# Felling Frozen Trees



## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 13, 2010)

It's peak harvest/culling season, here. The bottom where I'm working has been well below freezing for over a month - very rare in these parts - never seen it this bad. 

So, all the trees are frozen, hard - very brittle, falling like snags, dropping limbs, hinge breaks early, etc. 

No worries, haven't had any problem trees ... yet ... BUT, before I do:

*I'm hoping to get some honest advice from the Pro's (up North) that are used to working with frozen trees. Have you got any helpful tips about what (if anything) to do different when falling a frozen tree: more (or less) hinge, wedging, face cut, bore cut, etc., etc.?* 

Thanks in advance, Jack


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## Marc (Jan 13, 2010)

Disclaimer: not a pro, but have worked with some

The biggest thing on my mind: because frozen wood tends to split easier, and the splits propagate further and faster, be ever the more vigilant about the possibility of barber chairs. Especially in species prone to it (red oak comes to mind right away). So I'm very careful with leaners and/or unbalanced crowns.


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## Turkeyslayer (Jan 13, 2010)

I fall them like normal, just be more aware of the lay because if they hit anything on the ground or on the way down there is more of a chance of splitting. Also be aware that frozen trees have more of a tendancy to spit out wedges. I have been clearing some bitternut hickories lately and have found boring in the face of the notch really helps with not only splitting, but really reduces the amount of fibre pull. Frozen trees are also more apt to barber chair.


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## bitzer (Jan 13, 2010)

I agree, that they will tend to spit out wedges easier. The trees are less forgiving obviously because they aren't as flexible. When they go they go though. Boreing first is a safe practice and try to avoiding hard wedging when possible. Trees that you could wedge in warmer temps can be a real ##### to wedge when frozen. I've also had hinges break when wedging, but that was at about 20 below F with the wind blowing. Not exactly ideal conditions. I would not leave more hinge it will make it harder to get moving. As far as face it depends on the tree. Unless you have to, try to fell them with the lean, because they will be harder to swing or wedge. You may want a slightly deeper face. It just depends on the tree though. The limbs should hold onto a green tree well enough. Dead stuff in the tree, always look up.


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## fmaglin (Jan 13, 2010)

Here in Ohio the temps have been not much higher than 20 degrees by mid afternoon. I bore cut the head leaners, and usually walk out the lay. So far I've only had one Walnut split when it hit the ground. Just this afternoon I was wedging a Maple when it spit the wedge and hit me right square in the face. Nothin like eating some cold hard plastic when your face is cold to begin with.


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 13, 2010)

I know a lot of guys don't want to hear "bore cut" but there's a time and place for it around here. Bore the face to eliminate the heartwood and shorten the hinge, this should eliminate all spliting in most situations.


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## Turkeyslayer (Jan 13, 2010)

Nailsbeats said:


> I know a lot of guys don't want to hear "bore cut" but there's a time and place for it around here. Bore the face to eliminate the heartwood and shorten the hinge, this should eliminate all spliting in most situations.



:agree2:Thats what I meant when I said bore in the notch. It really works good. It can save your most valuable timber.


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## 371groundie (Jan 13, 2010)

we take advantage of the cold and drop softwoods onto eachother, or past eachother on purpose to break all the liimbs off. when bucking out your logs the wood is also more prone to split. cut halfway through from the top and then finnish from the bottom, or vice versa depending on the tension. 

hitting wedges HARD tends to make them spit back more than gentle hits. i swung an 8lb maul with a short handle one year until i got sick of hunting for my wedges in the snow. ive got like a 2.5 - 3 lb ax that does alot better. lots of gentle hits will drive the tree over without the wedge parting company. 

remember that snow and ice can make your escape path more of a challenge. lots of times ill shovel a donut around the tree so i can get every inch of good log but then forget to make an escape. its sucks to remember your escape when the tree is on its way over.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 14, 2010)

bitzercreek1 said:


> I agree, that they will tend to spit out wedges easier. The trees are less forgiving obviously because they aren't as flexible. When they go they go though. Boreing first is a safe practice and try to avoiding hard wedging when possible. Trees that you could wedge in warmer temps can be a real ##### to wedge when frozen. I've also had hinges break when wedging, but that was at about 20 below F with the wind blowing. Not exactly ideal conditions. I would not leave more hinge it will make it harder to get moving. As far as face it depends on the tree. Unless you have to, try to fell them with the lean, because they will be harder to swing or wedge. You may want a slightly deeper face. It just depends on the tree though. The limbs should hold onto a green tree well enough. Dead stuff in the tree, always look up.


