# 661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?



## redbull660

****EDIT - Test completed...jump to page 15. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-15#post-5300597*



Looking for some opinions on a test I'm going to do, hopefully this saturday.

Test - mix up 32:1 40:1 and 50:1 with stihl utlra and 92 oct eth free. Start off with 50:1 and do a couple of timed test cuts then take the jug temp with the thermo gun. Then empty the saw and refill and run 40:1 for a bit to get the mtronic doing it's thing with 40:1, then do couple of timed test cuts and take jug temp and repeat same process with 32:1.

Saw - 661R.
Bar - 36" tsumura
Chain - that is the question - I can run either 3/8 or .404. new Stihl RS.

3/8 - pretty much everyone uses that but..
404 - seems to me 404 would require more power and it seems to me that if there was THAT much difference the 404 would make the saw and mix show it better.

So what do you guys think?


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## KG441c

That will be very interesting. Dino vs 100% ester bases would also be interesting


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## funky sawman

VERY interesting....


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## funky sawman

I been running mine with motul 800 2t off road, at 40:1, Im not liking what I see on top the piston


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## nk14zp

.404 fer the test.


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## Haywire Haywood

Total waste of time.


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## KG441c

My favorite is Belray H1R


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## Moparmyway

I vote .404 and agree 100%, the .404 will need more power and make more of a difference if there is a difference to be seen

I get H1R on Amazon


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## Moparmyway

funky sawman said:


> I been running mine with motul 800 2t off road, at 40:1, Im not liking what I see on top the piston


I think different oils do different things with different fuels.
When I run pump gas with ethanol and 800, combustion chambers look much dirtier than when I run 800 with VP


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## Natty Bumppo

I wouldn't expect enough of an improvement or liability to make a difference in cutting speed by changing gas/oil ratios in that range. I thought most of us went with 40:1 or 32:1 rather than the manufacturer's recommended 50:1 for better lubrication and engine protection.
Of course, I could be wrong.
Oh, and go with .404


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## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> belray 32:1 would be interesting to throw into the mix. But I don't know where to get it though.


I will throw some bel ray in with the bar when i ship it today ,i have 4 -5 oz in a bottle here ,4 oz will be 32 to 1


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## redbull660

thanks man! ok well looks like we're doing 32:1 bel-ray as well


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## blsnelling

I will run 32:1 regardless of cut times, simply for the protection factor.


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## Trx250r180

In my motocross days ,32 to 1 was found to make more power


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## Chev727

I've always ran 32:1 in all my 2 strokes from motocross bikes to saws and never an issue with them


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## KG441c

.


blsnelling said:


> I will run 32:1 regardless of cut times, simply for the protection factor.


whats your current liking Brad?


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## redbull660

oil does burn hotter so maybe 32:1 will be too rich and run hotter than 40:1. To little possibly 50:1 = bad as well? Maybe 40:1 is the sweet spot. Who knows. All speculation. This is why I test stuff. Hopefully we'll get some good info.


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## KG441c

Something else to test. Ive liked Mustang Mikes theory of how much hotter does lower octane burn and the temp. Difference on the engine


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## KG441c

Yes I agree 87 will make more power but maybe at the expense of more heat but heat does produce energy?


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## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> I think randy already did a test of 87 oct vs like 93 and the 93 was faster.


87 makes more power. The trapped compression ratio on saws is much to low to see any benefit from higher octane fuel.


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## KG441c

cuttinties said:


> 87 makes more power. The trapped compression ratio on saws is much to low to see any benefit from higher octane fuel.


Does that mean that the stroke is too short for the saw to burn high octane completely per stroke to be any benefit?


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## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> Does that mean that the stroke is too short for the saw to burn high octane completely per stroke to be any benefit?


It means a couple of things. The stroke isn't long enough with high enough compression, or the bore isn't large enough with enough compression. If a person were dealing with predetonation then they'd benefit from a higher octane. But to get that much compression in a saw would put it in a realm that wouldn't be a work saw. And even then you need to make use of the compression at that point. There's a reason your saws don't run 400 lbs of compression. This argument of high vs low octane is pretty feckless. The only real problem most need to concern themselves with is properly mixed ethanol free fuel and proper tuning. Then it's about making a sharp chain.


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## SCHallenger

Another vote for .404. And a big thanks for your testing!! This stuff provides very useful information.


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## KenJax Tree

Then why is the canned fuel like Motomix,Trufuel,SEF and such 93 octane or higher?


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## KG441c

Do u think higher octane will run alil cooler at the expense of some power?


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## cuttinties

KenJax Tree said:


> The why is the canned fuel like Motomix,Trufuel,SEF and such 93 octane or higher?


Very simple. That's usually the octane which has the fewest additives.


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## SCHallenger

KenJax Tree said:


> The why is the canned fuel like Motomix,Trufuel,SEF and such 93 octane or higher?



Motomix is 92, VP is 94, & Husqvarna premix is 95.


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## KenJax Tree

Lol i was just asking.... This stuff is way over my head[emoji1]


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## cuttinties

KenJax Tree said:


> Lol i was just asking.... This stuff is way over my head[emoji1]


It's a good question really. Most places sell the "premium" ethanol free fuel which is usually 92 or 93 octane in the United States. In Europe the ethanol free fuel is anywhere from 94-97


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## walexa07

I think the canned fuel is higher octane for longer shelf life. Fuel octane degrades over time, so if you start off with 87, open the can and it sits several months or a year you could be in the low 80's by the time you get around to using it. Starting with 93, hopefully it won't degrade to the point of predetonation before it gets used up. Just my thoughts.

In the central southern US where I live/travel, ethanol is in all grades of gasoline. If you do find a place that has some ethanol-free fuel, it will likely be 87 or 89 octane. There is 1 store in my town that only sells ethanol-free gasoline, and in all grades. Very well may be different in different areas - this is just what I have seen local to me.

Waylan


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## cuttinties

walexa07 said:


> I think the canned fuel is higher octane for longer shelf life. Fuel octane degrades over time, so if you start off with 87, open the can and it sits several months or a year you could be in the low 80's by the time you get around to using it. Starting with 93, hopefully it won't degrade to the point of predetonation before it gets used up. Just my thoughts.
> 
> In the central southern US where I live/travel, ethanol is in all grades of gasoline. If you do find a place that has some ethanol-free fuel, it will likely be 87 or 89 octane. There is 1 store in my town that only sells ethanol-free gasoline, and in all grades. Very well may be different in different areas - this is just what I have seen local to me.
> 
> Waylan


I've been to 29 states and my statement was based from a general standpoint. There's a couple of states that have a great variety of ethanol free options. But places like Iowa predominantly sell 89 with 10%.


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## KG441c

Im interested to see temp. Differences in the oil ratios!!


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## Fishnuts2

I'll jump in too, and speculate that you'll not see much if any temperature differences. There are only a couple of drops of oil differences between the ratios used anyway, considering you'll burn just a few ounces of mix for the tests. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Termite

Redbull, you are the testingest guy I know. 
And I like it.


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## Outlaw5.0

No such thing as pre detonation, now preignition yes. Detonation happens after the igntion of the air/fuel mixture


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## Brentc

I vote .404


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cuttinties

Outlaw5.0 said:


> No such thing as pre detonation, now preignition yes. Detonation happens after the igntion of the air/fuel mixture


Detonation, or engine knock, occurs simply when fuel pre-ignites before the piston reaches scheduled spark ignition.


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## Adirondackstihl

funky sawman said:


> I been running mine with motul 800 2t off road, at 40:1, Im not liking what I see on top the piston


I run VP w/ 800 2T @ 32:1 and I couldn't be any happier. No build up.
Nice film of oil on everything internal.
I was actually just inside one of my old 044's this weekend that I know I had personally ran a minimum of 5gal through. Top of the piston was almost as shiny as the day I installed it.
Little tiny bit of so called carbon at the exhaust side. I'll post a pic

The one on the right has seen approx 6-7 gallons of fuel. At least 5 of which was Motul & VP @ 32:1


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## Outlaw5.0

cuttinties said:


> Detonation, or engine knock, occurs simply when fuel pre-ignites before the piston reaches scheduled spark ignition.


False, detonaton/knock happens after the spark ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Preignition is when the air/fuel mixture ignites before the timed spark resulting in peak pressure before TDC.


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## HuskStihl

cute'lil'titties said:


> It means a couple of things. The stroke isn't long enough with high enough compression, or the bore isn't large enough with enough compression. If a person were dealing with predetonation then they'd benefit from a higher octane. But to get that much compression in a saw would put it in a realm that wouldn't be a work saw. And even then you need to make use of the compression at that point. There's a reason your saws don't run 400 lbs of compression. This argument of high vs low octane is pretty feckless. The only real problem most need to concern themselves with is properly mixed ethanol free fuel and proper tuning. Then it's about making a sharp chain.


Guys, we've been over this 1000 times. There are two rules, and if you remember them, you'll always be right
1). Anything associated with a larger number will _always _be superior in every way to something associated with a smaller number, in any application. 93 is much better than 87. .063 is much better than .050. .404 is much better than .325.

2). If it is more expensive, it is going to be way awesomer. Feckless indeed


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## cuttinties

Outlaw5.0 said:


> False, detonaton/knock happens after the spark ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Preignition is when the air/fuel mixture ignites before the timed spark resulting in peak pressure before TDC.


Want to Google search it real fast my friend? I'll admit when I'm wrong but this isn't one of those case's


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## Outlaw5.0

Have at my friend.


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## cuttinties

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Have at my friend.


I already have double checked. I in fact copy and pasted the exact words that came up.


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## Outlaw5.0

Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition

*Written *by Allen W. Cline

Reprinted from Issue 54 of CONTACT! Magazine, published in January, 2000

All high output engines are prone to destructive tendencies as a result of over boost, misfueling, mis-tuning and inadequate cooling. The engine community pushes ever nearer to the limits of power output. As they often learn cylinder chamber combustion processes can quickly gravitate to engine failure. This article defines two types of engine failures, detonation and pre-ignition, that are as insidious in nature to users as they are hard to recognize and detect. This discussion is intended only as a primer about these combustion processes since whole books have been devoted to the subject.

First, let us review normal combustion. It is the burning of a fuel and air mixture charge in the combustion chamber. It should burn in a steady, even fashion across the chamber, originating at the spark plug and progressing across the chamber in a three dimensional fashion. Similar to a pebble in a glass smooth pond with the ripples spreading out, the flame front should progress in an orderly fashion. The burn moves all the way across the chamber and , quenches (cools) against the walls and the piston crown. The burn should be complete with no remaining fuel-air mixture. Note that the mixture does not "explode" but burns in an orderly fashion.

There is another factor that engineers look for to quantify combustion. It is called "location of peak pressure (LPP)." It is measured by an in-cylinder pressure transducer. Ideally, the LPP should occur at 14 degrees after top dead center. Depending on the chamber design and the burn rate, if one would initiate the spark at its optimum timing (20 degrees BTDC, for example) the burn would progress through the chamber and reach LPP, or peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. LPP is a mechanical factor just as an engine is a mechanical device. The piston can only go up and down so fast. If you peak the pressure too soon or too late in the cycle, you won't have optimum work. Therefore, LPP is always 14 degrees ATDC for any engine.

I introduce LPP now to illustrate the idea that there is a characteristic pressure buildup (compression and combustion) and decay (piston downward movement and exhaust valve opening) during the combustion process that can be considered "normal" if it is smooth, controlled and its peak occurs at 14 degrees ATDC.

Our enlarged definition of normal combustion now says that the charge/bum is initiated with the spark plug, a nice even burn moves across the chamber, combustion is completed and peak pressure occurs at at 14 ATDC.

Confusion and a lot of questions exist as to detonation and pre-ignition. Sometimes you hear mistaken terms like "pre-detonation". Detonation is one phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. Pre-ignition is another phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. The two, as we will talk about, are somewhat related but are two distinctly different phenomenon and can induce distinctly different failure modes.

_*KEY DEFINITIONS *_*Detonation:* Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

*Pre-ignition:* Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

_*DETONATION *_Unburned end gas, under increasing pressure and heat (from the normal progressive burning process and hot combustion chamber metals) spontaneously combusts, ignited solely by the intense heat and pressure. The remaining fuel in the end gas simply lacks sufficient octane rating to withstand this combination of heat and pressure.

Detonation causes a very high, very sharp pressure spike in the combustion chamber but it is of a very short duration. If you look at a pressure trace of the combustion chamber process, you would see the normal burn as a normal pressure rise, then all of a sudden you would see a very sharp spike when the detonation occurred. That spike always occurs after the spark plug fires. The sharp spike in pressure creates a force in the combustion chamber. It causes the structure of the engine to ring, or resonate, much as if it were hit by a hammer. Resonance, which is characteristic of combustion detonation, occurs at about 6400 Hertz. So the pinging you hear is actually the structure of the engine reacting to the pressure spikes. This noise of detonation is commonly called spark knock. This noise changes only slightly between iron and aluminum. This noise or vibration is what a knock sensor picks up. The knock sensors are tuned to 6400 hertz and they will pick up that spark knock. Incidentally, the knocking or pinging sound is not the result of "two flame fronts meeting" as is often stated. Although this clash does generate a spike the noise you sense comes from the vibration of the engine structure reacting to the pressure spike.

One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure. The higher the specific output (HP/in3) of the engine, the greater the sensitivity to detonation. An engine that is making 0.5 HP/in3 or less can sustain moderate levels of detonation without any damage; but an engine that is making 1.5 HP/in3, if it detonates, it will probably be damaged fairly quickly, here I mean within minutes.

Detonation causes three types of failure:

1. Mechanical damage (broken ring lands)

2. Abrasion (pitting of the piston crown)

* 3. Overheating (scuffed piston skirts due to excess heat input or high coolant 
temperatures)*


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## cuttinties

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition
> 
> *Written *by Allen W. Cline
> 
> Reprinted from Issue 54 of CONTACT! Magazine, published in January, 2000
> 
> All high output engines are prone to destructive tendencies as a result of over boost, misfueling, mis-tuning and inadequate cooling. The engine community pushes ever nearer to the limits of power output. As they often learn cylinder chamber combustion processes can quickly gravitate to engine failure. This article defines two types of engine failures, detonation and pre-ignition, that are as insidious in nature to users as they are hard to recognize and detect. This discussion is intended only as a primer about these combustion processes since whole books have been devoted to the subject.
> 
> First, let us review normal combustion. It is the burning of a fuel and air mixture charge in the combustion chamber. It should burn in a steady, even fashion across the chamber, originating at the spark plug and progressing across the chamber in a three dimensional fashion. Similar to a pebble in a glass smooth pond with the ripples spreading out, the flame front should progress in an orderly fashion. The burn moves all the way across the chamber and , quenches (cools) against the walls and the piston crown. The burn should be complete with no remaining fuel-air mixture. Note that the mixture does not "explode" but burns in an orderly fashion.
> 
> There is another factor that engineers look for to quantify combustion. It is called "location of peak pressure (LPP)." It is measured by an in-cylinder pressure transducer. Ideally, the LPP should occur at 14 degrees after top dead center. Depending on the chamber design and the burn rate, if one would initiate the spark at its optimum timing (20 degrees BTDC, for example) the burn would progress through the chamber and reach LPP, or peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. LPP is a mechanical factor just as an engine is a mechanical device. The piston can only go up and down so fast. If you peak the pressure too soon or too late in the cycle, you won't have optimum work. Therefore, LPP is always 14 degrees ATDC for any engine.
> 
> I introduce LPP now to illustrate the idea that there is a characteristic pressure buildup (compression and combustion) and decay (piston downward movement and exhaust valve opening) during the combustion process that can be considered "normal" if it is smooth, controlled and its peak occurs at 14 degrees ATDC.
> 
> Our enlarged definition of normal combustion now says that the charge/bum is initiated with the spark plug, a nice even burn moves across the chamber, combustion is completed and peak pressure occurs at at 14 ATDC.
> 
> Confusion and a lot of questions exist as to detonation and pre-ignition. Sometimes you hear mistaken terms like "pre-detonation". Detonation is one phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. Pre-ignition is another phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. The two, as we will talk about, are somewhat related but are two distinctly different phenomenon and can induce distinctly different failure modes.
> 
> _*KEY DEFINITIONS *_*Detonation:* Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
> 
> *Pre-ignition:* Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.
> 
> _*DETONATION *_Unburned end gas, under increasing pressure and heat (from the normal progressive burning process and hot combustion chamber metals) spontaneously combusts, ignited solely by the intense heat and pressure. The remaining fuel in the end gas simply lacks sufficient octane rating to withstand this combination of heat and pressure.
> 
> Detonation causes a very high, very sharp pressure spike in the combustion chamber but it is of a very short duration. If you look at a pressure trace of the combustion chamber process, you would see the normal burn as a normal pressure rise, then all of a sudden you would see a very sharp spike when the detonation occurred. That spike always occurs after the spark plug fires. The sharp spike in pressure creates a force in the combustion chamber. It causes the structure of the engine to ring, or resonate, much as if it were hit by a hammer. Resonance, which is characteristic of combustion detonation, occurs at about 6400 Hertz. So the pinging you hear is actually the structure of the engine reacting to the pressure spikes. This noise of detonation is commonly called spark knock. This noise changes only slightly between iron and aluminum. This noise or vibration is what a knock sensor picks up. The knock sensors are tuned to 6400 hertz and they will pick up that spark knock. Incidentally, the knocking or pinging sound is not the result of "two flame fronts meeting" as is often stated. Although this clash does generate a spike the noise you sense comes from the vibration of the engine structure reacting to the pressure spike.
> 
> One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure. The higher the specific output (HP/in3) of the engine, the greater the sensitivity to detonation. An engine that is making 0.5 HP/in3 or less can sustain moderate levels of detonation without any damage; but an engine that is making 1.5 HP/in3, if it detonates, it will probably be damaged fairly quickly, here I mean within minutes.
> 
> Detonation causes three types of failure:
> 
> 1. Mechanical damage (broken ring lands)
> 
> 2. Abrasion (pitting of the piston crown)
> 
> * 3. Overheating (scuffed piston skirts due to excess heat input or high coolant
> temperatures)*


http://www.progl.com/General/detonation.htm

I'll keep it simple read the first paragraph.


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## Stihlman441




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## catbuster

However you define engine knock, higher octane fuels have less of it. Engine knock is simply a less than optimum start to combustion. 

Engine knock can be disastrous, especially in small engines where a small amount of knock is amplified by the lack of mass to absorb the shock of engine knock. 

That's why higher octane fuels are recommended in small engines.


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## Outlaw5.0

cuttinties said:


> http://www.progl.com/General/detonation.htm
> 
> I'll keep it simple read the first paragraph.


Much as you want to believe that, it is not correct, but if its on the internet it must be true.


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## Outlaw5.0

*Detonation and Preignition*

By: *WDRacing*

To me there isn’t anything cooler then watching the needle on an analog boost gauge race towards a number that would make most people flinch or cringe… as if they’re expecting to hear some sort of gunshot followed by metal on metal warfare. Not me. I’m a boost addict right down to the core of my soul. Too much being almost enough in most cases. It’s this same desire that’s helped me to send my fair share of motors to the boneyard ahead of their time. Well you can only screw around for so long before you realize that doing it the right way insures a lot more time spent behind the wheel and less in the garage. You’re not going to successfully run huge numbers of boost unless your tune is on the money. In my humble DIYer opinion, there is one thing more important then any other aspect of tuning, and that’s understanding and controlling detonation.







Let’s roll through the normal combustion process first. I don’t want to use a bunch of technical speak here and muck it all up trying to use big words, so I’m going keep it as base as possible. Normal combustion is simple. The air and fuel mixture (AFR) is being compressed by the piston as it travels up the cylinder. When the piston reaches a predetermined point (we’ll use 20* degrees before top dead center, or BTDC for our example), the spark plug fires and starts the combustion process, originating at the plug tip. The burn should be steady and even as it spreads out from the plug and moves across the chamber, like throwing a rock into a pond. At the end of the combustion process, all of the air fuel mixture has been burned and the piston is traveling back down the cylinder. There is no “explosion” – just an even and controlled ignition. Notice I said even and controlled, that’s the key to the entire process.

It’s hard to define detonation and not pre-ignition because the two are often confused and or misunderstood. Detonation and pre-ignition are two distinctly different types of combustion. Detonation is the AFR mix igniting by itself due to heat and pressure. Detonation is what occurs AFTER the spark plug has fired. Everything that happens before the spark plug fires is considered pre-ignition. Simple, right? Maybe, maybe not. How do you know which one you’re suffering from and what causes what?

Pre-ignition represents the worst possible thing that can happen during the combustion process. Detonation is pretty common and motors can run for 100’s of thousands of miles while suffering from light to moderate knock – Especially today’s newer cars with intelligent knock monitoring. However, these aren’t high performance engines.

Pre-ignition is what happens when you have a hot spot inside the combustion chamber. A hotspot is something or some area that gets hotter then anywhere else. The usual suspects are the plug ground strap, the plug tip itself, or even a bit of carbon on the exhaust valve or the piston head. Basically anything that can act like a “glow plug” inside the combustion chamber can cause pre-ignition.

What we have during a pre-ignition event is the AFR mix entering the chamber as the piston is reaching the bottom of its stroke and returning to the top. When the piston is at the bottom of its stroke, the pressure AND temperature of the AFR mix is the lowest. As the piston travels up the cylinder the temperature and pressure increase greatly, making the mix harder to ignite. Sometimes the pressure is so great the spark event isn’t strong enough to ignite the AFR all the way (or at all) in some cases. This is the reason for aftermarket ignition amplifiers. I’m only explaining this now so you understand that there is a substantial difference in temperature and pressure between the top and bottom of the piston stroke. At the bottom of the stroke the AFR mix is at the point where it ignites the easiest. This is where a hot spot, if it exists, can ignite the AFR mix causing pre-ignition. The result is the entire AFR mix lighting off at once as the piston is moving up the cylinder. You’re not going to stop the mechanical rotation of the crankshaft so the poor piston is left trying to compress an explosion. The heat generated will melt the crown of a forged aluminum piston in a fraction of a second. Total engine failure is always the end result of pre-ignition. Unfortunately, you often don’t get a chance to troubleshoot pre-ignition. On the rare occasion that you are, some of the signs that you’re suffering from pre-ignition are worn and eroded spark plugs – Sometimes the ceramic will be cracked or missing.









To stop pre-ignition ahead of time you need to eliminate hotspots and keep the motor running at normal operating temps. A motor that runs hot is making every single vehicle system work harder. The correct heat range spark plug is a must. An incorrect heat range plug can induce pre-ignition all by itself. Hotter plugs are better for cold starting and idle etc, but bad for a high output motor. Forced induction motors should always run 2 or 3 heat ranges colder then a NA motor. If you’re motor is run under a load for an extended period of time you’re going to need to take extra steps to avoid pre-ignition. Some manufacturers use piston oil squirters, small jets that spray oil onto the bottoms of the pistons. This cooling of the AFR mix inside the combustion chamber is called quenching. The cool sides of the cylinder and piston head “quench” the AFR mix as it ignites, helping to control the flame front as it spreads out across the chamber. Regardless of steps taken, all efforts to avoid pre-ignition MUST be considered throughout the build and during the tuning process.






Like I mentioned earlier, detonation is an event that happens after the plug has fired. It’s caused by too much heat and pressure inside the combustion chamber. The high heat and pressure become great enough to light off the remaining AFR mix all by itself. The result is multiple flame fronts inside the combustion chamber. When this occurs, you get a sharp spike in cylinder pressure. If you were data logging cylinder pressure you would see a steady rise in pressure as normal combustion occurs, followed by a sharp but brief spike caused by the detonation. The sound you hear, referred to as knock, is the engine itself and the rotating assembly absorbing the shock, not the actual combustion inside chamber. The frequency of detonation is close to 6400 Hz, in almost all engines – with little or no difference between aluminum and iron blocks. The knock sensor picks up vibrations at this frequency and tells the ECU to pull timing and / or add fuel. Severe detonation can’t be compensated for by the factory ECU, although there are some aftermarket systems that will go as far as to shut down the motor under severe knock. Moderate levels of knock will cause bearing wear, something often misdiagnosed as normal wear or some sort of lubrication issue. Bearing wear can turn into rod knock real quick. Lock up a bearing and you throw a rod through the block in most cases.

Forced induction motors are very susceptible to detonation because of the high temperature and cylinder pressures created under boost. The knock count, or type of knock can go from light to severe very quickly under load. It’s this situation that causes broken rings lands and engine wear. An engine prone to detonation will also run hot, which compounds the problem because an engine that runs hot usually suffers from more knock. The scenario continues to snowball until the knock becomes destructive.


Octane ratio is a fuel’s ability to resist auto ignition. That means when it’s heated to a certain point, it will simply ignite by itself. For instance most pumps offer 87, 89 and 91 octane gasoline. The smart people of the world have already written everything on octane ratio, so I’m not going to explain the formula. You can take my word for it when I say, 91 octane pump gas has a higher resistance to knock then 87 octane. A motor that runs fine on 87 octane might suffer from mild knock on a really hot day – This is an example of how sensitive engines can be to fuel octane.

Once any particular fuel reaches its knock threshold it will spontaneously ignite. Again, the severity of detonation differs greatly, but a performance engine runs very close to the knock limit all the time – because that is where the power is! Things like heat soak also decrease the amount of time you can stay under load, so if you’re racing, don’t assume that just because it was good on the last pass that it’ll be good for another pass without a cool-down period. There is a fine line where ignition timing, compression and boost pressure all work in harmony to burn the AFR mix.


----------



## Adirondackstihl




----------



## Outlaw5.0

Sorry about the long read, I don't want anyone to get mislead about the difference. I feel it's important to the know the difference.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Holy dogballs


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Holy dogballs


 maybe, WE , need to be taking the INTERNETS, more serious


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

"are you serious Clark"


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> maybe, WE , need to be taking the INTERNETS, more serious



I just put the oil in the gas and start the saw...this is all foreign to me.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I just put the oil in the gas and start the saw...this is all foreign to me.


 im pickin' up what your puttin' down here brother, this is getting to be serious here.............................


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> im pickin' up what your puttin' down here brother, this is getting to be serious here.............................



4 oz to a gallon

Start saw

Cut wood

Am i over thinkin this ?


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

ahh no, sounds like you got it figured out there fella. may want to add some bar oil from time to time though, it think bad things happen when that tank runs dry as well....................


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> ahh no, sounds like you got it figured out there fella. may want to add some bar oil from time to time though, it think bad things happen when that tank runs dry as well....................



I wondered what that other cap was for


----------



## blsnelling

Are you done yet?  While I'm sold on running 32:1, I'm curious to see what you find.


----------



## Flip D

Cuttin' always seems to make good posts, but in this case he's wrong. Outlaw has an avatar and Cuttin' doesn't so that makes Outlaw right. It's the #1 rule of internet posting.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I wondered what that other cap was for


 sorry, had a bad day and needed a good laugh. with that said carry on with the ratio business. i have always ran stihl ultra, @ 40-1


----------



## Haywire Haywood

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I just put the oil in the gas and start the saw...this is all foreign to me.


No, no.. You got it backwards. First oil, then pump the gas in. Mixes better that way.


----------



## Nitroman

redbull660 said:


> Looking for some opinions on a test I'm going to do, hopefully this saturday.
> 
> Test - mix up 32:1 40:1 and 50:1 with stihl utlra and 92 oct eth free. Start off with 50:1 and do a couple of timed test cuts then take the jug temp with the thermo gun. Then empty the saw and refill and run 40:1 for a bit to get the mtronic doing it's thing with 40:1, then do couple of timed test cuts and take jug temp and repeat same process with 32:1.
> 
> Saw - 661R.
> Bar - 36" tsumura
> Chain - that is the question - I can run either 3/8 or .404. new Stihl RS.
> 
> 3/8 - pretty much everyone uses that but..
> 404 - seems to me 404 would require more power and it seems to me that if there was THAT much difference the 404 would make the saw and mix show it better.
> 
> So what do you guys think?



Unless the motor is on a dynamometer, this "test" will mean nothing as it will be subjective.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> sorry, had a bad day and needed a good laugh. with that said carry on with the ratio business. i have always ran stihl ultra, @ 40-1



I just make it easy to remember for myself and 4oz to a gallon is easy..i am anxious to see how this turns out though


----------



## Andyshine77

Looking forward to the results!!!


----------



## HuskStihl

I am curious about the results, but as good as my saws' internals look with h1r at 32:1, I'm not gonna change in the foreseeable future


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

HuskStihl said:


> I am curious about the results, but as good as my saws' internals look with h1r at 32:1, I'm not gonna change in the foreseeable future


I like it when the internals are in good shape.


----------



## Moparmyway

H1R, 800, R50, and K2
they all run super clean with VP, my borescope shows it on many different motors.

I think the pump gas is the wild card .......... meaning different guys will all have different looking combustion chambers due to the variables in their pump gas. All can run the same oil at the same ratio, yet be able to show pics of drastically different piston tops


----------



## KenJax Tree

I still have some of the race oils but i keep buying more Lucas. $30 a gallon and nice shiney blue coated internals.....i'm sold.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

R50 left a black mess with any fuel for me at 40:1. Stihl ulta HP was clean with any fuel.


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> I still have some of the race oils but i keep buying more Lucas. $30 a gallon and nice shiney blue coated internals.....i'm sold.


Forgot that one ......... I think VP 50:1 uses Lucas as its blue and definitely does not smell like Amsoil 2 cycle
I haven't really given Lucas a try, been running all of the other stuff, but I do have a gallon of it so I will get to it eventually.


----------



## Moparmyway

Outlaw5.0 said:


> R50 left a black mess with any fuel for me at 40:1. Stihl ulta HP was clean with any fuel.


I thought you ran Techniplate and not the R50 ? Maybe that was someone else ?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I never had a problem with R50 in fact it left the best coating of oil i've seen, the Super Techniplate leaves a nasty black sticky goo. But that was on a snowmobile.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Moparmyway said:


> I thought you ran Techniplate and not the R50 ? Maybe that was someone else ?


Only R50.


----------



## chevybob

I always ran Beltay H1R 32:1 in my 250 2-smokers. I run my saws on 93 octane mixed at 40:1 with Husqvarna semi-synthetic and never even think about. My saws always run good.


----------



## Definitive Dave

cuttinties said:


> Very simple. That's usually the octane which has the fewest additives.


I gotta call a minor case of shenanigans on this theory 
About a mile from me is the plant where fuel (all grades are one fuel) comes in and all the trucks from all the stations pick up their fuel that comes from the same place and has the additives and octane created by Midwest Petroleum as they load the trucks. It is all the same before the separation and additives so it seems like they can use whatever the engineers call for and bean counters approve as far as octane.


----------



## CR888

Unless a small engine dino magically appears in this test, l cannot see any conclusive facts coming of it. More oil should make more power but there will be a point where the trend reverses. Cookie cut times are a funny measure of brake horsepower but as long as your havin fun, its all good.


----------



## chevybob

It's funny all the firewood guys and saw builders worry so much about fuel and oil. In the tree business nobody pays attention to what kind of oil they are using or where the fuel came from. They (not me I'm a bit more anal about my saws) just mix whatever they got at 50:1 and run those saws everyday year after year and never have problems. It seems the guys who screw around with their saws too much are the ones who have issues. I don't do too much I just make sure to use fresh gas and always run Husqvarna oil at 40:1 and keep my filters clean and saws in tune.

And plugs can't forget fresh spark plugs every season.


----------



## redbull660

The tree I'm cutting on... cuts should take a while. And the 404 full comp 36" I think would show more of a difference if more power is gained or lost. If there is a temp difference that should be telling. If there is a big enough difference in time that will be telling.

Update: 

*Trx250r180* is sending me some belray h1r so that will be in the test, but will push this back a couple of days to next Tues or Wed.


Got the chains -








Do you guys want me to use the stock muffler? Or this extra one I bought and opened up?


----------



## chevybob

Use the modded one. Gotta sound good while your doing this


----------



## Moparmyway

Use the modded one, but I vote to make that opening even larger


----------



## Mastermind

chevybob said:


> It's funny all the firewood guys and saw builders worry so much about fuel and oil. In the tree business nobody pays attention to what kind of oil they are using or where the fuel came from. They (not me I'm a bit more anal about my saws) just mix whatever they got at 50:1 and run those saws everyday year after year and never have problems. It seems the guys who screw around with their saws too much are the ones who have issues. I don't do too much I just make sure to use fresh gas and always run Husqvarna oil at 40:1 and keep my filters clean and saws in tune.
> 
> And plugs can't forget fresh spark plugs every season.



Think whatever you want. The saws I build always get an increase in compression. More oil keeps the bottom ends from failing. I've seen the results of 50:1 in a performance engine. Melted rod bearings are common at that ratio. If any saw I build is used at 50:1, I will not be responsible for it's failure. 

Oh, since I've only built about 800 saw engines in the last five years......am I screwing with saws too much?


----------



## blsnelling

I'm sure those guys were using stock saws. 50:1 should be fine.


----------



## chevybob

Mastermind said:


> Think whatever you want. The saws I build always get an increase in compression. More oil keeps the bottom ends from failing. I've seen the results of 50:1 in a performance engine. Melted rod bearings are common at that ratio. If any saw I build is used at 50:1, I will not be responsible for it's failure.
> 
> Oh, since I've only built about 800 saw engines in the last five years......am I screwing with saws too much?



WOAH!
Back up a little man I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I've seen saws you've built in action and have all the respect for you and other builders. I was just telling it how it is from someone who uses saws in a different way then the recreational guys. Work saws see much much more abuse then any firewood saw will ever see and recieve minimal maintainence at best. And these saws continue to cut all day everyday for years. 

I'm not saying your way is wrong at all. The saws you build are in a whole different category. I'm just trying to point out that keeping things simple is just as good as using all these crazy oils and fuels and all that. I'm sure in a built saw those things are needed.


----------



## chevybob

blsnelling said:


> I'm sure those guys were using stock saws. 50:1 should be fine.



Exactly I'm talking stock work saws that are used in the tree removal industry.


----------



## KenJax Tree

WOW!! Brad and Randy AGREEING on something?? I'm gonna buy some lotto tickets.


----------



## chevybob

And if it makes you sleep better at night I run my saws at 40:1


----------



## HuskStihl

chevybob said:


> It's funny all the firewood guys and saw builders worry so much about fuel and oil. In the tree business nobody pays attention to what kind of oil they are using or where the fuel came from. They (not me I'm a bit more anal about my saws) just mix whatever they got at 50:1 and run those saws everyday year after year and never have problems.



Wait a minute, are you telling me that guys who run saws for a living treat them like tools of the trade? I can't believe these guys don't drive 50 miles for ethanol free gas and run oil designed for engines with triple the output of their saw? I'm calling bs on that


----------



## KenJax Tree

HuskStihl said:


> Wait a minute, are you telling me that guys who run saws for a living treat them like tools of the trade? I can't believe these guys don't drive 50 miles for ethanol free gas and run oil designed for engines with triple the output of their saw? I'm calling bs on that


Yes mine have never been violated, brought in the house, they stay alone on the truck in the yard during the weekend, and they've never been polished[emoji33]


----------



## HuskStihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Yes mine have never been violated, brought in the house, they stay alone on the truck in the yard during the weekend, and they've never been polished[emoji33]


Ken, that's just plain nuts! You must not understand what kind of difference the right oil could make in u'r life!


----------



## Gologit

KenJax Tree said:


> Yes mine have never been violated, brought in the house, they stay alone on the truck in the yard during the weekend, and they've never been polished[emoji33]



You mean you don't wash, blow dry with purified air, wax, and then clean all the crevices with a Q-tip and sing it a comforting little song while you're attending to it's needs every time you fuel? I'll bet you even let your saws get rained on and covered in dust. Barbarian.

Back on topic. Oil? Meh, somewhere around 40:1...depending on how much I slop down the side of the fuel jug and how much time I want to spend trying to get the last micro-ounce of oil out of the container. Bailey's synthetic seems to do just fine.


----------



## CR888

I remember my grandfather's stihl 028 that he abused for nearly two decades on his farm, he would add a good dollop of 30 wieght engine oil into a can of leaded fuel and away he'd go. He was mechanically illiterate and believed any problem could be fixed with more oil. Cleaning an air filter was somthing to do if your saw did not start. Problem with any engine could soon be fixed with more oil. He never killed that saw. l remember riding his farm AG bikes which were 2strokes and there was always a trail of blue smoke following you everywhere no matter how long it was running. He fixed almost everything with wire, bail twine and oil.


----------



## bwalker

32:1 is about perfect for a saw unless milling our in huge wood constantly. I might look at 20:1 in those situations and tune the car accordingly with the caveat that a quality oil that doesn't inhibit combustion is used..


----------



## bwalker

And detonation occurs after the plug firing....


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> And detonation occurs after the plug firing....



Yes it does......


----------



## bwalker

And predetonation doesn't exist...


----------



## bwalker

I would expect a temp gun reading of the cylinder head or wall to read higher as the amount of oil increases. The film of oil between the piston and cylinder acts as a heat transfer medium and thus it would stand to reason the cylinder would run hotter. It also stand to reason that the most important piece in regards to heat, the piston would be running cooler.
I would also see these tests have so many uncontrolled variable that they are a goat rodeo at best..


----------



## jl4c

Outlaw5.0 said:


> False, detonaton/knock happens after the spark ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Preignition is when the air/fuel mixture ignites before the timed spark resulting in peak pressure before TDC.



Please define "after." Is BDC the dividing point, like 12am is the start of a new day? When is "after" one ignition event different than "before" the next ignition event?


----------



## bwalker

After the exhaust port has closed on the up stroke and before the plug fires=pre ignition. After the spark plug fires but before the exhaust port is opened on the down stroke=detonation..


----------



## HarleyT

Does it "ping"???


----------



## bwalker

I have a lightly tuned YZ-250 that I have ran with Yamalube 2R at 16:1 and premium pump fuel while riding at the dunes. With a paddle tire.Runs great, the plugs are light tan and the exhaust is bone dry. FWIW this hike has an 09 head and if the jetting isn't right it will detonate very easily in its current state of tune regardless of oil ratio. It will not detonate at 16:1 when I set it up right.


----------



## bwalker

HarleyT said:


> Does it "ping"???


Pinging can be from either pre ignition or detonation. Although in my expiereance pinging is more associated with pre ignition and detonation makes more of a knocking sound with a corresponding loss of hp under load.


----------



## nk14zp

32:1


----------



## nk14zp

Mastermind said:


> Think whatever you want. The saws I build always get an increase in compression. More oil keeps the bottom ends from failing. I've seen the results of 50:1 in a performance engine. Melted rod bearings are common at that ratio. If any saw I build is used at 50:1, I will not be responsible for it's failure.
> 
> Oh, since I've only built about 800 saw engines in the last five years......am I screwing with saws too much?


I pulled the muffler on my stock 254xp to mod it and it was drier than a desert at 50:1. I'm a 32:1 guy now.


----------



## funky sawman

redbull660 said:


> The tree I'm cutting on... cuts should take a while. And the 404 full comp 36" I think would show more of a difference if more power is gained or lost. If there is a temp difference that should be telling. If there is a big enough difference in time that will be telling.
> 
> Update:
> 
> *Trx250r180* is sending me some belray h1r so that will be in the test, but will push this back a couple of days to next Tues or Wed.
> 
> 
> Got the chains -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you guys want me to use the stock muffler? Or this extra one I bought and opened up?


How much did you have to pay out for that muffler?


----------



## HuskStihl

redbull660 said:


> anyone know what temp the 661 jug should actually be at?


Well, the 661 operates on a controlled fusion reactor platform. Within the magnetic containment field, it should be about 1 million degrees Kelvin, give or take a few.


----------



## funky sawman

SO whats the results???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????................?


----------



## funky sawman

ohh yea one more ?


----------



## Nitroman

KenJax Tree said:


> I never had a problem with R50 in fact it left the best coating of oil i've seen, the Super Techniplate leaves a nasty black sticky goo. *But that was on a snowmobile*.



That was the reason I quite using it and went to Polaris VES. The Pol was spendy, but better than what I could find out here.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Nitroman said:


> That was the reason I quite using it and went to Polaris VES. The Pol was spendy, but better than what I could find out here.


VES Gold has got to be the best smelling oil ever!


----------



## Nitroman

Great Minds Think Alike....


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> Pinging can be from either pre ignition or detonation. Although in my expiereance pinging is more associated with pre ignition and detonation makes more of a knocking sound with a corresponding loss of hp under load.


No it cant. Ping is NOT the used interchangably to define both preignition and detonation. Ping IS detonation and typicall does no harm to engines. Preignition typicall causes catastrophic engine failure due to peak firing pressure before TDC of the stroke. This can bend rods and cause piston and ring failure.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Adirondackstihl said:


> VES Gold has got to be the best smelling oil ever!


I had some Ipone[emoji526] that smelled good enough to eat.


----------



## Nitroman

That is The Magic Oil. I've tried to get that, and Spectro, but no joy.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

KenJax Tree said:


> I had some Ipone[emoji526] that smelled good enough to eat.


Yeah, that smells good too.
Harder to get tho


----------



## KenJax Tree

Its not cheap but you can get it.
http://gpbikes.com/ipone-samourai-racing-mx-2-stroke-oil.html


----------



## Adirondackstihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Its not cheap but you can get it.
> http://gpbikes.com/ipone-samourai-racing-mx-2-stroke-oil.html


There is a local engine shop that carries it. But like you said, it ain't cheap.


----------



## steven stern

So 50:1 is less oil than 40:1?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Yes 50:1 is 2.6oz and 40:1 is 3.2oz per gallon


----------



## blsnelling

steven stern said:


> So 50:1 is less oil than 40:1?


50 parts gas to 1 part oil.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

And 32 is more than 40


----------



## redbull660

ok boys and girls! Looks like today is the day!

changed things slightly. I'll be doing

32:1 belray h1r
vs
40:1 belray h1r
vs
50:1 belray h1r
vs
40:1 stihl ultra syn
vs
50:1 stihl ultra syn only had 4 gas cans so this one is in a 1 gal water jug that is DRY as a bone, don't worry. 

bought and mixed this morning all from the same pump same time. 92 oct eth free.

test saw - 661R

bar - tsumura 36" .063 *.404 pitch*

chains - (5) New Stihl Rapid super full comp .404 (36" .404 .063 104DL)


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> ok boys and girls! Looks like today is the day!
> 
> changed things slightly. I'll be doing
> 
> 32:1 belray h1r
> vs
> 40:1 belray h1r
> vs
> 50:1 belray h1r
> vs
> 40:1 stihl ultra syn
> vs
> 50:1 stihl ultra syn only had 4 gas cans so this one is in a 1 gal water jug that is DRY as a bone, don't worry.
> 
> bought and mixed this morning all from the same pump same time. 92 oct eth free.
> 
> test saw - 661R
> 
> bar - tsumura 36" .063 *.404 pitch*
> 
> chains - (5) New Stihl Rapid super full comp .404 (36" .404 .063 104DL)


Cant wait to see the results ................
Let me know if you need someone to help take the chains off your hands when you are done.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm anxious to see the results as well. Yes, there are plenty of variables, but your tests have shown some consistent results. If you're crazy enough to do the tests, I'll enjoy the results


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> I'm anxious to see the results as well. Yes, there are plenty of variables, but your tests have shown some consistent results. If you're crazy enough to do the tests, I'll enjoy the results


Whats takin him so dang long???


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> ok boys and girls! Looks like today is the day!
> 
> changed things slightly. I'll be doing
> 
> 32:1 belray h1r
> vs
> 40:1 belray h1r
> vs
> 50:1 belray h1r
> vs
> 40:1 stihl ultra syn
> vs
> 50:1 stihl ultra syn only had 4 gas cans so this one is in a 1 gal water jug that is DRY as a bone, don't worry.
> 
> bought and mixed this morning all from the same pump same time. 92 oct eth free.
> 
> test saw - 661R
> 
> bar - tsumura 36" .063 *.404 pitch*
> 
> chains - (5) New Stihl Rapid super full comp .404 (36" .404 .063 104DL)



Belray should not be used at less than 32:1 in any engine under 125cc. 

Read the jug sir.


----------



## big t double

blsnelling said:


> If you're crazy enough to do the tests, I'll enjoy the results



crazy doesn't even begin to describe this guy


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Belray should not be used at less than 32:1 in any engine under 125cc.
> 
> Read the jug sir.


I switched back to H1R


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> I switched back to H1R



Me too.


----------



## blsnelling

I don't understand that. How is one ester based synthetic oil ok at <32:1 *in a chainsaw* and another not? Would be a great question for Belray. Anyone asked? I have not. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## maulhead

Mastermind said:


> Me too.



Me 3, after you showed me that picture of the piston, in my 13 tank 661, that was only ran with Stihl Ultra @ 40:1 with 91 E free gasoline. 

I am not going to use Ultra anymore.


----------



## Moparmyway

maulhead said:


> Me 3, after you showed me that picture of the piston, in my 13 tank 661, that was only ran with Stihl Ultra @ 40:1 with 91 E free gasoline.
> 
> I am not going to use Ultra anymore.


Post it up for us to see ??


----------



## CR500

Can not wait for some results.... have to visit the other test thread 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## maulhead

Moparmyway said:


> Post it up for us to see ??



As long as Randy does not mind,, here it is. 

12 full tanks were ran threw the saw, and I dumped most the 13th one out before shipping. 40:1 Ultra, 91 E free gas.




I have little over 20 tanks on my 441, with Belray mixed at 32:1, looks nothing like that, not even close!!


..


----------



## Mastermind

Moparmyway said:


> Post it up for us to see ??




I just looked for it.......but can't find it. I'm getting sloppy with my files.


----------



## Mastermind

maulhead said:


> As long as Randy does not mind,, here it is.
> 
> 12 full tanks were ran threw the saw, and I dumped most the 13th one out before shipping. 40:1 Ultra, 91 E free gas.
> 
> View attachment 416182
> 
> 
> I have little over 20 tanks on my 441, with Belray mixed at 32:1, looks nothing like that, not even close!!
> 
> 
> ..




Repped.


----------



## Moparmyway

Mastermind said:


> I just looked for it.......but can't find it. I'm getting sloppy with my files.


I am getting sloppy with a lot more than my files in my old age .................


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I talked to a dude on here who has been runnin 40:1 H1R i his ported 441c for years without issue and he runs his saw quite a bit..i just mixed 32:1 because thats what the bottle said..idk..this stuff confuses me.


----------



## blsnelling

maulhead said:


> As long as Randy does not mind,, here it is.
> 
> 12 full tanks were ran threw the saw, and I dumped most the 13th one out before shipping. 40:1 Ultra, 91 E free gas.
> 
> View attachment 416182
> 
> 
> I have little over 20 tanks on my 441, with Belray mixed at 32:1, looks nothing like that, not even close!!
> 
> 
> ..


I would love to see the piston cleaned up and then after another 12 tanks on H1-R.


----------



## Mastermind

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I talked to a dude on here who has been runnin 40:1 H1R i his ported 441c for years without issue and he runs his saw quite a bit..i just mixed 32:1 because thats what the bottle said..idk..this stuff confuses me.



I had a customer's saw fail that I couldn't really explain once Ryan. It scored slightly in very hot weather. I checked it over when it got back and couldn't find anything wrong, carb setting seemed ok, no air leaks, no "smoking gun" that I could find. He said he was running H1R @ 40:1. I fixed the saw, and asked him to start using 32:1. No more issues. 

Now, I really don't "know" that running it at 40: hurt it.......but I don't see any reason to take any chances.


----------



## Trx250r180

I  oil threads


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Piston on the right.
Motul 800 @ 32:1
5+ gallons
Probably closer to 6-7 gallon


----------



## Trx250r180

So it seems like more people prefer aftermarket vs oem in this thread ?


----------



## Mastermind

Yes. 

And stuff.


----------



## mdavlee

maulhead said:


> As long as Randy does not mind,, here it is.
> 
> 12 full tanks were ran threw the saw, and I dumped most the 13th one out before shipping. 40:1 Ultra, 91 E free gas.
> 
> View attachment 416182
> 
> 
> I have little over 20 tanks on my 441, with Belray mixed at 32:1, looks nothing like that, not even close!!
> 
> 
> ..


That looks like super techniplate or something like that. The dirty oils that some people love to hate are burning way cleaner than ultra there.


----------



## maulhead

Adirondackstihl said:


> Piston on the right.
> Motul 800 @ 32:1
> 5+ gallons
> Probably closer to 6-7 gallon



I sure wish mine looked that clean!!


----------



## redbull660

Mastermind said:


> Belray should not be used at less than 32:1 in any engine under 125cc.
> 
> Read the jug sir.




Had a nice long discussion with Belray Tech. The tech guy Andrew is awesome. I don't see what it could hurt posting it. So it's a long read but, pretty interesting and informative at least for me. 

And i have to read through it again and digest and figure out some more questions. 


---------------------------------------------------------
Redbull660 -

Hello, My friend (heavy into motocross) swears by your products. Wondering if you carry anything that would be good for my Stihl 661 91cc 7hp chainsaw? 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BelRay -

We have many customers of ours using the H1-R ester 2-stroke oil in their chainsaws and other gas powered tools with a lot of success. That would definitely be my first recommendation for your Stihl. Its full name is H1-R 100% Full Synthetic Ester 2T Engine Oil, item number 99280. You can mix that at Stihl's recommended mix ratio, but if you see excess oil coming from the exhaust you may be able to switch to a leaner oil mixture over time for a cleaner burn. If you have any additional questions, let me know.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull660 -

So H1R ok. I'll pick some up. So stihl says like 50:1 in all their saws with their Stihl ultra synthetic 2 stroke oil. Would you start out that lean with the H1R? A little searching...I see a guy who has a ported MS661 (91cc) and runs your H1R at 32:1 ratio with 92 ethanol free gas. But with the porting he's running around 205-215psi compression. I think a stock MS661 ie. what I"m using is more around 170psi. I'm assuming that would make a difference?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray -
Based on that, I would suggest starting at 40:1 or 42:1 for normal use. I'm not sure how you are running the saw though, so if you are taking on some heavy pieces that you are running the throttle wide open for longer periods of time than average use, then the 32:1 might be the better way to go. The only thing that too much oil might do is foul a spark plug. So if you want to start at 32:1 and work your way up to the "sweet spot" ratio that might be a good idea.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Redbull660 -

I'll try 32:1 and 42:! and see what happens. My friend has a thermo gun (measure the cyl temp after the cuts) and I can do some long timed cuts with a 41" bar.

btw - I'm switching because I'm pissed that even when I tried the Stihl ultra syn at 45:1 and then 40:1 I still had hard black carbon build up on the piston head. My friend thinks with the Belray I won't be seeing any more build up? Maybe it has something to do with flash point? which has me asking this - Could you tell me a little about the importance of the flash point? I see the flash point on the H1R is 395F while I looked up the flash point on the Stihl ultra syn 2 cyl - at 222 F. Quite the difference. http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray -

The flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup. The H1-R should give you a much cleaner burn and result in far less buildup than the Stihl oil. The biggest factor in this is the base fluid. Because H1-R is made with all ester base fluids it burns very cleanly. The residue left behind after burning this type of fluid is almost negligible when actually burned where petroleum and some other types of synthetic oils will leave carbon deposits and ash when burned.
The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull660 -

Very interesting!

ok so I gotta ask...how would a low flash point affect the octane rating vs a high flash point temp?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray -

If the flash point is too high and the oil is able to interrupt the gasoline's combustion, you can have decreased combustion efficiency due to a portion of it being less flammable. If you have a very low flash point it can result in increased combustion, but you are sacrificing lubrication by doing so since your lubricant is burning off before it even reaches the piston. There is a balance point that is necessary to not effect the combustion but still make the lubricant robust enough to reach the surfaces.
Due to one of the certifications our H1-R carries, which is specified for Kart racing, we have tested the effect of H1-R on the octane rating of gasoline. There are two different testing protocols called the motor octane number (MON) and the research octane number (RON). The MON for H1-R is 0.2 increase in 86 octane fuel and the research octane rating is a change of 0 in 96 octane fuel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull660

well that makes a lot of sense.

hmm. This seems obvious. But i'll ask anyway... Well...

could you talk about how the combustion would change if one went from H1R 92
eth free 32:1 to say 50:1 ? what are the basic things that would happen
if you did that?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray -

Going from a leaner oil ratio to a richer oil mixture just increases the amount of oil you are pumping into the combustion chamber. If you are running too rich you have excess oil that will just come in and go right out in the exhaust. It might also lower the power in the engine by just bogging the piston down with excess oil. Going from 32:1 to 50:1 though would lean out your oil mixture. There is potential is that you could under-lubricate and engine that way, but since your engine originally calls for a 50:1 mix so you should not have any problem there. The harder and hotter you are running your engine, the more oil you want because you need to replenish oil that is being burned off.

For instance, in Kart racing, they are running at about 16000 - 20000 rpms at full throttle for a whole race, so they often mix between 16:1 to 32:1 to compensate for the high speed and heat. In moto trials, they are running very low rpms for only short bursts or idling, so they often will run between 80:1 to 100:1 so that they do not have excess oil building up in the cylinder at idle speeds.
The effect on the combustion going from 32:1 to 50:1 will not be very noticeable, you may see differences over time if you are tearing the engine down and inspecting the piston and cylinders, but the combustion itself will largely be unaffected by that change.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull660 -

sounds good. makes a lot of sense now. So the Stihl 661 runs at 13k-13.5k (max throttle) and max throttle is used for most cuts, but most cuts are
only running on avg. maybe 20-30 seconds long. Then back to idle. So based
on that what mix ratio would you think would likely work best? Curious to what you think.

But...thinking it might be interesting to both of us if I mix up some 32:1,
42:1 and 50:1. Time the cuts and take the jug temp ...see if there is a discernable difference?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray -

That is not a bad plan. I think you will end up at the 42:1 ratio in the end, but by all means, test and figure out what works best for your machine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull660 -

So the flash point on the stihl synthetic 2 cyl mix is 222F and the H1R is
395F. The highest I've ever recorded a cyl temp with my friend's thermo
gun is around 345F Obviously it would be hotter inside the cylinder. I
contacted Stihl and they couldn't give me an exact # ...but said the
operating range is between 375-425 F measured at the sparkplug. Not sure how
they do that. Anyway...would that mean that the H1R isn't actually burning
at all?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray -

The flash point only refers to a single measurement point where the vapors reach a combustible limit under special circumstances. It is used as a reference for general safety of transport and gives a general idea of the volatility of oils. All oil will "burn" at just any temperature, the only difference is the rate and how completely it burns (residues left behind). The H1-R does burn over time, which is what you want or else your crankcase would just fill with oil and overflow into the cylinder. Your mix ratio is set so that you should be introducing fresh oil at an equivalent rate to the burn rate of the oil in the case and cylinder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## blsnelling

Thanks for doing the leg work. Pretty much what I expected. I still stand by 32:1 for a ported saw, no less than 40:1. I personally run 32:1 in everything. It's cheap insurance.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Thanks for doing the leg work. Pretty much what I expected. I still stand by 32:1 for a ported saw, no less than 40:1. I personally run 32:1 in everything. It's cheap insurance.


Totally agree. That was awesome reading


----------



## big t double

I do not hold your research in such high regard...to me, you sir, are another doucher that seems to have gotten away with starting yet another oil thread. Sure, you've peppered it with what is probably hours upon hours of research, emails, test cuts...yadda yadda...but I see right through it though. No matter how you spin this...it's an oil thread. Boom.


----------



## Andyshine77

maulhead said:


> As long as Randy does not mind,, here it is.
> 
> 12 full tanks were ran threw the saw, and I dumped most the 13th one out before shipping. 40:1 Ultra, 91 E free gas.
> 
> View attachment 416182
> 
> 
> I have little over 20 tanks on my 441, with Belray mixed at 32:1, looks nothing like that, not even close!!
> 
> 
> ..



Mtronic 441? I'd like to see the underside of the piston, that is a good indication of how hot the crown was getting.


----------



## MustangMike

Wow, that was a good read, nice work getting that info, and thanks for sharing.

Looking forward to the results of your testing. What the oil guy (IMO) seems to have left out is that addl oil increases compression, which can increase power, but I anxiously await your results.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

I think the biggest factor here is not the oil, but the fuel.
I can buy 91 non e and it won't be the same as the 91 non e that you buy 1/2 way across the country.
But if I buy H1R it's gonna be just like yours.

Id like to a test just like this... Oil based.... But use a fuel that is consistent across the country.
For instance, 100LL , VP SEF or similar 

Gnome sayin?


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> Thanks for doing the leg work. Pretty much what I expected. I still stand by 32:1 for a ported saw, no less than 40:1. I personally run 32:1 in everything. It's cheap insurance.



Oh I completely agree. *Ported* saw = More compression = displaces the oil more = need more oil to maintain same lube factor. 

Stock saw = less compression = less oil to maintain same lube factor.

But in any case if your going to use their (belray) product. Just ask them what they think. They seem really nice. Give them the engine size, compression your running and the rpm your running. 

From what I can tell, on paper (jaso iso flash point viscosity and so on) it's a superior product to Stihl ultra syn and a number of others out there. Maxima K2 looks good as well. 

update: weather blew in and I didn't get to do the test  Everything is setup though. So hoping for tomorrow.


----------



## maulhead

Adirondackstihl said:


> I think the biggest factor here is not the oil, but the fuel.
> I can buy 91 non e and it won't be the same as the 91 non e that you buy 1/2 way across the country.
> But if I buy H1R it's gonna be just like yours.
> 
> Id like to a test just like this... Oil based.... But use a fuel that is consistent across the country.
> For instance, 100LL , VP SEF or similar
> 
> Gnome sayin?



so you think it might have been the quality of gas (or lack of) I was using, and not the ultra oil, to cause that build up on my saw? (I poasted the pic of)

.


----------



## maulhead

Andyshine77 said:


> Mtronic 441? I'd like to see the underside of the piston, that is a good indication of how hot the crown was getting.



yes it is a Mtronic 441, but I am not pulling it apart to look under the piston. I pulled the muffler just to give the saw a good cleaning, and the top of the piston was nice and shinny no build up.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Adirondackstihl said:


> I think the biggest factor here is not the oil, but the fuel.
> I can buy 91 non e and it won't be the same as the 91 non e that you buy 1/2 way across the country.
> But if I buy H1R it's gonna be just like yours.
> 
> Id like to a test just like this... Oil based.... But use a fuel that is consistent across the country.
> For instance, 100LL , VP SEF or similar
> 
> Gnome sayin?



I would love to only use VP


----------



## steven stern

Sthil says to use 50:1 why would the engieners of a saw say to use an incorrect oil fuel mix?


----------



## gunnusmc03

It's not necessarily incorrect. For the engineered lifespan and emissions regulations its sufficient in Stihls eyes.

If you want the best possible chance of extending the life of your saw, use a ratio with more oil. Afterall it's cheap insurance.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

KenJax Tree said:


> I would love to only use VP


I cut for fun, not work.
5gal last me all year & that includes my Weedeater too


----------



## Adirondackstihl

steven stern said:


> Sthil says to use 50:1 why would the engieners of a saw say to use an incorrect oil fuel mix?


Three letters.......

EPA


----------



## redbull660

*Crap!!!*

thanks to a PM from another member. I just realized that I was reading the flash point of Stihl wrong. It's actually 222C *NOT 222 F So that would be 432F. SOO Belray is actually right in line with Stihl ultra syn on that spec. *I was still trying to figure out why Belray was so much higher than all the others I looked at including stihl. But actually Belray AND Stihl are way higher than the rest.

I still don't quite understand how important flash point is. But Belray being in line with Stihl is comforting. heh

*Flash points - *

Belray h1r - *395 F *
Stihl ultra syn - *432 F
*
Husky - *75C or 167 F* http://www.husqvarna.com/ddoc/huse/huse2010_euenapen/huse2010_euenapen_cms-s002_.pdf

woodland pro - *210 F * http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf

shindaiwa red armor - *163F* http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03

amsoil - *216 F* http://www.amsoil.com/msds/atp.pdf

lucus - *175 F* http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS-2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Snowmobile.pdf

motul 710 2t - *190 F* - https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/38/710 2T (GB).pdf?1324312083

motul 800 2t - *525 F* - https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77796/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Road_Racing_TDS_(GB).pdf?1379696151

maxima K2 - *240F* - http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/

maxima 927 - *420F* - http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/

Schaeffer's 9006 2t - *187F* - http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-msds.pdf

Klotz R50. - *550°F *

This is the most popular ones I've heard of. I'm sure there are others. But if you wanted to stay close to Stihl's 432 number, the only one's you'd consider trying so far would be the Belray H1R and the Maxima 927.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KenJax Tree said:


> I would love to only use VP



One of my buddys was pickin up some stuff for his blast cabinet he found on CL last week thats about 45 minutes from me and he saw a station that all the pumps all said VP on them..idk what the deal is with that , and hell would freeze over before i drive that far for gas once a week...but i never saw that before , he sent me a picture of the station but i think i deleted it..ever seen one before ?


----------



## RiverRat2

redbull660 said:


> belray 32:1 would be interesting to throw into the mix. But I don't know where to get it though.


Rocky Mountain ATV has the best price online


----------



## KenJax Tree

SAWMIKAZE said:


> One of my buddys was pickin up some stuff for his blast cabinet he found on CL last week thats about 45 minutes from me and he saw a station that all the pumps all said VP on them..idk what the deal is with that , and hell would freeze over before i drive that far for gas once a week...but i never saw that before , he sent me a picture of the station but i think i deleted it..ever seen one before ?


Nope not around here....i buy 91 octane E free gas now through November when the marina is open, its like 10 minutes away. But during the winter the best i can buy is E10 Shell VPower. I can get Cam2 race gas but i don't need 100 octane fuel and i don't want AvGas. But we burn through it fast enough so its not a problem but i use E free as often as i can.


----------



## steven stern

gunnusmc03 said:


> It's not necessarily incorrect. For the engineered lifespan and emissions regulations its sufficient in Stihls eyes.
> 
> If you want the best possible chance of extending the life of your saw, use a ratio with more oil. Afterall it's cheap insurance.


 will run 40:1 from now on. Thanks for the advice


----------



## KenJax Tree

steven stern said:


> will run 40:1 from now on. Thanks for the advice


Make it easy and go 42:1....3oz per gallon or 36:1....3.5oz per gallon....i like to keep it simple


----------



## Andyshine77

motul 800 RR 2t = 525°F
Focus more on film strength/viscosity than flash point.


----------



## Andyshine77

Motul 800 OR. Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 15.5 mm²/s

K2. Viscosity cSt @ 100°C 13.58 Flash Point 240°F 

Klotz R50. Viscosity @ 100°C 16.30 cSt Min 21.90 cSt Max 18.20 cSt Typical. Flash point 550°F 

Even then viscosity doesn't necessarily mean you will loose lubrication at those temperatures. It's easy to over think things, as none of are true experts on the subject. I've ran most of the oils you listed and a few you didn't, they all work fine. However I see less wear with the thick race oils, but they're not a must especially in weed whips or blowers.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> motul 800 2t = 525°F
> 
> Focus more on film strength/viscosity than flash point.


He had read the factor in Celsius again. Easy to make a mistake with all he has goin on but he is doin a great job. I myself think the lower flashpoints ignite more readily and produce a tad more energy. I think the 100% based ester oil have alot better film strength due to the ester molecules bonding themselves to the metal almost like a barrier


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> He had read the factor in Celsius again. Easy to make a mistake with all he has goin on but he is doin a great job. I myself think the lower flashpoints ignite more readily and produce a tad more energy. I think the 100% based ester oil have alot better film strength due to the ester molecules bonding themselves to the metal almost like a barrier



Very easy to get C and F mixed up. 

Doubt you get more energy with lower flash points, but who knows. Not only do the molecules bond with metal, they are super small/dense and even in size, they also penetrate into the metal a little.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't worry about the numbers anymore, i'm gonna keep using Lucas semi-synthetic 32:1 if something grenades so be it.


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't worry about the numbers anymore, i'm gonna keep using Lucas semi-synthetic 32:1 if something grenades so be it.



I just can't get away from how thin it is. If it works for you that's all that really matters.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Flash point on 800 2T is actually 485

https://m.motul.com/system/product_...Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420010

I think that ya'll will find 800 2T to be a far superior oil than most anything on the market.


----------



## Andyshine77

Adirondackstihl said:


> Flash point on 800 2T is actually 485
> 
> https://m.motul.com/system/product_...Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420010



Road racing is a little higher at 525°F Viscosity is also a bit higher 19.2 mm²/s. Both versions are honestly overkill in our saws. I like overkill.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

My buddy is a pro moto x & Sno x racer.
He also owns and operates a small off-road supply business. He's been on 2 wheels longer than he's been walking.
They've ran every oil you can of.
I went in a few years ago to get a qt of 927 or K2. He told me to leave that sh!t on the shelf and handed me a qt of 800 2T. Haven't used anything since.

06' Winter X Games


----------



## KenJax Tree

Man i don't know why i read this ****.......now you got me thinkin' again[emoji15]


----------



## CR888

blsnelling said:


> Thanks for doing the leg work. Pretty much what I expected. I still stand by 32:1 for a ported saw, no less than 40:1. I personally run 32:1 in everything. It's cheap insurance.


With the amount of mix l run through some of my saws each year, by not running expensive 100% ester oils leaves me enough money in my pocket to replace the entire saw. So l do not find expensive oil cheap insurance. lf your capable of cleaning a spark plug, piston crown and exhaust port occasionally their are far better oils to use than full synthetics in any case. There are SOME benefits to synthetics but the negatives far out way the positives. Why would you want to run an oil that promotes blow by in any case. Semi synthetics are where it is at kinda the best of both worlds. l know l go against the grain making this statement and sit in a flame suit as l write this post but there are just such better options out there to increase service life of a saw...full synthetics do quite the opposite (but they are clean). lt's simply a myth to believe they offer better protection. Marketing has a lot to do with this.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR888 said:


> With the amount of mix l run through some of my saws each year, by not running expensive 100% ester oils leaves me enough money in my pocket to replace the entire saw. So l do not find expensive oil cheap insurance. lf your capable of cleaning a spark plug, piston crown and exhaust port occasionally their are far better oils to use than full synthetics in any case. There are SOME benefits to synthetics but the negatives far out way the positives. Why would you want to run an oil that promotes blow by in any case. Semi synthetics are where it is at kinda the best of both worlds. l know l go against the grain making this statement and sit in a flame suit as l write this post but there are just such better options out there to increase service life of a saw...full synthetics do quite the opposite (but they are clean). lt's simply a myth to believe they offer better protection. Marketing has a lot to do with this.


So what do you use?


----------



## huskihl

CR888 said:


> With the amount of mix l run through some of my saws each year, by not running expensive 100% ester oils leaves me enough money in my pocket to replace the entire saw. So l do not find expensive oil cheap insurance. lf your capable of cleaning a spark plug, piston crown and exhaust port occasionally their are far better oils to use than full synthetics in any case. There are SOME benefits to synthetics but the negatives far out way the positives. Why would you want to run an oil that promotes blow by in any case. Semi synthetics are where it is at kinda the best of both worlds. l know l go against the grain making this statement and sit in a flame suit as l write this post but there are just such better options out there to increase service life of a saw...full synthetics do quite the opposite (but they are clean). lt's simply a myth to believe they offer better protection. Marketing has a lot to do with this.



Raise the price and they will come. Hahaha


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> With the amount of mix l run through some of my saws each year, by not running expensive 100% ester oils leaves me enough money in my pocket to replace the entire saw. So l do not find expensive oil cheap insurance. lf your capable of cleaning a spark plug, piston crown and exhaust port occasionally their are far better oils to use than full synthetics in any case. There are SOME benefits to synthetics but the negatives far out way the positives. Why would you want to run an oil that promotes blow by in any case. Semi synthetics are where it is at kinda the best of both worlds. l know l go against the grain making this statement and sit in a flame suit as l write this post but there are just such better options out there to increase service life of a saw...full synthetics do quite the opposite (but they are clean). lt's simply a myth to believe they offer better protection. Marketing has a lot to do with this.



Marketing plays a role in most things, now more than ever. With that said the benefits of Ester based or even PAO oils is not really arguable, the numbers alone tell a big part of the story. It's your equipment and you're free to use what you want, but to say their far better oils is simply false information. Comparable would be a better choice of words. I've seen the results and differences between syn and semi syn oils myself, there is no comparison IMHO. I actually find buying a gallon or 1/2 gallon of oil at a time not all that expensive. H1R is in fact one of the more expensive 2T oils you can buy at $68 a gallon.

Now lets get back on track and let the OP do his thing and see what happens.


----------



## KG441c

I like H1R but I dont use alota oil but I think the Lucas at Oreillys @ 9.99 qt. Would be just as good


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lucas works for me Keith, but i still have some 800 2T, K2, and H1R if i wanted to switch back.


----------



## KG441c

No more than I run ill stick with H1R in my ported saws but if I was using alota oil in a business Id stick with Lucas for the price. All my customers with stock equipment get a refill of e free mixed with Lucas at 50:1 and tuned there because I know thats what they will mix at. I recommend Lucas to all customers


----------



## Andyshine77

Mobil 1 2T was a great value, wish it was still available. Yamalube R-2 is a good value as well.


----------



## KG441c

I used yamalube in a yz250 I raced with very good results as well as the Honda hp2


----------



## Stihlman441

Andyshine77 said:


> Mobil 1 2T was a great value, wish it was still available. Yamalube R-2 is a good value as well.


 
Im still using the Mobil 1 2T Racing but its getting harder to get and not cheap.


----------



## Moparmyway

Adirondackstihl said:


> Flash point on 800 2T is actually 485
> 
> https://m.motul.com/system/product_...Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420010
> 
> I think that ya'll will find 800 2T to be a far superior oil than most anything on the market.


Yup, 800 2T was super clean when I looked through my borescope, but so was R50, H1R, and K2 .............. I haven't run enough Lucas yet, but some of the pictures of Hedgerows saw innards were convincing enough for me to get some.

I am running VP SEF, like you, and I think that is why we see 800 as virtually spotless.
I will be trying one of the oils in pump gas with ethanol so I can see what the same oil ratio from the same oil bottle does with VP vs pump E10 (allways tested at E15 or higher)


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Yup, 800 2T was super clean when I looked through my borescope, but so was R50, H1R, and K2 .............. I haven't run enough Lucas yet, but some of the pictures of Hedgerows saw innards were convincing enough for me to get some.
> 
> I am running VP SEF, like you, and I think that is why we see 800 as virtually spotless.
> I will be trying one of the oils in pump gas with ethanol so I can see what the same oil ratio from the same oil bottle does with VP vs pump E10 (allways tested at E15 or higher)


Ive been running 1/2 gallon Sunoco 110 with 1/2 gallon e free 87 mixed with 4oz of H1R. The higher octane probably isnt producing as much power as the 87 but the combination burns very clean


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> No more than I run ill stick with H1R in my ported saws but if I was using alota oil in a business Id stick with Lucas for the price. All my customers with stock equipment get a refill of e free mixed with Lucas at 50:1 and tuned there because I know thats what they will mix at. I recommend Lucas to all customers


I have a bunch of "regulars" and I had to rebuild a couple of saws due to me tuning with some E free gas. They went and filled up at the pump, mixed @ 32:1 with good oil and scored the crraaap out of their 2 saws they just got back from me. They were so lean that I thought they developed an air leak at first, but couldn't find anything wrong ............ retuned with pump ethanol after a new piston and rings, and they are still running good today

On customers saws or 2 cycle equipment, I fill and tune on pump gas with ethanol.
Better to have them tuned with what they will most likely be run with


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Ive been running 1/2 gallon Sunoco 110 with 1/2 gallon e free 87 mixed with 4oz of H1R. The higher octane probably isnt producing as much power as the 87 but the combination burns very clean


I was using 110LL as well, but didn't like the deposits it was leaving, plus I considered my little ones and decided that VP was just a little more $$ than the 110LL. My equipment runs WAY better on VP than it ever did on 110LL.

Try it one day .............. you might be surprised by the difference


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> I have a bunch of "regulars" and I had to rebuild a couple of saws due to me tuning with some E free gas. They went and filled up at the pump, mixed @ 32:1 with good oil and scored the crraaap out of their 2 saws they just got back from me. They were so lean that I thought they developed an air leak at first, but couldn't find anything wrong ............ retuned with pump ethanol after a new piston and rings, and they are still running good today
> 
> On customers saws or 2 cycle equipment, I fill and tune on pump gas with ethanol.
> Better to have them tuned with what they will most likely be run with


Ya I tell them all to buy the e free which is local in our area or to use sef and I also recommend the lucas for the quality and the price point.


----------



## MustangMike

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't worry about the numbers anymore, i'm gonna keep using Lucas semi-synthetic 32:1 if something grenades so be it.




Do you really use Lucas semi-synthetic?? Do ya??? Do ya ???? Hard to believe this is the same person who made fum of me for over mentioning HD-2 filters and dp muff covers!!!! Go mix some oil! I think I've seen you mention Lucas about 50 times already.


----------



## KG441c

MustangMike said:


> Do you really use Lucas semi-synthetic?? Do ya??? Do ya ???? Hard to believe this is the same person who made fum of me for over mentioning HD-2 filters and dp muff covers!!!! Go mix some oil! I think I've seen you mention Lucas about 50 times already.


Whoa!!! Lol!! U been drinkin Columbian Caffeine this morning!!


----------



## KG441c

Cmon Redbull!! Fire that 661 up!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

50 thats it?? I'm WAAAAY behind you.[emoji1] Maybe i should start to mention it in threads not even associated with oil to catch up[emoji6] actually i mixed 5 gallons of K2 today so....


----------



## KenJax Tree

MustangMike said:


> Do you really use Lucas semi-synthetic?? Do ya??? Do ya ???? Hard to believe this is the same person who made fum of me for over mentioning HD-2 filters and dp muff covers!!!! Go mix some oil! I think I've seen you mention Lucas about 50 times already.


QTLA[emoji1]


----------



## blsnelling

What?! You're not done yet????!!!!!!!!!


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> 50 thats it?? I'm WAAAAY behind you.[emoji1] Maybe i should start to mention it in threads not even associated with oil to catch up[emoji6] actually i mixed 5 gallons of K2 today so....View attachment 416375


I havent used k2 before Chris. Is it strong smelling when burning? I love the H1R and will live with it choking me I guess!! Lol!!


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> QTLA[emoji1]


What does QTLA mean ?


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Moparmyway said:


> What does QTLA mean ?


Quoted to like again


----------



## redbull660

ok boyz. heading to the site. beautiful looking day! Can't wait!


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> ok boyz. heading to the site. beautiful looking day! Can't wait!


U just woke up??!! Hurry up!! Lol!! Appreciate the work man


----------



## MustangMike

Nice avatar Keith.

Yea, it is days like this that make me think Tax Season is too long!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

2 weeks to go Mike[emoji3]


----------



## KG441c

Man ole Redbull must be workin that 661 today!! That H1R will make her purr but im not so sure about that Stihl oil!! Lol! The Stihl oil is bottled and packaged by Omni Corp. About 65 miles north of me


----------



## wyk

KenJax Tree said:


> Make it easy and go 42:1....3oz per gallon or 36:1....3.5oz per gallon....i like to keep it simple



I keep it simple with 150ML per 5 Litres.  The pumps here dispense litres, so it's very easy to make your mix even if it stops at an uneven number. Minimum octane at the pumps here is 95RON/92AKI.


----------



## wyk

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't worry about the numbers anymore, i'm gonna keep using Lucas semi-synthetic 32:1 if something grenades so be it.



I have been using anything from Oregon non synth to Woodland full synth to Stihl to HP standard to something I found at Halfords that was rebranded but claimed to be full synth to Maximma 927 to Castrol Racing Pro1 2t to blah blah blah. I use my saws professionally, and have been for years. Running at 43-1 and currently at 33:1, have never had any failures I could attribute to oiling issues. Most of those saws were ported. I currently have a ported 241CM that I have as a daily driver with a 17" bar running the castrol synth at 33:1, and I tore her down 4 times porting her over the span of a few months. She looked squeaky clean every time, and I do not baby that saw.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KenJax Tree said:


> Nope not around here....i buy 91 octane E free gas now through November when the marina is open, its like 10 minutes away. But during the winter the best i can buy is E10 Shell VPower. I can get Cam2 race gas but i don't need 100 octane fuel and i don't want AvGas. But we burn through it fast enough so its not a problem but i use E free as often as i can.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Thats awesome!!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

If im up that way ill grab some its in blairsville , its on the way to indiana university (IUP) and we go up sometimes because thats where my woman went to school , but im not makin a special trip.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KenJax Tree said:


> Thats awesome!!



Its pretty close to pittsburgh raceway , im assuming thats part of the reason its there


----------



## CR888

Andyshine77 said:


> Marketing plays a role in most things, now more than ever. With that said the benefits of Ester based or even PAO oils is not really arguable, the numbers alone tell a big part of the story. It's your equipment and you're free to use what you want, but to say their far better oils is simply false information. Comparable would be a better choice of words. I've seen the results and differences between syn and semi syn oils myself, there is no comparison IMHO. I actually find buying a gallon or 1/2 gallon of oil at a time not all that expensive. H1R is in fact one of the more expensive 2T oils you can buy at $68 a gallon.
> 
> Now lets get back on track and let the OP do his thing and see what happens.


Well the old castor bean is actually what any oil gets compared against as far as lubricating properties, but what the hell would l know. Everyone seems to only care about one factor with oils and that is how clean they burn. Ever wondered why stihl ultra has a worse jaso rating than stihls semi synthetic?? Ever wondered why HR1 has no jaso rating on bottle?? l suppose they can't afford it right??lol lt's like going into a church and convincing the congregation that God doesn't exist. lt's going to be a battle no matter what the actual facts are. l use a generic semi synthetic fd oil, that is a third of the cost of the big name man made 100% ester based blow by causing stuff. Whats not in an oil can be far more important than what is in it. l would use an fb dino oil any day of the week over 100% ester base full synth oil. Try this, get the cheapest oil on the shelf, mix to same ratio you use and see how much easier your *** is to start and get warm. Try it! I am not saying full synth oils don't have 'some' advantages what l am saying is the negatives far far out way the positives.


----------



## CR888

Another thing to consider is, we all talk about l use this xxx oil mixed at xxx ratio and have done so for xxx years without any failures....right. When was the last time you or anyone on AS had a failure DIRECTLY related to oil quality?? No oil yes, lean tune sieze yes, not enough oil yes, but l have NEVER seen a failure directly related to quality of oil. Proove me wrong and find one....go on. But you will have to proove it directly relates to quality of oil!


----------



## Andyshine77

Easier to start?? I think you may have some tuning issues.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> Another thing to consider is, we all talk about l use this xxx oil mixed at xxx ratio and have done so for xxx years without any failures....right. When was the last time you or anyone on AS had a failure DIRECTLY related to oil quality?? No oil yes, lean tune sieze yes, not enough oil yes, but l have NEVER seen a failure directly related to quality of oil. Proove me wrong and find one....go on. But you will have to proove it directly relates to quality of oil!



I never thought I'd see anyone get butt hurt over oil. Seriously man take it easy.


----------



## bikemike

Moparmyway said:


> What does QTLA mean ?


Quite the little asz


----------



## PES+

CR888 said:


> Another thing to consider is, we all talk about l use this xxx oil mixed at xxx ratio and have done so for xxx years without any failures....right. When was the last time you or anyone on AS had a failure DIRECTLY related to oil quality?? No oil yes, lean tune sieze yes, not enough oil yes, but l have NEVER seen a failure directly related to quality of oil. Proove me wrong and find one....go on. But you will have to proove it directly relates to quality of oil!


In certain instances of damage from carbon buildup would you not consider oil as a factor or just blame the fuel?


----------



## Adirondackstihl

My stuff starts way easier with VP & Motul then it ever did when I was running auto gas & HP.
Fuel related? Probably.

But if there are so many negatives, can you name a few?


----------



## bikemike

CR888 said:


> Well the old castor bean is actually what any oil gets compared against as far as lubricating properties, but what the hell would l know. Everyone seems to only care about one factor with oils and that is how clean they burn. Ever wondered why stihl ultra has a worse jaso rating than stihls semi synthetic?? Ever wondered why HR1 has no jaso rating on bottle?? l suppose they can't afford it right??lol lt's like going into a church and convincing the congregation that God doesn't exist. lt's going to be a battle no matter what the actual facts are. l use a generic semi synthetic fd oil, that is a third of the cost of the big name man made 100% ester based blow by causing stuff. Whats not in an oil can be far more important than what is in it. l would use an fb dino oil any day of the week over 100% ester base full synth oil. Try this, get the cheapest oil on the shelf, mix to same ratio you use and see how much easier your *** is to start and get warm. Try it! I am not saying full synth oils don't have 'some' advantages what l am saying is the negatives far far out way the positives.


Well one thing about the synthetic is it not so good to use for breaking inn an engine. Too slippery were parts need to be polished and rings dont seat as well as the good old smokey cheep oil


----------



## bikemike

PES+ said:


> In certain instances of damage from carbon buildup would you not consider oil as a factor or just blame the fuel?


Id blame fuel for the hard nasty piston scoring carbon. The oil carbon is more like goo vs fuel carbon that is hard like rocks. 2 or 4 stroke


----------



## PES+

If you can reduce wear and not build up carbon is that not a good idea?


----------



## Andyshine77

Syn oil is not more slippery than conventional oil!! it's more stable, has better shear strength under heat and pressure, has uniform molecules, and esters oils penetrate and clings to metal.


----------



## PES+

bikemike said:


> Id blame fuel for the hard nasty piston scoring carbon. The oil carbon is more like goo vs fuel carbon that is hard like rocks. 2 or 4 stroke


I beg to differ....take a bunch of oils and heat them up over their flash points for a while and see whats leftover

Meant just under flashpoint....derp


----------



## bikemike

reindeer said:


> I have been using anything from Oregon non synth to Woodland full synth to Stihl to HP standard to something I found at Halfords that was rebranded but claimed to be full synth to Maximma 927 to Castrol Racing Pro1 2t to blah blah blah. I use my saws professionally, and have been for years. Running at 43-1 and currently at 33:1, have never had any failures I could attribute to oiling issues. Most of those saws were ported. I currently have a ported 241CM that I have as a daily driver with a 17" bar running the castrol synth at 33:1, and I tore her down 4 times porting her over the span of a few months. She looked squeaky clean every time, and I do not baby that saw.


I concur. Whats a spark plug or to burn of a spark screen. More oil more lube longer engine life. Phuck all that 50 to 1 crap. Especially on a new engine. Work em long and hard yeah youl be glad it stays lubed and slippery. Like a woman.


----------



## KenJax Tree

If Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. come from the assembly line and break in with synthetic oil why can't a chainsaw?


----------



## bikemike

PES+ said:


> I beg to differ....take a bunch of oils and heat them up over their flash points for a while and see whats leftover


Oh you talking like waist oil heaters? Yeah they burn cleaner than a old car with a stuck choke or float


----------



## bikemike

KenJax Tree said:


> If Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. come from the assembly line and break in with synthetic oil why can't a chainsaw?


They are also bench breakinn .before they are even put in the chassis.


----------



## PES+

bikemike said:


> Oh you talking like waist oil heaters? Yeah they burn cleaner than a old car with a stuck choke or float


If you coul get it all to burn like a waste oil heater it would not be an issue as much.....more like slow roast the oil then get it real hot and see.

Once the carbon becomes a solid instead of burning it becomes a problem


----------



## bikemike

PES+ said:


> If you can reduce wear and not build up carbon is that not a good idea?


Oh i love the synthetic oils and use them all the time even in the 1950's saws but now im prolly a dumb azz for that too huh. Yeah i said more oil is a good thing and i did say i dont like synthetic for a break inn oil. If all of you are saying dont run more oil cuase youl get a build up of carbon. Well do you use 50 to 1 if thats what the manual calls for? Most likely yes you do. Read through and se if ur owner manuals also say what services required after certain amount of hours like grease clutch bearing. Or change fuel filter well im shure it also says replace ur screen and remove carbon from exhaust port. So if you do get some build up with this oil that oil this amount of oil vs that amount of oil you still have shart to clean up


----------



## CR888

:


Andyshine77 said:


> I never thought I'd see anyone get butt hurt over oil. Seriously man take it easy.


l am not hurt at all, you got any failure you care to discuss? Having trouble with that one are'nt you! lf no one gets personal l will elaborate on some negatives associated with full synthetics for the benefit of the wider community. l suggest you keep your mind open in order to understand. l know you are no dill Andy and l know the challenge l face convincing closed minds but l am happy to take the time to discuss the pro's/con's associated with oils. And yes l can tune two cycle carbs, l did not require your youtube vid for that!lol


----------



## bikemike

PES+ said:


> If you coul get it all to burn like a waste oil heater it would not be an issue as much.....more like slow roast the oil then get it real hot and see.
> 
> Once the carbon becomes a solid instead of burning it becomes a problem


Well you did say above the flash point right?


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> l am not hurt at all, you got any failure you care to discuss? Having trouble with that one are'nt you! lf no one gets personal l will elaborate on some negatives associated with full synthetics for the benefit of the wider community. l suggest you keep your mind open in order to understand. l know you are no dill Andy and l know the challenge l face convincing closed minds but l am happy to take the time to discuss the pro's/con's associated with oils. And yes l can tune two cycle carbs, l did not require your youtube vid for that!lol



I am all ears. Keep in mind I've done more research on the subject than I would like to admit, I simply doubt you have any information on the subject that I haven't already learned. However I'm always open to new information. 

Can you explain the starting issues you had with syn oils? that one is new to me.


----------



## bikemike

CR888 said:


> :
> l am not hurt at all, you got any failure you care to discuss? Having trouble with that one are'nt you! lf no one gets personal l will elaborate on some negatives associated with full synthetics for the benefit of the wider community. l suggest you keep your mind open in order to understand. l know you are no dill Andy and l know the challenge l face convincing closed minds but l am happy to take the time to discuss the pro's/con's associated with oils. And yes l can tune two cycle carbs, l did not require your youtube vid for that!lol


Ok you got my attention with thinking outside the box instead of being a dog on a leash following one master


----------



## PES+

bikemike said:


> Oh i love the synthetic oils and use them all the time even in the 1950's saws but now im prolly a dumb azz for that too huh. Yeah i said more oil is a good thing and i did say i dont like synthetic for a break inn oil. If all of you are saying dont run more oil cuase youl get a build up of carbon. Well do you use 50 to 1 if thats what the manual calls for? Most likely yes you do. Read through and se if ur owner manuals also say what services required after certain amount of hours like grease clutch bearing. Or change fuel filter well im shure it also says replace ur screen and remove carbon from exhaust port. So if you do get some build up with this oil that oil this amount of oil vs that amount of oil you still have shart to clean up


I never considered nor implied you were dumb.

If you run 50 to 1 I retract my prediction. 

You will have more wear than if you used more oil.

If I gave that impression it was not intended.....many people use more oil to reduce wear and it does in fact do that but there are trade offs with
regulations here and many 2 strokes call for more oil in other countries as it helps with wear but they are usually less restrictive exhaust wise.


----------



## bikemike

Andyshine77 said:


> I am all ears.
> 
> Can you explain the starting issues you had with syn oils? that one is new to me.


I have had easier starts with syn oils thick or thin mix. Id say starting issues would be more like weak spark or some extra fuel sitting in the case flooding on a start or vac issues.


----------



## CR888

PES+ said:


> In certain instances of damage from carbon buildup would you not consider oil as a factor or just blame the fuel?


lt can be either, a carb tuned to rich or a mix ratio to rich. One culprit also is how operators use their ***, lots of idle, half throttle ect. Carbon is mainly evil to those not rehearsed in removing/checking for it. Don't forget 99.9% of 2cycle equiptment users don't do the maintenence that enthusiasts do, they just run their two cylces as set up from dealer and only check things after a failure has occured and for this reason full synthetics come into play leaving combustion chambers, pistons, sparkplugs cleaner with less build up. That is the main reason oem's reccommend them, not for their lubricating properties.


----------



## bikemike

PES+ said:


> I never considered nor implied you were dumb.
> 
> 
> If I gave that impression it was not intended.....many people use more oil to reduce wear and it does in fact do that but there are trade offs with
> regulations here and many 2 strokes call for more oil in other countries as it helps with wear but they are usually less restrictive exhaust wise.


Well when it comes to only 50 to 1 mix i have seen a few concrete saws in very sad shape with jugs bearings and all internals. But im not the guy mixing up the fuel and they do run in very nasty conditions. But i do know thats all the company uses is stihl synthetic.


----------



## PES+

bikemike said:


> Well you did say above the flash point right?


Yes I edited that brain lapse in that post I meant just under


----------



## bikemike

PES+ said:


> I never considered nor implied you were dumb.
> 
> If you run 50 to 1 I retract my prediction.
> 
> You will have more wear than if you used more oil.
> 
> If I gave that impression it was not intended.....many people use more oil to reduce wear and it does in fact do that but there are trade offs with
> regulations here and many 2 strokes call for more oil in other countries as it helps with wear but they are usually less restrictive exhaust wise.


Epa is a big reason for leaner oil mix and saws being on the lean side off the show room or out the box. How many saws whips blowers or whatever is tuneable is fattend up to run better make more power and not burn up exhaust side of piston. Its not bigger or more free flow exhaust if so we would be ordering parts from other countries to have a stock muff without having to mm them


----------



## PES+

The sound regulations are what had made the exhausts restrctive first and started the need for less oil the emissions issue came after the sound levels to a certain degree.

And yes you can order less restrictive mufflers from other countries still for some 2 stroke products but this is ending fast as environment regulations increase around the world.


----------



## CR888

Andyshine77 said:


> I am all ears. Keep in mind I've done more research on the subject than I would like to admit, I simply doubt you have any information on the subject that I haven't already learned. However I'm always open to new information.
> 
> Can you explain the starting issues you had with syn oils? that one is new to me.


lt's not so much starting issues, just easier starting. For example once the carb is primed through purge or pump, you run choke till you get you 'pop' then switch to fast idle (if its got it) and pull till it starts. Once running you may find the need to blip throttle as engine is no warm to prevent stalling. You will finds in this state full synthetic's need more throttle attention to keep going untill things warm up. Try it! lt's not hard to varify, you will get it with experimentation. Try it on your hardest starting two cylce. This has nothing to do with tune. lts like when using semi stale fuel things get harder to start. Similar symtoms. Any failures you have found yet that we could discuss directly related to oil quality yet?


----------



## bikemike

I dont care about emissions and epa. I start my bon fires with old motor oil. Il run 40 to 1 all day at the minimum on any 2 stroke im not afraid to replace a plug or torch a screen. But im shure not going to run a engine lean on oil 
If i was a rich environmentalists then yeah i would do the 100 to 1 mix and buy a new saw every so often. But im not rich. And being a wrench head i cant kill a good engine.


----------



## CR888

Gotta run for a bit, but will be back to discuss things a bit later. Damm CAD, l just bought another saw l think, a little reah handle 150.


----------



## PES+

bikemike said:


> I dont care about emissions and epa. I start my bon fires with old motor oil. Il run 40 to 1 all day at the minimum on any 2 stroke im not afraid to replace a plug or torch a screen. But im shure not going to run a engine lean on oil
> If i was a rich environmentalists then yeah i would do the 100 to 1 mix and buy a new saw every so often. But im not rich. And being a wrench head i cant kill a good engine.


Dang...now I retract my retraction.

It may never be an issue for you but depending on conditions and application carbon may become a problem in a 2 cycle for you.

Funny you mention 100 to 1 as I have torn down a few that people have run that and they were spotless clean but worn out bearings....no carbon


----------



## redbull660

back. long azz day. uploading. this is going to take most of the night. I'll get up and work on it from time to time tonight to keep progress rolling and this produced hopefully by morning.


----------



## BlueLude2001

Whoa wait… we're supposed to be adding oil to the chainsaws gas? Awe man. Be right back.  


Looking forward to the results of the test though. I'll be Switching out the 50:1 Stihl HP to 40:1 H1R this weekend.


----------



## KenJax Tree

BlueLude2001 said:


> Whoa wait… we're supposed to be adding oil to the chainsaws gas? Awe man. Be right back.
> 
> 
> Looking forward to the results of the test though. I'll be Switching out the 50:1 Stihl HP to 40:1 H1R this weekend.


 No thats what the oil tank is for, the oil is injected into the fuel.


----------



## bikemike

It may never be an issue for you but depending on conditions and application carbon may become a problem in a 2 cycle for you.

Funny you mention 100 to 1 as I have torn down a few that people have run that and they were spotless clean but worn out bearings....no carbon[/QUOTE] bet it was dry too. Nothin to hold back moisture during seasonal storage. Id get wore out too if my piston went like crazy in her cylinder with minimal amount of lube and the balls getting loose. The wetter the better


----------



## Marshy

CR888 said:


> lt can be either, a carb tuned to rich or a mix ratio to rich. One culprit also is how operators use their ***, lots of idle, half throttle ect. Carbon is mainly evil to those not rehearsed in removing/checking for it. Don't forget 99.9% of 2cycle equiptment users don't do the maintenence that enthusiasts do, they just run their two cylces as set up from dealer and only check things after a failure has occured and for this reason full synthetics come into play leaving combustion chambers, pistons, sparkplugs cleaner with less build up. *That is the main reason oem's reccommend them, not for their lubricating properties*.


I disagree. They lubricate better and are cleaner burning. WIN WIN


----------



## bikemike

KenJax Tree said:


> No thats what the oil tank is for, the oil is injected into the fuel.


2 cycle bar oil is the best thing since saw chain


----------



## PES+

bikemike said:


> I dont care about emissions and epa. I start my bon fires with old motor oil. Il run 40 to 1 all day at the minimum on any 2 stroke im not afraid to replace a plug or torch a screen. But im shure not going to run a engine lean on oil
> If i was a rich environmentalists then yeah i would do the 100 to 1 mix and buy a new saw every so often. But im not rich. And being a wrench head i cant kill a good engine.


I used to lean your way quite a bit until ethanol came then I saw the oil issue hands on over again like when the first mbte fuels hit


bikemike said:


> It may never be an issue for you but depending on conditions and application carbon may become a problem in a 2 cycle for you.
> 
> Funny you mention 100 to 1 as I have torn down a few that people have run that and they were spotless clean but worn out bearings....no carbon


 bet it was dry too. Nothin to hold back moisture during seasonal storage. Id get wore out too if my piston went like crazy in her cylinder with minimal amount of lube and the balls getting loose. The wetter the better[/QUOTE]


Oddly only one bad big end bearing...it wore out the main bearings.

I was talking more about the piston crown being like out of the box shiny clean in all of them....no carbon with so little oil in those cases.


----------



## cuttinties

PES+ said:


> In certain instances of damage from carbon buildup would you not consider oil as a factor or just blame the fuel?


Idle time, tune and operating temperature is going to affect carbon build up too. There's more variables than a guy can shake a stick at in chainsaws.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> lt's not so much starting issues, just easier starting. For example once the carb is primed through purge or pump, you run choke till you get you 'pop' then switch to fast idle (if its got it) and pull till it starts. Once running you may find the need to blip throttle as engine is no warm to prevent stalling. You will finds in this state full synthetic's need more throttle attention to keep going untill things warm up. Try it! lt's not hard to varify, you will get it with experimentation. Try it on your hardest starting two cylce. This has nothing to do with tune. lts like when using semi stale fuel things get harder to start. Similar symtoms. Any failures you have found yet that we could discuss directly related to oil quality yet?



It has everything to do with tune. I have never had a hard starting 2 cycle engine, that was in prooper running condition in the 25 some years I've been running ***. Take no offense, but it is clear you're out of your depth.

I thought you were at least going to bring up the corrosion issues some early 2T syn oils had, or the issues with rubber deterioration. All of which is a thing of the past, well unless you run Some Klotz products like original TechniPlate or Super TechniPlate.


----------



## cuttinties

I'm not too interested in the whole "oil thread" hoopla but I'll say this. I've had top ends off of a lot of saws that have been run on many different oils and ratios. 3 things play bigger roles in most average saw deaths: dull chains, dirty air filters and poor tune. If someone wants to help save saws from death start a chain thread or best air filter thread. Concentrate more on learning proper tuning techniques and how a dull or sharp chain will affect that. Understand that a dirty air filter or poor condition air filter will defeat any 32:1 or 50:1 mix that's made today. Worry more about those things and more saws will live a happy life.


----------



## bikemike

CR888 said:


> Gotta run for a bit, but will be back to discuss things a bit later. Damm CAD, l just bought another saw l think, a little reah handle 150.


Why not the bad azz ms 170. 8,000 rpm yeah that one guy stihlwontstart got me recommending that saw lol.


----------



## cuttinties

32:1 with the best fuel won't defeat this 







50:1 with a great tune won't beat this


----------



## bikemike

cuttinties said:


> I'm not too interested in the whole "oil thread" hoopla but I'll say this. I've had top ends off of a lot of saws that have been run on many different oils and ratios. 3 things play bigger roles in most average saw deaths: dull chains, dirty air filters and poor tune. If someone wants to help save saws from death start a chain thread or best air filter thread. Concentrate more on learning proper tuning techniques and how a dull or sharp chain will affect that. Understand that a dirty air filter or poor condition air filter will defeat any 32:1 or 50:1 mix that's made today. Worry more about those things and more saws will live a happy life.


Darn it. I like crappy bars n chain on crappy crapsmans. But the filters are still good. Got to use mine cutting tree roots for the neighbor. The engine will be on a scooter or drift trike soon.


----------



## PES+

cuttinties said:


> 32:1 with the best fuel won't defeat this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 50:1 with a great tune won't beat this



No can't argue that point


----------



## bikemike

cuttinties said:


> 32:1 with the best fuel won't defeat this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 50:1 with a great tune won't beat this


That looks fast i bet its a race saw. Never mind its missing crome valve covers and cold air intake


----------



## Trx250r180

What kind of oil caps do you guys like ?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> What kind of oil caps do you guys like ?



The twisty flip screw in kind..


----------



## PES+

Realized I am posting in an oil thread....

done now but interested in the results.


----------



## Marshy

So I have a general question about this here test. Regarding running a stopwatch, do you think the difference in cutting speed between each test ratio will exceed the reaction time of the person holding the watch? Reaction time can be as high as half a second... Why not just run the saw on a dyno to prove which makes the best power..?


----------



## redbull660

yes the times exceeded more than half a sec difference.  

2am alarm. starting more up loads. heh


----------



## CR888

Andyshine77 said:


> It has everything to do with tune. I have never had a hard starting 2 cycle engine, that was in prooper running condition in the 25 some years I've been running ***. Take no offense, but it is clear you're out of your depth.
> 
> I thought you were at least going to bring up the corrosion issues some early 2T syn oils had, or the issues with rubber deterioration. All of which is a thing of the past, well unless you run Some Klotz products like original TechniPlate or Super TechniPlate.


Well its a quite well documented fact that corrosion issues take place in the off season for motorcross/marine applications due to synthetics attracting moisture due to the hygroscopic nature of them. As l said we will elaborate in depth what l consider the mistruths surrounding synthetics. Believe me there is quite a lot to talk about. l am just busy doing a number of things atm. Maybe soon we can also elaborate exactly who is out of their depth.


----------



## Marshy

CR888 said:


> Well its a quite well documented fact that corrosion issues take place in the off season for motorcross/marine applications due to synthetics attracting moisture due to the hygroscopic nature of them. As l said we will elaborate in depth what l consider the mistruths surrounding synthetics. Believe me there is quite a lot to talk about. l am just busy doing a number of things atm. Maybe soon we can also elaborate exactly who is out of their depth.


 When you have the time, please post the supporting documented proof as well.


----------



## ChoppyChoppy

Not "all" firewood guys...




chevybob said:


> It's funny all the firewood guys and saw builders worry so much about fuel and oil. In the tree business nobody pays attention to what kind of oil they are using or where the fuel came from. They (not me I'm a bit more anal about my saws) just mix whatever they got at 50:1 and run those saws everyday year after year and never have problems. It seems the guys who screw around with their saws too much are the ones who have issues. I don't do too much I just make sure to use fresh gas and always run Husqvarna oil at 40:1 and keep my filters clean and saws in tune.
> 
> And plugs can't forget fresh spark plugs every season.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> It has everything to do with tune. I have never had a hard starting 2 cycle engine, that was in prooper running condition in the 25 some years I've been running ***. Take no offense, but it is clear you're out of your depth.
> 
> I thought you were at least going to bring up the corrosion issues some early 2T syn oils had, or the issues with rubber deterioration. All of which is a thing of the past, well unless you run Some Klotz products like original TechniPlate or Super TechniPlate.



I thought original techniplate is what they used for flush gas after the alcohol or methanol mix? There's one more that doesn't have rust protection that I've used and can't remember now which one it was.


----------



## bikemike

SAWMIKAZE said:


> The twisty flip screw in kind..


Twist caps less moving parts to break


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> I thought original techniplate is what they used for flush gas after the alcohol or methanol mix? There's one more that doesn't have rust protection that I've used and can't remember now which one it was.



Original mixes with alcohol, but offers little corrosion resistance, and is not recommend as a storage oil. With that said quite a few people here have used it for many years, without any evidence of corrosion. R50 on the other hand is an ideal storage oil.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> Well its a quite well documented fact that corrosion issues take place in the off season for motorcross/marine applications due to synthetics attracting moisture due to the hygroscopic nature of them. As l said we will elaborate in depth what l consider the mistruths surrounding synthetics. Believe me there is quite a lot to talk about. l am just busy doing a number of things atm. Maybe soon we can also elaborate exactly who is out of their depth.



30+ years ago it was a problem. Again some of the older products are not recommend as storage lubricants, original tech and some Red line products. 

You seem to have plenty of time to post, so please enlighten us with the facts you're trying to gather while I type. But what do I known my saws won't stat, darn synthetic oils.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> Original mixes with alcohol, but offers little corrosion resistance, and is not recommend as a storage oil. With that said quite a few people here have used it for many years, without any evidence of corrosion. R50 on the other hand is an ideal storage oil.


I never knew that original doesn't have any protection. I used it for a year or so after I switched from ultra. I used a gallon of the mix but don't have any of the same saws from then to check.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> 30 years ago it was a problem. Again some of the older products are not recommend as storage lubricants, original tech and some Red line products.
> 
> You seem to have plenty of time to post, so please enlighten us with the facts you're trying to gather while I type. But what do I known my saws won't stat, darn synthetic oils.


Lol! All my saws start really good with H1R


----------



## Mastermind

I'm gonna run Belray H1R 32:1 no matter what any test "proves".....

I've been inside a chit ton on saw engines. When I pull one down that's been ran on less, or "cheaper" oil, I don't like what I see. Yeah, with my own eyes. 

I've used K2, Motul, Mobil 2T, and H1R. They are all great oils. But at any ratio less than 32:1, I'd feel as though I was cheaping out on the level of protection.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna run Belray H1R 32:1 no matter what any test "proves".....
> 
> I've been inside a chit ton on saw engines. When I pull one down that's been ran on less, or "cheaper" oil, I don't like what I see. Yeah, with my own eyes.
> 
> I've used K2, Motul, Mobil 2T, and H1R. They are all great oils. But at any ratio less than 32:1, I'd feel as though I was cheaping out on the level of protection.


X2! Even when I mix a customers saw at 50to1 Im thinking the whole time this son of a gun is gonna fry!!!! Lol!!


----------



## Trx250r180

So is maxima 927 castor ,more for water cooled vs air cooled ? Anyone know ? I have a quart of the stuff i was wanting to use up .


----------



## KenJax Tree

Maxima 927 is probably the best oil period. Its fine for air cooled. Mix it with VP C12 and smell it[emoji7]


----------



## mdavlee

I used a whole quart of 927 in a 395 milling in a couple days. I guess it got hot enough to not cause a mess inside. Seems the milling saws don't have deposits like a firewood saw.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> I used a whole quart of 927 in a 395 milling in a couple days. I guess it got hot enough to not cause a mess inside. Seems the milling saws don't have deposits like a firewood saw.


My 250r's always had a black gooey tailpipe with 927 ,but i never had an engine fail with it ,jetting was perfect also so it was not too rich


----------



## blsnelling

I run 927 in my piped 390. It's spotless every time I tear it down.


----------



## redbull660

- special thanks to Trx250r180 for providing some H1R.

- Method (cuz someone will ask)...

1. start with 50:1 stihl ultra in tank + bar + used chain.
2. make some cuts to warm up saw
3. take bar off, clean grooves in bar, put new .404 RS chain on.
4. start saw, check tension, retension.
5. clean air filter, top off 50:1 gas, top off oil. start saw
6. do cotton wood test cut, turn off saw, hurriedly grab camera and thermo, take temps
7. restart saw to keep warm. grab camera, thermo, running saw...walk over to other log.
8. do 2nd cut, turn off saw, hurriedly grab camera and thermo take temps.

9. now dump out 50:1 gas completely back into gas can
10. fill up with 40:1 gas
11. do cuts with old chain to get 40:1 gas into the system.
12. shut off saw, clean air filter, top off 40:1 gas, Top off oil.
13. take old chain off, take bar off, clean bar grooves, put on new chain for 40:1 test cut.
14. start saw, check tension, retension, start saw do 40:1 cuts....repeat repeat repeat. Every test was done exactly like the above.








few things...

- not what I expected!

- Both Stihl 50:1 & 40:1, seem to start off cooler (after 1 cut) , but then gets approx 10-15 F hotter than belray 50:1 and 42:1 on the 2nd cuts. While the belray 50:1 and 42:1 seem to get to temp faster but basically it stays at that temp. I like this about belray.

- I'd have to say based on the #s 32:1 just doesn't seem to work as good in a stock saw. Maybe it works better in a ported saw because of the higher compression? But a drop of 3-4 secs vs 42:1 and temps creeping up, that's pretty clear if you ask me. As to Why it worked out this way? I don't know...there is a happy medium of oil and gas in every 2 cycle and for this particular saw, 32:1 H1R isn't it!. Maybe the 661 was designed around 50:1?

- On the 2nd cut with the belray 50:1 I had a good 3 second hang up so that is why I put 32.8. So it appears that belray 50:1 and stihl 50:1 were the fastest. But I'd take the belray (even though I think it smells! lol). Based on what I've read and the specs of H1R vs Stihl ultra, I have little doubt that the Belray wouldn't provide better lube/maintaining the oil film.

- The 40:1 Stihl was clearly slower but ran same temps.

- Based on the results -

I'm thinking Belray H1R 45:1 would be interesting to try out. Maybe Stihl 50:1 vs belray 50:1 vs belray 45:1 with more cuts. Stihl just to compare. I'm sold on the belray. Question for me is the ratio. 45:1 looks like a happy medium and you can split the bottle in 3 equal parts (125ml/4.25oz) and it make 45:1 = 1.5 gal.


Here are the numbers laid out.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

two questions here: is stihl ultra not all it is hyped up to be? what about just running moto-mix all time? we sell that stuff, it seems, by the pallet load these days. i can get a heck of a deal on the 1 gallon cans. i had always ran ultra at 40:1, maybe motomix is better?


----------



## redbull660

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> two questions here: is stihl ultra not all it is hyped up to be? what about just running moto-mix all time? we sell that stuff, it seems, by the pallet load these days. i can get a heck of a deal on the 1 gallon cans. i had always ran ultra at 40:1, maybe motomix is better?



when in doubt, test it out!


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

never had an issue with ultra @ 40:1. motomix would be nice though, no mixing. i usually run a little through my edger and blowers with i am done with them for the winter. always just run saws dry to store them.


----------



## porsche965

Thanks for taking the time to do the testing. 

I've always felt that the lighter ratio oil mixes had more "snap." But having a heavier oil content ensures the saws longevity. I'm sticking with 42:1. Never had a failure on most all ported saws yet.


----------



## redbull660

porsche965 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to do the testing.
> 
> I've always felt that the lighter ratio oil mixes had more "snap." But having a heavier oil content ensures the saws longevity. I'm sticking with 42:1. Never had a failure on most all ported saws yet.




I wouldn't argue with that at all. Ported saw = more compression. After I explained the compression differences between the ported and stock saws...ie. like 170 vs 200+. he said he'd opt for the 42:1 in the stock saw. 

It certainly would be interesting to test 32:1 vs 40-42:1 in a ported saw.


----------



## porsche965

It certainly would be interesting to test 32:1 vs 40-42:1 in a ported saw.[/QUOTE]

Yes that would. I'm surprised 45 minutes has gone by and there aren't a lot more posts. Everyone must be in deep thought from this video


----------



## KenJax Tree

They're all mixing new fuel and changing their oil ratios.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I put probably 100 tanks of fuel through a 346 i had that was ported at 50:1 and nothin ever went wrong , and the dude i sold it to still uses it quite a bit....if it wasnt for this internet stuff i would've never switched..


----------



## mdavlee

Interesting results. I'm surprised the cut times got slower with more oil. Karts make more power with 16:1


----------



## KenJax Tree

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I put probably 100 tanks of fuel through a 346 i had that was ported at 50:1 and nothin ever went wrong , and the dude i sold it to still uses it quite a bit....if it wasnt for this internet stuff i would've never switched..



Hell the Mexican's i work with just buy the shitty no name 2 stroke oil at the gas station in the morning. I don't even know if they measure anything they just fill the can and pour in the oil and they're off.......never have any problems.


----------



## Mastermind

KenJax Tree said:


> They're all mixing new fuel and changing their oil ratios.




I'm not.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> Interesting results. I'm surprised the cut times got slower with more oil. Karts make more power with 16:1


Think the higher compression making more heat likes the richer oil mixture ?


----------



## blsnelling

I run 32:1 for the protection. The rest of the chips can fall where they may.


----------



## Westboastfaller

Definitely would agree with more snap like pulling over a saw that you just put together with 2 stroke oil, its got extra drag same principle although exaggerated, I would think. I think single rings are snapier too as there is less surface in contact with the walls.


----------



## traktorz

Doesn't the richer oil mixture than 2% cause the piston top and the spark plug dark as a coal cellar, and the muffler outlet dripping of oil? 
Does the AutoTune/M-Tronic minimizes the carbon build-up, even with oil mixtures at 1:40 & 1:33?


----------



## Andyshine77

Again thanks for taking the time, and putting in the effort. The result are interesting, but by no means definitive. I expected a slight increase in temperature, but not a noticeable difference in power. My question is how quickly or accurately the system adjusted fuel flow? 

As we knew going into this they're would be many uncontrolled variables. Nevertheless excellent test!!


----------



## porsche965

Since oil molecules are thicker and less volatile than fuel molecules would it be possible that an engine would have more resistance past a certain point of PPM (parts per million) of safe effectiveness of lubrication that the oil actually becomes a hindrance to revolutions per minute (rpm)?

I remember seeing some performance guys finding the sweet spot of oil level within their engines so that the crankshafts, connecting rods and bearings were just in the oil enough so as not to have to spin through any more resistance than necessary. And that usually was at or below the add mark on the dipstick. And yes, they made more power and were faster. Oil past a certain point in volume becomes resistance.

Could it be possible that because a two strokes crankcase volume is so small the extra oil becomes indeed a resistance much quicker than one would suspect? Fuel on the other hand is very combustible and is searching constantly for a way to exit an engine, always drawn to the highest heat or flame. The combustion chamber. Are the molecules of fuel actually the catalyst that carries the oil to be combusted as long as the weight isn't too great? Or PPM too high (oil ratio)?

And one more thought, does an oil, like Belray, that has the greatest ability to adhere to metal produce the most resistance to travel with fuel to combust? If that oil is so effective in lubrication over all the other oils then shouldn't the ratio of the best lubricating oil actually be higher than the lesser oils? 

So, in my simple mind too much oil provides superior protection. Too much oil also can drop H.P. And we know what happens when you use not enough oil. I also know that an engine translates it's "sweet spot" to the operator, as least to me, as it will feel sluggish rich and very tight when leaned. The Magic is finding the perfect middle, leaning toward the protection side of the chainsaw or engine for longevity without loosing HP. At least this has worked for me. 

Since I am not a Pro by any stretch and cut firewood and goonies for fun I really don't know much as this is a hobby. But I'll tell you what, when I do get to play I sure want things to run as perfect as possible!

Other than being too lean of course, there is no right or wrong answer, just like the question "what is the right chainsaw for me?" It is all about personal preference and what works for you


----------



## Westboastfaller

Well said..IMO


----------



## KG441c

Great ideas! Thats something to think on


----------



## Andyshine77

3 seconds is a huge difference in time. So much so, a stock saws running 50:1 should be out cutting or cutting with ported saws running 32:1. I have not seen this.

I'm thinking a regular carb saw without a limited coil, may be a better test subject. I have the saws and fuel mix.


----------



## KG441c

Im sure a ported saw will overcome the resistance of the extra oil


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Im sure a ported saw will overcome the resistance of the extra oil



I'm thinking this has more to do with the Mtronic system, maybe a restricted exhaust. Or I completely wrong lol.


----------



## Westboastfaller

Its resistance though...like a tight bottom end or generator magnet...no?


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> 3 seconds is a huge difference in time. So much so, a stock saws running 50:1 should be out cutting, or with ported saws running 32:1. I have not seen this.


I have to agree 100%



Andyshine77 said:


> I'm thinking a regular carb saw without a limited coil, may be a better test subject. I have the saws and fuel mix.


Could be that the M-Tronic didnt have enough cut time to respond to the changed mix. Stihl says to make 5 uniform cuts after initiating the reset procedure. Maybe the reset procedure could have been done each time the mix was changed and the 661 might have run differently.



Andyshine77 said:


> I'm thinking this has more to do with the Mtronic system, maybe a restricted exhaust. Or I completely wrong lol.


IIRC, he did open the exhaust some ........... maybe not as much as he could have, but I dont believe the outlet was stock



Redbull had lots of work to do this, and I am not taking away anything from his efforts, but there are lots of variables to this ....... its easy to play Monday morning quarterback after watching Sundays game in the comfy livingroom chair. I certainly didnt go out and run the tests Redbull did, and me arse does feel comfy when I am in my chair

I might try 40:1 in stock ***, but I like my wet exhaust 32:1 pretty good in my hopped up stuff


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> Think the higher compression making more heat likes the richer oil mixture ?


Probably so. The better seal will transfer more heat some is hotter or cooler on the cylinder better?



traktorz said:


> Doesn't the richer oil mixture than 2% cause the piston top and the spark plug dark as a coal cellar, and the muffler outlet dripping of oil?
> Does the AutoTune/M-Tronic minimizes the carbon build-up, even with oil mixtures at 1:40 & 1:33?


Not really. Maybe with stihl orange bottle or gas station 2 stroke oil. 



Andyshine77 said:


> 3 seconds is a huge difference in time. So much so, a stock saws running 50:1 should be out cutting, or with ported saws running 32:1. I have not seen this.
> 
> I'm thinking a regular carb saw without a limited coil, may be a better test subject. I have the saws and fuel mix.


I wondered if the mtronic is the biggest factor. I tested 110 and 93 octane using the 550xp and it took 20 cuts or longer to get it to run and idle right on the 110.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Im surprised this thread hasn't hit 50 pages by now


----------



## Sagetown

KenJax Tree said:


> Im surprised this thread hasn't hit 50 pages by now


KJT; I read up on your MAX 927, and Lucas oils. Will give Lucas a try, but not the 927. Why?; because of the sweet aroma. Used a sweet smelling bio-degradable bar oil once, and the Honey Bees got so bad I had to put the saw down. Took me a while to access the situation, as they were all over my saw.


----------



## KenJax Tree

(Crickets chirping)


----------



## MustangMike

Ryan, what oil is it you ran at 50:1 in that 346?

Thanks for all the hard work and the results, but I'm confused. Didn't the dyno show more power with more oil?

Perhaps it depends on the saw.


----------



## bwalker

What a goat rodeo...


----------



## bwalker

And there are SAE papers on this subject. The science was settled in the late 70's.. More oil= more power.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok after reading all this i decided to go back to Motul 800(i was gonna use Maxima K2 but didn't have enough) @ 40:1 after using Lucas 32:1 for about 6 months. After a few gallons i'm sure the internals of my saws are well covered in oil, so are my clutch covers and mufflers. I didn't realize how much it spooged i assume its from the 525° flash point so all the oil isn't burning off because a chain saw just don't get that hot so its blowing it out the muffler. While these race oils don't leave deposits they leave a mess. IMO they're just overkill for a chain saw, so this fuel will go in my dirt bike can and its back to Lucas for my saws.

Yes i retuned them after the switch and even my AutoTune saws had a wet black goo. I never really noticed the amount of goo before when i used race oils but i do now. The Lucas left the inside of my mufflers slightly wet with oil but it didn't run down the mufflers and all over the clutch cover on my top handles.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Ok after reading all this i decided to go back to Motul 800(i was gonna use Maxima K2 but didn't have enough) @ 40:1 after using Lucas 32:1 for about 6 months. After a few gallons i'm sure the internals of my saws are well covered in oil, so are my clutch covers and mufflers. I didn't realize how much it spooged i assume its from the 525° flash point so all the oil isn't burning off because a chain saw just don't get that hot so its blowing it out the muffler. While these race oils don't leave deposits they leave a mess. IMO they're just overkill for a chain saw, so this fuel will go in my dirt bike can and its back to Lucas for my saws.
> 
> Yes i retuned them after the switch and even my AutoTune saws had a wet black goo. I never really noticed the amount of goo before when i used race oils but i do now.


U have me confused. Motul 800t id a dirtbike oil also?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whats confusing Keith? I mixed 5 gallons of fuel with 800 2T for my saws and after using 2 gallons i decided to use the rest in my dirt bike. I will just keep using Lucas for my saws like i was.


----------



## KG441c

Oh ok. I misread. I thought u said u were goin back to motul


----------



## bwalker

No supprise 800 does that..
Yamube 2R.. it's good stuff.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Oh ok. I misread. I thought u said u were goin back to motul


I was going to and decided to just stay with Lucas after the goo ......or maybe try K2 again, the flash point is 240 so its more than half that of 800. IDK you guys get me thinkin' [emoji23]


----------



## KG441c

Ill stick with h1r 32to1


----------



## bwalker

H1R always required some odly different carb tuning to run right compared to other oils. Hence I lost interest in it sometime in the 90's. It also was on the dirty side.


----------



## KenJax Tree

The biggest mess was on my 201T, possibly because it never really gets real hot. It gets started and makes a 30 second cut and then gets shut off for a few and restarted for another 30 second and so on all day. I guess it just comes down to preference and i prefer not to have all the goo.


----------



## bwalker

You shouldn't have goo assuming the motor has a decent transfer port layout and is tuned properly. SOME stihls just suck in that respect and burn dirty no matter what .


----------



## KenJax Tree

I have no idea how the transfer ports are laid out, all my saws are stock other than muffler mods and some with advanced timing. Maybe that has something to do with? Maybe not. I can't tune my Autotune saws and i doubt my top handles get hot enough for the 525° flash point. Maybe its better when making long bucking cuts or milling??


----------



## MustangMike

Perhaps the reason for the difference in these tests is the M-Tronic, and a stock saw. It is designed to run w/50:1.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

I had a very interesting conversation about this thread with one of my senior techs. he has been a stihl tech for 20yrs., and a lawn and garden mechanic since i was a little tyke running around the shop. he has very strong relationship with a few people at Va. Beach. he says when they first started pushing ultra and testing/running m-tronic they quickly learned a few things. most importantly, m-tron is/was engineered/designed to perform best and give the longest engine life @ 50-1. specifically on the 441 carb vs. the 441 m-tron, the engine life was no less than 30% longer. not sure where the ms280 came into the picture,as it was definately before the 441c. he also said that while ultra is bottled by an outside vendor, it is designed to give the best performance/service life at 50-1. stihl cool-aid or not, who knows?


----------



## blsnelling

Andre, my first thoughts were along the same line as yours. I'm wondering if the results had more to do with MTronic than anything else. MTronic is aweful nice for a dedicated work saw, but I still like to be in control of the carb on my saws.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

here is more fuel for the fire. answer this: temp today was 45 degrees, ran the 241c, 261c and the 2260/2253 at 40-1 ultra and e-free gas. the stihls' ran ok, and the jonsereds ran just ok, but seemed to stumble a little, maybe even hesitate. none of the saws were a 100%. dumped all the gas, switched everthing to moto-mix, all saws ran like scalded dogs. it was like a night and day difference. what is the deal? do the new m-tron/autotune saws really like 50-1 better?? i would to like to know. all i know is from now on it will be moto-mix in all saws.


----------



## mdavlee

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> here is more fuel for the fire. answer this: temp today was 45 degrees, ran the 241c, 261c and the 2260/2253 at 40-1 ultra and e-free gas. the stihls' ran ok, and the jonsereds ran just ok, but seemed to stumble a little, maybe even hesitate. none of the saws were a 100%. dumped all the gas, switched everthing to moto-mix, all saws ran like scalded dogs. it was like a night and day difference. what is the deal? do the new m-tron/autotune saws really like 50-1 better?? i would to like to know. all i know is from now on it will be moto-mix in all saws.


Fuel could be stale or bad. I've had a couple gallons of gas I had to toss out. It wouldn't run in any saws.


----------



## Sagetown

KenJax Tree said:


> Whats confusing Keith? I mixed 5 gallons of fuel with 800 2T for my saws and after using 2 gallons i decided to use the rest in my dirt bike. I will just keep using Lucas for my saws like i was.


I'm going with Lucas, but not as heavy mix as you are mixing. Somewhere between 42:1 -> 50:1. I only use my saws around the ranch.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Sagetown said:


> I'm going with Lucas, but not as heavy mix as you are mixing. Somewhere between 42:1 -> 50:1. I only use my saws around the ranch.


You'll be more than happy with it. I could get away with mixing 36:1 or 42:1 (3oz or 3.5oz) i just mix 32:1 (4oz) to keep it simple.


----------



## Sagetown

KenJax Tree said:


> You'll be more than happy with it. I could get away with mixing 36:1 or 42:1 (3oz or 3.5oz) i just mix 32:1 (4oz) to keep it simple.


Anything below 40:1 just seems a little too heavy concentration to me, but then, what does a farmer know...


----------



## KenJax Tree

Sagetown said:


> Anything below 40:1 just seems a little too heavy concentration to me, but then, what does a farmer know...


Yeah 32:1 is probably overkill in my saws but it burns clean, don't get gooey, leaves a nice blue film of oil, and the extra protection is there.


----------



## Sagetown

KenJax Tree said:


> Yeah 32:1 is probably overkill in my saws but it burns clean, don't get gooey, leaves a nice blue film of oil, and the extra protection is there.


Yeah; I can understand your concern for all day, everyday usage. Can't make a livin' burning up saws.


----------



## blsnelling

I don't understand this talk of oily and gooey mufflers. When tuned correctly, I simply haven't found this to be an issue.


----------



## Sagetown

blsnelling said:


> I don't understand this talk of oily and gooey mufflers. When tuned correctly, I simply haven't found this to be an issue.


If you were getting that goo, would you lighten up on the oil??


----------



## KenJax Tree

Can't tune an Autotune saw Brad.....my 201T isn't really an issue Stihl top handle clutch covers all turn black anyways


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Can't tune an Autotune saw Brad.....my 201T isn't really an issue Stihl top handle clutch covers all turn black anyways


This is true. Perhaps MTronic runs rich.


----------



## redbull660

well I can try 50:1 vs 32:1 and do the reset thingy on the 661 and see what happens. Someone gotta buy some of these chains though so I can keep this testing going. 

I could also do the 660 and do 50:1 vs 32:1


----------



## Sagetown

KenJax Tree said:


> Can't tune an Autotune saw Brad.....my 201T isn't really an issue Stihl top handle clutch covers all turn black anyways


So, you're saying, if it was tuned to that mix ratio, you might not have that issue?


----------



## blsnelling

Sagetown said:


> If you were getting that goo, would you lighten up on the oil??


I run 32:1 in everything, stock and ported. It's never been an issue.


----------



## Mastermind

All our A/T and M/T saws run on 32:1. No drool.

Weedeaters and leafblowers too.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I could also do the 660 and do 50:1 vs 32:1


I like that idea.


----------



## Sagetown

Mastermind said:


> All our A/T and M/T saws run on 32:1. No drool.
> 
> Weedeaters and leafblowers too.


Okay; Do you think the local Stihl Techs are capable of tuning them in for a 32:1 ratio?


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> This is true. Perhaps MTronic runs rich.


Which is why you guys get better gains out of say....a 346 than you do a 550, because they can be leaned out to the edge but yet stock for stock a 550 is a little stronger.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Which is why you guys get better gains out of say....a 346 than you do a 550, because they can be leaned out to the edge but yet stock for stock a 550 is a little stronger.


A ported 550 will nip right at the heals of a 346. I'm not saying MTronic runs rich. That was more of a question, or a possibility as to what you're seeing.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> well I can try 50:1 vs 32:1 and do the reset thingy on the 661 and see what happens. Someone gotta buy some of these chains though so I can keep this testing going.
> 
> I could also do the 660 and do 50:1 vs 32:1



You're wasting your time young man. 

More oil has been proven to make more power in tests that are far more scientific than anything you are doing here.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> A ported 550 will nip right at the heals of a 346. I'm not saying MTronic runs rich. That was more of a question, or a possibility as to what you're seeing.


Its possible. And i could've played with the tune on the 201T a little more but i didn't.


----------



## blsnelling

I would still like to see your results with the 660. Use the oil of your choice and tune to the same RPM with each mix.


----------



## Andyshine77

We're all just guessing in the dark here. The last though I have on this, is how goofy H1R behaves, I had to open up th H speed jet on my 346 almost a full turn, when I went from running K2. I've never had to do that running any other oil. A full turn would definitely be a lot for the Mtronic system to adjust in a timely manner. IMHO this really has little if anything to do with the oil fuel ratio itself. It simply doesn't add up, and is out of line with the years of timing saw and comparing them, at gtg's or on my own time.


----------



## DND 9000

It would also be interesting to see how the L and H settings change on the AT and MT engines, if you use different oil ratios. But that could only be read out with the engine diagnostic tools.


----------



## Marshy

Mastermind said:


> You're wasting your time young man.
> 
> More oil has been proven to make more power in tests that are far more scientific than anything you are doing here.


 Thats what Im saying. Too many variable in each cut to claim one ratio is faster than another. Proof would be a dyno.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Thats what Im saying. Too many variable in each cut to claim one ratio is faster than another. Proof would be a dyno.


It would be a tough to do on a dyno even.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> We're all just guessing in the dark here. The last though I have on this, is how goofy H1R behaves, I had to open up th H speed jet on my 346 almost a full turn, when I went from running K2. I've never had to do that running any other oil. A full turn would definitely be a lot for the Mtronic system to adjust in a timely manner. IMHO this really has little if anything to do with the oil fuel ratio itself. It simply doesn't add up, and is out of line with the years of timing saw and comparing them, at gtg's or on my own time.


What does that tell you besides don't use the crap?


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> It would be a tough to do on a dyno even.


Yes I believe so too.

How about this for a new test... why not pick one oil at one set ratio but vary the grades of gas. Do say 40:1 of your choice and mix 89, 91, 93 and then test it against some canned fuel...?


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> well I can try 50:1 vs 32:1 and do the reset thingy on the 661 and see what happens. Someone gotta buy some of these chains though so I can keep this testing going.
> 
> I could also do the 660 and do 50:1 vs 32:1


104Dl of RS in .404 @ .063 ................ what do you want for them ?


----------



## Andyshine77

Marshy said:


> Yes I believe so too.
> 
> How about this for a new test... why not pick one oil at one set ratio but vary the grades of gas. Do say 40:1 of your choice and mix 89, 91, 93 and then test it against some canned fuel...?



Did that, zero difference will be noticeable without a dyno.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> What does that tell you besides don't use the crap?



It tells me it effects combustion differently. H1R is far from carp. Without scientific based test, with the proper controls, this discussion and test is a bit of a cluster ****.


----------



## bwalker

It tells me it inhibits combustion. I want no part of an oil that does that, as it opens up a can of worms.
And why bother with it when there are much better oils for a saw application.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> It tells me it inhibits combustion. I want no part of an oil that does that, as it opens up a can of worms.
> And why bother with it when there are much better oils for a saw application.


And this test is beyond meaningless.


----------



## bwalker

How about a blast from the past?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AM9S7AqpfYwqCVU0g&sig2=k4Grk9VoDE1b2xiyKMODRw


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> You're wasting your time young man.
> 
> More oil has been proven to make more power in tests that are far more scientific than anything you are doing here.


I have a feeling that if alota these guys opt for the 50to1 you will be rebuilding alot more bottomends!! Lol!!


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> It tells me it inhibits combustion. I want no part of an oil that does that, as it opens up a can of worms.
> And why bother with it when there are much better oils for a saw application.


Doesnt all oil inhibit combustion? The tech at Maxima did tell me the lower flashpoints will ignite more readily and produce a tad more energy but im sure he is pushing their product


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

blsnelling said:


> I don't understand this talk of oily and gooey mufflers. When tuned correctly, I simply haven't found this to be an issue.


 just asking a question here. do you think you put enough time on any one of your saws to get them to that point? also, all of your toys are heavily ported, they run faster and hotter, therefore you would not see the buildup a firewood cutter does with a stock saw.


----------



## KG441c

Redbull it would be interesting to see the 660 tested. Is it ported?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> It tells me it inhibits combustion. I want no part of an oil that does that, as it opens up a can of worms.
> And why bother with it when there are much better oils for a saw application.



Maybe you're jumping to conclusions, like many others are.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Maybe you're jumping to conclusions, like many others are.


I agree. Ive had 0 issues with motul 800 and h1r . Oily residue on all internals is very good especially when it burns cleanly and alil oil on the outside is a small price to pay.


----------



## 7sleeper

Haywire Haywood said:


> No, no.. You got it backwards. First oil, then pump the gas in. Mixes better that way.


Simply not true! I have never seen anyone start up a saw at the pump station, then you might be correct but also highly probably arrested also. All others refuel their gas jug, dump in the oil and throw the mix container into the car and drive to whereever they are cutting their wood. During that drive there are enough movements inside the jug to ensure proper mixing! And what should hinder a mineral oil product from mixing with another mineral/full synthetic oil product?!

As usual these oil threads are quite annoying with all the "beliefs" proclaimed!

7


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> I agree. Ive had 0 issues with motul 800 and h1r . Oily residue on all internals is very good especially when it burns cleanly and alil oil on the outside is a small price to pay.


It wasn't a little, it was all up under the top cover, running down the front of the muffler and on to the case on my 550, 562, and on 201T it just all over inside and outside the clutch cover.

I'm not saying 800 is bad oil at all or not to use it, i've used it for years in my dirt bikes and its great. Perhaps there is a reason VP uses 710 instead of 800 in SEF.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Doesnt all oil inhibit combustion? The tech at Maxima did tell me the lower flashpoints will ignite more readily and produce a tad more energy but im sure he is pushing their product


No.
In the case of H1R and based on several things I think it has alot of diluent in the blend which is causing the above mentioned combustion issues.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> It wasn't a little, it was all up under the top cover, running down the front of the muffler and on to the case on my 550, 562, and on 201T it just all over inside and outside the clutch cover.


I run my 562 at 32:1 and have since new. The muffler is bone dry.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I run my 562 at 32:1 and have since new. The muffler is bone dry.


Motul 800 Road Racing?


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Maybe you're jumping to conclusions, like many others are.


Perhaps, but I have seen the same thing you have observed over several different applications. And given the fact it isn't that clean why bother with it.
With these issues definitive evidence is hard to find, but you can't ignore the anecdotal.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Motul 800 Road Racing?


No, I wouldn't run that oil in a saw.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> No, I wouldn't run that oil in a saw.


Thats what i was saying. Lucas @ 32:1 was very clean and slighly wet inside the muffler, the 800 @ 40:1 made a mess.

I'm not trying to argue or debate that Lucas is better than Motul or any other oil but for this application and my use i'll stick with Lucas.


----------



## bwalker

800 is full of zinc. Zinc will foul plugs and cause piston crown and exhaust port deposits. The crown deposits will also contribute to pre ignition.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> 800 is full of zinc. Zinc will foul plugs and cause piston crown and exhaust port deposits. The crown deposits will also contribute to pre ignition.


I have run 800 and have had spotless combustion chambers .............. including plugs. The 800 actually reduced the deposits on the piston that were there from Echo 2 cycle synthetic


----------



## bwalker

Typical if the piston is spotless IE bare metal, than your running very rich. I have never seen a bare metal piston from a motor ran any length of time that was tuned properly.


----------



## CR888

Chainsaws run under quite different conditions to what a lot of these bike 2T oils were designed for. Don't forget when pre mixing oil it remains at the same ratio irrespective of what rpm/load situation is taking place. What l would like to see is OEM's work far more closely with oil company's to produce a quality synthetic/semi synthetic tailored to suit the specific requirements of modern saws. This would mean chemical engineers would test and really determine the best formula for the application. lf l as a consumer am expected to pay in many instances more than double or tripple the cost of conventional mineral base oils l want better than what is on the shelf today. l don't want to feel sick after breathing in sulphur contained in the additives after running a saw all day, going home with my eyes feeling like shrivelled sultanas...NO THANKS. And the price they command is hidious!! A industry saw user can easily pocket the savings using conventional oils to replace his saw yearly at minimum. Let alone having to worry about saws not in use attracting moisture corroding internals main bearings ect. Go to a Stihl dealer and get a quote on replacing crank bearings....not worth the risk. Actually quite stupid lMO. What about, loss of ring seal due to glazing that these synthetics cause....these are tested known fact! If using synthetics in saws that put food on your family's table why would you want an oil that results in power loss after prolonged use?? Once again get a quote at your local dealer for replacement of rings/piston. Most guys pay others to do this work as their trade is holding a saw. The negatives of these pricey, blow by promoting man made princess perfect molecules are just false economy and did l mention they stink. Look, synthetics have 'some' wonderful characteristics at high temperatures and in certain racing applications you would be stupid to use anything else, but we are talking chainsaws!lol Not the quarter mile or Baja! I challenge anyone to show the forum a failure directly related to any oil mineral/synthetic?? I mean a failure that can directly be blamed on the QUALITY of the oil, not no oil or not enough oil or a result of lean tune. Andy has been searching for a few days now and he has come up with zilch, maybe others can chime in and help him. But the rules are, you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that XXXX oil caused the failure.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> It wasn't a little, it was all up under the top cover, running down the front of the muffler and on to the case on my 550, 562, and on 201T it just all over inside and outside the clutch cover.
> 
> I'm not saying 800 is bad oil at all or not to use it, i've used it for years in my dirt bikes and its great. Perhaps there is a reason VP uses 710 instead of 800 in SEF.


Chris I cant anwser that but I havent seen that


bwalker said:


> 800 is full of zinc. Zinc will foul plugs and cause piston crown and exhaust port deposits. The crown deposits will also contribute to pre ignition.


I disagree. Ive ran 800t and h1r with zero fouled plugs or depoists and ive ran it in all my ported saws including a stock 241c with 0 issues


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> I have run 800 and have had spotless combustion chambers .............. including plugs. The 800 actually reduced the deposits on the piston that were there from Echo 2 cycle synthetic


I agree. Thats totally not true that 800 or h1r will depoist a piston or foul plugs


----------



## bwalker

It's verifiable that 800 is full of zinc. It's also verifiable what zinc does inside a motor.


----------



## bwalker

CR888 said:


> Chainsaws run under quite different conditions to what a lot of these bike 2T oils were designed for. Don't forget when pre mixing oil it remains at the same ratio irrespective of what rpm/load situation is taking place. What l would like to see is OEM's work far more closely with oil company's to produce a quality synthetic/semi synthetic tailored to suit the specific requirements of modern saws. This would mean chemical engineers would test and really determine the best formula for the application. lf l as a consumer am expected to pay in many instances more than double or tripple the cost of conventional mineral base oils l want better than what is on the shelf today. l don't want to feel sick after breathing in sulphur contained in the additives after running a saw all day, going home with my eyes feeling like shrivelled sultanas...NO THANKS. And the price they command is hidious!! A industry saw user can easily pocket the savings using conventional oils to replace his saw yearly at minimum. Let alone having to worry about saws not in use attracting moisture corroding internals main bearings ect. Go to a Stihl dealer and get a quote on replacing crank bearings....not worth the risk. Actually quite stupid lMO. What about, loss of ring seal due to glazing that these synthetics cause....these are tested known fact! If using synthetics in saws that put food on your family's table why would you want an oil that results in power loss after prolonged use?? Once again get a quote at your local dealer for replacement of rings/piston. Most guys pay others to do this work as their trade is holding a saw. The negatives of these pricey, blow by promoting man made princess perfect molecules are just false economy and did l mention they stink. Look, synthetics have 'some' wonderful characteristics at high temperatures and in certain racing applications you would be stupid to use anything else, but we are talking chainsaws!lol Not the quarter mile or Baja! I challenge anyone to show the forum a failure directly related to any oil mineral/synthetic?? I mean a failure that can directly be blamed on the QUALITY of the oil, not no oil or not enough oil or a result of lean tune. Andy has been searching for a few days now and he has come up with zilch, maybe others can chime in and help him. But the rules are, you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that XXXX oil caused the failure.


So all synthetics cause glazing? Laughing!
Most oils today are at least partially synthetic. In fact they have to be to meet the latest standards.


----------



## bwalker

What many are failing to grasp is the fact that oils are application specific. Some motorcycle oils work well in saws, some do not. What makes one oil excel in one area is a detriment in another. Everything is a trade off.
When guys write about using oils like Motul 800, Maxima 927, Klotz Techniplate etc in a a low stressed application like a saw I shake my head.. On top of that the same guys think there doing their motor a favor, when the opposite is true.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

So whats the conclusion fellas , i gotta fill my gas cans up tomorrow.


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> So whats the conclusion fellas , i gotta fill my gas cans up tomorrow.


I say buy the cheapest no name oil at the store u can find and run it at 100to1. Dont use semi or full synthetic bike oil it isnt made for your saw and will burn it up especially at 32t01!!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> I say buy the cheapest no name oil at the store u can find and run it at 100to1. Dont use semi or full synthetic bike oil it isnt made for your saw and will burn it up especially at 32t01!!



This forum is expensive , i keep forgetting the hours i put on saws before i ran a motorcycle oil and they all ran fine and i never had a problem..i need you guys to figure it out and ill go try it.


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> This forum is expensive , i keep forgetting the hours i put on saws before i ran a motorcycle oil and they all ran fine and i never had a problem..i need you guys to figure it out and ill go try it.


It really is splitting hairs..if it works for you and your happy keep doing it!


----------



## KenJax Tree

SAWMIKAZE said:


> So whats the conclusion fellas , i gotta fill my gas cans up tomorrow.


Do what works for you, only a few opinions matter here and its not mine[emoji3]


----------



## CR888

bwalker said:


> So all synthetics cause glazing? Laughing!
> Most oils today are at least partially synthetic. In fact they have to be to meet the latest standards.[/QUOTTE=
> 
> Ever stopped to think why they burn your eyes and have such a foul odor.......sulphur added to slow glazing. So what exactly is HR1's rating?? Why does full synthetic ulta have a lower rating than hp??? l own saws that have seen over a decade of use on stihl cheapest mineral oil. Prolonged use of full synthetics will reduce throttle response and reduce ring seal. lf l were to use full synthetics l would make sure l ran mineral oil every so often. Full synthetics certainly have there place, just not in my saws.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> What many are failing to grasp is the fact that oils are application specific. Some motorcycle oils work well in saws, some do not. What makes one oil excel in one area is a detriment in another. Everything is a trade off.
> When guys write about using oils like Motul 800, Maxima 927, Klotz Techniplate etc in a a low stressed application like a saw I shake my head.. On top of that the same guys think there doing their motor a favor, when the opposite is true.


If a saw was used milling where each cut is 1-2 tanks of mix are these still overkill?


----------



## bwalker

Your completley false on the sulfur....and everything else as well..


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> If a saw was used milking where each cut is 1-2 tanks of mix are these still overkill?


Yes. I would look at going to a 32:1 and maybe even 20:1 ratio depending on the wood. I would also be very mindful that my carb tuning stayed on the rich side


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Yes.


I'm just curious what oil do you run?


----------



## bwalker

In *** I have been using Yamalube 2R for some time. Also used up a couple quarts worth of Husky silver that I got for free.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> I say buy the cheapest no name oil at the store u can find and run it at 100to1. Dont use semi or full synthetic bike oil it isnt made for your saw and will burn it up especially at 32t01!!



I chunked 3 maple trees down friday and put 6 tanks of fuel through my 241..it was runnin 90 e free gas and belray at 32:1 and it ran great..am i doin it wrong ? , i just wanna know how long my saw is gonna last ?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KenJax Tree said:


> Do what works for you, only a few opinions matter here and its not mine[emoji3]



Expierence doesnt count


----------



## porsche965

This is better than a reality show without tits!


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Expierence doesnt count


Which is dependant on knowledge and expectations for a valid interpretation.


----------



## Mastermind

I just ordered a quart of Yamalube 2-R. If the H1R does indeed create a tuning issue, I want to see how this stuff does.


----------



## bwalker

MM, it has a very long track record of excellant performance going back to the 70's.
The factory Honda MX team actually went so far as to buy it and pour it.in Honda bottles they could use it.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

..guys just tell me which oil/ratio is gonna make my saw survive the summer.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> So if you do a test cut on a saw that is sent to you and it runs 37 seconds and then you port it and it runs 30 seconds ie. 7 seconds faster. Then it's legit. But if in my test 50:1 beats 32:1 by 7 seconds...there is too many variables??



It's ok. 

I just ain't buying it.


----------



## bikemike

KG441c said:


> Im sure a ported saw will overcome the resistance of the extra oil


I agree that it will over come any minor resistants plus heat will thin out oil And the difference from 1 oz of oil to 2 oz of per gallon i dont think will slow down a saw that is already hot n workin hard. Id rather have more protection against friction and wear of how clean my saw is. If you all are looking out for emissions. Then please post pics of you toyota prius with the trailer behind it. I dont care about keeping a screen clean and getting 5 years out of a spark plug just to se my piston burnt up And bearings that sound like metal on metal vs a lubed bearing. For all of you that want less oil just go all out with 100 to 1 lucas post pics when its rusted and shot yeah cool part about this post is it will cause some corruption again


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I chunked 3 maple trees down friday and put 6 tanks of fuel through my 241..it was runnin 90 e free gas and belray at 32:1 and it ran great..am i doin it wrong ? , i just wanna know how long my saw is gonna last ?


Take the chit out ur saw. Walker already said that is totally the opposite from what ur saw needs


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> This is better than a reality show without tits!


Lol!! Silliness!!


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> ..guys just tell me which oil/ratio is gonna make my saw survive the summer.


Run 50to1 and if it blows up buy another saw and run 32to1!! Lol!!


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> bikemike - do you want to come and observe my next test to make sure I do things right? I notice your in cottage grove. About 45min from me.


It will be interesting to see if the 660 produces the same results redbull


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> Run 50to1 and if it blows up buy another saw and run 32to1!! Lol!!



Ive seen saws live a life that you cant imagine on 50:1 ... mine would too if it wasnt for this smartphone i have.


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Ive seen saws live a life that you cant imagine on 50:1 ... mine would too if it wasnt for this smartphone i have.


Easy remedy. 2.6 0z per a gallon. Ill stick with 4oz of H1R to 1 gal. Myself


----------



## mdavlee

Mastermind said:


> I just ordered a quart of Yamalube 2-R. If the H1R does indeed create a tuning issue, I want to see how this stuff does.


I had a 066 that didn't want to tune on belray. It had the small jet in the carb.


----------



## redbull660

well ya all have me curious about the carb version and the reset on the mtronic 661.

sooo I'll buy some more H1R

mix up some 50:1 and some 32:1. Make up some 3/8ths or 404 chain? I'll do 3-4 cuts this time. and we'll compare times and temps again. First with the 660. If 50:1 beats 32:1 with the 660 then I'm not doing the reset thing on the 661 cuz it would be a waste.

If someone wants to come watch me do these I don't care. I'm in woodville, WI about 45min from twin cities MN.

I DO NOT CARE IF 32:1 wins!!! All I care about is running the best mix! If 32 wins I'll run it. But if it runs hotter and slower like it has already did in the first test then forget it. Why you guys would want to run a hotter jug or that much of a slower saw is beyond me...don't really care though cuz I ain't the one running it!

Lastly, remember this is a stock saw! If someone wants to bring their *ported* saw...I'm all for it!

and if someone has something better than H1R let's run that! I don't care! Give me the best stuff!


----------



## bikemike

porsche965 said:


> This is better than a reality show without tits!


I love tits


----------



## Mastermind

I'm just sitting thinking about all the saws I've seen with trashed big end bearings........now there's some guy on here trying to prove that less oil is better. 

Spend a few years tearing into saw after saw, and then come back here and tell us what you think then.


----------



## huskihl

porsche965 said:


> This is better than a reality show without tits!


It's more like girls gone wild. Bottom line: Everyone's experiences are different. Anyone who ever had a saw burn up blamed it on oil. They change ratios back and forth from 50:1 to 24:1 without retuning it and when it burns up on cheap oil at 24:1 it was the oil's fault. Most don't understand that more oil in the mix requires opening jets up to compensate for the mix now being thicker. 

I bought a husky 51 in the early 90's to cut my own firewood. 20 face cord per year for a few years. And 30-40 hours per year since. All on the cheapest oil and gas available. I've never done anything but toss out the muffler screen. Never replaced a rubber line in it. And it runs like new. Maybe synthetic oils are a bit to blame for many failures to fuel system components. I don't know. 

I have a 1988 jred 625 that was used hard for 15 years on pump gas and cheap oil. I just ordered a crank for it because the rod bearing is sloppy. But it probably has 1500 hours on it. Top of the piston was black, but not built up. Some carbon in the exhaust port. It was worn out. Nothing "failed".
I might try synthetics in the future. But for now, I'm sticking to what has worked for me. For $13 per gallon.


----------



## bikemike

mdavlee said:


> I had a 066 that didn't want to tune on belray. It had the small jet in the carb.


I use to run yama lube its alright if you rev and engine alot but say in a older enduro bike that does not always seem to be piss reved it can load up easier but it does have a nice smell to it


----------



## bikemike

Mastermind said:


> I'm just sitting thinking about all the saws I've seen with trashed big end bearings........now there's some guy on here trying to prove that less oil is better.
> 
> Spend a few years tearing into saw after saw, and then come back here and tell us what you think then.


Glad to hear you say that i know in past post you suggested more oil in the saws you build both thumbs up here


----------



## Mastermind

Well someone have to say what they really think.


----------



## bikemike

Mastermind said:


> Well someone have to say what they really think.


True more oil more protection up to a certain point


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Well someone have to say what they really think.


Lots of culls around here..


----------



## bwalker

Redbull, I appreciate what your trying to accomplish but you have a cluster fuq of variables that makes your data completely useless.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> oh I see now. Redbull obviously has an agenda?!??!!? Well what the heck is it?????? Give me a break. I posted results. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE "WHY or HOW".
> 
> 32:1 was 7 sec slower and it was hotter. Period. In all the testing I've done... 2-3 seconds is a lot. 7 seconds is an azz beating! Someone wants to watch me mix the gas and tension the chains and do the tests. Go for it. I DO NOT CARE!!!!!!! Be nice to have someone to BS with while I'm doing this stuff.
> 
> 
> and why is longevity so important to you porters anyway? You porters are building basically Hotsaws right? The whole point is to create insane performance. If 32:1 actually does kill performance that much...what is the point of porting? (if 32:1 has to be run in a ported saw due to the higher compression)



Have fun dude. 

I never said you had an agenda. 

Do whatever floats your boat. 


Happy Easter.


----------



## KG441c

Ive talked with belray techs, motul techs, and maxima techs when I studied up on oils and not one tech recommended in our ported saws 700t over 800t or mc1 over h1r or 927 over k2?


----------



## huskihl

I've actually never experienced the "more oil =more power" thing. Until coming here, and since reading several articles about it. When i was a kid, I raced the ol' 500 Quadzilla, an 86 Honda 250r, and a couple bikes. They all recommended 20:1 at the time, but would barely run because of fouling plugs. I don't remember which oil we used, but we switched to 40 or 50:1 and everything woke up. Seat of the pants testing says less oil = more power. Again, not arguing with Jennings' findings, just my .02.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I've actually never experienced the "more oil =more power" thing. Until coming here, and since reading several articles about it. When i was a kid, I raced the ol' 500 Quadzilla, an 86 Honda 250r, and a couple bikes. They all recommended 20:1 at the time, but would barely run because of fouling plugs. I don't remember which oil we used, but we switched to 40 or 50:1 and everything woke up. Seat of the pants testing says less oil = more power. Again, not arguing with Jennings' findings, just my .02.


Fouling isn't caused by too much oil but rather poor tuning. I have motors that run at 20:1 and the silencers are bone dry. I have seen shifter karts run at 16: very cleanly.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> do tell. please expand. what are the variables that have the effect of swaying the times by 7 seconds?


Wood composition, timer human operator and that's just for starters..


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

You guys make me do things i wouldnt normally do..

So after our removals on friday i decided after reading this to go take a look at my 241 since it saw 6 tanks of fuel and 2 chain swaps on friday alone.

the top of my piston is brown..i wanna know how the hell guys on here have a shiny new lookin piston after the supposed run time they say their saws have.

is it the fuel i use ?


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> do tell. please expand. what are the variables that have the effect of swaying the times by 7 seconds?



I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the the M-Tronic system is the reason the results were as they were.

Not saying you did anything "wrong".......but over time the system would likely compensate and the differences would not be so great.

I don't use 32:1 for performance.......I never have given that any thought. I use 32:1 for longevity. Pro saws ain't cheap, and the extra oil is a good idea.


----------



## Mastermind

SAWMIKAZE said:


> You guys make me do things i wouldnt normally do..
> 
> So after our removals on friday i decided after reading this to go take a look at my 241 since it saw 6 tanks of fuel and 2 chain swaps on friday alone.
> 
> the top of my piston is brown..i wanna know how the hell guys on here have a shiny new lookin piston after the supposed run time they say their saws have.
> 
> is it the fuel i use ?



I never look at my piston.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ive talked with belray techs, motul techs, and maxima techs when I studied up on oils and not one tech recommended in our ported saws 700t over 800t or mc1 over h1r or 927 over k2?


You figure that the techs in question have any knowledge of how a saw is ran?


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Fouling isn't caused by too much oil but rather poor tuning. I have motors that run at 20:1 and the silencers are bone dry. I have seen shifter karts run at 16: very cleanly.


Probably why I've never burned up a saw or bike. I've always stuck between 32 and 42:1 and I probably error on the rich side when tuning. Plugs are cheap


----------



## bwalker

Pistons should look brown with some washed bare metal were the transfer ports discharge.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> Probably why I've never burned up a saw or bike. I've always stuck between 32 and 42:1 and I probably error on the rich side when tuning. Plugs are cheap


If you are fouling you are more than a little rich. The oils back then were not as good either, but most of the problem was jetting related. I always run a projected tip plug if possible jet the motor properly. I haven't fouled a plug in decades.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

bwalker said:


> Pistons should look brown with some washed bare metal were the transfer ports discharge.



Then how the hell do some of these guys have a piston crown that is so clean it looks like its never been ran ?


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Then how the hell do some of these guys have a piston crown that is so clean it looks like its never been ran ?


Overly rich, full of crap or minimally ran?


----------



## huskihl

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Then how the hell do some of these guys have a piston crown that is so clean it looks like its never been ran ?


Maybe their carb cleaner works better than their oil?


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Wood composition, timer human operator and that's just for starters..



did you even watch the video? you can do the times your self! yes I umm watched the videos 3 x each and screwed up the times by 7 seconds. LOL! 

the wood! LOL then there is no point to this at all. That is why I did 1 cut each and also used two logs. So both logs showed the same results, yet it's not reliable. HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHA If the wood changed that much, we wouldn't even have cutting contests at all.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

huskihl said:


> Maybe their carb cleaner works better than their oil?


 
 Makes me wonder..


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

redbull660 said:


> did you even watch the video? you can do the times your self! yes I umm watched the videos 3 x each and screwed up the times by 7 seconds. LOL!
> 
> the wood! LOL then there is no point to this at all. That is why I did 1 cut each and also used two logs. So both logs showed the same results, yet it's not reliable. HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHA If the wood changed that much, we wouldn't even have cutting contests at all.



Dude did you seriously think you werent gonna get a ton of flack after you did these tests..this is AS


----------



## Mastermind

I've seen this cat flip out before.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> likewise.



I still have all those PMs. 

It was like watching a 4 year old that has never had a spanking flip out in WalMart over a candy bar.


----------



## big t double

Oh my.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> Oh my.



Now were off to the rodeo ted.


----------



## Mastermind

I'll go away before he flips his lid again.


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Now were off to the rodeo ted.



A goat rodeo perhaps?  Nice avatar by the way. Need w.c. and Mack 10...for the west side connection win. 



bwalker said:


> What a goat rodeo...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> did you even watch the video? you can do the times your self! yes I umm watched the videos 3 x each and screwed up the times by 7 seconds. LOL!
> 
> the wood! LOL then there is no point to this at all. That is why I did 1 cut each and also used two logs. So both logs showed the same results, yet it's not reliable. HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHA If the wood changed that much, we wouldn't even have cutting contests at all.


The fact that you think this test is anything other than a goat rodeo is funny..
So your timer is a eyecrometer.....perfect..no variable there.. and this is just for starters..


----------



## NWCoaster

Not sure why everyone gets so emotional over oil..... just don't think it is really that big of a deal.... run whatever you want if it works for you. The saws with the failures.... I really don't think anyone sends them out for an actual failure analysis or scientific evaluation. It's usually.... must have been the : (Pick whatever fits your personal agenda) Too much oil, not enough oil, synthetic oil, conventional oil, too rich, too lean, crop circles, zinc, low vitamin D, chain too tight , bar too long ( you cant run a short enough bar by the way), outboard clutch, inboard clutch, wrong orange color, blah blah blah with pretty much no effort to try any real analysis. At least redbull has actually put some effort into coming up with some actual testing and has contributed results. 7 seconds by just changing the mix ratio is a huge difference. There are not THAT many variables changed in that short amount of time.....if he were to perform the same tests again or have someone else replicate those tests and have a similar result, I would say that is pretty definitive.
BTW, my 026 has ran the last 16-17 years with Stihl conventional oil at 50:1 with fuel with ethanol in it with Stabil..... is stored wet this way. Have never had it not start, original fuel lines, never rebuilt the carb, runs perfect to this day ( actually, all my outside power equipment is left wet with ethanol and stabil.... NONE HAS EVER HAD A FUEL RELATED PROBLEM IN THE LAST 20 YEARS.......doesn't seem that odd to me and the results speak for themselves. Maybe all the newer saws are just junk.....sure hope my 461 lasts like my 026 has, that is what I expect, of course what do all those OEM engineers who test the OEM oils know about oil and testing longevity of their power equipment????.... I'd go with a bunch of guys working on chainsaws out their garden shed any day of the week... Bwwaaahaahaa.....


----------



## big t double

NWCoaster said:


> .....low vitamin D.....


The next time some one brings in a toasted saw to my shop this is what I'm using as the cause if failure


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> Well someone have to say what they really think.


You're the only one they're gonna listen to Randy, you have quite the following here, the Pied Piper of AS[emoji1]


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> That's all ya got to discredit me huh?
> 
> Well please enlighten us all with your expertise and conduct the proper test to solve this oil mix problem of the ages once and for all.


You discredit yourself better than I ever could.
how about the Mtronic response time variable?
You really believe that 1.5 more ounces of oil per gallon of fuel is the contributing factor here?


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> You discredit yourself better than I ever could.
> how about the Mtronic response time variable?
> You really believe that 1.5 more ounces of oil per gallon of fuel is the contributing factor here?


If the amount of oil change is such a small variable, then the M-tronic should also not have to adjust very much and should be a very small variable also... yes?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Suppose the Bel Ray @ 32:1 was the fastest then what would the argument be? Would the results then be more believable?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Suppose the Bel Ray @ 32:1 was the fastest then what would the argument be? Would the results then be more believable?


Yes, because they would jive with previous peer reviewed research.


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> Suppose the Bel Ray @ 32:1 was the fastest then what would the argument be? Would the results then be more believable?


YES!.....if it fits your prejudged opinion or you heard it from that internet guy...


----------



## huskihl

How much compression do these karts run?


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> Yes, because they would jive with previous peer reviewed research.


Peer reviewed RESEARCH.......haaahaaahhaa, is that the guy with the "cleaner woodshed" or not so cluttered Charlie Foxtrot work bench doing that Scientific testing on his computer controlled Dynamometer like they have at Virginia Beach.....


----------



## Mastermind

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf


----------



## Mastermind

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


----------



## Mastermind

http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm


----------



## Mastermind

I could go on all day......just scratching the surface.


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Peer reviewed RESEARCH.......haaahaaahhaa, is that the guy with the "cleaner woodshed" or not so cluttered Charlie Foxtrot work bench doing that Scientific testing on his computer controlled Dynamometer like they have at Virginia Beach.....


That would be mercury marine amongst others.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Still waiting for these "far more scientific tests" or "previous peer reviewed research" can't seem to find them on any oil thread ever started on this site. I mean if they existed then how come there are so many oil threads? I mean anytime someone brought up the oil mix question the masses of this site would just post a link directly to these tests or peer reviewed research and the thread would be like 2-3 posts long!
> 
> Please enlighten us.


purchase a membership to the SAE and read till your hearts content..


----------



## Haywire Haywood

7sleeper said:


> Simply not true! I have never seen anyone start up a saw at the pump station, then you might be correct but also highly probably arrested also. All others refuel their gas jug, dump in the oil and throw the mix container into the car and drive to where ever they are cutting their wood. During that drive there are enough movements inside the jug to ensure proper mixing! And what should hinder a mineral oil product from mixing with another mineral/full synthetic oil product?!
> 
> As usual these oil threads are quite annoying with all the "beliefs" proclaimed!
> 
> 7




It all works, but I put the oil in first and let the churning of the gas being pumped in under pressure do the mixing. I don't think I suggested running a saw at the pump station either. Where did you get that from? 

Ian


----------



## Mastermind

I didn't even get into the kart racing guys. Their oil thread make us look lame. 

Oh.......check out the RC airplane geeks. Their oil threads are epic. 

One thing they all have in common.......more oil provides a better ring seal, and produces more power.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm pretty sure Gordon Jennings research trumps yours. 

Even if it is 40 years old.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm


"What about additives ? I think the manufacturers match the additive packages to the metallurgy of the metals in their engines. I once went to a Lawnboy lawnmower school where they bragged that the Lawnboy oil had almost no ash in it. They said this was really good for their engines. Another mechanic at the school said he had been to a Sachs chainsaw school and they told him there that the Sach engine needed ash. Their oil had lots of ash. Seems to me he said at least 2-3 % of ash, yet Lawnboy likes almost nothing... Why ? What about the other additives in the package ?"





Lawn boy oil is a ashless oil and is nearly identical to a tcw3 outboard oil. These us because a mower is ran at nearly constant high rpm and for long periods of time. When a motor is ran like this ash build up can foul plugs and cause pre ignition. Ash BTW refers to the sulfate ash test where by a sample is reacted with sulfuric acid and the metalic residue is measured. The disperses and detergents in an ashless oil are typically nitrogen based and do not contain mettalics.
Chainsaws like a Sachs are of course run at variable throttle settings and are not at full throttle for hours on end. As a result calcium based dispersal ts and zinc phosphate antiwar additives are appropriate given they work better in the variable load, yet high heat scenarios.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> first link is a mag article that is almost 40yrs old. jug designs changed since then
> 
> 2nd - article ...some dude's opinion. no tests shown.
> 
> 3rd - web article ...some dude's opinion. no tests shown.
> 
> opinions! show me tests!!!! tests with a engine of similar size, that runs like a chainsaw ie. stop and short bursts of full throttle etc, that runs at compression of a chainsaw and rpm's of a chainsaw!


Those old jugs are were more advanced than a state of the art chainsaw... Chainsaws aren't exactly on the cutting edge.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I'm pretty sure Gordon Jennings research trumps yours.
> 
> Even if it is 40 years old.


And by a long shot....


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> You figure that the techs in question have any knowledge of how a saw is ran?


Probably so. They ask how many rpms we turned, compression, and for how long the cuts were . All thoso guys werent dumb by far


----------



## Mastermind

Read Bell's book too. 

His finding were the same as Jennings. 

http://iheartstella.com/resources/manuals/tuning/Graham-Bell-Two-Stroke-Performance-Tuning.pdf


----------



## Hedgerow

If you all want to know which mix makes most power, why not just ask the race guys...??
It's in their best interest to make more power, and they do it well...


----------



## DSS

Hedgerow said:


> If you all want to know which mix makes most power, why not just ask the race guys...??
> It's in their best interest to make more power, and they do it well...


Don't be making reasonable statements in this thread, Matt.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> well I'm going to try 32:1 vs 50:1 in the 660. if someone wants to come watch, help, make sure it's done properly, pm me.


How will you handle the tuning?


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> well I'm going to try 32:1 vs 50:1 in the 660. if someone wants to come watch, help, make sure it's done properly, pm me.



I'd rather watch paint dry.


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Please tell me you at least got enough brains to re-tune the damn thing before you run the 32:1..



And to run it enough to allow the fuel filter, line and carb to completely purge the other mix.


----------



## blsnelling

For those of you that are totally pitching out the results due to testing variables, I challenge you to look back at his previous tests. The results are *always* consistent. Test after test, month after month. As to why these results don't agree with older tests, I don't know. I for one am anxious to see the results from the 660. Regardless, I will not run 50:1 in my ported saws. I run it for the protection, period. During testing with a ported 346 with 50:1, I nearly burnt it up. I caught it just as it started to scuff. Similar testing has never been an issue with 32:1. Add in reports from the likes of JJ of how more oil helps prevent crank failure, particularly in Huskies, and I simply won't take the chance with less oil.


----------



## blsnelling

And for those of you that feel you need to attack the OP, just because you don't agree with or like his results....


----------



## Hedgerow

redbull660 said:


> well I'm going to try 32:1 vs 50:1 in the 660. if someone wants to come watch, help, make sure it's done properly, pm me.
> 
> if the 660 runs hotter and slower with 32:1 and runs faster and cooler with 50:1 ...then that is good enough for me. Theories are just that. Real world is real world.


Please tell me you at least got enough brains to re-tune the damn thing before you run the 32:1..


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> And for those of you that feel you need to attack the OP, just because you don't agree with or like his results....


Brad you of all people show know that not agreeing with other results and having your own opinion leads to a pissing match.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Let's see, if I start off at 50:1 , and change to 32:1 then I should have to retune idle and top end. that should show up on the fasttach.
> 
> I assume you'd want to retune back to the same idle and top end 50:1 was running. I'd be aiming for typical 2700-2800 and 13200 making sure it was 4 stroking.


I would agree with that. Then on the other hand, if one does make more power, perhaps it will need different tuning. I would be listening closely to see if the saw needed a different tune.


----------



## Mastermind

It's his attitude that gives me gas. Not his results.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> hahha likewise!



Repped.


----------



## Mastermind

It will be interesting to see how the 660 does. 

I really think the M-Tronic system has everything to do with the odd results of the first tests.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> For those of you that are totally pitching out the results due to testing variables, I challenge you to look back at his previous tests. The results are *always* consistent. Test after test, month after month. As to why these results don't agree with older tests, I don't know. I for one am anxious to see the results from the 660. Regardless, I will not run 50:1 in my ported saws. I run it for the protection, period. During testing with a ported 346 with 50:1, I nearly burnt it up. I caught it just as it started to scuff. Similar testing has never been an issue with 32:1. Add in reports from the likes of JJ of how more oil helps prevent crank failure, particularly in Huskies, and I simply won't take the chance with less oil.


Brad something else was wrong if you nearly burnt up a saw at 50:1 during testing?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Probably so. They ask how many rpms we turned, compression, and for how long the cuts were . All thoso guys werent dumb by far


If they did they would have to ask.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> For those of you that are totally pitching out the results due to testing variables, I challenge you to look back at his previous tests. The results are *always* consistent. Test after test, month after month. As to why these results don't agree with older tests, I don't know. I for one am anxious to see the results from the 660. Regardless, I will not run 50:1 in my ported saws. I run it for the protection, period. During testing with a ported 346 with 50:1, I nearly burnt it up. I caught it just as it started to scuff. Similar testing has never been an issue with 32:1. Add in reports from the likes of JJ of how more oil helps prevent crank failure, particularly in Huskies, and I simply won't take the chance with less oil.




fully agree you'd need more oil in a ported saw. More compression = oil easier displaced = more oil needed to maintain same required lube factor.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> fully agree you'd need more oil in a ported saw. More compression = oil easier displaced = more oil needed to maintain same required lube factor.


Please explain your theory on compression displacing oil?


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

I can't believe how serious this site gets, about oil.....


----------



## Mastermind

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> I can't believe how serious this site gets, about oil.....



It's pretty important to the motor and stuff.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Right on! Another pissing match. Who's the trouble maker?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I guess it all comes down to whats important to you, stock or ported, and how you use it.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> did you even watch the video? you can do the times your self! yes I umm watched the videos 3 x each and screwed up the times by 7 seconds. LOL!
> 
> the wood! LOL then there is no point to this at all. That is why I did 1 cut each and also used two logs. So both logs showed the same results, yet it's not reliable. HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHA If the wood changed that much, we wouldn't even have cutting contests at all.


Your efforts r appreciated Redbull. I think a few cuts with the 660 may satisfy a few more here?


----------



## Mastermind

Gypo Logger said:


> Right on! Another pissing match. Who's the trouble maker?




Who else? 

Brad of course.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Mastermind said:


> Who else?
> 
> Brad of course.


Figures, Consider him reported. Lol


----------



## Mastermind

What do you do for a living Mr. Redbull?


----------



## Mastermind

Gypo Logger said:


> Figures, Consider him reported. Lol



I'm gonna take the open mod spot SS vacated. I'll ban everyone then.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Suppose the Bel Ray @ 32:1 was the fastest then what would the argument be? Would the results then be more believable?


I know we all appreciate Redbulls efforts as I do. What should be considered here in the conversation would be several porters here commenting that have been inside many saws and what each oil we are discussing actually are doing to the insides


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> compression is measured in PSI pressure per sq inch right? If there is more pressure exerted on the surfaces, then oil gets displaced or spread thinner? Thus the film would be thinner and you'd need a heavier oil mix to maintain the same lube?


Except that the parts holding oil aren't really exposed to this pressure unless your rings are not sealing...


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Brad something else was wrong if you nearly burnt up a saw at 50:1 during testing?


Nope. I was testing for fastest cut times, pushing the envelope with the tune. Without the added protection of more oil, I almost overheated the piston. 32:1 gives me the protection to increase that buffer zone.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Nope. I was testing for fastest cut times, pushing the envelope with the tune. Without the added protection of more oil, I almost overheated the piston. 32:1 gives me the protection to increase that buffer zone.



How high was it taching Brad?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Nope. I was testing for fastest cut times, pushing the envelope with the tune. Without the added protection of more oil, I almost overheated the piston. 32:1 gives me the protection to increase that buffer zone.


Well, if you scuffed it you found the envelope. You were running too lean and 32:1 probably would not have made a differance.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> fully agree you'd need more oil in a ported saw. More compression = oil easier displaced = more oil needed to maintain same required lube factor.


It's not just the compression, it's also the RPMs. I was tuning a 346 in the cut yesterday. I pulled it out of the wood and it was turning 15,500. It was turning 12,700-13,000 in the cut. 50:1 leaves a very thin margin of error at those performance levels. It's simply not worth the risk. I haven't run 50:1 in a saw since that happened several years ago.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> Who else?
> 
> Brad of course.


My heart is crushed, lol.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Well, if you scuffed it you found the envelope. You were running too lean and 32:1 probably would not have made a differance.


I've tuned hundreds and hundreds of saws, most of them ported. Just ask the guys that hear me tune a saw on the ragged lean edge before a cant race. I've never scored a piston due to the tune. That one occurrence was the closest I came and was a very rare occurrence that I was using 50:1.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> I know we all appreciate Redbulls efforts as I do. What should be considered here in the conversation would be several porters here commenting that have been inside many saws and what each oil we are discussing actually are doing to the insides


What about guys that put more hours on a saw in a month than most ported saws will have in a lifetime? Their opinion is invalid?


----------



## 7sleeper

Haywire Haywood said:


> It all works, but I put the oil in first and let the churning of the gas being pumped in under pressure do the mixing. *I don't think I suggested running a saw at the pump station either. Where did you get that from?*
> 
> Ian


I believe you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that you recomend running at the pump station but that the mixed fuel has enough time through transport to the cutting site to become sufficiently mixed. I would only be afraid of problems if after initial mixing, in the first few minutes, the fuel mix was used in the saw. 

7


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I've tuned hundreds and hundreds of saws, most of them ported. Just ask the guys that hear me tune a saw on the ragged lean edge before a cant race. I've never scored a piston due to the tune. That one occurrence was the closest I came and was a very rare occurrence that I was using 50:1.


Brad, do you typically find that a saw cuts faster teams when leaned to the edge? It's been my expiereance that torque starts to drop off when doing that, but.I have no interest or expiereance in cutting cants
And I know from expiereance that you can toast a piston from running lean, even on castor at 16:1.


----------



## bwalker

7sleeper said:


> I believe you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that you recomend running at the pump station but that the mixed fuel has enough time through transport to the cutting site to become sufficiently mixed. I would only be afraid of problems if after initial mixing, in the first few minutes, the fuel mix was used in the saw.
> 
> 7


Why would you not just add oil then gas. Pumping the fuel in mixes it thoroughly, although I always shake it as well.


----------



## KG441c

NWCoaster said:


> Peer reviewed RESEARCH.......haaahaaahhaa, is that the guy with the "cleaner woodshed" or not so cluttered Charlie Foxtrot work bench doing that Scientific testing on his computer controlled Dynamometer like they have at Virginia Beach.....[/QUOTE





Mastermind said:


> It's pretty important to the motor and stuff.


Hell ya its a big deal! Why dont we all run no name motor oil in our vehicle if its no big deal?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Brad, do you typically find that a saw cuts faster teams when leaned to the edge? It's been my expiereance that torque starts to drop off when doing that, but.


Most definitely in cant racing. I would never run a saw that lean in big wood or when working. "Lean is mean" until you go too far.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> compression is measured in PSI pressure per sq inch right? If there is more pressure exerted on the surfaces, then oil gets displaced or spread thinner? Thus the film would be thinner and you'd need a heavier oil mix to maintain the same lube?


Exactly! Thats where the 800t and h1r 100% ester oil exceeds. Where the other oils film strength allow it to displace off the surfaces easier the ester molecules absorb and stay put


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Exactly! Thats where the 800t and h1r 100% ester oil exceeds. Where the other oils film strength allow it to displace off the surfaces easier the ester molecules absorb and stay put


Except the oil film isn't exposed to the full pressure of combustion...


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Except the oil film isn't exposed to the full pressure of combustion...


But it does put more stress on the bearings, where a higher film strength will protect better.


----------



## Mastermind

Hold on a minute. 

*Happy Easter Gentlemen.*


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> *Happy Easter Gentlemen.*


He is risen!


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

Mastermind said:


> It's pretty important to the motor and stuff.


I agree totally. 99% percent of ***, is probably run at 50-1 and gets along just fine. I just don't see the reason for such a pissing match over oil? Do what works best for your application, and be done with it. It would appear that some of these guys have way too much time on their hands.


----------



## Mastermind

We've got 20 - 30 kids hunting eggs right now. 

Seeing all my loved ones together is a great thing.


----------



## Mastermind

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> I agree totally. 99% percent of ***, is probably run at 50-1 and gets along just fine. I just don't see the reason for such a pissing match over oil? Do what works best for your application, and be done with it. It would appear that some of these guys have way too much time on their hands.



I don't like 50:1 in any ***. Yes, it will work........barely. The whole unit is dry and sooty when taken apart for inspection. Part of that is likely tune......but still....

Why spend 1000.00 on a pro saw......then skimp on oil?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> But it does put more stress on the bearings, where a higher film strength will protect better.


True, from the added heat and rpm.
The statement made Redbull660 is still false.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> What about guys that put more hours on a saw in a month than most ported saws will have in a lifetime? Their opinion is invalid?


Not at all . How much bigwood do u cut? 25" and up?


----------



## svk

Mastermind said:


> I don't use 32:1 for performance.......I never have given that any thought. I use 32:1 for longevity. Pro saws ain't cheap, and the extra oil is a good idea.


Same here. And up until this week my main saw was worth less than a woods port job.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Except the oil film isn't exposed to the full pressure of combustion...


Its as easy as if the oil is there and staying put or not. No film strength no protection


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

Mastermind said:


> I don't like 50:1 in any ***. Yes, it will work........barely. The whole unit is dry and sooty when taken apart for inspection. Part of that is likely tune......but still....
> 
> Why spend 1000.00 on a pro saw......then skimp on oil?


I agree as well, always ran 40-1/ultra and got along well, until this 2253/2260 came along. They don't seem to like my mixing of the two products. So I guess I try motomix for a while. Hope it works.like Stihl says it will.


----------



## svk

Mastermind said:


> Oh.......check out the RC airplane geeks. Their oil threads are epic.


Lol I don't think those guys are anal at all....


----------



## KG441c

svk said:


> Lol I don't think those guys are anal at all....


Yep and u will find what oil they like. H1r


----------



## Mastermind

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> I agree as well, always ran 40-1/ultra and got along well, until this 2253/2260 came along. They don't seem to like my mixing of the two products. So I guess I try motomix for a while. Hope it works.like Stihl says it will.



I've heard reports of Autotune saws not running well on 32:1.

Mine like it just fine. Weird? Yeah I guess.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Its as easy as if the oil is there and staying put or not. No film strength no protection


Except it doesn't work like that. And film strength is a function of viscosity, not quantity.


----------



## KG441c

I would be a nervous wreck running 50to1 in my ported saw! I would have the muffler off looking for scoring!!! Lol


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> I would be a nervous wreck running 50to1 in my ported saw! I would have the muffler off looking for scoring!!! Lol



Your 390XP would die........the big end rod bearing would go first.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

Mastermind said:


> I've heard reports of Autotune saws not running well on 32:1.
> 
> Mine like it just fine. Weird? Yeah I guess.


I wish I new, I think it could.have been the gas. I run co-op 89plus, e-free. Might have had a bad batch I guess.


----------



## Marshy

SAWMIKAZE said:


> So whats the conclusion fellas , i gotta fill my gas cans up tomorrow.


So far what I got was add your oil to your can after you put the gas in and the driving to the site alone is enough mixing... Although I still give the can a shake no matter what before fueling...YMMV



CR888 said:


> ...Prolonged use of full synthetics will reduce throttle response and reduce ring seal. lf l were to use full synthetics l would make sure l ran mineral oil every so often. Full synthetics certainly have there place, just not in my saws.


So you blame prolonged use of synthetic for reduced throttle response and reduced ring seal? Maybe you should consider the general wear that comes with prolonged use to be the cause. What do you believe the cause is specifically and how can the occasional use of nonsynthetic some how reverse the effect of said synthetic? BS IMO


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Your 390XP would die........the big end rod bearing would go first.


No chances of that happening my friend!! 32to1!! Lol!


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Except it doesn't work like that. And film strength is a function of viscosity, not quantity.


Like I said either the lubricating properties stay there and protect or they dont. What is your opinion on Redbulls test as to why the h1r runs cooler?


----------



## svk

@redbull660 thank you for the time you put into this. Results were interesting and whether m-t had anything to do with the the times is beyond my grade.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Anyone have tail lights for a Jonsered 49sp.....??


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

WoodChuck'r said:


> Anyone have tail lights for a Jonsered 49sp.....??


Would the ones off my 59 Cadillac work?


----------



## Mastermind

WoodChuck'r said:


> Anyone have tail lights for a Jonsered 49sp.....??



I'm yer huckleberry.......

PM me.


----------



## Gypo Logger

I think the bigger question is what negative results there would be from running 32:1 other than running too low rpm over the life of saw.


----------



## bwalker

My 562 runs like a top at 32: 1.


----------



## mdavlee

Mastermind said:


> I've heard reports of Autotune saws not running well on 32:1.
> 
> Mine like it just fine. Weird? Yeah I guess.


My 550 didn't like 110 fuel with K2. It needed a 1/4 tank to be able to idle without help


----------



## KG441c

My baby girls first Easter!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

bwalker said:


> My 562 runs like a top at 32: 1.



My 241 didnt skip a beat on friday with 6 tanks at 32:1

Ran very well.


----------



## svk

Gypo Logger said:


> I think the bigger question is what negative results there would be from running 32:1 other than running too low rpm over the life of saw.


I'm no expert. But my L65 made it about 35 years on 32:1 before it started losing compression. Granted some years I cut 2 cords and others I've done 20 plus.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Not at all . How much bigwood do u cut? 25" and up?


Well....25" is medium size at best and far from big. Are you really gonna questioning me about cutting big wood? Are you saying cookie cutters and firewood hacks cut bigger wood more often?[emoji23]


----------



## Mastermind

My wood is very hard......and quite large.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> My wood is very hard......and quite large.


Pics?


----------



## wendell

LOL


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Well....25" is medium size at best and far from big. Are you really gonna questioning me about cutting big wood? Are you saying cookie cutters and firewood hacks cut bigger wood more often?[emoji23]


Not at all Chris! I was simply trying to figure out if u trim limbs or actually cut larger wood in your business. I dont have a clue what your background is? How many saws have u rebuilt or ported?


----------



## WoodChuck'r

wendell said:


> LOL





This thread can get locked now.


----------



## Mastermind

KenJax Tree said:


> Pics?


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> So far what I got was add your oil to your can after you put the gas in and the driving to the site alone is enough mixing... Although I still give the can a shake no matter what before fueling...YMMV
> 
> 
> So you blame prolonged use of synthetic for reduced throttle response and reduced ring seal? Maybe you should consider the general wear that comes with prolonged use to be the cause. What do you believe the cause is specifically and how can the occasional use of nonsynthetic some how reverse the effect of said synthetic? BS IMO


Complete BS!


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Not at all Chris! I was simply trying to figure out if u trim limbs or actually cut larger wood in your business. I dont have a clue what your background is? How many saws have u rebuilt or ported?


I've rebuilt a few of my saws over the years...seals, bearings, rings, etc just from basic wear and tear never had anything completely grenade. I've never ported a saw. And as far as cutting wood...in 18 years of tree service i've done everything from a lilac bush to land clearing for housing, office buildings, stores, etc. i've definitely had my share of big wood.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I've rebuilt a few of my saws over the years...seals, bearings, rings, etc just from basic wear and tear never had anything completely grenade. I've never ported a saw. And as far as cutting wood...in 18 years of tree service i've done everything from a lilac bush to land clearing for housing, office buildings, stores, etc. i've definitely had my share of big wood.


Your opinion counts! Lol! I open alota saws up and see what cheap oils do to them. Ill pay extra for good oil.


----------



## MustangMike

I think I've learned some stuff here:

Randy, quit pretending you have large hard wood, we all know you don't even like pop ups!

Chris, you said the OP should know what happens when he disagrees with the going opinion .... yeah .... I think I remember something about that!

So my take (which may or may not be worth anything, but it is my take):

50:1 likely works fine in stock saws, they are designed to run on it, and until I joined this site I ran 50:1 for many years w/o any problems.

Porting obviously puts more stress on a saw, and these saws will function better with addl lubrication.

The reason some people have trouble with autotune and 32:1 and others don't *may *have to do with the octane of the gas they mix with. I believe Randy uses 87 octane, if you start with higher octane, the additional oil may increase the octane too much.

I run full synthetic at 40:1 with 93 octane, so I'm glad I don't have to take sides here! FYI, the Stihl manual states that higher octane gas runs cooler! (I have never done any of my own testing to confirm this).

I'm looking forward to more testing from the OP.

Happy Easter everyone!


----------



## bikemike

redbull660 said:


> oh I see now. Redbull obviously has an agenda?!??!!? Well what the heck is it?????? Give me a break. I posted results. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE "WHY or HOW".
> 
> 32:1 was 7 sec slower and it was hotter. Period. In all the testing I've done... 2-3 seconds is a lot. 7 seconds is an azz beating! Someone wants to watch me mix the gas and tension the chains and do the tests. Go for it. I DO NOT CARE!!!!!!! Be nice to have someone to BS with while I'm doing this stuff.
> 
> 
> and why is longevity so important to you porters anyway? You porters are building basically Hotsaws right? The whole point is to create insane performance. If 32:1 actually does kill performance that much...what is the point of porting? (if 32:1 has to be run in a ported saw due to the higher compression)


Did you tune the carb for each test. Hotter then it was leaner cause of thicker oil concentration. So any test was not accurate if ur running too lean ur not making more power even when it revin higher no load. Thas fuel and air makes the power. The oil lubes the engine. Temp tune for each mix ratio And then se what the times come out to. Bet you it wont be 2 3 seconds apart


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> I think I've learned some stuff here:
> 
> Randy, quit pretending you have large hard wood, we all know you don't even like pop ups!
> 
> Chris, you said the OP should know what happens when he disagrees with the going opinion .... yeah .... I think I remember something about that!
> 
> So my take (which may or may not be worth anything, but it is my take):
> 
> 50:1 likely works fine in stock saws, they are designed to run on it, and until I joined this site I ran 50:1 for many years w/o any problems.
> 
> Porting obviously puts more stress on a saw, and these saws will function better with addl lubrication.
> 
> The reason some people have trouble with autotune and 32:1 and others don't *may *have to do with the octane of the gas they mix with. I believe Randy uses 87 octane, if you start with higher octane, the additional oil may increase the octane too much.
> 
> I run full synthetic at 40:1 with 93 octane, so I'm glad I don't have to take sides here! FYI, the Stihl manual states that higher octane gas runs cooler! (I have never done any of my own testing to confirm this).
> 
> I'm looking forward to more testing from the OP.
> 
> Happy Easter everyone!


All motor gasoline has roughly the same BTU so 93 doesn't burn any hotter than 87.
I run non ethanol 93 in everything is a bit of insurance.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

93 burns a little slower than 87. and my equipment runs cooler on 93 as opposed to 87.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> 93 burns a little slower than 87. and my equipment runs cooler on 93 as opposed to 87.


It probably doesn't burn any slower or run any cooler.
Octane is a measure of a fuels resistance to detonation. Detonation takes time so the faster you can combust the better. Heat is a function of BTU and all motor gasoline has simular BTU content.


----------



## sunfish

The Mother of all oil threads! Cool...


----------



## Roll Tide

svk said:


> I'm no expert. But my L65 made it about 35 years on 32:1 before it started losing compression. Granted some years I cut 2 cords and others I've done 20 plus.


Saws built back then were not built to the tolerance saws today are.


----------



## Gologit

sunfish said:


> The Mother of all oil threads! Cool...



Yeah, Gary would be so proud.


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> Saws built back then were not built to the tolerance saws today are.


What are the tolerances of today's saws? How about those built back then?


----------



## Roll Tide

I don't know the exact numbers but I know they are tighter then they use to be. Same with car engines hence the different weight oils used today. Are you saying that they could build a saw with the technology they had in the old days that they do now?


----------



## bwalker

Saw technology is nearly the same.. Aircooled piston ported two strokes.
I would think the tolerances being tightened up would be limited by the aircooled part.
Auto engines run lighter oil due to CAFE mostly.


----------



## Roll Tide

I disagree.


----------



## KG441c

Rolltide how many hours does it take to become certified Stihl masterwrench? Ive been wanting to look into this


----------



## svk

Roll Tide said:


> Saws built back then were not built to the tolerance saws today are.


What's your point?


----------



## Roll Tide

KG441c said:


> Rolltide how many hours does it take to become certified Stihl masterwrench? Ive been wanting to look into this


Gold level you have to have three years of tech experience with a stihl dealer, pictures of your shop, your diagnostic tools, and turn in all the above and an application to Stihl. The rest is seat time similar to Silver school just a bit more technical.


----------



## KG441c

Roll Tide said:


> Gold level you have to have three years of tech experience with a stihl dealer, pictures of your shop, your diagnostic tools, and turn in all the above and an application to Stihl. The rest is seat time similar to Silver school just a bit more technical.


So what requirement is the silver basic certification?


----------



## Roll Tide

svk, post: 5304116, member: 41967"]What's your point?[/QUOTE]
Different tolerances may demand different oil mixtures.


----------



## Roll Tide

KG441c said:


> So what requirement is the silver basic certification?


Bronze is the basic certification which is done on the computer, silver is a two day seminar followed by a test.


----------



## KG441c

Roll Tide said:


> Bronze is the basic certification which is done on the computer, silver is a two day seminar followed by a test.


Okay thank you. Just trying to get an idea of pursuing it


----------



## Roll Tide

KG441c said:


> Okay thank you. Just trying to get an idea of pursuing it


 Honestly I learned more here then with any of the classes but you do get the hands on and walk thru all your diagnostic tests. It was enjoyable.


----------



## svk

Roll Tide said:


> Different tolerances may demand different oil mixtures.


And....


----------



## Mastermind

Roll Tide said:


> Honestly I learned more here then with any of the classes but you do get the hands on and walk thru all your diagnostic tests. It was enjoyable.



Tell the truth fapper. You learned the most looking over my shoulder.


----------



## bwalker

svk said:


> And....


Bikes with forged pistons require looser tolerances than those with cast pistons. Oil reccomendations stay the same.


----------



## Roll Tide

svk said:


> And....


This is a thread about different oil mixtures in which I was responding to.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Tell the truth fapper. You learned the most looking over my shoulder.


Wait a minute!!! Ive been askin for a day in that shop to learn something for 1.5 yrs!!!


----------



## Roll Tide

Mastermind said:


> Tell the truth fapper. You learned the most looking over my shoulder.


Honestly yes sir your correct.


----------



## svk

Roll Tide said:


> This is a thread about different oil mixtures in which I was responding to.


Yes and I said I mixed mine richer than mfg recommended and my saw lasted a very long time. You started talking about tolerances. I'm just wondering what your point is. Not trying to be a smart arse here.


----------



## Mastermind

Roll Tide said:


> I disagree.


----------



## Roll Tide

svk said:


> Yes and I said I mixed mine richer than mfg recommended and my saw lasted a very long time. You started talking about tolerances. I'm just wondering what your point is. Not trying to be a smart arse here.


I do the same. I mix at 40:1


----------



## Roll Tide

Mastermind said:


>


Cant see your pic.


----------



## Mastermind




----------



## Mastermind

Better?


----------



## svk

Mastermind said:


> Better?


Yup


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> H1R always required some odly different carb tuning to run right compared to other oils. Hence I lost interest in it sometime in the 90's. It also was on the dirty side.


Care to elaborate on the "dirty side" as most tests show its one of the cleaner oils...


----------



## Roll Tide

Mastermind said:


> Better?


Haha yes


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Care to elaborate on the "dirty side" as most tests show its one of the cleaner oils...


I'll show you pics tommorow.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I'll show you pics tommorow.


Mc1 or h1r


----------



## CR888

Redbull has taken much time to do his testing and share his results with the wider community. These are not scientific results and he does not claim them to be such. l thank him for his efforts as it has provided a platform to discuss oil and saws. lt seems sad some members feel the need to be so nasty to others, it does not benefit anyone and deters many from getting involved. We have lost to many knowledgeable members due to a minority few that were never taught manners. Those that can't be respectfull are the ones who need to get lost as they rarely offer anything useful.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Mc1 or h1r


H1R.


----------



## cuttinties

So 50:1 and a sugihara I should get 40% gains?


----------



## Mastermind

Have you got the 660 tested yet? It's dark here. 

Where's that popcorn?


----------



## KG441c

cuttinties said:


> So 50:1 and a sugihara I should get 40% gains?


Lol!!! What ratio do u favor and what flavor?


----------



## blsnelling

MustangMike said:


> The reason some people have trouble with autotune and 32:1 and others don't *may *have to do with the octane of the gas they mix with. I believe Randy uses 87 octane, if you start with higher octane, the additional oil may increase the octane too much.


I doubt it. I use nothing but premium.


----------



## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> Lol!!! What ratio do u favor and what flavor?


I use 40 SAE with leaded fuel. I like the smell of monocarbons in the morning.


----------



## KG441c

.


cuttinties said:


> I use 40 SAE with leaded fuel. I like the smell of monocarbons in the morning.


----------



## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> .


If you mix it with 15% monkey pizz it'll run like raped ape in an orange jump suit. Most use 20% but I'm a rebel I got scientific and stuffs.


----------



## redbull660

Gotta see what I have left for chain. The Amish farm I'm cutting at, he's busy..the local Amish community is building a barn for the next 4 days....maybe they don't want to listen to my saw? lol So this friday or saturday. Might be able to find some goonies some place else, but I doubt it, this early in the season.


----------



## Haywire Haywood

I was happy to see this sign up the road in Lexington last week.... I asked how often they empty the tank and they said it was a popular pump and they were the only no-ethanol retailer in town.


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Well....25" is medium size at best and far from big. Are you really gonna questioning me about cutting big wood? Are you saying cookie cutters and firewood hacks cut bigger wood more often?[emoji23]



Pfffttt...

Big is relative...

Sup Chris..?


----------



## Haywire Haywood

You shouldn't be showing your big wood to your relatives unless they are in the medical field.... It's just not right.


----------



## Mastermind

Oh my.


----------



## Husqavarna Guy

blsnelling said:


> I doubt it. I use nothing but premium.



I thought once you add in the oil it reduces the octane rating?


----------



## Mastermind

Husqavarna Guy said:


> I thought once you add in the oil it reduces the octane rating?



I think it raises octane......


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I think it raises octane......


Most oils don't have any effect on octane. Besides most of the oil drops out of suspension as soon as the fuel air mixture enters the crankcase. So in reality what oil is in the combustion chamber is coating the piston, head, cylinder walls, etc and not part of the charge being ignited.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Most oils don't have any effect on octane. Besides most of the oil drops out of suspension as soon as the fuel air mixture enters the crankcase. So in reality what oil is in the combustion chamber is coating the piston, head, cylinder walls, etc and not part of the charge being ignited.


Then why does H1R effect combustion?


----------



## bwalker

This is speculating, but I believe its because it has alot of diluent in its blend. The diluent is evaporated like the incoming fuel and makes its way to the combustion chamber.
Diluent is Stoddard solvent in many cases.


----------



## Mastermind

Oil is a very interesting topic for me.......

Does that make me an oil geek?


----------



## NWCoaster

Oil definately lowers octane.... quite severely actually. The more oil, the lower the end result. Should always start with higher octane to pervent detonation, which we all know is very detrimental to pistons/bearings.


----------



## bikemike

Octane booster With some oil and a splash of gas?


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Oil definately lowers octane.... quite severely actually. The more oil, the lower the end result. Should always start with higher octane to pervent detonation, which we all know is very detrimental to pistons/bearings.


Blanket statement and in practice mostly not true.


----------



## Mastermind

NWCoaster said:


> Oil definately lowers octane.... quite severely actually. The more oil, the lower the end result. Should always start with higher octane to pervent detonation, which we all know is very detrimental to pistons/bearings.



No where in my searching over the years have I found any proof of this. Quite the opposite actually.


----------



## NWCoaster

bikemike said:


> Octane booster With some oil and a splash of gas?


 Toluene is one of the most effective octane boosters there is and is readily available. 10% by volume in gasoline produces an octane rise of 2 full numbers. ( Most octane boost products quote points of octane rise, there are ten points in one full octane number)


----------



## bwalker

Give you an example. I Currently have a 09 yZ-250 that's very sensitive to detonation. I run the bike at 32:1 and premium non ethanol pump fuel. However, if I make a weekend trip to the dunes I will run it at 20:1 with only minor changes to the low speed jetting. It doesn't detonate a bit. Now, if I were to lean the main jet out two sizes or the weather got the 30's it will detonate at either ratio.
This is with Yamalube 2R btw.


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Toluene is one of the most effective octane boosters there is and is readily available. 10% by volume in gasoline produces an octane rise of 2 full numbers. ( Most octane boost products quote points of octane rise, there are ten points in one full octane number)


Toluene will indeed boost octane, but it's also hell on rubber parts and can make starting difficult in cold weather when used at high concentrations.


----------



## NWCoaster

Mastermind said:


> No where in my searching over the years have I found any proof of this. Quite the opposite actually.


 So you didn't ACTUALLY read the articles that you posted links to earlier?????
Quote from the second article you know everything about:
One of the things you should do, is run high octane gas with any two-stroke mix. When all of the two strokes (the old days) were developed, they all used Castrol petroleum oil at a 20:1 ratio and found that 92 octane gas had the octane reduced to 72 with presence of that much oil. Modern oils won’t affect the fuel quite as much, but if you started with 86 or 87 octane regular fuel, you can see where you’ll end with a very low octane mix. You could end up with a “pinging” bike.


----------



## bikemike

Yeah not a big fan of octane booster. But i have had great results running plane fuel in my old race bikes it burns clean unlike 110 octane race fuel. They have some additives but that is also for moisture reasons.


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> Yeah not a big fan of octane booster. But i have had great results running plane fuel in my old race bikes it burns clean unlike 110 octane race fuel. They have some additives but that is also for moisture reasons.


Av gas works in a pinch, especially in applications where instant throttle response isn't required.

You will also never have a a varnish issue with it as it lasts forever.


----------



## MustangMike

I don't understand how oil can lower octane rating if a diesel motor (all oil) can run compression of over 20:1. Is 2 cycle oil in some way different?

If adding gas to oil raised the octane, you could safely add gas to diesel (don't try this at home!!!).


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> So you didn't ACTUALLY read the articles that you posted links to earlier?????
> Quote from the second article you know everything about:
> One of the things you should do, is run high octane gas with any two-stroke mix. When all of the two strokes (the old days) were developed, they all used Castrol petroleum oil at a 20:1 ratio and found that 92 octane gas had the octane reduced to 72 with presence of that much oil. Modern oils won’t affect the fuel quite as much, but if you started with 86 or 87 octane regular fuel, you can see where you’ll end with a very low octane mix. You could end up with a “pinging” bike.


I call complete BS on that with modern oils. Although I suspect it was BS in the 70's too.


----------



## KG441c

I like Sunoco 110 blue / 87efree at 50/50 mixed @ 32:1 with h1r. Never had a tuning issue or depoist buildup but only a light brown transparent like stain on piston top


----------



## Trx250r180

Andyshine77 said:


> Then why does H1R effect combustion?


Do your engines run different with it ?


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> I don't understand how oil can lower octane rating if a diesel motor (all oil) can run compression of over 20:1. Is 2 cycle oil in some way different?
> 
> If adding gas to oil raised the octane, you could safely add gas to diesel (don't try this at home!!!).


Diesel is designed to ignite by compression. Totaly different kettle of fish.


----------



## redbull660

ok oil geeks! Chew on this.... I better get some serious amount of likes outta this one! heh

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

Sir, well i did the test. I've attached a picture of the spreadsheet with the numbers.

- The stihl and belray 50:1 did the best time wise. I show *32.8 because I had a hangup during the cut.

- It appears that Belray gets to it's temp faster than stihl. Stihl 50:1 cut
1 cyl temp =248 vs 265 on belray 50:1. but the belray stays cooler on cut 2.
stihl 50:1 cut 2 - 285 vs 273 belray 50:1. Gotta like that!

- lot of guys are wondering why the heavier mix (42:1 and 32:1) didn't perform better...actually many were thinking the 32:1 would win on both time and heat and the exact opposite happened...it did the worst...by a lot on
time. Would you have an answer on that?

Does it have to do with the compression of the stock saw at approx 170psi vs what many of them have are "ported" saws running 215 psi?

Respectfully,







-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

As you know I am no expert on saws, but since the data collection was done so well, I think I have a pretty clear picture. When you are adding more oil to the mixture you are providing more oil to form the fluid film in the cylinder. That film does offer some resistance to the movement of the piston and could slow it down some. Remember, the main goal of the lubricant is to protect before anything else. It is protecting the surface but it will also impede the movement slightly because of its physical nature.
Now, when you are talking about rpms in the low thousands of larger engines, the difference will be small, but when you start reaching the high rpms of a wide open throttle in a small 2-stroke motor, the difference in engine speed can be more noticeable. Therefore, the saw is spinning just slightly slower and the cutting would take longer. This would also affect the temperature because as the engine is spinning slower, the fuel/oil mix is entering at a slower rate so there is less fuel and oil entering into the cylinder to cool the piston.
Based on your data, I think that is an accurate assessment of what is occurring and why the numbers are coming out the way they are. It looks to me that the 42:1 mix is a safe bet based on the temperatures. From cut 1 to cut 2 it had the smallest temperature gap meaning that amount of oil is keeping the cylinder the steadiest temperature and not getting too hot over time. The other oil and mixtures have larger temperature gaps so you don't have as good of an equilibrium as you are seeing with the 42:1 in terms of friction and cooling.

I honestly couldn't tell you what the compression difference between the saws would do, but as long as you test the same compression saw, the differences you recorded tell you a lot.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

Well that makes a lot of sense. thank you!

The particular saw tested has an autotune setup which checks several criteria approx 33 times a second. Several guys think that the saw wasn't automatically adjusting to the new mixes. Based on what you said I'm thinking this is now unlikely. Their position is that I may need to perform a "reset" process to reset the computer for each mix. This seems highly unlikely, given the range of variables this computer/autotune has to be set for for the end user. Temperature, quality of gas, elevation, quality of air and so on.

So obviously I am of the opinion that it seems highly unlikely that a reset would need to be performed. BUT I will ask anyway... are you aware of any common practice where such a "reset" would be performed given these changes of oil/gas mixture? (50:1 down to 32:!) ?

Next question - would it be fair to say that a higher compression would displace or shall we say spread out/thin out the oil film vs lower compression? Thus you would want a heavier mix of oil closer to 32:1 for a higher compression motor?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

I honestly don't know about the computer resets so I wouldn't want to give you the wrong information regarding that. For the most part, higher compression isn’t going to physically affect the oil film much. That is not to say that compression doesn't have any affect on the oil, but you won't notice a difference in the oil's physical behavior with that compression change. With any compression, bulk oil gets pushed to the sides and down along the piston skirt, but the films will remain in tact because oil is not a very compressible liquid. The oil films are affected much more strongly by the pressures between the piston and the cylinder than it is by the combustion compression.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

reset - no problem at all. It would just be speculation anyway. Unless it was a generally accepted/known/performed practice.

- would it be fair to say a higher quality oil like belray h1r at 50:1 vs a lower quality oil at 50:1 would provide a better film?

- What are some of the reasons that Belray would recommend going from say a
42:1 mix to a 32:1 mix?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

Yes in general you can use less of a high quality oil than you would of a low quality oil, and the oil film it provides is better than the Stihl oil for sure.

The only reason to go from a leaner ratio to a richer oil mix would be if the engine is under lubricated and not getting enough oil. When I mentioned in my previous email about reaching that equilibrium, that is what you want in any 2-stroke engine is to find the equilibrium mix ratio. This provides a steady temperature without spikes, enough oil to lubricate but not too much oil that will bog the engine down and reduce the power. If you find there isn’t a good film or overheating of the surfaces, you may want to increase to a 32:1.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

So to find equilibrium, would you say the main thing to actually look for wouldn't necessarily be speed. But instead, steady temperature readings?
Or maybe a combo of both? If both, then, just eyeballing it, I would guess
somewhere in the middle of 42 and 50 for this particular saw, probably 45:1.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

Yes maybe 45:1. If you are opening up the case and pulling the pistons periodically, that is a good source of information too. The temperature is good, the speed is relevant too. If you look at the piston and can see that there aren't any deposits and there is a film of oil on all the moving parts, then you have found or are at least adequately close to your equilibrium point with the oil.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

So my piston head after running Stihl now for about 20 tanks has some nice black baked on finish...any chance running belray will clear that up?
regardless I'll still use it and be good with it. I'm just hopeful it'll clear up.

So combo of speed, steady temps, and how the parts look?


..and would this be a correct statement? Most oils don't have any effect on octane. Besides most of the oil drops out of suspension as soon as the fuel air mixture enters the crankcase. So in reality what oil is in the combustion chamber is coating the piston, head, cylinder walls, etc and not part of the charge being ignited.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

Yes you should see those black deposits clear up over time. It's hard to say how quickly, but the H1-R should definitely begin cleaning it up.

Yes that combination will tell you just about all you need to know in order to make the correct mix ratio choice.

Yes that statement is very accurate. Typical oils will not affect combustion for those reasons. It does burn, but not explosively like gasoline to attribute to octane rating.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

*continued...*


----------



## redbull660

Redbull says -

excellent!

so does belray h1r affect combustion? if so, how? you said "typical oils

will not"...belray isn't typical ! 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

It is typical in that way haha. You'll remember in a previous email I went in to how the H1-R affects the different octane rating measurements. It only affects the octane by a fraction of 1/5 of 1 octane, so it is fairly negligible of an affect on the combustion process.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

haha  well that's good!

I know one gentlemen wanted me to ask... Ok so he has a regular carb that requires screw driver adjustment H, L, Idle. According to him, and I quote "H1R does seem to burn clean, but it changes the combustion properties of the fuel mix, you have to open up the jets quite a bit to compensate.....

Why does H1R require more fuel than most other 2T oils? The only other oils that leaned out the mixture that much, had some castor oil in it. Is it the solvent in the oil or the oil itself? "

--------------------------------------------------------

belray says -

That is a common occurrence when using H1-R and well understood. Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well.

-------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

stihl ultra syn 40:1 92 eth free after 13 tanks.








----------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

That is some serious buildup on the piston. It may take longer than I originally thought for the H1-R to clear it up, but you should definitely see a difference going forward.

----------------------------------------------------

Redbull says -

that was my friend's piston. I was running 45:1 and mine looks a little better, however I do not have a picture. You can actually gently scrape away some of the black stuff on mine. ...would that indicate he was running to rich of a mix and burning oil? And I'm guessing this wouldn't happen with belray...just proves how much stihl sucks...which makese sense they are

a high production firm not geared around racing. But, the question

remains, was the 40:1 mix so rich and...well. I shouldn't speculate what is going on, because I'm hoping you'll tell me! haha

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

The amount of oil can affect it, but the oil's detergency is the biggest contributor to whether there are deposits or not. I would assume that the Stihl oil is probably the base of just what the engine needs to run and nothing more. H1-R uses very clean burning ester base stocks which also contribute to detergency and also has detergency additives on top of that to boost the cleanliness of the oil.


----------



## bikemike

bwalker said:


> Av gas works in a pinch, especially in applications where instant throttle response isn't required.
> 
> You will also never have a a varnish issue with it as it lasts forever.


Id say a 400cc bike pulling a 6 second climb on a 300 foot hill isn't slow response


----------



## bwalker

I'm not buying there response.. you think they are the only two cycle oil maker that doesn't use a diluent?
And how do make the connection between not affecting octane somehow means the oil doesn't effect combustion.

I have used H1R and it's really unremarkable in every way..


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> I call complete BS on that with modern oils. Although I suspect it was BS in the 70's too.


 Pretty much EVERYTHING you say is complete and utter crap...... where do you come up with this s&!t?????? You must just make it up as you go.... cracks me up!


----------



## Alu

My chainsaw Expert Olav Antonsen, myself and about 90% in nordic people all use aspen 50:1 not mutch build up on piston.. Some in the exhaust port tho. Yes me and Olav both run ported ones without hassle. The aspen fuel is pure and more helty too. No smell inside the van. I know snelling and masterm. probably skreaming now.. 40:1 but that is not awaileble and as wee see not needed.
Olav also hawe a 350ccm Yamaha hot saw ca50hp that runs smooth on same fuel, the cost on fuel you Get used to. If you look up on you tube Olav has a saw withch is two saws interlinked with same crank axel. Must ask if i could try it once


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Pretty much EVERYTHING you say is complete and utter crap...... where do you come up with this s&!t?????? You must just make it up as you go.... cracks me up!


Prove it jackass.. your lack of knowledge is appalling..


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> Id say a 400cc bike pulling a 6 second climb on a 300 foot hill isn't slow response


That application doesn't really require crisp response..


----------



## Outlaw5.0

First off 2 cycle oil and regular motor oil are totally different animals. Regular motor oil does lower octane and cause detonation and preignition. Most 2 cycle oil according to my sources are on the lower burn rate wagon, but there is no real measurable octane difference unless the oil has a octane booster.


----------



## NWCoaster

MustangMike said:


> I don't understand how oil can lower octane rating if a diesel motor (all oil) can run compression of over 20:1. Is 2 cycle oil in some way different?
> 
> If adding gas to oil raised the octane, you could safely add gas to diesel (don't try this at home!!!).


 Diesel engine fuel has a Cetane rating which is somewhat the opposite effect of what Octane rating is. Cetane is the rating for how much ability the fuel has to self ignite under the pressure and heat formed in a high compresion ratio cylinder. The higher the Cetane rating, the better ability the fuel has to ignite and burn at a constant controlled burn rate. You dont want the octane effect in a Diesel engine, just the opposite.


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Diesel engine fuel has a Cetane rating which is somewhat the opposite effect of what Octane rating is. Cetane is the rating for how much ability the fuel has to self ignite under the pressure and heat formed in a high compresion ratio cylinder. The higher the Cetane rating, the better ability the fuel has to ignite and burn at a constant controlled burn rate. You dont want the octane effect in a Diesel engine, just the opposite.


Cetane= how easy a fuel combusts from compression.
Octane= how well a fuel resists detonation.


----------



## Mastermind

NWCoaster said:


> So you didn't ACTUALLY read the articles that you posted links to earlier?????
> Quote from the second article you know everything about:
> One of the things you should do, is run high octane gas with any two-stroke mix. When all of the two strokes (the old days) were developed, they all used Castrol petroleum oil at a 20:1 ratio and found that 92 octane gas had the octane reduced to 72 with presence of that much oil. Modern oils won’t affect the fuel quite as much, but if you started with 86 or 87 octane regular fuel, you can see where you’ll end with a very low octane mix. You could end up with a “pinging” bike.



I just scanned it over quickly.......not focusing on octane. 

Could be the whole article is complete ********? 

Anyway........I use 87 octane. I add 4 oz of oil. I cut wood.


----------



## Mastermind

Thanks for taking the time to research all this Julian.

It is very interesting.


----------



## bikemike

bwalker said:


> That application doesn't really require crisp response..


Its not pavement


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> Its not pavement


I am well aware of what hill climbing is like because I have done it...
For grins look up the distillation curve for av gas and that for one of vp's two stroke specific mx fuels. You.will.ntice some rather large differance in the low boiling points between the two.


----------



## Mastermind

It is my understanding that AV gas is for planes only.......

But much of what I thought I knew is coming unraveled.


----------



## bwalker

I would like to see the test ran with a carbed saw that is tuned for the fastest cut in the wood with each ratio. It still would have a ton of variable, but would be better.


----------



## porsche965

Can you do this test for us all bwalker? I'd like to see it.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Can you do this test for us all bwalker? I'd like to see it.


I could....


----------



## bikemike

Where do you notice throttle response is slow for these bikes. Like i said hillclimbs. Wish i had vids of my old bike in action at the nationals


bwalker said:


> I am well aware of what hill climbing is like because I have done it...
> For grins look up the distillation curve for av gas and that for one of vp's two stroke specific mx fuels. You.will.ntice some rather large differance in the low boiling points between the two.


So is the av gas the high boil point do the less pressure at elevation? I know i have good luck with it at the katocycleclub nationals and my bike took 3rd over all in redwing 450cc and under singles.


----------



## bikemike

bikemike said:


> Where do you notice throttle response is slow for these bikes. Like i said hillclimbs. Wish i had vids of my old bike in action at the nationals
> 
> So is the av gas the high boil point do the less pressure at elevation? I know i have good luck with it at the katocycleclub nationals and my bike took 3rd over all in redwing 450cc and under singles.


Guess what i was getting at is a high octane that dont ash up like cool blue 110 and other track fuels.


----------



## mdavlee

Interesting conversation with the belray tech.


----------



## Marshy

I hear acetone is an effective octane booster.


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> Where do you notice throttle response is slow for these bikes. Like i said hillclimbs. Wish i had vids of my old bike in action at the nationals
> 
> So is the av gas the high boil point do the less pressure at elevation? I know i have good luck with it at the katocycleclub nationals and my bike took 3rd over all in redwing 450cc and under singles.


A fuel designed for a two cycle application like mx will have low end boiling points much lower than avgas. Avgas has the higher boiling points because throttle response isn't an issue, but vapor lock is.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Mastermind said:


> It is my understanding that AV gas is for planes only.......
> 
> But much of what I thought I knew is coming unraveled.


You are correct, its a high attitude burn rate deal. Many people still use it in their cars...............and many burn up their motor's.


----------



## bwalker

Outlaw5.0 said:


> You are correct, its a high attitude burn rate deal. Many people still use it in their cars...............and many burn up their motor's.


BS. When I lived in the CA bush and all we could get was avgas we ran it everything from outboards to four wheelers to trucks. Will poison cat converters very fast.


----------



## bikemike

bwalker said:


> A fuel designed for a two cycle application like mx will have low end boiling points much lower than avgas. Avgas has the higher boiling points because throttle response isn't an issue, but vapor lock is.


Av gas is used in 2 and 4 stroke engines the rotax is a major part of the small personal aircraft feild for ultra lights and and small kit sport planes


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> Av gas is used in 2 and 4 stroke engines the rotax is a major part of the small personal aircraft feild for ultra lights and and small kit sport planes


True, but there are also operated at steady throttle, so response isn't an issue.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have heard it is made for up in the sky also ,so have not run it .


----------



## bwalker

If some one sends me a email I will post pictures of that H1R piston I have.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I have heard it is made for up in the sky also ,so have not run it .


You can run it just fine, it just feels alittle dead when on and off the throttle.


----------



## bikemike

Trx250r180 said:


> I have heard it is made for up in the sky also ,so have not run it .


I just know that i have run it in a 2 cycle it wasnt run for long periods but it did make plenty of power for the 3 minutes the bike ran for warm up hole shots and race on the hill


----------



## flyinghunter

MustangMike said:


> I don't understand how oil can lower octane rating if a diesel motor (all oil) can run compression of over 20:1. Is 2 cycle oil in some way different?
> 
> If adding gas to oil raised the octane, you could safely add gas to diesel (don't try this at home!!!).


Diesel octane is quite low, can't remember off the top of my head but around 60? Burns as it's hitting the hot compressed air.


----------



## flyinghunter

bikemike said:


> Where do you notice throttle response is slow for these bikes. Like i said hillclimbs. Wish i had vids of my old bike in action at the nationals
> 
> So is the av gas the high boil point do the less pressure at elevation? I know i have good luck with it at the katocycleclub nationals and my bike took 3rd over all in redwing 450cc and under singles.


Yes. Boiling point lowers with less air pressure.


----------



## Marshy

This is a perfect progression for this thread, from oil to octane to...? Any bets?

Used fryer oil is about as toxic as used motor oil and shouldnt be used for bar oil... just sayin.


----------



## flyinghunter

bwalker said:


> BS. When I lived in the CA bush and all we could get was avgas we ran it everything from outboards to four wheelers to trucks. Will poison cat converters very fast.


And most oxygen censors.


----------



## flyinghunter

Sometimes a diversion is a good thing. A bit of time for everyone to sit cross legged and say oooooooommmmmm. 
Feel better now?


----------



## Outlaw5.0

bwalker said:


> BS. When I lived in the CA bush and all we could get was avgas we ran it everything from outboards to four wheelers to trucks. Will poison cat converters very fast.


You can use it in what ever you want, it's your money. Some of us have real world experience and choose to use the correct fuel for the application.


----------



## bwalker

Outlaw5.0 said:


> You can use it in what ever you want, it's your money. Some of us have real world experience and choose to use the correct fuel for the application.


Yea, like me...and I didn't have a choice, but it still worked fine.


----------



## bwalker




----------



## bwalker




----------



## MustangMike

I stand corrected. Diesel is lower octane than gas. The reason is a diesel motor compresses only air, then injects the diesel, so diesel fuel does not need to be high octane.

If it were compressing an air fuel mix, like a gas engine, it would never work.

Learn something every day!


----------



## bwalker

This piston was ran 36.9 hours as measured by a digital hour meter on premium pump and H1R @ 40:1. I bought the bike and put a new top end in it right away, although the bike ran fine.
Anyone see anything wonky with the piston crown?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> This piston was ran 36.9 hours as measured by a digital hour meter on premium pump and H1R @ 40:1. I bought the bike and put a new top end in it right away, although the bike ran fine.
> Anyone see anything wonky with the piston crown?


Lumpy like muh shorts


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Lumpy like muh shorts


**** yourself again?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> **** yourself again?


Ahsheet Muhdrawrs


----------



## MustangMike

Is is not supposed to be domed?


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Is is not supposed to be domed?


No, it's a domed piston. check out the outside of the crown. Shoes evidence of detonation all the way around the crown. I am not supprised the friend that owned it was a "A" class rider and it was jetted right to the edge. This particular model motor also has been known to have a head thats border line for pump fuel.


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> This piston was ran 36.9 hours as measured by a digital hour meter on premium pump and H1R @ 40:1. I bought the bike and put a new top end in it right away, although the bike ran fine.
> Anyone see anything wonky with the piston crown?


 Yesh, too lean and lots of blow by.


----------



## OldJack

Marshy said:


> I hear acetone is an effective octane booster.



Back in the 1930s the 37 liter Rolls-Royce R engine held the air speed, land speed and water speed records. It ran on a real witch's brew. "For the 1931 airspeed record attempt acetone was added to prevent intermittent misfiring, the composition of this final blend was 30% benzole, 60% methanol, and 10% acetone, plus 4.2 cc of tetra-ethyl lead per gallon.[19]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_R#Supercharger_and_fuel


----------



## Marshy

OldJack said:


> Back in the 1930s the 37 liter Rolls-Royce R engine held the air speed, land speed and water speed records. It ran on a real witch's brew. "For the 1931 airspeed record attempt acetone was added to prevent intermittent misfiring, the composition of this final blend was 30% benzole, 60% methanol, and 10% acetone, plus 4.2 cc of tetra-ethyl lead per gallon.[19]"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_R#Supercharger_and_fuel


 Thats an amazing piece of technology for the year it was produced. Always fun to read the history of things like this. Thanks for the share.


----------



## blsnelling

More oil = more protection. That's why we run it. If it costs just a bit of performance, so be it. Everything is a compromise in building performance anyway. Think about a supercharger. It takes quite a lot of HP to turn a supercharger. That doesn't mean it's not beneficial and should be removed. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get the idea. Do we need 32:1? Maybe not. Do we need more than 50:1? IMHO, absolutely! I'm not ready to invest the time and energy in finding the sweet spot for each oil in my engines. Until someone else does it for me, I'll continue running 32:1.

When looking for the perfect oil ratio of a particular oil, cut times and 10-20* of cylinder temp would not be my deciding factor. I would think you would need to actually find where a saw failed, and then see what it took to prevent that failure. There are just so many variables that I'm not even sure how you would go about it. Redbull obviously isn't prepared to destroy his saws in this investigation. Hopefully we'll be able to pull some valuable knowledge from this discussion. I'm just not at all comfortable with saying mix XYZ was faster and ran 20* cooler, so it's better.  That does not measure the level of protection. It sounds to me that there's a balancing act between protection and performance. I personally will err on the side of protection.

Enough rambling!!!


----------



## Marshy

blsnelling said:


> More oil = more protection. That's why we run it. If it costs just a bit of performance, so be it. Everything is a compromise in building performance anyway. Think about a supercharger. It takes quite a lot of HP to turn a supercharger. That doesn't mean it's not beneficial and should be removed. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get the idea. Do we need 32:1? Maybe not. Do we need more than 50:1? IMHO, absolutely! I'm not ready to invest the time and energy in finding the sweet spot for each oil in my engines. Until someone else does it for me, I'll continue running 32:1.
> 
> When looking for the perfect oil ratio of a particular oil, cut times and 10-20* of cylinder temp would not be my deciding factor. I would think you would need to actually find where a saw failed, and then see what it took to prevent that failure. * There are just so many variables that I'm not even sure how you would go about it.* Redbull obviously isn't prepared to destroy his saws in this investigation. Hopefully we'll be able to pull some valuable knowledge from this discussion. I'm just not at all comfortable with saying mix XYZ was faster and ran 20* cooler, so it's better. That does not measure the level of protection. It sounds to me that there's a balancing act between protection and performance. I personally will err on the side of protection.
> 
> Enough rambling!!!


 
On a dyno is where I would start.


----------



## blsnelling

Marshy said:


> On a dyno is where I would start.


That would ONLY measure performance. IMHO, that's less than 1/2 the equation.


----------



## MustangMike

A question to Randy & Brad ... I know you are both devout 32:1 fans, and I understand why. I get that 50:1 is minimal protection, likely not enough for most ported engines.

Have you guys seen many oil related failures from people running 40:1? Thanks.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm not in a position to answer that. I don't take in rebuild work and only see saws already in good running order.


----------



## Sagetown

redbull660 said:


> ok oil geeks! Chew on this.... I better get some serious amount of likes outta this one! heh
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Redbull says -
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *continued...*


Redbull; just want to congratulate you for that survey. Your conversation with Belray was interesting and informative.
Thank you for sharing this with us.


----------



## Marshy

blsnelling said:


> That would ONLY measure performance. IMHO, that's less than 1/2 the equation.


 I agree, the other half of the equation is reliability. That means lots and lots of hours of running the machine at a riven ratio. Not something that is easilly measured. But the questions are, what the best performance, what the best reliability, and as an end user which level of compromise are you willing to tolerate?


----------



## blsnelling

That is where destruction testing and/or lots of tear downs would be required to evaluate the protection given.


----------



## Marshy

Fast, cheap, reliable, pick 2.


----------



## blsnelling

Look at the oils run in drag cars engines. They most always run much heavier oil. 20W-50, SAE30, SAE 50, etc... I'm sure it costs some HP, but it's required to protect the engine from self destruction.


----------



## Marshy

Different addatives too like high zinc content.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Yesh, too lean and lots of blow by.


I don't believe what you are seeing on the skirts was blow by. The rings were in good shape and the bore was not out of round. The marks also correspond with the exhaust ports and transfer ports.
Just deposits related to heat.
Just for reference with the same exact cylinder and same brand piston I have double the hours on it with 2R at 32:1 and everything below the crown is bare metal.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> On a dyno is where I would start.


Yes, although you could just save yourself some time as others have done it and the results are the opposite of this test.


----------



## porsche965

I wonder if there is an increased health concern with carcinogens breathing heavy amounts of oil? 

Is H1R's esters a chemical or naturally derived product? 

There was a midget at a Stihl Dealership that was a friend of mine. He was really knowledgeable and enjoyed his job. He knew every spec of every saw Stihl ever made. SawTroll reminds me of him lol. 

Anyway Robert developed throat Cancer before 50 and died. Some thought being around a high volume dealer with lots of engines running throughout the day and his location relative to the ground and fumes contributed to his demise. 

I realize that midgets usually don't live too long and this is a quirky story in an oil thread but sometimes the easiest answers we search for are right in front of us. He worked through his treatments until he passed. He was very well liked. I think of him when I'm Goonie Busting bent down low behind a 50" log at the end of a long cut on a windless day....


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I wonder if there is an increased health concern with carcinogens breathing heavy amounts of oil?
> 
> Is H1R's esters a chemical or naturally derived product?
> 
> There was a midget at a Stihl Dealership that was a friend of mine. He was really knowledgeable and enjoyed his job. He knew every spec of every saw Stihl ever made. SawTroll reminds me of him lol.
> 
> Anyway Robert developed throat Cancer before 50 and died. Some thought being around a high volume dealer with lots of engines running throughout the day and his location relative to the ground and fumes contributed to his demise.
> 
> I realize that midgets usually don't live too long and this is a quirky story in an oil thread but sometimes the easiest answers we search for are right in front of us. He worked through his treatments until he passed. He was very well liked. I think of him when I'm Goonie Busting bent down low behind a 50" log at the end of a long cut on a windless day....


H1R uses an ester base, so it's a petro chemical.
However, inhaling the gasoline fumes would be more detrimental I would think. Which is why the newer lower emissions saws are not such a bad thing.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> H1R uses an ester base, so it's a petro chemical.
> However, inhaling the gasoline fumes would be more detrimental I would think. Which is why the newer lower emissions saws are not such a bad thing.


All these mixes we r using are classified as Carcinogens. BWalker do you think these oils burn differently in dirtbikes compared to ported saws?


----------



## KG441c

I have not seen the discoloration of that magnitude on my piston tops using H1R or Motul 800t. Amsoil Saber? Yes I have after the 1st tank of fuel the piston top was soot blackened


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> All these mixes we r using are classified as Carcinogens. BWalker do you think these oils burn differently in dirtbikes compared to ported saws?


I won't say that none are but I have looked at most of the popular oil brands MSDS sheets and I have never seen one that was a a carcinogen.
No, I think the oils function the same way in a bike as the do in a saw.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I won't say that none are but I have looked at most of the popular oil brands MSDS sheets and I have never seen one that was a a carcinogen.
> No, I think the oils function the same way in a bike as the do in a saw.


I disagree on both statements


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I have not seen the discoloration of that magnitude on my piston tops using H1R or Motul 800t. Amsoil Saber? Yes I have after the 1st tank of fuel the piston top was soot blackened


Its normal for a piston top to be black. At least for a motor that's got any run time on it. What you don't want to see is any mettalic deposits who h present as crusty, raised deposits either right under the sparkplug or near the exhaust side.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I disagree on both statements


Your right to be wrong. Take a peak at the MSDS sheets and get back with me..


----------



## KG441c

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...9/?temp_hash=74deb1e8ddc74206db450c489e82c932


----------



## bwalker

Notice it says " this product is not carcinogenic"?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Item 11 on that msds of toxicological information clearly states h1r as a carcinogen? Id be willing to bet you can go to every msds of each manufacturer and it would state the same? From a legal standpoint they are probably required to state it though


Better look again... it clearly states under item #11 the quote I posted above.


----------



## KG441c

BWalker u r right is says not considered buy read the statement after. Due to the lack of data classification not possible! Lol! Wonder what they r trying to cover up?? Dont think Id want to drink a quart!! Lol! Do u have any pics of yamalube piston tops? Ive ran Yamalube, hp2, and r50 in my yz250 with 0 issues


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> BWalker u r right is says not considered buy read the statement after. Due to the lack of data classification not possible! Lol! Wonder what they r trying to cover up?? Dont think Id want to drink a quart!! Lol! Do u have any pics of yamalube piston tops? Ive ran Yamalube, hp2, and r50 in my yz250 with 0 issues


It tells me there is a lack of data to support it being labeled a carcinogen...
I do not have any other pistons on hand currently. Typically don't save them.


----------



## KG441c

Im wondering about the oil reacting differently in the shorter stroke vs the longer strokes of the bikes?


----------



## bwalker

The pattern I have noticed is that oils perform very similar in a saw as a bike ie the pattern of deposits look similar when the same oil is ran in a saw as a bike. I have not tried every oil out there, but that's been my observation with the ones I have tried.


----------



## KG441c

What comes to mind in paticular is more trapped compressions effect on seperation of the mix vs less trapped compression?


----------



## KG441c

And do different oils react differently in that enviroment?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What comes to mind in paticular is more trapped compressions effect on seperation of the mix vs less trapped compression?


Are you talking about crankcase pressure? If so this is influenced by crankcase volume and not stroke.


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> And do different oils react differently in that enviroment?


What do you mean by react differently?


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> View attachment 417498


Well that doesnt look so great... All other pics ive seen eg, " rc plane test motor and husksthil" pistons have all had next to zero deposits on them. I wonder why you have such a dirty piston?!
Have you run 800t and was it showing the same results?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Are you talking about crankcase pressure? If so this is influenced by crankcase volume and not stroke.


yes thats what I meant . Sorry


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Well that doesnt look so great... All other pics ive seen eg, " rc plane test motor and husksthil" pistons have all had next to zero deposits on them. I wonder why you have such a dirty piston?!
> Have you run 800t and was it showing the same results?


No, I havent for a couple of reasons.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> No, I havent for a couple of reasons.


Please do tell...
Are you also saying that huskstihl and the RC guys tune is overly rich hence why there getting no deposits and you are?


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> What do you mean by react differently?


Im not sure exactly! Lol! Thinkin out loud mostly but was wondering if the oil is seperating in the crankcase and adhering to the surfaces, is it more desirable for it to seperate sooner or later and does compression affect this and do different oils do this better than others according to their makeup?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> No, I havent for a couple of reasons.


What do u not like about 800t?


----------



## Marshy

Flatie said:


> Well that doesnt look so great... All other pics ive seen eg, " rc plane test motor and husksthil" pistons have all had next to zero deposits on them. I wonder why you have such a dirty piston?!
> Have you run 800t and was it showing the same results?


That carbon on the piston is typical of any 2 stroke engine. If you have a piston without that black carbon then it's either running way too rich or does not have enough run time.


----------



## Marshy

KG441c said:


> Im not sure exactly! Lol! Thinkin out loud mostly but was wondering if the oil is seperating in the crankcase and adhering to the surfaces, is it more desirable for it to seperate sooner or later and does compression affect this and do different oils do this better than others according to their makeup?


Why do you believe the oil separates out of solution? I don't think that happens. I've never heard of it happening and don't see how that is possible. If you have some supporting data I would like to read about it. I think your are over complicating things in your own mind.


----------



## Flatie

Marshy said:


> That carbon on the piston is typical of any 2 stroke engine. If you have a piston without that black carbon then it's either running way too rich or does not have enough run time.



Is 5 gallons enough run time? Someone posted a pic of there piston tops the other day which was run on 800t and there was "zero" deposits after.


----------



## KG441c

Maybe so but why is their oil left behind on the surfaces if it isnt seperating?


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> More oil = more protection. That's why we run it. If it costs just a bit of performance, so be it. Everything is a compromise in building performance anyway. Think about a supercharger. It takes quite a lot of HP to turn a supercharger. That doesn't mean it's not beneficial and should be removed. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get the idea. Do we need 32:1? Maybe not. Do we need more than 50:1? IMHO, absolutely! I'm not ready to invest the time and energy in finding the sweet spot for each oil in my engines. Until someone else does it for me, I'll continue running 32:1.
> 
> When looking for the perfect oil ratio of a particular oil, cut times and 10-20* of cylinder temp would not be my deciding factor. I would think you would need to actually find where a saw failed, and then see what it took to prevent that failure. There are just so many variables that I'm not even sure how you would go about it. Redbull obviously isn't prepared to destroy his saws in this investigation. Hopefully we'll be able to pull some valuable knowledge from this discussion. I'm just not at all comfortable with saying mix XYZ was faster and ran 20* cooler, so it's better. That does not measure the level of protection. It sounds to me that there's a balancing act between protection and performance. I personally will err on the side of protection.
> 
> Enough rambling!!!



Good post. 

I'm staying with 32:1 as well. I am gonna give Yamalube 2R a try though. 



MustangMike said:


> A question to Randy & Brad ... I know you are both devout 32:1 fans, and I understand why. I get that 50:1 is minimal protection, likely not enough for most ported engines.
> 
> Have you guys seen many oil related failures from people running 40:1? Thanks.



No I've not. 

I recommend that all OE oils (Stihl Ultra, Husky silver, etc be used at 40:1 in the engines I modify. Belray, Motul, etc at 32:1.


----------



## Marshy

Flatie said:


> Is 5 gallons enough run time? Someone posted a pic of there piston tops the other day which was run on 800t and there was "zero" deposits after.


Probably not. I've run 300 miles on a new snowmobile top end and it was just starting to show carbon shadow on te domes.


----------



## Marshy

KG441c said:


> Maybe so but why is their oil left behind on the surfaces if it isnt seperating?


Gas evaporates and leaves behind oil. Besides what you were seein wasn't all oil but still a solution of oil and gas.


----------



## KG441c

Marshy said:


> Gas evaporates and leaves behind oil. Besides what you were seein wasn't all oil but still a solution of oil and gas.


Oh ok. Do some oils stay behind and adhere better than others?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> And do different oils react differently in that enviroment?





blsnelling said:


> What do you mean by react differently?





KG441c said:


> Im not sure exactly! Lol! Thinkin out loud mostly but was wondering if the oil is seperating in the crankcase and adhering to the surfaces, is it more desirable for it to seperate sooner or later and does compression affect this and do different oils do this better than others according to their makeup?





Marshy said:


> Why do you believe the oil separates out of solution? I don't think that happens. I've never heard of it happening and don't see how that is possible. If you have some supporting data I would like to read about it. I think your are over complicating things in your own mind.





KG441c said:


> Maybe so but why is their oil left behind on the surfaces if it isnt seperating?





Marshy said:


> Gas evaporates and leaves behind oil. Besides what you were seein wasn't all oil but still a solution of oil and gas.



I think you're way over thinking this. I don't see it as a function of a particular oil or engine. That's just how all 2-stroke engines work. A particular oil lubricates well, or it doesn't. A particular oil burns well, or it doesn't.


----------



## KG441c

Personally I think a better indicator of lubrication in these oils we r discussing would be film strength rather than flashpoints? Im not buying oil is oil. Different additives will make oils react either better or not


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> I think you're way over thinking this. I don't see it as a function of a particular oil or engine. That's just how all 2-stroke engines work. A particular oil lubricates well, or it doesn't.


And thats what im getting at. Oil isnt oils? Some r better than others depending on the formulation


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Why do you believe the oil separates out of solution? I don't think that happens. I've never heard of it happening and don't see how that is possible. If you have some supporting data I would like to read about it. I think your are over complicating things in your own mind.


That's exactly what happens. Premix enters the crank case in the form of fine liquid droplets. It then encounters the high temps of the internal parts after which the fuel vaporize and the oil is deposited on said internal parts. Of course the high boiling point components of the fuel may not vaporise, but the majority of it does.
One of the reasons a two stroke smokes alot at startup is that the motor is cool and a large part of the fuel mixture makes it to the combustion chamber in liquid form. Liquids don't combust so the engine is doggy and smoky till it comes up to temp.


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Different additives will make oils react either better or not


I don't *think* oils react at all. Perhaps an engine reacts differently to different oils, but an oil is what it is, regardless of the engine it's in. With that said, some oils are going to work better in different engines.


----------



## KG441c

Brad theres alota folks on here that think any of the oils are good. Im not buying it. Personally I may give the Lucas a serious try


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Personally I think a better indicator of lubrication in these oils we r discussing would be film strength rather than flashpoints? Im not buying oil is oil. Different additives will make oils react either better or not


film strength is a components of viscosity. High viscosity oils have higher flashpoints. 
In a two stroke it's far more complex than just film strength or else we would be running castor oils.


----------



## Mastermind

Here Keith......

Enjoy this read. 

http://www.wdarc.org/articles_files/2 stroke Oil Test.pdf


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Please do tell...
> Are you also saying that huskstihl and the RC guys tune is overly rich hence why there getting no deposits and you are?


That could be one reason.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Here Keith......
> 
> Enjoy this read.
> 
> http://www.wdarc.org/articles_files/2 stroke Oil Test.pdf


Well Randy you know we have been down this oil thing before! Ratio, octane, Brands, additives. We r never gonna get to a conclusion. What was the statement I remember? Never take any one persons advice as gospel?


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Here Keith......
> 
> Enjoy this read.
> 
> http://www.wdarc.org/articles_files/2 stroke Oil Test.pdf


I have seen that test and others like that. The problem with them is they are ran at steady throttle and for a limited amount of time.


----------



## bwalker

Has anyone considered the corrosion protection factor? Some synthetics are terrible at this, especially ester synthetics.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I have seen that test and others like that. The problem with them is they are ran at steady throttle and for a limited amount of time.


But chainsaws are steady throttle especially in bigwood?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Has anyone considered the corrosion protection factor? Some synthetics are terrible at this, especially ester synthetics.


But wouldnt the corrision only be a factor if the equipment was sat up?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Brad theres alota folks on here that think any of the oils are good. Im not buying it. Personally I may give the Lucas a serious try


With today's technology, most oils are very good. It's nothing like the oils off yester years. I don't specify to my customers what oil to use. I simply tell them to use a full synthetic (cleaner burning) and mix it at 32:1, no less than 40:1.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I have some Bel Ray MC-1 i got from my MX buddy i want to use up....good? Bad? I assume its on par with Motul 710, its a synthetic oil but don't have all the additives for power valves and stuff like 800 and H1R


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> In a two stroke it's far more complex than just film strength or else we would be running castor oils.


Yes, I have considered that. That is no longer a concern with most of these ester based oils we're talking about. They have additives in them to deal with that.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> But chainsaws are steady throttle especially in bigwood?


You run a saw at steady throttle for three hours straight?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I have some Bel Ray MC-1 i got from my MX buddy i want to use up....good? Bad? I assume its on par with Motul 710, its a synthetic oil but don't have all the additives for power valves and stuff like 800 and H1R


Yamaha rig free additive will clean one up or keep it clean


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> But wouldnt the corrision only be a factor if the equipment was sat up?


Rust can happen pretty quick in humid climates or those with salt air.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> You run a saw at steady throttle for three hours straight?


Who says steady throttle is limited to 3 hrs?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Yes, I have considered that. That is no longer a concern with most of these ester based oils we're talking about. They have additives in them to deal with that.


Deal with what?
And ester oils are nothing new.. they were around in the 70's.
Most of the new JASO-FD, ISO-EG oils are not ester based


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Who says steady throttle is limoted to 3 hrs?


The test was ran at steady throttle for 3+ hours straight..


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Deal with what?


Corrosion protection.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> The test was ran at steady throttle for 3+ hours straight..


A ported saw cutting 50" wood for 20 cuts would be full throttle I think or milling using a full tank of fuel non stop would be my idea of full throttle for a saw? To me that would require a lower ratio and properly adjusted tune. Personally I think ester oils far exceed in this application


----------



## bwalker

Excus


KG441c said:


> A ported saw cutting 50" wood for 20 cuts would be full throttle I think or milling using a full tank of fuel non stop would be my idea of full throttle for a saw? To me that would require a lower ratio and properly adjusted tune. Personally I think ester oils far exceed in this application


Excuse me it was 6 hours straight...
Even cutting 50" wood for twenty cuts you would have the time between cuts where the engine is at idle.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> A ported saw cutting 50" wood for 20 cuts would be full throttle I think or milling using a full tank of fuel non stop would be my idea of full throttle for a saw? To me that would require a lower ratio and properly adjusted tune. Personally I think ester oils far exceed in this application


I wouldn't get too hung up on ester bases or any other base. Some oils are good and some are not as good.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Corrosion protection.


Marine oils usually have corrosion additives, but air cooled oils typical do not. Air cooled oils do typical have some calcium based detergents in their blend and these will neutralize acids that cause corrosion, but a very limited amount. Esters are the absolute worst for corrosion as some some are hydroscopic and they are unstable in the presence of moisture.
General speaking of course.


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> Well Randy you know we have been down this oil thing before! Ratio, octane, Brands, additives. We r never gonna get to a conclusion. What was the statement I remember? *Never take any one persons advice as gospel?*



Exactly. 

That goes for me or anyone else. 

My ideas change over time, and as new information is revealed to me. 

Like this 262 on my bench with a popup. When I did that saw I was convinced that there was no difference in how compression was increased......only that it was increased. I was very proud of my popup pistons, and did a bunch of saws with them. 

I've given the tuning of H1R a lot of thought lately. When I'm at the lathe my mind is everywhere. 

I really don't like the idea that the oil I run may not tune the same as the oil the next user adds to the saw. 

Hopefully Yamalube R2 won't stink like crap (or perfume) and runs clean. It's still gonna be used at 32:1, but will ease my mind on the tune thing.


----------



## bwalker

2R has very little smell.


----------



## blsnelling

From what I understand, most, if not all, of these ester based oils we are discussing have corrosion inhibitors and or simply it's not an issue.


----------



## blsnelling

Here's a good write up from a motorcycle forum.

*This isn’t exactly a scientifically conducted test, it’s just my opinions and observations about several different oils that I have tried over the last few years, on both my KX250 and my KDX250. All of these results are obtained running a 26:1 ratio, with jetting as close to perfect as I am capable of. Each oil was used through the life of at least one top-end. I only use Wiseco pistons and rings.

Golden Spectro: This oil did a good job of protecting the piston and cylinder. The piston was a little shiny on the intake side, but wear was within specs, and the piston and cylinder otherwise looked OK. There was a good coating of residual oil in both the top and bottom of the engine. It is a dirty-burning oil, however. It leaves a lot of carbon deposits on the piston crown and head, and really gums up the ring grooves and the power valves. And this oil spooges! No matter how sharp you try to jet, the spooge simply can’t be completely eliminated. I wouldn’t run this oil again unless I had no alternative, it’s just too dirty. As a side note that may or may not be related to the oil, this is the only pre-mix that I have ever had an engine failure while using, with the thrust-bearings on the KDX250 crank pin seizing. It was probably just a fluke, and I can’t pin it down to lubrication failure, but it’s always stuck in my head.

Maxima Super-M: This oil didn’t protect the piston as well as I would like to see in my engines. The piston was noticably shiny and scuffed on both the intake and exhaust sides, and the top-end was almost dry upon tear-down, although the bottom-end seemed to be well lubed. The ring grooves were reasonably clean, but the piston crown and head had significant deposits, as well as the powervalves, although not as bad as the Golden Spectro. Another oil that I just can’t recommend, it just doesn’t seem to leave the engine well lubricated or clean. I also felt this oil left an off-color on the plugs, making jetting a little more difficult. 

Maxima Castor 927: Very slight scuffing on the intake side of the piston, but over-all everything looked good. The ring grooves had slight deposits, and the piston crown and head had slight build-up that was well within reason. The powervalves were gummy, but not to the point of seizing or failing, again within reason for a non-synthetic oil, and excellent for a castor-based oil. Both the top and bottom-end of the engine were very oily and well-lubed with plenty of residual build-up. And the smell of this oil is wonderfully sweet, better than any other oil I’ve used. I liked using this oil just for the smell! Overall a good oil with no real bad points.

Redline: This was a strange oil. The piston and cylinder looked good, with minor shiny spots but no scuffing, and everything was reasonably clean and well-lubed. But this oil actually left surface rust on the crank wheels, and tarnished the carb brass. It also had a tendency to gum up the carb jets for some reason. How a metal surface can be both oily and have rust on it is beyond me, but clearly this oil lacks any proper corrosion-inhibitors. I would suppose it must have a high polyol-ester concentration, which would have the tendency to attract moisture. I would never use it again, nor could I recommend it.

Mobil 1 MX2T: The piston and cylinder looked great with this oil. No noticable shiny spots or scuffing on the piston at all. The top and bottom of the engine were well lubed with plenty of residual build-up, and even the powervalves were oily and lubed. No other oil that I’ve used compares to the cleanliness of this oil. The piston, head, and powervalves were nearly spotless, the valves didn’t even really need cleaning. If I were a serious racer, this would be my oil of choice. The only reason I no longer use it is the awful, acrid-smelling exhaust it produces. Since I just play-ride with my buddies, they all complained strongly about the smell when they were riding behind me, and my brother-in-law went so far as to tell me he would ban me from riding with him if I didn’t change oils. Another minor negative, mainly just a personal peeve, is that this oil is clear, with no dyes, making it impossible to tell if the fuel you are using has oil mixed in it. Not a serious flaw, but it could be a possible bad thing if you have a two-stroke and a four-stroke gas container without labels, or if you can’t remember if you already put the oil in the gas or not.

