# Notch Configurations



## B.Secord (Feb 11, 2004)

Thought I would ask the guys that deal in large trees a question in regard to which notch is best for removing medium to large trees? I have always used the open-face notch, as I believe it to be more forgiving to error in height of back-cut. Or maybe a person should use different notches for different types of wood.
Sorry if this has been a thread in the past, however, I was unable to locte it in any of the other realms. Us prairie dogs don't have a lot of loggers to ask, so any input would be appreciated.

THX Brent


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## Ryan Willock (Feb 11, 2004)

It all depends. You are ahead of the game by using the open face though. If I have one that I know is going to be hard to wedge then I use the humbolt as I feel it makes wedging easier.


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## B.Secord (Feb 11, 2004)

THX Ryan,

The reason I asked, was when I was reading on this site about HINGE Forensics, I got to thinking what may be the best.....AND I came to the conclusion that the conventional & humbolt may distort or impede the trunk prior to hitting the ground. In most cases we can't afford the trunk hitting the ground and bouncing (to the sides).
The removals that we do, are mostly beside dwellings, with a minimal margin for error. I guess if it works ----then it doesn't need tinkering...Would still like some more input as to the use of other notches!!!!

THX Brent


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## Ryan Willock (Feb 12, 2004)

If you are used to the open face then using the humbolt would take some REAL getting used to.


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## SasquatchMan (Feb 18, 2004)

Hey guys - dummy newbie feller here... I understand and utilize the open-face notch when felling lodgepole pine for firewood (and I'm really happy with the directional capabilities of that type of cut). 

What's a Humbolt?


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## treeman82 (Feb 18, 2004)

Humbolt is the reverse of a conventional notch. Instead of making your angle cut facing down to the ground, you would be making it so that your angle cut is facing up towards the sky.


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## rmihalek (Feb 19, 2004)

I recall reading that sawmills wanted flat bottoms on the logs, so the humboldt notch was used by loggers instead of an open-faced (two angled cuts) or the conventional notch. It sounds logical...


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2004)

I like to use a snipe in a conventional face when I want the butt to stay close to the stump, or when topping to prevent a catapult effect.


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## John Ellison (Feb 19, 2004)

I think that as a general rule the Humbolt is used mainly on the West coast. The timber is "swell butted", so with a Humbolt the waste is taken out of the stump. Also in truly large timber it will minimize breakage by letting the butt slip to the ground first. If you did make the cuts at ground level the swell would have to be removed from the log anyway.
Most of time other areas use a conventional face to keep a lower stump and recover the most of the log.
IMHO either notch performs the same until the face closes.

John


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## B.Secord (Feb 19, 2004)

Thanks for the insite guys, I could never figure out what the uses of the different notches were,MUCH appreciated, as I am still on a vertical learning curve!!!! 

Brent: Fine line between tough and stupid---- oops!!!


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## rmihalek (Feb 19, 2004)

Dear MasterBlaster,

Can you describe what a "snipe" is in a notch?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2004)

Rmihaylek, a snipe is basically a conventional cut with a Humbolt added to it. It can be partial, or full. Only a full snipe would be really a Humbolt. A partial snipe is just that, partial. It doesn't extend completely back to meet the front of the hinge.

I think I asplained that right!


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## wiley_p (Feb 20, 2004)

Also on steep ground a humboldt is nice.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 21, 2004)

As Butch states a snipe is a bottom wedge removed that does not meet the apex of the face.

ths leaves a small ledge for the face to close on and separate the hing, but then it can slide down the snipe, as explained in the Humbold description.

For any non logging felling, a wide open face is usually the best, because the holding wood will remain intact the longest.

Sometimes, as in poping off a top, we want the hing to separate "early" so we use a narrow face. Using a Humbolt in this case is said to reduce the "push back" of the top coming off the spar.


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## rmihalek (Feb 24, 2004)

I attempted to draw a Humbolt notch with a snipe based on what I gathered from your replies. Is the drawing clear? Is it correct?


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Yes, that is a snipe. The snipe is the ledge, you can combine it with any face to acheive a certain end. But for directional falling, you want a completely open face, without any snipe, so the faces stay open, and the hindge intact.

*Edit: I was a blithering idiot when i posted. I was mistaken. That is a pic of a step dutchman, not a snipe. Sorry.*


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## tophopper (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *Yes, that is a snipe. The snipe is the ledge, you can combine it with any face to acheive a certain end. But for directional falling, you want a completely open face, without any snipe, so the faces stay open, and the hindge intact. *



You are mistaken Carl, that is not a snipe, it is a breached hinge.
Isnt all felling directional felling? An open faced hinge would be used when you want the face to stay open longer or all the way down. 

A basic notch- (humbolt or convential) can also be used for directional felling they just close sooner thus causing the hinge to break. 

