# "Nattering Nabobs of Negativism"



## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2013)

I have been doing a little private messaging with another member who stated that he was reluctant to actively post in this forum because of the typical responses from the established members; those fellows who are supposed to be supportive of the newbies.

I think he has a good point. 

Questions to this forum often seem to follow one of these formats:
1. _I'm a newbie, and would like to get in the business._ Most of the advice is geared towards chasing them away from the trade.
2. _I have a tree problem, I need some advice._ Most of the responses run along the lines of "don't do it, you are unqualified". I personally believe that they already know that; this is why they asked for advice.
3. _Equipment and hardware questions. _ Everyone seems to enjoy answering these questions.
4. _Tree climbing and trimming technique questions._ Everyone seems to enjoy answering these questions also.

I think that it is a shame that most of the questions posted in this forum gather up a long series of negative responses that are clearly intended to discourage the aspiring arborist to seek another trade or to abandon whatever project they were attempting. I think it is entirely appropriate for us to give advice that includes all of the usual precautionary comments, but I really do not think that it is our job to dump disillusionment and despair on everyone that posts in this forum.

I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever be sued for the advice they give here online, and I really doubt that all of the discouraging advice is genuinely aimed at the original poster's best interests. We all know the tree work is dangerous, but I personally believe that a good deal of the advice is rooted in trade protectionism. 

I also think that a lot of the negative responses are the result of regret on the part of the experienced tree workers for their own career path. *I think it behooves us to figure out a way to be realistic with aspiring tree workers without being so discouraging and negative on the topic.*

Your comments are welcome! Feel free to let me have it, either pro or con, agree or disagree. :msp_sneaky:


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## Pelorus (Sep 5, 2013)

A baboon could possibly become an ISA Certified Arborist. oke:


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## Str8six (Sep 5, 2013)

Pdqdl, that was well put. A lot of replies to newbie questions seem to be an attempt to run them off. I cant understand that at all. I love to share any education I have obtained over the years with anyone that's willing to ask and listen no matter what the subject.


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> A baboon could become an ISA Certified Arborist. oke:



I am not sure what you intend by that comment. This thread is about the comments by the experienced to those that are requesting advice.

And stuff like that.


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2013)

Del_ said:


> It hurts to see the fine advice we give away for free cast in such a negative light.



I'm sure that my comments were not intended toward any of your posts. You would never chase away a newbie, would you?


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## Pelorus (Sep 5, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I am not sure what you intend by that comment. This thread is about the comments by the experienced to those that are requesting advice.
> And stuff like that.



Well, in that case, my conscience is clear, cause I'm very merciful and nice to those tender souls seeking enlightenment. Unlike that bully; Jeff.


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2013)

I did call him that once, but that was in homeowner forum. As I recall, he did not take kindly to my remarks.

Homeowner was completely off topic, and Jeff was kind enough to point that out to them in a somewhat sarcastic manner. I just thought he was being a bit blunt.


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## pdqdl (Sep 5, 2013)

Del_ said:


> For the most part what I see is honest advice being given.
> 
> 
> Members here don't make the staying or leaving decision, the newbie does.



All true; I don't argue the point. There are certainly a lot of negative aspects to the business, and if you really feel that way, it is not dishonest to tell an aspiring arborist that the job sucks and that they will do better to remain a fully employed janitor. It certainly isn't wrong to tell some newbie that they are about to kill themselves trying to climb a dangerous tree.

I just think that we emphasis the negative in this forum and frequently discourage the positive.

I rescued a homeowner today who frantically stopped at my shop; he was stopping at each tree service in the area. Some hack working off a ladder had abandoned a 1/2 cut locust tree in his back yard. Literally! The 20' high cut was done all wrong, a nearly vertical slice through the trunk with no wedge. They fled the scene when they determined that the tree would go the other way. The cut would close and open in the breeze. Telephone service line on the west, chain link fence on the south, Satellite dish on the east, and other trees were on the north.

If a newbie tree climber came to this forum with pictures, what would you tell him to do?


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## Gologit (Sep 5, 2013)

How about the ones who ask for advice...and then argue with it?

How about the ones who don't really _want_ advice but want us to validate something they've already decided to do...whether it makes sense or not? 

Those kind of people deserve to be treated with a rich disdain and sent somewhere else to aggravate people who might possibly have time for them.

That being said...If a person, newbie or not, asks a valid question and has a serious need to know and treats the advice given with the consideration and the respect it deserves I think we're obligated to help. More than obligated really. New people have to go somewhere for information and some of them come here, stumbling and nervous and unsure of themselves, to ask their questions. 
Are their questions irritating and redundant? Yes, almost always, because we've heard them all before. But to the newbie they're an honest appeal for help and information. They should be treated as such.

I think that there are a lot of things in common between arborists and loggers and this is one of them. Are new guys a PITA? Of course. Do they screw up? Almost inevitably. Do we run them off for that or do we explain things, again and patiently, and with any luck at all watch them progress into something useful and productive? That's an easy choice.

Somebody somewhere along the line answered _our_ dumb questions. Now it's our turn. If the old timers I learned from had the self control to keep from strangling me I guess I can do the same.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 5, 2013)

Good thread. And yes, it can get a little rough, but this is a rough business, and gravity doesn't care if you're feelings get hurt. And honestly, to second Bob, a lot of the responses newbies get are based on the attitudes they bring in. He's absolutely right, half these guys aren't looking for advice, they're looking for permission to be right. 

As far as the guys that come on here saying "I've decided to become a tree guy, I just got a rope and saddle off ebay" my advice will always be the same: you can't learn this job off the internet. Go drag some brush and pay your dues. Not out of "trade protection", but because that's the only way you can learn this business, out in the field. There is no room for ego in this business, because gravity doesn't care how you feel about yourself. And honestly, I've spent the last twenty years learning my trade, and still have lot's to learn. And when a newbie come's storming on the scene and just wants a simple answer to a complex question, that dog just don't hunt, cause what you don't know will kill ya. Maybe not this time, but eventually the law of averages will catch up.

As far as the ho forum goes, same thing. A guy posts a pic and says" I've got this tree that broke over in the last storm, and is tangled up in two other trees. I have a wild thing and a 20' ladder, any advice?" My advice will always be to hire a pro. They're gonna do what they're gonna do. But one thing I will not do is offer advice that will get someone hurt. My greatest fear is to have someone's last thoughts be "well ####, Jeff said it would be ok." Pdql, you and I butted heads a little bit on the chainsaw forum a week or two ago on that thread about cutting off a ladder. Have I cut off a ladder before? Of course I have, but I was still tied in, and I did with full knowledge of the risks involved and the safe way to do it. I can't teach that over the internet, that is years of experience, and so the best, safest advice to a homeowner is don't do it ever.

