# What makes a perfect flipline???



## NickfromWI (Nov 26, 2002)

Hello Tree People...
A couple of guys have asked me to make flip-lines for them. One wants a 3-strand, one wants Braided-Safety Blue. Both are using aluminum locking snaps purchased from BlueRidge Arborist Supply. What I was wondering is...what are the things that you think make a perfect flipline? Steel snap or aluminum? long or short? eye on both ends? mechanical ascender or friction hitch? 3-strand or braided line? what else....so many options!!!

love
nick


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 26, 2002)

I spliced eyes in both ends of my 10’ Pro Stripe 16 strand flip line. I use a Microcender and aluminum carabiner. I love the setup. It is a lot lighter than my 10’ double braid and my 10’ steel core. I have been trimming trees on the same job for two days now and do not miss the weight of the steel core.


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## treeclimber165 (Nov 26, 2002)

Unlike most here, I like the 4'-7' adjustable buckstrap (Sherrill #15237, page 16). I replaced the floating snap on one end with a biner, but I like the steel locking snap on one end for flipping around a lead. I used 3 strand lanyards for years, but now find the 16 strand lasts a lot longer. I will probably go to a longer flipline with a Gibbs ascender on my next shopping binge, but I think I will stick with the steel clip so I can flip it easier. 

I have a lifeline with an alum. snap spliced on one end, and it is about impossible to flip it over a limb without balling it up into a monkey's fist. The snap is too light to carry the rope back to me.


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *Unlike most here, I like the 4'-7' adjustable buckstrap (Sherrill #15237, page 16). I replaced the floating snap on one end with a biner, but I like the steel locking snap on one end for flipping around a lead. I used 3 strand lanyards for years, but now find the 16 strand lasts a lot longer. I will probably go to a longer flipline with a Gibbs ascender on my next shopping binge, but I think I will stick with the steel clip so I can flip it easier.
> 
> I have a lifeline with an alum. snap spliced on one end, and it is about impossible to flip it over a limb without balling it up into a monkey's fist. The snap is too light to carry the rope back to me. *



Brian,

Just a few questions. Why use that kind of lanyard? It takes two hands to adjust it and most times you have to reach around to the back side of the tree. 

What do you like about the Gibbs better than the Petzl? The Gibbs weighs twice what the Petzl does and it costs more. I have not used a Gibbs but there must be something about it that is better to pay more for it and carry more weight. Does the Gibbs come with a bolt to replace the pin?

Are you using your climbing line to spike up large diameter removals? That lanyard does not adjust very long and when you get into the top it does not adjust down short.

Are you able to get your climbing line to pull through a FC with the snap spliced on it or do you install your line in it backwards and pull the standing part out?

Why is it so hard for people to flip a lanyard around a spar with a carabiner on the end? I do it all the time and have no problem with it. I have noticed you have to flip the heavy steel clips harder to get them around the tree. 


I am not trying to be a hard a$$. I am just curious.


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## treeclimber165 (Nov 26, 2002)

Tim- I'll try my best to answer. 
"Why use that kind of lanyard? It takes two hands to adjust it and most times you have to reach around to the back side of the tree." -- Most times that I'm putting my lanyard on, I'm holding on to the trunk. When I flip the lanyard around, the adjustment is usually right next to my hand instead of down by my side. I have no problem adjusting it out and holding on at the same time.

"What do you like about the Gibbs better than the Petzl? The Gibbs weighs twice what the Petzl does and it costs more. I have not used a Gibbs but there must be something about it that is better to pay more for it and carry more weight. Does the Gibbs come with a bolt to replace the pin?"-- I don't know, I have never owned either. The sherrill catalog showed a flipline setup with the Gibbs ascender. I'd like to see both with my own two eyes and feel them with my own two paws before deciding which to buy.

