# Which ascenders?



## GottaCut (Jan 24, 2008)

Which ascenders would you guys recommend for me? I'm just learning to rope climb, but I have nobody to train me and make suggestions. I've tried climbing free hand and footlocking and I can only get about 15' before my hands give out from trying to squeeze my .5" rope :bang:

Oh yeah and what about the boot "Pantin", or boot loops?

I'm sure there are alot of different preferences this should be interesting. Thanks, Jaime.


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## Adkpk (Jan 24, 2008)

No belt? No hitch? I use a blakes hitch. Ascenders are for the more gear inclined. Better to start with the basics first before spending money you might wish you hadn't later.


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## GottaCut (Jan 24, 2008)

Adrpk said:


> No belt? No hitch? I use a blakes hitch. Ascenders are for the more gear inclined. Better to start with the basics first before spending money you might wish you hadn't later.



Belt? Do you mean saddle? Yes I use a saddle. So do you squeeze the hitch and not just the rope? I can see how that would make things easier. 

Sorry for such a beginners questions guys, it almost makes me wince to ask these things, but I gotta find out somehow. Thanks


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## ronnyb (Jan 24, 2008)

If you can't find a Tech school, college, etc in your area that offers instruction on tree climbing, why don't you attend ArborMaster training before you end up in the hospital? Money well spent IMO.


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## ATH (Jan 24, 2008)

I started out with similar frustrations, so I also decided that an ascender must be the answer. I purchased a Petzl blue ascender (item #15203 at Sherrill). I used it a few times, then started climbing without it. I think developing better footlocking technique was the key for me.

I thought about getting a Pantin but did not--mostly because I didn't want to spend the money; and I thought I'd see how one extra piece helped before adding another. The ascender helped enough that I did not need the pantin. I am glad I did not get that, or I may have skipped out on learning better footlocking.

I think I can say that the ascender helped me focus more on footwork. Once I was more comfortable with that, I found the ascender to be more of a hassle than it is worth, and I no longer use it.


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## reachtreeservi (Jan 24, 2008)

GottaCut said:


> Which ascenders would you guys recommend for me? I'm just learning to rope climb, but I have nobody to train me and make suggestions. I've tried climbing free hand and footlocking and I can only get about 15' before my hands give out from trying to squeeze my .5" rope :bang:
> 
> Oh yeah and what about the boot "Pantin", or boot loops?
> 
> I'm sure there are alot of different preferences this should be interesting. Thanks, Jaime.



Go low and slow...
Or else...

Oh yeah, quit squeezing your rope. You'll go blind...


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## 046 (Jan 24, 2008)

go find someone local to watch climb... it's amazing how folks will help if you just ask. 

then immediately purchase your own copy of climbers companion 
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=17371

beware of advice given on AS. some will kill you!


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## GottaCut (Jan 24, 2008)

reachtreeservi said:


> Oh yeah, quit squeezing your rope. You'll go blind...



 You made a funny, lol


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## GottaCut (Jan 24, 2008)

I know, I know guys go low and slow. I'm not wanting to learn so I can kill myself, I want to....NEED TO, become more versatile than just using lifts or spurs.


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## GottaCut (Jan 24, 2008)

046 said:


> beware of advice given on AS. some will kill you!



Thats the truth about advice in general, you also have to apply your own common sense and when taking someone else's advice. Thanks.


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## Scots Climber (Jan 24, 2008)

Rope, rope, rope and more f*****g rope! I prefer a Blake's hitch and or Prussik knot. KISS... keep it simple stupid! I'm a mountaineer, and I have found through experience that mechanical friction hitches are ####e. I had a Ropejack and it nearly killed me, twice!!


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## Bigus Termitius (Jan 25, 2008)

Hey GottaCut,

Where at in Illinois?


I'm just starting to put together a climbing kit myself. I've got a couple mentors, one keeps it simple, one has all the toys.

Me, I plain on having all the toys, but I want to be able to climb with the basics if need be. I like options and having an arsenal of various skills and methods at my disposal.

Don't be discouraged by those that believe that you need to rush off to some school or else the hospital awaits. Not everyone needs their info spoon fed or hand held. Some do, so they think everyone else should.

And nevermind the naysayers...THIS SITE ROCKS! Plenty of good advice from the very best in the business. Period.



My mentors are both *self taught *and have been climbing around power for years. This isn't rocket science, just gotta know what you are doing and keep your head. That's tree work in general, no? Hey, that is life in general.

