# Wood Stove vs. Add on Wood Furnace



## Troy G (Jan 27, 2009)

I have been reading through the archives and need to ask this question to people who are more in the know than I.

I currently have a Regency 2400 wood stove installed in my basement. Wifey and I spend most of our time in the basement as that is where my office is and that is where the TV is.

The problem is that the down stairs is quite warm and the upstairs is not quite warm enough. I have our programmable thermostat on the gas furnace set at 21 degrees Celsius and it usually cuts in at around 4:00 am if I load the stove at 11:00 when I go to bed. This is with poplar wood and House is 1200 sq/ft.

I started researching add on wood furnaces and thought this would be the answer to my problems of getting wood heat upstairs. Upon researching I am seeing that some people are saying that wood stoves are more efficient and use less wood. Likely not an apple to apple comparison given many unknown variables. I do not want to spend a bunch of money to put in a ad on wood furnace only to be taking a step backwards and have to use even more wood. Also been reading that cutting vents in the ceiling is not really worth while. I was going to try and get some small fans and mount them on the ceiling and get the air moving towards the up the stairs. 

Here is a picture of the stove and hearth area.


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## coog (Jan 27, 2009)

Troy, I don't know what your budget is, or how good your firewood supply is, but a furnace for whole house heating is the best way to heat multiple levels.My friend just replaced an older wood furnace with a gas/wood combo and had a hard time keeping the place below 90 degrees(F, in MN)Seems 2or 3 logs is all it needs to keep it in the 70's.I have an old brick house with a woodstove.I love it, but a furnace would do a better job with all the wood I burn.

p.s cutting vents in the flooring/ceiling is against building codes in the U.S.Creates a fire path.


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## aandabooks (Jan 27, 2009)

A wood furnace is definately going to consume more wood than a stand alone wood stove. The benefit is that they are generally not in a living area and keep the mess contained to a basement area.

The woodstove radiates heat into a living area and also brings the mess with it. 

The more that you want the whole house heated with an evenness to the heat, the more you are generally going to consume in wood. Kind of like the people on here that have the OWBs. The whole house gets heated evenly, the mess stays outside but the tradeoff is the amount of wood consumed during a heating season.

My FIL used to have a woodburner in the livingroom and when we would go over to his house I'd wear a sweatshirt over a tee shirt. If I was in the livingroom, tee shirt only. Once I moved to an outlying room, then it was time to put the sweatshirt on. Just on the one level of the old farmhouse there could be a 15 degree difference.


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## Troy G (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for the responses thus far. I am not opposed to working harder to have even heat in the house.

I have access to wood that is not the issue.

So the heat rating of the add on wood furnaces seem to be quite accurate with the heat and square feet ratings? When I bought my wood stove I should have bought the biggest one I could. I am reading that taking this mindset with a add on furnace is going to make things quite roasty toasty. I am in Saskatchewan Canada and we get cold weather coupled with wind.

As far as budget goes I am looking at this as an investment that will eventually pay for itself in gas savings.


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## chainsawaddict (Jan 27, 2009)

Where is your furnace return?

it is way easier to get heat upstairs than downstairs.


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## sesmith (Jan 27, 2009)

We also have a stove in the cellar and have never been able to get a constant temp throughout the house...we've just lowered our expectations and enjoyed not paying for much oil. Here's what I've found that helps. I have a forced air furnace in the cellar and leave the blower door open to allow cold air return from upstairs. This helps a lot with the heat flow (but I can't use the furnace without shutting the door). I stacked a cinder block wall on either side of the stove, the length and height of the stove (my cellar doesn't look as good as yours). The 1st course is laid sideways to allow airflow under the walls. The walls act as more thermal mass for the stove. They also prevent much of the heat from being radiated out the stone cellar walls and convert much of the radiant heat to convection. I also have my furnace set way lower than you do...58 F or 15 Canadian  My upstairs temp fluctuates between 64 and 72 but usually is around 67-68 F. I usually only kick on the furnace to bring the temp back up if it starts the day at 64 or it's managed to get that cold when we come home from work. A furnace would help you control your house temp better, but even with the setup you have, I'm sure you're using your gas furnace way less than you would without the stove.