"Are you using your climbing line to spike up large diameter removals? That lanyard does not adjust very long and when you get into the top it does not adjust down short."-- I'm rarely on wood larger than 4' DBH. My lanyard reaches just fine around 3'+ DBH. I can't recall the last time my lanyard was too short. On very large removals, I set a line above the first main crotch, ascend to there without a lanyard (or use a ladder), then put my lanyard on and spike up from there.
On tops less than 4", I take a wrap with my lanyard. It holds me just fine, and gives a better distribution of weight on skinny tops. 

"Are you able to get your climbing line to pull through a FC with the snap spliced on it or do you install your line in it backwards and pull the standing part out?"-- Call me a hack, I don't own a false crotch. Thinking of making one, probably will soon. I've only used one a couple times, many years ago. It got stuck trying to remove it, it got left in the tree. 

"Why is it so hard for people to flip a lanyard around a spar with a carabiner on the end?"-- Around a spar is no problem. Try flipping a rope with a spliced alum snap (or an alum biner) over an overhead limb 10' away, and shake the snap back down to you.


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## treeclimber165 (Nov 26, 2002)

*Dear Lovey,*

What makes a 'perfect' lanyard depends greatly on the climber and his climbing style. What works perfectly for one climber can be totally wrong for the next climber. If there were one perfect lanyard, we wouldn't need to discuss it.


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 26, 2002)

Thanks for the reply Brian. Like I said I was not trying to be a hard a$$. Different people have different styles and I like to read about them. This old dog has changed his style many times after learning a different way.

I think you will really dig a 10’ 16 strand flip line. It will adjust down very short or long when positioning your self while trimming. Sometimes after getting myself into position I need a little more or less length and the one hand adjustment means I don’t have to lower my 020 onto its lanyard or holster my hand saw.

Now that you are using an advanced hitch you need to get a FC. While limb walking in a live oak the bark will give me a hard time feeding slack or taking it up. The FC makes it real smooth.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 26, 2002)

I like a long lanyard, with an aluminum rope snap spliced on one end, an eye on the other end, and adjusted with a VT and fair lead.

The ascenders only move one way with weight on them. I used a gibbs for several years until I learned how to tie a VT, man what an improvement. I never liked the miro ascender because it didn't fit well on arborist ropes, and found that 7/16" static type ropes did not last long.
I also tried the petzel grillion and found it worked better than the ascenders, but not nearly as nice as the VT.
Using a distal has the advantage of double end use, but it is harder to pull slack than the VT, so I don't use that any more.
I think steel snaps are dangerous in that they can hit you after a flip. I also think steel core fliplines became popular out west, where more climbers seem to use only one tie in point when working up spars. For proper modern climbing, the steel is unnecessary.

My question for Brian is if your lanyard is only 7' long, which is a maximum 3.5' reach, why would you need a steel weight to throw your line 3.5 feet???

And the biggest spar you can go around is about 26", if my math is right.


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## Mahk (Nov 26, 2002)

I too like a 'Beraneck' adjustable lanyard--but mainly for pruning. I don't like things hanging loose below my feet. I made the Beraneck so that I can put it over my shoulder when it is in the closed position and it is out of the way. But again I use this mainly for pruning when I don't need to constantly adjust the length of the lanyard. A longer lanyard gets hung up in my feet and gets hung up on branches as I descend. I have to continually thread it through limbs or risk having the end flip off the limb and hit me in the head. 

When doing removals I do like a longer lanyard with an ajustment at the side. 

Nick, if you make the lanyard with large spliced eyes at each end it will give you maximum flexibility for a side-adjustable lanyard. You can girth hitch a snap or krab at either or both ends and use any type of mechanical or rope adjuster. You could have it double ended (a 2 'n 1) or if you like single ended you could use one end for a time and then switch the snap (or krab) to the other end so that the rope wears evenly. 

One note of technique: if you use a 2 'n 1 lanyard use a key chain krab w/brass swivel as a slack tender, rather than a key chain krab w/ a micro pulley. This will make it easier to take the slack tender on and off as you need to.

Also a 2 'n 1 is, as the name implies, one piece of rope. Using both ends does not constitute two means of attachment when using a chain saw. 

