# Low impact pre-commercial thinning with a skidsteer - am I nuts?



## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

I've got 84 acres that needs thinning. I'm looking at roughly 5 cords per acre of 10" or less oak and maple, and moving some larger diameter basswood (20-24" DBH) and aspen (max 16" DBH).

I have moved some bigger trees with my atv and log arch, but understand that this is way slow for a commercial venture. It is possible for me to get all the trees I need gone to my landing with this method.

I'm wondering if I used a bigger skidsteer (like a Cat 262 or 272) with a grapple to stage wood, and then hauled it on a mid sized trailer to the landing and used skidsteer to stack it - could I pull this off?

I have enough room to get a skidsteer around in the woods, but I don't want to make trails big enough for a traditional skidder or fellerbuncher. I also want to keep the job in-house. Time isn't the biggest factor either. If it takes 6 months, that's ok by me. I have experience felling trees in this stand, so I'm not going in blind. I don't have experience doing what I'm doing using real machinery. I've cleared a couple acres already without any mechanized help, and those were done over a few days each. Not having to manhandle the wood should substantially speed things up. I can clear cut an acre in a few hours, which sounds in-line with what I've seen guys here post.

Total estimated volume to be removed is 400 cords (not all at once - this thinning could take 4-5 years depending on how much time I devote to it), but I haven't done the basal calculations on-site yet. Some areas will be clear cut too, so there will be bigger wood, but not hundreds of cords of it. I plan to stage things in saw logs and cull/pulp, then have timber buyers come in and bid when it's on the ground. Cull will either be cut for firewood (processed later) or sold to a pulp mill to generate cash flow.

I'm not looking to get rich, but I would like to keep the profit from the wood (rather than hiring a pro). I'm not afraid of long hours or hard work. A/C cab is a must - I'll plug away all summer long if that's what it takes.


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2014)

I know nothing about skid steers. I have learned that the secret to "low impact" or in other words, not tearing things up to badly depends on the skill of the machine operator. There are people who can operate a D-9 in a tight stand of trees and do less damage than an unskilled "Gotta get it out fast" guy on a small skidder. Size doesn't matter as much as operator skill. What is your skill level?


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

I can drive just about anything with an engine with at least a moderate level of finesse. Several years ago I even had my learners permit for planes (9/11 happened so I never got my license).

If I can turn 2-3 cords a day, it'll be fine as far as speed goes. That should allow me to cut for a few hours in the morning, bunch and shuffle the wood mid-day, and then clean up/spread the tops late afternoon - or something to that effect.

I've also looked at the guys doing this work with tree shears, and that's another option.

The power companies here are all using ASV's for right of way maintenance. I don't believe they use anything bigger, just cut the trunks up if they weigh too much.


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## Gologit (Feb 5, 2014)

For "low impact" logging a skid steer wouldn't be my first choice. If your ground isn't steep think about a small farm type tractor with big low pressure tires and maybe one of those hobby logger winches like Farmi makes.

Slowp said it right...a good operator is key. Knowing when to straight drag, knowing how to turn, knowing when to yo-yo with the winch, knowing when and how to use turn trees...these things will come to you in time. 

And if by low impact you mean absolutely no soil disturbance, slash, or scarred skid roads...give it another thought. Low impact doesn't mean no impact.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

It's almost pancake flat, and the areas which are hilly can be dealt with from below.

Low impact in my use of the term has more to do with not crushing or wiping out more than absolutely necessary to get the targeted trees out. Soil compaction isn't a big concern, and much of the forest floor is already choked out from a closed canopy, so tearing up grass isn't an issue. I still have some 20' wide travel corridors from when Potlatch last cut in it, and more of those is what I'm most interested in preventing. Getting wood out on existing trails is possible with smaller equipment. Those trails are already pretty mudded up, so I'll be adding slash as it becomes available.

Getting a tractor capable of lifting what one of these skidsteers will puts it well out of the compact size class. Otherwise, I'd agree a tractor would be a good choice for skidding. I can drag trees with my atv, I need something more capable for stacking the wood. I know it won't be ideal. I have other uses for the skidsteer once the thinning is done.


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## lmbrman (Feb 5, 2014)

What is the average diameter and height of the trees to be removed? Reason I ask is 10cords per acre would be a light commercial thinning here and quite saleable. I understand you want it 'in house' though and I respect that.

Slowp and Gologit have it right about impact. Operator is key, but skidsteer can make a mess.


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## lmbrman (Feb 5, 2014)

Sorry Jim, almost forgot to answer 'am I nuts'- well, I don think so, but that doesn't mean much. Nuts to me is buying a 'load of logs' to turn into cookies and time your cuts.

-dave


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## slowp (Feb 5, 2014)

Well, if you want almost no impact, you could get a helicopter...but watch them because a bad pilot can knock tree tops out.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

Most of what's coming out will be in the 6-10" and up to 40' crowns (I've gotten up 25' in a climbing tree stand without cutting any limbs on my 15" oak trees). It's all pretty straight and doesn't have much for lower branches.

Potlatch owned it for 50+ years before me (that's as far back as the records were kept), and they have pulled 20+" trees out about 35-40 years ago based on what's left of the stumps. I have what looks like the remains of a yarder anchor cable in the old landing. Sadly, I haven't gotten anywhere with them requesting the history of the parcel. We know they did some cutting in the 90's after a tornado came through, but aside from that, they haven't been in there since the 70's.

I don't think I'll have more than 5 cords per acre outside of the areas I'm clear cutting - that's probably not going to exceed 10 acres if I even do the additional clear cuts I'm contemplating. I know I'll have 6 acres which should be 10 cords each (I'm clearing a rifle range), but beyond that it's just going to be to put some daylight in the canopy and give my better trees room while taking out my hockey sticks. 

I'll need to take out a loan to get this project underway. I'll be buying a skidsteer as part of it, but that'll be needed for my sawmilling operations too: which is another reason not to get a tractor.

Heli logging is out of the budget. Fuel and pilot rental would exceed my profit margins.


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## madhatte (Feb 5, 2014)

Don't forget that the goal of a thin -- either precommercial or commercial -- is improvement to the RESIDUAL stand. Damage to leave trees is far worse than missing a take tree. Have a look at this, particularly the diagrams on P. 8.


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## Gologit (Feb 5, 2014)

slowp said:


> Well, if you want almost no impact, you could get a helicopter...but watch them because a bad pilot can knock tree tops out.


 
True...but he gets yelled at when that happens. Or...if he knocks the tops out with a blade tip he usually gets eulogized.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

I've been studying up on this stuff since before I even closed on my land. I also have a neighbor up north who teaches forestry at the college in town, and he's been somewhat mentoring me on my habitat/timber work. So when I start working on the thinning part, I'll have him come check a couple acres of my progress and make sure I'm not doing bad things I'm unaware of. 

Thanks for the link Madhatte, I've seen some guides like that before, but seeing more takes on it is good for a noob.

So the three things I want to accomplish out of this are: get my range cut, get my crop trees growing again, and get part of a skidsteer out of the deal. 

I'm not really worried about profit for time invested (I consider every day I spend in the woods a vacation, regardless of how hard I sweat), but that I'm able to keep up with the expenses in assets removed. With some of the bigger red oaks in my rifle range (yet to be cleared), I'm sure I'll get a decent amount of at least grade 3 logs out of it. Much of the rest may or may not reach grade 6.

If my initial numbers are right, I could theoretically sell it all for firewood and make out, but I'd like to do better than that if I can. Paying off the initial loan as soon as possible is another goal I have. Being able to ride out the skidsteer loan payments should be rather painless once the wood starts moving.

My woods trailer is essentially a small forwarder. I suppose I should've clarified that. It'll handle 3,000lbs before the tires are maxed out for highway speeds. I'm not sure what the functional limitation of that thing is. I built it a bit stouter than it needed to be.


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## woodman6666 (Feb 5, 2014)

I would buy a track Skidsteer then put a tree terminator shear this will easily shear everything you described get the shear with accumulator arms this way you can shear and grab then place the whole tree where you want it
This is what we do on our clearing jobs


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

I've been planning on OTT tracks. CTS's suck in the snow, and I'll be using it to snowblow 1/2 mile of driveway when we move up there (house isn't built yet).

Shear and maybe a boom grapple for the little stuff? I have a full machine shop, so I can build any implements I need.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 5, 2014)

Here's a couple shots to give an idea what I'm up against:

This is poorer soils where there's a lot of black ash and burr oak:






This is where I've started felling trees along the edge of what will become the clear cut:





The remaining trees to the left are leaning such that they need wedges to go where I want them and I didn't have them with me that day (I know, I suck).

