# Humboldt vs. Conventional



## crackajeff

Does anyone know why a the conventional face cut method is the most common in the East and the humboldt is very rarely seen? The only thing I can think of is maybe trying to keep stump sprouts on a flat growing surface, but that doesn't seem like much of a reason to me. Any ideas?


----------



## Dayto

Humbdolt , gives more direction ... and will leave a flush butt . PNW mills need that.


----------



## joesawer

The biggest reason, beside getting the butt on the ground quicker, I can think of is that on bigger trees and on steep ground it is a great advantage if your face cut falls out on its own instead of having to wrestle it out. Also it keeps you from having to cut the butt square after it has been cut down saving a lot of cutting at the end of the day.


----------



## slowp

Dayto said:


> Humbdolt , gives more direction ... and will leave a flush butt . PNW mills need that.





joesawer said:


> The biggest reason, beside getting the butt on the ground quicker, I can think of is that on bigger trees and on steep ground it is a great advantage if your face cut falls out on its own instead of having to wrestle it out. Also it keeps you from having to cut the butt square after it has been cut down saving a lot of cutting at the end of the day.



Ummmm, it doesn't make the butt square enough. I still find a cookie at each tree. But not a very thick one.


----------



## chevytaHOE5674

Our mills don't require square butts as most of the notch will come off in the slabs when sawing at the mill. So a conventional notch gets you a couple more inches of butt log off the stump.


----------



## GASoline71

Humboldt's are cooler... :rockn:

Gary


----------



## madhatte

Humbolts are also easier to do, and are more forgiving regarding dutchmen and other such errors. 

Conventional faces are easier to teach, so it's a good method for learning, but much harder to match corners up. Also, when cutting rotten, burning, or otherwise compromised wood, cutting the angle before the gunning cut can sometimes save a pinched bar. That's one I would much rather have learned from somebody else than on my own, on a fire. I ended up pulling it through on the dawgs, no face, no holding wood, and just watching the top when it tipped and skedaddling to safety. It was pretty hairy there for a few moments. 

Open-face notches really don't have much place in my world, except for when I have to bore the face of something small with a heavy lean and I want to get a wedge in back. In that case the bigger opennig can be a help.


----------



## Jacob J.

In addition to the above, :agree2:

Conventional cuts are good on flat ground when you're under the gun to make lower stumps (in a commercial scenario.) 

I am/was a Humboldt guy for years because it was the West Coast thing to do. I started working for a logger up on the Santiam and the ground was fairly flat and the wood was real good. He royally chewed me out the first day for wasting wood on flat ground with the Humboldt face. I tried telling him it was all the same but he wouldn't listen. 

That being said, both have their place and the main reason I see more the of the conventional being used back East is a cultural thing. When I was with one of the big helicopter outfits, we sent guys back East and they had good luck with the Humboldt in eastern hardwoods for the most part. 

The last few jobs I worked on, we didn't have to flush the butts, just trim the whiskers off. The whiskers would fool the laser sensors on the processors. In the smaller timber, sometimes we'd stay on the stump while it started to go and get the holding wood cut up real tight so's it'd break off clean.


----------



## RandyMac

The old Orygun cut has it's place, it's great when you need to cut low on a tree with butt swell, swollen butt.... I think I should stop there.


----------



## 371groundie

the humbolt tends to push the tree away from you. a very good thing on steep ground when its hard to make a get away. 

the conventional will allow the tree to jump the stump backwards. not a big deal if youre terrain allows you to make a good escape. 

open face keeps the hinge intact all the way down, so the tree doesnt jump at all. however it will somtimes break a slab off the log if not done correctly. not a big deal in pulpwood, but it can break you in high value wood. 

i know how to do them all, i use them all depending on the situation. i use the open face the most.


----------



## RandyMac

371groundie said:


> the humbolt tends to push the tree away from you. a very good thing on steep ground when its hard to make a get away.
> *
> the conventional will allow the tree to jump the stump backwards. not a big deal if youre terrain allows you to make a good escape. *
> open face keeps the hinge intact all the way down, so the tree doesnt jump at all. however it will somtimes break a slab off the log if not done correctly. not a big deal in pulpwood, but it can break you in high value wood.
> 
> i know how to do them all, i use them all depending on the situation. i use the open face the most.



Having a tree go over backwards is no big deal? Stay away from me.


