# low-impact logging



## sawnazi (May 22, 2010)

I am starting a logging business speacilizing in low impact logging with 4wheelers and small logging arches the max width going in and out of the forest is 5 feet ive got alot of people interested in this practice but im not sure how to seal the deal on it or if this is just a new fad and will die out soon i would like yor thoughts on this thanks


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## perchhauler (May 22, 2010)

I've logged with horses for years in Pa., and no its no fad thats going to fade.. Landowners who are looking at the future of their woodlot and timber like the idea, its common sense low impact logging saves alot of young growth, select cut, thinning, worst first makes sense to go low impact.. Clear cutting an area to build is better to go with big machines to make more time..


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## Dalmatian90 (May 22, 2010)

In my area (Connecticut) there are a lot of various "land trusts" as well as municipal conservation land.

I would think these would be a prime pool of potential customers. Of course many of them may be interested in the combination of a professional forester who plans the cut, combined with a low-impact logger. If you talk to them and find out if they're already using a certain forester that would probably be a good person to talk to.

Many of these are very sensitive to "looks." Back in 1991 I worked for the town cutting trails on our first bit of conservation land.

Ten years later...over which time I had nothing to do with the property other then occasionally walking or riding it for my own pleasure the town had parts logged.

And I had multiple people complaining to ME. If I was getting an earful when all I had done was work there one summer in college, I can just imagine what the town politicos were getting 

(One of our local land trusts is even sponsored by the local forest landowners association that encourages good timber and firewood practices)

And even if you don't get business with the land trusts, if you can make a good impression to their boards / leadership I'd suspect a lot of them are the types of folks who would be interested in low-impact on their own personal properties.


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## Greystoke (May 22, 2010)

You'll have to add one of these babies to your lineup if business takes off.

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## perchhauler (May 22, 2010)

As far as private land goes, I've found you'll get work when conventional loggers wont.. There are alot of landowners out there who wont sell timber til they find someone to do it low impact....


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## cantoo (May 22, 2010)

Got a buddy who sold a bunch of trees to a commercial logging company. The company had bought a bunch of bushes in the area. They started a few miles down the road from my buddy's place. They came in with a crew and a big timberjack skidder, hours later everyone of the owners backed out of the deal. Way to much damge to the trails, bush and remaining trees. I never seen the damage first hand but I did hear from a few neighbours. I did tell the guys that sometimes you do get what you pay/sell for. They all sold to this company because they were the highest priced but time is money so they move fast and cut or runover whatever is in the way. Now I'm thinking I could likely come in with my wheeler and Steiners and make some money. Of course I wouldn't pay anywhere near what the speed demons were offering.
This is the type of customer you would have to target to make the money you will need.


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## jnl502 (May 22, 2010)

me and the wife has thought about the same thing. kinda like a forest management type of deal. go in with a 4wheeler or small 4x4 tractor or one of those small struck crawlers. the price of timber these days makes me think twice. have heard it is worth more as firewood and that market down here in the south is hit or miss depending on the weather. i have no plans to start a woodlot with people calling last minute because it is about to turn cold. anyway back to logging. it would be hard to drag trees of a large size and then a way to on a trailor or truck with a side loader and get them to the mill. don't give me wrong i think it would be great to do this i mean the selective cutting but is there profit in it? this is just my thinking and if i'm wrong i would like to be set strait. 
jnl


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## slowp (May 22, 2010)

There are some loggers, who can do "low impact" with regular size machinery. The best one I've ever worked with did a thinning on some private ground. The landowner told him her desired outcome and then let him choose the trees to cut. He knew to leave the good trees but also could cut those needed to work his machinery around. He did a beautiful job. 

Not all production loggers are bad. I should think that using such a small machine would limit the size of logs you are getting out, and limit your market. But that's a West Coast thing, maybe it doesn't matter there.


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## joesawer (May 22, 2010)

Logging is a production based industry and even if land owners give you the timber the expense per ton or thousand ratio with a four wheeler is going to be very far out of your favor. 
Unless you have a niche that pays far above the going harvest rate be careful that you don't wind up with a worn out four wheeler and an empty bank account.


