# Clean ups



## kevintree (Dec 30, 2003)

Hello all


What rake do you find best to use?

Jumped in to help rake up and 30 inch plastic rake was useless end had worn straight no curve ends to rake with (Think Ames but not sure)

TIA

Kevin


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## Lumberjack (Dec 30, 2003)

It depends on the tree and the mess.

For dead wood twigs like on oak, the plastic rake does well, to put the finishing touches on it.

To get the bigger stuff up, a stiff tonged rake does best.

To get up pine straw I perfer a steel tined flexable rake.

To pick the stuff up I use a pitch fork. It has 5-6 tines so that makes it an ensialage fork? We just call it a pitch fork.

Carl


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## Tree Machine (Dec 31, 2003)

I tend to use tarps when it's not too hot, saves a lot of raking. When the mess is extensive, tarps are magical. If the mess is minimal, its more worth it to leave the tarps alone and just rake.

I hate raking. Hate it worse than anything. Gross misappropriation of talent. I favor a backpack blower that's rated at _least_ 220 MPH. If you have one guy on rake, and one guy on blower, in synch, and working together as a team, the blower can multiply the rakers efforts, and vice versa, and the two can clean-sweep large areas of drop-zone with amazing swiftness. Raker guy should decide where the raking's going to happen, and blower guy just stay tight with him.

In an era long ago, I used the widest plastic rakes I could find. I took adhesive-backed aluminum tape (duct tape can be used, but it doesn't last as long). Tape across all the slots between the tines, all the way to where the teeth curve. Tape BOTH sides, so you get adhesive-to-adhesive contact. Then, with someone driving 10-20 mph, you drag those teeth on the pavement for a block or so, at the approximate angle that you generally rake at. This 'adjusts' the teeth so that when you rake, all the teeth get a consistent bite.

This rake now serves multiple purposes: sawdust and fines carrier, sidewalk swoosher and I remember it working really well as advertisement. People were intrigued with these rakes and I got a lot of comments, and then they'd hire me. 

These days I'm back to those that Brian describes. I stow my rakes vertically on my chipper, and I tend to drop limbage as close as possible, which means sometimes the chipper gets whacked (i.e the _rakes_ get whacked. With the metal ones, you just bend em back. With the plastic ones that you've sunk a half-hour into creating, iss not so good. -TM-


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## Lumberjack (Dec 31, 2003)

Forgot to say that. My groundies (they do most of the raking, i help load brush and heave stuff) also use a tarp. They rake the stuff on to the tarp and then pic up the tarp and dump it onto the trailer, much faster than a wheel barrow. 

A blower does work wonders, exspecially if the owner doesn't mind the debris being blown into the woods adjacent to his place.


Carl


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## Stumper (Dec 31, 2003)

Ah... Brian knows this biz! Steel tined, spring backed rakes are the most efficient.To get the most out of the rake you need the right technique. I don't know that I can put it into words but reaching out and pulling the rake halfway to you ain't it. Stand sideways to the direction in which you are moving material, reach back to behind the material, sweep forward past your feet and fling that stuff in the direction it needs to go. Actually standing perpendicular to the direction of raking isn't really it. This is a dynamic action involving the whole body. The hips pivot back toward the already cleaned area then rotate as you sweep the trash toward your objective. When I'm seriously raking there is a short step forward on every sweep. I traverse the area in one direction and turn, switch hand position and traverse back moving material. Come on now -Let's get it DONE!


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## Stumper (Dec 31, 2003)

I'm assuming that Krystal is a local establishment or restaurant chain as opposed to 'Krystal burgers' being a step toward the final disposition of a former girlfriend? Sorry you are hurting. 

One of the other things that Dad drilled into me when I was only a kid was-"Rake it toward the truck". Raking away from the disposal area and making neat little piles wastes too much effort. It's amazing how many guys stare at you in befuddlement then slowly say "Oh, I never thought of that."


