# what to do when you cant climb anymore?



## greg carr

why does it seem every company big or small just uses up their climbers and tosses them aside.is it just me or does anyone else see this too?I know that just because a person is a natural climber doesnt mean he can sell the work or even over see a crew but there has to be something better than "sorry your shoulders are useless,hope you can find a job somewhere"
in my case its shoulders and my back.no one will hire a 40 year old injured climber and no one needs selling arborists right now.


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## SAMSON

willing to move?


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## John Paul Sanborn

greg carr said:


> no one will hire a 40 year old injured climber and no one needs selling arborists right now.



Greg, is sent the psot to a headhunter I know who works the hort industries.


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## MasterBlaster

*What will I do?*

I dunno, I'll be dead.


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## BIG BLUE

Dead or knot, ha-ha, I still find the energy to show the youngun's how to wave the wand. It's amazing what a good blade and a few sections will let you toss into the hummer. For all that under 8' sucker stuff my 20 year old hand snips are the trick. As for high views, and 40+ winds, a good cheater strap and a trusted crane operator make short time in the breeze. 'right MB? Great pics everybody, I went to the toy store and got a new printer, bla bla to catch up. Hope the operator is feling better after today's checkup. Best of luck in Lima. As the Wiz says, "It ws a good day, nobody died and nobody cried, pass the salt." Thank you all for the kick in the pants. I have been tearing my hair out until I read, re-read a few posts here.


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## xander9727

Always have a plan B. Never get to comfortable. If you don't currently have a plan B, start developing one. No one wants to be a slave to their job or broke without hope. I'm currently working on plan J............Things don't always go how we want them too. Not to worry plan I (certified arborist with own company) is still going well but ya never know.


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## Ekka

Tough call Greg. 

But over here aggrevation of a pre-existing injury is a workers comp claim, so I wouldn't want the risk either.

Also we run a business that relies on productivity, if the climber is getting too cosy or lazy ... bye bye!

Sounds like you should work for yourself at your own pace. That way you can take your time, if you need a break it's on your own time and not the bosses ... or worse still, the bosses compo insurance.

The standard to get a job in the local authorities here is a medical and fitness test and previous workers comp history.

Sorry mate, I'm a lot like you. And that's why I work for myself and run a small crew. I try to get climbers in and even have them all the time ... but they gotta be real good, safe and have clean bill of health otherwise I'll be paying the price. Another company I know pays 17.5% of salary as a workers comp premium! Stuff that.


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## greg carr

Yeah, I'm looking into financing to start my own thing now.I sure as hell wasnt slacking at the old job though.We brought in a steady amount of money and if I was on vacation or something the money really fell short.I think it was more of a personality problem.The owner didnt like me ?????ing about the crappy equiptment and lack of qualified workers while he showed up for an hour a day or took a few weeks to go skiing.basically he wanted more production every year with less people and never any more money for his regular guys.
Well now he has no certified arborists and no one with a commercial drivers license oh yeah and no one with a pesticide license. So I am going to set something up somewhere nearby,my old crew has already contacted me-I would not have called them-and asked for help finding jobs.I have the relationship with all his clients, hell even some of the summer help we've had never met the guy ,hes never there.
This isnt sounding bitter is it.


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## Reed

It sounds like you're just pressured and anxious.

Hope you get some funding and purchase some abilities to compete, I'd go after his client base and work a few then let them decide if you will be successful or not. Smear and dominate competition by money whores is standard business practice, encouraged in America so play into those rules a bit, put your toe in that current and if you treat a crew like I think you do and he treats them like you say he did, screw him. That's good business in my sense. 

Starting the tact here too, undercutting competition by halving their bids down 50% because my expenses are much less, their's are astronomical and that's not my fault.


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## rb_in_va

oakwilt said:


> Smear and dominate competition by money whores is standard business practice, encouraged in America so play into those rules a bit, put your toe in that current and if you treat a crew like I think you do and he treats them like you say he did, screw him. That's good business in my sense.



Reed,
This suprises me coming from you, but then again how well can you get to know someone over the internet?