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## Techstuf (Jan 27, 2009)

Try a small fan mounted to the ceiling of the stairway to the main level. I heat my upper two levels from my basement just fine. My basement averages around 90 degrees while the main level is 80. Upper story usually sits between 65-70 degrees. Heck, I've even opened the door to my attic to melt the snow off the roof with my wood stove on occasion.

Before shelling out for an expensive wood furnace and associative electric costs, consider tweaking your convection loop with a small fan, perhaps a thermostatically controlled unit that will kick off at the desired temp.


TS


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## skid row (Jan 28, 2009)

I have an add on wood furnace and it pretty much runs 24/7 november thru march. The entire house is heated well no matter how cold it gets outside. If you go that route make sure you connect it to your cold air return.


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## 046 (Jan 28, 2009)

as you already know, radiated heat has a greater affect on local areas. 

what you need is a Large quiet fan moving hot air upstairs. moving heat with air requires Large CFM (cubic ft per min). look at how large your gas heater's ducts are. 

since heat naturally rises, moving heat upwards is not as difficult as moving heat in a single level house. 



Techstuf said:


> Try a small fan mounted to the ceiling of the stairway to the main level. I heat my upper two levels from my basement just fine. My basement averages around 90 degrees while the main level is 80. Upper story usually sits between 65-70 degrees. Heck, I've even opened the door to my attic to melt the snow off the roof with my wood stove on occasion.
> 
> Before shelling out for an expensive wood furnace and associative electric costs, consider tweaking your convection loop with a small fan, perhaps a thermostatically controlled unit that will kick off at the desired temp.
> 
> ...


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## Troy G (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. I am going to try and exhaust all possibilities trying to get the hot air on the ceiling in the downstairs level going up.

The idea would be to get the hot air going into the cold air return of the ducting for the furnace?


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## Zodiac45 (Jan 28, 2009)

Troy G said:


> Thanks for the responses thus far. I am not opposed to working harder to have even heat in the house.
> 
> I have access to wood that is not the issue.
> 
> ...



Possibly a bigger stove and some floor registers(or some way too move air) would help the upstairs. My old house on the coast of Maine (200+yrs old) has registers in the floors in strategic places that can be opened or closed. They help. This would be the cheapest way out. A tied in add on wood furnace is more money and will use more wood too.


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## Troy G (Jan 28, 2009)

Is there such a thing as Wood Burning Apparatus Acquiring Disorder, very similar to the CAD disorder many suffer from on this fine forum?

I am going to try and make what I have work right now, that way I can buy that Timberwolf log splitter and Stihl MS 660 that keep calling to me. 

I thought I was burning wood to save money?


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## wdchuck (Jan 28, 2009)

Troy G said:


> Is there such a thing as Wood Burning Apparatus Acquiring Disorder, very similar to the CAD disorder many suffer from on this fine forum?
> 
> I am going to try and make what I have work right now, that way I can buy that Timberwolf log splitter and Stihl MS 660 that keep calling to me.
> 
> I thought I was burning wood to save money? :dizzy:



You will save money, but not if you stick around here much longer.


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## David Wayne (Jan 28, 2009)

It's not so much about the money you save as it is about what you have after you spent it.
Heating oil= 0
Equipment= more cool toys.


