# simple trick for junior climbers, re: accurate back-cuts



## Plasmech (Jan 31, 2009)

Since I've asked about a million questions on this forum, thought I'd try to give back a little. 

I came up with a simple trick for junior guys like me in regards to either felling or blocking down.  (Chances are someone else probably figured this out a long time ago but whatever). After making the face cut and dropping out the "wedge", wrap a piece of high-vis string around the trunk right through the "crotch" of the face cut. When making the back cut, you will know *exactly* where the face cut it. On the ground this is not AS big an issue as when up in the tree. Works great!


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## treemandan (Jan 31, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Since I've asked about a million questions on this forum, thought I'd try to give back a little.
> 
> I came up with a simple trick for junior guys like me in regards to either felling or blocking down. (Chances are someone else probably figured this out a long time ago but whatever). After making the face cut and dropping out the "wedge", wrap a piece of high-vis string around the trunk right through the "crotch" of the face cut. When making the back cut, you will know *exactly* where the face cut it. On the ground this is not AS big an issue as when up in the tree. Works great!



I bet they teach that in dem fancy skools dey got. That would be a great way to demonstrate but I wouldn't want the string there while I cut AND beleive me IT WOULD MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD TO THE BONEHEADS ON THE GROUND ! 
But alas, there will be no time for that [email protected]#$!, you look. you see, then you look and see again then you know. God know we don't need any loose bits of string wafting around the job, that would make me nuts. 
I do expect a groundie to verify the alignment ( more to make sure my bar has made it through the other side) on big wood I can't always see around. I expect it out of common sense even though I know where the bar is. It shows they are on the ball and we are working together. If I have been working with guys awhile and I keep having to stop in the middle of a cut and don't see thumbs up I get pretty pissed. I am telling you this cause you will need to rely on the groundforce unless you are The Force and can do everything by yourself. With experiance you can do more by yourself ( even things you shouldn't ) 
You can screw yourslf real good all the sudden. Sometimes what you mean to do don't happen. I have been fixing up my house: how many boards do you think I miscut? Now it don't fit right. But in the tree? Now YOU don't fit right. Just as in being able to read and cut 1/32 in carpentry you need to be able to read the tree you are working.
But with that you will find a good carpenter will keep in a margin of error. He knows what error might occur he can account for, he is aware of his cut. Its the same with tree work, you need to be in a error margin and you have to know how to get there to be able to account for any error. you also have to watch real close for what the groundies are gonna do to ya- oof!
In carpentry there is a lot to know before you should call yourself a carpenter? ( Allright, I am just gonna stop now before I blow my own mind... again)


You will see, you just need to see where its all at once to learn to get there. You should be well along being comfortable hanging from your rope, moving around and keeping balance. What have you been climbing?


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## Plasmech (Jan 31, 2009)

I look at it like this:


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## clearance (Jan 31, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I look at it like this:



Doesn't look strong enough to hang yourself with.


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## tomtrees58 (Jan 31, 2009)

maybe off a dear stand:jawdrop:


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I look at it like this:



Well I am looking at it with eyes bloodshot and half closed from 16 and half gravity bong hits and it still don't make sense. Man, once you get up there you are gonna forget all about that little red string buddy.
yer still with me right? Am I gonna shoot for 17, you let me know.


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2009)

MAybe its good for demonstration purpose, maybe its good for pulling the tampon outta yer... Naw I just couldn't help it.


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Ingenious!
> 
> Sometimes us guys in the trade are so busy doing the day to day work that we don't give much time to think of how we could make our work safer and more efficient!
> 
> Here's to the brain power that lurks on the fringe of our industry!



I kinda thought they might teach that in something like ArborMaster. I was also kinda impressed but didn't like the thought of that string in my sprocket. What about spray paint?
personally, when I think of tying the string like that I think of doing the opposite but to something that is holding a set of c cups. I had to get that off her chest, I mean my chest.


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## Stihl Alive (Feb 1, 2009)

if the stem is too big to see around I just hold the saw where I think it is until I get a nod fromthe groundie, then blip the throttle and make a line. Same for other side. Then I completely ignore the lines and make the wrong cut and f*&^ everything up.


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## outofmytree (Feb 1, 2009)

Good thinking Plasmech. Ignore Dan he is just jealous he didnt think of it first! I expect you will discard this technique soon enough just like trainer wheels on bikes. (Mine come off next week). In the meantime if it helps you develop an eye for level then go for it.