Having said all that, yes, it can get a little harsh here, but it's a harsh business, and for heaven's sake, I've never seen a guy hurt over the internet, but I've seen too damn many hurt by trees. Jeff


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## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2013)

Interesting thread. Seems to be two threads in one. Advice to people (firemen) who want to get into tree business, and questions from newbies about what is a good idea. First off, as a professional heterosexual male escort I am good at bringing the wood, but not very good at falling wood. That being said, many of the homeowners questions are clearly a very bad idea. For full disclosure, I'm trying to get an invite to his GTG, but Jolly Jeff hit the nail on the head. As did that go-bob-it guy


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 5, 2013)

And just as an addendum, If having someone criticize his posts on an internet forum scares him, imagine what will happen when he pulls the cord on that saw.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 5, 2013)

Jeff remember the guy that posted here a few weeks ago about 120ft. White oak with the vertical 10 foot split down the middle next to the glass driveway? He wanted advice yet had every intention of climbing that tree.


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## HuskStihl (Sep 5, 2013)

They both scare me somethin turrible


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 5, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Jeff remember the guy that posted here a few weeks ago about 120ft. White oak with the vertical 10 foot split down the middle next to the glass driveway? He wanted advice yet had every intention of climbing that tree.



Yup, he came to mind. He posted a 101 question in the commercial forum. Could have been a homeowner, how do ya know? So I asked him some basic questions, and he went off from there. We still haven't seen any triumphant "I told ya so" pics. I fear the worst on that one. And I'm sure not gonna give a guy permission and or advice for a tree like that off a couple pics on the internet. I would much rather he ended up embarrassed and alive than offended and dead.


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## futbalfantic (Sep 5, 2013)

*It's me*

I am the member pdq is referring to. After reading many of the responses to this thread the demeanor behind the answers to the questions are a bit clearer. As a new-ish member here I was reluctant to post because it seemed most responses were in a negative light, telling people to move on and find something else to do. Reading this thread and looking back on some of the posts I see y'all are correct with the points. Esp the "tell me I'm right" question. I respect y'alls opinion and insight, didn't want to get off on the wrong foot with a "dumb question"


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## Gologit (Sep 5, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> I am the member pdq is referring to. After reading many of the responses to this thread the demeanor behind the answers to the questions are a bit clearer. As a new-ish member here I was reluctant to post because it seemed most responses were in a negative light, telling people to move on and find something else to do. Reading this thread and looking back on some of the posts I see y'all are correct with the points. Esp the "tell me I'm right" question. I respect y'alls opinion and insight, didn't want to get off on the wrong foot with a "dumb question"



I doubt that you could ask a "dumb question" that one of us hasn't asked somebody at some point in our life.
When I was starting out I had more dumb questions than most but that was long before the 'net and I had to ask my questions in person. I worked around a bunch of guys that weren't very tactful and didn't spend a lot of time figuring out how to save my feelings. They didn't have much mercy. They knew their stuff though and once they saw I was serious they started sharing what they knew.

There's a lot of practical experience and knowledge here and it's available to you for the asking.

Enjoy. And welcome to AS.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 5, 2013)

The thicker your skin is the better off you'll be. Welcome to AS and ask away.

And just a little heads up remember to keep newb questions in 101.


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## Gologit (Sep 6, 2013)

And watch out for the loggers...they'll get you in trouble.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> I am the member pdq is referring to. After reading many of the responses to this thread the demeanor behind the answers to the questions are a bit clearer. As a new-ish member here I was reluctant to post because it seemed most responses were in a negative light, telling people to move on and find something else to do. Reading this thread and looking back on some of the posts I see y'all are correct with the points. Esp the "tell me I'm right" question. I respect y'alls opinion and insight, didn't want to get off on the wrong foot with a "dumb question"



Well welcome to AS. Hopefully this thread kind of helped let ya know where we come from. It is a serious, high stress business, and I would venture to say very few of the pro's on this site don't know someone who was either killed or seriously hurt in this business.so maybe we get a little intense at times, but there's a reason. If ya think it's rough on here, ya should see it on the jobsite. So please ask away, just understand you may not get the answer you're looking for, but you might also get some advice that could save ya from some hurt and misery. 

Go ahead and tell us what ya got going on, Jeff


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## CanopyGorilla (Sep 6, 2013)

Ya beat me to the jobsite comment Jolly. I sorta laughed. As harsh as AS may seem it is 10x more politically correct than the real deal. Guys kicking dirt and yellin at you with tobacco flying out of their mouthes if you screw something up. Watch and listen for a bit and people give you more respect every single day.


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## RandyMac (Sep 6, 2013)

Gologit said:


> And watch out for the loggers...they'll get you in trouble.



I'll remember that, thanks for the warning.


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## bustedup (Sep 6, 2013)

Gologit said:


> And watch out for the loggers...they'll get you in trouble.



LOL ......oh come on loggers are salt of the earth guys (girls too)


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## bustedup (Sep 6, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> I am the member pdq is referring to. After reading many of the responses to this thread the demeanor behind the answers to the questions are a bit clearer. As a new-ish member here I was reluctant to post because it seemed most responses were in a negative light, telling people to move on and find something else to do. Reading this thread and looking back on some of the posts I see y'all are correct with the points. Esp the "tell me I'm right" question. I respect y'alls opinion and insight, didn't want to get off on the wrong foot with a "dumb question"



You'll do fine ......don't take things personally lol..........ask questions .....get advice......read it then either take it or not but ifn ya don't ask ya don't learn .........what you might not understand someone else will ..........It might even take it explained a few different ways before the light goes on but hey we all learn every day 


Most of us ain't writing experts .....(me more than most) so lang may be to the point lol .......you could venture into the logging forum lol ifn ya question regards falling or the like ........we won't get ya in trouble .....I'm sure you can do that all by your lonesome lol 



post bro that's what makes this site


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## imagineero (Sep 6, 2013)

I think the quality of the answers generally matches the quality of the questions. I've only rarely seen someone ask a quality question and get a poor answer. The trouble is that the questions most of the guys ask really can't be answered. Like if somebody said "hi, I'm a truck driver and I just decided to start my own company as a tree worker. Can you tell me how to get customers, what kind of insurance I need, and which chainsaw is the best? Also, how do i quote jobs and how much money will I earn? I have a ladder"

Where do you start with that kind of stuff? The right answer is something like; "don't give up your day job, start at the bottom labouring for someone else, put your time in and learn every aspect of the business. After 3-6 months you'll know if it's right for you. Then, come back and ask for a saddle reccomendation, and you can start learning to climb. Then, come back and ask more questions about cuts, ropes, different hitches, rigging gear, and different ways of working a tree. Learn the species in your local area. After a year or two you'll be ready to start doing your own small jobs on the side. Come back and ask us at that point about how to price them and make sure you've got photos. After another year or so, you might be looking at getting a truck. We can help you there. 6 months later, maybe a small chipper. By that time hopefully youve had quite a bit of experience, and understand most aspects of the work. Now it's time to learn about running a business, quoting, hiring and training staff etc etc etc....."

When someone asks a fairly specific question, they tend to get high quality advice here. But if you come expecting a 3-5 year trade to be served up to you in 2-3 succinct paragraphs, then you've clearly got your head stuffed too far up your ass and deserve every bit of condescension you receive.


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 6, 2013)

I think one issue is redundancy, we get the same ol stuff........... all the time. I think if that search button was used more, we would have less of the same thing, over and over.


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## RVALUE (Sep 6, 2013)

Either Gologit, or someone similar straitened me out in the early days, suggesting that my pride in home ownership didn't parlay into tree dismantling abilities.......

