# need some opinions



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

So their is this tree, it's a London Plane tree. It has a major vine problem, the customer wants me to prune it. I went and looked at it today realizing that the vine problem is the most significant problem. It looks like it has been topped at one time but it is hard to see with all the vine. That is my assumption based upon the branches growing straight up and most of the other Plane trees on the block have been topped too. I don't see much as far as trimming other than a little elevation over the house and street. All the other Plane trees that have been topped seemed to have healed pretty well from the topping. 

My question is how do you think I should go about removing the vines? I was thinking a handsaw would be best in order to keep from injuring the tree. Do you think I could use a small top handle chainsaw on the larger lower vines if i'm careful? The thing is I think this is going to be a very time consuming task and I want to do a good job.


----------



## treeslayer (Jan 5, 2010)

sounds like you have never de-vined a tree, you are in for a very lengthy lesson in futile effort.
IMHO;
1) you better have have a bucket or lift. 
2) the vines have grown into the bark usually.
3) The stuff will not chip, only clog. you invariably have to roll it up with 
a skidsteer and stuff it into the truck or trailer.
4) cutting apart and then pulling the vines off with a machine works best, without breaking
the limbs is the hard part.
5) put LOTS of hours on it.

I have done a lot of vine pruning years ago, won't touch it now.

good luck, though.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 5, 2010)

That vines gonna whip your lilly Pensi ass! :hmm3grin2orange:

















J/k. lol. A sugoi with that vine cutting tip might help some....either way thats a bad one there, price it high enough. Kinda odd these people wait till the dead of winter to go getting this priced out huh?


----------



## BC WetCoast (Jan 5, 2010)

We've done English ivy before, and it's time consuming but not that hard. 

For the larger lower sections, cut around the tree in 3' sections, then rip the section vertically and it usually just peels off. A screwdriver or prybar helps to get one stem lifted. As you get into the smaller branches, then a handsaw works better.

Once you get into the smaller stems, just grab one and pull. They are stuck, but pull off fairly easily if you grab an end.

I've found the larger stems chip ok, not quite so well in the smaller stems. Your knives need to be sharp. 

I've had artists ask me to save the peeled larger sections because of the interesting look.

Just put lots of hours on the job. If the homeowner balks at price, you can just remove a 1' strip around the base of the tree and the ivy in the rest of the tree will die fairly quickly. Still look bad, though.


----------



## treemandan (Jan 5, 2010)

I think once you get started you will make some headway. Still not going to be quickly done. It really helps to have 2 climbers armed with things like hand pruners, little prybars, hand saws and thing like that.
I would not give a quote, I would give an hourly rate ( 125) with 2 guys and a estimate of how long to do it. 8 hours at least I think.


----------



## treeman82 (Jan 5, 2010)

With that amount of vines present, I'd probably tell the people (unless they are in a big rush to get it done) that I'd cut out the bottom 10' or so and leave the rest to die off, then come back and clean it out later on.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 5, 2010)

treeman82 said:


> With that amount of vines present, I'd probably tell the people (unless they are in a big rush to get it done) that I'd cut out the bottom 10' or so and leave the rest to die off, then come back and clean it out later on.



I would go 30-40 ft, they are a PITA when dried out. Give two options, an immaculate job where you pick everything out and charge a lot, and a price for getting the big parts out so that the fine stems will dry up and fall out. Most times people will happily pay for the latter. You will probably find a few dead stubs in the vine mats.

Having a hammer and chisel for the lower stems may help keeping the trunk from getting damaged. 






one thing you may want to try is cutting the basal stem long, putting a prussic on, and pulling the stumps with a vehicle; it works sometimes, most of the time the break. They are so well grafted that it will be "fun" no matter what.


----------



## treeslayer (Jan 5, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I would not give a quote, I would give an hourly rate ( 125) with 2 guys and a estimate of how long to do it. 8 hours at least I think.



:agree2:


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

I have done vine removals before but nothing to this extent. I think my chuck and duck can handle it. I have chipped english ivy before and it did pretty well. I just have to cut it into wide enough pieces to go through my chipper. I was thinking it would take the whole day if not longer for one guy climbing. I would like to have another climber though to make it easier. TDM what do ya think, ya wanna tackle it with me? I don't own a bucket truck so I think thats out of the question. Doesn't look to bad if we climbed it. I think though it would be better to start from the top and work down because the vine is so thick it's gonna be hard to see and get a grip. 

Thanks for some of the good tips guy I will definatly be trying all of them if she goes for it.


----------



## treeslayer (Jan 5, 2010)

you can do it bobby bouchet!!


----------



## nms0219 (Jan 5, 2010)

I think this is a candidate for complete removal. Their is way to much to try and save it, no matter what you do their will be alot of damage to the tree. jmo.


----------



## treemandan (Jan 5, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> I have done vine removals before but nothing to this extent. I think my chuck and duck can handle it. I have chipped english ivy before and it did pretty well. I just have to cut it into wide enough pieces to go through my chipper. I was thinking it would take the whole day if not longer for one guy climbing. I would like to have another climber though to make it easier. TDM what do ya think, ya wanna tackle it with me? I don't own a bucket truck so I think thats out of the question. Doesn't look to bad if we climbed it. I think though it would be better to start from the top and work down because the vine is so thick it's gonna be hard to see and get a grip.
> 
> Thanks for some of the good tips guy I will definatly be trying all of them if she goes for it.