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## 371groundie (Feb 1, 2009)

have fun cleaning the bits of string from your sprocket, it sucks. sting, tarp strands, plastic bags, they all like to wrap up in there.


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## Dadatwins (Feb 1, 2009)

If there is not a throwball attached to that stuff it stays in the truck. To those are reading this thread thinking it is a good idea, the answer is NOT.


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## Ghillie (Feb 1, 2009)

Dadatwins said:


> If there is not a throwball attached to that stuff it stays in the truck. To those are reading this thread thinking it is a good idea, the answer is NOT.



+1

If you need those kind of aids at height..... You need to spend more time practicing on the ground, before you make a mistake and wake up in the hospital. *If* you wake up at all.

Be safe! Know your limits.


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## Plasmech (Feb 1, 2009)

I know why some pros would be totally against it, but one thing to keep in mind, I think, is that you could *truly* master something on the ground, be it pulling a ripcord, welding I-beams together, changing a light bulb, making a face and back cut, whatever, but once you are up at "death height", throw all that crap out the window man, it's a whole new ballgame, a whole new lesson. Like the difference between boot camp and Iraq.


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## RedlineIt (Feb 1, 2009)

Plasmech,

This is why you need to be comfortable at "death height" before you start firing up chainsaws aloft.

Some have that comfort level first time out, some just need time and practice, some never find the zone and should look for another line of work.


What Ghillie said is absolutely true. You need complete confidence in both disciplines of chainsaw skills and climbing skills brfore you throw the two together.

People are just trying to keep you safe, Plasmech.


RedlineIt


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## JeffL (Feb 1, 2009)

Nothing should be any different. If you arent comfortable being up there PERIOD, you sure arent going to be comfortable up there running a chainsaw, dangling off a rope trying to tie off a limb, swinging off the trunk making a grab for another leader in the tree, etc. Its all about comfort.

I've got maybe a few 2-3 dozen removals under my belt at work, lots of evergreen stuff, pines and hemlocks. Initially starting out, you are VERY aware of what heights you're at, and it kills your comfort level. After doing a few big pines last week, after I was done and hit the ground, it occurred to me that for not one minute did I even consider the heights I was working at. 

Be it free climbing a tree to go knock out a hanger and a stub, or prune the whole tree, or work it as a removal on spurs, you have to be comfortable. If not, you'll be less efficient, and more likely to wear yourself out and do something stupid. Take baby steps! One at a time, before you find yourself in a really bad situation.


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Good thinking Plasmech. Ignore Dan he is just jealous he didnt think of it first! I expect you will discard this technique soon enough just like trainer wheels on bikes. (Mine come off next week). In the meantime if it helps you develop an eye for level then go for it.



We have to clear something up, something you should know cause you might be confusing other as well as me.
I, am THE Dan.
There are others who responded named Dan
I am not one of those people named Dan

I am here to help, whelp.

At any rate, The Dan , yes,was jealous. I hope Plas brings the tampon rope if he can make it out thursday, by the end of the day I hope to rid him of it. Great for Demonstration though.


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## treemandan (Feb 1, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I know why some pros would be totally against it, but one thing to keep in mind, I think, is that you could *truly* master something on the ground, be it pulling a ripcord, welding I-beams together, changing a light bulb, making a face and back cut, whatever, but once you are up at "death height", throw all that crap out the window man, it's a whole new ballgame, a whole new lesson. Like the difference between boot camp and Iraq.



Yeah we cover that. I got some logs I can stand on end and you can stand there on the ground and practise that way. You can toss your lanyard around to make it even more real. I got thick logs , skiny logs, long logs , short logs. Then you will be able to pay attention to what happens and be told about it before your knees start knocking cause you are just about to fold over one mistake. They should knock a little at first, they just everyonce in awhile when something fun happens.
You can see how the rigging stuff goes and in action before you are tied into the chit for real.


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## TackleTree (Feb 1, 2009)

Plas, at least your thinkin of a way to get better. Keep working for it.


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## (WLL) (Feb 1, 2009)

TackleTree said:


> Plas, at least your thinkin of a way to get better. Keep working for it.


 hope you make it over to the dan's house just dont smoke the weed till after the lesson cause you may forget everything he showed ya


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## randyg (Feb 1, 2009)

*String?*

How about a chalk line? Hook in one side of the face and wrap around. Snap line in a couple places and then wrap it back up. 

