# lookin 4 everybodys advice



## big wood (Mar 31, 2008)

First Off Looking To See What U Guys Would Charge Per Hourly Rate On Bucket Truck / Chiper Plus 2 Groundcrew Plus One Bucket Guy. Reason For Asking Local Town Called And Wants To Clear Trees Back From Highway .....we Counted 97 Trees In Total That Has To Be Trimmed Away Just On The North /south Route. Any Advice Would Be Helpful.


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## masterarbor (Mar 31, 2008)

big wood said:


> First Off Looking To See What U Guys Would Charge Per Hourly Rate On Bucket Truck / Chiper Plus 2 Groundcrew Plus One Bucket Guy. Reason For Asking Local Town Called And Wants To Clear Trees Back From Highway .....we Counted 97 Trees In Total That Has To Be Trimmed Away Just On The North /south Route. Any Advice Would Be Helpful.



just a suggestion: charge $65.00-$75.00 per man, per hour. i wouldn't try to gouge a township. they are used to seeing bids from tree companies. if you're not too sure what they're expecting, and if you really want the job, go $65.00. i wouldn't go cheaper than that. it's a chance for a lot of people to see your sign on the truck, too. 

good luck,
kevin


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## TDunk (Mar 31, 2008)

$65 an hour seems a little cheap to me for 3 people, a bucket truck, and a chipper. For me, i'd be a little closer to $90-$100 an hour for all the equipment you'll be using. With fuel at 4.25 a gal. and gas at 3.41 a gal, it won't take long to rack up a couple hundred bucks in fuel. As long as your just trimming tree limbs overhanging the road way, then you could probably opperate at 65, but that'd be as low as i would go. But Master made a good point about that alot of people will see your truck while doing the work. I.E. more buisness.


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## palogger (Mar 31, 2008)

TDunk the way i see it he is recommending $65 per hour for each each guy


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## masterarbor (Mar 31, 2008)

$65.00 per man per hour. 3 men would be $195.00 hr. $1320.00 day

i think this is as low as you should go. 

kevin


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## big wood (Apr 1, 2008)

guys i realy thank you for your imput i was thinking around the 1000.00 dollar per day. thank you for all imput on the matter


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## TDunk (Apr 1, 2008)

palogger said:


> TDunk the way i see it he is recommending $65 per hour for each each guy



Ya i'm retarted.


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## lxt (Apr 1, 2008)

I am lost in the fact that you would need to ask, Seriously!!!

I see posts/threads like this & gotta wonder.........how long have you been in biz. cause anybody thats legit & has the software... knows their profit needs, man hours, own wages, maint., etc...

I dont know???? Bidding is not that hard unless you are NEW!!, if so I apologize, but none the less you should have an idea of how long it will take, Put that into your software add in a fudge factor & whala.....you have your BID!!!


LXT.................


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## masterarbor (Apr 1, 2008)

lxt said:


> I am lost in the fact that you would need to ask, Seriously!!!
> 
> I see posts/threads like this & gotta wonder.........how long have you been in biz. cause anybody thats legit & has the software... knows their profit needs, man hours, own wages, maint., etc...
> 
> ...




everyone has to start somewhere. but it is true that if you have all of your insurance and workers comp, that you should have a VERY KEEN sense of your operating costs. BTW, i would think the township would want proof of all of your insurances. better have 'em ready.

good luck,
kevin


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## arbor pro (Apr 1, 2008)

Figuring out what to charge for each guy and for each piece of equipment is a big part of the equation but there is more to consider. As lxt stated, first you need to know what your operation or overhead cost is per hour. This figure should exclude the cost of owning and operating your large equipment. 

For your overhead cost, you add up your insurance, advertising, maintenance expenses, cost of small equipment and other annual expenses then divide that by the total number of working hours you can put in in a given year (ex: 50wks x 40 = 2000 hrs). That will give you a dollar figure for your overhead per hour of operation. 

Then, you figure out your payroll operating costs including taxes, insurance, training, etc. if you haven't already figured this into overhead. Divide your payroll cost by your working hours in a year and you now know the minimum you have to charge for labor to break even on it.

