# A Felling Question



## MustangMike (May 21, 2015)

I know there are a lot of people on this site with a lot more experience/knowledge than me, so I'd like some feedback from you on a felling question.

There is a tree with a slight lean to it. I want to drop the tree at about 45 degrees from the lean.

I'm thinking to make the notch in the direction that I want it to fall, but with the back cut leaving the hinge a little thicker on the side away from the lean.

Is this a good idea, or not?

If it makes any difference, the tree is a Tulip (Yellow Poplar) about 20" in diameter, and fairly tall.

Thanks.


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## Trx250r180 (May 21, 2015)

Need a pic Mike


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

You are describing the classic "Dutchman" method for turning a tree from its lean. The amount of lean is reasonable, and the species turns great. Just make sure your face is perfectly matched up and cleaned up. Start the back cut on the lean side (but don't stand under the lean), and leave as much holding wood as possible on the "pull side" to turn the tree. It may try to take your saw for a ride when it starts to go, so be ready.


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## Deets066 (May 21, 2015)

I like a short bar when useing the Dutchman, easier to keep it out of a pinch on the final cut.

For me anyway


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## Big_Wood (May 21, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> You are describing the classic "Dutchman" method for turning a tree from its lean. The amount of lean is reasonable, and the species turns great. Just make sure your face is perfectly matched up and cleaned up. Start the back cut on the lean side (but don't stand under the lean), and leave as much holding wood as possible on the "pull side" to turn the tree. It may try to take your saw for a ride when it starts to go, so be ready.



don't recommend a dutchman to a guy with no experience doing it! oh and judging by your explanation you to don't know what a dutchman is LOL a dutchman is going deeper on the top cut of the under cut on the side you want to break first. so you are essentially taking wood from the hinge before hand and making a flat spot for the stem to sit on putting pressure on the holding wood. this way the side with the dutchman breaks first causing the tree to twist during the fall. not a technique for the average firewood hack! lose control and yer shooting in the dark. what mike described is gonna be easiest for him. not hard to tell you guys are learning from the workBC videos on youtube  those videos have errors to by the way. mike, the way you described is not a dutchman and is the safest way to carry out the job for yourself. purpose of the thicker hinge on the side away from the lean is so the hinge don't break having the tree go down with the lean. keep your holding from side to side thick to thin the way you said and wedge it over (if needed). you'll be fine.


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## KenJax Tree (May 21, 2015)

Just use you MS 362 C-M and cut straight through the back...the 362 is so awesome the tree will just lay right down where you want it. [emoji1] just bustin' you Mike its been a while.

I agree with Shane a dutchman isn't a technique to use if you've never done it before. When in doubt throw a rope in it.


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## gomoto69 (May 21, 2015)

Do you want it to go 45 degrees or do you 'need' it to go 45 degrees, as in to miss a building, powerline etc? If so, i would rope it and pull with a pickup or quad to make sure it goes where you want. If its just for convenience, give it a go, make sure your undercut is no more than 1/3 the diameter, and clean, and don't cut it all the way off!


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## Deets066 (May 21, 2015)




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## SAWMIKAZE (May 21, 2015)

Didnt gypo have some vids of him turnin and burnin ?


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## Trx250r180 (May 21, 2015)

couple of these will help on the back cut ,cut ..........pound ,cut a little more ............pound cut ,leave a good hinge so it does not go over backwards ,if it wont go do the rope thing ,do not cut the hinge too thin ,leave min 2 inches preferably more ,the hinge will steer your tree away from the lean ,use the sights on your saw to make sure the back cut is going direction of the fall ,sights are the black line across your side covers and top of plastic ,


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## SAWMIKAZE (May 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> couple of these will help on the back cut ,cut ..........pound ,cut a little more ............pound cut ,leave a good hinge so it does not go over backwards ,if it wont go do the rope thing ,do not cut the hinge too thin ,leave min 2 inches preferably more ,the hinge will steer your tree away from the lean ,use the sights on your saw to make sure the back cut is going direction of the fall ,sights are the black line across your side covers and top of plastic ,View attachment 426065
> View attachment 426062



I just took my saws to the range to " sight " em in , dem black lines lie sometimes


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## Trx250r180 (May 21, 2015)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I just took my saws to the range to " sight " em in , dem black lines lie sometimes


My 660 needs to be re sighted ,but for now as long as it goes one of the 3 directions ,its all good


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> don't recommend a dutchman to a guy with no experience doing it! oh and judging by your explanation you to don't know what a dutchman is LOL a dutchman is going deeper on the top cut of the under cut on the side you want to break first. so you are essentially taking wood from the hinge before hand and making a flat spot for the stem to sit on putting pressure on the holding wood. this way the side with the dutchman breaks first causing the tree to twist during the fall. not a technique for the average firewood hack! lose control and yer shooting in the dark. what mike described is gonna be easiest for him. not hard to tell you guys are learning from the workBC videos on youtube  those videos have errors to by the way. mike, the way you described is not a dutchman and is the safest way to carry out the job for yourself. purpose of the thicker hinge on the side away from the lean is so the hinge don't break having the tree go down with the lean. keep your holding from side to side thick to thin the way you said and wedge it over (if needed). you'll be fine.


I'm not recommending anything. He is describing a Dutchman and I am telling him a safe way to go about it. You are describing a "kerf Dutchman", which is done from the face, and I am telling him how to turn it from the back. Both techniques will leave basically the same stump, with the pull side thick and the lean side thin/gone at the edge. We could talk about step Dutchmen, and "soft" Dutchmen, both techniques to get it to turn faster/more, but that is not necessary here. It should be no problem to turn a tulip poplar 45 degrees from it's lean from the back, and I think it would be safer for the inexperienced to simply put in a nice clean face and do the "dutching" from the back, rather than trying to set up a kerf Dutchman from the face


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## Big_Wood (May 21, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I'm not recommending anything. He is describing a Dutchman and I am telling him a safe way to go about it. You are describing a "kerf Dutchman", which is done from the face, and I am telling him how to turn it from the back. Both techniques will leave basically the same stump, with the pull side thick and the lean side thin/gone at the edge. We could talk about step Dutchmen, and "soft" Dutchmen, both techniques to get it to turn faster/more, but that is not necessary here. It should be no problem to turn a tulip poplar 45 degrees from it's lean from the back, and I think it would be safer for the inexperienced to simply put in a nice clean face and do the "dutching" from the back, rather than trying to set up a kerf Dutchman from the face



you have obviously done some reading LOL around here we don't refer to any kind of dutchman from the back. we refer to a dutchman as the thinned/gone as you say holding wood being from the front creating a flat spot for the stem to sit. that force strains the holding wood. when using a dutchman i always leave holding wood but very little. the flat spot or step strains that very little holding wood so it breaks first and when you want it to. i won't be the guy standing at the stump with a tree standing with a corner cut off. i am interested where you have done your reading though as i am always interested to learn more. i have only been taught the way fallers do it here really and have never once read on the subject. problem is as with anything there are alot of people writing about things they have never done. like here, WCB officials don't know what it is to fall a tree and yet somehow they tell us what's safe and what isn't LOL. i'm interested in all these names for a dutchman you have read about because i have only learned about the dutchman as a dutchman from guys who actually use it. either way, a homeowner/firewood hack should think twice before doing things more technical that he don't have any experience doing. of course, maybe there is less worry considering the small timber you guys have to work with. **** up a dutchman on something bigger here and your ****ed LOL i was understanding what mike was saying was how they describe to deal with a leaner in the workBC videos which is not a dutchman. the cut is designed to keep a tree on it's stump and have the face pointing where he wants it to go. thick hinge on the pull side would be to hold tree from going with the lean.


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

I see what you are saying. When I intentionally leave more holding wood on one side to turn a tree, I call it a Dutchman whether I set it up from the face, set it up with a borecut, or do to in the back cut. If the term "Dutchman" only applies to when you set it up from the face, I don't think mike should do that. Here's a step Dutch


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## Big_Wood (May 21, 2015)

the way i was taught was to just simply go deeper then the lower cut on top cut of the under cut and on the side you want to break first. i am talking of the upper cut of the undercut (lower cut for the easterner conventional cut i guess LOL). now the dutchman is there and the back cut can be done slightly above like normal. i guess that could be what the step is. either way it accomplishes what you accomplished in the vid but in my mind is alot more simple and is less ****ing around at the stump. i've never wedged a dutchman like that and get the same swing as you without the block of wood present. put the block of wood in there and it goes way over. for a homeowner i am impressed. you did your homework. just imagine doing that on a 40" fir though LOL there are many ways to skin a cat. where'd you learn this? i only learned what was handed down through generations.


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## Trx250r180 (May 21, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> the way i was taught was to just simply go deeper then the lower cut on top cut of the under cut and on the side you want to break first. i am talking of the upper cut of the undercut (lower cut for the easterner conventional cut i guess LOL). now the dutchman is there and the back cut can be done slightly above like normal. i guess that could be what the step is. either way it accomplishes what you accomplished in the vid but in my mind is alot more simple and is less ****ing around at the stump. i've never wedged a dutchman like that and get the same swing as you without the block of wood present. put the block of wood in there and it goes way over. for a homeowner i am impressed. you did your homework. just imagine doing that on a 40" fir though LOL there are many ways to skin a cat. where'd you learn this? i only learned what was handed down through generations.



Never doubt the huskstihl ,he taught Chuck Norris everything he knows .......


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> the way i was taught was to just simply go deeper then the lower cut on top cut of the under cut and on the side you want to break first. i am talking of the upper cut of the undercut (lower cut for the easterner conventional cut i guess LOL). now the dutchman is there and the back cut can be done slightly above like normal. i guess that could be what the step is. either way it accomplishes what you accomplished in the vid but in my mind is alot more simple and is less ****ing around at the stump. i've never wedged a dutchman like that and get the same swing as you without the block of wood present. put the block of wood in there and it goes way over. for a homeowner i am impressed. you did your homework. just imagine doing that on a 40" fir though LOL there are many ways to skin a cat. where'd you learn this? i only learned what was handed down through generations.


The step or block Dutch employs a rock (per Douglas dent) or a piece of the face to break the near side faster. Wedging a bored Dutch is dangerous, as the hinge will break (ask how I know), but that tree needed to turn fast, and had a bunch of limb weight going the wrong way. I usually use a Humboldt, but I was worried the block would fall out. I don't do that for all trees I want to turn. A homeowner in Texas is different than a homeowner in some other places. I'm not a logger, but I've taken down a couple hundred trees in the past 5 years.


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## Trx250r180 (May 21, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> The step or block Dutch employs a rock (per Douglas dent) or a piece of the face to break the near side faster. Wedging a bored Dutch is dangerous, as the hinge will break (ask how I know), but that tree needed to turn fast, and had a bunch of limb weight going the wrong way. I usually use a Humboldt, but I was worried the block would fall out. I don't do that for all trees I want to turn. A homeowner in Texas is different than a homeowner in some other places. I'm not a logger, but I've taken down a couple hundred trees in the past 5 years.


You could have just shortened it up by saying 

"I'm a badass "


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

Every once in a while a 40 incher


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> You could have just shortened it up by saying
> 
> "I'm a badass "


If that came across as boastful, that was not my intention. When I give advice, it's usually on something I've both done correctly and also disastrously poorly


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## Gologit (May 21, 2015)

Very entertaining thread.


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## Chris-PA (May 21, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I see what you are saying. When I intentionally leave more holding wood on one side to turn a tree, I call it a Dutchman whether I set it up from the face, set it up with a borecut, or do to in the back cut. If the term "Dutchman" only applies to when you set it up from the face, I don't think mike should do that. Here's a step Dutch



That was pretty slick!


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## HuskStihl (May 21, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Very entertaining thread.


My inner monologue "please don't quote any of my posts, please don't quote any of my posts, please don't quote any of my posts." I hope you can't sense fear like a dog!


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## gomoto69 (May 21, 2015)

I fell trees proffessionaly when i was younger, but only for about 6 months, before i started bucking, so i am by no means an expert, or claim to be one, but i did learn that even with the best laid plans, things don't always work out. If you 'need' a tree to turn against it's lean in order to miss something important, expensive, or dangerous, don't depend on a couple inches of holding wood to make it happen. My son is an arborist, and they don't hesitate to put a rope in any tree that can reach anything, and if they're not 100% sure they can pull it, he'll climb it and piece it down. They don't leave anything to chance, and he and is crew are all good fallers. A bit of rot on the side of your hinge that you want to steer by is all it takes for a tree to break off, then it's going where ever it wants, so just be sure to plan the job properly, don't leave anything to chance, or you will get bit eventually!


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## MustangMike (May 21, 2015)

Thanks, everyone, for all the great advice, I always like to learn things. There are no structures or power lines that this tree can reach, but I do intend to tie it anyway, just to make sure it falls on the correct property. The rope will just help to ensure that the hinge works, I won't need a pull rope to make it fall, the lean will take care of that.

That block of wood in the hinge is a nifty trick, I'll remember that!

Brian, I have never once used the "sights" on my saws, I do have good judgement in that regard. My brother's FIL (since departed) once asked me how accurately I could drop a tree. I asked him where he wanted it. He put a tent peg in the ground about 50' away. We never found it.

I did have a hinge fail on a leaning soft Maple though, no damage, but it did not go where I wanted. That made me think of what I could have done differently.

Thanks again everyone, and if anyone has any additional advice, I'm listening.


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## bnmc98 (May 21, 2015)

You can leave more holding wood on the lee side(?) (non leaning side) without dutching it. Just sayin.
Open up your face a little on leaners and you will give them a chance to make it more in the direction you want instead of breaking the holding wood prematurely and falling towards the lean.

If theres nothing around, don't sweat it too much. I call that over-thinking and can cause quite a migraine.


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## Cfaller (May 21, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> you have obviously done some reading LOL around here we don't refer to any kind of dutchman from the back. we refer to a dutchman as the thinned/gone as you say holding wood being from the front creating a flat spot for the stem to sit. that force strains the holding wood. when using a dutchman i always leave holding wood but very little. the flat spot or step strains that very little holding wood so it breaks first and when you want it to. i won't be the guy standing at the stump with a tree standing with a corner cut off. i am interested where you have done your reading though as i am always interested to learn more. i have only been taught the way fallers do it here really and have never once read on the subject. problem is as with anything there are alot of people writing about things they have never done. like here, WCB officials don't know what it is to fall a tree and yet somehow they tell us what's safe and what isn't LOL. i'm interested in all these names for a dutchman you have read about because i have only learned about the dutchman as a dutchman from guys who actually use it. either way, a homeowner/firewood hack should think twice before doing things more technical that he don't have any experience doing. of course, maybe there is less worry considering the small timber you guys have to work with. **** up a dutchman on something bigger here and your ****ed LOL i was understanding what mike was saying was how they describe to deal with a leaner in the workBC videos which is not a dutchman. the cut is designed to keep a tree on it's stump and have the face pointing where he wants it to go. thick hinge on the pull side would be to hold tree from going with the lean.



Pick this book up, it has a few tricks in it.
http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...ional-Timber-Falling-Book-by-Douglas-Dent.axd


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## bnmc98 (May 21, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> problem is as with anything there are alot of people writing about things they have never done. like here, WCB officials don't know what it is to fall a tree and yet somehow they tell us what's safe and what isn't LOL.



I just reread this and I am not knocking you so don't take offense. But I have watched a lot of the Worksafe BC faller videos and I remember one where the guy was falling on a steep slope, side-hilling it (I forget which one it was) but he got all his technique perfect and... drilled a stump with it and busted that stick in half.
At least he broke it safely


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## Big_Wood (May 22, 2015)

at $6.99 i'll pick it up with my next order for sure. for now i got a training kit from the BC forest safety council and i find it annoying to read LOL rather get into the practical right away. i basicly just need my qualifications on paper but stupid BC gotta make it hard for us. course is $33,000 now. i go back in september.


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## Spectre468 (May 22, 2015)

Good luck, buddy! I'm sure you'll get it figured out and get it on the ground safely.


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## Big_Wood (May 22, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I just reread this and I am not knocking you so don't take offense. But I have watched a lot of the Worksafe BC faller videos and I remember one where the guy was falling on a steep slope, side-hilling it (I forget which one it was) but he got all his technique perfect and... drilled a stump with it and busted that stick in half.
> At least he broke it safely


it is what it is man. myself, the stumps in the second growth are everywhere so i try to aim for the furthest possible fall without a hit to save it out. alot of new guys are breaking wood left and right. i'm past that. trust me.


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## ropensaddle (May 22, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> I fell trees proffessionaly when i was younger, but only for about 6 months, before i started bucking, so i am by no means an expert, or claim to be one, but i did learn that even with the best laid plans, things don't always work out. If you 'need' a tree to turn against it's lean in order to miss something important, expensive, or dangerous, don't depend on a couple inches of holding wood to make it happen. My son is an arborist, and they don't hesitate to put a rope in any tree that can reach anything, and if they're not 100% sure they can pull it, he'll climb it and piece it down. They don't leave anything to chance, and he and is crew are all good fallers. A bit of rot on the side of your hinge that you want to steer by is all it takes for a tree to break off, then it's going where ever it wants, so just be sure to plan the job properly, don't leave anything to chance, or you will get bit eventually!


Yeah like this one lol


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## bnmc98 (May 22, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> it is what it is man. myself, the stumps in the second growth are everywhere so i try to aim for the furthest possible fall without a hit to save it out. alot of new guys are breaking wood left and right. i'm past that. trust me.



I've done it before, I was mainly agreeing with your statement.
I just think its funny that they would choose that video for a training video.

But that's just my perspective. You know, why are we cutting the tree in the first place.


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## Big_Wood (May 22, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I've done it before, I was mainly agreeing with your statement.
> I just think its funny that they would choose that video for a training video.
> 
> But that's just my perspective. You know, why are we cutting the tree in the first place.



to be honest, the council here are a bunch of goons. i go into there office regularly and they have 30 people doing the same thing, meanwhile the only reason i go in there is cause 30 of them can't be bothered to answer the damn phone. i mean, they organize training courses. how one earth do they need 30 people and then not be able to answer the phone? when you go in there 27 of them are wander around with their finger up their ass whilt the other 3 are actually working LOL. like i said. these people don't know what it is to fall tree's yet they train fallers. absolutely stupid and i don't agree with it. i was trained by old fallers. not them although i gotta go through their BS to get certified and i have accepted that. it is what it is. sometimes i envy the guys down south then i remember that after i'm certified up here i 'm done with the BS and am making 3x what the guys down south do. once certified it is pretty well exactly how it used to be up here. the certification keeps the retards and goof jobs out of the woods.


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## bnmc98 (May 22, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> sometimes i envy the guys down south then i remember that after i'm certified up here i 'm done with the BS and am making 3x what the guys down south do. once certified it is pretty well exactly how it used to be up here. the certification keeps the retards and goof jobs out of the woods.



Touche


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## 2dogs (May 22, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I know there are a lot of people on this site with a lot more experience/knowledge than me, so I'd like some feedback from you on a felling question.
> 
> There is a tree with a slight lean to it. I want to drop the tree at about 45 degrees from the lean.
> 
> ...


I am not going to make any specific suggestions about this tree because I have no idea what a tulip poplar is. Local knowledge about that tree and its conditions are way more valuable than my advice from a thousand miles away. However there are some universal truths such as why is the tree leaning? Previous damage, a change in sunlight due to a tree removal nearby, roots cut, a fire, fungus, lightning, heavy equipment working nearby, etc.? The cause of the lean, especially disease that effects the strength of the wood, will help you determine how sound the tree is. Bore the tree or at least sound it with an ax to help you.

A 45 degree turn may be out of the question if the tree is unsound. That can be quite a bit of turn even in the best conditions.


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## gomoto69 (May 22, 2015)

Our world in canada has become over regulated and over 'ticketed' to be able to work here. The idea behind it all is sound, safer working conditions so we can all go home to our families at the end of the day, problem is anything thought up and ran by the gov't results in ridiculous standards to meet. I now work as a truck driver in the oil patch, you think the forest industry is bad? Oil patch is just plain stupid about safety! I have a stack of tickets in my wallet probably 1/2" thick, 5 separate endorsments just for shell canada alone, on top of all the rest, just so i can haul gravel to build roads and leases! When i started falling, i followed our faller around for a day, then was on my own. Luckily for me, i had a fantastic teacher, karl bishoff, canadians on the site might recognize the name, he's been a world class logger's sports competitor for most of his life, i saw him on tv the other night, running his hotsaw at a stihl timbersports event. I couldn't have bought a better education than karl gave me in a few hours, and he would check my stumps, tell me what i'm doing wrong. I've learned most of what i know in life from watching and listening to people who know more than me, not from gov't employees who get their 'training' from a textbook, but we have no choice but to jump through the hoops, no ticky, no worky!


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## MustangMike (May 22, 2015)

2dogs said:


> I am not going to make any specific suggestions about this tree because I have no idea what a tulip poplar is. Local knowledge about that tree and its conditions are way more valuable than my advice from a thousand miles away. However there are some universal truths such as why is the tree leaning? Previous damage, a change in sunlight due to a tree removal nearby, roots cut, a fire, fungus, lightning, heavy equipment working nearby, etc.? The cause of the lean, especially disease that effects the strength of the wood, will help you determine how sound the tree is. Bore the tree or at least sound it with an ax to help you.
> 
> A 45 degree turn may be out of the question if the tree is unsound. That can be quite a bit of turn even in the best conditions.




The tree is very healthy, no rot. It is growing next to a Red Oak that we want to retain. Tulip grows much faster than Oak, and the lean is to get light out of the Oak's canopy. Tulip grows very fast and there seem to be many more of them now than there used to be. It is one of your softer hardwoods, and the grain is not stringy.


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## Trx250r180 (May 22, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> If that came across as boastful, that was not my intention. When I give advice, it's usually on something I've both done correctly and also disastrously poorly


Was just busting your balls sir ,your felling has really advanced in the last couple years ,You know a thing or 2 i will say .


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## Moparmyway (May 22, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Was just busting your balls sir ,your felling has really advanced in the last couple years ,You know a thing or 2 i will say .


Be carefull about bustin his bowls ............ he is a big, burly, scrappy lookin guy


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## treeslayer2003 (May 22, 2015)

mustang mike, sorry i am late here, i don't always check the chainsaw boards. i cut a chit load of large tulip every year, i love it. if you have good markets there for it like i do you should encourage it any where you can. it is much easier to get a good poplar than a good oak.....and faster.
now for your tree.......pics man, show me a pic of what you want to do. tulip poplar swings very nice. like was said, keep your face very open and match your face cuts. humbolts and dutchmans work very well in poplar. i like a block face in very large ones i have to swing as it keeps it on the stump longer.
take a couple pics and post up here. if you really want to know what can be done safely.


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## HuskStihl (May 22, 2015)

Hey MustangMike, listen hardest to Treeslayer (Handsome Mike). He basically has his PhD in tulip poplar


Moparmyway said:


> Be carefull about bustin his bowls ............ he is a big, burly, scrappy lookin guy


And that's the about the truthiest post I've ever read.


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## mdavlee (May 22, 2015)

Poplar turns easy. I like cutting them myself. They make pretty lumber also. I like milling them with a nice square filed chain and end up with a finish close to a band mill.


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## pdqdl (May 25, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Every once in a while a 40 incher




What is that "dragging the bar in the dirt" thing I saw? Looks like an easy cut, why are you sprinting from it?


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## Moparmyway (May 25, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> What is that "dragging the bar in the dirt" thing I saw? Looks like an easy cut, why are you sprinting from it?


While I probably wouldnt have ran across the cut, in case she chaired, or jumped back (just backing up from the position he was in while making the felling cut would have been safer) ................ there is never such a thing as "an easy cut". If we start thinking "easy", Mr Murphy can perk up and come a calling !

As for dragging the bar in the dirt ............. nothing a stroke or two wont take care of on the 2 or 3 teeth. It wasnt spinning.


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## HuskStihl (May 25, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> What is that "dragging the bar in the dirt" thing I saw? Looks like an easy cut, why are you sprinting from it?


It was leaning pretty good forward, and when the fibers broke it sounded like a .223, even above my loud 385. My rational mind said "loblolly pine isn't super chair-y, you eliminated most of the heartwood from the front, this loud noise isn't the start of a barber chair". My subconscious mind however said, "run screaming like a six year-old girl." The video shows which I chose. I'm so used to having my left hand on the handle, I forgot I had switched during the cut, tho the 385 is so nose heavy with the 42 that it prolly would have dragged. Not the best form, but that's why the video is titled that way


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## Chris-PA (May 25, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> It was leaning pretty good forward, and when the fibers broke it sounded like a .223, even above my loud 385. My rational mind said "loblolly pine isn't super chair-y, you eliminated most of the heartwood from the front, this loud noise isn't the start of a barber chair". My subconscious mind however said, "run screaming like a six year-old girl." The video shows which I chose. I'm so used to having my left hand on the handle, I forgot I had switched during the cut, tho the 385 is so nose heavy with the 42 that it prolly would have dragged. Not the best form, but that's why the video is titled that way


Nonsense! You clearly displayed the fortitude of an 8 year old girl. 

There is a reason that "run like hell" is an instinct.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 25, 2015)

well......whats the deal? he fall it or what?


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## Gologit (May 25, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> My subconscious mind however said, "run screaming like a six year-old girl."



Always listen to your subconscious.


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## Cope1024 (May 25, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Nonsense! You clearly displayed the fortitude of an 8 year old girl.
> 
> There is a reason that "run like hell" is an instinct.



And he lived to fell another day. At the end of the day, that's more important than how he ran away.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 25, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Always listen to your subconscious.


its kept me alive so far


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## HuskStihl (May 25, 2015)

Here's another similar video

_Perhaps if we build a large wooden badger?_


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> While I probably wouldnt have ran across the cut, in case she chaired, or jumped back (just backing up from the position he was in while making the felling cut would have been safer) ................ there is never such a thing as "an easy cut". If we start thinking "easy", Mr Murphy can perk up and come a calling !
> ...



Nonsense. If there are no easy cuts, then there are no difficult or dangerous cuts, and we all know that just ain't so. I never suggested that there are times when you shouldn't pay attention, I just asked what he was concerned about.

If I were to post a video demonstrating my expertise, it probably wouldn't be one where I "run screaming like a six year-old girl." If it were a wild and crazy leaner skillfully executed, I would want the video to show that, not my escape from the tree. Just sayin.

BTW: when I run like a 6 year old from a tree, I don't even stop to drag the saw, I abandon it to fate. I can't ever remember doing that, but I can assure you that I won't be thinking about the saw.


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## Moparmyway (May 26, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Nonsense. If there are no easy cuts, then there are no difficult or dangerous cuts, and we all know that just ain't so.


They are all dangerous, as any one of them are potential killers ............... just sayin


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## MustangMike (May 26, 2015)

It is when you think it is easy and nothing can go wrong that you get into trouble! The wind blows, the tree has hidden rot or metal, etc.


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## HuskStihl (May 26, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Nonsense. If there are no easy cuts, then there are no difficult or dangerous cuts, and we all know that just ain't so. I never suggested that there are times when you shouldn't pay attention, I just asked what he was concerned about.
> 
> If I were to post a video demonstrating my expertise, it probably wouldn't be one where I "run screaming like a six year-old girl." If it were a wild and crazy leaner skillfully executed, I would want the video to show that, not my escape from the tree. Just sayin.
> 
> BTW: when I run like a 6 year old from a tree, I don't even stop to drag the saw, I abandon it to fate. I can't ever remember doing that, but I can assure you that I won't be thinking about the saw.


Unfortunately, most of the time I am running and screaming, so it's really hard to get a video without me doing that


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## Chris-PA (May 26, 2015)




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## Trx250r180 (May 26, 2015)

This tree down yet ?


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## treeslayer2003 (May 26, 2015)

ah, run! every time. you don't need to scream but get the hell away from the stump. if you don't your a fool. it is habit with me now, i ran from a yard tree with a line in it......habit, a good one. and yes i am on video running away from the stump, there is no shame in it. falling limbs will kill you.


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## HuskStihl (May 26, 2015)

You should try the screaming, or at least whimpering. Seems to make me run faster


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## Trx250r180 (May 26, 2015)

I like to throw my saw before i run and do the dance


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## foggysail (May 26, 2015)

Too many years ago.........so many! As a teenager I worked climbing trees for about 4 years or so. I was good! During that period, we had what was known as Dutch Elm disease killing our elms and this was before the so called bucket trucks arrived. Climbing those suckers using a 1/2" Manila rope determined who was a climber. But that was yesterday.

I learned to force trees to fall in the opposite direction from a lean if the lean was not great. My my method was to cut the notch as low as reasonably possible. Next on the other side start my cut as high as I could reach with the saw and cut down toward the notch at an angle... 30 degrees or so. As the cut progresses, put a wedge in the start of the downward cut; give it a few whacks. Keep sawing downward so that the cut is almost over the notch or even over the notch. The tree is held in place with the trunk supported in shear.

Now force the wedge or two or three wedges so the trunk of the tree is forced to move in the direction you want the tree to fall. Now sure, hammering a wedge into a horizontal cut will also tip the tree's falling direction but the tree can fall backwards on you and more importantly, a wedge into a horizontal cut actually LIFTS the trunk rather than tipping it.

One additional method that has a high success is to rope the thing and pull it with the front of a truck. If you cannot get the truck to where you want the thing to fall , use a block tied to the base of another tree to run the rope though to the truck. That is IMHO, the safest way.


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## Cope1024 (May 26, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> ah, run! every time. you don't need to scream but get the hell away from the stump. if you don't your a fool. it is habit with me now, i ran from a yard tree with a line in it......habit, a good one. and yes i am on video running away from the stump, there is no shame in it. falling limbs will kill you.





David Young said:


> i only picked up a 543 and 545. i could not tell a difference in the weight but I liked the way the 545 felt better. I was impressed by the 545 when I ran one at work, nice smooth saw.
> i know nothing about the 241 but honestly other than a lighter wallet what is the point of upgrading the 025 for a trim and limb saw. I know others will disagree but they light, have enough power and have been around for ever so parts are easy to find.
> 
> I think it was a good call to get rid of the 290



Yes sir, and I've seen too many videos featuring semi-rpo and pro fellers who have a small army standing around close in while they fell the tree.


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## olyman (May 26, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> at $6.99 i'll pick it up with my next order for sure. for now i got a training kit from the BC forest safety council and i find it annoying to read LOL rather get into the practical right away. i basicly just need my qualifications on paper but stupid BC gotta make it hard for us. course is $33,000 now. i go back in september.


 did you put that comma in the wrong place????


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## Deets066 (May 26, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I like to throw my saw before i run and do the dance


How do you get it unpinched to throw it? Isn't the tree supposed to hinge on the saw bar?


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## Gologit (May 27, 2015)

foggysail said:


> I learned to force trees to fall in the opposite direction from a lean if the lean was not great. My my method was to cut the notch as low as reasonably possible. Next on the other side start my cut as high as I could reach with the saw and cut down toward the notch at an angle... 30 degrees or so. As the cut progresses, put a wedge in the start of the downward cut; give it a few whacks. Keep sawing downward so that the cut is almost over the notch or even over the notch. The tree is held in place with the trunk supported in shear.
> 
> Now force the wedge or two or three wedges so the trunk of the tree is forced to move in the direction you want the tree to fall. Now sure, hammering a wedge into a horizontal cut will also tip the tree's falling direction but the tree can fall backwards on you and more importantly, a wedge into a horizontal cut actually LIFTS the trunk rather than tipping it.



Interesting, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you're doing. Is your back cut sloping downward toward the face cut? And starting your back cut as high as you can reach with the saw and sloping downward.? I don't think I've ever seen that done. Sloping back cuts aren't usually accepted practice, at least not where I've worked. 
Can you do a video for us to demonstrate this technique?


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## Big_Wood (May 27, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Interesting, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you're doing. Is your back cut sloping downward toward the face cut? And starting your back cut as high as you can reach with the saw and sloping downward.? I don't think I've ever seen that done. Sloping back cuts aren't usually accepted practice, at least not where I've worked.
> Can you do a video for us to demonstrate this technique?



LOL Bob, do we need a video  you guys ain't seen nothing. there's this firewood hack around here named Gilbert Louie. absolute scariest stumps you will ever see. i call them the paddle board stump. he's got his undercut dipping right down in a slope and angle and his back cut dipping right down in an opposite slope and angle. he just sinks his saw in with no consideration of holding wood or nothing. some pretty big tree's as well. i prefer not to be around when he's falling a tree and i am very surprised the guy is alive. he says his techniques are bullet proof and keep the tree on the stump longer. i don't see how that is and everytime i see him out there i ask where he was aiming. he is never willing to tell me LOL he's an idiot but one heck of a nice guy. i'll try remember to get a pic of one of these stumps next time i'm out there.


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## Deets066 (May 27, 2015)

foggysail said:


> Too many years ago.........so many! As a teenager I worked climbing trees for about 4 years or so. I was good! During that period, we had what was known as Dutch Elm disease killing our elms and this was before the so called bucket trucks arrived. Climbing those suckers using a 1/2" Manila rope determined who was a climber. But that was yesterday.
> 
> I learned to force trees to fall in the opposite direction from a lean if the lean was not great. My my method was to cut the notch as low as reasonably possible. Next on the other side start my cut as high as I could reach with the saw and cut down toward the notch at an angle... 30 degrees or so. As the cut progresses, put a wedge in the start of the downward cut; give it a few whacks. Keep sawing downward so that the cut is almost over the notch or even over the notch. The tree is held in place with the trunk supported in shear.
> 
> ...


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## MustangMike (May 27, 2015)

Did not drop it yet, will post when I do, should be soon. I just emailed the owner this morning, there was some unexpected stuff on the personal front.


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## Philip Wheelock (May 27, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Did not drop it yet, will post when I do, should be soon. I just emailed the owner this morning...


I'd stick to the method you described in your original post; seems to me that the various Dutchman cuts are in the advanced category for experienced professionals only. Only suggestion I'd make is to use a rigging line perpendicular to the falling direction to make sure it goes exactly where you want it to go. Rigging lines aren't cheap, but they're the cheapest tools on the job.


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## Big_Wood (May 27, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> I'd stick to the method you described in your original post; seems to me that the various Dutchman cuts are in the advanced category for experienced professionals only. Only suggestion I'd make is to use a rigging line perpendicular to the falling direction to make sure it goes exactly where you want it to go. Rigging lines aren't cheap, but they're the cheapest tools on the job.



they can also save more money for you then any tool on the job


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## Gypo Logger (May 27, 2015)

Sloping undercuts and back cuts are a great way to swing a tree around but are best reserved for trees under 12".
The same rules apply where all cuts must meet. Generally not condoned on most operations. It's all about mechanics and gravity. The biggest enemy is the unintentional dutchman.


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## MustangMike (May 27, 2015)

Thanks everyone, will be sometime this w/e. As I previously stated, I will rope it, and I've got the good stuff from Baileys, not cheap, but 3X the strength of the HD stuff. Again, there is nothing it can damage, I just want it to land on the correct property.


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## MustangMike (May 27, 2015)

Thanks everyone, will be sometime this w/e. As I previously stated, I will rope it, and I've got the good stuff from Baileys, not cheap, but 3X the strength of the HD stuff. Again, there is nothing it can damage, I just want it to land on the correct property.


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## gomoto69 (May 27, 2015)

Sloping back cuts won't do anything to swing a tree, if they did professionals would do it and they don't. Walk through any log block that has been hand felled, undercut 1/3 diameter of tree, whether standard or humbolt, i was taught humbolt because standard undercut wasted wood. Backcut maybe an inch above undercut, straight and level, 1 or 2" of holding wood,(or more the larger the tree gets) be sure all your undercuts line up clean, that's how it's done. tree can be swung maybe 45 degrees away from a lean if its not leaning too bad, but there's nothing you can do at the stump to make a tree fall against a lean, other than wedging a slight lean, without pulling or pushing it over mechanically.


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## Trx250r180 (May 27, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Sloping back cuts won't do anything to swing a tree, if they did professionals would do it and they don't. Walk through any log block that has been hand felled, undercut 1/3 diameter of tree, whether standard or humbolt, i was taught humbolt because standard undercut wasted wood. Backcut maybe an inch above undercut, straight and level, 1 or 2" of holding wood,(or more the larger the tree gets) be sure all your undercuts line up clean, that's how it's done. tree can be swung maybe 45 degrees away from a lean if its not leaning too bad, but there's nothing you can do at the stump to make a tree fall against a lean, other than wedging a slight lean, without pulling or pushing it over mechanically.


You have not seen Gypo's videos i take it , If there is a way to cut a tree ,he has done it .


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## hseII (May 27, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I like to throw my saw before i run and do the dance


Try letting the tree throw the saw for you when it goes: then you will be the tree masta.

There is an educational video on here that shows you how to do just that. [emoji6][emoji6]


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## gomoto69 (May 27, 2015)

There's many ways to cut a tree, i just described how professional fallers in bc do it, and how i was taught when i did it, beavers are pretty good fallers, but not very accurate. I just think on a forum teaching people that may be new to it all, that industry standards a techniques should be looked at as the safest way to go about it


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## Trx250r180 (May 27, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> There's many ways to cut a tree, i just described how professional fallers in bc do it, and how i was taught when i did it, beavers are pretty good fallers, but not very accurate. I just think on a forum teaching people that may be new to it all, that industry standards a techniques should be looked at as the safest way to go about it


I was being sarcastic ,that is why i added the little whistle guy at the end ,the smiley guys on the forums inform readers that you are not serious in the reply .Sloped back cuts have no place in tree felling in my experience


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## hseII (May 27, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I was being sarcastic ,that is why i added the little whistle guy at the end ,the smiley guys on the forums inform readers that you are not serious in the reply .Sloped back cuts have no place in tree felling in my experience


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## gomoto69 (May 27, 2015)

Ha, missed the smiley guy, i feel like i miss the point on quite a few posts in this forum! Thanks


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## Gypo Logger (May 27, 2015)

I've been in situations where I not only had to do a sloping undercut but had to do it above shoulder height.
Only problem is you wear most of the sawdust in the face. This is only required when one trunk of a double stem must be taken out or the tree has imbedded hardware from the stump up.
Once again, I'm not trying to convince anyone it's an accepted practice, nor should they try. It's much safer to just walk away.


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## Chris-PA (May 27, 2015)

It's _*always *_safer to walk away. But you don't get much firewood that way.....


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## HuskStihl (May 27, 2015)

God how I hate sarcastic posts


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## Trx250r180 (May 27, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> God how I hate sarcastic posts


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## Chris-PA (May 27, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> God how I hate sarcastic posts


Give in to the dark side, Luke. Let youself be filled by the warm glow of cynicism and sarcasm.


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## bnmc98 (May 27, 2015)

foggysail said:


> Now sure, hammering a wedge into a horizontal cut will also tip the tree's falling direction but the tree can fall backwards on you and more importantly, a wedge into a horizontal cut actually LIFTS the trunk rather than tipping it.



Never had one come back on me with a wedge in it... its too hard for me to stand directly behind the tree under the lean and cut all the holding wood off through my wedge. I'm usually off to the side.
I have had plenty of trees try to come over on me, but never in the manner you described
Usually has to do with operator error 

I tip trees horizontally with wedges all day long.


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## treeslayer2003 (May 27, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Never had one come back on me with a wedge in it... its too hard for me to stand directly behind the tree under the lean and cut all the holding wood off through my wedge. I'm usually off to the side.
> I have had plenty of trees try to come over on me, but never in the manner you described
> Usually has to do with operator error
> 
> I tip trees horizontally with wedges all day long.


really? ya must be kidding lol


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## Bwildered (May 27, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Sloping back cuts won't do anything to swing a tree, if they did professionals would do it and they don't. Walk through any log block that has been hand felled, undercut 1/3 diameter of tree, whether standard or humbolt, i was taught humbolt because standard undercut wasted wood. Backcut maybe an inch above undercut, straight and level, 1 or 2" of holding wood,(or more the larger the tree gets) be sure all your undercuts line up clean, that's how it's done. tree can be swung maybe 45 degrees away from a lean if its not leaning too bad, but there's nothing you can do at the stump to make a tree fall against a lean, other than wedging a slight lean, without pulling or pushing it over mechanically.


That is correct, sloping back cuts are a sign of the self taught & if 3 or more are done when working for a professional organisation your down the track looking for another job. Wedging on a sloping back cut can be inefective because the wood can split away instead of taking the force of the wedge to push the bole in the desired direction.
Tansk


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## pdqdl (May 27, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Interesting, but I'm having trouble visualizing what you're doing. Is your back cut sloping downward toward the face cut? And starting your back cut as high as you can reach with the saw and sloping downward.? I don't think I've ever seen that done. Sloping back cuts aren't usually accepted practice, at least not where I've worked.
> Can you do a video for us to demonstrate this technique?



I think I know what he is suggesting: by putting a steep slope on the back cut he is gaining leverage on the hinge by widening the width of the overall cut. Yes, it would have give a wedge more power to lift a tree against a lean alright. It would also reduce the amount of travel imparted to the leaning top by the same proportion that it gains leverage, and it would also be attempting to put huge forces on relatively weak parts of the tree that are not structurally suitable for the compression delivered by a pounded-in wedge. Wood only tolerates much compression when the force is perpendicular to the grain.

I see several likely failures from using this technique:
1. Pound in the wedges and the feller discovers that he still has a leaning tree that is still going the wrong direction and he has run out of wedges to get enough lift to correct the problem. That and big stacks of wedges have a nasty tendency to pop out, dropping the tree in a very undesirable manner.
2. Like Bwildered mentioned in the previous post, pound in the wedges and the stump can split out in the back (a reverse barber chair?), dropping the tree further into the lean and capturing the bar of the saw in the process. This would leave you with a probability that the tree will go the wrong way while your saw is trapped and might precipitate a barber-chair as well when the back cut closes and the tree falls hard on it.

I don't think I like that technique.


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## pdqdl (May 27, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I was being sarcastic ,that is why i added the little whistle guy at the end ,the smiley guys on the forums inform readers that you are not serious in the reply .Sloped back cuts have no place in tree felling in my experience



Not quite true: they reduce the tendency of a tree to jump backwards off the stump. But then, so does a humbolt.


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## Deets066 (May 27, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Not quite true: they reduce the tendency of a tree to jump backwards off the stump. But then, so does a humbolt.


Also not true, a 12" high slopeing back cut won't save you anymore than a straight horizontal back cut if it isn't wedged properly.


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## pdqdl (May 27, 2015)

I always thought that "wedging properly" excluded the use of a sloping cut. Not sure what you mean.


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## Deets066 (May 27, 2015)

The little yellow wedge that you beat in the back cut, if not done "properly" a slopeing back cut won't save you. Some people think that you don't need a felling wedge if you use a slopeing back cut.


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## bnmc98 (May 27, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Not quite true: they reduce the tendency of a tree to jump backwards off the stump. But then, so does a humbolt.



Trees do not have a tendency to jump backwards... Unless you're cutting them wrong.


The only time i get them jumping backwards is when they hit something on the way down.
And usually you're gone by that point and watching it go down.

Sloping back-cuts are for paranoid people
If you are paranoid or fearful cutting trees then you will do weird stuff...


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## Gypo Logger (May 27, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> It's _*always *_safer to walk away. But you don't get much firewood that way.....


Thank God there is no shortage of trees!


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## Gypo Logger (May 27, 2015)

There is definitely some confusion here about sloping cuts. A sloping back cut with a flat undercut is plain stupid.
I'm suggesting an angled undercut with the same angled back cut in rare situations.
Those bloody trees and saws always jumping at you! What an outrage! Lol


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## Gypo Logger (May 27, 2015)

I so hate it when they just jump off the stump and come after you!


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## Gypo Logger (May 28, 2015)

Good thing Dad was there! Lol


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## Gypo Logger (May 28, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> There is definitely some confusion here about sloping cuts. A sloping back cut with a flat undercut is plain stupid.
> I'm suggesting an angled undercut with the same angled back cut in rare situations.
> Those bloody trees and saws always jumping at you! What an outrage! Lol


Oh, never mind! You didn't explain it well enough in laymans terms. So Shut TFU and take a pic!
Oh alright!


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## gomoto69 (May 28, 2015)

Sloping back cuts are just wrong, and just advertise you don't know the proper way to fall a tree. I'm not trying to criticize, but it looked to me that the big tree in your second video got cut right off, and it simply fell into it's heavy side, the side with all the limbs, which luckily was the way you wanted it to go. I may be wrong as it wasn't clear in the video, but it was free of the stump by the time it was maybe 30 degrees over. One thing i would suggest, and this was drilled into me by the very good faller who taught me, look up! Glance down to be sure you're on target and not cutting your holding wood, but then watch the top, up there is what will kill you! If you carefully watch the top, you will see it move the direction it's going to fall before it actually goes over. If it's going to set back, you will see it, and you can stop and try to wedge it over. If it's going to go the right way, you can see that too, stop and check your holding wood! Couple more blips of the throttle or a tap on a wedge an over she goes!


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## Trx250r180 (May 28, 2015)

Wedges do not push in a slope cut as good as they lift the tree in a straight back cut


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## gomoto69 (May 28, 2015)

I think the biggest danger of sloping a backcut is that you don't get a clear picture of how much wood you're leaving for a hinge. If your undercut and your backcut line up vertically, you've cut the tree off, even if there's 2" or 4" or 6" of space between them. Cutting straight towards the undercut from the back gives a clear view of how much hinge you have left. I hope i'm explaining that ok. As soon as a tree is cut off, gravity takes over and you have lost all control of the tree. Two most important things when falling a tree, don't cut it off and look up!!


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## Gypo Logger (May 28, 2015)

Once a tree is committed to its fall, you can cut all the holding wood you want, this is a good thing as the tree will roll, this reducing butt shatter and fibre pull. Mostly reserved for falling hardwood veneer.


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## gomoto69 (May 28, 2015)

Ya you can give her a few braaap braaap's once it's committed, but i like to make my exit before it's over very far, as in your first video, don't wanna catch that on the chin!


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## Gypo Logger (May 28, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Ya you can give her a few braaap braaap's once it's committed, but i like to make my exit before it's over very far, as in your first video, don't wanna catch that on the chin!


