# Descenders vs prusik



## Tree Raptor (Mar 11, 2009)

I just purchased an almost new bucket truck and am looking to increase my knowledge all around. Pictures to come soon. We currently use a 3rd party climber for tall/big stuff and 40' and 32' ladders for all else. Don't laugh, you would be surprised as to how big a tree you can take down with a 40'er and pole saw. I don't climb per say but am very comfortable up top a 40' ladder in a saddle. I actually like being up top. Anyhow, I would like suggestions on best application for lowering myself from the bucket in case of emergency or 40' ladder while saddled in if it were to kick out. 

I know how to make a prusik but never tried to use it. I know that their are a ton of different descenders out there but don't know one from the other. You have the typical fiure 8 and the rescue figure 8 and such. Not sure if I should use a friction type knot or descender piece. I have been taking down trees now for almost 20 years and other than a bandade now and then.... and I would like to keep it that way so looking for something very safe.

thanks in advance 

If I need to lower myself down can I get some suggestions or possible options. I alway have a rope with me.


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## ntsarborist (Mar 11, 2009)

put an aerial rescue kit together. heres what you need. 

a throwline (12oz weight would be ideal)
saddle(nothing fancy, just somthing that gets your a** out of the air)
about 100' of rope 
a set of spikes(dont need but good to have)

just use the drt method and tie a blakes hitch in your rope.

also make sure that you have someone on the ground that can throw a throwline good.


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## woodchux (Mar 11, 2009)

Not bashing you, but if you truely want to work safely... please stop cutting from ladders.


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## treemandan (Mar 11, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> I just purchased an almost new bucket truck and am looking to increase my knowledge all around. Pictures to come soon. We currently use a 3rd party climber for tall/big stuff and 40' and 32' ladders for all else. Don't laugh, you would be surprised as to how big a tree you can take down with a 40'er and pole saw. I don't climb per say but am very comfortable up top a 40' ladder in a saddle. I actually like being up top. Anyhow, I would like suggestions on best application for lowering myself from the bucket in case of emergency or 40' ladder while saddled in if it were to kick out.
> 
> I know how to make a prusik but never tried to use it. I know that their are a ton of different descenders out there but don't know one from the other. You have the typical fiure 8 and the rescue figure 8 and such. Not sure if I should use a friction type knot or descender piece. I have been taking down trees now for almost 20 years and other than a bandade now and then.... and I would like to keep it that way so looking for something very safe.
> 
> ...



I find it almost impossible to believe you but the scary thing is is that I do. Well, its never to late to learn I guess, as long as your still alive that is. We wish you all the best in your endevours and WE WILL SET YOU STRAIGHT. Welcome.


First thing is get a climbing line, take it with you everywhere you go.


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## treemandan (Mar 11, 2009)

Ok, I have to.

The man said he has been taking down trees for 20 years. Well, I guess with just a measly ladder and a pole saw I would imagine its been the same one.

No, don't fret it my friend. I am very much intrested in seeing some of your pics, I think we all are. Beleive me we will stand behind you, very far behind you.

I hope you like to have fun.


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## oldirty (Mar 11, 2009)

woodchux said:


> Not bashing you, but if you truely want to work safely... please stop cutting from ladders.



ladders dont belong in treework.

dont be lazy.


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## UrbanLogger (Mar 11, 2009)

:agree2:



oldirty said:


> ladders dont belong in treework.
> 
> dont be lazy.



+1


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## treemandan (Mar 11, 2009)

oldirty said:


> ladders dont belong in treework.
> 
> dont be lazy.



I think there should be a ladder on top every truck. Defiantely. If you have a top kick- sure a big ladder. You got a wire to drop, shrub to prune, put it on the pinic table to get the hanger down or a man who is kinda in a position where he don't really care how you get up to him just do it real fast. 

After I just ran the top of my 20 into the underside of my left wrist ( sorry buddy , no pics) I think I would have been able to just unhook and climb down. Maybe it was 35 feet.

I went down on the line though, the other end of my rope was double crotched so I knew I didn't have quite the length to hit the ground. It was gushing pretty good by the time I clipped the saw back on my belt. I took look at the guys who would have only killed us both if they tried to come up and jumped. 

