# UNOFFICIAL 2-Stroke OIL Brand Specification/Standard Thread



## one.man.band (Oct 13, 2011)

There are 3 different 2-stoke oil standard rating systems in use, (that i am aware of). Rating systems rate oil by passing certain tests. The 3 organizations which rate oils are as follows:

API - FC (one rating only)

or

ISO-L EGB (good); ISO-L EGC (better); ISO-L EGD (best)

or

JASO FB (good); JASO FC (better); JASO FD (best)

I cannot gather all the information by myself. If anyone is interested please feel free to contribute. Don't want to make it a comment thread.. but just facts. When thread has exhausted itself, i will summarize the replies on a single post. Goal is to separate hype and BS.

List your pre-mix oil brand of choice... and what Oil Standard Spec. it meets (if any). Also add if it has fuel stabilizer. All info is on oil bottle/jug label. If it's not listed on label, it means has not been tested for whatever reason.

Example: Echo-Powerblend (OLD) w/fuel stabilizer.
Meets: JASO FC (M345) and ISO L-EGB

Example: Craftsman #7136555 w/fuel stabilizer.
Meets: API-TC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Updated 10/14/11 from responses. In alphabetical order:

Amsoil Saber Professional: API-TC; ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD

Craftsman #7136555 w/fuel stabilizer. API-TC

Echo-Powerblend (NEW) w/fuel stabilizer. Exceeds: ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD (M345)

Echo-Powerblend (OLD) w/fuel stabilizer. Meets: ISO-L-EGB; JASO FC (M345)

Husqvarna LS Synthetic: ISO--L-EGD; JASO FD

Mobil 1 Racing 2T Fully Synthetic: API-TC; ISO-L-EGC; ISO-L-EGD; JASO FC; JASO FD; TISI Meets SAE Grade1&2

Quaker State Conventional: No stabilizer. API-TC; JASO FA; JASO FB

Pennzoil: API-TC

Stihl Conventional (orange bottle): W/stabilzer. No ratings noted.

Stihl HP Ultra Full Synthetic (silver bottle): W/stabilzer. API TC; API TC+; JASO FB

Tanaka Perfect Mix: ISO-L-EGD; JASO FC

Woodland Pro-Full Synthetic: W/stabilzer. ISO-L-EGD; JASO FC; JASO FD


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## blsnelling (Oct 13, 2011)

I would also like to see if they're cat I, II, or III.


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## Bob Wright (Oct 13, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> Goal is to separate hype and BS.


 
This should be 14 pages within a day or so 
Mine is Royal Purple HC 2-C mixed with cheap ethanol gas at 33 1/3 to 1...Bob


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## leeha (Oct 13, 2011)

Amsoil Saber Professional 100-1 premix
ISO-L-EGD, JASO FD, API TC
I mix at 50-1



Lee


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## tilenick (Oct 13, 2011)

I saw an oil that said use for all 2-stroke engines at 16:1 32:1 40:1 50:1 and just mix the bottle with one gallon of gas. does this ring true even with older saws?


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## TK (Oct 13, 2011)

I prefer the usage of 2-stroke/1-cycle oil in the proper ratio. 

Cycle (n) A periodically repeated sequence of events

I still believe that a 2-stroke is a 1-cycle, and a 4-stroke is a 2-cycle engine :hmm3grin2orange:


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## dave_376 (Oct 13, 2011)

tilenick i just read my bottle of Echo oil and it said mix at 50:1 and it may be used in any 2cycle equipment even if it was rated for a different ratio because of their special formulation. I don't think I would do that unless it was for another Echo product. 
PS all my equipment is Echo except for a Jonsered brush cutter


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## Bob Wright (Oct 13, 2011)

tilenick said:


> I saw an oil that said use for all 2-stroke engines at 16:1 32:1 40:1 50:1 and just mix the bottle with one gallon of gas. does this ring true even with older saws?


 
Yes the oil sets the mix. All of my old Echos are marked either 16:1 or 20:1 and i run up to 40:1 in them...Bob


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## tilenick (Oct 13, 2011)

It just seems to me that the saw engine is made the same as it was years ago and they all ought to run at a comparable mix ,if it is a newer oil. I have a couple stihls 50:1 a craftsman 40:1 and 2 poulan 306A's 32:1 and I am tired of the different mix cans and would like to have one tried and tested gas/oil mixthat will work in the saws that I have. But if not, the three or four cans It is.


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## Edge & Engine (Oct 13, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> There are 3 different 2-stoke oil standard rating systems in use, (that i am aware of). Rating systems rate oil by passing certain tests. The 3 organizations which rate oils are as follows:
> 
> API - FC (one rating only)
> 
> ...


 
Echo PowerBlend oil is now certified JASO FD and ISO-L-EGD .


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## spacemule (Oct 13, 2011)

TK said:


> I prefer the usage of 2-stroke/1-cycle oil in the proper ratio.
> 
> Cycle (n) A periodically repeated sequence of events
> 
> I still believe that a 2-stroke is a 1-cycle, and a 4-stroke is a 2-cycle engine :hmm3grin2orange:


 
In this case, the cycle is piston starts moving, piston stops moving. It's called a 2 cycle for a reason. In the end, it's merely semantics, and not worth discussing.


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## dave76 (Oct 13, 2011)

Was running Tanaka perfect mix one mix 50:1, it's ISO-L-EGD & JASO FC, hey I got for free for while. But I have since switched to Lowes, Husqvarna LS synthetic 50:1, this oil is ISO L-EGD, JASO FD. Let it be known, I did use the Tanaka oil for a few years and never ever had an issue with it mixed at 50:1. Just have to get it through Grainger, Lowes is much more accsessable. I did notice a bit less smell with the synthetic Husky oil. Both have stabilizers in em.


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## shelbythedog (Oct 13, 2011)

Stihl HP Ultra-full synthetic (silver bottle)
Contains stabilizers
JASO FB
API TC/TC+

Stihl HP-Conventional (orange bottle)
Contains stabilizers
No ratings noted

Woodland Pro-Full Synthetic
Contains stabilizer
JASO FC/FD
ISO-EGD

Quaker State-Conventional
No stabilizer
JASO FA&FB
API TC


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## s sidewall (Oct 13, 2011)

I use Echo Power Blend and the specs :Exceeds ISO-L-EGD and JASO M345/FD requirements, per whats on the bottles that I buy.


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## w8ye (Oct 13, 2011)

I use this stuff at 32:1 in everything gasoline two stroke for years. Doesn't have a rating printed on it?


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## shelbythedog (Oct 13, 2011)

w8ye said:


> I use this stuff at 32:1 in everything gasoline two stroke for years. Doesn't have a rating printed on it?
> 
> Anything in the small print on the rear label? If Quaker State is rated I would think Pennzoil would be, too.


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## Sprintcar (Oct 13, 2011)

Whatever Wally world has on sale.

Gary will be along shortly to us what we is doing wrong mixing oils.


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## w8ye (Oct 13, 2011)

The one I use is the bottle in the middle or the 8oz size. It says nothing about rating on the back?

The 16oz bottle on the right talks about being TC


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## shelbythedog (Oct 13, 2011)

w8ye said:


> The one I use is the bottle in the middle or the 8oz size. It says nothing about rating on the back?
> 
> The 16oz bottle on the right talks about being TC


 
In the last line of the first paragraph, on the middle bottle, it says that the oil "meets API Service Category TC".


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## w8ye (Oct 13, 2011)

You are correct. I see it now that you pointed it out.

Most of my model airplane gasoline engine friends use Red Line

My Chainsaw friends run Stihl Ultra


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## eyolf (Oct 13, 2011)

API TC: No longer a valid rating; there no longer exists an agency to oversee this standard, so you could put this label on a jug of rendered bear lard if you wanted to.

JASO FA: (Japan Auto Standards Org) weakest standard, applies generally to a mineral (dinosaur bones) oil with a very basic metallic detergent added.
JASO FB: a little better with some quality control aimed at smoke and deposit control; generally by increasing additives and closer control over choosing particular isomers
JASO FC: generally a semi-synthetic product. The FC standard is largely about smoke control and deposits also; better lubrication is a benefit achieved along with the use of synthetics
JASO FD: Newest standards, most likely contain group IV and V synthetics along with metallic detergents, anti-wear agents, etc.

ISO L EGB, EGC, EGD: similar to above, except overseen by International Standards Org.

Metallic detergents: generally highly polar compounds like Calcium or magnesium sulfionate
are used in air-cooled engines. They actually act as antiwear barriers at temps that break down oil films as well as prevent deposits from forming thick layers by increasing the liklihood that the oil will burn and be carried away in the exhaust. Outboard-grade oils contain hydrazine and phosphate additives that chosen to keep partly decomposed oils moving on through and out because 350 deg cylinder-wall temps aren't hot enough to burn the oil away. 

The reason not to use outboard oils in an air-cooled motor are that combustion heat may strip some of the hydrogen atoms from the oil chains leaving producst that resemble waxes, tars, and plastics. being that there are no friction-modifying metallic salts to aid in lubrication and that the phosphate detergents aren't able to mobilize the thick black residue, life will be short. Air-cooled oils in an outboard are similarly bad because the low-molecular wieght oils will only partly burn, but the remaining heavier oils won't be. Black sticky carbon deposits will ensue, as well as ring-groove packing and subsequent loss of seal. Soon blow-by will destroy the oil film and we all know what comes next.