I get thru Falkland every once in while, have a few friends there. Hope we have some trees left if it doesn't all burn down this summer. We can always pick mushrooms. Lol


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## gomoto69 (May 28, 2015)

Shaping up to be a dry one alright, i've watched fly hills burn twice, once in 1972 when i was a little guy, again in 1998, i hope i don't see it a third time! Cheers!


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## wyk (May 28, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> There is definitely some confusion here about sloping cuts. A sloping back cut with a flat undercut is plain stupid.
> I'm suggesting an angled undercut with the same angled back cut in rare situations.
> Those bloody trees and saws always jumping at you! What an outrage! Lol



You talking about an 'angled' back cut - the type used to slide the stem sideways off the stump sometimes?


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## Bwildered (May 28, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Once a tree is committed to its fall, you can cut all the holding wood you want, this is a good thing as the tree will roll, this reducing butt shatter and fibre pull. Mostly reserved for falling hardwood veneer.


You cut the hinge off in your vid, if your getting fibre pull your face cut / belly is too deep or shallow angle, I forget the actual numbers but most fatalities in manual falling happen within 6 or so meters of the stump, if you've cut the hinge off your staying too long at the stump & not giving enough time to retreat a safe distance.
Tansk


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## jughead500 (May 28, 2015)

Be careful cutting tulip poplar.they have a slight tendency to barber chair.


Not that i've had one crack on the stump but out of bucking out 12 logs out of 2 trees a few months ago i cracked 4 logs down the center.don't know if it was the time of year or what but they popped like a shot gun.


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## HuskStihl (May 28, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Sloping back cuts are just wrong, and just advertise you don't know the proper way to fall a tree. I'm not trying to criticize, but it looked to me that the big tree in your second video got cut right off, and it simply fell into it's heavy side, the side with all the limbs, which luckily was the way you wanted it to go. I may be wrong as it wasn't clear in the video, but it was free of the stump by the time it was maybe 30 degrees over. One thing i would suggest, and this was drilled into me by the very good faller who taught me, look up! Glance down to be sure you're on target and not cutting your holding wood, but then watch the top, up there is what will kill you! If you carefully watch the top, you will see it move the direction it's going to fall before it actually goes over. If it's going to set back, you will see it, and you can stop and try to wedge it over. If it's going to go the right way, you can see that too, stop and check your holding wood! Couple more blips of the throttle or a tap on a wedge an over she goes!


That second vid was Brad Snelling, not gyppo.


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## Bwildered (May 28, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Be careful cutting tulip poplar.they have a slight tendency to barber chair.
> View attachment 427447
> 
> Not that i've had one crack on the stump but out of bucking out 12 logs out of 2 trees a few months ago i cracked 4 logs down the center.don't know if it was the time of year or what but they popped like a shot gun.


There's not much chance of finding one of them down here, maybe an ornamental tree in suburbia.
Tansk


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## Trx250r180 (May 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> That second vid was Brad Snelling, not gyppo.


Brad is Gypo's stunt double on u-tube


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## MustangMike (May 28, 2015)

I never remember seeing many of them, but over the last few decades, they seem to be everywhere, and they grow very fast.


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Trees do not have a tendency to jump backwards... Unless you're cutting them wrong.
> 
> 
> The only time i get them jumping backwards is when they hit something on the way down.
> ...



As so often gets pointed out, there are many different situations in tree felling, and I can assure you that some of them require extra precautions to reduce the tendency of a tree to jump backwards off the stump as the tree comes down.

As you pointed out yourself, hitting things on the way down can cause that to happen. So can a standard open face cut with a flat back cut on a very tall, narrow tree, particularly if wedged over center. As the tree proceeds to fall, there is a huge amount of thrust required to accelerate the falling tree _sideways_. All of the force that moved the tree away from its vertical position (except for the straight down part of the movement) came from the holding wood on the stump. If the sideways thrust on the stump exceeds the holding power of the stump, it will jump backwards...every single time. Generally, it is pretty easy to keep that from happening.

This is all basic physics. Like you said, when the cut is not done to prevent that from happening, it was done wrong. Suggesting that there is no backwards thrust applied to the stump is equally wrong. (tree climbers know all about that backwards thrust; we feel it every time we cut the top out of a tree and the standing spar bounces all over when that thrust is released by the falling top. See video here.)

I just consider a sloping back cut to be a waste of chainsaw time. It makes the cut unnecessarily long, and does not really do anything that cannot be done with a superior method. I personally think sloping back cuts are popular for folks with dull saws or weak arms; this allows some gravity to help them push the saw through the cut.


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> The little yellow wedge that you beat in the back cut, if not done "properly" a slopeing back cut won't save you. Some people think that you don't need a felling wedge if you use a slopeing back cut.



I very seldom use a felling wedge, and use a sloping back cut even less. But you are right, a sloping back cut does little to correct any other mistake; particularly a lack of experience or understanding.


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## Deets066 (May 29, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I very seldom use a felling wedge, and use a sloping back cut even less. But you are right, a sloping back cut does little to correct any other mistake; particularly a lack of experience or understanding.


Do you rope them? 
It only took one time that a tree sat back on me, now I never fall a tree without a wedge, unless it's a head leaner


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## gomoto69 (May 29, 2015)

A humbolt undercut helps keep the tree from coming off the stump backwards. Having a tree fall and hit something causing the butt to fly up, i witnessed the effect that can have first hand. My first week learning to fall, green as grass! I got pinched in a tree, maybe 14" diameter. My boss was falling not far away, so i went and got him to cut me out. He cut it about chest hight, half way down it hit a snag leaning between 2 trees, and the butt flew up (just like in your video), catching my boss in his chest, lifted him up and threw him about 15 feet back, i was shocked, trying to remember some first aid, expecting blood an broken bones at least! Thankfully, he got up, swearing, brushed himself off and carried on back to his work, scared the crap outa me! Never a dull moment when trees are falling!


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Do you rope them?
> It only took one time that a tree sat back on me, now I never fall a tree without a wedge, unless it's a head leaner



Rope it over? Only if I need to, although I consider it much easier and more secure than using a wedge.

I have a keen eye for tree balance, and I typically undercut the center of gravity on a tree with a deep face cut. I can easily set a rope, and I have all sorts of equipment to pull a tree if I need it. The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too. In addition, we are usually cutting down some unhealthy compromised tree, so counting on a hinge and a wedge isn't that good a plan.

I was training a climber a week ago; we were sending down a 26" cottonwood. We had climbed and removed the branches that weighted the tree toward the fence we were obliged to miss. It was still leaning a bit to the west, and we wanted it to go to the SE. He wanted to put a rope on it and pull it over with my 9500 bobcat & winch, but I told him to just cut it down. I explained that we had a nice brisk wind in the direction we wanted it to go, and that it didn't matter if he dropped it the wrong way, so long as he missed the fence. He made a crappy face cut (not deep enough), then did a poor job on the back cut. He finished most of the back cut on the easy side, but was afraid to go around to the treacherous downhill side of the tree to make the hinge narrow enough to let the tree blow over. He was also rather reluctant to hang out on the side the tree was leaning toward, having almost cut the entire hinge off on the easy to reach uphill side.

The wind picked up a bit more, the back cut opened up a little bit, and I told him to deepen the back cut quick on the treacherous side. He did, the tree went the right direction, and all was well.

It took him too long to cut down the tree, and it was a prime candidate for the wedge technique. Too bad the dolts didn't even own a wedge so that they could use it. I also used that little lesson as an opportunity to explain to him that he really should have had a wedge on the job, too. You see, I have nothing against wedges and I insist that my crew always have at least three on every job, along with my splitting axe to drive them. In this particular case, I had hired a bunch of barely qualified hacks to help me finish a job, and they did a fine job of hacking down the trees that I needed cut down.

If the tree had gone the wrong way, it would only have been joining the several dozen other trees in the creek bottom that we had already cut down. In this particular case, I was just using my judgement to send a W leaner off to the SE with nothing more than a nice breeze. I would not have taken that chance next to something expensive.


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> A humbolt undercut helps keep the tree from coming off the stump backwards. Having a tree fall and hit something causing the butt to fly up, i witnessed the effect that can have first hand. My first week learning to fall, green as grass! I got pinched in a tree, maybe 14" diameter. My boss was falling not far away, so i went and got him to cut me out. He cut it about chest hight, half way down it hit a snag leaning between 2 trees, and the butt flew up (just like in your video), catching my boss in his chest, lifted him up and threw him about 15 feet back, i was shocked, trying to remember some first aid, expecting blood an broken bones at least! Thankfully, he got up, swearing, brushed himself off and carried on back to his work, scared the crap outa me! Never a dull moment when trees are falling!



Yes on the humbolt, previously mentioned. It sounds like your boss should have been reading the advice in this thread about getting away from the butt of the tree before it could bite him. I'm sure he would have been much more satisfied with the results had he run like a scared 8 year old girl.


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## MustangMike (May 29, 2015)

Thanks for the advice everyone, I dropped the Tulip today, and a 3 legged Willow (see the stump). I used Humbolt notches for the first time (on all of them) and on the Tulip (it was about 17' diameter) I angled the back cut slightly (leaving the hinge thicker away from the lean). It was a very calm morning, with a very slight breeze in the direction of the fall, so I did not bother to rope it.

All the felling went like clockwork, it was a good day. Thanks for all the advice, and I did use it.

That is 044 #2 with a 24" bar on the stump.


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2015)

That doesn't look like a humbolt. Yours looks like this:









This be a humbolt:


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## MustangMike (May 29, 2015)

I used the humbolt on each of the three legs when dropping them, then reduced the height of the stump, which is what you are looking at.

Thanks for the heads up, but I did get it.


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## gomoto69 (May 29, 2015)

That day is still burned in my memory, nearly 30 years later, and i'll tell you, everything happened so fast, one second the tree's just nicely going over, next second, swooosh! Butt of the tree's 20 feet in the air and my boss flying the other way! He was a , 2nd generation logger, probly close to 60 then, spent a lifetime logging (jimmy moore, anyone around my area might know the name) tough little guy! Opened my eyes wide open, i'll tell you that!


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I used the humbolt on each of the three legs when dropping them, then reduced the height of the stump, which is what you are looking at.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up, but I did get it.



Y'er still typing; that's all that really counts in the end. Just keep trying to avoid the other forum. Membership to the Arboricultural Injuries is never honorary and always undesirable.

That would be a pretty big tulip tree. They don't get that big around here. We have lots of cottonwoods that big, though.


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## MustangMike (May 29, 2015)

They grow huge around here, and seem to be everywhere, but I don't remember seeing many a few decades ago.

Trunks are generally very straight & tall. 

It even had yellow flowers in the crown, you could not see them from the ground, only look yellow from the top.

Wikipedia says it is the tallest hardwood in the East, and that the trunk can get to 10'. I've never seen one that big, but trunks of 30-40" in diameter are not uncommon.


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## Bwildered (May 30, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Rope it over? Only if I need to, although I consider it much easier and more secure than using a wedge.
> 
> I have a keen eye for tree balance, and I typically undercut the center of gravity on a tree with a deep face cut. I can easily set a rope, and I have all sorts of equipment to pull a tree if I need it. The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too. In addition, we are usually cutting down some unhealthy compromised tree, so counting on a hinge and a wedge isn't that good a plan.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be advocating training some one, then letting them not do a good face cut & then letting them do the difficult part of the back cut last which should have been done first. Seems a bit strange to me?
Thansk


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## mdavlee (May 30, 2015)

There's huge poplar in WNC. Also a poplar forest in VA near Lynchburg. I think it's the Thomas Jefferson park. Lots of 5-6' ones


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## Bwildered (May 30, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> That day is still burned in my memory, nearly 30 years later, and i'll tell you, everything happened so fast, one second the tree's just nicely going over, next second, swooosh! Butt of the tree's 20 feet in the air and my boss flying the other way! He was a , 2nd generation logger, probly close to 60 then, spent a lifetime logging (jimmy moore, anyone around my area might know the name) tough little guy! Opened my eyes wide open, i'll tell you that!


Nearly a last generation logger.
Thansk


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## bnmc98 (May 30, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too.
> 
> I was training a climber a week ago; we were sending down a 26" cottonwood. We had climbed and removed the branches that weighted the tree toward the fence we were obliged to miss. It was still leaning a bit to the west, and we wanted it to go to the SE. He wanted to put a rope on it and pull it over with my 9500 bobcat & winch, but I told him to just cut it down. I explained that we had a nice brisk wind in the direction we wanted it to go, and that it didn't matter if he dropped it the wrong way, so long as he missed the fence. He made a crappy face cut (not deep enough), then did a poor job on the back cut. He finished most of the back cut on the easy side, but was afraid to go around to the treacherous downhill side of the tree to make the hinge narrow enough to let the tree blow over. He was also rather reluctant to hang out on the side the tree was leaning toward, having almost cut the entire hinge off on the easy to reach uphill side.
> 
> The wind picked up a bit more, the back cut opened up a little bit, and I told him to deepen the back cut quick on the treacherous side. He did, the tree went the right direction, and all was well.



Congratulations, you just taught him a technique that could potentially kill him someday. everything you just described is a recipe for the tree coming over on top of him. And someday one will. He was the one with the wisdom. 

You say you even know the hinge can fail and the cutter can make a mistake

You should have started the downhill lean side first and finished on the safe easy side. Also the side you can work with pulling the tree from.
If it was a mild lean then he might be ok but if he was as unskilled and and had messed up the other 3 cuts like you said, then that could have been disastrous for him... who cares about the property.

I have had them come over on me like that, (bye bye saw) the only reason I would cut like that is if I had no other choice. But, I still don't like doing it.

As far as your other post - I still hold to my statement.
"Trees don't have a tendency to jump backwards... unless you are cutting them wrong."


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## Chris-PA (May 30, 2015)

I have a lot of Tulip and I love them. They are a unique NA tree (they are not poplars). In the woods they grow arrow straight and very tall, and exposed they have a beautiful shade tree shape. They get very big and are strong trees - they have fared far better in recent storms than the oaks have. The flowers are pretty too. 

The wood is about half the mass of oak, but it burns hot and clean and starts easily. No wood could be easier to process than tulip - I always like to have some.


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## Chris-PA (May 30, 2015)




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## hseII (May 30, 2015)

" I hate it when I pinch my bar"

Pics of 4x" Ash


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## Trx250r180 (May 30, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> View attachment 427756


I bet that creates a lot of wind when it goes down.........


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## Chris-PA (May 30, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I bet that creates a lot of wind when it goes down.........


It's not really that big , about 26" DBH. I have lots of those, and expect it should still be standing when I'm gone.


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I wouldn't be advocating training some one, then letting them not do a good face cut & then letting them do the difficult part of the back cut last which should have been done first. Seems a bit strange to me?
> Thansk



The problem is that this was not an employee and that it was not exactly my position to "train". This was a young fellow working for another contractor who just happened to be a bit green, even by his own admission. I had previously discussed him learning things from me, but it certainly was not a formal training situation. Besides which, we were in a very low risk situation, and all it had to do was get to the ground without hitting a fence._ [You guys that want to insist that there are no low risk situations, just pipe down! When you are in a high risk industry, there are still relative levels of risk.]_

Part of my training style is to tell people how to do things, then let them try to do it. Review, then repeat. He and I had discussed how to set the tree where we wanted it, and I had told him how to make the face cut. After that, it was all on him. There wasn't any unusual risk to this tree, although he created some by leaving the last uncut part of the tree on the most difficult side of the tree: where there was no escape path. When he chickened out on the cut and asked me for advice, I had already walked up close, anticipating additional problems. We were both standing at the base of the 90% cut down tree while he diddled around with the saw, trying to reach the far side of the trunk. In the end, he acquired a rather valuable lesson and the tree ended up exactly where we planned, so yes! I think it was a fine lesson. 

Some folks think that learning does not involve being exposed to your own stupidity, but I disagree. If you guys think about the things you have learned in your lives, you will understand that the most deeply ingrained lessons come from the personal experiences that turned out not so well, rather than through any formal education. Remember your first burn on the stove at home? I'll bet you remember _real well_ your first bicycle wreck, the first time you fell off the swing set or got the wind knocked out of you. As I watched this young fellow making the cut on the tree, I was just shaking my head and thinking that perhaps next time he would listen to me a bit closer.

If I had thought he was in peril of injury, I would have stopped him. I didn't see the need, so I am not at all embarrassed to report this event in a thread about cutting down trees, carefully planning a leaning tree, and running from the stump.


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Congratulations, you just taught him a technique that could potentially kill him someday. everything you just described is a recipe for the tree coming over on top of him. And someday one will. He was the one with the wisdom.
> 
> You say you even know the hinge can fail and the cutter can make a mistake. Yep. You cannot learn to do tree work from a book, and very few seem to be able to learn from watching. It MUST be "hands on"
> 
> ...



My comments in RED.

You are so wrong about tendency. A "tendency" is a predisposition, "an inclination toward a particular characteristic or type of behavior". I explained the forces involved, and I showed you a video that demonstrates that tendency. All the myriad threads at ArboristSite about barber-chair are only a reflection of how trees can propel themselves fatally backward off the stump to kill or maim the feller. Your assertions to the contrary only serve to demonstrate your stubbornness and your lack of understanding. If we are only quibbling about terminology, then I decline to continue that discussion. As to your statement, "cutting them right" does not eliminate the tendency, it only controls that tendency. Just give it up.


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## bnmc98 (May 30, 2015)

The problem is the way you worded everything in that post.
You said you trained him and then proceeded to tell us all the things that he did to set up the worst possible scenario for that situation, all under your supervision.

Now you say there was no escape route either.

You are in a thread about how to fell a tree and here is the scenario you just painted:

I trained a rookie
allowed him to make a non corrected butchered face cut
allowed him to cut almost all of the holding wood on the safe uphill non leaning side of the tree
Then told him to go to the "treacherous" side of the tree (which he felt uncomfortable doing) and finish the cut
Under the lean
with no escape route
and in the wind

It came across as a red mark in my book.

You say you would have stopped him if in peril, however, I am not convinced you have discernment for that based on your posts. 

So I am speaking up because you still have not said it even though you have been called into question.

"DO NOT CUT A TREE THIS WAY!" unless you know what you are doing and can calculate the risks


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## bnmc98 (May 30, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Rope it over? Only if I need to, although I consider it much easier and more secure than using a wedge.
> 
> I have a keen eye for tree balance, and I typically undercut the center of gravity on a tree with a deep face cut. I can easily set a rope, and I have all sorts of equipment to pull a tree if I need it. The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too. In addition, we are usually cutting down some unhealthy compromised tree, so counting on a hinge and a wedge isn't that good a plan.
> 
> ...





pdqdl said:


> My comments in RED.
> 
> You are so wrong about tendency. A "tendency" is a predisposition, "an inclination toward a particular characteristic or type of behavior". I explained the forces involved, and I showed you a video that demonstrates that tendency. All the myriad threads at ArboristSite about barber-chair are only a reflection of how trees can propel themselves fatally backward off the stump to kill or maim the feller. Your assertions to the contrary only serve to demonstrate your stubbornness and your lack of understanding. If we are only quibbling about terminology, then I decline to continue that discussion. As to your statement, "cutting them right" does not eliminate the tendency, it only controls that tendency. Just give it up.



Dude, reread both (actually all) your posts before you give me crap


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## Big_Wood (May 30, 2015)

i don't know what it is but video's of falling tree's from back east are just ****'n scary no matter who it is. all the room in the world, nice clean ground and yet, never look where the danger is (up), all this ****'n around and uneeded movement at the stump. they still seem to take more then twice as long to get said tree on the ground too. some of the eastern Canada video's of "professionals" are shameful. one things for certain is that if a professional lives east of the rockies he should expect to need to be retrained if he plans on doing any professional falling here LOL oh wait, they do have to be retrained by law in Canada anyways. i try avoid homeowner video's and "professional easterner" videos on youtube. i actually get annoyed watching them and it can sometime ruin the following hour of my life after watching said video LOL


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> The problem is the way you worded everything in that post...


`
I think you are just trolling me, that you just like to argue and quibble over silly points. Since I enjoy that sort of thing too, I will rise to the challenge. Your quoted points in BLUE.

The problem is the way you worded everything in that post.
You said you trained him and then proceeded to tell us all the things that he did to set up the worst possible scenario for that situation, all under your supervision. [Oh contraire! I didn't say anything about the worst possible scenario, and I didn't say that I trained him. This is the first day that he worked around me as an employee for another contractor.]

Now you say there was no escape route either. [No I didn't. We were completely open on about 120° around the tree. I stated only that he left the last essential part of the cut in the most difficult position to reach]

You are in a thread about how to fell a tree and here is the scenario you just painted:

I trained a rookie [No, I never called him a rookie. This is a young fellow that climbs trees for a living, swinging from a rope with a chainsaw. He had about 2 years of professional climbing experience with 3 different companies]
allowed him to make a non corrected butchered face cut [No I never said that either. I said "crappy". In my humble opinion, "butchered" is completely done wrong, whereas "crappy" is far less than what is desired. What I had told him to do was to make a deep face cut. What he actually did was a beautiful 1/4 deep face cut pointing exactly in the direction of the desired fall. In fact, it was the perfect cut had he been planning to use a wedge. Since this tool was not present, and the face cut did not deliver the weight balance that was desired, I called it "crappy". If you prefer "butchered" that is on you, but please don't suggest that I used that term.]
allowed him to cut almost all of the holding wood on the safe uphill non leaning side of the tree [I am guessing that it is your style of training to go around snatching running chainsaws out of grown men's hands? This is the type of behavior that destroys working relationships and closes men's minds to any hope of learning.]
Then told him to go to the "treacherous" side of the tree (which he felt uncomfortable doing) and finish the cut [Yep. It felt perilous, but I held the saw in my own hands and showed him how to do it before I gave him the instruction. This was just a subtle detail that I left out in the interest of brevity. Had you not been looking for opportunities to quibble over training methods, you would not be making this point.]
Under the lean [Yes. Life is full of risks. If you are going to make a living cutting down trees, get used to it.]
with no escape route [ONCE AGAIN, I never said that]
and in the wind [As I CLEARLY POINTED OUT, the wind was FAVORABLE. and REALLY? Do you put down your saw when the breeze picks up. Come on!]

It came across as a red mark in my book.
You say you would have stopped him if in peril, however, I am not convinced you have discernment for that based on your posts. [I am not surprised by that, given the number of fallacious assertions you have made above. Since you were not there, have NO IDEA what the terrain was nor how the location was arranged, this only demonstrates that you are looking for ways to pick a contentious internet fight. As it stands, I am not impressed with the need to convince you of anything, given your tendency to read incompletely, understand poorly, and argue fallaciously.]

So I am speaking up because you still have not said it even though you have been called into question.
"DO NOT CUT A TREE THIS WAY!" unless you know what you are doing and can calculate the risks[/QUOTE

Through some perverse and inexplicable reasoning, you actually arrived at a conclusion that makes sense. This particular tree cutting experience was relating my experience at how I personally often cut down trees without wedges or ropes to achieve the desired effect. I will agree with your conclusion, which largely agrees with my previous statements. Quite frankly, I'm not exactly sure what your point is, since I never advocated cutting down trees the way I described. My purpose in presenting that saga was to relate how an experienced person like myself often works outside the normal "recommended" procedures. This came up only when I was asked a question; I wasn't advocating that inexperienced or unqualified people cut down trees without some help. In fact, this was my whole point! I took a hard working but somewhat inexperienced fellow and showed him an alternative technique that is useful in my industry. I was providing _production_ training, not _safety_ training. Anyone who thinks that tree service is all about safety alone doesn't kn0w anything about the business.

Thanks for giving me this opportunity to quibble pointlessly online. I really enjoy this kind of thing, and I have not done this for quite some time. I hope you can appreciate that I didn't dwell on the fact that you used an invalid argument to support your conclusion. Your syllogism is based on false premises, therefore it is invalid. Curiously, I am avoiding the error of Argument from Fallacy by acknowledging the truth of your conclusion.


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Dude, reread both (actually all) your posts before you give me crap



I have not yet begun to give you crap.

Your profile says you are a logger. I'm guessing that you are good at your job and understand what it takes to survive in that environment. Now please take a lesson and learn something different: tree service ain't logging, and our goals and methods are different. 

You should also understand that I have no real respect for anyone online who argues from their opinions and ignores the facts. Given that you loggers seem to have this foolish notion that you are the only persons truly qualified to cut down trees and that anyone you disagree with who is not a logger is inherently wrong, I am not surprised by your statements. I have had quite a few of these bickering matches with other loggers, and they usually take this trend: "don't argue with me, I am right because I am me, and since you are not, you are wrong."


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## bnmc98 (May 30, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> `
> I think you are just trolling me, that you just like to argue and quibble over silly points. Since I enjoy that sort of thing too, I will rise to the challenge. Your quoted points in BLUE.
> 
> The problem is the way you worded everything in that post.
> ...



WOW, just WOW!

Again, go read your other posts and stop saying you did not say things you did. I do not have time to go and do the whole cut and paste thing.

You may be thinking something different but what you typed is out there still for all to read so don't try to change it now.

Based on the info you have given us, I am not out of bounds in what I have said.


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## Bwildered (May 30, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> The problem is that this was not an employee and that it was not exactly my position to "train". This was a young fellow working for another contractor who just happened to be a bit green, even by his own admission. I had previously discussed him learning things from me, but it certainly was not a formal training situation. Besides which, we were in a very low risk situation, and all it had to do was get to the ground without hitting a fence._ [You guys that want to insist that there are no low risk situations, just pipe down! When you are in a high risk industry, there are still relative levels of risk.]_
> 
> Part of my training style is to tell people how to do things, then let them try to do it. Review, then repeat. He and I had discussed how to set the tree where we wanted it, and I had told him how to make the face cut. After that, it was all on him. There wasn't any unusual risk to this tree, although he created some by leaving the last uncut part of the tree on the most difficult side of the tree: where there was no escape path. When he chickened out on the cut and asked me for advice, I had already walked up close, anticipating additional problems. We were both standing at the base of the 90% cut down tree while he diddled around with the saw, trying to reach the far side of the trunk. In the end, he acquired a rather valuable lesson and the tree ended up exactly where we planned, so yes! I think it was a fine lesson.
> 
> ...


It just appears that someone's self proclaimed experience & training methods have some serious holes in it, every tree has the capacity to kill or maim the Faller, it's not as if the worst thing that can happen is a nasty paper cut.
Thansk


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## gomoto69 (May 30, 2015)

I'm not going to criticize anyone here, but a few points were brought up that maybe should be gone over in the interest of someone reading this thread for advice, and as i've stated in an earlier post, i have about 6 months of professional falling under my belt, hardly a seasoned pro, but not a rookie either, and i was taught by one of the best (or was) fallers in bc, here goes:
1: escape routes, i was taught to always plan 2, trim a branch or 2 if need be, but by planning 2 in your head, you won't hesitate when u need to go, a split second may save you.
2: wind, i was taught exactly what you said loggers never do, sit on a stump, have a smoke, whatever, but don't cut in a gusting wind. Trees sway, first with the wind, then back from momentum, they don't just push steadily and predictably with the wind, they will come back and pinch, they swirl, i know, i've cut plenty of trees in even light winds that don't behave like you think.
3: cutting from one Side then moving to the other, never done that, and have cut lots of trees bigger than my bar, i was taught to reach around, start your cut at the far side, leaving your desired hinge, then pull the saw around the cut toward you, trying to keep the tip leaving enough hinge. Once you have cut the far side just keep pulling the saw around towards you until you are parallel to the face cut, like a smaller diam tree, one smooth motion, no walking around a 90% cut off tree, the wind could easily have broken that off.
Like i said, i'm not that experienced, but was taught by someone with loads of it, i got some cool tricks for a safe way to cut up a tree to be pushed over by another tree (frowned upon but needed sometimes) and cutting a very heavy leaner without it barberchairing, but don't need to get into that here! And i agree with everything you're saying westcoaster!


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## HuskStihl (May 30, 2015)

I got a paper cut under my fingernail yesterday. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now.


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## Bwildered (May 30, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I got a paper cut under my fingernail yesterday. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now.


Your on your way to a earning Logging Purple Heart, LOL


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## Bwildered (May 30, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> I'm not going to criticize anyone here, but a few points were brought up that maybe should be gone over in the interest of someone reading this thread for advice, and as i've stated in an earlier post, i have about 6 months of professional falling under my belt, hardly a seasoned pro, but not a rookie either, and i was taught by one of the best (or was) fallers in bc, here goes:
> 1: escape routes, i was taught to always plan 2, trim a branch or 2 if need be, but by planning 2 in your head, you won't hesitate when u need to go, a split second may save you.
> 2: wind, i was taught exactly what you said loggers never do, sit on a stump, have a smoke, whatever, but don't cut in a gusting wind. Trees sway, first with the wind, then back from momentum, they don't just push steadily and predictably with the wind, they will come back and pinch, they swirl, i know, i've cut plenty of trees in even light winds that don't behave like you think.
> 3: cutting from one Side then moving to the other, never done that, and have cut lots of trees bigger than my bar, i was taught to reach around, start your cut at the far side, leaving your desired hinge, then pull the saw around the cut toward you, trying to keep the tip leaving enough hinge. Once you have cut the far side just keep pulling the saw around towards you until you are parallel to the face cut, like a smaller diam tree, one smooth motion, no walking around a 90% cut off tree, the wind could easily have broken that off.
> Like i said, i'm not that experienced, but was taught by someone with loads of it, i got some cool tricks for a safe way to cut up a tree to be pushed over by another tree (frowned upon but needed sometimes) and cutting a very heavy leaner without it barberchairing, but don't need to get into that here! And i agree with everything you're saying westcoaster!


I agree, there is a general rule of thumb for falling in the wind, if the leaves move, its ok, if the smaller branches move, it's ok, if the top of the tree bends, it's not ok, wait for a couple of hours to see if it eases up.
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (May 30, 2015)

reindeer said:


> You talking about an 'angled' back cut - the type used to slide the stem sideways off the stump sometimes?


No, you may be referring to stump jumping. I'm refering to a conventional undercut and back cut except with a 25 - 40 degree slant. I seldom use it but works for swinging smaller trees.


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## Gypo Logger (May 30, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> You cut the hinge off in your vid, if your getting fibre pull your face cut / belly is too deep or shallow angle, I forget the actual numbers but most fatalities in manual falling happen within 6 or so meters of the stump, if you've cut the hinge off your staying too long at the stump & not giving enough time to retreat a safe distance.
> Tansk


I can cut and run faster than you I guess. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (May 30, 2015)

Another hinge hater.


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## Gypo Logger (May 30, 2015)

This guy needs a check up from the neck up.


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

That looked like he was humping the tree into submission.


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> It just appears that someone's self proclaimed experience & training methods have some serious holes in it, every tree has the capacity to kill or maim the Faller, it's not as if the worst thing that can happen is a nasty paper cut.
> Thansk



I buried a tree climber; he died working for me. It was his 4th day on the job, and he was one of the most talented climbers I have ever seen. He was a fine fellow, and I was the one that had to call his wife and tell her what happened. It was an egregiously stupid thing he did, and there was nothing that could be said about questionable technique or lack of experience. I know all about how bad things can happen on the job. I have also had several other serious injuries done by employees to themselves and to nearby workers by careless or stupid handling of a chainsaw.

I also know that it is not any part of my intention here at AS to constantly repeat how dangerous every tree is with every post I make, and I am not going drill others for not bringing it up with every post. I know it, you know it, we all know that if you make a mistake, it can turn out badly. You guys keep saying things that suggest I have somehow advocated being cavalier about cutting down a tree. That just ain't so. On the other hand, I also don't call my wife to say my last goodby and then have a little "last prayer" session every time I start a saw.

If you guys are actually that worried about the danger of cutting down trees, perhaps you ought to find a safer avocation. It's a loud. dirty, difficult, and dangerous activity. Quit dwelling on the obvious fact that being stupid will get you killed, and start learning how to prevent being stupid. You will do well to read each post to see what you might learn, instead of looking for each opportunity to criticize.

I said: "_ You guys that want to insist that there are no low risk situations, just pipe down! When you are in a high risk industry, there are still relative levels of risk."_ I see how well that simple request worked.


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Again, go read your other posts and stop saying you did not say things you did. I do not have time to go and do the whole cut and paste thing.
> You may be thinking something different but what you typed is out there still for all to read so don't try to change it now.
> Based on the info you have given us, I am not out of bounds in what I have said.



Quote me, or back off. I guess the 3rd option is to continue making absurd assertions in the absence of the facts.


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## Big_Wood (May 30, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> This guy needs a check up from the neck up.




i tell ya jon, while my comment about staying away from falling youtube videos was truth i couldn't help but check out your channel. all i can say is LMFAO!!! your definitely the gypo's gypo. while i have concerns about nearly all your videos you must be doing something right cause your still alive! it might be just cause you can run fast to though LOL either way, very entertaining and stay safe friend.


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## gomoto69 (May 31, 2015)

There's humbolts........and then there's dumbbolts!


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I can cut and run faster than you I guess. Lol


Cemeteries around logging communities are full of blokes that said that. Especially in India.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I buried a tree climber; he died working for me. It was his 4th day on the job, and he was one of the most talented climbers I have ever seen. He was a fine fellow, and I was the one that had to call his wife and tell her what happened. It was an egregiously stupid thing he did, and there was nothing that could be said about questionable technique or lack of experience. I know all about how bad things can happen on the job. I have also had several other serious injuries done by employees to themselves and to nearby workers by careless or stupid handling of a chainsaw.
> 
> I also know that it is not any part of my intention here at AS to constantly repeat how dangerous every tree is with every post I make, and I am not going drill others for not bringing it up with every post. I know it, you know it, we all know that if you make a mistake, it can turn out badly. You guys keep saying things that suggest I have somehow advocated being cavalier about cutting down a tree. That just ain't so. On the other hand, I also don't call my wife to say my last goodby and then have a little "last prayer" session every time I start a saw.
> 
> ...


You've been to a funeral possibly caused by a falling accident on your job, training & letting blokes work unsafely, mmmmm the dots are starting to join together!
Thanks


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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

Yep. You should have connected those dots a long time ago.

Tree work is dangerous. Make a stupid mistake and you can die.
Tree work is still dangerous, even when you think you know what you are doing.
Tree work is still dangerous, even when you know damn sure what you are doing.
So...what is your point again?

Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself and your experience; then we can perhaps make some snappy conclusions about your "on the job" safety habits.


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Yep. You should have connected those dots a long time ago.
> 
> Tree work is dangerous. Make a stupid mistake and you can die.
> Tree work is still dangerous, even when you think you know what you are doing.
> ...


To go on the offensive is no defence for your methods, which has also been pointed out by others. As far as me, I made all those mistakes & more decades ago, the difference being I never was much for exceptionally long winded silly defences of the stupid dangerous things I did.
Thansk


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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

I don't think anyone yet has identified anything stupid or dangerous that I have done. There has been an awful lot of ill-informed conjecture, but quite frankly, you guys don't know **** about what actually occurred, nor can you judge any of the actions I described.

When you look for something to criticize, it is easy to find. It is pretty easy to run your mouth (or typing fingers), but it is a lot more difficult to be correct. That is a rather skilled observation that I changed to the offensive; I am impressed by your talent. Pretty good at this internet trolling thing, aren't you?

BTW: that is defense & defenses. Spelled with an "s", not a "c". Just poking at you, 'cause it is fun. We both seem to enjoy the same trait, don't we? I see that in the only other thread that you have posted in, you were accused of being a former member that was banned. The offensive post seems to be deleted, no doubt by a moderator. What's up with that?


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## square1 (May 31, 2015)

> I forget the actual numbers but most fatalities in manual falling happen within 6 or so meters of the stump


This may be one of those stats like most automobile accidents happen within 25 miles (where most driving is done) of home. It stands to reason, becaue unless you can run as fast and scream as loud as some here (with or without your saw in hand), you're going to be within 6 meters of the stump when the payment comes due.


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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

I was going to bring that little gem up, too, but I just didn't get around to it yet. 
Thansk.


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## olyman (May 31, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have not yet begun to give you crap.
> 
> Your profile says you are a logger. I'm guessing that you are good at your job and understand what it takes to survive in that environment. Now please take a lesson and learn something different: tree service ain't logging, and our goals and methods are different.
> 
> You should also understand that I have no real respect for anyone online who argues from their opinions and ignores the facts. Given that you loggers seem to have this foolish notion that you are the only persons truly qualified to cut down trees and that anyone you disagree with who is not a logger is inherently wrong, I am not surprised by your statements. I have had quite a few of these bickering matches with other loggers, and they usually take this trend: "don't argue with me, I am right because I am me, and since you are not, you are wrong."


 much troof,,and you stated it so eloquently......only loggers know how to fell tress,,,pffffft!!!!


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think anyone yet has identified anything stupid or dangerous that I have done. There has been an awful lot of ill-informed conjecture, but quite frankly, you guys don't know **** about what actually occurred, nor can you judge any of the actions I described.
> 
> When you look for something to criticize, it is easy to find. It is pretty easy to run your mouth (or typing fingers), but it is a lot more difficult to be correct. That is a rather skilled observation that I changed to the offensive; I am impressed by your talent. Pretty good at this internet trolling thing, aren't you?
> 
> BTW: that is defense & defenses. Spelled with an "s", not a "c". Just poking at you, 'cause it is fun. We both seem to enjoy the same trait, don't we? I see that in the only other thread that you have posted in, you were accused of being a former member that was banned. The offensive post seems to be deleted, no doubt by a moderator. What's up with that?


we only know what you told us & we responded to that. It seems that if anybody disagrees with you they are a troller, BTW defence is spelt with a "c" in the English speaking world.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

square1 said:


> This may be one of those stats like most automobile accidents happen within 25 miles (where most driving is done) of home. It stands to reason, becaue unless you can run as fast and scream as loud as some here (with or without your saw in hand), you're going to be within 6 meters of the stump when the payment comes due.


no its one of those stats that tells where tree fallers die & if you want to reduce the risks of dieing you move outside that distance in the escape zone.
Thansk


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## HuskStihl (May 31, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> There's humbolts........and then there's dumbbolts!


Technically a Swanson.


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## bnmc98 (May 31, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Quote me, or back off. I guess the 3rd option is to continue making absurd assertions in the absence of the facts.



here goes - probably a waste of time but....



pdqdl said:


> `
> The problem is the way you worded everything in that post.
> You said you trained him and then proceeded to tell us all the things that he did to set up the worst possible scenario for that situation, all under your supervision. [Oh contraire! I didn't say anything about the worst possible scenario, and I didn't say that I trained him. This is the first day that he worked around me as an employee for another contractor.]





pdqdl said:


> I was training a climber a week ago; we were sending down a 26" cottonwood. We had climbed and removed the branches that weighted the tree toward the fence we were obliged to miss. It was still leaning a bit to the west, and we wanted it to go to the SE. He wanted to put a rope on it and pull it over with my 9500 bobcat & winch, but I told him to just cut it down.





pdqdl said:


> The problem is that this was not an employee and that it was not exactly my position to "train". This was a young fellow working for another contractor who just happened to be a bit green, even by his own admission. I had previously discussed him learning things from me, but it certainly was not a formal training situation.





pdqdl said:


> `
> Now you say there was no escape route either. [No I didn't. We were completely open on about 120° around the tree. I stated only that he left the last essential part of the cut in the most difficult position to reach]



More on the training too in green


pdqdl said:


> Part of my training style is to tell people how to do things, then let them try to do it. Review, then repeat. He and I had discussed how to set the tree where we wanted it, and I had told him how to make the face cut. After that, it was all on him. There wasn't any unusual risk to this tree, although he created some by leaving the last uncut part of the tree on the most difficult side of the tree: where_ there was no escape path_.





pdqdl said:


> `
> You are in a thread about how to fell a tree and here is the scenario you just painted:
> 
> I trained a rookie [No, I never called him a rookie. This is a young fellow that climbs trees for a living, swinging from a rope with a chainsaw. He had about 2 years of professional climbing experience with 3 different companies]





pdqdl said:


> This was a young fellow working for another contractor who just happened to be a bit green, even by his own admission.



The problem I had was this
We are in a thread on how to cut down a tree..
You paint yourself as someone with experience and described a training situation you did...
You left out parts that you later brought up that bring some clarification, however it comes across that you trained the person to do what he did and _let him _do it that way.
It is one of the most dangerous ways to cut a tree like that in a already dangerous job.

I wont address your other stuff like personal attacks on loggers and me, just not into that game.


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## square1 (May 31, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> no its one of those stats that tells where tree fallers die & if you want to reduce the risks of dieing you move outside that distance in the escape zone.


I don't doubt your statement. My point is the time it takes a tree being felled to cause injury or death is less than or equal to the time it takes to traverse 6 meters in the majority of situations with regard to the work conditions. It stands to reason the highest percentage of injuries and deaths occur within 6 meters. It would be interesting to know what percentage of those killed or injured inside the 6 meter zone had not yet began their escape.

Although my initial post was somewhat tongue in cheek with reference to running with or without your saw while screaming like a girl, trust me I do make safety a top priority. I want to return home every day no worse off than when I left. I wish everyone the same success.


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

If we can survive the trees attacking us, we can sure endure ruthless attacking by fellow members .Lol.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=UUBrYP6l33_UxuJlTsTR_z7A&v=X9Co0ieERww


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## square1 (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> If we can survive the trees attacking us, we can sure endure ruthless attacking by fellow members .Lol.


I like your video, but can't bring mysef to click the "like" button due to the lack of screaming as you ran.


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

I really wanted to scream, but was too busy filling my pants and it wasn't with sawdust.Lol


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## MustangMike (May 31, 2015)

And here I thought this thread would be over when I used the great advice to drop these tree w/o incident!

I still thank everyone for their advice, but really did not expect the rest of this!


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## square1 (May 31, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> And here I thought this thread would be over when I used the great advice to drop these tree w/o incident!
> 
> I still thank everyone for their advice, but really did not expect the rest of this!


It's raining here, what else am I going to do?


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> And here I thought this thread would be over when I used the great advice to drop these tree w/o incident!
> 
> I still thank everyone for their advice, but really did not expect the rest of this!


I'm glad your tree didn't go sideways, but it appears your thread did. Lol


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

square1 said:


> I don't doubt your statement. My point is the time it takes a tree being felled to cause injury or death is less than or equal to the time it takes to traverse 6 meters in the majority of situations with regard to the work conditions. It stands to reason the highest percentage of injuries and deaths occur within 6 meters. It would be interesting to know what percentage of those killed or injured inside the 6 meter zone had not yet began their escape.
> 
> Although my initial post was somewhat tongue in cheek with reference to running with or without your saw while screaming like a girl, trust me I do make safety a top priority. I want to return home every day no worse off than when I left. I wish everyone the same success.


One a tree starts to tip it easy to retreat a safe distance, over cutting or cutting the hinge off doesn't give enough time, me personally I take three big steps, leave the saw then take a good few more looking over my shoulder as I go to where I look & get ready to move again if needed, when falling timber up to 50 meters high stuff can be easily broken off & flicked back way past the stump, I've never seen anybody screaming as they run away, maybe we have tougher girly man types here.
Also here tree climbers & fallers need to get the same training to fall trees, fallers don't get the other skills of climbing which arborists need.
Thansk


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## MarkEagleUSA (May 31, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Thansk


You really need to edit the signature on whatever device you're posting from. Unless, of course, your name in Thanks.


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> If we can survive the trees attacking us, we can sure endure ruthless attacking by fellow members .Lol.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=UUBrYP6l33_UxuJlTsTR_z7A&v=X9Co0ieERww


I liked the baseball cap hard hat.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (May 31, 2015)

MarkEagleUSA said:


> You really need to edit the signature on whatever device you're posting from. Unless, of course, your name in Thanks.


I'm part Russian. Especially when retreating from a falling tree.
Thansk


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## MustangMike (May 31, 2015)

At least he is wearing ear protection, so he won't have to hear it coming!

Amazing, standing proud in the shadow of that feat!


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## gomoto69 (May 31, 2015)

I don't see any undercut at all in that tree, just kept sawing till something happened i guess! And i don't think the 6m safety rule applies when standing directly under a baberchaired tree that can fall at any moment! Someone take that man's chainsaw away an teach him how to weave baskets or something, although he would probably cut himself with scissors!


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> I don't see any undercut at all in that tree, just kept sawing till something happened i guess! And i don't think the 6m safety rule applies when standing directly under a baberchaired tree that can fall at any moment! Someone take that man's chainsaw away an teach him how to weave baskets or something, although he would probably cut himself with scissors!


Lol, I couldn't place an undercut because the tree was wind thrown already and the butt was severely shattered.
The crown was firmly hung up already in a larger maple. I just severed it as best I dare and choked it with skidder , finished the cut and winched it down wilst screaming like a little girl!
How come loggers are more persecuted than Jesus Christ? Lol.


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

What's wrong in this picture?


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## gomoto69 (May 31, 2015)

Ha, keeps a guy busy i guess! Something like that just jump on the skidder an push it down, no use in putting yourself or your saw in danger, besides it's more fun dropping trees with a skidder than a chainsaw!


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## cgraham1 (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What's wrong in this picture?View attachment 428118


What's wrong, is he's not using a "Humbolt" cut... But, I'm still trying to figure out why none of you idiots can spell Humboldt? Maybe it's cuz...


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## gomoto69 (May 31, 2015)

What's wrong? What isn't! Should never get pinched making a facecut cuz it shouldn't be more than 1/3 diam., that looks more like 60%. You can't tip that tree over without getting the facecut opened up, there's nowhere for it to go, hinge gonna break, 50 50 on whether it squashes your saw or goes the other way, pretty much for sure your bar gets wrecked either way. Use your ax to get the pinched saw out, or make another proper facecut a couple feet above the pinched saw, then tip it from there, better odds for the saw, ax is best bet tho. Between the 2 of ya, did anyone bother to look up, even once? Might as well mention no hardhats, chaps, etc etc. I'm assuming you guys must be religious, because somebody's looking out for you!