----------



## bitzer

Humbodlts save out more wood in steep terrain by getting the butt down first. They are also easier to swing and to get the butt to kick off one side or the other. Conventionals are used on flat land hardwoods to cut as tight to ground as possible although I'd say that its a toss up. I think it is also a cultural thing, just like short bars. Some of us east and (mid) coasters are trying to kill those myths though. Humboldts are more fun to me, but I often end up putting a little scarf or snipe in em to keep the face from closing to early or to get them jumping. All the faces have their time and place. Just more tools in the bag and when to use them.


----------



## hammerlogging

RandyMac said:


> Having a tree go over backwards is no big deal? Stay away from me.



just the butt coming back is what he's talking about


----------



## joesawer

I am not convinced the humbolt keeps the the tree from jumping the stump any better than any other face cut.
The only reason any tree comes behind the stump is because something pushes it there. I am not sold on stump shot either.


----------



## joesawer

slowp said:


> Ummmm, it doesn't make the butt square enough. I still find a cookie at each tree. But not a very thick one.





Ummmm they are not matching their cuts good enough! Lol


----------



## 380LGR

I have no use for the hembolt here only on very steep ground when I dont care where the trees going. The conventional or open face is much more safer and the tree only goes where I want it to.


----------



## wheelman

What does a squid have to do with cutting trees?


----------



## forestryworks

380LGR said:


> *The conventional or open face is much more safer* and the tree only goes where I want it to.



:monkey:


----------



## joesawer

380LGR said:


> I have no use for the hembolt here only on very steep ground when I dont care where the trees going. The conventional or open face is much more safer and the tree only goes where I want it to.



??????


----------



## 380LGR

Why cant you guys spit out what you want to say... Your not going to hurt my feelings....


----------



## joesawer

I Do Not Understand What You Are Saying.


----------



## Jacob J.

joesawer said:


> The only reason any tree comes behind the stump is because something pushes it there. I am not sold on stump shot either.



I think stump shot was more prevalent back in the days when men were cutting the biggest timber. I've worked some second growth units that had virgin stumps in it still in good shape, and a lot of those old-time face cuts look awfully shallow and narrow to me...


----------



## 2dogs

I don't worry about stump shot much at all either. I go for 2" most times just because that is what I learned.


----------



## Gologit

380LGR said:


> Why cant you guys spit out what you want to say... Your not going to hurt my feelings....



Okay...you're wrong. Glad we didn't hurt your feelings.


----------



## GASoline71

LMAO... What is a Hembolt? 

Must be for fallin' Hemlocks...

Gary


----------



## hammerlogging

380LGR said:


> Why cant you guys spit out what you want to say... Your not going to hurt my feelings....



the conventional is not the same as the open face.

I use the humboldt when I need a super wide hinge to get a heavy leaning tree to come around sidehill, or when I need the butt to hit first, or if I just feel like it. You'll have less chance of fiber pull with an open faceand it does not get into merchantable wood.

I have little interest in or appreciation for the conventional.


----------



## 2dogs

hammerlogging said:


> I have little interest in or appreciation for the conventional.



I agree though last week I took down two big rotten d-firs. One was 5' at the cut, the other was 5'9". I was using the 090 with a 4' bar. I used a conventional face because the saw was so bloody heavy I could not swing it into the cut. If the footing was better then maybe I would have succeeded but every movement caused me to slip down from the base of the tree. I started each cut with the 460 and the switched to the 090. I paid alot of money for that big nasty, noisy vibrating saw so I wanted to use it on some big wood.


----------



## Greystoke

joesawer said:


> Ummmm they are not matching their cuts good enough! Lol



Me thinks so too!!!

Of course they probably have an OSHA guy telling them to make the ####ing back cut two inches higher than the face:bang: which has it's place in my bag o tricks...but rarely. I have argued that with many a bullbuck and safety guy :deadhorse:


----------



## slowp

I'll take some pictures of the stumpage if any jobs ever get going.


----------



## Terry L

Humboldt and conventional both have their place. An advantage with the conventional is that the stump can be made lower. This will result in a stump that rots quicker. We are thinning stands of fir that are about 20 years old with our cut to length system. The low stumps of fir and hardwoods are mostly rotten, but the higher stumps are frequently quite sound, and in some circumstances, make it more difficult to move the machine through the stand. Usually the high stumps were cut using the humboldt, and the lower stumps were cut using the conventional. Yes, recutting the butt of the tree takes some extra cutting, if the mill requires it, but it can be worth it.


----------



## tramp bushler

GASoline71 said:


> LMAO... What is a Hembolt?
> 
> Must be for fallin' Hemlocks...
> 
> Gary


.

