Yes they do.
> I know this for sure living in Ontario.
> Our Winters can be brutally cold down to -40 C or lower as well our Summers get as hot as +40 C or higher.
> It can also get very humid here with over 100,000 lakes and rivers.
> ...


We get your weather here and then some. Four seasons in twenty four hours just like New Zealand has.


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## Lightning Performance (Dec 3, 2022)

RpR said:


> Forestnet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Under what conditions?


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## Lightning Performance (Dec 3, 2022)

JRM said:


> Stihl recommends 89 octane in their power Saws.


They recommend 89 knowing it will run fine in stock trim on 85 or a bit less.


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## RpR (Dec 23, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> Under what conditions?


It was from a tech. article on-line and I did not book mark it so I cannot say where.


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## Seachaser (Jan 1, 2023)

sand sock said:


> Never had a problem. Never had a problem. Never had a problem with normal pump gas. Fuel lines go bad and you have to change them . That's a $10. 30 minutes job.
> 
> I tried 1can of the true fuel 50:1 and that scares me. It has no color. Where is the oil? I wouldn't let the saw shop just dump gas mix in the saw. Unless he could tell me. Who mixed it up. Mix needs to be exact or just short on the gas.


I’ve had major problems with it, especially in stuff you don’t run everyday.


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## sand sock (Jan 1, 2023)

Seachaser said:


> I’ve had major problems with it, especially in stuff you don’t run everyday.


I've always run Stihl brand oil usually. Last week I mixed up some husky oil. The weather temp changed and as I changed the fuel. I was able to hear my 5 series compensate. Pretty cool


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