# Just joined- thought I'd share a couple Pics...



## Monkeyman13 (Mar 6, 2007)

Hey Folks, I just joined on March 5th 2007, I actually stumbled across your site while looking for some info on a chainsaw I am looking at buying. I got pretty excited as I have been trying to find info on several questions or issues I occasionally ran into over the last couple years, and was pleasantly surprised when I stumbled onto your site: 

I have been cutting my own firewood for the last 10 years and when I first begun to get my own firewood, I did it entirely by chain saw, (cutting axp 6-8 cords and splitting by Axe) Then about 3 years ago, I was talking to a local farmer in my area, and asked if he knows anyone that has a buzz saw for sale or if he ever happens to run across one at an auction to grab it for me if it isn't too much $$$. So a week later he drives up to my place with a buzz saw in the back of his truck. It only cost me $100.00, but had to put some sweat equity into it to get it working... It used to run off a pulley rigged up for a tractor, but I wanted it to run off a gas engine. 

Attached is a pic of the saw, as it was just after modifying it. I have already made some additional mods to it. Runs like a charm, needless to say, saves a tonne of work...


----------



## b1rdman (Mar 6, 2007)

Welcome to AS!

I run my Woodsman off of a farm tractor and I have to say that this is the first time I've seen one powered by a small engine. Cool looking setup though.

Keep an eye on those fingers. There are plenty of old timers around here with stubby fingers thanks to the buzz saw.


----------



## ben14826 (Mar 6, 2007)

I guess I'll be the first to chime in. First of all, welcome! This site contains a wealth of information and nice people. You'll be glad you joined. Personally I would be scared $^8#less to operate that buzz saw! How do you feed the wood into it? And how do you do it without getting hurt? Does it ever fling a chunk back at you?

Scratch that on first to reply!


----------



## Monkeyman13 (Mar 6, 2007)

I've used it for almost 3 seasons so far. I'll tell you I was very intimidated the first time I ran a log through it. I was very concerned about recoil, tripping in front of it, or misjudging where my hands are. Since these pics were taken, I've upgraded the motor to a 12HP (used to be a 6), and improved the design for the belt tensioner. I really respect the saw and am very aware of what i am doing. Today I am quite comfortable running the saw and I hope that I do not get too comfortable cause that when fingers go missing.... 

On the saw, there is a swing arm I'll call it, that the log rests on, and then I just push the log to the blade and continue with the pressure until I cut through the log. You have to have your wits about you whenever you are around the saw that's for sure.


----------



## ktm rider (Mar 6, 2007)

I had an small accident with a circular saw last year and nearly lost my whole right thumb right at the webbing. 60 stitches, wires, 2 pins and 2 surgeries later I am good to go. That monster right there in those pictures are the things my nightmares are made of now.

I would *SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY *consider some safety guards around that spinning blade. As you mentioned, one stumble over a split log and that thing would take more than just a thumb. That thing scares the Bejesus out of me just looking at the pics !!!!


----------



## rb_in_va (Mar 6, 2007)

ktm rider said:


> I would *SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY *consider some safety guards around that spinning blade. As you mentioned, one stumble over a split log and that thing would take more than just a thumb. That thing scares the Bejesus out of me just looking at the pics !!!!



Not to mention the risk if there are little ones about.


----------



## Steve128 (Mar 6, 2007)

*Pictures*

Thank you for the pictures. Please be careful with that saw!


----------



## kevinj (Mar 6, 2007)

*Accident waiting to happen.*

I sure hope you have a good insurance policy.
I wonder if your insurance co. would keep you covered 
if they knew you had this.
Be careful man.


----------



## wdchuck (Mar 6, 2007)

Welcome to AS.

You are half way to a milling setup with the way you have that crosscut saw rigged, just need a carriage to run parallel and slab some some wood.

I second the guarding, something along the lines of a power mitre saw, so when you push a log through to buck, the guard lifts out of the way and comes back down when you pull the carriage back towards you.


----------



## JeffHK454 (Mar 6, 2007)

WOW!!! that thing scares the hell out of me and your like 1500 miles away!


----------



## SmokinDodge (Mar 6, 2007)

No to be another worried poster but I always thought those buzz saws would be good to take the top of your head off real quick. Little bit of wind to blow the hat off your head, you stoop over to pick er up and zinng, your sportin a new hair do.

I still wouldn't mind to have one though. Nice score and good job!


----------



## yooperman (Mar 6, 2007)

I've been reading here for a while but this is my 1st post. When I bought my current property there was a buzzsaw rig just inside my property line in the woods on an old sawmill site. When the chunk of land next to me sold the buzzsaw dissaperared. I never asked any questions of the seller or new owner. I was actually kind of relieved because I know I would have set it up to use.


----------



## oneadam12 (Mar 6, 2007)

I saw one of those a couple of years ago that had been modified so that you could stand to one side, the wood was clamped down in a fasion to be easily moved once cut, then you lifted the table on a pivot point. Looked like the owner may have had a run in with thing that scared him too.


----------



## infomet (Mar 6, 2007)

Nice rig, but I'll chime in on the advice too.
I'm pretty daring, but wouldn't work across the saw that way!
I'm in the midst of getting one going. It has a back on the swing table that's about 6" tall...makes for stable rest. It also has a guard loop standing vertically at the right end of the table. The loop goes on both sides of the blade as the table swings in. I'm not sure what the guard prevents, but it looks good.

I believe they were meant to be used by standing behind the table and pushing the log in with two hands, both well left of the blade.

How did yours cut with the 6HP engine? What size wood?
If my tractor hookup doesn't go well, I'll do a small engine too.