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## IndyIan (Jan 28, 2009)

Hi Troy,
I have the same woodstove as you, and I think its fine but we have to run ours fairly hot to heat our house with it. 500F on the top is good for -5 to 0C but when we get -20 we crank it up running 700-800F for an hour or two at a time, let it drop to 550ish and throw a few more sticks in getting it back up to 700-800F.
We get very little creosote in the chimney, like half a liter when I clean it out in spring. But if you have been burning cooler then you should clean your chimney before you go to the higher temps. 
Also don't aim for the higher temps with a half full stove, as you need to leave the intake wide open, pulling in lots of cold air from somewhere in your house. Load it full, run near wide open till you hit 700-800F then damp it to 1/4 open or so it maintains 700F+, you'll see the secondary air tubes take over and not as much air is being pulled through the stove. 
I'm burning only hardwoods, oak, maple, beech, some ironwood so you might have to do things a bit different with poplar. 
I think if you can get a cold air return near your stove and leave the furnace fan on you should be good to heat the house.
Ian


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## Troy G (Jan 28, 2009)

David Wayne said:


> It's not so much about the money you save as it is about what you have after you spent it.
> Heating oil= 0
> Equipment= more cool toys.



The cool toys need to go on the chopping block as the wife and I are expecting our first child in late July or early August. I have a gun safe full of long range hunting rigs, long range bench guns, NRA silhouette guns, and high end optics.

I may be able to convince the wife that I need a Timberwolf and a 660 because she will not be able to help me with the wood preparation all Spring or Summer. 

"The quicker I get done with the wood cutting, splitting, and stacking, the sooner I can wait on you hand and foot, HONEY!" "My Stihl equipment are tools not toys, I get no enjoyment out of using the gear, I love you!"


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## Troy G (Jan 28, 2009)

Ian,

In the three years I have used the stove, I have experiences no creosote in the chimney. Every fall when I go to clean the chimney it is a couple of passes with a Nylon brush and the stainless is clean. I understand creosote to be a black, hard, tarry build up, my chimney usually just has a little grey soot that could probably be cleaned by runnning some high pressure air up the pipe.

I burn the stove so that there is always secondary combustion happening. I always burn the fire hot to start and then slowly start to choke it down just so that the flame is still dancing off the wood. The first year I was always out side looking to see if the chimney was smoking. It took awhile to learn how to burn wodd as it is an art. Now I just try and keep things as consistant as possible as my wood species rarely changes so my burn characteristics are repeatable.


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## Techstuf (Jan 28, 2009)

Troy, if you don't already, it's also *absolutely imperative* that you feed that stove outside air. If not, it will be sucking cold air from every crack and crevice upstairs and you'll barely break even. Mine is in the basement and I feed it from the dryer vent via a 4" aluminum feed duct which terminates just above the stove's door such that when the door is opened, the air also serves to keep the smoke from entering the room. A draft curtain coming down to feed the stove catches the smoke and causes it to turn down and back into the stove, mixing with the incoming air. 

Also, if you wish to vent the dryer inside, capturing heat while giving off needed humidity during burning season, I highly recommend a high efficiency washer which spins the clothes at much higher RPMs. Your clothes will come out of the washer twice as dry as the old models. Also your dryer will require much less electricity and put out just the right amount of needed humidity. I just use the wife's old pantyhose over the end to catch the lint and make sure it is aimed properly, away from metal surfaces and out into the room.

Regards,


TS


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## CrappieKeith (Jan 28, 2009)

There's a big difference between a stove and a furnace.
Your comment about stoves being more efficient is not entirely correct.
Here's 5 things to look for.
1.Amounts of heat exchanger surface area.
2.Gasification or Cadalitic reburn.
3.Thermal Mass or firebrick...dense bricks like 3200 degrees
4.Burn rate cycling via a thermostat.
5.Barometric draft regulators mounted in the flue alliviating draft speeds.

With these option working for you, the wood consumption is minimal,then duct the furnace to it to heat your whole home.
I have a Yukon that does these things and I have been on the same 100 gallon propane tank for the last 10 years.It's still half full.
I heat 1400 s/f and need about 1/2 cord of hardwood a month with temps that average 5 above to 10 below in the winter.I keep my home at 73 -75 degrees.


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## Techstuf (Jan 28, 2009)

> I heat 1400 s/f and need about 1/2 cord of hardwood a month with temps that average 5 above to 10 below in the winter.I keep my home at 73 -75 degrees.




1/2 cord a month....WoW, I'll have what he's having! I'm heating double the sq. footage and burning just over a cord a month. I'd love to get away with burning 2 cords a season!