Both types of oils may contain Zinc antiwear agents, anti-oxidants (shelf-life" pour-point modifiers, etc).

Group I oils: Highly saturated (hydrogen) solvent extraction or possibly hydrocracked "synthetics" (some countries disallow the term here) with fairly high sulfur content
Group II oils: (similar, except low sulfur)
Group II: similar, low-sulfur, but high molecular weight oils
Group IV: mainly polyalphaolefins. These are very useful as an additive to control temperature-induced
changes in viscosity and lubricity; they are "flexible" and resist shear.
Group V: Esters, Di-esters, Glycols, etc. 

Group I, II, and III are highly refined products but these molecules do exist in nature. IV and V are lab creations designed to have specific properties; they are very expensive and are probably never used alone, rather to enhance products made of less expensive base stocks. 

The Pennz air-cooled multi=purpose oil is either the best of both worlds, or the worst, depending on your POV. It is basically a mineral oil with a heavy dose of botn air and water-cooled additives. It is throughly "adequate", but not anywhwere near optimal.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 13, 2011)

Do you all really want to learn about oil? Yes you say. This came from BITOG forum, it's long but worth the read.

Part 1.

We get asked many oil related questions every day and decided to put some of the most frequently asked ones to an Oil Expert called John Rowland. He has been the Chief R&D Chemist for Fuchs/Silkolene for many years and previously developed ahead of their time ester based oils for the RR Jet industry. What he doesn’t know about oil is not worth knowing in our opinion!

Even though some of these topics may have been covered before here, this post is well worth reading.

1) How is an oil manufactured; transformed from the black sludge that comes out of the ground, into the nectar-like substance we pour into our cars and bikes?

Crude oil, which is usually very thin, (contrary to popular belief!) is distilled into light and heavy fractions, with several intermediate ones. (The evil left-overs are used to fuel the 15 million cc/40RPM diesels in the giant oil tankers that bring the crude to the refinery.)

The lighter fractions, usually more than 90% of the original crude, are converted into petrol and diesel. Some of the heavier oils, (still dark and smelly!) go through several processes to clean them up and remove wax. Out of about a dozen oily products 4 clear, bright amber oils are commonly used to blend modern engine and gear oils. These are roughly equivalent to SAE 10, 20, and 30 engine rating and 140 gear rating. Oil refineries also produce all sorts of gases and chemical compounds which can be used to build up 'tailor made' lubricants: synthetics!

2) What are the most important substances added to the refined base oils? What do they do?

In the Dark Ages, engines used blends of refined mineral oils 'straight', with nothing added. The trouble was, even in the slow-revving engines of 80 years ago the oil didn't last very long, and the engines didn't either.

Black sludge and corrosion were the killers, and both were tackled in the 1950s with detergent and antioxidant chemicals. (When I was a lad, I used to visit a mate of my Dad's who rebuilt the very popular side-valve Ford engines. The thick [censored] inside these things was unbelievable! The valve tappets were moving in holes in solid blocks of carbon!) The detergents washed the carbon from fuel combustion off the bores and out of the ring grooves, and at the same time reduced bore and piston ring corrosion.

The antioxidants stopped the oil reacting with oxygen in the air, which cut acid sludge formation which in turn reduced corrosion and oilway blockages. Some antioxidants had the useful side-effect of reducing wear as well. This added up to longer oil and engine life, both improving about three times. (Straight oil had to be changed every 1000miles, and even lightly-stressed engines running on it were ready for a full overhaul at 15-20,000.) OK, I admit there were design and metallurgical improvements, but they needed that vital 'liquid component' to be fully effective.
Later came dispersant compounds which held the carbon as tiny particles in the oil which didn't settle out anywhere, and slipped through the oil filter as if it wasn't there.(Solid bits in well-used modern oil are about 1/1000mm across; the pores in an oil filter are at least 15 times bigger.)
The other big problem with oil used to be cold starting. It was usual to have SAE 20 Winter or 'W' grades, and SAE 30 or 40 Summer grades, and even the so-called Winter types would defeat the starter in serious cold weather. Unfortunately, oil is very thick when it's cold, and very thin when it's hot. To have an oil thick enough to look after a hard working engine, you had to use a grade which was too thick when it was cold.

The answer was (and is) multigrade! What was needed was an oil that behaved like a 20 'W' grade in the cold, but only thinned down to a SAE 40 or 50 when really hot; yes, 20W/50! This can be done by mixing thin oil with thick polymers based on plastics and synthetic rubbers; these don't do much in the cold, but as the oil warms up they unwind and thicken it up to some extent. The oil still thins down, but not as quickly as a polymer-free or monograde type.

Multigrades started to catch on around 1960, but these pioneer types were easily ruined by mechanical shear effects, more so in gearboxes than engines. These days the better quality polymers resist shear even in combined engine/transmissions, so it is essential to use good quality shear-resistant types in a gearbox fed by the engine (such as the traditional mini!), which gives its oil a hard time in both engine and gearbox.

Incidentally, there are large amounts of these additives and polymers in there, it's not just 'a little bit of this, a little bit of that'! A good quality mineral 10W/40 can be 80% base 20% additive chemistry, and guess which is the expensive ingredient!

3) What are the differences, in layman's terms, between mineral, semi-synthetic and fully-synthetic engine oil? (In terms of structure and performance.)

Before we get into details, the first thing to realise that there is no chalk and cheese difference between mineral and synthetic based oils. After all, the chemical compounds which make mineral engine oils so much better are themselves synthetic.
Synthetic lubricant bases are stepwise improvements on mineral oil, with more desirable properties and fewer undesirable ones. The second important point is that there's no one thing called 'synthetic'! There are several different types of synthetic lubricant, and to say something like: 'the Supergrunt GTI TURBO must have a full synthetic' is meaningless unless the 'expert' explains what sort of synthetic he means.

Equally, to imply that dreadful things will happen if the 1970 RV8 is run on anything other than good’ ole mineral oil is ridiculous. It may not need a 2007 synthetic, but it isn't going to come to any harm if the owner uses a 2007 synthetic!

The most basic type of synthetic is really a special mineral oil. Known as 'hydrocracked' bases, these are made in oil refineries by putting certain types of mineral fraction through special processing, so they cost more than the usual mineral types but not much more. They are useful because they resist evaporation at high temperatures. Although used for years for genuine technical reasons, they are now popular with marketing men because the magic sexy word 'synthetic' can legitimately be printed on the label without spending much on the oil inside the can!

Yes, all low-cost 'synthetics' contain anything from a few percent to 20 percent (i.e. 'semi-synthetic') of special mineral oil. Using fairly simple chemical compounds or gases from oil refineries or other sources, it is possible to 'synthesise' or build up tailor-made lubricant molecules which have very desirable characteristics, such as great resistance to cold, heat, evaporation losses or excessive thinning as they get hot. These are the true synthetics, and the two that are used in engine oils are PAOs (poly alpha olefins) and esters.

Neither is cheap! PAOs are related to mineral oils, and are the ideal carriers for all the chemical compounds used in mineral oils. Because they do not gel at very low temperatures, all genuine 0W-something oils have to be based on PAOs to pass the 0W test at a sub-arctic -35C.

Esters were originally made for jet engine lubricants, and to this day all jet oils are ester-based. Although similar in performance to PAOs, they have a valuable extra trick: they are good lubricants and help to protect metal surfaces. Esters help with transmission and valve train lubrication. 100% fully synthetic oils are actually quite rare, probably because they are very expensive to make, and even more expensive to buy.
Even so, an ester/PAO with a very shear stable multigrade polymer is the ultimate oil for high output engines that are worked hard, which means racing.

4) How does oil work? What gives it its lubricating properties? How does it 'cling on' to surfaces?

A plain bearing such as a main or big end, when spinning fast is 'floating' on a relatively thick film of oil. The metal surfaces literally do not touch. The high velocity drives a wedge of oil between the two surfaces, and the oil film supports the load, just like a water skier skimming over that very thin lubricant, water. But, when the engine slows down and stops the bearing shells drop through the film and touch the crankpins, just as the skier sinks in up to his neck when he lets go of the rope.

It is where there is metal to metal contact that lubrication, that is, something to reduce wear and seizure, is needed. On gear teeth, valve components, and piston rings at top or bottom dead centre, there is no high speed rotation to generate 'wedge' support, so the oil films are very thin, and some metal contact is inevitable. Some fluids, even if they look thick and oily, are completely hopeless! Very pure mineral oils, and some synthetics fall into this group. They depend entirely on chemical load-carrying compounds which react with metal at high pressures and temperatures to provide very thin protective films which prevent micro-welds where metal surfaces come into contact.

Detergent and antioxidant chemicals often double up as anti-wear agents. The odd ones out are esters. These are attracted to metal by electrostatic forces and cling on when surfaces are forced into contact.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 13, 2011)

Part 2.

Detergent and antioxidant chemicals often double up as anti-wear agents. The odd ones out are esters. These are attracted to metal by electrostatic forces and cling on when surfaces are forced into contact.

5) What are (or can be) the main differences between oils of the same type, i.e. what's the difference between a 'good' and a 'bad' oil?