Nice shots.


----------



## Gologit (Mar 6, 2007)

That's an old-timer for sure. I agree with the guys who advise you to get some guards on it, though. We have one that we run off of a tractor belt and the potential for kicking back a piece of wood is always there. Also beware of metal objects in the wood...nails,barb wire,all kinds of stuff. I don't know how old your blade is but they can shatter ...think shrapnel heading for that propane tank next to your house. We use ours mostly on orchard limbs...stuff you can stand off to one side of while you're feeding. Also, now you get to learn a whole new kind of sharpening. Have fun...be careful.


----------



## infomet (Mar 6, 2007)

More questions:

Does that engine have a gear reduction built in? Hopefully you aren't running at motor speed, which I think would be too fast! Mine has a flat belt drive from a 540 rpm PTO. The pulley on the saw is near the same size as the pto pulley on the tractor, so I'm thinking the design speed was in the 700 RPM range?

I expect it's possible to sling the blade apart with excess speed!


----------



## Old Monkey (Mar 6, 2007)

Maybe I've read too many Stephen King novels, those pictures gave me the willies. You are a braver man than I.


----------



## ericjeeper (Mar 6, 2007)

*Love a buzz saw*

We have a stationary one, used to run it off of the flat belt and the H farmall. My dad and my late Uncle would work together. My dad always did the cutting and my uncle the catching and pitching. It is a tool, you just have to respect it. I would never operate one alone though, or atleast I would never work with my body in front of the blade, and one arm crossing the blade.
Have a buddy catch and toss the cut offs..
My neighbor has a mounted buzz saw on the front of his H. My grandparents would clean fencerows and bring in stuff to small to mess with the S10 Stihl. They would pile it in the barnlot, then on a weekend Grandma would kill some fresh chickens and grandma would cook up a big feast. German foods, and beef Kidneys, my favorite.
Those days are long behind us now.. But they were for fact, the good ole days of yester year.


----------



## sperho (Mar 6, 2007)

Holy crap. You've got way more cahones than I... Out of curiosity, why did you go to a buzzsaw for 6 cord/year?


----------



## Gologit (Mar 6, 2007)

Old Monkey said:


> Maybe I've read too many Stephen King novels, those pictures gave me the willies. You are a braver man than I.



 There is no such thing as reading "too many" Stephen King novels. If you read one you gotta read them all.


----------



## Bowtie (Mar 6, 2007)

When I was a teenager I used one of those, and had fun doing so while drinking beer with my family and friends. Fast Forward to pushing 30, wife and 2 and a half your old baby girl, that thing scares the hell out of me. You have an awesome tool there, please be careful and follow these guys advise and put some kind of safety guard on that saw.


----------



## fubar2 (Mar 7, 2007)

Looks like a real meateater you've got there without a guard. I have one that was sold by Sears. I rigged it up to fit an Allis Chalmers with three point hitch and run it off a CA. Works good but you've got to watch that cut offs dont get piled too high under the blade. Mine grabbed one and flung it into the blade guard which went fifteen to twenty feet airborne. Theyre mean and theyre deadly, treat it with respect and put a guard on it. Always keep an eye out for things to trip over around it too.


----------



## bigmac (Mar 7, 2007)

Monkeyman13 said:


> Hey Folks, I just joined on March 5th 2007, I actually stumbled across your site while looking for some info on a chainsaw I am looking at buying. I got pretty excited as I have been trying to find info on several questions or issues I occasionally ran into over the last couple years, and was pleasantly surprised when I stumbled onto your site:
> 
> I have been cutting my own firewood for the last 10 years and when I first begun to get my own firewood, I did it entirely by chain saw, (cutting axp 6-8 cords and splitting by Axe) Then about 3 years ago, I was talking to a local farmer in my area, and asked if he knows anyone that has a buzz saw for sale or if he ever happens to run across one at an auction to grab it for me if it isn't too much $$$. So a week later he drives up to my place with a buzz saw in the back of his truck. It only cost me $100.00, but had to put some sweat equity into it to get it working... It used to run off a pulley rigged up for a tractor, but I wanted it to run off a gas engine.
> 
> Attached is a pic of the saw, as it was just after modifying it. I have already made some additional mods to it. Runs like a charm, needless to say, saves a tonne of work...



the pictures where to big hard to see the saw in its real size.
its not hard to resize pictures befor posting them,

anyway cool vintage saw 


LOOK AT THE PICTURES NOW


----------



## sawinredneck (Mar 7, 2007)

Old Monkey said:


> Maybe I've read too many Stephen King novels, those pictures gave me the willies. You are a braver man than I.



Man you aint kidding there Darin!!! I've heard too many horror stories, and seem to be to acident prone, to even think that thing looks cool, much less want to run it!!!!


----------



## STEELHEAD (Mar 7, 2007)

*Osha*

OSHA, wood have a field day with alot of our backwoods contraptons,. If you have ever been down on the farm pics and stories like this dont get you stired up much,..there are alot of worse things used every day down on the farm , Like pto shafts, I cant imagine anything worse, then gettin your shirt sleve or pant leg etc cought in a open shaft with a 100 hp diesel engine driving it , And it happens way to often,..Some times being in a hurry and some times its just fate...Ive always said,.. machinery has no concinece. And like the gentilman said (keep your witts about you) There are worse things you could be doin,.. Just keep in mind Weather its a chain saw buzz saw, or heavy equipment ,.1 wrong move and things can get ugly real quick,..Be safe not sorry,...E, J


----------



## sredlin (Mar 7, 2007)

Yikes!! I think I would rather walk around Bagdad with one of those American Flag shirts on.


