# Almost got crushed by my flipline



## chad556

I haven't been doing this kind of work for a long time, just a few months now actually. As a beginner, I have to say that many of the stories and news articles that I have read in this forum have probably kept me alive and have certainly impacted the way I look at safety. That said I feel like I owe it to the community here to give back by telling my story (as embarrassing and stupid as it may be).







It started with two red oak trees that needed to be climbed. I installed my climbing line in one and spur climbed up the other one (the one on the left in the picture) I made my way to the first branch and walked out about halfway on it. The angle on the photo is bad but I marked where the cut was in red. I swung my flipline around the branch, dug my gaffs in, got comfortable, and started up my saw. I started out with an undercut wedge and then deftly fliped my bar to the other side of the branch and started my back cut. What once was tricky for me was finally starting to come naturally, or so i thought.

The piece I was cutting was big, 500 pounds maybe 25' long by about 8"-10" diameter where i was making my cut. One guy couldn't drag it on his own, lets put it that way. I was tired, it was winding on down to the end of the day and somehow I misjudged where to make the back cut and made it about 4" higher than i needed. Sure enough I heard the thing cracking and starting to move, I prepared myself for the recoil in the branch as all that weight separated and all of the sudden... BAM. I was slammed right into the branch by my lanyard, my whole lower half being squeezed hard and my leg, still gaffed into the tree painfully hyper extended. All my breath was squeezed out of me and it was impossible to inhale.

The branch had split right down the middle, ripping in half and taking my lanyard(and me) with it. My hand rushed in a panic to my flip line but immediately i saw that loosening it under that much tension was hopeless. I then remembered the knife I carry on the back of my harness, it has a guthook, serrated curved blade and a razor sharp blade that would cut through my rope in a few quick strokes. It would be close, but I figured that I would have just enough time before I passed out to reach back, get the knife out and cut myself free. Luckly, at this point I realized that I had my still running 200T in my left hand. I revved up and swung the bar right through that blaze rope. The line snapped and flew apart and I just lied there on that branch gasping for air for at least a good minute. When I could move again I painfully sat back in my harness and descended right into a utility vehicle and got whisked off to the ER. 






My back was killing me and I couldn't sit up or stand without pain and I had to walk with a limp. Everything checked out fine thankfully, no permanent damage (except to that flipline). I got two days off work to think about my stupidity and a bottle of pain pills. The moral of the story is to be precise with your cuts and watch where you have all of your ropes, you really can kill yourself pretty easily if you get sloppy. I will never make this kind of mistake again. I easily could have died and that freaks me out, I'm just 25 years old and thats way too young. I owe that little saw my life for cutting that rope.

Anyways, I have pretty much made a full recovery (the accident took place on Wednesday) just a little pain in my knee from where it was bent backwards over the tree. I am hoping that by posting this it will add to the library of close calls and tragedy that we all can learn from and use to stay safe out there.


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## yooper

did you say you had yer flip line around trunk of the branch you whee cutting? where you also below or lower then the branch also? I like to stay above my work if at all possible. torso wise.
glad to see yer all right.


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## yooper

I see now you where out a ways on the limb. had to make the photo bigger.


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## rarefish383

Hey Chad, glad you're ok. I have a question, were those take downs or pruning jobs? How did you get your line up in the first one? Stay safe , Joe.


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## tomtrees58

dug my gaffs in, that's a removal right or you should go work for some 2 years or better


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## derwoodii

Your fast thinkin saved the day & very lucky as well. Thanks for post, when one shows how things can go wrong many may learn.

Know a bloke who got torn up badly & never worked again when similar happened.


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## flushcut

I think it may be in your best interest to hire a professional next time.


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## chad556

Yeah both trees were to be taken down, I may be new to climbing but I have studied the theory and worked with pros for years now, you wont see this guy spike trimming (I'm actually going to take my ISA certification test soon). I pulled my rope up into the first one because i was going to move over to it once i took care of that lowest branch of the one on the left (it was blocking the drop zone of the tree I was tied into and I didn't want anything to hang up) Also, once the branch was gone on the one on the left the tree could be safely dropped. It was a big branch and it would have caused a lot of damage to a bunker complex if it came down the way it was.

It was just a dumb mistake, I made a very sloppy backcut on the branch and my lanyard happened to be in the way. If I had only wrapped it around the smaller branch just to the right of that red line and made the cut I would have gotten away unhurt. Seeing the branch rip that way I still would have learned the same lesson though.


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## promac850

Glad to hear you're okay. I make stupid mistakes too. Thankfully, I haven't died or been seriously injured from them.


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## treemandan

Nah buddy, yer fine! Doing a great job! Sounds like you got what it takes.


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## treemandan

Cutting a limb like that is not as straight foreward as it may seem. Give yourself the credit.


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## treemandan

Also, what kind of cut were you making?

If the backcut was further out than the facecut just forget all about the kind of cut. It is not a good way even though it says it is in the manual.

Looks like you should have used a narrow notch or a jump.

Also, if you are gonna lay into a piece of wood like that I recomend nothing short of a ms200t.


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## chad556

It was just a standard notch, not too wide, about 45 degrees. Looking at it from the ground it was way too small also, only about a quarter of the way in. And the back cut was aimed to be straight into the apex of the notch. Somehow it ended up 4" up the branch, just one of those things I guess, mistakes happen. You can bet I will take the extra second to double check from now on though.

BTW what exactly is a jump?


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## treeman82

I'd recommend ALWAYS having a handsaw on your saddle. You will pretty much always know where it is, should something like this happen. Also, on a branch that size, you're gonna be lucky to get more than 1/4 way in with a notch, after that point you risk pinching from the weight of the branch, and then you'll need a handsaw or other more PITA tools to get yourself out.

A jump cut, FYI is just 2 cuts, the first coming up from the bottom, and the second coming down from the top, either right on top of, or slightly behind the first.