It all comes down to honesty really.....so beware! A good oil is what it claims to be on the can. 10W/40? Does it really pass the cold test at -25C? Quite a few I've tested do not. There is usually an API spec quoted, such as API SH or SL. These are car-based, and a good basic quality guide. If absent, leave it on the shelf, and avoid lawyer-speak:
'meets the requirements of....' or 'recommended (by whom?) for use in....'.

Then there is the 'synthetic' minefield! Provided the price hasn't been pushed up by shipping an average oil 5000miles from the West coast of the USA, you get what you pay for. The best performance oils are made in the more developed European countries, but low price buys the cheap 'modified mineral' synthetic and not much of it, with a poor multigrade polymer. As is so often the case, quality follows cost.

6) What are the likely consequences of using poor-quality oil?

Usually, these are fairly long term, except in racing. Think of the oil as a liquid component, and poor oil as a cheap pattern spare. In a road car long-term reliability and performance retention (i.e. acceleration figures below new spec., fuel and oil consumption above) are the casualties. Particularly in a high performance or racing car,the effects can be more immediate and catastrophic.

7) Some oil companies have run advertising campaigns that imply their products have special, unique qualities. Can these adverts be taken seriously?

Yes and no! Generally adverts in magazines are honest, with marketing-speak terms such as ‘Magnatec’ and ‘Electrosyntec’ really being code words for esters, which are particularly beneficial in performance engine oils. No manufacturer has any unique ‘secret’, so it’s all down to providing the best possible blend for the job at the right price, and making it clear that you get what you pay for. I personally think that the importance of shear stability or ‘stay in grade’ is not stressed enough when quality is talked about.

What is dodgy though is claiming that a mineral based oil with a few percent of modified mineral (‘hydrocracked’) synthetic is the DB’s and suitable for racing, etc. when it clearly isn’t.

Also, there is endless semantic manoeuvring and lawyer-speak around The Magic Word ’synthetic’.

For instance, a ‘synthetic’ oil is invariably semi-synthetic (’Ah! We didn’t say it was all synthetic did we?), and, if low priced, invariably the modified mineral type synthetic. It is a sad fact that you get what you pay for, but even so, stick to the reputable UK/European brands, and remember that shipping an oil half way around the world doesn’t automatically make it better than one made in your home town.

As for TV advertising…well, does anybody believe it? Due to its huge cost, a TV advertising campaign can significantly raise the cost of specialist items such as oil. Everybody assumes it’s just a few pence per gallon, but it can be pounds per gallon.)

Please can you explain the grading system? What is meant by the weight of an oil? What does 10W/40 mean for example?

Weight means viscosity, or resistance to flow. Water and paraffin flow very easily, so they are low or light viscosity. Golden syrup or 140 gear oil do not come out of the can so easily, so they are high or heavy viscosity.

Especially with oils, temperature is very, very important. An oil which looks ‘heavy’ at 20C will be very ‘light’ at 100C. People sometimes say, ‘I drained the oil when the engine was hot and it ran out like water…’ so I say, ‘Good! It’s supposed to be like that!’

The American Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) ratings cover cold starts and ‘up and running’ viscosities. There are two sets of standards, the ‘Winter’ (W) ratings, and the 100C standard ratings. (‘W’ does not, repeat not, mean ‘weight’!)

So a 10W/40 oil has to pass a 10W cold viscosity test at -25C, and a SAE 40 test at 100C. In an oil lab there will be a refrigerated viscosity measuring device for the ‘W’ tests and another at 100C for the standard SAE tests. There are 6 ‘W’ ratings from the difficult 0W at -35C to the dead easy 25W at -10C, occasionally used in India for example!

The whole point of these Winter ratings is to assist cold starts, to get the oil circulating quickly, and to avoid power and fuel wasting drag as the engine warms up. Once it is warmed up, the 100C ratings count. There are 5 of these, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 although why anybody bothers with 60 in the 21st Century is a mystery to me!

Sorry folks, but I’ve got to get technical. Viscosity is measured in standard units called ‘Centistokes’, names after a Victorian engineer, Sir George Stokes, who used to time ball bearings as they sank through oil. SAE 30 for example is from 9.3 to 12.5 Centistokes, and SAE 40 follows on at 12.5 to 16.3, although most SAE 40 oils are in the middle at about 14.

Now this is something most don’t realise: engines do not know what grade of oil they’re running on. They’re not clever enough! So an engine filled with 10W/40 will be running on a viscosity of 14 at 100C, but with a sump temperature of 90C its seeing a viscosity of 18, so as far as the engine is concerned it’s running on SAE 50. Likewise, at 110C, it’s down to 11 Centistokes so it ‘thinks’ it’s on a SAE 30! (Which is preferable.)

The lesson is, do not use power and fuel-wasting thick oils in cool climates. A decent 10W/40 or even thinner is perfectly OK unless you’re running a classic with wide clearances and a slow oil pump.

Radical race cars use 1300 Suzuki Hyabusas and work them very hard. (Didn’t one take the old Nurburgring absolute record at one point?). They use our high-ester 15W/50, but that’s OK because they see oil temps around 130C! (No problem for the oil or the engine, but they do fit special oil seals.) At 130C the true viscosity is 10cSt, so the engine thinks its on a thin SAE 30, which keeps it happy.

8) What is the best type of oil to use in a road car for general use? Is fully synthetic a waste of money?

Personally I’d go for a shear-stable part ester synthetic, SAE 10W/40 or 5W/40. The ‘shear-stable’ bit (ie, a decent quality multigrade polymer) is actually more important than the ‘synthetic’ part!

If strapped, I’d go for a shear-stable mineral based oil rather than a ‘synthetic’ of dubious stability that’s probably based on modified mineral oil anyway. Unless you’re covering a huge annual mileage, genuine 100% synthetics are probably an extravagance. High mileage long-distance fans can use a light full synthetic and save on fuel and oil changes, and cut overhaul costs if things get to that stage, but more later…..


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 13, 2011)

Part 3.

9) What are the main differences between 2 and 4-stroke oil? Why does 2-stroke oil have to be mixed with fuel?

2-stroke oil has a very short working life, straight in and out, and it gets burnt. The 2-stroke engine doesn’t have a sump full of oil and the bearings are all rollers, so there’s hardly any oil drag, hence no need for multigrades. Long term stability is obviously not a problem!

But, 2-stroke must burn off without leaving any plug-fouling or detonation-initiating deposits. The detergent and anti-wear additives used in 4-stroke oil leave hard white ash behind when they burn, just what you do not need in a 2-stroke. So 2-stroke oils use low-ash detergents and dispersants, and the better types use ester synthetics to act as anti-wear compounds.

With current environmental concerns, smoke is a sensitive issue, so most ‘road’ 2-stroke oils are now low smoke, which requires yet another type of synthetic base designed to burn off invisibly. For some rather basic but very high-revving air-cooled racing 2-strokes there’s still some sense in using blends with that marvellous anti-seize liquid, castor oil!

Due to crankcase induction and compression, the classical 2-stroke obviously cannot have an oil-filled sump, so the only way to keep an oil film on anything was to add oil to the fuel, or inject oil into the crankcase space where it could mix with the fuel vapour. There are now some engines where the fuel and oil are injected separately, but the oil is still burnt.

10) How important is it to change oil regularly? What are the implications of failing to do so?

It is only really important to change oil regularly if the engine covers a low annual mileage made up of slow, short runs. This is being cruel to the oil and the engine! The oil, regardless of its quality, gets full of fuel and water vapour, and never gets the chance to evaporate it all off with a long fast run. The consequences are corrosion, ring and bore wear. It is essential to do a change at least once a year, even if the recommended mileage hasn’t been covered. On the other hand, if you eat up the miles on long blasts the engine and its oil will love it, so with a top-quality oil it is OK to cheat a little on oil drain periods.

11) Do some types of oil (i.e. fully-synthetic) ‘wear out’ quicker than others? How important are timely oil changes? Can you rely on the frequency suggested by your User Manual?

The type of oil that is likely to give trouble after low mileage is a light viscosity type with poor shear stability, either mineral or modified mineral based. (Such as one of the USA ‘fuel economy’ oils for lazy car engines that pushed the Japanese OEMs to bring in their own oil spec.) The important thing is the shear stability; the much hyped ‘synthetic or mineral’ nonsense is a red herring.

The oils that will last the longest are the relatively rare 100% genuine synthetic shear stable types, which will easily stand twice the recommended drain period in a high-mileage high performance engine. (So in the long run they aren’t really so expensive.) Just the thing for those touring fiends who pack up and set of for the Transylvanian Alps as soon as the clocks go forward!

Of course, User Manual drain recommendations are based on a back-covering ‘worst case’ scenario of low annual mileage on poor quality oil, so they can be regarded as a very safe minimum mileage.

In the past, there used to be trouble with heavy carbon deposits and sludge around the engine with early low-detergent oils, but these days almost any oil with a good API specification will keep everything clean for 10 to 15,000 miles, so that’s the least of your worries.

12) Does oil have to be warm to do its job properly? Is it important to warm up your engine before using at speed?

