# Am I getting a fair deal?



## mhmosher (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks in advance for any help.

I own a small woodlot in the Northeast US. I have about 20 acres, 15 of which are mature hemlock. I had a big outfit lined up to log it and they told me I could get between $8,000 and $10,000 for the hemlock. Long story short, access to my land was difficult and this guy completely bailed on me. He had promised me 40% of what he what made. 

I eventually found a one-man operation to start the logging. He offered me 33%. I was disappointed, but I knew these trees had to go (two fell down this summer). I agreed to have him do the job. 

I ended up having an access road put in for $1,200 and logging has started. The trees look good. Only a few so far have been rotten. Most are solid. Two days ago, he took out his first load. It was just a small truck, almost like a stake-rack with a twelve foot bed. 

Today we got our cut. It was $108.50

The receipt was written on a piece of paper and written by the sawmill owner, not the logger. 

It said 

$210.00 PM

Total scale: 1,550 board feet
total price: $325.00

stumpage: $108.50

Now, I know Hemlock is not valuable. But from this info, do you think I'm getting screwed? Most people told me that most loggers are crooked and will take out more wood than they tell you. I'm at this guy's mercy. I'm not here during the day and he could easily sneak wood out. Plus, he has no chipper so I'm getting left with branches all over the place.

Today, they filled an 18-wheeler up, so I've got another payment next week.

For those of you with expertise that help me with this, I truly thank you. The reason I am trying to learn from this is I have 5-10 acres of maple coming along and I want to be much more shrewd about this next time.


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## joesawer (Oct 16, 2010)

It looks like you got the third you agreed on.
If you are worried about the loggers character why are you doing business with him. They are amazingly like other people, some are ruthless thieves and some would not steal from you to save their life. 
Ask for references and check how happy past land owners have been. I have known some small loggers who have never left a land owner happy and I have worked with one company that the land owners brought us lunch every day and great friendships where formed. 
Who said anything about chipping limbs and tops? That is not a normal part of logging.


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## Sep (Oct 16, 2010)

It seems fair to me. There is not much money to be made with hemlock, you are getting one third as agreed on. Which seems reasonable to me.


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## mingo (Oct 16, 2010)

Looks like your gettijng a very good deal. Thats $70 per M, hemlock stumpage is going for half that or less around here.


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## mhmosher (Oct 16, 2010)

Thanks guys.

The guy I'm going with I've heard is of good character. Its just that around here, I hear over and over again that the loggers are crooked. Maybe my guy isn't.

The hemlock is very good....it's it great shape. Maybe there's a bit of a demand around here - who knows? 

Again, thank you. I feel much better about it.


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## teatersroad (Oct 16, 2010)

mhmosher said:


> Its just that around here, I hear over and over again that the loggers are crooked. Maybe my guy isn't.



You are starting to make me hope that he is. k.. maybe not really, but you would do well to consider what you say and where you say it.


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## mingo (Oct 16, 2010)

99% of loggers are honest hard working people who do a very dangerous job and do it well. Now compare that to your politicians and lawyers if you want to see real crooks.


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## mhmosher (Oct 16, 2010)

Guys, I'm not trying to offend anyone. I tell it like it is, and that's what I have heard.


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## dancan (Oct 16, 2010)

Consider yourself lucky that a local mill is buying hemlock .
Most operations around here leave it in the woods until someone wants it .
If you doubt your loggers check the mill's reputation and have someone else call the mill and ask about the logger .
Don't forget that he's paying for trucking out of his third .
The last time I checked a local mill they were paying about 65.00 a ton for 16ft spf saw logs and to allow 10.00$$ a ton for trucking .
If the wood was dirty or had a lot of stubble expect about 35.00$$ a ton less the trucking .
I've heard of as low as 13.00$$ a ton paid to some landowners .


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## mhmosher (Oct 16, 2010)

Believe me, after getting these answers, I DO feel lucky.


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## dk27 (Oct 16, 2010)

Mhmosher
not to hijack you're thread or any thing
But the town You live in,would that be the last large town in New York state before cross into Quebec?I believe we drove thru it heading up to Montreal this summer.If so its some beautiful country!!


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## mhmosher (Oct 16, 2010)

You're probably thinking of Plattsburgh, if you were on the interstate.

Malone is along Rt 11, which goes east-west up here.

But yeah, you were certainly near here....it is nice. Tons of woods.


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## dk27 (Oct 16, 2010)

We we're staying in Lake Placid and took route 30, I think north from the Saranac lake area.Still can't believe the farm country in Canada You would think You were in kansas!


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## mhmosher (Oct 16, 2010)

dk27 said:


> We we're staying in Lake Placid and took route 30, I think north from the Saranac lake area.Still can't believe the farm country in Canada You would think You were in kansas!



Then you did go through Malone.


