# Wildland fire gear



## Greystoke (Apr 7, 2013)

Hey folks, I am going on fires this Summer as an independent contractor so I need my own gear. Since it is so spendy new, I was wondering if any of youins had some used that you would part with. JacobJ said he might be able to help me out with the fire shelter, but I still need two pairs of nomex pants...medium waist, hopefully adjustable, and a fire approved hard hat (some of them Nazi dispatch inspectors won't let me wear my mac T. Anyhow, hope to find a decent deal but I will buy new if I have to. Thanks!


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## madhatte (Apr 7, 2013)

I have seen some screamin' deals on the 'Bay. If you can, get the Western Shelter Systems pants, "Advance" I think it is called, 60% kevlar/40% polyaramid -- tough as nails. You won't need to replace it for a LONG time. Helmet -- pretty sure any 6-point Bullard manufactured in the last 5 years will do but I haven't checked the current NFPA 1977 to know the exact rules. I do know that the "5 years" bit will get you shot down by an inspector. It'll be a stamp under the brim in the shape of a clock, showing the year and month of manufacture.


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## forestryworks (Apr 7, 2013)

Might could loan you my True North radio (single) harness if you need. 

But, I gotta wait and see how much burning we are doing this summer to see if I can part with it. Did 800 acres last week...

Fire gear ain't cheap, but it's still cheaper than a trip to a burn center.


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## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2013)

Greystoke said:


> Hey folks, I am going on fires this Summer as an independent contractor so I need my own gear. Since it is so spendy new, I was wondering if any of youins had some used that you would part with. JacobJ said he might be able to help me out with the fire shelter, but I still need two pairs of nomex pants...medium waist, hopefully adjustable, and a fire approved hard hat (some of them Nazi dispatch inspectors won't let me wear my mac T. Anyhow, hope to find a decent deal but I will buy new if I have to. Thanks!



JJ didn't have no pants or shirts eh?


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## madhatte (Apr 7, 2013)

Metals406 said:


> JJ didn't have no pants or shirts eh?



I reckon he's in the same boat I'm in -- that stuff is Gov't property and has to stay put, even if it's not being used.


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## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2013)

madhatte said:


> I reckon he's in the same boat I'm in -- that stuff is Gov't property and has to stay put, even if it's not being used.



Too true. . . Or thrown in a tank trap and smashed with a D8 before being buried -- and stuff. :msp_mellow:


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## Rounder (Apr 7, 2013)

I'll take a look, I think I have a Circus approved hard hat that I wouldn't be caught dead in...Might be heading your way tomorrow anyways.


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## madhatte (Apr 7, 2013)

Metals406 said:


> Too true. . . Or thrown in a tank trap and smashed with a D8 before being buried -- and stuff. :msp_mellow:



Got a box of stuff I'm supposed to destroy before disposing of. Nomex with paint on it, shelters with holes abraded through the pouch, etc -- those things are not safe for use at all, but I still have to destroy it. Gov't is weird. We've also got some OOOOOOLLLLLDDD Nomex (like mfg dates in the 80's) which is not full of holes but doesn't have ankle stays or anything. There is no "expiration" date for that stuff, so we CAN'T get rid of it except through "Channels". Who's got time for the extra paperwork? So it sits.


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## squirrel101 (Apr 7, 2013)

Still got mine but it's...well let's see, hard hat manufacture date 1999. Old generation shelter in the yellow case. I'd guess those are too old to still be on the fire line. And I figured I'd keep the Nomex as a souvenir. :smile2: The Nomex pants are about 2000 vintage with the BDU style pockets but not the ankle straps I've seen on more recent ones. I haven't kept up, has the design changed and are those even still good to use anymore?


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## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Got a box of stuff I'm supposed to destroy before disposing of. Nomex with paint on it, shelters with holes abraded through the pouch, etc -- those things are not safe for use at all, but I still have to destroy it. Gov't is weird. We've also got some OOOOOOLLLLLDDD Nomex (like mfg dates in the 80's) which is not full of holes but doesn't have ankle stays or anything. There is no "expiration" date for that stuff, so we CAN'T get rid of it except through "Channels". Who's got time for the extra paperwork? So it sits.



