# Need schooled in the right way to drop trees for logs



## Rio_Grande (Oct 14, 2012)

I was given all the poplar logs I could cut and a few red oaks. We decided to cut whatever is sellable into logs for that purpose, the rest into fire wood. The poplar isint worth much for logs or fire wood, but we aren't working at the moment and can use whatever we can get. The oaks will be nice money wise and again we can use that. I talked to a timber buyer recently and he is interested in all of the straight stuff down to 12 inch. What I need to learn is how to drop them RIGHT I have dropped and cut fire wood for years with few issues but on occasion I split one, or put it where I didn't want it. 

I don't know what it is called but I have always notched coming up and then strait leaving a wedge. Then make the back cut at the same height as the top of the notch. Using wedges as necessary to make it go reasonably where I want it. Is this the right way? I know certain trees require certain methods but that is the one I know. 

I have the skidding equipment for the size trees I am messing with, trailers to move up to 24 foot logs. Just need to learn a bit more so I don't tear up the groceries.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 14, 2012)

D. Douglas Dent, Professional timber falling or spend a few weeks on the falling pics thread, otherwise find someone to show you in person up close, lots of ways to dump a tree some good lots of bad ones. Learn the humboldt cut its faster and a little safer plus it puts wood on the ground quick, as far as breaking logs on the way down try to miss stumps boulders yer truck, the trick is too put them on the ground as gently as possible while missing all the obstacles... learn the lengths the mill WANTS not what is easy to cut and yard, and buy a log tape, nothing like the new guy that walks off what he thinks is a 32' log with 1' of snipe only to find out its really a 28' with 3" of snipe and the mill won't take anything under 30'


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 14, 2012)

I agree, he told me I could cut them 8,10,12 and leave 5 inches for trimming. Real nice guy. .25 to.42 a board foot depending on quality. That sounds great with little to no income at the moment. How do they figure the board foot of a log? I know they measure the smaller end and use a taper value. Beyond that I am clueless.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 14, 2012)

Taper value? The mills round here measure a square section down the middle, taper is how they make money, by cutting that taper into extra boards they don't pay us for. There is some difference between coasts as to scaling logs, some use the doyle scale some use scribner, some use "international" the differences are subtle (and I don't understand them). Your best bet is to find out what scale the mills near you use and get yourself a scale book. Or you could do the math on every log... give me a minute and I'll try to remember it...


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## northmanlogging (Oct 14, 2012)

first Measure the diameter of the small side of a log, lets say its 12"
Then measure the length minus snipe or waste (extra that the mill uses to cut out defects) in inches so lets go with a 10 footer at 120 inches

Now take the Radius devide by 2 (equals 6")
Square that 6x6=36 reapeat 6x6=36 ad the two together 36+36=72
a squared + b squared = c squared (remember trigonometry...thought you'd never need it huh)
find the square root for our purpose its 8.485" This is the length of one side of a square chunk down the middle or your log
multiply the length of the log in inches by the length of one side and again by the length of one side (120x8.485x8.485=8639.427 now devide that by 144, (8639.427/144=59.99) 
the 144 is how you find your board feet one board foot is a 1'x1'x1" plank(1 foot x 1 foot x 1 inch)
All told at the end of the day your 10 footer is a measly 60 mbf log and yer going to need about 17 of em to make a 1000' bf and if the mill is paying say $300 per 1000 bf that log is worth...$18.00 ain't logging grand...:msp_biggrin:

Disclaimer: this math was self taught so if'n I'm wrong... well oops... so far I haven't been two far off at the mill, the Scalers have crooked tape measures anyway so every log looks like its 1" smaller to them... and full of rot and knots so I never get paid what I should (but thats logging)


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## madhatte (Oct 14, 2012)

Way I always figure the volumes on small trees is like so. Since the area of a circle is pi*r^2, and a board-foot is 12"*12" = 144in^2

Divide 144"^2/pi to get r^2, then find the square root of that. It'll be about 13.6" per board-foot. Mental math then tells me that every inch in length at 14" diameter is about a board-foot. Remember that square, though. Volume increases non-linearly with the square of the radius. Don't forget to account for that. 

Anyway, this is the way I quickly estimate volumes on trees up to about 20" diameter and down to about 6" in diameter. Scribner/Doyle/International are for scalers. I'm mostly concerned with an eyeball estimate of the real cylinder, not the usable one.