Next, figure your cost of equipment including loan principal or lease payments, interest, insurance, maintenance, reparis, depreciation, fuel etc. and anything else that you have not already figured into your overhead costs for each piece of equipment. Divide the total annual operating cost for each piece of equipment by the total number of actual hours you will put on it in a given year (typically not going to be as many hours as labor). Now you know how much it costs to operate your chipper vs your bucket truck vs your dump truck. Each should have its own hourly cost of operation.

Add all of these together and you now know what your minimum operating expense per hour is for a three man crew running a bucket truck and chipper. Mind you, I said 'minimum' as in break even cost. Now, you have to figure in how much profit per hour you need to make for your own salary (if you're not included as an employee) and for your business to grow and prosper. 

You're still not done. Now you add the 'difficulty' factor to the bid. This is a factor that can be less or more than 100% of your base bid that is determined from your 'gut feeling' about the job. For jobs that are extremely easy with little danger or maybe during times when things are a bit slow, you might take your bid times a factor of 0.90 and end up with a final bid smaller than what you normally would charge - BUT, you at least do this knowing what you normally would charge. For difficult jobs that are going to be a major pain in the butt, you might take you bid times a factor greater than 1.0 to give you a cushion for things that might go wrong.

Finally, don't forget mileage, hauling and disposal fees for the job. How far do you have to travel? Where will you dispose of chips, logs, stumps? Are you considering drive time for your employees and equipment?

When you come up with your bid price, you should know exactly what your costs associated with the job will be and what your bottomline profit will be. If you can't sit down and pick out these numbers with every bid that you give then, you are just guessing at your numbers.

If you are new in business, you need to know the bid process before you start throwing numbers out there that someone in another part of the country suggests for you. Would you buy a house on the east coast based off of what someone tells you he paid for his house in Iowa? Doesn't make sense does it? Well, asking for tree service rates over a forum like this makes about as much sense. Granted, equipment operating costs might be similar coast to coast but labor and overhead differ greatly. 

Personally, I get $65/hour here in the midwest for labor and small equipment but I fully understand that someone on the coast might have to get way more than that to cover his overhead and payroll expenses. How did I come up with my rate? Well, every year, I break down my expenses just like I outlined above. I constantly update and tweak my prices based on fuel price changes, insurance, etc. How else can you keep up with the times and stay afloat in a changing economy?

If you are new and don't yet know what to expect for overhead, payroll and equipment costs, it doesn't mean you can't get into business and compete for tree work - it simply means you need to look deeper into what the costs of operation truly are than just generically asking 'what do I charge for a three man crew with chipper and aerial bucket'? The responses you get, while well-intentioned may be totally unsuitable for your business. Instead, ask folks in your specific region questions like, 'how much does it cost per hour to operate a morbark tornado chipper and chip truck?', 'how much per hour to operate a 1990 F700 forestry truck with hi-ranger boom'?, 'how much does a $12/hr employee actually cost per hour with taxes, insurance, benefits, etc added in'? And so on and so forth until you know all of your numbers for your specific region.

You can also call your small business association. They have free resources (retired business owners) available to help you put together a business plan and come up with a list of things to factor into operationg costs so you can confidently come up with the right bid for each and every situation. When I first started my own business some 15 years ago, I asked the same questions that are being asked on this forum. However, I asked them of people in my geographic area - not all over the country where operating costs vary dramatically as well as the weather conditions which factor into how many weeks/year you can actually be in operation. If you divide your operating costs by only 35 weeks a year due to a long winter, that will give you much higher hourly operating costs than if you use 50 weeks/year as somone in a warmer climate might. 

Sorry about the long post but, this is a topic that I am very passionate about. I taught landscape architecture and construction at Iowa State U for two years and took students completely through the bid and construction process. There's a lot to consider and I hate to see a new person post the wrong questions and make the wrong assumptions.


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## yooper (Apr 1, 2008)

TDunk said:


> Ya i'm retarted.



Excelent post arbor pro. 
As for you TDunk dont feel bad, would ya like a ride on my bus?:biggrinbounce2:


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## lxt (Apr 1, 2008)

arbor pro, you should send him a bill for that post!! pro just gave you the equivalent to a small biz plan.........lots of good info in that post that no doubt took along time to aquire & learn!! Honestly I wouldnt have given out the info in such full detail...........you need to thank arbor...Big time!!