Sure. With 2 we can work on different areas alone then swing over to help pull the stuff down for each other. That is how I have done it in the past. I am not afraid to mess with it but the HO better be ready to pay the bill. I don't think chipping will be that hard either. Compared to what we deal with that ivy is a cake walk.


----------



## treemandan (Jan 5, 2010)

nms0219 said:


> I think this is a candidate for complete removal. Their is way to much to try and save it, no matter what you do their will be alot of damage to the tree. jmo.



Good point. As long as the HO is aware that bark will get pulled off the de-vine is still do-able I think. I mean if that is what they want.


----------



## prorover (Jan 5, 2010)

*english ivy*

i did a lot of english ivy removal in the pacific northwest....first i like to do the large lower stuff with 200t, and a crow bar. I did this as high as my ladder could reach. Then set a single line in above the ivy. I like to then get above the Ivy and work my way down with a smaller crow bar and a hand saw...I did a lot of it!!!!! !A large big leaf maple wuild take half a day.


----------



## prorover (Jan 5, 2010)

*one whole day*

this tree looks like one whole day....wish i could do it


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

I might add that the lady is really fond on keeping this tree. I actually worked on this property 5 years ago when I worked for my last boss. He told the HO that the vines were OK and he's a certified arborist. I think he didn't want to get involve in the removal of vines.


----------



## mckeetree (Jan 5, 2010)

I am usually so expensive on jobs like that I never get them. When folks want us to fool with vines like that, they better get out that old l-o-n-g yellow checkbook.


----------



## mckeetree (Jan 5, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> I think he didn't want to get involve in the removal of vines.



I guarantee you he didn't.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Good point. As long as the HO is aware that bark will get pulled off the de-vine is still do-able I think. I mean if that is what they want.



do you think the bark will really get pulled off? I've taken english ivy off before an didn't notice that much damage. It does have smoother bark so that might help. I guess the only way to find out is try by taking a sample piece off.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Same thing here, it's not as bad as you think. However you have no central leader. Sorry ISA your going to have to spike it. Start from the top and try to spike the ivy more then the tree on your way down. Ivy is a well deserved break for our bandit 250xp it loves it.If had to use a whipper chipper i would bring a dump truck.



What spike it??? I think I can set a line in the top and ascend up then work my way down. Just set the line away from the trunk so your not climbing through the ivy. I guess it is thick enough though that you could spike it.


----------



## treemandan (Jan 5, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> I might add that the lady is really fond on keeping this tree. I actually worked on this property 5 years ago when I worked for my last boss. He told the HO that the vines were OK and he's a certified arborist. I think he didn't want to get involve in the removal of vines.



So if she goes for somewhere around a G for the de-vine I think it would be worth doing the job. I also think the ivy comes off pretty well without to much bark damage but its still going to be a mess.
I don't beleive the ivy is hurting the tree that bad. One thing to consider is the bark will be getting sun it is not used to getting.


----------



## treemandan (Jan 5, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Same thing here, it's not as bad as you think. However you have no central leader. Sorry ISA your going to have to spike it. Start from the top and try to spike the ivy more then the tree on your way down. Ivy is a well deserved break for our bandit 250xp it loves it.If had to use a whipper chipper i would bring a dump truck.



Its Ok, stand back, we don't need the spikes... at all.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

treemandan said:


> So if she goes for somewhere around a G for the de-vine I think it would be worth doing the job. I also think the ivy comes off pretty well without to much bark damage but its still going to be a mess.
> I don't beleive the ivy is hurting the tree that bad. One thing to consider is the bark will be getting sun it is not used to getting.



I think it is adding alot of extra weight to the top and will eventually choke the canopy out. You do have a good point about the bark being exsposed to new sun light.


----------



## treemandan (Jan 5, 2010)

Yeah on thin barked trees like that it might be a problem opening it up to sunlight. Maybe do some work to clear out some of the top and cut it at the bottom so it dies for now then do some work in the future.


----------



## BRCCArborist (Jan 5, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Yeah on thin barked trees like that it might be a problem opening it up to sunlight. Maybe do some work to clear out some of the top and cut it at the bottom so it dies for now then do some work in the future.



Thats the best approach to ivy. If it's been on the tree for long enough the bark can be kind of weak and break off.Let it die and then kind of shave it off with your handsaw.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 5, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Sorry ISA your going to have to spike it.



Lock up your ducks, cuz he's smoking quack!

Throw ball and foot lock is no problem here.


----------



## mr. holden wood (Jan 5, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Its Ok, stand back, we don't need the spikes... at all.



You'll never know just from looking at a picture.I'm not saying start with spurs but when your doing ivy removal it may be needed. If you have a good TIP great don't use them. That tree is as good as dead in it's current state. Even if there is a little mechanical damage its better off then its current state.


----------



## treevet (Jan 5, 2010)

Cut sections out of the bottom vines and save the ho some bucks. Be careful when cutting not to injure the bark on the tree. It will take 2 full seasons for the smaller vines to fall off after all the leaves fall off and a little into the third season for the bigger stuff. Tell them you will charge a nominal fee to keep the debris off their yard. Tell them the bark will likely be injured in the process if you tear and cut it all off. That job is Chinese water torture. If someone else gets the job, pull up a lawn chair next door and enjoy watching the fiasco.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 5, 2010)

treevet said:


> Cut sections out of the bottom vines and save the ho some bucks. Be careful when cutting not to injure the bark on the tree. It will take 2 full seasons for the smaller vines to fall off after all the leaves fall off and a little into the third season for the bigger stuff. Tell them you will charge a nominal fee to keep the debris off their yard. Tell them the bark will likely be injured in the process if you tear and cut it all off. That job is Chinese water torture. If someone else gets the job, pull up a lawn chair next door and enjoy watching the fiasco.