The line ran out 12 feet to the ground, Rodney is tossing me his ratty Buck which the rope just laughs at. He is 6 plus so he sticks his hands up to give me lift so I can unclip but it ain't enough but that's just fine because Callus is now tossing me the diver's knife ( he knows where its velcro-ed, everybody does) and that was just a one and done.

This happened years back so the frightful twinges are pretty much gone but the lessons do remain. 


Yo, this thread is about ladders man. Who is this troll? Tree raptor? HUH?


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 12, 2009)

You say you have a saddle. So, what you could utilize is a rescue 8. If you are on top of the ladder, with a rope, then tie the rope with a bowline on a bight at the top of the ladder. Then if you need to, you can use the 8 to rappel down. Same as from the bucket.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 12, 2009)

oldirty said:


> ladders dont belong in treework.
> 
> dont be lazy.



Ever tried fruit pruning 20' fruit trees by just climbing? Tough to get to the tips. And a pole pruner is WAY too slow.


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## woodchux (Mar 12, 2009)

I think that ladders are great for access....but horrible and deadly as a cutting platform.


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## oldirty (Mar 12, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> Ever tried fruit pruning 20' fruit trees by just climbing? Tough to get to the tips. And a pole pruner is WAY too slow.



i wasnt talking about orchard ladders. we have 2 on our trucks. i am talking about regular ladders that a painter or a roofer would use.

those dont really have a place, to me, in tree work.

maybe just maybe use one to get access into the tree but not to work from.


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## groundsmgr (Mar 12, 2009)

oldirty said:


> ladders dont belong in treework.
> 
> dont be lazy.



APLUS:greenchainsaw:
Only time i used a ladder was in my high schools apple orchard.
Or my neighbors privet hedge


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 12, 2009)

*Descenders vs prusik (follow up)*



ntsarborist said:


> put an aerial rescue kit together. heres what you need.
> 
> a throwline (12oz weight would be ideal)
> saddle(nothing fancy, just somthing that gets your a** out of the air)
> ...



Well, I have to admit I was kind of shocked by some of the replies but do appreciate your candor and puttng myself in your shoes can understand why some feel that way regarding using ladders. In the 20 years that I have been taking down trees we have never kicked out a ladder or damaged one. 
I know that some are against using ladders but I work 8 months a year (apr 1 thu end of Nov) (minus 3 weeks for showing draft horses) and I make between 90 and 100 myself in that 7months 3week time period and take off 4 months in winter and do nothing and from working with just a ladder (and 3rd party climber when needed) I am pretty happy with that. But now I would like to move forward and learn more now that I have a bucket truck. (ie. rigging, equipment, more safety and maybe even some easy climbing to start off with) 


ntsarborist... I already have a nice saddle and use is daily while working in ladder. have 100 & 150' climbing ropes and have steel spikes that I never really tried. 

I have a throw line but why would I need it in a rescue kit. I would just assume that if I always had 100'er with me in the bucket or ladder and a descender that is all I would need... unless of course bucket died right over wires or such then you would have to lower away from that and hence might need the throw bag/line to manuver you away from whatever. I have never seen how a rescue 8 descender is used, does anyone have a pic showing how you thread rope and how it's used. 

what did you mean by the following statement: "just use the drt method and tie a blakes hitch in your rope" what is a drt method ?

also while I'm on the topic of new bucket truck... is there any reason why I can't / should not use my Saddles flip line to tie off to the bucket safety ring or is there a reason that I should be using the safety harness rig and it's strap that came with the unit. I'm not a big fan of those flat (fit thru) type buckles that their bucket harness has. 

I Know someone on this site recommended a bongie (packaged) in plastc for bucket safety and it "opens" rips plastic if I were to fall out of bucket. Just need to know if I should be using anything specific to "tie into" the buckets safety ring. 


thanks everyone....


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## af7850 (Mar 12, 2009)

first things first, a work positioning saddle is not designed to be used as a fall safety harness, and therefore should not be employed as one. Use a proper harness while operating your bucket truck, and invest in a good "rip stop"- type safety lanyard.

Beyond that, you ought not expect to be able to just jump into a saddle, tie in and go. I strongly suggest learning to climb proficiently on a DdRT / Blakes system before even thinking about using it to extricate from your bucket. There are just too many things that can go wrong when you are less than "second nature" comfortable with your gear.

You would be wise to consider very seriously the recommendations of the pros on this site. If self preservation is an instinct which you hold dear, find someone to literally teach you the ropes; otherwise you are certainly destined to become yet another casualty of our industry.