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## Al Smith

I don't know your situation,but I know of several local tree companys,that are just bucket truck fliers.They seem to do fine,financialy.I,myself,made a bit of a change in employement about 15 yrs ago.It was more of a change of direction,than a change of jobs,having gone from construction,to maintanance.Look over your options,then go for it,good luck


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## Reed

Roger, 

it's treating a business like they've been acting. That's all. Think it best to roll-over and play dead? 

Down here, when faced against accepted tactic one has to dive a bit deeper and find tools they neither are expecting or know are available. 

Don't you have survival skills to tap of the need arises? I'll cheer for the underdog and more so if he has heart and the oppressor doesn't. Plenty of examples in the real world...equity through tact because convention more often fails. Just read the morning newspaper. 

Do you really believe that because Dow is big, there are right?


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## greg carr

I have a meeting with a free small business counceling service next week.they help put together business plans,get financing or grants if possible and give general advice on running a business.I know I can do it better than my old boss and I know I can get most of his client base without being underhanded.I will get pleasure watching him fold but my goal is much broader than that.I want to create a company where the climbers know they are appreciated and needed.Where there will be room to move into a training,selling or supervisory roll for them.I am ready to work my butt off getting this off the ground and I know I have at least two climbers who are ready to work with me.Im not impressed with the salesman earning up to 20% while the crew gets $18 an hour and works until dark while the salesman is home having a beer.And this was at most if not all of the companies Ive worked for.
I have a positive plan, I'll let you know how it works out.
Greg


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## greg carr

Oh and in between all that I might just climb a tree or two!!


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## rb_in_va

oakwilt said:


> Down here, when faced against accepted tactic one has to dive a bit deeper and find tools they neither are expecting or know are available.



Reed,
I guess I just never thought of you as so agressive in the business sense. It seemed to me that you were more concerned with other things like plant biology/pathology. You seem to approach the business end as a sort of tactical mission. I guess I never thought of it like that. Later, Roger.


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## Reed

Indeed you're right Roger, but when involved in disease work beyond just diagnostics it goes into treatments that include how others are acting. One example is spreading disease, and they certainly do it here. 

So there is the impetus for my concerns regarding other businesses. They often say they are practicing safe methods but it's like Exxon claiming concern for the environment. Advertising buzz words. 

Besides, I think it'll be fun running-off more than just a few non-qualified hackers, even increase my client base. Spent years trying to influence safer behavior here but when people get around money, it all goes by the wayside. That's what I meant about "getting a toe in the current". I have a huge backer now and am gathering the tools needed to dominate and destroy. The proof of whether or not this will remain a humanistic endeavor will come later, as no other tree company can locate here and compete and I set the price structures for work. It will remain too unprofitable for heavy profit seekers to stay. I am able to afford that and certainly so are the residents of this county. I plan to make no more than the highest-paid employee of my plans, that's the secret.


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## rb_in_va

oakwilt said:


> Besides, I think it'll be fun running-off more than just a few non-qualified hackers, even increase my client base



Nothing wrong with that. I see what your getting at now.



> It will remain too unprofitable for heavy profit seekers to stay. I am able to afford that and certainly so are the residents of this county. I plan to make no more than the highest-paid employee of my plans, that's the secret.



So you plan to run off the hacks and the huge tree companies. You can price yourself below what the hacks are charging?


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## Reed

I most cases, yes. Hazard trees over homes...my forte and equipped for it, the hacks w/ ladders and rental gear take advantage of the sticker shock from the big yellow page ad outfits, offer just a fraction less and get the work. I'll undercut it much better than that and do it safer, cleaner, insured, and create a return customer. 

Principle plan is something I've always lived with and greedy people can't....I'm more than happy with 6-8 hundred a week take home. I don't believe in paying over $12,000 for a personal truck and only when it's absolutely necessary (every 5-8 years), my home phone is adaquate for work, and it's quite a savings when I elect to not have a cable or a space receiver for entertainment. Also cut my own hair, mechanic my own possessions, and grow lots of what I eat. 