A steel core flip line is not chain saw proof. Don Blair (Sierra Moreno) and Dave Anderson (Bartlett) have done tests and both report cutting through a steel core in less than a second. 

I think I have 8 or ten different types of lanyards right now, steel core, three strand, sixteen strand and leather strap (!) I have a Gibbs, a Microjuster (now called 'Micrograb'--this has a bolt; the Microscender has a two stage sping-loaded pin; Macrograb -scender are the respective larger versions of these), a Grillion and various friction hitches. I have the Beraneck that can be put out of the way over my shoulder, several medium sized ones, and a 20 foot one for big wood and crane removals. I use aluminum snaps, steel snaps, scew links and various types of krabs and find a use for all of these. Don Roppollo and I gave a 45 minute talk on lanyards at TCI, and that wasn't enough time to cover everything. I agree, there is no perfect lanyard to fit all trees for all people. Or even all trees for one person.

Mahk


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## treeclimber165 (Nov 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *My question for Brian is if your lanyard is only 7' long, which is a maximum 3.5' reach, why would you need a steel weight to throw your line 3.5 feet???
> 
> And the biggest spar you can go around is about 26", if my math is right.
> *


First, I stated that my alum snap was on my LIFELINE, not my lanyard. I also said that I will probably be changing to the type of setup you two use on my next shopping splurge. My gut feeling is that I would be happier with a steel snap on my lanyard after using an alum. snap on my LIFELINE. Simply personal preference.

As to the size spar I can reach around with my lanyard, you are not considering the fact that my side D rings are about 18" apart, not connected to each other. I have also been known to clip one side to one of my center D rings (or both D-rings, one on each side) which gives me another foot on large spars. I also use my lifeline as a lanyard when blocking down wood too fat for my lanyard. Otherwise I'm tied in from above.

How many more times do I have to say that I'm willing to try another lanyard setup before you two quit giving me grief over the type of lanyard I've used for 15 years (and is the only type of lanyard I've ever seen in person being used)? Remember, I only gave up my Tautline hitch a little over 2 months ago!  AND I could probably STILL outclimb you, or at least give you a run for your money!


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> * I have also been known to clip one or both sides to my center D rings which gives me another foot on large spars. *



I have to back Brian on this one. It has been a while since I have used a buttstrap style saddle but now I remember using the center dees back when I was using a pole strap to get up those fat trees.


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mahk _
> *I too like a 'Beraneck' adjustable lanyard--but mainly for pruning. I don't like things hanging loose below my feet. I made the Beraneck so that I can put it over my shoulder when it is in the closed position and it is out of the way. But again I use this mainly for pruning when I don't need to constantly adjust the length of the lanyard. A longer lanyard gets hung up in my feet and gets hung up on branches as I descend. I have to continually thread it through limbs or risk having the end flip off the limb and hit me in the head.
> 
> 
> Mahk *





Mahk,

Brian had mentioned a while back how the long lanyard hangs down and gets tangled and I agree with both of you. However, I feel the one hand adjustments and the longer length are worth the trouble.

How are you able to do pruning without adjusting your lanyard? Every time I get in position on a limb walk I have to adjust my lanyard so I can be “locked” into the right spot to make cuts or use a pole pruner.


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## NickfromWI (Nov 26, 2002)

*I agree*

Like 165 said, there is no such thing as the "Perfect" anything...However that does not mean it's not worth talking about. As the other posters have shown, there are a lot small details that can be shared. This is how we get new and great ideas! Otherwise, we end up still using a Beranek style lanyard after 15 years of training! 

As far as the steel vs. aluminum...I've only used steel for a couple months, then everything was switched to aluminum. I never have problems flipping a snap or a carabiner around or down a branch. I guess you just gotta know how to work the rope.

Brian- I'll tell you what, as a Holiday Special, I will make you a flip line. I assume you have the slack-tender pulley. If you send me money to cover the supplies, I will splice you a 16strand with an eye on each end (and a steel or aluminum snap on one end, if you'd like!) as well as a single-braid prussik sling for the distel or schwabish. Let me know!!!

good discussion folks.

love
nick


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 26, 2002)

Since you will be able to make new lines for these people splicing the clip into the line with a tight eye is much better (IMO).