. Thanks for the laugh .. You and GoLogit ... I needed that 
.
.Joe , we gotta have a talk about stump shot .... If youre fallin timber thru timber [ select cut , or opening up your strip ] you don,t want the tree to come zooming past u . good way to get dead . 2 -4 " of stump shot will keep the butt of the tree from coming backwards it the tree hangs up on the way down ... Humbolt faces will also help in this situation ... Saginaw faces are sometimes faster to put in and will often times give u a couple bushel a day bump in your scale . ... On snags that tend to spklit vertically the Sag face is by far the safest .......


----------



## 2dogs

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> . Thanks for the laugh .. You and GoLogit ... I needed that
> .
> .Joe , we gotta have a talk about stump shot .... If youre fallin timber thru timber [ select cut , or opening up your strip ] you don,t want the tree to come zooming past u . good way to get dead . 2 -4 " of stump shot will keep the butt of the tree from coming backwards it the tree hangs up on the way down ... Humbolt faces will also help in this situation ... Saginaw faces are sometimes faster to put in and will often times give u a couple bushel a day bump in your scale . ... On snags that tend to spklit vertically the Sag face is by far the safest .......



Saginaw face? Could you explain please? The state of Michigan is so fouled up these days I can only emagine the Saginaw face means you have to pay tax on each one. Or maybe there are a bunch of college students yelling at you at each tree.


----------



## slowp

2dogs said:


> Saginaw face? Could you explain please? The state of Michigan is so fouled up these days I can only emagine the Saginaw face means you have to pay tax on each one. Or maybe there are a bunch of college students yelling at you at each tree.



I believe the college students would be more inclined to yell at the Humboldt.
But maybe not if they are "buying locally." Then they might be too mellow to raise a ruckus.


----------



## ross_scott

Over here in New Zealand the Humboldt is used on steep terrain as the conventional notch will cause the tree to bounce away from the stump and land further down hill where as the humboldt allows the tree to land on the ground without the extra down hill jump also with using skidders the other advantage is the stems will ride up and over the stump due to the angled cut being on the stump and not catch during an uphill drag when a skidder is on the crest of a hill resulting in less risk of skidder being pulled backwards down the hill or stems over ending during the drag if they catch on a stump.


----------



## tramp bushler

.. A Saginaw face is a standard old top face as opposed to a Humbolt face .. Perhaps just what some locals where I cut called a conventional face . Saginaw puts it from back east tho and u know what that means .....

.
.Ross , I see u have a 6.5x55 . What load do u shoot in it ??? I,m considering a CZ 550 American in 6.5x55 for a general purpose Interior / wolf / fur rifle ..
.
Back when we had pulp mills in Southeast . if I was cutting USFS ground and the butt log was going to be a pulp log I would throw in a Sag face to save time if there was a root or stump swell in the way of a humbolt . I,ve done it too when I knew the 6-8" taller stump would bust a tree I had to fall onto that stump ... .. The less wood u have to saw thru , the faster that tree can hit the ground ...


----------



## John Ellison

tramp bushler said:


> .
> ... On snags that tend to spklit vertically the Sag face is by far the safest .......



You are sure right about that tramp b.. Especially on those big S.E. red cedar snags that are full of shake. If it is big enough that you have to get in front of the face you are right in the bight. The bottom diagonal cut of a Humb. would be just like a chute for the slabs, right onto you.


----------



## ross_scott

tramp bushler said:


> .. A Saginaw face is a standard old top face as opposed to a Humbolt face .. Perhaps just what some locals where I cut called a conventional face . Saginaw puts it from back east tho and u know what that means .....
> 
> .
> *.Ross , I see u have a 6.5x55 . What load do u shoot in it ??? I,m considering a CZ 550 American in 6.5x55 for a general purpose Interior / wolf / fur rifle .*.
> .
> Back when we had pulp mills in Southeast . if I was cutting USFS ground and the butt log was going to be a pulp log I would throw in a Sag face to save time if there was a root or stump swell in the way of a humbolt . I,ve done it too when I knew the 6-8" taller stump would bust a tree I had to fall onto that stump ... .. The less wood u have to saw thru , the faster that tree can hit the ground ...



