# How would you fell this Maple 11" leaner?



## Billy_Bob (Jul 28, 2008)

Here is a small diameter maple tree (about 11 inch) leaning quite a bit to the left. It can fall the way it is leaning, wide open area.

The probem with this tree is it is small and I am wondering how deep of a face cut I should put in? There is not much room to have a regular depth face cut, then bore in with the saw behind the hinge.

I was planning on using an open-face facecut (90 degrees) so the holding wood would keep the tree attached to the stump during the entire fall, then bore in behind the hinge with my saw and saw back from the face (leaving wood in the back to prevent barberchair). Then???

I would now have the face cut and the area behind the hinge bored out. Then the final cut I have seen 3 ways. 

1. Is to cut from the back at a downward angle to the back of the boring backcut.

2. Straight from the back into the boring backcut.

3. Cut from the back several inches below the boring backcut.

Here is the tree... (the saw is tilting slightly - not level)...


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## redlaker (Jul 28, 2008)

try any of the above and see how it works... try something different on the next one.

in the time it took to type that post it could have been felled, limbed and bucked.. you can't cut it down with a keyboard hehe

but I am the cut first ask questions later type

oh ya I would make a shallower face, then just go in quick on the backcut assuming its for firewood... but I have no hardwood experience


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 28, 2008)

If you must bore it then do it first. Leave a good strap on the back. Then put a small face on it, personally I would do a very short humbolt or traditional (less than 1") so it jumps off. Trip the back below the cut and you're set.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> If you must bore it then do it first.



I like that idea of making the bore cut first. Then I could better judge how much of a face I could use to leave enough hinge.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

Now this is interesting on leaners from New Zealand...

It is a .pdf and on page 42 of Acrobat (page 43 of document), it shows the face cut (what they call a "scarf"), then a bore cut, then the final cut "as low as possible".

http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf


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## 2dogs (Jul 29, 2008)

A tiny face and a backcut all in under a minute. Cut the stump to the ground.


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## smokechase II (Jul 29, 2008)

*No one says why*

*"it shows the face cut (what they call a "scarf"), then a bore cut, then the final cut "as low as possible".*

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I do not know why they have made that emphasis and without an explanation............
I would think that generally finishing the cuts farther from the bore would invite a more powerful release of the slab and that strikes me as questionable.

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Options listed earlier:
1) Angled back-cut is from a primitive period in our past. Means more cutting and provides no benefit although there are those that want it to.
2) & 3) Both are OK just be ready for the jump and the possibility of the saw being caught by any portion of the slab and have both hands/thumbs/mind engaged.

{This 'tear out slab grabbing the saw' is more likely to happen if one just cuts out the back.}

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The reason the bore is used as a barber chair reduction technique is that it is less risky than depending on your saw to out cut the barber chair. Don't take a chance on a saw running out of gas or shutting down or cutting poorly for any reason. (I've hit nails in trees and one bullet where there were none or very little in the way of external scars.) 

If you were to just straight away back cut a heavy leaner make sure you cut something in the hinge prior to back-cutting. Nip the corners or better yet do the old triangle cut and possibly a face center bore prior to the 'power in let's get this done event'. The reason for these cuts is to break up the continuity of the hinge to reduce the chance of a split starting.

The boring back-cut takes the hinge down to the minimum on a no stress level.


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## ray benson (Jul 29, 2008)

This was posted a couple years ago by Murphy4Trees. Saved it for reference.


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## Bushler (Jul 29, 2008)

Face it quarterd toward the maple (1st pic) and cut it down...don't complicate it.

Logging is pretty simple really.

1. Whack em down.
2. Jerk em in
3. Call for trucks.


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## 2dogs (Jul 29, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Face it quarterd toward the maple (1st pic) and cut it down...don't complicate it.
> 
> Logging is pretty simple really.
> 
> ...



+1 (4. Stop and have a beer)


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> ...I would think that generally finishing the cuts farther from the bore would invite a more powerful release of the slab and that strikes me as questionable...



Perhaps the fibers in a tree are sort of like a rope and say that rope is the holding wood left with this cut. So maybe you can cut it down lower and it would release just the same? Or perhaps give a bit of a delay allowing you to cut the entire "rope" before the tree falls?

(Sort of along the lines of the root pull thing and making the side cuts.)


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## 056 kid (Jul 29, 2008)

hell i could zing right through that thing, top to bottem. If you wanna make it fo left or right face it that way and remove compression wood first!


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 29, 2008)

ray benson said:


> This was posted a couple years ago by Murphy4Trees. Saved it for reference.