For most average climbers, a 10-20ft I&I with clips is good. A prussik adjuster for those with mopderate skill and distal/slacktender for those with a bit more.

I liek Tom's with the back to back tress hithces for two way control.


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## NickfromWI (Nov 26, 2002)

*Eye Splice Size*

I agree JPS- I like a small eye for the side that has a snap on it. I prefer to put a small plastic thimble to distribute the wear. I've done a couple that used the small orange Petzl "POO" pulleys. I put the snap through the pulley, then splice it on! I think those little plastic black thimbles seem kinda cheap, though I've only had one totally deform on me.

These are the little things I wonder about.

love
nick

maybe, if i had a TV, I would just watch that, rather than think about things like how to get a orange Petzl pulley on to a snap-hook!


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## Stumper (Nov 26, 2002)

like Brian, I used an adjustable buckstrap for ages (and liked it). Seldom was it too short. When up in the small wood on a spar I just made a full wrap. Now I'm using a flipline with friction hitch. I like the extra length and easy adjustment. I'm using 3 strand (because it's easy to splice). I have found 3 strand to be extremely long wearing but friction hitches tend to lock tighter under load. I've got two made up. One has steel snaps and the other alumnium. Frankly I still haven't decided which I prefer. Tom's idea of a hitch on each side sounds neat-I'll have to try it. 

Mike,I've considered using the V.T. on the flipline. Any 'hitches' in using it in that application?


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## xander9727 (Nov 26, 2002)

I use a 10' steel core flip line. I use a prusic as an adjuster. I have a steel snap link on one end and an eye splice on the other. If I had my choice I would have a steel snap on both ends. I like to use my free end when manuvering around branches to provide an additional tie in point.


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## Tree Machine (Nov 26, 2002)

That's an interesting thought, Xander. If I read you right, you sometimes use you steelcore flipline, you flip it around a limb and clip it back onto it own self (choker the limb), you've created an additional (nearby) tie-in point, but are clipped to one side of your saddle. If you had a snap on each end, you could work from _either_ hip. I really like that Idea. Never seen a (steelcore) flipline with a safety snap at both ends, but why not?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 27, 2002)

That's kind funny TM, I've never heard of a lanyard <I>without </I>a snap at both ends. That's why the distal is popular, it works both ways for double ended operation.

Stumper, no hitches, the tail of my lanyard is clipped to my belt so even if it failed, which it never has, there is back up. It's a good way to test out new climbing hitches, before trusting your life on them or having them slow you down figuring them out. I always give new hitches a run on the lanyard for a couple weeks before useing them, or trashing them.

Nick, using a thimble can cause the snap to get stuck in tight crotchs more easily, just like the long eye which needs girth hitching does. Those Kong aluminum rope snaps work the best, imo.


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## Bradley (Nov 27, 2002)

I use different lengths of 1/2" steel core with a Micrograb for climbing on hooks, it sure makes going up faster due to it's stiffness. I don't trust the cable for saw protection, but like it's stiffness. I ALWAYS use my lifeline as a second lanyard when acending if it is not positioned overhead and used as a ground belay. I also have some 35' 7/16" PMI max-wear lanyards for pruning. Makes for good 2nd TIP. Also have a couple 1/2" max-wear rope lanyards, 10 and 12' but don't use them much. When do you guys replace your steel core lines. The rope sheath fuzzes fairly quick but does not provide strength, does it matter?


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 27, 2002)

New England Ropes has a new rope for lanyards. I felt a piece of it at TCI. It's light weight but stiff like a steel core.

I already posted a description of the DEDA lanyard, double ended double adjusting, on the site. Do a search and I'm sure you'll find it.

The lanyard is made from 3/8" static line and I use double fiherman's hitches to tie the aluminum snaps. 