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## oldirty (Mar 12, 2009)

sounds like a hack from a ladder is going to be a hack from the bucket. evolution baby, alright.


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## Nailsbeats (Mar 12, 2009)

woodchux said:


> I think that ladders are great for access....but horrible and deadly as a cutting platform.



Yep, yep.:agree2:


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## ntsarborist (Mar 12, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> what did you mean by the following statement: "just use the drt method and tie a blakes hitch in your rope" what is a drt method ?
> 
> it is double rope technic. use a single rope, throw it over a strong crotch atleast 3 inches thick of limbs. bring the one end to you and tie yourself in on your saddle(leave about 2 foot from your buntline knot to the end of the rope), tie a blakes hitch onto your running end and finish off the rest of the slack in the rope with a figure eight knot. do you know what i mean?


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 13, 2009)

*Ddrt / Blakes*



af7850 said:


> first things first, a work positioning saddle is not designed to be used as a fall safety harness, and therefore should not be employed as one. Use a proper harness while operating your bucket truck, and invest in a good "rip stop"- type safety lanyard.
> 
> Beyond that, you ought not expect to be able to just jump into a saddle, tie in and go. I strongly suggest learning to climb proficiently on a DdRT / Blakes system before even thinking about using it to extricate from your bucket. There are just too many things that can go wrong when you are less than "second nature" comfortable with your gear.
> 
> You would be wise to consider very seriously the recommendations of the pros on this site. If self preservation is an instinct which you hold dear, find someone to literally teach you the ropes; otherwise you are certainly destined to become yet another casualty of our industry.



Thanks for the response AF7850. You are the 2nd post that is suggesting using the Ddrt system to which i replied "I have no idea that that is or means". Can you elaborate. 

Surprised that my saddle can't "double up" as a bucket harness and lanyard, I I'm curious why. 

I did look up the Blakes knot on Sherrills and did see that it did list concerns and such with slippage and the use of a stopper knot. I did have a prusik loop made by a tree rope company using the suggested smaller rope than my 1/2" climbing rope) not sure what size the pursik is but remembered the spec was very strong. I would think that a prusik loop would have been the safest choice and kinda puzzled why no one suggested using it to rappelling down. I'm assuming the fig 8 dec is used ONLY for decending and needs one hand to control decent rate whereas a prusik only decents when you want it to and if you let go it will stop you. This is why I would guess the prusik would be the safest for a bigginer like me. 

I guess until try and use a rescue figure 8 I will be able to see for myself the differences and advantages/disadvantages. I wil purchase a descender rescue fig 8 and try (obviously from just a few feet off the ground and work my way up to see how they work. Is there only one way to "thread" a fig 8 descender and if so can someone give me a site / picture or describe it. 

I think I have someone who lives within a reasonable distance from me who is a "pro" and can show me some hands on but still would like to hear from you guys prior. 

sending pics of my bucket truck early next week. 
Thanks again


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## woodchux (Mar 13, 2009)

Dude...You've got a lot of reading you need to do. Go ahead and get the book 'tree climbers companion' .it will teach you the most basic skill set that you should know to stay alive.


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## af7850 (Mar 14, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> Thanks for the response AF7850. You are the 2nd post that is suggesting using the Ddrt system to which i replied "I have no idea that that is or means". Can you elaborate.



DdRT stands for Dynamic Doubled Rope Technique. Basically this refers to a system where the rope is passed through the tree (doubled), and where the rope moves every time you move (dynamic). 

Static Rope Technique (SRT), on the other hand, is where the rope is fixed to the tree and does not change position as you move.

If you plan on using a friction hitch to descend, you will want to use DdRT, because it places less stress on the hitch.



> Surprised that my saddle can't "double up" as a bucket harness and lanyard, I I'm curious why.



Aside from testing and certification (ANSI Standards and such), think of the way your saddle works. The connection points are over or around the hips, anchoring the middle of your body in the front. If you take a spill, you will be caught by the front of your waist, and your back will take the force of the fall arrest. Ever watch professional wrestling and see someone get the "back breaker"?

Fall arrest harnesses, on the other hand, have an anchor point placed on the back by the shoulder blades. If you spill, you will be suspended vertically, and the harness will absorb the force of the fall arrest, distributing it over your back, hips and legs. The chance of injury is reduced dramatically.