I figure if your in biz...LEGALLY these things are just everyday common knowledge, I dont know if you were fishin for info or seriously inquiring??

Good Luck to ya & hopefully you land the deal!!!


LXT..............


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## TDunk (Apr 1, 2008)

yooper said:


> Excelent post arbor pro.
> As for you TDunk dont feel bad, would ya like a ride on my bus?:biggrinbounce2:



As long as i get the back seat and get to lick the windows.........i'm game.


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## arbor pro (Apr 1, 2008)

I'm feelin' the love. Let's keep them rep points comin'...


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## big wood (Apr 1, 2008)

lxt first off im not new to the biz ,but im new to the site . i just ask a simple question to see what everybodys goin rate was all around the world . didnt ask for any smart comments ,just a simple answer . thank you to all that replied.


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## pdqdl (Apr 1, 2008)

*I got just what you want...*



big wood said:


> i just ask a simple question to see what everybodys goin rate was



I base my bids on $85/hr for chipper truck with operator. $40/hr for lower wage rate groundmen. $75/hr for climber or second high dollar machine on the job. I include estimated road time and disposal charges. Sometimes I add a few % points for my time. 

If working purely on an hourly basis, I usually quote those prices. Can't help you on the bucket truck, as I got rid of my dinosaur. I used to charge $75/hr for it, with operator.


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## reachtreeservi (Apr 1, 2008)

Way to break it down, ARBOR PRO !

Great post.


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## juststumps (Apr 1, 2008)

big wood said:


> guys i realy thank you for your imput i was thinking around the 1000.00 dollar per day. thank you for all imput on the matter



thats way cheap....

fiqure 4 times your payroll...

IE: 3 men at $20/HR, =$60/HR X 4 = $240/HR X 8 HRS =$1920 per day

this should cover every thing...

depending on your overhead,, region,,you might want to go cheap.. 3 times...

IE: 3 men at $20/HR, =$60/ HR X 3 = $180/ HR X 8 HRS= $1440

thats about as low as i would go, for a bucket, chipper and 3 men...


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## Lumberjack2277 (Apr 2, 2008)

Bucket truck and operator $ 65.00, with a 4-hour minimum... $30.00 an hour each groundman pulling limbs... If i run the Skid-steer its $65.00 an hour with operator.... and if I break out the Big Caterpillar IT14G I charge $95.00 an hour with operator.... Each job is different, but I view each job with these guidelines. I pay my ground guys $15.00 an hour, and if its a good operator he makes $22.00 an hour. If I use an 18' trash dump, I charge $150.00 a load... when i get the truck "loaded", I throw a saw and an experienced sawman in the back, and he'll cut the load down quick to be able to haul more!! (you'd be amazed how much more you can stuff if you do this!) 
My only overhead is fuel, insurance, wages and buying all Lunch!!
This is prices in Southern Alabama, and where all about the same!! (SOMETIMES)


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## arbor pro (Apr 2, 2008)

Lumberjack2277 said:


> My only overhead is fuel, insurance, wages and buying all Lunch!!
> QUOTE]
> 
> Are you saying you have never itemized the following overhead expenses?
> ...


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## arbor pro (Apr 2, 2008)

juststumps said:


> thats way cheap....
> 
> fiqure 4 times your payroll...
> 
> ...



?????????????????????????????? where in the world do you come up with a number based solely off of payroll? I assume you have taken equipment, overhead, profit and other expenses into account and that total cost comes out to around 3-4 times your payroll cost??? If so, maybe that ratio works for you but I sure wouldn't blindly lead some other bloke into thinking that the same ratio will work for him...

...unless of course, you'd like to see your competition go bankrupt from assuming other people's business plans rather than develop their own?

Come on guys, there is no QUICK AND EASY answer to the original question of 'how much do I charge for...' Each business owner has to figure that out for himself using his numbers in his geographic area. Period.

Oh yeah, and in my earlier lengthy post, I forgot to include a paragraph about profit. Obviously, you can't just come up with a bid that doesn't include some amount of profit - not unless you want to run junk equipment for the rest of your life and eat ramen noodles 3 times a day. Each business owner has to figure out what level of profit will ideally suit his lifestyle, his expenses, his needs. I can't tell juststumps how much to charge hourly because I don't know how much profit he should include in his hourly rate in order to give him adequate money to live off of annually and, if he has a family, to keep shoes on their feet. (though maybe you southerners do tree work barefoot so you don't need to pay for boots)? :monkey:


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## lxt (Apr 2, 2008)

big wood said:


> lxt first off im not new to the biz ,but im new to the site . i just ask a simple question to see what everybodys goin rate was all around the world . didnt ask for any smart comments ,just a simple answer . thank you to all that replied.