I reload my own ammo for it. It is an old Carl Gustaf M96 Sporter. following bullet weights I load and are the most accurate out of my rifle and they are hunting rounds.
155gr lapua Round nose Over H4350(2460FPS) 0.5" @ 100 meters
85gr Sierra Hollow point over Varget(3300FPS) 0.420" @100 meters
120gr Nosler Ballistic tip over Varget(2700FPS) 0.646" @100 meters


----------



## joesawer

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> . Thanks for the laugh .. You and GoLogit ... I needed that
> .
> .Joe , we gotta have a talk about stump shot .... If youre fallin timber thru timber [ select cut , or opening up your strip ] you don,t want the tree to come zooming past u . good way to get dead . 2 -4 " of stump shot will keep the butt of the tree from coming backwards it the tree hangs up on the way down ... Humbolt faces will also help in this situation ... Saginaw faces are sometimes faster to put in and will often times give u a couple bushel a day bump in your scale . ... On snags that tend to spklit vertically the Sag face is by far the safest .......





I agree with you completely. I have not cut the big snags that are like you are talking about just a lot of bug eaten mush bags that you hope have a bone in the middle.
Maybe not completely, a ramp on the stump or a ramp on the butt. Which one is going to jump the stump easier? 
I don't care to trust my life with either as often it bounces over the stump or slides by the side of it.
What bothers me is the people who say that you have to put stump shot on every tree. The only trees I have ever had come back behind the stump got pushed there by bent wood acting like a spring or gravity. I reserve the right to set the hinge up how and I want it for that particular tree. I don't think some body who is sitting in a office some distance and time away can better judge what is needed.
I was falling trees as a contractor for the FS on the Day fire. The only ones that they had me fall where the ones they did not want to mess with. They where mostly big dead rotten pines that had a problem that made them decide not to mess with it.
I caught some serious flack for not using enough or any stump shot. Well excuse me, but if it is to difficult for you to fall, you are not qualified to tell me how to do it.


----------



## Gologit

joesawer said:


> I caught some serious flack for not using enough or any stump shot. Well excuse me, but if it is to difficult for you to fall, you are not qualified to tell me how to do it.



Well said.


----------



## Greystoke

joesawer said:


> I agree with you completely. I have not cut the big snags that are like you are talking about just a lot of bug eaten mush bags that you hope have a bone in the middle.
> Maybe not completely, a ramp on the stump or a ramp on the butt. Which one is going to jump the stump easier?
> I don't care to trust my life with either as often it bounces over the stump or slides by the side of it.
> What bothers me is the people who say that you have to put stump shot on every tree. The only trees I have ever had come back behind the stump got pushed there by bent wood acting like a spring or gravity. I reserve the right to set the hinge up how and I want it for that particular tree. I don't think some body who is sitting in a office some distance and time away can better judge what is needed.
> I was falling trees as a contractor for the FS on the Day fire. The only ones that they had me fall where the ones they did not want to mess with. They where mostly big dead rotten pines that had a problem that made them decide not to mess with it.
> I caught some serious flack for not using enough or any stump shot. Well excuse me, but if it is to difficult for you to fall, you are not qualified to tell me how to do it.



Good post


----------



## tramp bushler

*stumpy jump shot !!!*

. It,s good to have your back cut come in under your kerf dutchman .. . Less chance of some stump pull grabbing your chain and taking your saw for a free death ride down a mountain ...
.
. But I try to keep a couple inches up on the holding wood side ........... I,ve had a few trees sit on me , my bar when I matched up my cuts with a fast cutting saw ..


----------



## joesawer

tramp bushler said:


> . It,s good to have your back cut come in under your kerf dutchman .. . Less chance of some stump pull grabbing your chain and taking your saw for a free death ride down a mountain ...
> .
> . But I try to keep a couple inches up on the holding wood side ........... I,ve had a few trees sit on me , my bar when I matched up my cuts with a fast cutting saw ..





The very first brand new saw I ever bought took that free death ride when it only had a few hours on it.
That made me a very sad and broke young man. But it got me started on a good collection of saw parts.


----------



## Rounder

GASoline71 said:


> Humboldt's are cooler... :rockn:
> 
> Gary



lol, yeah what he said. It's also a little easier for the hookers to get out of a jam when the skyline don't have much lift if they got a little slope on the stump.


----------



## FSburt

Hi Joe not to but in on the conversation just wanted to pass on that there is some work being done to try and change the requirements for falling bosses on incidents to be saw certified. As for the stump shot stuff on Govt fire's it is something that is required because of the OSHA regs that are used.