Is your home insulated with snow to the roof top or what?


TS


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## 046 (Jan 28, 2009)

wow... that's some excellent performance!!!

what model Yukon are you using?



CrappieKeith said:


> There's a big difference between a stove and a furnace.
> Your comment about stoves being more efficient is not entirely correct.
> Here's 5 things to look for.
> 1.Amounts of heat exchanger surface area.
> ...


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## logbutcher (Jan 28, 2009)

IF you decide to go with a wood furnace, look at hearthNet's forum on boilers. They aren't cheap but work well plugged into a hot water system in place. Some in our area use the Tarm furnaces....high end stuff.

We prefer the cost, efficiency, and localized warmth of our stand alone wood stoves. Yes, there's some mess, and the arm carrying, but it gets routine and simple. If you spend time upstairs, how about another wood stove ?

Basement wood stoves don't do a good job heating except for the close up radiant heat. Remember that the basement is basically a concrete or stone massunderground. Without heavy insulation in and out, that stove is heating an enormous mass and the outside earth ! Little of that goes "up".
Grates or floor opening could help very little, and you increase fire danger like the man said.


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## Techstuf (Jan 28, 2009)

> No outdoor air supply is needed. It's a dying myth!



Yeah, it's common knowledge by now that all homes produce their own oxygen magically from inside the house.

 


If one's home is drafty as hell, then I'd be forced to agree with treeco. If not, then the benefits are obvious.



TS


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## powerstroke73L (Jan 28, 2009)

I went with the add-on because I didn't want the expense of building a hearth on the first floor and I wanted to make sure that I had plenty of usable heat. No matter what a radiant stove is going to primarily heat the room its in. You can try to move air with fans, but nothing is going to replace a system that is built to circulate air around your whole house. With the add-on I simply place the furnace in the basement right next to the oil burner, no worries about combustible surfaces save for the floor joists overhead. The chimney goes right out of an old basement window opening and up the side of the house. Also, 24/7 woodburning can get messy, but it's not a problem since the wood/bark/dirt is out of sight out of mind. 

I think once we add on to the house though (I'd like to do a dining room/family room off the back) I'll get a small radiant stove like an Englander 30 more for ambiance than anything else, but since crawlspace additions tend to be harder to heat it will definitely serve a purpose. The 28-3500 in the basement will always be the real workhorse though.



Techstuf said:


> Yeah, it's common knowledge by now that all homes produce their own oxygen magically from inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I second that. I had a big problem with my house because I had roof fans installed to combat mold in the attic. Because the soffit vents were undersized and the rest of the house was tight they were creating negative pressure in the house which wasn't a big deal during the summer when they were installed. Once I turned the oil burner on for the first time the whole damn house filled up with smoke because the house was sucking air down through the chimney! I fixed the soffit problem but now I'm very mindful of outside air. I'm installing a 10" round duct from the outside of the house to the "furnace room" that will dump out right next to the Englander furnace. Also, I'm plumbing the regular house return duct into the Englander's blower so I'm not taking air from the basement and moving it upstairs.


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## Techstuf (Jan 28, 2009)

> basement wood stoves don't do a good job heating except for the close up radiant heat. Remember that the basement is basically a concrete or stone massunderground. Without heavy insulation in and out, that stove is heating an enormous mass and the outside earth ! Little of that goes "up".




Thermal mass, such as a basement can pay great dividends if used correctly. It is well known that earth bermed homes are the most efficient to heat and cool. One's basement is an earth bermed heat sink that makes for great heat storage that is other wise lost on other levels of the home. Of course, the stove must be sized appropriately to accomplish this. Employing the thermal lag available in such a massive heat sink allows me to let my fires burn out completely, heating the home for hours afterward, extending my wood supply considerably. Of course, if I didn't wish to heat my basement at all, there are better choices, if much higher priced, to accomplish the task of heating only the upper levels.



TS


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## Techstuf (Jan 28, 2009)

> Myth!