Bell Ray H1R: This oil was similar to the Super-M in every way. It left the piston shiney and scuffed-looking, although the top-end wasn't left as dry looking. Deposits were less than with the Super-M, but still heavy enough on the valves to be a problem for riders that run their top-ends for extended periods of time. I could see this oil gumming up the valves enough to cause them to stop functioning. An acceptable but un-exceptional oil.

Yamalube 2R: For a dino-based semi-synthetic oil, this is an exceptional product that performs as well as any full-synthetic out there. The piston and cylinder always look good, with no significant shiny spots or scuffing. The ring grooves, piston crown, and combustion chamber were very clean, with only a light circular carbon pattern on the crown and head. The valves are almost as clean as with MX2T, although not clean enough to not need removing and cleaning. The top and bottom of the engine are always well lubed with plenty of residual oil, even on the powervalves. This is my oil of choice, and I whole-heartedly recommend it to everyone, racer and casual rider alike.*


----------



## bwalker

Brad, if you look at a VoA for them you will often find they do not.
I used one popular ester based oil that was so bad it tarnished carb brass and formed sludge in float bowls. I also had a snowmobile ran on a ester based get develop rust on the crank shaft lobes.
OTOH hand I ran mobil mx2t for years with no issues, but it's a carboxylic ester not the di-ester commonly used.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Here's a good write up from a motorcycle forum.
> 
> *This isn’t exactly a scientifically conducted test, it’s just my opinions and observations about several different oils that I have tried over the last few years, on both my KX250 and my KDX250. All of these results are obtained running a 26:1 ratio, with jetting as close to perfect as I am capable of. Each oil was used through the life of at least one top-end. I only use Wiseco pistons and rings.
> 
> Golden Spectro: This oil did a good job of protecting the piston and cylinder. The piston was a little shiny on the intake side, but wear was within specs, and the piston and cylinder otherwise looked OK. There was a good coating of residual oil in both the top and bottom of the engine. It is a dirty-burning oil, however. It leaves a lot of carbon deposits on the piston crown and head, and really gums up the ring grooves and the power valves. And this oil spooges! No matter how sharp you try to jet, the spooge simply can’t be completely eliminated. I wouldn’t run this oil again unless I had no alternative, it’s just too dirty. As a side note that may or may not be related to the oil, this is the only pre-mix that I have ever had an engine failure while using, with the thrust-bearings on the KDX250 crank pin seizing. It was probably just a fluke, and I can’t pin it down to lubrication failure, but it’s always stuck in my head.
> 
> Maxima Super-M: This oil didn’t protect the piston as well as I would like to see in my engines. The piston was noticably shiny and scuffed on both the intake and exhaust sides, and the top-end was almost dry upon tear-down, although the bottom-end seemed to be well lubed. The ring grooves were reasonably clean, but the piston crown and head had significant deposits, as well as the powervalves, although not as bad as the Golden Spectro. Another oil that I just can’t recommend, it just doesn’t seem to leave the engine well lubricated or clean. I also felt this oil left an off-color on the plugs, making jetting a little more difficult.
> 
> Maxima Castor 927: Very slight scuffing on the intake side of the piston, but over-all everything looked good. The ring grooves had slight deposits, and the piston crown and head had slight build-up that was well within reason. The powervalves were gummy, but not to the point of seizing or failing, again within reason for a non-synthetic oil, and excellent for a castor-based oil. Both the top and bottom-end of the engine were very oily and well-lubed with plenty of residual build-up. And the smell of this oil is wonderfully sweet, better than any other oil I’ve used. I liked using this oil just for the smell! Overall a good oil with no real bad points.
> 
> Redline: This was a strange oil. The piston and cylinder looked good, with minor shiny spots but no scuffing, and everything was reasonably clean and well-lubed. But this oil actually left surface rust on the crank wheels, and tarnished the carb brass. It also had a tendency to gum up the carb jets for some reason. How a metal surface can be both oily and have rust on it is beyond me, but clearly this oil lacks any proper corrosion-inhibitors. I would suppose it must have a high polyol-ester concentration, which would have the tendency to attract moisture. I would never use it again, nor could I recommend it.
> 
> Mobil 1 MX2T: The piston and cylinder looked great with this oil. No noticable shiny spots or scuffing on the piston at all. The top and bottom of the engine were well lubed with plenty of residual build-up, and even the powervalves were oily and lubed. No other oil that I’ve used compares to the cleanliness of this oil. The piston, head, and powervalves were nearly spotless, the valves didn’t even really need cleaning. If I were a serious racer, this would be my oil of choice. The only reason I no longer use it is the awful, acrid-smelling exhaust it produces. Since I just play-ride with my buddies, they all complained strongly about the smell when they were riding behind me, and my brother-in-law went so far as to tell me he would ban me from riding with him if I didn’t change oils. Another minor negative, mainly just a personal peeve, is that this oil is clear, with no dyes, making it impossible to tell if the fuel you are using has oil mixed in it. Not a serious flaw, but it could be a possible bad thing if you have a two-stroke and a four-stroke gas container without labels, or if you can’t remember if you already put the oil in the gas or not.
> 
> Bell Ray H1R: This oil was similar to the Super-M in every way. It left the piston shiney and scuffed-looking, although the top-end wasn't left as dry looking. Deposits were less than with the Super-M, but still heavy enough on the valves to be a problem for riders that run their top-ends for extended periods of time. I could see this oil gumming up the valves enough to cause them to stop functioning. An acceptable but un-exceptional oil.
> 
> Yamalube 2R: For a dino-based semi-synthetic oil, this is an exceptional product that performs as well as any full-synthetic out there. The piston and cylinder always look good, with no significant shiny spots or scuffing. The ring grooves, piston crown, and combustion chamber were very clean, with only a light circular carbon pattern on the crown and head. The valves are almost as clean as with MX2T, although not clean enough to not need removing and cleaning. The top and bottom of the engine are always well lubed with plenty of residual oil, even on the powervalves. This is my oil of choice, and I whole-heartedly recommend it to everyone, racer and casual rider alike.*


Its a shame the discontinued mx2t.... but yamalube 2r is a good replacement.


----------



## HuskStihl

Mastermind said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That goes for me or anyone else.
> 
> My ideas change over time, and as new information is revealed to me.
> 
> Like this 262 on my bench with a popup. When I did that saw I was convinced that there was no difference in how compression was increased......only that it was increased. I was very proud of my popup pistons, and did a bunch of saws with them.
> 
> I've given the tuning of H1R a lot of thought lately. When I'm at the lathe my mind is everywhere.
> 
> I really don't like the idea that the oil I run may not tune the same as the oil the next user adds to the saw.
> 
> Hopefully Yamalube R2 won't stink like crap (or perfume) and runs clean. It's still gonna be used at 32:1, but will ease my mind on the tune thing.


The good news is that if u'r tuning for H1R, going to anything else will make it richer/safer. If somebody who doesn't know how the H1R affects tuning is at the lean edge with stihl oil at 50:1, and throws in H1R at 32:1, they will go way lean


----------



## Trx250r180

Ms 660 i only use for milling ,h1r 32 to 1 ,the way the muffler is here ,everything is nice and oily ,if i choke it down with a stock muffler things are all dry inside without touching the carb ,i will have to see if can get a little mirror to photo the piston top ,as wet as everything is ,it should soften most carbon and be pretty clean i would think .


----------



## blsnelling

Bwalker, was that a Redline oil?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Bwalker, was that a Redline oil?


Yep.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Ms 660 i only use for milling ,h1r 32 to 1 ,the way the muffler is here ,everything is nice and oily ,if i choke it down with a stock muffler things are all dry inside without touching the carb ,i will have to see if can get a little mirror to photo the piston top ,as wet as everything is ,it should soften most carbon and be pretty clean i would think .View attachment 417626
> View attachment 417627
> View attachment 417628
> View attachment 417629
> View attachment 417630


The muffler should be dry.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Yep.


Redline is known for that.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> The muffler should be dry.


I imagine that he tunes a milling saw much richer. I also suspect that's why some people have cleaner piston crowns.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Redline is known for that.


It is.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> The muffler should be dry.


I tune my saws for a long bar ,they may be richer than someone with a shorter bar would tune to ,i drop a 32 inch bar into a log ,and adjust till get the most power ,in smaller stuff it does 4 stroke a lot ,milling the saw pulls clean in the cut ,no 4 stroking ,i have played a lot with exhaust ports ,the more i let the saw breathe the wetter the can gets ,my triple ported saws have wet muffler cans also on smaller saws .So trapping the heat in i was getting dryer mufflers ,but i would rather have a cooler saw .


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I imagine that he tunes a milling saw much richer. I also suspect that's why some people have cleaner piston crowns.


I am sure he does, but given the load invoked it should still be clean.
It's a fine line but if one gets real rich the crown will be when nearly clean.


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> Ms 660 i only use for milling ,h1r 32 to 1 ,the way the muffler is here ,everything is nice and oily ,if i choke it down with a stock muffler things are all dry inside without touching the carb ,i will have to see if can get a little mirror to photo the piston top ,as wet as everything is ,it should soften most carbon and be pretty clean i would think .View attachment 417626
> View attachment 417627
> View attachment 417628
> View attachment 417629
> View attachment 417630


Dont see how it can get better than that!


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I tune my saws for a long bar ,they may be richer than someone with a shorter bar would tune to ,i drop a 32 inch bar into a log ,and adjust till get the most power ,in smaller stuff it does 4 stroke a lot ,milling the saw pulls clean in the cut ,no 4 stroking ,i have played a lot with exhaust ports ,the more i let the saw breathe the wetter the can gets ,my triple ported saws have wet muffler cans also on smaller saws .So trapping the heat in i was getting dryer mufflers ,but i would rather have a cooler saw .


I have always tuned a saw using a tach in the cut with the bar I planned on using. Basicly you tune it till it cuts best and a good starting point is slightly leaner than when the motor four strokes in the cut.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Dont see how it can get better than that!


I had a pic posted of my Grefardized then EHP built ms 260 back in the day, but it is no longer on the site. It showed the muffler piston and cylinder.
I'll see if I can post a pic tonight.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have always tuned a saw using a tach in the cut with the bar I planned on using. Basicly you tune it till it cuts best and a good starting point is slightly leaner than when the motor four strokes in the cut.


That is more or less how i tune ,but i use my ears instead of a tach ,my saws are modded so a tach is worthless in my opinion ,unless you know where the particular saw is happiest at ,all personal preference ,i bet if i put a tach on my hybrid it would be in the 15k range plus ,that saw revs much higher than my 461 or 660 does ,if my saw 4 stokes way too much or burbles after the long bar tune ,i will go 1/8 leaner at a time till cleans up .I am still going to be richer than most will set at ,but it works for what i do .


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I tune my saws for a long bar ,they may be richer than someone with a shorter bar would tune to ,i drop a 32 inch bar into a log ,and adjust till get the most power ,in smaller stuff it does 4 stroke a lot ,milling the saw pulls clean in the cut ,no 4 stroking ,i have played a lot with exhaust ports ,the more i let the saw breathe the wetter the can gets ,my triple ported saws have wet muffler cans also on smaller saws .So trapping the heat in i was getting dryer mufflers ,but i would rather have a cooler saw .



My 461 was tuned at 14000 , it seemed to run really well there , i had the belray mixed at 32:1 and my muffler was soaked with oil inside..good or bad fellas ?


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> My 461 was tuned at 14000 , it seemed to run really well there , i had the belray mixed at 32:1 and my muffler was soaked with oil inside..good or bad fellas ?


Potato


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I tune my saws for a long bar ,they may be richer than someone with a shorter bar would tune to ,i drop a 32 inch bar into a log ,and adjust till get the most power ,in smaller stuff it does 4 stroke a lot ,milling the saw pulls clean in the cut ,no 4 stroking ,i have played a lot with exhaust ports ,the more i let the saw breathe the wetter the can gets ,my triple ported saws have wet muffler cans also on smaller saws .So trapping the heat in i was getting dryer mufflers ,but i would rather have a cooler saw .


I use a substantial piece of wood and load the saw heavily. When you find the highest rpm that cuts the fastest while doing this you are bang on. And I have used it on the half dozen modified saws I have owned


----------



## bwalker

Older Stihls like the 440, 360, 260 etc burn pretty damn dirty because there port layout was pretty crude. Husky's transfer port setup on saws like the 346 and 372 always scavenged much better. Also why the Husky's were faster than that era stihls


----------



## KG441c

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=301126503616&alt=web


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> Potato


----------



## Mastermind

Well......

I like turtles.


----------



## blsnelling

I like oil!


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> I like oil!



Deep fried turtle?


----------



## blsnelling

I wonder if turtle meat is oily, kind of like duck maybe? 

Maybe banana oil? Randy, you could work out a deal with an oil vendor, have them add essence of banana, and make a fortune!


----------



## Mastermind

I added some banana scent to a 5 gallon jug of gas before a GTG once. That stuff was horrible.


----------



## bwalker

Klotz Super Techniplate smells awesome.. too bad it's crap.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Klotz Super Techniplate smells awesome.. too bad it's crap.


927 in race gas for the win!


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> 927 in race gas for the win!





blsnelling said:


> 927 in race gas for the win!


I'll one up you..927 in vp mr-2. The smell of MTBE in that fuel.in concert with the castor was intoxicating.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I'll one up you..927 in vp mr-2. The smell of MTBE in that fuel.in concert with the castor was intoxicating.


I am old enough to have run the Trick leaded fuel with 927 , gas was blue was almost worth taking second place to smell that stuff


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> 927 in race gas for the win!


927 in VP C12[emoji7] Klotz BeNOL smells nice too


----------



## Mastermind

You guys are sick.......sick I tell ya.


----------



## Hedgerow

blsnelling said:


> I wonder if turtle meat is oily, kind of like duck maybe?
> 
> Maybe banana oil? Randy, you could work out a deal with an oil vendor, have them add essence of banana, and make a fortune!


No.. Chewy.. Like fried clams..


----------



## Mastermind

It makes great stew.


----------



## Hedgerow




----------



## blsnelling

I ran the 927 in Cam2 in my Banshee.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

blsnelling said:


> I ran the 927 in Cam2 in my Banshee.


banshee's are sloooooow.....................


----------



## blsnelling

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> banshee's are sloooooow.....................


Only of your on a 250R with a stroked BB kit! One guy at the dunes had a 370 on methanol. That thing was wicked fast!


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

blsnelling said:


> Only of your on a 250R with a stroked BB kit! One guy at the dunes had a 370 on methanol. That thing was wicked fast!


 just poking at you man...................i have an 88' with a CT330 kit, and an 89' with a CT370 kit. i have not run them in years. used to run them at silver lake every weekend back in the day, they ran pretty good. we used to have alot of fun up there riding and camping.


----------



## blsnelling

I would love to go up there again! It's been 10-11 years now.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

Me too, probably just to watch more than anything. Not sure if this old body or my antique quads could take much riding anymore.


----------



## blsnelling

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> Not sure if this old body or my antique quads could take much riding anymore.


Isn't that the truth! I honestly don't know how my body would react. I'm not even close to what I was 10 years ago.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm more of a man now than I ever was. 






in my dreams


----------



## MustangMike

Ahh ... you youngsters .... gwon!!!


----------



## redbull660

ok oil geeks. so it seems...

- belray doesn't like to burn very easily. Thus you have to increase fuel by I think article said 15%. Mastermind posted it back on page 37 I think.

- belray is a very heavy viscosity pure ester oil which provides enormous protection.

- So if it provides so much more protection than other oils. Why couldn't you reduce the amount of oil in the mix from 32:1 to say 40:1?

- assuming that Stihl ultra is a lessor quality oil than belray. Why is it (generally) accepted that Stihl ultra can be run at 40:1. While Belray which is a higher quality oil must be run at 32:1? Just because the bottle says 32:1? I mean come on, the oil wasn't designed around chainsaws. Wouldn't it at least be prudent to test what mix ratio works best in chainsaws?

- Furthermore we have belray saying per email that 32:1 is running too hot + slow in my test...why? Because in his opinion the mix at 32:1 is to heavy and slowing down the piston...thus producing a hotter jug than at 42:1 and yes, slower times by a 5-7 seconds in a 30 second cut.

- Obviously stihl is leaving deposits even at 40:1 after only 12 tanks on that one dude's 661. Randy or the customer posted a picture. So why even bother running stihl ultra?

Why not just run belray or some other higher quality oil than stihl? Belray seems to have a heck of a track record...just run it richer gas mix of maybe 40:1. I don't know what the number would be in a ported saw. But based on my tests and belray agrees...in my stock 661, 32:1 belray is to heavy and somewhere between 42:1 - 50:1 is the "equilibrium".


----------



## Andyshine77

I've read so much on this subject, every tech writeup I could find, other forums and so on. Most any of the modern 2T oils are fine. I've ran quite a few different brands and it really comes down to personal taste. The best oil I ran was Mobile's 2t. Right now it's K2 or R50. But I'm a firewood cutter, not someone that runs a saw everyday. I always recommend Echo Powor blend or Yamalube to the local tree company I do repair work for, mixed at 40:1 

When it comes to the power issue between different ratios, it's all in the tuning IMHO.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I asked Bel-Ray about MC-1 and H1R today because i have both and they suggested 50:1 for MC-1 and 32:1, 42:1, and 50:1 with H1R, but said the best results will be with 42:1.


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

all i can say is stihl ultra now makes me nervous, as does my 2260. i will stick to moto mix until get either some yamalube or honda 2r oil to premix with. going to silver lake sounds fun, but i am sure i would pay for it for a few days following the trip.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> I've read so much on this, every tech writeup I could find, other forums and so on. Most any of the modern 2T oils are fine. I've ran quite a few different brands and it really comes Dow to personal taste. The best oil I've ran was Mobile's 2t. Right now it's K2 or R50. But I'm a firewood cutter. I always recommend Echo Powor blend or Yamalube to the local tree company I do repair work for, mixed at 40:1
> 
> When it comes to the power issue between ratio power differences, it's all in the tuning IMHO.




661 = tunes itself. I gave it plenty of run time to do just that.

Given the vast possible combinations this little computer module is set for. I disagree with the idea that a reset had to be performed.

it has to account for -

- gas octane and quality - from 87 with ethanol to probably 94 with out.
- differences in elevation from sea level to maybe 7000?
- how many various combos - on the quality of air. humidity, temp, pressure so on

bottom line there is a very very wide range of possible conditions it has to account for...so going from 50:1 to 40:1 to 32:1 being the only real change because the weather didn't change, the air didn't change...I just don't see the whole reset idea.


----------



## Marshy

Mastermind said:


> *I'm more of a man now than I ever was. *
> 
> 
> 
> in my dreams


 
I heard that happens to chimps as time goes on... who knew.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I've read so much on this subject, every tech writeup I could find, other forums and so on. Most any of the modern 2T oils are fine. I've ran quite a few different brands and it really comes down to personal taste. The best oil Iran was Mobile's 2t. Right now it's K2 or R50. But I'm a firewood cutter, not someone that runs a saw everyday. I always recommend Echo Powor blend or Yamalube to the local tree company I do repair work for, mixed at 40:1
> 
> When it comes to the power issue between different ratios, it's all in the tuning IMHO.


I am the one that got people to start using mx2t and 2r on this board. Circa 2001 IIRC.
IMO Klotz is a great oil for keep dust down on a gravel road.. I would run H1R before it and I am not fond of it.


----------



## redbull660

Next thing is, I see all these flash point temps - see list here - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

Stihl is at 432 F. I don't quite understand it. But I am hesitant to try any of the oils with lower flash points than stihl. belray is at 395 and the other one close is the castor 927. 

Furthermore it seems to me that we, in general have two different realms to choose from. 

1. the lower flash point, thinner oils
or
2. the higher flash point higher viscosity oils. 

It seems to me you would want to run a heavier mix of say 40:1 or even heavier with the thinner oils. But given the protection of the heavier viscosity oils could run lighter mixes of maybe 45:1? Since oil's main purpose is to lube and gas is to burn. Seems to me one could get more power and the same amount of protection running the heavier oils?

and please keep an open mind here. The likely reality is that we are in uncharted waters. These oils we are discussing are designed around bikes for the most part and aren't run like saws at all.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> ok oil geeks. so it seems...
> 
> - belray doesn't like to burn very easily. Thus you have to increase fuel by I think article said 15%. Mastermind posted it back on page 37 I think.
> 
> - belray is a very heavy viscosity pure ester oil which provides enormous protection.
> 
> - So if it provides so much more protection than other oils. Why couldn't you reduce the amount of oil in the mix from 32:1 to say 40:1?
> 
> - assuming that Stihl ultra is a lessor quality oil than belray. Why is it (generally) accepted that Stihl ultra can be run at 40:1. While Belray which is a higher quality oil must be run at 32:1? Just because the bottle says 32:1? I mean come on, the oil wasn't designed around chainsaws. Wouldn't it at least be prudent to test what mix ratio works best in chainsaws?
> 
> - Furthermore we have belray saying per email that 32:1 is running too hot + slow in my test...why? Because in his opinion the mix at 32:1 is to heavy and slowing down the piston...thus producing a hotter jug than at 42:1 and yes, slower times by a 5-7 seconds in a 30 second cut.
> 
> - Obviously stihl is leaving deposits even at 40:1 after only 12 tanks on that one dude's 661. Randy or the customer posted a picture. So why even bother running stihl ultra?
> 
> Why not just run belray or some other higher quality oil than stihl? Belray seems to have a heck of a track record...just run it richer gas mix of maybe 40:1. I don't know what the number would be in a ported saw. But based on my tests and belray agrees...in my stock 661, 32:1 belray is to heavy and somewhere between 42:1 - 50:1 is the "equilibrium".


Your piston run on Stihl didn't look that bad. Normal really. H1R isn't a super oil and it's technology is straight out of the 70's. IT'S also a mediocre at best oil. Your test is full of variables and the "tech" is jerk in you off. IMO of course..


----------



## Marshy

Flash point and viscosity are not related to eachother, they are mutually independent of eachothers. Higher or lower of one doesnt not directly corrolate to higher or lower of the other. Further more, how do you know what the viscosity of each of the oils is?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Next thing is, I see all these flash point temps - see list here - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417
> 
> Stihl is at 432 F. I don't quite understand it. But I am hesitant to try any of the oils with lower flash points than stihl. belray is at 395 and the other one close is the castor 927.
> 
> Furthermore it seems to me that we, in general have two different realms to choose from.
> 
> 1. the lower flash point, thinner oils
> or
> 2. the higher flash point higher viscosity oils.
> 
> It seems to me you would want to run a heavier mix of say 40:1 or even heavier with the thinner oils. But given the protection of the heavier viscosity oils could run lighter mixes of maybe 45:1? Since oil's main purpose is to lube and gas is to burn. Seems to me one could get more power and the same amount of protection running the heavier oils?
> 
> and please keep an open mind here. The likely reality is that we are in uncharted waters. These oils we are discussing are designed around bikes for the most part and aren't run like saws at all.


Uncharted waters...give me a break..


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Flash point and viscosity are not related to eachother, they are mutually independent of eachothers. Higher or lower of one doe
> 
> 
> Marshy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Flash point and viscosity are not related to eachother, they are mutually independent of eachothers. Higher or lower of one doesnt not directly corrolate to higher or lower of the other. Further more, how do you know what the viscosity of each of the oils is?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> snt not directly corrolate to higher or lower of the other. Further more, how do you know what the viscosity of each of the oils is?
Click to expand...

Exactly! Flashpoint is mostly relevant to shipping and storage regs. A high flash oil doesn't mean the base stock is heavy or has a high endpoint. However flash point can sometimes give you a vague idea what's in a particular oil.


----------



## CR500

Mixed up some Bel-Ray 32:1 the 7900 looked real good after a few tanks time will tell of course lol

I want to try some Motul 800 Road Racing any objections?


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> I'm more of a man now than I ever was.


You're getting senile, Randy!


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> You're getting senile, Randy!



You missed the fine print in my post I see.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> You missed the fine print in my post I see.


No, I just chose to omit it, lol


----------



## blsnelling

BWalker, break it down for us, oil by oil. Andre, I'd like to see your opinions as well. 


Belray H1-R
Motul 800 2T
Amsoil Dominator
Klotz R50
Maxima K2
Silkolene Pro 2
Yamalube 2R
Bailey's Full Synthetic


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well then what should we run? and why? seriously.


I like yamaha 2R in a saw. Would prefer mobil 2r, buts it's no longer available.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> BWalker, break it down for us, oil by oil. Andre, I'd like to see your opinions as well.
> 
> 
> Belray H1-R
> Motul 800 2T
> Amsoil Dominator
> Klotz R50
> Maxima K2
> Silkolene Pro 2
> Yamalube 2R
> Bailey's Full Synthetic


Dominator actually isn't too bad and I detest the Amsoil conpany.. I like 2R and have used it alot. I would try K2 as others I trust like it. NOT SURE ON baileys or silkolene. Would not run r50, h1r or 800.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I like yamaha 2R in a saw. Would prefer mobil 2r, buts it's no longer available.



ok, and the Why? Give us some serious details...we've gone 42 pages on this stupid thread. I want some real answers. no more I think or I feel or it looked like, or it smelled the best blah blah blah. Give us some rock solid reasons why. Please. I'm tired of this dragging on!


----------



## blsnelling

I'll take opinions and gut feelings myself.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> ok, and the Why? Give us some serious details...we've gone 42 pages on this stupid thread. I want some real answers. no more I think or I feel or it looked like, or it smelled the best blah blah blah. Give us some rock solid reasons why. Please. I'm tired of this dragging on!



Oh come on........let's go another 42 pages.


----------



## KG441c

Never take ones opinions as gospel? There are alot of experienced guys here that have seen the insides of alota saws ran and different oils. Id be willing to bet most of the saw failures were due to improper tune rather than lack of lube?


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> Never take ones opinions as gospel? There are alot of experienced guys here that have seen the insides of alota sawa ran and different oils. Id be willing to bet most of the saw failures were due to improper tune rather than lack of lube?



well this bwalker guy has done 140 posts on this thread. ...yeah like 7 full pages of it, is by him. So he seems to have all the answers. So I wanna know!!! 

So once again...and the Why? Give us some serious details...we've gone 42 pages on this stupid thread. I want some real answers. no more I think or I feel or it looked like, or it smelled the best blah blah blah. Give us some rock solid reasons why. Please. I'm tired of this dragging on!


*
I'm starting to think you guys are like a bunch of women who just want to bicker, b*tch, and talk about their FEELINGS. *


----------



## KenJax Tree

Welp....between chain saws, dirt bike and snowmobile i still own and having had a jet ski, ATV, and another snowmobile, i dug out some oil i have. I have MC-1, H1R, K2, 800, R50, Dominator, Saber, Ipone Samurai, 927, BeNOL, and Lucas.[emoji15]


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I am the one that got people to start using mx2t and 2r on this board. Circa 2001 IIRC.
> IMO Klotz is a great oil for keep dust down on a gravel road.. I would run H1R before it and I am not fond of it.



I knew you wouldn't have anything good to say about Klotz R50, but I had really good experience with it. Now Super TechniPlate left a mess inside the top end.

A well used 361 piston that was ran on nothing but R50. Yes some carbon on the crown, I see the same with most every oil. Mobil 1 was the cleanest I've ever seen however. Remember the fuel itself may play a larger role than the oil itself. I just love seeing oil clinging to the piston skirt.


----------



## Mastermind

Yeah........that looks great Andre.


----------



## CR500

Andyshine77 said:


> I know you wouldn't have anything good to say about Klotz R50, but I had really good experience with it. Now Super TechniPlate left a mess inside the top end.
> 
> A well used 361 piston that was ran on nothing but R50. Yes some carbon on the crown, I see the same with most every oil. Mobil 1 was the cleanest I've ever seen however. Remember the fuel itself may play a larger role than the oil itself. I just love seeing oil clinging to the piston skirt.
> 
> View attachment 417764


makes me wanna run more R50 lol


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> well this bwalker guy has done 140 posts on this thread. ...yeah like 7 full pages of it, is by him. So he seems to have all the answers. So I wanna know!!!
> 
> So once again...and the Why? Give us some serious details...we've gone 42 pages on this stupid thread. I want some real answers. no more I think or I feel or it looked like, or it smelled the best blah blah blah. Give us some rock solid reasons why. Please. I'm tired of this dragging on!
> 
> 
> *
> I'm starting to think you guys are like a bunch of women who just want to bicker, b*tch, and talk about their FEELINGS. *


Lmbo!! Simmer down bull!!!


----------



## Mastermind

I'm feeling a little bloated. 

Pass the Midol.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> I know you wouldn't have anything good to say about Klotz R50, but I had really good experience with it. Now Super TechniPlate left a mess inside the top end.
> 
> A well used 361 piston that was ran on nothing but R50. Yes some carbon on the crown, I see the same with most every oil. Mobil 1 was the cleanest I've ever seen however. Remember the fuel itself may play a larger role than the oil itself. I just love seeing oil clinging to the piston skirt.
> 
> View attachment 417764


That lil bit of carbon buildup will help bump compression!!! Lol!! As long as it stays put!!


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I'm feeling a little bloated.
> 
> Pass the Midol.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> well this bwalker guy has done 140 posts on this thread. ...yeah like 7 full pages of it, is by him. So he seems to have all the answers. So I wanna know!!!
> 
> So once again...and the Why? Give us some serious details...we've gone 42 pages on this stupid thread. I want some real answers. no more I think or I feel or it looked like, or it smelled the best blah blah blah. Give us some rock solid reasons why. Please. I'm tired of this dragging on!
> 
> 
> *
> I'm starting to think you guys are like a bunch of women who just want to bicker, b*tch, and talk about their FEELINGS. *



A scientific test in a controlled environment would be required, and that would take serous $$ and people a whole lot smarter than myself. Because this hasn't happened, the oil topic will never end. Use what you want, do your own evaluation and go cut some ****ing wood.


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> That lil bit of carbon buildup will help bump compression!!! Lol!! As long as it stays put!!



It really wasn't buildup, and is completely normal.


----------



## Mastermind

Brad said it pretty well. 

Like him, I'll be running 32:1 in all my stuff. 

If it leaves a little power untapped, that's ok with me. 



Andyshine77 said:


> It really wasn't buildup, and is completely normal.



Yes it is. 

Looks damn good.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Would not run r50, h1r or 800.



Why?


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> It really wasn't buildup, and is completely normal.


Does ash or soot type depoists harden?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Does ash or soot type depoists hearden?



Not really sure what you're asking? Yes carbon is hard. Soot and ash, I've seen it hard, sticky and soft.


----------



## Trx250r180

Guy from a tree service company just left here ,his truck bed was full of silver stihl bottles ...........


----------



## CR500

Trx250r180 said:


> Guy from a tree service company just left here ,his truck bed was full of silver stihl bottles ...........


his saws are sooooooooooo screwed lol


kidding I used to run Ultra like most people on here there was a time when a majority of people only ran Stihl HP Ultra,

Nothing wrong with it really


----------



## Andyshine77

Trx250r180 said:


> Guy from a tree service company just left here ,his truck bed was full of silver stihl bottles ...........



That's odd, they actually use oil. How about air filters? I hear a saw will gain a few rpm's without an air filter.


----------



## CR500

Andyshine77 said:


> That's odd, they actually use oil. How about air filters? I hear a saw will gain a few rpm's without an air filter.
> 
> View attachment 417776


ever see a farmer maintain a saw? lol


More than a few are caked with dust and the occasional strands of hay.... gotta love round bales lol


----------



## redbull660

well screw this - i'm gonna run a test...as soon as I can. 

ported 661 vs my muff modded 661. 36" .404 new RS chains. 

we'll do 32:1 42:1 and 50:1. H1R. 

3-4 cuts, temp reading after ea cut. Timed. 

Combo of steadiest & coolest temps & best times, wins! Should be interesting to see what works best in a ported saw vs stock saw.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> well screw this - i'm gonna run a test...as soon as I can.
> 
> ported 661 vs my muff modded 661. 36" .404 new RS chains.
> 
> we'll do 32:1 42:1 and 50:1. H1R.
> 
> 3-4 cuts, temp reading after ea cut. Timed.
> 
> Combo of steadiest & coolest temps & best times, wins! Should be interesting to see what works best in a ported saw vs stock saw.


Redbull straight heads up!!! Yamalube 2r vs H1R!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Dominator actually isn't too bad and I detest the Amsoil conpany.. I like 2R and have used it alot. I would try K2 as others I trust like it. NOT SURE ON baileys or silkolene. Would not run r50, h1r or 800.


I've heard of rust forming using Dominator because it doesn't have rust protection. The ester based oils at least list it on the bottle whether its in there or not IDK.


----------



## KG441c

OIL!!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

This Yamalube has me intrigued[emoji52]


----------



## cuttinties

This thread is like sore deek.......can't beat it.


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> This Yamalube has my intrigued[emoji52]




by the numbers it doesn't appear to be anything special. *http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417*

honestly the only thing that looks like it most closely mimics the #s of Stihl ultra is H1R. I also looked at specific gravity #s. There really isn't much to go on. But based on what there is. H1R most closely mimics stihl.

and clearly some of these are just hell and gone from anywhere to even close to stihl #s. as in it seems probable that some of them shouldn't even be used in a chainsaw!


----------



## PhilMcWoody

CR500 said:


> ever see a farmer maintain a saw? lol
> 
> 
> More than a few are caked with dust and the occasional strands of hay.... gotta love round bales lol



Could be time for Farmer Steve, Homelitenut and Sagetown to chip in (or confess) here


----------



## blsnelling

How do you know lowest temp is best? If the oil combusts better, wouldn't that create more heat? Doesn't heat = energy? I'm just playing devil's advocate and throwing these out there off the top of my head. We don't even know if what we're testing for here really means what we think it does. Bigger, higher, lower, etc isn't always better.


----------



## huskihl

Andyshine77 said:


> That's odd, they actually use oil. How about air filters? I hear a saw will gain a few rpm's without an air filter.
> 
> View attachment 417776


----------



## Mastermind

Chain.......

It's really all about the chain. 

Trooph.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Chains need oil too....what kind is best?


----------



## Mastermind

KenJax Tree said:


> Chains need oil too....what kind is best?


----------



## huskihl

redbull660 said:


> I said..
> "Combo of steadiest & coolest temps & best times, wins!" Combo is the keyword. ie. the best combo of all 3. ie. if it's cool and slow than that's probably not the best combo of all 3.


What Brad's saying is how do you know if hotter isn't a good thing. Our vehicles have thermostats in them to keep heat in the engine. And obviously to let it out once the desired temp has been reached. Maybe 250° is better than 220. We don't know the upper limit where added heat is no longer desirable.


----------



## Trx250r180

huskihl said:


> What Brad's saying is how do you know if hotter isn't a good thing. Our vehicles have thermostats in them to keep heat in the engine. And obviously to let it out once the desired temp has been reached. Maybe 250° is better than 220. We don't know the upper limit where added heat is no longer desirable.



I think that is why he is doing these tests sir ,to see where the happy spot is .


----------



## huskihl

Trx250r180 said:


> I think that is why he is doing these tests sir ,to see where the happy spot is .


Yep. I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that heat within reason might be a good thing. If one oil proves to be better for all other reasons, but it runs 20° hotter, that may still be 50 or 150° ???below that temp which is required for damage. I'm not for or against any of these oils. Just saying that I wouldn't necessarily eliminate one oil simply because of added heat, if that temp was never going to lead to damage.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> by the numbers it doesn't appear to be anything special. *http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417*
> honestly the only thing that looks like it most closely mimics the #s of Stihl ultra is H1R. I also looked at specific gravity #s. There really isn't much to go on. But based on what there is. H1R most closely mimics stihl.
> 
> and clearly some of these are just hell and gone from anywhere to even close to stihl #s. as in it seems probable that some of them shouldn't even be used in a chainsaw!


And what do those numbers tell you?


----------



## Stihlman441

Mastermind said:


> I'm feeling a little bloated.
> 
> Pass the Midol.



I have using the Mobil 1 T2 for years and have never had an issue but it's getting harder to find and more and more expensive.
I think my next oil will be the Jakmax fully synthetic ( I think it's the same thing Woodland and Baiyles full synthetic ) it's half the price Matt MCW has been using it forever and has no complains.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It really wasn't buildup, and is completely normal.


Yes, it looked pretty good.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I've heard of rust forming using Dominator because it doesn't have rust protection. The ester based oils at least list it on the bottle whether its in there or not IDK.


I have not heard that nor saw it. Although it's not surprising if true given its a ester oil IIRC..


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE

KenJax Tree said:


> This Yamalube has me intrigued[emoji52]


 just dont get it mixed up with your supply of....................RAMALUBE


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> well screw this - i'm gonna run a test...as soon as I can.
> 
> ported 661 vs my muff modded 661. 36" .404 new RS chains.
> 
> we'll do 32:1 42:1 and 50:1. H1R.
> 
> 3-4 cuts, temp reading after ea cut. Timed.
> 
> Combo of steadiest & coolest temps & best times, wins! Should be interesting to see what works best in a ported saw vs stock saw.


Hows about throwing up some pics of both muffler exits ?

IIRC, a member here had to make about 20 cuts for a different tank of fuel to get comfy on an autotune saw. I agree that humidity/elevation/fuel quality/temperature/gravitational pull from the moon/solar flares/etc ..... all play a role in autotune saws responses, and that if they didn't respond rather quickly that we would be seeing more failures when those variables changed ............. but I tend to put a large amount of trust in what mdavlee says, and a few pages back he was very clear, besides - what would it hurt to do the reset when switching the different mixes ?

May I also be upfront and suggest a way of trying to eliminate the movement of whatever it is that you are cutting ?
That one cut that I referenced a few pages back had the 661 4 stroking for nearly 75% of the cut, which couldn't have been a good thing when timing cuts.

I don't care what anyone else posts, I like watching your videos, and enjoy reading your tests and their results. I also compare how my 661 runs with a 36" .404 to yours .......... and enjoy that too !! I cant help but make one last suggestion .............. make your muffler openings a little larger. That seems to be one of the 2 major differences between your 661 and mine, the other being fuel (I run VP SEF). These 90cc saws like to breathe from one large opening (in my opinion) and Stihl got the location of that opening in the right spot !


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> How do you know lowest temp is best? If the oil combusts better, wouldn't that create more heat? Doesn't heat = energy? I'm just playing devil's advocate and throwing these out there off the top of my head. We don't even know if what we're testing for here really means what we think it does. Bigger, higher, lower, etc isn't always better.


Correlating cylinder temp with piston temp might be problematic. And it's piston temp that is the limiting factor in a two stroke.


----------



## bwalker

http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm


----------



## redbull660

Moparmyway said:


> Hows about throwing up some pics of both muffler exits ?
> 
> IIRC, a member here had to make about 20 cuts for a different tank of fuel to get comfy on an autotune saw. I agree that humidity/elevation/fuel quality/temperature/gravitational pull from the moon/solar flares/etc ..... all play a role in autotune saws responses, and that if they didn't respond rather quickly that we would be seeing more failures when those variables changed ............. but I tend to put a large amount of trust in what mdavlee says, and a few pages back he was very clear, besides - what would it hurt to do the reset when switching the different mixes ?
> 
> May I also be upfront and suggest a way of trying to eliminate the movement of whatever it is that you are cutting ?
> That one cut that I referenced a few pages back had the 661 4 stroking for nearly 75% of the cut, which couldn't have been a good thing when timing cuts.
> 
> I don't care what anyone else posts, I like watching your videos, and enjoy reading your tests and their results. I also compare how my 661 runs with a 36" .404 to yours .......... and enjoy that too !! I cant help but make one last suggestion .............. make your muffler openings a little larger. That seems to be one of the 2 major differences between your 661 and mine, the other being fuel (I run VP SEF). These 90cc saws like to breathe from one large opening (in my opinion) and Stihl got the location of that opening in the right spot !




661 reset - I'll look into it. If it's not a big deal i'll do it. 

movement - that was on one log on one cut in the 404 v 3/8. The logs in the oil test obviously didn't move.

muff opening - Yeah where the exit port is on the 661 and 660 muffler for that matter are clearly the shortest route.





bwalker said:


> And what do those numbers tell you?



bwalker - I've already answered this and If I answer it again your just going to try and pick at my reasons. You seem to have all the answers. So instead of being a basher & critic, please enlighten us all. Opinion's are like azzholes. Everyone has one. So if your so smart and know so much, give us the answers and back it up! Why why why with solid data and reasons. I mean you've obviously have the time to spend posting on this thread nearly 150 times, so don't tell us it'll take to long or you don't have the time.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> 661 reset - I'll look into it. If it's not a big deal i'll do it.


Reset is easy;
1- Start on full choke and run for 90 seconds, move lever immediately to off
2- Start on fast idle and run for 90 seconds, move lever immediately to off
3- Start saw and make 5 uniform cuts - done


redbull660 said:


> movement - that was on one log on one cut in the 404 v 3/8. The logs in the oil test obviously didn't move.


 My bad; my old age and your multiple in depth (and great) threads have confused me again



redbull660 said:


> muff opening - Yeah where the exit port is on the 661 and 660 muffler for that matter are clearly the shortest route.


 ....... Uumm; I believe it is actually the longest (the way the exhaust gasses move). Those gasses are coming out at a very fast speed and probably smack directely into the front cover first. At full throttle, I doubt they are able to come out of the exhaust port and make a 90 degree turn to get out of the muffler ............ instead they leave the exhaust port, smack the front cover (look at where the discoloration is) and run around the outside edges of the muffler can until they are shoved out the opening (on a single opening muffler with the opening in the stock location). I have found that 1 larger single opening in the stock location makes a more powerfull saw than a dual or triple ported muffler (just my opinion, and I would be willing to lend you my muffler (661 or 066/660) to have you test this theory - my own testing brought me to this dumb conclusion)


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Dominator actually isn't too bad and I detest the Amsoil conpany.. I like 2R and have used it alot. I would try K2 as others I trust like it. NOT SURE ON baileys or silkolene. Would not run r50, h1r or 800.



Please more of a break down, this IS the time to be long winded. You have a very strong opinion on this topic, and I believe a lot of people would like to hear why and how you've made your decisions.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm just concerned that several assumptions are being made that have no scientific backup and are possibly wrong. We do not know that a few degrees cooler is better. And, we do not know that the fastest cut time is best. The tech already told us that a thicker oil film will not only protect better, but will also be slower. The trick is to find that balance that suits your needs. Quite frankly, no one here has the knowledge, resources, or ability to test that. While I find this discussion very entertaining, I will still continue to recommend 32:1, no less than 40:1. Please don't let this stop you from testing, I find it interesting. I just caution everyone from jumping to conclusions that very well may not be true.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Please more of a break down, this IS the time to be long winded. You have a very strong opinion on this topic, and I believe a lot of people would like to hear why and how you've made your decisions.


I will when I have the time.


----------



## bwalker

Brad, they do not staff tech lines with engineers or perro chemists. I believe his comment in regards to more oil causing more resistance is false for several reasons. One of which is that fact that the piston to cylinder clearance only allows so much oil into the area between the piston and cylinder. What running more oil does is give you reserve to replenish this oil when it is suddenly depleted. If you do a Google search there is a article on the net done by Maxima that discusses oil migration times for a two cycle. This is a good read and applicable here.


----------



## redbull660

Moparmyway said:


> Reset is easy;
> 1- Start on full choke and run for 90 seconds, move lever immediately to off
> 2- Start on fast idle and run for 90 seconds, move lever immediately to off
> 3- Start saw and make 5 uniform cuts - done
> My bad; my old age and your multiple in depth (and great) threads have confused me again
> 
> ....... Uumm; I believe it is actually the longest (the way the exhaust gasses move). Those gasses are coming out at a very fast speed and probably smack directely into the front cover first. At full throttle, I doubt they are able to come out of the exhaust port and make a 90 degree turn to get out of the muffler ............ instead they leave the exhaust port, smack the front cover (look at where the discoloration is) and run around the outside edges of the muffler can until they are shoved out the opening (on a single opening muffler with the opening in the stock location). I have found that 1 larger single opening in the stock location makes a more powerfull saw than a dual or triple ported muffler (just my opinion, and I would be willing to lend you my muffler (661 or 066/660) to have you test this theory - my own testing brought me to this dumb conclusion)




reset - heard a few different ways. I'll ck with a buddy of mine to confirm. he's an elite stihl dealer so i'll give him the final word. But that seems easy enough. I'd probably do more than 5 cuts though like I did in the oil test I already did...just to be sure, before changing to a new chain and doing the test cut.

muff - I guess I meant relative to the opposite side of the muffler...ie if there was a hole/exit port over there. You may well be right and I may take you up on that offer. I have several combos I'd like to try...even made a DP cover lol hole is 5/8ths. *See attached files*






blsnelling said:


> I'm just concerned that several assumptions are being made that have no scientific backup and are possibly wrong. We do not know that a few degrees cooler is better. And, we do not know that the fastest cut time is best. The tech already told us that a thicker oil film will not only protect better, but will also be slower. The trick is to find that balance that suits your needs. Quite frankly, no one here has the knowledge, resources, or ability to test that. While I find this discussion very entertaining, I will still continue to recommend 32:1, no less than 40:1. Please don't let this stop you from testing, I find it interesting. I just caution everyone from jumping to conclusions that very well may not be true.



well based on that logic. The best combo would clearly be somewhere between 42:1 and 50:1. Both of those are cool, steady, and fast. 32:1 is more erratic, hotter, and way the hell slower. Which is why i'm doing this again cuz I want more readings. And I want to know what a ported saw does. And I admit I'm a little curious to eliminate any possible doubt I'd have with the reset...that is correct redbull doesn't care if he's wrong. 

I don't want to hear about scientific. Somewhere earlier in this thread you guys were all about coolest being the best and coolest would mean less friction and wear and faster times on and on and on, and that 32:1 would produce exactly that! Well it didn't. Now it's all like we don't know what's best blah blah blah.

Bottom line - I'm going to do the test, post the results and you guys can do what you want.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> I will when I have the time.


Thanks. Please if you could before this thread ends, would be much appreciated.


----------



## KenJax Tree

In the end what is all this gonna mean?


----------



## redbull660

gonna find the best mix ratios for Belray H1R, that produce the best combination of steadiest temps, jug temp, and time/speed. From...

muff modded 661
muff modded 660
&
ported 661

I'd test another oil against belray after this. But no one has given me any good reason why. I'm not making up a bunch of .404 chains (ie. spending the money to procure them, time to make them), spending the time to prep the wood, time to find the big goonies/ wood, time to do all the anal-ness of doing the test so it's consistent/apples to apples, time to edit the vids. Just because some dude has posted on this thread 150 times in the last couple of days criticizing anyone's opinion which doesn't agree with his own. ..who offers no evidence at all...let alone any solid evidence or even solid logic....who really adds no constructiveness to his thread at all.

Yes I'm assuming the prime candidate for testing would be yamalube 2r.


----------



## blsnelling

blsnelling said:


> Belray H1-R
> Motul 800 2T
> Amsoil Dominator
> Klotz R50
> Maxima K2
> Silkolene Pro 2
> Yamalube 2R
> Bailey's Full Synthetic


Here, test these 

Speaking of which, is there a list of the flash points and viscosities of most of these oils compiled anywhere?


----------



## mdavlee




----------



## KenJax Tree

Test the $30 a gallon Lucas i use and see if these other oils are really worth 2x the money.


----------



## mdavlee




----------



## mdavlee




----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> *I'm just concerned that several assumptions are being made that have no scientific backup and are possibly wrong. * We do not know that a few degrees cooler is better. And, we do not know that the fastest cut time is best. The tech already told us that a thicker oil film will not only protect better, but will also be slower. The trick is to find that balance that suits your needs. Quite frankly, no one here has the knowledge, resources, or ability to test that. While I find this discussion very entertaining, I will still continue to recommend 32:1, no less than 40:1. Please don't let this stop you from testing, I find it interesting. I just caution everyone from jumping to conclusions that very well may not be true.



That has been my concern as well. 

Absolutely not a dig at Redbull......

None of us can do any better on the testing. 

But........over the years I've been messing with two stroke engines more oil (within reason) has always been the accepted "good idea".

Finding that 32:1 is slower on one M-Tronic saw, in the hands of one user, will not make me change the ratio I use. BUT.......it very well might get a lot of other people to change. That is not a good idea in my opinion. 

On my bench, over hundreds and hundreds of saws........I've seen for myself the differences between oil ratios. 

At 50:1 the engine is dry and sooty. No residual oil is left in the case, on the crank, bearing, skirts, etc. 

At 32:1 the oil is everywhere. 

I will continue to be open minded........and I have decided to try Yamalube. But, I will not change ratios.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> Brad - I actually would. If there was wood all setup to do it. the ideal stuff would probably be 6x6 lumber banded together. Could be the great AS Oil GTG! heh


I'd rather see the test in real world conditions. Who really cuts 6x6 pine cants banded together.


----------



## Husqavarna Guy

KenJax Tree said:


> Welp....between chain saws, dirt bike and snowmobile i still own and having had a jet ski, ATV, and another snowmobile, i dug out some oil i have. I have MC-1, H1R, K2, 800, R50, Dominator, Saber, Ipone Samurai, 927, BeNOL, and Lucas.[emoji15]



How do you like the Lucas compared to those oils that are twice the price? I bet it's just as good.


----------



## redbull660

Mastermind said:


> That has been my concern as well.
> 
> Absolutely not a dig at Redbull......
> 
> None of us can do any better on the testing.
> 
> But........over the years I've been messing with two stroke engines more oil (within reason) has always been the accepted "good idea".
> 
> Finding that 32:1 is slower on one M-Tronic saw, in the hands of one user, will not make me change the ratio I use. BUT.......it very well might get a lot of other people to change. That is not a good idea in my opinion.
> 
> On my bench, over hundreds and hundreds of saws........I've seen for myself the differences between oil ratios.
> 
> At 50:1 the engine is dry and sooty. No residual oil is left in the case, on the crank, bearing, skirts, etc.
> 
> At 32:1 the oil is everywhere.
> 
> I will continue to be open minded........and I have decided to try Yamalube. But, I will not change ratios.




- it would seem to me that one would want a 32:1 ratio with a thinner oil which a lower flash point. I would bet, you'll like the yamalube 2r at 32:1 vs belray at 32:1

- given the viscosity, resistance to burning, and quality of belray, I would think you would need less belray to accomplish the same lube effect.


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> - it would seem to me that one would want a 32:1 ratio with a thinner oil which a lower flash point. I would bet, you'll like the yamalube 2r at 32:1 vs belray at 32:1
> 
> - given the viscosity, resistance to burning, and quality of belray, *I would think you would need less belray to accomplish the same lube effect*.



Maybe.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> - it would seem to me that one would want a 32:1 ratio with a thinner oil which a lower flash point. I would bet, you'll like the yamalube 2r at 32:1 vs belray at 32:1
> 
> - given the viscosity, resistance to burning, and quality of belray, I would think you would need less belray to accomplish the same lube effect.


From the reading I'm doing, that sounds correct.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> if you were doing a test that big with that many different oils. using the 6x6 is probably the best way to keep things equal. Unless someone could secure a redwood that was consistent for about i dunno 100 feet ? lol Well lets see here...
> 
> 
> 8 different oils testing 3 different ratios each at 2-3 cuts for each ratio. That's uhh 48-72 test cuts! lol
> 
> figure 1" per cut so 72" + extra wood to hold on to. I dunno a nice 10' foot section of something ~32" across for the entire 10' feet with out knots. That would be tough.


Understandable, but the results will be meaningless unless you're cutting in a 6x6 cant. Once you walk away from the cant all results go out the window.


----------



## redbull660

Mastermind said:


> Maybe.




If that turns out to be the case. Speculation at this point but ... say you can get the same times, steady temps, and cool temps from say yamalube 2r @ 32:1 and belray h1r @ 40:1.

Then I would think it would come down to a question of, which one of those two combos, protects the internals saw the best. 

And I would think that would be your winner.


----------



## Trx250r180

Isn't gas cooler than oil ?


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> If that is the case... say you can get the same times, steady temps, and cool temps from say yamalube 2r @ 32:1 and belray h1r @ 40:1.
> 
> Then I would think it would come down to a question of, which one of those two combos, protects the internals saw the best. And there is your winner.


That sounds right to me. In that case, I'd default to the ester based synthetic for the higher film strength, higher viscosity, and higher flashpoint.


----------



## blsnelling

It appears to me that high flash point goes with high viscosity. The highest numbers go to R50. Next is Motul 800 Road Racing, then Motul 800 Off Road, then H1-R.

I'm wondering if there would be much difference in the cleanliness of the two Motul oils, with perhaps the Off Road having stronger detergents to keep power valves clean. Does that even matter? I'm thinking Motul 800 2T Road Racing might be my next oil to try.

Edit: I just bought a liter.


----------



## sunfish

Damn, 45 pages! Cool...


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> I'm thinking Motul 800 2T Road Racing might be my next oil to try.
> 
> Edit: I just bought a liter.


Motul 800 is good stuff
IMHO, so is R50
So is H1R, except the H1R wont allow fixed jet carbs to run correctly and my 066 needs a bigger jet to run right


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> That sounds right to me. In that case, I'd default to the ester based synthetic for the higher film strength, higher viscosity, and higher flashpoint.


Brad your assuming that the properties you mentioned indicate an oil is superior. That's not.necessarily so and I will say that there are very few oils meeting the very stringent ISO-EG test that are ester based. The film strength of two stroke Oil hasn't been an issue in years and more film strength isn't necessarily a good thing.
Yamalube 2R for instance is a PIB mineral blend that has an excellant track record over many years in a variety of applications including highly loaded, high.rpm motors like shifter karts, road race bikes and kt-100 air cooled karts.


----------



## blsnelling

I hear you.


----------



## Mastermind




----------



## blsnelling

I'm considering those "near catastrophic" events where only the absolute best oil would protect. Would that not be an ester based oil? I'm not talking everyday use where there are no special demands.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> It appears to me that high flash point goes with high viscosity. The highest numbers go to R50. Next is Motul 800 Road Racing, then Motul 800 Off Road, then H1-R.
> 
> I'm wondering if there would be much difference in the cleanliness of the two Motul oils, with perhaps the Off Road having stronger detergents to keep power valves clean. Does that even matter? I'm thinking Motul 800 2T Road Racing might be my next oil to try.
> 
> Edit: I just bought a liter.


IIRC the two 800's are nearly if not identical.
Chosing an oil based on flash point is really flawed. Flash point only measures the min temp that the lowest boiling point component ignites. Oils that are blended have components that have flash points much higher than that of the blend. Make sense?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I'm considering those "near catastrophic" events where only the absolute best oil would protect. Would that not be an ester based oil? I'm not talking everyday use where there are no special demands.


Castor or castor blend.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Castor or castor blend.


Which is why I run 927 in my piped saw. And ester oils are the next best protector behind castor.


----------



## farmer steve

Mastermind said:


>


which one of the members that posted in this thread are you referring to?  couldn't be me .this is my first post and i stihl run 49 1/2 :1.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Which is why I run 927 in my piped saw. And ester oils are the next best protector behind castor.


A piped saw isn't really highly loaded.
I think it's more like castor has the highest flame temp followed by everything else.. and not all esters are great. Redline for example sucks in a variety of ways.


----------



## CR500

blsnelling said:


> It appears to me that high flash point goes with high viscosity. The highest numbers go to R50. Next is Motul 800 Road Racing, then Motul 800 Off Road, then H1-R.
> 
> I'm wondering if there would be much difference in the cleanliness of the two Motul oils, with perhaps the Off Road having stronger detergents to keep power valves clean. Does that even matter? I'm thinking Motul 800 2T Road Racing might be my next oil to try.
> 
> Edit: I just bought a liter.


You wanna compare findings.... I have both as of today 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


>


 Me too!!!!


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


>


Shoot Ronnie a PM Randy! He has a guy that works with him in EPA/DEQ that was an engineer for one of the big oil companies. He can tell u the most important things to look for


----------



## sunfish




----------



## KenJax Tree

sunfish said:


>


Now why would you use an oil that fits the application?


----------



## Mastermind

How does Lucas smell? 

That is very important to me.


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> How does Lucas smell?
> 
> That is very important to me.


I think Brush Ape used to run Lucas ,He gave it a good review . Only if they did not ban him ,he could chime in on this ,the guy has a lot of saw r&d under his utility belt .


----------



## redbull660

Bigger is better! $20 American dollas shipped!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> How does Lucas smell?
> 
> That is very important to me.



It doesn't really have a smell.


----------



## Mastermind

Perfect.


----------



## KG441c

Lucas is only 9.99 a quart and I think 29$ a gallon on Amazon


----------



## KenJax Tree

O'Reilly's has it for the same price, but they don't carry the gallon jugs in the store but can have it in 1 day.


----------



## KG441c

If I ran alot of oil myself in a business the Lucas would make alota sense! U can get the Yamalube 2r for 11.16 qt if you buy 6


----------



## redbull660




----------



## KenJax Tree

The price is cheap but its damn good oil.


----------



## Mastermind

I'll try Lucas next.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> I'll try Lucas next.


I tried it when Mike Lee mentioned how well the inside of Matt's (Hedgerow) 7900 was coated with oil.


----------



## porsche965

KenJax Tree said:


> I tried it when Mike Lee mentioned how well the inside of Matt's (Hedgerow) 7900 was coated with oil.



At what ratio?


----------



## KenJax Tree

porsche965 said:


> At what ratio?


Not sure but i use it at 32:1 and its clean, the inside on my mufflers are damp with oil. No smoke and almost no smell.


----------



## porsche965

Thanks. One more question, I wonder how much of Lucas is actual synthetic? Has anyone ever called Lucas?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> If I ran alot of oil myself in a business the Lucas would make alota sense! U can get the Yamalube 2r for 11.16 qt if you buy 6


I buy it for 8.99.a qt.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> If I ran alot of oil myself in a business the Lucas would make alota sense! U can get the Yamalube 2r for 11.16 qt if you buy 6


I buy it for 8.99.a qt.


KenJax Tree said:


> I tried it when Mike Lee mentioned how well the inside of Matt's (Hedgerow) 7900 was coated with oil.


A muffler coated with oil indicates poor tuning, shitty oil or both..


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


>



Your pic was broke on my thread but it works on the reply


----------



## KG441c

Where?


bwalker said:


> I buy it for 8.99.a qt.


----------



## KenJax Tree

porsche965 said:


> Thanks. One more question, I wonder how much of Lucas is actual synthetic? Has anyone ever called Lucas?


I heard it was 30% synthetic but i never looked checked into it.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Where?


Local dealer.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I heard it was 30% synthetic but i never looked checked into it.


If it's good does it matter?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> some interesting reading...
> 
> http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/863152-what-do-you-look-for-in-a-good-2t-oil/


What Dirty mutt is saying is sound advice and sounds like some one posting on this thread...wonder who?


----------



## Eccentric

bwalker said:


> I buy it for 8.99.a qt.
> 
> A muffler coated with oil indicates poor tuning, shitty oil or both..



I sincerely doubt that Mike was referring to the muffler.


----------



## bwalker

Eccentric said:


> I sincerely doubt that Mike was referring to the muffler.


Gotcha. Second look says your probably right.
How much residual oil that is left is largely a result of ratio. Another reason 32:1 is a good thing.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I buy it for 8.99.a qt.
> 
> A muffler coated with oil indicates poor tuning, shitty oil or both..


Inside as in piston, crank, bearing etc.


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> I buy it for 8.99.a qt.
> 
> A muffler coated with oil indicates poor tuning, shitty oil or both..


Motor....
Not muffler...
40:1 Lucas... FTW...




And cause it's cheap...


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I buy it for 8.99.a qt.
> 
> A muffler coated with oil indicates poor tuning, shitty oil or both..


Skirt and underside of piston had a nice film on it. Muffler wasn't wet.


----------



## Hedgerow

40:1 for work...
25:1 for play...


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Skirt and underside of piston had a nice film on it. Muffler wasn't wet.


Sounds good. I wouldn't get hung up over it night being a "full synthetic". Many of the blends are just as good if not better than there full synthetic counter parts .


----------



## Hedgerow

I hear it works well on Kazakhstani prostitutes too...

Word of mouth of course...


----------



## sunfish

Mastermind said:


> How does Lucas smell?
> 
> That is very important to me.


No smell I can tell.


----------



## Hedgerow

sunfish said:


> No smell I can tell.


At least nothing you can tell over and above the Kazakhstani prostitute...


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> At least nothing you can tell over and above the Kazakhstani prostitute...


[emoji247][emoji248]


----------



## sunfish

Hedgerow said:


> At least nothing you can tell over and above the Kazakhstani prostitute...


That's a very interesting thought my friend. I have nothing for that...


----------



## Hedgerow

sunfish said:


> That's a very interesting thought my friend. I have nothing for that...


I have stumped the sunfish...
Warm rain Don...
Catfish are feeding...


----------



## sunfish

Hedgerow said:


> I have stumped the sunfish...
> Warm rain Don...
> Catfish are feeding...


Matt, we caught bluegill, bass & crappie yesterday. Smellin fishy round here.


----------



## bwalker

Pictured are the mufflers of a Husky 562, a Redman 8000 blower and a 09 Yamaha Yz-250. All ran at 32:1 on Yamalube 2R.
He saw has had a little over 5 gallons run through it, the red max has burned up gallons of 2R and the yz has been on 2r for 42 hours.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Matt the smelt are running up here[emoji106] gonna go fill a few 5 gallon buckets this weekend.


----------



## CR888

bwalker said:


> Sounds good. I wouldn't get hung up over it night being a "full synthetic". Many of the blends are just as good if not better than there full synthetic counter parts .


Your notta loada say mean stuff to full synthetic oil around here, people have invested too much money running it too be told they have wasted thier hard earned on silly oil. At $30+ per litre many have convinced themselves they are doing whats best. l mean its gotta be better at three times the price, right? lts a mentality rather than a decision based on facts in front of them and that itself is challenging to change.


----------



## CR500

Man I wish saws had removable heads.... think of how we could study oils then? Lol


I need more saws go justify all of this oil I have. Maxima, Bel-Ray, Klotz and Motul are on my shelf. Atleast I can never say"I need oil." Lol

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## bwalker

I have never seen $30 a liter oil and some synthetics are good.


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Matt the smelt are running up here[emoji106] gonna go fill a few 5 gallon buckets this weekend.


If you're going to genius fest in August, you gotta save me a bucket of those!!!

I miss smelt!!!


----------



## Hedgerow

Hell, even a big zip lock bag!!!


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Brad your assuming that the properties you mentioned indicate an oil is superior. That's not.necessarily so and I will say that there are very few oils meeting the very stringent ISO-EG test that are ester based. The film strength of two stroke Oil hasn't been an issue in years and more film strength isn't necessarily a good thing.
> Yamalube 2R for instance is a PIB mineral blend that has an excellant track record over many years in a variety of applications including highly loaded, high.rpm motors like shifter karts, road race bikes and kt-100 air cooled karts.



Well I've read the opposite in some applications.

Take into consideration a tech with Legend posted these results. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...DF3QVJLeDRrbExmSGhsc1FlWFdueHc&hl=en_US#gid=0


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> Hell, even a big zip lock bag!!!


Lol i was gonna say a couple bags is gonna have to work, i can't freeze the whole bucket[emoji1]


----------



## Andyshine77

I've also come to the conclusion most who are posting in this thread, don't really know what they're talking about. Why do I say this? because the debate has continued in circles, with a few guys saying this sucks or this is fact, than latter has nothing to back up what they said. I know what I know, I've had my personal stock saws out cut ported saws ran with different fuel mixes. Sorry until I feel well enough to do a little saw work, I'll find out what's what, even though I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> I've also come to the conclusion most who are posting in this thread, don't really know what they're talking about. Why do I say this? because the debate has continued in circles, with a few guys saying this sucks or this is fact, than latter has nothing to back up what they said. I know what I know, I've had my personal stock saws out cut ported saws ran with different fuel mixes. Sorry until I feel well enough to do a little saw work, I'll find out what's what, even though I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.


Lets bypass the test for now!! Lol!! Which oil and ratio and why?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've made it clear i don't know chit about this oil stuff[emoji2]


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Lets bypass the test for now!! Lol!! Which oil and ratio and why?



32:1 

Why? Because it's my equipment and that's what I want to run.


----------



## Hedgerow

Andyshine77 said:


> I've also come to the conclusion most who are posting in this thread, don't really know what they're talking about. Why do I say this? because the debate has continued in circles, with a few guys saying this sucks or this is fact, than latter has nothing to back up what they said. I know what I know, I've had my personal stock saws out cut ported saws ran with different fuel mixes. Sorry until I feel well enough to do a little saw work, I'll find out what's what, even though I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.


Yeah...
But you are a mad professor...
And should be in a straight jacket to protect yourself and others..


----------



## Andyshine77

Hedgerow said:


> Yeah...
> But you are a mad professor...
> And should be in a straight jacket to protect yourself and others..



The mad part is correct, not sure about the professor part.


----------



## huskihl

Hedgerow said:


> Yeah...
> But you are a mad professor...
> And should be in a straight jacket to protect yourself and others..


If you guys can get him in a straight jacket I can go get my slice of cake back. Chop chop


----------



## CR888

Andyshine77 said:


> I've also come to the conclusion most who are posting in this thread, don't really know what they're talking about. Why do I say this? because the debate has continued in circles, with a few guys saying this sucks or this is fact, than latter has nothing to back up what they said. I know what I know, I've had my personal stock saws out cut ported saws ran with different fuel mixes. Sorry until I feel well enough to do a little saw work, I'll find out what's what, even though I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.



Andy if you came here for any conclusions to anything oil related l think you had wasted hope. Its ok your saws are fine and many others will continue to run far longer than this thread no matter what brand of oil one chooses. An oil thread was a designed platform for one to display his ego, rather than prevent blow by or any other effect with in a two cycle. The winner in this thread goes to the company that markets its oil the best.


----------



## KG441c

CR888 said:


> Andy if you came here for any conclusions to anything oil related l think you had wasted hope. Its ok your saws are fine and many others will continue to run far longer than this thread no matter what brand of oil one chooses. An oil thread was a designed platform for one to display his ego, rather than prevent blow by or any other effect with in a two cycle. The winner in this thread goes to the company that markets its oil the best.


Ill take Brad, Andre, Randy, and MDavLees advice. BWalker seems to know a huge amont of information. They all agree on 32to1? Alota this information has been opinionated but I still havent seen any information that would change my mind from using ester oils like H1R,800t,k2. Ive ran Lucas and r50 also and like them . Personally i think Mdavlee probably runs more oils than anyone I have heard of and testing alota fuels, chains, oils and posted videos and alota pics. He has seen alot of these oils milling and posted pics and Ive ask him alota questions about different oils and if a ported work saw could be blown up or a oil would show bad inside a saw , Mdavlee Im sure could tell u. Andre has studied oil more than any of us probably and Brad in the past recommended I PM Andre if I had any questions about oils and that he was full of knowledge on the subject. I think we r trying to get past the marketing hype? Randy sees the inside of alota saws and what oils r doin and I think all these guys opinions r valuable


----------



## KG441c

CR888 said:


> Andy if you came here for any conclusions to anything oil related l think you had wasted hope. Its ok your saws are fine and many others will continue to run far longer than this thread no matter what brand of oil one chooses. An oil thread was a designed platform for one to display his ego, rather than prevent blow by or any other effect with in a two cycle. The winner in this thread goes to the company that markets its oil the best.


I do see what u r saying though but there has been alota good info presented here and I appreciate all of it and Redbulls efforts on his test also . I agree it would be hard to draw a conclusion. For me I take Mdavlees opinions and advice when asking about an oil


----------



## blsnelling

Scientific or not, accurate or not, it's certainly entertaining


----------



## KG441c

I tend to take the word of folks who have burn alot of oil/brands in extreme conditions plus seen the insides


----------



## mdavlee

The only thing I've seen is a lot of oils people say have bad build up are probably idled a lot. Milling when there's a mi utes of cool down at the end of a cut then shutoff to refuel and then back at it seems to keep build up down from being hotter longer or its too rich. Motul has cleaned the top of pistons off after they've been run with other oils. Klotz R50 has done as good and I figure if there's no scuffing when milling when it's 98° degrees outside and I run out mid cut and thought the saw died until I peeked in the fuel tank.


----------



## sunfish

Fish oil is pretty good stuff... Just sayin.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Well I've read the opposite in some applications.
> 
> Take into consideration a tech with Legend posted these results.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...DF3QVJLeDRrbExmSGhsc1FlWFdueHc&hl=en_US#gid=0


I know Mark Zaic personaly and he has done alot of motor work for me. He is a hell of a engine builder and a good guy but that article is full of technical mistake
.. I have used about 50 gallons of his oil and it's decent stuff in sleds.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I've also come to the conclusion most who are posting in this thread, don't really know what they're talking about. Why do I say this? because the debate has continued in circles, with a few guys saying this sucks or this is fact, than latter has nothing to back up what they said. I know what I know, I've had my personal stock saws out cut ported saws ran with different fuel mixes. Sorry until I feel well enough to do a little saw work, I'll find out what's what, even though I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.


I agree and it's very apparent given the stupid comments made..


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> ...Motul has cleaned the top of pistons off after they've been run with other oils.


On or off-road version?


----------



## Mastermind

Redbull.......here's part of a email from one of my customers in Canada.

It may make you rethink the whole resetting thing........or lack thereof.


"Hello randy.

Turns out that resetting the 661 made the biggest difference.

Now the dyno is showing the saw is having much better improvement.

Before, the pressure gauge would only show 1,600-1,700 psi full load.

My 660 has 2,000 psi.

Now the 661 is 2,100 psi and possibly gonna climb some more as the computer tweaks the saw."

The 660 he is talking about is one I built for him a few years ago. Very strong runner, and well broken in.

So I asked.

"Good deal. So the reset is a must"

And he said....

"Yeah I think so. Last time we put 2 tanks in on the dyno with saw as is but couldn't gain power.

It was the same as a stock 660.

Now it's on par with Lloyds saw.

We'll see as the saw gets run in more."


----------



## blsnelling

The first thing I do after porting an MTronic saw is to perform the reset procedure. The most immediately noticeable change is an obvious improvement in throttle response. I start the saw immediately after assemble, warm it up, then perform the reset on a warm engine.


----------



## redbull660

Mastermind said:


> Redbull.......here's part of a email from one of my customers in Canada.
> 
> It may make you rethink the whole resetting thing........or lack thereof.
> 
> 
> "Hello randy.
> 
> Turns out that resetting the 661 made the biggest difference.
> 
> Now the dyno is showing the saw is having much better improvement.
> 
> Before, the pressure gauge would only show 1,600-1,700 psi full load.
> 
> My 660 has 2,000 psi.
> 
> Now the 661 is 2,100 psi and possibly gonna climb some more as the computer tweaks the saw."
> 
> The 660 he is talking about is one I built for him a few years ago. Very strong runner, and well broken in.
> 
> So I asked.
> 
> "Good deal. So the reset is a must"
> 
> And he said....
> 
> "Yeah I think so. Last time we put 2 tanks in on the dyno with saw as is but couldn't gain power.
> 
> It was the same as a stock 660.
> 
> Now it's on par with Lloyds saw.
> 
> We'll see as the saw gets run in more."




works for me! I posted earlier I would redo the test with the reset just to be sure. But this is just more evidence in favor of redoing the test, using the reset.


im not retesting Stihl though. I'll do belray at different mixes. I've heard enough about belray h1r keeping things clean and pretty etc. I've run stihl at 40 45 and 50 to 1 - none of those have kept things clean. I have no intentions of ever using stihl ultra again, so im just not going to even bother.


----------



## Trx250r180

I will keep this still


----------



## redbull660

#$%@ing computers!


----------



## abramj

blsnelling said:


> He is risen!


 He is risen indeed!

(sorry for the late response, I've been offline)


----------



## redbull660

testing reinforcements just showed up!


----------



## abramj

I read what I could and gave up finding a discussion on the variable of fuel going the jets as the oil ratio is changing. So I am posting up some food for thought. If this has been done, I truly am sorry.

For some background information, (greatly dramatized), if you ran 6:1 and decided to change to 3:1, you just increased the amount of fuel going through the jets as the ratio of oil in the mix is dropped. If your ratio "adjustment" is minor, the change may be subtle and not so noticeable in standard operation, but may be noticeable when doing a controlled test. So, if I my new saw was set up to run 50:1 and I decide to run 32:1, I think we can easily assume that I have more oil in the mix. But what is often not so obvious is that while the oil is increased, the fuel is decreased. This will lean out the saw a bit. The M-Tronic will not adjust for this difference, unless I am miss- understanding what magical powers the M-Tronic has. And on standard saws, it is also an issue, but easier to deal with. My 385 is a prime example. At 50:1, it ran great, no issues. When I purchased it from the previous owner, I switched to 32:1 927 as that is what I use on all my other 2 stokes. I had ran this on 50:1 a bit, and it "four-stroked" at wide open. Switch to 32:1, it wouldn't. I noticed the saw was adjusted to the limits for the high needle, and I had to remove the stops and go a bit farther to get it to 4 stroke. Not much, but a little.

Now I've said all that to end in this. If you don't adjust the carb to get the same fuel going through the motor, I can't see how the saw could possibly have the same power output.

My thoughts on this....

Joe


----------



## Mastermind

Good post Joe. 

How's that 385 running?


----------



## blsnelling

abramj said:


> ...This will lean out the saw a bit. The M-Tronic will not adjust for this difference, unless I am miss- understanding what magical powers the M-Tronic has. ....
> 
> Joe


MTronic *does* tune for that, just as it tunes for anything else. MTronic knows nothing but RPMs. It's constantly adjusting the tune, searching for max RPMs. It matters not what changes, whether it's oil mix ratio, air density, fuel quality, etc.


----------



## KG441c

Looking at flashpoint and viscosity at 100°C nothing is better than Klotz R50 according to specs.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> MTronic *does* tune for that, just as it tunes for anything else. MTronic knows nothing but RPMs. It's constantly adjusting the tune, searching for max RPMs. It matters not what changes, whether it's oil mix ratio, air density, fuel quality, etc.



Thinking about it that way.........I believe you are right.


----------



## blsnelling

*Oil - Flash Point - Viscosity 40c - Viscosity 100c*

Klotz R50 - 550 - 19.1

Motul 800 2t Road Racing - 525 - 157.4 - 19.2

Motul 800 2T Off Road - 485 - 120 - 15.5

Belray H1-R - 395 - 121


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> testing reinforcements just showed up!


Looks like you are going to have a lot of .404 chains for sale after this test .........


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> *Oil - Flash Point - Viscosity 40c - Viscosity 100c*
> 
> Klotz R50 - 550 - 19.1
> 
> Motul 800 2t Road Racing - 525 - 157.4 - 19.2
> 
> Motul 800 2T Off Road - 485 - 120 - 15.5
> 
> Belray H1-R - 395 - 121


brad I couldnt find [email protected]°C for h1r or the viscosity index for r50? I believe in lab results myself and looks like r50 is the winner. Do u have specs for r2?


----------



## KenJax Tree

R50 is great oil and it smells good for the first 5 minutes then the smell gets to me.


----------



## Trx250r180

Anything gonna happen going from h1r to 927 ? i have a half gallon of 927 i wanna use up . Just make sure the H1r is dumped out of the saw first ? I was told not to mix castor with ester .


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> brad I couldnt find [email protected]°C for h1r or the viscosity index for r50? I believe in lab results myself and looks like r50 is the winner. Do u have specs for r2?


K2? The flashpoint was way lower.


----------



## KG441c

No yamalube


----------



## Mastermind

Y'all do realize how crazy we all are.......right?


----------



## KG441c

Yes I believe the lower flashpoints will burn off more readily in non full throttle and say woods racing where u will be idled down alot in turns


----------



## big t double

Mastermind said:


> Y'all do realize how crazy we all are.......right?


I was thinking that same thing about you guys....this thread has gotten completely out of hand.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417
> 
> *Flash points & Viscosity @ 40c & @100 C *
> 
> Stihl ultra syn - *432 F, [email protected] 49 [email protected] 8.45* - http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
> 
> Belray h1r - *395 F , [email protected] - 121 , [email protected] - 12.4 (per belray)* - http://www.belray.com/sites/default/files/msds_files/bel-ray h1-r racing 100% synthetic ester 2t engine oil item 99280 us_english_0.pdf
> 
> Belray mc1 - *208 F , [email protected] 244!! , [email protected] ? *http://www.belray.com/sites/default/files/msds_files/bel-ray mc-1 racing full synthetic 2t engine oil item 99400 us_english.pdf
> 
> Husky - *167 F, v @ 40c - 48, [email protected] 100c ?* - http://www.husqvarna.com/ddoc/huse/huse2010_euenapen/huse2010_euenapen_cms-s002_.pdf
> 
> woodland pro - *210 F, [email protected] 40c - ? , [email protected] 7.2* - http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf
> 
> shindaiwa red armor - *163F, [email protected] 40c - 64, [email protected] 10.3* http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
> 
> amsoil - *216 F , [email protected] - 71, [email protected] - 11.1* - http://www.amsoil.com/msds/atp.pdf
> 
> lucus - *175 F , [email protected] - ? , [email protected] - 7.5 -* http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS-2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Snowmobile.pdf
> 
> motul 710 2t - *190F, [email protected] - 46.4, [email protected] - 8.9* - https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/38/710 2T (GB).pdf?1324312083
> 
> motul 800 2t - *525 F, [email protected] 157 , [email protected] - 19.2 *- https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77796/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Road_Racing_TDS_(GB).pdf?1379696151
> 
> maxima K2 - *240F , [email protected] 40c - 97 @100c - 13.6* - http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
> 
> maxima 927 - *420F [email protected] 40c - 133 @100c - 13.8 *- http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/
> 
> Schaeffer's 9006 2t - *187F , [email protected] ?, [email protected] ?* - **thought this was interesting..."because of its flash point this product is considered to be combustible"* http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-msds.pdf
> 
> Klotz R50. - *550°F , [email protected] ? , [email protected] 19.1* - https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/MSDS/MSDS-2014-KL-102.pdf
> 
> yamalube - *255 F , [email protected] ? , [email protected] - 8.5* - https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf
> 
> 
> This is the most popular ones I've heard of. I'm sure there are others. But if you wanted to stay close to Stihl's 432 number, the only one's you'd consider trying so far would be the Belray H1R and the Maxima 927.


R50 and 800t are the clear better choices


----------



## redbull660

"gotten completely out of hand" ...someone said this is the mother of all oil threads. Would you expect anything less?


----------



## KG441c

U know these specs these engineers assign these oils are ran in an engine to failure I assume? The specs have to mean something?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> No yamalube


No dino oil will come close to the flashpoint of an ester oil.

Castor oils are right up there, but don't burn near as clean. That's the beauty of these top tier ester oils. They give the protection of castor but are clean burning.


----------



## redbull660

oil info... make up, viscosity, flash point


*
Stihl Ultra *- http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
Base Oil: Trimethylolpropane ComplexEster 80-90%
additive mixture - 0-20%

Flash point 432F
Visc @40c = 49
Visc @ 100c = 8.5
*------------------

Husky - *http://www.husqvarna.com/ddoc/huse/huse2010_euenapen/huse2010_euenapen_cms-s002_.pdf
Highly refined Mineral Oil - greater than 40%
distillate (petroleum) - 15-25%
polyolefin phenol - greater than 5%

Flash Point - 167F
Visc @ 40C = 48
Visc @ 100c = unknown
*----------------------------------*

*Yamalube *- https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

additive mixture = 16-20%
Pour Depressant mixture = <.5%
Solvent = 10-15%
Base Oil = 54-75%
Blue Dye = <.5%

Flash Point = 255F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 8.5
*------------------------------*

*Klotz R50* - https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/MSDS/MSDS-2014-KL-102.pdf

"Not applicable" ???????

Flash Point = 550F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 19.1
*------------------------------*

*Motul 710 2T* - http://www.motovan.com/img/marketing/pdf/Motul/MSDS eng/710 2T.pdf
https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/38/710 2T (GB).pdf?1324312083

Naphtha petroleum hydrotreated - less than 30%

nothing else shown

Flash Point - 190 F
Visc @ 40c = 46
Visc @ 100c = 8.9
*------------------------------------*

*Motul 800 2T - *http://www.lubrispec.com/pdf/800-2T_Road_MSDS.pdf
https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77796/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Road_Racing_TDS_(GB).pdf?1379696151

polyolefine succinimide polyamine = 4.4%
calcium alkaryl sulfonate = less than 1%
calcium alkyl phenate = less than 1%

Flash Point = 525 F
Visc @ 40c = 157
Visc @ 100c = 19.2
*--------------------------------------*

*Belray H1R* - http://www.belray.com/sites/default...ter 2t engine oil item 99280 us_english_0.pdf

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-h1-r-racing-100-synthetic-ester-2t-engine-oil


"This product considered not hazardous..."

note - contacted belray for approx make up
base oil: Proprietary Ester blend = ~90%
additive mixture = ~10%

Flash Point = 395F
Visc @ 40c = 121
Visc @ 100c = 12.4
*-----------------------------------------*

*Amsoil - http://www.amsoil.com/msds/atp.pdf*
Synthetic Ester = 30-60%
Butnene homopolymer - 30-60%
Solvent naphtha = 10-30%
n,n di sec butylphenylenediamine .1%

Flash Point = 216F
Visc @ 40c = 71
Visc @ 100c = 11.1
*-----------------------------

Lucus - http://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_2-Cycle-Snowmobile-Oil.pdf
Solvent naphtha petroleum = 10-30%
1 decene, homopolymer hydyrogenated = 10-30%

doesn't show anything else.

Flash Point = 175F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.5
--------------------------------

Maxima K2 - http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2.pdf
http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
Synthetic Ester Base Stock = 65-75%
Solvent Naphtha = 5-10%
Polybutene = 5-15%
Multi functional additive mixture = 5-15%

Flash Point = 240F
Visc @ 40C = 97
Visc @ 100c= 13.6
---------------------------------

Maxima 927 - http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Castor 927.pdf
http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/

modified fatty acid ester = <50% "fatty acid ester"? LOL
castor Oil = 50-70%
additive mixture = 10-20%

Flash Point = 420F
Visc @ 40c = 133
Visc @ 100c = 13.8
-------------------------------------

Woodland Pro synthetic- http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf
performance additive = 5-12%
high flash solvent = 22-27%
base oil - synthetic = 45-57%
Blue Dye = ~ .5%
Low smoke additive = 30-40%
fuel stabilizer - less than 2%

Flash Point = 210F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.2
--------------------------------------

Shindaiwa red armor - http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
Polybutene = 15-40%
Proprietary Ester = 10-30%
Distillates (petroleum) = 10-30%
Highly refined petroleum lubricant oils = 10-30%
Hydrocarbyl amine = 7-13%
alkyl imidazoline = 1-5%
Alkarylamine = less than 2%
Solvent naphta = less than 2%

Flash Point = 163F
Visc @ 40c = 64
Visc @ 100c = 10.3
-----------------------------------------

Schaffer's - http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-msds.pdf

Complex mixture of Synthetic Base oils = 10-90%
proprietary additives = <15%


Flash point = 187F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = unknown
----------------------------------------*


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> No dino oil will come close to the flashpoint of an ester oil.


For max protection there r 2 choices here I see. R50 and 800t. Now Redbull either of thoso 2 vs yamalube would tell us if its marketing hype or the lab testing and specs r on target?


----------



## Mastermind

I'm thinking the lower viscosity oils may be better for performance, based on less drag?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> For max protection there r 2 choices here I see. R50 and 800t. Now Redbull either of thoso 2 vs yamalube would tell us if its marketing gype or the lab testing and specs r on target?


You're splitting hairs to leave out H1-R.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> I'm thinking the lower viscosity oils may be better for performance, based on less drag?


Or the ester oils at a thinner mix???


----------



## blsnelling

Of course that's totally contrary to all testing that's published.


----------



## abramj

Randy, Not ran the 385 yet, it's track season, rain season, spring cleaning season, and still need to get the mower running, fix the AC on our van, finish my bicycle so I can start training for my "century" ride in July, sell a few more things to help pay for a CB550 project motorcycle...Priorities Priorities Prioritites..... All work and no play makes Joe a dull boy.... But I plan on starting it up Friday and get it on a 42" Osage Orange Tree that's down across the street. I will do a few test cuts and tuning prior to digging into that big boy tree. 


Brad, thanks for the explanation, thought it was just a fancy pants improvement to the previous version of the compensating carbs. I don't have any of those fancy things on my old stuff. Just going off on what I hear. Probably should have not mentioned it as it shows my lack of smarts.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I'm thinking the lower viscosity oils may be better for performance, based on less drag?


Less carbon also if operating equipment at lower speeds or idle


----------



## Mastermind

abramj said:


> Randy, Not ran the 385 yet, it's track season, rain season, spring cleaning season, and still need to get the mower running, fix the AC on our van, finish my bicycle so I can start training for my "century" ride in July, sell a few more things to help pay for a CB550 project motorcycle...Priorities Priorities Prioritites..... All work and no play makes Joe a dull boy.... But I plan on starting it up Friday and get it on a 42" Osage Orange Tree that's down across the street. I will do a few test cuts and tuning prior to digging into that big boy tree.
> 
> 
> Brad, thanks for the explanation, thought it was just a fancy pants improvement to the previous version of the compensating carbs. I don't have any of those fancy things on my old stuff. Just going off on what I hear. Probably should have not mentioned it as it shows my lack of smarts.



We all learn a lot by being a part of these threads. 

What I've learned? 

Use any good oil.......and kill stuff.


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> Less carbon also if operating euipment at lower speads or idle



I'm gonna be mixing out of a qt of 2R for the next couple of weeks. I'll let y'all know what I think.


----------



## KG441c

Ya probably so. My question would be as the same as in my oil thread previously about which produced better performance between higher and lower flashpoint oils and do the higher ester flashpoint oils hender combustion to the point to where performance falls off in our paticular application of saws


----------



## abramj

Mastermind said:


> We all learn a lot by being a part of these threads.
> 
> What I've learned?
> 
> Use any good oil.......and kill stuff.


 
What I've learned.... No matter how great you take care of some items, they will break. And no matter how hard you try to break some things, they won't. The less frustrated this makes you, the longer I believe you will live.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> option 1 - you can run a thicker oil like belray h1r at 42:1 (42 seems to be close to number at least in my saw)
> 
> option 2 - you could run a thinner oil like maxima k2, yamalube 2r , lucus. at 32:1
> 
> So my current theory is that you might have close to the same temps, steadiness, and times. Maybe? maybe not? But the h1r would likely protect better? Very curious what you have to say?


This nails it from what in understanding. The only problem I'm having is with published scientific test data that proves more oil to make more power. Perhaps most of that testing was done before this generation of ultra high viscosity and extremely high flashpoint ester based oils. Perhaps oil was thin enough back then that it didn't drag the engine down and these news oils do. Or do ester oils not combust as well? Or, Do they combust better, and it's all about the viscosity?


----------



## KenJax Tree

So based on viscosity @ 100c and film strength between H1R and K2 the K2 is the better oil? H1R is 12.4 and K2 is 13.6


----------



## farmer steve

redbull660 said:


> "gotten completely out of hand" ...someone said this is the mother of all oil threads. Would you expect anything less?


i was thinking that at about page 30.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> So based on viscosity @ 100c and film strength between H1R and K2 the K2 is the better oil? H1R is 12.4 and K2 is 13.6


Yet K2 has a MUCH lower flashpoint. I have found it to be significantly smokier, especially when cold.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I will never understand any of this stuff[emoji2]


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> This nails it from what in understanding. The only problem I'm having is with published scientific test data that proves more oil to make more power. Perhaps most of that testing was done before this generation of ultra high viscosity and extremely high flashpoint ester based oils. Perhaps oil was thin enough back then that it didn't drag the engine down and these news oils do. Or do ester oils not combust as well? Or, Do they combust better, and it's all about the viscosity?



Don't forget.......we are still only looking at the results in one saw, used by one person. 

And the saw is an M-Tronic saw to boot.

I'd be hesitant to toss the baby out with the bathwater over this one test.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> Don't forget.......we are still only looking at the results in one saw, used by one person.
> 
> And the saw is an M-Tronic saw to boot.
> 
> I'd be hesitant to toss the baby out with the bathwater over this one test.


I agree entirely. 

I'm still very much stuck on using an ester based oil *for the ultimate in protection*. It simply has a much higher film strength, especially when pushed to the limit. *For normal operation, I doubt it really matters.*


----------



## KG441c

Im not sure where it says 12.4 cSt for h1r but I would think it would be on par with 800t and r50


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> I agree entirely.
> 
> I'm still very much stuck on using an ester based oil *for the ultimate in protection*. It simply has a much higher film strength, especially when pushed to the limit. *For normal operation, I doubt it really matters.*


Is r50 ester?


----------



## Mastermind

Julian, I'd like to see these tests done with a ported non M/T saw.

I'm sure we can come up with one if you'd like to try it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

You also gotta remember you're only talking to a Belray tech so he's obviously leaning towards Belray. Is he really gonna say use Motul 800?


----------



## blsnelling

I don't like that H1-R has different tuning needs than all these other oils. H1-R is popular here not because it was proven to be the best, but rather that it is a known top tier oil and was not offensive smelling. I believe all of these ester oils oils will give similar protection. That's why I honestly don't care which one is in my saw. I just find the hunt for the "best" oil to be fun. You can call me weird if you want


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've talked to Belray and Maxima and was told for best results use H1R @42:1 and use K2 @ 40-45:1


----------



## blsnelling

Why is the flashpoint for K2 so much lower than the others. I find that odd. Is that part of why I find it smokier on a cold startup?


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> Why is the flashpoint for K2 so much lower than the others. I find that odd. Is that part of why I find it smokier on a cold startup?


Seems like it would smoke less if it was burning off and vaporizing faster


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> On or off-road version?


Off road.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> I don't like that H1-R has different tuning needs than all these other oils. H1-R is popular here not because it was proven to be the best, but rather that it is a known top tier oil and was not offensive smelling. I believe all of these ester oils oils will give similar protection. That's why I honestly don't care which one is in my saw. I just find the hunt for the "best" oil to be fun. You can call me weird if you want



I've promoted the hell out of H1R. 

After seeing a few blown cranks I started talking it up. 

The way I looked at it, it just helped protect the saws I was doing. The tune thing has always been a worry of mine though.....

Brad......if you're weird then we all are.......look what we are doing.


----------



## Trx250r180

When do we test bar oil ,i like the husky stuff myself


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> I don't like that H1-R has different tuning needs than all these other oils. H1-R is popular here not because it was proven to be the best, but rather that it is a known top tier oil and was not offensive smelling. I believe all of these ester oils oils will give similar protection. That's why I honestly don't care which one is in my saw. I just find the hunt for the "best" oil to be fun. You can call me weird if you want


I can't run h1r. I end up with watering eyes and a runny nose. that and a few saws didn't want to tune down and we're around 1.75 turns out on the H turned me away from it.


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> You also gotta remember you're only talking to a Belray tech so he's obviously leaning towards Belray. Is he really gonna say use Motul 800?



I've weighed that into my considerations, for sure. If Randy had been using and having success with Motul 800. I'd probably be swayed that way. Meaning we kinda know that (d.) the tear down is covered. We KNOW H1R does the job at protecting.

And the belray guy said it himself - *..."Usually* less viscous oil needs to be at a richer ratio to counteract the weaker film strength, but it’s not always the case. You can make generalizations and it may be true for a majority of the time, but there will always be some outliers that don’t fit the curve. ....Yes, you are likely to see very similar performance from a lot of oils, that’s why everyone has their favorite oil and swears it’s the best."



So belray is saying expect to see similar performance from a lot of oils. IMPORTANT - similar performance was *referring* to times and temps...not about the protection. I think that is what sets them apart.



So in my mind I'm thinking...

I know H1R protects chainsaws really really well. And belray says times and temps are going to be close between a lot of oils(Given the correct/idel mix ratio for that particular oil). So Why then should I spend my time looking at others? * Just find the ideal mix ratio of H1R and call it good.*


But yeah we could test all sorts of oils out there and check times and temps and how constant & consistent those temps were. We could have chad do the dyno thing as well. But per Belray most of the oils out there are going to have similar or same performance numbers.

BUT the only oil that has the most history of KNOWN protection in chainsaws is H1R (per randy)


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> I've promoted the hell out of H1R.
> 
> After seeing a few blown cranks I started talking it up.
> 
> The way I looked at it, it just helped protect the saws I was doing. The tune thing has always been a worry of mine though.....
> 
> Brad......if you're weird then we all are.......look what we are doing.


Wouldn't you agree that any of these top tier ester oils would likely give the same protection? I really think it comes down to availability, and personal preferences such as smell and sinus reaction.


----------



## mdavlee

We need Chad to test a couple on his dyno. That would be the easiest way to see what made the most power.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Wouldn't you agree that any of these top tier ester oils would likely give the same protection? I really think it comes down to availability, and personal preferences such as smell and sinus reaction.



Yes I would Brad. 

I like some better than others based on crown buildup. But any of them will protect the engine. 

I'll still be recommending 32:1......and even more oil in a milling saw though.


----------



## Mastermind

Oh........the reason I recommend the OE oils at 40:1 is based on crown buildup, and muffler spooge. 

The Ultra is very dirty.......and downright nasty at 32:1. But some guys wanna use it.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> Yes I would Brad.
> 
> I like some better than others based on crown buildup. But any of them will protect the engine.
> 
> I'll still be recommending 32:1......and even more oil in a milling saw though.


Of the following oils, how would you rate them in cleanliness?

H1-R
R50
800-2T
K2


----------



## Mastermind

They are all very clean from what I've seen. BUT........most of the saws I see that have been used on them were for only a few tanks before being sent for mods.


----------



## KG441c

From alot of older post several years ago several of u guys didnt like r50? Said too much carbon buildup?


----------



## Mastermind

R50 is a very clean oil. 

Super Techniplate is nasty stuff in a saw engine though.


----------



## MustangMike

Brian, TS (CountyLine) bar oil.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> They are all very clean from what I've seen. BUT........most of the saws I see that have been used on them were for only a few tanks before being sent for mods.


And that's exactly where I am. I don't get enough run time to make a fair comparison.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> When do we test bar oil ,i like the husky stuff myself


----------



## KG441c

What oil is super techniplate?


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> View attachment 418180


Your battery is about dead


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> R50 is a very clean oil.
> 
> Super Techniplate is nasty stuff in a saw engine though.





Have some oil Randy...
Don't forget to mix it at 70:1..
Very clean...
And dry..


----------



## Hedgerow

KG441c said:


> What oil is super techniplate?


For mixing with alcohol...


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> For mixing with alcohol...


Isn't it R50 with 20% BeNOL caster oil?


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Isn't it R50 with 20% BeNOL caster oil?


Klotz super techniplate is the stuff that left brown cooked tar all over the inside of the 562 stumpy sent over to me to run and break in.. 2.5 gallons mixed at 32:1...
Can't find the pictures from the thread, but I swear I can still smell it 3 years later in my sinuses!!
It's like flashbacks...


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> Klotz super techniplate is the stuff that left brown cooked tar all over the inside of the 562 stumpy sent over to me to run and break in..
> Can't find the pictures from the thread, but I swear I can still smell it 3 years later in my sinuses!!


Yeah i remember that thread


----------



## KenJax Tree

Here Matt


----------



## blsnelling

Looks to me like that saw was WAY over heated, more than a function of the oil. I would have to see more evidence, more examples, before I'd say that was the oil.


----------



## Hedgerow

Yup.. There it is.. I believe 2 more gallons would have made that saw in-operable..


----------



## Hedgerow

blsnelling said:


> Looks to me like that saw was WAY over heated, more than a function of the oil. I would have to see more evidence, more examples, before I'd say that was the oil.



I ran it..
What do you want to know...?


----------



## mdavlee

I talked with the klotz tech R50 is pure synthetic from what he told me. It's not from an ester. He did say it was the best choice for high rpm saws. Super is the best for methanol or exotic fuels.


----------



## KG441c

Hedgerow said:


> Yup.. There it is.. I believe 2 more gallons would have made that saw in-operable..


Do u like the regular r50? Burn clean?


----------



## Hedgerow

KG441c said:


> Do u like the regular r50? Burn clean?


Don't know.. 
Never used it..


----------



## KenJax Tree

Matt likes Lucas


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Matt likes Lucas


I was spending $40 a month on ultra...
Sumpin' had to change...
I actually like free samples better than Lucas..


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> I was spending $40 a month on ultra...
> Sumpin' had to change...
> I actually like free samples better than Lucas..


Free is good....

I have 8 3.5oz bottles of Amsoil Saber i got for free and i've never used it.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

My saw at 40:1 with Ultra was clean but oily. I tried R50 at 40:1 and it left a black goey sludge like coating on the piston. Maybe I ran the R50 too rich?.


----------



## bwalker

R50 is a diester.


----------



## MustangMike

The Saber at 40:1 seems to work fine for me (and it makes the gas a pretty blue color, very important!)


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> R50 is a diester.


Why? There is a guy on here that has milled with it plenty in his ported saws? 0 issues


----------



## bwalker

Here is a thought for all to ponder..
Regardless of which oil used carb tuning is crucial to the performance and longevity of the motor. It's foolish to worry about oil till you have that nailed down as any JASO-FD or ISO- EGD oil will do.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Why? There is a guy on here that has milled with it plenty in his ported saws? 0 issues


 Di-ester... not disaster... it should work decent in a milling application..
Another dirty little secret of mine.. I'll run Klotz Super Techniplate at times in my mx bike just because I like the way it smells..


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Here is a thought for all to ponder..
> Regardless of which oil used carb tuning is crucial to the performance and longevity of the motor. It's foolish to worry about oil till you have that nailed down as any JASO-FD or ISO- EGD oil will do.





bwalker said:


> Di-ester... not disaster... it should work decent in a milling application..
> Another dirty little secret of mine.. I'll run Klotz Super Techniplate at times in my mx bike just because I like the way it smells..


lol!! Ok sorry


----------



## KenJax Tree

MustangMike said:


> The Saber at 40:1 seems to work fine for me (and it makes the gas a pretty blue color, very important!)


Mike i can fit 5 3.5oz bottles in a small $5 flat rate box send me an address and they're yours. I have 8 if you want them all, they're all sealed.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Di-ester... not disaster... it should work decent in a milling application..
> Another dirty little secret of mine.. I'll run Klotz Super Techniplate at times in my mx bike just because I like the way it smells..


What exactly is di ester


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Looks to me like that saw was WAY over heated, more than a function of the oil. I would have to see more evidence, more examples, before I'd say that was the oil.


That's pretty indicative of castor oil not ran at high enough temps. Seen it many times. When it's heated up castor polymerization instead of.combusting cleanly.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What exactly is di ester


Google..


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> What exactly is di ester



http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diester


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diester


Okay its means derived from 2 ester compounds. Double estered but it doesnt say that on the Klotz site. BWalker how do u know this?


----------



## KenJax Tree

800 is a double ester too....is that why they have the highest flashpoint?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> 800 is a double ester too....is that why they have the highest flashpoint?


R50 has the highest flashpoint


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> 800 is a double ester too....is that why they have the highest flashpoint?


Typically the synthetic components of two cycle oils are PIB or various different sorts of esters. Di esters are certainly no better that polyol-ester or carboxylic esters. Probably the finest ester based oil I have seen was mx2t which was a carboxylic ester. Mobil always had a leg up on the small guys because they actually design and make the esters then market them to the smaller guys. Of course they keep the best proprietary for themselves.


----------



## blsnelling

Guys, this is nothing. There is a whole forum dedicated to the discussion of oil! BITOG http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> Di-ester... not disaster... it should work decent in a milling application..
> Another dirty little secret of mine.. I'll run Klotz Super Techniplate at times in my mx bike just because I like the way it smells..


Gack...!!
I can still taste that stuff... 
I'm thinking 32:1 might have been too much for that application...
But we didn't know that...


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> R50 has the highest flashpoint


Right but both double ester oils are the top 2


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> Gack...!!
> I can still taste that stuff...
> I'm thinking 32:1 might have been too much for that application...
> But we didn't know that...


Stuff just smells fast.. and if I jet to the edge the and keep the load up it burns clean enough that the piston doesn't too bad. The exhaust valves however get filthy very fast.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Right but both double ester oils are the top 2


Its not double.. and top two at what. The higher the end point the dirtier they are btw.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Its not double.. and top two at what. The higher the end point the dirtier they are btw.


Top 2 as far as flashpoint on the ones listed here in this thread.


----------



## KenJax Tree

And what isn't double?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Top 2 as far as flashpoint on the ones listed here in this thread.


Peanut butter is even higher. Why not use that?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> And what isn't double?


Its not a double ester, it's di-ester.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Peanut butter is even higher. Why not use that?


Who said i was gonna use either one of them?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Who said i was gonna use either one of them?


No one.. but using the same logic as some ie higher flashpoint is better peanut butter would male an excellent two cycle oil.
I must also point out that flash point is not indicative of end point, IE when all the oil is actually combusted.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I guess you missed the point of my post. With the 800 being double ester and the R50 being di ester i asked if that could be why they are 1 and 2 on the list here as far as flashpoint because of the esters. They're higher by a good margin. Thats all i asked


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I guess you missed the point of my post. With the 800 being double ester and the R50 being di ester i asked if that could be why they are 1 and 2 on the list here as far as flashpoint because of the esters. They're higher by a good margin. Thats all i asked


There is no such thing as a double ester.. They are higher because the lowest component in their blend ignites at higher temps. Flash point doesn't measure what you think it does and is mostly given for purposes of shipping and storage.


----------



## PhilMcWoody

CR888 said:


> Andy if you came here for any conclusions to anything oil related l think you had wasted hope. Its ok your saws are fine and many others will continue to run far longer than this thread no matter what brand of oil one chooses. An oil thread was a designed platform for one to display his ego, rather than prevent blow by or any other effect with in a two cycle. The winner in this thread goes to the company that markets its oil the best.



 and there I was thinking this was a kind of info-tainment thread 
Give it three  anyway

DIGRESSION WARNING
Road and mountain bike chain lubes have had years of fun discussion, too. A good bit different from saws —in that no heat issues to speak of though, so much less complicated — their issues are penetration, penetration and lubrication, rust protection and staying power vs dirt attraction among other things. I wound up making my own home brew as the premium bike chain lubes are so darn expensive — 4 fl oz for $8 — and a good home mix can work almost as well. Chainsaw Bar oil and Odorless Mineral Spirits does well for many — also added a little Stihl Ultra in there for ***** and giggles, but its high ash content makes it a little dirty compared with what I'm used to putting on a bike chain.


----------



## KenJax Tree

If you Google double ester 2t only 800 shows up


----------



## bwalker

Probably because it's referee to as a diester..not double.


----------



## bwalker

Di- ester is short for Dibasic acid ester..


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Probably because it's referee to as a diester..not double.


The bottle of 800t or h1r says double ester but I cant remember which one


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> The bottle of 800t or h1r says double ester but I cant remember which one


I have never seen that.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> The bottle of 800t or h1r says double ester but I cant remember which one


Maybe they are referring to a blend of two different esters also? Or maybe something was fubared in translating from French.


----------



## KenJax Tree




----------



## KG441c

Chris u know the 800t road has the highest specs of all them!


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> View attachment 418276


See above.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Chris u know the 800t road has the highest specs of all them!


Peanut butter would beat it!


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Peanut butter would beat it!


********!!! Lol


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Peanut butter would beat it!


My grandmother has some commodity peanut butter if u want it!!


----------



## Mastermind




----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Chris u know the 800t road has the highest specs of all them!


Yes i do....i use it in my dirt bike


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Yes i do....i use it in my dirt bike


Chris why the highend oil for the bike but not the saws?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> ********!!! Lol


Has a higher flashpoint!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Chris why the highend oil for the bike but not the saws?


Maybe because in a low stress application like a saw it's the wrong oil for the application?


----------



## KenJax Tree

My bike isn't stock at all....my saws are[emoji1]


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Chris why the highend oil for the bike but not the saws?


Bikes, karts, etc put out WAAAAAY more HP for a given engine size. They are far more stressed than a chainsaw engine. There's simply not room in a chainsaw package to build that kind of performance.


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Chris u know the 800t road has the highest specs of all them!


R50 has the highest flashpoint. 800 2T Road Racing has 0.1 higher viscosity at 100°C.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Bikes, karts, etc put out WAAAAAY more HP for a given engine size. They are far more stressed than a chainsaw engine. There's simply not room in a chainsaw package to build that kind of performance.


Way lower BMEP on a saw. And pretty low load to boot.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Maybe because in a low stress application like a saw it's the wrong oil for the application?


I believe you are way off on that. A saw is high stress imo especially milling and cutting bigwood non stop and noodling


----------



## blsnelling

What we have to caution for here, is taking a single piece of information, possibly out of context, making an uneducated assumption, and then running with it as fact. I watch this happen all the time, including this thread. I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself. We're not doing much more than guessing, including myself. The risk here is, others will suddenly jump on that bandwagon, and all of the sudden, it's fact. The fact of the matter is, none of us have the knowledge or means to really figure this out. That's why I say to simply pick a known good oil and run it at a safe ratio. You're really not going to do much better than that without a PHD in Tribology and a lab with significant resources to back it up. In the mean time, I'm thoroughly enjoying most of the conversation and seeing the results that the OP comes back with. Make sense?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> I believe you are way off on that. A saw is high stress imo especially milling and cutting bigwood non stop and noodling


Not even remotely close. Neither the porting, induction, or exhaust is in the ball park of what is employed on motorcycles, quads, sleds, etc.


----------



## KG441c

Well we r pissing our money away on these oils then?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Pretty much...thats why my Lucas is only $30 a gallon[emoji1]


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Well we r pissing our money away on these oils then?


Quite possibly. Same with your insurance money. Like I've said before, most all oils made today are very good. I'm only looking at this as protection for that near catastrophic event, which isn't likely to happen. I fully believe that the amount of oil is more critical than the brand of oil. The truth be told, I run Baileys Full Synthetic as much or more than anything else.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Quite possibly. Same with your insurance money. Like I've said before, most all oils made today are very good. I'm only looking at this as protection for that near catastrophic event, which isn't likely to happen. I fully believe that the amount of oil is more critical than the brand of oil.


They differance between the highest end oil and the lowest offer is very little in the way of insurance.


----------



## KG441c

I look at it like protection from double condoms!! Necessary? No!! But probably would make me feel better protected!! Lol!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> I look at it like protection from double condoms!! Necessary? No!! But probably would make me feel better!!! Lol!!!


Just a little FYI Keith....2 condoms isn't really gonna make anything FEEL better[emoji23]


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Just a little FYI Keith....2 condoms isn't really gonna make anything FEEL better[emoji23]


Lmbo!! Sensitivity no but future security yes!!!


----------



## blsnelling

Let me put this in perspective. A factory built 125cc dirt bike makes more than 40 HP. What does a 3120XP make? Only 8.4HP. An 80cc dirt bike makes 20-25 HP. A ported 461 only makes 8 HP. The power output of a chainsaw, even ported, is quite low. The limiting factory is space. These other engines are water cooled, have reed induction, way more advanced porting, and a tuned pipe. All of these are huge factors that a chainsaw simply doesn't have.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Let me put this in perspective. A factory built 125cc dirt bike makes more than 40 HP. What does a 3120XP make? Only 8.4HP. An 80cc dirt bike makes 20-25 HP. A ported 461 only makes 8 HP. The power output of a chainsaw, even ported, is quite low. The limiting factory is space. These other engines are water cooled, have reed induction, way more advanced porting, and a tuned pipe. All of these are huge factors that a chainsaw simply doesn't have.


What about rpm and temp from one to the other?


----------



## CR500

Can we agree that if you pick a quality brand synthetic weather Stihl or Motul and mix at 32:1 in a ported saw that the oil will do it's job?

I think the answer is yes. A little carbon and small loss of HP isn't the end all I think? Maxima K2 is one of my favorite oils.

With 927 though I do wonder if 40:1 would be an idea since it has left a few saws with some ugly crowns. I ran a few gallons of 927
last summer and it did alright by me but after that one pic of that stock 362 piston I'm kind of sketched by it lol

Again maybe it is stock vs ported that contributed to the 927 discussion 
Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## blsnelling

I know I'm sounding like I'm not interested in finding the holy grail of oils. Not the case at all. I'm simply trying to put this in perspective. We are enthusiasts. You're going to get that here. We want the most we can get out of our saws, and we want to provide them with the best protection we can, even if we don't need it, lol. There is a point where better isn't better. Beyond a certain point, there is no real gain. We, I, enjoy this stuff, including the oil discussions. It's all part of the addiction, errr obsession, errr hobby


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> What about rpm and temp from one to the other?


If I'm not mistaken, a 125 dirtbike will turn something like 13K RPMs. Don't quote me on that though. 

These very best oils are super critical in the likes of kart racing. They're making insane HP and turning something like 20K RPMs. That's when you REALLY need these oils!


----------



## Marshy

KG441c said:


> I look at it like protection from double condoms!! Necessary? No!! But probably would make me feel better protected!! Lol!!!


 Double the protection and make the fun last longer..?


----------



## blsnelling

CR500 said:


> Can we agree that if you pick a quality brand synthetic weather Stihl or Motul and mix at 32:1 in a ported saw that the oil will do it's job?
> 
> I think the answer is yes.


Absolutely!


----------



## huskihl

You guys should ask him to test astroglide and ky jelly cuz anybody that pays $50 a gallon for 2 stroke oil is taking it in the a$$


----------



## blsnelling

huskihl said:


> You guys should ask him to test astroglide and ky jelly cuz anybody that pays $50 a gallon for 2 stroke oil is taking it in the a$$


Now that was funny, lol. I've even been trying to find a way to import some Mobil 1 2T Racing oil. Do I need it? Nope! But I WANT it  It has more protection than I will ever need in a chainsaw, and is said to be the cleanest burning of them all. I like the sounds of that!


----------



## KG441c

Redbulls test of faster times with leaner ratios didnt suprise me but I dont feel comfortable at 45to1 or 50to1 in my ported saws


----------



## KG441c

I just ordered a quart of r50!! I feel better!!!


----------



## huskihl

I'm gonna stick to my cheap stuff til one of mine blows up. My 1997 ts400 concrete saw has probably 1000 hours on it. A lot of that is 5-8 hours at a time cutting driveways wot minus fill ups. Just re ringed this year. I just can't justify the added cost, as minimal as it is. I have Yamaha and still local to me. When one burns up I'm going Yamaha the


----------



## huskihl

blsnelling said:


> If I'm not mistaken, a 125 dirtbike will turn something like 13K RPMs. Don't quote me on that though.
> 
> These very best oils are super critical in the likes of kart racing. They're making insane HP and turning something like 20K RPMs. That's when you REALLY need these oils!


You've gotta be close. When we were kids, a 250r's shift point was 10,800. 125 today has to be 13k. I bet a kx65 is 15k.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> If I'm not mistaken, a 125 dirtbike will turn something like 13K RPMs. Don't quote me on that though.
> 
> These very best oils are super critical in the likes of kart racing. They're making insane HP and turning something like 20K RPMs. That's when you REALLY need these oils!


I might point out that Yamaha 2R is commonly used in these applications..


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Now that was funny, lol. I've even been trying to find a way to import some Mobil 1 2T Racing oil. Do I need it? Nope! But I WANT it  It has more protection than I will ever need in a chainsaw, and is said to be the cleanest burning of them all. I like the sounds of that!


I would go in with you on a few cases.


----------



## bwalker

s


KG441c said:


> I believe you are way off on that. A saw is high stress imo especially milling and cutting bigwood non stop and noodling


Its really not.


----------



## Hedgerow

I'll just keep using my cheap stuff...


----------



## huskihl

Hedgerow said:


> I'll just keep using my cheap stuff...


I love the smell of tcw3 in the morning


----------



## Hedgerow

huskihl said:


> I love the smell of tcw3 in the morning


That's cheap **** even by my standards!!
As long as it's blue you should be ok though...
Lol...


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I might point out that Yamaha 2R is commonly used in these applications..



And some report viscosity breakdown in those applications. In some ceases castor is the only option OMHO.

I found Motul 800 to lubricate extremely well, but it left a mess in stock saw mufflers, which I don't necessarily always consider a bad thing.


----------



## huskihl

Hedgerow said:


> That's cheap **** even by my standards!!
> As long as it's blue you should be ok though...
> Lol...


It is. 3 oz per gallon never fails me. I've been into all of my saws and everything is oily wet. A logger buddy has a 385-395xp part saw boneyard full of broken handles, tanks, and missing fins. But none of them are burned up. Same oil


----------



## huskihl

I noticed the mystic oil in those tests a few pages back. Middle of the road on those tests. But meets our ram requirements. Jaso fd passed. Any thoughts? I think it's available at TS or their knock off stores


----------



## Hedgerow

huskihl said:


> It is. 3 oz per gallon never fails me. I've been into all of my saws and everything is oily wet. A logger buddy has a 385-395xp part saw boneyard full of broken handles, tanks, and missing fins. But none of them are burned up. Same oil


Yeah.. They usually kill em long before the lube does...
Sans one crew here.. Those boys drank the 70:1 opti 2 koolaid.. 
1 year and out... 
They runnin 365xt's...

Of all models, they could use a little more oil... /-:


----------



## huskihl

Hedgerow said:


> Yeah.. They usually kill em long before the lube does...
> Sans one crew here.. Those boys drank the 70:1 opti 2 koolaid..
> 1 year and out...
> They runnin 365xt's...
> 
> Of all models, they could use a little more oil... /-:


I'm gonna try 4 oz per gal and retune. Maybe next weekend. Time some cuts and see what gives. Who knows.


----------



## KenJax Tree

4oz.? Cool


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> 4oz.? Cool


Your point?


----------



## KenJax Tree

huskihl said:


> Your point?


Just messin' man....and stuff [emoji6]


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Just messin' man[emoji6]


Figured maybe the "old school" oil might be the reason behind the "more oil = more power theory". Curious is all


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> And some report viscosity breakdown in those applications. In some ceases castor is the only option OMHO.
> 
> I found Motul 800 to lubricate extremely well, but it left a mess in stock saw mufflers, which I don't necessarily always consider a bad thing.


I have never read that, nor seen that and not from lack of trying.


----------



## mdavlee

I wish I had time to test some of this. The muffler on my 046 isn't oily inside with the 800. It's tuned to around 14k with fingers but no compression increase. I've been too lazy to pull it apart and cut it. It's been run on 32:1 motul for the last few gallons. Before that I finished up a quart of R50 with it and a 395 that was here.


----------



## bwalker

And Andy, if your blowing unburnt oil out the muffler your leaching heat and hp out if the combustion chamber. Its likely you will have deposits sooner or latter in the exhaust port from the unburnt oil accumulating. Potentially the same issue with the ring grooves on the exhaust side of the piston.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> And Andy, if your blowing unburnt oil out the muffler your leaching heat and hp out if the combustion chamber. Its likely you will have deposits sooner or latter in the exhaust port from the unburnt oil accumulating. Potentially the same issue with the ring grooves on the exhaust side of the piston.


Im just thinkin out loud but if the port , rings, and mufller r staying alil wet the wet oil isnt gonna turn into carbon is it? Wouldnt it be the burnt depoists that form buildup or the burnt depoists with the oil together?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Its likely you will have deposits sooner or latter in the exhaust port from the unburnt oil accumulating. Potentially the same issue with the ring grooves on the exhaust side of the piston.


I have at least 50 tanks of R50 through this @ 32:1 since the end of last summer. I aint the only one throwing up actual pictures that were taken from saws that get used, and I havent seen anything even close to what you are saying that we will see.


----------



## porsche965

Just thinking. What if a test took two chainsaws brand new and mixed the two leading oils discussed here at 100:1, like Amsoil claims to be able to run at, and fill the saws.

Then zip tie the triggers to WOT and see which one fails first. For a longer run until failure mix at 80:1. What if they don't fail? The winner would certainly be the stronger oil, right?

Wouldn't have to use a Pro Saw either. A $200 homeowner saw would suffice would it not? I'd be curious to see what would happen. And I wonder what the inside of the engine would look like.


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> Just thinking. What if a test took two chainsaws brand new and mixed the two leading oils discussed here and mixed them at 100:1, like Amsoil claims to be able to run at and fill the saws.
> 
> Then zip tie the triggers to WOT and see which one fails first. For a longer run until failure mix at 80:1. What if they don't fail? The winner would certainly be the stronger oil, right?
> 
> Wouldn't have to use a Pro Saw either. A $200 homeowner saw would suffice would it not? I'd be curious to see what would happen. And I wonder what the inside of the engine would look like.


Something like this is the only way you could really test the limits of an oil. Most of us aren't willing to go that far in order to answer these questions. Factories can and do. That's what I mean when I say that most of us don't have the means to find real answers.


----------



## blsnelling

Might as well leave the cylinder cover off in order to speed up the process.

Personally, I would warm the saw up first, then start the test.


----------



## porsche965

Quote:
Something like this is the only way you could really test the limits of an oil. Most of us aren't willing to go that far in order to answer these questions. Factories can and do. That's what I mean when I say that most of us don't have the means to find real answers.
*********
I wonder if the Oil Manufacturers have done this? Maybe we should ask? I'm sure the Product Manufacturers won't tell us their results. They'd claim "that's too much information" for us to know.

Racing extremes is where R&D is constantly focused, looking for failures in order to improve products. Instead of starting at the 32:1 safe end I just thought a test at the other, or extreme end would close down the conclusions much faster. The amount of $ that is being spent on oils (me included) is way more than a combined effort in buying new saws for some scientific test or whatever us backyard non-engineer types could do. Certainly not saying there aren't any engineers on this site but most of us are not. No offense intended by any means guys.


----------



## blsnelling

You buy the saws, I'll burn them up 

If there was an AM cylinder that could be counted on to be very consistent and good every time, you could use the same saw and just swap topends. Yes, this test might damage the bottom ends, but I doubt they'd fail before the topend burnt up.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> You buy the saws, I'll burn them up
> 
> If there was an AM cylinder that could be counted on to be very consistent and good every time, you could use the same saw and just swap topends. Yes, this test might damage the bottom ends, but I doubt they'd fail before the topend burnt up.


Thats what im talkin about!! Blowem up!!! Lol


----------



## Mastermind

I'd expect to see the crank die first.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I'd expect to see the crank die first.


I agree


----------



## MustangMike

You can't just do 2 saws, one with each. Any saw can have a flaw (especially a cheap one).

You would need about 10 saws (5 w/each) for the results to be meaningful at all.


----------



## Trx250r180

..How bout some love here


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> ..How bout some love here
> View attachment 418326


Id take the orange bottle and run Yamaha ringfree in it


----------



## blsnelling

MustangMike said:


> You can't just do 2 saws, one with each. Any saw can have a flaw (especially a cheap one).
> 
> You would need about 10 saws (5 w/each) for the results to be meaningful at all.


For 100% confidence, sure. But definitely not necessary for our purposes.


----------



## porsche965

What test saws would be the best to use?


----------



## porsche965

I wonder if any oil manufacturers would sponsor a saw?


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> What test saws would be the best to use?


It would need to be a saw that's easy to disassemble and inspect/repair.


----------



## KenJax Tree

porsche965 said:


> I wonder if any oil manufacturers would sponsor a saw?




I doubt it, they sponsor motorsports and don't care about how well their oil works in chain saws.


----------



## Trx250r180

Clamshell stihl ,could have a bunch of engines with cranks ready to go .


----------



## blsnelling

Is there a cost effective, decent quality topend for the 353/346? It makes high RPMs, desirable for this test IMHO. A test saw should be easy to come up with.

Wait a minute. I have a basket case partial 372 waiting to be rebuilt. Bearings are cheap for it. Would be an interesting test on the rod bearing yoo! How about a cheap reliable topend for it?


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> Clamshell stihl ,could have a bunch of engines with cranks ready to go .


Too troublesome to disassemble multiple times for inspection and repairs.


----------



## KG441c

Pro model saw is easier to disassemble. I can have the clylinder off a 440 in less than 5 minutes


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Pro model saw is easier to disassemble. I can have the clylinder off a 440 in less than 5 minutes


Exactly. I'll donate this 372 to the cause if we can raise support for a few topend kits.


----------



## KG441c

Aftermarket cylinder kits for a 440 can be got as low as 30$


----------



## blsnelling

I don't have a project 440. Whatever topend is used needs to be of decent quality, while staying cheap.


----------



## MustangMike

Brian, before joining this site, I used both those bottles at 50:1 for years, w/o incident, and my old 044 still runs very well.


----------



## KG441c

No aftermarket from vostore on ebay!! The quality is terrible!!


----------



## KG441c

Brad im not sure if this guy has 372 cylinders but I used this kit the other day and it was suprisingly a decent cylinder http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=321548318694&alt=web


----------



## KG441c

Brad ill spring for a top end if we find them in the 30 to 40 range


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> unless you are planning on running the saws at 100:1 permanently, the only information you are going to get is which oil lasts the longest at 100:1. The most relevant data is going to be at the conditions for normal operation.
> 
> 
> and do you tune them to the max WOT RPM ...tune will change with each oil.
> 
> I say run em at 40:1


It's called boundary testing. We're looking for the limits that a given oil can protect to. I would tune to factory RPMs.

All of these oils are going to give superb results at 40:1. You'll never have an oil failure *with proper tuning* at 40:1. I'm interested in knowing what oil gives the best protection in a catastrophic event, such as an air leak or too lean tuning. This test should provide that data.

If you would like, I will start a different thread on this. I don't want to clutter up your thread too much.


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> Pro model saw is easier to disassemble. I can have the clylinder off a 440 in less than 5 minutes


What about the crank bearings ?


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> What about the crank bearings ?


Splitting the cases r a different story. With a clamshell the motor comes out as a unit where a pro model u gotta split the cases seperately.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> It's called boundary testing. We're looking for the limits that a given oil can protect to. I would tune to factory RPMs.
> 
> All of these oils are going to give superb results at 40:1. You'll never have an oil failure *with proper tuning* at 40:1. I'm interested in knowing what oil gives the best protection in a catastrophic event, such as an air leak or too lean tuning. This test should provide that data.
> 
> If you would like, I will start a different thread on this. I don't want to clutter up your thread too much.




nah man this great stuff! Great points as well. I think it would be better to have the most information in one place.


----------



## blsnelling

372 crank bearing are only about $12 for the pair. Of course there's the possibility of blowing out the big end rod bearing. I'm willing to take that risk. I'm actually quite interested to see how it holds up.


----------



## Trx250r180

MustangMike said:


> Brian, before joining this site, I used both those bottles at 50:1 for years, w/o incident, and my old 044 still runs very well.


Exactly ,You should see the clapped out saw run in the woods here still ,run every day ,day in day out on the orange bottle 50 to 1 ,and are still running .They are stock saws ,maybe a muffler mod at best though .In a modded saw things are different .I found out the hard way .


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Is there a cost effective, decent quality topend for the 353/346? It makes high RPMs, desirable for this test IMHO. A test saw should be easy to come up with.
> 
> Wait a minute. I have a basket case partial 372 waiting to be rebuilt. Bearings are cheap for it. Would be an interesting test on the rod bearing yoo! How about a cheap reliable topend for it?



I can get 372 top ends for 35.00

I'd propose an 80:1 mix.......


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> I can get 372 top ends for 35.00
> 
> I'd propose an 80:1 mix.......


Fantastic! Decent enough quality that we could decidedly blame the failure on the mix?

What are your thoughts on this test? How would you do it? Why 80:1? Do you think it will fail there or not? We eventually have to find were a particular oil fails, and then test other oils just below that point. Then if it didn't fail, use less oil until it does. I'm all ears. I've never done anything like this.


----------



## Mastermind

I'll toss it around while I piddle today. 

I'll check in again later.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> nah man this great stuff! Great points as well. I think it would be better to have the most information in one place.


When is the 660 test Bull?


----------



## Mastermind

We need a way to load the engine. 

A fan maybe?


----------



## KG441c

The mother of oil threads!!


----------



## Trx250r180

I bet 80 to 1 you will go through a lot of tanks of fuel with no failures


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> hoping tomorrow. there is a sea of amish over at this farm today building a barn so today while perfect - is a total no go.


Good deal! Anxious to see it


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> hoping tomorrow. there is a sea of amish over at this farm today building a barn so today while perfect - is a total no go.


R u near Lancaster?


----------



## KG441c

Oh sorry Redbull I see u r in Wisconsin and not PA. I was gonna ask if u knew Merlin or Levi off Amish Mafia!!! Lol!!


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> We need a way to load the engine.
> 
> A fan maybe?


I thought about that. I can't think of any way to do that. I do know that a saw can get plenty hot running WOT with no load, especially with the cylinder cover off.


----------



## Mastermind

Frying it from heat is different than from a load though. 

Grab Chad's dyno.......meet me in a few hours.


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> Oh sorry Redbull I see u r in Wisconsin and not PA. I was gonna ask if u knew Merlin or Levi off Amish Mafia!!! Lol!!



only Mafia here is me!


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> only Mafia here is me!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Im just thinkin out loud but if the port , rings, and mufller r staying alil wet the wet oil isnt gonna turn into carbon is it? Wouldnt it be the burnt depoists that form buildup or the burnt depoists with the oil together?


The wet oil builds up, then the muffler or port gets hot enough for a short period of time for some reason..viola carbon.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I have at least 50 tanks of R50 through this @ 32:1 since the end of last summer. I aint the only one throwing up actual pictures that were taken from saws that get used, and I havent seen anything even close to what you are saying that we will see.


Given it time. You already have discoloration below the rings..


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> Frying it from heat is different than from a load though.
> 
> Grab Chad's dyno.......meet me in a few hours.


Assuming it's the topend that fails, it's heat that will cause that, regardless of load. Load will cause the saw to generate more heat. As long as the saw reaches a temp capable of exceeding the protection factor of the oil, I don't see that it matters how that heat is generated.


----------



## cuttinties

Mastermind said:


> We need a way to load the engine.
> 
> A fan maybe?


Bicycle


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> I have at least 50 tanks of R50 through this @ 32:1 since the end of last summer. I aint the only one throwing up actual pictures that were taken from saws that get used, and I havent seen anything even close to what you are saying that we will see.





bwalker said:


> Given it time. You already have discoloration below the rings..


This is too funny
I can get confused in my old age .......................... are you BA ?


----------



## RedFir Down

blsnelling said:


> 372 crank bearing are only about $12 for the pair. Of course there's the possibility of blowing out the big end rod bearing. I'm willing to take that risk. I'm actually quite interested to see how it holds up.



Brad, I have an idea.
Since a new OEM crank assembly (I couldn't find a bare crank) is around $225 and since we are torture testing after market parts her for the sake of oil. 
I think it would be wise for you to save your good OEM crank. My cost at weedeaterman is $64 for an aftermarket crank. I would be willing to pay half. I could even call Henry to see if he could help us out with our R&D project.

What do you say?


----------



## Trx250r180

would a chainsaw winch load it enough ?


----------



## Moparmyway

Nobody has a few mini-macs for this ??

Each one of us can take them apart in 5 minutes

Give me an address and mine will be on its way


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Assuming it's the topend that fails, it's heat that will cause that, regardless of load. Load will cause the saw to generate more heat. As long as the saw reaches a temp capable of exceeding the protection factor of the oil, I don't see that it matters how that heat is generated.


Free revving a saw doesn't load it hard or make it run hot at all unless your carb tuning is off. However you might run into issues exceeding it's redline rpm.


----------



## bwalker

And 


Moparmyway said:


> This is too funny
> I can get confused in my old age .......................... are you BA ?


50 tanks isn't much.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> And
> 
> 50 tanks isn't much.


We saw pictures of a dozen tanks make the top of a piston look like burned pepperoni pizza


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> We saw pictures of a dozen tanks make the top of a piston look like burned pepperoni pizza


Which pic are you referring too?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Free revving a saw doesn't load it hard or make it run hot at all unless your carb tuning is off. However you might run into issues exceeding it's redline rpm.


I would tune to factory RPM before beginning the test.


----------



## KenJax Tree

How close is factory RPM to being a good tune? I've never really paid much attention to it.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Which pic are you referring too?


http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-7#post-5295950


----------



## gunnusmc03

Who built the Rpd?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> And Andy, if your blowing unburnt oil out the muffler your leaching heat and hp out if the combustion chamber. Its likely you will have deposits sooner or latter in the exhaust port from the unburnt oil accumulating. Potentially the same issue with the ring grooves on the exhaust side of the piston.


Zero buildup, the oil washes everything. Now power, yes you likely lose combination efficiency.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Zero buildup, the oil washes everything. Now power, yes you likely lose combination efficiency.


Thats what I was thinkin


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-7#post-5295950


Why does that piston look bad to you?


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Zero buildup, the oil washes everything. Now power, yes you likely lose combination efficiency.


Yea, but it doesn't wash everything. There are dead spaces with no flow along the surface of the exhaust port and around the ring grooves. Plus it's insane to blow all that oil out the exhaust. Makes a real mess.


----------



## bwalker

BTW 2R uses toluene as a diluent.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> BTW 2R uses toluene as a diluent.


Whats yamaha ringfree? Techron?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Whats yamaha ringfree? Techron?


Have no idea as I have never had the need to use such a product.


----------



## bwalker

I use to run approximately 30 two stroke outboards ranging in size from 6-25 hp. Typically after two season of commercial use they would start to feel like they where loosing power when ran at 100:1 on Yamaha outboard oil. For grins I started using esso syn blend outboard oil at 50:1 and after two seasons they were still running good.
Doesn't mean much just an observation.
And these motors where ran more than most people ran an outboard in 5 lifetimes.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Have no idea as I have never had the need to use such a product.


It will clean very well. That toluene is a strong solvent! Probably really good for ones neurological system when inhaled?


----------



## Mastermind

I never drink toluene.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> It will clean very well. That toluene is a strong solvent! Probably really good for ones neurological system when inhaled?


I have used mercury power tune with good results on Lawnboy mowers which are very prone to carbon build up.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I never drink toluene.


My grandpa was a tool and die maker by trade and ran small shop of his own. I remember him washing is hands with toluole which is toluene and xylene. He did this for years in addition to smoking Winston like candy and drinking hard. Ended up dieing of basicly old age


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> It will clean very well. That toluene is a strong solvent! Probably really good for ones neurological system when inhaled?


I have used mercury power tune with good results on Lawnboy mowers which are very prone to carbon build up.
The problem with removing carbon is solvents typical don't work. Solvents work by breaking down oils or fats. Carbon if it's baked on like the crown of a piston has very little oil in it.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I have used mercury power tune with good results on Lawnboy mowers which are very prone to carbon build up.
> The problem with removing carbon is solvents typical don't work. Solvents work by breaking down oils or fats. Carbon if it's baked on like the crown of a piston has very little oil in it.


Never used the powertune but I used the omc tuner and the omc carbon guard. Both worked well


----------



## KG441c

Yamaha ringfree works good to cleanup and prevent carbon in the stihl 4 mix valve system


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> My grandpa was a tool and die maker by trade and ran small shop of his own. I remember him washing is hands with toluole which is toluene and xylene. He did this for years in addition to smoking Winston like candy and drinking hard. Ended up dieing of basicly old age



My dad painted cars, smoked, drank, and chased skirts........he died when I was 18.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> I will when I have the time.


Not to point anything out here but you are clearly reading all the postings on this thread and also written at least 2 pages of replies yet you still havent found the time to put forward your reasons?


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Not to point anything out here but you are clearly reading all the postings on this thread and also written at least 2 pages of replies yet you still havent found the time to put forward your reasons?


Honestly I have forgotten. What is it that you would like to know?


----------



## blsnelling

Everything you know


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said: ↑
Dominator actually isn't too bad and I detest the Amsoil conpany.. I like 2R and have used it alot. I would try K2 as others I trust like it. NOT SURE ON baileys or silkolene. Would not run r50, h1r or 800.


Please more of a break down, this IS the time to be long winded. You have a very strong opinion on this topic, and I believe a lot of people would like to hear why and how you've made your decisions.


----------



## bwalker

We would have a novel. How about narrowing it down to why I like 2R?


----------



## Flatie

blsnelling said:


> BWalker, break it down for us, oil by oil. Andre, I'd like to see your opinions as well.
> 
> 
> Belray H1-R
> Motul 800 2T
> Amsoil Dominator
> Klotz R50
> Maxima K2
> Silkolene Pro 2
> Yamalube 2R
> Bailey's Full Synthetic


This list is a great one for you start on walker!


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said: ↑
Would not run r50, h1r or 800.
Why?

Ok then start with this.. A lot of guys run these.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> This list is a great one for you start on walker!


I haven't ran them all but I'd put 2r, then K2 at the top. Would not run 800, h1r or R50 in saw.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> I haven't ran them all but I'd put 2r, then K2 at the top. Would not run 800, h1r or R50 in saw.


I like 2R because it has a track record in very demanding applications, applications much tougher than a saw, going back to the early 80's. It's available from any Yamaha dealer for between $8 and $12 per quart, which is an excellant value. If your carb tuning is on it burns very clean. I have seen Kt-100 karts ran on it at 16:1 with c-12 and the looked perfect with no discoloration below the rings, no metalic deposits on the crown and no build up in the exhaust port or pipe. It uses toluene as a diluent so you don't have the problem of introducing low octane diluent into a motor where the cause deposits and loss of octane. It also has great protection against rust which most ester oils do not. This is important to me as my saws sometimes sit in a humid climate. It will also withstand more heat and stress than a saw can thow at it and has a long track record doing so yet still burn clean.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I like 2R because it has a track record in very demanding applications, applications much tougher than a saw, going back to the early 80's. It's available from any Yamaha dealer for between $8 and $12 per quart, which is an excellant value. If your carb tuning is on it burns very clean. I have seen Kt-100 karts ran on it at 16:1 with c-12 and the looked perfect with no discoloration below the rings, no metalic deposits on the crown and no build up in the exhaust port or pipe. It uses toluene as a diluent so you don't have the problem of introducing low octane diluent into a motor where the cause deposits and loss of octane. It also has great protection against rust which most ester oils do not. This is important to me as my saws sometimes sit in a humid climate. It will also withstand more heat and stress than a saw can thow at it and has a long track record doing so yet still burn clean.


Why not the esters?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Why not the esters?


What are you referring to?


----------



## KG441c

Why dont u like r50,h1r, 800t?


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> I haven't ran them all but I'd put 2r, then K2 at the top. Would not run 800, h1r or R50 in saw.



Why not 800, h1r? I think you're kind of saying why but please be specific


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> bwalker said: ↑
> Would not run r50, h1r or 800.
> Why?
> 
> Ok then start with this.. A lot of guys run these.


Because they offer little to no corrosion protection, they burn dirty and they aren't needed in a saw application so why bother with them given the above mentioned . 800 is good oil in other higher stressed applications, H1R is pretty bad IME and r50 is somewhere in between.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Why does that piston look bad to you?


Because I said so. Because others said so. We went over that piston in the first few pages of this thread
Because its black and crusty after 13 tanks and mine looks new after 50 tanks
I grow tired of your riddled answers ......... why not just answer a question directly ?

I got it now Brush Ape


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Why dont u like r50,h1r, 800t?


See the comment I made above.
I don't have a problem with esters per se as MX2T was a ester oil and one of the best two cycle oils ever produced. I have also used and liked Motorex, which i believe to be ester based.However esters are not the be all and end all of two cycle lubrication. In fact you see more PIB and mineral blends that are actually ISO-.EGD certified.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Because I said so. Because others said so. Because its black and crusty after 13 tanks and mine looks new after 50 tanks
> I grow tired of your riddled answers ......... why not just answer a question directly ?


Let's see a pic of yours?
The piston doesn't look too bad. Looks like it was ran a little lean that's all.


----------



## blsnelling

Where is evidence and documentation of this? Dirty burning it's in direct conflict with everything I've read of them.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Where is evidence and documentation of this? Dirty burning it's in direct conflict with everything I've read of them.


Brad, I have seen it with my own eyes and I have posted pics.. your a smart guy think about why a oil that has a very high end point, may not burn clean..
And your probably reading mostly regurgitated marketing. They all say they burn clean, but many don't, even in applications much tougher than saws.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Let's see a pic of yours?


Already posted one


----------



## bwalker

One other thing. You know that mx2t is good stuff because I introduced it too this site years ago. You know redline causes corrosion issues because I discovered them after it first came out years ago.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Brad, I have seen it with my own eyes and I have posted pics.. your a smart guy think about why a oil that has a very high end point, may not burn clean..
> And your probably reading mostly regurgitated marketing. They all say they burn clean, but many don't, even in applications much tougher than saws.


Most of what I'm reading is in forums and 3rd party testing. The problem is that most all of it is in engines with much higher BMP. There is simply nothing out there for our application. We're all wierdos, lol.

Define dirty burning. Crown, CC, skirts, bottom of crown, transfers, exhaust port, or what?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Most of what I'm reading is in forums and 3rd party testing. The problem is that most all of it is in engines with much higher BMP. There is simply nothing out there for our application. We're all wierdos, lol.
> 
> Define dirty burning. Crown, CC, skirts, bottom of crown, transfers, exhaust port, or what?


Those things along with blowing all the oil out the exhaust.


----------



## KenJax Tree

No posts in over an hour?? C'mon slackers[emoji3]


----------



## KG441c




----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Because they offer little to no corrosion protection, they burn dirty and they aren't needed in a saw application so why bother with them given the above mentioned . 800 is good oil in other higher stressed applications, H1R is pretty bad IME and r50 is somewhere in between.




esters burn dirty. omg LMAO!!!!!!!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> esters burn dirty. omg LMAO!!!!!!!


Clearly reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points.


----------



## KG441c




----------



## CR500

Anyone think if running a castor based oil at 40:1 would keep things a tad cleaner? Just wondering is all.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Because they offer little to no corrosion protection, they burn dirty and they aren't needed in a saw application so why bother with them given the above mentioned . 800 is good oil in other higher stressed applications, H1R is pretty bad IME and r50 is somewhere in between.





Adirondackstihl said:


> I run VP w/ 800 2T @ 32:1 and I couldn't be any happier. No build up.
> Nice film of oil on everything internal.
> I was actually just inside one of my old 044's this weekend that I know I had personally ran a minimum of 5gal through. Top of the piston was almost as shiny as the day I installed it.
> Little tiny bit of so called carbon at the exhaust side. I'll post a pic
> 
> The one on the right has seen approx 6-7 gallons of fuel. At least 5 of which was Motul & VP @ 32:1



I never have seen any pictures of a dirty piston run on these ester oils. The only one i've ever seen was "yours" .... these 800 pistons look "new". It just doesn't make sense.


----------



## Moparmyway

Flatie said:


> I never have seen any pictures of a dirty piston run on these ester oils. The only one i've ever seen was "yours" .... these 800 pistons look "new". It just doesn't make sense.


EXACTELY ...............

and add to that; the pictures that have been posted here of actual work saw innards that were basically spotless (not just mine either) which were run with 800, R50, and H1R


----------



## aokpops

I done the 32 to 1 had oil every were on the muffler . Seen most motor fail from carbon build up remember carbon is dirt . There is a point were it becomes a 4 cycle an over filling the crankcase. Don't over fill the dip stick your just blowing oil.


----------



## Ron660

I also use Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 in a ported saw with over 210psi. Everything internal is super clean and always has a nice film of oil. 
I'd never use less oil in my ported saw than 32:1 (3.125% oil).


----------



## Marshy

Flatie said:


> I never have seen any pictures of a dirty piston run on these ester oils. The only one i've ever seen was "yours" .... these 800 pistons look "new". It just doesn't make sense.


IDK, those pistons just dont have the run time on them yet to get the carbon build up. IMO you guys are not comparing apples to apples regarding the "cleanness" of these oils based on the buildup on the pistons. They need significantly more run time to make that determination. The only way you'll keep your piston lookin like one of those in that picture is if its kept REALY rich. The leaner the f/a ratio the more carbon on the piston top. Ideally you would have a small "wash" spot on the top about the size of your pinky finger nail or smaller. 5 gal of gas might not be enough run time to get the carbon build up on the piston. I've put over 25 gallons through my sled on a new top end and it just started showing carbon shadow on the dome.


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> IDK, those pistons just dont have the run time on them yet to get the carbon build up. IMO you guys are not comparing apples to apples regarding the "cleanness" of these oils based on the buildup on the pistons. They need significantly more run time to make that determination. 5 gal of gas might not be enough run time to get the carbon build up on the piston.



12 tanks for this pic below

View attachment 416182


Over 5 gallons on this one below.







Disagreeing with multiple experienced members who are putting up pictures from around the country of many different saw innards is "normal"  ......... BUT I don't think you or Bwalker have convinced anyone to make a change from the oils that have been pictured (H1R, 800, R50, Lucas, K2) ........... Mastermind, mdavlee, Trx250, and many others have posted pictures (many times) of what they find inside when they look in saws. M-Tronic and Autotune saws are included in some of them, so it aint "the tune" being rich that's causing us to put up such clean looking guts.

I humbly challenge you or Bwalker to show pics of actual work saws that were run with any of the oils that most of us are saying is great (H1R, 800, R50, K2, lucas) which support your position. It should be easy for you two to get the owners of those saws to verify the pics (like Maulhead and Randy did) so we can choke on our feet as we try to remove them from our mouths .................... until then, I can only go by the insides of my own saws and the pictures of those that I have learned to trust


----------



## redbull660

some more back n forth

Redbull says -

So let's say hypothetically the performance (times & temps) are all pretty equal between H1R and the others out there. (obviously it's not or stihl would have performed better on the temp readings in my test)

So what sets them apart then is the protection factor?? So what makes H1R better than the others as far as protection?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray says -

The biggest difference between H1-R and the competitors is the base fluid used. *It is, as advertised, a 100% full synthetic ester.* Which means there are no fillers or carrier fluids other than the ester which, as well as carrying the additives, is very functional itself. Even among other ester based fluids, some of them only contain a portion of esters, and there are still many various types of esters even within the field of esters! The types of ester that we use, which unfortunately are proprietary, are *extremely good at preventing wear, burn remarkably clean even compared to other esters and have great detergency for removing any buildup. *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

I want to ask this question again... "H1R does seem to burn clean, but it changes the combustion properties of the fuel mix, you have to open up the jets quite a bit to compensate.....

Why does H1R require more fuel than most other 2T oils?

Your first answer was -
"Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The *H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents*, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

The solvent answer to why the H1-R typically uses more fuel has just always been accepted by us because it makes the most logical sense. Perhaps there is another and better answer to the question, but so far, we haven't come up with anything that fits otherwise.

I’d be interested to hear someone else’s take on it, but I would be incredibly surprised if it was due to anything regarding the flash point of the oil. Remember, there is only a thin film of oil in the cylinder which makes for a very small total volume. To measure flash point we take about 1 standard cup of oil to get enough vapor to cause it to combust according to the standard method. So the oil vapors that combust, are probably on the scale of micrograms. Maybe it has a much bigger effect than we’ve thought, but to me it seems far fetched. The high content of highly combustible solvents common in a lot of other oils makes much more sense to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

On the message board we are having a discussion about oils. Out of this list - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

We are primarily looking at R50, H1R, 800, 927, K2, and yamalube 2R. From what I can find these are the make ups of those oils...

Klotz R50 - No info, 
*Motul 800 - Pure Ester, No Solvent.
Belray H1R - Pure Ester, No Solvent.*
Maxima 927 - Castor and ester , No solvent.
Maxima K2 - Ester, polybutene polymer and solvent, 10% solvent
Yamalube 2R - Petroleum Oil. ~20% Solvent.


So out of that list the only pure ester, no solvents are 800 and H1R ?
Do you have any info on R50?
Do any of the oils on that link contain ester?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Belray says -

Yes on 800 and H1R.

I do not see any available public data, giving that information on R50.

Some of them do contain esters but none of them are full ester (except H1R & 800) without solvent or some mix of petroleum oil.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

You said earlier that - "Ester, burns very cleanly...residue left behind after burning this type of fluid is almost negligible. Petroleum and some other types of synthetic oils will leave carbon deposits and ash when burned."

I see some of these have Ester and other bases in them...

-------------------------------------------------------------
Belray -

not every ester burns super clean. There are certainly ones that may leave some residues, but for the most part they are cleaner than petroleum, PAO synthetics and polybutene polymers.

---------------------------------------
Redbull says -

IIRC someone said the other type of oil that required opening of the jets had castor in it. Is caster another type of synthetic? Why would it require opening of the jets? Is it thicker? So does H1R have castor in it?

--------------------------------------------------
Belray -

Castor oil is a plant based bio sourced oil. I really don’t know much about it other than that it has a few qualities, but a lot of bad qualities. The bad ones include poor solubility, high resin content, and bad low temperature properties.

H1R is pure ester. No solvents. It does *not* have any castor in it.

---------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

why does h1r have a great film strength if the viscosity 100c is only 12.4 ?

------------------------------------
Belray -

The type of ester that is used has a very high polarity so it has a strong bond to metal surfaces, and because of its high stability, it remains intact in high pressure contact points.

----------------------------------


----------



## mdavlee

Motul 800 off road can be used to -54° according to their engineers I spoke to back in the winter when I was planning to go cut and it was in the single digits. I'm thinking pour point is probably the lowest temperature it will be able to mix in gas.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm still reading along waiting for someone to say why H1R is not a great oil.

I've read that it is not........but have read no reasons.

It's time to explain maybe?


----------



## bwalker

Keep wallowing in stupidity...


----------



## Mastermind

Really?


----------



## Roll Tide

So what's so wrong with Stihl Ultra? I've ran it in all my saws and they seem to have great coating of oil internally at 40:1.


----------



## Mastermind

Roll Tide said:


> So what's so wrong with Stihl Ultra? I've ran it in all my saws and they seem to have great coating of oil internally at 40:1.



Nothing is *wrong* with it. It protects very well from what I've seen. 

I have seen plastic like buildup on the piston crown from it though.


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> Keep wallowing in stupidity...



Is that your way of saying you don't have any real answers, just opinions?


----------



## Roll Tide

Mastermind said:


> Nothing is *wrong* with it. It protects very well from what I've seen.
> 
> I have seen plastic like buildup on the piston crown from it though.


Eww I dont like the way that sounds!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Maybe it really is plastic...it smells like burning plastic


----------



## Mastermind

Yes it stinks.


----------



## KG441c

Marshy said:


> IDK, those pistons just dont have the run time on them yet to get the carbon build up. IMO you guys are not comparing apples to apples regarding the "cleanness" of these oils based on the buildup on the pistons. They need significantly more run time to make that determination. The only way you'll keep your piston lookin like one of those in that picture is if its kept REALY rich. The leaner the f/a ratio the more carbon on the piston top. Ideally you would have a small "wash" spot on the top about the size of your pinky finger nail or smaller. 5 gal of gas might not be enough run time to get the carbon build up on the piston. I've put over 25 gallons through my sled on a new top end and it just started showing carbon shadow on the dome.


Ya I think u will get that with any oil over some time. I dont cut enough firewood to give an opinion here but I see alota saws that have been run and do know some oils will start to soot up the top of the piston within a few tanks. 800t or h1r have never done that with me. Amsoil saber and 927 and ultra will for me


----------



## Roll Tide

Where can I find H1R​


----------



## redbull660

I bought a Liter (1.05 quart) of H1R on ebay for like $20 shipped. came right to my door 

I plan to run it about 40 to 45:1 that is where my test showed the best performance on my stock 661. 

So the liter bottle of H1R would make about 10-12 gallons


----------



## mdavlee

Rocky mountain atv is where I buy about once a year. Over 99 is free shipping.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> I bought a Liter (1.05 quart) of H1R on ebay for like $20 shipped. came right to my door
> 
> I plan to run it about 40 to 45:1 that is where my test showed the best performance on my stock 661.
> 
> So the liter bottle of H1R would make about 10-12 gallons


Ive seen on ebay:
h1r $20.18 per l
800t $ 23.54 per l
r50 $14.08 per l
Yamalube r2 11.16 per l


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Really?


That was in refer a to Mopar and red bull.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Is that your way of saying you don't have any real answers, just opinions?


You are not going to get any science on this subject for the most part, just tribal knowledge which you have to sort through. The problem is most people here don't want to listen nor have the knowledge or the ambition to do what it takes to learn, they just want argue to fit there pre conseved notions.


----------



## Roll Tide

bwalker said:


> You are not going to get any science on this subject for the most part, just tribal knowledge which you have to sort through. The problem is most people here don't want to listen, the just want argue to fit there pre conseved notions.


And if its not in line with you than is completely wrong it seems.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> You are not going to get any science on this subject for the most part, just tribal knowledge which you have to sort through. The problem is most people here don't want to listen, the just want argue to fit there pre conseved notions.


Well I think the problem here is most people feel u have no evidence other than your personal use of some of these oils ? You seem very smart and knowledgeable but what makes us believe your word or opinion over anyone else opinions? There are alota folks that have probably seen as many or more internals and different oils used than you on this site? What is your accreditation and certifications to be the autority on the subject here? No disrespect here because you are way over my head in the subject but I think folks need an explanation and anwser to your opinions and certifications


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> And if its not in line with you than is completely wrong it seems.


That's not true at all, but I would challenge you to find one thing I have said that is technically wrong..


----------



## Roll Tide

From what many others have said it seems you may be a bit wrong on H1R but would you admit if you were?


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> That's not true at all, but I would challenge you to find one thing I have said that is technically wrong..



you said ester burns dirty. I do not know how more azz backwards you could get then that. 

Ester is as pure as it gets and burns the CLEANEST of all the synthetic variants out there.


----------



## Roll Tide

redbull660 said:


> you said ester burns dirty. I do not know how more azz backwards you could get then that.
> 
> Ester is as pure as it gets and burns the CLEANEST of all the synthetic variants out there.


And that my friend is a fact


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> you said ester burns dirty. I do not know how more azz backwards you could get then that.
> 
> Ester is as pure as it gets and burns the CLEANEST of all the synthetic variants out there.


Frankly your completely wrong and making a complete blanket statement. How clean an oil combusts is influenced by its end point and the manner that it chemicaly breaks down when exposed to heat. Castor for instance polymerization when exposed to high heat and essentially turns into a grease. PIB unzips in the same conditions and combusts cleanly. Esters largely function the same way. The factor you are not considering is the fact that while esters do in fact combust cleanly with minimal residue,they still have to be designed such that there end point is matched to the design of the engine. A ester oil that combusts cleanly at 1000 degrees will only partially combust at 800,numbers are just hypothetical btw..
I know this doesn't fit with your childish more is better mentality, but it's the truth.
And 2r doesn't have 20% solvent. More like 10%, which isn't a bad thing..
And for the tenth time. Mobil.MX2t was an ester oil and I liked it alot. Wish I could still get it. So I have nothing against them, I just am not blinded by marketing speak.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Fair enough. I have a BS degree in a unrelated field, I worked for several years in R&D for a automotive mfg company, I currently work in a management capacity pertaining to the operation of GE turbine generators, I have had technical training in tribology, CBM, vibration and acoustic analysis. I have also raced two stroke snowmobiles motor cycles and have worked with a friend racing kt-100 and cr-125 based shifter karts. I took years researching this subject, reading guys like Bell, Blair, Jennings and luring over SAE papers. I was also mentored by a couple guys who I won't mention their names on the internet. One of which designed an oil and race fuel for Phillips 66 that was Taylor ed to Shifter karts. one of the other guys was a mechanic and engine buikder for a multi time world 500cc go champion.


Impressive! U have my respect!! Lol!!


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> And that my friend is a fact


And that there is telling... telling how little you engage your brain.


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> You are not going to get any science on this subject for the most part, just tribal knowledge which you have to sort through. The problem is most people here don't want to listen nor have the knowledge or the ambition to do what it takes to learn, they just want argue to fit there pre conseved notions.



Fair enough. 

I'd have to agree with what you've said here. 

I really would like to hear what it is about H1R that you dislike so much. 

That's the one thing I'm asking about more than any other. 

Please?


----------



## KG441c

Maybe we all need some lessons on brain engagements Walker!! Lol!!!! U may need to lecture on that subject instead of oil


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I'd have to agree with what you've said here.
> 
> I really would like to hear what it is about H1R that you dislike so much.
> 
> That's the one thing I'm asking about more than any other.
> 
> Please?


Its dirty and it inhibits combustion.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Maybe we all need some lessons on brain engagements Walker!! Lol!!!! U may need to lecture on that subject instead of oil


Not all, but quit a few..


----------



## Mastermind

I've not seen where it's dirty......but there's a lot I've yet to see. 

So, it's lack of combustible solvents is why you dislike it, but Motul 800 also has no solvents. Do you dislike it as well?


----------



## KG441c

H1r 32:1 2000hrs!!!! Lol jus kiddin


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Its dirty and it inhibits combustion.


I had this discussion with the tech at Maxima about k2. He said the same about the higher flashpt hendering combustion hence producing less energy. Said the lower flashpt in k2 allowed more efficient and complete combustion


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> I had this discussion with the tech at Maxima about k2. He said the same about the higher flashpt hendering combustion hence producing less energy. Said the lower flashpt in k2 allowed more efficient and complete combustion


You guys are going to make me test this theory. I have a 266, 272, 046, 7900, and 390 here. I have enough oil to test h1r, k2, 800, 927, super techniplate, and maybe even original. I finished off the whole quart of R50. Wish I had a day to kill and my VP gas was here.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I've not seen where it's dirty......but there's a lot I've yet to see.
> 
> So, it's lack of combustible solvents is why you dislike it, but Motul 800 also has no solvents. Do you dislike it as well?


It really has nothing to with solvents. Solvents, as long as they are the right type and quality make no differance.
MOTUL 800 is a great oil for a different application, ie a shifter kart..
MOTUL 710 would be a better choice for a saw IMO.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I had this discussion with the tech at Maxima about k2. He said the same about the higher flashpt hendering combustion hence producing less energy. Said the lower flashpt in k2 allowed more efficient and complete combustion


That's absolutely true and made even worse if your tuning is on the rich side.


----------



## Mastermind

I've been running Mobil 2T for the last month........I mixed the last of it yesterday. 

2R is next.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> It really has nothing to with solvents. Solvents, as long as they are the right type and quality make no differance.
> MOTUL 800 is a great oil for a different application, ie a shifter kart..
> MOTUL 710 would be a better choice for a saw IMO.


I've ran 710. I bought a half liter and mixed it up with 4 gallons of mix back when I was cutting a lot more. The price turned me away from it.


----------



## funky sawman

Im stihl running STIHL ultra, not a lick of problems with it I can find HMMMMM ran it for 2 years of full time timber felling with a ms460 and a 044, piston skirts were still clean


----------



## wigglesworth

bwalker said:


> And for the tenth time. Mobil.MX2t was an ester oil and I liked it alot. Wish I could still get it. So I have nothing against them, I just am not blinded by marketing speak.



Mobil1 2T was the best oil I've ever used. Lots of lubrication, even at 50:1, and very little to no carbon build up. I almost cried when I used my last quart. 

I have only skimmed this thread, but has there been any talk of lubrication qualities or lack of?

What about bearing failures, crank failures or piston failures?

Or is all this over a bologna saw oil test?

Can anyone summarize this thread, so I don't have to read a bazillion pages?


----------



## super3

mdavlee said:


> Rocky mountain atv is where I buy about once a year. Over 99 is free shipping.



I used them also. This place has had better prices for the past several yrs.


http://www.theoilhub.com/toh_two_stroke_motor_oil&page=2


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## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Never used the powertune but I used the omc tuner and the omc carbon guard. Both worked well





bwalker said:


> It really has nothing to with solvents. Solvents, as long as they are the right type and quality make no differance.
> MOTUL 800 is a great oil for a different application, ie a shifter kart..
> MOTUL 710 would be a better choice for a saw IMO.


VP Racing use Motul 710 in their 2-cycle premix cans w/94 octane best I remember. That oil has a very similar viscosity as Stihl HP Ultra at 100C. It's actually cheaper than the Stihl premix cans with hp ultra.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> That's absolutely true and made even worse if your tuning is on the rich side.


I had brought this up in a previous oil thread and made the statement the tech had told me but no one was much interested!!! Lol!!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I had brought this up in a previous oil thread and made the statement the tech had told me but no one was much interested!!! Lol!!


It doesn't really fit the more is better mantra of some here.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> It doesn't really fit the more is better mantra of some here.


Okay here is my next question . I do believe the lower flashpoint oil will combust more readily and burn off better but do they offer the protection that the ester higher flashpoints do? Film strength vs scuff and wear resistant differences between them?


----------



## bwalker

H1R is also a old oil. I was using the stuff in the early 90's and I see no evidence that the formula has changed much. That is, it has stated pretty mediocre. 2r is a old oil also, but they got that right a long time ago.
BTW back in the 90's when outboards exhausting oil into the water was a big deal. Several companies came up with biodegrade oil. All were ester based from what I saw. Interesting given the lack of corrosion protection many exhibit.


----------



## MustangMike

wigglesworth said:


> Mobil1 2T was the best oil I've ever used. Lots of lubrication, even at 50:1, and very little to no carbon build up. I almost cried when I used my last quart.
> 
> I have only skimmed this thread, but has there been any talk of lubrication qualities or lack of?
> 
> What about bearing failures, crank failures or piston failures?
> 
> Or is all this over a bologna saw oil test?
> 
> Can anyone summarize this thread, so I don't have to read a bazillion pages?




CONFUSION!!!!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Okay here is my next question . I do believe the lower flashpoint oil will combust more readily and burn off better but do they offer the protection that the ester higher flashpoints do? Film strength vs scuff and wear resistant differences between them?


If you never reach the point were they burn off in a saw application does it matter? And I am not talking in the combustion chamber. I am talking in the ring land area, between the piston skirt and cylinder wall, etc.
With that said said oils like K2 and 2r contain PIB which does a great job of preventing scuffing. Scuff resistance is largely a component of the viscosity and viscosity index of a lubricant, and in a blended oil each component could be different.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> please tell us, why h1r inhibits combustion?


I am not sure and really don't care. I just know it does from expiereance.
And the no solvent argument causing it is bunk as I have ran straight castor and it hasn't done the same thing. Ditto with other straight ester oils.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> If you never reach the point were they burn off in a saw application does it matter? And I am not talking in the combustion chamber. I am talking in the ring land area, between the piston skirt and cylinder wall, etc.
> With that said said oils like K2 and 2r contain PIB which does a great job of preventing scuffing. Scuff resistance is largely a component of the viscosity and viscosity index of a lubricant, and in a blended oil each component could be different.


Okay k2 [email protected] is like 13.8 and motul,h1r, r50 r all around 18 to 20?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Okay k2 [email protected] is like 13.8 and motul,h1r, r50 r all around 18 to 20?


That's of the complete product. It doesn't tell you what viscosity it's PIB is or what Viscosity it's ester component is.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> That's of the complete product. It doesn't tell you what viscosity it's PIB is or what Viscosity it's ester component is.


I suspect that K2 uses a light, pretty clean burning ester with PIB as a anti scuff/ performance additive.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I am not sure and really don't care. I just know it does from expiereance.
> And the no solvent argument causing it is bunk as I have ran straight castor and it hasn't done the same thing. Ditto with other straight ester oils.




I've had it. Arguing with you is a waste of time. You know your right no matter what. You provide zero evidence. You have nothing...NOTHING but conjecture, hearsay, rudeness, name calling, and azz backwards logic.


Fact - Stihl Ultra = designed for saws. The flash point is 432F.

Fact - flash point is very relevant....


The *flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup*. The H1-R should give you a much cleaner burn and result in far less buildup than the Stihl oil. The biggest factor in this is the base fluid. *Because H1-R is made with all ester base fluids it burns very cleanly*. The residue left behind after burning this type of fluid is almost negligible when actually burned *where petroleum and some other types of synthetic oils will leave carbon deposits and ash when burned.

The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*



The only oils that have flash points close to the Stihl ultra WHICH was DESIGNED around a chainsaw is H1R and 927.

927 has castor in it- caster sucks.

H1R is pure ester with out solvents. - So there is actually more oil by volume to do the same job as a oil with solvents in it. I've come to conclude that is why in my test, less h1R produced faster times and cooler and more consistent jug temps. 

Pure ester/ester only base = burns cleanest - That is why Randy has had success with it.

Guys the flash point alone should have you only considering 927 or h1r. Why you would want to run a lower flash than stihl ultra is beyond me. 

I'll post my results on the 660 and 661 temps/oil test. But I'm done posting for now.

I invite you to read through this - there is a lot of awesome non biased info. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I am not sure and really don't care. I just know it does from expiereance.
> And the no solvent argument causing it is bunk as I have ran straight castor and it hasn't done the same thing. Ditto with other straight ester oils.


Was this your experience in the dirt bikes ? Or with saws ?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I suspect that K2 uses a light, pretty clean burning ester with PIB as a anti scuff/ performance additive.


So the PIB is actually modifying viscosity to make up for the lower flashpoints?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I've had it. Arguing with you is a waste of time. You know your right no matter what. You provide zero evidence. You have nothing...NOTHING but conjecture, hearsay, rudeness, name calling, and azz backwards logic.
> 
> 
> Fact - Stihl Ultra = designed for saws. The flash point is 432F.
> 
> Fact - flash point is very relevant....
> 
> 
> The *flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup*. The H1-R should give you a much cleaner burn and result in far less buildup than the Stihl oil. The biggest factor in this is the base fluid. *Because H1-R is made with all ester base fluids it burns very cleanly*. The residue left behind after burning this type of fluid is almost negligible when actually burned *where petroleum and some other types of synthetic oils will leave carbon deposits and ash when burned.
> 
> The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*
> 
> 
> 
> The only oils that have flash points close to the Stihl ultra WHICH was DESIGNED around a chainsaw is H1R and 927.
> 
> 927 has castor in it- caster sucks.
> 
> H1R is pure ester with out solvents. - So there is actually more oil by volume to do the same job as a oil with solvents in it. I've come to conclude that is why in my test, less h1R produced faster times and cooler and more consistent jug temps.
> 
> Pure ester/ester only base = burns cleanest - That is why Randy has had success with it.
> 
> Guys the flash point alone should have you only considering 927 or h1r. Why you would want to run a lower flash than stihl ultra is beyond me.
> 
> I'll post my results on the 660 and 661 temps/oil test. But I'm done posting for now.
> 
> I invite you to read through this - there is a lot of awesome non biased info.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420


Do you even know why flash point is listed on a MSDS? Do you know what exactly it measures? 
I will give you a hint. Not what your saying it does.
Even if it did your logic is still fubared and by a long shot.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> So the PIB is actually modifying viscosity to make up for the lower flashpoints?


What I am saying is most oils are blends made up of various components. Each may have different vsucosities. As such using the viscosity of the blend to extrapolate is flawed.
PIB is a high viscosity anti scuff additive.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Do you even know why flash point is listed on a MSDS? Do you know what exactly it measures?
> I will give you a hint. Not what your saying it does.
> Even if it did your logic is still fubared and by a long shot.


Ill take a guess. Its a measure of where the oil will flash and evaporate and no protection is available?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> What I am saying is most oils are blends made up of various components. Each may have different vsucosities. As such using the viscosity of the blend to extrapolate is flawed.
> PIB is a high viscosity anti scuff additive.


Is ester considered a PIB?


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> What I am saying is most oils are blends made up of various components. Each may have different vsucosities. As such using the viscosity of the blend to extrapolate is flawed.
> PIB is a high viscosity anti scuff additive.


And forget flash point. It's useless for what we are discussing and it basicly just tells you the minimum temp that the lowest boiling point component ignites when it is exposed to an open flame. It's only useful for storage and shipping purposes and that's why it's listed on a MSDS. It gives you zero insite into what temp the highest boiling point component component combusts.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ill take a guess. Its a measure of where the oil will flash and evaporate and no protection is available?


That would be completely false.. The flash point test is ran by placing a sample in a open metal cup. It is heated with a heating element while a open flame is in close proximity. When the vapors given off by the sample are ignited by the open flame this is the flashpoint. So essentially it measures the temp at which the lowest boiling point component flashes and nothing else. This is typically the diluent and really you want your diluent to flash at low temps for several reasons.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> I had this discussion with the tech at Maxima about k2. He said the same about the higher flashpt hendering combustion hence producing less energy. Said the lower flashpt in k2 allowed more efficient and complete combustion


The 2-cycle oils I've seen that's sold for "chainsaw" use have lower viscosity values at 100C (usually in the 7-9 cSt range). Will an oil that has a greater viscosity value at 100C (12-19cSt) protect better like Mutol 800, Belray H1R, and Klotz R50? I'd say yes. There's a reason these types of oils are needed in racing applications. But will these racing oils give better performance in ported chainsaws compared to the "chainsaw" oils? The only way to determine that is to conduct field tests comparing both types of oils at different fuel/oil mix ratios like 32:1 or leaner. Which ones give us the fastest speeds cutting? Redbull660 is on the right track with his tests. I personally will choose protection and clean internal parts over a possible increase in performance. I'm not racing anyone in the woods cutting firewood. I'm using a modified chainsaw turning more rpms in the cut than a stock saw so I'll keep using racing oils.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Do you even know why flash point is listed on a MSDS? Do you know what exactly it measures?
> I will give you a hint. Not what your saying it does.
> Even if it did your logic is still fubared and by a long shot.



you've posted over 200 times on this thread. Zero evidence on any of them. Don't you have anything better to do?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Is ester considered a PIB?


No. PIB= Poly ISO Butene


----------



## KG441c

Ill go out on a limb and say k2, saber, 927, yamalube will be faster in the cut than h1r,800t, and r50


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> The 2-cycle oils I've seen that's sold for "chainsaw" use have lower viscosity values at 100C (usually in the 7-9 cSt range). Will an oil that has a greater viscosity value at 100C (12-19cSt) protect better like Mutol 800, Belray H1R, and Klotz R50? I'd say yes. There's a reason these types of oils are needed in racing applications. But will these racing oils give better performance in ported chainsaws compared to the "chainsaw" oils? The only way to determine that is to conduct field tests comparing both types of oils at different fuel/oil mix ratios like 32:1 or leaner. Which ones give us the fastest speeds cutting? Redbull660 is on the right track with his tests. I personally will choose protection and clean internal parts over a possible increase in performance. I'm not racing anyone in the woods cutting firewood. I'm using a modified chainsaw turning more rpms in the cut than a stock saw so I'll keep using racing oils.


You will never realize their advantages on a low stressed application like a saw,even a ported one,but you will deal with their downsides if you use them.
Don't assume that the viscosity of a blended product is uniform. Most are made up of various viscosity fluids.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ill go out on a limb and say k2, saber, 927, yamalube will be faster in the cut than h1r,800t, and r50


I would go out on a limb and say you will see no differance that can't be accounted for by variables.


----------



## KG441c

I would also guess the ester race oils will only protect better in the most severe conditions where they r needed


----------



## cuttinties

$10 for 32oz







Ms 460 mixed 32:1 for the last 2 years. 






Oh and it doesn't stink


Also the way a saw is run will dictate build up on the crown from what I've seen. Idle time is a big factor. Argue until you're blue in the face. All a guy needs to really concern himself with is good tune, good chain and a clean air filter. Whether you run 32:1 or 50:1 if you can't do those 3 basic things your saws life will be shortened. If you're not as good at those things as you think you should be use more oil. But it only gives you a little wiggle room, it's not going to save you.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> you've posted over 200 times on this thread. Zero evidence on any of them. Don't you have anything better to do?


Its absolutely true. Research how the test is ran and it's exactly as I posted.. the fact you can't grasp this is telling..


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> $10 for 32oz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ms 460 mixed 32:1 for the last 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and it doesn't stink
> 
> 
> Also the way a saw is run will dictate build up on the crown from what I've seen. Idle time is a big factor. Argue until you're blue in the face. All a guy needs to really concern himself with is good tune, good chain and a clean air filter. Whether you run 32:1 or 50:1 if you can't do those 3 basic things your saws life will be shortened. If you're not as good at those things as you think you should be use more oil. But it only gives you a little wiggle room, it's not going to save you.


A picture of a crank doesn't tell you anything. What's the piston and exhaust port look like.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Its absolutely true. Research how the test is ran and it's exactly as I posted.. the fact you can't grasp this is telling..



Think I've finally got er figured out!

- none of this actually matters

- none of the testing done or that will be done or that could be done even matters because of all the variables 

- you've posted 200+ times telling us we're stupid and or wrong

Ok I'm not worthy! 


all hail bwalker and yami lube 2r!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I would also guess the ester race oils will only protect better in the most severe conditions where they r needed


True, and even the most bad asset piped race saw isn't that application.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You will never realize their advantages on a low stressed application like a saw,even a ported one,but you will deal with their downsides if you use them.
> Don't assume that the viscosity of a blended product is uniform. Most are made up of various viscosity fluids.


I'm only evaluating oil data produced by lab testing using standardized methods. Those are factual comparisons between different oils with no variables. The only variables are the different oils.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Think I've finally got er figured out!
> 
> - none of this actually matters
> 
> - none of the testing done or that will be done or that could be done even matters because of all the variables
> 
> - you've posted 200+ times telling us we're stupid and or wrong
> 
> Ok I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> all hail bwalker and yami lube 2r!


It matters. And yes it's true your testing sucks and is a waste of time.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm only evaluating oil data produced by lab testing using standardized methods. Those are factual comparisons between different oils with no variables. The only variables are the different oils.


They are factual comparisons of the finished viscosity of a blended product. They are not indicative of what happens inside a motor do the various components of said blend.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> A picture of a crank doesn't tell you anything. What's the piston and exhaust port look like.


You can kinda see the squish band. I don't have any pictures of the exhaust port. And it's only had a tank through it since I put it back together. So taking a picture now won't tell you anything


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> It matters. And yes it's true your testing sucks and is a waste of time.


I disagree. Testing several timed cuts of an oil against another oil at the same oil mix ratio give you a factual conclusion. If the data is repeatable which the same outcome.


----------



## cuttinties

Here's one I just pulled the muffler off of for you. This paticular saw has been tuned to 17,200 running the oil above at 32:1 with a piston that's 26 years old with no air filter


----------



## cuttinties

Here's the plug


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> They are factual comparisons of the finished viscosity of a blended product. They are not indicative of what happens inside a motor do the various components of said blend.[
> When comparative photos are posted and experienced AS Members state their saws, top end and lower end, are lasting longer with racing oils I'll take their word.


----------



## cuttinties

Here's the piston


----------



## bwalker

Most of them have very little run time on them as they are hobbyists.
And expiereance AS members. I have been here longer than most on this thread and have more expiereance with all kinds of two cycles to boot.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Here's the piston


Hard to tell from your pics.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Hard to tell from your pics.


If you can't see the aluminum it's because you're not looking. I'll tear the saw down if I have to. All it does is go fast.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> Think I've finally got er figured out!
> 
> - none of this actually matters
> 
> - none of the testing done or that will be done or that could be done even matters because of all the variables
> 
> - you've posted 200+ times telling us we're stupid and or wrong
> 
> Ok I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> all hail bwalker and yami lube 2r!


Lol!! Easy Bull!!!


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> Think I've finally got er figured out!
> 
> - none of this actually matters
> 
> - none of the testing done or that will be done or that could be done even matters because of all the variables
> 
> - you've posted 200+ times telling us we're stupid and or wrong
> 
> Ok I'm not worthy!
> 
> 
> all hail bwalker and yami lube 2r!


I'd race him for a coke. My cheap Lucas oil 32:1 and my piddly old saw vs whatever he has with his yamihammy astroglide

I just did a compression test it's only blowing 145lbs.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> If you can't see the aluminum it's because you're not looking. I'll tear the saw down if I have to. All it does is go fast.


If it's bare metal your either too rich or haven't ran very long.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> If it's bare metal your either too rich or haven't ran very long.


That saw has had about 3 gallons through it. And it doesn't idle very long and makes 3 cuts at a time. How many saws have you ever heard tuned rich at 17,200?


----------



## cuttinties

Further more to show he has no real information. That saw is tuned to the ragged edge. I built it to blow up and it hasn't done it yet. I'll make a video here after lunch to give you an idea of what I mean by ragged edge.


----------



## cuttinties

A well scavenging 2 stroke will have wash marks on the crown. This saw makes power from scavenging because it's so low compression it has to.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> That saw has had about 3 gallons through it. And it doesn't idle very long and makes 3 cuts at a time. How many saws have you ever heard tuned rich at 17,200?


The rpm they tune at is a function of port timing...


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> A well scavenging 2 stroke will have wash marks on the crown. This saw makes power from scavenging because it's so low compression it has to.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> The rpm they tune at is a function of port timing...


How much money do you want to bet me that I'll prove you wrong on that ?


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> A well scavenging 2 stroke will have wash marks on the crown. This saw makes power from scavenging because it's so low compression it has to.


If you say so..


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> cuttinties - your wasting your time with this guy


It's only a waste of time if I have something better to do haha


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Most of them have very little run time on them as they are hobbyists.
> And expiereance AS members. I have been here longer than most on this thread and have more expiereance with all kinds of two cycles to boot.


Would you recommend racing oils like H1R and Motul 800's for Hot saws?


----------



## Trx250r180

cuttinties said:


> Here's the piston


I can't see anything


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Most of them have very little run time on them as they are hobbyists.
> And expiereance AS members. I have been here longer than most on this thread and have more expiereance with all kinds of two cycles to boot.


If you're so knowledgeable please show us some of your work oil god. Mr.Iwasherefirstandthatmakesmeright


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> How much money do you want to bet me that I'll prove you wrong on that ?


How.much you got?
I could build an engine that reved to 20K , and not be lean in the least..


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> How.much you got?
> I could build an engine that reved to 20K , and not be lean in the least..


You said that it depends on port timing. But if you want to build it and we can race.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> You said that it depends on port timing. But if you want to build it and we can race.


It does.. you can lean out a boat motor all day long and it won't hit any were near that.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> It does.. you can lean out a boat motor all day long and it won't hit any were near that.


You think you can get 17k out of durations lower than 155?


----------



## Sagetown

redbull660 said:


> you've posted over 200 times on this thread. Zero evidence on any of them. Don't you have anything better to do?


Red; your inquiry convinced me to change oils, and all I have are stock saws. I'm using Lucas right now. When it's all gone these two just came in the mail, and I'll go with them. H1-R looks to be a lil more oily than does the 800. 
Thanks again for your endeavors.


----------



## KenJax Tree

This is my choice...if i want cheap, clean burning, and readily available on a Sunday, or if i want an ester based full synthetic oil that IME burns the cleanest in MY saws.




You guys are NUCKIN' FUTS


----------



## nk14zp

bwalker said:


> Please explain your theory on compression displacing oil?


My theory on it is. More compression= more bearing load witch=less oil wedge in bearing cage/race and rollers/balls.


----------



## cuttinties

In all seriousness I don't really care about any of the hoopla here. I'm not bothered by certain people's opinions either. I'm really just poking at bwalker because he's yet to state his qualifications beyond being on AS since 2002. If he were qualified and could provide proof of building saws his thoughts may carry more than 6 pages of posts.


----------



## nk14zp

Mastermind said:


> It is my understanding that AV gas is for planes only.......
> 
> But much of what I thought I knew is coming unraveled.


So should the AV gas be used in saws that fly?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Those things along with blowing all the oil out the exhaust.


Then why are none of us experiencing this? It's contrary to everything these oils are built to do.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> I'm still reading along waiting for someone to say why H1R is not a great oil.
> 
> I've read that it is not........but have read no reasons.
> 
> It's time to explain maybe?


No one can. It's one of the best oils on the planet. I think I've settled, for now lol, on 800 2T, H1-R, and Mobile 1 2T if I can get some. I've got a friend trying to hook me up. Obviously, money is not in the equation for using these oils. For someone that's burning a LOT of fuel, I MIGHT choose a different oil. That oil might well be something like Yamalube 2R or Baileys Full Synthetic. They are fantastic oils, but I simply cannot believe that they are superior to these others. Needed? Maybe not. Better? Absolutely.


----------



## Ron660

Greater film strength means more protection. H1R, Motul 800's, and R50 have those qualities. Their Spec sheet data means something. Also, my muffler never has oily residual in it. I'm tuned to 13.5K and pushing over 210psi in a 90cc saw. When I look inside my cylinder there's a difference with Motul 800 off-road and Stihl hp ultra. I'll stay with Motul. I'm sure H1R and R50 are excellent also.


----------



## Hedgerow

Say it ain't so brother!!!


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair

Somebody a page back ask. I wouldnt use any of these oils in a hotsaw.


----------



## cuttinties

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Somebody a page back ask. I wouldnt use any of these oils in a hotsaw. [emoji38]


They don't mix so well with methanol [emoji41]


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair

Race or work 1 oil for me Klotz KL-200. If you run alky race or work with ethanol gas. Stays mixed no separation I have ever seen yet. 

http://www.klotzlube.com/ecommerce/CatalogSearch.aspx?Searchstr=kl-200&SCID=-1


----------



## cuttinties

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Race or work 1 oil for me Klotz KL-200. If you run alky race or work with ethanol gas. Stays mixed no separation I have ever seen yet.
> 
> http://www.klotzlube.com/ecommerce/CatalogSearch.aspx?Searchstr=kl-200&SCID=-1


And it smells good.




Note kids please don't sniff the methanol or the nitromethane.............it's not exactly healthy[emoji16]


----------



## mdavlee

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Race or work 1 oil for me Klotz KL-200. If you run alky race or work with ethanol gas. Stays mixed no separation I have ever seen yet.
> 
> http://www.klotzlube.com/ecommerce/CatalogSearch.aspx?Searchstr=kl-200&SCID=-1


I think I'm about done chasing oils. Be back to KL 200 soon. I have a partial quart of k2 and partial quart of 800. I have some super here just to run and smell.


----------



## sunfish




----------



## Andyshine77

Ron660 said:


> VP Racing use Motul 710 in their 2-cycle premix cans w/94 octane best I remember. That oil has a very similar viscosity as Stihl HP Ultra at 100C. It's actually cheaper than the Stihl premix cans with hp ultra.



They use a version of 800 in their 50:1 fuel and 710 in the 40:1 fuel. I have both and the smell between the two are very distinct.


----------



## Hedgerow

What oil is used in tru-fuel??

I always wondered..

It smells unique..


----------



## wigglesworth

Hedgerow said:


> What oil is used in tru-fuel??
> 
> I always wondered..
> 
> It smells unique..


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Most of them have very little run time on them as they are hobbyists.
> And expiereance AS members. I have been here longer than most on this thread and have more expiereance with all kinds of two cycles to boot.



You've said nothing definitive, you've backtracked and said this analysis has errors, yet you didn't say what.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...DF3QVJLeDRrbExmSGhsc1FlWFdueHc&hl=en_US#gid=0

You have knowledge that is not in question, but I'm not sure you understand it fully, which is why they're so many holes in your responses. To me you come off a bit like ST. You rely on what you read and base your conclusions on this and state it as fact, which it is not not.

I've ran a few different oils as well. Most of the mix I use every year is in my blowers and trimmers however. I've never seen rust, and many of my saws sit a year at a time, never had any carbon issues " other than Klotz SuperTech", never had oil separate. This is why I often simply suggest running any of the trusted brands that are available locally. Some of us like to try different oils just because.

Take your pick. Brad if you want to buy some of what you see in the pic, just let me know. I think I have enough 2T oil for the next 5 years or so.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> You you've said nothing definitive, you've backtracked and said this analysis has errors, yet you didn't say what.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...DF3QVJLeDRrbExmSGhsc1FlWFdueHc&hl=en_US#gid=0
> 
> You have knowledge that is not in question, but I'm not sure you understand it fully, which is why they're so many holes in your responses. To me you come off a bit like ST. You rely on what you read and base your conclusions on this and state it as fact, which it is not not.
> 
> I've ran a few different oils as well. Most of the mix I use every year is in my blowers and trimmers however. I've never seen rust, and many of my saws sit a year at a time, never had any carbon issues " other than Klotz SuperTech", never had oil separate. This is why I often simply suggest running any of the trusted brands that are available locally. Some of us like to try different oils just because.
> 
> Take your pick. Brad if you want to buy some of what you see in the pic, just let me know. I think I have enough 2T oil for the next 5 years or so.
> 
> View attachment 418665


Andre how do u like the r50?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I can take a pic like that too Andre[emoji3] i have way too much oil


----------



## Andyshine77

Love it!! I saw almost zero wear with R50.


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> I can take a pic like that too Andre[emoji3] i have way too much oil



I have issues.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Love it!! I saw almost zero wear with R50.


Mdavlee said the same.


----------



## Andyshine77

Hedgerow said:


> What oil is used in tru-fuel??
> 
> I always wondered..
> 
> It smells unique..



Oops I was talking about TrueFuel, but if I remember correctly VP uses the same oil.


----------



## CR500

That is how my oil "stock" looks as well lol.
Yes we have issues. Kind of want another bike so I can study on a bigger scale.

Was never into this oil studying until recently, shame I have no bike.

Big fan of R50 Andre I take it? Lol

Nothing more reassuring than oil clinging to a skirt like the pic you posted. Bet the crankcase looked pleasing....
Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Andyshine77

Okay I was wrong. We have issues.


----------



## Mastermind

I when and crawled in a sweatlodge, with some good friends and some very hot rocks.

Oil......meh.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Okay I was wrong. We have issues.


I'm right there with you. I used most all of those oils as well. Me likes oil, lol.


----------



## Hedgerow

wigglesworth said:


>


Koala squeezin's???!!!



Won't let any of dat **** near my saws from now on...


----------



## MustangMike

Reading this thread makes me think I'm on a Star Trek mission "In search of intelligent life". Now don't get me wrong, it is not that I don't think that a lot of intelligent people have posted here, it is just that the resulting posts just don't really reflect it.

Let the testing continue!


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> You've said nothing definitive, you've backtracked and said this analysis has errors, yet you didn't say what.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...DF3QVJLeDRrbExmSGhsc1FlWFdueHc&hl=en_US#gid=0
> 
> You have knowledge that is not in question, but I'm not sure you understand it fully, which is why they're so many holes in your responses. To me you come off a bit like ST. You rely on what you read and base your conclusions on this and state it as fact, which it is not not.
> 
> I've ran a few different oils as well. Most of the mix I use every year is in my blowers and trimmers however. I've never seen rust, and many of my saws sit a year at a time, never had any carbon issues " other than Klotz SuperTech", never had oil separate. This is why I often simply suggest running any of the trusted brands that are available locally. Some of us like to try different oils just because.
> 
> Take your pick. Brad if you want to buy some of what you see in the pic, just let me know. I think I have enough 2T oil for the next 5 years or so.
> 
> View attachment 418665


I haven't back tracked on anything..
The list really doesn't tell you anything and it has factual errors. For instance I know a fact that the legend oils are not Jason certified, because I know the owner, have tested motors with him in the spring up here and he has built me several motors. There are other errors as well.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I haven't back tracked on anything..
> The list really doesn't tell you anything and it has factual errors. For instance I know a fact that the legend oils are not Jason certified, because I know the owner, have tested motors with him in the spring up here and he has built me several motors. There are other errors as well.



Excellent. What are the other errors?


----------



## Roll Tide

Mastermind said:


> I when and crawled in a sweatlodge, with some good friends and some very hot rocks.
> 
> Oil......meh.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Excellent. What are the other errors?


It doesn't list the methodology used. The rpm limits are a joke, etc.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> It doesn't list the methodology used. The rpm limits are a joke, etc.



How the hell do you know this as fact??


----------



## Roll Tide

bwalker said:


> It doesn't list the methodology used. The rpm limits are a joke, etc.





Andyshine77 said:


> How the hell do you know this as fact??


Cause he knows that guy too and designed a better oil for him...duh haha


----------



## Ron660

Sagetown said:


> Red; your inquiry convinced me to change oils, and all I have are stock saws. I'm using Lucas right now. When it's all gone these two just came in the mail, and I'll go with them. H1-R looks to be a lil
> 
> 
> MustangMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reading this thread makes me think I'm on a Star Trek mission "In search of intelligent life". Now don't get me wrong, it is not that I don't think that a lot of intelligent people have posted here, it is just that the resulting posts just don't really reflect it.
> 
> Let the testing continue!
> 
> 
> 
> Oils with the highest numbers at 100C will give you the most protection. But that doesn't mean they'll be the best performers in your saw if your goal is more speed. Also, this doesn't tell us how clean they'll be inside our engines. That's more related to their additive packages and detergents. I'd bet the two Motul 800 oils (off-road & road racing) have the same base/stock oil only different additive packages to achieve whatever goal or application it's intended for. Motul 800 road racing has a higher viscosity at 100C compared to 800 off-road because it's designed for more continuous high rpms rather than on-and-off rpms like Motocross (800 off-road oil).
Click to expand...


----------



## scallywag

I switched to Motul 800 about a year ago on the advice of someone that knows more about saws than myself. I've been paying $43.00 aud per litre for the stuff!
If running Motul @ 32:1 is doing my saws harm I'd really like to know why!......Please!


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> They use a version of 800 in their 50:1 fuel and 710 in the 40:1 fuel. I have both and the smell between the two are very distinct.


Hi Andre',
I have the VP 50:1 SEF, its blue and to my big old beak, I could easily make the same smell as 50:1 when I mix their 4 cycle SEF with Lucas. To me 800 smells a little different. May I ask where did you get info that said VP was using Motul in their 50:1 ? Its pretty accepted that their red 40:1 is running 710, but I havent read anything definitive about that 50:1


----------



## Moparmyway

scallywag said:


> If running Motul @ 32:1 is doing my saws harm I'd really like to know why!......Please!


Because he said so .............. there - that answers every question I ever had, thread closed, discussion over.   

Seriousely, 800 is good stuff, and it has cleaned away most of the buildup from the combustion chambers in the engines I ran it in. Nice oily drips everywhere inside, it dont even foul out plugs. 

IMHO, you really cant get much better - equal, yes .......... but better, nope


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> I think I'm about done chasing oils. Be back to KL 200 soon.




Thats just GREAT ............. now I gotta go and get some KL200 .............. youre killin my wallet bud !! 

**EDIT** isnt this the stuff that coats the tops of pistons if idled frequently ?


----------



## Pud

Bwalker i need to know what makes u think a chainsaw engine is a low stress enviroment or whatever u wrote ?
Because they dont make the power of similar size motocross engines ?


----------



## nk14zp

nk14zp said:


> So should the AV gas be used in saws that fly?


I should be asking Brad this.


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair

I just wondered do you guys fuss about which brand and type of oil you use in your cars and trucks every oil change? Like you do over a 2 stroke mix . 
Been using the same brand oil for those last 35 years in my cars and trucks.


----------



## Hedgerow

JeremiahJohnson said:


> I just wondered do you guys fuss about which brand and type of oil you use in your cars and trucks every oil change? Like you do over a 2 stroke mix .
> Been using the same brand oil for those last 35 years in my cars and trucks.


Wow, yer gettin old bro... Lol..

But to stay on topic,

Levi and I burnt through another 2.5 gallons of mix yesterday..
The 562 with the bad carb is still alive!!!
Still pretty, blue 40:1 Lucas..

My saws like it cause they get thirsty when working, and it's the closest thing to blue raspberry Gatorade they get to drink.


----------



## wigglesworth

I slept last night. I miss anything? 

Anybody lose a crank or piston yet?

What about a race?


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> Thats just GREAT ............. now I gotta go and get some KL200 .............. youre killin my wallet bud !!
> 
> **EDIT** isnt this the stuff that coats the tops of pistons if idled frequently ?


Super is the bad one. I'm even going to run some of it for the heck of it. I used a gallon of KL 200 back before I found this place. Race guys use it and that's all like Jeremiah Johnson said.


----------



## Sagetown

scallywag said:


> I switched to Motul 800 about a year ago on the advice of someone that knows more about saws than myself. I've been paying $43.00 aud per litre for the stuff!
> If running Motul @ 32:1 is doing my saws harm I'd really like to know why!......Please!


$43 per litre !? Try going thru amazon. Free shipping at $21->$22 per litre here in the USA.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

JeremiahJohnson said:


> I just wondered do you guys fuss about which brand and type of oil you use in your cars and trucks every oil change? Like you do over a 2 stroke mix .
> Been using the same brand oil for those last 35 years in my cars and trucks.




Some of these guys just need to get laid.....


----------



## Mastermind

Repped.


----------



## redbull660

Started breaking in my 2nd 661R - 2 tanks through it, both running belray H1R 45:1.

I know it's only two tanks and the pic isn't that good. (I tried taking about 15 pics and this is the best one I got). But the top of the piston has a light grey/brown tint to it, I can still see the engravings on the top of the piston clearly. No build up at all! My understanding is this is ideal?

Now Stihl ultra on the other hand would already have a black coating. I've broken in 4 660's a 661 and 461 in the last yr so with ultra, so im pretty confident in this statement.







spark plug..


----------



## KG441c

Pud said:


> Bwalker i need to know what makes u think a chainsaw engine is a low stress enviroment or whatever u wrote ?
> Because they dont make the power of similar size motocross engines ?


I already ask that and got tore up by Walker and Brad!!! Lol!!


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> Started breaking in my 2nd 661R - 2 tanks through it, both running belray H1R 45:1.
> 
> I know it's only two tanks and the pic isn't that good. (I tried taking about 15 pics and this is the best one I got). But the top of the piston has a light grey/brown tint to it, I can still see the engravings on the top of the piston clearly. No build up at all! My understanding is this is ideal?
> 
> Now Stihl ultra on the other hand would already have a black coating. I've broken in 4 660's a 661 and 461 in the last yr so with ultra, so im pretty confident in this statement.


No 660 test?


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> No 660 test?



had to do taxes for some people yesterday and the Amish were still busy on the barn. So tomorrow...if weather is nice.

just made up a chain for an upcoming test I've got up my sleeve heheh


----------



## bwalker

Pud said:


> Bwalker i need to know what makes u think a chainsaw engine is a low stress enviroment or whatever u wrote ?
> Because they dont make the power of similar size motocross engines ?


HP per cc is low as is load.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> How the hell do you know this as fact??


First off. How the hell do they know it.
I know it to he false because I have seen some of the oils in question ran at higher rpms..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> had to do taxes for some people yesterday and the Amish were still busy on the barn. So tomorrow...if weather is nice.
> 
> just made up a chain for an upcoming test I've got up my sleeve heheh


Why 404 chain?


----------



## Roll Tide

Are we still talking about these oils being run in chainsaws, or other totally unrelated 2 strokes?


----------



## sunfish

WoodChuck'r said:


> Some of these guys just need to get laid.....


LOL Chuck'r... How ya been, man?


----------



## porsche965

Isn't it nice to have Mtronics adjust everything? I think they are tits!


----------



## sunfish

porsche965 said:


> Isn't it nice to have Mtronics adjust everything? I think they are tits!


I like tits mo better...


----------



## redbull660

Always love me a nice set of Jugs!


----------



## KG441c

Redbull do u think the 660 test will be the same as the 661c?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Why 404 chain?


Cheaper


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Started breaking in my 2nd 661R - 2 tanks through it, both running belray H1R 45:1.
> 
> I know it's only two tanks and the pic isn't that good. (I tried taking about 15 pics and this is the best one I got). But the top of the piston has a light grey/brown tint to it, I can still see the engravings on the top of the piston clearly. No build up at all! My understanding is this is ideal?
> 
> Now Stihl ultra on the other hand would already have a black coating. I've broken in 4 660's a 661 and 461 in the last yr so with ultra, so im pretty confident in this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spark plug..


What's up with all the oil around the spark plug hole?


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Cheaper


Never would have guessed that. Also never seen 404 around here used on a saw. All 3/8 .058


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> Are we still talking about these oils being run in chainsaws, or other totally unrelated 2 strokes?


Are we still talking about oils made for two strokes totally unrelated to chainsaws?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Isn't it nice to have Mtronics adjust everything? I think they are tits!


I agree Mtronic and Auto Tune are a step in the right direction.


----------



## Brianlol

Haywire Haywood said:


> Total waste of time.


Not a waste of time. I run 40:1 high octane and it does leave a little carbon on the piston but I'd rather have that than the ethanol heating up my saw. With 40:1 I know I have oil on my bottom end not think I do with 50:1.
I've replaced scorn Pistons with them run on 50:1. I think this is all do to the constant changes in ethanol percentages in are gas today. I think this is a great test and thank u for doing it.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> What's up with all the oil around the spark plug hole?


I thought you said that you ran H1R ?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I thought you said that you ran H1R ?


I have.. and I have never had that. Course I don't run my plugs loose or reuse them after I have crushed the gasket.


----------



## rjames

Super techniplate is the dirty stuff. Original is the best imo, but nobody stocks it. R50 works great but a no no in lower temps. KL200 original techniplate is the cats meow. You can get a case for around $100. I'm almost out, and may buy a case soon. I'll send you a quart if you want to wait a bit. BTW, that amsoil sabre pro I tried was very unimpressive, I won't use that crap. The kids go cart is burning up the rest as I type this.


Moparmyway said:


> Thats just GREAT ............. now I gotta go and get some KL200 .............. youre killin my wallet bud !!
> 
> **EDIT** isnt this the stuff that coats the tops of pistons if idled frequently ?


----------



## sunfish

You guys are messed up!


----------



## redbull660

checking tune with the belray h1r in 660

if it matters.... 28" bar n chain on. Usual tension and obviously didn't loosen the bar etc when changed gas. Oiler on max. Oil and gas topped off and filter clean.


This is my usual mix of stihl ultra 45:1




Dumped gas out completely. refilled with H1R 45:1. Ran the saw (let it sit on idle for about 5min and then did some WOT. Then topped off oil and gas/h1r 45:1 mix.

Did vid. I did not adjust anything at all. ie. H L or idle or anything else. So this is what it did JUST changing the gas from ultra to H1r.



if you can't see the numbers. Go to youtube and make the video larger.

So to me the idle on the belray seems more consistent and less erratic. And the top end looks about the same.


Maybe the H1R is higher purity ie more actual oil by volume (with out the solvents etc) so therefore you need less of it? I'm not seeing the tuning issue that many experience running H1R - ie. they complain they have to open the jets up a lot.


----------



## Roll Tide

bwalker said:


> Are we still talking about oils made for two strokes totally unrelated to chainsaws?


Your a special kind of *******.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> checking tune with the belray h1r in 660
> 
> if it matters.... 28" bar n chain on. Usual tension and obviously didn't loosen the bar etc when changed gas. Oiler on max. Oil and gas topped off and filter clean.
> 
> 
> This is my usual mix of stihl ultra 45:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumped gas out completely. refilled with H1R 45:1. Ran the saw (let it sit on idle for about 5min and then did some WOT. Then topped off oil and gas/h1r 45:1 mix.
> 
> Did vid. I did not adjust anything at all. ie. H L or idle or anything else. So this is what it did JUST changing the gas from ultra to H1r.
> 
> 
> 
> if you can't see the numbers. Go to youtube and make the video larger.
> 
> So to me the idle on the belray seems more consistent and less erratic. And the top end looks about the same.
> 
> 
> Maybe the H1R is higher purity ie more actual oil by volume (with out the solvents etc) so therefore you need less of it? I'm not seeing the tuning issue that many experience running H1R - ie. they complain they have to open the jets up a lot.



Maybe your not seeing tuning issues because you have a compensating carb?
It's been years since I ran ultra, but I don't recall it being a dirty oil.
Solvents are not an impurity either. They are a deliberate part of the blend and typically are a small percentage of the total product.


----------



## big t double

redbull660 said:


> checking tune with the belray h1r in 660
> 
> if it matters.... 28" bar n chain on. Usual tension and obviously didn't loosen the bar etc when changed gas. Oiler on max. Oil and gas topped off and filter clean.
> 
> 
> This is my usual mix of stihl ultra 45:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumped gas out completely. refilled with H1R 45:1. Ran the saw (let it sit on idle for about 5min and then did some WOT. Then topped off oil and gas/h1r 45:1 mix.
> 
> Did vid. I did not adjust anything at all. ie. H L or idle or anything else. So this is what it did JUST changing the gas from ultra to H1r.
> 
> 
> 
> if you can't see the numbers. Go to youtube and make the video larger.
> 
> So to me the idle on the belray seems more consistent and less erratic. And the top end looks about the same.
> 
> 
> Maybe the H1R is higher purity ie more actual oil by volume (with out the solvents etc) so therefore you need less of it? I'm not seeing the tuning issue that many experience running H1R - ie. they complain they have to open the jets up a lot.



You did it wrong.


----------



## bwalker

Brianlol said:


> Not a waste of time. I run 40:1 high octane and it does leave a little carbon on the piston but I'd rather have that than the ethanol heating up my saw. With 40:1 I know I have oil on my bottom end not think I do with 50:1.
> I've replaced scorn Pistons with them run on 50:1. I think this is all do to the constant changes in ethanol percentages in are gas today. I think this is a great test and thank u for doing it.


Its never a bad thing to run premium.in a two cycle. Same for ethanol free.
All two cycles will accumulate carbon on the crown if they are ran for any length of time. That is unless your so rich your washing the piston clean. Carbon on the piston top doesn't bother me unless it is thick and crusty, has metalic deposits present or extends below the rings. A properly tuned and running two cycle should have a carbon layer with wash spots where the transfers discharge. In fact many people in other sports still tune by piston carbon patterns.


----------



## MustangMike

What did you not like about the Saber oil?


----------



## porsche965

Probably because it said Amsoil on the bottle. No one likes this oil.


----------



## mdavlee

241 piston. Saw is about a year old and owner said probably close to 200 tanks. Said he bought 4 liters of Belray 10 months ago.


----------



## porsche965

Isn't that something. Now what would cause all this carbon? What was his mix ratio?


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> Your a special kind of *******.


As typical you have nothing to add..


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 241 piston. Saw is about a year old and owner said probably close to 200 tanks. Said he bought 4 liters of Belray 10 months ago.
> 
> [A
> 
> 
> mdavlee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 241 piston. Saw is about a year old and owner said probably close to 200 tanks. Said he bought 4 liters of Belray 10 months ago.
> 
> View attachment 418847
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TTACH=full]418847[/ATTACH]
Click to expand...

Pull a pin and buff the heck out of that thang!!!!


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Isn't that something. Now what would cause all this carbon? What was his mix ratio?


Show the skirts.


----------



## rjames

Ran 40:1 in stihl blower and husky 350. Carbon building up after one tank in each. 90 octane efree fuel. Not much idling especially the blower. It may be great stuff but I didn't like the quick buildup. I've never had that with r50 or kl200. Super techniplate, yes. I'm no oil salesman just telling my experience and I'm a klotz guy, it's done very well for me and its affordable. Plus it smells racy, unless you have a nose like hedge's.


MustangMike said:


> What did you not like about the Saber oil?


----------



## KG441c

Bwalker I have a question. Why do the lower flashpoint oils usually have a higher vi value?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Bwalker I have a question. Why do the lower flashpoint oils usually have a higher vi value?


What specific oils are you talking about?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> What specific oils are you talking about?


Motul 710 and Mobil1 2t


----------



## Roll Tide

bwalker said:


> As typical you have nothing to add..


If I did it would be incorrect apparently.


----------



## bwalker

When you look at the most demanding two cycle racing sports like shifter karts, Klotz and Belray have almost zero exposure. Motul is pretty well used.
Just an observation.


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> If I did it would be incorrect apparently.


No doubt about it.


----------



## Roll Tide

bwalker said:


> No doubt about it.


So then Ill ask whats your thoughts on Stihl ultra


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Motul 710 and Mobil1 2t


Both have very high quality base oils. High quality base oils also have high VI. 
Honestly, forget about flash point, it gives very little insite into much of anything other than shipping and storage.


----------



## bwalker

Roll Tide said:


> So then Ill ask whats your thoughts on Stihl ultra


I can't really say. I used it only a few bottles of it that I got when I bought a MS361.
I will say I have typically liked Husky oil better than Stihl. The old orange bottle Stihl was overpriced crap.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Both have very high quality base oils. High quality base oils also have high VI.
> Honestly, forget about flash point, it gives very little insite into much of anything other than shipping and storage.


If looking at specs what do u look at to be important? Vi, [email protected], etc?


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> 241 piston. Saw is about a year old and owner said probably close to 200 tanks. Said he bought 4 liters of Belray 10 months ago.
> 
> View attachment 418847


 H1R?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Never would have guessed that. Also never seen 404 around here used on a saw. All 3/8 .058


Chain cost the same per drive link (until you get into harvester). It takes fewer drive links per .404 chain than 3/8 thus making it cheaper.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> If looking at specs what do u look at to be important? Vi, [email protected], etc?


I typically don't look at the specs at all.
An msds can be somewhat useful in determining what's in the oil, or what the diluent is composed of. However lots of times the components aren't toxic so they won't show up.


----------



## cuttinties

I'm still waiting to hear what his qualifications are when it comes to 2 strokes or saws in general.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> Still pretty, blue 40:1 Lucas..
> 
> My saws like it cause they get thirsty when working, and it's the closest thing to blue raspberry Gatorade they get to drink.


----------



## KenJax Tree

mdavlee said:


> 241 piston. Saw is about a year old and owner said probably close to 200 tanks. Said he bought 4 liters of Belray 10 months ago.
> 
> View attachment 418847


First the 562xp beat the 262xp in Randy's test and now this with H1-R, how much heartache can AS take in one weekend?[emoji23]


----------



## sunfish

Roll Tide said:


> So then Ill ask whats your thoughts on Stihl ultra


I ran a bunch of Stihl Ultra at 40:1 a few years ago and got a lot of carbon build up. Switched to Lucas and all is well. I think Ultra needs to be at 50:1.


----------



## CR500

Just for giggles today I mixed up some R50 to run in the 7900 it was running quite good with H1R 

I go to cut on some ash and what do you know?? I left my little screwdriver at the truck. I was at 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 out with H1R and had to lean out the H in order to not have it continuously 4 stroke in the cut. I have a very slight 4 stroke after re-tuning.

I really need a tach lol


----------



## mdavlee

40:1 H1R


----------



## WoodChuck'r

sunfish said:


> LOL Chuck'r... How ya been, man?



I've been good man - busy as hell, but good. Need to make it down to the midwest again for a GTG. Looks like the ole Wiggz shindig in September might be the one. Should be a rockin' time!


How the heck you been buddeh...??


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> First off. How the hell do they know it.
> I know it to he false because I have seen some of the oils in question ran at higher rpms..



Take it for what it is.

Chemist. 

P#1... I have tested 20 of the top oil's over the summer in my lab, Viscosity, load pressure under r.p.m., metal to metal friction test, oxygen reactivity test, 4 ball wear test, foam control under heat, carbon build up test, And how refined the oil is.

The R.P.M. Unit (machine) was built with a stainless steel piston that run's up to 16,000 r.p.m's, I add E-10 gas into the port hole and add the oil to a 50-1 mix and run it until the database software on the computer tells me at what r.p.m. the oil break's down, It also tells me the viscosity under load pressure, was there any foam under heat and how much carbon build up under heat. The unit gets to a 116 Fahrenheit. I have noticed that with ethanol the carbon build up is very low with all oils, because ethanol is a strong solvent, cleanser, and drying agent. A good synthetic when using E-10 gas is a must, now with Non-ethanol gas the oils will read about 100 to 150 RPM's higher.

tested: Klotz r-50 Techniplate, This oil is all synthetic, and has very small molecules, And it is a thick oil, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 15,579, even though the oil broke down, my test unit stayed at 116f, weird, this is the first time my unit did this, pour point tested at -14f, this oil passed my test.


----------



## Ron660

CR500 said:


> Just for giggles today I mixed up some R50 to run in the 7900 it was running quite good with H1R
> 
> I go to[/QUOTE





CR500 said:


> Just for giggles today I mixed up some R50 to run in the 7900 it was running quite good with H1R
> 
> I go to cut on some ash and what do you know?? I left my little screwdriver at the truck. I was at 1-1/8 to 1-1/4 out with H1R and had to lean out the H in order to not have it continuously 4 stroke in the cut. I have a very slight 4 stroke after re-tuning.
> 
> I really need a tach lol


R50...thicker oil


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Maybe your not seeing tuning issues because you have a compensating carb?


Seriously? All the Stihl Intellicarb compensates for is a dirty air filter. It has no bearing at all on this discussion.


----------



## cuttinties

blsnelling said:


> Seriously? All the Stihl Intellicarb compensates for is a dirty air filter. It has no bearing at all on this discussion.


Hold the phone. Maybe he knows something we don't.........still holding [emoji41]


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> checking tune with the belray h1r in 660
> 
> if it matters.... 28" bar n chain on. Usual tension and obviously didn't loosen the bar etc when changed gas. Oiler on max. Oil and gas topped off and filter clean.
> 
> 
> This is my usual mix of stihl ultra 45:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumped gas out completely. refilled with H1R 45:1. Ran the saw (let it sit on idle for about 5min and then did some WOT. Then topped off oil and gas/h1r 45:1 mix.
> 
> Did vid. I did not adjust anything at all. ie. H L or idle or anything else. So this is what it did JUST changing the gas from ultra to H1r.
> 
> 
> 
> if you can't see the numbers. Go to youtube and make the video larger.
> 
> So to me the idle on the belray seems more consistent and less erratic. And the top end looks about the same.
> 
> 
> Maybe the H1R is higher purity ie more actual oil by volume (with out the solvents etc) so therefore you need less of it? I'm not seeing the tuning issue that many experience running H1R - ie. they complain they have to open the jets up a lot.



Very interesting. I would love to see you do the same thing with 32:1. How much run time was on the saw after switching fuels?


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> 241 piston. Saw is about a year old and owner said probably close to 200 tanks. Said he bought 4 liters of Belray 10 months ago.
> 
> View attachment 418847


It would appear to me that saw runs pig rich to be that wet on the crown.


----------



## CR500

Ron660 said:


> R50...thicker oil


Yes but H1R does have the character to run lean.... waiting on the Motul RR to arrive.

Nice thing about R50 is that I have a few gallons for thr sleds, so it is not goin to waste lol

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## CR888

mdavlee said:


> 40:1 H1R
> View attachment 418864
> 
> 
> View attachment 418865


Very typical after prelonged use of pure full synthetics, l would run a quality mineral base/semi synthetic to clean that up no biggie. But for this reason amoung others l mentioned in a previous post If running full synthetics every so often run a mineral oil to clean up the varnish build up caused by synthetics. lf one does not loss of throttle response and blow by is what follows down the road. These are some of the issues l tried to get out there earlier in this forum. Synthetics are good but not perfect at all. But understanding their characteristics may help users get better results and avoid problems.


----------



## blsnelling

A properly tuned saw would never have a wet crown like that.


----------



## Andyshine77

I agree the crown looked wet. We are also dealing with a strato engine, they run different. IMHO strato engines have wild temperature differentials do to the extra air moving through the system. Try tuning a strato engine real rich and see what happens.


----------



## cuttinties




----------



## Mastermind

KenJax Tree said:


> First the 562xp beat the 262xp in Randy's test and now this with H1-R, how much heartache can AS take in one weekend?[emoji23]



I just thought the 562 won. 

Seat of the pants.....

It was actually third. 

The 359 was first.....262 second.....562 third.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Take it for what it is.
> 
> Chemist.
> 
> P#1... I have tested 20 of the top oil's over the summer in my lab, Viscosity, load pressure under r.p.m., metal to metal friction test, oxygen reactivity test, 4 ball wear test, foam control under heat, carbon build up test, And how refined the oil is.
> 
> The R.P.M. Unit (machine) was built with a stainless steel piston that run's up to 16,000 r.p.m's, I add E-10 gas into the port hole and add the oil to a 50-1 mix and run it until the database software on the computer tells me at what r.p.m. the oil break's down, It also tells me the viscosity under load pressure, was there any foam under heat and how much carbon build up under heat. The unit gets to a 116 Fahrenheit. I have noticed that with ethanol the carbon build up is very low with all oils, because ethanol is a strong solvent, cleanser, and drying agent. A good synthetic when using E-10 gas is a must, now with Non-ethanol gas the oils will read about 100 to 150 RPM's higher.
> 
> tested: Klotz r-50 Techniplate, This oil is all synthetic, and has very small molecules, And it is a thick oil, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 15,579, even though the oil broke down, my test unit stayed at 116f, weird, this is the first time my unit did this, pour point tested at -14f, this oil passed my test.


Glad I ordered r50!! Lol!! What about h1r and 800t? What did they look like Andre?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Klotz makes me nauseous after about 5 minutes the smell gets to me. It smells good at first and then it gets to me.


----------



## KG441c

Chris that guy with the h1r dirty piston needs to use alil Lucas to clean that mess up!!! Lol! I would put a wirewheel to it myself!!!


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Glad I ordered r50!! Lol!! What about h1r and 800t? What did they look like Andre?



The were not tested. I'm sure they would both do well.


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> A properly tuned saw would never have a wet crown like that.


Mtronic at its best. [emoji6]


----------



## porsche965

200 tanks and the 241c piston looks like this? Would Ultra look like this at 200 tanks?

Does any have a guess as to how many more tanks it would take before engine failure would occure?


----------



## Pud

Breaking news.... My 2012 yz450f with muffler mod and actual auto tune has carbon on top of the piston running straight premium unleaded for exactely 52 hours

Also note no pop up flat top or cut squish and still has very high compression


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Chris that guy with the h1r dirty piston needs to use alil Lucas to clean that mess up!!! Lol! I would put a wirewheel to it myself!!!


Yup its good stuff....i feel bad going back to K2[emoji3]


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> 200 tanks and the 241c piston looks like this? Would Ultra look like this at 200 tanks?
> 
> Does any have a guess as to how many more tanks it would take before engine failure would occure?



Guess? sure that's what we've been doing for the most part anyway.

From the looks of it, I would say she'd last a good long while.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> If it's bare metal your either too rich or haven't ran very long.





Moparmyway said:


> 12 tanks for this pic below
> 
> View attachment 416182
> 
> 
> Over 5 gallons on this one below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disagreeing with multiple experienced members who are putting up pictures from around the country of many different saw innards is "normal"  ......... BUT I don't think you or Bwalker have convinced anyone to make a change from the oils that have been pictured (H1R, 800, R50, Lucas, K2) ........... Mastermind, mdavlee, Trx250, and many others have posted pictures (many times) of what they find inside when they look in saws. M-Tronic and Autotune saws are included in some of them, so it aint "the tune" being rich that's causing us to put up such clean looking guts.
> 
> I humbly challenge you or Bwalker to show pics of actual work saws that were run with any of the oils that most of us are saying is great (H1R, 800, R50, K2, lucas) which support your position. It should be easy for you two to get the owners of those saws to verify the pics (like Maulhead and Randy did) so we can choke on our feet as we try to remove them from our mouths .................... until then, I can only go by the insides of my own saws and the pictures of those that I have learned to trust



This engine shouldn't be rich as they were run with autotune i believe, so you're saying with more run time there will be more carbon to see, yes?

Out of H1R or 800 2t which is your preference?
Also the off road or on road motul?


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> 200 tanks and the 241c piston looks like this? Would Ultra look like this at 200 tanks?
> 
> Does any have a guess as to how many more tanks it would take before engine failure would occure?


Maulhead posted a pic of his 661 with ultra after 12 tanks and it looked worse than that


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> 200 tanks and the 241c piston looks like this? Would Ultra look like this at 200 tanks?
> 
> Does any have a guess as to how many more tanks it would take before engine failure would occure?


Actually with that much run time that doesnt look too bad


----------



## Moparmyway

rjames said:


> Super techniplate is the dirty stuff. Original is the best imo, but nobody stocks it. R50 works great but a no no in lower temps. KL200 original techniplate is the cats meow. You can get a case for around $100. I'm almost out, and may buy a case soon. I'll send you a quart if you want to wait a bit. BTW, that amsoil sabre pro I tried was very unimpressive, I won't use that crap. The kids go cart is burning up the rest as I type this.


How could I refuse such an awesome and generous offer ?
I would love to try some, but you have to let me pay you for it, or let me send you some H1R, K2 or Lucas. I have lots of H1R and don't really like it as much as R50 or 800. I have about 2 gallons of Lucas and K2 to try soon, so there is plenty to send ya.

I totally agree with you on that Amsoil .............. 100% !!! (and the rest of the stuff I had went into the tractor)

PM me when you are ready to swap oils again !!!


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> R50...thicker oil


To me, H1R is the thickest of them all
R50 is like 800, with K2 being just a tad thinner


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> Klotz makes me nauseous after about 5 minutes the smell gets to me. It smells good at first and then it gets to me.


I was running VP with R50 in a location with a depression this weekend. Blocked 2 trees and then flush-cut the stumps. It started getting to me too, especially doing the stumps.


----------



## Moparmyway

Flatie said:


> Out of H1R or 800 2t which is your preference?
> Also the off road or on road motul?


If you are asking me, 800 off road.
I have been giving away H1R and adding it to my 4 cycle fuel to try to get rid of it.

Out of R50, 800 off road, and H1R................ I like them in that order.
I still have to really try K2, and Lucas. Havent given either of them much run time yet


----------



## KenJax Tree

Moparmyway said:


> How could I refuse such an awesome and generous offer ?
> I would love to try some, but you have to let me pay you for it, or let me send you some H1R, K2 or Lucas. I have lots of H1R and don't really like it as much as R50 or 800. I have about 2 gallons of Lucas and K2 to try soon, so there is plenty to send ya.
> 
> I totally agree with you on that Amsoil .............. 100% !!! (and the rest of the stuff I had went into the tractor)
> 
> PM me when you are ready to swap oils again !!!


I gave MustangMike 5 bottles of Amsoil Saber i had, i've never used it. What don't you like about it?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I gave MustangMike 5 bottles of Amsoil Saber i had, i've never used it. What don't you like about it?


Dirty


----------



## KenJax Tree

Moparmyway said:


> I still have to really try K2, and Lucas. Havent given either of them much run time yet








KenJax Tree said:


> This is my choice...if i want cheap, clean burning, and readily available on a Sunday, or if i want an ester based full synthetic oil that IME burns the cleanest in MY saws.
> 
> View attachment 418587


----------



## MustangMike

Thanks Chris, got it in the mail today.

Re: AMSOIL Saber ... In the past people posted good things about it, so I switched from Stihl, now everyone seems to hate it. Seems to work well for me, so I'll keep on using it. I've go a decent amount of it, so I'm going to keep using it unless I have problems with it.


----------



## KG441c

MustangMike said:


> Thanks Chris, got it in the mail today.
> 
> Re: AMSOIL Saber ... In the past people posted good things about it, so I switched from Stihl, now everyone seems to hate it. Seems to work well for me, so I'll keep on using it. I've go a decent amount of it, so I'm going to keep using it unless I have problems with it.


No doubt its good oil Mustang! I used it in outboards and bikes. It just burned alil dirty fairly quick for me


----------



## KG441c

Yamaha Ringfree will clean stuff up pretty darn good


----------



## KenJax Tree

MustangMike said:


> Thanks Chris, got it in the mail today.


[emoji106]


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> I gave MustangMike 5 bottles of Amsoil Saber i had, i've never used it. What don't you like about it?


I didn't like the smell it had when mixed with VP and it put a nice black layer on the piston real quickly, and coated the exhaust port with black stuff.

The R50 cleaned it all up pretty quickly on that machine. 800 does the same as far as cleaning from my observations.

You and Hedgerow happen to be the reason I got Lucas, and Brads why I got K2. I have over a gallon of each of them to try out, but they have some stiff competition from 800 and R50.

R50 probably just got moved down a half of a notch due to that low spot I was in this past weekend. It could have been the smell of the tree I was cutting mixed in with the R50 and VP, but the tree smelled like diluted piss and when I cut the stumps, I felt like my nose was overwhelmed with the intensity of the smells. Have to give it one more try on a job with more than 1 tree to be sure. No headache or nausea, just kept spitting to rid myself of that smell


----------



## CR500

Received the 800 Road racing blend today, did not mix any due to a gallon of R50 that needs to be used up first. Lol

I know it is a super small complaint but, it is just something I noticed lol

Motul 800 Off Road has a very pleasant banana/ coconut smell in the bottle. Road Racing...... not so much. Kind has a pungent smell like K2. 

It will be interesting to see how slick it leaves everything inside.

Need more saws....


Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Moparmyway said:


> I didn't like the smell it had when mixed with VP and it put a nice black layer on the piston real quickly, and coated the exhaust port with black stuff.
> 
> The R50 cleaned it all up pretty quickly on that machine. 800 does the same as far as cleaning from my observations.
> 
> You and Hedgerow happen to be the reason I got Lucas, and Brads why I got K2. I have over a gallon of each of them to try out, but they have some stiff competition from 800 and R50.
> 
> R50 probably just got moved down a half of a notch due to that low spot I was in this past weekend. It could have been the smell of the tree I was cutting mixed in with the R50 and VP, but the tree smelled like diluted piss and when I cut the stumps, I felt like my nose was overwhelmed with the intensity of the smells. Have to give it one more try on a job with more than 1 tree to be sure. No headache or nausea, just kept spitting to rid myself of that smell


R50 is ok in a dirt bike or snowmobile but the smell is too much right under your nose in a saw IMO.


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> R50 smell is too much right under your nose in a saw IMO.


I am 1/2 way there ................ I will give it one more shot to be sure though


----------



## mdavlee

K2 doesn't have much smell to it for me. I run a bunch of these oils milling and some days I would burn 2.5 gallons in 10 cuts. R50 wasn't bad with some wind. 800 isn't any worse than k2 in that setting.


----------



## blsnelling

CR500 said:


> Received the 800 Road racing blend today....


My 800 2T Road Racing arrive today as well. I haven't had a chance to open it up yet. I've been busy porting a 346.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> My 800 2T Road Racing arrive today as well. I haven't had a chance to open it up yet. I've been busy porting a 346.


You're going to have goo coming out the exhaust port pretty quickly, and more smoke than what you're use to.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR500 said:


> Received the 800 Road racing blend today, did not mix any due to a gallon of R50 that needs to be used up first. Lol
> 
> I know it is a super small complaint but, it is just something I noticed lol
> 
> Motul 800 Off Road has a very pleasant banana/ coconut smell in the bottle. Road Racing...... not so much. Kind has a pungent smell like K2.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how slick it leaves everything inside.
> 
> Need more saws....
> 
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


The bottle of 800 off road I have smells like chemicals, definitely not anything pleasant. I'm not really a fan of 800 at 32:1 in a saw.


----------



## mdavlee

The recommended mix ratio for 800 off road is 50:1 for Moto cross grand prix and for normal usage it says decrease by .5%.


----------



## redbull660

None of these recommended mix ratios on these various oils were made for chainsaws. 

Seems to me the common sense thing to do, would be to try some different ratios and see what works best.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> You're going to have goo coming out the exhaust port pretty quickly, and more smoke than what you're use to.


It won't be blue will it? Blue goo!!!!!


----------



## ANewSawyer

I see Lucas oil being mentioned and I am curious how it will do. I run Lucas cause I can buy it in bulk locally.

EDIT: Are we talking about the Lucas 2 cycle semi-synthetic oil? Or something else by Lucas?


----------



## rjames

My feeling with the sabre pro is this: they want you to run it at 70 or 100 to 1 ratio. It may burn very clean at that mix, but I just can't run any of my stuff that thin. Just goes against all we've been taught. I'm guessing that at 40 or 50 to 1 it's much stronger and hence the quick carbon buildup. 
My local amsoil guy said he'd fix or buy me a new saw if something broke with the 100:1 mix, but I declined.
I said he could buy a new pro stihl saw and I'd run the snot out of it with his oil at 100:1 and report back, but he wasn't too keen on that suggestion.
I'm not knocking amsoil one bit, just saying it didn't work for me at the normal ratio. It may be awesome stuff at 70 or 100:1 but I'm not gonna be the test monkey with my expensive saw. 
My four cycle snowblower and the kids gocart runs very well on the stuff though.


Moparmyway said:


> I didn't like the smell it had when mixed with VP and it put a nice black layer on the piston real quickly, and coated the exhaust port with black stuff.
> 
> The R50 cleaned it all up pretty quickly on that machine. 800 does the same as far as cleaning from my observations.
> 
> You and Hedgerow happen to be the reason I got Lucas, and Brads why I got K2. I have over a gallon of each of them to try out, but they have some stiff competition from 800 and R50.
> 
> R50 probably just got moved down a half of a notch due to that low spot I was in this past weekend. It could have been the smell of the tree I was cutting mixed in with the R50 and VP, but the tree smelled like diluted piss and when I cut the stumps, I felt like my nose was overwhelmed with the intensity of the smells. Have to give it one more try on a job with more than 1 tree to be sure. No headache or nausea, just kept spitting to rid myself of that smell


----------



## sunfish

ANewSawyer said:


> *I see Lucas oil being mentioned and I am curious how it will do.* I run Lucas cause I can buy it in bulk locally.
> 
> EDIT: Are we talking about the Lucas 2 cycle semi-synthetic oil? Or something else by Lucas?


It will do fine, it's all I run now. Is a semi-synthetic...


----------



## KenJax Tree

I can get Maxima Super M for the same price as Lucas which is 50/50 synthetic and mineral. Comparing them all i can see different is the flashpoint on the Super M is slightly higher but Lucas don't really post any specs on their site.


----------



## CR500

Andyshine77 said:


> The bottle of 800 off road I have smells like chemicals, definitely not anything pleasant. I'm not really a fan of 800 at 32:1 in a saw.


Maybe they changed something, the bottle of off road here has a fruity smell.

Road is pungent lol 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> If you are asking me, 800 off road.
> I have been giving away H1R and adding it to my 4 cycle fuel to try to get rid of it.
> 
> Out of R50, 800 off road, and H1R................ I like them in that order.
> I still have to really try K2, and Lucas. Havent given either of them much run time yet





Moparmyway said:


> To me, H1R is the thickest of them all
> R50 is like 800, with K2 being just a tad thinner


 



CR500 said:


> Maybe they changed something, the bottle of off road here has a fruity smell.
> 
> Road is pungent lol
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


800 off-road smells great to me but I mix mine with Sunoco 110.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> None of these recommended mix ratios on these various oils were made for chainsaws.
> 
> Seems to me the common sense thing to do, would be to try some different ratios and see what works best.


 Most 2-cycle oils labeled for chainsaw use have a viscosity between 7-9 cSts at 100C. The 800's and R50 have twice, or more, viscosity at that temp. We're definitely getting more protection using the thicker oils but I'm not sure how'll they performance versus a lower viscosity oil like Lucas or Motul 710.


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> To me, H1R is the thickest of them all
> R50 is like 800, with K2 being just a tad thinner


 
If you want to be technical here's the order of oils from the thinnest to the thickest (Viscosity at 100C) according to their Tech sheets in cSt's:
Lucas full synthetic: 7.5
Stihl HP Ultra: 8.45
Motul 710: 8.9
Belray H1R: 12.4
Maxima K2: 13.58
Motul 800 off-road: 15.5
Klotz R50: 18.20 (typical/average)
Motul 800 road racing: 19.2
Klotz KL-200: 22+

Here's several comparison in percents:
Going from H1R to 800 off-road is a 25% increase in viscosity at 100C
Going from H1R to R50 is a 46.7%
Going from H1R to 800 road racing is a 54.8%
Going from Stihl hp ultra to 800 off-road is 83.4%
Going from Lucas to 800 road racing is 156%

I'm considering testing the recommeded "chainsaw viscosities" (7-9 cSt's) to what I'm using now (Motul 800 off-road). I want to determine which will give my saw the best performance. I'll stay with a 32:1 ratio to insure adequate lower and topend lubrication. A 40:1 ratio might be a sufficient amount of oil to protect but I'm using ported saws so I'll stay on the safe side.


----------



## MustangMike

Ron, do U know the #s for Saber and the Lucas semi synthetic?

Thanks.


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> Ron, do U know the #s for Saber and the Lucas semi synthetic?
> 
> Thanks.


 Not sure about Saber but Lucas semi-synthetic is also 7.5 best I remember. Testing, timed cuts, may show the lower viscosities will have the fastest times...just a guess until testing.


----------



## mdavlee

Didn't know the KL 200 had the highest viscosity.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Didn't know the KL 200 had the highest viscosity.


 I bet that Klotz KL-200 would be great for milling.


----------



## KG441c

11.1 on the Saber Mustang


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> I bet that Klotz KL-200 would be great for milling.


Super techniplate is 22. Kl 300 which is the closest thing they show on the website is 7.9. They redid the site and lost kl 200 for some reason. I called and they said they had it and would get to work on the website.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I might give Maxima Super M a try for semi synthetic its 12.3 vs. 7.5 for Lucas, i can get it for about the same price.

Its 50/50 with ester synthetic and mineral and i was told Lucas was 70/30 with only 30% being synthetic but not ester.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Didn't know the KL 200 had the highest viscosity.


 That KL-200 looks "thicker than molasses in the winter time". That oil must be a "50 weight" but protection should be super.


----------



## MustangMike

Thanks Keith, that looks like a good # to me.

Higher may not always be better. It is like you don't want to run straight 50 wt oil unless your engine bearings have been clearanced!


----------



## Ron660

Looks like Klotz KL-200 is 23.3!

KLOTZ MSDS
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET KL-200
Klotz Special Formula Products, Inc. Telephone Number:
7424 Freedom Way 260-490-0489
Fort Wayne, IN 46818 260-490-0490 (fax)
Chemtrec – 1-800-424-9300
Chemical Name & Synonyms Chemical Family
Synthetic Lubricants 2 & 4 Cycle Lubricants
Trade Name Klotz Original Techniplate – KL-200(T), KL-199(T), KL-205
OSHA Hazard Classification: This product is not considered to be hazardous under 29 CFR 1910.1200
Boiling Point: N/A Specific Gravity: 1.002
Freezing Point: N/A % Volatile By Volume: <.1% @ 100 F
Melting Point: N/A Viscosity (cSt @ 100°C): 23.3
Vapor Pressure (mmHg): <1.0 @ 100 F Vapor Density (Air=1): N/A
Solubility in Water: Slightly Soluble Bulk Density: 8.364 lbs/gal
Evaporation Rate (Water=1): >1 Pour Point: -10 F uis
Decomposition Temp: N/A Appearance: KL-200(T), KL-205 Red Liquid
Odor: odorless to slightly musty KL-199(T) Clear, Natural Liquid
Weight per gallon: 8.364 lbs/gal
SECTION I - IDENTIFICATION
SECTION II - HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS
SECTION III - PHYSICAL DATA
SECTION IV - FIRE & EXPLOSION HAZARD INFORMATION
Auto ignition Temperature: No Data
Flammability in Air: Lower: N/A
Upper: N/A
Flash Point: 370-445 F ( 187 – 229 C )


----------



## KG441c

MustangMike said:


> Thanks Keith, that looks like a good # to me.
> 
> Higher may not always be better. It is like you don't want to run straight 50 wt oil unless your engine bearings have been clearanced!


Since Amsoil recommends 100to1 Id say 50to1 should be plenty


----------



## KG441c

Ronnie cSt for r50 is 21.9 max. Pretty sure these other companies are listing max


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Ronnie cSt for r50 is 21.9 max. Pretty sure these other companies are listing max


 Thanks. The standard method for the test requires an average and a deviation of no more than +/- 0.7%. The minimum for R50 is 16.3. I'm not sure about the other companies reporting values.....it could be a max.


----------



## KG441c

Looks like Klotz goes the xtra mile for protection in viscosities


----------



## KG441c

Mdavlee no wonder that r50 hardly shows any wear!!


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> If you want to be technical here's the order of oils from the thinnest to the thickest (Viscosity at 100C) according to their Tech sheets in cSt's:


I really wasnt wanting to get all testicles .................. I was talking about pouring the stuff into a container to mix


----------



## mdavlee

I like klotz for the price. The original will mix with any fuel.


----------



## Moparmyway

I just ran 3 tanks through the 661 with H1R @ 32:1 this weekend
I also ran 3 tanks through the freak (ported/snotted 066 by mdavlee) of R50 @ 32:1

Fuel was VP from a new 5 gallon jug for both.

The 661 piston top is brown dusty buildup
The 066 piston top is just about clean as new

I will run the next few tanks in the 661 with R50 @ 32:1 and keep an eye on the piston top

I will NOT be purchasing any H1R anymore, no matter what anyone else says and regardless of what anyones results show


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> I just ran 3 tanks through the 661 with H1R @ 32:1 this weekend
> I also ran 3 tanks through the freak (ported/snotted 066 by mdavlee) of R50 @ 32:1
> 
> Fuel was VP from a new 5 gallon jug for both.
> 
> The 661 piston top is brown dusty buildup
> The 066 piston top is just about clean as new
> 
> I will run the next few tanks in the 661 with R50 @ 32:1 and keep an eye on the piston top
> 
> I will NOT be purchasing any H1R anymore, no matter what anyone else says and regardless of what anyones results show


I'm wondering if MTronic runs richer than normal though.


----------



## blsnelling

blsnelling said:


> My 800 2T Road Racing arrive today as well. I haven't had a chance to open it up yet. I've been busy porting a 346.


This stuff is as thick as molasses!!! I very well may run it 40:1.


----------



## porsche965

/My 661 sure sounds richer than a properly tuned 660 or any non-electronic carbed saw. But it is turning 13,300 or so when lifted in wood. It sounds like it is running at 500 rpms at least fat/rich to me. And that's at 42:1.


----------



## CR500

blsnelling said:


> This stuff is as thick as molasses!!! I very well may run it 40:1.


I'm defiantly thinking the same thing lol

Seems sad to say but 32:1 may be a bit to much with the Road Racing blend.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> This stuff is as thick as molasses!!! I very well may run it 40:1.


Even at 40:1 it made a bigger black gooey mess than i cared for.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Even at 40:1 it made a bigger black gooey mess than i cared for.


If that's the case here, I'll certainly move on. I wanted to try it though. Jog my memory. What are you running now?


----------



## mdavlee

I haven't got a big mess with the 800 off road.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> If that's the case here, I'll certainly move on. I wanted to try it though. Jog my memory. What are you running now?


Right now i'm using K2 40:1 and no mess even in my AT saws. The 800 RR was running down the front of the mufflers.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Right now i'm using K2 40:1


That's what I've been running. I have some left, but wanted to try some others. Have you found K2 to be extra smokey when first started?


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> That's what I've been running. I have some left, but wanted to try some others. Have you found K2 to be extra smokey when first started?


Yeah in the morning they smoke for a minute or so longer but once they've been running i don't see smoke the rest of the day.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> If that's the case here, I'll certainly move on. I wanted to try it though. Jog my memory. What are you running now?


Maybe Motul 710 will be the ticket since VP puts it in their premix for chainsaws. It's 8.9 and hp ultra is 8.4. Lucas is 7.5. Redbulls initial tests showed hp ultra was faster than Belray. These oils, 710 or Lucas, at 32:1 or 40:1 should give plenty protection and give better performance from our saws. I'm sure Redbull will beat me to this test but I wouldn't complain. I'm also wondering if the same outcome from stocks saws will be the same with ported saws.


----------



## KenJax Tree

But like what has been said, maybe AT/MT run too rich for oil that thick. Maybe Brad the tuning whiz can make it run cleaner on a regular carb saw.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> But like what has been said, maybe AT/MT run too rich for oil that thick. Maybe Brad the tuning whiz can make it run cleaner on a regular carb saw.


Only makes sense if u wanna run the thicker oils, 800t,h1r, r50, and they have a performance disadvantage at 32:1, why not just run it at a higher ratio?


----------



## Flatie

blsnelling said:


> If that's the case here, I'll certainly move on. I wanted to try it though. Jog my memory. What are you running now?


Brad you should try 800 off road!


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> looking back at emails with belray - h*ttp://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oil-test-32-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420*
> 
> 
> viscosity #'s may not be the whole story...
> 
> -----------------------
> Redbull says -
> 
> why does h1r have a great film strength if the viscosity 100c is only 12.4 ?
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Belray -
> 
> The type of ester that is used has a very high polarity so it has a strong bond to metal surfaces, and because of its high stability, it remains intact in high pressure contact points.
> 
> ---------------------


Do you have any Motul 710 to try? This oil has esters.


----------



## KG441c

Where did the 12.4 value come from? I didnt see it in MSDS


----------



## blsnelling

Flatie said:


> Brad you should try 800 off road!


I've run it before. I don't remember the details, but no complaints.


----------



## KG441c

Ok I woulda thought higher also.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Only makes sense if u wanna run the thicker oils, 800t,h1r, r50, and they have a performance disadvantage at 32:1, why not just run it at a higher ratio?


I used it at 40:1 i'm not going higher than that. K2 or Lucas for me but might try Super M instead of Lucas next time.


----------



## mdavlee

I haven't had a problem with the 550 and the 800 making a mess. The rest of my saws aren't autotune so I don't know if that makes up the difference or not. The 550 to me runs a little leaner than I would like.


----------



## CR888

l ran 1/2 a tank of Motul 800 through my saw. No issues, great oil.lol


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Only makes sense if u wanna run the thicker oils, 800t,h1r, r50, and they have a performance disadvantage at 32:1, why not just run it at a higher ratio?


The oils in question are designed o run at ratios even lower than 32:1. It is the application that's miss matched.. why not just ran something that works better?


----------



## KG441c

It would work wouldnt it? What would be the difference running a thinner oil at 32to1 and running a thicker oil at 50to1?


----------



## KenJax Tree

mdavlee said:


> I haven't had a problem with the 550 and the 800 making a mess. The rest of my saws aren't autotune so I don't know if that makes up the difference or not. The 550 to me runs a little leaner than I would like.


RR or OR?


----------



## bwalker

I picked up 4 bottles of
MAXIMA k2 today and the same number of Motul 710 to try out.
FYI I haven't been able to respond to this thread for several days. I get an error every time I try to log into the site.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I just ran 3 tanks through the 661 with H1R @ 32:1 this weekend
> I also ran 3 tanks through the freak (ported/snotted 066 by mdavlee) of R50 @ 32:1
> 
> Fuel was VP from a new 5 gallon jug for both.
> 
> The 661 piston top is brown dusty buildup
> The 066 piston top is just about clean as new
> 
> I will run the next few tanks in the 661 with R50 @ 32:1 and keep an eye on the piston top
> 
> I will NOT be purchasing any H1R anymore, no matter what anyone else says and regardless of what anyones results show


Out of all the oils discussed on this thread H1R is the one I would run dead last.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> It would work wouldnt it? What would be the difference running a thinner oil at 32to1 and running a thicker oil at 50to1?


Bearings last longer with more oil, ring seal is better and HP is higher as documented by Mercury marine.


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> I'm wondering if MTronic runs richer than normal though.


The 066 was 4 stroking through 1/2 the cut after I leaned her out
The 661 was 4 stroking only at the start of each cut

To me, the 066 was sooooo much fatter throughout the entire weekend


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> RR or OR?


Off road


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Bearings last longer with more oil, ring seal is better and HP is higher as documented by Mercury marine.


So r we still saying the high viscosity oils at 32to1 wont combust as they should and hurt performance?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Bearings last longer with more oil, ring seal is better and HP is higher as documented by Mercury marine.


Do u believe that 800t at 32to1 offers no more protection against wear in the bottomend than yamalube @ 32:1?


----------



## showrguy

I think alot of you guys in this thread must be sittin in front of a mirror thinkin to yerselves "how am I gonna argue with this guy" ?????????????
It's another freakin oil thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Moparmyway

showrguy said:


> I think alot of you guys in this thread must be sittin in front of a mirror thinkin to yerselves "how am I gonna argue with this guy" ??


Maybe some guys are, but when you have your own saws to look at and they tell you all that you need to know, it becomes real easy to see who says the same things ............. its those guys that you learn to trust


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Maybe some guys are, but when you have your own saws to look at and they tell you all that you need to know, it becomes real easy to see who says the same things ............. its those guys that you learn to trust


Yep!! Then some people post for what other reason than to be sarcastic and criticize? Whats their point?


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Yep!! Then some people post for what other reason than to be sarcastic and criticize? Whats their point?



I think you just answered your own question there Keith 

I will say one other thing ................. mdavlee builds one stout mutha scratchin snotted up 066 !!


----------



## KG441c

Ive actually learned quite a bit in this thread and learned to appreciate several people here


----------



## KG441c

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


----------



## smokey7

I am pretty happy with my neglected abused saw i got from mybrother inlaw. he ran it on doller store oil. 
and cant measure to save his butt. I got it flushed everything out and switched it to lucas at 32:1 it nice and oily with a major muff mod and tuned to the edge. dam clean burning too


----------



## nk14zp

MustangMike said:


> Thanks Keith, that looks like a good # to me.
> 
> Higher may not always be better. It is like you don't want to run straight 50 wt oil unless your engine bearings have been clearanced!


You do if it's a Harley.


----------



## redbull660

correct me if I'm wrong here...

You simply can't just run 32:1 with every oil. The oils discussed here have a wide range of different properties.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> correct me if I'm wrong here...
> 
> You simply can't just run 32:1 with every oil. .



I believe that you could.
Some oils may offer certain advantages at less oil ratios, while others allow spooge to drip everywhere with higher oil ratios.
But whats wrong with running any oil @ 32:1 ?

We have seen some real dang nice pictures of Lucas @ 32:1 several times in the past 6 months. Virtually no wear, super clean looking exhaust and piston tops.

While I agree that the pics of H1R a few pages back look good for the runtime, I also know that they don't look as good as the pics of Lucas, R50, or 800 off road that's been floating around on a few forums with even more runtime.

Looks good works for some ............... but looks like it wasn't run (virtually no wear, clean inside and out) is what I want for my saws with my cabbage


----------



## redbull660

Obviously you can... I mean heck, I can put my left over 2 gallons of stihl ultra 45:1 mix in my car and it'll run. But it's not ideal. lol

So that's not the point. 

The point is, for the max performance, you can not.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> Obviously you can... I mean heck, I can put my left over 2 gallons of stihl ultra 45:1 mix in my car and it'll run. But it's not ideal. lol
> 
> So that's not the point.
> 
> The point is, for the max performance, you can not.


Yup .......... now you got me there !!!
Although I would attempt to counter with this; which is more important for your saw(s); max performance or max longevity ?

I suppose each saw might be considered separately in the answer, since there are some saws relegated to GTG and serious competitions sitting next to saws that get run daily in the same barn/garage.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> correct me if I'm wrong here...
> 
> You simply can't just run 32:1 with every oil. The oils discussed here have a wide range of different properties.


H1r,r50,and 800 are all run st 32:1.in bikes and 800 I'd run down to 16:1 in karts.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Do u believe that 800t at 32to1 offers no more protection against wear in the bottomend than yamalube @ 32:1?


In a saw, no it does not.


----------



## bikemike

bwalker said:


> Fouling isn't caused by too much oil but rather poor tuning. I have motors that run at 20:1 and the silencers are bone dry. I have seen shifter karts run at 16: very cleanly.


I like your post. Work em hard and they will stay clean. Some ppl just wont get it any bike or quad i had or built never went less than 32to 1 but i didnt putt putt around. Even on a trails bike


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Take it for what it is.
> 
> Chemist.
> 
> P#1... I have tested 20 of the top oil's over the summer in my lab, Viscosity, load pressure under r.p.m., metal to metal friction test, oxygen reactivity test, 4 ball wear test, foam control under heat, carbon build up test, And how refined the oil is.
> 
> The R.P.M. Unit (machine) was built with a stainless steel piston that run's up to 16,000 r.p.m's, I add E-10 gas into the port hole and add the oil to a 50-1 mix and run it until the database software on the computer tells me at what r.p.m. the oil break's down, It also tells me the viscosity under load pressure, was there any foam under heat and how much carbon build up under heat. The unit gets to a 116 Fahrenheit. I have noticed that with ethanol the carbon build up is very low with all oils, because ethanol is a strong solvent, cleanser, and drying agent. A good synthetic when using E-10 gas is a must, now with Non-ethanol gas the oils will read about 100 to 150 RPM's higher.
> 
> tested: Klotz r-50 Techniplate, This oil is all synthetic, and has very small molecules, And it is a thick oil, Maximum R.P.M. before break down of the oil viscosity and film strength was 15,579, even though the oil broke down, my test unit stayed at 116f, weird, this is the first time my unit did this, pour point tested at -14f, this oil passed my test.