Get info, study hard, take your time, and get plenty of climbing in without a saw. 

That's my two cents. Just wanted to stop in and encourage and say hey and good climbing to a fellow Illinoisan.


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## GottaCut (Jan 25, 2008)

Hey Bigus, I'm from Chatham just south of Springfield. Probably not too far from you if your east central. So do you work for a company or self-employed?

Good to meetcha!


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## Sunrise Guy (Jan 25, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I use CMI ascenders in a frog configuration to srt into the tree.
> 
> I also use the pantin in a traditional climbing system if I'm doing a climb that has a lot of up and down movements involved or ascents in free air.



I'll second the use of CMI ascenders when going up in free space, without any foot contact with the tree, at all. They make a huge difference when it comes to getting up into areas not normally accessible from the main leader because of lean or dog legs. You do need to be mindful of free ascents if your rope is some distance from the main leaders, when it comes to really knowing how much weight a given branch can take. There are stories on here and other sites about guys trusting a branch to hold them and finding, after they were some ways up, that was not going to be the case. Some did not live to tell their own stories. When possible, always try to set your rope in a crotch next to the main leader(s).
CMI foot ascenders make climbing your rope very easy, once you get the hang of using them. I use a single ascender on a DdRT system, and that serves me well. Others use one or two of them on SRT ascents. Footlocking is a great skill to have, but I gave it up once my arches and the sides of my insteps started causing me great pain. Foot ascenders are far easier, and far more comfortable, for me.
If you order the CMI foot ascenders, make sure they come with the new yellow Kevlar straps and not the old, black nylon ones. The black straps get very fuzzy to the point where they won't slide through the adjustment buckles. CMI replaced my old straps, for free.


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## Mitchell (Jan 25, 2008)

*ascender*

My experience as a relatively new spurless climbing has been; I releid on my petzel ascenders completely. I don't think I have had them out of the bag in a year though. They went from my saddle to my main bag to the odds and end bag to I'm not sure were they are actually? Still, they are cheap and helped me get comfortable with climbing away from the trunk, over all a good investment.


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## fireman (Jan 25, 2008)

*ascenders*

got a cut we use cmi for our tech rescue team for fire dept.we just looked at and tried the mar bar system it is unreal use your legs.the way it works put the lower mar bar buy feet and the upper mar bar shoulder height u sit in your saddle push up with your legs at the same time u raise the upper mar bar which your saddle is tied into.the rope or strap shouldn't be much over eye height so you have control.you can use a single or double rope.if you want to descend you can use a munter hitch or use a rescue 8.the cams can be released so you can descend with the system.the system is very easy to use and is effortless i will show you when you come up.the other thing we just worked on is a new load release called a hookie release it is the cats :censored: it is used with 8 mill rope with a double munter so you have control when you release it.


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## Marty B (Jan 25, 2008)

*Don't squeeze the hitch!!!*



GottaCut said:


> Belt? Do you mean saddle? Yes I use a saddle. So do you squeeze the hitch and not just the rope? I can see how that would make things easier.
> 
> Sorry for such a beginners questions guys, it almost makes me wince to ask these things, but I gotta find out somehow. Thanks



If you get your fingers over the top of a Friction Hitch and squeeze you're goin' down Bud!!! You can go down (descend) on a Blake's Hitch but not on a prussik!! Some carry a Figure 8 to descend on after footlocking with a prussik for fall protection.


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## Scots Climber (Jan 26, 2008)

Marty B said:


> If you get your fingers over the top of a Friction Hitch and squeeze you're goin' down Bud!!! You can go down (descend) on a Blake's Hitch but not on a prussik!! Some carry a Figure 8 to descend on after footlocking with a prussik for fall protection.



I beg to differ with your comment about not being able to descend on a Prussik. I agree that a Blakes is generally better and easier to use, however to release a Prussik in order to descend, you just have to push down on top loop with your thumb. 

Just out of interest what diameter cord do you use for your Blakes and Prussik knots? If the diameter is too small they lock up very fast.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 26, 2008)

Scots Climber said:


> Just out of interest what diameter cord do you use for your Blakes and Prussik knots? If the diameter is too small they lock up very fast.



I use 3/8 stable braid for my VT, it is dy-no-mite

My ascenders are CMI MarBars. I like the pullup position it gives. I only use the uppers, since I can footlock. The lowers do not self-tail very well until you get a bit of rope under you.

If someone wants to come up to MKE county and buy me lunch, I'll work play in my big elms in the front yard.


