# Climbing gear...



## MCW (Nov 5, 2010)

Hi Guys.

New to climbing and to be honest know a bit but have no real experience using the climbing gear. I am however keen and a fast learner.
I won't be swinging around in trees etc, simply climbing up trunks with harness, spikes, and flipline, then limbing and dropping piece by piece.
I have a chainsaw and tree felling business and have had to pass up just a few too many jobs lately as my experience is solely at ground level. Problem is that no matter how good you are you cannot drop a 60' tree in a 40' back yard from the ground 

Although "relatively" fit I am 6'3" and 120kg (264lbs).

I've asked an arborist supply business in Australia and the guy said that my size won't be an issue, the harnesses are able to handle that sort of weight.

I bought a second hand climbing setup off another guy with a similar business to mine. I've since found out that the harness is quite simply a "fall arrest" harness, not suitable for climbing.

I've attached some photos of the gear I got. The spikes are good, the flipline etc OK, harness good but worthless for climbing.

Question is, what else will I need to get underway? If anybody can recommend a good harness, flipline, flipline adjuster (if what I have isn't suitable?).

Price no object as I'd rather be comfortable than fall to my death 

Thanks for any help guys, appreciated.

Also, if anybody says that I shouldn't be climbing and should leave it up to qualified arborists blah blah blah I'll spit on my computer screen 



















And the harness label...

Plus a view of a similar harness...

http://www.beaver.com.au/?stm_a=77|...m_o=|&0&cat=96749349fa61af15&topcat=3156&tpi=


----------



## oscar4883 (Nov 5, 2010)

Personally I would have a very difficult time using used gear. With your own gear you are totally sure of the history. Maybe consider a climbing kit from one of are site sponsors. Not sure how bad the shipping would be for you however. Also the book Tree Climbers Companion is an excellent read. Add a good quality rope and a throwbag/throwline to one of the spur climbing kits offered. I have been climbing for 2 years and I am basically self-taught. There are some benefits and some downfalls to learning on your own. The biggest downfall is in knowing and understanding the trees themselves. What is safe and what is not. Some things that seem questionable may be reasonably safe. The biggest upside is that you will probably ot pick up someone elses bad habits.


----------



## MCW (Nov 5, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> Personally I would have a very difficult time using used gear.



I agree. That is my biggest concern. The spikes are fine, they won't kill you if something goes wrong, but I most certainly won't be using the harness. As far as shipping goes from the US we are in the best position we've ever been in. Our currencies are matched dollar for dollar so right at this minute I have about USD$4000 worth of chainsaw related gear and actual chainsaws coming in from overseas  I'm making the most of it while it lasts.

As far as reading trees goes I'm pretty up with that. Nobody can ever claim to be an expert but I have a pretty sound understanding of what can and can't be done. As I mentioned what I plan on doing is just up and down the trunk with spikes and a flipline. Nothing more than that.

The book you mentioned is a good one and I already have it on order. It was recommended to me by an arborist supply business.


----------



## oscar4883 (Nov 5, 2010)

The first thing I take of the truck is usually the bigshot and throwbag. Lets me get rigging and climbing lines set from the ground. Having a climbing line set from the get go is a safety and confidence thing when you first start IMO. Lets youget around obstacles without a second lanyard. Wirecore fliplines are nice for their flipability. However you can make your own lanyard for much less money.


----------



## MCW (Nov 5, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> The first thing I take of the truck is usually the bigshot and throwbag. Lets me get rigging and climbing lines set from the ground. Having a climbing line set from the get go is a safety and confidence thing when you first start IMO. Lets youget around obstacles without a second lanyard. Wirecore fliplines are nice for their flipability. However you can make your own lanyard for much less money.



Thanks for the reply again mate. Once this book arrives I'm sure I'll start to get a better idea of other climbing necessities


----------



## imagineero (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Matt, 
I'll throw in my bit because most of the removals I do are on rope. Take my answers with a grain of salt though because I come from an industrial access, rescue and rock climbing background... so my techniques are a little different from those used in traditional tree work.