That's actually a living fence on that border. I've had some neighbors that think "no trespassing" doesn't apply to them, so I made it rather difficult to cross.  But, as I'm learning, I've left small veneer logs on the ground and should really extract those and sell them.

In the process of felling this half mile 30' wide corridor, I've gotten pretty good at dealing with snags and aiming through the canopy. All the trees have been dropped in N/S orientation, not just picking the best direction to lay them down. I can't make every tree do what I want, but I'm up around 85% lately. That includes knowing when to tug it with the winch for the extreme leaners.


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## KiwiBro (Feb 6, 2014)

Pleasantly surprised with what I can move with my wee tractor+logging winch+log forks. Little impact too. I know time isn't a prob' for you but if you've got any long skids to where you are staging it, tractors could be quite useful. But, yeah, trying to lift anything over about 1t onto a sawmill would be an issue. Also, spiking the tyres isn't much fun.


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## slowp (Feb 6, 2014)

So, are your skid trails pre located? That helps for directionally "dropping" trees so you can really have "low impact" logging. "Dropping" trees at a slight angle will help to get them out of the woods without knocking the bark off the leave trees. I don't know about there, but over here we have a couple of months when the sap starts running in the conifers, and during that time, the bark will slough off in big chunks if folks aren't careful with their falling and skidding practices. Also, wounds on trees will knock down the grade of the log. 

You may want to leave some rub trees, which you can cut after skidding or leave for wildlife. I wonder, will you be spinning your wheels a lot because a skid steer is not made for logging? That is not low impact.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

I'll have over tire tracks on it. I know they'll be higher ground pressure than a CTL would be - the problem with a CTL is that they don't handle stumps well, and they don't handle our snow and ice at all (you just spin). At $3K a pair of tracks, I can't afford to be chewing them up or having a set that are studded for winter (then I couldn't drive on the road).

I have a decent network of trails now, and will be adding more as the spring comes. There's no reason to haul trees more than a couple hundred yards from anywhere on the property on anything other than a trailer. I'll be moving the wood on a trailer or with the log arch for the longer lengths. The skidsteer will facilitate loading said trailer, but won't be towing it. I've pulled in excess of 3500# rolling load (up-hill no less) with my atv before (I'd never try that going down hill), so I don't imagine not being able to haul half a cord in a single trip without difficulty. Scooting around on that thing doesn't leave any marks once the mud's dried out in the spring. It's 50hp and only really limited in that it doesn't weigh enough to use all the power it has. I work the snot out of it now, so it should keep plugging away.

I have 7 mature red pines on all of my property, and have no desire to remove any of them. I've got a bunch of Norway spruce plugs I planted 2 years ago which haven't grown more than 9" (best case) since. There just isn't enough light. I spaced those off of what I expected would be my crop trees then, and now I expect to likely run them over with the thinning.  It's not like they're growing now anyway though...

Much of what I want to remove is poorly formed, undesirable species (I want to remove all my aspen and set it back for deer food before more of it breaks in half and dies), or obvious crowding where good trees just don't have room to grow bigger. Then there's the clear cuts, where I'll harvest every tree over 3" and come back with a brush hog and chew the rest up into mulch. If the mills don't want the tiny sticks, I'll cut them to 16" and sell `em as firewood (same as the uglies if the mills don't want them).

Before I start bucking logs, I'll find out what the mill's are buying. I'll also probably try to have the DNR forester come out too.

Thank you guys (and gal) for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. I know I'm jumping into unfamiliar territory, so I really appreciate the willingness to help. If you ever have any trouble with AR15's or 1911's let me know so I can try to return the kindness.


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## lfnh (Feb 6, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> /chop
> 
> *Before I start bucking logs*, I'll find out what the mill's are buying. I'll also probably try to have the DNR forester come out too.
> 
> Thank you guys (and gal) for taking the time to read and respond to this thread. I know I'm jumping into unfamiliar territory, so I really appreciate the willingness to help. If you ever have any trouble with AR15's or 1911's let me know so I can try to return the kindness.


 
+ for stump side bucking can be lower ground impact if forwarded out.
+ deck bucking - might get a grader to come in and mark for your buck cuts for better grade (money). Need to make it worthwhile for grader so volume and or quality is needed or may have to pay grader. But couple of good save bucks and a chance to learn a big part of where money can be made or dropped in bucking is worth considering.
You know how to measure the difference between veneer, tie, firewood and dirt, right ?

KiwiBro and others suggested tractor + Farmi. Good used mfwd and fel with some hp might be worth reconsidering.

Good luck.

mill contracts, in a better economy *maybe* if you have volume or something highly valueable they need and can get out on time. othrwise


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

I won't be bucking anything until I talk to the mills and find out what lengths are in demand. I doubt they'd do a contract right now. I just plan on cutting what needs cutting and then seeing who'll pay the most for it where it lies on the landing.

I'm no stranger to working with wood, so I can assume you're talking about bucking so there's the fewest defects in the remaining log, right?

Measuring for veneer is a concept I'm learning. I hadn't thought they went down as small as 15" (thought it was 18") before seeing it mentioned somewhere last night. I have some very straight wood without any evidence of defects for the first 18-25'. I also have some which have obviously had branches in the past. I'm still learning grading though. Any direction on where to go to learn more about it would be awesome.

Firewood and campfire wood are different in my mind. I have a mobile home "resort" just up the road from me. I'll be selling the little bits to them or their people. Bigger chunks to people who heat with it. I won't be cutting sticks out of the forest thinking I'm harvesting gold if that's what you were getting at?


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## Gologit (Feb 6, 2014)

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/building-roads-in-wetlands.208528/

Did you ever get your road?

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...oot-transplants-the-saga.207711/#post-3885429

How did those trees make out?


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## lmbrman (Feb 6, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> Heli logging is out of the budget. Fuel and pilot rental would exceed my profit margins.



Missed that before- what the heck is 'profit margins'? Some uncommon logging terminology? 

hahahaha -dave


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## slowp (Feb 6, 2014)

Gologit said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/building-roads-in-wetlands.208528/
> 
> Did you ever get your road?
> 
> ...


 

Hah! I thought this was a familiar line of "I want help, but no thank you because I already know what I'm going to do." Plus the rifle range and trespassing neighbors sounded like a rerun. 

Good job on digging that up! Apparently he got his ATV in somehow.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

Gologit said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/building-roads-in-wetlands.208528/
> 
> Did you ever get your road?
> 
> ...



They ended up dying. I'm down to 6.

I have permission to use the neighbors property to get to the county road, but I'd like to buy different access with the proceeds of the wood, which is why buying a bunch of additional equipment isn't possible. I don't think there will be that much money from the sale. Forgive me for not wanting to go broke like so many people in the industry do.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

I also have the blessing of the TEP to fill the wetlands for a driveway. So if I'm hauling my own loads, I can run whatever I want on the beach road as long as it's not over weight.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

woodman6666 said:


> I would buy a track Skidsteer then put a tree terminator shear this will easily shear everything you described get the shear with accumulator arms this way you can shear and grab then place the whole tree where you want it
> This is what we do on our clearing jobs



Aren't you glad you don't have people from the other side of the country telling you it won't work. 

I'd be interested in hearing more about your workflow, if you'd be so kind?


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## bitzer (Feb 6, 2014)

I hope this isn't your day job... Anyway a small single bunk forwarder would be the lowest impact you can achieve in your scenario. Skid steers don't have the ground clearance for logging. They are slow and will easily tear the woods up more than a forwarder. You can also load things with a forwarder. If you want to pay for your fuel, payments, expenses you will need to cut and skid at least 6 cords a day. If you want to make any kind of profit more like 12- 14 cords per day. Also remember that species like maple stain in the summer and will drop a grade within a few weeks. Ash also like to check and split. I hope you get it all figured out, but skid steer is not meant for logging nor would it be profitable when getting paid piece work.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

What are you figuring for fuel, payments, and expenses when you say that?


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## bitzer (Feb 6, 2014)

Well how much fuel you going to run through? Your saw also needs fuel and oil. It will also need parts, chains, etc... Whatever piece of equipment you get will break. You will need to budget that in as well. Lets say you are making 100 per cord to make it simple. You really should figure out what your cost per cord is. You won't really know until you have done it for a while, but you should get an idea before you tackle this. 2-3 cords per day sounds like $2-$300 per day, but it really isn't. Half to maybe 60% of my gross goes to expenses. That's just logging. Is this property your piece or someone elses? I'm guessing that MN is much like WI in that you need a contract to send pulp to a pulp mill. For that you need insurance and SFI cert. You might be able to find someone to buy the pulp roadside or sell it as firewood if you can get a hold of a trucker. Figure trucking as about $30/cord. Logs will be bought roadside for sure though. Usually with trucking available. Any guy I know who started logging with a skid steer always wished they made the jump to some type of skidder/forwarder instead. Its just not practical. Get a JD 440A and pole skid the stuff if you like. It would be roughly the same impact and you might make some money. I'd find a timberjack forwarder or the like. A lighter machine in the single bunk category.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 6, 2014)

here I thought this was an older thread that had been dredged up...