----------



## 59Billy (Mar 7, 2007)

Never thought I'd ever get to say this, but:

I think a chaionsaw might be a safer tool for that job.

On the other hand... with a little engineering, that thing would make a heck of a sawmill.


----------



## infomet (Mar 8, 2007)

You get so many questions and suggestions here because many of us envy someone having something finished and usable! Your rig has certainly caused me to reevaluate my plans for the one I'm hooking up. I like the small engine drive, rather than a tractor. I may wind up with the Briggs mounted in the saw frame and the whole thing transportable on the three point hitch!

Is that a flat belt drive? I can't tell from the picture. It looks to me like the idler wheel is on the wrong side of the belt. Usually it would push "inward" on the belt, so as to increase the wrap and get more friction on the drive pulley.
If it can be pivoted, it would make a great clutch.

Also, I notice the little vertical brackets sticking up from the swing table have holes in them. I'd bet a six pack there is supposed to be a board bolted acrosss there. That would give you a more secure surface to locate the log and a better place for your hands. As it is, a small piece could get its end between brackets and not be stable for the cut.

I'm gonna start looking for pulleys!


----------



## STEELHEAD (Mar 8, 2007)

*farmall H*

If you got the tractor ,..stick with it,..You will be sawin real slow with a lil gas motor,runin it.. like havin a table saw with a 1/3 hp motor on it,.. You wont like runin it And good luck getin it started ,If you dont have a clutch,. The tractor is all set up with one ,.. Trying to start a lil gas motor with a 30" saw blade hooked up direct is not going to be user friendly,..another good thing is, the tractor mounted buzz saw is self propeled,... E J


----------



## kellog (Mar 15, 2007)

*Safety*

Monkeyman, I too am a new commer to this site and like it very much. I think you will too. 

I have a healthy fear of chain saws. My philosophy is that a blade moving at the speed of a chainsaw chain should be bolted to something. I use chainsaws but as little as necessary. Therefore I am a great fan of cordwood saws. However.....

Your pictures scared me to death. They took my breath away. You must guard that blade. 

I am attaching a few old pictures of my cordwood saw from a couple of years ago (when I had just completed it) that I had on the computer. The blade is mostly guarded and this year I am making a movable guard to protect the open part of the blade. It will move with the table. I will also have a treadle that will have to be depressed to move the table. In this way the saw will be as safe as humanly possible.

Please don't use that thing until you guard it. One false step and you could be history and we want you around for a long time on this site. 

I would be interested in the tensioning mechanism you spoke of. Do you have a picture?


----------



## infomet (Mar 15, 2007)

Great job! What's the overall gear ratio?
Do you know what rpm you run the blade?
I'm a little afraid one could shatter a blade by overspeeding.
The tractor ones seem to run about one to one on the PTO, making the blade speed about 550?? That's about 3500 ft/min at the teeth of a 2 ft blade.
Is there a clutch? Moving tensioner?
What's the metal bar sticking up for?
What size wood can the 6HP handle?
I'm thinking of something similar, maybe with a flywheel of some sort to help the engine a bit.


----------



## kellog (Mar 15, 2007)

*Reply to Infomet*

Infomet, not sure if you were referring to my post but I can answer your questions anyway. The overall ratio on my cordwood saw is 3 to 1. This puts the blade speed at about 1200 Rpm or 9400 feet per min (30" steel blade). This is the recommended speed for circular saw blades for wood. I think your 7 1/4" Black and Decker runs at approximately the same surface speed. 

My machine has a belt tensioner. I loosen it to start the motor and then tighten it slowly to start the blade moving. 

Not sure what metal bar you are refferring to but it may be part of the tensioner.

With the 6 HP B&S motor I have on mine I can cut anything I can get on the table. Normally 10" dia X 84" long piece is all I can get on there by lifting one end to stand it straight up and letting it fall onto the table (it sucks to be old). The blade cuts it like a hot knife thru butter. The key is a sharp blade. I dress mine every 3 cords with clean wood. More often with dirty wood or if I hit something like barbed wire. I normally cut four 21" long pieces from 84-86" long ones.

I thought of putting a flywheel on mine and actually set up the jack shaft for one but on second thought I decided not to. With a flywheel you will mask the fact that the blade is dull. With a sharp blade 6 HP is more than enough. How many HPs does your chainsaw have? Also sharp tools make for safe cutting.


----------



## Patrick62 (Mar 16, 2007)

*I saw one kinda like that*

Fella had it hooked to what was left of a car. Idled it if I recall, and it was effective. Dangerous, but effective. There is no such thing as damn fool proof. In spite of possible guards that thing would be dangerous. If it cuts wood, it would cut people, simple as that.

Chainsaw has a trigger, and the rotating mass is low enough that a chain brake is actually possible. With the buzzsaw there is no practical way to stop the blade instantly.

If I had such a blade I would seriously consider using it for a small mill rather than blocking. way cool setup  

-Pat


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to Patrick*

Patrick, you make some good points so I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the safety of a properly guarded cordwood saw vs a chainsaw.

Maybe we can get some others to weigh in on this subject. As a newbie here I am not sure how to start that dialog with the larger group but maybe someone who knows how could get it going.

I know a guy who works for Underwriters Lab who might be able to shed some light. 

I think the dialog would also get people thinking safety which is never a bad thing.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

JeffHK454 said:


> WOW!!! that thing scares the hell out of me and your like 1500 miles away!



To anyone his own, but that thing should not be allowed to be used. If you would let someone use such a tool in europe, you'd be in big trouble if an accident were to happen.