Yes, it does have to be at least warm, and preferably hot. Most people except the sort with white finger syndrome find metal at 60C too hot to touch, yet 60C is too cold for oil in an engine that’s going flat-out. The best approach is to use a good 5W/40 or even a 10W/40, and take it easy for the first couple of miles, especially in very cold weather.
For racing, a really good warm-up is essential, except perhaps with special 0W/20 low-drag race oils. The trouble is, oil pumps are very good at pushing oil out at 60PSI, but unfortunately there is only 14PSI (atmospheric pressure) pushing it in! (Even less in Katmandhu.) So it’s easy for an oil pump to pull voids or pockets of vacuum in the oil if it doesn’t flow fast enough into to uptake. This ‘cavitation’ obviously reduces the amount of oil the pump can deliver.

Also, in high-speed bearings the oil can be too thick to keep up with the high rubbing speeds reached in modern engines so the ‘wedge’ or hydrodynamic’ effect breaks down. I know it goes against common sense (whatever that is) but the faster a bearing is turning the thinner the oil should be. (A 4cm. diameter main bearing is rubbing its shells at 56 MPH at 12,000RPM! To avoid cavitation the oil need to be less 10cSt or less, which is SAE 30 if the oil happens to be at 100C, or SAE 40 if its at 110C.))
What is the difference between road and racing oils?
The days of incense-like ‘R’ oils for racing only are past, except for classics. At least as far as 4-strokes are concerned, the best synthetic types are ideal for both race and road use.

With ultra-precise components, high-pressure pumps and high engine RPM there has been a move to special synthetic low cavitation/low drag oils to release more power with no reliability loss. These can be (and are!) used in road cars, but 0W/20 is not mentioned in the user handbooks, so there is always some warranty risk. Honda is perhaps the only exception!

13) How does a high-performance oil allow the motor to produce more power?

An engine wastes fuel energy in several ways, and most of them are due to the laws of thermodynamics, which is another way of saying you can’t do much about it. But up to 6% of engine output is lost due to oil drag, made up of pumping losses and viscous drag between moving components. The transmission is included in this.

Provided wear and friction are kept down, there are real gains to be made by using a ‘tough’ but low viscosity oil. Surprisingly, frictional losses are low, down at 3% or less even with conventional oils, so there are few gains to be made here.

I have actually seen this extra power output on the dyno! A very experienced operator in Peterborough who does a lot of test work for Lord Emap used his own year-old Honda Blackbird, with the first run on his favourite 15W/50 high-ester synthetic. 128BHP.

Then we changed to a 5W40 high ester synthetic. (So it wasn’t an unfair comparison with B & Q 15W/50!) This time we saw 131.6BHP with a corresponding torque increase.

Finally we went to a new (at that time) 0W/20 special synthetic and 134.4BHP appeared! Even the boss was impressed! Later trials in different race and road engines showed this level of improvement was no fluke, so it really does work; and, with the right chemistry to look after the engine and transmission internals, there’s no down side of increased wear.

14) Why do some engines consume oil? Is this a problem?

Large air-cooled engines or classics with wide piston clearances, or very highly stressed liquid-cooled engines which flex under load, or which use ultra-light pistons with the minimum number of rings are likely to be oil users. There is little that can be done about it. Unfortunately, burnt oil tends to leave hard deposits in the combustion chambers which can initiate pre-ignition, so more frequent top overhauls are usually necessary.
Occasionally, touring engines will use oil for no apparent reason. This is often due to the oil level rising in the crankcase due to air retention, leading to oil loss through the breather. The answer is to move to a lighter grade of oil to improve air release.

15) If you need to top up your engine oil, how important is it to use exactly the same brand and type?

Not very important at all. Unfortunately, due to ‘arse covering’ reasons we cannot print this advice on the can! Although officially all manufacturers advise against mixing different makes and grades, in fact there is very little chance of any harm being done, even if one is a mineral 20W/50 and the other is a 5W/30 synthetic. Obviously, avoid this if you can, but do not panic if there’s no other alternative. Just don’t mix 2 stroke and 4-stroke oil!

16) There are all sorts of additives available which are supposed to improve ordinary oil and reduce friction, improve power output etc. Are they worth a try?

Oil is already a very advanced and deeply researched fluid which does not need any ‘enhancement’. There is no secret formula out in the backwoods that the mainstream lubricant chemists do not know about; but there are plenty of half-baked ideas and gullible people out there!

These wonder additives are usually 1930s chlorinated paraffins, long obsolete gear oil additives which should have disappeared in the 1950s, but they keep turning up as ‘Xxtrasuperlube ZX3’ with a mark-up of several thousand percent. They actually corrode engine and transmission internals, so they do far more harm than good.

Others depend upon the total myth that PTFE powder coats engine internals and reduces friction. It doesn’t do anything or the sort. It just blocks the oil filter. The AA tested one of these overpriced PTFE concoctions (‘Quick 60’ or something) very thoroughly back in the 80s. They stated: ‘This is an expensive way of coating your oil filter’.

So there we have it, would just like to thank once again John Rowland (R&D Chemist) for taking the time to provide these answers to questions that we are frequently asked.

The Opie Oils Team.


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## gmax (Oct 14, 2011)

:msp_scared: You win! :msp_biggrin:


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## Stihlman441 (Oct 14, 2011)

I use Mobil 1 Racing 2T fully synthetic oil at 40:1 with 95 to 98 octane ethonal free fuel.

Mobil 1 Racing 2T meets or exceeds the requirements of the following industry specifications: 
API TC 
ISO E-GC, E-GD 
JASO FC, FD 
TISI Meets 
SAE Grade 1, Grade 2 



Typical Properties
Mobil 1 Racing 2T 
Viscosity (ASTM D445) 
cSt @ 40 ºC 83 
cSt @ 100 ºC 12.7 
Viscosity Index 154 
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 0.15 
Pour Point, ºC (ASTM D97) -42 
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 100 
Density @15.6 ºC g/ml (ASTM D4052) 0.884


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## deye223 (Oct 14, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> Part 3.
> 
> 9) What are the main differences between 2 and 4-stroke oil? Why does 2-stroke oil have to be mixed with fuel?
> 
> ...


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## Bob Wright (Oct 15, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> Crude oil, which is usually very thin, (contrary to popular belief!) is distilled into light and heavy fractions, with several intermediate ones. (The evil left-overs are used to fuel the 15 million cc/40RPM diesels in the giant oil tankers that bring the crude to the refinery.)
> 
> The lighter fractions, usually more than 90% of the original crude, are converted into petrol and diesel. Some of the heavier oils, (still dark and smelly!) go through several processes to clean them up and remove wax.


 
Raw crude is like water and real stinky. I worked/ran a refinery for 10 years. The crude rations and what comes out of the final product depends on if its sweet or sour crude. Sweet crude has more gas and diesel and sour has more heavy oil bottoms and road tar. Most refineries now mix sweet/sour and condesate to their liking as its coming in the pipeline and very few refineries just run straight sweet but some do. Most oil companies buy junk oil and try to make good product out of it. Just what i know...Bob


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## Bob Wright (Oct 15, 2011)

tilenick said:


> It just seems to me that the saw engine is made the same as it was years ago and they all ought to run at a comparable mix ,if it is a newer oil.


 
A few of my old Echos are marked 16:1 and that was way before the mix oil came around. Back then it was non detergent motor oil and gas. The engine never changed but the oil did...Bob


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## one.man.band (Oct 15, 2011)

interesting read!

category/ group base oils I, II, III, IV, V...... 

if there are different quality stock base oils coming out of the ground or being massaged into something usable for gas/oil.... how would the average guy on the street know what kind of quality they are buying?

when i did have things that went really fast.... what i was told......the best oil came from pennsylvania. (kendall and brad penn was the stuff). cannot remember exactly, but the oil that came from that state was supposedly coming out of the ground very pure. it had a cool green color tinge to it, much like stp and aeroshell.

looked up kendall.... they were bought out. brad penn still in business. checked if they made a 2 stroke oil while i was on the site. got redirected to their parent company. my point is..... they listed their 2 stroke oil as being 
20 WT. 

is all 2 stroke oil just 20 weight?


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## one.man.band (Oct 15, 2011)

another cup of coffee....and food for thought.

the chemist from silkolene oil company's reply 9, from thread post #24 says (paraphrased), that the 2 stroke oil is burned. to reduce 'smoke', a synthetic chemical is added so that the exhaust smoke is reduced or 'invisible'.

on maxima oils site (dirt bike oils)..... they put some kind radioactive ingredient into a 2 stroke engine to see how the oil flows through the motor components, how much time it takes to reach different areas of the engine, etc. worth a look. the results chart says in the bottom line that over 99% of the oil passes through the exhaust and is unburned.

Tech Tips - Maxima Racing Usa - Overkill


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## Bob Wright (Oct 15, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> interesting read!
> 
> category/ group base oils I, II, III, IV, V......
> 
> ...