I'm thinking that might be the best choice with all things considered. I have a feeling the HO isn't going to want tp pay a grand to have the vines ripped off.


----------



## treevet (Jan 5, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> I'm thinking that might be the best choice with all things considered. I have a feeling the HO isn't going to want tp pay a grand to have the vines ripped off.



I'd charge at least a couple hun to carefully section out the vines and clean up by yourself.


----------



## pdqdl (Jan 5, 2010)

1. Quote them a cheap price to cut the stumps and return in the spring to treat the re-growth.

2. Quote them a price to clear the vines up to where the branches start to fork out (or any other point you choose).

3. Then give them a quote to clean the whole tree. 

After they recover from the #3 sticker shock, they will think the first option is too cheap, and the reasonable cleanup effort will sound about right.


----------



## danh8866 (Jan 5, 2010)

I have some experience with vine removal you should be ok if you take it methodically and dont get frustrated. lol good luck with that! I usually cut the bases of the vines at the base with my sugoui all the way around the tree, then work my way up in 10 to 15 ft increments. Alot of up down up down but this method works best for me.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 6, 2010)

" I went and looked at it today realizing that the vine problem is the most significant problem. "

why? your old boss may have seen it was not shading a lot of tree leaves so it was not a problem. [Is he cool with you taking on that account? 

"Do you think I could use a small top handle chainsaw on the larger lower vines if i'm careful?"

Yes, but first consider working from the top down. Why not just clip it back to the red lines in the attached and return periodically?

And if anyone thinks spikes are needed to climb this easy peasy tree, or that it is in poor condition, please explain; I do not understand.


----------



## NeTree (Jan 6, 2010)

Ditto.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 6, 2010)

treeseer said:


> " I went and looked at it today realizing that the vine problem is the most significant problem. "
> 
> why? your old boss may have seen it was not shading a lot of tree leaves so it was not a problem. [Is he cool with you taking on that account?
> 
> ...



I think looking at the tree's vine problem being that it was topped that those vines could be a weight issue. Also I think that the vines have already taken out lower branches by choking them out. I think that if left alone the vines will be a signicant factor in the trees death.

I don't want to get on an ex-boss bashing thing here but we have a little bit of bad blood. He is now my competition so yes of course if one of his customers calls me I sure as hell am going to try to take him. I can drive down the road from my house and take a picture of one of his master pieces that would make you go:jawdrop: He's certifiied and he has topped trees like two beautiful 60yr old red oaks. 

I think treevet had the best idea of severing the vines at the trunk and removing a section, letting the rest die and clean up later as they fall off the tree. I think this will be the best choice to insure that no damage is done to the bark from either peeling it off or acsesive sun light getting to the trunk. I'm concern that taking all the vines off at one time will cause injury to the bark. 

If the customer wants to pay the money to have me remove all the vines I will but she will have to be made aware of my concerns with doing this. I think after I present alll the options she will choose the cheapest safest option.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 6, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> I think looking at the tree's vine problem being that it was topped that those vines could be a weight issue. Also I think that the vines have already taken out lower branches by choking them out. I think that if left alone the vines will be a signicant factor in the trees death.



:agree2:

So the question is, what to do about it--periodically clip the vines back to where they are not a weight or a shade problem, or declare war. The client obviously does not mind the vines on the trunk--why should she spend money to remove a non-problem?

She may like the arborist approach of managing woody plants, vs. vegetation management that runs up the bill and shocks the tree for no good reason.

Here's the suggested pruning approach. 

And sure, you can post pics of topped red oaks, IF you include the history, like storm damage.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 6, 2010)

treeseer said:


> :agree2:
> 
> So the question is, what to do about it--periodically clip the vines back to where they are not a weight or a shade problem, or declare war. The client obviously does not mind the vines on the trunk--why should she spend money to remove a non-problem?
> 
> ...



Thats a good point, if she wants to go that route I will certainly do it for her. I think it will cost her more money in the long run though if I have to come back to clip the vines back. I'm thinking five to six hundred buck a pop can add up over the years. 

Do you think that severing the trunk vines and letting them die and fall off the tree slowly will shock the tree that much? After the leaves fall off, the woody stems of the vines will be left. I think this will expose the bark more slowly to sun light. The trunk is thick with vines so I could be wrong in my theory and no matter when the trunk vines are removed it will shock the tree.
What do you think?

I'm not going to get into the topped red oaks. All i can say is they were very healthy with no prior history of storm damage. My buddy worked with me there who is certified and refused to do it, so the boss brought in some crazy dude who hacked the crap out of them.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 6, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Yes, but first consider working from the top down. Why not just clip it back to the red lines in the attached and return periodically?



Sorry, Guy, I think this is really bad advice. Aside from the fact what you are recommending will grow back within a year, creating an unnecessary financial burden on the homeowner, I think this is looking at the situation from one side only. 

Analyzing the situation, the tree is in a busy neighborhood, over a side walk and street, close proximity to a house. Putting aside the debate of whether ivy can damage a tree or not, there is no debate on that ivy inhibits inspection of branch attachment, unions and resulting structural integrity.