Seriously, throw that saw in the dumpster and buy a safe device. You only have one life to live (and preferably with all attachment still to it)


----------



## infomet (Mar 16, 2007)

AH, Belgian, hello.
We really needed a shot of the old "We do it differently in Europe." thing. I haven't heard it for a while and it always gets my circulation going! Were you talking about Monkeyman's unguarded saw or Kellog's excellent rig with a full guard?

Fortunately many of us still believe in personal choice rather than creeping government by incompetent people who live to make decisions by others. We have creep, of course, just much less than "enlightened" Europe! I'd far rather a few people get their hands cut off than a few hundred million be arbitrarily restricted in their activities! By the way, whom do you want making "your" decisions? Ah yes, the European Parliament, now there's a great, efficient, and effective organization! HO HO.

BTW, I have travelled extensively in Europe and done business there. I love many things about it but have no patience with the overreaching regulatory frenzy that is going on! I expect you will become completely paralyzed and noncompetitive if things continue as they are. We are on the same road, just a generation or two behind you!

Well, anyway, this is not a political forum and everyone interested in trees is welcome, as far as I can tell, even Europeans. What are your sawing acivities?

Proudly making my own stupid mistakes,


----------



## Haywire Haywood (Mar 16, 2007)

---steps up on his soap box, waves to the crowd---​
This is where I part with the Safety Harpies. It's his saw, for his personal use to be operated on his property. He's aware that it's a dangerous thing to use, especially in it's current configuration. He is solely and totally responsible for the results of him using it. It is nobody's business or duty to protect him from lopping off his arm and neither the saw's manufacturer nor the farmer that brought it to him (at his request) should hold one little thread of liability. If he were operating a business and hiring folk to run it, or having his children run it, then that would be a different situation of course. There's a fine line between being safety conscious and being a Safety Harpy. We as a nation are close to crossing that line, and if my perception is correct, our European friends have forgotten there ever was one. I don't like "the man" in my backyard trying to protect me from myself.

Ian

---soap box collapses under his weight, crowd laughs uncontrollably and he promptly sues Dial Soap Co. for defamation of character---​


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to Belgian*

Belgian, it is always good to hear other perspectives on an issue especially from totally outside the region. As we all know "None of us is as smart as all of us". 

Do you think that this unit can be made safe or do you think it really should be thrown out?

Also can you weigh in on the Chainsaw verses a properly guarded Cordwood saw issue?


----------



## 59Billy (Mar 16, 2007)

Hey, infomet and Haywire -- you guys sound like a couple of dangerous anarchists. I'm going to have to report you to the Safety Police.



For your own good, of course.


----------



## NYCHA FORESTER (Mar 16, 2007)

JeffHK454 said:


> WOW!!! that thing scares the hell out of me and your like 1500 miles away!



Me too


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

I didn't realise I was opening a can of worms here   I will not going into a debate of Europe is better than the US or vice versa, I hate politics, so that's why I don't post much in Off Topic. If you don't like to live in Europe, fine with me. But I agree with you that we have too many regulations over here that limit one's personal freedom wayyyy too much to my liking. I like also several conservative values you americans still cherish such as the right to possess arms, etc.

But my comments were purely based on safety. You simply don't mess with safety and always should take reasonable precautions when operating tools for not getting hurt. Sometimes people have to be protected against their own stupidity, while manufacterers spend fortunes on research to make things safer and better. I believe that's a good thing.



> This is where I part with the Safety Harpies. It's his saw, for his personal use to be operated on his property. He's aware that it's a dangerous thing to use, especially in it's current configuration. He is solely and totally responsible for the results of him using it



How about his responsibility against his family or society ? If he gets hurt operating that "thing", does he expect society to pay for his health care, or supporting his family ?. With the social security system we have in europe, the guy will probably get the best medical treatment if he gets injured at a relatively small cost to him, but a huge cost to society. In a sorta way I would have to pay for his stupidity. How about that ?

I just hope that he will not let his children use that thing.

Be wise, and safe.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

> kellog said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that this unit can be made safe or do you think it really should be thrown out?
> ...


----------



## Haywire Haywood (Mar 16, 2007)

belgian said:


> How about his responsibility against his family or society ?



Belgian, I hope you know that my comments weren't aimed at you, but rather at the system. I lived in Europe for 4 years and liked it a lot over there.

Another reason why socialism isn't a good thing... Everyone pays for the mistakes of the few instead of the few paying for their own or suffering the consequences of their actions. Now if he kills himself and leaves his family without income, it would be a sad situation but it's not society's responsibility to take care of his family, it's his. I hope he has insurance to include health, life, and disability. This is why you purchase it. If you are healthy and take no risks (boring) then you don't use it and your premiums go to cover the costs of those that do. If you are unhealthy and are a risk taker, then you do use it. This is why health insurance costs more for smokers and drinkers and car insurance costs more if you commute a long way or live in a big city, it's a higher risk. They just haven't gotten around to adding "chainsaw/buzzsaw user" to their questionnaire yet. It will come tho, don't worry. :biggrinbounce2:

but to get back on topic.. 

Nice saw, looks dangerous, I'd rather use my chainsaw. Be careful and be sure to pay your health, disability and life insurance premiums on time.

Ian


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to Belgian*

Belgian, you are right, without a doubt, a chainsaw is far more versatile than a cordwood saw. My question was more one of safety. 

Do you have any thoughts on which might be safer and why? If not that's fine but being as you are from Europe I was hoping to get a different perspective on the safety issue. Also you said there are many cordwood saws in use near you. 

