# Snellerized MS461 on the dyno



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

I finally bit the bullet and sent a saw to Chad to run on the dyno. This particular saw was built the same as all of my 461s, not knowing it was going to go on the dyno. Also, this saw is not nearly broken in, as it's still on only is first or second tank of fuel.

This graph does a great job of giving a visual representation of my build style, and why I build like I do. I talk a lot about demanding both RPMs and torque. If a saw doesn't have both, I'm not happy with the build. Notice how the ported saw makes as much or more HP than the max of the stock saw from about 7,500-12,000 RPMs. HP climbs earlier than the stock saw but at the same rate/curve. Once the stock saw maxes out, the ported saw just keeps climbing. Once it peaks, there's no abrupt fall off, and it tapers off nicely. It's making 6+ HP from <7,000 all the way up to almost 12,500.

Even more surprising than the results of my ported saw, are the results of the stock saw. This is the same saw that Chad ran on his dyno before, only this time, it's making 3/4 more HP. Since then, this saw has seen a lot of run time with a 36" bar, so is fully broken in. The same testing methodology was used. This really surprises me. I would have never guessed it would be that much. This would suggest that the ported saw should easily end up at 8.5+HP. I'll take that!

A couple details about how I build a 461. This saw has a .035" popup, resulting in 180-190 PSI compression. It's been several months since I built this saw, so I don't recall exactly what it was. I find that the 461 runs best with lots of intake duration and set the intake port timing at 85°. I've also found that it likes short blowdown, so have that set at 16°. I've tested other configurations, and this is where I find the 461 runs best. This saw is wearing a 046 coil and timing has been advanced about 6°.


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## stankers (Feb 2, 2015)

Good looking chart. Nice work Brad.


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## Moparmyway (Feb 2, 2015)

Nice work Brad !
It sure looks like 8hp is gunna happen once she is all settled and broken in.


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## HuskStihl (Feb 2, 2015)

Looks good. I really like the dyno. Not so much as a "my saw is better than yours" sorta thing, but as they become more common, the performance of saws will only improve


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## Perry pioneer (Feb 2, 2015)

Wow good work.that really is bad ass? After fully broke in you should run it again just curious.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

If only I had a good way to record sound. The sound of a good ported saw loaded on the dyno is absolutely fantastic. I was amazed at how well this saw ran. It pulled hard yet idled beautifully.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks Chad. I really appreciate you running this saw for me.


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## Wayne68 (Feb 2, 2015)

Whats the advantage of the 046 coil?


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## Perry pioneer (Feb 2, 2015)

Results like this you can really take pride in your work. Take pride in yourself too. That's really a large boost! Congrats....


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## M&Rtree (Feb 2, 2015)

I remember my first time going to a dyno proving my gains my butt felt. Smile ear to ear that day. The real reward was when I went to the track and picked up mph and dropped et's. Now you have double the proof. In the cut and the dyno numbers.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Wayne68 said:


> Whats the advantage of the 046 coil?


The factory coil is rev limited.


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## wyk (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> If only I had a good way to record sound. The sound of a good ported saw loaded on the dyno is absolutely fantastic. I was amazed at how well this saw ran. It pulled hard yet idled beautifully.



A way to avoid the sound clipping is to move the camera to a distance and zoom in. Some cameras have input for microphones.


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## Wayne68 (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> The factory coil is rev limited.


 OH thanks for the info. Great looking results on the 461


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## Perry pioneer (Feb 2, 2015)

Hey do you have a picture of the saw on the dyno I'd love to see it?


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## CR888 (Feb 2, 2015)

What it shows also is that it your 'in the cut' working rpm is lifted a couple of K yet is still broad actually broader than stock. This don't look like a hyper narrow cookie cutter band, it looks like a torquey worksaw with a substantial power increase. l like Chad's comments on how it idles.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Feb 2, 2015)

Good job Brad, that will definitely cut firewood quicker than a stock one!. Compression is a good way to increase torque everywhere which in turn increases hp. My personal saws I prefer to have as much compression as possible.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Good job Brad, that will definitely cut firewood quicker than a stock one!. Compression is a good way to increase torque everywhere which in turn increases hp. My personal saws I prefer to have as much compression as possible.


I like to keep the compression under 200. I don't see the need for more than that. Less stress on the bottom end and not necessary for a super stout work saw. That's just my opinion and build style.


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## F.W.P.T (Feb 2, 2015)

Nice work both Brad and Chad!!!! I'm a huge fan of dyno graphs. It's nice to see an actual increase in power quantified on paper (or computer screen).


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

CR888 said:


> What it shows also is that it your 'in the cut' working rpm is lifted a couple of K yet is still broad actually broader than stock. This don't look like a hyper narrow cookie cutter band, it looks like a torquey worksaw with a substantial power increase. l like Chad's comments on how it idles.


How do I double like a post?  That's exactly what I shoot for. Chain speed is what cuts wood.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

I did a little investigating. I found an engine tuner calculator that suggests the majority of the stock 461 Hp increase was probably due to the the colder drier air that the saw was consuming now compared to the last stock 461 test I did back in August. Temperature and humidity make a significant Hp change. This is why I always do a test against a base line saw at the same time as the modded saw.
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I did a little investigating. I found an engine tuner calculator that suggests the majority of the stock 461 Hp increase was probably due to the the colder drier air that the saw was consuming now compared to the last stock 461 test I did back in August. Temperature and humidity make a significant Hp change. This is why I always do a test against a base line saw at the same time as the modded saw.
> http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm


That definitely makes a difference. Subtract .75HP from the ported saw, and I'm still one happy saw builder!


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## wyk (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I did a little investigating. I found an engine tuner calculator that suggests the majority of the stock 461 Hp increase was probably due to the the colder drier air that the saw was consuming now compared to the last stock 461 test I did back in August. Temperature and humidity make a significant Hp change. This is why I always do a test against a base line saw at the same time as the modded saw.
> http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

I was curious about that Chad. Do you run the dyno outside?


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## mountainlake (Feb 2, 2015)

For all of you that run your 12000 rpm in the cut take a look what happens to the hp at 12000 rpm. Steve


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> For all of you that run your 12000 rpm in the cut take a look what happens to the hp at 12000 rpm. Steve


It's still making more HP than stock max HP. This saw should cut fastest at 10,000. I find that most saws perform best with a moderately heavy load, but shy of bogging it.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I was curious about that Chad. Do you run the dyno outside?


Most of the time yes. The shop I test in is huge and we have exhaust drop hoses but I find it really hard to capture the exhaust especially on a dual port muffler. I roll the dyno outside the door because the shop gets uncomfortably smokey quickly. I do a lot of cutting in the summertime then my saws sit for awhile till its cold and the ground is frozen. I feel the need to usually retune when its cold. Cold air is more dense so the saw runs leaner when its cold. I've had ported saws that felt like they could have had a larger carb when running it in super cold weather but they run fine when its warm.


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## CR888 (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I did a little investigating. I found an engine tuner calculator that suggests the majority of the stock 461 Hp increase was probably due to the the colder drier air that the saw was consuming now compared to the last stock 461 test I did back in August. Temperature and humidity make a significant Hp change. This is why I always do a test against a base line saw at the same time as the modded saw.
> http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm


l suppose if your comparing saws it is quite important to do them together rather than comparing testing from another day. My cars always run better at night, cooler air with more oxygen in it. lt makes quite a difference compared to a hot humid day. Great tuning tool!! Great port job!


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## old-cat (Feb 2, 2015)

If a rev limiting coil stops the rpms at just above 13,000 rpms, then I fail to see any reason not to use it.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Most of the time yes. The shop I test in is huge and we have exhaust drop hoses but I find it really hard to capture the exhaust especially on a dual port muffler. I roll the dyno outside the door because the shop gets uncomfortably smokey quickly. I do a lot of cutting in the summertime then my saws sit for awhile till its cold and the ground is frozen. I feel the need to usually retune when its cold. Cold air is more dense so the saw runs leaner when its cold. I've had ported saws that felt like they could have had a larger carb when running it in super cold weather but they run fine when its warm.


Was this run outdoors?