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## mpatch

treeman82 said:


> I'd recommend ALWAYS having a handsaw on your saddle. You will pretty much always know where it is, should something like this happen. Also, on a branch that size, you're gonna be lucky to get more than 1/4 way in with a notch, after that point you risk pinching from the weight of the branch, and then you'll need a handsaw or other more PITA tools to get yourself out.
> 
> A jump cut, FYI is just 2 cuts, the first coming up from the bottom, and the second coming down from the top, either right on top of, or slightly behind the first.


 
Pretty darn sure that's not a jump cut that you are describing. It would be a breakaway cut that you are describing. And FYI don't make the cut's on top of each other unless you like to drop saws out of trees.


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## Kottonwood

Were you using the top rope as well? Does everyone here always double tie in when cutting? I personally don't. In that instance he was less safe than being just tied in on his top rope. In the past I had a boss that always wanted you to be double tied in when running the saw, I never really agreed that it's always the safest way.


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## Kottonwood

> I was tired, it was winding on down to the end of the day and somehow I misjudged where to make the back cut and made it about 4" higher than i needed. Sure enough I heard the thing cracking and starting to move, I prepared myself for the recoil in the branch as all that weight separated and all of the sudden... BAM.



How far were you into your backcut when the thing snapped? I always check my cuts as I am cutting, especially when I am getting tired and my cuts are sloppier. I'll recut if the cut is turning out bad. I'll even move up the branch and cut a new notch if I cut one that is angled incorrectly and I don't feel it's fixable.

Also how deep was your notch? It seems like if your notch was deep enough it still would have snapped there even if your backcut was to high.

The "jump cut" that Dan is referring to is a great cut to use when you are dropping something straight and don't need to put any swing on it. Just make an undercut about as far as you can up the branch before the bar pinches, usually around 2/3 up on smaller branches, branches of that size you just have to judge it. Then start a top cut either right on top of the other cut or slightly higher, as you cut the branch simply snaps off. It works great and is a quicker cut to make than a notch cut. 

The notch cut you were using is best if you want to swing the limb. You should be tied in from above when you make this cut. This doesn't work well on dead wood and each tree is slightly different. You put an open face notch at about a forty five degree angle towards the ground in the direction you want the limb to swing and make a back cut. The more holding wood you leave at the top the more it will swing. If you get really good at this you can judge exactly where the limb will drop by changing the angles of your notch. Try this out on some safe limbs before you go trying to dodge garages and fences with it.

Hope this helps and be safe.

-Keith

ps I've always referred to Dan's "jump cut" as a snap cut. I am sure there are a million names for it. I call the other one a hinge cut.


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## chad556

Good advice Keith, thanks for the input. To answer your question I was actually finished with the back cut. I had just pulled my saw away, the limb started creaking and moving, and I was getting ready to deal with the jolt of the branch separating. Thank god I didnt turn the saw off yet like I sometimes do. I really don't think I could have gotten it started again to cut myself free. I did have a little 8" folding handsaw but it was hooked onto the back of my harness with a little keychain carabiner, I probably could have gotten it open in time and cut the rope with it but like I said as far as speed and convienence go there is nothing better than a running 200T in your hands to get you out of a tough spot like that.

I will have to try out that "jump cut" (snap cut, breakaway cut, etc). I have know about it and used it as a means for taking out small limbs and especally when working on evergreens (to drop branches straight down so they dont swing into me) Never thought of trying it on large hardwoods. I will have to test it out (safely of course)

I always use two points of connection when the saw is on, but I have to agree with you, it isnt always the safest thing to do. In this case however I did have another branch i could have tied into(you can see it just above the red line in my pic). In the future though, you can bet I'm keeping my cuts cleaner and my lanyard out of harms way.


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## flushcut

chad556 said:


> I will have to try out that "jump cut" (snap cut, breakaway cut, etc). I have know about it and used it as a means for taking out small limbs and especally when working on evergreens (to drop branches straight down so they dont swing into me) Never thought of trying it on large hardwoods. I will have to test it out (safely of course)


 
To make that cut your cuts must line up perfectly. In order to drop big wood you must make your under cut deep enough close to one half nip the sides i.e. cut the sap wood off and come down from the top as fast as your saw will cut. The reason it is usually called a jump cut is that the limb will pop or jump off the stub. You may want to get The Working Climber DVD series by Gerald F. Beranek it may help you out. I would highly recommend working with an experienced climber for a bit to learn from. You can teach yourself this kind of work but as you know mistakes can kill you!


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## NCTREE

flushcut said:


> To make that cut your cuts must line up perfectly. In order to drop big wood you must make your under cut deep enough close to one half nip the sides i.e. cut the sap wood off and come down from the top as fast as your saw will cut. The reason it is usually called a jump cut is that the limb will pop or jump off the stub. You may want to get The Working Climber DVD series by Gerald F. Beranek it may help you out. I would highly recommend working with an experienced climber for a bit to learn from. You can teach yourself this kind of work but as you know mistakes can kill you!


 
I agree, The notch should be deep enough and very narrow, no 45's unless you are roping it and want it to swing a little. 45's work better on limbs that are facing upright like top leaders. I awlays cut as fast as I can on those horizontal limbs and keep cutting untill the limb breaks off, no waiting for the limb to start cracking. Waiting for the limb to go itself can cause tearouts on the edges of the notch that can peel and cause the climber to be pulled into the tree if he's lanyard in right underneath the cut, especially on those fiberous trees like oak. Sometime I like to leave a stub on the top farther back from the cut im making to lanyard into so if it does tear im good to go. Good lesson for ya chad, glad you posted it. Lots of great and knowledgable opinions on here.


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## treemandan

TreeCo said:


> The bottom line here is never have your lanyard around a large horizontal piece you are cutting. #### just happens sometimes and when it does you are much better off if your life support is elsewhere. Even if you had to perch on a limb with overhead support and were to take a swing if you lost your balance you'd be better off than being a part of what went wrong. Don't overlook the fact that often a ground worker can hold the tail of the climber's rope keeping it out of the drop zone and at the same time aid in positioning and minimizing climber swing if it comes down to it. Sometimes when 'bombing out' lots of big wood I'll have the tail of my climbing line in a rope bag on my hip just so I can stay entirely above the 'happenings'.