----------



## joesawer

FSburt said:


> Hi Joe not to but in on the conversation just wanted to pass on that there is some work being done to try and change the requirements for falling bosses on incidents to be saw certified. As for the stump shot stuff on Govt fire's it is something that is required because of the OSHA regs that are used.



Your not butting in. Any useful and meaningful contributions are welcome as far as I am concerned. 
Heck I butted in on somebody's thread!
OSHA regs are one of the things that grip me the most as being a case of regs written and enforced by people who are not often qualified to do what they are attempting to regulate.
Fortunately every OSHA reg that I can remember reading has an escape clause that says in effect it can be altered or modified if it can be demonstrated that it is safer to do so.
Well stump shot makes the initial forward movement harder to start. So if you are driving wedges in a dead tree the easier it moves the safer it is. If there is not a need for stump shot it is often safer to have the tree start moving easier.
If you are not even aware of the dynamics of stump shot please do not try to enforce it as a catch all on me!


----------



## bullbuck

joesawer said:


> I agree with you completely. I have not cut the big snags that are like you are talking about just a lot of bug eaten mush bags that you hope have a bone in the middle.
> Maybe not completely, a ramp on the stump or a ramp on the butt. Which one is going to jump the stump easier?
> I don't care to trust my life with either as often it bounces over the stump or slides by the side of it.
> What bothers me is the people who say that you have to put stump shot on every tree. The only trees I have ever had come back behind the stump got pushed there by bent wood acting like a spring or gravity. I reserve the right to set the hinge up how and I want it for that particular tree. I don't think some body who is sitting in a office some distance and time away can better judge what is needed.
> I was falling trees as a contractor for the FS on the Day fire. The only ones that they had me fall where the ones they did not want to mess with. They where mostly big dead rotten pines that had a problem that made them decide not to mess with it.
> I caught some serious flack for not using enough or any stump shot. Well excuse me, but if it is to difficult for you to fall, you are not qualified to tell me how to do it.


:agree2:


----------



## Woodaddict

For those of you that say you don't use the humboldt or it's unneeded or not safe need to check out Buckin Billy Ray Smith on YouTube, he controls those trees like a puppeteer!


----------



## Woodaddict

Double tap.


----------



## bitzer

Billy Ray huh ? Oh boy.


----------



## madhatte

I like Buckin'. He's a good cutter and an entertaining YouTuber. He's humble and doesn't give terrible advice. I would like to see him get more religious about PPE, because lots of folks do take his word as gospel, but other than that I don't have any big complaints with him. Also I really like that '69 Mercury crew cab truck he's got. That is a rare and cool rig.


----------



## Woodaddict

I tried to look that truck up, I can't find anything about it.


----------



## slowp

I would find it hard to learn from youtube if I did not know the faller doing the talking. I've been around fallers in real life and there are some you can trust and others that you want to be a good distance away from. The latter might talk the talk, but they do not have the control /skills of the other folks. 

A faller that was my neighbor had a very good reputation and the skills but still the tractor beam of the large windows of my house almost brought the tree through them. He had the experience to realize what was happening and powered the saw through enough (while the alder was trying to barberchair) so the window and house was merely brushed a little bit. Oh, and he was using a conventional face on the alders as they were not going to be anything other than firewood. Had he hit the window, it would have been interesting because my insurance agent was of the same falling skill level and would understand exactly. Maybe we should have offset the pulling of the house with a brand new pickup parked where the tree was supposed to go. 

Wish he had a youtube channel but he shy and doesn't use a lot of jargon. He will tell you if you ask how, "I'm gonna put er down over there." Then he does, usually.


----------



## madhatte

Woodaddict said:


> I tried to look that truck up, I can't find anything about it.



Behold



slowp said:


> Maybe we should have offset the pulling of the house with a brand new pickup parked where the tree was supposed to go.



That would work for sure.


----------



## john-ford-t

I have to say, that I have only used the conventional undercut; and, it has served me well here in the northern end of the pacific northwest; even in standing dead Douglas Fir (up to 60 inches diameter) cut for firewood; on all types of ground and have never had any complaints. I guess it comes down to what you are taught and what your'e comfortable with; (and what the regulations require). I admit that I have had to add splint cuts (90 degrees to the horizontal cut of the notch) and a plunge cut in the center of the notch on some of the larger trees; however, if one takes care to construct a correctly formed undercut regardless of the type; and, makes sure to place the back cut the correct amount above the horizontal cut of the notch; and, leaves 1/10th of the diameter as a hinge; then, the tree always falls where you intended it to go.
( as long as you aim the positioning of the horizontal cut correctly) Also I was taught that the mark of a professional faller was that he/or she always had a large amount of
wedges with them and used them in the back cut. I have had three sets of double wedges (with sawdust in between the wedges ) in the back cut of a 65 inch diameter dead Fir I was felling for firewood and still had wedges left over. ( I know; I know; I can hear y'all hollering... wedges... huh... don't need them....) Oh; and that 65 inch diameter tree was on really difficult ground; and went down quite nicely I might add... though I have to admit it did end up landing about ten feet down slope of the front of the stump. I think what I am trying to say here is that you use the tools and experience you have; to assess the situation for each tree; and safely get the tree on the ground in a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## Westboastfaller