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

old-cat said:


> If a rev limiting coil stops the rpms at just above 13,000 rpms, then I fail to see any reason not to use it.


It's much easier to hear the tune with an unlimited coil. This saw tunes well above the rev limiter.


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## Ron660 (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I did a little investigating. I found an engine tuner calculator that suggests the majority of the stock 461 Hp increase was probably due to the the colder drier air that the saw was consuming now compared to the last stock 461 test I did back in August. Temperature and humidity make a significant Hp change. This is why I always do a test against a base line saw at the same time as the modded saw.
> http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm


 That's a lot of deviation in stock saws tested. Best I remember, the earlier stock 461 tested was 5.9HP and this one is 6.7HP?


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## old-cat (Feb 2, 2015)

I tune my saws in the cut by sound


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

49.2% gain at 12000 rpms This saw will pull really well in wood with the right sprocket and chain combo from 9000-11000 rpms. It'll run better at any rpm really. The saw mounted tach is nice Brad. Nice and small with a clean look. The dyno results and the saw mounted tach will tell you where its best cutting speed is.


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## stihlaficionado (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I finally bit the bullet and sent a saw to Chad to run on the dyno. This particular saw was built the same as all of my 461s, not knowing it was going to go on the dyno. Also, this saw is not nearly broken in, as it's still on only is first or second tank of fuel.
> 
> This graph does a great job of giving a visual representation of my build style, and why I build like I do. I talk a lot about demanding both RPMs and torque. If a saw doesn't have both, I'm not happy with the build. Notice how the ported saw makes as much or more HP than the max of the stock saw from about 7,500-12,000 RPMs. HP climbs earlier than the stock saw but at the same rate/curve. Once the stock saw maxes out, the ported saw just keeps climbing. Once it peaks, there's no abrupt fall off, and it tapers off nicely. It's making 6+ HP from <7,000 all the way up to almost 12,500.
> 
> ...


I want one…& not the dyno


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## HuskStihl (Feb 2, 2015)

old-cat said:


> I tune my saws in the cut by sound


I'm back to the stock coil in my only limited ported saw. I like the unlimited coils for tuning to get the maximum performance, but these days, I'm running most stuff pretty rich, so I'm 4-stroking before bumping the limiter


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> That's a lot of deviation in stock saws tested. Best I remember, the earlier stock 461 tested was 5.9HP and this one is 6.7HP?


I thought so as well. I haven't punched numbers into the calculator to see how much weather affects the numbers. I do know that forum members talk about how much difference break-in can make. I still thought that was a lot. Like said earlier though, take off .75 HP and I'd still be happy.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> The saw mounted tach is nice Brad. Nice and small with a clean look. The dyno results and the saw mounted tach will tell you where its best cutting speed is.


Did you find it to be accurate? I thought it seemed kind of inconsistent and was scared to trust it.


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## Ron660 (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I thought so as well. I haven't punched numbers into the calculator to see how much weather affects the numbers. I do know that forum members talk about how much difference break-in can make. I still thought that was a lot. Like said earlier though, take off .75 HP and I'd still be happy.


I concur. But if you take off 0.75 HP from the stock saw you also have to lower the ported saw result the same to a max of 7.2. No matter, these are good results.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> I concur. But if you take off 0.75 HP from the stock saw you also have to lower the ported saw result the same to a max of 7.2. No matter, these are good results.


I concur. However, I have to believe the dyno is accurate, based on prior performance. I don't think he has changed anything recently. The question to me is if the difference is weather, break-in, or possibly tune. Chad, do you recall of you had the stock saw tuned to the same RPMs both times.


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## HuskStihl (Feb 2, 2015)

This is a fairly simple dyno, and SAE corrections may not be as applicable to small two strokes. Basically, you are going to have to look at percentage of improvement vs stock rather than absolute numbers. This dyno is perfect for seeing how porting changes affect the power band, but really bad for pissing matches. Your saw made a really nice gain over stock, the absolute number is meaningless


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## nmurph (Feb 2, 2015)

I've never thought break-in made a huge difference. The difference might be a couple or three tenths of an HP.

Nice job, Brad!


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

nmurph said:


> I've never thought break-in made a huge difference. The difference might be a couple or three tenths of an HP.
> 
> Nice job, Brad!


I never did either, but this has me wondering. Chad, does your 461 feel that much stronger than when new? Honestly, this has me more intrigued than my saws results. IIRC, I predicted 8HP @ 10,500, so wasn't far off.


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## mdavlee (Feb 2, 2015)

Nice looking graph.


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## Lignator (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> If only I had a good way to record sound. The sound of a good ported saw loaded on the dyno is absolutely fantastic. I was amazed at how well this saw ran. It pulled hard yet idled beautifully.



there are some great freeware software applications on the internet for sound recording and manipulation. get yourself a cheap microphone, plug into PC and record. you can then end the sound clip and save as a wave file.

we use this at work to isolate and identify certain offensive frequencies in the products we make.


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## Lignator (Feb 2, 2015)

additionally, i applaud the effort that went into building this dyno. numbers don't lie. even if your absolute numbers are off a bit at least the differential is real and meaningful.

i have been digging around here over the past few weeks and read quite a few threads around your dyno build.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> That's a lot of deviation in stock saws tested. Best I remember, the earlier stock 461 tested was 5.9HP and this one is 6.7HP?


.789 increase to be exact. I looked back in the weather archives and found the weather data for the August date when I tested it and yesterdays data and entered it in the calculator. .944 correction brings yesterdays stock 461 max hp to 6.4hp. 8/22/14 has a correction of 1.008 bringing its max hp to 6.04 hp
So with the corrections added my stock 461 gained .36 hp since it was last tested. That could have very well been from a good thorough break in.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> .789 increase to be exact. I looked back in the weather archives and found the weather data for the August date when I tested it and yesterdays data and entered it in the calculator. .944 correction brings yesterdays stock 461 max hp to 6.4hp. 8/22/14 has a correction of 1.008 bringing its max hp to 6.04 hp
> So with the corrections added my stock 461 gained .36 hp since it was last tested. That could have very well been from a good thorough break in.


Excellent. So that would make the ported saw corrected to 7.54 HP?


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## Tor R (Feb 2, 2015)

Pop or not, its how well the ending result that mather, and this one looks amazing.
Great job Brad


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> This is a fairly simple dyno, and SAE corrections may not be as applicable to small two strokes. Basically, you are going to have to look at percentage of improvement vs stock rather than absolute numbers. This dyno is perfect for seeing how porting changes affect the power band, but really bad for pissing matches. Your saw made a really nice gain over stock, the absolute number is meaningless


I'd give ya 100 likes if I could. I've emphasized this many times. I should go back and delete the old graphs so they cant be picked at. All that matters is the % of increase or decrease from the base saw at the time of testing.


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## mountainlake (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> 49.2% gain at 12000 rpms This saw will pull really well in wood with the right sprocket and chain combo from 9000-11000 rpms. It'll run better at any rpm really. The saw mounted tach is nice Brad. Nice and small with a clean look. The dyno results and the saw mounted tach will tell you where its best cutting speed is.


 How do you come up with a 49.2% gain at 12000 rpm. The ported saw should be run at 10000 rpm and the stock at 9000 rpm and it's better to error on the low side as torque increases with less RPM. Steve


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I never did either, but this has me wondering. Chad, does your 461 feel that much stronger than when new? Honestly, this has me more intrigued than my saws results. IIRC, I predicted 8HP @ 10,500, so wasn't far off.


My 461 has been the most impressive stock saw I have ever run. I feel it gets stronger every time I run it. I ran It back in September and October with my 36" bar on it. I can't stop talking about how well that beast pulled that 36" bar through oak. I'd like to mod the oiler to get a bit more oil.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

stihlaficionado said:


> I want one…& not the dyno


Good it's not for sale.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Excellent. So that would make the ported saw corrected to 7.54 HP?


Yep


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## Ron660 (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> .789 increase to be exact. I looked back in the weather archives and found the weather data for the August date when I tested it and yesterdays data and entered it in the calculator. .944 correction brings yesterdays stock 461 max hp to 6.4hp. 8/22/14 has a correction of 1.008 bringing its max hp to 6.04 hp
> So with the corrections added my stock 461 gained .36 hp since it was last tested. That could have very well been from a good thorough break in.