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## redprospector (May 23, 2010)

joesawer said:


> Logging is a production based industry and even if land owners give you the timber the expense per ton or thousand ratio with a four wheeler is going to be very far out of your favor.
> Unless you have a niche that pays far above the going harvest rate be careful that you don't wind up with a worn out four wheeler and an empty bank account.



You hit the nail on the head with this one.
I do private land all the time. I charge the land owner to remove their trees. I can do "low impact" if they're willing to pay for it. 

I was talking to our state forester yesterday about a project. We were discussing some of my concerns about the price cap they had on it. He asked me if I had considered the value of the log's into my figuring. I told him that if I did that, I'd have to charge extra. Log's aren't worth much here anymore. I used to make pretty good money selling logs. Now they're just a "value added" product. Last I checked it's about $200 a thousand delivered to the mill, and it's close to 100 miles to that mill.

Andy


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## Gologit (May 23, 2010)

joesawer said:


> Logging is a production based industry and even if land owners give you the timber the expense per ton or thousand ratio with a four wheeler is going to be very far out of your favor.
> Unless you have a niche that pays far above the going harvest rate be careful that you don't wind up with a worn out four wheeler and an empty bank account.



Well said. I've been pecking away at a "low impact" job for a couple of years but I wouldn't call it logging. More like land clearing. The property owner bought eighty acres of second growth and is slowly turning it into a park. They do a little every year and they have a clear vision of how they want things to look and how they want things done. They used a consulting forester who also has a good knowledge of logging and land remediation. That really helps me do the job they want done.

If the OP wants to try low impact work he'd do well to consider charging by the job and not depend on the volume of timber to make any money. If you do a good job the word will spread fast...same with a bad job. Low impact is a popular concept out here. The land owners on both sides of where I'm working have watched the process and now they're having the same thing done to their property. I hooked them up with a couple of reputable guys (I'm semi-retired, remember?) and they're pleased with the results.

To the OP I'd say just be very clear as to what the property owner wants. Get it in writing if you can. Low impact will still leave some visual changes and that can't be helped. Even low impact work might be considered ugly by an uninformed person. Make sure the property owner understands that before you start.


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## slowp (May 23, 2010)

Gologit said:


> To the OP I'd say just be very clear as to what the property owner wants. Get it in writing if you can. Low impact will still leave some visual changes and that can't be helped. Even low impact work might be considered ugly by an uninformed person. Make sure the property owner understands that before you start.



If they are totally new to the woods, it helps to show them logged areas you or somebody else has done. People just don't understand that logging, even careful logging, just doesn't look pretty right away. They do not understand slash, fresh stumps and smashed brush. They do not understand that you can't fall a tree just anywhere. We're lucky here. It only takes a year for nature to cover it up and make everything green again. 

If they want 95% low impact, I'd suggest going helicopter.


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## Gologit (May 23, 2010)

slowp said:


> If they want 95% low impact, I'd suggest going helicopter.



LOL...I suggested that to them (they have the bucks) but when I told them what it would cost they wisely decided to spend the money on a new Kubota with a Farmi winch setup instead. That thing is a BLAST to run, especially when you're used to skidding with a 6. Kinda like driving a kiddy car but very smooth and quiet. Doesn't tear up the ground like a Cat, either.


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## fmaglin (May 23, 2010)

slowp said:


> There are some loggers, who can do "low impact" with regular size machinery. The best one I've ever worked with did a thinning on some private ground. The landowner told him her desired outcome and then let him choose the trees to cut. He knew to leave the good trees but also could cut those needed to work his machinery around. He did a beautiful job.
> 
> Not all production loggers are bad. I should think that using such a small machine would limit the size of logs you are getting out, and limit your market. But that's a West Coast thing, maybe it doesn't matter there.


Well said Slowp. Here in the midwest you can hire amish folks that will skid your logs out with horses, but you need to do your math before you agree to hire them. Most of them would work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot and on the average, they will only be able to skid out about 6000 board foot in a day. If the trees were average size, you can do all right; however, smaller logs that would sell as blocking would be better left for firewood, and really large trees would slow things down to less than 6000 board foot/day. Someone that would carefully use a skidder would make the bottom line a lot more profitable. Don't ask me how I know.


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## floyd (May 23, 2010)

I did low impact logging for years. Horselogging. 

