# Kuuma wood gasification furnace?



## jimsbrain (Jan 10, 2013)

Has anyone heard of this new wood furnace. I've been checking it out and it looks pretty amazing.:msp_scared: 

I burn a superjack right now and I wish I had seen this Kuuma vaporfire prior to buying my Jack.:msp_sad:

check this link an video:

Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 High Efficiency Forced Air Indoor Wood Gasification Furnaces by Lamppa Manufacturing Inc.


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 10, 2013)

Couple of owners here very happy with them, and the company is a sponsor here, Garrett posts fairly regularly.

They should be along shortly to extol the virtues.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 10, 2013)

I take it you don't like your SJ? That's kinda surprising, I have heard very little negative about them.

There are at least 3 people (that I can think of) on here that have bought Kuumas in the last year or so, everybody seems to like them.


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## centennial60 (Jan 10, 2013)

Just curious what don't you like about your superjack? How long have you been using it?


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## Fyrebug (Jan 10, 2013)

Kuuma is a good manufacturer and a sponsor on this site as are we.

You may also want to check our furnaces. EPA tested and rated (smokeless and no creosote) with the ability to multi-fuel. theres a few users on this site also using them. 

PSG furnaces

View attachment 272556


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## lampmfg (Jan 11, 2013)

jimsbrain said:


> Has anyone heard of this new wood furnace. I've been checking it out and it looks pretty amazing.:msp_scared:
> 
> I burn a superjack right now and I wish I had seen this Kuuma vaporfire prior to buying my Jack.:msp_sad:
> 
> ...



We seem to get this a lot now :msp_biggrin: That's why it's really important that everyone does sufficient research before making a larger purchase. We have been around for many years, but didn't undergo the stringent efficiency and emissions testing ($$$$$) until 2010. We needed proof on what we knew about our furnaces capabilities. If you have any type of questions feel free to ask.


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## iowa (Jan 11, 2013)

I just installed a Kuuma Vaporfire 100 this yr. I love it. I have a 3000sq ft home and it puts out tons of heat using very little wood. I fill it in the morning and and right before bed usually. Never look at it or anything inbetween fills.. So simple it's stupid!


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## cfarms (Jan 11, 2013)

I bought a Kuuma Vaporfire 100 for the house and am on the second year. It replaced a Yukon. I could not be happier with the furnace or the guys that build them. Daryl is an amazing person to deal with. I was so impressed with the Kuuma I bought another one for my shop this fall!!! Questions? Ask....I would love to talk about this amazing furnace.


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## Uncle John (Jan 11, 2013)

Wish I had gone that route 6 or 7 yrs. ago instead of the wood eating smoke belching OWB I bought. Didn't do enough research before I leaped.


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## iowa (Jan 11, 2013)

Uncle John said:


> Wish I had gone that route 6 or 7 yrs. ago instead of the wood eating smoke belching OWB I bought. Didn't do enough research before I leaped.



Ya know I have so many people ask me why I didn't do that. And my thoughts are this. I don't want to load the furnace in the cold, wind, rain, snow, and ice! I wanna keep the heat in my house. Not lose heat transporting it.And they seem to eat a crap load of wood! Not to mention expensive to set up.


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## stihly dan (Jan 11, 2013)

jimsbrain said:


> Has anyone heard of this new wood furnace. I've been checking it out and it looks pretty amazing.:msp_scared:
> 
> I burn a superjack right now and I wish I had seen this Kuuma vaporfire prior to buying my Jack.:msp_sad:
> 
> ...



So are you thinking of buying one? Or just looking in enviously. Do a search on this site for KUUMA, you will find all the info and pics you will need.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 12, 2013)

The kuuma looks very nice...the only thing id like to see is better legs/leg bracing, and a glass door (if possible)....if that happens i may be a buyer sooner than later.


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## Uncle John (Jan 12, 2013)

iowa said:


> Ya know I have so many people ask me why I didn't do that. And my thoughts are this. I don't want to load the furnace in the cold, wind, rain, snow, and ice! I wanna keep the heat in my house. Not lose heat transporting it.And they seem to eat a crap load of wood! Not to mention expensive to set up.




You got it!


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## lampmfg (Jan 12, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> The kuuma looks very nice...the only thing id like to see is better legs/leg bracing, and a glass door (if possible)....if that happens i may be a buyer sooner than later.



You won't be seeing a glass door anytime soon it effects the efficiency more then we would like. I'm not sure what you mean about legs?


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## iowa (Jan 12, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> The kuuma looks very nice...the only thing id like to see is better legs/leg bracing, and a glass door (if possible)....if that happens i may be a buyer sooner than later.



Legs are stout. Unless you intend to throw a log chain around the furnace and drag it in. We used a 2 wheel cart and wheeled it in. Set it in place.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 12, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> You won't be seeing a glass door anytime soon it effects the efficiency more then we would like. I'm not sure what you mean about legs?



Yea i figured thats why there isnt any glass. I remember somebody bent the legs, or maybe the sheet metal at the legs, im not sure.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 12, 2013)

Please excuse my ignorance but is anyone using these to heat their water? I understand there may well be efficiency implications meaning the manufacturer may not offer this as an option, but is there any option people have used? It just strikes me that with such efficient units, why not heat water as well as air?


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## stihly dan (Jan 12, 2013)

I am heating, or preheating my water with the VF 100. I use a tempering tank. The water coming into my water heater is around 110 deg. Could get higher but the house takes 5, 20 min showers, and 3 baths a day. A NORMAL family would see higher temps I'm sure.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 12, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> I am heating, or preheating my water with the VF 100. I use a tempering tank. The water coming into my water heater is around 110 deg. Could get higher but the house takes 5, 20 min showers, and 3 baths a day. A NORMAL family would see higher temps I'm sure.


Thanks.
Is there some sort of heat exchanger you can buy and install downstream so to speak, or is there a direct connection to the furnace for this, or some other way?


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## stihly dan (Jan 12, 2013)

Yup, the H20 coil is $200 add on. Its in the furnace.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 13, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> Yup, the H20 coil is $200 add on. Its in the furnace.


Thank you. 
I've done some reading on this site and I must tip my hat to both Kuuma and the PSG guys that post here. Good info and healthy and respectful exchanges with no mud slinging.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 13, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> The kuuma looks very nice...the only thing id like to see is better legs/leg bracing, and a glass door (if possible)....if that happens i may be a buyer sooner than later.



At the risk of beating my own drum ( we pay for the privilege after all). All of our furnaces are EPA rated (meaning high efficiency, no creosote). 

They also all have a glass door with superb air wash (meaning it stays clean). Most folks tell us they like a glass door since they dont have to open it to see what's going on. Contrary to another post statement, it does not affect efficiencies since more radiant heat is allowed to come trough the glass. 

The Max Caddy is 85% efficient LHV. Provides you with the best warranty for wood furnace on the market. There is a hot water loop option, you can install an electric element and/or an oil burner to make it a stand alone furnace. The furnace is controlled by a computer with modulates the speed of the blower and is AC ready. It also works of a standard thermostat to control the heat. 

If you are tight for room it also allows you to bring the cold air return on top, right or left. Among many other things.

We always have stock (no waiting) and is less expensive than the Kuuma. Hope this helps you in your search. If you have any questions let me know.