The four ball wear test was designed for gear oils and is useless for two cycle oil. As for the rest of his apparatus nits pretty vague as to what exactly it is and how it functions. It's certainly not an industry recognized test.
The fact of the matter is the RPM any engine will turn before failure is a product of piston speed, not lubrication. Sport bikes for instance Rev out very high and with much higher piston speeds than a two stroke and they are very reliable, even on mineral oil.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> H1r,r50,and 800 are all run st 32:1.in bikes and 800 I'd run down to 16:1 in karts.



No offense meant, but I don't care what this stuff does in bikes or karts. 

My test clearly showed you can't run H1R in a stock 661 at 32:1. It runs hot and slow. 42:1 runs cooler and faster...by a lot. 

Now if I run something with a lower flash point like yamilube, I bet 32:1 with that would perform better relative to other mix ratios of yama lube...40:1 45:1 50:1. 


some stuff on Flash point -

*If you have a very low flash point it can result in increased combustion, but you are sacrificing lubrication by doing so since your lubricant is burning off before it even reaches the piston. There is a balance point that is necessary to not effect the combustion but still make the lubricant robust enough to reach the surfaces.*

*The flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup.*

*The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*


----------



## bikemike

Wow congrats ppl these oil theads blow up fast


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> In a saw, no it does not.


And probably not in anything else either..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> No offense meant, but I don't care what this stuff does in bikes or karts.
> 
> My test clearly showed you can't run H1R in a stock 661 at 32:1. It runs hot and slow. 42:1 runs cooler and faster...by a lot.
> 
> Now if I run something with a lower flash point like yamilube, I bet 32:1 with that would perform better relative to other mix ratios of yama lube...40:1 45:1 50:1.
> 
> 
> some stuff on Flash point -
> 
> *If you have a very low flash point it can result in increased combustion, but you are sacrificing lubrication by doing so since your lubricant is burning off before it even reaches the piston. There is a balance point that is necessary to not effect the combustion but still make the lubricant robust enough to reach the surfaces.*
> 
> *The flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup.*
> 
> *The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*


Your test shows it didn't run well in YOUR saw on that particular day.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> No offense meant, but I don't care what this stuff does in bikes or karts.
> 
> My test clearly showed you can't run H1R in a stock 661 at 32:1. It runs hot and slow. 42:1 runs cooler and faster...by a lot.
> 
> Now if I run something with a lower flash point like yamilube, I bet 32:1 with that would perform better relative to other mix ratios of yama lube...40:1 45:1 50:1.
> 
> 
> some stuff on Flash point -
> 
> *If you have a very low flash point it can result in increased combustion, but you are sacrificing lubrication by doing so since your lubricant is burning off before it even reaches the piston. There is a balance point that is necessary to not effect the combustion but still make the lubricant robust enough to reach the surfaces.*
> 
> *The flash point does have to do with combustion but there are more important properties that contribute to carbon buildup.*
> 
> *The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*


And again you totally fail to understand what flashpoint is and what it measures....
Essentially what it measures, assuming then oil has a diluent is the temp at which the diluent flashes. The diluent makes up a small part of the blend.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well that is what I said. so what's your point?


Doesn't mean it won't run great in someone else's say on a different day.

Wanna hear something funny? The motorcycle guys argue that a low flash oil is better and seek them out..
Both are wrong in that you can not use flashpoint for anything else other than determine how dangerous the stuff is to ship and store.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


 Very good article. I'll stay with 32:1 like Randy recommends. Looks like 10K - 13.5K rpms then 32:1. Interesting the Castor based oils had the least wear compared to the full synthetics.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> In a saw, no it does not.


 Why? Motul 800 off-road has a higher film strength (greater viscosity values).


----------



## redbull660

well I'd like to point out that if you run an oil at 32:1, but it has say 20% solvent in it, your actually really running 40:1 actual oil.

on a different note...

ready!


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> correct me if I'm wrong here...
> 
> You simply can't just run 32:1 with every oil. The oils discussed here have a wide range of different properties.


 
They have different film strengths but I'd still use 32:1 in a ported saws. Less oil....less lubrication. Read that article Keith posted.


----------



## porsche965

All that chain. That's getting serious RedBull. What a thread!


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> well I'd like to point out that if you run an oil at 32:1, but it has say 20% solvent in it, your actually really running 40:1 actual oil.
> 
> on a different note...
> 
> ready!


WOW ...............

hopefully going out today ............ do I get to pick ??

Only kidding ................. on the picking part, but I will PM you tracking when I get it.

that's a lot of spinning !!!!!!


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> well I'd like to point out that if you run an oil at 32:1, but it has say 20% solvent in it, your actually really running 40:1 actual oil.
> 
> on a different note...
> 
> ready!


 Any plans on testing Motul 710 vs Motul 800 off-road or other oils in a ported 660?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well I'd like to point out that if you run an oil at 32:1, but it has say 20% solvent in it, your actually really running 40:1 actual oil.
> 
> on a different note...
> 
> ready!


Most dilluent treat rates are between 1 and 10%.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Why? Motul 800 off-road has a higher film strength (greater viscosity values).


You are making the assumption that more is better.


----------



## bikemike

Ron660 said:


> Very good article. I'll stay with 32:1 like Randy recommends. Looks like 10K - 13.5K rpms then 32:1. Interesting the Castor based oils had the least wear compared to the full synthetics.


I do say i like the syn blend it is a mix of both oils. My ports are clean and i still get smoke on warm up and when under load a few gallons later my engine is still plenty lubed and no carbon build up. But the leanest i go is 40 to 1


----------



## bikemike

Ron660 said:


> Why? Motul 800 off-road has a higher film strength (greater viscosity values).


I like viscosity. In my engines and wife


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> correct me if I'm wrong here...
> 
> You simply can't just run 32:1 with every oil. The oils discussed here have a wide range of different properties.


 I've thought the same but I'm staying with plenty of oil (32:1) in my ported saw. Just for kicks, here's a comparison of different oil film strengths (viscosity) to oil ratios:
Belray H1R at 32:1 is equilvalent to Motul 800 off-road at 42:1
Lucas 32:1 = Motul 800 off-road at 100:1
Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 = Belray H1R at 25:1
Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 = Stihl hp ultra at 17:1
Klotz R50 at 32:1 = Motul 800 off-road at 38:1


----------



## bikemike

There is more competition in this thread than the super bowl


----------



## bikemike

How much is the motal 800 per qt? Sounds like something id try


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You are making the assumption that more is better.


 I'm comparing viscosity lab results which is related to film strength. The greater the film strength more protection but not necessarily more performance from a certain size chainsaw.


----------



## Ron660

bikemike said:


> How much is the motal 800 per qt? Sounds like something id try


Cheaper than a bucket of Popeyes chicken.


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> I do say i like the syn blend it is a mix of both oils. My ports are clean and i still get smoke on warm up and when under load a few gallons later my engine is still plenty lubed and no carbon build up. But the leanest i go is 40 to 1


That was in the 70's. Oils have came along ways since then and honestly I see no reason to use straight castor and very few reasons to run a castor blend in anything. However in Kart racing some guys do run straight castor at 16:1.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Cheaper than a bucket of Popeyes chicken.


Lmbo!!! Thats high!! Southern Classic is better cluck cluck anyway!!


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> You are making the assumption that more is better.


That didnt explain why and Im curious also?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm comparing viscosity lab results which is related to film strength. The greater the film strength more protection but not necessarily more performance from a certain size chainsaw.


If you never get to the point were you need that film strength what good is it doing you? Why not run 10w90 in your truck? And there are trade offs. High viscosity oils do not and can not burn as clean.


----------



## redbull660

testing motul...

IMO - to do it properly. You would need to test 710 and 800 at 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1 and measure - times, temps, and how consistent the temps are. 

- Each oil out there, is obviously different, and produces peak performance at different mix ratios. To say that I'm going to just run 32:1 of whatever, is simply foolish. So to do it right, again in my opinion one needs to test several mix ratios for each oil, to find the optimal mix for THAT oil. 

- Next once you found the optimal mix for several oils you could run them against each other to find which oil ran the fastest, most consistent temps, etc.

- The problem I see with doing all that, is that in my discussions with Belray - the guy readily admitted that most oils would perform pretty darn close!!! 

So we could spend all this time and money, just to (most likely) prove EXACTLY what he said. Times and temps are pretty close!.......ONCE you find optimal mix ratio for each oil. That is the KEY. 


So what is the difference then? Protection. How do we figure which oil has the best protection? Look at and take apart a lot of saws!

Soooo I choose H1R because: 

1. Randy (Mastermind) has a long track record of running H1R in his PORTED saws with great success. 

2. On paper it most closely resembles Stihl Ultra (which was designed for chainsaws!) 

3. Talking with belray...if you only look at/consider the non biased info given, you can learn a lot. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420 

4. considering my testing so far. you can't run belray at 32:1 in a stock saw. Maybe in a ported. My not in a stock...we'll test my 660 to guage that as well. 


But to just test a bunch of oils all at 32:1 ... only thing your going to prove is which one has a good mix ratio at 32:1 ...nothing to do with protection. Because most likely the fastest 32:1 would have the most solvent in it that would combust easier than the actual oil. 

Hence you wouldn't actually really be running 32:1 oil. you'd be running like 40:1 oil with 20% solvent in it. And that would win because it was the fastest. And everyone would FEELL good cuz they mixed at 32:1. 

And EVEN THEN ...there would be no real track record of protection like Randy and H1R. Just a bunch of conflicting hearsay from a bunch of different most likely unreliable sources. Far less controlled than Randy sending out his saws and saying I run H1R at 32:1 ...at least there you have some degree of controlled/known variables. 



You guys do what you wanna do. But I'm going with H1R. and yeah the only thing I'll be proving is what mix ratio works best in a stock 661 and stock 660. 

I am not about to test 4 mix ratios in 710 or 800 or k2 or yamawhatever or anything else, just to find out that times and temps at the optimal ratios for each one are nearly identical. At which point the only thing left to do would be either default back to Randy's track record with H1R OR default to a bunch of less reliable hearsay ...well it did this for me and this one did this for my saw but in this other dude's saw it sucked and I don't know and it would never end.


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> I've thought the same but I'm staying with plenty of oil (32:1) in my ported saw. Just for kicks, here's a comparison of different oil film strengths (viscosity) to oil ratios:
> Belray H1R at 32:1 is equilvalent to Motul 800 off-road at 42:1
> Lucas 32:1 = Motul 800 off-road at 100:1
> Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 = Belray H1R at 25:1
> Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 = Stihl hp ultra at 17:1
> Klotz R50 at 32:1 = Motul 800 off-road at 38:1




film strength is not only a factor of viscosity. There are other contributions to film strength and even based on viscosity, it is not a 1:1 ratio of film strength to viscosity.


----------



## blsnelling

The only thing this test really does is test for optimal performance. It will tell us very little about protection (temps), and nothing about how clean it burns. IMHO, those tests should be completed first, and then the winner tested for optimal performance.


----------



## KG441c

Im still not understanding why the thicker higher viscosity wont protect the bottom end as well as an oil rated at half the viscosity. Forget the topend and carbon. What about the bottomend


----------



## bwalker

I agree, why waste your time testing when the tests are not valid anyways. And the Belray tech is right. You are not going to notice any differance in cut times, etc that cant be accounted for by the many uncontrolled variable in your testing methodology.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Im still not understanding why the thicker higher viscosity wont protect the bottom end as well as an oil rated at half the viscosity. Forget the topend and carbon. What about the bottomend


In all likely hood they may, but again, if you dont need that protection, what good is it doing you? Are you prepared to deal with the negative side effects?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> The only thing this test really does is test for optimal performance. It will tell us very little about protection (temps), and nothing about how clean it burns. IMHO, those tests should be completed first, and then the winner tested for optimal performance.


With all do respect. ISO and JASO have already done this with the EGD and , FC/FD tests respectively. Start with an actually certified oils and try them. Pick the one you like best and rock on.


----------



## blsnelling

I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than R2, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> testing motul...
> 
> IMO - to do it properly. You would need to test 710 and 800 at 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1 and measure - times, temps, and how consistent the temps are.
> 
> - Each oil out there, is obviously different, and produces peak performance at different mix ratios. To say that I'm going to just run 32:1 of whatever, is simply foolish. So to do it right, again in my opinion one needs to test several mix ratios for each oil, to find the optimal mix for THAT oil.
> 
> - Next once you found the optimal mix for several oils you could run them against each other to find which oil ran the fastest, most consistent temps, etc.
> 
> - The problem I see with doing all that, is that in my discussions with Belray - the guy readily admitted that most oils would perform pretty darn close!!!
> 
> So we could spend all this time and money, just to (most likely) prove EXACTLY what he said. Times and temps are pretty close!.......ONCE you find optimal mix ratio for each oil. That is the KEY.
> 
> 
> So what is the difference then? Protection. How do we figure which oil has the best protection? Look at and take apart a lot of saws!
> 
> Soooo I choose H1R because:
> 
> 1. Randy (Mastermind) has a long track record of running H1R in his PORTED saws with great success.
> 
> 2. On paper it most closely resembles Stihl Ultra (which was designed for chainsaws!)
> 
> 3. Talking with belray...if you only look at/consider the non biased info given, you can learn a lot. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420
> 
> 4. considering my testing so far. you can't run belray at 32:1 in a stock saw. Maybe in a ported. My not in a stock...we'll test my 660 to guage that as well.
> 
> 
> But to just test a bunch of oils all at 32:1 ... only thing your going to prove is which one has a good mix ratio at 32:1 ...nothing to do with protection. Because most likely the fastest 32:1 would have the most solvent in it that would combust easier than the actual oil.
> 
> Hence you wouldn't actually really be running 32:1 oil. you'd be running like 40:1 oil with 20% solvent in it. And that would win because it was the fastest. And everyone would FEELL good cuz they mixed at 32:1.
> 
> And EVEN THEN ...there would be no real track record of protection like Randy and H1R. Just a bunch of conflicting hearsay from a bunch of different most likely unreliable sources. Far less controlled than Randy sending out his saws and saying I run H1R at 32:1 ...at least there you have some degree of controlled/known variables.
> 
> 
> 
> You guys do what you wanna do. But I'm going with H1R. and yeah the only thing I'll be proving is what mix ratio works best in a stock 661 and stock 660.
> 
> I am not about to test 4 mix ratios in 710 or 800 or k2 or yamawhatever or anything else, just to find out that times and temps at the optimal ratios for each one are nearly identical. At which point the only thing left to do would be either default back to Randy's track record with H1R OR default to a bunch of less reliable hearsay ...well it did this for me and this one did this for my saw but in this other dude's saw it sucked and I don't know and it would never end.


 Belray isn't the closest to Stihl hp ultra...it's Motul 710. VP uses it in their premix. 
I also agree with Randy using 32:1. Protection is more important than a possible slight speed advantage. Most of the pics I've seen the H1R was dirty just like Bwalker said.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> film strength is not only a factor of viscosity. There are other contributions to film strength and even based on viscosity, it is not a 1:1 ratio of film strength to viscosity.


 It's one of the most important. I work with a guy that blended Stihl and Husqvarna oil for years.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Im still not understanding why the thicker higher viscosity wont protect the bottom end as well as an oil rated at half the viscosity. Forget the topend and carbon. What about the bottomend


I think because the bottom end is well taken care of @ 32:1, so it becomes a "which is cleaner running" question


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than R2, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.


 Brad, I'd say Motul 710 or 800 off-road.


----------



## blsnelling

I don't understand the logic of trying to match the flashpoint of HP Ultra. They didn't design the oil to a certain FP. That was just the result. Who cares what Ultra does anyway? We're not trying to equal Ultra, we're trying to better it.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> If you never get to the point were you need that film strength what good is it doing you? Why not run 10w90 in your truck? And there are trade offs. High viscosity oils do not and can not burn as clean.


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> I think because the bottom end is well taken care of @ 32:1, so it becomes a "which is cleaner running" question


Exactly. That being the case, what gives better protection...a synthetic ester at 40:1 or something like R2 at 32:1? With that question, I'm making the assumption that the synthetic ester needs to be 40:1 to run clean and have acceptable performance. That may well not be the case.


----------



## Ron660

That's Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. That's after almost two liters of off-road.


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> I think because the bottom end is well taken care of @ 32:1, so it becomes a "which is cleaner running" question


 I agree 100%....no 200%.


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than* R2*, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.


Brad - do you mean K2 or R50 ?



blsnelling said:


> Exactly. That being the case, what gives better protection...a synthetic ester at 40:1 or something like *R2* at 32:1? With that question, I'm making the assumption that the synthetic ester needs to be 40:1 to run clean and have acceptable performance. That may well not be the case.


Brad - do you mean K2 or R50 ?



Ron660 said:


> View attachment 419184
> 
> 
> That's Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. That's after almost two quarts of off-road.


Motul 800 off-road    

That's friggin beautiful !!!!!!

So far, 800 off-road, R50, and Lucas pictures @ 32:1 have shown little to no wear, and spotless top ends ................ I would love to see some long term used with K2 @ 32:1


----------



## blsnelling

I think your way over complicating #1. I believe that when you find the best for one saw, it will be best for the majority. Furthermore, I think you're splitting hairs to test more than 32:1, 40:1, & 50:1. 

I think you could safely assume that *any* of these synthetic ester oils will give similar protection to H1R. To focus sole on H1R is to ignore #3.

For these reasons, I think we're going about this backwards. On the other hand, I think someone else could pick up #2 & #3, then apply what you've found on #1. *No, I don't think you're wasting your time and effort.* The results for me will not indicate the best oil, rather simply the possible best ratio for performance.


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> Brad - do you mean K2 or R50 ?


Yamalube R2.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Exactly. That being the case, what gives better protection...a synthetic ester at 40:1 or something like R2 at 32:1? With that question, I'm making the assumption that the synthetic ester needs to be 40:1 to run clean and have acceptable performance. That may well not be the case.


I agree


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than R2, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.


I would say your state that an ester would give better protection than 2R is a blanket statement. 2R is used in applications many times more stressful than a saw, so I think it would do just fine with anything you can dish out, even with a ported saw.


----------



## Mastermind

I've tried a lot of other oils too.......and none caused a failure. 

I used a quart of K2 not long ago........too smelly. 

I've used 710, and 800......great oils. 

Mobil 2T.......again, great stuff......very clean. 

I'm trying Yamalube now. 

I'm sorta the if it ain't broke, don't fix it sorta guy. H1R worked well. I kept using it.


----------



## bwalker

If you are running lean for long you will seize and no oil will prevent it.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> I would say your state that an ester would give better protection than 2R is a blanket statement. 2R is used in applications many times more stressful than a saw, so I think it would do just fine with anything you can dish out, even with a ported saw.


That very well may be. This is pushing me to continue with the idea of some endpoint failure testing. I see no way to test bearing wear, unless the bottom end fails, but I think I can gain some valuable data with heat seizures.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> That very well may be. This is pushing me to continue with the idea of some endpoint failure testing. I see no way to test bearing wear, unless the bottom end fails, but I think I can gain some valuable data with heat seizures.


When??? Already!! Lol!!


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> If you are running lean for long you will seize and no oil will prevent it.


On my heat seizure testing, I would tune to factory specs, then see what oil gives the best protection with the least oil. I would monitor cylinder temps and time to failure.
Would it be logical to assume that the oil which keeps the saw running the coolest and longest gives the best protection?

On the other hand, why bother with endpoint failure testing? All of these synthetic ester are likely to give protection past anything reasonably needed. In that case, simply move onto what runs the cleanest.


----------



## KG441c

Id be more interested in that test rather than ratios but Im still waiting to see Redbulls test as it is interesting


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> On the other hand, why bother with endpoint failure testing? All of these synthetic ester are likely to give protection past anything reasonably needed. In that case, simply move onto what runs the cleanest.


THIS!
As I have said many times earlier the film strength issue with two cycle oils being a limiting factor was addressed years ago.


----------



## Mastermind

I do know that I've learned a lot from these "silly" oil threads. They have pushed me to try different oils, read and study.....

I will again say that this one test, with this one M-T saw is not enough to change my mind about anything I've learned.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 419184
> 
> 
> That's Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. That's after almost two quarts of off-road.


Muffler is pretty wet..


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Muffler is pretty wet..


Why is a wet muffler not good ?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Muffler is pretty wet..


I will take a wet muffler, well protected and clean top half any day - any week - any month - of any and every year over anything else.
I want my saws to last !!!


----------



## bwalker

One thing I will say is that my current bike, a 09 Yamaha YZ-250 has been punished while running 2R @ 32:1 on pump fuel and its never missed a beat. I am jetted very sharp and the compression on this model is borderline for pump gas. I also have a Pro Circuit pipe on it, which makes the above situation even worse. I have had this bike at the dunes where I was wide open throttle most of a day with a paddle tire. The unfinished steel pipe turned blue it got so hot and the section near the manifold was dull, like it was about ready to start glowing. The bike ran perfect for three days like that.
I have never punished a saw like this.
Am I comfortable using 2R in a saw, no matter the application? You bet!


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Why is a wet muffler not good ?


Because it means your running rich or your blowing oil out the exhaust, which decreases HP. It also leads to buildup on spark screens, etc and makes a mess.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I will take a wet muffler, well protected and clean top half any day - any week - any month - of any and every year over anything else.
> I want my saws to last !!!


Your not doing your saws any favors running like that. And your losing HP.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> One thing I will say is that my current bike, a 09 Yamaha YZ-250 has been punished while running 2R @ 32:1 on pump fuel and its never missed a beat. I am jetted very sharp and the compression on this model is borderline for pump gas. I also have a Pro Circuit pipe on it, which makes the above situation even worse. I have had this bike at the dunes where I was wide open throttle most of a day with a paddle tire. The unfinished steel pipe turned blue it got so hot and the section near the manifold was dull, like it was about ready to start glowing. The bike ran perfect for three days like that.
> I have never punished a saw like this.
> Am I comfortable using 2R in a saw, no matter the application? You bet!


I can not remember exactly how far down the pipe ,but my engine builder would look at my pipe to see if the jetting was right for how i was riding on the 250r ,would use the blueing as a tuning tool .

Edit ,now that you mention the glowing ,at night in the dunes ,i could see the pipe glow some by the jug .


----------



## bwalker

This is from a bone stock 562 ran on 2R since new.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Your not doing your saws any favors running like that. And your losing HP.


How long of a bar do you normally run ? seems like with a 32 inch in fir ,with my saws they run the best with the can a little wet ,the screens are clean and dry ,I also run triple port muffler ,seems like with a dual port the can is dryer with the carb adjusted the same ,Is there a point of letting too much exhaust out and running cooler vs burning dryer and choking the saw up more ?


----------



## bwalker

I run a 18 or 20" in wood much, much harder than fir. I cut doug fir for firewood while in Montana for elk camp and I cant believe how easy it cuts, even standing dead stuff thats dry. I imagine MT fir is also a far bit harder than what you see on the wet side of the mountains.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Your not doing your saws any favors running like that. And your losing HP.


I don't mind loosing a little power knowing they will look and run like new for a looong time.
Mdavlee built a nasty - snotted up ported 066 for me, and that sucker can afford whatever you think is lost due to maintaining a clean top end and spotless exhaust

As far as not doing any favors for my saws ............ I disagree 100%
I have seen carbon buildup kill engines. Non adjustable carbs and fully adjustable ones. Same fuel, same ratio, only difference was the oil

You have your experiences, I have mine;
I use my experiences from my equipment and the ones I have worked on - other members actual pictures have verified my own observations

Keep writing whatever you wish, it makes no difference to me. I agree with you on some things, and disagree with you on other things. The only person that is responsible for my saws is me, so if there are any favors going around, then please do me the favor and stop trying to tell me how to run my stuff. I don't like how the exhaust looks in your pictures, but I aint telling you that you need to do your saw or bike a favor and "clean up" your exhaust.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I run a 18 or 20" in wood much, much harder than fir. I cut doug fir for firewood while in Montana for elk camp and I cant believe how easy it cuts, even standing dead stuff thats dry. I imagine MT fir is also a far bit harder than what you see on the wet side of the mountains.


With a 20 inch bar i can tune like you are saying ,but my 75cc saw gets way to lean with the 32 or 36 inch bar buried ,so have to tune my particular saw richer to pull that bar ,I have cut hardwoods also ,they clear the chips easier in my opinion than the softwoods ,if i run full comp in fir ,it plugs with chips too much and bogs the saw ,have to run a semi or full skip to keep the chain clear ,if i cut maple which is a hardwood ,i can get away with full comp ,i am talking 20-40 inch logs ,not smaller 12-16 inch stuff ,dead fir is real soft and punky ,it cuts real easy ,i hear the Montana stuff is tighter grained because it grows slower than it does here ,i guess all i am saying is my particular saw seems to run the best with an oily muffler with a longer bar being run ,if i cut smaller stuff it is way too rich .


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> With a 20 inch bar i can tune like you are saying ,but my 75cc saw gets way to lean with the 32 or 36 inch bar buried ,so have to tune my particular saw richer to pull that bar ,I have cut hardwoods also ,they clear the chips easier in my opinion than the softwoods ,if i run full comp in fir ,it plugs with chips too much and bogs the saw ,have to run a semi or full skip to keep the chain clear ,if i cut maple which is a hardwood ,i can get away with full comp ,i am talking 20-40 inch logs ,not smaller 12-16 inch stuff ,dead fir is real soft and punky ,it cuts real easy ,i hear the Montana stuff is tighter grained because it grows slower than it does here ,i guess all i am saying is my particular saw seems to run the best with an oily muffler with a longer bar being run ,if i cut smaller stuff it is way too rich .


 Interesting hypothesis you have regarding the need to adjust F/A ratio based on the bar size. What is your rational for this?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I don't mind loosing a little power knowing they will look and run like new for a looong time.
> Mdavlee built a nasty - snotted up ported 066 for me, and that sucker can afford whatever you think is lost due to maintaining a clean top end and spotless exhaust
> 
> As far as not doing any favors for my saws ............ I disagree 100%
> I have seen carbon buildup kill engines. Non adjustable carbs and fully adjustable ones. Same fuel, same ratio, only difference was the oil
> 
> You have your experiences, I have mine;
> I use my experiences from my equipment and the ones I have worked on - other members actual pictures have verified my own observations
> 
> Keep writing whatever you wish, it makes no difference to me. I agree with you on some things, and disagree with you on other things. The only person that is responsible for my saws is me, so if there are any favors going around, then please do me the favor and stop trying to tell me how to run my stuff. I don't like how the exhaust looks in your pictures, but I aint telling you that you need to do your saw or bike a favor and "clean up" your exhaust.





Moparmyway said:


> I don't mind loosing a little power knowing they will look and run like new for a looong time.
> Mdavlee built a nasty - snotted up ported 066 for me, and that sucker can afford whatever you think is lost due to maintaining a clean top end and spotless exhaust
> 
> As far as not doing any favors for my saws ............ I disagree 100%
> I have seen carbon buildup kill engines. Non adjustable carbs and fully adjustable ones. Same fuel, same ratio, only difference was the oil
> 
> You have your experiences, I have mine;
> I use my experiences from my equipment and the ones I have worked on - other members actual pictures have verified my own observations
> 
> Keep writing whatever you wish, it makes no difference to me. I agree with you on some things, and disagree with you on other things. The only person that is responsible for my saws is me, so if there are any favors going around, then please do me the favor and stop trying to tell me how to run my stuff. I don't like how the exhaust looks in your pictures, but I aint telling you that you need to do your saw or bike a favor and "clean up" your exhaust.





Moparmyway said:


> I don't mind loosing a little power knowing they will look and run like new for a looong time.
> Mdavlee built a nasty - snotted up ported 066 for me, and that sucker can afford whatever you think is lost due to maintaining a clean top end and spotless exhaust
> 
> As far as not doing any favors for my saws ............ I disagree 100%
> I have seen carbon buildup kill engines. Non adjustable carbs and fully adjustable ones. Same fuel, same ratio, only difference was the oil
> 
> You have your experiences, I have mine;
> I use my experiences from my equipment and the ones I have worked on - other members actual pictures have verified my own observations
> 
> Keep writing whatever you wish, it makes no difference to me. I agree with you on some things, and disagree with you on other things. The only person that is responsible for my saws is me, so if there are any favors going around, then please do me the favor and stop trying to tell me how to run my stuff. I don't like how the exhaust looks in your pictures, but I aint telling you that you need to do your saw or bike a favor and "clean up" your exhaust.


I have never lost a two cycle engine to carbon buildup and I have never ran them excessively rich. Have you considered what all that liquid fuel is doing to your crank bearings,etc assuming your rich?


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> Interesting hypothesis you have regarding the need to adjust F/A ratio based on the bar size. What is your rational for this?


Quite simply ; more work needs more power to do that work


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I have never lost a two cycle engine to carbon buildup and I have never ran them excessively rich. Have you considered what all that liquid fuel is doing to your crank bearings,etc assuming your rich?


Excessively rich is an interpretation
All that fuel and oil is simply keeping things cool and lubing up bearings. I thought you understood how a 2 cycle operates ?

Oh, and youre starting to repeat yourself


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> ,i guess all i am saying is my particular saw seems to run the best with an oily muffler with a longer bar being run ,if i cut smaller stuff it is way too rich .


It aint just your saw on your coast


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't think it matters what oil you use. None of these oils will ever be put to the extremes they are made to protect against. A chainsaw will never get run that hard.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Interesting hypothesis you have regarding the need to adjust F/A ratio based on the bar size. What is your rational for this?


Fuel air ratio requirements do change with load.


----------



## blsnelling

The more load that's put on a saw, the hotter it gets. The hotter a saw gets, the leaner it runs. Therefore, more fuel is required to keep it from going lean. At the same time, this additional fuel helps keep the heat down.


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> Quite simply ; more work needs more power to do that work


 Simply adding more fuel will not equate to more work output.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't think it matters what oil you use. None of these oils will ever be put to the extremes they are made to protect against. A chainsaw just never get run that hard.


In most cases you are exactly right.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> With a 20 inch bar i can tune like you are saying ,but my 75cc saw gets way to lean with the 32 or 36 inch bar buried ,so have to tune my particular saw richer to pull that bar ,I have cut hardwoods also ,they clear the chips easier in my opinion than the softwoods ,if i run full comp in fir ,it plugs with chips too much and bogs the saw ,have to run a semi or full skip to keep the chain clear ,if i cut maple which is a hardwood ,i can get away with full comp ,i am talking 20-40 inch logs ,not smaller 12-16 inch stuff ,dead fir is real soft and punky ,it cuts real easy ,i hear the Montana stuff is tighter grained because it grows slower than it does here ,i guess all i am saying is my particular saw seems to run the best with an oily muffler with a longer bar being run ,if i cut smaller stuff it is way too rich .


Your hardwoods and ours are not the same. Pulling a 24" bar in rock maple with a 75cc saw is less than desirable


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> Quite simply ; more work needs more power to do that work





Marshy said:


> Simply adding more fuel will not equate to more work output.



That's not what was said Marshy.


----------



## Marshy

blsnelling said:


> The more load that's put on a saw, the hotter it gets. The hotter a saw gets, the leaner it runs. Therefore, more fuel is required to keep it from going lean. At the same time, this additional fuel helps keep the heat down.


 
How does temperature of the saw impact the fuel to air ratio? Thought that was controled by mass of fuel and mass of air being mixed for combustion...


----------



## Metals406

bwalker said:


> I run a 18 or 20" in wood much, much harder than fir. I cut doug fir for firewood while in Montana for elk camp and I cant believe how easy it cuts, even standing dead stuff thats dry. I imagine MT fir is also a far bit harder than what you see on the wet side of the mountains.


It is harder fir here. Montana is a huge state, some regions have harder fir than others.

There are thousands of homes in MT with fir flooring. Some 100+ years old.


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> Fuel air ratio requirements do change with load.


 I agree, heavy load makes more power with a richer fuel charge. Just seems silly to me you would adjust carb with different size bars. Reason I say that is because even with a shorter bar I can load the machine just as much as a longer bar but the feed pressure I put on the saw.


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> That's not what was said Marshy.


Please explain more in detail. You left a lot to be inferred.


----------



## Metals406

25:1

Anything else is just brown water!


----------



## porsche965

blsnelling said:


> The more load that's put on a saw, the hotter it gets. The hotter a saw gets, the leaner it runs. Therefore, more fuel is required to keep it from going lean. At the same time, this additional fuel helps keep the heat down.



That's exactly what I like about the Electronic saws like the 661 and 562. I cut for a Tree Service making firewood for fun and through the loads of wood that come in there are many varying species and degrees of hard. Instead of having to grab the little orange screwdriver the system adjusts for more of less fuel according to how hard the saw is working. Maybe I'm getting lazy as I age but it sure is easy.

I think a failure test would surprise quite a few people just how well their oils stand up to heat and extremes.
Anyone can build a hot rod that tools around town, looks good, sounds cool and shoots some straight lines once in a while. Peg that motor against the red line for an hour, if that, and you will see just how good the builder and oil is.

Yep, starting at the other end of ratios will reveal a lot and a failure is a failure, not speculation.


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> I agree, heavy load makes more power with a richer fuel charge. Just seems silly to me you would adjust carb with different size bars. Reason I say that is because even with a shorter bar I can load the machine just as much as a longer bar but the feed pressure I put on the saw.


Can i ask how large of wood you normally cut ?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> View attachment 419195
> This is from a bone stock 562 ran on 2R since new.


 


bwalker said:


> Because it means your running rich or your blowing oil out the exhaust, which decreases HP. It also leads to buildup on spark screens, etc and makes a mess.


 I've used stihl hp ultra at 50:1 and Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 with 93 octane and 110 Sunono fuel. I'll stay with the Motul.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> View attachment 419195
> This is from a bone stock 562 ran on 2R since new.


Here's another pic of my ported 660. That's clean....yours isn't. Believe me, I've done a few timed cuts to determine performance.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Your hardwoods and ours are not the same. Pulling a 24" bar in rock maple with a 75cc saw is less than desirable


I do not think i would like it there if a 75cc saw had to run a 25 inch bar or less ,lol


----------



## cuttinties

Marshy said:


> I agree, heavy load makes more power with a richer fuel charge. Just seems silly to me you would adjust carb with different size bars. Reason I say that is because even with a shorter bar I can load the machine just as much as a longer bar but the feed pressure I put on the saw.




The guide bar is essentially a lever and the log is the fulcrum.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I do not think i would like it there if a 75cc saw had to run a 25 inch bar or less ,lol


I prefer a ported 90cc saw with a 28" bar buried in Red Oak with square chisel chain.


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> Can i ask how large of wood you normally cut ?


I don't typically see much over 30". I put a 18" on my 2159, the 365 wears a 20" and the only bar I have for the 285 is a 24". I think it's irrelevant but will play along... Please enlighten me.


----------



## Marshy

cuttinties said:


> The guide bar is essentially a lever and the log is the fulcrum.


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> I don't typically see much over 30". I put a 18" on my 2159, the 365 wears a 20" and the only bar I have for the 285 is a 24". I think it's irrelevant but will play along... Please enlighten me.


Try out a 32 some time ,make one pass in the 30 inch log ,and let me know how the saw pulls ,or if it leans out on you at all from the extra load from your settings with the 20 inch bar .


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> Try out a 32 some time ,make one pass in the 30 inch log ,and let me know how the saw pulls ,or if it leans out on you at all from the extra load from your settings with the 20 inch bar .


I think I can achieve the same loading with the 20" with more pressure. I think I'll just tune the saw once loaded in the cut and call it done. The F/A ratio doesnt change with the load being applied.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm running a ported 046 with an 18" .325 9 pin this weekend. 

Is that a problem?


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> I think I can achieve the same loading with the 20" with more pressure. I think I'll just tune the saw once loaded in the cut and call it done. The F/A ratio doesnt change with the load being applied.


Seems like a regional thing on bar sizes and uses ,same thing with the handlebars ,you would most likely not like my wrap handles either .


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> I'm running a ported 046 with an 18" .325 9 pin this weekend.
> 
> Is that a problem?


What kind of oil are you going to use ?


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> Seems like a regional thing on bar sizes and uses ,same thing with the handlebars ,you would most likely not like my wrap handles either .


I have a saw with a wrap, have no problems with it. I think you guys are beyond the point of deminishing return and might be an outlier with some of your practices and your reasoning. Carry on.


----------



## cuttinties

Marshy said:


> I have a saw with a wrap, have no problems with it. I think you guys are beyond the point of deminishing return and might be an outlier with some of your practices and your reasoning. Carry on.


Cool story


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I prefer a ported 90cc saw with a 28" bar buried in Red Oak with square chisel chain.


A common setup around here is a 385 or a 390 with a 20" bar. Sugar Maple is hard and our growing season very short so the wood is very dense. To give some reference we still have more than a foot of snow in the woods so the trees won't start growing for the season for awhile yet.


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> What kind of oil are you going to use ?



Tractor Supply 20-50W


----------



## blsnelling

I really think you should use SAE30 Non-Detergent.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


>


WTF is right...


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Excessively rich is an interpretation
> All that fuel and oil is simply keeping things cool and lubing up bearings. I thought you understood how a 2 cycle operates ?
> 
> Oh, and youre starting to repeat yourself


It will keep it cool all right at the expense of HP and diluting your lubricating oil with excess fuel...If you think this is a good thing rock on.....


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> I really think you should use SAE30 Non-Detergent.



I concur.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 419227
> 
> Here's another pic of my ported 660. That's clean....yours isn't. Believe me, I've done a few timed cuts to determine performance.


That look pretty good, slightly rich but not bad. Mine on the other hand is completely clean and dry as it should be with a properly tuned engine.


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> I really think you should use SAE30 Non-Detergent.





Mastermind said:


> I concur.



Your both wrong ........... says sae 40


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I concur.


Back in the 60s snowmobiles ran on that stuff.


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> Quite simply ; more work needs more power to do that work





Marshy said:


> Simply adding more fuel will not equate to more work output.





Moparmyway said:


> That's not what was said Marshy.





Marshy said:


> Please explain more in detail. You left a lot to be inferred.



Whats not to understand ?
To do more work you need to produce more power
Try what Brian suggested by running a longer bar in bigger wood and see if the saw likes more fuel. Your saw needs to be capable of utilizing that fuel, but somehow I think you already know that. 
You cant simply "push harder" ................ you need more cutters engaged along the cut or the chainspeed needs to be increased, the rakers are at play in your "push harder" fallicy


----------



## Marshy

cuttinties said:


> Cool story


----------



## Metals406

Mastermind said:


> I'm running a ported 046 with an 18" .325 9 pin this weekend.
> 
> Is that a problem?


Yes. . . GTFO!


+potato


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> A common setup around here is a 385 or a 390 with a 20" bar. Sugar Maple is hard and our growing season very short so the wood is very dense. To give some reference we still have more than a foot of snow in the woods so the trees won't start growing for the season for awhile yet.


I just bought a 390xp with full wrap handle. Fixing to get it ported just hasn't come in yet. I'll probably use a Cannon 24" .063 gauge for now and buy a longer bar later.....maybe a superlilte Cannon when they come out. Most of the Loggers in my area use Stihl 70+cc saws. One guy I know still uses his old 044 with a 25" Oregon bar. A smaller amount of Loggers are using 372's. They're mostly cutting softwood pines. Red Oak is popular in my area for firewood along with Hickory. Post oak, willow oak, or water oak are not preferred but I'll take it if needed. 
My Logging buddy told me his newest 461 only lasted 5 months before a lower end bearing went out. He mixes stihl hp ultra leaner than 40:1. I'm not sure if it was oil related....he never said.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I just bought a 390xp with full wrap handle. Fixing to get it ported just hasn't come in yet. I'll probably use a Cannon 24" .063 gauge for now and buy a longer bar later.....maybe a superlilte Cannon when they come out. Most of the Loggers in my area use Stihl 70+cc saws. One guy I know still uses his old 044 with a 25" Oregon bar. A smaller amount of Loggers are using 372's. They're mostly cutting softwood pines. Red Oak is popular in my area for firewood along with Hickory. Post oak, willow oak, or water oak are not preferred but I'll take it if needed.
> My Logging buddy told me his newest 461 only lasted 5 months before a lower end bearing went out. He mixes stihl hp ultra leaner than 40:1. I'm not sure if it was oil related....he never said.


When I was timber falling I used to run Stihl 440's with a dual port covers and a 20" bars and latter ported Husky 372's with a 24". I also Ran 288 lites if we got into real big wood or Husky 385 and 395's. I tried not to run the bigger saws unless I really needed to as the increased weight was apparent. I almost forgot, I did run a Dolmar 7900 briefly too right after they first came out, but it went down the road as the parts situation was half assed at best.
Its odd sometimes the differences in setups used in different parts of the country. In this area anymore there are very few people running saws in the woods as they have been replaced by feller bunchers and processors.


----------



## cuttinties

Marshy said:


> I agree, heavy load makes more power with a richer fuel charge. Just seems silly to me you would adjust carb with different size bars. Reason I say that is because even with a shorter bar I can load the machine just as much as a longer bar but the feed pressure I put on the saw.





cuttinties said:


> The guide bar is essentially a lever and the log is the fulcrum.





Marshy said:


>





bwalker said:


> WTF is right...


Obviously you guys can read but you forget something most are taught in school. The ability to push a saw or buck in smaller wood is easier because the fulcrum is smaller giving you a better pivot point which makes the lever more effective (guide bar). You'll notice that the larger the round the lighter you must handle a saw. Well that's simply because when the fulcrum is place closer to the effort (the power head) assuming the lever does not lose or store energy, the power in must equal the power out. As you move the lever (guide bar) around the fulcrum, points farther from this pivot move faster than points closer to the pivot. Thus meaning the effort applied to a point farther from the pivot (bucking spikes) must be less than the force located at a point closest to the pivot. 

Now on to the lesson in friction. When a saw is cutting there's 5 places of resistance. Resistance causes friction and friction has this little byproduct called heat. Now when you start to apply heat for long periods of time it requires more lubrication because the fuel/oil mix does evaporate.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Obviously you guys can read but you forget something most are taught in school. The ability to push a saw or buck in smaller wood is easier because the fulcrum is smaller giving you a better pivot point which makes the lever more effective (guide bar). You'll notice that the larger the round the lighter you must handle a saw. Well that's simply because when the fulcrum is place closer to the effort (the power head) assuming the lever does not lose or store energy, the power in must equal the power out. As you move the lever (guide bar) around the fulcrum, points farther from this pivot move faster than points closer to the pivot. Thus meaning the effort applied to a point farther from the pivot (bucking spikes) must be less than the force located at a point closest to the pivot.
> 
> Now on to the lesson in friction. When a saw is cutting there's 5 places of resistance. Resistance causes friction and friction has this little byproduct called heat. Now when you start to apply heat for long periods of time it requires more lubrication because the fuel/oil mix does evaporate.


Its obvious you flunked physics... Hint:the wood isnt the fulcrum, but the "load".


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> Whats not to understand ?
> To do more work you need to produce more power
> Try what Brian suggested by running a longer bar in bigger wood and see if the saw likes more fuel. Your saw needs to be capable of utilizing that fuel, but somehow I think you already know that.
> You cant simply "push harder" ................ you need more cutters engaged along the cut or the chainspeed needs to be increased, the rakers are at play in your "push harder" fallicy


Your missing my point. Blanket statements like yours might as well be false information. There is a point when more fuel doesn't equal more power. I'm sure you know that and have experienced it first hand if you've ever tuned a saw or any other engine for that matter. This same concept applies to quantity of oil vs protection IMO (diminishing return).




Once you set your F/A ratio you dont have to change it unless you have a change in elevation or significant change in air temp. This is independent of load.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> That look pretty good, slightly rich but not bad. Mine on the other hand is completely clean and dry as it should be with a properly tuned engine.


 It might be a little rich. My tach said it's around 13,500 WOT but it cleans up in larger wood. The last Red Oak, around 20" with a 25+ base, it was 4-stroking continuously felling and bucking. But when I cut the stump it cleaned up.


----------



## Metals406

Ohhhh

You guys are mathing.

I'm out.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Its obvious you flunked physics... Hint:the wood isnt the fulcrum, but the "load".


Only part of the equation. The wood functions as 2 things. The fulcrum and the load. But obviously facts don't phase you. I'm still waiting for you to state your qualifications Oil genius.


----------



## blsnelling

Load is load. I don't care of it comes from a longer bar or more pressure. The engine doesn't know the difference.


----------



## Marshy

cuttinties said:


> Obviously you guys can read but you forget something most are taught in school. The ability to push a saw or buck in smaller wood is easier because the fulcrum is smaller giving you a better pivot point which makes the lever more effective (guide bar). You'll notice that the larger the round the lighter you must handle a saw. Well that's simply because when the fulcrum is place closer to the effort (the power head) assuming the lever does not lose or store energy, the power in must equal the power out. As you move the lever (guide bar) around the fulcrum, points farther from this pivot move faster than points closer to the pivot. Thus meaning the effort applied to a point farther from the pivot (bucking spikes) must be less than the force located at a point closest to the pivot.
> 
> Now on to the lesson in friction. When a saw is cutting there's 5 places of resistance. Resistance causes friction and friction has this little byproduct called heat. Now when you start to apply heat for long periods of time it requires more lubrication because the fuel/oil mix does evaporate.




Thanks for the lesson teach.


----------



## cuttinties

Marshy said:


> View attachment 419242
> 
> Thanks for the lesson teach.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Only part of the equation. The wood functions as 2 things. The fulcrum and the load. But obviously facts don't phase you. I'm still waiting for you to state your qualifications Oil genius.


I already have.. and like I said you failed physics...
It's no wonder you can't grasp how to properly tune a two cycle engine..


----------



## stihl sawing

Whats the oil for, I ain't never used any. I took somebodys recommendation here that don't use it.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> I already have.. and like I said you failed physics...


It won't hurt you to state them again. What makes you feel that you're the most intelligent person in the forum?


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> It won't hurt you to state them again. What makes you feel that you're the most intelligent person in the forum?


No I do not, however I do feel your not the sharpest knife in the drawer..


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> It might be a little rich. My tach said it's around 13,500 WOT but it cleans up in larger wood. The last Red Oak, around 20" with a 25+ base, it was 4-stroking continuously felling and bucking. But when I cut the stump it cleaned up.


If you are four stroking continuously you are more than a little rich.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I already have.. and like I said you failed physics...
> It's no wonder you can't grasp how to properly tune a two cycle engine..


Can i ask how open your muffler ports are ? On my sawmill i was trying to quiet it down once and i noticed a change on how dry the muffler was not touching the carb ,with a stock 660 muffler ,stock small exit and stock sold cover ,it was very dry inside ,piston had a light film of oil ,next test was just add a dual port cover with opening enlarged with stock baffle inside and stock side hole ,i saw slight wetness in the can ,enough i felt would not lean the saw out milling with ,3rd test (the loudest muffler ) Modded side exhaust hole and baffle removed ,with the modded front cover ,the saw seemed to run coolest with this setup ,but was very oily inside ,lots of sooty build up ,again untouched the carb ,when cutting they all seemed to run ok milling would 4 stroke letting out of the cut , so in your opinion does the muffler mods make a difference in how much oil is in the can ? or should the saw be leaned out more with the muffler opened up more to make it dryer inside ? The oil was H1r 32 to 1 with 92 pump gas if that makes any difference . So i guess my findings were the more i opened up the muffler to breathe ,the wetter and soottier things got .


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> No I do not, however I do feel your not the sharpest knife in the drawer..


Well if you think that I'm so dull why not build a saw and race me? I'll be at the Iowa GTG it's about halfway. I have offered to race you a few times in this thread. Running boat motors hardly makes you qualified as the oil god. That's the only thing that I have found in your last 10 pages of previous posts that even resembles first hand experience. Everything I'm finding is where other people build things for you. It's not hard to sign a check and go fast. Why not build it yourself? If I'm less intelligent than you how is it possible that I wouldn't need anyone to build a saw for me?


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> *The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*



Flash point is referring solvents, which are evaporating/flashing off are ignited. The oil itself is not burning. 

Sorry your test means nothing, it has zero controls. No chemist, engineer would take it serious.


----------



## mdavlee

Marshy said:


> Your missing my point. Blanket statements like yours might as well be false information. There is a point when more fuel doesn't equal more power. I'm sure you know that and have experienced it first hand if you've ever tuned a saw or any other engine for that matter. This same concept applies to quantity of oil vs protection IMO (diminishing return).
> 
> View attachment 419238
> 
> 
> Once you set your F/A ratio you dont have to change it unless you have a change in elevation or significant change in air temp. This is independent of load.


Tune a saw with a 32-36" bar for that sized wood and check with a tach. Put a 20" on it and then see what it's turning. There's a difference with just the bars and chains resistance on the bar. If you tune pretty rich any way it won't matter but I try to tune with the longest bar I'll be running and leave it there.


----------



## KG441c

No 4 stroking? Bigwood?? Kaboommm!!


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> Tune a saw with a 32-36" bar for that sized wood and check with a tach. Put a 20" on it and then see what it's turning. There's a difference with just the bars and chains resistance on the bar. If you tune pretty rich any way it won't matter but I try to tune with the longest bar I'll be running and leave it there.


Hey you ,you do not need a bar that long back east .........


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> No 4 stroking? Bigwood?? Kaboommm!!


There's a difference between a properly tuned saw and one that will barely clean up in the wood. That is unnecessarily rich and kills TONS of power. A properly tuned saw cleans up as soon as it hits the wood. Yes, I tune them richer than that when stumping or milling. The tune described above is only needed in those cases.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> There's a difference between a properly tuned saw and one that will barely clean up in the wood. That is unnecessarily rich and kills TONS of power. A properly tuned saw cleans up as soon as it hits the wood. Yes, I tune them richer than that when stumping or milling. The tune described above is only needed in those cases.


Ya Brad I actually figured out to tune off 4 stroke in the wood by a video u posted where it cut clean and when u decrease pressure a tad it sounded like a nanny goat


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> There's a difference between a properly tuned saw and one that will barely clean up in the wood. That is unnecessarily rich and kills TONS of power. A properly tuned saw cleans up as soon as it hits the wood. Yes, I tune them richer than that when stumping or milling. The tune described above is only needed in those cases.


I was actually referring to 4 stroke out of the cut Brad.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Can i ask how open your muffler ports are ? On my sawmill i was trying to quiet it down once and i noticed a change on how dry the muffler was not touching the carb ,with a stock 660 muffler ,stock small exit and stock sold cover ,it was very dry inside ,piston had a light film of oil ,next test was just add a dual port cover with opening enlarged with stock baffle inside and stock side hole ,i saw slight wetness in the can ,enough i felt would not lean the saw out milling with ,3rd test (the loudest muffler ) Modded side exhaust hole and baffle removed ,with the modded front cover ,the saw seemed to run coolest with this setup ,but was very oily inside ,lots of sooty build up ,again untouched the carb ,when cutting they all seemed to run ok milling would 4 stroke letting out of the cut , so in your opinion does the muffler mods make a difference in how much oil is in the can ? or should the saw be leaned out more with the muffler opened up more to make it dryer inside ? The oil was H1r 32 to 1 with 92 pump gas if that makes any difference . So i guess my findings were the more i opened up the muffler to breathe ,the wetter and soottier things got .


Its bone stock. No doubt opening the muffler up requires tuning changes. None of my saws, including those ported and those stock with muffler mods have wet mufflers.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Flash point is referring solvents, which are evaporating/flashing off are ignited. The oil itself is not burning.
> 
> Sorry your test means nothing, it has zero controls. No chemist, engineer would take it serious.


EXACTLY!


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Well if you think that I'm so dull why not build a saw and race me? I'll be at the Iowa GTG it's about halfway. I have offered to race you a few times in this thread. Running boat motors hardly makes you qualified as the oil god. That's the only thing that I have found in your last 10 pages of previous posts that even resembles first hand experience. Everything I'm finding is where other people build things for you. It's not hard to sign a check and go fast. Why not build it yourself? If I'm less intelligent than you how is it possible that I wouldn't need anyone to build a saw for me?


The more you talk the more stupid you sound....


----------



## KG441c

Lol!! This is a wild thread


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> Your missing my point. Blanket statements like yours might as well be false information. There is a point when more fuel doesn't equal more power. I'm sure you know that and have experienced it first hand if you've ever tuned a saw or any other engine for that matter. This same concept applies to quantity of oil vs protection IMO (diminishing return).
> 
> View attachment 419238
> 
> 
> Once you set your F/A ratio you dont have to change it unless you have a change in elevation or significant change in air temp. This is independent of load.


You cant proove my point wrong, yet you really want to, so you post up Toyota air/fuel data which has NOTHING to do with what my statement referred to ??  

So you try to tell me that my correct statement might as well be wrong ..... 

So you the kind of guy that would add watermelons to apples and expect to have everyone eat Lasagna ??   


Listen real good cause I am only gunna say it one more time for ya .............. as the load is increased you need more power to do the work. Simple;


----------



## redbull660

redbull660 said: ↑
*The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*



Andyshine77 said:


> Flash point is referring solvents, which are evaporating/flashing off are ignited. The oil itself is not burning.
> 
> Sorry your test means nothing, it has zero controls. No chemist, engineer would take it serious.




Don't know why you have to be such a jerk about it...

anyway -

The flash point of a chemical is the lowest temperature where enough fluid can evaporate to form a combustible concentration of gas.
The flash point is an indication of how easy a chemical may burn. Materials with higher flash points are less flammable or hazardous than chemicals with lower flash points.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-fuels-d_937.html

oil is a chemical.
oil is in that list.
oil burns.
oil is consumed by the combustion process. The flash point does have an indication of how quickly that happens .


would appreciate it, if in the future you would at least research what your saying before you say it.


----------



## KG441c

They still workin on the barn Redbull?


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> hoping tomorrow is the day! fingers crossed. Also I had to prep the wood. Can't use a skidder or anything to move things around. This thing is around 4'+ Just me so...
> 
> 
> I'm also adding 361 into the mix with 20" bar 3/8 .063 RS. It's a mint saw and in perfect running condition so should be a good test. It is not muff modded or any other mods.


Sounds good man! Have fun!!


----------



## porsche965

I find it funny how the guy that is spending the most money and doing the testing that everyone calls worthless is attacked the most. 

And yet I haven't seen one person that has commented on this thread or criticized Red Bull or each other to make any kind of video of their own.


----------



## mdavlee

I'm surprised there was that much difference in cut times with just the change in oil. I'll test a little bit myself when I get time some time this decade.


----------



## porsche965

mdavlee said:


> I'm surprised there was that much difference in cut times with just the change in oil. I'll test a little bit myself when I get time some time this decade.



You have some great saws to try it on Mike. I plan to do the same but Mom broke her arm (she is 84) and I won't have time until next week since taking care of her is a handful. Real anxious to try. The Tree Service just brought some big Oak into the firewood landing.


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> You cant proove my point wrong, yet you really want to, so you post up Toyota air/fuel data which has NOTHING to do with what my statement referred to
> 
> So you try to tell me that my correct statement might as well be wrong .....
> 
> So you the kind of guy that would add watermelons to apples and expect to have everyone eat Lasagna
> 
> 
> *Listen real good cause I am only gunna say it one more time for ya* .............. as the load is increased you need more power to do the work. Simple;


Step down from your horse and stop acting like you've said something adroit. You keep saying you need more power to do more work and I've asked you how you intend to get more power out of the saw and you haven't answered clearly. I've asked you to elaborate and all I get is nothing... Any time you feel like coming down out of the clouds to explain I'll listen. As far as I'm concerned there's not a lot of power left on the table once its tuned properly so where's the power coming from?

Mean while I've stated facts about air/fuel ratios and how too rich will lose power/torque. Although the graph I posted was in part emissions from Toyota its has valid information about best torque relative to air/fuel ratio. I'll repeat it incase you didn't catch it the first time. *When adjusting your air to fuel ratio further rich, there is point of diminishing return where more fuel will not produce more power. Therefore your blanket statement and inference to add more fuel and get more power is not correct IMO and is misleading. *Instead of being so defensive and ambiguous try reading, comprehending and validating some information and you might learn something new. There's a whole science behind internal combustion, specifically the science of air ad fuel is called *Stoichiometry. *


----------



## Gologit

Gypo Logger said:


> I just wanted to add that Golickit would give his father a blow job to do his mother out of a piece of tale. Lol



Wow. I thought I was reading another oil thread 'til I found this.

John, you can insult me personally all you want. I'll just ignore you like I always have.

But insulting family members crosses the line. That's not allowed and you've been here long enough to know that.


----------



## Marshy

porsche965 said:


> I find it funny how the guy that is spending the most money and doing the testing that everyone calls worthless is attacked the most.
> 
> And yet I haven't seen one person that has commented on this thread or criticized Red Bull or each other to make any kind of video of their own.


I think the real reason is because there is a number of people that know that one or two cuts per sample (given mix ratio) is not enough to be conclusive. I'm not attacking him or anyone else but I don't believe the test he's conducted is thorough enough or has enough data points to be conclusive. Especially seeing some of the timed cuts where the saw hung-up in the cut. JMO


----------



## Metals406

KG441c said:


> Ya Brad I actually figured out to tune off 4 stroke in the wood by a video u posted where it cut clean and when u decrease pressure a tad it sounded like a nanny goat


Proper tuning. . .


----------



## .404

Gee mention oil mixture and engage full retard mode in just 90 short pages? Priceless.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> redbull660 said: ↑
> *The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know why you have to be such a jerk about it...
> 
> anyway -
> 
> The flash point of a chemical is the lowest temperature where enough fluid can evaporate to form a combustible concentration of gas.
> The flash point is an indication of how easy a chemical may burn. Materials with higher flash points are less flammable or hazardous than chemicals with lower flash points.
> 
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-fuels-d_937.html
> 
> oil is a chemical.
> oil is in that list.
> oil burns.
> oil is consumed by the combustion process. The flash point does have an indication of how quickly that happens .
> 
> 
> would appreciate it, if in the future you would at least research what your saying before you say it.


Your dealing with a mixture with different components that have different boiling points...The fact you can't understand the significance of this tidbit is telling.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker, I've supported you in some of your points. However, I have to ask, why do you have to resort to personal attacks and condescending remarks to make your points?


----------



## bwalker

Because


blsnelling said:


> bwalker, I've supported you in some of your points. However, I have to ask, why do you have to resort to personal attacks and condescending remarks to make your points?


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..


----------



## Metals406

Wouldn't the combination of two components, with different flash points, make a new component with its own flash point?

Brad, you smell like celery and old linen. 

(Had to squeeze my insult in there, seemed the direction the thread was taking.)


----------



## bwalker

Metals406 said:


> Wouldn't the combination of two components, with different flash points, make a new component with its own flash point?
> 
> Brad, you smell like celery and old linen.
> 
> (Had to squeeze my insult in there, seemed the direction the thread was taking.)


No. Gasoline for instance is made with a variety of components yet it's lowest boiling point component is what will determine it's flashpoint.


----------



## mdavlee

Marshy the fuel can be too rich and lose power. Long cuts with long bars need more fuel than cutting 8x8". You can tune a 372 to 15.5k for cutting cookies and it is fine. Try that with a 32" bar and 30" of wood and it's toast. The hotter they get the leaner they get. I'm pretty sure that's the point Moparmyway is trying to make.


----------



## Metals406

Jolly good show!


----------



## Freehand

Buncha low count booger kneaders…...


----------



## Gypo Logger

Gologit said:


> Wow. I thought I was reading another oil thread 'til I found this.
> 
> John, you can insult me personally all you want. I'll just ignore you like I always have.
> 
> But insulting family members crosses the line. That's not allowed and you've been here long enough to know that.


Ya, but remember when you said my grandmother wore army boots??? I am still holding a grudge about that!


----------



## Metals406

Freehand said:


> Buncha low count booger kneaders…...


How else are we supposed to get our booger loaves to rise??

Duh


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> redbull660 said: ↑
> *The flash point has more to do with how quickly the oil is consumed by the combustion process and how it affects the octane rating of the fuel.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know why you have to be such a jerk about it...
> 
> anyway -
> 
> The flash point of a chemical is the lowest temperature where enough fluid can evaporate to form a combustible concentration of gas.
> The flash point is an indication of how easy a chemical may burn. Materials with higher flash points are less flammable or hazardous than chemicals with lower flash points.
> 
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-fuels-d_937.html
> 
> oil is a chemical.
> oil is in that list.
> oil burns.
> oil is consumed by the combustion process. The flash point does have an indication of how quickly that happens .
> 
> 
> would appreciate it, if in the future you would at least research what your saying before you say it.


Sorry if I came off sounding like a jerk, I was simply stating it as I see it.


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> You keep saying you need more power to do more work and I've asked you how you intend to get more power out of the saw and you haven't answered clearly.


Its been answered the entire time from several members and myself. Just because you don't get what you asked for when you asked for it does not mean it is not there


Marshy said:


> I've asked you to elaborate and all I get is nothing... Any time you feel like coming down out of the clouds to explain I'll listen. As far as I'm concerned there's not a lot of power left on the table once its tuned properly so where's the power coming from?


Marshy, since I have hit a nerve and you are getting yer panties twisted - lets review .........
Here is the exact order this went through ......... I will leave only the important stuff for ya


Trx250r180 said:


> With a 20 inch bar i can tune like you are saying ,but my 75cc saw gets way to lean with the 32 or 36 inch bar buried ,so have to tune my particular saw richer to pull that bar ,i guess all i am saying is my particular saw seems to run the best with an oily muffler with a longer bar being run ,if i cut smaller stuff it is way too rich .





Marshy said:


> Interesting hypothesis you have regarding the need to adjust F/A ratio based on the bar size. What is your rational for this?


ANSWERED BLEOW


Moparmyway said:


> Quite simply ; more work needs more power to do that work





Marshy said:


> Simply adding more fuel will not equate to more work output.





Moparmyway said:


> That's not what was said Marshy.


Key detail from you below


Marshy said:


> I agree, heavy load makes more power with a richer fuel charge. Just seems silly to me you would adjust carb with different size bars. Reason I say that is because even with a shorter bar I can load the machine just as much as a longer bar but the feed pressure I put on the saw.





Marshy said:


> Please explain more in detail. You left a lot to be inferred.


ANSWERED BELOW


Trx250r180 said:


> Try out a 32 some time ,make one pass in the 30 inch log ,and let me know how the saw pulls ,or if it leans out on you at all from the extra load from your settings with the 20 inch bar .





Marshy said:


> I think I can achieve the same loading with the 20" with more pressure. I think I'll just tune the saw once loaded in the cut and call it done. The F/A ratio doesnt change with the load being applied.


ANSWERD BELOW


Moparmyway said:


> Whats not to understand ?
> To do more work you need to produce more power
> Try what Brian suggested by running a longer bar in bigger wood and see if the saw likes more fuel. Your saw needs to be capable of utilizing that fuel, but somehow I think you already know that.
> You cant simply "push harder" ................ you need more cutters engaged along the cut or the chainspeed needs to be increased, the rakers are at play in your "push harder" fallicy





Marshy said:


> Your missing my point. Blanket statements like yours might as well be false information. There is a point when more fuel doesn't equal more power.


ANSWERED BELOW AGAIN


mdavlee said:


> Tune a saw with a 32-36" bar for that sized wood and check with a tach. Put a 20" on it and then see what it's turning. There's a difference with just the bars and chains resistance on the bar. If you tune pretty rich any way it won't matter but I try to tune with the longest bar I'll be running and leave it there.





Moparmyway said:


> Listen real good cause I am only gunna say it one more time for ya .............. as the load is increased you need more power to do the work. Simple;


Key detail from you below


Marshy said:


> As far as I'm concerned there's not a lot of power left on the table once its tuned properly so where's the power coming from?


ANSWERED YET AGAIN BELOW


mdavlee said:


> Marshy the fuel can be too rich and lose power. Long cuts with long bars need more fuel than cutting 8x8". You can tune a 372 to 15.5k for cutting cookies and it is fine. Try that with a 32" bar and 30" of wood and it's toast. The hotter they get the leaner they get. I'm pretty sure that's the point Moparmyway is trying to make.



The mistake that I believe you are making is that I believe there is not 1 tune for a saw. The saw needs to be able to do the work. If it can make say 5 horsepower, yet only requires 1 hp to cut a small stick with a 12" bar, you will lean it out to have it 2 stroke in the cut, and 4 stroke out of the cut. That same saw with a 36" bar needs 5 hp to cut a 35" tree, and you are going to have to add fuel to get it to 2 stroke in the cut, and 4 stroke out of the cut. Hence more power is needed to do the work

Now, if your saw is a Mini Mac ......... you cant just add more fuel to a longer bar, the saw cant do the work, so it needs more time to get the work done. That saw just used more power (same power input over a longer time).


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Marshy said:


> Mean while I've stated facts about air/fuel ratios and how too rich will lose power/torque. Although the graph I posted was in part emissions from Toyota its has valid information about best torque relative to air/fuel ratio. I'll repeat it incase you didn't catch it the first time. *When adjusting your air to fuel ratio further rich, there is point of diminishing return where more fuel will not produce more power. Therefore your blanket statement and inference to add more fuel and get more power is not correct IMO and is misleading. *Instead of being so defensive and ambiguous try reading, comprehending and validating some information and you might learn something new. There's a whole science behind internal combustion, specifically the science of air ad fuel is called *Stoichiometry.*
> 
> View attachment 419321
> 
> View attachment 419322


That 14.7 stoich does not apply to pump E10 fuels which have a stoich of 14.0-14.20. Lamda of 1.000 is stoich and .850 is usually 11.9-12.07 with pump E10 fuels. Most still go off the non E10 fuel so I thought this info may be of some help.


----------



## redbull660

anyone have info on lowest temp some of these oils can be used at?

Stihl shows -38F "pour point". Not sure if that would be the number though.


I asked belray how low I could go with H1R...

Redbull says -

Sir,

is there a lowest temp stat that one would consider if you were using at say -30F below? yeah I know...but the truth is I have done cutting at those temps. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belray -

Yes we have that data for our 2-stroke oils. The H1-R experiences some additive dropout at -42°C (-44°F), but none was seen before that point during the cooldown range. Now, it may still be usable past that temperature as it wasn’t the entire bulk of oil that separated, but since some additives dropped out, we would not suggest running it at that temperature or lower because of the possible risk.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> anyone have info on lowest temp some of these oils can be used at?
> 
> Stihl shows -38F "pour point". Not sure if that would be the number though.
> 
> 
> I asked belray how low I could go with H1R...
> 
> Redbull says -
> 
> Sir,
> 
> is there a lowest temp stat that one would consider if you were using at say -30F below? yeah I know...but the truth is I have done cutting at those temps.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Belray -
> 
> Yes we have that data for our 2-stroke oils. The H1-R experiences some additive dropout at -42°C (-44°F), but none was seen before that point during the cooldown range. Now, it may still be usable past that temperature as it wasn’t the entire bulk of oil that separated, but since some additives dropped out, we would not suggest running it at that temperature or lower because of the possible risk.


 I'll never be cutting in those temperatures. Down here in Louisiana , below 40F is cold.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> anyone have info on lowest temp some of these oils can be used at?
> 
> Stihl shows -38F "pour point". Not sure if that would be the number though.
> 
> 
> I asked belray how low I could go with H1R...
> 
> Redbull says -
> 
> Sir,
> 
> is there a lowest temp stat that one would consider if you were using at say -30F below? yeah I know...but the truth is I have done cutting at those temps.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Belray -
> 
> Yes we have that data for our 2-stroke oils. The H1-R experiences some additive dropout at -42°C (-44°F), but none was seen before that point during the cooldown range. Now, it may still be usable past that temperature as it wasn’t the entire bulk of oil that separated, but since some additives dropped out, we would not suggest running it at that temperature or lower because of the possible risk.


That's a good question to ask. I wouldn't worry about it with any oil other than castor or castor blend oils. With them I wood get nervous when the temp went south of 50 degrees and really nervous when it got below 40. I would also only mix up only enough fuel that I was going to use at one time as it tends to drop out of suspension when sitting.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'll never be cutting in those temperatures. Down here in Louisiana , below 40F is cold.


I cut every year in below zero weather. Saws run good and you don't have to worry about getting sweaty!


----------



## bullrider

This just proves that opinion's is like butt holes, everybodys got one and all of'em stinks.No one is ever gonna agree on everything,thats why there is 25 different types of automobile's, guns,tater chips,etc.. Just chose what you like and run it. Been running sthil synthetic 40;1 all my life in stocksaws.Now I have a few ported saws and my hero advised 32;1 would be better, so I choose belray h1r and have zero issues.Use to use that in my cr480 Honda years ago,13 14+k never any issues.All of todays oil is problay good,just pick what you like and go with it, no need to argue and fight about it.IT ALL GOOD AND LIFE IS SHORT (NO WORRIES) PEACE!!!!!!


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> That's a good question to ask. I wouldn't worry about it with any oil other than castor or castor blend oils. With them I wood get nervous when the temp went south of 50 degrees and really nervous when it got below 40. I would also only mix up only enough fuel that I was going to use at one time as it tends to drop out of suspension when sitting.


Had that problem with 927 castor racing arenacross in winter time over in idaho ,had to keep the bikes next to propane heaters ,when looked in the fuel cans could actually see the oil separating in the can when looked in there ,kept fouling plugs trying to start the bikes .was in the teens if i remember right .


----------



## blsnelling

I ran 927 exclusively in my built Yamaha Banshee. When temps were cold I added 1 oz/ gallon isopropyl alcohol and never had issues. IIRC, that's what Maxima recommended.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I ran 927 exclusively in my built Yamaha Banshee. When temps were cold I added 1 oz/ gallon isopropyl alcohol and never had issues. IIRC, that's what Klotz recommended.


Brad, Any idea on why this would make a differance?


----------



## blsnelling

I have no idea, just following the manufactures guideline.


----------



## Metals406

bwalker said:


> Brad, Any idea on why this would make a differance?





blsnelling said:


> I have no idea, just following the manufactures guideline.


Clearly, the alcohol got the oil drunk, making the oil more susceptible to the fuels advances.

Science


----------



## Marshy

So basically this is your reply.


Moparmyway said:


>


Meanwhile...


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Brad, Any idea on why this would make a differance?


Must be same reason ice fisherman keep a whiskey flask in their coat .


----------



## Marshy

mdavlee said:


> Marshy the fuel can be too rich and lose power. Long cuts with long bars need more fuel than cutting 8x8". You can tune a 372 to 15.5k for cutting cookies and it is fine. Try that with a 32" bar and 30" of wood and it's toast. *The hotter they get the leaner they get.* I'm pretty sure that's the point Moparmyway is trying to make.


 
I disagree with his point (in bold). How would they get leaner? Is less fuel getting mixed with the incoming air charge or is more air being brought into the combustion chamber some how?


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> I disagree. How would they get leaner? Is less fuel getting mixed with the incoming air charge or is more air being brought into the combustion chamber some how?


Are you running modded cylinders ?.

Somehow more air must be brought in somewhere on this one .


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I cut every year in below zero weather. Saws run good and you don't have to worry about getting sweaty!


 I prefer to cut firewood in cooler weather, below 50F to me, but usually that's hunting weather...squirrels and deer. I try to cut in the spring so it'll all be dry by fireplace time. If you run a little rich it'll keep the mosquitos off!


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Brad, Any idea on why this would make a differance?


 It would prevent moisture, if present, from freezing.


----------



## Marshy

Outlaw5.0 said:


> That 14.7 stoich does not apply to pump E10 fuels which have a stoich of 14.0-14.20. Lamda of 1.000 is stoich and .850 is usually 11.9-12.07 with pump E10 fuels. Most still go off the non E10 fuel so I thought this info may be of some help.


You bring up a good point because different fuels will differ in stoich. I run non-E but its 91 octane which would have a different stoich from 89 E-10 and subsiquently the two would have a different best torque curves.

My main point is adding more fuel does not give you more power if you've already optimized the air/fuel ratio. The only way to get more power from the engine is to burn more charge - the mixture of *FUEL AND AIR*.

The running limits of the engine are generally around lambda 1.2 on the lean side, and lambda 0.65 on the rich side. Outside of this region combustion becomes unstable, and eventually the engine starts to misfire as there is either too little or too much fuel for stable combustion.


----------



## mdavlee

redbull660 said:


> anyone have info on lowest temp some of these oils can be used at?
> 
> Stihl shows -38F "pour point". Not sure if that would be the number though.
> 
> 
> I asked belray how low I could go with H1R...
> 
> Redbull says -
> 
> Sir,
> 
> is there a lowest temp stat that one would consider if you were using at say -30F below? yeah I know...but the truth is I have done cutting at those temps.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Belray -
> 
> Yes we have that data for our 2-stroke oils. The H1-R experiences some additive dropout at -42°C (-44°F), but none was seen before that point during the cooldown range. Now, it may still be usable past that temperature as it wasn’t the entire bulk of oil that separated, but since some additives dropped out, we would not suggest running it at that temperature or lower because of the possible risk.


Motul tech last December told me -54° for 800 off road. Said the snowmobile formula was for even colder.


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> Are you running modded cylinders ?.
> 
> Somehow more air must be brought in somewhere on this one .
> View attachment 419480


The extra air passes through the carb first right? All those squiggly passages increase the pumping efficiency so a larger charge of fuel and air can be brought in and more power can be made. Its not like those cause the saw to become lean as the saw heats up.


----------



## mdavlee

Marshy said:


> I disagree with his point (in bold). How would they get leaner? Is less fuel getting mixed with the incoming air charge or is more air being brought into the combustion chamber some how?


Can you tune a cold engine?


----------



## Marshy

mdavlee said:


> Can you tune a cold engine?


Of course you can but why would you?


----------



## mdavlee

Marshy said:


> Of course you can but why would you?


That's my point. If you tune it when it's not at full heat like a milling cut or a 2-3 minute cut in 60" wood then it can go lean there. That's the only thing I was saying.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm gonna compare this to Lucas semi synthetic. Lucas is 70% petroleum oil and 30% syntheics and has a flashpoint of 175., 7.5 viscosity @ 100°c. $9.99 a quart


Super M is a synthetic blend of 60% ester synthetic and 40% petroleum oil and has a flashpoint of 230, 12.30 visocsity @ 100°c. $11.99 a liter


----------



## redbull660

why would you want to burn a petroleum product...ash left over when it's burnt = build up inside. If there are oils out there that avoid build up...why wouldn't you go for said oils?

------------------------------------------------------------------------


looking at Stihl Ultra MSDS
http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf


page 2 -
Base Oil: Trimethylolpropane Complex Ester 80-90%
Additive Mixture 0-20%

no mention of solvents. from what im reading solvents are put in oils to help with injectors. obviously saws don't have injectors.

*Point or Question - *should we even consider oils out there with solvents? This would take yamalube, maxima k2 and a few others out of the running.

I'm sure someone is going to come on here and disagree and that's fine. But at least support the reason why you think a engine without injectors ie. namely a chainsaw should use oil with solvents. I want a real reason. Not some half azz remark like oh it doesn't hurt it or it doesn't matter.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Isn't all oil that isn't synthetic petro based? It looks better on paper than Lucas and Lucas has worked great for me and many others here, pics have been posted of internals using Lucas, see anything you didn't like?

I will use K2 and Lucas or possibly Super M depending on MY observation in MY saws for MY use which is 6-8 hours a day.

Feel free to test whatever oils you'd like making a couple cuts in a big log, and use the results to choose your oil. You guys are way overlooking all this oil stuff and in it way over your head and will never come to a conclusion everyone is happy with.

I'm not knocking your testing at all, i'm interested in what you come up with, but for my use the result will mean nothing at all.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> why would you want to burn a petroleum product...ash left over when it's burnt = build up inside. If there are oils out there that avoid build up...why wouldn't you go for said oils?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> page 2 -
> Base Oil: Trimethylolpropane Complex Ester 80-90%
> Additive Mixture 0-20%
> 
> no mention of solvents. from what im reading solvents are put in oils to help with injectors. obviously saws don't have injectors.
> 
> *Point or Question - *should we even consider oils out there with solvents? This would take yamalube, maxima k2 and a few others out of the running.


If K2 and Yamalube is good enough for a Pro MX race team its surely good enough in a chainsaw.

I have no soild info or reasoning or answer your seeking to back any reason why i use what i use.

All i'm gonna say its @ 40:1 you'll never blow a motor under normal conditions using any oil, mineral, synthetic, or semi synthetic.


----------



## Andyshine77

The difference in volume between 44:1 and 32:1. A bit less than one ounce.


----------



## porsche965

The question is through the time it takes to burn a gallon of fuel with this much less oil will the saw components notice it with appropriate tune? 

I bet with 100:1 you would need a larger bottle


----------



## MustangMike

Chris, let me know when you want theAMSOIL Saber back (Ha,Ha,Ha).

I checked the fluids and started all 4 saws today, but I postponed the the cutting planned for tomorrow to Sat due to the rain forecast.


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> The extra air passes through the carb first right? All those squiggly passages increase the pumping efficiency so a larger charge of fuel and air can be brought in and more power can be made. Its not like those cause the saw to become lean as the saw heats up.


This saw revs a little higher than my normal modded work saws ,so more protection may be required from extra heat it produces ,i mostly posted the pic to but your balls on the more air thing ,It is ok not to take this stuff so serious you know


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> why would you want to burn a petroleum product...ash left over when it's burnt = build up inside. If there are oils out there that avoid build up...why wouldn't you go for said oils?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> looking at Stihl Ultra MSDS
> http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
> 
> 
> page 2 -
> Base Oil: Trimethylolpropane Complex Ester 80-90%
> Additive Mixture 0-20%
> 
> no mention of solvents. from what im reading solvents are put in oils to help with injectors. obviously saws don't have injectors.
> 
> *Point or Question - *should we even consider oils out there with solvents? This would take yamalube, maxima k2 and a few others out of the running.
> 
> I'm sure someone is going to come on here and disagree and that's fine. But at least support the reason why you think a engine without injectors ie. namely a chainsaw should use oil with solvents. I want a real reason. Not some half azz remark like oh it doesn't hurt it or it doesn't matter.


Solvents are typically added to premix oils to keep the components from seperating.None of the oils talked about in this thread are injector oils, so once again your information is false. And it would be silly to not consider using an oil with a diluent.
As for ash, petroleum oils and synthetic oils can all leave carbon deposits. I posted a pic earlier of a piston run on H1R that was coated in heavy carbon buildup in places it shouldn't be. It happens, even with synthetics. The idea that synthetics are much cleaner than petroleum based oils was very true in the days when petroleum bright stock was used as a anti scuff additive. The lines gave considerable blurred now that PIB has replaced bright stock. It's very common now to have syn blend oils that are cleaner than full ester oils.


----------



## KenJax Tree

MustangMike said:


> Chris, let me know when you want theAMSOIL Saber back (Ha,Ha,Ha).


Its all yours Mike[emoji3]

We worked in the rain most of the day it wasn't a hard rain just a light steady rain, it was raining to hard to work but not hard enough to not work, you know what i mean.[emoji1]


----------



## bwalker

One other thing to consider. MSDS do not list all the components present. They only list those that are hazardous.


----------



## super3

KenJax Tree said:


> All i'm gonna say its @ 40:1 you'll never blow a motor under normal conditions using any oil, mineral, synthetic, or semi synthetic.




If you mean stock, your statement is true.


Ported, don't count on it.


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair

Good GAWD you people still going on about this.  Get a life.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Solvents are typically added to premix oils to keep the components from seperating.None of the oils talked about in this thread are injector oils, so once again your information is false. And it would be silly to not consider using an oil with a diluent.
> As for ash, petroleum oils and synthetic oils can all leave carbon deposits. I posted a pic earlier of a piston run on H1R that was coated in heavy carbon buildup in places it shouldn't be. It happens, even with synthetics. The idea that synthetics are much cleaner than petroleum based oils was very true in the days when petroleum bright stock was used as a anti scuff additive. The lines gave considerable blurred now that PIB has replaced bright stock. It's very common now to have syn blend oils that are cleaner than full ester oils.




Sounds like you need solvents...so then I'd have to ask, why doesn't the following oils have any solvents? 

motul 800
maxima 927
belray H1R 
Stihl Ultra

might be others I haven't check yet.

H1R build up - well maybe it shouldn't be run so heavy ie. 32:1 since it doesn't have any solvents to dilute the actual oil by volume content. You dump enough oil in a saw it's going to have build up no matter what kind of Base fluid the oil is comprised of.


----------



## KenJax Tree

super3 said:


> If you mean stock, your statement is true.
> 
> 
> Ported, don't count on it.


Like i said earlier if pro MX teams can use 40:1 or even 50:1 in their high performance bikes so can a chainsaw.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Sounds like you need solvents...so then I'd have to ask, why doesn't the following oils have any solvents?
> 
> motul 800
> maxima 927
> belray H1R
> Stihl Ultra
> 
> might be others I haven't check yet.
> 
> H1R build up - well maybe it shouldn't be run so heavy ie. 32:1 since it doesn't have any solvents to dilute the actual oil by volume content. You dump enough oil in a saw it's going to have build up no matter what kind of Base fluid the oil is comprised of.


How do you know none of these have solvents?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Sounds like you need solvents...so then I'd have to ask, why doesn't the following oils have any solvents?
> 
> motul 800
> maxima 927
> belray H1R
> Stihl Ultra
> 
> might be others I haven't check yet.
> 
> H1R build up - well maybe it shouldn't be run so heavy ie. 32:1 since it doesn't have any solvents to dilute the actual oil by volume content. You dump enough oil in a saw it's going to have build up no matter what kind of Base fluid the oil is comprised of.


H1R is designed specifically for motocross bikes and those bikes are speced with a 32:1 or lower ratio. Belray actually reccomends these ratios as well. The stuff is just a dirty burning oil.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> How do you know none of these have solvents?



maybe because solvents are hazardous and would be listed on the msds. regardless of how small a %.

What proof do you have that they do have solvents in them? Don't try and discount or discredit my reason as your proof. Show me the proof that they do indeed have them.




bwalker said:


> H1R is designed specifically for motocross bikes and those bikes are speced with a 32:1 or lower ratio. Belray actually reccomends these ratios as well. The stuff is just a dirty burning oil.



Funny because *they told me *to try several ratios and that I'd probably end up at 42:1.


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> Like i said earlier if pro MX teams can use 40:1 or even 50:1 in their high performance bikes so can a chainsaw.


Try 50:1 in a 390xp and see how long the bottom end lasts.

Less than an ounce of oil isn't going to make a saw run 3 seconds slower, the operator, the wood and tuning will. 

Just mixed a fresh batch of K2 at 32:1 man my saws don't even make enough power to spin the chain. Maybe I need to reset the chain break.[emoji6]


----------



## maulhead

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Good GAWD you people still going on about this.  Get a life.



I got's  and  all ready for page 100,,, and beyond...


----------



## super3

KenJax Tree said:


> Like i said earlier if pro MX teams can use 40:1 or even 50:1 in their high performance bikes so can a chainsaw.



You are entitled to your opinion. 

Someone a with a whole lot more knowledge than me figured out that a higher mix eliminated lower rod failures in a few saw models.


----------



## porsche965

If Husqvarna makes their HP oil to be used at 50:1 and the 390XP bearings are failing on that ratio then is the oil weak or the bearings?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> maybe because solvents are hazardous and would be listed on the msds. regardless of how small a %.
> 
> What proof do you have that they do have solvents in them? Don't try and discount or discredit my reason as your proof. Show me the proof that they do indeed have them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny because *they told me *to try several ratios and that I'd probably end up at 42:1.


Many times the solvents are listed under "performance additives" or simular verbage.
You do a fine job discrediting yourself without my help!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Andyshine77 said:


> Try 50:1 in a 390xp and see how long the bottom end lasts.
> 
> Less than an ounce of oil isn't going to make a saw run 3 seconds slower, the operator, the wood and tuning will.
> 
> Just mixed a fresh batch of K2 at 32:1 man my saws don't even make enough power to spin the chain. Maybe I need to reset the chain break.[emoji6]


I agree on more oil Andy. I'm just saying any saws run on any of the oils in this thread are gonna run forever @ 40:1 and even most likely any oil you put in it. So debating what oil @ 32:1 is gonna blow it up is nonsense. I think tuning might play a bigger role blowing up a saw than the oil.
But again i'm up not up to snuff on all this oil stuff, just speaking from my experience.


----------



## CR888

Kenjax makes a valid point, l am yet to even hear of a catostrophic failure that can be blamed on any oil no matter what bottle it comes in. Expensive missleading overpriced oils marketed to the hearts of enthusiasts are the clear winners in this thread. Money makes the world go round!


----------



## CR888

Don't forget gents, a lot of the oils mentioned in this thread are centred around keeping power valves clean. OEM's like clean power valves extending service intervals.


----------



## blsnelling

Look at the specs on Woodland Pro Synthetic. Not too impressive looking numbers huh? Well, it protected a stock MS441 used extensively for milling with the carb limiters intact, and no muffler mod to let the heat out. There were LOTS of signs of heat, but no scoring. That'll tell you just how much we're overthinking this, myself included.

*Woodland Pro synthetic- **http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf*
performance additive = 5-12%
high flash solvent = 22-27%
base oil - synthetic = 45-57%
Blue Dye = ~ .5%
Low smoke additive = 30-40%
fuel stabilizer - less than 2%

Flash Point = 210F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.2


----------



## DexterDay

blsnelling said:


> Look at the specs on Woodland Pro Synthetic. Not too impressive looking numbers huh? Well, it protected a stock MS441 used extensively for milling with the carb limiters intact, and no muffler mod to let the heat out. There were LOTS of signs of heat, but no scoring. That'll tell you just how much we're overthinking this, myself included.
> 
> *Woodland Pro synthetic- **http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf*
> performance additive = 5-12%
> high flash solvent = 22-27%
> base oil - synthetic = 45-57%
> Blue Dye = ~ .5%
> Low smoke additive = 30-40%
> fuel stabilizer - less than 2%
> 
> Flash Point = 210F
> Visc @ 40c = unknown
> Visc @ 100c = 7.2



Amen.....


----------



## Andyshine77

Looking under the piston can tell us a lot!! From the little I've worked on strato engines, they seem to deal with heat and lean tuning very well.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Looking under the piston can tell us a lot!! From the little I've worked on strato engines, they seem to deal with heat and lean tuning very well.


Yes, it was run lean.


----------



## blsnelling

That bad boy was hot! It lived it's life like that. He milled most of the lumber to build his house with that saw.


----------



## bwalker

Like I have said before. The film strength issue was solved with two strokes years ago and now its mostly about preventing deposits.


----------



## KG441c




----------



## huskihl

KG441c said:


> View attachment 419573


You have a voice mail. Making sure you knew that. Too busy wrapped up in the MOAOT.


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> So basically this is your reply.
> 
> Meanwhile...
> View attachment 419468


   
Marshy,
You are a funny dude. 
You know, it took me about an hour to put that post together, and you shoot it down with 2 pictures. 
My heart is broken. 

I see what you are saying, but I don't think that your way is the best way. I believe mine is ............ but that's why we have 64 colors in the large box of Crayola crayons.

You like setting your saw to what you believe is the best tune, then run whatever you want for a bar, just your preference. I used to think that way, but cutting lots of stumps made me think differently

At the end of the day, we both cut wood and have some saws to clean.
I hope your saws live a long and prosperous life, I know mine will.


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> The difference in volume between 44:1 and 32:1. A bit less than one ounce.
> 
> View attachment 419511


So, youre running Lucas !!


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> I disagree with his point (in bold). How would they get leaner? Is less fuel getting mixed with the incoming air charge or is more air being brought into the combustion chamber some how?


Here is what I believe happens ...........
The incoming mix of atomized fuel/oil meets the hot piston and cylinder wall. Some of that atomized fuel/oil mix is vaporized when it hits the hot piston/cylinder wall ; which cools the piston and cylinder wall (latent heat and change of state principles)

The hotter the piston and cylinder wall is, more of the atomized fuel that is vaporized.

Most of the different vapors do combust, but at different rates than the atomized charge.

This is where additional fuel is needed to prevent the engine from leaning out due to the increased vaporization of fuel/oil charge, necessitating more atomized fuel to combust properly.


OK, I doused my clothes with fire retardant, so let the flaming begin !!!!!!


----------



## blsnelling

Mornin' gents. It's Friday!


----------



## MustangMike

Brad, what ratio did that 441 run? I milled most of the Ash posts & beams (from logs) for my pole style cabin with a stock 441 (non-M Tronic). It did just fine, was using Stihl synthetic at 50:1 at the time.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm not sure, but would assume 50:1.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Here is what I believe happens ...........operation the incoming mix of atomized fuel/oil meets the hot piston and cylinder wall. Some of that atomized fuel/oil mix is vaporized when it hits the hot piston/cylinder wall ; which cools the piston and cylinder wall (latent heat and change of state principles)
> 
> The hotter the piston and cylinder wall is, more of the atomized fuel that is vaporized.
> 
> Most of the different vapors do combust, but at different rates than the atomized charge.
> 
> This is where additional fuel is needed to prevent the engine from leaning out due to the increased vaporization of fuel/oil charge, necessitating more atomized fuel to combust properly.
> 
> 
> OK, I doused my clothes with fire retardant, so let the flaming begin !!!!!!


The vast majority of the atomized fuel entering the engine vaporises as soon as it enters the motor during normal operation and your description of what happens is spot on. The main reason a two stroke smokes alot at start up is because the engine isn't warm enough and liquid fuel makes it to the combustion chamber where it doesn't fully combust. So your theory is incorrect.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> the engine isn't WA enough and liquid fuel makes it to the combustion chamber where it doesn't fully combust. So your theory is incorrect.


What does WA stand for ?
How does "liquid fuel" get to be liquid after the carb and its venturi atomizes it ?
Lets just pretend that your "liquid" theory is correct ............... if it were liquid, you would hydraulic lock the motor.
So your theory is incorrect


----------



## bwalker

warm enough.. Damn smart phone. After the carb fuel is in liquid droplet form.
This isnt a theory, this is how it works...


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> The main reason a two stroke smokes alot at start up is because the engine isn't warm enough and liquid fuel makes it to the combustion chamber where it doesn't fully combust.





bwalker said:


> After the carb fuel is in liquid droplet form.
> This isnt a theory, this is how it works...


First its "liquid fuel", now you are backpeddaling to "liquid droplets"

definition of atomized is; to reduce to tiny particles or fine spray .......... lets see how many more posts it takes you to clarify how your "liquid fuel doesn't fully combust" in an engine that isn't warm enough ..........NOBODY said anything about a 2 cycle smoking on startup ....we all know how the choke works........ the discussion is centered on how a 2 cycle runs leaner when it gets real hot; like milling compared to normal operation

You said that my theory was incorrect and are trying to use a cold motor at startup as your basis ?

Nothing like a deflection to attempt to make yourself look good, unless; if you get caught, of course.


----------



## cuttinties




----------



## KG441c

The hotter it gets the more evaporation will occur which would mean less lubrication if im reading right? The hotter the leaner it would become


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> The hotter it gets the more evaporation will occur which would mean less lubrication if im reading right? The hotter the leaner it would become


My understanding is that the hotter it gets inside the combustion chamber, the more atomized fuel is vaporized, requiring additional atomized fuel for proper combustion. If you don't add additional fuel, it gets more lean as it gets hotter

(cool atomized fuel/oil hitting hot piston and cylinder walls; think of spraying water from a squirt bottle on a hot stove element. The hotter the element gets, the faster the spray flashes off into a vapor or steam)


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> First its "liquid fuel", now you are backpeddaling to "liquid droplets"
> 
> definition of atomized is; to reduce to tiny particles or fine spray .......... lets see how many more posts it takes you to clarify how your "liquid fuel doesn't fully combust" in an engine that isn't warm enough ..........NOBODY said anything about a 2 cycle smoking on startup ....we all know how the choke works........ the discussion is centered on how a 2 cycle runs leaner when it gets real hot; like milling compared to normal operation
> 
> You said that my theory was incorrect and are trying to use a cold motor at startup as your basis ?
> 
> Nothing like a deflection to attempt to make yourself look good, unless; if you get caught, of course.


Atomised, liquid droplet, mist.. its all the same thing. Fuel in its liquid state before it vaporizes ie turns into a gas...
And your theory is incorrect because what you describe happens in a normally functioin motor all the time.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Atomised, liquid droplet, mist.. its all the same thing. Fuel in its liquid state before it vaporizes ie turns into a gas...
> And your theory is incorrect because what you describe happens in a normally functioin motor all the time.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh..................we are finally getting somewhere

1. So you do agree that the hotter it gets inside the motor and cylinder, the faster the atomized fuel vaporizes ??

2. According to you, my incorrect theory happens in a normally functioning motor all the time ??


----------



## bwalker

Yes and yes. Where you are incorrect is linking this to an increased demand for fuel under load.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> My understanding is that the hotter it gets inside the combustion chamber, the more atomized fuel is vaporized, requiring additional atomized fuel for proper combustion. If you don't add additional fuel, it gets more lean as it gets hotter
> 
> (cool atomized fuel/oil hitting hot piston and cylinder walls; think of spraying water from a squirt bottle on a hot stove element. The hotter the element gets, the faster the spray flashes off into a vapor or steam)


And this is where you go off the tracks. In a normaly running motor at normal operating temp most all of the fuel is vaporised. Under heavy load you may vaporise the very small amount fuel that typically isn't vaporised, but this would make the motor go rich, not lean.


----------



## Andyshine77

Moparmyway said:


> So, youre running Lucas !!


Nope! That was just some cheap oil someone gave me, it's pretty good at keeping the weeds down.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Yes and yes. Where you are incorrect is linking this to an increased demand for fuel under load.


Then please explain why I need more fuel to keep cool when milling


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> View attachment 419573


$1.23 at Walmart


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> View attachment 419573


 
I'll probably try this one next after I use all my 800 off-road. Keith, let me know if that Walmart 2-cycle works well in that Hybrid?


----------



## redbull660

ok guys..for those who have been waiting...

Just got back, I did the oil test H1R 50:1 vs 45:1 vs 40:1 vs 32:1 with my 361. uploading the vids. there are about 40 short clips. will take a while. data is interesting for sure.

i'd post the data but the vids tell the whole story.


I'm starting the uploads... And heading back out to do some more tests. We'll see what I can get done.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> ok guys..for those who have been waiting...
> 
> Just got back, I did the oil test H1R 50:1 vs 45:1 vs 40:1 vs 32:1 with my 361. uploading the vids. there are about 40 short clips. will take a while. data is interesting for sure.
> 
> i'd post the data but the vids tell the whole story.
> 
> 
> I'm starting the uploads... And heading back out to do some more tests. We'll see what I can get done.


Conclusion?


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> ok guys..for those who have been waiting...
> 
> Just got back, I did the oil test H1R 50:1 vs 45:1 vs 40:1 vs 32:1 with my 361. uploading the vids. there are about 40 short clips. will take a while. data is interesting for sure.
> 
> i'd post the data but the vids tell the whole story.
> 
> 
> I'm starting the uploads... And heading back out to do some more tests. We'll see what I can get done.


Run any tests with a ported saw 70+cc?


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> Conclusion?




I'm not here to make conclusions for you guys. You guys can check the data and decide for yourselves. I'm not here to prove anything either.

I'm only doing this because I want to know what is best in my saws. Since I'm already doing it, I don't mind sharing, especially if it helps others.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> I'm not here to make conclusions for you guys. You guys can check the data and decide for yourselves. I'm not here to prove anything either.
> 
> I'm only doing this because I want to know what is best in my saws. Since I'm already doing it, I don't mind sharing, especially if it helps others.


 True and I appreciate the testing. I'll eventually get around to testing my ported saws....59cc - 90cc's.


----------



## MustangMike

I don't see anything, I guess it is coming ?????


----------



## KenJax Tree

2.5 gallons of mix using Maxima Super M synthetic blend with solvents and petroleum oil so far and you'll never believe what happened[emoji53]












They ran, cut, and idled as they should.[emoji33]


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> 2.5 gallons of mix using Maxima Super M synthetic blend with solvents and petroleum oil so far and you'll never believe what happened[emoji53]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They ran, cut, and idled as they should.[emoji33]


 I remember as a kid watching my Dad cut firewood with an old Homelite. The saw hardly had any paint left on it which he inherited from his Dad. His Dad was a Logger and used it logging. My Dad used the cheapest oil he could find and I don't remember any major maintenance issues with that saw. I'm not sure what brand of oil he used but it worked fine. And I'm also certain he wouldn't be spending money on ester based high viscosity oils like I am. The only 2-cycle oil I remember using as a youngster was that blue colored Belray MC1 in my Honda CR-80. The old days.


----------



## Trx250r180

Guy at the bike shop recommended this stuff ,made not far from here ,says on teardown of some 250's they were very clean inside ,anyone ever try it ?


----------



## MustangMike

So Ron, I remember purchasing my Homelite 330, it was a "High Speed" Homelite, it did 5,000 RPMs!!!!!!!!

Never had a problem with my Homelites running, they were just slow and vibrated the crap out of you. I also had perpetual problems with their recoil starters, was always fixen em. I've never even replaced the cord on 044 #1.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've only had 1 rope break when i pulled it and it was on my 200T. I was about 80ft off the ground in a weird position and had to start the saw between my legs and wouldn't you know it was gonna break at that time, and i ended punching myself HARD in a pretty sensitive spotGo ahead and laugh everyone else did that saw it.


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> So Ron, I remember purchasing my Homelite 330, it was a "High Speed" Homelite, it did 5,000 RPMs!!!!!!!!
> 
> Never had a problem with my Homelites running, they were just slow and vibrated the crap out of you. I also had perpetual problems with their recoil starters, was always fixen em. I've never even replaced the cord on 044 #1.


When I was a kid I never saw a Stihl or Husqvarna in my parts of the woods. I guess nobody could afford them or they weren't available in our area. I remember my Dad's Homelite was light blue in color and heavy. It also had a manual push button oiler.


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> So Ron, I remember purchasing my Homelite 330, it was a "High Speed" Homelite, it did 5,000 RPMs!!!!!!!!
> 
> Never had a problem with my Homelites running, they were just slow and vibrated the crap out of you. I also had perpetual problems with their recoil starters, was always fixen em. I've never even replaced the cord on 044 #1.


 Hopefully I'll get a nice 044 one day. Most Loggers I talk to say the 044 was their favorite. Going back to the cold weather conditions topic a Logger told me tonight they would use transmission fluid for bar chain oil if it was really cold.


----------



## MustangMike

That must be really cold! I know they also put kerosene in diesel when it gets really cold.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Hopefully I'll get a nice 044 one day. Most Loggers I talk to say the 044 was their favorite. Going back to the cold weather conditions topic a Logger told me tonight they would use transmission fluid for bar chain oil if it was really cold.


Or cut your bar oil with a little diesel fuel.


----------



## redbull660

test results with 361 + 20" tsumura + 4 new stihl RS chains

Did 4 different logs. Cut 1 was just a couple of small cuts to make sure the saw was warmed up. Cut 2 was a larger nice pice of oak. Cut 3 I put load on the saw. Cut 4 was just a larger willow...soft. Took temp measurements after each cut. Pic of spread sheet below - (times and temps)

50:1 - This was my start point. Felt so so running. Not great. But not horrible.

45:1 felt great! - minor adjustment from the 50:1 tune.

40:1 felt pretty good - minor adjustment from 45:1 tune.

32:1 was like someone flipped a switch on the saw. Night and day compared to 40:1 tune. Saw did not like it at all. idle jumped quite a bit as did the top end. Had to really fatten things out from the 40:1 tune to get it back at 2800ish and under 14k. And even then it felt weird running. Felt like it was really running hard. I would not run this saw at 32:1 H1R again...ever.

Would highly advise watching the vids as my numbers won't tell the whole story. And I'm interested in getting thoughts/opinions. 








50:1 Tune



50:1 cuts and temps




45:1 tune - tune is showing what the saw does by just changing the gas (yes I ran the saw for a bit to get the new mix in the system)



45:1 cuts and temps




40:1 tune - tune is showing what the saw does by just changing the gas (yes I ran the saw for a bit to get the new mix in the system)




40:1 cuts and temps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvf_e-l1GV0


32:1 Tune - tune is showing what the saw does by just changing the gas (yes I ran the saw for a bit to get the new mix in the system...could definitely tell a difference right away with the 32:1...saw just started racing bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iMpBD0ymjc


32:1 cuts and temps -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsHhGshfhPc


----------



## KG441c

Looks good. Sounds like the jetting on the 660 liked 45:1


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I run stock and ported saws.

Will you guys just tell me what the nice all around number is so i dont have to mix different cans.

Thanks.


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I run stock and ported saws.
> 
> Will you guys just tell me what the nice all around number is so i dont have to mix different cans.
> 
> Thanks.


40:1 to 32:1. If I had to make a guess on these last test Id say the 660 jetting was spot on for best performance @ 45:1 with the tune Redbull set to


----------



## Trx250r180

That is not a 660


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> That is not a 660


Ok 361. Same applies saw to saw


----------



## redbull660

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I run stock and ported saws.
> 
> Will you guys just tell me what the nice all around number is so i dont have to mix different cans.
> 
> Thanks.




IMO - if the oil has a bunch of solvents in it - 32:1. If you account for the solvents its more like 40:1 of actual oil. see here for make ups of various oils - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-91#post-5320270


If the oil doesn't have a bunch of solvents in it - like R50 800 H1R - I'd guess 40-45:1.

If it's belray H1R - 40-45:1 for a stock saw. I have not tested a ported saw.


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I run stock and ported saws.
> 
> Will you guys just tell me what the nice all around number is so i dont have to mix different cans.
> 
> Thanks.


If you have a mosquito problem try 5 to 1


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> IMO - if the oil has a bunch of solvents in it - 32:1. If you account for the solvents its more like 40:1 of actual oil. see here for make ups of various oils - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-91#post-5320270
> 
> 
> If the oil doesn't have a bunch of solvents in it - like R50 800 H1R - I'd guess 40-45:1.
> 
> If it's belray H1R - 40-45:1 for a stock saw. I have not tested a ported saw.


No two cycle oil has a "bunch" of solvents in it. 0-10% typically.
You now have two anecdotal data points that H1R combusts like crap...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> No two cycle oil has a "bunch" of solvents in it. 0-10% typically.
> You now have two anecdotal data points that H1R combusts like crap...



was wondering how long it would take you to show up. 

...yeah that is why a number of oils don't have solvents. 800 h1r stihl ultra to name 3 


on the contrary - my 661 (bought new) and run with stihl ultra for 15 tanks had a nice black sooty build up on the piston. Which after 4 tanks is going away after running h1R at 45:1. I can see approx 50% of the piston head now.


----------



## DexterDay

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I run stock and ported saws.
> 
> Will you guys just tell me what the nice all around number is so i dont have to mix different cans.
> 
> Thanks.



With my vast experience and knowledge of 4 years... 

Using 38.679 to 1 is optimal for both ported and stock saws. That's if you use 87. If you use 89 or 93? I can't tell you.. Cause I never use anything but 87. 

I'm cheap


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> was wondering how long it would take you to show up.
> 
> ...yeah that is why a number of oils don't have solvents. 800 h1r stihl ultra to name 3
> 
> 
> on the contrary - my 661 (bought new) and run with stihl ultra for 15 tanks had a nice black sooty build up on the piston. Which after 4 tanks is going away after running h1R at 45:1. I can see approx 50% of the piston head now.


Hazzard to guess how many oils that are JASO FC/FD certified have solvents? I'll give you a hint.. just about all of them. Notice your beloved H1R isn't on the list? Because it's a early 90's tech oil and a mediocre at best 90's tech oil at that.


----------



## redbull660

well according to the msds 800 h1r stihl ultra do not.

you said 0-10% ...man I'd have guess yamalube is over that! So does the piston turn blue from the dye? lol

Ok well im off to go do some more meaningless tests! 
*
Yamalube *- https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

additive mixture = 16-20%
Pour Depressant mixture = <.5%
Solvent = 10-15%
Base Oil = 54-75%
Blue Dye = <.5%


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well according to the msds 800 h1r stihl ultra do not.
> 
> you said 0-10% ...man I'd have guess yamalube is over that! So does the piston turn blue from the dye? lol
> 
> Ok well im off to go do some more meaningless tests!
> *
> Yamalube *- https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf
> 
> additive mixture = 16-20%
> Pour Depressant mixture = <.5%
> Solvent = 10-15%
> Base Oil = 54-75%
> Blue Dye = <.5%


Wouldn't be the first time you guessed and were wrong...


----------



## KenJax Tree

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I run stock and ported saws.
> 
> Will you guys just tell me what the nice all around number is so i dont have to mix different cans.
> 
> Thanks.


Keep it simple EZ....3.5oz 36:1 or 3oz 42:1. 42:1 with Maxima K2 or Lucas but trying Maxima Super M right now, its a semi synthetic but with ester based synthetic and looks a little better on paper.


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> Keep it simple EZ....3.5oz 36:1 or 3oz 42:1. 42:1 with Maxima K2 or Lucas but trying Maxima Super M right now, its a semi synthetic but with ester based synthetic and looks a little better on paper.
> 
> But i'm just a hack with ASI and TCIA certs and not an oil guru so my opinion is invalid....carry on[emoji2]


Do you have any pics of anything run on K2 that you could post up ?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Do you have any pics of anything run on K2 that you could post up ?


I will in the near future. I just bought a stash and plan on trying it out starting Monday.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I will in the near future. I just bought a stash and plan on trying it out starting Monday.


 Try the Motul 710 yet?


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I will in the near future. I just bought a stash and plan on trying it out starting Monday.


With your bike background have you ever tested this stuff ? Guy at the bike shop said has had good luck with it ,for keeping internals clean .May be overkill for the saws .
http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/dtp-synthetic-racing-oil/
spec sheet 
http://dumondetech.com/new-dumonde/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/dtp_MSDS.pdf


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Try the Motul 710 yet?


No, that will be after k2


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> With your bike background have you ever tested this stuff ? Guy at the bike shop said has had good luck with it ,for keeping internals clean .May be overkill for the saws .
> http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/dtp-synthetic-racing-oil/
> spec sheet
> http://dumondetech.com/new-dumonde/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/dtp_MSDS.pdf


Never heard of it.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Never heard of it.


when i was racing mx ,i used this brand in my 250r for the clutch ,with the honda brand trans fluid ,the red stuff ,it would be black after 1 race ,i was told to try the dumonde tech trans fluid ,the bike shops stock it here ,and i could go several races before it changed color and my clutches lasted much longer ,always ran 927 in the fuel ,so this is mix new to me ,looks like they have a castor blend also ,i am going to mix some up this weekend ,hopefully get some tanks of fuel tested ,as long as i do not have too many honey do's to do.


----------



## bwalker

To be honest, once I find something that works well I don't feel the need to try everything under the sun. Last 5 years or so it's been mostly 2R.


----------



## rjames

Found this about 15 years ago, never needed to try anything else
8oz. Per gallon and let er rip tater chip. No bugs and no one wants to be around you


----------



## Ron660

rjames said:


> View attachment 419842
> Found this about 15 years ago, never needed to try anything else
> 8oz. Per gallon and let er rip tater chip. No bugs and no one wants to be around you


 16:1 ?


----------



## bwalker

rjames said:


> View attachment 419842
> Found this about 15 years ago, never needed to try anything else
> 8oz. Per gallon and let er rip tater chip. No bugs and no one wants to be around you


That Lawnboy oil is some smokey stuff. Still remember cutting grass in a haze of blue smoke. I use penzoil syn outboard oil in my newer Lawnboy at 32:1 with good results and no smoke once warmed up.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> 16:1 ?


Shifters run good at 16:1..


----------



## redbull660

was out with the 660. 660 seems more receptive to 32:1 H1R. Less receptive to 50:1. ...just didn't feel good at 50:1. I've gotta find some better wood to test on. This cotton wood is huge but it's junk...and well the 660 doesn't have the balls to pull the 36" 404 full comp like the 661 does. 

Might be the quad jug 361 (361 is quad right?) 661 not liking the 32:1 and the old school 660 does? If I can find some decent wood I'll try 32 vs 40 vs 45. Just don't see 50 as worth the time on the 660 after using it at 40 and 32:1 earlier today.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> was out with the 660. 660 seems more receptive to 32:1 H1R. Less receptive to 50:1. ...just didn't feel good at 50:1. I've gotta find some better wood to test on. This cotton wood is huge but it's junk...and well the 660 doesn't have the balls to pull the 36" 404 full comp like the 661 does.
> 
> Might be the quad jug 361 (361 is quad right?) 661 not liking the 32:1 and the old school 660 does? If I can find some decent wood I'll try 32 vs 40 vs 45. Just don't see 50 as worth the time on the 660 after using it at 40 and 32:1 earlier today.


I'd like to see the test run with another brand of oil.. I'll provide the oil.


----------



## Metals406

I used oil one time.

It was slick.


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> Do you have any pics of anything run on K2 that you could post up ?


I posted some somewhere of the exhaust side skirt on my 550 with 32:1 k2. Don't know which site it's on though.


----------



## rjames

Ron660 said:


> 16:1 ?


I was just playin'. You guys are so serious about this. If I had the time you guys have to dink around with this stuff I'd be a happy man.
My old ass two stroke lawn boy mower still runs and I just put whatever I've got in the tank. It's great for brushin' and bug foggin'.

Plus that lawn boy oil leaves your skin nice and smooth, it's ashless

KL200 is still my saw oil of choice. Cheap enough and clean. Nary a problem for many years.


----------



## redbull660

well good news is I got the 660 done. Bad news is I'm outta good size logs so the 661 redo is going to have to wait.

32:1 in the 660 did not cause the drastic change from 40:1 to 32:1 in the tune like the 361. Saw seemed fine. 50:1 tried earlier felt to lean I guess. So I didn't do it.

40:1 seems to be the sweet spot for the 660 ...at least mine...a stock with dp muff mod.

I would mention that the guy from Belray said I'd probably settle on 42:1. Where he gets 42? I dunno but I'd say he's basically dead on for both saws. 660 liked 40, 361 liked 45. Maybe the quad has something to do with the 45 and the old school 660 liking the 40? 








here's the 361 data again


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> well good news is I got the 660 done. Bad news is I'm outta good size logs so the 661 redo is going to have to wait.
> 
> 32:1 in the 660 did not cause the drastic change from 40:1 to 32:1 in the tune like the 361. Saw seemed fine. 50:1 tried earlier felt to lean I guess. So I didn't do it.
> 
> 40:1 seems to be the sweet spot for the 660 ...at least mine...a stock with dp muff mod.
> 
> I would mention that the guy from Belray said I'd probably settle on 42:1. Where he gets 42? I dunno but I'd say he's basically dead on for both saws. 660 liked 40, 361 liked 45. Maybe the quad has something to do with the 45 and the old school 660 liking the 40?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here's the 361 data again


Maybe because 42:1 is an easy mix.....3oz per gallon?? But i doubt it


----------



## blsnelling

I talked to a super knowledgeable Stihl dealer/owner/mechanic today. I've known him since my Dad bought his saws new from him in the mid 90s. He's a Stihl Gold certified mechanic. Add to this, his son is a engineer that did his internship at Stihl in Virginia Beach, so has some insider information. Stihl has done testing and found that a saw runs 80° hotter with 32:1 than 50:1. He's a firm believer in 50:1 with TODAY'S oils. The reason that there are more BTUs in the oil and therefore burns hotter. I'm still not comfortable giving up the added protection and lubrication the added oil gives, especially in the bottom end.


----------



## porsche965

I thought somewhere in this huge thread someone said oil don't burn/combust?

My non-scientific infared readings from 70cc ported saws came up with warmer temps too using 42:1 vs. 50:1 also. Didn't try 32:1.

My Dealer is a high volume dealer because he supplies a large amount of loggers that buy there saws from him. For the most part they all use Ultra and he has had no engine failures due to lack of oil at 50:1. Typically most professional loggers will not use anything more than the spec amount of oil in their saws. They are too cheap. I said "most," not all lol.


----------



## bwalker

Makes sense if you are making more power as more oil in the mix has been proven to provide for.
On the BTU point. True, two cycle oil could have a higher BTU content, but the differance between 32 and 50:1 is pretty paltry.One other point rarely considered is that fact in order for oil to burn it has to change from a liquid to a gas and this takes heat out of the motor to do this just as gasoline does the same thing. The differance is oil takes much more heat than gasoline to change phases.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I thought somewhere in this huge thread someone said oil don't burn/combust?
> 
> My non-scientific infared readings from 70cc ported saws came up with warmer temps too using 42:1 vs. 50:1 also. Didn't try 32:1.
> 
> My Dealer is a high volume dealer because he supplies a large amount of loggers that buy there saws from him. For the most part they all use Ultra and he has had no engine failures due to lack of oil at 50:1. Typically most professional loggers will not use anything more than the spec amount of oil in their saws. They are too cheap. I said "most," not all lol.


Two cycle oils do indeed combust or you wouldn't get the sweet smell of castor or Klotz in your exhaust.. Of course some oils don't fully combust.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Two cycle oils do indeed combust or you wouldn't get the sweet smell of castor or Klotz in your exhaust.. Of course some oils don't fully combust.



That's what I thought as well.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> was out with the 660. 660 seems more receptive to 32:1 H1R. Less receptive to 50:1. ...just didn't feel good at 50:1. I've gotta find some better wood to test on. This cotton wood is huge but it's junk...and well the 660 doesn't have the balls to pull the 36" 404 full comp like the 661 does.
> 
> Might be the quad jug 361 (361 is quad right?) 661 not liking the 32:1 and the old school 660 does? If I can find some decent wood I'll try 32 vs 40 vs 45. Just don't see 50 as worth the time on the 660 after using it at 40 and 32:1 earlier today.


For all the time and effort you are going through ............ a Hardline tach on saws that are being operated by someone "testing" things are such a great help in tuning the saw, and some of its accessories.

I have an 066 that went to mdavlee. He left his snot inside some of it
Ever giggle real good


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> I posted some somewhere of the exhaust side skirt on my 550 with 32:1 k2. Don't know which site it's on though.


Did it look as good or better than Lucas, 800, and R50 ?


----------



## Andyshine77

You're saw felt like it was running harder with 32:1?? My friend your orange screwdriver needs porting, it's obviously lacking performance lol. Looks like some auto tunes can't compensate, or can't do so quickly.


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> Did it look as good or better than Lucas, 800, and R50 ?


About the same as lucas. 800 and R50 seem to be wetter than the others tuned to the same rpm.


----------



## DexterDay

rjames said:


> I was just playin'. You guys are so serious about this. If I had the time you guys have to dink around with this stuff I'd be a happy man.



This ^^^^


----------



## CR888

blsnelling said:


> I talked to a super knowledgeable Stihl dealer/owner/mechanic today. I've known him since my Dad bought his saws new from him in the mid 90s. He's a Stihl Gold certified mechanic. Add to this, his son is a engineer that did his internship at Stihl in Virginia Beach, so has some insider information. Stihl has done testing and found that a saw runs 80° hotter with 32:1 than 50:1. He's a firm believer in 50:1 with TODAY'S oils. The reason that there are more BTUs in the oil and therefore burns hotter. I'm still not comfortable giving up the added protection and lubrication the added oil gives, especially in the bottom end.


Good post Brad, also another thing to consider is that OEM's are specifying 50:1 in more and more applications so the additive package in oils are designed to perform best at 50:1. Also heat below a certain point can help keep a clean combustion chamber. Many blame rich oil or rich tune for build up where if they just ran their saw as intended at wot most of the time things would be fine.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


>


I thought you might appreciate confirmation of your assumptions. Maybe not.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> You're saw felt like it was running harder with 32:1?? My friend your orange screwdriver needs porting, it's obviously lacking performance lol. Looks like some auto tunes can't compete, or can't do so quickly.


Yeah, I'm calling total BS on that as well. It's called the placebo affect. WAY too many assumptions are being made in this testing.


----------



## redbull660

well maybe the oil is to thick at 32:1 and it's slowing down the piston? 

My tests are not the end all be all. If anything they should make you guys want to perform your own tests to confirm or question. Just because my results don't agree with what is expected or "known", doesn't mean they should just be written off. No one else is doing any testing or has done any tests that I've found/seen.

Like I said earlier. The only reason I'm doing this is to find what works best in my saws. Placebo effect my azz. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. I don't care about being wrong or right. I care about finding the best. Had I applied the 661 and 361 results to the 660 I wouldn't of found out that the 660 likes 40:1.


Also I don't get this line of thinking where all oils should be run at 32:1. Different make ups...solvents don't count as far the lube goes so your really not actually running 32:1. H1R and stihl and 800 much more pure.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> well maybe the oil is to thick at 32:1 and it's slowing down the piston?
> My tests are not the end all be all. If anything they should make you guys want to perform your own tests to confirm or question. Just because my results don't agree with what is expected or "known", doesn't mean they should just be written off. No one else is doing any testing or has done any tests that I've found/seen.
> 
> Like I said earlier. The only reason I'm doing this is to find what works best in my saws. Placebo effect my azz. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. I don't care about being wrong or right. I care about finding the best. Had I applied the 661 and 361 results to the 660 I wouldn't of found out that the 660 likes 40:1.
> 
> 
> Also I don't get this line of thinking where all oils should be run at 32:1. Different make ups...solvents don't count as far the lube goes so your really not actually running 32:1. H1R and stihl and 800 much more pure.


How many turns out on the h of the 660 were u redbull?


----------



## zogger

Well, I *appreciate* the testing you do.


----------



## mdavlee

1/4 turn is a good bit for a change in oil.


----------



## KG441c

The 361 may run better at 32:1 with taller jetting


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> 660 tune didn't change much.....total movement of the H...maybe 1/4 of a turn at the very most.


That is a LOT!


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> 660 tune didn't change much. little richer on idle and H as I went down from 50 to 45 to 40 to 32. No jump from 40 to 32 like with the 361.
> 
> total movement of the H...maybe 1/4 of a turn at the very most. Again I did not see the giant jump like I did with the 361. That is why I said the 660 was much more receptive to 32:1. Wasn't the best combo but it wasn't crazy like the 361. Don't know why.


 What was your WOT on the stock DP 660 for each mix?


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> That is a LOT!


Especially if the h was already too far out?


----------



## bwalker

Try a decent oil that doesn't cause combustion issues...


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> That is a LOT!


Yea...


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Try a decent oil that doesn't cause combustion issues...


I believe we will all have to eat crow and say u were right before this is done!


----------



## redbull660

mdavlee said:


> 1/4 turn is a good bit for a change in oil.



"at the very most" 

Going over to my dad's for dinner. I'll look at the saw when I get back. Limit caps are in place on the saw and I didn't hit the limit cap so 1/4 turn is probably over stating it. probably just easier/faster if I do a short video showing.



Ron660 said:


> What was your WOT on the stock DP 660 for each mix?



I tuned the saw to 13200 for each. Between 50 and 32 probably lost 300 rpm at the most. I'll just do it on video and you all can see.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> "at the very most"
> 
> Going over to my dad's for dinner. I'll look at the saw when I get back. Limit caps are in place on the saw and I didn't hit the limit cap so 1/4 turn is probably over stating it. probably just easier/faster if I do a short video showing.
> 
> 
> 
> I tuned the saw to 13200 for each. Between 50 and 32 probably lost 300 rpm at the most. I'll just do it on video and you all can see.



A 1/4 of a turn is a lot, however 300 rpm isn't much, a cool gust of wind could do that.[emoji6]


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> "at the very most"
> 
> Going over to my dad's for dinner. I'll look at the saw when I get back. Limit caps are in place on the saw and I didn't hit the limit cap so 1/4 turn is probably over stating it. probably just easier/faster if I do a short video showing.
> 
> 
> 
> I tuned the saw to 13200 for each. Between 50 and 32 probably lost 300 rpm at the most. I'll just do it on video and you all can see.[/QUOTE
> If your 660 was ported you'd be tuning higher than that. Gigantic difference between a stock 660 and a ported 660. Mine increased over 40% in HP.


----------



## bwalker

Tuning a saw using max no load rpm leaves alot to be desired IMO. I get the saw close by adjusting the high speed till it just cleans up, then I tape the tach to the handle bar and make some cuts till I find the adjustment that gives the most rpm in the cut.
1/4,or even 1/8 is a huge amount of adjustment when going from 50 to 32:1. I have read that going from 32:1 to 16:1 amounts to 1/4 of a main jet size on a Yamaha TZ-250 road racer. In my own expiereance I have never had to change a main jet when going from 32 to 20:1 on a bike. Usually just a small air screw adjustment or maybe a pilot jet


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> A 1/4 of a turn is a lot, however 300 rpm isn't much, a cool gust of wind could do that.[emoji6]



well let me just run some 50 and then some 32 and video the change in tune. The amount of tune change was important to me but not really a priority so basically I was just on guard for a large change and there wasn't. Didn't know it was so important to you guys. Anyway ya all have me curious again so we'll see what it does in the morning.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well let me just run some 50 and then some 32 and video the change in tune. The amount of tune change was important to me but not really a priority so basically I was just on guard for a large change and there wasn't. Didn't know it was so important to you guys. Anyway ya all have me curious again so we'll see what it does in the morning.


The saws state of tune is pretty important to the "test", no?


----------



## bwalker

And you wonder why anyone with half a brain questions your results...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> man your thick.


And your IQ is close to your shoe size, give or take 2 points.


----------



## blsnelling

Grow up.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Grow up.


Brad, even though Redbull is your buddy you have to see the holes in this BS test. The least of which is using a crappy oil the has well known negative effects on combustion..


----------



## blsnelling

My comment has nothing to do with RedBull. I haven't taken anyone's side in this. It's just way lame the way you are so degrading. You totally undermine anything you have to say.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> My comment has nothing to do with RedBull. I haven't taken anyone's side in this. It's just way lame the way you are so degrading. You totally undermine anything you have to say.


I only responded to his "lame" attempt at an insult.
Now, will you go on record as saying you think this test is valid? Because if you do not contradicts your own advice to your customers.


----------



## MustangMike

I'm not saying the testing has been absolutely scientific, but I think it has been painstakingly done and presented objectively, and I appreciate it.

We all learn from information, regardless if we agree with it.

It is far too easy to just be a critic. If you disagree with the information, do it in a respectful manner and provide a basis, but don't shoot the messenger.

Carry on Redbull, some of us appreciate it.

FYI, I have rec'd 2 saws back from Randy in the past year. Since I use both a different oil and ratio than Randy, I had to do a "Reset" on the M-Tronic saw to get it to run flawlessly, and had to lean out and adjust the idle on the other. This thread is helping me to understand why.


----------



## bwalker

So in a nutshell you are saying even misinformation is good because we learn from it? It's no wonder there are so many strange ideas around here..


----------



## MustangMike

I'm saying that we learn from testing, even if sometimes the results may be misleading. But w/o testing, we would just have BS!

I respect the testing, and the time it takes to do it, and the comments should be respectful.

I never inferred that you can't disagree with it. Debate can also be healthy, but lately this thread has looked more like a Dog chasing it's tail!


----------



## bwalker

Testing without adequate control of variables generates BS and nothing else.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Testing without adequate control of variables generates BS and nothing else.


And telling people that they are wrong just because you say so generates BS and nothing else.

Who crowned you as king ?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> And telling people that they are wrong just because you say so generates BS and nothing else.
> 
> Who crowned you as king ?


Another not sharp enough to see the holes in this..


----------



## porsche965

Bwalker- do you have any videos or personal testing that we could use to compare that H1R is an oil not to use? I think that opinions from a manufacturer would be more biased than real world experiences with oils and mixes. At least to me, and obviously to the rest of us that doubt, isn't that why we are on this thread lol? Yours would be appreciated. 

Lot's of Professionals feed their families with factory oils at 50:1 daily, year in and year out. 

Does anyone have any videos or personal tests that they have conducted that support their personal choice and why? Other than erring on the side of perhaps the "way more oil is safe theory." What is amazing is how few, if any, actual pictures or videos show a complete seizure. Not just some hot photos or almost failed situations. Real failures from not enough oil. 

Using more oil than necessary is like never driving your truck over 45mph in fear of the brakes failing....


----------



## KenJax Tree

I have no scientific proof or reason why i use what i use or have used in the past. I used Maxima K2 for a long time because i always had some for my dirt bike so i just used it in everything. I heard good things about Lucas and K2 is getting expensive so i tried it and liked it. Then for whatever reason i wanted to use up some K2 i had. After using Lucas at a cheap price i realized how expensive it was to keep using K2, but i like the idea of ester synthetic oil so i decided to try some Maxima Super M, its an ester based semi synthetic oil with 60% K2 and its $11 a liter, about a $1 more than a qt of Lucas (but $10 more a gallon[emoji10]) but i'm using an ester based oil. So far i like it after about 5 gallons of mix its clean, don't smoke, readily available at the bike shop in gallons (a gallon of K2 had to be ordered), and fairly cheap so thats where i am now and will probably stay with Super M. No scientific proof, reason, or explanation behind it, it just what works for me[emoji6]
Oh and 40:1.......it just works.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Using more oil than necessary is like never driving your truck over 45mph in fear of the brakes failing....



One could argue 50:1 is an EPA mandate, factory recommend obsolescence and so on. it could also be looked at, like running your truck with half the required oil.

Look we all know that a dull chain and lean tuning, will kill a saw in short order. With that said in extreme environments, more oil is factually going to extend the life of these engines. My experience from seeing the inside of these engines, I've come to my own conclusions. Added to that, the countless recommendations from other engine builders, and I do mean builders, not just someone with a grinder.

The OP is doing his best. My intention is not to shoot him down, like some have. You know who you are, and I've respect for those folks. However his lack of knowledge and basic requirements for performing a test of this nature, is quite clear.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Now, will you go on record as saying you think this test is valid? Because if you do not contradicts your own advice to your customers.


I have stated my concerns. Most critically, I think a lot of assumptions have been made without any scientific support at all. That leads to false conclusions. On the other hand, I have enjoyed seeing his findings. I think there's something to be learned there. I like that he's not afraid to buck the status quo. He's an individualist. I like that in a person. For me, I take the good and leave the bad. There's NO excuse for the repeated demeaning remarks.


----------



## CR888

Not many members these days find a thread topic that endures more than a couple of pages. This thread in short order is nearly one hundred. l thank the op for doing some tests and providing something of interest to talk about irrespective of how scientiffic the testing method is. lt would take a bit more than a camera, saw and a few logs to do anything really conclusive in any case. lf you don't like what the op is doing or have nothing nice to say there are plenty of other places to be. lf you thought at the end of this thread Belray would be coming here to understand their oil that would be a little silly.


----------



## Moparmyway

I appreciate the testing that Redbull is doing.
Nobody has had the bowls to purchase hundreds of links of chain to remove one very fluid variable like he has.
He probably went through at least 24 loops of new chain for the testing he has bent over backwards to do, as well as he could.

His testing, (regardless if you like it, want to modify it, do it differently, or hate it) used lots of chain, and we could all try to help him recover a little.
I sent him some cabbage for some of the chains with 1 cut on them, anybody else want some of his extra .404 loops ?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Another not sharp enough to see the holes in this..


So when you don't find Google usefull enough to support your sarcastic position(s), your fallback position is to throw insults.


----------



## Marshy

redbull660 said:


> "at the very most"
> 
> I tuned the saw to 13200 for each. *Between 50 and 32 probably lost 300 rpm at the most.* I'll just do it on video and you all can see.


 
So is that 300 RPM within the repeatability of your instrument? How do you know your not chasing a ghost?

So with each test that had more oil you had to lean it out slightly? Was that consistent for each brand of oil? 

When can we expect your test uncertainty analysis?

http://asq.org/quality-progress/2014/07/measure-for-measure/calculating-uncertainty.html


----------



## porsche965

Marshy said:


> So is that 300 RPM within the repeatability of your instrument? How do you know your not chasing a ghost?
> 
> So with each test that had more oil you had to lean it out slightly? Was that consistent for each brand of oil?
> 
> When can we expect your test uncertainty analysis?
> 
> http://asq.org/quality-progress/2014/07/measure-for-measure/calculating-uncertainty.html



Well that was a waste of my time.


----------



## Marshy

porsche965 said:


> Well that was a waste of my time.


 ??


----------



## porsche965

Marshy said:


> ??


This is a chainsaw forum, not NASA. And I have a very good friend that worked for them years back. And other engineering friends. I'd have to go to school for years to be able to apply such a link to a very intricate problem that may not ever exist. 

Bring on some more real world tests or pictures or failures. Keep it simple for a guy like me who never finished high school


----------



## Marshy

porsche965 said:


> This is a chainsaw forum, not NASA. And I have a very good friend that worked for them years back. And other engineering friends. I'd have to go to school for years to be able to apply such a link to a very intricate problem that may not ever exist.
> 
> Bring on some more real world tests or pictures or failures. Keep it simple for a guy like me who never finished high school


 
You dont need to be an engineer to get the take-away from that link. I didnt post it to confuse anyone but could have chosen a better example maybe... I'll sumarize...

"...there are many different statistics and figures of merit used to gauge the quality of measurement data. Of course, the well-accepted statistics of standard deviation and variance are routinely used to determine the variability of measurement data as well as to assign distributions to data to define the likelihood that these data fall within an expected interval or span.

In other words, they show that probability measurement data fall within a range of symmetrical or asymmetrical values, which are normally given in terms of percentages. These statistics are used to gain insight into measurement data. This insight is derived from an ensemble of influencing factors, including:

Drift between measurement values.
Measurement setup inconsistencies.
Ambient environmental changes between measurements.
Operator control inconsistencies between measurements.
Operator reading interpretation inconsistencies between measurements.
Instrumentation resolution rounding inconsistencies.
Calibration correction errors.
Instrumentation ranging errors.
Operating voltage and load fluctuations
*These and other influences may contribute to measurement data uncertainty, and limit the data’s usefulness.*

It is important that measurement data’s applicability to determine real-life performance of a device being tested and calibrated be qualified."

In other words, there are a lot of factors that need to be taken into account to understand if the data the OP is getting is good or just a bunch of BS (relative to documented experiements). I guess my point is these are things at a real test would account for. Does the OP have to apply all this? No... IMO he's performing an observation more than conducting a test. Therefore, its not a huge suprise that his results dont match documented tests. Take it for what its worth I guess. OP I applaud your persistency.


----------



## blsnelling

His findings match what Stihl has found.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> So when you don't find Google usefull enough to support your sarcastic position(s), your fallback position is to throw insults.


And your fallback position is to immerse yourself in ignorance. Maybe you should have took some science courses instead of making bongs in wood shop. Because if you did, you would the quickly realize this test is a joke.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Bwalker- do you have any videos or personal testing that we could use to compare that H1R is an oil not to use? I think that opinions from a manufacturer would be more biased than real world experiences with oils and mixes. At least to me, and obviously to the rest of us that doubt, isn't that why we are on this thread lol? Yours would be appreciated.
> 
> Lot's of Professionals feed their families with factory oils at 50:1 daily, year in and year out.
> 
> Does anyone have any videos or personal tests that they have conducted that support their personal choice and why? Other than erring on the side of perhaps the "way more oil is safe theory." What is amazing is how few, if any, actual pictures or videos show a complete seizure. Not just some hot photos or almost failed situations. Real failures from not enough oil.
> 
> Using more oil than necessary is like never driving your truck over 45mph in fear of the brakes failing....


I have already provided pictures. When I step in crap I don't typically video it...


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> You dont need to be an engineer to get the take-away from that link. I didnt post it to confuse anyone but could have chosen a better example maybe... I'll sumarize...
> 
> "...there are many different statistics and figures of merit used to gauge the quality of measurement data. Of course, the well-accepted statistics of standard deviation and variance are routinely used to determine the variability of measurement data as well as to assign distributions to data to define the likelihood that these data fall within an expected interval or span.
> 
> In other words, they show that probability measurement data fall within a range of symmetrical or asymmetrical values, which are normally given in terms of percentages. These statistics are used to gain insight into measurement data. This insight is derived from an ensemble of influencing factors, including:
> 
> Drift between measurement values.
> Measurement setup inconsistencies.
> Ambient environmental changes between measurements.
> Operator control inconsistencies between measurements.
> Operator reading interpretation inconsistencies between measurements.
> Instrumentation resolution rounding inconsistencies.
> Calibration correction errors.
> Instrumentation ranging errors.
> Operating voltage and load fluctuations
> *These and other influences may contribute to measurement data uncertainty, and limit the data’s usefulness.*
> 
> It is important that measurement data’s applicability to determine real-life performance of a device being tested and calibrated be qualified."
> 
> In other words, there are a lot of factors that need to be taken into account to understand if the data the OP is getting is good or just a bunch of BS (relative to documented experiements). I guess my point is these are things at a real test would account for. Does the OP have to apply all this? No... IMO he's performing an observation more than conducting a test. Therefore, its not a huge suprise that his results dont match documented tests. Take it for what its worth I guess. OP I applaud your persistency.



I am not saying there is not a lot of holes in this type of testing ,but i think i read somewhere back the op stated he was just seeing how "his" saws reacted to 2 different oils ,and thought i saw somewhere he did not say anyone elses saw would be the same going by his tests ,he was just sharing what worked on his particular models in the type of wood he was cutting ,yes tuning ,mods etc will change things or type of wood ,I myself was stuck on 32 to 1 h1r because that is all i knew for the last few years ,i would mix gas and cut wood ,I did take in someone said it was filthy ,which i never thought about it that way because my pistons were fairly clean ,but i did have a lot of black spooge from the h1r ,i tried another brand of oil this weekend ,and my plug was cleaner ,not all black like the h1r leaves it ,and the oil on the piston was not showing black soot like the h1r does ,so without this thread i would not have most likely stepped out of my comfort zone on oil and tried something else .I also tried 32 to 1 and 40 to 1 in my saws with the new brand ,the 40 to 1 left a nice coat of oil on the piston still with the new brand and the plug was a nice golden brown and dry ,and my throttle response improved a lot at the same time over the 32 to 1 in "my" saw .I still have to put some more hours on this brand to say if i like it better or not ,but so far i like it,My weedeater likes it too better than the h1r if that matters lol .


----------



## Marshy

blsnelling said:


> His findings match what Stihl has found.


Have they made their results accesible to the public? Got link?


----------



## blsnelling

Not to my knowledge. This came from a Gold certified mechanic whose son did his engineering internship with Stihl in Virginia Beach.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> I am not saying there is not a lot of holes in this type of testing ,but i think i read somewhere back the op stated he was just seeing how "his" saws reacted to 2 different oils ,and thought i saw somewhere he did not say anyone elses saw would be the same going by his tests ,he was just sharing what worked on his particular models in the type of wood he was cutting ,yes tuning ,mods etc will change things or type of wood ,I myself was stuck on 32 to 1 h1r because that is all i knew for the last few years ,i would mix gas and cut wood ,I did take in someone said it was filthy ,which i never thought about it that way because my pistons were fairly clean ,but i did have a lot of black spooge from the h1r ,i tried another brand of oil this weekend ,and my plug was cleaner ,not all black like the h1r leaves it ,and the oil on the piston was not showing black soot like the h1r does ,so without this thread i would not have most likely stepped out of my comfort zone on oil and tried something else .I also tried 32 to 1 and 40 to 1 in my saws with the new brand ,the 40 to 1 left a nice coat of oil on the piston still with the new brand and the plug was a nice golden brown and dry ,and my throttle response improved a lot at the same time over the 32 to 1 in "my" saw .I still have to put some more hours on this brand to say if i like it better or not ,but so far i like it,My weedeater likes it too better than the h1r if that matters lol .


What oil did you use this weekend?


----------



## Marshy

blsnelling said:


> Not to my knowledge. This came from a Gold certified mechanic whose son did his engineering internship with Stihl in Virginia Beach.


Seems like hearsay to me since Stihl recommends 50:1 on their web site...


----------



## blsnelling

Marshy said:


> Seems like hearsay to me since Stihl recommends 50:1 on their web site...


Same findings. Stihl has found that 32:1 burns hotter than 50:1 and makes less power. I'm going to try 40:1 myself.


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> What oil did you use this weekend?


It is sold by a company not far from here called Dumonde Tech ,the bike shops here stock it ,not sure if it is everywhere though .It is a gold color so the gas looks pretty clear pouring it in the saw ,when i pulled the muffler cover i could see clean gold oil on the piston .

Here are the specs ,Similar to what i found with the clean burning ,and improved throttle response .They say common mix 40 to 1 which is where i ended up .
http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/dtp-synthetic-racing-oil/


----------



## redbull660

because I didn't take *exact note* of how much the screwdriver actually turned over the course of the test? it wasn't enough to alarm me to like whoa that is a lot...ie like on the 361. That is the only concern I had regarding the exact degree of screw driver turn! omg lol But since some of you seem super concerned about the EXACT amount of movement we'll check it...cuz now im curious.


some more emails to belray...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Redbull says -

Morning Sir. couple more... 


Was H1R reformulated recently?


I noticed on the H1R MSDS that it reads "this product considered not hazardous" So what exactly does that mean? Would it mean that, I would breathing less carcinogenic/toxic air when running my saw?

***note - for AS post. "this produce considered not hazardous" ...this was the ONLY oil in the list that had no hazardous chemicals in the oil. List - **http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oil-test-32-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417 *

* Anyway I thought that was impressive...interesting.*

So I've evaluated different mix ratios of H1R as far as speed/time, temps and consistency in temps. But what actual signs ...what should I be seeing? What should the top of the piston look like? The exhaust port? The inside of the muffler? Outside the muffler exit port? Side of the piston and rings?

Thank you.
---------------------------------------------

Belray response -

Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.


The health statement means that none of the formula ingredients cause things like cancer or other acute or chronic health problems. That does only apply to the product as is though. Once it is burned, its health implications can change, but to start out with safe chemicals, you are certainly more likely to end up with safer fumes. That being said I would not recommend hooking up a snorkel to the exhaust haha.


The piston should either have a very thin layer of oil on it or just look clean. You may get a little bit of graying, but as long as it doesn’t build up then you are in good shape. Pitting of any of the surfaces would also be an indication of a problem. The exhaust port you just want to make sure that the edges aren’t wearing. The inside of the muffler, typically if the muffler has any packing it is not uncommon for the packing to be slightly damp with oil. If it isn’t packed, the muffler usually won’t have oil in it because of the heat, but the surface should be pretty clean. The thing to look out for is rust in the muffler. On the exit port to the muffler, its rust again, if there is rust there, you may want to check further to make sure it isn’t any deeper. The sides of the piston, the rings and the cylinder wall should not have obvious localized wear marks (ie, scoring). If you see obvious lines and especially if you can feel them, then you are getting some serious wear and heading toward trouble. There is a difference between scuffing and scoring though. Scuff marks are usually wider parallel lines and light scuffing can be fairly normal and usually does not escalate. The ring’s outer surface should be smooth without any burs or jagged edges. You may get darkening of the piston skirt surfaces that look almost like they are burnt, but that is not necessarily a problem. As long as there is no buildup it should be ok. A thin layer of oil is usually a good sign though in that you are definitely protecting the surfaces. Excessive oil should be obvious and the solution, as you know, is simple.


Another thing I just want to emphasize again is that I do not know enough about saws to be an “expert” and I don’t pretend to be one. All of that is based off my experience with 2-strokes in general, so some of it may be off base. If something about what I say seems fishy, please feel free to question it.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> And your fallback position is to immerse yourself in ignorance. Maybe you should have took some science courses instead of making bongs in wood shop. Because if you did, you would the quickly realize this test is a joke.


Redbulls test is not the subject here. Quit trying to deflect
Here, I helped you .............


Moparmyway said:


> Here is what I believe happens ...........
> The incoming mix of atomized fuel/oil meets the hot piston and cylinder wall. Some of that atomized fuel/oil mix is vaporized when it hits the hot piston/cylinder wall ; which cools the piston and cylinder wall (latent heat and change of state principles)
> 
> The hotter the piston and cylinder wall is, more of the atomized fuel that is vaporized.
> 
> Most of the different vapors do combust, but at different rates than the atomized charge.
> 
> This is where additional fuel is needed to prevent the engine from leaning out due to the increased vaporization of fuel/oil charge, necessitating more atomized fuel to combust properly.
> 
> 
> OK, I doused my clothes with fire retardant, so let the flaming begin !!!!!!





bwalker said:


> The vast majority of the atomized fuel entering the engine vaporises as soon as it enters the motor during normal operation and your description of what happens is spot on. The main reason a two stroke smokes alot at start up is because the engine isn't warm enough and liquid fuel makes it to the combustion chamber where it doesn't fully combust. So your theory is incorrect.





Moparmyway said:


> What does WA stand for ?
> How does "liquid fuel" get to be liquid after the carb and its venturi atomizes it ?
> Lets just pretend that your "liquid" theory is correct ............... if it were liquid, you would hydraulic lock the motor.
> So your theory is incorrect





Moparmyway said:


> First its "liquid fuel", now you are backpeddaling to "liquid droplets"
> 
> definition of atomized is; to reduce to tiny particles or fine spray .......... lets see how many more posts it takes you to clarify how your "liquid fuel doesn't fully combust" in an engine that isn't warm enough ..........NOBODY said anything about a 2 cycle smoking on startup ....we all know how the choke works........ the discussion is centered on how a 2 cycle runs leaner when it gets real hot; like milling compared to normal operation
> 
> You said that my theory was incorrect and are trying to use a cold motor at startup as your basis ?
> 
> Nothing like a deflection to attempt to make yourself look good, unless; if you get caught, of course.





bwalker said:


> Atomised, liquid droplet, mist.. its all the same thing. Fuel in its liquid state before it vaporizes ie turns into a gas...
> And your theory is incorrect because what you describe happens in a normally functioin motor all the time.


Its NOT all the same thing



bwalker said:


> Yes and yes. Where you are incorrect is linking this to an increased demand for fuel under load.





bwalker said:


> And this is where you go off the tracks. In a normaly running motor at normal operating temp most all of the fuel is vaporised. Under heavy load you may vaporise the very small amount fuel that typically isn't vaporised, but this would make the motor go rich, not lean.


This is where YOU go off the tracks and back into your own world



Moparmyway said:


> *Then please explain why I need more fuel to keep cool when milling*


Crickets dude ................. nothing but crickets, probably due to Google running out of info for you.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Redbulls test is not the subject here. Quit trying to deflect
> Here, I helped you .............
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its NOT all the same thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where YOU go off the tracks and back into your own world
> 
> 
> Crickets dude ................. nothing but crickets, probably due to Google running out of info for you.


Liquid is liquid.. numb skull. And your theory us complete crap. Anyone with any knowledge of two cycles knows that.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> because I didn't take *exact note* of how much the screwdriver actually turned over the course of the test? it wasn't enough to alarm me to like whoa that is a lot...ie like on the 361. That is the only concern I had regarding the exact degree of screw driver turn! omg lol But since some of you seem super concerned about the EXACT amount of movement we'll check it...cuz now im curious.
> 
> 
> some more emails to belray...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Redbull says -
> 
> Morning Sir. couple more...
> 
> 
> Was H1R reformulated recently?
> 
> 
> I noticed on the H1R MSDS that it reads "this product considered not hazardous" So what exactly does that mean? Would it mean that, I would breathing less carcinogenic/toxic air when running my saw?
> 
> ***note - for AS post. "this produce considered not hazardous" ...this was the ONLY oil in the list that had no hazardous chemicals in the oil. List - **http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oil-test-32-1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417 *
> 
> * Anyway I thought that was impressive...interesting.*
> 
> So I've evaluated different mix ratios of H1R as far as speed/time, temps and consistency in temps. But what actual signs ...what should I be seeing? What should the top of the piston look like? The exhaust port? The inside of the muffler? Outside the muffler exit port? Side of the piston and rings?
> 
> Thank you.
> ---------------------------------------------
> 
> Belray response -
> 
> Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.
> 
> 
> The health statement means that none of the formula ingredients cause things like cancer or other acute or chronic health problems. That does only apply to the product as is though. Once it is burned, its health implications can change, but to start out with safe chemicals, you are certainly more likely to end up with safer fumes. That being said I would not recommend hooking up a snorkel to the exhaust haha.
> 
> 
> The piston should either have a very thin layer of oil on it or just look clean. You may get a little bit of graying, but as long as it doesn’t build up then you are in good shape. Pitting of any of the surfaces would also be an indication of a problem. The exhaust port you just want to make sure that the edges aren’t wearing. The inside of the muffler, typically if the muffler has any packing it is not uncommon for the packing to be slightly damp with oil. If it isn’t packed, the muffler usually won’t have oil in it because of the heat, but the surface should be pretty clean. The thing to look out for is rust in the muffler. On the exit port to the muffler, its rust again, if there is rust there, you may want to check further to make sure it isn’t any deeper. The sides of the piston, the rings and the cylinder wall should not have obvious localized wear marks (ie, scoring). If you see obvious lines and especially if you can feel them, then you are getting some serious wear and heading toward trouble. There is a difference between scuffing and scoring though. Scuff marks are usually wider parallel lines and light scuffing can be fairly normal and usually does not escalate. The ring’s outer surface should be smooth without any burs or jagged edges. You may get darkening of the piston skirt surfaces that look almost like they are burnt, but that is not necessarily a problem. As long as there is no buildup it should be ok. A thin layer of oil is usually a good sign though in that you are definitely protecting the surfaces. Excessive oil should be obvious and the solution, as you know, is simple.
> 
> 
> Another thing I just want to emphasize again is that I do not know enough about saws to be an “expert” and I don’t pretend to be one. All of that is based off my experience with 2-strokes in general, so some of it may be off base. If something about what I say seems fishy, please feel free to question it.


What two cycle oils contain carcinoges?
The "techy" is dead wrong in what a piston should look like and this can be verified from a variety of sources..


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Liquid is liquid.. numb skull. And your theory us complete crap. Anyone with any knowledge of two cycles knows that.


Here we go again, name calling instead of educating me
Educate me about how your liquid vaporizes and burns as vapors in the combustion chamber, not as atomized particles of fuel.
You are happy to point the errors of us, then educate us in your long winded diatribes
Please take the time to be productive and explain how liquid and vapor relate to how when I am milling with my 90cc saw, the hotter motor (should be going rich according to you) needs more fuel; like we all see and commonly know

Don't need any links, just use your own words


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Not to my knowledge. This came from a Gold certified mechanic whose son did his engineering internship with Stihl in Virginia Beach.


The devil is in the details.
How much hotter? Wouldnt it stand to reason that if the engine was making more HP it may also run hotter. And adding lower oil to fuel ratios has been documented to produce more HP.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Here we go again, name calling instead of educating me
> Educate me about how your liquid vaporizes and burns as vapors in the combustion chamber, not as atomized particles of fuel.
> You are happy to point the errors of us, then educate us in your long winded diatribes
> Please take the time to be productive and explain how liquid and vapor relate to how when I am milling with my 90cc saw, the hotter motor (should be going rich according to you) needs more fuel; like we all see and commonly know
> 
> Don't need any links, just use your own words


I already have but it went over your head. Not supprised there...
As for your milling saw. As load increases so does the fuel requirement. Those goes for any engine and is pretty basic..


----------



## Moparmyway

Anybody actually seen bwalker ?
Has anyone on the forum (other than bwalker himself) ever seen what bwalker looks like ?
Has bwalker purchased anything from anyone around these parts ?
Has bwalker ever sent anything to a member of this forum ?
Has anyone from this forum ever met bwalker ?

If so, please post here

I wonder .................... BA ?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Same findings. Stihl has found that 32:1 burns hotter than 50:1 and makes less power. I'm going to try 40:1 myself.


Stihls findings, if true are contridicted by those of mercury marine.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Anybody actually seen bwalker ?
> Has anyone on the forum (other than bwalker himself) ever seen what bwalker looks like ?
> Has bwalker purchased anything from anyone around these parts ?
> Has bwalker ever sent anything to a member of this forum ?
> Has anyone from this forum ever met bwalker ?
> 
> If so, please post here
> 
> I wonder .................... BA ?


I just sold a 372 here a few months back.. not that it matters.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> And this is where you go off the tracks. In a normaly running motor at normal operating temp most all of the fuel is vaporised.* Under heavy load you may vaporise the very small amount fuel that typically isn't vaporised, but this would make the motor go rich, not lean*.


Your words



bwalker said:


> more HP it may also run hotter.


I agree



bwalker said:


> I already have but it went over your head. Not supprised there...
> As for your milling saw. As load increases so does the fuel requirement. Those goes for any engine and is pretty basic..


I agree

_*Which one of the 3 of your quotes should I not believe ?*_


----------



## redbull660

bwalker - imo you seem to know just enough to be dangerous...

great info on some stuff. Completely wrong on other stuff. Contradict yourself on other stuff. 

You are closed minded, quick to judge, nonconstructive, and instead of logical thoughts and/or supporting info, you resort to name calling, belittlement, and criticism to anyone who questions you, or differs in opinion. Your attitude just plain sucks.

For me, your just a unreliable source of info. If others want to rely on you, that is their choice. 

The fact that you hate my testing so much and think it's meaningless...why do you even concern yourself ...bother to post on this thread then?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Your words
> 
> 
> I agree
> 
> 
> I agree
> 
> _*Which one of the 3 of your quotes should I not believe ?*_


Your equating runn


Moparmyway said:


> Your words
> 
> 
> I agree
> 
> 
> I agree
> 
> _*Which one of the 3 of your quotes should I not believe ?*_


The statements quoted don't contridict at all and are correct.. Your assuming that a lean air fuel ratio is the only way to introduce more heat into a motor, which is false. You also can't seem to grasp that fuel requirement go up with load and this pertains to all IC engines.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Your equating runn
> 
> The statements quoted don't contridict at all and are correct.. Your assuming that a lean air fuel ratio is the only way to introduce more heat into a motor, which is false. You also can't seem to grasp that fuel requirement go up with load and this pertains to all IC engines.


More circles from you ..................
I said extra load, like in milling
I give you an E for effort though .................

I am finished with your games


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> bwalker - imo you seem to know just enough to be dangerous...
> 
> great info on some stuff. Completely wrong on other stuff. Contradict yourself on other stuff.
> 
> You are closed minded, quick to judge, nonconstructive, and instead of logical thoughts and/or supporting info, you resort to name calling, belittlement, and criticism to anyone who questions you, or differs in opinion. Your attitude just plain sucks.
> 
> For me, your just a unreliable source of info. If others want to rely on you, that is their choice.
> 
> The fact that you hate my testing so much and think it's meaningless...why do you even concern yourself ...bother to post on this thread then?


You seem to know very little and are completely happy to stay that way in order to fit your pre conceived notions. You get defensive and whiny when anyone questions the validity of your sloppy constructed tests. Notice I don't treat Brad and Andy like idiots? This is because they don't play the part like you do..
I don't hate your testing at all. I just think it is meaningless.
As for why I comment. People are impressionable and I get very sick of seeing the same myths passed off as fact year after year. Wallowing in ignorance and stupidity is no way to live.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> More circles from you ..................
> I said extra load, like in milling
> I give you an E for effort though .................
> 
> I am finished with your games


That was direct and to the point. The fact it goes over your head isn't supprising based on history..


----------



## rjames

Hey bud, if you stop feeding the trolls they will die. I also try to abide by the quote in my Sig line lol


Moparmyway said:


> More circles from you ..................
> I said extra load, like in milling
> I give you an E for effort though .................
> 
> I am finished with your games


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Stihls findings, if true are contridicted by those of mercury marine.


What year and what oils were used to conduct those tests?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> What year and what oils were used to conduct those tests?


Late 70's IIRC. The test have been replicated by others recently though. As a result the shifter kart guys run as low as 16:1 with out fretting about it.


----------



## blsnelling

Interesting read here, bike related article.

"While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around as a mist by the spinning crankshaft, and the droplets are distributed by the air currents moving through the engine."

"Some of the oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation, unless you're just putt-putting around on trails without putting the engine under much load."


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Late 70's IIRC. The test have been replicated by others recently though. As a result the shifter kart guys run as low as 16:1 with out fretting about it.


Any of them using synthetic ester oils, which have much higher viscosity and film strength?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> bwalker - Well I asked you on page 42 or 45 or somewhere in the 40s...
> 
> Now page 100. So again I ask...
> 
> Please bestow on us with your wisdom.
> 
> How exactly would you do the testing?
> 
> Please tell us what to use based on your scientific controlled study supporting said conclusion of what to use.
> 
> I know many of us are just helpless morons, but please, just this once could you *Tell us what, why, how and support it with results?*


I wouldn't as ISO and JASO have already done so. Use a certified oil and don't worry about it.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Interesting read here, bike related article.
> 
> "While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around as a mist by the spinning crankshaft, and the droplets are distributed by the air currents moving through the engine."
> 
> "Some of the oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation, unless you're just putt-putting around on trails without putting the engine under much load."


That sure sounds like some things I have said in this thread...


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Any of them using synthetic ester oils, which have much higher viscosity and film strength?


I can't recall, Brad. But synthetic ester oils were around in the 70's. Provided they are decent oils that dont have negative effects on combustion esters shouldn't influence the testing.
I would also point out that high viscosity esters have fallen out of favor and many of the newer oils that don't use them and for good reason.


----------



## blsnelling

Here's an interesting post. I realize that he's not proving any science with his opinion. Interesting none the less.

"If someone says they got higher HP numbers on a dyno by increasing the amount of oil in the gas, it is only because they in essence leaned out the carb jetting by doing so. That means that either the bike was jetted too rich to begin with, or it would have shortly blown up if run for any length of time using that richer premix/leaner jetting. Either one makes any of their subsequent dyno results or conclusions highly suspect and potentially damaging. Anyone who states that more oil in the gas equals more horsepower is smoking as much as their bike will smoke."


----------



## blsnelling

" Yes running richer oil mixture will lean the jetting and give more power. However also with heavier mixes of oil the added oil gives a tighter ring seal for more compression, also the added oil content will give higher btu's to contribute to the combustion process. But you have to run you bike hard enough to burn the heavier mix to see the added benefits. Also this mainly holds true with castor or syn blend oils, *certain full synthetics will not burn off at high oil-ratios.*"

"Yes, burned oil produces a higher Brittish Thermal Unit rating than gasoline. Unburned oil blown out the exhaust produces nothing and reduces the amount of gasoline being burned by slowing its burn rate so that more of it blows out the exhaust with the excess oil. You will only get a higher BTU output from running more oil if you actually burn it, and to do that you must increase the amount of air to accelerate the burn rate enough to offset the burn retardation fom the oil. 

Synthetic oils tend to burn much slower than conventional oils, which is why they usually recommend mixing less of it in your gas. The gas burns faster than the oil in it, so most of the unburned residue is oil. "


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Interesting read here, bike related article.
> 
> "While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around as a mist by the spinning crankshaft, and the droplets are distributed by the air currents moving through the engine."
> 
> "Some of the oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation, unless you're just putt-putting around on trails without putting the engine under much load."


OTOH I have known loggers that ran nothing but Walmart TCW3 outboard oil at 50:1 and there saws last a long time.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Here's an interesting post. I realize that he's not proving any science with his opinion. Interesting none the less.
> 
> "If someone says they got higher HP numbers on a dyno by increasing the amount of oil in the gas, it is only because they in essence leaned out the carb jetting by doing so. That means that either the bike was jetted too rich to begin with, or it would have shortly blown up if run for any length of time using that richer premix/leaner jetting. Either one makes any of their subsequent dyno results or conclusions highly suspect and potentially damaging. Anyone who states that more oil in the gas equals more horsepower is smoking as much as their bike will smoke."


Intuitive to some but also wrong as proved by real testing.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> His findings match what Stihl has found.


But not exactly what TW found using a temperature sensor in the the engine, I don't remember exactly where in the engine. The temperature differences were not that large 10℉ to 20℉

We must not forget, Stihl and Husqvarna are in the business of selling new products.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Same findings. Stihl has found that 32:1 burns hotter than 50:1 and makes less power. I'm going to try 40:1 myself.


Don't put too much faith in what a gold level Stihl tech says. At least that's what a gold level tech told me. The classes are infomercials for the most part. We also have know idea what the test perimeters were. Also remember why you went to 32:1 in the first place.[emoji6]


----------



## blsnelling

blsnelling said:


> If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. *At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation.*



These are the key points in my mind. I tune more closely to optimum performance than most. I run my saws hard. I work them hard in big wood. I rev them hard in cant racing. Saws run like that need more protection. For those reasons, I won't run 50:1. Those are also the reasons I have always run 32:1.



blsnelling said:


> ...*certain full synthetics will not burn off at high oil-ratios.*





blsnelling said:


> *Synthetic oils tend to burn much slower than conventional oils,* which is why they usually recommend mixing less of it in your gas. The gas burns faster than the oil in it, so most of the unburned residue is oil.



What I'm hearing now, is that *too much* synthetic ester oil is also not a good thing, unlike semi-synthetic our castor oils. *Maybe* 40:1 would be a better compromise. Maybe not. I'm curious to know now though.


----------



## maulhead

Moparmyway said:


> I appreciate the testing that Redbull is doing.
> Nobody has had the bowls to purchase hundreds of links of chain to remove one very fluid variable like he has.
> He probably went through at least 24 loops of new chain for the testing he has bent over backwards to do, as well as he could.
> 
> His testing, (regardless if you like it, want to modify it, do it differently, or hate it) used lots of chain, and we could all try to help him recover a little.
> I sent him some *cabbage* for some of the chains with 1 cut on them, anybody else want some of his extra .404 loops ?



I am in the cabbage clan as well. 

A few months ago when Redbull was doing other tests, I bought some chain from him after his tests were done. 

Saved me a lot of cabbage! I called my local stihl dealer to buy some 36" chains, they told me $57 a loop, plus tax. LOL, I told them no thank you. If I recall right I bought 5 - 36" chains and 3 - 28" chains from Redbull, each with only one test cut on them, and that saved me a lot of cabbage!!


----------



## redbull660

bwalker - note all your responses on h1r talk about it in the past tense from the 1990's and or early 2000's

However with a simple email.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Belray

*Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago*. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

also by your own admittance you haven't tested anything in a long while because yamalube 2r just works for you. and when you find something that works you stick with it. 

Yet you come on here and bash just about any oil that isn't 2r and especially h1r because it's "old tech". So if you are referencing h1r from the 90s and early 2000s and given that prior nov 2014 *you hadn't posted on this forum since june 2010*... lol and you think im full of holes??? lol


----------



## redbull660

my personal conclusions so far are...



- for whatever reason the quads seem to want less oil at 45:1 (stock saws) and the old school 660 wants 40:1. H1R that is.


*Keep in mind that H1R run at 40:1 would be the same as others with solvent at 32:1 speaking on the basis of volume of oil. (and 45:1 H1R = ~ 36:1 others with solvent)*


- I'd like to confirm the 661 results with a retest using the "reset" feature each time.


- I still like that mastermind and others have had such good results with H1R....even at what seems to be too rich of a mixture for it (at least in stock saws) at 32:1... given the volume by oil make up of it - vs - oils with solvents.


- I am very happy that after using H1R (for 4-5 tanks), the black crusty sooty garbage Stihl ultra left on the top of my piston and exhaust port of my 3 saws (361 660 661) is rapidly clearing up. Very cool to see the top of the piston again.


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> OTOH I have known loggers that ran nothing but Walmart TCW3 outboard oil at 50:1 and there saws last a long time.


Yes, that is my Dad. I told him to switch to JASO FD oil for air cooled engines... 42:1 sounds like the best compromise.

You should consider doing a test with a semi-synthetic. Best of both worlds. Might just blow your mind.

In at page 100. oops, I'll take first on page 101.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I still like that mastermind and others have had such good results with H1R....even at what seems to be too rich of a mixture for it (at least in stock saws) at 32:1... given the volume by oil make up of it - vs - oils with solvents.


I think it's a mistake to make this assumption. Too rich for what? You're leaving protection totally out of the equation, which is the primary reason it was recommended.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm pretty sure I can speak for Randy when I say that lubrication of the bottom end is his number one concern. Protection is also my number one concern. Cleanliness is a distant second. Performance comes in last when it comes to oil choice.


----------



## blsnelling

I didn't say a thing about H1-R, so I don't know where that came from. 

I don't know why you're hung up on this solvent thing. Again, you're making assumptions about oil that you simply don't know to be true.

My only point is that you are solely focused on performance, the *least important* variable in the choice of your oil. And with performance only data, you have declare what is too rich.


----------



## blsnelling

I disagree with your statement that 32:1 is too rich. My comment was *not* about H1-R, or any particular oil. It's a great oil, no doubt. You simply don't have near enough information to make that statement and have made many assumptions to come to that conclusion, all while leaving far more important variables out of the equation.

*I've supported you* where I could all through out this discussion. You're now making statements as if they are facts. That's very dangerous to do when you are most certainly influencing others with *possible* misinformation.



> you are actually running the same amount of oil !!! There is no difference!!!


You do *not* know that an oil with some amount of solvent provides inferior lubrication than one without.

You do *not* know that a few degrees hotter cylinder is a bad thing.

I think you would do yourself a favor to leave the details to the tribologist with a PHD in chemistry. Pick your favorite oils, do whatever testing you want, and use whatever you like.


----------



## Andyshine77

http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

http://www.mummbrothers.com/SRF_Stuff/Secrets/Driveline/Air_Fuel.htm

Brad this thread has provided zero new information. We both know what can effect cut times and heat, and it has nothing to do with the premix. Like I said earlier, stock saws running 40:1 would be out running ported saws running 32:1 if his findings were correct. Have you seen this? Remember my 346 out cutting other ported 346's running 50:1 or 40:1. The saws in this comparison were not tuned properly "whether by hand or IC's" and the saws were most likely not ran properly. Ask yourself if I could reduce his Cut times? simply because of my experience. Trust what you already know, if in time we learn something new we can adjust.


----------



## MustangMike

I think I've learned a few things, even if we don't have all the answers yet.


----------



## KenJax Tree

What i learned here is....pick your oil, pick a ratio, and go cut wood. I actually learned it a long time ago but it applies here.


----------



## CR500

Trx250r180 said:


> It is sold by a company not far from here called Dumonde Tech ,the bike shops here stock it ,not sure if it is everywhere though .It is a gold color so the gas looks pretty clear pouring it in the saw ,when i pulled the muffler cover i could see clean gold oil on the piston .
> 
> Here are the specs ,Similar to what i found with the clean burning ,and improved throttle response .They say common mix 40 to 1 which is where i ended up .
> http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/dtp-synthetic-racing-oil/


might have to try some....


----------



## bwalker

Then piston pic I'm posted wa


redbull660 said:


> bwalker - note all your responses on h1r talk about it in the past tense from the 1990's and or early 2000's
> 
> However with a simple email.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Belray
> 
> *Yes H1-R did have an upgrade about 4 years ago*. When I did it we made sure that all of the properties either remained the same or were improved. It has been around since at least the 90’s, I don’t even know the original launch date of it. When a product is around this long it is inevitable that some of the raw materials may be discontinued or just not be available for some reason so reformulations are a necessary part of it, and it really is a good thing because it means we get the chance to update things and improve on aspects that we maybe had to settle on in the past. Every product is different and nothing is perfect, so there is always room for improvement! That’s my motto anyway.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> also by your own admittance you haven't tested anything in a long while because yamalube 2r just works for you. and when you find something that works you stick with it.
> 
> Yet you come on here and bash just about any oil that isn't 2r and especially h1r because it's "old tech". So if you are referencing h1r from the 90s and early 2000s and given that prior nov 2014 *you hadn't posted on this forum since june 2010*... lol and you think im full of holes??? lol


The piston pic I posted was from 2014.. nice try.


----------



## KG441c




----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> huh? come on....
> 
> I said
> redbull660 said: ↑
> I still like that mastermind and others have had such good results with *H1R*....even at what seems to be too rich of a mixture for it (at least in stock saws) at 32:1... given the volume by oil make up of it - vs - oils with solvents.
> 
> then you said
> blsnelling said: ↑
> I think it's a mistake to make this assumption. Too rich for what? You're leaving protection totally out of the equation, which is the primary reason it was recommended.
> 
> I said the above about h1r and you said it's mistake to make assumption... ABOUT H1R lol
> 
> the MSDS ...the %'s are all laid out!
> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417
> 
> for example....
> 
> *Lucus - http://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_2-Cycle-Snowmobile-Oil.pdf
> Solvent naphtha petroleum = 10-30%
> 1 decene, homopolymer hydyrogenated = 10-30%*
> 
> those are solvents. NOT oil. so somewhere between 20 and 60% of the bottle is comprised of SOLVENTS. NOT oil. They burn! They don't lubricate! Heck they don't even burn as good as gasoline!
> 
> Performance - seriously?
> 
> 661 - the fastest times were at 50:1. So far (yes I want to retest it and confirm) I picked 45:1. Because it provided a combo of fast times and coolest most consistent temps.
> 
> 660 - fastest times were 45:1. I liked 40:1 the best same as above.
> 
> 361 - I think was same line of thinking or maybe in that case the fastest times were also with the coolest temps and most consistent temps.


How does 10-20,turn into 20-60?


----------



## bwalker

Belray is junk! And even Mastermind, who is not an idiot admits he doesn't see the effects of it after the saws leave his place.


----------



## bwalker

FYI Just ran 4 tanks of Maxima K2 @32:1 through my 562 tonight. I noticed zero change in tune from Yamalube 2r.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> ok we'll take this step by step...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brad "I disagree with your stmt that 32:1 is too rich." - * Don't take what I said out of context. * *Here is what I said for the 3rd time!* - redbull660 said: ↑
> 
> I still like that mastermind and others have had such good results with *H1R*....even at what seems to be too rich of a mixture for it (at least in stock saws) at 32:1... given the volume by oil make up of it - vs - oils with solvents.
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> Brad "My comment was *not* about H1-R, or any particular oil."
> blsnelling said: ↑
> I think it's a mistake to make this assumption. Too rich for what? You're leaving protection totally out of the equation, which is the primary reason it was recommended.
> 
> Sooo what was Redbull making an assumption about? Answer: H1R being too rich at 32:1 in a stock saw based on his tests. Brad says it's a mistake so brad is referring to redbulls assumption about H1R. So your comment is about H1R and my assumption about h1r.
> 
> Brad says Too rich for what? Answer : "Stock saws" as stated! You're leaving protection totally out of the equation... I already covered this.
> 
> Good grief do you even read what I said!
> 
> Your responses don't have a lot to do with what I'm saying.
> --------------------------------------------
> next,
> 
> brad "You simply don't have near enough information to make that statement and have made many assumptions to come to that conclusion, all while leaving far more important variables out of the equation."
> 
> uhh so now you are commenting on a statement that I didn't even make!...you took out of context and you actually made it. And now your commenting on your own statement.
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> next,
> 
> brad "You're now making statements as if they are facts."
> 
> specifically what statements?
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> next,
> 
> brad "You do *not* know that an oil with some amount of solvent provides inferior lubrication than one without."
> 
> i didn't even say this. wth
> --------------------------------------
> next,
> 
> brad "You do *not* know that a few degrees hotter cylinder is a bad thing."
> 
> well according to the belray dude...the guy who actually formulated the oil and who is a chemical engineer. If he says that what I want is a combo of time, consistent temps and coolest temps. (Which I've repeatedly posted through this thread and on the condensed thread.) then im pretty inclined to take his word. Why because he formulated the oil. Because he's a chemical engineer. And because it makes logical sense!
> 
> Furthermore if the belray dude says that what is happening at 32:1 (in the 661 test) is the cylinder is slowing down and heating up because your not getting NEW oil and gas to cool things down. And if he says that what I want is not toooo much oil but EQUILIBRIUM. Then I am so inclined to believe him.
> -------------------------------------------------





redbull660 said:


> ok we'll take this step by step...
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brad "I disagree with your stmt that 32:1 is too rich." - * Don't take what I said out of context. * *Here is what I said for the 3rd time!* - redbull660 said: ↑
> 
> I still like that mastermind and others have had such good results with *H1R*....even at what seems to be too rich of a mixture for it (at least in stock saws) at 32:1... given the volume by oil make up of it - vs - oils with solvents.
> 
> --------------------------
> 
> Brad "My comment was *not* about H1-R, or any particular oil."
> blsnelling said: ↑
> I think it's a mistake to make this assumption. Too rich for what? You're leaving protection totally out of the equation, which is the primary reason it was recommended.
> 
> Sooo what was Redbull making an assumption about? Answer: H1R being too rich at 32:1 in a stock saw based on his tests. Brad says it's a mistake so brad is referring to redbulls assumption about H1R. So your comment is about H1R and my assumption about h1r.
> 
> Brad says Too rich for what? Answer : "Stock saws" as stated! You're leaving protection totally out of the equation... I already covered this.
> 
> Good grief do you even read what I said!
> 
> Your responses don't have a lot to do with what I'm saying.
> --------------------------------------------
> next,
> 
> brad "You simply don't have near enough information to make that statement and have made many assumptions to come to that conclusion, all while leaving far more important variables out of the equation."
> 
> uhh so now you are commenting on a statement that I didn't even make!...you took out of context and you actually made it. And now your commenting on your own statement.
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> next,
> 
> brad "You're now making statements as if they are facts."
> 
> specifically what statements?
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> next,
> 
> brad "You do *not* know that an oil with some amount of solvent provides inferior lubrication than one without."
> 
> i didn't even say this. wth
> --------------------------------------
> next,
> 
> brad "You do *not* know that a few degrees hotter cylinder is a bad thing."
> 
> well according to the belray dude...the guy who actually formulated the oil and who is a chemical engineer. If he says that what I want is a combo of time, consistent temps and coolest temps. (Which I've repeatedly posted through this thread and on the condensed thread.) then im pretty inclined to take his word. Why because he formulated the oil. Because he's a chemical engineer. And because it makes logical sense!
> 
> Furthermore if the belray dude says that what is happening at 32:1 (in the 661 test) is the cylinder is slowing down and heating up because your not getting NEW oil and gas to cool things down. And if he says that what I want is not toooo much oil but EQUILIBRIUM. Then I am so inclined to believe him.
> -------------------------------------------------


If the Belray guy said that he is an idiot as well. And seriously doubt he's an engineer..more likely a kid staffing their tech line..


----------



## blsnelling

I'm out. This is going no where.


----------



## KenJax Tree




----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> View attachment 420319


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> based on what. support that with data.
> 
> 
> 
> well no kidding they are fairly similar.
> 
> 
> 
> why? support it with facts in the last 15yrs. well we know you aren't. for all we know, your sales for yamalube.
> 
> what else ya got?!?!? Nothing! haa just like before. Not a thing. Come on insult me again.


Yamalube 2R and K2 are totaly different in composition.
I have already posted pics of what H1R burns like and they were from 2014. And I don't work for any oil company.
You do a better job insulting yourself that I could ever do. Keep it up!


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Going no where...
> 
> well maybe ya'll should put up a test or two. eh?
> 
> why am I the only one testing? Ya'll are so smart and think my stuff is meaningless. Do a test? Prove my results wrong!
> 
> Brad why don't you test this stuff already? Your porting saws after all. What's the point of porting a saw if you aren't trying to maximize performance?
> 
> If I was porting saws I'd be testing oils and ratios and chains and bars.
> 
> 102 pages and 2000 posts and no one else has done a test. People said they were going to. But no one has!



First of all, I never said your stuff was meaningless. Quite the opposite. I also never said your results were wrong. They are what they are. They provide some interesting insight that what we've taken to be fact, *MIGHT* not be the case. I said your assumptions and conclusions drawn from those results *MAY* be wrong, and therefore should not be made as statements of truth. You simply don't have near enough information, data, or knowledge to make those judgments.

Why am I not out testing oil? First of all, if I have time to spend on saws, I'm usually porting someone elses. I have little time for my own stuff. More importantly, I have a life outside of saws. Plus, it really doesn't make that much difference to me. I do this for fun, because I enjoy it. When it can't be fun, it's not worth doing. *Pick a quality oil, run it at 32:1 or 40:1 and enjoy a good life*. It's simply not worth it to me to stress over this. When I have time, I would like to do some extreme boundary protection testing. After all, that's the single most important aspect of any lubricant. Furthermore, no oil is going to kill the performance of a chainsaw, ported or stock.


----------



## KenJax Tree

To 99% of the people this testing means nothing....pick an oil, pick a ratio, and cut wood. End of story.


----------



## CR500

I JUST LIKE OIL lol..... Different brands are fun to test 32:1 for me lol


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> To 99% of the people this testing means nothing....pick an oil, pick a ratio, and cut wood. End of story.





CR500 said:


> I JUST LIKE OIL lol..... Different brands are fun to test 32:1 for me lol


You guys get it. None of us will ever prove that any one oil or ratio is the best.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> what happens when a stock saw running 40 or 45:1 beats a ported saw running 32:1? Then what? 661 was 7 sec faster at 50:1 then 32:1. in a 30 sec cut. That's a lot for a ported saw to make up in a 30 sec cut.


I HIGHLY suspect that single point of data.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I challenge any ported 661 out there. You run 32:1 I'll run 50:1 h1r. same bar same bar oil new chains.


Come on down


----------



## blsnelling

Seriously now, do you really believe that?


----------



## blsnelling

You really think 50:1 vs 32:1 is going to give you 1,500 more RPMs in the cut?


----------



## DexterDay

huh? come on....

I said
redbull660 said: ↑
I still like that mastermind and others have had such good results with H1R...even at what seems to be too rich of a mixture for it (at least in stock saws) at *32:1*... given the volume by oil make up of it - vs - oils with solvents.

then you said
blsnelling said: ↑
I think it's a mistake to make this assumption. Too rich for what? You're leaving protection totally out of the equation, which is the primary reason it was recommended.

I said the above about h1r and you said it's mistake to make assumption... ABOUT H1R lol



What if it looked like this Redbull? 

This is what I seen? Brad would probably agree.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm going to start selling port jobs in a bottle, lol  You send me your bottle of oil, I'll "modify" the contents of that bottle, then return it to the owner for a small fee, lol.


----------



## DexterDay

redbull660 said:


> I challenge any ported 661 out there. You run 32:1 I'll run 50:1 h1r. same bar, same bar oil, get same gas but mix diff oil in obviously, and new chains.



That is a huge statement. .

I am pretty sure your azz will be handed to you.

Although I think your testing is fun, there are so many variables that you can't state the results as fact. The wood changes size with every cut (also knots, grain, etc ). Also, add in the fact that off the roll loops are not the same.. Some are very good... Some suck out of the box (I am talking RS that you used. There can be a difference loop to loop. Unless you spun them all from the same roll?)


----------



## CR888

blsnelling said:


> I'm out. This is going no where.


l was out many pages ago due to one or two that have never had a foot up the a$$. But l keep dropping in to how many times ya's all been round the track. Its an endless journey the oil thread it just goes round and round but l must say its kinda dappa when the op posts Belray's side of the story and stuff. My saws parts and plastics wear out way faster than the engines. l have seen many stihl saws run on stihls cheapest orange bottle stuff and seen decades of service on farms. l can replace many of my saws within two years buy NOT running top dollar name brand ester base full synthetic oil. l think your better off finding a 'good' oil at a 'great' price, its actually easy. Full synthetic's biggest negative is price and you have to consider that in a commercial situation. There are plenty of fd rated semi synthetics out there at a fraction of the cost. You also need not worry about slow/poor ring seal during break in, rust, glazed piston's, loss of throttle response/power if one chooses a sensible 'semi synthetic' oil. Many semi synthetics are rated higher than their full synthetic cousins and give you kinda the best of 'both worlds'.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Yes. I think my muff modded 661 running 50:1 will beat a ported 661 running 32:1. I don't believe you can make up 7 seconds. I believe your running to much oil and it's slowing down the piston and overheating the saw.


This is getting flat out ridiculous. How much temp difference have you measured? Without going back, wasn't it less than 100 or maybe even 50? And that's going to overheat my saw? Give me a break. If you think your thinner oil ratio is going to outperform a ported saw....well, that is flat out delusional! Now I'm starting to sound like bwalker. But this is mind blowing.

Why can't I walk away, lol?


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I gotta drive to you!?!? I've already spent enough money and hours upon hours doing this stuff. I propose you send a ported 661 to neutral closer location. Treemonkey is only 45min from me!


If I want to see the results, I'll test my own saw with my own mix. Your challenge is ludicrous.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> This is getting flat out ridiculous. How much temp difference have you measured? Without going back, wasn't it less than 100 or maybe even 50? And that's going to overheat my saw? Give me a break. If you think your thinner oil ratio is going to outperform a ported saw....well, that is flat out delusional! Now I'm starting to sound like bwalker. But this is mind blowing.
> 
> Why can't I walk away, lol?


If you run .050" chain you won't stand a chance against his 50:1 fuel and .058 chain combo.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I HIGHLY suspect that single point of data.


The data is complete garbage...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Yes. I think my muff modded 661 running 50:1 will beat a ported 661 running 32:1. I don't believe you can make up 7 seconds. I believe your running to much oil and it's slowing down the piston and overheating the saw.
> 
> Dex!!! wuts up baby! heh yeah dude same roll. why i like to get 2 or 3 logs and 1 cut cut each in succession. See below.


You are out of your mind..


----------



## gunnusmc03

Ever see tropic thunder ?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> This is getting flat out ridiculous. How much temp difference have you measured? Without going back, wasn't it less than 100 or maybe even 50? And that's going to overheat my saw? Give me a break. If you think your thinner oil ratio is going to outperform a ported saw....well, that is flat out delusional! Now I'm starting to sound like bwalker. But this is mind blowing.
> 
> Why can't I walk away, lol?


I can't believe it took you guys so long to realize Redbull is a complete stone...


----------



## blsnelling

gunnusmc03 said:


> Ever see tropic thunder ?


----------



## CR500

blsnelling said:


> You guys get it. None of us will ever prove that any one oil or ratio is the best.



Well we could but the loss of population/casualties and countless man hours is what ia holding the research back.

I appreciate the work redbull!!! 

I like my ratio and respect everyone else's ratio and have gone to 35:1 when I did not have enough oil. Key word was "had" I seem to have enough surplus for a while haha 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## DexterDay

redbull660 said:


> Yes. I think my muff modded 661 running 50:1 will beat a ported 661 running 32:1. I don't believe you can make up 7 seconds. I believe your running to much oil and it's slowing down the piston and overheating the saw.
> 
> Dex!!! wuts up baby! heh yeah dude same roll. why i like to get 2 or 3 logs and 1 cut cut each in succession. See below.



Same roll takes some variables out. 


But .... I still see to many variables. . Even with the same roll.


7 seconds in a 30 sec cut? That's less than 30%. A good port job can make up 30%.. 

Also, a stock saw with a good hand filed chain can be 20%-30% faster. 

As for me? I have a 661 on the way soon. 
Even as a stock saw? It will get 36:1.


----------



## DexterDay

bwalker said:


> You are out of your mind..


----------



## huskihl

I think I've gone full retard for still reading this. WTF???


----------



## KenJax Tree

My IQ has dropped a few points[emoji15]


----------



## Freehand




----------



## Metals406




----------



## cuttinties




----------



## KenJax Tree




----------



## MustangMike

Have you been drinking too many dos eckies????


----------



## huskihl

MustangMike said:


> Have you been drinking too many dos eckies????


----------



## huskihl

I'm switching to this stuff. 14.5-1


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> I challenge any ported 661 out there. You run 32:1 I'll run 50:1 h1r. same bar, same bar oil, get same gas but mix diff oil in obviously, and new chains.



*I'll take that challenge!! *

1st of all, I am not calling you out here, I wanna see the results win or loose.

Next weekend I'm driving 10 hours one way to the Iowa GTG, there is no way it's more then 5 hours for you from northern WI to Iowa!

Bring your stock 661, I will bring my Mastermind 661.

But IMO, we are going to have to make MORE then one timed cut to get conclusive results. One cut per saw is not enough.

Find a uniform piece of wood, each saw gets 3 cuts with the same person running both saws.

Then, new chains (off of the same roll) for each saw, and the next guy gets to run the saws, each operator & saw get 3 cuts. Cuts will be timed and averaged.

I will pay for my half of the chain!

I think it would better to do the test with 28" bars, it's going to be hard to find uniform wood IMO worthy of a 36" bar. I am sure there will be plenty of uniform wood there for a 28" bar.

And just for fun after the test, lets do a head ups race, you on one end of the log 3 cuts, me on the other end of the log 3 cuts.







You wanted the challenge, bring your 661 to Iowa, I will be waiting 


.


----------



## porsche965

If you don't beat a stock saw with a ported saw easily by 30% id question the builder not the mix ratio right? 
32:1 has shown consistently over 30% faster times correct?

Anything less is unacceptable in my stable


----------



## Moparmyway

12th tank of has been drank with VP SEF fuel and H1R @ 32:1.


----------



## blsnelling

Stock


Ported


If you think your oil ratio can make that kind of difference...


----------



## gunnusmc03

blsnelling said:


> Stock
> 
> 
> Ported
> 
> 
> If you think your oil ratio can make that kind of difference...




Brad were you running the same fuel mix Ratio in both saws? Or did you run 50:1 in the stocker?


----------



## blsnelling

gunnusmc03 said:


> Brad were you running the same fuel mix Ratio in both saws? Or did you run 50:1 in the stocker?


32:1 in everything.


----------



## Mastermind

Y'all are all crazy. 

I've been building fence........

The weather is lovely today.....so back on the barded wire.


----------



## blsnelling

Hey Randy. Are you going to start selling port jobs in a bottle?


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Y'all are all crazy.
> 
> I've been building fence........
> 
> The weather is lovely today.....so back on the barded wire.


What ratio wire!!?? 32to1 or 50to1? Is the hammer ported?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> What ratio wire!!?? 32to1 or 50to1? Is the hammer ported?


Twists/foot?


----------



## Marshy

redbull660 said:


> Yes. I think my muff modded 661 running 50:1 will beat a ported 661 running 32:1. I don't believe you can make up 7 seconds. I believe your running to much oil and it's slowing down the piston and overheating the saw.
> 
> Dex!!! wuts up baby! heh yeah dude same roll. why i like to get 2 or 3 logs and 1 cut cut each in succession. See below.


 
Damn, this thread just got interesting! I wanna see this!


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Twists/foot?


40to1 twist/ft if 100% ester coated wire and 32to1 twist/ft if semi syn!


----------



## Marshy

CR888 said:


> l was out many pages ago due to one or two that have never had a foot up the a$$. But l keep dropping in to how many times ya's all been round the track. Its an endless journey the oil thread it just goes round and round but l must say its kinda dappa when the op posts Belray's side of the story and stuff. My saws parts and plastics wear out way faster than the engines. l have seen many stihl saws run on stihls cheapest orange bottle stuff and seen decades of service on farms. l can replace many of my saws within two years buy NOT running top dollar name brand ester base full synthetic oil. l think your better off finding a 'good' oil at a 'great' price, its actually easy. Full synthetic's biggest negative is price and you have to consider that in a commercial situation. There are plenty of fd rated semi synthetics out there at a fraction of the cost. You also need not worry about slow/poor ring seal during break in, rust, glazed piston's, loss of throttle response/power if one chooses a sensible 'semi synthetic' oil. Many semi synthetics are rated higher than their full synthetic cousins and give you kinda the best of 'both worlds'.


 
Thats why I recommended the OP try a blended oil.


----------



## Marshy

gunnusmc03 said:


> Ever see tropic thunder ?


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> ok sounds like the odds are stacked sky high against me. 10 to 1 favorites here? 20 to 1?
> 
> 
> So how much is the ported 661 running 32:1 belray, going to beat my stock 661 running 50:1 belray by? % percentage wise? ?? 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%?


30%


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Thats why I recommended the OP try a blended oil.


2R is a blended oil and there are many semi syn oils that are really good. Lowly Citgo air cooled is FD and EGD certified. And I mean actually certified, not just a claim they meet the spec.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> 2R is a blended oil and there are many semi syn oils that are really good. Lowly Citgo air cooled is FD and EGD certified. And I mean actually certified, not just a claim they meet the spec.


Isnt Citgo the base stock supply for Yamaha?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Isnt Citgo the base stock supply for Yamaha?


Not currently based on the latest msds sheet I saw, but they have made 2R in the past.
One mistake people make is assuming the company marketing an oil produces the oil. In reality most are just blenders. Companies like Amsoil, Belray etc simply buy base oils and then blend with additives they get from companies like Lubrizol. That's one advantage Mobil had and why MX2T was so good. They could custom taylor base oils to that particular product, a luxury blenders do not have.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Not currently based on the latest msds sheet I saw, but they have made 2R in the past.
> One mistake people make is assuming the company marketing an oil produces the oil. In reality most are just blenders. Companies like Amsoil, Belray etc simply buy base oils and then blend with additives they get from companies like Lubrizol. That's one advantage Mobil had and why MX2T was so good. They could custom taylor base oils to that particular product, a luxury blenders do not have.


Motul, belray, or klotz have their own?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Motul, belray, or klotz have their own?


I'm not sure about Motul, but the other two defiantly do not operate refineries.


----------



## blsnelling

Would you classify the following oils in the same class?

*Maxima Super-M* - http://www.maximausa.com/product/super-m/
*Motul 710* - https://m.motul.com/us/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/710-2t--2
*Yamalube 2R* - https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf
*Lucas* - http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/lucas-semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil
*WoodlandPro Synthetic* - http://www.baileysonline.com/PDF/WoodsmanPro2cycle.pdf


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> So how much is the ported 661 running 32:1 belray, going to beat my stock 661 running 50:1 belray by? % percentage wise? ?? 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%?


How could I possibly answer that?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Just go with the ratio...so with a 32:1 ratio, i say the odds are 32:1 it will win by 32%


----------



## Trx250r180

If you guys are gonna race ,put em side by side like this ,i have a feeling Redbull660 will be in the car to the right though ........


----------



## blsnelling

So, if the ported saw doesn't win by at least 30%, you win?!!! You've gone from the stock saw winning, to demanding that the ported saw win by 30%!


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> ok so if the ported 661 32:1 belray doesn't win agains my muff modded 661 with 50:1 belray, by say at least 30% what do I get?
> 
> How about you guys cover my gas to get there and back? $50.


U would get a pint of yamalube 2r!!!! Lol!!!


----------



## blsnelling

You started this by confidently stating that you would beat the ported saw. The burden of proof is on you.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Would you classify the following oils in the same class?
> 
> *Maxima Super-M* - http://www.maximausa.com/product/super-m/
> *Motul 710* - https://m.motul.com/us/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/710-2t--2
> *Yamalube 2R* - https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf
> *Lucas* - http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/lucas-semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil


Same class?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Same class?


Similar base oils and protection level.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> So why don't ya put up some money where your mouth is?


Because I'm simply not that interested. I can perform my own test the next time a stock 661 comes in. I simply don't believe it makes that much difference.

If I were going to spend money on testing oil, I'd be testing is protection level, and then cleanliness.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> well you guys are sooo confident the ported 661 is going to destroy my muff modded 661. I'm not saying that i win.
> 
> I'm just saying that since you guys are sooo confident, if it doesn't beat me by 30% ya'll should cover my gas cost.
> 
> but maybe now 30% is too high?



Even if you have your other 661 ported ,and run it against the stock saw on your dime ,they will still find loop holes in the testing ,just too many variables in this stuff ,all it would prove is what those 2 saws were ,in the type of wood you were cutting .

I do enjoy the test vids if it makes a rats ass ,and i have branched out of my comfort zone on mix because of them ,so i still give you an attaboy for all the effort put into this stuff .

And if you guys need chain , now is the time to get a good deal on some .


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> interesting... you had the opportunity to show how much faster your ported 661 was over a stock 661 and you didn't do it.


If I want to send my saw anywhere for testing, I'll send it to Chad to run on a real dyno. Until then, the videos I posted above are sufficient evidence of the difference in my ported saw.

It's amazing how *you* made an insane claim, and are now trying to *project* the burden of proof *onto someone else*. Simply amazing.


----------



## Andyshine77

I like pie, anyone else?


----------



## KenJax Tree

This gets better and better[emoji1]


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> I like pie, anyone else?


Apple, cherry, or strawberry?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Similar base oils and protection level.


The base oil blends are all different and it's impossible to say that based on a MSDS sheet.
I think you really need to forget about protection level, as it's likely all are much more than adequate. There are other factors that are much more important for a work saw application, be it ported or stock.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well you guys are sooo confident that i'm just going to get destroyed. So if I'm driving 9hrs, I think you guys should have something at stake as well that's all.


Epic back peddle..


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Apple, cherry, or strawberry?


Apple!! [emoji1]


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Apple, cherry, or strawberry?


Any of thoso base stocks will be good as long as the ratio is right so they dont plug the exhaust up!!!!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> base oils... I'll take the belray 90% ester base oil with 10% additives over any of this other garbage 30-75% blah blah base oil + this that and the other thing. Well 800 is interesting...another all ester base oil.
> 
> h1r and 800 = simple
> 
> 
> interesting... you had the opportunity to show how much faster your ported 661 was over a stock 661 and you didn't do it.
> 
> 
> how about instead of me spending 9hrs in the car. I pay for you to ship your ported 661 to a neutral location which is close to me. Stihlivin is close to me. I'm by twin cities MN.


I am sure you would, but only because you don't know what the hell your talking about.. I challenge you to find an actual FD or EGD certified oil that's straight high temp ester like H1R. You won't because such oils can't pass the smoke or deposit tests. And these test are really scientific tests, not the ridiculous "fun with chainsaws" tests you are running.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> why cuz i don't want to drive 9hrs to do it with out getting something in return if I win.


BS!


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> I think you really need to forget about protection level, as it's likely all or much more than adequate. There are other factors that are much more important for a work saw application, be it ported or stock.


What are your priorities in choosing an oil?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Any of thoso base stocks will be good as long as the ratio is right so they dont plug the exhaust up!!!!


Given the correct load and oil 16:1 can run very clean. You have twice the detergents running through the engine.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> What are your priorities in choosing an oil?


Cleanliness, lack of smoke, lack of a negative effect on combustion no matter the ratio and matching the oil to the application/load, in no order.


----------



## blsnelling

I see that Motul 710 is FD rated. I didn't see a rating on the others I listed. Are any of the ester oils discussed rated?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Cleanliness, lack of smoke, lack of a negative effect on combustion no matter the ratio and matching the oil to the application/load, in no order.


And I take it that is because you believe they will all provide the necessary protection?


----------



## Marshy

redbull660 said:


> why cuz i don't want to drive 9hrs to do it with out getting something in return if I win.


You get the right to say "told ya so". Isnt that whats its all about? Thats why you and BWalker keep posting isnt it? Because you right your right your right..? It's way more satisfying to prove your right than just say it. 

I think unless you perform the test on a dyno your waisting time, fuel and money. JMO Carry on while I eat this pie.


----------



## Marshy

redbull660 said:


> so you hosers aren't going to give me anything if Im right and beat or break even with the ported by running 50 instead of 32?


Maybe a beer and a hand shake if I was attending. Minimum, one of these. 

The best part is you would get to serve pie... humble pie. The best there is. Or you end up eating it, one or the other.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Cleanliness, lack of smoke, lack of a negative effect on combustion no matter the ratio and matching the oil to the application/load, in no order.



Shouldn't the carcinogens be considered that cause Cancer in the oils? Or am I overly concerned. I had a friend at 43 die from lung cancer. He didn't smoke. Nor run chainsaws either.....But long cuts down low behind a Goonie with not much wind you sure ingest a lot of fumes.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> drive 9hrs for a beer and a handshake. screw that. brad should have to port a saw for me for being so WRONG! (assuming im right)


What are you smoking? You're the one that made such an insane claim. You're the one that wants to know so badly.


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> it's BS cuz I don't want to drive 9 hrs. LOL
> 
> When someone could just send a saw to a neutral location around here.



I am driving 20 hours round trip, no one is paying my gas  I had my saw ported, no one chipped in for that  

9 hrs of your time and $50 in gas is a DROP in the bucket compared to what has been spent on these saw. So small IMO it is NOT even worth mentioning!! You wanted the challenge, bring your saw.

You want a prize or have to have something in the name of this race/test, here you go. (see picture)

I will put this up,, 1 new quart of Belray, cost at my local power shop is $24.95 plus tax, so that is worth half of your gas money. 

Winner takes it home with him. 







*IF*, I was agree to ship my saw to this neutral location, who is going to pay the shipping *there & back*, me? I dont think so. 

So look at it this way, it's a wash, you pay your own way to the GTG, $50 in gas, or you pay the shipping*, both ways,,, IF *I was to agree to ship my saw to this neutral location


Don't make excuses, bring your saw to the Iowa GTG!! 

The only stipulation I would recommend, is your 661 should be stock, bone stock, put your stock muffler back on. But I guess if you dont want to or have to run your muffler modded 661, I am fine with that. But in the sake of the test I think it would be a better comparison to have your saw stock, that is just my opinion. 

.


----------



## blsnelling

No worries on the modded muffler. They're not choked up from the factory. Think old school 066.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> why cuz i don't want to drive 9hrs to do it with out getting something in return if I win.


Would you put your 661 up for that bet? Winner goes home with 2 661's?


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> so you hosers aren't going to give me anything if Im right and beat or break even with the ported by running 50 instead of 32?



NO ONE, is going to give ME anything, and I would not ask them to. Drive to the GTG, in name of CAD nothing more and noting less.

You think if I start a thread, looking for gas money to this GTG, people would fill my PayPal account, just so I could go, phuck no they would *not*, they'd tell me to fly a kite!!


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> not going with out my muffler modded. that is what I tested with and what I base my findings on.



like I said I'm fine with the muffler mod 661, if that is the way it has to be. So be it.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> put my saw up. lol the odds are totally stacked against me. Here is what I would do....


Have you forgotten what started this? Do you believe what you said or not?


----------



## KG441c

Winner will get to be like And get to .


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> maul - i commend you. but you wanted to go to the GTG. I would too but this is a blast down blast back sorta deal sunday morning only for me.



your right I *want *to go, 

but you *want *to test your theories of 32:1 vs 50:1 Belray, in a muffler mod 661 vs a ported 661

so we both *want *something here. 

And we will both *get *something....


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Risk something for once!


Seriously?


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> put my saw up. lol the odds are totally stacked against me. Here is what I would do....
> 
> Ok, how about if I go to the GTG.
> 
> my muff modded 661 running 50:1 belray vs maulhead's mastermind 661 running belray 32:1. If I lose by more than 10% then I pay 10 takers (take the other side of this bet) $5 each.
> 
> However, if the MM 661 doesn't beat me by at least 10%, then the 10 takers pay 10 to 1.



if you want 10 to 1 odds, get on a plane and fly to Vegas,,, that will cost you more then $50 in gas...

I dont want anything out of this test/race,, just going to have a good time, and see the results. 

You put up this challenge, without any disclaimers that you needed something out of it, in your return

I except your challenge, and I am willing to come more then half of the way, come on Redbull, meet me in Iowa. 


.


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> no one wants to take my bet eh? For 107 pages ...So confident in your beliefs, opinions, and old adages...
> 
> maul - fine, see what they have for wood down there. I'm not driving 9hrs unless they've got something worth doing this on.



I will PM the Homelite guy and see what they have going on for wood. 

I know they have 7x7 cottonwood cants, maybe we could strap 9 of them together and have a 21x21 cube. Just a thought.


----------



## Marshy

redbull660 said:


> no one wants to take my bet eh? For 107 pages ...So confident in your beliefs, opinions, and old adages...
> 
> maul - fine, see what they have for wood down there. I'm not driving 9hrs unless they've got something worth doing this on.
> 
> 
> yeah brad. Seriously.


Your going to lose anyways so why does it matter if they agree to a bet?


----------



## KenJax Tree

The odds are much greater that he don't even show up, than they are of him winning the bet.


----------



## KG441c

Somebody will walk away with their ass handed to them one way or the other!!


----------



## Steve NW WI

Redbull, if you're within 45 minutes of Scott's, I can pick you up on my way down. I'd also be willing to haul your saw and fuel down and back if you don't have time. I'll not run it though, I'm just a hack. There will be plenty of people there with no axe to grind and talent to do it though.


----------



## maulhead

KG441c said:


> Somebody will walk away with their ass handed to them one way or the other!!



what is it your trying to say,,,




or this,


----------



## maulhead

Steve NW WI said:


> Redbull, if you're within 45 minutes of Scott's, I can pick you up on my way down. I'd also be willing to haul your saw and fuel down and back if you don't have time. I'll not run it though, I'm just a hack. There will be plenty of people there with no axe to grind and talent to do it though.



QTLA,,,


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I see that Motul 710 is FD rated. I didn't see a rating on the others I listed. Are any of the ester oils discussed rated?


Yamalube is FD rated. The previous packaging listed it's cert number.
R50,K2, H1R and 800 are not rated.


----------



## KG441c

Steve NW WI said:


> Redbull, if you're within 45 minutes of Scott's, I can pick you up on my way down. I'd also be willing to haul your saw and fuel down and back if you don't have time. I'll not run it though, I'm just a hack. There will be plenty of people there with no axe to grind and talent to do it though.





maulhead said:


> what is it your trying to say,,,
> 
> View attachment 420411
> 
> 
> or this,
> 
> View attachment 420412


Lmbo!!!!!


----------



## maulhead

KG441c said:


> Lmbo!!!!!



and BTW no one is going to put their hands on my ass at this GTG,


----------



## big t double

maulhead said:


> and BTW no one is going to put their hands on my ass at this GTG,


then im not going


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Yamalube is FD rated. The previous packaging listed it's cert number.
> R50,K2, H1R and 800 are not rated.


Good enough for me


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Good enough for me
> View attachment 420415


Their current spec sheet says FD now.


----------



## Marshy

Steve NW WI said:


> Redbull, if you're within 45 minutes of Scott's, I can pick you up on my way down. I'd also be willing to haul your saw and fuel down and back if you don't have time. I'll not run it though, I'm just a hack. There will be plenty of people there with no axe to grind and talent to do it though.


 redbull, you just got served. Ballz in your court.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Their current spec sheet says FD now.


Saying and being are two different things. That said Maxima has a pretty good rep as does Motul.


----------



## Steve NW WI

redbull660 said:


> when are u leaving?


Friday noonish. Itinerary includes the tour of Mark's Museum of McCulloch on the way down, worth the day off of work by itself. Plan to head home Sat. afternoon sometime.


----------



## Marshy

View attachment 420412

This is worth reposting. Damnit, its supposed to show the pic.


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> View attachment 420412
> 
> This is worth reposting. Damnit, its supposed to show the pic.


Why does she have an adams apple ?


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> Why does she have an adams apple ?


I didnt see one. Was busy looking at her dimples, and not the ones on her face.


----------



## Mastermind

This thread got weird.

Lots of posts missing or something.


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> This thread got weird.
> 
> Lots of posts missing or something.


Hope they did not take the pie ones away 

Hullo sir


----------



## Hedgerow

Pfffttt...
This thread has always been a bit weird...


----------



## DexterDay

redbull660 said:


> well you guys are sooo confident that i'm just going to get destroyed. So if I'm driving 9hrs, I think you guys should have something at stake as well that's all.




You said your saw would beat the ported saw.

Even if the ported saw wins by 1%, you lose.

A number can not be associated with EVERY port job. Some saws have better numbers, some builders do things differently.

As for giving you something? I will give you $20 for gas if you come. Now you only need $30? If you win the race? The bottle of oil is close to that. I'm sure someone else will spare $5 or $10 to see this race. 


I'm driving 10 hrs myself. It's going to be a great time. Whether you lose or lose.  lol (see what I did there. . Hahahahaha).




redbull660 said:


> I challenge any ported 661 out there. You run 32:1 I'll run 50:1 h1r. same bar, same bar oil, get same gas but mix diff oil in obviously, and new chains.



You said you would win. Not how much a ported saw had to win by? 



redbull660 said:


> Yes. I think my muff modded 661 running 50:1 will beat a ported 661 running 32:1. I don't believe you can make up 7 seconds. I believe your running to much oil and it's slowing down the piston and overheating the saw.
> 
> Dex!!! wuts up baby! heh yeah dude same roll. why i like to get 2 or 3 logs and 1 cut cut each in succession. See below.



Results would be more consistent if you did 3 cuts in each log and take an average.

I would love to meet you. Come out and have a beer with us. Oil thread or not... This GTG in Iowa is going to be a blast!! 
Come shoot the chit and run some saws. 

Hell, I'll run my ported 460 against your 661. Gives me a good baseline.


----------



## maulhead

Mastermind said:


> Y'all are all crazy.
> 
> I've been building fence........
> 
> The weather is lovely today.....so back on the barded wire.




We'll crazy,, says the ported saw builder...  

I like it!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Any commitment from Redbull yet?


----------



## maulhead

KenJax Tree said:


> Any commitment from Redbull yet?





so far tonight...


----------



## KenJax Tree

[emoji1]Lol i was gonna post that earlier waiting for a response after Steve NW WI posted about riding with him or taking the saw.


----------



## .404

Steve NW WI said:


> Friday noonish. Itinerary includes the tour of Mark's Museum of McCulloch on the way down, worth the day off of work by itself. Plan to head home Sat. afternoon sometime.



Did you run out of pronouns, Blossom?




Hedgerow said:


> Pfffttt....



Was that a quiff? No them go Pffffffp-p-p.


----------



## Moparmyway

2 gallons of VP mixxed with R50 @ 32:1 in a very well ported 066. 

She cut the larger rounds too fast and I ran out of worthy wood, so she was 4 stroking hard for the last 2 or 3 cuts

Mdavlee, the piston top is just about spotless now, 74 jet is installed.


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> 2 gallons of VP mixxed with R50 @ 32:1 in a very well ported 066.
> 
> She cut the larger rounds too fast and I ran out of worthy wood, so she was 4 stroking hard for the last 2 or 3 cuts
> 
> Mdavlee, the piston top is just about spotless now, 74 jet is installed.


Good deal. Might be a bit better with that jet.


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> Good deal. Might be a bit better with that jet.


I could tell right away.


----------



## Moparmyway

661 with 32:1 H1R on left
Freak 066 with 32:1 R50 on right


----------



## bikemike

This is why AS is running slow. Its not ported enough and to thick on oil. Id still say a ported saw will wax a stock lean saw all day everyday. Someone better record the micro oil gtg and post it bet he shows up with a saw that is timing advanced or modded some how. To think stock will spank a ported saw. I like it sounds a bit like stihlwontstart guy calling everyone on with a ms 170 and bc classes


----------



## bikemike

Moparmyway said:


> 661 with 32:1 H1R on left
> Freak 066 with 32:1 R50 on right


Now if it was in mn id chose the freek for rust prevention lol nice a juicy not dry like dust


----------



## Moparmyway

bikemike said:


> Its not ported enough and to thick on oil.


----------



## Moparmyway

bikemike said:


> Now if it was in mn id chose the freek for rust prevention lol nice a juicy not dry like dust


They are both coated very well.
The H1R mix is doodoo brown, and that's probably helping it to look dirty throughout.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> then im not going



I knew you were queer.

You guys should have some naked posters of randy with his bananas up for grabs on your bets..it would give some guys a real motivation to win.

Maybe my sawmikaze worksaws ms 170 with XD's and square chain mixed at 50:1 with beat this here 661 with 32:1.

What do you fellers think ?


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I knew you were queer.
> 
> You guys should have some naked posters of randy with his bananas up for grabs on your bets..it would give some guys a real motivation to win.
> 
> Maybe my sawmikaze worksaws ms 170 with XD's and square chain mixed at 50:1 with beat this here 661 with 32:1.
> 
> What do you fellers think ?


I'm only a fag on the weekends Ryan. And how do you know that poster is hangin on my wall?!?! How can I get a sawmikaze work saw 170. I got about 600 to spend...that do it?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> 2 gallons of VP mixxed with R50 @ 32:1 in a very well ported 066.
> 
> She cut the larger rounds too fast and I ran out of worthy wood, so she was 4 stroking hard for the last 2 or 3 cuts
> 
> Mdavlee, the piston top is just about spotless now, 74 jet is installed.


Your blowing oil out the exhaust like crazy..


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> 2 gallons of VP mixxed with R50 @ 32:1 in a very well ported 066.
> 
> She cut the larger rounds too fast and I ran out of worthy wood, so she was 4 stroking hard for the last 2 or 3 cuts
> 
> Mdavlee, the piston top is just about spotless now, 74 jet is installed.


Looks like unburnt fuel is coming out your exhaust. Can you post a video of this saw cutting if it runs?


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> 2 gallons of VP mixxed with R50 @ 32:1 in a very well ported 066.
> 
> She cut the larger rounds too fast and I ran out of worthy wood, *so she was 4 stroking hard for the last 2 or 3 cuts*
> 
> Mdavlee, the piston top is just about spotless now, 74 jet is installed.





bwalker said:


> Your blowing oil out the exhaust like crazy..


Thanks Capt Obvious 



Marshy said:


> Looks like unburnt fuel is coming out your exhaust. if it runs?


She was nice and normal during most of the cuts and got wet at the end. (Longer idling and much less load).
She runs Marshy, don't know why you would think otherwise


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> She was nice and normal during most of the cuts and got wet at the end. (Longer idling and much less load).
> She runs Marshy, don't know why you would think otherwise


 
Im sure it runs, just joshin ya. Lets see a cut with that beast.


----------



## Marshy

redbull660 said:


> been talking to homelite about the Iowa GTG. Sounds like there will be some good wood there.
> 
> Also looks like I might be able to do some tests after maulhead's ported 661 kicks my muff modded 661's azz!
> 
> 
> Test I was thinking of that might be fun:
> 
> *661 - 18" wood. 20" 24" 28" 30" and 36" bar - do some cuts see how the times differ and if temp of saw differs with different length bars. *
> 
> The above would be with 3/8ths tsumura bars. I could also do .404 bars as well.


 


Im sure theres a little extra resistance from having to turn more chain but you'll have the same number of teeth in the cut so I wouldnt expect a significant difference between cuts.


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> Lets see a cut with that beast.


I gave up on videoing my stuff ...............
When mdavlee ran it after he ported it, he said that he was impressed.
So am I !!
He might have posted a video of it somewhere

****
Just an aside, she was wearing a 25" RS square filed with deep rakers.
Unless the tip was buried, she would 4 stroke in the cut.
I didn't want to lean her out anymore, WOT was already above 14,000
She was built for the bigger stuff, not general bucking, more for stumping.


----------



## bikemike

Marshy said:


> Looks like unburnt fuel is coming out your exhaust. Can you post a video of this saw cutting if it runs?


Put a torch to the exhaust gasses as its running maybe it will burn the saw dust up too


----------



## Marshy

Sounds like your leaving a lot of performance on the table with your tune then. Unloaded RPM just gets you in the ball park for tuning. Its not something I would use to set my final tune on a saw. I just go by ear and feel in the cut. Ideally, it should cleanup right after it enters the cut and not need moderate to heavy pressure to get it to clean up in the cut... jut my $0.02...


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> Sounds like your leaving a lot of performance on the table with your tune then. Unloaded RPM just gets you in the ball park for tuning. Its not something I would use to set my final tune on a saw. I just go by ear and feel in the cut. Ideally, it should cleanup right after it enters the cut and not need moderate to heavy pressure to get it to clean up in the cut... jut my $0.02...


I only used WOT as a reference, if you read into what I wrote in those posts, it might weigh heavier on you.


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> I only used WOT as a reference, if you read into what I wrote in those posts, it might weigh heavier on you.


 
Just sayin, having to bury a 25" bar to get it to clean up is FAT. Probably why the top of your piston is shiny.

I said fat, I hope 08f150 doesnt post a pic now.


----------



## bikemike

One of my saws runs 25:1 mix who has a problem with that? Thats what is recommended for this 15cc pig


----------



## Marshy

bikemike said:


> One of my saws runs 25:1 mix who has a problem with that? Thats what is recommended for this 15cc pig View attachment 420599
> View attachment 420600


 Is it ported?


----------



## bikemike

Marshy said:


> Is it ported?


No to port it it would need a dental grinder. Im going ro leave it stock. I paid 40 for it and the cheepest one on ebay and craigslist is 400 to 600


----------



## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> Looks like unburnt fuel is coming out your exhaust. Can you post a video of this saw cutting if it runs?



I bet it runs like this


----------



## Marshy

It almost sounds like its ported.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I bet it runs like this



It sure dang does !!!!


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> Just sayin, having to bury a 25" bar to get it to clean up is FAT. Probably why the top of your piston is shiny.


I agree. However, if I did tune the saw to that little bar, the WOT would have been above 15,000.
She was built to run a 36" .404 stumping, not flex its muscles cutting 22" cookies.
Excess RPM's on something known to spin main races is just asking for Mr. Murphy to join in.


----------



## blsnelling

Marshy said:


> It almost sounds like its ported.


I bet that thing is leaking bar oil into the crankcase.


----------



## bikemike

blsnelling said:


> I bet that thing is leaking bar oil into the crankcase.


Or it needs high tack low sling oil for all the power it makes


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Thanks Capt Obvious
> 
> 
> She was nice and normal during most of the cuts and got wet at the end. (Longer idling and much less load).
> She runs Marshy, don't know why you would think otherwise


You must be happy with your equipment running like chit.. the H1R ran saw.looks hardly ran, but it's building up unburnt oil in the muffler too.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I went through the entire thread again. Kind of a summary of key points:
> 
> 
> - A chainsaw was a low stress application relative to motorcycles and other small engines with the same displacement but far more hp being squeezed out of it.
> 
> - All ester oils burn clean - obviously not true as Stihl ultra is pretty dirty. So it depends.
> 
> - Some agreed that the amount of oil was more critical then the quality. Figuring oils we are looking at, were designed for more stressful applications. 32:1 stihl ultra included in list. We know ultra burns really dirty specially at 40 and 32:1, so I'd have to disagree with them on the quality.
> 
> - Carbon Build up - Seems the over all consensus is that we want thinks as clean as they can be.
> 
> - Solvents - bwalker - noted that solvents typically don't work to remove carbon. And that solvents break down oil. So it would seem some are ok. But a lot would be less than ideal.
> 
> - Some say the high flash point oils (r2, k2, 710, lucus) don't combust very well or at all and leach heat and horse power out of the combustion chamber. They believe you do not see the benefits of these heavy viscosity oils in a low stress application like a chainsaw. They support the lower flash point oils that they view as offering more complete combustion and offer more horse power. They view the film strength loss with said lower flash point oils as a problem of the past.
> 
> - While others support the higher flash point heavier viscosity oils. (r50 800 h1r) especially in the ported saws or saws used for milling. Protection seems to be the primary reasoning. Citing bearings last longer with more oil, ring seal is better, more compression, hp is higher.
> 
> - either of these sides seem to favor a 32:1 ratio. adding my 2 cents...I am of the opinion that the higher viscosity oils should be used, but tested/tried at lower ratios than the accepted norm. Such as 36:1 40:1 42:1 45:1. Especially in stock saws.
> 
> - synthetic vs conventional - It was noted that you need less synthetic because it burns slower.
> 
> - PIB is noted as doing a great job of preventing scuffing. Also noted is that Scuff resistance is largely a component of the viscosity. And that the viscosity of PIB is much higher than the viscosity listed. Viscosity listed is the over all. my two cents...after looking into PIB further it has been stated it is the component of some synthetic oils which causes "glazing".
> 
> - Strato - it is noted that they like to be run more lean. Also noted that the mtronics tend to run rich. adding my 2 cents... maybe this is why the 361 and 661 seemed to like 45:1 while the 660 liked 40:1 in my tests.
> 
> - certified oil JASO ISO - this seems like it would make things easier. But I would note Stihl Ultra is Jaso- and it burns dirty.
> 
> - dyno - one person cited that the increases in hp with increased oil - could likely be a direct results of the saw being leaned out.


I could correct all that's wrong with this post, but it would take all day.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I could correct all that's wrong with this post, but it would take all day.





redbull660 said:


> ...hell a fair amount of it, is stuff you said!




Priceless


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> - All ester oils burn clean - obviously not true as Stihl ultra is pretty dirty. So it depends.


I spoke with a customer of mine that runs Stihl Ultra @ 40:1 and the crown of his pistons are completely clean. The difference? He runs 100LL fuel. This would suggest that the fuel has as much to do with it as the oil. Food for thought


----------



## Marshy

blsnelling said:


> I bet that thing is leaking bar oil into the crankcase.


Mo' oil makes mo' powa!


----------



## KG441c

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> I spoke with a customer of mine that runs Stihl Ultra @ 40:1 and the crown of his pistons are completely clean. The difference? He runs 100LL fuel. This would suggest that the fuel has as much to do with it as the oil. Food for thought



Is it because the race gas is not burning as hot ?


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> not the way you answer stuff!
> 
> ...hell a fair amount of it, is stuff you said!



His answers remind me of how DC used to answer stuff ,would not go right out an blurt an answer ,but would give you hints so you learn something by having to figure it out .


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> Is it because the race gas is not burning as hot ?


AV Gas. I don't know.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> not the way you answer stuff!
> 
> ...hell a fair amount of it, is stuff you said!


Some of it is. THE CORRECT STUFF!.
Somes stuff you incorrectly infered..no supprise there.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Is it because the race gas is not burning as hot ?


Avgas distillation curve is such that unless you run real hot you end up puking liquid fuel out the exhaust is it doesn't vaporise when it reaches the crankcase or during combustion. This will wash the piston clean.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Is it because the race gas is not burning as hot ?


All gasoline has roughly the same BTU content provided it's not doped with ethanol or in the case of race fuel it's not doped with MTBE, Isoprene, etc.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> His answers remind me of how DC used to answer stuff ,would not go right out an blurt an answer ,but would give you hints so you learn something by having to figure it out .


Give a man fish or teach him to fish? Lots of people want hand outs around here..


----------



## Metals406

Marshy said:


> It almost sounds like its ported.



All mosquitos were harmed in the making of this video.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


Super hunky is a entertaining guy but their are some technical mistruths in that article.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Priceless


You still trying to figure out how a motors fuel requirements increase with load?? That's priceless! Maybe in a few years you will get it? OTOH probably not.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Super hunky is a entertaining guy but their are some technical mistruths in that article.


Which are?


----------



## bwalker

One other thing about avgas is that it's a very clean fuel, lead withstanding. It.will not form.gum or varnish for a very long time. Like 5 years or more. ASPEN fuel that is marketed in Europe is a high alkylate fuel similar to avgas but minus the lead and also it has a more appropriate distillation curve.
Pump fuels are so.low in quality now days that they end up forming much of the deposits you see in a two cycle. If you use of a good race fuel like VP C12 or MR2, which both have distillation curves compatible with a two cycle you will have a pretty clean motor provided you use a decent quality oil.


----------



## bikemike

Marshy said:


> It almost sounds like its ported.



Bet they had a mosquito problem to deal with. Fog em out


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Give a man fish or teach him to fish? Lots of people want hand outs around here..


Was brought up that way ,good saying to go by ,Give a man a fish he eats for a day ,Teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime .


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Which are?


The comment on octane is a huge blanket statement that isnt universaly true nor false. The info for the most part is dated, IE the Husky test, so it shouldn't be applied the present.
The overall jist if it is correct.


----------



## Ron660

****


blsnelling said:


> I spoke with a customer of mine that runs Stihl Ultra @ 40:1 and the crown of his pistons are completely clean. The difference? He runs 100LL fuel. This would suggest that the fuel has as much to do with it as the oil. Food for thought


I use Sunoco 110 with my Motul 800 off-road mixed at 32:1. My compression is over 210psi. Works for me.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I spoke with a customer of mine that runs Stihl Ultra @ 40:1 and the crown of his pistons are completely clean. The difference? He runs 100LL fuel. This would suggest that the fuel has as much to do with it as the oil. Food for thought


That's what I said about a 1,000 posts ago. Like I said, no new information in this thread!!![emoji8]


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> That's what I said about a 1,000 posts ago. Like I said, no new information in this thread!!![emoji8]


So did I when Brad posted the pic of that 441 milling piston.. Was that like 50 pages back?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> ****
> 
> I use Sunoco 110 with my Motul 800 off-road mixed at 32:1. My compression is over 210psi. Works for me.


If your going to run race fuel I would seriously look at VP MRX2. It will make about 7% more power due to its o2 content and it's distillation curve is matched to a two stroke.


----------



## KG441c

Im not following where we r suppose to think the piston is suppose to be perfectly clean on top without some depoists? Like I mentioned before the only way would be to use so much oil that it washes the depoists out but then u r getting tons of unburned fuel and oil out the muffler? Wouldnt it make more sense if u were getting a complete efficient burn from your fuel and oil at the right performance level that some depoists would have to eventually form on top of the piston?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> If your going to run race fuel I would seriously look at VP MRX2. It will make about 7% more power due to its o2 content and it's distillation curve is matched to a two stroke.


 Thanks...good information. I read somewhere the oxygenated fuel may cause internal corrision issues. Truthful??


----------



## Marshy

KG441c said:


> Im not following where we r suppose to think the piston is suppose to be perfectly clean on top without some depoists? Like I mentioned before the only way would be to use so much oil that it washes the depoists out but then u r getting tons of unburned fuel and oil out the muffler? Wouldnt it make more sense if u were getting a complete efficient burn from your fuel and oil at the right performance level that some depoists would have to eventually form on top of the piston?


Yes, you are thinking correct. Some carbon on the piston top is expected when the air/fuel mix is correct. Too much fuel washes off the deposits and means the combustion temp it low. Google piston wash. The ultralight guys have great info on piston wash. It's not the oil that washes the piston but rather too much fuel.


----------



## whitedogone

Holy crap....THE oil thread to end all oil threads....not


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Thanks...good information. I read somewhere the oxygenated fuel may cause internal corrision issues. Truthful??


Yes, it's very true if the oxygenate is ethanol. The VP fuel I mentioned uses MTBE, which doesn't cause corrosion of screw up tuning like ethanol does.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Im not following where we r suppose to think the piston is suppose to be perfectly clean on top without some depoists? Like I mentioned before the only way would be to use so much oil that it washes the depoists out but then u r getting tons of unburned fuel and oil out the muffler? Wouldnt it make more sense if u were getting a complete efficient burn from your fuel and oil at the right performance level that some depoists would have to eventually form on top of the piston?


If the piston is bare metal clean it either hasn't been run long or nits way rich. Ideally the piston should be a light brown color with a small amount of wash where the transfers discharge. More common is a black dull black coating of carbon and a small amount of wash where the transfers discharge. On a saw these wash spots should be approximately the size of a pencil eraser.
The guys who claim bare metal are inadvertently admitting they can't tune a saw to save their lives.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> If the piston is bare metal clean it either hasn't been run long or nits way rich. Ideally the piston should be a light brown color with a small amount of wash where the transfers discharge. More common is a black dull black coating of carbon and a small amount of wash where the transfers discharge. On a saw these wash spots should be approximately the size of a pencil eraser.
> The guys who claim bare metal are inadvertently admitting they can't tune a saw to save their lives.


One other thing to look for is mettalic deposits on the crown and combustion chamber. These will look like extremely rough texture, raised globules or balls. These are bad because they can heat up till the glow under heavy load and cause pre ignition. I recently tore down a 346 for a friend that was ran most recently on Klotz Super Techniplate. It wasn't as bad as I thought cleanliness wise, but the piston crown and head had alot of mettalic buildup.
FYI motul 800t has the highest mettalic content(as measured by the sulfated ash test) of any two cycle oil I have seen.
the metal content is from calcium based detergents and from ZDDP added as an anti wear additive. This is one example of why it's smart to match oils to applications.


----------



## blsnelling

My only point was that Ultra isn't necessarily a dirty oil, as RedBull suggested. I've personally never seen a bare metal piston crown in any saw, ever. I've also never used 100LL for any length of time.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> The guys who claim bare metal are inadvertently admitting they can't tune a saw to save their lives.


Bare metal .................... 661


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Under heavy load you may vaporise the very small amount fuel that typically isn't vaporised, but this would make the motor go rich, not lean.





bwalker said:


> You still trying to figure out how a motors fuel requirements increase with load??



Priceless epic fail


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Priceless epic


Removing all doubt as to how little you can comprehend..
You think I have contradicted myself, but I have not....


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Bare metal .................... 661


Little run time...


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> My only point was that Ultra isn't necessarily a dirty oil, as RedBull suggested. I've personally never seen a bare metal piston crown in any saw, ever. I've also never used 100LL for any length of time.


Saying Ultra is dirty, then cheerleading H1R in a saw is a real joke..


----------



## Outlaw5.0

bwalker said:


> If your going to run race fuel I would seriously look at VP MRX2. It will make about 7% more power due to its o2 content and it's distillation curve is matched to a two stroke.


I checked the VP website and it specifically says to keep that fuel cool, that could be a issue on a hot day.


----------



## bwalker

Outlaw5.0 said:


> I checked the VP website and it specifically says to keep that fuel cool, that could be a issue on a hot day.


I would leave it in a metal can and mix only enough to use at one time. But really the same goes for any race fuel. You really don't want all those low boiling point components evaporating off. This isn't as big of a concern with pump gas due to changes in regards to evaporative emissions standards, but it still isn't a great idea to let your fuel get warm.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've used VP T4 with good results, they also have T2 which is premixed 40:1. I would assume it has Motul oil in it like SEF.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

I have had good luck with SEF and C10 mixed 40-1 with Stihl Ultra. That new VP fuel I will for sure try once I get my hands on some.

Any good racer will keep their fuel cool as possible away from sun light. Many of the race fuels you need rubber gloves to prevent it from getting on your skin.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> You think I have contradicted myself, but I have not....


Been asking for an explanation for some time now .....................


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> before it vaporizes ie turns into a gas....





bwalker said:


> Under heavy load you may vaporise the very small amount fuel that typically isn't vaporised, but this would make the motor go rich, not lean.



Fuel and air are compressed before combustion, most of the fuel burns in its liquid (atomized) state. You would have us to believe that most of the fuel is turned to a vapor, then combustion occurs; this is incorrect and where you are wrong.

Under heavier loads, the motor requires more fuel due to more of the atomized fuel flashing off into a vapor from the additional heat generated.

Atomized fuel in its liquid state provides combustion, fuel vapors burn at different rates and contribute very little to the power that atomized fuel produces.

http://inventors.about.com/library/...be29d3fc-99b1-4f9c-9f2c-bfb8ea8161f5-0-ab_gsb


----------



## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> Im not following where we r suppose to think the piston is suppose to be perfectly clean on top without some depoists? Like I mentioned before the only way would be to use so much oil that it washes the depoists out but then u r getting tons of unburned fuel and oil out the muffler? Wouldnt it make more sense if u were getting a complete efficient burn from your fuel and oil at the right performance level that some depoists would have to eventually form on top of the piston?


This is what I look for. I concern myself with scavenging and proper tune more so than a little bit of carbon. A little bit of carbon coating in the exhaust port works as a insulator. A polished surface doesn't heat as fast, but it will hold heat longer. So for me I don't mind a little bit of a coating. The redundancy of this thread is insane.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> This is what I look for. I concern myself with scavenging and proper tune more so than a little bit of carbon. A little bit of carbon coating in the exhaust port works as a insulator. A polished surface doesn't heat as fast, but it will hold heat longer. So for me I don't mind a little bit of a coating. The redundancy of this thread is insane.


Looks a little rich but is a decent example of what a piston should look like.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Looks a little rich but is.a decent example of what a piston should look like.


It's a strato saw that I ported that has run 40:1 Lucas. I told you about 65 pages back I'd get you a picture of a piston. Problem was that I didn't have time just to tear a saw down to take a picture.


Oh and it's m-tronic


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> It's a strato saw that I ported that has run 40:1 Lucas. I told you about 65 pages back I'd get you a picture of a piston. Problem was that I didn't have time just to tear a saw down to take a picture.
> 
> 
> Oh and it's m-tronic


That makes sense. Strato pistons look a little different. I have a Redman 8000 blower that looks almost identical after 5 years of daily commercial use in season and heavy home use there after for 7 years.


----------



## Moparmyway

cuttinties said:


> It's a strato saw that I ported that has run 40:1 Lucas. I told you about 65 pages back I'd get you a picture of a piston. Problem was that I didn't have time just to tear a saw down to take a picture.
> 
> 
> Oh and it's m-tronic


I think it looks good !
Have any pictures of the rest of the piston ?
How much run time ?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> That makes sense. Strato pistons look a little different. I have a Redman 8000 blower that looks almost identical after 5 years of daily commercial use in season and heavy home use there after for 7 years.


What I've found in my experience is that the better the scavenging process is the cleaner things will be. Making use of what's pumped through will limit carbon build up as there's less waste or excess. The less that's trapped in the squish area the better that's where chitty carbon comes from.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Another good looking piston with Lucas[emoji106]


----------



## cuttinties

Moparmyway said:


> I think it looks good !
> Have any pictures of the rest of the piston ?
> How much run time ?


I'll pull the muffler back off in a bit.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Fuel and air are compressed before combustion, most of the fuel burns in its liquid (atomized) state. You would have us to believe that most of the fuel is turned to a vapor, then combustion occurs; this is incorrect and where you are wrong.
> 
> Under heavier loads, the motor requires more fuel due to more of the atomized fuel flashing off into a vapor from the additional heat generated.
> 
> Atomized fuel in its liquid state provides combustion, fuel vapors burn at different rates and contribute very little to the power that atomized fuel produces.
> 
> http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blinternalcombustion.htm?utm_term=how a gasoline engine works&utm_content=p1-main-1-title&utm_medium=sem&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=adid-be29d3fc-99b1-4f9c-9f2c-bfb8ea8161f5-0-ab_gsb_ocode-4346&ad=semD&an=google_s&am=broad&q=how a gasoline engine works&dqi=&o=4346&l=sem&qsrc=999&askid=be29d3fc-99b1-4f9c-9f2c-bfb8ea8161f5-0-ab_gsb


Liquids don't combust until they change phase to vapor so you are completely wrong.
Given the above the rest of your assumptions are wrong as well.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I would leave it in a metal can and mix only enough to use at one time. But really the same goes for any race fuel. You really don't want all those low boiling point components evaporating off. This isn't as big of a concern with pump gas due to changes in regards to evaporative emissions standards, but it still isn't a great idea to let your fuel get warm.


 Already ahead of the game.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Liquids don't combust until they change phase to vapor...




Liquid fuel atomized (mixed with air) combust after ignition from the spark at the plug, this is not a diesel


----------



## cuttinties

KenJax Tree said:


> Another good looking piston with Lucas[emoji106]


Personally I like the viscosity, I'm happy with how it coats the piston. I've never had nor seen any separation either. But I don't let my fuel sit around, and I use strictly 87 e free. It's 12 one way and a dozen the other.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Liquid fuel atomized (mixed with air) combust after ignition from the spark at the plug, this is not a diesel


Except by the time it reaches the combustion chamber it's largely not liquid as it has been evaporated by coming in contact with hot engine parts. Gasoline boils off at room temperature, so you really think it makes it to the combustion chamber in a liquid state? This change in phase is also what deposits oil on your bearings, cylinder wall, etc as liquid fuel/ oil mix doesn't have very good lubrication qualities...


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Liquid fuel atomized (mixed with air) combust after ignition from the spark at the plug, this is not a diesel



Here is a test ,throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas ,it will not light ,the liquid will not combust ,the fumes coming off the bucket of gas will though .I think this is the part he is trying to explain .The fumes are what burn .


----------



## cuttinties

Trx250r180 said:


> Here is a test ,throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas ,it will not light ,the liquid will not combust ,the fumes coming off the bucket of gas will though .I think this is the part he is trying to explain .The fumes are what burn .


Takes spark to light fuel. A cigarette doesn't have that.


Speaking of cigarette I think I'll have one.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Takes spark to light fuel. A cigarette doesn't have that.
> 
> 
> Speaking of cigarette I think I'll have one.


You are completely wrong and I am not going to bother trying to correct your ignorance.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Here is a test ,throw a lit cigarette into a bucket of gas ,it will not light ,the liquid will not combust ,the fumes coming off the bucket of gas will though .I think this is the part he is trying to explain .The fumes are what burn .


I don't know if I would try that as it just might ignite the vapors before it reaches the liquid fuel..
But one could certainly have a sparkplug submerged in fuel firing(if it didnt go to ground) and it would not ignite a damn thing.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> You are completely wrong and I am not going to bother trying to correct your ignorance.


If I'm wrong the explain. Because the way I see it throwing a smoldering cigarette into a liquid makes not smolder. Therefore you'd need some kind of spark to ignite.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> I don't know if I would try that as it just might ignite the vapors before it reaches the liquid fuel..
> But one could certainly have a sparkplug submerged in fuel firing(if it didnt go to ground) and it would not ignite a damn thing.


I've won money doing the cigarette into gas off people who think like this.


----------



## bwalker

Another example would be to use a spray bottle to spray diesel fuel on a lit candle. It would simply put the candle out. 
The only difference in diesel fuel and gasoline is the temperatures in which their components boil off with diesel obviously boiling off at much higher temps.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Another example would be to use a spray bottle to spray diesel fuel on a lit candle. It would simply put the candle out.
> The only difference in diesel fuel and gasoline is the temperatures in which their components boil off with diesel obviously boiling off at much higher temps.


We're talking about pump gas as diesel chainsaws aren't exactly common.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> If I'm wrong the explain. Because the way I see it throwing a smoldering cigarette into a liquid makes not smolder. Therefore you'd need some kind of spark to ignite.


If enough vapors are present a cig will ignite gasoline. This is why smoking in a gas station is a bad idea..


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I don't know if I would try that as it just might ignite the vapors before it reaches the liquid fuel..
> But one could certainly have a sparkplug submerged in fuel firing(if it didnt go to ground) and it would not ignite a damn thing.


Is why it is safe to run wires into a fuel tank of a car i take it for the electric fuel pumps .


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> We're talking about pump gas as diesel chainsaws aren't exactly common.


No chit... the fact you can't connect the dots is telling..


----------



## bwalker

I bet Cutin can't understand that wood doesn't burn either..only the gases produced as its heated actually burn..


----------



## bwalker

Hate to do this in light of handing out fish..


----------



## KG441c

Bwalker a few questions. I agree the the oils with less viscosity as 2r,k2,710 ,lucas r gonna be more efficient in the combustion process and still offer the same protection in our application. Also think the right builup is indication of proper tuning and correct oil for our application. Will the lower viscosity oils at 32to1 offer the same protection in the bottomend as the ester oils at 32to1 and what are the negatives in the topend using the ester oils at 32to1 in the topend other than impeding the combustion process? Thanks


----------



## bwalker

Yes, they will.
The negatives are deposits. The more heat it takes to combust something fully the more dirty it is and for what good reason when you never need or reach its capabilities.
I would be comfortable in saying 2R.in particular can take on any abuse a saw is capable of dishing out, including the nastiest race. The stuff has a 30 some year track record in very demanding applications.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Yes, they will.
> The negatives are deposits. The more heat it takes to combust something fully the more dirty it is and for what good reason when you never need or reach its capabilities.
> I would be comfortable in saying 2R.in particular can take on any abuse a saw is capable of dishing out, including the nastiest race. The stuff has a 30 some year track record in very demanding applications.


Same philosophy that the tech at Maxima gave me


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Yes, they will.
> The negatives are deposits. The more heat it takes to combust something fully the more dirty it is and for what good reason when you never need or reach its capabilities.
> I would be comfortable in saying 2R.in particular can take on any abuse a saw is capable of dishing out, including the nastiest race. The stuff has a 30 some year track record in very demanding applications.


Whats ur opinion on Lucas?


----------



## Mastermind

After running several gallons of Yamalube 2R........I'm prolly gonna stick with it.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> After running several gallons of Yamalube 2R........I'm prolly gonna stick with it.


That Yamalube 2r is workin good in that hammer ole fence builder??!! Lol!!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Whats ur opinion on Lucas?


Never used it, so I can't say. Yamalube 2R is likely cheaper..hint..hint.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Never used it, so I can't say. Yamalube 2R is likely cheaper..hint..hint.


I cant find it that cheap unless I buy 6 qts at a time


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> I bet Cutin can't understand that wood doesn't burn either..only the gases produced as its heated actually burn..


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Hate to do this in light of handing out fish..



Relative to the oil, some fuel does evaporate (like I previousely stated http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-91#post-5320692), but 2 cycle motors, like all spark ignited motors rely on burning atomized fuel at the delivery of spark, not a spontaneous combustion like a diesel. I thought you knew about how a 2 cycle works ?


----------



## cuttinties

cuttinties said:


> Takes spark to light fuel. A cigarette doesn't have that.
> 
> 
> Speaking of cigarette I think I'll have one.





bwalker said:


> You are completely wrong and I am not going to bother trying to correct your ignorance.





bwalker said:


> I don't know if I would try that as it just might ignite the vapors before it reaches the liquid fuel..
> But one could certainly have a sparkplug submerged in fuel firing(if it didnt go to ground) and it would not ignite a damn thing.





cuttinties said:


> If I'm wrong the explain. Because the way I see it throwing a smoldering cigarette into a liquid makes not smolder. Therefore you'd need some kind of spark to ignite.





bwalker said:


> If enough vapors are present a cig will ignite gasoline. This is why smoking in a gas station is a bad idea..





bwalker said:


> I bet Cutin can't understand that wood doesn't burn either..only the gases produced as its heated actually burn..


Just in case you didn't see it the first time as you're bound to repeat yourself 


cuttinties said:


>


----------



## cuttinties

Oh and here's another one


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Relative to the oil, some fuel does evaporate (like I previousely stated http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-91#post-5320692), but 2 cycle motors, like all spark ignited motors rely on burning atomized fuel at the delivery of spark, not a spontaneous combustion like a diesel. I thought you knew about how a 2 cycle works ?


Everything said above is hog wash..
A two cycle motor like all motors combust fuels in a gas state. I never mentioned spontaneous combustion. And a diesel doesn't rely on spontaneous combustion either. It uses an ignition source just like a gasoline engine.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Everything said above is hog wash..
> A two cycle motor like all motors combust fuels in a gas state. I never mentioned spontaneous combustion. And a diesel doesn't rely on spontaneous combustion either. It uses an ignition source just like a gasoline engine.


  
Priceless


----------



## Moparmyway

Tell ya what ...... ever have any motor backfire through the intake or carb ?
Hows about it just about backfired, more like belched ?
You would have seen a fog (of fuel and air, atomized so it can be compressed and IGNITED by a spark plug).

(Now think about your vapor/gaseous fallicy where you believe all liquid is evaporated into its gaseous state prior to combustion .......... how come stuff is wet then if the plug don't fire ?
If it went to a gaseous state before ignition, the plug would be dry ........... try it as an experiment on your bench. Gases do burn, but not at the same intensity or rate as atomized fuel)

Its been fun, but lets see you grow up some, learn something, and stop throwing insults. Peace


----------



## MustangMike

Other than the glow plugs to get it going, a diesel ignites based on compression, there is no outside spark. Compression caused heat, that is why the compression ration of a gasoline motor is limited by the octane rating of the fuel (along with other variables).


----------



## cuttinties

MustangMike said:


> Other than the glow plugs to get it going, a diesel ignites based on compression, there is no outside spark. Compression caused heat, that is why the compression ration of a gasoline motor is limited by the octane rating of the fuel (along with other variables).


As far as I know there's very few running diesel chainsaws left in existence. So why we keep bringing up diesel fuel is beyond me.


----------



## MustangMike

Well it should not be beyond you, the discussion was about if you needed a spark to ignite the mixture. Clearly, you don't!


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Tell ya what ...... ever have any motor backfire through the intake or carb ?
> Hows about it just about backfired, more like belched ?
> You would have seen a fog (of fuel and air, atomized so it can be compressed and IGNITED by a spark plug).
> 
> (Now think about your vapor/gaseous fallicy where you believe all liquid is evaporated into its gaseous state prior to combustion .......... how come stuff is wet then if the plug don't fire ?
> If it went to a gaseous state before ignition, the plug would be dry ........... try it as an experiment on your bench. Gases do burn, but not at the same intensity or rate as atomized fuel)
> 
> Its been fun, but lets see you grow up some, learn something, and stop throwing insults. Peace


[/QUOTE]
Keep wallowing in ignorance.


----------



## Marshy

Just an educated guess, but I believe there is a combination of atomized fuel and vapors in the combustion chamber at time of combustion, not one or the other. By definition, atomized fuels is considered a liquid.


----------



## bikemike

Moparmyway said:


> Relative to the oil, some fuel does evaporate (like I previousely stated http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-91#post-5320692), but 2 cycle motors, like all spark ignited motors rely on burning atomized fuel at the delivery of spark, not a spontaneous combustion like a diesel. I thought you knew about how a 2 cycle works ?


It a 2 cycle kept a burn going when the transfers opened up it would blow the crank seals out. Yes it fire when the spark makes it fire. If they did run on burning vapors the a kill swith would be a choke and not a ground wire


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Well it should not be beyond you, the discussion was about if you needed a spark to ignite the mixture. Clearly, you don't!


Exactly.. diesels use compression to ignite their fuel charge.


----------



## bwalker

bikemike said:


> It a 2 cycle kept a burn going when the transfers opened up it would blow the crank seals out. Yes it fire when the spark makes it fire. If they did run on burning vapors the a kill swith would be a choke and not a ground wire


By the time the transfers open the pressure in the crankcase is higher than the pressure in the combustion chamber. But all this is a diversion by Moparcull. He doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and is wrong on all accords.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Just an educated guess, but I believe there is a combination of atomized fuel and vapors in the combustion chamber at time of combustion, not one or the other. By definition, atomized fuels is considered a liquid.


In a properly.tuned and running engine there is always a small amount of fuel a liquid/atomised form, but the majority is indeed in a gas state.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> In a properly.tuned and running engine there is always a small amount of fuel a liquid/atomised form, but the majority is indeed in a gas state.


This is too funny !!! ........... next time your 2 cycle floods and wont start, its flooded from too much gasses


----------



## MustangMike

Explain to me what part of my post you believe reflected ignorance. I believe everything I stated is clearly factual.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> This is too funny !!! ........... next time your 2 cycle floods and wont start, its flooded from too much gasses


You typically have a running engine flood?


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Explain to me what part of my post you believe reflected ignorance. I believe everything I stated is clearly factual.


Everything you said was spot on. The post refered to moparcull.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> In a properly.tuned and running engine there is always a small amount of fuel a liquid/atomised form, but the majority is indeed in a gas state.


Hey, when its too cold outside, do those gasses of yours condense back into liquid ?

I can only imagine -
"DONT BRING YOUR SAW OUT IN THE COLD, OR IT WILL LIQUID LOCK"     


OK, now I am a cull ???
You win....... you called me a cull, now you twisted my arm too much.


----------



## KG441c

Its alota testosterone in here!! Must be a full moon!!! Lol!!


----------



## KG441c

http://www.gohagan.com/pages/CustomCatalog/Product/7536


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Hey, when its too cold outside, do those gasses of yours condense back into liquid ?
> 
> I can only imagine -
> "DONT BRING YOUR SAW OUT IN THE COLD, OR IT WILL LIQUID LOCK"
> 
> 
> OK, now I am a cull ???
> You win....... you called me a cull, now you twisted my arm too much.


Yes, it's true, you are a complete cull and wrong....


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> That Yamalube 2r is workin good in that hammer ole fence builder??!! Lol!!



I dropped and bucked about 25 locust trees in Maryland Friday and Saturday. The Yamalube really is impressive oil. It is a much thinner viscosity oil, and mixes very well. It had no scent that I could smell, and the saws seemed to burn really clean on it. Oh......I like the color too.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I dropped and bucked about 25 locust trees in Maryland Friday and Saturday. The Yamalube really is impressive oil. It is a much thinner viscosity oil, and mixes very well. It had no scent that I could smell, and the saws seemed to burn really clean on it. Oh......I like the color too.


I bet John appreciates the smell? Lol!