So from a purely practical standpoint it prevents the HO and/or arborist from recognizing and possibly mitigating a problem. 

On a purely personal note, I think the ivy looks awful in this particular location. In a more naturalized setting, possibly. But if the homeowner likes the look of ivy, she has a brick house...let it grow there, or build an arbor. When I look at a beautiful tree, I want to be able to see it. 

I repeat, this is just a personal quirk of mine, probably stems from being an arborist. 

Dave


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 6, 2010)

D Mc said:


> Sorry, Guy, I think this is really bad advice. Aside from the fact what you are recommending will grow back within a year, creating an unnecessary financial burden on the homeowner, I think this is looking at the situation from one side only.
> 
> Analyzing the situation, the tree is in a busy neighborhood, over a side walk and street, close proximity to a house. Putting aside the debate of whether ivy can damage a tree or not, there is no debate on that ivy inhibits inspection of branch attachment, unions and resulting structural integrity.
> 
> ...



Another very good point to bring to the customers attention.

My biggest worry is am I doing more harm to the tree by removing all the vines?

If not then what is the safest way to do this without causing harm?

If so then I should clearly remove some of the vine in the upper canopy so I can inspect the tree for structural hazards.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 6, 2010)

It is a concern, NC. Here again, looking at this particular situation, it is in a location with hardscape, buildings and such where environmental stresses could be exaggerated. It is like so many things with trees, so much better to prevent a problem than to try to fix it after it happens. 

Plane trees are tough and odds are it would be fine. But there is that chance. This is something you will have to analyze because you are the one on site. Approach it with your client, give her the options and possible consequences. 

With this thought, cutting the vines and letting them die in the tree will have the staged effect, be less costly but may create a fairly constant litter problem over a longer period of time that may or may not be acceptable to the client. Not to mention the neighborhood.

Dave


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 6, 2010)

Well I met with the customer an presented the options. We have come to the decision to sever the vines at the base of the trunk and let them die slowly.
I am also going to trim some low branches over the house and street plus inspect the tree where it was topped for any structural hazards. She has made it clear that she is sick of the vines and would like them to go and I don't blame her.

I would like to thank everyone for the advice, she was definitely impressed with my presentation.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 6, 2010)

*I was gonna say this earlier....*

Aren't we talking about the same trees that take so well to pollarding??
Seems like the sun wouldn't be such a problem taking that into consideration.

I would have told her a grand (if that's what your happy with) and just cut the vines out once and for all. If they are grown into the trunk here and there, leave that part for now, it should shrivel up and fall off later. Its not like you put them there... and they are pretty much a parasite at this point. Let the tree breath for once, if it dies at this point at least it got free of those wretched things before its death.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 6, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Aren't we talking about the same trees that take so well to pollarding??
> Seems like the sun wouldn't be such a problem taking that into consideration.



There is a difference between bark that has been exposed to the sun with regular pollarding and removing large vine stems that have been covering the tree trunk for a decade or more.

Maybe if there is a rainy season that is usually cloudy? Staple burlap to the trunk for a season?


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 6, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> There is a difference between bark that has been exposed to the sun with regular pollarding and removing large vine stems that have been covering the tree trunk for a decade or more.
> 
> Maybe if there is a rainy season that is usually cloudy? Staple burlap to the trunk for a season?



Good point... still better now than in mid summer though, as the suns intensity will gradually increase in the spring, allowing the tree time to adjust no?? just thinking here. 

The burlap is a good idea. Labor intensive and costly, but a good idea.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 6, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> We have come to the decision to sever the vines at the base of the trunk and let them die slowly.



If this is the method chosen you will not need the burlap.

Dave


----------



## mr. holden wood (Jan 6, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> There is a difference between bark that has been exposed to the sun with regular pollarding and removing large vine stems that have been covering the tree trunk for a decade or more.
> 
> Maybe if there is a rainy season that is usually cloudy? Staple burlap to the trunk for a season?



Recent research indicates temperature on the the bark is greater with trunk wraps.They also hold moisture, leading to fungal problems. Trees are better off without them. Remove as much ivy as possible. The tree even with a few nicks will be much better off. I have seen several declining maples due to old dead ivy.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 6, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Recent research indicates temperature on the the bark is greater with trunk wraps.They also hold moisture, leading to fungal problems. Trees are better off without them. Remove as much ivy as possible. The tree even with a few nicks will be much better off. I have seen several declining maples due to old dead ivy.



Personally, I would have just taken the vine off - without the spikes though!


----------



## treeseer (Jan 6, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Recent research indicates temperature on the the bark is greater with trunk wraps.They also hold moisture, leading to fungal problems.


Please cite this research; was it done with burlap?.

Periodic (not annual) clipping back works well for many trees in many places, probably not the street though. And NC we are talking about an hour's climbing time; no great financial burden. if you get $5-600 for that you are doing well.

Dave Yes vines can obscure trees from inspection, that is a factor but not a dealbreaker. Arborists can deal with woody plants in many ways; vegetation managers just know one way. 

Glad the client agreed to your plan; we'll see how well she likes dead crap falling on the sidewalk 24/7/365. You might be stripping it all later on after all.


----------



## mr. holden wood (Jan 6, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Personally, I would have just taken the vine off - without the spikes though!



