# John Deere vs. Garrett... wittle skidder



## northmanlogging (Aug 22, 2012)

Posted this in the heavy equipment section got no response... I am currently looking to buy a used old skidder. Its got to be small. like the garrett 15 or a john deere 440 any suggestions? Oh yeah and I'm broke so brand spankin new is out of the question


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## ShaneLogs (Aug 22, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Posted this in the heavy equipment section got no response... I am currently looking to buy a used old skidder. Its got to be small. like the garrett 15 or a john deere 440 any suggestions? Oh yeah and I'm broke so brand spankin new is out of the question



Have you tried a Heavy Equipment Trader magazine ?


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## Oldtimer (Aug 22, 2012)

The Garrett (tree Farmer) is anvil simple. Parts are all at NAPA. Full time 4wd, they crab walk fierce, and a sidehill will give you high blood pressure it will crab so bad. If it has a 353 Detroit (and it prolly does) buy stock in a hearing aid company, and buy a case of ether....and a 5 gallon pail of oil every week.

The 440 Deere is a little more complex, but it's faster, better on fuel, has lock in lock out axles (That alone is worth buying it for) and will usually start...and usually doesn't eat oil.
The only real downside to the 440 will be buying parts from Deere or aftermarket..likely a bit more expensive.

I'd buy the Deere. And I have owned a Tree Farmer...quite a bit newer than the Garrett aged stuff...but basically the same thing.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 22, 2012)

Thank you sir, thats more info then anywhere else...(i am not so good on the puter) the lockable/unlock axles would make life way easier... Most of the garretts around here have the v-4 ford a few are diesels, but i do love the racket of a detriot...


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## northmanlogging (Aug 22, 2012)

whats anybody know about the old Clark and International skidders?


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## Oldtimer (Aug 23, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> whats anybody know about the old Clark and International skidders?



Not much, but I'd take the deere over them all day. Same issue, no locking axles.


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## q-tip jr (Aug 23, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> whats anybody know about the old Clark and International skidders?



always thought the Clark winch was the bomb, 2 speed automatic was nothing to go far with in a hurry - fella next block to me ( in the 90's) had an S8 International - pulling son of a....
Funk transmission, not sure about parts. My Clark was a late 70's 666 - graple with a winch very reliable but that Detroit ouch.... my .02


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## paccity (Aug 23, 2012)

clarks are not to bad. this has a cummins v6. pull start the cats some times.


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## hanniedog (Aug 23, 2012)

Paccity where is the steering wheel or am I blind?


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## paccity (Aug 23, 2012)

hanniedog said:


> Paccity where is the steering wheel or am I blind?



ha! :msp_rolleyes:. sorry .:smile2: stick on the left of the seat. side to side steer. fwd back blade.


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## hanniedog (Aug 23, 2012)

Are there other makes that use that steering setup? Just used to seeing your normal type steering wheel. Seems it might get hard to control on rough terrain.


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## paccity (Aug 23, 2012)

it's really not that bad. i find it easier to use when looking back .and it's got a oh sh^^ bar. if you get to wild.


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## hanniedog (Aug 23, 2012)

Never driven a skidder. Thanks for the info, would surely take some getting used to.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 31, 2012)

uh oh Found a skidder gonna try not to jinx it but its maybe 2 miles from the house, runs, recent new motor, under $5k, I could drive it home!!! I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight


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## Slamm (Oct 31, 2012)

Do all 440's have the locking/unlocking diffs?
Because I had a 540A and it only had a locking diff on the front axle and not on the back axle unless something was broken and it just wouldn't unlock. My 540B's will out turn about anything I've seen or driven. With the diffs unlocked ......... which is always, you can walk through a woods and barely leave a track, while the locking diffs on the CAT skidder will leave huge ruts and push marks in the dirt at every turn and when turning it takes a lot of horsepower to roll a skidder with locked differentials through a turn ................. I hate fully locked differentials, I would buy Deere for that reason alone, but fortunately Deere Skidders have great engines and trannies to go with them. My two 540B skidders haven't had a quarter of the stuff that Timberjack and Cat Skidders always seem to be breaking and going wrong with them, and they always start no matter how cold it gets.