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I dropped and bucked about 25 locust trees in Maryland Friday and Saturday. The Yamalube really is impressive oil. It is a much thinner viscosity oil, and mixes very well. It had no scent that I could smell, and the saws seemed to burn really clean on it. Oh......I like the color too.


The color thing isn't trivial. Non colored oils or those that are red make it hard to tell if there is oil in the gas. I am paranoid about running a saw with no oil in the gas!


----------



## Mastermind

He wasn't with me this trip......and yeah......I missed that boy. lol


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> The color thing isn't trivial. Non colored oils or those that are red make it hard to tell if there is oil in the gas. I am paranoid about running a saw with no oil in the gas!


A few drops of blue food coloring solves that problem.


----------



## Trx250r180

Is a dollar an oz. too much for a good oil ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Is a dollar an oz. too much for a good oil ?


I wouldn't pay 16 dollars a pint...


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> A few drops of blue food coloring solves that problem.


That might work, but I wouldn't want to put food coloring in my fuel.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Is a dollar an oz. too much for a good oil ?


Laugh if you want to, but I am thinking of mixing R50 and 800 along with some Lucas together to make 32:1. It should cut down on the smell of running R50 by itself, and give the protection and lubricity of R50, 800, and Lucas all in one shot ................. What do you think B ?


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Laugh if you want to, but I am thinking of mixing R50 and 800 along with some Lucas together to make 32:1. It should cut down on the smell of running R50 by itself, and give the protection and lubricity of R50, 800, and Lucas all in one shot ................. What do you think B ?


 You are going to need some of these for your fuel can


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> What do I think? That you should suck start a Glock 20..


Nobody asked you .............

I bet you think that gunpowder changes into a gaseous state before it ignites as well, eh ???


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> You are going to need some of these for your fuel can


Having gone this far into this thread, I might as well mix them ............. all the best working together to satisfy all concerns ??

The real reason; cause I got a lot of oil to use, and its a good way to use them all.


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Having gone this far into this thread, I might as well mix them ............. all the best working together to satisfy all concerns ??
> 
> The real reason; cause I got a lot of oil to use, and its a good way to use them all.


Get a mill for your saw ,you will run out fast ,i can burn through 5 gallons a day milling sometimes .Good way to make lumber for a nice fence for your place .

Not sure cocktailing the oils is something i would try though .


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Get a mill for your saw ,you will run out fast ,i can burn through 5 gallons a day milling sometimes .Good way to make lumber for a nice fence for your place .
> 
> Not sure cocktailing the oils is something i would try though .


Yeah, you are right .............. I will do as I allways have.......... mixing one tank-full at a time, best to keep VP in its tight can until ready for use.


----------



## porsche965

Cocktails. That's a new one lol.

How many have tried that?


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> Cocktails. That's a new one lol.
> 
> How many have tried that?


Only with paints ,to match colors ,little of this little of that till it looks right .


----------



## porsche965

Would there be any advantage to "blending" two oils together?


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Would there be any advantage to "blending" two oils together?


Maybe Amsoil and Stihl Ultra?


----------



## blsnelling

I would definitely shy away from that idea. Different base oils, different additive package, etc, etc. An oil is a calculated blend of materials. Not all components are compatible. I can't see mixing two totally different oils as a good idea. I would find this especially so for oils from different companies. Use one oil until it's gone, then switch.


----------



## porsche965

Reminds me of medicines. Each has it's own molecular structure and yet we mix them in our bodies per the advice of Dr.s. And those in dire straights get good results by following the prescribed dosages. 

Chainsaws are way different than our bodies but in theory could be classified as the same "host" in a blended concoction. 

Example: Johnny Walker Blue is my preferred Scotch, BLENDED by a Master Blender to be one of the finest elixir in the Cocktail World. 

Back to oils. Red Bull, this would be a great question to your friend at BelRay! He may not sleep for days thinking H1R may be mixed with say...YamalubeR2? lol.


----------



## porsche965

What IF someone on AS would come up with the "perfect" oil blend. Best combustion. Most cleaning attributes. Best bearing protection. MOST HP! Now wouldn't that just be something if we could beat the engineers at their own game through experience? 

Just thinking out loud. But don't mind me


----------



## porsche965

One more on this thought. 

Who knows chainsaws more than Andre? Than MM? Than Brad? Than Michael Lee? Than many others here that live breathe and use chainsaws everyday? When was the last time an Oil Manufacturer came on here or to any of us and asked our opinions? Who takes chainsaws more seriously than us and our passion/hobby?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Nobody asked you .............
> 
> I bet you think that gunpowder changes into a gaseous state before it ignites as well, eh ???


Yes, in fact it does, which is why magnum primers are always a good idea in cold weather and especially so with ball powders with heavy deterent coatings.
So does coal when burnt in a furnace...THIS SCIENCE STUFF IS AMAZING!


----------



## Trx250r180

How many oil companies have a break in 2 stroke oil available ? I have only seen one advertise this so far .


----------



## nitehawk55

This oil thread should be posted on bob is the oil guy forum (bitog) . The OCD is strong there with guys worried about oil type , filters , OCI's...etc.

Me , I'll just keep using Amsoil Saber at 50:1 with ethanol free Shell V-max and call it a day . 

BTW , the fuel mixture atomizes when it goes through the carb venturi of a running saw . Before that mostly raw fuel is drawn by use of the choke or a primer for starting .


----------



## bikemike

cuttinties said:


> We're talking about pump gas as diesel chainsaws aren't exactly common.


I want a diesel chainsaw may run all day on a pint of fuel. But i would want the turbo diesel model


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I would definitely shy away from that idea. Different base oils, different additive package, etc, etc. An oil is a calculated blend of materials. Not all components are compatible. I can't see mixing two totally different oils as a good idea. I would find this especially so for oils from different companies. Use one oil until it's gone, then switch.


This!


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> This oil thread should be posted on bob is the oil guy forum (bitog) . The OCD is strong there with guys worried about oil type , filters , OCI's...etc.
> 
> Me , I'll just keep using Amsoil Saber at 50:1 with ethanol free Shell V-max and call it a day .
> 
> BTW , the fuel mixture atomizes when it goes through the carb venturi of a running saw . Before that mostly raw fuel is drawn by use of the choke or a primer for starting .


Atomized isn't vaporised. The reason fuel is atomized in a carb is so that it vaporises easier.. which it must do in order to combust.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> How many oil companies have a break in 2 stroke oil available ? I have only seen one advertise this so far .


I have never seen one. Two strokes don't really require breaking because they have roller or ball bearings. The rings do need to be seated by loading the engine properly IE don't baby the thing.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> One more on this thought.
> 
> Who knows chainsaws more than Andre? Than MM? Than Brad? Than Michael Lee? Than many others here that live breathe and use chainsaws everyday? When was the last time an Oil Manufacturer came on here or to any of us and asked our opinions? Who takes chainsaws more seriously than us and our passion/hobby?


Why would they do that given the level of knowledge on the subject the members here have. Most, but not all of the people commenting in this thread have no idea what good oil performance is.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Reminds me of medicines. Each has it's own molecular structure and yet we mix them in our bodies per the advice of Dr.s. And those in dire straights get good results by following the prescribed dosages.
> 
> Chainsaws are way different than our bodies but in theory could be classified as the same "host" in a blended concoction.
> 
> Example: Johnny Walker Blue is my preferred Scotch, BLENDED by a Master Blender to be one of the finest elixir in the Cocktail World.
> 
> Back to oils. Red Bull, this would be a great question to your friend at BelRay! He may not sleep for days thinking H1R may be mixed with say...YamalubeR2? lol.


On the other hand mixing anything with H1R would be an improvement..


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have never seen one. Two strokes don't really require breaking because they have roller or ball bearings. The rings do need to be seated by loading the engine properly IE don't baby the thing.




Seems like my saws wake up some after about 20 tanks once the bearings start to loosen up ,I wonder if this stuff would speed this process up ? May be a gimmick ,who knows ,i do like the reg mix so far though .


http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/two-stroke-break-in-storage-oil/


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Seems like my saws wake up some after about 20 tanks once the bearings start to loosen up ,I wonder if this stuff would speed this process up ? May be a gimmick ,who knows ,i do like the reg mix so far though .
> 
> 
> http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/two-stroke-break-in-storage-oil/


I checked out their website the other day after you mentioned using it. Pretty scant on information other than some all sizzle no steak marketing. Kinda pegged my BS meter.
However, I can't say for certain if this companies products are any good.


----------



## nitehawk55

Vaporised is when you stand too close to an A bomb . 
Too much over thinking going on here .


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> why the hell would you make a blanket statement like this? This actually really stupid of you. Your going to give some amateur here a bad idea and they are going to have a kaboom and hurt themselves.
> 
> I've heard of re loaders doing it. The manufacturers I've tested for would never do this. One of them sends ammo all over the world and is renowned for their dangerous game ammo.
> 
> A load like this would be extremely specific to the user's particular gun. There are better ways of doing this anyway.
> 
> And most times problems with ignition or light primer strikes in the cold are due to mechanical issues.


Its not a blanket statement at all and certain manufacturers reccomend magnum primers with their powders due to the reasons I outlined. Looked in a reloading manual, ever?
Another subject in which you don't have a clue. Seeing a pattern here..
And dangerous game ammo most certainly does have magnum primers because dangerous game cartridges are..well magnums. That said magnum primers work very well in certain standard cartridges with certain powders. This isn't secret info as it in many published works. If I'm hunting in below freezing temps or using ball powders a magnum primer is used..and I not alone on this..


----------



## bikemike

Gas n oil. The final frontier. They go were no man has gone before. The journey from tanks to the turbulent voyage of ports, just to be burnt the phuck up trying to make it were all man kind survive. This is the repeated attempt that all fumes and goos try to get through. Some may make it. Much of it wont. 

Stay tuned for the next episode of 50:1 mix on ur naked lady machine. Until then tune em right work em hard and keep ur chains sharp


----------



## PhilMcWoody

porsche965 said:


> Reminds me of medicines. Each has it's own molecular structure and yet we mix them in our bodies per the advice of Dr.s. And those in dire straights get good results by following the prescribed dosages.
> 
> Chainsaws are way different than our bodies but in theory could be classified as the same "host" in a blended concoction.
> 
> Example: *Johnny Walker Blue is my preferred Scotch*, BLENDED by a Master Blender to be one of the finest elixir in the Cocktail World.
> 
> Back to oils. Red Bull, this would be a great question to your friend at BelRay! He may not sleep for days thinking H1R may be mixed with say...YamalubeR2? lol.



I'd put Talisker 10 year old in my saw and be done -- it's gonna ignite for sure, it's smooth, it's kinda oily — tastes like swimming behind and oil tanker — peaty, definitely not synthetic; almost bet it would work as well as 50:1, and no messing around with blending.

https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/P-4837.aspx

Not sure the saw could take it without seizing up somewhere along the line, though.


----------



## SCHallenger

KenJax Tree said:


> I've used VP T4 with good results, they also have T2 which is premixed 40:1. I would assume it has Motul oil in it like SEF.



I talked to Vp 2 days ago. They stated that they DID NOT use Motul in any of their fuels.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> that's exactly what it is and your an careless reckless irresponsible idiot for saying it here. PERIOD.


CCI says I'm right..

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=29


----------



## KenJax Tree

SCHallenger said:


> I talked to Vp 2 days ago. They stated that they DID NOT use Motul in any of their fuels.


Maybe they changed oils? Its been a while, It used to say under the FAQ they used Motul.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I didn't say it couldn't be done. Has nothing to do with if you're right.
> 
> I said it was reckless and a bunch of other things to put it out there as a blanket statement. Which you did.
> 
> It's not a general practice at all. It's not generally accepted. It's dangerous if you don't know what your doing.
> 
> For example given in a winter situation...or any situation, I would never use large magnums in 9x25 dillon, 10mm , 45acp 45 super, 460 rowland, 40 super
> 
> on a different note - you are sooo concerned about being Right all the time. Seriously clouds your objectivity.





redbull660 said:


> I didn't say it couldn't be done. Has nothing to do with if you're right.
> 
> I said it was reckless and a bunch of other things to put it out there as a blanket statement. Which you did.
> 
> It's not a general practice at all. It's not generally accepted. It's dangerous if you don't know what your doing.
> 
> For example given in a winter situation...or any situation, I would never use large magnums in 9x25 dillon, 10mm , 45acp 45 super, 460 rowland, 40 super
> 
> on a different note - you are sooo concerned about being Right all the time. Seriously clouds your objectivity.


It is very commonly done and can be done safely. Anyone who reloads knows that when components are changed you reduce your powder charges and work back up. Just about everything is dangerous if you don't know what your doing..
Are you aware that certain standard primers are.stronger than magnum primers? For instance a Winchester WLR is hotter than a Remington 91/2M based on the last primer test I saw.
You should be more concerned about being right and half this thread wouldn't exist..


----------



## Marshy

What's the next oil discussion that's going to take this thread into page 150? I thought it would be the oil cocktail idea but that was shot down quickly. 

I think there needs to be a test with the Yama-lube stuff. Sounds like MM was impressed with it.


----------



## nitehawk55

This was a post on bitog about Yamalube.......

Yamalube is made by CITGO (cities services oil company).. The packaging facility is on 39th and cicero in Chicago ( a few miles from my home)....2nd,,, Yamalube comes from the EXACT SAME ZILLION GALLON TANK AS DOES at least a DOXEN other brands of 2 stroke oil.... 3rd.. Yamaha does NOT have an oil refining or packaging company , 4th Yamaha buys their oil from the LOWEST BIDDER... They come up with a specification such as TC-W or JASO and the oil MANUFACTURING companies meet their specifications and submit their bids to YAMAHA.... YAMAHA in turn, contracts the LOWEST BIDDER in the demographic area that they market the oil in.... If you live anywhere near CHICAGO,,,The YAMALUBE comes from a zillion gallon VAT on 39th and cicero..... You could buy K mart or wal mart or farm and fleet 2 stroke oil and get the EXACT SAME OIL that is in the Yamalube bottle for HALF THE PRICE... Yamaha doesn't open up the caps and THROW ANY MAGIC POWDER in the gallons of oil when they come from citgo.... Sometimes they come directly from citgo and the yamaha warehouse NEVER EVEN SEE the cases!!!!! I know first hand because a friend of mine who WORKED for CITGO for 25 years used to bring me botles of TEXACO 2 stroke oil..... YES TEXACO 2 stroke oil and you know what???? He got it from CITGO where he worked!!!!!! and furthermore, citgo doesn't open up the bottles and throw the MAJUC POWDER FROM THE YAMAHA CHEMICAL PLANT to make YAMALUBE work better...... Heres another little TIDBIT for you guys,,,,,, The next time you go to pep boys or auto zone or murrays aoto,,, look and see just how many different kinds of ANTI FREEZE there are...... ARE YOU READY FOR THIS ONE???????????? THERE'S ONLY 2 COMPANIES IN AMERICA THAT MAKE ETHYLENE GLYCOL ANTI FREEZE.......... 20 brands,,,,,,,20 COMPANIES!!!!! BOTTOM LINE,,, MY VIPERS (2) and my sxr all use KLOTZ,,, My power valves are clean... My girlfriend has a viper,, her powervalves ALWAYS DIRTY!!!!!1 she drives my sled,,,, DIRTY POWERVALVES.... SHE drives a snowmobile like a FARM TRACTOR.. I drive a sled like I stole it!!!!! With MY SLEDS,,,,,, It's not about the oil!!!!!!! I use KLOTZ!!!! FAR superior to ANYTHING CITGO MAKES!!!!! there you have it!!!!"

You have to LOL at the seriousness of the post , I like the magic powder comment .
This is common on bitog , this thread on AS is not far behind .
I do agree that many brands of oil come from one supplier and not likely much difference except the packaging .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> This was a post on bitog about Yamalube.......
> 
> Yamalube is made by CITGO (cities services oil company).. The packaging facility is on 39th and cicero in Chicago ( a few miles from my home)....2nd,,, Yamalube comes from the EXACT SAME ZILLION GALLON TANK AS DOES at least a DOXEN other brands of 2 stroke oil.... 3rd.. Yamaha does NOT have an oil refining or packaging company , 4th Yamaha buys their oil from the LOWEST BIDDER... They come up with a specification such as TC-W or JASO and the oil MANUFACTURING companies meet their specifications and submit their bids to YAMAHA.... YAMAHA in turn, contracts the LOWEST BIDDER in the demographic area that they market the oil in.... If you live anywhere near CHICAGO,,,The YAMALUBE comes from a zillion gallon VAT on 39th and cicero..... You could buy K mart or wal mart or farm and fleet 2 stroke oil and get the EXACT SAME OIL that is in the Yamalube bottle for HALF THE PRICE... Yamaha doesn't open up the caps and THROW ANY MAGIC POWDER in the gallons of oil when they come from citgo.... Sometimes they come directly from citgo and the yamaha warehouse NEVER EVEN SEE the cases!!!!! I know first hand because a friend of mine who WORKED for CITGO for 25 years used to bring me botles of TEXACO 2 stroke oil..... YES TEXACO 2 stroke oil and you know what???? He got it from CITGO where he worked!!!!!! and furthermore, citgo doesn't open up the bottles and throw the MAJUC POWDER FROM THE YAMAHA CHEMICAL PLANT to make YAMALUBE work better...... Heres another little TIDBIT for you guys,,,,,, The next time you go to pep boys or auto zone or murrays aoto,,, look and see just how many different kinds of ANTI FREEZE there are...... ARE YOU READY FOR THIS ONE???????????? THERE'S ONLY 2 COMPANIES IN AMERICA THAT MAKE ETHYLENE GLYCOL ANTI FREEZE.......... 20 brands,,,,,,,20 COMPANIES!!!!! BOTTOM LINE,,, MY VIPERS (2) and my sxr all use KLOTZ,,, My power valves are clean... My girlfriend has a viper,, her powervalves ALWAYS DIRTY!!!!!1 she drives my sled,,,, DIRTY POWERVALVES.... SHE drives a snowmobile like a FARM TRACTOR.. I drive a sled like I stole it!!!!! With MY SLEDS,,,,,, It's not about the oil!!!!!!! I use KLOTZ!!!! FAR superior to ANYTHING CITGO MAKES!!!!! there you have it!!!!"


Hate to break it to you, but Yamalube isn't made by citgo. It's blended by Spectrum.
It's also superior to anything Klotz blends...and by a long shot. And that post was made by a complete moron..as 2R wasn't produced in Chicago. IIRC it was made in OK.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> lol whatever man
> 
> your response is so "telling" sheesh.


Yes, it is. Telling that yet again you don't know what the hell you are talking about....


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Atomized isn't vaporised. .


At least you are on the right track


bwalker said:


> The reason fuel is atomized in a carb is so that it vaporises easier.. which it must do in order to combust.


Way off track !!!!!
Lets see .......... so "How stuff works" and "Explain that" are wrong too ?     
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm
http://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-carburetors-work.html


----------



## Pud

Does anyone else just use chainsaw oil ?


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> What's the next oil discussion that's going to take this thread into page 150? I thought it would be the oil cocktail idea but that was shot down quickly.
> 
> I think there needs to be a test with the Yama-lube stuff. Sounds like MM was impressed with it.


Hey .......... maybe we alter it a little ?

I have about 6 oz of R50 with VP and I have 6oz of 800 off road with VP, _each in their own fuel can @ 32:1_.

Is there anything wrong with putting the two 6 oz mixes together into my chainsaw fuel tank, that holds 16 oz, (so I have 12 oz or a 75% full tank) to cut with ?


----------



## redbull660

I will be going to the GTG


So, T-minus 24hrs to the stock 661 vs ported 661 show down !!!!!!!!!!

should be interesting


bought a 100' roll of 3/8ths RS and a roll of .404 RS hopefully it shows up today as promised.

If so we can do some vids of various saws against various saws. ( Bringing all my bars. )


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> At least you are on the right track
> 
> Way off track !!!!!
> Lets see .......... so "How stuff works" and "Explain that" are wrong too ?
> http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm
> http://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-carburetors-work.html


I would challenge you to point out were I am off track... hint..I'm not.


----------



## blsnelling

Lol


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I would challenge you to point out were I am off track....


Well Capt Obvious, I have already pointed it out several times and provided links for your reading enjoyment.
I have enjoyed your little game, but wont be playing anymore.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Well Capt Obvious, I have already pointed it out several times and provided links for your reading enjoyment.
> I have enjoyed your little game, but wont be playing anymore.


What you have pointed out was a bunch of garbage that is factually not true. GOOD! This board doesn't need any more hair brained theories that are false.


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> Hey .......... maybe we alter it a little ?
> 
> I have about 6 oz of R50 with VP and I have 6oz of 800 off road with VP, _each in their own fuel can @ 32:1_.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with putting the two 6 oz mixes together into my chainsaw fuel tank, that holds 16 oz, (so I have 12 oz or a 75% full tank) to cut with ?


 
I'd try it. I highly doubt it would have an adverse effect.


----------



## blsnelling

Why mix? What's to be gained? I don't think we're going to outsmart the chemist that designed the oil.


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> Why mix? What's to be gained? I don't think we're going to outsmart the chemist that designed the oil.


Its just left over mixed fuel, from 2 different containers. You wouldn't add them both to one saw and go cutting ?
Would you only add one, then run it out, then add the other ?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Why mix? What's to be gained? I don't think we're going to outsmart the chemist that designed the oil.


That's my opinion as well.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Hate to break it to you, but Yamalube isn't made by citgo. It's blended by Spectrum.
> It's also superior to anything Klotz blends...and by a long shot. And that post was made by a complete moron..as 2R wasn't produced in Chicago. IIRC it was made in OK.


It was made by Citgo, it is now made by Spectrum. Has the formula changed? It is very likely.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It was made by Citgo, it is now made by Spectrum. Has the formula changed? It is very likely.


I haven't noticed any change in years..smell, specs etc. The fact is its a very good oil regardless of who makes it.
I know Citgo produced it till maybe the last few years(IIRC in OK). In the past Chevron made it. It's always been a good oil.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Its not a blanket statement at all and certain manufacturers reccomend magnum primers with their powders due to the reasons I outlined. Looked in a reloading manual, ever?
> Another subject in which you don't have a clue. Seeing a pattern here..
> And dangerous game ammo most certainly does have magnum primers because dangerous game cartridges are..well magnums. That said magnum primers work very well in certain standard cartridges with certain powders. This isn't secret info as it in many published works. If I'm hunting in below freezing temps or using ball powders a magnum primer is used..and I not alone on this..


 My handloading buddy uses magnum primers in his "non-magnum" 25-06. After exhausting several powders and charges he tried a magnum primer and accuracy improved tremendous with no pressure issues.


----------



## MustangMike

Pretty hostile comments U made previously, if U did really know that! The auditor in me is detecting things that don't add up.


----------



## MustangMike

Ron, you always have to be careful using Magnum primers in place of standard, as they will generally increase pressure. That said, cartridges with the capacity of the 06 are on the border, and I use Magnum primers in my 06 load. I have also seen them recommended for some powders in the 220 Swift.

The old Winchester Large Rifle primers he refers to (120s) used to be my favorite for all of my reloads (30-30 - 300 Win Mag). They were in between power of a standard & Magnum primer, and worked very well with just about everything. It is a shame they were discontinued, but they have not been available for years. I had a lot of loads developed with that primer that I have since had to modify.

Also keep in mind that the power of the primer varies between brands, for example the Federal 215s are generally hotter than other Magnum primers. If you are working with Max loads and don't keep this in mind, you may have problems.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> My handloading buddy uses magnum primers in his "non-magnum" 25-06. After exhausting several powders and charges he tried a magnum primer and accuracy improved tremendous with no pressure issues.


That's not uncommon at all.


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Pretty hostile comments U made previously, if U did really know that! The auditor in me is detecting things that don't add up.


What might you be referring to?


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Ron, you always have to be careful using Magnum primers in place of standard, as they will generally increase pressure. That said, cartridges with the capacity of the 06 are on the border, and I use Magnum primers in my 06 load. I have also seen them recommended for some powders in the 220 Swift.
> 
> The old Winchester Large Rifle primers he refers to (120s) used to be my favorite for all of my reloads (30-30 - 300 Win Mag). They were in between power of a standard & Magnum primer, and worked very well with just about everything. It is a shame they were discontinued, but they have not been available for years. I had a lot of loads developed with that primer that I have since had to modify.
> 
> Also keep in mind that the power of the primer varies between brands, for example the Federal 215s are generally hotter than other Magnum primers. If you are working with Max loads and don't keep this in mind, you may have problems.


Some times pressures don't increase at all when going from a standard to a magnum, sometimes they do by a small amount. It goes without saying that loads should always be worked up to.
The new WLR Primers are very hot. In fact they are stronger than certain magnums in my expiereance.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I didn't say mag primers weren't used in dangerous game cartridges. God you twist words on purpose or your dyslexic...one of the two. Maybe you were capt. of the debate team in hs. That is the one thing I think your an expert in is redirect and manipulation of what was actually stated and or meant.
> 
> I didn't stay it couldn't be done. I said you made a foolish blanket statement. Which you did.
> 
> as for should it be done? I don't care what you do with your reloads. But it isn't common practice. And just because it's cold doesn't mean you should switch to mag primers like you eluded to.


Its very.commonly done, can be done with all cartridges including the 45acp you mentioned and CCI reccomends magnums for the cold and ball powders just like I mentioned...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> and you have the pressure test barrels to measure this? do you have any idea how much that equip costs? omg lmao
> 
> just for kicks walker ...what calibers are you shooting? ...doing this with?


Yes, I have access to pressure trace equipment from Oehler
I shoot 9mm, 45acp, 45LC, 243 win, 25-06 AI, 270 win, 280 rem, 7mm rem mag,300 win mag,300 ultra mag, 32 special, 45-70, and 375 H&H.


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Its just left over mixed fuel, from 2 different containers. You wouldn't add them both to one saw and go cutting ?
> Would you only add one, then run it out, then add the other ?



I would not do that . Some oils do not mix together well . Whenever changing brands ,dump whatever is in the tank first before fillup .


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> Ron, you always have to be careful using Magnum primers in place of standard, as they will generally increase pressure. That said, cartridges with the capacity of the 06 are on the border, and I use Magnum primers in my 06 load. I have also seen them recommended for some powders in the 220 Swift.
> 
> The old Winchester Large Rifle primers he refers to (120s) used to be my favorite for all of my reloads (30-30 - 300 Win Mag). They were in between power of a standard & Magnum primer, and worked very well with just about everything. It is a shame they were discontinued, but they have not been available for years. I had a lot of loads developed with that primer that I have since had to modify.
> 
> Also keep in mind that the power of the primer varies between brands, for example the Federal 215s are generally hotter than other Magnum primers. If you are working with Max loads and don't keep this in mind, you may have problems.


 I've had blown primers in my 7STW on hot days...lowered the charge 0.5 - 1.0 but the accuracy went down slightly. My Kreiger barrrel likes HOT loads.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I would not do that . Some oils do not mix together well . Whenever changing brands ,dump whatever is in the tank first before fillup .


Do you have any specific thoughts on which ones ............... just thoughts or what you had heard ?

Also,
did you catch that VP is not using any Motul in their SEF fuels ?
Maybe it is Lucas in their 50:1 after all ???????


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> pressure test equip - sure ya do. bet ya have a test barrel for all those calibers to. lol
> 
> I asked... ah fck this. waste of time and off subject.


The pressure transducers attach to the outside of the barrel. So you don't need a test barrel for personal use.
The sytem.is a Oehler 43 and it cost about 1300 bucks ten years ago when friend purchased it.
However, to be honest I seldom bother with it any more as velocity is an.indication of pressure and you can certainly use a chronograph like a oehler 35p to determine safe loads.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I've had blown primers in my 7STW on hot days...lowered the charge 0.5 - 1.0 but the accuracy went down slightly. My Kreiger barrrel likes HOT loads.


No warts in a Krieger. Haven on on my 25-06 Ackley Improved.
However, lately I have been using Rock Creek cut rifled tunes as they will contour them much smaller than Krieger. I like to hunt elk and weight matters in the mountains.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> pressure test equip - sure ya do. bet ya have a test barrel for all those calibers to. lol
> 
> I asked... ah fck this. waste of time and off subject.


Its a waste of time for you because you like the expiereance and knowledge..just like you do with chainsaws..


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I've had blown primers in my 7STW on hot days...lowered the charge 0.5 - 1.0 but the accuracy went down slightly. My Kreiger barrrel likes HOT loads.


I also try to use jnly Hodgson extreme, temp insensitive powders. Retumbo would be good in the STW.


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Do you have any specific thoughts on which ones ............... just thoughts or what you had heard ?
> 
> Also,
> did you catch that VP is not using any Motul in their SEF fuels ?
> Maybe it is Lucas in their 50:1 after all ???????





Moparmyway said:


> Do you have any specific thoughts on which ones ............... just thoughts or what you had heard ?
> 
> Also,
> did you catch that VP is not using any Motul in their SEF fuels ?
> Maybe it is Lucas in their 50:1 after all ???????


I know esters and castors not supposed to mix ,so 927 and h1r is a no no ,most labels are not marked clear enough on what they are made of ,like semi synthetic ,What is the semi part ? Synthetic what ?I am sure some will mix fine ,but why take the chance ?


----------



## MustangMike

As I previously stated, the old Winchester LR primers (120s) were in between a standard and magnum and were good for about everything. Now they have a standard LR primer, which is not as hot and a Magnum primer, which is hotter.

Using the Magnum primer in my old loads often results in too much pressure, and using the standard primers often results in lower velocities and less accuracy.

I do miss those old 120 primers, and my one Hornady Reloading Manual said it was the best primer they found for loads in the 300 Win Mag.

I had developed a lot of great shooting loads in several calibers based on that primer, and it really upset me when they discontinued it.


----------



## maulhead

redbull660 said:


> I will be going to the GTG
> 
> 
> So, T-minus 24hrs to the stock 661 vs ported 661 show down !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> should be interesting
> 
> 
> bought a 100' roll of 3/8ths RS and a roll of .404 RS hopefully it shows up today as promised.
> 
> If so we can do some vids of various saws against various saws. ( Bringing all my bars. )



I'm glad you decided to come for the showdown,, 

I'm thinking I will need to change my avatar, when I return from Iowa


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I also try to use jnly Hodgson extreme, temp insensitive powders. Retumbo would be good in the STW.


 7828 but trying H-1000 & Retumbo now in the STW also in my other Krieger barreled (#8 contour w/ 1:8.5 twist) 264 Mag.


----------



## cuttinties

Ammunition thread now?


----------



## redfin

cuttinties said:


> Ammunition thread now?



Why not? Seems as though so many others turn into an oil thread.


----------



## Ron660

maulhead said:


> I'm glad you decided to come for the showdown,,
> 
> I'm thinking I will need to change my avatar, when I return from Iowa
> 
> View attachment 420883


 Looks like an experiment with Testosterone


----------



## Ron660

redfin said:


> Why not? Seems as though so many others turn into an oil thread.


 
Knife thread


----------



## redfin

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 420887
> 
> 
> Knife thread



Dats a knice knife.


----------



## bikemike

Pud said:


> Does anyone else just use chainsaw oil ?


Yes echo bar oil mixed at 32.1 burns great and rust proofs ur exhaust


----------



## bikemike

redbull660 said:


> I will be going to the GTG
> 
> 
> So, T-minus 24hrs to the stock 661 vs ported 661 show down !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> should be interesting
> 
> 
> bought a 100' roll of 3/8ths RS and a roll of .404 RS hopefully it shows up today as promised.
> 
> If so we can do some vids of various saws against various saws. ( Bringing all my bars. )


That sounds alright. Can you video it for us so we can se how slow a ported saw is with more oil. Thankyou looking forward to that vid


----------



## redbull660

ok some of you wanted to see how much the tune changed going from 45:1 H1R to 32:1 on the 660. 

Saw already had 45:1 in it so that is what I started with.... 




Then dumped out all the gas and refilled with 32:1 H1R. Started it, let it run for a bit, then did some wot revs then filled tank back up and did this vid.

So adjustment was quite a bit less than I thought. Like I said earlier it wasn't something I really paid attention to because it wasn't a lot and jump out at me like the 361 did.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm surprised to see it actually pick up 400-500 RPMs. Pretty cool. It definitely leans out the tune.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> I'm surprised to see it actually pick up 400-500 RPMs. Pretty cool. It definitely leans out the tune.



I'd expect just about any oil would lean it up that much going from 45:1 down to 32:1. Maybe not. 

45:1 rpm high 13,300
32:1 rpm high 13,700


But to answer the original question - the H changed ..*not very much! *

other thoughts - 

The 660 was very receptive to going to 32:1. While the 361 and 661 were not. Why I don't know. 

That said, IMO the 660 liked 40:1 the best though. (out of 45:1 40:1 32:1)


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I'd expect just about any oil would lean it up that much going from 45:1 down to 32:1. Maybe not.
> 
> 45:1 rpm high 13,300
> 32:1 rpm high 13,700
> 
> 
> But to answer the original question - the H changed ..*not very much! *
> 
> other thoughts -
> 
> The 660 was very receptive to going to 32:1. While the 361 and 661 were not. Why I don't know.
> 
> That said, IMO the 660 liked 40:1 the best though. (out of 45:1 40:1 32:1)


I am not shocked with that oil..


----------



## MustangMike

Nice knife Ron, what kind is it???

Your gonna make me dig into my cabinet and find my Colt Folding Pocket Knife, but U never saw one! The handle splits like a clamshell.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I haven't noticed any change in years..smell, specs etc. The fact is its a very good oil regardless of who makes it.
> I know Citgo produced it till maybe the last few years(IIRC in OK). In the past Chevron made it. It's always been a good oil.


I agree, it's one of the few oils i've always recommend, especially in stock saws. 

I know you dissigre, but for all out protection R50 is the bee's knees, K2 is second on that list. Never cared for H1R.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm gonna bow out of this thread. 

Y'all have fun.


----------



## Marshy

You'll be back Randy, especially when the stock saw beats the ported saw.


----------



## Moparmyway

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna bow out of this thread.
> 
> Y'all have fun.


WOW ..............
I thought you were already out after page 23 or somewhere round there ????????????


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> I agree, it's one of the few oils i've always recommend, especially in stock saws.
> 
> I know you dissigre, but for all out protection R50 is the bee's knees, K2 is second on that list. Never cared for H1R.


So, what order would you rate them for all out protection ?
Just your particular preference .............

R50, 800 off road, K2, R2, H1R(I don't like it so much either), Lucas ............ and any other ones I missed ?


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> Nice knife Ron, what kind is it???
> 
> Your gonna make me dig into my cabinet and find my Colt Folding Pocket Knife, but U never saw one! The handle splits like a clamshell.


 Randall #3


----------



## redbull660

bikemike said:


> That sounds alright. Can you video it for us so we can se how slow a ported saw is with more oil. Thankyou looking forward to that vid



Going to be over 30+ people there to witness it. No one can say I fudged anything!

We are even buying gas there, tomorrow morning, same pump, etc etc blah blah blah

of course I'll video it. 

I think he'll lose or it'll be very close at 32:1.

I think we'll then try 36:1 11% less oil so more on par with the rest of the oils out there with their solvents , which make up 5-20+% of the bottle.

See how that goes and maybe 40:1. I don't think past 40:1 is a good idea.

I think at 36:1 will be perfect for H1R and that is where the saw won't be bogged down any longer and then the ported saw will totally kick my muff modded's saw's azz. I think H1R is to pure by volume and I think you guys using it at 32:1 = using to much oil. 

That's what I think. Could be totally wrong...and I don't care. We shall see.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> Going to be over 30+ people there to witness it. No one can say I fudged anything!
> 
> We are even buying gas there, tomorrow morning, same pump, etc etc blah blah blah


I suggest you do the reset procedure with this new gas you are going to be running


----------



## Andyshine77

Moparmyway said:


> So, what order would you rate them for all out protection ?
> Just your particular preference .............
> 
> R50, 800 off road, K2, H1R, Lucas ............ and any other ones I missed ?


I'm sure some of the caster oils will have advantages in the most extreme conditions, but that's not really going to happen in as saw.

R50
Motul 800
Silkolene pro 2 sx
K2
H1R is fine, I just didn't care for the tuning oddities, and it's one of the most expensive oils out there.

Out of the thinner oils 

Yamalube 
Motul 710
Stihl ultra
Never ran any Lucas, I'm sure it's decent oil, but I can't get over how watery thin it is.


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> I would not do that . Some oils do not mix together well . Whenever changing brands ,dump whatever is in the tank first before fillup .


I live on the wild side and will fill up and top off with different mix. YMMV


----------



## gunnusmc03

MustangMike said:


> Nice knife Ron, what kind is it???
> 
> Your gonna make me dig into my cabinet and find my Colt Folding Pocket Knife, but U never saw one! The handle splits like a clamshell.


Looks like a Randall


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I think he'll lose or it'll be very close at 32:1.
> 
> I think at 36:1 will be perfect for H1R and that is where the saw won't be bogged down any longer and then the ported saw will totally kick my muff modded's saw's azz.


Do you seriously think going from 32:1 to 36:1 is going to make the ported saw go from losing to kicking your rear? Seriously? It's stuff like this that makes you totally lose credibility, IMHO. That just craziness.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm sure some of the caster oils will have advantages in the most extreme conditions, but that's not really going to happen in as saw.
> 
> R50
> Motul 800
> Silkolene pro 2 sx
> K2
> H1R is fine, I just didn't care for the tuning oddities, and it's one of the most expensive oils out there.
> 
> Out of the thinner oils
> 
> Yamalube
> Motul 710
> Stihl ultra
> Never ran any Lucas, I'm sure it's decent oil, but I can't get over how watery thin it is.


I don't like K2 due to the excessive smoke when cold. I often need to start up a cold saw in the garage, otherwise I might not care so much. On another note, I just stopped by the local motorcycle shop and picked up a bottle of Yamalube and Super-M. I then ordered a bottle of Motul 710 off eBay.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Brad i'm not getting the smoke from the Super M i got with K2.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Brad i'm not getting the smoke from the Super M i got with K2.


Excellent. I'm liking the sounds of that Motul 710 too. It has an ester base, but is a synthetic mix with a lower flashpoint. It might be the ultimate *** oil. Who knows!


----------



## blsnelling

So the ported 661 vs stock 661 shoot out is today? I didn't realize it was so soon.


----------



## porsche965

I wonder who will be the first to report the findings of the day? 

"Live coverage?"


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Excellent. I'm liking the sounds of that Motul 710 too. It has an ester base, but is a synthetic mix with a lower flashpoint. It might be the ultimate *** oil. Who knows!


Forget flashpoint! It doesn't tell you anything beyond shipping and storage precautions..
And I wouldn't get hung up on esters either.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm sure some of the caster oils will have advantages in the most extreme conditions, but that's not really going to happen in as saw.
> 
> R50
> Motul 800
> Silkolene pro 2 sx
> K2
> H1R is fine, I just didn't care for the tuning oddities, and it's one of the most expensive oils out there.
> 
> Out of the thinner oils
> 
> Yamalube
> Motul 710
> Stihl ultra
> Never ran any Lucas, I'm sure it's decent oil, but I can't get over how watery thin it is.


The first list may have some advantages in extreme conditions, but also some downsides when used in a saw.


----------



## Four Paws

porsche965 said:


> I wonder who will be the first to report the findings of the day?



I hope one of these jokers figures out what brand is best...Been running this as long as I can remember at 40:1 and am now down to my last few cans.


I need to make a decision on one of these fancy new synthetics before I run out.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Excellent. I'm liking the sounds of that Motul 710 too. It has an ester base, but is a synthetic mix with a lower flashpoint. It might be the ultimate *** oil. Who knows!


I am running K2 in my stock 562xp with no smoke. It does smell a little funny. I also have a sneaking suspicion based on a few things that it's less clean than 2R at more than double the price.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> The first list may have some advantages in extreme conditions, but also some downsides when used in a saw.


The advantages out weight the negatives IMHO.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I don't like K2 due to the excessive smoke when cold. I often need to start up a cold saw in the garage, otherwise I might not care so much. On another note, I just stopped by the local motorcycle shop and picked up a bottle of Yamalube and Super-M. I then ordered a bottle of Motul 710 off eBay.


I get little to no smoke from k2.


----------



## Four Paws

Andyshine77 said:


> I get little to no smoke from k2.



Whaaaaat?







I heard that $hit make you cray!?


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> The advantages out weight the negatives IMHO.


Not IMHO. It's really the same argument you used against castor. What good is capability if you never use it and if it comes with down sides?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Not IMHO. It's really the same argument you used against castor. What good is capability if you never use it and if it comes with down sides?


So far I haven't seen a downside in my saws. No rust, excessive buildup or anything else.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> So far I haven't seen a downside in my saws. No rust, excessive buildup or anything else.


Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


----------



## porsche965

After all this reading IS there a PERFECT chainsaw oil? 

Does a ported saw require a different mix than a stock saw? What then, are the two mixes for stock and ported?

I envy the simple minds out there that get by with "just OK" two cycle oils that work. My mind don't work that way unfortunately . 

And the thought that goes with that is that they still heat their homes in the dead of winter without being "perfect" in their mixes. Makes me feel like a mess. These damn oil threads lol.


----------



## porsche965

WHAT will this weekend GTG tell us? 

And what it does will it really make any difference in how we do things now?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i run lucas at 32:1 
<-


----------



## Metals406

Four Paws said:


> I hope one of these jokers figures out what brand is best...Been running this as long as I can remember at 40:1 and am now down to my last few cans.View attachment 420968
> 
> 
> I need to make a decision on one of these fancy new synthetics before I run out.


Josh, just use Rapeseed oil.

All the cool guys are doing it.


----------



## Mastermind

porsche965 said:


> WHAT will this weekend GTG tell us?
> 
> And what it does will it really make any difference in how we do things now?



Matt's saw won......but not by much. The witnesses are thinking that H1R might be too thick for the M/T saws @ 32:1. 

It is some damn thick oil.........


----------



## porsche965

Mastermind said:


> Matt's saw won......but not by much. The witnesses are thinking that H1R might be too thick for the M/T saws @ 32:1.
> 
> It is some damn thick oil.........



Thanks MM


----------



## KG441c

What did redbull run? 42to1?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

bel ray is 50 weight along with R50 standard premix oil is 20 weight.


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> What did redbull run? 42to1?



I don't have any details. 

If anyone is wondering why I bowed out of this thread the other day........

I just hated the way some folks were treating each other. We can do better. 

This testing of RedBull's has been a real eye opener. I was convinced he was wacked out when he announced his results. But it appears that I was wrong.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

maybe the bel ray was causing autotune problems in the husky saws you ported?


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I don't have any details.
> 
> If anyone is wondering why I bowed out of this thread the other day........
> 
> I just hated the way some folks were treating each other. We can do better.
> 
> This testing of RedBull's has been a real eye opener. I was convinced he was wacked out when he announced his results. But it appears that I was wrong.


Ya folks have a way of tearing each other apart around here? His test was an eye opener wasnt it? That yamalube , k2, lucas, and thinner oils should do well at 32to1


----------



## Mastermind

jakewells said:


> maybe the bel ray was causing autotune problems in the husky saws you ported?



Could be.......but they normally ran good till they got to 10 hours or so. And on a lot of different oils. The ones that I ported aren't the only ones that had the bog issues either.......


----------



## porsche965

This testing of RedBull's has been a real eye opener. I was convinced he was wacked out when he announced his results. But it appears that I was wrong.[/QUOTE]

Takes a real man to make a statement like this. I've had to do this a few times. I respect this statement.

....and yes, we are all better than some of the degrading posts. We'll said MM.
porsche.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Mastermind said:


> Could be.......but they normally ran good till they got to 10 hours or so. And on a lot of different oils. The ones that I ported aren't the only ones that had the bog issues either.......


ok then i guess that rules that out you willing to try 32:1 with some lucas? i have been using it since last september and it burns super clean and leaves everything oily inside.
and it pretty cheap. me and chris ( kendaxtree ) is hooked on it.


----------



## Mastermind

jakewells said:


> ok then i guess that rules that out you willing to try 32:1 with some lucas? i have been using it since last september and it burns super clean and leaves everything oily inside.
> and it pretty cheap. me and chris ( kendaxtree ) is hooked on it.



I'm gonna use the rest of this Yamalube.......then I'll try a few quarts of Lucas. From what Matt says, I'm pretty sure I'll like it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm using Maxima Super M right now, its a synthetic blend like Lucas but has 60% ester (K2?) and looks better on paper so we shall see[emoji6]


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> Excellent. I'm liking the sounds of that Motul 710 too. It has an ester base, but is a synthetic mix with a lower flashpoint. It might be the ultimate *** oil. Who knows!


Motul 710 has a similar viscosity as other "chainsaw" oils. That would be a good test between 710 and 800 at 32:1 and 40:1.


----------



## mdavlee

Oh no. The h1r has fallen. Stock is going down now. LMAO.

Interested to see the times. Thanks for testing Redbull and maulhead


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Matt's saw won......but not by much. The witnesses are thinking that H1R might be too thick for the M/T saws @ 32:1.
> 
> It is some damn thick oil.........


Its garbage..


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Its garbage..



Wouldn't call it garbage, but I sure don't care for it. More comparisons will be needed. No I'm not going to be the guy to step up an do it anytime soon.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Wouldn't call it garbage, but I sure don't care for it. More comparisons will be needed. No I'm not going to be the guy to step up an do it anytime soon.


I'm running K2 right now. I may try to make some vids tommorow at 32:1 and 50:1 to compare tomes with my stock 562xp


----------



## blsnelling

Did someone say oil? Here's what I have on hand, with a bottle of Motul 710 on the way.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Did someone say oil? Here's what I have on hand, with a bottle of Motul 710 on the way.


Rookie!!!


----------



## redbull660

Just got back. 1:30am. left at 3:30am yesterday lol . I haven't even checked the footage. I know it was close. I'll upload in the morning. I did cuts and Hedgerow did cuts. 2 diff logs.


Took some other vids of other guys running various ported saws. Did some other tests as well. Can't wait to look at the footage but im dead tired.


----------



## DexterDay

MS 460 FTW


----------



## Mastermind

DexterDay said:


> MS 460 FTW



I concur.


----------



## Mastermind

OK.......tell it. 

I wanna hear all about the GTG.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Just got back. 1:30am. left at 3:30am yesterday lol . I haven't even checked the footage. I know it was close. I'll upload in the morning. I did cuts and Hedgerow did cuts. 2 diff logs.
> 
> 
> Took some other vids of other guys running various ported saws. Did some other tests as well. Can't wait to look at the footage but im dead tired.


What exactly did you compare?


----------



## bwalker

I was just into the local dealer this morning and I inquired about Husky 390's eating bearings. He confirmed that they were in fact having bearing problems and that he reccomends running that saw at 32:1. Kinda made me chuckle as about ten years ago I told the same guy I ran all my two cycle *** at 32:1 and he thought I was crazy.
I also asked about the 562xp and he said he waited some time before ordering any because he had heard about problems. He also said that he has only had 1 issue with one and that it was an early saw purchased from another dealer. I must qualify that by saying a 60cc saw is kinda a bastard size up here for commercial use. Loggers start at the 372 and go up and the tree service guys run mostly 50cc saws paired with 70cc and up saws.


----------



## porsche965

Performance and Production is what makes me smile.

I'd rather run the risk of replacing a bearing than leaving HP on the table by running too much oil. But that's just me.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ive been runnin the dogballs out of my stock 241 other than a muffler mod with 32:1 and it runs just fine.

Am i doin it wrong ?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Performance and Production is what makes me smile.
> 
> I'd rather run the risk of replacing a bearing than leaving HP on the table by running too much oil. But that's just me.


I think your jumping to conclusions by assuming more oil reduces HP. It appears it does with H1R in Redbulls saws, but that oil sucks and has a history of altering combustion. Even so, I am very supprised how bad of an effect it has. Wasn't it 25% IIRC?
There is peer reviewed research out there that suggests the opposite. They also run very low oil ratios in sports where very small differences in HP mean alot.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Performance and Production is what makes me smile.
> 
> I'd rather run the risk of replacing a bearing than leaving HP on the table by running too much oil. But that's just me.


And when a bearing goes at full.load you will be replacing alot more than just the bearing..


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> And when a bearing goes at full.load you will be replacing alot more than just the bearing..



You are absolutely correct.

That surely would be the case!


----------



## porsche965

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Ive been runnin the dogballs out of my stock 241 other than a muffler mod with 32:1 and it runs just fine.
> 
> Am i doin it wrong ?



If your happy and it works for you who's to argue with that? 

I'm impressed with the 241c. Nice overpriced 40 cc saw. The 261 pretty much just sits now.


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Am i doin it wrong ?


Probably....but are you ever doing it right?


----------



## Steve NW WI

Mastermind said:


> OK.......tell it.
> 
> I wanna hear all about the GTG. [emoji23]


Dis was good when it was done.







Hedgerow's mdavlee 7900 "mutt" is a fast sob.

Plus bacon. Lots of bacon. Iowa is very bacon intensive. Should have tried a Wild Thing on 33.774:1 with bacon grease.


----------



## Mastermind

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Ive been runnin the dogballs out of my stock 241 other than a muffler mod with 32:1 and it runs just fine.
> 
> Am i doin it wrong ?



Nope. I'll continue to use 32:1 in everything. I think H1R is off the list now though. 



bwalker said:


> I think your jumping to conclusions by assuming more oil reduces HP. It appears it does with H1R in Redbulls saws, but that oil sucks and has a history of altering combustion. Even so, I am very supprised how bad of an effect it has. Wasn't it 25% IIRC?
> There is peer reviewed research out there that suggests the opposite. They also run very low oil ratios in sports where very small differences in HP mean alot.



I'm gonna jump in here and say that the H1R is just too thick......

I know when I wash it out of my measuring cup it takes several times to get it all out.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna jump in here and say that the H1R is just too thick......
> 
> I know when I wash it out of my measuring cup it takes several times to get it all out.


You should see Motul 800 2T Road Racing!!! It's far thicker yet!


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> You should see Motul 800 2T Road Racing!!! It's far thicker yet!


 Brad, I didn't see 800 off-road in your pic??


----------



## Mastermind

I'll be staying with 32:1........just on the hunt from that "perfect" oil again.


----------



## redbull660

vids done...

- Both saws first drained of oil and gas.
- same stihl bar oil
-same bar - maul and I both have tsumura 36's. Some debate on if use them both or just use one and switch over. Ended up using same bar and switching.
- air filter cleaned
- 1 new stihl RS chain for each saw.
- one small warm up cut in cotton wood prior to doing the 2 main cuts. Everyone involved was interested in making sure all the i's were dotted and t's crossed.


Muff modded 661 50:1 H1R went first. I was cutting.

log 1 - 22.4 sec , log 2 - 26.0 sec




bar switched to ported 661, new chain used

Ported 661 32:1 H1R - I was cutting

log 1 - 22.0 sec , log 2 - 26.0 sec




bar already on ported 661 so we decided to do back to back.

ported 661 32:1 H1R - Hedgerow cutting

log 1 - 21.4 sec , log 2 - 25.0 sec




bar switched to muff modded 661 50:1 H1R (switched back to other chain) - Hedgegrow cutting

log 1 - 22.4 sec , log 2 - 25.4 sec




Next,

*Switched the ported 661 from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R (performed reset)*

note - this cut was done *after* the chain had been used for a number of cuts. Namely the cuts shown (and more) in the very next post.

19.4 sec



*
The saw ran 40:1 H1R for the rest of the day. About half a gallon. A few people who ran the saw throughout the day, noted that the saw seemed to get stronger as the day progressed.*


----------



## redbull660

after the test the guys wanted to try the 36 tsumura and RS with their saws to see how they would fair...

Hedgerow cutting - ported 064 - 19.7 sec



Hedgerow cutting -tree monkey 064 



Dexterday cutting - his mastermind 460 -



Dexterday cutting -Jrsdws Tree monkey 460 -


----------



## porsche965

Where was that guy on this thread that said Red Bull would loose by 30%? Where did he get that number from?

So what this tells me is that it is way more important to have the oil/fuel ratio correct for a particular saw than performance enhancements. Correct? I mean, spend $300 for a port job for .4 seconds of an increase? Wow. And I own almost all ported saws, but running at 43.6:1 and have been for years.

Ported saws do make a difference when they are not gargling in oil. IMO

So much for calling Red Bull crazy from Wisconsin lol.


----------



## porsche965

That's a great running 046!


----------



## DexterDay

redbull660 said:


> after the test the guys wanted to try the 36 tsumura and RS with their saws to see how they would fair...
> 
> 046 ported hedgerow cutting - 19.7 sec




That's Matt's 064.


----------



## DexterDay

porsche965 said:


> Where was that guy on this thread that said Red Bull would loose by 30%? Where did he get that number from?
> 
> So what this tells me is that it is way more important to have the oil/fuel ratio correct for a particular saw than performance enhancements. Correct? I mean, spend $300 for a port job for .4 seconds of an increase? Wow. And I own almost all ported saws, but running at 43.6:1 and have been for years.
> 
> Ported saws do make a difference when they are not gargling in oil. IMO
> 
> So much for calling Red Bull crazy from Wisconsin lol.



The limitation is the saw itself (rpm). A ported 460 posted faster times than the muff mod 661 and also the ported 661. 

And the 460's were running 32:1.. One done by Randy and the other done by Tree Monkey. The Tree monkey 460 of @jrsdws was nasty 

Yep...


----------



## big t double

I like how that guy tebos when cutting 
Looks like a good time was had by all. I'd like to go to one of these gtgs and meet some of you folks sometime...but Saturday is our busiest day of the week so taking off this time if year just don't happen. Bummer.


----------



## porsche965

So is the Mtronics the limiting factor that otherwise would have the ported 32:1 saw pulling away by 30% as thought? But haven't we seen 30% improvement in videos before with 661s?


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Nope. I'll continue to use 32:1 in everything. I think H1R is off the list now though.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna jump in here and say that the H1R is just too thick......
> 
> I know when I wash it out of my measuring cup it takes several times to get it all out.


I don't think it's the viscosity only. I have ran other oils that have simular viscosity and they don't alter combustion.


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> I don't think it's the viscosity only. I have ran other oils that have simular viscosity and they don't alter combustion.



This "oddness" just seems to show up in the M/T saws. That's where I think the thickness matters.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Where was that guy on this thread that said Red Bull would loose by 30%? Where did he get that number from?
> 
> So what this tells me is that it is way more important to have the oil/fuel ratio correct for a particular saw than performance enhancements. Correct? I mean, spend $300 for a port job for .4 seconds of an increase? Wow. And I own almost all ported saws, but running at 43.6:1 and have been for years.
> 
> Ported saws do make a difference when they are not gargling in oil. IMO
> 
> So much for calling Red Bull crazy from Wisconsin lol.





porsche965 said:


> Where was that guy on this thread that said Red Bull would loose by 30%? Where did he get that number from?
> 
> So what this tells me is that it is way more important to have the oil/fuel ratio correct for a particular saw than performance enhancements. Correct? I mean, spend $300 for a port job for .4 seconds of an increase? Wow. And I own almost all ported saws, but running at 43.6:1 and have been for years.
> 
> Ported saws do make a difference when they are not gargling in oil. IMO
> 
> So much for calling Red Bull crazy from Wisconsin lol.


You can't really say much till your try another oil. With good oil ratio shouldn't matter and you should cut faster with more..


----------



## DexterDay

porsche965 said:


> So is the Mtronics the limiting factor that otherwise would have the ported 32:1 saw pulling away by 30% as thought? But haven't we seen 30% improvement in videos before with 661s?



What would have been a better test, is using both 50:1 and then 32:1 in *both* the stock and ported saws. And seeing the difference in what each ratio did in its own saw. 

Because both of the 460's had 32:1 and they ran just fine. 

Glad that Jrsdws is driving right now. I won't be able to read this thread for over 6 hours after we get to his place and I have to drive the remaining 6.5 hours to my house from there.


----------



## porsche965

It would be interesting to have a device that could measure the viscosity any oil ratio mixed with fuel had as the finished product.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> vids done...
> 
> - Both saws first drained of oil and gas.
> - same stihl bar oil
> -same bar - maul and I both have tsumura 36's. Some debate on if use them both or just use one and switch over. Ended up using same bar and switching.
> - air filter cleaned
> - 1 new stihl RS chain for each saw.
> - one small warm up cut in cotton wood prior to doing the 2 main cuts. Everyone involved was interested in making sure all the i's were dotted and t's crossed.
> 
> 
> Muff modded 661 50:1 H1R went first. I was cutting.
> 
> log 1 - 22.4 sec , log 2 - 26.0 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bar switched to ported 661, new chain used
> 
> Ported 661 32:1 H1R - I was cutting
> 
> log 1 - 22.0 sec , log 2 - 26.0 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bar already on ported 661 so we decided to do back to back.
> 
> ported 661 32:1 H1R - Hedgerow cutting
> 
> log 1 - 21.4 sec , log 2 - 25.0 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bar switched to muff modded 661 50:1 H1R (switched back to other chain) - Hedgegrow cutting
> 
> log 1 - 22.4 sec , log 2 - 25.4 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next,
> 
> *Switched the ported 661 from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R (performed reset)*
> 
> note - this cut was done *after* the chain had been used for a number of cuts. Namely the cuts shown (and more) in the very next post.
> 
> 19.4 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saw ran 40:1 H1R for the rest of the day. About half a gallon. A few people who ran the saw throughout the day, noted that the saw seemed to get stronger as the day progressed.



With Redbull: Ported 661 0.8% faster than the muffler modded 661
With Hedgerow: Ported 661 2.9% faster


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> It would be interesting to have a device that could measure the viscosity any oil ratio mixed with fuel had as the finished product.


This doesn't matter as the fuel and oil seperate as soon as the premix enters the motor for the most part.
I don't think it has anything to do with viscosity as Motul 800 isn't known for combustion issues but H1R is.


----------



## porsche965

Wouldn't the mix ratio have something to do with an oil's ability to combust?


----------



## Mastermind

I've got a lot of wok to do now. 

I'll have to redo all my testing with a new oil. I've been getting good gains over stock on the 661.......but so far, always with H1R @ 32:1.


----------



## Stihl 041S

bwalker said:


> The pressure transducers attach to the outside of the barrel. So you don't need a test barrel for personal use.
> The sytem.is a Oehler 43 and it cost about 1300 bucks ten years ago when friend purchased it.
> However, to be honest I seldom bother with it any more as velocity is an.indication of pressure and you can certainly use a chronograph like a oehler 35p to determine safe loads.


But with the 43 you have no accurate reference load. 
And velocity is NOT an indication of pressure. Except with the same powder. 
Some powders spike more than others.


----------



## nitehawk55

The fuel and the oil separate once it enters the engine ?.....really ??
Fuel goes to the combustion chamber and the oil to the bearings and friction surfaces ....hahaha !


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> The fuel and the oil separate once it enters the engine ?.....really ??
> Fuel goes to the combustion chamber and the oil to the bearings and friction surfaces ....hahaha !


Yes.


----------



## bwalker

Stihl 041S said:


> But with the 43 you have no accurate reference load.
> And velocity is NOT an indication of pressure. Except with the same powder.
> Some powders spike more than others.


Velocity is an indication of pressure. Whole articles have been written on this subject.


----------



## Stihl 041S

bwalker said:


> Velocity is an indication of pressure. Whole articles have been written on this subject.


Only with the same powder. 
Try getting a 320 gr bullet to 1300 in a 45 Colt with 231.....


----------



## bwalker

Stihl 041S said:


> Only with the same powder.
> Try getting a 320 gr bullet to 1300 in a 45 Colt with 231.....


And this matters how? What your trying to accomplish if to determine the pressure ceilings of a particular bullet power combo.
Hobestly, I rarely use the 43 any more as a 35p and some published data accomplishes the same thing.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Wouldn't the mix ratio have something to do with an oil's ability to combust?


Not with good oil. Kart guys run motul 800 down to 16:1 without issue. I have run 2R down to 20:1 without issue.


----------



## Ron660

Stihl 041S said:


> Only with the same powder.
> Try getting a 320 gr bullet to 1300 in a 45 Colt with 231.....


 My Colt NF couldn't handle that pressure. You must be using a Ruger SA or Freedom Arms. Gun thread same time as a oil thread....lol.


----------



## Stihl 041S

bwalker said:


> And this matters how? What your trying to accomplish if to determine the pressure ceilings of a particular bullet power combo.
> Hobestly, I rarely use the 43 any more as a 35p and some published data accomplishes the same thing.


You said velocity is an indication of pressure. 
Some on here may not realize it only works with the same powder. 
Misunderstandings with reloading can be bad. 
If you get 1300 with H110 some may think you can get the same pressure when you use 231 or Bullseye to try to reach that velocity. 
If velocity is an indication of pressure. Without adding "With the same powder. "
There was a LOT of work with Pressure and penetration work with the gunsmith I worked with. 
That sounds weird. 
Anyway. Folks may not know.


----------



## Mastermind

Can we talk about food too? 

I just had some damn good polk salad for super......


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Can we talk about food too?
> 
> I just had some damn good polk salad for super......


Did u scold and wash it 3 times ? Lol! My Mom use to make it!!


----------



## Stihl 041S

Ron660 said:


> My Colt NF couldn't handle that pressure. You must be using a Ruger SA or Freedom Arms. Gun thread same time as a oil thread....lol.


Yeah. I worried some folks may misread what he said. 
It's in Ruger. Tested in the H. P. White Labs. None better. 
I got near that in the "3 screw 357" size Ruger. Like the New Vaquero. 
I took an old 357 and a New Model 357 cylinder. Opens the frame window. Turned the cylinder to fit and rechambered to 45 Colt. 
Just one step down from full house Ruger loads, but in that Colt size frame. There is a difference in the way they feel. 

One of those New VaqueroBisleys is going to be a 5 shot 480. 

Great fun.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> vids done...
> 
> - Both saws first drained of oil and gas.
> - same stihl bar oil
> -same bar - maul and I both have tsumura 36's. Some debate on if use them both or just use one and switch over. Ended up using same bar and switching.
> - air filter cleaned
> - 1 new stihl RS chain for each saw.
> - one small warm up cut in cotton wood prior to doing the 2 main cuts. Everyone involved was interested in making sure all the i's were dotted and t's crossed.
> 
> 
> Muff modded 661 50:1 H1R went first. I was cutting.
> 
> log 1 - 22.4 sec , log 2 - 26.0 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bar switched to ported 661, new chain used
> 
> Ported 661 32:1 H1R - I was cutting
> 
> log 1 - 22.0 sec , log 2 - 26.0 sec
> 
> 
> 
> Hedgerow: Fastest time with ported 661 using 32:1 vs ported 661 using 40:1:
> 40:1 was 9.3% faster than 32:1 in the ported 661.
> 
> 
> bar already on ported 661 so we decided to do back to back.
> 
> ported 661 32:1 H1R - Hedgerow cutting
> 
> log 1 - 21.4 sec , log 2 - 25.0 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bar switched to muff modded 661 50:1 H1R (switched back to other chain) - Hedgegrow cutting
> 
> log 1 - 22.4 sec , log 2 - 25.4 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next,
> 
> *Switched the ported 661 from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R (performed reset)*
> 
> note - this cut was done *after* the chain had been used for a number of cuts. Namely the cuts shown (and more) in the very next post.
> 
> 19.4 sec
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The saw ran 40:1 H1R for the rest of the day. About half a gallon. A few people who ran the saw throughout the day, noted that the saw seemed to get stronger as the day progressed.


----------



## Stihl 041S

Mastermind said:


> Can we talk about food too?
> 
> I just had some damn good polk salad for super......


A bathtub full cooked down to a kettle full??

Hey Randy.


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> Did u scold and wash it 3 times ? Lol! My Mom use to make it!!



Blanched it twice.........then fried it with bacon.


----------



## Mastermind

Stihl 041S said:


> A bathtub full cooked down to a kettle full??
> 
> Hey Randy.



Something like that. 

Hey Uncle Rob !!!!


----------



## bwalker

Stihl 041S said:


> You said velocity is an indication of pressure.
> Some on here may not realize it only works with the same powder.
> Misunderstandings with reloading can be bad.
> If you get 1300 with H110 some may think you can get the same pressure when you use 231 or Bullseye to try to reach that velocity.
> If velocity is an indication of pressure. Without adding "With the same powder. "
> There was a LOT of work with Pressure and penetration work with the gunsmith I worked with.
> That sounds weird.
> Anyway. Folks may not know.


If someone thinks that they shouldn't be reloading.


----------



## bwalker

Stihl 041S said:


> Yeah. I worried some folks may misread what he said.
> It's in Ruger. Tested in the H. P. White Labs. None better.
> I got near that in the "3 screw 357" size Ruger. Like the New Vaquero.
> I took an old 357 and a New Model 357 cylinder. Opens the frame window. Turned the cylinder to fit and rechambered to 45 Colt.
> Just one step down from full house Ruger loads, but in that Colt size frame. There is a difference in the way they feel.
> 
> One of those New VaqueroBisleys is going to be a 5 shot 480.
> 
> Great fun.


I could never understand why ruger never sold the 480 in a Blackhawk Bisely.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> after the test the guys wanted to try the 36 tsumura and RS with their saws to see how they would fair...
> 
> Hedgerow cutting - ported 064 - 19.7 sec
> 
> 
> 
> Hedgerow cutting -
> 
> 
> 
> Dexterday cutting - his mastermind 460 -
> 
> 
> 
> Dexterday cutting -Jrsdws Tree monkey 460 -




Fastest stock 661 (50:1) vs fastest ported 661 (40:1):
Ported 661 (40:1) was 13.3% faster than the fastest stock 661 using 50:1.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I could never understand why ruger never sold the 480 in a Blackhawk Bisely.


 Or a Super Blackhawk.


----------



## Stihl 041S

bwalker said:


> If someone thinks that they shouldn't be reloading.


Everyone has to learn. 
And some read things differently. 
Like when gunwriters said 45 Colt brass was weak because it showed a bulge. Or the 45 in a Ruger would blow up if shot to energy levels of the 44 Mag. 
People read thing differently or from a poor source. 
Pax.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Not with good oil. Kart guys run motul 800 down to 16:1 without issue. I have run 2R down to 20:1 without issue.



What issues have you observed using H1R? (This thread is so long maybe you did address this and I missed it) Were these issues across the board or only at certain ratios? Chainsaw related of course. Thanks.


----------



## porsche965

Ron660 said:


> Fastest stock 661 (50:1) vs fastest ported 661 (40:1):
> Ported 661 (40:1) was 13.3% faster than the fastest stock 661 using 50:1.



I'm still not seeing the elusive 30% claims no matter how many times I run my stopwatch. ??


----------



## Stihl 041S

bwalker said:


> I could never understand why ruger never sold the 480 in a Blackhawk Bisely.


They load the 480 to within 2000 psi(cups?) of the 475.
Which is within the realm of error.
Ruger only did a few SRH in 5 shot 480. Then they went to the new cylinder material for the six shot 480&454.
They don't seem to wanna do a 5 shot in the BH
I rechambered a 45 to short 475. Cut the rim down.
Only gonna get about 750-800 out of it.
But a fun little gun.
480 is a great round.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Blanched it twice.........then fried it with bacon.


Whoa!! That sounds good!! Ever had lettuce with cooked bacon crunched up in it and the grease poured over the lettuce!!! Wilted lettuce!! Real good but bad unhealthy!!! Lol!!


----------



## Stihl 041S

Ron660 said:


> Or a Super Blackhawk.


NO. That Dragoon trigger guard is bad. 
My mom said so. 
A buddy has one of the SBH with the round trigger guard. 
More gooder.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> I'm still not seeing the elusive 30% claims no matter how many times I run my stopwatch. ??


We are talking about mtronics saws here though. Reg. Carb saws have easily showed 30 to 40% gains over stock by just porting? By no way does this show that porting is a waste of time?


----------



## Stihl 041S

KG441c said:


> Whoa!! That sounds good!! Ever had lettuce with cooked bacon crunched up in it and the grease poured over the lettuce!!! Wilted lettuce!! Real good but bad unhealthy!!! Lol!!


Makes me think of Tyrone Kentucky. Oh that's good. 
You can eat like that if you work like few do these days.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> What issues have you observed using H1R? (This thread is so long maybe you did address this and I missed it) Were these issues across the board or only at certain ratios? Chainsaw related of course. Thanks.


I did and posted pics. It's dirty burning crap and it inhibits combustion in my expiereance over several different bikes.


----------



## barneyrb

porsche965 said:


> I'm still not seeing the elusive 30% claims no matter how many times I run my stopwatch. ??



Well, I'm not taking up for anyone but in the introduction the "stock" 661 clearly has the muffler modded so it ain't exactly stock (as it left the factory)


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> Whoa!! That sounds good!! Ever had lettuce with cooked bacon crunched up in it and the grease poured over the lettuce!!! Wilted lettuce!! Real good but bad unhealthy!!! Lol!!



Oh man.......I love wilted leaf lettuce with green onions diced up in it......

Remembering that we are still just talking about one model.......the MS661. I'm not gonna say that 32:1 is a bad idea. I have no plans to stop mixing that way. 

We were seeing blown cranks in 372s and 390s until we started using H1R at 32:1. Maybe that's because I use too much compression......but I'm not likely to change that either. 

I am using 2R right now........and will be using it till I'm sure cranks will live with that oil at 32:1. The tuning oddities that H1R have has always left me wondering WTF was going on with it. At least with 2R I'm not seeing a lean condition when I switch a saw over from OE oils......

I'll like to see a few guys that run a lot of fuel make this switch with me. Run 2R for a few months.......and let us know how it turns out. I'll be asking around.


----------



## porsche965

KG441c said:


> We are talking about mtronics saws here though. Reg. Carb saws have easily showed 30 to 40% gains over stock by just porting? By no way does this show that porting is a waste of time?



I like my ported saws


----------



## Mastermind

porsche965 said:


> I like my ported saws



Porting saws is just a silly fad you know.


----------



## porsche965

Not according to those who haven't run one and then run mine


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> We are talking about mtronics saws here though. Reg. Carb saws have easily showed 30 to 40% gains over stock by just porting? By no way does this show that porting is a waste of time?


Are we seeing a pattern where Mtronic saws gain less than regular carb saws? Same thing with Husky's Autotune?
Strato is a good thing, but I am not sold on the compensating carbs just yet.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I don't think it's the viscosity only. I have ran other oils that have simular viscosity and they don't alter combustion.


R50 is incredibly thick an doesn't effect combustion. Klotz Super tech on the other hand effects tuning in the same manner as H1R.


----------



## Andyshine77

Red bull thanks again for putting this together. Like I said earlier the numbers didn't add up to what I've seen. As of now it looks like H1R may be the reason, in time we'll know for sure.


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> R50 is incredibly thick an doesn't effect combustion. Klotz Super tech on the other hand effects tuning in the same manner as H1R.


My stuff runs best on R50 or 800 off road @ 32:1
Nice and crispy throttle, smoothe high end ........... easy to tune and M-Tronic .............. they all run great on both. Much better than K2 and H1R ran.


----------



## Trx250r180

Didn't the h1r make more power than the stihl mix?


----------



## Moparmyway

barneyrb said:


> Well, I'm not taking up for anyone but in the introduction the "stock" 661 clearly has the muffler modded so it ain't exactly stock (as it left the factory)


The difference between running a 661 with a stock muffler opening like the first pic, and running a 661 with the opening like the 2nd pic is absolutely astonishing.


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> The difference between running a 661 with a stock muffler opening like the first pic, and running a 661 with the opening like the 2nd pic is absolutely astonishing.


That really surprises me, as the 661 muffler is not stuffed up like most other saws. It has a large exit like older saws. I've personally not tested just a muffler mod though.


----------



## blsnelling

This is several times the area of a MS660.







The internal box offers no restriction at all.


----------



## Andyshine77

Moparmyway said:


> My stuff runs best on R50 or 800 off road @ 32:1
> Nice and crispy throttle, smoothe high end ........... easy to tune and M-Tronic .............. they all run great on both. Much better than K2 and H1R ran.


I do not see performance differences with most oils, I haven't see any between K2 or R50.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

motul 800, lucas, r50,h1r
I never have noticed any difference in performance using the four above other than the 800 smoked a little more than the rest did at 32:1
and i needed to get screwdriver crazy with the h1r had to turn it out the high side 1/8 -- 2/3.


----------



## porsche965

Ok, back to basics. All these motorcycle oils are the boutique of the day it seems. From one to another to another. 

How about a traditional Chainsaw Oil made expressively for Chainsaws? What are the top two if one had to pick two? This could be started as a pole I guess. Go ahead anyone! Andre, you have pretty much tried them all. What do you think?


----------



## porsche965

So with H1R needing to turn out the H screw so far wouldn't the fuel mileage suffer terribly? What would be the point in that?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i never did care about the fuel economy though i can tell you my lawn boy 2 strokes ran better on h1r than the rest
a bit less noisy and smoother. though the slobber from the exhaust is awful.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> i never did care about the fuel economy though i can tell you my lawn boy 2 strokes ran better on h1r than the rest
> a bit less noisy and smoother. though the slobber from the exhaust is awful.


Lawnboy should only be ran on tcw3 outboard oil. Penzoil synthetic has worked great in mine.
The exhaust port is very small on a LB and you will carbon it up quickie your are drooling like that.


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> Are we seeing a pattern where Mtronic saws gain less than regular carb saws? Same thing with Husky's Autotune?
> Strato is a good thing, but I am not sold on the compensating carbs just yet.



Not at all. I've gotten the biggest gain from a MS261C than any other saw.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Ok, back to basics. All these motorcycle oils are the boutique of the day it seems. From one to another to another.
> 
> How about a traditional Chainsaw Oil made expressively for Chainsaws? What are the top two if one had to pick two? This could be started as a pole I guess. Go ahead anyone! Andre, you have pretty much tried them all. What do you think?


Citgo air cooled and Husky silver bottle are decent. Then problem is in the case of the OEM oils is that you can buy better for cheaper.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Not at all. I've gotten the biggest gain from a MS261C than any other saw.


Ok, just wondering.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

bwalker said:


> Lawnboy should only be ran on tcw3 outboard oil. Penzoil synthetic has worked great in mine.
> The exhaust port is very small on a LB and you will carbon it up quickie your are drooling like that.


i have not ran tcw3 in the mower for years it burns way cleaner,less smoke and doesn't foul the plugs or clog the exhaust up.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

bwalker said:


> Citgo air cooled and Husky silver bottle are decent. Then problem is in the case of the OEM oils is that you can buy better for cheaper.


citgo land and sea is good stuff and its rated jaso fd. has a wierd color though.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> citgo land and sea is good stuff and its rated jaso fd. has a wierd color though.


Yea, but it's an injector oil. I really prefer not to pre mix injector oils.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> i have not ran tcw3 in the mower for years it burns way cleaner,less smoke and doesn't foul the plugs or clog the exhaust up.


Than you were not using the right TCW3 oil. I haven't replaced a plug in my LB in years.
The thing about a LB is that they operate at constant throttle. As result the mettalic additives found in air cooled oils really start to buildup.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

bwalker said:


> Yea, but it's an injector oil. I really prefer not to pre mix injector oils.


the oil is use says premix or injector and it is smokeless and has no smell i get it for 7.99 quart.


----------



## blsnelling

Amsoil Dominator is for use in either as well.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> the oil is use says premix or injector and it is smokeless and has no smell i get it for 7.99 quart.
> View attachment 421208


And I would not use it either.


----------



## bikemike

jakewells said:


> the oil is use says premix or injector and it is smokeless and has no smell i get it for 7.99 quart.
> View attachment 421208


I like the syn blends a bit of both worlds. I pulled the plugs on my top handles. been running 40.1 and they were leather brown. And not crusty or gummed up


----------



## bikemike

So how did the gtg go? Was the ported saw slow or the same as a stock saw?


----------



## blsnelling

Just learned that Motul 710 can be used in an injector bike. I'm guessing that most any 2T oil with those viscosities would work in with injectors.


----------



## bwalker

L


blsnelling said:


> Just learned that Motul 710 can be used in an injector bike. I'm guessing that most any 2T oil with those viscosities would work in with injectors.


710 has an almost identical viscosity to 2R. The Lucas product is quit a bit thinner. I'd don't think I would run 710 in an injector system if the temps where below freezing.


----------



## cuttinties

DexterDay said:


> That's Matt's 064.


Yes it is


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> after the test the guys wanted to try the 36 tsumura and RS with their saws to see how they would fair...
> 
> Hedgerow cutting - ported 064 - 19.7 sec
> 
> 
> 
> Hedgerow cutting -
> 
> 
> 
> Dexterday cutting - his mastermind 460 -
> 
> 
> 
> Dexterday cutting -Jrsdws Tree monkey 460 -



I think the difference between the stock 661 and ported 661 may be larger with a not stock chain. I'm not saying that the results aren't valid, just saying that you can't take a stock loop and utilize power to the best ability of a saw. Looks like you had fun


----------



## DexterDay

bwalker said:


> You can't really say much till your try another oil. With good oil ratio shouldn't matter and you should cut faster with more..





porsche965 said:


> I'm still not seeing the elusive 30% claims no matter how many times I run my stopwatch. ??



It's there. . Just not the 661. I wish we would have ran a stock 460. We did in a smaller log and the results were greater than 30%.


cuttinties said:


> I think the difference between the stock 661 and ported 661 may be larger with a not stock chain. I'm not saying that the results aren't valid, just saying that you can't take a stock loop and utilize power to the best ability of a saw. Looks like you had fun



Where the hell were you? It quit raining before 11am and was nice all day (a little wet ) Took 11.5 hrs for me to drive home today (9.5 to Iowa with time loss)


----------



## cuttinties

DexterDay said:


> It's there. . Just not the 661. I wish we would have ran a stock 460. We did in a smaller log and the results were greater than 30%.
> 
> 
> Where the hell were you? It quit raining before 11am and was nice all day (a little wet ) Took 11.5 hrs for me to drive home today (9.5 to Iowa with time loss)


At home I had to drive the other direction today. Trees don't kill and cut themselves to length. I just didn't have the funds available to make both trips like I thought I would.


----------



## DexterDay

cuttinties said:


> At home I had to drive the other direction today. Trees don't kill and cut themselves to length. I just didn't have the funds available to make both trips like I thought I would.



Always next year bro...


----------



## bryanr2

This has got to be the #1 oil thread in AS history!


----------



## cuttinties

DexterDay said:


> Always next year bro...


I'd like to go to Kentucky but I'll probably send my saw with someone and stay home.


----------



## CR888

Some 2T oils are designed for premix...others are not. As for HR1 l would be testing it in the conditions it was designed to be mixed at 50:1. I bet at 50:1 the results would differ considerably. Some oils take well to higher mix ratios, some don't. As there is really no rules as to what can be printed on an oil bottle, marketing has a big part on what oil people run. It almost becomes personal and all practical rationality gets tossed over board. People feel warm and fuzzy inside sleeping better knowing that the most expensive man made perfect oil is mixed in their saw no matter what the cost is or what the saws best interests really are. We also think we are smarter than OEM's getting our ambitions completely mixed up with our capabilities. In my experience OEM's are not as uninformed as we treat them.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> And I would not use it either.


Why wouldn't you use Lucas?


----------



## blsnelling

cuttinties said:


> I think the difference between the stock 661 and ported 661 may be larger with a not stock chain. I'm not saying that the results aren't valid, just saying that you can't take a stock loop and utilize power to the best ability of a saw. Looks like you had fun


The same would apply to the stock saw. A good chain can make as much or more difference than a good port job.

I've personally seen no issues running the 661 with 32:1. However, I don't recall if I was running H1-R or K2.

I am done with H1-R though. My recommendations will stay almost as they were. Pick your favorite synthetic oil, now maybe a semi synthetic, and run it at 32:1, no less than 40:1.

This thread had been a good eye opener for sure. I actually mixed some K2 at 40:1 Saturday! I got significantly less smoke at startup.


----------



## cuttinties

blsnelling said:


> The same would apply to the stock saw. A good chain can make as much or more difference than a good port job.
> 
> I've personally seen no issues running the 661 with 32:1. However, I don't recall if I was running H1-R or K2.
> 
> I am done with H1-R though. My recommendations will stay almost as they were. Pick your favorite synthetic oil, now maybe a semi synthetic, and run it at 32:1, no less than 40:1.
> 
> This thread had been a good eye opener for sure. I actually mixed some K2 at 40:1 Saturday! I got significantly less smoke at startup.


Lucas is a good semi synthetic that runs well at 32:1. Well anyway enough about oil I've got a new landing to make and skidders to move. I'll catch you guys on the flip side.


----------



## Mastermind

CR888 said:


> Some 2T oils are designed for premix...others are not. As for HR1 l would be testing it in the conditions it was designed to be mixed at 50:1. I bet at 50:1 the results would differ considerably. Some oils take well to higher mix ratios, some don't. As there is really no rules as to what can be printed on an oil bottle, marketing has a big part on what oil people run. It almost becomes personal and all practical rationality gets tossed over board. People feel warm and fuzzy inside sleeping better knowing that the most expensive man made perfect oil is mixed in their saw no matter what the cost is or what the saws best interests really are. We also think we are smarter than OEM's getting our ambitions completely mixed up with our capabilities. In my experience OEM's are not as uninformed as we treat them.



Excellent post. Well said.

I've said for a long while now.......respect the designers of these engines.......they are not at all clueless.



blsnelling said:


> *The same would apply to the stock saw. A good chain can make as much or more difference than a good port job.*
> 
> I've personally seen no issues running the 661 with 32:1. However, I don't recall if I was running H1-R or K2.
> 
> I am done with H1-R though. My recommendations will stay almost as they were. Pick your favorite synthetic oil, now maybe a semi synthetic, and run it at 32:1, no less than 40:1.
> 
> This thread had been a good eye opener for sure. I actually mixed some K2 at 40:1 Saturday! I got significantly less smoke at startup.



Yep.....I've gotten 35% gain from a chain......and I'm not a great chain maker.


----------



## cuttinties

Real quick before I hit the woods. Why not take these oils and do an evaporation test? Say 50ml of fuel in a glass container and wait for the fuel to evaporate. Then see which ones feel oil like or like molasses. After all many guys leave saws sit for extended periods of time.


----------



## KG441c

Lets see??? Which flavor this morning!!??


----------



## porsche965

Blend away lol.

Starting to look like the back shelf of a bar! I'm getting the same way.


----------



## KG441c

They sent the belray 2t to me by mistake when I ordered the h1r but told me to keep it. Been using it in a br600 blower, shindiawa t270, and a echo 225 at 40to1 with no issues or buildup


----------



## porsche965

I wonder how the BR 600 valves will like that 2Toil? They seem to be really sensitive to oil mixes. I run straight ultra just because of that in the BR 600.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> I wonder how the BR 600 valves will like that 2Toil? They seem to be really sensitive to oil mixes. I run straight ultra just because of that in the BR 600.


Porsche I rebuilt my 600 and was using ultra and had buildup under the valves. Best thing to do imo on the valved blowers is to run Yamaha Ringfree with your oil


----------



## KenJax Tree

Todays flavor is Maxima Super M with the last few oz. i have of K2 mixed in.....i think it has 60% K2 blended in it anyways.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Todays flavor is Maxima Super M with a few oz. of the last of my K2 mixed in.....i think it has 60% K2 blended in it anyways.


Your saws r gonna blow today blending oils!!! Lol!! Ive mixed Amsoil and ultra with 0 issues


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Blend away lol.
> 
> Starting to look like the back shelf of a bar! I'm getting the same way.


Ya all the oils I currently dont run in my ported saws get used in the weedtrimmers and blower with Ringfree. I use the most current super duper oil in my ported saws that my tangled mind told me was best today!!!! Lmbo!!!


----------



## KG441c

In another oil thread we had I talked with the Maxima tech and he told me the thicker oils do impede combustion and wasnt what we needed in our saws. I presented the idea the tech had told me on that thread but if I recall correctly I was told several times I was over thinking it?? Lol!! Guess it doesn't hurt to overthink sometimes


----------



## porsche965

Ringfree. Why not?

I just happen to have room for one more bottle on my bench!


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> I do not see performance differences with most oils, I haven't see any between K2 or R50.


I thought the K2 had a different idle .......... couldn't smoothe it out as well as the R50 and the 800 off road, maybe it was just me. I started trying Lucas; seems to run and lube as well as 800, but R50 is still the best looking and running in every application so far ............. the smell can be "too much" sometimes, so that puts 800 off road and Lucas as my top 3.

Call me crazy, but I might just mix R50 and 800 off road 50/50 just to see if it works and if I like it on one of my "beater" 2 stroke motors that sees ethanol.


----------



## porsche965

After this oil thread the more I think the less I know


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> In another oil thread we had I talked with the Maxima tech and he told me the thicker oils do impede combustion and wasnt what we needed in our saws. I presented the idea the tech had told me on that thread but if I recall correctly I was told several times I was over thinking it?? Lol!! Guess it doesn't hurt to overthink sometimes


Anyone that doesn't just pour in a 50:1 bottle of OEM oil is probably overthinking[emoji3]


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> After this oil thread the more I think the less I know


Me too Porsche!! Lol!!


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Anyone that doesn't just pour in a 50:1 bottle of OEM oil is probably overthinking[emoji3]


I dont agree with that one Chris but I do think your Lucas is just fine. I ran several quarts through a heavy ported cr85 at 32to1with o issues. Bwalker has had alota great points he brought forth in this thread and Redbulls test opened alota eyes! I wont run 50to1 as I see alota weedtrimmers, blowers ,and saws that ive opened up running 50to1 oil and mostly ultra because people assume its best? Ive seen alota scoring and overheated cylinders with it. This 1986 husky 181 im working on now was ran with a variety of oils @ 32to1 with mininal carbon buildup and scoring and wear was almost non existent


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> I thought the K2 had a different idle .......... couldn't smoothe it out as well as the R50 and the 800 off road, maybe it was just me. I started trying Lucas; seems to run and lube as well as 800, but R50 is still the best looking and running in every application so far ............. the smell can be "too much" sometimes, so that puts 800 off road and Lucas as my top 3.
> 
> Call me crazy, but I might just mix R50 and 800 off road 50/50 just to see if it works and if I like it on one of my "beater" 2 stroke motors that sees ethanol.


 I like the "tropical" coconut smell of the 800 off-road. I'm not sure if the 710 smells the same. A friend of mine that has a lawn service said he uses Husqvarna and Redmax 2-cycle oil and hasn't had any engine issues.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> I dont agree with that one Chris but I do think your Lucas is just fine. I ran several quarts through a heavy ported cr85 at 32to1with o issues. Bwalker has had alota great points he brought forth in this thread and Redbulls test opened alota eyes! I wont run 50to1 as I see alota weedtrimmers, blowers ,and saws that ive opened up running 50to1 oil and mostly ultra because people assume its best? Ive seen alota scoring and overheated cylinders with it. This 1986 husky 181 im working on now was ran with a variety of oils @ 32to1 with mininal carbon buildup and scoring and wear was almost non existent


 Keith, after you get that old Husky 181 back together post a few pics....piston pics if you have time. What's the compression of that 181 after you deleted the base gasket? I'm staying with 32:1 myself.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Keith, after you get that old Husky 181 back together post a few pics....piston pics if you have time. What's the compression of that 181 after you deleted the base gasket? I'm staying with 32:1 myself.


Already cleaned the carbon and piston up but the old saw wont be a looker as the guy was only concerned with function . I offered to order him a new topcover and clutch cover but no go!! Lol!! I wanted to do a full restore for him but wasnt important to the customer


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Keith, after you get that old Husky 181 back together post a few pics....piston pics if you have time. What's the compression of that 181 after you deleted the base gasket? I'm staying with 32:1 myself.


Compression went from 170 to around 190 to 195 by just deleting the gasket


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> Anyone that doesn't just pour in a 50:1 bottle of OEM oil is probably overthinking[emoji3]


Sometimes overthinking is needed


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Compression went from 170 to around 190 to 195 by just deleting the gasket


 Does that 181 have the same size piston as your 390xp? 54 or 55mm??


----------



## KG441c

54


Ron660 said:


> Does that 181 have the same size piston as your 390xp? 54 or 55mm??


----------



## Outlaw5.0

I'm using up the R50 at 40:1 in my string trimmer and blower, it smells decent also. The chainsaws will get to try some Yamalube.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i thought about mixing my left over stocks of H1R , R50 , 800 2T
together and i wonder how it would perform.


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> 54


181 should be 52mm


----------



## mdavlee

H1r works great for drill bit lube.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 181 should be 52mm


I dont know really but saw a cylinder kit somewhere that said 54. Probably a big bore?


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> H1r works great for drill bit lube.


Lol!!!


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> I dont know really but saw a cylinder kit somewhere that said 54. Probably a big bore?


288 is 54mm. All the aftermarket are 54mm.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 181 should be 52mm


Thats correct Mike I just looked it up. 52mm oem and 54 big bore. Sorry


----------



## Deleted member 83629

we all need to go to honduras and purchase a new 61 and 262xp 
they still sell them there.


----------



## KG441c

Wow!! 


jakewells said:


> we all need to go to honduras and purchase a new 61 and 262xp
> they still sell them there.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 288 is 54mm. All the aftermarket are 54mm.


Mike have u used one of the 54 big bores on a 181 se?


----------



## KG441c

Man that thing is sanded down!!! Lol!!!


Moparmyway said:


> Sometimes overthinking is needed


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> Wow!!


use the slide scroll they carry the 55, 61, 362, 272xp, 288xp
http://www.husqvarna.com/br/products/chainsaws/husqvarna-chainsaws-for-homeowners/


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i need to buy both of these for a 32:1 test


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> H1r works great for drill bit lube.


I'd use it for keeping dust down on a gravel driveway...


----------



## KenJax Tree

Not sure why you're so hung up on solvents. I've never had a problem running 40:1 using any oil i've used. Commercially not testing cookie cuts.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok gotcha[emoji6]


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Nothing wrong with Randy's port work.
> 
> Nothing wrong with H1-R either. From what I can tell it's one of the best oils out there. You guys just aren't thinking about it correctly...
> 
> 
> Stihl ultra = di-ester oil (~80-90%) + additives (10-20%). That's it. NO solvents in it.
> 
> Additives = are your rust inhibitors, cleansers few other things
> 
> 
> H1R = di-ester oil 90% + 10% additives. That's it. NO solvents in it.
> 
> Yamalube 2r https://www.jakewilson.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf
> blue dye .5%
> base oil (dino and syn) 54-75%
> solvent 10-15%
> Pour depressant - .5%
> additives 16-20%
> 
> 
> There is less amount of oil in the bottle of yamalube.
> 
> *News flash:* blue dye, pour depressant, and solvent. ISNT ****ING OIL!!!!!!!! (tried to explain it before, but no one would listen, just wanted to say I was stupid, crazy, wacked etc about my challenge)
> 
> *
> If you run 32:1 yamalube, then you are running leaner then 32:1 belray h1r. *
> 
> 
> If you discount the %'s of solvents and non oils in the yamalube bottle. I'd guess you'd have to run around *25:1* yamalube to get the *same amount of oil* in the gas, as you have with 32:1 H1R
> 
> run 25:1 yamalube probably see some performance issues... ie. THAT MUCH OIL IN THE MIX might hinder combustion, cause piston to slow down, might cause "tuning oddities".
> 
> 
> And no I'm not saying you should all run 50:1 H1R.
> 
> Seems to me the thicker oils like h1r 800 r50 should be run 36-40:1.
> 
> Thinner oils 2r, k2, 710, lucas, should be run at 32:1. Me I wouldn't go even to 40:1 on those. Since your really running leaner with most of them...all those mentioned have solvents which isn't oil.
> 
> as for what is cheapest vs running a thicker at 40:1 vs a thinner at 32:1. bean counters can figure that out.


Yamalube will run cleanly down to 20:1 in my expiereance and kart guys run it at 16:1.
Most oils do not inhibit conbustion like H1R does and besides its just dirty burning crap.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Yamalube will run cleanly down to 20:1 in my expiereance and kart guys run it at 16:1.
> H1R is just dirty burning crap.


And I might add that just about every actual FD certified oil has a solvent in it and for good reason.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> H1R burns clean for me. You run enough of any oil and it's going to burn dirty.
> 
> Yamalube has a lot of non oils in it....so many I bet it would run 25:1 in a saw no problem.


Lot of non oils? It has around 10% dilluent.. big deal..
I know your hung up on H1R, but I would suggest just about any other oil talked about here is a better choice..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> not buying the whole certified oil thing. sorry. stihl ultra is certified and it's dirty as crap. I've ran it in my saws for years at 40:1 , 45:1 and 50:1. DIRTY no matter what. Have heard from several people it's even worse at 32:1.


Others haven't noticed Ultra to be dirty. In regards to that piston pic you posted you ran very little of it and jumped to conclusions. The rust preventative that's sometimes added to motors at the factory could of caused that, or more likely you were running on the lean side.
I also do not believe that Ultra is FD or EGD certified. It only claims to meet FD. Say what you want but the most current ISO AND JASO tests are pretty damn stringent.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> run 25:1 yamalube probably see some performance issues... ie. THAT MUCH OIL IN THE MIX might hinder combustion, cause piston to slow down, might cause "tuning oddities".





redbull660 said:


> Yamalube has a lot of non oils in it....so many I bet it would run 25:1 in a saw no problem.


Which is it? You're contradicting yourself.



redbull660 said:


> stihl ultra is certified and it's dirty as crap. I've ran it in my saws for years at 40:1 , 45:1 and 50:1. DIRTY no matter what. Have heard from several people it's even worse at 32:1.


Like I said before, that's not always the case. I have a customer that runs it at 32:1 with VERY clean results. You can't ignore the data that doesn't match your preconceived ideas. You're still jumping to conclusion without supporting evidence and contrary to what others are trying to tell you.


----------



## bwalker

Btw the JASO smoke test is ran at a 10:1 ratio and the exhaust port blocking test is ran at IIRC 5:1.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> what part of what I said, didn't you read? let me help you: "I've run stihl ultra for years in my saws at 40:1, 45:1, 50:1..."
> 
> we all know you've got it all figured out. But if your going to respond at least read the post completely or slower or whatever it takes.
> 
> 
> I don't care if it's certified or not. I'm going to test it and if my tests show 2r rocks, then your going to say I told ya so. And if my tests show it actually sucks. Then your going to say im an idiot or I did it wrong or whatever...no matter what you will think 2r is the best. Great.


Frankly, I don't think you have the knowledge, objectivity of the credibility to make any judgment on oil performance. Your more concerned with being right than getting it right.
It's not just what I think in regards to 2R. It has a 30 year track record of excellant performance in a variety of applications. There are also other oils that might be better, but you won't find very many and none with as long a record.


----------



## bwalker

FWIW I ran ultra briefly and didn't notice it to be dirty, but really I can't say for certain as I didn't run it long enough.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> contradicting myself - taking things out of context again aye brad? That is what your going to try and discredit me with? Pretty weak. I expected more out of you.
> 
> redbull660 said: ↑
> run 25:1 yamalube probably see some performance issues... ie. THAT MUCH OIL IN THE MIX might hinder combustion, cause piston to slow down, might cause "tuning oddities".
> redbull660 said: ↑
> Yamalube has a lot of non oils in it....so many I bet it would run 25:1 in a saw no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> yamalube at 25:1 performance wise yeah might suffer vs 32:1. Might see some "tuning oddities". BUT it has so much non oil in it that it might still run ok at 25:1.
> 
> Clear enough for ya now?


Your grasping.. I have ran it lower than 24:1 and didn't have any issues. Expiereance trumps guessing.
And you are really being a drama queen on the solvent thing. 10% isn't much, but if your hung up on it use R50 or better yet 800T...anything is better than that tar you are running.


----------



## bwalker

Brad, I see you can still by Mobil 2R on ebay shipped from the UK. That's the ultimate!


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Brad, I see you can still by Mobil 2R on ebay shipped from the UK. That's the ultimate!


Its not cheap either


----------



## blsnelling

I have a quart on the way from Germany


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> contradicting myself - taking things out of context again aye brad? That is what your going to try and discredit me with? Pretty weak. I expected more out of you.
> 
> Clear enough for ya now?


No. I don't see where I took it out of context. 

Do you not see that you're making a lot of assumptions without sufficient evidence, or contrary to what others are telling you?

*You've provided a lot of useful information in this thread. * I just think you're making assumptions that you don't know to be true.


----------



## andydodgegeek

Didn't read the whole thread but I was at the Iowa GTG and the one thing I can say for certain is my Treemonkeyed 064 with 6 month + old gas mixed at 32:1 with amsoil saber took 1st place in your oil test. I will not change what I am doing.


----------



## blsnelling

That 064 blew my mind when I got to run it!


----------



## andydodgegeek

blsnelling said:


> That 064 blew my mind when I got to run it!


It does most people. I don't know what Tree Monkey did but he did it good. I could be an 064 salesman with that saw. It is my favorite saw of mine to run.


----------



## blsnelling

Was that your 046 as well?


----------



## andydodgegeek

blsnelling said:


> Was that your 046 as well?


Nope. I don't have an 046.


----------



## maulhead

Well, I made it home last night around 9:00 pm mountain time. It was great meeting you Redbull, and everyone else. Wish we had more time, so much going on, saws & people, just a lot to jam into one day. Maybe next year you can make it to the Iowa GTG, I plan to be there again!

I'm sure you will still have things to test be then, LOL 

It was a good & fair test, with both operators each running the saws. 

As for the whole 40:1 vs 32:1 Belray in the ported saw, the test results show, it cuts faster with the 40:1, not sure about longevity or durability, but as far as time goes, it cuts faster with the 40:1, the throttle was also noticeably crisper, and more responsive, not that it was dog on 32:1, but when you compare the two it was more responsive.


----------



## maulhead

andydodgegeek said:


> It does most people. I don't know what Tree Monkey did but he did it good. I could be an 064 salesman with that saw. It is my favorite saw of mine to run.



Yes,, either you or Hedgerow could be a salesman with the Tree Monkey 064! I thought about those all the way home, yes, I'm going to be on the hunt for a 064  thanks to you two guys!!


----------



## bikemike

andydodgegeek said:


> Didn't read the whole thread but I was at the Iowa GTG and the one thing I can say for certain is my Treemonkeyed 064 with 6 month + old gas mixed at 32:1 with amsoil saber took 1st place in your oil test. I will not change what I am doing.


Small world andy. I work with your brother in law Marve with blue chip


----------



## bikemike

So are you guys bumbed out the stock saws are more powerful than a ported saw with more oil lol lmfao


----------



## bwalker

maulhead said:


> Well, I made it home last night around 9:00 pm mountain time. It was great meeting you Redbull, and everyone else. Wish we had more time, so much going on, saws & people, just a lot to jam into one day. Maybe next year you can make it to the Iowa GTG, I plan to be there again!
> 
> I'm sure you will still have things to test be then, LOL
> 
> It was a good & fair test, with both operators each running the saws.
> 
> As for the whole 40:1 vs 32:1 Belray in the ported saw, the test results show, it cuts faster with the 40:1, not sure about longevity or durability, but as far as time goes, it cuts faster with the 40:1, the throttle was also noticeably crisper, and more responsive, not that it was dog on 32:1, but when you compare the two it was more responsive.


The tests show H1R has negative effects on combustion. I said that about 50 pages ago...


----------



## KenJax Tree

bikemike said:


> So are you guys bumbed out the stock saws are more powerful than a ported saw with more oil lol lmfao


I'm not ....i don't own a ported saw so it don't matter to me which is faster. I'll still use 40:1 Lucas or Maxima Formula K2/Super M regardless of what is found here.


----------



## DexterDay

blsnelling said:


> Was that your 046 as well?



The one video was labeled wrong I believe. Should all be fixed now.

Andy's 064 was one, Matt's 064, then my Mastermind 460, and Jrsdws Treemonkey 460. Those 064's are fast..

Wish we did this test before I bought this. LOL. Arrived at my door today








I may have to run a few tests of my own now..


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> The tests show H1R has negative effects on combustion. I said that about 50 pages ago...



Although I suspect you're right, it didn't even do that. The only thing it proved is that saw makes more power on that oil at 40:1. Other oils would have to be tested to prove that H1-R behaves differently than other oils. You'd also have to baseline the performance of the ported saw over stock, using the exact same mix. That was not done either. No controls were employed in the execution of this test. Therefore, we're only able to make less than sure *assumptions* from the results.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Man that thing is sanded down!!! Lol!!!


The picture was more to show the big end of the rod. Notice anything ?


----------



## porsche965

andydodgegeek said:


> Didn't read the whole thread but I was at the Iowa GTG and the one thing I can say for certain is my Treemonkeyed 064 with 6 month + old gas mixed at 32:1 with amsoil saber took 1st place in your oil test. I will not change what I am doing.



Nope. He used Amsoil....disqualification. No Body likes Amsoil! Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'd like to put Saber up against any oil in this thread at 100:1 and see which saw blows first with a zip tied trigger. Any takers? Stock saws brand new. ?? Wouldn't that tell all of which oil is the strongest? I mean c'mon, any oil can hold up at 32:1. Just saying. I like extremes.

That was a very good running 064 Tree Monkey.


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> The picture was more to show the big end of the rod. Notice anything ?


Looks like someone took a torch to that end to me


----------



## Ron660

jakewells said:


> we all need to go to honduras and purchase a new 61 and 262xp
> they still sell them there.


 WOW 288 too. I use to date a girl from Honduras. Maybe I need to call her.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Looks like someone took a torch to that end to me


It sure don't look good.
Sometimes these guys have crank bearing issues, (this one got real hot at least one time) and wanting to have a good amount of oil on whatever is left of the main bearings leads guys to run more oil and consider the marginal difference in power loss or gain as a secondary consideration.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> not buying the whole certified oil thing. sorry. stihl ultra is certified and it's dirty as crap. I've ran it in my saws for years at 40:1 , 45:1 and 50:1. DIRTY no matter what. Have heard from several people it's even worse at 32:1.


Stihl HP Ultra is JASO-FB. The lowest certification on JASO ratings.


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> The picture was more to show the big end of the rod. Notice anything ?


Ya the connecting rod bottom bearing has been way too hot


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Stihl HP Ultra is JASO-FB. The lowest certification on JASO ratings.


If that's true that's scarry...


----------



## maulhead

DexterDay said:


> The one video was labeled wrong I believe. Should all be fixed now.
> 
> Andy's 064 was one, Matt's 064, then my Mastermind 460, and Jrsdws Treemonkey 460. Those 064's are fast..
> 
> Wish we did this test before I bought this. LOL. Arrived at my door today
> 
> View attachment 421304
> 
> View attachment 421305
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may have to run a few tests of my own now..



Nice saw, and congrats!!

For what is is worth, IMO only,,

661's are for big wood. They were not made for cookie cutting at a GTG, in 24" Oak against a 460. 

The 661's are not speed saws for that small wood, they are torque saws for big wood.

The 661 are made for wood like this big 50 something inch piece of Elm, that is what they live for, and this is were they will leave a 460 in the saw chips...




get ya a 36" bar, and go after that big ash you were telling me about


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> If that's true that's scarry...


Its true. Myself and ron660 researched oils a yr and a half ago and found ultra to be fb


----------



## porsche965

I can't run mine hard enough in wood like that. The 661s with the Mtronic system love Goonies! Great saw right out of the box. Great value at $1075 in Ohio with a 20"bar.


----------



## DexterDay

maulhead said:


> Nice saw, and congrats!!
> 
> For what is is worth, IMO only,,
> 
> 661's are for big wood. They were not made for cookie cutting at a GTG, in 24" Oak against a 460.
> 
> The 661's are not speed saws for that small wood, they are torque saws for big wood.
> 
> The 661 are made for wood like this big 50 something inch piece of Elm, that is what they live for, and this is were they will leave a 460 in the saw chips...
> 
> View attachment 421307
> 
> 
> get ya a 36" bar, and go after that big ash you were telling me about



I agree whole heartedly. . And that ash tree doesn't stand a chance! 

Nice to meet you. We both came from 10 + hrs away to meet. I hope you enjoy that 461! It's a good saw.


----------



## Del_

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Mike have u used one of the 54 big bores on a 181 se?


Nope. I like the 52mm bore myself.


----------



## mdavlee

Wouldn't the best test be to make 3 cuts in a row and kill the saw in the end of the 3rd cut and pull the muffler and see how much oil is there? Small impact would get the muffler off in 90 seconds or so tops


----------



## Effs

I have used h1r oil for years, mostly at 50/1. What I have used it in is 50cc, 80cc,106cc and150cc engines, these engines are mfg by 3w in Germany all for radio controll aircraft. They run at 6000 rpm in summer heat. My exsperience has been almost o carbine buildup and lots of lube on internal parts. It's the only oil I will use in all my 2 strokes


----------



## maulhead

DexterDay said:


> I agree whole heartedly. . And that ash tree doesn't stand a chance!
> 
> Nice to meet you. We both came from 10 + hrs away to meet. I hope you enjoy that 461! It's a good saw.



It was great meeting you as well & thanks for the saw! Very happy with it, I can see sending my 441 to a foster home now  Got home last night and after I unpacked the truck and shower'd, I stood outside and fired up the 461, just to listen to it, and smiled ear to ear, what a great saw!!

Did you see the results, of the 441 vs 461, 28" bar, same chain & same wood, 31.9 to 22.9 

Even Redbull ran the 461 and smiled and said, it makes me want it back now, I bet LOL


----------



## blsnelling

Del_ said:


> http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


Here's an interesting quote from that article...the opposite of what's been said on the forum here.

"One of the things you should do, is run high octane gas with any two-stroke mix. When all of the two strokes (the old days) were developed, they all used Castrol petroleum oil at a 20:1 ratio and found that 92 octane gas had *the octane reduced to 72 with presence of that much oil*. Modern oils won’t affect the fuel quite as much, but if you started with 86 or 87 octane regular fuel, you can see where you’ll end with a very low octane mix. "


----------



## nitehawk55

^^ that is correct . 

Hell , some should try mixing the 30 grade motor oil at 16:1...hahaha !


----------



## porsche965

maulhead said:


> It was great meeting you as well & thanks for the saw! Very happy with it, I can see sending my 441 to a foster home now  Got home last night and after I unpacked the truck and shower'd, I stood outside and fired up the 461, just to listen to it, and smiled ear to ear, what a great saw!!
> 
> Did you see the results, of the 441 vs 461, 28" bar, same chain & same wood, 31.9 to 22.9
> 
> Even Redbull ran the 461 and smiled and said, it makes me want it back now, I bet LOL



Is that a ported 461? They are strong saws. Little brother to the 661.


----------



## KG441c

Del_ said:


> http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html


I quoted that exact article 2x in this thread already and seems no one got much from it? Bwalker said the article was pretty much hogwash


----------



## maulhead

porsche965 said:


> Is that a ported 461? They are strong saws. Little brother to the 661.



yes both the 461 & 441 in that test are ported by MM. I love my 441, a lot! I just got the 461 at the GTG over the weekend and ran a tank threw it. What a saw   The 461 was not tuned as high as the 460 were, otherwise it might have pulled a faster time.


----------



## porsche965

Best Octane I can find in non-ethanol around here is 90. For 3.59 a gallon. Bought 21.7 gallons today. That represents a lot of fun!


----------



## porsche965

maulhead said:


> yes both the 461 & 441 in that test are ported by MM. I love my 441, a lot! I just got the 461 at the GTG over the weekend and ran a tank threw it. What a saw   The 461 was not tuned as high as the 460 were, otherwise it might have pulled a faster time.



I'm in the same camp with a ported 441cr. And the Snelled 461 is amazing. Twists 4 stroking north of 15k and loads of torque. Almost a freak of a 461r and it's still getting broke in. 42.6:1 If I didn't like my 661 so well I'd run the two with 28" bars and I think the 461 would have the 661.

The 441c was one of the first 441c saws sold in the U.S. Picked it up 1/28/11. Ported shortly later.

If my Ex would have been as trouble free and happy to work as this 441 saw I'd still be married to her lol.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Here's an interesting quote from that article...the opposite of what's been said on the forum here.
> 
> "One of the things you should do, is run high octane gas with any two-stroke mix. When all of the two strokes (the old days) were developed, they all used Castrol petroleum oil at a 20:1 ratio and found that 92 octane gas had *the octane reduced to 72 with presence of that much oil*. Modern oils won’t affect the fuel quite as much, but if you started with 86 or 87 octane regular fuel, you can see where you’ll end with a very low octane mix. "


I don't think I buy that octane reduction theory..at least not with modern oils.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I quoted that exact article 2x in this thread already and seems no one got much from it? Bwalker said the article was pretty much hogwash


Its not complete garbage but it's pretty dated and I don't buy the octane being reduced at all with modern oils.


----------



## Stihl 041S

nitehawk55 said:


> ^^ that is correct .
> 
> Hell , some should try mixing the 30 grade motor oil at 16:1...hahaha !



My British Seagull Outboard is 10:1. 30 Weight. 
Non-Detergent only.


----------



## porsche965

So, by the end of this week I bet there are some new bottles of oils sitting on workbenches around the country. Very anxious to hear what everyone thinks of their new choices or tests they run.


----------



## bikemike

porsche965 said:


> Nope. He used Amsoil....disqualification. No Body likes Amsoil! Sorry, couldn't resist.
> 
> I'd like to put Saber up against any oil in this thread at 100:1 and see which saw blows first with a zip tied trigger. Any takers? Stock saws brand new. ?? Wouldn't that tell all of which oil is the strongest? I mean c'mon, any oil can hold up at 32:1. Just saying. I like extremes.
> 
> That was a very good running 064 Tree Monkey.


Yeah he built a bad azz 026


----------



## mdavlee

I've run everything but yamalube. I'll probably stick with klotz when I run out of the K2 and 800.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

think i will stick to this since it keeps my saw buddys from getting into my gas can.
32:1 with 87 corn gas


----------



## porsche965

That's what I call balls!

But if it works what the heck


----------



## Deleted member 83629

the amish loggers praise it highly and they run 440,660,088 saws
they tell me they burn 30-40 gallons of mix per month mixed at 40:1


----------



## porsche965

No less than 40:1 with that stuff!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im pulling your chain i actually use what ever the dealer has. i snagged me a gallon of husqvarna xp oil for 38$ 
im using it this month.


----------



## DexterDay

maulhead said:


> It was great meeting you as well & thanks for the saw! Very happy with it, I can see sending my 441 to a foster home now  Got home last night and after I unpacked the truck and shower'd, I stood outside and fired up the 461, just to listen to it, and smiled ear to ear, what a great saw!!
> 
> Did you see the results, of the 441 vs 461, 28" bar, same chain & same wood, 31.9 to 22.9
> 
> Even Redbull ran the 461 and smiled and said, it makes me want it back now, I bet LOL



The 441 is a great saw. But after owning all 3 of them (441, 460, and 461). I will only recommend the 460/461.

9 seconds faster is a LOT!!


----------



## cuttinties

Logs cut with 32:1 Lucas today. No paychecks were harmed in these pictures.







And another 4000 Bd feet





Oh wait we've got some ready to skid in the morning


----------



## porsche965

Yes that is. 9 seconds that is.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

cuttinties said:


> Logs cut with 32:1 Lucas today. No paychecks were harmed in these pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And another 4000 Bd feet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wait we've got some ready to skid in the morning


nice coat hanger.


----------



## cuttinties

jakewells said:


> nice coat hanger.


Thanks


----------



## SCHallenger

porsche965 said:


> Best Octane I can find in non-ethanol around here is 90. For 3.59 a gallon. Bought 21.7 gallons today. That represents a lot of fun!



VP has a new canned fuel called ProMax which is 97 octane with a 50:1 ratio.


----------



## redfin

bwalker said:


> Brad, I see you can still by Mobil 2R on ebay shipped from the UK. That's the ultimate!


Do you have a link? I can't find it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i tried the mobil 2 cycle oil once the clear color scared me.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> So, by the end of this week I bet there are some new bottles of oils sitting on workbenches around the country. Very anxious to hear what everyone thinks of their new choices or tests they run.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
smells good enuf to eat YUMMY!


----------



## KenJax Tree

It gets to be too much for me after a few minutes


----------



## Deleted member 83629

better than stihl ultra i smelled like a burning soap and plastics after being in it all day


----------



## blsnelling

redfin said:


> Do you have a link? I can't find it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mobil-Racin...740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2337450204


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> Stihl HP Ultra is JASO-FB. The lowest certification on JASO ratings.




Has the JASO rating on the back of the bottle.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im sure the stihl orange bottle is worse than the ultra.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mobil-Racin...740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2337450204


Viscosity is almost identical to H1R.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Viscosity is almost identical to H1R.


Got a link for that info?


----------



## AKDoug

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421383
> Stihl HP Ultra is JASO-FB. The lowest certification on JASO ratings.
> Has the JASO rating on the back of the bottle.


Not quite true. FC and FD do not represent increased lubricity, so it's not fair to say that FC and FD are actually "higher".

*JASO FA* – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.

*JASO FB* – improved requirements over FA with regards to lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.

*JASO FC* – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher requirements over FB with regards to detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.

*JASO FD* - same as FC, except with far higher detergency requirement.


----------



## bwalker

AKDoug said:


> Not quite true. FC and FD do not represent increased lubricity, so it's not fair to say that FC and FD are actually "higher".
> 
> *JASO FA* – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FB* – improved requirements over FA with regards to lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FC* – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher requirements over FB with regards to detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FD* - same as FC, except with far higher detergency requirement.


Cleanliness is very important. If lubricity were the only issue we would all be running castor oil at 16:1.


----------



## AKDoug

Honestly, I take dozens of saws a month apart that only run Stihl Ultra. I can't imagine an oil burning much cleaner. It stinks, but I've never heard anyone complaining of how clean Ultra is.

BTW, it says "meets JASO FB" it doesn't show that it actually has been tested. The only Stihl oil that I know has been tested was Stihl Super as of April 1 2015.. and it scored FD.

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf


----------



## KG441c

AKDoug said:


> Not quite true. FC and FD do not represent increased lubricity, so it's not fair to say that FC and FD are actually "higher".
> 
> *JASO FA* – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FB* – improved requirements over FA with regards to lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FC* – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher requirements over FB with regards to detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FD* - same as FC, except with far higher detergency requirement.


What exactly is exhaust system blocking requirements referring to?


----------



## KG441c

Looks like Stihl has experienced and expect carbon buildup with their product and oil?


----------



## Ron660

AKDoug said:


> Not quite true. FC and FD do not represent increased lubricity, so it's not fair to say that FC and FD are actually "higher".
> 
> *JASO FA* – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FB* – improved requirements over FA with regards to lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FC* – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher requirements over FB with regards to detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> 
> *JASO FD* - same as FC, except with far higher detergency requirement.


 
JASO-FA has been eliminated. Only FB - FD are current standards. True, FB - FD meets the minimum lubricity standard but not in detergency which represents engine "cleanliness" and evaluates piston ring sticking. To meet the Detergency tests for FB and FC it's a one hour test. To meet FD, it's a 3 hour test. Why use a "dirtier" oil in an expensive pro model saw......especially a ported one. Let's compare prices of the Stihl HP Ultra oil (JASO-FB) and the oil I'm using Motul 800 off-road (exceeds JASO-FD). Cheapest price I saw on Amazon this morning for a 6-pack of 2.6oz Stihl HP Ultra was $14. One liter of Motul was $16. That would equal over $30 a liter for Stihl oil! That's nearly double the price for a lower JASO certified oil.


----------



## KG441c

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...3/?temp_hash=fff7e3ba418a974bfea8dadf99cdaded
This is the supporting link to Ron660s statement


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What exactly is exhaust system blocking requirements referring to?


Exhaust port blocking. Test is ran at something like a 5-10:1 ratio .


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> JASO-FA has been eliminated. Only FB - FD are current standards. True, FB - FD meets the minimum lubricity standard but not in detergency which represents engine "cleanliness" and evaluates piston ring sticking. To meet the Detergency tests for FB and FC it's a one hour test. To meet FD, it's a 3 hour test. Why use a "dirtier" oil in an expensive pro model saw......especially a ported one. Let's compare prices of the Stihl HP Ultra oil (JASO-FB) and the oil I'm using Motul 800 off-road (exceeds JASO-FD). Cheapest price I saw on Amazon this morning for a 6-pack of 2.6oz Stihl HP Ultra was $14. One liter of Motul was $16. That would equal over $30 a liter for Stihl oil! That's nearly double the price for a lower JASO certified oil.


OEM oil is definatly a profit center for the major *** companies.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> OEM oil is definatly a profit center for the major *** companies.


I agree 100%.


----------



## hacknstack

bwalker said:


> Brad, I see you can still by Mobil 2R on ebay shipped from the UK. That's the ultimate!



Is this NOS, or is it still in production overseas? I'd like to try it but if the supply is close to exhaustion I'll have to find something else anyway.


----------



## KG441c

KG441c said:


> I agree 100%.


Bwalker how do u like the citgo supergard air cooled? I see they have one thats fc rated and one thats registered citgo supergard air cooled thats fd rated


----------



## super3

Mobil is ####in up. Bring back 2t dammit!


----------



## KG441c

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...9/?temp_hash=5b85eacf0dd94cdbcb25759253419124


----------



## KenJax Tree

No Maxima oil on the list


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> No Maxima oil on the list


It cost the manufacturer 40000 to have their oil tested and certified on the list. From my understanding that list is current as apr.1st 2015. Oil manufacturers are not required to participate


----------



## KenJax Tree

Super M is rated FD it says on the bottle but K2 doesn't have a rating


----------



## Marshy

JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel. Feel free to look up you oil, it has 18 pages of oils and their ratings.
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/


----------



## KG441c

Marshy said:


> JASO Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel
> http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/


Thats the same place Ron660 and myself downloaded the jaso testing procedure and list from


----------



## KG441c

If it doesnt have a square box with 9 numbers and letters with a large fb,fc,or fd in the box it hasnt actually participated and been certified by JASO. Manufacturers can print meets or exceeds on the back all they want but if they arent on the confirmed Jaso list its not certified


----------



## Marshy

Husqvarna Low Smoke is FD rated and that's what I use and like. Synthetic blend and a littler cheaper than the liquid gold you guys use. Gallon cost a little north of $30. Im going to order a gallon this summer.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lucas is less than $30


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Bwalker how do u like the citgo supergard air cooled? I see they have one thats fc rated and one thats registered citgo supergard air cooled thats fd rated


It seems decent, certainly no less quality than Husky silver bottle.


----------



## Marshy

KenJax Tree said:


> Lucas is less than $30


FD rated? They are not on JASO list of certified oils...


----------



## KG441c

Marshy said:


> FD rated? They are not on JASO list of certified oils...


Its not rated or certified but only claims to meet or exceed jaso ratings


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Lucas is less than $30


I have seen it locally at O'Reilly , bug I'm not keen on using an injector oil.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> FD rated? They are not on JASO list of certified oils...


I believe they claim "meets jaso" or some such verbage. Means it hasn't been tested and actually certified, which doesn't mean it's junk in and of itself.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Meets ISO GD and JASO FD
Exceeds API TC


----------



## KenJax Tree

There is a LOT of good oils not and that list and most of those nobody has ever heard of.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> It cost the manufacturer 40000 to have their oil tested and certified on the list. From my understanding that list is current as apr.1st 2015. Oil manufacturers are not required to participate


I was supprised to see Klotz had an oil on the list.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Meets ISO GD and JASO FD
> Exceeds API TC


Yep. Marketing stradegy but not on the list. It is not certified. Im like bwalker still doesnt mean its not top notch. Just means lucas didnt pay the 40000 Yen to certify it


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> There is a LOT of good oils not and that list and most of those nobody has ever heard of.


Keep in mind alot of the oils you refer to as good would not pass those tests. Some would if course, but oils like 800t, r50, H1r etc would not.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Yep. Marketing stradegy but not on the list. It is not certified. Im like bwalker still doesnt mean its not top notch. Just means lucas didnt pay the 40000 Yen to certify it


With how small the two cycle market has become it makes little sense to certify for most companies. Only one of the Japanese manufactures still makes two cycle motor cycles for first world markets.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> With how small the two cycle market has become it makes little sense to certify for most companies. Only one of the Japanese manufactures still makes two cycle motor cycles for first world markets.


I agree and doesnt look like we have a surefire way to determine oil quality the way companies can claim anything on the bottle for marketing


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> With how small the two cycle market has become it makes little sense to certify for most companies. Only one of the Japanese manufactures still makes two cycle motor cycles for first world markets.


Ktm still produces them I think


----------



## KenJax Tree

I just go by what my eyes tell me when i pull something apart


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I just go by what my eyes tell me when i pull something apart


U gotta run 50 weight 100% ester oil or its gonna blow your stuff up!!!


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ktm still produces them I think


Yes and they sell a ton of them. In fact they sell alot more than the Japanese brands by a huge margin.
IIRC KTM reccomends a 60:1 oil ratio.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my eyes see a well lubed engine with little to no carbon build up. ports are squeaky clean.
cross hatch is still there and the rings show little to no wear according to my micrometer.
using lucas at 32:1


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Yes and they sell a ton of them. In fact they sell alot more than the Japanese brands by a huge margin.


My son ran a ktm65 that was awesome!! Ran Yamalube 2r and Honda hp2 in it. Parts for thoso KTMs r astronomical!!


----------



## Ron660

Motul 710 is JASO-FD with a viscosity very close to Stihl hp ultra. Anybody using Husky XP oil? It's also a FD certification.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i use to have a polaris express 300 2 stroke about 6 yrs ago and all i ran in it was pennzoil air cooled oil at 40:1
i ran it till a druggy stole it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Ron660 said:


> Motul 710 is JASO-FD with a viscosity very close to Stihl hp ultra. Anybody using Husky XP oil? It's also a FD certification.


i used it a few yrs back because it was good oil but now it is expensive oil.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> i used it a few yrs back because it was good oil but now it is expensive oil.


They gotta make up thoso 40000 yen they paid to certify it!! Lol!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i will keep buying lucas because a 1 gallon jug of oil only lasts me 5 weeks 
26 per gallon for lucas
45 per gallon for husky xp


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Keep in mind alot of the oils you refer to as good would not pass those tests. Some would if course, but oils like 800t, r50, H1r etc would not.



I spoke with a Motul Rep. over a year ago when Keith (KG441) and I were trying to decide on a 2-cycle oil for our ported chainsaws. The Rep. said 710 and 800 use the same base oil but they use an improved detergent (additive package) in the 800. If this is true, the 800 series would certify as FD since 710 is. He also recommended 710 over 800 in my chainsaws. I've been using 800 off-road with great results but it might be overkill in film strength. I need to test both in my ported, non-mtronics, saws.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I spoke with a Motul Rep. over a year ago when Keith (KG441) and I were trying to decide on a 2-cycle oil for our ported chainsaws. The Rep. said 710 and 800 use the same base oil but they use an improved detergent (additive package) in the 800. If this is true, the 800 series would certify as FD since 710 is. He also recommended 710 over 800 in my chainsaws. I've been using 800 off-road with great results but it might be overkill in film strength. I need to test both in my ported, non-mtronics, saws.


Looking at the msds it's easy to see this isn't true. They are night and day different.
It seems alot of you guys look at running these high film strength oils as overkill with no downside, but there are downsides.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Looking at the msds it's easy to see this isn't true. They are night and day different.
> It seems alot of you guys look at running these high film strength oils as overkill with no downside, but there are downsides.


That's why I would like to compare 710, 800, and a few chainsaw FD oils. If 800 is overkill, Klotz R50 is even more overkill. Downside....performance?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Looking at the msds it's easy to see this isn't true. They are night and day different.
> It seems alot of you guys look at running these high film strength oils as overkill with no downside, but there are downsides.


Best I remember the Rep. saying is go with the 800, rather than 710, if your 2-stroke has power valves. Motorcycles have them but chainsaws doesn't?? The 800 has a better detergent for keeping them clean. Guess I need to try 800 vs 710 vs Husky XP 2-cycle oil at 32:1 and 40:1.......performance and film strength.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i tried the 800 in my trimmers and blowers and i noted the equipment needs to warm up otherwise it slobbers i think this oil has a hard time burning in a cold engine.
the oil must have a flash point of around 500 degrees.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i go by first hand experience and word of mouth by forum members not by a certification on a label 
because before i used this site i used supertech 2 cycle oil in everything i own because my buddys used it with out problems.
they are people who spends a lot of time out on the water or run a lawn care biz that use that oil.

the lucas i use for 9$ quart does just as well as those voodoo oils that cost 20-25$ liter.


----------



## Ron660

jakewells said:


> i tried the 800 in my trimmers and blowers and i noted the equipment needs to warm up otherwise it slobbers i think this oil has a hard time burning in a cold engine.
> the oil must have a flash point of around 500 degrees.


The reason may be due to it's lower viscosity index (VI) . A higher VI, like Motul 710, may not show that trait. 710 is a "thinner" oil than 800.


----------



## KG441c

I agree with bwalker in the part of application. 50 weight oil vs 20 weight. I think about if my car calls for 5w20 am I gonna use 15w50?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Best I remember the Rep. saying is go with the 800, rather than 710, if your 2-stroke has power valves. Motorcycles have them but chainsaws doesn't?? The 800 has a better detergent for keeping them clean. Guess I need to try 800 vs 710 vs Husky XP 2-cycle oil at 32:1 and 40:1.......performance and film strength.


800 has a a really high ash content for a two cycle oil, meaning that it has alot of zinc and calcium antiwear/detergent additives. While at face value this sounds like a good thing, mettalic ash is what causes plug fouling and pre ignition causing deposits.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> The reason may be due to it's lower viscosity index (VI) . A higher VI, like Motul 710, may not show that trait. 710 is a "thinner" oil than 800.


It really has nothing to do with that. VI index is resistance to change in viscosity with changes in temp.
800 drools because by its nature it has a high end point(forget flash point!)meaning it takes a lot of heat to combust fully. It will not run clean in most chainsaws.


----------



## KG441c

Bwalker how would u feel about running thoso heavier oils @ 40:1?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> That's why I would like to compare 710, 800, and a few chainsaw FD oils. If 800 is overkill, Klotz R50 is even more overkill. Downside....performance?


The downside is the things done to increase film strength also make the oil cause deposits. There is no holy grail or free lunch.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Bwalker how would u feel about running thoso heavier oils @ 40:1?


I am opposed to it. When.picking an oil it should run clean at 32:1 or even lower ratios. If it doesn't it's the wrong oil for the application.
Bearings like oil in quantity not quality and bearing failure is.common in many newer EPA compliant saws.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I am opposed to it. When.picking an oil it should run clean at 32:1 or even lower ratios. If it doesn't it's the wrong oil for the application.
> Bearings like oil in quantity not quality and bearing failure is.common in many newer EPA compliant saws.


What would be your response to folks here claiming to run these heavier oils with 0 buildup? Just not enough run time?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Ron660 said:


> The reason may be due to it's lower viscosity index (VI) . A higher VI, like Motul 710, may not show that trait. 710 is a "thinner" oil than 800.


it did smell good after using it a while not overpowering like r50 which gives me a headache after an hr.


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> What would be your response to folks here claiming to run these heavier oils with 0 buildup? Just not enough run time?


Could be, also could be that saw is ran under heavy load at high rpm's. 

All this really boils down to educating yourself and doing what you feel is appropriate for you. If you know the positives and negatives, dealing with them is fairly easy, and less expensive than a new top end.


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> What would be your response to folks here claiming to run these heavier oils with 0 buildup? Just not enough run time?


Could be, also could be that saw is ran under heavy load at high rpm's. 

All this really boils down to educating yourself and doing what you feel is appropriate for you. If you know the positives and negatives, dealing with them is fairly easy, and less expensive than a new top end.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i ran R50 for 3 yrs in my stuff at 40:1 without any build up or crud never fouled a plug either everything had a nice coating of oil inside and looked spotless 
of course i run a side business of mowing 30 yards per week and ran my stuff under load for hours on end 5 days a week and never had a problem 
except the smell was getting to me.


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> What would be your response to folks here claiming to run these heavier oils with 0 buildup? Just not enough run time?


Could be, also could be that saw is ran under heavy load at high rpm's. 

All this really boils down to educating yourself and doing what you feel is appropriate for you. If you know the positives and negatives, dealing with them is fairly easy, and less expensive than a new top end.


----------



## Andyshine77

Sorry for the extra posts, the site is acting wacky, can't even delete the extra posts.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What would be your response to folks here claiming to run these heavier oils with 0 buildup? Just not enough run time?


Judging by the pictures posted little run time coupled with running too rich.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Could be, also could be that saw is ran under heavy load at high rpm's.
> 
> All this really boils down to educating yourself and doing what you feel is appropriate for you. If you know the positives and negatives, dealing with them is fairly easy, and less expensive than a new top end.


One other point. There seems to be the idea that running these high temp oils provides some amount of insurance. In general this isn't true. If you run a saw too lean, you will toast it, period and regardless of what oil you use.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> One other point. There seems to be the idea that running these high temp oils provides some amount of insurance. In general this isn't true. If you run a saw too lean, you will toast it, period and regardless of what oil you use.



Some may think just that. Without proper amount of fuel, you lack the proper amount of oil. With that said the shear strength of oils like R50, 800 is undeniable, and is what I prefer to use in some applications, mostly my saws. My blowers, trimmers all get 50:1 Motul 800 off road, I see no excessive buildup whatever. I believe the dispersants in Motul's oils work very well, even with all the ZDP.


----------



## bwalker

Yea, it's undeniable that the higher viscosity oils have more film strength. But in a saw you never use this capability.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Some may think just that. Without proper amount of fuel, you lack the proper amount of oil. With that said the shear strength of oils like R50, 800 is undeniable, and is what I prefer to use in some applications, mostly my saws. My blowers, trimmers all get 50:1 Motul 800 off road, I see no excessive buildup whatever. I believe the dispersants in Motul's oils work very well, even with all the ZDP.


800t uses a calcium based detergent. Nitrogen based dispersents are used in outboard oils and work pretty poorly at the temps an air cooled motor reaches.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've tried using Motul 800 and my climb saws hate it, it just makes a black sticky mess. They get a quite a bit of idle time in between cuts sometimes so im sure that has something to do with it.


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> Could be, also could be that saw is ran under heavy load at high rpm's.
> 
> All this really boils down to educating yourself and doing what you feel is appropriate for you. If you know the positives and negatives, dealing with them is fairly easy, and less expensive than a new top end.





Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry for the extra posts, the site is acting wacky, can't even delete the extra posts.


Who cares ....... its such a great post it should be repeated a few more times.  

I liked each one !!


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> Could be, also could be that saw is ran under heavy load at high rpm's.





KenJax Tree said:


> I've tried using Motul 800 and my climb saws hate it, it just makes a black sticky mess. They get a quite a bit of idle time in between cuts sometimes so im sure that has something to do with it.



It sure does, and here is where the mileage varies.

Post up a picture of a saw run hard for 12 tanks with a "good oil", and you get "hardly run" (first pic)
Post up a pic of a saw run hard for 12 tanks with Ultra and you see burned pepperoni pizza. (Second pic)


Fuel quality and run conditions play a real large part in how each users experience with any particular oil is

An idled saw will spit out oil @ 32:1
A saw run hard will be dry @ 32:1


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> It sure does, and here is where the mileage varies.
> 
> Post up a picture of a saw run hard for 12 tanks with a "good oil", and you get "hardly run"
> Post up a pic of a saw run hard for 12 tanks with Ultra and you see burned pepperoni pizza.
> 
> 
> Fuel quality and run conditions play a real large part in how each users experience with any particular oil is
> 
> An idled saw will spit out oil @ 32:1
> A saw run hard will be dry @ 32:1


BINGO!!! Kind of like a trail bike vs a race bike. They require different oils at different ratios.


----------



## porsche965

I'll be at my Dealer tomorrow and will ask how many bearing failures they have a year. I'm curious. Either in or out of warranty. 

I wonder how many AS members that use 32:1 have actually had a bearing failure, since this is the primary reason everyone talks about running way more oil that OE specifies. Any pictures?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I wonder how many bearing failures at 50:1, likely not many


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder how many bearing failures at 50:1, likely not many


Ive seen one on a ms261 when I got it but dont have a clue what oil or ratio was ran before I got the saw


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> ...
> *Post up a pic of a saw run hard for 12 tanks with Ultra and you see burned pepperoni pizza. (Second pic)*
> 
> 
> Fuel quality and run conditions play a real large part in how each users experience with any particular oil is
> 
> An idled saw will spit out oil @ 32:1
> A saw run hard will be dry @ 32:1


I wonder what it would look like if you ha mixed it to the "proper" ratio of 42:1 or even 50:1..? 
I bet the outcome would be different, in a good way.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder how many bearing failures at 50:1, likely not many


Also saw another on a husky 262xp that had been ran at 50to1 with Stihl orange bottle and silver bottle


----------



## porsche965

What year would the 262xp have been made? Any idea of hours on the unit? I heard they are good saws.


----------



## porsche965

Does anyone know if bearings give any kind of warnings in chainsaws before they fail? Vibrations? Drop in power? Noise?

Are bearing failures always catastrophic? Meaning taking out the whole top end.


----------



## KenJax Tree

You gotta consider that AS is .0000000000001% of the users out there and how many people just use 87 octane E10 that is a year old and whatever oil they can find.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> What year would the 262xp have been made? Any idea of hours on the unit? I heard they are good saws.


1991 on the one I owned. Excellent saw. Crisp throttle


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> I wonder what it would look like if you ha mixed it to the "proper" ratio of 42:1 or even 50:1..?
> I bet the outcome would be different, in a good way.


I bet a different fuel (like VP SEF) at the same ratio would have looked much better as well


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Like if you run 32:1 - 2r & 32:1 800 ...the engine is getting the same amount of oil. Couldn't be further from the truth!!!
> 
> Engine is getting *less* oil with 2r and *more* oil with 800 if you run the same mix ratio. for example 32:1.


How do you know what affects those "non-oil" components have on the over all lubricating qualities of any given oil?


----------



## Raganr

Interesting info in this thread. 

bwalker, maybe I missed it, but what is your preferred oil for a woods ported chainsaw.

I know this is an oil thread but how the does the fuel selection factor into all of this. I always assumed, fuel choice mostly affects performance and oil choice mostly affects lube/protection. Sounds like they both affect each other but to a lesser extent.

Going with my long standing practice of assuming the opposite of what the EPA says is good for my saw, is actually good for my saw, I run 32:1 mix.


----------



## blsnelling

Unless you're getting some exotic fuel, it has very little affect on performance. I have tested and documented that myself.


----------



## Raganr

Interesting. I tried switching from canned fuel to ethanol free pump gas and there was a noticeable difference in saw behavior. Not sure how it affected performance but it ran rougher warming up and required some carb adjusting.

Going to try this for a while instead of canned Trufuel. Almost out of H1R so trying to decided on a oil to try next


----------



## blsnelling

Canned and E-free fuel will require leaner jetting, but will have little affect on power. The same holds true for most race gas.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> 800 has a a really high ash content for a two cycle oil, meaning that it has alot of zinc and calcium antiwear/detergent additives. While at face value this sounds like a good thing, mettalic ash is what causes plug fouling and pre ignition causing deposits.


My ported 660 using 800 off-road (with Sunoco 110 octane) hasn't shown any deposits or builldup at 32:1. I've only used about two liters but that should be a representative amount to draw a conclusion. Not sure if I've already posted this one.


----------



## blsnelling

The same performance tests need to be done with some of these other oils in order to draw any conclusions. The only thing that has really been proven so far is that *one* oil makes more power with less oil, particularly in *one* model saw. That's not near enough data to draw any kind of conclusions from. Good stuff here, just not near enough yet.


----------



## KenJax Tree

None of this will ever be drawn to any kind of conclusion other than different opinions and assumptions. There are just way to many variables.


----------



## blsnelling

blsnelling said:


> The same performance tests need to be done with some of these other oils in order to draw any conclusions. The only thing that has really been proven so far is that *one* oil makes more power with less oil, particularly in *one* model saw. That's not near enough data to draw any kind of conclusions from. Good stuff here, just not near enough yet.


When you're done with all that, the only thing we really have is performance indicators. We've still yet to test cleanliness and protection. 

Cleanliness is problematic because it will vary GREATLY based on how the saw is used, how it's tuned, if it's ported, and the kind of fuel used.

I'm not sure how to best test the protection factor. I think most all of us would agree that most ANY oil will provide a very long life, probably even at 50:1, and for sure at 32:1. Therefore, I believe the best way to test that is through some kind of torture testing.


----------



## MustangMike

Stayed up late last night trying to get through this thread, then IT WOULD NOT LET ME POST, THE SITE WAS DOWN AGAIN!

Ron, nice knife, I thought that is what it was, my Uncle always used to carry a Randall.

After reading everything in this thread, I'm sticking with 93 octane and Saber at 40:1. I see no reason to change.

Regarding oil protection, I think scoring the cylinder is a more likely concern than bearing failure. That is why I choose high test, it is supposed to run cooler.


----------



## blsnelling

MustangMike said:


> Regarding oil protection, I think scoring the cylinder is a more likely concern than bearing failure. That is why I choose high test, it is supposed to run cooler.


On most saws, yes. I wouldn't take my chances on a ported 372 or 390.


----------



## MustangMike

Brad, please clarify, are you stating that you don't think 40:1 is good enough for ported saws? If so, I don't think there has been any evidence of this presented.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> When you're done with all that, the only thing we really have is performance indicators. We've still yet to test cleanliness and protection.
> 
> Cleanliness is problematic because it will vary GREATLY based on how the saw is used, how it's tuned, if it's ported, and the kind of fuel used.
> 
> I'm not sure how to best test the protection factor. I think most all of us would agree that most ANY oil will provide a very long life, probably even at 50:1, and for sure at 32:1. Therefore, I believe the best way to test that is through some kind of torture testing.


The guys on this site that mill can tell us. I know one that prefers Klotz R50 or KL-200 and he's used most of the oils we've talked about.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm still quite uncomfortable with less than 32:1 in a ported saw, most particularly the 372 and 390, and even stock. 32:1 seems to cure that problem. There is plenty of evidence to support that idea. I think Randy might add some other models to that, but not sure. 

I'm beginning to wonder if it depends on the oil. *MAYBE* 40:1 is ideal if using a full ester oil. We haven't proven either way yet. I would rather be safe than sorry though.


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> The guys on this site that mill can tell us. I know one that prefers Klotz R50 or KL-200 and he's used most of the oils we've talked about.


Would you mind summarizing his findings here for us? That's certainly HARD use.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> 800 exceeds jaso-FD how could it be high ash? lol
> 
> ron660's piston looks like chit btw so maybe your right!


Yea Redbull, the inside of my cylinder looks like hell with all those deposits!...lol


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421556
> 
> Yea Redbull, the inside of my cylinder looks like hell with all those deposits!...lol


You're muffler is WET!


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> How do you know what affects those "non-oil" components have on the over all lubricating qualities of any given oil?




working on a better answer than: they are solvents and solvents don't lubricate, they burn. consulting my notes and also emailed belray... dude just sent a reply. holy chit! ok here ya go!!! 

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sir,
Regarding the make up of a typical 2t oil... the non oil components of it... Could you identify them, and what they do or their purpose? 
For example -

what are the additives, what do they do, are they part of the actual oil in the bottle that lubricates?

Same thing with solvents
-----------------------------------------------------------------

*Solvents* are a carrier/filler for 2-stroke premix oils. They serve no purpose other than delivering the oil to the gasoline (which is essentially a solvent itself). Gasoline will typically have more detergency and cleaning ability than the common solvents used in 2-stroke applications. An oil with 20% solvent mixed at 32:1 delivers the exact same amount of oil as a non-solvent oil at 40:1. That’s a 25% decrease in oil than what you think you are delivering to the motor! Solvents also will evaporate from open containers and leave you with a more concentrated container. Even if the cap is on, once the seal is broken on a bottle, it isn’t airtight and solvent will evaporate so there is uncertainty on the actual oil content at that point unless the entire bottle is used right away. There are ways to minimize solvent loss, but most people will just leave the bottle on a shelf in the garage so that isn’t ideal for limiting evaporation.

*Non-lube additives* – antioxidants, anti-rust, detergents. Anti-rust is obvious, anti-oxidants work to protect the oil and the surfaces from oxidizing (oil breakdown and rust). Detergents work to keep the surfaces free of deposits and keep everything clean. These are all crucial components to a 2-stroke oil but don’t directly effect the lubricity of the oil. The more effective and concentrated of these that you can use, the more room there is in the formula to use lubricity additives and base oils. We use highly concentrated and very high quality additives that do not need high treat rates thus leaving room for the effective additives for lubricity. Lubricity contributing additives include anti-wear, extreme pressure, anti-scuff and friction modifiers. I think they are all pretty self explanatory from their names.


----------



## MustangMike

Brad, I respect your point of view, but this is how I see it (and I presume you would view my ported 046 about the same as a 372),

1) using higher test gas will keep the saw cooler
2) increasing the ratio from 50/1 to 40/1 will provide more protection
3) using an oil with a higher viscosity rating than the Stihl oil further increases protection
4) 40/1 seemed to be the sweet spot in performance/protection in Redbull's testing, and if we were not chasing performance, we would not have gotten our saws ported!

I'll post if I have any failures/problems.


----------



## blsnelling

I like that  So now another question, lol. Why add solvents to any oil? I imagine one reason is for injector oils. Any other reason? Simply profitability?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421556
> 
> Yea Redbull, the inside of my cylinder looks like hell with all those deposits!...lol


Do you know how many tanks of fuel /gallons or hours are on this roughly ?


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Do you know how many tanks of fuel /gallons or hours are on this roughly ?


IIRC................. 2 liters


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> IIRC................. 2 liters


Hir was that clean in my one of my saws after a gallon or so of oil through it ,i would like to see the spark plug if possible ,see if it is burning all dry on the white part .


----------



## Mastermind

I got this one Mike. 

Brad is referring to the 372 and the 390 because they are well known to have crankshaft issues. Even stock.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> You're muffler is WET!


 I run my saws like my women, slightly wet!


----------



## Hedgerow

So the Stihl ultra I'm still running in my air compressor has probably lost it's solvents by now...

Good thing.. As it may not have lasted this last 13 years...

Whew... Dodged a bullet there..


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Do you know how many tanks of fuel /gallons or hours are on this roughly ?


 Let me add up all the oil I've used in it: almost two 6-packs of stihl ultra, several bottles of Redmax, a couple of premix bottles of VP, and almost two liters of Motul 800 off-road. Probably around 30 gallons....not a lot.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> I run my saws like my women, slightly wet!


 Just joking I have a wonderful wife. She's a hybrid....good one.


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> Would you mind summarizing his findings here for us? That's certainly HARD use.


I burned 1 gallon of oils last year milling. R50 showed no wear or build up. KL 200 was the same. K2 works great but the fumes are a bit rough. H1R I can't stand and on a couple saws I couldn't get it rich enough for my liking. 800 works good with no build up and will leave a wet piston even if you run out mid cut from a full tank.


----------



## Hedgerow

redbull660 said:


> stihl ultra doesn't have solvents
> 
> http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf


But did they 13 years ago?


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> I burned 1 gallon of oils last year milling. R50 showed no wear or build up. KL 200 was the same. K2 works great but the fumes are a bit rough. H1R I can't stand and on a couple saws I couldn't get it rich enough for my liking. 800 works good with no build up and will leave a wet piston even if up run out mid cut from a full tank.


That's quite the testimonial. Unless there are significant performance gains to be found with a less viscous oil like Motul 710 or Maxima Super M, I see no reason for you to consider anything else. The only other reason I could think of would be the cost factor for someone doing that much cutting all the time.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I burned 1 gallon of oils last year milling. R50 showed no wear or build up. KL 200 was the same. K2 works great but the fumes are a bit rough. H1R I can't stand and on a couple saws I couldn't get it rich enough for my liking. 800 works good with no build up and will leave a wet piston even if up run out mid cut from a full tank.


One of the best experiences/answer I've read on this post.


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> That's quite the testimonial. Unless there are significant performance gains to be found with a less viscous oil like Motul 710 or Maxima Super M, I see no reason for you to consider anything else. The only other reason I could think of would be the cost factor for someone doing that much cutting all the time.


Klotz is cheap. $1 more than lucas so I can't see changing for a $4 /year in mix.

I ran out on a 390 and 395 mid cut and neither scored when running out of fuel. One was with R50 and the other with 800. I'm sure a run from idle at a full tank to empty was plenty heat soaked. I don't even cut the saw off to refuel. It was boiling the bar oil one day when it was 90-94° outside.


----------



## blsnelling

I would love to see your results with 710 & Super M. Obviously what your using works well, but your use would make a good test bed.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> 800 exceeds jaso-FD how could it be high ash? lol
> 
> ron660's piston looks like chit btw so maybe your right!


Do you even know what ash is?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Injector oils they help the viscosity be correct for injection, and they are cheap fillers to increase profits.


They help keep the components blended too.
No one adds them for fillers as solvents are expensive..


----------



## KenJax Tree

You gotta remember the guy answering questions is a Bel Ray tech so anything not in Bel Ray oil is trash.


----------



## KG441c

Just ran a tank of r50 mixed with 1 gal. 110sunoco/[email protected] 50/50 for 98.5 octane @ 32:1 through my 241c. Last several cuts were wide open and shut saw off right after last cut. Saw never ran better! Didnt notice much smell from the r50.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Saw never ran better! Didnt notice much smell from the r50


At least you know what I mean now !!

As far as the smell, wait until you are stumping or in a gulley or ditch on a calm day


----------



## KenJax Tree

Everyone has a different smeller, R50 gets to me fast but i like the smell of K2 and Super M (they smell same, that's why i think Super M has K2 in it) but others think K2 stinks.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Do you even know what ash is?



per Jaso...

The JASO FD spec is 0.18% ash, less than 1/5 of 1% of ash content in the oil. Sulfated ash is the way to measure ash content by the way and its biggest contributing factor is metallic additive such as zinc and calcium.

Hows that?



bwalker said:


> The help keep the components blended too.
> No one adds them for fillers ss solvents are expensive..



Well considering gasoline is the biggest solvent in the gas oil mix. I'd have to say that any 2t oil that needs a bunch of solvents to keep components blended...well just plain SUCKS

According to belray - yeah I know they are "biased". But the solvents are the cheapest raw material in 2t oil. Maybe maybe not, but it doesn't seem like a statement that is that far fetched at all.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> per Jaso...
> 
> The JASO FD spec is 0.18% ash, less than 1/5 of 1% of ash content in the oil. Sulfated ash is the way to measure ash content by the way and its biggest contributing factor is metallic additive such as zinc and calcium.
> 
> Hows that?
> .



Thats a good answer ,but i still do not know what ash is ,


----------



## KG441c

I would say the 241c mtronics burns 
the 98.5 race fuel and the 32:1 r50 just right?


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Thats a good answer ,but i still do not know what ash is ,


 I thought ash was whats left over after I burn wood in my fireplace.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

plug looks ok run a few more tanks and pull the plug again.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> plug looks ok run a few more tanks and pull the plug again.


What is the plug suppose to look like?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

well im use to plugs looking leather brown but i dont have any strato or mtronic saws


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> plug looks ok run a few more tanks and pull the plug again.


Picture from google of a properly tuned 2 stroke


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> What is the plug suppose to look like?


 http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/12/20/reading-101-how-to-read-your-spark-plugs/
Here's a good read.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/12/20/reading-101-how-to-read-your-spark-plugs/
> Here's a good read.


yep looks good


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> Picture from google of a properly tuned 2 strokeView attachment 421573


I will have to snap an image ,with h1r my plug did not look like that ,was darker ,with a new oil i am trying it does though ,it is a dry tan color like that


----------



## Deleted member 83629




----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> I will have to snap an image ,with h1r my plug did not look like that ,was darker ,with a new oil i am trying it does though ,it is a dry tan color like that


I actually tune my carb saws alil richer than the pic I posted


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> View attachment 421574
> 
> View attachment 421575


Mtronics seems to be doing a pretty good job at 32to1


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> View attachment 421574
> 
> View attachment 421575


Is that 2 stroke or 4 stroke?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> I would say the 241c mtronics burns View attachment 421572
> the 98.5 race fuel and the 32:1 r50 just right?


it's burning clean but with a ecu controlled carb good gas and good oil at a good mixture i wouldn't expect any problems.
that plug looks like my plugs after 30,000 miles inside a f150. 
i suppose the economy is quite good with this saw also.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> Is that 2 stroke or 4 stroke?


its a page out of my haynes small engine repair manual for 2 strokes and 4 stroke engines.
the book is old and dated but still holds good value.


----------



## Ron660

Just spoke with a Motul Rep. He recommended 800 off-road or road racing for my ported 660. He didn't recommend 710 but stated if I wanted to try 710 use only at 32:1. It's only 75% oil! He also said 800 could be mixed at 40:1 with sufficient lubrication. Guess the other Motul guy I talked to was a sales rep. I asked about the JASO rating of 800. He said any oil made stricly for racing isn't JASO required but it would exceed FD certification. Using 800 or R50 I don't think we'll ever have a lubrication or wear issue.


----------



## Trx250r180

jakewells said:


> View attachment 421574
> 
> View attachment 421575


these are 4 stroke images ,do not relate to what we have in saws


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> its a page out of my haynes small engine repair manual for 2 strokes and 4 stroke engines.
> the book is old and dated but still holds good value.


From what ive read u read 2 stoke and 4 stroke plugs differently


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Ron660 said:


> I thought ash was whats left over after I burn wood in my fireplace.


this is what poor quality oil will do to a 2 cycle.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> this is what poor quality oil will do to a 2 cycle.
> View attachment 421576


Lmbo!!!!!


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> I actually tune my carb saws alil richer than the pic I posted


I bet with more fuel run through the electrode white part will gain some color ,looks good though to me .


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> I bet with more fuel run through the electrode white part will gain some color ,looks good though to me .


Ya the last 6 cuts were consecutive and wide open then I killed it after last cut


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my lawn boy 2 cycle plugs are blackish grey but if the engine has a decent load the plugs clean up a little.


----------



## redbull660

Trx250r180 said:


> Thats a good answer ,but i still do not know what ash is ,




ash is a measurement of residues left after burning. 
ash is what makes up the solids in smoke and can contribute to hard deposits.

So it's just like wood man heh





Ron660 said:


> Just spoke with a Motul Rep. He recommended 800 off-road or road racing for my ported 660. He didn't recommend 710 but stated if I wanted to try 710 use only at 32:1. It's only 75% oil! He also said 800 could be mixed at 40:1 with sufficient lubrication. Guess the other Motul guy I talked to was a sales rep. I asked about the JASO rating of 800. He said any oil made stricly for racing isn't JASO required but it would exceed FD certification. Using 800 or R50 I don't think we'll ever have a lubrication or wear issue.




75% oil. so at 32:1 of 710 it's actually 40:1 ...why he said run at 32:1.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

guess i better grab the non detergent sae 30 from the shelf and pull it out of retirement.
16:1 here i come haha


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> ash is a measurement of residues left after burning.
> ash is what makes up the solids in smoke and can contribute to hard deposits.
> 
> So it's just like wood man heh
> .



Thanks ,the junk man understand english ,that fancy talk goes right over muh head though .


----------



## KenJax Tree

So using my crappy solvent filled FD rated claiming Maxima Super M @ 42:1 in everything from MS 192T-390xp what ratio of oil am i really using?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

this has ran 2 yrs worth of husky xp oil at 32:1 
you guys see a problem? rings are not stuck and appear to be fine.


----------



## KG441c

Ya! 


jakewells said:


> this has ran 2 yrs worth of husky xp oil at 32:1
> you guys see a problem? rings are not stuck and appear to be fine.
> View attachment 421579


It needs a wirewheel!!!! Lol!!!!


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> So using my crappy solvent filled FD rated claiming Maxima Super M @ 42:1 in everything from MS 192T-390xp what ratio of oil am i really using?


Fifty


----------



## Deleted member 83629

wouldn't the solvent makeup of some of these oils be from the the fuel stabilizers used in the oil.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417
> 
> here's a list of all the oils we are considering.
> 
> http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Super M.pdf here's super m. guess I didn't have it on my list. you look at it and make an estimate.


Super m minimum 30% solvents


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> per Jaso...
> 
> The JASO FD spec is 0.18% ash, less than 1/5 of 1% of ash content in the oil. Sulfated ash is the way to measure ash content by the way and its biggest contributing factor is metallic additive such as zinc and calcium.
> 
> Hows that?
> 
> 
> 
> Well considering gasoline is the biggest solvent in the gas oil mix. I'd have to say that any 2t oil that needs a bunch of solvents to keep components blended...well just plain SUCKS
> 
> According to belray - yeah I know they are "biased". But the solvents are the cheapest raw material in 2t oil. Maybe maybe not, but it doesn't seem like a statement that is that far fetched at all.


So you pretty much didn't have a clue till you googled it..
The ash content of 800 is the highest I have ever seen for a 2 cycle oil..It wouldn't pass fd/fc by this alone.
And you only think that about solvents because you don't have a clue what your talking about..


----------



## blsnelling

jakewells said:


> this has ran 2 yrs worth of husky xp oil at 32:1
> you guys see a problem? rings are not stuck and appear to be fine.
> View attachment 421579


I have never been a fan of Husky oil. This pic reinforces that opinion.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> So you pretty much didn't have a clue till you googled it..
> The ash content of 800 is the highest I have ever seen for a 2 cycle oil..It wouldn't pass fd/fc by this alone.
> And you only think that about solvents because you don't have a clue what your talking about..


Why don't you enlighten us then?


----------



## blsnelling

For you guys looking at plugs...you cannot correctly read a plug unless you're looking at the very base of the porcelain. Typically you have to cut away the metal to really see it. With that said, a properly tuned 2-stroke will generally have a cocoa brown colored plug. Additionally, this will vary based on the oil and fuel used. For these reasons, I consider it a very poor method to use to tune a saw.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Super m minimum 30% solvents


How do you figure. It says 5-15%..


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i just got a basic tune on mine 4 strokes out of the cut then cleans up in the wood. 
i rarely look at plugs unless it is hard starting.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> For you guys looking at plugs...you cannot correctly read a plug unless you're looking at the very base of the porcelain. Typically you have to cut away the metal to really see it. With that said, a properly tuned 2-stroke will generally have a cocoa brown colored plug. Additionally, this will vary based on the oil and fuel used. For these reasons, I consider it a very poor method to use to tune a saw.


I agree but we used it on dirtbikes quite often with good luck


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Why don't you enlighten us then?


On?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> How do you figure. It says 5-15%..


I didnt I was guessing. What he really is trying to say is that Yamalube is terrible by the solvent content?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

all this talk of oil plugs i might try the woodland pro in the 5 gallon pail the saw mill is using up the road.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Super M


K2


Not sure what im looking at[emoji10]


----------



## KG441c

I think its all supertech from walmart and relabeled!!! Lol!!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

solvent naphtha medium aliphatic is basically stoddard solvent/ kerosene 
polybutene is a smoke inhibitor


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I didnt I was guessing. What he really is trying to say is that Yamalube is terrible by the solvent content?


And he's nuts...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> ash is a measurement of residues left after burning.
> ash is what makes up the solids in smoke and can contribute to hard deposits.
> 
> So it's just like wood man heh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 75% oil. so at 32:1 of 710 it's actually 40:1 ...why he said run at 32:1.


Again your completley wrong..
Ash refers to the amount of mettalic ash when reacting an oil sample with sulfuric acid... It has nothing to do with smoke.
JASO puts a limit on ash and there is no way 800t would meet jaso-FD because it's ash content is through the roof.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

here is the stihl orange bottle.
http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/STIHL2CYHP.pdf


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> solvent naphtha medium aliphatic is basically stoddard solvent/ kerosene
> polybutene is a smoke inhibitor


PIB is not a smoke inhibitor per se. It's a high molecular weigh anti scuff base stock. It lowers smoke when blended in a oil because it burns cleanly without smoke.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I have never been a fan of Husky oil. This pic reinforces that opinion.


Looks like that piston had a lot of blowby. Blowby will make any oil look bad.


----------



## blsnelling

Why do the semi synthetics have such a higher solvent content?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> I think its all supertech from walmart and relabeled!!! Lol!!!


supertech 2 cycle oil is blended by warren oil company they carry the brands such as coastal,itasca,mag1 

look at this for poulan synthetic 2 cycle oil with fuel stabilizer 
http://msds.walmartstores.com/clien...2-8f59-db11504b3e8c&action=MSDS&subformat=NAM


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Why do the semi synthetics have such a higher solvent content?


Semi synthetics and oils like K2 and 710 have higher solvent contents because a little solvent is needed to keep the multiple components of their blends in suspension.
I would much rather see a little solvent and an oil with a blend of components than a straight synthetic base stock and additive blend like H1R.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> supertech 2 cycle oil is blended by warren oil company they carry the brands such as coastal,itasca,mag1
> 
> look at this for poulan synthetic 2 cycle oil with fuel stabilizer
> http://msds.walmartstores.com/clien...2-8f59-db11504b3e8c&action=MSDS&subformat=NAM


SuperTech is marine oil.. not a good idea in a saw, although plenty of loggers use it.


----------



## bwalker

What do you guys see weird here???



Maxima Super M Injector, exceed BIA/TCW, JASO-FC, ISO-E-GD and API TC.

Mobil1 MX2T, exceed JASO-FC, Proposed ISO-L-EGD, API TC.

Motorex CrossPower 2T, JASO FC, ISO-L-EGD, ISO-Global GC, API TC, Low Smoke.

Motul 800 Factory Line Road Racing 2T double ester, API TC.

http://images28.fotki.com/v986/photos/7/39087/7893182/IMAG0003-vi.jpg

...............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul

Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
Tin................0...............0...............0............57
Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
Barium............2...............2..............2............1
Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65

Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Looks like that piston had a lot of blowby. Blowby will make any oil look bad.





bwalker said:


> Semi synthetics and oils like K2 and 710 have higher solvent contents because a little solvent is needed to keep the multiple components of their blends in suspension.
> I would much rather see a little solvent and an oil with a blend of components than a straight synthetic base stock and additive blend like H1R.


Reply to this statement. This is not a statement of fact or opinion. Just looking for thoughts on it.

"Semi synthetics only need all those extra detergents and additives because they use petroleum oil and burn dirty."


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Reply to this statement. This is not a statement of fact or opinion. Just looking for thoughts on it.
> 
> "Semi synthetics only need all those extra detergents and additives because they use petroleum oil and burn dirty."


That's a completely blanket statement. Many semis burn cleaner than full synthetics.
What made the oil older mineral oils burn dirty was the heavy weight bright stock added as a antiscuff. When you replace bright stock with an ester or better yet a PIB the dirty burning and smoke are no longer a factor.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> That's a completely blanket statement. Many semis burn cleaner than full synthetics.


And, could that simply be due to all the extra additives?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i got some lawnboy ashless oil i might use since i got 12 cases of it it really doesn't has much for solvents its just ashless oil.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> What do you guys see weird here???
> 
> 
> 
> Maxima Super M Injector, exceed BIA/TCW, JASO-FC, ISO-E-GD and API TC.
> 
> Mobil1 MX2T, exceed JASO-FC, Proposed ISO-L-EGD, API TC.
> 
> Motorex CrossPower 2T, JASO FC, ISO-L-EGD, ISO-Global GC, API TC, Low Smoke.
> 
> Motul 800 Factory Line Road Racing 2T double ester, API TC.
> 
> http://images28.fotki.com/v986/photos/7/39087/7893182/IMAG0003-vi.jpg
> 
> ...............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul
> 
> Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
> Tin................0...............0...............0............57
> Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
> Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
> Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
> Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
> Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
> Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
> Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
> Barium............2...............2..............2............1
> Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
> Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65
> 
> Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
> VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
> TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53


Bwalker r u really bobistheoilguy???!! Lol!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

blsnelling said:


> And, could that simply be due to all the extra additives?


might be extra additives to combat the ethanol laced fuel these days.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> What do you guys see weird here???
> 
> 
> 
> Maxima Super M Injector, exceed BIA/TCW, JASO-FC, ISO-E-GD and API TC.
> 
> Mobil1 MX2T, exceed JASO-FC, Proposed ISO-L-EGD, API TC.
> 
> Motorex CrossPower 2T, JASO FC, ISO-L-EGD, ISO-Global GC, API TC, Low Smoke.
> 
> Motul 800 Factory Line Road Racing 2T double ester, API TC.
> 
> http://images28.fotki.com/v986/photos/7/39087/7893182/IMAG0003-vi.jpg
> 
> ...............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul
> 
> Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
> Tin................0...............0...............0............57
> Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
> Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
> Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
> Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
> Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
> Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
> Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
> Barium............2...............2..............2............1
> Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
> Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65
> 
> Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
> VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
> TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53


Motul 800 has the highest additives which will contribute to the leftovers after combustion that would exceed the ash threshold of .018 for Jaso FD certification?


----------



## blsnelling

Keep in mind, that's the Road Racing version, and the K2 is the injector version.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> Keep in mind, that's the Road Racing version, and the K2 is the injector version.


He posted the Super M injector there isn't a K2 for injectors


----------



## KenJax Tree

Anyways i don't know what all the numbers and % mean, the more i try to understand the less i understand[emoji10]


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Keep in mind, that's the Road Racing version, and the K2 is the injector version.


The road racing version is nearly identical to the Off Road version.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Bwalker r u really bobistheoilguy???!! Lol!!


No, the original bob was a complete hack...


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Motul 800 has the highest additives which will contribute to the leftovers after combustion that would exceed the ash threshold of .018 for Jaso FD certification?


Bingo..


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Bingo..


Do u have the #s for my beloved r50??? Lol!!!


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> And, could that simply be due to all the extra additives?


Not sure what your referring to here.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> you are claiming smoke doesn't contain ash! LOL
> 
> dude you are the best. I can't believe you said I was wrong, THEN paraphrased what I said, as your correction statement. That's just awesome.


Yea, I am. Ash refers to the sulfated ash test.
Don't you ever get sick of being wrong?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> great. WHY?


What's your question.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Yea, it's undeniable that the higher viscosity oils have more film strength. But in a saw you never use this capability.


I know of quite a few saws that do. None of which are stock.[emoji3]


----------



## KenJax Tree

That saw hasn't had enough 800 through it to even look like trash


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Yea, I am. Ash refers to the sulfated ash test.
> Don't you ever get sick of being wrong?




Bwalker, you just don't get it do you. You are saying I am wrong and but then agreeing with me. You can’t seem to understand how the sulfated ash test result relates to actual ash content. The test tells you how much ash could be produced by the oil when burned, period. That ash would then either be deposited in the motor or exit out with the exhaust.

If there is another option for what the ash does I would like to hear it!


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> No, the original bob was a complete hack...



What are all the Hack levels ,i see he is complete ,and you are resident ,Is resident above or below complete


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Bwalker, you just don't get it do you. You are saying I am wrong and but then agreeing with me. You can’t seem to understand how the sulfated ash test result relates to actual ash content. The test tells you how much ash could be produced by the oil when burned, period. That ash would then either be deposited in the motor or exit out with the exhaust.
> 
> If there is another option for what the ash does I would like to hear it!


What don't you understand in regards to ash having zero to do with smoke.. you where correct on where the ash comes from, but you had no idea that ash is a measurement from a bench test..


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I know of quite a few saws that do. None of which are stock.[emoji3]


That baddest mod saw around has a pretty pathetic HP per CC..


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> Bwalker, you just don't get it do you. You are saying I am wrong and but then agreeing with me. You can’t seem to understand how the sulfated ash test result relates to actual ash content. The test tells you how much ash could be produced by the oil when burned, period. That ash would then either be deposited in the motor or exit out with the exhaust.
> 
> If there is another option for what the ash does I would like to hear it!


And many of the additives like Zinc, Calcium have added benefits. If the detergents take care of, or prevent ash buildup it's a win. It really doesn't matter the how much potential ash material is in the oil, what matters is if it solidifies on engine components.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> That baddest mod saw around has a pretty pathetic HP per CC..



Being the all knowing oil and chainsaw God why do I even bother.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> And many of the additives like Zinc, Calcium have added benefits. If the detergents take care of, or prevent ash buildup it's a win. It really doesn't matter the how much potential ash material is in the oil, what matters is if it solidifies on engine components.


Zinc by design seeks out hot spots, so it ends up on the crown, spark plug and combustion chamber dome. And it does matter.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Zinc by design seeks out hot spots, so it ends up on the crown, spark plug and combustion chamber dome. And it does matter.


You're right. 


Man do see and hear what you want.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Being the all knowing oil and chainsaw God why do I even bother.


Is this not true?


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> You're right.
> 
> 
> Man do see and hear what you want.


You see and hear what fits your false pre conceived notions..


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> You see and hear what fits your false pre conceived notions..


Yup.


----------



## redbull660

I hereby nominate bwalker to be upgraded from Resident Hack to Resident Troll 1st Class !


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I hereby nominate bwalker to be upgraded from Resident Hack to Resident Troll 1st Class !


How about we nominate you for resident dumbazz?


----------



## RonL

I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!

Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!

Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.

As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.

I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> That's quite the testimonial. Unless there are significant performance gains to be found with a less viscous oil like Motul 710 or Maxima Super M, I see no reason for you to consider anything else. The only other reason I could think of would be the cost factor for someone doing that much cutting all the time.


Bingo. I don't think there's anything harder on saws than that. I used a pint or something like that of 710 3 years ago when I switched from ultra. Seems to be great stuff from what I remember.


----------



## Ron660

RonL said:


> I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!
> 
> Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!
> 
> Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.
> 
> As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.
> 
> I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!


A Dyno test showed my ported 660 max HP was at 9500 rpms. My friend's ported 461 max HP was at 10,500.


----------



## KenJax Tree

RonL said:


> I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!
> 
> Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!
> 
> Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.
> 
> As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.
> 
> I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!


Epic isn't it? After 2872 posts all we know is H1-R is too thick to use at 32:1 and solvents suck and will possibly blow up your saw.[emoji15]


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!
> 
> Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!
> 
> Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.
> 
> As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.
> 
> I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!


This guy gets it..


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Epic isn't it? After 2872 posts all we know is H1-R is too thick to use at 32:1 and solvents suck and will possibly blow up your saw.[emoji15]


Yea and all those chemists and petrol engineers that keep adding solvents to the highest rated oils don't know squat. MAY be they should consult with RedBull and he can show them the error of their ways...


----------



## RonL

My priorities for evaluating two cycle oils, in descending order are: peer reviewed independent research ( the peer review on this sight can be contentious ), industrial research, racers experiences, builders experiences, and users experiences. I think that industrial researchers play their cards close to the vest so it is hard to find. When all these sources point to a certain direction i tend to look in that direction. My research, albeit limited, has led me to believe that i will not use anything but synthetic oils. They can be formulated to meet the task at hand, rather than being modified to meet the task at hand. Certain synthetics can be polar, like castor.
Equipment manufacturers contract with oil producers to formulate oils that meet their criteria. One criteria is max profits. The oil may be very good. The independent oil sellers sell oil to meet the needs of the user. If they get the reputation of producing the best oil they sell the most oil.


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> My priorities for evaluating two cycle oils, in descending order are: peer reviewed independent research ( the peer review on this sight can be contentious ), industrial research, racers experiences, builders experiences, and users experiences. I think that industrial researchers play their cards close to the vest so it is hard to find. When all these sources point to a certain direction i tend to look in that direction. My research, albeit limited, has led me to believe that i will not use anything but synthetic oils. They can be formulated to meet the task at hand, rather than being modified to meet the task at hand. Certain synthetics can be polar, like castor.
> Equipment manufacturers contract with oil producers to formulate oils that meet their criteria. One criteria is max profits. The oil may be very good. The independent oil sellers sell oil to meet the needs of the user. If they get the reputation of producing the best oil they sell the most oil.


Castors aren't synthetic and are not polar.
Castors claim to fame is that under high temp conditions it does not burn but rather polymerizes into a grease like substance. Great for preventing metal to metal contact, but terrible for deposits.
Synthetics aren't a bad thing and like anything else some are good and some suck. Same goes for semi synthetics.
I think in many cases for saw use a semi synthetic is the best choice. Now, if your like Dave and only milling I would say a good high temp synthetic would be a good idea. Personaly I would be looking at Motul 800t in that application and at 32:1 or perhaps lower. I would also not hesitate to use Yam 2R in that application at a 32:1 or lower ratio.


----------



## bwalker

One other thing to consider is some engines are just plain dirty burners. Likely because they don't scavenge well. Stihl 026, 036 and to a lesser extent the 044 were terrible in this regard.
The flip side is the Redman 8000 blower I have. The damn thing has been ran hard since the early two thousands, including commercial use for 5+ years on everything from tcw3 marine oil to castor oil blends. The piston skirts are bare metal still showing machine marks,the exhaust port has a very light coating of carbon with no raised deposits, the muffler is bone dry and the piston crown looks text book. It also ran it's original spark plug till this winter. I replaced it just because during an internal inspection. And it's been ran at 32:1 for most of this time.


----------



## CR500

Been using R50 and I'm happy so far. With that said I really like K2 and it is available and the color of it mixed with fuel is hard to mistake with straight gas.

Motul 800 in the 441 did alright ad well.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## RonL

I have ten saws now. From an MS 200 T to a MS 660. All, except the 660, use the same bar and chain. The 660 uses whatever bar and chain that I need it for. The rest rest of the saws are used for whatever purpose they are most efficient at. The 660 is most used with .404 semi chain for cutting up larger rounds for splitting.

Some time ago I bought a liter of H1R, A liter of K2, 4 liters of 710 2T, and 4 liters of 800 2T.
My initial intent was to test all of them.
I could not get my head around the fact that H1R had to have the needles opened up and used 15% more mix. The 660 had the dual port muffler, I rejetted it, and removed the limiters. I was going to make a seperate mix with H1R to use in the 660 to do my own testing. When it needed rebuilding, I was going to break it down and inspect it. I decided that I did not have the time or inclination to maintain seperate mixes. I suspect that when I concluded my tests it would have shown to me that I had used 15% more mix.
I bought Sunoco Optima in 5 gallon cans, mostly because it had a long shelf life and was ethanol free. It was my emergency supply for the generator and was then used for the 2 cycles.
I used the K2. It worked well. I now use Motul 710 2T. I used the H1R and 800 2T, along with beeswax and various microcrystalline waxes, to experiment with bullet lubes. If you think 2 cycle oil threads are contentious, try a bullet lube thread.


----------



## RonL

I'm aware that castor is a bean oil. I was under the impression that it was polar. My point was that certain synthetics are polar as I thought castor was.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Castors aren't synthetic and are not polar.
> Castors claim to fame is that under high temp conditions it does not burn but rather polymerizes into a grease like substance. Great for preventing metal to metal contact, but terrible for deposits.
> Synthetics aren't a bad thing and like anything else some are good and some suck. Same goes for semi synthetics.
> I think in many cases for saw use a semi synthetic is the best choice. Now, if your like Dave and only milling I would say a good high temp synthetic would be a good idea. Personaly I would be looking at Motul 800t in that application and at 32:1 or perhaps lower. I would also not hesitate to use Yam 2R in that application at a 32:1 or lower ratio.


Motul has done great. The price is a little higher than the others is my only complaint really. All of them suck for fumes when you're burning 1-2 tanks in 9' of cut and maybe 20 minutes. A band ill would be much better but that's a bit out of reach right now.


----------



## RonL

I am using Motul 710 2T at 32 to one. I still believe that 32 to 1 offers better ring sealing and bearing protection. I believe that Motul 710 2T is as good as any and better than most.


----------



## porsche965

mdavlee said:


> Motul has done great. The price is a little higher than the others is my only complaint really. All of them suck for fumes when you're burning 1-2 tanks in 9' of cut and maybe 20 minutes. A band ill would be much better but that's a bit out of reach right now.



Mike, It might be a PITA but if your milling site is electric convenient what about setting one of those big round portable barn fans up to get the fumes away from you?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't need or want the best, just good enough works for me.


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Mike, It might be a PITA but if your milling site is electric convenient what about setting one of those big round portable barn fans up to get the fumes away from you?


Most of the time if I can load it or move it now it goes home. If it's too big I do it in the woods so no electricity for a half mile or so. I try to set up with the wind at my back. Some days with no breeze it's kind of bad.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> Been using R50 and I'm happy so far. With that said I really like K2 and it is available and the color of it mixed with fuel is hard to mistake with straight gas.
> 
> Motul 800 in the 441 did alright ad well.
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I'm am running K2 now as well. I wish the color was a dark blue or green as I am paranoid about running a saw on straight gas. Mobil mx2t drove me crazy in this regard too!


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> I have ten saws now. From an MS 200 T to a MS 660. All, except the 660, use the same bar and chain. The 660 uses whatever bar and chain that I need it for. The rest rest of the saws are used for whatever purpose they are most efficient at. The 660 is most used with .404 semi chain for cutting up larger rounds for splitting.
> 
> Some time ago I bought a liter of H1R, A liter of K2, 4 liters of 710 2T, and 4 liters of 800 2T.
> My initial intent was to test all of them.
> I could not get my head around the fact that H1R had to have the needles opened up and used 15% more mix. The 660 had the dual port muffler, I rejetted it, and removed the limiters. I was going to make a seperate mix with H1R to use in the 660 to do my own testing. When it needed rebuilding, I was going to break it down and inspect it. I decided that I did not have the time or inclination to maintain seperate mixes. I suspect that when I concluded my tests it would have shown to me that I had used 15% more mix.
> I bought Sunoco Optima in 5 gallon cans, mostly because it had a long shelf life and was ethanol free. It was my emergency supply for the generator and was then used for the 2 cycles.
> I used the K2. It worked well. I now use Motul 710 2T. I used the H1R and 800 2T, along with beeswax and various microcrystalline waxes, to experiment with bullet lubes. If you think 2 cycle oil threads are contentious, try a bullet lube thread.


Bullet lubes even matter less than two cycle oil and your right those threads get crazy!


mdavlee said:


> Most of the time if I can load it or move it now it goes home. If it's too big I do it in the woods so no electricity for a half mile or so. I try to set up with the wind at my back. Some days with no breeze it's kind of bad.


I would look into a half face respirator with the appropriate cartridges.


----------



## Flatie

RonL said:


> I am using Motul 710 2T at 32 to one. I still believe that 32 to 1 offers better ring sealing and bearing protection. I believe that Motul 710 2T is as good as any and better than most.



Why 710 over 800? How did you find the 800?


----------



## RonL

My original intent in researching oils was to find an oil that would give me the best performance, but more importantly, would give me the best protection. The saws I have now will probably be the saws i will be using for the rest of my life.


----------



## RonL

Why 710 over 800? How did you find the 800?

What I think is an educated guess. Perhaps others may think it stupid. I think it may be to viscous. The engineers at Motul specifically formulated 710 2T for the purpose at hand.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> I'm am running K2 now as well. I wish the color was a dark blue or green as I am paranoid about running a saw on straight gas. Mobil mx2t drove me crazy in this regard too!


The color of K2 with "our" fuel is like a bright cool orange lol....kind of a trip honestly hahaha. Maxima 927 is enough to make one speculate if they mixed their fuel.

I will probably never settle on oil because I enjoy the subject. 

K2 seems to be a good balance of combustion and protection to me anyways. 


Speaking of 927. I know I've said this before but would running 927
at 40:1 be the ticket to avoid some ugly build up? I ran 5 gallons in the 441 last year and everything seemed alright only time would tell though. In my dirtbikes, once tuned 927 burned really well, carbon buildup was normal but then again bikes are different than saws....
Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> The color of K2 with "our" fuel is like a bright cool orange lol....kind of a trip honestly hahaha. Maxima 927 is enough to make one speculate if they mixed their fuel.
> 
> I will probably never settle on oil because I enjoy the subject.
> 
> K2 seems to be a good balance of combustion and protection to me anyways.
> 
> 
> Speaking of 927. I know I've said this before but would running 927
> at 40:1 be the ticket to avoid some ugly build up? I ran 5 gallons in the 441 last year and everything seemed alright only time would tell though. In my dirtbikes, once tuned 927 burned really well, carbon buildup was normal but then again bikes are different than saws....
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I can't say, but I have ran Klotz Super Techniplate at 40:1 in my bike and it was still pretty dirty. Castor is just dirty no matter how you look at it.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> I can't say, but I have ran Klotz Super Techniplate at 40:1 in my bike and it was still pretty dirty. Castor is just dirty no matter how you look at it.


The smell of race day is hard to get away from lol.

May be buying a CR250 soon so I guess 927 will be used again lol 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## DexterDay

CR500 said:


> The smell of race day is hard to get away from lol.
> 
> May be buying a CR250 soon so I guess 927 will be used again lol
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.



I have never smelled a better smell than Castor 927 and Cam2 race fuel!!


Mmmmmm... mmmmm.. Smells good enough to eat!

Oh the memories!


----------



## RonL

"Castor oil has an unusual composition and chemistry, which makes it quite valuable. Ninety percent of fatty acids in castor oil are ricinoleic acid. Ricinoleic acid, a monounsaturated, 18-carbon fatty acid, has a hydroxyl functional group at the twelveth carbon, a very uncommon property for a biological fatty acid. This functional group causes ricinoleic acid (and castor oil) to be unusually polar, and also allows chemical derivitization that is not practical with other biological oils. Since it is a polar dielectric with a relatively high dielectric constant (4.7), highly refined and dried Castor oil is sometimes used as a dielectric fluid within high performance high voltage capacitors. Castor oil also contains 3-4% of both oleic and linoleic acids.[1] "
Courtesy of Yahoo answers

I'm pretty sure castor oil is polar. This is only one source that I found, but it pretty well defines it.


----------



## shorthunter

blsnelling said:


> Cleanliness is problematic because it will vary GREATLY based on how the saw is used, how it's tuned, if it's ported, and the kind of fuel used.



Great point here. People who enter the cut at half throttle and/ or run their saws with carbs that are tuned too rich will have more issues with carbon buildup over an operator who runs a saw at two speeds(WFO, Idle) and keeps the carb properly tuned


----------



## MustangMike

I'm out, too much to read each time here.

Enjoy the tail chasing!

Thanks for the testing & information.


----------



## Ron660

The old Stihl HP Super was JASO-FD but the new HP ultra is FB.


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> "Castor oil has an unusual composition and chemistry, which makes it quite valuable. Ninety percent of fatty acids in castor oil are ricinoleic acid. Ricinoleic acid, a monounsaturated, 18-carbon fatty acid, has a hydroxyl functional group at the twelveth carbon, a very uncommon property for a biological fatty acid. This functional group causes ricinoleic acid (and castor oil) to be unusually polar, and also allows chemical derivitization that is not practical with other biological oils. Since it is a polar dielectric with a relatively high dielectric constant (4.7), highly refined and dried Castor oil is sometimes used as a dielectric fluid within high performance high voltage capacitors. Castor oil also contains 3-4% of both oleic and linoleic acids.[1] "
> Courtesy of Yahoo answers
> 
> I'm pretty sure castor oil is polar. This is only one source that I found, but it pretty well defines it.


You may be right, but I have never heard it described by such till this.


----------



## RonL

That is why it was used by racers. Its polar attribute allowed it to "attach" itself to hot metal. It changed composition as it went up in temperature until it eventually turned to varnish. Until it turned to varnish it offered lubricating qualities and protection that was superior to anything that was readily available to racers at the time. That is also why the engine had to be rebuilt after a race. It was protected during the course of the race, but it was pretty well gummed up by the end of the race.

That is one of the qualities of esters that make them useful in modern times. They are polar. The problems with some esters are they can be corrosive and some are hygroscopic. The reason that I looked at K2 is that it was formulated to be non corrosive and, I believe, non hygroscopic.


----------



## Flatie

RonL said:


> Why 710 over 800? How did you find the 800?
> 
> What I think is an educated guess. Perhaps others may think it stupid. I think it may be to viscous. The engineers at Motul specifically formulated 710 2T for the purpose at hand.


The opinions and results from this thread are quite interesting. From this IMO 710,800,Super M perhaps K2 are on my list but unsure of K2 from the smoke people claim. More toward motul and have since dropped H1R

How clean did you find your internals on 710 vs 800? Did you inspect at all?


----------



## Pud

porsche965 said:


> Does anyone know if bearings give any kind of warnings in chainsaws before they fail? Vibrations? Drop in power? Noise?
> 
> Are bearing failures always catastrophic? Meaning taking out the whole top end.


They start to kinda rumble abit its quite obvious at idle , and yer if you keep going little bits of hard chrome and stuff generally scuff up pistons pretty bad and catch the gudgeon pin area of the piston and chip the tops of the transfer ports


----------



## RonL

Flatie

I did not use 800 2t in my saws. I ended up using it in bullet lube. The 800 2T on road, I believe, is way overboard for our purposes. The 800 2T off road may be usable, but my uneducated guess is that it may be too much for general use. Again, as I stated a long time ago, this is my opinion, for my use, in my saws for my purposes. I am not an oil chemist or oil engineer. Much of the information that one would need to make an absolute decision is proprietary. One can only speculate when looking at MSDS sheets, especially if the CAS # is "proprietary".
. I am using Motul 710 2T for the forseeable future. 710 2T is a replacement for a previous Motul oil. They may very well replace it in the future. Science and engineering does not stand still. Otherwise we would still be using 30 weight mineral oil.


----------



## Pud

Pud said:


> They start to kinda rumble abit its quite obvious at idle , and yer if you keep going little bits of hard chrome and stuff generally scuff up pistons pretty bad and catch the gudgeon pin area of the piston and chip the tops of the transfer ports




This is out of my old race bike ktm 250sx , actually still ran really well believe it or not .. Purely from not enuff oil dealer and owners manual talked me into 50.1


----------



## Ron660

Ported 036 running 32:1 800 off-road.


----------



## blsnelling

The camera focused on the saw, not the plug.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> The camera focused on the saw, not the plug.


 Well I guess I could blame it on my iphone or a couple of Michelobs.


----------



## Ron660

The focus on this one isn't much better.


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421780
> 
> The focus on this one isn't much better.


Yeah, but it looks new and wet ................. whats not to like ?


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421780
> 
> The focus on this one isn't much better.


Whoever ported and built that thing was clueless!!!


----------



## KG441c

Shadtree hack with a grinder and a #2 bastard file!!!lol


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> Yeah, but it looks new and wet ................. whats not to like ?


Looks like it's rich and has too much oil to me.


----------



## Trx250r180

Question on operating temps ,a modern car with efi needs to be roughly 195 degrees to get good milage and perform good older ones 160-180 ish with carbs , is there an ideal op temp for a saw to be running at for best performance ,and clean internals ,i know if a car runs too cold it develops sludge inside need to be warmed up to burn that off ,if have too free flowing exhaust letting too much heat out and the saw is running cooler than should be ,does this hurt performance or economy ?


----------



## KG441c

http://www.702sportbikes.com/showthread.php?11233-Reading-Spark-Plugs-and-Jetting-(2-Stroke-Only)


----------



## mdavlee

I need to rig up a temperature gauge of some sort to see how hot the saw gets when cutting firewood and milling.


----------



## Marshy

Why not install an EGT probe? That's the best way to gauge combustion/performance. That's what all the snowmobilers use when they tune to the edge.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421780
> 
> The focus on this one isn't much better.


Looks pretty dirty to me.


----------



## mdavlee

Marshy said:


> Why not install an EGT probe? That's the best way to gauge combustion/performance. That's what all the snowmobilers use when they tune to the edge.


Can't find one small enough to put in there.


----------



## Moparmyway

Marshy said:


> Why not install an EGT probe?


Where do they install one, and what type do they install ?


----------



## Andyshine77

Flatie said:


> The opinions and results from this thread are quite interesting. From this IMO 710,800,Super M perhaps K2 are on my list but unsure of K2 from the smoke people claim. More toward motul and have since dropped H1R
> 
> How clean did you find your internals on 710 vs 800? Did you inspect at all?


Motul 800 will smoke and produce more odor than K2, it's not even close. 710 produces very little smoke, but the smell is somewhat strong. I honestly don't know why people keep saying K2 smells off and produces more smoke than some other oils, it simply Does not!! I will say H1R produces the least smell and smoke, but again it messes with the running and tuning characteristics.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

I would use a 1/16 K type thermocouple and a hand held fluke attached to the handle.


----------



## Marshy

Moparmyway said:


> Where do they install one, and what type do they install ?


I'm not an expert by any means on EGT probes but have done some reading. The probe needs to be about 2" from the piston I believe. Guys mount them in the exhaust pipe close to the flange that bolts to the head. For a chainsaw it might be easy because you could get it straight in the exhaust port basically. They are generally K type thermocouples. The biggest problem for a chainsawis likely going to be sourcing a data acquisition system that's small enough to not be cumbersome and idk how it would be powered. I would start with Digatron or RacePak for acquisition systems. Maybe google autometer, westach, or isspro.


----------



## Marshy

Then you just turn your H screw to the exhaust temperature. Around 1290*F is good. Around 1350*F and your starting to push the thermal limit of the piston.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Automotive exhaust temps can reach between 1650-1900 deg at WOT depending on piston design and cooling capability and if a catalyst brick is present. I'm curious to see if a chainsaw exceeds 1100 deg at max load.


----------



## Marshy

That's true, I forgot the numbers I stated are for a liquid cooled snowmobile with a tuned pipe. No doubt there will be some trial and error. You' have to watch piston wash and plug color to read your tune to make sure you don't cross the line.


----------



## Marshy

Outlaw5.0 said:


> I would use a 1/16 K type thermocouple and a hand held fluke attached to the handle.


What's your opinion on how close to place the probe relative to the piston? Is just inside the opening of the exhaust runner too close?


----------



## Trx250r180

Can you put one in the decomp hole or does it have to be in the exhaust ?


----------



## Marshy

Trx250r180 said:


> Can you put one in the decomp hole or does it have to be in the exhaust ?


I'm not sure, I don't think they make them that short but I could be wrong. @Outlaw5.0 knows more than I I'm sure.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

No it has to be after the exhaust port. Weld the fitting on the muffler close as you can to the flange, it will most likely end up 1/2 to 1 inch from the flange.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

The decomp hole would be a good place for a Kistler cylinder pressure transducer if needed.


----------



## Four Paws

blsnelling said:


> Did someone say oil? Here's what I have on hand, with a bottle of Motul 710 on the way.





Andyshine77 said:


> Rookie!!!



Get some BeNol and you can lose the rookie status.


----------



## Ron660

036. I think this is the original muffler so I'm not sure what type of oil the original owner used. Keith rebuilt this one for me and I've been using 800 ever since. Last I checked it was tuned around 13,900. Same saw where the spark plug pic came from earlier.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Can you put one in the decomp hole or does it have to be in the exhaust ?


I think it would not be accurate as the fresh fuel charge would try to cool the probe right after the hot exhaust was trying to heat it


----------



## Moparmyway

I have some Fluke EGT probes, and thermocouple devices ................. I have the washer with the K type attached to it, and the radiator hose clamp style. Also have the AutoMeter EGT probe and 1/8" fitting along with many Fluke meters

I dont see a viable way of testing more than 1 muffler. I would have to weld the weldolet to a muffler and use the EGT probe from AutoMeter, with a seperate 12vdc power source.

I have a 16" wand with a K type at the end that I thought about tapping to the handlebar ...................

If there were a way to mount it reliably to different saws I might try testing it out


----------



## Trx250r180

What have i done here ...........


----------



## blsnelling

Just arrived.











...adding to the already healthy oil stash


----------



## Flatie

Andyshine77 said:


> Motul 800 will smoke and produce more odor than K2, it's not even close. 710 produces very little smoke, but the smell is somewhat strong. I honestly don't know why people keep saying K2 smells off and produces more smoke than some other oils, it simply Does not!! I will say H1R produces the least smell and smoke, but again it messes with the running and tuning characteristics.


Ok thanks. It's a tough call on which one then. I'll see how snelling likes 710.


----------



## Flatie

Interested to hear your thoughts on 710 brad. I may go that route also!


----------



## CR500

bought a liter of K2 for "work" and personal use it was about 15 bucks out the door.

One reason I like K2 and I've aid it before is the color of it when mixed. (Also it has real no strong smell to me anyways. H1R and Stihl Ultra have strong smell but I can withstand H1R unlike Ultra)


It is always nice when a customer says "you were the last one to work on my saw and now it's seized!!!! It's all your fault." Then they claim it's "your fuel"

Funny when it has awfully blond looking fuel in there..... needless to say they either admit they are sorry for yelling at you, or they just leave all mad when they are proved wrong.



Speaking of smell I had a MS 180 come in today that was flooded and they guy said "You will never get it started". A few pulls later it popped and ran lol. He was using The Stihl orange bottle oil and man did my eyes burn forever after he left. hahaah


----------



## KenJax Tree

Maxima Super M is the same color and smells the same.


----------



## blsnelling

Unacceptable! How did this thread get on the second page?!!!!!


----------



## KG441c

44$ per 1 gallon on Amazon


----------



## KG441c

Im thinking everyones opinions on this one says this oil has more odor or smokes more or this and that has to do with the fuel used also. I run Sunoco Standard 110 and 87 efree cut 50/50 for 98.5 octane. R50 and h1r both had way less odor when using the race fuel. The fuel itself in a storage container when opened is far less offensive than pump gas


----------



## KenJax Tree

The only 2 that bother me are Stihl Ultra and Klotz. Ultra makes my head pound and Klotz makes nauseous. Klotz only gets to me if its right under my nose like in ***, i've used it in my MX bike and its ok.

I think some others i've used stink but they don't have any effect on me. Lucas i couldn't really smell at all and the Maxima's smell good to me.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> View attachment 421954
> 
> 44$ per 1 gallon on Amazon


$35 a gallon[emoji4]


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> $35 a gallon[emoji4]
> View attachment 421968


Find us a bargain on 800 or 710!


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> Find us a bargain on 800 or 710!


Looks like 800 off road and R50 are at the top, with Lucas in the chase ...................isn't 710 injector oil ?


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> ...isn't 710 injector oil ?


Both. Many of the less viscous oils are indicated for both injector and premix.


----------



## CR888

Even after 'some' testing that gave 'some' facts it seems everyone is still buying into the same problems associated with 100% ester based full synthetics. Chaning the bottle brand is like switching cola soda brands and expecting to loose wieght. Why not try somthing different if you are seeking different results. As l said over 100 pages ago 'the few advantages of full synthetics are diminished by its disadvantages. lf you can't sleep at night without man made perfect molecules of lubrication in you chainsaw try a semi synth.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Im thinking everyones opinions on this one says this oil has more odor or smokes more or this and that has to do with the fuel used also. I run Sunoco Standard 110 and 87 efree cut 50/50 for 98.5 octane. R50 and h1r both had way less odor when using the race fuel. The fuel itself in a storage container when opened is far less offensive than pump gas


 I agree. I use 110 octane racing fuel with 32:1 Motul 800 off-road with no foul odors and no smoke. It burns super clean and my piston and rings are always coated with oil after use. Mix those two together and you'll think you made a pina colada.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm not ready to throw out H1-R just yet. Before we can say that it is unique in that it inhibits combustion, we must first test 800, and maybe K2, to see if they do the same. If they don't, then I will be done with H1-R. But, we don't know that yet.

Then we need to determine if oils like 710, Super M, Yamalube, and Lucas have a negative performance impact at 32:1. 

If 800 has a significantly negative impact at 32:1 as H1-R does, and if the thinner oils do not, then I'm thinking I'd rather run the thinner oil at the heavier mix. I say this in consideration of better lubrication for the crank bearings.

But then that might be a contradiction. If 800 or H1-R have the same amount of oil at 40:1 as the thinner oils do at 32:1, then it's all a moot point, and you might as well run the better oil at 40:1.

There's LOTS of testing to be done!


----------



## KG441c

I agree with all that. What do u think about the high concentration of corrosives in the race oils that bwalker keeps referring to? Negative impact if left in saw for extended periods?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lol i couldn't afford to use the cocktails you guys use, i would work just to buy fuel, and see no benefit from it.


----------



## blsnelling

I don't think there are corrosives in those oils. Years ago there was an issue with most ester oils in that they are hydroscopic and attract moisture. This would cause rusting of cranks and bearings, leading to failure. Most ester oils now have additives that prevent this. We should do our due diligence and confirm this with each oil, but I don't think it's a problem any more. BTW, Andre has addressed this several times. Bwalker had just been ignoring it and perpetuating the myth.


----------



## Ron660

Over $60 for 4L or 1.05 gallon.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421981
> 
> Over $60 for 4L or 1.05 gallon.


How long does it last you?


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Lol i couldn't afford to use the cocktails you guys use, i would work just to buy fuel, and see no benefit from it.


If burning that much fuel, I wouldn't either! I would use something like Bailey's Synthetic, Lucas, or Yamalube.


----------



## porsche965

All fun stuff. I believe that the viscosity of an oil greatly determines the delivery ability of an Mtronic saw fuel to combustion chamber. 

Ported saws need the strongest oil possible at the highest flow rate for maximum HP and longevity. Well all saws for that matter I guess. 

Ultra is $57 a gallon plus tax FYI.


----------



## porsche965

For the price and profile Baileys Woodland Pro is a good buy in my opinion.


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> For the price and profile Baileys Woodland Pro is a good buy in my opinion.


I've used quite a lot of it and have no complaints.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> If burning that much fuel, I wouldn't either! I would use something like Bailey's Synthetic, Lucas, or Yamalube.


Its not so much the oil but the race fuel would be a killer.


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> How long does it last you?


 Probably a year!


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

So what has everyone come up with for the #1 oil???? I feel like a retard just using ultra @ 32:1


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't know whether its #1 or not but Maxima K2/Super M or Lucas for me, its readily available and i can get it for the best price.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lol where do you dig this crap up? I'll take my chances[emoji6]


----------



## KG441c

R50 is good for me @ 11$ per l if buying it by the 4l jug


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> well I'd use lucas 32:1 before I used k2 or super m. just not worth the risk, when i can just use lucas.


Feel free to use whatever you want.


----------



## Moparmyway

Time's Standing Stihl said:


> So what has everyone come up with for the #1 oil????


1. 800 off road
2. R50(only in 2nd due to smell)
3. Lucas


----------



## blsnelling

I think it's a mistake to throw R50 out. We have far too many positive experiences documented here to deny it. 

Too thick to get into all the areas of a saw? I don't understand. The are two crank bearings, two rod bearings, and a cylinder wall. I can't remotely imagine that being an issue.

Glazing? Is that even possible on a NiSi plated cylinder?

With that said, I'm most interested in:
800 2T
R50
H1-R

710
Super M


----------



## blsnelling

Honestly, I think this needs tested on more than one model. You've already shown a huge difference in how a 660 and 660 respond.

Both. A stock saw doesn't have near the demands a ported one does. My vote would be your stock 661, a ported 661, and a ported 660/461/460.


----------



## porsche965

I like the process of elimination. 

Even if it makes what I've done successfully for years not as good.

My thought is that a lower viscosity oil will stand out but not by much. A Dyno test would be great!


----------



## Trx250r180

has anyone tried this ,guy at the bike shop said was good stuff


----------



## blsnelling

It would appear, at least in MTronic saws, that a stock saw will respond very differently from even a muffler modded saw. Why this is I have no idea. I can't see it being an issue with the ability to supply fuel mix. MTronic is nothing more than a standard carb with an electronic H needle.


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> has anyone tried this ,guy at the bike shop said was good stuff


IIRC, Redline is one that is still known to cause rust in the bottom end.


----------



## porsche965

A 362c is one of the most oil/ratio sensitive saws I've ever run stock. You know almost at idle if things are going to go well or not. 

Then there is the question of electronic or manual saws. I would suspect the electronic saws take the tuning bias away to some extent.


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> IIRC, Redline is one that is still known to cause rust in the bottom end.


Friend of mine was sponsored by them ,they had him running 64 to 1 in his cr125 ,he was a pro supercross rider at the time ,never had a oil failure at 64 to 1 .


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> this thread was created to find the best oil. Not about "use whatever I want". Your concerns when choosing an oil seem to be solely based on price and availability.
> 
> Furthermore the physical and chemical properties of super m, k2 and lucas are vastly different between the 3. Which you don't seem concerned about at all.
> 
> "where do I dig up this crap" I'm trying to find the best oil. That is what this thread is about. If it was about using whatever...then you'd have 20 different posts of everyone saying well I've used this for years and it's great and they carry it locally so it's cheap and that's what I buy.


Good luck in your search finding the best for every situation and application....I'm all out of Maxima so I'm using Lucas again for right now anyways. I used the last little bit of K2 i had and wanted to try Super M and its now gone. Would i use it again? Probably.

And yes price and availability is important to me using a gallon to a gallon and a half of it a month.


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> Friend of mine was sponsored by them ,they had him running 64 to 1 in his cr125 ,he was a pro supercross rider at the time ,never had a oil failure at 64 to 1 .


He never gave it time to rust  Again, application is everything.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Good luck in your search finding the best for every situation and application....I'm all out of Maxima so I'm using Lucas again for right now anyways. I used the last little bit of K2 i had and wanted to try Super M and its now gone. Would i use it again? Probably.
> 
> And yes price and availability is important to me using a gallon to a gallon and a half of it a month.


You should buy Bailey's Synthetic when they have free shipping!


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'll just end up using Lucas again....i always do, i guess maybe thats telling me something


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> I'll just end up using Lucas again....i always do, i guess maybe thats telling me something


Our saws don't care as much as we do


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> Our saws don't care as much as we do


Imagine if they could talk


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> You should buy Bailey's Synthetic when they have free shipping!


Who formulates the bailys synthetic?


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Imagine if they could talk


"Just give me some stinking fuel already!"


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Who formulates the bailys synthetic?


Is it Spectrum? Something like that, lol.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Is it Spectrum? Something like that, lol.


Bailys ad says the same as a big European saw manufacteurs oil?


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Is it Spectrum? Something like that, lol.


Spectrum Corporations of Tennessee. Same as Dolmar/Makita synthetic and Poulan Pro Synthetic


----------



## KG441c

http://www.spectrumcorporation.com/


----------



## mdavlee

I'll pull a couple mufflers off shortly. These saws have sat fir 4-5 weeks now. I'm just curious


----------



## RonL

I lean towards using full synthetic ester 2T oils for several reasons. They are polar, they offer greater shear value, they can be formulated to combust at the right temperature, and they can be formulated to burn cleaner. For these reasons I believe that they will give me better long term protection, which for me is the most important factor.

That being said, I believe there are many synthetic blends that can provide yeoman service to the vast majority of users. We are uber fanatical here, but I think the vast majority of users would not notice the difference. The problem with synthetic blends is that the base stock can be any mixture, and since the Castrol suit, highly refined mineral oils can be classified as synthetic ( another reason I focused on full synthetic esters ).

Between the equipment manufacturers, the oil producers, and the independent oil raters, I would suspect that there has been tens of thousands of hours of research done on this subject. And is continuing to be done. By chemists and engineers that have spent their careers immersed in this subject. I suspect that the research done by manufacturers that is made available is filtered through marketing. And EPA mandates. I would think that the engineering divisions of any of the oil producers and bottlers would know how to produce an oil that is suitable to the particular demand. The producers of oil formulate oils to a price point. They also produce "boutique" oils that are probably cutting edge. Whether or not it is worth it to you is your decision.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> I've got 3 661s and a 660 ... u wanna port 1 of the 661 and the 660 ?


I might have to send you my ported 660 if I can't find time to test. I'm only interested in 710, 800 off-road, and R50 compared at 32:1 and 40:1. Not just performance but also film strength. The Motul rep did say 710 might be a little thin at 40:1 in a ported saw turning over 10K in the cut and pushing over 210psi.


----------



## RonL

Because several of the respected builders on this site have indicated that built 390XP's can be problematic, I would like to hear from people who have used built 390XP's for an extended length of time. What oil at what ratio.


----------



## blsnelling

RonL said:


> Because several of the respected builders on this site have indicated that built 390XP's can be problematic, I would like to hear from people who have used built 390XP's for an extended length of time. What oil at what ratio.


That would include stock 372s and 390s.


----------



## mdavlee

RonL said:


> Because several of the respected builders on this site have indicated that built 390XP's can be problematic, I would like to hear from people who have used built 390XP's for an extended length of time. What oil at what ratio.


Send Canadiancarguy a message. I don't know if he'll respond on here or not. He had a thread a while back that was interesting. 

Couple piston pictures I found. The one was run with 1.5 quarts of R50 and then 800 after that. The 800 starting cleaning the piston crown. Saw was tuned to 13.8k and would do 11k or so in the cut. The other is a 395 that was here and I can't remember how much run time on it. It was R50 I'm pretty sure.


----------



## KenJax Tree

https://www.motul.com/gb/en/products/oils-lubricants/510-2t--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> so far my list to test - includes lucas, 2r, 710, 800 off road and h1r. I did have k2 and super m. But k2 and super m contain PIB. Polybutene
> 
> something I found on PIB. PIB does contribute to lubricity with “anti-scuffing” properties. The PIB is part of the man-made synthetic molecular structure that inhibits ring seal on engine “break-in” and leads to glazing of the cylinder walls. The reason for this lies in the fact that some of the synthetic molecules “high molecular weight” and chemical compounds (sulfur) cannot combust completely and thereby leave a residue on the cylinder wall. This residue continues to build over time and ‘ eventually prevents the rings from making contact with the cylinder walls leading to blow-by. This condition deteriorates performance and can be corrected only by honing the cylinder walls and installing fresh piston rings or switching to a high quality mineral based lubricant.
> 
> 
> My understanding is that PIB doesn't always contribute to glazing. Depends on how the oil is formulated and for what specific application. ...so do I know that it would hurt a chainsaw? No. But the oil wasn't formulated for my saw.
> 
> And why take the risk when we have other alternatives to choose from, which are likely just as good if not better, without PIB in them.


Polybutaene is basically a polymer, and if I remember correctly a viscosity modifier. Most oils will have some, it's a good thing IMHO. At least that's how I remember it.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> Eliminating R50 as well...
> 
> I know guys have had good results with R50. But the viscosity more than double that of Stihl ultra and husky...oils that were designed for saws. With it being that heavy, the risk is to high for me that it may not flow well enough to all the areas in a saw it needs to. 800 off road at 15 visc at 100c' is as high as I want to go.
> 
> Elminating Stihl Ultra as well - I've used it for years at 50:1 and 45:1 and lately at 40:1. It burns dirty at all of those ratios and according to mastermind it's even worse at 32:1. Carbon build up on the piston head is just going to insulate the piston...keep heat in it. Furthermore the gas coming into the chamber can't cool the top of the piston as well if it has carbon build up on it.
> 
> Eliminating Husky - I don't think anyone would argue on that one !
> 
> Eliminating Amsoil - To much hype and I don't think but a handful would argue with me.
> 
> 
> Eliminating woodland - the make up of lucas looks far better and we have members here using lucas with success. The physical properties are approx the same. ie. viscosity. They are both cheap as well.
> 
> Elminating Shindaiwa - another injector/multipurpose oil which contains PIB
> 
> Eliminating Schaffer's - no one has even mentioned them once on this entire thread.
> 
> 
> *so I think my final test list will be... *
> 
> Injector/Multi Purpose 2t oils -
> lucas
> yamalube 2r
> motul 710
> 
> Premix 2t oils -
> motul 800 off road
> Belray H1R


What happens to oil when it gets hot, it thins out. The viscosity at high temperature simply means it maintains strength at temperature, it doesn't mean it's still thick as molasses. 

So far we only have theories as the why H1R behaves the why it did, but no real answer. We're getting way ahead of ourselves to say The least.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> IIRC, Redline is one that is still known to cause rust in the bottom end.


Well known, Silkolene pro 2 sx as well. Although I had no issues the year I ran it. Smelled like baking cookies too.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> they do yamalube 2R as well
> 
> 
> I know Belray buys the raws and mixes their own. I think Motul does as well. Looks like lucus and klotz do their own.


Motul I believe was one of the first to develop ester base oils. 

Citgo made Yamalube a few years back, now Spectrum blends it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> Honestly, I think this needs tested on more than one model. You've already shown a huge difference in how a 660 and 660 respond.
> 
> Both. A stock saw doesn't have near the demands a ported one does. My vote would be your stock 661, a ported 661, and a ported 660/461/460.


How bout a high revving saw like a 550 or 346


----------



## Andyshine77

RonL said:


> I lean towards using full synthetic ester 2T oils for several reasons. They are polar, they offer greater shear value, they can be formulated to combust at the right temperature, and they can be formulated to burn cleaner. For these reasons I believe that they will give me better long term protection, which for me is the most important factor.
> 
> That being said, I believe there are many synthetic blends that can provide yeoman service to the vast majority of users. We are uber fanatical here, but I think the vast majority of users would not notice the difference. The problem with synthetic blends is that the base stock can be any mixture, and since the Castrol suit, highly refined mineral oils can be classified as synthetic ( another reason I focused on full synthetic esters ).
> 
> Between the equipment manufacturers, the oil producers, and the independent oil raters, I would suspect that there has been tens of thousands of hours of research done on this subject. And is continuing to be done. By chemists and engineers that have spent their careers immersed in this subject. I suspect that the research done by manufacturers that is made available is filtered through marketing. And EPA mandates. I would think that the engineering divisions of any of the oil producers and bottlers would know how to produce an oil that is suitable to the particular demand. The producers of oil formulate oils to a price point. They also produce "boutique" oils that are probably cutting edge. Whether or not it is worth it to you is your decision.


Well said!!


----------



## KG441c

Here is my MM461R with 8 gal. Of sunoco110/87 efree for 98.5 octane @ 32:1 with motul 800t offroad. Its tuned to 14200 and last several tanks was used in 36" wood wot. Exhaust port and piston was wet and oily but the piston top had buildup. The 3rd pic is just wiping the piston top with a rag and WD40. Most of the buildup was soft. Not sure what oil Randy used in it or what Chad used when he dyno it? Last picture is all cleaned and ready to try R50!!


----------



## nitehawk55

My case of Amsoil Saber arrived , I'll be set for a while at 50:1 . Car is getting it's yearly change too .

This thread kind of reminds me about the Seinfeld show about nothing . 

Guys like an oil because it smells good ??!! , that's some important stuff right there !


----------



## KenJax Tree

Its not so much HOW it smells (pleasant or unpleasant) , its how the fumes effect me.


----------



## Andyshine77

nitehawk55 said:


> Guys like an oil because it smells good ??!! , that's some important stuff right there !



Darn right it is.


----------



## Raganr

nitehawk55 said:


> My case of Amsoil Saber arrived , I'll be set for a while at 50:1 . Car is getting it's yearly change too .
> 
> This thread kind of reminds me about the Seinfeld show about nothing .
> 
> Guys like an oil because it smells good ??!! , that's some important stuff right there !



That will be the deciding factor for me as well. Have a few different oils en route and the best smelling oil will win. Have some race gas to mix it with so it should be a buffet for the nose.


----------



## CR500

The fumes are my reason for switching from HP Ultra to a different brand


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I don't think there are corrosives in those oils. Years ago there was an issue with most ester oils in that they are hydroscopic and attract moisture. This would cause rusting of cranks and bearings, leading to failure. Most ester oils now have additives that prevent this. We should do our due diligence and confirm this with each oil, but I don't think it's a problem any more. BTW, Andre has addressed this several times. Bwalker had just been ignoring it and perpetuating the myth.


Its a property of esters. They are poor storage oils, period. And I have never seen a rust preventative in a pre mix oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Then what's a good storage oil?


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> Then what's a good storage oil?


R50 lol


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Its a property of esters. They are poor storage oils, period. And I have never seen a rust preventative in a pre mix oil.


What does Anti-Oxidation protection against rust and corrosion mean?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Its a property of esters. They are poor storage oils, period. And I have never seen a rust preventative in a pre mix oil.


Zinc, Calcium are two of many multi functional additives, that provide corrosion resistance.

Come on man, you don't know what you think you do.


----------



## Flatie

Moparmyway said:


> 1. 800 off road
> 2. R50(only in 2nd due to smell)
> 3. Lucas



Dont forget 710!


----------



## Flatie

blsnelling said:


> I think it's a mistake to throw R50 out. We have far too many positive experiences documented here to deny it.
> 
> Too thick to get into all the areas of a saw? I don't understand. The are two crank bearings, two rod bearings, and a cylinder wall. I can't remotely imagine that being an issue.
> 
> Glazing? Is that even possible on a NiSi plated cylinder?
> 
> With that said, I'm most interested in:
> 800 2T
> R50
> H1-R
> 
> 710
> Super M



I have the same list to this! IMO i wouldve gone with 800 but ole walker talking about the metals in it and its not FD rated has made me lean toward 710. 
I'm looking forward to pictures to show cleanliness of a 710 piston as there hasnt really been much about said oil. 
I do believe motul have some switched on chemists!


----------



## Moparmyway

Flatie said:


> Dont forget 710!





Flatie said:


> I have the same list to this! IMO i wouldve gone with 800 but ole walker talking about the metals in it and its not FD rated has made me lean toward 710.
> I'm looking forward to pictures to show cleanliness of a 710 piston as there hasnt really been much about said oil.
> I do believe motul have some switched on chemists!


Lemme get this straight ..................
You tell me not to forget about an oil, then you ask about it like you never used it 

710 is not on the list due to it being real thin like for injection oil systems ......... it could work


----------



## KenJax Tree

Moparmyway said:


> Lemme get this straight ..................
> You tell me not to forget about an oil, then you ask about it like you never used it


Welcome to AS[emoji1]


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Here is my MM461R with 8 gal. Of sunoco110/87 efree for 98.5 octane @ 32:1 with motul 800t offroad. Its tuned to 14200 and last several tanks was used in 36" wood wot. Exhaust port and piston was wet and oily but the piston top had buildup. The 3rd pic is just wiping the piston top with a rag and WD40. Most of the buildup was soft. Not sure what oil Randy used in it or what Chad used when he dyno it? Last picture is all cleaned and ready to try R50!!View attachment 422060
> View attachment 422061
> View attachment 422062
> View attachment 422063
> View attachment 422064


Looks to me like you've been running quite rich.


----------



## Flatie

KenJax Tree said:


> Welcome to AS[emoji1]



Im doing a sawtroll!!! 

Also RonL made valid points about 710


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Zinc, Calcium are two of many multi functional additives, that provide corrosion resistance.
> 
> Come on man, you don't know what you think you do.


Zinc provides zero protection from corrosion, Calcium does, but the amounts found in two cycle oil are almost useless as a corrosion inhibitor.
And I would say YOU don't know what you think you do..


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Looks to me like you've been running quite rich.


Looks like alot of ash buildup, which is what I would expect..


----------



## KenJax Tree

So whats a good storage oil?


----------



## porsche965

And to think at one time H1R at 32:1 was the be all end all oil.


----------



## CR500

porsche965 said:


> And to think at one time H1R at 32:1 was the be all end all oil.


Then think a good majority of people used to run Stihl orange or silver bottle oil


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Looks to me like you've been running quite rich.


Saw has been rejetted and tuned to 14200 and 4 strokes but cleans up as soon as in the wood


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Looks to me like you've been running quite rich.


If I tune it much more than 14400 it wont 4 stroke


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Looks to me like you've been running quite rich.


I was advised to run the saw between 13800 and 14200 after ported. Ive stayed on the side of 14200 to 14400. Definitely not rich


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Looks like alot of ash buildup, which is what I wood expect..


I agree. Its definitely not rich. Maybe on the side of too lean. Cleans up nicely as soon as it starts cutting and stays off 4 stroke while cutting


----------



## bwalker

Muffler is wet with unburnt oil too.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Muffler is wet with unburnt oil too.


Well whatever folks wanna think. Personally I dont like to work with a saw tuned at 14200 and higher but thats what the piston looked like after 8 gals at 32to1 of 800t. No way around it. Like I said before though alil buildup on the crown dont bother me


----------



## KG441c

KG441c said:


> Well whatever folks wanna think. Personally I dont like to work with a saw tuned at 14200 and higher but thats what the piston looked like after 8 gals at 32to1 of 800t. No way around it. Like I said before though alil buildup on the crown dont bother me


I guess the softer part I wiped away was the ash content and the depoist left that were hard is carbon?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Zinc provides zero protection from corrosion, Calcium does, but the amounts found in two cycle oil are almost useless as a corrosion inhibitor.
> And I would say YOU don't know what you think you do..


Zinc doesn't provide corrosion resistance?? That's a new one.


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> So whats a good storage oil?


I have only seen one brand that sells an oil for storage and break in that says on bottle storage oil


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lucas says it has excellent rust protection during storage.


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> Lucas says it has excellent rust protection during storage.


I thought you meant an oil specifically designed for storage, not just will work for


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> I thought you meant an oil specifically designed for storage, not just will work for


I was responding to bwalker saying oil with zinc won't inhibit rust.


----------



## Homelite410

Flame away here but what is wrong with OEM oil?


----------



## AKDoug

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 421744
> View attachment 421745
> 
> The old Stihl HP Super was JASO-FD but the new HP ultra is FB.


No. Ultra hasn't been tested. That's why it says "meets" FB standards, not "tested" to FB standards.


----------



## AKDoug

Homelite410 said:


> Flame away here but what is wrong with OEM oil?


 Not a damn thing.


----------



## mdavlee

Homelite410 said:


> Flame away here but what is wrong with OEM oil?


The cost and smell for me.


----------



## KG441c

AKDoug said:


> No. Ultra hasn't been tested. That's why it says "meets" FB standards, not "tested" to FB standards.


Which means its not even close to fd in requirements for emissions blockage


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> The cost and smell for me.


Got time testing on go?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Got time testing on go?


I'm going to try. I'll be mowing the yard and stuff so I'll be out making noise any way. I'm going to go downstairs and see what oils I have and maybe mix some up in jars a pint at a time.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I'm going to try. I'll be mowing the yard and stuff so I'll be out making noise any way. I'm going to go downstairs and see what oils I have and maybe mix some up in jars a pint at a time.


Should be interesting comparisons for sure


----------



## porsche965

I like making noise.


----------



## Pud

Homelite410 said:


> Flame away here but what is wrong with OEM oil?


I keep wondering the same thing , over hear stihl and husqvarna will give u 4 years warranty if u buy a couple bottles of there oil with a new saw and 1 year commercial warranty , call it marketing or ripping u off selling overpriced oils or whatever but these companies know alot about chainsaws and if there confident in there oil so am i.
The fallers i talk to tell me they put around 15 litres of fuel a day through 395's 6 days a week for around 7 months a year and will easely get 2 seasons out of a saw , going through 4 or 5 chains a week using nothing but husky xp oil
There saws would probibly do more work in a month than 90% of saws do in a life time and were the ones using motorcross bike oils worrying about saws siezing and a little carbon buildup


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

153 pages wow I think I will stay with what I'm doing. I really think its simple use what you feel comfortable with. We, my brothers and I have used A little sthil oil very little, A lot of Amsoil, couple cases of Shindiwa, any of the saws we have opened up to look at have all looked fine. We have seen none of the carbine build up, like some of the pictures shown. The only saw that I have had a problem with was a Jonsered 2054 I bought new in '93 . I was using OEM Jonsered in it. It carboned up bad. I then started using Amsoil @40:1 problem stopped. I have a quart of Lucas that I am going to try. A friend on here that lives in southwest Mo.that cuts a lot more Wood than most of you says he gets along fine with it.

I think this has been a very interesting thread. I do know Carbon build up is not your friend.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Zinc doesn't provide corrosion resistance?? That's a new one.


Only to you..


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> So whats a good storage oil?


The syn blend oils have an advantage in this regard.


----------



## KG441c

Just ran r50 in a 461 and a 390xp. Ran r2 in a 440 and the r2 was very low odor . R50 doesnt smell near as bad as h1r to my nose


----------



## Homelite410

What are you all paying? I buy 6 pak of 2.5 mix Jonsered oil for 11.49. Is that high? I burn 20 gallons of mix per year.


----------



## KG441c

KG441c said:


> Just ran r50 in a 461 and a 390xp. Ran r2 in a 440 and the r2 was very low odor . R50 doesnt smell near as bad as h1r to my nose


Got to admit the yamalube r2 leaves just as much oil coating as r50 and 800t and was just as clean


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

Homelite410 said:


> What are you all paying? I buy 6 pak of 2.5 mix Jonsered oil for 11.49. Is that high? I burn 20 gallons of mix per year.



Amsoil is about 12 to 14.00 a quart. Seems like the Lucas is in that same range. I also mix it at 32:1 I have a couple ported saws that is what the builders recommended. I run that in all my 2 strokes not keeping several mix jugs. Mike have a great day. Jonsered may have changed there supplier????.


----------



## brockhaskins

Curious what the price is on most these oils. I know some are quite expensive.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Most are $15-$25 a liter


----------



## KG441c

Might be considering the yamalube r2 from what I saw this morning. Exhaust port was wet but muffler was dry and plug light tan . Piston had a tad of oil across it


----------



## KG441c

From a porter this morning that I respect and trust . "I like to see a thin hard carbon across the crown of the piston . Acts as an insulator and helps get rid of heat. "


----------



## Trx250r180

Couple plugs i pulled first is my milling 660 ,32 to 1 h1r ,this plug is same one that came back with my saw after Randy built it ,must be 1 couple years old now ,what are these white deposits from ?





This one is a 440 hybrid ,is running rich but no deposits ,different oil ,i need to lean this out some ,i can feel it rich on response ,this plug was run on h1r ,was sooty ,is starting to clean up with oil brand change


----------



## mdavlee

brockhaskins said:


> Curious what the price is on most these oils. I know some are quite expensive.


$10-20 qyart/liter. Klotz can be bought for $40 or less a gallon. Stihl ultra is $15 6 pack for 1 gallon I believe. It was way high for oil.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Might be considering the yamalube r2 from what I saw this morning. Exhaust port was wet but muffler was dry and plug light tan . Piston had a tad of oil across it


I wouldn't reccomend the stuff if it wasn't good and didn't have a long track record of great performance. A track record longer than any oil mentioned in this thread.


----------



## brockhaskins

Kenjax have you started running super m yet and at what ratio? Thoughts. Sorry if u have already covers this. Have tried keeping up on this thread but missed a bit


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Couple plugs i pulled first is my milling 660 ,32 to 1 h1r ,this plug is same one that came back with my saw after Randy built it ,must be 1 couple years old now ,what are these white deposits from ?
> View attachment 422210
> View attachment 422211
> View attachment 422212
> 
> 
> This one is a 440 hybrid ,is running rich but no deposits ,different oil ,i need to lean this out some ,i can feel it rich on response ,this plug was run on h1r ,was sooty ,is starting to clean up with oil brand change
> View attachment 422213
> View attachment 422214
> View attachment 422215
> View attachment 422216


First plug was run much harder and at steadier throttle. Shows ash deposits. Second one looks a bit rich and ran under less load.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> From a porter this morning that I respect and trust . "I like to see a thin hard carbon across the crown of the piston . Acts as an insulator and helps get rid of heat. "


If the motor is tuned right you will always see this with any oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Out of my 201T with a few hundred hours on it. 40:1 Lucas and about 20-25 tanks of K2 or Super M


----------



## brockhaskins

Thinking of mixing one or the other 36:1 and using in the saws and banshee/bikes. Price difference?


----------



## KenJax Tree

brockhaskins said:


> Thinking of mixing one or the other 36:1 and using in the saws and banshee/bikes. Price difference?


?? Which one and what other one


----------



## brockhaskins

Lucas or super m


----------



## bwalker

One other thing to consider is looking at plugs like this doesn't tell a whole lot about oil performance or correct mixture.
To set mixture by reading a plug you need to do a plug chop with a brand new plug. Then you need to inspect the mixture ring that forms where the porcelain and metal she'll meet. Looking at the nose of the plug doesn't tell you much other than in a very general sense.
Oil performance is best judged by looking at the crown, exhaust port, head and ring land area.


----------



## KenJax Tree

brockhaskins said:


> Lucas or super m


If you buy small its about the same..$10 for a quart of Lucas and $12 for a liter of Super M. Gallons is different i pay $29 for a gallon of Lucas and Super M doesn't come in 1 gallon its 1/2 gallon or 5 gallons. I paid $26 for a half gallon of it. So basically $30 a gallon for Lucas or $52 a gallon for Super M. I see no added benefit using the Super M so its back to Lucas.....again


----------



## RonL

Homelite410 said:


> Flame away here but what is wrong with OEM oil?



WTF!!!!!

If EVERYONE used OEM oils we wouldn't have these oil threads!

Do you want to live in a world with no oil threads?

Seriously though, the state of the art in oil sciences constantly advances. I think it's good to periodically review the advances. If there weren't people constantly questioning the state of the art do you think the OEM's would be pushing the high tech stuff now, or do you think they would be pushing the six packs of high profit margin mineral oil?


----------



## Homelite410

RonL said:


> WTF!!!!!
> 
> If EVERYONE used OEM oils we wouldn't have these oil threads!
> 
> Do you want to live in a world with no oil threads?
> 
> Seriously though, the state of the art in oil sciences constantly advances. I think it's good to periodically review the advances. If there weren't people constantly questioning the state of the art do you think the OEM's would be pushing the high tech stuff now, or do you think they would be pushing the six packs of high profit margin mineral oil?


There is the fire I was accustomed to! Bam!


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> If you buy small its about the same..$10 for a quart of Lucas and $12 for a liter of Super M. Gallons is different i pay $29 for a gallon of Lucas and Super M doesn't come in 1 gallon its 1/2 gallon or 5 gallons. I paid $26 for a half gallon of it. So basically $30 a gallon for Lucas or $52 a gallon for Super M. I see no added benefit using the Super M so its back to Lucas.....again


That seems awful expensive for Super M.


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> If you buy small its about the same..$10 for a quart of Lucas and $12 for a liter of Super M. Gallons is different i pay $29 for a gallon of Lucas and Super M doesn't come in 1 gallon its 1/2 gallon or 5 gallons. I paid $26 for a half gallon of it. So basically $30 a gallon for Lucas or $52 a gallon for Super M. I see no added benefit using the Super M so its back to Lucas.....again



Would yo feel comfortable running lucas in a bike/banshee?


----------



## brockhaskins

Price is important especially in a saw I know for a fact a saw will run a long time/burn a lot of fuel even with bad oil. Would be hard to justify paying double.. buy new saw with savings in oil!


----------



## brockhaskins

I've run super m in banshee with good results but again at double the price hard to justify. Thinking lucas 32:1 - 40:1 in both bike and saws.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Only to you..


Zinc is one he'll of an antioxidant, it's not just used as an AW additive.


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> Price is important especially in a saw I know for a fact a saw will run a long time/burn a lot of fuel even with bad oil. Would be hard to justify paying double.. buy new saw with savings in oil!


Given the fact that most here have difficult tuning a saw correctly and the fact that most aren't using them commercially they would be well served by about any FD/FC oil.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Zinc is one he'll of an antioxidant, it's not just used as an AW additive.


Yes, it is, but even in passenger car motor oils it's found under 1% treat rate. It's even less in the average two cycle oil. Some two cycle oils don't even have zinc present..
So like I said, it's useless as a anti rust additive in a two cycle oil.


----------



## Andyshine77

Again I'm sure Lucas oil works fine, but it's a very thin injector oil. Better options are available at about the same price. Amsoil Dominator, Yamalube R2 and so on.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Again I'm sure Lucas oil works fine, but it's a very thin injector oil. Better options are available at about the same price. Amsoil Dominator, Yamalube R2 and so on.


I agree with that. Have no desire to try it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> That seems awful expensive for Super M.


Yeah i suppose you can get it a little cheaper online, i just wantd to try it.

Bwalker what about Amsoil Dominator? I can get that for the price as Lucas for, $9.99 a quart and its a full synthetic with esters.


----------



## brockhaskins

just ask the same question I was about to. Andy Walker would you consider Dominator superior to Lucas? also curious price per gallon


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Yeah i suppose you can get it a little cheaper online, i just wantd to try it.
> 
> Bwalker what about Amsoil Dominator? I can get that for the price as Lucas for, $9.99 a quart and its a full synthetic with esters.


I would give it a try. Enough people I know have ran it with decent results. If I did I would have to hold my nose..Amsoil as a company is shady IMO.


----------



## huskihl

So. Are all jaso fd/egd rated oils acceptable for use in a saw?


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> So. Are all jaso fd/egd rated oils acceptable for use in a saw?


Yes.


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> just ask the same question I was about to. Andy Walker would you consider Dominator superior to Lucas? also curious price per gallon


Never ran lucas so I can't possibly say, but will say I have no desire to try it.


----------



## brockhaskins

bwalker said:


> Never ran lucas so I can't possibly say, but will say I have no desire to try it.



Any particular reason why?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Bwalker you raced boats right? This is on a quart of Dominator i was given...why is this?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Andyshine77 said:


> Again I'm sure Lucas oil works fine, but it's a very thin injector oil. Better options are available at about the same price. Amsoil Dominator, Yamalube R2 and so on.


I've read on MX forums about guys having rust in the bottom end using Dominator....because it has no rust inhibitors? Google Amsoil Dominator rust and a few different things pop up. Thats why i asked about it here.


----------



## brockhaskins

Dominator color


KenJax Tree said:


> I've read on MX forums about guys having rust in the bottom end using Dominator....because it has no rust inhibitors? Google Amsoil Dominator rust and a few different things pop up. Thats why i asked about it here.



I read same thing on banshee forum


----------



## brockhaskins

Asked about color because seem to remember it not being easy to tell if mixed.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Its very easy to tell, its a dark red like Klotz


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok this **** is getting old ONCE-AND-FOR-ALL which one would you use at 32:1-40:1 for commercial use?


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> Any particular reason why?


I don't like to run injector oils in a pre mix application .


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Bwalker you raced boats right? This is on a quart of Dominator i was given...why is this?View attachment 422258


Maybe because like I have said all along..Esters make poor storage lubricants.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Ok this **** is getting old ONCE-AND-FOR-ALL which one would you use at 32:1-40:1 for commercial use?View attachment 422260


Either of the Maxima oils.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Maybe because like I have said all along..Esters make poor storage lubricants.


What about ester blends?


----------



## KG441c

On the performance side of ratios and viscosity this is the way I think. You can only force x number of oil molecules through a fixed orfice at any given time? H1r / 800t/ r50 makes a saw go leaner at a given tune where the saw was tuned to handle a less viscous fluid(k2,r2, 710). Makes sense why Redbulls saw ran close to Matts saw?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> What about ester blends?


That would depend what they are blended with.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> On the performance side of ratios and viscosity this is the way I think. You can only force x number of oil molecules through a fixed orfice at any given time? H1r / 800t/ r50 makes a saw go leaner at a given tune where the saw was tuned to handle a less viscous fluid(k2,r2, 710). Makes sense why Redbulls saw ran close to Matts saw?


I would lump those other oils in with H1R.. for Instance K2 idles and cuts at the same rpm as yamaha 2r at 32:1, which had the idles and cut at the same rpm as Husky silver bottle at 50:1.


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> I've read on MX forums about guys having rust in the bottom end using Dominator....because it has no rust inhibitors? Google Amsoil Dominator rust and a few different things pop up. Thats why i asked about it here.


IMHO most of the whole rust thing comes down to improper maintenance and lack of use. Run the saw, bike or whatever every few months and rust will never be a problem. Besides saws aren't ran through standing water like MX bikes anyway.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Andyshine77 said:


> IMHO most of the whole rust thing comes down to improper maintenance and lack of use. Run the saw, bike or whatever every few months and rust will never be a problem. Besides saws aren't ran through standing water like MX bikes anyway.


Its not so much my saws those get run everyday all year. Mainly my weedeater, blower, and hedge trimmer during the winter, i use E free gas so i just fill them all the way up, however I do start them periodically during storage.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> IMHO most of the whole rust thing comes down to improper maintenance and lack of use. Run the saw, bike or whatever every few months and rust will never be a problem. Besides saws aren't ran through standing water like MX bikes anyway.


I have had ester oils corrode brass black in days not weeks..it happens.


----------



## mdavlee

I tested 3 oils at 32:1. Videos are uploading and on this wifi I expect 2 hours for all 3. Motul 800 and Klotz super idled at the same rpm around 2800-2850. K2 was higher and more erratic. It bounced from 2900-3100. Motul 800 was tuned to 13.8k before 3 cts and after was 13.9k. Klotz was 13.9k before and 14.3k after. K2 was 14k before and 14.4 after. The K2 was at 14.5k before and I tuned it back down. I haven't timed any videos since they're loading from my phone.


----------



## mdavlee




----------



## blsnelling

Did the saw seem a little down on power with the K2? It kind of sounded that way to me.


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> Did the saw seem a little down on power with the K2? It kind of sounded that way to me.


I kind of thought it felt like it. Need to time those videos here with the stop watch. It got leaner in the 3 cuts and I tached them right after I turned the camera off. It was the only one that really creeped up a lot.

The klotz super smells the best by far. I used it in the 7900 ripping with the mini mill until in the 2nd cut the bar came loose and got the chain a little. I finished by noodling the others with a 34" bar on the 390. Burnt about half a gallon of Super in pump gas doing this.


----------



## mdavlee

Times I got

800
6.31
5.95
5.68

Klotz
5.67
5.51
5.47

K2
5.83
5.54
5.64


----------



## blsnelling

Interesting. Must have just been putting more load when running K2.


----------



## KenJax Tree

So the K2 sounded the slowest but was faster than 800


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> So the K2 sounded the slowest but was faster than 800


Load.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Times I got
> 
> 800
> 6.31
> 5.95
> 5.68
> 
> Klotz
> 5.67
> 5.51
> 5.47
> 
> K2
> 5.83
> 5.54
> 5.64


What does this tell us?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Average times:
800-5.98
Klotz-5.55
K2-5.67


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> Interesting. Must have just been putting more load when running K2.


Could have been. I tried to keep it the same pressure but it could have been more load since it was last. 


KenJax Tree said:


> So the K2 sounded the slowest but was faster than 800


The K2 ended up with the highest tach reading also.


----------



## CR500

Just got done running the 7900 with some K2.... Smell was normal. had to do a slight and when mean slight I mean less than 1/8 turn on the high. (was running R50 before)


Honestly we are splitting hairs with times lol.


Mike would you still run k2 after your tests?


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> What does this tell us?


Not much besides K2 needed more H than the others. The 800 may be thick like H1R but I really would like to have a bigger stick to test in.


----------



## mdavlee

CR500 said:


> Just got done running the 7900 with some K2.... Smell was normal. had to do a slight and when mean slight I mean less than 1/8 turn on the high. (was running R50 before)
> 
> 
> Honestly we are splitting hairs with times lol.
> 
> 
> Mike would you still run k2 after your tests?


Yes.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Not much besides K2 needed more H than the others. The 800 may be thick like H1R but I really would like to have a bigger stick to test in.


Thick had nothing to do with it. The visosity of r50, 800 and h1r is about the same,no?


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Thick had nothing to do with it. The visosity of r50, 800 and h1r is about the same,no?


800 was the thickest when I poured them into the fuel. I had to rinse the container 3 times to get the oil off. 

What do you think caused the slight differences in tune?


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> 800 was the thickest when I poured them into the fuel. I had to rinse the container 3 times to get the oil off.
> 
> What do you think caused the slight differences in tune?


What order did you run the test in?


----------



## mdavlee

Motul was first since it was what I'd been running the saw on. Klotz and then K2 last. I dumped the fuel each time and run it some before going back to test.


----------



## funky sawman

What's the deal with stihls HP black bottle oil, it has higher jaso cert. Anybody use it? it says semi synthetic


----------



## CR500

mdavlee said:


> Yes.


Going to pull the muffler from the 7900 tonight for giggles. lol

For 20 bucks a liter is worth it it IMO


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Motul was first since it was what I'd been running the saw on. Klotz and then K2 last. I dumped the fuel each time and run it some before going back to test.


I suspect that as the test went on the saw became more heat soaked thus the differance in tune.


----------



## mdavlee

CR500 said:


> Going to pull the muffler from the 7900 tonight for giggles. lol
> 
> For 20 bucks a liter is worth it it IMO


At $20 a liter I'll skip it and Motul. Klotz is $11 for a quart.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I suspect that as the test went on the saw became more heat soaked thus the differance in tune.


Could have. The saw got the leanest with the K2 last. I got it warmed up and then tached them. Went to run the test and then checked it before cutting them off again. It was in a time frame of 30 minutes or so.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Super M is $11 a liter and its 60% K2 and 40% idk


----------



## CR500

mdavlee said:


> At $20 a liter I'll skip it and Motul. Klotz is $11 for a quart.



In NY you don't complain lol.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok Mike with the cost aside what would you use.


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> Ok Mike with the cost aside what would you use.


I'd still use klotz Kl200 or R50. The cheapest one and I can't see any real downsides to them. 

I think I have a 40 fuel can with R50 or Kl200 in it. I may test it tomorrow or the next day and I may mix up some H1R. It's just hard to get time to do this all.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I'd still use klotz Kl200 or R50. The cheapest one and I can't see any real downsides to them.
> 
> I think I have a 40 fuel can with R50 or Kl200 in it. I may test it tomorrow or the next day and I may mix up some H1R. It's just hard to get time to do this all.


Appreciate the efforts Mike!


----------



## mdavlee

I may have to give the Yamalube a try. I wish they hadn't closed the Yamaha shop.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Welp my smeller don't like klotz so its either Maxima Super M/K2 or Lucas.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I may have to give the Yamalube a try. I wish they hadn't closed the Yamaha shop.


Mike the oil left looked as good as h1r, 800t, r50. I dont think there is a lack of lubrication with r2 at 32to1 just as bwalker has stated. I think the r2 ran at 32to1 will be the equivalent of 800t or h1r at 40to1


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> Welp my smeller don't like klotz so its either Maxima Super M/K2 or Lucas.



Question is which one. Pros, cons price?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I believe the only con is the price of the K2 $16 a liter


----------



## KG441c

brockhaskins said:


> Question is which one. Pros, cons price?


What about Yamalube r2?


----------



## brockhaskins

Yeah not sure I want to pay that. Almost double lucas. Feeling good with lucas in saw just a little wary to run in the banshee.


----------



## brockhaskins

Thinking find bargain on super m somewhere and run it in both.


----------



## KG441c

brockhaskins said:


> Yeah not sure I want to pay that. Almost double lucas. Feeling good with lucas in saw just a little wary to run in the banshee.


Yamalube r2 is 11 per l if u buy 6 at a time


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'd run Maxima 927 in the Banshee[emoji3]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Welp my smeller don't like klotz so its either Maxima Super M/K2 or Lucas.


Yamalube 2R...thank me latter.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I'd run Maxima 927 in the Banshee[emoji3]


Great idea if your goal is to have pistons that look like this..


----------



## huskihl

I've been running tcw3 forever in dirt bikes, snowmobiles, and saws. And I love the smell of it. Ran out while I was in town and the only thing the store had was amsoil interceptor. Kinda smelled like a race track.



KenJax Tree said:


> Welp my smeller don't like klotz so its either Maxima Super M/K2 or Lucas.


From being on here, I've since learned there may be better oils for my saws. 
I know it says pwc on it but i picked up some of this last night. Jaso fd/egd rated. Purple in color when mixed. Slight tuning changes going from 42:1 with tcw3 to 32:1 with this stuff. Ran 2 tanks through it and I couldn't smell it at all. I have to cut some concrete Monday or Tuesday inside a building. I'll report back on what the "smeller" says after that.
Price wasn't bad at $38/gallon


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> I don't like to run injector oils in a pre mix application .


It specifies it as both though. Does that mean you wouldn't like motul 710?


----------



## bwalker

It's an injector oil. There are better voices for the same price.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Great idea if your goal is to have pistons that look like this..View attachment 422297


Not sure whats going on there but i've used a lot of 927 in different bike a d never saw anything close to that.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> It specifies it as both though. Does that mean you wouldn't like motul 710?


I prefer not to run injector oils. With that said I mail order some 710 before I was aware it was an injector oil too. I will end up.hsing up what I bought bug probaly won't buy more.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Yamalube 2R...thank me latter.


Maybe....there is a Yamaha dealer a few miles away


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Not sure whats going on there but i've used a lot of 927 in different bike a d never saw anything close to that.


Don't know the story either but castor is dirty. Not to mention the fact it doesn't like to stay mixed and shouldn't be used below 40 degrees according to maxima.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> I prefer not to run injector oils. With that said I mail order some 710 before I was aware it was an injector oil too. I will end up.hsing up what I bought bug probaly won't buy more.


Even though they specify for both I assume your saying there still more aimed at injector use. Why don't you like multi use oils?
I will be interested to hear your thoughts on 710.


----------



## KG441c

I should have snapped a few photos of the yamalube r2 in the exhaust port this morning after running. Just as much oil as 800 or r50 and just as clean with very little smell while running. Very responsive and oil mixed well also


----------



## brockhaskins

bwalker said:


> It's an injector oil. There are better voices for the same price.



What is it you don't like about injector oil or oils that state they are for either?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I have seen K2 leave a better coating of oil than 800 when both we're tuned the same


----------



## KenJax Tree

I can get Honda HP2 cheaper than Yamalube...thoughts?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I can get Honda HP2 cheaper than Yamalube...thoughts?


I ran it in my ported yz250 with great results


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> The klotz super smells the best by far.



In low doses I agree, anything more than an occasional whiff and it will make you literally ill.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> In low doses I agree, anything more than an occasional whiff and it will make you literally ill.


I used it in the saws today making the cant. It wasn't too bad with a slight breeze. With no air moving all of them suck to be in the haze when milling.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Mike the oil left looked as good as h1r, 800t, r50. I dont think there is a lack of lubrication with r2 at 32to1 just as bwalker has stated. I think the r2 ran at 32to1 will be the equivalent of 800t or h1r at 40to1


800 is 82% greater in viscosity than Yamalube 2R. So 32:1 Yamalube is equal to 58:1 800 off-road. Or 800 at 32:1 is equal to 6:1 Yamalube if you're comparing thickness.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> 800 is 82% greater in viscosity than Yamalube 2R. So 32:1 Yamalube is equal to 58:1 800 off-road. Or 800 at 32:1 is equal to 6:1 Yamalube if you're comparing thickness.


Sounds good. With all that said I think it boils down to understanding tuning and what the saw actually needs. These 50 weight oils imo are doing one thing better than the 20 weight oils and thats protecting the bottomend but I agree with bwalker that its probably unnecessary. Redbulls saw ran as good as Matts at a higher ratio because the saw with less oil in the mix processed more useable fuel than it could at 32:1 with the thicker oil? Just adding more oil to the fuel doesnt make the saw run richer but just the opposite ! If u dont accomodate with retuning or jetting to process the extra oil in the mix u will actually get more lubrication to the engine with the thinner oils at the same tune? Myself I believe the thinner 20 weight oils at 32to1 will give adequate protection and all around performance and also the topend will operate as it should without drowning it with too much 50 weight oil and impeding combustion? If u use the 50 weight oil at a higher ratio then u diluted the oil with more solvent and end up with a thinner oil anyway? Why not just use an oil that will mix and combust better and protect equally as good to start with? Thats all just my opinion and may be totally wrong but yall fire away!!! Lol!!


----------



## KG441c

Something else to consider. We discuss too much oil causing more heat and resistance in the topend but does too thick of an oil in the bottomend produce too much resistance and in turn heat? The oil is there to keep the bottomend from excessive heat buildup but can too much oil do the opposite?


----------



## porsche965

Doesn't mixing an oil at 32:1 actually cost more per liter than a ratio of 45:1 because the number of tanks is reduced per container?

For example the loggers making their living buying Ultra at $57 per gallon and risking their bearings at 50:1 (which they never seem to replace) are getting 50 gallons of fuel from the container. That's $1.22 per gallon tax included of oil cost. 

I'm not sure I understand how Ultra is so expensive compared to these boutique oils? What am I missing?


----------



## KG441c

My Ford FX2 truck and Ford Expedition both require 5w-20 oil. Wonder what will happen if I run 15w-50 in them?