 Ya , what he said .... Seriously . Especially the fall them with the lean . If you need to wedge , get some 10" and a 12" textured plastic wedge with the teeth on one side ... Maybe if no one around there has them you could have one of the saw dealers who is a member on here send you some ... If you need more than a 10" wedge , most of the time you really need to think about what you are doing ...


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## tramp bushler (Jan 14, 2010)

fmaglin said:


> Here in Ohio the temps have been not much higher than 20 degrees by mid afternoon. I bore cut the head leaners, and usually walk out the lay. So far I've only had one Walnut split when it hit the ground. Just this afternoon I was wedging a Maple when it spit the wedge and hit me right square in the face. Nothin like eating some cold hard plastic when your face is cold to begin with.


.

. I,m all together too familar with that feeling .OUCH ... I can feel your pain !!!. Get some hard textured plastic , with the teeth on one side ... I put the teeth on the stump side , as it is the tree that moves , the teeth don,t stick in the butt log and take off with the tree .. That or use a Magie ,12" aluminum wedge , but I really don,t recomend them . some guys still don,t wear eye protection . and a maggy will put an eye out quick ....I mostly use a 28 oz. framing ( rig builders ) ax ....If I have to lift a big tree then a 5 lb 36" long pole handled rafting ax ... Or a big mallet ......


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## tramp bushler (Jan 14, 2010)

Nailsbeats said:


> I know a lot of guys don't want to hear "bore cut" but there's a time and place for it around here. Bore the face to eliminate the heartwood and shorten the hinge, this should eliminate all spliting in most situations.


.

.

. Yup .I do this alot , bore the heart out from the face side leave a post of holding wood on both sides unless I,m using a swing dutchman ....


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## dingeryote (Jan 14, 2010)

371groundie said:


> we take advantage of the cold and drop softwoods onto eachother, or past eachother on purpose to break all the liimbs off. when bucking out your logs the wood is also more prone to split. cut halfway through from the top and then finnish from the bottom, or vice versa depending on the tension.
> 
> hitting wedges HARD tends to make them spit back more than gentle hits. i swung an 8lb maul with a short handle one year until i got sick of hunting for my wedges in the snow. ive got like a 2.5 - 3 lb ax that does alot better. lots of gentle hits will drive the tree over without the wedge parting company.
> 
> remember that snow and ice can make your escape path more of a challenge. lots of times ill shovel a donut around the tree so i can get every inch of good log but then forget to make an escape. its sucks to remember your escape when the tree is on its way over.



I'll second the escape route issue.
Ya can't move too quick with snow up to your knees, and quite often you'll find limbs in the snow the hard way and at the worst time.

If ya don't get whomped, the next issue is falling on pointy stuff.

Last time I forgot to stomp a hasty route and needed one, I swore I would never do that again.
It takes an extra Min. but even if it isn't needed, saves time finding stuff ya dropped or tossed while concentrating upwards.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## bitzer (Jan 14, 2010)

fmaglin said:


> Just this afternoon I was wedging a Maple when it spit the wedge and hit me right square in the face. Nothin like eating some cold hard plastic when your face is cold to begin with.



I thought for sure I knocked some teeth out the last time it happened to me. I felt like I got punched really hard in the cheek. The first thing I did was make sure I had all of my pearlies in there. Lucky it wasn't my eye!





I also forgot to mention the escape. Like the others said the path is going to be harder to find unless you plan and clear it before you do anything. There is always more prep work in winter cutting. Its hard to move fast in 2 feet of snow and see what you are steppin on!


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## fmaglin (Jan 14, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> . I,m all together too familar with that feeling .OUCH ... I can feel your pain !!!. Get some hard textured plastic , with the teeth on one side ... I put the teeth on the stump side , as it is the tree that moves , the teeth don,t stick in the butt log and take off with the tree .. That or use a Magie ,12" aluminum wedge , but I really don,t recomend them . some guys still don,t wear eye protection . and a maggy will put an eye out quick ....I mostly use a 28 oz. framing ( rig builders ) ax ....If I have to lift a big tree then a 5 lb 36" long pole handled rafting ax ... Or a big mallet ......