Sam


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## Oldtimer (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't know for sure aboot that A, but it could be it has a good working limited or even a full locker in the back. Though I recall the A I ran being like a go cart...it acted as if the rear was not binding.
I too will choose a Deere over most any other make. They are very well designed, and designed for production.


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## Slamm (Nov 2, 2012)

Your pics are just X's.

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Nov 4, 2012)

So I bought a skidder! 1971 Deere 440a, runs great new motor in 2001, hasn't been logging since, just been pushing snow in the winters


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## Oldtimer (Nov 4, 2012)

Good for you!

First things first! You have to name her. I called my Tree Farmer "Mona". My current JD is "Number 7" like the mule on the Grizzly Adams TV show.

Second, go easy on the old girl. Run light and fast, not heavy and slow.


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## rwoods (Nov 4, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> So I bought a skidder! 1971 Deere 440a, runs great new motor in 2001, hasn't been logging since, just been pushing snow in the winters








Enjoy. Ron


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## Slamm (Nov 4, 2012)

Looks good.

Make sure you wear a hard hat in that little cage, those little 440 and 540A cabs will knock you the F out.

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Nov 4, 2012)

Its got the previous owners name welded into the blade lucky me its an androgynous name (means boys or gurls, like volleyball, or swimming), I get to drive it home next saturday, should be fun, got to fix a small leak in the fuel tank and fuel line but should be ready to work after that. Now its a matter of keeping it busy at least part time, don't plan on quitting the machine shop just yet, but I should have enough to keep me busy next summer. It doesn't really freeze up here for more than a week or two, otherwise its just soggy and muddy


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## Icehouse (Nov 4, 2012)

You done good, great tires. Looks like you need motor side covers, maybe not might just not be on. I have a friend who has an A that he's using for parts. If you need PM me and I will try and get you in touch with him. My partner and I both have 440's, his an A mine a B model. Also in this area we have a great skidder mechanic, not bad on price, tons of experience. He probably isn't to far from you. Have fun


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## Slamm (Nov 4, 2012)

While you are messing with the tank and lines, you might consider getting rid of the mechanical fuel pump and then wiring in a $50 diesel rated fuel pump from NAPA or ORiellys, find a spot under the fuel tank to mount it. I try to put them on every diesel that I own, because it makes filter swaps and fast starts after sitting for awhile much easier.

If you are interested I'll get the part number for you, they are every bit as reliable as the mechanical ones and if you are paranoid about an electric pump failing you can wire a spare under the tank or in the engine bay somewhere, it doesn't take 15-30 minutes to swap one out .......... I've yet to have one go bad, I've had the mechanical ones fail 3 times.

Think about getting some Amsteel synthetic rope for the winch, you can put more footage on the same winch and it will save your winch and clutch and transmission a lot of abuse from having to respool the steel cable, plus you can just set your winch to freewheel and a kid can pull it out easily, lasts just as long as steel in my testing, but when you wear it down to 50' you can just add 50' of new spliced in and not waste any of the cable like you do with a steel cable.

Later,

Sam


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## Icehouse (Nov 4, 2012)

Not really paying attention, you would have to live in EASTERN wash to be by us. Parts would still be available just a little greater distance. Enjoy your new find.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 4, 2012)

there be a bunch of mountains in the way and a 9 hour drive, there is a bunch of Deere dealers around here, Most of the ones I've talked to have a stick up there huha though, but they can get the parts...


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## Slamm (Nov 4, 2012)

What tranny does that thing have in it? 8 forward and 4 in reverse?

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Nov 4, 2012)

Side covers and belly pan are in the garage, guy removed em to make maintenance easier? Plan on putting both back on seem like a big gamble to run without em especially the belly pan.

Its got the 8 forward 4 reverse, four speeds high low and reverse, that known as the powershift? kinda imply's that you don't need to clutch it to shift.

I should mention the last time I drove a skidder I was maybe 12 and my feet weren't big enough to hold the brake and the throttle... clark or a mountain logger my uncle used both, made it real fun (read funny) to pull a load in when the winch worked as reverse :msp_scared: spent most of my time dragging chokers around, and packing his saw... I'm pretty sure my ma's got pictures of my dumb### out there trying to carry that saw and look professional...