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## Marty B (Jan 27, 2008)

*Google up Dr. Karl Prusik & learn some history!!*



Scots Climber said:


> I beg to differ with your comment about not being able to descend on a Prussik. I agree that a Blakes is generally better and easier to use, however to release a Prussik in order to descend, you just have to push down on top loop with your thumb.
> 
> Just out of interest what diameter cord do you use for your Blakes and Prussik knots? If the diameter is too small they lock up very fast.



The Prusik knot was primarily designed for mountaineering to ascend. The prusik can be used in combination as a back-up when using a descending device. I dont think the Prusik is an ISA approved friction hitch for ascend/descend type tree work. Plus if you load 'em up they kind of lock up and have to be loosened. I learned this by hanging from my prusik (resting) when I gassed out while footlocking. When I wanted start up the rope again the prusik was clamped down so tight (I'm 240lbs.) I could hardly advance it.
As far as diameters go, I started climbing on a dynamic traditional system. We used a bowline as an attachment knot with about a 3' rope "tail" . We used a taunt-line hitch. So you can use the same dia. rope when using the taunt-line or the blake's. Just be sure you "Tie Dress Set" and load the hitch with your body weight before entering the tree. We use 5/16" HRC for prusiks, icicles,etc.


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## Scots Climber (Jan 27, 2008)

Marty B said:


> The Prusik knot was primarily designed for mountaineering to ascend. The prusik can be used in combination as a back-up when using a descending device. I dont think the Prusik is an ISA approved friction hitch for ascend/descend type tree work. Plus if you load 'em up they kind of lock up and have to be loosened. I learned this by hanging from my prusik (resting) when I gassed out while footlocking. When I wanted start up the rope again the prusik was clamped down so tight (I'm 240lbs.) I could hardly advance it.
> As far as diameters go, I started climbing on a dynamic traditional system. We used a bowline as an attachment knot with about a 3' rope "tail" . We used a taunt-line hitch. So you can use the same dia. rope when using the taunt-line or the blake's. Just be sure you "Tie Dress Set" and load the hitch with your body weight before entering the tree. We use 5/16" HRC for prusiks, icicles,etc.



I know all I need to know about Prussik's and how to use them, being a UIAA qualified Mountain Instructor in the British Army for eight years. From your description of the locking up experiance, it is you who needs to Google rope climbing techniques. If you use two Prussik's (one for your feet) on the ascent you have absolutely no fear of "gassing out" the technique needs a little practice but is very effective. 

As for it not being ISA approved, I cannot comment as I'm not and have never claimed to be an ISA qualified climber. The Arboricultural certificates I have are all issued by NPTC in the UK. The Mountaineering certificates I hold are all issued by MLTS (formerly the SMLTB) and UIAA. 

I'm not here to start or engage in a pointless argument, we all have different technique and experience in rope and tree climbing. If we are going to share knowledge we should ensure that it is clear, concise and useful. The post I made that you have double quoted was merely expressing an opinion.


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## Marty B (Jan 27, 2008)

*We are all in this together!*

Mr. S.C., I don't know what the heck happened with that double reply! I went to "edit" my reply after I posted...(hijacking, getting off subject), I want to appologize for the mix-up. 
This thread's topic is "ascenders" by Gottacut. The part of his post where he asks "So do you squeeze the hitch and not just the rope" was where I thought I should chime in. In my experience I have never seen anyone using a prusik to enter the tree. The only time I have seen it used to enter a tree, was when footlocking and it was used for fall prevention with a 3' leash, hands on the rope below the prusik. We have a couple of flip lines that have prusiks, I like how you can slack off the flip with one hand. 
S.C. how do you use your prusiks for ascend/decsend? Are you using them S.R.T., Dynamic, Doubled? Like I said in the title "We're All in this Together". Again, sorry, I don't know how that double quote thing happened.

Marty B


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## Scots Climber (Jan 27, 2008)

*For Marty B*

SRT, substitute the ascenders for Prussik's, I find it much less strenuous than footlocking. In the UK a lot of us still use Prussik's to enter trees.


http://wasg.iinet.net.au/srt/prus.gif

At an Arboricultural College in the UK, not the best photo but shows the Prussik...

http://www.myerscough.ac.uk/gallery%5CCentres%5CPreston%5Ctree-climbing.jpg

A good explanation of what I know as the "Texas Kick".

http://www.newtribe.com/documents/tip1.htm

Sorry for digressing.