Thanks for the tip on the teethed wedges. I'll have to try some.Today I used a Hard Head wedge and it seemed to work pretty well.... something about having that steel head really made it drive well. I always wear eye protection which would be an absolute must with the Hard Head as with a maggy.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 14, 2010)

fmaglin said:


> Thanks for the tip on the teethed wedges. I'll have to try some.Today I used a Hard Head wedge and it seemed to work pretty well.... something about having that steel head really made it drive well. I always wear eye protection which would be an absolute must with the Hard Head as with a maggy.



I cut a nice black walnut today and thought of you. We don't have much BW in our woods. But I do occasionally pass tractor trailer loads of BW rough cut. I think, $$$$$$$.

Cut a 750 bf cherry yesterday, not bad not bad.

The hard heads, they drive well as singles but I think they squirt out like hell if you have to stack them. And, they're awfully heavy. Me, K&H 12".

Hope all is well.


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## Turkeyslayer (Jan 14, 2010)

hammerlogging said:


> I cut a nice black walnut today and thought of you. We don't have much BW in our woods. But I do occasionally pass tractor trailer loads of BW rough cut. I think, $$$$$$$.
> 
> Cut a 750 bf cherry yesterday, not bad not bad.
> 
> ...



When stacking wedges I like to take a little of the dirt/sawdust combo I got going on in my pockets, and sprinkle it between the wedges. Helps them stick together.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 15, 2010)

fmaglin said:


> Thanks for the tip on the teethed wedges. I'll have to try some.Today I used a Hard Head wedge and it seemed to work pretty well.... something about having that steel head really made it drive well. I always wear eye protection which would be an absolute must with the Hard Head as with a maggy.


.

. When doubling I like a 12" Hard Head and a 12" toothed . and I put the teeth on the tree side and the Hard Head on the stump side .......


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## wldrbob (Jan 15, 2010)

we cut our face notch then cut both sides then the back cut it will break of 10 or so inches sq but you never split the frozen logs im in canada and we cut poplar white spruce tamarack and birch mostly not real big nothing over maybe 40 inches at the most


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## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2010)

*Ya that works*



wldrbob said:


> we cut our face notch then cut both sides then the back cut it will break of 10 or so inches sq but you never split the frozen logs im in canada and we cut poplar white spruce tamarack and birch mostly not real big nothing over maybe 40 inches at the most


..

But , I prefer to cut the heart out and leave a post of holding wood on both sides , it helps steer the tree into it,s lay ......Plus it is easier to see what you have for holding wood ...... Alot of heart rot in Alaskan timber ...


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## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2010)

Welcome to Arborists Site Bob !!


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 16, 2010)

Nailsbeats said:


> I know a lot of guys don't want to hear "bore cut" but there's a time and place for it around here. *Bore the face to eliminate the heartwood and shorten the hinge*, this should eliminate all spliting in most situations.





tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> .
> 
> . Yup .I do this alot , *bore the heart out from the face side leave a post of holding wood on both sides* unless I,m using a swing dutchman ....





tramp bushler said:


> ..
> 
> But , I prefer to *cut the heart out and leave a post of holding wood on both sides* , it helps steer the tree into it,s lay ......Plus it is easier to see what you have for holding wood ...... Alot of heart rot in Alaskan timber ...



Used a 'deep' face-cut and bored the face, Thursday on a frozen oak 'back-leaner'. Worked great! Thanks!!! 


BTW: Welcome *wldrbob*


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## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2010)

*Good deal !!*

I,m glad it worked for you ...... Sometimes I cut the heart out while cutting the back cut but there is a greater chance of having the tree sit on your tip before you have it cut up enough to fall , so then you have to wedge it up off your bar tip . YUK !!:censored:....
.
. That trick I learned from Blitzercreek , bore all the way thru and out the back cut , set a wedge tight and then saw up the side straps as you beat the tree over is a good one for the small trees also !!!


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## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2010)

Turkeyslayer said:


> When stacking wedges I like to take a little of the dirt/sawdust combo I got going on in my pockets, and sprinkle it between the wedges. Helps them stick together.


.

. You are the 2nd guy I have heard do this , I,m going to give it a try next time I have to double up ..Most of the time my toothed wedge is in my tramp sack / fallers pack . and I don,t want to go hiking after it .....Larry Hunsley was the other guy , and he was a good old faller fm Oregon ........ It makes sense ... I prolly won,t get a chance this winter as I generally don,t have to double up ,here ........In Southeast tho ..


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## Walt41 (Jan 16, 2010)

It is worth repearting this. Odd stuff happens in cold wood, always always always have 2 stomped down escape routes, stuff gets hidden by the snow and magically appears when you are running for your life. Look up, often..take time to read the tree and watch out for widow makers, frozen stuff loves to crack off, change direction and hit your cutting buddy like a spear, so I'm told.

