# Tree death in florida



## Cutter1 (Mar 24, 2010)

http://www.news-press.com/article/2.../1075/Tree-trimmer-dies-after-chainsaw-injury


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## Jumper (Mar 24, 2010)

Needless death by the sounds of it. Get help when injured!


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## Mike PA (Mar 24, 2010)

That man was deadicated.


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## newsawtooth (Mar 24, 2010)

More than likely, the injury limited his ability to make a rational decision. As an industry we need better emergency protocols. Make a safety plan, follow it, and seek advanced care. I had not considered this situation. Any ideas for a better outcome?


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## tree MDS (Mar 24, 2010)

I probably shouldnt say this... but with a name like "Bottom Dollar Tree Service".... well, it is what it is.


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## tree md (Mar 24, 2010)

Sounds like he bled out. Sad to hear. Prayers for the family.


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## Mike PA (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't do this work. However, I deal with safety issues routinely in my job. Your comment about Site Safety and Health plan is the best insurance workers have to prevent this. In that plan, there should be a statement that ANY contact with a moving chain requires a medical assessment first, then additional treatment as needed. The assessment cannot be completed by the person in the tree and must be completed on the ground.

I suspect that he made a rationale choice, with the information he had. I think it is more likely that he did not fully realize or appreciate the extent of the injury because it didn't hurt as much as he expected, didn't seem bad enough, was just a glancing shot... This is not uncommon with many injuries that the injured simply did not know the extent of the injury. He was also a co-owner, so no one on site had the authority to order him out of the tree. For this reason, there should be a designated safety officer who is responsible for evaluating safety protocols and being certain that they are followed. This person should not be the person in the tree, but a responsible person on the ground. This person can observe the cutting activity of the climber and the activity of the ground workers and provide an assessment of those activities. This person should have the authority to stop work if the need arises and have the authority to bring someone out of the tree, when needed.


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## treemandan (Mar 24, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I probably shouldnt say this... but with a name like "Bottom Dollar Tree Service".... well, it is what it is.



Bottom dollar ? HEEELLLLOOOOO!!

RIP


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## teatersroad (Mar 24, 2010)

newsawtooth said:


> More than likely, the injury limited his ability to make a rational decision. As an industry we need better emergency protocols. Make a safety plan, follow it, and seek advanced care. I had not considered this situation. Any ideas for a better outcome?



It is very hard to move a man, esp from out of a tree. A well understood/engrained SOP that compells the worker to heed advice like that might have helped. Old brain remembers enough that "in this situation, I am to do such and such".


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## newsawtooth (Mar 25, 2010)

Teatersroad, I think you're right. Training for the appropriate response is likely the best plan. Make it one of the SOP's like hardhats and chaps.

MikePA, good idea on mandating treatment for saw cuts. An integral part of safety plans is making decisions about how to respond to events before we are in situation that requires action. What business are you in?

We could probably put together a good safety plan on this site. Might be worthwhile. I developed mine from the ANSI standards, OHSA logging standards, and experience in pre-hospital emergency care. It is probably due for some revision and we could draw on the experience of the whole gang. Or we could just watch the Aussies duke it out over palms.


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## Jumper (Mar 25, 2010)

Chain saw pants (not chaps) might have resulted in a less severe injury perhaps?

I realize they are hot to wear at times, but all except one of the climbers I ever worked with in Ontario in summer wore them. The one that did not used to smoke dope on the job, which says it all to me.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, I would say that this makes a very strong case for wearing chainsaw pants or chaps. I think I'll look into getting myself a pair of the pants.

I have only nicked myself with a saw onetime while in the tree. Not bad, just brushed it with my forearm as the chain was coming to a stop. I've cut myself far worse with my handsaw. I cannot understand why the guy didn't realize the seriousness of his injury. Maybe he went into shock? I mean there had to be a lot of blood for him to bleed out and expire. That being said, I have injured myself and kept working without coming down and looking at my injury. I stuck a gaff through my big toe when I traversed to another tree onetime. I needed to get the job done so I could get paid and didn't want to look at my toe to tell the truth. Never heard of anyone bleeding out from a toe injury though. All I can figure is the guy must have went into shock which clouded his judgment. Very sad.


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## Jumper (Mar 25, 2010)

tree md said:


> Yes, I would say that this makes a very strong case for wearing chainsaw pants or chaps. I think I'll look into getting myself a pair of the pants.
> 
> I have only nicked myself with a saw onetime while in the tree. Not bad, just brushed it with my forearm as the chain was coming to a stop. I've cut myself far worse with my handsaw. I cannot understand why the guy didn't realize the seriousness of his injury. Maybe he went into shock? I mean there had to be a lot of blood for him to bleed out and expire. That being said, I have injured myself and kept working without coming down and looking at my injury. I stuck a gaff through my big toe when I traversed to another tree onetime. I needed to get the job done so I could get paid and didn't want to look at my toe to tell the truth. Never heard of anyone bleeding out from a toe injury though. All I can figure is the guy must have went into shock which clouded his judgment. Very sad.



A guy thing perhaps-I'm not hurt coach. This has happened in our Army as well, in a training situation people that should have received immediate medical attention did not, as they did not want to appear weak, their judgement totally clouded, leaders and others did not intervene, dropped (from heat exhaustion), went into multiple organ failure and died(Yes it does get hot up here in summer). The fact that this person was 48, and co owner according to the article, might indicate he was the crew boss and the groundie(s) subordinate(s), and if the boss says he is OK, even though he is up a tree and bleeding like a stuck pig, especially after the way he yelled at me(us) yesterday afternoon.........sort of like co pilots that allowed pilots to conduct a fatal action, yet said nothing and did nothing because the Captain is the boss in the cockpit. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management

From above re United Airlines Flight 232, have a looksee bearing in mind the origin, there are some good points raised, and how it is now being used in other industries.