This summer I did ivy removal on massive big leaf maples for five days in a row, it sucked. At times you would be on the main stem 10-15 feet from the nearest branch so you have no foot hold. Even with a high T.I.P your still so sucked into the stem it's extremely difficult to get any work done. We tried everything, foot loops ,re-directs multiple tie in points.Even doing this you use to much energy bracing. The client was adamant that we removed all the ivy so it put you in alot of tricky situations. If you have lots of experience with this terriable task i'd like to hear your advice.


----------



## mr. holden wood (Jan 6, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Please cite this research; was it done with burlap?.
> 
> Periodic (not annual) clipping back works well for many trees in many places, probably not the street though. And NC we are talking about an hour's climbing time; no great financial burden. if you get $5-600 for that you are doing well.
> 
> ...



-Sharon J. Lilly,Arborists Certification Study Guide,International Society of Arboriculture It uses the term "tree wraps" I would think that would include burlap.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 6, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> -Sharon J. Lilly,Arborists Certification Study Guide,International Society of Arboriculture It uses the term "tree wraps" I would think that would include burlap.



I'm away from my books now (and on my cell phone), but are you sure they weren't talking about wrapping the trunks on newly planted thin barked trees, to prevent frost cracks? 

Not exactly the same thing as what we're talking about here...I don't think anyways.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 6, 2010)

the study guide is pretty general I don't think it covers tree that have been incased with vines for 10 years.


----------



## mr. holden wood (Jan 6, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I'm away from my books now (and on my cell phone), but are you sure they weren't talking about wrapping the trunks on newly planted thin barked trees, to prevent frost cracks?
> 
> Not exactly the same thing as what we're talking about here...I don't think anyways.



It was specfically talking about sunscald on transplanted trees. A tree dosen't go through much more strees then when trasplanted so I think it applies. I agree with you NCtree the guide is general but other arborist around here have told me the same thing. We have pulled ivy from trees that have been engulfed in ivy for ten-15 years with no ill effect. It's cool sight to see a ivy trelis turn into a tree when your done.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 6, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I'm away from my books now (and on my cell phone), but are you sure they weren't talking about wrapping the trunks on newly planted thin barked trees, to prevent frost cracks?



This is the tarpaper wrap, it is to protect against sunscald and mechanical damage. But it does cause problems if left on for long periods. Burlap lets the air through, I've used it against catapillars, and you can grow turf though it. It acts more as a lathhouse does in a garden.

Just cutting the vine and letting it die back would have an advantage, but it does have to come off sometime.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 6, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> This is the tarpaper wrap, it is to protect against sunscald and mechanical damage. But it does cause problems if left on for long periods. Burlap lets the air through, I've used it against catapillars, and you can grow turf though it. It acts more as a lathhouse does in a garden.
> 
> Just cutting the vine and letting it die back would have an advantage, but it does have to come off sometime.



Yeah, I couldn't remember why they wrapped em like that. At first I typed sunscald

I agree the burlap in the crown should breath pretty well.


----------



## treevet (Jan 6, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Glad the client agreed to your plan; we'll see how well she likes dead crap falling on the sidewalk 24/7/365. You might be stripping it all later on after all.



It is really not all that dramatic Guy.

I did my own (along with many many more) in my current house when I moved in 8 years ago on a giant Pin oak and it was easily manageable on a weekly basis, sometimes monthly basis over 2 years plus after the leaves died.. Once down to the big stuff it can be pulled off easily with a pole saw.


----------



## pdqdl (Jan 7, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> -Sharon J. Lilly,Arborists Certification Study Guide,International Society of Arboriculture It uses the term "tree wraps" I would think that would include burlap.



As I recall (not having done ANY review), those comments were rather specific to darkly colored tree wrap. I also recall that white or brightly reflective tree wraps that were loosely attached were preferred.

The problem with the tree wraps is mostly during winter, when the winter sun warms the darker colored tree wrap (or just plain bark, too). During very cold weather, the warming of the sun causes sublimation (the water goes straight from frozen into the air) and subsequent death of the cambium, generally on the SW side of the tree. Obviously, a similar problem is created in drought conditions for recently transplanted trees during the summer. The insulating effect of tight and dark tree wrap materials make the problem worse, rather than affording protection, as intended.

I suppose that the drought & heat related issues become more important as you begin to consider warmer climates than the midwest USA.

A loose reflective wrap does give protection, since it reflects heat and still allows cooling air movement next to the bark.


----------



## outofmytree (Jan 7, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Please cite this research; was it done with burlap?.
> 
> Periodic (not annual) clipping back works well for many trees in many places, probably not the street though. And NC we are talking about an hour's climbing time; no great financial burden. if you get $5-600 for that you are doing well.
> 
> ...



The only good vine(on a tree) is a dead vine(on a tree). I wish we had a smilie that looked like Clint Eastwood. You know, spaghetti western Clint with the poncho and cheap ciger. But with a Zubat in one hand and a Stihl tool in the other. 

It's all over now but I deal with vines the self same way. Remove a foor clear around the trunk. Come back in 12 months and remove the debris. It has far less affect on the bark when you remove it. I have removed the same ivy (English Ivy?) from several cocos palms and it was stuck on so hard parts of the exterior (not really bark) peeled off with it. 

As to the mess a dying vine would create.... It is on a London Plane tree..... It doesnt get much messier than that.....


