# My brush with disaster today.



## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 24, 2008)

One of those Never Let The Wife Know happenings.

I was in a huge Norway maple today, storm damage, trim, building clearance & 1/2 inch dead. 310 score for Champ tree, may be a state record.

We had used the GRCS to pic a big limb, I was 3/4 done when we broke for lunch 4-5 hours into the job.

On the way up I was going to show a new climber trainee how to do a jump traverse from section to section. I was ~50 ft up and it was a 20 ft move that needed a little run in my hitch. I love the VT for that, since it give you so much more distance. Blakes does not run much at all.

I grabbed the limb I was going for and eased up on the hitch, which should set the hitch, so I gripped the barrel to set it and let go of the limb.

I'm starting to slide down the rope when I see that the fisherman's has come untied form the beckett of my pulley.

I yell to the ground man to grab my rope (he grabbed the rigging, which would have been the normal thing to do) "no no, grab my climbing line.

All that was holding me up was my hand on the barrel of what was a hitch :jawdrop: 

The slapped my line onto the GRCS and lowered me to the ground, so I could retie and climb back up to finish.

I walked away from this with a pea sized blister on my right social finger.

My lesson learned? Check Your Knots, Check Your Knots, Check Your Knots


Btw, I've been using a VT for 6 years, and just started to use BeeLine a few months ago. I find that the knots creep a lot more the any other cordage I've used. I might take needle and thread to these tomorrow!


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 24, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> One of those Never Let The Wife Know happenings.
> 
> I was in a huge Norway maple today, storm damage, trim, building clearance & 1/2 inch dead. 310 score for Champ tree, may be a state record.
> 
> ...




Whenever I watch a movie, with tree climbers, or hear about you guys talking about climbing, I get real nervios. I had to climb a couple of trees, one I had to take a few limbs off, and the other I had to tie off to help pull over, being too close to buildings, and I'm glad when I get down. 
A big part of it is when I was 8 years old, I climbed up a dead tree. I had a hand saw, and I was topping it, like I had seen in a movie. It had Henry Fonda, and I think Paul Newman in it. I can't remember the name of it. 
I stepped on a limb, and it broke from under neath me, as I fell, my belt caught on the remaining stub of the limb, and ripped me open above the hip about 4" in length, by 1/4" to 1/2"
deep. Ever since then I don't like climbing trees. Take care when you guys are up there. It makes you guys closer to Heaven.
Bruce.


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## Ed Roland (Jun 24, 2008)

Holy Smokes, Man.

That raised the hair on my arms reading about it. 

I had a small fall once. About 15' and 18 stitches later i realized 'i'm not all that invincible.'
*Concerning snap hooks: That "snap" you hear ain't always the "snap" you want.*
CHECK YOUR GEAR BEFORE YOU CLIMB> recheck. look at it again. Put weight on it... Close one eye, tilt your head... mull it over. KNOW ITS RIGHT!

Glad you are OK, JPS.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 24, 2008)

wood weasel said:


> Holy Smokes, Man.
> 
> That raised the hair on my arms reading about it.
> 
> ...



That happened to me 34 years ago, when I was a kid. Scar to to remind me. I should have went to the hospital for stitches tough, but didn't. That sudden drop, and dangling for a couple of seconds, and hitting the ground. Limb was only up 6' off the ground. before that I was always climbing trees. Now I only climb if I have too.
Bruce.


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## Ekka (Jun 25, 2008)

Around here I say STIFF = CHIT!

Stiff rope is chit, end of story. I like my 13mm and my blakes.

Good the hear you're OK.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 25, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> That was a damn close call!
> 
> Glad you made out well John. I've got some Beeline and it seems a little to stiff.



It does not seem too stiff to me, I think it is just the fiber composition that makes it creep more.

I talked to Sean Gere after the job last night and he feels that all the synthetic fiber products creep a lot more. Also that they break down, become mushy, a lot faster.

Over 20 years climbing trees for hire, and this is the first time I have ever had a hitch come undone. I might have had a taughtline lock on a stopper many moons ago, but I have no firm recall of it.

I do remember, yesterday, seeing that the tails had creeped past 1/4 inch and that I would need to retie soon 

I think the thing that did it to me was the job prior, one of the school-kid laborers had untied the tress-cord from the beckett and I might not have really set it hard on the retie.

I wish I could find that rescue line that Brian F. gave me, that was the best I've ever used. I think he got it from Big John... does he ever come here anymore?


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 25, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Check Your Knots, Check Your Knots, Check Your Knots





woodweasel said:


> CHECK YOUR GEAR BEFORE YOU CLIMB



 

glad your okay bucko


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## treemandan (Jun 25, 2008)

Ekka said:


> Around here I say STIFF = CHIT!
> 
> Stiff rope is chit, end of story. I like my 13mm and my blakes.
> 
> Good the hear you're OK.



I have to agree with the old timey method of simplistic safety as well. When I first saw the friction knots used for climbing I thought them to be quite bulletproof and simple. 
The new stuff out there has a few more links than I want to keep track of. I could use anything out there I want... I want 1 rope to do it. I think I just use the taughtline, seldom with a spilt tail. 
Its scary reading about people better than you having mishaps, think I will retire soon. Glad you are Ok.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 27, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Its scary reading about people better than you having mishaps, think I will retire soon. Glad you are Ok.