Anyway a forwarder of some sort will most likely save you tons of headache, even if you get the little trailer with a loader on it and pull it with your atv.

Once you put a load on big ugly wheels it suddenly becomes easy to move. 

Or some kind of cable skidder whether it be a small tractor with a winch or a small dedicated skidder. Even a small tractor has enough grunt to move short logs.
Its not real hard to rig up a set of forks to a skidder blade, not huge lift but you can get 4-5' out of em which should be enough to load a small mill.

Finally I would not go with a skid steer, they are small powerful and versatile, however they don't do real good off the well beaten path, because of their small wheel base and relatively small tires with zero articulation the can get stuck on a tooth pick in a pot hole, not to mention beating your brains and back to a pulp by the end of the day.

Cheers and welcome back.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

It's my land, and I am acting in accordance with my SFI management plan.

Even at 300 a day and 150 in expenses, that's 15/hr and perfectly acceptable to me right now.

I didn't do much up north last couple years because of health issues. I've had some nerve damage in my hands (which is being fixed with surgeries - 3 down, one to go) and I see this whole project as something to do for my own rehabilitation. I'm not getting into logging as you guys are, I'm just harvesting my wood and then moving on to other things. It might cost me a saw along the way (which I can rebuild unless I land a tree on it  ), it will cost me some chains, fuel, and oil. Whatever machines I run will obviously take some fuel as well. I've been figuring on $100/day in diesel for the time it's running.

Maybe a 40hp tractor would be worth ponying up for. I'll have to think about it.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 6, 2014)

costs for me, as an example...

saw gas oil etc probably around $10. a day

skidder diesel (about 4 gallons a day) so around $16.

crummy diesel about the same... or more, depending on the distance I have to travel.

so lets say costs are around $42. a day, for business sake I double that and hope I don't need parts anytime soon...

So your $300 day just turned into a $200 day or 20 an hour at 10 hours, and 10 hours is a long day of logging...

Now say something breaks... Gods forbid... skidder tires for me 1600 apiece... on sale new injection pump I'm looking at $800. broken mainline $120, hydraulic cylinder takes poop $500 (if I'm lucky)
Any one of these things or more go wrong I kiss my weeks profit goodbye.

I'm not giving you these examples to scare you off, just want you to be prepared for the inevitable. Now you can poke around with whatever equipment you like, but at some point your going to be up against the wall when it comes to parts vs payments vs production. With enough production you can overcome many oopsies on the way, with low production oopsies become oh no's pretty quick.

With less then ideal equipment you might be lucky to get 1-2 cords a day, especially if the skid is long, so now your down to 10-15 dollars and hour, oh wait you just lost 60 to the truck... so make that about 8-10 an hour, then if you get stuck or break down... well I hope you packed a lunch.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

I've been planning on going with nearly new gear for that reason. Pay now, or pay later. Newer gear has more creature comforts.

Max distance to drag wood is 1/4 mile.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 6, 2014)

1/4 mile is a really long way to drag wood with less then ideal equipment.

If you have the pockets for that kind of payment go for it, just realize new equipment breaks down too.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

I've been thinking of having several landings to work from so most hauls would be 1/8 mile or less.

I'm still crunching numbers. I won't be doing anything until the snow melts.


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## Gologit (Feb 6, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I've been planning on going with nearly new gear for that reason. Pay now, or pay later. Newer gear has more creature comforts.
> 
> Max distance to drag wood is 1/4 mile.



"Nearly new" gear is fine but it's still prone to break downs. It's not "if" it's "when". Even nearly new machinery still requires maintenance. And ask yourself why that "nearly new" machine is for sale in the first place. If it's a repo or leaser you can count on it having been run hard and neglected.

The people here have given you a good idea of what to watch for and they made good points. You very obviously know very little about what you're doing. You have a vision of what you want for a result and that's good but without some skills and some basic practical knowledge you're going to wind up spending more money than you'd planned. A lot more.

A couple of other things to consider...and these come from personal experience. Can you do your own wrenching? Do your own oil changes and filters? Can you make up your own hydraulic hoses? Will you have the start-up cash flow to keep a supply of spares on hand? Do you have fuel storage and will it be delivered or will you have to travel for it? In logging it's not maintenance that costs, it's the downtime that kills you. If you have to run to town for a filter or a hose or fuel you can kiss the profit for that day, and maybe the couple of days, goodbye.


You talked about creature comforts and needing an AC cab. That's fine but fancies don't make you any money. Are you prepared to log, and log _hard_, all day and then work on your machinery at night? Are you willing to log all day, work all night, grab an hours sleep in the pickup and then log the next day again? There are times when that's necessary. On a hobby-logging set up like yours I doubt if you'll have the extra cash to pay a field mechanic.

Just by a rough count you've been given the combined experience of over 200 years in the woods by the people who have answered your posts...in this thread and the others you've started. You need to listen. You need to listen soon, too.. You need to realize that just because you want to do something a certain way, or with a certain kind of equipment, bearing in mind your total lack of experience, you'd be well advised to take advantage of the help that's offered. Don't ask for our opinion on something you know nothing about and then argue with us. That's rude and insulting. It only underscores your lack of experience and makes us reluctant to even bother with you.

There's good help and advice here, free for the taking. Or, just stumble blindly on. Your choice entirely.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 6, 2014)

I've been spinning wrenches in some capacity for the past 30 years. I'm not afraid of getting dirty, and I've built and rebuilt numerous engines. Spent years in the truck maintenance industry, was a helicopter tech in the army, and am currently a machinist with my own shop. I've also been welding for 15 years.

You're right I'm not a logger and have never claimed otherwise.


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## lmbrman (Feb 6, 2014)

sounds like yur all set, just make sure to slam your hand in the truck door before you start the saw, it gives you the right attitude and verbage


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm far from set, but I have some ideas to work with and plenty of time before I'll act on any of them.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

A skid steer in that size of wood is going to struggle. First a skid steer has a very short wheel base and not give you adequate traction. Will it do it? yes... but it will not be efficient. It appears that tracked models of skid steers have a really light footprint. 6 psi for a bobcat T590 with complete rubber tracks, not the chain ones. Obviously you cannot afford a piece of specialty logging equipment so you want to get a machine that can do multiple things. As someone else suggested, go with a tractor. It will pull logs better than a skid steer. Skid steers are designed to lift not pull. So if you hook it on the back end where the engine is and try pulling going forward you are just going to pop wheelies therefore you will be forced to pull in reverse. The skid steers I've sat in, that will get old really fast. A Farmi or similar winch with a good 50 HP tractor will get all you need done. They are designed to pull loads forward. Plus you will be able to buy other attachments such as a brush hog much cheaper than you could buy a similar attachment for a skid steer. You can get proper log forks for a tractor and if you need weight you can buy or build a counterweight. If you plan on having food plots on your property this will become very useful. Use those existing trails you already have. Smaller one or two pass trails are common off the main skid trail. Okay now I remember you mentioning being worried about lots of large trails. Are you planning on doing an uneven-aged (at least 3 cohorts), two-aged (two cohorts), or clearcut everything when it's mature. If you are doing uneven-aged you will have permanent skid trails as you will be entering the stand quite frequently. Similar but less with a two-aged stand. Just wondering but, wouldn't a snow plow be cheaper than a blower? I would think the plow would be faster but I don't know much about moving snow; just that it likes to shut down my logging jobs and I like playing in it.


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## KiwiBro (Feb 7, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> A Farmi or similar winch with a good 50 HP tractor will get all you need done.


I should probably post a few pics or videos of my 50HP, 3.5t, MFWD tractor with 4t winch and forks with log grab. With 300' of cable I can get wood out of most areas that I don't fancy putting the tyres onto. With 3 snatch blocks, it can haul logs that are too big for it to skid if they are not too far away. I bought new and it has broken down more times than I care to elaborate on. Like you wise heads have noted, it's the down time that sucks the most. Latest was about $10 worth of fuel hoses, cost me two days in lost time (why does gear break when you are on the most isolated spots and the repair shops are shut for the weekend or it's a public holiday?). 
Here's where it sucks:
1. only about 1t payload when lifting logs. Even that is not much fun for it when rolling over rough ground.
2. constant risk of spiking tyres/filters, anything where you think sticks would never get to, when rolling over brush/etc.
3. rather too easy to roll it if not really careful. Had it on it's two downhill wheels just the other day when carrying a log out. Was only the other three logs attached to the winch that I was skidding at the time that helped kinda anchor me enough to save me from rolling it. Always nice to learn the limits of myself and gear without breaking anything.
4. had hoped I'd be able to clear and cut a few tracks with it too, but it's a PITA trying to cut dirt and move dirt with it.