Keep cuttin that string untill it gets wrapped around your drive sprocket and you will probably figure out a better way. In the tree, after making the face cut (if I make it on the side of the tree that I am on and I want to be on the back-cut side when making the back-cut) I just reach around the right side with the saw (both hands on the saw) and line up/level up the bar with the face and rev saw to make a small mark on exact opposite side with top of the bar. Keep in mind that cutting with the top of the bar will force saw away from the tree so keep both hands on saw and make sure nose is not close as it will try and spin the tip right around into your face. Just a small rev and touch bark to make a mark is all. Then you go ahead and rig the piece (bull rope across face and up through half hitch into running bowline) and when you set up on back side, you have a reference point to start back cut. For a quick check, I will reach around both sides and place middle fingers in apex of face cut just to verify direction and levelness? 

Probably to much info? I might use the chalk line idea on a really big tree on the ground if very critical felling cut, but never in the tree. That string thing is gonna bite ya eventually.


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## outofmytree (Feb 2, 2009)

treemandan said:


> We have to clear something up, something you should know cause you might be confusing other as well as me.
> I, am THE Dan.
> There are others who responded named Dan
> I am not one of those people named Dan
> ...



Oops. My bad THE DAN. 

Whelp? Is that the sound u make when you get spanked THE DAN? :jester:


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## outofmytree (Feb 2, 2009)

randyg said:


> In the tree, after making the face cut (if I make it on the side of the tree that I am on and I want to be on the back-cut side when making the back-cut) I just reach around the right side with the saw (both hands on the saw) and line up/level up the bar with the face and rev saw to make a small mark on exact opposite side with top of the bar. Keep in mind that cutting with the top of the bar will force saw away from the tree so keep both hands on saw and make sure nose is not close as it will try and spin the tip right around into your face. Just a small rev and touch bark to make a mark is all.



I often mark a large cut especially when it is bigger than the length of the bar. 20 some years ago when I was learning my trade the motto was "measure twice and cut once". That is just as true today in any trade.

If I had the chance to work with someone like THE DAN, I would take it Plasmech. Hands on training is the best kind.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 2, 2009)

Yep Dan's got a big head, but he (and others) has a point.

If you have to wrap a string around the log at the apex of your scarf, notch, facecut, pie...Sounds like a good idea in concept but problematic in application.

Try this Make a horizontal curf at the apex of your scarf, and run it back around the log.

Gaff around to the other side and do the same thing, now you know where to cut, and you do not have a big ball of masonry twine to get all tangled up.

I hope I have actually helped, instead of bloviating about how good I am and how naive you appear to be.


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## angelo c (Feb 2, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Yep Dan's got a big head, but he (and others) has a point.
> 
> If you have to wrap a string around the log at the apex of your scarf, notch, facecut, pie...Sounds like a good idea in concept but problematic in application.
> 
> ...



Guys, 
How about snapping a chalk line ? , just sounds reasonable if the objective is to "see around' the tree.


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## pdqdl (Feb 2, 2009)

You're not a carpenter, are you?

Chalk lines only work well against flat surfaces when stretched between two points. If you try to follow a curve along the bark of the tree it will only make a mark where you happen to have aligned it while spurring around the log. It will not have any more tendency to establish a straight line than the original plan, and once stretched tight around a curve, you can't pop it to get the chalk line.

BTW, if you will be able to make sure that your string line is lined up with the corners, you should be able to make marker cuts in the bark to do the same thing.


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## Plasmech (Feb 2, 2009)

I like the idea of just chalk itself. Reach around the tree and continue the line around back. I agree that the string could become sprocket fodder and is probably not a good idea. 

I could just put my lanyard right in the Vee and go to town huh? That sounds brilliant! :monkey:


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## treemandan (Feb 2, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Yep Dan's got a big head, but he (and others) has a point.
> 
> If you have to wrap a string around the log at the apex of your scarf, notch, facecut, pie...Sounds like a good idea in concept but problematic in application.
> 
> ...



Wait, Dan who? I have no idea what bloviating means nor care to find out. 
Oh, its just fun


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## Plasmech (Feb 2, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Wait, Dan who? I have no idea what bloviating means nor care to find out.
> Oh, its just fun



Hey Dan (TM), 

What's up with all these prima donnas warning me about you being stoned? I ain't drivin' all the way up there for no clam bake bro! 