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 7, 2010)

*Best i could find*












http://images.google.com/images?hl=...window=1&q=cowboy+smiley&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=18


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

that second one is "you" doc.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 7, 2010)

Pry the vine away from bark near base and use a paint brush and garlon and let time do its thing.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 7, 2010)

Hey Rope, do you use that stuff often? How does it work in such close proximity with other tree roots? It is listed as mobile in the soil. 

The AI Triclopyr is some pretty nasty stuff. 

Dave


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

D Mc said:


> Hey Rope, do you use that stuff often? How does it work in such close proximity with other tree roots? It is listed as mobile in the soil.
> 
> The AI Triclopyr is some pretty nasty stuff.
> 
> Dave



Is there literally a "list" such as that. Wonder how Immidacloprid fares on the list?


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 7, 2010)

*THe deed is done*

So I went over and killed them dam vines. I used a 192t and a pry bar. It took some careful cutting to make sure I didn't injure the tree. I cut them in sections and peeled them off with pry bar. The vines took a layer of bark off but did go into the inner bark or cambium. I have to admit I was a little worried at first but it wasn't that bad. It took about and hour to do. I'm planning on going back Monday with my crew to trim the tree and inspect it for hazards. We will see how she does, time will tell.


----------



## treeslayer (Jan 7, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> So I went over and killed them dam vines. I used a 192t and a pry bar. It took some careful cutting to make sure I didn't injure the tree. I cut them in sections and peeled them off with pry bar. The vines took a layer of bark off but did go into the inner bark or cambium. I have to admit I was a little worried at first but it wasn't that bad. It took about and hour to do.




Based on doing that one section, how long would it take you to do the whole tree you think?

probably be a good idea to cut more sections out while you're up there,in case some of its hit the cambium anywhere and still drinking.


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

nice job man


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 7, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> Based on doing that one section, how long would it take you to do the whole tree you think?
> 
> probably be a good idea to cut more sections out while you're up there,in case some of its hit the cambium anywhere and still drinking.



I would say by myself a day and a half. I guess before I did it that it would cost the HO $1000 to $1500 T/M.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 7, 2010)

D Mc said:


> Hey Rope, do you use that stuff often? How does it work in such close proximity with other tree roots? It is listed as mobile in the soil.
> 
> The AI Triclopyr is some pretty nasty stuff.
> 
> Dave



I sprayed prolly near 600 gallons of it no telling how much tordon 101 Which is more traveling. 
Garlon used as basal treatment is a good solution to troublesome plants. It is more prone to drift burning foliage than ground travel. Now spike is the real #### lol.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 7, 2010)

TV, there may be a list with all the different pesticides in one reference but I haven't found it yet. We google the AI but go to several sites to get the whole story. Not all sites will be reporting on the same formulation.

Dave


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

D Mc said:


> TV, there may be a list with all the different pesticides in one reference but I haven't found it yet. We google the AI but go to several sites to get the whole story. Not all sites will be reporting on the same formulation.
> 
> Dave



thanks Dave


----------



## D Mc (Jan 7, 2010)

NC,good job. Did anyone else notice the trunk deformations that appear to be from constriction not dissimilar to SGR's.

Dave


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 7, 2010)

Do you think the vines are sucking juice from the tree any where up in the tree?


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 7, 2010)

d mc said:


> nc,good job. Did anyone else notice the trunk deformations that appear to be from constriction not dissimilar to sgr's.
> 
> Dave



sgr???


----------



## D Mc (Jan 7, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> Do you think the vines are sucking juice from the tree any where up in the tree?



No. SGR's= surface girdling roots.

Dave


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> Do you think the vines are sucking juice from the tree any where up in the tree?



Not parasitic. Really of no consequence until they cover foliage, but they do hide faults. There are actually some beneficial aspects in that they do retain moisture on the ground like mulch and they keep mowers and other injurious machines away.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 7, 2010)

*I may not an Uber-Arb, but...*

I'm sorry, but I say that tree is dying to shake off that skanky ass vine... I'll bet it wouldn't mind a little suntan this spring either.

Those vines are like a thousand crossovers strangling the poor thing.

I think you guys are barely even helping it with this milktoast approach.


----------



## pdqdl (Jan 7, 2010)

D Mc said:


> TV, there may be a list with all the different pesticides in one reference but I haven't found it yet. We google the AI but go to several sites to get the whole story. Not all sites will be reporting on the same formulation.
> 
> Dave



Try this one: http://www.cdms.net/LabelsMsds/LMDefault.aspx

What CDMS does not list, you probably don't need to know about. It is a little tricky to learn how to use, though.


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I'm sorry, but I say that tree is dying to shake off that skanky ass vine... I'll bet it wouldn't mind a little suntan this spring either.
> 
> Those vines are like a thousand crossovers strangling the poor thing.
> 
> I think you guys are barely even helping it with this milktoast approach.



Thanks for the lead pdqdl.

You know I have worked on estates over the years and part of the cultivated beauty of many of them has been the tree beds with manicured English ivy running up to the branch forks. It has only recently come into vogue to have disdain for this plant. Trees have been living for centuries in this symbiosis and companies like the one below ....just trying to make a buck off of it.

http://www.blackcativy.com/id12.html


----------



## jtaylor (Jan 7, 2010)

*start at the bottom*

I would start at the bottom, since the bark is very smooth on this species, cut the main sections of vine and start pulling, working your way up. It should come off pretty easy. But it will take some time! Smile and have fun!