True to form, it sent me on the right path that I've scarcely crossed until today.



Tarry on.


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## futbalfantic (Sep 6, 2013)

I worked as a fire fight and am a paramedic currently, so I am oh so familiar to the "haze" the new guy (so to speak) routine. Problem is, I am that guy with no climbing experience who wants to get into it with 0 chance of working my way up, working on a crew un intended:


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## Zale (Sep 6, 2013)

I don't believe we are negative but we can be very blunt. There is a difference. I think the folks who post they are quitting their day job with good pay and benefits to go work in the great outdoors and be with the trees tend to catch the most flak. Personally, the guys who say they have rock climbing experience drive me nuts. Its almost like they want us to validate their decision. I love the profession I'm in but I will not sugar coat it for a newbie.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

I know CPR and can squirt water from a hose but that don't make me a paramedic or firefighter.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 6, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I have been doing a little private messaging with another member who stated that he was reluctant to actively post in this forum because of the typical responses from the established members; those fellows who are supposed to be supportive of the newbies.
> 
> I think he has a good point.
> 
> ...






I wish I could like this post like a thousand times.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 6, 2013)

. Ya, don't quit your day job. BUT. If you hunt around you can find a crew to work with. There are a million or a thousand things you have to get right in this work. And you can't learn them all at once. Shaun made an excellent summation. Advice worth following. The good thing about the arb.forums is unless your a psychopath, travel time keeps people from being beat senseless or killed for running their mouth. 
So in the long run it makes the question asker mature. 

There r a lot of? s that the? asker needs to truthfully answer before some? s can be answered also.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I have been doing a little private messaging with another member who stated that he was reluctant to actively post in this forum because of the typical responses from the established members; those fellows who are supposed to be supportive of the newbies.
> 
> I think he has a good point.
> 
> ...



There is another side to the coin of one and two. Most of these posters don't introduce themselves or explain their situation, don't seem to have any respect for the industry as a whole, (It's just a chainsaw and a tree, how hard can it be? I've rock climbed and I know knots, how hard can it be?), and are generally just looking for permission, not advice. Honestly, The tree industry has been my chosen profession for twenty years now, and I'm still learning, and always will be. I consider it to be a skilled trade, no different than plumbing, or firefighting, or being an emt. And if I jumped on one of their forums and said "hey, I do trees full time, and want to be a plumber, or firefighter, or emt, but I don't want to quit my day job, and I'm not willing to start at the bottom, can ya give me a few pointers, what do you think their response would be?"


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## cobey (Sep 6, 2013)

Every one has to learn from someone, no one can learn it by punching a keyboard and watching a screen, it is a big help to have the AS,
but everyone has to have a person, and probably several people to teach them. time and real world experiance, they need to submit to someone
that will teach them. if i get some smack put down on me here it may show me how to or not to respond to my boss who has learned what I want to learn :msp_smile:


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

I always try to bring balance to the conversation,,,:msp_biggrin:
Jeff


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I always try to bring balance to the conversation,,,:msp_biggrin:
> Jeff



:doubt:


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## bustedup (Sep 6, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> I worked as a fire fight and am a paramedic currently, so I am oh so familiar to the "haze" the new guy (so to speak) routine. Problem is, I am that guy with no climbing experience who wants to get into it with 0 chance of working my way up, working on a crew un intended:



Why don't ya look into joining a recreational tree climbing group ........you would learn to climb there to a fair degree ......don't think they'd teach ya to climb with spurs. 


I don't wanna tell ya not to go into any kind of tree work (that is your decision) but ifn ya got a good job I'd stick there as Ifn ya say ya got 0 chance of working ya way up then I kinda don't understand what your looking to achieve??? Ifn ya think doing short courses etc is gonna get ya in to a job climbing and cutting without the experience to go with it then I'd say ya might kinda go hungry .........you'll get found out bro cause courses and even this forum cannot replace experience.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> :doubt:



Well, my balance depends on my mood. Also I do not deal with stupid people too good because I will probably call them stupid. Then I will be called a bully. I am not a bully, I just do not think of different ways to say what I feel. I love everyone,,that rhymes with Lovstrom.
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

When you are dead,
You don't know that
You are dead,
It is difficult 
Only on others.

It is the same way
with being stupid.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Well, my balance depends on my mood. Also I do not deal with stupid people too good because I will probably call them stupid. Then I will be called a bully. I am not a bully, I just do not think of different ways to say what I feel. I love everyone,,that rhymes with Lovstrom.
> Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## tramp bushler (Sep 6, 2013)

This thread came up at a good time. I got was about to chew some butt on another thread. And Well balanced Jeff wasn't even in the line of fire. I think he is mellowing with age. :msp_scared:


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## imagineero (Sep 6, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I always try to bring balance to the conversation,,,:msp_biggrin:
> Jeff



I thought that was saw trolls job ;-)


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I thought that was saw trolls job ;-)



Nah, Niko's just here to convert everyone to Huskianity. :rolleyes2:


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

Niko is a great wealth of knowledge but he needs to take the blinders off.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

So we have well balanced Jeff and jolly Jeff.


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## HuskStihl (Sep 6, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> This thread came up at a good time. I got was about to chew some butt on another thread.



Ah ####, what did I do now:msp_biggrin:


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## tramp bushler (Sep 6, 2013)

Well W.B. Jeff makes a living in this industry. And has for quite some time. So when he does share some of that stored knowledge and skill its well worth paying attention to. 

In an effort to not start a battle I'll keep my opinions about someone else to myself.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Well W.B. Jeff makes a living in this industry. And has for quite some time. So when he does share some of that stored knowledge and skill its well worth paying attention to.
> 
> In an effort to not start a battle I'll keep my opinions about someone else to myself.



:msp_unsure:


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> This thread came up at a good time. I got was about to chew some butt on another thread. And Well balanced Jeff wasn't even in the line of fire. I think he is mellowing with age. :msp_scared:



I am trying,, fat-ass!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> I wish I could like this post like a thousand times.



Pretty sure you can,
Jeff :tongue2:


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> There is another side to the coin of one and two. Most of these posters don't introduce themselves or explain their situation, don't seem to have any respect for the industry as a whole, (It's just a chainsaw and a tree, how hard can it be? I've rock climbed and I know knots, how hard can it be?), and are generally just looking for permission, not advice. Honestly, The tree industry has been my chosen profession for twenty years now, and I'm still learning, and always will be. I consider it to be a skilled trade, no different than plumbing, or firefighting, or being an emt. And if I jumped on one of their forums and said "hey, I do trees full time, and want to be a plumber, or firefighter, or emt, but I don't want to quit my day job, and I'm not willing to start at the bottom, can ya give me a few pointers, what do you think their response would be?"



Good post!
Jeff,,


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Well W.B. Jeff makes a living in this industry. And has for quite some time. So when he does share some of that stored knowledge and skill its well worth paying attention to.


 
Dude!
Where is my password!
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> :msp_unsure:



:msp_tongue:
Jeff,,strom.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> :msp_tongue:
> Jeff,,strom.



I like Jeff :msp_wub:strom better


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

Del_ said:


> We are constantly faced with questions like this one:
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/244070.htm
> 
> ...