 
Is that a rule? I didn't know. Personally I feel comfortable strapping in to a limb like that and letting her rip... I mean jump... or whatever. Its a bit of work getting a good undercut in but by the time its done I have good results.
Also, if you have a solid tip then you can wrap the lanyard around a little sucker or twig to help keep you in good postion. You do have to be in good postion to set a good undercut on a limb like that without getting the saw stuck. Every once in a while I get it stuck, I just get another 20.
The one time I got squuzed was from a mishap on a pole. And Yeah, it would have ripped my scrawny ass in half if the cards weren't played as they were. It hurt a little and it actually compacted the turds in my intestines.

Now the jump and snap are not the same cut. Perhaps you could post a good example pic TreeCo? Your good at that kind of stuff.

I will try to explain:

the snap is best used on verticle poles. You make a shallow face cut, don't go deeper than the bar. The backcut is above the face cut and when it starts to close jam a piece of bark in there to hold it open and continue to cut ( but not all the way through) until you know you can put the saw down and snap the thing off easily and drop it where you want it. No need to to hold it with your hand as you cut, keep them both on the saw.

The jump is best for horizontal limbs, you make the deepest facecut you can without sticking the bar. You can widen the kerf of the facecut as you cut deeper into it. You have to be fast getting the saw out, you have to have complete control. Doing it with a 20 you can use one hand without fear of harm. Same with the backcut BUT position is everything. Once the facecut is set the backcut is made a few inches below/behind the facecut. You don't want to have yer face to close when it goes off. Done right the limb will jump like a fish upwards then the butt will fall like stone.

These two cuts used at the proper time and done right will eliminate getting yer #### packed in... and that is something no man wants to admit have happen.:msp_crying:


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## tree md

This is one scenario where I normally will not abide by the two attachment points while making a cut rule. Actually, I don't like dropping large, whole limbs like that anymore period. I used to do it and have had a couple nearly come back and bite me... And one that did. It is usually faster for the overall operation to just walk out and cut the limb in manageable pieces for the guys on the ground. Saves work on the ground and keeps them from having to cut pieces on the ground where a large chain is more likely to become dulled.

I will not tie into a large lateral when making a cut anymore. I'm talking about on a huge limb, of course I will use my lanyard for positioning when I have to get way out there on one. I always get above the cut and just lean out on my climbing line. I am of the belief that it is safer to only use one tie in in this situation than tying in to the piece you are cutting. I wish I could still find the OSHA fatality report of the guy who was tied into a big Oak limb that split all the way behind him, taking him down with it as it went. He was also tied in with a climb line above but the weight from the limb was just too much for the line and it snapped, sending him to the driveway below still tied to the limb. 

Glad to hear you were not seriously injured. Stay safe.


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## NCTREE

TreeCo said:


> The bottom line here is never have your lanyard around a large horizontal piece you are cutting. #### just happens sometimes and when it does you are much better off if your life support is elsewhere.


 
It did that on a cut one time working for Dan and he gave me a little #### for it. I felt safer not being tied in, better to get out of the way if it didn't go the way it was suppose to. I guess every situation is different and thats where the more experience you have the better to predict whats gonna happen.


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## chad556

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I have to say that I have learned a lot just by reading other peoples' experiences (which is really what I think this forum is all about) Safety does come with experience that makes perfect sense so thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

I snapped a couple photos today of the tree and the branch that almost ended me, and then I promptly dropped that SOB. I would have done that from the start but that branch had to go before it could be dropped and I figured once I was up that far why not finish it right. Just for a point of reference the piece I dropped was at least twice as big as the little branch right by the tear












You can see the hinge did almost work, it closed anyway. I got slammed in a way that my chin was right where the back cut was. After I caught my breath and before i came down I made that last cut to finish off the tear and drop the branch to the ground. I didn't want to descend just to have the branch come loose and finish me off.


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## treemandan

chad556 said:


> It was just a standard notch, not too wide, about 45 degrees. Looking at it from the ground it was way too small also, only about a quarter of the way in. And the back cut was aimed to be straight into the apex of the notch. Somehow it ended up 4" up the branch, just one of those things I guess, mistakes happen. You can bet I will take the extra second to double check from now on though.
> 
> BTW what exactly is a jump?


 
I hope I explained the jump and snap cuts well enough BUT it does sound like your notch was way to big. Just take out a little sliver of a notch in a situation like this. 45's are for felling on the ground, generally not needed or advised while in the tree.
I would say a notch about an inch wide would have been better but you still need to aim the backcut with more precision than you did and that is what seems to be the cause of this accident.


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## treemandan

chad556 said:


> Thanks everyone for the feedback, I have to say that I have learned a lot just by reading other peoples' experiences (which is really what I think this forum is all about) Safety does come with experience that makes perfect sense so thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
> 
> I snapped a couple photos today of the tree and the branch that almost ended me, and then I promptly dropped that SOB. I would have done that from the start but that branch had to go before it could be dropped and I figured once I was up that far why not finish it right. Just for a point of reference the piece I dropped was at least twice as big as the little branch right by the tear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the hinge did almost work, it closed anyway. I got slammed in a way that my chin was right where the back cut was. After I caught my breath and before i came down I made that last cut to finish off the tear and drop the branch to the ground. I didn't want to descend just to have the branch come loose and finish me off.


 
Simply put: you peeled a limb onto you lanyard. That can't happen again of course but no matter how you try one day you will unintentionally peel another branch. That is a matter of fact.
A lot of people say not to use the lanyard in these situations are there are some situation where you shouldn't use your lanyard but they are few and far between. The lanyard holds you in position so you can control the cut. Without it you have to compensate and that could mean you have to overcompansate which isn't good because you are adding risk.
What you need to do is protect your lanyard at every cut. It looks like you could have found a good cutting position and secured your nessasary lanyard to the little limb to the right of the peel where everything would have been fine even with the way things went.
That is the key, use the lanyard, just keep it protected.


