# A new Madill



## StihlKiwi (Jun 21, 2012)

The first new Madill 124 produced in 5 years has just gone into service in the North Island. It was manufactured here in NZ under licence.
Its good to see new yarders being built, and apparently the company that built it have plans to redo the 120 and 172 as well


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## slowp (Jun 21, 2012)

Pictures if you can, please.


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## OlympicYJ (Jun 21, 2012)

Pictures pretty please with a cherry on top


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 21, 2012)

Seeing as you asked so nicely I found a video instead

First New Zealand Built Madill 124 in Operation.mov - YouTube


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## KYLogger (Jun 21, 2012)

Awsome! I want one.......(small steps Tom, small steps) LOL
Thanks for posting the video!

Tom


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## bert0168 (Jun 21, 2012)

So please explain how a swing yarder works.
How do they get the grapple to different parts of the strip?
I can't figure out how the machine is able to swing and still maintain the main cable on a non mobile anchor point.


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 21, 2012)

bert0168 said:


> So please explain how a swing yarder works.
> How do they get the grapple to different parts of the strip?
> I can't figure out how the machine is able to swing and still maintain the main cable on a non mobile anchor point.



Swing yarders essentially do the same job as a tower, but can work on smaller landings as they swing and land the stems beside the machine instead of in front of it – this allows them to sit right at the edge of a landing so they can see the setting and steer the grapple. The grapple is like most other carriage systems, it’s pulled out into the setting by a tailrope.
Im not really sure what you mean about maintaining the cable on a non-mobile tailhold while swinging? Most swing yarders use mobile tailholds, like this one is doing, especially when grappling.
Someone else could probably explain this more, my brains not working


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## slowp (Jun 21, 2012)

You can slack off the skyline so the yarder can swing even when tied off to a stump for a tailhold. 

Or are you wondering about the guylines?


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## stikine (Jun 21, 2012)

The guylines that anchor the machine pass through a separate gantry tower which allows the yarder to turn on axis, after the running skyline is slacked off.


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## bert0168 (Jun 21, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Swing yarders essentially do the same job as a tower, but can work on smaller landings as they swing and land the stems beside the machine instead of in front of it – this allows them to sit right at the edge of a landing so they can see the setting and steer the grapple. The grapple is like most other carriage systems, it’s pulled out into the setting by a tailrope.
> Im not really sure what you mean about maintaining the cable on a non-mobile tailhold while swinging? Most swing yarders use mobile tailholds, like this one is doing, especially when grappling.
> Someone else could probably explain this more, my brains not working





slowp said:


> You can slack off the skyline so the yarder can swing even when tied off to a stump for a tailhold.
> 
> Or are you wondering about the guylines?



Sort of both. I figured it has a stump tailhold or does is it tailed off to another machine on top of the side that can move along to allow the grapple to get to the entire width at the top of the side?

I imagine with a stump tail hold, the grapple looses it's ability to cover from side to side of the lay as it got closer to an immobile tailhold, right?


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 21, 2012)

bert0168 said:


> Sort of both. I figured it has a stump tailhold or does is it tailed off to another machine on top of the side that can move along to allow the grapple to get to the entire width at the top of the side?
> 
> I imagine with a stump tail hold, the grapple looses it's ability to cover from side to side of the lay as it got closer to an immobile tailhold, right?



It has a mobile tailhold (the yellow digger in the video). Instead of time-consuming line shifts you just move the tailhold along. The yarder can slew side to side to move the grapple laterally a little bit, but like you said, this lateral movement get smaller the closer the grapple gets to the tailhold


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## bert0168 (Jun 21, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> It has a mobile tailhold (the yellow digger in the video). Instead of time-consuming line shifts you just move the tailhold along. The yarder can slew side to side to move the grapple laterally a little bit, but like you said, this lateral movement get smaller the closer the grapple gets to the tailhold



I wasn't sure if that track machine in the beginning was just pulling cable or was part of the setup on top. The video never showed it or at least I missed it.

Now I understand how it works


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## Humptulips (Jun 21, 2012)

Probably ruffle a few feathers with this comment but here it goes.
I really can't understand why anyone would build new grapple yarders. They are obsolete. On a perfect show like the one pictured, road on the back end for the tail machine and a lot of room up front to move around it looks pretty good. Trouble is no one would use one on that show. It would all be shovel logged. Yarders now are only used on steep shows which usually makes it tough to use a tail machine and without one it makes for a lot of narrow roads and a need for a lot of pretty decent tail stumps. I just don't see grapple yarders being used now.
They are being used with a dropline carriage and a crew and they work OK for that but I question the wisdom of building a swing yarder to basically take the place of a small tower. They cost a lot more to manufacture. I would think a small tower like a Madill 171 would be a better fit for the majority of logging shows where a yarder is needed today.
Also I don't agree with the comment that they can get by with a smaller landing. This has not been my experince.
I could be wrong. I am terrifically biased against them as they make a ton more work for the hooktender. Even though I'm worn out and I'll probably never have to deal with one again I hate to think of the extra work they have caused me.