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## Tree Machine (Dec 31, 2003)

*Oh how I hate raking*

If I'm alone (as I am most jobs) and laid no tarps, I do rake into tight piles, quickly, because (did I mention) I HATE RAKING. This would be where the area is sizable. I find that if I rake toward the truck, I seem to rake the same stuff over and over and over, with the pile getting heavier with every stroke. If I have to do this across some distance, it is, to me, a pure form of agony.

Once I have all the piles pulled together, I go around with a small tarp, lay it down adjacent to the pile. Standing on the edge of the tarp, legs spread-eagle so the tarp edge under you is tensioned, facing the pile, pull the pile beteen the legs onto the tarp and move on to the next one.

If the yard is small, however, probably just rake it all toward the truck.

Brian, good tip on terming the task in the proper light. This illuminates well how a ten-minute job can become a 40 minute job if you simply tell em to 'grab a rake'. I'll never make that mistake again. -TM-


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## treeman82 (Dec 31, 2003)

Most people around my neck of the woods prefer to use either the 60 gal green buckets, or heavy duty trash cans. The tarp idea sounds good though.


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## Stumper (Dec 31, 2003)

TM, I won't say that I never rake into piles- If there are large clean areas between the mess and the truck then trashcanning or tarping it out makes good sense. As far as the junk piling up to the point that it gets difficult to rake-Yeah that happens. When it occurs I either grab an armful or the can (dependent upon the distance to the truck and the 'consistency' of the debris) and clear it out to the point I can rake efficiently. Cleaning the 'pile in the making' several times is still quicker than isolating piles because it makes for only one final clean-up spot instead of several areas to pick up tiny twigs,leaves and sawdust.


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## graemenz (Dec 31, 2003)

Hi the way we do it (if there is two of us ) is to rake the debris into the middle in a line leading to the truck . Then I drag a small tarp with a couple of small pieces of branch wood in the bottom corners towards the truck , and the groundie flicks the debris into the tarp as it passes over . If you are both motivated it gets the final clean up done in double quick time .


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *"Rake it toward the truck". Raking away from the disposal area and making neat little piles wastes too much effort. *





Unless its 100 feet from the chipper, and you have a container to put it in, those 'little piles' are a waste of time. Justin's dad was right - MOVE IT TOWARDS THE CHIPPER!

I'm amazed how many people do not know how to rake efficiently.


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## Lumberjack (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Unless its 100 feet from the chipper, and you have a container to put it in, those 'little piles' are a waste of time. Justin's dad was right - MOVE IT TOWARDS THE CHIPPER!
> 
> I'm amazed how many people do not know how to rake efficiently. *



For me, having 2 people raking in to little piles, and another person draging a tarp and raking the piles onto the tarp works well on flat grassy yards. Other times the guy will use a large wheel barrow.

That seems to be the best setup I know of right now.


Carl


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## monkeypuzzle (Dec 31, 2003)

I' was taught to all-ways give the customer just a little more than they expect. 

Screw around and leave a mess over by the air conditioner unit and the folks will remember, not that it's that bad to do. I'd rather my crew leave a chainsaw in a backyard than a sawdust covered driveway. The day we knocked off for Thanksgiving I went by a job and the roof was covered with sawdust, and the lady knew too. I took care of it myself. It happens.

The ''more than they expect'' type of service is like when there is a hanger thats been in the azaleas for 4 months or any noticable limb laying around on the other side of the house, get it out- a- there. 10-20 min. is nadda to me. I look for hangers just to pull out my throwball and toss it around. Folks love free stuff.

Yes sir, clean up is very important.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 31, 2003)

I like the plastic rakes with the narrow fan (not srub rakes, smarty pants!) and stiff tines. The Union lable seem to be the most durable.

I to help with the cleanup, unless otherwise asked. I'm the rake into piles and laod onto tarps.

Tom's tobogin for the ATV is neat too.

As for raking methodology, I espouse the "Start from the edges and work in" technique. One aquaintance calls it "like a coloring book". I roll my eyes when people start in the middle.

For me raking is a zen thing. A rest from the climbig.