Also if you are out there like that making a cut and believe that by not using your lanyard you are being safer weel... YER NOT! Sure, you won't be peeling a limb onto your lanyard but one day you will slip midcut, fall into your saw and go careening back towards the trunk and get slammed just as bad. Why choose either? There are a million ways to set your lanyard that will keep it protected, be creative.


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## squad143

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Were you using the top rope as well? Does everyone here always double tie in when cutting? I personally don't. In that instance he was less safe than being just tied in on his top rope. In the past I had a boss that always wanted you to be double tied in when running the saw, I never really agreed that it's always the safest way.


 
I almost always use two tie-in points. It is always nice to have a back up in case "stuff" happens.

I believe his TIP was in the other tree, therefore he would need something to stop him from swinging back to his tie in point. In this case, I believe his flipline was wrapped around the branch he was cutting to support his weight and stop him from swinging back.

If possible, a tie-in point (or another) in the tree he was taking the limb from, would have been safer. Red arrow in pic below shows possible TIP. 






This extra TIP would have given him the benefit of better work positioning (no need to be tied into the branch he was cutting). Although it would take more time to set this up, this would have afforded him to work above and away from his cut. (Perhaps even limb walk out).

Usually an accident is a combination of errors.

Thanks Chad566 for sharing this with us. It takes courage to show your mistakes so others may learn from your "experience".

Glad your still with us.:msp_thumbup:


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## treemandan

TreeXpert said:


> I am trying to get the guys to show me a little climbing soon and this is definitely a scenario I am happy to know to avoid!:msp_thumbup:


 
Not for nothing dude but when newbies go around naming themselves experts is kinda insulting... and a little confusing. Basically false advertisment.

Oh Lord, I will probably get into trouble saying that... but I did anyway.


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## treemandan

TreeCo said:


> .....a little confusing?
> 
> 
> ......How about a fellow named Ben going by the user name Treemandan!


 
dan (plural dans)

1.A rank of black belt in martial arts
2.Someone who has achieved a level of black belt

I ain't no newbie and you need to check the diagonal Luv ya!


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## treemandan

TreeXpert said:


> TreeXpertatlanta.com My employer.. I just managed to snag a cool sn on here:jester:


 
Thanks for clearing that up, you can certainly understand my concern.


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## lego1970

This is how I do things. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how I've been doing it. 

When I am cutting a large horizontal limb, I'll tie in with my lanyard several feet back from the cut, useing just one end as a choker. That way there is no loop dangling below for the limb to catch and also if it does peel back it hopefull it will just open up that choker until the limb pops off intead of squeezing me into the limb. You also have to be careful that if the limb does take your lanyard that it's not so big to break your climbing rope or you and the limb are going for a ride. 

On large limbs I make my undercut w/out notch and the top cut directly on top.

On Snap cuts, I cut from side to side, not facecut and backcut, that way I don't have to worry about pinching a bar. Then snap it off by hand. That cut can be used on verticle, 45 degree or horzontal limbs.


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## treemandan

lego1970 said:


> This is how I do things. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how I've been doing it.
> 
> When I am cutting a large horizontal limb, I'll tie in with my lanyard several feet back from the cut, useing just one end as a choker. That way there is no loop dangling below for the limb to catch and also if it does peel back it hopefull it will just open up that choker until the limb pops off intead of squeezing me into the limb. You also have to be careful that if the limb does take your lanyard that it's not so big to break your climbing rope or you and the limb are going for a ride.
> 
> On large limbs I make my undercut w/out notch and the top cut directly on top.
> 
> On Snap cuts, I cut from side to side, not facecut and backcut, that way I don't have to worry about pinching a bar. Then snap it off by hand. That cut can be used on verticle, 45 degree or horzontal limbs.


 
Some good techiques there.


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## squad143

Expert:

Ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure. :msp_biggrin:


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## chad556

lego1970 said:


> This is how I do things. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just how I've been doing it.
> 
> When I am cutting a large horizontal limb, I'll tie in with my lanyard several feet back from the cut, useing just one end as a choker. That way there is no loop dangling below for the limb to catch and also if it does peel back it hopefull it will just open up that choker until the limb pops off intead of squeezing me into the limb. You also have to be careful that if the limb does take your lanyard that it's not so big to break your climbing rope or you and the limb are going for a ride.
> 
> On large limbs I make my undercut w/out notch and the top cut directly on top.
> 
> On Snap cuts, I cut from side to side, not facecut and backcut, that way I don't have to worry about pinching a bar. Then snap it off by hand. That cut can be used on verticle, 45 degree or horzontal limbs.


 
Using one end as a choker you mean you wrap the lanyard around the limb and and then attach the snap back to the rope? I kind of like that idea the worst that could happen is your lanyard gets destroyed and you get a nasty jolt, much better than getting squeezed. Thanks for the advice!


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## lego1970

treemandan said:


> Some good techiques there.



Thanks.


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## lego1970

chad556 said:


> Using one end as a choker you mean you wrap the lanyard around the limb and and then attach the snap back to the rope? I kind of like that idea the worst that could happen is your lanyard gets destroyed and you get a nasty jolt, much better than getting squeezed. Thanks for the advice!



Yes, that's how I do it. Hope your bruises are getting better and thanks for posting this. It's how we learn.


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## chad556

Today was my first climb since the accident and I tried out some of the new techniques I learned. I was very paranoid about peeling another branch but I kept my lanyard out of harms way when I could. The tree was a black walnut I think, I'm not great at twig ID. I even snapped some more pics (gotta have something to do up there while my guys screw around on the ground). Here is my first trial of the choker lanyard technique, pretty slick I must say.






And here is my setup for removals. I would say 95% of the time I maintain 3 points of connection (even when working my way down I keep my climbing line around near my feet just in case both my fliplines fail). It just feels more secure that way, I don't know if its right or wrong or complete overkill. Anyway, were all still learning a thing or too here so comments and criticism are welcome:






P.s. I know my blue carabiner is cross-loaded, I fixed it before putting my weight on it though dont worry.