Not to be a bully, but do you not think that bringing this up is wasting our time. Ah, just being a devil's advocate.
But, yeah, you are correct. Still, 
ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK1
Jeff


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## tramp bushler (Sep 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Ah ####, what did I do now:msp_biggrin:



. Nothin. 
It was about saddles an things.
Pissed me off. .


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

I guess we could show our kinder, gentler side, and when they say they have a buddy's 30' extension ladder and a wild thing, and are planning on topping their 80' pine, just encourage them, help them build up their confidence, and then encourage them to have their loved ones videotape it.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 6, 2013)

A video tape would certainly cut down on the investigation time.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 6, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I guess we could show our kinder, gentler side, and when they say they have a buddy's 30' extension ladder and a wild thing, and are planning on topping their 80' pine, just encourage them, help them build up their confidence, and then encourage them to have their loved ones videotape it.



I wonder who can handle a 40' pole pruner and extensions? With a Big Bite?
Interesting,,,would you like some tea? Cool.
Jeff


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I wonder who can handle a 40' pole pruner and extensions? With a Big Bite?
> Interesting,,,would you like some tea? Cool.
> Jeff



My record's 4 Jameson's, but it wasn't pretty, and I think I could have climbed up there and gnawed it off faster.


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## futbalfantic (Sep 6, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> There is another side to the coin of one and two. Most of these posters don't introduce themselves or explain their situation, don't seem to have any respect for the industry as a whole, (It's just a chainsaw and a tree, how hard can it be? I've rock climbed and I know knots, how hard can it be?), and are generally just looking for permission, not advice. Honestly, The tree industry has been my chosen profession for twenty years now, and I'm still learning, and always will be. I consider it to be a skilled trade, no different than plumbing, or firefighting, or being an emt. And if I jumped on one of their forums and said "hey, I do trees full time, and want to be a plumber, or firefighter, or emt, but I don't want to quit my day job, and I'm not willing to start at the bottom, can ya give me a few pointers, what do you think their response would be?"




I do believe this thread took a turn for the worst when I open my mouth (fingers?). Jolly, I understand where you are coming from, honestly. That is why I am here to learn as much as can to see if it is some viable, worth while, and something I want to take on. Honestly there are many, MANY thing in my line of work that I have never seen and only read about in a book that I will have to treat. Many of which are life threatening, but of course not to me. (yes, I have a synical view on the world). And just to be clear I am not comparing the two professions that would be similar to comparing apples and lettuce. (I don't feel apples to oranges is close enough)


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## Pelorus (Sep 6, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> Honestly there are many, MANY thing in my line of work that I have never seen and only read about in a book that I will have to treat. Many of which are life threatening, but of course not to me. (yes, I have a synical view on the world).



All you need to know (and need to know very, very well) what you are expected to know to do to keep the patient alive till he/she can receive definitive care in a hospital. Deviate from that scope of practice and face the consequences. 
And yeah, I stayed in a Holliday Inn Express once too...


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 6, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> I do believe this thread took a turn for the worst when I open my mouth (fingers?). Jolly, I understand where you are coming from, honestly. That is why I am here to learn as much as can to see if it is some viable, worth while, and something I want to take on. Honestly there are many, MANY thing in my line of work that I have never seen and only read about in a book that I will have to treat. Many of which are life threatening, but of course not to me. (yes, I have a synical view on the world). And just to be clear I am not comparing the two professions that would be similar to comparing apples and lettuce. (I don't feel apples to oranges is close enough)



All right, ya passed the first test, ya came back, lol. If you are serious about this, step one is to read every post on AS. Just kidding, but not really. My point is the archives are a wealth of knowledge, and reading through old threads will answer questions you haven't even thought to ask. Step two is to get a short length of rope and start practicing the top ten knots 'til you can tie them behind your back. I won't tell you what they are, you'll find them in the threads. Step three is to start looking at the trees around you. Really start looking at them. Start noticing their structure, their individual characteristics, their growth patterns. Start seeing how many you can identify, and then work on identifying the ones you don't recognize. Then start noticing the overall health of the tree. Are the leaves full and green? Are there dead limbs, and if so where in the canopy? Any signs of insect damage? If so, what type? Any browning or wilting? You get the picture. Climbing is a means to an end. Tree care is the real goal. So if you want to become a tree man, we'll support ya a hundred percent. If ya just get off on climbing and chainsaws, well, we'll try and keep ya safe. Jeff


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## futbalfantic (Sep 6, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> All you need to know (and need to know very, very well) what you are expected to know to do to keep the patient alive till he/she can receive definitive care in a hospital. Deviate from that scope of practice and face the consequences.
> And yeah, I stayed in a Holliday Inn Express once too...



Sounds like you were/are in the medical feild to some degree. And trust, I know my scope and continue to learn the oddities every day


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## Gologit (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> All you need to know (and need to know very, very well) what you are expected to know to do to keep the patient alive till he/she can receive definitive care in a hospital. Deviate from that scope of practice and face the consequences.
> And yeah, I stayed in a Holliday Inn Express once too...



First, do no harm.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

I guess I failed to make my original point adequately. This thread seems to have evolved into an evaluation of the newbies motives rather than our responses to them. There is an old saying that I think fits here: _"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"_. Why are you guys reading in this forum? It does not seem to me that many of the posted "answers" here are from seasoned professionals that want to encourage newcomers to join up and participate more often. 

My point was that we don't need to be repressive, negative, discouraging, nor rude. A careful evaluation of the average thread in Arb-101 reveals that there are not too many real questions anymore from inexperienced arborists. I believe that is because many of the newbies come to this forum, they get dumped on, and then they don't come back too often.

If you think that they should just man-up and get used to the rough world of real arborists, then we might as well close Arb-101 and advise them to come on up to professional climbers forum and prepare to join the latest cat-fight. Or maybe just get out and step down to homeowner helper forum, where all "how to" advice will be expected to be "hire a professional".


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 7, 2013)

Gologit said:


> First, do no harm.



Unless it's in a state of decline, and threatening a structure.....Oh ####, my bad, thought we were still talking about trees.


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## Zale (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I guess I failed to make my original point adequately. This thread seems to have evolved into an evaluation of the newbies motives rather than our responses to them. There is an old saying that I think fits here: _"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"_. Why are you guys reading in this forum? It does not seem to me that many of the posted "answers" here are from seasoned professionals that want to encourage newcomers to join up and participate more often.
> 
> My point was that we don't need to be repressive, negative, discouraging, nor rude. A careful evaluation of the average thread in Arb-101 reveals that there are not too many real questions anymore from inexperienced arborists. I believe that is because many of the newbies come to this forum, they get dumped on, and then they don't come back too often.
> 
> If you think that they should just man-up and get used to the rough world of real arborists, then we might as well close Arb-101 and advise them to come on up to professional climbers forum and prepare to join the latest cat-fight. Or maybe just get out and step down to homeowner helper forum, where all "how to" advice will be expected to be "hire a professional".




The newbies motives and attitude does determine how we respond to the question. If there are not too many real questions being asked in this forum then why do they deserve a real answer? I don't feel we should close this forum nor do I think we should try and dictate our responses to newbies. The ones who want to learn something will stick around.