 
I was taught the same thing get a good Penn Crude oil for motor oil. Then i went to work in the refinery and learned a few things. The oil companies don't tell you everything (if anything). Remember after the first Gulf War and Kuwait was on fire. After the fires were out and millions of gallons of crude oil was on the ground and needed cleaned up. Yup they sucked it up sand and all put it in tankers and sent it to the USA. Some of the sand settled in the tankers and some settled in the million gallon storage tanks but they got it for pennies on the dollar. After the dirt settled it ran like any other oil thru the refinery and they made lots of money. About the time i started there they were cleaning the many feet of sand from the storage tanks. So no one really knows whats running thru the pipes at any given time espically the general public. But the oil workers know because they are there 24/7 dealing with the problems of making crappy crude water into gasoline...Bob


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## one.man.band (Oct 15, 2011)

wow!
definitely a 'beverley hillbillies' type of moment. power of turning a buck is an amazing thing.

the base stock could be just about anything it seems. found out it comprises about 60 to 70% of the oil in a bottle, just a carrier for all the other additives, but the main ingredient.

also synthetic oil can be labeled as such....even if it contains just a small % of actual synthetic in it. most synthetic oil is not really full synthetic at all, it is 'hydrocracked' (whatever that means) from regular mineral oil. because of a number of lawsuits between oil companies against each other for labeling oils as 'synthetics', everywhere in the world (except for Germany) partial synthetic oils can be labeled as full synthetics ...even if they contain a low % of actual synthetics. would be curious to know which brands of oils can be labeled 'synthetic' in Germany.


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## Bob Wright (Oct 16, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> wow!
> definitely a 'beverley hillbillies' type of moment. power of turning a buck is an amazing thing.
> 
> most synthetic oil is not really full synthetic at all, it is 'hydrocracked' (whatever that means) from regular mineral oil.


 
Cracking (chemistry) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We had hydrotreaters that used Hydrogen and Fluid Catalyic Crackers that used a cataylst and their purpose is to break down the larger carbon chains to smaller carbons chains so in simple terms it gets the junk out of the product that you want in the end. But the junk is usually used for another product. Like Sulfur is removed from the Diesel and Kerosene and its a pretty yellow color when cleaned up and its used for medicines. Who would of thought something like that came from raw crude. With lots of heat and chemicals you can make about anything from anything in a refinery except gasoline from water they are still working on that one. We tried  ...Bob


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 16, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> wow!
> definitely a 'beverley hillbillies' type of moment. power of turning a buck is an amazing thing.
> 
> the base stock could be just about anything it seems. found out it comprises about 60 to 70% of the oil in a bottle, just a carrier for all the other additives, but the main ingredient.
> ...


 
If you find the CAS number in a MSDS you can check to see if the base oil is GTL Group III base stock, PAO IV, or a Group V synthetic ester. In normal use PAO oils offer more than enough thermal stability, and shear strength. Esters are used in extreme conditions like racing. 

one.man.band. 

Maxima really understands what they're doing and it's one reason I run their 2K ester two cycle oil. Fuchs aka Silkolene is at the top of the heap, and they even helped developed new refining methods and oil additives. Fuchs has a really informational international website. Fuchs Silkolene Motorcycle Lubricants and Oils


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## Officer's Match (Oct 16, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> There are 3 different 2-stoke oil standard rating systems in use, (that i am aware of).
> JASO FB (good); JASO FC (better); JASO FD (best)
> 
> 
> Echo-Powerblend (NEW) w/fuel stabilizer. Exceeds: ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD (M345)



Thanks 1MB, based upon that, I picked up some Powerblend yesterday.


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## sachsmo (Oct 16, 2011)

Bunch of good oils out there,

I use this stuff,


Super TechniPlate®


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## MacLaren (Oct 16, 2011)

I like the Klotz R-50 and also Stihl Ultra.


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## sachsmo (Oct 16, 2011)

Nothin' like the smell of Benol in the mornin'.


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## KiwiOilBoiler (Oct 16, 2011)

Bob Wright said:


> I was taught the same thing get a good Penn Crude oil for motor oil. Then i went to work in the refinery and learned a few things. The oil companies don't tell you everything (if anything). Remember after the first Gulf War and Kuwait was on fire. After the fires were out and millions of gallons of crude oil was on the ground and needed cleaned up. Yup they sucked it up sand and all put it in tankers and sent it to the USA. Some of the sand settled in the tankers and some settled in the million gallon storage tanks but they got it for pennies on the dollar. After the dirt settled it ran like any other oil thru the refinery and they made lots of money. About the time i started there they were cleaning the many feet of sand from the storage tanks. So no one really knows whats running thru the pipes at any given time espically the general public. But the oil workers know because they are there 24/7 dealing with the problems of making crappy crude water into gasoline...Bob


 
Amen.


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## one.man.band (Oct 17, 2011)

Took: Andyshine77's suggestion: "If you find the CAS number in a MSDS you can check to see if the base oil is GTL Group III base stock, PAO IV, or a Group V synthetic ester. "

what i found: MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for many of the oils listed on the first page of thread.

what i did NOT find: on the MSDS sheets, there were no listings of any CAS number.

so.....after searching i found that...... OSHA requires certain items on a MSDS and CAS# is not one of them. a CAS# is by definition 'Chemical Abstracts Service Registry Number'


interesting(?) facts: 1. Both Quaker State and Pennzoil are owned by Shell (SOPUS Corporation). 2. Echo Oil is made by CITGO. 

unless, other countries have their own type of MSDS sheets showing actual CAS#'s, i am giving up the quest to find out the BASE OIL Category/Group #'s for these oils.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 20, 2011)

One man My MSDS for Ultra does list the CAS number,64742-54-7. A few years ago I looked it up and it outlined the oil as an ester oil. However I just looked up the number again and it wasn't listed. I did a little more digging and it seems someone didn't like everyone knowing what base oils they are using, hum I wonder why.:msp_wink:


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## one.man.band (Oct 20, 2011)

Updated 10/20/11 : Added more Oil Brand/Specs from responses 10/20/11. (sorry, edit function for first response is not working. ?)




one.man.band said:


> There are 3 different 2-stoke oil standard rating systems in use, (that i am aware of). Rating systems rate oil by passing certain tests. The 3 organizations which rate oils are as follows:
> 
> API - FC (one rating only)
> 
> ...


----------



## one.man.band (Oct 20, 2011)

hoping to get a reply from the resident refinery gurus like Bob Wright or KiwiOilBoiler or others on this:

recycled oil:

have y'all ever dealt with recycled oil at the refinery?
what do you guys think of recycled oil?
could it be re-refined (or whatever step is necessary) to make a clean/quality product?

think that most if not all oil will be recycled in the future sooner or later....and would appreciate your thoughts to enlighten us on this.

thx.


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## MNfarmer (Oct 20, 2011)

When I finish up the Jonsered oil I got with my 2171 I'll go back to using Cenex Synthetic BlendTwo Cycle oil. I don't have any specs on the Jonsered oil but here is what I have on the Cenex oil. Meets or exceeds API TC, JASO FB, JASO FC. No fuel stabilizer is mentioned.


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## HEAVY FUEL (Oct 20, 2011)

Blue Marble

JASO FD 

TC-W3

ISO EGD


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## 727sunset (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks to OP for organizing the list.
Great topic and lots of products to choose from. 
Here's a couple more


Dolmar
with fuel stabilizer
meets or exceeds
JASO FD
ISO EGD




Laser 100% Synthetic Premium
JASO FC
ISO-EGD
approved


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## one.man.band (Oct 21, 2011)

found a new angle on the oil standards thread considering warranty issues. two manufactures were chosen with 2010 warranty requirements for the following saws. 2010 warranty listed information for both. hopefully more manufacturers to follow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
example:
Echo CS-500P (2010 warranty 50cc pro model saw chosen @random):

to avoid voiding warranty: 
must use ISO-L-EGD (ISO/CD 13738) and JASO M345-FC/FD standards. 

also: 89 octane or higher with a maximum content of 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

example: 
Husqvarna 346XP (2010) - warranty language found in operations manual. for warranty coverage, must adhere to operations manual instructions. 

as follows:

-Never use oil for a 4-stroke engine.
-Never use oil intended for water cooled outboard engines, so called outboard oil.
-For best results use Husqvarna 2-stroke oil which is especially developed for chain saws. Mix ratio 1:50 (2%).

also: 87 octane minimum. higher octane recommended for extended high rpm operation.


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## cmarti (Oct 21, 2011)

Poulan Synthetic 2 cycle. 

It is made by Spectrum Lubricants in Tenn, who make the Woodland Pro, Dolmar and Husky oils. It has the exact same MSDS sheet as the others. I will post up any test specs I can find.

http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/... Engine Oil with Fuel Stabilizer Additive.pdf


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## Bob Wright (Oct 21, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> hoping to get a reply from the resident refinery gurus like Bob Wright or KiwiOilBoiler or others on this:
> 
> recycled oil:
> 
> ...