Run one end of the lanyard through your d-ring and then tie on your adjusting hitch to the d. This setup allows you to use the d as a slack tender. One less piece of gear and a few more pennies to use to buy new gear!

Last week I was at Fresco and they said that the company that makes the $14 flat aluminum snaps that are popular for lanyards is out of business. If you have a source for those snaps, buy up a few and stash them. The ones that are available to replace them are a little larger.

Tom


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## Dan Flinn (Nov 27, 2002)

See, that's what's so cool about reading these forums! I now realize that I am using an ancient system compared to you guys. I have two lanyards made from three strand rope with the safety snap spliced on one end and an adjustable loop with a safety snap in the loop.

One adjusts from about 2' to 5' and the other from 3' to about 6'. As I write this, I guess these work fine for me as I don't climb with spikes and mainly use the lanyards as a second point of contact or to hold me in place while limb walking.

Believe me, I am going to reread these threads and start trying new things!

Dan


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## Greg (Nov 27, 2002)

My lanyard is 20' with a distal tied to a william biner with micropulley attached. With the Micro attached you can't easily use it as a double ender which is kind of a bummer, because I used one previously and really liked it, however the distal/micro combo work soooo smoothly that I am commited to it. Long lanyards are the best!!!
I used to have a steel snap on one end but recently changed it to alumn, it got hung on a twig and I yanked it, it came flying at me at a couple of hundred mph and split my lip open. Nice to be literaly drinking and dripping blood at 40ft. The alum would also bust you up, but my steel clip was old, bulky and had a few hard edges that I knew were trouble. The alum does not drop as good as the steel when tossing over a limb, but no big deal.
I typically have my lanyard attached at the center of my harness, I find it much more comfy than at my side d's.

Dan, welcome, and enjoy the site, this will propel your climbing to the next level in a very short period of time. 

Greg


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 27, 2002)

Dan,

Since you're climbing w/two lanyards, the step to a DEDA lanyard will be nothing. One gain is less gear and less weight.

Glad to hear about another Traditional Climber convert to Progressive Climbing!

Tom


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 27, 2002)

Nick,

Since you're doing splicing for hire, I'd like to ask you a question.

What kind of liability insurance did you find to cover your exposure? I've looked for some odd liability coverages and it's not easy. The cost of these odd coverages has postponed a couple of endeavors that I've thought about. [Nothing related to splicing]

Tom


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## Dan Flinn (Nov 27, 2002)

Tom,

I did a search for the DEDA lanyard, but only came up with this thread - I don't think I searched correctly.

Would you mind describing the setup in a bit more detail. 

Many Thanks
Dan


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 27, 2002)

> Last week I was at Fresco and they said that the company that makes the $14 flat aluminum snaps that are popular for lanyards is out of business. If you have a source for those snaps, buy up a few and stash them. The ones that are available to replace them are a little larger.



Better get on Denny Morehouse to get us a replacement product!

Someone let the Petzl people know too.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 27, 2002)

That would be "product liability insurance".


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 27, 2002)

Here is an end to end description of the DEDA:

*Plain aluminum, flat, double locking snap tied with a double fisherman's hitch into 3/8" static line.
*White 5/16" NE EconoBraid friction hitch tied to left d-ring
*Lanyard passes through d-ring so that d-ring acts as the slack tender. You need to pull the rope straight away or bend it forward in order to adjust. If you pull the rope backwards, the friction hitch will sometimes pull backwards through the d-ring.
*Long length of rope in a bite.
*Attached to the side d-ring is a stainless steel bow shackle. The shackle is racked below the white friction hitch.
*A second friction hitch of the same material, this time in red, is tied to the bow shackle.
*On out to a red, aluminum snap.
*Add your favorite slack tender configuration below the red end. Keychain biner or brass snap works well. Skip the rated pulley. Save your money for useful tools.

I carry a 20' lanyard with this system. there are three bites of rope: one from plain biner to ankle back up through friction hitch, fh. Second bite between fh's, third from red fh to ankle to red snap which hangs from saddle.