There are very few cordwood saws in use in my area. Likely the versatility issue plays a great role as well as perceived safety.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Belgian, I hope you know that my comments weren't aimed at you, but rather at the system. I lived in Europe for 4 years and liked it a lot over there.
> 
> Ian




Hey Ian, no problem here.  
Every system has its pro and cons, I guess. I like our social security system, but not the massive abuse of it.

Insurance is fine, although I hope I will never have need for using it. No money can compensate for lost limbs or handicaps.

jfyi. I showed the pics of monkeymans13 saw to our safety engineer in our plant today. I will spare you his comments.., LOL. :stupid: :jester: :monkey:


----------



## infomet (Mar 16, 2007)

Kellog, good answer...full of info.
I was asking about the shiny bar sticking up vertically. It looks like it might be part of the tensioner but it's bolted in place. Maybe you tighten the bolt to hold the tensioner in place?? More pics would be great.

OK on the speed. I'm not arguing here and I'd have to look up the equations to make the calculations, but I'm pretty sure it's easy to overspeed a large blade because the centrifugal forces get large fast as the speed goes up. If someone spun up a big blade with no load, things could get nasty. Monkeyman's rig looks like he is running very little reduction, unless there's a gearhead on his engine.

Monkeyman, jump in and let us know about this.

It's great to hear 6 HP can do the job. Yes, that's more than chaiinsaw power, if you are winding up to 3600 rpm or so. I thought of running my flywheel on a separate jackshaft, so I could keep it at engine speed...to store a lot more energy. I thought of either a double sheave on the motor, one to the saw and one to the flywheel, or a double large sheave on the jackshaft with the second groove driving a jackshaft carrying the flywheel.
Of course we have to watch speed of the flywheel for the same reason as we watch blade speed. I expect this decision would be based upon 
what components were found lying around the basement at the time.

I have seen quite a few old buzz saws with original flywheels on the other end of the saw arbor. Usually about a foot in diameter.


----------



## infomet (Mar 16, 2007)

Well, I thought Belgian must have been talking about Monkeyman's saw. I think Kellog's is as safe as a chainsaw. If you keep both feet on the ground and both hands on the log, it shoud be hard to go wrong.

Hey Belgian, how did your English get so good? You aren't one of those KGB guys are you? 

BTW, I love Brussels beer AND waffles in Brugge! Blutwurst you can keep.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

kellog said:


> Belgian, you are right, without a doubt, a chainsaw is far more versatile than a cordwood saw. My question was more one of safety.
> 
> Do you have any thoughts on which might be safer and why? If not that's fine but being as you are from Europe I was hoping to get a different perspective on the safety issue. Also you said there are many cordwood saws in use near you.
> 
> There are very few cordwood saws in use in my area. Likely the versatility issue plays a great role as well as perceived safety.



Kellog, I think it's very good of you to consider the safety aspect. Most of the cordwood saws I see here have the blade totally guarded. The blade has a rotating blade cover, that lifts automatically when you push the wood holding table forward. A typical saw is shown below 







I think the safety standard of modern cordsaws today make it a more safer tool than a chainsaw, but to be honoust, I don't talk out of experience here.
good luck.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

> infomet said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Belgian, how did your English get so good? You aren't one of those KGB guys are you?
> ...


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to Infomet*

Infomet, The shiny perforated hollow square tube is part of the belt tensioner system. Below is a picture (although not a good one) of the tensioner system. The black bar pivots behind the belt and has the roller mounted to it. The perforated tube has a slot running from the bottom almost to the top. The bolt at the top is the pivot for the perf. tube. There is a large thumb screw to lock it in place. Sorry for the poor explaination. There is a raging nor'easter going on here (projected 15" of snow) so I won't go out and take a better picture right now. 

As far as a flywheel is concerned I personally would not bother. It is not needed if the blade is sharp and running at rated speed. Mine works perfect without it. But knock yourself out if you want to.

I don't think my saw is as safe as a chainsaw yet but when I add the new features I believe it will be safer despite no brake. These features include a cover for the open section of the blade that moves with the table, a foot treadle that will have to be actuated to start moving the table in, and a spring load on the table to the outward position. Should have these done this spring.


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to Belgian*

Belgian, thanks for the picture. That's a pretty slick looking unit. Looks pretty safe too. 

I'm a bit of a stickler for safety as I have seen too many people get hurt and mainly with chainsaws, wood splitters and table saws. I guess that comes with age. I have the upmost respect for these pieces of equipment. If you spend a little time thinking about them, most Safety features are easy to put on equipment and do not hurt the function.

I didn't mention it in other threads but I built a little safety feature into my log splitter to prevent the most often occurring injury, pinched fingers. The wedge is spring loaded forward so that if you have your finger poorly placed it will get pinched by the spring force (20-30 lbs or should I say 10 to 15 kg). This hurts and makes you pull your finger out before the full splitting force is applied and takes the finger off. You have to be quick though.


----------



## infomet (Mar 16, 2007)

Newtons.

1 lbf=4.448216 N


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to infomet*

Infomet, OK you're right. Should have used newtons.

You got me thinking earlier about over-speeding a blade and having it come apart. The surface speed increases with the radius but the centrifugal forces increase with the square of the radius I believe. 

So I looked in the Machinery Handbook (1988 edition). They have a table of circular saw blade speeds based on diameter. It shows 1200 RPM for a 30" blade used for wood so I assume it won't overstress the blade at all to run at this speed. Thanks for bringing it up though.

There was also good info in there about flywheels so you might want to look at that if you are going to put a flywheel on your machine.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

kellog said:


> I don't think my saw is as safe as a chainsaw yet but when I add the new features I believe it will be safer despite no brake. These features include a cover for the open section of the blade that moves with the table, a foot treadle that will have to be actuated to start moving the table in, and a spring load on the table to the outward position. Should have these done this spring.