One other little aspect is to encourage the gorund workers to maintain one "dragpath". the shortest distance to the chipper is not allways the quickest way to get the job done.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 31, 2003)

Carl,

You seem to be doing a lot of rather big jobs. Something that I am wondering about. How do handle Liability Insurance? I would think it would be hard for a guy of your age. Unless your state is different than mine. Thanx, Rich.


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## Dobber (Dec 31, 2003)

*clean up*

everyone seems to always leave clean up untill the end, why? I have always had the rake on the lob during the work, not just pull it out at the end. if there is some down time for the ground man then he should be looking for something to do and raking is always a good idea. If there is a pile of rakings ready to throw on a brush pile while he is dragging it to the truck, it makes the job go that much faster.


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 31, 2003)

I use the 24" plastic rakes from Home Depot. When the tines wear down they become "treet rakes", almost as good as sweeping. 

Raking to me and John is alone time, time to meditate a little. Doesn't mean that anyone can rake faster than me though. 

We'll generally rake into piles within a radius of the rake handle then pile those into the ATV tub, about five feet a long, 2.5 wide and 1.5 deep. Drop the rope on the hitch and deliver to chipper. 

In the winter I use plastic scoop forks that I bought at Fleet Farm. I think they're used for pooper scoopers around horses. They sift the twigs out of the snow really well.

Tom


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## Lumberjack (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *Carl,
> 
> You seem to be doing a lot of rather big jobs. Something that I am wondering about. How do handle Liability Insurance? I would think it would be hard for a guy of your age. Unless your state is different than mine. Thanx, Rich. *




Something I wonder about also. So far, I have said that I have no insurance. That for the most part is true, but I am covered under the insurance for the stump grinding company. For most of my jobs, my name is all the insurance they need. It is fairly common for them to ask about insurance, and I tell them no I don't have any. I think that I have lost 2-3 jobs in 4 months because of that (2 of which I am fixin to get hopefully, as they haven't been done yet).

I am friends with the insurance agent, and he said that he would have to check, but he thinks that I am safe under the exsisting plan, as a employee of my father, even tho it is another company, neither are incorparated, so we are thinking that I covered.

So, right now I say I don't, I am 90% sure that I am covered under my father, and we are fixing to get that in writing. After that it will be clear sailing, free insurance, can't beat that!


Carl


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## TREETX (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *he thinks that I am safe under the exsisting plan, as a employee of my father, even tho it is another company, neither are incorparated, so we are thinking that I covered.
> *



That'll hold up in court 

I would make sure he has it right, it is cheap for a really small operation.


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## Lumberjack (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *That'll hold up in court
> 
> I would make sure he has it right, it is cheap for a really small operation. *




Yea, it would hold up in court, we just want to make sure that I am safe to advertise that I have insurance. We both have read the policy, which is for tree trimming/removal. It is an individuals insurance policy, not the company's. I am a minor, and he is my legal gardian, so that makes me his responsiblity. Then I also work for him, so I am covered, I just want it in righting so I can advertise that.

Would like those 2 jobs tho. 1300 dollars, could do it in a 1 1/2 to 2 days with about 300 in labor only exense, cept gas and other hidden costs.

I don't mind clearin 500 a day

Carl


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## Menchhofer (Dec 31, 2003)

I have been sold on the 30" plastic rakes for about the the past few years (not the cheap ones). We go through about 3-4 a year and they seem to do fine. The idea on the tape with the rake may become a possiblity.

Also use the Power-trac bucket on alot of jobs. Saves alot of time..otherwise, large plastic (35 Gallon trash can) is used. 

Tarps seem to get very heavy very quickly when debris is placed on them.


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## Lumberjack (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Menchhofer _
> *Tarps seem to get very heavy very quickly when debris is placed on them. *



They can and do. The trick for me is to pull it up the rear of the trailer either on the ramps, or on some 2x12's. That makes it real easy.

When we clean up stumps we use a plastic trash can, as they stand up better to the weight, or a wheel barrow, or both.

