# High drama over pollution controls



## pelhamjeff (May 20, 2009)

I'm looking forward to seeing an episode sometime after 2010 where one of the crews is getting all pissed off because their EPA approved saws won't perform in the cut, or won't start. I don't care what brand of saw, I just want to hear one of the loggers cuss about the government, throw down his saw and walk off the job.


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## pelhamjeff (May 21, 2009)

Perhaps there aren't a lot of people who post on/read the axe man forum.


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## GASoline71 (May 21, 2009)

There is... just this topic is ridiculous... There will be nothing wrong with "EPA saws"...

Gary


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## jburlingham (May 21, 2009)

I do agree with Gary, they will probably run ok, likely they will just be heavier and not last as long. 

More of why you won't see that reaction, is the loggers your watching are for the most part using older equipment, as they do this day in day out for a living and take care of their stuff. Eventually the saws they use will die beyond repair, and then you may see newer stuff, and that most likely wont be as soon as 2010.


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## WVwoodsman (May 21, 2009)

The newer EPA saws could also be equated to the newer regulations with automobiles and gas milage ratings. The old saws will be phased out, but there are lots of parts out there to keep them going for a long time should the loggers choose to keep running the old saws. The same could be said about the automobiles, lots of parts are still and will be available for years to come.


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## pelhamjeff (May 21, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> There is... just this topic is ridiculous... There will be nothing wrong with "EPA saws"...
> 
> Gary



I didn't feel like it was ridiculous. We won't know until the new saws get here, but in the mean time, I'm saying that reliability and longevity will probably be compromised. I think the new ones will be finicky when compared to yesterday's/todays saws and will be harder to tune as the government seeks to keep us from tuning them. Where's the ridiculous part of that? I'm just saying I'd like to see somebody get pissed off at a machine, because that's entertaining to me.


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## rmihalek (May 21, 2009)

How about this: a fuel-injected, supercharged four stroke saw with a 25cc engine and a supercharger the size of a pack of cigarettes? Crank up the blower and she'll put out maybe 15 hp, but weigh less than current 660s, 395s, etc.

Then Jesse can throw it to the ground when he gets pissed off at the cameramen for filming a show that he VOLUNTARILY agreed to take part in.


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## GASoline71 (May 21, 2009)

pelhamjeff said:


> I didn't feel like it was ridiculous. We won't know until the new saws get here, but in the mean time, I'm saying that reliability and longevity will probably be compromised. I think the new ones will be finicky when compared to yesterday's/todays saws and will be harder to tune as the government seeks to keep us from tuning them. Where's the ridiculous part of that? I'm just saying I'd like to see somebody get pissed off at a machine, because that's entertaining to me.



You're freaking out about something that you have no clue about. New EPA saws are not going to be hard starting, low hp, junkers...

Another paranoia thread if you ask me... 

Gary


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## pelhamjeff (May 21, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> You're freaking out about something that you have no clue about. New EPA saws are not going to be hard starting, low hp, junkers...
> 
> Another paranoia thread if you ask me...
> 
> Gary



The point I am trying to make has been made time and time again in chainsaw forum, where you seem to spend a lot of your time. If you think government regulation of chainsaw emissions is going to lead to a better breed of saw, I would say YOU don't have a clue. Freaking out? No, I have plenty of reliable saws that will probably outlast me.


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## GASoline71 (May 21, 2009)

So why bring up this pointless point (  ) in this forum???

Yeah... I have no business in the "Axe Men" forum... I should prolly stay out of the loggin' forum too...

This ain't my first rodeo mang...

Gary


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## pelhamjeff (May 21, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> So why bring up this pointless point (  ) in this forum???
> 
> Yeah... I have no business in the "Axe Men" forum... I should prolly stay out of the loggin' forum too...
> 
> ...



Remember way back yesterday when... Geez, never mind, mang.


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## GASoline71 (May 21, 2009)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 

Got all caught up in it huh? 

Gary


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## BarkBuster20 (May 21, 2009)

isnt the 441 a new model saw? i havent heard anything bad about it
edit = well lets see also there will be better AV better fuel economy and better filtration system so there will be positive affects as well.


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## pelhamjeff (May 21, 2009)

I've read good and bad things about a 441, but have never run one. But I keep reading chainsaw forum threads from Thall, others, that make me think after 2010 it's gonna be a whole new ball game, complete with an enforcement component of the EPA trying to put small engine shops out of business. Hope I'm wrong!