Niche market. I never tried to compete with machines.


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## KeyStep (May 23, 2010)

I started with the idea of doing only low-impact logging with an ATV for myself and that got me to build a metal skidding sled. It works well when you want to get a sawlog out from a romote location but overall for pulp or firewood it is not a reality and not worth the time. For the isolated low volume of just a full cords or for sawlogs for a landowner it ok but not really anything you can consider for a business

I soon moved on to a Farmi-winch on a 45HP tractor and then added a metavic log loader with an articulated trailer that turn on dime. I can winch logs from trails up to 165 ft and also have a 85 ft extension so overall my reach is nearly 250ft Everything is low-impact and you really can't tell the woodlot has been logged in one to two years following a harvest. Overall, this is not competitive will high volume logging but I do over a 300 full cords of wood a year. I also purchased my own truck and trailer for hauling but I would still say I keep everything small so I can keep the risks low. The same equipment can be used around the sawmill and other parts of the farm as well. I also bought everything used and over the past few years have been able to pick up some good equipment.


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## perchhauler (May 23, 2010)

Its not rocket science, just simple common sense, low Impact logging you're not going to move wood as fast as with a big machine so its going to cost more due to production time, however you can move just as much wood just slower... A team of horses are a better bet than some small machines as they'll move more wood than say a four wheeler, you just have to buck bigger trees log length to get em out.. I agree I've know some conventional loggers with big skidders who are very careful, but at best you have to put a road through for that skidder, and you save alot of young growth doing it with horses, not all machine loggers rip and tear, but with a large skidder you cant avoid taking more young growth with you.. I know alot of horse loggers who have made a good living at it for years, do a good job and it speaks for itself..


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## Dalmatian90 (May 23, 2010)

> Well said Slowp. Here in the midwest you can hire amish folks that will skid your logs out with horses, but you need to do your math before you agree to hire them. Most of them would work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot and on the average, they will only be able to skid out about 6000 board foot in a day. If the trees were average size, you can do all right; however, smaller logs that would sell as blocking would be better left for firewood, and really large trees would slow things down to less than 6000 board foot/day.



I'd just like to pick on that for a moment, because maybe I don't understand something...or there can be different circumstances.

"...work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot"

1) I'm assuming a typo -- it's actually 9-1/2 to 10 cents per board foot...I can't see the Amish working for $6/ day. 

2) Is that the actual rate (you pay them a dime for every board foot scaled at the landing (I presume)), or is that they usually charge $600/day regardless of how much they bring out, and usually that works back to be 10 cents per board foot?

If it is an daily rate regardless of production, I can see it always being a concern.

If I'm a logging contractor I've budgeted in for my truck and driver time to be supplied each day with X loads the horses can't make that rate, I can see me losing money having the truck sitting waiting.

But if I'm the landowner and I'm just having the logs brought to a landing, and I'm only calling a truck to transport when there is a load ready for the mill...what's the problem as long as I pay by production and not daily?


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## slowp (May 23, 2010)

I'm not even sure what the definition of low impact is. I consider some skyline thinnings to be low impact, when compared to carving trails in steep ground for a cat. 

I guess it is up to the landowner to figure out their definition. Do they just care how it will look when done? Do they want future entries? 

My friends also got their road system improved.


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## fmaglin (May 23, 2010)

Dalmatian90 said:


> I'd just like to pick on that for a moment, because maybe I don't understand something...or there can be different circumstances.
> 
> "...work for .095 to .10 cents per board foot"
> 
> ...


Yup, it's 9-1/2 cents to 10 cents per board foot. Some will charge $400 per day working by the day, but don't think their day hours are the same as yours. They have to hire a driver with a stock trailer to bring them on the job and pick them up Though their day may start at 7:00AM they may not arrive at the site until 8:30 depending on how far the job is. Usually they roll up at 4:00PM so they are ready when the driver arrives to bring them home. It's best to hire them by the board foot for these reasons.