I think that will do it


----------



## oakman (Mar 16, 2007)

monkeyman
your rig is an accident waiting to happen. a 30'' blade spinning at 3600 rpm's has a rim speed of over 28,200 sfpm, or roughly 350 miles per hour. wobble and oscillation are serious concerns on an oversped blade. cracks can develop, and go unnoticed. large diameter blades are supposed to be tensioned to run at the proper speed. 1000rpms should be max for that blade, and it should be inspected for cracks. if you are standing directly in front of it and it comes apart, it will slice you in half like a Katana through a watermelon. do yourself a favor and slow it down, and by all means stand off to the left.


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to infomet*

Infomet, I looked up the Dolmar cordwood saw that Belgian sent and found the following info on a website.

Sägeblatt Chromstahl
Leistung 7,0 kW
Schnitttiefe ca. 260 mm
Drehzahl 1400 U/min
Sägeblattdurchm. 700/30mm

I think this means it has a chrome steel blade, a 7 kilowatt motor (around 9 hp!!), max cutting depth 260 mm (10.23"), 1400 RPM speed and blade diameter 700 mm (27.5"). 

Belgian, please make sure I didn't screw up.

Looks like we are in the ball park except for the horsepower.


----------



## belgian (Mar 16, 2007)

kellog said:


> Infomet, I looked up the Dolmar cordwood saw that Belgian sent and found the following info on a website.
> 
> Sägeblatt Chromstahl
> Leistung 7,0 kW
> ...



Kellog, 

your translation is correct. The saw comes standard with a chrome steel blade(easier to sharpen), but as an option, you can have a blade with carbide tips (lasts longer, but difficult to sharpen, and more dangerous if you hit nails, etc.) I also looked up the user manual for you ; The chrome steel blade allows for up to 3000 rpm, the carbide tip blade up to 2700 rpm max.

please note that I just picked the dolmar saw as an example. there are many other manufacterers in europe building such saws. A quick search learned that driving power for most models with a 700 mm blade vary from min. 5,5 up to 8 kW max.

Since you are safety concerned, the good part of these tilting saws is that you need to operate the tilting wood table with two hands towards the blade. That's just my 02 cts of course.


----------



## kellog (Mar 16, 2007)

*Reply to Belgian*

Belgian,

thanks for all the hard work and helping out. Your info was great. 

I think we have beat this issue to death and now it is time to go build some good, safe cordwood saws.


----------



## infomet (Mar 16, 2007)

While we discuss the relative merits of the buzz, or cordwood, saw, rememner that they were here for a century or so before chainsaws showed up. I picked a few links in case someone wants to see more. I occasionally see a Dearborn rig, which I want to get for my 8N before I'm too old to run it.

Right now I'm getting a homemade one I bought at an auction hooked up. I'll get a picture in a day or two.

http://www.vermontmowers.com/Woodsman250.html

http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/D/Robert.J.Dougherty-1/nebraska/page10.html

http://crosscutsaw.com/15.html

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds23.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds29.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds26.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds27.gif

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/dragsaw/ds28.gif

http://www.geocities.com/picketfence/garden/4972/sawmill1.html

http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1550

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ford-Dearborn-C...mZ270097898188QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

As usual, there are more out there if you are willing to run the search. If you know of good sharpening/setting directions, I'd like to see them.


----------



## A. Stanton (Mar 17, 2007)

Does the guard on that machine ever get in your way?


----------



## kellog (Mar 17, 2007)

*Reply to Stanton*

Stanton, the guard rarely gets in the way. Only if you have a very crooked piece and you put the crooked part down or back(just keep it up and forward). If you have a branch sticking out of your wood and you put it down or back you have the same issue.  The guard really is no bother in general and even if it was I would use it.

One issue about the guard is that although most of the saw dust goes down, a little goes all the way around and comes out at the top of the guard. If you are in the plane of the blade it gives you a light saw dust shower. The modifications that I am making now will take care of that issue (and really you should not be in the plane of the blade anyway).


----------



## kellog (Mar 17, 2007)

*Reply to Infomet*

Infomet, I would like to see some good sharpening directions also. I use a file to file the teeth (Carbon steel blade). I don't really know how to "properly" sharpen the blade but I have sharpened way to many metal cutting tools in my day. I use the same theory. After sharpening the blade it cuts much faster than my chainsaw with a new chain so I think it is good but maybe there is a better way. I have never reset the teeth of my blade. It still has a good kerf and again cuts well. 


If any one has good directions can you share them?


----------



## kellog (Mar 19, 2007)

*Reply to Stanton*

Stanton,

I forgot one important fact about the blade guard. With an unguarded blade you need a catcher to take the cut pieces away from the saw. You cannot let them pile up or they will interfere with the blade. With the guard, you can let them pile up until the piece you are cutting hits the pile (3 feet high). Generally I can cut ten 84" pieces of wood into 21" pieces before moving any wood away from the saw. This makes you more flexible in how labor is distributed around the saw.


----------



## Monkeyman13 (Mar 21, 2007)

WOW, looks like I started quite the debate. I have used my old saw for a number of years and never really concidered it to be too dangerious in the design of it. But after reading the posts from everyone, I will try to rig up some safty guards. Once the snow goes away, and I can pull it out of the shop, I will see what we can do to make it more safe. 

One of the things that you guys got me thinking about and never ever concidered before is the RPMs the saw runs at. My thought was always the faster I can get it going, the better it will saw through logs. How would i measure the RPMs that the blade is running at? I would be courious to know where it is at.... 

