# is this legal?



## ouachita (Dec 5, 2009)

mabe somebody knows the answer to this. Im not sure what the rules are here. In the Ouachita national forest if your camping I know you can take any downed wood for firewood but I dont know if you are alowed to cut it with a chainsaw or take it home. The tree is actually on the highway right of way and has already been felled buy the power company. Its about a 20" white oak and I would like to get it since its right on my drive way. There is also a 30" maybe 36" red oak that fell naturally just a littel further in the woods. Does anybody have any ideas.


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## floyd (Dec 5, 2009)

Go to the Ranger station or supervisor's office & get a $5 firewood permit.


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## slowp (Dec 5, 2009)

floyd said:


> Go to the Ranger station or supervisor's office & get a $5 firewood permit.



And ask them all those questions. Firewood rules are very different across the country. There may be a person who is assigned to do firewood, ask if they are available to answer your questions.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 5, 2009)

Around here trees belong to the property owner. And you need permission from the property owner to take the wood, otherwise you could be charged with theft of wood.

In my area the property owner could be BLM, U.S. Forest Service, Army Corps of Engineers, State, County, private, etc. And you would need a written permit or bill of sale from any of these to "transport" the wood. Even if it is your own property, you would need to write yourself a transport permit or you could get a ticket in Oregon! (Then you would go to court and need to prove that the owner of the wood gave you permission to take it.)


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## redprospector (Dec 5, 2009)

Billy_Bob said:


> Around here trees belong to the property owner. And you need permission from the property owner to take the wood, otherwise you could be charged with theft of wood.
> 
> In my area the property owner could be BLM, U.S. Forest Service, Army Corps of Engineers, State, County, private, etc. And you would need a written permit or bill of sale from any of these to "transport" the wood. Even if it is your own property, you would need to write yourself a transport permit or you could get a ticket in Oregon! (Then you would go to court and need to prove that the owner of the wood gave you permission to take it.)



In New Mexico we have the same *STUPID* law about having a permit to transport "woody products". I can't legally haul a 2x4 without the receipt, or a permit. Not only can they give you a ticket here, they will confiscate your load. The only time I was on the carpet for it, I had a load of oak (hard to come by here). They made me unload it in the FS yard. I had to have the land owner come to court to prove my innocence. The judge found me not guilty, but some how my load of oak was gone when I went to get it the next day.
Talk about a Police State, what ever happened to assumed innocent untill proved guilty. This law says you have to carry proof of your innocence at all times. 

Andy


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## Jacob J. (Dec 5, 2009)

Billy_Bob said:


> Around here trees belong to the property owner. And you need permission from the property owner to take the wood, otherwise you could be charged with theft of wood.
> 
> In my area the property owner could be BLM, U.S. Forest Service, Army Corps of Engineers, State, County, private, etc. And you would need a written permit or bill of sale from any of these to "transport" the wood. Even if it is your own property, you would need to write yourself a transport permit or you could get a ticket in Oregon! (Then you would go to court and need to prove that the owner of the wood gave you permission to take it.)



Is that a county ordinance or a state ordinance? Reason I ask is I get wood permits from FS and BLM all the time and I don't need any kind of trip permit. No one here (Douglas County) has ever been prosecuted for hauling wood either, unless they were stealing 'real' timber off federal or state lands (logs in excess of 8'.)


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## slowp (Dec 6, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> Is that a county ordinance or a state ordinance? Reason I ask is I get wood permits from FS and BLM all the time and I don't need any kind of trip permit. No one here (Douglas County) has ever been prosecuted for hauling wood either, unless they were stealing 'real' timber off federal or state lands (logs in excess of 8'.)



I have heard it is a state law. Warshington requires it for cedar and now maple. But they won't stop you if the maple is cut up in firewood sizes. Cedar theft is an ongoing problem and maple is a newer one. The maple is cut and slabbed up in the woods and sold for music wood--guitars. Music wood pays well....very well. When you see bits of bark and moss hacked off the larger maples, you can bet that somebody's been looking for a music wood tree to steal.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 6, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> Is that a county ordinance or a state ordinance? Reason I ask is I get wood permits from FS and BLM all the time and I don't need any kind of trip permit. No one here (Douglas County) has ever been prosecuted for hauling wood either, unless they were stealing 'real' timber off federal or state lands (logs in excess of 8'.)



Those wood permits are transportation permits. They are saying where you got the wood from and that you have permission to take it.

It is an Oregon state law. Here are the various sections...

Oregon Revised Statutes (available online)...

164.813 Unlawful cutting and transport of special forest products.
164.825 Cutting and transport of coniferous trees without permit or bill of sale.
164.845 Arrest, summons for cutting or transport of trees or special forest products; effect of failure to appear.
164.855 Seizure of trees or special forest products cut or transported in violation of ORS 164.813 or 164.825.