 Chad, what were the temperature differences from those two different dyno testing dates? I agree, the percent increase is the real data we're looking for. That means my 660 during the winter, and after break-in, is probably over 8.5HP!


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

mountainlake said:


> How do you come up with a 49.2% gain at 12000 rpm. The ported saw should be run at 10000 rpm and the stock at 9000 rpm and it's better to error on the low side as torque increases with less RPM. Steve


I was showing how the ported saw has gobs more torque at 12000 rpms vs the stock saw at 12000 rpms.


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Chad, what were the temperature differences from those two different dyno testing dates? I agree, the percent increase is the real data we're looking for. That means my 660 during the winter, and after break-in, is probably over 8.5HP!


Something like 45 degrees difference. I remember that august day being very cool and the archived data shows 76 deg F that day. I'm positive your 660 would pull harder now.


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## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

Looks great. 

Nice job for sure.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I like to keep the compression under 200. I don't see the need for more than that. Less stress on the bottom end and not necessary for a super stout work saw. That's just my opinion and build style.


I agree on the stress Brad, plus everyone has their style. For my personal saws its more of R&D to see how much compression it can handle. So far I don't use them enough to find the breaking point. Maybe it would over heat in 100 degree weather, I just don't know. Of course good 94-100 octane fuel is used for those 200 plus psi saws, no reason to chance it.


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## Trx250r180 (Feb 2, 2015)

Like was said before ,nice curve on the graph ,you get an attaboy


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## Tnshaker (Feb 2, 2015)

That is VERY impressive!!!


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

Perry pioneer said:


> Hey do you have a picture of the saw on the dyno I'd love to see it?








This an MS 660 on the dyno taken a while back less the electronic testing equipment. I also added an electric fan on the oil cooler.


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## Duane(Pa) (Feb 2, 2015)

Thank you both! This is so cool, and I can hardly get in the woods to cut. I think the oils and alloy's in today's saws are so good that break in happens at a snail's pace. So slow that you can hardly notice it happening. The dyno tells no lies.....


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## Duane(Pa) (Feb 2, 2015)

Chad, I have said this before: get a patent on that beach. The guy that invented the push button socket release for the Craftsman ratchet got screwed royally by missing out on patent rights... etc.


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## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

You guys wondering about break in. 

I tend to think the seals do more to drag down the engine than anything else. I'm sure the rings getting bedded in makes some difference, but a new set of seals really makes the crank a lot harder to spin by hand when assembling an engine.


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## Duane(Pa) (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You guys wondering about break in.
> 
> I tend to think the seals do more to drag down the engine than anything else. I'm sure the rings getting bedded in makes some difference, but a new set of seals really makes the crank a lot harder to spin by hand when assembling an engine.


Truth. I have seen rubber seals cut a groove in a hardened steel shaft in filthy environment Ag applications. There is definitely plenty of seal friction...


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## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Brad is gonna get snowed under with folks wanting a 461 done.


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## mdavlee (Feb 2, 2015)

Ok so the 461 is awesome. Now have we ever seen a 460 on the dyno? I'm curious since that's what most of us that build saws from junk piles still have[emoji2]


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Brad is gonna get snowed under with folks wanting a 461 done.


Glad I didn't dyno a 441, lol.


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## Trx250r180 (Feb 2, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Ok so the 461 is awesome. Now have we ever seen a 460 on the dyno? I'm curious since that's what most of us that build saws from junk piles still have[emoji2]


You would still have junk by my math ,but i am a junk man and i like junk


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You guys wondering about break in.
> 
> I tend to think the seals do more to drag down the engine than anything else. I'm sure the rings getting bedded in makes some difference, but a new set of seals really makes the crank a lot harder to spin by hand when assembling an engine.


Very true, Randy. That's why it's essential to center a crank before installing the seals. The seals put so much resistance on the crank that you can't tell when the bearings are free. Great point!


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

460 is VERY good junk in my books! Might even see a higher max HP!


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## mdavlee (Feb 2, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> You would still have junk by my math ,but i am a junk man and i like junk


I'm too poor to buy a 440 and put a top end on. I think they have gold in them somewhere


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

A 460 I don't have, but would love to see my hybrid on the dyno. I think it would have a but more HP, but also at a higher RPM. The curve would be a bit more peaky though.


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## Lignator (Feb 2, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Ok so the 461 is awesome. Now have we ever seen a 460 on the dyno? I'm curious since that's what most of us that build saws from junk piles still have[emoji2]



pretty sure that's what chad started out with was 460's


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## Lignator (Feb 2, 2015)

if someone has a stock 460, i am modding one as we type. could compare. I would love to see how much power I lost!


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## mdavlee (Feb 2, 2015)

Redfin has a hybrid that runs decent. I have a 046 but haven't done machine work yet on it.


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

Well, I do have my Dad's awesome running 1st year 046, but I won't use it.


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## wyk (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Brad is gonna get snowed under with folks wanting a 461 done.



Or chad with folks wanting a saw dynoed.


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## wyk (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Well, I do have my Dad's awesome running 1st year 046, but I won't use it.



What I want to see is a back to back 044 12 vs 10mm dyno. I have a feeling the discussions on this site and reality are two different things.


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## Lignator (Feb 2, 2015)

So what's the charge to get a saw dyno'd?


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## stihlaficionado (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Good it's not for sale.


There is always a price point for everyone & everything. It's only a matter of time & circumstance


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## HuskStihl (Feb 2, 2015)

$75


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## lone wolf (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> You guys wondering about break in.
> 
> I tend to think the seals do more to drag down the engine than anything else. I'm sure the rings getting bedded in makes some difference, but a new set of seals really makes the crank a lot harder to spin by hand when assembling an engine.


The tight bar groove adds a bit of drag in the small CC saws.


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## stihlaficionado (Feb 2, 2015)

Now I asked Brad about the 461 last year so I'm first in line for the 461


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## Turbo BBQ (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Most of the time yes. The shop I test in is huge and we have exhaust drop hoses but I find it really hard to capture the exhaust especially on a dual port muffler. I roll the dyno outside the door because the shop gets uncomfortably smokey quickly. I do a lot of cutting in the summertime then my saws sit for awhile till its cold and the ground is frozen. I feel the need to usually retune when its cold. Cold air is more dense so the saw runs leaner when its cold. I've had ported saws that felt like they could have had a larger carb when running it in super cold weather but they run fine when its warm.



Since it has been proven that without loss you can run a modified and tuned saw at peak with the muffler completely removed, build a muffler exhaust adapter for each of the various class of saw you want to run so you can control the run inside on a stand. You'll expunge the fumes, control each run and provide for an additional point to monitor pressure and temperature.....

You must monitor and control all the variables to get a consistent read.


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## wyk (Feb 2, 2015)

Turbo BBQ said:


> Since it has been proven that without loss you can run a modified and tuned saw at peak with the muffler completely removed, build a muffler exhaust adapter for each of the various class of saw you want to run so you can control the run inside on a stand. You'll expunge the fumes, control each run and provide for an additional point to monitor pressure and temperature.....
> 
> You must monitor and control all the variables to get a consistent read.



The factory exhaust, or mod thereof, is part of the read.


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## RedFir Down (Feb 2, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> The tight bar groove adds a bit of drag in the small CC saws.


So does a pinched chain.

Nice job fellas, interesting read.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE (Feb 2, 2015)

Wait a minute....

Good job bradley


----------



## Ron660 (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> .789 increase to be exact. I looked back in the weather archives and found the weather data for the August date when I tested it and yesterdays data and entered it in the calculator. .944 correction brings yesterdays stock 461 max hp to 6.4hp. 8/22/14 has a correction of 1.008 bringing its max hp to 6.04 hp
> So with the corrections added my stock 461 gained .36 hp since it was last tested. That could have very well been from a good thorough break in.


What rpms were the saws tuned to at WOT?