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## DavdH (Oct 14, 2012)

The rules scaling can change at any particular location, the rules are laid out in the contract. 16" diameter log is 10bf per lineal ft in Scribner decimal C. Of course on the left coast here we have east side and west side depending on which side of the coast range you are on, then if they go to a port for export then we have cubic metric, or J, and ifn' the goberment sold them they are cubic ft. oh yea the taper is different for cedar. The good news is if we make a dollar we will change the rules to take care of that. This only applies to the left coast, everyone makes their own rules by area. Even the goberment has different rules by region.


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. We will see this week. If I can make a few hundred a day after expenses I will be thrilled. We have a brush cutting business and it was rolling along til oct, then nothing. 

How much bend is alowed in a log? And is there any Benifit in cutting longer if it isint required?


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## Slamm (Oct 14, 2012)

Nevermind.

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Oct 14, 2012)

So back to your original question... If your stumps have an angle cut from the notch side (read face side) that would shed water and your back cut meets it reasonably level and flush then your cuttin with a Humboldt, Yer butt log should be nice and square with no angles...(best laid plans of mice right).

As far as laying the timber down remember that you have to skid them out somehow... and that is where you make or lose money, as a faller its important to remember where your skid roads and what not are going to lay, and lastly most private use trailers (read car trailers) are not rated for the kind of loads that moving logs in any abundance is going to call for, you might be better of getting a big pile and calling in a self loader.


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## Slamm (Oct 14, 2012)

In Indiana, you can have an angle or face cut on the butt end, nobody cares, it gets cut off in the slab wood. Just don't make some massive face.

Beter to face from the top down, and short stump it, then to humboldt it with a high stump.


If you don't know how to mark logs then ask the log buyer to come out and make the logs for you, or you will have a screwed up mess and waste a lot of money and wood. You won't know grade from blocking.

This is just a thought, but you might want to look around and find a veteran cutter that could cut the trees and "help" you out a little for a fee.

If you have any of those Indiana veneer white oaks, you might want to get that sorted out before final transactions are completed.

Over all this smells of a clusterscrew, but if you don't take the shot, you will never know if you hit or miss it.

Sam


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 15, 2012)

I am not disagreeing with you slamm, I wouldn't call this a pro operation by any means. The trees were given to me by the owner to get rid of them. The poplar doesn't make much in the line of firewood and wouldn't be worth cutting for that. Just trying to pay the bills and keep the kids from being hungry or cold. It probably is a cluster that is why I am trying to learn something. Thanks for the input. 

I too think I have been using something close to the humbolt. 
They were going to log it but nobody wants the poplar and there is only a few oaks. I am just getting what nobody else wants.


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 15, 2012)

On the trailers I agree, mine are 14k equipment trailers x2 and 1 21k 6 wheeled combine hauler. I can't haul big loas but the buyer is close to my home I have a guy who helps me and can operate a truck and trailer, so 2 loads a day probably = 1 of the self loaders I see around here. Buyer told me to stop by and he would show me how he wants the logs. Everyone is being real helpfull. I would love to pay someone to put the trees down and cut the logs out, but I haven't found anyone as of yet to do that for me. That would be perfect to be honest.


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## slowp (Oct 15, 2012)

Here is a link to the old Forest Service log scaling handbook. 

I don't see one for an area with hardwoods though.

It might be good to look at. And it is free.

FSH - 2409.11 Code Field Issuances


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## slowp (Oct 15, 2012)

This is a most excellent book on log scaling. I have an ancient hard copy that we were required to get for school. It is the Idaho Log Scaling Manual. I am glad to see it is now on line.

http://www.ibsp.idaho.gov/IdahoLogScalingManual-2008 Edition (print).pdf


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## slowp (Oct 15, 2012)

This'll be the last one. It may be the most relevent too. I found this by googling Timber Volume Tables.
You can use volume tables to come up with a rough timber cruise. This one is for the South but may work as you can compute your own form class. Looks like it is from Kentucky. 

To determine a proper form class, you'll either have to dump a few trees or climb a few trees. I think we did 10. This will explain what form class is, also. 
So long ago....

Tables for Estimating Board-Foot Volume of Timber

Good night!


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks, I was reading one from Tennessee, will give these a look see too.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 15, 2012)

careful with this whole logging thing its more addictive than heroin...

Since you will be needing to move logs try to handle them as little as possible, skid them once if you can, or cold deck em (rough piles in the woods) and then reset so you can take many logs at once, of course you will be limited by what you're pulling them with... The more time you spend dinking around with moving them the less money you're going to make, fuel is expensive, back braking labor (as in moving them by hand peavy etc.) will put you down for days/weeks

Cut yer limbs flush, they should look like telephone poles before they go to the mill.