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## lampmfg (Jan 13, 2013)

Remember when making your choice that their is no EPA test for wood furnaces and only wood stoves. When an EPA test for wood furnaces becomes available we will be there waiting with open arms. I know that if I was researching efficiencies and emissions I would like to see actual test results which we have provided. 

It seems like everytime I visit another manufacturers website I see a claimed efficiency rating with no proof. For example this week I was emailed by a potential customer seeing if our Kuuma Vapor-Fire could even compete with this 85% efficient furnace. It was hard to not laugh when responding to them.:msp_smile:


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## iowa (Jan 13, 2013)

Don't know about anyone else here. But I don't mind waiting a little bit and buy a USA made product from great people. Even if they're from Minnesota! Lol. Guaranteed you will get great service and answers when you call AND talk to the man who designed and operates the joint!


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## likesaws (Jan 13, 2013)

*Psg*

Don't know about other stove here but I have a PSG Max Caddy.
It is a great stove, I like very much. Lots of heat not much wood.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 13, 2013)

likesaws said:


> Don't know about other stove here but I have a PSG Max Caddy.
> It is a great stove, I like very much. Lots of heat not much wood.



Post some Pics if you can...


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## mizzou (Jan 13, 2013)

I was on the kuuma website today(among many others), and I thought they offered a small viewing window. I could be wrong though. Seemed like a good furnace. Need to look at psg too.


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## Como (Jan 14, 2013)

There are EPA wood boilers that claim over 100% efficiency.

Says more about the EPA methodology than anything else.

Just some comments, I am not saying it is not a good product but they need to review there advertising copy.

1. You can not burn wood without smoke, not even the most advanced lambada controlled German Boilers, it is just not possible.
2. I get worried when I see mention of sq ft as a heating load, Medieval Cathedral or Passivhaus? 10btu's per sq ft suggests nearer the latter.
3. I used to handle Intertek's Insurance programme, they would have tested it in accordance with their clients request to whatever standards specified. Now I am not saying it is the case here, but I remember reading that one OWB manufacturer used dimensional lumber for EPA testing. I am going to guess that this is not a common fuel for OWB's.
4. 10 hour burns with high efficiency, the Intertek results were on shorter burns, I would be interested to see how output varied with time, how well the controls managed variances in burn.

Just one question, something I had suppose but never looked into, I thought you needed 2000F for good gassification rather than 1000F?


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## north1 (Jan 14, 2013)

minimum 1200 F up tu 2300 F in the chamber


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

Como said:


> There are EPA wood boilers that claim over 100% efficiency.
> 
> Says more about the EPA methodology than anything else.
> 
> ...



Excellent Questions

1) EPA current methodology has nothing to do with efficiencies. It's all about emmissions. This will change in the next iteration probably in the next year or so.

2) I dont know about that boiler maker's claim to efficiencies. Depends what he's measuring. Heat exchange ability? Combustion? other parameters? Buyer beware if they do not provide what they are measuring to and to what standards.

3) It is possible to attain close to 100% efficiencies (LHV). Some European boiler MFG are close to it. But in order to do so they have to power vent it since there is not enough heat loss for natural draft. Plus they need complex electronics and stack dehumidifier in order to work properly. They are also very expensive. So your overall efficiencies and ROI is not really what it should be. If we are talking about efficiencies in terms of how much heat is retained in the house there are 3 different tests to measure this: Stack Loss, Low-Heating Value (LHV), High Heating Value (HHV). Wood stoves uses primarily Stack loss method, while furnaces and boilers uses LHV & HHV. We state both in our literature. Also keep in mind that in these 2 last methodology 'jacket loss' is not included. It means if a furnace is 80% efficient LHV it probably is even more since there is always heat radiating from the furnace itself (not in the exchanger). And since this heat stays in the house... Bonus!

4) It is possible to burn wood appliances without *visible* smoke. The current EPA emission standard for wood stoves is no more than 7.6 gr/hr. This is accomplished over 4 burn cycle. Most of that smoke is on start up. Once your firebox is up to temp you will not see any smoke. The new EPA standard for wood stove will likely be 4.5 gr/hr while for furnaces and boilers it will likely be 4.5 gr/Megajoule (gr/million BTU).

5) You are right... Sq ft specifications for wood stove is a rule of thumb at best since there are too many variables to really provide a good indication. For furnaces and boilers it is a better indicator since its a forced air unit (or Hydro unit). 

6) You are also correct. Current EPA testing for wood stoves requires cribbed dimensional BC Fir. Remember they are measuring emissions not efficiencies or BTU output. The new EPA legislation will hopefully change that. 

7) Lab tests for certifications are done with a minimum of 4 tests which are averaged. This is done under ideal conditions. Therefore Lab burn times are not indicative of the 'real' world. We've obtained 19Hrs burn time for the Max Caddy in the lab. However, we state 8-12 Hrs in our marketing material. Again too many variables to define what burn time really is.

8) The OP title is a misnomer. Neither the Kuuma or the PSG Caddy lines are gasification furnaces.

The problem with wood or rather the beauty of it is it's a non-standard fuel... Unlike gas or oil, each load, each cycle, each log is different. Therefore the difficulty to establish consumer specs such as burn time, sq ft etc... 

Hope this helps.


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## lampmfg (Jan 14, 2013)

mizzou said:


> I was on the kuuma website today(among many others), and I thought they offered a small viewing window. I could be wrong though. Seemed like a good furnace. Need to look at psg too.



The picture you are taking about is of our wood sauna stoves, which we offer a glass window for viewing. We don't offer that with our Kuuma Vapor-Fire wood furnaces.


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## mizzou (Jan 14, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> The picture you are taking about is of our wood sauna stoves, which we offer a glass window for viewing. We don't offer that with our Kuuma Vapor-Fire wood furnaces.



Thanks for the clarification. I was zipping through that part of the site, sorry.


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## iowa (Jan 14, 2013)

Don't know why you would want a window on a furnace. Usually people have them in their basement. I see my furnace twice a day. 6am and 10pm. Open-Load-Shut. Empty ashes out.


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 14, 2013)

iowa said:


> Don't know why you would want a window on a furnace. Usually people have them in their basement. I see my furnace twice a day. 6am and 10pm. Open-Load-Shut. Empty ashes out.



A window wouldn't make or break a deal for me, but I can sit and watch a fire for hours on end. It beats most of what's on the boob tube these days.

Garrett, here's a wild and crazy idea that I have no idea if it will work. How about a double paned window, regular stove glass for the inner window, and a glass with a one way mirror coating on the outside to reflect much of the heat back into the stove? If it works, you can pm me for an address to send the royalty checks to :cool2:


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## KyleOh (Jan 14, 2013)

iowa said:


> Don't know why you would want a window on a furnace. Usually people have them in their basement. I see my furnace twice a day. 6am and 10pm. Open-Load-Shut. Empty ashes out.



I sit in my basement next to the wood furnace sometimes, usually beer in hand haha


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## lampmfg (Jan 14, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> A window wouldn't make or break a deal for me, but I can sit and watch a fire for hours on end. It beats most of what's on the boob tube these days.
> 
> Garrett, here's a wild and crazy idea that I have no idea if it will work. How about a double paned window, regular stove glass for the inner window, and a glass with a one way mirror coating on the outside to reflect much of the heat back into the stove? If it works, you can pm me for an address to send the royalty checks to :cool2:



I'll see what my dad says. Does 50% off all future furnace sales sound good??