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Wait a minute....
> 
> Good job bradley



I agree.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

Brads 461 was still four stroking nicely at 15,400
Nice thing about the dyno Is I can easily pick up the rpm where it changes from four stroking to smoothing out. This one smoothed out at about 13,300
It's pretty cool to see on the dyno. The torque fluctuates all over the place when it's jumping back and forth at its sweet spot. They don't make power till they smooth out.


----------



## Ron660 (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Something like 45 degrees difference. I remember that august day being very cool and the archived data shows 76 deg F that day. I'm positive your 660 would pull harder now.


Chad, have you checked your stock 660 recently on the dyno? I'd like to see if there were any changes since the first tests.


----------



## Ron660 (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Brads 461 was still four stroking nicely at 15,400


WOW that's smoking. Wonder if the dyno results would be different if tested at 14400 rather than 15400? Different torque curve?


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Chad, have you checked your stock 660 recently on the dyno? I'd like to see if there were any changes since the first tests.


Nope. It's currently jugless


----------



## 1 stihl nut (Feb 2, 2015)

Turbo BBQ said:


> Since it has been proven that without loss you can run a modified and tuned saw at peak with the muffler completely removed, build a muffler exhaust adapter for each of the various class of saw you want to run so you can control the run inside on a stand. You'll expunge the fumes, control each run and provide for an additional point to monitor pressure and temperature.....
> 
> You must monitor and control all the variables to get a consistent read.




If I was going to have a saw dynoed, I would want it done with the exhaust that it was going to wear in the field.

Otherwise it seems you are adding a variable in order to get rid of a variable.

The one you are adding is one the saw will never normally see, and would likely affect the shape of the power curve by operating with unknown flow and backpressure.

The variable you are trying to get rid does not go away any unless you can control not only temperature but also humidity and barometric pressure.

Anyhow. ..great work on the chart , and thanks again! !!


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Brads 461 was still four stroking nicely at 15,400
> Nice thing about the dyno Is I can easily pick up the rpm where it changes from four stroking to smoothing out. This one smoothed out at about 13,300
> It's pretty cool to see on the dyno. The torque fluctuates all over the place when it's jumping back and forth at its sweet spot. They don't make power till they smooth out.





Ron660 said:


> WOW that's smoking. Wonder if the dyno results would be different if tested at 14400 rather than 15400? Different torque curve?


That surprised me as well. I hadn't run this saw since last fall, so hadn't had a tach on it recently. I was curious Chad, was that with your tach or the one that's mounted on the saw?


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> That surprised me as well. I hadn't run this saw since last fall, so hadn't had a tach on it recently. I was curious Chad, was that with your tach or the one that's mounted on the saw?


The one on the saw. I use a shaft rpm sensor for my dyno calculations.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

So it matched your dyno? The reason I ask is because I don't trust those like mounted on the saw. I saw them read high and jump all over the place. As long as the tune sounds like you described, that's all that really matters. I suspect the tune was actually closer the 14,500.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Feb 2, 2015)

Awesome work Chad!! Brad your saw ran okay I guess.

I have always been a firm believer, that a well broken in saw is a different animal.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> So it matched your dyno? The reason I ask is because I don't trust those like mounted on the saw. I saw them read high and jump all over the place. As long as the tune sounds like you described, that's all that really matters. I suspect the tune was actually closer the 14,500.


Could be it was off. To be honest I was looking at the shaft rpms not saw rpms. It was a little jumpy though before testing. I always put on a 8 tooth Sprocket on the saw and the driven pump Sprocket is a 24 pin. I use it to set the saw rpm not the saws tach. 4333 shaft rpms is 13000 saw rpms 4000 is 12000 and so on.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Feb 2, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Awesome work Chad!! Brad your saw ran okay I guess.
> 
> I have always been a firm believer, that a well broken in saw is a different animal.



I highly agree! I can tell a big difference with a ''loose'' saw over a tight new one.

They run freeer (is that a word lol), rev faster, and make more power.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Feb 2, 2015)

Is this the strongest 461 to have been on your dyno chad?


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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

fastLeo151 said:


> Is this the strongest 461 to have been on your dyno chad?


It's strong but the other one was also strong. I would never make that assumption unless I had both saws to run at the same time. Probably not necessary. I don't want to cause a fight.


----------



## fastLeo151 (Feb 2, 2015)

I just was curious what the numbers were. I don't care to start a fight either just looking at the pudding.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

I would love to host a saw build off dyno style.


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## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

No fights from me. 

Looks like Brad's is stronger to me. 

I'm still wondering about that weird spot at the end of the run on Keith's saw though. Whatever that was made his saw fall off before it really should have. 

We'll prolly never know what caused that though.......


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Feb 2, 2015)

one thing is sure here, a 461 can be a very strong saw. it pretty good out the box.........i need another one lol.


----------



## KG441c (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No fights from me.
> 
> Looks like Brad's is stronger to me.
> 
> ...


Randy it had some sort of hesitation before it hit full rpm which myself and Chad both noticed. When I got the saw back it was flooding badly . I cleaned the carb and found the choke shaft was sticking and not rotating freely at all. After cleaning everything havent noticed the hesitation to full rpm since. Runs like a wildcat!!


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> No fights from me.
> 
> Looks like Brad's is stronger to me.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't make that assumption Randy. Yours squeaked out a tiny bit more at max hp at 10,000 rpms if you look at % gained vs stock. Different fuel was used on that test back then. Nobody can make that call unless both saws are run at the same time with the same fuel.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> one thing is sure here, a 461 can be a very strong saw. it pretty good out the box.........i need another one lol.


Amen brotha


----------



## KG441c (Feb 2, 2015)

Chad got a question. Do u remember where u tuned my saw to wot? Seems like I remember 13800? When I got that saw back it was 4 stroking out to 15000 and didnt clean up until about 15200 to 15400. I actually called Randy and ask him where the heck to tune the thing since it was 4 stroking out so high. Wonder if my saw woulda been tuned to 15400 for the dyno test if that woulda made a difference?


----------



## Stihl 041S (Feb 2, 2015)

Duane(Pa) said:


> Chad, I have said this before: get a patent on that beach. The guy that invented the push button socket release for the Craftsman ratchet got screwed royally by missing out on patent rights... etc.


He actually sued. 
He won because he didn't work in R&D. Not part of his job. 
It was years later. 
At least that's the story I heard. $61million I think.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Chad got a question. Do u remember where u tuned my saw to wot? Seems like I remember 13800? When I got that saw back it was 4 stroking out to 15000 and didnt clean up until about 15200 to 15400. I actually called Randy and ask him where the heck to tune the thing since it was 4 stroking out so high. Wonder if my saw woulda been tuned to 15400 for the dyno test if that woulda made a difference?


I't could have possibly been a tad leaner. I like to tune them so I hear them clear up on the dyno loaded to 1000-1500 rpms lower than unloaded top speed.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I't could have possibly been a tad leaner. I like to tune them so I hear them clear up on the dyno loaded to 1000-1500 rpms lower than unloaded top speed.


I've been burned before trying to squeak out more power by leaning them out a bit more. That was a while ago. I've learned a lot since then.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I wouldn't make that assumption Randy. Yours squeaked out a tiny bit more at max hp at 10,000 rpms if you look at % gained vs stock. Different fuel was used on that test back then. Nobody can make that call unless both saws are run at the same time with the same fuel.





chadihman said:


> .789 increase to be exact. I looked back in the weather archives and found the weather data for the August date when I tested it and yesterdays data and entered it in the calculator. .944 correction brings yesterdays stock 461 max hp to 6.4hp. 8/22/14 has a correction of 1.008 bringing its max hp to 6.04 hp
> *So with the corrections added my stock 461 gained .36 hp since it was last tested. That could have very well been from a good thorough break in*.



Wasn't your saw new, not broken in at that time? Correction factors earlier showed your saw to have picked up quite a bit of HP since then.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

KG441c said:


> Chad got a question. Do u remember where u tuned my saw to wot? Seems like I remember 13800? When I got that saw back it was 4 stroking out to 15000 and didnt clean up until about 15200 to 15400. I actually called Randy and ask him where the heck to tune the thing since it was 4 stroking out so high. Wonder if my saw woulda been tuned to 15400 for the dyno test if that woulda made a difference?