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 7, 2010)

I think removing that vine would have a similar effect to that of a good Lyons tailing.

Once the tree responds (probably pretty quickly) and sends up tons of sprouts, no more worrying about sunscald.

After that its just selective thinning and maintenance. 

Much better than that wretched vine strangling it.


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

I would like to see a picture of evidence of an English Ivy vine strangling (girdling) a tree. I have never seen it and as a matter of fact, MDS, I have seen Silver maples that I am fairly sure from their structure, they would have busted up withOUT the vine on it. Kinda like an exoskeleton.

I am not disagreeing in any way shape or form that this vine is a negative but in some cases it is very pretty in a circular bed below the tree and if full and fluffy up to the first limbs I will not encourage the ho to remove it as....no harm...no foul.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> I would like to see a picture of evidence of an English Ivy vine strangling (girdling) a tree. I have never seen it and as a matter of fact, MDS, I have seen Silver maples that I am fairly sure from their structure, they would have busted up withOUT the vine on it. Kinda like an exoskeleton.
> 
> I am not disagreeing in any way shape or form that this vine is a negative but in some cases it is very pretty in a circular bed below the tree and if full and fluffy up to the first limbs I will not encourage the ho to remove it as....no harm...no foul.



Here with all the humidity it becomes a problem due to remaining damp and setting stage for collar rot. I have left it alone as long as it is not too thick. I have seen trees do alright and seen them die with vines so like everything else in our occupation site analysis needs careful examination.


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> I would like to see a picture of evidence of an English Ivy vine strangling (girdling) a tree. I have never seen it and as a matter of fact, MDS, I have seen Silver maples that I am fairly sure from their structure, they would have busted up withOUT the vine on it. Kinda like an exoskeleton.
> 
> I am not disagreeing in any way shape or form that this vine is a negative but in some cases it is very pretty in a circular bed below the tree and if full and fluffy up to the first limbs I will not encourage the ho to remove it as....no harm...no foul.



I agree with you TV a little frilly vine is one thing - but NC's little treat there reminded me of that alien from the movie Predator for some reason. Lol


----------



## tree MDS (Jan 7, 2010)

Good point about the exoskeleton effect too TV. I was thinking along those lines too...but good way to put it!


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

thanks


----------



## woodchux (Jan 7, 2010)

Check out the pics in this thread and then tell me that vines dont harm trees.
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=40935


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

what kind of vine was that woodchux?


----------



## woodchux (Jan 7, 2010)

treevet said:


> what kind of vine was that woodchux?



i think it was honeysuckle...


----------



## treevet (Jan 7, 2010)

woodchux said:


> i think it was honeysuckle...



Do you guys have the mistletoe down there. That is parasitic but I am not sure of the mechanics of how it is parasitic.


----------



## woodchux (Jan 7, 2010)

We get tons of mistletoe in the oaks here... starting to see it in bradford pears alot as well now.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 8, 2010)

D Mc said:


> No. SGR's= surface girdling roots.
> 
> Dave


girdling the surface of what? 

sgr = stem-girdling root, and those burls do not seem related to sgr's. Looks like a pretty normal flare, but worth a check as always.

o and dave mistletoe parasitizes by stealing water and sap.

Vines are associates, seldom parasites by any definition.


----------



## treevet (Jan 8, 2010)

treeseer said:


> o and dave mistletoe parasitizes by stealing water and sap.
> 
> .



I could look it up but how do they do this Guy?

If you are gone for a while I will research it and report back.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 8, 2010)

treeseer said:


> girdling the surface of what?  sgr = stem-girdling root


 They weren't underground.  But yeah, oops.



treeseer said:


> and those burls do not seem related to sgr's. Looks like a pretty normal flare, but worth a check as always.


 If you look closely at the "burls" (?) you will see they are the same shape and size of the areas where the vine was NOT growing. Planetrees express themselves much more quickly than other species. So they are a good study example for this effect. 



treeseer said:


> Vines are associates, seldom parasites by any definition.



Though they may not be parasites they can cause harm. Blanket statements on vines works no better than blanket statements elsewhere in our profession. Like TreeVet, I have seen stunning examples of vine as a ground cover in beautiful estates. The effects in those situations is quite different than what an encroaching ivy environment can do if left to its own devices without management. 

I have read that ivy can live 400 years and have stems in excess of 12" in diameter. I have not seen that extreme but I have sen 6" dia ivy and the resulting consequences that type of power can generate. 

Dave


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

treevet said:


> I could look it up but how do they do this Guy?
> 
> If you are gone for a while I will research it and report back.



I've a general understanding of the modality, but needed to look it up for a technical description.



> The following are some general properties of parasitic plants.
> 
> 1. Nutrients and water are transported via a physiological bridge, called the haustorium.
> 2. A parasite connects its vascular system (at least one of the tissues) to that of the host plant.
> ...


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by treeseer View Post
> > Vines are associates, seldom parasites by any definition.
> 
> ...



I do not think they are parasitic in the definitive sense, but I have seen them become opportunistic around wounds and defects. I'm not sure if they do anything to inhibit wound closure or not.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

woodchux said:


> i think it was honeysuckle...









Looks kinda like bittersweet

http://images.google.com/images?q=bittersweet strangle


----------



## treevet (Jan 8, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Looks kinda like bittersweet
> 
> http://images.google.com/images?q=bittersweet strangle



You never see English ivy constrict like that IMO.