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## northmanlogging (Nov 4, 2012)

its got a new mechanical pump on it now with the manual primer, when it fails I would consider swapping in an electric pump. I am paranoid but if an emp hits the last thing I'm going to worry about is if the skidder runs could be good for zombies though...

Wifey says she ain't settin chokers if we're going after zombies though


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## redprospector (Nov 4, 2012)

Put one of those squeeze bulbs (for an outboard boat motor) in the fuel line before the filter. Best primer you'll ever find.

Andy


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## Slamm (Nov 5, 2012)

With the powershift you just use the foot "clutch" for starting heavy loads and then no clutch after that. You can not use the clutch for starting off in 1st gear and I do, but I was advised it was marginally better if loads were started with foot clutch.

Does it have the hand clutch that disengages the main clutch for easier starting?

Those little skidders are like climbing onto a pony after riding draft horses all day, I really like my 540A with those smaller tires on it, very handy little machine.

If you are working in the cold, I use a synthetic oil and it will start a lot easier and faster. I use Amsoil 5w-30 diesel oil in everything.

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Nov 5, 2012)

Not sure about the hand clutch, there was a forest of levers, and I only drove if for a little bit, I do like synthetic oils but I'm too cheap to buy em, used to work as a mechanic at an indoor go kart track, all we used was synthetic, and most of the time the chain would take off the rear oil lid and you would end up running without oil for 2 weeks, those motors ran hard with no governors for 4 years before the first one blew up, with no oil in it.

How often do you guys change the oil in these things anyway?

Anyway all good stuff, and keep it coming, now if I can find really cheap tires...


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## Slamm (Nov 5, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Not sure about the hand clutch, there was a forest of levers, and I only drove if for a little bit, I do like synthetic oils but I'm too cheap to buy em, used to work as a mechanic at an indoor go kart track, all we used was synthetic, and most of the time the chain would take off the rear oil lid and you would end up running without oil for 2 weeks, those motors ran hard with no governors for 4 years before the first one blew up, with no oil in it.
> 
> How often do you guys change the oil in these things anyway?
> 
> Anyway all good stuff, and keep it coming, now if I can find really cheap tires...



Are you are really steep stuff, if not those tires are just fine. If not then get chains, but those tires look just fine, as far as I'm concerned.

I think even if you are on really steep stuff, newer tires aren't going to do you as much good as chains on smoother tires. Newer tires aren't going to do much more than those tires are going to do for the money, but chains would make night and day difference ............. dollar for dollar.

Sam


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## Icehouse (Nov 5, 2012)

Our local deere guru, about 35 yrs on yellow stuff, says 100 hrs, only holds 9 quarts. You'll find 2 filters in front of battery box, 1 for transmission and the other for hydraulics (blade), both same number. Winch filter is same as motor oil filter, winch needs minimum of 900 lbs of oil pressure to operate brake band, release. Adjusting winch brake can be a real chore, special 3/4 wrench. I just bought a open end wrench that is offset on one end works pretty good. Check for small oil leaks up and under before putting belly pan on, there are all kinds of oil lines in there. The oil pump release lever is on left side of cowl above clutch, works good for cold starts, but be sure to re-ingage ASAP as this stops pump from pumping transmission oil and oil to main hydraulic pump in front under radiator. These are some "stuff" that I have learned over time, will think of more stuff later and let you know.


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## redprospector (Nov 5, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> How often do you guys change the oil in these things anyway?
> 
> Anyway all good stuff, and keep it coming, now if I can find really cheap tires...



The JD book calls for 250 hours between oil changes on my 440b. I try to keep it changed at 200 hours. I don't use synthetic's though.
Those tires look to have a little life left in them. Keep the pressure about 16 to 18 psi. and you should have plenty of traction. If not, do what slam said & get a set of chains. I run chains year around on mine. I fill the rear tires on mine with winter blend windshield washer fluid. It will make that tippy little Deere a lot more stable machine.

Andy


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## Icehouse (Nov 5, 2012)

Just a thought but most guys around here put their best 2 tires on back and chains on front. Will do well in most conditions, may have to put chains on rear if ice is a problem. I run front chains year around, my front tires are bald. The best chains are Trygg made in Norway, high dollar but worth it. Double or triple diamond are best, no ring chains, they just don't last. If you get rings keep a bag of 1/2" clevis for repair. I'll shut up now.