As far as the landowner, let me quote you some figures from a recent job. I cut and scaled 12000BF of Ash that was mostly small timber. By this I mean there were very few logs that could be marketed for grade lumber.The bigger trees would yield one log about 14" on the small end and there were many logs that were only 12". The land owner agreed to pay 10 cents a bd ft to skid the logs with a team to a landing. The trees being small, ended up being sold to a mill that only bought small trees for blocking. They brought a low price which included them being trucked to the mill. In this case, the owner wanted to sell the small trees due to some tree diseases that are destroying Ash trees, and I can't blame him for doing so. The trees could have all been skid in a day using a skidder at a cost to him of 6 cents a bd ft which in this case would have netted him an additional $480. In some cases I can see using horses to get the job done, and I have personally done so myself where terrain wasn't feasible to use a skidder; however, in my opinion, I just don't feel that for the above described job it was the best choice.


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## Dalmatian90 (May 24, 2010)

Thanks fmaglin. That gave me a much better picture.

To figure out what that $480 was relative too, I looked up the Ohio timber report that has Ash blocks @ $155/mbf, and made a guess trucking cost $400.

So he would've netted around $260 w/Amish, or $730 w/Skidder.

Guess it partly depends on how you view the glass...if $480 isn't that much and gives you a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that horses were used, or if you view it as 2/3rds of your profit gone.


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## ShoerFast (May 24, 2010)

Just $0.02 cents worth....

Not sure what you call it in WsSconnie, but back home (Minnesota) if someone were really interested in low-impact, they just moved everything they could after freeze-up, and before the snow was too deep. 

Spring offered a few weeks of less snow before the frost left the ground also. 

Lot of people did not get to excited about cutting ruts in some areas. There only a problem in lower/wetter areas, and those areas just seem to fill themselves back in eventually, or are not that big of a problem. 

Give it a try, stacking a few dimes is a good thing what ever your doing, just me, but I would stay flexible till I knew how well it would take off.


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## redprospector (May 24, 2010)

slowp said:


> I'm not even sure what the definition of low impact is. I consider some skyline thinnings to be low impact, when compared to carving trails in steep ground for a cat.
> 
> I guess it is up to the landowner to figure out their definition. Do they just care how it will look when done? Do they want future entries?
> 
> My friends also got their road system improved.



I think you're right. The land owner has to figure out their own definition of "low impact".
A lot of the jobs I do, the land owner's want it to look like a city park with stumps when I leave. Others just want the job done without tearing up leave trees, and too many ruts. It's hard to tell the difference between the two after 2 or 3 years. I guess it all depends on how much money they have.

Andy


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## sawnazi (May 25, 2010)

Right now i am charging a bid job of 2 guys at 40/hour per person and i give the land owner .2 cents per bf for the usable market timber that we harvest off the property. The tops are chipped back onto the floor to turn into mulch so there are no brush piles left in the woods. some of the land owners have the tops chipped on to a pile too make walking trails.


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## joesawer (May 25, 2010)

sawnazi said:


> Right now i am charging a bid job of 2 guys at 40/hour per person and i give the land owner .2 cents per bf for the usable market timber that we harvest off the property. The tops are chipped back onto the floor to turn into mulch so there are no brush piles left in the woods. some of the land owners have the tops chipped on to a pile too make walking trails.



How much are you getting per hour for your 4 wheeler?
For their logging capacity 4 wheelers are very expensive. Both initially and parts. And logging will wear and break parts fast!


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## sawnazi (May 26, 2010)

Its not really that tough on the equipment the logs most of the time are suspended and we do have surge brakes on the arches for going down hills we donot have that steep of slopes around here it is mostly flat with some little ridges the price of the wheelers are included in the price of persons. Ive been doing this for about a year now part time with my buddies and my wheelers which are honda 350's and friends wheeler which is a suzuki 300 still run great and have plenty of power to move logs 30" in diamiter and 10' long. for the long sticks we use two arches.


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## D&B Mack (May 26, 2010)

I do low impact as well here in PA. There is a niche for it, but I don't think it is going to die out, especially with the "being green" surge coming. (As a note, a group of us do this on the side, not full time) Most of what we do is winched from an open access point, occasionally we will pull through the woods with a small tractor. However, for us on the side it is profitable, but I don't think we could do it full time for a profit.