Thanks for all the advice..


----------



## kellog (Mar 21, 2007)

*Reply to Monkeyman*

Monkeyman,

Thanks for being open to the suggestions offered by the group. I think you will not only find the saw safer but your productivity will go up with a guard. You can let the rounds fall and pile up instead of moving each one away.

The blade speed should be the engine speed times the ratio of the pulleys. For example if you have a 3600 RPM motor with a 4” pulley on it and you have an 8” pulley on the saw shaft, then you will have the blade running at 1800 RPM (3600 x 4 / 8 =1800).


----------



## atgreene (Mar 21, 2007)

Monkeyman13 said:


> WOW, looks like I started quite the debate. I have used my old saw for a number of years and never really concidered it to be too dangerious in the design of it. But after reading the posts from everyone, I will try to rig up some safty guards. Once the snow goes away, and I can pull it out of the shop, I will see what we can do to make it more safe.
> 
> One of the things that you guys got me thinking about and never ever concidered before is the RPMs the saw runs at. My thought was always the faster I can get it going, the better it will saw through logs. How would i measure the RPMs that the blade is running at? I would be courious to know where it is at....
> 
> Thanks for all the advice..



Monkeyman, I just found this site and happened upon your thread. Nice saw, we've got several and they work great. Around here we call them cordwood saws. From the time I was a little guy we have used them for cutting stove wood (primarily limb wood) for both the wood stove and the syrup evaporator. Some years we would do 6-10 cord on the cordwood saw. We had both 3 point hitch mounted belt and pto run as well as electric and one-lunger engines. My job as a kid was to take away the wood and stack in the trailer. I hated feeding to my father, so I always stuck my brother with that job. As long as you grab the wood from the end and catch it before if falls, I never had any trouble. 

As far as safety, it's like anything else, it's as safe as the person running it. Our shingle mill has an open blade inches from our fingers, our sawmill has a 42" blade that you stand next to, and yes, you could loose a finger, we prefer to keep our fingers away from the blade. Some people shouldn't run machinery, if your not comfortable with it, use what you're comfortable with. 

One trick to the saw that my father and grandfather always taught me was to always stand so that you don't straddle the blade. Keep your right hand left of the blade cut at all times. The edge of the table should be the furthest you ever get with your right hand. If so, you have nothing to worry about. 

As an EMT for 20 years or so, I've seen more accidents from chainsaws than from any other saws (and there are a lot of these cordwood saws in this area). I would rather run a cordwood than a chain saw, you stand in one spot, you're off-set from the blade, you never have to move your feet or loose your balance in the cut and the wood doesn't move while your cutting it. I think a lot of the criticizem you are receiving on it is from a lack of knowledge about it and how it works. People who don't run chain saws are scared of them as well.

As far as guards, make sure whatever you do doesn't creat an unsafe condition by jamming wood where it doesn't belong. If a small piece gets bound in between a guard and a saw, you could have a real problem on your hands.

Take care, good luck.


----------



## huskydave (Mar 21, 2007)

I WANT ONE!!!!!!!! looks like fun to me keep a healthy respect for it and feed the wood in at the right speed and you should be fine imo


----------



## kellog (Mar 22, 2007)

*Reply to Atgreene*

Atgreene, I agree with you that safe operation falls first and foremost to the operator. There is nobody smarter than a complete idiot when it comes to figuring out how to get hurt, safety devices or not.

You had the luxury of cheap labor when you were a kid so you used three people to run the saw. I generally use two people. I run the saw (the easiest job) and my son stages the wood and stacks the cut rounds (he is 6’2” 235 lbs and young). With the guard, he has time to do both jobs. He does not have to take each piece off the blade individually.

You are right about not being in the plane of the blade. If the blade were to ever come apart there would instantly be two of you.

I’m really glad you brought up the point about not letting a piece get inside the blade guard. I never cut very short pieces. The cut off piece must be at least 5” long so it will fall away from the blade and not sit up on the guard or worse fall between the blade and guard.

My biggest fear around a cordwood saw is losing footing while walking around the machine and falling toward the blade. Without a guard, you will meet your maker quickly. With a guard, you have good odds of being able to avoid the blade.


----------



## Happyjack (Mar 22, 2007)

Lets talk processing speed. How much faster does it cut through a log than saw a 50cc saw with a sharp blade on say a 16" piece of hard wood? Is entire process of blocking wood with cordsaw a lot faster than a chainsawsaw? It seems like you would have to lift the big sticks to the cord saw, as opposed to sawing them on the ground then rolling them over with a chainsaw. That machine looks scary!:fart:


----------



## atgreene (Mar 22, 2007)

We always did it because cord wood is so easy to handle in 4' bolts. We had a 2 cord trailer and would load up from various piles we had staged in the woods as we logged. Any limb wood would be bolted and piled beside a skid road so we could come back later and pick it up. That, and all the small 3-4" diameter stuff that we trimmed from around the sugar maples. It saved handle small fire wood in the woods. 

I'm in the process of building a 1 1/2 cord bolt trailer to haul with my excavator in the woods to pick up small wood like this. Should make a neat set-up to gather up all the stuff that tends to get left behind.