I'm quite confident this saw wasn't actually turning 15,400. I previously told the owner of this saw that his tach wasn't reading right. Besides, I've never seen one of my 461s turn that many RPMs. I think we can lay that to rest.


----------



## Stihl 041S (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> A 460 I don't have, but would love to see my hybrid on the dyno. I think it would have a but more HP, but also at a higher RPM. The curve would be a bit more peaky though.


Well send one that's laying around.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Wasn't your saw new, not broken in at that time? Correction factors earlier showed your saw to have picked up quite a bit of HP since then.


It was fairly new then. It had more run time this past summer and fall than it had before. I'm also a believer that todays oils make it more of a challenge to break a saw in quickly. A heavy load is what they need. A loaded engine has more force on the piston at ignition through its down stroke. The rings are forced out against the cylinder with more force as the pressure increases with load.


----------



## KG441c (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I'm quite confident this saw wasn't actually turning 15,400. I previously told the owner of this saw that his tach wasn't reading right. Besides, I've never seen one of my 461s turn that many RPMs. I think we can lay that to rest.


No doubt and way around it my saw with a stihl edt 8 was turning 15400 and still 4 stroking around 15000 or so. When I called Randy and ask him what to tune to he recommended me to not run it like that so I backed it down to 14200


----------



## KG441c (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I'm quite confident this saw wasn't actually turning 15,400. I previously told the owner of this saw that his tach wasn't reading right. Besides, I've never seen one of my 461s turn that many RPMs. I think we can lay that to rest.


So the hybrid will turn more rpm Brad? Seems I remember on one of your videos seeing the hybrid tuned to 15400?


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

KG441c said:


> So the hybrid will turn more rpm Brad? Seems I remember on one of your videos seeing the hybrid tuned to 15400?


Yes, my hybrid does turn more RPMs. I'd have to look back at that vid, but I think you might be right.


----------



## barneyrb (Feb 2, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I wouldn't make that assumption Randy. Yours squeaked out a tiny bit more at max hp at 10,000 rpms if you look at % gained vs stock. Different fuel was used on that test back then. Nobody can make that call unless both saws are run at the same time with the same fuel.



Like you said, way too many variables. Temp, humidity, fuel, oil ratio, and others. They affect not only the saw but also the dyno.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

I just went back and looked. The 461 was tuned to 14,800 and the 440/460 to 15,500.


----------



## KG441c (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I just went back and looked. The 461 was tuned to 14,800 and the 440/460 to 15,500.


7 pin on both?


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

KG441c said:


> 7 pin on both?


I ran both 7 and 8 on both saws. 8-pins should be reserved for only the very strongest 90cc saws and bigger when in big wood.


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 2, 2015)

I have a 460 I would send  I've said it before and I'll say it again.


Nice saw Brad. It's gonna be a runner for sure!


----------



## wigglesworth (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I ran both 7 and 8 on both saws. 8-pins should be reserved for only the very strongest 90cc saws and bigger when in big wood.



And 65cc saws...


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## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> And 65cc saws...



But that saw's not normal, lol


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

All this time I thought Young was a midget.


----------



## Mastermind (Feb 2, 2015)

Y'all told me he was. 

I feel cheated somehow.


----------



## wigglesworth (Feb 2, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> But that saw's not normal, lol



Yea. It's waaay slow compared to my 372...


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 2, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Yea. It's waaay slow compared to my 372...


That 365 is one of those *X*tra s*P*ecial saws!


----------



## LowVolt (Feb 2, 2015)




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## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

DexterDay said:


> I have a 460 I would send  I've said it before and I'll say it again.
> 
> 
> Nice saw Brad. It's gonna be a runner for sure!


Ok so what are we doing here? Stock 460 vs stock 461? Where is right about there anyhow?


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 2, 2015)

My 460 is not stock. .

But I'd send it anyway.  My dime both ways plus your fees.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 2, 2015)

DexterDay said:


> My 460 is not stock. .
> 
> But I'd send it anyway.  My dime both ways plus your fees.


Deal. Is it ported?


----------



## fastLeo151 (Feb 2, 2015)

I got a mm 461 and 460 if you need one.


----------



## HuskStihl (Feb 2, 2015)

I got a monkey-logic 394 and a Prius I'd like to have you compare


----------



## drf255 (Feb 3, 2015)

Great job Brad.


----------



## wyk (Feb 3, 2015)

Mastermind said:


> Y'all told me he was.
> 
> I feel cheated somehow.



He is. That is a repainted Shindaiwa 488 in his hands.

Whatcha think bout his height and his porting now?


----------



## Perry pioneer (Feb 3, 2015)

OK now let's see a video of that mofo in some wood vs stock that should be a real show!


----------



## chadihman (Feb 3, 2015)

OK guys. I went back through some of my papers and found I changed my calculations that are in my spreadsheet. Duh stupid me. I guess I'd figure the stock 461 of mine did gain a little but not that much. Still the gain over stock still stands true. Do not compare my old graphs with new ones. 
Naturally my dyno has some drag and the hp lower than expected on all saws. I ran multiple stock saws and reviewed my results and compared them to Stihls hp specs. I then did some calculations and came up with a # that all my hp #s get multiplied by to get a more realistic #. I'm sticking with this calculation now.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2015)

Wasn't that change before any of the 461 tests? I believe you sorted that out when testing the 660. Before that, your numbers were coming out too high. Your numbers were matching factory specs well before your last 461 run. Factory spec is 5.9, almost exactly what yours ran in August.

ENGINE POWER
4.4 kW (5.9 bhp)


----------



## chadihman (Feb 3, 2015)

I'm working now so I'll have to wait till I get home to check. I think I might have picked the wrong saved spreadsheet on my laptop. If I can I'll run the data again in the same spreadsheet I was using before


----------



## wigglesworth (Feb 3, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm working now so I'll have to wait till I get home to check. I think I might have picked the wrong saved spreadsheet on my laptop. If I can I'll run the data again in the same spreadsheet I was using before



I can see a stock saw loosening up quite a bit. Heck, I've seen it myself. But .75hp increase? That's a crap ton...


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I looked back in the weather archives and found the weather data for the August date when I tested it and yesterdays data and entered it in the calculator. .944 correction brings yesterdays stock 461 max hp to 6.4hp. 8/22/14 has a correction of 1.008 bringing its max hp to 6.04 hp
> *So with the corrections added my stock 461 gained .36 hp since it was last tested. *That could have very well been from a good thorough break in.





wigglesworth said:


> I can see a stock saw loosening up quite a bit. Heck, I've seen it myself. But .75hp increase? That's a crap ton...


It was only .36 HP gain after weather corrections. That I can see.


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 3, 2015)

.4 HP is more than you might think on a small engine. You probably also noticed an increase in throttle response, which might feel like more power.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 3, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> .4 HP is more than you might think on a small engine. You probably also noticed an increase in throttle response, which might feel like more power.


+1


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 3, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Deal. Is it ported?



Yes sir.. It is..  

I will PM you later for shipping info.


----------



## Tree Sling'r (Feb 3, 2015)

Impressive Brad. Good job.


----------



## nikb47 (Feb 3, 2015)

All bs aside, nice curve.


----------



## Lignator (Feb 3, 2015)




----------



## big t double (Feb 3, 2015)

redbull660 said:


> Ok I've got a question and I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble here.
> 
> So when I broke in my 461 (bought brand new). Honestly it was just a DOG for the first 3-5 tanks. *Around tank 6-8 it just* *became a totally different saw*.
> 
> So if the dyno is saying broken in 461 gained just ~.4 more horsepower over a new saw.... then there has to be something missing here? Cuz a .4 horsepower gain...to me anyway, doesn't explain the difference I saw.


Your opinion is smelly...like butthole. Don't you have some bars to sell.


----------



## Deets066 (Feb 3, 2015)

I bet he does


----------



## wigglesworth (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm working now so I'll have to wait till I get home to check. I think I might have picked the wrong saved spreadsheet on my laptop. If I can I'll run the data again in the same spreadsheet I was using before



Get a chance to figure it out?


----------



## nmurph (Feb 4, 2015)

Aren't you at work?


----------



## wigglesworth (Feb 4, 2015)

nmurph said:


> Aren't you at work?