Thanks. The problem with being good, one can become complacent on "easy" jobs. Though this was a huge tree, there was nothing really hard about it. I was having fun up until that point.

I was demonstrating a move (and showing off a wee bit too) and barely averted disaster. Part of that was my skill and confidence too.

When training new people, I start them with a blakes and the rope tied to the saddle. Tress hitches do take a lot more tending. 

I should have treated that new cord as new equipment, not just like the double braid I used before.


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## pigwot (Jun 27, 2008)

Geez, Glad you came away from that okay! I live in fear of my tools. On my tails that are double-fisherman knotted I use a bright red tape over the whipping and visually check before I go up and several times during the climb to make sure I can "see red". The eye to eye tails I use are beeline, hrc, and ice. They all seem to wear about the same, the hrc takes on a set faster (flattens or collapses) than the other two it seems.


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## Adkpk (Jun 27, 2008)

John, did you figure out why this knot came undone? Did I miss it somewhere being mentioned? Glad your still with us.


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## mckeetree (Jun 27, 2008)

The best climber that ever worked for me used the simplest set up there is. He started out early on using the old three strand climbing rope but switched to arborplex. I have this one guy now that has every kind of device Tobe sells but he is half the climber the old fundamental guy was. Another climber that works here said today he doesn't see how the heck some guys keep up with all that junk they use to climb.


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## pigwot (Jun 28, 2008)

I started way back with three strand manila rope and the ground-person and I spent a lot of time moving the rope to keep it away from hazards and crushing injuries. A 26" Fanno handsaw, an old Bashlin saddle, and the tautline were all I knew for years . We made our own wire-core flip lines out of aircraft cable and 3/4" manila three strand. In about 1982 started using synthetic ropes and in the past year I have added the VT and now the Michoacan using eye to eye tails. I like keeping it simple, but do get facility out of the new hitches.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 28, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Thanks. The problem with being good, one can become complacent on "easy" jobs. Though this was a huge tree, there was nothing really hard about it. I was having fun up until that point.
> 
> I was demonstrating a move (and showing off a wee bit too) and barely averted disaster. Part of that was my skill and confidence too.
> 
> ...


I don't think being good has nothing to do with it John, I'm not saying that you are not, I want to make this clear now, but do you think, that you have been doing this a long time, and maybe gotten your self too comfortable in your work, and not paying close enough attention, to what you were doing? 
This happened to a friend of mine. He is a butcher by trade, and a couple of years ago, he almost lost his thumb with a band saw while cutting meat. He said that he pushed the meat through OK, but it was when he was pulling the meat back, and he touched the back of the band saw blade, and cut his thumb almost to the bone. 
He told me that he had gotten too relaxed in his work, and wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. So I was just wondering John, if that might have happened with you, and your close call. I know we all do it. I'm real glad that you are OK.
Bruce.


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## moray (Jun 28, 2008)

*Make it impossible*

This has been an interesting thread. Climbers seem in general to be very safety conscious and quite unwilling to deviate from best practice. "Best practice", when it comes to knots, does not seem to go beyond "tie, dress, and set", except maybe to add a stopper knot to keep the big knot from eating its tail. For a _temporary _knot that you will only use for a few hours, experience shows this is safe enough.

For a _permanent_ knot, as in an eye-to-eye split tail, I personally would never consider that sufficient. Rigging the knots with colored warning tape so you can monitor the knot creeping undone seems like a half-hearted non-solution.

You could start with the following two assertions:

1. All knots creep. 

2. A stopper knot is not a sufficient remedy for #1.

This could lead to a rule such as:

3. All permanent knots shall have their tails positively secured in some fashion so that it is mechanically impossible for the tail to enter the knot.

As to #1, it may not be entirely true, but it is true enough to be a prudent starting point. Before I switched to spliced eyes, I had a nice split tail made of some sort of tech cord with double fisherman's knots forming the eyes. I used it for months before noticing with some shock that the knots had been slowly creeping all that time.

As to #3, it is worth noting that very very little force is trying to pull the tail into the knot. Between the tail and the loaded rope is a whole lot of friction in the knot, so very little force, if any, makes it all the way through to the tail. Any treatment of the tail that can supply this small amount of resistance will guarantee the knot cannot eat the tail. Some sort of whipping could certainly do the job, especially if the whipping thread was stitched through the tail several times. A really nice solution, if the rope structure would permit it, would be to insert a ball bearing or pencil eraser or some such in the tail of the rope, right up against the knot, then stitch and whip just outside of that. Only a mountain of force could ever pull the extra rope diameter into a tight knot.


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## ClimbinArbor (Jun 29, 2008)

this has interested me on my working end biner. so ive developed a longer "tail" on it. just over a foot long with two safety knots. one right next to my df and one halfway out on the tail. i have seen the first knot get eaten once on someone and i came up with this. it is actually quite a fun little piece of rope. great for throwing, makes a nice handhold, and of course gives you the added protection. it can get in the way from time to time, so make sure you tend it like all the rest.