> I did look up the Blakes knot on Sherrills and did see that it did list concerns and such with slippage and the use of a stopper knot. I did have a prusik loop made by a tree rope company using the suggested smaller rope than my 1/2" climbing rope) not sure what size the pursik is but remembered the spec was very strong. I would think that a prusik loop would have been the safest choice and kinda puzzled why no one suggested using it to rappelling down. I'm assuming the fig 8 dec is used ONLY for descending and needs one hand to control decent rate whereas a prusik only descends when you want it to and if you let go it will stop you. This is why I would guess the prusik would be the safest for a beginner like me.



I would highly suggest using a friction hitch as your primary descent device. The Blakes is a very reliable hitch, and you will find that many arborists prefer it. A prusik does well, but has a higher likelihood of becoming looser during periods of low load (such as while working in the tree), therefore failing to properly grip the lifeline; this is one of the reasons some prefer the Blakes. Realize, though, that both of these hitches can be drawn very tight during periods of high load, making it damn difficult to descend.

I carry a Fig8 on my rig but would only use it as a last resort. IMHO it would be a mistake to use this as a primary means of extrication. You're right when you say that it makes sense to use a system which stops moving when you stop operating it.

Either way, it is very important to use your climbing system intensively at low altitude until you are intimately familiar with how it operates and feels.

Looking forward to seeing your truck.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 14, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> ... I would like suggestions on best application for lowering myself from the bucket in case of emergency or 40' ladder while saddled in if it were to kick out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...If I need to lower myself down can I get some suggestions or possible options. I alway have a rope with me.



Getting back to your original question, what size, what length, and what kind of rope do you presently own? Dynamic Rope Technique (DRT) is a good option, but it requires twice as much rope to reach the ground as Static Rope Technique (SRT) because you have to double the rope. 

Size of rope is very important to SRT because certain mechanical descenders work only on certain size ropes. Petzl STOP and GrisGris, for instance, use a smaller rope than the commonly used 1/2" arborist ropes like Arbormaster Blue Streak. Petzle makes an I'd descender for the half inch ropes.

I am not very familiar with bucket truck work, but I would recomend SRT with a Petzl I'd to you for bucket escape. You would need to carry only half as much rope with you as you would need for DdRT and the I'd is the safest of the descenders for someone who doesn't use them much. It has a safe guard against releasing it too fast and a safe guard against putting it on the rope backwards (sounds silly, but easy to do with a GrisGris or STOP).

But, its expensive.


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 14, 2009)

*Frictions hitchs vs mechanical devices (cont'd)*



af7850 said:


> DdRT stands for Dynamic Doubled Rope Technique.
> 
> If you plan on using a friction hitch to descend, you will want to use DdRT, because it places less stress on the hitch.
> 
> ...



AF7850, thanks for the info. Now that you set me straight on the bucket harness it is easy to see the difference. Problem resolved. I believe they said it came with a new bucket harness, now I will just have to find a real good rip stop lanyard or whatever is the best. I guess their is a host of different type lanyards out there, just have to see what is the best. 

Will work on the blake hitch until it is second nature. Even thought I do have high quality 100 and 150 ropes (I believe over 7k) they have been used for lowering of limbs and logs and such (nothing real heavy) but I would guess that a climbing rope is a climbing rope and should not be used for anything other than that for safety sake so with that said I will pick up a new 150'er of the highest quality climbing rope that I can buy fined and use JUST as my climbing/emergency use. 

I have read many types of ropes in various posts, what is considered the best regardless of price. 

Interesing how you noted that the prusik under load can be drawn tight, as this is what happened to me in practicing just a little off the ground, it basically locked and I could not get it to slip enough to rappell. It was attached to just a single 1/2" line hanging down, not using the Ddrt system. Was impressed by the way it gripped but frustrated as to why it didn't rappel.

I also agree with you 110% that practicing as super low levels until I am completely proficient with the the whole technique. 

bucket truck pics to be posted very soon.


