# Mechanical Ascender setups and Ascenscion Techniques



## BigUglySquirrel (Sep 30, 2008)

Hey all! 
New to mechanical devices so go slow. I ascend by body thrust and it CAN'T be the most efficient way. I've looked at several systems in catalogs...the Tree Frog etc etc etc. Well they all sound just fabulous in the catalog, right?  You guys use this stuff and have far more experience with it, so I turn to you for what works/what's overrated and what's just crap. 

I'm lookin for something that's not horribly gear intensive and not horribly expensive. At the same time it needs to be effective. Most of my ascents are in the neighborhood of 45-60 feet. Some as high as 80ish. (rarely) 

Sooo...what are you guys using? What did you hate? I'm certain footlocking is probably the least expensive route and more efficient than body thrust, but I've tried it and I must be missin something somewhere because it's just not workin out for me. lol! 

As always, thanks in advance!


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## masterarbor (Oct 1, 2008)

try to footlock with a kong double handled ascender. It's much easier. I would think those complicated acending systems would be overkill for a 50' climb.


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## toddstreeservic (Oct 1, 2008)

Body thrust is good for enhancing your love life but not very efficient for climbing trees. I use a petzl ascender w/ a foot loop and a grigri on single line or double line. My business partner has developed a single line technique which uses dual foot ascenders that clip on and off the rope and a dual handled ascender and chest harness. It is fast but wicked gear intensive IMO. We don't do a lot of roped climbing mostly spikes for takedowns.


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## (WLL) (Oct 1, 2008)

keep working on the foot-lock. drt is a good way 2 go.


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## BigUglySquirrel (Oct 5, 2008)

Thank you fellas!! I'll stay on the footlock and try the handled ascenders. 

heheh...smooth crotches.  I'm lovin it!!


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## appalachianarbo (Oct 5, 2008)

For more than about 30 climbs, I ascend single line with a Petzl ascender up top, a friction hitch at the waist, and a Pantin on my foot. 

If I'm working alone, I'll catch the TIP with a running bowline and ascend to it, then tie in with my lanyard, untie the TIP and tie a termination on a biner on my sliding D's (no need to untie and retie the friction hitch - it's already set up!). I'm set to work DdRT. 

If I'm with the crew, I'll tie one end of the rope to a nearby trunk, ascend the other end, and when I get to the TIP, lanyard in and have them untie me. All I have to do is pull the slack through, tie my termination, and off I go. 

I like tying the rope to a nearby trunk because then I don't have to isolate the branch with the throwline. Just toss it over and tie it off. When alone, I have to make sure the TIP branch has been isolated so my bowline chokes the right way.


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## Dillweed (Oct 8, 2008)

*try to footlock with a kong double handled ascender. It's much easier. I would think*

I bought one of those kong double handled ascenders and have footlocked with it. Honestly, I get freaked out using, paranoid about it failing. Feel much better with my hands around the rope. I do usually use prusik though, most climbers I know use no safety when footlocking. They even look at you funny if you use a prusik.


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## oldirty (Oct 8, 2008)

foot locking is the best way to go. cheapest too.

ive got a dual ascender for 104$. spends most of its time in my toolbag. and thats for the double rope footlocking.

tell you what though, just footlocking to advance to another place on my hitch climber is pretty darn good. i'm liking that setup. its real nice.


hey apparbo whats all this going to your tip and being tied off to trucks? is that the srt technique?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 16, 2008)

Kong with foot loop and Pantin on other foot. Maximize use of legs, some arm, but mostly have arms keep body inline with rope, not to leverage own weight against yourself. Friction hitch for safety, over Kong. 

Hitch is reuseable. Can leave Pantin on. It is very discrete, useful for short climbs (up or across) and also you can help set rig lines by standing on control side with Pantin. If you then reach over to load side and pull up with hand, you then have to automatically push down with the equivalent force on control side. So now we have body weight + 2xEffort helping preset, now if you can just hold hand on load side of pivot/redirect and push down with leg force (instead of lifting with hand force) that 2xEffort becomes 2xLegForce rather than 2xArmForce...