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## Oldtimer (Nov 6, 2012)

Chain up all 4 as soon as you are able. It's hard to not use that "clutch" pedal, but in time you can run the machine all day and not touch it. Gotta love Deere powershift trannys.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2012)

Its going to be tough to get em all chained up, but looks like the best option for the money. A guy can find "skidder chains" on CL here pretty often its just a matter of whether they fit... its not like they come with a tag on the inseem...

The power shift will be a new animal for me, shouldn't be to hard to figure out. What about shifting high to low or low to high? still no clutch needed?

And I talked to the guy today he's got the original maintenance, owners manual, and some other paper work for it, worth a small fortune on e-bay.


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## Slamm (Nov 7, 2012)

In short, you basically don't ever have to use the foot clutch if you don't want to. I was told that starting heavy loads ......... if the machine was already "loaded" should be done with the foot clutch, and this would provide marginal additional life to the tranny ........... I don't always do this, LOL.

Just shift into 1st and push to 2nd and push to 3rd all the way to 8th and never touch the clutch............ when "dozing" back and forth you can just toggle between forward 1st and backwards 1st by flipping the lever back and forth after the machine has come to a "sorta stop".

As to the hand clutch you do not need to engage it quickly, that is the main clutch between the engine and the tranny, which is why they start so easy when its disengaged, as there isn't any load on the engine. Let the engine warm up first and then engage it and let the hydro and tranny warm up. If the hand clutch isn't engaged nothing will move, not the blade, not the wheels not the winch, because the engine isn't hooked up to anything at that point.

Better of the 4 tires on the back and chains on the front is the best compromise of performance and cost. I love Ice Chains/I hate ring chains. Ring Chains just beat your brains in, especially on a small machine and rattle your machine to death in 4-8th gear. I personally rarely or barely ever use chains, but then I'm barely ever on anything that would be consided a slope anymore............ life is good, hills suck, LOL.

I use synthetic and change at 200 or less hours, but look into bypass filters, basically your engine will never wear out and you don't have to change your oil, with one of those and good oil, and leave your engine running ......... instead of start and stopping it. They idle for cheap, starting and stopping is hard on everything, that is the key to long engine life. A $500 starter, plus down time, buys a lot of diesel for idling the machine and reduce the starts and stops buy 80%.

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2012)

Diesel starters are ridiculously spendy, I put three in the truck this year... 2 reman cheapos and one new one from a reputable parts house (Napa) guess which one is holding up...

Plus starting and stopping is just hard on any engine, idling sips the fuel, you might burn what maybe 2-3 gallons in 8 hours (and that's an inflated number), to me thats a small price to pay for long engine life, no diesel oh well guess we're not working today, oh no engine guess we're not working this month, and we taint making no money this year...

Even the "flat" ground around here is has got a bit of a slope to it, but its not all steep mountain slopes and yarder territory, there are a few valleys between all these mountains, there just kinda narrow...


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## dnash (Nov 7, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> What about shifting high to low or low to high? still no clutch needed?



By the sounds of it, you have the syncro-shift transmission, not the powershift. Can you post a picture of the shifter/dash area? I'm not sure it can be driven in the same manner as the powershift.


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## Slamm (Nov 7, 2012)

If you have the syncro shift, the skidder is still good, but not as good as a skidder with the powershift. Take a pic of the shifter setup.

I drove a 440D and hated that transmission, basically the same skidder as a 540B but has the syncro tranny.

If you have the syncro shift you will be using the clutch .......... a lot. The powershift doesn't have a HIGH and LOW, it just has 8 forward gears and 4 backwards gears.

