# Time to step up to professional Chains?



## Colt_ridge3 (Apr 13, 2013)

Hey guys. Been running a chainsaw for about 3 years now. Started with a McCollock and last 2 years been running a cs-440EVL Echo. Chainsaw's a little old but hasn't had much work put on it. It does not have a chain brake though. I have been running Oregon green box Low kickback chains on it ever since I got it. I have been cutting hard at least 3-6 days every month for the last 3 years. Family has a big piece of property that we are trying to make better for fishing/camping/hunting and it has not been maintained well over the years. It has been selective cut about 5 times in the past and is kind of a mess with smaller, deformed, damaged, or dead trees over camping locations. Anyway back to the subject I have been cutting a lot and wondering how much experience you should have to step up to full chisel chains. Or is the micro chisel a better option for me? I rarely ever feel any kickback and try not to hit tip or upper tip of bar on anything that would cause kickback. Just wasn't sure with having a chainsaw without a chain brake or what to expect. I pretty safe where I put it. Also I do have chaps and a chainsaw helmet I use 99% of the time.


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## Philbert (Apr 13, 2013)

Colt_ridge3 said:


> . . . Chainsaw's a little old but hasn't had much work put on it. It does not have a chain brake though. I have been running Oregon green box Low kickback chains on it ever since I got it. . . . Anyway back to the subject I have been cutting a lot and wondering how much experience you should have to step up to full chisel chains. Or is the micro chisel a better option for me? I rarely ever feel any kickback and try not to hit tip or upper tip of bar on anything that would cause kickback.



Welcome to A.S.

Sharp cutters on a chain are the most important part of a chainsaw, in my opinion. Learning to sharpen, and to maintain a sharp chain, will give you the best improvement in your cutting. After that, there are different 'types' of chains. I use the analogy of car tires: racing tires, or mud+snow tires are not 'better' than all season radials; they are designed for different uses. If you keep your current chain sharp, it should cut the range of type of stuff you are describing fairly well.

Decreased cutting performance on low-kickback chain is most noticeable on longer bars (less chip clearing ability) and when bore cutting (which you say that you do not do). Especially since you note the lack of a chain brake on your saw, I would encourage you to stick with it. No one 'plans' on kick back, and the low-kickback will not prevent it, just reduce the likelihood.

Full chisel chain will cut faster than semi-chisel chain, but dulls faster too, especially on dirty wood, fire wood, bark, mixed stuff, etc. That's why semi-chisel (or micro-chisel, chamfer-chisel, etc.) is so popular. If you want to try a loop, go ahead. I would start with one and compare it side-by-side with what you are already using to see what works for you.

Philbert


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## Colt_ridge3 (Apr 13, 2013)

Ya I was kinda skeptical without having a chain brake at all. Quite a bit of the wood I am cutting is rotten or dirty but I will will be felling quite a few trees this year and didn't know whether to move up or not. I have files for sharpening in the field and a electric chain sharpening grinder at home so I always keep a sharp chain and always keep backups for situations a little filing cannot fix. I am a big believer in sharp chains and always keep them that way. You said the full chisel's dull faster on dirty or rotten wood, but what about micro chisel vs semi-chisel?


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## Philbert (Apr 13, 2013)

Colt_ridge3 said:


> You said the full chisel's dull faster on dirty or rotten wood, but what about micro chisel vs semi-chisel?



Full chisel requires a sharp leading point where the top and side plate edges meet. This point dulls quickly in dirty wood and _s-l-o-w-s_ things down.

'Micro-chisel' and 'chamfer chisel' are just trade names used for some semi-chisel chains. There might be some small, technical differences in the exact radius of the corner, etc., but not something that will make a practical effect in your cutting. Stick with a quality, name brand chain, and keep it sharp.

That said, if you are curious and need some new chains, go ahead and try another type, and compare it. You are the only one who can objectively determine what works better for the cutting that you do, the wood you cut, which holds up better for you, etc. Then you can form your own opinions and let us know what you experience. You might even end up with different chains for different types of cutting (nobody plays golf with just one club, right?).

Philbert


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## Colt_ridge3 (Apr 13, 2013)

Okay I might try that, but would it bother you to run a full chisel chain without a chain brake or does the chain brake not engage even in a strong kickback situation, making it unnecessary?