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## madhatte (Jun 22, 2012)

Huh. If it weren't for the silly hats, that could be Kapowsin country.


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 22, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Probably ruffle a few feathers with this comment but here it goes.
> I really can't understand why anyone would build new grapple yarders. They are obsolete. On a perfect show like the one pictured, road on the back end for the tail machine and a lot of room up front to move around it looks pretty good. Trouble is no one would use one on that show. It would all be shovel logged. Yarders now are only used on steep shows which usually makes it tough to use a tail machine and without one it makes for a lot of narrow roads and a need for a lot of pretty decent tail stumps. I just don't see grapple yarders being used now.
> They are being used with a dropline carriage and a crew and they work OK for that but I question the wisdom of building a swing yarder to basically take the place of a small tower. They cost a lot more to manufacture. I would think a small tower like a Madill 171 would be a better fit for the majority of logging shows where a yarder is needed today.
> Also I don't agree with the comment that they can get by with a smaller landing. This has not been my experince.
> I could be wrong. I am terrifically biased against them as they make a ton more work for the hooktender. Even though I'm worn out and I'll probably never have to deal with one again I hate to think of the extra work they have caused me.



Obviously mileage will vary depending on species, terrain, logging practices etc but they work alright over here. Usually if the tailhold machine can't work on the cutover you can get away with pushing one track in along the back of the setting, which is no worse than tracking for a groundbased operation, and thanks to our plantation forestry theres plently of stumps for tailholds if you can't get a machine in.

The yarder in that video will probably spend most of its life in country like that, they can be quite productive. It will definitely be on a smaller landing than a tower would be as its a stems operation, so there is no processing happening on the landing.


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 22, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Huh. If it weren't for the silly hats, that could be Kapowsin country.



Silly hats is a relative thing :jester: Although I did see a full-brim helmet on the shelf the other day. Maybe they're catching on, Axmen did just start airing here again..


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## Humptulips (Jun 22, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Obviously mileage will vary depending on species, terrain, logging practices etc but they work alright over here. Usually if the tailhold machine can't work on the cutover you can get away with pushing one track in along the back of the setting, which is no worse than tracking for a groundbased operation, and thanks to our plantation forestry theres plently of stumps for tailholds if you can't get a machine in.
> 
> The yarder in that video will probably spend most of its life in country like that, they can be quite productive. It will definitely be on a smaller landing than a tower would be as its a stems operation, so there is no processing happening on the landing.



So why bother to spend the money for a swing yarder if it is all like that. That's all shovel ground. Gonna stand by my statement about landing size.


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 22, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> So why bother to spend the money for a swing yarder if it is all like that. That's all shovel ground. Gonna stand by my statement about landing size.



I watched the video again and the terrain isn't as steep as I thought it was before my coffee this morning, and yea that is more likely shovel or skidder country.

Someone must think its worth spending the money, they're building more of them. And they're not really taking the place of small towers if they're run with a grapple.


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## slowp (Jun 22, 2012)

Maybe they have a federal judge who has ordered them NOT to use any ground based system. That happened here. The hooktender learned to rig intermediate supports.

Judges are lousy at prescribing logging systems.

On the other hand, there are 'ologists and enviros who think that skidder logging is lighter on the land than yarder logging. These are people who are doing actual planning. :bang:

OK, soap box tipped over and removed.


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## madhatte (Jun 22, 2012)

slowp said:


> there are 'ologists and enviros who think that skidder logging is lighter on the land than yarder logging.



They're right... so long as they're talking about skidding on south Puget Sound glacial outwash soils made entirely of cobbles the size of golf balls, where it's too flat to get any lift with a yarder, and soil compaction is impossible. 'Course, the only place where logging like that is done is right where I work. Twenty miles in any direction and you're back in hill country where a yarder is the most sensible tool.


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## slowp (Jun 22, 2012)

madhatte said:


> They're right... so long as they're talking about skidding on south Puget Sound glacial outwash soils made entirely of cobbles the size of golf balls, where it's too flat to get any lift with a yarder, and soil compaction is impossible. 'Course, the only place where logging like that is done is right where I work. Twenty miles in any direction and you're back in hill country where a yarder is the most sensible tool.