On a good day though, it's great. Can drop/top/haul/skid/buck/load or stack enough to pay for everything and then some. Has a heap of other uses too.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

I didn't get into the ground clearance and guarding thing but I looked up some Cat Skid Steers. only 8.6 inches.... not very great. All I can say is a farmi winch isn't meant to be industrial and non industrial crap doesn't last as long... The old man is a retired heavy equipment mechanic and one of his favorite sayings is: " the minute a piece of equipment leaves the assembly line it becomes a piece of junk." Sounds contrary to logic but if you think about it for a while it makes sense...


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## firebrick43 (Feb 7, 2014)

Don't know much about logging but I do know skidsteers don't belong in the woods, he'll really don't belong of a level lot. Seen one flipped from a small pothole, rolled one myself on a slight incline that had a soft spot. Not fun. Much prefer a cat MTL to a skid steer. 

If your going to use a loader to lift decent size logs the tractor need to be bigger than 40 hp. Also tractors with cabs +trees = damaged tractor.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

I've never intended to skid logs with the skidsteer; only load, push tops around, process firewood, level roads, fill fallen tree divots, post hole auger, snowblow, and whatever else needs doing. A tractor can do all of that, but the FEL on a compact tractor with the same size of a skidsteer wouldn't be able to lift much more than my electric winch on the log arch now. They also don't have the turning radius or breakout force.

Plowing snow is cheaper, but has limitations. I could've paid for the machine this winter if I had a snowblower on one. With plowing you have to have somewhere to shove the snow, with blowing it you just have to have somewhere to aim. As the snow builds up along the sides of a road/driveway you encounter more and more resistance to pushing it off the side. Snowblowers don't have that problem. You can also go right up to a garage door with a snowblower, with a plow you have to raise the plow over the snow and then drop it down by the door and pull back to then shove it off to the side. In my neighborhood, there's several tuck-under garages so you can't plow them out efficiently anyway.

Snowblower on a tractor requires driving in reverse - not something I want to do for miles at a time.

Looked up the 440 skidder again to be sure it's what I thought you were talking about. That size machine is exactly what I don't want in my woods. I can pull 20" 16' long red oak with my atv and you'd never know I was there afterwards.


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## Plankton (Feb 7, 2014)

It seems you have your mind set and not changing from all the good advice here. So I wont try but, I'd wager that you are not going to have very much fun or get very much work done with a skidsteer in the woods... They belong on a landscapers jobsite not on a log landing.

Regardless of size skidders can be very low impact given a good operator, and a tractor the same.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

I don't think you understand the workflow I envision is all. I can move trees very easily now. It's only when they're at a landing that I'm log jammed.

I'm not doing anything yet either. It may happen as I first thought, or I may break down and have the clear cuts done commercially. Maybe I'll just build my sawmill and make wood for a while. It's all up in the air. I could come out of sedation on the 24th and have no use of my left hand. Then what? I'm waiting and seeing. I don't even know the quantity of wood I have.


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

The landing solution? Either swarp out a bigger landing area, which is hardly "low impact", hot load the logs, or get something that you can make higher decks with. 

Those are the choices. Playing logger/forester can be complicated. That's why it takes a few years of experience and even some school time to get going.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

5.5 acres isn't enough landing? Space for the logs isn't the problem, it's getting them up off the dirt so they don't rot.

I could put junk trees down and roll the logs up onto those, but then I'd have multiple rows of single height logs all over. Maybe that's not so bad?

To answer the end-goal stand age question: It's primarily a single age stand now. There was some cutting done 20yrs ago in the south 40, so that's got some uneven age areas, and there's some wolf trees in the north 40, so that's a little uneven aged.

The only species I'm looking to eliminate is the aspen which is 45 yrs old or so (10-16" DBH). It's fast approaching the age where breakage loss will exceed new growth. Since I don't want to grow another aspen mix stand, the regen in areas where I remove it won't happen and it's planned as such. The other areas I'm clearing will remain clear or will be planted in something like spruce or pine. Only the 1/2 mile 130' wide strip going N/S, where my house goes, and where any other out-buildings go will be cleared of all trees and planted in clover or some other low growing ground cover. I'll likely nuke them with herbicide after brushmowing them.

In the future, the trees will be selectively cut as needed to produce lumber and firewood. It'll be an on-going harvest, not multiple cuts. I can remove just about any tree I want to with the equipment I have now (sans the wolfs - they're huge and would need to be chopped up). It's not fast enough to make a living at doing it, but it's plenty fast enough to make the tree come out of the forest without any bodily harm.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

It was not clear that you were only using the skid steer to load. It might do it on a level landing. As far as atv vs skidder... get bigger tires. You are probably causing more compaction with that than a small skidder. Contact patch, contact patch. My math may be a little off but say you have a contact patch of about 2.5 square inches per tire on your arch. Both tires equals 60 square inches. If your 20" 16' log weighs say 800 pounds that's 13.33 psi. An average male only exerts 8 psi and many 100,000 pound logging shovels only have 9psi. The majority of your compaction occurs within the first 3 passes and only compacts slightly more after that. So the first one or two passes you make, you are compacting it heavily. A JD 440 will probably have less ground pressure than your atv but not as low as a shovel. It all depends on your soils however. If you have high soil strength and low bulk density then you will be fine. If however you have already hi bulk density soils compacting it more is not going to help establishment in your stand. There is a difference between disturbance and compaction. Compaction can happen and you'll never know it. Disturbance looks horrible but in reality unless its on a slope and acting as a vector for runoff or has water pooling in it it's not a worry.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

There's 20' of elevation change across the entire 1/2 mile N/S border where the main clear cut will be. When I say pancake, I mean it. 

Compaction up there (it's the highest ground on the parcel) doesn't bother me at all either. The main trails on the property have been in use for decades by atvs and snowmobiles, so they've been pummeled long before I showed up. The high ground is all pretty firm. Some areas on the border of the two 40's are poorly drained, so I do have to be mindful of when I work in them. I've had the wetlands guy out to ensure they're not protected as well - it's all good to go from their side.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Selective cutting is a series of cuts called a cutting cycle, Rotation is for clearcuts. So how big are your "clearcuts"? Sounds like they are more like patch cuts which are typically 3-5 acres. Also I never picked up where you said your landing was 5.5 acres before your last post. That is huge! Slowp is not talking about a landing that size. Unless you have another objective other than a landing don't make one that big. A half acre should be sufficient. Are you planning on leaving your timber out there for quite a while till you get enough for a load? I understand that you aren't worried about the time involved but and there is a but. If you let logs sit long enough to begin rotting you've got some other worries such as checking and staining. Hardwood mills absolutely hate checks and you will lose money hand over fist if you don't get them into the mill before they check especially if you have any peelers.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Snowmobiles will not cause any ground compaction unless they've been summer time drag racing which I doubt. I just included the bit about slope for other folks reading this that don't have flat ground. You could still have issues with 20' but I doubt you will. And I'm not talking about main trails... If you read one of my other posts I said use the existing trails!!! I'm talking about when you go off the trail to get a log and drag it back to the main skid trail. As you stated main trails are already compacted, short of going back and fluffing them they will stay compacted and since you are using them no reason to worry about compaction on those trails at all. If you ever decide to abandon a trail and want to rehabilitate it get in there with a small excavator with some ripping teeth and break it up and it will be just like you were never there.


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## Gologit (Feb 7, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> Unless you have another objective other than a landing don't make one that big. A half acre should be sufficient.




Yup, you're starting to sound just like a forester..  Pretty soon you'll be using Patty's favorite response to any request from a logger...NO!

Dammit, where's "the beating your head against a wall" smily?


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

What remains of the original landing is roughly 1/3 acre. It's gotten encroached with new growth since the last time it was used.

What will develop from both sides of that landing is my future rifle range. So that's the reason it'll be so big. It's just a matter of a slice of trees wiped out from one end to the other. Given it's proximity to the rest of the property, it just makes sense to haul everything back there in the end - it's also where the access to the county road is. The other sites will be much smaller, unless I decide to open up some more patches in the south 40.