Hey... Errbody's gotta eat lunch!! Lol


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

redbull660 said:


> .4 hp on the total is only about a 5% gain. Going from dog to wow this is pretty nice ...gotta be more than just 5%.
> 
> There should be like a 10 tank min before any saw is tested. IMHO  That way we know it's all broken in etc etc etc.


I would like to have them all broken in before I get them.


redbull660 said:


> Ok I've got a question and I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble here.
> 
> So when I broke in my 461 (bought brand new). Honestly it was just a DOG for the first 3-5 tanks. *Around tank 6-8 it just* *became a totally different saw*.
> 
> So if the dyno is saying broken in 461 gained just ~.4 more horsepower over a new saw.... then there has to be something missing here? Cuz a .4 horsepower gain...to me anyway, doesn't explain the difference I saw.


.4 HP on a 6 HP saw is 6.6% gain. That would be like boosting a 300 HP engine to 320 HP


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

wigglesworth said:


> Get a chance to figure it out?


Yep. My #'s stand true. I went back to the saved spreadsheet from the ported 461 I tested back in August and input my stock #'s from this past weekend and come up with the same #'s. So there was only a .36 HP gain after the #'s were plugged into the Weather calculator. I'm guessing the stock gain of .36 HP came from the heavy use of my 461 with a 36" bar since it was last tested.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm home with my sick three year old today so I'll probably be here a bunch today.

I did a couple calculations that might put some things into perspective.

Stock 461 VS Snellrized 461
9,000 rpms = 15.1% gain= 300 HP engine boosted to 345 HP
10,000 rpms = 20.8% gain= 300 HP engine boosted to 362 HP
11,000 rpms = 26.8% gain= 300 HP engine boosted to 380 HP
12,000 rpms = 49.2% gain= 300 HP engine boosted to 447 HP
13,000 rpms = 58.6% gain= 300 HP engine boosted to 476 HP


----------



## Moparmyway (Feb 4, 2015)

big t double said:


> Your opinion is smelly...like butthole.



So you smell buttholes ....... 

I would rather smell some R50 mixxed with VP burning in my saw as I cut some wood


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks for checking that out Chad. I'm a fan of the weather corrected numbers. That's the second best option to a climate controlled environment. Well, third best...to having all saws there at the same time, lol. I like the sounds of a dyno GTG


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm getting bombarded with dyno run request's. I cant do it for free. My time is to valuable and time it takes. Whats a fair # to charge?


----------



## blsnelling (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm getting bombarded with dyno run request's. I cant do it for free. My time is to valuable and time it takes. Whats a fare # to charge?


How long does it take you? Are still planning on going full auto on the setup?


----------



## CR888 (Feb 4, 2015)

Chad could offer customers a special bit of paper with graphs and stuff so we have written proof of how tough our saws are.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> How long does it take you? Are still planning on going full auto on the setup?


First I fill the saw with my fuel. 40-1 92 E free. I fill with bar oil and put a bar and chain on to tune it by ear. Then it takes me 15-20 min to bolt the saw on and set up my equipment. The run saw is running for six or seven minutes on the dyno from warm up till all testing is all done. I adjust the flow control to dial the saw into the desired loaded rpm then I idle it down and reset my scale. It goes much faster if I run in 1000 rpm stages rather than 500. I'm going to say it's 25-30 minutes a saw. Then I review the data from a video camera aimed at my rpm and scale. I take the data from every rpm level and plug it into my spreadsheet. Then I plug the spreadsheet hp #s into a graph maker. That's at least another half hour. So about an hour till it's all said and done. That doesn't include my drive to work and back home again or packing the saw back up and arranging shipping back to its owner.

I'm torn on weather I want to spend $1500 to upgrade it to a fancy data recording system. It would be sweet. I'd just run the saw in a one minute or less sweep and it would put it all onto a graph instantly with weather calculations already done.


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm getting bombarded with dyno run request's. I cant do it for free. My time is to valuable and time it takes. Whats a fare # to charge?



Personally? I think it's best that you come up with that number?

I know what my time is worth to me...

Take total time, energy, etc and pretend like you were going to do this for 8 hrs. Now? Is that what you would be happy to make in an 8 hr day? Then add more to it 

Everyone can account for their time differently. Only you can tell us what "your" time is worth.

I never got that PM out to you last night. Had a lot going on. I am home today as well, so I will reply to any PM pretty promptly. So if you have not received another offer of a ported 460?

I have this one..


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm not responsible for anybody's hot rod saw that blows up on my dyno. If it cant handle the dyno it shouldn't be considered a work saw. I ran somewhere around 5 gals of fuel through my 660 for cylinder tests and the saw shows no sign of wear.


----------



## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm not responsible for anybody's hot rod saw that blows up on my dyno. If it cant handle the dyno it shouldn't be considered a work saw. I ran somewhere around 5 gals of fuel through my 660 for cylinder tests and the saw shows no sign of wear.


Why would you think a ported work saw, running on proper fuel, would blow up on your machine?


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Why would you think a ported work saw, running on proper fuel, would blow up on your machine?


I have no clue what's inside saws that aren't mine. I never had one blow up on the dyno but it could happen just like they can anywhere else. I've done temperature tests and found my 660 maxed out in Temps in one minute loaded on the dyno.


----------



## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I have no clue what's inside saws that aren't mine. I never had one blow up on the dyno but it could happen just like they can anywhere else. I've done temperature tests and found my 660 maxed out in Temps in one minute loaded on the dyno.


Well something made you feel the need to post that..?? 
What was it?


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Sh#t happens ya know. I'd rather not pay for a saw and port job.


----------



## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Wait a minute. I lied.  I did have a crank lower rod bearing blow shortly after being dyno run on my MS460. It was a China crank. Friggin junk.


----------



## nmurph (Feb 4, 2015)

Bet that cost more than a ported saw.


----------



## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

nmurph said:


> Bet that cost more than a ported saw.


That was ugly...


----------



## AKDoug (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm getting bombarded with dyno run request's. I cant do it for free. My time is to valuable and time it takes. Whats a fair # to charge?


My shop rate is $75 an hour. I personally wouldn't do it for less than that.


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## stihl sawing (Feb 4, 2015)

If you're going to charge for these Dyno test, I would strongly suggest you get a form stating you are not responsible for saws that come apart during testing and get the sender to sign it before the test starts. Might save you a few headaches down the road. Things do happen on dyno testing.


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

And another one to scare ya


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## rdtreewalker (Feb 4, 2015)

How much can your dyno handle?


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

Work saw...
28" bar / 8 pin

Aren't you in the least bit curious?
9 hp?
9.5 hp?
Hmmmmm??????


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

I want badly to build a cheap hot saw and load it down till it blows to smithereens on the dyno.


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## Duane(Pa) (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Sh#t happens ya know. I'd rather not pay for a saw and port job.



See these dreams everytime I sit in the bleachers at the Tractor Pull. I want to die of old age, not cast iron through the skull..... I still show up and watch, but I think thoughts, and wonder about where and how some of that stuff is put together.....


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## old-cat (Feb 4, 2015)

Till which one blows?!!!


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I want badly to build a cheap hot saw and load it down till it blows to smithereens on the dyno.


Define "hot saw"...
There are gas saws, and there are saws running on alky nitro..
Would not advise running nitro on the dyno. They can get hot..
Gas should be no problem with proper tune. They work all day with no whimpers...


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

rdtreewalker said:


> How much can your dyno handle?


Don't know. I blew the first hydraulic pump up with a 660. Then I reworked it with a higher displacement pump and a much heavier love joy coupler. I've run a couple ported 660's pushing close to 9hp with this set up.


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 400723
> 
> 
> Work saw...
> ...


I'm very curious. Do you dare?


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Define "hot saw"...
> There are gas saws, and there are saws running on alky nitro..
> Would not advise running nitro on the dyno. They can get hot..
> Gas should be no problem with proper tune. They work all day with no whimpers...


A hot saw to me is a saw made for racing only because of fear it will blow in work saw conditions.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'm very curious. Do you dare?


Went out and talked to the old girl...
She says she ain't scared of that contraption... 
Hope she don't break it..