This system can get to be a mess once in a while. By adjusting all of the loops, I rarely step into a bite. I find that I use the DEDA a lot now that I have it setup. The color coding helps me keep track of which fh to pull, depending on the color of the snap.

Tom


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## Greg (Nov 29, 2002)

Someone who got all of that draw a picture please!!!!
greg


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Nov 29, 2002)

Here's what I got:


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## hillbilly (Nov 29, 2002)

Mike's picture pretty much has all the information needed, but I think I'm gonna post anyway.
This is the DEDA you were describing Tom ?
If not, let me know and I'll edit my post.


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 29, 2002)

I still like Mike's better.  Use that often do ya Mike?


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## Tree Machine (Nov 29, 2002)

*Flipline systems -- The Wirecore Flipline*

One must realize that Tom Dunlap is one of our resident techno-geniuses. His system is highly evolved and he can probem-solve his way out of ANYTHING. I, too, look forward to the pics, or drawing, and in the meantime I will offer up my flipline evolution.

I've always been kind of a fan on steel-core fliplines. The first couple I had (starting a few years ago, OK?) were the bright orange HI VEE style ones from New England. These were 8-footers with a diameter of 1/2". For my cammed rope-grabbing device, I used a Petzl microcender and an autolock caribiner for my 'microjuster'.

The reason I like 8 foot is several-fold. First, on my 32" waist line, that 8 feet goes around me EXACTLY two times with maybe an inch or two to spare and clips back on to my left-side saddle ring. Most of us, I imagine, aren't a LOT bigger, unless you're John Paul Sanborn, in which case you would need a flipline somewhere between 12 and 19 feet (But remember, he can crush a Sasquatch!).

This flipping 2X around the waist is conveniently convenient because when not in use, the flipline is around your belly area and not hanging down in your lower saddle gear. I permanently affix the thimble/eye end of the line to my right side with a modified delta (triangular) quick link. The line originates on my right side D-ring, goes around (counterclockwise) once, twice, across my belly, clip to the left side. Yesterday I wore a Winter coat and rather than hike my coat up, I went around, once, twice and not being long enough to go across the front side to the left side, I simply clipped to my right side. I think a guy with up to a 40" waist could stow his flipline using this latter description.

Another reason I like 8 foot (aside from it's lighter than 10 foot) is that I don't very often have to flipline around circumferences bigger than 9 1/2 feet (remember, there's a spread of about a foot and a half between your right side permanent attachment, and your left side clip-in attachment) Doing our math, Circumference = pi r and we know our MAXIMUM target circumference to be 9 1/2 feet
9.5 = pi r and dividing both sides by pi, we get r = 9.5 divided by 3.14, or a radius of 3.02 (lets call it three ) feet. Radius is 1/2 the diameter, showing mathematically that you can get an 8 foot flipline around a 6 foot *diameter* trunk, and clipped back to yourself. You're pasted there. You can't move, but it is possible. For the RARE time that I encounter this, I pull a 30" sling off my harness and use it to elongate my flipline. Here I would clip the sling to my left side, clip the flipline to the middle of the sling and clip the other end of the sling next to the first end, giving me 15 " of extension. If I need a full 30" of extension, well, don't fold the sling in half. By the way, why aren't you just rappelling down this fat trunk anyway? If you're going UP, use your Bigshot and ascend the rope up to smaller diameters.

In searching for 'the better steel-cored flipline', I found one from Wall Safety, which is the yellow one sold through Sherrill. The diameter of this line is 1/2", but if measured with a caliper is _just slightly_ under a half inch. This serves an advantage. Your microcender adjuster moves along it with great ease, without having to depress the cam lever with your thumb. However, when you adjust and clip back on to yoursef, the cam locks in rock solid and bombproof. Still, I back this up. Rather than letting the terminal swivel end hang free, I either continue it around my backside and clip to my right side D-ring, or just clip it on the left side, adjacent to the microjuster. That way, if the microjuster WERE to ever fail, I'm_still clipped in._ 

A NOTE on the microjuster. I use a Petzl microcender harboring a Kong captive-eye style aluminum biner as the attachment point (and still looking for the ideal biner for this place). The microjuster comes standard, but Petzl includes a small bolt and nylon lock nut to replace the spring pin for use in life support situations. REPLACE THE SPRINGPIN with the permanent bolt. That is all.