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## clearance (Jun 29, 2008)

I used to climb Blakes hitch on split tail but now its back to the good old tautline back to the same line. 
Bowline to my D-rings or rope snap, tautline, figure eight stopper. Always, simple. Untied and retied constantly. 

As far as eyes that are permanent, check, check and check again, yes, good advice has been given here.


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## Adkpk (Jun 29, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I find that the knots creep a lot more the any other cordage I've used. I might take needle and thread to these tomorrow!



I found my answer here. Bee line does seem like some stiff stuff. Maybe we could get a pic of the wicking you do?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 1, 2008)

Bruce Hopf said:


> I don't think being good has nothing to do with it John, I'm not saying that you are not, I want to make this clear now, but do you think, that you have been doing this a long time, and maybe gotten your self too comfortable in your work, and not paying close enough attention, to what you were doing?



Well Bruce, here are quotes from me above



> I do remember, yesterday, seeing that the tails had creeped past 1/4 inch and that I would need to retie soon





> I should have treated that new cord as new equipment, not just like the double braid I used before.





> I was demonstrating a move (and showing off a wee bit too)



I think I may have used "complacent" up there somewhere too, but I've shared this with enough people that I'm not sure exactly what I said where, just that the gist has been the same.

Where I take my skill and confidence in the mix is multifold;

I immidiatly understood that there was a problem with my hitch
I did not freak out when I saw it was untied
I understood that my hand on the barrel was keeping the hitch functional
I knew to call for a belay right away

There are a few more minor points, but why beat my own drum. My point is that I screwed the pooch, but my skill, understanding of my system and confidence helped get me through it.

Before making a dynamic move like that, I should have made a thorough check of all connections, which I usually do. Ooops....

Oh, for the record, there was a moment of;

Oh Chit! What Do I Do Now!



As for how I plan to whip the rope, I think a piece of zing-it stitched through will do, just gotta find an upholstery needle in all my crap.



> All permanent knots shall have their tails positively secured in some fashion so that it is mechanically impossible for the tail to enter the knot.



I used to use a "butane backsplice" and mushroom the end while still soft. This does not work well with nomex/kevlar fiber ropes, since they char, not melt. I could probably do this with the core, after taping the cover down.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jul 1, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Well Bruce, here are quotes from me above
> 
> 
> 
> ...



John. Thanks so much for your reply. I have climbed a couple of times, and that is my extent of it. I was just wondering, if the situation, I was describing to you could have a possibility, in your situation. 
But you answered my question, with the highest respect, and didn't treat me like a dummy, which I greatly appreciate. I also appreciate how you described how you tie your ropes, realized your situation, and reacted quickly.
I'm fairly new to this website and I have learned SO MUCH from you People, (I know that there are a lot of Women in this field of work as well) things that I knew very little about, or never heard of before. I have been running chain saws for almost 30 years, all bush work though, cutting fire wood. 
Thanks to you People, and this website, for increasing my knowledge of something I love and enjoy doing. Indebted to yourself, to others who have and to this website, helped my broaden my horizons in this field. Bruce


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 3, 2008)

Bruce Hopf said:


> and didn't treat me like a dummy



I try Bruce, In my book, only dummies treat others lime dummies.

Every so often I fall off the wagon though


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## Bruce Hopf (Jul 3, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I try Bruce, In my book, only dummies treat others lime dummies.
> 
> Every so often I fall off the wagon though


Thanks Paul. Have yourself a Good, and Happy Independence Day tomorrow.
Bruce.


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## Slvrmple72 (Jul 4, 2008)

Very glad to hear you are okay John! I have had a few of those heart stopper moments. Very scary. I use the Blakes on a split tail w/ figure 8 stopper and always see it come undone. I have thought about the VT on Velocity w/Beeline eye to eye but don't know. Been pretty comfortable w/ Split tail setup. Very good point about complacency. My uncle did taxidermy for years and ran the bandsaw blade right down the middle of his finger. Kept a picture of that nasty little number taped to the housing after that. Rookies and veterans seem to be the fellas highest up on the incident pyramid. Learning from others close calls can save a life. Thank you for sharing.-Kevin


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 5, 2008)

Slvrmple72 said:


> Rookies and veterans seem to be the fellas highest up on the incident pyramid. Learning from others close calls can save a life. Thank you for sharing.-Kevin



One of the big companies did a statistical study and injuries declined after 3 years and peaked again at around 8.


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## fireman (Jul 7, 2008)

*check knots*

John I'm glad you are ok I personally check my knots every morning and every time I make an aggressive move.I learned once during a training exercise and like you with the experience you have, the groundie grab the belay.Your knowledge and experience saved you good job.Be careful and stay safe.Getting the new trailer at the end of week 30ft flat bed for lift and bobcat and atv will be nice to pull everything with one truck.got the grcs going to use it for the first time tomorrow on 75 ft oak storm damage.sorry haven't been on site to much we have been so busy with regular work and storm damage trying to catch up.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 9, 2008)

You will have to bring me down again so I can train everyone to use The Winch more efficiently


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