I know the snowmobiles didn't do anything. Just saying that those trails have seen a lot of use over the years. Much of my neighbor problems revolve around their being shut out after free reign for so long.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Bob

If you don't need it that big why make er right?  I'm not one of those dickhead types that will give you a small shirty landing just because I don't think you need the space.  Now if you are referencing the objectives part... well yeah everything is about your objectives... plus I've had it pounded into my head for many years now... objective in my mind is the bottom line, everything else is a step to that objective... oops I just made that too simple


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

How long the logs will sit is an unknown. That's why I want them off the ground. I could spend 2 months working and end up with a bunch of firewood and not enough wood to call the trucker.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Gologit said:


> Yup, you're starting to sound just like a forester..  Pretty soon you'll be using Patty's favorite response to any request from a logger...NO!
> 
> Dammit, where's "the beating your head against a wall" smily?



Dmmit Bob you changed wording on me now! Well I am a technical forester... Just have one more semester to go then getting permanently hitched to the ball and chain  Anyways I don't tell em no... I just tell em they f$^%ed up and to fix it then shoot the bull for another half hour and leave


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

I thought you said you were going to be hauling it yourself??? Two months in the winter won't be bad but summertime you better move faster than that or you are gonna lose value. There are times you can poke then other times you gotta get your butt in gear and go.


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

I am one of those types. 1/3 an acre is big. Really big. We often would have a road turn out, with trees cut for swing room, and that's it. Of course, steep ground is very limiting. 

I do consider this picture to represent *real* "low impact" logging. It's easy on the ground, and has a reasonable landing size to boot.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Ugh road decking..... shoulda done more cut bank!  okay okay maybe some logs jillpoked in the bank will uh mitigate the shovel ops griping... we need a snoose can smily!!!


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> Dmmit Bob you changed wording on me now! Well I am a technical forester... Just have one more semester to go then getting permanently hitched to the ball and chain  Anyways I don't tell em no... I just tell em they f$^%ed up and to fix it then shoot the bull for another half hour and leave


 
Ah grasshoppah, you are learning to see the light! Of course, just like training dogs and orcas, a reward for doing the right thing works also.
Cookies are the dog treats for loggers. It can breed some resentment though, especially if the boss confiscates the cookies and eats them in front of the crew.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

Depends who buys it. I looked into having a buddy haul it for me, but buying a real log trailer would probably kill any chance of breaking even.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> Depends who buys it. I looked into having a buddy haul it for me, but buying a real log trailer would probably kill any chance of breaking even.



Goose neck flatbed and build some bunks.


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> Ugh road decking..... shoulda done more cut bank!  okay okay maybe some logs jillpoked in the bank will uh mitigate the shovel ops griping... we need a snoose can smily!!!


 
They were happy to be working. That sale was scr...oops incorrectly planned and that portion was supposed to be skidder logged, while the flat portion said to helicopter log it. We did some changes and they offered to use their yarder without a modification in the logging costs.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

What's a typical minimum purchase from a mill? I doubt they'd be too keen on a guy rolling in with 4 logs, right?


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

My favorite photo of fell and buck. Another low impact example.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

slowp said:


> Ah grasshoppah, you are learning to see the light! Of course, just like training dogs and orcas, a reward for doing the right thing works also.
> Cookies are the dog treats for loggers. It can breed some resentment though, especially if the boss confiscates the cookies and eats them in front of the crew.



Yeah I take a more psychological approach... lots of BS and put a snoose in... some guys like hearing they are doing a good job so I try not to rain on the parade. lol

I hear ya Miss P. Just in a poo giving morning lol Hope your day is off to a good start... I should really finish this assignment that's due in an hour or so.... But AS is so much more educational... and fun!!! lol


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> What's a typical minimum purchase from a mill? I doubt they'd be too keen on a guy rolling in with 4 logs, right?



10" yeah they want a good sized load. Veneer guys shouldn't be as much of a worry.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

Tell your instructor you were giving hell to an outsider. Should make up for any missed points.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

She's a Nazi bunny squeezer anyways... not worth the effort. Not hell just good advice.


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## Gologit (Feb 7, 2014)

slowp said:


> I am one of those types. 1/3 an acre is big. Really big. We often would have a road turn out, with trees cut for swing room, and that's it. Of course, steep ground is very limiting.
> 
> I do consider this picture to represent *real* "low impact" logging. It's easy on the ground, and has a reasonable landing size to boot.
> 
> View attachment 332487




I really *need* the head banging smiley. That's low impact alright. It's so small that there's no room to deck anything and we all know that those huge decks with a couple of days worth of wood are just awful and evil.
Please tell me that there was a turn around for the trucks within a 1/4 mile and a slip for the on deck truck...as in one loading and one waiting at all times. No, never mind... on that mini landing the trucks would probably have time to back clear in from the pavement while the boys were getting a load together. I can hear the descriptive phrasing from the truck drivers clear down here.
And no side-rod in his right mind would fail to share the cookies with the crew. Subtle mutiny would rule the day.

BIGGER LANDINGS, please.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

At least I have that part right. I don't want anyone to have to back up down anything.


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## firebrick43 (Feb 7, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I've never intended to skid logs with the skidsteer; only load, push tops around, process firewood, level roads, fill fallen tree divots, post hole auger, snowblow, and whatever else needs doing. A tractor can do all of that, but the FEL on a compact tractor with the same size of a skidsteer wouldn't be able to lift much more than my electric winch on the log arch now. They also don't have the turning radius or breakout force.
> 
> Plowing snow is cheaper, but has limitations. I could've paid for the machine this winter if I had a snowblower on one. With plowing you have to have somewhere to shove the snow, with blowing it you just have to have somewhere to aim. As the snow builds up along the sides of a road/driveway you encounter more and more resistance to pushing it off the side. Snowblowers don't have that problem. You can also go right up to a garage door with a snowblower, with a plow you have to raise the plow over the snow and then drop it down by the door and pull back to then shove it off to the side. In my neighborhood, there's several tuck-under garages so you can't plow them out efficiently anyway.
> 
> ...




Never thought of skidding logs with a skid steer. They don't work well in areas with soft holes, soft dirt, off kilter terrain and such. They also are terrible to maintain (everything crammed into the tub) and lousy visibility which is a BIG deal in the woods. Then you say a skidder is to big but skid steers tear up everything. Skid steers were designed to load and scrape level barns and barn lots of manure. Work ok loading gravel and several other task on level lots with at least a gravel base. Terrible any where else. Their popularity steems from there portability and they will do many jobs , but many half a$$ed. A multi terrain loader works so much better off road, especially leveling out dirt where the skid steer is a poor choice. Around here unless they are working on concrete skid steers are not sold any more for contractors, and light construction. The rubber tracked machines make earth moving and grading child's play due to the lack of pitching movement so inherent with skid steers. Many use the for snow removal just fine to. You realize there is a difference between multi terrain loaders and compact track loaders? The MTL have torsion mounted boggy wheels that follow the ground instead of the solid track frame of the CTL. Still a 60 hp tractor will be far more versitile and stable.

As far as blowing snow with a skid steer , you know you need a very expensive high flow pump added on? 
You can buy a much larger tractor compared to a skid steer. Gear drive instead of chain drive. More traction. Won't tear up the land as much and more stable, better visabilty, better maintenance ease, better support in most areas(mechs hate skid steers). You don't have to have a rear mounted snow blower. Modern tractors can drop the loader in 2 or 3 mins, some now without leaving the seat. A front mount snow blower has a sub frame that goes back to the draw bar. As long as everything is on a level solid surface you drive over the drawbar until it slips on the drawbar. Drop your drawbar pin, hook up you PTO shaft and hydraulic clyinder hose, depending on model there might be two pins in the front but most have a drive into pins now. Five for the best and fifteen for the worst and now you have a much more efficient PTO powered blower instead of a hydraulic blower on the front of a pitching bronco. 

A 50 -60 hp 4wd tractor while not as ideal as a skidder or fowarder is much better for the task your asking. 

So you asked the question of are you nuts. The answer is yes because you ask questions but don't listen to everyone's advise. If you already owned one and money was tight, ok. But when you are going to buy one and still don't listen. Well it sounds like you won't listen to reason so I will step away from the wall I am beating my head against. 

Think of me when you just ran over a stump or rock that you couldn't see and your laying on the side and your head hurts from flailing around in the cage!