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## RandyMac (Sep 7, 2013)

Gologit said:


> First, do no harm.



too late


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 7, 2013)

One thing I see go wrong all the time, a newb will ask a q, then get answers by someone from the HO forum who has no real clue or experience. They watched a vid, tried it in their backyard and now they are a pro giving advice, or the guy that was asking last week, takes his new found knowledge and then is giving advice on it the next week. So the vets jump on them, and often, the thread is derailed. I am guilty of this. I will do better. I also see many very vague questions, when asked for details, the newb either is not interested anymore or they get but hurt. I will say this, if they get but hurt over a average post, then maybe they don't have the skin for this and its good they go a different direction. I don't think its a deal where we don't want them to get into it. Its a deal where we want those who do try and get into it, to do it right. I know I am not alone when I say that the industry is littered with phucktards, jackwagons of shapes and sizes. I get a little tired of the "I just sold a job, how do I do it" then some guy who has only done it for a couple months, is going to give him a master plan on how and why. Its easy to get brash with them, no matter how sincere they really are. When I first joined, I was clueless (nothing has changed), but I was smart enough get is much info as I could on my own, I used that search button before I ever asked a Q, then, when I had all I could find, I dared to ask the elders. I wanted them to see that I was sincere. Once they realized that I was, the knowledge came flooding in. They didn't need to spell it out for me either, they just pointed me in the right direction and away I went. Alot of these new guys dont want to do the research themselves, read a book or work for someone who knows, they have this "too cool for school" attitude, they just want us to give them the answer they want, give them every little detail or they ask about something they already did wrong and they want justification that they did it right. So I see alot u guys bashing them for it, I do it too and rightfully so. I do think we could be a little softer on them, we want them to come back and learn, but we still need to weed out the trolls.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 7, 2013)

Zale said:


> The newbies motives and attitude does determine how we respond to the question. If there are not too many real questions being asked in this forum then why do they deserve a real answer? I don't feel we should close this forum nor do I think we should try and dictate our responses to newbies. The ones who want to learn something will stick around.



It's no different than in the real world. You hire two new guys, one polite, eager, jumps in and helps, stays late to ask questions. The other kid already knows it all because he and his old man used to cut firewood. 6 months later, you're thinking about letting the first kid start getting up in a tree or two bacause he's been practicing his knots at home, and asked to borrow your copy of TCC. The second kid you can't even remember his name, cause he got pissed and quit when you kept trying to show him how to keep the chain out of the dirt.

So some guys come on, ask questions and learn, some guys get pissed because they didn't get the answer they wanted.


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## HuskStihl (Sep 7, 2013)

I will sometimes venture to the HO forum and answer questions (I've done it twice and watched 4 videos so I am somewhat qualified). When my advice differs from that of the pros I will frequently swallow my pride and let the OP (who has no idea other than post count) who in the thread is a pro. I never call out the "not so pro" advice, as I was probably the guy giving it, but will sometimes put in a sarcastic emoticon if I'm feeling brave or confrontational


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## JanThorCro (Sep 7, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Alot of these new guys dont want to do the research themselves, read a book or work for someone who knows





TheJollyLogger said:


> 6 months later, you're thinking about letting the first kid start getting up in a tree or two bacause he's been practicing his knots at home, and asked to borrow your copy of TCC. The second kid you can't even remember his name, cause he got pissed and quit when you kept trying to show him how to keep the chain out of the dirt.



Your right, they really don't want to put forth the the effort that your profession begs for. Ignorance is at an all time high right now and it shows up here. I say it like this, most people don't want their "princess cruise line vacation lives" interrupted by responsibility.

A few years ago I was involved with hauling a stretcher down a scree slope loaded with a guy that bounced his way down a cliff after he made a life altering mistake. Kinda clears that responsibility thing right up.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 7, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I guess we could show our kinder, gentler side, and when they say they have a buddy's 30' extension ladder and a wild thing, and are planning on topping their 80' pine, just encourage them, help them build up their confidence, and then encourage them to have their loved ones videotape it.






Nope. Not what I'm saying. Almost anything involving a ladder is much more than a red flag. . 
But its easy to just plainly say. If you do that you will probably die And destroy what you are trying to protect. Hire a professional . ! 
If they are offended by that. Oh well. But you passed on truthful info without casting aspersions. .


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks Tramp! That is what I have been trying to express.

We don't have to change the content of our messages, I just think it can be done with a whole lot less sarcasm, ill will, and derisive tone. Criticism of a newbies plan is a whole lot easier to take if it doesn't sound so much like criticism of the person that made the plan.

If some newbie has a bad plan, we don't need to knock them down while saying "bad idea". We don't need to ##### slap them for not doing a search first. It could be as simple as a friendly explanation like "This is a topic frequently discussed in this forum. Please do a search." 

When I first came to Arborist Site, I was a complete newbie at "forums" and "threads" and "community" concepts. I know that I never even knew about the search functions nor how to use them. I have plenty of patience for ignorant folks who just don't know about these things, but I have little patience with those folks who should know better; like how to use good manners, how to address strangers, and how one should behave in life. I don't consider the internet a place where the rules of society no longer apply, and I think that a bit more civility is called for, particularly in Arb-101.


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## futbalfantic (Sep 7, 2013)

Man I need a real keyboard. Responding to these posts on my iPad is brutal. 

I fall somewhere in the middle, I love the adrenaline rush from the heights, chainsaws, danger, technical challenge, and what not. (guess that is why I got into emergency services). But I've always looked a trees with there structure, growth, health, and what not. Since reading posts more actively. Until coming here I never knew topping was something desired by HO and have noticed it quite often now. 

As far as reading through all the posts, I've made it mos of the way through 101. 



TheJollyLogger said:


> All right, ya passed the first test, ya came back, lol. If you are serious about this, step one is to read every post on AS. Just kidding, but not really. My point is the archives are a wealth of knowledge, and reading through old threads will answer questions you haven't even thought to ask. Step two is to get a short length of rope and start practicing the top ten knots 'til you can tie them behind your back. I won't tell you what they are, you'll find them in the threads. Step three is to start looking at the trees around you. Really start looking at them. Start noticing their structure, their individual characteristics, their growth patterns. Start seeing how many you can identify, and then work on identifying the ones you don't recognize. Then start noticing the overall health of the tree. Are the leaves full and green? Are there dead limbs, and if so where in the canopy? Any signs of insect damage? If so, what type? Any browning or wilting? You get the picture. Climbing is a means to an end. Tree care is the real goal. So if you want to become a tree man, we'll support ya a hundred percent. If ya just get off on climbing and chainsaws, well, we'll try and keep ya safe. Jeff


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> Man I need a real keyboard. Responding to these posts on my iPad is brutal.



I love when the iPad self-corrects what it thinks are spelling mistakes, and the result is gibberish.


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> We don't have to change the content of our messages, I just think it can be done with a whole lot less sarcasm, ill will, and derisive tone. Criticism of a newbies plan is a whole lot easier to take if it doesn't sound so much like criticism of the person that made the plan.
> If some newbie has a bad plan, we don't need to knock them down while saying "bad idea". We don't need to ##### slap them for not doing a search first.