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## mpatch

holy way too much crap on that saddle

and btw side loading a aluminum rope snap is a terrible idea and no hardhat for the groundie, two lanyards is overkill and useless in most situations, lanyard same color as climbing line is a bad idea, if you want a steel core get a maxiflip or something not crimped like the one you have, put the rope grabs facing down not up


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## mpatch

mpatch said:


> holy way too much crap on that saddle
> 
> and btw side loading a aluminum rope snap is a terrible idea and no hardhat for the groundie, two lanyards is overkill and useless in most situations, lanyard same color as climbing line is a bad idea, if you want a steel core get a maxiflip or something not crimped like the one you have, put the rope grabs facing down not up


 
and most of all you will never be a "good" climber or tree person until you learn to trust your gear and know what it can/should do and can't/shouldn't do

and try some pole gaffs


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## lync

Glad your ok. My opinion switchout the rope grabs for a vt lanyard adjuster. It can be released under tension If you choke the limb and it splits, your snap will ride up and release the vt also move the lanyard adjuster to your bride, and off your hip this will take your body out of the loop


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## ropensaddle

I had that happen early in my career too. I got even luckier or I would still be in a wheel chair. I was using an old ancient line man strap that evidently was a bit rotten because it pulled me into the limb racked me good and the strap broke which kept the 18" diameter limb from crushing me! I figured out a way that will never happen again on my own! I use a plain buck strap in those possible split outs and clip both snaps int the middle d's or one side d. That way if she splits the pull stops at the d! If you use both side d's your going to be crushed sometime jmo.


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## flushcut

I tend to cut some of the weight off the limb first if it's really heavy.


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## lego1970

chad556 said:


> Today was my first climb since the accident and I tried out some of the new techniques I learned. I was very paranoid about peeling another branch but I kept my lanyard out of harms way when I could. The tree was a black walnut I think, I'm not great at twig ID. I even snapped some more pics (gotta have something to do up there while my guys screw around on the ground). Here is my first trial of the choker lanyard technique, pretty slick I must say.



I'm sure you know but if not keep in mind that doing that choke thing is not fool proof and not how the engineers designed that snap to be loaded. While I'm sure it would hold up fine, it's kinda a last resort technique. Also, sometimes you can get in a position where you won't be able to reach it to unsnap it and you'll have to choose between taking the other end off your saddle and getting your lanyard later, or taking off your climbing line and have a ground man sling it back to you once you climb to a better area. I would like to see what Lync is talking about (I'm behind the times when it comes to gear). Sounds like a better option. 

As far as being tied in three places. My geuss is that human error is probably one of the main causes of death. Equipment failure seems pretty rare. As mentioned, trust your rope and lanyard. IMO, having that many peices of gear could easily get you in more trouble from accidently hooking up the wrong carabiner on the wrong D-ring. 

I could be wrong, but from the picture that bark doesn't look like Black Walnut. Looks too smooth. 

Anyway, just wanted to throw that out to you. Good luck and take care.


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## lego1970

ropensaddle said:


> I had that happen early in my career too. I got even luckier or I would still be in a wheel chair. I was using an old ancient line man strap that evidently was a bit rotten because it pulled me into the limb racked me good and the strap broke which kept the 18" diameter limb from crushing me! I figured out a way that will never happen again on my own! I use a plain buck strap in those possible split outs and clip both snaps int the middle d's or one side d. That way if she splits the pull stops at the d! If you use both side d's your going to be crushed sometime jmo.



I still have a few of those but they are getting old and I wouldn't trust them anymore, otherwise I kinda like them better. I loved that I could double wrap a limb with an "X" criss cross on the back side and it wouldn't slide if a little tension was on it. I can't get my rope lanyards to grip like that. Last summer while climbing a Silver Maple after a rain, my gaff kicked out and I slid a good 5' before my rope lanyard caught a limb. Left a few marks. 

I read on Wesspur that they shouldn't be used for tree work? Why is that?


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## ropensaddle

lego1970 said:


> I still have a few of those but they are getting old and I wouldn't trust them anymore, otherwise I kinda like them better. I loved that I could double wrap a limb with an "X" criss cross on the back side and it wouldn't slide if a little tension was on it. I can't get my rope lanyards to grip like that. Last summer while climbing a Silver Maple after a rain, my gaff kicked out and I slid a good 5' before my rope lanyard caught a limb. Left a few marks.
> 
> I read on Wesspur that they shouldn't be used for tree work? Why is that?


 
I think it's bull spit. I am talkin the fiber type, I think you are too. I can see not using the lineman strap but the buck strap was awesome imo. you could throw it over shoulder and clip it into d and it would stay out of the way till you needed it.


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## ropensaddle

ropensaddle said:


> I think it's bull spit. I am talkin the fiber type, I think you are too. I can see not using the lineman strap but the buck strap was awesome imo. you could throw it over shoulder and clip it into d and it would stay out of the way till you needed it.


 
Unlike the dam flip line bs:rant: I like neat clean in my gear


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## flushcut

chad556 said:


>


 
All the gear in the world is not going to make you a good sawyer. I think you need more practice or somebody to show you how. If you had made the proper cuts in the first place you wouldn't be here telling us how you almost got squished. How you cut a limb or trunk or a chunk of wood is very important. In a nutshell your cut must be right all of the time. Think of it this way every cut you make wether it is aloft or on the ground is practice and make them perfect.


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## lego1970

ropensaddle said:


> I think it's bull spit. I am talkin the fiber type, I think you are too. I can see not using the lineman strap but the buck strap was awesome imo. you could throw it over shoulder and clip it into d and it would stay out of the way till you needed it.



I was talking about the yellow, (about 1.5") wide, straps with a snap at each end and an adjustable metal clip that kinda looked like this.... _ 

Sorry, sometimes I get confused between all the different terminology and pieces of gear that was used before my time, and the new stuff that I haven't been exposed to. 