And as far as Humboldt vs standard(angle on the log) face cuts, this fight will probably be going when all you's peeps grand children are complaining about solar powered chain saws lack of power


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## Gologit (Oct 15, 2012)

The very _first_ thing you need to do is to determine what your market is for the logs. Find out who's paying what and exactly what they want for species, size and length.

Find out what the mill wants and cut your timber accordingly. A deck of logs isn't good for anything except firewood if there isn't a mill to sell it to.


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## madhatte (Oct 15, 2012)

Gologit said:


> The very _first_ thing you need to do is to determine what your market is for the logs.



Best advice ever. I spent a lot of energy learning that lesson a couple of years ago. Glad I did, because it was a valuable experience, but I shoulda just listened to those wiser than myself in the first place.


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 15, 2012)

I spoke with my buyer last week and got an idea what he wants I am meeting with him this week to look at what he wants since in my own statement I want first hand look at it.

I have an 80 hp tracked skid steer to load with and a 60 hp tractor for skidding. The largest of these trees is only around 24 in across.. While not light I will just have to buck them to a length I can handle. I have side ramps for 2 of the trailers where I can pull or push a log up the ramp onto the trailer. The track skid steer has a tipping capacity of 6k I have moved 4500 lb loads with it onto those trailers, but we will just have to see. I agree I could loose a lot of money skidding.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 22, 2012)

slowp said:


> This is a most excellent book on log scaling. I have an ancient hard copy that we were required to get for school. It is the Idaho Log Scaling Manual. I am glad to see it is now on line.
> 
> http://www.ibsp.idaho.gov/IdahoLogScalingManual-2008 Edition (print).pdf



Patty this is the best scribner info I've seen, thanks for posting it! Best in detail and clarity. I learned using Bell and Dillworth and the Grays Harbor Bureau Rules (same as most in the Northwest.) Both don't have as nice of illustrations as the IDL one you posted, even though the rules are the same, and there appears to be a little more detail taboot. Very cool!

Wes


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## slowp (Oct 22, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Patty this is the best scribner info I've seen, thanks for posting it! Best in detail and clarity. I learned using Bell and Dillworth and the Grays Harbor Bureau Rules (same as most in the Northwest.) Both don't have as nice of illustrations as the IDL one you posted, even though the rules are the same, and there appears to be a little more detail taboot. Very cool!
> 
> Wes



Our forestry instructor at the discount college I went to said to hang onto their book. He said it was the best one for scaling. I've still got mine. It went out of print for a while. Now it seems to be back, in electronic form. Thank you Idaho!


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## madhatte (Oct 22, 2012)

Bell & Dilworth is my go-to. This Idaho book is pretty good, too. Thanks for that. I'll pass it around, see how many B&D-loyal I can shake up. The Kim Iles inventory book id pretty excellent, too.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 22, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Bell & Dilworth is my go-to. This Idaho book is pretty good, too. Thanks for that. I'll pass it around, see how many B&D-loyal I can shake up.  The Kim Iles inventory book id pretty excellent, too.



While not scaling but my Forest Sampling methods class starts tomarrow. B & D is one of the books recommended. Already have it but also the F.S. Elementary Forest Sampling handbook and the tried and true McGraw Hill's, Forest Mensuration, another one I have. The Elementary Forest Sampling handbook is out of print but being made available in PDF. It's sad no one makes a comprehensive series any more.


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## madhatte (Oct 22, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> While not scaling but my Forest Sampling methods class starts tomarrow.



Are you at GRCC? If so, COME WORK FOR US next summer. 

See if you can find Iles' book. It's fantastic. 

EDIT: This one.


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## Slamm (Oct 23, 2012)

Rio_Grande said:


> I spoke with my buyer last week and got an idea what he wants I am meeting with him this week to look at what he wants since in my own statement I want first hand look at it.
> 
> I have an 80 hp tracked skid steer to load with and a 60 hp tractor for skidding. The largest of these trees is only around 24 in across.. While not light I will just have to buck them to a length I can handle. I have side ramps for 2 of the trailers where I can pull or push a log up the ramp onto the trailer. The track skid steer has a tipping capacity of 6k I have moved 4500 lb loads with it onto those trailers, but we will just have to see. I agree I could loose a lot of money skidding.



I load log trucks with an 81 hp Mustang MTL20 which is the same as a Takeuchi 140. You will be able to lift butt logs that are 16' long with DBH of 24", so you will be just fine in that department, shouldn't be any loading logs.