Carl


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## Stumper (Dec 31, 2003)

The big plastic rakes do have their uses. They can get things really clean and are good for picking up fines-undoubtably moreso when modded ala TM. However, if you want to clean up fast, move large quantities of material quickly and effectively pick junk out of the rocked beds without carrying off a ton of rock, then a steel tined rake with a heavy head is the right tool.


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## okietreedude1 (Jan 1, 2004)

We used to go buy the $20 fibergl??? handle rakes from Lowe's but we have almost completley switched to the $5 from Walmart. Definately steel tines. Have used the plastic 'things' from Sears and they were decent when they were new but quickly wore down and stunk in dead wood situations.

As for the tarp idea, we have one in just about every truck. 6'x8' is just about the right size to not load up to heavy. 

When im teaching a newbie about cleanup, i like to tell them to clean up the yard like they would want their own cleaned up if they were the ones paying big $. sometimes it works. As for raking, I almost prefer to do it. As they say, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 1, 2004)

We took down a very dead, very huge Cottonwood on to tall frozen gra$$, and spent hours raking. That job got us talking about a machine that could take on this task. Anyone use a gas powered broom?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 1, 2004)

A couple of times, you gotta get all the bigger twigs out of the way though. Works great on locust dead debris.


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## jimmyq (Jan 1, 2004)

about the gas broom. I have used one a few times, I think it was a stihl.. if you use it on pavement be prepared to wear whatever it is you are sweeping, the bristle type (vs. the paddle type) would probably be reasonable on turf but you would have to be careful with the amount of pressure you put on it to the ground, it would probably thresh the ground just nice if you put weight on it. on a personaly note, I was working for a guy that got one thrown in on an insurance claim order of a few 1000 bucks as a thanks, he would rev the heck out of it and hit the ground at full throttle, he was hilarious, just covered in mud splats after doing the parking lot.


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## Koa Man (Jan 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *We took down a very dead, very huge Cottonwood on to tall frozen gra$$, and spent hours raking. That job got us talking about a machine that could take on this task. Anyone use a gas powered broom? *



I have a Shindaiwa power broom and use it on some jobs, depending on what we are cutting. I always use it on stump grinding jobs. It will take just about every little piece of wood chip out of the lawn far better than a blower. You can't beat it if the debris are wet. It will sweep about as fast as you can walk and clean it better than any amount of raking on one sweep. If you buy the multi attachment power head, you can quick change to line trimmer, hedge trimmer, power broom, chanin saw and I think they even have a blower attachment (I know Echo does) that would be very useful for clearing out leaves under shrubbery.
I have the line trimmer and hedge attachment for mine.

As far as rakes go, I use the Walmart steel tines rakes which I have found to last longer than the Union and Ames rakes. I pay $4.49 each here and buy a dozen at a time. They will usually last me about 4 months each. I normally carry 3 rakes in the truck.

Edited to change two words which came out with ??? instead of letters. G r a s s and p a s s. Are they on some kind of banned list of words?


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## alott (Jan 3, 2004)

*tarps and rakes*

YOU ALL HAVE IT CORRECT . I THINK WE ALL HATE RAKING, SEAMS AS IF IT WILL NEVER END. TOOK OUT TWO 102' PINES, CLEANED UP A LITTLE AS WE WENT. WHAT A MESS LOT OF SAW CHIPS. PLASTIC RAKES ARE OK . BUT WHEN WE BUCK UP LARGER STUFF WE LAY A TARP DOWN BEFORE WE CUT IT DOWN ,THEN BUCK IT UP . ITS AMASING HOW MUTCH TIME IS SAVES ,JUST SHOVEL WOOD CHIPS IN TRUCK FOLD TARP YOU ARE DONE. THE STUFF THAT GETS AWAY WE USE ONE OF THE ELETRIC BLOWER VACS RUN OFF A POWER INVERTOR FROM TRUCK (DONT USE CUST POWER JUST DOESNT LOOK TO GOOD TO USE THERE POWER).


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## Tree Machine (Jan 3, 2004)

*Tarps vs raking*

Tarps are what I consider one of my 'secret weapons'. I've always had a number of different sizes, all heavy duty, all gray. Made it confusing for my occasional helper.