You do need a good way of getting the rope up into the tree. The big shot is the way to go, but I couldnt justify one. A good aussie supplier of most tree climbing stuff is treegear http://www.treegear.com.au/ never have bought anything from them but have heard good things from other guys. The prices are slightly less than most other aus places. For myself, I made a big sling shot (probably illegal) out of a 3 pronged tiller style rake (cut off the centre prong), 2 heavy duty occy straps and a bit of rubber for the pouch. I use a big lead sinker (probably dangerous) and have tried 2mm cord as well as heavy fishing line to throw with. The fishing line gets tangled real fast. The cord works ok. With a bit of practice you can get the cord just about anywhere up to 30 metres or so. Beer helps with aim.

You'll want a rope. Tree guys climb on all sorts of things depending if they are traditional hitch climbers/footlockers or using mechanical devices. I never did learn to clime the old school way, but if you go that route I think large diameter rope makes life a bit easier. I climb on climbing ropes, you want static or super static (dynamic will make your ascent like a pogo action). I use 11mm because its easy and all my gear works with it. 50m ropes start at around $120 on ebay and go up to about $250/$300 for something top quality. Better quality means less core creep, less twist, and less stretch. 

I cant comment on harnesses. 

Once the rope is up in the tree you're going to want to get up there. I'm about your size, and I rig one of 2 ways depending on how far I've got to go and how hard the climb looks. Most often, I just climb the branches. It's the easiest quickest way for me. I often use a 7m ladder to get up as high as possible. I have my groundie move it once Im in the tree. I dont have spikes. If I can climb the branches I tie off one end of the rope and just use an ascender or locking cam as my safety. I clip either a microcender, a mini traxion, black diamond ascender or a croll onto about a 50cm lanyard which is attached to my harness, attach it to the rope and just climb the tree like I would if I didnt have a rope on. The device pretty much runs up the rope by itself and I never need to touch it. Often I take out branches on the way up. no probs, I just stop and drop branches, then keep climbing. 

When I get to the top, I attach a descender to the rope at my harness. This lets me unlock the microcender and descend, and if I need to work I just let go of both and the rope will hold me. If I need to go back up I take the descender back out

If it's a tough climb, no branches, freehanging, or a clock tower.... Then I hookup a 2:1. The setup I have is hard to describe, but not really complex. It needs 3x as much rope as you are going to climb, a self locking pulley, a standard pulley and an ascender of some type. 

I shoot a rope up as per normal. when I get it back down the other side, I attach a big carabiner. I attach one end of my climbing line to the biner and I also put a big pulley on the biner. the climbing line comes down, through the locking pulley (attached to my harness), back up to the pulley on the biner, then back down to ground. That's the end you pull on  I attach an ascender on a lanyard to this as well, just as a backup. You pull the whole lot up to the top of the tree with the rope you shot up there and then tie the rope off to something suitable.

Pulleys make a huge difference in friction reduction, and its worth noting that at our weight you need a pulley of about 2" or bigger to be worthwhile. It helps a lot of you use efficient pulleys with bearings. This system gives the opportunity for a lot of redundancy. With enough time, you could tie the rope and the pulley to independent anchors. 

What I usually do is get my groundie to grab one end of that line, and run like hell, while I'm also pulling on it. If you're brave or stupid you can use a car or skid for this purpose and potentially rip yourself in half. It's a lot of rope to pull through, but I'm 6'3 and 113kg myself and 37% of that is my ass. It's true that my ass is composed of raw thrusting power, but that doesnt help me get up a tree. I refuse to hump air. I can get up about 20 metres in a minute this way. 

Have attached a couple of pics. Unfortunately you cant really see much because its too far away. The line to the far side going to ground is my control rope, the line in my left hand is an independent rope going to a second independant anchor (cant be too careful!).