Shhhhhhh. Don't confuse them. If one of the 'ologists read your post, it would be edited and used to prove their point for all types of ground. 

Like when I was told by one, that if subsoiling pops the roots of leave trees, that it was my fault for allowing skid trails to be too close to leave trees. We're talking SW Warshington, with tree spacings of 13 to 28 feet AFTER cutting. OOOps, soapbox needs taking away again......my bad.


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## madhatte (Jun 22, 2012)

Pretty sure I'll still be able to "yes, but" my way out of that argument.


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## slowp (Jun 22, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Pretty sure I'll still be able to "yes, but" my way out of that argument.




Um, the other person needs to be listening for you to do so. The attempt to explain the difference between a loader and a feller buncher to one planner is continuing in my absence. That would make several years of trying to do so. Still no success. I even showed him pictures!


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## madhatte (Jun 22, 2012)

slowp said:


> Um, the other person needs to be listening for you to do so.



There _is_ that. I have had similar disagreements with my F&W colleagues.


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 22, 2012)

slowp said:


> Maybe they have a federal judge who has ordered them NOT to use any ground based system. That happened here. The hooktender learned to rig intermediate supports.
> 
> Judges are lousy at prescribing logging systems.
> .



Thankfully thats not the case. Thankfully logging only requires a relatively straightforward resource consent (usually) and we don't have problems with judges etc interfering just because some greenie wants to save a tree in the middle of a forest.

Intermediate supports aren't really used in NZ but I can see how they would be useful. Do you have to hang them between 2 spars or just off one spar?


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## Humptulips (Jun 22, 2012)

Almost always an intermediate support is hung on one tree. You can use two but it is a rare occurence where it is needed. I think I only ever used two trees once.


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## LoggingEngineer (Jun 22, 2012)

Humptulips- That is shovel ground all day long! First thing I thought when I saw them getting rigged up. The landings in NZ are HUGE! One of our Engineer's from down there was up for a tour a few weeks back. I showed him some tower ground in the John's River area, and he laughed at our small landings and called them truck turnarounds. He designs all his landings right at about 150'x200'. The environmental regulations we have, that they don't cause these different landings sizes. 

All in all it sounds pretty nice in NZ, no RMZs to worry about, go ahead and clearcut thousands of acres, sidecast as much material as you want when you build a road, and have a huge landing. They also have it easy when it comes to culvert sizing and design as they don't have anadramous fish like the PNW. Of course, they don't have old growth stumps to hold yarders up, no tin hats or bucked off riggin pants....and a lot of them wear shorts in the brush with their high vis gear!


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 22, 2012)

That sums it up pretty good LoggingEngineer.
A study done last year found the average landong size had doubled in the past 20 years to 3900m[SUP]2[/SUP]. The amount of log grades cut has a lot to do with it, sometimes there can be 16-18 grades/lengths on the cutplan.

And its too hot to wear trousers to work in the summer


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## Humptulips (Jun 23, 2012)

LoggingEngineer said:


> Humptulips- That is shovel ground all day long! First thing I thought when I saw them getting rigged up. The landings in NZ are HUGE! One of our Engineer's from down there was up for a tour a few weeks back. I showed him some tower ground in the John's River area, and he laughed at our small landings and called them truck turnarounds. He designs all his landings right at about 150'x200'. The environmental regulations we have, that they don't cause these different landings sizes.
> 
> All in all it sounds pretty nice in NZ, no RMZs to worry about, go ahead and clearcut thousands of acres, sidecast as much material as you want when you build a road, and have a huge landing. They also have it easy when it comes to culvert sizing and design as they don't have anadramous fish like the PNW. Of course, they don't have old growth stumps to hold yarders up, no tin hats or bucked off riggin pants....and a lot of them wear shorts in the brush with their high vis gear!



Many is the times I would have loved to have a landing big enough to turn a truck around on.:msp_biggrin: Sometimes lucky to have enough room to walk around the front of the yarder without going over the bank.
How could you wear shorts in the brush?


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## madhatte (Jun 23, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> How could you wear shorts in the brush?



I'll just leave this here, with a wink and a nod to Kiwi ancestry.