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## Big_Wood (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What's wrong in this picture?View attachment 428118



everything!


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

What's a Humbolt Clint? I always thought you hum a tune, then you bolt, screaming like a lil girl. Lol


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## Chris-PA (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What's wrong in this picture?View attachment 428118


The saws don't match! Everyone knows when you use two saws they must be the same color - those clash horribly!


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## Big_Wood (May 31, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> What's wrong? What isn't! Should never get pinched making a facecut cuz it shouldn't be more than 1/3 diam., that looks more like 60%. You can't tip that tree over without getting the facecut opened up, there's nowhere for it to go, hinge gonna break, 50 50 on whether it squashes your saw or goes the other way, pretty much for sure your bar gets wrecked either way. Use your ax to get the pinched saw out, or make another proper facecut a couple feet above the pinched saw, then tip it from there, better odds for the saw, ax is best bet tho. Between the 2 of ya, did anyone bother to look up, even once? Might as well mention no hardhats, chaps, etc etc. I'm assuming you guys must be religious, because somebody's looking out for you!



look at the guy with his saw in the undercut. his saw is spitting chips. these guys aren't pinched at all. they are just straight up brain dead.


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## cgraham1 (May 31, 2015)

A better question is, why were these loggers in Humboldt County not using a Humboldt cut?


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## Chris-PA (May 31, 2015)

cgraham1 said:


> A better question is, why were these loggers in Humboldt County not using a Humboldt cut?
> View attachment 428123


If they had that guy would have fallen out. Duh!


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## gomoto69 (May 31, 2015)

Pretty hard crosscutting uphill! We had to use it because the mill said they lost over $100,000 a year trimming off conventional undercuts. Those old boys had an endless supply! 
My apologies about the pinched comments, photo isn't very big on my phone, most of the comments still apply tho!


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## weedkilla (May 31, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> look at the guy with his saw in the undercut. his saw is spitting chips. these guys aren't pinched at all. they are just straight up brain dead.


Nah. Guy with the husky just got sick of waiting.


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## Big_Wood (May 31, 2015)

cgraham1 said:


> A better question is, why were these loggers in Humboldt County not using a Humboldt cut?
> View attachment 428123



it was likely written by a dummy who don't know what a humboldt is. it's all to common in this day and age. try swinging an axe making a humboldt and you'll know why they didn't use them in those days LOL


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

Here's another douche nozzle who shouldn't be allowed out on the street.


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## Big_Wood (May 31, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Nah. Guy with the husky just got sick of waiting.



i'm just trying to figure which one is gypo LOL


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## Big_Wood (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Here's another douche nozzle who shouldn't be allowed out on the street.




that one right there i think is your best vid john. i think how you walked out in front of the cut up tree when you said back to the drawing board really added that gypo touch to it LOL.


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## HuskStihl (May 31, 2015)

Most of gypo's vids aren't him. I don't think of going past 33% on a face cut is sinful. It's useful on smaller head-leaners to eliminate some heartwood. Have to be good at reading trees to put in a deeper face, as if you guess wrong you can't wedge urself out of trouble


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> that one right there i think is your best vid john. i think how you walked out in front of the cut up tree when you said back to the drawing board really added that gypo touch to it LOL.


What I don't get Shane, is how you knew it was me? I'm quite shy and was trying to stay anonymous. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Most of gypo's vids aren't him. I don't think of going past 33% on a face cut is sinful. It's useful on smaller head-leaners to eliminate some heartwood. Have to be good at reading trees to put in a deeper face, as if you guess wrong you can't wedge urself out of trouble


Jon, it's hard to argue with those that go by the book. The tree doesn't really care how big the undercut is unless gravity pervades. It's nice that all trees are different.


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## bnmc98 (May 31, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Most of gypo's vids aren't him. I don't think of going past 33% on a face cut is sinful. It's useful on smaller head-leaners to eliminate some heartwood. Have to be good at reading trees to put in a deeper face, as if you guess wrong you can't wedge urself out of trouble



I will go deeper than 1/3, especially trying to swing a tree, or if I want to take one sideways from the lean, or a real neutral hard to read tree. Helps put more weight over the face.


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## gomoto69 (May 31, 2015)

I've never read a book on falling trees, just telling what very seasoned professional fallers taught me, guys who do this for a living, and have many years of experience, including falling giant cedar (10'plus) on steep inclines, and are still alive. I listen to what i learn from people like this. You can cut your trees anyway you like, i'm simply telling you how the pros do it


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## bnmc98 (May 31, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> You can cut your trees anyway you like, i'm simply telling you how the pros do it



I cut trees for money


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I cut trees for money


I peel for money.


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

It's time to get serious here. Lol.


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## Creeker (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What's wrong in this picture?View attachment 428118




What's wrong, it's easy to see they should both have been using pole saws in such a dangerous tree.

Obviously expert fallers though as they have hearing unimpeded with ear muffs and clearer vision without them glasses some pansies wear.

We fall like that all the time in AUS., get twice the life out of yr saw too !!


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## whitedogone (May 31, 2015)




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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> here goes - probably a waste of time but....
> 
> More on the training too in green
> 
> ...



Ok. That was a good conciencent effort at quoting me. Rather than misquoting me, you did a nice job of setting my statements side by side. So far, I have failed to see any conflicting statements that you quoted me on.

So...I think your bone of contention is that I called one side of the tree "no escape path", and that makes it an unsuitable place to cut the tree? _I will answer to that accusation._ As has been pointed out in this thread, most experienced fallers are willing to reach around the tree and cut on the uncomfortable side first, so that they can use the available escape path on the easy side of the tree. That is what he didn't do to begin with, and that is what I insisted that he do on the finish to the cut. Had he attempted to stand on that side of the tree, there would have been no escape path. Hence, the value of this experience: he was learning how it became necessary to reach around to finish a cut, rather than starting on the reach to begin with.

I see all the other quotes you posted, but I am not aware of any part that disagrees with any other point I was making. Perhaps you think a rookie is anyone with less than mastery of their trade? I don't use that terminology. As it is generally used in pro sports, I believe that a rookie is someone in their first year. Since this was not the case, I do not choose to accept any substituted terminology other than the words I choose.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE: We discussed how to make the cut, he didn't do it the way I told him, and then I showed him how to finish the job anyway. If you take that as "bad and dangerous" training...well good luck in your quest for students that always do what you tell them.

Ok. I get it. You think that every tree worker (and try to remember that this guy wasn't even my employee) should never be allowed to risk failure, that the more experienced person should always have their hands on the saw or be prepared to physically snatch it out of the hands of anyone who might not execute a perfect cut. That isn't how I work, I will never make part of my training efforts dependent upon eliminating all risk, and I damned sure do not plan on spoon feeding grown men each and every step on the job.

I wish you well in your plans to teach anyone how to run a saw. If you ever attempt to train anyone with the same critical, negative perspective that you apparently interpret my posts in this thread, you will probably discover that everyone but the most spineless employee would quit, leaving you with no help whatsoever.


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## bnmc98 (May 31, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Ok. That was a good conciencent effort at quoting me. Rather than misquoting me, you did a nice job of setting my statements side by side. So far, I have failed to see any conflicting statements that you quoted me on.
> 
> So...I think your bone of contention is that I called one side of the tree "no escape path", and that makes it an unsuitable place to cut the tree? _I will answer to that accusation._ As has been pointed out in this thread, most experienced fallers are willing to reach around the tree and cut on the uncomfortable side first, so that they can use the available escape path on the easy side of the tree. That is what he didn't do to begin with, and that is what I insisted that he do on the finish to the cut. Had he attempted to stand on that side of the tree, there would have been no escape path. Hence, the value of this experience: he was learning how it became necessary to reach around to finish a cut, rather than starting on the reach to begin with.
> 
> ...



Do you feel better now; getting that off your chest?

I hear what you are saying about me...
I'm ready to move on and let things die, how about you?


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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> no its one of those stats that tells where tree fallers die & if you want to reduce the risks of dieing you move outside that distance in the escape zone.
> Thansk



Sure. Better yet, eliminate all that fatal risk and never go near the tree.


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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> we only know what you told us & we responded to that. It seems that if anybody disagrees with you they are a troller, BTW defence is spelt with a "c" in the English speaking world.
> Thansk



I humbly submit my apologies. I was not aware the the Queen & her subjects spelt it any different than the rebellious english speaking folks across the water.

I stand corrected. In fact, I think you guys probably have it right. That spelling makes more sense to me; it's just that we don't spell it that way in "American English". After all, the sport they play with long pointy things is "fencing", not "fensing", and I think we all acknowledge that good fences make good neighbors.


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## Gypo Logger (May 31, 2015)

Could be worse, we could all have caulk tracks on our face and be chewing snoose.


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## pdqdl (May 31, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I'm glad your tree didn't go sideways, but it appears your thread did. LolView attachment 427894



Man, that is insanity. I sure hope you don't teach anyone else to stand under the lean that way.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Man, that is insanity. I sure hope you don't teach anyone else to stand under the lean that way.


If I recall correctly, I pitched my tent under that leaner. You gotta trust things sometimes.


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What's wrong in this picture?View attachment 428118



Chew should always be stored in the right cheek pocket. Anybody knows that.


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## MustangMike (Jun 1, 2015)

Clint, sorry about that, I am that idiot who can't spell, I'm just a #s guy!

But, FYI, Thomas Jefferson once said he had nothing but contempt for a man who could only spell a word one way! (then that dang dictionary came out).


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## MustangMike (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Chew should always be stored in the right cheek pocket. Anybody knows that.



Honest, I was gonna say the same thing!!!


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## Bwildered (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Sure. Better yet, eliminate all that fatal risk and never go near the tree.


Paper cuts can be quite nasty it has been said.
Thansk


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

You guys have it all wrong. This guy here in Oregon by the name of Piltz, see, he is the expert's expert on tree falling and bucking. He says he is a pro logger and arborist. He sells and uses small saws with really long low profile B&C, like a Stihl MS250 with a 24 inch. He is above using any PPE as well. He says that is just a waste of money and gets in the way. Above all else, you have to look cool when cutting anything. Even when no one is looking.

Master Piltz at work here:


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Most of gypo's vids aren't him. I don't think of going past 33% on a face cut is sinful. It's useful on smaller head-leaners to eliminate some heartwood. Have to be good at reading trees to put in a deeper face, as if you guess wrong you can't wedge urself out of trouble



So true, but that was the habit I was explaining that got all this squabble about training started to begin with. In the urban midwest, where trees are much wider than tall, it is unusual to see anyone that ever uses a wedge. Around here, I get funny looks when I try to tell folks how useful they are.

Admitedly, I mostly use them when I am bucking up a big tree trunk.


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## MustangMike (Jun 1, 2015)

Why that's not a saw, it's a hand cooler!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> You guys have it all wrong. This guy here in Oregon by the name of Piltz, see, he is the expert's expert on tree falling and bucking. He says he is a pro logger and arborist. He sells and uses small saws with really long low profile B&C, like a Stihl MS250 with a 24 inch. He is above using any PPE as well. He says that is just a waste of money and gets in the way. Above all else, you have to look cool when cutting anything. Even when no one is looking.
> 
> Master Piltz at work here:



The Piltzmeister sure knows how to bugger up a good sawlog. Lol


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

Too big of a face cut can be a bad thing...


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> The Piltzmeister sure knows how to bugger up a good sawlog. Lol



Nothing I have seen that he bucks up goes to any mills. My guess is firewood, though he makes big claims otherwise.


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## Bwildered (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> So true, but that was the habit I was explaining that got all this squabble about training started to begin with. In the urban midwest, where trees are much wider than tall, it is unusual to see anyone that ever uses a wedge. Around here, I get funny looks when I try to tell folks how useful they are.
> 
> Admitedly, I mostly use them when I am bucking up a big tree trunk.


Commercial fallers wear wedges out from pounding them into what seems to be every second tree some days, evenly formed & balanced trees can be easily pushed anyway you want with a wedge while keeping a safe hinge thickness for control, I have associates that are urban based tree workers, who never go a day with out wedging over a pruned bole, when it gets really tight & tricky a line is always used to pull them over to land in an exact location, like between buildings & such.
Thansk


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

I bang wedges in as soon as I can on pretty much every cut, unless I am doing a strap back cut. I think I went overboard on this tree though. Whaddayah think, John? More Viagra?


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## 2dogs (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I bang wedges in as soon as I can on pretty much every cut, unless I am doing a strap back cut. I think I went overboard on this tree though. Whaddayah think, John? More Viagra?
> 
> 
> View attachment 428146


Looks fine to me. Been there.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 1, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Looks fine to me. Been there.


I am sweating just thinking of using and hitting all those.


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> ...
> I'm ready to move on and let things die, how about you?



We're good.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I bang wedges in as soon as I can on pretty much every cut, unless I am doing a strap back cut. I think I went overboard on this tree though. Whaddayah think, John? More Viagra?
> 
> 
> View attachment 428146


Nice job on the wedging Henry. That tree and the wedges don't owe you much.
Like tampons, you drive them in like a thumbtack.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 1, 2015)

Misread this one and it sat back. A little wedge pounding at 100 degrees is good exercise


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## Bwildered (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> You guys have it all wrong. This guy here in Oregon by the name of Piltz, see, he is the expert's expert on tree falling and bucking. He says he is a pro logger and arborist. He sells and uses small saws with really long low profile B&C, like a Stihl MS250 with a 24 inch. He is above using any PPE as well. He says that is just a waste of money and gets in the way. Above all else, you have to look cool when cutting anything. Even when no one is looking.
> 
> Master Piltz at work here:



There is a perfectly logical reason for no PPE for some, same sex marriage, having the same boring sex for 30 years! By not wearing any muffs he doesn't have to go home & hear anything she / he has to say either & by not wearing a hard hat could put him completely out of his misery one day.
Thansk


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Looks fine to me. Been there.



Yah, I double them up a lot as well. Usually one or two singles and then start stacking them if the damn thing does not tip. I found a trick for 'sharpening' wedges, as they get pretty beat up pretty fast. I scrape/rub them on asphalt pavement to take out the dings and warped plastic.


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Misread this one and it sat back. A little wedge pounding at 100 degrees is good exercise




Misreads and sitting back are the main reasons I pound in wedges as soon as I can. By the time they lean back, its usually too late and the damn thing flips back and then falls 180 degrees from your target area. In Southern Oregon the old timers told me that I will not be an experienced faller until a tree I line up and cut spins out before the back cut is complete, rotates and falls 180 degrees from my intended drop zone and lands square on my saw. Bonus points awarded if it barber chairs, or nails your lunch box or oil and gas cans.


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## Bwildered (Jun 1, 2015)

I wish they made plastic wedges that held up to the flogging that good alloy ones do, this one has been ground back many many times 
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

Pounding wedges can be brutal if your fighting a Dutchman or a back cut that is lower than the undercut.
Sometimes wedges will lift the tree, but not enough to make it fall. A skidder can push it over or you can refall the tree or cut off the sides or quickly saw out the heart.
Does anyone remember the air Jack you could hook up to your Husqvarna?


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

I used to push problem cut trees over with a bucket on our Kubota. Bob (gologit) got all over my case here for doing that, but it was very effective, especially on big alders that I was falling then. Alders tend to split and barber a lot. The local fallers in that area liked my idea.

Read here today that Bob is trying to remove all of his posts on AS and leave this site forever.


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Misreads and sitting back are the main reasons I pound in wedges as soon as I can. By the time they lean back, its usually too late and the damn thing flips back and then falls 180 degrees from your target area. In Southern Oregon the old timers told me that I will not be an experienced faller until a tree I line up and cut spins out before the back cut is complete, rotates and falls 180 degrees from my intended drop zone and lands square on my saw. Bonus points awarded if it barber chairs, or nails your lunch box or oil and gas cans.



I'm guessing that you are still a newbie then?


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

Bob and I did not get along, so I am afraid that will not distress me too much.


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I'm guessing that you are still a newbie then?



I have never lost a saw to a tree, no. Thus I remain 'inexperienced' by Oregon old timer faller standards. I do have some bonus points racked up though.


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## windthrown (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Bob and I did not get along, so I am afraid that will not distress me too much.



He and I went round and round on a few issues here. I met him at a GTG once and he is a reasonable fellow. That was before he became a mod here though. I was off this site during that time but I heard some bad things happened here then. The resentment lingers. At least he is a lifetime experienced logger/faller though. Compare that to the Reverend Brush Ape, or some other tools here.


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## MustangMike (Jun 1, 2015)

Well, I didn't loose the saw, but a B&C, tank holder, and I had to straighten out the handle, and the chain cover is cracked, but she still runs great (and I learned to never trust free help).


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

I Kubota'ed over a few trees and even felled one on my new one. The tree was worth more than the repair.
Btw, don't take no chit from Gologit, he ain't no logger. He might be able to pack wedges though.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> He and I went round and round on a few issues here. I met him at a GTG once and he is a reasonable fellow. That was before he became a mod here though. I was off this site during that time but I heard some bad things happened here then. The resentment lingers. At least he is a lifetime experienced logger/faller though. Compare that to the Reverend Brush Ape, or some other tools here.



i don't really hold much faith in golickit. to me he seems more of a machine operator then a faller. a machine operator can learn alot sitting in his chair LOL. just seems like he never had any valuable input in any actual falling threads. he just comes in and makes his presence known and because he is known to be a forestry worker people shy away from replying to his posts. same with randymac. i have no doubt he fell redwoods for a living and he must have done something right cause he's still alive but there are many things like the bore cut he doesn't agree with. maybe he never needed it or couldn't use it affectively with tree's that big? maybe hes like every old faller i know and has memory issues causing him to forget that he used it his whole life? not sure but there are alot of things that don't add up with these characters. seems i use the bore cut every day and if not for sure every second day. myself, i'd rather fall big tree's anyday and i find them way easier and safer to fall. i'm sure randymac would disagree but i find they move slower and are much more predictable. as long as you know how to cut them they can be sent in the right direction and have plenty of time to get away. what i hate are the second growth north facing slopes with ALOT of dead or rotten wood. now that **** is dangerous. oh yeah, macs suck!!!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)




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## MustangMike (Jun 1, 2015)

WC90, I agree, larger trees (to a point) are more predictable, and rot, lean (the wrong way) and hang ups are what I hate.

That said I don't pretend to be a pro, and I have never felt the need for a bore cut. I like to keep it simple as possible. Being familiar with what you know how to do is 9/10 of keeping yourself out of trouble.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i don't really hold much faith in golickit. to me he seems more of a machine operator then a faller. a machine operator can learn alot sitting in his chair LOL. just seems like he never had any valuable input in any actual falling threads. he just comes in and makes his presence known and because he is known to be a forestry worker people shy away from replying to his posts. same with randymac. i have no doubt he fell redwoods for a living and he must have done something right cause he's still alive but there are many things like the bore cut he doesn't agree with. maybe he never needed it or couldn't use it affectively with tree's that big? maybe hes like every old faller i know and has memory issues causing him to forget that he used it his whole life? not sure but there are alot of things that don't add up with these characters. seems i use the bore cut every day and if not for sure every second day. myself, i'd rather fall big tree's anyday and i find them way easier and safer to fall. i'm sure randymac would disagree but i find they move slower and are much more predictable. as long as you know how to cut them they can be sent in the right direction and have plenty of time to get away. what i hate are the second growth north facing slopes with ALOT of dead or rotten wood. now that **** is dangerous.


Good post, Golickit is a novelist, he can't walk the talk. And a self righteous tea totaler to boot.


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> He and I went round and round on a few issues here. I met him at a GTG once and he is a reasonable fellow. That was before he became a mod here though. I was off this site during that time but I heard some bad things happened here then. The resentment lingers. At least he is a lifetime experienced logger/faller though. Compare that to the Reverend Brush Ape, or some other tools here.



I have pretty much been off-site ever since Bob & I tangled over more than just some argument in some stupid thread. I won, he lost, but I was so pissed about his actions I pretty much abandoned any of the tree-related forums. You are *so* right: the resentment lingers.

I have not heard of this Rev. Brush Ape except once, by a reference only. What is the story there?


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## pdqdl (Jun 1, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i don't really hold much faith in golickit. to me he seems more of a machine operator then a faller. a machine operator can learn alot sitting in his chair LOL. just seems like he never had any valuable input in any actual falling threads. he just comes in and makes his presence known and because he is known to be a forestry worker people shy away from replying to his posts. same with randymac. i have no doubt he fell redwoods for a living and he must have done something right cause he's still alive but there are many things like the bore cut he doesn't agree with. maybe he never needed it or couldn't use it affectively with tree's that big? maybe hes like every old faller i know and has memory issues causing him to forget that he used it his whole life? not sure but there are alot of things that don't add up with these characters. seems i use the bore cut every day and if not for sure every second day. myself, i'd rather fall big tree's anyday and i find them way easier and safer to fall. i'm sure randymac would disagree but i find they move slower and are much more predictable. as long as you know how to cut them they can be sent in the right direction and have plenty of time to get away. what i hate are the second growth north facing slopes with ALOT of dead or rotten wood. now that **** is dangerous.



Wow! I sure never got that feeling back when I was more active. It used to be that anytime someone from anywhere but the Pacific NW ventured into the loggers forum, they were roundly shouted down and discouraged from any participation (or so it seemed to me). Our opinions were not worthy. Now I am finding out that he wasn't that all fired popular.

Where were you guys when I was duking it out with him?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have pretty much been off-site ever since Bob & I tangled. I won, he lost, but I was so pissed about his actions I pretty much abandoned any of the tree-related forums.
> 
> I have not heard of this Rev. Brush Ape except once, by a reference only. What is the story there?


If I never hear from that MoFo ever again, it's too soon for me. lol. I always liked Slowp's posts though.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Good post, Golickit is a novelist, he can't walk the talk. And a self righteous tea totaler to boot.


 
you saying great post means absolutely nothing til you like it you damn prick


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

Let's not talk about the "has beens".


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 1, 2015)

windthrown said:


> He and I went round and round on a few issues here. I met him at a GTG once and he is a reasonable fellow. That was before he became a mod here though. I was off this site during that time but I heard some bad things happened here then. The resentment lingers. At least he is a lifetime experienced logger/faller though. Compare that to the Reverend Brush Ape, or some other tools here.


That's our Beat it!Bull Bucker Bullchit Bob!
Hahahahaha


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## weedkilla (Jun 2, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Misreads and sitting back are the main reasons I pound in wedges as soon as I can. By the time they lean back, its usually too late and the damn thing flips back and then falls 180 degrees from your target area. In Southern Oregon the old timers told me that I will not be an experienced faller until a tree I line up and cut spins out before the back cut is complete, rotates and falls 180 degrees from my intended drop zone and lands square on my saw. Bonus points awarded if it barber chairs, or nails your lunch box or oil and gas cans.


As a wiser man than me says "a truthier post I never read". 
It's the f-ups that you learn from. Especially when you think you've done everything right and it still goes tits up. 
I just think I was lucky, feral tree felling is the easiest school to learn in. Lots to fell, no timber saved, and if it all goes the wrong way - most of the time you just say oops. As long as you stay alive and learn as you go it's golden. 
Dunno that I'd ever make a production faller, but I've had enough "oops" moments to be reasonably confident of my own limits.


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## 2dogs (Jun 2, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> There is a perfectly logical reason for no PPE for some, same sex marriage, having the same boring sex for 30 years! By not wearing any muffs he doesn't have to go home & hear anything she has to say either & by not wearing a hard hat could put him completely out of his misery one day.
> Thansk


WTF?


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## 2dogs (Jun 2, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have pretty much been off-site ever since Bob & I tangled over more than just some argument in some stupid thread. I won, he lost, but I was so pissed about his actions I pretty much abandoned any of the tree-related forums. You are *so* right: the resentment lingers.
> 
> I have not heard of this Rev. Brush Ape except once, by a reference only. What is the story there?



So like most cowards you are going to talk tough once someone is no longer here. What a man you are.


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## Bwildered (Jun 2, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 428245


This reminds me of a insurance company ad on TV at the moment, it starts out " we don't insure captain risk, (showing some guy doing dangerous stunts ) so you can have lower premiums" lol
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 2, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Pounding wedges can be brutal if your fighting a Dutchman or a back cut that is lower than the undercut.
> Sometimes wedges will lift the tree, but not enough to make it fall. A skidder can push it over or you can refall the tree or cut off the sides or quickly saw out the heart.
> Does anyone remember the air Jack you could hook up to your Husqvarna?


I don't get refalling a tree! Do you stand it back up again if you didn't video it properly the first time? Lol
Thansk


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## bnmc98 (Jun 2, 2015)

I had one yesterday, had a wedge in it and it sat back hard. I was trying to fall it a long a fence so it would be easier to get out. I took one hit (which didn't do much) looked at my wedges, looked at the tree again, looked at my ax, and.....

said forget that crap, ripped through the hinge and let her fly where she may.
Had to cut two more down to make room to get it out but that still probably took less time and effort than it would have to beat that piece of junk over.


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## pdqdl (Jun 2, 2015)

2dogs said:


> So like most cowards you are going to talk tough once someone is no longer here. What a man you are.



That is some pretty tough language for a ninny that doesn't seem to know the facts. As I stated before, I had many conflicts with him before, and I was not prone to mincing words with him. I have this to say, and then I am done with you:

You are a ninny, and don't know the facts.
Several people say disparaging things about the man, and I only comment that I didn't like him. I never said anything to you or about you, so I don't understand your position. 

I have no reason to defend myself against your accusations. Your blindside attack is unwarranted and your opinion of me has no value that I can find...you sound completely unworthy of any further response from me.


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## pdqdl (Jun 2, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I don't get refalling a tree! Do you stand it back up again if you didn't video it properly the first time? Lol
> Thansk



I think he means abandon the cut that was not working right and start over (usually higher up the tree) with a correcting cut.


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## pdqdl (Jun 2, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I had one yesterday, had a wedge in it and it sat back hard. I was trying to fall it a long a fence so it would be easier to get out. I took one hit (which didn't do much) looked at my wedges, looked at the tree again, looked at my ax, and.....
> 
> said forget that crap, ripped through the hinge and let her fly where she may.
> Had to cut two more down to make room to get it out but that still probably took less time and effort than it would have to beat that piece of junk over.



For for less money in equipment and time than you think, it is easy to throw a rope high into a tree and pull them anywhere you want them to go. Then you don't work as hard to clean up the messes.


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## weedkilla (Jun 2, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> For for less money in equipment and time than you think, it is easy to throw a rope high into a tree and pull them anywhere you want them to go. Then you don't work as hard to clean up the messes.


And if you throw like forest gump does calculus then the APTA is a godsend. (That'd be me....)


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## bnmc98 (Jun 2, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> For for less money in equipment and time than you think, it is easy to throw a rope high into a tree and pull them anywhere you want them to go. Then you don't work as hard to clean up the messes.



I've never actually done that. Never thought of it even.
Usually there is nothing to hit (except leave trees) and I have about 270 degrees to work with for the skidder to get it out (unless I need to stick to my lead so there's no pick up sticks). 

So I'm usually - get er down and on to the next ASAP. 

I'll tuck it away in my memory banks though for special instances.


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## pdqdl (Jun 2, 2015)

Well...of course you don't bother with directional falling until it becomes important. But when it is important, the thrown rope beats the heck out of ladders, tree climbing, or even pounding yourself blue in the face on a wedge.

That thrown rope can also be used to hoist a winch line from a skidder, and I will bet that is about enough motivation to make any tree go where you want it.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 2, 2015)

I have never seen guys around here use a rope, have seen wedges


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## weedkilla (Jun 2, 2015)

Ropes are for residential work. I can't imagine ever using one in the scrub.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 2, 2015)

fallers do use directional falling to stay in lead. skidder operators would quit if we didn't. rope? don't own any. i do own lots of 3/4" steel cable and several log skidders. you don't have to be way up in a tree to pull it with a skidder, 12' is usually plenty if its faced and cut up right.
we are talking about two different professions here, there are only some similaritys between the two.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 2, 2015)

here's how I pull one over with the skidder.

Put the dozer against the tree - mash the gas pedal

Some don't even have a single chainsaw cut in them


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 2, 2015)

Roping is handy, but is reserved for falling near fences, buildings etc unless the lean is painfully obvious and you can't hit something you shouldn't. There's something about trees, you will never tir of falling them.
We don't want to make it look too easy while the homeowner is hiding in the basement. Lol.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 2, 2015)

I carry enough junk on me while falling, and sometimes I don't see the truck for half a day, and if its that long, its usually a long walk. I really don't think I can pack anymore stuff like rope very efficiently. It is much easier for me to find a different way to dump the tree. Or, start pounding wedges. Which is why I carry at least 4 and a 5lb axe.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 2, 2015)

2dogs said:


> So like most cowards you are going to talk tough once someone is no longer here. What a man you are.


2dogs, with all due respect I can't figure out why you are defending Bob. His big brother advice and know it all attitude was a real turn off for most that could see thru his BS.
I've met men before with a small man's complex, but Bob's took the cake.
If I'm wrong, Im big enough to face the music.
Help us out here.


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## MustangMike (Jun 2, 2015)

I use ropes often, but then again, I'm often near roads, houses & / or power lines. You just don't want anything to go wrong. Better safe than sorry. And that goes double on a breezy day when your tree is full of leaves.


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## pdqdl (Jun 2, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Ropes are for residential work. I can't imagine ever using one in the scrub.



Almost certainly. We use the ropes to prevent damage to whatever is beneath the tree. Out in the brush, it doesn't matter much where the tree falls, so why bother setting ropes? 

Nonetheless, I think it is a valuable skill for all tree workers to know how to do. It doesn't hurt to carry around one more trick in your head, and someday it might come in handy. 

I use the same trick for hanging almost anything from a tree, and I never go without firewood for campfires in a public campground. I just pull out my 5lb bag of tricks and start yanking dead wood out of the trees, where none of the other campers could ever get it. It is invariably well seasoned wood and the campground actually benefits by the removal. I get free firewood, it is recreational for me, and the spectators seem to enjoy it too. Of course, some of them think I am nuts, too.


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## weedkilla (Jun 3, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I just pull out my 5lb bag of tricks QUOTE]
> 
> 
> weedkilla said:
> ...


----------



## Gologit (Jun 3, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I've met men before with a small man's complex, but Bob's took the cake.
> If I'm wrong, Im big enough to face the music.



Yup, you're wrong John. Again.
Don't take my avatar too seriously, I'm actually five ten so your "small man" comment isn't valid. Neither is most of anything else you've said.

That's okay though. I like to see you do what you do best...talking. You're not good for much else.

I'm glad that you, Westcoaster90, and PDQDL get along so well. Even idiots need peer group approval and you guys are a good fit for each other.

Have a nice day John.


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## pioneerguy600 (Jun 3, 2015)

Everyone having so much fun over here on this thread, how could I have missed this!!


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## Gologit (Jun 3, 2015)

Just lucky I guess Jerry.


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## Spectre468 (Jun 3, 2015)

So, Mike, did you ever get this beast on the ground?


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## MustangMike (Jun 3, 2015)

See post 122, and I did not intend to start WWIII.

But I did appreciate all the advice, and I did learn some new things, so not all bad!

Hope everyone has a good day, finally stopped raining here (after 3 days of non stop) so I'm going back outside soon.


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## pioneerguy600 (Jun 3, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Just lucky I guess Jerry.



I actually did get some reports about this thread but thought what the heck, you fellas are all grown ups and can withstand a little backwoods banter. I have survived many years in the woods hearing much worse. Carry on.


----------



## Gologit (Jun 3, 2015)

pioneerguy600 said:


> I actually did get some reports about this thread but thought what the heck, you fellas are all grown ups and can withstand a little backwoods banter. I have survived many years in the woods hearing much worse. Carry on.



Yup, gotta consider the source.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 428245



Tractor abuse!


----------



## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> If I never hear from that MoFo ever again, it's too soon for me. lol. I always liked Slowp's posts though.



I also met her at a GTG. Not much I can say about her. I moved her into my ignore list because she knows *everything* about southern WA state, except everything that I know about it which is pretty much the exact opposite. I live all of 30 miles below the Columbia River here, and I get up there a lot. She is such a contradiction and seems to just want to fight all the time.


----------



## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have not heard of this Rev. Brush Ape except once, by a reference only. What is the story there?



The Rev. Brush Ape, AKA: Brush Ape, Yogi Brush Ape, Brush Ape Everlasting, So Fuzzy and Cute, Ronald Reagan, Woodcutter TV, Hwansta Blomie, PioneerGay600, Stump Shot, Shod, Overclock, and a few hundred more logins that have mostly been banned, the most recent being .404. He is the gran puta troll of trolls on this site.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> For for less money in equipment and time than you think, it is easy to throw a rope high into a tree and pull them anywhere you want them to go. Then you don't work as hard to clean up the messes.



I have used ropes in arbor falling in the city, but never in the woods. Different world out here. I have never seen them used in the woods in the west either. Trees are big and there is nothing to throw a rope around in trees that have their crowns pushed up for a low taper. I cabled and chained a lot of them up but that was when they were on the ground for skidding. My dad had land out near Mt Hood with a lot of big azz Dougs when I was a kid. He used to have a fellow come out with a bull dozer and tip them over. No saws were used to drop them. He would just cut out a crescent of roots on the side that my dad wanted the trees felled toward, and then he would put the shovel up as high as he could on the other side and over it would go, root crown and all. No stumps left that way either, he would shove them into a slash pile fir later burning after we bucked the logs. That was where I got the idea to tip over problem trees with the Kubota bucket in Southern Oregon. It worked.


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 3, 2015)

It's nice to see everyone getting along[emoji3]


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

Its the AS of old here...


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## Cope1024 (Jun 3, 2015)

windthrown said:


> The Rev. Brush Ape, AKA: Brush Ape, Yogi Brush Ape, Brush Ape Everlasting, So Fuzzy and Cute, Ronald Reagan, Woodcutter TV, Hwansta Blomie, PioneerGay600, Stump Shot, Shod, Overclock, and a few hundred more logins that have mostly been banned, the most recent being .404. He is the gran puta troll of trolls on this site.



And thanks to him, every new poster, including me, is accused of being the newest incarnation by at least one member.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

Cope1024 said:


> And thanks to him, every new poster, including me, is accused of being the newest incarnation by at least one member.



How yah doin' Ape?


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 3, 2015)

I have a hunch captinrattlehead is brush ape....read his threads......the new one is the poplar thread.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

The ape does not post photos like that. He is way more anonymous.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 3, 2015)

pioneerguy600 said:


> I actually did get some reports about this thread but thought what the heck, you fellas are all grown ups and can withstand a little backwoods banter. I have survived many years in the woods hearing much worse. Carry on.


Lol, I bet it was Bull Bucker Bob that did the reporting. That's really all he's good for.
He deserves a metal for the most reviled mod, ex mod that is.
A dead rat around his neck sounds about right. Lol.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

I thought that Bob wanted to remove all his posts and quit this site? Yet he posts here... (where is the old thinking monkey emoticon of AS old?).


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## bitzer (Jun 3, 2015)

Gypo you drunk again? Every video and picture of timber you've cut screams of medocrity. Chain wrapping and wedges in the bucks.

The rest of you rope tuggers got er all figured out.

Where the hell is marshy and Svk? If this thread was in the logging section they wuda shut it down ten pages ago! I like the banter tho! Makes it fun! Thats what this place should be ahout!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 3, 2015)

[QUOTE="Gologit, post: 5391606, member: 6589

I'm glad that you, Westcoaster90, and PDQDL get along so well. Even idiots need peer group approval and you guys are a good fit for each other.

Have a nice day John.[/QUOTE]
It's not my fault they don't like you either. 
Hahaha.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 3, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Gypo you drunk again? Every video and picture of timber you've cut screams of medocrity. Chain wrapping and wedges in the bucks.
> 
> The rest of you rope tuggers got er all figured out.
> 
> Where the hell is marshy and Svk? If this thread was in the logging section they wuda shut it down ten pages ago! I like the banter tho! Makes it fun! Thats what this place should be ahout!


No, I just got home from peeling some logs.
Glad you like my vids and pics.
Thx


----------



## svk (Jun 3, 2015)

windthrown said:


> The Rev. Brush Ape, AKA: Brush Ape, Yogi Brush Ape, Brush Ape Everlasting, So Fuzzy and Cute, Ronald Reagan, Woodcutter TV, Hwansta Blomie, PioneerGay600, Stump Shot, Shod, Overclock, and a few hundred more logins that have mostly been banned, the most recent being .404. He is the gran puta troll of trolls on this site.


Good memory but you missed a few lol.


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## svk (Jun 3, 2015)

Cope1024 said:


> And thanks to him, every new poster, including me, is accused of being the newest incarnation by at least one member.


You are cleared.


----------



## svk (Jun 3, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> I have a hunch captinrattlehead is brush ape....read his threads......the new one is the poplar thread.


Nope. 

BA is among us though.


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 3, 2015)

He missed Mystihlwontstart.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> No, I just got home from peeling some logs.
> Glad you like my vids and pics.
> Thx



You still jerking off logs to peel them? That must be getting old.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 3, 2015)

windthrown said:


> You still jerking off logs to peel them? That must be getting old.


Ya, should be done by Sunday. 46 logs, about 36,000 feet of Sitka. 
Is it ok if I have a beer now guys?
I'll post another mediocre picture tomorrow.


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## windthrown (Jun 3, 2015)

WTF? I would think you would be thorough a 6 pack by now. I am. Raining really hard here now. Came in from the thunder this afternoon. I finished up splitting all my new hemlock for next winter's heat this am. Supposed to be in the 80s today, but its been a moisture event today. Again. Stupid blonde on TV got it wring! She is hot though. 

Hey, whaddya debarking all that damn Sitka for? Log houses? The photos of the logs have those huge checks. They look to be splitting themselves.


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## svk (Jun 3, 2015)

windthrown said:


> The ape does not post photos like that. He is way more anonymous.


You are right. He has a dry sense of humor. Quick wit too.


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## svk (Jun 3, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> He missed Mystihlwontstart.


Not him either.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 3, 2015)

Ya, for a log house. These ones are for another house. I'm Stihl on my first beverage.


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## windthrown (Jun 4, 2015)

Oh man, that looks like a fork of a lot of work.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2015)

Peeled some cedar bark,was thinking of you when doing it John,slight slice with my axe and it peels off in sheets,fresh fall so tree is soaked inside,so bark false off so easy


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## MustangMike (Jun 4, 2015)

Used a draw knife to remove the bark from the Ash pieces I used as angle braces on my cabin (the left over pieces from cutting the posts & beams from the logs). If they were not dead for just the right amount of time, that bark was real tough to remove. It was real work!


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## pdqdl (Jun 4, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I thought that Bob wanted to remove all his posts and quit this site? Yet he posts here... (where is the old thinking monkey emoticon of AS old?).



I ventured into the logging forum and found a closed thread where many there were whining about the enforcement of the rules. Ain't that complaining about the moderation, Bob? 

Somewhere in there I read a post from him that indicated he had reconsidered.


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## pdqdl (Jun 4, 2015)

Gologit said:


> ...
> I'm glad that you, Westcoaster90, and PDQDL get along so well. Even idiots need peer group approval and you guys are a good fit for each other...



Sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black.

You know, if you weren't always turning up your nose at folks and calling them names, you might find yourself a little more popular. I guess popularity isn't your goal, since you have all the peer group approval you need.

I read the thread where you (and others) are whining about the decline in quality members because they are being driven away. I guess that your peer group is getting smaller & smaller, eh? At the present trend, someday you will find yourself without peer.


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## bitzer (Jun 4, 2015)

Yeah the F&L will be cleared out sooner than later. Maybe you should hop up there and run the show. You seem to know a lot about cutting trees.


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## Bwildered (Jun 4, 2015)

I use the rounded corner edge of the push arm on my dozer blade to debark all my logs, not a mark on the logs, I don't even raise a sweat & it only takes a few minutes.
Thansk


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## pioneerguy600 (Jun 4, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Peeled some cedar bark,was thinking of you when doing it John,slight slice with my axe and it peels off in sheets,fresh fall so tree is soaked inside,so bark false off so easy



If possible we do all our tree peeling in the spring, the renewed growth after the winter causes the trees to get very slimy between the green outer growth ring and the bark. Just split the bark and it will nearly fall off or peel really easy off spruce and pine in the spring.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2015)

That is how this cedar log was,layer of water slime stuff between bark and tree, bark almost slid off on its own once sliced with the axe,just the knots took a little prying to get past,being so wet was dulling my mill chain faster than normal for some reason,maybe plugging the cutters?


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## Moparmyway (Jun 4, 2015)

On small angle top plate chains, I have found the corners get packed by wet wood very easily.
I found that the more the angle of the top plate, the less this happens
Isnt your milling chain about 10 deg top plate ?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 4, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I thought that Bob wanted to remove all his posts and quit this site? Yet he posts here... (where is the old thinking monkey emoticon of AS old?).


That's one of the classic symptoms of the small man syndrome.
Bob reminds me of the big frog in the little pond, sitting on a lillypad saying," Go Lick It, Go Lick It, Go Lick It".
Hahaha.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> On small angle top plate chains, I have found the corners get packed by wet wood very easily.
> I found that the more the angle of the top plate, the less this happens
> Isnt your milling chain about 10 deg top plate ?



Yes ,i grind it on the usg so it is round on the mill to get the 10 degrees with zero tilt ,maybe i should try sliding the base 10-15 degrees to make more aggressive side plate ,zero leaves a pretty nice finish though ,i thought was dirt in the bark maybe so peeled the logs first ,but it is the real wet wood dulling the chain faster than normal ,it is .404 also ,i can normally mill a whole tree 5-6 logs with a sharpen ,i am getting dull after one to two 13 foot logs now,corner feels pointy still , but not cutting fast .


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## MustangMike (Jun 4, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I use the rounded corner edge of the push arm on my dozer blade to debark all my logs, not a mark on the logs, I don't even raise a sweat & it only takes a few minutes.
> Thansk



Can I please borrow that dozer, just don't happen to have one yet!!!!! It is nice to have the right equipment, but some of us are just small time!


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## Bwildered (Jun 4, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Can I please borrow that dozer, just don't happen to have one yet!!!!! It is nice to have the right equipment, but some of us are just small time!


I was told once to never lend your wife or equipment, because they will always be returned in the same condition.
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 4, 2015)

What oil ratio should I be using in my saws?
Thx,
John


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## Moparmyway (Jun 4, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> ,maybe i should try sliding the base 10-15 degrees to make more aggressive side plate ,



If that produces a more agressive top plate angle, then go for it !!!!


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> If that produces a more agressive top plate angle, then go for it !!!!


In milling too agressive will be faster ,but leave more marks in the wood ,its compromise if want a nicer finish ,thats why the 10 degree top plate ,it cuts smaller chips so does not mark up the boards as much ,plus the 10 degrees does not seem to dull as fast .


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What oil ratio should I be using in my saws?
> Thx,
> John


Potato


----------



## Moparmyway (Jun 4, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> In milling too agressive will be faster ,but leave more marks in the wood ,its compromise if want a nicer finish ,thats why the 10 degree top plate ,it cuts smaller chips so does not mark up the boards as much ,plus the 10 degrees does not seem to dull as fast .


Its allways a compromise


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## mdavlee (Jun 4, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> In milling too agressive will be faster ,but leave more marks in the wood ,its compromise if want a nicer finish ,thats why the 10 degree top plate ,it cuts smaller chips so does not mark up the boards as much ,plus the 10 degrees does not seem to dull as fast .


Have you tried square on the mill? It made a better finish for me in the softer woods than semi @15°.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 4, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Have you tried square on the mill? It made a better finish for me in the softer woods than semi @15°.


I have not yet i have a .404 i just sharpened i may try, it is about 20 degrees ,i need to play with the adjustments on the silvey see if 10 degrees is even possible on that grinder.


----------



## mdavlee (Jun 4, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have not yet i have a .404 i just sharpened i may try, it is about 20 degrees ,i need to play with the adjustments on the silvey see if 10 degrees is even possible on that grinder.


I hand filed what I ran. It was close to factory angles.


----------



## windthrown (Jun 4, 2015)




----------



## windthrown (Jun 4, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Potato


Pototto


----------



## weedkilla (Jun 4, 2015)




----------



## pdqdl (Jun 4, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Yeah the F&L will be cleared out sooner than later. Maybe you should hop up there and run the show. You seem to know a lot about cutting trees.



I have no interest in visiting online with a bunch of jerks. Sorry, but that is my opinion of F&L. If I wanted to get into the logging business, I would find another website to ask my questions of the experts. It's not like there is a shortage of friendlier forums for that sort of thing.

Insulting, pompous, and condescending are what I hear when I look at you guys' posts. If you wonder why the F&L is clearing out, just go back and read some of your posts to the "outsiders". It is apparent that you guys don't really want any new members, so the natural attrition of any group is taking it's toll. If you think I am wrong, then I invite you to show me otherwise.

My bad attitude towards loggers in general is the result of my past interactions with the regular members of the F&L forum, and I was recently a bit peevish with some fellows in this thread that may not have deserved it, based solely on the fact that they were loggers. Since I am big enough to admit that mistake, perhaps you guys can learn to be a bit less exclusive. 

Then again, I personally wouldn't care if you F&L cretins that follow Gologit's lead just devolve into a small circle of old timers that do nothing more than pat each other on the back while they insult everyone else that didn't join their circle jerk.


----------



## olyman (Jun 5, 2015)

windthrown said:


> I also met her at a GTG. Not much I can say about her. I moved her into my ignore list because she knows *everything* about southern WA state, except everything that I know about it which is pretty much the exact opposite. I live all of 30 miles below the Columbia River here, and I get up there a lot. She is such a contradiction and seems to just want to fight all the time.


  worthy of the clapping........


----------



## olyman (Jun 5, 2015)

Somewhere in there I read a post from him that indicated he had reconsidered.[/QUOTE]
for only a bit,,then he starts in again...with his helper...


----------



## olyman (Jun 5, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> No, I just got home from peeling some logs.
> Glad you like my vids and pics.
> Thx


 much like..you show pics,,with YOU in them,,of things you do..mr intended,,not so much,,just hazy distance shots...the real deal..and as winthrown said,,hes more of a skidder operator....