If you have a field or room to land the logs, just pull the limbed logs out and leave about 2 feet or tractor width apart and when you fill your landing have the log buyer come Paint-mark the logs where he wants them cut, buck them and deliver. That said, marking logs to his choosen lengths will not be a problem just work the lengths to fit the bends in the tree. I'm just worried about the grade logs or heaven forbid the veneer logs and you screw one of those up. My timber buyer always says his money is made in the marking of the logs when it comes to grade and veneer.

Depending on the length of the trees and the terrain that 60 hp tractor might need some of the butt logs cut off before skidding out the tree. Get a 50' (not a 100') log tape, Bailey's or Madsen's has them for cheap enough. Clip this to the cutters belt and soon you will know what trees will need to be cut in two and which ones the tractor can skid out in full length. Rig something on the Three Point hitch so you can chain the log and lift it up with the three point so you aren't dragging the whole tree.

Do you have metal stakes on your trailers? Don't trust the logs to just sit there while someone straps them up. That will end in someone's death. Make some decent metal stakes, it won't take very long and it will save a lot of loading time and safety issues, more than the time and expense to make them.

As far as scaling the logs you can just get a scale stick in Doyle from Log Rite or use a tape measure on the small end and record them to input the computer later, there are some conversion charts or programs on line that will give you the footage for each diameter and length.

Below is a running thread of mine that has a lot of photos and videos of midwest logging in it. It might give you a some visuals, if you have questions just ask.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/147985.htm

Hope it helps,

Sam


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 23, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Are you at GRCC? If so, COME WORK FOR US next summer.
> 
> See if you can find Iles' book. It's fantastic.
> 
> EDIT: This one.



Nope over at the U of I. I went through Grays Harbor College's program. I didn't have to do Mensuration here in Idaho, but went to one of their labs and it was a joke. Definitely glad I went to tech school so I actually have a clue of what to do in the field. I'll have to check it out. There were a few others and in class today they said there's one they'd like us to have but its $250 and don't expect us to pay that much lol


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## madhatte (Oct 23, 2012)

UI... I know a couple of your classmates.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 23, 2012)

madhatte said:


> UI... I know a couple of your classmates.
> 
> Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express



Tess?

Are you coming over for the National Convention this week?


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## madhatte (Oct 23, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Tess?
> 
> Are you coming over for the National Convention this week?




Yep -- she worked with us in '09. Pretty sure at least 2 other past members of our crew are there now as well. Wait; one may be in Missoula. Not sure. 

I won't be making this convention because of prior obligations. Ah, well, there's always next year.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 23, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Yep -- she worked with us in '09. Pretty sure at least 2 other past members of our crew are there now as well. Wait; one may be in Missoula. Not sure.
> 
> I won't be making this convention because of prior obligations. Ah, well, there's always next year.



Ah ten4. there are lots of Westside folks over here. Too bad, have to have a beer some time when I'm home. I'm not too far from Oly lol


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## madhatte (Oct 23, 2012)

Hit me up. Beers are always welcome.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 23, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Hit me up. Beers are always welcome.



Will do hatte. Prob be over christmas break. I'm gonna be pretty busy during thanksgiving. Hey gonna shoot ya a pm, have a question for you.


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks Sam I have a CTL 70 which is the same as a MTL 20 same parts manual and all. Love that machine.


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## Slamm (Oct 23, 2012)

Rio_Grande said:


> Thanks Sam I have a CTL 70 which is the same as a MTL 20 same parts manual and all. Love that machine.



Yep, they are tough. The only thing that has failed me, was I broke one of the drive motor hydro lines. My son was running it and for some reason one of the hydro hoses just blew a hole. It took about 1.5 hours to take it off, drive to get a new one and oil and re-install a new, because you only have to take one little cover off.

I got 2700 hours on the original tracks and undercarriage, but they were completely shot when I replaced them all, LOL.

I've picked up 20 foot long 18" diameter logs and loaded them onto log trailers. If you can get them up against the log bunks/verticals you can help them up by pushing them with the tracks.

Bear in mind that loading logs with a skid loader is very dangerous work, much more so than with a wheel loader, because the operator is under the logs.

I started out with 4' long pallet forks, but have found that 5' long ones are much better for picking up the top cuts and you can "throw" the logs higher and farther when piling them up with 5' forks.


Sam


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 25, 2012)

Mine had 1200 hours on it when I bought it and new tracks. I was missing a little plate in the back that protects a water drain. Well a stick took the drain out. I also ripped the remotes off of it when I tried to tilt a mower with short lines on it to far. That was a couple hundred dollar repair. But in all I cant complain. I have a graple that will handle a 36 inch log, bigger and I have to use pallet forks. I used it for last couple years to load scrap Iron I am amazed what this thing will do.