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## HuskStihl (Apr 13, 2013)

Colt_ridge3 said:


> Okay I might try that, but would it bother you to run a full chisel chain without a chain brake or does the chain brake not engage even in a strong kickback situation, making it unnecessary?



A good chain brake will almost certainly engage in a strong kickback situation. However, while not ideal, with a small cc saw, if you're careful, keep the left arm straight and strong, use a shorter (14-16") bar you should be fairly safe with chisel. I run chisel on my little 445, and even though I'm not a giant manly man, I have been able to control the few kickback incidents I've had with that saw.
Also important is protective clothing.
Stay safe


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## Philbert (Apr 13, 2013)

Colt_ridge3 said:


> Okay I might try that, but would it bother you to run a full chisel chain without a chain brake or does the chain brake not engage even in a strong kickback situation, making it unnecessary?



The question you are really asking about is the risk of kickback. There are several, recognized controls to reduce the *risk* of *injury* from kickback. These include:

- Work Practices: awareness of what causes kickback, avoiding contact with the upper part of the bar tip, holding the saw to the side when cutting, maintaining a thumb-wrapped grip on the upper/front handle, keeping a chain sharp, starting cuts only at full throttle, etc.;

- Personal Protective Equipment (PPE): gloves, chaps, helmet, etc.;

- Engineering Controls: automatic chain brake, reduced kick back chain designs, reduced kickback bar designs, bar end 'protectors', etc.

It sounds like you have some of the awareness and are using the PPE. Since your saw does not have the chain brake, and you are probably not using bar end protectors, using reduced kick back bars and chains are your only engineering options. I don't think that you will pay any significant 'penalty' for using these, based on the description you provided, so there is nothing to lose.

Chain brakes on modern saws can typically be activated in three ways: activation of the upper brake lever / brush guard; inertia (sharp, sudden acceleration of the bar upward); or by releasing the trigger interlock button (only on a very limited number of saws).

There are lots of guys running chisel chain on older saws without chain brakes, but this involves additional risk. You have to decide if the advantage is worth it to you. I am a 'safety guy', so I do not encourage it.

Philbert


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## Colt_ridge3 (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks. I was kind of thinking along the same lines. I agree, and will probably stay away from full chisel on that chainsaw then. I do have a Guard mate tip guard, though I have never used it (came inherited with the saw) but my uncle has a new stihl 290 and he was thinking about trying one, so I have some of his questions answered for him. Might try it out on his and just wait til I get a new saw. The echo I have is 20 years old. Runs great, clean, and was hardly ever used though. Factory bar still had most of its paint.


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## ATH (Apr 13, 2013)

Colt_ridge3 said:


> ....It has been selective cut about 5 times in the past and is kind of a mess with smaller, deformed, damaged, or dead trees over camping locations.....



You have some answers about your chain...so I'll move on to this one:

Sounds to me like you need somebody doing better "selection" for you. Have you been just letting the loggers have their way? Consider hiring a forester if you have future timber sales.


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 13, 2013)

???????


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## Colt_ridge3 (Apr 14, 2013)

Loggers have had their way. I'm 25 and trying to make our property more enjoyable for everyone. Its owned by a couple families, so its hard to get everyone to see potential and the things that need done. They have always had it selective cut and didn't know any other options. I am trying to convince them on changing things. Undergrowth is ridiculous in places, and most trees are small or misshapen. My understanding is selective cuts can cause that overtime. It has been happening for the last probably 75 years give or take and the ground is littered with tops of trees left behind. In most of the property you have saplings anywhere from 1-6 inch diameter every 8-12 inches over the entire property. This being said I have no experience in logging industry and do not know for certain of the cause. Any knowledge on subject would be much appreciated. And are there any 3rd party organizations, such as dnr forestry, that could look at the property and give suggestions on how to begin fixing issues? Canopy is just full of small trees with no room to go or sunlight.


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## twochains (Apr 14, 2013)

Sounds like you need to get your chainsaw fixed. A good sharp aggressive flat top chain will make you wish you had your break bar fixed...especially in hard woods, for that matter...every step of cutting. Non functioning break bar is just dangerous IMO.