----------



## olyman (Jun 5, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have no interest in visiting online with a bunch of jerks. Sorry, but that is my opinion of F&L. If I wanted to get into the logging business, I would find another website to ask my questions of the experts. It's not like there is a shortage of friendlier forums for that sort of thing.
> 
> Insulting, pompous, and condescending are what I hear when I look at you guys' posts. If you wonder why the F&L is clearing out, just go back and read some of your posts to the "outsiders". It is apparent that you guys don't really want any new members, so the natural attrition of any group is taking it's toll. If you think I am wrong, then I invite you to show me otherwise.
> 
> ...


 whew,,spot on,,


----------



## olyman (Jun 5, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> What oil ratio should I be using in my saws?
> Thx,
> John


 500:1. that way,,,youll have a short day at work....... im almost sure,,that mr professional logger may use that.. being the best,,he can rest....


----------



## pdqdl (Jun 5, 2015)

If you are going to go 500:1, you should make sure that you use 140 weight oil. Forget about that thin synthetic stuff, it sticks to the metal better. Even if you are going to mix your oil at 250:1, the gear oil will still keep those days shorter and more pleasant.


----------



## pioneerguy600 (Jun 5, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> That is how this cedar log was,layer of water slime stuff between bark and tree, bark almost slid off on its own once sliced with the axe,just the knots took a little prying to get past,being so wet was dulling my mill chain faster than normal for some reason,maybe plugging the cutters?



That maybe why we let them dry before milling them but then again we took logs straight from the mill pond and ran them through the rotary and they didn`t seem to dull the cutters any faster than dry peeled logs did. We never dragged logs over bare ground or gravel, would have got our arses kicked real hard if we did that. Embedded grit, stones or metal is a sawyers nightmare.


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## windthrown (Jun 5, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> View attachment 428702



So why the tat with 'a potato'? Is that some OzSpeak thing or what?

When I was a kid, Mr. Potato Head was my favorite toy. That was in the days when we used real spuds as the body.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Jun 5, 2015)

pioneerguy600 said:


> That maybe why we let them dry before milling them but then again we took logs straight from the mill pond and ran them through the rotary and they didn`t seem to dull the cutters any faster than dry peeled logs did. We never dragged logs over bare ground or gravel, would have got our arses kicked real hard if we did that. Embedded grit, stones or metal is a sawyers nightmare.



yes just rolling them will pick up dirt ,that is why i peeled the bark ,either that or the hose is not far from my mill ,just run the log over there and rinse it off


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## bitzer (Jun 5, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have no interest in visiting online with a bunch of jerks. Sorry, but that is my opinion of F&L. If I wanted to get into the logging business, I would find another website to ask my questions of the experts. It's not like there is a shortage of friendlier forums for that sort of thing.
> 
> Insulting, pompous, and condescending are what I hear when I look at you guys' posts. If you wonder why the F&L is clearing out, just go back and read some of your posts to the "outsiders". It is apparent that you guys don't really want any new members, so the natural attrition of any group is taking it's toll. If you think I am wrong, then I invite you to show me otherwise.
> 
> ...



Do you think that maybe those offended are a bunch of pansies? I was a newb to the logging forum once. It was 90 percent PNWers then. I listened to what they had to say and I didn't **** myself when I didn't agree with them or them with me. A couple years later I started my own logging buisness. I bought a skidder and saws and started cutn for a mill. I'm in my fourth year now with more work than I know what to do with and a good reputation.


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## weedkilla (Jun 5, 2015)

windthrown said:


> So why the tat with 'a potato'? Is that some OzSpeak thing or what?
> 
> When I was a kid, Mr. Potato Head was my favorite toy. That was in the days when we used real spuds as the body.


That's a bad English translation tattoo- or perhaps someone who really wanted to commemorate the great potato reply.


----------



## treeslayer2003 (Jun 5, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I have no interest in visiting online with a bunch of jerks. Sorry, but that is my opinion of F&L. If I wanted to get into the logging business, I would find another website to ask my questions of the experts. It's not like there is a shortage of friendlier forums for that sort of thing.
> 
> Insulting, pompous, and condescending are what I hear when I look at you guys' posts. If you wonder why the F&L is clearing out, just go back and read some of your posts to the "outsiders". It is apparent that you guys don't really want any new members, so the natural attrition of any group is taking it's toll. If you think I am wrong, then I invite you to show me otherwise.
> 
> ...


you know, some times you just never know who your talking to or about.............there may be more "jerks" than you think.


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## bitzer (Jun 5, 2015)

Heres one of those 30 min east of the rockys falling vids. Yeah I bypassed kerfs a little, but I was going for speed to prove a point. It was of no consequence. 32" bar Husky 390. Just outside the tip red oak 2 years ago.


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## bitzer (Jun 5, 2015)

Heres the last time I bore cut a tree. Sometime in February I think. The one behind it sheared off earlier and it would have been irresponsible to leave it. It was too high up to pull down safely so I had to cut it out. This is a soft maple swamp full of ice. I'm wearing corks, but one wrong step on a stick and I'd be down.


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## gomoto69 (Jun 5, 2015)

You had already cut your face cut then bored through from the hinge to almost out the back? Did the video just show you cutting what was left holding?


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## bitzer (Jun 5, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> You had already cut your face cut then bored through from the hinge to almost out the back? Did the video just show you cutting what was left holding?


Yes. Well and the carnage.


----------



## gomoto69 (Jun 5, 2015)

Safest way you could have cut that, works good on really heavy leaners too. Amazing how quick a guy gets on his feet when stuffs falling at ya!


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## HuskStihl (Jun 5, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Heres the last time I bore cut a tree. Sometime in February I think. The one behind it sheared off earlier and it would have been irresponsible to leave it. It was too high up to pull down safely so I had to cut it out. This is a soft maple swamp full of ice. I'm wearing corks, but one wrong step on a stick and I'd be down.



That one would have killed Snelling two or three times


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 5, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> That one would have killed Snelling two or three times


that scenario has killed plenty of experienced fallers who thought they could get out of the way....


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## MustangMike (Jun 5, 2015)

I've got one worse than that on my upstate property, 4 wind damaged trees all inter connected. I've studied it several times trying to figure which one to take first, what will fall clear, what branches may come down on me, or throw back. I guess I'm kinda hoping the wind finishes the job it started, but if it doesn't I'll probably mess with it sooner or later. Luckily, it is in an area we seldom go to, so people are rarely under it.


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## weedkilla (Jun 5, 2015)

I dunno how you guys can film this stuff. I feel like I'm tempting fate by getting a camera.


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## gomoto69 (Jun 6, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I've got one worse than that on my upstate property, 4 wind damaged trees all inter connected. I've studied it several times trying to figure which one to take first, what will fall clear, what branches may come down on me, or throw back. I guess I'm kinda hoping the wind finishes the job it started, but if it doesn't I'll probably mess with it sooner or later. Luckily, it is in an area we seldom go to, so people are rarely under it.


 Have a look for a big heavy tree close enough to reach them. Carefully cut up the snags by boring like above, but leave a bit to hold them, then tip a big tree into the whole mess, keeps you at a safer distance


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Heres the last time I bore cut a tree. Sometime in February I think. The one behind it sheared off earlier and it would have been irresponsible to leave it. It was too high up to pull down safely so I had to cut it out. This is a soft maple swamp full of ice. I'm wearing corks, but one wrong step on a stick and I'd be down.



Why would you be stupid enough to place yourself in such a dangerous situation? Arsehole!


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## olyman (Jun 6, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Why would you be stupid enough to place yourself in such a dangerous situation? Arsehole!



that's him, mr big talk......


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

Lol, he kinda looked like a dweeb with the affectatious hard hat and the perfunctory 36" cruisers axe dangling off his belt. Only thing that was missing was a ripped shirt. Lol
Some guys don't even know how to look the part.


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## bitzer (Jun 6, 2015)

Axe has a 2 ft handle John and the shirt was ripped. Pants too, just tear mended together. I wear the hat so my face doesn't get peeled off. I like that you know big words. Makes me feel not so lonely.

I've yet to see any pictures or video from you Oly.


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## olyman (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Axe has a 2 ft handle John and the shirt was ripped. Pants too, just tear mended together. I wear the hat so my face doesn't get peeled off. I like that you know big words. Makes me feel not so lonely.
> 
> I've yet to see any pictures or video from you Oly.


 who said I needed any..your providing plenty of garbage..............don't like what gypo says???? putting you in your place??? aint that tooo bad....


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## bitzer (Jun 6, 2015)

The face peeling comment was a jab at him. I told him he should be wearing a hat the week before he caught that widow maker. You've really got nothin huh? How many bf you cut last year then? I put myself in my own place.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Heres one of those 30 min east of the rockys falling vids. Yeah I bypassed kerfs a little, but I was going for speed to prove a point. It was of no consequence. 32" bar Husky 390. Just outside the tip red oak 2 years ago.




i am mostly just saying this to pick on BC for their strict regulations. i agree with it to a point but there is no reason a guy can't stay safe doing it other ways. a **** up is a **** up. some will get you in trouble and some will be fine if compensated for. have a few stumps like that in your quarter stumbled upon by a WCB official here and you'll be on the next plane leaving camp. i know, strict but it's just the way it goes. i find it quite easy to make sure everything is to code and still have wood on the ground as fast as someone sloppy with their work can.


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## rwoods (Jun 6, 2015)

What part of the stump ran contrary to BC standards? Ron


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## gomoto69 (Jun 6, 2015)

Undercuts need to be cut clean, no overcuts on the corners


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## olyman (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The face peeling comment was a jab at him. I told him he should be wearing a hat the week before he caught that widow maker. You've really got nothin huh? How many bf you cut last year then? I put myself in my own place.


 and that you do.. way up in the sky,,on your proud ladder..will be a nice fall...........


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## olyman (Jun 6, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i am mostly just saying this to pick on BC for their strict regulations. i agree with it to a point but there is no reason a guy can't stay safe doing it other ways. a **** up is a **** up. some will get you in trouble and some will be fine if compensated for. have a few stumps like that in your quarter stumbled upon by a WCB official here and you'll be on the next plane leaving camp. i know, strict but it's just the way it goes. i find it quite easy to make sure everything is to code and still have wood on the ground as fast as someone sloppy with their work can.


like the post above this one?????


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## bitzer (Jun 6, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i am mostly just saying this to pick on BC for their strict regulations. i agree with it to a point but there is no reason a guy can't stay safe doing it other ways. a **** up is a **** up. some will get you in trouble and some will be fine if compensated for. have a few stumps like that in your quarter stumbled upon by a WCB official here and you'll be on the next plane leaving camp. i know, strict but it's just the way it goes. i find it quite easy to make sure everything is to code and still have wood on the ground as fast as someone sloppy with their work can.


I have a pic of the stump somewhere. It looks tighter in the pic than the video. Nice uniform hinge. I will get it up if I can find it. Yer right though. Faces should be clean. No intentional dutchmans up there? I use em every day to save my tree or leave trees. Hardwood canopy and select cut is a little different I would imagine.


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## gomoto69 (Jun 6, 2015)

To be honest, i don't know anything about dutchmen's, or how and why they're used. I do know wcb was picky about any sloppy undercuts tho, and that was years ago, so i'm sure it's worse now. My son is an arborist, and they're not even allowed to use their top handle saws one handed if the safety guy is around. They're supposed to tie off the limb, cut it with 2 hands, then lower it, and i'm talking about 1 and 2" fir limbs


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## bnmc98 (Jun 6, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Why would you be stupid enough to place yourself in such a dangerous situation? Arsehole!




Um... run sideways.

10 ft to the right you have a wall of trees to hide behind.
Easy to make undangerous...


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 6, 2015)




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## Big_Wood (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I have a pic of the stump somewhere. It looks tighter in the pic than the video. Nice uniform hinge. I will get it up if I can find it. Yer right though. Faces should be clean. No intentional dutchmans up there? I use em every day to save my tree or leave trees. Hardwood canopy and select cut is a little different I would imagine.



there was a time where a guy couldn't even be out a pencil width in his undercut up here. i do believe they have lightened up and the intentional dutchman is allowed now but of course they have all these measurements a faller has to go by and he has to be evaluated to be sure of his understanding and competency doing it. it is BS so don't tell me it is cause i already know LOL my grandpa's 74 years old and was a faller his whole life. i think he broke his arm or some **** and had a couple close calls but that's it and you should see the stumps he makes! disgusting!! but he's alive so who's to say he wasn't safe. he fell during a time where there were no regulations. started back in the day when they handed you an old pioneer and told you to go cut old growth with no training at all. before the 090's time! here in B.C fallers get audited once a week and some times even more if their workmanship goes for **** for one reason or another. at the end of the day, getting paid the extra dollars and not having to deal with every goof job who wants to become a faller is worth the bureaucratic BS. i'm not saying all fallers are goof jobs. what i mean is the certification keeps the ones that shouldn't be in the woods out of the woods. there are guys who want to do it cause they think it makes them look cool and ones that want to do it because they really do love the work. the guys who are out to look cool should not be in the woods.


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## rwoods (Jun 6, 2015)

Sorry, I just re-read your post and see you said "stumps". By his admission and watching the video, we all knew the "over cuts" were unintentional, I was just wondering how the stump inspector could make that determination unless of course others of his stumps were cut the same. Ron


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## Big_Wood (Jun 6, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Sorry, I just re-read your post and see you said "stumps". By his admission and watching the video, we all knew the "over cuts" were unintentional, I was just wondering how the stump inspector could make that determination unless of course others of his stumps were cut the same. Ron



what i gathered is his overcuts were intentional from trying to be fast. i never said he couldn't make a good stump. what i said was showing a pattern of making stumps like that here will put a guy out of work. all it really takes is 3 or 4. WCB are a bunch of misguided pricks though. they'll pick out 3 bad stumps and judge you by that ignoring the 300 good ones LOL


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## gomoto69 (Jun 6, 2015)

The regulations are good in theory, came about because a lot of men lost their lives falling trees, same thing in the oil patch, safety standards are a good thing, but everything the gov't tries to control goes to sh!t, some kid outa university decides the safe way to do things, no common sense at all, oil patch is way worse, i've been on jobs where there's more safety people and medics than actual workers


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## rwoods (Jun 6, 2015)

I was just curious as I thought somebody must be real picky up your way to bust a faller over that stump. I am just a hack and can only wish I could get enough practice to line up cuts consistently. Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 6, 2015)

hmm, i am self taught and unregulated.......but to me no or very little pull in the log is more important than what the stump looks like. of course there is safety to consider, but to me thats hard to judge just from the stump.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

The saw was pretty fast and the faller didn't hesitate which is good.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

Here's an interesting cut on a Sitka spruce which I peeled today. I don't know the faller, but he's from Haines Alaska.
Probably a leaner judging by the plunge cut.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 6, 2015)

i personally think all the regulations here in BC are absolute BS and don't agree with it whatsoever. it is what it is though and i just have to forget about it or die young. here's a really great read for you guys and i totally agree with the guy. if you guys have the time it's an awesome read. it's all 100% true. we got ****ed over by that council and they've made it their career so aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 

http://www.trudemocracy.net/bc-forest-safety-council.html


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## bitzer (Jun 6, 2015)

Like I said I was trying to prove a point in speed. I didn't try to bypass my cuts, but I knew I was close enough not to care. I hit my corners the majority of the time the first time. I make sure my faces are clean when I need them to be. I was also trying to give you a little kick in the shorts coaster. Not all of us east of the rockies are idiots. I wear corks and run a full wrap with big dogs. I've adapted a lot of west coast style because its a hell of a lot more effcient and fun. I don't bore hard leaners either. Coos bay. I bore about 6 times a year. Its situations like that second video. Here all a guy needs to do is pony up his 1000 bucks for workers comp and he can cut. No training. I'm 90 percent self taught. That was my second year of production cutting. Nobody looks at my stumps but me. I keep em clean as a matter of pride. I will find the pic and you will see what I mean.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 6, 2015)

Hey Bitz, I remember the thread and found the stump pic. I can say I've never matched cuts as well


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## bnmc98 (Jun 6, 2015)

Sometimes I will flush the butt because I don't want to get crap from the processor. But, most of the time, the bigger ones don't respond real different to a little slop. I bet bitzers tree went just where he wanted it to. (the ground - unbroken)
Westcoaster, for 6 digits a year, do what they want, you can always cut productively later on


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Like I said I was trying to prove a point in speed. I didn't try to bypass my cuts, but I knew I was close enough not to care. I hit my corners the majority of the time the first time. I make sure my faces are clean when I need them to be. I was also trying to give you a little kick in the shorts coaster. Not all of us east of the rockies are idiots. I wear corks and run a full wrap with big dogs. I've adapted a lot of west coast style because its a hell of a lot more effcient and fun. I don't bore hard leaners either. Coos bay. I bore about 6 times a year. Its situations like that second video. Here all a guy needs to do is pony up his 1000 bucks for workers comp and he can cut. No training. I'm 90 percent self taught. That was my second year of production cutting. Nobody looks at my stumps but me. I keep em clean as a matter of pride. I will find the pic and you will see what I mean.


No need for oppolagis, I thought you did good. Are you coming across any veneer?


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## pdqdl (Jun 6, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i am mostly just saying this to pick on BC for their strict regulations. i agree with it to a point but there is no reason a guy can't stay safe doing it other ways. a **** up is a **** up. some will get you in trouble and some will be fine if compensated for. have a few stumps like that in your quarter stumbled upon by a WCB official here and you'll be on the next plane leaving camp. i know, strict but it's just the way it goes. i find it quite easy to make sure everything is to code and still have wood on the ground as fast as someone sloppy with their work can.



Just out of curiosity: what is to keep a feller from taking his saw and cleaning up a not-to-code stump?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

Another one bites the dust!


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## big t double (Jun 6, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Another one bites the dust!



Nice kick at the end there Pele'


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## Big_Wood (Jun 6, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Like I said I was trying to prove a point in speed. I didn't try to bypass my cuts, but I knew I was close enough not to care. I hit my corners the majority of the time the first time. I make sure my faces are clean when I need them to be. I was also trying to give you a little kick in the shorts coaster. Not all of us east of the rockies are idiots. I wear corks and run a full wrap with big dogs. I've adapted a lot of west coast style because its a hell of a lot more effcient and fun. I don't bore hard leaners either. Coos bay. I bore about 6 times a year. Its situations like that second video. Here all a guy needs to do is pony up his 1000 bucks for workers comp and he can cut. No training. I'm 90 percent self taught. That was my second year of production cutting. Nobody looks at my stumps but me. I keep em clean as a matter of pride. I will find the pic and you will see what I mean.



i apologize man, i probably come off as a real prick alot of days. while i do feel there are alot of SCARY easterner vids there has gotta be alot of good guys that way. there's a climber on youtube who calls himself tarzan thomas. can't remember where he's from and haven't watched any of his vids in while but man i wish i could work like that. mostly just learning to climb productively as right now it takes me all day to deal with a tree and they aren't even close to as limby as some of those oaks and cottonwood. would be nice to have a guy who knows what he's doing to learn some climbing techniques tarzan thomas fights fires too IIRC.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 6, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Just out of curiosity: what is to keep a feller from taking his saw and cleaning up a not-to-code stump?


They blast off the offending hinge off the stump, toss it in the woods and say they were just lowering the stump.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 7, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Just out of curiosity: what is to keep a feller from taking his saw and cleaning up a not-to-code stump?



you could clean up some problems but it's SO much easier to just make sure your cuts are all satisfactory. you should see the audits they do here. i think i have a few blanks here. i'll take a look tomorrow and post pics if i remember.


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## bitzer (Jun 7, 2015)

Tarzan used to be on here. Hes a good guy from Montana. He was a production faller and has had a saw in OG redwood. Haven't heard from him in a while, but he still talks to a few guys that hang in the f&l.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 7, 2015)

there is a new regulation now that will make it so WCB will have to ignore stumps of already fallen tree's. the audits will be on tree's they actually watch you fall. so as long as you do the ones they watch you fall to their standard i guess it'll be smooth sailing.


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## bitzer (Jun 7, 2015)

Jesus, do you have a rule book in yer lap?


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## Big_Wood (Jun 7, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Jesus, do you have a rule book in yer lap?



I do. LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 7, 2015)

I was hoping I could get certified as I missed out on grandfathering .I'd probably flunk. But a women in charge told me that if it takes 30 minutes to dump a tree, then be so it. Plus, don't start your saw till you pull down the face screen. And she said to place an x on your glove or tatoo to remind you to check up on your buddy. Just some big brother advice from a woodtick.
John


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## Big_Wood (Jun 7, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I was hoping I could get certified as I missed out on grandfathing. I'd probably flunk. But a women in charge told me that if it takes 30 minutes to dump a tree, then so it. Plus, don't start your saw till you pull down the face screen. And she said to place an x on your glove or tatoo to remind you to check up on your buddy. Just some big brother advice from a woodtick.
> John



i've never discussed how long it took to fall a tree with them. the face screen is also not required just to start the saw either. i'm not trying to be a dink gypo but if those video's are actually you you got alot of old habits to break before you even consider trying for certification here. i encourage you to do so if you are willing to break some habits though. maybe i'll see ya out there! i'd kick the **** and drink a few beers with ya  yer one of the best culls here!


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 7, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Here's an interesting cut on a Sitka spruce which I peeled today. I don't know the faller, but he's from Haines Alaska.
> Probably a leaner judging by the plunge cut.View attachment 429093


Look at the fibers,he pinched his saw when the tree went the wrong way,then he cut into the face to fall it backwards of the face cut,I have had a couple logs like that myself,if there is room, it is quicker to just cut into the face and let it go the way it wants to


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## olyman (Jun 7, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> what i gathered is his overcuts were intentional from trying to be fast. i never said he couldn't make a good stump. what i said was showing a pattern of making stumps like that here will put a guy out of work. all it really takes is 3 or 4. WCB are a bunch of misguided pricks though. they'll pick out 3 bad stumps and judge you by that ignoring the 300 good ones LOL


 pricks are the best part of a man,,his head not withstanding....


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## olyman (Jun 7, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> The regulations are good in theory, came about because a lot of men lost their lives falling trees, same thing in the oil patch, safety standards are a good thing, but everything the gov't tries to control goes to sh!t, some kid outa university decides the safe way to do things, no common sense at all, oil patch is way worse, i've been on jobs where there's more safety people and medics than actual workers


 gov,,and their hacks, like to keep each other employed,,so you and I can pay their benes and overpriced wages.........and give them a glorious retirement, of the backs of you and me....


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## Bwildered (Jun 7, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> that scenario has killed plenty of experienced fallers who thought they could get out of the way....


I agree, it shouldn't have been touched at all by the Faller, it's too risky, those are like a giant rat trap, the broken tree should have been snigged over. If no machine is available the area should be taped off until it can be dealt with
Thansk


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## gomoto69 (Jun 7, 2015)

olyman said:


> gov,,and their hacks, like to keep each other employed,,so you and I can pay their benes and overpriced wages.........and give them a glorious retirement, of the backs of you and me....


100% agree with you on that one!


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## bitzer (Jun 7, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I agree, it shouldn't have been touched at all by the Faller, it's too risky, those are like a giant rat trap, the broken tree should have been snigged over. If no machine is available the area should be taped off until it can be dealt with
> Thansk


Well it was the last day of the job. I already had the lowboy scheduled for the morning. It was too high up to safely grab with the forwarder and yank down. Thats what I do with most of my hangers. Ideally i would have dumped another tree into the two, but as you can see trees where gettin scarce. The one next to them was leaning hard at the camera. I'm a one man crew. Even if I had a ladder to throw something around it the ground was all ice. Maybe a throwline and then rope and then cable, but I don't ever carry that stuff with me. No need to. Treeslayer has a point, but I was sure of the situation. The standing tree was also a backstop of sorts. I filmed this to show how ugly **** can be sometimes. Not to show how much of a badass i am. I had the camera along that day and had filmed a bunch of others. This just happened. My number one goal is to ma k e it home to my wife and kids at the end of the day. You do what you have to do. Its not all black and white out there.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 7, 2015)

once you were on the other side of that standing tree, I think you were good. I always look for protector tree to dart behind.
Plus, you can't see how wrapped up it was up top. To me that's one of the biggest deciding factors, if it's wrapped up pretty good and can't slide off, I feel a lot more confident about safety.


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## pdqdl (Jun 7, 2015)

Don't you keep any twine or string in the truck? Tie a rock to it, throw it over the tree then pull a chain or cable over. I think I could have just tossed a chain over that one pretty easy. Someday you will be a bit older and won't feel like running from them.

You looked quite capable of handling it the way you did. I give you big points for expediency & skill.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 7, 2015)

Other than the obvious danger, the difference lies in wether your working for yourself or another outfit.
If your working for someone else it's easy enough to exercise your right of refusal.
If your working for yourself you have days if not weeks to consider and reconsider the situation.
No one every said it was a safe or easy job, however we can mitigate the danger and sometimes not.
If in doubt, it's best to walk away.


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## svk (Jun 7, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Plus, you can't see how wrapped up it was up top. To me that's one of the biggest deciding factors, if it's wrapped up pretty good and can't slide off, I feel a lot more confident about safety.


+1. That's the thing. There's a lot of backslapping or deriding by a few on here depending on where the subject in question resides. Unless you are on the ground at the cutting site there are too many variables to judge a situation like this.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 7, 2015)

There's a term for knowingly going into a dangerous situation. It's known as "contemptuous familiarity".
Many have died by this axiom, but some are still walking and talking, but for how long?
From now on, I'm not going to do anything dangerous, I'm getting too old.


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## svk (Jun 7, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> There's a term for knowingly going into a dangerous situation. It's known as "contemptuous familiarity".
> Many have died by this axiom, but some are still walking and talking, but for how long?
> From now on, I'm not going to do anything dangerous, I'm getting too old.


I heard this quote of an old Alaskan bush pilot. "There's two type of bush pilots: old pilots and bold pilots."


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 7, 2015)

just to clarify, i was not busting on ol bitz, i have done similar............i just avoid it if i can now. make no mistake, our work is dangerous. only experience will tell you if you can handle a situation.


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## Bwildered (Jun 7, 2015)

svk said:


> I heard this quote of an old Alaskan bush pilot. "There's two type of bush pilots: old pilots and bold pilots."


But there are no old bold pilots. The saying pretty well sums up all dangerous occupations
Thanks


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## bitzer (Jun 7, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Don't you keep any twine or string in the truck? Tie a rock to it, throw it over the tree then pull a chain or cable over. I think I could have just tossed a chain over that one pretty easy. Someday you will be a bit older and won't feel like running from them.
> 
> You looked quite capable of handling it the way you did. I give you big points for expediency & skill.


I left the arts and crafts supplies at home. Rocks might of been a little tough to come by in the frozen swamp. It was up about 15 ft where you would have had to get somthing on it. Notice how the spar was sheared off. That would be a hell of a toss with a chain. I explored all other options with the gear I had and made my choice. How much time do you spend in the woods? I also get paid volume. Not hour or job or day. I've got a wife and 5 kids to take care of. If it was as easy as tossing something over it I woulda grabbed it with the forwarder and yanked it down.


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## pdqdl (Jun 7, 2015)

Not to worry. You were there, I wasn't. You got it down just fine, and I have no problem with someone choosing to run from a falling log rather than taking the time to drag it down with a machine. You may recall that I am not the guy that is always spouting maximum safety precautions at folks. Remember that I am all for taking a few risks. If we cannot accept some risk on the job, we shouldn't be doing it.

That being said, 15' is no big deal. I used to throw chains over 12' loads of lumber that were 8' wide. How do you get your chains over a big load of logs?


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## bitzer (Jun 8, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Not to worry. You were there, I wasn't. You got it down just fine, and I have no problem with someone choosing to run from a falling log rather than taking the time to drag it down with a machine. You may recall that I am not the guy that is always spouting maximum safety precautions at folks. Remember that I am all for taking a few risks. If we cannot accept some risk on the job, we shouldn't be doing it.
> 
> That being said, 15' is no big deal. I used to throw chains over 12' loads of lumber that were 8' wide. How do you get your chains over a big load of logs?



How would you have gotten the chain tight or kept it from rolling off at that angle? The truckers use straps.


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## bitzer (Jun 8, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Not to worry. You were there, I wasn't. You got it down just fine, and I have no problem with someone choosing to run from a falling log rather than taking the time to drag it down with a machine. You may recall that I am not the guy that is always spouting maximum safety precautions at folks. Remember that I am all for taking a few risks. If we cannot accept some risk on the job, we shouldn't be doing it.
> 
> That being said, 15' is no big deal. I used to throw chains over 12' loads of lumber that were 8' wide. How do you get your chains over a big load of logs?



How would you have gotten the chain tight or kept it from rolling off at that angle? The truckers use straps.


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## weedkilla (Jun 8, 2015)

I can't believe I'm weighing in....

A big D shackle on the end of the chain, put it over the running end and pull it up against the log. If you have a hook on the end of the chain just make a loop around the running end and pull it tight. 

And truckers used chain and dogs long before ratchet straps.


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## pdqdl (Jun 8, 2015)

bitzer said:


> How would you have gotten the chain tight or kept it from rolling off at that angle? The truckers use straps.



Once it is over the log, you make a loop and use it like a choker to tie onto the log. I usually have at least one chain with a slide hook, so that it is much easier to snatch logs & bushes than making a choker-loop on the end of the chain. Attach the other end to skidder and drag away. Maybe add some chains for extra length as needed.

If your hung-up tree was more vertical than horizontal, that would make it pretty tricky getting it to draw down if there were no branches or other "bumps" to hold the chain. I don't recall that situation from your video, but you were there, not me. If you say it wouldn't work, that's good for me.


----------



## pdqdl (Jun 8, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> I can't believe I'm weighing in....
> 
> A big D shackle on the end of the chain, ...



I don't think I have ever seen that. Got a pic of one?


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## Deets066 (Jun 8, 2015)

I work with rigging every day as an Ironworker, so any time I can use my knowledge of it in the woods to make something easier I do. There's a lot you can do with one choker, a shackle, and a rope. 
But I ain't tellin you guys sh!t that you don't already know


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 8, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I work with rigging every day as an Ironworker, so any time I can use my knowledge of it in the woods to make something easier I do. There's a lot you can do with one choker, a shackle, and a rope.
> But I ain't tellin you guys sh!t that you don't already know


Whats the rope for ?


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## Deets066 (Jun 8, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> I can't believe I'm weighing in....
> 
> A big D shackle on the end of the chain, put it over the running end and pull it up against the log. If you have a hook on the end of the chain just make a loop around the running end and pull it tight.
> 
> And truckers used chain and dogs long before ratchet straps.


See how far you can throw this one


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## Deets066 (Jun 8, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Whats the rope for ?


Easier to throw rope than a cable or a chain, also easier than puttin climbin gear on


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## rwoods (Jun 8, 2015)

Just a firewood hack, but if I was a production cutter I wouldn't lug a third of my seemingly necessary gear to the woods. Ron

PS As to ropes I have never seen a logger use one, but the last logged site I cut a few years ago had more than one abandoned bull rope in the brush. I don't know the history of the site so I can't say if it was cut by a career logger or a newbie. From the site conditions, it looked like one of those hit and run jobs.


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## Deets066 (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm just a firewood hack also, no I wouldn't lug riggin around with me either if I was just fallin. But I never just fall em, I always have a machine handy so the riggin stays on the machine


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## weedkilla (Jun 8, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> See how far you can throw this one
> View attachment 429471


Weirdly, I can throw heavy things better than I can throw a proper throw bag. But mostly I throw with this -


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## Deets066 (Jun 8, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Weirdly, I can throw heavy things better than I can throw a proper throw bag. But mostly I throw with this -
> View attachment 429476


That shackle weighs about 50 lbs.


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## weedkilla (Jun 8, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think I have ever seen that. Got a pic of one?


Weirdly bad timing, all the chains are packed up as we are in the middle of a shed extension, but I'll have a look and see if I can find something.


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## weedkilla (Jun 8, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> That shackle weighs about 50 lbs.


Well then I can probably throw it about 6' - lots of years moving 50lb chemical drums.


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## bitzer (Jun 8, 2015)

I didn't have a large shackle. Probably an hour round trip to get one from that job. I really have no need for one bigger than 1/2". They keep my tire chains together. The way it was broken off the stem was hooked over the back of the spar. If you watch it slowly you can see what I mean. Even if I had rigged something up the skidder might have just dug a hole. The whole episode took minutes to get on the ground and I had plenty of room to get away. The last log on both trees saved out too! I yanked one down with the grapple on the forwarder today. Damn forester didn't mark enough trees! Believe me I go the safe route first. I'm alone in the woods and there is enough to kill me without lookin for it. Either way we've given plenty ideas to anyone reading this on ways to handle a situation. Its kind of fun to have a discussion that doesn't end in name calling or other nonsense.


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## weedkilla (Jun 8, 2015)




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## weedkilla (Jun 8, 2015)

Basically if you aren't smart enough to know that getting under a snag and cutting is option C, then Darwin's law should apply. 
Pretty sure everyone commenting has done exactly the same, and been glad to get away with it.


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## svk (Jun 8, 2015)

weedkilla said:


>



Some classics in that one! I'll be watching that next week when my wife is on a girls weekend with her sister (she thinks it's a stupid movie).


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## bnmc98 (Jun 8, 2015)

I own the Silver Edition of that movie! It has that scene in Japanese with subtitles. LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 8, 2015)




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## gomoto69 (Jun 9, 2015)

Nice looking country for falling trees, i always seemed to be battling devil's club and alders, and usually steep slopes, and although i never fell in the winter, watching those guys wearing snowshoes and shoveling down thru 5' of snow to cut a low stump, and wedging trees that look like snocones, made me pretty happy to be the bucker on the landing! The only advice i have for you gypo, is just get in the habit of glancing up a few times while you're cutting, and especially when pounding wedges, might save ya one day!


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## pdqdl (Jun 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> See how far you can throw this one
> View attachment 429471



Damn. That be a big clevis. What is that, a 3" pin?


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## pdqdl (Jun 10, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Easier to throw rope than a cable or a chain, also easier than puttin climbin gear on



You missed out on the earlier part of this thread. The timber harvesters don't believe in rope, on account of it being more trouble than useful.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 10, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> You missed out on the earlier part of this thread. The timber harvesters don't believe in rope, on account of it being more trouble than useful.


Not really fair. Just a different job. Having a bunch of bulky stuff in your possession when you are taking down one yard tree that must not hit the house makes perfect sense. Carrying all that stuff, when you are in the woods falling 50 trees in a morning, simply isn't practical


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## pdqdl (Jun 10, 2015)

So! You agree with my statement then? More trouble than useful.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

It's all MustangMikes fault.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's all MustangMikes fault.View attachment 429748


Trying to cut your choker down?


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## weedkilla (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's all MustangMikes fault.View attachment 429748


Yeah!!!

I'm still looking for a square filed muffler and a double port chain for a husky 362 with a hd1080 filter bearing.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Yeah!!!
> 
> I'm still looking for a square filed muffler and a double port chain for a husky 362 with a hd1080 filter bearing.


Good luck! I'm still looking for a Husky that hasn't blown a seal.


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## weedkilla (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Good luck! I'm still looking for a Husky that hasn't blown a seal.


The husky I met said he'd just had an ice cream.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> The husky I met said he'd just had an ice cream.


The husky was just telling stories out of school.
A seal went into a bar to order a drink, the bartender asked the seal what he was having.
The seal said, "Anything but a Canadian Club."


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## Deets066 (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's all MustangMikes fault.View attachment 429748


Spring board?


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## Deets066 (Jun 10, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Damn. That be a big clevis. What is that, a 3" pin?


35 ton cap.


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## bitzer (Jun 10, 2015)

I own a rope. Its never seen the woods though. For the record I did mention several times I had exhausted all possibilities before working under that snag. You boys felt the need to educate me. I've rigged and pulled a couple trees down. I started out fence/lot clearing. We pushed or pulled a lot. Its just fun to see you guys run with it. Its too bad you guys aren't there to hold my hand every day.


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## olyman (Jun 10, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I own a rope. Its never seen the woods though. For the record I did mention several times I had exhausted all possibilities before working under that snag. You boys felt the need to educate me. I've rigged and pulled a couple trees down. I started out fence/lot clearing. We pushed or pulled a lot. Its just fun to see you guys run with it. Its too bad you guys aren't there to hold my hand every day.


 are you a BA alter ego???


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## Bwildered (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's all MustangMikes fault.View attachment 429748


It looks like a pinched saw to me & a very close fence line. Make sure the cable is a least twice as long as the tree is high to avoid anymore parting of the hair.
Thansk


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## MustangMike (Jun 10, 2015)

Guilty as charged, what can I say!!! Actually, surprised this thing is still going.


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## Gologit (Jun 10, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> It looks like a pinched saw to me & a very close fence line. Make sure the cable is a least twice as long as the tree is high to avoid anymore parting of the hair.
> Thansk


 LOL...what if you had a two hundred foot tree? Hardly anybody carries that much rigging.
As an alternative, run a line from the tree to a snatch block, rig the snatch block so you pull at 90 degrees to the direction of fall. Uses less rigging and is much safer.


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## Gologit (Jun 10, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I own a rope. Its never seen the woods though. For the record I did mention several times I had exhausted all possibilities before working under that snag. You boys felt the need to educate me. I've rigged and pulled a couple trees down. I started out fence/lot clearing. We pushed or pulled a lot. Its just fun to see you guys run with it. Its too bad you guys aren't there to hold my hand every day.



The ankle biters are always around. Most of them couldn't do what you do. They can sure tell you how to do it, though.


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## olyman (Jun 10, 2015)

Gologit said:


> The ankle biters are always around. Most of them couldn't do what you do. They can sure tell you how to do it, though.


 kinda like you tell everyone,,how to do everything,,as you've done it all????????????????????


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## MustangMike (Jun 10, 2015)

I'm getting a little confused, can someone please tell me who are the Hatfields and who are the McCoys?????


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 10, 2015)

What the hell did you start here Mike


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## Moparmyway (Jun 10, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I'm getting a little confused, can someone please tell me who are the Hatfields and who are the McCoys?????


You would have to spend a week in the logging forum to get a rough idea of who is on whos side, and who threw who under the bus, as well as which ones like to hit below the belt. Its a mess to say the least and I dont think anyone has been left unbruised. If you really like the oil thread, you would love the logging forum. I took a few minutes to look it over, and then just walked away without posting a single word


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## Gologit (Jun 10, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You would have to spend a week in the logging forum to get a rough idea of who is on whos side, and who threw who under the bus, as well as which ones like to hit below the belt. Its a mess to say the least and I dont think anyone has been left unbruised. If you really like the oil thread, you would love the logging forum. I took a few minutes to look it over, and then just walked away without posting a single word



Good plan. There are very few real loggers and foresters left in the F&L forum. Most of us have moved on to a better place.
There's too many people there now who just want to cause trouble. Too many wannabes, winos, dinos, and dingbats. And those pesky little ankle biters...can't forget them.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

olyman said:


> kinda like you tell everyone,,how to do everything,,as you've done it all????????????????????


Every dog has his day.
Hahaha


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

olyman said:


> are you a BA alter ego???


Oly, Bitzer is ok, it's Bob's turn on the mattress. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 10, 2015)

The pro logger logging along my road decided to use my power lines for a choker cable  we got no juice at home now .


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I'm getting a little confused, can someone please tell me who are the Hatfields and who are the McCoys?????


It's the PNW Tards vs the Flatland Losers. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> The pro logger logging along my road decided to use my power lines for a choker cable  we got no juice at home now .


Well.. Get out there Brian and tell them how it's done. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Well.. Get out there Brian and tell them how it's done. Lol


there is something about ,power lines ,structures,and pickups that have a magnetic pull with trees sometimes ........I will say my rookie stumps are prettier than the ones these pro guys leave ,but they are much faster than i am ....


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> The pro logger logging along my road decided to use my power lines for a choker cable  we got no juice at home now .


I've seen that pro logger logging before.
Doesn't lumberjack dude call himself ,"Loggin's and Loggin's Logging and Lumber Limited?


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 10, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I've seen that pro logger logging before.
> Doesn't lumberjack dude call himself ,"Loggin's and Loggin's Logging and Lumber Limited?


How many logs could a logger log if a logger could log logs .........?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 10, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> How many logs could a logger log if a logger could log logs .........?


Probably as many as Frank's Planks.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 10, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I'm getting a little confused, can someone please tell me who are the Hatfields and who are the McCoys?????


if you step over all the BS, you can learn alot.


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## bitzer (Jun 10, 2015)

olyman said:


> are you a BA alter ego???


How did you guess. I created this ego 6 years ago jut lying in wait for the right time to pounce. I tried to leave the thread cordially and then pdq opened his damn mouth again. I've actually contributed and learned a lot on this site. Every time I see you post something its negative. I put those videos up for two reasons: one was to show coaster that not all eastern cutters are slow and that bore cutting is not necessary in typical situations. The second reason was that you commented that gypo is in his pics and videos and its not a hazy stump shot in the distance. So I put them up. I explained myself when I posted those videos why I did what I did. Then I was told how I should have done it and then I explained myself again. Still I got more blowback, fine I will play along. It was 10 below zero too that day for the record. All that screwin with trying to rig stuff would have been a cold pain in the ass waste of time. Instead I cut it up and let it go and still saved all the logs in just a few minutes. I didn't get this far in logging by being an idiot. In the past 4 years I have seen 5 crews come and go. They couldn't make it for one reason or another. Break downs they couldn't fix, guys gettin hurt. I'm still here and I make money and make the mill happy. I'm not just explaining myself to you here. Its to everyone reading this who probably thinks I'm a jackass now. I could really give a damn, but I don't want to be taken for a fool either.


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## bitzer (Jun 10, 2015)

Gologit said:


> The ankle biters are always around. Most of them couldn't do what you do. They can sure tell you how to do it, though.


Yeah I know. I appreciate it Bob.


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## bitzer (Jun 10, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You would have to spend a week in the logging forum to get a rough idea of who is on whos side, and who threw who under the bus, as well as which ones like to hit below the belt. Its a mess to say the least and I dont think anyone has been left unbruised. If you really like the oil thread, you would love the logging forum. I took a few minutes to look it over, and then just walked away without posting a single word


How do you think it got that way?


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## rwoods (Jun 10, 2015)

bitzer, anyone who has followed your posts and concludes that you are a jackass probably has more issues than AS can resolve. 

You know I am not a logger nor learned in the arts of the same or those of tree service but even so I am still taken back by the armchair advice of those you would think would know the demands of the two trades are dissimilar.

Keep up the good work and posts.

Ron


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## Gologit (Jun 10, 2015)

rwoods said:


> bitzer, anyone who has followed your posts and concludes that you are a jackass probably has more issues than AS can resolve.
> 
> You know I am not a logger nor learned in the arts of the same or those of tree service but even so I am still taken back by the armchair advice of those you would think would know the demands of the two trades are dissimilar.
> 
> ...


 Well said.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 10, 2015)

everyones a timber faller...........

your fine bitz...........that or we are all jerks.........so be it


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## weedkilla (Jun 10, 2015)

What if.......

We are all grown ups, we've all cut down a tree or two, most of those commenting have done so professionally, we've all done enough dumb things to be glad to be alive, and we all know that there are more ways to kill a cat than choking it with cream, and we all know that the only one who really knows is the bloke standing at the stump with the saw. 

So then it means we are just having a chin wag about different ways to kill the cat, nobody is telling anyone how to do anything, just telling tales of different ways they've made it work in similar situations? 

Now, when that happens we all know that somebody will say something that makes you think "no way in hell does that apply to me!", but so what? It might be a help to someone else. 

None of this applies to Ol' mate sloping back cuts. That ****'s just wrong.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 10, 2015)

I enjoy your posts bitzer.

And fwiw I would probably have cut the thing just like you did instead of farting around for half an hour. Looked safe enough to me.


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## Gologit (Jun 10, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I enjoy your posts bitzer.
> 
> And fwiw I would probably have cut the thing just like you did instead of farting around for half an hour. Looked safe enough to me.



Same here. It's not the best thing in the world or the safest either but there are times when it has to be done. I've done it but there wasn't any other choice. 
Bitzer was there, we weren't. He didn't endanger anybody but himself and he really didn't endanger himself very much.
Production fallers are in a different boat than weekend warriors. Loggers need to get as much wood on the ground as they safely can. All day long. Every day. 
A firewood cutter can leave a tree or spend hours rigging up all kinds of fancy crap to make it do what he wants. Rigging is fine but sometimes guys use it as a crutch and they place way too much faith in things that they really don't have a good understanding of.
Where I cut we can usually cripple up a couple of trees and use another to drive them with. In short and sparse timber like Bitzer cuts that isn't always an option.
And on the subject of ropes? Don't trust them. Ever.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 10, 2015)

These guys had a rope


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## bnmc98 (Jun 10, 2015)

So did these guys


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## Deets066 (Jun 10, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> So did these guys



Rope won't save ya if your ignorant


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## Deets066 (Jun 10, 2015)

Fwiw I never use ropes to pull anything, I use 1/2" steel cable and only once in a great while will I have to pull anything. But sometimes it's necessary for us ankle biters


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 10, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> What if.......
> 
> We are all grown ups, we've all cut down a tree or two, most of those commenting have done so professionally, we've all done enough dumb things to be glad to be alive, and we all know that there are more ways to kill a cat than choking it with cream, and we all know that the only one who really knows is the bloke standing at the stump with the saw.
> 
> ...


fantasy i'm afraid


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## MustangMike (Jun 10, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> if you step over all the BS, you can learn alot.



Actually the opposite, I think I learned a lot, then there was a lot of BS!

You guys are making me look pretty good! I may only be a part timer, but in 40 years I've never damaged a structure, taken down power lines, or let a tree fall the wrong way on a busy road. Part of it is just not getting in over your head, and part of it is the opposite of what the production the guys in the forest need to do. When working in residential neighborhoods you have to be overly cautious. I've often tied ropes that I did not need, but better to be safe than sorry, and I've seen wind gusts move a lot of trees in ways you did not want them to go.