 
Yup we re ran recycled oil (nothing goes to waste there) just put it right into the slop line which mixes with the other blend tanks and feeds right into the mix. There is lots of waste oil generated in the refinery from the compressors and pumps (lots of them) We used crude from at least 20 countries on any given day. All of it had a number or fancy name and we swapped it around as needed for the daily mix. They pay someone to sit in front of a computer and figure out blends based on what crude was on hand. Some days we would run out of a certain crude so we would swap in another until the tank filled back up, that was pretty common...Bob


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## one.man.band (Oct 22, 2011)

*revisiting CAS#'s*



Andyshine77 said:


> One man My MSDS for Ultra does list the CAS number,64742-54-7. A few years ago I looked it up and it outlined the oil as an ester oil. However I just looked up the number again and it wasn't listed. I did a little more digging and it seems someone didn't like everyone knowing what base oils they are using, hum I wonder why.:msp_wink:


 
found a current msds for this oil here: www.stihllibrary.com/pdf/msds/stihl_hp_ultra.pdf

cas# listed: 64742-54-7 (hydrotreated heavy petroleum paraffinic distillate) --- same # that you previously found.

tried to find corresponding base oil group for this cas#.

result: it could be any group # (depending on how much it is refined).

closest explanation for this i could find: UBB Message - Bob Is The Oil Guy

cas#'s do not specifically correspond directly to a certain base oil group #.

i have no reason to doubt that stihl hp ultra is a synthetic. 

cas# will not, with any certainly tell you much of anything. 


that being said, did find that there is a cas# for recycled oil. thx bob for the reply. 


sachsmo

Nothin' like the smell of Benol in the mornin'. 

me too!


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## stckciv (Oct 22, 2011)

RedMax Low Smoke, Max-Life Universal Oil

ISO-L-EGD, JASO-FD (M345)


----------



## Andyshine77 (Oct 22, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> found a current msds for this oil here: www.stihllibrary.com/pdf/msds/stihl_hp_ultra.pdf
> 
> cas# listed: 64742-54-7 (hydrotreated heavy petroleum paraffinic distillate) --- same # that you previously found.
> 
> ...



A year or so back the cas number would tell you exactly what the base oil was, it looks like they changed the amount of info the csa number provides. There's an older thread where I had a discussion with a fellow oil head about what type of base oil was used in Ultra, and at the time the cas # was very specific in stating that it's a highly refined Group V Ester oil. Something legally changed here, my guess is one of the oil companies didn't want the public to know what oils are being used. This normally mean one thing, one of the big oil companies started using substandard base oils. This is all purely speculation, but it's not the first time something like this has happened. Take all the standards like JASO. The oil industry jacked up the testing price in an attempt to knock the little guys out of the market, luckily it hasn't worked yet.


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## Bob Wright (Oct 22, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> one of the big oil companies started using substandard base oils. This is all purely speculation, but it's not the first time something like this has happened.


 
Yup seen it first hand...Bob


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## one.man.band (Oct 23, 2011)

i'm getting deep enough in "base" oil groups to put the hip waders on. 

group 1 base oils: world supply greatest. "dirtiest" of the groups.

group 2 base oils: better than group 1 in cleanliness. better crude. require more refining (if made from group 1's).

group 2+ base oils: see group 2, but of higher quality.

group 3 base oils: equal to, and/or better than groups 1 and 2 in cleanliness. better crude (read more $ costly). rarer to find naturally occuring. north america has only 6% group 3 supply, while majority of the orient has 46% group 3 supply. group 3's are refined into synthetic stock (group 4's and group 5's), most readily (read the least $ costly of the groups to manufacture). cheap synthetics are actually group 3 oils (not true synthetics).

i'm not going to get into groups 4 and 5......because they (almost all) are highly refined from group 3's into what we know are synthetics. very very good oil properties in these groups.

group 6 base stock: mother's milk. the ultimate stuff. not yet recognized in the U.S. by the API (american petroleum institute). introduced in europe by the ACEA (Association des Contructeurs Europeans d'Automobile). side note: european oil standards that are more stringent. these base oil stocks are made of PIO (polyinternalolefins). differing names for these base stocks are UCBO's (unconventional base oils) or NCBO's (nonconventional base oil's). these are the most severely hydroprocessed to make very high VI (viscosity index) stocks. 

what does this all mean?

my take on this is: in order to polish a turd into gold, it takes finding a golden turd...... OR..... much money spent on refining the turd into gold. either way it is expensive because the supply of group 3 oil is minimal. i mentioned somewhere in this thread that the only way to obtain a true no BS synthetic oils (labeled synthetic) is from germany. everywhere else it means taking the manufacturer's word on it. everywhere else, the word: 'synthetic' could mean either a group 3 oil OR a group 4/5 oil which are actually a true synthetic. look up 'european motor oil' - the prices for these bmw, mercede's approved oils are astronomical.

to make this thread worthwhile for practical use, i think i have found a way to figure out what kind of 2 stroke oil quality we are buying by using VI (which is Viscosity Index). the better the base oil, the better VI it has. *this is by no means the tell all of finding the answer to what the base stock is, because there are many more factors involved. 

taking this thread reply from Stihlman441:

Stihlman441

I use Mobil 1 Racing 2T fully synthetic oil at 40:1 with 95 to 98 octane ethonal free fuel.

Mobil 1 Racing 2T meets or exceeds the requirements of the following industry specifications:
API TC
ISO E-GC, E-GD
JASO FC, FD
TISI Meets
SAE Grade 1, Grade 2



Typical Properties
Mobil 1 Racing 2T
Viscosity (ASTM D445)
cSt @ 40 ºC 83
cSt @ 100 ºC 12.7
Viscosity Index 154
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874) 0.15
Pour Point, ºC (ASTM D97) -42
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 100
Density @15.6 ºC g/ml (ASTM D4052) 0.884 

notice the VI above. *the best oil stocks have the highest VI. (*disclaimer in above paragraph). the VI is the oils ability to stay at the viscosity it was meant to. the highest grade base stocks such as used by the euro oils, are very thin (example: 0w-20). a group 1 oil is mainly used for thicker oils such as 20W-50, because it cannot handle the heat while being as thin as a group 4, 5, 6 can. what it means is that a group 1 oil has to be as thick as molasses to handle the same temp as a group 4, 5, 6.

be aware VI is not the only factor in choosing the finest blend of swill that is put into a bottle of 2 stroke oil. i found a pattern in what i have read about this topic from various sources, and believe it might help identify base oil groups a little easier.

references used for my reply:

www.zddplus.com/techbrief10 %- oil base stocks.pdf

http://core.theenergyexchange.co.uk/agile_assets/456/hans_groen_eng.pdf

www.multisolgroup.com/chevron-premium-base-oils-foreurope.pdf





leaning towards the smell castor beans more and more.


----------



## joeclimbing (Oct 23, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> Part 3.
> 
> 9) What are the main differences between 2 and 4-stroke oil? Why does 2-stroke oil have to be mixed with fuel?
> 
> ...


----------



## one.man.band (Oct 23, 2011)

"It gets burn but how important is the flashpoint? I understand that a high flashpoint is desirable in high reving 2 cycle engine." - joeclimbing

good catch! from the zddplus tech brief (link above somewhere) on page 5 chart: flashpoint temperature increases with base group #.

i was focusing on base group viscosity indexes..... and did not notice that. the base groups main focus is on the viscosity index, so that's what i was concerned with as well.

flashpoint however's main focus is not explained fully on that link. (the information listed is correct, but there is also more to the story). another main reason for listing the flashpoint temperature, is for firefighting and material shipping (cargo) concerns. this is required on the MSDS section III sheets. flashpoint is tested by holding an ignition source over the liquid. the ignition source could be either open flame or spark. << not certain which they use. defined as the coldest temp where the vapors from the liquid ignite.

with all the info about base stock group numbers on this thread, hip waders are a requirement. like 'Bob W.' says .....they distill and blend and use everything... to make whatever the final product is.

the viscosity and flashpoint are just two ways to help identify the base stock used.

keep in mind that: in a 2-stroke, the flashpoint is of the oil, is mixed with the flashpoint of gasoline. 

also

the viscosity of the base oil is most likely not the same viscosity of the two stroke oil in the bottle, because it is blended with other stock(s) in almost every case.

then add in trade secret concoctions of additives and who knows!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
correction/addition

note: i left out base group 3+ by error above. also, base groups 1 and 2 could also be made into synths with more refining and greater effort.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

still learning i am.


----------



## one.man.band (Oct 26, 2011)

*update 10/27/11*

Updated 10/27/11:

*****IF YOUR OIL IS NOT LISTED ON THE official jaso organization site LINK below, 

it IS NOT APPROVED NO MATTER WHAT IT SAYS ON THE LABEL***

1. Added more oils from responses.
2. Added JASO M345 certification procedure. www.Jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV0412.pdf
3. Added official JASO certified 2 stroke oil list. JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
the list was current as of 10/01/11.

Originally Posted by one.man.band View Post
There are 3 different 2-stoke oil standard rating systems in use, (that i am aware of). Rating systems rate oil by passing certain tests. The 3 organizations which rate oils are as follows:

API - FC (one rating only)

or

ISO-L EGB (good); ISO-L EGC (better); ISO-L EGD (best)

or

JASO FB (good); JASO FC (better); JASO FD (best)

I cannot gather all the information by myself. If anyone is interested please feel free to contribute. Don't want to make it a comment thread.. but just facts. When thread has exhausted itself, i will summarize the replies on a single post. Goal is to separate hype and BS.

List your pre-mix oil brand of choice... and what Oil Standard Spec. it meets (if any). Also add if it has fuel stabilizer. All info is on oil bottle/jug label. If it's not listed on label, it means has not been tested for whatever reason.