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 14, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> I'll see what my dad says. Does 50% off all future furnace sales sound good??



Just send me the test unit, and I'll put the long term reliability testing hours on it for ya. We can negotiate from there...


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## brenndatomu (Jan 14, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> A window wouldn't make or break a deal for me, but I can sit and watch a fire for hours on end. It beats most of what's on the boob tube these days.
> 
> Garrett, here's a wild and crazy idea that I have no idea if it will work. How about a double paned window, regular stove glass for the inner window, and a glass with a one way mirror coating on the outside to reflect much of the heat back into the stove? If it works, you can pm me for an address to send the royalty checks to :cool2:



Dang Steve, that sounds like a pretty good idea! I bet it would work. Might not even have to be mirrored glass, just this new "low e" glass?

I put a 1-1/2" viewing port in the door of the Yukon just so I can see whats going on. I think seeing the fire helped shorten up my learning curve a little since it's my first year with 'er.

I s'pose there's not much of a learning curve on the Kuumas though, 1. load wood 2. strike match 3. set cruise control 4. reload wood once or twice a day. Boooriiiing! Doesn't sound like much fun if ya like to fiddle with yur stove!


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## iowa (Jan 14, 2013)

brenndatomu said:


> Dang Steve, that sounds like a pretty good idea! I bet it would work. Might not even have to be mirrored glass, just this new "low e" glass?
> 
> I put a 1-1/2" viewing port in the door of the Yukon just so I can see whats going on. I think seeing the fire helped shorten up my learning curve a little since it's my first year with 'er.
> 
> I s'pose there's not much of a learning curve on the Kuumas though, 1. load wood 2. strike match 3. set cruise control 4. reload wood once or twice a day. Doesn't sound like much fun if ya like to fiddle with yur stove!



If you like messing with knobs and buttons then the kuuma isn't the furnace for you!! However, I find it a nice feature. I have more time on my hands to play with my lovely wifes buttons and knobs!!!!
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## lampmfg (Jan 14, 2013)

8) The OP title is a misnomer. Neither the Kuuma or the PSG Caddy lines are gasification furnaces.
[/QUOTE]

You don't have emissions of less than 1 gr/hr or over 99% combustion efficiency without gassifying the wood. However our's is not all at once, which is what makes it so unique...


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## Como (Jan 14, 2013)

Fyrebug said:


> Excellent Questions
> 
> 1) EPA current methodology has nothing to do with efficiencies. It's all about emmissions. This will change in the next iteration probably in the next year or so.
> 
> ...



I did a lot of research including in the UK when I was there before going the route I did.

I have not gone ultra high efficiency because of all the costs getting that extra few percentage when I have so much available wood did not seem a good idea.

I do have a new Propane Boiler which vents with plastic, when I see a Wood Boiler manufacturer, or furnace, specifying plastic chimneys then I will believe some of the more outrageous numbers.

My wood Boilers are not in the building so losses are helpful but not countable, I hope to average 85%, a few less and I will not shed tears. But that is true gassification.

I am interested in the mechanics of very long burn time and high efficiencies. It just seems counter logical.

I thought the only way you could do this with wood is by using pellets or chips.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> A window wouldn't make or break a deal for me, but I can sit and watch a fire for hours on end. It beats most of what's on the boob tube these days.
> 
> Garrett, here's a wild and crazy idea that I have no idea if it will work. How about a double paned window, regular stove glass for the inner window, and a glass with a one way mirror coating on the outside to reflect much of the heat back into the stove? If it works, you can pm me for an address to send the royalty checks to :cool2:



No Freaken way Steve. Have you been hanging out in my whiskey bottle? I $hit you not, I was thinking that same thing this weekend. I was going to send Garret an E-mail on this tonite. Boy would that have looked stupid, and pladgiaristic. Although, I would have had both pieces of glass ceramic, and used the see thru mirror, like on cop shows.


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 14, 2013)

They say great minds think alike. Apparently so do average ones


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

But at the same time? GENIUS minds must think alike at the same time. Now stop thinking of my wife like that.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> 8) The OP title is a misnomer. Neither the Kuuma or the PSG Caddy lines are gasification furnaces.



You don't have emissions of less than 1 gr/hr or over 99% combustion efficiency without gassifying the wood. However our's is not all at once, which is what makes it so unique... [/QUOTE]

Garret please stop with the near meaningless specs... I'm staring at a 32 page Max Caddy lab report not a 2 pager one. And lots of that info means nothing to the average consumer or worse yet, it can be misleading if not taken in its entirety. I dont quote volumetric flow rates, velocity, particulate catches etc... because it's near meaningless to an average consumer.

So is the the so called "combustion efficiencies". It is possible to achieve in a lab test 'combustion efficiencies' above 100% which we've done on numerous test and appliances. But really... in 'real' life this doesnt mean much. It is so much better to let your customers speak for yourself and carry the word of mouth rather than point out lab results where you and I might not even know the difference. 

As far as what gasification is... if you remember your high school chemistry lab where you put strips of wood into a test tube, heated it and got gas out of it without combusting the wood, that is true gasification. 

In time, this terms has come to mean a biomass (wood, pellet, chip) heater that has a separate combustion chamber typically with forced air to bring the temps well above what you would find in a regular furnace. This results in higher combustion temps & the advantage of this is the ability to burn less than ideal fuel. Drawback is of course a separate blower for combustion. This is used primarily for some outdoors wood boilers.

Both the PSG Caddy line and Kuuma does not use 'gasification' in either sense of the word. They use a 'secondary' burn combustion where the gases, oxygen and heat meet together to combust the gases and smoke. 

Hope this helps in the terminology department. Now... let's all get back to our beers.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

Como said:


> I do have a new Propane Boiler which vents with plastic, when I see a Wood Boiler manufacturer, or furnace, specifying plastic chimneys then I will believe some of the more outrageous numbers.



The day when God decides to make all trees identical with the same density, BTU value, moisture content etc. And you remove all bark, cut each splits identically so that even under a microscope you would not be able to tell the difference... Then stack it the same each and every load and reload with a timer in hand... Then and only then will you see venting as you describe. Which means each log would be standardized in Energy, moisture etc.. just as propane, gas & oil are. 

Until then people will be burning all kinds of stuff in their wood stoves/furnace/boiler including tires, old rubber boots, garbage and even sometimes well cured hardwood!

That is why you need venting that can take a beating...

You may want to research what is involved in testing for efficiencies for HHV, LHV and Stack Loss method and maybe you might change your mind. 

Hopes this helps.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

Ok, so my last wood stove after a 1/2 hr heating, when I looked thru the glass and saw black logs with no flame. But at the top of the stove was a massive tube of flames, was that not gasifying?


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> Ok, so my last wood stove after a 1/2 hr heating, when I looked thru the glass and saw black logs with no flame. But at the top of the stove was a massive tube of flames, was that not gasifying?



Nope... Secondary burn. All EPA wood stoves have this and would never dream of calling it 'gasification'.

I guess you could argue the gases are being burned and then call it gasification. But at some point and not to split hair terms have to means something. 

