# Can you use the crane hook as your t.i.p.and rigging point?



## GIZROID (Dec 15, 2007)

My partner took me to look at a job that we are doing next week. It is a 36" dbh Tulip Poplar with significant lightning damage from 2 yrs. ago. There is a strip of bark missing that is 2ft. wide and 20ft. tall. There is rot visible from the ground. The five large leaders that grow off the main stem appear very healthy from the ground. My fear is that when one of these large leaders is removed with the crane that the top will be out of balance and one of the others may fail. I am trying to avoid being tied into the tree. There are no other trees to place my t.i.p. We are going to have to park the crane in the neighbors yard and there is no room for a bucket truck or a second crane.
There is a 12" horizontal crack in the area where the bark is missing 24" below where these leaders branch out. There is no central stem in this tree above this point. Please help with any suggestions.


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## BostonBull (Dec 15, 2007)

That is a VERY dangerous and avoidable set up. Staying tied into the hook/boom while making a pick is not advisable nor is it acceptable by ANSI in 99% of situations. 

You cant get a lift, bucket, or second crane to the tree?


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## lync (Dec 15, 2007)

If your tying into the load line it should not be into the hook itself, but to an attachment point above the ball that cannot slip off(as in the case of the hook). I would consider tying into the boom of the crane in this case. There is usually a place at the tip of the boom, where the jib gets pinned on, that you could set up a shakle with a pulley for your life line tip. Plan to cut smaller pieces. Make a nice snapcut that the crane operator can definitly break off and drop to the ground before he fully takes the piece. Ride the boom back up and piece it out evenly.

Corey


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## GIZROID (Dec 15, 2007)

There is just enough room for the crane in the neighbors back yard. The yard where the tree is located has a small gate and is so heavily landscaped that it is difficult to walk through. I knew that this was a bad idea. My partner spoke with another climber here in town that said he uses this technique on occasion.


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## lync (Dec 15, 2007)

Just remember you don't have to do the job. Pass on this one and you live to climb another day.

Corey


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 15, 2007)

Use a carabiner and false crotch for secure tie-in to the cable above the ball.

ANSI Z 133 allows this, but specifically forbids using the actual hook for TIP. This is because there is no way to secure your rope from rolling off.

If it is the only safe way to take the tree apart, you can tie in and remove wood, but you need to factor your weight into the load before the pick, with all equipment. If you are on a big crane with the boom short this is not a big deal, but full extention, gibbed out can really effect the loading.


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## beowulf343 (Dec 15, 2007)

It's been done. Tie in above the ball. Sling the chunk. Snap cut. Rapell down and unhook. The crane makes the pick. Footlock back up, repeat.


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## woodchux (Dec 15, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> It's been done. Tie in above the ball. Sling the chunk. Snap cut. Rapell down and unhook. The crane makes the pick. Footlock back up, repeat.



It's my understanding that you can ride the crane back up..as long as you are tied in above the hook.


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## woodchux (Dec 15, 2007)

I recommend using a clevis shackle above the ball with a frictionsaver through the shackle for your lifeline.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 15, 2007)

Maybe I see it wrong but I don't understand why you
don't just piece it out small from the crane. Instead of taking
out huge pieces just use the crane to position for cuts and cut
and chunk down! The rigging time and pucker factor will be less
as will ground work crane time a little more but safety is number1


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## GIZROID (Dec 15, 2007)

Thanks for all of the great input and advice. I feel much better about this job. I am also concerned about releasing the tension in the main stem from the lightning damage. I plan to tie in to the crane as illustrated in the posts, chain or strap the stem and use a climb line tied in a running bowline around the stem as a safety for positioning . Is this prudent?


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## BostonBull (Dec 15, 2007)

There is more than one way.......

I tie into a Masterlink, which is attached DIRECTLY to the hook. I put the ML on first, then my sling(s), then close the gate of the hook and put a clevis pin through the hooks gate. We use shackles on our slings, so there is NO opening the gate on the hook, and have never had even a close call with this set-up. And yes it is ANSI and OSHA approved method for tie in!