john-ford-t said:


> I have to say, that I have only used the conventional undercut; and, it has served me well here in the northern end of the pacific northwest; even in standing dead Douglas Fir (up to 60 inches diameter) cut for firewood; on all types of ground and have never had any complaints. I guess it comes down to what you are taught and what your'e comfortable with; (and what the regulations require). I admit that I have had to add splint cuts (90 degrees to the horizontal cut of the notch) and a plunge cut in the center of the notch on some of the larger trees; however, if one takes care to construct a correctly formed undercut regardless of the type; and, makes sure to place the back cut the correct amount above the horizontal cut of the notch; and, leaves 1/10th of the diameter as a hinge; then, the tree always falls where you intended it to go.
> ( as long as you aim the positioning of the horizontal cut correctly) Also I was taught that the mark of a professional faller was that he/or she always had a large amount of
> wedges with them and used them in the back cut. I have had three sets of double wedges (with sawdust in between the wedges ) in the back cut of a 65 inch diameter dead Fir I was felling for firewood and still had wedges left over. ( I know; I know; I can hear y'all hollering... wedges... huh... don't need them....) Oh; and that 65 inch diameter tree was on really difficult ground; and went down quite nicely I might add... though I have to admit it did end up landing about ten feet down slope of the front of the stump. I think what I am trying to say here is that you use the tools and experience you have; to assess the situation for each tree; and safely get the tree on the ground in a reasonable amount of time.


 Hello Salmon Arm. You show me a "Faller" that doesn't use wedges and I will show you a bullshitter. they are the ones that don't have the skills too. good thing you never "listened" anyway. Your last line says it all. Lots of real Bc interior wet belt cedar fallers around you that qualify to cut on the coast any day of the week.


----------



## john-ford-t

Hi Westboastfaller; Salmon Arm here. I always use wedges and that might be one reason why I am still alive. I have felled large cedar; too, and they can be tricky due to the fact that they are almost always rotten and/or hollow in the center; and, A few I fell seemed good when I was constructing the undercut, but were paper thin when I started the back cut. One in particular, barberchaired like a bomb going off when I was barely started the back cut and although I got out without injury, I lost my 288. But as my grandfather said " you can always replace a saw, but it's pretty hard to replace you" You are right about only bullshitters don't use wedges. 
Some guys only know enough to be dangerous; but, those of us that made a living with saws were aware of the danger and took precautions to reduce it as much as possible. I know, cause I've felled a lot of "Danger" trees (like big cottonwoods, and dead schoolmarms ) and; also, I cut around 7-10 cords of standing dead Pine/ Douglass Fir for firewood each year.


----------



## northmanlogging

not many pro cutters that don't carry wedges.

If they don't then more then likely they are cutting hard woods and just falling everything with the lean hither tither... which does not make them very good fallers IMO.


----------



## Wow

northmanlogging said:


> not many pro cutters that don't carry wedges.
> 
> If they don't then more then likely they are cutting hard woods and just falling everything with the lean hither tither... which does not make them very good fallers IMO.