Thanks for your time and sorry if I'm still getting it confused._


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## lync

Working with smaller loads is safer, but big pieces go faster. On a large horizontal limb like the one you cut the weight and torque of the limb caused the limb to split before your top cut was finished too much weight from the limb supported only by the bottom half, from the pith down. In my opinion this is not a situation for a hinge . My solution would be to plunge cut from the center of the limb down and stop cutting an inch or 2 from the bottom. Top cut has to be an exact match or you risk the piece taking the saw to the ground. The bottom will tear slightly..for what its worth. Thats not a home depot rope on the back of your saddle is it?
Pm if you want to meet I'm not far from SI


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## ropensaddle

flushcut said:


> All the gear in the world is not going to make you a good sawyer. I think you need more practice or somebody to show you how. If you had made the proper cuts in the first place you wouldn't be here telling us how you almost got squished. How you cut a limb or trunk or a chunk of wood is very important. In a nutshell your cut must be right all of the time. Think of it this way every cut you make wether it is aloft or on the ground is practice and make them perfect.


 
Well now the limb I was cutting that almost ripped me in half except for my strap breaking the limb was cut proper. 

Several things caused my ordeal #1 large horizontal limb #2 strap hooked at each side as in your picture. #3 proper cut under cut and kerfed. #3a undercut limb split quickly before reaching the undercut somewhat due to saws of the period but mostly due to extreme tension of the long branch. It is not just the cut, so case in point is; if you clip the middle d's together or clip to middle d with both ends of strap in high risk split out situations it will at least protect you from being crushed.


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## ropensaddle

ropensaddle said:


> Well now the limb I was cutting that almost ripped me in half except for my strap breaking the limb was cut proper.
> 
> Several things caused my ordeal #1 large horizontal limb #2 strap hooked at each side as in your picture. #3 proper cut under cut. #3a though undercut limb split quickly before reaching the undercut somewhat due to saws of the period but mostly due to extreme tension of the long branch. It is not just the cut so case in point is if you clip the middle d's together or clip to middle d with both ends of strap in high risk split out situations it will at least protect you from being crushed.


 
Because if strap terminates at middle d or d's and they are clipped together the pull will stop there and your body is not used as the strap. Another thing that can make for a bad day is to get your hand pinned by the rigging rope and I also experienced this before and all I can say is it sucks.


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## flushcut

I hear ya rope I get your technique and kind of like it. I am glad you ended up being ok.


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## mpatch

ropensaddle said:


> Well now the limb I was cutting that almost ripped me in half except for my strap breaking the limb was cut proper.


 
Not to be a wise a$$ but it wasn't cut correctly if it almost killed/hurt you. You can know "how" to make every cut in the world but knowing where to make a cut is the real challenge.


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## ropensaddle

mpatch said:


> Not to be a wise a$$ but it wasn't cut correctly if it almost killed/hurt you. You can know "how" to make every cut in the world but knowing where to make a cut is the real challenge.


 
Not to be a wiser ass you were not there in 1985 when this cut was made. I have cut literally millions of limbs just like it since and most did just right but unfortunately wood can be unpredictable. Many times ice storms partially split a limb and it heals concealing the wound which likely is what happened to the Quercus rubra I was in. Why you could have a point I could of limb walked twenty five feet and pieced the limb back in little pieces you would not find many do that now. Why because it normally is unnecessary. I only had a few years under my belt then but it was years of twenty trees per day and I was in the best shape then. Mpatch please don't attempt the perfect routeen with me, because I know the truth and remember when I thought I knew it all. Modulus of rupture can be accounted for but hidden defects without resistograph sometimes cant. I know how to protect this event from causing me harm and practice it in high risk cuts.


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## chad556

lync said:


> Working with smaller loads is safer, but big pieces go faster. On a large horizontal limb like the one you cut the weight and torque of the limb caused the limb to split before your top cut was finished too much weight from the limb supported only by the bottom half, from the pith down. In my opinion this is not a situation for a hinge . My solution would be to plunge cut from the center of the limb down and stop cutting an inch or 2 from the bottom. Top cut has to be an exact match or you risk the piece taking the saw to the ground. The bottom will tear slightly..for what its worth. Thats not a home depot rope on the back of your saddle is it?
> Pm if you want to meet I'm not far from SI



I like that technique too, never have much of a chance to use it though because most of the time I take small branches, but at least in this case it probably would have worked better than what i did.

My theory for under cuts has always been that i would match the degree of the wedge with how quickly I want the piece to snap off. My idea of a perfect cut was a 30-45 degree wedge that would detach from the branch half way down its swing, rotate to just past vertical in mid air and then land on its tip, causing minimal damage to the turf before it flipped over butt end facing out ready for my groundies to grab it and drag it away. Thats how I've been doing it for a while now and it works great every time (except this time where I will be the first to agree, I should have used a different technique).

I also tried out a snap/jump cut the other day from a safe location of course, I wasnt tied to it in any way and I had a safe getaway. The branch was about 30' long 5" diameter and was pointing about 60-70 degrees off the horizontal. I cut fast but less than 2 inches into the back cut my undercut closed but didnt break and the limb tore about 6 feet down. I was afraid the thing would barber chair. Of course I was long gone on the other side of the trunk and above by that time. This was in that same black walnut(?) It seems like it is mainly the weight that causes the ripping correct i.e. a light branch will not rip no matter how you cut whereas a huge one will tear unless your cut is dead on perfect?

Oh and yes that is a $7.99 home depot rope on my harness. Don't worry I don't do any heavy rigging or life support activities with it. I use it mainly to raise and lower gear. I have also used it to pull branches the way I need them to go from the ground. Or once i used it to have my groundies pull down a limb that got hung up in another tree. I almost always take it up with me its, light and I don't even notice it most of the time. Also the two lanyards I got into using mainly when climbing multi stemmed trees. I always like to be above the piece I'm cutting when possible so when I am out on another stem away from my TIP I use the alternating lanyard technique to get above the branch i want to cut. I would just use a 2 in 1 but since I already have 2 lanyards i just use what I have. Once I get to the top and start coming down it just seems dumb to take one of my lanyards off and just let it swing where it can get gaffed or tangled up so i just keep them both on the tree. I know I'm a noob but there has to be someone else doing it at least kind of like this right?