----------



## Monkeyman13 (Mar 23, 2007)

Happyjack said:


> Lets talk processing speed. How much faster does it cut through a log than saw a 50cc saw with a sharp blade on say a 16" piece of hard wood? Is entire process of blocking wood with cordsaw a lot faster than a chainsawsaw? It seems like you would have to lift the big sticks to the cord saw, as opposed to sawing them on the ground then rolling them over with a chainsaw. That machine looks scary!:fart:



For me, the cordsaw is much faster and easier on the ol back. I used to chain saw all my firewood. I had a couple sawhorses set up with a jig to space out my cuttings evenly. I work on my own so I'd have to put the chain saw down each time I wanted to move the log, to cut by chain saw took a long time the cordsaw on the other hand, in my mind 10 times faster and 100 times easier on the back.


----------



## kellog (Mar 23, 2007)

*Cordwood Saw Efficiency – Happyjack*

Happyjack,

I don’t cut anything over 12” diameter with the cordwood saw. Larger pieces get cut with a chain saw. However 95% of what I cut for my personal use is under 12” and most is under 10”. When I have help getting it up on the saw, it goes to 12”.

The actual cutting speed is faster with a cordwood saw but the staging is slower. So a good, healthy, young, strong chainsaw man could likely do more in 8 hrs than a single man with a cordwood saw. However if I am cutting alone I can only cut for two hours max with a chainsaw before my back is killing me (I have celebrated my 39th birthday entirely too many times). I can cut all day long with a cordwood saw. 

That good healthy man with the chain saw is going to be tired by the end of the day. The cordwood saw guy will be able to party all night. Cordwood sawing is really less tiring because you stand straight up most of the time.

You are right in that a chainsaw is more flexible and perhaps faster but when you get to be 39 as many times as I have, I bet you will be eyeing a cordwood saw also.

Nice to have another CT person chiming in.


----------



## A100HVA (Apr 1, 2007)

i am too,going to build one to haul around with atv to saw limbs with. i have this burning desire to saw with one now that the chainsaw thing has been met.lot of good sound tips here,thanks


----------



## kellog (Apr 7, 2007)

*Reply to Infomet*

Infomet,

I totally forgot that I was going to take a couple of pictures of the belt tensioning mechanism for my cordwood saw for you. If you recall when we discussed it on this thread (on 16 March) there was a raging nor’easter going on here and I wasn’t going to go out in it to take a picture for you. 

Well I forgot about it and today as I was taking the machine out to cut some wood I remembered. So here are the pictures. 862 is with the belt loose and 863 is with it tight.
Both the black bar with the roller on it and the perforated square tube pivot about their respective upper ends. There is a slot cut almost all the way up the perforated tube with a bolt going thru it. There is a thumb screw to tighten the bolt.

I hope this is clear. Sorry for taking so long.


----------



## SawTroll (Apr 12, 2007)

Monkeyman13 said:


> ....
> 
> Attached is a pic of the saw, as it was just after modifying it. I have already made some additional mods to it. Runs like a charm, needless to say, saves a tonne of work...



Ouuccchhhh, I just hate those buzz-saws, just for the sound, and remembering my then 85ish FIL standing to the left of the blade, and throwing the cut off pieces away with his right arm, at the right side of the blade - no protection shields or anything like it......:jawdrop: :jawdrop: 


...a decent chainsaw is much more efficient anyway.....:greenchainsaw: :greenchainsaw:


----------



## kellog (Apr 13, 2007)

*Reply to Sawtroll*

Sawtroll,

Your father-in-law came from a different era. I would never do what he did, never. You are correct in that Cordwood saws does give off a rather irritating buzz when cutting. That is why we wear hearing protection at all times when using the saw. A good pair of shooter’s earmuffs do the job quite well. You should also use them when chain sawing.

Although I believe a chain saw has more flexibility, I think chain saw safety is not the best (in fact it is downright poor). A blade going that fast needs to be bolted to something so you know exactly where it is at all times. Further it should be guarded to prevent inadvertent contact at most times. This is my personal philosophy. 

Cordwood saws are also very good for us old farts that have bad backs because you stand up straight most of the time. 

I use chain saws and will always use them however I use them only when I must. If a cordwood saw or chop saw can get the job done I will use it.

We all have our different opinions on things and that is a good thing. The above is mine. 

By the way how did you learn such good English. Belgian was a KGB agent.

Should have my modifications done to the cordwood saw next week. Will post pictures soon.


----------



## 046 (Apr 13, 2007)

good grief! that got to be one of the most unsafe tools... I've ever seen. no way in H*ll you'd catch me operating something that unsafe. 

but to each it's own....


----------



## kellog (Apr 22, 2007)

As promised, attached are pictures of some of the modifications to my cordwood saw that I said I would do this spring. 

I incorporated the moving blade guard which covers the blade most of the time. It rolls on unground ball bearings (like the ones in file drawers) along a track of 1/8” x 1" x 1” angle iron on top of the original blade guard.

Also added the “knee treadle” to lock the table in the out position. You lift the treadle with your knee and move the table an inch or so and then it is free to move in without touching the treadle. 

I also added a measuring bar (the white bar attached to the table). This bar is marked off in inches with zero being at the blade and the numbers increasing both to the left and right. It difficult to see the markings in the pictures.

I just finished the mods and have not even tried them out yet. The paint is still pretty. Pictures of the saw before the mods are in this thread.

One more mod to add sometime and that is the spring load on the table to the outward position. That may have to wait as I have to cut wood before it gets to 98 degrees in the shade (that’s 37 to you Belgian).

Safety First!!


----------



## roy clarke (Sep 11, 2007)

infomet said:


> You get so many questions and suggestions here because many of us envy someone having something finished and usable! ...........



Finished??? FINISHED!!!?????? It isn't "finished" it's just a lab lash-up to see if a motor can turn a blade, it is NOT finished, but anyone using could be.

PS, I don't like regulations either, but I do find a use for ten fingers most days.


----------