If we started to call seconday burn 'gasification' a lot of other folks would slam us pretty quick and for good reasons.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

So how much more heat, or less fuel consumption are we talking about with gasification.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> So how much more heat, or less fuel consumption are we talking about with gasification.



This is where I will readily acknowledge I know very little about gasification processes. I've talked to some outdoor boiler mfg's and from what I could gather it helps in burning wood (or other fuels) that have a high moisture content or less than ideal.

I saw a really cool wood chip boiler demo where the guy was burning horse manure mixed with straw at 35% humidity. The secondary combustion chamber looked like it had a fire tornado going on!

Wasnt cheap but it burned cleanly with such high temps.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

I saw a wood chip boiler like that. So its basicaly added air, with turbulance. I know moving air burns better. Did Hitler not have wood gasifacation cars back in the day? If so, it can't be that hard today.


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## lampmfg (Jan 14, 2013)

Fyrebug said:


> Garret please stop with the near meaningless specs... I'm staring at a 32 page Max Caddy lab report not a 2 pager one. And lots of that info means nothing to the average consumer or worse yet, it can be misleading if not taken in its entirety. I dont quote volumetric flow rates, velocity, particulate catches etc... because it's near meaningless to an average consumer.



Why don't you post that test and let everyone decide for themselves. :hmm3grin2orange: 
I don't think combustion efficiency or emissions is meaningless information.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> Why don't you post that test and let everyone decide for themselves. :hmm3grin2orange:
> I don't think combustion efficiency or emissions is meaningless information.



Then provide a concise and easy to understand way, how a lab test for combustion efficiency works and why they should care. 

I will gladly provide you with my test results the day you certify your stove to CSA B415 (or EPA). I believe we've had this conversation before.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> I saw a wood chip boiler like that. So its basicaly added air, with turbulance. I know moving air burns better. Did Hitler not have wood gasifacation cars back in the day? If so, it can't be that hard today.



I dont know about Hitler but I believe the French had something like that early in the past century. Looked like a small locomotive, as heavy as one and slow as mollasses. Wonder why it did not last?


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## lampmfg (Jan 14, 2013)

Fyrebug said:


> Then provide a concise and easy to understand way, how a lab test for combustion efficiency works and why they should care.
> 
> I will gladly provide you with my test results the day you certify your stove to CSA B415 (or EPA). I believe we've had this conversation before.



It shows me that our furnace design is able to achieve nearly perfect combustion efficiency. The customers should care because - (Combustion Efficiency-is a measure of how efficiently a device consumes fuel. Ideally, combustion efficiency would be measured at 100%, meaning that the fuel was completely consumed. In practice, this level of combustion efficiency is impossible to achieve, but it's possible to come close. The lower the combustion efficiency, the less efficient the device is, making it expensive to run, wasteful of fuel, and harmful for the environment.)

Kind of like why someone should care that you certified a wood furnace using a EPA test for wood stoves.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

opcorn:and the gloves are offopcorn:


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> The lower the combustion efficiency, the less efficient the device is, making it expensive to run, wasteful of fuel, and harmful for the environment.)



Mmmmm... should re-check your facts. Think it over, research and re-post.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

Where is krappie keith to otstir:up


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## lampmfg (Jan 14, 2013)

Trusting this guy a little more then you but I could be wrong? Combustion Efficiency


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> opcorn:and the gloves are offopcorn:



Are you goading me?!? :msp_scared:

Naw... They're only furnaces. Good thing we're not talking 'bout guns, politics or religion!

Garrett, all I'm sayin' is if you say our EPA rating is not valuable... Let's say I agree with you on this one. The same argument can be made with every little lab spec you bring to the table. At the end of the day they are good marketing tools. Why else would you bother to test your furnace anyway? Exactly... to quote some specs out of context so you can make more sales. 

You know what is an even greater selling tool? Letting your customers brag about your product on your behalf. On this site the specs argument doesnt carry as much weight. Let's save it to bash our competitors who are not AS sponsors.

Otherwise it becomes a 'mine is bigger than yours' argument. (Another one you cant win BTW... :msp_w00t


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## Como (Jan 14, 2013)

Drive On Wood! | Woodgas Power.

Vehicle wood gassifying, not what we are talking about here, but a very interesting read.

There is effectively standardised wood, you chip it or pelletise it.

But unless there is something weird coming along you will not see plastic venting for wood systems. You would need a condensing system which is again contra logical for wood.

With wood you have to first burn it at very high temperatures, temperatures that would melt a metal burn chamber and then extract as much energy as possible before it exits.


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## laynes69 (Jan 14, 2013)

I based my decision on the EPA logo. I dont care about a few grams of smoke, it's not going to cause a chimney fire or make me burn a considerable difference in wood. I've seen many stoves where they vary from 7 grams of smoke per hour to 1 gram, and I would choose any of them. All I care is they are EPA certified. I've never seen someone over on hearth in the stove room say "Stay away from that, it's two grams higher". It's what appeals to the consumer. I love the design of the heat exchanger on the Caddy, along with the glass door, and firebox design. Just like users of the Kuuma like the computer control and ease of use. Some like soapstone, others cast or steel. As long as the unit is a clean burner, it doesn't matter. Oh yeah, I have about 1400 invested in my furnace, I can't complain.


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## Como (Jan 14, 2013)

My Boilers are not EPA stamped, one of my stoves is. The Boilers are much more efficient, clean burning etc.


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## stihly dan (Jan 14, 2013)

NO, you can't listen to many customers. Say someone has driven a yugo all his life, then gets a kia. Well he says there the best on earth, so should I trade my bmw for the kia? Cold hard facts, and an example of how it works to make it better. Then us customers can make an apples to apples, informed educated decision.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 14, 2013)

Agree with Laynes above.

The reason EPA or CSA emission testing requires 4 test and average out the results is because wood is a non standard fuel (cant repeat this enough). Therefore each load is different. Even in the posted Kuuma results there are significant differences in efficiencies etc.. between 2 tests.

HPBA did a study a few years ago where the same stove was sent to half a dozen different 'certified' lab who followed the same prescribed protocols. The results? The very same stove had a difference of over 4 grams/hour between the lowest and highest score.

It busted out and did not qualify in one lab and passed with flying color in another. The lesson: despite the best technology, wood is not a standard fuel. And small things in a lab setting will make a big difference. But guess what? Nobody in their right mind would burn a wood stove at home the way it burns in a lab.

That's why focusing on one particular result such as combustion efficiency does not tell the whole picture.

However, for the consumer it is useful to know that a MFG spend the research, development, energy, resources and money to test their unit so they can produce the best product they can and prove it. Certification add a certain level of certainty in the consumer's mind.

By the way, do you know how big a gram is? It's very small and the difference between 5 grams per hour and 1 gram per hour cannot be measured by eyeballing it. Either way, there is no smoke coming out of the pipe.


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## KyleOh (Jan 14, 2013)

Back to the unlimited money thread...I would buy both you guys stoves, one for each house, just because this thread is so awesome. Thank you.


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## mizzou (Jan 15, 2013)

KyleOh said:


> Back to the unlimited money thread...I would buy both you guys stoves, one for each house, just because this thread is so awesome. Thank you.



Yeah, I'd have three wings on my house and get these 2 and 1 from Keith to see which one actually worked best.:msp_biggrin:

Spread the wealth a little.