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 14, 2009)

*mechanical descenders cont'd*



Fireaxman said:


> Size of rope is very important to SRT because certain mechanical descenders work only on certain size ropes. Petzl STOP and GrisGris, for instance, use a smaller rope than the commonly used 1/2" arborist ropes like Arbormaster Blue Streak. Petzle makes an I'd descender for the half inch ropes.
> 
> The I'd is the safest of the descenders for someone who doesn't use them much. It has a safe guard against releasing it too fast and a safe guard against putting it on the rope backwards (sounds silly, but easy to do with a GrisGris or STOP).
> 
> But, its expensive.



damn interesting.... thanks. gotta check out the "Petzle I'd" just to see what it's all about... (on the net I mean)..

thanks Fireaxman

If you always do what you always did, you’ll always get what you always got….


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## md_tree_dood (Mar 14, 2009)

ntsarborist said:


> Tree Raptor said:
> 
> 
> > what did you mean by the following statement: "just use the drt method and tie a blakes hitch in your rope" what is a drt method ?
> ...


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## blewgrass (Mar 14, 2009)

no offense, but it kinda seems like you need more help than a few pointers on a website. i feel like we all can tell you what and when to use certain methods and knots but without some solid hands on instruction from a person who truly knows what they're doing you're gonna be putting yourself in a dangerous position. 

wouldn't use a prussik to rappel on. use a blakes or a taughtline in ddrt. use a prussik to back up your figure eight if you want, but use a static rope tie in. there are multiple ways to use a figure eight, but the easiest is to pull a bight up through the big hole and loop it over the little hole. clip the little hole to you with a carabiner.

just some hints, but i would highly suggest some proper training. good luck!


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## af7850 (Mar 15, 2009)

md_tree_dood said:


> ntsarborist said:
> 
> 
> > Do not use Ddrt do descend from the bucket unless you are using it in conjunction with a friction saver or some other method that lets the rope run without bending. Get a rope thats twice as long as you can reach in your bucket, ie 60 ft bucket, get a 120 rope. Descend the rope doubled over with a figure 8. This keeps the rope completely static which is in my opinion a much better option then creating friction which you're going to with a ddrt system.
> ...


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## md_tree_dood (Mar 15, 2009)

af7850 said:


> md_tree_dood said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest tying in through a 4" pulley which is rated for climbing use. This will virtually eliminate friction, while also providing an acceptable bend diameter.
> ...


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## TreeTopKid (Mar 15, 2009)

I thought ladders were for window cleaners?


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## ntsarborist (Mar 15, 2009)

Tree Raptor said:


> Will work on the blake hitch until it is second nature.



it wont take long at all to learn how to tie a blakes hitch and know how to use it. for your stopper knot just tie a figure eight on the end. watch the you dont tie your blakes hitch wrong or you could be going for a ride.


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## Fireaxman (Mar 16, 2009)

woodchux said:


> I think that ladders are great for access....but horrible and deadly as a cutting platform.



+1, and I hardly learn anything the easy way. I had 3 real dangerous near misses before I convinced myself I had to learn to climb with ropes. To borrow an analogy from an old country western song, cut branches hunt the butt of a ladder like "... A Texas Twister hunts Trailer Parks".

That said, I think it was Treeseer that once reminded me not to throw the ladders away. Like woodchux said, they can be very useful for access only. Most recently I used one to inspect cabling in one of those old, low, widely spreading Live Oaks. There were no TIP's available above the cables without rigging some serious traverses, and the branches were low enough and big enough that the ladder was "... great for access" (and access only).

When the looking was over and the work started, I was On Rope.


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## The Lawn Shark (Mar 17, 2009)

Have your third party climber show you what drt and a blakes hitch is, Should only take him a couple minutes.


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 18, 2009)

*pics of my new bucket truck (well, new to me...)*

first time for adding pics so not sure if I did it write. Went to pc and did upload the 3 pics but not sure if they made it here successfully. If not will try again.


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## Tree Raptor (Mar 18, 2009)

*follow up to bucket pics...*

Well see that the pics made it but noticed in my haste that I spelled write wrong.... anyhow now I know how to add pics. 

2002 GMC 7500 
extended 13' chip box
3126 Cat diesel (246hp) 
just turned 36,000 miles
air brakes
a/c
stereo
7 speed Spicer tranny
65' Altec bucket LRV
and most importantly, new harness and lanyard....

Now I have to start looking for some "bucket" accessories.... 
on another good note a climber that is local to my area has offered to show me the "ropes" on some basic climbing and such. Realling looking forward to it...


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## woodchux (Mar 19, 2009)

Nice truck man !


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