If you can flex load; reaching out further than hitch on load, will give leverage to load side lift. If you can't, it is best to step up some so you can grab higher on load side of line to have more rope length to prestretch. This makes even more sense with a higher friction redirect. Of course after helping or majoring in line tension preset, you can then get extra friction high, to limit the amount of stretch from rest of line (if more support and sweep is needed rather than dampening). Even if ground is major control on rig, it is best line is straight vertical while you help, then they can angle line to friction and/or clearance.


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## tree MDS (Oct 16, 2008)

I footlock drt, with just a prussik, it works sweet but is not at all easy - dont be fooled. Its all about that bounce and then tossing your prussik as far as you can, the repeating the process. The other week I was hanging in space (with "old brown") pulling myself up, bustin my a$$, and then after all this talk of pantin and all that, it finally occured to me to just footlock granny style, I felt stupid it worked sweet with just a taughtline, saved energy for sure. It probably would have come to me sooned, but I dont prune much, lol. "Grannylocking", is that the new term, lol.


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## rbtree (Oct 16, 2008)

Ascenders are great for long climbs. I have several set-ups (Tree Frog, Rope Walking, and an improved variation of Mar Bars) and am going to add another, the RADS system, which allows for 2-1 mechanical advantage on SRT. Normal Ddrt is also 2-1. (RADS= rapid entry, descent system)

Another slick and easy way up is with a groundie or two pulling you up. This requires an access line set high with a pulley in it. Insert climb line in pulley, run it up to tie-in point, tie off at base, making a retrievable false crotch. Now, attach self tending prussic knot of choice, and ascend Ddrt. Two strong groundies and pulling yourself, and you're up 60 feet in a flash. Even better is to employ one of the extended bridge self tending set-ups, and self ascent via the normally outmoded body thrust becomes relatively easy. Add a foot ascender, and let the legs do the work.


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## tree MDS (Oct 16, 2008)

Whats up with the "croll chest ascender"? anyone familliar with that setup? Some guys I know were talking about that and said it was pretty amazing. I gotta dig out my sherrill cat sinse the helper didnt show today... Pluto here we come, lol.


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## rbtree (Oct 16, 2008)

Works sweet, needs a chest/neck harness, and two foot ascenders....that's rope walking, very fast, and easy.


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## tree MDS (Oct 16, 2008)

rbtree said:


> Works sweet, needs a chest/neck harness, and two foot ascenders....that's rope walking, very fast, and easy.



So when you get up there what? have the groundie tie on a real saddle?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 16, 2008)

i kinda like that too Rog, sometimes we'd setup climbing line in tended DdRT to climber, on extended bridge (to get more pull per cycle for climber under tended hitch). Extend leg of another line off Porty and/or (just) trunk mount, with pulley ending up on end before climber. Place end of climbing line in. Ground control can now pull as power assist to climber scaling up line in DdRT by foot lock or Pantin, tended hitch keeps 'em from falling. The pulley should stretch out to end right under climber for maximum benefit, then be locked off to stay. If there is no pulley setup, the guys are right under climber (or the climber is fighting at an angle, trying to go straight up...), so even though they can't use bodyweight as much, this way is safer and more guys can get on line too. Working together all of you should be able to float you up with much less effort, especially on lower friction TIP and very little changeover 'cost' (after ascending. Also, change over back to work a level and then go up more, is then quicker too.

A few times we used truck for pulling me up(including when i injured leg daze b4 and couldn't get anyone else to go up and finish job, and kinda got pulled up and hopped around on 1 leg knocking it out as i came down...), but lots easier to get hurt, from speed, bad coordination, overpowering rope, overpowering TIP, ramming head into TIP; ya know, small chit like'dat....