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## OlympicYJ (Jun 23, 2012)

LoggingEngineer said:


> Humptulips- That is shovel ground all day long! First thing I thought when I saw them getting rigged up. The landings in NZ are HUGE! One of our Engineer's from down there was up for a tour a few weeks back. I showed him some tower ground in the John's River area, and he laughed at our small landings and called them truck turnarounds. He designs all his landings right at about 150'x200'. The environmental regulations we have, that they don't cause these different landings sizes.
> 
> All in all it sounds pretty nice in NZ, no RMZs to worry about, go ahead and clearcut thousands of acres, sidecast as much material as you want when you build a road, and have a huge landing. They also have it easy when it comes to culvert sizing and design as they don't have anadramous fish like the PNW. Of course, they don't have old growth stumps to hold yarders up, no tin hats or bucked off riggin pants....and a lot of them wear shorts in the brush with their high vis gear!



When they gonna let ya go to NZ Kyle? They need to reciprocate! Although if you went you might not come back... big landings, no RMZs, giant cuts, and pig Red Stags... yea that could get addicting haha although I don't see you wearing short shorts in the brush... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## StihlKiwi (Jun 24, 2012)

madhatte said:


> I'll just leave this here, with a wink and a nod to Kiwi ancestry.



We wear shorts because we are afraid of ferrets in our pants?


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 16, 2013)

*Four months on*

Here's an update on the new Madill after four months of use.

New Madill 124 Fully Operational - YouTube

A mate of mine has just started work as a harvesting supervisor for the company these guys are contracted to, so next time I see him I'll try find out what their daily productivity is now


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## mile9socounty (Jan 16, 2013)

I find this pretty interesting. Nice posts and all with a couple awesome vids. Strange, Huffman & Wright just sold a TSY 6355 to an outfit in NZ a couple months back. I think they spent a week using a heated pressure washer in the damned thing. Then it was sent up I-5 to Eugene to be taken apart cleaned to yalls specs to be shipped.


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 16, 2013)

mile9socounty said:


> I find this pretty interesting. Nice posts and all with a couple awesome vids. Strange, Huffman & Wright just sold a TSY 6355 to an outfit in NZ a couple months back. I think they spent a week using a heated pressure washer in the damned thing. Then it was sent up I-5 to Eugene to be taken apart cleaned to yalls specs to be shipped.



Sounds about right, there's gonna be a shortage of yarders here in the next ten years or so. I guess that means there will be a bunch of second hand machines bought from the PNW and refurbished


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## OlympicYJ (Jan 16, 2013)

I thought you guys were always short on yarders...


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 17, 2013)

Pretty much. There's demand for cable crews as it is, but over the next decade or so not only will the annual cut increase but a greater proportion will be coming from steep ground


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## mile9socounty (Jan 17, 2013)

So what your saying Mr. Kiwi is that in a few years yall are going to be hiring in the rigging. Man o man that would be a good gig.


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## Jacob J. (Jan 17, 2013)

mile9socounty said:


> I find this pretty interesting. Nice posts and all with a couple awesome vids. Strange, Huffman & Wright just sold a TSY 6355 to an outfit in NZ a couple months back. I think they spent a week using a heated pressure washer in the damned thing. Then it was sent up I-5 to Eugene to be taken apart cleaned to yalls specs to be shipped.



We sold a TMY-45 to an outfit in NZ also when I was with the company. I helped Dan and Steve take the cab off.


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 17, 2013)

mile9socounty said:


> So what your saying Mr. Kiwi is that in a few years yall are going to be hiring in the rigging. Man o man that would be a good gig.



There's always someone hiring somewhere. I had a quick look on Trademe just before and theres a few breaking out, falling, loader driving and skiddy jobs going


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## mile9socounty (Jan 17, 2013)

That's awesome. If it weren't for the small pond in between us. I would make a run at it. Then again, if thing's don't look up around here. I will have to find something different.


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## Humptulips (Jan 17, 2013)

So, what is this job breaking out entail. We seem to use different terms that confuse me at times.


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## Jacob J. (Jan 18, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> There's always someone hiring somewhere. I had a quick look on Trademe just before and theres a few breaking out, falling, loader driving and skiddy jobs going



I think it would be the bee's knees to spend a couple years cutting logs in NZ.


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 18, 2013)

Breaker outs work on the hill, choking logs. I can't for the life of me think of what you guys call it, its been a very long day.


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 18, 2013)

Also, i just reread the thread and should probably clarify the we do have RMZ's


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## Humptulips (Jan 21, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> Breaker outs work on the hill, choking logs. I can't for the life of me think of what you guys call it, its been a very long day.



Chokermen if they're just setting chokers, riggin' slingers if they are picking turns, spotting the rigging and setting chokers.


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## StihlKiwi (Jan 21, 2013)

We would call a rigging slinger the head breaker-out. But hell, over here yarders are haulers and skiddies don't drive skidders


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