----------



## MCW (Nov 6, 2010)

Thanks for the lengthy reply mate 

I still don't have a clue what many of the things are you mentioned but I'm sure I'll work it out eventually  

Tree Gear is the company I contacted in regard to my current harness. Trevor is the main guy to talk to and a nice bloke. To start with I thought he was a rude prick for not getting back to me but when he did he apologise as he'd been involved with the Australian Tree Climbing Championships or something like that. I actually plan to take a drive to Melbourne soon to see him and get some gear.


----------



## imagineero (Nov 6, 2010)

no worries mate  

A good harness is a huge asset. Try to sit fully suspended in as many as you can, for as long as possible. any harness feels comfortable for 30 seconds, but once the blood supply starts getting cut off to your legs.....

You do get what you pay for. We want to go for the one with the widest straps and most amount of cushioning at our weight ;-) Don't be shy to drop some big $ on this.

The rest of the gear you'll get used to. The biggest call is whether to go trad and use knots for everything, or to go modern and use gear. Trad types talk about how they'd never trust gear etc, but i think its all just talk. I started (rock) climbing and abseiling with body belays and prusiks, I know most of my hitches and for me using mechanical devices is *way way* easier. According to test data, hitches will fail at a higher load than most mechanical devices, but for practical use this is fairly academic. Unloading most loaded hitches is a pain (except the types of hitches you cant really trust!) so a lot of guys who use them are hesitant to load them. Anecdotal evidence suggests more user error with hitches than mechanical devices, and they are very reliant on correct setting.

Do learn your knots though, at least a couple of types of hitches and prussik knots and of course the bowline!

If you go with mechanical devices, go petzl. All their stuff works really well, but it is pricey ($100 for every shiny little bit of metal!). Use symmetrical pear shaped carabiners rather than the more common D shaped Asymetrical ones because they load better. Start out with a 'grab' type device (shunt for double rope, microcender for single) rather than a 'toothed' style device (croll, basic, mini traxion). The tooth style devices are mainly for climbing in icy/muddy areas.

It starts to add up pretty quick if you're going mechanical. You could easily drop $500+ on a harness. Say, $200 on a rope (or you might want a second rope for lowering with), a handful of carabiners $100, maybe one ascender $100 and one descender $30. Maybe a pulley, $100. 

It's good to have options when your on a rope. If you have some slings, some rope, some carabiners and one or 2 devices you can probably improvise just about anything. There are at least 4 or 5 ways of making ascenders and descenders as well as lowering off devices that way. Sure comes in handy when you drop something 

Oh yeah, hit Trevor up for a discount. I know he looks after guys on tree world, but I only lurk there, I dont really post.

Shaun


----------



## MCW (Nov 6, 2010)

Thanks again Shaun.
Yeah I realise I won't get much change from $1000. I've got a good set of spikes though so there is a few bucks saved. 
I'm a member on that other forum too but it's pretty dead and generally full of the depressive members that have been banned from here!
As much as I'd love to Australian business after seeing the difference in harness pricing from the states it will be very very difficult to go local at this stage on some items. We'll see though as I'd still rather get fitted properly


----------



## pdqdl (Nov 8, 2010)

Those spurs look like they might be lineman's spurs, which tend to be a little short sometimes. You may have trouble in trees with thick bark. Either way, the Stringer Co. went out of business many years ago, and I doubt you can get replacement spurs, although I might be wrong. They were a very popular brand around here 10 years ago. 

Stringer Co. was right across the street from my High School, so I was surprised to see those spurs in Australia. I grew up in Lee's Summit.

To answer your question: I don't think anything I have bought to climb trees in the last 25 years is as important as my throw-weights and throwline. Then I got a really cool folding cube that makes it all practical to stow. So far, I haven't seen anything in this thread about advancing your line into a tree, but it saves a bunch of work. I'll never do without it in the future, except maybe for trees without branches that can't be thrown over.