Watching those mistakes really reminds you what not to do! 

The problem was not that they were using rope, the problem was they did not know how to use it.

That said I keep learning new things on this site, and I appreciate it.


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## MustangMike (Jun 10, 2015)

I like using my Maasdam Rope Puller because it allows me to tension the rope properly. That rope hooked up to the PU was not tight, and if you try to tighten it by moving the truck it is too easy to break it (and then you are really in trouble).

No matter what equipment you use, you have to know how to use your equipment!


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## bnmc98 (Jun 10, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Watching those mistakes really reminds you what not to do!
> 
> The problem was not that they were using rope, the problem was they did not know how to use it.
> 
> That said I keep learning new things on this site, and I appreciate it.



I'm gonna take a stab at it and say that although they did not knowing how to use a rope, they *did* know how to cut their holding wood off.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 10, 2015)

I think the wheels were spinning on that pick up in the feeble attempt to pull it over after the guy broke and cut his holding wood.


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 10, 2015)

I enjoyed watching bitzer's videos. Had to put on my goggles to watch the first one cause of all the chips flying at my screen, though.


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## MustangMike (Jun 10, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I'm gonna take a stab at it and say that although they did not knowing how to use a rope, they *did* know how to cut their holding wood off.



If the rope were tensioned properly, the tree should have come over before the hinge failed, but I agree with your statement, they screwed that up!

The hing was also probably improperly thinner on the side away from the house, but the video does not show it.

I've tied ropes at 90 degrees that I did not need several times. I'll bet they wish they had done one!


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## MustangMike (Jun 10, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> I think the wheels were spinning on that pick up in the feeble attempt to pull it over after the guy broke and cut his holding wood.



If the truck did not have posi or 4wd, one wheel spinning on the grass does not pull much! They should have hooked that rope up to one of the trees on the side of the truck, with a come along. The angle would have been better for keeping the tree away from the house.

And as 98 says, they likely screwed up that hinge. The wedge they were driving may have even helped to pop it.


----------



## svk (Jun 10, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> You would have to spend a week in the logging forum to get a rough idea of who is on whos side, and who threw who under the bus, as well as which ones like to hit below the belt. Its a mess to say the least and I dont think anyone has been left unbruised. If you really like the oil thread, you would love the logging forum. I took a few minutes to look it over, and then just walked away without posting a single word


Sums it up pretty well!

Speaking of friendly....there haven't been any heated discussions on splitting axes for a couple of months. Guess the last few haters must have caved and bought Fiskars, eh @MustangMike


----------



## Bwildered (Jun 10, 2015)

Gologit said:


> LOL...what if you had a two hundred foot tree? Hardly anybody carries that much rigging.
> As an alternative, run a line from the tree to a snatch block, rig the snatch block so you pull at 90 degrees to the direction of fall. Uses less rigging and is much safer.


our guidelines for pulling trees over with ropes or cable are actually 2.5 X the tree length, which is the same distance between fallers working together, one tree can collect another & then that one can throw something aways, I have also had up to 70 knot gusts come out of the blue at work some days so anywhere within 2 or so tree lengths can be swatted, those same gusts are what get low flying planes & copters, they just get driven into the ground. Fortunately I have 90 meters of cable on my drum so it's easy for me in that respect, normally I would use the blade though because it's just quicker.
Thansk


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## Moparmyway (Jun 11, 2015)

bitzer said:


> How do you think it got that way?


I am sure it started because of different perspectives, which were taken too seriousely, and then other dudes weighed in, causing tension and anger, resulting in retalitory posts, then the insults began flying, some dudes started crying and others bathed in the resulting chaos ...................... WAIT ................ were you asking about the logging forum or the oil thread ?????? 

Eh, dont bother answering that question bitzer, its the same for both !! 

FWIW bitzer, I appreciate your posts and perspective from years of work in the field, haters are gunna hate, and there aint nuthin you or I can do about that !!


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## olyman (Jun 11, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> If the truck did not have posi or 4wd, one wheel spinning on the grass does not pull much! They should have hooked that rope up to one of the trees on the side of the truck, with a come along. The angle would have been better for keeping the tree away from the house.
> 
> And as 98 says, they likely screwed up that hinge. The wedge they were driving may have even helped to pop it.


 ive pulled over a FEW, since I started cutting for firewood..have always owned 4x4's..but you NEVER, pull from the back of the truck, ALWAYS the front. the tree is much less likely to lift the front end off of the ground..........maybe some aren't real articulate backing up, just make sure cable is long enough for truck not being under when she comes over.....


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## Moparmyway (Jun 11, 2015)

olyman said:


> ive pulled over a FEW, since I started cutting for firewood..have always owned 4x4's..but you NEVER, pull from the back of the truck, ALWAYS the front. the tree is much less likely to lift the front end off of the ground..........maybe some aren't real articulate backing up, just make sure cable is long enough for truck not being under when she comes over.....


Very well said !!
I will just clarify; Attaching a rope or cable to the rear of the truck, then attaching the other side up high in the tree will allways result in spinning tires. As you pull, the rear lifts, unloading the rear tires. Attaching to the front of a truck allows the "lift" to work for you, in that* IF* the front does unload or lift, more weight will be transferred to the rear, giving more traction................ wet/mud/snow conditions call for snatch blocks and come-alongs or winches with tied off vehicles.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 11, 2015)

bitzer said:


> How do you think it got that way?


The F&L forum has his historically been about the most boring place on AS. Exciting "hollaback girl" threads, like the ones that dominate the chainsaw forum were non-existent. Allegedly (and since I find the wood that comes from trees to be a nuisance, and cannot comprehend why people would go out of their way to acquire and save the stuff, I do not spend much time in the firewood forum) one "SlowP" trolls the firewood guys and hurts their feelings. Oly and the spider apparently thought trolling the **** out of the F&L forum was the appropriate response, and found kindred spirits in gypo and westcoast. I personally have found all the bickering to be a nice change from the typical "got six loads out today" (not talking about poop, which is also funny), "my skidder needs new tires", "fire can be dangerous", and "this is the wood I'm in currently" posts. If the firewood guys put Slowp on ignore, and the logging guys put the aforementioned four horsemen of the apocalypse on ignore, the chainsaw forum would go back to being the only "Jerry Springer" place on here (notwithstanding the political forum "Michigan Militia vs whole foods" insanity). Carry on as you were.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

I never really minded Slowp's preemptive strikes on the woodticks. It was good entertainment and the responses are quite hilarious.
Golickit is ruining [email protected] L With his constant whining and his self deluded idea that he's the "bull of the woods".


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## Big_Wood (Jun 11, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> The F&L forum has his historically been about the most boring place on AS. Exciting "hollaback girl" threads, like the ones that dominate the chainsaw forum were non-existent. Allegedly (and since I find the wood that comes from trees to be a nuisance, and cannot comprehend why people would go out of their way to acquire and save the stuff, I do not spend much time in the firewood forum) one "SlowP" trolls the firewood guys and hurts their feelings. Oly and the spider apparently thought trolling the **** out of the F&L forum was the appropriate response, and found kindred spirits in gypo and westcoast. I personally have found all the bickering to be a nice change from the typical "got six loads out today" (not talking about poop, which is also funny), "my skidder needs new tires", "fire can be dangerous", and "this is the wood I'm in currently" posts. If the firewood guys put Slowp on ignore, and the logging guys put the aforementioned four horsemen of the apocalypse on ignore, the chainsaw forum would go back to being the only "Jerry Springer" place on here (notwithstanding the political forum "Michigan Militia vs whole foods" insanity). Carry on as you were.



LOL, i swear i only made like 4 posts. guess it was enough to be affiliated with the 4 horseman though aye?


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## olyman (Jun 11, 2015)

I do not spend much time in the firewood forum) one "SlowP" trolls the firewood guys and hurts their feelings. .[/QUOTE]
sure you have the chain of events correct?? me thinks your leaving a important point out.. the one where she went back to f&l and bragged about it...that's called trolling, which she has never been hit for...


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## MustangMike (Jun 11, 2015)

olyman said:


> ive pulled over a FEW, since I started cutting for firewood..have always owned 4x4's..but you NEVER, pull from the back of the truck, ALWAYS the front. the tree is much less likely to lift the front end off of the ground..........maybe some aren't real articulate backing up, just make sure cable is long enough for truck not being under when she comes over.....



Real good points, makes sense. In addition to more wt in front, & 4wd, you will also be watching what the F*** is going on, another plus!

The only part that scares me about using a vehicle to pull the rope is that it often has the ability to break the rope, which you do not want to happen!


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## olyman (Jun 11, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Real good points, makes sense. In addition to more wt in front, & 4wd, you will also be watching what the F*** is going on, another plus!
> 
> The only part that scares me about using a vehicle to pull the rope is that it often has the ability to break the rope, which you do not want to happen!


ive NEVER used a old style rope to pull a tree over..ive used a 3 in snatch strap, along with a few high tensile chains.. but acquired a 100 foot two inch high fiber nylon rope some years back,,at a garage sale, for.......................................................20 clams!!!! in bag, like new.. couldn't tell it had ever been used...mighty handy. and it has eye ends on it!!...I now have two 3/8 steel cables, that I had eye ends put on,,by a rigging co in d moines ia..........that's really handy!!!!! and yes,,i did snap the one.......tree was being obstinent..........


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## Moparmyway (Jun 11, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> The only part that scares me about using a vehicle to pull the rope is that it often has the ability to break the rope, which you do not want to happen!


Having the wisdom to know the ropes limits helps here.
For example, a smaller 15" DBH tree can probably be roped no problem ............... however, tying a rope to a 30" DBH tree is a recipe for disaster


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## MustangMike (Jun 11, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Having the wisdom to know the ropes limits helps here.
> For example, a smaller 15" DBH tree can probably be roped no problem ............... however, tying a rope to a 30" DBH tree is a recipe for disaster



I've roped larger trees w/o a problem, but you have to consider everything. Does the tree have a lean, how high up is your rope, etc, etc. You have to be able to understand the total package.

I also use premium quality rope that is 3X stronger than what you get at HD, and with the Maasdan Rope Puller I can keep it near it's limit. There are very few trees that will not be influenced by close to 1500 lbs of pull fairly high up on them.

The only time I had a rope fail is when I first started out and was using cheap rope. Luckily, the tree did not fall, and I was able to re-connect it, but I never made that mistake again. Watching a tree wobble back & forth on it's hinge is not a pleasant experience!


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## olyman (Jun 11, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Having the wisdom to know the ropes limits helps here.
> For example, a smaller 15" DBH tree can probably be roped no problem ............... however, tying a rope to a 30" DBH tree is a recipe for disaster


 as mm said,,depends on rope size quite a bit....................and the knowledge of the driver of said vehicle.


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## svk (Jun 11, 2015)

If pulling is required I use chain and/or straps that are strong enough to hang the entire tree without breaking. If I have a larger tree and/or one that could go in another direction I won't hesitate to use two. Some people really have no clue how weak hardware store ropes are. You see what some people tie their ATV's down with on the highway and shake your head. I saw what happened to a trailered ATV in a car accident and it broke four 1500# straps. 

Additionally, people also don't understand the difference between pulling with level force versus trying to "snap" the tree in the desired direction as the latter will wreak havoc on ropes. As Mike referenced if you use a hand puller you will usually run out of arm strength long before you are going to break the properly sized rope/cable.


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## Moparmyway (Jun 11, 2015)

olyman said:


> as mm said,,depends on rope size quite a bit....................


Oly, if I have a 30" DBH tree that needs a line, its gunna be my 5/8 stranded cable (20 tons) ................. I'd use the rope to pull the cable up though


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## MustangMike (Jun 11, 2015)

As SVK says, momentum is critical, which is why proper tension is also critical. If the tree starts going the wrong way, not much is going to stop it. A properly tensioned rope or cable will not allow that to happen. It is not just arm strength, when you tighten it by hand, you have a good idea how tight it is (especially after you get some experience with it). 

Comparing rope to cable: Cable is obviously stronger, but rope has a little more stretch, and will give you a little more pull. Rope is also lighter and more flexible. I can not see myself carrying around, and rolling up, a 120' cable, and I've used rope in places where you will not easily get any cable or heavy equipment.

As I've previously stated, part of it is knowing how to use, and the limits of, your equipment, and rope can be a very effective tool, especially for the guy w/o a lot of heavy equipment. That does not mean that cable would not be better is some situations, but sometimes it is just not an option. I think some of you under estimate what you can do with a good rope.


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## Moparmyway (Jun 11, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I think some of you under estimate what you can do with a good rope.


I can appreciate that Mike, but when I am close to cars, houses, roads, other peoples properties, etc ................ Lugging, rigging, rolling up, and putting away the cable is the least of my concerns


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 11, 2015)

Just make a deep face cut, get the bucket on the loader as high as you can, apply pressure, make your back cut, have the loader driver watch the top start to move, push as the top starts moving, and over she goes. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.


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## svk (Jun 11, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> I can appreciate that Mike, but when I am close to cars, houses, roads, other peoples properties, etc ................ Lugging, rigging, rolling up, and putting away the cable is the least of my concerns


And if you aren't close to any of those directional felling is not nearly as important. Or is it "falling"


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## Moparmyway (Jun 11, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Just make a deep face cut, get the bucket on the loader as high as you can, apply pressure, make your back cut, have the loader driver watch the top start to move, push as the top starts moving, and over she goes. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.


I'll send you my addy ................ you send me your loader


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## blsnelling (Jun 11, 2015)

I have a 150', 3/4" nylon rope with braided loops on both ends. I have no concerns of my pickup breaking it. I've even had a farm tractor spin its tires pulling on it. I bought it specifically for pulling trees.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Just make a deep face cut, get the bucket on the loader as high as you can, apply pressure, make your back cut, have the loader driver watch the top start to move, push as the top starts moving, and over she goes. Easy peezy lemon squeezy.


Yes, thats the safest and quickest when doing city trees.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 11, 2015)

I want your traktah


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## olyman (Jun 11, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Oly, if I have a 30" DBH tree that needs a line, its gunna be my 5/8 stranded cable (20 tons) ................. I'd use the rope to pull the cable up though


 zookay,,but I took a 42 dbh white oak down, two years ago, that had HUGE branches coming off of the sides.. I took off what ones I could reach,,then went to take it down...I had the 3/8 cable,,hooked to the front of the 96 dsl,,and a friend of mine was hooked to my rear bumper, with the front of his truck, for mor pull power...I cut it to the hinge, got in my truck, and we both pull on it...........just inside my cut,,was rot on the north side of the tree, which I couldn't see...as we pulled it over,,and I knew I was close to breaking the cable, she started to come over, but not straight west as per my cut. the roach started to lean north,,right next to his cornfield...................grrrrrrrr. we just kept pulling it, and I counted 12 stalks I mushed....farmer said, well done, I thought more would get hit!!! yes, I would have rather had a 1/2 cable,,,but don't have one,,and I should have brought my 2 inch nylon...oh well.....


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## MustangMike (Jun 11, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> I can appreciate that Mike, but when I am close to cars, houses, roads, other peoples properties, etc ................ Lugging, rigging, rolling up, and putting away the cable is the least of my concerns




I've put a 2nd rope on, sometimes at a different angle, for the same reason. Never really needed it, but it made me feel better.


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## bitzer (Jun 11, 2015)

Thank you gentleman for the compliments and explainations!

Oly if you have a Mills fleet farm ( i think they have one or two in iowa) they carry 1/2" cable for a buck a foot. 
I agreed to cut a 4ft cottonwood for a farmer so that I could use his lane for our trucks. When I showed up he had 3/8ths cable hooked up to tree and tractor. I thought oh boy. The tree was way dead, rotten and leaning at his house. I had about 4" of wood on either side. We got er, but it was a little hairy. I've got a four and a half foot ash to do for the county one of these days. I told them I will rig it otherwise I won't do it.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

Everyone here has no clue how to get a tree on the ground properly! Lol.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Everyone here has no clue how to get a tree on the ground properly! Lol.View attachment 430020


Why is the ladder not up against the tree ?


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## olyman (Jun 11, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Thank you gentleman for the compliments and explainations!
> 
> Oly if you have a Mills fleet farm ( i think they have one or two in iowa) they carry 1/2" cable for a buck a foot.
> I agreed to cut a 4ft cottonwood for a farmer so that I could use his lane for our trucks. When I showed up he had 3/8ths cable hooked up to tree and tractor. I thought oh boy. The tree was way dead, rotten and leaning at his house. I had about 4" of wood on either side. We got er, but it was a little hairy. I've got a four and a half foot ash to do for the county one of these days. I told them I will rig it otherwise I won't do it.


 china cable??? the place I had put eyes on the end of my 3/8,, in d moines iowa,,has cable damn reasonable priced,,and tell you exactly what it will pull..wayyyy good people....I may check, just for g&g,,aint much will stop my 2 inch 100 foot nylon rope. less your speaking of trains and crawlers...........


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## rwoods (Jun 11, 2015)

For a little perspective for the lesser experienced reader.

Relative breaking strengths:

Wire rope: 3/8 - 14,400; 1/2 - 34,700; 5/8 - 53,900
Twisted nylon: 1" - 22,000; 2" - 92,000

Bear in mind that in addition to abrasive losses, nylon also deteriorates in sunlight. 

Many pros and cons to each, including 30%+ stretch vs limited stretch. There is a place and purpose for each and some overlap but neither should be considered an all round substitute for the other. Lots of variation in rope characteristics to be considered as well. Same for straps - some are stretchy some aren't. Some strong and some not. 

Ron


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## huskihl (Jun 11, 2015)

Yeah a 2" rope I believe is commonly used to tie up freighters in the great lakes. 1" ropes for the same purpose have a rated strength of around 15k lb iirc. Not gonna break that either. Redimix trucks (75,000 lbs loaded) use 1-1/2" ropes locally to tie to a dozer to get in or out of less than perfect job sites. 
Keep that 2"er dry and you're not gonna tie anything to it that'll break it


olyman said:


> china cable??? the place I had put eyes on the end of my 3/8,, in d moines iowa,,has cable damn reasonable priced,,and tell you exactly what it will pull..wayyyy good people....I may check, just for g&g,,aint much will stop my 2 inch 100 foot nylon rope. less your speaking of trains and crawlers...........


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## huskihl (Jun 11, 2015)

rwoods said:


> For a little perspective for the lesser experienced reader.
> 
> Relative breaking strengths:
> 
> ...


Beat me to it. Great info


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Why is the ladder not up against the tree ?


I think because they were concerned about safety I guess.


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## MustangMike (Jun 11, 2015)

The 1/2" rope I use with the rope puller has a tensile strength of 5,800 lbs. When I can't find a tree to tie it to, I often tie it to my Ford Escape, which is only 3,600 lbs, so I guess it is strong enough!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

Are these stumps ok?


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## huskihl (Jun 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 430088
> Are these stumps ok?


It's like oil. 



Apparently they're ok


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## pdqdl (Jun 11, 2015)

bitzer said:


> How do you think it got that way?



A general lack of respect is usually what causes fights. Name calling and passing out insults is a sure recipe for trouble.


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## gomoto69 (Jun 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Everyone here has no clue how to get a tree on the ground properly! Lol.
> 
> View attachment 430020


This tree is a perfect candidate for a bore cut, everything stays put till you cut out through the backside then it just pops right off, no barberchair or pulled wood!


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## pioneerguy600 (Jun 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 430088
> Are these stumps ok?




Pffffttt!..pine cutters!!


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## huskihl (Jun 11, 2015)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Pffffttt!..pine cutters!!


Easy there pg. Them there's fightin words lol


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## Big_Wood (Jun 11, 2015)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Pffffttt!..pine cutters!!



pine or hickory, what difference does it make when your tree's are 16"? what's the average size you see everyday? and don't tell me it's 30"+ . i would say it definitely looks like one of bobs stumps. where do you keep getting all pics of bobs stumps john?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

You are so right, I was called a wino by the whino himself. Lol


pdqdl said:


> A general lack of respect is usually what causes fights. Name calling and passing out insults is a sure recipe for trouble.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> pine or hickory, what difference does it make when your tree's are 16"? what's the average size you see everyday? and don't tell me it's 30"+ . i would say it definitely looks like one of bobs stumps. where do you keep getting all pics of bobs stumps john?


I found them in the Redwoods!
Hahaha


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## Big_Wood (Jun 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I found them in the Redwoods!
> Hahaha



LMAO, i was driving back from port alberni today and saw an old cut block off the side of the road. all the stumps looked like they were bullbucker bobs  did you know john, i stumbled across a couple youtube channels today. PNW professionals working on level ground right next to a road in chaps! professionals cutters in chaps! i felt like a was watching a documentary of a firewood hack. one gigantic ass on the female character whoever she is


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

Ya, golickits youtube channel is rather.... Underwelming.
Hahaha


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## Big_Wood (Jun 11, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Ya, golickits youtube channel is rather.... Underwelming.
> Hahaha



how did you know it was golickits? yes it is quite weekend warrior like!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 11, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> how did you know it was golickits? yes it is quite weekend warrior like!


It was the longgg pointed nose and the saddlebag thighs that were the giveaway. Lol


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## pdqdl (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Ya, golickits youtube channel is rather.... Underwelming.
> Hahaha



Link?


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## MustangMike (Jun 12, 2015)

My thread, and I don't even know what the H*** they R talkin about!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> My thread, and I don't even know what the H*** they R talkin about!


We are talking about felon trees. Lol


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> My thread, and I don't even know what the H*** they R talkin about!



something's gotta give sooner or later mike


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> We are talking about felon trees. LolView attachment 430131



did anyone else notice that bob left absolutely no holding wood on that tree? he went deep on the top cut of his undercut leaving just a little bit of splinter wood holding that sucker on the stump. then did a sloping back cut which i assume he might think it would stop it from going in the wrong direction on him? i would have been interested to watch bob cut up that tree  i'll go see if his channel has that falling vid on there.


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## MustangMike (Jun 12, 2015)

That's OK, I'm scheduled to do a little cutting tomorrow, so all is good. Nothing big or challenging, but I'll get out in the fresh air and hear the saw run, so it will make my day. Will be better than cutting the lawn and weeding the garden like I did today!

Although I did go to see my 8 year old Grandson play at a T Ball game, so it finished well!


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## MustangMike (Jun 12, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> did anyone else notice that bob left absolutely no holding wood on that tree? he went deep on the top cut of his undercut leaving just a little bit of splinter wood holding that sucker on the stump. then did a sloping back cut which i assume he might think it would stop it from going in the wrong direction on him? i would have been interested to watch bob cut up that tree  i'll go see if his channel has that falling vid on there.



I was going to say, that ain't my tree!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

I think that stump is known as the reverse humbolt cut whereby you can change your mind at any time since the intentional dutcham acts as another facecut ,thus expeediating the whole production thing.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I think that stump is known as the reverse humbolt cut whereby you can change your mind at any time since the intentional dutcham acts as another facecut ,thus expeediating the whole production thing.



intentional dutchman straight across LOL


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

where's bob guys? i thought for sure he would have stopped by to say hi by now. it's not even 10:30. if he's a real logger he's just starting his second case! he might have gotten into the JD early though i guess. maybe he has us on ignore?


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> Link?



There is no link. For some reason Gypo likes to assert that experience is measured in quantity of pictures.

The fact that Gologit is hounded so much by a couple of characters is pretty good evidence that at some point he called them out on something. I don't know and don't really care but the whining gets old. It makes one question their credibility after awhile.

Ron

*I stand corrected see Gypo post for a link. *


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## bnmc98 (Jun 12, 2015)

rwoods said:


> I don't know and don't really care but the whining gets old. It makes one question their credibility after awhile.
> 
> Ron



Credibility or Character.

People who run their mouth about others have lost both in my opinion.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

rwoods said:


> There is no link. For some reason Gypo likes to assert that experience is measured in quantity of pictures.
> 
> The fact that Gologit is hounded so much by a couple of characters is pretty good evidence that at some point he called them out on something. I don't know and don't really care but the whining gets old. It makes one question their credibility after awhile.
> 
> Ron


Isnt that what this forum is all about? Real people showing real pictures , or bullchiters being bullchiters?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Credibility or Character.
> 
> People who run their mouth about others have lost both in my opinion.


Leave me alone, you big bully! Lol
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=UUe0Ox4iTaZ1vI3XvCS9R-VA


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

I just woke up off a whiskey trip. What happened in here? LOL


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Isnt that what this forum is all about? Real people showing real pictures , or bullchiters being bullchiters?



Those are two non exclusive important components, but so are levity, comradarty, instruction and information.

Without a proper introduction every now and then, it is hard for latecomers to distinguish fact from fiction. Left to form our own conclusions, we are often wrong ... at least I am.

Now let's see some more Yukon pictures.

Ron


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 12, 2015)

Slowp has a channel too. She always posted a video i've always wondered about. I'm not a logger of course but why did it take these guys 5 minutes to wedge over this little tree?

Can someone explain?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> I just woke up off a whiskey trip. What happened in here? LOL


Two Canadian culls were not being nice to a Californian cull.
Hows the whiskey rash? Lol


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo, I see I am behind times as usual. Should you be credited with these videos? 

Previously, I had only seen one. You could tell simply by the way he approached the tree and cut that Bob had been around awhile which is one of many reasons why the assertions that he doesn't know what he is talking about are ridiculous.

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Now let's see some more Yukon pictures.
> 
> Ron


Sure, no problem Ron. Im driving to Whitehorse today so Ill take some pics.
Heres one of the sill logs for a house, cut with a 2100. Vise grips as a helpers handle.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Two Canadian culls were not being nice to a Californian cull.
> Hows the whiskey rash? Lol



i'm up ain't i LOL up early too it seems.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Slowp has a channel too. She always posted a video i've always wondered about. I'm not a logger of course but why did it take these guys 5 minutes to wedge over this little tree?
> 
> Can someone explain?




my questions exactly. why in the hell are 2 guys needed to do a 1 man job and then take twice as long to do said job. then the one guy walks in front of the cut up tree a few times. those 2 would not be working with me. nice clean ground too. sounds like the camera woman is just learning too LOL the only possible explanation to me is that they are wannabe loggers. hard to take a faller wearing chaps seriously. screams weekend warrior but then maybe that's just the way it is in the redwoods!


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## bitzer (Jun 12, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Slowp has a channel too. She always posted a video i've always wondered about. I'm not a logger of course but why did it take these guys 5 minutes to wedge over this little tree?
> 
> Can someone explain?



They were walking the tree around. It was leaning towards the road I believe. Sawing lean into it. Every kerf is 3/8" wood gone. The tree sits forward that much. Kind of like the opposite of wedging. 

Coaster- I've used a full faced dutch on several occasions. You need to gut the heartwood and have her cut up tight. Its great for when you need the butt free in a hurry.


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

Helper handle? I though you were a one man show, Gypo. Looking forward to the picture show. Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Slowp has a channel too. She always posted a video i've always wondered about. I'm not a logger of course but why did it take these guys 5 minutes to wedge over this little tree?
> 
> Can someone explain?



If you wanna be a pro, ya gotta go slow. Lol
What got me is they looked up a hundred times, but lumberjack dude never backed off from the stump when the tree went over.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Helper handle? I though you were a one man show, Gypo. Looking forward to the picture show. Ron


Lol, I only peeled the logs. I wasnt there to watch the cut, but will try to be there for the next cut.


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

Chris, if I recall correctly Slowp explained that the older fellow was giving some instruction to the younger guy. Though I am one of the older guys, I frequent AS for the instruction as I have a lot to learn and a lot to lose if I get it wrong. Many of the younger guys have more cutting knowledge and experience than me. Would be great to have one stand beside and coach me through some of the trees I cut from time to time. I don't have that privilege which is one of the reasons I get annoyed by the personal attacks on those willing to give some instruction here.

Gypo apparently likes a little fun which I enjoy too - I just can't always tell when it is. He puts up well with my ignorance and occasional chastisement.

Ron


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

bitzer said:


> They were walking the tree around. It was leaning towards the road I believe. Sawing lean into it. Every kerf is 3/8" wood gone. The tree sits forward that much. Kind of like the opposite of wedging.
> 
> Coaster- I've used a full faced dutch on several occasions. You need to gut the heartwood and have her cut up tight. Its great for when you need the butt free in a hurry.



either i'm not seeing it right or they were just doing it for demonstration to teach the guy with the saw. around here we demonstrate and then let him do the next one alone. not pound wedges for him LOL there is no reason 2 guys should have been at that stump and no reason it should have took that long. these guys are not professionals in my mind. if they are i don't know what to think about what they call a professional down south. tree sling'r is a professional californian. i'm sure a full faced dutch is acceptable where your from. just don't move here and try it LOL


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

WC90, a no chap faller in BC? Surely with all those safety regulations you have up there, you guys have a chap inspector that scouts ahead of the stump inspector. No?

Ron


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

rwoods said:


> WC90, a no chap faller in BC? Surely with all those safety regulations you have up there, you guys have a chap inspector that scouts ahead of the stump inspector. No?
> 
> Ron



chaps are a weekend warrior thing up here. not legal for professional cutters. gotta be wearing fallers pants. even if i was legal i sure as hell wouldn't be working in the woods with those things snag'n on everything. heck, i'll go commando before i wear chaps LOL well not really i guess but i do hate chaps.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

Shane, im wondering if Im too old and set in my ways to get B.C certification?


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Shane, im wondering if Im too old and set in my ways to get B.C certification?



almost all self taught guys have some bad habits to break if i was you i'd just keep doing what your doing. no sense in going for certification at 62. there's a guy here who did it at 42 and got himself killed first year. you might be able to find the story with google. all i remember is his name was hugh. forget his last name but i figure it happened around august-september last year. poor guy just wanted to do better for his family but got KO'd to soon.


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

My ignorance showing again. Thanks for clarifying, Shane. I thought maybe you were opposing protective gear - didn't occur to me you were contrasting chaps and protective pants. In the less regulated south, you will find many loggers without either. A few shirtless ones as well. But many of them know their way around a tree as well as any safety compliant faller.

Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 12, 2015)

this is just getting ridicules


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## Big_Wood (Jun 12, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> this is just getting ridicules



i know right, i think mustang mike started this whole mess


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

WC90, to clarify when I said south I was speaking of The South. Most of those guys to the west and north of here wear shirts and boots.  I also hear that many of them are regulated as well by law and/or company policy. Ron


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## stihl sawing (Jun 12, 2015)

Sheesh, you guys are working too hard, Just wait till the wind blows em over and then cut em up. Much easier and less dangerous.


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## stihl sawing (Jun 12, 2015)

But don't be in the woods when the wind comes.


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## rwoods (Jun 12, 2015)

You are right we should stay out of the woods. If we were there then the tree would have to make a noise. Ron


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## huskihl (Jun 12, 2015)

rwoods said:


> You are right we should stay out of the woods. If we were there then the tree would have to make a noise. Ron


And you know what happens on AS. If there's no audio, it never happened lol


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## Bwildered (Jun 12, 2015)

In relation to similar videos, if anyone believes that a tree can be felled against the lean without wedging, jacking, pushing or pulling & just doing some fancycutting when the C of G is on the opposite side to the desired direction of fall then they believe in some black art like voodoo or black magic. I couldn't understand the back cut first, then trying to push the tree only half cut with a couple of plastic wedges, normally one would just cut through to 3/4 depth on the back cut with a decent wedge/s driven in as you go, then wedge the tree over the C of G, then using your axe chop a belly in it , a couple more hits on the wedge & over it goes, maybe they were Govt workers who have to work in pairs doing time consuming tasks & have still got the wool pulled over the eyes of their supervisors with their black art of falling.
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 12, 2015)

Here's me getting some training from Ace West Coast faller Dennis Cahoon.


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## MustangMike (Jun 13, 2015)

OK, so this is not a felling questions, but I got this wood burl today on a piece of Black Birch.

Does it have any value? Any suggestions what I should do with it (I know, I likely should not ask that)?

Any advice appreciated.


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

I sell burls to a guy who turns em into bowls. I get 20-30 bucks for a basketball sized one. It doesn't sound like much, but I don't have to do much for em.


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> In relation to similar videos, if anyone believes that a tree can be felled against the lean without wedging, jacking, pushing or pulling & just doing some fancycutting when the C of G is on the opposite side to the desired direction of fall then they believe in some black art like voodoo or black magic. I couldn't understand the back cut first, then trying to push the tree only half cut with a couple of plastic wedges, normally one would just cut through to 3/4 depth on the back cut with a decent wedge/s driven in as you go, then wedge the tree over the C of G, then using your axe chop a belly in it , a couple more hits on the wedge & over it goes, maybe they were Govt workers who have to work in pairs doing time consuming tasks & have still got the wool pulled over the eyes of their supervisors with their black art of falling.
> Thansk


I've turned trees 180 degrees from the lean with no wedging. Look up soft dutchman on youtube. Hotsaws101 does a great explaination of it. Thats not what they are doing in that video though.


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

Ok its been some years since I last watched that video of slowp's, but its exactly how I remembered it. Small dbh can make a fool of anyone. They can be a *****. They did exactly what they wanted to do and that kind of situation takes a little time. When hes cutting the low side you can see he has to pull out quick as it sits on his tip. There wasn't a lot of wood to work with and limb-locked. Usually I would cut that whole far side off and let it lean out. Then get a wedge in the low side back corner. After that its probably nip from the face, nip from the back, tap wedge, etc. I'm guessing those where leave trees to the left.

To those of you acting like these guys have no clue of what they're doing I know exactly where your skill level and stump time now exist. I've got yer number.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 13, 2015)

How many liquid refreshments have you had this evening??


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## Bwildered (Jun 13, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I've turned trees 180 degrees from the lean with no wedging. Look up soft dutchman on youtube. Hotsaws101 does a great explaination of it. Thats not what they are doing in that video though.


I'm sure you believed you fell it against the lean, but the simple laws of gravity can't be over come without some other force, if a tree is leaning & the centre of gravity is beyond the centreline of the stump then the timber on either side of that will be in tension or compression, falling against the lean you cut the belly on the tension side, then cut the back cut on the compression side, this cut will close up putting the hinge holding wood in total tension, any further cutting anywhere will release that tension until the hinge fails pulling fibres from this tension when the remainder can't take any more force, the tree will then fall backwards generally in the line of the lean or off to the side slightly if the hinge is taken out more on one side, Gravity is a real b**ch, LOL
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 13, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Here's me getting some training from Ace West Coast faller Dennis Cahoon.



You have the retreat down pat, But he wears a helmet? LOL
Thansk


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I'm sure you believed you fell it against the lean, but the simple laws of gravity can't be over come without some other force, if a tree is leaning & the centre of gravity is beyond the centreline of the stump then the timber on either side of that will be in tension or compression, falling against the lean you cut the belly on the tension side, then cut the back cut on the compression side, this cut will close up putting the hinge holding wood in total tension, any further cutting anywhere will release that tension until the hinge fails pulling fibres from this tension when the remainder can't take any more force, the tree will then fall backwards generally in the line of the lean or off to the side slightly if the hinge is taken out more on one side, Gravity is a real b**ch, LOL
> Thansk


Apparently theres a lot you don't know about. I see you understand tension and compression. Thats good. Fibers bend and turn and stretch with the proper motivation. Removing wood in the right places gives them that motivation. You can manipulate the tension and compression wood in such a way to reverse them. You just need to know how far you can manipulate the fibers before they break. Species by species. Tree by tree. What do you do for a living?


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> How many liquid refreshments have you had this evening??


About half as many as you.


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## 056 kid (Jun 13, 2015)

Bitzer! How have things been? It seems as though folks have become somewhat rowdy around here! And I like to see that.


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 13, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I'm sure you believed you fell it against the lean, but the simple laws of gravity can't be over come without some other force... Gravity is a real b**ch, LOL


Actually, gravity is not as simple as you think. The reality is that you're standing upside down relative to everyone in the Northern Hemisphere since gravity is actually reversed when crossing the equatorial space-time continuum; as a result trees can be felled up here in ways that you can't imagine. Cheers.


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## MustangMike (Jun 13, 2015)

Yea, and don't forget to fell in the direction of the full moon to get a little additional pull!!!! Hey, it even makes the tides bigger!

But of course, only crazy people fell when the full moon is out.


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## Deets066 (Jun 13, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> Yea, and don't forget to fell in the direction of the full moon to get a little additional pull!!!! Hey, it even makes the tides bigger!
> 
> But of course, only crazy people fell when the full moon is out.


I fall all the time when the moon is out.


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## stihl sawing (Jun 13, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I fall all the time when the moon is out.


Fell twice this morning cutting a tree up.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 13, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Apparently theres a lot you don't know about. I see you understand tension and compression. Thats good. Fibers bend and turn and stretch with the proper motivation. Removing wood in the right places gives them that motivation. You can manipulate the tension and compression wood in such a way to reverse them. You just need to know how far you can manipulate the fibers before they break. Species by species. Tree by tree. What do you do for a living?


So... That was You in the above contraversial video!


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 13, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> Fell twice this morning cutting a tree up.


Have a nice trip. See ya next fall. Lol


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## stihl sawing (Jun 13, 2015)

Mt dern oiler gave up the ghost this morning. Typical stihl.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 13, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> Mt dern oiler gave up the ghost this morning. Typical stihl.


Ya prolly just forgot to put oil into the saw. Happens to methuselah all the time.


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## bitzer (Jun 13, 2015)

056 kid said:


> Bitzer! How have things been? It seems as though folks have become somewhat rowdy around here! And I like to see that.


Good to see you on here Ted! Killin timber, turnin wrenches, spendin money, makin money. The usual. You cuttin anything of size these days? You gotta get on here more often. Someone has to help swat the flies away.


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## 056 kid (Jun 13, 2015)

Haha, evedently so!. Shoot, ive been sawing all kinds of haggerd jazz. We just pulled onto a new tract. Got a few clear cuts (plus) along with some fat logs. They are short and dying though. Theres a nice poplar patch ill try and photograph when i get to it. Hope things prosper for ya.


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## 056 kid (Jun 13, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Ya prolly just forgot to put oil into the saw. Happens to methuselah all the time.



"Methuselah" we got dope smokers on here now?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

056 kid said:


> Haha, evedently so!. Shoot, ive been sawing all kinds of haggerd jazz. We just pulled onto a new tract. Got a few clear cuts (plus) along with some fat logs. They are short and dying though. Theres a nice poplar patch ill try and photograph when i get to it. Hope things prosper for ya.


pics Ted, pics!


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## rwoods (Jun 13, 2015)

056 kid said:


> Bitzer! How have things been? It seems as though folks have become *somewhat rowdy around here! And I like to see that.*



kid, many of the PNW folks are at a GTG so there's no marshal in town. Even so, things have never been the same after Slamm found the ignore button. Pulp wood wars provided a lot of entertainment for many of us. You need to check in more often particularly now that you are bi-coastal. 

Hope you landed in a patch of poplar that is big and stout. Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

poplar pics dammit............i'm stuck in a pine thicket


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## rwoods (Jun 13, 2015)

Mike, the poplar is topped. Hurricane Opal topped her in 1998. Prior to that she was 135' high. Just a couple miles from my stomping grounds in WNC. 2nd largest in USA. Nearby was a stump of a poplar of the same age; it was cut but proved too much effort for the oxen so this tree was spared the cross-cut. Stock photo.








Ron


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## 2dogs (Jun 13, 2015)

My next door neighbor is a custom cabinet maker who uses a lot of poplar on his less expensive jobs. I am curious now where the wood comes from.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Mike, the poplar is topped. Hurricane Opal topped her in 1998. Prior to that she was 135' high. Just a couple miles from my stomping grounds in WNC. 2nd largest in USA. Nearby was a stump of a poplar of the same age; it was cut but proved too much effort for the oxen so this tree was spared the cross-cut. Stock photo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


can i come fall it? 6' diameter and about 120 high is my record, i'd like to break it lol. most trees that size here will be hollow, but i have cut a couple solid ones.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

2dogs said:


> My next door neighbor is a custom cabinet maker who uses a lot of poplar on his less expensive jobs. I am curious now where the wood comes from.


mostly the south east.......


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## Big_Wood (Jun 13, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> can i come fall it? 6' diameter and about 120 high is my record, i'd like to break it lol. most trees that size here will be hollow, but i have cut a couple solid ones.



it is likely protected from any of us by law LOL  my record as now is 13' and that was over 5 years ago. still alot of big wood around here that isn't protected for guys looking to break there record.  there's a few i know of within 20 mins of my house i'd be happy to spot you on if you make the trip.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

Bill, poplar is a soft hard wood, very stable and able to take any stain well. it is not like cottonwood.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> it is likely protected from any of us by law LOL  my record as now is 13' and that was over 5 years ago. still alot of big wood around here that isn't protected for guys looking to break there record.  there's a few i know of within 20 mins of my house i'd be happy to spot you on if you make the trip.


not many here quite that big any more. at one time there were a few protected survivors but most of those have died off.....wolf trees really.
thanks but i would likely never meet the requirements there.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 13, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> not many here quite that big any more. at one time there were a few protected survivors but most of those have died off.....wolf trees really.
> thanks but i would likely never meet the requirements there.



no need for requirements when yer a weekend warrior  a guy only has to meet the requirements here if he is harvesting wood for money. my buddy wants me to go fall the one anyways LOL it's hanging off the corner of vargas island. was just gonna drop into the water so he can pull it away to his beach to mill. i would say it's about a 16' cedar. break my record even. we've been talking about it for way to long. might just have to do it one day. sucky thing is you can only access it by boat and it's a tidal zone so you'll have to work fast to get it in the water before the tide goes out.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 13, 2015)

man they would throw me under the jail here for doing some thing like that. tidal water is a big dam deal now days........too big.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 13, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> man they would throw me under the jail here for doing some thing like that. tidal water is a big dam deal now days........too big.


not a big deal here. as long as no wood ends up in creeks or rivers your good to go. my buddy lives on the foothills of catface mountain with TONS of old growth behind his cabin. couple years ago we went and fell nearly every snag off the shores close to his house into the water so he could drag it to his beach to cut up for firewood.


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## moondoggie (Jun 13, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Mike, the poplar is topped. Hurricane Opal topped her in 1998. Prior to that she was 135' high. Just a couple miles from my stomping grounds in WNC. 2nd largest in USA. Nearby was a stump of a poplar of the same age; it was cut but proved too much effort for the oxen so this tree was spared the cross-cut. Stock photo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Joyce Kilmer National Forest???


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

Nothing happier can anything make me.
As when I softly kill a beautiful tree.


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## Deets066 (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Nothing happier can anything make me.
> As when I softly kill a beautiful tree.


Your quite poetic.


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## moondoggie (Jun 14, 2015)

*Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest*
This forest is one of the Nation’s most impressive remnants of old-growth forest. The forest contains magnificent examples of more than 100 tree species, many over 400-years-old, and some more than 20 feet in circumference and 100 feet tall. This 3,800-acre forest was set aside in 1936 as a memorial to the author of the poem “Trees,” Joyce Kilmer, who was killed in action in France during World War I. This forest, part of the Joyce Kilmer-Slick Rock Wilderness, is maintained in its primitive state. The only way to see this forest is on foot. A 2-mile trail leads to the Joyce Kilmer Memorial and loops through giant trees. A restroom and picnic tables are located at the trailhead.

Check out the brochure.

*At a Glance*
*Open Season:* Year Round
*Usage:* Light
*Closest Towns:* Robbinsville
*Restroom:* Vault
*General Information*
*Directions: *Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest is located about 15 miles from Robbinsville. From Robbinsville, take Highway 129 North for 1½ miles to the junction with Highway 143 West (Massey Branch Road). Turn left on Highway 143 and travel approx 5 miles to a stop sign. Turn right onto Kilmer Road. Drive for approx 7.3 miles and bear to the right at the junction of Santeetlah Gap and the Cherohala Skyway. Continue for another 2½ miles to the entrance of the Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest.


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## Bwildered (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Apparently theres a lot you don't know about. I see you understand tension and compression. Thats good. Fibers bend and turn and stretch with the proper motivation. Removing wood in the right places gives them that motivation. You can manipulate the tension and compression wood in such a way to reverse them. You just need to know how far you can manipulate the fibers before they break. Species by species. Tree by tree. What do you do for a living?


i wish I could believe you, but it's just not possible to get the trees C of G from one side of the centre line (c l) of the stump to the other side without some other external force being exerted on the bole, don't take my word for it, talk to a structural engineer or physicist. I'm just a wood butcher who falls, snigs, saws & builds out of the stuff, started carting saws & fuel in the bush 45 years ago.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 14, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> Actually, gravity is not as simple as you think. The reality is that you're standing upside down relative to everyone in the Northern Hemisphere since gravity is actually reversed when crossing the equatorial space-time continuum; as a result trees can be felled up here in ways that you can't imagine. Cheers.


That sounds like a perfectly logical explanation, I'll drink another to that! LOL
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

moondoggie, that tree is in Macon County near the Standing Indian campground off old highway 64 (now Old Murphy Road).

Bwildered, I don't know how far you can turn a tree but once it is moving proper cuts create / set up the outside forces that make it turn. An airplane wing can't fly sitting still, but when moving in the right direction it does. 

Ron


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## moondoggie (Jun 14, 2015)

rwoods said:


> moondoggie, that tree is in Macon County near the Standing Indian campground off old highway 64 (now Old Murphy Road).
> 
> Bwildered, I don't know how far you can turn a tree but once it is moving proper cuts create / set up the outside forces that make it turn. An airplane wing can't fly sitting still, but when moving in the right direction it does.
> 
> Ron


Thanks sounds close to robbinsville nc.


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## Bwildered (Jun 14, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bwildered, I don't know how far you can turn a tree but once it is moving proper cuts create / set up the outside forces that make it turn. An airplane wing can't fly sitting still, but when moving in the right direction it does.
> 
> Ron


I can't, don't want to, or need to turn a tree, the object is to get them laying down quickly & as safe as possible where they are easy to extract, if a tree has spun while it's falling the hinge has been over cut, which means someone has spent too much time cutting it off at the stump & not enough time getting out of the danger zone.
Thansk


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## HuskStihl (Jun 14, 2015)

Often, when time is taken to turn a tree, it is to prevent it from falling into an area where it will be difficult to retrieve, to make sure it hits the ground in an orientation that reduces split potential, to avoid breaking it on stumps, and to facilitate picking up with the skidder, etc.


