# Certified Arborist Test...Knots???



## M.D. Vaden (Oct 19, 2003)

My plan for November, is to take the test in Wilsonville, Oregon for ISA Certified Arborist, to add to my Certified Landscape Technician status.

I am really enjoying how well the study guide was put together.

What I would like to know from you Certified Arborists that have taken the exam - did they test you on the knots?

I don't do any climbing - purely ground work. Since I sub my climbing to a licensed contractor, a Certified Arborist climber, I'm ignorant about knots.

So I was checking to see how big or little of a crash study I may need to make on that part.

Thanks


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## rumination (Oct 19, 2003)

i just took the Western Chapter Certified Tree Worker exam today. the people there who were doing the arborist exam only had to do a written exam (200 questions) and tree identification. no knots. however, I'd encourage you to learn most of the basic riggin knots because they are extremely useful whether you're on the ground or in the tree.


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## Stumper (Oct 19, 2003)

In addition-knots are just plain FUN. A few truly great knots will enhance your life. Whether pulling someone's vehicle out of a mudhole or hanging up a craft project for you wife or tying something down on your pick-up to haul it home. The right knots make it BETTER.


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## SilverBlue (Oct 19, 2003)

Plus the first time you have to put heavy pressure on a knot say towing a vehicle you will apreciate a knot that unties easy


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 19, 2003)

Did somebody say bowline?


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## TREETX (Oct 19, 2003)

MD - 

Remember that it is not a climbing test and that many certified arborists never actually work on trees.

A lot of city and utility guys get the simple cert so they can appear more credible when questioned by the public on specific policies or actions.

A lot of LA's get the cert. Same for those big tree care companies with hundreds of crews and sales guys that never actually have worked on a tree.

This is not a criticism of any group, just a reminder that MANY of the certified arbos out there have never climber a tree and probably rarely touch them. So being a Cert Arb is not restricted to tree workers.


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## City climber (Oct 19, 2003)

*favorite knot*

Thats Knot my job


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 19, 2003)

The climber certification has a knot section to it, along with the practical app of climbing in a tree.


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## Eagle1 (Oct 20, 2003)

"A few truly great knots will enhance your life".

I love that one. A classic line.


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## NebClimber (Oct 20, 2003)

So, what are the "essential" knots. Please list your top 3.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 20, 2003)

1) Bowline
2) Timber hitch
3) Clove hitch


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## ProfessorPlum (Oct 20, 2003)

The newest ISA cert exam has some very basic questions that require a cursory understanding of the use of knots used by arborists, including the bowline, timber hitch, prussik, etc. At no point on the test are you asked to actually demonstrate how the knot is tied, only under what circumstances the knot is used.

If you don't know those knots already, though, I've never met an arborist who didn't look forward to a chance to show their prowess with a rope over a beer. Keep a length of rope around the house to practice; you'll lose 'em if your fingers don't get in the habit of tying. 

Good knots are pretty life changing, though, as was said. They not only make tree work a hell of a lot easier, they keep you from being that guy on the interstate dodging traffic to retrieve two mattresses and a shattered canoe. You know the guy.


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## Gord (Oct 20, 2003)

Good gravy, a timber hitch as the number two knot!! Whutfer? It's knot even a not, just a bunch of friction wraps. Very dependent on rope type/size/cleanliness/dryness...sorry but I hate the knot. Often touted as easy to undo...except of course when it's under a large block or log (which is often what it's used for) and you must perform about seven unwrappings until it's free.

My knots, not in order:

Bowline, running bowline, sheet bend, other bowline variations.

Clove hitch, half hitches, buntline hitch (all the same thing)

Valdotain Tress and it's variations. (not just for climbing...excellent for a movable attatchment point midline for pulley systems or whatever.)

Distel, Schwabisch, Prussik (variations on the same theme. fancier brothers of the clove group.)

Anchor bend, running anchor bend.

Double Fishermans knot, Scaffold knot.

Figure Eight stopper.


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## Greg (Oct 20, 2003)

Gord, you trashed the good ole timber hitch, but what do you tie to hold a block? I agree the timber does have some draw backs but it has never failed me. I've been using a loopie a lot and like it much better than the timber hitch however. 

ISA exam --- does have knots that you need to know. You don't have to tie them just answer questions about them. I remember some really screwey question about the timber hitch in particular. I think the knots fall under the rigging section. 
Take all of the chapter tests in the book, know them, and you will do fine.
Greg


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## Stumper (Oct 20, 2003)

My top 3: Bowline, Alpine butterfly, and clovehitch. Three aren't enough though. I need that Timber hitch, a Scaffold knot, Distel, V.T., Carrick bend, cow hitch, improved tautline(open asymetrical prussik) round turn and two half hitches and several angling knots that don't carry over to rope.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 20, 2003)

i would like to submit that a VT is a variation/family of round turn/french prusik. An anchor is roundturn sitting on it's own tail as a constritor is the cloves similar answer. i find the coils of a Blakes to place it in this family too. i see an double fishermans/barrel as anchor to self; like buntline to clove or lobster to girth/larks head?

i think that muenter/girth/larks head shwab, cow hitch, prusik is a seperate family from clove, distel,tautline, knut etc. In the former the bar is straight ends out same side middle. This makes pulling on line end push the bar deeper on the tail end, drags the tail the same direction as the pull(locking free end better once again, after line changes direction in the pattern.