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## lampmfg (Jan 15, 2013)

mizzou said:


> Yeah, I'd have three wings on my house and get these 2 and 1 from Keith to see which one actually worked best.:msp_biggrin:
> 
> Spread the wealth a little.



One thing I can absolutely guarantee is it's not Keith's


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## mizzou (Jan 15, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> One thing I can absolutely guarantee is it's not Keith's



True, he seems to be their "rep" on here though.:msp_unsure:


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## Fyrebug (Jan 15, 2013)

mizzou said:


> Yeah, I'd have three wings on my house and get these 2 and 1 from Keith to see which one actually worked best.:msp_biggrin:
> 
> Spread the wealth a little.



I would personally buy one from Keith just to get the entertainment value out of him. More hot air coming from his mouth than any of his furnaces! :msp_scared:


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 15, 2013)

Fyrebug said:


> I would personally buy one from Keith just to get the entertainment value out of him. More hot air coming from his mouth than any of his furnaces! :msp_scared:



I know I wanted a glass door on my next furnace, but my next furnace wont be yours anymore. Im also skeptical on the "computer control" sounds like something else to go wrong to me. 

Why do these threads always end up like this? Do you really think this helps your sales? 

Your testing means nothing to me, either of you. Ill do my own testing. I have a non-epa, cheap POS wood furnace and I have no problem getting "smokeless" burns.


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## stihly dan (Jan 15, 2013)

The computer is awesome, If it does break, then you use it like the old fashioned furnaces. I won't say anything about efficiency yet. But it makes wood burning easy, my wife evan uses it( and that is saying something) It is so nice to wake up in the morning to, not a full unit of coals, or an empty cold furnace.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 15, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> I know I wanted a glass door on my next furnace, but my next furnace wont be yours anymore. Im also skeptical on the "computer control" sounds like something else to go wrong to me.
> 
> Why do these threads always end up like this? Do you really think this helps your sales?
> 
> Your testing means nothing to me, either of you. Ill do my own testing. I have a non-epa, cheap POS wood furnace and I have no problem getting "smokeless" burns.



Sorry you took exception to this going back and forth. Garrett and I are actually friendly and praise each other's product. They have a good furnace and so do we. 

Most of what we discuss has a fair amount of education value and many of the users on this forum actually have known us for the past couple of years and bought our products. They also know we are paid to be biased so they take our banter with a grain of salt. 

If you were not here a couple of years ago when Crappie Keith was also an AS Forum sponsor you might get the inside joke. It's not mean... you had to be there.

Finally, unlike other forums the paid sponsors are allowed to brag, market, sell their products on forum posts. So we make the most of it. As long as we keep it respectful and good humor it also provide a certain entertainment value.

All the best with your furnace.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 15, 2013)

Fyrebug said:


> Sorry you took exception to this going back and forth. Garrett and I are actually friendly and praise each other's product. They have a good furnace and so do we.
> 
> Most of what we discuss has a fair amount of education value and many of the users on this forum actually have known us for the past couple of years and bought our products. They also know we are paid to be biased so they take our banter with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...



Ive been here longer than you, i have delt with keith personally, he has helped me with my problems without a sales pitch. The best thing about his furnaces is that they are simple, no fancy bells and whistles, and they dont cost over $4000.


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## iowa (Jan 15, 2013)

I talked to Keith for over an hour on the phone last yr when I was looking around for a wood furnace. He was very nice on the phone. However, he put down caddy, and kuuma constantly. Stating that there's no way to get emission #s like that etc without creosote build up. Constantly cursing etc. Yes some things he said were true , but bashing someone else's product without ever having first hand using it is bad. 

I never bought a furnace last yr and decided to think things over. I finally decided on the kuuma. And I'm proudto say I'm glad that I did. I never see smoke coming out of my chimney and my house is toasty warm. The only time I see smoke is when I load it. That lasts a max of 15 min.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 15, 2013)

On the Kuuma video i seen it was mentioned that the flue temps are between 200 -300 degrees. Id like to know how you can run such low flue temps and not get condensation. I have a hard time getting my flue temps to stay constantly over 250 degrees, If i dont, i have condensation up the a$$. For those of you who dont know, Condesation will ruin your chimney in no time! not to mention its a mess!


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## stihly dan (Jan 15, 2013)

You may not have as much draft going up the chimney. They may be using more air extracting more heat out of it. So there air may go out the chimney faster, rather than slowely draft out cooling down evan more. These are not facts just my thoughts.


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## iowa (Jan 15, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> On the Kuuma video i seen it was mentioned that the flue temps are between 200 -300 degrees. Id like to know how you can run such low flue temps and not get condensation. I have a hard time getting my flue temps to stay constantly over 250 degrees, If i dont, i have condensation up the a$$. For those of you who dont know, Condesation will ruin your chimney in no time! not to mention its a mess!



I don't think I've seen my flue over 200deg and that's 8" away from stove. Right after that is my baro damper T. If I look inside my flue there is nothing but very fine greyish colored dust particles in there. NO condensation! No creosote. I will take pics if you want..... And this has been running on the low setting since running in November. 

If I open the door on that thing halfway through the burn its so dang hot! You can't hardly stand 2' from it. Its amazing to say the least.


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## lampmfg (Jan 15, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> On the Kuuma video i seen it was mentioned that the flue temps are between 200 -300 degrees. Id like to know how you can run such low flue temps and not get condensation. I have a hard time getting my flue temps to stay constantly over 250 degrees, If i dont, i have condensation up the a$$. For those of you who dont know, Condesation will ruin your chimney in no time! not to mention its a mess!



This is true about our flue temperatures.


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## centennial60 (Jan 15, 2013)

iowa said:


> I don't think I've seen my flue over 200deg and that's 8" away from stove.



How are you measuring the flue temp? magnetic surface or an internal probe type? I'm guessing magnetic being that low. Pretty impressive! Have you ever tried measuring the temp of the hot air coming out of the top of the furnace?


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 15, 2013)

centennial60 said:


> How are you measuring the flue temp? magnetic surface or an internal probe type? I'm guessing magnetic being that low. Pretty impressive! Have you ever tried measuring the temp of the hot air coming out of the top of the furnace?



Probe....Im heating the house no problem its just really low flue temps, my chimney is outside so that makes it worse. I should clarify that its more like 300 - 500 in the flue pipe but once it hits the chimney it drops instantly. I can keep it from condensing but then it but then i sacrifice burn times and wood. Not trying to hi-jack this thread with my problems, im dealing with them myself. 

But id like to know how Kuuma can have such low flue temps and not condense?


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## Como (Jan 16, 2013)

ziggo_2 said:


> Probe....Im heating the house no problem its just really low flue temps, my chimney is outside so that makes it worse. I should clarify that its more like 300 - 500 in the flue pipe but once it hits the chimney it drops instantly. I can keep it from condensing but then it but then i sacrifice burn times and wood. Not trying to hi-jack this thread with my problems, im dealing with them myself.
> 
> But id like to know how Kuuma can have such low flue temps and not condense?



You can't.