Note: Various laws pertain to the transportation of; hay, bear grass, boughs, branches, ferns, bark and needles of the Pacific yew, Cascara bark, Cedar salvage, evergreen foliage and shrubs, ornamental trees and shrubs, round or split posts, poles, pickets, stakes or rails, shake boards, shake-bolts, shingle bolts, mushrooms, and forest plant parts used in floral arrangements and decorations.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 6, 2009)

Following is the basic information you need to transport wood. If you have a ranch which is your property and are transporting wood to your house, you would just fill out the following and sign it yourself, then you would be legal!

And then the only other thing is if your ranch is in Eugene and your home in Salem, but the cops stop you with a load of wood in the Portland area, and you give them a permit from your property in Eugene, you would have some explaining to do!


Wood (and firewood) Transportation Permit

[Please print] Date issued:__________________________ 

Date Expires:_________________________

Description of wood (mixed, fir, maple, oak, etc.):_____________________________________________

Amount of wood being transported:___________________ 

License plate of vehicle:__________________

Contact information of person granting permit:

Name:_____________________________________________________________________________

Address:___________________________________________________________________________

City:_____________________________ State:____________

Area code and phone number:__________________________________________________________

Location Wood From: 

Address or legal description:__________________________________________________

City:_____________________________ State:____________

Contact information of person transporting wood:

Name:_____________________________________________________________________________

Address:___________________________________________________________________________

City:_____________________________ State:____________

Area code and phone number:__________________________


_________________________________
Signature of person granting permit	

_________________________________
Signature of person transporting wood


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## cuznguido (Dec 6, 2009)

redprospector said:


> In New Mexico we have the same *STUPID* law about having a permit to transport "woody products". I can't legally haul a 2x4 without the receipt, or a permit. Not only can they give you a ticket here, they will confiscate your load. The only time I was on the carpet for it, I had a load of oak (hard to come by here). They made me unload it in the FS yard. I had to have the land owner come to court to prove my innocence. The judge found me not guilty, but some how my load of oak was gone when I went to get it the next day.
> Talk about a Police State, what ever happened to assumed innocent untill proved guilty. This law says you have to carry proof of your innocence at all times.
> 
> Andy



Thieves "steal", police "confiscate".


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## slowp (Dec 6, 2009)

cuznguido said:


> Thieves "steal", police "confiscate".



Woods cops confiscate for a darn good reason. The main one, not having a firewood permit. Other games played by "innocents" using the same tag over and over, only putting one tag when more are required, not punching out the dates, cutting out of logging decks, etc. It seems to be one big game with some folks. A game that makes it harder on legal folks.


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## Ductape (Dec 6, 2009)

Billy_Bob said:


> Following is the basic information you need to transport wood. If you have a ranch which is your property and are transporting wood to your house, you would just fill out the following and sign it yourself, then you would be legal!
> 
> And then the only other thing is if your ranch is in Eugene and your home in Salem, but the cops stop you with a load of wood in the Portland area, and you give them a permit from your property in Eugene, you would have some explaining to do!
> 
> ...




What in the hell is this crap ??? Are you telling me that (if i lived out there) if my friend tells me to come get a tree that fell in his yard, i'd need some stupid permit ?????? You gotta be kiddin me.


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## redprospector (Dec 6, 2009)

Ductape said:


> What in the hell is this crap ??? Are you telling me that (if i lived out there) if my friend tells me to come get a tree that fell in his yard, i'd need some stupid permit ?????? You gotta be kiddin me.



Yep, that is exactly what it means.

Andy


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## Taxmantoo (Dec 6, 2009)

cuznguido said:


> Thieves "steal", police "confiscate".



I'd send them a bill for the wood. They took responsibility for it, then they 'lost' it, let them pay for it. Complain to your legislator and/or prosecuting authority if they refuse to pay. At the very least, you'll spread your 'joy' around to people who might be able to spread some unhappiness onto the badge toting douche who stole your wood.


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## Gologit (Dec 6, 2009)

Ductape said:


> What in the hell is this crap ??? Are you telling me that (if i lived out there) if my friend tells me to come get a tree that fell in his yard, i'd need some stupid permit ?????? You gotta be kiddin me.



Yup...that's the way it is. It's not really meant for somebody scavenging a junk tree out of a friend's yard...nobody get's too upset about that.

But if you own timber land and theft is a problem, and it always is, that little form will help you keep track of what's going on. It takes maybe five minutes to fill out...no big deal.