Example: Echo-Powerblend (OLD) w/fuel stabilizer.
Meets: JASO FC (M345) and ISO L-EGB

Example: Craftsman #7136555 w/fuel stabilizer.
Meets: API-TC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Updated 10/27/11 from responses. In alphabetical order:

THESE OILS NEED TO BE CROSS-REFERENCED FROM OFFICIAL SITE TO BE SURE THAT THEY ARE APPROVED.

(SOME .......MOST, ARE NOT!!!!) 

Approved OILS will have a test number and seal on label.


Amsoil Saber Professional: API-TC; ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD

Bel-Ray (many synth ester and/or petroleum types). (everything they produce looks top notch ISO and JASO).

Blue Marble: TCW-3; ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD

Craftsman #7136555 w/fuel stabilizer. API-TC

Cenex Blend Two Cycle Oil: no stabilizer. Meets or exceeds API-TC; JASO FB; JASO FC

Dolmar: w/stabilizer. Meets or exceeds ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD

Echo-Powerblend (NEW) w/fuel stabilizer. Exceeds: ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD (M345)

Echo-Powerblend (OLD) w/fuel stabilizer. Meets: ISO-L-EGB; JASO FC (M345)

Fuchs/Silkolene: many synth ester and/or petroleum types. (thread response did not specify). (everything they produce looks top notch ISO and JASO).

Husqvarna LS Synthetic: ISO--L-EGD; JASO FD

Klotz Benol Racing Castor Oil: (from company website: No ratings found).

Klotz R-50 Racing Pure Synthetic: (from company website: No ratings found).

Klotz Super Techniplate (80% synth. 20% Castor) (from company website: No ratings found).

Laser 100% Synthetic Premium: ISO-L-EGD approved; JASO FC approved.

Maxima: many synth and/or petroleum types . (thread response did not specify). (everything they produce looks top notch ISO and JASO).

Mobil 1 Racing 2T Fully Synthetic: API-TC; ISO-L-EGC; ISO-L-EGD; JASO FC; JASO FD; TISI Meets SAE Grade1&2

Quaker State Conventional: No stabilizer. API-TC; JASO FA; JASO FB

Pennzoil: API-TC

Poulan Synthetic 2cycle: (specs coming)

Redline: synthetic ester base oils, many types. (thread response did not specify). (from company website: No ratings found).

Red Max Low Smoke, Max-Life Universal Oil: ISO-L-EGD; JASO FD (M345)

Stihl Conventional (orange bottle): W/stabilzer. No ratings noted.

Stihl HP Ultra Full Synthetic (silver bottle): W/stabilzer. API TC; API TC+; JASO FB

Tanaka Perfect Mix: ISO-L-EGD; JASO FC

Woodland Pro-Full Synthetic: W/stabilzer. ISO-L-EGD; JASO FC; JASO FD


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## joeclimbing (Oct 27, 2011)

*Sthil Ultra, but...*

But.... Amsoil has come highly recommended as apparently it has a higher flashpoint..


one.man.band said:


> Updated 10/27/11:
> 
> *****IF YOUR OIL IS NOT LISTED ON THE official jaso organization site LINK below,
> 
> ...


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## KiwiOilBoiler (Oct 27, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> hoping to get a reply from the resident refinery gurus like Bob Wright or KiwiOilBoiler or others on this:
> 
> recycled oil:
> 
> ...


 
Hi, sorry just got back from a (poor) fishing trip.

Our site makes fuel grades. Jet/Kerosene, Petrol/Gasoline, GasOil/Diesel and heavy gunk like fuel oil, ships bunker oil and bitumen for roading. Nearest lube oil refinery is in Australia, so i am reading all this with as much interest as any other reader, but dont have any insight on the lube oil refining question. What i can confirm as Bob has said is that BigOil invented recycling, not to be 'green' but because it makes money. Everything here termed 'slops' goes back to a huge mixing tank, is blended back into the distillers feed and we try and coax a bit more money out of it.

For the record i use Husky XP oil in my saws after much research regarding whether i should use the same Motorex 2T i use in my KTM dirtbike. Even Motorex say to use specific 'air-cooled' oil in ***, and the Husky XP is API-TC. New Zealand manufacturer/source is in no way guaranteed to be same as you guys get up there. For instance our Stihl oil here is plainly branded with the Castrol logo, but i bet yours isn't.

Cheers, Adam


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 27, 2011)

KiwiOilBoiler said:


> For instance our Stihl oil here is plainly branded with the Castrol logo, but i bet yours isn't.
> 
> Cheers, Adam



Correct the oil Stihl sells here doesn't have any Castrol logo or writing on any of the bottles.


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 27, 2011)

HEAVY FUEL said:


> Blue Marble
> 
> JASO FD
> 
> ...


 
After looking at all the info on this oil I wouldn't use it. Oils like this are a bit of a do it all formulation, it does everything OK, but nothing great. The thing that concerns me the most is the fact it's approved for injector systems, this inherently means the viscosity is very thin, not something wanted in a mix oil for air cooled engines. The flash point is also too low for my taste, and last but not least it's not a full syn oil. Now I'm sure it's not the worst oil out there, but they're much better options IMHO.


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## one.man.band (Oct 27, 2011)

will post links to actual JASO test procedures. (getting ready for work, no time): they are found on JASO site.

the testing/certification process of JASO oils skews certain oils to failing. from what i remember, (will post references and corrections), the oil ratio used for JASO testing procedures is 16:1. this is important because oils designed to run leaner ratios such as 100:1 would have difficulty passing the tests. the leaner ratio oils are designed to do just that, these oils were not designed or recommended to be run at 16:1. they work by keeping things clean from deposits because there is such little oil in the mix. another way to put this into perspective, would be to think about if the test ratio was 100:1. if it was, very few oils would be able to pass testing. 

TCW-3: this rating is not specifically for air-cooled 2 cycle engines. looking at different branding/labeling shows that some oils use the TCW-3 rating along with ratings for air-cooled engines as well. "universal" type of rating, for all types of 2 strokes (water and air cooled). the testing/specs of water cooled vs. air-cooled oils differ.

FLASHPOINT: the oils are blended. because oils are blended with solvents and additives for detergency, smoke control, etc. , when the flashpoint test procedure is happening..... the lightest vapor producing ingredient in the 2-stroke oil formula will catch fire FIRST. this means that most likely, that the base oil is not the thing burning off first.


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## sachsmo (Oct 27, 2011)

Eoil is eoil eh?


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## one.man.band (Oct 30, 2011)

*jaso testing facts - piston/cylinder photos - synthetic vs. mineral oil tests*

JASO M340 - Tests: lubricity and initial torque - exact same test for FB, FC, FD oil. The test is either pass or fail.
Therefore, since a passing grade is the same for (FB, FC, FD), no difference in superiority can be determined because raw numbers from tests are not published. Note: Oil Ratio used for test = 50:1

JASO M341 - Part 1 Tests Detergency of Piston Top and rings for 60 minutes run time for FB and FC oils while the testing length is 180 minutes for a FD rating. Since the FD oil is tested for 3X the length of the FB and FC oils that alone says something about the rating. Deposits are viewed at end of test procedure.

Part 2 Tests Detergency of the piston skirt. This test is for FD oils only for 180 minutes. The FB and FC rated oils do not meet the passing grade for piston skirt testing, or elect not to be tested for piston skirt cleanliness. 

Note: Oil ratio used for test = 100:1

JASO 342 - Exhaust Smoke Test. An overly rich mixture of 10:1 is used for this test. The lowest acceptable passing grade (most smoke), is given to FB rated oils. The FC and FD oils receive a the same passing grade for less smoke.

JASO 343 - Exhaust System Blocking test. Measures amount of blocking on power valves/exhaust. An overly rich 5:1 ratio mix is used. The lowest acceptable passing grade(least blockage), is given to FB rated oils. The FC and FD oils receive a the same passing grade for even less blockage. Note: the test does not specifically list catalytic converters, but maybe this could apply to those as well.

----------------------------
This link has some photos of 2 stroke oil testing done. Results speak for themselves. The duration of these tests was over 250+ hours.

Two stroke engine oil, two stroke engine oil test, testing results for two stroke aircraft engine oil.

Interesting to note the results of mineral vs. synthetic photos. (You might be surprised).

------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another series of tests done by Yamaha Motor Company. They tested low smoke 2 stroke oils. Lots of results graphs. Another interesting indirect result of the tests is the synthetic vs. mineral oil results.

www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf

----------------------------------------------------------

was going to post a link to photos of a popular oil used by many members here, that showed a very varnished piston skirt, but decided against it.

stay thirsty my friends.


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## weimedog (Oct 30, 2011)

I've been using Mobil One MX2T until I ran out, then went back to motorcycle roots and have had success with Bel-Ray H1R and recently because of supply issues Golden Spectro Synthetic....Where do these fit relative to oils such as Bailey's Woodland Pro and the other Major (Stihl & Husqvarna) brand offerings? Klotz is yet another proven oil...


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## Andyshine77 (Oct 30, 2011)

weimedog said:


> I've been using Mobil One MX2T until I ran out, then went back to motorcycle roots and have had success with Bel-Ray H1R and recently because of supply issues Golden Spectro Synthetic....Where do these fit relative to oils such as Bailey's Woodland Pro and the other Major (Stihl & Husqvarna) brand offerings? Klotz is yet another proven oil...