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## oldirty (Jan 27, 2008)

i want the dual ascender. 110 bucks though.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 28, 2008)

Scots Climber said:


> If you use two Prussik's (one for your feet) on the ascent you have absolutely no fear of "gassing out" the technique needs a little practice but is very effective.



I learned this as "swiss ladder" while in the USMC, though could remember that wrong after 20+ years. Recondo school used it in their training for ascending to a helo skid though canopy. I've since seen catv shows of the resurrection of the course where the show the "finals" endurance contest.

I cold find nothing on youtube to show it. 

Very effective once the learning curve is broken.


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## Marty B (Jan 28, 2008)

*J.p.s.*



John Paul Sanborn said:


> I learned this as "swiss ladder" while in the USMC, though could remember that wrong after 20+ years. Recondo school used it in their training for ascending to a helo skid though canopy. I've since seen catv shows of the resurrection of the course where the show the "finals" endurance contest.
> 
> I cold find nothing on youtube to show it.
> 
> Very effective once the learning curve is broken.



Are the Swiss Ladder loop/loops short enough so that you can advance the foot prusik without using your hand?


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## Job Corps Tree (Jan 29, 2008)

*Which ascenders*

When I was still in Northen IL i was using an PMI Basic A little $50.00 hand full . Now we have all kinds of new ones. It is not so hard if you can hook up with Bigus Termitius, it would only be a short time to get used to using them. Know anyone working for a Local Tree Co.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 30, 2008)

Marty B said:


> Are the Swiss Ladder loop/loops short enough so that you can advance the foot prusik without using your hand?



Nope, They are tied so that you can advance the knots with your hands.

The Discovery/whatever channel had a great shot of a Ranger ascending to the faux Huey skid. 

It has been many moons since I played with it, so I would have to figure it out all over again.


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## lync (Jan 31, 2008)

*ascenders*

Not to start another topic I have a Question. Today I took a practical exam for a climbers position. The lead climber who watched my performance questioned weather my ascenders were safe to work off of. Two cmi ultraascenders with the new tribe sewn foot loops and slings. Both ascenders are anchored to my saddle by a biner(texas system). I told him if they are safe to ascend on they are safe to work on. 2 points of attachment on the rope is a sufficent back up in my eyes. He couldn't dispute that. Then he said that the Isa would never approve them. I told him I competed at the NYS tree climbing championships and used them in the rescue climb, without a problem. 
Is it just the fear of the unknown or have I been working off a dangerous climbing system and did not know it. I have no plans on changing back to less efficent modes of climbing. Many times I will stay tied into the ascenders on a single line and use my tail Ddrt to facilitate limbwalking. I need to be as energy efficent as possible to make it through the day. Any opinions would be appretiated. corey


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## ATH (Jan 31, 2008)

I have always worked with the understanding that the ascender is for getting into the tree. It then goes into the gear bag or hands on the saddle and I work off of the friction hitch/lanyard.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 1, 2008)

lync said:


> Many times I will stay tied into the ascenders on a single line and use my tail Ddrt to facilitate limbwalking. corey



I'm trying to picture this. Are you tying in Ddrt to the ascenders? If so it is acceptable as long as you "spike" the line with some type of knot. Personally I take it a step further and back up my ascender with a friction hitch as well.

I talked with a climber from Davey last fall who said their safety officers are super strict on what gear they allow their climbers to use. If I'm not mistaken they aren't allowed to use 'biners


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## mattfr12 (Feb 1, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> I'm trying to picture this. Are you tying in Ddrt to the ascenders? If so it is acceptable as long as you "spike" the line with some type of knot. Personally I take it a step further and back up my ascender with a friction hitch as well.
> 
> I talked with a climber from Davey last fall who said their safety officers are super strict on what gear they allow their climbers to use. If I'm not mistaken they aren't allowed to use 'biners



they are super strict, bartlett is the same way we have 3 saddles we can choose from and 1 style of caribiner we are allowed to use. no steel toed boots, no wire core lanyard, if you wear a climbing helmet it cant be a vent it has to be the petzl best. as for friction hitches your either allowed to use a blakes, or distil. i use to use a french prusik (valedtin) with a micro pully inline but when the safety instructer came around he told me i wasnt allowed to use it.


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## moray (Feb 1, 2008)

*a safety note*



Scots Climber said:


> http://wasg.iinet.net.au/srt/prus.gif


Anyone using two ascenders on a single line, as I do, probably feels safe enough against mechanical failure since it is nearly inconceivable that both ascenders would fail at the same time. But be sure each ascender is attached to your belt. Otherwise a failure could leave you inverted or in free fall. Though it was perhaps simplified on purpose, the diagram in the link provided by Scots Climber doesn't show any such connection for the foot-loop ascender--this would be an unsafe system.