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

moondoggie, the tree is located about 15 miles west of Franklin. Joyce Kilmer is close to Robbinsville. I visited JK once as a kid, very impressive then but also a lot of storm damage. My brothers and I used to visit Standing Indian campground regularly hoping to see pretty girls; only once did I make the hike to see the tree. Although it was in its glory then, I was disappointed that it was so short as I had the redwoods photographed in the fifties by my grandparents in mind. 

Bwildered, apparently there are plenty of loggers here with the same objectives as yours who need to and do turn trees safely. 

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Nothing happier can anything make me.
> As when I softly kill a beautiful tree.


Tree hater!


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## moondoggie (Jun 14, 2015)

rwoods said:


> moondoggie, the tree is located about 15 miles west of Franklin. Joyce Kilmer is close to Robbinsville. I visited JK once as a kid, very impressive then but also a lot of storm damage. My brothers and I used to visit Standing Indian campground regularly hoping to see pretty girls; only once did I make the hike to see the tree. Although it was in its glory then, I was disappointed that it was so short as I had the redwoods photographed in the fifties by my grandparents in mind.
> 
> Bwildered, apparently there are plenty of loggers here with the same objectives as yours who need to and do turn trees safely.
> 
> Ron


I am in Brevard pretty close to franklin I will have to check it out one day. Thanks for the information


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## moondoggie (Jun 14, 2015)

My wife says once you hug a logger you will never go back to trees lol! We saw it on a bumper sticker. I love trees to but I certainly dont worship trees. I respect them and use them to heat and make money, furniture. Its a rush to cut trees but I try and say a prayer it is the trees and my behalf before cutting down. Its like killing an animal I dont like it but its necessary to live. I say a silent prayer cleaning fish or deer. I take no joy in taking life but its designed that way for us to live rather it be a carrot, seed, or meat so be it trees and there many many uses we need to live.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

Forgive these butchers, fore they know not what they do.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Forgive these butchers, fore they know not what they do.


i know exactly what i do........Jesus was a carpenter.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> i wish I could believe you, but it's just not possible to get the trees C of G from one side of the centre line (c l) of the stump to the other side without some other external force being exerted on the bole, don't take my word for it, talk to a structural engineer or physicist. I'm just a wood butcher who falls, snigs, saws & builds out of the stuff, started carting saws & fuel in the bush 45 years ago.
> Thansk


When you cut a kerf in you are taking approximatly 3/8" of wood out of it. Its the opposite of wedging. When you lift a tree 3/8" it moves the top right? When you remove 3/8" than 3/4" than 1 1/8" by sawing into it you are moving the top by feet the same way that you would wedge a tree. If you have multiple kerfs set up in order to keep the movement going you can get the tree to sit down, sit out, and then come back around to the front. You need a small topped tree like a conifer or how some ash, basswood, and aspen can grow. Too much top in hardwood can mean a stall or break. You are using the tree's own tensile strength and gravity. It can be done safely. In production timber falling trees are swung everyday. Typically about 90 degrees or so, but more can and has been done by many others than just me. It takes a lot of practice and experience, but I do it everyday. I swing trees to save leave trees, save out my tree, or make it easier to get them out. I've developed my own ideas on how trees move and react through trial and error and years of experience. I've had several semesters in physics. That is part of where my ideas have sprung from. Not everything has to be face, backcut, wedge, with a uniform hinge. Thats what the safety classes and books will have you to believe. Its a good starting point, but manipulation of the enviroment has led to progress and invention through out time. When we define a truth it often is replaced by another more revised or updated truth.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i know exactly what i do........Jesus was a carpenter.


Yep he was helping keep the mill busy, helping keep us busy.


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## moondoggie (Jun 14, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i know exactly what i do........Jesus was a carpenter.


That's what I was saying


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## gomoto69 (Jun 14, 2015)

Sorry, but i would have to see a video of a tree leaning, and having it fall 180 degrees to the lean by the method you describe before i can believe it possible, simple as plumbing 101, sh!t don't run uphill!


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## PA Dan (Jun 14, 2015)

When in doubt throw a rope in it.[/QUOTE]


I like ropes!


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Sorry, but i would have to see a video of a tree leaning, and having it fall 180 degrees to the lean by the method you describe before i can believe it possible, simple as plumbing 101, sh!t don't run uphill!


Hotsaws101 -soft dutchman - youtube. Jacks the man! First time I ever saw it. You really need to be there to watch the top to get the full effect. You ever saw lean into a tree?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

it does depend on lean, obviously a heavy back leaner isn't going the opposite direction, but a slight back leaner can be spun almost all the way round.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

A tree is not water or metal or brick. Its something that moves. Ever see one blow away from its lean in the wind? The fibers stretch and bend.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> it does depend on lean, obviously a heavy back leaner isn't going the opposite direction, but a slight back leaner can be spun almost all the way round.


Yep thats why I referenced conifers and some hardwoods I've done it with. A big heavy headed, heavy leaning red oak is really only going one way.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Sorry, but i would have to see a video of a tree leaning, and having it fall 180 degrees to the lean by the method you describe before i can believe it possible, simple as plumbing 101, sh!t don't run uphill!


I agree, it cant be done unless the tree is pulled over or the tree is refelled 12 times with 48 wedges.
Dont listen to Bitzer he's just a:


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Yep thats why I referenced conifers and some hardwoods I've done it with. A big heavy headed, heavy leaning red oak is really only going one way.


i know that bitz, just tryin to help clarify


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I agree, it cant be done unless the tree is pulled over or the tree is refelled 12 times with 48 wedges.
> Dont listen to Bitzer he's just a:View attachment 430595


I wish I had the free time you have. What does yer typical day consist of?


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i know that bitz, just tryin to help clarify


I know you know. I didn't make that clear, I just assumed. I mean some you can't do much with. Cut em up and hope for the best.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I wish I had the free time you have. What does yer typical day consist of?


Falling trees 180 to the opposing lean.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

yeah one thing is certain, any one who has never fall big oak can't know, ya just gut um and let um go.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Falling trees 180 to the opposing lean.


Thats witchcraft John. Them indians teach ya that?


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

His ultra soft dutchmen video has a better explaination. I just watched em both. These videos are like 5 years old and I'll bet he wasn't the first to think of these cuts.


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

PA Dan said:


> When in doubt throw a rope in it.




I like ropes![/QUOTE]

I like ropes too - but I'm not logging - which is where this thread went sideways. But it takes more than a rope - you need some heft behind it. Below are some pictures of an old dead oak that I cut opposite the lean. I thought a 6,000# vehicle on a downhill slope would be enough. It was just enough to get me in trouble. It kept the kerf open two wedges high but not enough to pull the tree over. Running thin on hinge, I called in some help and with another 4wd pickup chained to the rear of the first we were able to tension the rope enough to fall the tree with just a little more thinning. You can tell from the height of the cut end that it had plenty of lean plus the limb load.

Before anyone gets out of joint, I wouldn't have tried this if there were any real danger if the tree fell with the lean - the tree was on the property line and falling against the lean kept it on the owner's property and saved a big clean up job. And, yes, it is a high stump - just the way my old back likes them.





Ron


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## HuskStihl (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm out of joints


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

It's kind of boring sitting out the GTG. If you can remember, Jon, how about telling us some stories of your times before you were out. 

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

Ron, is it too late for you to get a pic of the stump and/or the butt of the tree?
Thx
John


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

John, it is too embarrassing to show. IIRC it is one of those two cut face cuts in a very rotten face. Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

Ron that would been so super easy with a skidder. i guess i don't know what its like to have to find a way without one.


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

Don't think I can get home office approval on a skidder. In fact, I'm suppose to be selling my deuce which isn't even parked within sight of headquarters.  Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

rwoods said:


> John, it is too embarrassing to show. IIRC it is one of those two cut face cuts in a very rotten face. Ron


No need to be embarrassed around here Ron, its open season on everybody. Lol
I just wanted to see if there was an unintentional dutchman. Dutchmans make for very difficult wedging or any other mechanical means.
Pretty ugly looking tree, but you got it down safely and thats what counts.


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

John, I do all kinds of unintentional cuts - how else do you think I would know you can turn a tree? Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> When you cut a kerf in you are taking approximatly 3/8" of wood out of it. Its the opposite of wedging. When you lift a tree 3/8" it moves the top right? When you remove 3/8" than 3/4" than 1 1/8" by sawing into it you are moving the top by feet the same way that you would wedge a tree. If you have multiple kerfs set up in order to keep the movement going you can get the tree to sit down, sit out, and then come back around to the front. You need a small topped tree like a conifer or how some ash, basswood, and aspen can grow. Too much top in hardwood can mean a stall or break. You are using the tree's own tensile strength and gravity. It can be done safely. In production timber falling trees are swung everyday. Typically about 90 degrees or so, but more can and has been done by many others than just me. It takes a lot of practice and experience, but I do it everyday. I swing trees to save leave trees, save out my tree, or make it easier to get them out. I've developed my own ideas on how trees move and react through trial and error and years of experience. I've had several semesters in physics. That is part of where my ideas have sprung from. Not everything has to be face, backcut, wedge, with a uniform hinge. Thats what the safety classes and books will have you to believe. Its a good starting point, but manipulation of the enviroment has led to progress and invention through out time. When we define a truth it often is replaced by another more revised or updated truth.


Here's some myth busting you can do yourself, go down to your shed, grab a long handled broom, stick it in the vice upwards with the last inch clamped in it, get a spirit level and lean the broom about a thickness of the handle to one side, now get a hack saw & cut it as if it was a tree with your method & see if you can get it to fall opposite to the way it's leaning, you will be the first person in history to defeat gravity with no other external forces if you do.
I believe what you guys or girls are doing is cutting near perfectly balanced trees which appear to be leaning, with the soft Dutchman or the very tricky ultra double Dutch Dutchman cut the timber collapses on that side under the butt which then applies a tipping force on the the other side of the butt sending the tree over, the hinge is gone so spinning of the tree is a likely if there are branches on a side more than another.
Thansk


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## mdavlee (Jun 14, 2015)




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## mdavlee (Jun 14, 2015)




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## mdavlee (Jun 14, 2015)




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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

mike has that dude got a siswheel vid?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

never mind, i watched the second one. wished Glen had made a vid


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## gomoto69 (Jun 14, 2015)

Not convinced, i didn't see any evidence that the tree was leaning away from the direction it fell, and that a simple undercut and backcut would have resulted in the same ending. If the tree was actually leaning back, the backcut would have closed up due to gravity, no matter how many times you slice into your facecut. If you have more weight over the backside of the stump, thats the way its going. Its like sailing into the wind, doesn't work, you can angle into it, same as you can swing a tree away from a lean, to a point, and thats it, its not falling back into a lean no matter what you do at the stump, unless it's near perfectly balanced to begin with.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Here's some myth busting you can do yourself, go down to your shed, grab a long handled broom, stick it in the vice upwards with the last inch clamped in it, get a spirit level and lean the broom about a thickness of the handle to one side, now get a hack saw & cut it as if it was a tree with your method & see if you can get it to fall opposite to the way it's leaning, you will be the first person in history to defeat gravity with no other external forces if you do.
> I believe what you guys or girls are doing is cutting perfectly balanced trees which appear to be leaning, with the soft Dutchman or the very tricky ultra double Dutch Dutchman cut the timber collapses on that side under the butt which then applies a tipping force on the their side sending the tree over, the hinge is gone so spinning of the tree is a likely if there are branches on a side more than another.
> Thansk




Yer not going to get it and thats fine. Its not for everyone. I do it for a living though and have seconds to figure out what I can do with a tree. Its not a ****ing broom dude.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

gomoto69 said:


> Not convinced, i didn't see any evidence that the tree was leaning away from the direction it fell, and that a simple undercut and backcut would have resulted in the same ending. If the tree was actually leaning back, the backcut would have closed up due to gravity, no matter how many times you slice into your facecut. If you have more weight over the backside of the stump, thats the way its going. Its like sailing into the wind, doesn't work, you can angle into it, same as you can swing a tree away from a lean, to a point, and thats it, its not falling back into a lean no matter what you do at the stump, unless it's near perfectly balanced to begin with.


All the limb weight was on the back. You could see that right? It does sit back for a second then rolls out into the kerfs. What do you do for a living? It sounds like you've got a basic knowledge of cutting timber.


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## bitzer (Jun 14, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> never mind, i watched the second one. wished Glen had made a vid


He has one called ugly stump. I'll get some pics of mine up one of these days mike.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> He has one called ugly stump. I'll get some pics of mine up one of these days mike.


Glen has a vid? link or addy?


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

bewildered, I don't believe you can replicate what these guys are trying to show you with a broom handle and a hacksaw. The broom handle is dry and less pliable; other than Jon, none of us have the deftness nor tools to scale the cuts to relative size; nor are you dealing with proportionate mass. You seem to miss the motion and momentum components. The tree is increasingly moving downward with each cut and incrementally in the desired direction. Have I turned a tree 180 degrees - no. Have I turned trees close to 90 degrees - yes and I am a hack (at least one intentionally and a few unintentionally). 

gomoto69, I can't tell it was a true 180 but it is close enough for me. From an armchair view, the cuts extend beyond the face cut on one side towards the lean. He cuts until the tree starts to sit down on the saw. This continues from cut to cut which progressively overcomes the natural lean.

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Yer not going to get it and thats fine. Its not for everyone. I do it for a living though and have seconds to figure out what I can do with a tree. Its not a ****ing broom dude.


Bitz, you gotta wait for your mentor to get back from his Gtg to see what he says. Lol.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

Oh! Before I forget, there are two escaped convicts from a NY prison. They may be armed and dangerous!
They have taken to a heavily wooded area and may be in Canada by now, so dont trust anybody that sneaks up behind you in the bush and watch out for your saws and dont leave the keys in your truck.


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## gomoto69 (Jun 14, 2015)

I explained my experience falling trees earlier in this thread, not a seasoned pro, nor claim to be, but was trained well and fell professionally for about 6 months, so have cut many more trees than a firewood cutter will cut in several lifetimes. Maybe what you're doing can work on a tree that has a very slight weight advantage on one side, i will give you the benefit of the doubt there, but remain unconvinced that any significant amount of weight can be overcome by what you're doing.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

Ok Gomer69, (sorry, I couldn't resist).
Dont be so hard on the guys that do firewood, they deal with the same dangers that we all do and more, plus they work alot harder to make their money than most loggers do .
My hats off to you though for being honest about your level of experience.
John


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## stihl sawing (Jun 14, 2015)

She makes me want to rub my titties like the fat guy in the video.lol


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## Deets066 (Jun 14, 2015)

I've noticed when tryin to swing trees it does sit back on the bar for sec and then comes off and rolls around. I just figured I wasn't doin somethin right, I've only done that a handful of times


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## gomoto69 (Jun 14, 2015)

Didn't mean that as any kind of putdown towards firewood cutters, not my style to put anyone down or to pretend i'm something i'm not, just felt as tho my abilities were being called out, and have really just tried to pass along some honest advice to those with less experience the safer ways i've learned to get a tree on the ground, not to try and show how great i am by using oddball techniques, where a few taps on a wedge would accomplish the same goal, with far less chance of a pinched bar or tree falling backwards, but to each his own. Oh, and the name is supposed to read more like 'go moto', because even at almost 50, i still love to get out and bang bars in arenacross once in a while on my kx450, but i can see where you'd get the gomer thing from it! It's all good, i don't make money with chainsaws anymore, i drive trucks in the oilpatch, more money, less stress, don't have to work so hard. Again, my apology to anyone i might have offended, you need a hug gypo?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 14, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I've noticed when tryin to swing trees it does sit back on the bar for sec and then comes off and rolls around. I just figured I wasn't doin somethin right, I've only done that a handful of times


you kept the bar there just a hair to long lol.


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

In relative terms, it seems we have now all agreed that you can turn some trees to some degree or another without a wedge. Beyond that and the fact that movement is needed to turn a tree, I don't think we can expect much else by way of discussion as there is no real way to quantify load and lean beyond generalities. I have never tried the cuts shown in the two videos and likely never will, but I believe I understand the basic physics. 

Falling with the lean is almost SOP for this firewood hack. Just reading directional falling posts and a little experimentation has taught me that my sloppy face cuts and uneven hinges account for most of my falls that don't land where I expected. After grasping the principles, replacing unintentional results with intentional results isn't that hard in theory; but it is a bit tough without a lot of practice - something I don't get enough.

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

Falling trees for the most part is much like opening a cupboard door, they both have hinges. An unintentional dutchman is the same as a jammed cupboard door. Something is gonna break or hang up.


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## Bwildered (Jun 14, 2015)

rwoods said:


> bewildered, I don't believe you can replicate what these guys are trying to show you with a broom handle and a hacksaw. The broom handle is dry and less pliable; other than Jon, none of us have the deftness nor tools to scale the cuts to relative size; nor are you dealing with proportionate mass. You seem to miss the motion and momentum components. The tree is increasingly moving downward with each cut and incrementally in the desired direction. Have I turned a tree 180 degrees - no. Have I turned trees close to 90 degrees - yes and I am a hack (at least one intentionally and a few unintentionally).
> 
> gomoto69, I can't tell it was a true 180 but it is close enough for me. From an armchair view, the cuts extend beyond the face cut on one side towards the lean. He cuts until the tree starts to sit down on the saw. This continues from cut to cut which progressively overcomes the natural lean.
> 
> Ron


I was just saving you a walk & costing you an inch of broom handle, in that case go & trim a seeding & try the same thing, report back if you've cracked the impossible defying gravity, LOL
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

Bwildered, I have tried to explain the physics and it appeared that you agreed but just differed on the magnitude.



Bwildered said:


> I believe what you guys or girls are doing is cutting near perfectly balanced trees which appear to be leaning, with the soft Dutchman or the very tricky ultra double Dutch Dutchman cut the timber collapses on that side under the butt which then applies a tipping force on the the other side of the butt sending the tree over



There were two videos on the technique. If you don't agree then that is fine with me as I am talking theory. Don't know how you answer the guys who have actually done it. But no one is defying gravity any more than an airplane defies gravity. All these guys are doing is using gravity to create motion which in turn swings the the stem. The first kerf he cuts is in the lean sufficient for it to begin moving (Note his reference to just beginning to pinch the bar). The next cut continues this progression - all using gravity. It is just a technique to gradually change the center of gravity of the stem coupled with I am sure the design of the hinge to complete the turn.

Ron


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Of course you can swing a tree with cutting aways from its natural lay, one way is with 5-6-7 cuts, the other is with 3 cuts, angling the backcut to near nothing on the side you want it to swing away from, a balanced tree will go safely anyway you want it to with a wedge, no pinched saws, no bent bars, no lost production, no hung up trees laying back into the stand, no getting the sack for d*cking around doing something potentially dangerous.
> Thansk



I'm not qualified to argue production cutting with you. But what you just said is a far cry from your previous assertions about this technique. Ron


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

It is bedtime over here so I am cutting out.  Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 14, 2015)

rwoods said:


> In relative terms, it seems we have now all agreed that you can turn some trees to some degree or another without a wedge. Beyond that and the fact that movement is needed to turn a tree, I don't think we can expect much else by way of discussion as there is no real way to quantify load and lean beyond generalities. I have never tried the cuts shown in the two videos and likely never will, but I believe I understand the basic physics.
> 
> Falling with the lean is almost SOP for this firewood hack. Just reading directional falling posts and a little experimentation has taught me that my sloppy face cuts and uneven hinges account for most of my falls that don't land where I expected. After grasping the principles, replacing unintentional results with intentional results isn't that hard in theory; but it is a bit tough without a lot of practice - something I don't get enough.
> 
> Ron


Of course you can swing a tree with cutting aways from its natural lay, one way is with 5-6-7 cuts, the other is with 3 cuts, angling the backcut to near nothing on the side you want it to swing away from, a balanced tree will go safely anyway you want it to with a wedge, no pinched saws, no bent bars, no lost production, no hung up trees laying back into the stand, no getting the sack for d*cking around


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 14, 2015)

Lets see how many fights we can have within one thread. Lol
It would appear that the PNWer's are trying to draw in some of the Flat Landers.
I'm neither, Im from Siberia. Lol
And by the way. You guys are more boring than a plunge cut


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## rwoods (Jun 14, 2015)

Fighting? I believe Bwildered and I were having a genteel trans-continental discussion while encountering some outside interference from a self described Yukon/Siberian cull.  Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 15, 2015)

What are you guys having for din dins?
As you can see I have CAD- Chair Aquisition Disorder.
Ive taken to collecting old chairs. Why, I couldn't tell ya.
John


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## Bwildered (Jun 15, 2015)

rwoods said:


> I'm not qualified to argue production cutting with you. But what you just said is a far cry from your previous assertions about this technique. Ron



"Turn " & "swing" are noticeably different terms to me



Bwildered said:


> I can't, don't want to, or need to *turn* a tree, the object is to get them laying down quickly & as safe as possible where they are easy to extract, if a tree has *spun* while it's falling the hinge has been over cut, which means someone has spent too much time cutting it off at the stump & not enough time getting out of the danger zone.
> Thansk





Bwildered said:


> Of course you can *swing* a tree with cutting aways from its natural lay, one way is with 5-6-7 cuts, the other is with 3 cuts, angling the backcut to near nothing on the side you want it to swing away from, a balanced tree will go safely anyway you want it to with a wedge, no pinched saws, no bent bars, no lost production, no hung up trees laying back into the stand, no getting the sack for d*cking around


Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 15, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 430737
> What are you guys having for din dins?
> As you can see I have CAD- Chair Aquisition Disorder.
> Ive taken to collecting old chairs. Why, I couldn't tell ya.
> John


 I'll take a guess that they are better to sit on than the ground. At least one for the sauce & another for the cheese wizz. LOL


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## rwoods (Jun 15, 2015)

Bewildered, I am not sure I understand the difference. I think we both agree that there are ways to get most trees to fall differently than there natural direction. The degree to which this can be done varies by tree and the skill of the faller. What the limits are


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## rwoods (Jun 15, 2015)

Bewildered, that explains a lot. I think we both agree that there are ways to get most trees to fall differently than their natural direction and that the degree to which this can be done varies by tree and the skill of the faller. It is beyond me to say what the limits are, but I agree that there are limits.

Gypo is bored with this discussion so I'm done. Otherwise he might not let me in the logging camp he has imagined.

Take care, Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 15, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bewildered, I am not sure I understand the difference. I think we both agree that there are ways to get most trees to fall differently than there natural direction. The degree to which this can be done varies by tree and the skill of the faller. What the limits are


You don't have to be Einstein to have worked out there are some weird & not so wonderful ways to fall a tree, LOL
There are normally three ways of doing things, the right way, the wrong way & the bosses way.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 15, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bewildered, that explains a lot. I think we both agree that there are ways to get most trees to fall differently than their natural direction and that the degree to which this can be done varies by tree and the skill of the faller. It is beyond me to say what the limits are, but I agree that there are limits.
> 
> Gypo is bored with this discussion so I'm done. Otherwise he might not let me in the logging camp he has imagined.
> 
> Take care, Ron


I think I would be game to visit, I still have enough hair for a comb over to cover any scars I may bring back.
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 15, 2015)

As you can see my posting skills aren't much better than my posts. Don't know how that draft post got posted - must be some validation transition thing. Ron


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## weedkilla (Jun 15, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> You don't have to be Einstein to have worked out there are some weird & not so wonderful ways to fall a tree, LOL
> There are normally three ways of doing things, the right way, the wrong way & the bosses way.
> Thansk


That's gold.


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## bitzer (Jun 16, 2015)

You forgot my way. 

Good posts Ron!

I'm done explaining things to those who know better.

Paper airplanes and broom sticks. Impossible.


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## svk (Jun 16, 2015)

I understand what you are saying. It's certainly a few grades above Woodcutting 101 and may be beyond what some can grasp.


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## Bwildered (Jun 16, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You forgot my way.
> 
> Good posts Ron!
> 
> ...


https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/unacceptablepractices.html
What do they know! LOL
Thansk


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 16, 2015)

moondoggie said:


> Joyce Kilmer National Forest???View attachment 430504


Almost makes me want to be a tree hugger.....almost.


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## Moparmyway (Jun 16, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Here's some myth busting you can do yourself, go down to your shed, grab a long handled broom, stick it in the vice upwards with the last inch clamped in it, get a spirit level and lean the broom about a thickness of the handle to one side, now get a hack saw & cut it as if it was a tree with your method & see if you can get it to fall opposite to the way it's leaning, you will be the first person in history to defeat gravity with no other external forces if you do.
> I believe what you guys or girls are doing is cutting near perfectly balanced trees which appear to be leaning, with the soft Dutchman or the very tricky ultra double Dutch Dutchman cut the timber collapses on that side under the butt which then applies a tipping force on the the other side of the butt sending the tree over, the hinge is gone so spinning of the tree is a likely if there are branches on a side more than another.
> Thansk





Bwildered said:


> I was just saving you a walk & costing you an inch of broom handle, in that case go & trim a seeding & try the same thing, report back if you've cracked the impossible defying gravity, LOL
> Thansk





Bwildered said:


> https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/unacceptablepractices.html
> What do they know! LOL
> Thansk



Oops !!
Looks like your last post just prooved that all of your previous posts; saying its impossible were ............. well .................. just wrong


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

Easy, guys, Bwildered is an okay dude. Nothing wrong with him challenging the method described - both the question of does it work and is it safe. I haven't come up with a workable lab test either and using a real tree would just leave us arguing about what it's true balance really was. I do know this to be true and indisputable: the deftness, skill and judgment required for this method is beyond me, and I dare say most every other firewood cutter. 

Bewildered raised a good question as to why this cut would be used instead of wedging. I wonder the same.

Given my day job, I know a little more about bureaucracy and approved methods than cutting. Suffice it to say these don't always get the job done. 90% coverage would be a stretch in most cases.

Ron


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## mdavlee (Jun 16, 2015)

To swing a tree 45-90° that doesn't have much lean a Dutchman is just faster then pounding wedges.


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## mdavlee (Jun 16, 2015)

For your laughing pleasure. A stump from the weekend. We used a big yellow wedge to tip it. It was almost a perfect balance. Dead oak.


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## MustangMike (Jun 16, 2015)

I think the effectiveness of some of these methods will be very dependent on the toughness of the grain in the tree. I appreciate seeing and knowing about these things, but I'll try and stick with more basis stuff.


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

Mike, I was wondering about the multiple staggered cuts Dutchman shown in the video. Looks to me it takes considerable skill and time to make each cut until the tree starts to pinch your bar but stop before you are stuck. Just armchair talk from me; I know the proponents here are skilled and quick. Ron


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

MustangMike said:


> I think the effectiveness of some of these methods will be very dependent on the toughness of the grain in the tree. I appreciate seeing and knowing about these things, but I'll try and stick with more basis stuff.



I skimmed a few things from the videos and discussion: not too much lean or out of balance; big butt trees work the best, small/cone shaped tops and multiple precise cuts.

Ron


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## svk (Jun 16, 2015)

rwoods said:


> I skimmed a few things from the videos and discussion: not too much lean or out of balance; big butt trees work the best, small/cone shaped tops and multiple precise cuts.
> 
> Ron


I think you are right. The theory is a simple one. The execution is a total different story. And trying it on a hollow or partially rotted tree may cause varied results.


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## Bwildered (Jun 16, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Oops !!
> Looks like your last post just prooved that all of your previous posts; saying its impossible were ............. well .................. just wrong


Hardly, but what would do it is the simple test with a leaning broom handle, seedling or sapling. It must be terribly time consuming or expensive to test the theory because nobody has! LOL.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 16, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Easy, guys, Bwildered is an okay dude. Nothing wrong with him challenging the method described - both the question of does it work and is it safe. I haven't come up with a workable lab test either and using a real tree would just leave us arguing about what it's true balance really was. I do know this to be true and indisputable: the deftness, skill and judgment required for this method is beyond me, and I dare say most every other firewood cutter.
> 
> Bewildered raised a good question as to why this cut would be used instead of wedging. I wonder the same.
> 
> ...


You have raised some good points there Ron, it is only a matter of opinion where a tree is leaning & being counterbalanced by limbs etc, there is no manipulation of anything besides external forces that can defy gravity to get a tree to fall 180' opposite to where the C of G is beyond the edge of the stump. 
Thansk


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## mdavlee (Jun 16, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Mike, I was wondering about the multiple staggered cuts Dutchman shown in the video. Looks to me it takes considerable skill and time to make each cut until the tree starts to pinch your bar but stop before you are stuck. Just armchair talk from me; I know the proponents here are skilled and quick. Ron


I've never tried it. If I find a poplar or something like that that don't matter which way it goes I'll try it. I Hope I can video it. Maybe I need to go see slayer a Mike and see if he's got a good specimen to try it on one Saturday.


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

Bwildered, Gypo is for sure going to bar me from his camp now for continuing our conversation but I guess that is a price I will have to pay. 

You are correct that you cannot defy gravity with a cut. But that is not what is going on here. The tree is actually being cut with the lean but in measured increments. Each increment shifts the center of gravity closer to the desired center of gravity. 

Of the tools and techniques discussed so far (pulling a tree over using a cable or rope, pushing it over with machinery, using wedges, and using the disputed multiple cuts), the first three are simply applications of external forces to change the center of gravity to a position that gravity will then pull the tree in the desired direction - no news there as you already know this and have stated as much. The disputed method is using gravity in increments to change the center of gravity. Gravity is simply filling in the void created by the cutting of compression fibers, which in turn moves the center of gravity. If the tree does not begin to sit down with each successive cut then most likely not enough compression fibers have been cut. If enough compression fibers can't be cut without the tree falling in an unintended direction then this method will not work without the addition of some sufficient external force. 

Not a good analogy, but the best I have: You can arrange a series of dominoes on an incline which can cause gravity to be used so to speak "against" itself as the falling pattern goes uphill. Even so, this can't go on infinitely as there are limits due to leverage, resistance and other things beyond my comprehension. In reverse, dominoes on a downhill run can fall infinitely, and will in the process "gain" energy through acceleration within limits. To some degree this is what this method is doing. What trees fit the right prescription for this method is beyond me. 

Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 16, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bwildered, Gypo is for sure going to bar me from his camp now for continuing our conversation but I guess that is a price I will have to pay.
> 
> You are correct that you cannot defy gravity with a cut. But that is not what is going on here. The tree is actually being cut with the lean but in measured increments. Each increment shifts the center of gravity closer to the desired center of gravity.
> 
> ...


You won't find me disagreeing with most of that, the angle of the fall against the lean & C of G with cutting only is what I am truly disputing, 180' is nonsense, 90' is a stretch of the imagination, 70'on a good day with all the stars aligned, 45' all day everyday.
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

Bewildered, what's your cutting environment like in your locale? Mountainous, hilly or flat? Natural areas or managed planting? Highly regulated or pretty much do as you please? 

In the early sixties my dad wanted to move to Australasia. Mom didn't. Enough said. I like to think of downunder as a laid back place, but I assume it depends upon what part just like it does here in North America. 

Ron


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## bitzer (Jun 16, 2015)

Ok I said I was done with this thread, but of course nature presented itself today. I started cutting a new job and came upon this basswood. Normally I would use a regular dutchman and cut the entire far side off and then stick a wedge in the back corner to get it to where I wanted it to go. Using a dutchman instead of a full hinge while wedging in this situation would have allowed the tree to move more freely and at the same time keeps pressure off of the holding wood by keeping the kerf open instead of sitting down. Since this ongoing discussion I decieded to use a soft dutch instead. The top of the tree was over the back some and the tree had some back lean. Of course I didn't take a picture of the tree as it stood, but unless I had about four shots of it with a plumb I don't know that that would have mattered. I also had enough room to make the soft dutch work. In the picture
the green arrow is the intended lay. The black arrow is the lean. The red circle and associated brown scuffing is where the tree sat down. My hand is on the stump to hold the kerf down so you can see where it compressed and cracked the wood as it sat down and came around. Really pictures and video do not do justice to being there and seeing how awesome this is when it works. You can litterally watch it fall into the kerfs. Its also incredibly easy to lose a tree over backwards this way. No its not 180 degrees, but it was close. I have done more. This was a basswood with small limbs. About as close to a conifer as I would get around here.



You can see here in red where I nipped at the front holding wood until it sat out and started to come ahead. This is all watching the top and feeling the kerf and also keeping an eye on the back cut. I did nip the back some to see if it would move ahead. As it sat out it fell into the first kerf then second, etc. The multiple kerfs don't put as much pressure on the holding wood allowing it to bend instead of break. This keeps the tree attached to the stump for the entire swing. Once it started moving I didn't need to nip anymore wood from the back. It was heading right where I wanted it to.





Side shot of the stump.




Laid right in the hole where I wanted it. yes I pulled some wood, but it was mostly out of the side and it cleaned up well enough. I forgot to mention that this tree was leaned up the hill. I wanted it side-hilled


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## HuskStihl (Jun 16, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> You won't find me disagreeing with most of that, the angle of the fall against the lean & C of G with cutting only is what I am truly disputing, 180' is nonsense, 90' is a stretch of the imagination, 70'on a good day with all the stars aligned, 45' all day everyday.
> Thansk


I can "usually" turn small trees leaning directly over a fence 90 degrees so that they miss the fence. We're talking about 10" trees with lots of flex. Went 4 for 4 a few weekends back using only a simple Humboldt and turning from the back and no fence repair. I really don't doubt a skilled faller could turn a tall pine, sweet-gum, or poplar more than 90 degrees from it's lean. I don't think anybody is saying one can make a large, head heavy oak defy gravity, but some species stay on the stump and flex a lot before breaking.


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## bitzer (Jun 16, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> You won't find me disagreeing with most of that, the angle of the fall against the lean & C of G with cutting only is what I am truly disputing, 180' is nonsense, 90' is a stretch of the imagination, 70'on a good day with all the stars aligned, 45' all day everyday.
> Thansk



I do 90 all day on most trees.


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks, bitzer. I can see it in my head but would love to watch it in real time.

Jon, are you turning or swinging? Assuming the former means turning at the stump with the top mostly just rotating and the later means swinging the top. I never thought of the two having different meanings.

Ron


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## bitzer (Jun 16, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Thanks, bitzer. I can see it in my head but would love to watch it in real time.
> 
> Jon, are you turning or swinging? Assuming the former means turning at the stump with the top mostly just rotating and the later means swinging the top. I never thought of the two having different meanings.
> 
> Ron


Thanks Ron! Its been a long time since I've done that because its really not that practical, but it sure is fun. Basically Yer just sawing a bunch of lean into it. Personally turning and swinging are the same to me.


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## weedkilla (Jun 16, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> You won't find me disagreeing with most of that, the angle of the fall against the lean & C of G with cutting only is what I am truly disputing, 180' is nonsense, 90' is a stretch of the imagination, 70'on a good day with all the stars aligned, 45' all day everyday.
> Thansk


All things have limits. It seems you have a good handle on yours, that's what keeps you safe. 

I mostly just post from my phone and only just realised that you list location as 33* sth. Any chance you are an Aussie? If so your point of view is exactly what I have found to be true for most things I cut. There is an exception, and that is radiata pine. You can make those suckers do just about anything you like off the stump. On a 20" stump a hinge 8"x1" will hold until it hits the ground if you leave the face open enough. 

Eucs just won't do it, and I find deciduous trees a crapshoot (although I don't tend be massively good at ID - there are only two types of plants to a weedsprayer, the ones you want alive and the ones you want dead!)


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## HuskStihl (Jun 16, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Thanks, bitzer. I can see it in my head but would love to watch it in real time.
> 
> Jon, are you turning or swinging? Assuming the former means turning at the stump with the top mostly just rotating and the later means swinging the top. I never thought of the two having different meanings.
> 
> Ron


Too hard a question for my small brain. Trees grow across the fence, following the sun. I put in a 40% open Humboldt face parallel to the fence on the downhill side of the tree. Start the back cut on the far side (close to the fence) leaving nearly the entire near side intact. It will move just a bit towards the fence until the pull side starts it turning. Then just kinda "feel" it down trying not to get the saw pinched while "nibbling" the far side until it's in the clear.

Edit: Talking about small 8-10" trees. These really flex well and don't break the hinge


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## svk (Jun 16, 2015)

The last few pages here have had some really good content. Thanks guys.


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## rwoods (Jun 16, 2015)

Jon, I'm sure your brain is bigger than mine. And your falling skills more advanced.

I will likely never forget the first tree I ever intentionally swung. It was a small hardwood I cut as a favor to an elderly couple who had the misfortune of being on the literal cutting edge of a tornado. Long story shorten, I cut several storm ravaged trees for them that afternoon and had asked them both to stay on the front porch so I would know they were out of harm's way. Being full of freshly acquired AS knowledge, I decided to see if I could swing a small (as in too difficult to wedge) hardwood at the side of their house otherwise it was just tall enough to brush the house and mess up some foundation plants. Anyway just as I am in too deep, out the corner of my eye I see the old man has come around the house to watch. He sees the tree moving at about the same instance so he trots as fast as he could to the side and to supposed safety. If it had not been so serious, you would have fallen over laughing. The tree literally appeared to be chasing him and in fact overcame him when he was almost 90 degrees from the natural falling direction. Fortunately the upper branches just slapped him and he wasn't hurt. 

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 17, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Ok I said I was done with this thread, but of course nature presented itself today. I started cutting a new job and came upon this basswood. Normally I would use a regular dutchman and cut the entire far side off and then stick a wedge in the back corner to get it to where I wanted it to go. Using a dutchman instead of a full hinge while wedging in this situation would have allowed the tree to move more freely and at the same time keeps pressure off of the holding wood by keeping the kerf open instead of sitting down. Since this ongoing discussion I decieded to use a soft dutch instead. The top of the tree was over the back some and the tree had some back lean. Of course I didn't take a picture of the tree as it stood, but unless I had about four shots of it with a plumb I don't know that that would have mattered. I also had enough room to make the soft dutch work. In the picture
> the green arrow is the intended lay. The black arrow is the lean. The red circle and associated brown scuffing is where the tree sat down. My hand is on the stump to hold the kerf down so you can see where it compressed and cracked the wood as it sat down and came around. Really pictures and video do not do justice to being there and seeing how awesome this is when it works. You can litterally watch it fall into the kerfs. Its also incredibly easy to lose a tree over backwards this way. No its not 180 degrees, but it was close. I have done more. This was a basswood with small limbs. About as close to a conifer as I would get around here.
> View attachment 431054
> 
> ...


Bitz, what is the fibre pull all about?
Nice job and nice trees. Take things a bit slower. I'll bet you saws, my 385 is faster than your 390.
John


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 17, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Fortunately the upper branches just slapped him and he wasn't hurt.
> 
> Ron


Last time that happened to me I felt like a pervert at a tea party. Lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 17, 2015)

I had to use red bar oil tonight, I feel so dirty now......


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 17, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I had to use red bar oil tonight, I feel so dirty now......


Just say no to the motion lotion. Lol
Here's a great shot of our one and only Bob (Gologit). I like it.
Is that Madhatte waiting so patiently with the liquid refreshment?
Bob is looking pretty buffed for an oldtimer.
John


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

Yer an odd duck John.


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## Bwildered (Jun 17, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bewildered, what's your cutting environment like in your locale? Mountainous, hilly or flat? Natural areas or managed planting? Highly regulated or pretty much do as you please?
> 
> In the early sixties my dad wanted to move to Australasia. Mom didn't. Enough said. I like to think of downunder as a laid back place, but I assume it depends upon what part just like it does here in North America.
> 
> Ron


It's about as mountainous & steep as it gets anywhere along the coastal ranges, it rises to 1600 meters 50 Klms from the ocean, we have averaged 3.5 meters of rainfall a year for the last 10 years, southerly slopes & gullies are usually wet rainforest, ridges & northerly slopes are dryer with tall forests, coastal plains are dryer normally with open forest to within a few hundred meters of the ocean, quite a few plantations of select fast growing species, forestry is fairly well regulated on public lands for safety, PP you can vertually do what you like until an injury or death occurs & then they will swoop on you followed by the ambulance chasers, if your negligent in your duty of care & do something that kills someone its up to 2 years sharing a small space with a menacing fellow called bubba who likes the top bunk.
Apparently there is an ice epidemic happening which is gripping the bogans & sends them troppo.
Up untill around 25 years ago they were logging some trees that couldn't be snigged with a D8, they would doze a trench beside the log, back the jinker in & roll the log onto the trailer.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 17, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> All things have limits. It seems you have a good handle on yours, that's what keeps you safe.
> 
> I mostly just post from my phone and only just realised that you list location as 33* sth. Any chance you are an Aussie? If so your point of view is exactly what I have found to be true for most things I cut. There is an exception, and that is radiata pine. You can make those suckers do just about anything you like off the stump. On a 20" stump a hinge 8"x1" will hold until it hits the ground if you leave the face open enough.
> 
> Eucs just won't do it, and I find deciduous trees a crapshoot (although I don't tend be massively good at ID - there are only two types of plants to a weedsprayer, the ones you want alive and the ones you want dead!)


Yes in straya, Ive cut only a handful of pines, but never noticed anything out of the ordinary with then, unlike spotted, flooded & water gum which are flexible in log form beyond belief.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 17, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Ok I said I was done with this thread, but of course nature presented itself today. I started cutting a new job and came upon this basswood. Normally I would use a regular dutchman and cut the entire far side off and then stick a wedge in the back corner to get it to where I wanted it to go. Using a dutchman instead of a full hinge while wedging in this situation would have allowed the tree to move more freely and at the same time keeps pressure off of the holding wood by keeping the kerf open instead of sitting down. Since this ongoing discussion I decieded to use a soft dutch instead. The top of the tree was over the back some and the tree had some back lean. Of course I didn't take a picture of the tree as it stood, but unless I had about four shots of it with a plumb I don't know that that would have mattered. I also had enough room to make the soft dutch work. In the picture
> the green arrow is the intended lay. The black arrow is the lean. The red circle and associated brown scuffing is where the tree sat down. My hand is on the stump to hold the kerf down so you can see where it compressed and cracked the wood as it sat down and came around. Really pictures and video do not do justice to being there and seeing how awesome this is when it works. You can litterally watch it fall into the kerfs. Its also incredibly easy to lose a tree over backwards this way. No its not 180 degrees, but it was close. I have done more. This was a basswood with small limbs. About as close to a conifer as I would get around here.
> View attachment 431054
> 
> ...



In your pic #1 I think you have just have over estimated the direction of the lean, if the lean & weight was actually where you say it was the tree would have gone over & swung around the 2 to 3 o'clock position as soon as the hinge holding wood was cut in the 7 o'clock position, the weight of the tree was actually wanting to lay in the 7 to 8 o'clock direction which is why it closed up when cut. I reckon you got a good 70' to 80' out of it though.
Thansk


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## Creeker (Jun 17, 2015)

Gosford/Newcastle.


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## Moparmyway (Jun 17, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Ok I said I was done with this thread, but of course nature presented itself today. I started cutting a new job and came upon this basswood. Normally I would use a regular dutchman and cut the entire far side off and then stick a wedge in the back corner to get it to where I wanted it to go. Using a dutchman instead of a full hinge while wedging in this situation would have allowed the tree to move more freely and at the same time keeps pressure off of the holding wood by keeping the kerf open instead of sitting down. Since this ongoing discussion I decieded to use a soft dutch instead. The top of the tree was over the back some and the tree had some back lean. Of course I didn't take a picture of the tree as it stood, but unless I had about four shots of it with a plumb I don't know that that would have mattered. I also had enough room to make the soft dutch work. In the picture
> the green arrow is the intended lay. The black arrow is the lean. The red circle and associated brown scuffing is where the tree sat down. My hand is on the stump to hold the kerf down so you can see where it compressed and cracked the wood as it sat down and came around. Really pictures and video do not do justice to being there and seeing how awesome this is when it works. You can litterally watch it fall into the kerfs. Its also incredibly easy to lose a tree over backwards this way. No its not 180 degrees, but it was close. I have done more. This was a basswood with small limbs. About as close to a conifer as I would get around here.
> View attachment 431054
> 
> ...



WOW ........................ What a GREAT post !!!!!


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## HuskStihl (Jun 17, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 431086
> 
> 
> Bob is looking pretty buffed for an oldtimer.
> John


Prolly the 50+ years of pretending to be a logger


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## Big_Wood (Jun 17, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Prolly the 50+ years of pretending to be a logger



i don't think i ever heard anyone say gologit wasn't a logger. i do remember someone saying he seemed more like a machine operator though  still a logger.


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## rwoods (Jun 17, 2015)

Bewildered,

I would love to visit your country some day. 

Ron



westcoaster90 said:


> i don't think i ever heard anyone say gologit wasn't a logger. i do remember someone saying he seemed more like a machine operator though  still a logger.



In a weak moment, Gypo posted during one of those lack of pictures arguments:



Gypo Logger said:


> It's too bad you're not big enough of a man to wear anything that smacks of the woods. Please rat me out Bob as you've done so many others. You are no more a logger than flying to the moon and back.



Ron


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## rwoods (Jun 17, 2015)

BTW, Gypo. I don't think I want to arm wrestle Bob or you. Would be interesting to watch the two of you though. I wonder what the odds would be. Who's the AS bookie? Ron


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

Obviously this is beyond you bewildered. I judge leans every day. The holding wood kept it on the stump. You see where the crack is at? When you're citing osha for references then I know where you are at. I bet you follow speed limits too? At this point I think you could be standing right next to me as I cut and tell me I'm wrong. Maybe you should start playing around with swinging small trees. You might be surprised how far you can make one go.


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> WOW ........................ What a GREAT post !!!!!


Thank you sir!


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## Bwildered (Jun 17, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Obviously this is beyond you bewildered. I judge leans every day. The holding wood kept it on the stump. You see where the crack is at? When you're citing osha for references then I know where you are at. I bet you follow speed limits too? At this point I think you could be standing right next to me as I cut and tell me I'm wrong. Maybe you should start playing around with swinging small trees. You might be surprised how far you can make one go.