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## GIZROID (Dec 15, 2007)

There is no way to chunk anything down due to a fence on two sides and ornamentals and damage to the neighbors property.


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## BostonBull (Dec 15, 2007)

Any other tall trees around? If so you could tie a line between the two, then tie into the line with your climbing line. Then you could use the crane as normal.........just a thought.


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## GIZROID (Dec 15, 2007)

No. All of the other trees are too short.


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## booboo (Dec 15, 2007)

If you can, get some photos of the job and post them. Sounds like an interesting tree.

opcorn:


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## Unknown Cutter (Dec 16, 2007)

one idea i've had before was to use sections of 2" steel pipe for a tie in point.
dig a deep hole next to the tree. set up the pipe like a flagpole. tie in to the pipe, use the crane for the tree parts. i think it would work good.


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## jomoco (Dec 16, 2007)

I've got to admit, this thread provided me an excellent little Sunday morning chuckle!

Of the thousands of tree removals done with cranes that I've been in charge of as the climber, 99% of them were either single picks or stable enough for me to safely tie off into and remain in the tree as the pick was made.

But on dozens of occassions and for varying reasons I found myself completely untrusting of the stability of the tree to be removed, and rather than looking to ANSI, OSHA, ISA or any other regulatory agency for advice on methods or techniques to keep me safe and alive in these situations, I chose a combination of good old fashioned common sense along with close and in depth planning with the crane operator himself on the technique best suited to safely remove the tree in question.

The unstable or questionable target tree is an unknown, the crane, it's reach and capacities, as well as it's operator's abilities, are known. The smart foreman/climber will always choose to tie off to, and remain with the known/crane in these scenarios.

I've already had my go round here with accepted TIP's on the crane, and will stubbornly repeat that because because a crane's hook is the only load bearing point that also has 360 degree swivel, as long as that hook has a lockable gate and precautions are made to separate the load rigging from from your lifeline/bodyline, say by using two heavy duty locked clevis' on the hook for each, the load and you, then the hook with a locked gate is the smart place to risk your life from. My being here to post this after 34 years in this business would seem to confirm my opinion's validity on this point.

ANSI's boneheaded directions of tying off above the craneball will have you spinning around the load on the hook (which has a swivel) as the crane ball and line spin under load (as they always do) in situations where you have chosen to stay with the load being picked as the only known safe TIP.

Having enough common sense to take moderate picks that are well under the crane's known capacity at any given reach while you are attached to it is a no brainer for anyone experienced in crane removals. Common sense also dictates that any unnecessary shaking or dynamic unbalancing of the tree be avoided at all costs, a little off one side a little off the other, very gently.

In situations like this where I'm taking crane picks and staying with the load being picked, I like to adjust either my rigging choker or the length of my body line (which is always coiled compactly and attached to my saddle on either side) so that as the release cut is made, I am firmly positioned on the piece being picked, kind of like the dumb guy that crawls out on a branch and cuts the branch behind him, but rather than falling with the branch to the ground, he floats away as one with the branch, both safely supported and lowered by the crane.

These unstable tree removal situations, while rare, if they are not recognised as hazards and removal techniques properly planned between crane operator and climber, can often result in unnecessary death or injury for the climber, as well as property damage.

Again, this is simply the humble opinions of an old very experienced climber, that's still very much alive, and loves to put em safely on the ground.

Work safe, and know your crane operator's experience level, you're putting your life in his hands!

jomoco


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## woodchux (Dec 16, 2007)

Jomoco ... it sounds like you are saying that you should not tie in above the hook because you will spin around the load line. Will the spinning stop if you are tied to the hook?


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## jomoco (Dec 16, 2007)

woodchux said:


> Jomoco ... it sounds like you are saying that you should not tie in above the hook because you will spin around the load line. Will the spinning stop if you are tied to the hook?




Hey there Wood chux,

I have strenuously argued this point with not only many members here at AS, but also the very experts sitting on the ANSI committee responsible for it's current guide lines.

On the phone with these experts, each of them concede the logic of my technique over their written guide lines, it seems that a few of them have seen or experienced first hand the direct results tying in above the ball when the crane line comes under load, spun tangled climbing lines in relation to nice straight rigging load lines attached on the hook.