It runs a mower most of the time now although there isint much business at the moment. 

Thanks for the info. The log buyer said he would come out and mark the logs before we cut them. but i have to get them on the ground and pulled out. I am trying to come up with a way to skid with the CTL, the tractor isint really set up for the woods although we use it to gather fire wood this one has alot of staubs and brush. I ran the brush cutter through there the other day. we will see.


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## Slamm (Oct 25, 2012)

On skidding with the CTL ............... I have done this at my house...... not while actually making money, so take it for what its worth. I skid a bunch of firewood logs out of my hills and the neighbor's hills, by spiking the butt end of the log with either the left or right inner "tong" of the grapple bucket, then I would sit backwards on the step plate between the arms of the machine and lower the lap bar (not smart, I know) and I got to where I could skid with the MTL20 in 2nd gear going backwards just as fast as you can drive going forwards, and it worked pretty good in wet ground, because of the low 3.7 ground PSI. You have to check your grab on the log every now and then, but it will pivot just fine with that one tooth stab using either of the inner tongs.

Nothing will beat a grapple skidder though, that is a machine designed for the job. Logging has wrecked a lot of people, you might find one to rent or have a guy come and pay him to skid for you. It does take some talent and skill to get trees out and do it skillfully, but you wouldn't know what you are getting until after the job is halfway done.

Do you have a tree count, a guestimate of the amount of trees you have to cut? 60, 100, 200 or acres of them?

For the buyer to come in and mark the logs just drop them in a nice straight line with some walking distance between them so he can see both sides of it. Fill up your landing and let him know 6-12 hours before its going to be filled up so he can come out and mark the logs with you. Help him mark the logs, that will be the most you will learn about trees and timber right there. It will take several of these lessons, but after awhile you will start to see the logs in the trees before you cut them down, and then you won't have to drag dumb waste wood out, just to cut it off and push it to the side at the landing. Make your log "right" in the woods when you are limbing and topping the tree.

If you have grade or veneer trees, maybe he will show you what to look for in the bark and grain of the logs and the small and big ends. Its not hard, my kids can read logs, but if you have never done it, well then you have never done it and you won't know.

Sam


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## Rio_Grande (Oct 26, 2012)

Sam 
Thanks for the replies.

I haven't ever graded logs. I have a lot to learn.

There are 4 acres of trees, not all of them go but it will be crowded getting them out. We are starting on Monday and he added several 24+ inch oaks. I have a line on a cutter who is out of work. He supposedly can grade and drop trees. I am thinking about talking to him and seeing if he seems competent. Like I would know. I am not as worried about putting them on the ground as I am getting them graded and cut to the proper length. Loading will be a challenge but I think it too will go fine. If he can come in ground them and buck them in a couple days it will be worth it to me then I can concentrate on hauling.


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## Slamm (Oct 26, 2012)

Rio_Grande said:


> Sam
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I haven't ever graded logs. I have a lot to learn.
> ...



There isn't any reason to worry about grading or cutting to proper length, because the log buyer is going to grade and mark them for you. Just be there and learn from him when he does it.

Ask him what is the smallest diameter he will take, if its tie logs then it will be 10"-12", so if you have a straight 8'6" and the small end is 10"-12" then top it there. Cut all limbs and knots off. to that point. Some guys will take forks and some won't just depends on the mill, generally you don't want to send logs in with portions of the forks in them.

In general, for this midwest area with decent timber on it, you can figure about 3,000 bdft (very variable number) per acre. I'm guessing that you aren't going to be at that average but you might. So tops you have 12,000 bdft there, that is a long day or two days of work to turn trees into a pile of cut logs with normal logging machines and a decent cutter.

Most cut and skid contract loggers will do that for about $90-130/MBF usually around $100. So there is only about $1,200 worth of work there

Sam


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## Dave Boyt (Nov 9, 2012)

For cutting hardwoods, I use the directional felling technique, pretty much like this video. I'm sure it will draw comments from the western loggers, but the sawmills around here expect the notch, and it comes off with the slab cut anyway. One advantage is that it allows you to cut nearly even with the ground.
Felling a dead white oak tree - YouTube

If you are selling the logs, I believe that you'd be selling on the Doyle scale. That's what loggers here in Missouri use, and is the most common for the eastern hardwoods. It penalizes for smaller logs. If you are wanting to predict the amount of wood in a log, use the International 1/4" scale. Add 15% if cutting on a band mill, since the thin kerf will give you about that much more lumber. Here's a pretty concise description of log scales: Log scales

Here's a link to log scales for standing timber: Log scale for standing timber


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