Very nice info on Mistletoe/parasitic conditions!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

treevet said:


> Very nice info on Mistletoe/parasitic conditions!



Thank you, thank you veri'much.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 8, 2010)

D Mc said:


> NC,good job. Did anyone else notice the trunk deformations that appear to be from constriction not dissimilar to SGR's.
> 
> Dave



I did notice when I was removing the vine, everywhere their is an open area where no vine was growing I found large round protrusions. I would say that the trunk was be constricted from the vines.


----------



## NCTREE (Jan 8, 2010)

The white stuff you see on the trunk in picture #2 and #4 is some sort of fungus growing under the larger thicker vines. All of it was isolated to the north side of the trunk where the vines were more dense.


----------



## treevet (Jan 8, 2010)

i think it is unlikely the tree was constricted vertically and those vines grow vertically.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 8, 2010)

I think it is like the vine girdling pictures, the tree puts on more wood where it can. You may see some rebound in the areas where the vine is removed, we see this in basal flairs and First Order Roots that are released.


----------



## treeseer (Jan 9, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> The white stuff you see on the trunk in picture #2 and #4 is some sort of fungus growing under the larger thicker vines. All of it was isolated to the north side of the trunk where the vines were more dense.



That fungus is only on the dead bark, not a pathogen or a sign of a problem.

Vines are associates, seldom parasites by any definition.

"Though they may not be parasites they can cause harm. Blanket statements on vines works no better than blanket statements elsewhere in our profession."

Vines are always associates; that blanket statement always works, in any profession. And yes, the growths are burls, and do not appear to be defects.

Twining vines like bittersweet and honeysuckle always constrict their tree-prop(there's another blanket statement); ivy and other creepiing vines much less.


----------



## D Mc (Jan 9, 2010)

By stating that vines are associates, non parasitic, implies they are A-Ok. 

Is that what you meant?

Certainly this is the controversy I was referring to. Many people, myself included, do not believe English Ivy to be harmless. It can indeed dominate the landscape and smaller trees to their detriment. 

It does not require constriction to deform a trunk or limb. It requires obstruction. You can see this in many forms in many instances. I can clearly see that the shape of the bulges directly correlates with where the vines were not obstructing growth.

Dave


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 9, 2010)

If they are native to the local environment then they are OK. There are natural conflicts between native species, it is not just introduced species. Poison ivy is an associate in many ecosystems, and can strangle trees.

How's this for a blanket statement: Kudzu blankets the landscape.


----------



## treevet (Jan 9, 2010)

D Mc said:


> By stating that vines are associates, non parasitic, implies they are A-Ok.
> 
> Is that what you meant?
> 
> ...



I think the term you are looking for here D Mc is "invasive".

Sycamores often have "burls" on large old stems like this and we are very familiar with the interaction with English ivy and I think it unlikely it caused any perceived misgrowth or canker if that is what you are assuming.

Again I think it has become in vogue by greenies (not referring to you) to label E. ivy a killer and wage witch hunts against it.


----------



## outofmytree (Jan 9, 2010)

Now there's a thought. :angry2:"Burn the witch, burn the witch, burn the witch!":angry2:


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 9, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Now there's a thought. :angry2:"Burn the witch, burn the witch, burn the witch!":angry2:



She turned me into a newt! 

Uh... I got better....


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 9, 2010)

treevet said:


> Again I think it has become in vogue by greenies (not referring to you) to label E. ivy a killer and wage witch hunts against it.



Depends on where you are, it is over growing trees out in the PNW. It's not bad here, but the Boston ivy, wild grape and bittersweet are sure becoming problems.


----------



## treevet (Jan 9, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Depends on where you are, it is over growing trees out in the PNW. It's not bad here, but the Boston ivy, wild grape and bittersweet are sure becoming problems.



No I am not saying E. ivy is not a problem but rather that it is not the killer of every tree it is on as described by some. It is definitely an invasive here and elsewhere that needs to be contained. We got tons of other vines here as well.


----------



## NCTREE (Jun 22, 2012)

It's been 2 years since I devine this London Plane somewhat, the customer hasn't called me back to finish it. The upper canopy has been totally devine but the lower half still has dead vines. After I spent 6 hours devining the customer told me that she missed the vines go figure. I was just by there today so I snapped a few pics. The tree is doing fine no big changes since other than no vines.

View attachment 242717
View attachment 242718
View attachment 242719


----------



## treeseer (Jun 22, 2012)

After I spent 6 hours devining the customer told me that she missed the vines go figure. 

Easy enough to figure out; next time maybe just pull back the SHADE-MAKING, HARMFUL tops of the vines so they hang down all pendulous like. :msp_biggrin:


----------



## treemandan (Jun 23, 2012)

NCTREE said:


> It's been 2 years since I devine this London Plane somewhat, the customer hasn't called me back to finish it. The upper canopy has been totally devine but the lower half still has dead vines. After I spent 6 hours devining the customer told me that she missed the vines go figure. I was just by there today so I snapped a few pics. The tree is doing fine no big changes since other than no vines.
> 
> View attachment 242717
> View attachment 242718
> View attachment 242719





Moreso she missed the money she paid you and didn't expect so many worms to come out of the can. It looks cool like that.


----------



## treeclimber101 (Jun 24, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Moreso she missed the money she paid you and didn't expect so many worms to come out of the can. It looks cool like that.



If by cool you mean awful then yea it looks real cool


----------