I make my own wooden wedges and never go to work without a tool belt full, plus some in each saw box. I get low, make more with my jig it's painless. Low would be less than a dozen extra, uncut, unnicked, not splintered on hand. Always have wood curing for making more wedges. The Persimmon ones are so hard they are as brittle as plastic. American Holley worked but was a tad soft. I've about tired of Persimmon and have some cured Elm to try. I cut trees near structures, high lines etc. I remove side leaners, back leaners, heavy forward leaners, and since I'm 70 and don't climb anymore I have to get em down in the only place that don't destroy things. Proper cuts, good saws, sharp chains, snatch blocks with a Bull Rope helps my luck. Not to long ago a non experienced helper allowed the rope to slack a bit after the tree was committed. I missed my Target by a few degrees but still landed in a permissable spot. No damage. Sometimes things happen. Recently again, slack rope, one limb brushed a storage shed. Minor damage to shed big damage to my reputation. I'm a fanatic about hitting my chosen lay but no one is perfect. Those times ropes got slack proper cuts and wedges saved my butt. Often, I've noticed mistakes compound. That's why I don't like to get sloppy. Back when I was young and climbing I topped way to much wood off a tree top. I was going to take the tree down so instead of hiring help the plan was let the wood fall beneath the tree. When all that weight folded over and kicked back on the way down it was like a Road Runner cartoon. What was left of that tree looked like a tuning fork. I was tethered or I'd been dead. That thing beat me like a jealous husband. If it had snapped off I'd be sitting on a cloud bitching for beer. You betcha, I'm cautious. How many times have we quit for the day. Removed our Chaps, face shield and Hard hat then decided to, before we leave, make that one more little bitty cut for a thousand different reasons. Yep, me too. Oh, wedges, sorry I got lost. Yes, love my wedges.


----------



## Maître

I can't believe some said that Humboldt is easier. Im a beginner and I was teached with conventional starting by angle and finishing by flat. I have tried several times cutting an Humboldt and I always endup not matching the cuts together whereas making conventional works perfectly the first time. I must do something wrong when i cut the Humboldt. Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?


----------



## Wow

Maître said:


> I can't believe some said that Humboldt is easier. Im a beginner and I was teached with conventional starting by angle and finishing by flat. I have tried several times cutting an Humboldt and I always endup not matching the cuts together whereas making conventional works perfectly the first time. I must do something wrong when i cut the Humboldt. Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?


Hola amigo.. Agree with you.. I'm an old hand but i've trained a lot of guys and YES, a lot of guys find a Humboldt difficult. The prows make it look easy. I don't see any other goo reason to cut one other than getting more wood on the log. Mills like that nice flat end. BUT,, As you have stated. I start new guys out with a standard top cut. First, as you said, Cut the angle. You can easily see how to make the straight cut using the angle you already made. One thing to think of is Control of the Fall.. With the right cut the tree falls farther before the hing breaks.. Sometimes we cut a mixture of cuts for various reasons. For example on a standard Face cut you can make the long angle notch, THEN, step back look at the stump and decide IF you want to make an under cut.. In my mind every cut is different..A nice long under cut combined with the top cut gives a tree a lot of time before snapping the hinge. THE angle on the bottom helps the tree slide off the stump. Practice this and you might be able to make both above and below cuts leaving a "dutchman" when you need a tree to kick over to one side or the other a little bit.. THIS stuff takes TIME and practice. Start with SAFETY in mind first. Start on smaller trees with very little lean..Think up ideas to try but make sure you know your ideas are safe.. I'm 75 now and i've dropped a lot of trees. Even now, I never take anything for granted. Dead trees are less forgiving..Trees with dead limbs are like wild animals waiting to kill you. USE wedges.. I see guys on TV, walking up dropping trees without any wedges. That's how "THEY" do it.. Me, Most of the time, you can bet I've got wedges in my pouch. Enjoy..may your life be long and prosperous. There's just something special about the sound of a good chainsaw.


----------



## northmanlogging

Maître said:


> I can't believe some said that Humboldt is easier. Im a beginner and I was teached with conventional starting by angle and finishing by flat. I have tried several times cutting an Humboldt and I always endup not matching the cuts together whereas making conventional works perfectly the first time. I must do something wrong when i cut the Humboldt. Do you guys have any tricks for helping me ?


never start with the angle cut, ever, regardless of which flavor cut you prefer, only exception would be a birds mouth. 
Its a lot easier to line up your angle/slope cut to a level cut (gun cut) and its a helluva lot more accurate to keep the saw level when "gunning" the cut hence "gun cut" 

once you've established your gun cut, its just a a matter of eyeballing what angle you want your slope cut to be, then you cut only until the slope/angle cut is INLINE with the gun cut, if you fall short you can recut it, if you find your self too low on a humboldt, just stop and chunk out the face, if you are to high (a dutchman) then cut a little more out until you have the cut opened up. WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T CHASE YOUR GUN CUT, stop and look make sure you never go past the line of your gun cut on either side of the tree. 