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## 2dogs (May 27, 2010)

I work for a horse logging outfit here and I can say that horses "can" be lower impact than some mechanised logging but not always. Anytime you are skidding logs there is impact. Lifting one end of the logs off the ground with an arch still means you are dragging them through the woods. Using a balancing arch or two arches so the log is completely off the ground greatly reduces the impact. Just because you are using a quad doesn't mean much, you have to make more trips than larger machinery. If the width of your machinery is a factor in the job only the will you have a real advantage. 

Horses and quads a very slow and this can only be appreciated after the job is through. If I were you I would take only very small jobs until you learn how fast you will be working. Also when anything breaks you are out of business until it is fixed. Good luck.


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## John Ellison (May 27, 2010)

There is a lot of good points here. Low impact might mean different things to different people. Discuss everything you will and will not do with the landowner before hand.

It matters not what is used to log it if a poor felling job is done. A helicopter would'nt make it look good.


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## joesawer (May 29, 2010)

sawnazi said:


> Its not really that tough on the equipment the logs most of the time are suspended and we do have surge brakes on the arches for going down hills we donot have that steep of slopes around here it is mostly flat with some little ridges the price of the wheelers are included in the price of persons. Ive been doing this for about a year now part time with my buddies and my wheelers which are honda 350's and friends wheeler which is a suzuki 300 still run great and have plenty of power to move logs 30" in diamiter and 10' long. for the long sticks we use two arches.






I don't care how you slice it- The $ per ton moved ratio is not very favorable. What you are doing sounds more like a clean up/yard service than logging.


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 23, 2010)

Low impact logging pays, only under special circumstances. That is how close you are to the timber and how close you are to the market, and what you're getting for the product.
I'm salvaging standing dead with an ATV and trailer. The landing is 5 minutes from where I live and delivering firewood blocks @ 200/crd. This takes 4-6 hrs per cord. I can live doing this full time as I am. The wood sporaticly exits on the lower benches of Spruce mountain and my furthest customer is 10 miles away and I may have the whole town as they like my wood product and how I produce it.

My production costs are 7$/crd if I don't include the cost of the truck, ATV and saws, but I had all these required recreation items already.

I'm not getting rich, but it beats working 7am- 5pm in a job you hate for the same money.

Could I make more if I went bigger? Probably, but it's better to stay small and keep it all. You can't put a price on freedom.

John


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## dancan (Jun 24, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Low impact logging pays, only under special circumstances....
> 
> They like my wood product and how I produce it....
> 
> ...




Those are some proud words to live by .
Well said John .


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## Gypo Logger (Jun 24, 2010)

dancan said:


> Those are some proud words to live by .
> Well said John .



Thanks Duncan, would I have driven myself for myself as hard as I'm willing to drive myself for others, I might have gotten ahead.
It's a rush out here and a gold rush for some, but I still think the trees are green gold. I so love trees, especially when their still on the stump. When they grew those, they grew alot of them.
Gypo


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## ithica (Jul 6, 2010)

*Check this out*

http://www.tremzac.com


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## dozerman37 (Jul 16, 2010)

*low impact*

ive done some low impact logging, its really a great thing to save all of the little saplings that will grow big one day and make it down the road. but when im working full time with our timberjack and caterpillar cable skidders, lots gets squished and unsaved but we have bills to pay and mouths to feed. two thumbs up for sustainable forestry.


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## Gypo Logger (Jul 17, 2010)

dozerman37 said:


> ive done some low impact logging, its really a great thing to save all of the little saplings that will grow big one day and make it down the road. but when im working full time with our timberjack and caterpillar cable skidders, lots gets squished and unsaved but we have bills to pay and mouths to feed. two thumbs up for sustainable forestry.


 The good side to ground disturbance with the bigger equipment is that the scarification is good seedlings and other understory species.
Soil compaction around roots of residual trees is not so good though.
John


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## PB (Jul 19, 2010)

There is a low-impact logging workshop every year at the MOFGA fair grounds in Maine. Good food, people and lots of information. Look past all the hippie stuff and there are a lot of do-it yourself types that go there. Last year they had demonstrations with horses, farm tractor logging, Jonsered Iron Horse, and several others. This low-impact logging idea is taking off big here in Maine for small land owners. 

http://www.mofga.org/Default.aspx?tabid=297

Here is some more info:

http://www.swoam.org/


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