Lastly, about dielectric properties (electrical conductivity), wirecore fliplines are NOT APPROVED for trimming around power lines. They WILL conduct electricity, maybe even as easy as your knees, hands, or any other part that is touching a tree that becomes energized. The rope sheath around the wire core *is* non-conductive, as is a conventional rope or nylon web buckstrap, but that only goes for if it's not wet, or impregnated with grit.

Second lastly, in an earlier thread, there was a statement of a chainsaw having been shown to go through a steelcore flipline in less than a second. Under test conditions, I've no doubt you can make this happen. However, in 'in-tree' conditions I speak from experience, if you are momentarily careless enough to hit your flipline, colorful nylon fuzz will fly everywhere, and there will be a ratcheting vibration through the flipline and INTO your saddle. If these two rather obvious clues aren't enough to make you shut off your saw immediately, then have a nice landing. A regular rope, or nylon buckstrap, I'm sorry, the chainsaw will go right through it, and unless you're roped into a TIP up higher, you're in-flight. That's precisely WHY they make wire core fliplines.


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## xander9727 (Nov 29, 2002)

*Re: Flipline systems -- The Wirecore Flipline*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *Doing our math, Circumference = pi r and we know our MAXIMUM target circumference to be 9 1/2 feet
> 9.5 = pi r and dividing both sides by pi, we get r = 9.5 divided by 3.14, or a radius of 3.02 (lets call it three ) feet. Radius is 1/2 the diameter, showing mathematically that you can get an 8 foot flipline around a 6 foot diameter *



The formula is (2 pi r) or( pi d). A 9.5 line will get you around a 3 foot tree.


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 29, 2002)

My crewmate Mike, from Wisconsin, got the drawing right. That's what the DEDA becomes every once in a while

Hillbilly, my teammate from Sweden, actually got the drawing right. That's what the DEDA starts out like. Nice job!

Just as I was about the print the DEDA illustration I noticed a little detail. The rope that goes through the d-ring actually should be illustrated going under the curved part of the d and over the straight leg of the d. Otherwise the slack tending characteristics won't work as well.

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 29, 2002)

Actualy, to split ahirs, the length of lanyard needed would be more like (c/2)+(r2)+ y. 

Y being the climbers prefered relief from the trunk.

Draw a circle for the spar, put the climber on and add the lanyard and relief.

Half c because the line comes around the backside of the tree. 2r because the ends then come to the d rings. ok the geometry is not perfect with d=36. maybe the math police will go into that.


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 29, 2002)

I like for my body to be at an angle of 40 – 45 degrees to the trunk so that my gaffs will not kick out on me. It also allows me to have plenty of room to use a saw and seems to take a lot of the weight off my arches. The 10’ steel core barely allows this on some trees I climb. The stiffness of it makes it a lot easier to work your way up to a smaller diameter section. I could not imagine using an eight footer for this. You might as well grab the ladder off the chipper and do that uneasy “step off” onto the tree. I like my 16 strand lanyard for it’s lightness but the WCF will slide or “flip” up a large spar easier.


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## hillbilly (Nov 29, 2002)

*what don't you do to please the tree legends *

Revised orientation through D-ring


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## Mahk (Nov 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tim Gardner _
> 
> How are you able to do pruning without adjusting your lanyard? Every time I get in position on a limb walk I have to adjust my lanyard so I can be “locked” into the right spot to make cuts or use a pole pruner.


Tim;

The 'Beraneck' is adjustable. It just doesn't allow as easy adjustment as any of the types, mechanical or rope, that have the adjustment at the hip. Also , the 'adjuster' (knot) is sometimes at the backside of the stem. What I am calling a 'Beraneck' is the same as the 'adjustable buckstrap' on p. 16 of the Sherrill catalogue. 