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Doesn't mixing an oil at 32:1 actually cost more per liter than a ratio of 45:1 because the number of tanks is reduced per container?
> 
> For example the loggers making their living buying Ultra at $57 per gallon and risking their bearings at 50:1 (which they never seem to replace) are getting 50 gallons of fuel from the container. That's $1.22 per gallon tax included of oil cost.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand how Ultra is so expensive compared to these boutique oils? What am I missing?


If I run ultra at 32:1 then $57 a gallon makes 32 gallons of mix at $1.78 a gallon. 

Klotz is $12 a quart fit a cost of $1.50 a gallon and no headache after


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> What is it you don't like about injector oil or oils that state they are for either?


They typically are pretty thin.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I have seen K2 leave a better coating of oil than 800 when both we're tuned the same


What exactly are you referring to?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I can get Honda HP2 cheaper than Yamalube...thoughts?


Prefer 2R and so did the factory honda team back in the 80's and 90's. They actually pored 2R into honda bottles and used it.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Something else to consider. We discuss too much oil causing more heat and resistance in the topend but does too thick of an oil in the bottomend produce too much resistance and in turn heat? The oil is there to keep the bottomend from excessive heat buildup but can too much oil do the opposite?


I don't think that's definative. Lots of speculation and that's about it.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> 800 is 82% greater in viscosity than Yamalube 2R. So 32:1 Yamalube is equal to 58:1 800 off-road. Or 800 at 32:1 is equal to 6:1 Yamalube if you're comparing thickness.


I am not following you how you make the jump from viscosity to oil ratio..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> viscosities @ 100 c
> 
> R50 - 19.1
> 800 off road - 15.5
> H1R - 12.4


Where did you get these numbers from?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I am not following you how you make the jump from viscosity to oil ratio..


Thats part of the concept of more oil in a bottle of 800t than in a bottle of 2r due to solvents. He will be able to tell u how he figured it when he gets up. Hes sharp!!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> off the yamalube 2R MSDS! it was weird...why would they be listed there of all places!??!?!? I don't know man!
> 
> Your the oil god here. where do you think!


Obviously. . Reason I asked is the test methods for viscosity are all over the place for the oils I have looked up. This makes a comparison difficult, no?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Thats part of the concept of more oil in a bottle of 800t than in a bottle of 2r due to solvents. He will be able to tell u how he figured it when he gets up. Hes sharp!!


Let's assume that 800T doesn't have any solvent, and I am not convinced it doesn't as MSDS don't list all ingrediants and let's also assume that 2R is 10% solvents, which is higher than I believe to be true. I still am not connecting the dots where 2r at 32:1 = 800T at 58:1.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Where did you get these numbers from?


I think klotz actually gives 3 values dont they? A minimum , maximum, and a typical?


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> anything that doesn't confirm 2R as the go to oil is suspect information and clouded by variables. Anything that makes 2R look good is the gospel and shall be preached high above the mountain tops.


I like the 2r also. Give it a try and tell us what u think?


----------



## Deets066

Holy chit this is a long thread!


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Let's assume that 800T doesn't have any solvent, and I am not convinced it doesn't as MSDS don't list all ingrediants and let's also assume that 2R is 10% solvents, which is higher than I believe to be true. I still am not connecting the dots where 2r at 32:1 = 800T at 58:1.


He will be able to tell you. Heck hes a Scienctist for La. DEQ


----------



## mdavlee

Where's the cheapest place to get 2R? I'm going to get some and try it. Heck it may be awesome stuff. I'm willing to try it out against all the others.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Where's the cheapest place to get 2R? I'm going to get some and try it. Heck it may be awesome stuff. I'm willing to try it out against all the others.


I bought a pint at local shop for 7.99. Cheapest ive seen is 11 per l but gotta buy 6


----------



## Mastermind

Deets066 said:


> Holy chit this is a long thread!



Oil is important Deets. 

Makes the motor keep spinning and stuff.


----------



## mdavlee

I found it for $9.59 a quart at moto sport. Free shipping over $50.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> anything that doesn't confirm 2R as the go to oil is suspect information and clouded by variables. Anything that makes 2R look good is the gospel and shall be preached high above the mountain tops.


There are other good oils..just not that sludge you use. I am not even running 2R right now..


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I found it for $9.59 a quart at moto sport. Free shipping over $50.


Mike I think RM ATV had it at a good price point


----------



## porsche965

KG441c said:


> My Ford FX2 truck and Ford Expedition both require 5w-20 oil. Wonder what will happen if I run 15w-50 in them?



Lower fuel mileage.

More wear at start up in cold weather. Fill between the low and high on the dipstick for expansion. Or a shade less than half.


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

bwalker said:


> There are other good oils..just not that sludge you use. I am not even running 2R right now..


So what are you using oh wise one? Inquiring minds would like to know what is the best!


----------



## bwalker

Time's Standing Stihl said:


> So what are you using oh wise one? Inquiring minds would like to know what is the best!


Currently I am trying out Maxima K2.


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

So what were you using that you didn't like the qualities of in order for you to switch to k2?


----------



## bwalker

Time's Standing Stihl said:


> So what were you using that you didn't like the qualities of in order for you to switch to k2?


I was using 2R and am in fact using it still in my bike. It's worked boringly fine for me for years.
Trying K2 for no other reason than curiosity.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> My Ford FX2 truck and Ford Expedition both require 5w-20 oil. Wonder what will happen if I run 15w-50 in them?


I wonder what would happen if you put in more oil than was recommended.[emoji6]


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder what would happen if you put in more oil than was recommended.[emoji6]


Ya and 2x the viscosity


----------



## funky sawman

So after all the hooten and halleren on this thread can we come up with an idea of what the top 3 oils to use are?


----------



## mdavlee

2R, K2, and motul 800 are popular. I guess we could add a poll now.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I am not following you how you make the jump from viscosity to oil ratio..


Yamalube 2R (8.5 viscosity) and 800 off-road is (15.5 viscosity at 100C). Going from 8.5 to 15.5 is an 82% increase. Translate the percent difference to whatever ratio you want for a comparison. Pretty easy.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Yamalube 2R (8.5 viscosity) and 800 off-road is (15.5 viscosity at 100C). Going from 8.5 to 15.5 is an 82% increase. Translate the percent difference to whatever ratio you want for a comparison. Pretty easy.


I think your logic that a increase in viscosity allows you to use less oil flawed, but your welcome to try it on your equipement.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Is $10.99 a quart for Yamalube expensive?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Is $10.99 a quart for Yamalube expensive?


Sounds right! Where at?


----------



## mdavlee

http://www.motosport.com/product?ps...e=&network=g&gclid=CMuGk_XPpcUCFenm7AodUWEAmg


----------



## KenJax Tree

K&W Cycle....2 miles from my house
http://www.kwcycle.com/Yamaha-YAMAL...-OIL-detail.htm?productId=18325485&ez=&pos=12


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> K&W Cycle....2 miles from my house
> http://www.kwcycle.com/Yamaha-YAMAL...-OIL-detail.htm?productId=18325485&ez=&pos=12


13.94 per l at my local shop


----------



## KenJax Tree

I can get a liter of Super M for the same price as a quart of Yamalube. So i'll probably stick with Super M or Lucas for blends and K2 for full synthetic.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I seem to like using semi-synthetic oil better than full synthetic.....so how bout Yamalube 2S $30.99 a gallon.


----------



## KG441c

What is 2s?


----------



## KG441c

Injector oil


----------



## brockhaskins




----------



## brockhaskins

Anybody try this?


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Injector oil


Yeah i see that now, the Yamaha site didn't say that


----------



## brockhaskins

bwalker said:


> They typically are pretty thin.



Thin = bad ? Or too thin = bad?


----------



## funky sawman

KenJax Tree said:


> I seem to like using semi-synthetic oil better than full synthetic.....so how bout Yamalube 2S $30.99 a gallon.


Why do you perfer semi syn???


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I seem to like using semi-synthetic oil better than full synthetic.....so how bout Yamalube 2S $30.99 a gallon.


I would not use 2S in a saw.


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> Thin = bad ? Or too thin = bad?


Its about balance.. Too thick and it combusts like crap. Too thin and it doesn't lubricate as well.


----------



## brockhaskins

bwalker said:


> Its about balance.. too thcik and it combusts like crap. Too thin and it doesnt lubricate as well.



make sense. I'm sure the application matters quite a bit as well.


----------



## brockhaskins

Walker have you seen or used that blue model that I posted a picture of earlier?


----------



## brockhaskins

*marble


----------



## KenJax Tree

funky sawman said:


> Why do you perfer semi syn???


They are a middle ground between mineral and fully synthetic oils in terms of performance, price, quality and durability.

I don't need the absolute best.


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> make sense. I'm sure the application matters quite a bit as well.


It always does.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> They are a middle ground between mineral and fully synthetic oils in terms of performance, price, quality and durability.
> 
> I don't need the absolute best.


I hate to look at it that way. there are semi syn oils that are much better than full syn oils.
About ten years ago i read a long term study done on taxi cabs IIRC where a conventional oil made by Petro Canada out performed a full synthetic made by Mobil. This is a totally unrelated application, but the point is you cant judge a lubricant on what its base oil is comprised of. Everything in lubricants is a series of trade offs.


----------



## nitehawk55

KG441c said:


> My Ford FX2 truck and Ford Expedition both require 5w-20 oil. Wonder what will happen if I run 15w-50 in them?



It would be harder to start in cold weather and you would likely notice a drop in fuel economy .


----------



## funky sawman

And like the jap engines the lifters wont bleed and pump properly due to increased viscosity


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I hate to look at it that way. there are semi syn oils that are much better than full syn oils.


But how does one know which semi synthetics are better than which full synthetics.

We have over 3k and don't even know which full synthetic is best let alone which semi synthetic is better than which synthetic.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> But how does one know which semi synthetics are better than which full synthetics.
> 
> We have over 3k and don't even know which full synthetic is best let alone which semi synthetic is better than which synthetic.


Stop worrying about what is best and run a decent oil thats available.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Stop worrying about what is best and run a decent oil thats available.


I don't worry, need, or want the best, Lucas and Super M are the most available at the best prices. Super M is a little thicker so might provide better protection.


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't worry, need, or want the best, Lucas and Super M are the most available at the best prices. Super M is a little thicker so might provide better protection.



Kinda leaning that way myself. Think I'm gonna try and find good deal on 5 gal of Super m and run in bikes and saws for the summer. probably at like 36:1 since that's what I run the banshee at.


----------



## KenJax Tree

brockhaskins said:


> Kinda leaning that way myself. Think I'm gonna try and find good deal on 5 gal of Super m and run in bikes and saws for the summer. probably at like 36:1 since that's what I run the banshee at.


$35 a gallon


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> $35 a gallon
> View attachment 422423



Looks like we've found a winner!


----------



## brockhaskins

Plus the bucket looks cool. I'm sure that's gonna make me faster.


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't worry, need, or want the best, Lucas and Super M are the most available at the best prices. Super M is a little thicker so might provide better protection.


The next 5 gallons I run I will try Super M out.

How does it compare to K2 in you opinion? like oil left on the skirt of a piston?


----------



## KenJax Tree

From what i can see without tear anything down its looks pretty much the same. I was told by a Maxima tech that 60% of Super M is K2, true or not idk but they smell the same. Super M is $125 cheaper when buying 5 gallons.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> The next 5 gallons I run I will try Super M out.
> 
> How does it compare to K2 in you opinion? like oil left on the skirt of a piston?


Oil left on the skirt is a reflection of oil ratio and nothing else. More oil in your mix, more residual oil in your motor.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> The next 5 gallons I run I will try Super M out.
> 
> How does it compare to K2 in you opinion? like oil left on the skirt of a piston?


Nothing wrong with Super M. It has a pretty good track record.


----------



## porsche965

brockhaskins said:


> Plus the bucket looks cool. I'm sure that's gonna make me faster.




Now it seems like we are getting into a fashion show lol. 

5 gallons of oil is a whole bunch of fun.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Nothing wrong with Super M. It has a pretty good track record.


Based on this 32:1 or 40:1?


----------



## porsche965

Since all this takes accurate measuring what are you all using to measure out the oil for mixing? 

I'm using a glass corningware now. And always swish with gas to get that last of it out. Speaking of which that in itself is telling somewhat of an oils weight I think as some take more effort to get completely diluted and out of the glass.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I use a ratio rite. I add my oil then pour in some gas from the can im mixing into and swish it all around so it mixes then pour it all into the can...no oil left behind.


----------



## porsche965

Add the gas before dumping it out sounds like a good idea, I'll try that.


----------



## KenJax Tree

It got dead in here....i guess nobody wants to talk about our junk semi synthetics[emoji20]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Based on this 32:1 or 40:1?
> View attachment 422455


I don't chose a ratio based on viscosity...


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Since all this takes accurate measuring what are you all using to measure out the oil for mixing?
> 
> I'm using a glass corningware now. And always swish with gas to get that last of it out. Speaking of which that in itself is telling somewhat of an oils weight I think as some take more effort to get completely diluted and out of the glass.


A ratio right that I have had since 1994.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Since all this takes accurate measuring what are you all using to measure out the oil for mixing?
> 
> I'm using a glass corningware now. And always swish with gas to get that last of it out. Speaking of which that in itself is telling somewhat of an oils weight I think as some take more effort to get completely diluted and out of the glass.


Which is another reason a little solvent isn't a bad thing..


----------



## mdavlee

I'm going to try yamalube and maybe lucas next. I've seen the inside of Matt's 7900 and it was run on Lucas with a good coating on the inside.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> I'm going to try yamalube and maybe lucas next. I've seen the inside of Matt's 7900 and it was run on Lucas with a good coating on the inside.


That's just an indication of oil ratio. It's not like one oil coats better than the other.


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> It got dead in here....i guess nobody wants to talk about our junk semi synthetics[emoji20]


Okay what pros do semi synthetics have besides price?

I'm interested lol 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> Okay what pros do semi synthetics have besides price?
> 
> I'm interested lol
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


You are inviting comments that paint with a broad brush.
Quality oils are quality oils regardless of what base oils they use.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> You are inviting comments that paint with a broad brush.
> Quality oils are quality oils regardless of what base oils they use.


Can one PM me some info then lol

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## bwalker

Someone can pm you but they would be making blanket statements at best.
I will point out that the vast majority of JASO FD and ISO EGD oils are synthetic blends.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> Someone can pm you but they would be making blanket statements at best.


Nevermind then haha 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I will point out that the vast majority of JASO FD and ISO EGD oils are synthetic blends.





bwalker said:


> I hate to look at it that way. there are semi syn oils that are much better than full syn oils.


Don't these posts kinda contradict with eachother?


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Its about balance.. Too thick and it combusts like crap. Too thin and it doesn't lubricate as well.


Surely an oil like 710 which is designed for both would be fine? What puts you off an oil designed for both applications?


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> That's just an indication of oil ratio. It's not like one oil coats better than the other.


 Stihl ultra at 50:1 feels dry inside. Any of the bike oils I tried were wet on the inside even when I didn't run 32:1 and was more towards 45:1.


----------



## porsche965

Why would that be? Talking about Ultra or any dry lubricant. (That sounds bad dont it?) And is dry necessarily bad? 

There are spray lubricants that work well like graphite that are dry.


----------



## porsche965

Milling is a whole other world though Mike that's for sure compared to firewood cutting!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Milling i would definitely use 32:1...cutting wood im sure 36:1 or 40:1 is just fine


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Why would that be? Talking about Ultra or any dry lubricant. (That sounds bad dont it?) And is dry necessarily bad?
> 
> There are spray lubricants that work well like graphite that are dry.


Not saying it doesn't work. I'm just not going to test it out milling.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Don't these posts kinda contradict with eachother?


No they dont. One post I am pointing out that most of the highest certified oils are blends and in the other I am pointing out that despite the common thought that full synthetics are better than blends, some blends are better than full synthetics.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Milling is a whole other world though Mike that's for sure compared to firewood cutting!


Tantamount to chainsaw torture..


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Milling i would definitely use 32:1...cutting wood im sure 36:1 or 40:1 is just fine


I consider 20:1 for milling.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Surely an oil like 710 which is designed for both would be fine? What puts you off an oil designed for both applications?


I am sure it would. It's just my preferance to use pre mix oils in premix applications.
One thing to consider with injector oils. Most injector systems Put out no to very little at Idle, but really pour the oil to the motor at full throttle. My last sled was a Skidoo 800 and if I was on the gas all day riding rail bed trails it hand figured out to a bit more oil than 20:1. AS a result of the quantity of oil you have alittle cushion as far as protection goes that you don't with a premix application that is fixed at say 40:1. Of course the newer injector systems on the emissions compliant motors probaly oil less,but they are designed for that with features like crank bearings that are sealed with grease so they aren't lubricated by the injector oil.
FWIW I ran Citgo Sea and Snow(@$8.99 a gallon back then) in the sled above and put 7500 miles on it using that oil only. That particular engine had a poor ring design and ate pistons and rings often in very few miles. I attribute the long life of my motor to the fact it oiled heavy from the factory and that I never fooled with the oiler. Many friends did because they deemed the oil consumption excessive and they paid the price.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Now it seems like we are getting into a fashion show lol.
> 
> 5 gallons of oil is a whole bunch of fun.


Whole thread has become a marketing and popularity show!!! Lol!!


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I consider 20:1 for milling.


I have gone as low as 25:1 in ported saws that I used for milling since I didn't need the biggest saw to cut it.


----------



## porsche965

So who's testing what this next week?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> It got dead in here....i guess nobody wants to talk about our junk semi synthetics[emoji20]


junk? nope the semi syn oil benefits from all fronts


----------



## Deleted member 83629

tried a 545 my dad bought with 800 motul at 32:1 it would kinda of bog and run a little funny WOT.
dumped his husky xp 50:1 back in it and ran it a few more times problem solved.
strange? tried my mix which is lucas at 32:1 it was fine i guess the 2 yr old stocker don't like motul 800.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Its too thick for the AT to compensate for like H1-R. My AT saws seem to run the best at 40:1ish so i gotta run em all on what the AT likes.


----------



## porsche965

KenJax Tree said:


> Its too thick for the AT to compensate for like H1-R. My AT saws seem to run the best at 40:1ish so i gotta run em all on what the AT likes.



My 362c is the same way.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

but it ran fine with lucas at 32:1 is motul really that thick?


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> but it ran fine with lucas at 32:1 is motul really that thick?


Yeah its pretty thick


----------



## Deleted member 83629

besides it not liking the thick oil im mighty impressed over the performance.
the chain is lack luster but the saw is awesome.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Yeah they're nice saws


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> So who's testing what this next week?


I won't get any testing done. Got to work the next few weeks. Might order some 2R and try it when I get time next.


----------



## KenJax Tree

We should be 5k posts and 200 pages into this thread by then[emoji1]


----------



## RonL

I just left a site that was trying to settle a simple problem to come to this site, which is trying to solve an extremely complex problem. The other site was trying to determine the formulation for calculating the number of angels on the head of a pin. This is an oil thread.

I think people are losing sight of the fact that 2 cycle oils are a combination of base oil or oils and an add package. The entire package works together to determine the outcome. Some people are focusing on one aspect of the oil to make conclusions that are not valid when one considers how the entire package, when added to the fuel, works for the designated purpose.

The other thing that one must consider, that was pointed out to me some time ago, is the migration of oil through the the engine. I use the same saw for felling and then limbing the tree. The oil that works well at wide open throttle may foul at idle. The oil that works well at idle may provide inadequate protection at full throttle. When felling and limbing the oil that works well at idle may provide adequate oil protection at full throttle until the excess oil that has collected in the crankcase depletes itself. I am using Motul 710 2T at 32 to 1 currently. If I was milling, where the saw is at full throttle for extended periods of time, I would probably use Motul 800 off road or even Motul on road.


----------



## RonL

As I said before, i think that the oil engineers at any of the top teir oil producers are capable of formulating oils that are comepletely adequate for the purpose at hand. I don't think that the differences between the top tier oil producers is significant enough to state that one is the "best". What is "best" is subject to interpretation. Do due diligence and be happy with your choice.


----------



## Mastermind

Excellent posts Ron.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Let's see what this is all about.....￼what is the magic ratio here[emoji3]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Let's see what this is all about.....￼what is the magic ratio here[emoji3]
> 
> View attachment 422595


Dump that in four gallons..


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Let's see what this is all about.....￼what is the magic ratio here[emoji3]
> 
> View attachment 422595


32 to1. Interested to hear u opinion Chris!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Dump that in four gallons..


So 32:1[emoji6]


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> don't see why it would do anything different than Lucas at 32:1. They are somewhat similar.


U should try it too Redbull


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> 32 to1. Interested to hear u opinion Chris!!


We got some big stuff on Wednesday so the 390xp will get run hard.


----------



## Mastermind

I'd say you are correct J.


----------



## KenJax Tree

What's this stuff smell like? Some of us have a sensitive smeller ya know...


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> What's this stuff smell like? Some of us have a sensitive smeller ya know...


Low odor


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> don't see why it would do anything different than Lucas at 32:1. They are somewhat similar.


And you know this how?
Your guessing again..


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> What's this stuff smell like? Some of us have a sensitive smeller ya know...


Very little smell.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> your such a fan boy. ok kenjax - the truth is you'll see a 3 horse power increase! Will slice through 5' trees like butter.
> 
> bwalker - what are you expecting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh i will. and the others.


Fanboy? That's you..except your pumping junk... I have simply said that 2R is great oil at a decent price with a long track record. I am not currently even using it! But you can bet I will use it as a benchmark..


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> don't see why it would do anything different than Lucas at 32:1. They are somewhat similar.


So viscosity and flashpoint maybe similar, but how about the base oil and additive package? For example, all 10W-30 oils are similar in viscosity, but can be VERY different oils.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> So viscosity and flashpoint maybe similar, but how about the base oil and additive package? For example, all 10W-30 oils are similar in viscosity, but can be VERY different oils.


The worst thing that happened to AS is looking up these MSDS sheets. To much info to be misconstrued by guys like Redbull.


----------



## blsnelling

I still really want to see 800 2T tested at 32:1, 40:1, & 50:1 in both an MTronic saw and a non-MTronic saw. Until then, *we have no idea* if it's the viscosity or the makeup of H1-R that hurts performance at 32:1, based on the tests RedBull has done.


----------



## Raganr

bwalker said:


> Fanboy? That's you..except your pumping junk... I have simply said that 2R is great oil at a decent price with a long track record. I am not currently even using it! But you can bet I will use it as a benchmark..



What are you using?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Raganr said:


> What are you using?


I believe he said he was using Maxima Formula K2.


----------



## KenJax Tree

So once the dust settles I'm not so sure I'm gonna be able to tell which one of the 3 is better protecting than the others. Yamalube doesn't seem any thicker than Lucas and Super M is the thickest of the 3[emoji10]. Im betting all 3 are more than adequate.


----------



## bwalker

Raganr said:


> What are you using?


Maxima K2 now. After I have burnt 20 gallons of mix I will report the results. Should take awhile given the saw I'm using it in is a stock 562XP, which is pretty miserly on fuel.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> So once the dust settles I'm not so sure I'm gonna be able to tell which one of the 3 is better protecting than the others. Yamalube doesn't seem any thicker than Lucas and Super M is the thickest of the 3[emoji10]. Im betting all 3 are more than adequate.


Yamalube 2R has a longer track record and is more widely used than any oil in this thread.


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> Maxima K2 now. After I have burnt 20 gallons of mix I will report the results. Should take awhile given the saw I'm using it in is a stock 562XP, which is pretty miserly on fuel.



I'm planning on burning thru several quarts of 2R before I tear down a saw to inspect. The one saw I'm running the most is a 346 that Wiggs built.


----------



## Trx250r180

We are never going to find the best oil are we ?


----------



## blsnelling

Nope.


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> We are never going to find the best oil are we ?


NEVER[emoji15]


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I'm planning on burning thru several quarts of 2R before I tear down a saw to inspect. The one saw I'm running the most is a 346 that Wiggs built.


What will u look for once its torn down?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> So once the dust settles I'm not so sure I'm gonna be able to tell which one of the 3 is better protecting than the others. Yamalube doesn't seem any thicker than Lucas and Super M is the thickest of the 3[emoji10]. Im betting all 3 are more than adequate.


If thick is what u r lookin for just bypass all the rest and get h1r, 800t, or r50


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180, post: 5346011, member: 56475"]We are never going to find the best oil are we ?[/QUOTE]

Best on a biscuit


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Trx250r180, post: 5346011, member: 56475"]We are never going to find the best oil are we ?



Best on a biscuit[/QUOTE]
Cathead biscuit and La. Mayhaw made from a mess of Mayhaw berries on Saline Creek cant be beat!!!


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Best on a biscuit


Cathead biscuit and La. Mayhaw made from a mess of Mayhaw berries on Saline Creek cant be beat!!![/QUOTE]
Muscadine jelly hard to beat too! Oh yea, with fried squirrels.


----------



## Hedgerow

People still eat those tree rats??


----------



## Ron660

Hedgerow said:


> People still eat those tree rats??


I'd almost rather eat squirrels than deer backstrap. Younger ones are fried and the older/tougher ones go in a gravey or gumbo.


----------



## KG441c

Hedgerow said:


> People still eat those tree rats??


Country boys gotta survive!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> If thick is what u r lookin for just bypass all the rest and get h1r, 800t, or r50


It doesn't matter to me, bwalker said Lucas is too thin and i was just saying Yamalube doesn't seem any thicker.


----------



## KG441c

Folks get serious down South over a mess of fried squirrels. If they know u r cookin squirrel u gotta guard the dinner


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> What will u look for once its torn down?



Carbon buildup, and the quality of that buildup. I don't wanna see oily, or plastic like buildup.......I wanna see flat black, rock hard carbon, with transfer flow tracks. In the bottom end, I wanna see some oil........not dry as hell. Then on the piston skirts I'll be checking for scuffing......and blowby.


----------



## Ron660

Country boy can survive....yea


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> Carbon buildup, and the quality of that buildup. I don't wanna see oily, or plastic like buildup.......I wanna see flat black, rock hard carbon, with transfer flow tracks. In the bottom end, I wanna see some oil........not dry as hell. Then on the piston skirts I'll be checking for scuffing......and blowby.


What if u have the carbon that u want on the crown but no transfer wash?


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Folks get serious down South over a mess of fried squirrels. If they know u r cookin squirrel u gotta guard the dinnerView attachment 422651


 Hey, that guy was my center when I played quaterback in 9th grade!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok i'm picking one of these dammit.....seriously...uh huh i'm really going to[emoji15]


Don't be fooled by the creamsicle stuff in the back there.....i like Husky's


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Ok i'm picking one of these dammit.....seriously...uh huh i'm really going to[emoji15]
> View attachment 422652


Id pick that one right there!!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Id pick that one right there!!!!


Yeah i think i'll go with that one.....don't be fooled by the creamsicle stuff in the back there..... i like Husky's


----------



## Whitespider

Trx250r180 said:


> *We are never going to find the best oil are we ?*


You really didn't expect to, did ya??

It took me 4 days to read all the way through this thread... and not one single thing in this thread has convinced me I should change anything... not the oil brand, not the mix ratio, and not the octane rating of the fuel I mix it with. I stickin' with the idea... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

We (dad and I) use this non-synthetic dino stuff...






We mix it 50:1 with 91 octane e-free gasoline... we use it in all the small two-cycle engines here (around a dozen I'd guess)... none of them have ever broken or even showed signs of oil starvation... we've used it for as long as it's been available... before that we used the 40:1 stuff of the same brand (they changed it to 50:1 in the late 90s??)... the spark plug in my saw was 20 years old when I replaced it on principle (still looks good so I kept it for a spare)... up north at the lake home dad uses the 50:1 pre-mix right from the pump at the bait shop/gas station in everything two-cycle small or large... I'm thinkin' it don't need to be the "best" oil, it only needs to be good enough.

But hey... what do i know??
*


----------



## mdavlee

Well I tried some Super techniplate in the weedeater. It didn't like it at 32:1. I mixed some K2 at 40:1 and used it and it ran much better.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> You really didn't expect to, did ya??
> 
> It took me 4 days to read all the way through this thread... and not one single thing in this thread has convinced me I should change anything... not the oil brand, not the mix ratio, and not the octane rating of the fuel I mix it with. I stickin' with the idea... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
> 
> We (dad and I) use this non-synthetic dino stuff...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We mix it 50:1 with 91 octane e-free gasoline... we use it in all the small two-cycle engines here (around a dozen I'd guess)... none of them have ever broken or even showed signs of oil starvation... we've used it for as long as it's been available... before that we used the 40:1 stuff of the same brand (they changed it to 50:1 in the late 90s??)... the spark plug in my saw was 20 years old when I replaced it on principle (still looks good so I kept it for a spare)... up north at the lake home dad uses the 50:1 pre-mix right from the pump at the bait shop/gas station in everything two-cycle small or large... I'm thinkin' it don't need to be the "best" oil, it only needs to be good enough.
> 
> But hey... what do i know??
> *


Keep hangin' out with all the chainsaw freaks at them GTG and you'll be looking for the latest and greatest whiz bang oil too. I noticed you're already "looking" at new saws since the GTG[emoji1]


----------



## porsche965

So the Manufacturers of Husqvarna and Stihl know nothing. 

They make the saws we all enjoy using but their oils are crap. Can't use them even though they will double a warranty if you buy a six pack that only makes 6 gallons of fuel. What are they thinking? With their crap oils in 6 gallons the saws will blow up and they will have warranty claims until 2020. Right? 

So motorcycle oils are the only oils we should use and the engineers and all their education and experience means nothing. I'm not buying it. I have some very expensive saws and willing to try OE oils to see what happens. Let you all know when the first one blows sky high running their junk oils at 50:1. 

Anyone can run an oil at 32:1 and be safe. If you think your oils are so strong run them at 50:1. It is one of their suggested mix ratios after all. 

Stay tuned.....


----------



## Deleted member 83629

nothing wrong with OEM oils except the price i can buy off brand oil and get the same results
my only excuse is to save $$$


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> If thick is what u r lookin for just bypass all the rest and get h1r, 800t, or r50


Or peanut butter..


----------



## mdavlee

If ultra never gave me a headache I'd probably never switched. The headache that last for 4 hours after using 2 gallons in a couple hours was horrible.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> It doesn't matter to me, bwalker said Lucas is too thin and i was just saying Yamalube doesn't seem any thicker.


Almost 20% thicker IIRC.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What if u have the carbon that u want on the crown but no transfer wash?


That's a indication of leanjetting or dirty oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Or peanut butter..


I don't want thick oil, i just couldn't figure out why you think Lucas is too thin but Yamalube isn't. I'm sure i will indeed like Yamalube....but i also like Lucas and Super M. The price is within $1 on all 3 oils so money isn't gonna be the deciding factor.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

mdavlee said:


> If ultra never gave me a headache I'd probably never switched. The headache that last for 4 hours after using 2 gallons in a couple hours was horrible.


+1 i would rather smell my a$$ than ultra burning


----------



## Deleted member 83629

mdavlee said:


> If ultra never gave me a headache I'd probably never switched. The headache that last for 4 hours after using 2 gallons in a couple hours was horrible.


you try the orange bottle?


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Almost 20% thicker IIRC.


Maybe it is idk, but it didn't seem like it


----------



## porsche965

So the $ is the deal breaker? But don't you have to factor in that you are using more oil at 32:1 vs. 50:1 so the yield isn't as much as you thought it would be? With my discount Ultra for example is mid $50s I believe and makes 50 gallons. So take a $40 gallon and mix at 32:1 what do you have price wise on yield? How many gallons come out of a 32:1 ratio from a gallon? Way less than 50 that's for sure. 

I just think this is way overthinking and most of all trying to outsmart the Manufacturers. How many of you question their engineering and replace all the important OE parts in a saw because the same corporation that makes their oils make the saws and since they don't know what they are doing with lubricants they surely don't know what they heck they are doing with the internal parts. Right? It just gets silly when you think about it. I'm included mixing this and mixing that trying to beat the OE product. We are learning that a viscosity close to the OE appears to be important or Lucas or 710 wouldn't be considered. 

What about the Husky lovers out there? I own quite a few of those too. Is their HP oil junk as well? How many blown saws come in from running HP at 50:1? Just curious. 

What about mixing the OE oils richer than recommended like everyone does the motorcycle oils? What would be wrong with that? Husky HP oil per gallon is in the low $40s for me. Cheap enough. And yet they will slap a 4 year warranty on their saws using this junk oil. Amazing is all I can say. 

My ported saws are faster with a leaner ratio than 32:1 that's for sure.


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> So the Manufacturers of Husqvarna and Stihl know nothing.
> 
> They make the saws we all enjoy using but their oils are crap. Can't use them even though they will double a warranty if you buy a six pack that only makes 6 gallons of fuel. What are they thinking? With their crap oils in 6 gallons the saws will blow up and they will have warranty claims until 2020. Right?
> 
> So motorcycle oils are the only oils we should use and the engineers and all their education and experience means nothing. I'm not buying it. I have some very expensive saws and willing to try OE oils to see what happens. Let you all know when the first one blows sky high running their junk oils at 50:1.
> 
> Anyone can run an oil at 32:1 and be safe. If you think your oils are so strong run them at 50:1. It is one of their suggested mix ratios after all.
> 
> Stay tuned.....


On a stock saw the stock oil is fine 50 to 1 ,i think we have agreed on ,but...........the hopped up saws seem to not last as long at 50 to 1 due to the extra force on bearings from higher compression ,and more heat build up ,so a need for a better oil is needed to make them last long ............Am i on the right track here ??? It is just there is no one right answer which one will work on your saw with your particular mods to be perfect ,because what works best on one ,may not be best for another .So here we are .

The End


----------



## porsche965

mdavlee said:


> If ultra never gave me a headache I'd probably never switched. The headache that last for 4 hours after using 2 gallons in a couple hours was horrible.



Coming from this guy and his milling operation that says a lot to me. Sorry about the headache. It don't bother me at all. Actually nothing bothers me but the smell of Royal Purple smells like a skunk without VP Fuel.


----------



## porsche965

Trx250r180 said:


> On a stock saw the stock oil is fine 50 to 1 ,i think we have agreed on ,but...........the hopped up saws seem to not last as long at 50 to 1 due to the extra force on bearings from higher compression ,and more heat build up ,so a need for a better oil is needed to make them last long ............Am i on the right track here ??? It is just there is no one right answer which one will work on your saw with your particular mods to be perfect ,because what works best on one ,may not be best for another .So here we are .
> 
> The End



TRX, what about just richening up the OE oils? Anyone ever tried that?


----------



## KenJax Tree

How much is a 6 pack of 2.6oz bottles (15.6 total) of Ultra? The pint (16oz.) of Yamalube i bought today was $6.99 and the liter (33.xoz.) of Super M was $11.99, A quart of Lucas is $9.99.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> So the Manufacturers of Husqvarna and Stihl know nothing.
> 
> They make the saws we all enjoy using but their oils are crap. Can't use them even though they will double a warranty if you buy a six pack that only makes 6 gallons of fuel. What are they thinking? With their crap oils in 6 gallons the saws will blow up and they will have warranty claims until 2020. Right?
> 
> So motorcycle oils are the only oils we should use and the engineers and all their education and experience means nothing. I'm not buying it. I have some very expensive saws and willing to try OE oils to see what happens. Let you all know when the first one blows sky high running their junk oils at 50:1.
> 
> Anyone can run an oil at 32:1 and be safe. If you think your oils are so strong run them at 50:1. It is one of their suggested mix ratios after all.
> 
> Stay tuned.....


Alot of guys run 2R in bikes at 50:1. Same goes for motul 800, H1r and R50


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> TRX, what about just richening up the OE oils? Anyone ever tried that?


Husky silver does fine at 32:1.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i can buy lucas oil and it burns as clean if not cleaner than ultra and with my commercial discount of 19.99 per gallon
and lucas doesn't smell like burning plastic or soap.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> On a stock saw the stock oil is fine 50 to 1 ,i think we have agreed on ,but...........the hopped up saws seem to not last as long at 50 to 1 due to the extra force on bearings from higher compression ,and more heat build up ,so a need for a better oil is needed to make them last long ............Am i on the right track here ??? It is just there is no one right answer which one will work on your saw with your particular mods to be perfect ,because what works best on one ,may not be best for another .So here we are .
> 
> The End


Certain stock saws eat up bearings too. Likely because of things like fixed jet carbs and limiter caps making them run too lean. Apparently and it is apparent the average woodtick can't tune a carb to save his life.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> How much is a 6 pack of 2.6oz bottles (15.6 total) of Ultra? The pint (16oz.) of Yamalube i bought today was $6.99 and the liter (33.xoz.) of Super M was $11.99, A quart of Lucas is $9.99.


a 6 pack of ultra is 17.99 here for the 1 gallon mix or the 5 gallon mix 6 pack is 38.99


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> TRX, what about just richening up the OE oils? Anyone ever tried that?


I think the problem that has been discussed with the oem's from what i have read ,and tore down myself ,is they are leave dirtier deposits ,on the inside of the engine ,and a cleaner running engine is trying to be found here ,every logger saw engine i have torn down had real carboned up bearings that had a lot of hours on them running stihl mix ,the 32 to one may cure that washing the engine better ,i do not know ,i have not tried it yet .They protect good enough for most people though and get the job done .


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> So the $ is the deal breaker? But don't you have to factor in that you are using more oil at 32:1 vs. 50:1 so the yield isn't as much as you thought it would be? With my discount Ultra for example is mid $50s I believe and makes 50 gallons. So take a $40 gallon and mix at 32:1 what do you have price wise on yield? How many gallons come out of a 32:1 ratio from a gallon? Way less than 50 that's for sure.
> 
> I just think this is way overthinking and most of all trying to outsmart the Manufacturers. How many of you question their engineering and replace all the important OE parts in a saw because the same corporation that makes their oils make the saws and since they don't know what they are doing with lubricants they surely don't know what they heck they are doing with the internal parts. Right? It just gets silly when you think about it. I'm included mixing this and mixing that trying to beat the OE product. We are learning that a viscosity close to the OE appears to be important or Lucas or 710 wouldn't be considered.
> 
> What about the Husky lovers out there? I own quite a few of those too. Is their HP oil junk as well? How many blown saws come in from running HP at 50:1? Just curious.
> 
> What about mixing the OE oils richer than recommended like everyone does the motorcycle oils? What would be wrong with that? Husky HP oil per gallon is in the low $40s for me. Cheap enough. And yet they will slap a 4 year warranty on their saws using this junk oil. Amazing is all I can say.
> 
> My ported saws are faster with a leaner ratio than 32:1 that's for sure.


Nothing is wrong with Husky silver bottle. I just don't think it's worth 40 per gallon. I would run Citgo air cooled if I was looking for a quality OEM type oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> a 6 pack of ultra is 17.99 here for the 1 gallon mix or the 5 gallon mix 6 pack is 38.99


Thats reason enough not to buy it. But like Mike i get a pounding headache from it. Klotz makes me nauseous.


----------



## Hedgerow

jakewells said:


> i can buy lucas oil and it burns as clean if not cleaner than ultra and with my commercial discount of 19.99 per gallon
> and lucas doesn't smell like burning plastic or soap.


I'm not even sure how Lucas got thrown into the discussion here.. It's too cheap and un-sexy to even get a second look from the high brow oil folks..
But this wood tick burns a bunch of it, cause it's cheap and above all else, on the shelf in quarts at O'Reilly's...
I've been known to tune a carb or two though.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I think the problem that has been discussed with the oem's from what i have read ,and tore down myself ,is they are leave dirtier deposits ,on the inside of the engine ,and a cleaner running engine is trying to be found here ,every logger saw engine i have torn down had real carboned up bearings that had a lot of hours on them running stihl mix ,the 32 to one may cure that washing the engine better ,i do not know ,i have not tried it yet .They protect good enough for most people though and get the job done .


Bearings with carbon 9r black buildup indicates dirt.or saw dust ingestion. Bearings should always be clean.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Thats reason enough not to buy it. But like Mike i get a pounding headache from it. Klotz makes me nauseous.


I love the smell of Klotz! I still run super techniplate in certain situations.


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Thats reason enough not to buy it. But like Mike i get a pounding headache from it. Klotz makes me nauseous.


On a humid day, I can still taste that Klotz super...
It haunts me...


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> I love the smell of Klotz! I still run super techniplate in certain situations.


Yes.. On race day...








Only race day!!!


----------



## porsche965

KenJax Tree said:


> How much is a 6 pack of 2.6oz bottles (15.6 total) of Ultra? The pint (16oz.) of Yamalube i bought today was $6.99 and the liter (33.xoz.) of Super M was $11.99, A quart of Lucas is $9.99.



My cost is around 1.10 per gallon of oil value. Most of us waste $ on vices and things in life way more expensive than a few dollars difference in oil. I only use approximately 40 gallons a year so I'm a lightweight on volume I know.


----------



## porsche965

jakewells said:


> a 6 pack of ultra is 17.99 here for the 1 gallon mix or the 5 gallon mix 6 pack is 38.99



Maybe it's regional in pricing. Here it is $20.45 for 6-2 gallon mix bottles less my 12% discount. But the Gallon is the way to go here in the mid $50s with discount.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i burn 5 gallons of mix per week and it only takes me 1 month and 7 days to blow through a gallon of oil.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> Thats reason enough not to buy it. But like Mike i get a pounding headache from it. Klotz makes me nauseous.


smells like burning plastic to me anyways. echo powerblend got to where it would give me headaches using it.


----------



## porsche965

Nothing gives me headaches like my Ex Wife did.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

when i get tired of a women i get me different one 
they are more expensive than saws but fun to bang


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Well we sure aren't going about this very methodically....
> 
> what about coming up with a list of questions to fire off to the various makers....to qualify if we should even be considering it.





blsnelling said:


> I still really want to see 800 2T tested at 32:1, 40:1, & 50:1 in both an MTronic saw and a non-MTronic saw. Until then, *we have no idea* if it's the viscosity or the makeup of H1-R that hurts performance at 32:1, based on the tests RedBull has done.



This is what needs to happen next, IMHO.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Would pouring them through a coffee filter tell how viscous the mix is? like say H1-R and Yamalube @ 32:1 and watch the rate it goes through the filter. Idk just thinkin'


----------



## porsche965

KenJax Tree said:


> Would pouring them through a coffee filter tell how viscous the mix is? like say H1-R and Yamalube @ 32:1 and watch the rate it goes through the filter. Idk just thinkin'



That would take some time.


----------



## Raganr

Been running 32:1 H1R in canned 92-94 octane ever since I bought my first saw. As I prep for my cutting season, I am going to try H1R at 40:1 and new to me Maxima K2 @ 32:1 and 40:1 with VP C10. Will report my opinion in a few months. I will be lucky to burn all 5 gallons this season so I am a pretty low hour user.







Just out of curiosity and to take a look before changing oil, I pulled the plug and muffler cover off my ported MS460 (I am the original owner so its only seen 32:1 H1R).


----------



## KenJax Tree

I really like K2 but its expensive


----------



## mdavlee

I'm running K2 in VP gas for the 550xp. My dad keeps it and might use 1 gallon a year of mix in it besides when he goes cutting with me. It does seem to run better with less oil. 

I've er placed several cranks in huskies run on 50:1 with oem oils including stihl ultra. I wouldn't trust it for a 372 or 390 at anything less than 40:1. Heck in Australia they specify 25:1 for the 3120.


----------



## Whitespider

A 6-pack of the Stihl "orange" bottle (2½ gallon mix at 50:1) is well under $15 here (don't remember exactly)... that's 15 gallons of fuel, less than an added dollar per gallon. But ya' are paying a premium for the packaging when buyin' the small bottles... it-is-what-it-is. The stuff can be had in quarts, gallons and pails also... making the cost less. Of course, mixin' it 32:1 is gonna' bump the cost... but that's another thing... and another argument.

If a fella is burning 10 gallons of fuel a day I can see where the cost of oil would be a top consideration... but at even 10 gallons a month?? Seriously, how many here burn even 10 gallons a month, every month of the year?? 120 gallons a year?? And where I really shake my head is the guy who'll pay the premium for aviation or race fuel... and then worry about the relatively tiny added cost of oil... really?? I don't buy the fact that "cost" is the driving factor for most guys here... it don't make sense.

Personally, I'll pay the premium for the small bottles. I open it, dump it in the 2½ gallon can, toss it, and fill the can with gasoline... no fuss, no muss, no measuring, done. Heck, I don't even bother to "rinse" the little oil jug, or even get the last dribble out... I just dump and toss.
*


----------



## Ron660

I know a Logger, just retired at 62, that used over 25 gallons of fuel a month. He mixed Stihl HP Ultra at 50:1 in the winter and 40:1 in the summer. His last saw, stock 461, lasted only 5 months on HP ultra at 50:1 before a low-end bearing failed. The Dealer didn't say if the failure was oil related they just gave him a new one.


----------



## Mastermind

If someone runs a saw I ported on 50:1 and it fails........I will not be responsible for it in any way. 

2.56 OZ of oil per gallon is just not enough oil in a ported saw. The jug and piston will likely survive.......but the crankshaft will fail early.


----------



## porsche965

That's one way to get a new saw!


----------



## porsche965

I don't see why any builder should warranty a ported saw. If you don't have your Big Boy pants on don't come out to play.


----------



## Mastermind

porsche965 said:


> I don't see why any builder should warranty a ported saw. If you don't have your Big Boy pants on don't come out to play.



I've never shied away from doing whatever it took to make something "right". Even if I knew it was nothing I did.......

I'm planning on doing this saw thing for as long as I can. Compared to framing houses.....it's a pretty good gig. I'll gladly go over and above to end up with a happy customer.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Sometimes you just gotta take a deep breath, count to potato, and make it right.


----------



## Mastermind

Anyone that has spent their life being self employed understands how it works.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Would pouring them through a coffee filter tell how viscous the mix is? like say H1-R and Yamalube @ 32:1 and watch the rate it goes through the filter. Idk just thinkin'


Or you could look up the viscosity on the msds sheet..


----------



## Pud

mdavlee said:


> I'm running K2 in VP gas for the 550xp. My dad keeps it and might use 1 gallon a year of mix in it besides when he goes cutting with me. It does seem to run better with less oil.
> 
> I've er placed several cranks in huskies run on 50:1 with oem oils including stihl ultra. I wouldn't trust it for a 372 or 390 at anything less than 40:1. Heck in Australia they specify 25:1 for the 3120.


They also tell u anything over 70cc has to be 33:1 also and for ethanol or poor quality fuel to use the hp oil not xp .
Funny about more oil producing more heat with a temp gun all the karri fallers over hear swear that in summer if u dont run 3120's at 25:1 they get vapor lock and u have to refuel them while there still running cant turn them off ect..
Oil prices are the opposite hear also 1 litre of xp / ls+ costs me $13 and i actually bought some H1r a couple of weeks ago and it cost me $45 for a litre


----------



## Pud

Just out of curiousity does anyone use moterex oil at all ? Its pretty much the only oil In the mx scene hear , KTM make there dealers stock it and advertise it pretty hard


----------



## bwalker

Pud said:


> Just out of curiousity does anyone use moterex oil at all ? Its pretty much the only oil In the mx scene hear , KTM make there dealers stock it and advertise it pretty hard


Its great oil.


----------



## Whitespider

Ron660 said:


> *I know a Logger... His last saw, stock 461, lasted only 5 months on HP ultra at 50:1 before a low-end bearing failed.*





Mastermind said:


> *If someone runs a saw I ported on 50:1 and it fails...
> The jug and piston will likely survive.......but the crankshaft will fail early.*


First I'll disqualify my self in sayin' I don't have, and never have had, a ported saw.
But truthfully, the few crank failures I've seen in two-cycle engines were all running ethanol blend fuel.
I have my own (admittedly bias) opinion of why that is... but this ain't an ethanol thread, it's an oil thread. At the same time, oil is mixed with the fuel so I'll just say I find it difficult to expect optimal results after introducing a moisture drawing, powerful solvent into an engine that relies on residual oil for lubrication. In fact... I can see no reason not to expect the worst.
*


----------



## bwalker

Pud said:


> They also tell u anything over 70cc has to be 33:1 also and for ethanol or poor quality fuel to use the hp oil not xp .
> Funny about more oil producing more heat with a temp gun all the karri fallers over hear swear that in summer if u dont run 3120's at 25:1 they get vapor lock and u have to refuel them while there still running cant turn them off ect..
> Oil prices are the opposite hear also 1 litre of xp / ls+ costs me $13 and i actually bought some H1r a couple of weeks ago and it cost me $45 for a litre


The temp increases were very small and could be caused by many different things so let's not jump to conclusions.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> First I'll disqualify my self in sayin' I don't have, and never have had, a ported saw.
> But truthfully, the few crank failures I've seen in two-cycle engines were all running ethanol blend fuel.
> I have my own (admittedly bias) opinion of why that is... but this ain't an ethanol thread, it's an oil thread. At the same time, oil is mixed with the fuel so I'll just say I find it difficult to expect optimal results after introducing a moisture drawing, powerful solvent into an engine that relies on residual oil for lubrication. In fact... I can see no reason not to expect the worst.
> *


Gasoline is a pretty strong solvent too.. The issue with ethanol relates to the fact it attracts water,doesn't stay mixed very well and inhibits combustion in two cycles.
It's very foolish to run anything but premium non ethanol fuel in a two stroke.


----------



## Pud

bwalker said:


> The temp increases were very small and could be caused by many different things so let's not jump to conclusions.


I was thinking along the lines of extral oil tranfering heat to the cooling fins , and also what happens in the real world doesnt always make sense on paper , all ive used for the last 8 or 9 years in bikes has been motorex 2 and 4 stroke i really like it .. Can we all start using it in our saws ?


----------



## bwalker

Pud said:


> I was thinking along the lines of extral oil tranfering heat to the cooling fins , and also what happens in the real world doesnt always make sense on paper , all ive used for the last 8 or 9 years in bikes has been motorex 2 and 4 stroke i really like it .. Can we all start using it in our saws ?


That's one possibility I mentioned about 100 pages back.
No reason you can't use Motorex in a saw.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Gasoline is a pretty strong solvent too...*


Yes... but it ain't a (for lack of a better term) "washdown" solvent. Gasoline is a petroleum distillate that leaves an oily residue behind after evaporation... ethanol is a more powerful solvent that leaves behind a fine layer of moisture on an otherwise near perfectly clean surface.

Just my observation... but...
The two-cycles I've had apart that were running non-ethanol blended fuel have a thick, grease-like coating of lubricant on the internals... those running ethanol blends are noticeably different, much less residual lubricant that's more like vegetable oil.
*


----------



## mdavlee

redbull660 said:


> One question I am going to fire off to these oil makers...
> 
> What is the lowest temp your oil is recommend to be run at (figuring it's already mixed in gas).


Motul 800 is -54°. Some of the Castors are 32°. 

I do know any oil mixed in VP gas smells much better.


----------



## KG441c

Sunoco standard 110 cuts way down on odor also


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> I know a Logger, just retired at 62, that used over 25 gallons of fuel a month. He mixed Stihl HP Ultra at 50:1 in the winter and 40:1 in the summer. His last saw, stock 461, lasted only 5 months on HP ultra at 50:1 before a low-end bearing failed. The Dealer didn't say if the failure was oil related they just gave him a new one.


There was another guy in Arkansas that had about the same luck from a 461.


----------



## KG441c

Sunoco standard 110 cuts way down on odor also


----------



## porsche965

What puts more stress on bearings, increased compression or 50:1 mix? Talking ported saws of course.


----------



## mdavlee

I would think the extra compression would be more stress. Then you add more rpm unloaded and in the cut doesn't help.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Or you could look up the viscosity on the msds sheet..


Not once its mixed with fuel


----------



## bwalker

[QUOTEenJax Tree, post: 5347199, member: 78378"]Not once its fixed with fuel[/QUOTE]
That doesn't matter for a couple reasons. One being that fuel would effect all oils the same, but more importantly the fuel portion of the fuel/oil mix evaporates once it enters the motor depositing the oil. In other words, oil alone lubricates your motor,not fuel/oil mix. As you can imagine fuel/oil mix has very little load carrying ability, so the fuel evaporating and depositing the oil is very important.


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> I would think the extra compression would be more stress. Then you add more rpm unloaded and in the cut doesn't help.


I forgot to tell ya ............ the decomp is leaking in this pic


----------



## porsche965

Wow.


----------



## porsche965

how long would you expect a sAw with that type of compression to last?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> That doesn't matter for a couple reasons. One being that fuel would effect all oils the same,.


Wouldn't the different additives in all the different oils react/respond differently to the same fuel, like VP SEF ?
Also, if all oils were fixed with fuel, why then do some oils exhibit more changes to tuning than others (all fixed at the same ratio)?


----------



## cuttinties

32:1 loads 2-4 of these a day. 1.5-2.5 gallons a day 5-6 days a week, and I don't have any issues.


----------



## Moparmyway

porsche965 said:


> how long would you expect a saw with that type of compression to last?


Depends on how its used, what its used with (oil and fuel wise), how its tuned, etc ......


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Wouldn't the different additives in all the different oils react/respond differently to the same fuel, like VP SEF ?
> Also, if all oils were fixed with fuel, why then do some oils exhibit more changes to tuning than others (all fixed at the same ratio)?


Not from a viscosity standpoint. What I am saying is the viscosity of the mix doesn't matter because mix isn't what lubes the engine. The oil does after the fuel evaporates.
Tuning changes because different oils effect combustion differently.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Are there any MSDS sheets on Yamalube? I can't find one


----------



## bwalker

Here you go.


----------



## Marshy

I'm happy to see this thread is still kickin strong (haven't heard a neigh in a while, must be doin it right) and on it's approach to 175 pages.


----------



## blsnelling

RedBull, are you still planning to test some additional oils, particularly another high viscosity oil?


----------



## Ron660

Whitespider said:


> First I'll disqualify my self in sayin' I don't have, and never have had, a ported saw.
> But truthfully, the few crank failures I've seen in two-cycle engines were all running ethanol blend fuel.
> I have my own (admittedly bias) opinion of why that is... but this ain't an ethanol thread, it's an oil thread. At the same time, oil is mixed with the fuel so I'll just say I find it difficult to expect optimal results after introducing a moisture drawing, powerful solvent into an engine that relies on residual oil for lubrication. In fact... I can see no reason not to expect the worst.
> *


He was using ethanol 87 gas at 50:1 w/hp ultra. And it was stock...not ported.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Motul 800 is -54°. Some of the Castors are 32°.
> 
> I do know any oil mixed in VP gas smells much better.


 Sunoco 110 with Motul smells wonderful.


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> 32:1 loads 2-4 of these a day. 1.5-2.5 gallons a day 5-6 days a week, and I don't have any issues.


 What saw are you using? Is it ported?


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> Are there any MSDS sheets on Yamalube? I can't find one


Here's one to compare.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm not a fan of 800 or H1-R in my saws.....i have 3 to choose from


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> 32:1 loads 2-4 of these a day. 1.5-2.5 gallons a day 5-6 days a week, and I don't have any issues.


 My Logging buddy (aka Monkey Man) said he used an average of 1.5 - 2 gallons of fuel a day. His longest day was over 4 gallons! His favorite logging saw was an 044 with the 440's being next. His buddy liked 372's. I stopped at his job site one day and let him run my ported 660. It put a smile on his face. Even the guy driving the loader had to stop and run it. He said that 660 had more torque than a 300 lb woman.


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm not a fan of 800 or H1-R in my saws.....i have 2 to choose fromView attachment 422790


 800 to thick? Ever try it at 40:1?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> My Logging buddy (aka Monkey Man) said he used an average of 1.5 - 2 gallons of fuel a day. His longest day was over 4 gallons! His favorite logging saw was an 044 with the 440's being next. His buddy liked 372's. I stopped at his job site one day and let him run my ported 660. It put a smile on his face. Even the guy driving the loader had to stop and run it. He said that 660 had more torque than a 300 lb woman.


The 660 is bad azz no doubt. However, found the thing wore me out much faster than a 440 or a 372.


----------



## hardpan

Belray h1r, Motul 800t or 710, Klotz r50, Maxima k2, Lucas, Super m, Yamalube 2r, Baileys Woodland pro, etc.

If I mix 32:1 or 40:1 in non-ethanol gas.
If I tune like Madsens procedure http://www.madsens1.com/saw_carb_tune.htm
If I don't mind losing a couple seconds in each cut.
If cost is no big deal in a non-production application.
If I am not bothered by smell or fumes like milling use.
If I am looking for near maximum long life saws, good starting hot and cold.
If I am a maintenance responsible user (clean filters, sharp chain, good plug, etc.).
Can I be confident in using the oils listed above?
What about the saw manufacturer branded oils with the same parameters?


----------



## blsnelling

Any oil you mentioned will serve you just fine.


----------



## Hedgerow

Ron660 said:


> My Logging buddy (aka Monkey Man) said he used an average of 1.5 - 2 gallons of fuel a day. His longest day was over 4 gallons! His favorite logging saw was an 044 with the 440's being next. His buddy liked 372's. I stopped at his job site one day and let him run my ported 660. It put a smile on his face. Even the guy driving the loader had to stop and run it. He said that 660 had more torque than a 300 lb woman.


B&B Logging here runs 365XT's with Opti 2 at like 70:1...

I advised against it, but they probably didn't listen..


----------



## porsche965

hardpan said:


> Belray h1r, Motul 800t or 710, Klotz r50, Maxima k2, Lucas, Super m, Yamalube 2r, Baileys Woodland pro, etc.
> 
> If I mix 32:1 or 40:1 in non-ethanol gas.
> If I tune like Madsens procedure http://www.madsens1.com/saw_carb_tune.htm
> If I don't mind losing a couple seconds in each cut.
> If cost is no big deal in a non-production application.
> If I am not bothered by smell or fumes like milling use.
> If I am looking for near maximum long life saws, good starting hot and cold.
> If I am a maintenance responsible user (clean filters, sharp chain, good plug, etc.).
> Can I be confident in using the oils listed above?
> What about the saw manufacturer branded oils with the same parameters?


************************
IF you do all those things you are obviously too perfect to be on this site! (Glad you are here) 

Yes you would be fine


----------



## porsche965

Hedgerow said:


> B&B Logging here runs 365XT's with Opti 2 at like 70:1...
> 
> I advised against it, but they probably didn't listen..



Let's see, 32:1 to 70:1. Hmmm. According to this thread every saw they have will be back in your shop with bearing failures. Very shortly. Great for business right? Sell the heck out of that Opti 2!


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm not a fan of 800 or H1-R in my saws.....i have 2 to choose fromView attachment 422790


#1:2R, #2:Super M, #3:Lucas..IMO


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The 660 is bad azz no doubt. However, found the thing wore me out much faster than a 440 or a 372.


 Ever use a 390xp? I have one coming.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Ever use a 390xp? I have one coming.


Logged with a 385 and 395. Ran a 390, but not commercially.


----------



## Hedgerow

porsche965 said:


> Let's see, 32:1 to 70:1. Hmmm. According to this thread every saw they have will be back in your shop with bearing failures. Very shortly. Great for business right? Sell the heck out of that Opti 2!


Their saws are clean and dry inside.. They buy a couple new ones every year. They all die prematurely from various causes.. Including lower end failure..


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> I forgot to tell ya ............ the decomp is leaking in this pic


I think we need to build a head for it to get the compression down a little and keep port timing and squish where we want it.


----------



## Mastermind

I was gifted some oils to try. 

Interesting.......


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I was gifted some oils to try.
> 
> Interesting.......
> 
> View attachment 422803


Blendzall is extremely dirty and keep an eye on it it likes to seperate very fast.


----------



## Mastermind

I was told it would separate at 35F.


----------



## blsnelling

My BIL ran a stock 1988 Banshee on Opti2 @ 100:1. He ran it HARD on the dunes at Silver Lake, circle track racing on the farm, high speed country roads, etc. He gave it no mercy. I didn't replace the crank until maybe 5 years ago. He got >20 years out of the original crank. Blows my mind how he got away with it though. I tried to talk him into something else and he figures why mess with what works.


----------



## blsnelling

I never had an issue with 927 in my built Banshee, even below freezing. I always made sure to shake it good before use and added 1oz of isopropyl alcohol per gallon when it was cold. It's a minor issue IMHO, that's easily handled.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Not from a viscosity standpoint. What I am saying is the viscosity of the mix doesn't matter because mix isn't what lubes the engine. .


It is mix that is metered, so a more viscous oil could allow more fuel to be metered through the carb


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I was told it would separate at 35F.


I have seen it seperate after a few days in the summer.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> It is mix that is metered, so a more viscous oil could allow more fuel to be metered through the carb


Volume of each oil would be the same though, so viscosity alone doesn't effect tuning. A higher viscosity oils inability to combust properly is another story.


----------



## nitehawk55

Going to try running the Amsoil Saber at 40:1 for a while and see how clean the saw stays . 
I think if oil is slobbering out the muffler it's a bit much . I'll see and maybe adjust to 45:1 as well .


----------



## brockhaskins

Just ordered 5 gal. bucket of Super m for 180. Should last the summer + between bikes and saws


----------



## brockhaskins

Banshee top end is fresh 1 tank thru it so will tear it down at the end of the season see how it looks.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> RedBull, are you still planning to test some additional oils, particularly another high viscosity oil?




right now my list to test includes - 

2r
lucas
710
possibly belray si7
800 off road
possibly r50 - the viscosity is too high IMO and I'm guessing it wouldn't be good in winter. So checking with them to see how low of temp in winter we can use it.
H1R - redo with reset.

for sure in the 661. don't have a lot of motivation to do the 660. It takes a lot of time to do things the way I do em. Plus that is approx 3-4 new chains per oil. Plus I gotta find the logs and prep em. So like I said...not a lot of motivations to do the 660 or really anything else.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I never had an issue with 927 in my built Banshee, even below freezing. I always made sure to shake it good before use and added 1oz of isopropyl alcohol per gallon when it was cold. It's a minor issue IMHO, that's easily handled.


927 is only about 20% castor IIRC. Blendzall is 100%. Once it seperate shaking may or may not remix it.
Maxima doesn't reccomend running 927 below 40 degrees I believe.
927 or super techniplate aren't so bad in non powervalves motors if you load them very hard, and jet them spot on.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> 927 is only about 20% castor IIRC.


50-70% per MSDS.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> right now my list to test includes -
> 
> 2r
> lucas
> 710
> possibly belray si7
> 800 off road
> possibly r50 - the viscosity is too high IMO and I'm guessing it wouldn't be good in winter. So checking with them to see how low of temp in winter we can use it.
> H1R - redo with reset.
> 
> for sure in the 661. don't have a lot of motivation to do the 660. It takes a lot of time to do things the way I do em. Plus that is approx 3-4 new chains per oil. Plus I gotta find the logs and prep em. So like I said...not a lot of motivations to do the 660 or really anything else.


I used R50 in the low teens without issue. It does get thick in the bottle at that temperature, so I keep it warm if I was going to mix some fuel.


----------



## porsche965

What brand of blanket do you use Andre?


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I used R50 in the low teens without issue. It does get thick in the bottle at that temperature, so I kept it warm if I was going to mix some fuel.


I wouldn't worry about synthetics dropping out of suspension after mixing. Might shake the can a little harder when mixing any oil in real cold weather.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> What brand of blanket do you use Andre?


Her name is. Well I'll just leave it at that.[emoji6]


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Logged with a 385 and 395. Ran a 390, but not commercially.


Still logging?


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Still logging?


No.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> No.


How long did you log?


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> How long did you log?


4 years November - break up.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

nitehawk55 said:


> Going to try running the Amsoil Saber at 40:1 for a while and see how clean the saw stays .
> I think if oil is slobbering out the muffler it's a bit much . I'll see and maybe adjust to 45:1 as well .



you shouldn't have a problem I run It at 32:1 no problems you will have to re tune your saw.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Where in the U.P. are you from? Who did you log for? I have family that own a logging company and another owns a log home building business up there.


----------



## bwalker

I


KenJax Tree said:


> Where in the U.P. are you from? Who did you log for? I have family that own a logging company and another owns a log home building business up there.


I worked with Leo Grims. It was just him, I and sometimes his cousin along with a JD-440C and a Iron Mule.
Sadly the small outfit running saws is almost extinct up here. Harvesters and feller bunches rule the day.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok...my mom's cousin owned Bigger Logging but he has retired and his son owns Bigger Log Homes in Gould City.


----------



## nitehawk55

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> you shouldn't have a problem I run It at 32:1 no problems you will have to re tune your saw.



I'll see if saws are still running near spec with 40:1 , I have standard saws , M-tronic and auto tune models to compare in the 35-71cc range . A couple will be fresh rebuilds OE 346xp and 357xp .

Won't bother with the 2100 , it won't see much use and I'd run it at 40:1 anyway .


----------



## nitehawk55

redbull660 said:


> right now my list to test includes -
> 
> 2r
> lucas
> 710
> possibly belray si7
> 800 off road
> possibly r50 - the viscosity is too high IMO and I'm guessing it wouldn't be good in winter. So checking with them to see how low of temp in winter we can use it.
> H1R - redo with reset.
> 
> for sure in the 661. don't have a lot of motivation to do the 660. It takes a lot of time to do things the way I do em. Plus that is approx 3-4 new chains per oil. Plus I gotta find the logs and prep em. So like I said...not a lot of motivations to do the 660 or really anything else.



Why are you not testing Amsoil Saber ? , it's JASO FD rated .


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Ok...my mom's cousin owned Bigger Logging but he has retired and his son owns Bigger Log Homes in Gould City.


I live quit aways away from there.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

nitehawk55 said:


> Why are you not testing Amsoil Saber ? , it's JASO FD rated .


It would seem The Amsoil is as readily available as all the other oils tested.


----------



## bwalker

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> It would seem The Amsoil is as readily available as all the other oils tested.


I'd be my last choice just out of principle!


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I'd be my last choice just out of principle!


Cant remember which Amsoil we used for Drag racing our outboards but we used Amsoil in the topend and lower unit and on my boat I gained 300 rpm on the bigend just using thoso 2. I had very good luck with it


----------



## KG441c

KG441c said:


> Cant remember which Amsoil we used for Drag racing our outboards but we used Amsoil in the topend and lower unit and on my boat I gained 300 rpm on the bigend just using thoso 2. I had very good luck with it


Had a very good friend that ran Amsoil in his too. He ran the NPBA circuit with a 17ft Tidecraft bass boat hull with a Nitro charged Mercery 300hp F1 drag motor. 109mph in the .250 at a tad over 10 seconds!!! Lol! Amsoil worked in his motor really well!!


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

KG441c said:


> Cant remember which Amsoil we used for Drag racing our outboards but we used Amsoil in the topend and lower unit and on my boat I gained 300 rpm on the bigend just using thoso 2. I had very good luck with it



Some people just can't handle the truth.


----------



## Stihlman441

What about

Royal Purple 2 Cycle TCW 111 Racing

Physical and Chemical Properties:
Physical State:
Liquid

Color:
P u r p l e

Odor:
Lube Oil

pH:
N e u t r a l

Boiling Range / Point
°F (°C): U n d e t e r m i n e d

Pour Point
°F (°C): <40 (<4.4)

Flash Point (COC)
°F (°C): >260 (>127)

Autoignition Temperature
°F (°C): >600 (>315)

Evaporation Rate (Butyl Acetate):
Negligible

Vapor Pressure (kPa):
< 0 . 1

Percent Volatiles:
N o n e

Density (g/cm
3): >0.83

Flammability:
Not flammable at ambient temp.

OAR Value:
UN

Oxidizing Properties:
N o n e

Water Soluability:
Emulsifiable

Vapor Density:
Greater than Air

IX.


----------



## bwalker

Sometimes I wonder if you guys just wanna find an oil that doesn't work...


----------



## mdavlee

I've run a bunch of oil in saws. Itasca from the gas station, stihl orange bottle, tsc, husky semi synthetic, ultra, all the klotz offerings, h1r, k2, 927, 710, and 800. I've not had any oil failures.


----------



## RiverRat2

Agree!!!!with MDavelee

And I will say this,,, If you like your equipment,,, and intend on getting maximum service life with extended MTBF,,,, (Mean Time Between Failure) no matter what brand you prefer, mix at a ratio lower than 50:1

My Personal preference is 40:1 or 3.2 oz per gallon and in extreme/extended cutting conditions like Milling or flush cutting stumps prior to grinding 32:1 or 4.0 oz per gal. is the ticket


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Sometimes I wonder if you guys just wanna find an oil that doesn't work...


Let me know when you find one that don't work, every oil i've ever used in anything requiring oil has worked and nothing has went KA-BOOM.


----------



## bwalker

Stihlman441 said:


> What about
> 
> Royal Purple 2 Cycle TCW 111 Racing
> 
> Physical and Chemical Properties:
> Physical State:
> Liquid
> 
> Color:
> P u r p l e
> 
> Odor:
> Lube Oil
> 
> pH:
> N e u t r a l
> 
> Boiling Range / Point
> °F (°C): U n d e t e r m i n e d
> 
> Pour Point
> °F (°C): <40 (<4.4)
> 
> Flash Point (COC)
> °F (°C): >260 (>127)
> 
> Autoignition Temperature
> °F (°C): >600 (>315)
> 
> Evaporation Rate (Butyl Acetate):
> Negligible
> 
> Vapor Pressure (kPa):
> < 0 . 1
> 
> Percent Volatiles:
> N o n e
> 
> Density (g/cm
> 3): >0.83
> 
> Flammability:
> Not flammable at ambient temp.
> 
> OAR Value:
> UN
> 
> Oxidizing Properties:
> N o n e
> 
> Water Soluability:
> Emulsifiable
> 
> Vapor Density:
> Greater than Air
> 
> IX.


That's boat oil..not suitable for a saw.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Let me know when you find one that don't work, every oil i've ever used in anything requiring oil has worked and nothing has went KA-BOOM.


Not saying it's possible..


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *...more importantly the fuel portion of the fuel/oil mix evaporates once it enters the motor depositing the oil. In other words, oil alone lubricates your motor,not fuel/oil mix.*


So would most solvents in the oil (maybe not all)... so, in effect, the oil lubricating the engine would not be exactly the same as what gets poured from the bottle.
Most of those "solvents" are chemical components of gasoline.


----------



## Gypo Logger

As long as your mix is emulsifiable your ok.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> So would most solvents in the oil (maybe not all)... so, in effect, the oil lubricating the engine would not be exactly the same as what gets poured from the bottle.
> Most of those "solvents" are chemical components of gasoline.


Depending on their boiling points, yes.


----------



## Trx250r180

Gypo Logger said:


> As long as your mix is emulsifiable your ok.


Now you tell me ..........







Now will you tell me what this means ? ........emulsifiable




These big werds too early before coffee is consumed .


----------



## Gypo Logger

Trx250r180 said:


> Now you tell me ..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now will you tell me what this means ? ........emulsifiable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These big werds too early before coffee is consumed .


Emulsification is the ability of two components to mix together such as oil and water. So as long as your mix has an emulsifier you will never get scoring due to moisture.
It's very similar to the tackifier in your bar lube.


----------



## Trx250r180

Gypo Logger said:


> Emulsification is the ability of two components to mix together such as oil and water. So as long as your mix has an emulsifier you will never get scoring due to moisture.
> It's very similar to the tackifier in your bar lube.


Thank you ,very nice explanation ,hope i am not the only one that learns from this .


----------



## Gypo Logger

Trx250r180 said:


> Thank you ,very nice explanation ,hope i am not the only one that learns from this .


Yes, when buying mix at your Stihl/Husky dealer it's important to ask them if the mix has an emulsifier because they often sub out the mix production off shore to the lowest bidder which has no emulsification. So buyer beware.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Now you tell me ..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now will you tell me what this means ? ........emulsifiable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These big werds too early before coffee is consumed .


I didn't know firewood cutting had gotten this sophisticated.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I've run a bunch of oil in saws. Itasca from the gas station, stihl orange bottle, tsc, husky semi synthetic, ultra, all the klotz offerings, h1r, k2, 927, 710, and 800. I've not had any oil failures.


 That's my question. Has anyone ever experienced an engine failure (low end..top end) due to a certain brand of 2-cycle oil mixed 40:1 or richer?


----------



## Whitespider

Ron660 said:


> *Does adding more oil to your mix lower octane?*


Yes... oil is lower (much lower) in octane than gasoline.
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Yes... oil is lower (much lower) in octane than gasoline.
> *


That's not always true or even often true. Some oils have toluene as a diluent and actually raise octane.


----------



## Whitespider

Ron660 said:


> *That's my question. Has anyone ever experienced an engine failure (low end..top end) due to a certain brand of 2-cycle oil mixed 40:1 or richer?*


In what time period??
I remember in the early 70s many two-cycles used a 16:1 mix, and engine failures were quite common... if I remember correctly, dad's first Arctic Cat snowmobile used "Purple Power" two-cycle oil mixed 24:1 and the crank failed.
My grandfather had an old outboard motor from the late 50s/early 60s that used 30w non-detergent motor oil mixed at 16:1 (I believe)... he'd fill the tank with gas, dump some motor oil in using the 'guess 'n' b'gosh" method, shake it a bit, and pull the rope. We had an old Montgomery-Wards washing machine motor up at the lake home that used the same 30w mixed 8:1 (but we also used the 'guess 'n' b'gosh" method of mixing)... it smoked something horrible and eventually the rod bearing failed.
*


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *That's not always true or even often true. Some oils have toluene as a diluent and actually raise octane.*


*L-O-L *Hardly.
You're trying to tell me that a few drops of toluene (at 114 octane) is enough to raise the octane number of oil (something with an octane number around 30-35) above the gasoline octane number... at best, it would only raise the oil octane a few points, still putting it way below gasoline.
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> *L-O-L *Hardly.
> You're trying to tell me that a few drops of toluene (at 114 octane) is enough to raise the octane number of oil (something with an octane number around 30-35) above the gasoline octane number... at best, it would only raise the oil octane a few points, still putting it way below gasoline.
> *


I am saying you can't say for certainty that oil reduces octane..
And where did you get the 35 octane nunber?
Good oils do not lower octane.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *I am saying you can't say for certainty that oil reduces octane..
> And where did you get the 35 octane nunber?
> Good oils do not lower octane.*


(shrug) Prove me wrong then... that's a challenge.

But let me give you my argument first...
Octane and cetane numbers closely corresponded to the carbon chains in the fuel... shorter carbon chains, higher octane (lower cetane)... longer carbon chains, lower octane (higher cetane).
When crude oil is distilled the different chemicals are separated, each with it's own carbon chain. The distillates used in gasoline are relatively high in octane... and the octane number lowers as you work down from there. Diesel fuel is lower in octane (but higher in cetane) than gasoline... the octane number for diesel fuel works out to maybe around 40 maximum (and that would be some damn low quality diesel). Good quality diesel fuel with a high cetane number would have a octane number well below 30. The distillates used for lubricating oils are some distance below those used for diesel fuel... my statement giving lubricating oil an octane rating of 30-35 is damn generous, and likely way too high.

And as you research, you'll find the the octane number (and carbon chain) of synthetic oils are near identical to dino oil.
Adding oil to gasoline results in a (slightly) lower octane number... the more oil you add, the lower the resulting octane number... it-is-what-it-is.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> (shrug) Prove me wrong then... that's a challenge.
> 
> But let me give you my argument first...
> Octane and cetane numbers closely corresponded to the carbon chains in the fuel... shorter carbon chains, higher octane (lower cetane)... longer carbon chains, lower octane (higher cetane).
> When crude oil is distilled the different chemicals are separated, each with it's own carbon chain. The distillates used in gasoline are relatively high in octane... and the octane number lowers as you work down from there. Diesel fuel is lower in octane (but higher in cetane) than gasoline... the octane number for diesel fuel works out to maybe around 40 maximum (and that would be some damn low quality diesel). Good quality diesel fuel with a high cetane number would have a octane number well below 30. The distillates used for lubricating oils are some distance below those used for diesel fuel... my statement giving lubricating oil an octane rating of 30-35 is damn generous, and likely way too high.
> 
> And as you research, you'll find the the octane number (and carbon chain) of synthetic oils are near identical to dino oil.
> Adding oil to gasoline results in a (slightly) lower octane number... the more oil you add, the lower the resulting octane number... it-is-what-it-is.
> 
> View attachment 423042


The thing your not considering is that most of the oil isnt in the fuel vapor/air charge. Its on the surfaces of the piston, head etc. So, its effects on combustion are different. And we are talking about a ver small percentage of oil in the fuel anyways.
And octane isnt measured by carbon chains. Its measured by a test engine..


----------



## SCHallenger

Octane is an 8 carbon chain. Any carbon chain, shorter or longer, is an organic compound other than octane. As you start with 1 carbon & 4 hydrogens, you have methane, 2 carbons & 7 hydrogens is ethane, & so on up the length of the chain (propane, butane, pentane,etc. until you reach the 8 carbon 18 hydrogen configuration which is octane. Octane levels are determined by the percentage of octane in the fuel. 100% octane would be pure fuel. The "octane rating" can be raised by adding compounds such as tetraethyl lead, or lowered by dilution with other additives.


----------



## bwalker

SCHallenger said:


> Octane is an 8 carbon chain. Any carbon chain, shorter or longer, is an organic compound other than octane. As you start with 1 carbon & 4 hydrogens, you have methane, 2 carbons & 7 hydrogens is ethane, & so on up the length of the chain (propane, butane, pentane,etc. until you reach the 8 carbon 18 hydrogen configuration which is octane. Octane levels are determined by the percentage of octane in the fuel. 100% octane would be pure fuel. The "octane rating" can be raised by adding compounds such as tetraethyl lead, or lowered by dilution with other additives.


As measured by the R+M/2 method..


----------



## blsnelling

It has to be combusted. Otherwise, the crankcase would fill up, or it would all be running out the muffler.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> It has to be combusted. Otherwise, the crankcase would fill up, or it would all be running out the muffler.


yes, but but by the combustion gases coming in contact with the oil, not by being part of the main event other than a small amount.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok i put a gallon of Yamalube 2R mix through today...nothing seemed any different from the others i've been using except the Yamalube does have less smell and its purple.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *The thing your not considering is that most of the oil isnt in the fuel vapor/air charge. Its on the surfaces of the piston, head etc. So, its effects on combustion are different. And we are talking about a ver small percentage of oil in the fuel anyways.*


But... but... but... didn't you post...


> *Some oils have toluene as a diluent and actually raise octane.*


So, which is it??



bwalker said:


> *And octane isnt measured by carbon chains. Its measured by a test engine..*


Actually there's a mathematical formula that can be used to arrive at an approximate (equivalent) octane number for such things as oil that won't "run" a test engine.
*


----------



## Whitespider

blsnelling said:


> *It has to be combusted. Otherwise, the crankcase would fill up, or it would all be running out the muffler.*


Correct...
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> But... but... but... didn't you post...
> 
> So, which is it??
> 
> 
> Actually there's a mathematical formula that can be used to arrive at an approximate (equivalent) octane number for such things as oil that won't "run" a test engine.
> *


The toluene flashes off when it enters the motor, so it would be present with the vaporised fuel in the chamber...
I also know empiracly from running high strung race motors that where very detonation sensitive at 16:1 ratios that it has little to no effect with good oils.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my brain hurts


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *As measured by the R+M/2 method..*


2,2,4-Trimethylpentane (octane), called isooctane (which is technically incorrect) has a MON octane number of 100, and a RON octane number of 100, giving it a R+M/2 number of 100.
*


----------



## Ray Bell

bwalker said:


> As measured by the R+M/2 method..


Gawd how I hated organic chemistry in school. All these chains and valence tables are giving me a headache. I am enjoying this thread though. Has it changed any minds?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i will stick to lucas 2 cycle oil at 32:1 because klotz smells like a over smelly fruit market when i use it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> i will stick to lucas 2 cycle oil at 32:1 because klotz smells like a over smelly fruit market when i use it.


Yamalube does seem like good oil and has less smell than Lucas. My exhaust ports were damp but the mufflers were dry and the piston skirts had a nice coating of oil. I guess the only advantage of Lucas is that its available at O"Reilly's on Sundays if needed.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> i will stick to lucas 2 cycle oil at 32:1 because klotz smells like a over smelly fruit market when i use it.


5 minutes is all i can handle


----------



## CR500

Just curious has anyone tried the "other" oils from Bel-Ray?

like MC-1, SI-7, or SL-2??


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've used MC-1 and it was ok but its really thick and Bel-Ray recommends 50:1


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I've used MC-1 and it was ok but its really thick and Bel-Ray recommends 50:1


They make a semi synthetic....lol


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Yamalube does seem like good oil and has less smell than Lucas. My exhaust ports were damp but the mufflers were dry and the piston skirts had a nice coating of oil. I guess the only advantage of Lucas is that its available at O"Reilly's on Sundays if needed.


I saw the same in my 440 today as you are describing


----------



## Deleted member 83629

CR500 said:


> Just curious has anyone tried the "other" oils from Bel-Ray?
> 
> like MC-1, SI-7, or SL-2??


SI-7 smells a little soapy 
SL-2 is pretty good
bel ray mineral 2t is good but tough to find its rated api tc


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i tried motul 800 at 50:1 in my husqvarna trimmer today it has a cat muffler it had a soapy perfume to it had a oiler exhaust port bone dry muffler and the internals were well coated with oil.
tried the same mix in the autotune 545 of my dads and it showed its butt using it but after letting it warm up it seemed fine.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> SI-7 smells a little soapy
> SL-2 is pretty good
> bel ray mineral 2t is good but tough to find its rated api tc


MC-1 isn't mineral, its full synthetic. In fact i still have some[emoji2]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> MC-1 isn't mineral, its full synthetic. In fact i still have some[emoji2]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i tried MC-1 i dont care for it, its burns a little dirty at 32:1


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> i tried MC-1 i dont care for it, its burns a little dirty at 32:1


Because its way too thick to run the heavy, Bel-Ray recommends only 50:1


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> View attachment 423131


Didn't know they made that....but never really checked either


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im burning some motul 800 at 32:1 in my weedeater and it doesn't mind the thick oils. i noticed the motul is cleaning the exhaust port quite well.
im just getting rid of the mix.


----------



## wigglesworth

Anybody win yet?


----------



## mdavlee

wigglesworth said:


> Anybody win yet?


Not yet. I think it's narrowed down to 5 now.


----------



## Ron660

wigglesworth said:


> Anybody win yet?


I'm not sure what quarter we're in....maybe 3rd. I think halftime were the mayhaw jelly and squirrel pics.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Its baseball season so we're in the 7th inning stretch.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Pretty sure my mind is made up though[emoji6]


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Pretty sure my mind is made up though[emoji6]


R2?


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> Pretty sure my mind is made up though[emoji6]


 When I run out of 800 off-road I might try some Yamalube.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> R2?


Lucas....R2 doesn't come in gallons and i don't see how R2 is really any different than Lucas.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Lucas....R2 doesn't come in gallons and i don't see how R2 is really any different than Lucas.


2R is not an injector oil for starters..


----------



## KG441c




----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> 2R is not an injector oil for starters..




don't see anything specific about injector oil on 2S ...infact it says all purpose! 

2S - says "all purpose 2 stroke oil"

https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=

This technologically advanced semi-synthetic base stock and additive 2-stroke engine oil provides all-season performance and greatly reduces visible smoke. Low deposits and reduced carbon and varnish deposit means longer engine life and greater performance over time. It provides exceptional lubrication in all temperatures, and a special additive maintains flow and prevents “gelling” in sub-zero conditions. 

2R - says "competition 2 stroke oil" 

https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=

A high-performance 2 stroke blend developed to stand up to high temperatures, rigorous demands and stress of competition engines. Special base stocks protect against wear and breakdown, low carbon deposits on pistons, rings and exhaust ports, reduces friction that allows for maximum horsepower.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lucas might be slightly thinner but overall i highly doubt the 2R is any better. Lucas has worked for me so i see no reason to change.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lucas is semi synthetic too.....also just as available and the same price and i can buy it in gallons


----------



## KG441c




----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> don't see anything specific about injector oil on 2S ...infact it says all purpose!
> 
> 2S - says "all purpose 2 stroke oil"
> 
> https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=
> 
> This technologically advanced semi-synthetic base stock and additive 2-stroke engine oil provides all-season performance and greatly reduces visible smoke. Low deposits and reduced carbon and varnish deposit means longer engine life and greater performance over time. It provides exceptional lubrication in all temperatures, and a special additive maintains flow and prevents “gelling” in sub-zero conditions.
> 
> 2R - says "competition 2 stroke oil"
> 
> https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=
> 
> A high-performance 2 stroke blend developed to stand up to high temperatures, rigorous demands and stress of competition engines. Special base stocks protect against wear and breakdown, low carbon deposits on pistons, rings and exhaust ports, reduces friction that allows for maximum horsepower.


2s is an injector oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm not picky Keith[emoji2]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Lucas might be slightly thinner but overall i highly doubt the 2R is any better. Lucas has worked for me so i see no reason to change.


I highly doubt it's even close to the quality of 2R. Lucas might be close to citgo air cooled,which isn't a bad place to be.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> they make a full syn thought that is what you were using. I'll have to check the msds to make sure I have the right one.


----------



## KenJax Tree

The only full synthetic i've used recently is Maxima K2


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> *found this on a msg board...
> 
> So why shouldn't 2R be used in injector systems? Or this just another tricky marketing ploy? *
> 
> Mineral based injector oils usually have a different dilutent makeup. Basically they have to control the pour point to keep the paraffin content of the oil from compromising injector flow at lower temperatures. Lower priced oils tend to have have higher paraffin contents and need greater volumes of dilutent to control low temp flow. *This isn't to say 2R can't be used in an injector*, it's more a case of consideration for these issues may not have been specifically addressed during the design phase.


It probaly could in warm weather.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> I'd have to agree with bwalker on this.
> 
> probability is pretty low that lucas is of the same quality as a racing oil like 2r.


I'm not doubting that in a MX racing application the 2R is the much better choice, but for a chain saw or *** application its gonna do the same thing.

Idk who knows, one is just as available as the other and they're the same price so maybe i'll use 2R or maybe i'll use both[emoji1]


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I'd have to agree with bwalker on this.
> 
> probability is pretty low that lucas is of the same quality as a racing oil like 2r.


Btw Redbull, the guy you quoted is Rich Rohrich. He's forget en more about fuels and oils than I will ever know. He's the one turned me on to both 2R and Mobil mx2t years ago.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Like to get an idea of what everyone thinks things SHOULD look like... I'm guessing there will be some vary different opinions. Or maybe not?
> 
> 
> IF one is running a good oil at the correct mix ratio...
> 
> what should the top of their piston look like?
> 
> how about the piston skirts?
> 
> how about the rings?
> 
> how about just above the ring(s)? (between top ring and top of piston.)
> 
> How about the inside of the muffler?
> 
> How about the exhaust port?


Assuming the engine is tuned properly the piston should have a coating of fine carbon, with no mettalic ash present and a slight wash where the transfers discharge. Cleaner the better for the ring area and exhaust port and the muffler should be bone dry.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Too rich if the muffler is slightly damp?


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> Too rich if the muffler is slightly damp?


Or too heavily mixed.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> Or too heavily mixed.


Its not that i mix 40:1....i do like my work saws a little fatter, maybe they're just a hair too fat i gotta push slightly for them to clean up.


----------



## Trx250r180

I learned the hard way not to use 927 castor in injectors on the kids lt80 ............... 4 top ends later


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Too rich if the muffler is slightly damp?


Or the wrong oil for your use. Or a poorly scavenged motor.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Or too heavily mixed.


I've run 20:1 with done dry exhaust.


----------



## redbull660

this 661 was broken in and run on h1r. This is approx 9-10 tanks. 

exhaust port - slight brownish but still transparent discoloration 

top of piston - very very thin layer...hard to see exactly. There is a difference where the transfers are

my only concern is the area just above the top ring (between piston top and top ring) - some brown. 


Guesses at the ratio i've been running?


----------



## blsnelling

I would expect that to be brown.


----------



## Hedgerow

redbull660 said:


> this 661 was broken in and run on h1r. This is approx 9-10 tanks.
> 
> exhaust port - slight brownish but still transparent discoloration
> 
> top of piston - very very thin layer...hard to see exactly. There is a difference where the transfers are
> 
> my only concern is the area just above the top ring (between piston top and top ring) - some brown.
> 
> 
> Guesses at the ratio i've been running?


4 glugs per gallon?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> this 661 was broken in and run on h1r. This is approx 9-10 tanks.
> 
> exhaust port - slight brownish but still transparent discoloration
> 
> top of piston - very very thin layer...hard to see exactly. There is a difference where the transfers are
> 
> my only concern is the area just above the top ring (between piston top and top ring) - some brown.
> 
> 
> Guesses at the ratio i've been running?


Much too early to say anything.


----------



## Trx250r180

I would turn the H screw 1/8 clockwise


----------



## porsche965

Trx250r180 said:


> I would turn the H screw 1/8 clockwise


If there was a screw....


----------



## KenJax Tree

Could as little as 300-500 rpm be the difference between a slightly damp muffler and dry?


----------



## porsche965

KenJax Tree said:


> Could as little as 300-500 rpm be the difference between a slightly damp muffler and dry?



Or just the ratio in need of tweaking a bit


----------



## KenJax Tree

porsche965 said:


> Or just the ratio in need of tweaking a bit


40:1 with Lucas isn't too much[emoji6]


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> 42:1 thinking I might bump up to 45:1 ? to me it seems just a touch rich?
> 
> 
> question: do u guys think that a muffler mod could play into how much oil I need in the mix?
> 
> I've been running this saw with the opened up muffler (exit port) since day 1.


The more you open the muffler ,the cooler the exh temp will be so yes ,i bet with stock opening you will not have a damp can if you try it .


----------



## porsche965

Wouldn't the Mtronic adjust for any muffler mods?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> 40:1 with Lucas isn't too much[emoji6]


I'd never tweak oil ratio to get a motor to run clean.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> this 661 was broken in and run on h1r. This is approx 9-10 tanks.
> 
> exhaust port - slight brownish but still transparent discoloration
> 
> top of piston - very very thin layer...hard to see exactly. There is a difference where the transfers are
> 
> my only concern is the area just above the top ring (between piston top and top ring) - some brown.
> 
> 
> Guesses at the ratio i've been running?


Piston and rings look dry to me?? No oil film.


----------



## porsche965

redbull660 said:


> 42:1 thinking I might bump up to 45:1 ? to me it seems just a touch rich?
> 
> 
> question: do u guys think that a muffler mod could play into how much oil I need in the mix?
> 
> I've been running this saw with the opened up muffler (exit port) since day 1.


***********

With a thicker quality oil wouldn't you find more HP at 50:1? 

Don't fear, you have the Mtronic management on your side


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> I've been running this saw with the opened up muffler (exit port) since day 1.


----------



## bwalker

Muffler mods can effect scavenging in a negative way if over done.


----------



## KG441c

2r in 440


----------



## KenJax Tree

32:1?


----------



## nitehawk55

porsche965 said:


> Wouldn't the Mtronic adjust for any muffler mods?



This would concern me . I have guys saying modding M-tronic type systems works good or is there an underlying issue that might bite you in the azz at some point in the saws life ?


----------



## porsche965

nitehawk55 said:


> This would concern me . I have guys saying modding M-tronic type systems works good or is there an underlying issue that might bite you in the azz at some point in the saws life ?



Do "those guys" own M-tronic type systems? Or fully modded M-tronic saws? 

I fully trust those engineers with the AT and M-Tronic systems better than myself with that little orange driver. 

How many out there go to great lengths to buy an old truck or car with a carburetor?


----------



## porsche965

Question: Does anyone have a good definition of "run on" on an AT or M-tronic saw after a long cut at WOT? --also known as "run-on."


----------



## porsche965

Back to Oil. So it looks like from Red Bull's pics that "rich" seems to be around 40:1 in a M-tron saw. 

What do we call 32:1 in an M-Tron or AT saw?


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Back to Oil. So it looks like from Red Bull's pics that "rich" seems to be around 40:1 in a M-tron saw.
> 
> What do we call 32:1 in an M-Tron or AT saw?


Slow!!!


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Back to Oil. So it looks like from Red Bull's pics that "rich" seems to be around 40:1 in a M-tron saw.
> 
> What do we call 32:1 in an M-Tron or AT saw?


I don't think Mt has anything with the way his saw looks. MT should work regardless of ratio.


----------



## porsche965

Can't believe I just repped bwalker 

Yes it does. But in a specific way.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Can't believe I just repped bwalker
> 
> Yes it does. But in a specific way.


Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't both AT and MT sample rpm and throttle position and adjust accordingly?
Be nice if they had one more input like a o2 sensor.


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't both AT and MT sample rpm and throttle position and adjust accordingly?
> Be nice if they had one more input like a o2 sensor.


The Husqvarna has a 3rd calculation...
It adds magic pixy dust as needed to make sure it's always faster than the Stihl running next to it..
Not sure how those crazy swede's pulled that one off, but damn, is it ever effective...


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> The Husqvarna has a 3rd calculation...
> It adds magic pixy dust as needed to make sure it's always faster than the Stihl running next to it..
> Not sure how those crazy swede's pulled that one off, but damn, is it ever effective...


No pixy dust. It's called a better designed cylinder.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't both AT and MT sample rpm and throttle position and adjust accordingly?
> Be nice if they had one more input like a o2 sensor.



Or a pyometer.


----------



## bwalker

O2 would be better and I say that based on having had EGT probes and a Race pack on several two strokes.


----------



## nitehawk55

porsche965 said:


> Do "those guys" own M-tronic type systems? Or fully modded M-tronic saws?
> 
> I fully trust those engineers with the AT and M-Tronic systems better than myself with that little orange driver.
> 
> How many out there go to great lengths to buy an old truck or car with a carburetor?





porsche965 said:


> Do "those guys" own M-tronic type systems? Or fully modded M-tronic saws?
> 
> I fully trust those engineers with the AT and M-Tronic systems better than myself with that little orange driver.
> 
> How many out there go to great lengths to buy an old truck or car with a carburetor?



Seems the MT and AT systems work fine in a stock saw , it concerns me a lot if any mod will be causing an unknown issue and I would have to include overly rich oil mixtures with this too....anything richer than 40:1 included . 
With these systems sensing temps , load , fuel mixture , altitude , load...etc. I would have to think changing something could mess with any of this and change how the system is working . 

A car with a carb ? , I sure love the old ones and loved tearing a big 4bbl carb down and rebuilding it back in the day and doing the idle tweak to the idle mixture screws to get them just right 
I was a mechanic before and during the change from point ignition and carbs to solid state ignition and throttle body/sequential injection systems with your ECM controlling it all . It was a somewhat difficult time for the auto tech !!


----------



## porsche965

I've never a problem with AT or Mtronics thus far in ported saws.
Trusting in the process at this point.


----------



## nitehawk55

porsche965 said:


> I've never a problem with AT or Mtronics thus far in ported saws.
> Trusting in the process at this point.



There may not ever be any problems but I'm old school and always felt if it ain't broke........


----------



## porsche965

Nice to play with both!


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't both AT and MT sample rpm and throttle position and adjust accordingly?
> Be nice if they had one more input like a o2 sensor.


I'm sure it adjusts for ambient conditions such as temperature but I wonder if it can adjust for altitude?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm sure it adjusts for ambient conditions such as temperature but I wonder if it can adjust for altitude?


If you think about it, any system that adjusts for temperature would also adjust for altitude as they have a simular effect on tuning. Forget about temp, altitude, humidity, etc. AT doesnt care. It's just holding rpm to a set point in relationship to throttle position. Unless my understanding of the system is way off.
What would be a cool is a strato saw with no rev limiter and a tunable carb or better yet a O2 sensor tied in with AT.


----------



## blsnelling

MTronic simply samples RPMs and adjust the H needle accordingly. It'll pull a little, then see how that affects RPMs, and vice versa. By this manner, it accounts for all conditions, but it fuel, temperature, altitude, porting, muffler mod, etc.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> What would be a cool is a strato saw with no rev limiter and a tunable carb....


That's called a MS441. The early ones had no rev limiter.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> That's called a MS441. The early ones had no rev limiter.


Tunable carb too?
Wasn't that saw a dog?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> MTronic simply samples RPMs and adjust the H needle accordingly. It'll pull a little, then see how that affects RPMs, and vice versa. By this manner, it accounts for all conditions, but it fuel, temperature, altitude, porting, muffler mod, etc.


That's strange it only samples one parameter.


----------



## porsche965

So the viscosity is the variable in which the M-tronic cannot compensate for ? This would explain a lot if so. 

What if Stihl deliberately made their saws to run best on Ultra @ 50:1? Talk about a marketing coo. That would make Amsoil look pretty much like beginners lol. 

So an oil with a profile like Ultra would produce the best results performance wise? Viscosity included?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Tunable carb too?
> Wasn't that saw a dog?


Yes, tuneable carb. Stock they weren't as strong as the MS441C. After porting, they ran fantastic, just as a MS441C does.


----------



## SCHallenger

blsnelling said:


> That's called a MS441. The early ones had no rev limiter.


 How about the early MS261. I do remember you saying you ran into it somewhere "north of 15,000 RPM", but, for all practical purposes, this does not count for much since it shouldn't come into play?!


----------



## blsnelling

I'm trying to remember if the MS261 was rev limited or not. If it was, it was way high where it didn't really matter.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> So the viscosity is the variable in which the M-tronic cannot compensate for ? This would explain a lot if so.
> 
> What if Stihl deliberately made their saws to run best on Ultra @ 50:1? Talk about a marketing coo. That would make Amsoil look pretty much like beginners lol.
> 
> So an oil with a profile like Ultra would produce the best results performance wise? Viscosity included?



We are still dealing with bad information on this whole oil test BS. I know others want to say this, but don't want to cause an uproar. A lot has been said behind the smoke and mirrors. Until the test is preformed by someone who is competent, this meandering thread will continue.


----------



## porsche965

Test away Andre'


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> We are still dealing with bad information on this whole oil test BS. I know others want to say this, but don't want to cause an uproar. A lot has been said behind the smoke and mirrors. Until the test is preformed by someone who is competent, this meandering thread will continue.


I said this 100 pages back...


----------



## porsche965

The real smoke and mirrors is testing a stock saw with 32:1 in a video and then later testing the same saw ported with 32:1 and finding 30% gain. Test the stock saw with OE oil at 50:1 and see what the difference is when it isn't gargling with too much oil, more than it was designed to use. 

That's real smoke and mirrors IMO.


----------



## bwalker

This viscosity thing causing the results with H1R is non sense... the stuff is just crap oil with a track record of causing these sorts of issues.


----------



## SCHallenger

Andyshine77 said:


> We are still dealing with bad information on this whole oil test BS. I know others want to say this, but don't want to cause an uproar. A lot has been said behind the smoke and mirrors. Until the test is preformed by someone who is competent, this meandering thread will continue.



Well, yeah it will, but it's getting to be a little more like fun now, & insults seem to have been forgotten.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> The real smoke and mirrors is testing a stock saw with 32:1 in a video and then later testing the same saw ported with 32:1 and finding 30% gain. Test the stock saw with OE oil at 50:1 and see what the difference is when it isn't gargling with too much oil, more than it was designed to use.
> 
> That's real smoke and mirrors IMO.


Gargling with too much oil,lol...You are barking up the wrong tree with that train of thought.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> This viscosity thing causing the results with H1R is non sense... the stuff is just crap oil with a track record of causing these sorts of issues.


We'll have no evidence of this until another oil like 800 or K2 is tested. That's why I've been pushing for that.


----------



## porsche965

In M-Tron saws that can't be tuned out like the traditional carb there isn't a difference in running 32:1 vs. 50:1? Really? Didn't we have some videos awhile back that proved there was a difference?


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Test away Andre'



I had Inguinal hernia surgery two weeks ago, and wasn't in the best shape the passed few months. Trust me sitting on my ass with the nice weather is the hardest thing to deal with right now. In normal circumstances I would have already tested theses oils and documented the results.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I said this 100 pages back...



You did and so did I 100 times.


----------



## porsche965

OK, Red Bull has spent a lot of $ doing what everyone here seems to think is a BS test. So who is next up with their $ to test the way they think is the appropriate way to test?

Easy to sit on the sidelines. I'm ready to spend $. Anyone else?

We could raise $ from a pool of serious people that would post the closed results to only those willing to buy in and choose a testing agent and buy the saws, chains, oils, etc. Those not interested in spending $ can sit in the dark and wonder and armchair all they want. Like most of us are doing here now.

Let's start with $100 buy in. Any takers? I choose Andre' for the tester. Then when the results are posted he can feel what it is like to have his test called BS. We need one other willing to verify results. Those testing get a free pass of the buy in. Heck, let's go $200. For that we can buy some nice saws to run this test. Sell them off when finished and disperse the funds. Oils, chains, all the expenses we have enjoyed from ONE guy, Red Bull, now can be shared with everyone.

Suggestions?


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> The real smoke and mirrors is testing a stock saw with 32:1 in a video and then later testing the same saw ported with 32:1 and finding 30% gain. Test the stock saw with OE oil at 50:1 and see what the difference is when it isn't gargling with too much oil, more than it was designed to use.
> 
> That's real smoke and mirrors IMO.



I've done this 100's of times so has Brad, Randy, EC, DC, EHP the list goes on. I've out cut ported saws running 32:1 in a stock saw. Sorry the tester is not competent, the saw at the gtg was less than stellar, different fuels were used as well. Not all of the appropriate information has been presented.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> We'll have no evidence of this until another oil like 800 or K2 is tested. That's why I've been pushing for that.


These so called tests are a circle jerk.. many people have noticed the tuning issues and it's noted in the ultralight test posted in this thread many pages back. The issue is real and exists.
Only sawculls would attribute a huge decrease in power by running slightly less oil.


----------



## porsche965

If you have outcut ported saws Andre with stock saws on 32:1 please tell me the porters you have beat so I don't waste my $


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> OK, Red Bull has spent a lot of $ doing what everyone here seems to think is a BS test. So who is next up with their $ to test the way they think is the appropriate way to test?
> 
> Easy to sit on the sidelines. I'm ready to spend $. Anyone else?
> 
> We could raise $ from a pool of serious people that would post the closed results to only those willing to buy in and choose a testing agent and buy the saws, chains, oils, etc. Those not interested in spending $ can sit in the dark and wonder and armchair all they want. Like most of us are doing here now.
> 
> Let's start with $100 buy in. Any takers? I choose Andre' for the tester. Then when the results are posted he can feel what it is like to have his test called BS. We need one other willing to verify results. Those testing get a free pass of the buy in. Heck, let's go $200. For that we can buy some nice saws to run this test. Sell them off when finished and disperse the funds. Oils, chains, all the expenses we have enjoyed ONE guy paying for like Red Bull now can be shared with everyone.
> 
> Suggestions?



I have nothing against Red Bull in any way, this is not personal in any way, and I don't want him to take my critique as an attack. At the same time if I see what I know as bad information, I will say so.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i think fuel quality has a lot to do with the test also because you never know what your getting at the pump 
if you buy pump gas.


----------



## porsche965

So for once and for all, so those who have tested oils over 100 times, don't have to test ever again just how would a scientific test be set up? 

Let's spend some money, big money and do it right. 

Money talks and BS walks as they say. Let's vote on a favorite charity to give the proceeds to from the sale of the oils, chains, chainsaws, etc. I can use the tax deduction this year!


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> If you have outcut ported saws Andre with stock saws on 32:1 please tell me the porters you have beat so I don't waste my $



It's a long list. some even thought my saw was ported.


----------



## porsche965

Love to pay Chad and his Dyno to get in on this testing also.


----------



## porsche965

To save embarrassment send me a PM Andre' on the porters not to use. 30% as claimed from a ported saw is a lot to beat by a stock saw. They must be really bad. Thanks.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

andy must have a piltz saw????


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> To save embarrassment send me a PM Andre' on the porters not to use. 30% as claimed from a ported saw is a lot to beat by a stock saw. They must be really bad. Thanks.



Where do we get 30% 40% and so on? Who is posting these numbers? The builders that's who. Most gains come from a MM and tightening up squish, some guys really don't even grind much anymore.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Love to pay Chad and his Dyno to get in on this testing also.



Now we're making sense.


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> andy must have a piltz saw????



Ahahaha. Over porting can happen, sometimes just bad numbers, the list goes on. I've gone into the same saw more than once to get it running right, sometimes it's nice just to get back to stock lol. Look I'm not after anyone, but I've ran as many duds, as runners, some were my own.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Ahahaha. Over porting can happen, sometimes just bad numbers, the list goes on. I've gone into the same saw more than once to get it running right, sometimes it's nice just to get back to stock lol. Look I'm not after anyone, but I've ran as many duds, as runners, some were my own.


Just like this subject is over simplified, so is porting. Many hacks over the years have ruined saws by plugging in bs numbers. There is more to porting than numbers.


----------



## nitehawk55

porsche965 said:


> OK, Red Bull has spent a lot of $ doing what everyone here seems to think is a BS test. So who is next up with their $ to test the way they think is the appropriate way to test?
> 
> Easy to sit on the sidelines. I'm ready to spend $. Anyone else?
> 
> We could raise $ from a pool of serious people that would post the closed results to only those willing to buy in and choose a testing agent and buy the saws, chains, oils, etc. Those not interested in spending $ can sit in the dark and wonder and armchair all they want. Like most of us are doing here now.
> 
> Let's start with $100 buy in. Any takers? I choose Andre' for the tester. Then when the results are posted he can feel what it is like to have his test called BS. We need one other willing to verify results. Those testing get a free pass of the buy in. Heck, let's go $200. For that we can buy some nice saws to run this test. Sell them off when finished and disperse the funds. Oils, chains, all the expenses we have enjoyed from ONE guy, Red Bull, now can be shared with everyone.
> 
> Suggestions?



Nothing needed here , I'm going to play with the Saber mix from 40;1-50;1 . If I notice anything worth mentioning I'll let you know . I'm not trying racing mixes or any other fancy oils . Saber is a straight forward 2 cycle mix that is JASO FD rated which is supposed to be capable to run up to a 100:1 mix . Some have mentioned in this thread and others they have run it up to that with no issues . Myself I feel at 50:1 it's supplying lots of lubrication and being a full synthetic it'll protect at cold or hotter operating temps and will hold up better to extreams . I want to see a nice sheen of oil on the internal parts , not excess oil slobbering out the muffler , that is simply wasted oil .

And for sure run a high test non ethanol fuel , doesn't have to be av gas or 110 racing fuel , Shell V-power in this area is E-free and fine for use in saws .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Nothing needed here , I'm going to play with the Saber mix from 40;1-50;1 . If I notice anything worth mentioning I'll let you know . I'm not trying racing mixes or any other fancy oils . Saber is a straight forward 2 cycle mix that is JASO FD rated which is supposed to be capable to run up to a 100:1 mix . Some have mentioned in this thread and others they have run it up to that with no issues . Myself I feel at 50:1 it's supplying lots of lubrication and being a full synthetic it'll protect at cold or hotter operating temps and will hold up better to extreams . I want to see a nice sheen of oil on the internal parts , not excess oil slobbering out the muffler , that is simply wasted oil .
> 
> And for sure run a high test non ethanol fuel , doesn't have to be av gas or 110 racing fuel , Shell V-power in this area is E-free and fine for use in saws .


It would be nearly impossible for a 100:1 oil to meet JASO FD. Parts of the test are ran at 10:1 and below and a thick viscous oil or one doped with lots of an zinc AW additives won't pass. In order for a 100:1 oil to wprk it will have to have one of both of these properties.
This is one of the reasons I detest Amsoil. Their marketing is intentionally very misleading.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i feel 50:1 is safe but the only reason i use 32:1 is because i have a mower than burns mix and it doesn't like 50:1 and the carb is non adjustable
my stuff doesn't slobber the mufflers are bone dry and the exhaust port is slightly damp. i dont tune anything pig rich
either i tune it according to the specs in the manual.


----------



## Andyshine77

I find it interesting how much the label on Saber has changed. That 100:1 print sure has gotten small.

Old lable.




New label.


----------



## bwalker

Btw some seem to think that great advancements were made in saw technology ans that they allowed 50:1 to work well. This is false. The piston material, cylinder coatings are basicly 40 year old technology.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I find it interesting how much the label on Saber has changed. That 100:1 print sure has gotten small.
> 
> Old lable.
> 
> View attachment 423320
> 
> 
> New label.
> 
> View attachment 423322


Might as well put BS! on the label....


----------



## mdavlee

If I had home time I'd do more tests. I have access to some bigger trees but hate to cookie up a cherry log. 

I've only had 2 oils that my Echo Weedeater doesn't like and that's H1r and super techniplate. It's a fixed H jet. It really likes Vp gas and K2. It doesn't mind r50, 800, 927, or original techniplate @32:1.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> It would be nearly impossible for a 100:1 oil to meet JASO FD. Parts of the test are ran at 10:1 and below and a thick viscous oil or one dope with lots of an zinc AW additives won't pass.
> This is one of the reasons I detest Amsoil. Their marketing is very misleading.



I have to see proof to say other wise . I was involved in saw testing and the like for Stihl some years back . Even their standard oil mix stood up to 70:1 , this was supplied by Castrol to spec for Stihl and was a joint test by both compaies on several pieces of equipment in the field under tough test conditions , tore down and inspected for any issues....none . 
ANY good oil at a 50:1 mix is suitable for most saws , I can agree on 40:1 for some bigger and modified saws as it may help with the extra lube but this whole thread has pretty much become a bunch of guys obsessing and wondering if the oil and mix ratios they use is OK or not or makes any difference in power . Too many variables can have different outcomes , it's all subject to many things .
Thick mixtures are most likely to cause a saw to lean out then do any good .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> I have to see proof to say other wise . I was involved in saw testing and the like for Stihl some years back . Even their standard oil mix stood up to 70:1 , this was supplied by Castrol to spec for Stihl and was a joint test by both compaies on several pieces of equipment in the field under tough test conditions , tore down and inspected for any issues....none .
> ANY good oil at a 50:1 mix is suitable for most saws , I can agree on 40:1 for some bigger and modified saws as it may help with the extra lube but this whole thread has pretty much become a bunch of guys obsessing and wondering if the oil and mix ratios they use is OK or not or makes any difference in power . Too many variables can have different outcomes , it's all subject to many things .
> Thick mixtures are most likely to cause a saw to lean out then do any good .


I will one up you and say that I could mix up some k2 or 2r at 100:1 and my saw would run just fine. But what happens when you do that day after day, year after year. I know from expiereance in the auto industry that R&D testing is a a poor substitute for track record in the field over time.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> If I had home time I'd do more tests. I have access to some bigger trees but hate to cookie up a cherry log.
> 
> I've only had 2 oils that my Echo Weedeater doesn't like and that's H1r and super techniplate. It's a fixed H jet. It really likes Vp gas and K2. It doesn't mind r50, 800, 927, or original techniplate @32:1.



I had the exact same experience with H1R and super techniplate, both seem to learn out the air fuel ratio.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

if you have a newish echo trimmer 1-3 yrs old it should have a rotary barrel zama carb they say there not adjustable but i know where the h speed mixture screw is


----------



## Moparmyway

jakewells said:


> a rotary barrel zama carb they say there not adjustable but i know where the h speed mixture screw is


Care to elaborate ?
What Zama model # ?


----------



## mdavlee

jakewells said:


> if you have a newish echo trimmer 1-3 yrs old it should have a rotary barrel zama carb they say there not adjustable but i know where the h speed mixture screw is


It's 4 or 5 years old. It seems to be a good tester about how much the oil effects tuning.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> why am I not competent?
> 
> please describe the method that you want want done.
> 
> please describe the appropriate information that needs to be presented.


Not to insult you redbull, but there are so many variable you are not controlling that any yest you perform is at least somewhat suspect.
Really this test would need to be ran on a GOOD dyno with someone who knows how to operate it.


----------



## bwalker

RE: two stoke oil affecting octane. I asked a guy I know who is an expert on this and he basicly responded that a good two cycle oil has no effect on octane, but some poor ones do.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> RE: two stoke oil affecting octane. I asked a guy I know who is an expert on this and he basicly responded that a good two cycle oil has no effect on octane, but some poor ones do.



That's interesting. 

If you ran a poor oil at 32:1 would the volume of oil make up for the poor quality?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> If you ran a poor oil at 32:1 would the volume of oil make up for the poor quality?


No.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> RE: two stoke oil affecting octane. I asked a guy I know who is an expert on this and he basicly responded that a good two cycle oil has no effect on octane, but some poor ones do.


Here is the exact quote"

"Depends on the oil. The really good stuff like Xamax have no real impact even at high concentrations, but it's not a blanket statement by any means. Some are really bad."


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Not to insult you redbull, but there are so many variable you are not controlling that any yest you perform is at least somewhat suspect.
> Really this test would need to be ran on a GOOD dyno with someone who knows how to operate it.



so no cutting? just a dyno?

If there is cutting...

I'd really like to know the method that im not doing correctly and what variables im not controlling and what "appropriate info needs to be presented."

I am going to redo the tests and do more tests,,,but man if I could do it better. Please freakin tell me before I spend more time, effort, and money...and Wood!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> so no cutting? just a dyno?
> 
> If there is cutting...
> 
> I'd really like to know the method that im not doing correctly and what variables im not controlling and what "appropriate info needs to be presented."
> 
> I am going to redo the tests and do more tests,,,but man if I could do it better. Please freakin tell me before I spend more time, effort, and money...and Wood!


Wood is a inconsistent material, chain is inconsistent, and a human operator is hugely inconsistent.
That's not to mention this issues of Mtronic and how it might respond.
Besides what are you trying to prove? What conclusion are you looking for?
Not being a dlck, just curious.


----------



## Trx250r180

Looks like Redbull needs to buy hydrolic lines and pumps ,instead of rolls of chain ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Looks like Redbull needs to buy hydrolic lines and pumps ,instead of rolls of chain ?


Even doing a test like this on a dyno is difficult.. and many dyno aren't worth a damn.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

I will say this thread has been interesting and I still don't know what oil to use. I must be weak minded..


----------



## KG441c

I see the biggest mistake with regular carb saws is we r trying to tune our saw with oil ratio. Choose the oil ratio u want to run and jet the carb if needed and tune the saw to fit the ratio


----------



## porsche965

I just grab the orange screwdriver and tune away. That's why there is access holes to the carb without taking off the hoods.


----------



## zogger

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> I will say this thread has been interesting and I still don't know what oil to use. I must be weak minded..



wallywhirrled 30 weight at 16:1, use the same for the bar oil, done. Shake the mix up good.


----------



## porsche965

Ok Bwalker, just how would you set up a test to evaluate the oils discussed in this thread. That would pass your standards? 

I'd really like to know the right way of doing this. And am willing to put up $ to do it. Like I'm sure everyone here is also. I mean, freeloading really is a shameful way of living life.


----------



## the GOAT

Andyshine77 said:


> Where do we get 30% 40% and so on? Who is posting these numbers? The builders that's who. Most gains come from a MM and tightening up squish, some guys really don't even grind much anymore.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Ok Bwalker, just how would you set up a test to evaluate the oils discussed in this thread. That would pass your standards?
> 
> I'd really like to know the right way of doing this. And am willing to put up $ to do it. Like I'm sure everyone here is also. I mean, freeloading really is a shameful way of living life.


I don't test, because years ago I found that if I listened to people that were successful and smart and observed what they used that it wpuld also work for me. Hint!
Don't worry about freeloading. I don't find anything useful from your tests..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well at the GTG there was a lot decided & figured out based on one cut heh So I'd have to say my methods are pretty anal.
> 
> *Wood -*
> - generally I will slice the end off a log if it's been sitting because that first piece is exposed to the elements.
> 
> - Wood does vary and that is why I've gone to doing 1 slice on multiple logs. Generally I try for 3 logs. First is smaller and I pretty much consider that my "burn card". It's a check to make sure the saw is warmed up and then I check the chain/tension one more time. At that point I know the saw is ready. then 2 logs which are consistent and concentric.
> 
> - I've tested this/my method by doing multiple cuts with the same bar and chain and the times are usually equal or with in +/- .2 seconds.
> 
> - anyone that watched me at the Iowa GTG would probably vouch for how meticulous I am.
> 
> *Chain - *
> - I only use new stihl chain. 1 for each test ...each bar each muffler each whatever I'm testing.
> - I've heard the argument that stihl chain varies from roll to roll. I just haven't seen that. Probably gone through 20 rolls in the last year....just haven't seen that.
> 
> *Operator - *
> I think there is some truth to this. 2 items come to mind.
> 
> 1. technique - it has to be the same.
> 2. pressure applied - again has to be the same.
> 
> technique will make a larger difference in time than pressure applied.
> 
> *MTronic - *
> with the 661 h1r oil ratio test. The results had a somewhat parabolic progression. But they were consistent. I'm pretty sure they are good to go. However after playing with the reset feature at the Iowa GTG ...yeah I'd like to make sure.
> 
> And the results makes perfect sense. As you add more oil to the system your going to progressively impead piston movement. Maybe not on something that is running 2000-3000rpm so much, but when your talking a system that operates at ~8-11k in the cut...yeah it's going to make a difference in time if the piston slows down.
> 
> H1R 800 R50 stihl ultra - *all premix only oils*. No solvents in them. Just oil and additives. So more oil in the bottle.
> 
> 2r 710 si7 lucas amsoil woodland - all I guess u could call them *multipurpose*. Some have solvents in them for injectors. Some have solvents in them to help with formulation. Whatever the case may be...solvents aren't lubricants. Just because you mix with these "multipurpose oils" at 32:1. Doesn't mean your getting a 32:1 ratio of oil and gas. ..you have to account for the solvents.
> 
> Seems to be a very hard concept for some to grasp but* belray* has said exactly that and so has *motul*. I'm not making this sh*t up.
> 
> Chainsaws don't require solvents. It doesn't necessarily hurt them and it doesn't really help either. The ideal oil for a chainsaw is premix. That is exactly what Stihl Ultra is. Premix - oil and an additive package. Of course the argument out there via Mr. Walker is that fully synthetic is problematic. That's debatable for sure.
> 
> Bottom line is: you can't dump in the same amount of "premix" oil and the same amount of "multipurpose" oil in your gas and expect the same results. You are getting more oil in the premix solution. Kinda like using Dawn vs Ajax or something like that. Need more Ajax to get same effect.
> 
> 
> *Prove - *
> 
> The only things we can prove with testing would be
> 
> 1. finding the optimal mix ratio for various oils. Via figuring the best combination of fastest times, lowest temps, and most consistent temps.
> 
> from there...
> 
> 2. you could take each oil at it's best mix ratio against another with it's best mix ratio to determine if there was any difference in time.
> 
> from there...
> 3. you'd have to run the "winner" oil for a while to find out if it offered protection etc etc etc.
> 
> 
> Right now my list includes
> 
> multipurpose oils...
> Motul 710
> 2R
> SI 7
> I honestly think these will be very close in performance. But that's just speculation until tested.
> 
> premix oils
> 800 off road
> h1R
> I think these two will be very close.
> 
> *The thing I'm most curious about is the multipurpose vs the premix*. The chemical and physical properties are opposite sides of the spectrum....I want to see what differences there are.
> 
> I'm not ruling out H1R because my current theory is that the reasons people have had problems with it, is because they run it to heavy with out realizing that they are due to how pure it is if you will. It doesn't matter what oil you run. If you account for the solvents and then run that oil heavy enough, you will have issues.
> 
> So far I've proved that running less H1R then the old adage...accepted golden ratio of 32:1 was better. That makes perfect logical sense if you've read up to this point. It's not me that's saying it. I'm just repeating what Belray AND Motul have said.
> 
> And I've run it at 42:1 in my saw... and so far so good.
> 
> Sure it needs more evidence to confirm that. Like running the 800. But i'm not just going to throw h1r out.
> 
> H1R on paper at least, looks like the best oil. Paper and real life are two different things. So... we'll see.


Just when I think there may be hope for you you go off the deep end..
First of all 2R is a premix oil, not a multi purpose oil. It does use a solvent because it uses very viscous PIB for a component. It needs this solvent for several reasons.
And don't go limping in those other oils with that crap you run.
Lots of stuff.looks good on paper, but in practice H1R is garbage.


----------



## blsnelling

I agreed with most everything you said until the last sentence. How did you determine that H1-R is better than 800 2T, R50, or K2? I've seen no evidence to support that.


----------



## bwalker

Brad, how many guys saying it effects combustion in a negative way do you need to say that it indeed does. And then Redbull tests it and basicly that's what the results are.
The stuff is crap and many people have known this for years. I am not speculating, I have used the damn stuff in multiple applications.


----------



## porsche965

I'd .like to see bel-ray 710 for comparison have ordered some myself. I'm still concerned with the Viscosity on Mtron Saws


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Given that a chainsaw doesn't need an oil with solvents.
> 
> Given that H1R is just ester and additives. That's it. Simple. The way it should be. And thinking about it... yeah 800 may be just as good if not better. All ester and additives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> your boy Rich says different. Says 2r can be used with injectors. Given it's solvents, it's low viscosity...yeah it's multipurpose. Sorry.
> 
> H1R seems to run fine for me so far. But I'm not biased to say it's crap or the best and just make up my mind. I want to test it against the others. As far as I'm concerned they all have an equal shot right now. Like I said paper is one thing. Real world is another.
> 
> 
> furthermore - you are hell bent on running 32:1 no matter what the oil is. That's just illogical thinking. imo


That's not what he said at all... Yamaha sells an injector oil, it's called 2S.
Your equating solvents with injection oils, but should be equating them with the US of PIB's.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> 2S - says "all purpose 2 stroke oil"
> 
> https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=
> 
> This technologically advanced semi-synthetic base stock and additive 2-stroke engine oil provides all-season performance and greatly reduces visible smoke. Low deposits and reduced carbon and varnish deposit means longer engine life and greater performance over time. It provides exceptional lubrication in all temperatures, and a special additive maintains flow and prevents “gelling” in sub-zero conditions.
> 
> 2R - says "competition 2 stroke oil"
> 
> https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=
> 
> A high-performance 2 stroke blend developed to stand up to high temperatures, rigorous demands and stress of competition engines. Special base stocks protect against wear and breakdown, low carbon deposits on pistons, rings and exhaust ports, reduces friction that allows for maximum horsepower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2r is multipurpose because of it's solvent make up and viscosity. It's not premix. IF it was premix he wouldn't be saying you could use it with injectors.
> 
> 800 h1r stihl ultra r50 - you wouldn't dare use with injectors they are true premix.


No where does it day 2R is multipurpose. What Rich said is that you may use it as an injector oil in some situations. I have used Redline two cycle racing oil in an injection stem and it worked ok as would the oils you listed. As long as you were careful in regards to temperatures.
What you do is you read stuff via google and misinterpret it because you have no real knowledge or understanding then spin it off on this board as fact.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> it doesn't matter anyway. you can't even grasp the idea that there is more oil in a bottle of h1r 800 ultra & r50 then R2...yes, because of it's solvent content!
> 
> You can't even get past the stubborn idea that EVERYTHING has to be run at 32:1 and if it don't run at 32:1 it's GARBAGE.


This isn't true at all..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> 2S - says "all purpose 2 stroke oil"
> 
> https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=
> 
> This technologically advanced semi-synthetic base stock and additive 2-stroke engine oil provides all-season performance and greatly reduces visible smoke. Low deposits and reduced carbon and varnish deposit means longer engine life and greater performance over time. It provides exceptional lubrication in all temperatures, and a special additive maintains flow and prevents “gelling” in sub-zero conditions.
> 
> 2R - says "competition 2 stroke oil"
> 
> https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=
> 
> A high-performance 2 stroke blend developed to stand up to high temperatures, rigorous demands and stress of competition engines. Special base stocks protect against wear and breakdown, low carbon deposits on pistons, rings and exhaust ports, reduces friction that allows for maximum horsepower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2r is multipurpose because of it's solvent make up and viscosity. It's not premix. IF it was premix he wouldn't be saying you could use it with injectors.
> 
> 800 h1r stihl ultra r50 - you wouldn't dare use with injectors they are true premix.


Read the quote...it's saying 2r wasn't designed for injector use, but that it may be used in an injected system carefully.
Let me clue you in on one more thing PIB is many times more thicker than the base oil in H1R. The solvent is added to keep the various components blended and to help in mixing with fuel. It's not a filler as you falsely assume and it makes up a very small part of the blend.
Also why the fixation on 2r? Almost anything woukd be a step up from that crap you use now.


----------



## bwalker

Btw H1R is designed for mx Bikes. These bikes have for the most part a factory reccomended oil ratio of 32:1 or in the case of Yamaha 30:1. Don't you think it odd that H1R causes a precipitous drop in power when ran at 32:1 when it should be designed for this ratio given its intended application?


----------



## porsche965

Since OE oil is inferior and dirt bike oil is superior why don't the Dealers just stock enough OE oil for the extra warranty available and stock motorcycle 2 stroke oil instead since it is superior? And cheaper than most.


----------



## porsche965

My Dealer sells Yamaha Generators and Yamaha oils. He does not stock Yamalube 2r or whatever their two stroke is called. I'll ask him next week why.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Since OE oil is inferior and dirt bike oil is superior why don't the Dealers just stock enough OE oil for the extra warranty available and stock motorcycle 2 stroke oil instead since it is superior? And cheaper than most.


OEM oil is a profit center. It's not poor quality stuff despite what red bulls says..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yeah h1r ultra r50 800 true premix oils can't be used with injectors. so your 2r is multipurpose...regardless if it says it. 2-s says all purpose. so whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> when I get the time and the wood I'm doing the tests and I don't give a F who wins. 710, 2R, 800, H1R
> 
> 
> 
> If *Andre* and *Brad* want to come up with some rules or methods or the "appropriate information" they want to see...then im all ears.


Again your assuming..I absolutely could run any of the oils you listed in the right conditions. But if it got cold, they, just like 2R would not pump right..


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Again your assuming..I absolutely could run any of the oils you listed in the right conditions. But if it got cold, they, just like 2R would not pump right..


And Andre and Brad if they were smart woukd take no part in your spupidity..


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> why am I not competent?
> 
> please describe the method that you want want done.
> 
> please describe the appropriate information that needs to be presented.



It is my understanding that there was no baseline done of the ported test saw, against a non ported saw in the same wood, same tuning and so on. this would establish the saws true nature. A little birdie also told me the fuel in the ported saw was not the same fuel used in your saw. Is this all correct?


----------



## Andyshine77

The main difference between injector oil and premix is nothing more than viscosity, especially in colder weather. Thick oil would stress the injector pump. S2 is injector oil, R2 is premix.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> The main difference between injector oil and premix is nothing more than viscosity, especially in colder weather. Thick oil would stress the injector pump. S2 is injector oil, R2 is premix.


You can run pre mix oils in injector systems as long as it stays warm.. I've done it as pre mix oil is typicaly of beter quality..


----------



## Trx250r180

Would it be smart to cut the thicker oil with gas if running in the injector ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Would it be smart to cut the thicker oil with gas if running in the injector ?


No, it would be smart just to convert o premix or run an injector oil. There are quit a fee good injector oils on the market now too, which wasn't the case years ago.


----------



## brockhaskins

Super m. Good oil good price.


----------



## bwalker

Ported 346 xp ran at 32:1 from day one.
That's the original plug from 04 IIRC. This saw has been had the crap ran out of it and it never missed a beat.


----------



## brockhaskins

bwalker said:


> Ported 346 xp ran at 32:1 from day one.
> That's the original plug from 04 IIRC. This saw has been had the crap ran out of it and it never missed a beat.
> 
> I guess now the question is with same oil tuned correctly at 40:1 would everything look as good and if so... why burn extra oil?


----------



## brockhaskins

bwalker said:


> Ported 346 xp ran at 32:1 from day one.
> That's the original plug from 04 IIRC. This saw has been had the crap ran out of it and it never missed a beat. View attachment 423472
> View attachment 423479
> View attachment 423472
> View attachment 423480
> View attachment 423479



I guess now the question is with same oil tuned correctly at 40:1 would everything look as good and if so... why burn extra oil?


----------



## brockhaskins

I'm assuming cylinder looked good too.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Moparmyway said:


> Care to elaborate ?
> What Zama model # ?


zama carbs starting with RB like RB-K70
the high speed jet is located under the primer bulb it has a black plastic cap over it to keep people from tuning it.
its a slotted flat head brass screw but it does control the mixture. you need a tiny screwdriver to 
adjust it. follow this video if you have trouble.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

zogger said:


> wallywhirrled 30 weight at 16:1, use the same for the bar oil, done. Shake the mix up good.



Not that weak minded


----------



## Deleted member 83629

here is the video if you trouble with the jet


----------



## Deleted member 83629

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Not that weak minded


i bet the smell fumes and smoke would be deadly


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> explain what you mean exactly by "no baseline done of the ported test saw against a non ported saw?



Just because the saws ported, doesn't mean it's actually stronger than a stock saw.

I've been with this thread from the beginning, it's such a mess I couldn't possibly remember every detail.


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> I'm assuming cylinder looked good too.


Perfect. Might have looked good at 40 or 50 or 60:1 ,but really what's the down side. And the bearings lived a very long life in this saw despite screaming it's guts out all the time.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Perfect. Might have looked good at 40 or 50 or 60:1 ,but really what's the down side. And the bearings lived a very long life in this saw despite screaming it's guts out all the time.


Btw the piston top has some fuzz on it from a towel I had over it. That's what you see on the crown.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Ported 346 xp ran at 32:1 from day one.
> That's the original plug from 04 IIRC. This saw has been had the crap ran out of it and it never missed a beat.



Sure looks like that saws done a bit of work in it's day.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Ported 346 xp ran at 32:1 from day one.
> That's the original plug from 04 IIRC. This saw has been had the crap ran out of it and it never missed a beat.


2R?


----------



## nitehawk55

Likely the 32:1 has been the only thing stopping that saw from burning up . You need to spend a bit more time keeping your saws cleaned up so they run cooler .


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Sure looks like that saws done a bit of work in it's day.


Lots! Thought I would re ring it just because. Turns out the rings are about perfect.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> 2R?


For the last 5 years or so.


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Likely the 32:1 has been the only thing stopping that saw from burning up . You need to spend a bit more time keeping your saws cleaned up so they run cooler .


Unlike the garage queens you see around here I run the damn things. Air filter is always kept clean but, I can't see the pint of polishing a damn chainsaw. I think it's track record over time speaks for its quality of maintenance.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> I see...
> 
> Summary -
> 
> I said that I thought that my 661 (broken in at 20-25 tanks) with muffler mod (exit port opened up from .625 dia to approx .78" dia.) running 50:1 H1R could beat or equal any Ported 661 running 32:1 H1R.
> 
> My basis for this was that H1R was so pure by volume of the bottle that at 32:1 ratio you were actually using to much oil in the mix and it would impead piston movement.
> 
> Maulhead took me up on the challenge with his Mastermind ported 661 also with approx 20 tanks of use.
> We met at Iowa GTG.
> 
> Same tsumura bar used, 2 new RS chains one for each saw. Each saw emptied of gas and oil and refilled with same bar oil. Gas was purchased at the same station at the same time form the same pump.
> 
> Everyone saw. I ran the saws. Hedgerow ran the saws. Saws basically tied. We had two timers and video'd. If you want more info go look it up...page 100-120ish IIRC
> 
> So let me get this right...
> 
> I'm some how incompetent for the above.
> Our method sucked and the test was totally unfair even though everyone there agreed it was legit.
> Mastermind can't build a saw
> The "appropriate information" ...whatever the fkc that is, wasn't shown.
> 
> and your a lazyazz short sighted jerk for not looking this chit up first and getting your facts straight before you make stupid accusations.
> 
> Quit wasting my time! I thought you were referring to oil testing. ie. the different oils. and ratios ie the 661 test 660 test 361 test.



Easy young buck this isn't a blood sport. 

If the posted saw wasn't tested against other stock saws to determine if it actually makes more power than stock, the test results have even less validity. Ive ported saws that didn't make any gains, so has Brad, Randy and every saw builder I know. So I'm not downing Randy you or anyone else, **** happens.

But get the straight, one half baked comparison is not even being close to the gospel. Slowdown and ease up off more experience individuals, you're not helping your cause by lashing out with nonsense.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I see...
> 
> Summary -
> 
> I said that I thought that my 661 (broken in at 20-25 tanks) with muffler mod (exit port opened up from .625 dia to approx .78" dia.) running 50:1 H1R could beat or equal any Ported 661 running 32:1 H1R.
> 
> My basis for this was that H1R was so pure by volume of the bottle that at 32:1 ratio you were actually using to much oil in the mix and it would impead piston movement.
> 
> Maulhead took me up on the challenge with his Mastermind ported 661 also with approx 20 tanks of use.
> We met at Iowa GTG.
> 
> Same tsumura bar used, 2 new RS chains one for each saw. Each saw emptied of gas and oil and refilled with same bar oil. Gas was purchased at the same station at the same time form the same pump.
> 
> Everyone saw. I ran the saws. Hedgerow ran the saws. Saws basically tied. We had two timers and video'd. If you want more info go look it up...page 100-120ish IIRC
> 
> So let me get this right...
> 
> I'm some how incompetent for the above.
> Our method sucked and the test was totally unfair even though everyone there agreed it was legit.
> Mastermind can't build a saw
> The "appropriate information" ...whatever the fkc that is, wasn't shown.
> 
> and your a lazyazz short sighted jerk for not looking this chit up first and getting your facts straight before you make stupid accusations.
> 
> Quit wasting my time! I thought you were referring to oil testing. ie. the different oils. and ratios ie the 661 test 660 test 361 test.


I about fell out of my chair when I read the H1R being "pure"....someone drank the coolaide..


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> well considering their was another ported 661 there and the two ported 661s were run against each other and they were approx the same...I disagree.
> 
> whatever ...Bucky



Disagreement has nothing to do with any of this, I'm looking for better information, which we do not have. Sorry you're making assumptions and guesses.

No reason to act immature BTW.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well considering their was another ported 661 there and the two ported 661s were run against each other and they were approx the same...I disagree.
> 
> whatever ...Bucky


I would guess redbulls saw runs pretty good and responded to the muffler mod he made well. I have also talked to the porter and the saw rebull ran against was a good runner. I would say that H1R mixed at 32:1 made the ported saw run like crap, which isn't a supprise. I would also suggest the same dynamic are at play at 50:1, just the symptoms are less pronounced.
Now, I will ask the question again. Why would an oil designed for a motocross application run like crap at the ratio the motorcycle OEM's reccomend their bikes be ran at?
The stuff is low grade crap...


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Disagreement has nothing to do with any of this, I'm looking for better information, which we do not have. Sorry you're making assumptions and guesses.
> 
> No reason to act immature BTW.


He sure does make alot of guesses and ASSumptions.
You have to when you haven't done much..


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> I would guess redbulls saw runs pretty good and resonated to the muffler mod he made well. I have also talked to the porter and the saw rebull ran against was a good runner. I would saw that H1R mixed at 32:1 made the ported saw run like crap, which isn't a supprise. I would also suggest the same dynamic are at play at 50:1, just the symptoms are less pronounced.
> Now, I will ask the question again. Why would an oil designed for a motocross application run like crap at the ratio the motorcycle OEM's reccomend their bikes be ran at?
> The stuff is low grade crap...


How do you like K2 so far????.... honestly anxious for your opinion

It seems to burn halfway clean and leaves a very good shine of oil behind.


Getting tired of pulling the muffler of the dolmar to check up on the oil haha I think the 044 needs some portwork or a 460 cylinder so I can "bear" to run it again lol


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> you two haven't done jack squat except exercise your finger tips. You haven't run any tests of any sorts. Armchair commandos at their finest. Big time critics who don't read or can't comprehend what they are reading. Too lazy to get their own assumptions accusations correct. Can't even grasp the concept that solvents don't count as lubricants.


Typical moronic response..
Your tests are garbage ,despite much effort.
The oil you pump sucks too..
Life's hard when your stupid.


----------



## zogger

jakewells said:


> i bet the smell fumes and smoke would be deadly



Ha, you guys think I'm joking. We ran saws like that back in the day on dino 30 weight car oil and even measuring was sorta loose. Four good glugs per gallon (or thereabouts). Ya, some smoke for sure, but it worked.

I know there's other guys here who remember that.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> The only one pumping oil is you. Your entire play book ... based on your buddy mark's fairy tale pipe dream. http://www.legendperformance.com/technical-info/
> 
> my tests are garbage eh? well you haven't done anything. Your just here to troll it up.
> 
> you have yet to say anything about H1R that even makes one bit of sense. You hate them. Obviously you have an agenda.


I have never reccomend that oil..and I said the article was crap..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> The only one pumping oil is you. Your entire play book ... based on your buddy mark's fairy tale pipe dream. http://www.legendperformance.com/technical-info/
> 
> my tests are garbage eh? well you haven't done anything. Your just here to troll it up.
> 
> you have yet to say anything about H1R that even makes one bit of sense. You hate them. Obviously you have an agenda.


I don't hate Belray..I just used some of their excellant waterproof grease. That doesn't change the fact H1R is garbage..your hyping garbage and your to stupid to realize it..


----------



## Raganr

My initial impression of K2:

K2 has a distinct amine smell (probably from the dispersant functionality) and as posted, the oil is less viscous than H1R. Fuel mixed with K2 has a red tint (as does H1R) and minimal odor when burned. I need to try it in a few saws but the nose picked H1R today.


----------



## bwalker

Raganr said:


> My initial impression of K2:
> 
> K2 has a distinct amine smell (dispersant) and as posted, the oil is less viscous than H1R. Fuel mixed with K2 has a red tint (as does H1R) when mixed and minimal odor when burned. I need to try it in a few saws but the nose is picked H1R today.


It probaly doesn't use a nitrogen based dispersent. Most oils other than those used for outboards dont.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> How do you like K2 so far????.... honestly anxious for your opinion
> 
> It seems to burn halfway clean and leaves a very good shine of oil behind.
> 
> 
> Getting tired of pulling the muffler of the dolmar to check up on the oil haha I think the 044 needs some portwork or a 460 cylinder so I can "bear" to run it again lol


I won't know till at 4least the end of the summer. Decided to run it in my bike too.
Btw I see you owned a SH AF. Me too!


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> The only one pumping oil is you. Your entire play book ... based on your buddy mark's fairy tale pipe dream. http://www.legendperformance.com/technical-info/
> 
> my tests are garbage eh? well you haven't done anything. Your just here to troll it up.
> 
> you have yet to say anything about H1R that even makes one bit of sense. You hate them. Obviously you have an agenda.



My agenda is to find what is, not what I want to hear. You're set in false beliefs based on unscientific testing. We still have no idea where the ported test saw stands. I don't care what any builders says a saw can do, without any factual data to back it up, we really have no idea whet we have.

RB if you can't swim don't jump in the water.


----------



## porsche965

This all smells to me like a good time to get your wallets out boys. I'm still waiting for a few good men to take me up on buying new saws and testing oils. Instead of talking about it start spending $. That's what real men do lol. Anyone can talk without testing or taking their time and cash. Anything less is BS. If you believe in what you are saying let's go! And don't talk about all the stuff you HAVE done in life, time to take higher ground. I'm not interested in yesterdays, have a few lives worth of those myself.

Quiet....that's what I thought. No takers. Pathetic. I asked yesterday and no response. I'm still waiting. Get 20 guys together with $200 each (or more, whatever it takes) and let's have some fact finding fun. This could be the start of a new thread that would be the biggest in AS history!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

me thinks you need to buy a poulan wildthing and compare it with supertech outboard oil at different mixtures.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> This all smells to me like a good time to get your wallets out boys. I'm still waiting for a few good men to take me up on buying new saws and testing oils. Instead of talking about it start spending $. That's what real men do lol. Anyone can talk without testing or taking their time and cash. Anything less is BS. If you believe in what you are saying let's go! And don't talk about all the stuff you HAVE done in life, time to take higher ground. I'm not interested in yesterdays, have a few lives worth of those myself.
> 
> Quiet....that's what I thought. No takers. Pathetic. I asked yesterday and no response. I'm still waiting. Get 20 guys together with $200 each (or more, whatever it takes) and let's have some fact finding fun. This could be the start of a new thread that would be the biggest in AS history!



I'm all for it 100%!!! I'd really like to see everything documented on a spread sheet. A good engineer would also be able to come up with a proper testing cell, that sure would be nice.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

why buy saws to use for tests? use your own


----------



## porsche965

....set forth a method. That is a great phrase. Ok, now let's do some sort of pole to see who we have willing to join this pay to play and view test. There is a lot of years of personal experience on this thread. Probably a lot more that are following along that we don't see. 

Put our ideas together and let's form up a METHOD of TESTING. Sure it won't measure up to an MIT analysis but this is suppose to be fun and we will try to be as accurate as possible. Think about it. What would be your best idea of testing? We all are listening, chime in


----------



## porsche965

jakewells said:


> why buy saws to use for tests? use your own



Too much of a variable I would think. New saws would be as close to even as possible. Not a race but two or three saws with combined results should give us a narrow variable worth believing.


----------



## porsche965

Remember whatever we don't use in supplies or the saws that are used can be sold and the proceeds split to a couple of your favorite charities.


----------



## KenJax Tree

You boys pony up and spend the big $$, i'll be over here with one of these cuttin' wood


----------



## porsche965

I have access to two engineers. One at Timken Research in Canton Ohio and one that worked for NASA years ago. Two very bright guys. Next week I'll ask both of them what they think of a way to carry out our test just to see if they have any bright ideas we may use.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> This all smells to me like a good time to get your wallets out boys. I'm still waiting for a few good men to take me up on buying new saws and testing oils. Instead of talking about it start spending $. That's what real men do lol. Anyone can talk without testing or taking their time and cash. Anything less is BS. If you believe in what you are saying let's go! And don't talk about all the stuff you HAVE done in life, time to take higher ground. I'm not interested in yesterdays, have a few lives worth of those myself.
> 
> Quiet....that's what I thought. No takers. Pathetic. I asked yesterday and no response. I'm still waiting. Get 20 guys together with $200 each (or more, whatever it takes) and let's have some fact finding fun. This could be the start of a new thread that would be the biggest in AS history!


No one smart is quick to pony up cash because it's pouring money down a dry hole...


----------



## Deleted member 83629

why not use a de prony brake to find the results instead of timed vuts in s saw.


----------



## Hedgerow

Andyshine77 said:


> Disagreement has nothing to do with any of this, I'm looking for better information, which we do not have. Sorry you're making assumptions and guesses.
> 
> No reason to act immature BTW.


What has not been posted is the end of day results.. I know, cause I ran them.. In a red Elm log, free of knots, the ported saws, running the same fuel as red bulls saw, made approximately 25% better times than the stock muff modded saw.. Mitch ported one and Randy ported one.. The two ported saws were virtually identical. 
Earlier in the day, the ported saw was dead even with the stock saw as the ported saw was running that bell ray **** 32:1...
Stocker was at 50:1..
Fact... Anyone wanna debate with me??? I'm game...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yeah I can't wait to hear bwalker and andyshine's methods. we're only on post #3713.


I have no desire to prove your oil sucks to you. I ALREADY KNOW IT DOES BECAUSE I HAVE USED THE CRAP,along with other quality oils that dont have fubared tuning characteristics or lead to massive power loss with a small chanhe in oik ratio,as your own testing proved.


----------



## porsche965

Hedgerow said:


> What has not been posted is the end of day results.. I know, cause I ran them.. In a red Elm log, free of knots, the ported saws, running the same fuel as red bulls saw, made approximately 25% better times than the stock muff modded saw.. Mitch ported one and Randy ported one.. The two ported saws were virtually identical.
> Earlier in the day, the ported saw was dead even with the stock saw as the ported saw was running that bell ray **** 32:1...
> Stocker was at 50:1..
> Fact... Anyone wanna debate with me??? I'm game...



Now wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I thought Brad and MM were running 32:1 Bel Ray H1R in their ported saws. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't H1R the oil everyone, well a lot of on this site were running before this thread started?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I have access to two engineers. One at Timken Research in Canton Ohio and one that worked for NASA years ago. Two very bright guys. Next week I'll ask both of them what they think of a way to carry out our test just to see if they have any bright ideas we may use.


Fancy..but last I knew NASA doesn't fart around with two strokes and neither does timken.


----------



## porsche965

We are talking about testing quite a few brands of oils, just not H1R. And ratios also.


----------



## Andyshine77

More than one type of saw will be needed, different oils as well. A new saw is not the best option, I've seen huge differences in power and the tune as a saw breaks in. Temperature and proper tuning will be critical.

And Red Bull if a stock 372 running 50:1 or 40:1 out cuts my ported 372 running 32:1 with Klotz R50, I'll give you my 372 no questions asked. Obviously the stock saw will be inspected to make sure it hasn't been ported. At the 50cc saw shootout all the saws were inspected to make sure there wasn't anything out of the norm. No how's that for putting money on the table??


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Fancy..but last I knew NASA doesn't fart around with two strokes and neither does timken.



Being an engineer alone is way beyond most of our pay grades here. Fancy? Just because you don't have any high ranking engineer friends? 

Their experience with bearings and other experiences surely would qualify them for an opinion, would it not?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

I'm done here it's over my head


----------



## Raganr

I ran H1R because it was suggested by several saw porters. Reading this thread made me take a fresh look. It would be interesting to know the average molecular weight for the oils discussed. The manufactures know it (or at least for the components in their additive mixture) but may not want to share.

Although I dont like the smell of amines, I know they serve a purpose in oils so it leads me to believe K2 may be a better oil. Amines are not cheap so that may also explain the higher cost.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> andy so stock 50:1 r50 - vs - 32:1 r50 ported?



Any oil you want!!


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Being an engineer alone is way beyond most of our pay grades here. Fancy? Just because you don't have any high ranking engineer friends?
> 
> Their experience with bearings and other experiences surely would qualify them for an opinion, would it not?


Your assuming and you would be very wrong. I know plenty of engineers and work with a dozen of them, but GE turbines don't have anything to do with two strokes. No different for your pals.
And I am payed more than the engineers.


----------



## Andyshine77

RB do you care to make a counter offer? I could always use another saw.


----------



## Andyshine77

Not so confident are we???


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Your assuming and you would be very wrong.



And so are you Bwalker. Retired at 37 years old. I'm way smarter than you know


----------



## porsche965

Andyshine77 said:


> RB do you care to make a counter offer? I could always use another saw.



I thought this was about oil testing? If it's racing we are after let's start another thread! 

I'm interested in Oils.


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Now wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I thought Brad and MM were running 32:1 Bel Ray H1R in their ported saws. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't H1R the oil everyone, well a lot of on this site were running before this thread started?


A lot were running it. I didn't make it through a pint or liter before I give up on it. The first time milling was enough of that. Then the Weedeater ran like crap so I went back to klotz and tried some others.


----------



## Raganr

I am sure there are plenty of engineers here but I don't think an engineering degree makes them any more knowledgeable on this subject. There are a lot of engineering fields out there. My guess is that bwalker has some experience in the the lubricant industry and interest in 2 cycle engines..... Being an engineer is not required to speak knowledgeably on a subject, even a lab tech from the lubricant industry and interest in 2 cycle engines could provide valuable insight.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> I thought this was about oil testing? If it's racing we are after let's start another thread!
> 
> I'm interested in Oils.



No no no. RB said a stock saw running 50:1 or 40:1 will make up the power difference if you're running 32:1 in a ported saw.


----------



## Hedgerow

porsche965 said:


> Now wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I thought Brad and MM were running 32:1 Bel Ray H1R in their ported saws. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't H1R the oil everyone, well a lot of on this site were running before this thread started?


Actually, no.. But what some folks use to protect bearings don't equate to better performance.. I know for a fact my ported 562 don't like 32:1 mix.. It may be great and all, but there's something it don't like about that mix.. 
I have found, through many tanks of use, 40:1 is all I can run without negative effects. I run Lucas cause it's cheap and works.. The carbed saws get the same mix cause I ain't gonna make special mix for one saw..
When it's play time, the saws get a richer mix...


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> 77 - has nothing to do with confidence. I think it would be closer than you think. That's what I think.
> 
> muff modded 372 whatever it is with whatever oil I want vs ported 372 running 32:1 r50 sludge. ...yeah it would be way closer than u think it would be. would it win. i dunno. would i do it. sure.




MM all you want!! It will not be close!! you're in over you're head. If I'm wrong you get a saw. So you have nothing offer??


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> no you idiot. once again u can't read. I said a 661 running 50:1 H1R vs 661 ported running H1R at 32:1.
> 
> all i proved was u couldn't run h1r that heavy. once he went to 40:1 h1r he started kicking my azz.



So you're saying H1R is junk??


----------



## porsche965

Hedgerow said:


> Actually, no.. But what some folks use to protect bearings don't equate to better performance.. I know for a fact my ported 562 don't like 32:1 mix.. It may be great and all, but there's something it don't like about that mix..
> I have found, through many tanks of use, 40:1 is all I can run without negative effects. I run Lucas cause it's cheap and works.. The carbed saws get the same mix cause I ain't gonna make special mix for one saw..
> When it's play time, the saws get a richer mix...



My 362c is worse as far as richer ratios. The 562xp can handle a bit more but isn't necessary. 43:1 here and 50:1 on the 362c. Yep, two cans for the posse of saws, just depends on the saw as to what to use.


----------



## KG441c

Welcome to The Jerry Springer Show!!!!!


----------



## Hedgerow

Andyshine77 said:


> More than one type of saw will be needed, different oils as well. A new is not the best option, I've seen huge differences in power and the tune as a saw breaks in. Temperature and proper tuning will be critical.
> 
> And Red Bull if a stock 372 running 50:1 or 40:1 out cuts my ported 372 running 32:1 with Klotz R50, I'll give you my 372 no questions asked. Obviously the stock saw will be inspected to make sure it hasn't been ported. At the 50cc saw shootout all the saws were inspected to make sure there wasn't anything out of the norm. No how's that for putting money on the table??


It won't..
I don't think that's what RB was insinuating from the beginning..
It was the fact that 32:1 H1R ran worse than 50:1 H1R in the mt 661 saws.. 
Enough so to make up a good port Jon's difference..
He thinks it's a thickness issue and the other fella thinks it's a poor quality issue..
And there you have it professor..
Analyze...
I


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> My 362c is worse as far as richer ratios. The 562xp can handle a bit more but isn't necessary. 43:1 here and 50:1 on the 362c. Yep, two cans for the posse of saws, just depends on the saw as to what to use.



That's too bad, I know these saws are on the edge of tuning out of the box. EHP is modding the carbs and they are doing real well and putting up with plenty of abuse. All running 32:1 BTW lol.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> So you're saying H1R is junk??


Pretty much, but he's too dumb to realize it.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> That's too bad, I know these saws are on the edge of tuning out of the box. EHP is modding the carbs and they are doing real well and putting up with plenty of abuse. All running 32:1 BTW lol.


My bone stock 562 runs great at 32:1


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> I'm 38 and am not hurting by any means..


Yeah...
But you live in da UP...
So you're suspect at best...
LOL..


----------



## redbull660

This has turned into an all out insult fest LMAO!!!!!!! Well im going to watch a movie with the wifey. later oil dorks.


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> It won't..
> I don't think that's what RB was insinuating from the beginning..
> It was the fact that 32:1 H1R ran worse than 50:1 H1R in the mt 661 saws..
> Enough so to make up a good port Jon's difference..
> He thinks it's a thickness issue and the other fella thinks it's a poor quality issue..
> And there you have it professor..
> Analyze...
> I


Thickness has nothing to do with it or oils like 800t r50 would have the same chitty reputation as H1R. They dont.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> My bone stock 562 runs great at 32:1



Why would you run a stock saw that was engineered to run at 50:1 on 32:1? Wouldn't that be a waste of oil? 

I still have a hard time believing that the engineers at Stihl and Husqvarna are this wrong.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yamacrap is so thin u could probably run it at 20:1


Again, you exhibit your stupidity.
2r has won more than that tar you use and by a huge margin... but those jap engineers don't know chit and keep running that thin oil.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yamacrap is so thin u could probably run it at 20:1


Again, you exhibit your stupidity.
2r has won more than that tar you use and by a huge margin... but those jap engineers don't know chit and keep running that thin oil.


----------



## Andyshine77

Hedgerow said:


> It won't..
> I don't think that's what RB was insinuating from the beginning..
> It was the fact that 32:1 H1R ran worse than 50:1 H1R in the mt 661 saws..
> Enough so to make up a good port Jon's difference..
> He thinks it's a thickness issue and the other fella thinks it's a poor quality issue..
> And there you have it professor..
> Analyze...
> I



I have not experienced this with any other oil except Klotz SuperTech. H1R is a low quality product, the thickness is not the issue R50 is just as thick if not more so.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Why would you run a stock saw that was engineered to run at 50:1 on 32:1? Wouldn't that be a waste of oil?
> 
> I still have a hard time believing that the engineers at Stihl and Husqvarna are this wrong.


Better ring seal, more power, longer bearing life. Works good for me.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I have not experienced this with any other other than Klotz SuperTech. H1R is a low quality product, the thickness is not the issue, R50 is just as thick if not more so.


Thickness has zero to do with it.
Let's say you removed the solvent from 2R. It would be much thicker than H1R and it would still burn just fine. The stuff burns clean down to 16:1, doesn't effect combustion and doesn't lower octane.. same can't be said for H1R. It really is crap.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Works good for me.



That's all that really counts at the end of the day I guess. Confidence in running what you truly believe in is a victory in itself.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Why would you run a stock saw that was engineered to run at 50:1 on 32:1? Wouldn't that be a waste of oil?
> 
> I still have a hard time believing that the engineers at Stihl and Husqvarna are this wrong.



http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/part-2-siezures-oil-ratio-and-fuel-poll.46217/
http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Works good for me.


Myself I dont feel comfortable with the bottomend @ 50:1 on a ported saw


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> Thickness has nothing to do with it or oils like 800t r50 would have the same chitty reputation as H1R. They dont.


The saw Mitch ported was very close to Randy's 661 but was running 32:1...
Not H1R... But a different brand..

I could actually care less about most of this ****.. But if someone knew for a fact a different blend at 25:1 made more power than mine, I'd listen...
For play only, as I have no intention of changing the herd's diet for production use..


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Myself I dont feel comfortable with the bottomend @ 50:1 on a ported saw


I don't feel good running 50:1 in any air cooled ***.


----------



## Hedgerow

Hey Andy.... Let's race 4 cube's...
I'll run 40:1, and you can run a muff modded at any oil mix you want..


I get your saw when we done...


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> 77 - has nothing to do with confidence. I think it would be closer than you think. That's what I think.
> 
> muff modded 372 whatever it is with whatever oil I want vs ported 372 running 32:1 r50 sludge. ...yeah it would be way closer than u think it would be. would it win. i dunno. would i do it. sure.


Have you not run a ported 372?


----------



## Hedgerow

Sure got dead all the sudden in here..


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Easy young buck this isn't a blood sport.
> 
> If the posted saw wasn't tested against other stock saws to determine if it actually makes more power than stock, the test results have even less validity. Ive ported saws that didn't make any gains, so has Brad, Randy and every saw builder I know. So I'm not downing Randy you or anyone else, **** happens.
> 
> But get the straight, one half baked comparison is not even being close to the gospel. Slowdown and ease up off more experience individuals, you're not helping your cause by lashing out with nonsense.


Andre is right. Until you run both saws on the same fuels, you have no baseline from which to draw any conclusions. 

I laid out a long time ago what I believe needs tested. I'm not digging back through the thread to find it. Redbull, you pretty much said the same thing earlier today.


----------



## blsnelling

Hedgerow said:


> Sure got dead all the sudden in here..


I get busy this evening, and come back to 5 more pages to read! How dare you have all the fun while I'm gone, lol


----------



## porsche965

This is why we need a structured methodology of testing drawn up first, that we all can agree to, then bring on the oils.


----------



## blsnelling

The only thing shown so far is that some saws, not all, run worse on H1-R at 32:1 than they do with less oil. Until another high viscosity ester oil is tested, we do not know if those results were due to H1-R inhibiting combustion, or if it's simply too much oil. You won't answer this question until you have tested some more heavy oils. That needs done first and foremost.


----------



## blsnelling

Don't worry about splitting hairs at this point. Test 32:1, 40:1, and 50:1. Only after you have decided on an oil would I spend any effort going to any more effort on ratios.


----------



## Hedgerow

blsnelling said:


> Have you not run a ported 372?


It was the little orange saw that beat the 661's in the same piece of Elm..
LOL..
With a dull chain...
Hahahahahaha!!!


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

Hedgerow said:


> What has not been posted is the end of day results.. I know, cause I ran them.. In a red Elm log, free of knots, the ported saws, running the same fuel as red bulls saw, made approximately 25% better times than the stock muff modded saw.. Mitch ported one and Randy ported one.. The two ported saws were virtually identical.
> Earlier in the day, the ported saw was dead even with the stock saw as the ported saw was running that bell ray **** 32:1...
> Stocker was at 50:1..
> Fact... Anyone wanna debate with me??? I'm game...




My saw was running ultra @32:1 with 91 octane.....


----------



## huskihl

Hedgerow said:


> It was the little orange saw that beat the 661's in the same piece of Elm..
> LOL..
> With a dull chain...
> Hahahahahaha!!!


The saddest part of this whole thread is you basterd Missourins cuttin' red elm into cookies over thar in Iowa. Damn shame I tell ya. I grew up cutting, splitting, and burning that stuff from the time I was 10 years old. I guess we cut too much of it cuz now it's all gone.


----------



## Hedgerow

Time's Standing Stihl said:


> My saw was running ultra @32:1 with 91 octane.....


I wasn't gonna tell em...
Lol..


----------



## blsnelling

Hedgerow said:


> It was the little orange saw that beat the 661's in the same piece of Elm..
> LOL..
> With a dull chain...
> Hahahahahaha!!!


385/390?


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

Figured I would get them scratching their heads a bit more


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> 385/390?


365 probably


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

mdavlee said:


> 365 probably



No way


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> 365 probably


Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!
I don't think anyone would guess...
But it's one of your favorites...


----------



## mdavlee

Hedgerow said:


> Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!
> I don't think anyone would guess...
> But it's one of your favorites...


Ahhhh the orange and black one.


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> Ahhhh the orange and black one.


In average wood, those 661's don't even stand a chance..


----------



## blsnelling

*Test Criteria*​

*Control Factors*

The following CRITICAL factors that MUST be controlled.

Wood consistency
Do not use multiple logs for testing the same mix. Make three cuts in the same log in order to obtain an average.
Honestly, if you want the most accurate results, this testing should be done on a dyno.

Tuning
The saw must be tuned in the cut, giving it what it wants, not just what a tach saws. I would use a tach for reference and to check myself. Tuning would be done in a separate log, so as to not waste good test wood.

Cutting technique
The dawgs cannot be used at all! The cut should be started with the saw at full RPMs, dropped into the log very decidedly, and a consistent load maintained on the saw for the entire cut. Best cut times will come from a moderately heavy load, but not lugging it at all. A feel for this can only be gained through experience.


*Oils and Ratios*

Determine the high viscosity oils to be tested.

Bel-Ray H1-R
Motul 800 2T
Maxima K2
Klotz R50

Determine the moderate viscosity oils to be tested.

Motul 710
Yamalube 2R
Lucas

Test each oil at the following ratios.

32:1
40:1
50:1
Note: I would not split hairs testing any additional ratios at this point. You can do that after you chose an oil.


*Tests*

Test each mix in at least two MTronic saws, muffler modded only.
MS661C
MS362C or MS261C

Test each mix in at least two standard carbed saws, muffler modded only.
MS660
MS461, MS361, MS261

Test each mix in at least two MTronic saws, ported.
MS661C
MS362C, MS261C

Test each mix in at least two standard carbed saws, ported
MS661
MS461, MS361, MS261


Yes, that’s a LOT of tests, but only after you have that data can you begin to draw some conclusions. Doing so without this data is only guessing and making assumptions.

This is only a first take at it. I'm sure it needs some refining.


----------



## Andyshine77

Hedgerow said:


> Hey Andy.... Let's race 4 cube's...
> I'll run 40:1, and you can run a muff modded at any oil mix you want..
> 
> 
> I get your saw when we done...


No! I'm too scared, and I don't trust you.[emoji6]


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> *Test Criteria*​
> 
> *Control Factors*
> 
> The following CRITICAL factors that MUST be controlled.
> 
> Wood consistency
> Do not use multiple logs for testing the same mix. Make three cuts in the same log in order to obtain an average.
> Honestly, if you want the most accurate results, this testing should be done on a dyno.
> 
> Tuning
> The saw must be tuned in the cut, giving it what it wants, not just what a tach saws. I would use a tach for reference and to check myself. Tuning would be done in a separate log, so as to not waste good test wood.
> 
> Cutting technique
> The dawgs cannot be used at all! The cut should be started with the saw at full RPMs, dropped into the log very decidedly, and a consistent load maintained on the saw for the entire cut. Best cut times will come from a moderately heavy load, but not lugging it at all. A feel for this can only be gained through experience.
> 
> 
> *Oils and Ratios*
> 
> Determine the high viscosity oils to be tested.
> 
> Bel-Ray H1-R
> Motul 800 2T
> Maxima K2
> Klotz R50
> 
> Determine the moderate viscosity oils to be tested.
> 
> Motul 710
> Yamalube 2R
> Lucas
> 
> Test each oil at the following ratios.
> 
> 32:1
> 40:1
> 50:1
> Note: I would not split hairs testing any additional ratios at this point. You can do that after you chose an oil.
> 
> 
> *Tests*
> 
> Test each mix in at least two MTronic saws, muffler modded only.
> MS661C
> MS362C or MS261C
> 
> Test each mix in at least two standard carbed saws, muffler modded only.
> MS660
> MS461, MS361, MS261
> 
> Test each mix in at least two MTronic saws, ported.
> MS661C
> MS362C, MS261C
> 
> Test each mix in at least two standard carbed saws, ported
> MS661
> MS461, MS361, MS261
> 
> 
> Yes, that’s a LOT of tests, but only after you have that data can you begin to draw some conclusions. Doing so without this data is only guessing and making assumptions.
> 
> This is only a first take at it. I'm sure it needs some refining.


Looks about right, I'm sure others parameters will pop up.[emoji8]


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> IMO the wood changes to much doing 3 cuts...that's 9 slices off the same log per test! I'd say 2 cuts on two different logs.
> 
> Also need a NEW chain for each mix ratio.
> 
> And I'm outta here. Best of luck. Tired of the insults.



I really can't blame you, some take things and make things personal. 

Later.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Now wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I thought Brad and MM were running 32:1 Bel Ray H1R in their ported saws. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't H1R the oil everyone, well a lot of on this site were running before this thread started?



Yes many ran and recommended it. I ran a few tanks of it and hated the way it ran in my 346 and 421, I brought up my concerns about how H1R ran with Brad and a few others. I would not recommend H1R after my experience with the product. You're not going to trash a top end or anything like that, but it causes some inconsistent running and tuning problems.


----------



## the GOAT

Hedgerow said:


> What has not been posted is the end of day results.. I know, cause I ran them.. In a red Elm log, free of knots, the ported saws, running the same fuel as red bulls saw, made approximately 25% better times than the stock muff modded saw.. Mitch ported one and Randy ported one.. The two ported saws were virtually identical.
> Earlier in the day, the ported saw was dead even with the stock saw as the ported saw was running that bell ray **** 32:1...
> Stocker was at 50:1..
> Fact... Anyone wanna debate with me??? I'm game...





porsche965 said:


> Now wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I thought Brad and MM were running 32:1 Bel Ray H1R in their ported saws. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't H1R the oil everyone, well a lot of on this site were running before this thread started?





Ok, so I've kind of been following this thread.... But two ported saws running 32:1 weren't any faster than a muffler mod'd saw running 50:1? And when they were all running 50:1 the ported saws were faster??

Since the 'top' builders reccomend/require 32:1 in ported saws what is the point of having a saw ported... I'd rather run 50:1 spend less $$$, save the polar bears AND cut just as fast.


----------



## Andyshine77

the GOAT said:


> Ok, so I've kind of been following this thread.... But two ported saws running 32:1 weren't any faster than a muffler mod'd saw running 50:1? And when they were all running 50:1 the ported saws were faster??
> 
> Since the 'top' builders reccomend 32:1 in ported saws what is the point of having a saw ported... I'd rather run 50:1 spend less $$$, save the polar bears AND cut just as fast.



You nailed it. The oil ratio has nothing to with any of this, other than the fact H1R makes saws run backwards lol. Also, not every ported saw actually runs better than a stock one. 

Saw builders have a product to sell, it's in their best interest to market themselves and their product. This holds true with every saw builder and any product. Some of the stuff that's been marketed here and on other forms is downright amusing at times, and people fall for this propaganda hook line and sinker. If you want a good running work saw, open up the exhaust, set squish and on some saws advance the timing. That will get you most of the gains in a work saw IMHO. And as always a property setup chain will take you to the next level.


----------



## redbull660

omg. it wasn't the porter. it wasn't the oil. *It was the amount of oil. *

once maulhead's 661 started running 40:1 H1R even though I was still running 50:1 he was kicking my azz. 

He may have even been kicking my azz if he simply went to 36:1 H1R. 

For the last time H1R simply has more oil in the bottle than most others. When u dump it into the gas you actually have MORE oil in the gas then others. Need less H1R to do the same job as others. 

It has nothing to do with the porters. Or the oil being "crap".


----------



## porsche965

That said a 60:1 test is in order with H1R. My bet is that it would be fine in firewood applications.


----------



## Hedgerow

blsnelling said:


> *Test Criteria*​
> 
> *Control Factors*
> 
> The following CRITICAL factors that MUST be controlled.
> 
> Wood consistency
> Do not use multiple logs for testing the same mix. Make three cuts in the same log in order to obtain an average.
> Honestly, if you want the most accurate results, this testing should be done on a dyno.
> 
> Tuning
> The saw must be tuned in the cut, giving it what it wants, not just what a tach saws. I would use a tach for reference and to check myself. Tuning would be done in a separate log, so as to not waste good test wood.
> 
> Cutting technique
> The dawgs cannot be used at all! The cut should be started with the saw at full RPMs, dropped into the log very decidedly, and a consistent load maintained on the saw for the entire cut. Best cut times will come from a moderately heavy load, but not lugging it at all. A feel for this can only be gained through experience.
> 
> 
> *Oils and Ratios*
> 
> Determine the high viscosity oils to be tested.
> 
> Bel-Ray H1-R
> Motul 800 2T
> Maxima K2
> Klotz R50
> 
> Determine the moderate viscosity oils to be tested.
> 
> Motul 710
> Yamalube 2R
> Lucas
> 
> Test each oil at the following ratios.
> 
> 32:1
> 40:1
> 50:1
> Note: I would not split hairs testing any additional ratios at this point. You can do that after you chose an oil.
> 
> 
> *Tests*
> 
> Test each mix in at least two MTronic saws, muffler modded only.
> MS661C
> MS362C or MS261C
> 
> Test each mix in at least two standard carbed saws, muffler modded only.
> MS660
> MS461, MS361, MS261
> 
> Test each mix in at least two MTronic saws, ported.
> MS661C
> MS362C, MS261C
> 
> Test each mix in at least two standard carbed saws, ported
> MS661
> MS461, MS361, MS261
> 
> 
> Yes, that’s a LOT of tests, but only after you have that data can you begin to draw some conclusions. Doing so without this data is only guessing and making assumptions.
> 
> This is only a first take at it. I'm sure it needs some refining.


TL; DR


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> omg. it wasn't the porter. it wasn't the oil. *It was the amount of oil. *
> 
> once maulhead's 661 started running 40:1 H1R even though I was still running 50:1 he was kicking my azz.
> 
> He may have even been kicking my azz if he simply went to 36:1 H1R.
> 
> For the last time H1R simply has more oil in the bottle than most others. When u dump it into the gas you actually have MORE oil in the gas then others. Need less H1R to do the same job as others.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the porters. Or the oil being "crap".



How do you know it isn't the oil if you didn't compare other oils?? Sorry H1R is one of the problems, you are apparently the other. If an oil effects combustion that much, it's garbage. I'm done with this stupidity. Later.


----------



## KG441c

How did the reg. Carb. Saws @ 32:1 run against these 661s?


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> That said a 60:1 test is in order with H1R. My bet is that it would be fine in firewood applications.



I have little doubt a saw will run on that ratio for a good long while. However if you open up two saws of the same make, with the same amount of fuel run through them, you'd start running more oil.


----------



## huskihl

Dude you're still not getting it. Run another oil as thick as h1r (like r50) at 32:1 and compare the results to those of h1r. If r50 runs better than h1r at 32:1 then you know it's h1r that has performance issues, not thicker oil in general that has performance issues. Hard to perform non biased tests when you're clearly biased toward h1r


----------



## KG441c

If the less ratio runs better its in an autotune saw or the saw being ran at 32to1 isnt jetted and tuned properly. Simple


----------



## redbull660

huskihl said:


> Dude you're still not getting it. Run another oil as thick as h1r (like r50) at 32:1 and compare the results to those of h1r. If r50 runs better than h1r at 32:1 then you know it's h1r that has performance issues, not thicker oil in general that has performance issues. Hard to perform non biased tests when you're clearly biased toward h1r




Boggles my mind how you guys are so hung up on this golden ratio...somehow all oils are created equal and must be run at 32:1.


"Going from a leaner oil ratio to a *richer oil mixture* just increases the amount of oil you are pumping into the combustion chamber. If you are running too rich you have excess oil that will just come in and go right out in the exhaust*. It might also lower the power in the engine by just bogging the piston down with excess oil."*

*
"When you are adding more oil to the mixture you are providing more oil to form the fluid film in the cylinder. That film does offer some resistance to the movement of the piston and could slow it down some. Remember, the main goal of the lubricant is to protect before anything else.* *It is protecting the surface but it will also impede the movement slightly because of its physical nature.

Now, when you are talking about rpms in the low thousands of larger engines, the difference will be small, but when you start reaching the high rpms of a wide open throttle in a small 2-stroke motor, the difference in engine speed can be more noticeable. Therefore, the saw is spinning just slightly slower and the cutting would take longer. This would also affect the temperature because as the engine is spinning slower, the fuel/oil mix is entering at a slower rate so there is less fuel and oil entering into the cylinder to cool the piston.*"


*"Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well.*"


----------



## bwalker

Or it might just inhibit combudtion because it's garbage.
Many other QUALITY oils run good down to 16:1 including 800 which is a similar viscosity.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Or it might just inhibit combudtion because it's garbage.


 
How and why exactly does it inhibit combustion? A nice detailed answer would really help.


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

What I think is comical about this thread is if you go read the first 10 pages.....everyone worships the H1-R. 3,000 posts later......its garbage


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> How and why exactly does it inhibit combustion? A nice detailed answer would really help.


I no longer want to HELP YOU.


----------



## nitehawk55

Someone needs to stick a fork in this thread , it's way overdone with a lot of poor information and foolishness without fact .

Find a good oil , use it and have fun cutting. There is no magic elixer out there that will make your saw run better and stronger !! Use common sense , take care of your saw and it will last you for years .


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I see...and no one else either. Guess there is no reason left for you to post on this thread then. cya.


I think your the only one left that doesn't get it...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I think your the only one left that doesn't get it...



so if it inhibits combustion. Than it should be way slower than the other oils. Right? So running any other oil should blow it away. yes?

...especially something like lucas or 710 or 2R or R50 or 800 ???


This I've gotta see. I mean seriously if it's that crappy and runs *that much slower*. you would have my full apology. gotta see this!

best place to get 800, 2r, r50, 710, lucas? 

anyone want to chip in on the oil ?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Rocky mountain atv and O'Reilley's for Lucas


----------



## porsche965

Sure I will.


----------



## mdavlee

Comet kart sales was cheaper the other day than rocky mountain. They had free shipping over $50.

Rocky Mountain has all of them in stock. I can chip in for some


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> so if it inhibits combustion. Than it should be way slower than the other oils. Right? So running any other oil should blow it away. yes?
> 
> ...especially something like lucas or 710 or 2R or R50 or 800 ???
> 
> 
> This I've gotta see. I mean seriously if it's that crappy and runs *that much slower*. you would have my full apology. gotta see this!
> 
> best place to get 800, 2r, r50, 710, lucas?
> 
> anyone want to chip in on the oil ?


Clearances being what they are. Have you considered that during steady state running the same amount of oil exists between the piston and cylinder and between the ball and race of each bearing regarfless of ratio(within reason)? Ever seen a oil migration time chart? How might the firat point impact your hairbrained thick oil theory?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I'm done arguing theory or why this should work or whatever. Like I said before I don't care who is right.
> 
> I'm curious to test them all. I want my 661 running as best as it can. If H1R "inhibits combustion" then it should run way slower than these other guys.


You are done arguing theory? This is a good thing as you haven't a clue about theory and this is why your conclusions are garbage IE your thick oil theory...


----------



## huskihl

redbull660 said:


> Boggles my mind how you guys are so hung up on this golden ratio...somehow all oils are created equal and must be run at 32:1.
> 
> 
> "Going from a leaner oil ratio to a *richer oil mixture* just increases the amount of oil you are pumping into the combustion chamber. If you are running too rich you have excess oil that will just come in and go right out in the exhaust*. It might also lower the power in the engine by just bogging the piston down with excess oil."*
> 
> *
> "When you are adding more oil to the mixture you are providing more oil to form the fluid film in the cylinder. That film does offer some resistance to the movement of the piston and could slow it down some. Remember, the main goal of the lubricant is to protect before anything else.* *It is protecting the surface but it will also impede the movement slightly because of its physical nature.
> 
> Now, when you are talking about rpms in the low thousands of larger engines, the difference will be small, but when you start reaching the high rpms of a wide open throttle in a small 2-stroke motor, the difference in engine speed can be more noticeable. Therefore, the saw is spinning just slightly slower and the cutting would take longer. This would also affect the temperature because as the engine is spinning slower, the fuel/oil mix is entering at a slower rate so there is less fuel and oil entering into the cylinder to cool the piston.*"
> 
> 
> *"Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well.*"


I'm not hung up on any oil or ratio. I've run any oil I could find for the last 35 years until tcw3 came out. And I've used tcw3 exclusively since then in everything 2 stroke without failure of any sort. In the last week I've bought 2 different gallons (both fd rated) because of this thread. Open mind, son. Don't get hung up on one oil while you're doing these tests.
There's in excess of 500 years of combined experience posting in and reading this thread. And much of this experience includes dismantling 2 strokes and finding bearing failure and p/c scoring. Imo, and nearly everyone elses, the main reason for oem recommendations of 50:1 is because of the epa. I'm gonna hunt for an oil I can use at 32:1 without sacrificing any performance and stick with it. 

I don't enjoy the bashing, but your thread is still informative. Really need to back off the bashing from both ends and keep learning


----------



## KG441c

Welcome to todays episode of Jerry Springer!!!


----------



## porsche965

And here all this time I've been reading that watercraft oil was bad on chainsaws. So much for that. Can't argue with success right?


----------



## Effs

redbull660 said:


> That answer is right in the post!
> 
> Because maulhead's MM ported 661 got faster going from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R.
> 
> After it was running 40:1 it was then equal to the other Mitch's ported 661...which was running 32:1 Ultra.
> 
> and you keep calling me the stupid one.


.been using h1r for over 10 years, in all my 2 stroke engines at 50/1. It's the best oil I have tried . My engines are spotless inside with no carbon buildup. No need to try anything different because I have.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I'm not hung up on any oil or ratio. I've run any oil I could find for the last 35 years until tcw3 came out. And I've used tcw3 exclusively since then in everything 2 stroke without failure of any sort. In the last week I've bought 2 different gallons (both fd rated) because of this thread. Open mind, son. Don't get hung up on one oil while you're doing these tests.
> There's in excess of 500 years of combined experience posting in and reading this thread. And much of this experience includes dismantling 2 strokes and finding bearing failure and p/c scoring. Imo, and nearly everyone elses, the main reason for oem recommendations of 50:1 is because of the epa. I'm gonna hunt for an oil I can use at 32:1 without sacrificing any performance and stick with it.
> 
> I don't enjoy the bashing, but your thread is still informative. Really need to back off the bashing from both ends and keep learning


Its impossible for a TCW3 oil to meet FD. Totaly different formulations.
Which oil are you using?


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> .been using h1r for over 10 years, in all my 2 stroke engines at 50/1. It's the best oil I have tried . My engines are spotless inside with no carbon buildup. No need to try anything different because I have.


If your motors have zero carbon buildup something is wrong..ie your jetting is pig rich.
What other oils have you tried?


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Its impossible for a TCW3 oil to meet FD. Totaly different formulations.
> Which oil are you using?


I used it for years. Still might. I know tcw3 doesn't meet fd. But I picked up some Lucas semi and quicksilver full synthetic. Quicksilver has zero odor at 32:1. Haven't tried Lucas yet.


----------



## Andyshine77

Time's Standing Stihl said:


> What I think is comical about this thread is if you go read the first 10 pages.....everyone worships the H1-R. 3,000 posts later......its garbage


Not everyone.[emoji6]


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Its impossible for a TCW3 oil to meet FD. Totaly different formulations.
> Which oil are you using?


I reread my post and realize the confusion now. After learning that perhaps tcw3 isnt the ideal oil for a saw, i purchased a couple different fd rated oils to try


----------



## huskihl

porsche965 said:


> And here all this time I've been reading that watercraft oil was bad on chainsaws. So much for that. Can't argue with success right?


If that's sarcasm, it is what it is. I know of a logger with a 385, 390, and 395 boneyard of about 15 total saws from 2003 to current, all run on super tech tcw3 from day 1. All were retired to parts saws because of broken plastic and castings. No oil or air failures.

But sure. I'll give some of this fancy oil a try. Why not


----------



## KenJax Tree

What 2 are you trying?


----------



## huskihl

porsche965 said:


> And here all this time I've been reading that watercraft oil was bad on chainsaws. So much for that. Can't argue with success right?


I don't have the pic in front of me, but 10 or 15 years ago, jonsered oem 2 stroke oil was tcw3. If not for them damn japs we'd still be using it


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> What 2 are you trying?


Quicksilver full synthetic and the same Lucas you use


----------



## the GOAT

huskihl said:


> If that's sarcasm, it is what it is. I know of a logger with a 385, 390, and 395 boneyard of about 15 total saws from 2003 to current, all run on super tech tcw3 from day 1. All were retired to parts saws because of broken plastic and castings. No oil or air failures.
> 
> But sure. I'll give some of this fancy oil a try. Why not


Royal purple HP 2c is the new name for what they used to call their tcw3... And they now say it's fine for chainsaws.

http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/hp-2c-2-cycle-engine-oil/


----------



## porsche965

huskihl said:


> If that's sarcasm, it is what it is. I know of a logger with a 385, 390, and 395 boneyard of about 15 total saws from 2003 to current, all run on super tech tcw3 from day 1. All were retired to parts saws because of broken plastic and castings. No oil or air failures.
> 
> But sure. I'll give some of this fancy oil a try. Why not



Not at all. Not meant to be. Most all the "Pros" on this site have always dissed TCW3 and went the way of boutique oils that's all. Something about watercraft oil is meant to run at cooler temps than chainsaws is what I've always read.


----------



## RonL

H1R is not necessarily "garbage" or "junk". It is being used here for a purpose that it was not engineered for. I suspect that it is at it's best in screaming twenty thousand RPM race engines running on exotic fuels.

Racing is a good way to develop and test theory and products for non racing. But the technology needs to relate to the purpose at hand.

They say that the space race and NASA developed technology that trickled down to every day use. However, I am never going to install a five million dollar vacuum toilet in my house. I am not using H1R in my chain saws. H1R does seem to be working well in the bullet lube I formulated.

The elephant in the room is the EPA. Equipment manufacturers developed products to meet EPA standards. They contracted with oil producers to develop oils that meet EPA standards. Oil producers develop "race" oils that provide maximum endurance and performance in "race" engines. Find a "race" oil that was developed to run in a "race" engine that has similar characteristics to your chain saw.

I still think it is valid to believe that more oil provides better ring sealing and more power. Providing the engine is properly tuned for it. I also think that it provides better bearing protection. I think that 32 to 1 has become the "magic" number because the general consensus is that is the point of diminishing returns. Unless it is an all out racing machine.


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> Now wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I thought Brad and MM were running 32:1 Bel Ray H1R in their ported saws. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't H1R the oil everyone, well a lot of on this site were running before this thread started?


My recommendation has always been to run a full synthetic *oil of your choice*. I have never just recommended a certain brand exclusively.



redbull660 said:


> omg. it wasn't the porter. it wasn't the oil. *It was the amount of oil. *
> 
> once maulhead's 661 started running 40:1 H1R even though I was still running 50:1 he was kicking my azz.
> 
> He may have even been kicking my azz if he simply went to 36:1 H1R.
> 
> For the last time H1R simply has more oil in the bottle than most others. When u dump it into the gas you actually have MORE oil in the gas then others. Need less H1R to do the same job as others.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the porters. Or the oil being "crap".


YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN THAT, NOT IN THE LEAST!!! Until you test some of these other high viscosity ester oils, you haven't begun to prove that. You're just as bent on H1-R as bwalker is on Yamalube, yet have little evidence to prove your point. Can you not see that?



Andyshine77 said:


> How do you know it isn't the oil if you didn't compare other oils??


Exactly!!!


----------



## RonL

Going back to the original Ultralight testing showed that H1R provided clean burning and protection for the engine. It also showed that H1R used 15% more mix to produce the same amount of work. Other people that used H1R indicated that they had to open the carburetor jets to let the H1R mix run properly. There are other oils that provide the benefits of H1R without affecting the combustion efficiency.

I suspect that the combustion efficiency of H1R may push some of the auto tune carburetors outside of the range that they can compensate for.


----------



## RonL

I feel like a barn yard rat when I read some of these oil threads. You have to dig through a pile of **** to find the occasional seed.


----------



## redbull660

RonL said:


> Going back to the original Ultralight testing showed that H1R provided clean burning and protection for the engine. It also showed that H1R used 15% more mix to produce the same amount of work. Other people that used H1R indicated that they had to open the carburetor jets to let the H1R mix run properly. There are other oils that provide the benefits of H1R without affecting the combustion efficiency.
> 
> I suspect that the combustion efficiency of H1R may push some of the auto tune carburetors outside of the range that they can compensate for.



If that is indeed the case then H1R should be slower than the other oils in the mtronic.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Not at all. Not meant to be. Most all the "Pros" on this site have always dissed TCW3 and went the way of boutique oils that's all. Something about watercraft oil is meant to run at cooler temps than chainsaws is what I've always read.


That's not an old wives tale tcw3 oils should not be used in air cooled equipment. The chemistries are totaly different.
And honestly why would when there are plenty of cheap air cooled oils out there?


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> H1R is not necessarily "garbage" or "junk". It is being used here for a purpose that it was not engineered for. I suspect that it is at it's best in screaming twenty thousand RPM race engines running on exotic fuels.
> 
> Racing is a good way to develop and test theory and products for non racing. But the technology needs to relate to the purpose at hand.
> 
> They say that the space race and NASA developed technology that trickled down to every day use. However, I am never going to install a five million dollar vacuum toilet in my house. I am not using H1R in my chain saws. H1R does seem to be working well in the bullet lube I formulated.
> 
> The elephant in the room is the EPA. Equipment manufacturers developed products to meet EPA standards. They contracted with oil producers to develop oils that meet EPA standards. Oil producers develop "race" oils that provide maximum endurance and performance in "race" engines. Find a "race" oil that was developed to run in a "race" engine that has similar characteristics to your chain saw.
> 
> I still think it is valid to believe that more oil provides better ring sealing and more power. Providing the engine is properly tuned for it. I also think that it provides better bearing protection. I think that 32 to 1 has become the "magic" number because the general consensus is that is the point of diminishing returns. Unless it is an all out racing machine.


If it.inhibits combustion at low RPMs it will do the same at high RPMs. And most racing two strokes are turning less rpm than our saws.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> My recommendation has always been to run a full synthetic *oil of your choice*. I have never just recommended a certain brand exclusively.
> 
> 
> YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN THAT, NOT IN THE LEAST!!! Until you test some of these other high viscosity ester oils, you haven't begun to prove that. You're just as bent on H1-R as bwalker is on Yamalube, yet have little evidence to prove your point. Can you not see that?
> 
> 
> Exactly!!!





blsnelling said:


> My recommendation has always been to run a full synthetic *oil of your choice*. I have never just recommended a certain brand exclusively.
> 
> 
> YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN THAT, NOT IN THE LEAST!!! Until you test some of these other high viscosity ester oils, you haven't begun to prove that. You're just as bent on H1-R as bwalker is on Yamalube, yet have little evidence to prove your point. Can you not see that?
> 
> 
> Exactly!!!


I'm not bent on 2R, it is just a great oil for a good price with a track record longer than any of these other oils. There are other good oils out there,just not H1R. IT'S TRULY CRAP!


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> That's not an old wives tale tcw3 oils should not be used in air cooled equipment. The chemistries are totaly different.
> And honestly why would when there are plenty of cheap air cooled oils out there?


There isn't much around locally that's inexpensive. Yamaha dealer $15 per pint. Stihl dealer has small bottles of fb rated ultra for same $. So they go to Walmart and get a gallon for $12. Speaks for itself. 
Honestly I never knew the difference, that chainsaws "required" a different oil. The "other stuff" always worked so I never inquired about it. Maybe I'm becoming more of a keyboard queen now I guess. Easier on the back


----------



## bwalker

Walmart has a air cooled oil and penzoil aircooled is found everywhere.


----------



## huskihl

Not in Gaylord or Petoskey


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> Not in Gaylord or





huskihl said:


> Not in Gaylord or Petoskey


Gaylord has a Citgo. Citgo aircooled is a decent oil and it's actually FC/FD certified.
I have seen equipment ran on tcw3 outboard oils and the engines are a mess. Tcw3 oils are designed to be run under high load and low temps. They are ashless, which means they have no mettalic detergents or anti wear additives. Instead they use nitrogen amine based dispersents, which will not even work at the temps a aircooled engine operates at.


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Gaylord has a Citgo. Citgo aircooled is a decent oil and it's actually FC/FD certified.
> I have seen equipment ran on tcw3 outboard oils and the engines are a mess. Tcw3 oils are designed to be run under high load and low temps. They are ashless, which means they have no mettalic detergents or anti wear additives. Instead they use nitrogen amine based dispersents, which will not even work at the temps a aircooled engine operates at.


Hmm. The citgo was the one I was looking for. I'll check next time again. I've seen the pennzoil one before but it's been awhile. Any possibility that citgo is now mystic ? A couple searches redirected me to that.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Just a quick search i found 11 places in Gaylord and Petoskey that sell Lucas


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Just a quick search i found 11 places in Gaylord and Petoskey that sell Lucas


Yep. It's a lot easier to throw in the cart when you're at walmart at 10pm grocery shopping tho. I think advance auto has it. I went there to get some. At 9:02 pm.......... I ordered a gallon through jeggs. $30 delivered


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> My recommendation has always been to run a full synthetic *oil of your choice*. I have never just recommended a certain brand exclusively.
> 
> 
> YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN THAT, NOT IN THE LEAST!!! Until you test some of these other high viscosity ester oils, you haven't begun to prove that. You're just as bent on H1-R as bwalker is on Yamalube, yet have little evidence to prove your point. Can you not see that?
> 
> 
> Exactly!!!




Maulhead's MM 661 improved throughout the day after switching from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R . 

1. *It wasn't mastermind's port work & it wasn't the H1R. It was the AMOUNT of H1R* - After switching from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R the saw improved through out the rest of the day. LATER in the day Mitch's ported 661 at *32:1 ultra was equal* *to* Maulhead's MM661 running *40:1 H1R*. 
*
Fact is ...Multiple people saw this and Tested this!*

*
sorry this doesn't adhere to the 32:1 gospel. Bottom line is You just don't need to pour in as much H1R to do the SAME job. *



_"Many other 2-stroke oils utilize light solvents as carriers in order to better dissolve them in the gasoline and carry the additives easier (some are up to 30% solvent). These light solvents do burn very easily and will attribute to the combustion. The H1-R is pure oil and does not have any solvents, this is one of the reasons H1-R can also sometimes be used at a leaner mix ratio than other oils as well."_


----------



## redbull660

Does that make H1R better or faster? I dunno.

better - you'd have to measure over time with tear downs. mastermind had good success with it. I'm not saying we should be running h1R at 50:1. I would bet 36:1 would have no issues (in ported saw). In my tests 32:1 seemed to be the tipping point. You'd see it with less concentrated oils as well if you ran them at heavier ratios where the amount of actual oil in the gas was the same. For 800 that might be 28:1 2r maybe 20-24:1 Hard to tell. But you'd have issues.

faster - we'd have to test the oils. I plan to but not sure when.


----------



## redbull660

To say that all these 2T oils are the same - is false.

To say we can run all these 2T oils at 32:1 and expect the same level of performance and protection - is false.

not the greatest example but all I can think of right now cuz I'm cleaning (mother's day). It's like saying all dish soaps are the same and will deliver the same quality of cleaning using the same amount. 

Completely ridiculous.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> ...* it wasn't the H1R. It was the AMOUNT of H1R* - After switching from 32:1 H1R to 40:1 H1R the saw improved through out the rest of the day.


Please tell me how you know this? This may or not be true, but you have done no testing at all to prove this. Until you test some other high viscosity ester oils, you simply do not know this to be true! It may be, but *you have not proven that!!*


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> To say that all these 2T oils are the same - is false.
> 
> To say we can run all these 2T oils at 32:1 and expect the same level of performance and protection - is false.
> 
> not the greatest example but all I can think of right now cuz I'm cleaning (mother's day). It's like saying all dish soaps are the same and will deliver the same quality of cleaning using the same amount.
> 
> Completely ridiculous.


This may be true as well, but until you test some other oils, your making assumptions.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Does that make H1R better or faster? I dunno.
> 
> better - you'd have to measure over time with tear downs. mastermind had good success with it.


Again, you're making assumptions. I can pretty much guarantee you that he would have equal success with most any quality oil running 32:1. Please stop making assumptions and drawing conclusions until you have done some additional testing.


----------



## blsnelling

BTW, I'm not against either you or your testing. You simply need to do more of it before making many of the statements.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> This may be true as well, but until you test some other oils, your making assumptions.



if they were equal they would have the same chemical & physical make up. the fact that they have different physical properties like different viscosities = they are designed for different applications. I'm sorry man I just can't help you...it just doesn't get much more elementary than that. 



blsnelling said:


> Please tell me how you know this? This may or not be true, but you have done no testing at all to prove this. Until you test some other high viscosity ester oils, you simply do not know this to be true! It may be, but *you have not proven that!!*



No. The rest of the post explains why. I'm not going to type it out differently...reword it. Instead you tell me how the rest of the post DOESN"T prove it.



blsnelling said:


> Again, you're making assumptions. I can pretty much guarantee you that he would have equal success with most any quality oil running 32:1. Please stop making assumptions and drawing conclusions until you have done some additional testing.



I'm making assumptions? He had success. Fact. That's not an assumption. You just made the "assumption" with " I can pretty much guarantee you that he would have equal success with most any quality oil running 32:1". 




Oh I know your not against my testing. Cuz no one else is going to do it. No one is going to be as meticulous, take the time, or spend the money.


----------



## blsnelling

If you can't see where you're making assumptions and drawing conclusions without having tested what you're saying, then this conversation is pretty pointless. Sorry. I've tried to help you understand how you could make this better, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.


----------



## redbull660

wtf - saw was running 32:1 H1R. We switched it to 40:1. It improved and was equal to another porter's 661 running 32:1 ultra. what is the problem? The saw was running to much oil. Belray said it themselves....to much oil can slow down the piston. How in the hell can you not make the connection? It's clear as day!

There is more actual oil in the bottle of H1R. you can see this via the MSDS's. 

You dump in 4oz of belray and 4oz of yamalube...there is MORE oil in the belray. With all these 2T's you will reach a point where you have to much actual oil in the mix and it slows down the piston. Where that is with the others I don't know. I know with belray H1R it's some where around 32:1. 

Good god. This isn't that hard!


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> If you can't see where you're making assumptions and drawing conclusions without having tested what you're saying, then this conversation is pretty pointless. Sorry. I've tried to help you understand how you could make this better, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.


The guys a stone..there is no use.
the only thing he has done has been to provide more anecdotal evidence that H1R is garbage oil.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> wtf - saw was running 32:1 H1R. We switched it to 40:1. It improved and was equal to another porter's 661 running 32:1 ultra. what is the problem? The saw was running to much oil. Belray said it themselves....to much oil can slow down the piston. How in the hell can you not make the connection? It's clear as day!
> 
> There is more actual oil in the bottle of H1R. you can see this via the MSDS's.
> 
> You dump in 4oz of belray and 4oz of yamalube...there is MORE oil in the belray. With all these 2T's you will reach a point where you have to much actual oil in the mix and it slows down the piston. Where that is with the others I don't know. I know with belray H1R it's some where around 32:1.
> 
> Good god. This isn't that hard!


You're assuming that it's because there's too much oil. *Until you have tested additional oils*, you simply do not know that. * If other high viscosity ester oils have the same affect, then you have proven something.* You haven't performed that testing yet, so are there for making assumptions and drawing conclusions that you simply do not know to be true.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> wtf - saw was running 32:1 H1R. We switched it to 40:1. It improved and was equal to another porter's 661 running 32:1 ultra. what is the problem? The saw was running to much oil. Belray said it themselves....to much oil can slow down the piston. How in the hell can you not make the connection? It's clear as day!
> 
> There is more actual oil in the bottle of H1R. you can see this via the MSDS's.
> 
> You dump in 4oz of belray and 4oz of yamalube...there is MORE oil in the belray. With all these 2T's you will reach a point where you have to much actual oil in the mix and it slows down the piston. Where that is with the others I don't know. I know with belray H1R it's some where around 32:1.
> 
> Good god. This isn't that hard!



With a good oil there is no such thing as too much oil down to 16:1. Migration times and load determine the optimal oil ratio, not the oil itself. And Mercury Marine, Gordon Jennings and others have documented that more oil=more power.
And H1R is designed for an application, mx bikes, that spec 32:1 ratios. Are you telling me the oil won't wprk on the application it's marketed toward?
The problem with H1R isn't the amount of oil it's the fact it does weird things to conbustion, just as you found out, just as I have observed, just as Andre has observed and just as the Ultra light test referenced earlier proved.
Beyond that, it's dirty burning crap. T
It really has zero redeeming qualities.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> You're assuming that it's because there's too much oil. *Until you have tested additional oils*, you simply do not know that. * If other high viscosity ester oils have the same affect, then you have proven something.* You haven't performed that testing yet, so are there for making assumptions and drawing conclusions that you simply do not know to be true.


And even then you would only prove that the his saw doesn't run good on that ratio. You could not determine why based on these totaly un scientific BS tests.


----------



## blsnelling

Let me demonstrate my point. The very same tests and results that you are using to try and prove that the results with H1-R prove that it's simply too much oil, could also be used to try and prove that it significantly inhibits combustion and performance. Because you are fixated on proving it to be such a great oil, you don't seem to see this. You think you're being unbiased, but you are not. Again, until you have tested other oils, you *cannot* draw any conclusions.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> With a good oil there is no such thing as too much oil down to 16:1. Migration times and load determine the optimal oil ratio, not the oil itself. And Mercury Marine, Gordon Jennings and others have documented that more oil=more power.
> And H1R is designed for an application, mx bikes, that spec 32:1 ratios. Are you telling me the oil won't wprk on the application it's marketed toward?
> The problem with H1R isn't the amount of oil it's the fact it does weird things to conbustion, just as you found out, just as I have observed, just as Andre has observed and just as the Ultra light test referenced earlier proved.
> Beyond that, it's dirty burning crap. T
> It really has zero redeeming qualities.



So I could run yamalube, lucas, 710, 800, r50 at 16:1 in my saw and it would perform the same as 32:1?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Let me demonstrate my point. The very same tests and results that you are using to try and prove that the results with H1-R prove that it's simply too much oil, could also be used to try and prove that it significantly inhibits combustion and performance. Because you are fixated on proving it to be such a great oil, you don't seem to see this. You think you're being unbiased, but you are not. Again, until you have tested other oils, you *cannot* draw any conclusions.


Exactly! And if it's happening at 32:1, it's happening at 50: 1 to a lesser degree.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> So I could run yamalube, lucas, 710, 800, r50 at 16:1 in my saw and it would perform the same as 32:1?


I know yamalube runs fine at 16:1 as does 800 as its commonly used at that ratio in shifter karts.
I have ran 2R down to 20:1 with excellant results.
I can't comment on the others. And I can't comment on your saw, given the Mtronic setup.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I know yamalube runs fine at 16:1 as does 800 as its commonly used at that ratio in shifter karts.
> I have ran 2R down to 20:1 with excellant results.
> I can't comment on the others. And I can't comment on your saw, given the Mtronic setup.




ok fine the 660 and motul 800 at 16:1 vs 32:1. fair enough?


----------



## bwalker

Redbull, are you running your saws commercially?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> ok fine the 660 and motul 800 at 16:1 vs 32:1. fair enough?


From what I gather your saw likely wont compensate for 16:1, so just run them all at 32:1.


----------



## big t double

redbull660 said:


> ....It's like saying all dish soaps are the same and will deliver the same quality of cleaning using the same amount.



Exactly! Every one knows Dawn is the best...any one that says any different is just a hack wannabe dishwasher. Palmolive...pshhh


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> 660 is regular adjustable carb. not mtronic.


Run em all at 16:1 then.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Or it might just inhibit combudtion because it's garbage.
> Many other QUALITY oils run good down to 16:1 including 800 which is a similar viscosity.



For this entire thread you've said H1R is trash or garbage or inhibits combustion or burns dirty.

please explain how it inhibits combustion. Detailed answer. ...for all of us.




bwalker said:


> Run em all at 16:1 then.



I can't believe u think that is ok to do.


----------



## bwalker

big t double said:


> Exactly! Every one knows Dawn is the best...any one that says any different is just a hack wannabe dishwasher. Palmolive...pshhh


Clearly they are not all the same. And clearly h1r is garbage...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> For this entire thread you've said H1R is trash or garbage or inhibits combustion or burns dirty.
> 
> please explain how it inhibits combustion. Detailed answer. ...for all of us.


It doesn't matter how...it does.Your own testing proves it anecdotaly as does the ultralight test...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> It doesn't matter how...it does.Your own testing proves it anecdotaly as does the ultralight test...




gawd your such a little troll... I can't believe you've convinced Brad and likely others, that it H1R inhibits combustion with out providing some sort of scientific reasoning.


So let's just be clear...

So if H1R provided the same protection and the same performance at 40:1 as another oil at 32:1, THEREFORE some how H1R inhibits combustion? 

Not that it is purer (more actual oil in the bottle) and you need to pour less h1r to do the same job... like I say?


----------



## big t double

bwalker said:


> Clearly they are not all the same. And clearly h1r is garbage...


Very true...I would never wash my dishes with h1r. Like I said...it's dawn or nothing.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> gawd your such a little troll... I can't believe you've convinced Brad and likely others, that it H1R inhibits combustion with out providing some sort of scientific reasoning.
> 
> 
> So let's just be clear...
> 
> So if H1R provided the same protection and the same performance at 40:1 as another oil at 32:1, THEREFORE some how H1R inhibits combustion?
> 
> Not that it is purer (more actual oil in the bottle) and you need to pour less h1r to do the same job... like I say?


Your the only moron left that can't see it...


----------



## redbull660

Same performance - maul head's 661 running 40:1 H1R ran neck and neck with mitch's ported 661 running 32:1 ultra. 

Same protection - i posted pictures of my 661 which had only run on H1R at 42:1 (leaner than 40:1!) and everyone said it looked fine so far...neeed more time but looked completely fine so far. Furthermore no one had any protection issues with h1r before I posted this test and bwalker showed up. 


So obviously since H1R produced these results at 40-42:1. Then it "inhibits combustion" ...no scientific reasoning why. Just it does and it's crap and garbage...don't question me. 


Not the logical reasoning... that the other oil has solvents in it, which isn't actual oil or less quality and you need to pour more of it 32:1 to get the same effect as H1R at 40-42:1? 


See brad ...I'm not making assumptions. Because 1. the logic and evidence is there to support what im saying. 2. there is no science given behind walker's inhibits combustion. he's just trolling it up as usual. 


If you want to believe him, that's your business and if you need more evidence then conduct the test yourself. Run 800 at 24:1 32:1 40:1 hell do 16:1... bwalker says it's ok! Let me/us know how that works out for ya.


----------



## bwalker

Other oils which font have solvents don't do this...
But some of the better oils have solvents, like Maxima K2. Because oils that use PIB'S in their blends, IE the latest technology oils like K2 need solvents because PIB is really thick. Oils like 2R and K2 would be much thicker than a old tech straight ester oil like h1r with their solvents not present.
The newest tech oils and just about all those carrying the latest certs have solvents. SOLVENTS ARE NOT AN ISSUE...


----------



## redbull660

I didn't say they were an ISSUE. I said they took up volume of the bottle and thus affect mix ratio...how much actual oil you get in your gas when you dump said bottle of oil with solvents into it.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I didn't say they were an ISSUE. I said they took up volume of the bottle and thus affect mix ratio...how much actual oil you get in your gas when you dump said bottle of oil with solvents into it.


Forget about em..the petrol engineers who formulated them know much more than you!
And they don't effect mix ratio like your suggesting at all.


----------



## RonL

bwalker said:


> Clearly they are not all the same. And clearly h1r is garbage...



No one is winning any type of race, anywhere, using H1R?


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> No one is winning any type of race, anywhere, using H1R?


The guys that really know what they are doing won't use it. Doesn't stop the culls... It's not used widely in kart racing where small differances are the differance between winning and losing.


----------



## RonL

Interesting!

So no one anywhere is winning any race with H1R?


----------



## KenJax Tree

This thread is gonna go on forever, no end in sight and still nothing will be proven.[emoji1]


----------



## RonL

KenJax Tree said:


> This thread is gonna go on forever, no end in sight and still nothing will be proven.[emoji1]



If you took all the oils that are formulated for all the parameters that are important to chainsaw users and spent tens of thousands of hours testing them, you would find that some new oil just came out that you now need to test. I think that you would also find that there is not a substantial difference in the well formulated oils. There is probably some boutique oil that is somewhat better for your purposes. Whether it is worth it for your purposes is up to you.


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> Interesting!
> 
> So no one anywhere is winning any race with H1R?


Sadly, not many races involve two.strokes anymore. Mx racing has went almost exclusively 4 stroke. Karts are still running two.strokes and I have never seen H1R used. Snowmobiles running pre mix are rare, but of those that DO I have never seen H1R being used. And on and on. H1R's hay day was back in the 90's and it sucked then too..


----------



## mdavlee

redbull660 said:


> gawd your such a little troll... I can't believe you've convinced Brad and likely others, that it H1R inhibits combustion with out providing some sort of scientific reasoning.
> 
> 
> So let's just be clear...
> 
> So if H1R provided the same protection and the same performance at 40:1 as another oil at 32:1, THEREFORE some how H1R inhibits combustion?
> 
> Not that it is purer (more actual oil in the bottle) and you need to pour less h1r to do the same job... like I say?


I don't see how the more oil in it slows down the piston so much. I've ran 25:1 milling with klotz R50 and original and didn't see near the tune change that H1R does. 

Not sure it's inhibiting combustion but it does something to slow the saws down and use more fuel. The last part to me was the biggest problem on some saws like a ported 660 with the smaller jet. 2 turns out and still hitting 14k.


----------



## RonL

Well, as I said before, technology is constantly evolving. Otherwise we would still be using 30 weight non detergent mineral oil at 16 to 1. I believe I still have some out in the barn.


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> If you took all the oils that are formulated for all the parameters that are important to chainsaw users and spent tens of thousands of hours testing them, you would find that some new oil just came out that you now need to test. I think that you would also find that there is not a substantial difference in the well formulated oils. There is probably some boutique oil that is somewhat better for your purposes. Whether it is worth it for your purposes is up to you.


The average guy on this site woukd be well served using a OEM oil or one thats actually JASO FC/FD and or ISO EGD certified like Citgo Air Cooled or the like. Honestly most of the saws you see pics of here are garage queens anyways and yoh will never see any differance in a saw that's rarely run.


----------



## bwalker

RonL said:


> Well, as I said before, technology is constantly evolving. Otherwise we would still be using 30 weight non detergent mineral oil at 16 to 1. I believe I still have some out in the barn.


True, but two cycle oil technology is pretty much stallled because two cyles are a dying breed.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> I don't see how the more oil in it slows down the piston so much. I've ran 25:1 milling with klotz R50 and original and didn't see near the tune change that H1R does.
> 
> Not sure it's inhibiting combustion but it does something to slow the saws down and use more fuel. The last part to me was the biggest problem on some saws like a ported 660 with the smaller jet. 2 turns out and still hitting 14k.


It doesnt. Redcull is guessing again and it's no supprise he's wrong..


----------



## KenJax Tree

Redcull


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> gawd your such a little troll... I can't believe you've convinced Brad and likely others, that it H1R inhibits combustion with out providing some sort of scientific reasoning.


Seriously? No one has proven that H1-R inhibit combustion, just like you haven't proven it's simply too thick. And just for the record, I'm looking at the evidence not people's options.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> True, but two cycle oil technology is pretty much stallled because two cyles are a dying breed.



Really ? , geez you sure have a lot of special info and insight into all things oil .


----------



## hacknstack




----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Really ? , geez you sure have a lot of special info and insight into all things oil .


It doesn't take a genius to figure out the two cycle market has shrunk by a huge amount in the last decade....


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Seriously? No one has proven that H1-R inhibit combustion, just like you haven't proven it's simply too thick. And just for the record, I'm looking at the evidence not people's options.


The ultra test had much less variable.than Redbulls test and they came to the conclusion that H1R required much richer jetting. This is proof of inhibiting conbustion efficiency. Many others have noticed the same thing anecdotally.. How much proof do you need?


----------



## blsnelling

I'm talking about the testing and evidence that RedBull it's using to make his "opinions".


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I'm talking about the testing and evidence that RedBull it's using to make his "opinions".


Yea, that's complete BS.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> It doesn't take a genius to figure out the two cycle market has shrunk by a huge amount in the last decade....



It may have shunk in some areas but it's growing in others . Saws and *** are hot as ever .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> It may have shunk in some areas but it's growing in others . Saws and *** are hot as ever .


In *** it's shrunk, you can't buy a Stihl trimmer or blower that's two stroke for instance. Hardly any outboard motors are sold that are not either four strokes or DI two trokes. The snowmobile market is going four stroke and yamaha is the only jap bike maker producing two strokes.
The market has imploded in a decade.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> In *** it's shrunk, you can't buy a Stihl trimmer or blower that's two stroke for instance. Hardly any outboard motors are sold that are not either four strokes or DI two trokes. The snowmobile market is going four stroke and yamaha is the only jap bike maker producing two strokes.
> The market has imploded in a decade.



Don't know on the outboard/bike area too much but you had better have a look again at the *** equipment and the engines used .


----------



## CR500

blsnelling said:


> I'm talking about the testing and evidence that RedBull it's using to make his "opinions".


So anyways Brad what oil are you running at the moment 800RR or 710?

Just wondering if you have tried the RR blends out yet.


----------



## blsnelling

CR500 said:


> So anyways Brad what oil are you running at the moment 800RR or 710?
> 
> Just wondering if you have tried the RR blends out yet.


Unfortunately, no. I don't have much opportunity to cut.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> In *** it's shrunk, you can't buy a Stihl trimmer or blower that's two stroke for instance. Hardly any outboard motors are sold that are not either four strokes or DI two trokes. The snowmobile market is going four stroke and yamaha is the only jap bike maker producing two strokes.
> The market has imploded in a decade.


They still make both trimmers and blowers with 2-stroke engines.


----------



## KG441c

Yep. 4 mix


----------



## KG441c

Which saw will make more power?
1- saw running 32:1 ratio
2- saw running 1lb of fuel only mixed with 14.6lb of air
Of course until saw 2 burns up!! Lol


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Yep. 4 mix


No. They still make actual 2-stroke trimmers and blowers. 

The FS70 trimmer - http://www.stihlusa.com/products/trimmers-and-brushcutters/professional-trimmers/fs70rce/

I believe most of the homeowner blowers are 2-strokes. I thought they still sole the BR420 backpack, but don't see it any more.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

blsnelling said:


> No. They still make actual 2-stroke trimmers and blowers.
> 
> The FS70 trimmer - http://www.stihlusa.com/products/trimmers-and-brushcutters/professional-trimmers/fs70rce/
> 
> I believe most of the homeowner blowers are 2-strokes. I thought they still sole the BR420 backpack, but don't see it any more.


the new FS94 is a great trimmer also and it is more agile compared to the fs70.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> Yep. 4 mix


https://vanceope.stihldealer.net/pr...ofessional-trimmers/fs94r/#specifications_tab


----------



## Deleted member 83629

blsnelling said:


> No. They still make actual 2-stroke trimmers and blowers.
> 
> The FS70 trimmer - http://www.stihlusa.com/products/trimmers-and-brushcutters/professional-trimmers/fs70rce/
> 
> I believe most of the homeowner blowers are 2-strokes. I thought they still sole the BR420 backpack, but don't see it any more.


the BR430 replaced the 420 and it is not 4 mix.


----------



## KG441c

I like the 4 mix . Just dont like the plastic cam lobe


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i dont like them at all had a fs 90 for 3 yrs it need valve adjustment annually and needed the carbon to be cleaned yearly will stihls carbon cleaner.
and the valve train on the 4 mix blowers and trimmers is to be desired.


----------



## Trx250r180

Changing from h1r to a different oil on the milling 660 and hybrid .had to retune to get it to run right,I lost the gurgle sound at part throttle I had with h1r with the new oil,muffler is dry inside now,and spark plug is firing cleaner now,have only used 3 gallons of gas so far, so too early to say too much yet


----------



## Ray Bell

Trx250r180 said:


> Changing from h1r to a different oil on the milling 660 and hybrid .had to retune to get it to run right,I lost the gurgle sound at part throttle I had with h1r with the new oil,muffler is dry inside now,and spark plug is firing cleaner now,have only used 3 gallons of gas so far, so too early to say too much yet


What oil are you using now?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

hey you midget you left us hanging here!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Ray Bell said:


> What oil are you using now?


supertech outboard im betting.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> In *** it's shrunk, you can't buy a Stihl trimmer or blower that's two stroke for instance.




That's a lie.

I just bought a Stihl 94R string trimmer. How many do you want?

Straight two stroke engine. Not 4 stroke or 4 mix whatsoever.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i don't want any because i bought the last production model husqvarna 323L this march for 200.00 it cost close to what a 94r cost but i wanted one of the last non strato 2 strokes.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> Seriously? No one has proven that H1-R inhibit combustion, just like you haven't proven it's simply too thick. And just for the record, I'm looking at the evidence not people's options.



I didn't say it was too thick. 

I said there is more actual oil in the bottle of h1r than others. Major difference.


Yamadope runs at 32:1. at least 10% of it per their own freakin MSDS is solvent. Solvent ain't oil. No lubricating properties. Fact.

4 oz bottle of yamadope. 
90% or 3.6oz of it is made up of oil for ease of calculation I'm counting everything in there as oil except the solvents.
10% or .4 oz of it is made up of solvent. 

You dump in your 4oz bottle of yamadope into your 1 gallon of gas. 32:1 right? WRONG. Since .4oz of the bottle is solvent, and 3.6 oz of it is made up of oil. You take the 3.6oz of oil vs 1 gallon of gas (128oz.) 128/3.6 = *35.6:1* NOT 32:1 as ya all think. 


Now take 4oz bottle of H1R
100% = oil. 

32:1 is really 32:1 ! 


*The math doesn't lie. * 

*If you wanna compare apples to apples. Then you run 32:1 yamadope vs 36:1 H1R. *At least in this example. I would estimate the total non lubricating fluids in yamadope at closer to 20%+. But it's at least 10% per their own MSDS.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> i dont like them at all had a fs 90 for 3 yrs it need valve adjustment annually and needed the carbon to be cleaned yearly will stihls carbon cleaner.
> 
> and the valve train on the 4 mix blowers and trimmers is to be desired.


Ya that plastic cam lobe is the part in it I dont like. The rest is built pretty well amd the 4 mix motors have pretty good torque


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> i don't want any because i bought the last production model husqvarna 323L this march for 200.00 it cost close to what a 94r cost but i wanted one of the last non strato 2 strokes.


I have a 326LS and i'm very happy with it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> I have a 326LS and i'm very happy with it.


im very happy with mine i gutted the cat muffler and enlarged the exit its a mean trimmer now.
i put it against my dads fs 85 and it doesn't compare.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> They still make both trimmers and blowers with 2-stroke engines.


I stand corrected, but the point is the two stroke market has shrunk by a huge amount in the last decade.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I didn't say it was too thick.
> 
> I said there is more actual oil in the bottle of h1r than others. Major difference.
> 
> 
> Yamadope runs at 32:1. at least 10% of it per their own freakin MSDS is solvent. Solvent ain't oil. No lubricating properties. Fact.
> 
> 4 oz bottle of yamadope.
> 90% or 3.6oz of it is made up of oil for ease of calculation I'm counting everything in there as oil except the solvents.
> 10% or .4 oz of it is made up of solvent.
> 
> You dump in your 4oz bottle of yamadope into your 1 gallon of gas. 32:1 right? WRONG. Since .4oz of the bottle is solvent, and 3.6 oz of it is made up of oil. You take the 3.6oz of oil vs 1 gallon of gas (128oz.) 128/3.6 = *35.6:1* NOT 32:1 as ya all think.
> 
> 
> Now take 4oz bottle of H1R
> 100% = oil.
> 
> 32:1 is really 32:1 !
> 
> 
> *The math doesn't lie. *
> 
> *If you wanna compare apples to apples. Then you run 32:1 yamadope vs 36:1 H1R. *At least in this example. I would estimate the total non lubricating fluids in yamadope at closer to 20%+. But it's at least 10% per their own MSDS.


Using your logic...H1R still runs like crap at 36:1..


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> i don't want any because i bought the last production model husqvarna 323L this march for 200.00 it cost close to what a 94r cost but i wanted one of the last non strato 2 strokes.


Strato Huskies use Redmax tech. I'D take a Redmax or a Husky strato any day over my FS-85,but it just won't give up the ghost.


----------



## RedFir Down

Here is an interesting read about H1R. Starts on page 2. http://www.wdarc.org/articles_files/2 stroke Oil Test.pdf

I googled "does belray h1r affect combustion". It was the second link from the top. Im sure there is more out there also.


----------



## bwalker

RedFir Down said:


> Here is an interesting read about H1R. Starts on page 2. http://www.wdarc.org/articles_files/2 stroke Oil Test.pdf
> 
> I googled "does belray h1r affect combustion". It was the second link from the top. Im sure there is more out there also.


That's the ultra light oil test referenced earlier.


----------



## Trx250r180

H1 r does effect combustion in my saws, after trying another oil I can tell the difference now in how they run


----------



## KenJax Tree

I bought another pint of Yamalube Saturday so 5 more gallon mixed @ 40:1, now lets see if we can get something the grenade


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I bought another pint of Yamalube Saturday so 5 more gallon mixed @ 40:1, now lets see if we can get something the grenade


I have a friend that uses it in his sons 80cc dirtbikes at 50:1. The kids a pretty good ice racer and just screams that bike. It's always worked well for them


----------



## Effs

The article shows why Belray is so good!!!!


----------



## bwalker

Even if H1R didn't do wonky things to combustion, I still would not use it any more. No excuse for a oil to have deposits in the ring grooves like this. These sorts of deposits can and do cause ring mobility issues, which intern causes blowboy and premature failure.


----------



## Effs

It's funny I've never seen a piston like that using Belray , maybe the fuel was bad.


----------



## Effs

Effs said:


> It's funny I've never seen a piston like that using Belray , maybe the fuel was bad.


You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink !!


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> The article shows why Belray is so good!!!!


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> It's funny I've never seen a piston like that using Belray , maybe the fuel was bad.


Fuel was fine.
How many motors ran on H1R have you tore down?


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink !!


That's about it...


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> Fuel was fine.
> How many motors ran on H1R have you tore down?


Quite a few, all of them high dollar 2 cycle aircraft engines ranging from 50cc to 150cc, I have not found an oil that works as good as h1r. There are other tests in the aircraft engine field that show the same results as the one posted .


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> Quite a few, all of them high dollar 2 cycle aircraft engines ranging from 50cc to 150cc, I have not found an oil that works as good as h1r. There are other tests in the aircraft engine field that show the same results as the one posted .


Your not looking very hard then. Have any pics.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Even if H1R didn't do wonky things to combustion, I still would not use it any more. No excuse for a oil to have deposits in the ring grooves like this. These sorts of deposits can and do cause ring mobility issues, which intern causes blowboy and premature failure.View attachment 424000


My milling 660 has deposits like this with h1r ,it has had a good amount of h1r ,run through it ,rich even ,black carbon with white/gray speckles ,
Here is a plug ,used for 2.5 gallons of fuel with a different oil ,still tuned rich ,but seems to burn pretty clean still ,muffler is dryer inside and not as sooty now ,piston has a nice coat of oil on it ,i want to see what this plug looks like after 20 or so gallons,am sure this thread will be going still in a couple months to repost after more fuel run through it ,lol


----------



## redbull660

I asked Belray about H1R inhibiting combustion. The response -

---------------------------------------------
belray - H1-R is not meant to conserve fuel or to be an economical oil. Its purpose is to produce the most power and protect the best. It is a high performance race oil that protects engines running at their power limits and keeps them going at all costs. In bikes, the higher usage of fuel can usually be fixed through carb or injector tuning if that’s what the user wants at a performance cost. In saws, I don’t know.

The point is that it does not inhibit combustion. It just takes more fuel to run at that level. There is more energy produced by the engine and as the law of conservation of energy tells us, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So more power equals more fuel.

------------------------------------
me:
So some oils are formulated to conserve fuel or be economical? Curious how this is done...the short version please. 
------------------------------------
belray

We don’t concern ourselves with fuel conservation, and since we don’t do it, I don’t research it. I couldn’t tell you what goes into an energy conserving oil that makes it conserve fuel.
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
*So based on that ...the only way to be sure on any of this crap is to test em.

I think I will test

2r - 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
710 - 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
sI-7- 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1

800 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1 50:1
H1R - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1 50:1*
------------------------------------------

Just not liking what im seeing on R50 so I'm cutting it...


From: Redbull660 [mailto: ]
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 7:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: r50

Hello, I'm wondering about using the R-50 in my chainsaw. It's a Stihl 661
91cc 7.5hp runs 13,500 off load WOT and say approx 9- 10,000 on load. (in wood)
Generally the saw is idling for a little bit and then will run 10 sec-1min
long cuts at WOT and then idling for a bit until the next cut. Idle =
~2800rpm.


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: >
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: FW: r50

Hello ,

The R50 is a great product for high rpm use, but most of your time would be at idle or at about 10,000 RPMs which would make me think that the 50:1 TechniPlate would be a better product for your application.


----------



## Moparmyway

I aint a fan of the once in a while overwhelming smell of R50, but everything else about it is just perfect.

So far, 800 and R50 have given me the best running saws ........... smoothe idle, crispy response, power at the high end.

How much R50 would you need to do your test with it ?


----------



## the GOAT

Me thinks any performs gains I'd see in my lifetime from using any of the various oils have been more then negated by the time I've wasted reading this thread. And I've only been following it since page 175.


----------



## KenJax Tree

the GOAT said:


> Me thinks any performs gains I'd see in my lifetime from using any of the various oils have been more then negated by the time I've wasted reading this thread. And I've only been following it since page 175.


You didn't miss a damn thing on pages 1-174


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I asked Belray about H1R inhibiting combustion. The response -
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> belray - H1-R is not meant to conserve fuel or to be an economical oil. Its purpose is to produce the most power and protect the best. It is a high performance race oil that protects engines running at their power limits and keeps them going at all costs. In bikes, the higher usage of fuel can usually be fixed through carb or injector tuning if that’s what the user wants at a performance cost. In saws, I don’t know.
> 
> The point is that it does not inhibit combustion. It just takes more fuel to run at that level. There is more energy produced by the engine and as the law of conservation of energy tells us, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So more power equals more fuel.
> 
> ------------------------------------
> me:
> So some oils are formulated to conserve fuel or be economical? Curious how this is done...the short version please.
> ------------------------------------
> belray
> 
> We don’t concern ourselves with fuel conservation, and since we don’t do it, I don’t research it. I couldn’t tell you what goes into an energy conserving oil that makes it conserve fuel.
> -------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
> *So based on that ...the only way to be sure on any of this crap is to test em.
> 
> I think I will test
> 
> 2r - 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
> 710 - 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
> sI-7- 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
> 
> 800 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1 50:1
> H1R - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1 50:1*
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Just not liking what im seeing on R50 so I'm cutting it...
> 
> 
> From: Redbull660 [mailto: ]
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 7:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: r50
> 
> Hello, I'm wondering about using the R-50 in my chainsaw. It's a Stihl 661
> 91cc 7.5hp runs 13,500 off load WOT and say approx 9- 10,000 on load. (in wood)
> Generally the saw is idling for a little bit and then will run 10 sec-1min
> long cuts at WOT and then idling for a bit until the next cut. Idle =
> ~2800rpm.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: >
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 9:10 AM
> Subject: RE: FW: r50
> 
> Hello ,
> 
> The R50 is a great product for high rpm use, but most of your time would be at idle or at about 10,000 RPMs which would make me think that the 50:1 TechniPlate would be a better product for your application.


It inhibits combustion and that's why it uses more fuel. Did you expect Belray to tell you anything other than their product is great...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I asked Belray about H1R inhibiting combustion. The response -
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> belray - H1-R is not meant to conserve fuel or to be an economical oil. Its purpose is to produce the most power and protect the best. It is a high performance race oil that protects engines running at their power limits and keeps them going at all costs. In bikes, the higher usage of fuel can usually be fixed through carb or injector tuning if that’s what the user wants at a performance cost. In saws, I don’t know.
> 
> The point is that it does not inhibit combustion. It just takes more fuel to run at that level. There is more energy produced by the engine and as the law of conservation of energy tells us, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So more power equals more fuel.
> 
> ------------------------------------
> me:
> So some oils are formulated to conserve fuel or be economical? Curious how this is done...the short version please.
> ------------------------------------
> belray
> 
> We don’t concern ourselves with fuel conservation, and since we don’t do it, I don’t research it. I couldn’t tell you what goes into an energy conserving oil that makes it conserve fuel.
> -------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
> *So based on that ...the only way to be sure on any of this crap is to test em.
> 
> I think I will test
> 
> 2r - 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
> 710 - 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
> sI-7- 32:1 36:1 & 40:1 maybe 45:1
> 
> 800 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1 50:1
> H1R - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1 50:1*
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> Just not liking what im seeing on R50 so I'm cutting it...
> 
> 
> From: Redbull660 [mailto: ]
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 7:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: r50
> 
> Hello, I'm wondering about using the R-50 in my chainsaw. It's a Stihl 661
> 91cc 7.5hp runs 13,500 off load WOT and say approx 9- 10,000 on load. (in wood)
> Generally the saw is idling for a little bit and then will run 10 sec-1min
> long cuts at WOT and then idling for a bit until the next cut. Idle =
> ~2800rpm.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[email protected]>
> To: >
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 9:10 AM
> Subject: RE: FW: r50
> 
> Hello ,
> 
> The R50 is a great product for high rpm use, but most of your time would be at idle or at about 10,000 RPMs which would make me think that the 50:1 TechniPlate would be a better product for your application.


The same logic used to cut R50 could be applied to all these oils.....


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> It inhibits combustion and that's why it uses more fuel. Did you expect Belray to tell you anything other than their product is great...


 

it doesn't matter what you think it does or doesn't do.

We'll run all the oils and find what mix ratio each likes. maybe it'll be 2R at 32:1 vs 710 @ 36:1 vs 800 at 40:1 and so on.

then run those against each other. See what differences there are.

When that happens...then there is something to talk about.


----------



## huskihl

For shitsngrins, last night I made a few cuts with Lucas at 32:1. Mixed some up at 16:1 and tried it. No real tuning issues (1/16 turn on h and l). No smoke, or noticable difference in cut times. 
My stihl ts400 concrete saw had about 10 tanks of quicksilver full syn. 32:1 through it last week. No noticeable smell. Took the muffler off last night. Piston was wet with oil and had started washing 17 years worth of tcw3 carbon out of the exhaust port and top of piston. Muffler was brown and dry. Seems like good stuff


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> it doesn't matter what you think it does or doesn't do.
> 
> We'll run all the oils and find what mix ratio each likes. maybe it'll be 2R at 32:1 vs 710 @ 36:1 vs 800 at 40:1 and so on.
> 
> then run those against each other. See what differences there are.
> 
> When that happens...then there is something to talk about.


Have fun wasting your time.


----------



## A100HVA

RedFir Down said:


> Here is an interesting read about H1R. Starts on page 2. http://www.wdarc.org/articles_files/2 stroke Oil Test.pdf
> 
> I googled "does belray h1r affect combustion". It was the second link from the top. Im sure there is more out there also.


 
thanks for posting the link red fir!!!
by far the best oil type test results i've seen. i'm sure glad to see 100cc airplane engines in it. good start at compare'in plane motors to chainsaw motors.

however,in my case of selling husqvarna chainsaws for over 39+ years,i have a weekly discussion with angry customers about oil & today's gas , and even the oil HVA makes me sell.(if they mix it right & use premium gas) i'd love to know the engine temp of all the seized up CHAINSAW engines , that i have worked on. and i will forget the ones that had burned up guide bars with dull chains on them,as all of us good chainsaw nuts (mechanics) all ready know most of the time what "did'er-in"....


----------



## bwalker

A100HVA said:


> thanks for posting the link red fir!!!
> by far the best oil type test results i've seen. i'm sure glad to see 100cc airplane engines in it. good start at compare'in plane motors to chainsaw motors.
> 
> however,in my case of selling husqvarna chainsaws for over 39+ years,i have a weekly discussion with angry customers about oil & today's gas , and even the oil HVA makes me sell.(if they mix it right & use premium gas) i'd love to know the engine temp of all the seized up CHAINSAW engines , that i have worked on. and i will forget the ones that had burned up guide bars with dull chains on them,as all of us good chainsaw nuts (mechanics) all ready know most of the time what "did'er-in"....


Makes me wonder what test you guys are looking at..


----------



## RedFir Down

Redbull, did you read the material about the H1R in the link I post yesterday?
If so does that help explain how H1R affects combustion?


----------



## redbull660

RedFir Down said:


> Redbull, did you read the material about the H1R in the link I post yesterday?
> If so does that help explain how H1R affects combustion?



I just don't think all oil is formulated equally. There is no golden ratio to go by. Each oil and engine and application requires a different ratio. That is where I stand at the present time. And honestly that doesn't matter until I do my test.

Regarding this test/article - I would simply say the guy should of tried several ratios. Just because the bottle says whatever doesn't mean that is what is correct for his engine or application.

it comes down to...
1. if there is more oil in the bottle and it's being run to rich. I personally think you could cause these problems with any 2t oil if you run it rich enough.
2. if it doesn't combust properly...inhibits combustion.

those seem to be the two camps of thought on H1R.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I just don't think all oil is formulated equally. There is no golden ratio to go by. Each oil and engine and application requires a different ratio. That is where I stand at the present time. And honestly that doesn't matter until I do my test.
> 
> Regarding this test - I would simply say the guy should of tried several ratios. Just because the bottle says whatever doesn't mean that is what is correct for his engine or application.


The application and load set the ratio not the other way around. And oil that won't combust well at 32:1 isnt worth a chit. ESPECIALLY one like H1R which is formulated for mx bikes which are speced with a 32:1 ratio from the factory.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> The application and load set the ratio not the other way around. And oil that won't combust well at 32:1 isnt worth a chit. ESPECIALLY one like H1R which is formulated for mx bikes which are speced with a 32:1 ratio from the factory.




there ya go again. 2t Oil is 2t oil. it's all the same stuff.


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> there ya go again. 2t Oil is 2t oil. it's all the same stuff.


Clearly it's not. Some oils really suck..like H1R.


----------



## redbull660

I think I've had enough of your BS.


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> I think I've had enough of your BS.


Feelings mutual...and about 100 pages back.


----------



## redbull660

you seem to know a few things. but we have accomplished basically nothing in 4000 posts. How constructive


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't even care about any of the test results, this is just entertaining to read after a long day at work.....using my thin crappy solvent filled oil


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> you seem to know a few things. but we have accomplished basically nothing in 4000 posts. How constructive


The next 4000 aren't looking much better[emoji6]


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> you seem to know a few things. but we have accomplished basically nothing in 4000 posts. How constructive


You are not capable of learning, I am convinced. The evidence is there...


----------



## CR500

technically we are not at 4k yet.


I think at 4k any of these oils we produce carbon haha


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't even care about any of the test results, this is just entertaining to read after a long day at work.....using my thin crappy solvent filled oil




I didn't say it was thin. 

I didn't say it was crappy

I just said and have been saying - you need more of it to get the same effect of H1R.


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> I didn't say it was thin.
> 
> I didn't say it was crappy
> 
> I just said and have been saying - you need more of it to get the same effect of H1R.


You really think 32:1 vs. 35.5:1 in the case of 2R explains the differance? How about we also subtract the additive content because "its not pure oil"? Your insistence on adhering to this train of thought is further evidence of your lack of critical thinking and lack of knowledge.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> it doesn't matter what you think it does or doesn't do.
> 
> We'll run all the oils and find what mix ratio each likes. maybe it'll be 2R at 32:1 vs 710 @ 36:1 vs 800 at 40:1 and so on.
> 
> then run those against each other. See what differences there are.
> 
> When that happens...then there is something to talk about.


Woohoo. A LOT less talk, and a LOT more action Do these tests and you'll have some actual data with which to draw some conclusions.


----------



## redbull660

got a response back from Motul.... you guys are going to lose yer chit over this one. see bold



Hello, I'm wondering about using the 710 or 800 off road 2t oils in my chainsaw. It's a Stihl 661 91cc 7.5hp runs 13,500 off load WOT and approx 10,000 on load. (in wood) Generally the saw is idling for a little bit and then will run 10 sec-1min long cuts at WOT and then idling for a bit until the next cut. Idle = ~2800rpm.

1. would you recommend 710 or 800 or another motul 2t oil for this application? If so would you suggest a ratio to use?

2. Is there a temp that would be too cold to use my saw at...using 710 or 800? I mix with 92 octane ethanol free

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,


----- Original Message -----
*From:* Muto, Jon
*To:*  
*Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2015 6:34 PM
*Subject:* 800 off road & 710

Hi ,

The product I would recommend for your chain saw is our 800 2T off-road. Although as I am sure you are aware 800 2T was not designed for use in chain saws, but it does work very well. The EsterCore package in the 800 2T offers maximum protection for your engine, especially at high RPM's.

*The ratio I would recommend would be a 50:1 ratio. If that ratio is a little too rich you can go to a 60:1 ratio. Since it is a Premix only product you can run the ratios a little leaner then an Injector/Premix product like the 710 2T.*

As for a temp that would be too cold to use your saw at we do not have an exact degree number. I do know that we have a lot of customers in Canada and other colder regions that use the 800 2T in their chainsaws and snowmobiles without issue. We just recommend that if it is cold outside that you properly warm up your engine before use.

Regards,

Jon Muto
Marketing Coordinator
Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767

*T* 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | *F* 909-625-2697 | *Cell *909-538-2091

*[email protected]*|www.motul.com








Click here to visit our website...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> You really think 32:1 vs. 35.5:1 in the case of 2R explains the differance? How about we also subtract the additive content because "its not pure oil"? Your insistence on adhering to this train of thought is further evidence of your lack of critical thinking and lack of knowledge.




361 test with H1R
50:1 was so so
45:1 was perfect
40:1 was so so

tune didn't change much from 50 down to 40:1

32:1 ...everything with to sh*t. tune required a lot of turning. So yeah I think there may be a tipping point. 

Critical thinking...oh like your analytical skills are just AWESOME!

ps. why do you have to be such a prick about everything.


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> got a response back from Motul.... you guys are going to lose yer chit over this one. see bold
> 
> 
> 
> Hello, I'm wondering about using the 710 or 800 off road 2t oils in my chainsaw. It's a Stihl 661 91cc 7.5hp runs 13,500 off load WOT and approx 10,000 on load. (in wood) Generally the saw is idling for a little bit and then will run 10 sec-1min long cuts at WOT and then idling for a bit until the next cut. Idle = ~2800rpm.
> 
> 1. would you recommend 710 or 800 or another motul 2t oil for this application? If so would you suggest a ratio to use?
> 
> 2. Is there a temp that would be too cold to use my saw at...using 710 or 800? I mix with 92 octane ethanol free
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Muto, Jon
> *To:*
> *Sent:* Monday, May 11, 2015 6:34 PM
> *Subject:* 800 off road & 710
> 
> Hi ,
> 
> The product I would recommend for your chain saw is our 800 2T off-road. Although as I am sure you are aware 800 2T was not designed for use in chain saws, but it does work very well. The EsterCore package in the 800 2T offers maximum protection for your engine, especially at high RPM's.
> 
> *The ratio I would recommend would be a 50:1 ratio. If that ratio is a little too rich you can go to a 60:1 ratio. Since it is a Premix only product you can run the ratios a little leaner then an Injector/Premix product like the 710 2T.*
> 
> As for a temp that would be too cold to use your saw at we do not have an exact degree number. I do know that we have a lot of customers in Canada and other colder regions that use the 800 2T in their chainsaws and snowmobiles without issue. We just recommend that if it is cold outside that you properly warm up your engine before use.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jon Muto
> Marketing Coordinator
> Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767
> 
> *T* 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | *F* 909-625-2697 | *Cell *909-538-2091
> 
> *[email protected]*|www.motul.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click here to visit our website...


Who is advocating the use of injector oils? NOT ME! It also doesn't supprise a Marketing Coordinator would reccomend those ratios..


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Who is advocating the use of injector oils? NOT ME! It also doesn't supprise a Marketing Coordinator would reccomend those ratios..



oh no you don't...

Motul he says..."*Since it (referring to 800 off road) is a Premix only product you can run the ratios a little leaner then an Injector/Premix product like the 710 2T.*"

then an inejector/premix product like 710 2t - INJECTOR/PREMIX notice how he used them together. He didn't say INJECTOR he used them together.


----------



## redbull660

Motul says 50:1 or maybe 60:1 LOL 

what does Bwalker say? it' can be run 16:1. 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> oh no you don't...
> 
> Motul he says..."*Since it (referring to 800 off road) is a Premix only product you can run the ratios a little leaner then an Injector/Premix product like the 710 2T.*"
> 
> then an inejector/premix product like 710 2t - INJECTOR/PREMIX notice how he used them together. He didn't say INJECTOR he used them together.


I specifically said I have no interest in injector oils. I bought some 710 recently, but gave it away because of this.
I specifically do not reccomend the use of injector or dual purpose oils.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Motul says 50:1 or maybe 60:1 LOL
> 
> what does Bwalker say? it' can be run 16:1.
> 
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!


800t is ran down to 16:1 in shifters..I've seen it with my own eyes. BECAUSE IT'S A DECENT OIL UNLIKE H1R IT WORKS FINE AT 16:1.


----------



## redbull660

oh and the chemical and physical make up of 710 and 2r are sooo different. whatever buddy.


----------



## redbull660

chainsaws man chainsaws. i don't give 2 bits about a kart.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> oh and the chemical and physical make up of 710 and 2r are sooo different. whatever buddy.


You don't know squat about the chemical make up of either...
And they are night and day different.


----------



## Effs

redbull660 said:


> Motul says 50:1 or maybe 60:1 LOL
> 
> what does Bwalker say? it' can be run 16:1.
> 
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!


Walker does not know what to say! But he will same something!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> chainsaws man chainsaws. i don't give 2 bits about a kart.


I didn't advocate running it at 16:1 in a saw.. In fact I don't think it's a great choice for a saw application and said so from the start. I also said it's a decent oil for specific uses and it is.


----------



## redbull660

that's insult me. No proof. Just insult me! come on give me another! Problem is you don't know as much as you let on.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I didn't advocate running it at 16:1 in a saw.. In fact I don't think it's a great choice for a saw application and said so from the start. I also said it's a decent oil for specific uses and it is.



the hell you didn't!


----------



## redbull660

when in doubt, insult, or call it garbage, or make something up! i mean don't try to be nice or constructive. ...just my way or the highway! bwalker.


----------



## Effs

redbull660 said:


> that's insult me. No proof. Just insult me! come on give me another! Problem is you don't know as much as you let on.


Agreed!


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> the hell you didn't!


I never said to run a saw at 16:1, dumbazz What I did say is good oils will run good down to 16:1 in applications those ratios are appropriate for. UNLIKE H1R which can't manage to run good at 32:1.


----------



## nitehawk55

TV script for the odd couple .

Carry on.........


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I never said to run a saw at 16:1, dumbazz What I did say is good oils will run good down to 16:1 in applications those ratios are appropriate for. UNLIKE H1R which can't manage to run good at 32:1.



BULLSH*T


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> BULLSH*T


You serious? That was for your BS test. And sure run them at that ratio. Your saw will be lucky to start with H1R..


----------



## redbull660

whatever dude. 

h1r - umm yeah and 800. now your yamadope has enough solvents and is thin enough you could probably burn it as fuel oil. lol


----------



## blsnelling

All this talk is pointless. Lock this thread until some tests have been done.


----------



## bwalker

redcull660 said:


> whatever dude.
> 
> h1r - umm yeah and 800. now your yamadope has enough solvents and is thin enough you could probably burn it as fuel oil. lol


Don't lump that crap you run in with 800...


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> I never said to run a saw at 16:1, dumbazz What I did say is good oils will run good down to 16:1 in applications those ratios are appropriate for. UNLIKE H1R which can't manage to run good at 32:1.


Also BS


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> Also BS


And we have cull #2..


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> I never said to run a saw at 16:1, dumbazz What I did say is good oils will run good down to 16:1 in applications those ratios are appropriate for. UNLIKE H1R which can't manage to run good at 32:1.


What would you Run 800 at? at 32:1 it was slick and and was fantastic in the saws.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Im sellin all my saws..this is too much information for a fella like me.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I should buy that T536ti XP in the trader and forget oil all together


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> What would you Run 800 at? at 32:1 it was slick and and was fantastic in the saws.


I'd start their for a saw.


----------



## big t double

Bwalker and redbull sittin in a tree, K.I.S.S.I.N.G.....


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Since chainsaws have become tools to me and i dont understand any of this can someone fill this out for me

I have some stock and ported saws and im damn sure not mixing different cans..so the happy medium would be what for the following oils ?

R50 _:1 ?
Yamalube _:1 ?
Lucas _:1 ?
Motul _:1 ?
Gary goo _:1 ?
Stihl synthetic _:1 ?

Thanks.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> Bwalker and redbull sittin in a tree, K.I.S.S.I.N.G.....



You like men.

Go sharpen chains.

Or fill out my oil request.


----------



## KenJax Tree

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Since chainsaws have become tools to me and i dont understand any of this can someone fill this out for me
> 
> I have some stock and ported saws and im damn sure not mixing different cans..so the happy medium would be what for the following oils ?
> 
> R50 _:1 ?
> Yamalube 40:1 ?
> Lucas 40:1 ?
> Motul _:1 ?
> Gary goo _:1 ?
> Stihl synthetic _:1 ?
> 
> Thanks.


Who cares about the rest


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Ted's goo. whatever comes out after three or four good yanks :1


There try that. And I sharpen chains on Thursdays...keep up. Genital wart.