_At temperatures below 250 degrees F creosote will condense on the surfaces of stove pipes or chimney flues.When the temperature gets below 150 degrees F the creosote deposit will be thick, sticky and similar to tar. This tends to trap carbon from smoke which dries and bakes inside pipes and flues. This flaky substance is very flammable. _

Chimney Problems

Now with Propane and NG high Efficiency furnaces, Boiler etc you will see the term condense used. That does produces very low exhaust temperatures allowing plastic pipe for a chimney but also requires a drain for the moisture that condenses. 

I do not know of any wood system that condenses, the technical aspects are beyond me, my gut tells me it is not possible or if theoretically possible worth the consequent problems.

My guess is that it is a question of temperature measurement. Insulated pipe?


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## cfarms (Jan 16, 2013)

mizzou said:


> Yeah, I'd have three wings on my house and get these 2 and 1 from Keith to see which one actually worked best.:msp_biggrin:
> 
> Spread the wealth a little.



Just so you guys know, Keith doesn't work with Yukon anymore. He has moved out of town.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 16, 2013)

Como said:


> You can't.
> 
> 
> *My guess is that it is a question of temperature measurement. Insulated pipe*?





THIS... Measuring flue temps with a magnetic stick on thermometer or a probe type that has it's coil outside the pipe (condor flue thermometer) can give VERY inaccurate readings, especially if you're using double wall connector pipe. The only readings I would trust are a thermocouple type inside the connector pipe, or probe type that has it's coil inside the probe itself (Tel-Tru or similar). 

I had a condor probe type installed in double wall connector pipe about 18" above the stove and it read low all the time and was slow to respond. I later discovered part of the reason for that is it was installed in a telescoping section of pipe which is 4 layers of steel not just two. That said I much prefer a probe type made by Tel-Tru for the big green egg - about $20 and reads to 1000f. Accurate and fast response as long as you dont over temp it.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 16, 2013)

cfarms said:


> Just so you guys know, Keith doesn't work with Yukon anymore. He has moved out of town.



I was wondering that....since i never see him post anywhere anymore.


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## mizzou (Jan 16, 2013)

cfarms said:


> Just so you guys know, Keith doesn't work with Yukon anymore. He has moved out of town.



I wondered, last post I saw wasn't too long ago, but was about people trying to stop anyone from burning wood. I suspect he still lurks.:msp_sneaky:


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## iowa (Jan 16, 2013)

OK. So the questions were how I was measuring my flue temp. I do have a magnetic temp on my SINGLE WALL flue pipe. I have regular black stove pipe running from furnace to my wall thimble. Then it's double wall selkirk 6" stainless from wall T thimble all the way up.

I do look at the magnetic temp gauge. Is it accurate? No. So I have been using my infered thermometer. Last night after loading it I was getting 180-190 deg allong the top side of my stove pipe. This probably isn't the hottest it will be as it wasn't in the middle of a burn, but I will try and get some reading then. I do have a temp probe and will drill a hole 8" from the furnace and insert it. See what it measures that way. 

I will also try and take pics of inside my flue pipe so you guys can see first had what I'm talking about. I know you all think that I should have creasote tar stuck to the inside and running out my seams of the pipe. But I don't. And I know from previous experience with my old long wood, that if I didn't keep my stack temps above 400deg it would get nasty. And it did! Last yr I had creasote everywhere since it was such a mild winter. My stack temps where low around 300deg. And that was measured with the magnetic thermometer. I could smack my flue piping and hear crap fall down the chimney. Every time I took off the clean out cap, creasote would fall out. 

I've taken my cap off once this yr. Just last week and looked up the chimney. Nothing... Only stains from the last 4 yrs of creasote. There was just a little grey dust on the edges. Nothing fell out on the cap!!!


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## brenndatomu (Jan 16, 2013)

mizzou said:


> I wondered, last post I saw wasn't too long ago, but was about people trying to stop anyone from burning wood. I suspect he still lurks.:msp_sneaky:



If you look, that thread was an old one that someone dug up. I just looked it up, CK hasn't signed into AS since 9/3/2012.


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## iowa (Jan 16, 2013)

BTW!! I am not paid by Kuuma to say this or that. In fact after talking to Keith on the phone last yr. and him telling me about flue temps and burning wood, I was totally against getting a kuuma furnace!!! I thought it was snake oil, BS... NO LIE...

I waited though and followed the threads on here and thehearth. I pm'd a few guys and asked questions about their kuuma vaporfires and heard first hand that it isn't BS. So I decided to go with one and see for myself. I like taking risks. Some pay off... Some don't. I'm glad I took the plunge. Was it expensive? $4800 shipped here with a water coil. You tell me? I pay $2000 on average with proPAIN a yr before burning wood. With my old longwood I was going through 5-8 cord a yr to keep my house warm. I'm hoping I will only go through 4cord or less a yr with the kuuma. Right now I haven't gone through one cord this yr.


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## lampmfg (Jan 16, 2013)

Como said:


> You can't.
> 
> _At temperatures below 250 degrees F creosote will condense on the surfaces of stove pipes or chimney flues.When the temperature gets below 150 degrees F the creosote deposit will be thick, sticky and similar to tar. This tends to trap carbon from smoke which dries and bakes inside pipes and flues. This flaky substance is very flammable. _
> 
> ...



The combustion efficiency is high enough to burn up to 99% of the smoke. So when you get rid of the smoke you get rid of the creosote. In simple terms "No Smoke=No Creosote". We have enough flue temperature so the water vapor doesn't condense until it hit's the atmosphere. With complete combustion (important) the two by products are water vapor and CO2. It stays as a vapor because the temperature is more than 212 degrees all the way until the top of the chimney top. :confused2:


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## laynes69 (Jan 16, 2013)

We had problems with condensation the first year of our furnace. Our flue temps are low, but the chimney liner was too big. We lined the chimney and our condensation problems disappeared. Our flue temps stay around 200-225 external on average. We don't have a single problem with condensation, and there's no creosote buildup. The insulated liner keeps the gasses hotter. Our old furnace flue temps would easily go over 400 external on the fluepipe.


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## stihly dan (Jan 16, 2013)

Happened to be in the middle of a burn now. unit is on low as always, 186 deg f. 18 inches away from furnace, top of single wall pipe, with infrared and magnetic.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 16, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> Happened to be in the middle of a burn now. unit is on low as always, 186 deg f. 18 inches away from furnace, top of single wall pipe, with infrared and magnetic.



internal temps are usually hotter than surface temps. I use a probe, it only goes up to 550 but thats hotter than i want it anyways. I also have a magnetic thermometer but i dont pay much attention to it anymore. I actually put it above the door on the front of the firebox. (should just throw it in the firebox)


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## iowa (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok guys. Its show and tell time! I put 5 pieces of wood in right before supper. I ate and went back downstairs 30-45 min later. Theres a good hot fire going and perfect for taking temps and pics of flue pipe. 

I took my temp probe I use for my smoker. Inserted it 3" into stove pipe approx 16-18" away from furnace. It moved around between 350-415. So if you wanna take a medium of 385ish??? My infered thermometer was around 200 on the stove pipe. Here's some pics. The pic with the temp probe displays 2 temps. The top temp is what the probe is sensing. The bottom number is your preset number. It beeps once it hits that desired temp.


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## ziggo_2 (Jan 16, 2013)

I measure my temps about a foot AFTER the BDR, Looks like your temps are right around where they should be. My flue temps are fine until they hit the chimney. I think it comes down to having an outside chimney, although it seems nobody else has this problem on their outside chimney. Its not "wet wood" either so I dont know.