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Gologit said:


> I really *need* the head banging smiley. That's low impact alright. It's so small that there's no room to deck anything and we all know that those huge decks with a couple of days worth of wood are just awful and evil.
> Please tell me that there was a turn around for the trucks withing a 1/4 mile and a slip for the on deck truck...as in one loading and one waiting at all times. No, never mind... on that mini landing the trucks would probably have time to back clear in from the pavement while the boys were getting a load together. I can hear the descriptive phrasing from the truck drivers clear down here.
> And no side-rod in his right mind would fail to share the cookies with the crew. Subtle mutiny would rule the day.
> 
> BIGGER LANDINGS, please.



Head bang smilie majig and new snoose smilie to calm the head banger down!


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## Gologit (Feb 7, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> Head bang smilie majig and new snoose smilie to calm the head banger down!


 There you go Wes...now you have the right idea.

My bad, too. I thought you were done with school and I had a greenhorn forester to pick on. Darn.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Haha well nope but I am working for a different outfit again this year... def not as green as most green foresters... although they don't have to be green to pick on em!


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> So you asked the question of am I nuts. The answer is yes because you ask questions but don't listen to everyone's advise. If you already owned one and money was tight, ok. But when you are going to buy one and still don't listen. Well it sounds like you won't listen to reason so I will step away from the wall I am beating my head against.




Ah, but I haven't bought anything yet. 

Cabs on tractors in the woods = broken stuff. No cab in the winter = no work done. So if I have a cab, I'll get A/C too.

We're currently on day 80 of sub zero temps. (ok, so it's half that, but still)

You ever run a snowblower in the wind without a cab? It's no fun!


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## KiwiBro (Feb 7, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> Goose neck flatbed and build some bunks.


You are reading my mind. It's on my wish list. I had to pass on one that was only $1k recently because other gear needed the money more. Pretty gutted about that. Hook the braked rear axle to the remotes and I might just be able to stop it on command rather than the tail wagging the dog on the steep downhills.


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

Gologit said:


> I really *need* the head banging smiley. That's low impact alright. It's so small that there's no room to deck anything and we all know that those huge decks with a couple of days worth of wood are just awful and evil.
> Please tell me that there was a turn around for the trucks withing a 1/4 mile and a slip for the on deck truck...as in one loading and one waiting at all times. No, never mind... on that mini landing the trucks would probably have time to back clear in from the pavement while the boys were getting a load together. I can hear the descriptive phrasing from the truck drivers clear down here.
> And no side-rod in his right mind would fail to share the cookies with the crew. Subtle mutiny would rule the day.
> 
> BIGGER LANDINGS, please.


 
The trucks backed up a hill, maybe a quarter of a mile? from the main road. The main road had few turnouts and the curve that most lowboys had the very rear outside wheels hanging over, or so the drivers said. Everybody was happy to be working at all--that was at the time the market crashed.

That was the same crew that didn't listen when the forester suggested that they had their intermediate support backwards. She stayed down in the brush to see the fail. Hmmmf. They offered her a job at that point. 

It wasn't the side rod, it was the owner--the gypo himself who absconded with the cookies. The crew morale took a nose dive. The same guy told me to NEVER tell his crew they were doing a good job because then they'd demand higher pay.


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## firebrick43 (Feb 7, 2014)

Most smaller tractors can get relatively inexpensive cabs for the or heater housers. Put the on while blowing snow. Come spring they come off. 

But alas I have spent years driving both tractors with and without. Snow blowing without one sucks. Driving a skid steer or tractor in the summer with a cab that the ac failed is worse. Every ten year old skid steer that I have worked on had broken ac and the owners ripped out the glass as they were not going to pay the thousands of dollars the fix it. Also in a skidsteer/MTL you are right there at the action. While wind direction and speed has a certain amount to do with it every snow blower I have operated topically throws a fine dusting of snow no matter the wind direction 2 or 3 feet back on the hood. In a skid steer that your door glass. But this conversation started as thinning woods but as the weight of negatives about your idea has come down you try to change the "requirements" and they still don't hold.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

Sorry I didn't give a dissertation on all that I plan to use the machine for from the start.


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## 1270d (Feb 7, 2014)

Would it be easier to have someone come freeze a road in the winter and cut it for you. Poof, done.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

Of course it would be easier to pay someone else to keep the value of my wood.


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## 1270d (Feb 7, 2014)

ok, didnt mean to pull up your panties, but sometimes the most cost effective way is to hire professionals. we show up, cut your wood and you're left with a check and a whole bunch of extra time you wouldn't have had. of course you probably thought about that.


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## slowp (Feb 7, 2014)

1270d said:


> Would it be easier to have someone come freeze a road in the winter and cut it for you. Poof, done.


 
How do you freeze a road? It seems like this year would be good for that.


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## 1270d (Feb 7, 2014)

A dozer goes through, pushes trees (or stumps) out of the way, roughly leveling as it goes. Some humps windrows and small ruts are ok and help the frost get into the ground. After letting it stiffen up a bit (maybe overnight if its below zero a ways) it gets bladed level and all the frozen chunks tracked into the ground. let it stiffen a bit more and start running pickups and equipment in, and a couple more days and it should be truck ready. 

the stumps can be left in also if they're not real big, just freeze around them. Later, a large dozer makes a pass shearing them all off. (black spruce swamp)

90% of the winter work here is freeze roads.


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## 1270d (Feb 7, 2014)

possibly the OP could freeze his way in with a snowmobile and do his thinning in the winter? not a whole lot of snow in the Brainerd Lakes area usually so a skid loader with tracks might do ok.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 7, 2014)

Only 3 acres is low. My swamp never freezes solid either. It's spring fed and still running beneath the ice right through where the trail is. I'm not sure where the water comes up either. Could be my lot, could be the neighbors.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 8, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> What's a typical minimum purchase from a mill? I doubt they'd be too keen on a guy rolling in with 4 logs, right?



I've taken as little as 2 logs in, not super profitable, but they did buy them. The mills here don't really care how the logs get there as long as they look good, and are in lengths and diameters they can use



Gologit said:


> I really *need* the head banging smiley. That's low impact alright. It's so small that there's no room to deck anything and we all know that those huge decks with a couple of days worth of wood are just awful and evil.
> Please tell me that there was a turn around for the trucks within a 1/4 mile and a slip for the on deck truck...as in one loading and one waiting at all times. No, never mind... on that mini landing the trucks would probably have time to back clear in from the pavement while the boys were getting a load together. I can hear the descriptive phrasing from the truck drivers clear down here.
> And no side-rod in his right mind would fail to share the cookies with the crew. Subtle mutiny would rule the day.
> 
> BIGGER LANDINGS, please.



That post right there is why gologit was missed and why I hang around here all day.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 8, 2014)

Ok jim I'm going to say this once and be done with it, a year or so ago you asked about using a backhoe for logging, we shot ya down on that, then you wanted to build some road across a swamp, we ruined your plans there. Now you want to use a skid steer to log with... among other things. I'm trying really hard not to sound like a jerk but you really should listen to what these folks have to say.

For my money and what I would want to do with 80 acres a mid sized tractor with front loader, detachable backhoe, logging winch, and various implements of destruction would be the #1 ticket, the versatility of a tractor is amazing.

If I where to straight up log it then a small skidder, like my Deere 440a, get in and be done with it in a few monthes, then sell it off and use the money to get a tractor or whatever. You may scoff at the size and "impact" of a skidder but believe me in the right hands you would never know it was in there after just a few monthes. Somewhere I have pictures of a job I did that started life looking more like an amazon jungle, and by the end of summer it looked more like a park. All done with a skidder, and a few small brush fires...

If you stay the course (and I hope your reading this with both eyes and mind open) and go with a skid steer, you likely to spend $10,000 on a machine you hope to pay for itself through logging, that I can almost 100% guarantee will spend more time stuck on or in something than actually working, meanwhile you will probably have some kind of machine payment hanging over your head, not to mention parts, that at that slow of production you will have no chance of making. Take it for what it is.

As far as tractors getting beat up in the woods, that was more of a just be aware that that shiny new New Holland is not going to be very shiny at the end of 6 months of logging. Probably a few dents, and a few broken lights, maybe some JB weld holding the oil pan together, but it will still be running and has a far better chance of being payed off.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

I don't know how to respond that will get you to understand where I'm coming from. Every time I try, you think I'm not listening.

Right now I'm not doing anything. I keep saying that, yet it doesn't register.


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## redprospector (Feb 8, 2014)

If you're going to skid logs, nothing works as well as something that was designed to skid logs.



A skid steer, CTL, or MTL has it's place. Usually found close to the road.



In a pinch, a CTL can be used for other things in the woods. But it's a long, hard, slow go.



If you insist on hauling your own logs, this is what you want. But, there's that long, hard, slow go again. There's no profit in hauling 12 to 1500 bd. ft. very far.