----------



## mdavlee

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Since chainsaws have become tools to me and i dont understand any of this can someone fill this out for me
> 
> I have some stock and ported saws and im damn sure not mixing different cans..so the happy medium would be what for the following oils ?
> 
> R50 _:1 ?
> Yamalube _:1 ?
> Lucas _:1 ?
> Motul _:1 ?
> Gary goo _:1 ?
> Stihl synthetic _:1 ?
> 
> Thanks.


32-40:1 for all. They're all good enough for a saw.


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> The next 4000 aren't looking much better[emoji6]



I'll read email though


----------



## brockhaskins

*em


----------



## CR500

4 ounces to a gallon has made me have better sleep lol 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

blsnelling said:


> All this talk is pointless. Lock this thread until some tests have been done.




Brad if its locked we won't have our own A.S. soap opera.


----------



## blsnelling

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Brad if its locked we won't have our own A.S. soap opera.


It has been rather entertaining! This is the most activity AS has seen in ages.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> All this talk is pointless. Lock this thread until some tests have been done.



ok...


----------



## stihlboy

This?


----------



## Raganr

Good call bringing it back redbull. I enjoy your threads.


----------



## nk14zp

Raganr said:


> Good call bringing it back redbull. I enjoy your threads.


He didn't.


----------



## stihlboy

I didn't either


----------



## redbull660

I feel sorry for anyone who tries to read through this thread in an attempt to learn something. Up to this point we've got a lot of ms-information. 

Hopefully when the tests get done we'll be able to conclude something.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Not sure what they're gonna learn....like i said, average joe is gonna run dino oil at 50:1 like the manual says, and 99.9% of AS aren't even using any of the oils listed here and don't care about splitting hairs with oil ratios.


----------



## blsnelling

If this thread is full of misinformation, why did you post it in the first place? Are you agreeing that much more testing must be done in order to draw any conclusions? If so, then I'm behind you.


----------



## svk

Hi guys. Things got a little wild in here before this thread was temporarily closed down. Disagreement is fine but personal attacks won't be tolerated. The powers that be have decided that this thread is going to stay up so if you don't play nice you can take a trip to camp. Thanks in advance.


----------



## svk

blsnelling said:


> It has been rather entertaining! This is the most activity AS has seen in ages.


I'd have to say this has to be the quickest thread to reach 100+ pages in my tenure on any forum.


----------



## blsnelling

svk said:


> I'd have to say this has to be the quickest thread to reach 100+ pages in my tenure on any forum.


Pfff! We're at 200!


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> If this thread is full of misinformation, why did you post it in the first place? Are you agreeing that much more testing must be done in order to draw any conclusions? If so, then I'm behind you.




sorry man. don't understand the logic of your question...

if I could tell the future, no I wouldn't have started the thread in the "first place". Since I don't know the future, I started the thread under the premise of doing some tests that would be beneficial to AS community and having some constructive interaction.

"are you agreeing that much more testing..." yeah I pretty much said exactly that in the above post before yours.


----------



## Big_Wood

i am mostly sick of oil threads in general but decided maybe i should peek into this. wish i hadn't. were talking like 3-7% of total volume here guys. go have a beer and chill the **** out LOL forest workers here have no choice what they run. the company buys the cheapest **** fuel and cheapest **** oil to mix it with at 50:1. it takes them 2 years to kill a saw. even the ported 372/390's that everyone says the bearings go in. only 1-2% of AS are capable of killing a saw without it suffering a lean or straight gas death. there is a drama queen in this thread and it ain't redbull660! LOL


----------



## svk

westcoaster90 said:


> only 1-2% of AS are capable of killing a saw without it suffering a lean or straight gas death.



Anyone is capable of killing a saw in an afternoon if you run the pee out of it with a dull chain


----------



## Big_Wood

svk said:


> Anyone is capable of killing a saw in an afternoon if you run the pee out of it with a dull chain



what i meant was only 1-2% is capable of killing a saw from real use day in day out cause no one uses their saw enough. i'm sure the majority here could kill a saw like you said and i'm sure a large number of them have. LOL either way, if a faller can get 2 years out of a saw running potentially the highest ethanol content available with the cheapest generic oil available on the shelf then nobody here as anything to worry about. go cut wood people


----------



## svk

westcoaster90 said:


> what i meant was only 1-2% is capable of killing a saw from real use day in day out cause no one uses their saw enough. i'm sure the majority here could kill a saw like you said and i'm sure a large number of them have. LOL


I heard that those big huskys only lasted 40 hours out in the great west. Or maybe someone was just talkin a little smack on the internet


----------



## Trx250r180

svk said:


> I heard that those big huskys only lasted 40 hours out in the great west. Or maybe someone was just talkin a little smack on the internet


I heard the same thing ,but it can't be true


----------



## Big_Wood

svk said:


> I heard that those big huskys only lasted 40 hours out in the great west. Or maybe someone was just talkin a little smack on the internet



so we agree LOL my buddy vern has a 385 from 2005 that is a spare now but it's first 2 years were regular service on **** company mix. the thing still runs great. of course, you can really feel it is weak compared to a new one but it does still run nonetheless. the right tune is the biggest thing. alot of BS here on AS. overrating and completely false statements in general. the real world is where it's at.


----------



## Time's Standing Stihl

Crazy is my middle name


----------



## nk14zp

svk said:


> Anyone is capable of killing a saw in an afternoon if you run the pee out of it with a dull chain


That's why you want an eXtra pee and a sharp chain.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> If this thread is full of misinformation, why did you post it in the first place? Are you agreeing that much more testing must be done in order to draw any conclusions? If so, then I'm behind you.


The misinformation us coming from one direction...


----------



## bwalker

svk said:


> Anyone is capable of killing a saw in an afternoon if you run the pee out of it with a dull chain


I'd wager most saws are run with a dull chain and they last just fine.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> The misinformation us coming from one direction...



maybe the misinformation is coming from one direction which i do not know nor care but one thing for certain is, the drama is coming from one direction and i think everyone can see what direction that is.


----------



## svk

bwalker said:


> I'd wager most saws are run with a dull chain and they last just fine.


Not really.


----------



## bwalker

svk said:


> Not really.


Check out the saws on the repair bench at a dealer that caters to homeowners. Most of them have the paint burnt off on the bottom side.


----------



## svk

bwalker said:


> Check out the saws on the repair bench at a dealer that caters to homeowners. Most of them have the paint burnt off on the bottom side.


I don't disagree. Most ho's run out of wood before they work a saw to the breaking point. But not impossible.


----------



## Trx250r180

That cutting with a dull chain till the paint burns off the bar is just wrong .


----------



## KenJax Tree

I cut until the paint burns off one side then flip the bar until it burns off that side then i sharpen the chain and repeat.


----------



## Whitespider

Well... I for one ain't learned a damn thing from this thread... except that some people believe some pretty wild stuff about two-stroke oil, and will fault anyone with results contrary to their beliefs.
Just too many absolutes being thrown out...

For example "More Oil = More Power"... well then, why stop at 32:1, or 24:1, or even 8:1?? Heck, if more oil = more power why not mix it 1:1?? Oh, I see, _too much_ oil = less power. So if you're running 8:1 than less oil = more power. But... but... but... I thought more oil = more power. So more oil doesn't always = more power, sometimes less oil = more power... unless it's not enough oil than more oil = more power. See what I mean... I already knew that too much oil, or too little oil, was detrimental to performance... so I didn't learn sour owl squat.

Along that line... there ain't no friggin' way anyone can claim a 32:1 (or whatever) mix of any particular oil is "best" for every engine, every saw, in all conditions... it might be perfect for yours, it might be horrible in mine. Too many variables, it depends, there ain't no absolutes... there ain't no magic...

Personally I don't care to use any two-stroke oil with directions on the label for multiple mix ratios... in my experience a jack of all trades is a master of none.
I mean, c'mon, talk about a CYA lack of commitment... if you can't commit and stand behind your product, than I ain't gonna' lay out my cash for it (shrug)
But that's just me... I ain't suggesting anyone should do as I do.

The truth is, after reading all of this, I've concluded the smartest thing I can do is to just continue doing what I've been doing... that is pouring the same 50:1 (dino) mix in all the two-stroke ***, even the old 1970s vintage stuff that originally ran on 16:1. As the mix oil has evolved over the years from 16:1, to 24:1, to 32;1, to 40:1, and now 50:1, I've experienced fewer and fewer starting/running problems, never foul a plug anymore, and rarely have to adjust carbs... even in the really old stuff (oh... and I've never seized one neither). That's worth a whole lot more to me than any ½% increase in power, or a ½% decrease in fuel consumption, or whatever else the claims are... I just want 'em to start and run when I need 'em... there was a day when ya' couldn't count on that.
*


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> I cut until the paint burns off one side then flip the bar until it burns off that side then i sharpen the chain and repeat.


you need a kick in the azz


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Well... I for one ain't learned a damn thing from this thread... except that some people believe some pretty wild stuff about two-stroke oil, and will fault anyone with results contrary to their beliefs.
> Just too many absolutes being thrown out...
> 
> For example "More Oil = More Power"... well then, why stop at 32:1, or 24:1, or even 8:1?? Heck, if more oil = more power why not mix it 1:1?? Oh, I see, _too much_ oil = less power. So if you're running 8:1 than less oil = more power. But... but... but... I thought more oil = more power. So more oil doesn't always = more power, sometimes less oil = more power... unless it's not enough oil than more oil = more power. See what I mean... I already knew that too much oil, or too little oil, was detrimental to performance... so I didn't learn sour owl squat.
> 
> Along that line... there ain't no friggin' way anyone can claim a 32:1 (or whatever) mix of any particular oil is "best" for every engine, every saw, in all conditions... it might be perfect for yours, it might be horrible in mine. Too many variables, it depends, there ain't no absolutes... there ain't no magic...
> 
> Personally I don't care to use any two-stroke oil with directions on the label for multiple mix ratios... in my experience a jack of all trades is a master of none.
> I mean, c'mon, talk about a CYA lack of commitment... if you can't commit and stand behind your product, than I ain't gonna' lay out my cash for it (shrug)
> But that's just me... I ain't suggesting anyone should do as I do.
> 
> The truth is, after reading all of this, I've concluded the smartest thing I can do is to just continue doing what I've been doing... that is pouring the same 50:1 (dino) mix in all the two-stroke ***, even the old 1970s vintage stuff that originally ran on 16:1. As the mix oil has evolved over the years from 16:1, to 24:1, to 32;1, to 40:1, and now 50:1, I've experienced fewer and fewer starting/running problems, never foul a plug anymore, and rarely have to adjust carbs... even in the really old stuff (oh... and I've never seized one neither). That's worth a whole lot more to me than any ½% increase in power, or a ½% decrease in fuel consumption, or whatever else the claims are... I just want 'em to start and run when I need 'em... there was a day when ya' couldn't count on that.
> *


More oil does equal more power down to something below 16:1 as documented by Gordon Jennings, Mercury Marine and others.
With that said information like the above is only good if one can critically think and apply it. As far as I know, no one advocated running a saw at 16:1 for normal use.
Load and oil migration times dictate how much oil you need to use. If you want to use an arbitrary number for a mix ratio have at it.


----------



## windthrown

I am changing over to a new bar oil now. Ape Oil. Its rendered from crushed & fermented brush ape. And since no one wants anything to do with it, it is also really cheap. Slick as snot, but sticks to a bar like glue.


----------



## Trx250r180

windthrown said:


> I am changing over to a new bar oil now. Ape Oil. Its rendered from crushed & fermented brush ape. And since no one wants anything to do with it, it is also really cheap. Slick as snot, but sticks to a bar like glue.


How does it work with .404 chain ?


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *More oil does equal more power down to something below 16:1 as documented by Gordon Jennings, Mercury Marine and others.*


 And people say I live in the past 
Gordon Jennings' Two-stroke Tuner's Handbook is 42 years old‼ The two-stroke Lawn-Boy mower was high-tech when Jennings wrote it‼ That's not to say all of the information in it no longer applies, but anything to do with oil is way outdated and at the very best, questionable if not flat obsolete. You're gonna' haf'ta come up with something a bit more current than something published in 1973 if'n ya' want me to take it seriously when talkin' 'bout the oil we use today. Heck man, the oil he was using ain't even been available for near 3 decades‼  
(By-the-way, I have a copy of his handbook.)

I'll flat-out tell ya'... when Stihl changed their oil from 40:1 to 50:1 (what?? mid or late 90s??) my *** showed a noticeable performance improvement, and that there is a fact (with my ***). You're the one that's mentioned "track record" in this thread several times... right?? Well, the "track record" I've personally experienced means a whole lot more to me than any other you can quote... period.
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> And people say I live in the past
> Gordon Jennings' Two-stroke Tuner's Handbook is 42 years old‼ The two-stroke Lawn-Boy mower was high-tech when Jennings wrote it‼ That's not to say all of the information in it no longer applies, but anything to do with oil is way outdated and at the very best, questionable if not flat obsolete. You're gonna' haf'ta come up with something a bit more current than something published in 1973 if'n ya' want me to take it seriously when talkin' 'bout the oil we use today. Heck man, the oil he was using ain't even been available for near 3 decades‼
> (By-the-way, I have a copy of his handbook.)
> 
> I'll flat-out tell ya'... when Stihl changed their oil from 40:1 to 50:1 (what?? mid or late 90s??) my *** showed a noticeable performance improvement, and that there is a fact (with my ***). You're the one that's mentioned "track record" in this thread several times... right?? Well, the "track record" I've personally experienced means a whole lot more to me than any other you can quote... period.
> *


Your guessing it's outdated and not applicable . I know of a guy who repeated the test with marine engines in the 90's and came to the same conslusions.


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *I cut until the paint burns off one side then flip the bar until it burns off that side then i sharpen the chain and repeat.*


That ain't nothin'‼
I just picked up (another) bar for dads saw... he don't sharpen the chains himself, he brings 'em to me.
He'll keep grinding away until hunks of steel get ripped from the bar rails... and I ain't making that up‼
*


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Your guessing it's outdated. I know of a guy who repeated the test with Marine engines in then 90's and came to the same conslusions.*


The 90s happened over a decade ago... but you're getting closer.
So you know a guy (one guy??) who repeated the test with _marine engines_ in the 90s (early or late? early would make it over 2 decades ago)... and because you know a guy from the 90s it applies to two-stroke oil, in chainsaws, in 2015?? But... but... the 2015 test from the OP of this thread means nothing??

Whatever...
*


----------



## windthrown

Trx250r180 said:


> How does it work with .404 chain ?



I dunno. I only run 3/8 chain (std. and Picco). I also put .404 (and all other psychotropic BAs) in my iggy list here with WS.

Now there is a thought. Put WS and BA into a cage and see who comes out alive?


----------



## svk

Oh boy....AS celebrity cage matches lol


----------



## windthrown

svk said:


> Oh boy....AS celebrity cage matches lol


----------



## KenJax Tree

Remember celebrity death match on MTV?


----------



## svk

KenJax Tree said:


> Remember celebrity death match on MTV?


Hanson vs Spice Girls....Britney vs Christina LOL


----------



## KenJax Tree

Madonna vs Michael Jackson was a good one


----------



## Big_Wood

good ol, spidey. i always hear people say he's a pain in the ass but he's ok in my books.


----------



## windthrown

Currently scheduled AS celeb cage fights:

WS vs BA (with long and deep, often times conflicting and confusing essays)
Fish vs MfromM (one liners only)


----------



## svk

WS has 8 arms/legs. Perhaps allow BA to bring a couple of his aliases with to make it a more fair fight?


----------



## KenJax Tree

But aren't apes something like 10x stronger than man?


----------



## windthrown

Yah, you can smell then 10 blocks away.


----------



## svk

KenJax Tree said:


> But aren't apes something like 10x stronger than man?


Yes but so are arachnids


----------



## svk

Lets try to get this thread back on topic.


----------



## blsnelling

svk said:


> Lets try to get this thread back on topic.


What was the topic? I forgot about 180 pages ago


----------



## windthrown

Topic?

Oil of Oooooohhh La La!


----------



## OnTheRoad

So this thread is back?


----------



## Whitespider

windthrown said:


> *Put WS and BA into a cage and see who comes out alive?*


Some people have no smarts at all... 

If'n ya' put Brush Ape and I in a cage, it wouldn't be a question of which one of us came out alive... it would be a question of how long our captors could remain alive after we figured out how to escape. Only a complete utter fool would give the two of us a common cause to work towards.

But, hey... what can you expect from a guy who talks about, even brags about, the people he has on his ignore list??
I mean, c'mon... seriously??  It's a friggin' _ignore_ list‼
Ya' know?? Ignore... as in... refuse to acknowledge or to totally disregard.
*


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *Remember celebrity death match on MTV?*


Unfortunately (b'cause I like a good laugh), I've never watched MTV so I'm unable to laugh along with you guys on this one... I have no mental picture to reference.
I tried Google for celebrity death match... but somethin' evidently gets lost in transcription/description.
Must be one of those "ya'-had-to-be-there" things... huh??
*


----------



## Deets066

windthrown said:


> Topic?
> 
> Oil of Oooooohhh La La!
> View attachment 424745


I bet that's the same bikini she had when she was 8


----------



## .404

This is ridiculous. You should delete this whole thread except for the pictures of young women in compromising positions wearing less than a handkerchief....


----------



## redbull660

.404 said:


> This is ridiculous. You should delete this whole thread except for the pictures of young women in compromising positions wearing less than a handkerchief....



I agree, on the condition that they are lubed up with various oils. Only then could we actually determine which oil was best!


----------



## the GOAT

windthrown said:


> Currently scheduled AS celeb cage fights:
> 
> WS vs BA (with long and deep, often times conflicting and confusing essays)
> Fish vs MfromM (one liners only)



You going to get me/us off the ban'd list?


----------



## CR500

Come on 4k!!!!

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## redbull660

bought some Lucas semi syn the other day. Decided to do a little mini test to get a feel on how to proceed with future tests. Please read whole post before commenting.

New 24" .404 RS chains for each. Reset performed for each.

Time wise they are all pretty close with a slight advantage to h1r and lucas 36:1. I let the saws run for a while on video to see if you guys could discern anything from the noise

H1R 45:1




Lucas 32:1 To me it didn't feel as responsive or crisp as the h1r. Kinda boggy actually.



Lucas 36:1 more responsive can crisp than the 32:1 lucas...actually pretty nice. But not quite as nice as h1r. *So I was going to try 40:1 lucas*....







Figured if 36:1 was nicer than 32:1 lucas, then I'd try 40:1 lucas... Until I took the muffler off. The film of oil on the piston blows at least compared to H1R.

To confirm the oil film - I went back to cutting. Burned up 4 tanks of 32:1 lucas. Still not as responsive or crisp as 36:1 lucas and 45:1 h1r. Pulled muffler - the film on piston is not impressive at all. Even at the richer ratio. Doesn't feel like slimy oil. Almost like a dry lube film....smooth sorta wet but not oily. I'm sure you could adjust for this if it wasn't an mtronic. And thinking back the film of Stihl Ultra was more impressive than the Lucas.

Given the times I was kinda hopeful about the lucas until I saw the film on the piston. I even put the muffler back on and let the saw idle for a while, then checked film again. Same thing.


This is not to say H1R is a winner in all of this either. They weren't that much faster than Lucas. Considering it's a racing oil. Although the gas was different with the H1R than the Lucas. H1R gas is left over from the Iowa GTG purchased in IA. The lucas was purchased yesterday 92 oct. But still I doubt that would make that big of a difference.

For me H1R is still on the table given the film strength I've observed so far... we'll see if others are better. But I'd like to see faster times then others!

Lucas is off though.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> bought some Lucas semi syn the other day. Decided to do a little mini test to get a feel on how to proceed with future tests. Please read whole post before commenting.
> 
> New 24" .404 RS chains for each. Reset performed for each.
> 
> Time wise they are all pretty close with a slight advantage to h1r and lucas 36:1. I let the saws run for a while on video to see if you guys could discern anything from the noise
> 
> H1R 45:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lucas 32:1 To me it didn't feel as responsive or crisp as the h1r. Kinda boggy actually.
> 
> 
> 
> Lucas 36:1 more responsive can crisp than the 32:1 lucas...actually pretty nice. But not quite as nice as h1r. *So I was going to try 40:1 lucas*....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figured if 36:1 was nicer than 32:1 lucas, then I'd try 40:1 lucas... Until I took the muffler off. The film of oil on the piston blows at least compared to H1R.
> 
> To confirm the oil film - I went back to cutting. Burned up 4 tanks of 32:1 lucas. Still not as responsive or crisp as 36:1 lucas and 45:1 h1r. Pulled muffler - the film on piston is not impressive at all. Even at the richer ratio. Doesn't feel like slimy oil. Almost like a dry lube film....smooth sorta wet but not oily. I'm sure you could adjust for this if it wasn't an mtronic. And thinking back the film of Stihl Ultra was more impressive than the Lucas.
> 
> Given the times I was kinda hopeful about the lucas until I saw the film on the piston. I even put the muffler back on and let the saw idle for a while, then checked film again. Same thing.
> 
> 
> This is not to say H1R is a winner in all of this either. They weren't that much faster than Lucas. Considering it's a racing oil. Although the gas was different with the H1R than the Lucas. H1R gas is left over from the Iowa GTG purchased in IA. The lucas was purchased yesterday 92 oct. But still I doubt that would make that big of a difference.
> 
> For me H1R is still on the table given the film strength I've observed so far... we'll see if others are better. But I'd like to see faster times then others!
> 
> Lucas is off though.



That makes sense, with the much higher film strength of the ester oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I believe the ester will leave a better coating, but i'm calling BS on looking like dry lube film. You're seeing what you want to see.


----------



## cuttinties

blsnelling said:


> That makes sense, with the much higher film strength of the ester oil.


I will add that his findings aren't even remotely close to what I've seen. I burn anywhere in the neighborhood of 1.5-2.5 gallons a day. I've got countless hours using Lucas and have used it in a very wide variety of saws. I don't feel that his description falls in line with mine. Mind you that what he feels is a good film may not be in fact what I call a good film. I've never had any problems with throttle response, and quite honestly can tell no real concernable difference between 32:1 and 40:1. Remember that more often than not 90% of the users here often have saws sitting for a period of time. 


Redbull do an evaporation test. Then you'll see what I'm getting at.


----------



## redbull660

took some pics as well 

lucas 32:1 after 4 tanks in 661 - ran a tank on 20" a tank on 24" and 2 tanks on 30" bar.


----------



## Trx250r180

Everyone remember these tests are on " His " 661 with autotune ,and a reg carb saw may net different results


----------



## cuttinties

Trx250r180 said:


> Everyone remember these tests are on " His " 661 with autotune ,and a reg carb saw may net different results


I've used 32:1 in AT/m-tronic saws with zero affect on the throttle response.


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *Madonna vs Michael Jackson was a good one*


OK... so we're on the road back over to western Iowa and I'm surfin' the web, lookin' for Celebrity Deathmatch.
I find a YouTube of Madonna vs Michael Jackson... guess I just ain't hip enough... couldn't see the comedy in it.
Now, my brother (the boss), is laughin' so hard there's tears in his eyes... so I ask him what's so funny, and it goes like this...

"Do you know who Michael Jackson was?"
-Yes
"Can you name one of his record albums?"
-No
"Can you name one of his songs?"
-No
"Did you ever watched him perform?"
-No
"Do you know who Madonna is?"
-I've heard the name
(he's laughing again) "That's why it ain't funny to ya'."

Like I said, guess I ain't hip enough... so the joke's on me this time (shrug)... I can handle it...
*


----------



## Trx250r180

Whitespider said:


> OK... so we're on the road back over to western Iowa and I'm surfin' the web, lookin' for Celebrity Deathmatch.
> I find a YouTube of Madonna vs Michael Jackson... guess I just ain't hip enough... couldn't see the comedy in it.
> Now, my brother (the boss), is laughin' so hard there's tears in his eyes... so I ask him what's so funny, and it goes like this...
> 
> "Do you know who Michael Jackson was?"
> -Yes
> "Can you name one of his record albums?"
> -No
> "Can you name one of his songs?"
> -No
> "Did you ever watched him perform?"
> -No
> "Do you know who Madonna is?"
> -I've heard the name
> (he's laughing again) "That's why it ain't funny to ya'."
> 
> Like I said, guess I ain't hip enough... so the joke's on me this time (shrug)... I can handle it...
> 
> 
> 
> *




So i take it "You lost the 80's " somewhere


----------



## .404

blsnelling said:


> That makes sense, with the much higher film strength of the ester oil.



Here's a barnburner: I turn all my used oil from diesel pickups, skidsteer, skidder, excavator... etc. larger quantities of synthetic oil than you get out of a car, plus also car oil changes to a friend who runs an upholstery and hot rod fabricating business. All synthetic. He heats his shop with a waste oil burner, I believe it is a, "Reznor." Anyhow, he goes through something like 7-8 gallons a day of conventional oil from other sources in there and trust me, it is toasty.

Now you know tightwaddedness is the main gripe with guys who refuse ester oils its due. But when my shop-owner buddy uses 15w40 and 5w30 out of my barrels, he uses less than 5 gallons per day. Same cold weather same toasty shop. Which oil has more BTUs in practical terms......?

Edit: He also states no clogging problems in the nozzle from my clean syn which is a stumbling block for waste oil heaters by and large.....


----------



## Trx250r180

.404 said:


> Here's a barnburner: I turn all my used oil from diesel pickups, skidsteer, skidder, excavator... etc. larger quantities of synthetic oil than you get out of a car, plus also car oil changes to a friend who runs an upholstery and hot rod fabricating business. All synthetic. He heats his shop with a waste oil burner, I believe it is a, "Reznor." Anyhow, he goes through something like 7-8 gallons a day of conventional oil from other sources in there and trust me, it is toasty.
> 
> Now you know tightwaddedness is the main gripe with guys who refuse ester oils its due. But when my shop-owner buddy uses 15w40 and 5w30 out of my barrels, he uses less than 5 gallons per day. Same cold weather same toasty shop. Which oil has more BTUs in practical terms......?
> 
> Edit: He also states no clogging problems in the nozzle from my clean syn which is a stumbling block for waste oil heaters by and large.....


Dump the oil in the fuel tank of your dodge and burn it again ,tail pipe has a weird odor ,but get free fuel for your truck ,guy that crushes my cars does this ,he filters it somehow and has to cut it with a little gas


----------



## .404

Trx250r180 said:


> Dump the oil in the fuel tank of your dodge and burn it again ,tail pipe has a weird odor ,but get free fuel for your truck ,guy that crushes my cars does this ,he filters it somehow and has to cut it with a little gas



My Dad would roll in his grave.........


----------



## .404

...............But if it didn't have only 800,000 miles on it I might try.


----------



## Trx250r180

I will ask him what he does more exact what he does next time he smashes my cars . Good to learn how to make own fuel if get anything out of it .


----------



## redbull660

* POST #4000 - 'HAWT' Oil for the win ?*


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> Lucas 32:1 To me it didn't feel as responsive or crisp as the h1r. Kinda boggy
> 
> Lucas 36:1 more responsive can crisp than the 32:1 lucas...actually pretty nice. But not quite as nice as h1r.
> 
> To confirm the oil film - I went back to cutting. Burned up 4 tanks of 32:1 lucas. Still not as responsive or crisp as 36:1 lucas and 45:1 h1r.



Then please clarify your above statements.


----------



## .404

Now there's some good film strength........


----------



## rogue661

It's mostly still on the hush hush but 60:1 and 2nd to none as a bar oil! what is It?....We all know eco friendly recycled products are the future true?, well welcome to the future GUTTER OIL! good stuff smells like chit but haha.....


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> There is nothing to clarify. Those statements are comparisons. And *they say nothing about "problems"*


Bogging isn't an issue? Poor throttle response isn't an issue? I don't have any problems with your opinions on Lucas, quite frankly your opinionated testing while appreciated means nothing to me. 

You're never going to get a solid understanding of what the oil is actually doing until you disassemble your saw. I don't see that you've done that yet. Some oils cling to pistons and leave little on the cylinder bore, others the opposite. Simply looking at the exhaust port and saying "well I don't like this one" or "the piston looks so good" isn't telling me anything but opinions. 

You want to see what oil is doing? Look at the cylinder, take the rings off the piston, look at the crown and combustion chamber. But most importantly look at the con rod bearing and crank bearings. The easiest/cheapest oil test you can do and you haven't done is an evaporation test. See what's left after you've let it sit. Share if the oil separates or become tacky. 

Do something rather provide opinion, as there's 190+ pages of that. And there's no need for you to lash at anyone who disagrees with you. By this point in this thread you should be used to people having difficulty agreeing with you.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> OK... so we're on the road back over to western Iowa and I'm surfin' the web, lookin' for Celebrity Deathmatch.
> I find a YouTube of Madonna vs Michael Jackson... guess I just ain't hip enough... couldn't see the comedy in it.
> Now, my brother (the boss), is laughin' so hard there's tears in his eyes... so I ask him what's so funny, and it goes like this...
> 
> "Do you know who Michael Jackson was?"
> -Yes
> "Can you name one of his record albums?"
> -No
> "Can you name one of his songs?"
> -No
> "Did you ever watched him perform?"
> -No
> "Do you know who Madonna is?"
> -I've heard the name
> (he's laughing again) "That's why it ain't funny to ya'."
> 
> Like I said, guess I ain't hip enough... so the joke's on me this time (shrug)... I can handle it...
> *


That show was on probably 20 years ago so i was about 15 at the time so i participated[emoji1]


----------



## redbull660

cuttinties said:


> Bogging isn't an issue? Poor throttle response isn't an issue? I don't have any problems with your opinions on Lucas, quite frankly your opinionated testing while appreciated means nothing to me.
> 
> You're never going to get a solid understanding of what the oil is actually doing until you disassemble your saw. I don't see that you've done that yet. Some oils cling to pistons and leave little on the cylinder bore, others the opposite. Simply looking at the exhaust port and saying "well I don't like this one" or "the piston looks so good" isn't telling me anything but opinions.
> 
> You want to see what oil is doing? Look at the cylinder, take the rings off the piston, look at the crown and combustion chamber. But most importantly look at the con rod bearing and crank bearings. The easiest/cheapest oil test you can do and you haven't done is an evaporation test. See what's left after you've let it sit. Share if the oil separates or become tacky.
> 
> Do something rather provide opinion, as there's 190+ pages of that. And there's no need for you to lash at anyone who disagrees with you. By this point in this thread you should be used to people having difficulty agreeing with you.



I didn't say bogging. I said 32:1 it was kinda boggy compared to the 36:1 lucas.

I didn't say poor throttle response. I said not as responsive and not as crisp...something like that.

im not lashing out at you.

You keep saying I said this or I said that, when I didn't. ...putting words into my mouth. That's the only problem here. And therefore I'm done responding to you.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> That makes sense, with the much higher film strength of the ester oil.


That has nothing to do with Brad... If anyone thinks a saws going to run different on 36:1 vs 32:1 they need their head checked. RB is hung up on H1R for some reason.


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> I believe the ester will leave a better coating, but i'm calling BS on looking like dry lube film. You're seeing what you want to see.


It took you that long to realize this. If RB wants 32:1 to be slower, it will be.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> I didn't say bogging. I said 32:1 it was kinda boggy compared to the 36:1 lucas.
> 
> I didn't say poor throttle response. I said not as responsive and not as crisp...something like that.
> 
> im not lashing out at you.
> 
> You keep saying I said this or I said that, when I didn't. ...putting words into my mouth. That's the only problem here. And therefore I'm done responding to you.


The difference between 32:1 and 36:1 is miniscule, there is no way you can tell the difference between the two. Sorry I know beyond any doubt, you're not the sharpest aero in the quiver.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> That has nothing to do with Brad... If anyone thinks a saws going to run different on 36:1 vs 32:1 they need their head checked. RB is hung up on H1R for some reason.


I was only referring to the residual film of oil. I can't imagine there being any difference in how a saw runs on 32:1 vs 36:1. That's called the placebo effect.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Andyshine77 said:


> It took you that long to realize this. If RB wants 32:1 to be slower, it will be.


No i realized it about 3999 posts ago but its getting ridiculous.


----------



## Marshy

KenJax Tree said:


> That show was on probably 20 years ago so i was about 15 at the time so i participated[emoji1]


That show was a riot. One of the last few things MTV did right before they turned into a puss-bag show.


----------



## Whitespider

Trx250r180 said:


> *So i take it "You lost the 80's " somewhere*


Naw... I didn't lose the 80s, I just refused to participate.
Disco had destroyed (popular/radio/club sound) "rock" music during the late 70s... so the 80s became my Honky-Tonk/Outlaw Country era.
You know?? Hank Williams, Faron Young, Waylon Jennings, David Allan Coe, Merle Haggard, Gary Stewart, Willie Nelson, George Jones, Billy Joe Shaver and the like.
*


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> The difference between 32:1 and 36:1 is miniscule, there is no way you can tell the difference between the two. Sorry I know beyond any doubt, you're not the sharpest aero in the quiver.




12% difference is miniscule? lol


----------



## Whitespider

Marshy said:


> *That show was a riot. One of the last few things MTV did right before they turned into a puss-bag show.*


Ya' know?? I just don't watch TV... or very little anyway... never really have (I find it boring, it normally puts me to sleep).
I'll watch a bit during the winter... on average, maybe an hour per week... but this time of year an hour per month is a stretch. We're 15 days into this month and I ain't watched 10 seconds of TV... probably something over three weeks since I've even looked at it. On a stormy Sunday afternoon I might watch part of a NASCAR race or a baseball game... which always turns into a nice nap. Seriously, if it weren't for the wife and kids, I likely wouldn't even own a TV... but, we've got 5 of 'em connected to a satellite dish in the house now . The wife just up-graded our tuners and DVR; supposedly we can record in one room and watch it in another now... or, at least that's what she tells me. I just nod and smile... I don't know how to make the thing record, so what good is being able to watch in another room what I don't know how to record anyway??
*


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> The difference between 32:1 and 36:1 is miniscule, there is no way you can tell the difference between the two. Sorry I know beyond any doubt, you're not the sharpest aero in the quiver.


Glad I am not the only one who sees this and isn't afraid to call him out.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> took some pics as well
> 
> lucas 32:1 after 4 tanks in 661 - ran a tank on 20" a tank on 24" and 2 tanks on 30" bar.


Much cleaner burning than that H1R pics you have posted.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> I've used 32:1 in AT/m-tronic saws with zero affect on the throttle response.


As have I.


----------



## bwalker

RE: oil coating after shutdown. This is related to ratio and one of the side benifits of running a little more oil in your mix. The actual amount of oil coating bearings and the piston cylinder interface after shut down is a function of clearances. Further different oil colors give the appearance of more oil. IE a dark green or blue mix oil will show up against bare metal better than a orange dyed oil.
Honestly I never worried about residual oil because I never run less oil than 40:1 or mostly never more than 32:1.


----------



## cuttinties

I'm still curious about why he mixed Lucas at 36:1. The jug has easy to chart on the back. And accordingly mixing 36:1 would be uneeded effort.


----------



## bwalker

4


cuttinties said:


> I'm still curious about why he mixed Lucas at 36:1. The jug has easy to chart on the back. And accordingly mixing 36:1 would be uneeded effort.


4 ounces to a gallon is pretty hard to screw up..


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> RE: oil coating after shutdown. This is related to ratio and one of the side benifits of running a little more oil in your mix. The actual amount of oil coating bearings and the piston cylinder interface after shut down is a function of clearances. Further different oil colors give the appearance of more oil. IE a dark green or blue mix oil will show up against bare metal better than a orange dyed oil.
> Honestly I never worried about residual oil because I never run less oil than 40:1 or mostly never more than 32:1.



I've noticed that K2 at a certain angle has a reflective look.

The whole residual thing to me is nice to see but you are correct I trust that the bearings at 32:1 are plenty lubricated


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> I've noticed that K2 at a certain angle has a reflective look.
> 
> The whole residual thing to me is nice to see but you are correct I trust that the bearings at 32:1 are plenty lubricated


There is certainly nothing magical about a 32:1 ratio. However it does work very well across a variety of applications and loads. I have had very good luck using it, but also use more oil on occasion for things like duning, milling or with engines that are sensitive to failure like Rotax 800cc twins.


----------



## cuttinties

Seriously though if you really want to test these oils then by all means do so. You have means to test temps. Don't ignore science and stick opinion. Show us your findings. 


Evaporation test cut and dry simple.

Test boiling points

Test Flashpoint 

Test how they burn (residual carbon test)


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> There is certainly nothing magical about a 32:1 ratio. However it does work very well across a variety of applications and loads. I have had very good luck using it, but also use more oil on occasion for things like duning, milling or with engines that are sensitive to failure like Rotax 800cc twins.


especially Rotax engines


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Seriously though if you really want to test these oils then by all means do so. You have means to test temps. Don't ignore science and stick opinion. Show us your findings.
> 
> 
> Evaporation test cut and dry simple.
> 
> Test boiling points
> 
> Test Flashpoint
> 
> Test how they burn (residual carbon test)


And what relevance does flash point or boiling point have?
One of the problems with this subject and this thread is some people are under the impression they can compare figures like the above and come to some sort of decision on an oil's quality. You simply can't and for a a variety of reasons.
One example would be viscosity. Redbull would have you believe yamalube 2R is junk because it's viscosity is lower than H1R. What he's not considering is after you evaporate the diluent from 2R, as would happen when it enters a motor, 2r is likely much thicker than H1R. He also believes that the viscosity of H1R is what makes it run poorly at 32:1, however I am testing K2, which has a similar viscosity to H1R and it runs perfectly at 32:1. Even with a Autotune saw.
I guess what I am saying is this subject is pretty complex to dig into and distilling it down to simple comparisons based on MSDS sheets is a complete joke.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> And what relevance does flash point or boiling point have?
> One of the problems with this subject and this thread is some people are under the impression they can compare figures like the above and come to some sort of decision on an oil's quality. You simply can't and for a a variety of reasons.


My point was simply to test the oils rather than peep in a muffler. Boiling point matters some in bottom end in my opinion. The higher boiling point would be conducive in consistent surface lubrication as boiling will cause spotting. Flashpoint isn't extremely pertinent in the how effective an oil is. But it plays a role in carbon residue I'm sure. 

The only real way to know is to test it is my point. Experience is the best education. And hands on applications are the easiest lessons to learn. Seeing the results rather than speculative conversation is what I'd like to see.


----------



## cuttinties

Something else that should be considered in this oil fiasco. Has anyone considered that some of these oils are more ideal for oil injection systems more so than a premix?


----------



## bwalker

The only injection oils being talked about in this thread are 710 and Lucas.
I am not a fan of using injection oils in pre mix applications.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> The only injection oils being talked about in this thread are 710 and Lucas.
> I am not a fan of using injection oils in pre mix applications.


Lucas Semi synthetic is a tweener. But I would have to agree with you.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> My point was simply to test the oils rather than peep in a muffler. Boiling point matters some in bottom end in my opinion. The higher boiling point would be conducive in consistent surface lubrication as boiling will cause spotting. Flashpoint isn't extremely pertinent in the how effective an oil is. But it plays a role in carbon residue I'm sure.
> 
> The only real way to know is to test it is my point. Experience is the best education. And hands on applications are the easiest lessons to learn. Seeing the results rather than speculative conversation is what I'd like to see.


Flashpoint plays a role in shipping and handling and that's about it. Boiling point is pretty meaningless as it pertains to lower end lubrication because the lower end is well below the end boiling point of two cycle oils by necessity.
The best results to look at are piston crown deposits and especially ring land deposits.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Lucas Semi synthetic is a tweener. But I would have to agree with


There are pre mix oils and injection oils. Injection oils can be premixed, but premix oils shouldn't be used in injection sytems. That's not to say I have not used a pre mix lube in an injection system, but you better be damn careful if you go down that route.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Flashpoint plays a role in shipping and handling and that's about it. Boiling point is pretty meaningless as it pertains to lower end lubrication because the lower end is well below the end boiling point of two cycle oils by necessity.
> The best results to look at are piston crown deposits and especially ring land deposits.


Most boiling points are 400+ . The con rod bearing has the best chance of getting to that tempature. But it's awfully difficult to find the temperature of internals. Blued con rods aren't uncommon.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> especially Rotax engines


My 800 went 7500 miles before I sold it and with rhe crappy laminate moly filled rings still in place. I was running Citgo Sea and Snow at the equivalent of 20:1. Never fouled a single plug and the Rave valves looked good when inspected yearly.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Most boiling points are 400+ . The con rod bearing has the best chance of getting to that tempature. But it's awfully difficult to find the temperature of internals. Blued con rods aren't uncommon.


Blued con rods are typically caused by lack of lube, at least on thr big end. I would think the big end rod bearing temp would be around half of 400, although I can't say for certain.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> My 800 went 7500 miles before I sold it and the crappy laminate moly filled rings. I was running Citgo Sea and Snow at the equivalent of 20:1. Never fouled a single plug and the Rave valves looked good when inspected yearly.


How many times did you have to add ISO to the crank bearings or was that a myth?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Blued controls are typically caused by lack of lube and I would think the big end rod bearing temp would be around half of 400, although I can't say for certain.


That's the thing is none of us have the means to really confirm the true operating temperatures of the big end bearing.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> How many times did you have to add ISO to the crank bearings or was that a myth?


Cranks bearings still had the factory is flex in them. Never worried about it.
And I should add I absolutely flogged that sled. Lots of our trails are on old rail lines so you can cruise at 90+mph. Also did a fair amount of deep powder riding, which is taxing.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> That's the thing is none of us have the means to really confirm the true operating temperatures of the big end bearing.


You could hit the crank case with a temp gun and get a good idea.
Somethings you just have to accept you won't ever know definativly. And in this case it really doesn't matter much. Lower end failures are mostly caused by dirt ingestion and or lack of lube. Run clean filters and make sure they fit up tight, plus run a decent amount of oil and you don't have to worry about your lower end.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> You could hit the crank case with a temp gun and get a good idea.
> Somethings you just have to accept you won't ever know definativly. And in this case it really doesn't matter much. Lower end failures are mostly caused by dirt ingestion and or lack of lube. Run clean filters and make sure they fit up tight, plus run a decent amount of oil and you don't have to worry about your lower end.


I run 32:1 and I'm extremely picky about my air filters. But if you've seen some of my customers shet you'd be amazed.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> I run 32:1 and I'm extremely picky about my air filters. But if you've seen some of my customers shet you'd be amazed.


I'm sure. Air filters are hugely important for a two stroke. Much more bang for your buck obsessing on air filters than oil.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> I'm sure. Air filters are hugely important for a two stroke. Much more bang for your buck obsessing on air filters than oil.


Clean clean and clean. Sharp chain and good tune.


----------



## Whitespider




----------



## johnny5ny

KG441c said:


> Impressive! U have my respect!! Lol!!


Lol
This guy doesn't know the difference (or how to use) there, their, and they're. Your and you're? Nope.
I'm certain there's (<---see that bwalker?) more, but I cannot read this crap any more tonight.
BS degree alright. Wonder what unrelated field it's in.


----------



## bwalker

johnny5ny said:


> Lol
> This guy doesn't know the difference (or how to use) there, their, and they're. Your and you're? Nope.
> I'm certain there's (<---see that bwalker?) more, but I cannot read this crap any more tonight.
> BS degree alright. Wonder what unrelated field it's in.


I am using a smart phone with a damn auto correct feature that is vexing at times. Please forgive me!


----------



## KG441c

Id like to hear about viscosities after the solvents and PIB boil off?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Id like to hear about viscosities after the solvents and PIB boil off?


The PIB is present till the end as it is the component that prevents scuffing. Very high viscosity fluid.


----------



## KG441c

Ok so the base oils of lets compare R2 against 800t and r50. Are the viscosities the same? As far as the PIBs are concerned is this where the additional viscosities come from and wear advantages in the formulations from one oil to the next ?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Maybe you guys can try this i have used all three before i was on AS with good results the pennzoil smelled better than the rest.


----------



## KG441c

I think most will do a sufficient job but have seen alot of equipment I work on for customers from chainsaws to weedeaters and blowers. Ive seen some wear on equipment ran at 50to1 with certain oils. May be in the tune or the incorrect mix though? Ouaker State 2t , some no name brands, and really dont care for Stihl Ultra but thats just my opinion


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ok so the base oils of lets compare R2 against 800t and r50. Are the viscosities the same? As far as the PIBs are concerned is this where the additional viscosities come from and wear advantages in the formulations from one oil to the next ?


Can't really answer any of that without a whole lot of speculation.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ok so the base oils of lets compare R2 against 800t and r50. Are the viscosities the same? As far as the PIBs are concerned is this where the additional viscosities come from and wear advantages in the formulations from one oil to the next ?


Can't really answer any of that without a whole lot of speculation.


jakewells said:


> Maybe you guys can try this i have used all three before i was on AS with good results the pennzoil smelled better than the rest.
> View attachment 425101
> 
> 
> View attachment 425100
> 
> 
> View attachment 425102


The valvoline product is a boat motor oil and shouldn't be ran in air cooled equipment


----------



## Trx250r180

Maxima k2 and Maxima super M ,is there a whole lot of difference ? Both have real similar descriptions on the website .


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> Maxima k2 and Maxima super M ,is there a whole lot of difference ? Both have real similar descriptions on the website .


K2 is a full synthetic, Super M is a synthetic blend.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Maxima k2 and Maxima super M ,is there a whole lot of difference ? Both have real similar descriptions on the website .


They are quit different.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Can't really answer any of that without a whole lot of speculation.
> 
> The valvoline product is a boat motor oil and shouldn't be ran in air cooled equipment


If I was looking for something cheap and available at gas stations I would run Citgo Air cooled. It's a FC/FD certified oil and it works pretty good. Citgo has two cycle oils figured out. They make Echo's oil and made Yamalube 2R until recently.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> Maxima k2 and Maxima super M ,is there a whole lot of difference ? Both have real similar descriptions on the website .


I was told by Maxima that Super M is 60% K2 and 40% petroleum oil. Whether its true not idk but they're the same color and the exhaust smells the same.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I was told by Maxima that Super M is 60% K2 and 40% petroleum oil. Whether its true not idk but they're the same color and the exhaust smells the same.


It appears to me by looking at the msds sheets that they are totaly different. It is hard to say definitively.


----------



## Miles86

Hey-

sorry I didn't read all 202 pages, here are my casual experiences with oils:

racing oils without solvents (belray h1r, motul 800t , silkolene pro 2sx) all these are huge overkill for small *** and make tuning hard as these oils just pass thru the engine leaving an oily exhaust . These are all sae 40 or sae 50 weight.

Using a factory type oil (with a solvent dilutent-kerosene) these are sae 20 also called injector oils. These at 20:1 and carb adjusted for the extra oil are giving me the best results of throttle response and clean burning. 20:1 as oil is cheap and crankshaft service is not cheap.

Castor oils are a no go I have found, too hard to keep a consistent mix and plug fouling at the worst time.

Also found that PWC oils (NOT outboard )work great in *** plus give extra corrosion protection from humid damp storage conditions.

notice the higher TBN of pwc jaso FD versus factory oil jaso FD

Quicksilver (citgo) PWC =all walmarts
Mystik PWC *same*- online order
Lubrication engineers monolec 8104-online order http://products.lelubricants.com/it...er=10&categid=1002&prodid=1233&origin=keyword


----------



## Deleted member 83629

the PWC oil at walmart is 15$ quart here


----------



## gduvic

Gulfpride two stroke oil.Used it for years (40:1)never any problems.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

quaker state 2t is good but they place i used to buy it from quit ordering it. got the quarts for 5$ a 6 pack of the 8oz bottles was only 4$


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> quaker state 2t is good but they place i used to buy it from quit ordering it. got the quarts for 5$ a 6 pack of the 8oz bottles was only 4$


I just got a cub cadet weedeater in the shop running QS 2t but the exhaust side of piston and cylinder was scored up pretty bad!! Hard to say if someone didnt mix right, messed with tune , dirty air filter?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

running lean will do it too but the cub cadet trimmers are close to junk anyways.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> running lean will do it too but the cub cadet trimmers are close to junk anyways.


Ur not lying there!! That dang o ring on the back of the crankcase for a seal is a joke!!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my dad ran the qs 2t for years in his weedeater gti 19 at 40:1 when the shaft got worn out he pitched it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

the husqvarna 223l or stihl fs94r should be 10x better than the cub-cajunk


----------



## KG441c

The craftsman(troybilt) 4 cycle trimmer with valves and a walbro barrel wlyb carb isnt too bad I worked on today. The extra weight on the engine paired with the short curved shaft is a back breaker though!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

you want a back breaker? i will bring forth the fs 250 you would be hunch backed after packed it around a hr or so.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> It appears to me by looking at the msds sheets that they are totaly different.





Miles86 said:


> Hey-
> 
> sorry I didn't read all 202 pages, here are my casual experiences with oils:
> 
> racing oils without solvents (belray h1r, motul 800t , silkolene pro 2sx) all these are huge overkill for small *** and make tuning hard as these oils just pass thru the engine leaving an oily exhaust . These are all sae 40 or sae 50 weight.
> 
> Using a factory type oil (with a solvent dilutent-kerosene) these are sae 20 also called injector oils. These at 20:1 and carb adjusted for the extra oil are giving me the best results of throttle response and clean burning. 20:1 as oil is cheap and crankshaft service is not cheap.
> 
> Castor oils are a no go I have found, too hard to keep a consistent mix and plug fouling at the worst time.
> 
> Also found that PWC oils (NOT outboard )work great in *** plus give extra corrosion protection from humid damp storage conditions.
> 
> notice the higher TBN of pwc jaso FD versus factory oil jaso FD
> 
> Quicksilver (citgo) PWC =all walmarts
> Mystik PWC *same*- online order
> Lubrication engineers monolec 8104-online order http://products.lelubricants.com/it...er=10&categid=1002&prodid=1233&origin=keyword


The presence of solvent in a blend has nothing to do with viscosity or its use as an injector oil. Maxima K2 is a case in point. It contains some solvent, yet is a premix only oil with a viscosity which is about the same as H1R.
PWC oils would be suitable for use in a saw chemistry wise, but they are injector oils, which I prefer not to run in pre mix applications.


----------



## Trx250r180

This may sound like a dumb question, is there a good quality oil with blue dye in it? Most of the ones I have been trying out the fuel looks clear like no mix is in it, worried about someone at work grabbing strait gas I guess and putting in my equipment.


----------



## CR500

Trx250r180 said:


> This may sound like a dumb question, is there a good quality oil with blue dye in it? Most of the ones I have been trying out the fuel looks clear like no mix is in it, worried about someone at work grabbing strait gas I guess and putting in my equipment.


I have not tried enough oil yet but these 2 stick out to the point if someone can not tell that the fuel is mixed they may be color blind

Motul and K2


----------



## KenJax Tree

Lucas is blue and Yamalube 2R is dark purple


----------



## Deleted member 83629

motul looks like kool aid when it is mixed with gas YUMMY!


----------



## bwalker

Red or orange is a terrible color for a pre mix oil IMO. Given gas cans are red it's hard to tell if the fuel they contain is mixed.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I mixed yamalube yesterday and i thought it looked like grape kool-aid


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I mixed yamalube yesterday and i thought it looked like grape kool-aid


You sure you don't mean grape drink?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> You sure you don't mean grape drink?



I wasnt leanin'


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Trx250r180 said:


> This may sound like a dumb question, is there a good quality oil with blue dye in it? Most of the ones I have been trying out the fuel looks clear like no mix is in it, worried about someone at work grabbing strait gas I guess and putting in my equipment.


poulan 2t is dark blue and is good oil for the price.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im burning a wild mix in trimmers and blowers today mixed at 40:1 i had 16 oz of motul 8002t mixed with 16oz of echo red armor i blended the oils really well before i mixed them with fuel, it smells very funny. but echo red armor does have a ester base in it anyways.


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I mixed yamalube yesterday and i thought it looked like grape kool-aid


U run it?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> U run it?



Ill run the 2.5 gallons this week , i mixed it at 40:1

I ran a tank of it through my blower when i got home , we have 4 fukkin maple trees around the ghetto homestead that make me crazy with the mess they make..but my lady wants them to stay to keep the shade..i hate them.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

why not mix different brands of oil and run them.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> Red or orange is a terrible color for a pre mix oil IMO. Given gas cans are red it's hard to tell if the fuel they contain is mixed.


not unless you have a white fuel can lol


----------



## Deleted member 83629

you can buy 5 gallon clear race can from jegs or cycle shops.


----------



## CR500

That is what I do, ussally I mix up 5 gallons and transfer it over to a gallon jug hen needed.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

5 gallons only last me a week bummer.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> why not mix different brands of oil and run them.


Why mix? Personally I think it's foolish.


----------



## LowVolt

bwalker said:


> Why mix? Personally I think it's foolish.


And a 200+ page thread about oil isn't? Maybe mixing them could create a super duper oil that protects our s h i t beyond our wildest imaginations!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I love arboristsite personalities.


----------



## KG441c

Alil 800t was ran this day


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> View attachment 425307
> Alil 800t was ran this day


 I bet that Stihl bar feels lonely surrounded by all those Canadian and Japanese bars.


----------



## CR500

any word on cannon's lightweight bars yet?


----------



## mdavlee

CR500 said:


> any word on cannon's lightweight bars yet?


I asked Dave if he had heard anything and he hasn't. I'm hoping later this summer they'll be out.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i thought laminated bars were light?


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> I bet that Stihl bar feels lonely surrounded by all those Canadian and Japanese bars.


Ill take the Canadian any day of the week but the es light balances perfect on the 461r


----------



## KG441c

CR500 said:


> any word on cannon's lightweight bars yet?


Cannon Pres told me Oct. But who knows


----------



## Deleted member 83629

any oil snobs want to try _super tech outboard at 32:1_ for a week????????


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> any oil snobs want to try _super tech outboard at 32:1_ for a week????????


NO!


----------



## smokey7

Ok so i have to change my mind on lucas fd oil. I have ran 4 qts of it thru 2 of my saws a poulas 3314 42cc strato and echo 452vl at 32:1 with 89 no ethanol. It burns real clean but my pistons look real dry with little oil on them. I didnt believe redbull when he said thats how it looked on his saw. I had to pull a couple mufflers and see for myself. They are dry as a popcorn fart. So i am done with it for now, gotta find something else.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> Ok so i have to change my mind on lucas fd oil. I have ran 4 qts of it thru 2 of my saws a poulas 3314 42cc strato and echo 452vl at 32:1 with 89 no ethanol. It burns real clean but my pistons look real dry with little oil on them. I didnt believe redbull when he said thats how it looked on his saw. I had to pull a couple mufflers and see for myself. They are dry as a popcorn fart. So i am done with it for now, gotta find something else.


What is dry?


----------



## smokey7

The mufflers on both are dry and tan. The pistons and cylinders are very dry with a very very light film of oil. Not what im used to atall. I am not happy, no damage but not enough oil. I ran it on these two saws because it was a strato and non strato that were not expensive saws.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> The mufflers on both are dry and tan. The pistons and cylinders are very dry with a very very light film of oil. Not what im used to atall. I am not happy, no damage but not enough oil. I ran it on these two saws because it was a strato and non strato that were not expensive saws.


That's how they should look if you have proper combustion. I can not figure out why some think it's a good idea to spew un burnt and partially burnt oil out the exhaust? A wet muffler is a sign of poor tuning, crappy oil or the wrong oil for the application you are using it in.


----------



## smokey7

I agree somewhat with you. I think it burns very clean, even cleaning out some old deposits. The p&c are so dry that i can barely wet my finger tip or leave a wipe mark on the piston or cyl. I agree that it should be tan and dry in muffler just like to see a bit more oil. I wonder how it would do at 24:1? I dont want to waste 2 qts so i am to try that before i switch. I do run them pretty hard, and want to see more oil. I am a little too cheap to pay much more then $10 a qt and has to be available. I gotta try and take pics to show it. I think my tune is pretty sharp too.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> I agree somewhat with you. I think it burns very clean, even cleaning out some old deposits. The p&c are so dry that i can barely wet my finger tip or leave a wipe mark on the piston or cyl. I agree that it should be tan and dry in muffler just like to see a bit more oil. I wonder how it would do at 24:1? I dont want to waste 2 qts so i am to try that before i switch. I do run them pretty hard, and want to see more oil. I am a little too cheap to pay much more then $10 a qt and has to be available. I gotta try and take pics to show it. I think my tune is pretty sharp too.


You will be fine at 32:1 IMO. Short of milling I don't think 24:1 is required.


----------



## smokey7

Also it takes much longer to color the plug. To the point you tune richer in fear you are lean. I have never had a plug take much more then 5 or 10 min to read. This stuff takes almost a tank to get a read at the base of white inside the plug.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> I agree somewhat with you. I think it burns very clean, even cleaning out some old deposits. The p&c are so dry that i can barely wet my finger tip or leave a wipe mark on the piston or cyl. I agree that it should be tan and dry in muffler just like to see a bit more oil. I wonder how it would do at 24:1? I dont want to waste 2 qts so i am to try that before i switch. I do run them pretty hard, and want to see more oil. I am a little too cheap to pay much more then $10 a qt and has to be available. I gotta try and take pics to show it. I think my tune is pretty sharp too.


You will be fine at 32:1 IMO. Short of milling I don't think 24:1 is required.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> Also it takes much longer to color the plug. To the point you tune richer in fear you are lean. I have never had a plug take much more then 5 or 10 min to read. This stuff takes almost a tank to get a read at the base of white inside the plug.


Reading plugs that way is nearly useless. Get yourself a tac or use the cut and feel method.
Sounds like you are not accustomed to oil that burns clean.


----------



## smokey7

You seem quite confident. Can you show me a muffler and piston you are proud of so i can compare them to mine.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> You seem quite confident. Can you show me a muffler and piston you are proud of so i can compare them to mine.


I posted one earlier in this thread of my 562 muffler.


----------



## smokey7

You are right with that. I have tried tons of oil. Ran tons of 2 smokes, i have gotten way more nuts about it after i started modding a few years ago. Do you remember what page i dont want to go back thru them all. Thank you.


----------



## smokey7

I suppose to clear up my position i love how clean lucas runs, i just dont like seeing so little residual oil film. What do you think causes that. Thin starting viscosity, too lean tune, that's how it should be, or something else. I guess looking at the bottom end would comfort me some too. I know when i have run other oils i have had a wet oil.coated surfaces on p&c. I am looking for advice of a oil that would offer the results i am looking for in my price and availabity requirements.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> I suppose to clear up my position i love how clean lucas runs, i just dont like seeing so little residual oil film. What do you think causes that. Thin starting viscosity, too lean tune, that's how it should be, or something else. I guess looking at the bottom end would comfort me some too. I know when i have run other oils i have had a wet oil.coated surfaces on p&c. I am looking for advice of a oil that would offer the results i am looking for in my price and availabity requirements.


Residual oil is a product of oil ratio. If your running 32:1 I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> You are right with that. I have tried tons of oil. Ran tons of 2 smokes, i have gotten way more nuts about it after i started modding a few years ago. Do you remember what page i dont want to go back thru them all. Thank you.


Sorry, I dont.


----------



## KG441c

smokey7 said:


> Ok so i have to change my mind on lucas fd oil. I have ran 4 qts of it thru 2 of my saws a poulas 3314 42cc strato and echo 452vl at 32:1 with 89 no ethanol. It burns real clean but my pistons look real dry with little oil on them. I didnt believe redbull when he said thats how it looked on his saw. I had to pull a couple mufflers and see for myself. They are dry as a popcorn fart. So i am done with it for now, gotta find something else.


What did the bottom end look like?


----------



## Moparmyway

smokey7 said:


> I suppose to clear up my position i love how clean lucas runs, i just dont like seeing so little residual oil film. What do you think causes that. Thin starting viscosity, too lean tune, that's how it should be, or something else. I guess looking at the bottom end would comfort me some too. I know when i have run other oils i have had a wet oil.coated surfaces on p&c. I am looking for advice of a oil that would offer the results i am looking for in my price and availabity requirements.


How did the rings and the ring lands look ?
Can you snap a picture of them for us ?


----------



## smokey7

Ok so i got pics of the 452vl. Keep in mind it was way dirtier before i started using lucas from previous owner. I dont want to break it down if i dont have to


----------



## KG441c

What was ran in it previous to the Lucas?


----------



## smokey7

I really dont know i got it with a cracked fuel line and brown gas in it (not varnished). It very well could have been motor oil. I started it on some penzoil air cooled about 2 qts, then 4 qts lucas. So what is the verdict from the pros, i suppose some cuts are near milling time from using this when i should have brought the 630. Some cuts are over a minute or two.


----------



## smokey7

Are you speaking of how my saw looked at 32:1?


----------



## Moparmyway

smokey7 said:


> I really dont know i got it with a cracked fuel line and brown gas in it (not varnished). It very well could have been motor oil. I started it on some penzoil air cooled about 2 qts, then 4 qts lucas. So what is the verdict from the pros, i suppose some cuts are near milling time from using this when i should have brought the 630. Some cuts are over a minute or two.


That piston and its ring lands are ugly
For me, its too lean and could use more fuel. (going by the pic of the muffler)
Cant tell how much or how little oil is in the ring lands .............. that lets me know that there isnt enough oil

I dont mind a little oil in the muffler, and I dont like a white exhaust.
Thats 2 strikes in my book


----------



## redbull660

smokey7 said:


> Ok so i have to change my mind on lucas fd oil. I have ran 4 qts of it thru 2 of my saws a poulas 3314 42cc strato and echo 452vl at 32:1 with 89 no ethanol. It burns real clean but my pistons look real dry with little oil on them. I didnt believe redbull when he said thats how it looked on his saw. I had to pull a couple mufflers and see for myself. They are dry as a popcorn fart. So i am done with it for now, gotta find something else.




I expected my saw to look how it did, running 50:1 lucas, *not* 32:1. I expected way more oil at that rich of a ratio. (32:1)

I guess I thought if it looks that bad at 32:1, I don't want to even think about 50:1 !!! (what Lucas recommended when I contacted them) 

IMO it(my saw) should have had more oil...a lot more oil given I was at 32:1.


Is Lucas a bad oil? I dunno. I didn't like how it looked in my saw....even at 32:1.

*Are there better choices for the same price? Very very likely.
*



smokey7 said:


> Are you speaking of how my saw looked at 32:1?



mine... and I guess from your above comment yours....it sounds like you would have expected more oil as well vs what your used to. What do you normally run?


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> I wouldnt judge Lucas by one saw. U have folks like cuttinties and Kenjax using it everyday and like it



Not saying it's garbage. Or it can't be used at 32:1. But come on if you've got to use it at 32:1 ratio to get just "ok" effects.

My bottom line is this thread is meant to find the best oil. I'm not saying it's H1R. We have to test a bunch to find out.

But IMO lucas isn't even close to the "best". I mean...heck, I'd bet money that 2R outperforms Lucas and 2R is the same price!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i use a gallon jug of lucas 2t every 6 week burning 5 gallons per week of lucas at 32:1 i dont have a problem.


----------



## smokey7

I have used yamalube 2r and even back when it was just yamalube with no other letters or numbers, amsoil saber, itsaca penzoil, blue marble klotz r50, and many more. Ran them anywhere from 20:1 to 50:1 with varying residual, and would adjust ratio to get what i wanted for the application.


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## KenJax Tree

I think I'll go by what i've seen first hand myself and what Hedgerow and Mdavlee have to say.


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> I think I'll go by what i've seen first hand myself and what Hedgerow and Mdavlee have to say.


I agree ................ and I also keep in mind that carb tuning plays a big role in whats seen through the exhaust port and muffler


----------



## KG441c

I wouldnt judge Lucas by one saw. U have folks like cuttinties and Kenjax using it and like it


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## KenJax Tree

Matt (Hedgerow) uses it at 40:1 so i'm getting even more oil using 32:1.


----------



## redbull660

Mtronic is optimal tune right? So at optimal tune it did what it did. 

Carb'd you can make it look better than it is.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> Mtronic is optimal tune right? So at optimal tune it did what it did.
> 
> Carb'd you can make it look better than it is.


Jetting may be required on some mtronics /autotune saws to run 32:1?


----------



## smokey7

I dont argue i am tuned sharp. I learned from racers of bikes sleds and skis. I may have to adjust for saws. The weird thing is my strato poulanthats tweaked was coated well At 32:1 .


----------



## KenJax Tree

Optimal according to who? My autotune saws run a little leaner than i would like...but it is what it is.


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## KG441c

IMO its a mistake to classify these oils by viscosity and trying to tune by ratio. Bottomline for me is we are only looking at the topend and performance. I run 32to1 mostly for bottomend residual. If u go higher in ratio the bottomend will suffer especially on ported saws


----------



## KG441c

IMO its a mistake to classify these oils by viscosity and trying to tune by ratio. Bottomline for me is we are only looking at the topend and performance. I run 32to1 mostly for bottomend residual. If u go higher in ratio the bottomend will suffer especially on ported saws


----------



## Deleted member 83629

any want to to use these? i have used them in the past with good results. they are made by spectrum lubricants who blends and bottles most OEM chainsaw oils. they cost between 50cents to 1.79 you can get them at hardware stores or autozone.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Jetting may be required on some mtronics /autotune saws to run 32:1?


Question regarding a larger jet .............. wouldnt the autotune/mtronic just close off more or more often with a larger jet ?
Its still going to hunt for the most RPM by reducing fuel, then looking to see what the RPM does ............... in my mind I dont see the larger jet making a big difference on these saws. It might be more beneficial for in between throttle settings, like coming off a long cut, or piss revvin after a cut to get additional oil for the chain


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Question regarding a larger jet .............. wouldnt the autotune/mtronic just close off more or more often with a larger jet ?
> Its still going to hunt for the most RPM by reducing fuel, then looking to see what the RPM does ............... in my mind I dont see the larger jet making a big difference on these saws. It might be more beneficial for in between throttle settings, like coming off a long cut, or piss revvin after a cut to get additional oil for the chain


Or if the jet lets more mix in it will increase rpm until it reaches its max rpm? Not sure


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## Trx250r180

Piss revving makes me happy .


----------



## 2dogs

jakewells said:


> i use a gallon jug of lucas 2t every 6 week burning 5 gallons per week of lucas at 32:1 i dont have a problem.


Yeah but this is a chainsaw forum, not a lawn mowing forum.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

auto tune saws run like crap on 32:1 and 40:1


----------



## mdavlee

I wonder if the L jet and transition jet could be modded to help the lean run on after a cut.


----------



## redbull660

Emailed maxima, klotz, lucas, amsoil, belray, motul, and yamaha. all responded quickly *except* yamaha which hasn't responded at all...been 2 weeks.

Have called them all as well. Now on hold for yamaha ...what a total pain in the azz it is to get ahold of these guys.

anyone have a contact at yamaha that i could talk to about 2r?


update: just got through - oh brother. we would not recommend that oil in a chainsaw. well could you tell me at what temp it falls out of suspension...how cold can I use it at once it's mixed in with gas? ...every question I had = contact your local dealer. Is there someone there could help me further...no this is the distributor for north America you'd have to talk to japan OR your local dealer. " how annoying.

on phone with local dealer - ugh. worthless.

bwalker where are ya - once mixed with gas - at what temp does 2r start to fall out of suspension ? Don't tell me it doesn't. At least one of the additives etc Will fall out of suspension.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

mdavlee said:


> I wonder if the L jet and transition jet could be modded to help the lean run on after a cut.


what about adjusting the inlet needle height in the carb?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Emailed maxima, klotz, lucas, amsoil, belray, motul, and yamaha. all responded quickly *except* yamaha which hasn't responded at all...been 2 weeks.
> 
> Have called them all as well. Now on hold for yamaha ...what a total pain in the azz it is to get ahold of these guys.
> 
> anyone have a contact at yamaha that i could talk to about 2r?
> 
> 
> update: just got through - oh brother. we would not recommend that oil in a chainsaw. well could you tell me at what temp it falls out of suspension...how cold can I use it at once it's mixed in with gas? ...every question I had = contact your local dealer. Is there someone there could help me further...no this is the distributor for north America you'd have to talk to japan OR your local dealer. " how annoying.
> 
> on phone with local dealer - ugh. worthless.
> 
> bwalker where are ya - once mixed with gas - at what temp does 2r start to fall out of suspension ? Don't tell me it doesn't. At least one of the additives etc Will fall out of suspension.


I have ran it premixed in sleds at 1o below.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> That piston and its ring lands are ugly
> For me, its too lean and could use more fuel. (going by the pic of the muffler)
> Cant tell how much or how little oil is in the ring lands .............. that lets me know that there isnt enough oil
> 
> I dont mind a little oil in the muffler, and I dont like a white exhaust.
> Thats 2 strikes in my book


Assuming the saw is tuned right, here is nothing wrong with the way that muffler looks.
I think alot of you guys are just not accustomed to not having a saw tuned overly rich.


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## Big_Wood

when it comes to the lucas oil next time actually touch the piston and exhaust port with your finger. the oil dries to a goo when the saw cools kinda like what winterizing oil does to an outboard or any other 2 stroke. i've ran and been into a few saws now that have ran it and there is always oil in the case. if you wanna see a film of oil on your piston fire it up and just run it for a few seconds then pull muffler off the check again. lucas does leave oil. not sure why it dries to a gooey film in the top end after a heat cycle but it would sure be good for saws that sit for long periods of time. after seeing what the crew's here run i have been alot less picky about the oil i run. like alot less. i've even been running a little of the budget **** off the shelf at gas stations. it's hard to give up 32:1 though but i have been contemplating switching to 50:1 as the falling crews run that and their saws last way longer then anyone would expect.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> auto tune saws run like crap on 32:1 and 40:1


Mine doesnt...


----------



## Big_Wood

neither do mine.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my dads 545 runs better on 50:1 than 40:1 or even 32:1 but that was with motul 800.


----------



## bwalker

If Autotune can compensate for a 80 degree swing in temp, the differance between 32 and 50 should be no sweat.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Assuming the saw is tuned right, here is nothing wrong with the way that muffler looks.
> I think alot of you guys are just not accustomed to not having a saw tuned overly rich.



Thats a BIG assumption ................ I wonder if the plug is white too ?
I dont agree with you on the muffler, I have been doing this 2 cycle repair stuff since the early 80's ................. white mufflers are a precurser to an early death IMHO


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## Trx250r180

http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/z1tcw-injector-premix/
Looking for an oil with dye in it ,this says injector or premix ,is it a bad idea for saws ? Being recommended for marine use also ?
this other stuff has some red dye in it ,may be better ?
http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/l111-synthetic/


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## Moparmyway

You are really liking this Dumonde oil eh ?


----------



## redbull660

westcoaster90 said:


> when it comes to the lucas oil next time actually touch the piston and exhaust port with your finger. the oil dries to a goo when the saw cools kinda like what winterizing oil does to an outboard or any other 2 stroke. i've ran and been into a few saws now that have ran it and there is always oil in the case. if you wanna see a film of oil on your piston fire it up and just run it for a few seconds then pull muffler off the check again. lucas does leave oil. not sure why it dries to a gooey film in the top end after a heat cycle but it would sure be good for saws that sit for long periods of time. after seeing what the crew's here run i have been alot less picky about the oil i run. like alot less. i've even been running a little of the budget **** off the shelf at gas stations. it's hard to give up 32:1 though but i have been contemplating switching to 50:1 as the falling crews run that and their saws last way longer then anyone would expect.



not only did I touch them. After words I very carefully cleaned the exhaust port up etc with qtips and mineral spirits. Also cleaned up the muffler. So I could check things again with the next oil I try.

there was no goo on my piston...it was almost dry and I checked right away. Furthermore at posted earlier...I did it 3 times. Couple of times after cutting and once after letting it idle for a while.

Oil just isn't oil. Quality and the formulations vary GREATLY! - If I was running lucas or some of these other cheaper 2t oils...bet yer azz I'd be running 32:1. No doubt about it. Higher quality stuff motul, maxmia, klotz, belray I'd be running 45-50:1. (note: motul, klotz, belray have all said either I should run 50:1 or it's no problem to run their oils (800, h1r, r50) @ 50:1)

Right now I'm running Stihl Ultra 50:1 to double check how things "should" look and will take pics of that.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

what about the stihl orange bottle? i know it is a solid oil and many have ran it for years.


----------



## Big_Wood

redbull660 said:


> not only did I touch them. After words I very carefully cleaned the exhaust port up etc with qtips and mineral spirits. Also cleaned up the muffler. So I could check things again with the next oil I try.
> 
> there was no goo on my piston...it was almost dry and I checked right away. Furthermore at posted earlier...I did it 3 times. Couple of times after cutting and once after letting it idle for a while.
> 
> Oil just isn't oil. Quality and the formulations vary GREATLY! - If I was running lucas or some of these other cheaper 2t oils...bet yer azz I'd be running 32:1. No doubt about it. Higher quality stuff motul, maxmia, belray I'd be running 45-50:1.
> 
> Right now I'm running Stihl Ultra 50:1 to double check how things "should" look and will take pics of that.



might just be the 661 then cause my autotune husky's leave the goo on the piston. it's grosse the touch. clings the fingers like tree sap although in a much finer film. anyone can run what they like but one thing is for certain. if the fallers and shake blockers here can run generic **** with cheapest fuel available at 50:1 (in 661's to by the way) i don't think you or anyone else here have anything to worry about with whatever you choose. i am glad to have put my oil over thinking to rest. ran company mix in a few of my saws for 2 months and they are all just fine.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Thats a BIG assumption ................ I wonder if the plug is white too ?
> I dont agree with you on the muffler, I have been doing this 2 cycle repair stuff since the early 80's ................. white mufflers are a precurser to an early death IMHO


Huge assumption based on what I have seen here..
Never seen a white muffler but tan and dry is perfect. My Autotune Husky runs like this at 32:1 as it should.


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> You are really liking this Dumonde oil eh ?


Running the dtp with red label right now ,i am thinking it is overkill for a saw ,it is gold so hard to see in the fuel ,if the blue stuff would work in my saw ,i will run that ,looks sort of like the lucas stuff ,but who knows ,i do not understand the msds sheets


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> not only did I touch them. After words I very carefully cleaned the exhaust port up etc with qtips and mineral spirits. Also cleaned up the muffler. So I could check things again with the next oil I try.
> 
> there was no goo on my piston...it was almost dry and I checked right away. Furthermore at posted earlier...I did it 3 times. Couple of times after cutting and once after letting it idle for a while.
> 
> Oil just isn't oil. Quality and the formulations vary GREATLY! - If I was running lucas or some of these other cheaper 2t oils...bet yer azz I'd be running 32:1. No doubt about it. Higher quality stuff motul, maxmia, klotz, belray I'd be running 45-50:1. (note: motul, klotz, belray have all said either I should run 50:1 or it's no problem to run their oils (800, h1r, r50) @ 50:1)
> 
> Right now I'm running Stihl Ultra 50:1 to double check how things "should" look and will take pics of that.


I would disagree with you. Most oils out there are pretty good when used in the correct application. There are a few exceptions..but not many. A guy could really make his life simple by just running a FC/Fd oil and forget about it.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Huge assumption based on what I have seen here..
> Never seen a white muffler but tan and dry is perfect. My Autotune Husky runs like this at 32:1 as it should.


My 241c is tan also


----------



## KenJax Tree

westcoaster90 said:


> neither do mine.


Ditto


----------



## Big_Wood

i have never emailed any company customer service and got a knowledgeable response right off the bat. they usually have people who know how to fill out orders, handle complaints and know the very basics about the products the company sells. in my experience it takes a phone call and a request to talk to a tech to get any meaningful info and even then getting an actualy tech on the phone is hard.. can we all agree that? i do agree with redbull when it comes to oils not all being developed the same. satisfactory is satisfactory though. outside of AS belray, maxima, amsoil, etc........ are pretty well unheard of to be used in a chainsaw. most people will just buy the manufacturers oil or the cheapest thing they can. here there is a TCW3 oil at the local gas station called "sonic" that says on the back mix 100:1. IMO this oil is pretty generic and i would doubt very much that the company actually makes it. they also have another air cooled oil that says mix 50:1. the good thing is it's crazy cheap and plentyful. i have ran it in my saws recently at 32:1 and notice it actually pukes oil out the muffler at that ratio. is it just a dirty oil or am i using it in excess? lucas, stihl, and husky oil don't do that. i'm thinking i'm gonna try it at 50:1. one of my buddies lives on an island where i'm from and has been mixing the TCW3 sonic oil at 100:1 for his old yammy outboard and running that same mix in all of his saws for years. i try telling him he's nuts but his saws all have great compression and still run good. so not only is he running a TCW3 oil he's running it at a ratio that is heavily frowned upon here even when running amsoil. don't get me wrong though. i still would not recommend it nor use it myself at that ratio. his fuel looks like straight gas and i guarentee he cuts alot more wood then anyone here. the bullbucker i have a potential job with coming up september and i were having a ******** over a beer and i brought up oil mix and what he uses. his response was he didn't want to hear it and proceeded to tell a quick overview of the oil debate amongst the people he has and has had in the past work for him. he runs an oil called tech2000 in regular pump gas as his crew mix at 50:1. he pays as little as $2.89 a litre for the stuff and has always done his crew good so he continues to use it. my buddy who works for this guy already has 390 huskies that are 2 year old production falling saws that still run fine and have always ran that mix from day one.


----------



## Whitespider

jakewells said:


> *what about the stihl orange bottle? i know it is a solid oil and many have ran it for years.*


That's all I've used in 2-stroke *** (of any brand) for over 25 years... always mixed per label instructions (i.e., 40:1 during the late 80s and early 90s, then 50:1 after that when Stihl changed it).
I've never had an oil related problem with it... never even needed to clean a spark arrestor screen.
I believe the two concerns most often voiced are the fact that it ain't a synthetic (is synthetic really needed for small 2-stroke ***??) and the label states "meets or exceeds JASO FB" (which is pretty standard for a dino oil, typically it takes a synthetic or synthetic blend to meet the smoke and soap requirements of FC/FD).
I keep using it because it's always worked... and if it ain't broke, I see no reason to fix it... I don't mind a tiny bit of smoke, and the gasoline now-a-days has enough detergent in it I can't see where having more in the oil matters sour owl squat.
Although, admittedly, and if it matters, all of my 2-stroke *** is old enough to wear fully adjustable carburetors... I "tune by ear".
I do own a tach, but I only use it for setting governor limits on 4-stroke ***.
*


----------



## KenJax Tree

What about the Harley golf cart? How does that run on dino oil.....oh wait a minute....didn't you say....aahhh nevermind[emoji1]


----------



## redbull660

talked to klotz for a bit.

they were really big on the outside temp affecting what oil to use techniplate 50:1 (lessor viscosity) or R50 (heavier viscosity) and what mix ratio depending on what kind of load you putting on the saw. Said 50:1 for regular work...possibly 40:1 if I was pulling 36" bar all day. 

That all makes sense to me. But...


Interesting thing is - I've asked if I needed a heavier ratio with a ported saw. So far the answers have been

Klotz - no
amsoil - no
belray - pretty sure said no...will have to ask.
lucas - no

wtf - lol


----------



## the GOAT

Some fat guy that restocks shelves at walmart told me they've never had any problems with super tech at 50:1.


----------



## redbull660

the GOAT said:


> Some fat guy that restocks shelves at walmart told me they've never had any problems with super tech at 50:1.




got something against fat guys?


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> what about the stihl orange bottle? i know it is a solid oil and many have ran it for years.


Really poor value IMO.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

you feeling lucky today talking about fat people?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Whitespider said:


> That's all I've used in 2-stroke *** (of any brand) for over 25 years... always mixed per label instructions (i.e., 40:1 during the late 80s and early 90s, then 50:1 after that when Stihl changed it).
> I've never had an oil related problem with it... never even needed to clean a spark arrestor screen.
> I believe the two concerns most often voiced are the fact that it ain't a synthetic (is synthetic really needed for small 2-stroke ***??) and the label states "meets or exceeds JASO FB" (which is pretty standard for a dino oil, typically it takes a synthetic or synthetic blend to meet the smoke and soap requirements of FC/FD).
> I keep using it because it's always worked... and if it ain't broke, I see no reason to fix it... I don't mind a tiny bit of smoke, and the gasoline now-a-days has enough detergent in it I can't see where having more in the oil matters sour owl squat.
> Although, admittedly, and if it matters, all of my 2-stroke *** is old enough to wear fully adjustable carburetors... I "tune by ear".
> I do own a tach, but I only use it for setting governor limits on 4-stroke ***.
> *


the price has really jumped in recent years a 1 gallon mix bottle of it is 3.49 around here.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> talked to klotz for a bit.
> 
> they were really big on the outside temp affecting what oil to use techniplate 50:1 (lessor viscosity) or R50 (heavier viscosity) and what mix ratio depending on what kind of load you putting on the saw. Said 50:1 for regular work...possibly 40:1 if I was pulling 36" bar all day.
> 
> Interesting thing - I've asked if I needed a heavier ratio with a ported saw. So far the answers have been
> 
> Klotz - no
> amsoil - no
> belray - pretty sure said no...will have to ask.
> lucas - no
> 
> wtf - lol


Its likely none of these guys you have talked to know which end of a chainsaw is which. And they typically won't waste money having an engineer staff the tech line...


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> i have never emailed any company customer service and got a knowledgeable response right off the bat. they usually have people who know how to fill out orders, handle complaints and know the very basics about the products the company sells. in my experience it takes a phone call and a request to talk to


THIS! 
Yammy outboards btw spec a 100:1 mix ratio. However, when I ran a fleet of them commercially I always thought they maintained full power longer when ran at 50:1.


----------



## bwalker

My stock 562xp muffler outlet. Running Maxima K2 at 32:1.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> THIS!
> *Yammy outboards btw spec a 100:1 mix ratio*. However, when I ran a fleet of them commercially I always thought they maintained full power longer when ran at 50:1.



i know, i'm a marine tech LOL i to think that the 100:1 is a stretch for premix applications but the way those oil injections systems were working before they went to direct was pretty sweet. although it sure sucked when they failed LOL.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

yammy outboard never heard of such  i got a evinrude


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> My stock 562xp muffler outlet. Running Maxima K2 at 32:1.View attachment 425492


 When i run stock port ,my muffler is very dry ,triple ported with the saw running cooler get a little oil ,does this sound right ?


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> My stock 562xp muffler outlet. Running Maxima K2 at 32:1.View attachment 425492



man your chain needs attention

edit - the one tooth showing is hosed!


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> i know, i'm a marine tech LOL i to think that the 100:1 is a stretch for premix applications but the way those oil injections systems were working before they went to direct was pretty sweet. although it sure sucked when they failed LOL.


Some of those injection sytems didn't even pump at idle. Always worried about inadequate lubrication when trolling for hours on end, but they seemed to work ok.


----------



## Big_Wood

i run honda myself. they are picky in salt water applications and suffer some major block rot issues if not taken care of but man are they reliable.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> man your chain needs attention


No, it doesnt. Red oak always makes alot of dust. Especially the standing dead I have been cutting.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> yammy outboard never heard of such  i got a evinrude


Evinrude has about zero exposure in regards to the Canadian commercial use market.
I do like the Etech's.


----------



## svk

I worked at an OMC (pre dissolution) and Suzuki marine dealership in college. Hands down Suzuki made the best outboards. And I was a die hard Yamaha guy.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

evinrude and johnson was always a big deal here my little boat motor is nothing to brag about it is only 9.9hp.
seems to push the 14ft john boat pretty good.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> Some of those injection sytems didn't even pump at idle. Always worried about inadequate lubrication when trolling for hours on end, but they seemed to work ok.



they didn't pump much at idle but they all pumped. they mix before it even hits the carb. unless you talking about after they went direct. direct still pump at idle too but VERY little. i liked some of the older merc/mariner gear driven ones. they seemed to be most reliable anyways. the ones running on vacuum worked when they worked. i'm kinda done with 2 stroke outboards at this point. i had a 75 etec that cooked 2 cylinders and then another 90 etec that cooked 1. the 90 sure lasted a long time though.


----------



## Big_Wood

OMC absolutely ****'n sucks!!! LOL best thing was bombardier taking them over. now were getting into opinions so maybe cut it out otherwise we'll all be arguing in no time LOL


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my OMC doesn't suck but it will embarrass a lot of machines that do the same job.


----------



## svk

jakewells said:


> my OMC doesn't suck but it will embarrass a lot of machines that do the same job.
> View attachment 425504


I had one just like that!


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> my OMC doesn't suck but it will embarrass a lot of machines that do the same job.
> View attachment 425504


The best lawn boy mower was he one with a Suzuki motor...


----------



## redbull660

redbull660 said: ↑
man your chain needs attention



bwalker said:


> No, it doesnt. Red oak always makes alot of dust. Especially the standing dead I have been cutting.



well the one visible tooth looks screwed up to me!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

you talking about the M series with the oil injection system
i had one and sold it but the injection system was bypassed.


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> they didn't pump much at idle but they all pumped. they mix before it even hits the carb. unless you talking about after they went direct. direct still pump at idle too but VERY little. i liked some of the older merc/mariner gear driven ones. they seemed to be most reliable anyways. the ones running on vacuum worked when they worked. i'm kinda done with 2 stroke outboards at this point. i had a 75 etec that cooked 2 cylinders and then another 90 etec that cooked 1. the 90 sure lasted a long time though.


The best 90's have ran where Yami, three cylinder. They would easily go five years with out so much as a plug change when ran commercially.


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *What about the Harley golf cart? How does that run on dino oil.....oh wait a minute....didn't you say....aahhh nevermind*


You ain't gonna' let me forget that PITA... are ya?? 

Yeah... when I switched that to full synthetic I noticed the piston was really clean when I replaced it again... but it ain't made a difference on how long the piston lasts before the rings break. I'm still running full synthetic in it (Amsoil Interceptor) because for $9.90 per quart at the local fleet store it's the cheapest I can do unless I wanna' use some Pennzoil "yellow bottle" sludge... I don't use Pennzoil anything (but that's another story). I use Interceptor at 50:1... at 40:1 the muffler dripped a little oil on the shop floor.

The Harley golf car has a 250cc engine... I don't classify it as "small 2-stroke ***".



jakewells said:


> *the price has really jumped in recent years a 1 gallon mix bottle of it is 3.49 around here.*


I buy the bottles sized for 2½ gallons... if I remember correctly the last 6-pack was less than $15.00 at my local Stihl dealer (likely still have the receipt laying somewhere).
The little 1 gallon bottles are always the most expensive... in any brand.

Correction; I just checked... $11.75 for a 6-pack of 2½ gallon size bottles... and a 6-pack of the 1 gallon sized bottles is $7.45 (a single bottle is $1.25).
I'm not sure why it's so expensive where you're at jakewells??
*


----------



## svk

Whitespider said:


> Correction; I just checked... $11.75 for a 6-pack of 2½ gallon size bottles... and a 6-pack of the 1 gallon sized bottles is $7.45 (a single bottle is $1.25).
> I'm not sure why it's so expensive where you're at jakewells??
> *


Further to ship? It's more "exotic" where he's at?

Sorry but there's an awful lot of hype and hoopla about Amsoil up here.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> The best 90's have ran where Yami, three cylinder. They would easily go five years with out so much as a plug change when ran commercially.



i'm liking the honda's but i am keeping it smaller as i don't need big. got a 14' musling with a 50 honda right now. i mostly chose the 50 honda in this application because of weight. the 50 yammy would near sink the musling! LOL we are also in completely different areas. your motors are obviously not seeing the ocean in michigan. around here the cooling system rots out and pumps water into the oil pan before the motor dies LOL not always though. seems the mercs really hold up to salt water abuse.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Whitespider said:


> You ain't gonna' let me forget that PITA... are ya??
> 
> Yeah... when I switched that to full synthetic I noticed the piston was really clean when I replaced it again... but it ain't made a difference on how long the piston lasts before the rings break. I'm still running full synthetic in it (Amsoil Interceptor) because for $9.90 per quart at the local fleet store it's the cheapest I can do unless I wanna' use some Pennzoil "yellow bottle" sludge... I don't use Pennzoil anything (but that's another story). I use Interceptor at 50:1... at 40:1 the muffler dripped a little oil on the shop floor.
> 
> The Harley golf car has a 250cc engine... I don't classify it as "small 2-stroke ***".
> 
> 
> I buy the bottles sized for 2½ gallons... if I remember correctly the last 6-pack was less than $15.00 at my local Stihl dealer (likely still have the receipt laying somewhere).
> The little 1 gallon bottles are always the most expensive... in any brand.
> 
> Correction; I just checked... $11.75 for a 6-pack of 2½ gallon size bottles... and a 6-pack of the 1 gallon sized bottles is $7.45 (a single bottle is $1.25).
> I'm not sure why it's so expensive where you're at jakewells??
> *


because he is only dealer for 30 miles and he is a crook


----------



## Deleted member 83629

svk said:


> Further to ship? It's more "exotic" where he's at?
> 
> Sorry but there's an awful lot of hype and hoopla about Amsoil up here.


yeah it is exotic alright and most people don't have teeth here because it is exotic haha.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Really poor value IMO.*


How so??
I spend 78¢ on the oil for every gallon of fuel I mix... what do you spend on oil per gallon of fuel??
I buy a 6-pack of 6.4 oz bottles for 11.75, that works out to $9.79 per quart... what do you spend on a quart.
I don't haf'ta screw 'round with measuring; I pop the lid off the jug, pour it in the can, toss the jug, and fill the can with gas... done.
My stuff starts easy, runs good, and don't break... where's the poor value??
*


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> I expected my saw to look how it did, running 50:1 lucas, *not* 32:1. I expected way more oil at that rich of a ratio. (32:1)
> 
> I guess I thought if it looks that bad at 32:1, I don't want to even think about 50:1 !!! (what Lucas recommended when I contacted them)
> 
> IMO it(my saw) should have had more oil...a lot more oil given I was at 32:1.
> 
> 
> Is Lucas a bad oil? I dunno. I didn't like how it looked in my saw....even at 32:1.







redbull660 said:


> Not saying it's garbage. Or it can't be used at 32:1. But come on if you've got to use it at 32:1 ratio to get just "ok" effects.
> 
> My bottom line is this thread is meant to find the best oil. I'm not saying it's H1R. We have to test a bunch to find out.
> 
> But IMO lucas isn't even close to the "best". I mean...heck, I'd bet money that 2R outperforms Lucas and 2R is the same price!



Have you tested anything mechanically? Or are you just pulling a muffler and giving an opinion? Do you think that I'd put my paycheck on an "ok" oil? I'm still waiting for you to do an evaporation test or actually take a cylinder off and look at what actually matters.


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> Mtronic is optimal tune right? So at optimal tune it did what it did.
> 
> Carb'd you can make it look better than it is.


Optimal epa tune.


----------



## KenJax Tree

cuttinties said:


> Have you tested anything mechanically? Or are you just pulling a muffler and giving an opinion? Do you think that I'd put my paycheck on an "ok" oil? I'm still waiting for you to do an evaporation test or actually take a cylinder off and look at what actually matters.


If it doesn't say Bel Ray its not good enough


----------



## cuttinties

westcoaster90 said:


> when it comes to the lucas oil next time actually touch the piston and exhaust port with your finger. the oil dries to a goo when the saw cools kinda like what winterizing oil does to an outboard or any other 2 stroke. i've ran and been into a few saws now that have ran it and there is always oil in the case. if you wanna see a film of oil on your piston fire it up and just run it for a few seconds then pull muffler off the check again. lucas does leave oil. not sure why it dries to a gooey film in the top end after a heat cycle but it would sure be good for saws that sit for long periods of time. after seeing what the crew's here run i have been alot less picky about the oil i run. like alot less. i've even been running a little of the budget **** off the shelf at gas stations. it's hard to give up 32:1 though but i have been contemplating switching to 50:1 as the falling crews run that and their saws last way longer then anyone would expect.


I've told him umpteen times to do an evaporation test but obviously that's too difficult. I've mentioned pulling the top end but that's not going to happen. So until he looks past the exhaust port he won't see any benefits of Lucas or other oils. It'll be a very opinion heavy "research"


----------



## redbull660

cuttinties said:


> Have you tested anything mechanically? Or are you just pulling a muffler and giving an opinion? Do you think that I'd put my paycheck on an "ok" oil? I'm still waiting for you to do an evaporation test or actually take a cylinder off and look at what actually matters.



You quoted my posts and they address your questions. Sorry I poo poo'd your oil. But there are better options for the same price. I'm in search of the best oil. Not an oil that does the job. It looked fair at 32:1. It should of been wet at such a heavy ratio. The skirt was practically dry and I'm not the only one that reported this now.


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> You quoted my posts and they address your questions. Sorry I poo poo'd your oil. But there are better options for the same price. I'm in search of the best oil. Not an oil that does the job. It looked fair at 32:1. It should of been wet at such a heavy ratio. The skirt was practically dry and I'm not the only one that reported this now.



You haven't done an evaporation test. Nor have you pulled a cylinder. So once again you're giving nothing but opinions. Lucas tends to stick to the cylinder bore (you haven't shown one of those) more so than the piston. And no its not in mass quantities , but common sense would tell you this. If there's less on the piston and none in the muffler that must mean that the bottom end must be collecting oil? You have it in your head that the piston needs all of this oil. But I guess if that's the only place you look then that's all you have to judge your opinions off of. Your lack of ambition to actually get inside the saw and see what the oil is doing is pathetic. Don't offer to do a test if all you're doing is talking.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> How so??
> I spend 78¢ on the oil for every gallon of fuel I mix... what do you spend on oil per gallon of fuel??
> I buy a 6-pack of 6.4 oz bottles for 11.75, that works out to $9.79 per quart... what do you spend on a quart.
> I don't haf'ta screw 'round with measuring; I pop the lid off the jug, pour it in the can, toss the jug, and fill the can with gas... done.
> My stuff starts easy, runs good, and don't break... where's the poor value??
> *


I'm buying about the same amount of oil for only slightly less. But it's great oil, meeting the latest standards, not orange bottle sludge..


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> If it doesn't say Bel Ray its no good enough


Which is pretty funny....


----------



## redbull660

cuttinties said:


> You haven't done an evaporation test. Nor have you pulled a cylinder. So once again you're giving nothing but opinions. Lucas tends to stick to the cylinder bore (you haven't shown one of those) more so than the piston. And no its not in mass quantities , but common sense would tell you this. If there's less on the piston and none in the muffler that must mean that the bottom end must be collecting oil? You have it in your head that the piston needs all of this oil. But I guess if that's the only place you look then that's all you have to judge your opinions off of. Your lack of ambition to actually get inside the saw and see what the oil is doing is pathetic. Don't offer to do a test if all you're doing is talking.



Why don't you do an evaporation test. Why do I have to do all the testing here?

Saw ran better on 36:1 than 32:1 and 36:1 piston was even worse. Furthermore the saw ran even better than that on 45:1 h1r and the piston at least had oil on it. So once again I'm sorry I poo poo'd your oil. I didn't say it was garbage. I said there are obviously BETTER options. 

And beyond that I don't understand why you'd run a cheap injector oil when you could buy a higher quality oil like yamalube 2r for the same price. wtf!


----------



## RedFir Down

redbull660 said:


> It looked fair at 32:1. It should of been wet at such a heavy ratio.





redbull660 said:


> And beyond that I don't understand why you'd run a cheap injector oil when you could buy a higher quality oil like yamalube 2r for the same price.


Redbull your starting to sound alot like walker now.


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> Why don't you do an evaporation test. Why do I have to do all the testing here?
> 
> Saw ran better on 36:1 than 32:1 and 36:1 piston was even worse. Furthermore the saw ran even better than that on 45:1 h1r and the piston at least had oil on it. So once again I'm sorry I poo poo'd your oil. I didn't say it was garbage. I said there are obviously BETTER options.
> 
> And beyond that I don't understand why you'd run a cheap injector oil when you could buy a higher quality oil like yamalube 2r for the same price. wtf!


How many ounces of oil did it take to mix lucas at 36:1?


----------



## redbull660

RedFir Down said:


> Redbull your starting to sound alot like walker now.




geez you guys think i'm totally biased towards H1R. Drives me insane.

and what I said is the truth. 2R vs Lucas. Give me a break. 2R is obviously a higher quality oil. I'm not saying 2r is the best...but it sure would beat lucas AND for the same price.



cuttinties said:


> How many ounces of oil did it take to mix lucas at 36:1?



cuz I don't have a ratio right it's impossible to mix? 

Here's the math...

75 ml of lucas x 36 = 2700ml of gas.

2700ml gas = .713 gal


----------



## RedFir Down

Do you have any underwear that dont creep up your ass?


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> geez you guys think i'm totally biased towards H1R. Drives me insane.
> 
> and what I said is the truth. 2R vs Lucas. Give me a break. 2R is obviously a higher quality oil. I'm not saying 2r is the best...but it sure would beat lucas AND for the same price.


Oh and if you didn't know I've already done my research. I probably burn more fuel in a month than most will in a year so it matters to me what I'm using. When I use an oil I don't use a q tip and look through the exhaust port. I take cylinders off the saw. I look in the case and at the bearings. Until you actually take the cylinder off the saw you have no idea of what the oils are doing. The more of your HR1 astroglide super dooper luber that's on the piston the less that's in the bearings. And if you believe that's a good thing then you're not well versed in the world of longevity in 2 strokes.


----------



## redbull660

RedFir Down said:


> Do you have an underwear that dont creep up your ass?




You guys are the ones with your panties all up in a bunch cuz I didn't like your oil. You sure aren't open minded about anything either. 

All you've done is make excuses as to why there isn't oil on the piston skirt. Instead of well gee maybe he's on to something and maybe if we can buy other oils for the same price that are LIKELY higher quality...maybe we should give those a try and maybe they'll have oil in the bottom end and on the piston. Novel idea!




cuttinties said:


> Oh and if you didn't know I've already done my research. I probably burn more fuel in a month than most will in a year so it matters to me what I'm using. When I use an oil I don't use a q tip and look through the exhaust port. I take cylinders off the saw. I look in the case and at the bearings. Until you actually take the cylinder off the saw you have no idea of what the oils are doing. The more of your HR1 astroglide super dooper luber that's on the piston the less that's in the bearings. And if you believe that's a good thing then you're not well versed in the world of longevity in 2 strokes.



so yer telling me after all this reserach... *Lucas* the cheap injector oil is the BEST you could find for your saws??!?!?!? omg


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> geez you guys think i'm totally biased towards H1R. Drives me insane.
> 
> and what I said is the truth. 2R vs Lucas. Give me a break. 2R is obviously a higher quality oil. I'm not saying 2r is the best...but it sure would beat lucas AND for the same price.
> 
> 
> 
> cuz I don't have a ratio right it's impossible to mix?
> 
> Here's the math...
> 
> 75 ml of lucas x 36 = 2700ml of gas.
> 
> 2700ml gas = .713 gal


The jug has mixtures on it. Why you would even think 36:1 would be different enough to make it worth the effort. Evaporation test is a lot less complicated and you haven't done it yet.


----------



## redbull660

cuttinties said:


> The jug has mixtures on it. Why you would even think 36:1 would be different enough to make it worth the effort. Evaporation test is a lot less complicated and you haven't done it yet.



the difference between 32:1 and 36:1 is 12% less oil. 12% is huge in the world of statistics and probabilities. and btw 36:1 ran faster than 32:1. Figure that one out.


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> You guys are the ones with your panties all up in a bunch cuz I didn't like your oil. You sure aren't open minded about anything either.
> 
> All you've done is make excuses as to why there isn't oil on the piston skirt. Instead of well gee maybe he's on to something and maybe if we can buy other oils for the same price that are LIKELY higher quality...maybe we should give those a try and maybe they'll have oil in the bottom end and on the piston. Novel idea!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so yer telling me after all this reserach... *Lucas* the cheap injector oil is the BEST you could find for your saws??!?!?!? omg


It's not injector oil. And if you believe that higher price correlated to higher quality then ignorance truly is bliss.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> It's not injector oil. And if you believe that higher price correlated to higher quality then ignorance truly is bliss.


It actually is an injector oil that can be used as a premix oil,like all injector oils.


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> the difference between 32:1 and 36:1 is 12% less oil. 12% is huge in the world of statistics and probabilities. and btw 36:1 ran faster than 32:1. Figure that one out.


In your 661 whoopdee f#**in doo. You won't even pull the cylinder off the saw. So what actual information do you have that you feel makes it better than 32:1 or even 50:1 other than pure opinion and speculation?


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> It actually is an injector oil that can be used as a premix oil,like all injector oils.


But to classify it purely as a misuse and strictly injector oil is just Redbulls way to try and discredit someone who disagrees with his opinions. Until he pulls the cylinder or does an evaporation test he'll never see the benefits of it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

This should just stayed deleted[emoji1] 211 pages of nothing but hot air and meaningless "research"


----------



## Andyshine77

smokey7 said:


> Ok so i have to change my mind on lucas fd oil. I have ran 4 qts of it thru 2 of my saws a poulas 3314 42cc strato and echo 452vl at 32:1 with 89 no ethanol. It burns real clean but my pistons look real dry with little oil on them. I didnt believe redbull when he said thats how it looked on his saw. I had to pull a couple mufflers and see for myself. They are dry as a popcorn fart. So i am done with it for now, gotta find something else.


Lucas two cycle oil looks thin as water in the bottle, so I kept away from the stuff. IMHO Lucas products are of poor quality. Some testing has been done on their regular motor oils, the results were less than favorable.


----------



## cuttinties

Andyshine77 said:


> Lucas two cycle oil looks thin as water in the bottle, so I kept away from the stuff. IMHO Lucas products are of poor quality. Some testing has been done on their regular motor oils, the results were less than favorable.


While I disagree with your opinion on the quality of Lucas Semi synthetic, I appreciate the fact you said it's your personal opinion.


----------



## RedFir Down

redbull660 said:


> You guys are the ones with your panties all up in a bunch cuz I didn't like your oil. You sure aren't open minded about anything either.


Actually neither one of these statements are true, I have actually gotten some good laughs, a couple head shakes and maybe an eye roll out of this thread. (I thank you for that) 
Also I have never stated what oil I run/prefer in this thread or any where on this forum. For the record I have 7 different oils at the house I can choose from. Some your mentioning here, some your not.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> But to classify it purely as a misuse and strictly injector oil is just Redbulls way to try and discredit someone who disagrees with his opinions. Until he pulls the cylinder or does an evaporation test he'll never see the benefits of it.


I don't know if I would call the use of an inector/dual-purpose oil in a premix setup misuse, but I would call it a compromise. A compromise I have no interest in making.
What is an evaporation test?


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *I'm buying about the same amount of oil for only slightly less. But it's great oil, meeting the latest standards, not orange bottle sludge..*


Ummmmm.....
Are you avoiding answering my questions?? Or did you not understand their simplicity??

I spend 78¢ on the oil for every gallon of fuel I mix... _what do you spend on oil *per gallon of fuel*??_ (at your 32:1??)
I buy a 6-pack of 6.4 oz bottles for 11.75, that works out to $9.79 per quart... _what do you spend on a *quart*??_
I don't haf'ta screw 'round with measuring; I pop the lid off the jug, pour it in the can, toss the jug, and fill the can with gas... done.
My stuff starts easy, runs good, and don't break... _where's the poor value??_ (I mean... really... what more can I ask from the oil??)

And I'll add a couple more...
I get 12½ gallons of mixed fuel from a quart of oil... _how many gallons of fuel do you get from a *quart*??_ (at your 32:1??)
What's so great about the newest (Japanese or European) standards?? More friggin' detergent?? So what??
And who gives a cold owl crap what the Japanese or Europeans think oil should be anyway?? The newer standards are about a (supposedly) cleaner, greener environment... it ain't about your friggin' engine performance. If they wouldn't keep choking those engines back, they wouldn't need all that friggin' soap.
I'm buyin' oil, you're the fool buyin' more soap and thinkin' it's the latest 'n' greatest in oil technology... where your value in that??

It's no friggin' wonder you haf'ta mix it 32:1... it's likely ¼ soap... ya' gotta' make up for the lack of oil somehow.

Give me a break...
*


----------



## Big_Wood

RedFir Down said:


> Do you have an underwear that dont creep up your ass?



i don't have anything against anyone here but your post made me LMFAO!


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> I don't know if I would call the use of an inector/dual-purpose oil in a premix setup misuse, but I would call it a compromise.
> What is an evaporation test?


Premix sat in a glass container. Allow the fuel to sit undisturbed until all that's left is residue (oil mostly). What this allows you to see is: Does the oil separate? Does the oil become tacky? How much oil is lost in the process?


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Ummmmm.....
> Are you avoiding answering my questions?? Or did you not understand their simplicity??
> 
> I spend 78¢ on the oil for every gallon of fuel I mix... _what do you spend on oil *per gallon of fuel*??_ (at your 32:1??)
> I buy a 6-pack of 6.4 oz bottles for 11.75, that works out to $9.79 per quart... _what do you spend on a *quart*??_
> I don't haf'ta screw 'round with measuring; I pop the lid off the jug, pour it in the can, toss the jug, and fill the can with gas... done.
> My stuff starts easy, runs good, and don't break... _where's the poor value??_ (I mean... really... what more can I ask from the oil??)
> 
> And I'll add a couple more...
> I get 12½ gallons of mixed fuel from a quart of oil... _how many gallons of fuel do you get from a *quart*??_ (at your 32:1??)
> What's so great about the newest (Japanese or European) standards?? More friggin' detergent?? So what??
> And who gives a cold owl crap what the Japanese or Europeans think oil should be anyway?? The newer standards are about a (supposedly) cleaner, greener environment... it ain't about your friggin' engine performance. If they wouldn't keep choking those engines back, they wouldn't need all that friggin' soap.
> I'm buyin' oil, you're the fool buyin' more soap and thinkin' it's the latest 'n' greatest in oil technology... where your value in that??
> 
> It's no friggin' wonder you haf'ta mix it 32:1... it's likely ¼ soap... ya' gotta' make up for the lack of oil somehow.
> 
> Give me a break...
> *


I spend under $10 for several different oils. And they are modern formulations, which Orange bottle is not. It's also not just detergents... Fc/Fd oils have a cap on detergents so they use less of them in concert with higher quality base oils that burn cleaner. Cleaner engines have better ring mobility which makes them last longer.
Essentially you are paying the same price for cheap crap. IF your happy with that rock on..
Some people can actually chew gum and walk so using a ratio right isn't a difficult task.


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Premix sat in a glass container. Allow the fuel to sit undisturbed until all that's left is residue (oil mostly). What this allows you to see is: Does the oil separate? Does the oil become tacky? How much oil is lost in the process?


That wouldn't tell me a damn thing I didn't already know. IE how much oil is in the mix.


----------



## RedFir Down

westcoaster90 said:


> i don't have anything against anyone here but your post made me LMFAO!


Neither do I Shane. I just find it interesting how the OP will throw a fit similar to that of a child when someone posts something he doesn't agree with or something that goes against his "discoveries".

Lets get back to the topic though, dont want to ruffle any more feathers.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *I spend under $10 for several different oils. And they are modern formulations, which Orange bottle is not.*


So... I guess you are avoiding answering my questions.



> *It's also not just detergents... Fc/Fd oils have a cap on detergents so they use less of them in concert with higher quality base oils that burn cleaner.*


Bu‼$h!t

Specifications for Two Stroke Oil

NMMA TC-W3 – two cycle water-cooled, third generation. TC-W3 obsoletes TC-W & TC-WII. Oils with this spec do not use metal based additives, and are ashless. _This is an outboard specific spec_.
API TC – only API spec established for two cycle engines. It regulates lubricity, detergency, ash content & pre-ignition. Oils with this spec are typically using metal based, ash producing additives.
JASO FA – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
JASO FB – increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.
JASO FC – *lubricity and initial torque* requirements *same as FB*, however *far higher detergency*, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.
JASO FD - *same as FC* with *far higher detergency requirement*.
ISO-L-EGB – *same* tests and requirements *as JASO FB*.
ISO-L-EGC – *same* tests *and slightly higher detergency* requirements (piston varnish) *as JASO FC*.
ISO-L-EGD – *same* tests and requirements *as JASO FD*.
Here's your reference link... and I have more if it ain't good enough for ya'...
www.rm-e.no/media/two-stroke-oil.pdf

You're buyin' soap... for a chainsaw that you've likely opened up the muffler and maybe even ported??
You're a damn fool... you've bought into the propaganda... you're believing in friggin' magic.
You ain't runnin' it in a choked up Japanese moped with a pencil diameter cat exhaust system...

Use whatever makes your willie stiff... I don't care for owl crap what it is, and I won't put ya' down for it... but I'll correct misinformation and BS every time I see it.
*


----------



## redbull660

RedFir Down said:


> Neither do I Shane. I just find it interesting how the OP will throw a fit similar to that of a child when someone posts something he doesn't agree with or something that goes against his "discoveries".
> 
> Lets get back to the topic though, dont want to ruffle any more feathers.




fit? cuz I defend my results? cuz I don't take the bs...For example - like people who can't read and only see what they want to see and then say that I said this or that when I didn't say that at all. Yeah that's a bit frustrating ...like dealing with a pissed off woman. Her " you said blah blah blah" and your like wtf lady...I didn't say that at all. THEN they keep doing it. So yeah it's kind of annoying.

Or the guys who talk about variables and problems that don't really influence the test results as they imagine..., yet they have never run a test themselves to actually know.

No discoveries here - I'm just posting results and my opinions. So instead of doing a test to verify/confirm. Some guys get all wet in the middle when they don't like said results, so they turn into 12yr olds and start name calling. Or misquoting you or any number of little childish acts to try and discredit the test.

Don't like my test results??? Then do the same test and prove em wrong. No one so far is willing to do that.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I haven't even used Lucas is about 2 months....i've used a few gallons of Super M and a gallon of Yamalube and now im using Super M again. Lucas has never let me down.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> So... I guess you are avoiding answering my questions.
> 
> 
> Bu‼$h!t
> 
> Specifications for Two Stroke Oil
> 
> NMMA TC-W3 – two cycle water-cooled, third generation. TC-W3 obsoletes TC-W & TC-WII. Oils with this spec do not use metal based additives, and are ashless. _This is an outboard specific spec_.
> API TC – only API spec established for two cycle engines. It regulates lubricity, detergency, ash content & pre-ignition. Oils with this spec are typically using metal based, ash producing additives.
> JASO FA – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
> JASO FB – increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.
> JASO FC – *lubricity and initial torque* requirements *same as FB*, however *far higher detergency*, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.
> JASO FD - *same as FC* with *far higher detergency requirement*.
> ISO-L-EGB – *same* tests and requirements *as JASO FB*.
> ISO-L-EGC – *same* tests *and slightly higher detergency* requirements (piston varnish) *as JASO FC*.
> ISO-L-EGD – *same* tests and requirements *as JASO FD*.
> Here's your reference link... and I have more if it ain't good enough for ya'...
> www.rm-e.no/media/two-stroke-oil.pdf
> 
> You're buyin' soap... for a chainsaw that you've likely opened up the muffler and maybe even ported??
> You're a damn fool... you've bought into the propaganda... you're believing in friggin' magic.
> You ain't runnin' it in a choked up Japanese moped with a pencil diameter cat exhaust system...
> 
> Use whatever makes your willie stiff... I don't care for owl crap what it is, and I won't put ya' down for it... but I'll correct misinformation and BS every time I see it.
> *


They cap sulfated ash..which limits how much detergent you can us and detergancy refers to cleanliness, not actual detergent concentration. AND I don't need to Google that. Nice try though...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> fit? cuz I defend my results? cuz I don't take the bs...For example - like people who can't read and only see what they want to see and then say that I said this or that when I didn't say that at all. Yeah that's a bit frustrating ...like dealing with a pissed off woman. Her " you said blah blah blah" and your like wtf lady...I didn't say that at all. THEN they keep doing it. So yeah it's kind of annoying.
> 
> Or the guys who talk about variables and problems that don't really influence the test results as they imagine..., yet they have never run a test themselves to actually know.
> 
> No discoveries here - I'm just posting results and my opinions. So instead of doing a test to verify/confirm. Some guys get all wet in the middle when they don't like said results, so they turn into 12yr olds and start name calling. Or misquoting you or any number of little childish acts to try and discredit the test.
> 
> Don't like my test results??? Then do the same test and prove em wrong. No one so far is willing to do that.


You don't like anything that challenges your preconceived notions and get pissy when anyone questions your tests or methods. Just how I see it.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> You don't like anything that challenges your preconceived notions and get pissy when anyone questions your tests or methods. Just how I see it.



I think my last post addresses everything you've said here. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-212#post-5368701


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I think my last post addresses everything you've said here. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-212#post-5368701


I am sure you really believe that. I am also sure it's 180 from reality.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *...detergancy refers to cleanliness, not actual detergent concentration.*


 See what I mean 'bout believin' in magic??

"Detergency" does not refer to "cleanliness"... in simple terms it refers to the strength of the available detergent (surfactant).
If you want your detergent solution to have more strength (detergency), you add more detergent... you add more surfactants.
Surfactants reduce the surface tension between two liquids, or between a liquid and a solid... there is only one possible way to increase the "detergency" of a detergent solution, whether it be a water or an oil solution... you must add more surfactants... you must add more detergent.

Yes, some surfactants are more powerful than others... because they are more pure and/or concentrated... meaning they contain more friggin' soap‼

Nice try though...
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> See what I mean 'bout believin' in magic??
> 
> "Detergency" does not refer to "cleanliness"... in simple terms it refers to the strength of the available detergent (surfactant).
> If you want your detergent solution to have more strength (detergency), you add more detergent... you add more surfactants.
> Surfactants reduce the surface tension between two liquids, or between a liquid and a solid... there is only one possible way to increase the "detergency" of a detergent solution, whether it be a water or an oil solution... you must add more surfactants... you must add more detergent.
> 
> Yes, some surfactants are more powerful than others... because they are more pure and/or concentrated... meaning they contain more friggin' soap‼
> 
> Nice try though...
> *


Google is failing you...again. Hint, the detergent in two cycle oil is mettalic in nature..Sure as hell ain't soap and not by a long shot.


----------



## brockhaskins

I get a good laugh out of some of this. "I ran 5 tanks or ten tanks then looked in my exhaust port blah blah". I've ran hundreds and hundreds of tanks through my saws and the only time I take my mufflers off is to drill a hole in them when I first get the saw.


----------



## brockhaskins

Oh I'll use almost any oil 40:1.


----------



## Big_Wood

brockhaskins said:


> I get a good laugh out of some of this. "I ran 5 tanks or ten tanks then looked in my exhaust port blah blah". I've ran hundreds and hundreds of tanks through my saws and the only time I take my mufflers off is to drill a hole in them when I first get the saw.



the real question is, what do you run for oil? LOL i don't remove my muffler for nothing either. just mod them and then maybe once a year or 2 i get bored on a snowy or rainy day so take them off to slap a fresh coat of paint on them. not really needed but what the hell when you got a day off and it's snowing out.


----------



## bwalker

brockhaskins said:


> I get a good laugh out of some of this. "I ran 5 tanks or ten tanks then looked in my exhaust port blah blah". I've ran hundreds and hundreds of tanks through my saws and the only time I take my mufflers off is to drill a hole in them when I first get the saw.


5-10 doesn't tell you much of anything..


----------



## brockhaskins

westcoaster90 said:


> the real question is, what do you run for oil? LOL i don't remove my muffler for nothing either. just mod them and then maybe once a year or 2 i get bored on a snowy or rainy day so take them off to slap a fresh coat of paint on them. not really needed but what the hell when you got a day off and it's snowing out.



Used stihl ultra a lot and lucas. But have ran all sorts of oil whatever is at the gas station type of deal.


----------



## Big_Wood

brockhaskins said:


> Used stihl ultra a lot and lucas. But have ran all sorts of oil whatever is at the gas station type of deal.



that's the way i've been going lately. my buddies are running the cheapest **** with regular fuel at 50:1 and doing way more cutting then me and are getting their money's worth out of them for sure.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hi Shane[emoji4] i read the saws for sale thread[emoji23]


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Hint, the detergent in two cycle oil is mettalic in nature..Sure as hell ain't soap and not by a long shot.*


Good lord man... stop with the deflections.

We all know that a detergent is not a soap... but we all (or most of us) call it by the name soap all the time. Your kitchen cookware is washed in a detergent... but I'll bet you call it "dish soap" don't ya'?? Your cloths are washed in a detergent solution... but I'll bet you call it "laundry soap" don't ya'??

Detergents (surfactants) all accomplish the same thing, weather-or-not they are metallic in nature matters not for cold owl squat... and the slang term for detergent is "soap". So if ya' feel better about buying "detergent" rather than "soap" for mixing with your chainsaw fuel... fine... I'll be sure and use the proper term "detergent" from-here-on-out.

Personally, I prefer oil.
*


----------



## brockhaskins

westcoaster90 said:


> that's the way i've been going lately. my buddies are running the cheapest **** with regular fuel at 50:1 and doing way more cutting then me and are getting their money's worth out of them for sure.



yeah I know a guy who will use anything for oil. I've literally seen him mix a little motor oil into gas and run his saw. Surprisingly the saw seemed to run fine. He still runs it and still uses whatever for oil.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Good lord man... stop with the deflections.
> 
> We all know that a detergent is not a soap... but we all (or most of us) call it by the name soap all the time. Your kitchen cookware is washed in a detergent... but I'll bet you call it "dish soap" don't ya'?? Your cloths are washed in a detergent solution... but I'll bet you call it "laundry soap" don't ya'??
> 
> Detergents (surfactants) all accomplish the same thing, weather-or-not they are metallic in nature matters not for cold owl squat... and the slang term for detergent is "soap". So if ya' feel better about buying "detergent" rather than "soap" for mixing with your chainsaw fuel... fine... I'll be sure and use the proper term "detergent" from-here-on-out.
> 
> Personally, I prefer oil.
> *


Your the one deflecting and you don't have a clue what your talking about, so much so its comical.


----------



## RedFir Down

redbull660 said:


> fit? cuz I defend my results? cuz I don't take the bs...For example - like people who can't read and only see what they want to see and then say that I said this or that when I didn't say that at all. Yeah that's a bit frustrating ...like dealing with a pissed off woman. Her " you said blah blah blah" and your like wtf lady...I didn't say that at all. THEN they keep doing it. So yeah it's kind of annoying.
> 
> Or the guys who talk about variables and problems that don't really influence the test results as they imagine..., yet they have never run a test themselves to actually know.


The only thing I would suggest is dont take it so personal and get emotional about it.


redbull660 said:


> Don't like my test results??? Then do the same test and prove em wrong.


Prove what? First off I dont have any thing to prove, especially regarding this topic. 


redbull660 said:


> No one so far is willing to do that.


That is because most everyone here knows they dont have the knowledge and resources to thoroughly test these oils like your wanting to do, yourself included.


----------



## Whitespider

Heck bwalker... I ain't the one believing in magic.
You're in luck though... the good lord watches over fools.
*


----------



## bwalker

RedFir Down said:


> The only thing I would suggest is dont take it so personal and get emotional about it.
> 
> Prove what? First off I dont have any thing to prove, especially regarding this topic
> 
> That is because most everyone here knows they dont have the knowledge and resources to thoroughly test these oils like your wanting to do, yourself included.


That sums it up about right. Especially the last sentance.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Heck bwalker... I ain't the one believing in magic.
> You're in luck though... the good lord watches over fools.
> *


The only fool is the one that pays good money for crap...


----------



## blsnelling




----------



## KenJax Tree

This is more appropriate


----------



## cuttinties




----------



## NWCoaster

Just to add to the confusion, I will post my personal results I have had with 2 stroke oils in my saws. Started with the Stihl HP orange bottle, ran it in my 026 at 50:1 for the last 16 years with no issues.... the piston rings and piston skirt were very clean and shiny, cylinder walls still have cross hatching, may have lost 5 lbs of compression over that time - small amount of black loose carbon in the muffler can, no dampness. Switched to Stihl Ultra a couple years ago, works equally well, smells a little perfumey, did not notice any performance change but it actually pulls over easier and starts easier in very cold weather. In the last few months I have switched to Lucas full synthetic. ( Disclaimer, I hate overpriced boutique products that don't actually work any better than much cheaper alternatives, ie: Lucas and Amsoil) . Incidentily, I tried using a few of the Lucas products just because they were on sale or some last chance miracle fix that was supposed to cure various ailments...... surprisingly, they worked very well).
So the results I have had with the Lucas full synthetic at 40:1 have been equally impressive in my opinion. The saw runs snappier than with the Ultra, virtually no smoke, no stink, the inside of the muffler can is slightly tacky( Not wet) and it has removed a lot of the carbon that used to be in the exhaust port and muffler. This stuff seems to burn super clean with no wetness on the exhaust side at all. As someone else mentioned, the oil on the piston is a very thin layer but is extremely slippery feeling, almost like a super slick coating, but not wet. I think this is due to the oil combusting very clean and seemingly adding power. I am not an expert and think that anyone can use whatever they want for oil at whatever ratio they want.... I have no information on any of the other oils. But I really like the Lucas full synthetic at any price point. (32 bux for a gallon).


----------



## Whitespider




----------



## KenJax Tree

Isn't the full synthetic Lucas a snowmobile oil?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> View attachment 425600


No!! BS....i tested Pine Sol 40:1 and everything cleaned faster Muphy's is crap


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> Isn't the full synthetic Lucas a snowmobile oil?


Yes they call it a snowmobile oil, but is formulated to be run as an injector oil or premix. ( I surmise that it is similar to the semi synthetic but that they have used full synthetic oils instead) It has a very low pour point for that use. So far it doesn't seem to realize that it isn't being put into snowmobiles... Lol.


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *No!! BS....i tested Pine Sol 40:1...*


Yeah... but Murphy's can double as a bar oil‼
*


----------



## NWCoaster

Whitespider said:


> Yeah... but Murphy's can double as a bar oil‼
> *


Its actually recommended to clean EDPM rubber roofs on RV's by the company that makes them also... good ****!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> Yeah... but Murphy's can double as a bar oil‼
> *


Good point


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> How many ounces of oil did it take to mix lucas at 36:1?


36/50 = 0.72 gallons per 2.6oz of oil for a 36:1. Or 3.55 ozs of oil per gallon (128/36 = 3.55).


----------



## Justsaws

Enjoyable read so far, for the most part. I have used many gallons of Lusas oil at 32:1 and have not noticed any negitives. At $8.00 a quart it is the best easy choice for me to find. Not brand loyal at all and run lots of different brand's products, the biggest complaint being the smell of some of them. If it costs more than $8.00 a quart I would not bother with it unless the Lucas is unavailible. Having said that I am currently running another batch of Stihls white bottled oil. No complaints about it, when the last 6 pack of 5 gallon mix bottles is opened I will shop around and see what is next.

Do folks still see the volume of stuck rings that they used to see?

Why so hung up on easily visible oil film after the engine has stopped running?


----------



## cuttinties

Ron660 said:


> 36/50 = 0.72 gallons per 2.6oz of oil for a 36:1. Or 3.55 ozs of oil per gallon (128/36 = 3.55).


It wasn't so much a matter of how. More so of why?


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> It wasn't so much a matter of how. More so of why?


I agree but thought I'd put it out there if someone ever considered it.


----------



## Ron660

jakewells said:


> what about the stihl orange bottle? i know it is a solid oil and many have ran it for years.


Calumet Oil Refinery in Shreveport LA provides the base oil for the Stihl orange bottle according to the Engineer I had a meeting with today. They also provide products for petroleum jelly, WD-40, 3-1 oil, and several Lucas products.


----------



## Big_Wood

KenJax Tree said:


> Hi Shane[emoji4] i read the saws for sale thread[emoji23]



so what do you think? i've gotten postive feedback from many others through PM already. i'm always willing to hear positive or negative feedback. send me a PM. i gotta say i've added a ton of people on the ignore list today and it cleaned up to forum a bit for me. i swore i'd never use it but heck does it ever work LOL.


----------



## Big_Wood

brockhaskins said:


> yeah I know a guy who will use anything for oil. I've literally seen him mix a little motor oil into gas and run his saw. Surprisingly the saw seemed to run fine. He still runs it and still uses whatever for oil.



last year around this time i landed a real nice stihl 08s that had sat forever. i didn't care much about it but before i actually dipped into it i decided to try start it. fired right up even after all those years sitting on the old fuel and puffed smoke like you wouldn't believe. the whole area around my house was just blue nasty burnt smokey oil. no mosquito's for miles LOL i swear you could pore oil down the throat of a large V8 and it wouldn't smoke like that. no one should have to endure that while running their saw. i was never around for the days they used motor oil in their mix so had no idea it was that bad.


----------



## KenJax Tree

128oz in a gallon.......divide by.....40(40:1)....equals 3.5 oz per gallon
Divide how many oz. of fuel you have by the ratio you want (32, 40, 50, etc) and that will tell you have may oz per gallon you need


----------



## mdavlee

I'm disappointed there's not 3 more pages since I last checked in.


----------



## KG441c

Real easy. 4oz per gallon


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Assuming the saw is tuned right, here is nothing wrong with the way that muffler looks.
> I think alot of you guys are just not accustomed to not having a saw tuned overly rich.



You stated this ^^^^^^^



Moparmyway said:


> Thats a BIG assumption ................ I wonder if the plug is white too ?
> I dont agree with you on the muffler, I have been doing this 2 cycle repair stuff since the early 80's ................. white mufflers are a precurser to an early death IMHO



I replied with this ^^^^^^



bwalker said:


> Huge assumption based on what I have seen here..
> Never seen a white muffler but tan and dry is perfect. My Autotune Husky runs like this at 32:1 as it should.



Now you are totally contradicting your previous post.
I wish you would take a minute to think about your postings before you hit the "post reply" button ........... I am sure that you know what you are trying to say, but it definitely comes across confusing at best, and sometimes downright contradictory.


----------



## nk14zp

Trx250r180 said:


> Dump the oil in the fuel tank of your dodge and burn it again ,tail pipe has a weird odor ,but get free fuel for your truck ,guy that crushes my cars does this ,he filters it somehow and has to cut it with a little gas


I do it.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> My stock 562xp muffler outlet. Running Maxima K2 at 32:1.View attachment 425492


How do you like K2?


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> How do you like K2?


Like it alot thus far. Running it in my bikes as well.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> You stated this ^^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> I replied with this ^^^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are totally contradicting your previous post.
> I wish you would take a minute to think about your postings before you hit the "post reply" button ........... I am sure that you know what you are trying to say, but it definitely comes across confusing at best, and sometimes downright contradictory.


I said I have never seen a white muffler, but that tan is perfect. Where is the contradiction?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I said I have never seen a white muffler, but that tan is perfect. Where is the contradiction?



Post # 4275
I already spelled it out for you.
Click on the little arrows that ride along with the quotes if you need more details


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Post # 4275
> I already spelled it out for you.
> Click on the little arrows that ride along with the quotes if you need more details


You must be thinking that the muffler Pictured was white? It's not, it's tan and as I said looked fine if it was tuned right...JEEZ!


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> You must be thinking that the muffler Pictured was white? It's not, it's tan and as I said looked fine if it was tuned right...JEEZ!









This aint white ?


----------



## CR500

Moparmyway said:


> This aint white ?


Sometimes camera flash can make tan look white, there are so many variables such as lighting and what have you

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Moparmyway

CR500 said:


> Sometimes camera flash can make tan look white, there are so many variables such as lighting and what have you
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


True ................ but the rest of the rust looking areas and the tan area to the rear of the white area clued me in to my opinion


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> This aint white ?


Looks tan to me..
As I said, many are no accustomed to a properly tuned two stroke..


----------



## Trx250r180

Is that ash buildup on the lh side of the muffler ? with the little cracks in the soot ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Is that ash buildup on the lh side of the muffler ? with the little cracks in the soot ?


Yes..


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Yes..


Is this a random image ? or do you know the oil brand ?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Is this the longest oil thread ever on the forum ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Is this a random image ? or do you know the oil brand ?


I don't believe the OP said.
That sort of buildup gets in the exhaust port too..which is why Jaso caps sulfated ash and as a result detergents..


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I don't believe the OP said.
> That sort of buildup gets in the exhaust port too..which is why Jaso caps sulfated ash and as a result detergents..


Was wondering about it flaking off and gouging a piston ,i would not want that stuff in my muffler with chance going into the exhaust port .


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Was wondering about it flaking off and gouging a piston ,i would not want that stuff in my muffler with chance going into the exhaust port .


If its on the muffler, its likely its also on the head and piston crown too.


----------



## Whitespider

SAWMIKAZE said:


> *Is this the longest oil thread the forum ?*


I ain't sure if it's the longest... but it's got more swollen nut sacks than a peanut farm on Columbus Day.
*


----------



## Trx250r180

That carbon leaves nasty scratches in the piston skirts if it gets between the cylinder and the piston .


----------



## smokey7

Hello all i am the guy witb the light tan muffler. The saw was gotten with i believe to be sae 30 oil mix for 2 cycle oil. It smoked really bad for a good while. I have ran somewhere between 6-8 qts of oil thru it. Starting with penzoil aircooled for about 2 qts then citgo air cooled for a qt or 2 then its been on lucas fd for almost 4 qts. All at 32:1. This saw was super black and dirty with way more carbon everywhere. When i got it i scrubbed the muffler of all loose stuff with a wire brush, cleaned the port and started running it. It is tuned to a lite 4 stroke free rev and cleans up as soon as you touch wood. It is tuned real sharp. I am worried that with the tight tune i need a better oil or go alot richer. The plug is a light tan just like the muffler, just a little darker at the bottom of plug.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> Hello all i am the guy witb the light tan muffler. The saw was gotten with i believe to be sae 30 oil mix for 2 cycle oil. It smoked really bad for a good while. I have ran somewhere between 6-8 qts of oil thru it. Starting with penzoil aircooled for about 2 qts then citgo air cooled for a qt or 2 then its been on lucas fd for almost 4 qts. All at 32:1. This saw was super black and dirty with way more carbon everywhere. When i got it i scrubbed the muffler of all loose stuff with a wire brush, cleaned the port and started running it. It is tuned to a lite 4 stroke free rev and cleans up as soon as you touch wood. It is tuned real sharp. I am worried that with the tight tune i need a better oil or go alot richer. The plug is a light tan just like the muffler, just a little darker at the bottom of plug.


If its tuned as you say that plug wouldn't scare me. It's impossible to tell much from looking at a plug that's been ran for a long time. If you want to read a plug you must do a plug chop and then.inspect the area where the insulator meets the metal shell.


----------



## bwalker

This one was ran for quit a few years and was actually on the rich side.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Real easy. 4oz per gallonView attachment 425656


 I might try 4.5 ozs (28:1) in the summer to keep the mosquitos away.


----------



## smokey7

See that plug you showed looks more like the color i am used to. I am aware that a plug chop is needed with a new plug. I wish i had a tach to know how high it is revving. It is tuned to best performance, with a lite 4 stroke, i am just nervous from the less or different residual film and the light tan muff.


----------



## Moparmyway

smokey7 said:


> Hello all i am the guy witb the light tan muffler. The saw was gotten with i believe to be sae 30 oil mix for 2 cycle oil. It smoked really bad for a good while. I have ran somewhere between 6-8 qts of oil thru it. Starting with penzoil aircooled for about 2 qts then citgo air cooled for a qt or 2 then its been on lucas fd for almost 4 qts. All at 32:1. This saw was super black and dirty with way more carbon everywhere. When i got it i scrubbed the muffler of all loose stuff with a wire brush, cleaned the port and started running it. It is tuned to a lite 4 stroke free rev and cleans up as soon as you touch wood. It is tuned real sharp. I am worried that with the tight tune i need a better oil or go alot richer. The plug is a light tan just like the muffler, just a little darker at the bottom of plug.



Too light for me for sure.
I dont mind leaving a little power on the table by having a little extra fuel and a little extra oil.
I have seen way too many motors look like that out the exhaust, and their internals are dry and heated.
Just my opinion, but I aint cookie cutting or timing my cuts. I would rather run a little fat and let the chain make the cut go quicker


----------



## smokey7

Yea i agree i am rethinking my tune. I have gone almost a 1/8 turn fatter and going to run it again today. I hope she gets a bit more color and oil film after i finish my last gallon of mix. I have 5oz of lucas left i am thinking of trying 24:1 also.


----------



## Moparmyway

smokey7 said:


> Yea i agree i am rethinking my tune. I have gone almost a 1/8 turn fatter and going to run it again today. I hope she gets a bit more color and oil film after i finish my last gallon of mix. I have 5oz of lucas left i am thinking of trying 24:1 also.


Tuning a little more fat (like you did) will also bring a little more oil film along with it. 
You might not need to go to 24:1, but you need to be comfy with how your equipment runs.


----------



## smokey7

I agree with that it runs phenomenal now it just doesn't seem to leave a lot of oil behind. It definatly got a blubber now after the tune change. I hope i see what i like soon.


----------



## Trx250r180

How long did it take to do that chain ?


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> How long did it take to do that chain ?


Eh, just a stroke or two here and there .............. done in a few minutes


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Eh, just a stroke or two here and there .............. done in a few minutes



I did the rh side of a .404 converting to square full comp ,then hung it on the nail ,am used to skip or semi skips ,106 dl full comp takes forever . ,converted one to 10 degrees for milling on the usg ,that went pretty quick ,square ,not so much .


----------



## nitehawk55

Running an oil mixture too rich can be harmful too , the carb jet can't handle it and can actually make the saw run lean . I think 40:1/45:1 with a good oil is plenty .


----------



## Whitespider

Moparmyway said:


> *...I aint cookie cutting or timing my cuts. I would rather run a little fat...*


That's always been my thinkin' with small 2-stroke ***, tune 'em just a touch "fat"... that's likely why I'm not afraid of a 50:1 mix.
Just my opinion, but I'm bettin' way more failures can be attributed to a lean tune than not enough oil in the mix... b'sides, extra oil can't compensate for a lean tune, it don't work that way.
Using *** ain't a competition where the the first finisher wins a million dollar purse... ain't no good reason to run 'em on the edge.
*


----------



## Trx250r180

To the guys running 50 to 1 in your stock saws ,am sure it is fine ,my saws are time bombs if i do that from the extra heat from higher compression ,being modded ,here is a 460 piston 50 to 1 stihl ultra off one of my "personal" saws i broked once ,after going 32 to 1 have had no failures . This saw was still starting up ,and had 225 psi with this piston in it .


----------



## smokey7

Yea i suppose i was on the edge. I backed it off now. That 460 looks wet on the bottom end for 50:1


----------



## nitehawk55

Oil wasn't the problem it's covered with it !

Modding changes all that .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Running an oil mixture too rich can be harmful too , the carb jet can't handle it and can actually make the saw run lean . I think 40:1/45:1 with a good oil is plenty .


Carbs can handle it just fine...


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Oil wasn't the problem it's covered with it !
> 
> Modding changes all that .


It ran too lean..


----------



## Whitespider

Trx250r180 said:


> *To the guys running 50 to 1 in your stock saws ,am sure it is fine ,my saws are time bombs if i do that from the extra heat from higher compression ,being modded ,here is a 460 piston 50 to 1 stihl ultra off one of my "personal" saws i broked once ,after going 32 to 1 have had no failures.*


Maybe I'm just missing something that can be explained to me... maybe not...
But adding more oil ain't gonna' reduce internal engine temperature enough to matter... and it can even increase it (depending). The oil is there for lubrication, the engine parts need only enough lubrication... anything more than enough is wasted. That piston, rod and crank in your picture look plenty "wet"... there appears to be plenty enough oil.

Running a 2-stroke lean will cause it to get hot... a whole friggin' bunch more hot. If I pulled that engine apart and saw that piston my first thought would be "lean", not oil starvation. I'd be thinking lean from either an improper tune or ethanol blended fuel (if I could see the top of the piston I _might_ favor one cause over the other). Typically, in my experience anyway, adding more oil means opening the high side carb screw a little to make them run right... meaning the extra oil forces you to run the engine richer (more fuel), which is what's gonna' cool internal temperatures, not the oil... meaning ya' likely could have just run the thing a touch "fatter" in the first place and not added the extra oil.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something... but...
When the gas/oil/air mixture enters the crankcase the gas vaporizes, the oil don't. Now you have tiny droplets of oil in there... like a fog, which collects and builds up on the internal parts. Moving parts, such as the crank, sling off any extra, throwing even more of it on places like the cylinder walls and such. What little oil that does find it's way into the combustion chamber doesn't do much for lubrication, it's either burned or just blown out the exhaust (4 stroke engines don't have any oil introduced into the combustion chamber and they survive). It's the vaporizing gasoline that carries away most of the heat (like your evaporating sweat)... running the engine lean means a lot less heat is carried away.

Extra oil can't compensate for a lean tune... it don't work that way.
*


----------



## bwalker

An engine properly tuned and running more oil doesn't run any leaner..
There is a such a thing as oil migration times. As load and rpm climb the time an oil stays within the motor shorten. Load it high enough for long enough with not enough oil and bad crap happens.
Maxima did a decent study on this year's ago using oil marked with radioactive isotopes.


----------



## bwalker

And nothing is wrong with running a touch fat. Two strokes make the most torque under load with slightly fat tuning. The problem is guys equate a touch fat with wet mufflers and black plugs. That's much more than a touch fat.
It's funny that guys will argue which saw in a class is the fastest then tune so rich any advantage goes by by. Another reason Mtronic and Autotune are a great idea. The average wood tick is perplexed by adjusting a carb and properly tuning a two stroke motor.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I did the rh side of a .404 converting to square full comp ,then hung it on the nail ,am used to skip or semi skips ,106 dl full comp takes forever . ,converted one to 10 degrees for milling on the usg ,that went pretty quick ,square ,not so much .


It sure does !
Lately I can only time to get to a few teeth at any one time. 
The last 104 DL .404 I did took me a few weeks, but that was RS to square filed, gullets cleaned, and rakers evened

The 106 DL is for an 088/880 with a 3002 mount ................. Are you sure you arent doing the 104DL for the 3003 mount ?


----------



## Trx250r180

I


Moparmyway said:


> It sure does !
> Lately I can only time to get to a few teeth at any one time.
> The last 104 DL .404 I did took me a few weeks, but that was RS to square filed, gullets cleaned, and rakers evened
> 
> The 106 DL is for an 088/880 with a 3002 mount ................. Are you sure you arent doing the 104DL for the 3003 mount ?



Yes it was 104 dl ,i shortened them to 95 dl for a 32 inch bar ,but sharpened before i shortened ,first couple teeth trial end error till i see angles i like so i cull those out ,after happy with angles , they all get the same grind ,stuff does not sharpen the same as 3/8 i am used too ,cutters are taller ,i has about 10 min in the rh side converting round to square ,am used to 5 min doing both sides lol .


----------



## Trx250r180

Whitespider said:


> Maybe I'm just missing something that can be explained to me... maybe not...
> But adding more oil ain't gonna' reduce internal engine temperature enough to matter... and it can even increase it (depending). The oil is there for lubrication, the engine parts need only enough lubrication... anything more than enough is wasted. That piston, rod and crank in your picture look plenty "wet"... there appears to be plenty enough oil.
> 
> Running a 2-stroke lean will cause it to get hot... a whole friggin' bunch more hot. If I pulled that engine apart and saw that piston my first thought would be "lean", not oil starvation. I'd be thinking lean from either an improper tune or ethanol blended fuel (if I could see the top of the piston I _might_ favor one cause over the other). Typically, in my experience anyway, adding more oil means opening the high side carb screw a little to make them run right... meaning the extra oil forces you to run the engine richer (more fuel), which is what's gonna' cool internal temperatures, not the oil... meaning ya' likely could have just run the thing a touch "fatter" in the first place and not added the extra oil.
> 
> Like I said, maybe I'm missing something... but...
> When the gas/oil/air mixture enters the crankcase the gas vaporizes, the oil don't. Now you have tiny droplets of oil in there... like a fog, which collects and builds up on the internal parts. Moving parts, such as the crank, sling off any extra, throwing even more of it on places like the cylinder walls and such. What little oil that does find it's way into the combustion chamber doesn't do much for lubrication, it's either burned or just blown out the exhaust (4 stroke engines don't have any oil introduced into the combustion chamber and they survive). It's the vaporizing gasoline that carries away most of the heat (like your evaporating sweat)... running the engine lean means a lot less heat is carried away.
> 
> Extra oil can't compensate for a lean tune... it don't work that way.
> *


 
I am not sure why the piston got so hot ,maybe a cold seize ? who knows ,a new piston and cyl was put on ,and i ran it for 2 years before got rid of it ,ran 32 to 1 h1r the whole time ,a stock saw i think has 150-160 comp ,modded 220-230 so there has to be more heat produced to make more power ,now i warm up my saws more before i load them down ,gives me a reason to piss rev them


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Like it alot thus far. Running it in my bikes as well.


Thoughts on motul 800 off road vs K2?


----------



## Flatie

Ron660 said:


> I agree but thought I'd put it out there if someone ever considered it.


I know you like 800 2t but have you ever run K2 Ron?


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Thoughts on motul 800 off road vs K2?


I prefer K2 thus far, especially in a saw. Should know something concrete on it by the end of the summer when my bike has 45 hours on the current piston. Will tear the saw down at the same time for inspection.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I am not sure why the piston got so hot ,maybe a cold seize ? who knows ,a new piston and cyl was put on ,and i ran it for 2 years before got rid of it ,ran 32 to 1 h1r the whole time ,a stock saw i think has 150-160 comp ,modded 220-230 so there has to be more heat produced to make more power ,now i warm up my saws more before i load them down ,gives me a reason to piss rev them


Cold seize usually is a four corner seizure. Yours seized hard on the exhaust side, which is from a lean condition.


----------



## Trx250r180

Looked for the k2 at the bike shop ,they did not stock it at the 2 in town here ,just 927 and super m ,is the k2 fairly new ? or 2 strokes are just the minority now ? They had the yamalube ,that stuff is cheap ,like 10 bucks a quart .


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Cold seize usually is a four corner seizure. Yours seized hard on the exhaust side, which is from a lean condition.


I always thought 4 corners also ,who knows what it was ,a new top and it was fine after that ,must have had an air leak somewhere


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I always thought 4 corners also ,who knows what it was ,a new top and it was fine after that ,must have had an air leak somewhere


Air leak would do it.


----------



## Hedgerow

Trx250r180 said:


> I always thought 4 corners also ,who knows what it was ,a new top and it was fine after that ,must have had an air leak somewhere


Yup.. Sumthin weren't right...


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Looked for the k2 at the bike shop ,they did not stock it at the 2 in town here ,just 927 and super m ,is the k2 fairly new ? or 2 strokes are just the minority now ? They had the yamalube ,that stuff is cheap ,like 10 bucks a quart .


Its been out for 10 years or so. It was originally developed for Kart racing. As the "K" stands for kart.
Two strokes are definantly in a minority now.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> It ran too lean..



Geebus !! , if it ran lean it would be dry of oil . How could a mixture be lean with that much oil coating everything .


----------



## Ray Bell

bwalker said:


> Its been out for 10 years or so. It was originally developed for Kart racing. As the "K" stands for kart.
> Two strokes are definantly in a minority now.


Maybe especially in Port Angeles. Kind of the end of the U.S.


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Geebus !! , if it ran lean it would be dry of oil . How could a mixture be lean with that much oil coating everything .


You haven't torn down many seized motors I take it.


----------



## bwalker

Ray Bell said:


> Maybe especially in Port Angeles. Kind of the end of the U.S.


Its not available near me either. I buy it online.


----------



## Trx250r180

nitehawk55 said:


> Geebus !! , if it ran lean it would be dry of oil . How could a mixture be lean with that much oil coating everything .


That engine was still running,the wet oil is newer then the damage,I saw that after pulling the muffler cover off and tore it down,amazingly it still ran with that score


----------



## Whitespider

nitehawk55 said:


> *Geebus !! , if it ran lean it would be dry of oil . How could a mixture be lean with that much oil coating everything.*


"Lean" (or "rich") applies to the air/fuel ratio, not the gasoline/oil ratio.
"Lean" means too much air for the amount of fuel (or not enough fuel for the amount of air).
In other words... you could be drowning the engine with oil, but it could still be running "lean".
*


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> Its been out for 10 years or so. It was originally developed for Kart racing. As the "K" stands for kart.
> Two strokes are definantly in a minority now.



Sadly learning about 2 strokes is a lost art lol, I still like learning about them and maybe one day the knowledge will pay off.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> "Lean" (or "rich") applies to the air/fuel ratio, not the gasoline/oil ratio.
> "Lean" means too much air for the amount of fuel (or not enough fuel for the amount of air).
> In other words... you could be drowning the engine with oil, but it could still be running "lean".
> *


You will seize them at 16:1 if the air/ fuel ratio is lean. The seized motors I have torn down always had oil in the lower end.


----------



## Ron660

Flatie said:


> I know you like 800 2t but have you ever run K2 Ron?


Never have tried it.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> You haven't torn down many seized motors I take it.



Yes I have and I have a good understanding of how 2 cycle engines work and what doesn't .
You carry on with your valuable knowledge on here , I'll just sit back and listen .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Yes I have and I have a good understanding of how 2 cycle engines work and what doesn't .


Not as good as you think, if you believe lean seized motors don't have oil coating the bottom end.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> Not as good as you think, if you believe lean seized motors don't have oil coating the bottom end.



I'm not just talking the bottom end , that piston is wet with oil unless it was put on it afterward .


----------



## Trx250r180

nitehawk55 said:


> I'm not just talking the bottom end , that piston is wet with oil unless it was put on it afterward .


See post 4333


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I prefer K2 thus far, especially in a saw..



Can you go into detail as to why you preferr K2 ?
Are you seeing something, hearing it run differently, tuning better, etc ...... ?


----------



## bwalker

Are you asking why I'm refer K2 to 800 or why I like K2 in general.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Are you asking why I'm refer K2 to 800 or why I like K2 in general.


All of the above 
For me its between these two. 40:1 with 800 or 32:1 with K2... Tough decision.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Are you asking why I'm refer K2 to 800 or why I like K2 in general.


I am with flatie on this .......all of the above............. please go into details and answer both questions you posed


----------



## mdavlee

K2 works. I've used a couple quarts of it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I would use K2 100% of the time if it was more cost effective for me.


----------



## Whitespider

nitehawk55 said:


> *I'm not just talking the bottom end , that piston is wet with oil unless it was put on it afterward.*


nitehawk,
The terms "lean" and "rich" have nothing to do with oil, or the amount of it.
*


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> nitehawk,
> The terms "lean" and "rich" have nothing to do with oil, or the amount of it.
> *


Air/fuel mixture is where its at[emoji6]


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> K2 works. I've used a couple quarts of it.


 Did you get a chance to look at the lower end for lubrication compared to R50 or 800? I saw that K2 has a viscosity of 13.5 at 100C.


----------



## Trx250r180

Has anyone noticed any performace difference between the brands ? Better throttle response ?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> Has anyone noticed any performace difference between the brands ? Better throttle response ?


Not in reality[emoji1]


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I am with flatie on this .......all of the above............. please go into details and answer both questions you posed


As I have said I can't go into detail for certain until I get a bunch more run time on it.
Based on what I have seen thus far with tuning, how clean it burns, lack of smell I think it's a pretty decent oil. Although as I mentioned above its really too early to tell much till full internal tear down are done.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I would use K2 100% of the time if it was more cost effective for me.


I suspect what it's going to come dome to for me is the question of if K2 is worth almost double the price and the hassle of mail ordering vs Yam 2R which I can buy local. The only other high end oil available local is Motul 800 and I really don't have any interest in running it.


----------



## nitehawk55

Whitespider said:


> nitehawk,
> The terms "lean" and "rich" have nothing to do with oil, or the amount of it.
> *


It does have to do with the amount of oil that will lube the engine . If it's set lean it receives less , rich...more .


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> The only other high end oil available local is Motul 800 and I really don't have any interest in running it.


What do you have against 800-2T? You may have already said, but I don't remember.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I suspect what it's going to come dome to for me is the question of if K2 is worth almost double the price and the hassle of mail ordering vs Yam 2R which I can buy local. The only other high end oil available local is Motul 800 and I really don't have any interest in running it.


 
Ever use this?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I suspect what it's going to come dome to for me is the question of if K2 is worth almost double the price and the hassle of mail ordering vs Yam 2R which I can buy local. The only other high end oil available local is Motul 800 and I really don't have any interest in running it.


 
What changed your mind with the 800? This is an older statement you posted on an AS topic named (Two types of Stihl 2-stroke oil?). " K2 and Motul 800 are two of the absolute best oils you could use. You pay for it though as they tend to be priced considerably higher than Mx2t".


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> I suspect what it's going to come dome to for me is the question of if K2 is worth almost double the price and the hassle of mail ordering vs Yam 2R which I can buy local. The only other high end oil available local is Motul 800 and I really don't have any interest in running it.



I can already tell you that it won't be worth the PIA factor or money and you'll probably switch back to what you get locally.
Just a guess... Even if it were a little better.. How much better does a person really need in a freaking chainsaw??


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 425909
> 
> 
> Ever use this?


Guy at the bike shop showed me this ,says Ktm recommends it for the new bikes .


----------



## bwalker

O


blsnelling said:


> What do you have against 800-2T? You may have already said, but I don't remember.


Lots of mettalics in it and its end point is such that it's hard to get complete combustion with the loads I am dealing with. It's great oil when used in the right applications.


----------



## Trx250r180

Hedgerow said:


> I can already tell you that it won't be worth the PIA factor or money and you'll probably switch back to what you get locally.
> Just a guess... Even if it were a little better.. How much better does a person really need in a freaking chainsaw??


Hater


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> I can already tell you that it won't be worth the PIA factor or money and you'll probably switch back to what you get locally.
> Just a guess... Even if it were a little better.. How much better does a person really need in a freaking chainsaw??


The chainsaws are the least of my concerns. I have a two stroke street bike and a mx bike that are much more important. Without those two bikes I would run Citgo Aircooled semi syn at 32:1 and not lose sleep


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> What changed your mind with the 800? This is an older statement you posted on an AS topic named (Two types of Stihl 2-stroke oil?). " K2 and Motul 800 are two of the absolute best oils you could use. You pay for it though as they tend to be priced considerably higher than Mx2t".


My mind hasn't changed. 800T was and is a fine oil, when used right. If I was like Dave and milling alot I would use it no doubt.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 425909
> 
> 
> Ever use this?


No, but have used the red bottle Motorex and it's good stuff.


----------



## RedFir Down

bwalker said:


> Citgo Aircooled semi syn


Where do you buy this? I did a quick search the other day and couldn't find it.


----------



## bwalker

At any Citgo station.


----------



## RedFir Down

bwalker said:


> At any Citgo station.


Thanks. We dont have any of those stations around here, come to think of it I dont think I have ever seen one. There website station locator is about as clear as mud.


----------



## Hedgerow

RedFir Down said:


> Thanks. We dont have any of those stations around here, come to think of it I dont think I have ever seen one. There website station locator is about as clear as mud.


He's from da UP eh?? Dey gottem up der all over...


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> O
> 
> Lots of mettalics in it and its end point is such that it's hard to get complete combustion with the loads I am dealing with. It's great oil when used in the right applications.


With that said i assume you mean you will get spooge. Looking at Ron660's pictures of motul its does appear to burn very clean. Mettalics are of concern you feel?


----------



## Big_Wood

Thought I'd come in here and throw this up. Sold my 346 and the buyer wanted piston pics. Been running 40:1 Lucas for 25 tanks before this. As you can see she is wet and it is not tuned rich at all. piston also has a gooey film on it like i stated earlier in the thread. Perfect lean to scream tune LOL I think it's safe to take anything to do with oil with a grain of salt on the internets although that doesn't mean we can't beat the hell out of the topic LOL


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> With that said i assume you mean you will get spooge. Looking at Ron660's pictures of motul its does appear to burn very clean. Mettalics are of concern you feel?


Yes, the dreaded black drool.. and yes mettalics are a concern, especially since I don't need the capabilities of that oil.


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> Thought I'd come in here and throw this up. Sold my 346 and the buyer wanted piston pics. Been running 40:1 Lucas for 25 tanks before this. As you can see she is wet and it is not tuned rich at all. piston also has a gooey film on it like i stated earlier in the thread. Perfect lean to scream tune LOL I think it's safe to take anything to do with oil with a grain of salt on the internets although that doesn't mean we can't beat the hell out of the topic LOL


Looks pretty rich to me though with just those pics it's hard to tell.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> Looks pretty rich to me though with just those pics it's hard to tell.



the point of the pic is that lucas leaves an oil film behind and i assure you it's not rich LOL there are many that can't properly tune a saw because of worry of things going boom. i'm not one of those people. i tune them lean so they scream. makes a saw more usable IMO. i mean not to lean by any means but even the most tune savy saw hacks wouldn't be able to hear it 4 stroke.


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Yes, the dreaded black drool.. and yes mettalics are a concern, especially since I don't need the capabilities of that oil.


Ok dokes. Why are the mettalics such a concern? dirty? I was leaning toward 800 but I may very well give K2 a crack


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> the point of the pic is that lucas leaves an oil film behind and i assure you it's not rich LOL there are many that can't properly tune a saw because of worry of things going boom. i'm not one of those people. i tune them lean so they scream. makes a saw more usable IMO. i mean not to lean by any means but even the most tune savy saw hacks wouldn't be able to hear it 4 stroke.


Thw such and such oil is "dry" comments are a bunch of BS IMO.
The amount of residual oil is dictated by the oil ratio your using and at what state the motor was in when it was shut off. 
I said your saws appears rich because the exhaust port is bare metal and full of oil. How much run time was on it and what was not run like prior to shut down?


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Ok dokes. Why are the mettalics such a concern? dirty? I was leaning toward 800 but I may very well give K2 a crack


Because they lead to buildup, but more importantly they are a great ignition source for pre ignition. Rather not deal with that in something that's not torn down every weekend.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> Thw such and such oil is "dry" comments are a bunch of BS IMO.
> The amount of residual oil is dictated by the oil ratio your using and at what state the motor was in when it was shut off.
> I said your saws appears rich because the exhaust port is bare metal and full of oil. How much run time was on it and what was not run like prior to shut down?



i got the saw from a guy here who got it from a tree service in NC. cylinder was toasty but cleaned it up anyways. then was digging through walkers cylinder pile and found this one already ported. didn't even look used and they sold it to me cheap. sold the original cleaned up one for same amount i paid. was a budget build so threw a used piston in and away i went LOL. it's gotta have 25 tanks at least on it since assembly with that cylinder.. i understand what you mean by residual oil dictated by the ratio used but i assure you. it was running 40:1 lucas and was not tuned rich. my judgement is lucas is good oil and i figure even at 50:1 it would lube satisfactory.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> what state the motor was in when it was shut off.


Lets say that you are running your saw through 30 large bucking rounds.
You finish your last cut.
Do allow your saw to;

A. Idle for a few minutes to cool down, then shut the saw off with the kill switch
B. Rev it up to WOT and shut off the saw with the kill switch
C. Idle for a few minutes, then WOT for a second and while at WOT, shut off the saw with the kill switch
D. Hold WOT through the cut, keep WOT as you pull the saw out of the now cut wood and hit the kill switch while holding WOT
E. Something totally different


----------



## nitehawk55

Way too much attention to brand/type of oil here than need be . If it's a known quality 2 cycle oil suitable for use in saws and other *** it will work fine at recommended mix ratios . Nothing wrong with adding a bit extra to give a little extra lube under HD use but you don't want to over do it either . If all if right with the engine , carb settings , cooling surfaces then a 40:1-50:1 mix is fine . For those milling I could see bumping it to 32:1 .
The fuel/air mix enters the engine and the oil is distributed through the engine to lube the internal parts . Not rocket science as it's being made out .


----------



## redbull660

Email to Motul... What should I ask him next?

*Redbull - *

I'm wondering about using the 710 or 800 off road 2t oils in my chainsaw. It's a Stihl 661 91cc 7.5hp runs 13,500 off load WOT and approx 10,000 on load. (in wood) Generally the saw is idling for a little bit and then will run 10 sec-1min long cuts at WOT and then idling for a bit until the next cut. Idle = ~2800rpm.

1. would you recommend 710 or 800 or another motul 2t oil for this application? If so would you suggest a ratio to use?

2. Is there a temp that would be too cold to use my saw at...using 710 or 800? I mix with 92 octane ethanol free
---------------------------------------------------

*Motul - *

The product I would recommend for your chain saw is our 800 2T off-road. Although as I am sure you are aware 800 2T was not designed for use in chain saws, but it does work very well. The EsterCore package in the 800 2T offers maximum protection for your engine, especially at high RPM's. 

The ratio I would recommend would be a 50:1 ratio. If that ratio is a little too rich you can go to a 60:1 ratio. Since it is a Premix only product you can run the ratios a little leaner then an Injector/Premix product like the 710 2T.

As for a temp that would be too cold to use your saw at we do not have an exact degree number. I do know that we have a lot of customers in Canada and other colder regions that use the 800 2T in their chainsaws and snowmobiles without issue. We just recommend that if it is cold outside that you properly warm up your engine before use.
Regards,

Jon Muto
Marketing Coordinator
Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767

*T* 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | *F* 909-625-2697 | *Cell *909-538-2091

*[email protected]*|www.motul.com
---------------------------------------------------

*Redbull - 
*
I will try some at 50:1. What signs should I look for to know if I should go richer or leaner? I know a few other guys that suggest running 800 at 32:1 in my saw? That seems pretty rich? Would you have any thoughts on going that rich?

The online store I'll be buying 800 from also has 710. Is it worthwhile to try 710? Or is it just not suitable for a saw? What differences if any should I expect to see? What ratio would you recommend for 710? 

I see the viscosity of stihl ultra (my current 2t oil) is 8.9 @ 100c' ...I see 800 is around 15. Should I be concerned about this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Motul- *

The best way to check if the mixture is too lean or too rich would be to look at the spark plug. If the spark plug is dark in color then it is too rich and if the spark plug is a white-ish color it is too lean. The spark plug should be a light brown when running the right mixture. 

The 32:1 mixture to me seems pretty rich, especially with the viscosity of our 800 2T premix. That ratio would be better suited for our 710 2T product. I would recommend sticking with our 800 2T product as it will provide more protection for your high RPM saw.

As far as the viscosity of the 800 2T there is no reason to be concerned. The viscosity of the product is the reason why you can run it at a ratio of 50:1 or even leaner. It is thicker because it is a premix only product, not a premix/injector product. Thinning additives are added to a Premix/Injector product so the oil can pass through the injector hoses if used in that application.

The 800 2T burns very clean, your saw engine will thank you.

Regards,

Jon Muto
Marketing Coordinator
Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767

*T* 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | *F* 909-625-2697 | *Cell *909-538-2091

*[email protected]*|www.motul.com


----------



## Whitespider

Moparmyway said:


> *You finish your last cut.
> Do allow your saw to;*


Ummmm... I just shut it off when I'm done with it... same as everything else (shrug)
*


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> *Motul - *
> 
> 
> The ratio I would recommend would be a 50:1 ratio. If that ratio is a little too rich you can go to a 60:1 ratio.


That is a factor of tuning, not mix ratio. The way I understand it, mix ratio should be determined be observing the amount of oil left in the crankcase.


----------



## KenJax Tree

So if the viscosity is higher and you can run a leaner mix,( off road 50:1-60:1) then why do they recommend 33:1-25:1 for Road Racing even though the viscosity is higher than Off Road? 

These marketers only know what they read, pretty much like us. If you're not talking to the guy that mixed the formula in the lab you're not gonna get the answers you're looking for.


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> So if the viscosity is higher and you can run a leaner mix,( off road 50:1-60:1) then why do they recommend 33:1-25:1 for Road Racing even though the viscosity is higher than Off Road?


Because of its intended market...ultra high RPM road racing motorcycles.


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> So if the viscosity is higher and you can run a leaner mix,( off road 50:1-60:1) then why do they recommend 33:1-25:1 for Road Racing even though the viscosity is higher than Off Road?
> 
> These marketers only know what they read, pretty much like us. If you're not talking to the guy that mixed the formula in the lab you're not gonna get the answers you're looking for.



I would imagine it has something to do with higher heat generated. Just like with a ported saw. Ported saw generates more heat so you need more oil.

I think a lot of guys have thought that it was the extra force and extra compression that required more oil. But every one of these oil guys i've asked "does porting the saw require more oil?" has said if your porting, your opening things up thus your allowing more gas into the system and thus more oil so you really don't need it. *However*, you are generating more heat and so you do probably need more oil. And that is what people have found is adding more oil to the ported saws alleviates the breakage problems.



blsnelling said:


> That is a factor of tuning, not mix ratio. The way I understand it, mix ratio should be determined be observing the amount of oil left in the crankcase.




Well if you guys want me to ask him something... Come up with some questions. Out of *all* the people I've emailed and called, this Motul guy (Jon) and Andrew at Belray seem to be the only people who actually really know a thing or two.


*Here is my next question for him: *

why would 800 provide more protection over 710? And in theory would/should that hold true even if 710 was run at 32:1 and 800 was run at 50:1?


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I would imagine it has something to do with higher heat generated. Just like with a ported saw. Ported saw generates more heat so you need more oil.


I would suspect it has more to do with the RPMs they turn, and the effects that has on oil migration from the bottom end.


----------



## Flatie

redbull660 said:


> I would imagine it has something to do with higher heat generated. Just like with a ported saw. Ported saw generates more heat so you need more oil.
> 
> I think a lot of guys have thought that it was the extra force and extra compression that required more oil. But every one of these oil guys i've asked "does porting the saw require more oil?" has said if your porting, your opening things up thus your allowing more gas into the system and thus more oil so you really don't need it. *However*, you are generating more heat and so you do probably need more oil. And that is what people have found is adding more oil to the ported saws alleviates the breakage problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you guys want me to ask him something... Come up with some questions. Out of *all* the people I've emailed and called, this Motul guy (Jon) and Andrew at Belray seem to be the only people who actually really know a thing or two.
> 
> 
> *Here is my next question for him: *
> 
> why would 800 provide more protection over 710? And in theory would/should that hold true even if 710 was run at 32:1 and 800 was run at 50:1?



Yes tell him you've heard that the metallics in 800 off road lead to buildup... and as such would cause a great ignition source for pre ignition. 
Has he heard of this?
Why is 800 not jaso -fd approved?


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> I would suspect it has more to do with the RPMs they turn, and the effects that has on oil migration from the bottom end.



that would be a good question to ask of andrew @ belray and this Jon @ motul. 

...does porting a saw require more oil because the higher RPM's generate more heat? Or because the higher RPM's effects the oil migration from the bottom end?


----------



## porsche965

blsnelling said:


> I would suspect it has more to do with the RPMs they turn, and the effects that has on oil migration from the bottom end.



Both.


----------



## blsnelling

Just for reference,it's not uncommon for a ported with saw to see 12K in the cut.


----------



## Moparmyway

Flatie said:


> Yes tell him you've heard that the metallics in 800 off road lead to buildup... and as such would cause a great ignition source for pre ignition.



I am curious about that as well ................ although in everything that I have run 800 off road in, there MUST be a problem as I dont see any buildup and havent had any pre-ignition problems yet. I wonder how much longer I can run it before these problems develop


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> Both.


What's up John?


----------



## porsche965

Just trying to learn something is all


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> Just trying to learn something is all


Please remind me what the 100C viscosity is of Amsoil. This thread is much too long to dig through.


----------



## porsche965

Not sure on that one but I think in the 11s


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> Not sure on that one but I think in the 11s


How about Ultra?


----------



## redbull660

all of em...

oil info... make up, viscosity, flash point


*
Stihl Ultra *- http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
Base Oil: Trimethylolpropane ComplexEster 80-90%
additive mixture - 0-20%

Flash point 432F
Visc @40c = 49
Visc @ 100c = 8.5
*------------------

Husky - *http://www.husqvarna.com/ddoc/huse/huse2010_euenapen/huse2010_euenapen_cms-s002_.pdf
Highly refined Mineral Oil - greater than 40%
distillate (petroleum) - 15-25%
polyolefin phenol - greater than 5%

Flash Point - 167F
Visc @ 40C = 48
Visc @ 100c = unknown
*----------------------------------*

*Yamalube *- https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

additive mixture = 16-20%
Pour Depressant mixture = <.5%
Solvent = 10-15%
Base Oil = 54-75%
Blue Dye = <.5%

Flash Point = 255F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 8.5
*------------------------------*

*Klotz R50* - https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/MSDS/MSDS-2014-KL-102.pdf

"Not applicable" ???????

Flash Point = 550F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 19.1
*------------------------------*

*Motul 710 2T* - http://www.motovan.com/img/marketing/pdf/Motul/MSDS eng/710 2T.pdf
https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/38/710 2T (GB).pdf?1324312083

Naphtha petroleum hydrotreated - less than 30%

nothing else shown

Flash Point - 190 F
Visc @ 40c = 46
Visc @ 100c = 8.9
*------------------------------------*


*Motul 800 2t OFF road - https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77816/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420014*

msds - http://www.quickfds.com/out/17287-57965-18051-016468.pdf 

Polyamine Succinimide - 2.5 - 10%
2,6-DI-TERT-BUTYLPHENOL 0-2.5%
Alkarylsulfonate - 0-2.5%

Flash point = 485F
Visc @ 40c = 120
Visc @ 100c = 15.5

*
----------------------------------------

Belray H1R - http://www.belray.com/sites/default...ter 2t engine oil item 99280 us_english_0.pdf

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-h1-r-racing-100-synthetic-ester-2t-engine-oil


"This product considered not hazardous..."

note - contacted belray for approx make up
base oil: Proprietary Ester blend = ~90%
additive mixture = ~10%

Flash Point = 395F
Visc @ 40c = 121
Visc @ 100c = 12.4
-----------------------------------------

Amsoil - http://www.amsoil.com/msds/atp.pdf
Synthetic Ester = 30-60%
Butnene homopolymer - 30-60%
Solvent naphtha = 10-30%
n,n di sec butylphenylenediamine .1%

Flash Point = 216F
Visc @ 40c = 71
Visc @ 100c = 11.1
-----------------------------

Lucus - http://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_2-Cycle-Snowmobile-Oil.pdf
Solvent naphtha petroleum = 10-30%
1 decene, homopolymer hydyrogenated = 10-30%

doesn't show anything else.

Flash Point = 175F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.5
--------------------------------

Maxima K2 - http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Formula K2.pdf
http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
Synthetic Ester Base Stock = 65-75%
Solvent Naphtha = 5-10%
Polybutene = 5-15%
Multi functional additive mixture = 5-15%

Flash Point = 240F
Visc @ 40C = 97
Visc @ 100c= 13.6
---------------------------------

Maxima 927 - http://www.maximausa.com/msds/2stroke/Castor 927.pdf
http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/

modified fatty acid ester = <50% "fatty acid ester"? LOL
castor Oil = 50-70%
additive mixture = 10-20%

Flash Point = 420F
Visc @ 40c = 133
Visc @ 100c = 13.8
-------------------------------------

Woodland Pro synthetic- http://www.baileysonline.com/msds_sheets/PDFs/wp_synthetic.pdf
performance additive = 5-12%
high flash solvent = 22-27%
base oil - synthetic = 45-57%
Blue Dye = ~ .5%
Low smoke additive = 30-40%
fuel stabilizer - less than 2%

Flash Point = 210F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = 7.2
--------------------------------------

Shindaiwa red armor - http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
Polybutene = 15-40%
Proprietary Ester = 10-30%
Distillates (petroleum) = 10-30%
Highly refined petroleum lubricant oils = 10-30%
Hydrocarbyl amine = 7-13%
alkyl imidazoline = 1-5%
Alkarylamine = less than 2%
Solvent naphta = less than 2%

Flash Point = 163F
Visc @ 40c = 64
Visc @ 100c = 10.3
-----------------------------------------

Schaffer's - http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-msds.pdf

Complex mixture of Synthetic Base oils = 10-90%
proprietary additives = <15%


Flash point = 187F
Visc @ 40c = unknown
Visc @ 100c = unknown
----------------------------------------*


----------



## porsche965

there we go thanks


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> That is a factor of tuning, not mix ratio. The way I understand it, mix ratio should be determined be observing the amount of oil left in the crankcase.


That marketing consultant is confused...


----------



## nitehawk55

Motorcycle carbs are a lot different in the way they they feed fuel than the carbs used on saws


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Motorcycle carbs are a lot different in the way they they feed fuel than the carbs used on saws


They work the same basic way.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Because of its intended market...ultra high RPM road racing motorcycles.


Which pull about the same rpm as a 50cc saw.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Which pull about the same rpm as a 50cc saw.


But with a MUCH higher BMP on the bike.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> But with a MUCH higher BMP on the bike.


True. Most everything has a higher BMEP than a chainsaw...


----------



## Moparmyway

@bwalker ............ curious to your response ..............



Moparmyway said:


> Lets say that you are running your saw through 30 large bucking rounds.
> You finish your last cut.
> Do allow your saw to;
> 
> A. Idle for a few minutes to cool down, then shut the saw off with the kill switch
> B. Rev it up to WOT and shut off the saw with the kill switch
> C. Idle for a few minutes, then WOT for a second and while at WOT, shut off the saw with the kill switch
> D. Hold WOT through the cut, keep WOT as you pull the saw out of the now cut wood and hit the kill switch while holding WOT
> E. Something totally different


----------



## redbull660

Got some K2 to test thanks to Moparmyway!

and I got a new hat... Gotta love the beaver!


----------



## KenJax Tree

I think K2 is my favorite of the oils i've used, but it gets expensive.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I think K2 is my favorite of the oils i've used, but it gets expensive.


Its very expensive. Nearly double the price of 2R.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> @bwalker ............ curious to your response ..............


I just shut it off when done cutting.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have lost track ,but is it ok to use stihl mix in a saw ?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I have lost track ,but is it ok to use stihl mix in a saw ?



No , it will blow.


----------



## redbull660

my 361 (purchased new back in 09') run only on 50:1 ultra. 

not sure why the rings and piston skirt are so clean...while the top of piston and the exhaust port have a hard layer of Black carbon on them. The layer of black carbon is also thicker than I would like.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> my 361 (purchased new back in 09') run only on 50:1 ultra.
> 
> not sure why the rings and piston skirt are so clean...while the top of piston and the exhaust port have a hard layer of Black carbon on them. The layer of black carbon is also thicker than I would like.


must be why stihl sells the black bottle jug that says decarbonizer on it


----------



## nitehawk55

Some carbon is normal and harmless unless there is a lot of it .


----------



## Whitespider

Trx250r180 said:


> *I have lost track ,but is it ok to use stihl mix in a saw ?*



Near as I can tell, from this thread, all the oils are bad... some are just worse than others.
If''n ya' mix oil with your gas the saw is gonna' smoke-out, carbon-up, sludge-up, heat-up, lock-up, blow-up, melt-down, lay-down, and generally be trashed from the inside-out (and it might even make a funny noise) .
Ain't no friggin' way any of that crap is gonna' be run in my equipment... I've been edge-a-ma-cated‼
Just last night I dumped all the 2-stroke oil and any pre-mix I had on the drive for dust control... from here-on-out I'm mixin' fresh, warm, sweet owl dung (and a ½ teaspoon of grasshopper juice for color) with my gasoline.
And if'n the owl dung don't leave enough residual slipperiness on the piston skirt, I'm gonna' add some catfish slime to the mix... it don't get much more slimy than that‼

 Seriously, I'm still gonna' run the Stihl (orange bottle) dino stuff; I ain't never seen any need to fix what ain't broke... and I ain't read anything in this 221 page thread to convince me anything is broke.
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Near as I can tell, from this thread, all the oils are bad... some are just worse than others.
> If''n ya' mix oil with your gas the saw is gonna' smoke-out, carbon-up, sludge-up, heat-up, lock-up, blow-up, melt-down, lay-down, and generally be trashed from the inside-out (and it might even make a funny noise) .
> Ain't no friggin' way any of that crap is gonna' be run in my equipment... I've been edge-a-ma-cated‼
> Just last night I dumped all the 2-stroke oil and any pre-mix I had on the drive for dust control... from here-on-out I'm mixin' fresh, warm, sweet owl dung (and a ½ teaspoon of grasshopper juice for color) with my gasoline.
> And if'n the owl dung don't leave enough residual slipperiness on the piston skirt, I'm gonna' add some catfish slime to the mix... it don't get much more slimy than that‼
> 
> Seriously, I'm still gonna' run the Stihl (orange bottle) dino stuff; I ain't never seen any need to fix what ain't broke... and I ain't read anything in this 221 page thread to convince me anything is broke.
> *


Stihl loves guys like you.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Stihl loves guys like you.*



Now that there is funny...
I buy two or three $12.00 6-packs (maybe four if I'm real busy) of oil a year, and ain't bought a single piece of their equipment in 20 years...
"Stihl" (the corporation) shows a net loss if they figure me alone... the dealer might show a enough profit for a box-o-beer.
See bwalker, companies (like Stihl) don't love guys like me... they love guys that believe in magic, like you.
*LMFAO‼*
*


----------



## KG441c

Tell u fellows what Im seeing. Mtronics saws run alot leaner in the bottomends than a standard carb saws. I was running r50 at 32to1 when I tore my 241c down to port but noticed there was a good bit of r50 on the sides of the crankcase but not the crank and arm. After porting I ran r2 and tore it back down and it looked the same as r50? Strange was the bottomend looked alil dry for my taste but the exhaust port was very wet?


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Now that there is funny...
> I buy two or three $12.00 6-packs (maybe four if I'm real busy) of oil a year, and ain't bought a single piece of their equipment in 20 years...
> "Stihl" (the corporation) shows a net loss if they figure me alone... the dealer might show a enough profit for a box-o-beer.
> See bwalker, companies (like Stihl) don't love guys like me... they love guys that believe in magic, like you.
> *LMFAO‼*
> *


No, they love you. Paying $12.00 for a $2.00 product.


----------



## redbull660

Ok got a response back from Motul...

The original post with the rest of the conversation..

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-220#post-5372592

*Redbull - *

Why would 800 provide more protection over 710? And in theory would/should that hold true even if 710 was run at 32:1 and 800 was run at 50:1?

Is 800 jaso -fd certified?
------------------------------
*
Motul - *

Running the 710 at a ratio of 32:1 will not offer more protection than the 800 at 50:1. 710 needs to be run at a richer ratio because it has a thinner viscosity than the 800 2T. The thickness of the 800 2T allows it to be run leaner.

The 800 2T is an Ester based product. Esters handle heat and pressure much better than petroleum based products. Esters also burn very clean.

Regards,
Jon Muto
Marketing Coordinator
Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767
*T* 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | *F* 909-625-2697 | *Cell *909-538-2091
*[email protected]*|www.motul.com
-----------------------------------------------------

*Also talked to Maxmia over phone... regarding K2*

I gave him my saw info and how I run it...same as I gave the other mfgr's. (see previous posts on lucas, klotz, motul, amsoil etc

K2 Mix ratio - said start at 50:1. That is what he runs in his personal saws. I asked him about mix ratio in ported saw. He said 40:1 and he's heard of guys doing 32:1 in hot saws. He said more oil in ported saw due to higher heat from higher RPM's and oil migration. (so same answer as motul gave me and belray gave me...Ill copy n paste belray's answer at the bottom of this post, motul told me this over phone)

Cold temp - in the -30 to -40s. Said maxima had tested for what temp the additives and or oil started to drop out of suspension but didn't have the exact #. Out of the companies I've talked to Belray (h1r) and Motul (800 off road) are the only others who said they actually tested for this.


What to look for - Said exactly what amsoil, motul and belray said - he said look at spark plug. Black - too rich, White - to lean - Ideal - chocolate brown. Spark plug is the easiest best way to see how your running.


Film strength and viscosity - I told him I was running stihl ultra. I asked about the viscosity difference. (13.5 k2 vs 8.9 ultra) he gave me kind of a long winded answer about film strength and how it comprises of several factors not only the viscosity but also the polarity and additive package IIRC. (I got a similar answer about this topic from belray - see previous posted emails) Anyway - film strength of k2 is better than ultra because of the viscosity and other factors that make up film strength. Point of his long winded answer was that viscosity isn't the sole contributor to film strength.

Overall - I am looking forward to testing k2.

--------------------------------

*Belray's answer on more oil required for ported saws...*



The higher RPMs are what cause the extra heat in addition to increasing the amount of cycles over time. This in turn as you can deduce, makes more exhaust and thus burns and expels more oil over the same amount of time otherwise. The more heat you are generating, the faster the oil should be migrating through the engine and eventually out the exhaust. It’s the higher RPMs in conjunction with the resulting heat that make the oil be consumed faster.


AndrewHodges, OMA I
Product Line Manager, Powersports Division | Bel-Ray Company, LLC
-----------------------------------

*Dumonde Tech*

Trx sent me this bottle of Dumonde tech for the oil test. Thanks man!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> What to look for - Said exactly what amsoil, motul and belray said - he said look at spark plug. Black - too rich, White - to lean - Ideal - chocolate brown. Spark plug is the easiest best way to see !


So it appears none of them have a clue.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> So it appears none of them have a clue.


Amazing !!! Anybody that has a different opinion is full of crap. Lol!!!!


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> So it appears none of them have a clue.



to belray's credit - andrew gave a very detailed answer regarding the inside of the muffler, exhaust port, piston top, rings, piston skirt, spark plug, AND...tearing the whole thing down.

well motul, maxima, amsoil, all saying spark plug is best way to check if your mix ratio is on or not. Belray saying same thing but also check...well check everything.

Don't know what to tell ya man. That's what they said. 

would be helpful/more constructive if you said something besides "appears none of them have a clue".


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ahhh...even Bel Ray's marketers are the best and the rest are crap?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> to belray's credit - andrew gave a very detailed answer regarding the inside of the muffler, exhaust port, piston top, rings, piston skirt, spark plug, AND...tearing the whole thing down.
> 
> well motul, maxima, amsoil, all saying spark plug is best way to check if your mix ratio is on or not. Belray saying same thing but also check...well check everything.
> 
> Don't know what to tell ya man. That's what they said.
> 
> would be helpful/more constructive if you said something besides "appears none of them have a clue".


No offense to you, but reading a plug is not the correct way to determine the correct oil ratio. It's also a real poor way to tune,unless you do a plug chop with a brand new plug. Then your are reading the mixture ring, not by color per se.
As such I would not trust the advice of anyone suggesting such a thing.


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> Amazing !!! Anybody that has a different opinion is full of crap. Lol!!!!


What you think is oppinion isnt. This is cut and dried. Even Redbull knows they are full of it.


----------



## KG441c

Imo looking at the bottomend first then the exhaust and muffler in that order. Wouldnt that dictate oil ratio? Plug reading would directly show the tune? Im still not a fan of tuning by ratios over tuning and jetting. Ill pick a ratio that shows residual in the bottomend for protection


----------



## bwalker

Tuning by ratios is ridiculous.
Load and rpm dictate ratio.


----------



## KG441c

I agree . I was telling my buddy yesterday to figure what size wood the saw would be cutting then choose a ratio . Run the saw then take a peek at the bottomend and go from there. After tuning for the load and ratio then a plug check would come into play imo


----------



## Flatie

It seems the motul guy forgot to answer your question on weather it is FD certified...

Redbull you asked what you should ask motul and i threw a question for to ask them, why didnt you ask them my question on metallics?

I also remember you discredited K2 from your testing pages back because of the PIBs it had in it and that it could cause glazing.... Yet now you say your looking forward to try it?
I am interested to see your thoughts on it though.


----------



## bwalker

PIB causing glazing is a joke. That claim is because one guy wrote an article making that claim. Problem is the guy wasn't very knowledgeable and the article was full of holes.
The majority of the FD/FC certified oils use PIB and for very good reasons. It provides great scuff resistance, yet combusts very clean.


----------



## KG441c

Wouldnt a plug check only tell what was goin on in the topend? What about the bottomend? Oil is for the bottomend. What about a 4 stroke ? It doesnt need oil in the topend only on the valves? Imo too much oil in the topend of a 2 stroke is drowning the combustion process


----------



## Moparmyway

Flatie said:


> I also remember you discreditted K2 from your tests pages back because of the PIBs it had in it and that it could cause glazing.... Yet now you say your looking forward to try it?



I might have tipped the scale a little there .....................


----------



## KG441c

What transfers heat out of the topend? The fuel or the oil that migrated to the topend?


----------



## Pud

Airflow


----------



## KG441c

Pud said:


> Airflow


So what purpose does excess oil in the topend serve?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Wouldnt a plug check only tell what was goin on in the topend? What about the bottomend? Oil is for the bottomend. What about a 4 stroke ? It doesnt need oil in the topend only on the valves? Imo too much oil in the topend of a 2 stroke is drowning the combustion process


Plug checks as mentioned in the responses to Redbull tell you nothing.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What transfers heat out of the topend? The fuel or the oil that migrated to the topend?


Fuel and oil being evaporated as required for combustion both remove heat out of the motor. Heat is also transfered out of the piston through the oil film and into the cylinder where forced air cools it.


----------



## KG441c

Pud said:


> Airflow


I agree. Imo an oil that doesnt soak the topend and retain heat on clean metal isnt what we need. An oil that leaves ample oil in the bottom end but burns off in the topend and leaves a thin hard carbon across the top of the piston will be better because the carbon will act as an insulator and keep the piston from absorbing as much heat and will let the fuel and airflow carry the heat out the exhaust better


----------



## Trx250r180

I am going to sell all my saws ,this is too confusing .


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I agree. Imo an oil that doesnt soak the topend and retain heat on clean metal isnt what we need. An oil that leaves ample oil in the bottom end but burns off in the topend and leaves a thin hard carbon across the top of the piston will be better because the carbon will act as an insulator and keep the piston from absorbing as much heat and will let the fuel and airflow carry the heat out the exhaust better


If you have clean metal you are very rich on your tuning. A piston crown and exhaust port soaked in oil indicates rich carb settings and doesn't say much about the oil..


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I am going to sell all my saws ,this is too confusing .


This is the inevetible conclusion we all must face ..............


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> If you have clean metal you are very rich on your tuning. A piston crown and exhaust port soaked in oil indicates rich carb settings and doesn't say much about the oil..


How are you lumping oil quality in with the state of tune from the carb ?
ie ............ wet piston top =fat fuel mixture (according to you)
Where does the oil quality have anything to do with it ?


----------



## Trx250r180

I mixed up some yamalube last night ,if i have some time this weekend i will see if i like it better then the dumonde stuff ,is wayyyyyy cheaper to buy ,and has color in the fuel to tell it is mixed ,the dumonde is gold ,looks like pure gas in the tank .


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> How are you lumping oil quality in with the state of tune from the carb ?
> ie ............ wet piston top =fat fuel mixture (according to you)
> Where does the oil quality have anything to do with it ?


Because a wet, bare metal piston top 
is indicative of overly rich and thus cool combustion.


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> How are you lumping oil quality in with the state of tune from the carb ?
> ie ............ wet piston top =fat fuel mixture (according to you)
> Where does the oil quality have anything to do with it ?


Some oils combuste better and burn off better than other imo


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Because a wet, bare metal piston top
> is indicative of overly rich and thus cool combustion.


Wont this make the saw last longer ? At a power sacrifice .


----------



## KG441c

Here would be a good test. A bare clean piston saw ran with x oil at x ratio and a piston with carbon on the top with same oil and ratio and check temps


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Some oils combuste better and burn off better than other imo


True, but if your both wet and have bare metal, that's rich tuning.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> True, but if your both wet and have bare metal, that's rich tuning.


I agree. I believe carbon with proper tuning is normal


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> If you have clean metal you are very rich on your tuning. A piston crown and exhaust port soaked in oil indicates rich carb settings and doesn't say much about the oil..





Moparmyway said:


> How are you lumping oil quality in with the state of tune from the carb ?
> ie ............ wet piston top =fat fuel mixture (according to you)
> Where does the oil quality have anything to do with it ?





bwalker said:


> Because a wet, bare metal piston top
> is indicative of overly rich and thus cool combustion.



Still no explanation how it ties into oil quality


----------



## rogue661

I'll bite I can't believe this is still going! haha ....
I can throw a spanner in the works got a few 066/660 actual work saws some pushing well over 10+ years and never had the barrels pulled to check how clean the top of the piston is or how much oil is in the bottom end?(only pull em down if they end up way down the line as a parts saw) even though some here seem to pull the barrel after 2 tanks of fuel saying all looks good or I'm not happy after 2 tanks? with whatever oil  haha...
Well the spanner is? we only use mineral based oil at bout 25:1! I know I know is crazy talk and most likely impossible!, now don't shoot the messenger but never have/seen a saw size or down on power running mineral oil at 25:1 more like up on power seeing a few youtube vids and bets me what the go is with that? ...But yeah mountains out of molehills is more like what is going on here!...
That is unless the only way you can tell your chain is dull is when you see dust? does anyone actually use that as an indicator of how dull a chain is?  if true well in that case run the best synthetic oil you can and blame Obama when the piston still smears itself up and down the bore lol.......Just my 2c


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Wont this make the saw last longer ? At a power sacrifice .


Hard to say, but could have the opposite effect.


Moparmyway said:


> Still no explanation how it ties into oil quality



It doesnt, unless you are tuned right and have carbon on the crown, but are still slathering oil out the exhaust.


----------



## Whitespider

KG441c said:


> *So what purpose does excess oil in the topend serve?*


None.
*​


----------



## Trx250r180

why such short bars on that size of saw ?


----------



## KG441c

rogue661 said:


> I'll bite I can't believe this is still going! haha ....
> I can throw a spanner in the works got a few 066/660 actual work saws some pushing well over 10+ years and never had the barrels pulled to check how clean the top of the piston is or how much oil is in the bottom end?(only pull em down if they end up way down the line as a parts saw) even though some here seem to pull the barrel after 2 tanks of fuel saying all looks good or I'm not happy after 2 tanks? with whatever oil  haha...
> Well the spanner is? we only use mineral based oil at bout 25:1! I know I know is crazy talk and most likely impossible!, now don't shoot the messenger but never have/seen a saw size or down on power running mineral oil at 25:1 more like up on power seeing a few youtube vids and bets me what the go is with that? ...But yeah mountains out of molehills is more like what is going on here!...
> That is unless the only way you can tell your chain is dull is when you see dust? does anyone actually use that as an indicator of how dull a chain is?  if true well in that case run the best synthetic oil you can and blame Obama when the piston still smears itself up and down the bore lol.......Just my 2c
> View attachment 426261


U sir just shut down 223 pages of debate with that opinion! LOL!!!


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> why such short bars on that size of saw ?


Lots of guys do that here. A 660 with a 16" bar and a 8pin sprocket is a firewood lightsaber.
You seldom see a bar longer than 24" up here.


----------



## rogue661

Trx250r180 said:


> why such short bars on that size of saw ?


Aussie Hardwood Its a time thing we don't have time to fart about, and use a tool that gets the job done asap.. I know it's hard to believe stock saw's and all but even in the small wood in the pic an Aussie 66o will out cut a 461 and a stock 880 with a 25in bar .404 RS 7 pin will out cut all of em....We only run Stihl from what I've seen guys that run husky here seem to like 390's 395's and the 3120 for the torque/ grunt they offer in Aussie hardwood... And yeah we use the dogs on a saw you would end up exhausted at the end of the day holding a saw back off the dogs trying to make it self feed even with a sharp chain you have to use some pressure to make it cut when you get into our hardwoods like Ironbark/Steelbox ect ect.......I can make a vid if ya like of a 660 with a sharp chain dogs in pulling up cutting doing as it should in some Red Ironbark then pull it back off the dogs and take any input pressure off on my behalf .it will just jump about in the cut going nowhere.....


----------



## redbull660

Flatie said:


> It seems the motul guy forgot to answer your question on weather it is FD certified...
> 
> Redbull you asked what you should ask motul and i threw a question for to ask them, why didnt you ask them my question on metallics?
> 
> I also remember you discredited K2 from your testing pages back because of the PIBs it had in it and that it could cause glazing.... Yet now you say your looking forward to try it?
> I am interested to see your thoughts on it though.



ok fired off some more ?s to Motul...

-----------------------------
Sir, couple more...

1) Is that because the lower viscosity of 710 having less film strength? ("Running the 710 at a ratio of 32:1 will not offer more protection than the 800 at 50:1.")

2) I know it says "above existing standards" but is 800 off road actually Jaso -FD certified? If not, why ?

3) Wouldn't checking your plug - just tell you if your tuning was incorrect?

4) I've heard that the metallics in 800 off road can lead to build up and would cause a great ignition source for pre-ignition. Have you heard of this happening? Could you talk about the metallics in 800 off road? No offense intended. It's hearsay I understand. I'm just concerned.

Thank you again for your time. Have a nice weekend.

Respectfully,
Redbull
------------------------------------------

*Re: K2 *
because I asked Andrew about PIB...

*me: *
Could it be argued that K2 should be eliminated because of the PIB in it? ie..PIB can cause glazing after a while..

also,
What do you think of mounting a tach on the saw? What would I be looking for between the different oils and ratios?
*

Andrew: *
No you can’t really eliminate an oil because of PIB. PIB is a good and useful additive if utilized properly.

If you are going wide open on the throttle, then you eliminate a variable there and you can compare top RPM’s with the open throttle between oils. There should be a difference even if it is only slight.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You guys gotta give this guy more credit. *He's extremely honest.* Also don't write off the abundance of great info here (some of it is biased yes, SOME, but there is some really really good info) - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420


*
K2 Cont.*

and moparmyway sent me some!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Are you talking to Tim Schaeffer from Maxima?


----------



## bwalker

Andrew seems like a decent guy excepting the spark plug comment.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Andrew seems like a decent guy excepting the spark plug comment.



he said spark plug was one thing to look at. He also said everything else and periodic tear downs.


----------



## huskihl

Trx250r180 said:


> why such short bars on that size of saw ?


My logger buddy with the 390-395 boneyard has 50 new 20" bars hanging on the wall. They cut around the tree on anything longer than that but most maple saw logs here are 16 -30". They don't wanna carry the added weight. And he's only 5'-6" lol


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> he said spark plug was one thing to look at. He also said everything else and periodic tear downs.


God forbid tearing it down to see what an oil is doing in the bottomend! Gotta run at least 10yrs or wait til it blows up!!


----------



## blsnelling

You can tune lean with a 16:1 mix ratio, so don't see how plug reading is an indicator at all of the mix ratio.


----------



## KG441c

So plug reading is tune rather than ratio reading?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> So plug reading is tune rather than ratio reading?


Most definitely.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> You can tune lean with a 16:1 mix ratio, so don't see how plug reading is an indicator at all of the mix ratio.


Its not. The guy is flat out wrong. And honestly your not going to get the best info from emailing a company.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Most definitely.


Completley. I would also add that 90% of the people claiming to read plugs don't know how to do it right.


----------



## Andyshine77

Oil needs to be exchanged. Viscosity may prevent failure, but the down side of lean mix ratios like 50:1 is the lack of oil exchange. Think of it like running your vehicle for a year without changing the oil. This terminology was used in the links I provide 100 pages back. If an oil can't be ran effectively at 32:1 it's not going in my equipment.

Asking sales reps questions about the product they sell is comical, much like this thread.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Its not. The guy is flat out wrong. And honestly your not going to get the best info from emailing a company.





bwalker said:


> Completley. I would also add that 90% of the people claiming to read plugs don't know how to do it right.



ok well just for the record - that is motul, amsoil, maxima saying plug reading as best way. Belray saying it's one point of many to look at and consider




Andyshine77 said:


> Oil needs to be exchanged. Viscosity may prevent failure, but the down side of lean mix ratios like 50:1 is the lack of oil exchange. Think of it like running your vehicle for a year without changing the oil. This terminology was used in the links I provide 100 pages back. If an oil can't be ran effectively at 32:1 it's not going in my equipment.
> 
> Asking sales reps questions about the product they sell is comical, much like this thread.




yes all oil is equal blah blah blah. we shall see! 

new list

2r
h1r
r50
800 off road
k2 
dumonde tech


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> ok well just for the record - that is motul, amsoil, maxima saying plug reading as best way. Belray saying it's one point of many to look at and consider
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes all oil is equal blah blah blah. we shall see!
> 
> new list
> 
> 2r
> h1r
> r50
> 800 off road
> k2
> dumonde tech


Your talking to marketers and they are flat out wrong...all of them.
Andy is spot on in regards to the oil exchange thing. High viscosity is no replacement for quantity and has quit a few down sides like burning dirty/ heavy deposits.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Your talking to marketers and they are flat out wrong...all of them.
> Andy is spot on in regards to the oil exchange thing. High viscosity is no replacement for quantity and had quit a few down sides like burning dirty/ heavy deposits.


Again it comes down to knowing the +&- and determining what's best for you. 

Plug reading is almost impossible in chainsaws. These salesmen are referring to bikes, karts and snowmobiles. Not chainsaws.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have been having a hard time getting a 4th gear plug chop reading with my saw ,this could be why .


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> yes all oil is equal blah blah blah. we shall see!
> 
> new list
> 
> 2r
> h1r
> r50
> 800 off road
> k2
> dumonde tech



I don't remember ever saying all oils are the same.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> I don't remember ever saying all oils are the same.



essentially you are, if you say you gotta run 32:1.


----------



## Whitespider

Andyshine77 said:


> *Oil needs to be exchanged. ...the down side of lean mix ratios like 50:1 is the lack of oil exchange. Think of it like running your vehicle for a year without changing the oil.*


OK... so wouldn't running a fuel with more oil than needed to accomplish this exchange be the same as changing the oil in your vehicle every 100 miles... or 50 miles??
Wouldn't that be horribly inefficient and wasteful??

For that matter... I thought one of the advantages of synthetic oil was you could go much longer between oil changes??
So, along that line, you shouldn't need to "exchange" the oil as rapidly in a 2-stroke, meaning a 50:1 synthetic should just the ticket (shrug)
*


----------



## Whitespider

I still say, "enough" oil is all that's required... and no more than that.
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> OK... so wouldn't running a fuel with more oil than needed to accomplish this exchange be the same as changing the oil in your vehicle every 100 miles... or 50 miles??
> Wouldn't that be horribly inefficient and wasteful??
> 
> For that matter... I thought one of the advantages of synthetic oil was you could go much longer between oil changes??
> So, along that line, you shouldn't need to "exchange" the oil as rapidly in a 2-stroke, meaning a 50:1 synthetic should just the ticket (shrug)
> *


For starters you can't compare a 4 cycle to a two cycle...


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> essentially you are, if you say you gotta run 32:1.


I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio. You're free to run what you want.

The point of running synthetic oil has little to with extended change intervals, as you still have the same amount of contamination. Synthetic oils are more stable, and have a wider viscosity range. Thinner oils that maintain film strength also improves fuel economy.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok i'm mixing fuel for tomorrow....Yamalube 2R, whats the magic ratio for tomorrow?


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> Ok i'm mixing fuel for tomorrow....Yamalube 2R, whats the magic ratio for tomorrow?



40:1


----------



## KenJax Tree

brockhaskins said:


> 40:1


That was yesterday and today's


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio. You're free to run what you want.
> 
> The point of running synthetic oil has little to with extended change intervals, as you still have the same amount of contamination. Synthetic oils are more stable, and have a wider viscosity range. Thinner oils that maintain film strength also improves fuel economy.


Any of these oils that won't run clean at 32:1 are not right for the application or are garbage.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio. You're free to run what you want.
> 
> The point of running synthetic oil has little to with extended change intervals, as you still have the same amount of contamination. Synthetic oils are more stable, and have a wider viscosity range. Thinner oils that maintain film strength also improves fuel economy.



And here in lies the fundamental differences between us...

*You and bwalker say: *"I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio." 
*
My stance is*: That simply doesn't make mathematical sense. 

800 and H1R and R50 - given their make up of basically 85-90% ester + 10-15% additives 
vs
say the likes of k2 & 2R - which have at least 10% solvent/carrier fluids which have NO lubricating properties at all ! 

You simply can not run both groups at the same ratio and expect the same performance. 

k2 & 2r: 10% of the bottle...of what you pour into the gas IS NOT providing any lubrication at all. 

BUT I am not saying there is a major difference in ratio given the 10%. 

*If you want to run 2r and k2 at 32:1 then the likes of 800 h1r r50 would be run at 36:1 to be apples to apples. *


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> And here in lies the fundamental differences between us...
> 
> *You and bwalker say: *"I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio."
> *
> My stance is*: That simply doesn't make mathematical sense.
> 
> 800 and H1R and R50 - given their make up of basically 85-90% ester + 10-15% additives
> vs
> say the likes of k2 & 2R - which have at least 10% solvent/carrier fluids which have NO lubricating properties at all !
> 
> You simply can not run both groups at the same ratio and expect the same performance.
> 
> k2 & 2r: 10% of the bottle...of what you pour into the gas IS NOT providing any lubrication at all.
> 
> BUT I am not saying there is a major difference in ratio given the 10%.
> 
> *If you want to run 2r and k2 at 32:1 then the likes of 800 h1r r50 would be run at 36:1 to be apples to apples. *


Are these the following questions we're trying to conclude:
1) Which oil(s) have better lubricating qualities? Is this determined by observing the lower end bearings and/or top end?
2) Which oil(s) burn cleaner? Is this determined by observing, again, the low and top end?
3) Which oil(s) provide better performance in speed? Is this determined by comparing timed cuts with different oils at the same ratio?

1) The best answer I've read, and saw, to question #1 was from Mdavlee. He said both R50 and 800 off-road provided excellent lower end lubrication.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> That was yesterday and today's


Yall got this all wrong!! 41:1


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> And here in lies the fundamental differences between us...
> 
> *You and bwalker say: *"I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio."
> *
> My stance is*: That simply doesn't make mathematical sense.
> 
> 800 and H1R and R50 - given their make up of basically 85-90% ester + 10-15% additives
> vs
> say the likes of k2 & 2R - which have at least 10% solvent/carrier fluids which have NO lubricating properties at all !
> 
> You simply can not run both groups at the same ratio and expect the same performance.
> 
> k2 & 2r: 10% of the bottle...of what you pour into the gas IS NOT providing any lubrication at all.
> 
> BUT I am not saying there is a major difference in ratio given the 10%.
> 
> *If you want to run 2r and k2 at 32:1 then the likes of 800 h1r r50 would be run at 36:1 to be apples to apples. *


If an oil won't run good at 32:1, 36:1 won't matter.
And for the millionth time..forget about solvents! The worst thing that happened was you finding msds sheets...


----------



## KG441c

Oh hell!!! 3 big glugs out of the bottle to 1 gallon of gas. Run it 10yrs and dont worry about what it looks like. If it craters part the saw out and buy another


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> And here in lies the fundamental differences between us...
> 
> *You and bwalker say: *"I prefer to run 32:1 and won't run an oil that can't be ran effectively at that ratio."
> *
> My stance is*: That simply doesn't make mathematical sense.
> 
> 800 and H1R and R50 - given their make up of basically 85-90% ester + 10-15% additives
> vs
> say the likes of k2 & 2R - which have at least 10% solvent/carrier fluids which have NO lubricating properties at all !
> 
> You simply can not run both groups at the same ratio and expect the same performance.
> 
> k2 & 2r: 10% of the bottle...of what you pour into the gas IS NOT providing any lubrication at all.
> 
> BUT I am not saying there is a major difference in ratio given the 10%.
> 
> *If you want to run 2r and k2 at 32:1 then the likes of 800 h1r r50 would be run at 36:1 to be apples to apples. *


Have you read any of the information in the links I've previously provided? It appears not.


----------



## mdavlee

Let's set up a test log and mill with one or several different ones at 50:1, 60:1 and up and see if they'll make a single cut, half cut, 5 cuts, etc. 12x12 block of hardwood and maybe some earthquakes since they're cheap.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Let's set up a test log and mill with one or several different ones at 50:1, 60:1 and up and see if they'll make a single cut, half cut, 5 cuts, etc. 12x12 block of hardwood and maybe some earthquakes since they're cheap.


That sounds like a real idea. The rest of this crap is gettin ridiculous


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> If an oil won't run good at 32:1, 36:1 won't matter.
> And for the millionth time..forget about solvents! The worst thing that happened was you finding msds sheets...



we shall see what makes a difference, if any! And with that I'm done here, until testing. There is no further point for me to say anything. I've emailed and called all the companies. I posted what they said. There is nothing more to do except test em.

well I will post what motul replies with. That is the last thing I'm waiting on.

*
Have a nice memorial day weekend.*



*edit - looking at my notes. Maxima guy Tim maybe? Said he only ran k2 in his own equipment and said that super M wouldn't offer as much protection as K2.*


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Let's set up a test log and mill with one or several different ones at 50:1, 60:1 and up and see if they'll make a single cut, half cut, 5 cuts, etc. 12x12 block of hardwood and maybe some earthquakes since they're cheap.


Id like to see what oil will run the longest time before failure.


----------



## huskihl

mdavlee said:


> Let's set up a test log and mill with one or several different ones at 50:1, 60:1 and up and see if they'll make a single cut, half cut, 5 cuts, etc. 12x12 block of hardwood and maybe some earthquakes since they're cheap.


If you want to find the best lubricating properties, they recommend 50:1, and I'm sure there's a safety factor built in. Run a couple at 80 or 100:1 and see which one lasts the longest. You'd need a saw for every oil you tried. But you still wouldn't know anything about combustion properties or power at a more practical oil ratio.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Id like to see what oil will run the longest time before failure.


I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't see one


----------



## huskihl

huskihl said:


> If you want to find the best lubricating properties, they recommend 50:1, and I'm sure there's a safety factor built in. Run a couple at 80 or 100:1 and see which one lasts the longest. You'd need a saw for every oil you tried. But you still wouldn't know anything about combustion properties or power at a more practical oil ratio.


Then work your way back down the list from the top and settle on one with good power/cleanliness/combustion at 32:1


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't see one


At 150:1 you would


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't see one


U run high enough ratio u will


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> U run high enough ratio u will


Well yeah[emoji1] i meant at 50:1


----------



## huskihl

Milling a 12x12 can't at 150:1, I bet you could use a tape measure instead of a stopwatch lol


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i have seen many saws run forever on 50:1 using the cheapest oil available.
on 50:1 i think a bone stock saw would be fine / on a modded saw i would use no less than 42:1


----------



## huskihl

jakewells said:


> i have seen many saws run forever on 50:1 using the cheapest oil available.
> on 50:1 i think a bone stock saw would be fine / on a modded saw i would use no less than 42:1


Yeah. I agree. But we know that 226 pages of testing that will prove nothing


----------



## KenJax Tree

The Mexican's I work with just buy what ever the gas station has. They fill the can and pour in a bottle of oil...no measuring at all


----------



## Deleted member 83629

beating a dead horse here.


----------



## KG441c

I just went through a Husky 181 that was a 1984 and ran whatever oil including convient stores oils @ 32to1. The piston had a thin hard coating of carbon as well as the exhaust port. The piston skirt and cylinder was as scratch free as any I have ever seen. The ring lands looked new


----------



## huskihl

KG441c said:


> I just went through a Husky 181 that was a 1984 and ran whatever oil including convient stores oils @ 32to1. The piston had a thin hard coating of carbon as well as the exhaust port. The piston skirt and cylinder was as scratch free as any I have ever seen. The ring lands looked new


All of mine look the same as your 181. But after 27 years of using crap oil and tcw3 the rod bearing finally got sloppy on my 1988 jred 625. Wonder if I could have gotten 28 out of it had I spent an extra $2000 on more expensive synthetic oil.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

to me anymore cheap store brand oils work fine and if the only problem is a little carbon in the exhaust ports, i would use the oil to end.


----------



## KG441c

huskihl said:


> All of mine look the same as your 181. But after 27 years of using crap oil and tcw3 the rod bearing finally got sloppy on my 1988 jred 625. Wonder if I could have gotten 28 out of it had I spent an extra $2000 on more expensive synthetic oil.


!! Well of course


----------



## huskihl

KG441c said:


> !! Well of course


I doubt it


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im using some lawn boy oil that is in a round metal 8 oz cans its a bit old but works fine. smells a bit odd and smokes some to.
i ran a few tanks of it in the 590 it didn't die but i killed the skeeters for about a mile.


----------



## KG441c

huskihl said:


> I doubt it


I have liked 800t , r50, r2, h1r. I dont care for Stihl ultra or h1r because they both about choke me to death with the odor. R2 probably has the least smell of any I used


----------



## CR500

I wonder what is wrong with Super M???? It is supposed to be decent stuff. 
Am trying Yamalube next, it does have a good track record it seems 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

don't have a clue never used it but im sure it is good. between the farmers co-op and oreilly auto the selection is slim.


----------



## huskihl

jakewells said:


> to me anymore cheap store brand oils work fine and if the only problem is a little carbon in the exhaust ports, i would use the oil to end.


From what I've read from you on this thread, and many others I'm sure, you'd be crazy to run anything but Walmart tcw3 at $12 per gallon. According to your posts, you burn about 20 gallons of oil per year. At $30 per gallon savings each, you'd save $600/year. Every 2 years you'd get a new big saw for free.
I save enough to drive 1000 miles and kill 100 ducks in manitoba every year.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

it is not out of choice but necessity between cutting wood and mowing and what ever else. the only reason im looking for a cheaper oil is because of cost my income is roughly 9,000 per year i don't make a whole lot of money so i got to cut corners.
my income gets eaten alive buy fuel and oil.


----------



## Big_Wood

hay boys, i ran 6 litres of fuel mixed at 50:1 with **** generic oil in my 372 today. all seems just fine although i am to lazy to pull the muffler. maybe in a few weeks after some hours.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> it is not out of choice but necessity between cutting wood and mowing and what ever else. the only reason im looking for a cheaper oil is because of cost my income is roughly 9,000 per year i don't make a whole lot of money so i got to cut corners.
> my income gets eaten alive buy fuel and oil.


$9k a year? What do you do?


----------



## nitehawk55

A lot of those cheap 2 cycle mixes are made by only a few refiners so most are likely decent oil .


----------



## KenJax Tree

westcoaster90 said:


> hay boys, i ran 6 litres of fuel mixed at 50:1 with **** generic oil in my 372 today. all seems just fine although i am to lazy to pull the muffler. maybe in a few weeks after some hours.


No unicorns and rainbows involved with dino oil @ 50:1 Shane.


----------



## huskihl

westcoaster90 said:


> hay boys, i ran 6 litres of fuel mixed at 50:1 with **** generic oil in my 372 today. all seems just fine although i am to lazy to pull the muffler. maybe in a few weeks after some hours.


You canuks. 6 litres. Is that like a quart, half a gallon, or 5 gallons?


----------



## KenJax Tree

huskihl said:


> You canuks. 6 litres. Is that like a quart, half a gallon, or 5 gallons?


About a gallon and a half


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> No unicorns and rainbows involved with dino oil @ 50:1 Shane.


Fairy dust and bedazzles


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> About a gallon and a half


Y'all got yer sarcasm blinders on tonight I see. Where's bwalker to freshen you guys up? Lol


----------



## Big_Wood

KenJax Tree said:


> No unicorns and rainbows involved with dino oil @ 50:1 Shane.



i don't believe you


----------



## KenJax Tree

huskihl said:


> Y'all got yer sarcasm blinders on tonight I see. Where's bwalker to freshen you guys up? Lol


Sarcasm? WTF?!? You asked and i told you[emoji1]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> $9k a year? What do you do?


i mow yards in the summer and work part time at the local feed mill in the winter can't get full time
jobs are non existent here.


----------



## Whitespider

OMG‼
I don't know where to start with the "likes"....
And... just so ya' know... I'm stickin' with the owl dung.
*


----------



## brockhaskins

CR500 said:


> I wonder what is wrong with Super M???? It is supposed to be decent stuff.
> Am trying Yamalube next, it does have a good track record it seems
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.



Nothing. He was trying to sell the stuff that costs more.


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> That was yesterday and today's


40:1 again today. I can tell you for sure a saw will run for a long long time at 40:1 if tuned right, And that is commercial use. I'd bet the farm that 95% of failures are from an air leak or improper tune.


----------



## KenJax Tree

brockhaskins said:


> 40:1 again today. I can tell you for sure a saw will run for a long long time at 40:1 if tuned right, And that is commercial use. I'd bet the farm that 95% of failures are from an air leak or improper tune.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR500 said:


> I wonder what is wrong with Super M???? It is supposed to be decent stuff.
> Am trying Yamalube next, it does have a good track record it seems
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


Nothing....i like Super M and its half the price of K2.


----------



## brockhaskins

Kenjax are you a climber?


----------



## glock37

Ok is it ok to mix mix say bel ray and k2 
You have bel ray in tank and run out in can can you add k2 mix in with bel ray mix 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Nothing....i like Super M and its half the price of K2.


http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=331532313710&alt=web 
thats about as cheap as ive found for 64oz


----------



## bwalker

For the guys on a budget it's nearly impossible to beat yam 2R at under $10 per quart. You won't find a better value.


----------



## bwalker

Citgo air cooled is another excellent oil that's a viable for a very reasonable price. It's also FC/FD certified.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *It's also FC/FD certified.*


No thanks, I have no use for the extra soap... errr... detergent 
And, tell me, why should I trust the Japanese to certify the oil I use?? Why would I even care what they certify?? Why would I even pay attention??
*


----------



## RonL

WOW!

I was up at the mountain actually USING my equipment. I come back and there is another thirty pages on this thread! I'm conducting a long term test with my equipment. If I'm still around in ten years I'll post the results on this thread. Should be around ten thousand pages by then. Someone may need to remind me, as I may be senile by then.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> No thanks, I have no use for the extra soap... errr... detergent
> And, tell me, why should I trust the Japanese to certify the oil I use?? Why would I even care what they certify?? Why would I even pay attention??
> *


Japanese might know a thing or two about two strokes.. and the European standards mirror JASO..


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *...the European standards mirror JASO..*


Say what?? 
Tell me, why should I trust the Europeans to certify the oil I use?? Why would I even care what they certify?? Why would I even pay attention??
*


----------



## mdavlee

huskihl said:


> If you want to find the best lubricating properties, they recommend 50:1, and I'm sure there's a safety factor built in. Run a couple at 80 or 100:1 and see which one lasts the longest. You'd need a saw for every oil you tried. But you still wouldn't know anything about combustion properties or power at a more practical oil ratio.


I'm not real worried about what ratio it works best at. I'm going to run klotz or K2 @32:1 and be happy. I'm just curious what ratio will seize it up or start scoring in a setting like milling.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I'm not real worried about what ratio it works best at. I'm going to run klotz or K2 @32:1 and be happy. I'm just curious what ratio will seize it up or start scoring in a setting like milling.


How many saws do u plan to blow up Mike?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> How many saws do u plan to blow up Mike?


3 or 4 maybe. I don't know. I know a few people have said they'd be in for testing so let's make this happen. If someone else wants to I'll send them money.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> I'm not real worried about what ratio it works best at. I'm going to run klotz or K2 @32:1 and be happy. I'm just curious what ratio will seize it up or start scoring in a setting like milling.


I'll bet you could take any saw, throw some 2R in the tank at 50:1 and mill all day long without blowing it up. I bet 100:1 would be the same. This assumes carb tuning is correct for the load.


----------



## Big_Wood

i got a 365sp with an AM farmertec big bore kit on it i ported that am gonna do some abuse to. got it leaned right out and running on 50:1. we'll see LOL i can't guarentee it will be run on one oil though. will be whatever's cheapest. so far she be running on this here huile LOL

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----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Say what??
> Tell me, why should I trust the Europeans to certify the oil I use?? Why would I even care what they certify?? Why would I even pay attention??
> *


You don't pay attention... that's pretty apparent.


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> i got a 365sp with an AM farmertec big bore kit on it i ported that am gonna do some abuse to. got it leaned right out and running on 50:1. we'll see LOL i can't guarentee it will be run on one oil though. will be whatever's cheapest. so far she be running on this here huile LOL
> 
> http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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


When I lived in Canada Esso had a pretty dang good semi synthetic air cooled oil.


----------



## steven stern

Stihl ultra at 44.628383 to .999998 is the only thing that works.


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> When I lived in Canada Esso had a pretty dang good semi synthetic air cooled oil.



i know the one your talking about. it was good man. i still have half a bottle of the stuff that i use as assembly lube when i put a saw together. sadly, they seem to have abandoned that oil all together as i can't find anymore of it. looked all over the island for some. used to run it in everything.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I'll bet you could take any saw, throw some 2R in the tank at 50:1 and mill all day long without blowing it up. I bet 100:1 would be the same. This assumes carb tuning is correct for the load.


Yeah no doubt. I'm sure most of these good oils would be fine at 50:1. I'm just curious what some will do at higher ratios.


----------



## Justsaws

I used Lucas at 64:1 on a mill for a few gallons of mix, pretty sure it was 3. The non scientific testing results were it was much more pleasent to breathe but the saw seemed to run hotter and take a bit longer to cool down between cuts. Nothing fancy happened, would not recommend it and would not do it again with a saw I like. Have not noticed any reason to run anymore oil than 32:1 , cut width are 12" to 30" with 1122 series power head. If I was using a Husq 365 or 390 or I might use 24:1.

Never had any operational problems running SuperTech oil but it was good for a thick layer of crust in the exhaust and on the piston. Only ran one can of the Lawn Boy oil, everything broke, the dead woke and it rained frogs for a week.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *You don't pay attention... that's pretty apparent.*


But... but... the question was... _*Why should I??
*_
Why should I trust the Japanese or Europeans to certify the oil I use?? Why would I even care what they certify?? Why would I even pay attention??
Yeah, not only is it apparent, it's also obvious I couldn't give an owl squat less what the Japanese or Europeans do or certify.
The question is... why should I?? Why should I care one wit about some arbitrary Japanese or European "standard"??
Are we now gonna' let overseas policy and standards dictate United States policy and standards??

Not only do I not care about Japanese or European oil standards... I flat friggin' ignore them... and I sure-as-hell ain't gonna' attach any credibility to them. Trying to tell me I need Japanese or European certification on the oil I use is like tryin' to tell me my life ain't complete without a Twitter account... once I stop laughin' long enough to realize you're not joking, I'll tell ya' you're an idiot. Just because an oil ain't "certified" don't necessarily mean it wouldn't pass the testing... it likely means it just ain't been submitted for testing (and likely because the producer couldn't give an owl squat less what the Japanese or Europeans do or certify... and certainly ain't gonna' give 'em credibility by paying 'em for the privilege).

What a friggin' joke‼ Go ahead, keep believin' in magic... gimmick salesman just love customers like you (I should know... I've sold my share of gimmicks).
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> But... but... the question was... _*Why should I??
> *_
> Why should I trust the Japanese or Europeans to certify the oil I use?? Why would I even care what they certify?? Why would I even pay attention??
> Yeah, not only is it apparent, it's also obvious I couldn't give an owl squat less what the Japanese or Europeans do or certify.
> The question is... why should I?? Why should I care one wit about some arbitrary Japanese or European "standard"??
> Are we now gonna' let overseas policy and standards dictate United States policy and standards??
> 
> Not only do I not care about Japanese or European oil standards... I flat friggin' ignore them... and I sure-as-hell ain't gonna' attach any credibility to them. Trying to tell me I need Japanese or European certification on the oil I use is like tryin' to tell me my life ain't complete without a Twitter account... once I stop laughin' long enough to realize you're not joking, I'll tell ya' you're an idiot. Just because an oil ain't "certified" don't necessarily mean it wouldn't pass the testing... it likely means it just ain't been submitted for testing (and likely because the producer couldn't give an owl squat less what the Japanese or Europeans do or certify... and certainly ain't gonna' give 'em credibility by paying 'em for the privilege).
> 
> What a friggin' joke‼ Go ahead, keep believin' in magic... gimmick salesman just love customers like you (I should know... I've sold my share of gimmicks).
> *


You make alot of ASSUMPTIONS...all wrong of course.
If your happy paying top dollar for crap, have at it.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Yeah no doubt. I'm sure most of these good oils would be fine at 50:1. I'm just curious what some will do at higher ratios.


Damage happens over time. I think I mentioned that I owned and operated a fleet of around 30 yamaha outboards. When ran at 100:1 as yamaha suggests they seem to lose power by two seasons of commercial use. Running the same motors at 50:1 they didn't seem to loose power when they were spun off after 3 seasons.
I did have a yam 3 cycle 30hp that I ran for 7 years using both its oil injection and premixed fuel at 50:1 for 4 years and 100:1 for 3 years. Never fouled a plug and it is still running for the person I sold it to. Those yam 30 where great motors though..


----------



## Ron660

Talked to a Logger yesterday about saws and oil ratios. He's been using saws for over 30 years and prefers Husky 372's. He said his 372's lasted between 1.5 - 2 years mixing a 50:1 ratio. He decided to try 25:1 and now he's getting close to 5 years. He averages 8 chainsaw tanks a day.


----------



## LowVolt




----------



## Moparmyway

glock37 said:


> Ok is it ok to mix mix say bel ray and k2
> You have bel ray in tank and run out in can can you add k2 mix in with bel ray mix
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wouldn't hesitate to dump it in there
Heck ......... I am mixing R50 and 800 off road together in one saw and it seems to like it, I might just run it in everything


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to dump it in there
> Heck ......... I am mixing R50 and 800 off road together in one saw and it seems to like it, I might just run it in everything


Now you have R425 off-road


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Damage happens over time. I think I mentioned that I owned and operated a fleet of around 30 yamaha outboards. When ran at 100:1 as yamaha suggests they seem to lose power by two seasons of commercial use. Running the same motors at 50:1 they didn't seem to loose power when they were spun off after 3 seasons.
> I did have a yam 3 cycle 30hp that I ran for 7 years using both its oil injection and premixed fuel at 50:1 for 4 years and 100:1 for 3 years. Never fouled a plug and it is still running for the person I sold it to. Those yam 30 where great motors though..


It may take a while to score or seize one at 100:1 even milling.


----------



## redbull660

We could a straight gas test as well!

one on 87 octane
one on 92 octane
and
one on 87 octane WITH enthanol

ONE of those has to be better! We could take bets on which one lasts the longest! 


Just ordered some Motul 800 off road


----------



## Trx250r180

You guys are nuts


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> You guys are nuts


Just now figuring this out?


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *You make alot of ASSUMPTIONS...all wrong of course.*


Ummm... no...
That whole post was a question... or a series of questions... no assumptions of any sort.
And you still ain't answered the most important one... or any of them for that matter.
*


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Trx250r180 said:


> You guys are nuts


they are nuttier than a fruitcake.


----------



## redbull660

concerning reading the spark plug as an indicator of running rich or lean or right on - I guess I failed to mention that, I told them all that 661 was auto tune. 

So if the saw is auto tune. Could the spark plug be used as a gauge to determine if you are running to rich or lean or correctly? If not, why?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> concerning reading the spark plug as an indicator of running rich or lean or right on - I guess I failed to mention that, I told them all that 661 was auto tune.
> 
> So if the saw is auto tune. Could the spark plug be used as a gauge to determine if you are running to rich or lean or correctly? If not, why?


No, and I mentioned why earlier.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> Talked to a Logger yesterday about saws and oil ratios. He's been using saws for over 30 years and prefers Husky 372's. He said his 372's lasted between 1.5 - 2 years mixing a 50:1 ratio. He decided to try 25:1 and now he's getting close to 5 years. He averages 8 chainsaw tanks a day.



Husqvarnas last that long ?...huh..thats funny , i thought that was a STIHL thing


----------



## KG441c

Is carbon on top of the piston normal and why?


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> Oil needs to be exchanged. Viscosity may prevent failure, but the down side of lean mix ratios like 50:1 is the lack of oil exchange. Think of it like running your vehicle for a year without changing the oil. This terminology was used in the links I provide 100 pages back. If an oil can't be ran effectively at 32:1 it's not going in my equipment.
> 
> Asking sales reps questions about the product they sell is comical, much like this thread.





bwalker said:


> Andy is spot on in regards to the oil exchange thing. High viscosity is no replacement for quantity and has quit a few down sides like burning dirty/ heavy deposits.



that is what you guys don't get.

The Quantity isn't the same.

32:1 yamalube 2R doesn't have as much oil in the gas can as 32:1 motul 800 2t

yamalube has AT LEAST 10% LESS oil in the gas can as motul 800 2t if used in same ratio. Makes a difference. and yeah 10% is a lot.



bwalker said:


> No, and I mentioned why earlier.



Looked at your previous posts. I don't see a reason given.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> that is what you guys don't get.
> 
> The Quantity isn't the same.
> 
> 32:1 yamalube 2R doesn't have as much oil in the gas can as 32:1 motul 800 2t
> 
> yamalube has AT LEAST 10% LESS oil in the gas can as motul 800 2t if used in same ratio. Makes a difference. and yeah 10% is a lot.



You're 100% correct, that's exactly how it works.


----------



## blsnelling

I had a new MS660 pulling 12K in the cut on K2 @ 40:1 yesterday. It still runs


----------



## tree monkey

I gave up reading this thread on page 173
I have a 440 that has well over 1000 gallons of gas through it
no signs of wear on the rings, piston or bearings
i'm using a tcw3 oil since new at 32-1
it's also ported
schaeffers two stroke


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> that is what you guys don't get.
> 
> The Quantity isn't the same.
> 
> 32:1 yamalube 2R doesn't have as much oil in the gas can as 32:1 motul 800 2t
> 
> yamalube has AT LEAST 10% LESS oil in the gas can as motul 800 2t if used in same ratio. Makes a difference. and yeah 10% is a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> Looked at your previous posts. I don't see a reason given.


Plug reading is only useful for determine wide up throttle mixture and then only when doing a plug chop with a brand new plug. You also must inspect the insulator where it meets the metal shell, not the nose.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> that is what you guys don't get.
> 
> The Quantity isn't the same.
> 
> 32:1 yamalube 2R doesn't have as much oil in the gas can as 32:1 motul 800 2t
> 
> yamalube has AT LEAST 10% LESS oil in the gas can as motul 800 2t if used in same ratio. Makes a difference. and yeah 10% is a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> Looked at your previous posts. I don't see a reason given.


Like I said before, the worst thing you did was read a MSDS.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> I had a new MS660 pulling 12K in the cut on K2 @ 40:1 yesterday. It still runs


Seriously?? 40:1?? I worked 12 hours yesterday and everything survived 40:1 Yamalube 2R they even seemed a little happier than 32:1 (maybe that was just my imagination, who knows) i can't can't believe 4 of my saws and 1 of your survived....the same day even.


----------



## HuskStihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Seriously?? 40:1?? I worked 12 hours yesterday and everything survived 40:1 Yamalube 2R they even seemed a little happier than 32:1 (maybe that was just my imagination, who knows) i can't can't believe 4 of my saws and 1 of your survived....the same day even.


You wanna hear something even crazier?! I ran out of belray, so I used _semi-_synthetic husky low smoke with 89 _ethanol containing _gas. I mixed somewhere between 32:1 and 40:1 _without using a graduated cylinder!_
I fell and bucked six trees with my SuperMike 288, and it ran great. Even nuttier, I put the crazy mix into my 326L trimmer, and ran that thing WOT for two hours in deep grass. With just my day, I'd call myself extremely lucky to have not destroyed one of the tools. Combined with y'all's recent experience, however, it's almost a trend.


----------



## KenJax Tree

HuskStihl said:


> You wanna hear something even crazier?! I ran out of belray, so I used _semi-_synthetic husky low smoke with 89 _ethanol containing _gas. I mixed somewhere between 32:1 and 40:1 _without using a graduated cylinder!_
> I fell and bucked six trees with my SuperMike 288, and it ran great. Even nuttier, I put the crazy mix into my 326L trimmer, and ran that thing WOT for two hours in deep grass. With just my day, I'd call myself extremely lucky to have not destroyed one of the tools. Combined with y'all's recent experience, however, it's almost a trend.


Lol yeah I see a pattern here[emoji1]


----------



## porsche965

I'll be cutting tomorrow....eenimeneminemo!


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I had a new MS660 pulling 12K in the cut on K2 @ 40:1 yesterday. It still runs


You forgot to tell everyone you were also running an ounce of Marvel mystery oil.[emoji8]


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> I had a new MS660 pulling 12K in the cut on K2 @ 40:1 yesterday. It still runs


Whats no load RPM on that saw ?


----------



## Flatie

KG441c said:


> Is carbon on top of the piston normal and why?


Im not the best person to answer but an engine with some run time on it will have carbon on the pistons it as a by-product of even just burning fuel. Ever opened up a car engine and seen the pistons clean?


----------



## blsnelling

This tops it all! I put Sears 50:1 in my ported 346 to finish up a little limbing last week!!! I wouldn't have used it to do any serious bu


Moparmyway said:


> Whats no load RPM on that saw ?


13,800


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> This tops it all! I put Sears 50:1 in my ported 346 to finish up a little limbing last week!!! I wouldn't have used it to do any serious bu
> 
> 13,800


The 346 didn't seize instantly? I don't quite believe it. I bet it did fall over from it not being fed 32:1 full synthetic super castor oil[emoji48]


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Im not the best person to answer but an engine with some run time on it will have carbon on the pistons it as a by-product of even just burning fuel. Ever opened up a car engine and seen the pistons clean?


Clean pistons indicate very rich carb tuning.


----------



## KG441c

Flatie said:


> Im not the best person to answer but an engine with some run time on it will have carbon on the pistons it as a by-product of even just burning fuel. Ever opened up a car engine and seen the pistons clean?


Thats what Ive seen on almost all engines tuned properly. If it stays super clean its probably tuned way to rich and washing the piston top?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Thats what Ive seen on almost all engines tuned properly. If it stays super clean its probably tuned way to rich and washing the piston top?


Yes.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Clean pistons indicate very rich carb tuning.


Are there any downsides to running this rich or will it promote a longer life?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Are there any downsides to running this rich or will it promote a longer life?


Washing the cylinder walls of oil with raw fuel isn't a good thing.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Washing the cylinder walls of oil with raw fuel isn't a good thing.


Except it isnt raw fuel ............. its mixxed with oil, and according to you .............. its evaporated, so how is it washing anything ?


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> O
> 
> Lots of mettalics in it and its end point is such that it's hard to get complete combustion with the loads I am dealing with. It's great oil when used in the right applications.


So lets say its doesn't combust as readily as K2 wouldnt that be better that it pukes it out the exhaust as opposed to possibly leaving more carbon?


----------



## Ron660

The Loggers I've talked to that mix oil/fuel at 25:1 - 40:1, their saws last longer than at 50:1 mix. They're not using "racing oils" either. This shows ANY 2-cycle oil, cheap or name-brand, will allow your saw to last a LONG time if you use enough oil (2.5% or more). When I run out of 800 off-road I'm trying the cheapest 2-cycle oil, mixed at 32:1, and compare.


----------



## Mastermind

Well I've burned well over one quart of Yamalube 2R @ 32:1. The 562XP of Jon's and my 346XP have burned the most of it. The 562XP is running at a new level of performance. 

All I have to say is this. 

Thanks RedBull660 for doing this test. I was more than skeptical......but from what I've seen the A/T and M/T saws do not do well on H1R @ 32:1. I will not use any ratio at less than 32:1, so I changed oil. 

Yamalube 2R is clean burning, has no smell, tunes like any OE oil, and the purple color makes it easy to tell that it really is a mixed fuel you're pouring in the saw.....

I'll report back after a few more quarts.


----------



## glock37

so the 3 quarts of h1r is no good to me anymore

I got a lot of oil to burn now I guess ill have to mix it 40 to 1 then and be done its good oil and wont hurt a thing

I got a quart for a guy that mills with a 880 and he burnt it up again at 50 to 1 stihl ultra he knocked the intake clamp off 

im recommending to him 32 to 1 belray for milling double 880's on a 9 ft bar


----------



## Whitespider

Ron660 said:


> *When I run out of 800 off-road I'm trying the cheapest 2-cycle oil, mixed at 32:1, and compare.*


I've always been of the belief that any oil with a well known brand name label (someone with a reputation to protect) will be of high quality... regardless of what certifications it may or may not carry. With 2-stroke small engines I shy away from oil with multiple mix ratios on the label, or those that claim to be "safe in _*all*_ two-cycle engines"... like I posted several pages back, in my experiences a Jack-of-all-trades is a master of none. (but, everybody ain't me)

There is no "oil test" or oil thread that's gonna' convince me to change what's worked (for me) for something over 20 years in several pieces of ***. It don't matter to me that it ain't the latest-'n'-greatest, all that matters to me is my stuff starts and runs when I need it to without breaking... what more can I ask for?? (but, everybody ain't me)

I ain't a pro... I don't use enough fuel to worry about a few pennies on the oil either way... so I don't price shop. (but, everybody ain't me)
I don't have any ported/modified equipment (yet ), so I mix it at the ratio I mix it at. (but, everybody ain't me)
Am I sayin' I'll never change?? Nope, I don't burn bridges behind me. But I am sayin', after 230 pages, I ain't read anything to convince me I should change anything... so, as of today, I have no intention of changing anything. (but, everybody ain't me)

And finally, I will not slam, put-down, or denigrate anyone for making the choice to use whatever they want, at whatever ratio they feel comfortable with, for whatever their reasons... one thing this thread has shown for sure... everybody ain't me.
*


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Now yamalube is gonna fly off the shelves 

then..next year..it will be something else , and it will be garbage.

any predictions ?


----------



## Andyshine77

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Now yamalube is gonna fly off the shelves [emoji23]
> 
> then..next year..it will be something else , and it will be garbage.
> 
> any predictions ?


Sounds about right to me. [emoji6]


----------



## KG441c




----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> View attachment 426884



Yamalube...THE oilers choice for 2015.

Klotz...THE oilers choice for 2016.

Sound right ?


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Yamalube...THE oilers choice for 2015.
> 
> Klotz...THE oilers choice for 2016.
> 
> Sound right ?


Klotz #1 always!


----------



## NWCoaster

tree monkey said:


> I gave up reading this thread on page 173
> I have a 440 that has well over 1000 gallons of gas through it
> no signs of wear on the rings, piston or bearings
> i'm using a tcw3 oil since new at 32-1
> it's also ported
> schaeffers two stroke


Awwwww, isn't that cute.... Mastermind when he was a little feller......


----------



## blsnelling

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Now yamalube is gonna fly off the shelves
> 
> then..next year..it will be something else , and it will be garbage.
> 
> any predictions ?


Exactly. No testing what so ever has been done to show that any one oil is any better than another (except that H1-R doesn't seem to burn so well, at least in MTronic saws at 32:1). That's why I tell my customers, pick a good full synthetic oil that's available locally, and run it 32:1, no less than 40:1. You're not going to go wrong with that recommendation.


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Klotz #1 always!


Another great choice.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Exactly. No testing what so ever has been done to show that any one oil is any better than another (except that H1-R doesn't seem to burn so well, at least in MTronic saws at 32:1). That's why I tell my customers, pick a good full synthetic oil that's available locally, and run it 32:1, no less than 40:1. You're not going to go wrong with that recommendation.


No one here is capable of conducting a truly scientific test to prove what oils is best. As such I reccomend running an oil carrying the latest air cooled certifications or one with a very long track record of good performance like 2r.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Washing the cylinder walls of oil with raw fuel isn't a good thing.





Moparmyway said:


> Except it isnt raw fuel ............. its mixxed with oil, and according to you .............. its evaporated, so how is it washing anything ?



@bwalker
You are avoiding answering questions ....................... is Google taking too long for ya ?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> @bwalker
> You are avoiding answering questions ....................... is Google taking too long for ya ?


If the air/fuel ratio is rich enough to wash a piston clean the motor is running cool enough that a good portion of the fuel isn't vaporised.
I know this is some strange concept to you, but it is FACT that liquid gasoline can't be combusted and in a properly running motor fuel that reaches the combustion chamber is in a gaseous state.
Instead of trying, albeit feebly to discredit me, why don't you try to correct your ignorance?
And for the record, I didn't see your stupidity earlier or I would have addressed it then.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> So lets say its doesn't combust as readily as K2 wouldnt that be better that it pukes it out the exhaust as opposed to possibly leaving more carbon?


No, because partially burnt/ unburnt oil leads to carbon. Especially in the exhaust port.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> No, because partially burnt/ unburnt oil leads to carbon. Especially in the exhaust port.


What's the definition of a clean burning oil? What should the piston crown and exhaust port look like? I guess I'm too rich since my piston crown and exhaust port, 660 & 036, is almost spotless after two liters of 800.


----------



## KG441c

1 liter of 800t in a ported 461 tuned @14200 to 14400


----------



## cuttinties

Hmm


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> No, because partially burnt/ unburnt oil leads to carbon. Especially in the exhaust port.


Does racing fuel, like Sunoco 110, burn cleaner than regular gas in a premix?


----------



## cuttinties

Ron660 said:


> Does racing fuel, like Sunoco 110, burn cleaner than regular gas in a premix?


The trapped compression ratio is far too low on a saw to see any benefits of higher octane fuel


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> No, because partially burnt/ unburnt oil leads to carbon. Especially in the exhaust port.


Does racing fuel, like Sunoco 110, burn cleaner than regular gas in a premix?


cuttinties said:


> The trapped compression ratio is far too low on a saw to see any benefits of higher octane fuel


I've tested 110 vs 93 in my ported 660 with a 212psi compression. The 110 tuned to 13,500 and the 93 tuned to 13900. The 110 cut times were greater than 10% faster.


----------



## cuttinties

Ron660 said:


> Does racing fuel, like Sunoco 110, burn cleaner than regular gas in a premix?
> 
> I've tested 110 vs 93 in my ported 660 with a 212psi compression. The 110 tuned to 13,500 and the 93 tuned to 13900. The 110 cut times were greater than 10% faster.


I'd be willing to bet you have the only saw that sees gains from high octane. If it were so much faster please explain why it's not used in race saws?


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> I'd be willing to bet you have the only saw that sees gains from high octane. If it were so much faster please explain why it's not used in race saws?


I can only report my results. I repeated it several times with the same results. My limited tests showed you need at least 205 compression or more to see any benefits. I have a compression ratio chart that has been 100% accurate.


----------



## cuttinties

Ron660 said:


> I can only report my results. I repeated it several times with the same results. My limited tests showed you need at least 205 compression or more to see any benefits. I have a compression ratio chart that has been 100% accurate.


Did you remove the cylinder to calculate?


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> Did you remove the cylinder to calculate?[/QUOTE
> Nothing complicated here...it's simple. Just do the following:
> 1). Put in your 93 premix and tune if necessary. Video several cuts.
> 2). Put in your 110 premix and retune if necessary. Video several cuts.
> 3). Check your times. There's your winner.
> Both were mixed at 32:1


----------



## cuttinties

The only way to calculate trapped compression ratio is by knowing the distance from the exhaust port roof to the top of the combustion chamber. You can't do that with the cylinder off. So your chart is wrong


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Does racing fuel, like Sunoco 110, burn cleaner than regular gas in a premix?
> 
> I've tested 110 vs 93 in my ported 660 with a 212psi compression. The 110 tuned to 13,500 and the 93 tuned to 13900. The 110 cut times were greater than 10% faster.


Sunoco 110 has a distillation curve made for four strokes and would make two strokes run less than perfect, so I am supprised by your results.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Does racing fuel, like Sunoco 110, burn cleaner than regular gas in a premix?


Depends in which racing fuel.


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> The only way to calculate trapped compression ratio is by knowing the distance from the exhaust port roof to the top of the combustion chamber. You can't do that with the cylinder off. So your chart is wrong


Every saw I've texted against the chart has been 100% accurate. I had doubts also until I ran tests.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Depends in which racing fuel.


Ron66p has the Sunoco 110 Standard not the turbo


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Sunoco 110 has a distillation curve made for four strokes and would make two strokes run less than perfect, so I am supprised by your results.


Chad put them against each other on a dyno and they were almost identical in HP with some deviations at certain rpms. I can only report my findings. They also carry 112 Sunoco. That 110 purple-colored Sunoco smells good with Motul.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Sunoco 110 Standard not the turbo


From drums or a pump?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> From drums or a pump?


Sealed drum


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> From drums or a pump?


Drum


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> I can only report my results. I repeated it several times with the same results. My limited tests showed you need at least 205 compression or more to see any benefits. I have a compression ratio chart that has been 100% accurate.



I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.


----------



## cuttinties

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.


I don't like compression in saws I want to be fast. (there's a difference in fast and usable) my 4 and 5 cube saws are blowing around 140lbs


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> I don't like compression in saws I want to be fast. (there's a difference in fast and usable) my 4 and 5 cube saws are blowing around 140lbs


I prefer high compression....more torque


----------



## cuttinties

Ron660 said:


> I prefer high compression....more torque


I was talking about going fast not working. I build my work saws differently.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Sealed drum


Keith, you should test your high compression 461 and 390xp with 110 to see if you get the same results.


----------



## Ron660

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.


In big wood? 30" +??


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.





SAWMIKAZE said:


> I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.


Pumping loss related?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> I prefer high compression....more torque



Ive ran them..i didnt see it , and if its there its small on the saws ive ran..i wouldnt want one of my workers on a hot summer day blowin over 200 Rippin the cord through my fingers since im already aggravated enough sweatin my ass off..im open to the idea of it , But i havent seen it first hand..every cutter ive worked with feels the same way.


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> I was talking about going fast not working. I build my work saws differently.


Ok I see. My saws aren't for racing but I've won a lot of beer racing hunting buddies and Loggers.


----------



## Ron660

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Ive ran them..i didnt see it , and if its there its small on the saws ive ran..i wouldnt want one of my workers on a hot summer day blowin over 200 Rippin the cord through my fingers since im already aggravated enough sweatin my ass off..im open to the idea of it , But i havent seen it first hand..every cutter ive worked with feels the same way.


The Loggers that's used my 660 wanted to buy it. I didn't tell'em it was ported though!!


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Drum


I'd guess it woukd be better,but only because pump fuel is so nasty now days. A race fuel suited for a two cycle woukd be even better yet.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> The Loggers that's used my 660 wanted to buy it. I didn't tell'em it was ported though!!



Like i said , im open to the idea i just havent seen a saw blowin 210 + or so smoke one with 185-190..i take nothing as the gospel on here , i try it for myself and thats just my observation.


----------



## Ron660

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.


What's not to like about a ported 660 pushing over 40% more HP than a stock 660??


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> What's not to like about a ported 660 pushing over 40% more HP than a stock 660??



Nothing..i didnt say there was.

What i did say was that i dont see the difference from one in the 180-190 range get spanked by one blowin over 200 is all.

My 461 blew 185 and handed some other saws in its range their ass with 28" bars..and those saws blew higher numbers.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I'd guess it woukd be better,but only because pump fuel is so nasty now days. A race fuel suited for a two cycle woukd be even better yet.


Maybe that's why my piston and exhaust port is so clean?? Racing fuel with 800. I'm using 110 and I think Keith is mixing his 110 with dispenser fuel...maybe 87 to get a 98 octane.


----------



## Flatie

KG441c said:


> View attachment 426967
> 
> 1 liter of 800t in a ported 461 tuned @14200 to 14400


Thoughts on this walker? Too little fuel run to gauge anything?


----------



## Trx250r180

Am curious if redbulls oil power output matches the 3 brands I have tried now,I could actually feel a top end and throttle response difference in 3 different brands milling with a 660


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Thoughts on this walker? Too little fuel run to gauge anything?


Looks slightly fat.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> If the air/fuel ratio is rich enough to wash a piston clean the motor is running cool enough that a good portion of the fuel isn't vaporised.
> I know this is some strange concept to you, but it is FACT that liquid gasoline can't be combusted and in a properly running motor fuel that reaches the combustion chamber is in a gaseous state.
> Instead of trying, albeit feebly to discredit me, why don't you try to correct your ignorance?
> And for the record, I didn't see your stupidity earlier or I would have addressed it then.