That picture of Murph is right on dead nuts, I love it. Notice the huge strap and short notch so it will hold until cut then jump. If not, he's dead, no room for errors when you're strapped to your work. Lottsa energy being released there, needs to happpen clean, nice job.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 29, 2008)

FYI - I asked about the New Zealand cut (which is face, bore cut, then final cut low down) in the commercial forum. Someone said the final cut low down prevents the saw from being thrown up with the tree when it falls.

So this cut with a leaner prevents barberchair and prevents problems with the bar getting caught with the final back cut. Sounds pretty good to me!


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 29, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> FYI - I asked about the New Zealand cut (which is face, bore cut, then final cut low down) in the commercial forum. Someone said the final cut low down prevents the saw from being thrown up with the tree when it falls.
> 
> So this cut with a leaner prevents barberchair and prevents problems with the bar getting caught with the final back cut. Sounds pretty good to me!



That someone was me, I log and do tree trimming, that's why I am stalking you. The trip cut down low does not prevent barber chair, the hinge already being set and the back cut made before release does that. What I said was that the butt log will not have fibers pulled, just a strap to remove once on the ground.

Also, the saw has less chance of going with the tree because with your final cut you are cutting into the stump not into the tree that is going over.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 29, 2008)

Notch and drop. I would have it cut and hauled by the time you figure out how to do it!


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## 2dogs (Jul 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> That someone was me, I log and do tree trimming, that's why I am stalking you. The trip cut down low does not prevent barber chair, the hinge already being set and the back cut made before release does that. What I said was that the butt log will not have fibers pulled, just a strap to remove once on the ground.
> 
> Also, the saw has less chance of going with the tree because with your final cut you are cutting into the stump not into the tree that is going over.



Soooo Nails, let's say you have a heavy head leaner 30" DBH. The tree is sound, the roots look good, and this is just a takedown- no commercial value. The lean is extreme though and you're on a steep sidehill and a barberchair is always a possbility. I would probably use a Coos Bay cut. Would you try to face and bore on a sidehill or...what?


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## Bushler (Jul 30, 2008)

What's a Coos Bay cut? That's where I learned to cut and I never heard that.


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## 2dogs (Jul 30, 2008)

Bushler said:


> What's a Coos Bay cut? That's where I learned to cut and I never heard that.



I learned a Coos Bay as 2 cuts, one on each side of the tree and inline with the lean. These are about 1/3 the diameter of the tree leaving it hanging on a strip 1/3 the diameter of the tree. Then the strip is cut fast and the tree falls down the slope. I have used it with succes.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 30, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Soooo Nails, let's say you have a heavy head leaner 30" DBH. The tree is sound, the roots look good, and this is just a takedown- no commercial value. The lean is extreme though and you're on a steep sidehill and a barberchair is always a possbility. I would probably use a Coos Bay cut. Would you try to face and bore on a sidehill or...what?



Your Coos Bay cut will work. You could also bore it. I think I would have to be there or see a picture to know exactly which to choose.


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## 2dogs (Jul 30, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Your Coos Bay cut will work. You could also bore it. I think I would have to be there or see a picture to know exactly which to choose.



The tree doesn't exist, just a hypothetical situation. However there are many trees like that around here.


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## palogger (Jul 30, 2008)

if the saws sharp just notch, bore center out and conventional back cut it, not to hard. as for the bore cut preventing barberchair , not always seen it happen when the idiot left to big of a hinge, he said "i bore cut it because everyone tells me they won't barberchair that way".


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## 2dogs (Jul 30, 2008)

palogger said:


> if the saws sharp just notch, bore center out and conventional back cut it, not to hard. as for the bore cut preventing barberchair , not always seen it happen when the idiot left to big of a hinge, he said "i bore cut it because everyone tells me they won't barberchair that way".



If you are saying bore from the face I would say no, too dangerous to be below the tree for that long. I am not saying YOU could not do it, just that I would not.

Regarding your second sentance- absolutely right on. Just because you use a certain method does not mean every tree will act the same and it does not mean you can ignore the basics like good hinge construction

I'm layed up this week so I have spend alot of time here. It has been a busy week and I have enjoyed it.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 30, 2008)

I used the New Zealand cut on the above tree today and with the last cut...

CRACK! (Almost as loud as a fire cracker.)

Anyway here are pictures of the stump and log using the New Zealand cut...


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## oldirty (Jul 30, 2008)

i'm thinking that was a bit too low on the release cut bud


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 30, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i'm thinking that was a bit too low on the release cut bud



I'm wondering the same thing myself. Anyone know?