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## tree MDS (Oct 16, 2008)

Treeco, can you use that thing with a regular saddle? How does it work? I lost or lent out my new sherril cat, grrr... Nevermind treeco, I found it in last years sherill. I also found the croll thingy.. interesting.


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## deevo (Oct 16, 2008)

rbtree said:


> Ascenders are great for long climbs. I have several set-ups (Tree Frog, Rope Walking, and an improved variation of Mar Bars) and am going to add another, the RADS system, which allows for 2-1 mechanical advantage on SRT. Normal Ddrt is also 2-1. (RADS= rapid entry, descent system)
> 
> Another slick and easy way up is with a groundie or two pulling you up. This requires an access line set high with a pulley in it. Insert climb line in pulley, run it up to tie-in point, tie off at base, making a retrievable false crotch. Now, attach self tending prussic knot of choice, and ascend Ddrt. Two strong groundies and pulling yourself, and you're up 60 feet in a flash. Even better is to employ one of the extended bridge self tending set-ups, and self ascent via the normally outmoded body thrust becomes relatively easy. Add a foot ascender, and let the legs do the work.



Rb, I just got my RAD set up today from Baileys with 11mm blaze line, going to rig it up and give it a try tomorrow!


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## JTinaTree (Oct 16, 2008)

Two words *TREE FROG......*


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## JTinaTree (Oct 16, 2008)

Hold on there was supposed to be a picture on there. Here it is.. I can climb to the top of my 120ft Tulip Poplar in about 30seconds..


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## md_tree_dood (Oct 17, 2008)

Realize that you can climb with the ddrt and just add a petzl pantin. As you step on the rope it tends the line for you assuming you're using a pulley with it. Also remember that if you're going to use most techniques like footlocking or srt, you need a figure eight on your saddle, else you won't be able to descend. Finally if you're footlocking without a prussic or ascending using mechanical ascenders and you're not using a prussic, you're an IDIOT. Just put your prussic above your ascender and slide it up as you go.


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## tree MDS (Oct 17, 2008)

JTinaTree said:


> Two words *TREE FROG......*


 Yep, thats what I'd buy looking over that stuff.


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## 046 (Oct 17, 2008)

thinking of going with a frog system... kong on top with patin, still using blakes for a secondary. perhaps I'll grow to trust all mechanicals... but not yet.


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## 046 (Oct 17, 2008)

no problems using VT.... but if I'm using the same split tail/ line combo as I'm currently using for blakes... why wouldn't it still work?



TreeCo said:


> Be careful with the Blakes. My experience is that it does not grab a single line very well when both are of the same diameter.
> 
> But the VT does!
> 
> Quite a few are using the system you are describing.


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## treemandan (Oct 17, 2008)

oldirty said:


> foot locking is the best way to go. cheapest too.
> 
> ive got a dual ascender for 104$. spends most of its time in my toolbag. and thats for the double rope footlocking.
> 
> ...



Yeah right, you are still on a ladder. Nah, I love ya.


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## treemandan (Oct 17, 2008)

go anywhere






Did someone mention tying onto a truck?





Oh stop, you know you like it.


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## woodchux (Oct 17, 2008)

Its been my experience that a standard blakes hitch will grab too well on srt .


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## 046 (Oct 17, 2008)

OK... it looks like blakes is not good for SRT.... VT it is..


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## md_tree_dood (Oct 18, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> In the CMI frog system the climber is attached to the rope with two ascenders. This is a safe system and no prussic is needed.



To my knowledge, ANSI standards state that any mechanical system MUST be backed by some sort of hitch (usually a prussic).


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## JTinaTree (Oct 18, 2008)

md_tree_dood said:


> To my knowledge, ANSI standards state that any mechanical system MUST be backed by some sort of hitch (usually a prussic).



I dont think that is so, because the Tree Frog uses a croll chest acender,and a handle ascender both which are attached to your sadddle bridge..


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 18, 2008)

i think hitches are good at more angles and conditions (except dirty lines). Also, safety hitch should be higher than mechanical ascenders, so as not to be taken out by said mechanical ascendor.