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## lync

From the photos I see you climb on a splittail w/a vt hitch. Those micro grabs won't release under tension a vt will. Can get you out of a a tight spot. Instead of the second lanyard use the other end of your climbing rope to make a second climbing system, alternate between that and 1 lanyard once you climb out on a limb or another leader establish a second tie in. with 2 climbing rope tie ins you can put the lanyard away (you left the other 2nd one on the ground) no need to clip and unclip just balance between both climbing line ends as you work down. Lighter is better less fatigue less mistakes more energy. Leg protection is a good idea, but the chaps I find are sloppy in the tree the straps catch branches. Get the boss to blow a 100 bucks on a pair of protective pants. Always go for the highest safe tie in point 4 inch minimum. the rest of the climb will be easier if you do . Good luck


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*splitting*

In such problem limbs splitting. And more weight on the end they are quicker to split.
Use one or two short ropes. I use timber knot-simple to ty. Timber knot then your lanyard . Will stop limb from splitting into your personal space. On huge limbs ty one on each side of your cut area. No splits either way. Work slick and whole lot safer than just firing up chainsaw.


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## ropensaddle

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> In such problem limbs splitting. And more weight on the end they are quicker to split.
> Use one or two short ropes. I use timber knot-simple to ty. Timber knot then your lanyard . Will stop limb from splitting into your personal space. On huge limbs ty one on each side of your cut area. No splits either way. Work slick and whole lot safer than just firing up chainsaw.


 
yeah done that too just faster for me to use middle d's but cinchin a timber or ratchet strap may be better in some ways.


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## tree md

OK, so what would be the sense in throwing a flip line around this limb if I were to make a cut right here (regardless of the size)???

It's not rocket science guys...


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## squad143

tree md said:


> OK, so what would be the sense in throwing a flip line around this limb if I were to make a cut right here (regardless of the size)???
> 
> It's not rocket science guys...


 
:agree2:

A higher TIP in the tree that the original poster was cutting would have eliminated the need for a flipline/laynard around the limb he was cutting.


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## Dutch cut

tree md said:


> OK, so what would be the sense in throwing a flip line around this limb if I were to make a cut right here (regardless of the size)???
> 
> It's not rocket science guys...
> 
> 
> I think most people would because OSHA says you have to. But I agree with your point, a compromise would to double crotch out of a lower branch with the end of your climb line, get your two tie ins and be free of the limb.


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## Ghillie

Glad you're alright.

I believe someone mentioned not using a mechanical ascender for your flipline?


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## deevo

squad143 said:


> :agree2:
> 
> A higher TIP in the tree that the original poster was cutting would have eliminated the need for a flipline/laynard around the limb he was cutting.


 
or using a bucket truck for that one!


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## fatkoala1

If your going to use two flip lines, how about having the rope grabs on opposite sides of the saddle. To help avoid stupid mistakes when fatigued. 
just my two cents


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## chad556

fatkoala1 said:


> If your going to use two flip lines, how about having the rope grabs on opposite sides of the saddle. To help avoid stupid mistakes when fatigued.
> just my two cents


 
I used to do it that way but the tails kept getting caught up on my saw on my left so now I do both on the right. Don't get me wrong, great point there. I now use a hitch and pulley on my rope lanyard like lync suggested. One adjuster is mechanical (Maxi-flip wire core) one is rope (yale bandit so it contrasts with my climbing line)and if I ever get fatigued enough to forget which is which then uncliping the wrong lanyard would be the least of my worries.

Ghillie, wish I had seen your post earlier. My climbing instructions did not include the safe use of a lanyard. I figured out the possibility of crushing myself on my own before I even went up my first tree and should have known better. There is no substitute for first hand experience though. Scary how fast it happens and how bad it is. Luckily we both made it through without permanent damage. I've learned my lesson and moved on and I know that the next time something like this happens I will die. So, I am simply not going to let it happen again. Thanks guys, as I have said before the stuff I learn on this forum could very well be the reason i'm still breathing.


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## mjellison

thanks for sharing your story with us. It's always good to have reminders of things to look out for. I'm glad you're okay.


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## Sunrise Guy

tree md said:


> OK, so what would be the sense in throwing a flip line around this limb if I were to make a cut right here (regardless of the size)???
> 
> It's not rocket science guys...



Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. It takes a while to get the logic of tie-ins and rigging down to a fine art, and even then we all ef up once in a while. The classic case is the fellow who literally wrote the book on the art and science of practical rigging and then had a tree he was rigging down collapse under him and kill him. End of the day moves are usually what get you, although first cuts can do it, too. Of course there's always the middle of the day stuff------


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## MISteve

mpatch said:


> Pretty darn sure that's not a jump cut that you are describing. It would be a breakaway cut that you are describing. And FYI don't make the cut's on top of each other unless you like to drop saws out of trees.



New climber reading this post. Good stuff. I dropped a saw cutting a pine branch about 10 in in diameter.Saw got yanked out of my hand. I thought the bucking spike caught. Is it how I made the cut that did it?


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## ropensaddle

MISteve said:


> New climber reading this post. Good stuff. I dropped a saw cutting a pine branch about 10 in in diameter.Saw got yanked out of my hand. I thought the bucking spike caught. Is it how I made the cut that did it?



No fiber gets in between bar and chain usually, btw I find cutting ahead on top cut the leading cause of saw hang. if cuts match hardly ever hang imo. It sucks to have a 13 inch top hanging from you caught in saw and yes I have had that happen. It was a bit cubersome getting out of that pickle too


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## ropensaddle

tree md said:


> OK, so what would be the sense in throwing a flip line around this limb if I were to make a cut right here (regardless of the size)???
> 
> It's not rocket science guys...



None but 2 tips rule can cause problems but we all know the climber is in the tree and usually sets his own rule.