The clove (family), on the other hand the bar is slanted, the turns follow the same direction yet cross each other (so not a round turn family), and the ends come out different directions from center. That makes pulling one end of knot push the bar towards the free end of line, as any drag fromthe pull side pulling on free end to pull out too, as well as turns continuting in same direction make this family more 'walkers' than the previous girth/prusik type strategy family. IMLHO i think a scaffold knot as i've seen it is a kinda turned around stretched out clove?

Of course a sheet bend is a cut open bowline, and a bowline is jsut a half hitch choking ring grabbing it's own tail 2x to leave a secured loop i think. 

i place timber hitch as a loose eyesplice.

i really go with the knot groups! And think that a half hitch choking loop is in all of them. 2 of them in smooth series starts round turn/ prussiks, 2 opposing halfs continuing in same direction starts clove, 2 opposing halfs changing direction starts muneter/girth/prusiks.

Kind like the extra bulk of going beyond overhand and fig. 8 stopper. to stevedore in 1/2" and under lines.

Double bowline with Y tie off (even make sheetbend like that).

Clove Family

and Stevedore Stopper.

Ya got me on the running anchor bend though!???


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## Rob Murphy (Oct 22, 2003)

*three most used*

1 Double fishermans ,
2 Clove
3 Running Bowline


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## ramanujan (Oct 23, 2003)

Running anchor bend Spydey? Try it you'll like it. Not for situations of extreme loading, I use it for taglines and such. Just tie anchor bend around standing part with tail emerging away from loop. Good for SRT in place of a running bowline when you need a bit of friction in the running loop to keep it away from suckers stubs etc.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 23, 2003)

MathMan i woulda figured that would hang up!

One i learned as a knot before trees, was a trucker's tightner/hitch that we know as a Z-rig, but is listed as a knot (like parbuckle is). Hauling about anything away from trees, that tension comes in handy, especially if ya can see the pattern to make it a 6x or 9x, impact it with body weight, maybe sweat it in, pull to that side a bit to much; put one like it on the otherside; pull item back straight etc. If moving a motorcycle etc. prolly going to take 4 legs Compress the shocks/springs when ya can as part of process, hitching to strong points, no sheet metal etc.

Good one about butterfly too Stumper!


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## M.D. Vaden (Nov 16, 2003)

The test is over - was today, November 15th.

Only two knot related questions.

Out of about 25 people, I was second to last to finish.

I tend to read the questions very slowly.

So its about 4 weeks until results time.


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 12, 2003)

Succeeded.

Received confirmation today that I passed my test and am now a Certified Arborist.

Actually, now I am a Certified Arborist and a Certified Landscape Technician.

I thought I may have cut it close on the ID section, but I squeezed by with 89% on that part.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 12, 2003)

Congraulations, Mario!








Ya better edit yur profile!


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 12, 2003)

Edited !!


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 12, 2003)

Landscape contractor / Arborist / Landscape Designer 






Ain't cha missin one 'lil word there?


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 12, 2003)

Maybe so.

I'll have to think through a few versions now.

One country club crew in the 80s used to call me "the master of invention" - I liked that one.

To many designers I'm the "master of headaches" because I rub cross grain to a lot of the floozy designers. Some of them remind me of the wine industry crowd I met at wine tastings years ago.


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## jimmyq (Dec 13, 2003)

Welcome to the club Mario.


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## rbtree (Dec 13, 2003)

Way to go Mario!

I was just in Beaverton to celebrate my Mom's 90th birthday. A whirlwind trip, had to get back, being swamped with work, and another windstorm too boot.

We visited the nature preserve west of Tektronix, what a great mix of arborea.


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## ORclimber (Dec 13, 2003)

Congratulations Mario. Now you can fill out those elaborate tree forms in Lake O if you want, gotta be certified. I still keep an eye out for your truck when in the West Hills.


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 13, 2003)

OR Climber - loved my 97 Dodge so much that I upgraded in less than a year to a 2003.

So the truck you need to look for now is a 2003 Dodge Ram quad cab - all white. The trailer is corrugated silver. I only letter my back windows.

email me sometime near the holidays if you would like to have lunch at the Mongolian BBQ or Chinese or something.

I'll check into the Lake Oswego stuff soon.

Thanks.


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## Nickrosis (Dec 13, 2003)

What do you consider more valuable: your CLT or CA? I know it will vary based on the individual, but I would still be interested in knowing what has served you best or will serve you in the future since the CA is new for you.

Nickrosis


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 14, 2003)

Honestly, aside from what I think anyone else wants from me, the CLT has more meat to it from an overall entire landscape care point of view. My particular CLT that is. There are a few different CLTs.