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 400723
> 
> 
> Work saw...
> ...


Yep that's a work saw if it works


old-cat said:


> Till which one blows?!!!


Well I like chainsaws but not that much.


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## Ray Bell (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Sh#t happens ya know. I'd rather not pay for a saw and port job.



Yikes, do you stand behind a bullet proof glass window while testing these?


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

When's the dyno day?


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Feb 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> When's the dyno day?




I liked to see them dynoed for comparison of different builders. Then put in the same wood with same chains where it counts for the REAL world testing.


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## rdtreewalker (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> View attachment 400723
> 
> 
> Work saw...
> ...



This the same saw? I asked the person who built this one was it stronger than a 385 and he said yes. Don't you have both?


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

rdtreewalker said:


> This the same saw? I asked the person who built this one was it stronger than a 385 and he said yes. Don't you have both?



Yup.. But the 385 went to work on a logging crew... Still running.. I fixed a broken AV spring on it last weekend..
This 064 is stronger..


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## rdtreewalker (Feb 4, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Yup.. But the 385 went to work on a logging crew... Still running.. I fixed a broken AV spring on it last weekend..
> This 064 is stronger..



That 385 was stout treemonkey did that one. I'd love to run that 064 some day. No videos of that thing wearing a long bar do you?


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

rdtreewalker said:


> That 385 was stout treemonkey did that one. I'd love to run that 064 some day. No videos of that thing wearing a long bar do you?


Not that I know of.. 28 is what it wears on a daily basis. Never hung anything bigger on it..


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## Stihl 041S (Feb 4, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> My shop rate is $75 an hour. I personally wouldn't do it for less than that.


That seems about right. 
And a release. 
I was in R&D for 15 years. Broke everything we made. 
Strange things break during testing. 
You built the Dyno. They built the saw. 
Each responsible for their own.


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> When's the dyno day?


Definitely not until I get set up with an auto data system. You guys would be bored out of your minds waiting for hp graphs.


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Definitely not until I get set up with an auto data system. You guys would be bored out of your minds waiting for hp graphs.


We'd be fine. While you're doing that we could be putting it in a test log or eating pie


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> We'd be fine. While you're doing that we could be putting it in a test log or eating pie


Thanks a lot.... I like pie too ya know.


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Thanks a lot.... I like pie too ya know.


I could probably make sure you get a piece


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> I could probably make sure you get a piece


But not till the graphs are done...


We call that..

"Incentive"


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

I could possibly make some of these for a free run on the dyno [emoji2]


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## Duane(Pa) (Feb 4, 2015)

Dyno = Humble Pie!


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## Ron660 (Feb 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> We'd be fine. While you're doing that we could be putting it in a test log or eating pie


Mdavlee, how about some more chain videos? 3/8 vs 404 with a 390xp or 395?


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## Ron660 (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> Definitely not until I get set up with an auto data system. You guys would be bored out of your minds waiting for hp graphs.


Chad, is your dyno bar setup universal? Will it fit a Husky or a modification is needed?


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Chad, is your dyno bar setup universal? Will it fit a Husky or a modification is needed?


I don't think I have to modify it but I will if needed.


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Mdavlee, how about some more chain videos? 3/8 vs 404 with a 390xp or 395?


Maybe in March. I don't have anything bigger than a 046 that is in one piece right now. I have a 36" loop of .404" but not a tip for my cannon bar to try it on longer bars.


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## showrguy (Feb 4, 2015)

chad, 
are you going to make the pa. gtg this spring ??
i noticed you did'nt come last year...........we're only about 40 min's apart..
and please don't feel obligated to bring your dyno thingy,,,,,,,,,
actually, i'd rather you leave it at home so you could enjoy yourself......


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## chadihman (Feb 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> chad,
> are you going to make the pa. gtg this spring ??
> i noticed you did'nt come last year...........we're only about 40 min's apart..
> and please don't feel obligated to bring your dyno thingy,,,,,,,,,
> actually, i'd rather you leave it at home so you could enjoy yourself......


I'd like to be there. If I update the dyno with a data recorder then I'll bring the dyno and run some saws. If not I'll do a demonstration.


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## Moparmyway (Feb 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Maybe in March. I don't have anything bigger than a 046 that is in one piece right now. I have a 36" loop of .404" but not a tip for my cannon bar to try it on longer bars.


You never know when a 90cc will show up ...................


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You never know when a 90cc will show up ...................[emoji14]opcorn2:


True. I'm always looking for them too.


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## Moparmyway (Feb 4, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Mdavlee, how about some more chain videos? 3/8 vs 404 with a 390xp or 395?


Biggest thing I noticed is the size of the rims.
A 7 tooth .404 is about the size of an 8 tooth .375

You need more grunt to pull the .404 .................


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## mdavlee (Feb 4, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Biggest thing I noticed is the size of the rims.
> A 7 tooth .404 is about the size of an 8 tooth .375
> 
> You need more grunt to pull the .404 .................


Yep. I liked the Oregon CJX chain they used to make. Almost .404" cutters on 3/8" chassis. Made a nice wide kerf.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 4, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You never know when a 90cc will show up ...................


Or 122 cc...


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## Duane(Pa) (Feb 4, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'd like to be there. If I update the dyno with a data recorder then I'll bring the dyno and run some saws. If not I'll do a demonstration.


I remember you had an obligation with work or family last year. Hope we get to see you this time. Chuck, did You have any thoughts on a date?


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## showrguy (Feb 5, 2015)

Duane(Pa) said:


> I remember you had an obligation with work or family last year. Hope we get to see you this time. Chuck, did You have any thoughts on a date?


i was thinkin 2nd saturday in may, the 9th............


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## blsnelling (Feb 5, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Yup.. But the 385 went to work on a logging crew... Still running.. I fixed a broken AV spring on it last weekend..
> This 064 is stronger..


I've got a 390 that ain't skeered


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## blsnelling (Feb 5, 2015)

I like where this thread is going. I'd love to see a dyno GTG and for you to take your dyno to the next level


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## chadihman (Feb 5, 2015)

Well if I knew I'd make back $1500 I'd update my dyno. I have over $1000 in it as of now.


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## blsnelling (Feb 5, 2015)

I think you could do that easily with one or two dyno GTGs. It'd probably take a while through shipping only. The back and forth shipping makes it hurt a lot worse.


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## Ron660 (Feb 5, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I've got a 390 that ain't skeered


 Brad, any guess on the HP of a ported 390?


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## blsnelling (Feb 5, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Brad, any guess on the HP of a ported 390?


Hmmm. I'll go 8.5 @ 10,500.


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## mdavlee (Feb 5, 2015)

I would like to send a saw or two myself. I just need some time to finish one up that I'm collecting parts for.


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## Ron660 (Feb 5, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Hmmm. I'll go 8.5 @ 10,500.


 Sounds good....probably close. Does the factory 390xp's have limiters on the carb?


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## blsnelling (Feb 5, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Sounds good....probably close. Does the factory 390xp's have limiters on the carb?


Yes. I install an unlimited coil on them to make them easier to tune, and to keep an ear on the tune while working.


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## LowVolt (Feb 5, 2015)

I got $10 for the upgrades.

$1490 to go.......


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## HuskStihl (Feb 5, 2015)

I had already set u'r dyno fee at $75. I'd also need you to sign a release stating that if (when) my 394 melted u'r dyno, I wouldn't be held responsible!


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## showrguy (Feb 5, 2015)

LowVolt said:


> I got $10 for the upgrades.
> 
> $1490 to go.......


cheapass,
i'll give $100.00 for the upgrades..

$1390.00 to go.


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## chadihman (Feb 5, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I had already set u'r dyno fee at $75. I'd also need you to sign a release stating that if (when) my 394 melted u'r dyno, I wouldn't be held responsible!


If your 394 melted on my dyno I'd call it a P.O.S.


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## Rx7man (Feb 5, 2015)

Very nice! I'd love to do dyno work, but am too cheap to spring for it. I know the feel of my Husky 65 changed dramatically for the better throughout the RPM range with the noobie porting job I did on it.. Dyno graphs are indispensable tools for engine work.


