# Workers Comp / General Liability Tree Service / Logging



## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Apr 11, 2013)

So I went to renew my insurance today. Ive come acrossed a good walnut buyer and make more money selling large walnut trees then I would get paid to knock them down... So my appeal is if I can get the tree for the log Ill cut it down for the value of the log... We run into walnut from 30" up to 42" 12ft+.... Even around a house max time it takes me is 6 hours.... Here's my dilima... My insurance company says this is logging and my insurance will double even tho nothing has changed execpt Im willing to take a tree as payment??
Will Logging insurance cover the same? Is Logging Worker Comp more then the 19.9 percent they already charge me?

I want to be legit and I think they are to comfortable with me. Ive been there 10 yrs.....


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## cjtreeclimber (Apr 11, 2013)

personally . . I would of not told my insurance jack as long as I have that silly paper to show the customer or whatever to get to do the job. But IM just a little bitty guy :msp_razz:


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Apr 11, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> personally . . I would of not told my insurance jack as long as I have that silly paper to show the customer or whatever to get to do the job. But IM just a little bitty guy :msp_razz:



I'm a little guy starting from scratch. I have a dump trailer, stump grinder, 395/390, climbing gear, tree saws... I rent a chipper. My frist 6 months trying to run my company 100percent legit has increased business. Im worried about audits by my insurance company and IRS... Ive tried working for myself for 4 years. Frist three were hard but now I have a Buyer for Black Walnut that pays better then most jobs do... I went from $50k in a year to.... well Ive made $25k in 5 months.... I have another $25k worth of work lined up that can be completed in 54 man hours or less. Probably less man hours and probably like $32k...

Im trying to make half million this year and it seems like my company is well on its way. But Im not sure where to get the right info on insurance... They all just want to sell me insurance but it seems like thier insurance wouldnt cover anything... I want the right coverage. Its a big part of my marketing and I take on massive trees... Last walnut I did was 24ft 37" on the small end. Just massive. Took 3hrs sold for $2500... Job took 20 hrs and made $6064... Heres the problem... I made more yes... but because I didn't charge them to take it down it's " logging " even tho it was between two houses and because its " logging " my insurance doubles... So the only thing that has changed is how I get paid.... Basically they said get paid to knock it down and then sell the log and if you feel guilty for making all that money I could give them cash back but I will then get taxed for the cash I pay out and won't be able right it off.... I would like to buy a bucket and a chipper in the future but my insurance company always seems to be jacking my prices up... Is it my broker or is that just how it is???


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Apr 12, 2013)

No legit companies on here? Just get a paper and hope for the best??


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## chief116 (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm no expert, as I only have a $1 mil policy that covers me on sidejobs. If you're trying to be "legit", go insurance shopping and get a loggers policy. Just do it and don't complain. Search thru the old insurance posts and call some of the recommended companies. Or, keep the insurance you have and take the chance that you aren't covered if something goes wrong during your logging operation.

Plenty of legit companies and guys on here, you've already answered your own question by stating you want to do it right.


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Apr 12, 2013)

chief116 said:


> I'm no expert, as I only have a $1 mil policy that covers me on sidejobs. If you're trying to be "legit", go insurance shopping and get a loggers policy. Just do it and don't complain. Search thru the old insurance posts and call some of the recommended companies. Or, keep the insurance you have and take the chance that you aren't covered if something goes wrong during your logging operation.
> 
> Plenty of legit companies and guys on here, you've already answered your own question by stating you want to do it right.



Im not trying to start a logging operation... I run a Tree service... I cut down and sell Black Walnut that a logger would never attempt... So buy loggers insurance for tree Service and pay more and still not have the right coverage??


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## chief116 (Apr 12, 2013)

FLtreeGuyVHTC said:


> Im not trying to start a logging operation... I run a Tree service... I cut down and sell Black Walnut that a logger would never attempt... So buy loggers insurance for tree Service and pay more and still not have the right coverage??