Sam


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2012)

Its dark when I get home and dark when I leave, and its 2 miles from home, so I will try to describe the shifter... directly to the right of the steering wheel there are two levers nearest to wheel is marked 1-5, 2-6, 3-7, 4-8, next one out is marked I, N, II, R. movment is forward and back with a sort of slolum course, not yer standard H shift pattern, there is a hand throttle sticking more or less straight out the top of the steering wheel housing, and to the far left is what I assume is the hand brake, unless its the mysterious hand clutch of which you speak... eh I dunno... I don't think the guy what sold it to me really knew what everything did, twas his father's or grandfather's. In addition in the center below the steering wheel is bar I was told engages the winch pto. and on the left side of the drivers seat is a T handle deal that connects to the winch I assume as well that that controls free spool, pull, and hold, former owner didn't know how it worked. Its a little different than the good old lever I'm used to... I'll try to get some more graphic images Saturday or Sunday, no promises though. Thanks again


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## Oldtimer (Nov 8, 2012)

It's not a true powershift. But still beats a torque convverter or a true standard.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 10, 2012)

Got it home today Barely... pulled off the road to let some angry people go by and the shaky fuel line had enough, took a 50 mile trip to get it fixed and about an hour of hand pumping, so a 10 min trip home ended up taking about 3 hours, got a spare tire out of the deal to. 

I was going to skip the pull out and just finish the last 1/2 mile home but... decided I should just to be nice, good thing too taint no where else to pull out and no shoulder to speak of.

Its a "synchro shift" whatever that means, and I'm pretty sure there is a family of bats in the air cleaner, runs fine at an idle anything over half throttle and she wants balk and spit blue smoke. I'll try and get some more picture up EENter nut is really bad today...


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## redprospector (Nov 10, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Got it home today Barely... pulled off the road to let some angry people go by and the shaky fuel line had enough, took a 50 mile trip to get it fixed and about an hour of hand pumping, so a 10 min trip home ended up taking about 3 hours, got a spare tire out of the deal to.
> 
> I was going to skip the pull out and just finish the last 1/2 mile home but... decided I should just to be nice, good thing too taint no where else to pull out and no shoulder to speak of.
> 
> Its a "synchro shift" whatever that means, and I'm pretty sure there is a family of bats in the air cleaner, runs fine at an idle anything over half throttle and she wants balk and spit blue smoke. I'll try and get some more picture up EENter nut is really bad today...



Synchro Shift is John Deere's way of saying Manual Transmission. It's what I have in my 440b, I started to say that earlier but you left out the P at the top of the left side shifter. Speaking of the P, if it doesn't want to come out of P on a hill (and it will not want to sooner or later), don't panic, and don't force it. If you're heading down hill, put the right shifter in R and ease out a little on the clutch, it'll slip right out. Just the opposite if you're heading up hill. Don't trust the Park station, or the hand brake when getting off the machine, put the blade down hard.
All in all, it's a decent system. A lot cheaper to work on than a power shift if you ever do have problems.

Andy


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## northmanlogging (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm thinking about moving the tires to the narrow mount side... If that's even possible. The wheels appear to be able to mount either way? Other than the obvious stability issue is there any other reason not to do this? As it is right now there is no fluid in the wheels that I can tell so I shouldn't need to call in for help from a tire store to pull this off, and then I could fit it in the back yard and tear out the fuel tank without the neighbors getting all uppity.


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## redprospector (Nov 12, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm thinking about moving the tires to the narrow mount side... If that's even possible. The wheels appear to be able to mount either way? Other than the obvious stability issue is there any other reason not to do this? As it is right now there is no fluid in the wheels that I can tell so I shouldn't need to call in for help from a tire store to pull this off, and then I could fit it in the back yard and tear out the fuel tank without the neighbors getting all uppity.



Hmm. Don't know, never thought about trying to make it more narrow. It's only 8' wide as it sit's with 18.4x26 tires. I think tearing the back yard fence out, and then replacing it would be easier. If I did have to narrow it, I sure wouldn't want to try to work it that way. Like I said earlier, they are pretty tippy.

Andy


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## northmanlogging (Nov 12, 2012)

More along the lines of tearing the wood shed out... it would probably fit I'm just not real comfortable driving it through there as is besides I can always move the welder allot easier


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## Driver625 (Nov 12, 2012)

Park it in the neighbors yard. Then they can't get uppity about it being in your yard. Just a thought.:msp_smile: I'd let you park it my yard but I can't guarantee my 6 yr old wouldn't drive off with it. She's a wild one.:msp_sneaky:


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