This season, actually, it was one of my two New Year's resolutions, was to create a no-brainer system for defining which size was which size. I used to use a fat marker and mark all the corners with the dimensions of that tarp. Ink would wear off in a short time and I was right back where I started.

Realizing that only the bigger tarps need to be heavy duty, the smaller ones can be lighter. They're cheap and more expendable than the big ones, and you don't put heavy loads on them because they're too small to get much on them (disincluding rain-soaked sawdust). Here's what I've come up with:

6 x 8 at least two.... blue.... from anywhere.
12 x 16 two......orange... from U-Haul
20 x 30 two.... green 'farm duty', ... Northern Hydraulics
30 x 40 Grey heavy duty Lowes, Farm and Fleet, etc

I also have grey 8 x 10's which are hard to confuse with the big mondo 30 x 40, and is more or less dedicated to the zone right between the chipper and the back of the truck. 

One last tarp I have is a light-duty 10 x 40 (blue one side, green the other) that I use sometimes to cover bushes, or on narrow driveways.

Most of the time I use tarps, sometimes I don't. Depends on the job. I've never regretted using tarps, only regretted when I hadn't. Windy days can make them a frustrating headache. On snow-covered ground, they're a godsend as they skid quite well, and, have you ever tried to rake sticks out of snow....?.

I've gotten a lot of jobs because of the tarps. They make you stand out. Tarps are good advertising. They show to the passing community you care about low-impact care to the client's lawn, when really, you're intent is to speed your cleanup and keep your rake time down.... 

oh, you can still rake if you're so inclined. Raking material, and dragging brush across a tarp is actually easier than across lawn as you're overcoming friction by creating an artificial smooth surface. Raking sawdust is never an easy thing. If it's on a tarp, it becomes a non-event.

Last thing, it helps to pin the corners of the tarps down, especially if there's wind. I used to use fiberglass tent stakes, but they're kinda hard to find, and cost money. I used to use sticks I'd find on site, and jam them through a hole I'd created near the corner grommets. Now I've refined it to two ways, which I combine with each other. Mini biners for the corner grommets, work great to attach to chain link fence or a branch on a bush, and then the greatest revelation I've yet found..... chopsticks. You get them at Chinese market, or grocery store, Oriental section They cost ~ $2 for a hundred pair, and the'yr custo-designed for this task. You can fit one pair through a grommet, But I find splitting the pair, and using one single chopstick per grommet, just the corners, push them into the ground at an angle opposing the tarp's direction. This means pinning down one tarp costs you about two cents. They go through the chipper quite well once used, and I had a pack of 100 last me most of the Summer. -TM-


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## Koa Man (Jan 3, 2004)

TM,
You can also use them to eat your lunch in case you forgot to bring a fork or spoon.  We eat with chopsticks quite a bit in Hawaii. All oriental restaurants here will give you chopsticks unless you ask for a fork.


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## treeman82 (Jan 3, 2004)

Speaking of tarps, I had thought about using them for something other than clean-up a while back. I had pondered using a 2 or 3 layered tarp system to cover cars or other valuables which might be nearby the work area. My thought was to put 1 tarp over the car which never gets used for anything else. Then put a piece of burlap over that tarp. Then put another tarp on top of the burlap.


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## Greg (Jan 3, 2004)

I can and usually do break a plastic rake a couple of days after I buy it. The metal tines work much better than plastic in my opinion. I've used tarps and love them for nasty stuff like palm trees, but for just leaves normal trimming and removals we rake piles and come by with the wheel barrel and pick em up and make a large pile for the loader to pick up. The loader does a good job of picking up piles of leaves and on the final grab we leave it about 3 feet off the ground rake under it and then stuff it in from the top. 
---You could have done the whole removal like a complete amature, but if you leave that yard spotless they will think you are the best tree guy in the world.
Greg


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Greg _
> *
> ---You could have done the whole removal like a complete amature, but if you leave that yard spotless they will think you are the best tree guy in the world.
> Greg *





Ain't that a fact, Greg!