Despite your "sense of humor", I asked that you address the oil issue ............ not the fuel side. Stay on track boy.
We know if there is liquid, there is oil. "A good portion of the fuel isnt vaporized" means oil too !!!!
This is the issue I asked you to address, maybe without the insults this time ?


----------



## Moparmyway

cuttinties said:


> I'd be willing to bet you have the only saw that sees gains from high octane. If it were so much faster please explain why it's not used in race saws?


I am not too sure about that.
There might be at least one more.



SAWMIKAZE said:


> I really wanna see first hand one of these saws blowin over 200 psi smoke one in the 180-190 range , i havent yet..the best runners ive had my digits on were in the 180 range.


I can only tell you that the difference I have with mine is incredible. It went out @ 165psi (hot), and came back with 230-235psi (hot).
It sings a whole new tune now!!!

A full comp  36" .404 square filed running at 12,500 in the cut stumping .....(its the torque thats important)....... tuned to 14,000 no load with VP SEF and still 4 stroking like a fat pig playing in mud.


----------



## cuttinties

Moparmyway said:


> I am not too sure about that.
> There might be at least one more.


Trapped compression ratio is still too low.


----------



## Moparmyway

cuttinties said:


> Trapped compression ratio is still too low.


This is the widest squish, and smallest chamber I have ever seen for any 066/660


----------



## cuttinties

Moparmyway said:


> This is the widest squish, and smallest chamber I have ever seen for any 066/660


I'd be willing to bet that trapped compression still isn't over 8:1


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Looks slightly fat.


Isnt that contradicting what we have been saying? If its fat at 14400 wouldnt it be washing the piston instead of building carbon?


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> This is the widest squish, and smallest chamber I have ever seen for any 066/660


Is that the old stumpbreaker from Mdavlee?


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Is that the old stumpbreaker from *Mdavlee*?



       

It sure is !!!!


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> It sure is !!!!


Must be a great one as I know you have mentioned it several times. I bet it has alota grunt?


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> It sure is !!!!


Looks like ole Mike gave you the stumpbreakin squish removal amount!! Lol!!


----------



## Moparmyway

cuttinties said:


> I'd be willing to bet that trapped compression still isn't over 8:1


Next time I have it off, I will see what it is


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> No, because partially burnt/ unburnt oil leads to carbon. Especially in the exhaust port.


So unless milling you feel 800 doesnt fit the application.Got it. 

Do you think you would get the same carboned piston with 800 as your piston ran on K2 showed after the same run time? I ask because i've only ever seen pics with VERY little carbon on them with 800.


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Ive ran them..i didnt see it , and if its there its small on the saws ive ran..i wouldnt want one of my workers on a hot summer day blowin over 200 Rippin the cord through my fingers since im already aggravated enough sweatin my ass off..im open to the idea of it , But i havent seen it first hand..every cutter ive worked with feels the same way.


Watch your face when the rip cord pulls out of your hand ,could knock out a tooth .........

Hullo Skip


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Looks like ole Mike gave you the stumpbreakin squish removal amount!! Lol!!





Moparmyway said:


> Next time I have it off, I will see what it is


Yeah it was a bunch. Just wait for the next version for this one[emoji41]


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Moparmyway said:


> I am not too sure about that.
> There might be at least one more.
> 
> 
> I can only tell you that the difference I have with mine is incredible. It went out @ 165psi (hot), and came back with 230-235psi (hot).
> It sings a whole new tune now!!!
> 
> A full comp  36" .404 square filed running at 12,500 in the cut stumping .....(its the torque thats important)....... tuned to 14,000 no load with VP SEF and still 4 stroking like a fat pig playing in mud.




Ill have to try one to see it..i dont disagree because i dont know enough about it , its just been my observation.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Isnt that contradicting what we have been saying? If its fat at 14400 wouldnt it be washing the piston instead of building carbon?


Except the piston does show carbon, albeit not enough to cover the entire crown yet. Go a bit richer and the whole thing would be bare metal.


----------



## cuttinties

bwalker said:


> Except the piston does show carbon, albeit not enough to cover the entire crown yet. Go a bit richer and the whole thing would be bare metal.


Hard to show much when guys are looking for differences when only running a couple of liters. It's going to take 2 or 3 gallons to really see anything change IMO.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> So unless milling you feel 800 doesnt fit the application.Got it.
> 
> Do you think you would get the same carboned piston with 800 as your piston ran on K2 showed after the same run time? I ask because i've only ever seen pics with VERY little carbon on them with 800.


I do think 800 isn't the best choice for general use in a saw. It would work great when milling though.

I have ran 800 and always had carbon on my pistons with appropriate wash.


----------



## Moparmyway

cuttinties said:


> Hard to show much when guys are looking for differences when only running a couple of liters. It's going to take 2 or 3 gallons to really see anything change IMO.


I have seen changes in 2 tankfulls


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Except the piston does show carbon, albeit not enough to cover the entire crown yet. Go a bit richer and the whole thing would be bare metal.


Ok thats the way I was thinking also. Just making sure I wasnt backwards


----------



## bwalker

cuttinties said:


> Hard to show much when guys are looking for differences when only running a couple of liters. It's going to take 2 or 3 gallons to really see anything change IMO.


Some truth to that, but after an entire liter of oil in a saw sized motor wash should be developed.


----------



## cuttinties

Moparmyway said:


> I have seen changes in 2 tankfulls


I mix 2.5 gallons a day. And for me to tell any real difference I need to run it a day or 2. I like a definitive change not small increments.


----------



## KG441c

cuttinties said:


> I mix 2.5 gallons a day. And for me to tell any real difference I need to run it a day or 2. I like a definitive change not small increments.


Does your saw develop carbon across the piston?


----------



## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> Does your saw develop carbon across the piston?


Very minimal carbon on the piston or exhaust port. Keep them tuned and run'em like you stole 'em.


----------



## KG441c

cuttinties said:


> Very minimal carbon on the piston or exhaust port. Keep them tuned and run'em like you stole 'em.


How much compared to the pic I posted? That was only 8 gal.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> How much compared to the pic I posted? That was only 8 gal.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Washing the cylinder walls of oil with raw fuel isn't a good thing.





Moparmyway said:


> Except it isnt raw fuel ............. its mixxed with oil, and according to you .............. its evaporated, so how is it washing anything ?





Moparmyway said:


> @bwalker
> You are avoiding answering questions ....................... is Google taking too long for ya ?





Moparmyway said:


> Despite your "sense of humor", I asked that you address the oil issue ............ not the fuel side. Stay on track boy.
> We know if there is liquid, there is oil. "A good portion of the fuel isnt vaporized" means oil too !!!!
> This is the issue I asked you to address, maybe without the insults this time ?



@bwalker
You are avoiding answering questions again .......................


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> @bwalker
> You are avoiding answering questions again .......................


No, I never seen your post. What is your question?
And I never would avoid answering a question..


----------



## KG441c

I may have this all wrong but the way Im thinking is carbon on the crown is showing proper tune and an efficient complete combustion process. No carbon? Somethings amiss


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I may have this all wrong but the way Im thinking is carbon on the crown is showing proper tune and an efficient complete combustion process. No carbon? Somethings amiss


Yes.. even a four cycle motor running right has carbon coating the piston.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I can't remember the last time i saw any of my pistons[emoji33]


----------



## redbull660

Motul responded... 

*Redbull - *

Sir, couple more...

1) Is that because the lower viscosity of 710 having less film strength? ("Running the 710 at a ratio of 32:1 will not offer more protection than the 800 at 50:1.")

2) I know it says "above exising standards" but is 800 off road actually Jaso -FD certified? If not, why ?

3) Wouldn't checking your plug - just tell you if your tunning was incorrect?

4) I've heard that the metallics in 800 off road can lead to build up and would cause a great ignition source for pre ignition. Have you heard of this happening? Could you talk about the metallics in 800 off road? No offense intended. It's heresay I understand. I'm just concerned.


5) Do you think that the ported saw would require a heavier mix ratio? If so, why? If not, why?

6) If I run 800 too rich say between 25-32:1 what is going to happen to my saw (generally speaking) I'm thinking the excess oil would impead the piston movement some not allowing for max/optimal RPMs, and there would be some unburnt deposit build up


------------------------------------
*Motul Response:

1) The 800 is more protective because it is an Ester based product.

2) Technically the 800 is not JASO certified. It is not JASO certified because it is designed as a racing product thus it is not required to be JASO certified.

3) The mixture of premix is part of your tuning. The color of your plug will tell you if the premix is too rich, lean or perfect for the engine.

4) I am not sure where you heard that from, but that statement is false. 800 offroad is one of the cleanest burning premixes out there. Being an ester based product there is very little metallics in the product. Everyone that has used this product for chainsaws can't say enough about how clean their engines are after use.

5) I do not think that your ported saw will require a heavier mix ratio. Refer to the color of your plug for this information

6) Generally speaking like all two stroke engines a heavier mixture will make run sluggish and spew oil out of the exhaust. 


Regards,

Jon Muto
Marketing Coordinator
Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767
T 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | F 909-625-2697 | Cell 909-538-2091
[email protected]|www.motul.com

*


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Washing the cylinder walls of oil with raw fuel isn't a good thing.





bwalker said:


> No, I never seen your post. What is your question?
> And I never would avoid answering a question..


I am happy to see that you arent avoiding answering, must have been me.
How is raw fuel washing the cylinder walls of oil, if it has oil with it ?


----------



## redbull660

this motul guy is no where near the caliber as Andrew

and that doesn't mean I think h1r will be the winner in all this.

Andrew has provided *by far* the best answers out of everyone I've talked to...some really really great info. Of course Andrew is the actual formulator of the product vs this dude is a sales guy.


----------



## KenJax Tree

What makes you really think you're talking to the guy that formulated H1-R? Because he said he did?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> What makes you really think you're talking to the guy that formulated H1-R? Because he said he did?


Awhile back I talked to several techs at different companies. The motul guys couldnt anwser the questions and had to contact their parent company and get back to me. The guy at Maxima had a convincing anwser for all my questions


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> What makes you really think you're talking to the guy that formulated H1-R? Because he said he did?



oh hell I forgot my tin foil hat! the EPA black choppa's are coming for ya kenjax.

If you actually read any of his answers. Pretty obvious he's not a sales guy nor some typical tech desk jockey. 



KG441c said:


> Awhile back I talked to several techs at different companies. The motul guys couldnt anwser the questions and had to contact their parent company and get back to me. The guy at Maxima had a convincing anwser for all my questions



yeah the maxima guy was pretty decent dude.
---------------------

and for the record I don't agree with all of what the motul dude says. I'm just posting what he wrote.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> oh hell I forgot my tin foil hat! the EPA black choppa's are coming for ya kenjax.


Just wondering how gullible you are[emoji6]


----------



## porsche965

Gullible? Isn't that what an oil thread is all about?


----------



## KenJax Tree

That's a lot of wood on the ground for using 10% solvents @ 40:1[emoji1] now it takes 2 groundtards to knock the spar over


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> That's a lot of wood on the ground for using 10% solvents @ 40:1[emoji1] now it takes 2 groundtards to knock the spar overView attachment 427108



So your really running 44:1 so what. What's your point? 

*I didn't say anything (solvents) was bad. I just said you can't run all oils at the same ratio and expect the same performance!*

*The solvents have to be discounted/accounted for when figuring the mix.*

WHAT PART OF THAT DON"T YOU COMPREHEND?!?!?!?????????


btw - what kind of tree is that?


----------



## cuttinties

redbull660 said:


> So your really running 44:1 so what. What's your point? I didn't say anything (solvents) was bad. I just said you can't run all oils at the same ratio and expect the same performance!
> 
> WHAT PART OF THAT DON"T YOU COMPREHEND?!?!?!?????????
> 
> 
> btw - what kind of tree is that?


Appears to be Silver Maple


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> So your really running 44:1 so what. What's your point?
> 
> *I didn't say anything (solvents) was bad. I just said you can't run all oils at the same ratio and expect the same performance!*
> 
> *The solvents have to be discounted/accounted for when figuring the mix.*
> 
> WHAT PART OF THAT DON"T YOU COMPREHEND?!?!?!?????????
> 
> 
> btw - what kind of tree is that?


Just sayin' nothing blew up and 32:1 isn't magic....and yes its a Silver Maple


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I am happy to see that you arent avoiding answering, must have been me.
> How is raw fuel washing the cylinder walls of oil, if it has oil with it ?


If the temps are cool enough to wash the piston clean, the cylinder walls can be washed ss well. Liquid pre mix is a terrible lubricant, but a good solvent.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Motul responded...
> 
> *Redbull - *
> 
> Sir, couple more...
> 
> 1) Is that because the lower viscosity of 710 having less film strength? ("Running the 710 at a ratio of 32:1 will not offer more protection than the 800 at 50:1.")
> 
> 2) I know it says "above exising standards" but is 800 off road actually Jaso -FD certified? If not, why ?
> 
> 3) Wouldn't checking your plug - just tell you if your tunning was incorrect?
> 
> 4) I've heard that the metallics in 800 off road can lead to build up and would cause a great ignition source for pre ignition. Have you heard of this happening? Could you talk about the metallics in 800 off road? No offense intended. It's heresay I understand. I'm just concerned.
> 
> 
> 5) Do you think that the ported saw would require a heavier mix ratio? If so, why? If not, why?
> 
> 6) If I run 800 too rich say between 25-32:1 what is going to happen to my saw (generally speaking) I'm thinking the excess oil would impead the piston movement some not allowing for max/optimal RPMs, and there would be some unburnt deposit build up
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> *Motul Response:
> 
> 1) The 800 is more protective because it is an Ester based product.
> 
> 2) Technically the 800 is not JASO certified. It is not JASO certified because it is designed as a racing product thus it is not required to be JASO certified.
> 
> 3) The mixture of premix is part of your tuning. The color of your plug will tell you if the premix is too rich, lean or perfect for the engine.
> 
> 4) I am not sure where you heard that from, but that statement is false. 800 offroad is one of the cleanest burning premixes out there. Being an ester based product there is very little metallics in the product. Everyone that has used this product for chainsaws can't say enough about how clean their engines are after use.
> 
> 5) I do not think that your ported saw will require a heavier mix ratio. Refer to the color of your plug for this information
> 
> 6) Generally speaking like all two stroke engines a heavier mixture will make run sluggish and spew oil out of the exhaust.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jon Muto
> Marketing Coordinator
> Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767
> T 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | F 909-625-2697 | Cell 909-538-2091
> [email protected]|www.motul.com
> *


That guy is clueless. No mettalics? In fact it had the highest amount of mettalics I have seen in a two cycle oil and I posted the test results to prove it.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> So your really running 44:1 so what. What's your point?
> 
> *I didn't say anything (solvents) was bad. I just said you can't run all oils at the same ratio and expect the same performance!*
> 
> *The solvents have to be discounted/accounted for when figuring the mix.*
> 
> WHAT PART OF THAT DON"T YOU COMPREHEND?!?!?!?????????
> 
> 
> btw - what kind of tree is that?


You should be able to run an oil at any ratio the engine requires. FORGET solvents exist.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *And I never would avoid answering a question..*


 Thanks  I love a good joke 
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Thanks  I love a good joke
> *


Well maybe yours, but only because they are ridiculous..


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Well maybe yours, but only because they are ridiculous..*


Hmmm...
Maybe you shouldn't use the word never than??



bwalker said:


> *And I never would avoid answering a question..*


*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Nice... feel better??
> I know I do.
> 
> I fail to see how it's ridiculous to ask why I should care for owl crap what the Japanese or Europeans say or do... after all, you're the one giving them Superman status. You're the one labeling everything as "sludge" if ain't _Japanese_ FD _certified_. I'm thinkin' the ridiculous ain't on my part... not by a long shot (from a Glock or otherwise). I mean... c'mon... the very idea it _*has to be*_ _certified_ by an _overseas organization_... really??
> 
> Friggin' magic I say... friggin' magic‼
> *


I could argue your overseas comment by pointing out the API dropped it's two cycle certification program years ago..
The only owl poop is between your ears.


----------



## Flatie

Whitespider said:


> Nice... feel better??
> I know I do.
> 
> I fail to see how it's ridiculous to ask why I should care for owl crap what the Japanese or Europeans say or do... after all, you're the one giving them Superman status. You're the one labeling everything as "sludge" if ain't _Japanese_ FD _certified_. I'm thinkin' the ridiculous ain't on my part... not by a long shot (from a Glock or otherwise). I mean... c'mon... the very idea it _*has to be*_ _certified_ by an _overseas organization_... really??
> 
> Friggin' magic I say... friggin' magic‼
> *



Walker is right JASO albeit japanese is a very high standard that is world recognized.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Has anyone figured out the best ratio to use yet? My saws are getting impatient waiting for the verdict.


----------



## CR500

Gypo Logger said:


> Has anyone figured out the best ratio to use yet? My saws are getting impatient waiting for the verdict.


32:1 and forget it.

Like said many moons ago, I'm okay with some slight miniscule performance loss, if it means the saw will live a healthier life. Plus 4 ounces to a gallon is pretty easy to remember

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *I could argue your overseas comment by pointing out the API dropped it's two cycle certification program years ago...*


So what??
That still ain't answering my questions.



Flatie said:


> *Walker is right JASO albeit japanese is a very high standard that is world recognized.*


World recognized??
Obviously the Europeans don't recognize it... they instituted their own (and you may want to research why).
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> So what??
> That still ain't answering my questions.
> 
> 
> World recognized??
> Obviously the Europeans don't recognize it... they instituted their own (and you may want to research why).
> *


The European standards virtually mirror JASO and in fact use the same test equipement and procedures. The only differance between ISO EGD and JASO FD is that ISO requires a slightly longer test and slightly better cleanliness. Most FD oils will also pass EGD.


----------



## NWCoaster

Gypo Logger said:


> Has anyone figured out the best ratio to use yet? My saws are getting impatient waiting for the verdict.


Well yes, the answer is....................... I dunno, I'm just making sheet up just like everybody else. But I would say that it depends on what oil you are using and the application of the chainsaw. I don't think you can go wrong with a 40:1 mix.... heck , even that Bel-ray crap will burn kinda clean at that ratio as long as it is not tuned filthy rich. And most of the other oils will burn very clean from what people are reporting.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *The European standards virtually mirror JASO...*


Once again... so what??
The "standards" may be near identical, but the testing used to determine if the "standard" is met, is not the same.
You put way too much stock in symbolism rather than substance.

The comment was that the JASO standard was "very high" and "world recognized".
I merely pointed out that "world recognized" is incorrect... Europe is a fairly significant chunk of the "world" wouldn't you say??
Then I hinted that researching the reason Europe instituted their own standards and testing may be enlightening.

I'd guess you like magic shows... I'd even guess you pay hard earned cash for the privilege of being deceived by the magician... am I correct??
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Once again... so what??
> The "standards" may be near identical, but the testing used to determine if the "standard" is met, is not the same.
> You put way too much stock in symbolism rather than substance.
> 
> The comment was that the JASO standard was "very high" and "world recognized".
> I merely pointed out that "world recognized" is incorrect... Europe is a fairly significant chunk of the "world" wouldn't you say??
> Then I hinted that researching the reason Europe instituted their own standards and testing may be enlightening.
> 
> I'd guess you like magic shows... I'd even guess you pay hard earned cash for the privilege of being deceived by the magician... am I correct??
> *


Your sorting fly shat from pepper..


----------



## Ron660

Has anyone ever had an engine failure due to ANY BRAND of 2-cycle oil mixed at 32:1?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ron660 said:


> Has anyone ever had an engine failure due to ANY BRAND of 2-cycle oil mixed at 32:1?


Doubtful....i've never had one at 40:1 and im sure many others haven't at 50:1.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Yes.. even a four cycle motor running right has carbon coating the piston.


I dont think folks see it that way here. They r thinkin some oil will make the saw walk on water and stay 100% clean. I see it more as a lack of understanding the combustion processs and a byproduct


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I dont think folks see it that way here. They r thinkin some oil will make the saw walk on water and stay 100% clean. I see it more as a lack of understanding the combustion processs and a byproduct


Its true, understanding is pretty low here.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Its true, understanding is pretty low here.


Do octanes such as 87 efree and 110 race fuel produce different levels of carbon?


----------



## Trx250r180

I am glad I do not have a 661


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Do octanes such as 87 efree and 110 race fuel produce different levels of carbon?


Likely.


----------



## windthrown

RedFir Down said:


> Bushy ape is that you again?... You are relentless to say the least.



Yes, looks like BA is laying a fat turd again after being shut down as other aliases. Like he knows anything about anything, particularly running a ported 661 with 32:1 oil. 

Of course, maybe it is MikeFromSpain, or StillTheQueer. There are so many trolls here now, it is hard to keep up with all the multiple personas.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Your sorting fly shat from pepper.*


No...
I’m sorting symbolism from substance, deception from truth, magic from reality, opinion from fact, and BS from veracity... I grind my seasoning pepper from fresh peppercorns.
*


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> I dont think folks see it that way here. They r thinkin some oil will make the saw walk on water and stay 100% clean. I see it more as a lack of understanding the combustion processs and a byproduct


No so sure about that.

The combustion process and its byproducts are basically a given.
Each individual tunes to produce desired results
Some desire every little last drop of power
Some desire longevity

I dont mind a little carbon on the piston tops, but I preferr clean.
I believe clean is better, and nobody will convince me otherwise
When tuned to run clean, my saws run cool and have never given me any problems.
When they were producing carbon, I had to swap plugs a few times, some due to carbon nuggets getting wedged between the sparkplug ground and electrode
If them nuggets can get in the plug gap, they can also get into the rings and the ring lands ................
I preferr no carbon, thank you.
No damage is being done, and whatever is washing the piston tops and cylinders is leaving a nice oily residue ................ cant say that when I was making carbon.
If I want every last ounce of performance, I will tune for it .............. but my saws aint cutting cookies, they are working and making me cabbage


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Do octanes such as 87 efree and 110 race fuel produce different levels of carbon?





bwalker said:


> Likely.



I am 100% absolutely sure that they do !
A quality canned fuel (like VP SEF) runs soooo much cleaner than any pump gas I have ever tried.
The saws also run better on the VP than any pump fuel I have ever tried.

Will the saws blow up on pump gas, not likely if tuned properly.


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> No so sure about that.
> 
> The combustion process and its byproducts are basically a given.
> Each individual tunes to produce desired results
> Some desire every little last drop of power
> Some desire longevity
> 
> I dont mind a little carbon on the piston tops, but I preferr clean.
> I believe clean is better, and nobody will convince me otherwise
> When tuned to run clean, my saws run cool and have never given me any problems.
> When they were producing carbon, I had to swap plugs a few times, some due to carbon nuggets getting wedged between the sparkplug ground and electrode
> If them nuggets can get in the plug gap, they can also get into the rings and the ring lands ................
> I preferr no carbon, thank you.
> No damage is being done, and whatever is washing the piston tops and cylinders is leaving a nice oily residue ................ cant say that when I was making carbon.
> If I want every last ounce of performance, I will tune for it .............. but my saws aint cutting cookies, they are working and making me cabbage


Not sure I can agree with you on that one as I believe some carbon buildup is normal on the crown. I prefer not to see it on the exhaust and ring lands. Several top porters here told me what they like to see on the crown and thats what Im sticking with for now. I dont believe u will have a choice on the carbon with mtronics because u cant tune it way rich to wash


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Not sure I can agree with you on that one as I believe some carbon buildup is normal on the crown. I prefer not to see it on the exhaust and ring lands. Several top porters here told me what they like to see on the crown and thats what Im sticking with for now. I dont believe u will have a choice on the carbon with mtronics because u cant tune it way rich to wash


Different fuels and different oils will produce different results with M-Tronic

Some carbon buildup is generally considered as normal or ideal, I doubt anyone will disagree.
Each dude will have a preference on how his stuff is ran, and what the desired results are .................. like a favorite color, we each have our favorites


----------



## Bwildered

RedFir Down said:


> Bushy ape is that you again?... You are relentless to say the least.


Even though I may resemble the description of being bushy & apelike, no!
Thansk


----------



## Bwildered

windthrown said:


> Yes, looks like BA is laying a fat turd again after being shut down as other aliases. Like he knows anything about anything, particularly running a ported 661 with 32:1 oil.
> 
> Of course, maybe it is MikeFromSpain, or StillTheQueer. There are so many trolls here now, it is hard to keep up with all the multiple personas.


Seeing you or I don't own a 661 generally it's always a good idea to look listen & watch to those who have actually conducted some tests verified by Independant witnesses.
Thansk


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## NWCoaster

KG441c said:


> Wth??? U must be a real fag! I happen to agree with bwalkers theories?


 Ooooohhh ... good one.


----------



## KG441c

NWCoaster said:


> I say whats on MY mind.... you say whats on Bwalkers mind ( kissing his butt) .... It just becomes a little old after a while,,,, kinda reminds me of Chester and Spike on Looney Tunes.... come on Spike ... come on, can we go chase the cat Spike... huh Spike....Lol. PS... I don't like Glocks, so that aint gonna happen.....


Dont have time for it man. Have a good day


----------



## NWCoaster

KG441c said:


> Dont have time for it man. Have a good day


 Ok... you too.


----------



## tree monkey

it's been a really long winter


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> There are a few WAAAAAAY worse here than Keith just agreeing with someone. Its obsession like.


 True enough.... I should be on better behaviour. I officially apologize to Keith.... I shouldn't be yanking anybody's chain so early in the morning.


----------



## KG441c

NWCoaster said:


> True enough.... I should be on better behaviour. I officially apologize to Keith.... I shouldn't be yanking anybody's chain so early in the morning.


No big deal man! This site is a form of education for me and entertainment. I wasnt kissing anyones ass but simply learning and agreeing with bwalker. Lord knows I have bigger things to worry about like waiting on my biopsy to come back to see if I have colon cancer and my 17yr old son in rehab for drug addiction. Dont think your words will dent me too bad right now


----------



## KenJax Tree

Wow Keith! I hope for a negative test and the best for your son.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Let's all suck start our 084's!


----------



## redbull660

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 427286
> Let's all suck start our 084's!



Seriously... WTF on that one!


----------



## NWCoaster

KG441c said:


> No big deal man! This site is a form of education for me and entertainment. I wasnt kissing anyones ass but simply learning amd agreeing with bwalker. Lord knows I have bigger things to worry about like waiting on my biopsy to come back to see if I have colon cancer and my 17yr old son in rehab for drug addiction. Dont think your words will dent me too bad right now


 Holy crap man..... Wow, I hope everything comes out ok.... that kind of thing can definately weigh on you. Definitely just jacking with you this morning and I agree with you, this site is mostly just for entertainment and the odd thing possibly learned. We are always horrible to each other in a freindly kind of way In the shop I work in (which is a lot of fun) .... but that doesnt always come across as joking around when done on an internet site.


----------



## Gypo Logger

redbull660 said:


> Seriously... WTF on that one!


I don't get it either. I guess it's just a suck start fad. Lol


----------



## NWCoaster

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 427286
> Let's all suck start our 084's!


 Lol, that one cracked me up.... wish I had an 084.


----------



## Moparmyway

Gypo Logger said:


> I don't get it either. I guess it's just a suck start fad. Lol


While this might very well be 100% true  
I like that pipe. Its hydroformed.  
Removable head ............ DANG .............. still need a lathe


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> No big deal man! This site is a form of education for me and entertainment. I wasnt kissing anyones ass but simply learning and agreeing with bwalker. Lord knows I have bigger things to worry about like waiting on my biopsy to come back to see if I have colon cancer and my 17yr old son in rehab for drug addiction. Dont think your words will dent me too bad right now


Sorry to hear Keith. Will keep you and your son in our prayers. Good luck !


----------



## Whitespider




----------



## Hedgerow

tree monkey said:


> it's been a really long winter


Check yer PM's monkey man!!


----------



## Gypo Logger

I'm wondering what ratio is better. It appears that 32:1 is trending.


----------



## Moparmyway

Hedgerow said:


> Check yer PM's monkey man!!


Devious plans for a 385 eh ?????


----------



## Hedgerow

Moparmyway said:


> Devious plans for a 385 eh ?????


Ha!

No...

Baby saw...


----------



## windthrown

Gypo Logger said:


> I'm wondering what ratio is better. It appears that 32:1 is trending.



Well, considering that that the strato saws use less fuel, upward of what, 20%? One would think that you would at least have to go with 40:1 to get the same lubrication as with a standard pre-EPA saw at 50:1. That is one of several reasons I flipped to using 3oz./per gal. in my mixed fleet of saws (strato and non-strato, and some older Jreds I got my hands on that want 32:1). Oops, are some of my saws missing from my list here?

Of course this thread has gone the way of the phucktards, ghay bashers and troller posts, I think your suck start photo is a perfect fit. Now everybody put your oiled up throbbing members back in your pants or they are gonna lock this thread up... again!


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> Seriously... WTF on that one!


Maybe a different way of checking the tune.


----------



## KG441c

http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/OIL/oil.html


----------



## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/OIL/oil.html


Note: Pennzoil uses this article as an advertising brochure. The last paragraph is a lot like an advertisement, but I thought the article in general was quite informative. I am not advocating the use of Pennzoil, nor is this an advertisement for them. This article is quite relevant wether or not you decide to use Pennzoil. 



This is at the bottom of that link. So once again we're stuck with opinions. Your efforts are appreciated though.


----------



## KG441c

http://www.smellofdeath.com/lloydy/piston_diag_guide.htm


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> No so sure about that.
> 
> The combustion process and its byproducts are basically a given.
> Each individual tunes to produce desired results
> Some desire every little last drop of power
> Some desire longevity
> 
> I dont mind a little carbon on the piston tops, but I preferr clean.
> I believe clean is better, and nobody will convince me otherwise
> When tuned to run clean, my saws run cool and have never given me any problems.
> When they were producing carbon, I had to swap plugs a few times, some due to carbon nuggets getting wedged between the sparkplug ground and electrode
> If them nuggets can get in the plug gap, they can also get into the rings and the ring lands ................
> I preferr no carbon, thank you.
> No damage is being done, and whatever is washing the piston tops and cylinders is leaving a nice oily residue ................ cant say that when I was making carbon.
> If I want every last ounce of performance, I will tune for it .............. but my saws aint cutting cookies, they are working and making me cabbage


That washing is also washing oil of the cylinder walls. Liquid pre mix is. A terrible lubricant.
It's funny that you guys will argue for Yeats which 70cc saw is best, then tune so rich that any advantage goes out the window.


----------



## Hedgerow

There's work tune..

And then there's play tune..


Not a huge difference, but some..


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> There's work tune..
> 
> And then there's play tune..
> 
> 
> Not a huge difference, but some..


I agree, but most run way rich from what I can tell. That's why Autotune and Mtronic are a good thing..


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/OIL/oil.html


Remove carbon buildup on the piston crown after a 0.040 buildup! That doesn't seem like much.


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> I agree, but most run way rich from what I can tell. That's why Autotune and Mtronic are a good thing..


Yeah.. I'd run more on the edge if I weren't cutting in 100 degree temps..
Now in cool weather, I can tune proper, and the saws seem to love it.. 
No overheating at all..
Barring some other issue..
But I ain't lost one yet..


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Remove carbon buildup on the piston crown after a 0.040 buildup! That doesn't seem like much.


They were referring to .040 buildup of carbon which is huge. They are running stock equpiment obviously. Wouldnt work in a ported saw running .020 cleareance


----------



## Gypo Logger

Why don't all you oil nerds just Shut TFU and pretend this oil thread never happened?? Lol.
John


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Remove carbon buildup on the piston crown after a 0.040 buildup! That doesn't seem like much.


What I found more interesting in the article was their explanation of using heavy oil vs lighter oils in air cooled engines and the temp. Differences on the piston required to evaporate and combust the oil and causes incomplete burning of the oil. The right oil for the application? Think I have heard that about 300 times in this thread?


----------



## Justsaws

All the cool people run 8:1. Think of the slippery power.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Justsaws said:


> All the cool people run 8:1. Think of the slippery power.


My centimens axactly. If it's not smokin', it's not strokin'.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> They were referring to .040 buildup of carbon which is huge. They are running stock equpiment obviously. Wouldnt work in a ported saw running .020 cleareance


 Then everyone that has a ported saw with a cut squish should be concerned with carbon buildup. Especially if they only have 0.020 clearance left!


----------



## cuttinties

Ron660 said:


> Then everyone that has a ported saw with a cut squish should be concerned with carbon buildup. Especially if they only have 0.020 clearance left!


Flat squish area with tighter clearance will trap more in the chamber. That eliminates most of the carbon in the squish area.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> They were referring to .040 buildup of carbon which is huge. They are running stock equpiment obviously. Wouldnt work in a ported saw running .020 cleareance


 0.040 huge? The thickness of a human hair is 0.004. So ten human hairs equals 0.040 of an inch.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> What I found more interesting in the article was their explanation of using heavy oil vs lighter oils in air cooled engines and the temp. Differences on the piston required to evaporate and combust the oil and causes incomplete burning of the oil. The right oil for the application? Think I have heard that about 300 times in this thread?


So you're still wanting to use R50? Viscosity double of R2?


----------



## Ron660

cuttinties said:


> Flat squish area with tighter clearance will trap more in the chamber. That eliminates most of the carbon in the squish area.


 That makes sense


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> 0.040 huge? The thickness of a human hair is 0.004. So ten human hairs equals 0.040 of an inch.


.040


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> So you're still wanting to use R50? Viscosity double of R2?


Thats what Bwalker has said since the start of the thread. In the right application you need it r50, 800t and in general firewood cutting r2 will be just fine. The oil burns more completely. Same thing the Maxima tech gave a reason for their thinner viscosity oil when I called a year ago


----------



## mdavlee

K2 will be fine for any of these saws except on nitro. I'm going to get some yamalube when I get home and hit the local bike shop up.


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> K2 will be fine for any of these saws except on nitro. I'm going to get some yamalube when I get home and hit the local bike shop up.


Is that what Tru fuel uses in their 50:1 cans? K2?


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> K2 will be fine for any of these saws except on nitro. I'm going to get some yamalube when I get home and hit the local bike shop up.


My k2 will be here today. Im no doubt sticking with k2 or r2 in mtronics and r50 in my big cc ported saws in the summer cutting bigwood


----------



## blsnelling

.040" is huge *in a chainsaw*, even stock.


----------



## KenJax Tree

It seems like everyone is deciding on their oils before the big grand finale. What are we gonna do when H1-R is the winner, because its already clear its going to[emoji1]


----------



## Hedgerow

FWIW.. Took Levi's 025 apart last week and got a crappy pic..
History:
Saw has been in use with a fixed jet carb for 2 years doing general limbing and wood cutting duty.
Maybe 50 tanks of fuel since we had it. Not one of the heavy users.
First year stihl ultra, then switched to Lucas this last year. 
40:1
Nice pool of oil in bottom of pan, clean and wet bearings, just a tick of carbon on the crown mostly on exhaust side, and ring grooves clear. 
Most of the machine marks are still evident on the skirts, 154psi comp.
Running fine, but Levi wanted to make a couple mods to it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Impossible....Lucas has solvents and looks dry, that was obviously run on H1-R


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Impossible....Lucas has solvents and looks dry, that was obviously run on H1-R



Maybe it was the superior Stihl air filtration...
Lol...


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> It seems like everyone is deciding on their oils before the big grand finale. What are we gonna do when H1-R is the winner, because its already clear its going to[emoji1]


I can't run H1r unless I'm in a respirator and that's not happening.


----------



## mdavlee

Hedgerow said:


> Is that what Tru fuel uses in their 50:1 cans? K2?


Not sure what they use. I've burnt some of it but couldn't decide on the smell.


----------



## KG441c

.


mdavlee said:


> I can't run H1r unless I'm in a respirator and that's not happening.


In the smell part I think u will appreciate R2. H1r irratated my sinuses/throat


----------



## KenJax Tree

H1-R stinks but the only thing that messes with my sinuses and gives me a pounding headache is Ultra, Klotz just makes me nauseous.


----------



## cuttinties

Hedgerow said:


> FWIW.. Took Levi's 025 apart last week and got a crappy pic..
> History:
> Saw has been in use with a fixed jet carb for 2 years doing general limbing and wood cutting duty.
> Maybe 50 tanks of fuel since we had it. Not one of the heavy users.
> First year stihl ultra, then switched to Lucas this last year.
> 40:1
> Nice pool of oil in bottom of pan, clean and wet bearings, just a tick of carbon on the crown mostly on exhaust side, and ring grooves clear.
> Most of the machine marks are still evident on the skirts, 154psi comp.
> Running fine, but Levi wanted to make a couple mods to it.
> 
> View attachment 427468


That's why I insisted that redbull660 remove a cylinder once. Exhaust port doesn't tell the whole story.


----------



## Hedgerow

Well, whatever is in tru fuel smells "ok" and is reddish in color..
Cobey runs it exclusively in his stuff with good results, and I can detect a real unique scent from it.


----------



## Hedgerow

cuttinties said:


> That's why I insisted that redbull660 remove a cylinder once. Exhaust port doesn't tell the whole story.


That's why I got a pic from under the piston...
It seemed very wet in that crank case.
Wanted everyone else to see what I was lookin at.


----------



## cuttinties

Hedgerow said:


> That's why I got a pic from under the piston...
> It seemed very wet in that crank case.
> Wanted everyone else to see what I was lookin at.


Looks pretty healthy to me.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Then everyone that has a ported saw with a cut squish should be concerned with carbon buildup. Especially if they only have 0.020 clearance left!


The turbulence of the tighter squish doesn't allow carbon to build up that thick.


----------



## Andyshine77

Hedgerow said:


> FWIW.. Took Levi's 025 apart last week and got a crappy pic..
> History:
> Saw has been in use with a fixed jet carb for 2 years doing general limbing and wood cutting duty.
> Maybe 50 tanks of fuel since we had it. Not one of the heavy users.
> First year stihl ultra, then switched to Lucas this last year.
> 40:1
> Nice pool of oil in bottom of pan, clean and wet bearings, just a tick of carbon on the crown mostly on exhaust side, and ring grooves clear.
> Most of the machine marks are still evident on the skirts, 154psi comp.
> Running fine, but Levi wanted to make a couple mods to it.
> 
> View attachment 427468


Maybe it's just the pic, but it looks like the skirt is polished to death??


----------



## Andyshine77

Sure seems quiet tonight.


----------



## KG441c

Site has been down for most folks


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Site has been down for most folks


Right around the time made that post, I couldn't log back on. The site has been quite unreliable lately.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I agree, but most run way rich from what I can tell.


This might be intentional ............
Take my ported 066, for example
WAAAY rich by most standards, but WOT is 14,000 and studdering its so fat.

So some may limit max WOT rpm by intentionally running rich, which also has a benefit of producing lots of cool running torque, and extra oil for main bearings. Understanding fully that a leaner tune could produce more RPM ................ but choosing to limit RPM and keep cooler temps. I dont have spooge out the mufflers after a good workout, but it will be there if making smaller cuts.

Its not allways cut and dry, stumping aint as tough as milling, but it is definately tougher than cutting firewood.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> That washing is also washing oil of the cylinder walls. Liquid pre mix is. A terrible lubricant.


While I understand what you are saying, the evidence inside the saw tells me there is oil everywhere and no need for concerns about "washing" of anything





bwalker said:


> It's funny that you guys will argue for Yeats which 70cc saw is best, then tune so rich that any advantage goes out the window.


I have never argued on this, as its purely an opinionated answer IMHO


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> While I understand what you are saying, the evidence inside the saw tells me there is oil everywhere and no need for concerns about "washing" O


Of course there is after the fuel evaporates from sitting.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Of course there is after the fuel evaporates from sitting.


I have pulled the jug off while hot ............ same coating hot or cold.

If washing the walls were something of a concern, wouldnt there be evidence of it (scratches or galling) eithor on the cylinder walls or on the piston skirt ?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I have pulled the jug off while hot ............ same coating hot or cold.
> 
> If washing the walls were something of a concern, wouldnt there be evidence of it (scratches or galling) eithor on the cylinder walls or on the piston skirt ?


Maybe, or maybe slight damage over time. The point being, IMO, running a saw excessively rich is a bad thing for a variety of reasons. In the near future it will be irrelevant as autotune, mtronic and the like take over.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> maybe slight damage over time.


Well, I will certainly keep my eyes peeled for any signs.

How about everyone else ................... anybody have any pics of too much oil damage from tuning too rich ?


----------



## NWCoaster

Moparmyway said:


> Well, I will certainly keep my eyes peeled for any signs.
> 
> How about everyone else ................... anybody have any pics of too much oil damage from tuning too rich ?


 I agree that having a bit too much oil is better than not quite enough obviously. But at say 40:1 with a clean burning oil that does not inhibit combustion and power and is not running out the muffler, wouldn't that be better? To each his own, ( especially for reliability) , but some of the heavier high flashpoint oils seem a little excessive?


----------



## Moparmyway

NWCoaster said:


> I agree that having a bit too much oil is better than not quite enough obviously. But at say 40:1 with a clean burning oil that does not inhibit combustion and power and is not running out the muffler, wouldn't that be better?



For your saw, probably..................
For my ported 066 that got hot at least once, (and blued the big rod end) I will run 24:1 and keep her pig rich 4 stroking WOT 14,000. My main bearings have already been thanking me !


----------



## NWCoaster

Moparmyway said:


> For your saw, probably..................
> For my ported 066 that got hot at least once, (and blued the big rod end) I will run 24:1 and keep her pig rich 4 stroking WOT 14,000. My main bearings have already been thanking me !


 Ok, gotcha. Totally makes sense in that case, thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Hedgerow

Andyshine77 said:


> Maybe it's just the pic, but it looks like the skirt is polished to death??


Reflection.. Machine marks still there. 

Told you it was a crappy picture..


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> For my ported 066 that got hot at least once, (and blued the big rod end) I will run 24:1 and keep her pig rich 4 stroking WOT 14,000. My main bearings have already been thanking me !



I can't imagine any saw needing 24:1 and needing tuned rich like that. If so, it's a bandaid for something more serious. Tuning rich leaves all kinds of power on the table.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I can't imagine any saw needing 24:1 and needing tuned rich like that. If so, it's a bandaid for something more serious. Tuning rich leaves all kinds of power on the table.


This.
OTOH I have used excess oil to prevent failure from poorly engineered piston rings on 800 cc Rotax twins. I ran the engine at 20:1 and never had a failure, while 3 friends with the same year and model all did. Anecdotal, but I believe the oil ratio I ran played a significant part.


----------



## Mastermind

Are y'all any closer to finding the perfect oil yet?


----------



## Hedgerow

They have discovered it's all relative...

Cept that H1R stuff...

It's like pine tar...


----------



## Mastermind

I think you might be spot on there Matt.


----------



## Whitespider

Mastermind said:


> *Are y'all any closer to finding the perfect oil yet?*


Epic... 240 pages 
I've decided, when I get my 70cc saw (and port it ), I'm gonna' do exactly as Hedgerow does.
I not 100% sure why I've decided that, but it makes as much sense as anything (maybe even more)... b'sides, it's a ton easier than reading all this again.

So?? Who thinks my decision is a bad one?? Let's hear it 
*


----------



## Andyshine77

Hedgerow said:


> Reflection.. Machine marks still there.
> 
> Told you it was a crappy picture..


Just making sure, as it really looked like polishing. I also taught I could see some carbon in the combustion chamber, but as you said the pic quality is poor.


----------



## windthrown

Gypo Logger said:


> Why don't all you oil nerds just Shut TFU and pretend this oil thread never happened?? Lol.
> John


----------



## windthrown

KG441c said:


> Site has been down for most folks



The web gave me an error yesterday saying that this site did not exist.


----------



## KG441c

windthrown said:


> The web gave me an error yesterday saying that this site did not exist.


For the last few months it practically hasn't!!


----------



## windthrown




----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> .040" is huge *in a chainsaw*, even stock.


 Brad, have you tried Motul 710 yet? Looks like its a similar viscosity as R2 and FD rated.


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> I can't imagine any saw needing 24:1 and needing tuned rich like that. If so, it's a bandaid for something more serious. Tuning rich leaves all kinds of power on the table.


Long bar for big stumps ......... .404
066
You would tune it to be up near 16k ?
It very well could be construed as a bandaid.
The saw was purchased used. Sight unseen
Real happy with the purchase, ...... Thank You to you (you know who) for the purchase !!!
find big rod end got hot and blued ........
Knowing bearing pocket problems on these wide body saws, the extra oil is there to insure they get a healthy dose of lube ...........

The pig rich .................... is to limit max WOT.
What RPM do you run your ported 066's (running 36" .404) up to ?


----------



## mdavlee

I'd say the 066 would do 15.5-16k with a light 4 stroke.


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> For your saw, probably..................
> For my ported 066 that got hot at least once, (and blued the big rod end) I will run 24:1 and keep her pig rich 4 stroking WOT 14,000. My main bearings have already been thanking me !


Don't go over the top on me now. A ported 066/660, tuned for your application would probably be something like 13,500-14,000. I'm simply saying that if you're generating so much heat that you have to run that much oil, and tuned that rich, then something is not right.


----------



## wyk

Moparmyway said:


> This might be intentional ............
> Take my ported 066, for example
> WAAAY rich by most standards, but WOT is 14,000 and studdering its so fat.
> 
> So some may limit max WOT rpm by intentionally running rich, which also has a benefit of producing lots of cool running torque, and extra oil for main bearings. Understanding fully that a leaner tune could produce more RPM ................ but choosing to limit RPM and keep cooler temps. I dont have spooge out the mufflers after a good workout, but it will be there if making smaller cuts.
> 
> Its not allways cut and dry, stumping aint as tough as milling, but it is definately tougher than cutting firewood.



Stumping definitely is not easy on a saw.


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> I'd say the 066 would do 15.5-16k with a light 4 stroke.


I went just over 16k for a second, and still heard it 4 stroking 




blsnelling said:


> Don't go over the top on me now. A ported 066/660, tuned for your application would probably be something like 13,500-14,000. I'm simply saying that if you're generating so much heat that you have to run that much oil, and tuned that rich, then something is not right.


She is at 14k now .............. and I dont mind adding the extra oz of oil per gallon, it burns off just fine when she is under a good load ....................it gets real hot sometimes when stumping ............... no place for the heat to get away to



reindeer said:


> Stumping definitely is not easy on a saw.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I got a little 50:1 bottle of Redmax oil yesterday when i bought my stick edger. Its FD rated. Rebadged something else?


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> I went just over 16k for a second, and still heard it 4 stroking
> 
> 
> 
> She is at 14k now .............. and I dont mind adding the extra oz of oil per gallon, it burns off just fine when she is under a good load ....................it gets real hot sometimes when stumping ............... no place for the heat to get away to


I used to hear that also till i found a better oil .............


----------



## Ron660

reindeer said:


> Stumping definitely is not easy on a saw.


What type of tree is that?


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I used to hear that also till i found a better oil .............


Better oil ?


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> Since nobody has posted any engine failures using 32:1


Hey............. I am still waiting to see any actual pictures of damaged pistons or cylinder walls from washing with too much oil and fuel mixxed. 

Maybe we are both wasting time waiting on something that wont happen


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Brad, have you tried Motul 710 yet? Looks like its a similar viscosity as R2 and FD rated.


I wouldn't lump those two together.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I wouldn't lump those two together.


You wouldn't recommend 710?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Brad, have you tried Motul 710 yet? Looks like its a similar viscosity as R2 and FD rated.





Ron660 said:


> You wouldn't recommend 710?


No, it's an injector oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I might give the Redmax oil a try its cheap and FD rated. Blended by Citgo


----------



## Trx250r180

Yamalube.......... 32 to 1 or 40 to 1 ?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> Yamalube.......... 32 to 1 or 40 to 1 ?


I've been using 42:1 (3oz.) without any issues


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> I've been using 42:1 (3oz.) without any issues


I milled with 40 to 1 last weekend ,going to try 32 to 1 this weekend ,but first we need to tip some cedar over


----------



## wyk

Ron660 said:


> What type of tree is that?



I believe that one started life as a sycamore. The trunk is much bigger than it looks. I have a better view of it in this vid - that bar is very buried and the low rakers are sort of overcoming the dullish chain  I am thinking of making a bench out of the straight part:


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I might give the Redmax oil a try its cheap and FD rated. Blended by Citgo


Its likely pretty good stuff.


----------



## Justsaws

RedMax oil used to be $30.00 a gallon at the local dealer, not sure these days. Never used any, figured I would check it out next week and see what the price there was. I would have to order Lucas in the gallon jugs so if the RedMax was stocked local it wins, unless of course it smells bad or costs more.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> No, it's an injector oil.


What makes it an injector oil, other than the thinner viscosity?


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> What makes it an injector oil, other than the thinner viscosity?


Thinner vis, solvent content is higher.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Thinner vis, solvent content is higher.


Right like Yamalube R2. In that case I see no real technical differences between R2 and Motul 710. So why don't you like 710? You not making any sense IMHO.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Right like Yamalube R2. In that case I see no real technical differences between R2 and Motul 710. So why don't you like 710? You not making any sense IMHO.


Its not the presence of solvents it's the amount and the intended application. 2R is a pre mix oil and has solvents present because it contains PIB. All oils with PIB contain solvents because the stuff is extremely viscous and the solvents are needed to keep the product t blended.
I am sure 710 is just fine, however I prefer to use a purpose blended pre mix oil in a pre mix application.
Make sense?
Further the two oils are night and day different with respect to formulation and intended use. 710 uses low to medium viscosity esters and a higher solvent content, while 2R uses a medium viscosity mineral oil blended with a very high viscosity PIB with some solvent to facilitate blending. 2R is intended for pre mix use in high BMEP motors, while 710 is intended for oil injection use scooters and the like in europe.


----------



## redbull660

Motul - specifically told me (and I posted it) that 800 would be a better choice. 

Also said even 710 at 32:1 and 800 at 50:1 - 800 would STILL offer more protection. 

710 - probably something to do with the base fluid as well on it being injector vs 2R not being premix.


----------



## Hedgerow

Andyshine77 said:


> Just making sure, as it really looked like polishing. I also taught I could see some carbon in the combustion chamber, but as you said the pic quality is poor.


Oh you're spot on there.. There was a **** ton when I bought it, and there's still some now.. Not in the squish area and mostly on the exhaust side.
Piston has a little, but not near as bad as I've seen..


----------



## CR888

Andyshine77 said:


> Right like Yamalube R2. In that case I see no real technical differences between R2 and Motul 710. So why don't you like 710? You not making any sense IMHO.


He is right, some oils are for premix some for injectors and some claim they can do both. Focussing just on technical specs will not help your quest to find the most suitible oil for chainsaw application.


----------



## scallywag

My 084 muffler after two seasons running Motul 800 @ 25:1.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> He is right, some oils are for premix some for injectors and some claim they can do both. Focussing just on technical specs will not help your quest to find the most suitible oil for chainsaw application.



I understand this, however I have a hard time believing certain things, especially some of the information provided by the manufactures. The theory of an oil being more slick makes me skeptical, to be honest I call total BS on that. The issue is about providing stable viscosity, film strength. Additives like PIB sound more like a way to get around lower quality base stocks than anything else. 

I've ran quite a bit of 800 and 710. I find 800 to drool oil at most any ratio. 710 is fine as premix IMHO.

I still prefer the behavior of ester oils, which is noticeable when you use some as assembly lubricant. R2 just sits on the surface, ester oils penetrate and cling to the surfaces. 

Just my thoughts take them for what they are.


----------



## Andyshine77

scallywag said:


> My 084 muffler after two seasons running Motul 800 @ 25:1.
> View attachment 427828


 
That looks really good. I myself have never seen 800 burn like that, I always see oil covering the entire inside of the muffler can. Now a part of that may or may not be do to having an open up exhaust.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> That looks really good. I myself have never seen 800 burn like that, I always see oil covering the entire inside of the muffler can. Now a part of that may or may not be do to having an open up exhaust.


When milling I got zero drool at 25:1 with it. In the 550 cutting firewood it drools.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> When milling I got zero drool at 25:1 with it. In the 550 cutting firewood it drools.



Makes sense.


----------



## scallywag

Andyshine77 said:


> That looks really good. I myself have never seen 800 burn like that, I always see oil covering the entire inside of the muffler can. Now a part of that may or may not be do to having an open up exhaust.


 
As far as I know the muffler is a stock spec Aussie one. The piston did have some carbon on top but I suspect its from the previous oil (Shell).
Here's the plug from 98 octane and Motul 800 @ 25:1.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I understand this, however I have a hard time believing certain things, especially some of the information provided by the manufactures. The theory of an oil being more slick makes me skeptical, to be honest I call total BS on that. The issue is about providing stable viscosity, film strength. Additives like PIB sound more like a way to get around lower quality base stocks than anything else.
> 
> I've ran quite a bit of 800 and 710. I find 800 to drool oil at most any ratio. 710 is fine as premix IMHO.
> 
> I still prefer the behavior of ester oils, which is noticeable when you use some as assembly lubricant. R2 just sits on the surface, ester oils penetrate and cling to the surfaces.
> 
> Just my thoughts take them for what they are.


Who mentioned more slick? And I would lump oil used as assembly lube that "penetrates" the surface in with the previous claim.
PIB isn't an additive, but a base oil and a fine one at that. It isn't a way to get around anything.
Esters have trade offs like anything else.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Who mentioned more slick? And I would lump oil used as assembly lube that "penetrates" the surface in with the precious claim.
> PIB isn't an additive, but a base oil and a fine one at that. It isn't a way to get around anything.
> Esters have trade offs like anything else.



Ester oils can penetrate into the metal, other oil simply float on the surface. Obviously this is one of the many benefits of ester based oils.


----------



## CR888

PIB is a base stock, like bright stock. lts not an additive at all.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Ester oils can penetrate into the metal, other oil simply float on the surface. Obviously this is one of the many benefits of ester based oils.


I don't think I buy that at all.


----------



## bwalker

CR888 said:


> PIB is a base stock, like bright stock. lts not an additive at all.


Yes, and as I mentioned a good one at that. Most all of the oils that Meet JASO FC/FD and ISO-L-EGD are PIB/mineral oil blends.


----------



## CR888

PIB costs more than bright stock for a good reason. What is not in an oil is just as important as what is! Good base stock cost and cheaper oils can stretch the envelope as far as why they are cheap.


----------



## bwalker

One other point. Mineral oil can mean anything from solvent refined crap (group 1) to highly refined products than can be considered synthetic (group 3).


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> One other point. Mineral oil can mean anything from solvent refined crap (group 1) to highly refined products than can be considered synthetic (group 3).


A question in my head. 2 saws ran at 100:1 to failure. R2 and 800t. Which do u think would go first?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> A question in my head. 2 saws ran at 100:1 to failure. R2 and 800t. Which do u think would go first?


Really no way to say with any certainty.
I do think both would run a very long time before failure.


----------



## CR888

l run Fb GD TCI mineral oil and l think its quality, but a very good point that mineral oil can get a bad name from some of the cheaper blends like full synthetic can be over rated because its 'full synthetic' ect ect. lnteresting fact about bombadier jet ski oil injection system is that at idle it recieves no oil, the injection system feeds oil only when its under way. The thought of that would make some folks eyes round here google


----------



## bwalker

CR888 said:


> l run Fb GD TCI mineral oil and l think its quality, but a very good point that mineral oil can get a bad name from some of the cheaper blends like full synthetic can be over rated because its 'full synthetic' ect ect. lnteresting fact about bombadier jet ski oil injection system is that at idle it recieves no oil, the injection system feeds oil only when its under way. The thought of that would make some folks eyes round here google


That's true in regards to the Bombardier system. And why not? Oil migration is almost zero at idle. As far as I know the system worked pretty well.


----------



## one.man.band

FWIW.

About the year 2001 we started to use PIB at work to blend into mix designs (nothing related to lubricants). For 15 years I breathed in more burned PIBs than I care to remember. The PIB was added in to obtain a workable viscosity. Headaches, sinus problems and coughing globs were the norm for not just myself, but for everyone on the crew. Different companies different crews through the years. Some of the mix designs did not contain PIBs, and the difference in the ability to breath was apparent.

Asked the materials engineer at work about why PIBs are used in some mix designs and not others. (We just called it Poly and still do). He replied it was due to cost, ie. oil prices. When the price of oil was high, Poly was added into the blend to reduce cost, when oil price was low, no poly was added. Poly price fluctuates the opposite of oil price.

When asked the Mat Eng what is poly?....reply was.....you know the little beads that are used to make styrofoam cups? After hearing that, asked our safety engineer about it. He did not have any info on what effects burning poly had. He did tell me that most permanent respiratory problems occur about 20 years after being initially exposed to whatever.

Two years ago, had the opportunity to speak with a high up guy from the parent company of the US company who was the contractor/producer working for us at the time. Parent company was based in France. He told me that there are oil tankers, anchored just 7 miles out who will stay put for months if need be, to wait for oil prices to go up a couple of pennies. When they do, they come floating into dock to deliver the crude to maximize profit.

If it were me, for safety's sake would look for a blend of oil with the least amount of poly % in the mix. Most safety sheets and patents show a wide range of poly % that is permitted in a particular blend. Guessing that this is due more about cost savings depending on oil price. 

The PIB is not a very good lubricant by itself. In a performance application, would stay away from a mix oil that uses PIB as a main ingredient. Some is necessary for cleanliness. Take a look at some safety sheets for the FD rated low smoke oils. Most all have a PIB content above 40%. Keeps things clean, no doubt.

The yamaha engineers who were part of the reason behind the new tests required for the FD rating talk about PIBs here: http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf

Gordon Jennings in the 1970's went through much of what is being rehashed in this thread here: http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

edit: forgot to add the 2nd link


----------



## Whitespider

I'm stickin' with oil... preferably designated 2-stroke oil for mixing with gas and and pouring in the fuel tanks of my 2-stroke powered stuff.
Yup... oil... I'm stickin' with oil... can't go wrong with oil.
Dad always said... any brand oil is better than no oil, clean oil is better than dirty oil, near everything else is just the sales pitch... ain't been able to prove him wrong yet.
*


----------



## Bwildered

That's a good point, those running richer oil ratios are also breathing in excess quantities of exhaust fumes of these burnt or unburnt chemicals, running at the recommended 50:1 ratio reduces that problem but not completely, those having 40 a day don't have to worry about it too much they pretty well much have one foot in the grave already.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> FWIW.
> 
> About the year 2001 we started to use PIB at work to blend into mix designs (nothing related to lubricants). For 15 years I breathed in more burned PIBs than I care to remember. The PIB was added in to obtain a workable viscosity. Headaches, sinus problems and coughing globs were the norm for not just myself, but for everyone on the crew. Different companies different crews through the years. Some of the mix designs did not contain PIBs, and the difference in the ability to breath was apparent.
> 
> Asked the materials engineer at work about why PIBs are used in some mix designs and not others. (We just called it Poly and still do). He replied it was due to cost, ie. oil prices. When the price of oil was high, Poly was added into the blend to reduce cost, when oil price was low, no poly was added. Poly price fluctuates the opposite of oil price.
> 
> When asked the Mat Eng what is poly?....reply was.....you know the little beads that are used to make styrofoam cups? After hearing that, asked our safety engineer about it. He did not have any info on what effects burning poly had. He did tell me that most permanent respiratory problems occur about 20 years after being initially exposed to whatever.
> 
> Two years ago, had the opportunity to speak with a high up guy from the parent company of the US company who was the contractor/producer working for us at the time. Parent company was based in France. He told me that there are oil tankers, anchored just 7 miles out who will stay put for months if need be, to wait for oil prices to go up a couple of pennies. When they do, they come floating into dock to deliver the crude to maximize profit.
> 
> If it were me, for safety's sake would look for a blend of oil with the least amount of poly % in the mix. Most safety sheets and patents show a wide range of poly % that is permitted in a particular blend. Guessing that this is due more about cost savings depending on oil price.
> 
> The PIB is not a very good lubricant by itself. In a performance application, would stay away from a mix oil that uses PIB as a main ingredient. Some is necessary for cleanliness. Take a look at some safety sheets for the FD rated low smoke oils. Most all have a PIB content above 40%. Keeps things clean, no doubt.
> 
> The yamaha engineers who were part of the reason behind the new tests required for the FD rating talk about PIBs here: http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf
> 
> Gordon Jennings in the 1970's went through much of what is being rehashed in this thread here: http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf
> 
> edit: forgot to add the 2nd link


PIB is a term that refers to a variety of products, as do esters.
PIB is not what makes Styrofoam cups as that's poly styrene.
PIB is an excellant lubricant when the right types and viscosity product is used.
Yamalube has two cycle lubes figured out and uses PIB.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> That's a good point, those running richer oil ratios are also breathing in excess quantities of exhaust fumes of these burnt or unburnt chemicals, running at the recommended 50:1 ratio reduces that problem but not completely, those having 40 a day don't have to worry about it too much they pretty well much have one foot in the grave already.
> Thansk


Exhaust emissions severity depends more on carb tuning and scavenging efficiency than oil ratio. Besides the majority of unburnt hc coming from a two stroke is fuel as oil makes up such a small percentage of pre mix.
If your concerned buy a strato saw.


----------



## Hedgerow

Unrelated question..
I bought a freshly rebuilt mariner fuel injected 175. It is oil injected and is still in it's break in period.. Why do they suggest to run pre mix oil in the tank for break in? Is there not a risk of running too lean doing this? I am not a boat guy.. It smokes a lot after a proper warm up though, eventually cleaning out after 1/2 -3/4 throttle run to the preferred fishing area.
Thoughts?


----------



## Moparmyway

Boat motors have nothing to do with chainsaws ............ whats wrong with ya ???
Pre mix in an injected application ??
Watch out for the 2 cycle police .................. here they come !!!!

My hypothesis is that the injection system adds little to zero oil at idle, and they want you to mix in some pre-mix in the fuel untill the motor breaks in properly


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> Unrelated question..
> I bought a freshly rebuilt mariner fuel injected 175. It is oil injected and is still in it's break in period.. Why do they suggest to run pre mix oil in the tank for break in? Is there not a risk of running too lean doing this? I am not a boat guy.. It smokes a lot after a proper warm up though, eventually cleaning out after 1/2 -3/4 throttle run to the preferred fishing area.
> Thoughts?


Because the OEM'S are concerned that the pump may have air in the lines when first started. I would run alittle pre mix in any injected motor when ever new or after work on the injection pump/ lines.
Extra oil for break in is counterproductive IMO.


----------



## Hedgerow

I knew there was more to that story..


----------



## Hedgerow

Would 100:1 pre mix be sufficient for protection through this period?
Surely it would fog less skeeters..


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> A question in my head. 2 saws ran at 100:1 to failure. R2 and 800t. Which do u think would go first?


The one with the highest viscosity...800 2T.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> PIB is a term that refers to a variety of products, as do esters.
> PIB is not what makes Styrofoam cups as that's poly styrene.
> PIB is an excellant lubricant when the right types and viscosity product is used.
> Yamalube has two cycle lubes figured out and uses PIB.



yamaha folks were talking about low and high molecular weight polybutene.
low molecular : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutene
the high molecular weight version polybutene-1 is used in polystyrene (styrofoam): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene

edit: spelling. what happened to this site?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> The one with the highest viscosity...800 2T.


Brad, you can't say that with any certainty....
Although based in its extremely high metal content and its viscosity 800 might go a little longer. Of course the opposite could be true as well.


----------



## one.man.band

over it.

have fun over here.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> A question in my head. 2 saws ran at 100:1 to failure. R2 and 800t. Which do u think would go first?


KL-200 will last longer??


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> yamaha folks were talking about low and high molecular weight polybutene.
> low molecular : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutene
> the high molecular weight version polybutene-1 is used in polystyrene (styrofoam): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene
> 
> edit: spelling. what happened to this site?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427911



PIB might be used to make styrofoam and it may not. PIB isn't styrofoam.

Also might point out these negative effects are associated with high levels of PIB and high molecular weight PIB. At the levels found in the two cycle oils I have looked at it simply isn't an issue. And Yamaha itself uses PIB with all of their two cycle oils I have looked at.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> KL-200 will last longer??


Castor oil will beat all of them.
How this relevant to anything?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Castor oil will beat all of them.
> How this relevant to anything?


 KL-200 is castor or synthetic? I only remember reading KL-200 had an extremely high viscosity.


----------



## one.man.band

read up on the health effects folks. stay safe. 

when i first was involved with abrasive blasting of lead paint 25 years ago. the only safety warning required at the time on the collected slag placed in 55 gallon sealed drums was.... "do not eat."

times change.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> KL-200 is castor or synthetic? I only remember reading KL-200 had an extremely high viscosity.


I believe it's their older synthetic.
Viscosity isn't the only thing going on when it pertains to the question at hand.
Castor for instance polymerizes under heat to form a grease like substance, so it has a a film strength that's off the charts.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> KL-200 will last longer??


All this stuff has gotten out of hand. I wouldnt believe any oils claim until Ive seen 2 oils compared side by side in equipment to failure. Anything else is an opinion and a waste of time


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> KL-200 is castor or synthetic? I only remember reading KL-200 had an extremely high viscosity.


Alota the hotsaw guys use kl200. Gotta be a reason


----------



## cuttinties

KG441c said:


> Alota the hotsaw guys use kl200. Gotta be a reason


Methanol and Nitromethane. Completely different ballgame.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> All this stuff has gotten out of hand. I wouldnt believe any oils claim until Ive seen 2 oils compared side by side in equipment to failure. Anything else is an opinion and a waste of time


Even compared side to side in one scenario they're gonna be different in another so too many variables to just say one oil is the best.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Even compared side to side in one scenario they're gonna be different in another so too many variables to just say one oil is the best.


Stats being what they are 1 on 1 doesn't mean squat. And there is a reason tests like this have never been done. They don't mean squat or tell you anything about how a oil at a normal ratio performs over the life of a saw.


----------



## windthrown

one.man.band said:


> yamaha folks were talking about low and high molecular weight polybutene.
> low molecular : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutene
> the high molecular weight version polybutene-1 is used in polystyrene (styrofoam): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene
> 
> edit: spelling. what happened to this site?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 427911



Bah! Technical papers do not mean anything! They are written by marketing and advertising people and are just hype! No, I do not actually believe this, but many so called "experts" on this site do. 

As for this site, it has gone to shyte in many ways from Sunday.


----------



## windthrown

one.man.band said:


> read up on the health effects folks. stay safe.
> 
> when i first was involved with abrasive blasting of lead paint 25 years ago. the only safety warning required at the time on the collected slag placed in 55 gallon sealed drums was.... "do not eat."
> 
> times change.



But lead tastes and smells so good! It must be good for you!


----------



## windthrown

I like oil threads. Do you like oil threads, Dennis?


----------



## porsche965

KG441c said:


> All this stuff has gotten out of hand. I wouldnt believe any oils claim until Ive seen 2 oils compared side by side in equipment to failure. Anything else is an opinion and a waste of time



I've said this toward the beginning of the thread but no one is willing to spend any $ to find out. All talk and no action spells ***** to me. They'd rather blather on and sound like they know something they actually don't. It's all copied from the Internet and we know how reliable that is lol


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I don't think I buy that at all.


It's a know fact, do to the low molecular weight. A huge advantage ester oils have over other synthetic or mineral oils. I think you're just in love with R2.[emoji6]


----------



## one.man.band

wind........

no exposure limits have been established. imagine that. 8-10 hours a day with exhaust exit 2 feet away.

good news is there is no reproductive harm!

do hope somebody out there may read the safety data sheet about wearing self contained breathing apparatus when extinguishing fires or chronic pneumonia after absorption/ingestion though.

http://www.soltexinc.com/pdf/Soltex-Polybutene-SDS-12-17-14.pdf


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> PIB is a term that refers to a variety of products, as do esters.
> PIB is not what makes Styrofoam cups as that's poly styrene.
> PIB is an excellant lubricant when the right types and viscosity product is used.
> Yamalube has two cycle lubes figured out and uses PIB.



Yamalube is just a name they put on someone else's product, and seeing as it's now made by Spectrum, it's likely the same blend as Husqvarna's oil. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I've said this toward the beginning of the thread but no one is willing to spend any $ to find out. All talk and no action spells ***** to me. They'd rather blather on and sound like they know something they actually don't. It's all copied from the Internet and we know how reliable that is lol


Yes, because fronting the money for a meaningful test is great investment...


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Yamalube is just a name they put on someone else's product, and seeing as it's now made by Spectrum, it's likely the same blend as Husqvarna's oil. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Yamalube is a blend formulated for yamaha.. it's not the same as anyone's product and wasn't when citgo and before that chevron blended it.


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> Bah! Technical papers do not mean anything! They are written by marketing and advertising people and are just hype! No, I do not actually believe this, but many so called "experts" on this site do.
> 
> As for this site, it has gone to shyte in many ways from Sunday.


They certainly do mean something, if one knows how to read them.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> wind........
> 
> no exposure limits have been established. imagine that. 8-10 hours a day with exhaust exit 2 feet away.
> 
> good news is there is no reproductive harm!
> 
> do hope somebody out there may read the safety data sheet about wearing self contained breathing apparatus when extinguishing fires or chronic pneumonia after absorption/ingestion though.
> 
> http://www.soltexinc.com/pdf/Soltex-Polybutene-SDS-12-17-14.pdf


Certainly no worse than gasoline fumes or other oil fumes. It's no stretch that breathing exhaust isn't great for you.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It's a know fact, do to the low molecular weight. A huge advantage ester oils have over other synthetic or mineral oils. I think you're just in love with R2.[emoji6]


I'm really not..I'm using an ester oil right now and have laid up quit a stock of it..


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I'm really not..I'm using an ester oil right now and have laid up quit a stock of it..


K2?


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> K2?


Yes.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It's a know fact, do to the low molecular weight. A huge advantage ester oils have over other synthetic or mineral oils. I think you're just in love with R2.[emoji6]


Any citation?


----------



## windthrown

one.man.band said:


> wind........
> 
> no exposure limits have been established. imagine that. 8-10 hours a day with exhaust exit 2 feet away.
> 
> good news is there is no reproductive harm!
> 
> do hope somebody out there may read the safety data sheet about wearing self contained breathing apparatus when extinguishing fires or chronic pneumonia after absorption/ingestion though.
> 
> http://www.soltexinc.com/pdf/Soltex-Polybutene-SDS-12-17-14.pdf



Yah, I liken your post to the fact that people on this site run saws with LL Avgas which has TEL in it. Suck down those lead aerosol fumes! Yum yum!

I do use low smoke oils in my saws. They have polybutene/PB and/or polyisobutene/PIB in them which is broken down into isobutenes which burn off during combustion. I keep that stuff off my hands when mixing it with gas using vinyl gloves.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> They certainly do mean something, if one knows how to read them.



Yes, read my fine print...


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Yes.


I burned some of it earlier in one saw and weedeater.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> Certainly no worse than gasoline fumes or other oil fumes. It's no stretch that breathing exhaust isn't great for you.



In principal at least, gasoline simply burns to form CO2 and water.


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> Yes, read my fine print...


I was agreeing with you.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> I burned some of it earlier in one saw and weedeater.


Its good stuff, but I am not convinced it is any better than 2R and it cost almost twice as much.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> I was agreeing with you.



Then we are in VIOLENT agreement here!

Ohl threads, gott'a love 'em.


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> In principal at least, gasoline simply burns to form CO2 and water.


Who mentioned TEL?
Fact is that breathing exhaust fumes out of any two cycle is bad..


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> How mentioned TEL.
> Fact is that breathing exhaust fumes out of any two cycle is bad..



TEL fumes on either end of the combustion cycle are far far worse than non-leaded gas fumes and exhaust though. The gas/oil companies knew this from the start when employees died making TEL blended gas, but is was covered up. Later cases in point: CHP officers were tested in LA when TEL was in gas and many had 1/2 the lethal dose of lead in their blood. That study led to the subsequent reduction and removal of lead in gas in CA and the US. Since the removal of lead in gasoline, lead levels in humans in the US have dropped significantly.


----------



## _RJ_

As a kid riding dirt bikes. Golden Spectro used to make me break out into hives. Weird


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> TEL fumes on either end of the combustion cycle are far far worse than non-leaded gas fumes and exhaust though. The gas/oil companies knew this from the start when employees died making TEL blended gas, but is was covered up. Later cases in point: CHP officers were tested in LA when TEL was in gas and many had 1/2 the lethal dose of lead in their blood. That study led to the subsequent reduction and removal of lead in gas in CA and the US. Since the removal of lead in gasoline, lead levels in humans in the US have dropped significantly.


Great, but I never mentioned lead or that breathing any of this stuff is a good thing, so what am I "emphatically wrong" on?
Of note though is that the richer=cooler longer lasting saw crew is subjecting themselves to way more nasties than those that tune right.


----------



## mdavlee

046 muffler cover. Been run on 800 except the little test I did with all the other fuels a couple weeks back.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> 046 muffler cover. Been run on 800 except the little test I did with all the other fuels a couple weeks back.
> 
> View attachment 427986


Milling?


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Milling?


Nope just cutting and blocking some firewood with it. I haven't had any problems with it tuned around 14k slobbering oil out. There is a good bit of carbon build up in the muffler but it seems to be dry. The other picture came out too blurry to show the back half. I was surprised it was as dry as it was.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Nope just cutting and blocking some firewood with it. I haven't had any problems with it tuned around 14k slobbering oil out. There is a good bit of carbon build up in the muffler but it seems to be dry. The other picture came out too blurry to show the back half. I was surprised it was as dry as it was.


Doesn't look too bad.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Doesn't look too bad.


Not at all. It had R50 before that. This is a fresh piston so it doesn't have any carbon on top yet. It's just getting discolored a little on top.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Castor oil will beat all of them.
> How this relevant to anything?


 I read an article on oil testing with 2-cycle engines until failure. Castor oil was the winner. It lasted longer than synthetic and dino oils. 
What are some brands of Castor based oils?


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> I read an article on oil testing with 2-cycle engines until failure. Castor oil was the winner. It lasted longer than synthetic and dino oils.
> What are some brands of Castor based oils?


Maxima 927, Klotz super is part bean oil. Klotz benol and several others if you look hard enough.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Maxima 927, Klotz super is part bean oil. Klotz benol and several others if you look hard enough.


Its pretty dirty though isnt it?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Its pretty dirty though isnt it?


Super techniplate isn't god awful if your jetted very crisp and load the hell out of it. 927 is about the same.
Two many down sides to castor for use in a saw or anything else for that matter that's not torn down every weekend.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Maxima 927, Klotz super is part bean oil. Klotz benol and several others if you look hard enough.


927, catrol A747 and Super are castor/ester blends. Benol is straight castor as is Blendzall.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> Great, but I never mentioned lead or that breathing any of this stuff is a good thing, so what am I "emphatically wrong" on?
> Of note though is that the richer=cooler longer lasting saw crew is subjecting themselves to way more nasties than those that tune right.



Well no. There are all kinds of risks, some are worse than others though. The TEL issue came up with the general issue of the toxicity of premix and gas additives. As for tuning right or wrung, or using the right oil mix, or even the right oil (some guys here still swear by TWC-3 premix), or the right gas (some use LL Avgas, others use racing gas, while others swear by regular low octane), there are indeed other issues and risks for saw crews, yes. Vibration from saws, cosmic rays from being outside, personal injury using a chipper and chainsaw, climbing accidents, and...

Hey! wait a minute, this is arborist talk! This site is not about that stuff any more, is it?


----------



## wyk

KG441c said:


> Its pretty dirty though isnt it?



I ran Maxxima for a while in a couple of ported saws at 32:1. At first, it was fine, but eventually the varnish started. It took about 20 tanks before it was very noticeable through the muffler. I didn't take it any further, but running Castrol Pro 1, 2t at 32:1 cleaned out the varnish quickly.


----------



## mdavlee

For firewood I don't think you'll be getting hot enough long enough to burn the castor off. I've used the 927 and didn't see the buildup some have.


----------



## one.man.band




----------



## wyk

mdavlee said:


> For firewood I don't think you'll be getting hot enough long enough to burn the castor off. I've used the 927 and didn't see the buildup some have.



I would use it without reservation for milling.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mike IMO there isn't a saw that is run under normal circumstances that will push ANY oils listed here to their limits


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> Mike IMO there isn't a saw that is run under normal circumstances that will push ANY oils listed here to their limits


I don't think so either. Maybe in Australia where 25:1 is recommended for the large saws.


----------



## brockhaskins

Good fair priced oil 40:1. Thread over


----------



## brockhaskins

But then I wouldn't have anything to do during comercials.


----------



## Big_Wood

so what oil should i be running?


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I don't think so either. Maybe in Australia where 25:1 is recommended for the large saws.


What oil works better with the 084, 880, or 3120 when milling?


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> What oil works better with the 084, 880, or 3120 when milling?


Any of the ones I've used have been fine even the 927.


----------



## KenJax Tree

No posts in almost 12 hours?? C'mon slackers


----------



## Effs

KenJax Tree said:


> No posts in almost 12 hours?? C'mon slackers


H1r is the best oil!!!


----------



## Hedgerow

Get yer cheap on......


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> No posts in almost 12 hours?? C'mon slackers



Every time i switch oils or ratios in my machines i have to retune them ,this is pissing me off when trying to get work done .
And dtp has made the cleanest power of them all so far in my machines .

Carry on .


----------



## gomoto69

Bad luck for me with lucas, first time i used it in my kx250, crank bearings went. tried it one more time a few years later in my girlfriend's kids kx85, top end blew up first moto. 40:1 both times. Would they both have blown up that day with any oil? Almost for sure. Will i ever try lucas oil again? Not in this lifetime!


----------



## NWCoaster

Trx250r180 said:


> Every time i switch oils or ratios in my machines i have to retune them ,this is pissing me off when trying to get work done .
> And dtp has made the cleanest power of them all so far in my machines .
> 
> Carry on .


DTP???


----------



## windthrown

Best oil ever made. Seems to be discontinued now though?


----------



## NWCoaster

windthrown said:


> Best oil ever made. Seems to be discontinued now though?
> 
> View attachment 428237


Too Bad.... how could you go wrong with something called Gary Goo??????? (Especially since its not Fricken Amsoil....Lol)


----------



## windthrown

NWCoaster said:


> DTP???



Dumonde Tech racing oil... self proclaims to be the best available.

http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/dtp-synthetic-racing-oil/

Dumonde Tech *DTP* _to this day_ is still the most advanced 2 stroke premix oil and “state of the art lubrication” which pushes the technology envelope further than any other oil in the world!

Hard to beat that. Not cheap though, at $15 a pint.


----------



## windthrown

NWCoaster said:


> Too Bad.... how could you go wrong with something called Gary Goo??????? (Especially since its not Fricken Amsoil....Lol)



Yah, Gary got married and left AS. Burned out after being a mod here no doubt.

GOO was an acronym for Gary's Own Oil (like Paul 'Newman's Own' products). And yes, its not fricken Amsoil. Gary Goo was invented here on AS in the best thread on oil ever. It all happened one afternoon in a collaborative effort. The good old days of AS.


----------



## Hedgerow

gomoto69 said:


> Bad luck for me with lucas, first time i used it in my kx250, crank bearings went. tried it one more time a few years later in my girlfriend's kids kx85, top end blew up first moto. 40:1 both times. Would they both have blown up that day with any oil? Almost for sure. Will i ever try lucas oil again? Not in this lifetime!


I agree...
You should never use it again...
Like ever...

More for me..
Only been through like 3 gallons of it now.. 
Guess I should be blowing up my top end now...
Or maybe having some crank bearing failures...
Lol....


----------



## KenJax Tree

[emoji23]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

chris you still burning lucas or have you moved on to something cheaper?


----------



## Hedgerow

How can someone argue with this kind of protection..??!!


Lol...


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> chris you still burning lucas or have you moved on to something cheaper?


Right now i'm using up some Maxima Super M i have. I gotta burn up some of the oil i have in my stash. I'm gonna give the Redmax oil a try its cheap and FD rated, i got a little 50:1 bottle with my new Redmax edger. 

I'll end up using Lucas, Yamalube, or Redmax.....or maybe all 3 who knows.[emoji1]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> Right now i'm using up some Maxima Super M i have. I gotta burn up some of the oil i have in my stash. I'm gonna give the Redmax oil a try its cheap and FD rated, i got a little 50:1 bottle with my new Redmax edger.
> 
> I'll end up using Lucas, Yamalube, or Redmax.....or maybe all 3 who knows.[emoji1]


the redmax is 36$ per gallon here at the dealership. its blended by citgo which also produces echo powerblend which is good oil.


----------



## NWCoaster

windthrown said:


> Yah, Gary got married and left AS. Burned out after being a mod here no doubt.
> 
> GOO was an acronym for Gary's Own Oil (like Paul 'Newman's Own' products). And yes, its not fricken Amsoil. Gary Goo was invented here on AS in the best thread on oil ever. It all happened one afternoon in a collaborative effort. The good old days of AS.


Thanks for the info, sounds like a good time. ☺


----------



## NWCoaster

Hedgerow said:


> How can someone argue with this kind of protection..??!!View attachment 428246
> 
> 
> Lol...


EXCELLENT protection right there! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy knowing the full synthetic Lucas is in my saws right now!!


----------



## gomoto69

Hedgerow said:


> I agree...
> You should never use it again...
> 
> 
> 
> Like ever...
> 
> More for me..
> Only been through like 3 gallons of it now..
> Guess I should be blowing up my top end now...
> Or maybe having some crank bearing failures...
> Lol....



Ha, you can have it! I've used h1r, motul 800, maxima k2, used maxima 927 in my son's full pro circuit built race bike, used yamalube 2r, used castrol, when i logged we used penzoil 2 stroke mix oil. Everything 40:1, except the 927 was 32:1, never had abnormal wear or carbon build up, i don't kno which was best, comes down to availability, but i will stick with any of the synthetics from now on. Gotta say, one nice thing about the metric system here in canada, makes mixing much simpler!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

metric what is that? i only mix one pint to 4 gallons of gas that seems easy to me.


----------



## gomoto69

Pints are only a measure of cold bubbly beer! Liters makes for simple mixing, no matter how much mix you may need!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

a pint is 16oz and beer is awful.


----------



## Big_Wood

Effs said:


> H1r is the best oil!!!



at what ratio? ................... i still think ya'll are over thinking it. i am not saying i never did but i have been running cheap **** oil at 40:1 for 2 weeks now. tempted to go to 50:1. i will not say i'm not scared to do so but i'm thinking about it with some of the beaters at least.


----------



## brockhaskins

Burned the last of Lucas up and mixed 5 gal of Super m. Didn't have to re-tune and felt like throttle was just a bit more crisp. Smell wasn't bad either.


----------



## Gypo Logger

I don't like 50:1, I thought for sure my 346 was gonna pop today, in fact I'll bet you dollars to dognuts the P&C is scored.
What's up with all this misinformation?


----------



## _RJ_

Here you go. End of thread.


----------



## the GOAT

_RJ_ said:


> Here you go. End of thread.
> View attachment 428254


[/Thread]


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Certainly no worse than gasoline fumes or other oil fumes. It's no stretch that breathing exhaust isn't great for you.


So is it possible that 800 would be better in regards to breathing fumes as there is no PIB?


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> So is it possible that 800 would be better in regards to breathing fumes as there is no PIB?


Its possible, but the opposite is also possible as well.


----------



## Andyshine77

Flatie said:


> So is it possible that 800 would be better in regards to breathing fumes as there is no PIB?



My guess would be yes. Again IMHO the PIB is used to improve upon the lower quality base stock in Yamalube. One thing I am sure about, no one will agree with that.


----------



## Flatie

Andyshine77 said:


> My guess would be yes. Again IMHO the PIB is used to improve upon the lower quality base stock in Yamalube. One thing I am sure about, no one will agree with that.


Food for thought! Think its something to consider for sure. Would you say the same about K2 then as in base stock?


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Food for thought! Think its something to consider for sure. Would you say the same about K2 then as in base stock?


Its not true that PIB is blended into 2r because of inferior base oils, just as its not true that it's blended with K2 because of inferior base oils.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> My guess would be yes. Again IMHO the PIB is used to improve upon the lower quality base stock in Yamalube. One thing I am sure about, no one will agree with that.


Pretty huge guess with out toxicity studies on each. Personaly I would be as concerned about the zinc content of 800 as I would PIB.


----------



## wyk

jakewells said:


> a pint is 16oz and beer is awful.



A pint is 20 oz here, half a litre. And beer here is lurvlee. Though I do prefer Kentucky Bourbon to Irish whiskey.


----------



## Big_Wood

Gypo Logger said:


> I don't like 50:1, I thought for sure my 346 was gonna pop today, in fact I'll bet you dollars to dognuts the P&C is scored.
> What's up with all this misinformation?



If your 346 scored from 50:1 you didn't have it tuned right. Simple as that. That said, I like 32:1-40:1. I'm just easing my way in to 50:1 cause that's what my saws will be running no matter what I think


----------



## Hedgerow

jakewells said:


> metric what is that? i only mix one pint to 4 gallons of gas that seems easy to me.


A pints a pound, the world around...

I like to use the glug system..
4 glugs to a gallon seems pretty good..


----------



## Bwildered

I cant wait until manufacturers & oil companies come up with some super dooper oil that can be run @ say 75:1 or more, I'll be waiting with glee for that time to come. There are no good old days when running a saw at 25:1, like when I bought my first 076, which I still have & run it occasionally with TTS at 50:1, I can tell you now I never looked forward having to do any cuts on a still day or in a gully with the exhaust close to the ground & facing it.
Thansk


----------



## KenJax Tree

Bwildered said:


> I can wait until manufacturers & oil companies come up with some super dooper oil that can be run @ say 75:1 or more
> Thansk


Amsoil Saber or Opti 2


----------



## NWCoaster

Andyshine77 said:


> My guess would be yes. Again IMHO the PIB is used to improve upon the lower quality base stock in Yamalube. One thing I am sure about, no one will agree with that.


 I agree with that........... just cus you said I wouldn't........


----------



## Bwildered

KenJax Tree said:


> Amsoil Saber or Opti 2


That's only the oil companies names, we need saw manufacturers to agree at those ratios.
Thansk


----------



## KenJax Tree

Bwildered said:


> That's only the oil companies names, we need saw manufacturers to agree at those ratios.
> Thansk


Even if the manufacturer agreed i wouldn't use those ratios


----------



## DexterDay

Hedgerow said:


> A pints a pound, the world around...
> 
> I like to use the glug system..
> 4 glugs to a gallon seems pretty good..



 You crack me up!!


----------



## Bwildered

KenJax Tree said:


> Even if the manufacturer agreed i wouldn't use those ratios


And I thought I was a fossil! What would they know! LOL
Thansk


----------



## KenJax Tree

Bwildered said:


> And I thought I was a fossil! What would they know! LOL
> Thansk


Fossil? I'm 37[emoji6]


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm sure this has been posted here but i just came across this...it even mentions PIB.
http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm


----------



## Hedgerow

KenJax Tree said:


> Fossil? I'm 37[emoji6]


You have an old soul...


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm sure this has been posted here but i just came across this...it even mentions PIB.
> http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm



Good article, I posted it a few million pages back.


----------



## NWCoaster

I've got a gallon of Maxima K2 to try out........ (I'm not being sarcastic here, Lol ).....What ratios have people tried and had success with.... ie, stilll burns clean, good power, makes your hair shinier and your breath fresh, etc..... ( Both saws just muffler modded.)


----------



## mdavlee

NWCoaster said:


> I've got a gallon of Maxima K2 to try out........ (I'm not being sarcastic here, Lol ).....What ratios have people tried and had success with.... ie, stilll burns clean, good power, makes your hair shinier and your breath fresh, etc..... ( Both saws just muffler modded.)


32:1 and 40:1 is all I've tried. No problems at those ratios. Never tried it at 25:1 like I did 800 and R50.


----------



## KenJax Tree

At 40:1 i quit taking Viagra....YMMV


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> At 40:1 i quit taking Viagra....YMMV


Only if it's mixed with vp fuel


----------



## NWCoaster

Allright guys, 40:1 it is!!!! thanks for the feedback.


----------



## _RJ_

NWCoaster said:


> Allright guys, 40:1 it is!!!! thanks for the feedback.


40:1 with what oil??? TELL ME NOW!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

_RJ_ said:


> 40:1 with what oil??? TELL ME NOW!!


Maxima K2 man, keep up


----------



## NWCoaster

_RJ_ said:


> 40:1 with what oil??? TELL ME NOW!!


Lol.... love the panicked tone, cracking me up..... nice saw selection by the way.


----------



## _RJ_

KenJax Tree said:


> Maxima K2 man, keep up


----------



## NWCoaster

I actually messaged Maxima today to see what they thought of the K2 for chainsaw use and asked them what ratio, and if they would recommend one of their other oils over the K2. The reply from the technical department stated that they highly recommend the K2 for a saw saying it would provide excellent protection, and to start with 40:1 and could possibly move up to a leaner ratio it it left any wet residue in the exhaust.... but said it was a good place to start. I was very surprised how quick they got back to me ( 1/2 hour or so). Pretty impressed with their customer service.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I just mixed a little cocktail for home....a 50:1 bottle of Redmax synthetic and a 1/2ish oz. of Yamalube to give me a 42ish:1 ratio.
I can already hear my crank bearing screaming for help...


----------



## big t double

I ran some h1r in my fs55 string trimmer tonight at 40:1...then my line head ran out if trimmer line. Stupid h1r.


----------



## KenJax Tree

NWCoaster said:


> I actually messaged Maxima today to see what they thought of the K2 for chainsaw use and asked them what ratio, and if they would recommend one of their other oils over the K2. The reply from the technical department stated that they highly recommend the K2 for a saw saying it would provide excellent protection, and to start with 40:1 and could possibly move up to a leaner ratio it it left any wet residue in the exhaust.... but said it was a good place to start. I was very surprised how quick they got back to me ( 1/2 hour or so). Pretty impressed with their customer service.


Yeah they got back to me quick too when i had a ?. The tech told me to use K2 @ the manufactuerer's recommended ratio. Said he used it 50:1 in all his ***.


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *I just mixed a little cocktail for home....a 50:1 bottle of Redmax synthetic and a 1/2ish oz. of Yamalube to give me a 42ish:1 ratio.
> I can already hear my crank bearing screaming for help...*


It'll be fine, trust me, it'll be fine 
*


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> It'll be fine, trust me, it'll be fine
> *


You missed the sarcasm......and stuff


----------



## Hedgerow

I was thinkin about this thread as I tore apart that old husky 61 I posted a pic of earlier..
Saw was run on whatever the bargain of the day oil was at 40:1 according to my neighbor.. Saw developed a horrendous leak around the base gasket that pinned the ring into the piston..
It puffed 51 lbs of comp when I tested it.. The dirt piles in the crank case were impressive.. But the lower bearing is just as smooth as anyone could ask for..
Go figure..


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hedgerow said:


> I was thinkin about this thread as I tore apart that old husky 61 I posted a pic of earlier..
> Saw was run on whatever the bargain of the day oil was at 40:1 according to my neighbor.. Saw developed a horrendous leak around the base gasket that pinned the ring into the piston..
> It puffed 51 lbs of comp when I tested it.. The dirt piles in the crank case were impressive.. But the lower bearing is just as smooth as anyone could ask for..
> Go figure..


----------



## Big_Wood

anybody try the royal purple 2 stroke oil? was feeling rich so bought jug today. i plan to run it at 50:1.  use to run it at 40:1 through all my dirt bikes but haven't ran it since i switched to 4 stroke bikes. never used it in a chainsaw.


----------



## porsche965

I tried some and didn't think it smelled too good. Hard to describe it. Stinky actually even resembled a skunk oder. ??


----------



## Big_Wood

porsche965 said:


> I tried some and didn't think it smelled too good. Hard to describe it. Stinky actually even resembled a skunk oder. ??



it's actually only $1 more then lucas where i buy it.. i'm not as picky anymore so it's gonna take something special for me to switch from my $4 a litre oil


----------



## Deleted member 83629

got this at the local carquest it was worth it only cost me 3.21 per quart.
smokes a wee bit and has a nice dark blue color this is not tcw3 it says api TC and jaso FB on the bottle 
premix only.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

westcoaster90 said:


> anybody try the royal purple 2 stroke oil? was feeling rich so bought jug today. i plan to run it at 50:1.  use to run it at 40:1 through all my dirt bikes but haven't ran it since i switched to 4 stroke bikes. never used it in a chainsaw.


its TCW3


----------



## Big_Wood

jakewells said:


> its TCW3



it was a TCW3. royal purple changed it and now it's considered an all purpose. i'll run it. ran it in air cooled dirtbikes even when it was labeled TCW3 because it said on back it was safe for chainsaws so figured it would be safe for all air cooled engines. she'll get'er done


----------



## Deleted member 83629

well it being a multi purpose oil it should also be rated api tc. 
its good oil i guess but it isn't worth 15$ per quart the parts house demands for it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

hey boys 9 more posts till 5,000 posts lol


----------



## BuckMKII

******* I can't belive I've read through all this purse swinging. I've actually gleaned a few nuggets of info out of this so thanks to all which contributed to this thread. I still have a few liters of Motul 710 to burn through then 5 more bottles of Stihl Ultra that I got with my last trimmer. Then when I'm done I've got a case of Bailey's Woodlandpro to burn through so I'm good for several years.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

BuckMKII said:


> ******* I can't belive I've read through all this purse swinging. I've actually gleaned a few nuggets of info out of this so thanks to all which contributed to this thread. I still have a few liters of Motul 710 to burn through then 5 more bottles of Stihl Ultra that I got with my last trimmer. Then when I'm done I've got a case of Bailey's Woodlandpro to burn through so I'm good for several years.


mix all three brands together and report your findings back to us


----------



## huskihl

BuckMKII said:


> ******* I can't belive I've read through all this purse swinging. I've actually gleaned a few nuggets of info out of this so thanks to all which contributed to this thread. I still have a few liters of Motul 710 to burn through then 5 more bottles of Stihl Ultra that I got with my last trimmer. Then when I'm done I've got a case of Bailey's Woodlandpro to burn through so I'm good for several years.


Purse swingers.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i thought we used fanny packs?


----------



## huskihl

jakewells said:


> i thought we used fanny packs?


With its own pocket for a 2.6 Oz bottle of oil


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *You missed the sarcasm......and stuff*



.....................


----------



## blsnelling

My 390XP running 800 2T Off Road @ 32:1.


----------



## Bwildered

BuckMKII said:


> ******* I can't belive I've read through all this purse swinging. I've actually gleaned a few nuggets of info out of this so thanks to all which contributed to this thread. I still have a few liters of Motul 710 to burn through then 5 more bottles of Stihl Ultra that I got with my last trimmer. Then when I'm done I've got a case of Bailey's Woodlandpro to burn through so I'm good for several years.


Quite a few manginas were irritated as well.
Thansk


----------



## the GOAT

blsnelling said:


> My 390XP running 800 2T Off Road @ 32:1.



Imagine how fast it would have been if you were running 40:1.


----------



## Whitespider

the GOAT said:


> *Imagine how fast it would have been if you were running 40:1.*


Or 50:1 dino oil‼
*


----------



## the GOAT

Whitespider said:


> Or 50:1 dino oil‼
> *


With or without PIB?


----------



## Whitespider

*L O L ‼*
*


----------



## KenJax Tree

the GOAT said:


> With or without PIB?


With PIB of course, the chaps make that obvious. Also the short bar, you wouldn't want to overload the saw with all those solvents in there. Solvents don't lubricate so he's actually running 67.265:1 not 32:1 like he wants us to believe.


----------



## Hedgerow

blsnelling said:


> My 390XP running 800 2T Off Road @ 32:1.



See?? 
Had it been running Lucas, it would have won..
Lol...


----------



## blsnelling

Hedgerow said:


> See??
> Had it been running Lucas, it would have won..
> Lol...


What you talking' about Willis?


----------



## nitehawk55

If you have a known brand good 2 cycle oil and I include dino types as well you should never have to run any richer than 40:1 . One exception might be for stumping/ripping or milling but I think 40:1 would be fine but a bit richer might be a good idea . 
Running too rich of an oil mix can cause issues too , you don't need that much in modern saws .


----------



## blsnelling

nitehawk55 said:


> Running too rich of an oil mix can cause issues too .


Please elaborate.


----------



## NWCoaster

blsnelling said:


> Please elaborate.


Oily discharge..... and if you experience a chainsaw erection lasting more than 4 hours, you should probably go see a doctor ( or you own a MS461) or that 390 in the video above.....


----------



## Bwildered

Some here have had a chainsaw chubby with all the nasty symptoms lasting for months, are they beyond saving?
Thansk


----------



## NWCoaster

Bwildered said:


> Some here have had a chainsaw chubby with all the nasty symptoms lasting for months, are they beyond saving?
> Thansk


 They should probably turn the rate down on the bar oiler to get rid of the dripping....... or maybe make sure they keep a scabbard on thier bar next time for safety's sake....Lol.


----------



## Bwildered

NWCoaster said:


> They should probably turn the rate down on the bar oiler to get rid of the dripping....... or maybe make sure they keep a scabbard on thier bar next time for safety's sake....Lol.


I just thought they were just polishing it way too much.
Thansk


----------



## blsnelling

NWCoaster said:


> Oily discharge..... and if you experience a chainsaw erection lasting more than 4 hours, you should probably go see a doctor ( or you own a MS461) or that 390 in the video above.....


IMHO, that's a tuning issue. I don't get it in my saws.


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> IMHO, that's a tuning issue. I don't get it in my saws.


You know whats funny ?
The 661r and the freak 066 do the same thing.
At little loads, they get wet mufflers ................. at "normal" loads, they run dry
Seems the tunes are pretty close, and they run strong ............... even if one of them 4 studders real hard @ 14,000 rpm and runs 24:1


----------



## huskihl

NWCoaster said:


> They should probably turn the rate down on the bar oiler to get rid of the dripping....... or maybe make sure they keep a scabbard on thier bar next time for safety's sake....Lol.


Lol. Scabbard.....ew


----------



## Trx250r180

If anyone cares in my milling 660 32 to 1 yamalube seemed to roll on better smoother tourque than 40 to 1 did .


----------



## Whitespider

Trx250r180 said:


> *...32 to 1 yamalube seemed to roll on better smoother tourque than 40 to 1 did .*


That's a tuning issue 
*


----------



## Trx250r180

Whitespider said:


> That's a tuning issue
> *


Thank you sir ,now to think of it i did not retune ,with a good oil ,i would not think 4oz (40to1) vs 5 oz (32to1) in a 1.25 gallon can would have to be retuned ,but maybe so


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> If anyone cares in my milling 660 32 to 1 yamalube seemed to roll on better smoother tourque than 40 to 1 did .


It's just your imagination from the fumes.[emoji6]


----------



## nitehawk55

blsnelling said:


> Please elaborate.



Well for one , if the saw isn't tuned right it could actually cause it to run lean . 
Too much oil isn't always a good thing , you should know that Brad .


----------



## windthrown

gomoto69 said:


> Gotta say, one nice thing about the metric system here in canada, makes mixing much simpler!



That is the new Canada. In my day they had Imperial gallons up there (5 quarts per gallon). Also, I dunno what is so hard about 3oz per gallon to make 42.66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666667:1
gas to oil mix?


----------



## windthrown

jakewells said:


> a pint is 16oz and beer is awful.



An English pint is 20oz though. And the beer is even worse there served warm.


----------



## windthrown

Gypo Logger said:


> I don't like 50:1, I thought for sure my 346 was gonna pop today, in fact I'll bet you dollars to dognuts the P&C is scored.
> What's up with all this misinformation?



I think donuts are more than a dollar now? Last time I was at Krispy Cream they were.


----------



## NWCoaster

Where the heck is Bwalker........ I hate to say it but I am starting to miss him in an odd nostalgic kinda way.... or I could have just drank a 4oz Gin Martini.....


----------



## KenJax Tree

windthrown said:


> I think donuts are more than a dollar now? Last time I was at Krispy Cream they were.


$1.00 exactly at Tim Hortons.....you can taste the grease at Krispy Kreme and they're half raw.


----------



## windthrown

KenJax Tree said:


> $1.00 exactly at Tim Hortons.....you can taste the grease at Krispy Kreme and they're half raw.



I think that is the secret of Krispy Cream: being undercooked. And overpriced. I only ate there once. Their prices scared me off. Never heard of Tim Hortons.


----------



## NWCoaster

windthrown said:


> I think that is the secret of Krispy Cream: being undercooked. And overpriced. I only ate there once. Their prices scared me off. Never heard of Tim Hortons.


I'm with you on the CrispyCruds..... yechhhh.........


----------



## Whitespider

NWCoaster said:


> *...or I could have just drank a 4oz Gin Martini.....*


You're so far behind right now, you ain't even in the race.
Heck man, I don't remember what was in the first bottle, but the second is close to bein' half gone.
But that's just me.
*


----------



## DexterDay

Klotz Benol... 16:1


----------



## windthrown

Speaking of which, which oil is best for cooking donuts in, John? Winter weight bar oil or Amsoil? We might have a case for using canola oil again...


----------



## Whitespider

If y'all don't quit postin' in this thread and let it die the death it deserves...
I'm gonna' post a pic of my morning wood... close up and from ground level.
Fair friggin' warning... and it 's friggin ugly... believe me‼
*


----------



## Gypo Logger

Whitespider said:


> If y'all don't quit postin' in this thread and let it die the death it deserves...
> I'm gonna' post a pic of my morning wood... close up and from ground level.
> Fair friggin' warning... and it 's friggin ugly... believe me‼
> *


How many donuts can you fit on that?


----------



## windthrown

On what?


----------



## huskihl

NWCoaster said:


> Where the heck is Bwalker........ I hate to say it but I am starting to miss him in an odd nostalgic kinda way....


I think once WS showed up, bw took his oil and went home


----------



## Gypo Logger

windthrown said:


> On what?
> 
> View attachment 428553


His dickydo. Lol


----------



## windthrown

I am thinking of getting a 661. Would that make a good pussie magnet or what?


----------



## Gypo Logger

No, I think a Wildthing would have the same effect. Lol


----------



## windthrown

Damn, I sold my WildThing for $100 several years ago. I did not even put a drop of gas in it.



Suck on my 18 inch!


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I think once WS showed up, bw took his oil and went home


No, just been busy with work. Carry on..


----------



## Justsaws

Peanut oil or corn, canola oil is a better bar lube than frying oil. Krispy Kreme doughnuts used to be $.50 each, translated to the metric system that would be $.50 to much per doughnut. Tim Hortons, where dreams of a good doughnut go to die.

Hmm, doughnut. 32:1 ratio seems about right.


----------



## windthrown

.50 cents for a Krispy donut? What century was that in?

2015 Krispy Kreme prices: 
Original Glazed 1 Pc. $0.99
Original Glazed Dozen $7.99
Assorted Varieties 1 Pc. $1.09
Assorted Varieties Dozen $8.99
Fritters & Bars 1 Pc. $1.39


----------



## Justsaws

Probably around 2008 would be the last time I purchased a KK product. Gas station grab to motivate the crew as they were informed of the day they were starting or not yet finished with depending on the situation.

Never knew they had an actual KK retail locations, always saw them at gas stations, Krogers and such.


----------



## mdavlee

Tim Hortons FTW!!!!


----------



## the GOAT

Local gourmet... 

http://www.theholydonut.com/index.php/flavorslist


----------



## tree monkey

so the oil police show up needing doughnuts


----------



## Justsaws

If a better quality doughnut was used than perhaps fewer doughnuts would have been needed however it was not worth the effort in order to take the risk so just buy gas station brand and use more.


----------



## windthrown

Justsaws said:


> Never knew they had an actual KK retail locations, always saw them at gas stations, Krogers and such.



KK are a chain, and we even have them out here in the wild west. They are in 23 different countries and there are about 1000 KK stores. I guess they actually have been around for a long time, they were started in 1937 in South Carolina. They do not hold a candle to Voodoo Doughnuts though. At Voodoo you can get specialty donuts like bacon topped maple bars, Captain Crunch or M&M topped donuts, and mango jelly filled fritters. They are only in Portland, Eugene, and Denver though.

http://www.voodoodoughnut.com


----------



## windthrown

tree monkey said:


> so the oil police show up needing doughnuts



Well, at least this thread is on topic: they are cooked in oil, boss! 



And we have not even mentioned Dunkin' Donuts


(every trip to Boston there are 2 more on every block there)


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> 800 has a a really high ash content for a two cycle oil, meaning that it has alot of zinc and calcium antiwear/detergent additives. While at face value this sounds like a good thing, mettalic ash is what causes plug fouling and pre ignition causing deposits.





redbull660 said:


> Motul responded...
> 
> *Redbull - *
> 
> Sir, couple more...
> 
> 1) Is that because the lower viscosity of 710 having less film strength? ("Running the 710 at a ratio of 32:1 will not offer more protection than the 800 at 50:1.")
> 
> 2) I know it says "above exising standards" but is 800 off road actually Jaso -FD certified? If not, why ?
> 
> 3) Wouldn't checking your plug - just tell you if your tunning was incorrect?
> 
> 4) I've heard that the metallics in 800 off road can lead to build up and would cause a great ignition source for pre ignition. Have you heard of this happening? Could you talk about the metallics in 800 off road? No offense intended. It's heresay I understand. I'm just concerned.
> 
> 
> 5) Do you think that the ported saw would require a heavier mix ratio? If so, why? If not, why?
> 
> 6) If I run 800 too rich say between 25-32:1 what is going to happen to my saw (generally speaking) I'm thinking the excess oil would impead the piston movement some not allowing for max/optimal RPMs, and there would be some unburnt deposit build up
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> *Motul Response:
> 
> 1) The 800 is more protective because it is an Ester based product.
> 
> 2) Technically the 800 is not JASO certified. It is not JASO certified because it is designed as a racing product thus it is not required to be JASO certified.
> 
> 3) The mixture of premix is part of your tuning. The color of your plug will tell you if the premix is too rich, lean or perfect for the engine.
> 
> 4) I am not sure where you heard that from, but that statement is false. 800 offroad is one of the cleanest burning premixes out there. Being an ester based product there is very little metallics in the product. Everyone that has used this product for chainsaws can't say enough about how clean their engines are after use.
> 
> 5) I do not think that your ported saw will require a heavier mix ratio. Refer to the color of your plug for this information
> 
> 6) Generally speaking like all two stroke engines a heavier mixture will make run sluggish and spew oil out of the exhaust.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jon Muto
> Marketing Coordinator
> Motul USA Inc. | 790C Indigo Ct. | Pomona, CA 91767
> T 909-625-1292 Ext. 200 | F 909-625-2697 | Cell 909-538-2091
> [email protected]|www.motul.com
> *



The Rep says very little metallics which could be them being bias. You say it's high. What's one to believe??

..............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul

Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
Tin................0...............0...............0............57
Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
Barium............2...............2..............2............1
Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65

Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53

Do you have one for K2 and 800 off road? What is this measured in?


----------



## Flatie

Ron660 said:


> Just spoke with a Motul Rep. He recommended 800 off-road or road racing for my ported 660. He didn't recommend 710 but stated if I wanted to try 710 use only at 32:1. It's only 75% oil! He also said 800 could be mixed at 40:1 with sufficient lubrication. Guess the other Motul guy I talked to was a sales rep. I asked about the JASO rating of 800. He said any oil made stricly for racing isn't JASO required but it would exceed FD certification. Using 800 or R50 I don't think we'll ever have a lubrication or wear issue.





bwalker said:


> Again your completley wrong..
> Ash refers to the amount of mettalic ash when reacting an oil sample with sulfuric acid... It has nothing to do with smoke.
> JASO puts a limit on ash and there is no way 800t would meet jaso-FD because it's ash content is through the roof.





bwalker said:


> What do you guys see weird here???
> 
> 
> 
> Maxima Super M Injector, exceed BIA/TCW, JASO-FC, ISO-E-GD and API TC.
> 
> Mobil1 MX2T, exceed JASO-FC, Proposed ISO-L-EGD, API TC.
> 
> Motorex CrossPower 2T, JASO FC, ISO-L-EGD, ISO-Global GC, API TC, Low Smoke.
> 
> Motul 800 Factory Line Road Racing 2T double ester, API TC.
> 
> http://images28.fotki.com/v986/photos/7/39087/7893182/IMAG0003-vi.jpg
> 
> ...............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul
> 
> Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
> Tin................0...............0...............0............57
> Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
> Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
> Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
> Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
> Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
> Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
> Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
> Barium............2...............2..............2............1
> Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
> Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65
> 
> Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
> VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
> TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53



Again rep saying should exceed FD and he could be bias. You saying not a chance. I do accept the zinc content is high on Road Racing. Is the off road as high? Have you seen the analysis sheet?

Have you seen the K2 analysis sheet? I'm assuming it's lower as with the FD rating it has, but i hate assuming.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> Again rep saying should exceed FD and he could be bias. You saying not a chance. I do accept the zinc content is high on Road Racing. Is the off road as high? Have you seen the analysis sheet?
> 
> Have you seen the K2 analysis sheet? I'm assuming it's lower as with the FD rating it has, but i hate assuming.


I have not seen a VOA for K2. Motul 800 dies have sky high mettalic content for both versions from the VOA'S I have seen.


----------



## redbull660

Hey guys, I was doing any unrelated test yesterday and found something interesting...

I was testing more 661 muffler combo's. I was trying to see if there was a difference in performance between the factory spark screen vs the after mkt wider weave I usually use.

I did a total of 10 cuts for each setup, I timed the cuts, and took temp readings. The last 4 cuts were long and I did them back to back with out any idle time.

The times were very close for about the first 5-6 cuts (even or with in half a sec). After that the wider weave arrestor screen times got faster by on avg by about 1.5-2 seconds.

The interesting part is the temp readings were about the same (A little higher with the stock screen on avg about 5-7 F ) But on the final reading after I had pushed the saw on those final 4 cuts ...

stock screen - 385 F
wider weave screen - 364 F


This seems significant to me because,

We were talking earlier in the thread maybe 10-20 pages ago, about ported saw needing more oil -vs- stock saw, because the ported saw ran hotter, due to the increased rpm's and thus oil migration. btw - does anyone know what the difference in temp is between a stock saw and a ported saw?


I have also found there was a nice difference in Cyl/Jug temp depending on the bar you used...

24" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...parison-stihl-cannon-tsumura-sugihara.276432/
36" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/36-bar-comparison.273078/
32" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/32-detailed-bar-comparison-video.267253/
28" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...n-stihl-cannon-total-tsumura-sugihara.276353/

20" bar comparison in this post - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-cannon-tsumura-sugihara.276432/#post-5282641


----------



## KenJax Tree

Were there solvents in the bar oil? Because solvents don't lubricate so that could contribute to a hotter bar and cause a little drag and make the motor work harder and build more heat, maybe see if you can modify the oiler a little, you're not getting as much oil as you think.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> I did a total of 10 cuts for each setup, I timed the cuts, and took temp readings. The last 4 cuts were long and I did them back to back with out any idle time.
> 
> The times were very close for about the first 5-6 cuts (even or with in half a sec). After that the wider weave arrestor screen times got faster by on avg by about 1.5-2 seconds.
> 
> The interesting part is ..............


that the m-tronic takes time to dial itself in ......................
Its been stated several times that it takes a few long cuts for the 661 to find its best tune ..................


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> I have not seen a VOA for K2. Motul 800 dies have sky high mettalic content for both versions from the VOA'S I have seen.




..............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul

Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
Tin................0...............0...............0............57
Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
Barium............2...............2..............2............1
Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65

Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53

What is the measurement here? Grams? Is this alot of zinc or not?


----------



## the GOAT

[QUOTE="Flatie] Is this alot of zinc or not?[/QUOTE]
40% high IMHO.


----------



## bwalker

Flatie said:


> ..............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul
> 
> Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
> Tin................0...............0...............0............57
> Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
> Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
> Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
> Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
> Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
> Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
> Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
> Barium............2...............2..............2............1
> Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
> Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65
> 
> Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
> VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
> TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53
> 
> What is the measurement here? Grams? Is this alot of zinc or not?


PPM. And that's a ton.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't have spark screens and neither does 90% of AS so......


I pitch them right away.


----------



## Andyshine77

Yes that's a lot of zinc.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk


----------



## KenJax Tree

Hell it looks healthier than most food i eat....look at the good vitamins and minerals in there. Low sodium too.

Maybe its not ethanol plugging fuel lines and carbs, maybe its unhealthy oil kinda like how bad food plugs your heart and arteries. 

Now we're gonna select an oil based on nutritional valve[emoji23]


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> Were there solvents in the bar oil? Because solvents don't lubricate so that could contribute to a hotter bar and cause a little drag and make the motor work harder and build more heat, maybe see if you can modify the oiler a little, you're not getting as much oil as you think.



1. that would be true!
2. your smart azz/azzhole comment reminds me of my 12yr old son. Grow up.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes that's a lot of zinc.
> 
> Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk


And a ton of calcium too, which is a mettalic.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> 1. that would be true!
> 2. your smart azz/azzhole comment reminds me of my 12yr old son. Grow up.



Even your 12 year old son knows


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> Even your 12 year old son knows




wow. 

your a fine example.


----------



## Bwildered

Red bull It's a full moon, it tends to affect some in peculiar ways, keep up the good work busting old wives tale myths. We are yet to see anyone else test any other saws on the original range of ratio changes to see the results.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

RE: TCW3 marine oils. Back in the 90's snowmobiles OEM's reccomended their sleds be an on tcw3 oils. They worked ok, but we're a little dirty depending on the oil. Output began to really climb and exhaust port height modifying valves became common place so the OEM'S changed to low ash, API TC type oils.
In 1996 IIRC I had a polaris 440 race sled that was the first polaris motor with exhaust valves. Using Phillips injex, which was a decent quality outboard oil, the exhaust valves seized within 500 miles. When I removed them I noted the pistons looked terrible too. Ever since this I have not run a tcw3 oil in anything other than an outboard and even then am quit picky on what oil I use. The only exception is Lawnboy mowers which really require a ashless tcw3 type oil.


----------



## blsnelling

661 with 800 2T Off Road @ *32:1 *and *no muffler cover* at all....just for kicks  It actually picked up a second in the cut without the muffler cover. *661s like to breathe! *BTW, I'm going back in for more engine mods soon

I'm pushing inn the saw HARD in this cut. That's where it makes it's fastest cut times.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> Hey guys, I was doing any unrelated test yesterday and found something interesting...
> 
> I was testing more 661 muffler combo's. I was trying to see if there was a difference in performance between the factory spark screen vs the after mkt wider weave I usually use.
> 
> I did a total of 10 cuts for each setup, I timed the cuts, and took temp readings. The last 4 cuts were long and I did them back to back with out any idle time.
> 
> The times were very close for about the first 5-6 cuts (even or with in half a sec). After that the wider weave arrestor screen times got faster by on avg by about 1.5-2 seconds.
> 
> The interesting part is the temp readings were about the same (A little higher with the stock screen on avg about 5-7 F ) But on the final reading after I had pushed the saw on those final 4 cuts ...
> 
> stock screen - 385 F
> wider weave screen - 364 F
> 
> 
> This seems significant to me because,
> 
> We were talking earlier in the thread maybe 10-20 pages ago, about ported saw needing more oil -vs- stock saw, because the ported saw ran hotter, due to the increased rpm's and thus oil migration. btw - does anyone know what the difference in temp is between a stock saw and a ported saw?
> 
> 
> I have also found there was a nice difference in Cyl/Jug temp depending on the bar you used...
> 
> 24" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...parison-stihl-cannon-tsumura-sugihara.276432/
> 36" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/36-bar-comparison.273078/
> 32" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/32-detailed-bar-comparison-video.267253/
> 28" bar comparison - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...n-stihl-cannon-total-tsumura-sugihara.276353/
> 
> 20" bar comparison in this post - http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-cannon-tsumura-sugihara.276432/#post-5282641



The more holes / bigger ports you can put in the muffler ,the more heat that will escape,i bet if you put a good sized port on the lh side of the muffler ,screen size would not make as much a difference ,my triple ports have stock screens ,i have plenty of flow .

[/QUOTE]








bwalker said:


> I pitch them right away.





On my stihls in softwoods i would be worried about filling the muffler with chips ,or have some creepy crawley cridder crawl in there and make a home ,when i am cutting softwoods ,i can see chips hammering the front of my saw ,i know the exhaust should push them out when running ,but flipping over to refuel ,i see crap fall on the screens a lot ,i have side exhaust ports though ,a top one like a husky may be different .[/QUOTE]


----------



## redbull660

Trx250r180 said:


> The more holes / bigger ports you can put in the muffler ,the more heat that will escape,i bet if you put a good sized port on the lh side of the muffler ,screen size would not make as much a difference ,my triple ports have stock screens ,i have plenty of flow .
> 
> 
> 
> On my stihls in softwoods i would be worried about filling the muffler with chips ,or have some creepy crawley cridder crawl in there and make a home ,when i am cutting softwoods ,i can see chips hammering the front of my saw ,i know the exhaust should push them out when running ,but flipping over to refuel ,i see crap fall on the screens a lot ,i have side exhaust ports though ,a top one like a husky may be different .




yeah I also had a larger port with the wide weave arrestor screen. It was slower then the .875" with wide weave. When I put in a stock screen into the "larger port" it gained a lot of ground on the .875" wide weave. Seems you Can let out too much. So I'd say there is a happy medium.

On a 661 stock saw that medium seems to be having the wide weave screen with a port at ~.875"-.900" If u wanna run the stock arrestor screen then you'd need to make the port just a bit bigger yet.


----------



## the GOAT

Today is national donut day.

I wonder what kind of oil is best to fry donuts?


----------



## Justsaws

Depending on how the temps are being taken there will be a good bit of variety with any change made.

I think the belief is that a modified saw will run "cooler" but could benefit from more oil because of the increase in various stresses, mostly bearings. If somebody " modified" one of my saws(made it louder) and made it run measurablely hotter at the same time I would not be pleased.

Get a temp for the saw at idle and then from as screaming hot as you are willing to get it, then compare how long it takes to cool back down to idle temp, with the spark screen change. Screaming hot, not warmed nicely, make sure to leave just enough fuel in the tank to allow for the saw to cool back down to idle.


----------



## KenJax Tree

the GOAT said:


> Today is national donut day.
> 
> I wonder what kind of oil is best to fry donuts?


Motul its nutritional


----------



## redbull660

Justsaws said:


> Depending on how the temps are being taken there will be a good bit of variety with any change made.
> 
> I think the belief is that a modified saw will run "cooler" but could benefit from more oil because of the increase in various stresses, mostly bearings. If somebody " modified" one of my saws(made it louder) and made it run measurablely hotter at the same time I would not be pleased.
> 
> Get a temp for the saw at idle and then from as screaming hot as you are willing to get it compare how long it takes to cool back down to idle temp, with the spark screen change. Screaming hot, not warmed nicely, make sure to leave just enough fuel in the tank to allow for the saw to cool back down to idle.



at idle - in the 200s. 

yes the temps vary. I pick a spot and hold the until on the bar to steady things. I take hte average of all the readings to get one number. 

the stock screen was 383-394 F 394 F is the highest temp I've ever taken. 387 F was the avg.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> yeah I also had a larger port with the wide weave arrestor screen. It was slower then the .875" with wide weave. When I put in a stock screen into the "larger port" it gained a lot of ground on the .875" wide weave. Seems you Can let out to much. So I'd say there is a happy medium.



A few guys have tested with no cover at all and claim saws do not need back pressure ,look at brads vis ,why did he gain a second ?
Edit 
Timberwolf used to do threads like this ,here are some muffler and oil ones ,lot of good reading 

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...er+test&o=relevance&c[node]=9&c[user][0]=2784


----------



## redbull660

..............Maxima........Mobil1.......Motorex........Motul

Iron...............0...............1...............0............0
Tin................0...............0...............0............57
Silicon............0...............0...............0............2
Sodium...........0...............1...............1............3
Titanium.........1...............6...............6............0
Potassium........0...............0...............0............1
Boron.............1...............3...............0............2
Magnesium.......1..............1...............2............2
Calcium.........462.............481............486.........651
Barium............2...............2..............2............1
Phosphorus.......3..............19..............6............62
Zinc...............2..............24..............5............65

Water (IR)...... < 0.1.........< 0.1%.........0.1..........0.1
VIS @ 100C ..... 9.6 cSt......14.3...........12.6.........18.0
TAN..............0.15..........0.49...........0.60.........0.53


*Redbull - *

I keep seeing the above chart talking about the tin zinc phosphorus and calcium content in motul ...i assume 800. Is this because it sucks or because of the formulation? ie. 100% ester? is it bad? What does h1r look like? Maybe H1R , R50, Stihl ultra maybe all similar metallic #s to motul's numbers...because they have somewhat similar make ups?

--------------------------------------------------
*Belray - (Andrew)*

As far as I know, the 800 is good, they have the metallic additives because I assume they found that they work well. Metallic content does contribute to ash content, but if the detergency is good, then it’s not necessarily a problem. Remember, no one thing makes an oil bad or good, you need to look at the big picture. There are standard requirements to how much ash content you can have for the API and JASO regulations, but I do not know how the 800 stacks up against them.


The only metallic in H1-R is calcium and it is at about 203 ppm so it’s about 1/3 of the 800 and half of the others according to that chart that keeps getting posted. Also as a side note, 65 ppm of zinc is miniscule, that could just be residue left in the blending tank from whatever they manufactured before the 800. As a reference point, common 4 stroke motorcycle oils have a zinc content of around 900-1200 ppm. I don’t know about zinc content in 2-strokes oils though. I just know that I keep our metallic content to a minimum to minimize ash and pollutants.


----------



## the GOAT

RESIDUALS left in the tank!!!! OMG.


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> A few guys have tested with no cover at all and claim saws do not need back pressure ,look at brads vis ,why did he gain a second ?


Because they don't need back pressure. We're not running tuned pipes here.


----------



## redbull660

Trx250r180 said:


> A few guys have tested with no cover at all and claim saws do not need back pressure ,look at brads vis ,why did he gain a second ?



I'll put my 875" mod, up against "no cover" any time u want. But not with my saw.

the way it was explained to me by my motocross buddy was yes back pressure isn't as much of an issue at top end. but at idle and or low rpm, it's a problem. I don't remember why though.


but the bottom line is - results. and im seeing the best results with the .875" wide weave. Could that change with a ported saw...hell yeah!


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I'll put my 875" mod, up against "no cover" any time u want. But not with my saw.
> 
> the way it was explained to me by my motocross buddy was yes back pressure isn't as much of an issue at top end. but at idle and or low rpm, it's a problem. I don't remember why though.


Totally different application. Like I said, these aren't tuned pipes.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> Totally different application. Like I said, these aren't tuned pipes.




like I said < I'll put my .875 mod up against anything. no baffle, no cover, 3" hole in the cover, no muffler on at all ...whatever. Based on my testing...I bet I'll win. 

disclaimer - except piped. i just know someone gonna come up with that. lol


----------



## bwalker

Never had a problem with not running screens.


----------



## blsnelling

Timberwolf did documented testing years ago. His findings where exactly what I demonstrated. His findings were that the larger the open, the faster the cut times. However, it was a case of diminishing returns after a certain point, and idle and throttle response might suffer.

Not only were my cut times measurably faster, but throttle response was amazing. The MTronic completely compensated for it.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> like I said < I'll put my .875 mod up against anything. no baffle, no cover, 3" hole in the cover, no muffler on at all ...whatever. Based on my testing...I bet I'll win.
> 
> disclaimer - except piped. i just know someone gonna come up with that. lol


I believe you to be right. Years ago I did some testing on a stock ms 440 and ported ms260 and found that once you went over a certain area of muffler opening torque fell off and so did cut times. I have also muffler modded saws and noticed no differance other than increased noise.
Likely what size opening a saw likes is highly model specific. With that said I no longer will own a saw with too much muffler opening, ported or otherwise. I have 90% hearing loose in some frequencies in my left ear, and would like to preserve what hearing I have left. Even with plugs and muffs, my ported EHP 346 makes my ears ring for hours.


----------



## Big_Wood

my dad gave me this book when i was 6 LOL mufflers these days are what they are because of the EPA and to keep noise levels down. if performance was top priority there would be no back pressure at all. despite the long live AS myth that there must be.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> RE: TCW3 marine oils. Back in the 90's snowmobiles OEM's reccomended their sleds be an on tcw3 oils. They worked ok, but we're a little dirty depending on the oil. Output began to really climb and exhaust port height modifying valves became common place so the OEM'S changed to low ash, API TC type oils.
> In 1996 IIRC I had a polaris 440 race sled that was the first polaris motor with exhaust valves. Using Phillips injex, which was a decent quality outboard oil, the exhaust valves seized within 500 miles. When I removed them I noted the pistons looked terrible too. Ever since this I have not run a tcw3 oil in anything other than an outboard and even then am quit picky on what oil I use. The only exception is Lawnboy mowers which really require a ashless tcw3 type oil.



On the Lawn Boy , I've run both my F and D series mowers for years with Stihl Dino oil at 50:1 and never had to clean the exhaust ports which is common with dirty oils . Ports have stayed very clean as well as the piston . Of course these engines are only running at around 3500 RPM .


----------



## nitehawk55

Justsaws said:


> Depending on how the temps are being taken there will be a good bit of variety with any change made.
> 
> I think the belief is that a modified saw will run "cooler" but could benefit from more oil because of the increase in various stresses, mostly bearings. If somebody " modified" one of my saws(made it louder) and made it run measurablely hotter at the same time I would not be pleased.
> 
> Get a temp for the saw at idle and then from as screaming hot as you are willing to get it, then compare how long it takes to cool back down to idle temp, with the spark screen change. Screaming hot, not warmed nicely, make sure to leave just enough fuel in the tank to allow for the saw to cool back down to idle.



It's usually tampering with the ignition timing that can make them run hot .


----------



## blsnelling

I have NEVER seen a muffler mod slow a saw down. I've seen them not make much difference, but even that is very rare. Why do you think stock appearing race saws often shoot straight out the front of the muffler? Giving the exhaust the path of least resistance will make the most performance.

Now with that said, I don't think overly aggressive muffler mods are necessary for a great running saw, even ported. Many don't want the extra noise. But, in principle, the more the merrier.


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> On the Lawn Boy , I've run both my F and D series mowers for years with Stihl Dino oil at 50:1 and never had to clean the exhaust ports which is common with dirty oils . Ports have stayed very clean as well as the piston . Of course these engines are only running at around 3500 RPM .


I tried running my lb duraforce commercial on 50:1 Husky oil and toasted a big end rod bearing. The rod bearing on the duraforce is so chincy I wouldn't trust anything less than 32:1, which is what lb recomends. I also went through a plug or two a year using low ash oil. Its a shame the damn things have fixed jet carbs as I
I am sure once tuned right the plug fouling would stop.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> yeah I also had a larger port with the wide weave arrestor screen. It was slower then the .875" with wide weave. When I put in a stock screen into the "larger port" it gained a lot of ground on the .875" wide weave. Seems you Can let out too much. So I'd say there is a happy medium.
> 
> On a 661 stock saw that medium seems to be having the wide weave screen with a port at ~.875"-.900" If u wanna run the stock arrestor screen then you'd need to make the port just a bit bigger yet.


I will have to measure my hybrid ,but i am willing to bet my 3 exhaust ports are close to or bigger than the exhaust port in the head ,and it runs well .,i have found the screens will muffle noise some also .


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I tried running my lb duraforce commercial on 50:1 Husky oil and toasted a big end rod bearing. The rod bearing on the duraforce is so chincy I wouldn't trust anything less than 32:1, which is what lb recomends. I also went through a plug or two a year using low ash oil. Its a shame the damn things have fixed jet carbs as I
> I am sure once tuned right the plug fouling would stop.


It would sure be nice if saws carbs were as tunable as a 38mmm air stryker keihin ,could always run a lean pilot and fat needle to get nice throttle response ,but i can not find any clips on my needle in the saw to adjust ,and the pilot is fixed i believe


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> Never had a problem with not running screens.



That will get you a fat fine here if they catch you w/o a muffler screen. If you start a fire with a saw (or anything else) they can bill you for the fire suppression fees, which can be in the million$ here.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I just run less restrictive screen..i just dont want any tarantulas crawlin in muh saw.


----------



## Ron660

This is the oil a local Logger prefers. He said he gets about 5 years out of his 372's mixed at 25:1. I bought this bottle, 6.4oz, for $1!


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> That will get you a fat fine here if they catch you w/o a muffler screen. If you start a fire with a saw (or anything else) they can bill you for the fire suppression fees, which can be in the million$ here.


Its mostly deciduous forests here and it's wet as a rule. The odds of starting a fire are slim to nill. And it's also all private land, so there is no they, ie the FS, BLM, etc.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> Its mostly deciduous forests here and it's wet as a rule. The odds of starting a fire are slim to nill. And it's also all private land, so there is no they, ie the FS, BLM, etc.



Here in this state (and all the adjacent states in the west), they do not mess around with fire restrictions or regulations. If you start a fire on your own land, or on BLM land, FS land (national or state), be it from fence welding, chainsaw activity, or with a pack of matches, you are liable for any fires started by you, or as a consequence of your activity or from managing your property and/or logging. The later also means things like if you leave unburned slash piles and lighting strikes it and starts a fire, you are liable for the fire. You must also have a minimum of fire suppression equipment handy when wood cutting here in most places during fire season, like shovels, rakes, extinguishers, etc. The fines vary by state/region/county/reservation for removing spark arrestors on any type of vehicle or chainsaw. 'They' here means any number of law enforcement like state police, sheriffs, local police, fire district personnel, fire crews, OSHA, BLM, USDA, Indian Reservation police, state and national forest service, yadda yadda.

Also any and all forestry and logging activity here in the west is strictly regulated during fire season. They set up time of day restrictions in 4 phases here: normal/unrestricted, semi-hoot owl, hoot owl, and closed. Hoot owl restrictions limit the time of day that you can cut and perform certain logging activities, like chainsawing, skidding and truck loading. Generally it is designed to keep you from starting fires from logging activity during the hottest hours of the day, depending on conditions which change over the year and from year to year. And it does not matter where you are logging; private land, BLM, forestry land, or whatever. Restrictions (and exceptions) apply to whatever fire district that you are in.


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> Here in this state (and all the adjacent states in the west), they do not mess around with fire restrictions or regulations. If you start a fire on your own land, or on BLM land, FS land (national or state), be it from fence welding, chainsaw activity, or with a pack of matches, you are liable for any fires started by you, or as a consequence of your activity or from managing your property and/or logging. The later also means things like if you leave unburned slash piles and lighting strikes it and starts a fire, you are liable for the fire. Generally here you must also burn your slash by law in the wet season. You must also have a minimum of fire suppression equipment handy when wood cutting here in most places, like shovels, rakes, extinguishers, etc. The fines vary by state/region/county/reservation for removing spark arrestors on any type of vehicle or chainsaw. 'They' here means any number of law enforcement like state police, sheriffs, local police, fire district personnel, fire crews, OSHA, BLM, USDA, Indian Reservation police, state and national forest service, yadda yadda.
> 
> Also any and all forestry and logging activity here in the west is strictly regulated during fire season. They set up time of day restrictions in 4 phases here: normal/unrestricted, semi-hoot owl, hoot owl, and closed. Hoot owl restrictions limit the time of day that you can cut and perform certain logging activities, like chainsawing, skidding and truck loading. Generally it is designed to keep you from starting fires from logging activity during the hottest hours of the day, depending on conditions which change over the year and from year to year. And it does not matter where you are logging; private land, BLM, forestry land, or whatever. Restrictions apply to the entire area of the fire district that you are in. They generally exempt urban area arbor work and the like, but it varies by district, county and state.


You can't compare our forests to yours. We might have a forest fire of decent size once every few years, and then it's always in jacking or red pines forests, which are more like what you guys deal with. I never cut jackpine, so it's not an issue for me. When I logged we also never got checked by anyone on private land, ever.


----------



## windthrown

Few get checked here either on private land until something happens and they are investigated, or someone turns them in. Then there was what happened after that TV show AxeMen went on the air. OSHA rarely went out anywhere to check rigging and equipment around here, until that show came on. Then every logging crew and site on that show had at least one, if not several OSHA people show up and hand out citations and fines. All they had to do was watch the show and look for infractions to write up citations. It was a turkey shoot for them.

Then there was that fool that did the log salvage in Washington state rivers. He was also on AxeMen, and the state shut his azz down in a hurry after his episodes aired. It was an open and shut case in court. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, just watch the TV". He is somewhere in the South now I think? Swamp Logger or something like that? Dumb as a stump?


----------



## 2dogs

windthrown said:


> Here in this state (and all the adjacent states in the west), they do not mess around with fire restrictions or regulations. If you start a fire on your own land, or on BLM land, FS land (national or state), be it from fence welding, chainsaw activity, or with a pack of matches, you are liable for any fires started by you, or as a consequence of your activity or from managing your property and/or logging. The later also means things like if you leave unburned slash piles and lighting strikes it and starts a fire, you are liable for the fire. You must also have a minimum of fire suppression equipment handy when wood cutting here in most places during fire season, like shovels, rakes, extinguishers, etc. The fines vary by state/region/county/reservation for removing spark arrestors on any type of vehicle or chainsaw. 'They' here means any number of law enforcement like state police, sheriffs, local police, fire district personnel, fire crews, OSHA, BLM, USDA, Indian Reservation police, state and national forest service, yadda yadda.
> 
> Also any and all forestry and logging activity here in the west is strictly regulated during fire season. They set up time of day restrictions in 4 phases here: normal/unrestricted, semi-hoot owl, hoot owl, and closed. Hoot owl restrictions limit the time of day that you can cut and perform certain logging activities, like chainsawing, skidding and truck loading. Generally it is designed to keep you from starting fires from logging activity during the hottest hours of the day, depending on conditions which change over the year and from year to year. And it does not matter where you are logging; private land, BLM, forestry land, or whatever. Restrictions (and exceptions) apply to whatever fire district that you are in.



This wins post of the week. I would suggest everyone go to wildfiretoday.com and check out the latest video too.


----------



## _RJ_

I got checked last year on private property. No big deal all my saws are stock anyway. But you could tell they were on a witch hunt.


----------



## BuckMKII

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 428859
> 
> 
> This is the oil a local Logger prefers. He said he gets about 5 years out of his 372's mixed at 25:1. I bought this bottle, 6.4oz, for $1!



It's blended and bottled by Omni Specialty Packaging, the same folks who blend and bottle Stihl's oils in NA. The price is certainly right and available at my local mower shop and Walmart dirt cheap. They claim that it meets JASO FD.

Data sheet:
http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/pds/F-70 Synthetic Blend 2-Cycle.pdf

MSDS:
http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/msds/2-Cycle Engine Oil.pdf


----------



## porsche965

Would it run at 100:1?


----------



## BuckMKII

porsche965 said:


> Would it run at 100:1?



I wouldn't run any oil 100:1 in anything that I cared about. Even if it was spiked with liberal tears.


----------



## windthrown

2dogs said:


> This wins post of the week. I would suggest everyone go to wildfiretoday.com and check out the latest video too.



Cool site. Amusing read about the BLM Jeep in Anza Borrego/Mt. Laguna. I used to live in San Diego and go off roading out there every spring. I added it to my favorites list which also has this site, which I live by in summer here.

http://www.esri.com/services/disaster-response/wildlandfire/latest-news-map

Last year my brother and I were 500 yards or so from a lightning strike that started a medium size fire out in a one horse town called Post, the geographical center of Oregon. Damn thing had me out of my own skin and in the car in a nanosecond. The firefighters at the motel we stayed at that night said they left the fire line on another fire near where we were because of those lightning strikes. Too dangerous. Fortunately it rained there that night and they got those under control the following day.


----------



## windthrown

BuckMKII said:


> I wouldn't run any oil 100:1 in anything that I cared about. Even if it was spiked with liberal tears.



Liberal tears... is that the same stuff that rusts my guns even when they are oiled down and kept in a dry place?


----------



## BuckMKII

wiwn said:


> Liberal tears... is that the same stuff that rusts my guns even when they are oiled down and kept in a dry place?




Yes theres nothing sweeter than liberal tears but they are corrosive to firearms.


----------



## gomoto69

I started a fire with my saw the summer i was learning to fall trees. Hot july weather in the shuswap, last trees i cut were a couple big cottonwoods, then walked to the truck, luckily my boss noticed a puff of smoke coming from where i had been working, he jumped on the skidder and got it stomped out. Could have been bad as it was friday afternoon and we were all headed to town. And no, i didn't have a spark screen, so it can happen!


----------



## windthrown

A quote for the ages!



BuckMKII said:


> Yes theres nothing sweeter than liberal tears but they are corrosive to firearms.


----------



## bwalker

I could throw a molatov cocktail into the woods around here and the fire would be out in 10 minutes. Simply not that same as Western soft wood forest.


----------



## gomoto69

Its amazing how hot a green needle softwood canopy will burn in hot weather. I read somewhere that green needles contain oxygen, adding to the intense heat, crown's almost explode in forest fires


----------



## Ron660

BuckMKII said:


> It's blended and bottled by Omni Specialty Packaging, the same folks who blend and bottle Stihl's oils in NA. The price is certainly right and available at my local mower shop and Walmart dirt cheap. They claim that it meets JASO FD.
> 
> Data sheet:
> http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/pds/F-70 Synthetic Blend 2-Cycle.pdf
> 
> MSDS:
> http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/msds/2-Cycle Engine Oil.pdf


 Think I might go buy the rest. This particular store, Bumper to Bumper, is getting out of retail sales and only doing repairs. He had several more 6-packs of the 6.4oz oil ($6 - 6 pk). Also the large bottles of bar oil for $5.


----------



## bwalker

gomoto69 said:


> Its amazing how hot a green needle softwood canopy will burn in hot weather. I read somewhere that green needles contain oxygen, adding to the intense heat, crown's almost explode in forest fires


The other thing that's shocking is how fast conifer forests dry out. I lived in the boreal forest of northern Canada for 6 years and if you didn't get rain every few days it became very dry. And the forest fires where intense and large.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> like I said < I'll put my .875 mod up against anything. no baffle, no cover, 3" hole in the cover, no muffler on at all ...whatever. Based on my testing...I bet I'll win.
> 
> disclaimer - except piped. i just know someone gonna come up with that. lol


http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/ms661c-muffler-mod-testing.281169/


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> The other thing that's shocking is how fast conifer forests dry out. I lived in the boreal forest of northern Canada for 6 years and if you didn't get rain every few days it became very dry. And the forest fires where intense and large.



The beetles are getting to a lot of the species in the boreal forests now and killing them. Like they have killed the pines in he US west.

And speaking of tree crowns almost exploding, they actually do explode. I have seen them. There was the HUGE fire in San Diego County that started in a stand of beetle kill pine that the greenies would not allow to be logged for 'environmental' reasons. They tied logging up in court until a heat wave came along and burned it all down. That fire was massive. I watched as tree after tree burst into flames. You could see the gasses streaming out of the trees as they heated up and then the fire leapt across the front and woosh! Fire is a huge issue here where I live in the Mt. Hood National Forest. I have a steel roof house and Hardie siding. I applaud when my neighbors here log their tracts. But my pines will become Roman candles in any good forest fire here, as embers descend from the smoke. I get a lot of fly ash dumped here during forest fires, and a lot of smoke. *cough cough* The last big one near here last year was started by a few idiots shooting exploding targets during a red flag day. The brain trust of Oregon...


----------



## gomoto69

The national parks here are having the same problem, no logging, pine beetle kill, no access roads, banff and glacier n.p. especially, are a time bomb waiting to go, this year is bad already, low snow pack, dry spring, all of bc and alberta already high fire hazard, and it's not even hot yet


----------



## Ron660

BuckMKII said:


> It's blended and bottled by Omni Specialty Packaging, the same folks who blend and bottle Stihl's oils in NA. The price is certainly right and available at my local mower shop and Walmart dirt cheap. They claim that it meets JASO FD.
> 
> Data sheet:
> http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/pds/F-70 Synthetic Blend 2-Cycle.pdf
> 
> MSDS:
> http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/msds/2-Cycle Engine Oil.pdf


That packaging plant is about 10 miles from my house. I think they get their base oil from the Shreveport Calumet Refinery. I knew they provided the base oil for the orange bottle Stihl oil and currently Royal Purple. Keith and I are thinking that Pure Guard might be the same as the discontinued Stihl Super HP oil.


----------



## BuckMKII

Ron660 said:


> Think I might go buy the rest. This particular store, Bumper to Bumper, is getting out of retail sales and only doing repairs. He had several more 6-packs of the 6.4oz oil ($6 - 6 pk). Also the large bottles of bar oil for $5.



I'd buy it all up, use it with confidence and never think twice if you were running the right oil. I've ran a bunch of this oil through my 20 year old Stihl FS88 trimmer and I've never had any problems with it. there is no objectionable smell or excessive smoke at 32:1 to 50:1 ratio.


----------



## BuckMKII

The Pure Guard may very well be the same oil as the HP Super. I would look up the MSDS but I'm on my cell phone now. I see that Calumet and Omni are next door neighbors there in Shreveport. It would make sense that they would buy products from one another.


----------



## redbull660

BuckMKII said:


> It's blended and bottled by Omni Specialty Packaging, the same folks who blend and bottle Stihl's oils in NA. The price is certainly right and available at my local mower shop and Walmart dirt cheap. They claim that it meets JASO FD.
> 
> Data sheet:
> http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/pds/F-70 Synthetic Blend 2-Cycle.pdf
> 
> MSDS:
> http://www.pureguard.com/products/small_engine_oils/msds/2-Cycle Engine Oil.pdf




no offense but looking at the msds of this stuff vs all the others we've looked at...this stuff looks like junk. I'd run Lucas before I ran this stuff.


----------



## bwalker

I just checked out the msds and it appears to still use brite stock. I would pass.
Also highly doubt it woukd pass FD.


----------



## bwalker

FWIW I was at the saw shop yesterday and noted that at the oil contained in husky's pre mixed fuel is actually FD certified. The cert number was posted on the container.


----------



## one.man.band

windthrown said:


> The web gave me an error yesterday saying that this site did not exist.



curiously.......i get a different message, that always says "site has gone downhill"


----------



## one.man.band

maybe it is just my connection?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> That packaging plant is about 10 miles from my house. I think they get their base oil from the Shreveport Calumet Refinery. I knew they provided the base oil for the orange bottle Stihl oil and currently Royal Purple. Keith and I are thinking that Pure Guard might be the same as the discontinued Stihl Super HP oil.


I wouldn't assume that because one company packages several different oils that one or any of them are the same.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Yamalube seems like good oil , my 241 started runnin farky last week..a reset and this yamalube at 36:1 and it seems to run fine.

Coincidence ?


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Yamalube seems like good oil , my 241 started runnin farky last week..a reset and this yamalube at 36:1 and it seems to run fine.
> 
> Coincidence ?


I tried 2.5 gal at 40 to 1 so far , used 1.25 gallons so far 32 to 1 ,just mixed another 1.25 gal jug last night ,it combusts better than the belray in my opinion ,but the dumonde tech seemed to make better power in my saws ,not a whole lot ,but i can tell the difference,crisper response piss reving ,plug burns cleaner also ,but it is over twice the price of yamalube ,and with the dye i can tell the fuel is mixed . Why 36 to 1 ?


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I tried 2.5 gal at 40 to 1 so far , used 1.25 gallons so far 32 to 1 ,just mixed another 1.25 gal jug last night ,it combusts better than the belray in my opinion ,but the dumonde tech seemed to make better power in my saws ,not a whole lot ,but i can tell the difference,crisper response piss reving ,plug burns cleaner also ,but it is over twice the price of yamalube ,and with the dye i can tell the fuel is mixed .


Do you re-tune the carb for the different oil mixxes ?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I tried 2.5 gal at 40 to 1 so far , used 1.25 gallons so far 32 to 1 ,just mixed another 1.25 gal jug last night ,it combusts better than the belray in my opinion ,but the dumonde tech seemed to make better power in my saws ,not a whole lot ,but i can tell the difference,crisper response piss reving ,plug burns cleaner also ,but it is over twice the price of yamalube ,and with the dye i can tell the fuel is mixed . Why 36 to 1 ?



I think 36 is a cooler number than 32


----------



## KenJax Tree

36:1 is easy to measure...3.5oz per gallon


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Do you re-tune the carb for the different oil mixxes ?


the yamalube and the dtp both pulled hard and clean with the same tune ,h1r i had to retune to run right ,this is on my milling 660 ,so rich is fine with me on that one ,i just used up the tank of dumonde in my hybrid ,that saw i know in and out for tuning ,i just filled the tank with 32 to 1 yamalube last night ,if tuning makes any difference changing between the 2 i will be able to feel it in that saw


----------



## the GOAT

How come no one ever runs an odd number ratio?? Is there bad juju running 33:1 or 37:1?


----------



## Trx250r180

the GOAT said:


> How come no one ever runs an odd number ratio?? Is there bad juju running 33:1 or 37:1?


Goat


----------



## Ron660

the GOAT said:


> How come no one ever runs an odd number ratio?? Is there bad juju running 33:1 or 37:1?


 I hate odd numbers. I only buy even year vehicles.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> I hate odd numbers. I only buy even year vehicles.


U need a 395xp, 361, or a 461!! Lol!!


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> U need a 395xp, 361, or a 461!! Lol!!


No way...that's bad luck. The last two saws I bought was a 660 and a 390xp....all even numbers. I was born on an even day and year. Can't break the good luck.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> No way...that's bad luck. The last two saws I bought was a 660 and a 390xp....all even numbers.


Im gonna have to get a hot 7900 to whoop up on them 2!!!! Lol!!


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I just checked out the msds and it appears to still use brite stock. I would pass.
> Also highly doubt it woukd pass FD.


 What's the issue with "brite stock"? Tech sheet claims a FD rating.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Im gonna have to get a hot 7900 to whoop up on them 2!!!! Lol!!


 Then I'd have to get a hot 3120.


----------



## mdavlee

the GOAT said:


> How come no one ever runs an odd number ratio?? Is there bad juju running 33:1 or 37:1?


I run 25:1 sometimes when I'm only milling out of the fuel.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> Then I'd have to get a hot *3160*.


Fixed


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> What's the issue with "brite stock"? Tech sheet claims a FD rating.


Burns very dirty. Claiming that you meet a standard and actually beinf certified are two different things. 
A oil containing brite stock will not pass FD.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Burns very dirty. Claiming that you meet a standard and actually beinf certified are two different things.
> A oil containing brite stock will not pass FD.


I believe it says meets or exceeds fb,fc, and fd but if it doesnt have the box with the number the manufacturer is only claiming and the oil hasnt actually been certified by JASO


----------



## CR888

Retailers of oil are pretty much allowed to write what ever they like on their bottles. Usually very few of the claims are facts. Most of whats on a bottle is marketing to an uninformed buyer. The problem is that it works well.....most here are in search of an fd full sythetic oil believing thats what is best for their saw.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Im gonna have to get a hot 7900 to whoop up on them 2!!!! Lol!!


 Or maybe a ported 084 or 088.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Burns very dirty. Claiming that you meet a standard and actually beinf certified are two different things.
> A oil containing brite stock will not pass FD.


 How much oil would you recommend using before a good representation of the quality can be determined?


----------



## mdavlee

I peeked at a piston and it had a brown top today. I may have to tear it down and clean it up. Oil was klotz super and then k2 for the 2nd tank. 

I did stop by the Suzuki shop and all they had was dominator and super M half gallon. I passed on both. They were sold out of all but 2 bottles of mix. Said they would have a order in on Tuesday.


----------



## KG441c

Why u gonna clean it up Mike? U dont build alil carbon on top?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I believe it says meets or exceeds fb,fc, and fd but if it doesnt have the box with the number the manufacturer is only claiming and the oil hasnt actually been certified by JASO


Scamsoil once claimed one of their oils met tcw3 and iso egd, which is technically not possible.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> How much oil would you recommend using before a good representation of the quality can be determined?


35 hours in a bike or 50 gallons of fuel in a saw is a decent start.


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Why u gonna clean it up Mike? U dont build alil carbon on top?


I was just joking. I may open it up to change port timing more.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I was just joking. I may open it up to change port timing more.


Lol!! U had me confused!!! Of course that guy on here awhile back laughed because I tore my down to take a look!!! Said he ran his saws 10yrs and never saw the inside until he parted the saw out? Wonder why the saw needed parting out?


----------



## Gypo Logger

Is Happy Hour over yet?


----------



## big t double

Gypo Logger said:


> Is Happy Hour over yet?View attachment 429127


Fail sir...I don't see an empty one of these in there


----------



## RedFir Down

Gypo Logger said:


> Is Happy Hour over yet?View attachment 429127



No, no its not John.


----------



## Gypo Logger

RedFir Down said:


> No, no its not John.
> View attachment 429129


A spritzer, I'm jealous. I'm drinking some ole style Pilsner.


----------



## RedFir Down

Gypo Logger said:


> A spritzer, I'm jealous. I'm drinking some ole style Pilsner.


Well I'll be honest I splurged... the BV Reserve was on sale for like like a dollar more than regular BV which put it right at $21 a half.
I only had 2 IPA's the fridge when I looked tonight and knew that wasn't going to cut it!!


----------



## Gypo Logger

Good on you! A guy needs to plurge once in awhile.


----------



## Trx250r180

RedFir Down said:


> No, no its not John.
> View attachment 429129


What ratio you mixing at?


----------



## RedFir Down

Trx250r180 said:


> What ratio you mixing at?


1:1 usually. Unless a guy feels the need to richen it up a bit.


----------



## snoozeys

I just use 40:1 with husky oil 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## huskihl

snoozeys said:


> I just use 40:1 with husky oil
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


Yea but....that's no fun. Not nearly enough controversy for this crew.


----------



## snoozeys

Cooking oil is a good substitute for chain oil 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## huskihl

snoozeys said:


> Cooking oil is a good substitute for chain oil
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


That's what they keep sayin......


----------



## KenJax Tree

huskihl said:


> Yea but....that's no fun. Not nearly enough controversy for this crew.


Yup if everyone ran 40:1 we wouldn't have an oil thread with over 5000 posts.


----------



## huskihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Yup if everyone ran 40:1 we wouldn't have an oil thread with over 5000 posts.


Just imagine kicking back in your lazy, reading AS. Nothing much goin on...oh look. An oil thread. That'll be entertaining. 











Wtf were we thinkin?


----------



## Ron660

RedFir Down said:


> No, no its not John.
> View attachment 429129


 Does the Sprite increase or decrease the viscosity going down?


----------



## RedFir Down

Ron660 said:


> Does the Sprite increase or decrease the viscosity going down?


Decreases. I doesn't burn as well but still does the trick.


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Lol!! U had me confused!!! Of course that guy on here awhile back laughed because I tore my down to take a look!!! Said he ran his saws 10yrs and never saw the inside until he parted the saw out? Wonder why the saw needed parting out?


I did tear the 272 apart today. It did have a nice brown top already. I forgot a picture though


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I did tear the 272 apart today. It did have a nice brown top already. I forgot a picture though


We will let u slide this time!!!lol!!


----------



## bwalker




----------



## KenJax Tree

Do they use the XP blend oil in that?


----------



## blsnelling

I'm not a fan of Husky oil. None of their offerings are true synthetics. I've notices over time that the saws that I see running it are dirtier than others as well.


----------



## bwalker

Took down a very large standing dead red oak today and another dead one that a storm took out. One was 38" DBH and the other 33". Used my stock 562xp with a 24" bar and 72LGX chain. Needless to say the saw was given a work out. Especially so given the fact I had to rip the rounds in half to make handling easier. Knowing I was going to load the saw up pretty good I decided to try K2 at 20:1. Worked like a charm and noticed no differance in engine performance, smoke ,etc. 
The only thing thing I can complain about was the fact that the 562's oiler isn't adequate for a 24" bar and the saw was way under powered for a dense
UP red oak of this size


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Do they use the XP blend oil in that?


Not sure. The bottle of XP oil do not carry the FD logo though.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I'm not a fan of Husky oil. None of their offerings are true synthetics. I've notices over time that the saws that I see running it are dirtier than others as well.


I haven't seen enough engines run on silver bottle Husky oil to say for sure, but it has seemed ok when I have ran it.
Writing off a oil because it's not a "true synthetic" isnt very sharp. There are full synthetics that suck azz, just as there are blends and mineral oils that suck azz.


----------



## porsche965

What does running an oil at 20:1 do to cost efficiency of the oil? Sounds rather expensive to me.

Wouldn't a better choice be an oil that don't have to run all doubled up over itself make more sense?

Nice pics.


----------



## Bwildered

porsche965 said:


> What does running an oil at 20:1 do to cost efficiency of the oil? Sounds rather expensive to me.
> 
> Wouldn't a better choice be an oil that don't have to run all doubled up over itself make more sense?
> 
> Nice pics.


To you & me it makes no sense! We call that a WOFTAM
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> What does running an oil at 20:1 do to cost efficiency of the oil? Sounds rather expensive to me.
> 
> Wouldn't a better choice be an oil that don't have to run all doubled up over itself make more sense?
> 
> Nice pics.


The cost is negliable, given I typically don't run a saw like this case.
K2 is very high quality oil, so IT CAN be doubled up. The load involved, specifically the ripping and running a 24" bar in our hardwoods with a stock 60cc saw merited 20:1 IMO and IME.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> To you & me it makes no sense! We call that a WOFTAM
> Thansk


Probaly a lot you don't understand...


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> The cost is negliable, given I typically don't run a saw like this case.
> K2 is very high quality oil, so IT CAN be doubled up. The load involved, specifically the ripping and running a 24" bar in our hardwoods with a stock 60cc saw merited 20:1 IMO and IME.


So how did your exhaust outlet look ?
Clean right ?
Pics ?

Also looks like alot of dust ............... maybe that chain didnt like the rotten wood and dulled some going through it ? Was the chain hot from not enough oil ?


----------



## porsche965

I'm in Goonies with a 36" bar in Red oak also and run over double your ratio. I use a step stool to cut over trunks laying on the ground to reach over the tops. NO problem 

I'd put my oil up against anyone elses out there, zip tying new saws for a grand to the winner  100:1 ratio of course.

That's efficiency.


----------



## porsche965

I just love the biggest, most bad azz Goonies N.E. Ohio has to offer. 

What gives me joy are 4 to 6 limbs coming out of a jointed 50" plus tree and busting through them all at once! Lol


----------



## porsche965

...cost is neglible? Doubling up anything costs twice as much last time I looked!


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> ...cost is neglible? Doubling up anything costs twice as much last time I looked!


2 gallons of fuel, once or twice a year. I think I can afford it with out donating plasma.


----------



## porsche965

But most are not in your envious circumstance. From your posts I'd have thought you had a fleet of saws and a tanker standing by lol. Along with a full crew of a dozen chainsaw smiths!


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> So how did your exhaust outlet look ?
> Clean right ?
> Pics ?
> 
> Also looks like alot of dust ............... maybe that chain didnt like the rotten wood and dulled some going through it ? Was the chain hot from not enough oil ?


Exhaust outlet pic attached.


Dead red oak is dusty no matter what. Chain was sharp and there was very little rotten wood. Just a bit of shake on the one that blew over and the other was completley sound.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> But most are not in your envious circumstance. From your posts I'd have thought you had a fleet of saws and a tanker standing by lol. Along with a full crew of a dozen chainsaw smiths!


I have a few in the quiver, but got rid of my big iron several years ago as I just didn't use it much. Most of our wood is small given the short growing season so a 60cc saw works just fine for me.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I have a few..




562s sometimes amaze me what they will do. Lots of heart for the buck.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I'm in Goonies with a 36" bar in Red oak also and run over double your ratio. I use a step stool to cut over trunks laying on the ground to reach over the tops. NO problem
> 
> I'd put my oil up against anyone elses out there, zip tying new saws for a grand to the winner  100:1 ratio of course.
> 
> That's efficiency.


Wouldn't run 100:1 in a Wild Thing I hated..


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> 562s sometimes amaze me what they will do. Lots of heart for the buck.


Since I got it I rarely pic up my other saws. Like it alot.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Since I got it I rarely pic up my other saws. Like it alot.



I know the feeling. But in bad stuff the 661c is a GIANT 562xt if you will. I just leave the big bar on it and often grab the 562 to see what it can do. 

When you are using the right ratio and oil for the job at hand the AT and Mtrons are a lot of fun to listen to how they sort out the demands at hand. Since the screwdrivers are useless with these new saws, I've found the ratios and oils are the only things I can change up to deliver optimum performance. Call me nuts, no wait, I will first, I'm nuts, but messing with the ratios and oils have become a challenge and fun to see the results. I blasted 64:1 ratio yesterday and nothing blew apart lol. And also ran 43:1 too. 

If certainty brings happiness in your life so be it but I sure like the edge. There isn't a mistake, health aside, that $ can't fix.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Exhaust outlet pic attached.
> View attachment 429283
> 
> Dead red oak is dusty no matter what. Chain was sharp and there was very little rotten wood. Just a bit of shake on the one that blew over and the other was completley sound.



That is a good looking muffler exhaust IMO.


----------



## blsnelling

John, I here by nick name you "*The Goonie Buster*"


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Since I got it I rarely pic up my other saws. Like it alot.



I didn't think they could get better until I ported a couple. Oh boy


----------



## porsche965

blsnelling said:


> John, I here by nick name you "*The Goonie Buster*"



Until one rolls on my azz and I'll post no more lol. Man are these 24" rounds heavy.


----------



## blsnelling

*Goonie Buster* must be part ninja, lol.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I didn't think they could get better until I ported a couple. Oh boy


I am contemplating porting right now..it's the only stock saw I own right now.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I know the feeling. But in bad stuff the 661c is a GIANT 562xt if you will. I just leave the big bar on it and often grab the 562 to see what it can do.
> 
> When you are using the right ratio and oil for the job at hand the AT and Mtrons are a lot of fun to listen to how they sort out the demands at hand. Since the screwdrivers are useless with these new saws, I've found the ratios and oils are the only things I can change up to deliver optimum performance. Call me nuts, no wait, I will first, I'm nuts, but messing with the ratios and oils have become a challenge and fun to see the results. I blasted 64:1 ratio yesterday and nothing blew apart lol. And also ran 43:1 too.
> 
> If certainty brings happiness in your life so be it but I sure like the edge. There isn't a mistake, health aside, that $ can't fix.


I would love a 661, just have no use for one. I don't have a tree over 30" on my acreage, and most are much smaller. A ported 346XPG was my only saw for quit a few years and it worked just fine


----------



## porsche965

porsche965 said:


> Until one rolls on my azz and I'll post no more lol. Man are these 24" rounds heavy.



That's in widths of course X 48" plus to 60" usually. 

They save them for me  And I'm thankful.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I would love a 661, just have no use for one. I don't have a tree over 30" on my acreage, and most are much smaller. A ported 346XPG was my only saw for quit a few years and it worked just fine



Knowing what is needed in life verses what is desired is a sign of wisdom. I sure missed that one by a bunch lol. We tend to start at the top of the HP range for what is needed instead of exhausting the capabilities of the smaller cc saws. In doing so I've missed the nuances that the small saws should have been telling me. I've changed now


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I have a few in the quiver, but got rid of my big iron several years ago as I just didn't use it much. Most of our wood is small given the short growing season so a 60cc saw works just fine for me.


I only limb with my 60cc saw....think it's actually 59cc (036). Once you use a larger ported saw it's hard to go back.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I wonder how many tree are passed up that only need a 50cc-60cc saws on AS to find trees to justify the BSLB syndrome (big saw, long bar)that seems to infect AS members.


----------



## porsche965

A lot. I save the smaller ones for when I'm worn out.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> I only limb with my 60cc saw....think it's actually 59cc (036). Once you use a larger ported saw it's hard to go back.


Ported 461 is a great all around saw. A 20" bar and a 28 to 32 bar and its pretty much covered


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Ported 461 is a great all around saw. A 20" bar and a 28 to 32 bar and its pretty much covered


Ported 390xp will do all that better!


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Ported 390xp will do all that better!


Agreed! Thats why I have both but the 461 to me with a 28 es light is no slouch and balances perfect.


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder how many tree are passed up that only need a 50cc-60cc saw on AS to find trees to justify the BSLB syndrome (big saw, long bar)that seems to infect AS members.


I don't pass much of anything up when I'm cutting usually doing whole tree clean up. I will pass up anything that's not worth the time to put on a mill in the woods though unless someone is there getting firewood at the same time. I do run the 550 a lot more than I used to.


----------



## snoozeys

I haven't found a problem running husky oils but in saying that I would change if the general consensus was a particular brand was better .. Open to suggestions !!!

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ron660

porsche965 said:


> A lot. I save the smaller ones for when I'm worn out.


My hunting buddies get all the small ones and save the bigger ones for me. But guess who they call when a big one falls by their deer stand?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder how many tree are passed up that only need a 50cc-60cc saws on AS to find trees to justify the BSLB syndrome (big saw, long bar)that seems to infect AS members.


i got a 24 on my 590 running full skip i only us it for felling or bucking. 
im working on getting a bigger saw for primary of felling since i got larger trees on the property im looking at a cs 800p and a 28''


----------



## SCHallenger

bwalker said:


> Took down a very large standing dead red oak today and another dead one that a storm took out. One was 38" DBH and the other 33". Used my stock 562xp with a 24" bar and 72LGX chain. Needless to say the saw was given a work out. Especially so given the fact I had to rip the rounds in half to make handling easier. Knowing I was going to load the saw up pretty good I decided to try K2 at 20:1. Worked like a charm and noticed no differance in engine performance, smoke ,etc.
> The only thing thing I can complain about was the fact that the 562's oiler isn't adequate for a 24" bar and the saw was way under powered for a denseView attachment 429263
> UP red oak of this size



That's surprising. One of the best things about my 562 is the ability to oil the 24in. bar with plenty to spare. I've also noodled 24in. long honey locust & black cherry with it. The honey locust is a lot harder than red oak. The oiler handled all easily. Just for the record, I was using the Husky canned stuff (95 octane with 50:1) & have removed the muff to look at the piston, etc. It looks very good.


----------



## porsche965

Does anyone run a different oil or ratio between their limbing saws and Goonie or Milling saws?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

limbing bucking or felling 32:1.


----------



## KenJax Tree

mdavlee said:


> I don't pass much of anything up when I'm cutting usually doing whole tree clean up. I will pass up anything that's not worth the time to put on a mill in the woods though unless someone is there getting firewood at the same time. I do run the 550 a lot more than I used to.


I didn't even have you in mind[emoji1] milling alone justifies a big saw and long bar. I mean guys that could easily cut firewood year after year with nothing more than a 50cc-60cc saw like Sunfish


----------



## mdavlee

I usually run the same 32:1. Sometimes I'll mix 25:1 or so just for milling.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> I didn't even have you in mind[emoji1] milling alone justifies a big saw and long bar. I mean guys that could easily cut firewood year after year with nothing more than a 50cc-60cc saw.


you talking about me to chris   i do my firewood with a 59cc.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> you talking about me to chris   i do my firewood with a 59cc.


Lol nope not you Jake that falls btwn 50-60....at least it did when i was in school.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm just saying if i could cut all my firewood with a 550 or 562 then why swing a 390 around all the time.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

the only purpose of a big saw is to cut big trees use the smaller saws for smaller trees makes no sense to use a 390 to cut a 16'' tree.


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm just saying if i could cut all my firewood with a 550 or 562 then why swing a 390 around all the time.



More time for this!


----------



## Ron660

jakewells said:


> the only purpose of a big saw is to cut big trees use the smaller saws for smaller trees makes no sense to use a 390 to cut a 16'' tree.


I like the longer bars when bucking....less bending and stress on your lower back.


----------



## Ron660

jakewells said:


> the only purpose of a big saw is to cut big trees use the smaller saws for smaller trees makes no sense to use a 390 to cut a 16'' tree.


I'd far rather buck with a 28" bar than an 18". My back says so.


----------



## bwalker

I use to think that a 60cc saw was kinda a bastard size, not particularly good at anything. I have changed my view and really the 562xp has become my do it all saw.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> the only purpose of a big saw is to cut big trees use the smaller saws for smaller trees makes no sense to use a 390 to cut a 16'' tree.


A 390 with a 16" is a firewood cutting SOB.


----------



## OnTheRoad

blsnelling said:


> I'm not a fan of Husky oil. None of their offerings are true synthetics. I've notices over time that the saws that I see running it are dirtier than others as well.


Reading this thread, I'm not sure I want a full synthetic. It sounds like a marketing gimmick to me.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> A 390 with a 16" is a firewood cutting SOB.


A ported one with a 16" bar would be a mean SOB.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> I usually run the same 32:1. Sometimes I'll mix 25:1 or so just for milling.


Sound logic.. and someone who gets oil ratio is dictated by load and rpm.


Ron660 said:


> A ported one with a 16" bar would be a mean SOB.


Even stock... a ported 660 is another bad azz firewood saw, especially when cutting decked logs.


----------



## KenJax Tree

See thats my point, why handle the weight of the 390 when i can use a 550[emoji1]


----------



## Flatie

bwalker said:


> Took down a very large standing dead red oak today and another dead one that a storm took out. One was 38" DBH and the other 33". Used my stock 562xp with a 24" bar and 72LGX chain. Needless to say the saw was given a work out. Especially so given the fact I had to rip the rounds in half to make handling easier. Knowing I was going to load the saw up pretty good I decided to try K2 at 20:1. Worked like a charm and noticed no differance in engine performance, smoke ,etc.
> The only thing thing I can complain about was the fact that the 562's oiler isn't adequate for a 24" bar and the saw was way under powered for a denseView attachment 429263
> UP red oak of this size


That looks like a prime example as an application for 800!
I actually ran a tank of 800 this weekend @ 40:1 and have to say had hardly any smoke no drool and was quite a pleasant smell compared with H1r!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I dont really have anything to contribute to these oil threads..but i have a BG 86 blower that i bet has well over 100 tanks of fuel through it..probably alot more actually and i ran it at 32:1 with belray and 90 e free gas and i took a peek at the piston on all sides and it looks brand new , just a little brown on the top bit no wear on the skirt or anything..does that mean anything ?

And i changed the plug this year and it looked like it was burnin perfect ..idk..help me understand all this.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> My favorite is Belray H1R



Is it still your favorite keith ?


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Is it still your favorite keith ?


Id use it . It ran my ported saws no problem. The only complaint I had with h1r was the smell


----------



## KG441c

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I dont really have anything to contribute to these oil threads..but i have a BG 86 blower that i bet has well over 100 tanks of fuel through it..probably alot more actually and i ran it at 32:1 with belray and 90 e free gas and i took a peek at the piston on all sides and it looks brand new , just a little brown on the top bit no wear on the skirt or anything..does that mean anything ?
> 
> And i changed the plug this year and it looked like it was burnin perfect ..idk..help me understand all this.


Blower runs wide open most of the time. That probably made a difference


----------



## Justsaws

Everything gets 32:1 these days. Saws, trimmers(FS130), blowers, clippers cultivators, augers, drills whatever happens to need mix is getting 32:1.

Have not had any problems that ratio being to much or not enough however if the cultivator(older Ryobi) idles for long the muffler starts getting oilly, cleans up fast WOT. Have not been able to remove that from idle. Been running about a gallon a week through that old Ryobi, shaft finally broke but the engine runs fine. Should have put some mix on the stubby flex cable.

If the tool came with a spark screen it still has it, the only "modified" or seriously repaired saw (350ish, squished, ground, bigger stuff) that I am currently using has a non modified muffler and screen. No issues with muffler/screen crud.


----------



## KG441c

KG441c said:


> Id use it . It ran my ported saws no problem. The only complaint I had with h1r was the smell


Ill run r50 @32:1 in my big cc saws and k2 @32:1 in mtronics


----------



## Moparmyway

5oz/gallon for stumping (25:1)................. 4oz/gallon for everything else (32:1)


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Ill run r50 @32:1 in my big cc saws and k2 @32:1 in mtronics


Why the different oils ?
Does the R50 run bad in the Mtronics ?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Probaly a lot you don't understand...


Absolutely! The weird & unwonderfull are really interesting sometimes, is there any chance of you timing some cuts at 20:1 & the recommended 50:1 so we can all understand what happens power wise, it could even back up your claims that its going to be better!
Thansk


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Why the different oils ?
> Does the R50 run bad in the Mtronics ?


Just a thought in my head and givin these 2 oils a try each


----------



## KenJax Tree

I like K2 but its expensive....my wallet likes the $10-$11 a quart stuff better[emoji1]


----------



## hardpan

Even though I am a low volume, non professional user I have read every post in this thread. It's OK we don't have a clear winner, as there is likely no such thing, but there has been maybe 5 or 6 contenders, mostly motorcycle oils. Of these I don't recall any jabs directed at r2 or k2 and even they are very different from each other. That tells me something. If I can't use the best then I will use the ones with the least negative feedback. I think? Maybe? LOL


----------



## Flatie

They had a few jabs! All of em have. Hang around.. We just getting started!


----------



## Moparmyway

Shadow boxxing jabs dont count Flatie !!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

KG441c said:


> Id use it . It ran my ported saws no problem. The only complaint I had with h1r was the smell



I got ya..that blower saw probably its first 5 tanks of fuel with stihl ultra and after that it was nothin but that belray.


----------



## Moparmyway

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I got ya..that blower saw probably its first 5 tanks of fuel with stihl ultra and after that it was nothin but that belray.


Tonight, I am going to grab a picture of what 5 gallons of 32:1 H1R did to a non-adjustable carb'd moto-bike .................... pitifull !!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Absolutely! The weird & unwonderfull are really interesting sometimes, is there any chance of you timing some cuts at 20:1 & the recommended 50:1 so we can all understand what happens power wise, it could even back up your claims that its going to be better!
> Thansk


What claims? And


Bwildered said:


> Absolutely! The weird & unwonderfull are really interesting sometimes, is there any chance of you timing some cuts at 20:1 & the recommended 50:1 so we can all understand what happens power wise, it could even back up your claims that its going to be better!
> Thansk


I have no reason to believe that my 562 was down on power at 201:1. It ran great. And half azzed unscientific test are a waste of time and money..
Besides I didn't run 20:1 to make more power. I did so to protect the motor under extreme conditions, like ripping these rounds in half.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Moparmyway said:


> Tonight, I am going to grab a picture of what 5 gallons of 32:1 H1R did to a non-adjustable carb'd moto-bike .................... pitifull !!



Cool , i just ran it in my blower never in my saws a whole lot..i probably actually have ran north of 200 tanks of fuel in that blower..between my yard with all our maple trees and our gutters plus the elderly people in my neighborhood with their gutters theres days i put 5 tanks through it..im gonna get a redmax backpack this fall .. that handheld does the job , but i need one with more balls


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Cool , i just ran it in my blower never in my saws a whole lot..i probably actually have ran north of 200 tanks of fuel in that blower..between my yard with all our maple trees and our gutters plus the elderly people in my neighborhood with their gutters theres days i put 5 tanks through it..im gonna get a redmax backpack this fall .. that handheld does the job , but i need one with more balls


H1R may be the worst oils I have ever seen.


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *I wonder how many tree are passed up that only need a 50cc-60cc saws on AS to find trees to justify the BSLB syndrome*


*LOL ‼*
I don't have a BSLB, and I still pass up the small trees for the bigger ones.
Big trees mean more wood, less bark, and you're not constantly movin' the tools and equipment from location to location.
My little 48.7 cc 026 gets it done... with 16 and 20 inch bars.

Oh‼ I forgot, this is an oil thread... 50:1 Stihl orange bottle dino oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I got a free pint of Honda HP2 so I'm gonna run that.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whitespider said:


> *LOL ‼*
> I don't have a BSLB, and I still pass up the small trees for the bigger ones.
> Big trees mean more wood, less bark, and you're not constantly movin' the tools and equipment from location to location.
> My little 48.7 cc 026 gets it done... with 16 and 20 inch bars.
> 
> Oh‼ I forgot, this is an oil thread... 50:1 Stihl orange bottle dino oil.
> 
> View attachment 429394
> View attachment 429395
> View attachment 429396
> View attachment 429397


That saw looks used too....another AS no no[emoji1]


----------



## Moparmyway

That chain is mighty loose WS !!


----------



## Whitespider

KenJax Tree said:


> *That saw looks used too....another AS no no*


 If compressed air won't clean it off... then it don't get cleaned off‼
It's looked "used" ever since the first time I "used" it 



Moparmyway said:


> *That chain is mighty loose WS !!*


Yeah, someone always mentions that.
I was in the process of swapping to the 16 inch bar for cuttin' up the limbs when I decided (as an after thought) to snap a couple of pics for the "Firewood Forum".
I didn't run it loose (even the bar nuts are loose), I just didn't tighten it back up for the photo-op (shrug) I reckon I could'a finished the bar swap first, but I didn't wanna' give the impression I used the 16 inch bar to put those two trees on the ground. On hindsight, considerin' how many times I've explained it, I wish I would'a spent the extra 3 seconds to snug it back up 
*


----------



## Whitespider

Here's a few more "big" ones that little saw has handled.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Whitespider said:


> *LOL ‼*
> I don't have a BSLB, and I still pass up the small trees for the bigger ones.
> Big trees mean more wood, less bark, and you're not constantly movin' the tools and equipment from location to location.
> My little 48.7 cc 026 gets it done... with 16 and 20 inch bars.
> 
> Oh‼ I forgot, this is an oil thread... 50:1 Stihl orange bottle dino oil.
> 
> View attachment 429394
> View attachment 429395
> View attachment 429396
> View attachment 429397



You got it all wrong man...you need a masterminded 660 with a 36" tsumura bar and square chisel chain to cut that stuff..


----------



## Whitespider

SAWMIKAZE said:


> *You got it all wrong man...you need a masterminded 660 with a 36" tsumura bar and square chisel chain to cut that stuff..*


Don't forget the full synthetic, FD certified oil mixed 32:1 
*


----------



## windthrown

What oil do you use in that maul, bwalker?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> What claims? And
> 
> I have no reason to believe that my 562 was down on power at 201:1. It ran great. And half azzed unscientific test are a waste of time and money..
> Besides I didn't run 20:1 to make more power. I did so to protect the motor under extreme conditions, like ripping these rounds in half.View attachment 429374


Did u rip or noodle thoso rounds?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

bwalker said:


> H1R may be the worst oils I have ever seen.



I believe ya man..ive never had anything grenade from the oil ive used and i dont tear my stuff apart after minimal run time just to see what the oil does , thats why i read what you guys say.


----------



## Moparmyway

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I believe ya man..ive never had anything grenade from the oil ive used and i dont tear my stuff apart after minimal run time just to see what the oil does , thats why i read what you guys say.


Haha .............. its funny, but my fat old azz is the reason the bike got torn down. Fatso sat on the bike and rode it. Ripped the upper shock mount right off the crosstube and bent the shock. Sheared the crosstube itself, so no weld failure to report. Had to tear it down to the frame for repairs and thats when I looked in the exhaust port .......................


----------



## SCHallenger

Whitespider said:


> Here's a few more "big" ones that little saw has handled.
> 
> View attachment 429399
> View attachment 429400
> View attachment 429401



Way to go! One good saw that you are familiar & comfortable with trumps a whole arsenal for most of us that are not pros IMO. Nice!


----------



## Trx250r180

Your guy's chains look like grabby round stuff by the cut marks


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> What oil do you use in that maul, bwalker?


Elbow grease..


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Did u rip or noodle thoso rounds?


Noodle.


----------



## KG441c

I dont think noodling is near as hard on the saw as ripping or milling though


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> I dont think noodling is near as hard on the saw as ripping or milling though


It is all in the chain ,smooth is where it's at 

Chain i like for reg cutting is a jerky sob milling for example ,one that is set up for ripping cuts real smooth


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> It is all in the chain ,smooth is where it's at
> 
> Chain i like for reg cutting is a jerky sob milling for example ,one that is set up for ripping cuts real smooth


Whats the best way to sharpen for noodling?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Whats the best way to sharpen for noodling?


With a file


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> Whats the best way to sharpen for noodling?


I have good luck with semi skip or full skip square noodling ,my reg cutting angles work fine and smooth ,reg full comp chain plugs up easier with noodles ,square top plate is 20-25 normally for me ,ripping /milling i like 10 degrees on top plate ,zero side plate ,i tried more aggressive side plate and it started getting jerky milling ,

Edit ,if you are a serious noodler side cover mods are required,you do not want to be standing behind a saw like this if do not want a noodle shower


----------



## mdavlee

I've got a milling video to upload when I remember. I was running 94 vp and K2 with a touch of VP and 800 leftover in the tank.


----------



## Moparmyway

5 gallons of H1R with VP SEF as fuel.
Non-adjustable carb, slight lean bog at throttle tip in ............ never at full throttle long enough to wind it up to full RPM


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I dont think noodling is near as hard on the saw as ripping or milling though


True, but in this case with a 60cc saw and a 24" bar cutting the full length in our dense slow growing hard woods it was loaded pretty hard.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I have good luck with semi skip or full skip square noodling ,my reg cutting angles work fine and smooth ,reg full comp chain plugs up easier with noodles ,square top plate is 20-25 normally for me ,ripping /milling i like 10 degrees on top plate ,zero side plate ,i tried more aggressive side plate and it started getting jerky milling ,
> 
> Edit ,if you are a serious noodler side cover mods are required,you do not want to be standing behind a saw like this if do not want a noodle shower View attachment 429407


Full skip square chisel works great noodling. A big ported saw with lots of torque helps too.


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> 5 gallons of H1R with VP SEF as fuel.
> Non-adjustable carb, slight lean bog at throttle tip in ............ never at full throttle long enough to wind it up to full RPM


What was in it before H1-R?


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I have good luck with semi skip or full skip square noodling ,my reg cutting angles work fine and smooth ,reg full comp chain plugs up easier with noodles ,square top plate is 20-25 normally for me ,ripping /milling i like 10 degrees on top plate ,zero side plate ,i tried more aggressive side plate and it started getting jerky milling ,
> 
> Edit ,if you are a serious noodler side cover mods are required,you do not want to be standing behind a saw like this if do not want a noodle shower View attachment 429407


Does the full skip square stay sharper longer than the semi-skip when noodling?


----------



## gunnusmc03

No, the more cutters you have typically equals the chain stays sharper longer overall. Unless you hit the nasty then you're hosed either way.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> Does the full skip square stay sharper longer than the semi-skip when noodling?


I would think so ,only noodling i do is cutting the flare off the butt of a log so it fits the mill ,i know full comp plugs up more than a skip would in softwoods 



gunnusmc03 said:


> No, the more cutters you have typically equals the chain stays sharper longer overall. Unless you hit the nasty then you're hosed either way.


sounds logical ,more cutters doing work should dull less then less would think


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Your guy's chains look like grabby round stuff by the cut marks


I don't know a single person using square for anything other than racing.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I don't know a single person using square for anything other than racing.


Around here it is pretty common ,i use it for everything but milling ,one of the tricks to making the 32 inch bar work better on a 440 stihl ,we do not cut oak and such hard stuff though .I have tried to go back to round a few times ,the round is just too grabby after running the square .


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I don't know a single person using square for anything other than racing.


Square has been faster for me and seems to stay sharper longer than round.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I don't know a single person using square for anything other than racing.




Square sharpening requires a few more of these to finish compared to round sharpening.


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> Square has been faster for me and seems to stay sharper longer than round.



I think it depends on what your cutting.

for me it seems (new) RSLF dulls in about 1-1.5 tanks. (new) RS dulls in about 3-4 tanks. On the 661. But I'm cutting mostly hard wood. I think the more blunt edge of the Stihl Square Ground ie. at 20 degrees is part of the problem.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 429460
> 
> Square sharpening requires a few more of these to finish compared to round sharpening.


Touch up should be 5 min or so for a 91-105 dl ,double that if nick some dirt


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> What claims? And
> 
> I have no reason to believe that my 562 was down on power at 201:1. It ran great. And half azzed unscientific test are a waste of time and money..
> Besides I didn't run 20:1 to make more power. I did so to protect the motor under extreme conditions, like ripping these rounds in half.View attachment 429374


Ha ha, those half arsed timed tests are what are used every day in motor sport right up to the most sophisticated formula one category & nothing beats real world testing, I'm too lazy or not that interested chase a red herring to go back over the many pages to regurgitate what you have claimed a few times, I wanted to see if it made more power not less & I am interested in seeing if a ridiculously rich oil mixture does anything at all other than give someone emphysema before their time is truly up. I find it funny that you think ripping a couple of rounds is extreme in mild temperatures. Here are a couple of pics of some mild ripping which I was doing last week, 50:1 castrol TTS & not a problem, nor for the thousands of posts before that I have done with that saw.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Ha ha, those half arsed timed tests are what are used every day in motor sport right up to the most sophisticated formula one category & nothing beats real world testing, I'm too lazy or not that interested chase a red herring to go back over the many pages to regurgitate what you have claimed a few times, I wanted to see if it made more power not less & I am interested in seeing if a ridiculously rich oil mixture does anything at all other than give someone emphysema before their time is truly up. I find it funny that you think ripping a couple of rounds is extreme in mild temperatures. Here are a couple of pics of some mild ripping which I was doing last week, 50:1 castrol TTS & not a problem, nor for the thousands of posts before that I have done with that saw.
> Thansk


Ripped alot more than that..
As for ridiculously rich. You might educate yourself what's used in motor sports other than chain saws. Karts routinely run 16:1 as do road race bikes. My mx bikes mfg reccomends a 30:1 ratio, which is common..
Data is only good if it's of quality and making himan timed cuts in a variable substance in varying conditions is a variable crap shoot.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I think it depends on what your cutting.


I fooled around with a loop of square a member sent me years ago. It cut ok in sugar maple, but wasn't a ton faster than my hand filed round. I found it a ***** to touch up using a goofy file and by the time I had sharpened it a half dozen times it was cutting slower than my round.
I am sure it's great stuff, but I don't have the need, nor desire to fart around with it. I also have never seen it used in the woods logging up here.


----------



## mdavlee

Saw was ran with 800 and topped off with the VP 94 and K2. It didn't blow up with the 2 oils mixed a little.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Ripped alot more than that..
> As for ridiculously rich. You might educate yourself what's used in motor sports other than chain saws. Karts routinely run 16:1 as do road race bikes. My mx bikes mfg reccomends a 30:1 ratio, which is common..
> Data is only good if it's of quality and making himan timed cuts in a variable substance in varying conditions is a variable crap shoot.


What has that irrelevant rubbish got to do with running 20:1 in a saw designed for 50:1, it's no wonder you can't do a basic test, you seem to think you know more than formula 1 race teams. LOL
Thansk


----------



## porsche965

mdavlee said:


> Saw was ran with 800 and topped off with the VP 94 and K2. It didn't blow up with the 2 oils mixed a little.




Sounds perfectly fine to me chugging along in the mid 9000 rpm range. Close with my guess Mike? 

Actually milling like this at lower rpms probably isn't as hard on a saw as running in the 11-12,500 range as a lot of ported saws do. Not saying by not knowing what you have done to your saw just saying. Yours sounds like a "diesel" under load and mine sound a lot higher rpms. 

Nice work milling, that sure looks like a lot of work managing those big logs around!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> What has that irrelevant rubbish got to do with running 20:1 in a saw designed for 50:1, it's no wonder you can't do a basic test, you seem to think you know more than formula 1 race teams. LOL
> Thansk


Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's rubbish.
Saw design, as in cylinder coatings, ring and piston designs and materials havent really changed since the days when 32:1 or less was recomended by the saw OEM'S. So, it's rubbish saying today's saws are designed for a certain ratio..
THe fact is ratios requirements are set by load and rpm. 50:1 came into vogue as a way to limit smoke emissions while still using realativley poor quality oils.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Sounds perfectly fine to me chugging along in the mid 9000 rpm range. Close with my guess Mike?
> 
> Actually milling like this at lower rpms probably isn't as hard on a saw as running in the 11-12,500 range as a lot of ported saws do. Not saying by not knowing what you have done to your saw just saying. Yours sounds like a "diesel" under load and mine sound a lot higher rpms.
> 
> Nice work milling, that sure looks like a lot of work managing those big logs around!


High rpm is always harder on lubrication as it pertains to a two stroke as migration time becomes less and less. The heat of high load stresses the oil further. Given how a two cycle is lubricated I think running under 32:1 is a smart move when milling.


----------



## porsche965

Ok, here is a question: Does the higher Viscosity Number of an oil have any relative effect on oil migration? Meaning does oil migrate faster or slower the lighter or heavier the weight of the oil is in a two stroke pre-mix application?


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Sounds perfectly fine to me chugging along in the mid 9000 rpm range. Close with my guess Mike?
> 
> Actually milling like this at lower rpms probably isn't as hard on a saw as running in the 11-12,500 range as a lot of ported saws do. Not saying by not knowing what you have done to your saw just saying. Yours sounds like a "diesel" under load and mine sound a lot higher rpms.
> 
> Nice work milling, that sure looks like a lot of work managing those big logs around!



It's 9500 or so for the most part. The chain was a full skip square ground from slinger. The saw has finger ports on a D shaped cylinder with no machine work. I've been lazy and not pulled it down to cut it any. 

The longer cut times is the harder part. Those were short for most of the cuts. I got all 4 sides on one tank. It was almost dry when I picked it up to take the mill off. I wish I had video of the cherry that took 2 tanks per cut in with the 390.

I set that one up by hand. I use a 2.5 ton floor jack a lot of the time to set them up on a slope like that. If I get the chain just right the weight of the saw will feed it in and all I have to do is hold the trigger.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Ok, here is a question: Does the higher Viscosity Number of an oil have any relative effect on oil migration? Meaning does oil migrate faster or slower the lighter or heavier the weight of the oil is in a two stroke pre-mix application?


Not sure on that. The migration study I saw wasn't a comparison.
At face value I would say viscosity has minimal to no effect, but that's just a gut guess.


----------



## mdavlee

Plug out of the 046. Been in there since I rebuilt it 1.5 years ago.


----------



## whitedogone

mdavlee said:


> Plug out of the 046. Been in there since I rebuilt it 1.5 years ago.
> 
> View attachment 429502


 
Where did you get a hand model?


----------



## Miles86

Hey-

Notice that every factory oil for saws is sae 20 wt. (aka "injector" oil). I think this is due to the carburetor setup at the factory. A heavy oil like k2 or 800T (sae 40wt) might cause a need to slightly richen the tuning to compensate for the change in specific gravity (density) of the fuel mix? It probably wouldn't be noticed.
http://www.racegas.com/article/26
https://www.motul.com/system/produc...Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420010
http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/d5e66496-3079-4374-82c2-ad427eb044e2
http://www.maxima.co.jp/images/msds/2stroke/FormulaK2.pdf

Motul oil has higher specific gravity than typical factory oil (echo) and also higher than K2.
Factory must feel the lighter oil is adequate (for warranty at least)?


----------



## windthrown

KG441c said:


> I dont think noodling is near as hard on the saw as ripping or milling though



That is correct. Noodling is the easiest way to cut wood with a chainsaw. The next easiest is cross cutting (what they are designed for). The hardest way to cut wood is ripping (chainsaw milling).


----------



## windthrown

Ack Ack!


----------



## windthrown

Also round filed full chisel loops will usually stay sharp longer than square filed. That is because there is more steel behind a round filed point than square filed. I also have found that semi-chisel round filed will stay sharp longer than full chisel round filed. That is because there is no sharp tip on semi-chisel to dull like full chisel. Some chains will vary though and this is not always the case.

Also full skip is good for noodling because it keeps the revs higher and there is more space between the cutters for the long noodles. But we are off topic here! This is supposed to be an OIL THREAD!



Ack Ack Ack Ack!


----------



## _RJ_

You guys are going to freak when you learn about bandsaw mills...


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's rubbish.
> Saw design, as in cylinder coatings, ring and piston designs and materials havent really changed since the days when 32:1 or less was recomended by the saw OEM'S. So, it's rubbish saying today's saws are designed for a certain ratio..
> THe fact is ratios requirements are set by load and rpm. 50:1 came into vogue as a way to limit smoke emissions while still using realativley poor quality oils.


It is a free world so you can waste your oil & money anyway you like, but preaching about it without even testing anything then quoting irrelevant material is the impossible thing to swallow, tests have been done verified by witnesses & since then it's been a waffle fest about anything & everything but some simple testing, I don't know where you have been hiding but modern 2 stroke race bikes can run at 60:1 recommended by the manufacturer, maybe it's a time warp thing not to notice! LOL
Thansk


----------



## windthrown

_RJ_ said:


> You guys are going to freak when you learn about bandsaw mills...



I know about them. My neighbor in Southern Oregon had one. Made board stock by the thousands of board feet. I used to see logging trucks go the wrong way up through our easement and another mile up to his property. He got logs by the truckload for milling. One time he had a huge 6 foot DBH Ponderosa pine delivered, and he sliced that thing up like it was pasta.


----------



## _RJ_

windthrown said:


> I know about them. My neighbor in Southern Oregon had one. Made board stock by the thousands of board feet. I used to see logging trucks go the wrong way up through our easement and another mile up to his property. He got logs by the truckload for milling. One time he had a huge 6 foot DBH Ponderosa pine delivered, and he sliced that thing up like it was pasta.


That's my point. Chainsaw milling has its place. Exclusively using a chainsaw to mill and argue ratios with people that are using their saw differently isn't going to get us anywhere. 

I'm not just replying to you, but rather to anyone who reads this. Different regions, methods, objectives and etc... dictate what ratios we should run. 

I do like the testing of the different mix brands. I will say I have learned some stuff from those conversations. I think it's too easy and too often we find what works and just stick with that without exploring other options. Kind of like sticking with one brand of beer or whiskey and never seeing what else is out there.


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> 5 gallons of H1R with VP SEF as fuel.
> Non-adjustable carb, slight lean bog at throttle tip in ............ never at full throttle long enough to wind it up to full RPM





blsnelling said:


> What was in it before H1-R?



Absolutely nothing ........... it was brand new, and run exclusively on VP SEF with H1R @ 32:1 for 5 gallons.

I purchased the 5 gallon container and put in 20oz of H1R ............. then only used that fuel for this motor. This motor saw nothing else and this piston looks like this. The discolored skirt has very fine scratches in it, and have a good look at the exhaust port.

This bike runs lean with 32:1 H1R, yet shows no carbon on the piston top and no build up in the exhaust port.
The last thing I want to point out is that the exhaust port has a small little window at the top center of the port. It allows some exhaust to exit prior to the whole port being opened. What advantage does this offer, besides inducing a "pre-flow" into the exhaust port, and why would this be beneficial ?


----------



## smokey7

What is the opinion of the pit bike top end. Just my opinion but i think that looks terrible. Is that varnish just below the rings? To me for only 5 gallons with such "premium products" i would look for better. That bike should still look new for the low load its getting. Maybe h1r is not suitable for the application. What does everyone else think?


----------



## Andyshine77

Moparmyway said:


> Absolutely nothing ........... it was brand new, and run exclusively on VP SEF with H1R @ 32:1 for 5 gallons.
> The last thing I want to point out is that the exhaust port has a small little window at the top center of the port. It allows some exhaust to exit prior to the whole port being opened. What advantage does this offer, besides inducing a "pre-flow" into the exhaust port, and why would this be beneficial ?



It's a way to reduce compression during starting I believe.


----------



## mdavlee

That bike piston looks like crap. Super burns about like that if it's not run hot enough to burn clean.


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> Super burns about like that if it's not run hot enough to burn clean.


Evidently, so does H1R


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I fooled around with a loop of square a member sent me years ago. It cut ok in sugar maple, but wasn't a ton faster than my hand filed round. I found it a ***** to touch up using a goofy file and by the time I had sharpened it a half dozen times it was cutting slower than my round.
> I am sure it's great stuff, but I don't have the need, nor desire to fart around with it. I also have never seen it used in the woods logging up here.


I gave up on it after my first attempts also ,then i got a grinder ........ after i found some angles i liked ,it made filing easier once i understood the cutters more ,am still learning new stuff after a few years of doing square now ,i find the 6 sided file to do a good job ,holding the file right while cutting takes a while to master ,once you do a touch up is as fast as doing round ,when cutting with square it takes a lot of the load off your saw vs round ,the off the roll stuff is ok ,but it can be made better 



mdavlee said:


> Saw was ran with 800 and topped off with the VP 94 and K2. It didn't blow up with the 2 oils mixed a little.




Have you tried .404 milling yet ?


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> I gave up on it after my first attempts also ,then i got a grinder ........ after i found some angles i liked ,it made filing easier once i understood the cutters more ,am still learning new stuff after a few years of doing square now ,i find the 6 sided file to do a good job ,holding the file right while cutting takes a while to master ,once you do a touch up is as fast as doing round ,when cutting with square it takes a lot of the load off your saw vs round ,the off the roll stuff is ok ,but it can be made better
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried .404 milling yet ?


On the 084 and 088 I used it. I haven't tried on the shorter bars.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> ,i find the 6 sided file to do a good job ,holding the file right while cutting takes a while to master



I have had good results with them 6 sided files (3 corner) on .404 and .375 ...................... they wont work on LoPro or .325


----------



## Ron660

I also use the 6-sided files - Vallorbe brand. I've got a triangle one but haven't used it.


----------



## Ron660

This model is similar to the Vallorbe.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> On the 084 and 088 I used it. I haven't tried on the shorter bars.


I have tried a few variations of the .404 ,dry fir is picky on chain for being grabby so that was my test wood ,normal square like i cut with was fast but jerky ,round at 10 degrees top plate ,20 side plate on the usg grinder (aggressive sideplate ) still grabby and tearing fibers too much ,10 degree top plate ,base slide /side plate set to zero was real smooth but slower ,gave the nicest finish also ,but the .404 seems faster than the 3/8 ,i think the wider kerf moves more material faster ,bigger dust chips are on the ground also ,on the alaska mill i do not get the jerkyness like i do with the norwood also with the powerhead set up high in the air ,so a more aggressive chain can be used on the alaska mill ,if look in the image it is up in the air on the square tube ,so a grabby chain makes the tube bounce and flex ,down low it is not as bad on the flex


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> I also use the 6-sided files - Vallorbe brand. I've got a triangle one but haven't used it.





Ron660 said:


> View attachment 429569
> 
> This model is similar to the Vallorbe.



Those double bevel files (pictured in your post) are the most easy to use and produce the best finish on all sizes of chain, they are my favorite square file.


----------



## big t double

Trx250r180 said:


> I have tried a few variations of the .404 ,dry fir is picky on chain for being grabby so that was my test wood ,normal square like i cut with was fast but jerky ,round at 10 degrees top plate ,20 side plate on the usg grinder (aggressive sideplate ) still grabby and tearing fibers too much ,10 degree top plate ,base slide /side plate set to zero was real smooth but slower ,gave the nicest finish also ,but the .404 seems faster than the 3/8 ,i think the wider kerf moves more material faster ,bigger dust chips are on the ground also ,on the alaska mill i do not get the jerkyness like i do with the norwood also with the powerhead set up high in the air ,so a more aggressive chain can be used on the alaska mill ,if look in the image it is up in the air on the square tube ,so a grabby chain makes the tube bounce and flex ,down low it is not as bad on the flex View attachment 429570


that's a cool looking set up...im going to ask what im sure is a very stupid question...but what do you do with those big planks of wood. im sure theres a market for them but all I can imagine is like a fire place mantel. yes im stupid...sorry...I sell *** parts for a living, but this milling stuff is cool business to me.


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> That is correct. Noodling is the easiest way to cut wood with a chainsaw. The next easiest is cross cutting (what they are designed for). The hardest way to cut wood is ripping (chainsaw milling).


Noodling is much tougher than crosas cutting IMO and IME


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> It is a free world so you can waste your oil & money anyway you like, but preaching about it without even testing anything then quoting irrelevant material is the impossible thing to swallow, tests have been done verified by witnesses & since then it's been a waffle fest about anything & everything but some simple testing, I don't know where you have been hiding but modern 2 stroke race bikes can run at 60:1 recommended by the manufacturer, maybe it's a time warp thing not to notice! LOL
> Thansk


One oem reccomends that ratio...KTM.
Like I said before, just because you can't wrap your mind around it doesn't meet its rubbish.
And I don't feel the need to prove anything to you.. get of your azz and do some research and you will find I am right.


----------



## Hedgerow

windthrown said:


> I know about them. My neighbor in Southern Oregon had one. Made board stock by the thousands of board feet. I used to see logging trucks go the wrong way up through our easement and another mile up to his property. He got logs by the truckload for milling. One time he had a huge 6 foot DBH Ponderosa pine delivered, and he sliced that thing up like it was pasta.


Good Lord, how wide was his band mill??!!


----------



## Trx250r180

big t double said:


> that's a cool looking set up...im going to ask what im sure is a very stupid question...but what do you do with those big planks of wood. im sure theres a market for them but all I can imagine is like a fire place mantel. yes im stupid...sorry...I sell *** parts for a living, but this milling stuff is cool business to me.


if you look at the top of the square post ,there is a handle to raise and lower the powerhead on a threaded rod ,i will make the first pass to remove the bark chunk ,that will be firewood ,then i lower it 1.5 inches at a time to make 2x6 boards ,i can stack 2 or 3 slabs side by side also and cut several boards at a time ,but it seems to waste more wood doing that on the first couple cuts 
this may help on hoe i cut the log up ,

first cut ,cut some slabs like this to make boards ,make as many slabs as can get from the log ,my first 3-4 passes above this one i make either 3/4 ,1 inch or 1.5 inches thick depending what i need , then when i get down to where i can make cants i go 5.5 inches ,i got 2 - 5.5 inch slabs from this log ,then i stand them up and make the 1.5 inch or 5.5 for 6x6's passes and end up with finished boards


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I oem reccomends that ratio...KTM.
> like I said before, just because you can't wrap your mind around it doesn't meet its rubbish.


When i got my KTM 250SX last year that told me to use this





I use 40:1


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It's a way to reduce compression during starting I believe.


That woukd be correct. The Honda CR-500 actually has two of these relief ports to facilitate starting. First thing I do when building a CR500 motor is to have cylinder bored till the relief ports are no more. Then I have the bore Nikisiled over the factory steel sleeve and then have it final honed and sized to a Wiseco forged piston. Add a Gorr GP porting job, a 39mm PwK and a fatty pipe and your knocking on the door of 70hp with monster torque.


----------



## Trx250r180

found a pic of what i turned those boards into ,was small porch off side entry to the house 


made some 6x12's for the roof support also on that mill ,one on right is 16 feet long ,all free lumber off trees from the property .


----------



## bwalker

Miles86 said:


> Hey-
> 
> Notice that every factory oil for saws is sae 20 wt. (aka "injector" oil). I think this is due to the carburetor setup at the factory. A heavy oil like k2 or 800T (sae 40wt) might cause a need to slightly richen the tuning to compensate for the change in specific gravity (density) of the fuel mix? It probably wouldn't be noticed.
> http://www.racegas.com/article/26
> https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77794/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420010
> http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/d5e66496-3079-4374-82c2-ad427eb044e2
> http://www.maxima.co.jp/images/msds/2stroke/FormulaK2.pdf
> 
> Motul oil has higher specific gravity than typical factory oil (echo) and also higher than K2.
> Factory must feel the lighter oil is adequate (for warranty at least)?


K2 has required no carb tuning changes vs other oils I have ran over several pieces of equipment.
The trend toward lower viscosity oils is driven by the use of PIB and the desire to limit smoke and deposits.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> Noodling is much tougher than crosas cutting IMO and IME



You must be kidding, right? I have noodled hundreds of rounds... no way it is harder than cross cutting. No way!


----------



## redbull660

661 with .404 Stihl RSLF (sq. grd. full skip) is the cat's meow when it comes to noodling. IMHO of course.

clears the long fibers no problem and the .404 stays sharp for what seems like forever.


----------



## windthrown

Hedgerow said:


> Good Lord, how wide was his band mill??!!



It was a big one. Far bigger than the one that we had which was 6 ft high and 2 or 3 feet wide? I never did any band saw milling using that thing, as I did not have the tracks/rails needed to do that. He had rails 30 feet long. He also wanted an even bigger bandsaw mill, but his wife was balking at the space that the rig took up. It took up the entire north side of their house. His goal was to have board stock of every kind of local wood. He had a wood storage bay that was half of a barn, with racks and racks of wood. The guy was a milling machine. He was a retired developer from California and had lots of time to play with his toys.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I have tried a few variations of the .404 ,dry fir is picky on chain for being grabby so that was my test wood ,normal square like i cut with was fast but jerky ,round at 10 degrees top plate ,20 side plate on the usg grinder (aggressive sideplate ) still grabby and tearing fibers too much ,10 degree top plate ,base slide /side plate set to zero was real smooth but slower ,gave the nicest finish also ,but the .404 seems faster than the 3/8 ,i think the wider kerf moves more material faster ,bigger dust chips are on the ground also ,on the alaska mill i do not get the jerkyness like i do with the norwood also with the powerhead set up high in the air ,so a more aggressive chain can be used on the alaska mill ,if look in the image it is up in the air on the square tube ,so a grabby chain makes the tube bounce and flex ,down low it is not as bad on the flex View attachment 429570


 Did Randy use different porting numbers on your 660 since it's used for milling?


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> You must be kidding, right? I have noodled hundreds of rounds... no way it is harder than cross cutting. No way!


In our hardwoods noodling takes probaly twice as long.
I have cut Douglas Fir in MT and it cuts like butter, about like our Popple,however never noodled it.


----------



## Hedgerow

Trx250r180 said:


> found a pic of what i turned those boards into ,was small porch off side entry to the house
> View attachment 429598
> 
> made some 6x12's for the roof support also on that mill ,one on right is 16 feet long ,all free lumber off trees from the property .
> View attachment 429599


That's impressive stuff right there Brian..




Makes our chainsaw art look crude..
This was a 27" slab of American Elm.


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> In our hardwoods noodling take probaly twice as long.






Hard wood...


----------



## HuskStihl

Hedgerow said:


> That's impressive stuff right there Brian..
> 
> View attachment 429614
> 
> 
> Makes our chainsaw art look crude..
> This was a 27" slab of American Elm.


Man! What kinda top angle did you have on that chain to make the wood come out so smooth and shiny?!


----------



## windthrown

bwalker said:


> In our hardwoods noodling takes probaly twice as long.
> I have cut Douglas Fir in MT and it cuts like butter, about like our Popple,however never noodled it.



*Your* hardwoods? Sorry bub, but you do not have the monopoly on hardwoods. You people always think every tree out here is a conifer, but they are not. FYI, hardwoods here in the far west include most all the eastern, Eurasian and some Australian hardwoods as well as the native hardwood species here. I regularly cut white oak, black oak, maple, madrone, chinkapin, black locust, eucalyptus, cherry, alder, etc. etc. Poplar (depending on if it is real poplar, or yellow poplar which is actually a magnolia) and cottonwood are actually pure hell on chainsaws. We have a shyteload of cottonwood here and I do not cut it any more. Too hard on saws, too light a firewood, and its stinks when burned. Also FYI, Doug firs that grow in this vicinity west of the Cascades are denser, stronger and harder than those grown in other areas. For that reason they command a premium here at the mills in this area.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> Did Randy use different porting numbers on your 660 since it's used for milling?


I believe he said he did something different on this one for the milling ,is a ***** to start sideways on the mill with the high compresion ,i use the decomp often on this one .



Hedgerow said:


> That's impressive stuff right there Brian..
> 
> View attachment 429614
> 
> 
> Makes our chainsaw art look crude..
> This was a 27" slab of American Elm.



That is very nice ,i am going to make a picnic table out of 2 slabs side by side like that ,live edge ,will give the 41 inch cannon a workout


----------



## HuskStihl

Trx250r180 said:


> I believe he said he did something different on this one for the milling ,is a ***** to start sideways on the mill with the high compresion *,i use the decomp often on this one* .


***** (another way to call a cat a kitty)


----------



## Hedgerow

HuskStihl said:


> Man! What kinda top angle did you have on that chain to make the wood come out so smooth and shiny?!


45 to the left and 45 to the right..
Apply as many times as needed to make slab shiny...
Usually about a pint or two..
LOL....


----------



## KenJax Tree

Wait an hour or so in between cuts....errr coats


----------



## HuskStihl

must be using linseed oil for bar oil. Beautiful finish


----------



## Hedgerow

Trx250r180 said:


> I believe he said he did something different on this one for the milling ,is a ***** to start sideways on the mill with the high compresion ,i use the decomp often on this one .
> 
> 
> 
> That is very nice ,i am going to make a picnic table out of 2 slabs side by side like that ,live edge ,will give the 41 inch cannon a workout


Wanna borrow a 72" cannon for that project?? 



The big Burr Oak was hollow!!!


----------



## Trx250r180

Hedgerow said:


> Wanna borrow a 72" cannon for that project??
> View attachment 429623
> 
> 
> The big Burr Oak was hollow!!!


i dont have any trees left on the property that wide ,just stumps  widest i have to work with maybe 4 ft wide i think ,only have a 36 inch mill too  i seam down the middle will be ok


----------



## mdavlee

Hedgerow said:


> Wanna borrow a 72" cannon for that project??
> View attachment 429623
> 
> 
> The big Burr Oak was hollow!!!


Baby bar[emoji33]


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> Baby bar[emoji33]


I told Adam I'd send him a pic of the slabs we milled with it, just to find out the damn tree was riddled with various blemishes.. 
Looked great on the outside though!
So were the 2- 40" Red Cedars...

Our trees suck...


----------



## huskihl

Hedgerow said:


> Good Lord, how wide was his band mill??!!


Don't say that. '08 will be fillin' this thread with snackies too


----------



## Trx250r180

Hedgerow said:


> I told Adam I'd send him a pic of the slabs we milled with it, just to find out the damn tree was riddled with various blemishes..
> Looked great on the outside though!
> So were the 2- 40" Red Cedars...
> 
> Our trees suck...


Most of the big cedar buts are rotted here too ........makes em easier to split


----------



## Andyshine77

windthrown said:


> *Your* hardwoods? Sorry bub, but you do not have the monopoly on hardwoods. You people always think every tree out here is a conifer, but they are not. FYI, hardwoods here in the far west include most all the eastern, Eurasian and some Australian hardwoods as well as the native hardwood species here. I regularly cut white oak, black oak, maple, madrone, chinkapin, black locust, eucalyptus, cherry, alder, etc. etc. Poplar (depending on if it is real poplar, or yellow poplar which is actually a magnolia) and cottonwood are actually pure hell on chainsaws. We have a shyteload of cottonwood here and I do not cut it any more. Too hard on saws, too light a firewood, and its stinks when burned. Also FYI, Doug firs that grow in this vicinity west of the Cascades are denser, stronger and harder than those grown in other areas. For that reason they command a premium here at the mills in this area.



How are Cottonwoods hard on chainsaws? It cuts like pulp. Now I don't care to burn it, as it burns like paper, the same can be said about pretty much all poplar spices. Black Locusts is pretty dense, but the rest of the spices you mentioned cut fairly easily. Sorry it really sounds like you haven't cut much wood that is actually hard. 

Remember we don't have the rain or the soil you do, our trees generally grow much slower.

Here's a picture of a Magnolia we have, this is about as far north as I know them to grow.


----------



## Hedgerow

Andyshine77 said:


> How are Cottonwoods hard on chainsaws? It cuts like pulp. Now I don't care to burn it, as it burns like paper, the same can be said about pretty much all poplar spices. Black Locusts is pretty dense, but the rest of the spices you mentioned cut fairly easily. Sorry it really sounds like you haven't cut much wood that is actually hard.
> 
> Remember we don't have the rain or the soil you do, our trees generally grow much slower.
> 
> Here's a picture of a Magnolia we have, this is about as far north as I know them to grow.


Are you sayin' ole windthrown has "soft wood"??


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> *Your* hardwoods? Sorry bub, but you do not have the monopoly on hardwoods. You people always think every tree out here is a conifer, but they are not. FYI, hardwoods here in the far west include most all the eastern, Eurasian and some Australian hardwoods as well as the native hardwood species here. I regularly cut white oak, black oak, maple, madrone, chinkapin, black locust, eucalyptus, cherry, alder, etc. etc. Poplar (depending on if it is real poplar, or yellow poplar which is actually a magnolia) and cottonwood are actually pure hell on chainsaws. We have a shyteload of cottonwood here and I do not cut it any more. Too hard on saws, too light a firewood, and its stinks when burned. Also FYI, Doug firs that grow in this vicinity west of the Cascades are denser, stronger and harder than those grown in other areas. For that reason they command a premium here at the mills in this area.


Your growing season is likely twice as long, which effects density..as does the fact we have poor, thin soils in the county I live in. A week ago we had frost and it hasn't cracked 80 till today.. if you go three hours south to Green Bay, WI, the trees will have leaves when we still have snow on the ground.. get the picture?


----------



## bwalker

And even dry side, old growth Doug fir is pretty damn soft. About on part with our Aspen/Popple.


----------



## MustangMike

Big Oak & Hard Maple can be pretty tough to cut, especially if the trees are big, but I think Shag Bark Hickory slows my saw down more than anything else.

Also, when they (Oak, Maple, etc) are dead & dry they are much tougher than when they are green.

I think the Oak & Maple logs they had at the upstate GTG this Spring were tougher to cut than the Black Locust they had last year, and I was not the only one to notice it.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> One oem reccomends that ratio...KTM.
> Like I said before, just because you can't wrap your mind around it doesn't meet its rubbish.
> And I don't feel the need to prove anything to you.. get of your azz and do some research and you will find I am right.


So what your really implying is that world leading manufacturers like KTM, stihl, husky etc don't know what they are doing by specifying leaner oil ratios which are tried & tested every day by millions apon millions of people in every situation without premature failure & somehow you know better & your right. That's a good one! There should be a joke section for stuff like that to go in. LOL
Thansk


----------



## Hedgerow

MustangMike said:


> Big Oak & Hard Maple can be pretty tough to cut, especially if the trees are big, but I think Shag Bark Hickory slows my saw down more than anything else.
> 
> Also, when they (Oak, Maple, etc) are dead & dry they are much tougher than when they are green.
> 
> I think the Oak & Maple logs they had at the upstate GTG this Spring were tougher to cut than the Black Locust they had last year, and I was not the only one to notice it.


Growing conditions are a big factor Mike...
Take this one, for instance...



It led a tough life...
Lotsa wind and dry growing seasons, mixed in with a heavy top..
If someone can count those rings, you'll see how old it was..


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> So what your really implying is that world leading manufacturers like KTM, stihl, husky etc don't know what they are doing by specifying leaner oil ratios which are tried & tested every day by millions apon millions of people in every situation without premature failure & somehow you know better & your right. That's a good one! There should be a joke section for stuff like that to go in. LOL
> Thansk


I didn't say that at all..
The only one belonging in the joke section is you!
FYI KTM only reccomends 60:1 for 250 and 300cc bikes. All the rest of their bikes are 40:1 or less.
Everyone I know runs there ktms richer than 60:1 and these are Enduro guys!


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Big Oak & Hard Maple can be pretty tough to cut, especially if the trees are big, but I think Shag Bark Hickory slows my saw down more than anything else.
> 
> Also, when they (Oak, Maple, etc) are dead & dry they are much tougher than when they are green.
> 
> I think the Oak & Maple logs they had at the upstate GTG this Spring were tougher to cut than the Black Locust they had last year, and I was not the only one to notice it.


Oak and maple grown north of the 45 parallel and preferably in a lake effects t snow zone are harder than hickory, locust and the like. Hedge/Osage orange might be harder, but I can't say because I never cut it.
The wood where I grew up in southern MI is night and day different to the stuff we have up here.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I didn't say that at all..
> The only one belonging in the joke section is you!
> FYI KTM only reccomends 60:1 for 250 and 300cc bikes. All the rest of their bikes are 40:1 or less.
> Everyone I know runs there ktms richer than 60:1 and these are Enduro guys!


Your circle of "everyone" may indeed have an oil & money wasting fetish, but they are a very tiny minority of the population percentage, you seem to understand oil immeasurably, English, not so much when you confuse "implying" with "say"
Thanks


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Your circle of "everybody"may indeed have an oil & money wasting fetish, but they are a very tiny minority of the population percentage, you seem to understand oil immeasurably, English, not so much when you confuse "implying" with "say"
> Thanks


I didn't confuse anything...hint.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I didn't confuse anything...hint.


Self praise is in no way a recommendation.LOL


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Self praise is in no way a recommendation.LOL


Either is self loathing.


----------



## huskihl

Ironwood. I don't care where it grows. That ***** hard


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> Ironwood. I don't care where it grows. That ***** hard


True, but it rarely gets above 3-4'' up here.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Oak and maple grown north of the 45 parallel and preferably in a lake effects t snow zone are harder than hickory, locust and the like. Hedge/Osage orange might be harder, but I can't say because I never cut it.
> The wood where I grew up in southern MI is night and day different to the stuff we have up here.



It's real tough, but if you cut it green it's not reall any worse than Shag Hickory, Honey Locust and a few others IMHO. It does put out more heat than anything I've ever burned.


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> True, but it rarely gets above 3-4'' up here.


Yea. 6-12" here. Occasionally 16". Too bad. Best firewood there is here. Sparks fly off the chain every time you cut it


----------



## Ron660

Hedgerow said:


> Wanna borrow a 72" cannon for that project??
> View attachment 429623
> 
> 
> The big Burr Oak was hollow!!!


How much does that rig weigh? That would be a workout.


----------



## Hedgerow

huskihl said:


> Ironwood. I don't care where it grows. That ***** hard


Yup..
Eastern HopHornbeam..
Rarely exceeds 10" dba, but tough stuff.. Add 10% density to that and you got Baux D' Arc...
"Hedge"
Too bad it's rare to find any worth milling.. 
That being said, it's all wood, and steel cuts it all just fine... LOL...


----------



## Hedgerow

Ron660 said:


> How much does that rig weigh? That would be a workout.


That bar sags like a limp wiener...
It's rediculous...


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Either is self loathing.


You can project all you like, but how about projecting something relevant to this day & age. Unlike your outdated ideas, something's have changed, otherwise manufacturers would be still recommending 25:1 oil ratios.
Thansk


----------



## Whitespider

Hedgerow said:


> *Wanna borrow a 72" cannon for that project??*


My... you have a big one... limp or not 



Hedgerow said:


> *Our trees suck...*


I don't have firsthand knowledge of your trees... but, from what I've seen in my travels, your poison ivy and alligator snappers are about as nasty as they come.

(I'm refusing to talk about oil until page 301)
*


----------



## blsnelling

Bwildered said:


> ....something's have changed, otherwise manufacturers would be still recommending 25:1 oil ratios.
> Thansk


Most importantly, oil quality.


----------



## Ron660

Hedgerow said:


> Yup..
> Eastern HopHornbeam..
> Rarely exceeds 10" dba, but tough stuff.. Add 10% density to that and you got Baux D' Arc...
> "Hedge"
> Too bad it's rare to find any worth milling..
> That being said, it's all wood, and steel cuts it all just fine... LOL...


 We have a lot of those "Bois Da Arc" or Osage Orange trees. The Indians used the wood to make Bow & Arrows. The locals call them Horse Apple trees.


----------



## Ron660

Hedgerow said:


> Yup..
> Eastern HopHornbeam..
> Rarely exceeds 10" dba, but tough stuff.. Add 10% density to that and you got Baux D' Arc...
> "Hedge"
> Too bad it's rare to find any worth milling..
> That being said, it's all wood, and steel cuts it all just fine... LOL...


 Do you have any Hercules Club trees in MO?


----------



## Hedgerow

Ron660 said:


> Do you have any Hercules Club trees in MO?


Got a scientific name for that one?

OK. Found it..
Prickly Ash..
Nope, don't got those here...


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Most importantly, oil quality.


Oil quality really hasn't changed much at all since the 90's..


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> You can project all you like, but how about projecting something relevant to this day & age. Unlike your outdated ideas, something's have changed, otherwise manufacturers would be still recommending 25:1 oil ratios.
> Thansk


Discounting the past with ignorance of the present and how we got there is the height of stupidity.


----------



## Hedgerow

bwalker said:


> Oil quality really hasn't changed much at all since the 90's..


But marketing has progressed nicely... 
LOL...


----------



## bwalker

Hedgerow said:


> But marketing has progressed nicely...
> LOL...


The chainsaw OEM oils have gotten better, but only because they were so low quality before. The fact of the matter is the technology present in the best oils available existed and was in use twenty years ago.


----------



## SCHallenger

bwalker said:


> True, but it rarely gets above 3-4'' up here.



Where are you two located? I've seen some ironwood up there (don't remember exactly where) that was in the 7-9in. category. I've never cut it, but I've heard that it's harder than your MIL's head!


----------



## windthrown

Andyshine77 said:


> How are Cottonwoods hard on chainsaws? It cuts like pulp. Now I don't care to burn it, as it burns like paper, the same can be said about pretty much all poplar spices. Black Locusts is pretty dense, but the rest of the spices you mentioned cut fairly easily. Sorry it really sounds like you haven't cut much wood that is actually hard.
> 
> Remember we don't have the rain or the soil you do, our trees generally grow much slower.
> 
> Here's a picture of a Magnolia we have, this is about as far north as I know them to grow.



Black cottonwood here is really hard on saws, especially old growth. Ask anyone that has salvage cut it after floods. Also I live at elevation here in the Cascades, and we are well above the 45th parallel. The seasons are not so long here. And if you want to talk about density, I will put western warm growing Eucalyptus, California live oak and Madrone up against your so-called dense cold growing hardwoods back east.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

hedge ,iron wood, black locust can be nightmares to cut here they will throw sparks and that is with a sharp chain.
and hedge is a PITA to split i got some DEAD seasoned hedge last year i thought dynamite would blow it apart better.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't like the looks of this




This is out of my new Redmax edger with a non adjustable carb....42:1 Yamalube 2R


----------



## mdavlee

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't like the looks of this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is out of my new Redmax edger with a non adjustable carb....42:1 Yamalube 2R


Picture is a little blurry. What's the problem?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Its a nice greyish white color


----------



## KenJax Tree

Here is a better one


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> Here is a better one


That looks spot on to me.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Maybe it is, im just used to a litttle more brown....thats with a little less than 2 tanks through it


----------



## KG441c

Autotune?


----------



## KenJax Tree

No not autotune just non adjustable, it only has an idle screw.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> No not autotune just non adjustable, it only has an idle screw.


Looks good! What oil?


----------



## KenJax Tree

yamalube 2R 42:1


----------



## KG441c

How r u liking the R2


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> How r u liking the R2


I like it. It seems to be leave a better film than Lucas and is the same price, so i'll use it over Lucas.

I still haven't used the Honda HP2 i got which is full synthetic...have you ever used it? Thoughts if you have?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I like it. It seems to be leave a better film than Lucas and is the same price, so i'll use it over Lucas.
> I r
> I still haven't used the Honda HP2 i got which is full synthetic...have you ever used it? Thoughts if you have?


I raced my 2002 yz250 with hp2 at 32to1 with 0 issues. I like hp2 but havent ran it in a saw


----------



## Trx250r180

yamalube leaves black goo on the edge of my plugs too


----------



## mdavlee

Color looks pretty good to me. The wet goo probably doesn't hurt anything. How did the super M do? I may get some of it to try soon. It is local and cheap.

I was talking to a guy at a bike shop and he said HP 2 was good stuff. I've been meaning to try it out myself.


----------



## Miles86

Miles86 said:


> Hey-
> 
> Notice that every factory oil for saws is sae 20 wt. (aka "injector" oil). I think this is due to the carburetor setup at the factory. A heavy oil like k2 or 800T (sae 40wt) might cause a need to slightly richen the tuning to compensate for the change in specific gravity (density) of the fuel mix? It probably wouldn't be noticed.
> http://www.racegas.com/article/26
> https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77794/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420010
> http://www.echo-usa.com/getattachment/d5e66496-3079-4374-82c2-ad427eb044e2
> http://www.maxima.co.jp/images/msds/2stroke/FormulaK2.pdf
> 
> Motul oil has higher specific gravity than typical factory oil (echo) and also higher than K2.
> Factory must feel the lighter oil is adequate (for warranty at least)?



I couldn't edit this so I had to quote it sorry-
I should have written " a higher specific gravity oil would run richer than a lower specific gravity oil", so the carb would need a slightly leaner setting with the higher specific gravity oil, I wrote my thought backwards.

Just for the heck:
spec gravity :
lawnboy ashless- .865
Motul 800- .911
Max K2 - .86
Echo red armor - .88
Belray MC-1 - .92
Belray H1R - .959
Stihl Ultra - .93
Hsqvrna XP - .86
Opti 2 - .874
Citgo/mystic sea/snow - .87
Mercury Quicksilver PWC - .87

Also viscosity and specific gravity are not related - or to say- a 40wt oil is not necessarily a higher density than a 20wt oil.


----------



## bwalker

SCHallenger said:


> Where are you two located? I've seen some ironwood up there (don't remember exactly where) that was in the 7-9in. category. I've never cut it, but I've heard that it's harder than your MIL's head!


Marquette county.


KenJax Tree said:


> Here is a better one


Looks normal to me. Not that you can tell much by looking at a plug like this.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Color looks pretty good to me. The wet goo probably doesn't hurt anything. How did the super M do? I may get some of it to try soon. It is local and cheap.
> 
> I was talking to a guy at a bike shop and he said HP 2 was good stuff. I've been meaning to try it out myself.


I find the smell of HP2 sickening.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I find the smell of HP2 sickening.


Uh oh[emoji53]


----------



## bwalker

windthrown said:


> Black cottonwood here is really hard on saws, especially old growth. Ask anyone that has salvage cut it after floods. Also I live at elevation here in the Cascades, and we are well above the 45th parallel. The seasons are not so long here. And if you want to talk about density, I will put western warm growing Eucalyptus, California live oak and Madrone up against your so-called dense cold growing hardwoods back east.


Madrone has the same BTU content as sugar maple. Our sugar maple is some of the highest density in the world. Hence the premier sports floors come from Upper MI. You can't compare out climate and growing conditions with yours


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> Marquette county.
> 
> Looks normal to me. Not that you can tell much by looking at a plug like this.


That is about what the plug looks like in the 441


Speaking of plug color I was doing some cutting with the 441 and I know M-tronic can leave different colors from time to time.... then I had a thought.

Could chain condition affect plug colour? In all respect when you have a dull chain the saw works harder making more heat thus lean conditions correct?

Also for giggles since plug colour is not the most accurate way of checking tune would piston wash be the way or am I worrying to much lol

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## treedoc40

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition
> 
> *Written *by Allen W. Cline
> 
> Reprinted from Issue 54 of CONTACT! Magazine, published in January, 2000
> 
> All high output engines are prone to destructive tendencies as a result of over boost, misfueling, mis-tuning and inadequate cooling. The engine community pushes ever nearer to the limits of power output. As they often learn cylinder chamber combustion processes can quickly gravitate to engine failure. This article defines two types of engine failures, detonation and pre-ignition, that are as insidious in nature to users as they are hard to recognize and detect. This discussion is intended only as a primer about these combustion processes since whole books have been devoted to the subject.
> 
> First, let us review normal combustion. It is the burning of a fuel and air mixture charge in the combustion chamber. It should burn in a steady, even fashion across the chamber, originating at the spark plug and progressing across the chamber in a three dimensional fashion. Similar to a pebble in a glass smooth pond with the ripples spreading out, the flame front should progress in an orderly fashion. The burn moves all the way across the chamber and , quenches (cools) against the walls and the piston crown. The burn should be complete with no remaining fuel-air mixture. Note that the mixture does not "explode" but burns in an orderly fashion.
> 
> There is another factor that engineers look for to quantify combustion. It is called "location of peak pressure (LPP)." It is measured by an in-cylinder pressure transducer. Ideally, the LPP should occur at 14 degrees after top dead center. Depending on the chamber design and the burn rate, if one would initiate the spark at its optimum timing (20 degrees BTDC, for example) the burn would progress through the chamber and reach LPP, or peak pressure at 14 degrees after top dead center. LPP is a mechanical factor just as an engine is a mechanical device. The piston can only go up and down so fast. If you peak the pressure too soon or too late in the cycle, you won't have optimum work. Therefore, LPP is always 14 degrees ATDC for any engine.
> 
> I introduce LPP now to illustrate the idea that there is a characteristic pressure buildup (compression and combustion) and decay (piston downward movement and exhaust valve opening) during the combustion process that can be considered "normal" if it is smooth, controlled and its peak occurs at 14 degrees ATDC.
> 
> Our enlarged definition of normal combustion now says that the charge/bum is initiated with the spark plug, a nice even burn moves across the chamber, combustion is completed and peak pressure occurs at at 14 ATDC.
> 
> Confusion and a lot of questions exist as to detonation and pre-ignition. Sometimes you hear mistaken terms like "pre-detonation". Detonation is one phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. Pre-ignition is another phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. The two, as we will talk about, are somewhat related but are two distinctly different phenomenon and can induce distinctly different failure modes.
> 
> _*KEY DEFINITIONS *_*Detonation:* Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
> 
> *Pre-ignition:* Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.
> 
> _*DETONATION *_Unburned end gas, under increasing pressure and heat (from the normal progressive burning process and hot combustion chamber metals) spontaneously combusts, ignited solely by the intense heat and pressure. The remaining fuel in the end gas simply lacks sufficient octane rating to withstand this combination of heat and pressure.
> 
> Detonation causes a very high, very sharp pressure spike in the combustion chamber but it is of a very short duration. If you look at a pressure trace of the combustion chamber process, you would see the normal burn as a normal pressure rise, then all of a sudden you would see a very sharp spike when the detonation occurred. That spike always occurs after the spark plug fires. The sharp spike in pressure creates a force in the combustion chamber. It causes the structure of the engine to ring, or resonate, much as if it were hit by a hammer. Resonance, which is characteristic of combustion detonation, occurs at about 6400 Hertz. So the pinging you hear is actually the structure of the engine reacting to the pressure spikes. This noise of detonation is commonly called spark knock. This noise changes only slightly between iron and aluminum. This noise or vibration is what a knock sensor picks up. The knock sensors are tuned to 6400 hertz and they will pick up that spark knock. Incidentally, the knocking or pinging sound is not the result of "two flame fronts meeting" as is often stated. Although this clash does generate a spike the noise you sense comes from the vibration of the engine structure reacting to the pressure spike.
> 
> One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure. The higher the specific output (HP/in3) of the engine, the greater the sensitivity to detonation. An engine that is making 0.5 HP/in3 or less can sustain moderate levels of detonation without any damage; but an engine that is making 1.5 HP/in3, if it detonates, it will probably be damaged fairly quickly, here I mean within minutes.
> 
> Detonation causes three types of failure:
> 
> 1. Mechanical damage (broken ring lands)
> 
> 2. Abrasion (pitting of the piston crown)
> 
> * 3. Overheating (scuffed piston skirts due to excess heat input or high coolant
> temperatures)*


Fantastic article to share...


----------



## redbull660

CR500 said:


> That is about what the plug looks like in the 441
> 
> 
> Speaking of plug color I was doing some cutting with the 441 and I know M-tronic can leave different colors from time to time.... then I had a thought.
> 
> Could chain condition affect plug colour? In all respect when you have a dull chain the saw works harder making more heat thus lean conditions correct?
> 
> Also for giggles since plug colour is not the most accurate way of checking tune would piston wash be the way or am I worrying to much lol
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.



Everything plays into the temp of the saw....

Tune
ported or not ported
oil ratio - more oil or too little oil can make the saw run hotter.
kind of bar
length of bar
time in the cut
type of chain and condition
octane of gas
air filter plugged up or clear
chain tension
wood - type and condition it's in
list could go on and on

As far as oil goes...my bottom line is finding the best out there. Then finding how much (the more the better) oil I can run in my saw with out hindering performance. And the amount of oil does affect the temp and the time. BUT it's saw specific. Cuz all the conditions vary.

Biggest differences I've found are - length of cut, bar, and oil/gas mix.

Is there a ratio that is safe for all? I doubt many saws have been lost at 40:1.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Discounting the past with ignorance of the present and how we got there is the height of stupidity.


We can all look up to you in that respect then. LOL
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

treedoc40 said:


> Fantastic article to share...


Yes, especially so since many on this board and else where do not understand what pre ignition and detonation really are, and as such often confuse the two.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Everything plays into the temp of the saw....
> 
> Tune
> ported or not ported
> oil ratio - more oil or too little oil can make the saw run hotter.
> kind of bar
> length of bar
> time in the cut
> type of chain and condition
> octane of gas
> air filter plugged up or clear
> chain tension
> wood - type and condition it's in
> list could go on and on
> 
> As far as oil goes...my bottom line is finding the best out there. Then finding how much (the more the better) oil I can run in my saw with out hindering performance. And the amount of oil does affect the temp and the time. BUT it's saw specific. Cuz all the conditions vary.
> 
> Biggest differences I've found are - length of cut, bar, and oil/gas mix.
> 
> Is there a ratio that is safe for all? I doubt many saws have been lost at 40:1.


Once you have seen a two stroke ran when equipped with an EGT gauge you realise how little things really effect the load on the motor.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I mixed up some Honda HP2 42ish:1 today and in the bottle it smells awful but has minimal smell when burning. Mufflers are still pretty dry and nothing has blown up so it appears to work.[emoji1]


----------



## KenJax Tree

Anyone got a spec sheet on this HP2 or know what its compared to? I looked but can't find anything.


----------



## mdavlee

I wonder how hot is too hot for the cylinder and piston? I know on diesel trucks with aluminum Pistons 1500 and 2000 degrees is ok for short bursts.


----------



## huskihl

mdavlee said:


> I wonder how hot is too hot for the cylinder and piston? I know on diesel trucks with aluminum Pistons 1500 and 2000 degrees is ok for short bursts.


@bwalker had some snowmobile egt's posted awhile back. 15-1600 I'm thinking is the high limit


----------



## brockhaskins

mdavlee said:


> Color looks pretty good to me. The wet goo probably doesn't hurt anything. How did the super M do? I may get some of it to try soon. It is local and cheap.
> 
> I was talking to a guy at a bike shop and he said HP 2 was good stuff. I've been meaning to try it out myself.


We've run about 3.5 gallons of Super m in the last week. Haven't pulled any saws apart as I don't do that unless necessary. I like the way it runs. Everyone one the crew noticed throttle response seemed a little better and power may seems up a little. Was using lucas before.


----------



## RedFir Down

Fellas all I have to say is this is weird.... Im mean alot here are trying different oils at different ratio's and not a single saw has grenaded!!!! Whats going on here?


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> @bwalker had some snowmobile egt's posted awhile back. 15-1600 I'm thinking is the high limit


I set mine to alarm at 1225 IIRC. But the number is meaningless unless one know the distance from the piston that the probe is placed at.


----------



## Whitespider

RedFir Down said:


> *Fellas all I have to say is this is weird.... Im mean alot here are trying different oils at different ratio's and not a single saw has grenaded!!!! Whats going on here?*


      
And here I thought no one else had noticed‼
*


----------



## CR500

Pulled the cylinder on the 7900 tonight after about 5 gallons of fuel mixed with K2 and I had carbon....
Not a huge thing to me lol

None the less the crank was coated in a real nice coat of oil. If it looks like that to me I can see the saw living a healthy life.


I really don't tear down a saw for this, I was more interested in how the saw came apart and to see how tight the crankcase is on these saws (holy cow there is no room in that case lol how does the7900 run so good ????)

I'm very pleased with how K2 and 32:1 are doing so far. Yamalube is next to try. Looking forward to purple fuel haha 

I know 5 gallons is minor but none the less I had a some stress reliving fun lol 
Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## huskihl

CR500 said:


> Pulled the cylinder on the 7900 tonight after about 5 gallons of fuel mixed with K2 and I had carbon....
> Not a huge thing to me lol
> 
> None the less the crank was coated in a real nice coat of oil. If it looks like that to me I can see the saw living a healthy life.
> 
> 
> I really don't tear down a saw for this, I was more interested in how the saw came apart and to see how tight the crankcase is on these saws (holy cow there is no room in that case lol how does the7900 run so good ????)
> 
> I'm very pleased with how K2 and 32:1 are doing so far. Yamalube is next to try. Looking forward to purple fuel haha
> 
> I know 5 gallons is minor but none the less I had a some stress reliving fun lol
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


Yea they're not bad to work on. At first, I thought it resembled a cross between husky and stihl by the way they're put together.


----------



## bwalker

CR500 said:


> Pulled the cylinder on the 7900 tonight after about 5 gallons of fuel mixed with K2 and I had carbon....
> Not a huge thing to me lol
> 
> None the less the crank was coated in a real nice coat of oil. If it looks like that to me I can see the saw living a healthy life.
> 
> 
> I really don't tear down a saw for this, I was more interested in how the saw came apart and to see how tight the crankcase is on these saws (holy cow there is no room in that case lol how does the7900 run so good ????)
> 
> I'm very pleased with how K2 and 32:1 are doing so far. Yamalube is next to try. Looking forward to purple fuel haha
> 
> I know 5 gallons is minor but none the less I had a some stress reliving fun lol
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


You should have carbon on the piston crown if your tuned right.


----------



## CR500

bwalker said:


> You should have carbon on the piston crown if your tuned right.


I was being sarcastic lol

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## BuckMKII

I do miss the good 'ol days when I didn't care about oil then I met Mobil1 MX2T/Racing2T. It was an awesome oil for $3.50 a pint or $7 a quart @ Autozone. I've tried different oils since the supply of Mobil dried up, mostly Motul 710 and Stihl Ultra since I can get them both at my Stihl dealer. I also really like Baileys Woodlandpro syn. The price is right on Bailey's oil and I can have it delivered to my front door without having to leave the house. Also the Woodlandpro oil exhaust has a very negligible smell which is a plus in my book. 

Those of you who want to try Bailey's oil check Amazon. Bailey's offer $1.99 shipping on their oils from time to time when purchased through Amazon.


----------



## BuckMKII

I got some of the G-Oil 16 ounce bottles from Walmart on clearance for a buck a piece. The exhaust smoke smells exactly like you are burning hamburger meat while grilling so I'm not using it now even though I'm sure its an okay oil. This gets the award for the worst smelling exhaust. I'd take the old 40 weight ND mixed @16:1 smell over this any day.


----------



## porsche965

Does anyone have any past pictures of the Mobil 2T oil in their saws? 

Does anyone remember any downside to this oil? Sure seems like a Miracle Oil to me. Why did they quit producing it?


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> Does anyone have any past pictures of the Mobil 2T oil in their saws?
> 
> Does anyone remember any downside to this oil? Sure seems like a Miracle Oil to me. Why did they quit producing it?


I bought 2 cases today, whutchutalkinabout?


----------



## porsche965

Well now just how did you do that? I say Good on You!


----------



## huskihl

Trx250r180 said:


> I bought 2 cases today, whutchutalkinabout?


OAD?


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> Well now just how did you do that? I say Good on You!


Got it from the oil store downtown,where else would you get oil?


----------



## Whitespider

Trx250r180 said:


> *Got it from the oil store downtown,where else would you get oil?*


From the oil well in my back yard 
*


----------



## VinceGU05

porsche965 said:


> Does anyone have any past pictures of the Mobil 2T oil in their saws?
> 
> Does anyone remember any downside to this oil? Sure seems like a Miracle Oil to me. Why did they quit producing it?


Still available downunder. But a fair bit more than 7 bucks a quart.


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> Well now just how did you do that? I say Good on You!


Hullo


----------



## Moparmyway

Showoff


----------



## BuckMKII

Trx250r180 said:


> Hullo  View attachment 430366



Is that red bottle MX2T oil dyed red like Racing 2T? The gray bottle MX2T didn't have any dye in it.


----------



## Trx250r180

BuckMKII said:


> Is that red bottle MX2T oil dyed red like Racing 2T? The gray bottle MX2T didn't have any dye in it.


It is a gold color,i do like the dye in the yamalube ,can tell it is saw gas that way


----------



## BuckMKII

Trx250r180 said:


> It is a gold color,i do like the dye in the yamalube ,can tell it is saw gas that way
> View attachment 430380


Thanks.


----------



## CR500

Trx250r180 said:


> It is a gold color,i do like the dye in the yamalube ,can tell it is saw gas that way
> View attachment 430380


Same thing with HP2 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR500 said:


> Same thing with HP2
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I just burned a few gallons of HP2 i like it.


----------



## Trx250r180

VinceGU05 said:


> Still available downunder. But a fair bit more than 7 bucks a quart.



The boxes i found say mx2t ,same stuff though ,just has a dirtbike on it ,i found a place that had some old stock still ,does not hurt to call places that sell mobil oil and see if have some old sock ,i posted in the mobil thread also ,but here is for those that have not seen the thread


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I just burned a few gallons of HP2 i like it.


At 32:1 it seems a tad Smokey..... smell is good though 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR500 said:


> At 32:1 it seems a tad Smokey..... smell is good though
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I mixed it 42:1 (3oz) and it didn't smoke at all


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I mixed it 42:1 (3oz) and it didn't smoke at all


I just thought about this lol, I tore it down and added some extra oil around the piston Friday night. Then started it with HP2, that excess assembly may explain the smoke lol the was less Smokey as the day went on Saturday.

Quick question with anyone that owns a 7900 what are your settings on your carb? I had to lean the saw out a hair and it was 4 stroking light under a moderate load. H was set 1 turn out.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR500 said:


> I just thought about this lol, I tore it down and added some extra oil around the piston Friday night. Then started it with HP2, that excess assembly may explain the smoke lol the was less Smokey as the day went on Saturday.
> 
> Quick question with anyone that owns a 7900 what are your settings on your carb? I had to lean the saw out a hair and it was 4 stroking light under a moderate load. H was set 1 turn out.
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.



It can be tricky with the limited coil, you may be hearing the limiter under light load. With the heat we've had lately it's not surprising if it's actually running a bit rich.


----------



## huskihl

CR500 said:


> I just thought about this lol, I tore it down and added some extra oil around the piston Friday night. Then started it with HP2, that excess assembly may explain the smoke lol the was less Smokey as the day went on Saturday.
> 
> Quick question with anyone that owns a 7900 what are your settings on your carb? I had to lean the saw out a hair and it was 4 stroking light under a moderate load. H was set 1 turn out.
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I have to rebuild the carb on mine maybe this week. I'll try to remember to take note of the settings and report back


----------



## huskihl

Andyshine77 said:


> It can be tricky with the limited coil, you may be hearing the limiter under light load.


And that's no lie. I purchased mine blown up. Rebuilt it from the ground up and ported it while I was at it. First cut was on a 10" green elm blow down. Had to take a few swipes off the rakers to get it to 4 cycle in the cut lol. My only limited coil....not a fan


----------



## Andyshine77

huskihl said:


> I have to rebuild the carb on mine maybe this week. I'll try to remember to take note of the settings and report back



Make sure the welch plug is sealed properly, if not replace the carb with a Walbro HD 12, same carb the old 372 uses.


----------



## Andyshine77

huskihl said:


> And that's no lie. I purchased mine blown up. Rebuilt it from the ground up and ported it while I was at it. First cut was on a 10" green elm blow down. Had to take a few swipes off the rakers to get it to 4 cycle in the cut lol. My only limited coil....not a fan



Takes some time to get use to tuning. The issue is some saws will run fine set just under the limiter, the 7900 will be dog rich, they want to rev.


----------



## Gypo Logger

After all these posts and after all this time, 50:1 is clearly a conspiracy. Look what I find on my doorstep from a log builder who uses 50:1 I can fix them but not if he wont use at least 40:1. 50:1 is a glorified home owners mix.
John


----------



## 2dogs

Well at least he has good taste in beer.


----------



## Gypo Logger

2dogs said:


> Well at least he has good taste in beer.


Ya, it was nice he left the beer, but alas, it was shaken up almost as much as the saws were, so I guessed I had just missed Pete, cause Im just about ready to read him the riot act about mix. I'm gonna give him my 385 @ 40:1, that should smarten him up! Lol
If some is good, more is better.