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## Stayalert (Apr 14, 2013)

My recommendation would be to get your hands on a saw with a functioning chain brake.


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## ATH (Apr 14, 2013)

Colt_ridge3 said:


> ....My understanding is selective cuts can cause that overtime. ...



"Selective" cuts can mean a lot of things to different people... Unfortunately, most of the time it turns into a timber buyer saying "I will select the trees that will make me the most money today". If, on the other hand, the selection is done by somebody looking out for your interests the timber should get better and better. Just think: 75 years ago "let's take some of the low grade logs out of here, some of the largest/most mature larger trees and leave the smaller good quality trees." then repeat that every 15 years...you wouldn't have much low grade stuff left today - it would be beautiful timber. BUT...you weren't there 75 years ago, so start with what you have and to the best you can to make it that way for your grandchildren!

Yes, start with the DNR: DNR: Private Forestland Management

They may be able to help you...they may direct you to a private forester, but that is probably the best place to start.


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## CTYank (Apr 14, 2013)

About the kickback hazard, one of the best pieces of advice I've heard is "Keep your pieces out of the plane of the chain." In a kickback, the motion is a combination of linear and rotary motion of the bar. In the plane the bar occupies. If you're not there, you're not a target. (Never get cocky about that- it leads to an ER visit.)


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## B Harrison (Apr 15, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Welcome to A.S.
> 
> Sharp cutters on a chain are the most important part of a chainsaw, in my opinion. Learning to sharpen, and to maintain a sharp chain, will give you the best improvement in your cutting. After that, there are different 'types' of chains. I use the analogy of car tires: racing tires, or mud+snow tires are not 'better' than all season radials; they are designed for different uses. If you keep your current chain sharp, it should cut the range of type of stuff you are describing fairly well.
> 
> ...




This is as good an answer as i think you can have. Semi chisel is a great chain type, cuts plenty fast when sharp and forgiving to learn to sharpen on. Seems to work well in dirty wood or when grounded a little. Stihl chains also seem to last better than some others, but it depends on your use.


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## Tree Pig (Apr 15, 2013)

Welcome to AS... lot of good advice here already so my only addition is this. Think about just getting a better saw. Watch craiglist and ebay... in a week or two you could pick up something a little nicer with all the functioning parts. A used stihl 250 or the husvarna equivalent. They are the same class saw but lighter and stronger the the echo. You could pick a good used one for probably around $100-$150 spend a little more and you could move up to a 290.


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## Colt_ridge3 (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks for all the feedback guys I will definitely look into the DNR page. And as far as chain saw goes, I am really hoping to get another before too long. Let this one last me another summer/fall and hopefully next spring having a new one. I will start looking around on craigslist though. I wouldn't mind picking up 362 or 440 if I could find one reasonable on there. If I just wait and get a new one it will probably be 362 or a 290. I have been running a 290 a little bit and I really like it though I wouldn't mind having 362 or 440 for larger bars. I have 2 trees that just fell over 30in diameter so makes me wish I got a saw with a longer bar option available. Then I will start running full chisels some. A family member just put a full chisel on his 290 for the first time so we are going to try it out and see how we feel about it.


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## livemusic (Jul 15, 2019)

CTYank said:


> About the kickback hazard, one of the best pieces of advice I've heard is "*Keep your pieces out of the plane of the chain*." In a kickback, the motion is a combination of linear and rotary motion of the bar. In the plane the bar occupies. If you're not there, you're not a target. (Never get cocky about that- it leads to an ER visit.)



This is an old thread but I will admit, I really don't understand the above. I get the intent but just what it implies, I don't know. Interested in knowing if anyone reads this.


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## Philbert (Jul 15, 2019)

livemusic said:


> This is an old thread but I will admit, I really don't understand the above. I get the intent but just what it implies, I don't know. Interested in knowing if anyone reads this.



"*Keep your pieces out of the plane of the chain*."

Keep your body parts out of the line of potential kickback.
- use only your right hand on the rear handle;
- hold the saw slightly to your side;
- or turn your body slightly so that any kickback will pass by your face / head.




Philbert


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## livemusic (Jul 15, 2019)

Ok, I thought that is what was meant but it wasn't totally clear. Thanks.


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