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## kgreer (May 21, 2009)

*EPA saws*



GASoline71 said:


> There is... just this topic is ridiculous... There will be nothing wrong with "EPA saws"...
> 
> Gary



I agree w/ you Gary. While they may use less gas and put out less emissions, that does not necessarily mean less power. They will probably do this by using a better air fuel mixture technology. This in turn will lead to less carbon/fuel/gunk build up in the combustion chamber and may even extend the life of the saw. Can't be sure though until they are in use and tested for a few years


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## oregoncutter (May 21, 2009)

*Only drama for the dramtic!!*

I alomost hate to reply to this, but I have ran a 441, and I mean ran it chasing under a swing yarder for a week with no processor, I prefer Huskys but I seen nothing wrong with it the saw it ran strong enough. I agree with Gary alot of folks are still running up to 20 year old saws out there, alot of em in the 5-10 year range, so I think it will take awhile for epa approved saws to really hit the mainstream logging world. I also feel saws have come along way from what they were atleast stock ones as far as power to weight ratios, and being better designed. Maybe it will be a positive thing hell I remember bucking and limbing with a 181 and a 36'' bar, and then one day they brought me a new 272, it made my life easier the weight does take a toll after 8-12 hours in about every position You can dream of. And the faster chain speed made me more efficient. Maybe if a few of these guys had to shell out there own money for a saw they'd be a little less likely to throw em around.
That's my two cents


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## TheBeerGuy (May 21, 2009)

Hey just too let you guys know I was talking to my ex girlfriends step uncle who used to be a part time small engine mechanic and he said after 2010 all chainsaw will be limited to 49 cc. So we better stock up now but remember to pay in cash just in case they check sales records looking for people that own too many saws.


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## hermit (May 21, 2009)

No need to worry about chainsaws, the way it is going the treehuggers will have it outlawed to cut any tree by then. won't that just be peachy ? No need to even think for ourselves, our socialist friends will take from the rich untill there ain't any rich then what ? i'm off the soapbox


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## GASoline71 (May 22, 2009)

Change is hard... People embrace things they are passionate about, and get a little paranoid. I remmber when I was still riding dirt bike freqently... the big rumor was that all 2 stroke dirt bikes and other toys were going to be outlawed by 2001. Well... here we are... 2009. Still lots of 2 strokes out there with an aftermarket to support them. 

On the flip... we have better technologically advanced 4 stroke bikes and quads, that burn cleaner, run more efficient, and make gobs of power.

Will there ever be 4 stroke saws? No clue. But the saw and *** manufacturers are workin' dilligently to make a better product. No use fightin' it... it's gonna happen. It's not like we will hit a brick wall in 2010, and only have choked down versions of our favorite saws. There are new designs and I believe better products on the way.

Do I love my old saws??? you friggin' bet I do. Wouldn't want it any other way. But ya can't always have your cake and eat it too... 

Gary


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## bigskyguy5 (May 23, 2009)

WVwoodsman said:


> The newer EPA saws could also be equated to the newer regulations with automobiles and gas milage ratings. The old saws will be phased out, but there are lots of parts out there to keep them going for a long time should the loggers choose to keep running the old saws. The same could be said about the automobiles, lots of parts are still and will be available for years to come.



I agree with you on that!:jawdrop:


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## pelhamjeff (May 23, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> Change is hard... People embrace things they are passionate about, and get a little paranoid. I remmber when I was still riding dirt bike freqently... the big rumor was that all 2 stroke dirt bikes and other toys were going to be outlawed by 2001. Well... here we are... 2009. Still lots of 2 strokes out there with an aftermarket to support them.
> 
> On the flip... we have better technologically advanced 4 stroke bikes and quads, that burn cleaner, run more efficient, and make gobs of power.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm one of those paranoid people you're talking about. Change IS hard. Chainsaws are only one of countless things I wish the gubment would keep their hands off of. I didn't vote for change in 2008, and I resent a lot of the things our new president is trying to implement. Neither you nor I can keep the EPA from implementing the new emission standard. While you shrug it off and hi-five about your four stroke dirt bike, I will write to my congressman, cling to my old saws and about continue to rant.


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## bigskyguy5 (May 23, 2009)

*Changings*



Over the years my wife and I have seen alot of changes. We remember seeing our 1st cell phones. Remember when TV only had ABC CBS and NBC. We feel some changes have been good while others have not been good.

In business though, if one is not willing to change with the times, and embrace the changes that we have seen in the logging and Bio Mass and large scale firewood business, they get left behind. We did not vote for this president either and we do not like bailouts either. We live not only within our means, but people that know us say below our financial means. but then again we owe no one a dime. Not even a credit card. 

God bless everyone.

Ed & Rhonda
Angel fire Timber & Firewood LLC:greenchainsaw:


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## spencerhenry (May 24, 2009)

government mandates are going to make saws better? if you believe that i have a bridge to sell you. 
can anybody think of ONE thing that the government has made "better" by their involvement. 
i like others have plenty of saws that will keep going for longer than i do. but just to be sure, pick up and extra 440 or 460. as far as the 441, never run one, but according to the stihl brochure, it weighs more than the 440 but has less power.
besides, once the "new" saws come out, if i own one it will not stay stock for long.


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## capetrees (May 25, 2009)

I just saw a brand new 440 sitting on the shelf yesterday and was thinking of grabbing it. Maybe I will. 