The tree tells where it is leaning by the tension & compression, I'm easily fooled but gravity can't be. If the tree didn't fall when the hinge was cut at 7 o'clock then it wasn't leaning in the direction you claim or was in balance enough not to fall, no lean to the left or right of the holding wood through to the other side of the stump indicates the line of the lean, it can't get any simpler than that, I'm actually cutting poles at the moment & will take some pics today after I make a delivery & get time. I just quoted your govt regulations because they are the very similar to ours which indicate that method of cutting and its problems & non acceptance in the industry, you can cut anyway you please & accept all the added risks that go along with it, after all it's a free world in your own world.
Thansk


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## weedkilla (Jun 17, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> It's about as mountainous & steep as it gets anywhere along the coastal ranges, it rises to 1600 meters 50 Klms from the ocean, we have averaged 3.5 meters of rainfall a year for the last 10 years, southerly slopes & gullies are usually wet rainforest, ridges & northerly slopes are dryer with tall forests, coastal plains are dryer normally with open forest to within a few hundred meters of the ocean, quite a few plantations of select fast growing species, forestry is fairly well regulated on public lands for safety, PP you can vertually do what you like until an injury or death occurs & then they will swoop on you followed by the ambulance chasers, if your negligent in your duty of care & do something that kills someone its up to 2 years sharing a small space with a menacing fellow called bubba who likes the top bunk.
> Apparently there is an ice epidemic happening which is gripping the bogans & sends them troppo.
> Up untill around 25 years ago they were logging some trees that couldn't be snigged with a D8, they would doze a trench beside the log, back the jinker in & roll the log onto the trailer.
> Thansk


Hmmmm. Otways? One of my favourite parts of the world.


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## super3 (Jun 17, 2015)

I don't try to explain how to swing a tree.

To those who understand.........No explanation is needed.

To those who don't.........No explanation is possible.


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## Bwildered (Jun 17, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Hmmmm. Otways? One of my favourite parts of the world.


That's way way south of 33'
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 17, 2015)

super3 said:


> I don't try to explain how to swing a tree.
> 
> To those who understand.........No explanation is needed.
> 
> To those who don't.........No explanation is possible.


Perhaps we should hand it over to the world famous Australian produced organisation which blows these things right out of the water "mythbusters"
Thansk


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## weedkilla (Jun 17, 2015)




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## Deets066 (Jun 17, 2015)




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## Deets066 (Jun 17, 2015)

Don't know if this has been posted here or not, wonder if this would work in hardwood?


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## weedkilla (Jun 17, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Don't know if this has been posted here or not, wonder if this would work in hardwood?


It works. It's just an easy one to f-up. 

Basically you need a wedge with a fast taper and don't expect to lift much. 
If the wedge doesn't taper fast enough and you hammer it too far through its really easy to break the hinge before the tree lifts up and over. 

Thing is you only use it on trees too small to wedge the normal way, so it's also really easy to end up with too much wedge under the hinge - and the hinge snapping. 
All in all its about as useful as a felling lever, but slower and easier to f-up.

Does that make sense the way I explained it?


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## Deets066 (Jun 17, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> It works. It's just an easy one to f-up.
> 
> Basically you need a wedge with a fast taper and don't expect to lift much.
> If the wedge doesn't taper fast enough and you hammer it too far through its really easy to break the hinge before the tree lifts up and over.
> ...


I smell what your steppin in


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## Creeker (Jun 17, 2015)

It's good for accurate direction, in confined spaces, and if done leaving enough hinge wood will push a slight back leaner the opposite direction.

I always do the bore cut first, then scarf the front.

Yep, works fine in Eucs.


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> The tree tells where it is leaning by the tension & compression, I'm easily fooled but gravity can't be. If the tree didn't fall when the hinge was cut at 7 o'clock then it wasn't leaning in the direction you claim or was in balance enough not to fall, no lean to the left or right of the holding wood through to the other side of the stump indicates the line of the lean, it can't get any simpler than that, I'm actually cutting poles at the moment & will take some pics today after I make a delivery & get time. I just quoted your govt regulations because they are the very similar to ours which indicate that method of cutting and its problems & non acceptance in the industry, you can cut anyway you please & accept all the added risks that go along with it, after all it's a free world in your own world.
> Thansk


What happens when a tree is leaning 90 degrees from the intentinal lay and you keep a full hinge? Assuming the top is perfectly balanced and has no factor.


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## bitzer (Jun 17, 2015)

On small dbh timber: back cut first, tap wedge, face, tap wedge till tips. A 10" wedge can fall a ten inch tree. You don't need anything fancy.


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## rwoods (Jun 17, 2015)

This has certainly been exhausting. Another day given to swing a tree, or not. 

Gypo is awful quiet today, I guess he is in his wilderness la-bore-a-tory experimenting with different cuts and leans.  

Ron


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## svk (Jun 17, 2015)

rwoods said:


> This has certainly been exhausting. Another day given to swing a tree, or not.
> 
> Gypo is awful quiet today, I guess he is in his wilderness la-bore-a-tory experimenting with different cuts and leans.
> 
> Ron


Do you think he is using broom sticks or real trees lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

rwoods said:


> BTW, Gypo. I don't think I want to arm wrestle Bob or you. Would be interesting to watch the two of you though. I wonder what the odds would be. Who's the AS bookie? Ron


From the looks of things Bob would probably pound me like a cheap steak. I also have the added advantage of being able to run faster scared than I can mad. Lol
Sometimes all it takes is just a simple turn of the cheek.
John


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## Big_Wood (Jun 18, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Good thing Dad was there! Lol




isn't it neat how he's gotta go and grab his bar tip without the chain brake on to be sure he's gonna line up and not cut to far LOL wish i thought of that. must be a top secret way to verify everything is going as planned. i'll have to try it.


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## pdqdl (Jun 18, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> View attachment 431243



Dammit. I was going to post that.


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## Westboastfaller (Jun 18, 2015)

I read a few pages and random posts but 36 pages will be 72 pages by the time I get there. (Read later for a pass time)
Ive cut lots of cottonwood, aspen birch,softwoods.

#1) The strongest fibers are by the roots. When I think I need to I make the cut right to the duff (as low as possible). Conventional because I can get lower and I can use a "Johnny hold me tight" easier with the conventional and round chisel. You may not need a realy low cut but its extra security providing there is no low rot.
Once you have your undercut cleaned up; no bypass cuts(Blind Dutchman) then take a series of thin cuts out of the flat cut of the conventional. Keep them thin, no bigger than 3/8 " above the kurf so you can turn the saw in the cut and break them with your bar easily. Do it 3 or 4 times and clean it up so you now have a third angle that will be about an 1/12 to 2 inches. Cuts got to be even on the third vertical angle in the undercut or you'd be cutting through the vertical wall and defeating the purpose.
So you are releasing the fibers this way so there can peal and holds on a lot longer. Its a very easy cut and works amazingly. It can save you a lot of work. I've used it a lot falling livewire. and Danger Tree Falling of edge of right of ways,product with retention falling.
If you don't need such a low cut you can just bore the vertical cut in. Its easier to do if you do the bore cut first
then under cut into the bore but that something to practice on stumps first but always take a knee to aviod the kickback.
The problem with JUST leaving more meat on the tention side is it still won't go where you aim It. It will start to but the fibers have nowhere to go and break so you will lose a few degrees or possibly a lot depending on the weight.
I used to just turn the undercut further to compensate. Sometimes it would work or sometimes you get root pull from stalling the swing too much. It dose happen
when you 'push the tention'. Try escape with your eyes both full of dirt from a root pull, just about knocked myself out a few feet from the stump once.


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## Moparmyway (Jun 18, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> Once you have your undercut cleaned up, no bypass cuts
> (Blind Dutchman) then take a series of thin cuts out of the flat cut in the conventional. Keep them thin no bigger than 3/8 above the kurf so you can turn the saw in the cut and break them with your bar. Do it 3 or 4 times and clean it up so you now have a third angle that will be about an 1/12 to 2 inches. Cuts got to be even on the third vertical angle in the undercut or you'd be cutting through the vertical wall and defeating the purpose.
> So you are releasing the fibers this way and holds on a lot longer. Its a very easy cut and works amazing. It can save you a lot of work.



Pics ?


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## Bwildered (Jun 18, 2015)

bitzer said:


> What happens when a tree is leaning 90 degrees from the intentinal lay and you keep a full hinge? Assuming the top is perfectly balanced and has no factor.


Normal belly cut 90' to the lean, normal back cut, wedge tapped in when possible, taper the hinge to almost nothing on the lean side. Drive the wedge in & over it will go. You can have full hinge but it makes it harder to wedge over, the more pronounced the lean is means 90' won't be achieved, a hard leaner you might be lucky to get 45' from the lean because the stresses are just too much for the fibres while bending in the hinge & they break or pull a lot earlier, so you wouldn't attempt a 90' belly cut in those situations as it just ruins the butt of the log from fibre pull, better off just cutting at 45' anyway & boring to a strap so it doesn't slab up.
Thansk


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## HuskStihl (Jun 18, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> I read a few pages and random posts but 36 pages will be 72 pages by the time I get there. ?Read later for a pass time)
> Ive cut lots of cottonwood, aspen birch,softwoods.
> 
> #1) The strongest fibers are by the roots. When I think I need to I make the cut right to the duff (as low as possible. Conventional because I can get lower and I can use a "Johnny hold me tight" easier with the conventional and round chisel. You may not need a realy low cut but its extra security providing there is no low rot.
> ...


Sounds almost like a root pull Siz! A Bitz specialty BTW


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## rwoods (Jun 18, 2015)

Gypo, I understand your position. I usually back the underdog. 

Maybe you can organize a camp-wide tree turning/ swinging contest in lieu of the arm wrestling. Ron


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## Marshy (Jun 18, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Gypo, I understand your position. I usually back the underdog.
> 
> Maybe you can organize a camp-wide tree turning/ swinging contest in lieu of the arm wrestling. Ron


Bunch of weirdos here wanting to hang around camp talking about who can swing their wood the farthest. I think I'll pass.


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## Bwildered (Jun 18, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Bunch of weirdos here wanting to hang around camp talking about who can swing their wood the farthest. I think I'll pass.


It would make a welcome change from the usual public bar polishing comparisons & oils that facilitate all manner of fetishes, some new bromances could even be started!
Thansk


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## Marshy (Jun 18, 2015)

I think they already exist.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 18, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Bunch of weirdos here wanting to hang around camp talking about who can swing their wood the farthest. I think I'll pass.


Pic's ?


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## Westboastfaller (Jun 18, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Pics ?


Yes I could do something like that.
mabye a vid if you're realy good...lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 18, 2015)

I like to strip my wood .........Naked


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

My 2100 reminds me of this song.


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## rwoods (Jun 18, 2015)

Thanks, Gypo, for turning the thread. Only you would have thought to enlist the Boss to help.  Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

Another dump find with not too many issues.281


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## Big_Wood (Jun 18, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Another dump find with not too many issues.281View attachment 431406



pic ain't work'n for me john


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> pic ain't work'n for me john


Seems to work on this end. Maybe you have a virus. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 18, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I like to strip my wood .........Naked
> View attachment 431327


Cedar no doubt. That bark rolled like a roll of paper towels. Lol


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## Big_Wood (Jun 18, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Seems to work on this end. Maybe you have a virus. Lol



maybe aye, brian's pic doesn't even work for me


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## Big_Wood (Jun 18, 2015)

what's messed up is if i look at this thread not signed in i can see the pics but can't when i am signed in. that's some wack **** right there. members with fewer privileges then guests


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## weedkilla (Jun 19, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> what's messed up is if i look at this thread not signed in i can see the pics but can't when i am signed in. that's some wack **** right there. members with fewer privileges then guests


Apparently just some members. 

What did you do, buy an echo?


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## Big_Wood (Jun 19, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Apparently just some members.
> 
> What did you do, buy an echo?


 for stirring up **** right there, i had to like your post LOL no i did not buy an echo. only echo's i like are their top handles. power to weight isn't there for their larger models.


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## RedFir Down (Jun 19, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Another dump find with not too many issues.281View attachment 431406


Gotta love the oldie but goodies!
They probably scraped it the last time they tried to start it and the rope handle came through there hands and cut the hell out of there finger... Ya gotta want it!


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## bitzer (Jun 19, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Normal belly cut 90' to the lean, normal back cut, wedge tapped in when possible, taper the hinge to almost nothing on the lean side. Drive the wedge in & over it will go. You can have full hinge but it makes it harder to wedge over, the more pronounced the lean is means 90' won't be achieved, a hard leaner you might be lucky to get 45' from the lean because the stresses are just too much for the fibres while bending in the hinge & they break or pull a lot earlier, so you wouldn't attempt a 90' belly cut in those situations as it just ruins the butt of the log from fibre pull, better off just cutting at 45' anyway & boring to a strap so it doesn't slab up.
> Thansk



I didn't say what do you do I said what happens. It just sits there right without any outside forces? Now what if you could put in a 60 percent+ deep face thereby changing the center of gravity. What would happen then?


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## Bwildered (Jun 19, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I didn't say what do you do I said what happens. It just sits there right without any outside forces? Now what if you could put in a 60 percent+ deep face thereby changing the center of gravity. What would happen then?


Well that is what happens when I'm doing it, if I was to do it your way the hinge holding wood would have been over cut from the under side of the belly, one puff of wind or a miscalculation of lean or cut & it could get dangerous, plus pinch, bend the bar or worse lose a saw, plus if it really goes wrong I couldnt bear the thought of being found negligent by an ambulance chaser by partaking in a unacceptable practice, then losing the house, the kids, the car & everything Ive worked my whole life for. It's a no brainer to use a wedge & permissable methods, but back to getting a tree to go over 180' to the lean with nothing but cutting (with no offence) is utter BS.
I'd like to know how many saws, bars or lives are lost trying to master it? Even cutting the normal safe way the occasional bar is pinched & bent from a miscalculation.
These days I normally cut on my own & my dozer is parked no more than 10 metres from the tree I'm cutting, so it also pays not to do things that can end up being very expensive & to answer your question, it's not going to happen. There is an old Chinese proverb that goes like "man who fly upside down is bound to have massive crack up" LOL
Thansk


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## Moparmyway (Jun 19, 2015)

super3 said:


> I don't try to explain how to swing a tree.
> 
> To those who understand.........No explanation is needed.
> 
> To those who don't.........No explanation is possible.


Cause it is sooooo true ! Thats why !!!!


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 19, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Another dump find with not too many issues.281View attachment 431406


When out fishing ,that looks like one i would throw back in


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## pdqdl (Jun 19, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> I read a few pages and random posts but 36 pages will be 72 pages by the time I get there. (Read later for a pass time)
> Ive cut lots of cottonwood, aspen birch,softwoods.
> 
> #1) The strongest fibers are by the roots. When I think I need to I make the cut right to the duff (as low as possible). Conventional because I can get lower and I can use a "Johnny hold me tight" easier with the conventional and round chisel. You may not need a realy low cut but its extra security providing there is no low rot.
> ...



I think you are describing a technique that I am not familiar with. Unfortunately, our industry does not seem to have a standardized language for all the various cuts, so I really don't know what you are describing.

Can you maybe post some pictures, or perhaps some definitions as to what you are calling the "undercut", "bypass cut", "flat cut of the conventional"?

I am genuinely interested; I only wish to fully understand your post. I am not picking any fights nor am I trolling you.


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## Bwildered (Jun 19, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Cause it is sooooo true ! Thats why !!!!


We all saw it on the internet so it must be true. LOL
Thansk


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## bnmc98 (Jun 19, 2015)

The interesting thing about reality is that it is real even if those who don't believe it say it isn't real. I swing trees all the time. Just how bitzer explained. Sometimes with a few modifications.


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## svk (Jun 19, 2015)

The reason why osha says not to do it is because 95% of chainsaw owners can't properly execute it.


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## bnmc98 (Jun 19, 2015)

svk said:


> The reason why osha says not to do it is because 95% of chainsaw owners can't properly execute it.



LOL. 99% don't need to.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 19, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> LOL. 99% don't need to.


99% of trees dont need to be swung and the other 1% is just showboating. Lol


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## Bwildered (Jun 20, 2015)

svk said:


> The reason why osha says not to do it is because 95% of chainsaw owners can't properly execute it.


From what I've seen your osha is the same as our workcover, they aren't really concerned about joe public, they are however really concerned about how safely industry conducts its self & the unsuspecting mugs walking past that could be hurt from their actions.
Thansk


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## svk (Jun 20, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> From what I've seen your osha is the same as our workcover, they aren't really concerned about joe public, they are however really concerned about how safely industry conducts its self & the unsuspecting mugs walking past that could be hurt from their actions.
> Thansk


What started as something to improve workplace safety conditions had ended up as another bloated bureaucracy (big shock). It's one of those things where if you get in the wrong side of an aggressive inspector your workplace could be shut down for just about anything.


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## bitzer (Jun 20, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Well that is what happens when I'm doing it, if I was to do it your way the hinge holding wood would have been over cut from the under side of the belly, one puff of wind or a miscalculation of lean or cut & it could get dangerous, plus pinch, bend the bar or worse lose a saw, plus if it really goes wrong I couldnt bear the thought of being found negligent by an ambulance chaser by partaking in a unacceptable practice, then losing the house, the kids, the car & everything Ive worked my whole life for. It's a no brainer to use a wedge & permissable methods, but back to getting a tree to go over 180' to the lean with nothing but cutting (with no offence) is utter BS.
> I'd like to know how many saws, bars or lives are lost trying to master it? Even cutting the normal safe way the occasional bar is pinched & bent from a miscalculation.
> These days I normally cut on my own & my dozer is parked no more than 10 metres from the tree I'm cutting, so it also pays not to do things that can end up being very expensive & to answer your question, it's not going to happen. There is an old Chinese proverb that goes like "man who fly upside down is bound to have massive crack up" LOL
> Thansk


I get it man. I've got five kids, my wife doesn't work and its my buisness. My forwader, my saws, all on my dime. If I break something it comes out of my profits. I get it. I rarely ever use a soft dutchman because it can be slow and is generally umpractical in a typical production setting. I would just wedge it and get it over with or swing it if its 90 degrees or less. Swinging trees really does save time if yer not trying to fight nature too much. You need to know what you can get away with and when. When you mentioned a tapered hinge thats basically what you're doing anyway, but if you cut that far side off instead of keeping it really thin it works better. I work alone and I'm the sole support of my family. If I'm not completely confident in what I'm doing I will re-assess the situation. I've already mentioned all of this previously in this thread. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I really think you should try swinging some little trees. You will be surprised. I wouldn't park that machine within a tree length either, just to be sure. Wood could be rotten and break off, gust of wind, whatever. Dumping trees on equipment gets expensive I hear.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 20, 2015)

What is going on in this picture?


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## rwoods (Jun 20, 2015)

Getting ready to change tires? I once hung a FJ40 (not the one in my avatar) from an oak to repair a broken birfield. Otherwise it would still be sitting on the hillside where the axle let loose and jammed the steering. Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 20, 2015)

No, but that's a good idea if you trust the hold position on the winch. Lol


rwoods said:


> Getting ready to change tires? I once hung a FJ40 (not the one in my avatar) from an oak to repair a broken birfield. Otherwise it would still be sitting on the hillside where the axle let loose and jammed the steering. Ron


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## rwoods (Jun 20, 2015)

Mine was a worm drive and holding a much lighter load. 

So what's going on? Harvesting chains from the ultra rare choker tree? It looks like it could have been wrapped higher up, if it is a pull point. Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 20, 2015)

The chain wasnt for pulling. Most hardwoods have large crowns and some species will shatter from crown to butt when they hit the ground, reducing a veneer log to firewood. So i chained it with a load binder at 17' some odd feet. Its not easy standing on a ladder with a snipe trying to close the binder. As added insurance I sawed off all holding wood once the tree was commited so it would roll in hope that both double crowns hit the ground at the same time thus preventing shatter


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## rwoods (Jun 20, 2015)

Gypo, as I have illustrated many times I don't know much about logging but I do know that at one time here a single quality veneer log was worth many saw logs - they are worth a little extra effort. Ron


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## mdavlee (Jun 20, 2015)

I've heard of guys having them topped by climbers to try to save them out.


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## Cope1024 (Jun 20, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Another dump find with too many issues.281View attachment 431406



There, fixed it for you!


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## Bwildered (Jun 20, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I get it man. I've got five kids, my wife doesn't work and its my buisness. My forwader, my saws, all on my dime. If I break something it comes out of my profits. I get it. I rarely ever use a soft dutchman because it can be slow and is generally umpractical in a typical production setting. I would just wedge it and get it over with or swing it if its 90 degrees or less. Swinging trees really does save time if yer not trying to fight nature too much. You need to know what you can get away with and when. When you mentioned a tapered hinge thats basically what you're doing anyway, but if you cut that far side off instead of keeping it really thin it works better. I work alone and I'm the sole support of my family. If I'm not completely confident in what I'm doing I will re-assess the situation. I've already mentioned all of this previously in this thread. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I really think you should try swinging some little trees. You will be surprised. I wouldn't park that machine within a tree length either, just to be sure. Wood could be rotten and break off, gust of wind, whatever. Dumping trees on equipment gets expensive I hear.


Our timber is up to 3 x the strength of yours so a full hinge will hold it from going anywhere but perpendicular to the line of the hinge in any conditions, it would be extremely rare to cut a tree with any rot or punk in it for a sawlog, they are left for habitat or cohort trees, having a machine that close is not for the inexperienced, but behind the line of fall at 45' is a safe bet for me & in steep country I would have the cable around it before finishing the back cut because they can slide a good 20 m down from the stump. 
Thansk


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## pdqdl (Jun 20, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> The chain wasnt for pulling. Most hardwoods have large crowns and some species will shatter from crown to butt when they hit the ground, reducing a veneer log to firewood. So i chained it with a load binder at 17' some odd feet. Its not easy standing on a ladder with a snipe trying to close the binder. As added insurance I sawed off all holding wood once the tree was commited so it would roll in hope that both double crowns hit the ground at the same time thus preventing shatter



If it is that important, why don't you just climb up and cut out the top? If you are just topping them, that is probably faster than dinking around with the chains. After all, you will end up cutting off the top after it gets to the ground anyway, so you are not losing any chainsaw time.

What kind of tree was that; it looks like a hackberry, but I don't think they grow that far north.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 20, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> If it is that important, why don't you just climb up and cut out the top? If you are just topping them, that is probably faster than dinking around with the chains. After all, you will end up cutting off the top after it gets to the ground anyway, so you are not losing any chainsaw time.
> 
> What kind of tree was that; it looks like a hackberry, but I don't think they grow that far north.


Im not a climber and topping it is beyond my experience. It was a 2500$ cherry, so I did what I thought best to save it.
John


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## treesmith (Jun 20, 2015)

This is a good read, though it relates mainly to US softwood, I'm not sure how applicable it is to aussie gums. Techniques are very interesting, we do get big radiata pine and cypress here


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 20, 2015)

This is a good one too. It is mostly for BC fallers, but lots of good info.


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## bitzer (Jun 21, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Our timber is up to 3 x the strength of yours so a full hinge will hold it from going anywhere but perpendicular to the line of the hinge in any conditions, it would be extremely rare to cut a tree with any rot or punk in it for a sawlog, they are left for habitat or cohort trees, having a machine that close is not for the inexperienced, but behind the line of fall at 45' is a safe bet for me & in steep country I would have the cable around it before finishing the back cut because they can slide a good 20 m down from the stump.
> Thansk


How do you know how strong the wood I cut is? You never cut timber that has butt rot, say in a swamp or old timber? You choke a tree thats going to slide 60+ feet? The more you talk the more I can tell you're inexperienced or just full of ****.


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## bitzer (Jun 21, 2015)

The wood can still split chained John. Thats just smoke and mirrors. You could purposely hang it up and drag it down if you were that worried about it.


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## Deets066 (Jun 21, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> I've heard of guys having them topped by climbers to try to save them out.


I have a 30" walnut in my timber that I need to top out before I fall it. It's much taller than all the surrounding trees and would be a very nice veneer log, it's 28' to the first branch.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The wood can still split chained John. Thats just smoke and mirrors. You could purposely hang it up and drag it down if you were that worried about it.


Ya, but it's a lot harder to chain a tree below the crown when it's hung. Much easier and safer when it's still on the stump.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I have a 30" walnut in my timber that I need to top out before I fall it. It's much taller than all the surrounding trees and would be a very nice veneer log, it's 28' to the first branch.


Dont cut it down unless you really, really need the money. It's worth more on the stump in lots of ways.
I sure wish I had a tree like that, that I could call my own.


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## Deets066 (Jun 21, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Dont cut it down unless you really, really need the money. It's worth more on the stump in lots of ways.
> I sure wish I had a tree like that, that I could call my own.


A good friend of mine has been in the milling and wood processing business for 30 years, he looked at it 4 years ago. He told me it was worth between $3,500 - $4,000.
I don't have any intentions of taking it down yet, but maybe someday


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

Plus you will get hosed when you sell it, unless of course you consult with me first. Lol.
Can you get us a pic of the tree with someone with a tape around it?
Not doubting you, it's just that I like walnut, however Ive only cut about one logging truck load of the stuff since I started in the hardwood.


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## Deets066 (Jun 21, 2015)

Yeah, probably tomorrow. This one has a nice log in it, but I have seen bigger. My buddy with the mill bought a huge walnut log, only to find a big black streak run up through the center where a piece of steel was


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## Big_Wood (Jun 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> A good friend of mine has been in the milling and wood processing business for 30 years, he looked at it 4 years ago. He told me it was worth between $3,500 - $4,000.
> I don't have any intentions of taking it down yet, but maybe someday



not worth taking it down. some of the old growth spruce around here are worth up to $70,000 in raw log form.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> Yeah, probably tomorrow. This one has a nice log in it, but I have seen bigger. My buddy with the mill bought a huge walnut log, only to find a big black streak run up through the center where a piece of steel was


Most mills and log buyers wont buy City trees.


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## Bwildered (Jun 21, 2015)

bitzer said:


> How do you know how strong the wood I cut is? You never cut timber that has butt rot, say in a swamp or old timber? You choke a tree thats going to slide 60+ feet? The more you talk the more I can tell you're inexperienced or just full of ****.


If I'm cutting ironbark it has a modulus of elasticity (ME) (bending stress) commonly of up to 35 Gpa, say your cutting oak of some kind its ME ranges between 12 to 15 Gpa, say your cutting pine it can go down to a ME of 6 Gpa, 3 x was not a bad guess I suppose.
I do on the rare occasion do sometimes cut dead standing timber with rot, pipes, punk, lighting struck etc, but fortunately no swamps. When I'm doing that I'll walk the last tree length because they can be unpredictable. I dropped one a few years back that was 60 m3 of log to the first branch, that's 24,000 bf in your language.
How Id wish to work on flat ground all the time & not have any idea of how to save a trip up & down to hook a log up, or if I had 3 hands to carry an axe, saw & the cable down I wouldn't have to worry about it! When possible I will snig the log up head & all to the stump so I don't have to go over the edge at all!
Your showing the narrowness of your experience. LOL
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 21, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 431728
> This is a good one too. It is mostly for BC fallers, but lots of good info.


What did those publications have to say about the soft Dutchman?
Thansk


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## Deets066 (Jun 21, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Most mills and log buyers wont buy City trees.


He usually doesn't, he told me he couldn't resist though lol.


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## square1 (Jun 21, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Im not a climber and topping it is beyond my experience.


Right there is the difference between a emergency room visit and a productive day in the woods. Recognizing one's limitations.


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## bitzer (Jun 21, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> If I'm cutting ironbark it has a modulus of elasticity (ME) (bending stress) commonly of up to 35 Gpa, say your cutting oak of some kind its ME ranges between 12 to 15 Gpa, say your cutting pine it can go down to a ME of 6 Gpa, 3 x was not a bad guess I suppose.
> I do on the rare occasion do sometimes cut dead standing timber with rot, pipes, punk, lighting struck etc, but fortunately no swamps. When I'm doing that I'll walk the last tree length because they can be unpredictable. I dropped one a few years back that was 60 m3 of log to the first branch, that's 24,000 bf in your language.
> How Id wish to work on flat ground all the time & not have any idea of how to save a trip up & down to hook a log up, or if I had 3 hands to carry an axe, saw & the cable down I wouldn't have to worry about it! When possible I will snig the log up head & all to the stump so I don't have to go over the edge at all!
> Your showing the narrowness of your experience. LOL
> Thansk




Typically you cut first, then get the equipment in. 24,ooo bf huh? So like an 8-10 foot diamter tree with 100 feet of log? How big is your dozer? If your tree is more elsatic you should be able to swing it even farther.


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## MustangMike (Jun 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> He usually doesn't, he told me he couldn't resist though lol.



My advice, strike while the iron is hot. I could tell you stories of people who waited, and the trees got rot, and on my own 50 acres, I lost about 40% of my trees to a tornado, and since then it seems storms are dropping the remaining trees faster than they are growing! A bird in the hand ....

Good Luck with it.


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The wood can still split chained John. Thats just smoke and mirrors. You could purposely hang it up and drag it down if you were that worried about it.



That's a damn good idea. I never thought of that.

_There sure are lot of different perspectives here at AS. Pity there isn't more tolerance for the strange_ _notions that some folks have._


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

Deliberate hangs ups do work in some situations,but they can lock together like deer antlers do during the rut.
Try to winch down a tree that is locked into another. If you can winch it down at all it generally will uproot the tree it is hung in. A very dangerous situation to be in.


pdqdl said:


> That's a damn good idea. I never thought of that.
> 
> _There sure are lot of different perspectives here at AS. Pity there isn't more tolerance for the strange_ _notions that some folks have._


----------



## rwoods (Jun 21, 2015)

Just some more of my useless armchair comments:

Gypo, how do you get that chain tight enough to prevent a split? Do you double wrap it before binding so you have 360 degree compression.

Bitzer & Bwildered, you guys aren't going to agree except maybe that some pine has more elasticity than other species. I would be pleased to watch either one of you at work to learn something useful. For sure, I'll stand a good tree length away when Bitzer demonstrates a soft Dutchman and stand much further away when Bwildered hooks his cable to a tree he is dumping downhill - but I have no doubt that you know what you are doing and are taking a calculated risk that you believe is worth taking even though the method might not be recommended by the government.

Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Just some more of my useless armchair comments:
> 
> Gypo, how do you get that chain tight enough to prevent a split? Do you double wrap it before binding so you have 360 degree compression.
> 
> ...


Ron, with a loadbinder and a 4' snipe you can get the chain extremely tight.


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## svk (Jun 21, 2015)

Well put, Rwoods. They have both added a lot of value to this thread but perhaps should agree to disagree.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)




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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Deliberate hangs ups do work in some situations,but they can lock together like deer antlers do during the rut.
> Try to winch down a tree that is locked into another. If you can winch it down at all it generally will uproot the tree it is hung in. A very dangerous situation to be in.



I hadn't considered uprooting the neighboring trees. I assumed that you were working in a forest area where the adjacent trees were just as likely to be cut as your veneer tree.

Trees don't uproot very easy around here. We have a great depth of soil, it is mostly clay or humus soil. Trees root deep and they are pretty well adapted to high winds, too. I only see a couple of uprooted trees a year, and it is always associated with really big windstorm or decayed roots; perhaps just high winds from the right direction on a tree with a root system that is compromised on one side by a foundation or other solid barrier. Usually, when the tornadoes come through, all the trees are stripped of their branches or broken off at the base; the roots tend to stay anchored right where they are.


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## pdqdl (Jun 21, 2015)

Deets066 said:


> I have a 30" walnut in my timber that I need to top out before I fall it. It's much taller than all the surrounding trees and would be a very nice veneer log, it's 28' to the first branch.



That kind of tree is quite common around here. Common as dirt, in fact; they aren't worth hauling to the veneer mill about 60 miles away. They don't buy "city trees", and walnut grows everywhere in this part of the country. The mills also don't give much to some stranger that showed up with a tree on his truck. I think it is pretty much an insider business, and I am on the outside.

I still get people that think their walnut tree is worth a fortune, they want me to take the tree away for the value of the wood. I give them a quote to remove the tree, I give them a quote to haul the tree to the mill, and I tell them they can keep the revenue. So far, no one has ever taken me up on it.


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## Deets066 (Jun 21, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> That kind of tree is quite common around here. Common as dirt, in fact; they aren't worth hauling to the veneer mill about 60 miles away. They don't buy "city trees", and walnut grows everywhere in this part of the country. The mills also don't give much to some stranger that showed up with a tree on his truck. I think it is pretty much an insider business, and I am on the outside.
> 
> I still get people that think their walnut tree is worth a fortune, they want me to take the tree away for the value of the wood. I give them a quote to remove the tree, I give them a quote to haul the tree to the mill, and I tell them they can keep the revenue. So far, no one has ever taken me up on it.


Not what ya know but who ya know,

I know a few people


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 21, 2015)

Walnut veneer never seemed to be a heavy hitter where I was cutting. If I recall I got 1.50/board ft.
But just try to buy some kiln dryed walnut lumber at home Depot. Lol.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 22, 2015)

I was cutting somepretty big wood today, so I had to call in a couple of young fellas to skid it out.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 22, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 431904
> I was cutting somepretty big wood today, so I had to call in a couple of young fellas to skid it out.



i see you cut your snipe off, to hide your work of course  work of a cull! LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 22, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i see you cut your snipe off, to hide your work of course  work of a cull! LOL


You are correct, I sawed off the triple undercut, fibre pull, shatterd butt and slanted knotch with dutchmens, just to save face. Lol


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## Big_Wood (Jun 22, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> You are correct, I sawed off the triple undercut, fibre pull, shatterd butt and slanted knotch with dutchmens, just to save face. Lol



probably went 180 from where you wanted it too LOL


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## Big_Wood (Jun 22, 2015)

BIG wood though john. be very careful out there buddy. your 2 culls look fresh and clean ready for the day, first tree skidded i take it?


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## weedkilla (Jun 22, 2015)

How did you tie them in before you felled the tree?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 22, 2015)

I didnt have to tie them, they climbed up to the crown with the timber carrier and when I hollered "TIMBER" they spun around 180.
Its hard to get good help off the street though.


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## Bwildered (Jun 22, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Typically you cut first, then get the equipment in. 24,ooo bf huh? So like an 8-10 foot diamter tree with 100 feet of log? How big is your dozer? If your tree is more elsatic you should be able to swing it even farther.


In our bush it is more economical to cut then snig as you go, you start at the bottom of a slope & work upwards with the heads laying into the open areas already worked. That log was 1.85m dia at the butt & 1.25m dia at 32m. My own dozer is only about 4.5 tonnes, when I was contract falling we would use a cat D6C or D5B with the average tree volume of around 3-4 m3 with the occasional ones up around the 10m3. Our trees are very heavy & tall so when an over cut is made they pinch & stuff the bar real good real quick. 




Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 22, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Just some more of my useless armchair comments:
> 
> Gypo, how do you get that chain tight enough to prevent a split? Do you double wrap it before binding so you have 360 degree compression.
> 
> ...


When you have the cable around the log before falling the winch is in free spool so it doesn't stop the log sliding down the gully or whip tension on the cable, dozer 45'off to one side & retreat on the opposite 45' retreat path.
Thansk


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## treesmith (Jun 22, 2015)

There's got to be a fair bit of difference between cutting US softwood and AU hardwood. We took down a massive multistem cypress today, technically a softwood but yet as hard as US Oak. What works in one situation on one side of the world doesn't automatically work elsewhere. Ausie trees are fast grown and can be extremely heavy, hellish dense and bloody hard


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## Bwildered (Jun 22, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Deliberate hangs ups do work in some situations,but they can lock together like deer antlers do during the rut.
> Try to winch down a tree that is locked into another. If you can winch it down at all it generally will uproot the tree it is hung in. A very dangerous situation to be in.


As well as damaging another tree that will scar it & make it worthless later, widowmakers are left hanging waiting to make falling more dangerous than it has to be.
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 22, 2015)

treesmith said:


> There's got to be a fair bit of difference between cutting US softwood and AU hardwood. We took down a massive multistem cypress today, technically a softwood but yet as hard as US Oak. What works in one situation on one side of the world doesn't automatically work elsewhere. Ausie trees are fast grown and can be extremely heavy, hellish dense and bloody hard


Good point, softwoods are generaly much more forgiving than hardwood. Softwoods can be put thru a much smaller window in the canopy and are a about 1/3 the weight and are less likely to barber chair if an unintensional dutchman is placed. But every tree has it's inherant dangers.
However the worst injuries I've had were in softwood timber.


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## svk (Jun 22, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> However the worst injuries I've had were in softwood timber.


I haven't cut a lot of large trees because we just don't have them in our area. However it seems that around here 6-12" diameter birch and maple are the most dangerous trees to fell because the butt can bounce excessively once the crown contacts the ground. Several feet to either side and up to 8' above the stump. I always take a few extra steps back. OTOH you can drop an 18" aspen and it if bounces at all its a surprise.


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## rwoods (Jun 22, 2015)

I thought I was done with the tree turning discussion, but I couldn't restrain myself from asking a registered structural engineer today if a tree with a slight natural lean could be felled 180 degrees from the natural lean using only incremental cuts. I told him I was asking due to an ongoing international dispute between loggers. FWIW He said, "Yes." And, if there is any lingering doubt, in both northern and southern hemispheres. However, for safety purposes, he said he would recommend mechanical assistance. I told him I was going to quote him on the internet. He was fine with that.

Ron


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## bitzer (Jun 22, 2015)

You're a funny guy Ron. Thanks for asking! Thats the fun thing about wood. It bends.

I cut all hardwoods by the way. Not sure if anyone got the wrong impression there.


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## bitzer (Jun 22, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> In our bush it is more economical to cut then snig as you go, you start at the bottom of a slope & work upwards with the heads laying into the open areas already worked. That log was 1.85m dia at the butt & 1.25m dia at 32m. My own dozer is only about 4.5 tonnes, when I was contract falling we would use a cat D6C or D5B with the average tree volume of around 3-4 m3 with the occasional ones up around the 10m3. Our trees are very heavy & tall so when an over cut is made they pinch & stuff the bar real good real quick. View attachment 431916
> View attachment 431917
> View attachment 431918
> View attachment 431919
> ...



The biggest merch timber I get up here is in the 4ft range. So you've got me beat on size. Problably height too? My tallest usually have 60ft of logs in them, occaisionally taller. We only have mid-May thru mid-October with leaves on em though. Thought rot was a rarity? Maybe more common on the bigguns for you? You have any pics of the stump?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 22, 2015)

This may be the biggest harwood I have cut to date. Its a Sugar Maple, and if memory is serving correctly it was 48 at chest height, I was gonna say breast height, but I didn't want to make anybody think that I was a tit. That was my claim to fame and 15 minutes of it!
John


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## Bwildered (Jun 22, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The biggest merch timber I get up here is in the 4ft range. So you've got me beat on size. Problably height too? My tallest usually have 60ft of logs in them, occaisionally taller. We only have mid-May thru mid-October with leaves on em though. Thought rot was a rarity? Maybe more common on the bigguns for you? You have any pics of the stump?


There are plenty of trees with fire damage, scars, pipes & internal punk, they are left as mentioned to make up the 10 per hectare have to be retained for environmental reasons, nobody knowingly will take a quota sawlog with rot in it, so they aren't knowingly cut.


Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 22, 2015)

Ron, that engineer would be quite open to test his theory in his shed with a broomstick or sapling stem then?
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 22, 2015)

Tenacity gone amuck is probably a fair description of one of my quirks. Ron


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## rwoods (Jun 22, 2015)

Bewildered, you are getting too predictable. Your stick and sapling are not going to change anybody's mind any more than I can change yours. No disrespect intended. BTW he said just try it somewhere and on some tree where you are not endangering anyone or anything if you don't get a cut just right. Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 23, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bewildered, you are getting too predictable. Your stick and sapling are not going to change anybody's mind any more than I can change yours. No disrespect intended. BTW he said just try it somewhere and on some tree where you are not endangering anyone or anything if you don't get a cut just right. Ron


Obviously a job for mythbusters then. LOL
Thansk


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## bitzer (Jun 23, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> There are plenty of trees with fire damage, scars, pipes & internal punk, they are left as mentioned to make up the 10 per hectare have to be retained for environmental reasons, nobody knowingly will take a quota sawlog with rot in it, so they aren't knowingly cut.View attachment 432035
> View attachment 432036
> 
> Thansk


That stump looks to be several years old as did the log laying on the ground. You have any recent stumps? There are entire jobs I cut, high ground too, where I have to butt off every tree. They show no physical signs from the outside.


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## bitzer (Jun 23, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Obviously a job for mythbusters then. LOL
> Thansk


That would be an awesome show! Those two goofballs probably don't have much experience with a saw though. They'd have to hire somebody.


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## svk (Jun 23, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You're a funny guy Ron. Thanks for asking! Thats the fun thing about wood. It bends.
> 
> I cut all hardwoods by the way. Not sure if anyone got the wrong impression there.


Curious. Is something like red oak more difficult to turn because the fibers separate so easily? Or is it easier than something that holds together like elm?


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## Bwildered (Jun 23, 2015)

bitzer said:


> That stump looks to be several years old as did the log laying on the ground. You have any recent stumps? There are entire jobs I cut, high ground too, where I have to butt off every tree. They show no physical signs from the outside.


Yes I did cut it some years back, it's only 150 meters up the hill from my home so it's slowly being cut up for firewood from the downhill end. When our trees get older & bigger that's when they get pipes in them, the outside tension of the tree is so great it disintegrates & crushes the timber in the centre of the log from the pressure, then the termites & punk can get a hold. Young trees normally don't have this problem, but some species like red iron bark are prone to it at a smaller size.



I knew you were going to ask so I took a few more pics when I was in the bush the other day.
Thansk


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## HuskStihl (Jun 23, 2015)

svk said:


> Curious. Is something like red oak more difficult to turn because the fibers separate so easily? Or is it easier than something that holds together like elm?


To borrow from a much earlier MustangMike post "if I'm turning a sweet-gum, I am frequently mistaken for a professional. If it is a beech, not so much"
I don't know the science, but some species have wood that will twist and flex a lot without breaking. If live oaks grew tall and straight, I'd bet those would turn 360 degrees.


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## rwoods (Jun 23, 2015)

I tell you what, Bwildered. Send me a to scale ported midget chainsaw with a sharp chain and I'll attempt to enlist our resident surgeon, Jon, to fall the 1" sapling stem of his choice. A 32 to 1 scale should be about right. Don't forget to include a decompression valve on the saw and proper mix instructions. Maybe throw in an extra chain or two so he can practice.  

Better yet if Jon will agree to go down your way, you can pick the stem so we won't be arguing over its balance. That will also save you some shipping costs.



Ron


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 23, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> To borrow from a much earlier MustangMike post "if I'm turning a sweet-gum, I am frequently mistaken for a professional. If it is a beech, not so much"
> I don't know the science, but some species have wood that will twist and flex a lot without breaking. If live oaks grew tall and straight, I'd bet those would turn 360 degrees.


I'm wondering how much you could twist a rubber tree?


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## mdavlee (Jun 23, 2015)

Someone go to home Depot and buy a closet rod and get to work with a hack saw.


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## Bwildered (Jun 23, 2015)

rwoods said:


> I tell you what, Bwildered. Send me a to scale ported midget chainsaw with a sharp chain and I'll attempt to enlist our resident surgeon, Jon, to fall the 1" sapling stem of his choice. A 32 to 1 scale should be about right. Don't forget to include a decompression valve on the saw and proper mix instructions. Maybe throw in an extra chain or two so he can practice.
> 
> Better yet if Jon will agree to go down your way, you can pick the stem so we won't be arguing over its balance. That will also save you some shipping costs.
> 
> ...


I have sent you a scale saw in the post, it's an Armstrong brand, don't forget to burp & fart before starting it to decompress the power unit.
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 23, 2015)

mdavlee said:


> Someone go to home Depot and buy a closet rod and get to work with a hack saw.



Mike, the problem with that is scale, dry wood and no butt flare or fibers. I believe scale would be the biggest issue and lack of an appropriate cutting edge. On a 32 to 1 scale, the kerf would be about the thickness of 3 sheets of ordinary 20# copy paper.



Bwildered said:


> I have sent you a scale saw in the post, it's an Armstrong brand, don't forget to burp & fart before starting it to decompress the power unit.
> Thansk



Are you sure Jon can start it? He says his wife starts his other saws for him.

Ron


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## bitzer (Jun 23, 2015)

I had already put in a standard dutchman when this happened. I could see the stem lean was about 90 from the intended lay, but with the tight canopy I couldn't see the top. It leaned back. So I threw in a couple more kerfs in the face and nipped a little from the front. She came right around. I tried to get a pic of it opening up, but I couldn't get my phone out fast enough. Don't worry I had an eye on the top. Its funny how oppertunity knocks. I probably haven't used these cuts in a year or more. Now twice in a week.

Sat tight.


Sittn tight back. View to the lay.



Laid out.



Stump shot



Basswood is soft so there would be marks if I cheated.


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## bitzer (Jun 23, 2015)

svk said:


> Curious. Is something like red oak more difficult to turn because the fibers separate so easily? Or is it easier than something that holds together like elm?


 Red oak is funny. Some hold better than others. I often have to do things differently with it to get them to swing. Elm will stay on the stump all day if you let it. Long fibers there.


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## bitzer (Jun 23, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> This may be the biggest harwood I have cut to date. Its a Sugar Maple, and if memory is serving correctly it was 48 at chest height, I was gonna say breast height, but I didn't want to make anybody think that I was a tit. That was my claim to fame and 15 minutes of it!
> JohnView attachment 432033
> View attachment 432034


 Nice maple John! Is that a lake in the background?


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## weedkilla (Jun 23, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I had already put in a standard dutchman when this happened. I could see the stem lean was about 90 from the intended lay, but with the tight canopy I couldn't see the top. It leaned back. So I threw in a couple more kerfs in the face and nipped a little from the front. She came right around. I tried to get a pic of it opening up, but I couldn't get my phone out fast enough. Don't worry I had an eye on the top. Its funny how oppertunity knocks. I probably haven't used these cuts in a year or more. Now twice in a week.
> 
> Sat tight.
> View attachment 432184
> ...