Even more so, the higher the job pays the more everyone working it makes. It's led to efficiency, expediency, and precision teamwork. It's a "growth" factor and it's not taught or encouraged in modern business tact. To their demise and my success.

Yeah, it's kind of like war. Facade of success mostly means the basics have been avoided. All flash and no gas. The most disgruntled employees I've ever met were wearing the flashiest uniforms and driving the most expensive trucks. Imagry only works if the image builders assume correctly that people think like they do. I don't think most people are anymore. They've been had too many times ala Enron and presidential politique. 

Think it's a go?


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## rb_in_va

oakwilt said:


> I'm more than happy with 6-8 hundred a week take home. I don't believe in paying over $12,000 for a personal truck and only when it's absolutely necessary (every 5-8 years), my home phone is adaquate for work, and it's quite a savings when I elect to not have a cable or a space receiver for entertainment. Also cut my own hair, mechanic my own possessions, and grow lots of what I eat.



$6-800/week? I'll take it! I also agree with your vehicle policy. Trucks are so expensive these days. When I bought my pickup I set a limit of $10k, but then again I only need a small rig. I would hate to see what my hair would look like if I cut it myself though. That is where I draw the line. It sounds like you've got this thing pretty well figured out (although it doesn't sound like as much fun as the boat idea). Later, Roger.


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## greg carr

I like your attitude Oakwilt! I'm not looking to make money off of an employee,I want to work with an employee to make a living for both of us.treat your customers and employees honestly and they will stick with you.live simply!


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## Reed

I was hoping I wasn't the last one left with that attitude. The fellows I learned the most from I'll always remember the best, were also the ones who treated me right, from employment to war to friends. The rest can live with whatever lives they manage. 

Boat?!?!

That's still the goal. The reason I want to keep building this tree service is to trade it for the boat. Instead of television every night I'm re-learning navigation. And the hair? The secret with that is left-handed scissors and a mirror on three walls. And yeah, it still comes out a bit ratty. 

I think the employee relationship thing is important too Greg. Was reading an article from a magazine about enterprize building and it focused on how to protect your inventory from inside theft, citing a statistic about 70% of all employees steal. Cameras, lie detector tests, search warrants, etc. All of it was built on trust, or in this case...lack of. I feel that they created the environment and employee attitude to led to this. Goes around comes around.

Oh, and that "take home" figure, I'll still need to take two new 200t's and a Bandit 60 out of it. My wife works and I also consult onsome leftover disease management. In the end and the published rules indicate I am still part of America's "poor". If I weren't a guinea pig for cancer research, which might end soon, I'll have to pay $3,000 a month for catastrophic care. Anything else breaks I've got a policy. 

Rather be poor like this than rich like Martha. Or Kenny.


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## MasterBlaster

Shoot, Martha's gonna make out like a big dawg.

Who's Kenny?


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## Al Smith

Enron


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## alanarbor

Just be sure you didn't sign a non-compete with your old employer....you could find yourself in a boatload of hot water!


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## dayman

Non-competes are invalid most of the time. Unless you steal customers which is very unethical, don't worry so much about them. Get hold of an employment attorney.

I don't care to use the cut/paste. It's much easier to just give the link.

http://www.cleanfax.com/article.asp?indexid=6635098


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## glens

It's more ethical to just give the link, as well.


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## Reed

Non-competes are as valid as a "not responsible for accidents" clause. Both worthless as the document they are written on. Try it out, you'll be suprized.

I haven't worked for another employer in trees since the 1970's. My contract work is always by invitation, never signed a single contract except for where they can send the money and how much. I can't believe workers are caving-in to clauses in "mandatory" obligations, must be out of fear to question. Two bit employers are on the bandwagon to limit liability and talk trash about attorneys but the first place they go to procure a document that they want to protect themselves with are....a lawyer's office. Not very good ones either apparently, because litigation so far has been successfully challenging these "threat" ammendments.


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## greg carr

My lawyer told me it go ahead and sign whatever my employer wants.If its not legal its not worth the paper..and he could get anything thrown out of court.


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