Mebbe you don't need to, but don't include me in your maniacal etiquette schemes! If some newbie has a bad plan, I think they should have the stupid idea just pounded outta them so that they start thinking the right way.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

I found this today in WTF. Somehow it seems appropriate here:


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Mebbe you don't need to, but don't include me in your maniacal etiquette schemes! If some newbie has a bad plan, I think they should have the stupid idea just pounded outta them so that they start thinking the right way.



That works real well when they are working for you. On the internet, their little minds close like a steel trap, they ignore your attempt to pound anything, and then they just go do what they wanted to do. _"Damned #######s at ArboristSite said this wouldn't work. I'll show them how to work off a ladder..."_

So...what do you actually accomplish when you attempt to pound stupid ideas out of someone over the internet? 

Here is my plan: convince them that you are worth listening to and then show them a better way.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Mebbe you don't need to, but don't include me in your maniacal etiquette schemes! If some newbie has a bad plan, I think they should have the stupid idea just pounded outta them so that they start thinking the right way.



Unfortunately I can really relate to this. However, most of the time I'm finding out thatif I stop and think for a bit. I can keep from biting their head off.


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## tramp bushler (Sep 7, 2013)

But I will say that when I'm up a tree I'm usually not a patient man. . Especially when I need something and some joker is moving too slow.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

I think this whole thing could be solved easily.
We create a thread for those that may have their feelings hurt and need to be treated with care of those feelings.
We can call it 'The Kid's Glove' and PDQDL can be the mod. He can decide who can respond to post's so the OP is not offended. 
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

I would make a poor moderator, and have no such intentions. Besides, In this whole thread I have never expressed concern over anyone's hurt feelings. I never advocated speaking anything but the truth to anyone. There is big difference between telling the truth and just bashing people. Some of you would do well to learn the difference.

The moderators here at AS are supposed to be "enforcers", not guys with kid gloves. My preferred style is to convince folks what is right, not to beat them over the head if they do wrong.

I realize some of you just didn't grow up thinking that way, but it might not be too late to learn.

:msp_rolleyes:


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think this whole thing could be solved easily.
> We create a thread for those that may have their feelings hurt and need to be treated with care of those feelings.
> We can call it 'The Kid's Glove' and PDQDL can be the mod. He can decide who can respond to post's so the OP is not offended.
> Jeff



Wondering if the new thread could also encompass topics like crochet and painting flowers (with pastel watercolours)?


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## HuskStihl (Sep 7, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think this whole thing could be solved easily.
> We create a thread for those that may have their feelings hurt and need to be treated with care of those feelings.
> We can call it 'The Kid's Glove' and PDQDL can be the mod. He can decide who can respond to post's so the OP is not offended.
> Jeff





Pelorus said:


> Wondering if the new thread could also encompass topics like crochet and painting flowers (with pastel watercolours)?



Done


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I would make a poor moderator, and have no such intentions. Besides, In this whole thread I have never expressed concern over anyone's hurt feelings. I never advocated speaking anything but the truth to anyone. There is big difference between telling the truth and just bashing people. Some of you would do well to learn the difference.
> 
> The moderators here at AS are supposed to be "enforcers", not guys with kid gloves. My preferred style is to convince folks what is right, not to beat them over the head if they do wrong.
> 
> ...



You just did a 180, 
One's perception is one's reality.
You do care about hurting the feeling's of posters. You said so!
That is what I got out of it,,my perception.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> My preferred style is to convince folks what is right, not to beat them over the head if they do wrong.
> 
> I realize some of you just didn't grow up thinking that way, but it might not be too late to learn.
> 
> :msp_rolleyes:



This is one example.
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

Pdqll, I want you to consider this alternative ending to Cool Hand Luke, whereby YOU are the Captain. After escaping (and being recaptured 127 times), the 9 hour film ends with Luke and the Captain being fed Pablum in a nursing home...
Is that what you really want? No drama? Bland, stale, bloodless threads that are robbed of vitality and suspense? No band camp? No capital punishment?


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> You just did a 180...
> 
> You do care about hurting the feeling's of posters. You said so!
> ...
> Jeff




No, I didn't. 

Not at all. Quote me, if you think otherwise.

Up till now, I have not even mentioned my reasons for trying to get some of you to quit acting like snotty prima-donnas. The last several posts have been snide, sarcastic, and poorly disguised attempts at ridicule of me and my posts; this is just the sort of crap that you guys dump on newcomers to this website.

Now that you have asked (indirectly), I will tell you: I don't really like to read the vitriol so often poured out in these threads. Your cynical, sarcastic little posts are making all of us look bad, and I would prefer to see an Arb-101 forum that actually resembled a forum where an inexperienced person could come get some useful advice. I don't want this to be a forum where the unaware occasionally venture in, deceived by the title of the forum, only to get thrashed by the "regulars" who are taking out the bitterness in their own lives on total strangers that cannot retaliate.


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

I was just kidding. 
I'm not a bully like that Jeff guy.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Pdqll, I want you to consider this alternative ending to Cool Hand Luke, whereby YOU are the Captain. After escaping (and being recaptured 127 times), the 9 hour film ends with Luke and the Captain being fed Pablum in a nursing home...
> Is that what you really want? No drama? Bland, stale, bloodless threads that are robbed of vitality and suspense? No band camp? No capital punishment?



So you are admitting that you are coming to the forum to create drama, to watch the bloodshed?

Yes. No bloodshed, no banning necessary, no suspense, and no drama. That is exactly what I would prefer. Threads that share knowledge and improve relationships between arborists. There are lots of other forums well suited to picking fights and abusing other people. Keep the hostility elsewhere.

I don't think the owners of this website want Arb-101 to be the zone of reproach, where newcomers get tricked into entering the abuse zone by the deceptive title. If they did, they probably should rename it to "Newbie abuse" or perhaps "Tree Suckers-101". 

Maybe Darin will comment here?


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I would prefer to see an Arb-101 forum that actually resembled a forum where an inexperienced person could come get some useful advice. I don't want this to be a forum where the unaware occasionally venture in, deceived by the title of the forum, only to get thrashed



Like I said,, start a thread for kid's gloves!
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl;4504602I would prefer to see an Arb-101 forum that actually resembled a forum where an inexperienced person could come get some useful advice.[/QUOTE said:


> You are no doubt aware of the existence of "rival" arb discussion boards that can be (or pretend to be) more humane. Consider the case several months ago where a newbie on one of them asked a Arb-101 question. Except, the newbie was running a tree co, and had a website that featured photos of other climbers he had sucked up off the Internet. And the question he was asking had the answer in at least one of the photos.
> It created a bit of......dissension. Some members actually coddled/defended him. And the newbie is/was quite belligerent. Then he starts another Arb-101 thread asking how to cut a tree in half and lower it cause his ex-phone co. truck only goes up 40'. Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> No, I didn't.



Dude, are you high? Read your first post and ask me how this is not so.
Jeff :msp_rolleyes:


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> So you are admitting that you are coming to the forum to create drama, to watch the bloodshed?
> Yes. No bloodshed, no banning necessary, no suspense, and no drama. That is exactly what I would prefer...Maybe Darin will comment here?