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## iowa (Jan 16, 2013)

Mine is an outside chimney. Runs next to the side of my house. Through the soffit and goes 4' above roof.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 16, 2013)

Does the Kuuma tie into the house thermostat? Does it overshoot the thermostat set temp sometimes?
I wouldn't think you could maintain a "smokeless" burn if the fire is dialed back too far, therefore, if the heat load is light, I'm thinking ya must hafta use the windowstats sometimes, ehh?


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## iowa (Jan 16, 2013)

Yes. Its hooked to house thermostat. And yes. On warm days it will overshoot the setting. We've had the winders and doors open a few times this winter. Fresh air is great!


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## lampmfg (Jan 17, 2013)

Order a Kuuma Vapor-Fire on 1/17/13 or 1/18/13 and receive our H20 coil for heating domestic water (a $200 value) *FREE*. Must e-mail us at [email protected] and mention arboristsite.com. Only new purchases on 1/17-18/13 will be considered.


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## Como (Jan 17, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> Order a Kuuma Vapor-Fire on 1/17/13 or 1/18/13 and receive our H20 coil for heating domestic water (a $200 value) *FREE*. Must e-mail us at [email protected] and mention arboristsite.com. Only new purchases on 1/17-18/13 will be considered.



That sounds an excellent idea, discount but I was focussing more on pre heating water to mitigate usage.

Makes you wonder if you could also use it for radiant heat in a location where it would be easier to pump water than blow air.


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## lampmfg (Jan 17, 2013)

Not sure if I understand you but our H2O coil basically preheats and is like a helper for domestic H2O. I think it works pretty well but our owners can give you their own feedback.


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## centennial60 (Jan 17, 2013)

Does it fit into the firebox? Or does it mount between the firebox and the jacket?


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## iowa (Jan 17, 2013)

centennial60 said:


> Does it fit into the firebox? Or does it mount between the firebox and the jacket?



It is mounted to the back side of the fire box. Between firebox and outer cabinet.


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## stihly dan (Jan 17, 2013)

Now I here there is a tax credit of $300 for 2013 retro active for 012 also.


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## lampmfg (Jan 17, 2013)

stihly dan said:


> Now I here there is a tax credit of $300 for 2013 retro active for 012 also.



I haven't heard that but it would be nice.


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## stihly dan (Jan 17, 2013)

Garret, This might hurt, but look on the Yukon site. They have all the info there, if its true.


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## lampmfg (Jan 17, 2013)

Looks like your correct and it will get you guys a nice little bonus cash on your taxes because you are eligible.


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## Fyrebug (Jan 17, 2013)

All the info to be found here...

25C Tax Credit &mdash; Hearth, Patio and Barbecue Association


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## stihly dan (Jan 17, 2013)

Yah we are! Maybe we will get double, for being twice as clean.


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## iowa (Jan 17, 2013)

So I'm eligible?


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## lampmfg (Jan 17, 2013)

[SUB][/SUB]


iowa said:


> So I'm eligible?



Yep...


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## gs7 (Aug 24, 2013)

*Kuuma*



iowa said:


> I talked to Keith for over an hour on the phone last yr when I was looking around for a wood furnace. He was very nice on the phone. However, he put down caddy, and kuuma constantly. Stating that there's no way to get emission #s like that etc without creosote build up. Constantly cursing etc. Yes some things he said were true , but bashing someone else's product without ever having first hand using it is bad.
> 
> I never bought a furnace last yr and decided to think things over. I finally decided on the kuuma. And I'm proudto say I'm glad that I did. I never see smoke coming out of my chimney and my house is toasty warm. The only time I see smoke is when I load it. That lasts a max of 15 min.



How many square feet are you heating with your KUUMA and how has it performed to date, thanks


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## lampmfg (Aug 24, 2013)

gs7 said:


> How many square feet are you heating with your KUUMA and how has it performed to date, thanks



They just wrote a review in this thread. Thanks

http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/242982.htm


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## iowa (Aug 24, 2013)

gs7 said:


> How many square feet are you heating with your KUUMA and how has it performed to date, thanks



I am heating a 3000sq ft home that's 9yrs old. Walk out basement. 

Performance was great. Can't ask for anything more. Load it twice a day. Tons of heat. Very efficient. Clean clean burn! My flue temps are around 240-260. No creosote. 

I will be cleaning the heat exchange chamber, stove pipe, and inspecting the chimney very soon. I will post my results when I do so as others have asked to "see proof".


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## jimsbrain (Aug 25, 2013)

*Kuuma vapor fire*

Sorry I've been out hoarding wood. 

I've got a super jack furnace for my 2300 sq ft home with oil heat for back up and quadrafire 4100i for more backup when its REAL cold. 

I've been heating with wood since 96 and I installed wood/coal/pellet devices and serviced then and installed chimney liners etc. from 2007-2009. 

I have a couple of problems with the design of the Jack furnaces.


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## jimsbrain (Aug 25, 2013)

*Kuuma vapor fire*

1. I expected a lot from the furnace because of all the claims from the company. It is a bruiser and indestructible, but.....It idles a lot and this is a problem if the heat exchanger is engaged because 
the draft is poor (no matter what type of chimney your using and no matter how dry your wood is Keith). The only solution to this is to not lock down the ash door handle. (admit it ...you've done it).


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## jimsbrain (Aug 25, 2013)

*Kuuma vapor fire*

2. The "advertised" secondary burn is non existent. If you have perfect conditions and don't use a thermostat, you can obtain something "like" a secondary burn with the combustion fan on and the stove
going at full tilt. The stove will smoke less but....you will have to strip down to your skivvies in the house. The solution? There is none. You guys have seen the air tubes in the newer non catalytic stoves ....until a stove like this feeds air to the ceiling of the firebox in this manner (it has to be at the top where the action is not from a combustion fan down below) there can't be a true gaseous / 2ndary burn. 

This stove will last forever. And I'm gonna keep it for awhile now that it's installed, and by the way I put in a 20' insulated stainless liner. professionally installed by....ME. All the pipe and barometric damper installed
by a pro.....ME! 

Questions are welcomed....I'll try to be more timely with answers.


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## iowa (Aug 26, 2013)

Jimsbrain: 

I'm confused... Do you own a Kuuma or not?

Some of what you said isn't true and not sure what you're getting at. 

I've never left my ash door open to "help" the draft. There was 2 times that I had a problem starting my Kuuma last yr. When the barometric pressure was very low during heavy rain fall. It wanted to back flow. Once I got a good fire going, things went as it was suppose to. In my set-up, I have two 45deg elbows before hitting a 90deg through the wall thimble. 

The furnace does idle and isn't sealed up which creates creosote. When weather is really mild (upper 40s-low50s) my house is plenty warm. 78ish. I have my thermostat set at 76. Would I rather have a warm house or a creosote filled chimney?? Hmmm. I'd like to keep my house. And opening a couple windows up in my house is very simple. When you do open up a couple windows, it does 2 things. 1. It cools my house. 2. I get fresh oxygen rich air in my house which is healthy!. 

I'm not sure why you're telling us this furnace doesn't have a secondary gasification burn?? Have you not looked directly above the door after opening it? Guess that's there for decoration? 