Back in my raking days, the cheap $5 rakes(from Wal-Mart, like KM said) worked best for me. I would hold two at once when working out stump grindings. The only problem was heavy-handed GM busting the handle in half.
But at five bucks a pop, they ain't so bad.


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## Scars2prove-it (Jan 4, 2004)

I use the $3.97 steel tine rakes from Wal Mart. They work as well as the $17.00 rakes from Home Depot. I buy ten at a time which last for two years or so. That's where I get my bar oil too.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 4, 2004)

Yeah, W-Mart rocks, thats for sure.

I heard somehere that they will give you a lifetime discount if you let them tattoo three numbers on you somewhere...


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## preach it (Jan 4, 2004)

The rake and tarp method work for me also. I use a 30" plastic rake and an 8x10' tarp. I found that raking up chips and stump grindings into a 30 gal. trash can is easier to handle. I can use a 2 wheel dolly to push it to the truck. The grindings and chips tend to be too heavy for a tarp. The handles on trash cans give you something to grab on to. But for brush the tarp is the only way to go.


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## topnotchtree (Jan 6, 2004)

Metal rakes are the only way to go. I usually bend the end of the tines to a sharper angle(close to 90 degrees). I find that helps grab debris better as I rake TOWARDS THE TRUCK.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by topnotchtree _
> *... as I rake TOWARDS THE TRUCK. *




Its amazing how many people don't do that!


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## rborist1 (Jan 6, 2004)

:Eye:


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## TREETX (Jan 6, 2004)

Nice action shot!!


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## rborist1 (Jan 6, 2004)

:Eye:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 6, 2004)

That pic was takenm yesterday, right?


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## rborist1 (Jan 6, 2004)

:Eye:


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## Lumberjack (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Its amazing how many people don't do that!
> 
> 
> ...




You don't. But then again, you aint paid to. Amazes me how few understand "contract climber."


Carl


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *You don't. But then again, you aint paid to. Amazes me how few understand "contract climber."
> 
> 
> Carl *





You missed my point.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 6, 2004)

:angel:


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## NickfromWI (Jan 6, 2004)

Violence is not the answer.

LOVE
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 6, 2004)

Didja miss my angel? 




Brian's like my little brother...


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## Stumper (Jan 7, 2004)

......and if you could reach him you'd thump him on the head wouldn't you?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 7, 2004)

I was thinking it would be a headlock/knuckle rub combo..


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 7, 2004)




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## rahtreelimbs (Jan 7, 2004)

Hey Butch,

Just think with a little surgery & silicone you could look like this:


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 7, 2004)

Ahhh, Grasshopper.

I see I have trained you well!


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## murphy4trees (Jan 8, 2004)

Back to rakes (since I just got back from two weeks in california)

We use the 30" plastic... a couple of echo PB 210E hand blowers and an echo PB 650 backpack and a stihl powerbroom... And tarps
A man hour is a man hour is a man hour.... The power broom does an amazing job of cleaning up lawns for speed and perfection.... gotta get the bigger sticks up first.... Though with the big backpack being sooooo powerful, the powerbroom may not get used on a lot of jobs, and the Power broom takes up a lot of room in the truck.... 
When moving stump chips on site, it's hard to beat the powerbroom and tarps.... by sweeping onto the tarp, dragging and dumping, the debris never gets picked up... that saves a lot of energy...
By turning the head and using a pull motion instead of a push motion, the power broom never needs to be lifted off the ground, and can be "driven" over some distance rather than carried..

At close to $600, the power broom may seem a little pricey, but I wouldn't be without one..... Great for acorns, sweet gum balls, etc. too.
making cleanup quick and easy is great for moral... The only drawback to the power broom are the fumes and dust... I use a respirator regularly...


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## Erwin (Jan 14, 2004)

Tree Machine, looking at the picture you posted earlier, I believe that we are at the same "scale of operation". I'm also a scientist. But I don't have the gut to quit it for something I enjoy much more because I have four little ones to feed at home. what truck and chipper do you have in the picture? I like the way you made your own BOX. Erwin


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