Which makes complete sense.  LOL

My dad saw some serious destruction of quality stuff in the late 70's and early 80's by the FS. All of which could have been auctioned, but would have added to the budget, which would have cut the next years budget due to surplus, and you can't have surplus, because you need the same size budget. . . Like watching two retards fighting over an ice cream cone at Baskin Robbins.


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## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2013)

Rounder said:


> I'll take a look, I think I have a Circus approved hard hat that I wouldn't be caught dead in...Might be heading your way tomorrow anyways.



How come you ain't headed my way tomorrow? :msp_sneaky:

That Cody guy always gets the attention.


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## 2dogs (Apr 7, 2013)

I'll see what I have. I have mostly short and fat sizes, not medium. Plus Cody is a medium. Could you post a list of your exact needs? I have lots of extra underwear, you just need to wash them. Maybe twice.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 7, 2013)

madhatte said:


> I reckon he's in the same boat I'm in -- that stuff is Gov't property and has to stay put, even if it's not being used.



I have some personal gear left over from when I took a five year break from government jobs and worked exclusively as a log cutting contractor, including doing fires as a faller. So I can help Cody with that stuff. I have a couple pairs of pants from that time that might fit Cody but they're the old-school "slash" pocket style and I don't know if they're legal anymore. I know the hardhat standard has been updated and now you cannot wear a hat on the line that's older than five years under any circumstances, not that most people are going to check (safety officer types.) I do have a shelter for him and I have some hardhats from the late 90's but like I said, they'll never pass inspection. In fact, they're cracking down on the shirts too and those thin, old-school shirts are being tossed.


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## Cfaller (Apr 7, 2013)

I take it you are going out as a faller. So your chaps will have to meet the FS standard. The new chap spec is 6170-4f and they come with the govt. spec price. :msp_angry:


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## forestryworks (Apr 7, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> those thin, old-school shirts are being tossed



I've seen those. Not much radiant heat protection if you ask me. The latest Crew Boss shirt I got is nice and thick.


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## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2013)

I offered him mah shirt I wove from TP and red fir needles. . . He said "No thanks." :msp_sneaky:

Picky sum beech. :msp_wink:


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## 2dogs (Apr 7, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> I have some personal gear left over from when I took a five year break from government jobs and worked exclusively as a log cutting contractor, including doing fires as a faller. So I can help Cody with that stuff. I have a couple pairs of pants from that time that might fit Cody but they're the old-school "slash" pocket style and I don't know if they're legal anymore. I know the hardhat standard has been updated and now you cannot wear a hat on the line that's older than five years under any circumstances, not that most people are going to check (safety officer types.) I do have a shelter for him and I have some hardhats from the late 90's but like I said, they'll never pass inspection. In fact, they're cracking down on the shirts too and those thin, old-school shirts are being tossed.



Can you provide a link on the shirt specs?

Here in Cali there is a current debate within Cal Fire as to whether gear has to meet Cal-OSHA specs or Cal Fire specs. For years we have been able to wear Cal-Osha approved pants, those are the same pants, single layer, that Fed employees wear. Some Cal Fire people have sworn to throw everyone off the fire who is not dressed exactly like a Cal Fire employee. As I noted in the fire thread we were warned that CHP will be stopping water tenders, on fires, on public roads and weighing them and looking for tank balls.

Muffler mods, no chain brake, gasoline not in proper containers and carried on the truck properly, all have been mentioned as citeable offenses and will get the contractor thrown off the fire. BTW Cal Fire will not advise the contractor ahead of time. Oh and no food, no drinking water, no saw mix, and diesel is around $6.00 per gallon this year.


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## Rounder (Apr 7, 2013)

Might give Axemen out at the Wye a call....They keep up to date on all the fire ####, usually pretty reasonable on price.