It all boils down to the committee members being afraid that the average joe climber doesn't possess enough experience to ensure that the crane hook has a locking gate, number 1, or that he has the sense to use heavy duty locked clevis' on the hook to ensure separation (damage or severing) between rigging load line from the vulnerable body line attachment.

Below is the actual letter I sent to each ANSI committee member that deals with crane use guide lines in the tree industry, with the names redacted.


My fellow tree industry associates,

The ambiguity of the current ANSI Z133 standards for crane use in the tree industry are in my opinion unnecessarily confusing and frustrating to a large degree.

Current OSHA standards for cranes that lift personnel in man baskets located in the rigging section of 5004 clearly state that all crane hooks shall have a positive locking device on the hook gate to prevent accidents.

This is a clearly stated easy to understand Osha regulation that warrants emulation in the ANSI Z133 section for safe crane use in the tree industry.

The current Z standards fuzzy language about tying in above the ball with a shackle for the climbing line and a lanyard in the hook is in effect impractical, frustrating and to some degree hazardous.

Crane hook and block assemblies incorporate a swivel mechanism for a very good reason, to keep their loads from spinning when the twisted wire rope cable comes under any degree of load as they always do. The swivel mechanisn prevents this spinning action from transferring to the hook and load being lifted to a large degree.

If a climber is tied in above the ball and snugs up the rigging he sets on the pick, the ball and cable will spin, this results in his climbing line tangling at that point, he loses time and experiences frustration untangling his primary support line.

By adopting the current OSHA standard for man basket attachment that requires a positive locking hook gate, and applying it to the ANSI Z standard with the simple proviso that a locking shackle or closed solid loop ( both of which are currently available on the market ) be used on the locked hook to seperate his primary support line from any possible damage by the rigging hardware on the hook.

Adopting this method and putting it in clear ( shall ) language in the Z standards will enhance safety, facilitate easy understanding and lessen frustration for the professionals in our industry that go out of their way to play by the rules.

It is further my opinion that any crane being used in tree operations, whether hoisting personnel or not shall have a locking hook gate to prevent rigging hardware from inadvertently coming off the hook and injuring personnel below, be it climber or groundmen.

Your thoughts and feedback on adopting these safety measures would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,

XXX XXXXXXX
33 year tree industry veteran


Think about it for a bit, I'm very interested in the opinions of my fellow arborists on this apparently highly debatable issue.

jomoco


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## coydog (Dec 16, 2007)

I think that is a well thought out letter and hopefully will allow the standards to continue to evolve with tree care professionals who actually care to be compliant. The fact that the 2006 z-133 even address tying in to the crane is a huge step in the right direction, IMO, even if the language is incomplete. The instances in which a climber will remain tied into the load are so rare as to create a case by case safety plan that may not be able to be outlined in a few paragraphs of language. The one thing I have learned however, is that when straying off the path of established safety protocol, it is important to create a safety plan in writing in advance of the job, in which the reasoning for your decisions are outlined. For example, stating the OSHA regs requiring a positive locking device on the hook for a man basket which = personnell suspension, the rotation factor, separation of lifelines and rigging, etc. should all be put into writing before the job occurs, that way if something did happen, or even if OSHA or L&I show up to shut you down, you have documentation that sound judgement and interpretation of all available resources were used.


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## diltree (Dec 19, 2007)

woodchux said:


> I recommend using a clevis shackle above the ball with a frictionsaver through the shackle for your lifeline.




This is the proper way to do it, dont listen to Jomoco: he is wrong on this issue.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 19, 2007)

diltree said:


> This is the proper way to do it, dont listen to Jomoco: he is wrong on this issue.




LOL.....I dunno Tim maybe he is on to something here. I guess I am still confused as to WHY he is so adament about being tied into the hook.

On another note, why not tie into a shackle above the ball with a srt rig and a mechanical decending device. It would certainly eliminate the twisting-tangling problem jomoco describes.