And if everyone buys up current saws and continues to bebuild them and maintain them, the epa regs won't matter. Its no different than the current diesel regs in new trucks with the new exhaust burners. Old trucks still run on the road and nobody has outlawed them and they can still be repaired and rebuilt. Same will happen with the new saws. Maybe by 2020 all the old saw will have died off after being used and rebuilt too many times but I wouldn't worry about 2010.

BTW, why isn't the Stihl 090 sold in the US anymore?


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## Wild Knight (May 25, 2009)

Took my 441 to the GTG this weekend, and a lot of guys from this site ran it for the first time. They all made the same comment - "Now, why don't guys like this saw again?". None of them felt is was heavy, they all thought it had excellent power in the cut (28" beech hardwood I might add), and all felt it was very low vibe. Some even said is was smoother than the Dolmar 7900. 

None of the fears or paranoia are true. Anyone who badmouths the 441 just flat out has never run one.


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## GASoline71 (May 25, 2009)

pelhamjeff said:


> I guess I'm one of those paranoid people you're talking about. Change IS hard. Chainsaws are only one of countless things I wish the gubment would keep their hands off of. I didn't vote for change in 2008, and I resent a lot of the things our new president is trying to implement. Neither you nor I can keep the EPA from implementing the new emission standard. While you shrug it off and hi-five about your four stroke dirt bike, I will write to my congressman, cling to my old saws and about continue to rant.



I don't own a four stroke dirt bike for that matter... 2 strokes... all of them.

Glad you're paranoid... so I don't have to be.

Gary


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## pelhamjeff (May 25, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> I don't own a four stroke dirt bike for that matter... 2 strokes... all of them.
> 
> Glad you're paranoid... so I don't have to be.
> 
> Gary



Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean the feds aren't going to be detrimental to the next generation of saws. Also, I'm going to refer to myself as "vigilant" instead of "paranoid". As in "glad you're vigalent...so I don't have to be".


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## BarkBuster20 (May 26, 2009)

i have some not so good news but not really bad concerning newer saws. my buddys has a 2-3 month old 460 and me n him landed a lil gig thinin 7 acres of reprod but anyway he leaned a lil fir back on it and pinched it pretty good so i put a relief cut on the face. tree fell nicely and all appeared well, (he was holding onto the handle and the tree flipped it against the ground very weakly and he picks it up and i notice the whole thing bent, broke most of the engine mounts and cost a lil more than 40 bucks to get fixed. older 046 or 044 may have gotten scratched. but other than that the power to weight is very nice.


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## GASoline71 (May 26, 2009)

pelhamjeff said:


> Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean the feds aren't going to be detrimental to the next generation of saws. Also, I'm going to refer to myself as "vigilant" instead of "paranoid". As in "glad you're vigalent...so I don't have to be".



Touche` mang... 

Gary


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## GASoline71 (May 26, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> i have some not so good news but not really bad concerning newer saws. my buddys has a 2-3 month old 460 and me n him landed a lil gig thinin 7 acres of reprod but anyway he leaned a lil fir back on it and pinched it pretty good so i put a relief cut on the face. tree fell nicely and all appeared well, (he was holding onto the handle and the tree flipped it against the ground very weakly and he picks it up and i notice the whole thing bent, broke most of the engine mounts and cost a lil more than 40 bucks to get fixed. older 046 or 044 may have gotten scratched. but other than that the power to weight is very nice.



LMAO... you guys sound like a recipie for disaster with any saw... It don't matter if it was an "older" 044 or 046. The "old" saws have just as much plastic, and mostly the same parts as the "new saws. SO that is a non issue... plus this thread was about emissions and "choked down" saws to begin with.

Holdin' on to the handle of a pinched saw as a tree goes over is a sure way to get hurt or killed. Not many trees hit the ground "weakly"... not even small trees.

Gary


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## STEVEGODSEYJR (May 26, 2009)

Holdin' on to the handle of a pinched saw as a tree goes over is a sure way to get hurt or killed. Not many trees hit the ground "weakly"... not even small trees.

Gary[/QUOTE]

I thought this was common sense but sense isn't that common anymore!!


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## oregoncutter (May 26, 2009)

*Maybe not as weak as You thought*



BarkBuster20 said:


> i have some not so good news but not really bad concerning newer saws. my buddys has a 2-3 month old 460 and me n him landed a lil gig thinin 7 acres of reprod but anyway he leaned a lil fir back on it and pinched it pretty good so i put a relief cut on the face. tree fell nicely and all appeared well, (he was holding onto the handle and the tree flipped it against the ground very weakly and he picks it up and i notice the whole thing bent, broke most of the engine mounts and cost a lil more than 40 bucks to get fixed. older 046 or 044 may have gotten scratched. but other than that the power to weight is very nice.



Sounds like You guys made out o.k, the weight of a tree and the force they can exert when coming off of the hinge is alot more than some people realize, even smaller trees, at one point it probably had alot of pressure on it. the one I ran I used pretty hard, it wasn't babied and being a landing saw had a few I don't give sht it's not mine guys using it.


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