As I said before, I use this mainly for pruning, when most of the work is up in the canopy and I'm not trying to 'stand' right on the trunk. By having the lanyard over my shoulder and carrying a chainsaw only when needed, pruning is a lot less tangled. 


How do you make a quoted post appear in bold text?


Mahk


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## Tim Gardner (Nov 29, 2002)

After you click on the "quote" button do not remove or change the brakets at the end of the quote. Just do a return and start your post


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## Mahk (Nov 29, 2002)

*Re: Flipline systems -- The Wirecore Flipline*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *
> Second lastly, in an earlier thread, there was a statement of a chainsaw having been shown to go through a steelcore flipline in less than a second. Under test conditions, I've no doubt you can make this happen. However, in 'in-tree' conditions I speak from experience, if you are momentarily careless enough to hit your flipline, colorful nylon fuzz will fly everywhere, and there will be a ratcheting vibration through the flipline and INTO your saddle. If these two rather obvious clues aren't enough to make you shut off your saw immediately, then have a nice landing. A regular rope, or nylon buckstrap, I'm sorry, the chainsaw will go right through it, and unless you're roped into a TIP up higher, you're in-flight. That's precisely WHY they make wire core fliplines. *




I made that statement, not to discourage people from using steel core fliplines (SCFs), but to make them aware that SCFs are not chainsaw proof. 
You are right, a SCF will divert an angled blow from a chainsaw. You have apparently experienced that yourself and I have witnessed it happen to another climber. Nonetheless, in addition to the controlled tests that I mentioned, I have also heard of people cutting themselves out of a tree despite the fact that they were using a SCF. SCFs may provide an extra margin of safety, but they are not invincible and people should be aware of that.

In the research that I have done, I found that SCFs were originally manufactured for use on the west coast to stiffen the line and make it easier to 'flip' the line up large trees. Although SCFs are now widely used as added protection against inadvertent contact with a chainsaw, I don't know of any manufacturer that says that SCFs are chainsaw proof. No climber should assume this either. 

Mahk


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 29, 2002)

The code needed for bold is bracketing with * in front and putting a slash (/) in front of the alpha character to close it.

italics is 
[/email]

[url]

What I did to your last post was to put the [/quote] at the end of tims paragraph.

I find it easier to hit the quote key in a reply, enter a single space then cut and paste the lines I want in between the codes. 

quote] PASTE TEXT [/quote]

I left the first brackets out so everything wound show up*


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2003)

This is my 6th or 7th lanyard in the last 10 yrs. I've been using this (pictured) now for 9 months, with a microcender and have nothing but good things to say. -TM-


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 18, 2003)

How can you use that with a Microcender? The MC is a one way tool. Doesn't the lanyard slip when you use the opposite end?

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 18, 2003)

One end is for when you want to stay up, the other end is for going down fast.


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## njarbor (Aug 19, 2003)

i use a fixed static line from rock climbing with a french prusic and a locking ladder snap


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## Tree Machine (Aug 22, 2003)

*Steelcore and a microcender*



> How can you use that with a Microcender? The MC is a one way tool. Doesn't the lanyard slip when you use the opposite end?



Yessir, the MC is a one-way device, and that's how I use it. Always. 

99% of the time I clip/unclip from my left side, and use the MC conventionally. There are those moments, such as limbwalking way out in no-man's land where where I might use the opposite end (right side clip), but it would not require the use of the microcender. 

For example, I need to do an impossible cut out in no-man's land and its going to require a hard-right lean to almost horizontal. for this, I can unclip from the right side of my saddle, go around an adjacent limb and use both safety snaps on my saddle's left side. OR, similarly, right-side snap around an adjacent limb to my left, and clipped back to the flipline itself (choker), giving me extra length from that 2nd tie-in point. It's just about having extra versatility and options for your 2nd TIP. -TM-


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