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## Ron660 (Feb 5, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Yes. I install an unlimited coil on them to make them easier to tune, and to keep an ear on the tune while working.


Why do you think the 390xp's are faster the


HuskStihl said:


> I had already set u'r dyno fee at $75. I'd also need you to sign a release stating that if (when) my 394 melted u'r dyno, I wouldn't be held responsible!


Chad, is a ported 660 the largest "cc" saw you've tested on your dyno? I'd bet a ported 394 or 395 has more torque, and HP, than a ported 660. I'm sure a ported 880 would be even more. 880 vs a 3120 might push your dyno to the max!


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## blsnelling (Feb 6, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Why do you think the 390xp's are faster...


Faster than what?


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## chadihman (Feb 6, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Why do you think the 390xp's are faster the
> 
> Chad, is a ported 660 the largest "cc" saw you've tested on your dyno? I'd bet a ported 394 or 395 has more torque, and HP, than a ported 660. I'm sure a ported 880 would be even more. 880 vs a 3120 might push your dyno to the max!


Yes a couple ported 660's were no problem for my dyno to make them beg for mercy.


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## chadihman (Feb 6, 2015)

I'll have to go back and review the pump specs again. If it blows I'll build it stronger. Actually might be better to have one for big ported saws. I'm still running the same cutter less chain. It's 3/8. 050 maybe. 404 would be better for the big boys.


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## Ron660 (Feb 6, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I'll have to go back a d review the pump specs again. If it blows I'll build it stronger. Actually might be better to have one for big ported saws. I'm still running the same cutter less chain. It's 3/8. 050 maybe. 404 would be better for the big boys.


 I'm considering trying a 404 on my ported 660 with .063 gauge.


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## Ron660 (Feb 6, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Faster than what?


 Faster than similar sized Stihl's (ported 660 vs ported 390xp)? Do Huskies have a shorter piston stroke? If so, is this an advantage?


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## blsnelling (Feb 6, 2015)

Ron660 said:


> Faster than similar sized Stihl's (ported 660 vs ported 390xp)? Do Huskies have a shorter piston stroke? If so, is this an advantage?


Yes, the 390 will be faster. It's a much more modern quad port design. The 390 is just an over grown 372/346 and runs accordingly.


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## Deererainman (Feb 6, 2015)

Hedgerow said:


> Well something made you feel the need to post that..??
> What was it?
> View attachment 400721


I don't know about chainsaw dyno's, but used to have a tractor PTO dyno. It puts a heavy strain on the equipment, maybe more so than normal use because are driving/pushing the equipment to it's absolute limits.


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## chadihman (Feb 6, 2015)

Deererainman said:


> I don't know about chainsaw dyno's, but used to have a tractor PTO dyno. It puts a heavy strain on the equipment, maybe more so than normal use because are driving/pushing the equipment to it's absolute limits.


I run tractors on dyno's all the time at work. It does not strain a true working tractor more than what it was intended for. On Saturday I ran a 360 hp New Holland T8.360 on our dyno and the performance monitor in the tractor said it was at 100% engine load at rated test pull down rpm. Yesterday I had that same tractor hooked to a 12 row pivot planter and moved it to a location down the road 2 miles. The performance monitor said 118% engine load when pulling Hills at road speed.


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## Deererainman (Feb 6, 2015)

chadihman said:


> I run tractors on dyno's all the time at work. It does not strain a true working tractor more than what it was intended for. On Saturday I ran a 360 hp New Holland T8.360 on our dyno and the performance monitor in the tractor said it was at 100% engine load at rated test pull down rpm. Yesterday I had that same tractor hooked to a 12 row pivot planter and moved it to a location down the road 2 miles. The performance monitor said 118% engine load when pulling Hills at road speed.


I must have been mistaken. I thought you were testing to maximum levels not 100% rating. My experience is with 2 cylinder Deere's. Stroked & bored then tested for maximum output and all we had was the needle on the dyno, the rpm gauge and temp gauge. Most importantly our ears. We were taking stock JD G's up to 120hp at the PTO.


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## 1 stihl nut (Feb 6, 2015)

Deererainman said:


> I must have been mistaken. I thought you were testing to maximum levels not 100% rating. My experience is with 2 cylinder Deere's. Stroked & bored then tested for maximum output and all we had was the needle on the dyno, the rpm gauge and temp gauge. Most importantly our ears. We were taking stock JD G's up to 120hp at the PTO.



If you are testing a tractor that has a clutch and cooling system design for less than 50 hp and you hop it up to 120 hp and run it ar full load, then of course you are going to put a strain on things.

These saws are putting out more than their rated hp, but it's still within the parameters of what the chassis can handle. After all, they are still worksaws and can be used hour after hour. If they couldn't, these builders wouldn't be so busy.


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## Haywire Haywood (Feb 6, 2015)

That's a very smooth uniform power curve there Brad.  Nice work.

Ian


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## Deererainman (Feb 6, 2015)

chadihman said:


> This an MS 660 on the dyno taken a while back less the electronic testing equipment. I also added an electric fan on the oil cooler.


Chad, That's a nice looking set up.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 6, 2015)

Deererainman said:


> I must have been mistaken. I thought you were testing to maximum levels not 100% rating. My experience is with 2 cylinder Deere's. Stroked & bored then tested for maximum output and all we had was the needle on the dyno, the rpm gauge and temp gauge. Most importantly our ears. We were taking stock JD G's up to 120hp at the PTO.


Love the sound of a big bore G in the morning...
Surprised they didn't shell the PTO.
My R did...


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## lwn9186 (Feb 6, 2015)

Chad
Your pricing also needs to reflect the wear and tear on the dyno itself as well. Don't short yourself.


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## Husqavarna Guy (Feb 6, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Yes, the 390 will be faster. It's a much more modern quad port design. The 390 is just an over grown 372/346 and runs accordingly.



Brad how do you compare a ported 390 vs a ported 395? Also is the 395 a quad port or dual port?


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## blsnelling (Feb 7, 2015)

A 390 will be faster than a 395 until the wood gets big, then the torque of the 395 will take over. The 390 makes more RPMs. Both are quad port cylinders, but of different design. The 390 transfer draw directly from the base of the cylinder where as the 395 takes in through the cylinder wall like a MS660. Both are great saws.


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## blsnelling (Jun 13, 2015)

Here's another brand new MS461R I ported today. It's tuned to 15K and still 4-stroking good. It's holding 12,500-12,700 in the first cut.


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## nikb47 (Jun 13, 2015)

Blip blip nice


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## Deets066 (Jun 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Here's another brand new MS461R I ported today. It's tuned to 15K and still 4-stroking good. It's holding 12,500-12,700 in the first cut.



Sounds awesome as usual Brad! Is that just a dp cover or are both ports opened way up?


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jun 13, 2015)

To think some guy missin most of his teeth is gonna end up with that POS...what a shame.


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## big t double (Jun 13, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> To think some guy missin most of his teeth is gonna end up with that POS...what a shame.


If you feel that bad about it then have it sent to Illinois.


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## blsnelling (Jun 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Sounds awesome as usual Brad! Is that just a dp cover or are both ports opened way up?


Both are opened up, and have large mesh screens.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jun 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> Both are opened up, and have large mesh screens.



Do you like that screen i use brad ? , Dan found it somewhere , i use it in everything.


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## blsnelling (Jun 13, 2015)

I sure do. I'd like to know where to source some.


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## LowVolt (Jun 13, 2015)

blsnelling said:


> I sure do. I'd like to know where to source some.


Is this it???

http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-Performance-ALL22265-Opening-Stainless/dp/B00F0BO0L4


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## blsnelling (Jun 13, 2015)

This stuff doesn't fall apart like the other screen I've seen.


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## Deets066 (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't use any screen,


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## Deets066 (Jun 14, 2015)

I know that it's necessary for some people though


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jun 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I know that it's necessary for some people though



The stuff i use is hardly restrictive , it just keeps big chunks out and **** , its good stuff


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## Stihl 041S (Jun 14, 2015)

For screen go to McMaster Carr. 
Inconel will last a long time. 
Get the wire size and opening you want. 
Done deal.


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jun 16, 2015)

This saw is a killer brad , thanks a ton man.


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