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## clinchscavalry (Oct 16, 2010)

I'll give you the same advice I would give anyone who doesn't really have knowledge of what they're selling, and that is get someone who does know the value of your timber to tell you "what you have". I wouldn't sell my house without an appraisal since I don't have a clue what it's worth, and I wouldn't try to buy a vehicle without at least consulting the Blue Book or similar since I also don't know what that is worth either.

I assume you have consulting foresters in your area. You might want to hire one to at least make a ball park estimate of how much volume you have and what stumpage value you should expect based on size, quality, access, etc. The fee they charge for this service will be money well spent in most cases.

Disclaimer: I am admittedly biased in favor of hiring a forester since I am one and have been for over 37 years. I could fill up the forum with anecdotes about "protecting landowners from themselves" and getting them much more money for selling both small volumes and large volumes of standing timber.


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## Wilson_tree (Oct 17, 2010)

It's good to see some discussion that's close to home. I'm just outside Lake Placid. Who is buying the hemlock? How far is it from your lot to the mill? You could think of this hemlock sale as an education to prepare you for your maple sale. I'm getting ready to do a thinning in a sugar bush here in Keene. It's about 100 acres which is a lot of wood, but it will all be firewood. Have you figured out what you want to cut on your maple lot? Is anyone buying maple near you? Would you use the same guy again? I'd be happy to talk to you more since we're neighbors. Good luck.


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## mingo (Oct 17, 2010)

In your case i think you came out way ahead. Your getting top dollar for your hemlock and saving the 15 to 20% you would have to pay a forester.


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## Oldtimer (Oct 24, 2010)

mingo said:


> In your case i think you came out way ahead. Your getting top dollar for your hemlock and saving the 15 to 20% you would have to pay a forester.



Agreed.

Hemlock sucks. It's got 200 million limbs per tree. It's no fun, and the guy doing your job is paying you exactly what landowners here are getting. The limbs will rot eventually, and it's the best thing for your woodlot.

If I were you, I'd meet him on Friday afternoon with a 6 pack and a pizza. 
A little grease goes a long long way. If he likes you, he'll treat you that much better.

And just a personal opinion about "foresters".
Why does the world automatically assume a logger is a crook....and that a forester is a saint?
I know foresters who would cut their own mother's throat for a buck.
I know foresters who have no business being a forester.
I know foresters who are right on the money, and WORTH the money they make.

In any situation where a landowner wants to cut some timber, it's prudent to have SEVERAL foresters (If you want one) and SEVERAL timber buyers come give written estimates. Do not trust the one that says there's 50% more in it than the rest. Do not trust the one that says there's 50% LESS in it that the rest. Take the 2-3 that are very close to each other, and choose the one you feel best about.....probably the one that was on time for the meeting.


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## Gologit (Oct 24, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> And just a personal opinion about "foresters".
> Why does the world automatically assume a logger is a crook....and that a forester is a saint?
> I know foresters who would cut their own mother's throat for a buck.
> I know foresters who have no business being a forester.
> ...



Good advice.


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## regwilson (Oct 30, 2010)

*insurance jobs*

we had a big wind storm here last week lots of trees down. got a job removing fallen tree from mobile roof, plus three other large jack pine. the job intailed cutting of wood and removing the brush. my ?? is there a rule of thumb for chargeing the insurance company?ie. 100.00 a tree. thanks


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## RandyMac (Oct 30, 2010)

regwilson said:


> we had a big wind storm here last week lots of trees down. got a job removing fallen tree from mobile roof, plus three other large jack pine. the job intailed cutting of wood and removing the brush. my ?? is there a rule of thumb for chargeing the insurance company?ie. 100.00 a tree. thanks



Need more info.
$100? What are you paying for your insurance? If you get hurt, who pays? $100 is not near enough. What would a real tree service charge?


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## Gologit (Oct 30, 2010)

regwilson said:


> we had a big wind storm here last week lots of trees down. got a job removing fallen tree from mobile roof, plus three other large jack pine. the job intailed cutting of wood and removing the brush. my ?? is there a rule of thumb for chargeing the insurance company?ie. 100.00 a tree. thanks



Post your question in the Commercial Tree Care section. Those guys will let you know what they think of your price. Real quick, too.


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## DangerTree (Nov 2, 2010)

I've been logging and climbing trees for years I have never ripped off anyone. I've seen lots of people get ripped off. The best advice when hiring a contractor is to get an independent audit of the stand (called a timber cruise). They can determine exact volume and average quality using increment bores. You also need to factor in road access, reclamation (or clean-up) de-activation -maybe water bars or culverts need to be installed to prevent environmental damage and re- forestation cost if that's part of your master plan. After all that you will know if burning wouldn't be cheaper! By the way that maple you were talking about. If you want to get scorched bad let it go for a song 1 tree could be worth thousands on the musical instrument market. You need to know your market. Even bulk firewood sales can make better money than log sales at times.


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