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## Metals406 (Apr 7, 2013)

2dogs said:


> Can you provide a link on the shirt specs?
> 
> Here in Cali there is a current debate within Cal Fire as to whether gear has to meet Cal-OSHA specs or Cal Fire specs. For years we have been able to wear Cal-Osha approved pants, those are the same pants, single layer, that Fed employees wear. Some Cal Fire people have sworn to throw everyone off the fire who is not dressed exactly like a Cal Fire employee. As I noted in the fire thread we were warned that CHP will be stopping water tenders, on fires, on public roads and weighing them and looking for tank balls.
> 
> Muffler mods, no chain brake, gasoline not in proper containers and carried on the truck properly, all have been mentioned as citeable offenses and will get the contractor thrown off the fire. BTW Cal Fire will not advise the contractor ahead of time. Oh and no food, no drinking water, no saw mix, and diesel is around $6.00 per gallon this year.



Totally sounds worth the trouble to stop fires from eating the coast up.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 7, 2013)

Cfaller said:


> I take it you are going out as a faller. So your chaps will have to meet the FS standard. The new chap spec is 6170-4f and they come with the govt. spec price. :msp_angry:



Yep- and they're getting real stringent on the chaps standards. It's almost to a point where you have to have a brand new pair every season. 



forestryworks said:


> I've seen those. Not much radiant heat protection if you ask me. The latest Crew Boss shirt I got is nice and thick.



Yeah the National Fire crew boss shirts are real thick. I like those old-school thin shirts, very comfortable in the heat but there's little protection there.


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## 2dogs (Apr 7, 2013)

Metals406 said:


> Totally sounds worth the trouble to stop fires from eating the coast up.



Everyone is hoping things will be better than what I posted here but all of these things came down from official Cal Fire sources. The union is really strong and the source of many of the problems. They want more Cal Fire employees and fewer contractors while the rest of the world is going the other way. In addition Cal Fire firefighters and officers are getting younger and they have no appreciation for experience really want to reinvent the wheel.


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## 2dogs (Apr 7, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> Yeah the National Fire crew boss shirts are real thick. I like those old-school thin shirts, very comfortable in the heat but there's little protection there.



Maybe but you guys know that a loose fit and air space is where the protection really comes from.


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## madhatte (Apr 7, 2013)

2dogs said:


> Maybe but you guys know that a loose fit and air space is where the protection really comes from.



Agreed. Plus, all that time you're NOT getting directly exposed to radiant heat, you ARE subject to heat stress.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 7, 2013)

2dogs said:


> Maybe but you guys know that a loose fit and air space is where the protection really comes from.





madhatte said:


> Agreed. Plus, all that time you're NOT getting directly exposed to radiant heat, you ARE subject to heat stress.



Yep, and my thing is, you should be taking measures ahead of time to avoid flame contact or intense radiant heat.


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## madhatte (Apr 8, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> you should be taking measures ahead of time to avoid flame contact or intense radiant heat.



Funny how that common-sense type of reasoning is conspicuously absent from most training. It seems that "worst-case" is the only scenario worth mentioning. I guess we're just supposed to figure out the rest on our own.


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## slowp (Apr 8, 2013)

I'd be glad to send you my Bullard, but it is over 5 years old and would need a new liner plus it has marking paint all over it. It has girl cooties on it. I lost the helicopter chin strap too. 

The hat still flexes and was kept out of the sun except in August when the sun appears. 

If you want to risk it, PM me. 

My other stuff was out of date and I gave it back. It was also round people sized.


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## forestryworks (Apr 8, 2013)

How do the pants fit compared to blue jeans? Go with normal size? 

I've finally got money set aside for a pair. We've got 9 more burns scheduled where I work, they'll more than pay for themselves after that.


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## 2dogs (Apr 8, 2013)

forestryworks said:


> How do the pants fit compared to blue jeans? Go with normal size?
> 
> I've finally got money set aside for a pair. We've got 9 more burns scheduled where I work, they'll more than pay for themselves after that.