Whatever way this thread goes from here - that's some nice cutting.
Getting it to move when it has set back is hard enough, but having all the next cuts right so it keeps moving is harder again. Well judged and well executed. 

Honestly, I doubt I could make that cut in a repeatable fashion. It's also probably my 4th choice to get my backside out of that sort of problem, so here's to hoping I don't have the reason to find out anytime soon!


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## pdqdl (Jun 23, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> ... when an over cut is made they pinch & stuff the bar real good real quick.
> Thansk



I never heard that expression. What does one do when you "pinch & stuff the bar real good"?


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## weedkilla (Jun 23, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> I never heard that expression. What does one do when you "pinch & stuff the bar real good"?


Swear.


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## pdqdl (Jun 23, 2015)

Ok. Got me there.

What has one done when your bar has been "pinched and stuffed"?

I think I know pinched. Not so sure about stuffed.


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## weedkilla (Jun 24, 2015)

Stuffed, knackered, rooted, buggered, no bloody good anymore. 

Rails pinched closed (at best), twisted beyond repair (at worst).


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## Bwildered (Jun 24, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Mike, the problem with that is scale, dry wood and no butt flare or fibers. I believe scale would be the biggest issue and lack of an appropriate cutting edge. On a 32 to 1 scale, the kerf would be about the thickness of 3 sheets of ordinary 20# copy paper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have delegated the test already we see! LOL
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 24, 2015)

weedkilla said:


> Stuffed, knackered, rooted, buggered, no bloody good anymore.
> 
> Rails pinched closed (at best), twisted beyond repair (at worst).


And for us that's another $110 stihl bar gonski, 3 slabs worth, enough to make a grown man cry.
Slab = carton of beer
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 24, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> You have delegated the test already we see! LOL
> Thansk



Had to - I am not skilled enough to make such precise cuts. Only chance I would have is if we scaled *up* the project to give me a larger margin of error. Even then I would need, of course, a big saw and a long bar with a stinger and bitzer on one end or the other. Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 25, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Had to - I am not skilled enough to make such precise cuts. Only chance I would have is if we scaled *up* the project to give me a larger margin of error. Even then I would need, of course, a big saw and a long bar with a stinger and bitzer on one end or the other. Ron


The thing with doing a small scale test is the worst thing that can happen could be a nasty paper cut & we've heard how serious they are for some! LOL imagine a real injury from going full scale, scary!
Thansk


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## Moparmyway (Jun 25, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> The thing with doing a small scale test is .............



20 tons is not 20oz.
It could never be a realistic test


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## Bwildered (Jun 25, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I'm wondering how much you could twist a rubber tree?


1.5 turns but then when they hit the ground the bounce back upright & you have to fall them again. LOL. Not quite as quick to bounce as a rubber cheque.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 25, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> 20 tons is not 20oz.
> It could never be a realistic test


It actually is proportional, the only difference is with a small scale you can't get the thin sapwood layer around the truewood & sapwood is the strongest part of the tree in HWDs, I don't know about SWDs, if you use a sapling it's all sapwood & if you use a broomstick it's all heartwood & seasoned which is stronger than unseasoned heartwood.
The centre of gravity never changes with the lean & the direction it goes when the fibres are cut a true representation of the physics involved. That's why it's such a good cheap safe tool to experiment with, used in engineering & design world wide in this day & age.
Thansk


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## Gologit (Jun 25, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> That's why it's such a good cheap tool to experiment with, used in engineering & design world wide in this day & age.
> Thansk



Not in my neighborhood, even in this day & age.


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## Bwildered (Jun 25, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Not in my neighborhood, even in this day & age.


The simplest things are often the hardest, like the first step of a journey into another age.
Thansk


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## bitzer (Jun 25, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> The simplest things are often the hardest, like the first step of a journey into another age.
> Thansk


 You get that off a cat poster? Ok so with your broom theory, the wood doesn't need to be strong it needs to bend and the fibers need to stretch. Red oak is very strong, but the fibers usually break easily. Basswood on the other hand is not very strong, but bends really well. Dead dry wood doesn't bend or stretch very well at all. Also there is no momentum to initiate movement in your broom scenario, no top weight. The entire experiment you describe would be like making a matchbox car jump off a ramp and prentending that it simulates a real life scenario. If you are too afraid to try it on a little tree say 10" dbh or so, then make a video of your broom handle experiment. It seems simple enough right?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 25, 2015)

No, not a lake. It was the timber I wouldnt get if the tree went into the field. Lol
I couldn't lift it enough with wedges so I refelled it to go parallel with the fence,hence the butchered butt.
It scaled over 1000' on the doyle, but was only a sawlog because it was all heartwood.


bitzer said:


> Nice maple John! Is that a lake in the background?


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## Bwildered (Jun 25, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You get that off a cat poster? Ok so with your broom theory, the wood doesn't need to be strong it needs to bend and the fibers need to stretch. Red oak is very strong, but the fibers usually break easily. Basswood on the other hand is not very strong, but bends really well. Dead dry wood doesn't bend or stretch very well at all. Also there is no momentum to initiate movement in your broom scenario, no top weight. The entire experiment you describe would be like making a matchbox car jump off a ramp and prentending that it simulates a real life scenario. If you are too afraid to try it on a little tree say 10" dbh or so, then make a video of your broom handle experiment. It seems simple enough right?


No thats an original quote I made up that's based & tweeked a little from similar quotes that explain coping with life's little challenges that arise, you can use it anytime you like. With a small scale test, an accurate lean can be placed on the stem, the top can be loaded to any extent required, if a sapling is used then the timber is strong & flexible, I don't know where you get the idea that the fibres stretch anymore than a minute microscopic amount. I find it amazing that some can't visualise the proposed test then work out at that moment how it's not possible for the stem to fall 180' opposite to the gravitational lean with just a cutting method.
Designers & engineers use scale models everyday of boats, ships, cars, planes, building etc, to test how they respond to forces & reactions.
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 25, 2015)

Funny stuff here:
http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/felling_trees_against_the_lean


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 25, 2015)

You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol


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## 2dogs (Jun 25, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
> This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol



The doofus is using a digger/tamper made for fence post work. It is not a pry bar, different steel, different temper. Not to mention how long should it take to get a little staub like that on the ground?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 25, 2015)

Ya, he sure was making a career out of it. Lol
I was wondering what kind of timber tool he was using.
He must have been very proud of himself though.
Crownless, that stub didnt warrant an undercut nor a wedge.


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
> This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol



Now that was funny!
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 26, 2015)

Was it just me, or did anyone else notice he prayed before and after?
It looked like the biggest stick in the whole bush!
Was it a Beech, Birch or Bulgarian Bugwood?


Bwildered said:


> Now that was funny!
> Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Was it just me, or did anyone else notice he prayed before and after?
> It looked like the biggest stick in the whole bush!
> Was it a Beech, Birch or Bulgarian Bugwood?


I think he was praying that he didn't have a heart attack from all the unessesary exertion. He thought it was a son of a beech.
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 26, 2015)

I bet his wife after seeing the manly vid thinks he's a pretty studly guy. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 26, 2015)

Lumberjack dude cant be from Canada or Australia. It looks like a Pennsylvania thing to me. Lol


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## windthrown (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I bet his wife after seeing the manly vid thinks he's a pretty studly guy. Lol



Looks like you and I are avatar Kesey cousins now...


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 26, 2015)

There you are Stamper! Was wondering where you were. Always like your posts.
Never give an inch!
That doesnt sound right because she wanted 6", but I could only give her 2" three times. Lol


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lumberjack dude cant be from Canada or Australia. It looks like a Pennsylvania thing to me. Lol


Or Michigan, running 20:1, fouled the plug & had to finish it off by hand, then a weeks rest to collect whoopee for the heroics. I'm only basing that on personal experience!
Thansk


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 26, 2015)

Yes Michagan for sure, but Mich may have a few more stems left than Maine has. New York and New Jersey have lots of wood from what I've seen and so does Pennsilvania.
Its growing faster than we can cut it down.
If you are a logger and you went to Maine you would sit on a stump and cry.


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## rogue661 (Jun 26, 2015)

I've not read all this but interesting the different techniques from around the world, definitely a regional thing local knowledge goes a long way.. What works in one type of timer won't necessarily work in all timber...I don't think there is a wrong or wright here just local on the ground knowledge in whatever timber that be from around the world..
I asked the old man what's the biggest quota hardwood log he has cut? said about 16 m3 but said he bucked bigger for whatever mills he cut for back in the day and something about nice 6ft+ hoop pine many moons ago(softwood)..the log in my avatar was about 13 m3 was a forest Redgum and goes about 1200 kg to the cubic meter.
Also asked about the techniques described (getting a tree to go over 180' to the lean with nothing but cutting) and how that would go in Aussie hardwood? (I'm not saying it does not work just how would it go in our hardwood k) well the blank look pretty much told me as in a look of WTF haha, but yeah his answer was sounds like a good way to die and no that wont work in our hardwood...Think I'll take his word for it I've seen what a 10+ m3 hardwood can do when they sit back on a bar ya lucky if you ever get that bar back in working condition that's for sure, it's unbolt the powerhead and let it go the way it wants to go....Cheers


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## bitzer (Jun 26, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> No thats an original quote I made up that's based & tweeked a little from similar quotes that explain coping with life's little challenges that arise, you can use it anytime you like. With a small scale test, an accurate lean can be placed on the stem, the top can be loaded to any extent required, if a sapling is used then the timber is strong & flexible, I don't know where you get the idea that the fibres stretch anymore than a minute microscopic amount. I find it amazing that some can't visualise the proposed test then work out at that moment how it's not possible for the stem to fall 180' opposite to the gravitational lean with just a cutting method.
> Designers & engineers use scale models everyday of boats, ships, cars, planes, building etc, to test how they respond to forces & reactions.
> Thansk


Oh I can visualize it alright. Apparently you've never seen a tree that was standing straight seconds before bent tight to the ground. They are called springpoles. I've seen em bent in multiple 'S' shapes. Trees up to 12-14" dbh. Fibers don't bend huh? That last set of pics I put up, how do you explain that? The tree had the backcut entirely closed. Which was was it leaning? Which way did it go out? A broom handle is not an accurate test. Its easier to destroy than create isn't it? I've given two real world examples with photographic evidence and you've provided only what the limits of your imagination can conjur.


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## Moparmyway (Jun 26, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> 20 tons is not 20oz.
> It could never be a realistic test





Bwildered said:


> It actually is proportional, the only difference is with a small scale you can't get the thin sapwood layer around the truewood & sapwood is the strongest part of the tree in HWDs, I don't know about SWDs, if you use a sapling it's all sapwood & if you use a broomstick it's all heartwood & seasoned which is stronger than unseasoned heartwood.
> The centre of gravity never changes with the lean & the direction it goes when the fibres are cut a true representation of the physics involved. That's why it's such a good cheap safe tool to experiment with, used in engineering & design world wide in this day & age.
> Thansk



And here is where I can help you get back on the road.
The 20 tons is weight (leaning) on the soft Dutchman and its hinge ................... your rake - just above the proposed cut - has how much weight ?

Its impossible to simulate the weight thats in the lean with the rake experiment.
You need a good leaner on a day without wind........ then try it on something at least 15" DBH in the spring. Just about all species of trees wood fibers are wet and stretchy then, and cutting them in their pre-spring and spring blossoming times will give you the best chance of pulling it off


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

rogue661 said:


> I've not read all this but interesting the different techniques from around the world, definitely a regional thing local knowledge goes a long way.. What works in one type of timer won't necessarily work in all timber...I don't think there is a wrong or wright here just local on the ground knowledge in whatever timber that be from around the world..
> I asked the old man what's the biggest quota hardwood log he has cut? said about 16 m3 but said he bucked bigger for whatever mills he cut for back in the day and something about nice 6ft+ hoop pine many moons ago(softwood)..the log in my avatar was about 13 m3 was a forest Redgum and goes about 1200 kg to the cubic meter.
> Also asked about the techniques described (getting a tree to go over 180' to the lean with nothing but cutting) and how that would go in Aussie hardwood? (I'm not saying it does not work just how would it go in our hardwood k) well the blank look pretty much told me as in a look of WTF haha, but yeah his answer was sounds like a good way to die and no that wont work in our hardwood...Think I'll take his word for it I've seen what a 10+ m3 hardwood can do when they sit back on a bar ya lucky if you ever get that bar back in working condition that's for sure, it's unbolt the powerhead and let it go the way it wants to go....Cheers


I remember when I was 6 or 7 back in primary school, one of the boys in my classes dad owned R model mack log trucks, one day 3 of them lined up out side the front of the school, each one had a one log load from a single tree, he only owned 3 trucks so they had to go back & pick up the remainder for a couple more loads. The local mill had to resurrect and modify a mothballed frame saw from the junk heap to break it down.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Oh I can visualize it alright. Apparently you've never seen a tree that was standing straight seconds before bent tight to the ground. They are called springpoles. I've seen em bent in multiple 'S' shapes. Trees up to 12-14" dbh. Fibers don't bend huh? That last set of pics I put up, how do you explain that? The tree had the backcut entirely closed. Which was was it leaning? Which way did it go out? A broom handle is not an accurate test. Its easier to destroy than create isn't it? I've given two real world examples with photographic evidence and you've provided only what the limits of your imagination can conjur.


Your tree sat down because the hinge was gone, it sat down & was perpendicular in balance from the tuft of hinge you left, to the other side of the stump, when you knawed away the stump from under the side of the butt you took the support from that side of the log which loaded the backside of the butt, which put a tipping force on the butt forcing the tree over. Yes I have those small undergrowth trees that bend like that, when they do the bark will peel off the compression side of them because the timber is being compressed that much, the bark on the other side is unbroken & attached, I never said fibres don't bend.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> And here is where I can help you get back on the road.
> The 20 tons is weight (leaning) on the soft Dutchman and its hinge ................... your rake - just above the proposed cut - has how much weight ?
> 
> Its impossible to simulate the weight thats in the lean with the rake experiment.
> You need a good leaner on a day without wind........ then try it on something at least 15" DBH in the spring. Just about all species of trees wood fibers are wet and stretchy then, and cutting them in their pre-spring and spring blossoming times will give you the best chance of pulling it off


The forces are directly proportional as long as the base cross sectional size, height, mass & lean are to scale. 1 kg exerting a force over 1 cm2 is the same as 10,000 kg exerting a force over 10,000 cm2.
Thansk


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## Moparmyway (Jun 26, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> The forces are directly proportional *as long as* the base cross sectional size, height, mass & lean are to scale. 1 kg exerting a force over 1 cm2 is the same as 10,000 kg exerting a force over 10,000 cm2.
> Thansk


Hard to make that rake proportional ......................"as long as" is why it wont work......... although you seem to have all of the answers and the suggestions to try your experiment yourself. You seem to be the only one saying its the same thing .................. go for it !!! Looking forward to your video of your rake in your vise; prooving your experiment and your disposition.


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## rogue661 (Jun 26, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> I remember when I was 6 or 7 back in primary school, one of the boys in my classes dad owned R model mack log trucks, one day 3 of them lined up out side the front of the school, each one had a one log load from a single tree, he only owned 3 trucks so they had to go back & pick up the remainder for a couple more loads. The local mill had to resurrect and modify a mothballed frame saw from the junk heap to break it down.
> Thansk


Yeah the old man has some stories about massive hardwoods, I remember when I was a kid he was logging the tabletop mountains for a sawmill near rocky QLD and the sawmill had an old pit saw to break the logs down cant say I've ever seen a pit saw since it was a twin edger thingy? I don't know its correct name but it had big ass crosscut looking blades?, but yeah they had some massive hardwoods in the yard if only I had a camera..

Me and my older brother all of about 8 and 9 bout years old used to carry his fuel/oil sledgehammer and steel wedges...Steel wedges? not for lifting a log on the stump only freeing his pinched 090 cutting the head off a log or in a limb! it happens to the best of em more than once a day that be the truth! lol .. He used to tell us to stay real close behind him and keep an eye on what's going on up top (as in falling limbs) as he was falling a big ass hardwood log or any log for that matter not that I need to explain why that would be safe staying in close to him.. What a rush as a kid! and we thought nothing of it thinking every kid does this for there old man?! ahh the good old days! haha... Cheers


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Hard to make that rake proportional ......................"as long as" is why it wont work......... although you seem to have all of the answers and the suggestions to try your experiment yourself. You seem to be the only one saying its the same thing .................. go for it !!! Looking forward to your video of your rake in your vise; prooving your experiment and your disposition.


There is no need for me to cut my rake , broom, or sapling, I have a grasp of gravity & can visualise the outcome, the test is for you guys or gals that can't! 
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jun 26, 2015)

Guys, as long as Bwildered hangs on to his false premise he is going to keep bantering. Broomsticks, saplings, Aussie wood, North America wood makes no difference with his false premise. Carry on if you like but you're just whistling in the wind.  Ron


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## Gologit (Jun 26, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Guys, as long as Bwildered hangs on to his false premise he is going to keep bantering. Broomsticks, saplings, Aussie wood, North America wood makes no difference with his false premise. Carry on if you like but you're just whistling in the wind.  Ron


 Well said.


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## svk (Jun 26, 2015)

It's been 16 pages now and i think we are all out of popcorn.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
> This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol



Seriously?!? I already have way too much stuff, but now I'm supposed to carry some sort of giant nail around the woods with me?!?


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## Cope1024 (Jun 26, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Seriously?!? I already have way too much stuff, but now I'm supposed to carry some sort of giant nail around the woods with me?!?



Nah, just follow him around. He left his bar and wedges and walked off into the sunset.


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Guys, as long as Bwildered hangs on to his false premise he is going to keep bantering. Broomsticks, saplings, Aussie wood, North America wood makes no difference with his false premise. Carry on if you like but you're just whistling in the wind.  Ron


I'm just as entertained by a magic show as the next man, but the next man may fully believe that hot lady was really cut in half! LOL
Thansk


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## weedkilla (Jun 26, 2015)

svk said:


> It's been 16 pages now and i think we are all out of popcorn.


If only you had real Aussie popcorn, cos our popcorn is bigger and better than your popcorn. 

Apparently I need to put one of those smiley things here to show sarcasm, but I get confused.


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## rwoods (Jun 26, 2015)

Bwildered,

As you know there is no magic nor defying gravity involved. 

Though I don't have the means for your little experiment, here's one we can do together provided you can sit real still. We'll go down to your favorite watering hole where you can take a sit on a 4 legged stool. While you sit tight I'll whack off the front two legs until you agree you have a forward lean then I'll whack off enough of the rear legs to put you on your rear. You can invite your friends so we will have unbiased witnesses. Remember your part is to sit real still and signal when you have forward lean.

Better yet, if you could find us a six legged stool, I could demonstrate with sequential segmented cuts.



Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Bwildered,
> 
> As you know there is no magic nor defying gravity involved.
> 
> ...


i could just imagine that, a tool on a stool! LOL 
seriously though, that's a really abstract idea of yours to think that it can model a soft Dutchman cut, I'm seriously thinking about losing five minutes of my life, an inch of my broom handle to see what I know will happen already, photographing it, so you guys can disbelieve it still.
Thansk


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## windthrown (Jun 26, 2015)

Is there another Brush Ape in the house? This place is getting pretty crowded with all the trolls.


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Is there another Brush Ape in the house? This place is getting pretty crowded with all the trolls.


The old worn out troll defence.
Thansk


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## windthrown (Jun 26, 2015)

Said by yet another rapidly worn out noob troll...


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## rwoods (Jun 26, 2015)

Yes, he is just messing with us. He is too intelligent not to know there is no optical illusion, magic or gravity defiance involved. Ron


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

windthrown said:


> Said by yet another rapidly worn out noob troll...


Here we go! How original! LOL
Thansk


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 26, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Here we go!
> Thansk


Right. Straight to Ignore. 
Спасибо


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## Bwildered (Jun 26, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> Right. Straight to Ignore.
> Спасибо


How fortunate, another real man lost! LOL


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## bitzer (Jun 26, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Your tree sat down because the hinge was gone, it sat down & was perpendicular in balance from the tuft of hinge you left, to the other side of the stump, when you knawed away the stump from under the side of the butt you took the support from that side of the log which loaded the backside of the butt, which put a tipping force on the butt forcing the tree over. Yes I have those small undergrowth trees that bend like that, when they do the bark will peel off the compression side of them because the timber is being compressed that much, the bark on the other side is unbroken & attached, I never said fibres don't bend.
> Thansk


The tree would have sat back hinge or no, but you just explained sawing leaning into the tree made it tip forward. You've finally got it. That was exasperating. I think I'm done here. Good luck with your broom handle. And tree fibers do stretch, the tensioned ones are longer than the compressed ones. If they didn't stretch they would break instead of bend.


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## pdqdl (Jun 27, 2015)

I am going to post a few pics, you guys that do this "swinging the tree" thing are welcome to tell me if I have this right. This is going to be a bit long, but what the heck? That seems to be my specialty. I will also probably have to edit this a few times to get it all right.

Let us assume that there is a tall tree with a slight lean to the east. We all agree (I think) that a deep face cut could be made that would be less than perpendicular to the lean that would cause the tree to lean in a different direction. For simplicity purposes, I am assuming that there is no back cut, that the wood is flexible enough to allow the face cut to close without breaking. This cut requires that the face closes holding the tree in just the right position, yet has enough holding wood to prevent total collapse of the tree. Picture as shown:






Let us remember that the lean of the tree is now a bit greater than it was before, but we have used gravity to change it's direction to the south east.

Now, either above or below the original cut, we will cut an additional deep face cut. Although it will be installed using the full diameter of the tree, it will only be held securely by the remaining holding wood, and it will be only partially held by the wood fibers that have been undercut in the first face cut. Again, we will be increasing the angle of the lean, using the force of gravity and the strength of our holding wood to change the lean somewhat to the southwest. At this point, the tree has not ever "risen" against gravity, but the lean has _increased_ while it rotated around the vertical axis. The amount of true holding wood has _decreased_ with each cut.





Repeat the process on the third cut, making a face cut that uses gravity to increase the lean while it changes the direction of lean. After the 3rd cut, the tree could be theoretically facing almost opposite the original lean; all by making face cuts a bit less than perpendicular to the existing lean that collectively rotate the tree aound to the SW, having once been leaning East.





At this point, a quick nip into the remaining holding wood and the tree will fall opposite the original lean.

Obviously, this theoretical tree now leaning to the SW is being held by a tiny amount of uncut holding wood, the face cuts would need to be made by an exceptionally skilled faller that could choose the necessary angles very precisely, and each cut would be chopping useable lumber off the end of the log. I'm not so sure how effectively this could be done in the real world, but it is theoretically possible.

Since I have NEVER tried to do this, how 'bout you lumber harvesters tell me if this is about what you have been describing with respect to "swinging a tree" with multiple cuts. Obviously, I have not made any mention of dutchmen, and my drawings almost certainly are not scaled properly to allow a face cut (of unspecified width) to close. Back cuts (that would allow the face cut to close) have not been drawn, mostly because I am not that good at making these drawings.


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## bitzer (Jun 27, 2015)

Thats more or less it. With the multiple cuts in the soft dutchman you are sawing in a really deep face that falls into the next kerf and so on. Obviously the multiple face thing would not work because the tree would either break off or become incredibly unstable. Thats the general idea though. 

For all reading this- For the record just because it can be done does not mean its the safest or most efficient way of doing things. You learn a lot of tricks spending 5-6 hours stumpin trees every day. The bottom line is always safety and efficiency. I can't make money if I'm dead.


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## Bwildered (Jun 27, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The tree would have sat back hinge or no, but you just explained sawing leaning into the tree made it tip forward. You've finally got it. That was exasperating. I think I'm done here. Good luck with your broom handle. And tree fibers do stretch, the tensioned ones are longer than the compressed ones. If they didn't stretch they would break instead of bend.


Yes that's the same explanation I gave about 20 pages back so its not new, Ive got an old engineering textbook from my long forgotten studies with timber fibre elongation tables, short & long term elongation before failure, I will dig it out & tke a pic of it if you like, I liked the diagrammatic explanation given above, how it would be possible to do those cuts without pinching the saw would be a sight to see though.


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## square1 (Jun 27, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Funny stuff here:
> http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/felling_trees_against_the_lean


That's it, next tree I fell I'm doing the math before I even start the saw up. Course, being from Michigan the only math that matters is how many wedges a person can drive how fast with a post hole tamper


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 27, 2015)

bitzer said:


> ...For the record just because it (dutchman cut) can be done does not mean its the safest or most efficient way of doing things...


Right. I'll leave that one for the pro fallers. I'm still working on a clean Humboldt in the same time as I can make a conventional face. Not pretty at the moment...


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Seriously?!? I already have way too much stuff, but now I'm supposed to carry some sort of giant nail around the woods with me?!?


I think lumberjack dude has a great idea with his giant nail driver.
One could look like a real timber tramp with that multi purpose tool over the shoulder as a carrying apperatus for saw, jugs, lunch box and a coulpe of squirrels he shot along the way. Lol


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## HuskStihl (Jun 27, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> Right. I'll leave that one for the pro fallers. I'm still working on a clean Humboldt in the same time as I can make a conventional face. Not pretty at the moment...


The problem is gravity. On a conventional, gravity helps the angled cut not go long. On the Humboldt, gravity tries to pull the undercut long, which is death, unless you can comfortably vertically bore it into a block face. As a part timer, I intentionally try to miss the far corner a little short. If I do, it's a 30 second fix. Resist the temptation to chase u'r cuts if you miss long.


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 27, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> The problem is gravity. On a conventional, gravity helps the angled cut not go long. On the Humboldt, gravity tries to pull the undercut long, which is death, unless you can comfortably vertically bore it into a block face. As a part timer, I intentionally try to miss the far corner a little short. If I do, it's a 30 second fix. Resist the temptation to chase u'r cuts if you miss long.


LOL. Guilty as charged.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2015)

This dude has the right idea. Lol


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## Philip Wheelock (Jun 27, 2015)

Domino falling? I like this:


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2015)

Philip Wheelock said:


> Domino falling? I like this:



Cool vid. I once felled a dozen phone poles like that with the wires still in them as a "professional favour" for my lawyer who was getting underground power.
His wife was so impressed that she stuffed a 100$ bill in my shirt pocket. Lol
I'm sure they got a quote for 5000$ before I showed up on the scene.
Nice guys don't always finish last. Lol


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## olyman (Jun 27, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Cool vid. I once felled a dozen phone poles like that with the wires still in them as a "professional favour" for my lawyer who was getting underground power.
> His wife was so impressed that she stuffed a 100$ bill in my shirt pocket. Lol
> I'm sure they got a quote for 5000$ before I showed up on the scene.
> Nice guys don't always finish last. Lol


 now gyp,,you know dang well you didn't do that....the big pro loggers on here,,are the only ones capable.. they be eggspurts,,mostly spurts....


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## HuskStihl (Jun 27, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Cool vid. I once felled a dozen phone poles like that with the wires still in them as a "professional favour" for my lawyer who was getting underground power.
> His wife was so impressed that she stuffed a 100$ bill in my shirt pocket. Lol
> I'm sure they got a quote for 5000$ before I showed up on the scene.
> Nice guys don't always finish last. Lol


Sure, but did you burn them for firewood?


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Sure, but did you burn them for firewood?


That did cross my mind, but some of the phone poles were ant ridden, so I brought him some railway ties instead.
Id tell you the story about a lawyer selling me timber that wasnt his, but I dont wish to incriminate myself. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2015)

olyman said:


> now gyp,,you know dang well you didn't do that....the big pro loggers on here,,are the only ones capable.. they be eggspurts,,mostly spurts....


We're all just abunch of Hort Wankers anyway. Lol


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## HuskStihl (Jun 27, 2015)

Had to fall one this afternoon 180 degrees from the lean. Could have swung it 90 degrees, but it would have hung up. Since I don't have Bitz skills I did it the lame way.

Threw in a block face for no good reason, but it kept it on the stump pretty good


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## bitzer (Jun 27, 2015)

That elm Jon? I think you brought enough fuel! Nice looking face.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 27, 2015)

bitzer said:


> That elm Jon? I think you brought enough fuel! Nice looking face.


IDK, it's not gum, pine, hackberry or oak. Those are the only ones I can ID.
Thanks, I was thinking about how to most accurately set my hinge thickness (I did the back first), and first put in a vertical bore about where I thought it should be, then the top and undercut.
The gas can is just in case I needed the ported 394. J/K, those trees are right by my house, so no "Tru-fuel-canteen" mix carriers needed.
I didn't take pics of the hackberry that didn't turn and hung up. Had to bore in and out the bottom three times until it finally fell thru. Amateur.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 27, 2015)

My elm is bigger!


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## 2dogs (Jun 27, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Had to fall one this afternoon 180 degrees from the lean. Could have swung it 90 degrees, but it would have hung up. Since I don't have Bitz skills I did it the lame way.View attachment 432872
> 
> Threw in a block face for no good reason, but it kept it on the stump pretty good
> View attachment 432890


Why did you want it to stay on the stump?


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## HuskStihl (Jun 27, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Why did you want it to stay on the stump?


It's hard to chase u'r cut on a small back leaner, and I didn't want to lose scale at the mill by pulling fiber (ahh.....ahhhh.....aah-********!)


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## 2dogs (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> It's hard to chase u'r cut on a small back leaner, and I didn't want to lose scale at the mill by pulling fiber (ahh.....ahhhh.....aah-********!)


Bless you!


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## pdqdl (Jun 28, 2015)

It keeps the bark free of rocks & dirt by preventing the tree from sliding down the hill.

Shucks. I thought evrbody knew that.


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## Cope1024 (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> IDK, it's not gum, pine, hackberry or oak. Those are the only ones I can ID.
> Thanks, I was thinking about how to most accurately set my hinge thickness (I did the back first), and first put in a vertical bore about where I thought it should be, then the top and undercut.
> The gas can is just in case I needed the ported 394. J/K, those trees are right by my house, so no "Tru-fuel-canteen" mix carriers needed.
> I didn't take pics of the hackberry that didn't turn and hung up. Had to bore in and out the bottom three times until it finally fell thru. Amateur.



I went through Hockley yesterday morning going to and from Camp Allen. Thought about you and rolled down the window, but didn't hear a saw going.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 28, 2015)

Cope1024 said:


> I went through Hockley yesterday morning going to and from Camp Allen. Thought about you and rolled down the window, but didn't hear a saw going.


Only because I didn't need the Monkey-Logic 394. That saw can easily be heard in the Heights with a north wind
(20 miles away, for you poor, unfortunate Non-Texans)


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## Bwildered (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Had to fall one this afternoon 180 degrees from the lean. Could have swung it 90 degrees, but it would have hung up. Since I don't have Bitz skills I did it the lame way.View attachment 432872
> 
> Threw in a block face for no good reason, but it kept it on the stump pretty good
> View attachment 432890


Now that's magic! How did you do all that cutting with out getting one speck of sawdust on even one blade of grass?
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 28, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> My elm is bigger!View attachment 432917


Tree hugger!
Thansk


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## HuskStihl (Jun 28, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Now that's magic! How did you do all that cutting with out getting one speck of sawdust on even one blade of grass?
> Thansk


I'm using a "mulching chain"


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## HuskStihl (Jun 28, 2015)

5 trees, no fence repair........miracle


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## HuskStihl (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> The problem is gravity. On a conventional, gravity helps the angled cut not go long. On the Humboldt, gravity tries to pull the undercut long, which is death, unless you can comfortably vertically bore it into a block face. As a part timer, I intentionally try to miss the far corner a little short. If I do, it's a 30 second fix. Resist the temptation to chase u'r cuts if you miss long.


From today, missed short. If it matters I'll nibble another slice from the far side undercut. This tree was only going one direction, so I didn't bother


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## pdqdl (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> View attachment 433035
> 
> 5 trees, no fence repair........miracle



Nonsense. I never hit a fence (anymore). Never compromise, and your trees will go where you want them to.

I suspect you just forgot to push the "negligence-on" button.


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## pdqdl (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> From today, missed short. ...



Have you ever considered making the undercut first, then finishing with the straight top cut? Not only is it a bit easier to gauge than the undercut, when you have matched up the cuts the wedge falls out announcing that you are done (or missed on the low side). This is an added advantage, particularly on big face-cut wedges that have a tendency to fall on the saw or the cutter when they are turned loose.


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## Cope1024 (Jun 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> View attachment 433035
> 
> 5 trees, no fence repair........miracle



Nice work, I need to find something to cut down, even if it's in my neighbor's yard.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 28, 2015)

I had one back leaner that was very tall, but prolly 8-10 inches. Started by boring in from the back, almost all the way to the front, put in a back cut, incorporating the bore, got a wedge in the bore (doesn't bottom out this way), open face, and wedge it over.


It works well. I learned it from a Mike. I can't remember if it was handsome mike, or NQSHM


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 29, 2015)

I finaly found somebody who know's what they are doing.


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## square1 (Jun 29, 2015)

Hey! I know what I'm doing! Yesterday I felled a massive 5" dead ash with the top busted out 360 degrees from it's lean with just cuts, no wedges


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## Bwildered (Jun 29, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I finaly found somebody who know's what they are doing.View attachment 433135


I can tell he's skilled, come down from the rough in 3120 tool, to the delicate fix out chainsaw.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> View attachment 433035
> 
> 5 trees, no fence repair........miracle


That one on the right with the white blotches on the bark could be in the too hard basket, it got fence flattener written all over it. LOL
Thansk


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> That one on the right with the white blotches on the bark could be in the too hard basket, it got fence flattener written all over it. LOL
> Thansk


I'm thinning so I can mow more easily. The top of that hackberry is so far over that fence I'd have to hire a climber to not destroy stuff.


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## Bwildered (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I'm thinning so I can mow more easily. The top of that hackberry is so far over that fence I'd have to hire a climber to not destroy stuff.


Or a gun soft Dutchman cutter! LOL if it doesn't go too well at least you won't have to go way down the end of the paddock to get into that block!
Thansk


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> From today, missed short. If it matters I'll nibble another slice from the far side undercut. This tree was only going one direction, so I didn't bother



Looks like you have lost some weight packin those 90cc saws around ,good job ,and turn that H screw in a bit ,your smokin us out in here


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

Bwildered said:


> Or a gun soft Dutchman cutter! LOL if it doesn't go too well at least you won't have to go way down the end of the paddock to get into that block!
> Thansk


Troof!


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Looks like you have lost some weight packin those 90cc saws around ,good job ,and turn that H screw in a bit ,your smokin us out in here


I actually did retune later that day. I was also wearing a "man-T" with a built in brazier/corset. Distributes my fat a little better.


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## 2dogs (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> From today, missed short. If it matters I'll nibble another slice from the far side undercut. This tree was only going one direction, so I didn't bother



Hey doc nice vid! If I were you I would swamp out those little suckers around that tree, they can grab the chain when you're moving around. Also I would not walk backwards even on a lawn. The face screen, is it for decoration? Looks like you had a very sharp chain. What will you do about the stumps?

It's weird seeing grass so green. Collyfornia's new state motto is Brown is the New green.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 29, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Hey doc nice vid! If I were you I would swamp out those little suckers around that tree, they can grab the chain when you're moving around. Also I would not walk backwards even on a lawn. The face screen, is it for decoration? Looks like you had a very sharp chain. What will you do about the stumps?
> 
> It's weird seeing grass so green. Collyfornia's new state motto is Brown is the New green.



why don't you tell him to put on some chaps while your at it  they are suitable for the weekend warriors after all


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## 2dogs (Jun 29, 2015)

Chaps are always a good idea. Why don't you tell him yourself?


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## Marshy (Jun 29, 2015)

My wife's going to kill me when she finds out about this. Its taken 3 broom handles, a spade shovel, the rake, and a garden hoe to master the soft dutchman with my hacksaw, am I qualified to run a saw now?


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## Big_Wood (Jun 29, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Chaps are always a good idea. Why don't you tell him yourself?



i'm afraid he might crush me. i still don't know whether he is that big guy in his avatar or the midget in the video. once i know for sure he is that weak midget i'll start lip'n him off from far away more LOL. i see john is getting better with the big saws if that is him and can actual do more with them then just watch them idle after his wife starts them. you can still see he is a bit weak by the way he struggles to keep his cuts level. the saw weight gets the best of him before he can get the weight on his dawgs. poor little guy. his 394 is also running way to lean  if he fattened it up it might actually come close to keeping up with a stock one


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## Marshy (Jun 29, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm afraid he might crush me. i still don't know whether he is that big guy in his avatar or the midget in the video. i see john is getting better with the big saws if that is him and can actual do more with them then just watch them idle after his wife starts them. you can still see he is a bit weak by the way he struggles to keep his cuts level. the saw weight gets the best of him before he can get the weight on his dawgs. poor little guy. his 394 is also running way to lean  if he fattened it up it might actually come close to keeping up with a stock one


 I'd recommend more oil. Keeps the ticks away too.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 29, 2015)

Marshy said:


> I'd recommend more oil. Keeps the ticks away too.



jon can't be told though. he's to set in his ways especially with his 100:1 gary goo mix.


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## 2dogs (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I actually did retune later that day. I was also wearing a "man-T" with a built in brazier/corset. Distributes my fat a little better.


TMI!


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Hey doc nice vid! If I were you I would swamp out those little suckers around that tree, they can grab the chain when you're moving around. Also I would not walk backwards even on a lawn. The face screen, is it for decoration? Looks like you had a very sharp chain. What will you do about the stumps?
> 
> It's weird seeing grass so green. Collyfornia's new state motto is Brown is the New green.


Thanks for the tips. Sadly I use the face screen mostly for weed eating. I'm poorly safety conscious

The stumps will be handled by Mr. Lester, who owns an old bogie skidder that he converted to a boom mounted drum grinder. Runs a 454, and demolishes the stumps crazy fast. Don't tell him, but because he doesn't charge extra, but I leave them a bit high for the free mulch.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm afraid he might crush me. i still don't know whether he is that big guy in his avatar or the midget in the video. once i know for sure he is that weak midget i'll start lip'n him off from far away more LOL. i see john is getting better with the big saws if that is him and can actual do more with them then just watch them idle after his wife starts them. you can still see he is a bit weak by the way he struggles to keep his cuts level. the saw weight gets the best of him before he can get the weight on his dawgs. poor little guy. his 394 is also running way to lean  if he fattened it up it might actually come close to keeping up with a stock one


5'10", 190 Lip off all you want, I'm too pathetically small to stop you.
That was the 288, saw genius, which is my small saw.

Not being able to keep my tip up isn't a strength issue, it's a question of blood flow, and I understand it is common in men my age.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

On a happy note, new chokers!


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## Big_Wood (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> 5'10", 190 Lip off all you want, I'm too pathetically small to stop you.
> That was the 288, saw genius, which is my small saw.
> 
> Not being able to keep my tip up isn't a strength issue, it's a question of blood flow, and I understand it is common in men my age.



i wasn't paying attention enough to see whether it was the 288 or 394. either way, yer running that saw way to lean jon LOL i'm starting to realize why there are getting to be so many mosquitoes up here. you smoke'n them all out so they are migrating north . i'm 6' and 210 so not enough size difference to matter. it'll have to be a battle of wits then


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i wasn't paying attention enough to see whether it was the 288 or 394. either way, yer running that saw way to lean jon LOL i'm starting to realize why there are getting to be so many mosquitoes up here. you smoke'n them all out so they are migrating north . i'm 6' and 210 so not enough size difference to matter. it'll have to be a battle of wits then


 Wait a minute! That BMX290MS170 guy said it was too rich?!?


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## Big_Wood (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Wait a minute! That BMX290MS170 guy said it was too rich?!?



yes, he is correct. i don't even run a 394/395 close to that rich even when milling.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> View attachment 433186
> On a happy note, new chokers!


As a great man once said ,you know where those straps belong .....
chokers are made of cable steel sir


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

What say ye?


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## Greenthorn (Jun 29, 2015)

Not that I am an exspurt, but you needed to piss rev some more.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> As a great man once said ,you know where those straps belong .....
> chokers are made of cable steel sir
> View attachment 433187


Ya, but metal is sooooo heavy

I just figured out that westie meant "way too rich" not "way too lean". That morning I had richened the L to start easier and forgot to compensate with the H. Fixed it later that afternoon. That saw revs higher than I think a old 288 was meant to when tuned feisty, and I always remember that Clinton's ported 288 grenaded on him, so I keep it a bit rich


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## Big_Wood (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> What say ye?




we all know that isn't you. that guy managed to start that saw  i'd run it a bit leaner even but that is exceptable for a 288 for sure. probably just that stupid POS throttle lever design not letting it go to full bore. my peve of the 288.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

It is annoying that the longer you stay at full throttle the faster it gets


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## Moparmyway (Jun 29, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> It is annoying that the longer you stay at full throttle the faster it gets


Lean the low a little


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 29, 2015)

If you guys want to be pro loggers, you have to learn to fall properly.


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## pdqdl (Jun 29, 2015)

That heavy farmers jack will go nicely with the giant nail we are supposed to carry around to drive in the wedges with. Would the giant nail fit in the handle of the jack to give it more leverage?


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## huskihl (Jun 29, 2015)

pdqdl said:


> That heavy farmers jack will go nicely with the giant nail we are supposed to carry around to drive in the wedges with. Would the giant nail fit in the handle of the jack to give it more leverage?


If my wife would carry that jack for me, I'd use it too. Jack over one shoulder, ice spud (jack handle) over the other


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## weedkilla (Jun 29, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 433247
> If you guys want to be pro loggers, you have to learn to fall properly.View attachment 433245
> View attachment 433246


I don't wanna be a pro logger. 

Anything that involves those mongrel hi lift jacks is unfailingly a bad time.


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## Greenthorn (Jun 29, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 433247
> If you guys want to be pro loggers, you have to learn to fall properly.View attachment 433245
> View attachment 433246



That is phucking hilarious, I have actually used that technique on 2 trees, Yep,..... I'm a farmer hack...and proud of it. I'm gonna guess and say there ain't but 20 foot of tree there.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 29, 2015)

Yup, they call me Billy Jack now, it brings a whole new dimension to jacking your lumber.
These timber tools come in handy. Lol


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## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2015)

Moparmyway said:


> Lean the low a little


It could go a little leaner on the L, but it is such a ***** to start then.


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## RedFir Down (Jun 30, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> we all know that isn't you. that guy managed to start that saw  i'd run it a bit leaner even but that is exceptable for a 288 for sure. probably just that stupid POS throttle lever design not letting it go to full bore. my peve of the 288.


It is annoy when they dont open all the way up. I have found that if you slide a piece of automotive fuel line over the knob at the end of the throttle shaft that remedies the problem. You might have already know that though Shane.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 30, 2015)

RedFir Down said:


> It is annoy when they dont open all the way up. I have found that if you slide a piece of automotive fuel line over the knob at the end of the throttle shaft that remedies the problem. You might have already know that though Shane.



the only thing is when you do that the saw revs up whenever you rest the bar tip on something. the mounts flex and push the throttle lever on carb. it's a POS setup. no excuses or fixes can be made for it LOL HUSKY ****ED UP! if they would have just stayed with the 181 styles setup. heck i could make do with that on all new saws even. the wire you could bend any which way you wanted for best workability.


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## RedFir Down (Jun 30, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> the only thing is when you do that the saw revs up whenever you rest the bar tip on something. the mounts flex and push the throttle lever on carb. it's a POS setup. no excuses or fixes can be made for it LOL HUSKY ****ED UP! if they would have just stayed with the 181 styles setup. heck i could make do with that on all new saws even. the wire you could bend any which way you wanted for best workability.


Good point. I guess I haven't really noticed the plate being cracked open when the bar tip is resting on a log, I have only did this to a few 288's though.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 30, 2015)

RedFir Down said:


> Good point. I guess I haven't really noticed the plate being cracked open when the bar tip is resting on a log, I have only did this to a few 288's though.



i have received many 288's where someone tried the fuel hose trick and everyone revs up when the bar nose is rested on wood. i hate it. i'm done with the 2 series though so it's not a problem anymore. LOL a 288 can be improved but you gotta use a real thin piece of line over the throttle roller.


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## RedFir Down (Jun 30, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm done with the 2 series though so it's not a problem anymore.


That comment is totally absurd, Shane! 
Liable to get yourself banned for that one.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 30, 2015)

RedFir Down said:


> That comment is totally absurd, Shane!
> Liable to get yourself banned for that one.



LOL i know aye . i still like working on them once in a while but they are retired as work saws to me.


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## RedFir Down (Jun 30, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> LOL i know aye . i still like working on them once in a while but they are retired as work saws to me.


I agree... they are getting a little long in the tooth.


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## Big_Wood (Jun 30, 2015)

RedFir Down said:


> I agree... they are getting a little long in the tooth.



i got a 266xp under the bench right now. it's my BIL's. i sold it to him about 1o years ago before i was even with the wife. it finally took a dump with very minor scoring on the exhaust side. not bad considering his only income is firewood cutting with that one saw! not to mention his saws get neglected to hell, never get air filter cleanings or anything. i'll go over it, clean up top end, and send it back for another 10 year run. LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 30, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> LOL i know aye . i still like working on them once in a while but they are retired as work saws to me.


Reported!


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## cgraham1 (Jun 30, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> LOL i know aye . i still like working on them once in a while but they are retired as work saws to me.


What's a "work" saw? I only got two kinds of saws... play saws, and shelf queens.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 30, 2015)

I did some serious logging today.


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## Trx250r180 (Jun 30, 2015)

Your wolly buggers are on backwards ...


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 30, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Your wolly buggers are on backwards ...


Evens out the wear .Lol


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## Big_Wood (Jun 30, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> I did some serious logging today.View attachment 433343



i don't see a bottle of JD on the trike, couldn't have been that serious.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 30, 2015)

The JD was hidden in a hollow stump. Lol


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## Big_Wood (Jul 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> The JD was hidden in a hollow stump. Lol



i thought you were gonna say Bob was with you and he was taking a swig while taking the pic LOL


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