Huh? I'm coming to this thread to help you.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Dude, are you high? Read your first post and ask me how this is not so.
> Jeff :msp_rolleyes:



I already asked you, and you responded with a question. Quote me, and then post a logical argument to the contrary. Otherwise, you are just picking fights you know you cannot win.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Huh? I'm coming to this thread to help you.



I apologize then. I apparently mistook sincerity for sarcasm. I will work hard to avoid making that offense again.

Jeff apparently made the same mistake, since he "liked" it. I presume that he would not express such an opinion if he thought you were helping me out.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I don't think the owners of this website want Arb-101 to be the zone of reproach, where newcomers get tricked into entering the abuse zone by the deceptive title. If they did, they probably should rename it to "Newbie abuse" or perhaps "Tree Suckers-101".
> 
> Maybe Darin will comment here?



So you know you know what the site owner thinks and we should follow Your example instead of speaking our mind.
Interesting.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> You are no doubt aware of the existence of "rival" arb discussion boards that can be (or pretend to be) more humane. Consider the case several months ago where a newbie on one of them asked a Arb-101 question. Except, the newbie was running a tree co, and had a website that featured photos of other climbers he had sucked up off the Internet. And the question he was asking had the answer in at least one of the photos.
> It created a bit of......dissension. Some members actually coddled/defended him. And the newbie is/was quite belligerent. Then he starts another Arb-101 thread asking how to cut a tree in half and lower it cause his ex-phone co. truck only goes up 40'. Wash, rinse, repeat.



Yep. There are lots of threads started by idiots that don't really want advice, deceitful behavior abounds on the internet. And at least a few posts are put up by newbies for no other reason than to cause the conflict I would prefer to avoid. 

Bad behavior by others is no excuse for me to act poorly. My goal with this thread is to get a few more folks thinking that way too.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> So you know you know what the site owner thinks and we should follow Your example instead of speaking our mind.
> Interesting.
> Jeff



You aren't speaking your mind, you are making silly rhetorical questions/comments to stir up more conflict. I think that is a huge distraction from my goal, so I will treat it as such.

Jeff, you are too good an arborist to defend acting badly toward the Arb-101 newcomers. You know your trade thoroughly, and I imagine that you do a fine job of helping the newbies in your workplace. If this is just a personal issue between you and me, I will come out now and state for the record that I apologize for my "bully" comment in the past; I never intended it to give you any offense, and I regret that I posted it. 

Why are you trying to distract this thread from it's purpose? Are you really coming out in support of abusive "answers" in this forum?


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> Yep. There are lots of threads started by idiots that don't really want advice, deceitful behavior abounds on the internet. * My goal with this thread is to get a few more folks thinking that way too.*



See, you need your own thread, quit preaching, (dang hot and humid here,) but dude, really,,,,,did you take a girlie pill or something?
I always like your posts and I bet you are a good guy,, but, come on, either start your own thread or quit trying to use censorship.
We are grown up's.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I apologize then. I apparently mistook sincerity for sarcasm. I will work hard to avoid making that offense again.
> 
> Jeff apparently made the same mistake, since he "liked" it. I presume that he would not express such an opinion if he thought you were helping me out.



Dude! I love you! Dang! Quit being so dramatic! Can we not disagree with out you crying? :msp_tongue:
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

Just for the record, I like Pdqdl's posts, and I think he is a good guy. There; I said it & I mean it.
That Jeff guy on the other hand....you don't wanna mess with Dragnet. Or lose a hitch pin. Cause he will write you up. 
The Newbies here need to ask themselves "what would Jeff do?" before they ask a redundant, dumb, pointless question about doing something Darwinian. (Darwinesque?)


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> he will write you up.
> The Newbies here need to ask themselves "what would Jeff do?" before they ask a redundant, dumb, pointless question about doing something Darwinian. (Darwinesque?)



LOL,, I know there is a joke in there some where. Guess what? Yeah, everyone shows up early, everyone checks their vehicles and equiptment, and they also call in if they think they might be a minute late.
Yeah, I run a tight crew,, that is probably why we are a TCIA Accredited.
Jeff 
Accreditation | Tree Care Industry Association


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

I'm not trying to censor anyone; I'm trying to get people to be less offensive and more helpful. By making the forum less abusive, perhaps we can all enjoy the forum a bit more.

Look at what has happened in Commercial Climbing. There used to be a respectable collection of really knowledgeable tree trimmers that posted there all the time. I recall long dialogues about the merits of various rigging methods, tree fertilization, cabling systems, equipment comparisons. That seems to have come to a standstill; I believe it is because all the bickering drove away the better contributors. I can name quite a few members that swore they would never come back because of all the infighting. _They kept their word, too._

I would just like to see that problem reduced in this forum.


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## ClimbMIT (Sep 7, 2013)

Good thread Pdqdl! I think some here can be pretty harsh at times as well. My first post came across as myself being a hack and felt pretty awkward but there were the members here who were helpful and straight forward as well. I chose to listen to the positive and consider the negative comments from people. One thing that can be done as individuals we can be polite to newbie's. Thanks Pdqdl for your sincerity!


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> That Jeff guy on the other hand....you don't wanna mess with Dragnet. Or lose a hitch pin. Cause he will write you up.
> ...



You have an incredible memory. I'm impressed.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 7, 2013)

Y'all bickering like a bunch of damn old ladies at bingo are gonna chase even more newbs away:msp_w00t:


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I'm not trying to censor anyone; I'm trying to get people to be less offensive and more helpful. By making the forum less abusive, perhaps we can all enjoy the forum a bit more.
> 
> Look at what has happened in Commercial Climbing. There used to be a respectable collection of really knowledgeable tree trimmers that posted there all the time. I recall long dialogues about the merits of various rigging methods, tree fertilization, cabling systems, equipment comparisons. That seems to have come to a standstill; I believe it is because all the bickering drove away the better contributors. I can name quite a few members that swore they would never come back because of all the infighting. _They kept their word, too._
> 
> I would just like to see that problem reduced in this forum.



Again, one more time,, start a thread!
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

Pdqdl's did start a thread, Jeff. The one we is bickering on.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> You have an incredible memory. I'm impressed.



If you hook up and do not have a hitch pin that was there when you un-hooked,,,well,,,you are dumb.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Pdqdl's did start a thread, Jeff. The one we is bickering on.



LOL,, That is funny!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

With the PDQDL thread,, we can use words like, silly, please, don't, do, this, love, caring, about, you, and then comes the word 'silly',, and we start over. Now add feeling's,,,
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

That "silly" word was used because I knew it would really get under your skin. It is only slightly demeaning in it's literal definition, yet I knew that a big bad tree trimmer & manager of men like yourself would find it very irritating to have applied to his own statements.

See! You guys are making me pick on helpless ol' Jeff, too.


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Y'all bickering like a bunch of damn old ladies at bingo are gonna chase even more newbs away:msp_w00t:



An excellent point.

Just for the record, I have never been to a bingo game, and I don't know how the old ladies act. How is that you seem to know how they act at the bingo parlor?


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

PDQDL,, I read every post you ever wrote here!
You not only intrigue me, but I believe you to be a pro.
I am a pro. Period.
I am sorry if you are trying to get a bunch of pro's to use ' Charmin',
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Sep 7, 2013)

I think my efforts are paying off rather nicely.