> Myth!




If I am 'perpetuating a myth', then so are the engineers at many of the world's best stove manufacturers. I surmise that your idea of what constitutes a myth is less experiential and more of the borrowed variety, in this instance.

Effective control over where and how much outside air is allowed to enter the home to replace that which is both lost up the flue and consumed by it's occupants is not only a logical exercise, but incumbent upon the home owner in order to get a reliable level of comfort and enjoyment out of the experience of heating with wood.


Your heart's in the right place though, kudos


Regards,


TS


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## Troy G (Jan 28, 2009)

logbutcher said:


> If you spend time upstairs, how about another wood stove?



I was thinking another woodstove until I found out about Add on wood furnaces. Seems I would be spending close to the same amount of money on a wood stove to heat the upstairs as I would on an add on to heat the whole house. I was considering trying to sell my stove to help finance the wood furnace.

I would prefer to just keep one stove going and keep the mess in one place. The wife put her foot down and said no stove upstairs. The upstairs is the more formal of the two levels of the house.

I appreciate all the discussion and input.


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## jdew1920 (Jan 28, 2009)

Not all wood furnaces are created equal so I don't think you can make a blanket statement that you will go through more wood with a furnace vs a stove.

There is one "gasification" hot air furnace that I am aware of produced my Kuuma supposedly very efficient and clean burning - but not inexpensive. There is also 1 furnace that is EPA rated (same rating as high eff. wood stoves) called the Caddy produced by PSG (also sold as a USStove Co 1900/1950 Hotblast). Various other brands and models provide secondary combustion, secondary combustion chambers, etc.


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## logbutcher (Jan 28, 2009)

Troy G said:


> I was thinking another woodstove until I found out about Add on wood furnaces. Seems I would be spending close to the same amount of money on a wood stove to heat the upstairs as I would on an add on to heat the whole house. I was considering trying to sell my stove to help finance the wood furnace.
> 
> 
> The wood furnaces of any engineering system are more complex than wood stoves. They cost much more than a stand alone simple wood stove UNLESS you're 'plugging" into a hot water or forced air existing heating system.
> ...


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## CrappieKeith (Jan 29, 2009)

046 said:


> wow... that's some excellent performance!!!
> 
> what model Yukon are you using?


I have a BJ90, but that's when I burn seasoned white oak.I do go through a bit more when I get into that white ash.I try to save the oak for Jan.& Feb.as they are the coldests months up here.
I can also get my wood for 100-110$ a full cord so it's no biggy if a burn a tad more.
My main concern is that it stays fired up from 6:30 a.m. when I load it to when I get home by 5 p.m. then I'll put a piece or 2 in and then top it off around 9 p.m.then waking at 6:30 to a bed of coals.
I hate relighting....refiring ain't too bad at all.


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## sesmith (Jan 29, 2009)

Techstuf said:


> Yeah, it's common knowledge by now that all homes produce their own oxygen magically from inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta also disagree with you too. I think you'll have to look long and hard to find a house tight enough that it won't support a wood stove without outside air ducting. The problem has nothing to do with O2 content in the house. A wood stove does not selectively remove O2 from the air...it removes air from the house. The problem is that if the house is too tight and the various fans, combustion appliances etc are on at the same time, the house will get a negative pressure in it possibly causing back drafting of chimneys, allowing CO into the house. This is what kills. If you don't have any smoke back drafting into the house, and your CO detector does not show noticeable levels of CO with ALL your outside air blowers (ie, bathroom, kitchen) and All your combustion appliances (furnace, water heater, drier, wood stove, etc) on, you're good to go. Here's a somewhat dated, but very good article on the subject:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/1988-11-01/Backdrafting-Your-Last-Gasp.aspx

As far as a house being super tight is concerned, it is now common knowledge that this may NOT be a house that is human friendly. Check into some of the newer (actually, very old) natural building techniques (such as straw bale, adobe, straw clay, etc) that are gaining popularity these days. These houses breathe, yet are very energy efficient.


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