Depending on the tree, site and many circumstances, a different type of face cut can be employed as needed. If the tree has lean towards your drop zone, a basic notch will usually work because once enough holding wood(back cut) is removed gravity will take it course. The height of this notch will determine how soon the face will close and the hingewood will break. 

A short notch= face closing sooner hinge breaking sooner
A tall notch = face closing later hinge breaking later
Open face= depending on the lean of tree may never fully close and hinge may stay intact.

An open face notch is good for trees which you pull out of a back lean because you want the tree to be well past center before your face closes up and hinge breaks.

Did that make any sense or did I repeat what everyone else has already said  

I must admit Carl your post worried me a bit, because it is clear that you dont have a full understanding of how a face cut & hinge actually function, but yet you pass advice to others as if you do know, which can be very detrimental.


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## John Ellison (Feb 24, 2004)

I agree Tophopper. From the looks of the drawing, I would call that a full face dutchman. Not what you want. Wish I could make drawings like that.

John


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)




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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

I guess am confused on the snipe, so I am rereading my info on it (gotta find it first) I read about it in one of Butch's books a while ago, so forgive me.

When I said directional felling, I was thinking about the most simple, longest lasting control. Such as a balanced or tree that is being pulled over. The longer the hinge stays intact (or if it even breaks), the more certainly you can place a spar, or a tree.

Let me look up that stuff, and post my corections.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Shat. Thats what it was. I reread what I could find on AS, and remembered.

The picture is of a full step dutchman. It forces the hinge to break early and can actually make the top land farther away from the tree or stump.


Butch, what was the name of that book you sent? I believe the authors name was Douglas Dent or Bent.

I appologize, I was mistaken. I was wrong. In my mind, I saw the pic of the step dutchman on the left (in butch's book) and the snipe was somewhere around there, probably on the right page.


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## Bremen (Feb 24, 2004)

You're probably talking about "Professional Timber Falling" by Douglas Dent.

I asked a few bookstores about it and they gave me real funny looks.. "You want what??". Bailey's has it though, $15.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Yeah thats the one.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)




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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

Na, it was the "Professional Timber Falling" by Douglas Dent that I was talkin about.

That one too tho.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *Na, it was the "Professional Timber Falling" by Douglas Dent that I was talkin about.
> 
> That one too tho. *




Cool.

But I learned it in Jerry's book.

I got Dent's book later.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 24, 2004)

I was refering to where I got it, and then got confused. I can still remember the pic and everything, I just got the captions backward, so my wording was wrong.

Both were good books tho, thanks. (It cost me 23 somthing to send them back)

PS All you had to do was sign the mentor thing for school, I did it.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 25, 2004)

I removed my foot from my mouth, when I got used to the taste


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## topnotchtree (Mar 14, 2004)

I was once told, made sense to me, that when logging you should alwaye use a humbolt notch. Using a conventional notch, would tear fibers from the inside of the log as the hinge wood breaks. For example, when looking at a stump, after the log has been dropped, I often see slivers of wood sticking up from stump. which have been pulled from the center of the log. I was told that sometimes these slivers can be pulled from mant feet up the log, wasting the log from lumber. Am I making any sense? Is this true?


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 14, 2004)

To the best of my knowledge, yes. It is not something you want. I always got chewed out when I did it, so I stopped.


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## topnotchtree (Mar 14, 2004)

So what did you do to stop it? cut thru your hingewood a little faster? open your face up more? change to the humbolt notch?


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 14, 2004)

Pretty much just cut thru the hinge quicker, but not too quick. I rarely get the chance to throw whole trees. They have usually been stripped to a snag, taking a lot of the weight that would pull the fibers out of the equation.


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## topnotchtree (Mar 14, 2004)

Here is another thought...when I am dropping big stuff. I make my backcut just a hair above the bottom cut of the notch. A little lower that most books teach you. In my mind, if the backcut is high, as the tree goes over, the hinge will at one point snap free and the log will drop to the stump, then the ground. A less controlled fall. If my backcut is low, it just seems to me the hinge holds together better. Is anyone following me here?


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## Timberjackboy (Mar 14, 2004)

*Notch*

Use the which ever notch you think is best, not every tre is going to come down perfect no matrter wahat notch. and if she elaning the wrong was shove it over with the skidder


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## topnotchtree (Mar 14, 2004)

Maybe I am thinking too deep on certain things. I was just looking for opinions. Or if anyone else has the same goofy thoughts as I do.


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## Climber2 (Mar 26, 2004)

I agree that a lower back cut will hinge better. To reduce fiber pull from the log I will poke the bar tip through the center of the hinge as long as I don't need to swing the tree very far. Of course direction is more important than pull from a log.

Mike


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