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## JEff B (Dec 19, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> On another note, why not tie into a shackle above the ball with a srt rig and a mechanical decending device. It would certainly eliminate the twisting-tangling problem jomoco describes.



interresting point, as long as you are going to ride the piece out, other wise, if staying in the tree, you will not be able to retrieve your climbing line (unless you bring another with you) but in that case the crane operator would have to deal with your SRT climbing line hanging down from the pick.


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## diltree (Dec 19, 2007)

A locking clevis shackle that sits on the ball its self, and a cambium saver hanging from the shackle also eliminates the movement; and Ironically enough your tie in point ends up right next to the hook!

and a shout out to Jeff B as well.......


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## juststumps (Dec 19, 2007)

i'm not positive, but i think when the regs state tying in above the hook,, i think they mean tying onto the tip of the boom of the crane... not tying onto the running line...i used to do a lot of work out of boom mounted baskets,,,and the tie in point for your harness was the tip of the boom ,, not the basket,,in case the basket failed... i would think the same would go for the load line.....


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 21, 2007)

JEff B said:


> interresting point, as long as you are going to ride the piece out, other wise, if staying in the tree, you will not be able to retrieve your climbing line (unless you bring another with you) but in that case the crane operator would have to deal with your SRT climbing line hanging down from the pick.




Thanks for the clarification Jeff. I was referring to a case when you would be riding the piece out.

When are you going to be done with school? Are you a doctor yet?


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## diltree (Dec 21, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> Thanks for the clarification Jeff. I was referring to a case when you would be riding the piece out.
> 
> When are you going to be done with school? Are you a doctor yet?



haha LMFAO...calling Dr. Baril


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## tippit (Dec 21, 2007)

Jomoco, you are correct. I wonder if a crane manufacturer or Johnson Gunnebo which supplies the majority of the Pills and Blocks to the crane industry have ever seen this concept of tying in above the pill. The hook is designed to be the lifting point. It is trusted to carry thousands of pounds overhead. Why the need to add two more weak links and tie them where the engineers never conceived a load would be tied? Your right about the spinning of the wire rope when the load is set down but most units use a non spin cable these days and will eliminate that problem of the climbing line fouling the pill. I don't mind anyone tying above or below the pill, its a preference not a law. I don't understand why some on here want so badly to make it law though?


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## GIZROID (Dec 21, 2007)

We took the tree down this week without any problems. Our other climber felt comfortable being tied into the tree. The crane set him in the tree and I rigged the branches. We got the tree down in less than 2 hrs. The tree ended up being solid in the center. There were 3 ant holes in the stem at 26' that were 1/4 inch diameter. All of the visible rot on the tree was superficial. The stem pick was 22' long and weighed 7,000 lbs. It's nice using a larger crane. Thanks again to everyone for all of the input and advice.


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## jomoco (Dec 21, 2007)

I want to make it clear that my method of tying into clevis' on a hook with a locked gate is not the ANSI approved method. And while I spoke with the senior members on the ANSI committee who confirmed that my method was both safe and practical in their eyes, none of them would go on record endorsing my method, or state approval of it to me in writing.

So I want to make it perfectly clear that until the ANSI committee chandes their written specifications for acceptable crane TIP's, the method I use and have posted about on this forum, is unacceptable for use in ANSI's or any other agencies eyes.

I was wrong, and Diltree was right, and until the ANSI committee rewrites their specs, that's just the way it is, unfortunately.

Work safe!

jomoco


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## tippit (Dec 21, 2007)

jomoco, what are the names of the senior members of the ansi committee that you are referring to. Because Johnson Gunnebo will state that it is completely unacceptable to place a load, even as little as 150lbs tied in above the pill to any thing that they have engineered to this date. Please forward any contact names that you might have of the senior members so I may contact them directly. National, Groves boom truck division in PA also feels it unacceptable but recommended I contact Johnson directly.


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## lync (Dec 21, 2007)

I think the focus of the tie in point is to find a meathod/location for the climbers line where there is zero chance for that line to become unanchored.
Anchoring into the hook with a pinned safety catch seems ok. and using shackles to make the sling attachment to the wood would prevent the need for opening the hook safety latch. Personally I used a oval master link (1" thick bar stock formed into an oval, thats about 5" in diameter). Pull the cotter pin from the becket on the ball, push the ring up the cable, and repin the ball with a cotter pin. Totally bulletproof ,ring will not fit over the ball, and the climbing line runs smoothly over it.