Ok, so the issue is that you can't explain yourself to your insurance agent. Find a new agent. Keep your current policy. Charge customers to remove the tree, with the understanding that if you get high grade logs, it will be a reduced rate. Then you're a tree service.


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Apr 12, 2013)

chief116 said:


> Ok, so the issue is that you can't explain yourself to your insurance agent. Find a new agent. Keep your current policy. Charge customers to remove the tree, with the understanding that if you get high grade logs, it will be a reduced rate. Then you're a tree service.



The appeal is to not charge them and do the job for the log... This sounds crazy but at $3 to $6 a board foot... Thats pretty good money... After some brain storming this is what we come up with... 

So I personally buy the tree, pay my company to knock it down, then I sell the log.... Now my worry is because Im a sole propietor if I get audited will they just try the samething; " Your logging " even though Im not.... I dont want to set up $40k of work and then get dropped by my insurance company because of wording....


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## chief116 (Apr 12, 2013)

If this is a one time or once in a while deal, I personally wouldn't be worried about the insurance. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If you're going to climb and go through your regular tree removal process and drop a butt log, I think you have more than enough justification to not need a special policy.

If you're going to be driving around looking for black walnuts with the sole intention of knocking them over whole to sell as many board feet as possible, you should consider a second policy to cover you. My insurance agent got me cheaper liability coverage based on how much I planned to make on my sidejobs. I would imagine you'd be able to find something similar. 

Do what you have to cover your ass. If this one log is worth so much, it should pay off your premium and still leave some coin in your pocket.


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Apr 12, 2013)

chief116 said:


> If this is a one time or once in a while deal, I personally wouldn't be worried about the insurance. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If you're going to climb and go through your regular tree removal process and drop a butt log, I think you have more than enough justification to not need a special policy.
> 
> If you're going to be driving around looking for black walnuts with the sole intention of knocking them over whole to sell as many board feet as possible, you should consider a second policy to cover you. My insurance agent got me cheaper liability coverage based on how much I planned to make on my sidejobs. I would imagine you'd be able to find something similar.
> 
> Do what you have to cover your ass. If this one log is worth so much, it should pay off your premium and still leave some coin in your pocket.



Yes sir, and my regular trims/take downs keep the flow steady. So if I am driving around looking for walnuts for myself as a sidejob instead as a company in should be cheaper? No need for another DBA?

I two logs easliy pays for it and with like 6 more to do.... Im looking at a pretty penny... I may space them out between this year and next year because of tax purposes.

Here is the other idea I had.... Buy the tree, Pay my company to take it down, then resell it... Then I wouldn't have to worry about having another general liability policy. Coverage I have now is only $500k. If I get a $1m coverage I can do jobs for the town and cities... I think I would want to be incorprated or an LLC at that point right?


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## cjtreeclimber (Apr 20, 2013)

I got my liability for small company starter insurance for 350 bucks down to cover a half mill. then went back to get insurance again and it went up to 750 down and just under a hundred a month for six months. I'm keeping money saved up for the next person that requests proof of insurance on a bigger tree job; so the, Ill just make a phone call and start it up for that customer.


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## zogger (Jul 7, 2013)

You already have treework insurance, they don't care what you do with the waste byproduct, stuff you have to cleanup anyway. If you are going in solely to do logging, that changes things. 

Just stick to only doing tree removals then. You aren't a logger, you are an arborist. Leftover saw logs/chips/firewood, is all waste product needing of disposal somehow.

I would just tell customers (if it was me, not giving legal advice here...) they have to technically pay something for the job to be legit, has to be a contract and receipt for your insurance to be valid. They want a professional take down, that is what it is. What that is is up to you. Take down one price, hauling off the debris and disposal is another maybe. If the debris, which could be firewood, sawlogs, chips, whatever, is valuable later on, you don't have to charge them as much for the takedown.


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