 
Mobil One MX2T was a great product, I used it for years and it was the cleanest burning oil I've ever used, plus it was really cheap. 

Most of the *** oils are a bit thinner than the racing oils, they mix easy and often have fuel stabilizers in them. For the most part the syn oils offered by the *** manufactures are really pretty good, but a bit over priced if you use a lot of mix. 

The racing oils like Bel-Ray H1R, Klotz R50, Motul 800, Silkolene Pro 2 SX and Maxima K2 are full on racing esters, all of which have incredible film strength and thermal stability, the film strength of these oils are nearly that of castor oils, but without any of the gumming issues castor oils tend to have. Ester oils are also polar, so the oil is literally attracted to metal, this helps prevent dry stat ups. In chainsaws these oils are honestly overkill, but I've yet to see anything really negative with these oils. I've seen the inside of quite a few engines ran on many different oils, and the engines ran on ester oils seem to have the least ware, and everything inside is always covered in a nice coating of oil. I can't say that about some of the *** oils.


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## Schipp (Nov 3, 2011)

*one oil?*

"Interesting!" 
(so... the one oil fer all brand chainsaws is...?)


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## sachsmo (Nov 3, 2011)

Schipp said:


> "Interesting!"
> (so... the one oil fer all brand chainsaws is...?)




Yup!


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## one.man.band (Nov 4, 2011)

photos or piston/combustion chamber of different oils.

The R/C Aircraft Proving Grounds - 2 Cycle Oil Test Summary

oils tested: 
Amsoil dominator
Amsoil Sabre
Bel-Ray H1R
Lawnboy
Mobil 1 MX2T
Mobil 1 MX2T with fuel injector cleaner added
Pennzoil Aircooled
Pennzoil TCW-3 Synthetic Outboard Synthetic


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## one.man.band (Nov 5, 2011)

Stihl Warranty (2011) - MS261 <<in regards to fuel/oil>>

this is taken from USA Warranty. (Stihl's Warranty varies by country where purchased).

From warranty language:

Warranty will be null and void IF the purchaser:
1. Use's a fuel containing more than 10% (E10) ethanol content gasoline
2. Use's improper mix ratios or use of mix oils and other lubricants not specified in product instruction manual.

From Product Instruction Manual:

1. Use high quality unleaded gasoline, 89 (R+M/2) minimum octane.
2. M-Tronic motors can run on gasoline with an ethanol content of up to 25% (E25).
3. Use recommended Stihl HP Ultra 2-cycle oil OR equivalent high-quality oils that are designed for use only in air-cooled 2-cycle engines.
4. Do NOT use: TCW or BIA oils. (Water cooled mix oils). Do NOT use mix oils that state that they are for use in BOTH water and air cooled engines.
5. Mix ratio = 50:1

references:
http://www.stihlusa.com/STIHLInc_Limited_Warranty1.11.pdf
http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/STIHL_MS_261_IM.pdf


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## jmw (Nov 5, 2011)

Here's what Stihl Australia sell. 
As noted earlier in the thread it's got a Castrol logo on the bottle. There's nothing about ratings, it doesn't even claim to be oil.

According to my local dealer it's a mineral oil, it's the only 2 stroke oil Stihl sell here & Stihl Australia recommend against using synthetic oil.

Anyone in oz know why that would be?


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 5, 2011)

jmw said:


> Here's what Stihl Australia sell.
> As noted earlier in the thread it's got a Castrol logo on the bottle. There's nothing about ratings, it doesn't even claim to be oil.
> 
> According to my local dealer it's a mineral oil, it's the only 2 stroke oil Stihl sell here & Stihl Australia recommend against using synthetic oil.
> ...



Look for a better dealer. Stihl highly recommends using synthetic oil, they even extend the warranty if you use their syn oil.


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## jmw (Nov 6, 2011)

Andyshine77 said:


> Look for a better dealer.


Next closest dealer's 100 miles away. It was cheaper & easer to get a saw shipped from Franklin, Ohio than to buy locally - should be here any day now.



> Stihl highly recommends using synthetic oil, they even extend the warranty if you use their syn oil.



That's the deal in the states, but australia's different.

I dunno if the bit about recommending against synthetics is true or something the guy at the dealer came up with on his own, but stihl don't sell a synthetic here and there's no extended warrany offer. 

Maybe we're just backwards?


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## one.man.band (Nov 6, 2011)

*focus on Synthetic Ester (Group 5) oils*

maybe/maybe not a good time to post this:

Synthetic Ester Oils

Good things: (some of these points were already made by Andyshine77). thx andy
Great Lubricity.
Excellent solvent for additive package. (ie. detergents, smoke free additive, gas-stabilizers, etc.)
High Flashpoint.
Highly Polar. (Bond to metal parts readily).

So-so thing:
Medium Shear protection under pressure. (Ability for oil to stay in a protective film state).
Long term storage life is fair.

Bad things:
Highly Polar. This is also bad because being highly polar, it bonds to water molecules. Because a 2-stroke always has open ports to the atmosphere, humidity and condensation are a problem. Condensation could come from running a saw on a cool/cold day. Wet weather, high humidity, etc. The oil will bond with this water vapor on engine internals. That's when the so-so thing (listed above), comes into play as well. The protective film state is very important during storage and/or longer lengths between chainsaw uses. A 4-stroke oil system using esters burns the water vapor off, and since the oil is recirculated, does not behave like the 2-stroke oil using ester.
Price. Could easily be double of mineral oils.

Most all 100% ester oils are used for racing type applications. Racers (most) mix only enough for the weekend's use. Synthetic Esters would suit folks who burn through gallons of pre-mix quickly, such as commercial tree cutters, loggers, etc. Those folks keep theirs saws hot for many mnay hours at a go. The folks like me, who only use their saws sporadically for a few months out of the year would have more issues due to storage between uses where using semi-synthetics or mineral oils might be more appropriate.

I don't have a vendetta toward esters. 

references:
Feeding your Rotax 2-stroke Aircraft Engine | Rotax fuel, Rotax octane, Rotax oil, 2-stroke oil
www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10 - Oil Base Stocks.pdf
Feeding your Rotax 2-stroke Aircraft Engine | Rotax fuel, Rotax octane, Rotax oil, 2-stroke oil
www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part23.pdf


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## sachsmo (Nov 6, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> maybe/maybe not a good time to post this:
> 
> Synthetic Ester Oils
> 
> ...


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## stckciv (Dec 14, 2011)

I was at a Husqvarna meeting today and they talked about oils. The instructor stated that the API rating has been non existent for a number of year, they no longer test these oils. He said that JASCO was the one that has done the best/most extreme testing. 

His opinion was that any bottle, at this time, that has an API rating printed on it he has no faith in.


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## one.man.band (Dec 14, 2011)

JASCO list is updated at their site every month:

JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel

if the oil is brand is not listed on their site, it was not tested for whatever reason (no matter what it says on the bottle). Only those certified with test type, grade, and certification # are supposed to be labeled with a FB, FC, FD. Some oil say 'meets or exceeds'....not the same thing in legaleeze.

Oils that say 'Meets or exceeds' most likely DO just that, 'meet or exceed' the JASCO tests. But, we as the consumer have no way to really know. JASCO says that retesting is necessary: if the oil 'name' changes; if the main ingredients (base stock,smoke reducer, etc.) are changed. Many oil blenders do not want to pay for testing or retesting because of the costs involved. $30,000 to $50,000. Many proven oils out there, are not even tested.

Read your saw warranty. Don't void your warranty by using the wrong type of oil. 

Some oils are dyed blue, red, green. Not sure if there is any significance to the different colored dyes? Can the different colors be traced back during motor tear-down to different types of oil or oil quality? (For warranty purposes.)


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## RTK (Dec 14, 2011)

one.man.band said:


> photos or piston/combustion chamber of different oils.
> 
> The R/C Aircraft Proving Grounds - 2 Cycle Oil Test Summary
> 
> ...





I read that a few years ago, some of the synthetics didn't do too well


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## REJ2 (Dec 14, 2011)

There is probably many a good oil out there, I've myself have had no problems with Echo Powerblend in any of my saws.


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## abureels4me (Dec 14, 2011)

I had to grab some Valvoline Multi purpose the other day. Has anyone used it?? 
http://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV461-Certified-2-Cycle-Multi-Purpose/dp/B000C76GTA


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## mreed112 (Dec 15, 2011)

"There is probably many a good oil out there, I've myself have had no problems with Echo Powerblend in any of my saws."

I also use Echo Powerblend in all of my two stroke equipment. I believe that it is great oil. My only problem with it is that it is a CITGO product. I have problem giving money to Hugo Chavez.


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## one.man.band (Dec 16, 2011)

mreed112 said:


> "There is probably many a good oil out there, I've myself have had no problems with Echo Powerblend in any of my saws."
> 
> I also use Echo Powerblend in all of my two stroke equipment. I believe that it is great oil. My only problem with it is that it is a CITGO product. I have problem giving money to Hugo Chavez.



same w/me. read awhile back that he is afflicted w/cancer, the chip off the old block runs the show while he goes to the cigar capitol of the world for help w/health.


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## Bob Wright (Dec 16, 2011)

mreed112 said:


> I have problem giving money to Hugo Chavez.



I have the same problem...Bob


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