The New Zealand manual says "final cut as low as possible". What does that mean?


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## b1rdman (Jul 30, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Notch and drop. I would have it cut and hauled by the time you figure out how to do it!



Well sure...but even I could do that and I'm not even in the business. Heck, any one of us could do that in half a dozen different ways. 

I think what the poster is looking for is everyone's thoughts...trying to expand one's repertoire if you will.

FWIW...a shallow humbolt and quick backcut would be my preference.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 30, 2008)

b1rdman said:


> ...I think what the poster is looking for is everyone's thoughts...trying to expand one's repertoire if you will...



Usually everyone posts pictures of the trees after cutting.... I thought I would try something new and post the pictures *before* cutting! (And thus maybe learn some new tricks, which I did.)


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## oldirty (Jul 30, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> I'm wondering the same thing myself. Anyone know?
> 
> The New Zealand manual says "final cut as low as possible". What does that mean?





not sure what them NZ'ers are up to bud to me it would be lower than the backcut but not that low. like a "few" inches below. dont hold it to me though, i dont have any cuts named after me. 

i always thought the purpose of that cut was to be able to make a quick getaway after the cut. if your cutting it ALAP doesnt that mean you gotta get up close to the wood and potentially on bended knee?


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## b1rdman (Jul 30, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> Usually everyone posts pictures of the trees after cutting.... I thought I would try something new and post the pictures *before* cutting! (And thus maybe learn some new tricks, which I did.)



I think that's a great idea. I read much but post little because I think I have a lot to learn. I'd love to see more ways to skin a cat too.

I picked up the bore cut on this site and I agree with the majority who think that it's overused but I've tried it many times on trees just like the one you presented. There's not a terrible risk on a tree like this and it builds your skills; adds another tool to your "tool box".

Having said that...you need to go with what fits your comfort level and not what the majority says.


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## oldirty (Jul 30, 2008)

i look at the felling of "little" tree's as a chance to work on my cuts for when i have to drop something bigger. for the most part the little guys are going to do the same thing that the big'ns are going to do, just on a different scale.

lately ive been finding myself doing the humboltd on most of the butt's ive had to drop. i like the way it comes off the stump and lands flatter than a conventional cut, never mind when its essential that i keep the log on the stump. 

i was using this cut when climbing (when the situation called for it) without really knowing what it was. this site and a few books have helped me find a great use of this cut on the ground now. but only when the situation calls for it.

billy bob. like b1rdman says, "another tool in the tool box". and nothing like getting the chance to practice using them tools.

good luck with it.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 30, 2008)

b1rdman said:


> Well sure...but even I could do that and I'm not even in the business. Heck, any one of us could do that in half a dozen different ways.
> 
> I think what the poster is looking for is everyone's thoughts...trying to expand one's repertoire if you will.
> 
> FWIW...a shallow humbolt and quick backcut would be my preference.



Yeah ok but that was my thoughts I have cut probably near two hundred thousand trees without injury and little property damage I can't say none
fence or two no major damage in 23 years. In all that time I may have 
bore cut three of four times and not because it was needed. I have and
still do use lumbermans or humbolt notch and like it for landing sections
because it is easier to land them flat! I have seen people doodle bug
too many times and when its plain and simple just cut it.

Question: how would you cut this tree?


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 30, 2008)

Bob, I would have probably tripped the strap 1/3 as low as you did. 

To me it depends on the severity of the lean and the overall weight being released (top weight). The lower you trip it, the more grain you have to split before it lets go. The higher the trip the sooner it will let go. That is probably why they want you to trip it low.

I agree with Oldirty, you have to play with those smaller trees when you can. Pull out the bag of tricks and see what you can do. Start small and work up to the big stuff.

Thanks for the pics BTW, it's always a plus.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 30, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah ok but that was my thoughts I have cut probably near two hundred thousand trees without injury and little property damage I can't say none
> fence or two no major damage in 23 years. In all that time I may have
> bore cut three of four times and not because it was needed. I have and
> still do use lumbermans or humbolt notch and like it for landing sections
> ...



I would face it, then bore the face, then bore the back cut, then bore the compression side and set a wedge in it, be careful not to beat the wedge in too hard, jump in the middle and have my buddy trip the tension strap so I could ride it down. lol.

You sure love that tree don't you Rope.