Go read the posts in the rest of this forum since I started this thread. I have not found any that I thought were intended to be insulting to the OP. All the "you need to hire a pro" comments were very straightforward and direct. I was impressed by everyone's restraint, but I thought it unwise to comment.

So far, I'm pretty happy about how this has turned out. I hope the dialogue continues.


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## Bandit Man (Sep 7, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> A baboon could possibly become an ISA Certified Arborist. oke:



Don't know about a baboon, but I've often fantasized about training a Chimp to run a 200T


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## CanopyGorilla (Sep 7, 2013)

Del_ said:


> We are constantly faced with questions like this one:
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/244070.htm
> 
> ...



This is the interweb. We are ALL here as a wast of time...


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## Del_ (Sep 7, 2013)

I object to the premise that we need to do better at being on our best behavior and handle people who ask questions here with kid gloves.



It's irritation reading the constant babble on the subject that this thread was meant to stir up.


Knowledge of our trade is being passed along just fine. No changes needed.


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## HuskStihl (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I think my efforts are paying off rather nicely.
> 
> Go read the posts in the rest of this forum since I started this thread. I have not found any that I thought were intended to be insulting to the OP.
> So far, I'm pretty happy about how this has turned out. I hope the dialogue continues.



Just so you know, that Viking dude called me a "Dope" a while ago. While that was very rude, and somewhat uncouth, what was really interesting was that I didn't cry. Admittedly I felt like it, but then put on my big girl panties, took a deep breath, and took stock in my own self worth. At that point I felt strong enough to carry on. Then RandyMac gave me the finger, which did make me very verklempt. Seriously, real life people call me stupid to my face all the time, and I'm gonna get my panties in a bunch when some dude on the Internet says it?

However..... This thread is arb 101, which implies dumbass questions will be tolerated.

Slowp, if you happen to read this, and I hope you don't, I will owe you yet another apology


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 7, 2013)

Another arborist taken before his prime... R.I.P. stutreeguy107

Stuart Smalley's famous quote - YouTube


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

pdqdl said:


> I think my efforts are paying off rather nicely.
> 
> Go read the posts in the rest of this forum since I started this thread. I have not found any that I thought were intended to be insulting to the OP. All the "you need to hire a pro" comments were very straightforward and direct. I was impressed by everyone's restraint, but I thought it unwise to comment.
> 
> So far, I'm pretty happy about how this has turned out. I hope the dialogue continues.



I think you tricked us!!!!!
Jeff :wink2:


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 7, 2013)

Lord help the next newbie that wanders in...


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Just so you know, that Viking dude called me a "Dope" a while ago. While that was very rude, and somewhat uncouth, what was really interesting was that I didn't cry.



I am sorry, 
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 7, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Lord help the next newbie that wanders in...



Too funny!!....


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 7, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Lord help the next newbie that wanders in...



I'm gonna give him/her a big ole cyber hug and bake them a cake.:msp_biggrin:


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## futbalfantic (Sep 8, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm gonna give him/her a big ole cyber hug and bake them a cake.:msp_biggrin:



I was trying to decide when I should make a new handle and intoduce my self as "new," I guess now is the time


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## tramp bushler (Sep 8, 2013)

So foot ball ; 
What r your goals in this. Do you want to care for trees or kill them?? Both are honorable professions. And you can do both. But its prolly best if you have a direction to head in as you can't get good at both simultaneously. ????


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## HuskStihl (Sep 8, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am sorry,
> Jeff



None required!




tramp bushler said:


> So foot ball ;
> What r your goals in this. Do you want to care for trees or kill them?? Both are honorable professions. And you can do both. But its prolly best if you have a direction to head in as you can't get good at both simultaneously. ????



Excellent post, subtle pun combined with great advice. I haven't been able to rep 'ya in about a year, but I would if i could


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## twochains (Sep 8, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> I was trying to decide when I should make a new handle and intoduce my self as "new," I guess now is the time



Good one right there...it's already working. :msp_rolleyes:


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## TNTreeHugger (Jul 3, 2022)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think this whole thing could be solved easily.
> We create a thread for those that may have their feelings hurt and need to be treated with care of those feelings.
> We can call it 'The Kid's Glove' and PDQDL can be the mod. He can decide who can respond to post's so the OP is not offended.
> Jeff


Brilliant.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 3, 2022)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Brilliant.


**** dude, that was a long time ago... I think 2 of those guys climbed their last tree.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 4, 2022)

I re-read the whole thing, ah, memories, 
Jeff
It was a beautiful day!


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## capetrees (Jul 4, 2022)

another resurrected, this time from 2013?

not a stalker, no, not a stalker at all.


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## capetrees (Jul 5, 2022)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Hey, I learned from the best.
> How much you wanna bet he deletes this thread, too?
> Since when are you on the side of censorship?


I don't like internet stalkers and you are one.


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## TNTreeHugger (Jul 5, 2022)

capetrees said:


> I don't like internet stalkers and you are one.


It's called a search feature. Works really well...


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## capetrees (Jul 5, 2022)

TNTreeHugger said:


> It's called a search feature. Works really well...


for stalkers especially


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## TNTreeHugger (Jul 5, 2022)

capetrees said:


> for stalkers especially


Works the same for everyone.


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## stihl sawing (Jul 6, 2022)

You two get a room.


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## stihl sawing (Jul 6, 2022)

A little humor injected is always good. lol


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 6, 2022)




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## Woodslasher (Jul 6, 2022)

Did I miss something? PDQ has always seemed to be a pretty decent and straight-shooting forumite, albeit a little annoying to some members, so I'm not sure where this negativity towards him is stemming from. Sure, he's a member who got promoted to moderator, I don't see why his posts need to be "differentiated" for when he is or isn't posting "moderator stuff". I also don't see why old threads of his are being resurrected for no apparent reason, could someone here clue me in?


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## capetrees (Jul 6, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> That has never happened.
> Prove that false accusation with a quote.


or be gone


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## capetrees (Jul 6, 2022)

TNTreeHugger said:


> Oh and look who's stepped in...and look who liked your comments!
> How hypocritical of both of you.


you're fading


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## capetrees (Jul 6, 2022)

TNTreeHugger said:


> You insisted...
> 
> [IMG alt="capetrees"]https://cdn.imagearchive.com/arboristsite/data/avatars/m/20/20237.jpg?1613524535[/IMG]
> capetrees​Tree Freak​*AS Supporting Member*
> ...


point?


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## pdqdl (Jul 6, 2022)

This has been a completely off topic derailment that isn't any good for Arb 101. I hope one of the other moderators steps in soon and renders an opinion.

Pursuant to that action, I'll clear this thread of all the BS that's been going on.


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## pdqdl (Jul 7, 2022)

To all the recent readers of this thread: it seems that TNTreeHugger has decided to bail out on her perverse attacks on me and has deleted all of her posts in this thread. Several other recent posters in this thread have followed that pattern, as well as myself.

Since it was all a horrible distraction of the purpose of this forum, I encourage everyone whose posts are now out of context and no longer make any sense to delete them as well, if they wish.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 7, 2022)

It was a beautiful day!
Jeff


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