Sometimes 2 tips can be down right dangerous like when tied into one tree and in an unstable second tree I want an option to bail


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## lone wolf

Reminds me of this guy that got his climbing line in the disk chipper and it started winding him in like a winch and the tree was bending like a SOB .I kept telling him to cut it with his saw but he would not he was also wearing a safety lanyard so he would be held.finally the rope got cut by the chipper and let go!Thats one reason you use a safety lanyard huh!


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## ropensaddle

lone wolf said:


> Reminds me of this guy that got his climbing line in the disk chipper and it started winding him in like a winch and the tree was bending like a SOB .I kept telling him to cut it with his saw but he would not he was also wearing a safety lanyard so he would be held.finally the rope got cut by the chipper and let go!Thats one reason you use a safety lanyard huh!



Well yeah but I was talking in a different scenario 99.9 % yes but there is the one in a million situations I feel more comfortable being able to escape! Not as a practice mind you, merely in situations where it could put you in more danger utilizing the lanyard. Rules are a great tool in learning and usually keep you safe and are not meant to be discarded. Very few times have i felt safer without using my lanyard but there have been maybe three times in 30 years I elected not too. One such time actually saved me from injury as the top let loose and I safely swung clear!


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## climberjones

chad556 said:


> Good advice Keith, thanks for the input. To answer your question I was actually finished with the back cut. I had just pulled my saw away, the limb started creaking and moving, and I was getting ready to deal with the jolt of the branch separating. Thank god I didnt turn the saw off yet like I sometimes do. I really don't think I could have gotten it started again to cut myself free. I did have a little 8" folding handsaw but it was hooked onto the back of my harness with a little keychain carabiner, I probably could have gotten it open in time and cut the rope with it but like I said as far as speed and convienence go there is nothing better than a running 200T in your hands to get you out of a tough spot like that.
> 
> I will have to try out that "jump cut" (snap cut, breakaway cut, etc). I have know about it and used it as a means for taking out small limbs and especally when working on evergreens (to drop branches straight down so they dont swing into me) Never thought of trying it on large hardwoods. I will have to test it out (safely of course)
> 
> I always use two points of connection when the saw is on, but I have to agree with you, it isnt always the safest thing to do. In this case however I did have another branch i could have tied into(you can see it just above the red line in my pic). In the future though, you can bet I'm keeping my cuts cleaner and my lanyard out of harms way.


In the future will you still tie in to the same limb your removing ?(just wondering)


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## chad556

I still do tie into limbs I am removing when I have to, but I am lot more cautious. It is always on my mind when I am positioning myself to make a cut. I still always use two points of connection, the only thing that has changed is how careful I am about choosing where those connections will be placed.

If i was in that exact same tree again, I would either tie into the other branch that I was not cutting or I would have climbed out farther on the limb and removed it in smaller sections to reduce the chances of a peel. There is no replacement for experience sometimes, i'm just glad that in this situation i was able to gain some without killing myself.


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## ropensaddle

chad556 said:


> I still do tie into limbs I am removing when I have to, but I am lot more cautious. It is always on my mind when I am positioning myself to make a cut. I still always use two points of connection, the only thing that has changed is how careful I am about choosing where those connections will be placed.
> 
> If i was in that exact same tree again, I would either tie into the other branch that I was not cutting or I would have climbed out farther on the limb and removed it in smaller sections to reduce the chances of a peel. There is no replacement for experience sometimes, i'm just glad that in this situation i was able to gain some without killing myself.



Amen bro it's highly likely you won't do that again lol. As long as its terminated to one point like one side d or the middle d"s It will not crush you or rip u in half. Smaller is better though in many cases imo  Be safe bro.


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## flushcut

chad556 said:


> If i was in that exact same tree again, I would either tie into the other branch that I was not cutting or I would have climbed out farther on the limb and removed it in smaller sections to reduce the chances of a peel. There is no replacement for experience sometimes, i'm just glad that in this situation i was able to gain some without killing myself.



Don't forget to make the proper cut. I think that was more the problem than your tie in. Stay safe!


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## Golf

squad143 said:


> I almost always use two tie-in points. It is always nice to have a back up in case "stuff" happens.
> 
> I believe his TIP was in the other tree, therefore he would need something to stop him from swinging back to his tie in point. In this case, I believe his flipline was wrapped around the branch he was cutting to support his weight and stop him from swinging back.
> 
> If possible, a tie-in point (or another) in the tree he was taking the limb from, would have been safer. Red arrow in pic below shows possible TIP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This extra TIP would have given him the benefit of better work positioning (no need to be tied into the branch he was cutting). Although it would take more time to set this up, this would have afforded him to work above and away from his cut. (Perhaps even limb walk out).
> 
> Usually an accident is a combination of errors.
> 
> Thanks Chad566 for sharing this with us. It takes courage to show your mistakes so others may learn from your "experience".
> 
> Glad your still with us.:msp_thumbup:



Lots of good advice in this thread and this is a good one. Also, always cut what you can control and if you can't, then make small cuts.


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## ropensaddle

Golf said:


> Lots of good advice in this thread and this is a good one. Also, always cut what you can control and if you can't, then make small cuts.



Lol i so love my wraptor on those just shoot rope where i wanna cut zip up bada bean then come down and shoot next area of concern I may make a song about it soon


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## ClimbinArbor

ropensaddlenwraptor LMFAO!


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## ropensaddle

ClimbinArbor said:


> ropensaddlenwraptor LMFAO!



Lmao
Yup; but think to yourself do u blame me


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## himiler

Plus one on the pole spikes versus the tree spikes. It is truly nicer to have your boots closer in to the tree. 
Steve


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## TreeSurfer

i like to use this when taking large branches. kinda a cross between a jump and a notch. the piece snaps free but also hinges down and away. its kinda neat.


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*lanyard position*

With the branch junction pictured. There is no need to lanyard into lower limb being cut. Get in a rush and pay the price. Also a short part of old climbline would stop limb ripping to lanyard. Lanyard, timber or cow knot and then cut. Any ripping back is stopped by this rope. On large limb removals being roped out. Have a rope tied on each side of cut. No limb splitting either way!


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