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## oldirty (Jul 30, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I would face it, then bore the face, then bore the back cut, then bore the compression side and set a wedge in it, be careful not to beat the wedge in too hard, jump in the middle and have my buddy trip the tension strap so I could ride it down. lol.
> 
> You sure love that tree don't you Rope.





lol


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## ropensaddle (Jul 30, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I would face it, then bore the face, then bore the back cut, then bore the compression side and set a wedge in it, be careful not to beat the wedge in too hard, jump in the middle and have my buddy trip the tension strap so I could ride it down. lol.
> 
> You sure love that tree don't you Rope.



Ok you sometimes make sense but not on this one a wedge would have spelled disaster. Trust me and I like metal wedges so don't take it wrong but it did not have enough sound wood to raise it and leaned toward that house! By the way I did not bore that tree!!!!!


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 30, 2008)

What part about riding in the middle of a hollow tree doesn't make sense? Seem perfectly logical to me. (sarcasm) 

I've seen the documentary on that tree, it was a doosy. Keep pluggin!


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## ropensaddle (Jul 30, 2008)

oldirty said:


> lol



Wtf are you laughin bout :hmm3grin2orange: I am always forgetting
the friggin camera but I have one coming up That I will have to get
pics of and I will have to climb it, so maybe then y' all will understand.
It is a large pine with the roof built around it with a three phase power
line on one side and roof on all sides it should be good!


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## oldirty (Jul 30, 2008)

just having a laugh there rope. thats all. lol



looking forward to the pics from that big nasty bud. get some.


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## b1rdman (Jul 31, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Question: how would you cut this tree?



LOL....I wouldn't.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 31, 2008)

If that hole is facing the direction of the intended fall, and if the you'd be pulling it straight over backwards, the outside hingewood should hold it. face cut and back cut, winch over, healthy 2" hinge i guess on that one. Scary, no doubt. But surely its on the ground by this time, no? It looks like dead wood too. Scary. Straight over backwards only. I'd love to do it but man, the consequences (house, rep.). Must have worked out cause it sounds like you're still in business. So how'd you do it?


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## hammerlogging (Jul 31, 2008)

scary because of the house, not so much cutting the tree. Thats what 1 and 1b escape routes are for.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 31, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> If that hole is facing the direction of the intended fall, and if the you'd be pulling it straight over backwards, the outside hingewood should hold it. face cut and back cut, winch over, healthy 2" hinge i guess on that one. Scary, no doubt. But surely its on the ground by this time, no? It looks like dead wood too. Scary. Straight over backwards only. I'd love to do it but man, the consequences (house, rep.). Must have worked out cause it sounds like you're still in business. So how'd you do it?



Well since ya missed the documentary I got all I could off with my 
60 ft high ranger and then set a high test log chain so I could turn
around and hook my pto winch on and also a rope tensioned and tied off
for a safety. I then put a ratchet strap binder around it and tightened it 
real good to prevent chair. The tree was more scary because it was fully
alive in the top = more weight and the long red oak limbs went way over the house and I did not trust rigging to itself! Yes it worked out I would never have chanced it if I did not have 100% confidence but my twenty ton winch can uproot most twenty inch trees!


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## hammerlogging (Aug 1, 2008)

I like that, 100% confidence on a sketch-o tree. I like it.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 1, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> I like that, 100% confidence on a sketch-o tree. I like it.



I spent the last thirteen years as a trouble tree crew for local
power company cutting their bad ones near energized conductors,
houses etc. I have scratched my head many times to come up with
a solution and never had and injury to me or my men or major damage.
One thing that helps is to remain calm and sort out the what ifs figure
the best solution and then perform. Danger trees is not for the novice,
nor is it for the production orientated types it is more a slow down and lets
think about this a little! That was not anywhere near the worst tree I have
been put on but was definately worthy of noting.


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## joesawer (Aug 3, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> I'm wondering the same thing myself. Anyone know?
> 
> The New Zealand manual says "final cut as low as possible". What does that mean?





My best guess is that it is for logging and they assume that the scarf and hinge is already as low as practical. The back cut should always be lower but imo 1/2 inch is as good as (or even much better) than several inches.
That was a pretty good looking cut. No dutchman, and nice hinge.
A few things to note when cutting leaners- 
They don't require a large hinge, they are already commited to a direction.
Also on larger leaners, the canopy is usualy mostly on the side of the lean and if fell straight with the lean they will roll over when they hit the ground. It is often best to cut them quartering away from the lean so that you can control which way the butt will roll.


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## Zackman1801 (Aug 3, 2008)

if it were me i would do it as simple as possible, i would just make an open faced notch in the direction of the lean going in about 1-1.5 inches, then i would bore cut the middle leaving a hinge of 1/2 inch. then leave 1 inch of holding wood at the back, step back, cut the holding wood and watch it fall. simple should only take 1 min tops.


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