Either way. My Kuuma heats my house very well. It is a clean burn. And I use way less wood..


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## lampmfg (Aug 26, 2013)

iowa said:


> Jimsbrain:
> 
> I'm confused... Do you own a Kuuma or not?
> 
> ...



I was wondering the same thing but he is talking about his Yukon, because he doesn't own a Kuuma. Probably should have started his own Yukon review thread.


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## iowa (Aug 26, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> I was wondering the same thing but he is talking about his Yukon, because he doesn't own a Kuuma. Probably should have started his own Yukon review thread.



Ya. He had me lost. Because 90% of what he stated isn't true about the kuuma. Just that you may have to open up a window during mild weather. If that's the worst thing you have to do..... wow..:msp_sneaky:


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 26, 2013)

lampmfg said:


> I was wondering the same thing but he is talking about his Yukon, because he doesn't own a Kuuma. Probably should have started his own Yukon review thread.



I was considering moving his posts, till I realized that he started THIS thread...

It isn't the most clearly written information though, I'll give you that.


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## jimsbrain (Aug 26, 2013)

*Kuuma vapor fire*

Ok guys, I realize I was out of town for awhile but.....I started the whole thread by asking If anyone knew anything about the vapor fire. I stated that I had purchased a Super Jack and then while I was installing it, I saw the Vapor fire you tube video and had liked what I saw. Then I went out of town.... recently I noticed a post that asked me what I don't like about the SJ so this was the answer to that question. Clear as mud? :jester:

JR


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## iowa (Aug 26, 2013)

jimsbrain said:


> Ok guys, I realize I was out of town for awhile but.....I started the whole thread by asking If anyone knew anything about the vapor fire. I stated that I had purchased a Super Jack and then while I was installing it, I saw the Vapor fire you tube video and had liked what I saw. Then I went out of town.... recently I noticed a post that asked me what I don't like about the SJ so this was the answer to that question. Clear as mud? :jester:
> 
> JR



Next time someone asks you a question click the little dealy down on the bottom right side that says *"reply with quote"*!! Then we know exactly what you're referring too!! Clear as water! Or muddy water!:msp_biggrin:


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## jimsbrain (Aug 26, 2013)

*Yukon Super Jack*

Ok, does that help.


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## jimsbrain (Aug 26, 2013)

*Yukon Super Jack*



jimsbrain said:


> Ok guys, I realize I was out of town for awhile but.....I started the whole thread by asking If anyone knew anything about the vapor fire. I stated that I had purchased a Super Jack and then while I was installing it, I saw the Vapor fire you tube video and had liked what I saw. Then I went out of town.... recently I noticed a post that asked me what I don't like about the SJ so this was the answer to that question. Clear as mud? :jester:
> 
> JR



Ok, I appreciate the advice and I'll use the "reply with quote" to clarify.....and I was a bit incoherent last night at 11:30 because my original reply was "timed out" and didn't make it to post. So I quick typed another one. 

To close this thread:

I really, really wish I'd seen the Kuuma prior to buying my SJ furnace. But on the bright side....I spent 1,600. And it works "ok"....Just night quite as well as I had hoped. I will continue to tweak things but I was hoping that tweaking would be minimal. It sounds like the Kuuma needs minimal tweaking!!!!!! I am Envious!!!! Thanks for putting up with my lack of site experience. Jim.


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 26, 2013)

That's allright Jim, not everyone is an internet forum junkie like some of us are.

Thanks for your opinion.


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## iowa (Aug 26, 2013)

jimsbrain said:


> Ok, I appreciate the advice and I'll use the "reply with quote" to clarify.....and I was a bit incoherent last night at 11:30 because my original reply was "timed out" and didn't make it to post. So I quick typed another one.
> 
> To close this thread:
> 
> I really, really wish I'd seen the Kuuma prior to buying my SJ furnace. But on the bright side....I spent 1,600. And it works "ok"....Just night quite as well as I had hoped. I will continue to tweak things but I was hoping that tweaking would be minimal. It sounds like the Kuuma needs minimal tweaking!!!!!! I am Envious!!!! Thanks for putting up with my lack of site experience. Jim.



It's great! Well not that you're not quite happy with the SJ furnace, but that we got everything ironed out. 

But yes. There is not tweaking to the Kuuma. Just watch the outside temps and turn the knob on the kuuma to low-med-high for the required heat. I'm sure I'll never need the high setting, but them therrrrr folks up north will!


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## lampmfg (Aug 26, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> I was considering moving his posts, till I realized that he started THIS thread...
> 
> It isn't the most clearly written information though, I'll give you that.



I didn't realize he started this thread either:msp_smile:


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## brenndatomu (Aug 26, 2013)

jimsbrain said:


> 1. I expected a lot from the furnace because of all the claims from the company. It is a bruiser and indestructible, but.....It idles a lot and this is a problem if the heat exchanger is engaged because
> the draft is poor (no matter what type of chimney your using and no matter how dry your wood is Keith). The only solution to this is to not lock down the ash door handle. (admit it ...you've done it).





jimsbrain said:


> 2. The "advertised" secondary burn is non existent. If you have perfect conditions and don't use a thermostat, you can obtain something "like" a secondary burn with the combustion fan on and the stove
> going at full tilt. The stove will smoke less but....you will have to strip down to your skivvies in the house. The solution? There is none. You guys have seen the air tubes in the newer non catalytic stoves ....until a stove like this feeds air to the ceiling of the firebox in this manner (it has to be at the top where the action is not from a combustion fan down below) there can't be a true gaseous / 2ndary burn.
> 
> This stove will last forever. And I'm gonna keep it for awhile now that it's installed, and by the way I put in a 20' insulated stainless liner. professionally installed by....ME. All the pipe and barometric damper installed
> ...



Yup, that was pretty much my experience with the Big Jack too. 
Sounds like maybe you have yourself a good candidate for CL there! Sell it while it's still fairly new, worth more, I think they sell pretty well. 
That what I did, sent the BJ down the road, installed a Yukon Husky, it works a lot better than the Jack line, but I'm sure the Kuumas burn cleaner. I was a little over $2k for my whole install on the Husky (used) including $1250 for a new SS liner kit. I would just have a hard time forking out the $4k or so for the Kuumas, although I'm sure they are a good deal for what you are getting, it's just too much like wine for my beer budget (and we are talking the beer in the white can with the black block lettering that says, "Beer"!)  
Better get your new Kuuma ordered now, I hear their backlog stacks up pretty quick when heating season starts!


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## stihly dan (Aug 26, 2013)

I had initially thought they where a lot of coin as well, comparing it to fossil fuel units. Could get to of them for 1 of these. But then look at good top of the line wood stoves, there almost as much. I was looking at a new hearthstone, I believe it was the Mansfield. They wanted like $ 4,000/4,200.. Way more bang for the buck with the Kuuma. The thing I see with heating appliances, They last a long time so you better be happy with them or that's a long regret period. If you plan on burning wood temporarily, or just getting the feeling if you would like the work that goes along with them. Then cheap is the way to go. If I burn till I'm 60, that's 20 years. So if I only save 2 cords a yr with the Kuuma, that's 40 cord that I don't have to process. Plus 20 years of comfort, and effortless operation. The extra $2-3,000 would then be priceless.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 26, 2013)

Can't argue with your logic Dan...


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