Frictions hitches should not be used to descend SRT. In SRT they are double loaded (compaired to DdRT). But also, in DdRT the load weight (you) can shift to the non-friction hitch/terminated leg, unloading the hitch further for safe descent(under proper conditions). this werks like if using 2 legs of line to lower,a nd one extends further,t he other leg takes the load. SRT doesn't have this 'helper leg' to unload half the weight too, and then more when you go to 'extend' the leg with friction hitch on it.

Even if hitches tied the same, individual types of lines, diameters and personal setting habits etc. can make one werk some, when it isn't recomended. i think in a safety minded culture, the outright recomendations should then stay conservative, when they seem to bend the 'findings' of the populace.

Fixed eyes (bowlines, large eye splices) are okay on the more self righting snaps, but hitches that cinch up should be used on krabs that go beyond a single loading b4 inspecting IMLHO. Like if rigging down, align and test, then rig, then another run is anther inspection is lots safert than a point you can't inspect or one you are wearing and going through constant changes in angle and loadings...

Bowline-Krab Warning​


.


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## moss (Oct 20, 2008)

JTinaTree said:


> Hold on there was supposed to be a picture on there. Here it is.. I can climb to the top of my 120ft Tulip Poplar in about 30seconds..



The Tree Frog is excellent, it's a minimal, clean and simple SRT ropewalker. You can climb as fast as your heart and lungs will let you.

For a Tree Frog you need a center waist attachment point for the Croll, the Petzl Sequoia SRT version harness or the Tree Flex have it. Any harness with a center waist belt buckle doesn't.
-moss


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## JTinaTree (Oct 20, 2008)

Moss, I attach the croll to my bridge on my BII with a AMD locking biner, The Petzl Secur is attached to center rear loop of my harness with a keychain biner. The back strap of the Petzl secur is not very important so a keychain biner works fine to keep it from flopping back over your shoulders.


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## moss (Oct 21, 2008)

JTinaTree said:


> Moss, I attach the croll to my bridge on my BII with a AMD locking biner, The Petzl Secur is attached to center rear loop of my harness with a keychain biner. The back strap of the Petzl secur is not very important so a keychain biner works fine to keep it from flopping back over your shoulders.



No doubt you're strong enough to overcome the difference between having the Croll at your waist or on the bridge. It doesn't seem like much difference but when the Croll is attached at the waist it holds you more vertical with less load on your arms. It adds up on a long ascent. I've rigged a tech cord sling on my NT harness to go up behind my waist belt to hold the Croll in an optimal position. Something similar could be rigged on a BII with some webbing or tech cord.

I made a bungee version of a Secur, whatever works, just need to hold the Croll up so it advances with no resistance.
-moss


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## JTinaTree (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeh, I kind bought my own Tree Frog system minus the Pantin, Which i have been useing for years on DRT. So when I finished my research and was ready to buy a SRT setup form Sherrills I just told them to send me the rest of the components.. I have only used the system on 13mm Pro Stripe I am curious to know if it performs that much better with Poison Ivy which will be my next rope purchase I think.. All I have ever climbed on is 1/2 lines.. So I would like to try climbing on a smaller line + to see if the VT and Distel performs better on smaller climbing lines..


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## SCTreeCare (Jan 2, 2009)

"Another slick and easy way up is with a groundie or two pulling you up."

I've had two to three groundies try to pull my heavy arse up 60+ feet and you wear your ground guys out b4 you've even started a biggie and your in for it. I'd never leave one guy to pull me up unless I had a 7-1 pulley.

Set blocks up high and at base, use heavy duty gear, use lots of rope if needed and have a truck pull you up. Saved my ass on big 7ft DBH jeff pines in Sierras.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 2, 2009)

> I've had two to three groundies try to pull my heavy arse up 60+ feet and you wear your ground guys out



Buy a GRCS and have one of them belay you, or get a Milwaukee Electric HoleHog to drive the GRCS.


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