"Captain Al Haynes, pilot of United Airlines Flight 232, credits Crew Resource Management as being one of the factors that saved his own life, and many others, in the Sioux City, Iowa crash of July 1989.

...the preparation that paid off for the crew was something ... called Cockpit Resource Management.... Up until 1980, we kind of worked on the concept that the captain was THE authority on the aircraft. What he said, goes. And we lost a few airplanes because of that. Sometimes the captain isn't as smart as we thought he was. And we would listen to him, and do what he said, and we wouldn't know what he's talking about. And we had 103 years of flying experience there in the cockpit, trying to get that airplane on the ground, not one minute of which we had actually practiced, any one of us. So why would I know more about getting that airplane on the ground under those conditions than the other three. So if I hadn't used [CRM], if we had not let everybody put their input in, it's a cinch we wouldn't have made it."

Again from wiki article (bracketed steps are my inserts as might be applicable to the situation)

"A CRM expert named Todd Bishop developed a five-step assertive statement process that encompasses inquiry and advocacy steps[citation needed]:

Opening or attention getter - Address the individual. "Hey Chief," or "Captain Smith," or "Bob," or whatever name or title will get the person's attention. (Hey Dan!)
State your concern - State what you see in a direct manner while owning your emotions about it. "We're low on fuel," or "I think we might have fire extension into the roof structure." (I think you have cut yourself really badly as there is a lot of blood on your leg, and it is dripping to the ground)
State the problem as you see it - "I don't think we have enough fuel to fly around this storm system," or "This building has a lightweight steel truss roof. I'm worried that it might collapse." (I am really concerned you are loosing too much blood in the tree and might pass out, You know I can't climb too well!)
State a solution - "Let's divert to another airport and refuel," or "I think we should pull some tiles and take a look with the thermal imaging camera before we commit crews inside." (Why don't you come down now and I will get the first aid kit and get you patched up?)
Obtain agreement (or buy-in) - "Does that sound good to you, Captain?" (Does that sound good to you Boss?)
These are difficult skills to master, as they require a change in interpersonal dynamics and organizational culture."






A very sad case, and food for thought.Perhaps a good tailgate topic if any of you hold those.

I would go with pants that are cut with a climber in mind-I can not see chaps working in a tree, they are good on the ground to take on off quickly though.


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## EdenT (Mar 25, 2010)

This is really tragic. I could imagine doing something like this, that is in hindsight, is not so clever. A reminder for all of us that even though we are above mere mortals in altitude we are not invincible. RIP Tree Man!


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## Mike PA (Mar 25, 2010)

Newsawtooth - I do geologic consulting and routinely work with and around heavy equipment, hazardous materials, and some confined space work. I need to write and execute health and safety plans for everyone coming on site. Every morning, we would have a safety meeting to review common hazards, discuss previous issues, and how to deal with injuries and emergency situations. Maybe tree guys don't need to have this type of discussion every day, but at least at the start of each new site or weekly. As someone else said, all of the decisions are made ahead of time so no thought is needed other than following what should be common practice.

As cumbersome as it may be, PPE is not something that can be compromised. If the PPE causes problems, then there needs to be a different solution, whether is more frequent breaks, a lift, whatever. Part of my health plans usually involve minimzing the use of PPE by using better solutions. No one wants to wear a respirator when something as a simple as a fan may work better.


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## tree md (Mar 25, 2010)

Mike PA said:


> Newsawtooth - I do geologic consulting and routinely work with and around heavy equipment, hazardous materials, and some confined space work. I need to write and execute health and safety plans for everyone coming on site. Every morning, we would have a safety meeting to review common hazards, discuss previous issues, and how to deal with injuries and emergency situations. *Maybe tree guys don't need to have this type of discussion every day, but at least at the start of each new site or weekly. As someone else said, all of the decisions are made ahead of time so no thought is needed other than following what should be common practice.*



On everyone of my jobs, the first thing I do is assess what needs to be done, figure out the most efficient way to go about it and address any safety issues with my guys. In other words, I get a game plan together and go over it with my guys.

For example, I am going to remove these limbs by roping them from this rigging point. Guy number 1, you lower them to this landing zone and make sure that nothing swings into that service drop, cable, phone line, what have you. Guy number 2, you grab the limb and run it out into the yard as it is being lowered and make sure that you don't hit the service drop, etc, etc. Then throw it over the fence to guy number three so he can load/chip the limb...

We go over every job before we start working so everyone knows their responsibility, any hazards and make sure that no one is in the dark about what we are doing.


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## teatersroad (Mar 25, 2010)

tree md said:


> On everyone of my jobs, the first thing I do is assess what needs to be done, figure out the most efficient way to go about it and address any safety issues with my guys. In other words, I get a game plan together and go over it with my guys.



Exactly. Biggest problems i've seen in Firefighting, not letting the groundpounders know the hazards you do. example, asigned to a fireline I had not seen "hold this line", get there and right inside the line were several three phase power stancions. o.k., live, dead? Spray water around this over 50 continious yards of flame front? Shocking thought. Brought it up at de-brief. "We took care of that at management level", hey thanks for letting on, too bad you left out the management part but glad you thought well enough too consider it. Countless other examples too. Don't underestimate your crew, they can save your life. - or at least their own.


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