This little detail is what makes the Humboldt easy, its forgiving, you can be low, and as long as you stop and clean out the face, it will still go where you want
Starting with a slope cut your are adding multiple angles to deal with and account for in aiming the fall of the tree, any time you add more variables you add more room for errors, start with the flat level cut aim carefully, take your time on it, then base all your other cuts off that cut, once its established, its ultimately the one cut the effects the trees fall more then any other.
Another trick with Humboldts, is to set your felling dogs (they aint meant for bucking FYI) just a little low of the gun cut, point the bar at where you intend the tree to go, lower the tip until you get the desired slope angle, then use the dogs to rotate the saw through the cut, 90% of the time with a small amount of practice you'll be dead on


----------



## Maître

northmanlogging said:


> never start with the angle cut, ever, regardless of which flavor cut you prefer, only exception would be a birds mouth.
> Its a lot easier to line up your angle/slope cut to a level cut (gun cut) and its a helluva lot more accurate to keep the saw level when "gunning" the cut hence "gun cut"
> 
> once you've established your gun cut, its just a a matter of eyeballing what angle you want your slope cut to be, then you cut only until the slope/angle cut is INLINE with the gun cut, if you fall short you can recut it, if you find your self too low on a humboldt, just stop and chunk out the face, if you are to high (a dutchman) then cut a little more out until you have the cut opened up. WHATEVER YOU DO DON'T CHASE YOUR GUN CUT, stop and look make sure you never go past the line of your gun cut on either side of the tree.
> 
> This little detail is what makes the Humboldt easy, its forgiving, you can be low, and as long as you stop and clean out the face, it will still go where you want
> Starting with a slope cut your are adding multiple angles to deal with and account for in aiming the fall of the tree, any time you add more variables you add more room for errors, start with the flat level cut aim carefully, take your time on it, then base all your other cuts off that cut, once its established, its ultimately the one cut the effects the trees fall more then any other.
> Another trick with Humboldts, is to set your felling dogs (they aint meant for bucking FYI) just a little low of the gun cut, point the bar at where you intend the tree to go, lower the tip until you get the desired slope angle, then use the dogs to rotate the saw through the cut, 90% of the time with a small amount of practice you'll be dead on


Hello thanks for your tip! Now Im starting to be really confused. I followed a security training last spring how to safely felt trees and they taught to start with angle cut and finish by the flat. I have tried your method and i found even for a conventional it is very very hard to match both cut (flat and angle) when Starting with the flat. I noticed that people from west alway start with the flat whereas people from east start with angle. Also I watched a lot of YouTube videos about felling trees and most of them starts with the flat. Why I'm i finding this method so hard? Is there something that I didn't understand ? When you start with the flat? How do you you set you bar angle so you can be sure that both cut will match each other well?

Thank you man and happy new year


----------



## northmanlogging

Maître said:


> Hello thanks for your tip! Now Im starting to be really confused. I followed a security training last spring how to safely felt trees and they taught to start with angle cut and finish by the flat. I have tried your method and i found even for a conventional it is very very hard to match both cut (flat and angle) when Starting with the flat. I noticed that people from west alway start with the flat whereas people from east start with angle. Also I watched a lot of YouTube videos about felling trees and most of them starts with the flat. Why I'm i finding this method so hard? Is there something that I didn't understand ? When you start with the flat? How do you you set you bar angle so you can be sure that both cut will match each other well?
> 
> Thank you man and happy new year


a lot of it is just practice, muscle memory and all that. 

Start your cuts all of them, with your body square to the tree and your shoulders in line with where you want the tree to land. 
hold the saw level and make your "gunn" cut the flat one, Using the gunning lines on the saw to carefully aim, with your body squared to the tree, you should end with the bar straight out in front of you, and be just before centerline of the tree (this is a judgement call, but I rarely cut past C/L 40% is good)

check the off side to make sure you cut the whole stem and didn't come up short. 

back on the start side, rotate the saw out of the cut, set the dog just below the gun cut, then tilt the nose of the bar down to get your desired angle, the felling dog should be holding most of the saws weight, its what they are meant for, then its simply a matter of keeping that dog anchored and rotating the saw up through the cut, stopping just before the bar is straight out and check the off side for alignment, finish the cut, if it lines up great, if it low, stop and hack out the chunks. 

The 2 tricks here, are starting with your shoulders square and inline with the fall, and anchoring the felling dog for the angled cut, the rest is just learning how to hold the saw up and get it parked where you want it in the first place.
There is always time to stop and think before you start to cut, plan every cut before you make the first cut, its not a race, your cheating death and manipulating gravity with a multi ton living hammer that hates your guts and fights dirty.


----------