Portland Community College's CLT is one entire year of college. That certification will cover almost anything the Certified Arborist exam can throw at its landscape technician with its plant ID, tree care, horticulture, soils and pesticide classes.

That CLT program covers up to 300 trees and shrubs for ID, turfgrass ID and care, Irrigation, and a whole bunch of other classes.

When I got my CLT years ago, I could have passed the Arborist exam using about 25% of my CLT training. But I didn't really care for the ISA certificate back then.

But in recent years, the ISA certification and test seems to have grown in leaps and bounds, to where I am proud to say that I have achieved that certification also.

Some people said I would "ace" the ISA test. But from what I was aware of, I knew it would be work. And part of my reason for studying was to learn more, not just take the exam.

And it was not easy by any means. The study guide is one of the best designed pieces of work I have seen.

Honestly, I can say that my work habits and safety habits have already improved just from studying and reviewing the material for the ISA test.

From a trees only point of view, I'd give the ISA certification 15% over the worth of a one year college CLT right now. And as a holder of both certifications, I'd say that I respect each fairly equally. 

In general, I think that the average arborist is a bit more ambitious to achieve top notch plant care that the average landscape technician.

That may be why the term "landscaper" is has not been on my business card. When people hear the word "arborist", they almost automatically associate the term with quality and responsibility.


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 14, 2003)

TreeCo, you aren't going to catch me up there.

I had climbing gear about 10 years ago. I didn't get any higher than 40 feet and knew I was not going to conquer my fear of heights. So the next week I sold most of it.

I'll always hire a climber - certified preferred. But I am enjoying learning about rigging and climbing, because it is helping me understand the needs and limitations of people climbing for me. That way I can provide ample size bids and time so they have plenty of time on their hands to do the work right and safely.

Thanks for the support by the way.


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## Nickrosis (Dec 14, 2003)

Honestly, that's a great attitude to have. Sounds like you're really adding to the site by being here.


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## t6140p (Dec 15, 2003)

Best knot to tie two ropes together? Carrik bend. Plus it's the sweetiest knot I've ever seen. best knot to tie on a chain saw? Truckers hitch. Best knot to tie on a rope? Quick hitch.

T


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 15, 2003)




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## NickfromWI (Dec 15, 2003)

Tie on a chainsaw with a Trucker's Hitch? Sounds odd. What knot are you calling the Trucker's Hitch?

love
nick


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## t6140p (Dec 16, 2003)

OK, the dude that showed me the knot called it a Truckers hitch. I don't think it is...but it's a great little Knot for tying on a chainsaw. I'm sorry that I am incapable of showing a pic. but hopefully I can describe it well enough for you all to understand..
Pass a bite of rope through the handle of the saw, then pass the climbers line through that loop, then the tail through that loop. 
All I know is that when you pull the saw up to you, all you have to do is pull the standing end of your rope and the saw is untied. 
Sweet...

T


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## NickfromWI (Dec 16, 2003)

Okay, I know exactly what knot you're talking about. It's a great knot that I use often. It's sometimes called the Waggoner's Hitch. I tried to find it in ABOK, but couldn't (which isn't to say that it's not in there).

I use it when up in the tree to tie off a lowering line that I will need in a moment. Quick to tie, super quick to untie.

Just make sure that there is no chance of a pull on the tail end of the rope when you send up a chainsaw with this knot! 

I'm a big fan of slip knots.

love
nick, 
Member,
International Guild of Knot Tyers


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## kevinz (Dec 17, 2003)

*Highwayman's hitch*

If I understand correctly, I've sometimes heard this referred to as a Highwayman's Hitch.

How is this different from the Slippery Hitch described in the Tree Climber's Companion? Just curious.

-Kevin
[Also an IGKT member since, whoo, October!]


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## NickfromWI (Dec 17, 2003)

Highwayman's Hitch! That's what people are calling it. Google that name and you all can see the one "I" am thinking of, now kevinz and t6140p have to tell if that's what they had in mind. (Aren't knots fun)

http://w1.220.telia.com/~u22008866/img/smugglarstek.gif

I've read in a few places that it can withstand a substantial strain on locked/load end. I tried it and can often collapse the knot with much less than my body weight, causing it to fall apart. The bigger the rope, more of a load it can sustain.

They say the wiley horseman would tie their horses with this so they could make a quick getaway!

love
nick

ps- kevinz, I looked in the Tree Climbers Companion and couldn't find mention of the Slippery Hitch. I found the Quick hitch, which is different.


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## kevinz (Dec 17, 2003)

Maybe it was a Slippery Bend? Can't remember; I'll look it up at home tonight.

-Kevin


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 17, 2003)

I've read so far about knots like:

Hitch
Bend

Are there any called a:

Wrap?

This fall /winter season news indicates the possible need for a:

Noose

Maybe in 2004 some tree person will develop a historical commemorative knot called the "S__dd__m Noose" courtesy of the arborist trade.


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