It's not so much the firewood resource itself that the form helps us track, it's also a good record of who was on our property, where, and when. Vandalism and timber theft seem to go hand in hand and if we know all the particulars it helps us protect ourselves. I'd like to trade my annual salary for what we spend every year replacing gates, water bars, signs, survey markers,etc. A lot of areas are closed to firewood gathering...and for good reason.

So, if you want wood off of our ground, be prepared for a little paperwork...just enough to help us keep the wood available to you.


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## redprospector (Dec 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> Woods cops confiscate for a darn good reason. The main one, not having a firewood permit. Other games played by "innocents" using the same tag over and over, only putting one tag when more are required, not punching out the dates, cutting out of logging decks, etc. It seems to be one big game with some folks. A game that makes it harder on legal folks.



Slowp, I have a healthy respect for you, and your opinion most of the time. But this is one of those times when I just can't agree with you.
The Constitution of the United States of America guarantees us that we are to be assumed innocent, until proven guilty. I for one don't want to give up that right (or any other right) to make some "woods cops" job easier.
Aside from that; They confiscated *my* oak, and when I was found not guilty I didn't get it back. What is right about that? I'm sure someone enjoyed the fruits of my labor though.
I can understand permits for wood from FS land, and if someone is fudging on the amount of wood they get in some way, punish them. But when does the wood become mine? If I have a land owner permit from a private land thinning job, that permit gets it from their property to mine. Once I get it there, and process it into firewood or lumber that first permit is no good anymore. Now I have to get another permit to move *my* wood to another location. Then if that person needs to move the wood again they need another permit.
Call it whatever you want, I call it bureaucratic BS.

Andy


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## slowp (Dec 6, 2009)

Some history. 

Originally, firewood permits on FS land were required, but free. The purpose of the permit was to make sure you knew the rules, cut what and where you were supposed to, and your saw was checked to make sure it had a spark arrester.

Enter the Reagan years. Firewood was to be charged for, except for certain areas.

Enter the Clinton years. The Northwest Forest Plan kicked in. Firewood rules 
in this area now have become more complicated than fishing rules. 

I don't like it, but it is the law.

Oh, and your wood is really held for you and given back if found innocent here. I see the piles. If it goes the other way, the wood goes up for public bidding. Our cops are pretty good.


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## redprospector (Dec 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> Some history.
> 
> Originally, firewood permits on FS land were required, but free. The purpose of the permit was to make sure you knew the rules, cut what and where you were supposed to, and your saw was checked to make sure it had a spark arrester.
> 
> ...



Yep, like I said, I understand permits for FS. I just don't understand the rest of it. It may be called a law, but if it is in conflict with the Constitution it is no law at all. I guess that makes me rebellious. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Dec 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> Oh, and your wood is really held for you and given back if found innocent here. I see the piles. If it goes the other way, the wood goes up for public bidding. Our cops are pretty good.



Hahaha, I see the piles of Pine here. But if something better comes in it dosen't last long.

Andy


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## slowp (Dec 7, 2009)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha, I see the piles of Pine here. But if something better comes in it dosen't last long.
> 
> Andy



Then make some noise. We joke about burning it, but we don't. Believe me there's some darn nice wood gets piled up here and sits for quite a while. 
We sold a one ton truck load recently. It was old growth doug-fir. Local folks helped solve that case. The guys pled guilty.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 7, 2009)

redprospector said:


> ...The Constitution of the United States of America guarantees us that we are to be assumed innocent, until proven guilty...



That is the way it should be and the way many people think things are, but not reality.

Prosecutors are supposed to drop cases if they learn that the accused is innocent, but this does not happen to my knowledge.

Actually when people are innocent, lawyers many times will advise their clients to make a deal with the prosecutor and plead guilty to some lesser charge. And not try to fight it. The lawyers know how "the system" works!

The thing which really shows how our "justice system" works is rape cases along with the later use of DNA testing to review these cases. Many people who were serving time in prison for rape were later proved to be innocent by DNA testing! (Which was not available when the crime occurred.) Here is the shocking reality of this...
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/342.php

Then even today, the "justice system" will sometimes not allow accused people to be DNA tested! Why? I have no idea. I guess they are not in the business of finding the truth?

(I like to read non-fiction books (real world stuff) and like books written by lawyers. They spend all day writing, so are quite good at it, and can write some pretty interesting books!)


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## redprospector (Dec 7, 2009)

Yep, I'm well aware of how things are, and I do make noise when it's required............A lot of noise. When things aren't right people need to rear up on their hind legs and make a stand for what is right, never compromising.
Too many just accept it as the way it is. I just can't do that.
I think the FS is a lot better here now, my problem occured over 15 years ago. I know most of them on a first name basis, and they don't bother me much. But the so called law is still on the books, so being left alone isn't good enough for me. Things could change quick with a change in management, or administration. 

You've got to stand for something!!

Andy


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