TS-love the use of sawdust as a bonding agent.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Jan 16, 2010)

371groundie said:


> we take advantage of the cold and drop softwoods onto eachother, or past eachother on purpose to break all the liimbs off. when bucking out your logs the wood is also more prone to split. cut halfway through from the top and then finnish from the bottom, or vice versa depending on the tension.
> 
> hitting wedges HARD tends to make them spit back more than gentle hits. i swung an 8lb maul with a short handle one year until i got sick of hunting for my wedges in the snow. ive got like a 2.5 - 3 lb ax that does alot better. lots of gentle hits will drive the tree over without the wedge parting company.
> 
> remember that snow and ice can make your escape path more of a challenge. lots of times ill *shovel a donut around the tree *so i can get every inch of good log but then forget to make an escape. its sucks to remember your escape when the tree is on its way over.





Walt41 said:


> It is worth repearting this. Odd stuff happens in cold wood, always always always have 2 *stomped down escape routes*, stuff gets hidden by the snow and magically appears when you are running for your life. Look up, often..take time to read the tree and watch out for widow makers, frozen stuff loves to crack off, change direction and hit your cutting buddy like a spear, so I'm told.
> 
> TS-love the use of sawdust as a bonding agent.





dingeryote said:


> I'll second the escape route issue.
> Ya can't move too quick with snow up to your knees, and quite often you'll find limbs in the snow the hard way and at the worst time.
> 
> If ya don't get whomped, the next issue is falling on pointy stuff.
> ...



I did, indeed, 'stomp' two standard escape routes ... all around the tree ... and then a third one, just in case the tree 'popped' early while I was on the bad side ... which it did ... thank God I listened to you guys. I was a long way away when it nailed the target. I'd rep y'all again, if I could.


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## LumberjkChamp (Jan 16, 2010)

One of the potential hazards to be on the lookout for in frozen wood are springpoles. I don't think they have been mentioned yet. Well, you have to watch springpoles all the time, but when they're frozen they explode. The only trick really is catching them when you're buzzing down the trunk bumping limbs off before you accidentally treat them as just another limb. They can be safely handled and unloaded with a kerf width cut almost paralell to the limb on the compression side. Or several shallow cuts spaced a small distance from one another perpendicular to the limb. Once again, on the compression side.
I've read too many stories of smashed in faces, busted shins, knees, noses and teeth to ignore the threat of a loaded branch. A small two incher under the right tension can be deadly if a cut is made on the tension side first.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2010)

*White Ash especially*

. I was taught that when I was young .. In the PNW they have Vine Maple .. I have heard of it killing guys ... I have had White ash saplings ,2-3" dia somehow turn to spears when loaded and released from the top , I was at a 90 degree angle to the one I can still see I purposly reached out and tapped the top of it with the chain and it split and flew horizontally backwards for about 15' . had anyone been standing there they would have been run thru I,m sure ....... 
. Red Cedar limbs can be awefully darn lively sometimes .....


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## dingeryote (Jan 16, 2010)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> I did, indeed, 'stomp' two standard escape routes ... all around the tree ... and then a third one, just in case the tree 'popped' early while I was on the bad side ... which it did ... thank God I listened to you guys. I was a long way away when it nailed the target. I'd rep y'all again, if I could.



Darn if Boots don't gain 5lbs each sometimes eh?
Glad ya didn't get whomped!

Thanks for the rep.!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## hammerlogging (Jan 17, 2010)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> I did, indeed, 'stomp' two standard escape routes ... all around the tree ... and then a third one, just in case the tree 'popped' early while I was on the bad side ... which it did ... thank God I listened to you guys. I was a long way away when it nailed the target. I'd rep y'all again, if I could.



Heard that bud, you klnow your cutting in some sort of tough situation is if your damn third escape option is where you're trying to put the tree in the first place.

I had a really steep pitch with a couple huge oaks on it and I swear there were 3 times where I had to excavate a honest to god goat trail to make sure I could get out of there-- kick off snow, then remove loose rocks and sticks, then scratch it a hair level. But I had to, this was ground you couldn't stand on in the first place. Other times it was just, as SlowP would say, "vegetation belays", ditch saw uphill, and flop/dive from one sapling to the next until you roll over on your back and see her crashing through the canopy looking for anything flying at you. Steep. I much prefer where you can atleast stay on your feet.


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