Right after rope, belt, lanyard, and saw: throw weight and throwline. Don't buy the cheap stuff, either. It doesn't glide through the tree and come back down to you. Even spurring up a removal is tons easier with a rope to help out.


----------



## flushcut (Nov 8, 2010)

MCW, I understand your desire to climb and top trees, but you might want to spend some time working with someone that has some experience to show you the ropes so to speak. There is nothing like the first time you take down a top! Giver and be safe! The right gear is paramount to your lively hood.


----------



## MCW (Nov 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Those spurs look like they might be lineman's spurs, which tend to be a little short sometimes. You may have trouble in trees with thick bark. Either way, the Stringer Co. went out of business many years ago, and I doubt you can get replacement spurs, although I might be wrong. They were a very popular brand around here 10 years ago.
> 
> Stringer Co. was right across the street from my High School, so I was surprised to see those spurs in Australia. I grew up in Lee's Summit.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply mate. From what I was told these spikes were set up for our hardwoods which I gather is why you call them Linesman spikes as they would be used for climbing power poles? Not sure where these spikes would have been purchased originally but they are still in reasonable condition. The rest of the setup has proven to be worn out. The flipline adjustor, although probably a good brand, won't hold anymore. Thanks for the info on the throw line etc. 



flushcut said:


> MCW, I understand your desire to climb and top trees, but you might want to spend some time working with someone that has some experience to show you the ropes so to speak. There is nothing like the first time you take down a top! Giver and be safe! The right gear is paramount to your lively hood.



Yeah I've been talking to Shaun (Imagineero) who has been a great help. I plan on catching up with him at some stage to get shown the ropes (no pun intended). The other benefit is that like me he's a big bloke so if he hasn't fallen out of a tree and died yet he must be doing something right  I also don't mind dropping a few bucks on good gear too. Don't want too many straps riding up where the sun don't shine!


----------



## ThePruner (Nov 9, 2010)

Yep the linesman ones are probably for straight skinny pole climbing.


----------



## Polydorus (Nov 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Those spurs look like they might be lineman's spurs, which tend to be a little short sometimes.



I don't know anything about tree climbing other than as a kids hobby.  I do know a little about pole climbing. Those are lineman's spurs. Walking with them on they will barely dig into the ground. The ones for tree work that I've seen are at least an inch longer.


----------



## MCW (Nov 9, 2010)

Polydorus said:


> I don't know anything about tree climbing other than as a kids hobby.  I do know a little about pole climbing. Those are lineman's spurs. Walking with them on they will barely dig into the ground. The ones for tree work that I've seen are at least an inch longer.



The shorter spikes like the ones pictured are fine in many of our hardwoods. They have very thin bark. They are probably a bit short for use in pine though.


----------



## arborsoldier (Nov 11, 2010)

oscar4883 said:


> The first thing I take of the truck is usually the bigshot and throwbag. Lets me get rigging and climbing lines set from the ground. Having a climbing line set from the get go is a safety and confidence thing when you first start IMO. Lets youget around obstacles without a second lanyard. Wirecore fliplines are nice for their flipability. However you can make your own lanyard for much less money.



I have to agree. It feels so much more secure to have a "top rope" while spiking up a tree. And as far as making a lanyard, that is simple. I use two carabiners a piece good quality (not an old rigging) climbing line and a friction hitch (distel or V.T.) with a micro pulley. Light weight, and with skill, I can get it tossed around some big trunks. Plus a ground guy can belay your climbing hitch while climbing, providing you are using micro pulley or similar slack tending system.:agree2:


----------



## MCW (Nov 11, 2010)

Thanks for the replies guys even though I still don't think you're speaking English  Also, money is no object as I want the best possible gear I can get. I'm no millionaire, but don't mind dropping a bit of coin on good quality gear, even if it's not 100% necessary.


----------