If you plan on getting finished with 85 acres anytime in the next several years, you need to invest in some equipment. 85 acres will not pay for it. You would be money ahead to hire someone to do it, and then go buy a skid steer to play with.

This place ain't changed a bit, has it?


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

Too much collateral damage.

But at least you've finally seen what I planned to use the skidsteer for.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

So, if you were contracted to do a job on a property that had a 7 ton per axle weight limit on the road to it - wouldn't that gouge your profits?


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## redprospector (Feb 8, 2014)

Everything you do will eat into your profits...if there are any profits to begin with. You called this a pre-commercial thinning, and generally I get paid to do a pre-commercial thin, and can have salvage rights to any wood that I want to haul off. If it's really a pre-commercial thin then there won't be many, if any saw logs to haul off, you're just talking firewood. It's hard to make a profit thinning for the firewood.
7 ton per axle limit on the road, you would be way under gunned with a gooseneck and pickup. 4 axles could legally haul 28 tons (56,000 lbs.). No thank you! There are trucks that will fit that bill. I hire other people who have the equipment I need when I need to.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

Well, outside of that road, you'd have to bring a loaded truck down a 20ish degree hill to get out of the property and that crosses two neighbors land where one of them might need to get paid to allow use of their driveway. I'm still working on that issue.

Maybe I do know what I'm up against after all?  I can make 40K selling firewood out of this property on the 425 cords of wood that likely needs removal (that's after expenses). There's a decent chunk of aspen in there too (I haven't calculated how much yet). I have the 5.5 acres and a couple other spots that have good saw wood and maybe veneer grade logs. It's not all little stuff.

I would murder someone if they turned my woods into a "park like" setting. I have foxes living in multiple places on the property and I will go to lengths to ensure they remain. Wiping out my underbrush, even for a couple-few years is unacceptable. Big machinery need not apply. I won't allow it.

So, once again, I don't need to make a profit on this. I only need to recover my expenses.


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## slowp (Feb 8, 2014)

OK, you keep feeding us a little bit at a time. 

First, a terminology lesson. A precommercial thin is just that. It is thinning the trees to get them to a commercial, merchantable size. You will not make money doing a real precommercial thin. You will pay out money, but the intent is to get the remaining trees to a better size. We precommercial thin small Christmas tree sized trees. There is no value in them. They are left on the ground to rot. 

Next thing. Don't log it at all if you don't want the underbrush smooshed for even a year. Don't touch it. It isn't possible to skid logs with anything except a helicopter and not affect the underbrush. Well, maybe if you have six feet of snow that will hold up, but then you'll have to shovel out the trees to cut or you'll have 6 foot stumps and I have a feeling you aren't going to want to shovel out trees.

The only thing to do is to pre plan. LAY OUT YOUR UNIT BEFORE CUTTING ANY TREES. Pick out where you don't mind the brush getting damaged. Flag it in. Fall (not drop) your trees at an angle, butts towards your skid trail so you can pull the logs out. Pull the logs. If you drive up to every log with whatever your skid steer has, you are going to smash more brush. STAY on the skid trails. We terrible federal agency people plan on allowing 10% of the ground to be "disturbed" by skid trails and give an additional 5 to 10% disturbance for landings. That's in the BMPs (Best Management Practices). Does your forester friend have a little manual on Michigan BMPs? 

I do not think your corduroy road through the swamp would hold up to skidding logs at all. You might be able to get a forwarder over it. I've never seen logs skidded over what looks like a semi-floating little road of logs laid out. Let me know if and how it holds up if you do take log turns across it. WE used to put more than a single layer of logs into a creek to build a trucking road over it, but dirt and rocks were bladed over the deck of logs so it would stay put. That's a log culvert and the Forest Service doesn't allow them anymore. Think of a deck of logs going into a ditch to bring it level. That's what was done. The logs are pulled out after the need for the road is over. 

Also, I don't understand how you can have a rifle range, if you want wildlife to hang out on your place. I know they get accustomed to new things, but shooting would tend to make for nervous wildlife. 

Have I left out any realities of logging here? I don't know much about marketing. 

I'd suggest you get a real LOCAL genuine operations savvy forester and logger to walk the area with you. Pay them. You are already spending time trying to weasel out info from us, and not liking what you are hearing. Be humble. Forestry and logging are more than just going in and wrasseling trees out of the woods. There is some finesse and skill to it and you don't have that yet.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

I asked what I thought was a pretty straight forward question about using a skidsteer to move wood. I got a lot of good reasons not to use a OTT track system and to pony up for a MTL instead. Then I got a bunch of comments about how I'd never make any money doing it and how I'm nuts to think I would, then I had someone actually prove that I could break even doing exactly what I said I was going to try - yet I still get talked down to for wanting to do it.

My trail is just that - a trail. I will never run anything over 10,000# across it. It's built light because there's a chance I'll have to tear it out. That path is the first access which doesn't involve winching a 800# atv for at least 50 feet to get to high ground, and it took a lot of walking 30-50# hunks of wood hundreds of feet to do it. By your own ground pressure numbers, I should have no problem rolling a MTL across it. From there, I can use that to move bigger logs, rock, and sand to fill in the base if I end up making my driveway there. I have permission to do that, and I have silvicultural exemption to do it without permission, but then I'd have to remove it afterwards - something I don't want to do. If I put my driveway there, I will have to pay wetland bank credits and would rather not have another access into the property if it can be avoided.

Rifle range is for my personal use. The critters are fine with me shooting elsewhere on the property. I have two dens not far from where I shoot rifles now.

Pre-commercial is the right term. I have crop trees I want to release. Lots and lots of them. My stand is to the point the canopy is closed in several areas with 15+ DBH trees. I want to give them a boost and get them up to 20-24 before I croak or cut them for use as lumber or possibly sell them as veneer. I'm looking at 24" x 16' oak logs as my basis for wanting a skidsteer MTL capable of 3,000# lift, because that's what I expect to be the max typical load put on the mill. I can roll anything bigger up ramps if need be.

I'm friends with everyone at the county. My assessor is even trying to help navigate affordable access to the county roads for me. He also helped put me in the cheapest land classification for taxes.

Btw, the platted road through the swamp was vacated by initiation of my neighbor on the lake side a year ago. I mentioned wanting the township to build it at the hearing, and they removed it instead. Turned out they're not too thrilled with the prospect of filling it in either.


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## slowp (Feb 8, 2014)

Then go for it. Let us know how it turns out. Apparently you know something we don't or are able to tweak the system. Please, show us your progress and your methods.
Maybe we can learn from you. Why aren't you posting the video of your corduroy road? Perhaps we could learn construction tips from that? 

Why did you even start this thread? Since you have, I challenge you to post pictures of your logging, and give us a detailed account...whether it works out or not. 
In fact, maybe we should dredge up this thread once a month to see if you can add anything of interest. Bye bye and happy hobby logging.


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## redprospector (Feb 8, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> Well, outside of that road, you'd have to bring a loaded truck down a 20ish degree hill to get out of the property and that crosses two neighbors land where one of them might need to get paid to allow use of their driveway. I'm still working on that issue.
> 
> Maybe I do know what I'm up against after all?  I can make 40K selling firewood out of this property on the 425 cords of wood that likely needs removal (that's after expenses). There's a decent chunk of aspen in there too (I haven't calculated how much yet). I have the 5.5 acres and a couple other spots that have good saw wood and maybe veneer grade logs. It's not all little stuff.
> 
> ...


 
A "20ish degree hill" is a 37ish % grade, probably not advisable to bring a "loaded" truck down that. You'd be money ahead to skid your wood down that one, for your own safety.
Maybe you don't know either. 40k after expenses on 425 cords? Without disturbing the "underbrush"? I think you'd better go over those numbers again.
If it's not all little stuff, it's not "pre-commercial" it's just a thinning project, or might be classed as a stewardship program. slowp would be more qualified to say what type of project it would be classified than me, I'm just a dumb old thinning contractor.
You seem to have already made up your mind as to what you're going to do. I'm sure that with perseverance you can "get-er-done". 
It's really no skin off of my nose if you make money, recover your expenses, or loose your butt. I've given you my opinion so take it for what it's worth to you. The main thing is that you be safe and don't hurt or kill yourself in the process. Good luck, and be careful.


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## lmbrman (Feb 8, 2014)

What's that saying, a picture is worth a thousand words? Does it work the other way, that if you use enough words a picture forms?

If this site were not so durn slow I would start a poll on this project. I think there will never be as many sticks to the landing as words used planning it.

You show me otherwise and I'll be proud of you Jim, but its just too much talk for the job at hand.

be safe and good luck


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

I had a long response addressing everything, but I just deleted it.