Corey


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## l2edneck (Dec 22, 2007)

DIDN'T READ THREAD.But,,,,Seen an article in this Months TCI and said.... man killed in basket picking from the crane....

thats a NO brainer,,what about if it spins and he(crane op) has to fly with the momentum to keep from flippin the crane?

rag doll climber.....

Never ever <u>stay</u> hooked to crane while makin the pick/cut....

GAWD im a hack and i know that.....


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## BostonBull (Dec 22, 2007)

Heres how we do it.
Masterlink, sling(s), clevis through the pin hook. Tie into the MasterLink.


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## jomoco (Dec 23, 2007)

tippit said:


> jomoco, what are the names of the senior members of the ansi committee that you are referring to. Because Johnson Gunnebo will state that it is completely unacceptable to place a load, even as little as 150lbs tied in above the pill to any thing that they have engineered to this date. Please forward any contact names that you might have of the senior members so I may contact them directly. National, Groves boom truck division in PA also feels it unacceptable but recommended I contact Johnson directly.




Call Peter Gerstenberger at TCIA, and he will supply you with their names and contact info.

I've been informed that its very poor form to give out names and numbers for folks in a public forum.

Good luck

jomoco


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## woodchux (Dec 23, 2007)

l2edneck said:


> Seen an article in this Months TCI and said.... man killed in basket picking from the crane....



Here is a link to the story > http://www.hometownannapolis.com/vault/cgi-bin/gazette/view/2007G/10/27-41.HTM


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## Canyonbc (Dec 23, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I would rope climb from the crane boom a few feet down from the cable pulley and rig loads out on the crane line to get started. This would mean swinging in free air as each piece is taken out and long hang times in the saddle.
> 
> There is a tendency for the climber to rotate some on their climbing rope as the piece is swung out to be lowered but the climber can stop the rotation by having a boot on each side of the lowering cable as the piece is lowered out. After the piece is unhooked from the pill the crane operator pulls up the pill so the climber can stand on top of it. Wear gloves. Once on top of the pill the crane operator places the climber and pill back into the tree for another piece. Standing on the pill keeps the climber from being 'beat up' by it plus takes a load off of the climbers butt in the saddle allowing a little moving around to keep the blood flowing.
> 
> Once you get some weight off of the tree it should be safe to hold the climbers weight. It's possible to take the whole tree out a piece at a time using this technique.




I have no experience with Crane work and tree work. But i want to know how this method (the diagram) above posted by TreeCo would be a safe effective way to do the tree. 

Good to here it got down fast and safe...and the tree was solid.

Canyon


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## Treetom (Dec 23, 2007)

As long as the crane doesn't tip over, tying into the boom sounds feasible. I'm just picturing an unbalanced limb flipping over and hitting the climbing line or sliding down the climbing line and hitting the climber (me). Personally, I have the crane operator use the hook to place me where I set the cinch, then climb to a safe position (preferably behing the tree trunk) and make my cut.


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## Canyonbc (Dec 23, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> You've got to remember that this technique is for trees that you do not trust to hold the climber. This is a good way to start off on a really weak tree until you get enough weight off of the tree to trust it to hold the climber.
> 
> 
> If the tree can be trusted to hold the climber...then it is faster and easier to have the climber in the tree.
> ...




Yes, when i wrote my response there i was going under the well i am not sure how to say it but i 100% agree. 

I wrote it under the impression that the tree was unstable to climb. 

I def. agree..crane send the climber in the tree and go from there. 

I like your idea though. 

Sorry for this response to be so scattered.


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## lync (Dec 23, 2007)

Two climbers is the way to go!! Fast and less exausting for both climbers. I.ve got a 200ft climbing line in a rope bag just for crane removals. No spurs, just hiking boots a figure 8 and a split tail. up and down, the rope is rebagged by the time I have to go back up. once I set the straps I drop the rope bag and rap to the ground. pull my line out and rebag for the next pick.