(LOL j/k it's all cool)


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## treemandan (Feb 2, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Hey Dan (TM),
> 
> What's up with all these prima donnas warning me about you being stoned? I ain't drivin' all the way up there for no clam bake bro!
> 
> (LOL j/k it's all cool)



He said "clam". 

You should check out the thread in this forum labled " The Plas Pine". How much do you wiegh?
Yup, your right, you ain't driving up here for that. You can climb that tree right?


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## Plasmech (Feb 2, 2009)

treemandan said:


> He said "clam".
> 
> You should check out the thread in this forum labled " The Plas Pine". How much do you wiegh?
> Yup, your right, you ain't driving up here for that. You can climb that tree right?



5'10" 170 lbs. 

I'll look for that thread.


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## Raymond (Feb 2, 2009)

*You gotta be kidding right?*

Man I bet you have all the little gadgets they sell. I'm all about having the right tools for the job but you can take it over board.
Make your notch and grab a smaller saw and make a line around the tree. If you can't do that maybe you should cut grass for a living.


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## Plasmech (Feb 2, 2009)

Raymond said:


> Man I bet you have all the little gadgets they sell. I'm all about having the right tools for the job but you can take it over board.
> Make your notch and grab a smaller saw and make a line around the tree. If you can't do that maybe you should cut grass for a living.



In your FIRST post you bash a forum member?


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## Raymond (Feb 2, 2009)

*Oh Lightin' up string guy*



Plasmech said:


> In your FIRST post you bash a forum member?



I'm just making a point. Don't take it deep, you have guys watching and ready to go to work. Getter down, clean it up and go home.


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## Raymond (Feb 3, 2009)

*Thanks fellas*

I'm not going to always be an ass. I guess I was just in a mood. 
Yeah I signed up for this site a couple weeks ago and just now am looking into it. I see this could be fun. 
I like to discuss #### with people who know what I'm talking about.
I live and breath tree work. I'll be around.


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## jeepstrapped (Feb 3, 2009)

So, if the twine thing is a bad idea.

How about moving the ladder around to the other side of the tree to see where the notch is? opcorn: 

And the answer is no, I am not serious, just a bad sense of humor. :jester:


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## smokechase II (Feb 3, 2009)

*No comment on some stuff*

I don't teach saw work anymore.

But it occurs to me that this idea might actually be better to teach someone falling on the ground.

A total newbee who is having trouble with height and levelness of cut.

===========

Rather than just complain, maybe I could have given them an aid on the first few trees to get them started.

Too late now to try it out.


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

i like to stand on the side of the tree and make my cuts. after im all lined up if i need to be on the back side i go before i finish my back cut. its very important to go to your work , than get a good sturdy work position before you start cutting. the only way you will ever get good @ saw control is ta go to the work, get your position so you are able to use both hands on the saw and make sure you can see what your cutting.. you want to avoid reaching or bending in any funky ways, whether it be your arms or your neck.


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

i have met a crap load of ignorant climbers that just dont like to teach others. i look at it like people showed me and im sharing the knowledge. im glade you stuck around plasmech. when i was first wanting to learn i asked twice as many ?'s as plasmech. one thing i find a lil strange is i think plasmech is much older than me how old r u man?


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 3, 2009)

Instead of wrapping string around the tree, how about a few wraps of primacord. Then you won't need a saw.


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## Plasmech (Feb 3, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> i have met a crap load of ignorant climbers that just dont like to teach others. i look at it like people showed me and im sharing the knowledge. im glade you stuck around plasmech. when i was first wanting to learn i asked twice as many ?'s as plasmech. one thing i find a lil strange is i think plasmech is much older than me how old r u man?



I'm 31. And you?


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I'm 31. And you?


im a lil behind at 28. dont worry, some old doggs learn new trix too


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## Rftreeman (Feb 3, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> im a lil behind at 28. dont worry old some doggs learn new trix too


sometimes they do...........:biggrinbounce2:


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> sometimes they do...........:biggrinbounce2:


 and sometimes they dont. iv always like the frase; if you think you know everything than you will never learn anything


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## Rftreeman (Feb 3, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> and sometimes they dont. iv always like the frase; if you think you know everything than you will never learn anything


what, you didn't know that i know everything? Seems that some say that I think I do, maybe it's just me, who knows...........


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## (WLL) (Feb 3, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> what, you didn't know that i know everything? Seems that some say that I think I do, maybe it's just me, who knows...........


dont top it, just stop it


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## Rftreeman (Feb 3, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> dont top it, just stop it


ok, since you asked......


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