My Kevlar/Nomex pants fit fine in the waist but were longer than I expected. I can't remember the brand off hand.


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## forestryworks (Apr 10, 2013)

For others who are in the market for wildland gear, specifically pants, click here to read a write up and see a comparison chart on the different fabrics used.


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## dhskier2 (Apr 10, 2013)

sorry, but I don't have any gear in your size. If you do end up purchasing some stuff, I have only seen (not used/worn) gear from _Coaxsher_ and it appears to be quality! I don't know if its worth the extra benjamins over some other lines of gear (true north, etc.)- but their stuff appears solid.

I've heard that the FS spec'd chaps can be hard to come by- like only available through GSA. That might not be the case, but if it is, try and connect with a local volunteer FD (access to GSA) and have someone make the purchase for you. Once you're a contractor, do you have the authorization to purchase via GSA?
NEVERMIND- was looking up the catalog to post the link 2013 Wildland Fire Equipment Catalog . "It is also available to other nonfederal organizations operating under written agreements with the U.S. Forest Service."



Metals406 said:


> ...serious destruction of quality stuff ... All of which could have been auctioned, but would have added to the budget, which would have cut the next years budget due to surplus, and you can't have surplus, because you need the same size budget



I heard from a rather reliable source that during the Iraq war, transatlantic carriers were dumping damaged (not destroyed) US Military equipment (helo's, humvees, tanks, etc.) into the ocean for similar reasons- not to mess with the budgets bottom line. Apparently it was equipment that was repairable/had usable parts.


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## 2dogs (Apr 10, 2013)

dhskier2 said:


> sorry, but I don't have any gear in your size. If you do end up purchasing some stuff, I have only seen (not used/worn) gear from _Coaxsher_ and it appears to be quality! I don't know if its worth the extra benjamins over some other lines of gear (true north, etc.)- but their stuff appears solid.
> 
> I've heard that the FS spec'd chaps can be hard to come by- like only available through GSA. That might not be the case, but if it is, try and connect with a local volunteer FD (access to GSA) and have someone make the purchase for you. Once you're a contractor, do you have the authorization to purchase via GSA?
> NEVERMIND- was looking up the catalog to post the link 2013 Wildland Fire Equipment Catalog . "It is also available to other nonfederal organizations operating under written agreements with the U.S. Forest Service."



Here is a link to chaps. These are the ones I have.PGI 5-Ply Para-Aramid Chain Saw Chaps


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## RandyMac (Apr 10, 2013)

I gotta baked potato bag somewhere, never used, but probably outdated.


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## 2dogs (Apr 11, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> I gotta baked potato bag somewhere, never used, but probably outdated.



The current generation fire shelters come in a blue case. And, they are VERY expensive.


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## RandyMac (Apr 11, 2013)

2dogs said:


> The current generation fire shelters come in a blue case. And, they are VERY expensive.



This has orange canvas.


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## 2dogs (Apr 11, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> This has orange canvas.



Really? Those first gen fire shelters are collector's items now. Nice to hang on the wall. Well if you have walls covered with junk mine have.


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## dhskier2 (Apr 11, 2013)

2dogs said:


> The current generation fire shelters come in a blue case. And, they are VERY expensive.



Aren't they in the neighborhood of $3-400 bucks?


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## forestryworks (Apr 11, 2013)

dhskier2 said:


> Aren't they in the neighborhood of $3-400 bucks?



Closer to $500 at most online dealers.


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## RandyMac (Apr 11, 2013)

2dogs said:


> Really? Those first gen fire shelters are collector's items now. Nice to hang on the wall. Well if you have walls covered with junk mine have.



If I run across it, it is your's.


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## 2dogs (Apr 11, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> If I run across it, it is your's.



Thanks.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 11, 2013)

Sorta loosely connected, I've been looking for a couple of them Indian fire pump back back squirt gun deals, Too cheap to buy em new, anybody got one or two they'd be willing to get rid of cheap? Vinyl, steel, or plastic cans are ok by me.


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