Nobody gave you a smart answer!! If your inquiring about regions & going rates elsewhere thats one thing, but your opening post came across like you were *NEW* & asking for help on bidding a contract????

If your not NEW.......then why ask? & what does it matter what someone charges in BFE, cause you dont live there!!

LXT............


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## Lumberjack2277 (Apr 2, 2008)

No Arborpro, I have NEVER itemized the following overhead expenses....

I Own a Local Sign and Vinyl Graphics business...... Theres my signs.....

I Own several pieces of property in GREAT advertsing locations......

I Own a Towing and Recovery Business.... theres my extra office space and property to park everything.....

We had a hurricane down here awhile back (Katrina), and a wealthy Oil Tycoon came down and brought several pieces of Machinery with him.... About $400,000.00 worth. To make a long story short, he lost any and all govt. contracts he had, and went back home. He even illegally parked all of that expensive equipment...and me having a Towing Service, I was the lucky one chosen by the Local Autorities to Tow said equipment! 
Can you believe that man NEVER came and claimed all of that expensive equipment?!?!? Hence how I got all my machinery for free.....

I totally agree that everyones situation is different, and in mine I CAN simply figure my estimates just that easy!!

And in case anyone is wondering, us Southerners DO wear boots... not barefoot! You can normally tell by the bootprint in your A**!!


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## arbor pro (Apr 3, 2008)

Lumberjack2277 said:


> We had a hurricane down here awhile back (Katrina), and a wealthy Oil Tycoon came down and brought several pieces of Machinery with him.... About $400,000.00 worth... Can you believe that man NEVER came and claimed all of that expensive equipment?!?!? Hence how I got all my machinery for free.....



Lucky SOB... 



Lumberjack2277 said:


> And in case anyone is wondering, us Southerners DO wear boots... not barefoot! You can normally tell by the bootprint in your A**!!



I must have had a rougher day than normal yesterday - in reading some of my posts from yesterday, they come across a bit arrogant. No need for arrogance on this forum so, my appologies. Anyone who was put off by my posts can put your southern boots soundly in my A** where they belong...


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## Lumberjack2277 (Apr 3, 2008)

No harm mean't by anyone... Arbor Pro we all have those days!!!! LOL!!!! And some of that equipment is being sold CHEAP!!! Need anything, ask!!!!


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## treeclimber jul (Apr 3, 2008)

wish you were closer to me Lumberjack2277


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## treemandan (Apr 3, 2008)

lxt said:


> arbor pro, you should send him a bill for that post!! pro just gave you the equivalent to a small biz plan.........lots of good info in that post that no doubt took along time to aquire & learn!! Honestly I wouldnt have given out the info in such full detail...........you need to thank arbor...Big time!!
> 
> I figure if your in biz...LEGALLY these things are just everyday common knowledge, I dont know if you were fishin for info or seriously inquiring??
> 
> ...



I do not have software but after years I can look at a job and know how to bid for my time. I know what others bid and I know even though they have software they might get the job.


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## juststumps (Apr 4, 2008)

arbor pro said:


> ?????????????????????????????? where in the world do you come up with a number based solely off of payroll? I assume you have taken equipment, overhead, profit and other expenses into account and that total cost comes out to around 3-4 times your payroll cost??? If so, maybe that ratio works for you but I sure wouldn't blindly lead some other bloke into thinking that the same ratio will work for him...
> 
> ...unless of course, you'd like to see your competition go bankrupt from assuming other people's business plans rather than develop their own?
> 
> ...


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## ironray (Apr 10, 2008)

lxt said:


> & whala.....you have your BID!!!
> 
> 
> LXT.................



You really meant "voila.... you have your BID!!!" didn't you?  

I knowed you was just funnin' us.:monkey:


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## Little's (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks Arbor Pro. That was a very informative post. Lengthy, but worth it.


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