Corey


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 23, 2007)

A problem I see with the climber secured to the boom, is that I think it becomes outside the range of the computer load cell. And the crane operators I've worked with don't breath if anything messes with the computer or the tiny computer line running down the side of the boom.

I've been on a job where we wasted almost an hour because a tiny branch had become hung up in the computer wire. No computer wire, the machine is down.

And the largest crane outfit around here won't let anyone ride the hook (company policy).


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## jomoco (Dec 23, 2007)

I've been debating with and writing to the ANSI commitee for almost a year on this subject.

It seems that they are frightened that a clear common sense approach like mine would be misunderstood and result in an accident were it to be adopted and written into their specs.

They see two scary problems with my method.

1. There are many cranes that have no positive locking gates on their load hooks, this scares them silly because of the obvious danger of the lifeline bouncing off the hook.

It is my opinion that no crane should be allowed to work on any job without a lockable hook gate period. I won't work under a crane without one because I've seen the rigging come off the hook as the ball is lowered through a thick canopy on cranes without a locking gate, it's a hazard to both the climber and groundmen below.

2. The potential that a lifeline on the hook could be severed were it to become trapped under rigging hardware under load.

This is easily avoided by using two steel locking clevis' on the hook, one for the rigging, and one for your lifeline TIP. This allows both rigging and lifeline to be unaffected by the ball and crane cable spinning under load because both are on the hook below the 360 degree swivel specifically designed to minimize load spin.

The fact that very few if any climber deaths have occurred to date while tied into a crane has the ANSI commitee totally paranoid to risk changing their specs, and I am somewhat sympathetic to their point of view. In fact I myself am firmly convinced that only experienced journeymen climbers should be allowed to work trees down with a crane regardless of whether they tie onto the crane or not. The potential to get seriously hurt or killed working with a crane is very high, and as every climber knows, all it takes is one mistake or miscalculation, and its game over.

Work safe!

jomoco


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## BostonBull (Dec 24, 2007)

Jomoco.........

Are you saying you run your rope around the hook DIRECTLY? I dont thnk i have understood you this far? If so It hink running your rope around a hook is very dangerous, what about the buurs that the rigging and daily use cause on the hook? This is why we use a MasterLink attached to the hook.

And as for the positive locking gate, with you 100%, and it should be backed up by a clevis pin through the hook IMO!


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## jomoco (Dec 24, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> Jomoco.........
> 
> Are you saying you run your rope around the hook DIRECTLY? I dont thnk i have understood you this far? If so It hink running your rope around a hook is very dangerous, what about the buurs that the rigging and daily use cause on the hook? This is why we use a MasterLink attached to the hook.
> 
> And as for the positive locking gate, with you 100%, and it should be backed up by a clevis pin through the hook IMO!



No Boston, I thought I was quite clear in explaining my method of using two large locking clevis' on the hook itself, one for the rigging, the other for my body line.

I think that the ANSI commitee is very concerned about any language in their regs that would allow a body line anywhere near the hook, which of course is what my method does, provided that the hook has a locking gate, and that the rigging hardware is separated from the bodyline.

I like 3/4 inch clevis' on the hook, but a solid oval 1 inch ring is also available at most crane rigging suppliers, these are also an excellent choice to place on the hook and run your climbing line through.

jomoco


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## BostonBull (Dec 24, 2007)

jomoco said:


> No Boston, I thought I was quite clear in explaining my method of using two large locking clevis' on the hook itself, one for the rigging, the other for my body line.
> 
> I think that the ANSI commitee is very concerned about any language in their regs that would allow a body line anywhere near the hook, which of course is what my method does, provided that the hook has a locking gate, and that the rigging hardware is separated from the bodyline.
> 
> ...




Oh I see.

Quite honestly there were a bunch of posts, I wasnt keeping up with the thread, and too lazy to read EVERY one. 

I like the MasterLinks ("Oval 1 inch rings" lol) over the clevis. Even though they are "locking" they ARE openable. And why not put the rigging slings right on the hook? I can see the climb line but the slings have an exterior PROTECTIVE covering.????

Not trying to argue with you, just wondering.


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