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## D Mc (Feb 1, 2008)

Lync, The short answer is no, it is not safe to use an ascender as a work positioning redirect. They are not designed for the possible off-angles and they will almost certainly damage the rope in a slip or fall. 

There are other systems that would be worth researching if you want to work off a single line.

D Mc


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## Scots Climber (Feb 2, 2008)

moray said:


> Anyone using two ascenders on a single line, as I do, probably feels safe enough against mechanical failure since it is nearly inconceivable that both ascenders would fail at the same time. But be sure each ascender is attached to your belt. Otherwise a failure could leave you inverted or in free fall. Though it was perhaps simplified on purpose, the diagram in the link provided by Scots Climber doesn't show any such connection for the foot-loop ascender--this would be an unsafe system.



Yes that diagram is extremely simplified, I used it merely to show the arrangement of the ascenders.


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## lync (Feb 2, 2008)

OTG 
While tied in using the ascenders over a high tie in I'll pull up the tail and throw it or place it with a pole saw as a second tie in the using Ddrt on that second tie in and srt/ascenders on the first tie in I can start to work/limb walk/prune. I'll try to do 1/2 of the tree on the way up, when I reach the top I have the ground crew untie the anchored end of the srt line and do the rest of the tree on the way down using Ddrt, and double crothching as necessary. Not every tree can be done this way. For me its energy efficent. If I tied a knut above the top ascender I would have three points of attachment. That could become my friction hitch for the second half of the climb when I pull up the previously anchored srt end of the rope. As far as shock loading the ascenders I never have excess slack in the line, if I slipped I would swing as opposed to a fall arrest situation. I am confident that I would not overload the system in the event of a fall. I don't footlock, since I feel the ascenders may be a bit slower, but more energy efficent for me. I also rarely have to isolate my tie in since I'm climbing on 1 leg of the rope. Thanks for the imput.
Corey


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## Marty B (Feb 4, 2008)

*Terminology ?*

 Ddrt = Dynamic rope system?? Or Double rope Technique??


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## GottaCut (Feb 4, 2008)

Marty B said:


> Ddrt = Dynamic rope system?? Or Double rope Technique??



*d*ouble*d* *r**** *t*echnique


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## Marty B (Feb 5, 2008)

*Sounds a little complicated.........(imo)*



lync said:


> OTG
> While tied in using the ascenders over a high tie in I'll pull up the tail and throw it or place it with a pole saw as a second tie in the using Ddrt on that second tie in and srt/ascenders on the first tie in I can start to work/limb walk/prune. I'll try to do 1/2 of the tree on the way up, when I reach the top I have the ground crew untie the anchored end of the srt line and do the rest of the tree on the way down using Ddrt, and double crothching as necessary. Not every tree can be done this way. For me its energy efficent. If I tied a knut above the top ascender I would have three points of attachment. That could become my friction hitch for the second half of the climb when I pull up the previously anchored srt end of the rope. As far as shock loading the ascenders I never have excess slack in the line, if I slipped I would swing as opposed to a fall arrest situation. I am confident that I would not overload the system in the event of a fall. I don't footlock, since I feel the ascenders may be a bit slower, but more energy efficent for me. I also rarely have to isolate my tie in since I'm climbing on 1 leg of the rope. Thanks for the imput.
> Corey


So how many ascenders are you using when you use the above senerio?


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## oldirty (Feb 5, 2008)

does anyone use the rox dual ascender? how do you like it?


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> does anyone use the rox dual ascender? how do you like it?




I do and it is a great piece of gear, one of the few that is always in the bag


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## Podaltura (Feb 5, 2008)

I use these, and foot-look.


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## lync (Feb 5, 2008)

marty B

Two ascenders the top to my saddle and the second with foot loops also to my saddle.

corey


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## Marty B (Feb 5, 2008)

*lync*

In your post you mention that the ground crew releases the SRT once you have reached the top and then you pull the end of the rope up and recrotch and tie in using double rope technique (DbRT). I'm a little confused (not hard for me)!! Are you using ascenders on doubled rope (bite over a limb), or are you using a dynamic rope system,with the working end tied to a caribiner attached your saddle and a friction hitch on the tail or split-tail to the running end of the rope? We all have some different techniques up our sleeves, this sounds interesting to me. I'm all for saving energy!


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