Thanks for the help.


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## Gologit (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm out of here too. You asked, we answered, you argued. That's enough of this foolishness for me.


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## treeslayer2003 (Feb 8, 2014)

oh, iv met landowners like this before........good luck buddy yer gonna need it.


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## Jim Timber (Feb 8, 2014)

If I can produce 40 cords of firewood a year, I'll be fine.


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## slowp (Feb 8, 2014)

Enough! Off with you to the Firewood Forum! Shoo!


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## lfnh (Feb 8, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> If I can produce 40 cords of firewood a year, I'll be fine.


 
Betcha cant.


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## bitzer (Feb 8, 2014)

Damn, and I had all kinds of fun stuff to say. At least post a pic of some decked wood in a few months... Maybe a buyer handing you cash or a check in the picture? With a hand shake?


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 9, 2014)

Alright fella. You've talked with a bunch of professional loggers and a few foresters. You don't know Sh*t from shinola about forestry or logging.

For the record slowp is right and you are an idiot.

Here's a suggestion, don't come back.

Oh, and I deleted all the mean stuff I was gonna say about you too.


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## treeslayer2003 (Feb 9, 2014)

see, the thing is he knows more about forestry than all the loggers and foresters put together....to him we just destroyers. perception is not fact. plenty of well intentioned folks have totally messed up their woods thinking they know best......but what do I know.


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## Gologit (Feb 10, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> see, the thing is he knows more about forestry than all the loggers and foresters put together....to him we just destroyers. perception is not fact. plenty of well intentioned folks have totally messed up their woods thinking they know best......but what do I know.



You know more than he does. I'm just glad I'm not working for that guy. I've taken on some "homeowner" jobs in the past and most of the people were pretty sensible once we found a way to communicate. A lot of times their expectations were unreasonable but when they understood how things really worked and what kind of results we could come up with everything smoothed right out.
I had one job that I fiddled around with off and on for over five years. The landowners were city folk who were trying to improve 180 acres of old second growth. They did it right and hired a consulting forester who helped them plan their land use and gave them a good guideline for what they wanted to achieve. I'd go in and do the falling and skidding and they hired somebody to do the cleanup. We did it in patches...fifteen or twenty acres at a time. Some of the logs were milled onsite for their buildings and some went for firewood. The land owners learned a lot and they were happy with the results once they realized how things really worked in the woods.
I don't mind working with people who don't know much if they're willing to learn and adjust their thinking to the realities of the situation . I admire what the OP is trying to do but he's green, unrealistic and he doesn't listen to good advice. That's a bad combination.


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## oregon steel (Feb 10, 2014)

To go in and cut one or two cords a week, using personal equipment (chainsaw, trailer, pickup) seems doable. If 40 cords a year will get you where you want to be, go for it. Start with your range and work out from there. With 80 acres it may seem like nothing is getting done. I you need it all done at once, hire it done.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 10, 2014)

Bob 

Sounds like they had a very good forester. Was it all cut or did they have some stem retention other than wildlife trees? My dads place is presenting some interesting challenges as there's alder and some really nice second growth DF that needs CTd. The fields are gonna get afforested here in the two to 5 years. We have a bean grower interested in a 5 yr contract. It's paying pretty good and it will get some nitrogen in the soil plus there will be a cover crop of oats planted after fall. Good well have the site prep done for free and won't have compacted soil. Bad is the elk are gonna be used to that oat cover crop and come back in to find a bunch of seedlings... I'm contemplating doing a two aged stand in the DF and there will be patch cuts of sorts in the alder. Not sure if I'm gonna do natural regen or plant yet for the alder. The big ole spruces I've convinced dad to take at some point as they are wolfy and aren't doing a thing with spruce weevil in em. The bigger DF I think we'll just leave. Low brushy spots I'm planning on clearing out and either planting Cedar in or seeding with clover for deer and elk. The more experience and education I get the more possibilities I see.

Wes


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 10, 2014)

Oh and when I say big DF I'm talking 40 inchers. Got a swell butt 54 that needs to go though... dead top. Most likely Ips beetle.


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## Gologit (Feb 10, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> Bob
> 
> Sounds like they had a very good forester. Was it all cut or did they have some stem retention other than wildlife trees? My dads place is presenting some interesting challenges as there's alder and some really nice second growth DF that needs CTd. The fields are gonna get afforested here in the two to 5 years. We have a bean grower interested in a 5 yr contract. It's paying pretty good and it will get some nitrogen in the soil plus there will be a cover crop of oats planted after fall. Good well have the site prep done for free and won't have compacted soil. Bad is the elk are gonna be used to that oat cover crop and come back in to find a bunch of seedlings... I'm contemplating doing a two aged stand in the DF and there will be patch cuts of sorts in the alder. Not sure if I'm gonna do natural regen or plant yet for the alder. The big ole spruces I've convinced dad to take at some point as they are wolfy and aren't doing a thing with spruce weevil in em. The bigger DF I think we'll just leave. Low brushy spots I'm planning on clearing out and either planting Cedar in or seeding with clover for deer and elk. The more experience and education I get the more possibilities I see.
> 
> Wes



It sounds like you have a good plan for that ground. That's the point that we were all trying to make with Timber Jim...get a good professional plan and listen to well schooled advice. Oh well.

The people I was talking about left quite a bit of timber. We were lucky in that it was one of those rare good mixes of forester, landowner, and logger. People who could communicate...and compromise if need be. It turned out to be one of my favorite jobs.
They're retired dot-com refugees from the Bay Area but they're totally without all the pretentious attitude and urban baggage that so many people like that carry to the country with them. They look at that piece of ground as their children's inheritance and they're keeping a very light footprint. I admire what they're doing. We did a lot of walking and they explained what they wanted. We found ways to do most of it and what we couldn't do we found alternatives for.
I spent about five years off and on up there. I'd cut a little and they'd mill it or turn it into firewood and I'd go back and cut a little more. We took the absolute cream in df, pine, and cedar. Old second growth and some passed over old growth, beautiful stuff. Most of the buildings were built with the timber milled on site. The forester would pick the trees based on what the owner wanted. I'd fall and buck to what the guy running the mill needed and do the skidding.
LOL...they started off wanting to do the skidding themselves with a little Ford 9N but they figured out pretty quick that might not work on 41 ft df and pine. I had a D-6 that wasn't doing much so I took it up there. They owners did some hobby skidding on the small stuff on gentle ground and had some fun with it. The mill guy was a pretty fair cat-skinner and when I wasn't using the 6 he cut pads with it and did some pond and road work.
They haven't had anything cut in a couple of years now and they may not cut much more at all. That's fine.
I stopped in and talked to them late last year and they're pretty happy with the way things turned out.


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2014)

Gologit said:


> they're pretty happy with the way things turned out.



In the end, that's the most important thing. It means that everybody did a good job.


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2014)

madhatte said:


> In the end, that's the most important thing. It means that everybody did a good job.




Getting paid helps, too.


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## Steve NW WI (Feb 13, 2014)

O dear, I just read this whole thread.

Jim - I believe you've mentioned neck/back issues before? Bouncing around in a SSL/CTL ain't gonna do that one tiny bit of good. It's hard on guys with a good back in rough ground.

You've gotten some good advice, whether you wanted it or not. If you HONESTLY believe you can cause less disturbance with a skidsteer/CTL/ATV with trailer than a guy with years or decades of experience running a skidder, by all means, get to it, and take lots of pics. I did some hobby logging last fall with a guy that runs a big skid loader hours a day in his tree transplanting business, and we still made a mess, albeit one that he and I both thought was acceptable. The thread is still here somewhere, but I suspect linkbucks killed the pics. Someday when I have time, I'll try to put them back, still have em on my computer. His marketing didn't work as well as the cutting, and the logs are still laying roadside today.

No, slowp, I ain't moving this to firewood. 10 guys there would repeat the same thing that's been said over and over here already and be ignored/argued with, then one rocket surgeon will tell him it'll work great, and that he should be able to double that 95$/cord profit  then we'll be off to the same old races again. I suspect it'll die here just as easily.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 13, 2014)

Move it anyway, should be High larry us...


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## redprospector (Feb 13, 2014)

Shhhhhhh.
Hear that gurgling sound?
Let it die fella's, just let it die.


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## Gologit (Feb 13, 2014)

redprospector said:


> Shhhhhhh.
> Hear that gurgling sound?
> Let it die fella's, just let it die.



Yup.


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## KiwiBro (Mar 10, 2014)

Not before Steve clarifies if he was talking face cord, full cords, ricks, thrown or stacked m3.


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