----------



## redbull660

send him here, make him read it all. lol


----------



## Whitespider

Gypo Logger said:


> *...50:1 is clearly a conspiracy. Look what I find on my doorstep from a log builder who uses 50:1...*


Shouldn't you take a look at 'em before blaming 50:1??
Maybe he, or an employee, strait gassed 'em... or...

Just sayin'.
*


----------



## Tor R

They are easy to find here in Norway.
A family to me working in a Husqvarna shop, somehow they also sell Mobil oil, got it for 11,70$


----------



## Gypo Logger

Whitespider said:


> Shouldn't you take a look at 'em before blaming 50:1??
> Maybe he, or an employee, strait gassed 'em... or...
> 
> Just sayin'.
> *


That is always a possibility, but in this case not likely. He makes lots of long cuts and usually has bottom end problems. I gave him my 385 today to use and a jug of 32:1.


----------



## Bwildered

Gypo Logger said:


> That is always a possibility, but in this case not likely. He makes lots of long cuts and usually has bottom end problems. I gave him my 385 today to use and a jug of 32:1.


The husky looks like it has got a couple of million on the clock, it's probably been gone for a while & he was just waiting till another went, because you really can't give half a beer for fixing one saw, LOL
Thansk


----------



## Gypo Logger

Bwildered said:


> The husky looks like it has got a couple of million on the clock, it's probably been gone for a while & he was just waiting till another went, because you really can't give half a beer for fixing one saw, LOL
> Thansk


Yes your right, the 2100 had seen better days, but he got six months and two houses out of it so it doesnt owe anybody anything. I found it in the dump with a striped spark plug hole.
The 460 was scored on the exhaust and the 2100 was scored on the intake side.
The 460 is up and running thanks to the J&P that Cut4Fun so kindly sent me.
In defense of 50:1, the cranks were not dry on either saw.


----------



## Gypo Logger

BTW, could those two pistons be buffed out?
Just asking.
John


----------



## KenJax Tree

I knew a few girls that could polish em right up.[emoji1]


----------



## Gypo Logger

KenJax Tree said:


> I knew a few girls that could polish em right up.[emoji1]


Well, where are they when you need them? Lol
Im really impressed with the 460 in how fast it starts and runs. I only did a gasket delete and stock muffler with the larger port. Stihl, in alot of ways is the better saw. 
I traded the 460 for an 090g. Did I come out on the fuzzy end of the lollipop? Lol.
John


----------



## VinceGU05

Got this buffed out and used it 



After.


----------



## Moparmyway

Vince, I would be afraid of piston slap on that one ............ were you able to measure skirt clearance ?


----------



## KG441c

MM390xp after noodling 5 truckloads of wood. Plenty of oil running Klotz r50 @32:1 with Sunoco 110 /87 efree @ 50/50


----------



## Moparmyway

Thats how my motors with R50 look.
I havent seen any other oil look like it.

I bet you can wipe that center of the piston with a rag and it will clean up


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Thats how my motors with R50 look.
> I havent seen any other oil look like it.
> 
> I bet you can wipe that center of the piston with a rag and it will clean up


Hadnt tried it Mopar. Just tore saw down right quick to see it everything was wearing right after putting new piston and rings in. I know this Louisiana heat and humidity like to killed me noodling that much wood up!!!! Lol!!


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Hadnt tried it Mopar. Just tore saw down right quick to see it everything was wearing right after putting new piston and rings in. I know this Louisiana heat and humidity like to killed me noodling that much wood up!!!! Lol!!


Any idea of about how much fuel you used for those 5 truckloads of wood ?


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Any idea of about how much fuel you used for those 5 truckloads of wood ?


It wasnt alot but I didnt pay attention Mopar. Maybe 2 gallons? Dang heat had me delirious!!!


----------



## Dave27483

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna run Belray H1R 32:1 no matter what any test "proves".....
> 
> I've been inside a chit ton on saw engines. When I pull one down that's been ran on less, or "cheaper" oil, I don't like what I see. Yeah, with my own eyes.
> 
> I've used K2, Motul, Mobil 2T, and H1R. They are all great oils. But at any ratio less than 32:1, I'd feel as though I was cheaping out on the level of protection.


What is your honest opinion on stihl ultra hp


----------



## Dave27483

Mastermind said:


> I'm pretty sure Gordon Jennings research trumps yours.
> 
> Even if it is 40 years old.


You know what's funny mastermind, I used to run 50:1 in everything until I started reading yours and mr snellings post about 32:1 I now run 32:1 and my old 046 magnum definatly feels more powerful that before. As you say it may be the whole ring seal factor. I'm sold on it anyways


----------



## KenJax Tree

Dave27483 said:


> You know what's funny mastermind, I used to run 50:1 in everything until I started reading yours and mr snellings post about 32:1 I now run 32:1 and my old 046 magnum definatly feels more powerful that before. As you say it may be the whole ring seal factor. I'm sold on it anyways


The mind is a powerful thing[emoji6]


----------



## MustangMike

Ditto here, I used 50:1 for 18 yrs, but I only went to 40:1, and I'm using your oil Chris, Thanks!


----------



## MustangMike

Ditto here, I used 50:1 for 18 yrs, but I only went to 40:1, and I'm using your oil Chris, Thanks!


----------



## KenJax Tree

MustangMike said:


> Ditto here, I used 50:1 for 18 yrs, but I only went to 40:1, and I'm using your oil Chris, Thanks!


No problem Mike....i'm glad its getting used.


----------



## KenJax Tree

No posts in 2 days?!?! Has everyone finally figured out that 50:1 dyno is the way to go?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> No posts in 2 days?!?! Has everyone finally figured out that 50:1 dyno is the way to go?


32:1 r50 in carb saws and 32:1 r2 or k2 in autotune/mtronics


----------



## porsche965

KG441c said:


> 32:1 r50 in carb saws and 32:1 r2 or k2 in autotune/mtronics



What brought you to this conclusion? Viscosity and adjustments?


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> What brought you to this conclusion? Viscosity and adjustments?


Pretty much but Ive learned to keep my thoughts and opinions to myself here . Nothing but a never ending discussion thats runs in circles with no conclusion. That setup is what works for me and what Ive settled on. For firewood cutting Ill probably settle on 32:1 K2 for simplicity


----------



## porsche965

Just about any oil will run @ 32:1 without any engine damage when tuned correctly. It is the higher ratios that separate the best from the rest


----------



## porsche965

I've got some K2 to try next.


----------



## MustangMike

All my saws seem happy with 40:1, I see no reason to change. It is like using a 165 gr bullet in a 30-06 while some argue for 180 gr and others argue for 150 gr. My ballistic testing showed that bullet construction is more important than wt, so I actually use a 168 gr Barnes.


----------



## porsche965

Well heck, I don't have a 30-06. Does that knock me out of the oil thread? lol But I get what you are saying.

After reading about Optimal 2 and having used the original Optimal 25 years ago or so, "whatever it was called then," oil with no problems anxious to see how that one goes too.

At this point I think I have enough gallons of different quality oils to out last my body's capabilities using them all up! I hope not but am getting pretty close!!


----------



## porsche965

The Barrett Training is on my Bucket List. To purchase and then be trained by the best how to use this would be like going to Oil School lol. (Is there an oil school?) https://barrett.net/training/locations/barrett-manufacturing-facility

In the meantime I'm slowly scratching off The Bucket List-Oil Testing...one bottle at a time.


----------



## mdavlee

MustangMike said:


> All my saws seem happy with 40:1, I see no reason to change. It is like using a 165 gr bullet in a 30-06 while some argue for 180 gr and others argue for 150 gr. My ballistic testing showed that bullet construction is more important than wt, so I actually use a 168 gr Barnes.


208 amax FTW


----------



## MustangMike

I presume you are using it for target shooting??? What powder????

I get excellent accuracy with some of the Nosler bullets, but for penetration, I don't think you will find anything that will compare to the Barnes.


----------



## Tor R

MustangMike said:


> I get excellent accuracy with some of the Nosler bullets, but for penetration, I don't think you will find anything that will compare to the Barnes.


I was reloading my own amunition before, well, still do.
6,5x55, 7x64, 30-06, 375 mag, I simply load with the Oryx bullet. Good accuracy and most important for me, I like the penetration.
Barnes X in s 30-378 though


----------



## huskihl

Oh great. Now it's a bullet thread. You guys could have changed it to something with a few less possibilities. You know..like coffee...or sandwiches


----------



## mdavlee

MustangMike said:


> I presume you are using it for target shooting??? What powder????
> 
> I get excellent accuracy with some of the Nosler bullets, but for penetration, I don't think you will find anything that will compare to the Barnes.


300WSM and Rl 22 was a touch over 2800 FPS. On a good day I could keep MOA to 800. I like a lot of the Sierra match king for targets. 69 grain I can keep a 3" 5 shot at 400 yards out of a 16" AR. 

Frog lube is best


----------



## MustangMike

I had some very accurate loads with my 270 WSM with RL 22 and Nosler BT 130 gr., but they were hot and the Brass was not holding up, so I switched to a lighter load with 4350. Not quite as accurate, but the brass lasts longer. I was getting 5/16" groups at 100 yds with a hunting rifle (I glass bedded it).

I also have a batch of now discontinued Barnes MRX (Tungston Core) Bullets that I save for hunting with that rifle. They shoot very well, accuracy is very good (better than with the all copper Barnes) and penetration is exceptional. They are also shorter, which is advantages in this round.

Sounds like you do some real nice shooting there!


----------



## mdavlee

Rl 22 was 150 faster than the H4350. I tried 4831SC also. The a max was the most accurate. 3/4" or so at 200 and 2.5" @400 off bipods.


----------



## Tor R

MustangMike said:


> I had some very accurate loads with my 270 WSM with RL 22 and Nosler BT 130 gr., but they were hot and the Brass was not holding up, so I switched to a lighter load with 4350. Not quite as accurate, but the brass lasts longer. I was getting 5/16" groups at 100 yds with a hunting rifle (I glass bedded it).


another thing you may consider is whether the brass is of good quality.
You may be surprised how huge different there is in quality brand to brand.
This may have changed since the time I did lots of reloading, when I compared the brands the one I was most happy with where Lapua, Norma on a second place, but in the caliber you have they may not be avaible at all.

btw, that is a nice group with a hunting rifle.


----------



## MustangMike

Thanks, I was using Winchester brass, and generally my best accuracy was the first neck size after initially fire forming it. I also wait a minute or two between shots so things don't heat up too much.


----------



## KG441c

Anyone use Berger 185gr in a Win. .308 for hunting or would the Berger 168 be better. Around my neck of the woods a shot to 500yds would be very rare and would be clearcut or pipeline/highline shots. Most shots typically within 250yds


----------



## MustangMike

I like the 168 Barnes for hunting, and my 06 groups them in the same place as 165 Rem CL heads, so I can target shoot cheaply.

Contrary to popular believe, penetration is not dependent on bullet wt as much as it is on bullet construction, and the lighter bullets shoot flatter, making it easier to go with a one point sight in for your 250 yards.


----------



## Trx250r180

Hullo


----------



## Trx250r180

Sure wish you could still get this stuff 

Oil thread ???


----------



## KenJax Tree

Whatever happened with the Mobil racing 2T that was bought at the mystery auto parts supplier and was overcharged for? Anyone receive their oil yet?


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Sure wish you could still get this stuff
> 
> Oil thread ???
> View attachment 431952


Hoarder !!


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Hoarder !!


Not bragging or anything ,but there is more at home in the shop


----------



## KenJax Tree

Oh shut up!!![emoji1]


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Not bragging or anything ,but there is more at home in the shop


Give a squirrell a nut ......................... want to sell some ?


----------



## Andyshine77

Moparmyway said:


> Give a squirrell a nut ......................... want to sell some ?


My brother still has half a quart. $50.00 and its all yours. [emoji6]


----------



## mdavlee

Back off its all mine[emoji12]


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Back off its all mine[emoji12]


Wanna bet?


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> Wanna bet?


You're in on it too? [emoji1] 

I got a little bit on the way. Figure I'll give it a shot.


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> You're in on it too? [emoji1]
> 
> I got a little bit on the way. Figure I'll give it a shot.


In on what


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> In on what


Oh nothing[emoji41]


----------



## redbull660

some of this video was run on h1r 45:1 and some of it on motul 800 45:1. Temps were approx 5-7F apart between the two. H1R reading about 299F and 800 reading 305F times were nearly identical as well. Didn't notice much difference between the two.

I do have some motul 800 45:1 and 32:1 mixed up. I may have time to run some cuts between the two tomorrow. note: I had to give the thermo gun back to my friend as he needs it for work for a few days or so. So it'll only be timed stuff. Main thing I would be looking for would be huge slow down in time like h1r going from 45:1 to 32:1.


----------



## Andyshine77

Without a temperature sensor in the cylinder exhaust port, the actual combustion temperature is hard to determine. Nevertheless thanks for posting your findings, even though I disagree with some of your methods.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> My brother still has half a quart. $50.00 and its all yours. [emoji6]
> 
> View attachment 431987


Talk about price gouging ...........................


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> All my saws seem happy with 40:1, I see no reason to change. It is like using a 165 gr bullet in a 30-06 while some argue for 180 gr and others argue for 150 gr. My ballistic testing showed that bullet construction is more important than wt, so I actually use a 168 gr Barnes.


Barnes are great for shooting an animal in the vitals and having it run off like nothing happened. Especially in a 30 ought 6.


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Barnes are great for shooting an animal in the vitals and having it run off like nothing happened. Especially in a 30 ought 6.


 Not in my experience. But everyone has a different story. Controlled expansion of an X Bullet might be a factor at long range if it didn't hit bone, but if you touch a rib with one it's a different ball of wax. Another one I like is the Swift scirocco. It's been my favorite ballistic tip for guaranteed but controlled expansion, at least in a 300 ultramag.
Oh and by the way. Picked up 2 gallons of fd certified citgo sea and snow at the co-op. $22/gal. Gonna be til fall before I get to it tho.


----------



## redbull660

bullet on flesh or ballistic gel block, night and day difference when you add clothes or hide or bone or cartilage into the mix

impact velocity &
State of CNS (central nervous system) for example of the animal is on "alert" generally the bullet will "perform" not as effectively.

also play huge roles in how well a bullet "performs".


----------



## huskihl

redbull660 said:


> bullet on flesh or ballistic gel block, night and day difference when you add clothes or hide or bone or cartilage into the mix
> 
> impact velocity &
> State of CNS (central nervous system) for example of the animal is on "alert" generally the bullet will "perform" not as effectively.
> 
> also play huge roles in how well a bullet "performs".


I asked my 300UM the other day about the deer's cns. He didn't think much of it. His big brother, the 338UM just laughed.


----------



## redbull660

Bambi isn't exactly dangerous game....338RUM on bambi...guess you like burger instead of steak.


----------



## huskihl

redbull660 said:


> Bambi isn't exactly dangerous game....338RUM on bambi...guess you like burger instead of steak.


Yea. Originally bought them for elk. Had to try it on deer tho. Gotta go for heart. You hit a rib on a quartering shot and the off side shoulder is toast.


----------



## mdavlee

Neighbor took a doe with a 338 lapua shooting 300 grain Berger. It took out a chunk of off side shoulder and was a touch over 500 yards


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> Not in my experience. But everyone has a different story. Controlled expansion of an X Bullet might be a factor at long range if it didn't hit bone, but if you touch a rib with one it's a different ball of wax. Another one I like is the Swift scirocco. It's been my favorite ballistic tip for guaranteed but controlled expansion, at least in a 300 ultramag.
> Oh and by the way. Picked up 2 gallons of fd certified citgo sea and snow at the co-op. $22/gal. Gonna be til fall before I get to it tho.


Sea and Snow is an injector oil.. Redbull is probaly trembling at the thought of all that solvent.
I shot an elk at under 50 yards last year with a 180gr TTSX from a 300 ultra at 3400fps. The elk showed no reaction at the shot and ran 70 yards before tipping over. No blood trail till the last ten yards. On side should was broken at the elbow and off side was intact but bloodshot to hell. Exit hole was hard to find.. nickel sized.
In 13 I shot an antelope 3 times with a 25-06 ai and a 100gr tsx at 33350 fps.Reacted to each shot but wasn't going down. All shots where classic behind the shoulder shots.
I have had them wprk well too, but have also seen some really wonky stuff.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Bambi isn't exactly dangerous game....338RUM on bambi...guess you like burger instead of steak.


The 300um and a 165 no bt is pretty damn decisiveness crop damage deer. As in I have never had one run at all. Just don't shoot them where there is meat..


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> The 300um and a 165 no bt is pretty damn decisiveness crop damage deer. As in I have never had one run at all. Just don't shoot them where there is meat..


First kill with the 338RUM was 150 yds through a small opening in the woods. Freehand. Saw the bull and waited for him to take 1 more step. He did. I shot. Bull went down.
I hit it above the lungs and below the spine. No man's land. Took off the top half of both lungs and eliminated 8" of spine. 250gr Swift Aframe


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Sea and Snow is an injector oil.. Redbull is probaly trembling at the thought of all that solvent.
> I shot an elk at under 50 yards last year with a 180gr TTSX from a 300 ultra at 3400fps. The elk showed no reaction at the shot and ran 70 yards before tipping over. No blood trail till the last ten yards. On side should was broken at the elbow and off side was intact but bloodshot to hell. Exit hole was hard to find.. nickel sized.
> In 13 I shot an antelope 3 times with a 25-06 ai and a 100gr tsx at 33350 fps.Reacted to each shot but wasn't going down. All shots where classic behind the shoulder shots.
> I have had them wprk well too, but have also seen some really wonky stuff.


I'm OK with it being an injector/premix oil. At 32:1 I'd bet a couple paychecks it'll be just fine


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Bambi isn't exactly dangerous game....338RUM on bambi...guess you like burger instead of steak.


The 300um and a 165 noz bt is pretty damn decisive on crop damage deer. As in I have never had one run at all. Just don't shoot them where there is meat..


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> The 300um and a 165 noz bt is pretty damn decisive on crop damage deer. As in I have never had one run at all. Just don't shoot them where there is meat..


I've mostly used the factory scirocco bonded 180gr in the 300rum. Anything on a deer I hit with it had a 1-1/2" hole through it, just a lot more excessive internal damage if you hit something solid.


----------



## Whitespider

MustangMike said:


> *It is like using a 165 gr bullet in a 30-06 while some argue for 180 gr and others argue for 150 gr. My ballistic testing showed that bullet construction is more important than wt...*


180 grain cast in in the .30-06...
I use bullets of the same construction in everything, handguns or rifles... cast lead.
They always kill what I point them at... (shrug)... don't see no need to pay for fancy copper-condomized projectiles.
I mean... c'mon... is a fancy $5.00 bullet gonna' make something more dead?? Seriously??
*


----------



## bwalker

Sw


huskihl said:


> I've mostly used the factory scirocco bonded 180gr in the 300rum. Anything on a deer I hit with it had a 1-1/2" hole through it, just a lot more excessive internal damage if you hit something solid.


Swift scirocco has always been a ***** bullet as far as accuracy goes for me so I stopped trying to get them to work.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> MM390xp after noodling 5 truckloads of wood. Plenty of oil running Klotz r50 @32:1 with Sunoco 110 /87 efree @ 50/50View attachment 431098
> View attachment 431097


Running very rich. I have a lawn boy that's has a completely bare piston. It has a fixed jet carb and runs pig rich all the time.


----------



## bwalker

VinceGU05 said:


> Got this buffed out and used it
> 
> 
> 
> After.


Congrats, you have put polish on a turd. When that piston cracks and drops a piece of skirt, you will have more polishing to do.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> 180 grain cast in in the .30-06...
> I use bullets of the same construction in everything, handguns or rifles... cast lead.
> They always kill what I point them at... (shrug)... don't see no need to pay for fancy copper-condomized projectiles.
> I mean... c'mon... is a fancy $5.00 bullet gonna' make something more dead?? Seriously??
> *


Cast bullets and runs 026's.. it's make sense now..your a Luddite!


----------



## redbull660

running some h1r 45:1 then some 800 45:1 with 41" bar...


----------



## smokey7

I dont know where the mobil 1 racing thread went i cant find it. Either way the case of oil i got that costed me a arm and a leg got given to my dad for part of his fathers day gift. I couldnt justify doing much else with it. Plus i needed to get my day to stop running tcw3 crap oil. I get tired of rebuilding his saws from it. I am sorry for making myself look foolish to all.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Cast bullets and runs 026's.. it's make sense now..your a Luddite!*


Hmmmm...... can't figure how you make the leap from today's bullet casting to Luddism??

Getting a cast bullet to perform in a modern cartridge rifle using modern smokeless powder requires a much higher level of technological and ballistic understanding (especially internal ballistics) than stuffing store bought, copper-covered bullets in brass. Even casting the bullets themselves requires some understanding of metallurgy... as it's an alloy, not pure lead, that's used in smokeless powder cartridges. And then you need an understanding of how changes made to the alloy relate to pressures (internal ballistics), the requirements of bullet lubrication as pressures and velocities increase, proper sizing, the effects of heat treating and aging, etc., etc., etc... Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "cast lead" in the original post... maybe I should'a used "cast lead-based _alloy_".

There ain't anything "old school" about using cast bullets in modern smokeless powder cartridge rifles, jacketed bullets have a longer history with them... over half a century longer. A Luddite would be stuffing lead round balls over black powder in iron tubes... and jacketed bullets over smokeless powder is closer to Luddism than cast bullets over twenty-first century smokeless powder.

Fancy (so called) high performance jacketed bullets?? It's about the magic... ain't it??
*


----------



## mdavlee

redbull660 said:


> running some h1r 45:1 then some 800 45:1 with 41" bar...



Any time difference? I'm at work and can't watch without stopping to buffer.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Hmmmm...... can't figure how you make the leap from today's bullet casting to Luddism??
> 
> Getting a cast bullet to perform in a modern cartridge rifle using modern smokeless powder requires a much higher level of technological and ballistic understanding (especially internal ballistics) than stuffing store bought, copper-covered bullets in brass. Even casting the bullets themselves requires some understanding of metallurgy... as it's an alloy, not pure lead, that's used in smokeless powder cartridges. And then you need an understanding of how changes made to the alloy relate to pressures (internal ballistics), the requirements of bullet lubrication as pressures and velocities increase, proper sizing, the effects of heat treating and aging, etc., etc., etc... Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "cast lead" in the original post... maybe I should'a used "cast lead-based _alloy_".
> 
> There ain't anything "old school" about using cast bullets in modern smokeless powder cartridge rifles, jacketed bullets have a longer history with them... over half a century longer. A Luddite would be stuffing lead round balls over black powder in iron tubes... and jacketed bullets over smokeless powder is closer to Luddism than cast bullets over twenty-first century smokeless powder.
> 
> Fancy (so called) high performance jacketed bullets?? It's about the magic... ain't it??
> *


No, no magic involved..it's just I can't drive my fancy copper coated bullets much faster hence the shoot much flatter and kill much more decisivly. And cast technology is pre 20th century..give me a break..
And I cast my own bullets for certain cartridges like that 45 colt.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *...it's just I can't drive my fancy copper coated bullets much faster... ...cast technology is pre 20th century..give me a break...*


Really?? In the .30-06?? How much faster??
I believe you'd better investigate 21st century cast bullet technology before you make yourself look more the fool... advancements in stronger alloys and various powder coating have put jacketed velocities well within reach. 
By-the-way, the jacketed bullet was invented in 1882, and by 1886 it was standard military issue for the French Lebel rifle... that makes your "_*fancy copper coated bullets*_" also pre 20th century technology.
While jacketed bullet technology has mostly been stagnate over the last several decades (except for different variations on decades old technology), cast technology has advanced beyond anything dreamed possible just a couple of decades ago.
Give _*me*_ a break... you're the one with beliefs and ideas founded in the past... it ain't me.
*


----------



## Whitespider

Oh... one more thing bwalker,
A "flatter shooting" bullet does not make a better killer... but it does allow the shooter to be less of a rifleman.
Extreme long range shooting was accomplished long before the jacketed bullet... but it does require the shooter to be extremely knowledgeable in the field of exterior ballistics (i.e., an extremely good rifleman).
*


----------



## Trx250r180

Can someone explain the difference between 2r on the oil labels ,and 2 T ? this mobil stuff has a T ,can i mix it with 2R ,or have to drain everything bone dry first ?


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Oh... one more thing bwalker,
> A "flatter shooting" bullet does not make a better killer... but it does allow the shooter to be less of a rifleman.
> Extreme long range shooting was accomplished long before the jacketed bullet... but it does require the shooter to be extremely knowledgeable in the field of exterior ballistics (i.e., an extremely good rifleman).
> *


The various miltary of the world would disagree and in spades. 
It's funny that you equate alloy in cast bullets as high tech... it's not.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Can someone explain the difference between 2r on the oil labels ,and 2 T ? this mobil stuff has a T ,can i mix it with 2R ,or have to drain everything bone dry first ?View attachment 432313


2r is dyed red, 2t is undyed. Same stuff.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> 2r is dyed red, 2t is undyed. Same stuff.


Thanks sir ,i see why they never sold the T then ,they could not see it with no dye


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *The various miltary of the world would disagree and in spades.*


*LOL ‼*
Again, you show you somehow believe you know what you're talking about... when you don't have a friggin' clue.

The reason various military of the world use full metal jacketed bullets has _absolutely nothing_ to do with ballistic superiority or "killing" ability. It was because of Declaration #3 of the 1899 Haque Convention which outlawed bullets used in international warfare that would expand, flatten or otherwise deform inside the human body. The easiest, quickest, least complicated, and least expensive way to conform was to encase the bullet in gilding metal. Of course, that was only possible if your military was using smokeless powder... because black powder required soft (near pure) lead bullets. Gilding metal encased bullets also allowed the use of tracers, incendiary rounds, steel cores which could penetrate armor, and more.

There was only one major power that refused to ratify the Declaration... guess which one and why.
It was the United States that refused... because some parts of the U.S. military were still using the black powder .45-70-500 Government cartridge with a soft cast lead bullet (with an effective nose-first killing range of 3500 yards). The military was also using the .30 Army (.30-40 Krag) at the time, with a jacketed soft nose bullet and smokeless powder, but it was proving to be problematic and less than ideal as a "killer", especially at extended ranges (and could not match the effective range of the 500 grain cast lead .45-70 bullet)... not until the higher-velocity .30-03 cartridge (forerunner to the .30-06) did the U.S. abide by the Haque Convention Declaration #3.

The flatter shooting .30 Army cartridge made range estimation less critical, but did not make for a better "killer".
So... exactly on which of those two points would the various military disagree me??
The most devastating projectiles ever used on the battlefield were those soft lead hunks thrown during the American Civil War... they would tear limbs clean off. The Hague Convention sought to reduce the devastating effectiveness, not to increase it... the full metal jacketed bullet is a more humane wounder, not a better "killer".
Get your facts straight...
*


----------



## bwalker

The US never signed the Hague convention and is currently using open tip match bullets AKA hollow points in combat.
I have shot animals with bullets nearly identical to those used in the civil war.. the damage is paltry compared to something like a Berger VLD.
You can add bullets to the list of subjects you don't have a clue about..


----------



## blsnelling

Come on boys!


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The US never signed the Hague convention and is currently using open tip match bullets AKA hollow points in combat.
> I have shot animals with bullets nearly identical to those used in the civil war.. the damage is paltry compared to something like a Berger VLD.
> You can add bullets to the list of subjects you don't have a clue about..


Again it looks like everybody is wrong but you, anybody that can read can tell the difference though.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *The US never signed the Hague convention and is currently using open tip match bullets AKA hollow points in combat.*


I never stated the US "signed" anything, I said "abide by" Declaration #3. The US did ratify the three treaties, but not the three additional declarations. The US has also never ratified Declaration #2, which prohibits the use of projectiles spreading poisonous gas... but that don't mean we ain't abiding by it. And there's a loop hole in the Haque Convention, any and all participants of a conflict must have ratified and/or be abiding by before it is in effect... meaning if the other side ain't abiding, you're not required to.

And hollow points in combat??
The current standard issue round used by the Marine Corps is the M855... which a _full metal jacket bullet_.
The current standard issue round used by the Army is the M855A1... which is the (bu!!$h!t) "environmentally friendly" version of the _full metal jacket bullet_.
Military police are authorized to use hollow point bullets on military installations for law enforcement... _not enemy combat_.
Some special purpose sniper rounds use match-grade bullets (which may be of hollow point design)... there are two arguments used in their defense...
1) Reduction of collateral damage from over penetration.
2) *Match* bullets (even match hollow points) are *not designed* to kill, they are *not designed* to expand, flatten, or otherwise deform inside the human body, they are *designed* to punch tight little groups on paper and nothing else... which, although it is splitting hairs, technically complies with Declaration #3.



bwalker said:


> *I have shot animals with bullets nearly identical to those used in the civil war.. the damage is paltry compared to something like a Berger VLD.*


Your full of crap... yep... that's what I said... full-of-crap.
Anyone who would state they've shot Civil War bullets into flesh and describe the damage as "paltry" compared to a modern jacketed bullet is flat-out making stuff up as he goes.
A traditional 12 gauge shotgun slug does more damage than a VLD... and the slug will disintegrate both shoulders of a large mid-western deer, exit the other side, and continue down range with enough energy remaining to kill a man.
*


----------



## blsnelling

Give it up guys, seriously.


----------



## KenJax Tree

So if i sell my extra like new 550xp here to buy a JRed 2260 which oil and ratio should i use in the 2260?


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> I never stated the US "signed" anything, I said "abide by" Declaration #3. The US did ratify the three treaties, but not the three additional declarations. The US has also never ratified Declaration #2, which prohibits the use of projectiles spreading poisonous gas... but that don't mean we ain't abiding by it. And there's a loop hole in the Haque Convention, any and all participants of a conflict must have ratified and/or be abiding by before it is in effect... meaning if the other side ain't abiding, you're not required to.
> 
> And hollow points in combat??
> The current standard issue round used by the Marine Corps is the M855... which a _full metal jacket bullet_.
> The current standard issue round used by the Army is the M855A1... which is the (bu!!$h!t) "environmentally friendly" version of the _full metal jacket bullet_.
> Military police are authorized to use hollow point bullets on military installations for law enforcement... _not enemy combat_.
> Some special purpose sniper rounds use match-grade bullets (which may be of hollow point design)... there are two arguments used in their defense...
> 1) Reduction of collateral damage from over penetration.
> 2) *Match* bullets (even match hollow points) are *not designed* to kill, they are *not designed* to expand, flatten, or otherwise deform inside the human body, they are *designed* to punch tight little groups on paper and nothing else... which, although it is splitting hairs, technically complies with Declaration #3.
> 
> 
> Your full of crap... yep... that's what I said... full-of-crap.
> Anyone who would state they've shot Civil War bullets into flesh and describe the damage as "paltry" compared to a modern jacketed bullet is flat-out making stuff up as he goes.
> A traditional 12 gauge shotgun slug does more damage than a VLD... and the slug will disintegrate both shoulders of a large mid-western deer, exit the other side, and continue down range with enough energy remaining to kill a man.
> *


You haven't a single clue what your talking about..as usual...


----------



## Deleted member 83629

32:1 chris, it is as easy as Humble PIE.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> I never stated the US "signed" anything, I said "abide by" Declaration #3. The US did ratify the three treaties, but not the three additional declarations. The US has also never ratified Declaration #2, which prohibits the use of projectiles spreading poisonous gas... but that don't mean we ain't abiding by it. And there's a loop hole in the Haque Convention, any and all participants of a conflict must have ratified and/or be abiding by before it is in effect... meaning if the other side ain't abiding, you're not required to.
> 
> And hollow points in combat??
> The current standard issue round used by the Marine Corps is the M855... which a _full metal jacket bullet_.
> The current standard issue round used by the Army is the M855A1... which is the (bu!!$h!t) "environmentally friendly" version of the _full metal jacket bullet_.
> Military police are authorized to use hollow point bullets on military installations for law enforcement... _not enemy combat_.
> Some special purpose sniper rounds use match-grade bullets (which may be of hollow point design)... there are two arguments used in their defense...
> 1) Reduction of collateral damage from over penetration.
> 2) *Match* bullets (even match hollow points) are *not designed* to kill, they are *not designed* to expand, flatten, or otherwise deform inside the human body, they are *designed* to punch tight little groups on paper and nothing else... which, although it is splitting hairs, technically complies with Declaration #3.
> 
> 
> Your full of crap... yep... that's what I said... full-of-crap.
> Anyone who would state they've shot Civil War bullets into flesh and describe the damage as "paltry" compared to a modern jacketed bullet is flat-out making stuff up as he goes.
> A traditional 12 gauge shotgun slug does more damage than a VLD... and the slug will disintegrate both shoulders of a large mid-western deer, exit the other side, and continue down range with enough energy remaining to kill a man.
> *


Btw MK 262, MK 318....etc.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Again it looks like everybody is wrong but you, anybody that can read can tell the difference though.


Wrong is..well wrong.
What people like you like to do is hype the mantra that everything is opinion and everyone's right. Problem is this just isn't true and has never been true.


----------



## tomscott

Ok, I generally prefer to lurk, but... I want to hear some Maxima K2 vs Super M discussion. Since this thread has started I have used up my remaining Stihl HP Ultra and am using K2, but is Super M just as good for saws? I only cut for myself (6 cords a year, firewood guy), so price is not an issue, just want what is best. (Been running 40:1, K2 runs great. If you count the MMO that is in all my gas before I use some to mix, I am at 36:1. No smoke, no bad smells, just good running and cutting.)

Just gimme a little something between the ammo volleys...


----------



## svk

I would love to get into a little bullet discussion with you guys but this isn't the thread for it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

take you up with my kentucky long rifle 75 caliber you can kill trees with it and break a shoulder with it to
belonged to my great grampa its a hell of a rifle.


----------



## bwalker

tomscott said:


> Ok, I generally prefer to lurk, but... I want to hear some Maxima K2 vs Super M discussion. Since this thread has started I have used up my remaining Stihl HP Ultra and am using K2, but is Super M just as good for saws? I only cut for myself (6 cords a year, firewood guy), so price is not an issue, just want what is best. (Been running 40:1, K2 runs great. If you count the MMO that is in all my gas before I use some to mix, I am at 36:1. No smoke, no bad smells, just good running and cutting.)
> 
> Just gimme a little something between the ammo volleys...


If you want to run the best why dicuss super M? K2 is maxima high end product. That said Super is a good product and will work just fine. Get the pre mix version.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> You haven't a single clue what your talking about..as usual...


That doesn't apear to be the case at all, what are you on? Or are you just a wanker?
Thansk


----------



## brockhaskins

tomscott said:


> Ok, I generally prefer to lurk, but... I want to hear some Maxima K2 vs Super M discussion. Since this thread has started I have used up my remaining Stihl HP Ultra and am using K2, but is Super M just as good for saws? I only cut for myself (6 cords a year, firewood guy), so price is not an issue, just want what is best. (Been running 40:1, K2 runs great. If you count the MMO that is in all my gas before I use some to mix, I am at 36:1. No smoke, no bad smells, just good running and cutting.)
> 
> Just gimme a little something between the ammo volleys...


We run super m in about 8 saws burning 5 gal of fuel a week runs great and no problems to speak of.


----------



## tomscott

bwalker said:


> If you want to run the best why dicuss super M? K2 is maxima high end product. That said Super is a good product and will work just fine. Get the pre mix version.



I have been a dedicated lurker, and have read this thread from the beginning. I remember a mention that chainsaws not making the high horsepower per cube of things like karts, therefore, may not burn the fully synthetic clean, or maybe might be better off with something that was a blend. Just part of the discussion I remember, just not dedicated enough to search back for quotes.

So, if the thought is K2 is truly better, I will stick with it. I just wanted to check if there was a thought that maybe Super M would combust more cleanly as a blend vs K2 which is intended for higher hp.



brockhaskins said:


> We run super m in about 8 saws burning 5 gal of fuel a week runs great and no problems to speak of.



Thanks for the feedback. I have no doubt that Super M and many other oils would work just fine, but oil threads push me to want what is best, as cost isn't an issue for the amount I use. 

So far I like the K2, just didn't know if there could be an advantage to the blend (Super M) for saws since they are lower performance than the high end two strokes.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Btw MK 262, MK 318....etc.*


Just as I stated, both the MK262 and MK318 are special purpose, long range sniper rounds... not standard combat issue.
The MK262 is produced by Black Hills Ammunition (a long time, well known fact); here's a quote from Black Hills President Jeff Hoffman...
_“The assaulters were stealing it from the snipers, so we had to make more.”_
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/

In a 2002 report by Shooting Times the explanation of how the hollow point gets around the Haque Convention restrictions...
_"The MK 262 Mod 1 projectile is an open-tipped match (OTM) bullet, though it does not expand in the manner of a conventional hollowpoint. In fact, the hollow cavity *is not there *to induce expansion; it’s there to put the majority of weight towards the projectile’s rear so that it is more stable in flight and increase accuracy. Because *it is not designed to expand* and cause “undue suffering,” that critical phrase in the *Hague Conventions* regarding ammunition, the Navy’s Judge Advocate General Corps approved the round for use in combat. The same reasoning was applied to the Marine Corps 62-grain SOST round (MK 318), also an OTM design."_
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/

I can back-up everything I've stated six-ways from Sunday... so far all you've done is make unsupported claims based on nothing but your own belief in magic. I've even asked you a few questions that you just dance round, or attempt to change the subject, but don't answer... which seems to be your _modus operandi_ whenever your called out. You're the one that tried to make the claim various military made the switch to jacketed bullets in order to obtain higher performance... I simply corrected you're ignorance with historical fact.

But I'm gonna' ask you one more question just to see what happens...
What does special purpose jacketed sniper bullets being more accurate than mass produce jacketed combat rounds (which is entirely expected) have to do with comparing cast bullet accuracy and performance to jacketed hunting bullet accuracy and performance??
And I'll re-ask you one also...
In the .30-06, exactly how much faster can you drive your copper-condomized bullet over the cast bullet??
Hey.. you're the one that labeled me a Luddite and made the (so far) totally unsupported claim...


bwalker said:


> *...I can't drive my fancy copper coated bullets much faster hence the shoot much flatter and kill much more decisivly.*


Your arrogance is unfathomable... you believe everyone should take you at your word... just because it's your word.
Your arrogance blinds you to your own ignorance.




svk said:


> *I would love to get into a little bullet discussion with you guys but this isn't the thread for it.*


OK... I'm done now... my point has been made.
*


----------



## 2dogs

Bwildered said:


> That doesn't apear to be the case at all, what are you on? Or are you just a wanker?
> Thansk


He may be a wanker (I don't know the guy, no offense Walker) but you are a BSer. Your ramblings in the felling thread make me think you feel superior to everyone just because you argue. You have given little to no real world experience because you have none. Maybe you're 14 or 15 years old or maybe you only post during a drinking session but your posts are irrelevant and so are you. Don't bother responding, you are now on ignore


----------



## windthrown

svk said:


> I would love to get into a little bullet discussion with you guys but this isn't the thread for it.


----------



## Justsaws

Oil, guns and the Queen, stuff just got serious. 45/70 serious, more serious than 32:1 by approximately 13!69, better use a full synthetic cause it about to get HR1'ed in here. 

Pretty sure we just learned that more weight in the rear makes stuff more stable, certain members just got interested in oil threads again.


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> Just as I stated, both the MK262 and MK318 are special purpose, long range sniper rounds... not standard combat issue.
> The MK262 is produced by Black Hills Ammunition (a long time, well known fact); here's a quote from Black Hills President Jeff Hoffman...
> _“The assaulters were stealing it from the snipers, so we had to make more.”_
> http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
> 
> In a 2002 report by Shooting Times the explanation of how the hollow point gets around the Haque Convention restrictions...
> _"The MK 262 Mod 1 projectile is an open-tipped match (OTM) bullet, though it does not expand in the manner of a conventional hollowpoint. In fact, the hollow cavity *is not there *to induce expansion; it’s there to put the majority of weight towards the projectile’s rear so that it is more stable in flight and increase accuracy. Because *it is not designed to expand* and cause “undue suffering,” that critical phrase in the *Hague Conventions* regarding ammunition, the Navy’s Judge Advocate General Corps approved the round for use in combat. The same reasoning was applied to the Marine Corps 62-grain SOST round (MK 318), also an OTM design."_
> http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
> 
> I can back-up everything I've stated six-ways from Sunday... so far all you've done is make unsupported claims based on nothing but your own belief in magic. I've even asked you a few questions that you just dance round, or attempt to change the subject, but don't answer... which seems to be your _modus operandi_ whenever your called out. You're the one that tried to make the claim various military made the switch to jacketed bullets in order to obtain higher performance... I simply corrected you're ignorance with historical fact.
> 
> But I'm gonna' ask you one more question just to see what happens...
> What does special purpose jacketed sniper bullets being more accurate than mass produce jacketed combat rounds (which is entirely expected) have to do with comparing cast bullet accuracy and performance to jacketed hunting bullet accuracy and performance??
> And I'll re-ask you one also...
> In the .30-06, exactly how much faster can you drive your copper-condomized bullet over the cast bullet??
> Hey.. you're the one that labeled me a Luddite and made the (so far) totally unsupported claim...
> 
> Your arrogance is unfathomable... you believe everyone should take you at your word... just because it's your word.
> Your arrogance blinds you to your own ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> OK... I'm done now... my point has been made.
> *


Your stupidity is unfathomable...keep googling.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> That doesn't apear to be the case at all, what are you on? Or are you just a wanker?
> Thansk


Maybe to someone without a clue such as your self. To someone knowledgeable it's pretty apparent Whitespider is the king of google..


----------



## snoozeys

This thread has seriously lost its way

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## KG441c




----------



## gunnusmc03

We need some people here to seriously pull their lips up over their head and swallow.


----------



## Bwildered

2dogs said:


> He may be a wanker (I don't know the guy, no offense Walker) but you are a BSer. Your ramblings in the felling thread make me think you feel superior to everyone just because you argue. You have given little to no real world experience because you have none. Maybe you're 14 or 15 years old or maybe you only post during a drinking session but your posts are irrelevant and so are you. Don't bother responding, you are now on ignore


Are you a 16:1 user who thinks they can impossibly defeat gravity & swing a tree 180' from the lean with a soft dutchman then ? If that is the case then your response is perfectly understandable.
Thansk


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Your stupidity is unfathomable...keep googling.*





bwalker said:


> *To someone knowledgeable it's pretty apparent Whitespider is the king of google..*


_Modus operandi_.
*


----------



## redbull660

mdavlee said:


> Any time difference? I'm at work and can't watch without stopping to buffer.



ok times im getting are...
h1r 45:1 - 
5.5
5.5
13.0
12.7

800 off road 45:1
5.8
5.7
12.7
12.5

I think larger wood, would show more difference. Had to pull 14hrs yesterday, but today is looking good so might be able to try motul 800 45:1 vs motul 800 32:1 for time only. Don't have the heat gun right now.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Maybe to someone without a clue such as your self. To someone knowledgeable it's pretty apparent Whitespider is the king of google..


And you aren't! LOL after this last page of dribble of you arguing black is white my comment was of genuine concern!


----------



## svk

Guys, enough of the arguing. Please try to keep this on topic.


----------



## Bwildered

Whitespider said:


> Just as I stated, both the MK262 and MK318 are special purpose, long range sniper rounds... not standard combat issue.
> The MK262 is produced by Black Hills Ammunition (a long time, well known fact); here's a quote from Black Hills President Jeff Hoffman...
> _“The assaulters were stealing it from the snipers, so we had to make more.”_
> http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
> 
> In a 2002 report by Shooting Times the explanation of how the hollow point gets around the Haque Convention restrictions...
> _"The MK 262 Mod 1 projectile is an open-tipped match (OTM) bullet, though it does not expand in the manner of a conventional hollowpoint. In fact, the hollow cavity *is not there *to induce expansion; it’s there to put the majority of weight towards the projectile’s rear so that it is more stable in flight and increase accuracy. Because *it is not designed to expand* and cause “undue suffering,” that critical phrase in the *Hague Conventions* regarding ammunition, the Navy’s Judge Advocate General Corps approved the round for use in combat. The same reasoning was applied to the Marine Corps 62-grain SOST round (MK 318), also an OTM design."_
> http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
> 
> I can back-up everything I've stated six-ways from Sunday... so far all you've done is make unsupported claims based on nothing but your own belief in magic. I've even asked you a few questions that you just dance round, or attempt to change the subject, but don't answer... which seems to be your _modus operandi_ whenever your called out. You're the one that tried to make the claim various military made the switch to jacketed bullets in order to obtain higher performance... I simply corrected you're ignorance with historical fact.
> 
> But I'm gonna' ask you one more question just to see what happens...
> What does special purpose jacketed sniper bullets being more accurate than mass produce jacketed combat rounds (which is entirely expected) have to do with comparing cast bullet accuracy and performance to jacketed hunting bullet accuracy and performance??
> And I'll re-ask you one also...
> In the .30-06, exactly how much faster can you drive your copper-condomized bullet over the cast bullet??
> Hey.. you're the one that labeled me a Luddite and made the (so far) totally unsupported claim...
> 
> Your arrogance is unfathomable... you believe everyone should take you at your word... just because it's your word.
> Your arrogance blinds you to your own ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> OK... I'm done now... my point has been made.
> *


Well said.
thansk


----------



## mdavlee

I may give super M a try. I didn't want to bu ,a half gallon last time I was in the bike shop. They should have some more stuff in by now.


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> ok times im getting are...
> h1r 45:1 -
> 5.5
> 5.5
> 13.0
> 12.7
> 
> 800 off road 45:1
> 5.8
> 5.7
> 12.7
> 12.5
> 
> I think larger wood, would show more difference. Had to pull 14hrs yesterday, but today is looking good so might be able to try motul 800 45:1 vs motul 800 32:1 for time only. Don't have the heat gun right now.


Good work! I applaud your testing & depth of character to actually do, test & produce something of substance.
Thansk


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> ok times im getting are...
> h1r 45:1 -
> 5.5
> 5.5
> 13.0
> 12.7
> 
> 800 off road 45:1
> 5.8
> 5.7
> 12.7
> 12.5
> 
> I think larger wood, would show more difference. Had to pull 14hrs yesterday, but today is looking good so might be able to try motul 800 45:1 vs motul 800 32:1 for time only. Don't have the heat gun right now.


For all intents and purposes, those times are the same, well within the margin of error. I'm much more interest to see the 800 32:1 times.


----------



## Trx250r180

this 2t appears to have dye ?


----------



## Trx250r180

http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/oil-2T/2-cycle_lubes.pdf
Snowmobile article explaining about 2t


----------



## NWCoaster

OK, in the interest of getting it back to oil related stuff and keeping things brief........ I am really liking the K2 at 40:1 in my chainsaws and other 2 stroke equipment. Seems to run really clean with very little smoke and smell. I swear that all my stuff idles and spools up better, and just plain runs better with it. I Could be in error, but my seat of the pants opinion is that it is the Cats arse.
My search for a better oil over the Stihl Ultra and Lucas ( Both of which worked quite well by the way) is over. I see no point in trying anything else at this point. This stuff is awesome. 
The End.


----------



## NWCoaster

Trx250r180 said:


> this 2t appears to have dye ?


 Well yeah..... it says what color it is right on the label!!


----------



## hardpan

Have you tried K2 at 32:1?


----------



## GASoline71

Man... I've been gone for too long. 

Gary


----------



## Trx250r180

GASoline71 said:


> Man... I've been gone for too long.
> 
> Gary


Well we all know your favorite


----------



## GASoline71

LOL...

Gary


----------



## brockhaskins

NWCoaster said:


> OK, in the interest of getting it back oil related stuff and keeping things brief........ I am really liking the K2 at 40:1 in my chainsaws and other 2 stroke equipment. Seems to run really clean with very little smoke and smell. I swear that all my stuff idles and spools up better, and just plain runs better with it. I Could be in error, but my seat of the pants opinion is that it is the Cats arse.
> My search for a better oil over the Stihl Ultra and Lucas ( Both of which worked quite well by the way) is over. I see no point in trying anything else at this point. This stuff is awesome.
> The End.


I noticed the same thing switching from lucas to super m. Thought maybe it was just me but other guys on the crew noticed as well. Just seems to have better throttle response.


----------



## NWCoaster

hardpan said:


> Have you tried K2 at 32:1?


 I have not, but I think some other people on here run it at that ratio and get good results as far as I can remember.... ( which seems to be less all the time)


----------



## NWCoaster

brockhaskins said:


> I noticed the same thing switching from lucas to super m. Thought maybe it was just me but other guys on the crew noticed as well. Just seems to have better throttle response.


 I'll definately keep the Super M in mind if I ever get a wild hair to try something new again, thanks


----------



## KenJax Tree

Super M is 50/50 K2 and mineral oil. Its half the price of K2


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> Super M is 50/50 K2 and mineral oil. Its half the price of K2


 Very Interesting. Sounds like a good soloution if a guy wanted to save some money. The K2 is a bit expensive, especially if you run a lot of oil. I dont really use that much, weekend warrior duty pretty much.


----------



## KenJax Tree

NWCoaster said:


> Very Interesting. Sounds like a good soloution if a guy wanted to save some money. The K2 is a bit expensive, especially if you run a lot of oil. I dont really use that much, weekend warrior duty pretty much.


Here is an email i got from Maxima


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> Here is an email i got from Maxima


 Wow, thats pretty cool. Good information.


----------



## windthrown

GASoline71 said:


> Man... I've been gone for too long.
> 
> Gary




The oil thread king returns!


----------



## NWCoaster

windthrown said:


> View attachment 432546
> The oil thread king returns! View attachment 432546
> 
> 
> View attachment 432548


I have heard of this product..... I suppose it is a proprietary formula and can't be purchased....... Lol.


----------



## windthrown

NWCoaster said:


> I have heard of this product..... I suppose it is a proprietary formula and can't be purchased....... Lol.



Not so! You too can become a GaryWay distributor! It is a multi-multi level direct marketing company. All you have to do is purchase 1,200 quarts (100 cases) of Gary GOO (Gary's Own brand Oil) and sell it like it is going out of style. The only restriction is that you must be in a region that does not already have a GaryWay distributor within 1/2 mile. Be the first one on your block to become a GaryWay distributor!


----------



## NWCoaster

OH SH*$........ I WANT to be a Gary Way distributor.... whatever it takes. How much is a case??? Do you have to have Gary Way parties or is that optional?? What other merchandise do they have??
Do they have different types of plastic wear to store your oil bottles in?? ( Think Uncle Rico.....) 
( I really like that it is a hair product also.....them girls upriver are gonna SWOON!!)


----------



## snoozeys

I cant even find a website for garys

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## Trx250r180

snoozeys said:


> I cant even find a website for garys
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


That oil is a hoax someone made up in one of the greatest oil threads of all time ,you won't find a site for it .


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Here is an email i got from Maxima


Super M isn't 50% K2. It appears they use different base oils.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> this 2t appears to have dye ?


Avoid it like the plague...


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> I have not, but I think some other people on here run it at that ratio and get good results as far as I can remember.... ( which seems to be less all the time)


I have, it works great at 32:1 and lower.


----------



## Mastermind

Y'all are all still pontificating I see.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> Y'all are all still pontificating I see.


Still using 2R?


----------



## N8TE

Had to look that one up..lol


pon·tif·i·cate
_verb_
gerund or present participle: *pontificating*
pänˈtifiˌkāt/

*1*.
(in the Roman Catholic Church) officiate as bishop, especially at Mass.
*2*.
express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic.


----------



## Mastermind

bwalker said:


> Still using 2R?



I am. On my third quart.


----------



## KG441c

Mastermind said:


> I am. On my third quart.


Opinion ???


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> I am. On my third quart.


 you must cut a lot of wood


----------



## Mastermind

KG441c said:


> Opinion ???



Very, very good oil. Clean burning, nearly no smell, and it tunes as it should. I can't believe I handicapped my saws with the Belray H1R, but that is how it seems. With the 2R in Jon's 562XP, it's like the saw found a whole new level of performance......


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> Very, very good oil. Clean burning, nearly no smell, and it tunes as it should. I can't believe I handicapped my saws with the Belray H1R, but that is how it seems. With the 2R in Jon's 562XP, it's like the saw found a whole new level of performance......



Have you sampled that other stuff yet ?


----------



## hardpan

2r. Always looking for improvement and this one comes cheap. 32:1?


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> Have you sampled that other stuff yet ?



No Brian, I want to just run this 2R for a few months. That's the best way for me to really decide if I like a certain oil. If I switch around too much I'll never be able to give a fair evaluation. 



hardpan said:


> 2r. Always looking for improvement and this one comes cheap. 32:1?



Don't take my word for anything. I recommended H1R because it protected well, I didn't realize it was holding back some saws. Even our MS150T runs much better on 2R.


----------



## hardpan

Mastermind said:


> No Brian, I want to just run this 2R for a few months. That's the best way for me to really decide if I like a certain oil. If I switch around too much I'll never be able to give a fair evaluation.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take my word for anything. I recommended H1R because it protected well, I didn't realize it was holding back some saws. Even our MS150T runs much better on 2R.



I used H1R on your preference. Now eyes were opened on this mammoth thread, opinions changed, and we are all better for it. It's all good. How's that go, "We have to break a few eggs to make an omelet."


----------



## redbull660

Well I've been running 45:1 Motul 800 off road and my saw hasn't blown up yet...

Ran it with the 41" and 36" bar. No issues. Still think it comes down to oil make up.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/661-36-vs-41-cannon-bar-video.282053/


http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/661-with-41-cannon-super-bar-video.282024/


Hoping to do some timed cuts between 800 45:1 and 800 32:1 either tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## mdavlee

Motul is good stuff. I've burnt 2 liters of it since last summer. All the way down to 25:1 and never less than about 32:1. K2 is about the same and I'm on the 2nd liter of it. I guess the next will be some Mobil 2t.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Well I've been running 45:1 Motul 800 off road and my saw hasn't blown up yet...
> 
> Ran it with the 41" and 36" bar. No issues. Still think it comes down to oil make up.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/661-36-vs-41-cannon-bar-video.282053/
> 
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/661-with-41-cannon-super-bar-video.282024/
> 
> 
> Hoping to do some timed cuts between 800 45:1 and 800 32:1 either tonight or tomorrow.


Red, what do you mean by makeup?


----------



## redbull660

ok boyz... I'm gearing up for the oil test. Need to raise some cash to buy the carbide chains, so I'm selling some stuff...

If you want to pitch in, pitch in by taking this stuff off my hands. Prices are more than fair.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/tsumura-bars-stihl-chains.282203/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-441-20-b-c.282074/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-661.282073/ Got 1 to many.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-stihl-461-25-bar-chain.282072/


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> ok boyz... I'm gearing up for the oil test. Need to raise some cash to buy the carbide chains, so I'm selling some stuff...
> 
> If you want to pitch in, pitch in by taking this stuff off my hands. Prices are more than fair.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/tsumura-bars-stihl-chains.282203/
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-441-20-b-c.282074/
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-661.282073/ Got 1 to many.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-stihl-461-25-bar-chain.282072/


I am at a loss to understand why a new chain is needed for each test, it seems to be like putting on a new set of tyres on a test car each lap & that isn't done.
Thansk


----------



## nitehawk55

I would think a couple strokes with a file each time would be good enough . That is if you know how to hand file


----------



## snoozeys

Trx250r180 said:


> That oil is a hoax someone made up in one of the greatest oil threads of all time ,you won't find a site for it .


I'm an idiot 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## redbull660

Bwildered said:


> I am at a loss to understand why a new chain is needed for each test, it seems to be like putting on a new set of tyres on a test car each lap & that isn't done.
> Thansk



Tested it. It does make a difference and if you are going through all the hassle of buying the bars, the gas, the oil, finding the wood, prepping the wood, taking the time....it's the only way to be sure. But for the oil test im just going with carbides. 

Assuming the new carbide cuts well. I gotta test it first.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I am at a loss to understand why a new chain is needed for each test, it seems to be like putting on a new set of tyres on a test car each lap & that isn't done.
> Thansk


I'd just touch up the chain for each run in a consistent manner and be done with it. And why carbide?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Tested it. It does make a difference and if you are going through all the hassle of buying the bars, the gas, the oil, finding the wood, prepping the wood, taking the time....it's the only way to be sure. But for the oil test im just going with carbides.
> 
> Assuming the new carbide cuts well. I gotta test it first.


I think you will find carbide is pretty slow cutting stuff.


----------



## redbull660

RD was so so. the new replacement RD3 in 3/8ths size chain is quite a bit faster. Tooth design is completely different now. RD is no longer available. 

Carbide isn't going to change like regular chain can and does affect the times. Only problem I might encounter is RD3 only comes as a safety style chain with the humps on the dl's. 

Main thing is I want to be absolutely sure so I do this testing stuff with as much military precision as I can. The worst thing that could happen is to question the test. Then I just wasted a lot of time and wood. Finding good wood and getting it ready is a chore.


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> Tested it. It does make a difference and if you are going through all the hassle of buying the bars, the gas, the oil, finding the wood, prepping the wood, taking the time....it's the only way to be sure. But for the oil test im just going with carbides.
> 
> Assuming the new carbide cuts well. I gotta test it first.


I would have thought just touching up the chain on a decent grinder after each test cut would have been sufficient, then going through the the different ratios, then coming back through the ratios to the start point again, that would average out any tooth length differences from the grinding.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> RD was so so. the new replacement RD3 in 3/8ths size chain is quite a bit faster. Tooth design is completely different now. RD is no longer available.
> 
> Carbide isn't going to change like regular chain can and does affect the times. Only problem I might encounter is RD3 only comes as a safety style chain with the humps on the dl's.
> 
> Main thing is I want to be absolutely sure so I do this testing stuff with as much military precision as I can. The worst thing that could happen is to question the test. Then I just wasted a lot of time and wood. Finding good wood and getting it ready is a chore.


Its very tough to do testing like this even with a dyno. How big will your sample size be?


----------



## porsche965

I'm enjoying this civility between parties now. Much better content.


----------



## Bwildered

porsche965 said:


> I'm enjoying this civility between parties now. Much better content.


That's the bonus of a round table discussion, instead of the more traditional one where someone tries to sit at the head of the table with traditional views & beliefs.
Thansk


----------



## 2dogs

porsche965 said:


> I'm enjoying this civility between parties now. Much better content.


"I have a potty mouth"!


----------



## NWCoaster

Mastermind said:


> No Brian, I want to just run this 2R for a few months. That's the best way for me to really decide if I like a certain oil. If I switch around too much I'll never be able to give a fair evaluation.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take my word for anything. I recommended H1R because it protected well, I didn't realize it was holding back some saws. Even our MS150T runs much better on 2R.


So much for this being another one of those useless oil threads as some people say. If you read between the gobbitygook BS, there is a bunch of good information being thrown around. Made me try some things I wouldn't have before. Glad this thread was started and hope it keeps going in a productive manner Oh yeah, I agree.... "I have a potty mouth" and have a nice day!!


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> So much for this being another one of those useless oil threads as some people say. If you read between the gobbitygook BS, there is a bunch of good information being thrown around. Made me try some things I wouldn't have before. Glad this thread was started and hope it keeps going in a productive manner Oh yeah, I agree.... "I have a potty mouth" and have a nice day!!


Yea, like use 2R...I through that out there 100 pages back..


----------



## redbull660

Looking for 36" bar type wood. I've got a nice concentric piece of maple lined up for the first oil I choose to do. Might be able to get two oil's done on it. We'll see.

Going with the 36" cannon bar and 114dl long carbide. Taking the spikes off the saw so I can't dawg in. 2 cuts on one end and 1 cut on the other end. If the cuts are that long it'll really show up on the heat and possibly time. So I'll do 1 cut on one end and then two cuts on the other end. Then take temps.

I'm talking to a tree service about an hr from here...sounds like they might have just what i'm looking for.

Brad generously offered to port the saw for me. So the tests will be run with a ported saw...which should generate more heat. Furthermore, I've agreed to send the saw first to Chad to run on his dyno in stock config, then with my muffler mod config, then the saw goes to brad to get ported, then back to Chad to check gains, then back to me.

Couple of little tests I gotta take care of before this happens. Some other details to be worked out. It's all coming together. But I've really gotta sell some stuff and raise some cash.


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> Yea, like use 2R...I through that out there 100 pages back..


Well c'mon.... you just need to speak up more and ASSERT yourself...........


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> Looking for 36" bar type wood. I've got a nice concentric piece of maple lined up for the first oil I choose to do. Might be able to get two oil's done on it. We'll see.
> 
> Going with the 36" cannon bar and 114dl long carbide. Taking the spikes off the saw so I can't dawg in. 2 cuts on one end and 1 cut on the other end. If the cuts are that long it'll really show up on the heat and possibly time. So I'll do 1 cut on one end and then two cuts on the other end. Then take temps.
> 
> I'm talking to a tree service about an hr from here...sounds like they might have just what i'm looking for.
> 
> Brad generously offered to port the saw for me. So the tests will be run with a ported saw...which should generate more heat. Furthermore, I've agreed to send the saw first to Chad to run on his dyno in stock config, then with my muffler mod config, then the saw goes to brad to get ported, then back to Chad to check gains, then back to me.
> 
> Couple of little tests I gotta take care of before this happens. Some other details to be worked out. It's all coming together. But I've really gotta sell some stuff and raise some cash.


I takes my hat off to you.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Well c'mon.... you just need to speak up more and ASSERT yourself...........


It's almost of no use when guys have their minds set on spending more money for a lesser product..


----------



## porsche965

2dogs said:


> "I have a potty mouth"!



Typical lol


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've been using Honda HP2 lately


----------



## windthrown

We need more oil on these threads!



Anal floss...


----------



## NWCoaster

windthrown said:


> We need more oil on these threads!
> 
> View attachment 432730
> 
> Anal floss, that is...


Wow!.... that's some high quality electrical tape on the one gal.... still sticking after all that oilyness. Makes me wonder if it could be a GaryWay product???????


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> Looking for 36" bar type wood. I've got a nice concentric piece of maple lined up for the first oil I choose to do. Might be able to get two oil's done on it. We'll see.
> 
> Going with the 36" cannon bar and 114dl long carbide. Taking the spikes off the saw so I can't dawg in. 2 cuts on one end and 1 cut on the other end. If the cuts are that long it'll really show up on the heat and possibly time. So I'll do 1 cut on one end and then two cuts on the other end. Then take temps.
> 
> I'm talking to a tree service about an hr from here...sounds like they might have just what i'm looking for.
> 
> Brad generously offered to port the saw for me. So the tests will be run with a ported saw...which should generate more heat. Furthermore, I've agreed to send the saw first to Chad to run on his dyno in stock config, then with my muffler mod config, then the saw goes to brad to get ported, then back to Chad to check gains, then back to me.
> 
> Couple of little tests I gotta take care of before this happens. Some other details to be worked out. It's all coming together. But I've really gotta sell some stuff and raise some cash.



Are the oils going to be tested on the dyno? In my experience the bigger the test wood the harder it is to get consistent times. If the saws are going to Chad anyway, whey not just run them on the dyno? That way chain and test wood abnormalities are eliminated. 

I know all the work you're putting in is substantial. My advice to you, is to take your time and make sure things are right before you post the data. You know we'll all be looking for all the holes, that's what we do.

Running a chain on a grinder or filing the chain can and will change how the chain cuts. It's best to use the same chain or chain off the same spool.


----------



## snoozeys

Im probably wrong but wont you need a new chain on every run to eliminate any changed in the chain 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> Are the oils going to be tested on the dyno? In my experience the bigger the test wood the harder it is to get consistent times. If the saws are going to Chad anyway, whey not just run them on the dyno? That way chain and test wood abnormalities are eliminated.
> 
> I know all the work you're putting in is substantial. My advice to you, is to take your time and make sure things are right before you post the data. You know we'll all be looking for all the holes, that's what we do.
> 
> Running a chain on a grinder or filing the chain can and will change how the chain cuts. It's best to use the same chain or chain off the same spool.



diff oils on dyno - no, not that i know of. I don't know where Chad is located but guessing it's a ways from where I am.

consistent time big wood - I've not had that problem. But I am considering going to 28" instead of 36". It would make finding wood easier and I could do more cuts and generate more heat..maybe.

I have a test I still have to do to try and gauge how much heat is generated at each bar length. So I was going to do a test: 20 vs 24 vs 28 vs 30 vs 36" in the same logs and take temps and see if shorter or longer bars make more heat on the 661. Pretty sure they do from what I've seen.

I plan on using 1 carbide chain for each oil test. The 10 or so cuts I do isn't going to dull a carbide at all and thus affect the times where a regular chain it's much much more possible. I've gotta see how the stuff cuts first though...since it's safety chain. If it doesn't cut right. Then I'll go to a 28" .404 RS setup and do 1 chain per ratio.

Granted a regular chain may only change by maybee 1 second over 10-15 cuts. But I don't want that variance at all. The time it takes to do this test...isn't worth cutting a corner like that.


----------



## mdavlee

Chad is in PA.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Are the oils going to be tested on the dyno? In my experience the bigger the test wood the harder it is to get consistent times. If the saws are going to Chad anyway, whey not just run them on the dyno? That way chain and test wood abnormalities are eliminated.
> 
> I know all the work you're putting in is substantial. My advice to you, is to take your time and make sure things are right before you post the data. You know we'll all be looking for all the holes, that's what we do.
> 
> Running a chain on a grinder or filing the chain can and will change how the chain cuts. It's best to use the same chain or chain off the same spool.


The dyno opens up a whole new set of variables, but I would think the results would be many times better than a human operator running a saw in variable material. Might save Redbull a considerable amount of money.


----------



## mdavlee

I wonder what Madsens charges for dyno time?


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> I wonder what Madsens charges for dyno time?


Probably alot less than all the chain costs


----------



## redbull660

It's nice to see if there would be a horse power difference, but it isn't everything. As I recall the 461's HP was almost higher than the 660's HP on chad's dyno. Yet in every test I did between them stock and muffler modded with 20 24 28 32" bars the 660 beat the 461. EVERY TIME usually by a fair amount. ie. NOT a slim margin.


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> It's nice to see if there would be a horse power difference, but it isn't everything. As I recall the 461's HP was almost higher than the 660's HP on chad's dyno. Yet in every test I did between them stock and muffler modded with 20 24 28 32" bars the 660 beat the 461. EVERY TIME usually by a fair amount. ie. NOT a slim margin.


It's sounds a bit like formula 1 testing , with all the millions of $ & time they have to develop & test engines & cars on dynos they are only permitted a few days on the track for testing outside the season, the real world testing where all the variables are is where the proof of the pudding comes out.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> It's nice to see if there would be a horse power difference, but it isn't everything. As I recall the 461's HP was almost higher than the 660's HP on chad's dyno. Yet in every test I did between them stock and muffler modded with 20 24 28 32" bars the 660 beat the 461. EVERY TIME usually by a fair amount. ie. NOT a slim margin.


I'd say that particular dyno result is suspect then, which is no supprise. An accurate dyno is very uncommon, unless your one of the automotive OEM'S or some such. And just as important as the dyno itself is the operator.


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> I'd say that particular dyno result is suspect then, which is no supprise. An accurate dyno is very uncommon, unless your one of the automotive OEM'S or some such. And just as important as the dyno itself is the operator.


I wonder if Stihl would have any information or testing on the effect of the different types of oil at different mix ratios.... not that they would probably divulge that kind of information.... they have a super fancy computer controlled dyno there in the facility in VB. Have you guys ever watched the video of them playing silent night on the Dyno with a chainsaw? Pretty cool.  Looks like they have a s-load of dynos!!


----------



## NWCoaster

Here is the video;


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> It's nice to see if there would be a horse power difference, but it isn't everything. As I recall the 461's HP was almost higher than the 660's HP on chad's dyno. Yet in every test I did between them stock and muffler modded with 20 24 28 32" bars the 660 beat the 461. EVERY TIME usually by a fair amount. ie. NOT a slim margin.


I take it that you haven't run one of my 461s. Besides, ported is an entirely different ballgame.


----------



## big t double

blsnelling said:


> I take it that you haven't run one of my 461s. Besides, ported is an entirely different ballgame.


ive heard through a grapevine that those things are pretty nasty when you get through with em.


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> All my saws seem happy with 40:1, I see no reason to change. It is like using a 165 gr bullet in a 30-06 while some argue for 180 gr and others argue for 150 gr. My ballistic testing showed that bullet construction is more important than wt, so I actually use a 168 gr Barnes.


 True but heavier aerodynamic bullets will have a higher sectional density (more penetration) and also a higher ballistic coefficient (B.C.) - (sustain higher velocities for longer shots). I like an extra advantage, more oil and higher B.C.'s, when you need it. But I agree a 40:1 oil ratio or a 165 gr. 308 diameter bullet will accomplish most of your demands.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Anyone use Berger 185gr in a Win. .308 for hunting or would the Berger 168 be better. Around my neck of the woods a shot to 500yds would be very rare and would be clearcut or pipeline/highline shots. Most shots typically within 250yds


 To heavy unless you have the right barrel twist.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Barnes are great for shooting an animal in the vitals and having it run off like nothing happened. Especially in a 30 ought 6.


I've had extremely good luck with Barnes TSX 160's in a custom 7STW. I've never had one run over 60 yds. That was shot at 416yds trailing two does. The bullet entered behind the rib cage (angled from me) and exited his opposite shoulder. Nice 7pt. Swift sirocco's also always exit but leave a great blood trail. I've had several drop using TSX's and Sirocco's.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> To heavy unless you have the right barrel twist.


1:11 will do to 190. 1:10 works to 240 grain in a 30 cal.

32:1 FTW


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 1:11 will do to 190. 1:10 works to 240 grain in a 30 cal.
> 
> 32:1 FTW


My 5r is 1:11.2 twist I think


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I've had extremely good luck with Barnes TSX 160's in a custom 7STW. I've never had one run over 60 yds. That was shot at 416yds trailing two does. The bullet entered behind the rib cage (angled from me) and exited his opposite shoulder. Nice 7pt. Swift sirocco's also always exit but leave a great blood trail. I've had several drop using TSX's and Sirocco's.


The elk I shot last year with a 180 TTSX out of a 300 rum wasn't impressed at all and it was shot at extremely close range with a the shoulder joint being exploded on entry.
There is no magic when it comes to bullet performance. Bullets that fragment some kill much faster, bullets with a wider frontal area kill faster. The Barnes doesn't fragment and had a narrow frontal area. Great for digging deap, but not so great for killing quickly.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> 1:11 will do to 190. 1:10 works to 240 grain in a 30 cal.
> 
> 32:1 FTW


That would depend on velocity,altitude and temp.
At 308 velocity I would think 1:11 woukdnt be the best choice. Especially in a hunting situation where a little extra stability is a good thing for straight penetration.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> That would depend on velocity,altitude and temp.
> At 308 velocity I would think 1:11 woukdnt be the best choice. Especially in a hunting situation where a little extra stability is a good thing for straight penetration.


Wonder why snipers in the military like the 1:11.2 in the m24?


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> The elk I shot last year with a 180 TTSX out of a 300 rum wasn't impressed at all and it was shot at extremely close range with a the shoulder joint being exploded on entry.
> There is no magic when it comes to bullet performance. Bullets that fragment some kill much faster, bullets with a wider frontal area kill faster. The Barnes doesn't fragment and had a narrow frontal area. Great for digging deap, but not so great for killing quickly.


I used my 338RUM on a couple elk and a couple deer. 250gr swift Aframe are nicknamed "special non-tracking bullets" in deer camp. So far, one has yet to move post shot lol


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Wonder why snipers in the military like the 1:11.2 in the m24?


They use 175 grain a lot now. The 300 win mag uses 190 grain.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Wonder why snipers in the military like the 1:11.2 in the m24?


Humans are easy to kill and straight line penetration isn't as much of an issue, ditto with expansion as they are using Sierra Match kings which come unhinged more pretty easy. Plus there is the thought amongst certain people that the least amount of twist possible produces the most accuracy.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> They use 175 grain a lot now. The 300 win mag uses 190 grain.


The m24 a2 is a 300 win mag.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I used my 338RUM on a couple elk and a couple deer. 250gr swift Aframe are nicknamed "special non-tracking bullets" in deer camp. So far, one has yet to move post shot lol


The 165 a frame out of a 300 win mag is pretty decisive and if they run you typically will have a blood trail, which IME with a Barnes you will not.
Barnes have their place. IE using something like a 243 or 25-06 elk as they will shoot through both sides.


----------



## mdavlee

The berger VLD and Amax are both pretty deadly for deer. My neighbor has taken them to 600 yards with each. One was a doe with the 338 and the other came put a 6.5-284.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> The berger VLD and Amax are both pretty deadly for deer. My neighbor has taken them to 600 yards with each. One was a doe with the 338 and the other came put a 6.5-284.


Don't know about the amax, but the VLD is death and destruction like nothing I have seen.
Of course Whitespider will come along and say cast bullets kill as well...pure bs!


----------



## MustangMike

Velocity and Bullet profile will determine the rate of twist needed. A round nose bullet will stabilize with a lot less twist than a spitzter. I don't think you will stabilize a 240 gr bullet (sptizter boattail) with 1 in 10 twist at 308 velocity.

The 244 Rem w/1 in 12 twist was not good at stabilizing 100 gr bullets.

Re the Barnes bullets: They usually penetrate & kill very well because they form 4 petals that spin with the rifling (instead of a full mushroom) that cut the arteries, but I can understand that if you strike heavy bone that removes the petals they will kill more slowly, but they will still kill and are one of the most dependable bullets out there. All bullets will have +/- depending on the situation.

Usually when you strike bone, the fragmented bone aids in the killing, but it will depend on the angle, etc, etc.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Don't know about the amax, but the VLD is death and destruction like nothing I have seen.
> Of course Whitespider will come along and say cast bullets kill as well...pure bs!


The Amax made a nice exit wound as well. Better than I thought it would. 

240 grain isn't made for the 308. The 300 RUM and Norma shoot them well at higher velocities.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> My 5r is 1:11.2 twist I think


 I'd stay with 168 and under.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The elk I shot last year with a 180 TTSX out of a 300 rum wasn't impressed at all and it was shot at extremely close range with a the shoulder joint being exploded on entry.
> There is no magic when it comes to bullet performance. Bullets that fragment some kill much faster, bullets with a wider frontal area kill faster. The Barnes doesn't fragment and had a narrow frontal area. Great for digging deap, but not so great for killing quickly.


 Like most deer I've shot, some run and some drop. Doesn't matter if it's TSX's, Sirocco's, or ballistic tips. I'll soon be experimenting with Berger VLD's in my STW and 264 mag. I have H1000 and Retumbo to try also.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> My 5r is 1:11.2 twist I think


 My Springfield Armory M1A was 1:11. It liked 165 ballistic tips.


----------



## MustangMike

Usually it is based on shot placement. If you take out a shoulder or two, the deer will often drop, but if you have a good clean heart/lung shot, right in back of the shoulder (the shot I prefer), the deer will usually run some, but you will eat more meat.


----------



## Ron660

If I'm going to be toking a bull-barreled heavy rifle it's not going to be in a 308. It's going to be at least a .264 diameter or larger going over 3000 fps. Carrying a heavy barreled 308, to me, is like carrying the weight of a 660 with a 40cc engine in it besides a 90cc engine.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Like most deer I've shot, some run and some drop. Doesn't matter if it's TSX's, Sirocco's, or ballistic tips. I'll soon be experimenting with Berger VLD's in my STW and 264 mag. I have H1000 and Retumbo to try also.


Yes, bit I am not talking about annihilated incident. The 25 cal Barnes have been really problematic.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> If I'm going to be toking a bull-barreled heavy rifle it's not going to be in a 308. It's going to be at least a .264 diameter or larger going over 3000 fps. Carrying a heavy barreled 308, to me, is like carrying the weight of a 660 with a 40cc engine in it besides a 90cc engine.


308 case is better suited to 6mm,6.5mm and 7mm bullets IMO.
And I see about zero use for a bull barreled rifle besides target shooting and high volume varmint hunting.


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Velocity and Bullet profile will determine the rate of twist needed. A round nose bullet will stabilize with a lot less twist than a spitzter. I don't think you will stabilize a 240 gr bullet (sptizter boattail) with 1 in 10 twist at 308 velocity.
> 
> The 244 Rem w/1 in 12 twist was not good at stabilizing 100 gr bullets.
> 
> Re the Barnes bullets: They usually penetrate & kill very well because they form 4 petals that spin with the rifling (instead of a full mushroom) that cut the arteries, but I can understand that if you strike heavy bone that removes the petals they will kill more slowly, but they will still kill and are one of the most dependable bullets out there. All bullets will have +/- depending on the situation.
> 
> Usually when you strike bone, the fragmented bone aids in the killing, but it will depend on the angle, etc, etc.


Barnes probaly have one of the worst reputations for inconsistent performance of any bullet currently made. A Google search will prove this out.
About the most consisting fast killing yet also penetarting bullet made is the Nosler partition. Really nothing competes with it although many try.


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Barnes probaly have one of the worst reputations for inconsistent performance of any bullet currently made. A Google search will prove this out.
> About the most consisting fast killing yet also penetarting bullet made is the Nosler partition. Really nothing competes with it although many try.


I personally have had better luck with sciroccos. Never been a fan of the nosler. Which is odd because they're popular


----------



## N8TE

Ron660 said:


> To heavy unless you have the right barrel twist.


Bullet length has much more to do with it than weight.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I personally have had better luck with sciroccos. Never been a fan of the nosler. Which is odd because they're popular


I personaly prefer certain Ballistic Tips, like the 120 7mm, 150 7mm, 168 30 cal, 180 30 cal and the 200gr 338. These particular bullets have very thick jackets and I have used the 30 cal 1 80's on elk out now a 300 rum, and 300 win mag.


----------



## SCHallenger

MustangMike said:


> Velocity and Bullet profile will determine the rate of twist needed. A round nose bullet will stabilize with a lot less twist than a spitzter. I don't think you will stabilize a 240 gr bullet (sptizter boattail) with 1 in 10 twist at 308 velocity.
> 
> The 244 Rem w/1 in 12 twist was not good at stabilizing 100 gr bullets.
> 
> Re the Barnes bullets: They usually penetrate & kill very well because they form 4 petals that spin with the rifling (instead of a full mushroom) that cut the arteries, but I can understand that if you strike heavy bone that removes the petals they will kill more slowly, but they will still kill and are one of the most dependable bullets out there. All bullets will have +/- depending on the situation.
> 
> Usually when you strike bone, the fragmented bone aids in the killing, but it will depend on the angle, etc, etc.



I have a custom .244 with a 1 in 12 twist. The heaviest it would stabilize was an 87gr. Hornady Spire Point. It was made with woodchucking in mind using the Sierra 85gr. boattail, but it produced significantly better accuracy with the 75gr. Sierra. The 87 Hornady was used on a Pronghorn quartering toward me. It entered just in front of the leading shoulder at an upward angle, penetrated about 12in, & blew out the plumbing over the heart. He stood up on his hind legs & toppled over on his side.


----------



## MustangMike

bwalker said:


> 308 case is better suited to 6mm,6.5mm and 7mm bullets IMO.
> And I see about zero use for a bull barreled rifle besides target shooting and high volume varmint hunting.



Way back when I thought Winchester made a huge mistake not bringing out a 270/308. IMO, it would have been the perfect dual purpose bullet. The success of the 6.5 & 7mm Rems on that case, I think, prove my point. That case capacity was better suited to the 270 bore than the 06 case for a dual purpose round.

I almost did a wildcat in that cal.


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Way back when I thought Winchester made a huge mistake not bringing out a 270/308. IMO, it would have been the perfect dual purpose bullet. The success of the 6.5 & 7mm Rems on that case, I think, prove my point. That case capacity was better suited to the 270 bore than the 06 case for a dual purpose round.
> 
> I almost did a wildcat in that cal.


Hard to beat a 270, although it's not popular with the long range crowd anymore.
I have often thought if I sold all my rifles besides a 22, 223 ,270 and a 375 I'd be set for anything that walks.


----------



## MustangMike

The 270 is great for open field shots, but for a dual purpose cartridge, a 27/08 IMO would be better. I think there would have been plenty of demand for both, but Winchester did not see it that way.

Since I do most of my hunting in dense woods, I've returned to the 30 bore for hunting. Over the years, I've just had a far higher success rate with it. The last deer I took with the 270 WSM, the bullet obviously encountered some brush before hitting the deer, the entry hole was large and the exit hole small. The deer was well hit and still went over 100 yds.

I know all about sectional density and everything else, but in real life, the 30 cal bullets just seem to do better for me. In fact, if I did not feel the need to use a scope (the eyes got older), I'd still be using the 348 Win. It is hard to beat the performance of that cartridge. Was going to have a Ruger Single shot made up in it, but decided I wanted more than on shot in the gun on freezing cold days when your fingers start to go numb.

A 338/06 or 338 Federal would likely be very effective also, but the 30s just seem to do well enough.


----------



## wyk

bwalker said:


> 308 case is better suited to 6mm,6.5mm and 7mm bullets IMO.
> And I see about zero use for a bull barreled rifle besides target shooting and high volume varmint hunting.



I used a 243 Ackley w/ Nightforce 42X for my long range varminting in NW Texas.


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> The 270 is great for open field shots, but for a dual purpose cartridge, a 27/08 IMO would be better. I think there would have been plenty of demand for both, but Winchester did not see it that way.
> 
> Since I do most of my hunting in dense woods, I've returned to the 30 bore for hunting. Over the years, I've just had a far higher success rate with it. The last deer I took with the 270 WSM, the bullet obviously encountered some brush before hitting the deer, the entry hole was large and the exit hole small. The deer was well hit and still went over 100 yds.
> 
> I know all about sectional density and everything else, but in real life, the 30 cal bullets just seem to do better for me. In fact, if I did not feel the need to use a scope (the eyes got older), I'd still be using the 348 Win. It is hard to beat the performance of that cartridge. Was going to have a Ruger Single shot made up in it, but decided I wanted more than on shot in the gun on freezing cold days when your fingers start to go numb.
> 
> A 338/06 or 338 Federal would likely be very effective also, but the 30s just seem to do well enough.


Sectional density is meaningless as it pertains to expanding bullets. Frontal area of the expanded bullet is a much better indicator of penetration.
I'm a 30 cal guy too.. and I don't see the need for anything that comes in a short action once your passed the 6.5mm.
Always wanted a 348 in a model 71, but they are collectors guns now and the prices reflect it. Use a Marlin 45-70 with a 250gr Barnes TSX loaded to its full 1895 potential. Call that load the flying ash tray.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, best I can tell it is something about guns but not oil


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> I have no idea what you guys are talking about, best I can tell it is something about guns but not oil


I hear ya.....i just shoot arrows or bullets Winchester or Remington sells in the box and my freezer is always full of meat[emoji2]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

same here , and BTW 32:1 FTW!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I have no idea what you guys are talking about, best I can tell it is something about guns but not oil



Awesome poast..me neither , i have a pocket pistol.


----------



## porsche965

Since this is supposedly an oil thread, what oil(s) have you guys found out to be the best for lubricating? And do you use two (or more) oils for different applications on your weapons?

Sorry about the confusion, I'm talking about guns here lol.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I never really looked to find the "best" but every one i've ever used has been "good enough" never had anything melt down.[emoji3]

Using Honda HP2 at the moment.


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Since this is supposedly an oil thread, what oil(s) have you guys found out to be the best for lubricating? And do you use two (or more) oils for different applications on your weapons?
> 
> Sorry about the confusion, I'm talking about guns here lol.


Frog lube and Mpro 7


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Frog lube and Mpro 7


I little tab of mobil XP222 syn great with moly and I mean small on the locking lugs/lug abatements and the same on the cock in piece/sear is all I use on a bolt action. On my direct inpingment AR I use break free CLP and lots of it.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Sectional density is meaningless as it pertains to expanding bullets. Frontal area of the expanded bullet is a much better indicator of penetration.
> I'm a 30 cal guy too.. and I don't see the need for anything that comes in a short action once your passed the 6.5mm.
> Always wanted a 348 in a model 71, but they are collectors guns now and the prices reflect it. Use a Marlin 45-70 with a 250gr Barnes TSX loaded to its full 1895 potential. Call that load the flying ash tray.


I dropped a few bucks last year with my Marlin 1895MR in 450 using a 350gr. Both under 150 yds. That load shoots accurate at 275yds. if needed.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> 308 case is better suited to 6mm,6.5mm and 7mm bullets IMO.
> And I see about zero use for a bull barreled rifle besides target shooting and high volume varmint hunting.


My 7STW isn't to heavy with a #5 contour Krieger barrel. My 264 mag has a heavy #8 Krieger but it's strictly a pipeline or clearcut rig. I'll be loading and testing 140gr VLD's in that 264. I also have 168 and 180 VLD's to test in my STW. A heavy barrel helps with holding that reticle steady for longer shots.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I little tab of mobil XP222 syn great with moly and I mean small on the locking lugs/lug abatements and the same on the cock in piece/sear is all I use on a bolt action. On my direct inpingment AR I use break free CLP and lots of it.


I've been using the frog lube on pistols and AR. I don't shoot bolt actions much and those got the Mpro 7. Q


----------



## MustangMike

My only heavy barrel gun is my Ruger M77 in 220 swift (26" bbl), although the same gun in 300 Win Mag (24") sure feels heavy at times. I like my new Ruger American Rifle in 06 so much I also got one in 223.


----------



## huskihl

porsche965 said:


> Since this is supposedly an oil thread, what oil(s) have you guys found out to be the best for lubricating? And do you use two (or more) oils for different applications on your weapons?
> 
> Sorry about the confusion, I'm talking about guns here lol.


Conversatin' about guns >arguing about oil tests


----------



## KenJax Tree

huskihl said:


> Conversatin' about guns >arguing about oil tests


Oil arguments are more entertaining though.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i use royal purple gun oil available from oreilly 7.99 per can but good stuff 
its better than some other brands that like to gum and jell in cold weather.


----------



## redbull660

GA Precision built
Rem 700 short action - "A" prefix Trued
McMillan A5 Stock - heavy fill
Boots Obermeyer 21" Chambered - .308 1 in 11.27
Badger brake
Bader bolt knob
Badger Trig guard
Badger 20moa rail
Gretan firing pin
Badger 34mm rings
Harris bipod
Schmidt & Bender PMII - 3-12x50
Teflon coat all metal.
Weighs approx 17lbs.

Win brass
175gr sierra match kings
win primers
~44gr varget

Shooting off hand at 850yds at steel target. Later that day went out to 1187 yds (per range finder) at 12" steel target. 8 hits out of 10 shots.  Not bad for hitting super to subsonic transition before said distance/target.

lube/oil - Brownells sells there own brand...actually really good stuff...works well.


----------



## Deets066

Trx250r180 said:


> this 2t appears to have dye ?


Have you ran red line before? I have but it was a few years ago, I liked it at 50:1 but that was all I knew back then. Anyone ran it at 32:1?


----------



## MustangMike

That looks kinda like how I had to contort myself when I got the deer at 100 yds with the MZ last year. Had no choice but to take the shot offhand, standing, with nothing to lean on or against. But I did put the sling around my arm.

That is some long distance shooting! I have done 600 yds, but not standing, but with open sights! (A high power match at Camp Smith).


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> GA Precision built
> Rem 700 short action - "A" prefix Trued
> McMillan A5 Stock - heavy fill
> Boots Obermeyer 21" Chambered - .308 1 in 11.27
> Badger brake
> Bader bolt knob
> Badger Trig guard
> Badger 20moa rail
> Gretan firing pin
> Badger 34mm rings
> Harris bipod
> Schmidt & Bender PMII - 3-12x50
> Teflon coat all metal.
> Weighs approx 17lbs.
> 
> Win brass
> 175gr sierra match kings
> win primers
> ~44gr varget
> 
> Shooting off hand at 850yds at steel target. Later that day went out to 1187 yds (per range finder) at 12" steel target. 8 hits out of 10 shots.  Not bad for hitting super to subsonic transition before said distance/target.
> 
> lube/oil - Brownells sells there own brand...actually really good stuff...works well.


I really like my McMillan HTG woodland camo stock w/(#8 Krieger) on my 264. Probably going with a nightforce nxs 5-22x56. My cousin liked my stock so much he also got a HTG, buy forest camo, for his 7mag. He has a #4.5 Krieger contour. He's hitting good a little over 500 yds with hornady 154's. He wants me to load him some 168 or 180 VLD's. His has a fast twist at 1:8. So far our longest shots/loads tested have been 860yds with 150gr scirocco's in my STW. TSX's were super accurate up to 500yds but weren't consistent for me farther. We only test hunting bullets not target bullets.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> GA Precision built
> Rem 700 short action - "A" prefix Trued
> McMillan A5 Stock - heavy fill
> Boots Obermeyer 21" Chambered - .308 1 in 11.27
> Badger brake
> Bader bolt knob
> Badger Trig guard
> Badger 20moa rail
> Gretan firing pin
> Badger 34mm rings
> Harris bipod
> Schmidt & Bender PMII - 3-12x50
> Teflon coat all metal.
> Weighs approx 17lbs.
> 
> Win brass
> 175gr sierra match kings
> win primers
> ~44gr varget
> 
> Shooting off hand at 850yds at steel target. Later that day went out to 1187 yds (per range finder) at 12" steel target. 8 hits out of 10 shots.  Not bad for hitting super to subsonic transition before said distance/target.
> 
> lube/oil - Brownells sells there own brand...actually really good stuff...works well.


Factory trigger? Pull? My long range deer hunting rifle triggers are set 2.25 - 2.75 lbs. My squirrel rifle, rem. 581 action w/Broughton barrel 1:17 twist, is set at 1.25lbs. Canjar trigger.


----------



## MustangMike

Shots of over 100 yds in the woods I hunt are the exception.


----------



## Ron660

MustangMike said:


> Shots of over 100 yds in the woods I hunt are the exception.


I prefer to hunt deep in a hardwood bottom surrounded with oak trees. That's when I bring my Win 94 in 356 or my Marlin 450. Most memorable kills were during primitive weapon season using my Lyman Great Plains 54 black powder rifle using buffalo bullets and 110 grs of FF black powder. Looks like the size of a quarter going in and coming out. Lots of recoil and smoke!


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Awesome poast..me neither , i have a pocket pistol.


That's not a pistol in your pocket, that's your rocket,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## Trx250r180

Deets066 said:


> Have you ran red line before? I have but it was a few years ago, I liked it at 50:1 but that was all I knew back then. Anyone ran it at 32:1?


I have not used it, a good friend of mine was sponsored by them for sx, he ran it at 64 to 1 in his cr 125 back in the late 90's


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> Factory trigger? Pull? My long range deer hunting rifle triggers are set 2.25 - 2.75 lbs. My squirrel rifle, rem. 581 action w/Broughton barrel 1:17 twist, is set at 1.25lbs. Canjar trigger.



factory - old style with thick lever non concave back. All stainless I took off another 700. Stamped 1 ...hard to find. 

2.3-2.5lbs. 

rifle basix is a nice semi cheap custom trig. but there is always jewell 

another rig I had for a while... LWRC REPR 20". US Optics 1.8-10 if i remember right. Serial # the rifle was 0666 no joke. lol


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I have not used it, a good friend of mine was sponsored by them for sx, he ran it at 64 to 1 in his cr 125 back in the late 90's


I have ran it extensively in sleds and some in bikes. It reacts very poorly with ethanol and or water and corrode parts. It actually turned the main jets on my bike black and in a short period of time, not just storage.
It's one of only two oils I would say to never, ever run.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> factory - old style with thick lever non concave back. All stainless I took off another 700. Stamped 1 ...hard to find.
> 
> 2.3-2.5lbs.
> 
> rifle basix is a nice semi cheap custom trig. but there is always jewell
> 
> another rig I had for a while... LWRC REPR 20". US Optics 1.8-10 if i remember right. Serial # the rifle was 0666 no joke. lol


On a 700 Neil Jones does an excellent job tuning them. Not a Jewell, but nothing really is in that league. I like my hunting triggers set at 1lb.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> My 7STW isn't to heavy with a #5 contour Krieger barrel. My 264 mag has a heavy #8 Krieger but it's strictly a pipeline or clearcut rig. I'll be loading and testing 140gr VLD's in that 264. I also have 168 and 180 VLD's to test in my STW. A heavy barrel helps with holding that reticle steady for longer shots.


A Krieger #5 is pretty thick. In 7mm or 30 cal I like a Rock Creek 5R in a #3.


----------



## MustangMike

I like light triggers on my hunting rifles, but 1 lb in freezing cold conditions with gloved hands is just way too light. Around 3-4 lbs is just fine.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

bwalker said:


> I have ran it extensively in sleds and some in bikes. It reacts very poorly with ethanol and or water and corrode parts. It actually turned the main jets on my bike black and in a short period of time, not just storage.
> It's one of only two oils I would say to never, ever run.



What oil would you recommend to the guys who dont have access to eth free fuel ?


----------



## Stihl working hard

I miss the arguments on the oil side of this thread it has gone to the birds now good for a laugh while it lasted


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have ran it extensively in sleds and some in bikes. It reacts very poorly with ethanol and or water and corrode parts. It actually turned the main jets on my bike black and in a short period of time, not just storage.
> It's one of only two oils I would say to never, ever run.


H1r was turning the insides of my stihl fuel tanks brown ,is that just the dye doing that or the oil makeup you think ?


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> What oil would you recommend to the guys who dont have access to eth free fuel ?



This very well may be the answer to all oil problems right here ,simply awesome stuff ,combine with a 362 ,and you will be unstoppable .


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> H1r was turning the insides of my stihl fuel tanks brown ,is that just the dye doing that or the oil makeup you think ?


Have no idea.


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> What oil would you recommend to the guys who dont have access to eth free fuel ?


That woukd depend on what's readily available to you. There are many good oils now days.


----------



## HuskStihl

Trx250r180 said:


> This very well may be the answer to all oil problems right here ,simply awesome stuff ,combine with a 362 ,and you will be unstoppable .
> View attachment 433166


I'd run that oil just for the cool container.


----------



## 2dogs

Stihl working hard said:


> I miss the arguments on the oil side of this thread it has gone to the birds now good for a laugh while it lasted


Oil talk will be back, don't worry.

I live in the condor zone in Collyfornia so we can't use any lead. My 30-06 Rem 700 SS mountain rifle was tuned perfectly with Nosler Partition 165gr but now I use a Barnes 168gr. I haven't worked out a load I really like yet. The whole state will be no-lead in (IIRC) 2020, or maybe 2018. That gets expensive!


----------



## redbull660

Barnes or other all copper bullets...copper = less dense than lead. 

So for example 150gr all copper bullet = longer than typical lead with copper jacket bullet.

The extra length completely changes everything. From powder charge, seating depth, to how the barrel twist acts on the bullet...accuracy.

Copper petals on the barnes seem to sheer off if velocity is to high...they seem to perform better with less velocity. The performance of the petals is the key factor for barnes as the base of the bullet will basically not deform vs your typical lead base can deform/expand out somewhat depending on velocity and what it hits.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Barnes or other all copper bullets...copper = less dense than lead.
> 
> So for example 150gr all copper bullet = longer than typical lead with copper jacket bullet.
> 
> The extra length completely changes everything. From powder charge, seating depth, to how the barrel twist acts on the bullet...accuracy.
> 
> Copper petals on the barnes seem to sheer off if velocity is to high...they seem to perform better with less velocity. The performance of the petals is the key factor for barnes as the base of the bullet will basically not deform vs your typical lead base can deform/expand out somewhat depending on velocity and what it hits.


Barnes as a rule are pretty easy to get to shoot. At least the TSX and latter versions.
IME you really need all the velocity you can get with them and be sure you hit bone. If not all bets are off and even if the above conditions are met they still are inconsistent.


----------



## snoozeys

Need to filter button to remove the gun talk 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## bwalker

I did shoot a small buck, maybe 150lbs with a 100 gr TSX out of a 25-06 Ackley improved. Deer was only 35 yards away IIRC. Entry wound broke should and exit was just behind off side shoulder. The bullet then went through a large sugar beet that was laying on the ground and into the sand. Perfectly expanded four petals, yet the lungs looked like an ice pic went through them and the darn thing ran 7o plus yards into a hell hole of a cedar swamp.


----------



## MustangMike

Barnes copper bullets are more difficult to shoot accurately. My 30s like the 168 gr better than the 165, different profile shape. They are never my most accurate bullet. I would not use max bullet wt / cal. For example, if you like 180 gr 30 cal, try 168 gr Barnes, etc.

The pedals seemed to hold up fine for me, even from the 300 Win Mag. I'm sure they can fail on bone, but in ballistic material they hold up very well, and provide far more penetration than other bullets.

Expanded diameter is also very good, something lacking in the partition style bullets.

As previously stated, every style of bullet will have + & -.


----------



## 2dogs

redbull660 said:


> Barnes or other all copper bullets...copper = less dense than lead.
> 
> So for example 150gr all copper bullet = longer than typical lead with copper jacket bullet.
> 
> The extra length completely changes everything. From powder charge, seating depth, to how the barrel twist acts on the bullet...accuracy.
> 
> Copper petals on the barnes seem to sheer off if velocity is to high...they seem to perform better with less velocity. The performance of the petals is the key factor for barnes as the base of the bullet will basically not deform vs your typical lead base can deform/expand out somewhat depending on velocity and what it hits.


Agreed. That's why I am still working up the load, I only like to change one thing at a time.

BTW I am working up new loads for all my rifles and pistols as, like I said, no-lead bullets will be required state wide in the near future. It used to be a $200.00 order from Midway came in a big box. Now with copper bullets I get a tiny box.


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Barnes copper bullets are more difficult to shoot accurately. My 30s like the 168 gr better than the 165, different profile shape. They are never my most accurate bullet. I would not use max bullet wt / cal. For example, if you like 180 gr 30 cal, try 168 gr Barnes, etc.
> 
> The pedals seemed to hold up fine for me, even from the 300 Win Mag. I'm sure they can fail on bone, but in ballistic material they hold up very well, and provide far more penetration than other bullets.
> 
> Expanded diameter is also very good, something lacking in the partition style bullets.
> 
> As previously stated, every style of bullet will have + & -.


Barnes will always have a long and narrow wound cavity with less volume vs a partition. The partition by design blows off the front end to cause massive damage while the back end soldiers on and exits. The Barnes if it blows it's petals off is little more than caliber dizenas it pertains to frontal area and even if it retains four petals the frontal are is comprised by the gaps in the petals so in most cases they have less frontal area than a partition of equal size. Less frontal area is why the barnes penetrate deeper vs a partition. But this also causes less cavitation and as a result tissue damage.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> This very well may be the answer to all oil problems right here ,simply awesome stuff ,combine with a 362 ,and you will be unstoppable .
> View attachment 433166



That was marginally one of your most awesome poasts.


----------



## bwalker

One thing with Barnes is the tend to shoot better in many cases when seated well off the lands. Of course this isn't always the case as my ultra likes a slight kiss with the 180ttsx, but everything else I have tried them in preferred a good jump.


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> That was marginally one of your most awesome poasts.


I have honestly never tried either the 362 or mx2t yet ,but i am an internet expert off what i have read ,and everything has led to awesome ,so i got you covered on the fact that mx2t ,and the 362 are both


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I have honestly never tried either the 362 or mx2t yet ,but i am an internet expert off what i have read ,and everything has led to awesome ,so i got you covered on the fact that mx2t ,and the 362 are both



You just dont come across awesome poasts like this anymore.

Your missin out on a 362 c-m.


----------



## MustangMike

The ballistic tests I did with the Barnes X bullets showed considerable damage. Those petals are spinning. Test media was usually soaked newspaper.


----------



## mdavlee

SAWMIKAZE said:


> What oil would you recommend to the guys who dont have access to eth free fuel ?


Klotz original mixes with alcohol since pump gas could be e5 to e20.


----------



## MustangMike

Boy, I wish I cut pecker poles every day so I could be smart too!!!


----------



## svk

You guys are a riot....powering this thread to 300 pages with coexisting oil and gun discussions.

There are some bullets that claim to be better. But if you need to kill things, especially something with large claws and/or teeth, I would put my bottom dollar on Nosler Partition. Barnes X have very pretty performance examples from ballistic gelatin but they operate well in a much more narrow velocity band. It's possible for them to shear completely or not open at all.

I nearly lost a trophy caribou because the Trophy Bonded bullets I was shooting failed to open up. After I shot him 4 times he was still standing there looking at me from 10 yards away. Nosler in virtually the same spot flattened him like Thor's hammer.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> One thing with Barnes is the tend to shoot better in many cases when seated well off the lands. Of course this isn't always the case as my ultra likes a slight kiss with the 180ttsx, but everything else I have tried them in preferred a good jump.


My 160's like a 40 thousandths jump.


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> The ballistic tests I did with the Barnes X bullets showed considerable damage. Those petals are spinning. Test media was usually soaked newspaper.


The only spin a few rotations when going through an animal so there is no buzz saw effect.


----------



## bwalker

svk said:


> You guys are a riot....powering this thread to 300 pages with coexisting oil and gun discussions.
> 
> There are some bullets that claim to be better. But if you need to kill things, especially something with large claws and/or teeth, I would put my bottom dollar on Nosler Partition. Barnes X have very pretty performance examples from ballistic gelatin but they operate well in a much more narrow velocity band. It's possible for them to shear completely or not open at all.
> 
> I nearly lost a trophy caribou because the Trophy Bonded bullets I was shooting failed to open up. After I shot him 4 times he was still standing there looking at me from 10 yards away. Nosler in virtually the same spot flattened him like Thor's hammer.


Nosler are pretty much are the gold standard of bullets. Not bad for a product that came to Market in 1948!


----------



## Trx250r180

This thread feels like someone keeps changing the channel on tv, because 2 shows are on at the same time .


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Nosler are pretty much are the gold standard of bullets. Not bad for a product that came to Market in 1948!


The majority of quick kills have been with 140gr ballistic tips from my STW. One opening morning of deer season a nice buck was in a fast walk in a clear cut 268yds away. When I shot he did a forward flip and never moved.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> This thread feels like someone keeps changing the channel on tv, because 2 shows are on at the same time .


Three shows: oil thread, reloading, and hunting. Might be four by the end of the day.


----------



## svk

Ron660 said:


> Three shows: oil thread, reloading, and hunting. Might be four by the end of the day.


We haven't had a splitting axe argument on this site for months.... And I'm sure if we brought a few folks from F & L in here they could tell you how stupid it is to worry about oil differences. LOL


----------



## HuskStihl

2dogs said:


> I haven't worked out a load I really like yet. The whole state will be no-lead in (IIRC) 2020, or maybe 2018. That gets expensive!


Won't affect me, I've been loading depleted uranium for years. The only thing that will stop one of those is a 362 C-M!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

MustangMike said:


> Boy, I wish I cut pecker poles every day so I could be smart too!!!



Awesome poast mike.


----------



## NWCoaster

svk said:


> We haven't had a splitting axe argument on this site for months.... And I'm sure if we brought a few folks from F & L in here they could tell you how stupid it is to worry about oil differences. LOL


My Gransfors Bruk splitting maul is better than anything else on the market.... everything else sucks......


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

NWCoaster said:


> My Gransfors Bruk splitting maul is better than anything else on the market.... everything else sucks......



I got one for my birfday last year , seems like a good tool.


----------



## Trx250r180

i want one of these
http://www.neemantools.com/en/products/axes

i may get banned for this ,an axe built for ff forums


----------



## NWCoaster

Trx250r180 said:


> i want one of these
> http://www.neemantools.com/en/products/axes
> 
> i may get banned for this ,an axe built for ff forums



I would love to have one of his splitting Mauls... he crafts some beautiful tools.( I have watched that video many times) Really want one of his Damascus kitchen knife sets but the price is a bit steep. You have fine taste Sir!!


----------



## NWCoaster

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I got one for my birfday last year , seems like a good tool.


Wow, that is a nice birthday gift!!!


----------



## MustangMike

SAWMIKAZE said:


> You just dont come across awesome poasts like this anymore.
> 
> Your missin out on a 362 c-m.



Awesome post Ryan!


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

NWCoaster said:


> Wow, that is a nice birthday gift!!!



I got an awesome edition 362 c-m too , but i only cut small wood these days..im not a man 

I dont spilt much firewood either anymore but the little ive used it .. seems like a good maul.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

MustangMike said:


> Awesome post Ryan!



Thank you , i thought it was awesome too.

Poasts like that make alot of cents.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> Nosler are pretty much are the gold standard of bullets. Not bad for a product that came to Market in 1948!


I can't take it anymore, all the bs about bullets! Nosler partitions are fair at best. I have recovered several nosler partitions with the front half missing, in everything from o6 to 338. It was a good bullet when the first came out, butt the modern bonded billers are far superior. Barnes billets are like shooting full metal jackets. Good in Africa not here.


----------



## svk

Trx250r180 said:


> i want one of these
> http://www.neemantools.com/en/products/axes




That was really cool. I've seen blacksmith shop displays but this is a whole different level.


----------



## svk

Effs said:


> I can't take it anymore, all the bs about bullets! Nosler partitions are fair at best. I have recovered several nosler partitions with the front half missing, in everything from o6 to 338. It was a good bullet when the first came out, butt the modern bonded billers are far superior. Barnes billets are like shooting full metal jackets. Good in Africa not here.


The front lead will shed especially when fired from magnum calibers. Since you are inspecting bullets I'll assume it killed the quarry


----------



## Effs

svk said:


> The front lead will shed especially when fired from magnum calibers. Since you are inspecting bullets I'll assume it killed the quarry


The ones I found yes, partitions poke holes 50 pertcent of the time. I have had animals go 300 yards with a good shot and no signs of being hit. I sropes using them 30 years ago


----------



## svk

Checked out neeman's website. Impressive lineup. His splitting axe head has a familiar looking shape, very similar to Fiskars and Helko Vario.


----------



## svk

Effs said:


> The ones I found yes, partitions poke holes 50 pertcent of the time. I have had animals go 300 yards with a good shot and no signs of being hit. I sropes using them 30 years ago


I completely dismantled the heart and lungs of a whitetail buck with very hot loads from a 300 win mag and he ran almost 300 yards. Every deer I've ever shot with a 7mm-08 dropped in its tracks. Go figure. As long as you place the shot a good bullet won't let you down.


----------



## Effs

svk said:


> I completely dismantled the heart and lungs of a whitetail buck with very hot loads from a 300 win mag and he ran almost 300 yards. Every deer I've ever shot with a 7mm-08 dropped in its tracks. Go figure. As long as you place the shot a good bullet won't let you down.


Use a good bonded bullet, and they won't go 300 yards


----------



## svk

Effs said:


> Use a good bonded bullet, and they won't go 300 yards


Trust me, wouldn't have made a difference.


----------



## windthrown

2dogs said:


> Oil talk will be back, don't worry.
> 
> I live in the condor zone in Collyfornia so we can't use any lead. My 30-06 Rem 700 SS mountain rifle was tuned perfectly with Nosler Partition 165gr but now I use a Barnes 168gr. I haven't worked out a load I really like yet. The whole state will be no-lead in (IIRC) 2020, or maybe 2018. That gets expensive!



JHC, California gets more ridiculous every day I am gone. Steel shot sucks. I have to use it at some target ranges here. Not enough mass, similar to copper rounds. Ammo is spendy in any size or type now. Also .22 and other common ammo is nearly impossible to get in any volume.


----------



## Effs

windthrown said:


> JHC, California gets more ridiculous every day I am gone. Steel rounds suck. I have to use it at some target ranges here. Not enough mass. Ammo is spendy in any size or type now. Also .22 and other common ammo is nearly impossible to get in any volume.


We now sell non lead 22 ammo, the bullet is made of polymer. 22gr. And the price is even higher. It starts flying funny at 50 yds


----------



## windthrown

Polymer? You have a web site with details on that stuff? I know depleted uranium is completely unobtanium, as it is armor and vest piercing. Never mind the radiation (they are "depleted", but they are still radioactive).

They are also pushing us to get premium insurance with a CCW here now. I already have an added $million$ liability policy for my guns, property and truck. I almost bought a Beretta Nano the other day. Trigger was a long pull and not quite right, but it was a great fit for my hand and the holster. I am still looking for a single stack 9 to carry. I did not like any of the Glocks. I have a Kahr 9 now that is OK, but low end.


----------



## Effs

windthrown said:


> Polymer? You have a web site with details on that stuff? I know depleted uranium is completely unobtanium, as it is armor and vest piercing. Never mind the radiation (they are "depleted", but they are still radioactive).
> 
> They are also pushing us to get premium insurance with a CCW here now. I already have an added $million$ liability policy for my guns, property and truck. I almost bought a Beretta Nano the other day. Trigger was a long pull and not quite right, but it was a great fit for my hand and the holster. I am still looking for a single stack 9 to carry. I did not like any of the Glocks. I have a Kahr 9 now that is OK, but low end.


Go to cci web sight for 22 info, if ur in ca. You don't have much choice , kahr or smith shield


----------



## windthrown

Further derailment of thread...


----------



## windthrown

Effs said:


> Go to cci web sight for 22 info, if ur in ca. You don't have much choice , kahr or smith shield



I left CA for OR 10 years ago. I had a special CA permit for my DPMS Panther. Here its just another long gun. The Sheild was OK but did not feel good in my hands. Too small of a grip (my problem with most of the mono stackers). Most of my handguns are 'junk guns' in CA and not approved there. Though if I moved back I could bring them with me in a one time declaration deal. Not the AR though.


----------



## windthrown

More derailment...



Nice PPE there


----------



## MustangMike

I suspected the Obama administration was putting a bunch of boobs in the FBI, but it is nice to see photographic proof!


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> I can't take it anymore, all the bs about bullets! Nosler partitions are fair at best. I have recovered several nosler partitions with the front half missing, in everything from o6 to 338. It was a good bullet when the first came out, butt the modern bonded billers are far superior. Barnes billets are like shooting full metal jackets. Good in Africa not here.


The nosler is designed to blow the front half off. That's why they kill quickly.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> The nosler is designed to blow the front half off. That's why they kill quickly.


You are wrong again! They are not designed to come apart, also it is one of the poorest quick killing billers mfg today


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> You are wrong again! They are not designed to come apart, also it is one of the poorest quick killing billers mfg today


No, I'm not.. better do some research. And your opinions contridicts just about everyone elses...
Read Dr. Martin Fackler while your at it..you will find that bullets that fragment some kill much quicker.


----------



## MustangMike

Making blanket statements can get you in trouble. Fragmenting bullets kill varmints quickly, but a fragmenting bullet on the shoulder of a big game animal will just leave an ugly wound. For big game, you want a bullet that expands but does not fragment. The partition bullet does not have great expansion for the caliber.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> No, I'm not.. better do some research. And your opinions contridicts just about everyone elses...
> Read Dr. Martin Fackler while your at it..you will find that bullets that fragment some kill much quicker.


I have done my research. I stopped using partitions before you were born. I found they performed inconsist. I have had the opportunity to go to the largest ammo mfg factory. We shot ammo of all mfg and bullets in test gelatin. We looked at wound channels, penetration, bullet expansion and weight retintion. Also with high speed cameras. I have also had meetings with the head bullet designers. I have testified as an expert witness on ballistics on more than 1 occasion. You should change your title to master BSer for those who would listen to you!


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> I have done my research. I stopped using partitions before you were born. I found they performed inconsist. I have had the opportunity to go to the largest ammo mfg factory. We shot ammo of all mfg and bullets in test gelatin. We looked at wound channels, penetration, bullet expansion and weight retintion. Also with high speed cameras. I have also had meetings with the head bullet designers. I have testified as an expert witness on ballistics on more than 1 occasion. You should change your title to master BSer for those who would listen to you!


Speaking of BS. YOU just pegged my meter!


----------



## bwalker

MustangMike said:


> Making blanket statements can get you in trouble. Fragmenting bullets kill varmints quickly, but a fragmenting bullet on the shoulder of a big game animal will just leave an ugly wound. For big game, you want a bullet that expands but does not fragment. The partition bullet does not have great expansion for the caliber.


Read Fackler and get back with me...
The partition doesn't expand? Yoh kidding?
Your right that penetration to the vitals is important. However, a bullet that fragments some and pentrates (like a partitio) always kills faster. This isn't my opinion. It's been validated by peer reviewed research.


----------



## Ron660

NWCoaster said:


> My Gransfors Bruk splitting maul is better than anything else on the market.... everything else sucks......


 
There hatchets are awesome too!


----------



## Trx250r180

If you guys are looking for a good axe similar to gransfors but way less money ,may look at the husqvarna line ,i have 2 of them ,a carpenter ,and a felling axe ,have a nice feel ,and peel logs nice ,as well as cut ,i use my felling axe for wedges ,it sticks to the tree real nice when need somewhere to put it ,bottom one is splitting axe


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> If you guys are looking for a good axe similar to gransfors but way less money ,may look at the husqvarna line ,i have 2 of them ,a carpenter ,and a felling axe ,have a nice feel ,and peel logs nice ,as well as cut ,i use my felling axe for wedges ,it sticks to the tree real nice when need somewhere to put it ,bottom one is splitting axe View attachment 433319
> View attachment 433320
> View attachment 433321
> View attachment 433322
> View attachment 433323


I agree and I believe the Husky axes are made by Wetterling (sp?), which makes good stuff.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> If you guys are looking for a good axe similar to gransfors but way less money ,may look at the husqvarna line ,i have 2 of them ,a carpenter ,and a felling axe ,have a nice feel ,and peel logs nice ,as well as cut ,i use my felling axe for wedges ,it sticks to the tree real nice when need somewhere to put it ,bottom one is splitting axe View attachment 433319
> View attachment 433320
> View attachment 433321
> View attachment 433322
> View attachment 433323



Is the port timing any good on those ?

Are they headin to Tennessee soon ?


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I agree and I believe the Husky axes are made by Wetterling (sp?), which makes good stuff.


I think i read that somewhere now that you bring it up ,a $200 gransfors ,can get a similar husky for $80ish if my memory is correct .I do wish i would have bought the hatchet instead of the carpenter axe for carpentry ,the carpenter is fairly large for detail work ,peeling fir logs and notching them ,i have been making due with my cheap fiskar x-7 for finish work ,it being fairly small


----------



## bwalker

Once sharpened, I have split a whole elk along the spine with a Husky axe. Worked well and the edge held up great despite chopping through 4 feet of vertebrae.


----------



## blsnelling

Did someone say something about oil?


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Did someone say something about oil?


That should last awhile. Looks like older stock or something, as the last bottles I had, had the JASO FD rating printed on the back. It's the same oil none the less.[emoji3]


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> Did someone say something about oil?



JASO-FC?


----------



## blsnelling

NOS baby!


----------



## Trx250r180

I read that stuff is worth 50 bucks a pint now


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> I read that stuff is worth 50 bucks a pint now


In that case, I have 24 pints for sale, lol.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> In that case, I have 24 pints for sale, lol.


I'll take 3.2ozs.


----------



## wyk

Trx250r180 said:


> This thread feels like someone keeps changing the channel on tv, because 2 shows are on at the same time .



I forgot to mention:

An estate that has a woodsman usually also has a game keeper. This is his main rifle for keeping the deer under control out here - It looks like a Winchester 70 in 7mm Rem on top his lil Mitsubishi diesel jeep(Yes, the rifle is threaded to take a suppressor, which are legal in Ireland if you have a rifle permit):


----------



## smokey7

I want to know where to get mx2t i cant find the old series available anywhere. Id buy cases if i could find it. Please!!!!!!


----------



## Moparmyway

I just got a case of Mobil 1 just like Brad posted ............... came from the West Coast 
For me, its narrowed down to R50, 800 off road, Mobil 1, or K2 .......................... running them all to see which works best in every motor

Shame about the Mobil 1 being so hard to get ..................... kind of narrows down the choices for future purchases


----------



## redbull660

motul 800 off road 45:1



motul 800 off road 32:1



reset done and cut a tank with 32:1 before I did the test cuts with 32:1

sorry don't have the times handy. 45:1 was a little faster. but not the drop off in time like h1r...however never did reset on h1r...but I have my doubts if that would of made a difference.

It was approx. 90 degrees out when I did this. I did some cutting the other day when it was in the 60s and 32:1 was kind of doggy. But when 90 degrees out it felt pretty good. 

So...how hot it is outside seems to have an affect on how much oil one needs...

Soo I am thinking when I do the oil test I'm going to have to do a few oils head to head on the day at the same time. Process of elimination. Take winner of that day against new oils on a new day.


thoughts?


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> motul 800 off road 45:1
> 
> 
> 
> motul 800 off road 32:1
> 
> 
> 
> reset done and cut a tank with 32:1 before I did the test cuts with 32:1
> 
> sorry don't have the times handy. 45:1 was a little faster. but not the drop off in time like h1r...however never did reset on h1r...but I have my doubts if that would of made a difference.
> 
> It was approx. 90 degrees out when I did this. I did some cutting the other day when it was in the 60s and 32:1 was kind of doggy. But when 90 degrees out it felt pretty good.
> 
> So...how hot it is outside seems to have an affect on how much oil one needs...
> 
> Soo I am thinking when I do the oil test I'm going to have to do a few oils head to head on the day at the same time. Process of elimination. Take winner of that day against new oils on a new day.
> 
> 
> thoughts?



Sounds like a tuning issue.[emoji6]


----------



## Moparmyway

That 661 sounds soo-oo much better with the 32:1 800 off road


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> That 661 sounds soo-oo much better with the 32:1 800 off road


I thought that also ,was 4 strokin a lot at 45 to 1


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I think redbulls saws are just really confused..constantly lubed in a different way..they probably dont even know what day of the week it is , confused is all they are.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I just got a case of Mobil 1 just like Brad posted ............... came from the West Coast
> For me, its narrowed down to R50, 800 off road, Mobil 1, or K2 .......................... running them all to see which works best in every motor
> 
> Shame about the Mobil 1 being so hard to get ..................... kind of narrows down the choices for future purchases


I would run MX2T if it was still being made, but I won't play the chasing NOS game.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> motul 800 off road 45:1
> 
> 
> 
> motul 800 off road 32:1
> 
> 
> 
> reset done and cut a tank with 32:1 before I did the test cuts with 32:1
> 
> sorry don't have the times handy. 45:1 was a little faster. but not the drop off in time like h1r...however never did reset on h1r...but I have my doubts if that would of made a difference.
> 
> It was approx. 90 degrees out when I did this. I did some cutting the other day when it was in the 60s and 32:1 was kind of doggy. But when 90 degrees out it felt pretty good.
> 
> So...how hot it is outside seems to have an affect on how much oil one needs...
> 
> Soo I am thinking when I do the oil test I'm going to have to do a few oils head to head on the day at the same time. Process of elimination. Take winner of that day against new oils on a new day.
> 
> 
> thoughts?



Thoughts? Don't mistake minute differance in performance on the oil used. At least as likely is the fact that the tuning is quit inconsistant. That is unless your seeing the same sorts of patterns over multiple days and hundreds of tests. Not discouraging your work, just saying be careful not to jump to conclusions.


----------



## Ron660

reindeer said:


> I forgot to mention:
> 
> An estate that has a woodsman usually also has a game keeper. This is his main rifle for keeping the deer under control out here - It looks like a Winchester 70 in 7mm Rem on top his lil Mitsubishi diesel jeep(Yes, the rifle is threaded to take a suppressor, which are legal in Ireland if you have a rifle permit):
> 
> View attachment 433424


That's an odd looking rail or scope mount.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> Did someone say something about oil?



What's the viscosity at 100C?


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> That's an odd looking rail or scope mount.


I don't see any rings either.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> What's the viscosity at 100C?


13.7 cst


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> I don't see any rings either.


Looks like the mounts are built on the scope.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> What's the viscosity at 100C?


What's it matter?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Looks like the mounts are built on the scope.


Those rail style mounts are popular in Europe.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> 13.7 cst




Is this the sane as MX2T? Tech sheet shows this one at 12.7 cst.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> What's it matter?



It tends to represent film strength, especially at high temperatures.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Those rail style mounts are popular in Europe.


He needs a check piece ...high mount.


----------



## 2dogs

Ron660 said:


> He needs a check piece ...high mount.


That's a rather cheeky comment to make.


----------



## Big_Wood

i'm pretty well convinced on the lucas. i've pulled many saws apart that had been running it now. even ones i tuned lean to the extreme and they still have a decent oil coat at 50:1. top of piston is also cleaner then running stihl ultra. bottom line is, the past statements of lucas leaving a top end dry is just flat out absolute BS made up by an H1R lover LOL.  i ran 50:1 in a 372 hutzl big bore ported for a month and the thing came apart with oil. no where near as much as 32:1 of course but there was oil all over everything and i think that is good enough.

http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/lucas-semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 433573
> 
> Is this the sane as MX2T? Tech sheet shows this one at 12.7 cst.


I don't think so, but it could be a misprint. I have noticed varation in this same oil across different areas


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It tends to represent film strength, especially at high temperatures.


There are other factors at play too. VI for one. And keep in mind that the figure represents the combined viscosity of a blend.
There seems to be a more equals better mentality on this site. There are trade offs to everything and high viscosity oils do have trade offs.
Besides film strength isn't something I would worry about in a low BMEP engine like a chainsaw. If you did want the highest film strength oil available run a castor or castor synthetic blend oil.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> He needs a check piece ...high mount.


For some odd reason they like their scopes mounted high too..


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm pretty well convinced on the lucas. i've pulled many saws apart that had been running it now. even ones i tuned lean to the extreme and they still have a decent oil coat at 50:1. top of piston is also cleaner then running stihl ultra. bottom line is, the past statements of lucas leaving a top end dry is just flat out absolute BS made up by an H1R lover LOL.  i ran 50:1 in a 372 hutzl big bore ported for a month and the thing came apart with oil. no where near as much as 32:1 of course but there was oil all over everything and i think that is good enough.
> 
> http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/lucas-semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil


I get a kick out of the dry top end comments. The amount of residual oil is dictated by one thing and that is what oil ratio is being used.
I am not a fan or lucas or of using injector or dual purpose oils in premix applications.


----------



## Bwildered

reindeer said:


> I forgot to mention:
> 
> An estate that has a woodsman usually also has a game keeper. This is his main rifle for keeping the deer under control out here - It looks like a Winchester 70 in 7mm Rem on top his lil Mitsubishi diesel jeep(Yes, the rifle is threaded to take a suppressor, which are legal in Ireland if you have a rifle permit):
> 
> View attachment 433424


That rifle is setup for someone with a crook neck or disability, either that or they get a black eye every time they shoot, look how far back that scope is!
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> That rifle is setup for someone with a crook neck or disability, either that or they get a black eye every time they shoot, look how far back that scope is!
> Thansk


Very common setup over there as are scopes with huge objectives.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Very common setup over there as are scopes with huge objectives.


You must show me some pictures of how common they are then. I'd say the reason it is mounted so high is to have clear vision above the huge muffler that would normally be on it. Why it's mounted so far back is another question though.
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> You must show me some pictures of how common they are then. I'd say the reason it is mounted so high is to have clear vision above the huge muffler that would normally be on it. Why it's mounted so far back is another question though.
> Thansk


Think it has to do with the European taste, as unpractical as it is.
Look at a German K98 sniper rifle from ww2 and you will find they have a stock set up for irons and mounts that put the scope ridiculously high.


----------



## redbull660

rifle looks like a Sako or CZ? definitely long action cartridge.

scope - zeiss/hensoldt - 30-34mm main body with a 56mm objective. 

mounts - never run into anything like that. Doesn't look very stable.

mount height - doesn't need to be that high to clear the Can (suppressor). Judging by the Harris bipod being the long leg model most likely sits and doesn't use the cheek rest to aim. Or he has an odd style of aim. But with the scope dimensions like it is - it should have a large exit pupil and a lot of eye relief to allow him to do this.

Caliber - I'd guess something in the area of 25-06. 7mm is kinda over kill for that area unless you'd be going out to distance and that scope isn't setup for serious distance.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> rifle looks like a CZ definitely long action cartridge.
> 
> scope - zeiss/hensoldt - 30-34mm main body with a 56mm objective.
> 
> mounts - never run into anything like that. Doesn't look very stable.
> 
> mount height - doesn't need to be that high to clear the Can (suppressor). Judging by the Harris bipod being the long leg model most likely sits and doesn't use the cheek rest to aim. Or he has an odd style of aim. But with the scope dimensions like it is - it should have a large exit pupil and a lot of eye relief to allow him to do this.
> 
> Caliber - I'd guess something in the area of 25-06. 7mm is kinda over kill for that area unless you'd be going out to distance and that scope isn't setup for serious distance.


Its a Winchester model 70 feather weight in a magnum caliber. The barrel contour and stock give it away.


----------



## Trx250r180

Just trying to stay on topic here with axes' and guns ...


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Just trying to stay on topic here with axes' and guns ...


You have CAD !!!!


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> You have CAD !!!!


Nope ,just have Google


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> rifle looks like a Sako or CZ? definitely long action cartridge.
> 
> scope - zeiss/hensoldt - 30-34mm main body with a 56mm objective.
> 
> mounts - never run into anything like that. Doesn't look very stable.
> 
> mount height - doesn't need to be that high to clear the Can (suppressor). Judging by the Harris bipod being the long leg model most likely sits and doesn't use the cheek rest to aim. Or he has an odd style of aim. But with the scope dimensions like it is - it should have a large exit pupil and a lot of eye relief to allow him to do this.
> 
> Caliber - I'd guess something in the area of 25-06. 7mm is kinda over kill for that area unless you'd be going out to distance and that scope isn't setup for serious distance.


Win 70


----------



## Tor R

Ron660 said:


> That's an odd looking rail or scope mount.


Zeiss with rail mount, you can also get rail mount from Swarovski.
I have had Zeiss with rail mount before, but it takes alot work and money before you get a mounting system that fit perfect, ie, low mount. Most of the rail mount system I've seen is to high for my taste. Blaser though, they have a beautiful saddle mount for their R93 rifle.


----------



## dwraisor

bwalker said:


> Plus there is the thought amongst certain people that the least amount of twist possible produces the most accuracy.



It is a real thing, but only an issue past 1000 yards, called spin drift. Bullets where the COG is not in line w/ the COR will exhibit some amount of yaw, and each rotation tends to move the bullet in the direction of rotation...



N8TE said:


> Bullet length has much more to do with it than weight.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



Yes, but all things equal a heavier bullet is longer and versa-visa



Mastermind said:


> No Brian, I want to just run this 2R for a few months. That's the best way for me to really decide if I like a certain oil. If I switch around too much I'll never be able to give a fair evaluation.
> 
> Don't take my word for anything. I recommended H1R because it protected well, I didn't realize it was holding back some saws. Even our MS150T runs much better on 2R.



And back to oil, what brand is this 2R the monkey speaks so highly of?


dw


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> Think it has to do with the European taste, as unpractical as it is.


nothing wrong with the european taste. both zeiss and swarovski make rifle optic that is top notch. I am stunned how good they really are in sunlight compared to for example Leopold.


----------



## mdavlee

Tor R said:


> nothing wrong with the european taste. both zeiss and swarovski make rifle optic that is top notch. I am stunned how good they really are in sunlight compared to for example Leopold.


Steiner, Kahles, Schmidt & Bender are all top notch glass as well. More towards the tactical and military shooting stuff.


----------



## Tor R

mdavlee said:


> Steiner, Kahles, Schmidt & Bender are all top notch glass as well. More towards the tactical and military shooting stuff.


Agree with you.
I have never had Kahles and S&B, but I have looked into them. Steiner is a brand we dont see so often here.
Kahles now and then making a good serie, but you never know if their new serie is up there, but they have always had nice price tag. It's defently a brand that should be followed. Btw, Austrich made just like Swarovski.
S&B have always been lower in quality compared to Zeiss, but pricing is nice.
Another brand who used to be good is Doctor, made on the old Zeiss factory in East Germany.
My first optic for the rifle where Doctor with æ glasses, I still remember how strong it was in contrast.


----------



## Trx250r180

dwraisor said:


> It is a real thing, but only an issue past 1000 yards, called spin drift. Bullets where the COG is not in line w/ the COR will exhibit some amount of yaw, and each rotation tends to move the bullet in the direction of rotation...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but all things equal a heavier bullet is longer and versa-visa
> 
> 
> 
> And back to oil, what brand is this 2R the monkey speaks so highly of?
> 
> 
> dw


Yamalube 2r ,makes the gas purple


----------



## Tor R

Mobil 1 Racing 2T, what mix ratio would people recomend?
I was thinking 40:1 would be a good start.......


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> nothing wrong with the european taste. both zeiss and swarovski make rifle optic that is top notch. I am stunned how good they really are in sunlight compared to for example Leopold.


Optics are good no doubt. I run only zeiss currently along with a Leica HD-B BRF.
The way the set up their rigs sucks though..


----------



## windthrown

Re-rail the de-rail: My favorite handgun except, I took the combat grips off and put smooth grips on. I also added a compensator. And I have extended magazines for it.


----------



## windthrown

Tor R said:


> Mobil 1 Racing 2T, what mix ratio would people recomend?
> I was thinking 40:1 would be a good start.......



What? Oil questions? Well, since you are from Norge... that is good oil. I used to use it when it was available here. I use 3oz per gallon, which is 42.67:1. But 40:1 is just fine by me. Only problem with Mobil that I had was that it is clear, and I like the blue dyed premix oil so I can tell if a batch of gas has oil in it or not.


----------



## wyk

Bwildered said:


> That rifle is setup for someone with a crook neck or disability, either that or they get a black eye every time they shoot, look how far back that scope is!
> Thansk



Injured shoulder.


----------



## wyk

windthrown said:


> Re-rail the de-rail: My favorite handgun except, I took the combat grips off and put smooth grips on. I also added a compensator. And I have extended magazines for it.
> 
> View attachment 433742



I used to live 5 mins away from STI in Georgetown, Texas - this was my IDPA open class STI 9mm, 19 round gun:






And my Ace Customs CCW built on a Colt LW Commander circa 1989 or so:






I also spent a good deal of time practicing with my HK Tactical and some Shiner;


----------



## wyk

Tor R said:


> nothing wrong with the european taste. both zeiss and swarovski make rifle optic that is top notch. I am stunned how good they really are in sunlight compared to for example Leopold.



That scope is nice and bright, especially in low light. It's also perfectly legal for him to take a shot from the jeep, which is prolly where the high cheek weld helps. He is a big guy, as well. Also manages our fishing syndicate, and is handy with an arc welder. We're gonna try and make a chainsaw mill when we find the time. He keeps asking me to go on patrol with him, but I am too busy as both the woodsman and the steward. He's a real cool, laid back dude. And he has nearly as many guns as I did when I lived back in Texas, a very lovely Beretta shotgun amongst them. Once you become the gamekeeper on a well known estate in Ireland, getting gun permits is basically a given.


----------



## KG441c

windthrown said:


> Re-rail the de-rail: My favorite handgun except, I took the combat grips off and put smooth grips on. I also added a compensator. And I have extended magazines for it.
> 
> View attachment 433742




CLARK CUSTOM MELTDOWN COLT SERIES 70 COMMANDER .45


----------



## Ron660

Knife thread too. Anyone know this knife maker? He made the Rambo knife in first blood. Sambar stag and D2 steel. This is my favorite big game skinner.


----------



## HuskStihl

Just ordered a quart of belRay and a quart of yamalube. Guns and knives are so gay.


----------



## KenJax Tree

HuskStihl said:


> Just ordered a quart of belRay and a quart of yamalube. Guns and knives are so gay.


Belray?? Get well soon saw[emoji45]


----------



## Ron660

HuskStihl said:


> Just ordered a quart of belRay and a quart of yamalube. Guns and knives are so gay.


The chainsaws help keep my belly warm. The rifles and knives keep it full. A shed full of firewood and a freezer full of deer meat makes a happy winter.


----------



## Ron660

HuskStihl said:


> Just ordered a quart of belRay and a quart of yamalube. Guns and knives are so gay.


Mobil 1 isn't the current choice/fad?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm liking the Honda HP2 at the moment


----------



## KG441c

RANDALL DENMARK SPECIAL


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm liking the Honda HP2 at the moment


X2 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KG441c

I ran alota hp2 in my race yz250 with 0 issues


----------



## mdavlee

Mobil is what I'm going to mix up tomorrow to use. Got a saw or 3 to test out this weekend.


----------



## LowVolt

HuskStihl said:


> Guns and knives are so gay.



"Do you Gun take Knife to be thy lawfully wedded husband?"


----------



## porsche965

mdavlee said:


> Mobil is what I'm going to mix up tomorrow to use. Got a saw or 3 to test out this weekend.



Mike, I'm really anxious to hear what your experiences with Mobil will be. Thanks.


----------



## Sagetown

Today; out of curiosity, I checked the amount of contents of two different brands of those little 2.6 oz bottles of 2 cycle oil. Lucas semi-synthetic, and Stihl HP Ultra.
Using a 4oz Baby Bottle with the printed oz, and ml amounts on the sides, I dumped the Lucas bottle in, and it measured 2.8 oz.
After pouring the oil back into it's original container, I cleaned the baby bottle and Stihl measured right on the money at 2.6oz or 76.8ml. Hmmm!


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 433797
> 
> Knife thread too. Anyone know this knife maker? He made the Rambo knife in first blood. Sambar stag and D2 steel. This is my favorite big game skinner.


I have always been partial to Gene Ingram knives, but slum a Knives of Alaska Jaeger most of the time.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I have always been partial to Gene Ingram knives, but slum a Knives of Alaska Jaeger most of the time.


I have the bear and cub combo knives of Alaska (called light hunter combo now). I prefer 0-1 steel over D2 though. My knives of Alaska have D2 and my Randall is 0-1 steel.


----------



## Bwildered

reindeer said:


> Injured shoulder.


Thansk, sometimes the rocket scientists don't see the obvious.
Thansk


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Think it has to do with the European taste, as unpractical as it is.
> Look at a German K98 sniper rifle from ww2 and you will find they have a stock set up for irons and mounts that put the scope ridiculously high.


Things have moved along somewhat since ww2, just like oil ratios. LOL
Thansk


----------



## HuskStihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Belray?? Get well soon saw[emoji45]


I came in late. Is belray bad now? I wish it smelled better, and wasn't "gas colored", but stuff always looked super-nice inside the saw when I was running it.


----------



## Trx250r180

HuskStihl said:


> I came in late. Is belray bad now? I wish it smelled better, and wasn't "gas colored", but stuff always looked super-nice inside the saw when I was running it.


The yamalube is a cool purple color,you can see it better mixed 32 to 1 than 40 to 1 in the clear tank on my 660


----------



## windthrown

HuskStihl said:


> Just ordered a quart of belRay and a quart of yamalube. Guns and knives are so gay.



Oil is gay. Or rather, Oil of OhGay!


----------



## blsnelling

Knives?  I need to get some pics of my fixed blades.


----------



## Justsaws

Mother of ***, the shiney points are here.

Knife lube thread in, 3,2.....


----------



## rogue661

Thanks guys am stressing out now thinking what's the best oil for my knives? I can almost hear them rusting in the back ground! haha...
Well out with it what's the best oil for my knives? mineral based oil/ no oil/semi synthetic/ fully synthetic?....
I hear B-29 landing gear oil is the bee's knees yes?


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Mike, I'm really anxious to hear what your experiences with Mobil will be. Thanks.


If the fumes aren't bad then it will be my milling oil probably. 800 is a little strong when the wind isn't right. K2 is way better in that regard.


----------



## Moparmyway

K2 is turning into a much better option than I origionally thought.
Brad has been suggesting its use for some time now ................. 
and I do see why;
Virtually no smell, nice oily protection inside, no tuning issues, crisp running motors ............................................................ whats not to like ??


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Knives?  I need to get some pics of my fixed blades.


Brad do you have any Randall, Liles, Blackjack, or Canal Street or a KW Loveless? Id like a KW but 2000 to 4000 is out of my range


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Brad do you have any Randall, Liles, Blackjack, or Canal Street or a KW Loveless? Id like a KW but 2000 to 4000 is out of my range


I do not.


----------



## windthrown

Does this make me look too gay?


----------



## windthrown

Or this?


----------



## LowVolt

Positively the the best gun I ever owned.....


----------



## windthrown

I can shave with this knife. Kershaw, made here in town. Sharpest knives I have ever owned.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I could probably shave with my Spyderco too but men have beards[emoji1]


----------



## Trx250r180

windthrown said:


> I can shave with this knife. Kershaw, made here in town. Sharpest knives I have ever owned.
> 
> View attachment 433923



Mine gets the crap beat out of it ,when it wont cut at all i take it to the bottom of the silvey grinder to make it sharp enough to cut  If it gets too bad ,take the tip ,and clamp it in a vise and bust it off ,and the snap on guy gives me another one .yes the blade is half ground off ,lol


----------



## wyk

LowVolt said:


> "Do you Gun take Knife to be thy lawfully wedded husband?"



We do:


----------



## HuskStihl

KenJax Tree said:


> I could probably shave with my Spyderco too but men have beards[emoji1]


Ruggedly handsome men do, that is. I spent the better part of the day mowing pastures, dragging brush, and trimming fence lines, but I spent the entire day being ruggedly handsome.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Brad do you have any Randall, Liles, Blackjack, or Canal Street or a KW Loveless? Id like a KW but 2000 to 4000 is out of my range


Randall, Lile, and Loveless belong in a special category by themselves. Both Lile and Loveless knives are extremely pricey not only because they're handmade quality but also due to the makers are deceased and those knives are no longer made. Bo Randall's son, Gary, is carrying on their knife making.


----------



## windthrown

Trx250r180 said:


> Mine gets the crap beat out of it ,when it wont cut at all i take it to the bottom of the silvey grinder to make it sharp enough to cut  If it gets too bad ,take the tip ,and clamp it in a vise and bust it off ,and the snap on guy gives me another one .yes the blade is half ground off ,lol View attachment 433927



That there is knife abuse. Might even be a misty meaner in some states. Breakin' knives to get a new one... good idea!


----------



## Chris-PA

windthrown said:


> That there is knife abuse. Might even be a misty meaner in some states. Breakin' knives to get a new one... good idea!


Nah, it's square ground!


----------



## LowVolt

HuskStihl said:


> Ruggedly handsome men do, that is. I spent the better part of the day mowing pastures, dragging brush, and trimming fence lines, but I spent the entire day being ruggedly handsome.


Hey somebody has to do it, might as well be you.


----------



## HuskStihl

LowVolt said:


> Hey somebody has to do it, might as well be you.


It ain't easy. As KenJax said of me "he ain't my brother, but he's heavy"


----------



## LowVolt

windthrown said:


> I can shave with this knife. Kershaw, made here in town. Sharpest knives I have ever owned.
> 
> View attachment 433923





Trx250r180 said:


> Mine gets the crap beat out of it ,when it wont cut at all i take it to the bottom of the silvey grinder to make it sharp enough to cut  If it gets too bad ,take the tip ,and clamp it in a vise and bust it off ,and the snap on guy gives me another one .yes the blade is half ground off ,lol View attachment 433927



My daily weapon of choice.....


----------



## redbull660

took out the first cuts as they were what I do as warm up cuts.







Times

800 - 45:1
23.4 25.0 35.1

800 - 32:1
23.4 23.2 36.4

Considering the 404 RM chain doesn't seem to cut as nice/smooth/clean as the RS. I'd have to say for all intents and purposes those times are damn near equal. But I will say it was a HOT 93F out. I ran 32:1 the other day when it was cooler and it didn't seem as nice as it was today. So maybe 40:1 would be a nice happy medium. 

here is 45:1 800 the other day when it was cooler out. Sounds better ?



In any case there is no huge drop off in times like with H1R. Unless not doing the "reset" wast he cause of the drop off.


I'd have to say given Mdavelee's milling success with 800 off road and given the high viscosity (probable extra protection...yes I know there is more to it then just that number), and given it's a similar formulation to stihl ultra (all ester and additive package with nothing else)...man if this stuff runs as fast as the other oils out there (dumonde, amsoil, r50, k2, R2, ultra, h1r and mobil 1 2xt) this would be my personal clear winner.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> I'd have to say given Mdavelee's milling success with 800 off road and given the high viscosity ....................... this would be my personal clear winner.



800 is good stuff !
I am torn between K2, 800, and R50 ...................... have some Mobil to run soon, but it looks like my field has only 3 players now being the Mobil is getting more and more difficult to source


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm liking the Honda HP2 at the moment


On a previous note about 32:1 being smokey, yesterday it was about 70 degrees and I had the 7900 out and on a cold start it was actually normal. While running though after leaning the H out to 1 turn out, the saw was absolutely amazing!!!! It felt like it gained a little more pep in it's step, possibly it is breaking in after the piston replacement,

Might pull the cylinder after this bottle of HP2 is gone. 

The smell is racey to me but it actually is better than K2 and K2 has little smell.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## redbull660

Moparmyway said:


> 800 is good stuff !
> I am torn between K2, 800, and R50 ...................... have some Mobil to run soon, but it looks like my field has only 3 players now being the Mobil is getting more and more difficult to source




I personally don't care for R50 because of it's limitations in the cold (but I'll still test it...never know!). Per klotz it's good down to about -15ish. While 800 is good down to -54...guys up in Canada run 800 a lot. (per Motul...no reason to doubt this claim though)

Not that I would cut wood in anything under say -20 that is about my own personal limitation lol But the above info certainly leads me to believe that r50 would be less of a performer in even the mild cold.


My concern with K2 is the PIB in it, being a health hazard. Why breathe the stuff, if 800 does the same thing and doesn't have PIB in it.


----------



## mdavlee

redbull660 said:


> I personally don't care for R50 because of it's limitations in the cold (but I'll still test it...never know!). Per klotz it's good down to about -15ish. While 800 is good down to -54...guys up in Canada run 800 a lot. (per Motul...no reason to doubt this claim though)
> 
> Not that I would cut wood in anything under say -20 that is about my own personal limitation lol But the above info certainly leads me to believe that r50 would be less of a performer in even the mild cold.
> 
> 
> My concern with K2 is the PIB in it, being a health hazard. Why breathe the stuff, if 800 does the same thing and doesn't have PIB in it.


800 has a stronger smell and can burn your eyes if there's not much wind.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> 800 has a stronger smell and can burn your eyes if there's not much wind.



The 800 off-road I've used, about 2 liters, I've never experienced odor issues. It actually smells great but I mix with 110 Sunoco racing fuel not regular gas.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> took out the first cuts as they were what I do as warm up cuts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Times
> 
> 800 - 45:1
> 23.4 25.0 35.1
> 
> 800 - 32:1
> 23.4 23.2 36.4
> 
> Considering the 404 RM chain doesn't seem to cut as nice/smooth/clean as the RS. I'd have to say for all intents and purposes those times are damn near equal. But I will say it was a HOT 93F out. I ran 32:1 the other day when it was cooler and it didn't seem as nice as it was today. So maybe 40:1 would be a nice happy medium.
> 
> here is 45:1 800 the other day when it was cooler out. Sounds better ?
> 
> 
> 
> In any case there is no huge drop off in times like with H1R. Unless not doing the "reset" wast he cause of the drop off.
> 
> 
> I'd have to say given Mdavelee's milling success with 800 off road and given the high viscosity (probable extra protection...yes I know there is more to it then just that number), and given it's a similar formulation to stihl ultra (all ester and additive package with nothing else)...man if this stuff runs as fast as the other oils out there (dumonde, amsoil, r50, k2, R2, ultra, h1r and mobil 1 2xt) this would be my personal clear winner.



Good job. Thanks for the tests. I'm considering using 404 on my 660. What size Cannon bar is that?


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> The 800 off-road I've used, about 2 liters, I've never experienced odor issues. It actually smells great but I mix with 110 Sunoco racing fuel not regular gas.


I didn't notice it as bad bit my dad was on the opposite end of the 56" mill and said it was rough. We switched and it was pretty bad.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I didn't notice it as bad bit my dad was on the opposite end of the 56" mill and said it was rough. We switched and it was pretty bad.


 Have you noticed any foul odors using R50, K2, or Yamalube? Was 800 one of the cleanest burning oils you've used?


----------



## CR500

I think all oils are not healthy to breathe in lol... like said I think at 32:1 the oils I've tried are sufficient in protection. As for smell it depends on the person I think?

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> Have you noticed any foul odors using R50, K2, or Yamalube? Was 800 one of the cleanest burning oils you've used?


Didn't get to try yamalube yet. R50 is a little strong with no breeze. K2 is probably the least offensive to me. This Mobil I didn't get enough run time yesterday to say if there's a smell or not. It had half a tank of VP and K2 left when I added pump gas and Mobil to top off.


----------



## Andyshine77

So our conclusion so far is? 

With proper tuning and a good sawyer 32:1 will improve power not diminish it, unless you're running H1R. Even then I'm not convinced the earlier results were conclusive to say the least.

I found K2 to have little odor, especially after warm up. Yamalube has little odor as well. Mobile 1 smells a bit like burning plastic at first, but that goes away when the engine gets warm.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Didn't get to try yamalube yet. R50 is a little strong with no breeze. K2 is probably the least offensive to me. This Mobil I didn't get enough run time yesterday to say if there's a smell or not. It had half a tank of VP and K2 left when I added pump gas and Mobil to top off.


 I'm curious how K2 and Mobil will lube and look in the lower end compared to R50 and 800.


----------



## HuskStihl

Does the h1r make all saws slower at 32:1, or is it just too thick for the Autotune to maximize results


----------



## Andyshine77

HuskStihl said:


> Does the h1r make all saws slower at 32:1, or is it just too thick for the Autotune to maximize results


We don't have a clue what the real issue is there. I suspect a combination of a few things, not just the fact H1R has different combustion properties. 

We simply cannot form any real conclusion from theses comparisons. Other than demonstrating they all provide adequate lubrication, we have learned little to nothing IMHO. 

I still appreciate the effort, and find it intriguing, nonetheless.


----------



## windthrown

All this talk of oil. Boooooring. Time to spice this thread up a with the new sig photo of my DPMS Panther.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> I'm curious how K2 and Mobil will lube and look in the lower end compared to R50 and 800.


K2 is good on coating. The 390 I just tore apart earlier was covered wet on the inside. It was running klotz super. Last time I used it was ripping ash for cants. I'll try to get some run time or at least pull the muffler on something running mobil.


----------



## Ron660

windthrown said:


> All this talk of oil. Boooooring. Time to spice this thread up a with the new sig photo of my DPMS Panther.
> 
> 
> View attachment 434088


 I'd like to have one of those in a heavy barrel 260. I really like 6.5mm bullets.


----------



## Ron660

HuskStihl said:


> Does the h1r make all saws slower at 32:1, or is it just too thick for the Autotune to maximize results


 800 off-road is thicker than H1R.


----------



## Sagetown

My Vietnam sidekick


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> 800 off-road is thicker than H1R.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> 800 off-road is thicker than H1R.





Moparmyway said:


>


Yep. It's just not suited for sass or small bikes.


----------



## Moparmyway

It must be me ................ H1R seemed to be the thickest stuff I ever used. 
I never took notice that 800 off road was thicker than H1R .......................
I will go drink some a little later and see which goes down easier


----------



## HuskStihl

It always took me a long time to get belray out of the mixing cup. Rinse with gas over and over, still residue left. I really can't tell a difference in performance between belray and cheap semi-synthetic stuff. The insides look really clean with belray. I'm gonna try yamalube, but honestly only because of the cool purple color, and my undying loyalty to yamabond4!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Honda HP2 is a cool looking blue color, better than any other blue oil


----------



## Rx7man

I've been using Lucas snowmobile full synthetic at 32 or 40:1 and like it so far.. I'm going to be yanking the top end off my 'wild' 65 once again here before too long and taking a look at how it's wearing... That P&C was in the worst condition of my collection, which is why I risked a lot of experimentation on it... I'm estimating the saw is putting out about 60% more power than stock, and about 40% more revs in the cut, so it's definitely getting worked


----------



## KenJax Tree

Honda HP2 40:1





Yamalube 2R 40:1


----------



## Rx7man

The first looks like weak koolaide, the second looks like a wine


----------



## CR500

yamalube!!!!

the color is cool but not HP2 cool lol


----------



## HuskStihl

KenJax Tree said:


> Honda HP2 40:1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yamalube 2R 40:1


Oohhh.......so pretty! I don't care if they even work!


----------



## KenJax Tree

HuskStihl said:


> Oohhh.......so pretty! I don't care if they even work!


Lol they both work excellent


----------



## gunnusmc03

HuskStihl said:


> It always took me a long time to get belray out of the mixing cup. Rinse with gas over and over, still residue left. I really can't tell a difference in performance between belray and cheap semi-synthetic stuff. The insides look really clean with belray. I'm gonna try yamalube, but honestly only because of the cool purple color, and my undying loyalty to yamabond4!



Mixing hr1 up in the winter was always a treat.


----------



## Andyshine77

R50 is by far the thickest 2t oil I've used.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> R50 is by far the thickest 2t oil I've used.


It seems to be close to H1R from what I remember. I'm out of R50 and have way too much oil here to order more. I'm going to use a good bit of this mobil next.


----------



## mdavlee

390 piston top. Unknown amount of runtime. Carbon is starting to come loose now.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> 390 piston top. Unknown amount of runtime. Carbon is starting to come loose now.
> 
> View attachment 434220


That's from R50?


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> That's from R50?


No clue. I've ran a couple tanks with super through it. It was black before I got it.


----------



## LowVolt

We are now analyzing the "coolness" of oil when mixed.

Yup, best oil thread EVER!!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

LowVolt said:


> We are now analyzing the "coolness" of oil when mixed.
> 
> Yup, best oil thread EVER!!!!


Lol i responded to Jon's post about Yamalube being a cool purple with pictures.


----------



## Rx7man

I run my saws on straight purple farm gas.. no need for the 2 stroke mix to get the cool color!


----------



## wyk

windthrown said:


> All this talk of oil. Boooooring. Time to spice this thread up a with the new sig photo of my DPMS Panther.
> 
> 
> View attachment 434088



JP Enterprises varmint set up and 1996 Cadillac Sedan DeVille. AR is usually lubed with a combo CLP and TetraGun oil - no purple.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> No clue. I've ran a couple tanks with super through it. It was black before I got it.


I still dont think a piston should be carbon free? I dont get where folks think an oil should burn without a buildup / byproduct? I still think any of it will buildup if the saw is tuned properly. This is 800t through my 461 with about 8 gallons


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 390 piston top. Unknown amount of runtime. Carbon is starting to come loose now.
> 
> View attachment 434220


So Mike u think the Super is cutting the carbon?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> So Mike u think the Super is cutting the carbon?


Could have been the VP fuel. I don't think super is going to clean it. I've used up all the super so now it's mobil with pump gas.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I still dont think a piston should be carbon free? I dont get where folks think an oil should burn without a buildup / byproduct? I still think any of it will buildup if the saw is tuned properly. This is 800t through my 461 with about 8 gallonsView attachment 434265


A piston should have carbon on it. A four stroke motors pistons have carbon on them. No carbon means your too rich.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I personally don't care for R50 because of it's limitations in the cold (but I'll still test it...never know!). Per klotz it's good down to about -15ish. While 800 is good down to -54...guys up in Canada run 800 a lot. (per Motul...no reason to doubt this claim though)
> 
> Not that I would cut wood in anything under say -20 that is about my own personal limitation lol But the above info certainly leads me to believe that r50 would be less of a performer in even the mild cold.
> 
> 
> My concern with K2 is the PIB in it, being a health hazard. Why breathe the stuff, if 800 does the same thing and doesn't have PIB in it.


What health Hazzard are you referring to?
Breathing exhaust is a bad thing and the oil is the least of your worries.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Things have moved along somewhat since ww2, just like oil ratios. LOL
> Thansk


Don't tell the Europeans that..


----------



## Rx7man

bwalker said:


> A piston should have carbon on it. A four stroke motors pistons have carbon on them. No carbon means your too rich.


or too hot or too lean!


----------



## bwalker

Rx7man said:


> or too hot or too lean!


Typical a two stroke piston that's run lean will have lots of deposits. Unless it's gotten hot enough to start melting the crown away and then it will appear sand blasted.


----------



## Trx250r180

Why would my 70cc saw with a 32 inch bar feel like it makes more power tuned rich ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Why would my 70cc saw with a 32 inch bar feel like it makes more power tuned rich ?


Two strokes typically make more torque under heavy load when ran a bit rich. It's for this reason that bike carbs have power jet carbs that dump a little more fuel in from half to full throttle.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Two strokes typically make more torque under heavy load when ran a bit rich. It's for this reason that bike carbs have power jet carbs that dump a little more fuel in from half to full throttle.


However, if your piston is silver your more than a little rich.


----------



## Trx250r180

Thanks sir ,i also noticed if lean the low side a bit ,the throttle response is real quick ,but harder to start ,works nice when limbing though with a bigger saw ,my plugs are pretty clean still ,and looking down the exhaust port piston top is dry ,but not clean /washed ,i need to recheck after yamalube now ,before try the mobil oil ,the dumonde has been the cleanest and best throttle response i have found so far ,but the price is also the highest of them all .


----------



## Rx7man

bwalker said:


> Two strokes typically make more torque under heavy load when ran a bit rich. It's for this reason that bike carbs have power jet carbs that dump a little more fuel in from half to full throttle.


This is true of all engines.. Holley carbs had power valves that dumped more fuel in under heavy load as well.. I think peak torque occurs around 12.5:1 Air/Fuel ratio, Stoichiometric is 14.7:1, and best economy is around 15.5:1 IIRC... a lot of forced induction engines run richer than 12.5:1 for the additional cooling of the extra fuel, you don't lose very much power going down into the 11's, but you certainly save your engine.


----------



## nitehawk55

Is Redbull trying the Motul 800 T2 off road or the 800 T2 road racing ? According to what I have read the off road is for up to 250cc and the road racing for over 250cc .


----------



## redbull660

dumonde, mobil 1, 800 off road, R50, H1R , Saber , K2 , 2R , & Ultra


----------



## porsche965

I wonder if the bookies in Vegas would run line on these 9?


----------



## bwalker

I would really like to see this test run with a carb equip saw tuned to a setpoint.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> We don't have a clue what the real issue is there. I suspect a combination of a few things, not just the fact H1R has different combustion properties.
> 
> We simply cannot form any real conclusion from theses comparisons. Other than demonstrating they all provide adequate lubrication, we have learned little to nothing IMHO.
> 
> I still appreciate the effort, and find it intriguing, nonetheless.


I have seen enough anecdotal evidence across multiple applications to suggest that H1R does indeed inhibit combustion. The Ultra light test pointed in this direction as well.
Even if it didn't do this I still wouldn't run the stuff as its simply not that great.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Could have been the VP fuel. I don't think super is going to clean it. I've used up all the super so now it's mobil with pump gas.


Ya Im thinkin quality fuel has alot to do with it too


----------



## nitehawk55

redbull660 said:


> dumonde, mobil 1, 800 off road, R50, H1R , Saber , K2 , 2R , & Ultra



Great , thanks....kind of lost track .
What is the difference between the 2 types of Motul 800 ? I see the road racing maybe has more esters in it and is dyed differently (red vs orange )

I already use Saber at 40:1 so I'm going to try both types of the 800 in both M-tronic/auto-tune and old school saws I have just for the heck of it . Local bike shop carries both .
I may tweak the ratio a bit heading toward 50:1 , I won't run richer than 40:1


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I would really like to see this test run with a carb equip saw tuned to a setpoint.



as in a 660 tuned to 2800 idle 13200 top using a fast tach?

someone will complain it's not four stroking correctly or this ratio was too rich or that ratio too lean, or that it should of been tuned in the wood... I'll let the computer do the work. It is unbiased and looking for the same thing all the time.



nitehawk55 said:


> Great , thanks....kind of lost track .
> What is the difference between the 2 types of Motul 800 ? I see the road racing maybe has more esters in it and is dyed differently (red vs orange )



*800 off road *

https://www.motul.com/ca/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/800-2t-factory-line-off-road--2

https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77816/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420014

*800 road racing*

https://www.motul.com/ca/en-US/prod...-road-racing--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21

https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77818/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Road_Racing_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420312


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I would really like to see this test run with a carb equip saw tuned to a setpoint.



Would you care to expand upon the "setpoint?" Would that be the same rpm for each oil?


----------



## nitehawk55

OK , didn't check out the tech sheets . Looks like the off road would be the best choice for saws for sure . The 800 road racing version looks to be a bit stout in viscosity , flashpoint and recommended mix ratio .

Just printed off Amsoil Saber too .
Viscosity and flash point are way lower than the Motul 800 off road.....Hmmmmm


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I have seen enough anecdotal evidence across multiple applications to suggest that H1R does indeed inhibit combustion. The Ultra light test pointed in this direction as well.
> Even if it didn't do this I still wouldn't run the stuff as its simply not that great.



I know it does, I experienced the effects first hand, I was simply alluding to the fact there was more to the issue than just the oil itself.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Don't tell the Europeans that..


I though you might have at least provided a photo to back up your doehead claim about high scopes being common in EU these days! Mr stihl, Mr husqvarna & Mr KTM don't seem to follow your outdated ideas either on oil ratios.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I though you might have at least provided a photo to back up your doehead claim about high scopes being common in EU these days! Mr stihl, Mr husqvarna & Mr KTM don't seem to follow your outdated ideas either on oil ratios.


Do a search yourself.. you will be wrong per usual..


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> as in a 660 tuned to 2800 idle 13200 top using a fast tach?
> 
> someone will complain it's not four stroking correctly or this ratio was too rich or that ratio too lean, or that it should of been tuned in the wood... I'll let the computer do the work. It is unbiased and looking for the same thing all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> *800 off road *
> 
> https://www.motul.com/ca/en-US/products/oils-lubricants/800-2t-factory-line-off-road--2
> 
> https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77816/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Off_Road_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420014
> 
> *800 road racing*
> 
> https://www.motul.com/ca/en-US/prod...-road-racing--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21
> 
> https://www.motul.com/system/product_descriptions/technical_data_sheets/77818/original/800_2T_Factory_Line_Road_Racing_TDS_(GB).pdf?1388420312


I guess what I am getting at is I don't trust that the Autotune system is consistent. Just a gut feeling I have.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I know it does, I experienced the effects first hand, I was simply alluding to the fact there was more to the issue than just the oil itself.


More to the issue?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> More to the issue?



We already went through all this, no reason to do so again.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Do a search yourself.. you will be wrong per usual..


We're onto your BS stories if you hadn't noticed, if you can't provide some evidence it never happened! = BS


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> We're onto your BS stories if you hadn't noticed, if you can't provide some evidence it never happened! = BS


The only BS is between your ears..


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> We already went through all this, no reason to do so again.


PM me what your referring to?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> PM me what your referring to?



Tuning aka Mtronic system, operator error and so on.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The only BS is between your ears..


it looks like Google has failed you again & your attacking strategy is in full swing, once found out!


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I guess what I am getting at is I don't trust that the Autotune system is consistent.


I see it differently ............. maybe because I get to operate a 661.

The M-Tronic is one consistant mutha-scratcher ................ it just takes 2 tanks to "home in" on what the saw is being asked to do.

Why ???? I dont know, but I do know that after the first tank of consistant cutting, my 661 runs soooo much better.

New day, different tree, same gas ............... takes the second tank to "home in" on what the saw is being asked to do

Maybe I am crazy ................... maybe not, just what I noticed with my 661


----------



## Bwildered

Trx250r180 said:


> Mine gets the crap beat out of it ,when it wont cut at all i take it to the bottom of the silvey grinder to make it sharp enough to cut  If it gets too bad ,take the tip ,and clamp it in a vise and bust it off ,and the snap on guy gives me another one .yes the blade is half ground off ,lol View attachment 433927


"That's not a knife"


reindeer said:


> We do:



"Now that's a knife"
Thansk


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> it looks like Google has failed you again & your attacking strategy is in full swing, once found out!


I don't need to google, but clearly you do.


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> Don't tell the Europeans that..


coming from someone who believes that Nosler partition is the gold bullet..


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> coming from someone who believes that Nosler partition is the gold bullet..


I'm not then only one with that opinion and many that hold the same opinion have alot more expiereance than you or I will ever have.
I also never said they are gold. I said they are the gold standard. Every bullet test I have ever seen has partitions in the mix.


----------



## wyk

There is nowhere near the amount of ammunition component selection here in Europe that we have stateside. Not even close.

One of my favorite things to do was put a 110 grain VMAX on top of a 308 case, seated as long as possible on a compressed load of RL15, and use it on large varmints and rabbits. I had one prairie dog fly nearly 20 feet into the air when hit with that load at 50 yards. And if you hit a mound full of dogs, the shrapnel often took care of many of them.

9mm, 22BR moly NoslerBT, 243AI, 70 grain Nosler BT, 308 w/ 110 grain VMAX, 243AI w some sort of long range bullet I forget what it was.


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> I'm not then only one with that opinion and many that hold the same opinion have alot more expiereance than you or I will ever have.
> I also never said they are gold. I said they are the gold standard. Every bullet test I have ever seen has partitions in the mix.


They may be a gold standard over there.. We have one old fart over here who used to write the same nonsens in magazines, over a decade he compared new premium bullets against nosler partition, but he have stopped doing it now, thank goodness.
As standard, if we always compare with a standard from 48, the rate of progression would stopped over time, it's that simple.

Speaking about europeans, they sure know how to make bolt action rifles for hunting in Europe.


----------



## Tor R

reindeer said:


> There is nowhere near the amount of ammunition component selection here in Europe that we have stateside. Not even close.


That is very true, special on the powder selection.
Just one place in Norway sell Hodgon powder, while there is probleby 1000 who sell Norma powder


----------



## wyk

Tor R said:


> That is very true, special on the powder selection.
> Just one place in Norway sell Hodgon powder, while there is probleby 1000 who sell Norma powder



All my 308 cases were Norma or Lapua.


----------



## bwalker

reindeer said:


> All my 308 cases were Norma or Lapua.


Lapua makes great brass. Sadly they no longer make 300 win mag brass.


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> They may be a gold standard over there.. We have one old fart over here who used to write the same nonsens in magazines, over a decade he compared new premium bullets against nosler partition, but he have stopped doing it now, thank goodness.
> As standard, if we always compare with a standard from 48, the rate of progression would stopped over time, it's that simple.
> 
> Speaking about europeans, they sure know how to make bolt action rifles for hunting in Europe.


Many bullets have came out since 1948, very few have the same blend of penetration and the ability to kill quickly. Then there is the consistency issue. They work boringly well.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I don't need to google, but clearly you do.


Of course I do! But then again why should I have to google something to prove what you said is fact, when your the one who made up a BS story that the Europeans commonly set up rifles that way, when in fact it was clearly obvious that it was set up for some one with a physical impediment, it boils down to the well known fact that you can't google commonsense & you have clearly proven that.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Lapua makes great brass. Sadly they no longer make 300 win mag brass.


Try Nosler custom brass


----------



## Ron660

reindeer said:


> There is nowhere near the amount of ammunition component selection here in Europe that we have stateside. Not even close.
> 
> One of my favorite things to do was put a 110 grain VMAX on top of a 308 case, seated as long as possible on a compressed load of RL15, and use it on large varmints and rabbits. I had one prairie dog fly nearly 20 feet into the air when hit with that load at 50 yards. And if you hit a mound full of dogs, the shrapnel often took care of many of them.
> 
> 9mm, 22BR moly NoslerBT, 243AI, 70 grain Nosler BT, 308 w/ 110 grain VMAX, 243AI w some sort of long range bullet I forget what it was.


Ever harvest any deer with that 243AI?


----------



## Tor R

reindeer said:


> All my 308 cases were Norma or Lapua.


i've used both brand, Lapua is the best one after my opinion. If I cant get it I normally buy Norma, easy to get here in Norway.
Brass I never buy again are winchester and remington.


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> Many bullets have came out since 1948, very few have the same blend of penetration and the ability to kill quickly. Then there is the consistency issue. They work boringly well.


true, but things changed after the bonded bullet came, it"s like two decade ago.


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> true, but things changed after the bonded bullet came, it"s like two decade ago.


That would greatly depend on which bonded bullet. Some are decent, some suck.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Try Nosler custom brass


Its soft junk made by federal.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Of course I do! But then again why should I have to google something to prove what you said is fact, when your the one who made up a BS story that the Europeans commonly set up rifles that way, when in fact it was clearly obvious that it was set up for some one with a physical impediment, it boils down to the well known fact that you can't google commonsense & you have clearly proven that.


What I said was completely true. And I don't feel the need to prove anything to a dumb azz like you..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> What I said was completely true. And I don't feel the need to prove anything to a dumb azz like you..


don't worry about me, just try to prove it to everybody else instead of going down the insulting wanker path. It won't be hard if it's true.


----------



## bwalker




----------



## Trx250r180

What kind of oil is good for a the wood on a gun ?


----------



## bwalker

Wood has no place on a working gun..


----------



## Moparmyway

At least he is keeping it oil related .............................................. why not induldge him ??


----------



## KG441c

Renaissance Wax


----------



## wyk

Ron660 said:


> Ever harvest any deer with that 243AI?



The 243AI was only chambered in my F CLass BR rifle. That rifle weighs a LOT, and carried a LightForce 12-42X scope(which in itself isn't very light). It's not much of a deer rifle. I recall using one VLD on a coyote out to 460 yards or so. But that's about it. At anything short of 300 yards, you would want to shoot the deer in the neck or head - it was very explosive even with VLD's. I was seeing 4100 fps+ on the Chrony with 70 grain noslers. So that rifle only came out near the end of the day after the varmints decided to hide.

Having said that, I had a short stint experimenting with 110 grain VMAX's out of an LTR in 300 SAUM. I had to shorten the chamber and shave the necks to get it shoot sub MOA. It was only stable about 90% of the time. The rest of the time they didn't make it to 100 meters before exploding. You could often see almost a vapor trail effect as the bullet went down range. The recoil out of such a light weight rifle even with 110 grain loads was nothing I care to experience during a day of varminting. So I went to 165 grain bullets and saved her mostly for 'tactical' stuff.

Speaking of partitions, the last deer I shot was with a 95 grain Nosler partition at about 150 yards out of a 6mm rem in a Ruger #1(one of my favorite deer rifles for how short and gorgeous they are). That bullet leaves that Ruger at 3200 fps or so. When it meets a deer, it is devastating. I hit it quartered towards me. The bullet entered the front left upper thigh, went through the heart, and exited out the far side. The exit hole was larger than my fist. The deer reared up, and collapsed on the spot.


----------



## bwalker

reindeer said:


> The 243AI was only chambered in my F CLass BR rifle. That rifle weighs a LOT, and carried a LightForce 12-42X scope(which in itself isn't very light). It's not much of a deer rifle. I recall using one VLD on a coyote out to 460 yards or so. But that's about it. At anything short of 300 yards, you would want to shoot the deer in the neck or head - it was very explosive even with VLD's. I was seeing 4100 fps+ on the Chrony with 70 grain noslers. So that rifle only came out near the end of the day after the varmints decided to hide.
> 
> Having said that, I had a short stint experimenting with 110 grain VMAX's out of an LTR in 300 SAUM. I had to shorten the chamber and shave the necks to get it shoot sub MOA. It was only stable about 90% of the time. The rest of the time they didn't make it to 100 meters before exploding. You could often see almost a vapor trail effect as the bullet went down range. The recoil out of such a light weight rifle even with 110 grain loads was nothing I care to experience during a day of varminting. So I went to 165 grain bullets and saved her mostly for 'tactical' stuff.
> 
> Speaking of partitions, the last deer I shot was with a 95 grain Nosler partition at about 150 yards out of a 6mm rem in a Ruger #1(one of my favorite deer rifles for how short and gorgeous they are). That bullet leaves that Ruger at 3200 fps or so. When it meets a deer, it is devastating. I hit it quartered towards me. The bullet entered the front left upper thigh, went through the heart, and exited out the far side. The exit hole was larger than my fist. The deer reared up, and collapsed on the spot.


Yea, but Noslers suck...


----------



## Tor R

Trx250r180 said:


> What kind of oil is good for a the wood on a gun ?


I've used CCL traditional gunstock oil finishing kit.
I bought a Steyr Mannlicher (full stock), it's 13 year since I oilpolish it, have never needed to do it again.
I see if I can get the time to take a picture of her.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Wood has no place on a working gun..*


You can't be serious??
I don't see any reason why a "working gun" has to be ugly... and there ain't nothin' uglier than synthetics and stainless steel on any gun.
I reckon you think those fish lure glow-worm sights on handguns are "cool" also?? 
*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> You can't be serious??
> I don't see any reason why a "working gun" has to be ugly... and there ain't nothin' uglier than synthetics and stainless steel on any gun.
> I reckon you think those fish lure glow-worm sights on handguns are "cool" also??
> *


Wood changes impact often and is heavy.. not mention the fact that it looks like hell pretty quick if your actually hunting.
I have a a half dozen wood guns, but they are all family heirloons and rarely used.


----------



## LowVolt




----------



## blsnelling

LowVolt said:


> View attachment 434653


Self portrait?


----------



## NWCoaster

Trx250r180 said:


> What kind of oil is good for a the wood on a gun ?


Definately a GaryWay product of some kind.... I think the origional GaryGoo might be best.


----------



## LowVolt




----------



## blsnelling

Was that your Halloween costume?


----------



## LowVolt

Good work men......


----------



## NWCoaster

Congrats on being the first guy on page 300!!! , but...... that picture is seriously disturbing......


----------



## wyk

bwalker said:


> Yea, but Noslers suck...



Funny - that's exactly what the deer said.


----------



## HuskStihl

Belray got a cooler bottle since I last bought some!


----------



## LowVolt

NWCoaster said:


> Congrats on being the first guy on page 300!!! , but...... that picture is seriously disturbing......


----------



## mdavlee

I'm only on page 120?


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *Wood changes impact often and is heavy.*



You read the words of too many self appointed "experts" in gun publications.
No doubt you mount those large objective len, big-azz, variable power scopes on your rifles... and then complain about the weight of a wooden handle 
Yeah, I'm laughin' at ya'‼ Make no mistake.

*


----------



## bwalker

Whitespider said:


> You read the words of too many self appointed "experts" in gun publications.
> No doubt you mount those large objective len, big-azz, variable power scopes on your rifles... and then complain about the weight of a wooden handle
> Yeah, I'm laughin' at ya'‼ Make no mistake.
> 
> *


You ASSume alot...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Wood changes impact often and is heavy.. not mention the fact that it looks like hell pretty quick if your actually hunting.
> I have a a half dozen wood guns, but they are all family heirloons and rarely used.




I would think Carlos Hathcock would disagree with that.

But there is some truth to what your saying. But a mcmillan HS other fiber glass & synthetic stocks aren't exactly perfect either. Nor metal such as AI. Wood, synthetic, metal, the gun should be properly bedded. Once this is done they both have advantages and disadvantages. 

All can be heavy
All can look like hell
Impact change - if bedded properly I completely disagree.


----------



## Whitespider

bwalker said:


> *You ASSume alot...*


Yep...
*


----------



## Justsaws

Trx250r180 said:


> What kind of oil is good for a the wood on a gun ?



Depends on the wood and purpose of the stock. In any case all of the oils should be applied at 1:32, after a glazing of 32:1. I'm fairly certain that some folks in this thread probably paint over the walnut though, softens the checking keeps from marring the calfskin firing gloves.

Fairly certain it is time to post up photos of golf equipment.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I would think Carlos Hathcock would disagree with that.
> 
> But there is some truth to what your saying. But a mcmillan HS other fiber glass & synthetic stocks aren't exactly perfect either. Nor metal such as AI. Wood, synthetic, metal, the gun should be properly bedded. Once this is done they both have advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> All can be heavy
> All can look like hell
> Impact change - if bedded properly I completely disagree.


Carlos would have used something other than wood had it been available to him..
A properly bedded McMillan is a thing of beauty. I have one thats seem thousands of rounds and has never changed impact once.
Then only advantage would has is it looks pretty.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> Carlos would have used something other than wood had it been available to him..
> A properly bedded McMillan is a thing of beauty. I have one thats seem thousands of rounds and has never changed impact once.
> Then only advantage would has is it looks pretty.


That's more BS!! Thousands of rounds and never changed. You must use barrels that are made of unubtanium!!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I would think Carlos Hathcock would disagree with that.
> 
> But there is some truth to what your saying. But a mcmillan HS other fiber glass & synthetic stocks aren't exactly perfect either. Nor metal such as AI. Wood, synthetic, metal, the gun should be properly bedded. Once this is done they both have advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> All can be heavy
> All can look like hell
> Impact change - if bedded properly I completely disagree.


Carlos would have used something other than wood had it been available to him..
A properly bedded McMillan is a thing of beauty. I have one thats seem thousands of rounds and has never changed impact once.
Then only advantage would has is it looks pretty.


Effs said:


> That's more BS!! Thousands of rounds and never changed. You must use barrels that are made of unubtanium!!


Krieger .223..


----------



## NWCoaster

Best stuff I have ever used on guns. Flashes off and leaves a dry lube behind, super slippery and does not attract residue like typical CLP. Love this stuff. Has excellent corrosion resistance also, and safe on plastics.


----------



## Trx250r180

Yamalube 2r .............40 to 1 in my string trimmer ,had it all dialed in on carb ,put 32 to 1 in ,it was a dog and idled high ,going from 40 to 1 to 32 to 1 i had to tweak all 3 screws to make it run and spool up again


----------



## redbull660

6,000!!! lol

do I hear 7k?


----------



## big t double

redbull660 said:


> 6,000!!! lol
> 
> do I hear 7k?


congrats on starting the longest stupidest thread ever hahahahaha


----------



## HuskStihl

Trx250r180 said:


> Yamalube 2r .............40 to 1 in my string trimmer ,had it all dialed in on carb ,put 32 to 1 in ,it was a dog and idled high ,going from 40 to 1 to 32 to 1 i had to tweak all 3 screws to make it run and spool up again


Change to belray at 32:1 and you'll have to retune again.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Carlos would have used something other than wood had it been available to him..
> A properly bedded McMillan is a thing of beauty. I have one thats seem thousands of rounds and has never changed impact once.
> Then only advantage would has is it looks pretty.


Savage bedded in a McMillan. Awesome stock


----------



## Trx250r180

HuskStihl said:


> Change to belray at 32:1 and you'll have to retune again.


I never could get the trimmer to run right off 32 to 1 belray .was always a dog for power ,and idled high no matter where i adjusted the carb .


----------



## windthrown

NWCoaster said:


> Congrats on being the first guy on page 300!!! , but...... that picture is seriously disturbing......



Oh, for a second there I thought it said congrats on being the fusty gay on page 300. That TV in diapers with the toy gun and all. Yes, veddy disturbing. Would get shot in many places. Then we could have more riots. Except he is white. *shrug*

Is there a statement being made there? I am at a loss.


----------



## HuskStihl

Mine runs fine on belray. I did remove the limiters tho


----------



## Trx250r180

HuskStihl said:


> Mine runs fine on belray. I did remove the limiters tho


Mine ran fine ,but it sounded like your saws ............


----------



## windthrown

Justsaws said:


> Fairly certain it is time to post up photos of golf equipment.



I lost my golf ball out here someplace. Can you help me find it?


----------



## windthrown

Anybody got any hash oil to go with this? And what is the best hash oil, anyway? This is an oil thread, right?


----------



## NWCoaster

windthrown said:


> Oh, for a second there I thought it said congrats on being the fusty gay on page 300. That TV in diapers with the toy gun and all. Yes, veddy disturbing. Would get shot in many places. Then we could have more riots. Except he is white. *shrug*
> 
> Is there a statement being made there? I am at a loss.


 NEVER trust a Clown.... those things freak me the F out..... Lol.


----------



## mdavlee

HuskStihl said:


> Mine runs fine on belray. I did remove the limiters tho


All that extra compression pushes that thick goo around easier[emoji13]


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> 6,000!!! lol
> 
> do I hear 7k?


By the time the discussion is about which toilet paper doesn't chafe your ass we should be close to 7K


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> By the time the discussion is about which toilet paper doesn't chafe your ass we should be close to 7K


Charmin double quilt


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> View attachment 434792
> 
> Savage bedded in a McMillan. Awesome stock


McMillan pretty much has the fiberglass/ carbon fiber stock market cornered. There are other good makes like Manners, but none have the variety of patterns.
H&S are complete crap in comparision.


----------



## KenJax Tree

So i guess i should sell my Browning's with walnut on them then[emoji22]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> So i guess i should sell my Browning's with walnut on them then[emoji22]


I have a nice Citori 20 ga and my great grand pa's Belgium sweet 16. 
I'd rather not destroy the things hunting grouse or ducks, so mt benelli SBE gets the nod.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> McMillan pretty much has the fiberglass/ carbon fiber stock market cornered. There are other good makes like Manners, but none have the variety of patterns.
> H&S are complete crap in comparision.


I have the H&S green spiderweb on my Reminton 700 milspec 5r and like it


----------



## HuskStihl

Trx250r180 said:


> Mine ran fine ,but it sounded like your saws ............


Man, that must be a bad-assed trimma


----------



## windthrown

KenJax Tree said:


> So i guess i should sell my Browning's with walnut on them then[emoji22]



Yah, same with my Marlin 30-30 and my Enfield .303. They are both made with wood stocks! Except I like them that way. I detest the new Marlins with the cheesy plastic stocks.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Wood has no place on a working gun..


My wood stock Weatherby mark V with a krieger#5 contour has never shifted. I've hunted in rain with no issues. I also have a McMillan HTG stock. It's super tough. I have another custom wood stock (AA black walnut) on a 22 rimfire squirrel rifle with a match Broughton barrel. Zero shifting issues.


----------



## windthrown




----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Its soft junk made by federal.


My buddy that won State in 600 yd prone using Nosler brass would disagree. It's extremely consistent.


----------



## windthrown

bwalker...


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I have a nice Citori 20 ga and my great grand pa's Belgium sweet 16.
> I'd rather not destroy the things hunting grouse or ducks, so mt benelli SBE gets the nod.


In my younger days I hunted squirrels and birds with a browning auto-5 in 20 magnum. Pretty gun but didn't have the power of my Dad's old Remington 870 12 gauge.


----------



## Big_Wood

why doesn't everyone run castrol super 2 stroke? it's stihl ultra only half the cost. i ran it for damn near 1o years at 32:1 before i joined AS. that said, i like lucas even if they are known for other shitty oils. i think their 2 stroke oil is down right acceptable.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

what kind of oil should i use when honing small engine blocks and jugs with my drill press
this is a oil thread right???


----------



## RedFir Down

westcoaster90 said:


> i like lucas even if they are known for other shitty oils. i think their 2 stroke oil is down right acceptable.


I dont know why Lucas has a bad following here but personally I think Lucas formulates a good product..... I dont know, maybe im the ignorant one.


----------



## Big_Wood

jakewells said:


> what kind of oil should i use when honing small engine blocks and jugs with my drill press
> this is a oil thread right???
> View attachment 434936



there's a secret formula for that i won't give out along with my 2 stroke oil. i've been lying to you guys all along  i know what oils about and have been using what is best for years. you idiots have to debate every single oil on the market. if you knew what i knew you all would have an easier life to live


----------



## Big_Wood

RedFir Down said:


> I dont know why Lucas has a bad following here but personally I think Lucas formulates a good product..... I dont know, maybe im the ignorant one.



lucas do make some pretty shitty 4 stroke oils. they also make about the shittiest diesel fuel conditioner on the market. i do like their 2 stroke oil though.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

westcoaster90 said:


> there's a secret formula for that i won't give out along with my 2 stroke oil. i've been lying to you guys all along  i know what oils about and have been using what is best for years. you idiots have to debate every single oil on the market. if you knew what i knew you all would have an easier life to live


well why did you even comment then


----------



## Big_Wood

jakewells said:


> well why did you even comment then



cause i like messing with you half wits that think running the absolute best oil is mandatory. fallers kill a saw in a year or 2 running the shittiest oil on the market. guys in the firewood hack market are ****'n retarded to even worry about it  run the **** the local gas station with the cheapest fuel has for sale. it ain't gonna make a difference for you PSP's. that saw will outlive you.


----------



## Andyshine77

westcoaster90 said:


> why doesn't everyone run castrol super 2 stroke? it's stihl ultra only half the cost. i ran it for damn near 1o years at 32:1 before i joined AS. that said, i like lucas even if they are known for other shitty oils. i think their 2 stroke oil is down right acceptable.


Because it smells like ****, just like ultra. 

Fyi I've been running Yamalube R2 for the past few weeks. Burns clean aka almost no smell. However it doesn't cling to metal like the esters do and it's too thin for my taste. I'm going back to Motul 800 @50:1 in my blowers and trimmers, my saws will continue to see k2 or R50.

I personally will never try the Lucas oil. Too thin, it's injector oil IMHO.


----------



## Moparmyway

Andyshine77 said:


> Fyi I've been running Yamalube R2 for the past few weeks. Burns clean aka almost no smell. However it doesn't cling to metal like the esters do and it's too thin for my taste. I'm going back to Motul 800 @50:1 in my blowers and trimmers, my saws will continue to see k2 or R50..



I dont like how dry things look inside after a few weeks of downtime with the 2r ...................... maybe I was seeing things



Andyshine77 said:


> I personally will never try the Lucas oil. Too thin, it's injector oil IMHO.



Cant argue with some of the pictures thrown up in this thread that shows the "too thin" Lucas provides a nice oily coating inside @ 40:1

I ran some, nice and blue, dont smell bad eithor .................. its my backup 2 cycle oil. If I cant get any of my other top choices, Auto Barn or Pep Boys will have Lucas on their shelf


----------



## KenJax Tree

Moparmyway said:


> I dont like how dry things look inside after a few weeks of downtime with the 2r ...................... maybe I was seeing things
> 
> 
> 
> Cant argue with some of the pictures thrown up in this thread that shows the "too thin" Lucas provides a nice oily coating inside @ 40:1
> 
> I ran some, nice and blue, dont smell bad eithor .................. its my backup 2 cycle oil. If I cant get any of my other top choices, Auto Barn or Pep Boys will have Lucas on their shelf


Maybe its just harder to see the purple color against the bare metal than it is to see blue? idk i'm no oil guru and not even sure why i'm using Pro Honda HP2 now[emoji1]


----------



## HuskStihl

Moparmyway said:


> I dont like how dry things look inside after a few weeks of downtime with the 2r ...................... maybe I was seeing things


 My 2r hasn't even arrived yet, and now I'll have to pitch it.


----------



## Moparmyway

HuskStihl said:


> My 2r hasn't even arrived yet, and now I'll have to pitch it.


Hoping someone else would notice the same thing ........................ try it and see for yourself, then post up your opinion/findings after letting it sit a few weeks !!

Have to look inside, not through the exhaust 
I ran it with VP SEF


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> View attachment 434616
> View attachment 434617


Well done with the pics, with the top two there isn't much chance of heavy recoil coming from those small calibre rifles with no barrel swell forward of the breech & giving anybody a black eye, not really comparing apples with apples is it, the 3rd one is mounted high because of the size of the scope but not mounted rear wards much at all , when taking into consideration the ill fitting rear scope cover. The example in question was a gun with a medium recoil, high mounted scope easily clearing all seen obstacles by 25mm or so & mounted exceptionally rearwards, which is not very common anywhere & easily spotted as being uncommon.


----------



## Bwildered

windthrown said:


> bwalker...
> 
> View attachment 434908


I'm sure it can & will be stretched. LOL
Thansk


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Hoping someone else would notice the same thing ........................ try it and see for yourself, then post up your opinion/findings after letting it sit a few weeks !!
> 
> Have to look inside, not through the exhaust
> I ran it with VP SEF


Randy would be the one to ask as he has been using it for several quarts now. Mine didnt look any different than r50


----------



## Bwildered

westcoaster90 said:


> why doesn't everyone run castrol super 2 stroke? it's stihl ultra only half the cost. i ran it for damn near 1o years at 32:1 before i joined AS. that said, i like lucas even if they are known for other shitty oils. i think their 2 stroke oil is down right acceptable.


What about castrol TTS as well, it's recommended to be run at 50:1, and it is available in 20 litre containers for those who need bulk purchases for high use.
Thansk


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> Hoping someone else would notice the same thing ........................ try it and see for yourself, then post up your opinion/findings after letting it sit a few weeks !!
> 
> Have to look inside, not through the exhaust
> I ran it with VP SEF


Your saws sit for weeks ? ,Me soo sorry


----------



## hardpan

KG441c said:


> Randy would be the one to ask as he has been using it for several quarts now. Mine didnt look any different than r50



You beat me to it. I highly value a saw builders opinion especially when they know the history of the saw.


----------



## Big_Wood

hardpan said:


> You beat me to it. I highly value a saw builders opinion especially when they know the history of the saw.



i highly value real world forestry workers opinions. cookie cutters only know what the label tells them and way overthink oil.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Your saws sit for weeks ? ,Me soo sorry


Weed-wakker .......... saws sit for months


----------



## NWCoaster

westcoaster90 said:


> i highly value real world forestry workers opinions. cookie cutters only know what the label tells them and way overthink oil.


 Yup, I've seen what rocket surgeons some of our local loggers are..... bending the bar to change chains , running with no air filter " cause it cloggs up too quick", running crap fuel with crap oil...... etc.... yep, regular NASA guys....


----------



## Big_Wood

NWCoaster said:


> Yup, I've seen what rocket surgeons some of our local loggers are..... bending the bar to change chains , running with no air filter " cause it cloggs up too quick", running crap fuel with crap oil...... etc.... yep, regular NASA guys....



What I was getting at is despite all the abuse their saws last. If a guy here blows up a saw he either straight gassed it or it was an old wore out saw when he got it. I doubt anyone here has ever had a failure related to the oil they were using especially when doing what they do best..... Cutting cookies.


----------



## NWCoaster

westcoaster90 said:


> What I was getting at is despite all the abuse their saws last. If a guy here blows up a saw he either straight gassed it or it was an old wore out saw when he got it. I doubt anyone here has ever had a failure related to the oil they were using especially when doing what they do best..... Cutting cookies.


I agree, Probably true. I don't think I will ever wear out my saws for the most part unless I screw something up or the rubber parts just give it up from time served.


----------



## Andyshine77

westcoaster90 said:


> What I was getting at is despite all the abuse their saws last. If a guy here blows up a saw he either straight gassed it or it was an old wore out saw when he got it. I doubt anyone here has ever had a failure related to the oil they were using especially when doing what they do best..... Cutting cookies.


I can't dissigre with that. [emoji2]


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Well done with the pics, with the top two there isn't much chance of heavy recoil coming from those small calibre rifles with no barrel swell forward of the breech & giving anybody a black eye, not really comparing apples with apples is it, the 3rd one is mounted high because of the size of the scope but not mounted rear wards much at all , when taking into consideration the ill fitting rear scope cover. The example in question was a gun with a medium recoil, high mounted scope easily clearing all seen obstacles by 25mm or so & mounted exceptionally rearwards, which is not very common anywhere & easily spotted as being uncommon.


I have seen many euro guns like that and in calibers as big as 375 h&h. Not uncommon at all and partly driven by their preferable for large objective scopes.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> My buddy that won State in 600 yd prone using Nosler brass would disagree. It's extremely consistent.


Very consistent because it's sorted, but IME low on capacity and soft.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I can't dissigre with that. [emoji2]


Most of the saws yous we on this website look new.....like they are rarely used.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> What about castrol TTS as well, it's recommended to be run at 50:1, and it is available in 20 litre containers for those who need bulk purchases for high use.
> Thansk


I have heard from a reliable person that it's good stuff.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Because it smells like ****, just like ultra.
> 
> Fyi I've been running Yamalube R2 for the past few weeks. Burns clean aka almost no smell. However it doesn't cling to metal like the esters do and it's too thin for my taste. I'm going back to Motul 800 @50:1 in my blowers and trimmers, my saws will continue to see k2 or R50.
> 
> I personally will never try the Lucas oil. Too thin, it's injector oil IMHO.


Residual oil is a indication of oil ratio.... never had a problem with it not clinging.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> My wood stock Weatherby mark V with a krieger#5 contour has never shifted. I've hunted in rain with no issues. I also have a McMillan HTG stock. It's super tough. I have another custom wood stock (AA black walnut) on a 22 rimfire squirrel rifle with a match Broughton barrel. Zero shifting issues.


Your lucky.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I have the H&S green spiderweb on my Reminton 700 milspec 5r and like it


I have had several as well. Extremely heavy and very thick due to being made of cheap, chopped fiberglass instead of being hand laid like a Mcmillan.
Here is a H&S on a 375, a MCM on a 300 win and 300 ultra and a pacific research on a sako 25-06AI.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> View attachment 435074
> 
> I have had several as well. Extremely heavy and very thick due to being made of cheap, chopped fiberglass instead of being hand laid like a Mcmillan.
> Here is a H&S on a 375, a MCM on a 300 win and 300 ultra and a pacific research on a sako 25-06AI.


Ya I agree the H&S isnt the quality of McMillan but its not bad for the price


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ya I agree the H&S isnt the quality of McMillan but its not bad for the price


I actually think they are of lesser quality than a Bell and Carlson and B&B's are much cheaper.
It's a shame Pacific Research stocks are no loner made. I really liked them.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I actually think they are of lesser quality than a Bell and Carlson and B&B's are much cheaper.
> It's a shame Pacific Research stocks are no loner made. I really liked them.


The HS came on my 5r but if I buy a stock it will no doubt be a McMillan. I like the A5 McMillan in Woodland Camo pattern. My bud Ron660 has one. I wouldnt mind having a Obermeyer Custom with the A5 woodland camo


----------



## mdavlee

I would like to try a manners T5 or one of the modular chassis like AI


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> View attachment 435074
> 
> I have had several as well. Extremely heavy and very thick due to being made of cheap, chopped fiberglass instead of being hand laid like a Mcmillan.
> Here is a H&S on a 375, a MCM on a 300 win and 300 ultra and a pacific research on a sako 25-06AI.


Is that ipe decking ? I have fiberon brand ipe ,looks close to that stuff .


----------



## windthrown

Will running Lucas oil fix this problem?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Residual oil is a indication of oil ratio.... never had a problem with it not clinging.


It runs off like water. I simply prefer the low molecular weight and polarize ester based oils. I have no doubt R2 is fine, and I'll use up what I have.


----------



## NWCoaster

What about 2 stroke oil color.... has anybody tested whether orange colored mix would be better than say purple or blue. I know anything greenish colored is absoloute crap, JMHO....


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> Not uncommon at all and partly driven by their preferable for large objective scopes.


it's simple, light ability for hunting in late evening hours. I'll try to explain why there are huge objective scopes in Europe, and why they are populare.

Before it was always the 8X56mm who where the light king, 3-23X56 loosing a tad light ability due to more complex building compared to a fixed lense.

There is a formula on this light ability, if I remember correct it's this way, 56mm divided by 8X zoom = 7.
7 is a number where your eyes can see most in dark light. 42 mm divided by 7 gives 6X zoom as ideal. 32 mm gives 4,5X zoom as ideal. You see the picture where I am going now. 56mm is the king, going down to 42 it has less ability to let light come through for hunting late evening hours.

Decades ago they develop red dot for their 50-56mm lenses, not made for daylight, the dot is so weak that you can not see it in daylight, it was made as helper in the real tricky situations where it was so dark that your couldn't see the cross, but you could see the countur of the deer. You turned it on, slowly and not so much that it would blend your vision, and you could set a safe shot. I've shoot a couple deer in a situation like that, also a beever on 300 metre distanse with my 30-378 late hour.

I've had Doctor 1,5-6X42, aspherical lense, and a Zeiss Victory 3-12X56 on the same time.The huge lense provided me with at least 30 minutes extra shooting light, pluss the extra shooting light time with the red dot. There is a noticeable difference from 42mm to 56mm when it comes to light ability.


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> it's simple, light ability for hunting in late evening hours. I'll try to explain why there are huge objective scopes in Europe, and why they are populare.
> 
> Before it was always the 8X56mm who where the light king, 3-23X56 loosing a tad light ability due to more complex building compared to a fixed lense.
> 
> There is a formula on this light ability, if I remember correct it's this way, 56mm divided by 8X zoom = 7.
> 7 is a number where your eyes can see most in dark light. 42 mm divided by 7 gives 6X zoom as ideal. 32 mm gives 4,5X zoom as ideal. You see the picture where I am going now. 56mm is the king, going down to 42 it has less ability to let light come through for hunting late evening hours.
> 
> Decades ago they develop red dot for their 50-56mm lenses, not made for daylight, the dot is so weak that you can not see it in daylight, it was made as helper in the real tricky situations where it was so dark that your couldn't see the cross, but you could see the countur of the deer. You turned it on, slowly and not so much that it would blend your vision, and you could set a safe shot. I've shoot a couple deer in a situation like that, also a beever on 300 metre distanse with my 30-378 late hour.
> 
> I've had Doctor 1,5-6X42, aspherical lense, and a Zeiss Victory 3-12X56 on the same time.The huge lense provided me with at least 30 minutes extra shooting light, pluss the extra shooting light time with the red dot. There is a noticeable difference from 42mm to 56mm when it comes to light ability.


Here in yoooper land the late hunters just use lights, lol. Really with standard scopes legal hours are passed and can still see, so I have no use for 56mm objectives and the like.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Is that ipe decking ? I have fiberon brand ipe ,looks close to that stuff .


I can't remember what product it is other than it cost me an arm and a leg. It has held up well for 12 years and looks new after its yearly pressure wash.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It runs off like water. I simply prefer the low molecular weight and polarize ester based oils. I have no doubt R2 is fine, and I'll use up what I have.


I have never seen this. I have seen ester oils degrade over time when exposed to air/ moisture during storage.
I really like K2, but in all honesty it's a waste of money for a lowly chainsaw.


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> Here in yoooper land the late hunters just use lights, lol. Really with standard scopes legal hours are passed and can still see, so I have no use for 56mm objectives and the like.


lol then u have never hunted without light


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> lol then u have never hunted without light


The legal hours thing really makes it not an issue, unless your in heavy cover.
Hunting out west I have never felt the need for anything more than a 40mm objective.


----------



## Tor R

could you decribe when the legal hours are over there, and what different rules your guys have over there?


----------



## bwalker

The Department of Natural Resources sets a time for each day of the hunting season that sets when hunting may start and end for the day. It's set such that it is still light enough to see with a quality scope just prior too and just after legal hours.


----------



## windthrown

Screw lights. Use a Starlight scope! Of course hunting here after sunset is poaching.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I have never seen this. I have seen ester oils degrade over time when exposed to air/ moisture during storage.
> I really like K2, but in all honesty it's a waste of money for a lowly chainsaw.


Yes well they're my lowly chainsaws.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes well they're my lowly chainsaws.


Said in jest.. 
Honestly, most here should pic an oil based on how good it smells as they will never accumulate enough hours to realize any difference.


----------



## CR888

lts funny how people judge an oil on smell yet insist on running full synthetics with sulfur. lF l did run full symthetics, l'd want them to stink to know they won't cause blowby in record time.lol The sulfur is needed in full synthetics due to their inherrent nature.


----------



## bwalker

CR888 said:


> lts funny how people judge an oil on smell yet insist on running full synthetics with sulfur. lF l did run full symthetics, l'd want them to stink to know they won't cause blowby in record time.lol The sulfur is needed in full synthetics due to their inherrent nature.


Sulfur isn't added to synthetic two stroke oils or any other two stroke oil for that matter.


----------



## Justsaws

The most migratory thinnest oil film that still provides enough protection while producing the least build up at the cheapest price, with a dye that is easily visable...

Or

NASA inspired RedBull marketed thick and nasty Viagra in a bottle....

Or

Some guns and stuff...

Does anyone know what mix smells strongly like burning plastic at 50:1. Horrible smell, lingered long after stopped running the saw, affected the taste of delicious beverage and tasty smoke.


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> The Department of Natural Resources sets a time for each day of the hunting season that sets when hunting may start and end for the day. It's set such that it is still light enough to see with a quality scope just prior too and just after legal hours.


already there you have a huge different in hunting style and the less demand for a large high quality scoop.
Over here, it"s us, the hunters, who decide when the day start and stop.


----------



## bwalker

Tor R said:


> already there you have a huge different in hunting style and the less demand for a large high quality scoop.
> Over here, it"s us, the hunters, who decide when the day start and stop.


What country are you from?


----------



## CR888

bwalker said:


> Sulfur isn't added to synthetic two stroke oils or any other two stroke oil for that matter.


Sulfur is what causes glazing, piston varnish and the other nasties associated with full synthetics. The sulfur don't burn and is whats left behind causing loss of ring seal and blowby down the track. Throttle responce suffers too. Most guys who pull their muffler and go sheez look at that orange brown varnish on my piston........well they are looking at sulfur simple as that.


----------



## Tor R

bwalker said:


> What country are you from?


Norway


----------



## HuskStihl

Yamalube arrived. I mix 32:1 for my WWS 385's big end bearing. The 288 and 394 have more robust bottom ends (that sounds funny), but I doubt the extra oil will hurt. Everything else 2-stroke on my property I'm not emotionally attached to.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I have seen many euro guns like that and in calibers as big as 375 h&h. Not uncommon at all and partly driven by their preferable for large objective scopes.


you have you got a picture of that then? maybe it is a common S & M thing to get smacked in the eye by a heavy recoil rifle from a weirdly rear mounted scope, but I seriously doubt it, no matter where you reckon it is common.


----------



## bwalker

CR888 said:


> Sulfur is what causes glazing, piston varnish and the other nasties associated with full synthetics. The sulfur don't burn and is whats left behind causing loss of ring seal and blowby down the track. Throttle responce suffers too. Most guys who pull their muffler and go sheez look at that orange brown varnish on my piston........well they are looking at sulfur simple as that.


Sulfur isn't added to two cycle oil...


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> you have you got a picture of that then? maybe it is a common S & M thing to get smacked in the eye by a heavy recoil rifle from a weirdly rear mounted scope, but I seriously doubt it, no matter where you reckon it is common.


In don't handy, but give me a bit and I'll dig one out.


----------



## Trx250r180

Anyone know how to fix these lazer levels ? it is self leveling ,it self levels still for up and down ,but if i do it horizontal it will not find level anymore ,it worked when i got it real nice ,but now is useless ,just get a beeping alarm ,doing dirt work sucks without this working ,helpppppppp . sorry to derail the 13 other subjects going on .


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> In don't handy, but give me a bit and I'll dig one out.


Does anyone know if a Savage .308 win bolt action can be rechambered and rebarrelled to a 300 win mag?


----------



## wyk

I had Euro guns even when I was living back in Texas(mostly for squirrels)


----------



## wyk

KG441c said:


> Does anyone know if a Savage .308 win bolt action can be rechambered and rebarrelled to a 300 win mag?



The old 'long actions' could.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Does anyone know if a Savage .308 win bolt action can be rechambered and rebarrelled to a 300 win mag?





reindeer said:


> I had Euro guns even when I was living back in Texas(mostly for squirrels)


I had a steyr imported FN FAL. That was a hell of a squirrel gun!


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> Sulfur is what causes glazing, piston varnish and the other nasties associated with full synthetics. The sulfur don't burn and is whats left behind causing loss of ring seal and blowby down the track. Throttle responce suffers too. Most guys who pull their muffler and go sheez look at that orange brown varnish on my piston........well they are looking at sulfur simple as that.


Non of these oils have sulfur added. Where are you getting this idea of sulfur?? The glazing you see would be caused by polymers and some carbon, and I've seen this on engines running on mineral oil as much or more than synthetics.


----------



## windthrown

Add some sulfur to your premix... and make this fart of a thread even smellier.


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Does anyone know if a Savage .308 win bolt action can be rechambered and rebarrelled to a 300 win mag?


Change the bolt face and it would work but feeding would be a pain. Short action to long action caliber changes work better the other way.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> View attachment 435074
> 
> I have had several as well. Extremely heavy and very thick due to being made of cheap, chopped fiberglass instead of being hand laid like a Mcmillan.
> Here is a H&S on a 375, a MCM on a 300 win and 300 ultra and a pacific research on a sako 25-06AI.


I have several Zeiss scopes myself. What are you hunting with that 375? Bear...elk?


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Does anyone know if a Savage .308 win bolt action can be rechambered and rebarrelled to a 300 win mag?


 Maybe a 300 WSM (win short mag). You have a short-action not a long-action.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> View attachment 435074
> 
> I have had several as well. Extremely heavy and very thick due to being made of cheap, chopped fiberglass instead of being hand laid like a Mcmillan.
> Here is a H&S on a 375, a MCM on a 300 win and 300 ultra and a pacific research on a sako 25-06AI.


What brand of barrels are on those custom ones? I've had great luck with Krieger but you have a long waiting period to get one. My friend that shoots competition has been using Bartleins.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> View attachment 435074
> 
> I have had several as well. Extremely heavy and very thick due to being made of cheap, chopped fiberglass instead of being hand laid like a Mcmillan.
> Here is a H&S on a 375, a MCM on a 300 win and 300 ultra and a pacific research on a sako 25-06AI.


 I prefer the McMillan HTG stock for hunting. Especially in woodland camo. The largest contour those will hold is a #8 which is heavy! My cousin has one in forest camo on a Win 70 action with a #4.5 Krieger in 7mag. He's hitting well at 500yds using 154gr Hornady SST's.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Anyone know how to fix these lazer levels ? it is self leveling ,it self levels still for up and down ,but if i do it horizontal it will not find level anymore ,it worked when i got it real nice ,but now is useless ,just get a beeping alarm ,doing dirt work sucks without this working ,helpppppppp . sorry to derail the 13 other subjects going on .



Open it up and clean out the dirt from the gimballs .......................
Did one a few years ago, was packed with dirt inside .................. stopping the self leveling


----------



## Trx250r180

Have to retune going from yamalube to Mobil 1.almost 1/4 of a turn on the H screw richer on the 660, I will say it has almost no odor, with my post hole drill the yamalube was making my nose messed up,the Mobil did not seem to bother too bad,also that earthquake drill has a non adjustable carb,and runs way better with Mobil than yamalube or h1 r at 32 to 1


----------



## HuskStihl

Poured a pint of yamalube into 4 gallons of 89 e10, filled 14 empty Tru-fuel cans right to the top and screwed on the caps. Did it over the spot where I changed the oil earlier, and what I spilled cleaned up the oil. I am sad it is crap oil, cause it looks delicious!


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> What brand of barrels are on those custom ones? I've had great luck with Krieger but you have a long waiting period to get one. My friend that shoots competition has been using Bartleins.


You can buy krieger pretty easy from Bugholes with no wait. I like Krieger and have a few, but they don't make a light hunting contour in stainless. As a result I use Rock Creek/ Mike Rock 5R cut rifled barrels.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I have several Zeiss scopes myself. What are you hunting with that 375? Bear...elk?


That was my dad's rifle that he gave me along with a liftemes worth of brass and bullets.He hunted it extensively in Alaska, Zambia, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe..Killed just about everything with it including cape buffalo, lion, leopard, elephant, grizzly bear and hippo.
I may use it on elk this year. It really doesn't kick noticeboard more than my 300 ultra and it doesn't tear up meat as bad.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I prefer the McMillan HTG stock for hunting. Especially in woodland camo. The largest contour those will hold is a #8 which is heavy! My cousin has one in forest camo on a Win 70 action with a #4.5 Krieger in 7mag. He's hitting well at 500yds using 154gr Hornady SST's.


HTG I'd much to heavy for my hunting style. For a magnum rifle I like it to weigh 8lbs all up and a standard maybe .5-1lb less.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Have to retune going from yamalube to Mobil 1.almost 1/4 of a turn on the H screw richer on the 660, I will say it has almost no odor, with my post hole drill the yamalube was making my nose messed up,the Mobil did not seem to bother too bad,also that earthquake drill has a non adjustable carb,and runs way better with Mobil than yamalube or h1 r at 32 to 1


I have noticed no differance in tuning between Mx2t and 2R and have ran those two oils the most across many different motors. Are you sure your not tuning over a mechanical issue?


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have noticed no differance in tuning between Mx2t and 2R and have ran those two oils the most across many different motors. Are you sure your not tuning over a mechanical issue?


It ran OK with no retune but would not 4 stroke letting out of the cut till I richnend the carb,this is milling with 30 inch wide log


----------



## nitehawk55

Mixed up a 4.5 litre can of Shell V power with some Motul 800 off road at 45:1 today , i'll see how it makes a saw run .


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> HTG I'd much to heavy for my hunting style. For a magnum rifle I like it to weigh 8lbs all up and a standard maybe .5-1lb less.


 My HTG w/#8 contour will be only a pipeline or highline rifle were I can see up to 800 yds. It's heavy!


----------



## Effs

McMillan makes great stocks! Although I would not use any of there stocks for a hunting rifle. I have, they are much to heavy for western hunting.


----------



## gunnusmc03

They make them with light fills


----------



## Effs

gunnusmc03 said:


> They make them with light fills


I have built rifles with there light stocks, they are to heavy. IMHO


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> McMillan makes great stocks! Although I would not use any of there stocks for a hunting rifle. I have, they are much to heavy for western hunting.


The McM Edge is about as light as you will get a stock and still have some amount of strength.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> The McM Edge is about as light as you will get a stock and still have some amount of strength.


Don't think I agree, pillar bedded lighter stocks shoot just fine.


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> Don't think I agree, pillar bedded lighter stocks shoot just fine.


Which lighter stocks? Edge stocks come with pillars.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> Which lighter stocks? Edge stocks come with pillars.


None that I have used


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> None that I have used


Than you haven't used an Edge as they all come with pillars cast in place.
Just to be clear this is McM carbon fiber composite stock.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> Than you haven't used an Edge as they all come with pillars cast in place.
> Just to be clear this is McM carbon fiber composite stock.


I quit using them 2 years ago, to heavy , and the edge stocks did not have pillars in them, maybe they are catching up now.


----------



## bwalker

They have had pillars since the came out... they are cast into the stock and can be difficult to see, but they are there.
The only thing lighter that's worth a damn is a Brown Pounder. The problem with them is they only come in one pattern and they are a project in a box as they are pretty crude as delivered in blank form.


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> They have had pillars since the came out... they are cast into the stock and can be difficult to see, but they are there.
> The only thing lighter that's worth a damn is a Brown Pounder. The problem with them is they only come in one pattern and they are a project in a box as they are pretty crude as delivered in blank form.


The McMillan edge hunting stocks I have used were not pillar bedded , as I pillar bedded them my self. Like I said maybe they are catching up now . I have built more rifles than you have shot and don't need your internet opinion.


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> The McMillan edge hunting stocks I have used were not pillar bedded , as I pillar bedded them my self. Like I said maybe they are catching up now . I have built more rifles than you have shot and don't need your internet opinion.


Your full of crap..


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> Your full of crap..


That's your standard answer! Like I said , you should change your heading to resident BSer!


----------



## KenJax Tree

I see everyone agrees on gun like they agree on oil[emoji2]


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> That's your standard answer! Like I said , you should change your heading to resident BSer!


For you, because you always are..

BTW wander over to MCM website.. you might notice the verbage "graphite stocks come with aluminum pillars" and they have since the came out..I have used them since the begining.


----------



## HuskStihl

I'm amazed men who run a 25 pound chainsaw all day will argue about a few ounces of wood vs plastic. 


I can't believe I just typed that! Which stock has better sideways balance?


----------



## bwalker

HuskStihl said:


> I'm amazed men who run a 25 pound chainsaw all day will argue about a few ounces of wood vs plastic.
> 
> 
> I can't believe I just typed that! Which stock has better sideways balance?


You wouldn't be if you ever carried said gun will packing out a 100 lbs of elk meat.


----------



## HuskStihl

bwalker said:


> You wouldn't be if you ever carried said gun will packing out a 100 lbs of elk meat.


I was joking, because we'll argue about anything, but if you had 100 pounds of elk on u'r back, would you be able to tell if u'r stock was wood or plastic?


----------



## Effs

bwalker said:


> For you, because you always are..
> 
> BTW wander over to MCM website.. you might notice the verbage "graphite stocks come with aluminum pillars" and they have since the came out..I have used them since the begining.


I don't have to go to there website , as I am a McMillan dealer,


----------



## Bwildered

Effs said:


> I don't have to go to there website , as I am a McMillan dealer,


Touché
It looks like Google has failed someone again!
Thansk


----------



## Tor R

HuskStihl said:


> I'm amazed men who run a 25 pound chainsaw all day will argue about a few ounces of wood vs plastic.


agree, i dont see the big point wood vs plastic, there are lightweight rifle in wood also, though, they are pricey.
http://sauerrifles.co.uk/15-s-202-highland


----------



## Ron660

Tor R said:


> agree, i dont see the big point wood vs plastic, there are lightweight rifle in wood also, though, they are pricey.
> http://sauerrifles.co.uk/15-s-202-highland


 I love my nice wood stocks. This 22 rifle is very light with a custom wood stock and a match Broughton barrel. Wood feels alive in my hands unlike synthetic. Guess that's why I prefer natural over silicon in women.


----------



## bwalker

Effs said:


> I don't have to go to there website , as I am a McMillan dealer,


BS again!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Touché
> It looks like Google has failed someone again!
> Thansk


I don't have to use google, dumb azz. AI have three of them on hand right now...


----------



## Moparmyway

Well ............ since its all about guns lately ................ my wooden stock .22 long rimfire rifle from a sporting goods store (30 years ago) was $99
It hasnt missed any varmints in over 78 shots and counting under 500 yards this year alone .................. just front and rear sights.

Does this mean it was bedded properly ?


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> You wouldn't be if you ever carried said gun will packing out a 100 lbs of elk meat.



Sometimes you really come off as an ignorant SOB .

How would you like to hump 120 lb plus of gear in Afghanistan as well as your rifle and an M72 ??....jerk


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Sometimes you really come off as an ignorant SOB .
> 
> How would you like to hump 120 lb plus of gear in Afghanistan as well as your rifle and an M72 ??....jerk


How as that ignorant? It's called smart.
Guys in the military don't have the option of chosing gear to minimize weight, I do.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I don't have to use google, dumb azz. AI have three of them on hand right now...


I thought I was dumb, but you have shown me a whole new level not to aspire to.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I thought I was dumb, but you have shown me a whole new level not to aspire to.


At least you had one correct thought.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> At least you had one correct thought.


That would make it 1/0 then! LOL


----------



## NWCoaster

Oh this is getting good..... I think someone's pillow just blew apart and someone else got a fake eyelash knocked off!!!!!! Oh GAWD!!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im been using this for 2 weeks i got it from the local gas station 1.99 for 8oz
mix it with 2.5 gallons and i run it doesn't smoke and has very little smell and mixes into a nice purple color.
bottle is up to date and i guess they changed the formula seems like good stuff nothing has died yet.


----------



## HuskStihl

This is my only gun with a plastic stock, but I think it's a shotgun


----------



## NWCoaster

HuskStihl said:


> View attachment 435870
> 
> This is my only gun with a plastic stock, but I think it's a shotgun


 DON'T SHOOT YUR EYE OUT!!!!!!!


----------



## porsche965

Does anyone have any current up to date reports on Motul 800 Off Road to share?


----------



## Marshy

Does anyone have any oil related info to share?


----------



## NWCoaster

jakewells said:


> im been using this for 2 weeks i got it from the local gas station 1.99 for 8oz
> mix it with 2.5 gallons and i run it doesn't smoke and has very little smell and mixes into a nice purple color.
> bottle is up to date and i guess they changed the formula seems like good stuff nothing has died yet.
> View attachment 435857


 Does anybody know if they still make LawnBoy 2 stroke lawnmowers? I wouldnt think so with all the emissions stuff going on. I remember running those probably 30 years ago. You didn't have to worry about bugs in the near vicinity if you bogged the motor at all while mowing. Some guys swear by those things and seem to almost have a cult following....Lol. Anyone still running one?


----------



## Trx250r180

I think i am liking the mobil 1 more and more now ,it is kind of like when i went from h1r to yamalube ,it runs even better with the mobil ,or it combusts better maybe ,the other dirt bike oils have a closer tuning window i have used ,the mobil ,it sounds better at wide open throttle also .


----------



## NWCoaster

Trx250r180 said:


> I think i am liking the mobil 1 more and more now ,it is kind of like when i went from h1r to yamalube ,it runs even better with the mobil ,or it combusts better maybe ,the other dirt bike oils have a closer tuning window i have used ,the mobil ,it sounds better at wide open throttle also .


 Have you tried Maxima K2 yet?


----------



## Trx250r180

NWCoaster said:


> Have you tried Maxima K2 yet?


I have not tried it yet ,i have a bottle of super M i was going to try sometime ,the bike shop did not stock the K2


----------



## NWCoaster

Trx250r180 said:


> I have not tried it yet ,i have a bottle of super M i was going to try sometime ,the bike shop did not stock the K2


 Very good. I am liking the K2.


----------



## KenJax Tree

K2 is good stuff but expensive


----------



## Trx250r180

NWCoaster said:


> Very good. I am liking the K2.


I used to run 927 for mx ,maxima makes a good product .


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> K2 is good stuff but expensive


 Yeah, you are right about that......a little bit cost prohibitive.


----------



## porsche965

This is a good informative video. They are running on only 2% oil if I read this correctly. 

http://www.aspenfuel.co.uk/products/environmental-fuels/aspen-alkylate-petrol/


----------



## bwalker

I wish I still had a steady, reliable source for Mx2t.


----------



## mdavlee

porsche965 said:


> Does anyone have any current up to date reports on Motul 800 Off Road to share?


What you want to know John? I ran almost 2 liters of the stuff last summer and into winter.

I got to burn 2 tanks in an 044 with Mobil. Seems to have the least smell of anything.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> What you want to know John? I ran almost 2 liters of the stuff last summer and into winter.
> 
> I got to burn 2 tanks in an 044 with Mobil. Seems to have the least smell of anything.


That is what i noticed too almost no smell


----------



## porsche965

I view the milling guys like mdavlee as the most intense proving grounds for oils. Thanks Mike. Good to know.


----------



## nitehawk55

mdavlee said:


> What you want to know John? I ran almost 2 liters of the stuff last summer and into winter.
> 
> I got to burn 2 tanks in an 044 with Mobil. Seems to have the least smell of anything.



Just your thoughts on how well (or not) the Motul 800 off road worked would be appreciated .


----------



## scallywag

porsche965 said:


> Does anyone have any current up to date reports on Motul 800 Off Road to share?


 
Yep, my supplier has drop the price by $3- per litre!


----------



## redbull660

been running motul 800 lately...

It was only 1 second slower dropping down to 32:1 from 45:1. Unlike h1r which gained (was slower) about 7 seconds dropping down to 32:1.

Anyway so I have been running 40:1 800 off road in the 660 for some recent tests. Like what I see


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## mdavlee

nitehawk55 said:


> Just your thoughts on how well (or not) the Motul 800 off road worked would be appreciated .


800 works great on saws worked hard. The 550 would have some sponge at 32:1. It was never buried in long cuts either. I ran 2 gallons of fuel mixed at 25:1 with 800 and it did fine. It is top 3 oil I've used. Just wish it was cheaper. It can be used at very cold temperatures and R50 isn't recommended below 20 if I remember right.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> been running motul 800 lately...
> 
> It was only 1 second slower dropping down to 32:1 from 45:1. Unlike h1r which gained (was slower) about 7 seconds dropping down to 32:1.
> 
> Anyway so I have been running 40:1 800 off road in the 660 for some recent tests. Like what I see


What rpm's are you running ? Looks rich .


----------



## KenJax Tree

[emoji22]


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> been running motul 800 lately...
> 
> It was only 1 second slower dropping down to 32:1 from 45:1. Unlike h1r which gained (was slower) about 7 seconds dropping down to 32:1.
> 
> Anyway so I have been running 40:1 800 off road in the 660 for some recent tests. Like what I see


That's a real nice, wet coat of oil.


----------



## redbull660

Trx250r180 said:


> What rpm's are you running ? Looks rich .



2800 idle - 13100 top

Did some testing, after running hard, I let the saw idle for about 30 seconds to cool down, way I always do it. Pulled the muff. Would it look like that if I just shut the saw off? I don't know. The key is, I always pull the muff after cooling the saw the same way. To me that looks pretty damn good. Night and day difference vs lucas 32:1. H1r looked like that at 42:1 but it runs slow.


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> [emoji22]


Been really happy with this stuff!!!

All saws run good on it, smell is there but not offending to me.

Still got to do a tear down on the 7900 for giggles 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> 2800 idle - 13100 top
> 
> Did some testing, after running hard, I let the saw idle for about 30 seconds to cool down, way I always do it. Pulled the muff. Would it look like that if I just shut the saw off? I don't know. The key is, I always pull the muff after cooling the saw the same way. To me that looks pretty damn good. Night and day difference vs lucas 32:1. H1r looked like that at 42:1 but it runs slow.


My h1r was real wet like that at 32 to 1 also after i mill some more with the mobil ,i will check in there see if wet ,i have tuned rich for the milling ,i let idle to cool down after a long pass also .Almost used a 1.25 gallon can up milling so far .


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> My h1r was real wet like that at 32 to 1 also after i mill some more with the mobil ,i will check in there see if wet ,i have tuned rich for the milling ,i let idle to cool down after a long pass also .Almost used a 1.25 gallon can up milling so far .


I'm jealous of the softer woods. I got 3 slabs for 1.5 gallons of fuel one day.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR500 said:


> Been really happy with this stuff!!!
> 
> All saws run good on it, smell is there but not offending to me.
> 
> Still got to do a tear down on the 7900 for giggles
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


Yeah i like too but its not worthy on AS[emoji3]


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> Yeah i like too but its not worthy on AS[emoji3]


Lets ask why?

Minus the smell for some users.... I think it is competitive with 2R

I have no opinion on 2R yet though 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR500 said:


> Lets ask why?
> 
> Minus the smell for some users.... I think it is competitive with 2R
> 
> I have no opinion on 2R yet though
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I'm not really worried about why....AS Is kinda like the Pied Piper[emoji1]

Both seem to work and coat well, 2R is a synthetic blend and HP2 is a full synthetic, both priced the same. I'm not sure one is better than the other.


----------



## nitehawk55

I've got some 800 mixed at 45:1 , I'll see how it looks but that 40:1 looks good


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm not really worried about why....AS Is kinda like the Pied Piper[emoji1]
> 
> Both seem to work and coat well, 2R is a synthetic blend and HP2 is a full synthetic, both priced the same. I'm not sure one is better than the other.


Never heard anything negative about Hp2. Never played with it much because the smell is nasty. In the late 80's,early nineties it's been said that team Honda Mx ran yam 2r poured into honda bottles.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> 800 works great on saws worked hard. The 550 would have some sponge at 32:1. It was never buried in long cuts either. I ran 2 gallons of fuel mixed at 25:1 with 800 and it did fine. It is top 3 oil I've used. Just wish it was cheaper. It can be used at very cold temperatures and R50 isn't recommended below 20 if I remember right.


Ran R50 in my EHP 7900 when the temperature was down in the low teens a few times, seemed to work just fine. Now straight up R50 will get really thick in those temperatures, but when it's mixed with fuel, I don't think it would ever be an issue. 

Again if Mobile was available that's what I'd run, but it's not, so for me it's K2 or R50. Still running Yamalube in my blowers and trimmers, we'll see how that goes.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> 2800 idle - 13100 top
> 
> Did some testing, after running hard, I let the saw idle for about 30 seconds to cool down, way I always do it. Pulled the muff. *Would it look like that if I just shut the saw off?* I don't know. The key is, I always pull the muff after cooling the saw the same way. To me that looks pretty damn good. Night and day difference vs lucas 32:1. H1r looked like that at 42:1 but it runs slow.



It definately makes a huge difference ! If you shut it off right away, it would get hotter inside and there wont be any oil on or in the muffler if you worked the saw good

Let a saw @ 32:1 idle and there will be spooge ........... run that saw good and it will be dry

To keep the mud daubers away, I go WOT then hit the kill switch when I am done running a 2 cycle. This coats a dry muffler real well


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> It definately makes a huge difference ! If you shut it off right away, it would get hotter inside and there wont be any oil on or in the muffler if you worked the saw good
> 
> Let a saw @ 32:1 idle and there will be spooge ........... run that saw good and it will be dry
> 
> To keep the mud daubers away, I go WOT then hit the kill switch when I am done running a 2 cycle. This coats a dry muffler real well


Which is why inspecting for residual oil and noting differance between different oils doesn't tell you much. The amount of residual oil is mostly a component of ratio and how the machine was operated before shutdown.


----------



## redbull660

if the method for measurement is always the same, the results are consistent on the same products & ratios and there is a difference with other products. Then I think that is noteworthy.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> if the method for measurement is always the same, the results are consistent on the same products & ratios and there is a difference with other products. Then I think that is noteworthy.


I tend to agree. However, letting a saw idle for 30 seconds will lead to an oily appearance like pictured regardless of oil. There are some other variables at play also, such as how hot the saw got prior to idling down. I would think the hotter the saw was initially the dryer the appearance.
Honestly, I don't even worry about it as residual is mostly a factor of oil ratio and another good reason to run a little more oil than the factory reccomended 50:1.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> if the method for measurement is always the same, the results are consistent on the same products & ratios and there is a difference with other products. Then I think that is noteworthy.


Another factor I wouldn't worry to much about is cylinder temp. Other than to use it as a rough measure of increased HP.


----------



## porsche965

Aspen Fuel in Europe is highly regarded as the premium pre-mix fuel. The oil is at 2% or 64:1. If it was available here I would try it. 

One would think that there would be saws all over Europe blowing up because of the lack of oil in the fuel after reading this thread. ???


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Aspen Fuel in Europe is highly regarded as the premium pre-mix fuel. The oil is at 2% or 64:1. If it was available here I would try it.
> 
> One would think that there would be saws all over Europe blowing up because of the lack of oil in the fuel after reading this thread. ???


2% is a 50:1 ratio.


----------



## bwalker

Btw a small piece of steel wool added to the muffler outlet keeps bugs and critters out pretty well.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'm out of oil so now what do i buy?[emoji1]


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Btw a small piece of steel wool added to the muffler outlet keeps bugs and critters out pretty well.


There is a screen installed in there, you can see it if you zoom in


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm out of oil so now what do i buy?[emoji1]


Whatever you preferr to smell.
Most all protect rather well at reasonable ratios.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> There is a screen installed in there, you can see it if you zoom in


I didn't notice it. And I don't run them, ever, hence the Stihl wool...pun intended.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Only Klotz and Stihl Ultra bother me. Klotz makes me nauseous and Ulta make my head pound.


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> Only Klotz and Stihl Ultra bother me. Klotz makes me nauseous and Ulta make my head pound.


Well then, next criteria for me would be cost .............. which smells best to you and is at the better cost per quantity


----------



## Trx250r180

When milling or drilling odor is a nice thing not to have too much of,it messes with the sinus' for me ,the 2 oils i have found with least odor are the dumonde tech (very expensive) ,and the mobil (hard to get for most guys ),have not tried maxima yet or klotz ,anyone have any oils they have found that have little to no smell to them ? the H1r and the Yamalube both have a smell to them that when right under the exhaust messes with sinus'


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> ,anyone have any oils they have found that have little to no smell to them ? '


K2 has no smell to me, it seems to be the best all around oil for me to use

Stay away from klotz if you dont like smells


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> 2% is a 50:1 ratio.


Correct. I was thinking ounces. My mistake.

Wouldn't there be a chance of some of the steel wool dropping off into the muffler box? I guess it would just get blown out the port if it did.


----------



## bwalker

,


porsche965 said:


> Correct. I was thinking ounces. My mistake.
> 
> Wouldn't there be a chance of some of the steel wool dropping off into the muffler box? I guess it would just get blown out the port if it did.


I use the really coarse stuff, which isn't fuzzy and friable.
Btw AV gas as in 100LL is an alkalate fuel.


----------



## bwalker

2r, mx2t and K2 have little smell when tuned properly.
I love the smell of Klotz Techniplate..


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> 2r, mx2t and K2 have little smell when tuned properly.
> I love the smell of Klotz Techniplate..


No MXT2 here, Trx250r180 is hoarding it all[emoji1]


----------



## KenJax Tree

What current oil would be the best replacement for mx2t?


----------



## blsnelling

KenJax Tree said:


> What current oil would be the best replacement for mx2t?


That's basically the question that was asked more than 3,000 posts ago.


----------



## KenJax Tree

blsnelling said:


> That's basically the question that was asked more than 3,000 posts ago.


[emoji1]


----------



## KenJax Tree

I'll buy another case of 2R or HP2 its works well and is pretty cheap


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm out of oil so now what do i buy?[emoji1]


Whatever makes u feel warm and fuzzy!! Lol!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

KenJax Tree said:


> I'll buy another case of 2R or HP2 its works well and is pretty cheap


Is one any better than the other?


----------



## KG441c

Its oil


----------



## KenJax Tree

That answer is way too short and unacceptable


----------



## bwalker

For general use in a saw Yam 2r is my go to oil.
K2 is also proving to be pretty good, but the price borders on rape. Defiantly not worth the added expense over 2r in a saw.


----------



## HuskStihl

Is h1r slower in all applications? I would think they would have difficulty selling the stuff for racing applications if it made everything slower.


----------



## bwalker

HuskStihl said:


> Is h1r slower in all applications? I would think they would have difficulty selling the stuff for racing applications if it made everything slower.


It's sure caused issues with everything I have used it in.
Years ago Belray had a pretty good reputation in MX, but that reputation was earned prior to H1R. Can't say if there other oils are worth a damn or not.
One other thing to consider is most people don't know how to tune a carb or do any testing so they would never know.

One other great smelling oil is Golden Spectro original formula in the black and gold bottle. I still remember the smell of that stuff as my dad used it in his dirt bikes in the early 80's


----------



## Trx250r180

I forget now ,but why do we not want castor ,like 927 in a saw ? It worked good in my big bore 250r ,did leave some black spooge at the exhaust joints on my pipe though .


----------



## KenJax Tree

Saws are fueled (HP2), chains are sharp, and the beer is cold


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> I forget now ,but why do we not want castor ,like 927 in a saw ? It worked good in my big bore 250r ,did leave some black spooge at the exhaust joints on my pipe though .


Some had bad buildup with it. I didn't notice anything crazy in 4 gallons of mix I used. It was hot weather and I was milling some with the saws.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> 2r, mx2t and K2 have little smell when tuned properly.
> I love the smell of Klotz Techniplate..



How do you tune an Auto Tune, your 562xp, to your liking?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> How do you tune an Auto Tune, your 562xp, to your liking?


It does it for me!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

NWCoaster said:


> Does anybody know if they still make LawnBoy 2 stroke lawnmowers? I wouldnt think so with all the emissions stuff going on. I remember running those probably 30 years ago. You didn't have to worry about bugs in the near vicinity if you bogged the motor at all while mowing. Some guys swear by those things and seem to almost have a cult following....Lol. Anyone still running one?


they stopped putting 2 strokes on mowers in 2003 because of emissions.
now they make plastic junk I have a few lawnboys I have overhauled and use but parts are neither cheap or easy to get when it comes to some things.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> It does it for me!



Just checking lol


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> they stopped putting 2 strokes on mowers in 2003 because of emissions.
> now they make plastic junk I have a few lawnboys I have overhauled and use but parts are neither cheap or easy to get when it comes to some things.


I have a duraforce commercial and it's pretty much a pos. Looking for a M series which had a Suzuki motor.


----------



## Justsaws

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm out of oil so now what do i buy?[emoji1]





KenJax Tree said:


> What current oil would be the best replacement for mx2t?



Lucas.


----------



## nitehawk55

jakewells said:


> they stopped putting 2 strokes on mowers in 2003 because of emissions.
> now they make plastic junk I have a few lawnboys I have overhauled and use but parts are neither cheap or easy to get when it comes to some things.



That's one thing I am pretty much stocked up on is Lawn Boy D series "brick top" mowers and parts . Run forever with proper maintanance


----------



## KenJax Tree

Justsaws said:


> Lucas.


Been there, done that


----------



## Deleted member 83629

nitehawk55 said:


> That's one thing I am pretty much stocked up on is Lawn Boy D series "brick top" mowers and parts . Run forever with proper maintanance


you better on the CDI ignition modules they have recently discontinued producing them. I got three spare modules for mine
its a D-600 from 1974


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> Been there, done that


Don't be a pansy you add 1 bottle to 2.5 gallons.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

nitehawk55 said:


> That's one thing I am pretty much stocked up on is Lawn Boy D series "brick top" mowers and parts . Run forever with proper maintanance


oh just like mine.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> Don't be a pansy you add 1 bottle to 2.5 gallons.
> View attachment 436230


I bought more Pro Honda HP2


----------



## nitehawk55

Later version of the D series Jakewells but a good one too and looks to be in nice shape . The F series are decent machines too , Toro bought them out a bit later and things went down hill .
The brick tops I run are from the later 60's into the 70's although the earlier C series was a great machine too . LB did have some issues with the SS ignition modules and some of the plastic carbs were a pain .


----------



## Deleted member 83629

nitehawk55 said:


> Later version of the D series Jakewells but a good one too and looks to be in nice shape . The F series are decent machines too , Toro bought them out a bit later and things went down hill .
> The brick tops I run are from the later 60's into the 70's although the earlier C series was a great machine too . LB did have some issues with the SS ignition modules and some of the plastic carbs were a pain .


mine is a mag deck OMC made in Lincoln Nebraska mine has the metal carb and I ususally burn the evirude / Johnson brand outboard oil in it and it seems to like it other than a slightly oily muffler. im up to try 40 or 50:1 since these engines are slow , simple , and over engineered


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> you better on the CDI ignition modules they have recently discontinued producing them. I got three spare modules for mine
> its a D-600 from 1974


The duraforce eats ignition modules. The only last on average three years.


----------



## Andyshine77

KenJax Tree said:


> I bought more Pro Honda HP2



What color is HP2? The msds I found says blue. The oils is made buy Idemitsu Lubricants America. I know you can't learn everything from the mads but this oil looks interesting. Sign up and type in Pro Honda HP2 for the msds. http://www.msdsonline.com/msds-search


----------



## KenJax Tree

This is HP2 @ 40:1


----------



## Deleted member 83629

looks like kool aide


----------



## Andyshine77

Well that looks blue to me.


----------



## Trx250r180

jakewells said:


> looks like kool aide


Mx2t looks like a urine sample.....


----------



## windthrown




----------



## windthrown




----------



## Bwildered

windthrown said:


> View attachment 436260


The only place you will find fur these days would be in a nursing home or in a hippie commune. LOL
Thansk


----------



## redbull660

read somewhere that PIB isn't the greatest stuff to be breathing in. Couldn't remember where so i'm gogglin "Polyisobutylene health" ie. *PIB* (used in *k2 & super m*)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCsQFjACahUKEwiaksjRluLGAhWCdD4KHX2vDhE&url=https://www.oronite.com/pdfs/polyisobutylene_productstewardshipsummary.pdf&ei=bfaoVdqnJYLp-QH93rqIAQ&usg=AFQjCNE1CayDHAmSz_PqDNQj8VUW1HzqSw&sig2=HsJMhBx8UOPO6B1Q37JwHg&cad=rja



page 3

health info

so it sounds like the best way to get systemic toxicity is to breathe in the fumes of products containing PIB based additives

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
See below... so looks like you are fcked but don't know it til 24-72hrs later LOL

PIB -

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+1260

0.4.3 INHALATION EXPOSURE
A) DECONTAMINATION -
1) INHALATION: Move patient to fresh air. Monitor for
respiratory distress. If cough or difficulty breathing
develops, evaluate for respiratory tract irritation,
bronchitis, or pneumonitis. Administer oxygen and
assist ventilation as required. Treat bronchospasm with
an inhaled beta2-adrenergic agonist. Consider systemic
corticosteroids in patients with significant
bronchospasm.
B) IRRITATION -
1) Respiratory tract irritation, if severe,* can progress
to pulmonary edema which may be delayed in onset up to
24 to 72 hours after exposure in some cases.*
C) ACUTE LUNG INJURY -
1) ACUTE LUNG INJURY: Maintain ventilation and oxygenation
and evaluate with frequent arterial blood gases and/or
pulse oximetry monitoring. Early use of PEEP and
mechanical ventilation may be needed.
D) BRONCHOSPASM -
1) If bronchospasm and wheezing occur, consider treatment
with inhaled sympathomimetic agents.
E) OBSERVATION CRITERIA -
1) Carefully observe patients with inhalation exposure for
the development of any systemic signs or symptoms and
administer symptomatic treatment as necessary.
2) Patients symptomatic following exposure should be
observed in a controlled setting until all signs and
symptoms have fully resolved.

************************************************************************
************************************************************************

I see *motul 800 has warning about allergic reactions regarding Calcium sulfonate*

so gogglin "Calcium Sulfonate Health" i came up with...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CE0QFjAIahUKEwiW-YyemuLGAhWGcz4KHcRiDxc&url=https://www.oronite.com/pdfs/Sulfonates_fnWeb.pdf&ei=M_qoVdaTGobn-QHExb24AQ&usg=AFQjCNGUfa0JJ8uL3PbO1VQkZwyoj-M04w&sig2=Wt9JdeZ2qEuAIzttO48RPg&cad=rja

health info bottom page 2

looks 10x better than what is said about PIB. I mean none of this sh*t is good for you. It's just a question of if X is THAT much worse for you than Y.


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> read somewhere that PIB isn't the greatest stuff to be breathing in. Couldn't remember where so i'm gogglin "Polyisobutylene health" ie. PIB (used in k2 & super m)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCsQFjACahUKEwiaksjRluLGAhWCdD4KHX2vDhE&url=https://www.oronite.com/pdfs/polyisobutylene_productstewardshipsummary.pdf&ei=bfaoVdqnJYLp-QH93rqIAQ&usg=AFQjCNE1CayDHAmSz_PqDNQj8VUW1HzqSw&sig2=HsJMhBx8UOPO6B1Q37JwHg&cad=rja
> 
> 
> 
> page 3
> 
> health info
> 
> so it sounds like the best way to get systemic toxicity is to breathe in the fumes of products containing PIB based additives
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See below... so looks like you are fcked but don't know it til 24-72hrs later LOL
> 
> PIB -
> 
> http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+1260
> 
> 0.4.3 INHALATION EXPOSURE
> A) DECONTAMINATION -
> 1) INHALATION: Move patient to fresh air. Monitor for
> respiratory distress. If cough or difficulty breathing
> develops, evaluate for respiratory tract irritation,
> bronchitis, or pneumonitis. Administer oxygen and
> assist ventilation as required. Treat bronchospasm with
> an inhaled beta2-adrenergic agonist. Consider systemic
> corticosteroids in patients with significant
> bronchospasm.
> B) IRRITATION -
> 1) Respiratory tract irritation, if severe,* can progress
> to pulmonary edema which may be delayed in onset up to
> 24 to 72 hours after exposure in some cases.*
> C) ACUTE LUNG INJURY -
> 1) ACUTE LUNG INJURY: Maintain ventilation and oxygenation
> and evaluate with frequent arterial blood gases and/or
> pulse oximetry monitoring. Early use of PEEP and
> mechanical ventilation may be needed.
> D) BRONCHOSPASM -
> 1) If bronchospasm and wheezing occur, consider treatment
> with inhaled sympathomimetic agents.
> E) OBSERVATION CRITERIA -
> 1) Carefully observe patients with inhalation exposure for
> the development of any systemic signs or symptoms and
> administer symptomatic treatment as necessary.
> 2) Patients symptomatic following exposure should be
> observed in a controlled setting until all signs and
> symptoms have fully resolved.


Running 20:1 could be a Darwinian method of emission control! LOL just a decade or more too late for effective birth control.
Thansk


----------



## KenJax Tree

The world is going to hell in a hand basket. The last thing i'm worried about killing me is 2 stroke fumes.

My oil has PIB and i use leaded gas[emoji33]


----------



## redbull660

running right amount of oil 







obviously not running enough oil


----------



## HuskStihl

Milling, or stumping sumptin' big on a hot, still day feels like sitting in the garage with the car running. I prefer to not have known neurotoxins bouncing off the stump and into my lungs


----------



## porsche965

A good friend of mine died of lung cancer two years ago at age 43. I was by his bedside hours before he passed. He did not smoke and was a HVAC guy, would laugh when the gauges came off the air conditioners and the hiss and plume of white gas went up. I told him that might not be too good for him. Tempting fate is foolish. 

Watching him gasp for each breath tends to make you a little more concerned about what is in the air you breathe.

He was a real strong guy until that hit him. He lasted one year.


----------



## Stihl working hard

porsche965 said:


> A good friend of mine died of lung cancer two years ago at age 43. I was by his bedside hours before he passed. He did not smoke and was a HVAC guy, would laugh when the gauges came off the air conditioners and the hiss and plume of white gas went up. I told him that might not be too good for him. Tempting fate is foolish.
> 
> Watching him gasp for each breath tends to make you a little more concerned about what is in the air you breathe.
> 
> He was a real strong guy until that hit him. He lasted one year.


Terribly sorry to hear about your friend


----------



## KenJax Tree

HP2 doesn't have either of those things you listed so I think I'm good

What we breathe as soon as you step outside is killing us too.


----------



## KenJax Tree

You'll find something wrong so it doesn't really matter. But the MSDS is out there online.


----------



## Trx250r180

*Mobil 1 Racing 2T
*
Viscosity (ASTM D445)


cSt @ 40 ºC

83

cSt @ 100 ºC

12.7

Viscosity Index

154

Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874)

0.15

Pour Point, ºC (ASTM D97)

-42

Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92)

100
Mobil 1 Racing 2T is recommended for lubrication of two-stroke engines used in the highest performance motorcycles, snowmobiles and lean oil/fuel ratio chain saws. It is ideal for applications where API TC or JASO FD performance standards are recommended. The product helps to provide outstanding performance even in some of the harshest operating conditions.

Mobil 1 Racing 2T combines high performance synthetic baseoils with an advanced additive technology to help provide outstanding engine cleanliness in the piston and exhaust valve areas, excellent wear protection and lubricity at high temperatures and virtually eliminate smoke production. This lubricant is engineered to outperform even under some of the severest operating conditions. Key features and potential benefits include:

*Features

Advantages and Potential Benefits
*
Outstanding wear protection

Helps to extend life for critical engine parts

Exceptional lubricity properties

Helps to protect against pre-mature wear and engine seizing

Excellent thermal and oxidation stability

Exceptional engine cleaning power helping to result in extended spark plug and valve life, reduced ring sticking, piston tightening and elimination of pre-ignition problems

Excellent corrosion protection properties

Long engine life

Eliminates pre-ignition

Helps to extend piston life

Smoke-free exhaust

Outstanding emissions control


Where do i find the pib in this stuff ?


----------



## NWCoaster

redbull660 said:


> read somewhere that PIB isn't the greatest stuff to be breathing in. Couldn't remember where so i'm gogglin "Polyisobutylene health" ie. *PIB* (used in *k2 & super m*)
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCsQFjACahUKEwiaksjRluLGAhWCdD4KHX2vDhE&url=https://www.oronite.com/pdfs/polyisobutylene_productstewardshipsummary.pdf&ei=bfaoVdqnJYLp-QH93rqIAQ&usg=AFQjCNE1CayDHAmSz_PqDNQj8VUW1HzqSw&sig2=HsJMhBx8UOPO6B1Q37JwHg&cad=rja
> 
> 
> 
> page 3
> 
> health info
> 
> so it sounds like the best way to get systemic toxicity is to breathe in the fumes of products containing PIB based additives
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> See below... so looks like you are fcked but don't know it til 24-72hrs later LOL
> 
> PIB -
> 
> http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+1260
> 
> 0.4.3 INHALATION EXPOSURE
> A) DECONTAMINATION -
> 1) INHALATION: Move patient to fresh air. Monitor for
> respiratory distress. If cough or difficulty breathing
> develops, evaluate for respiratory tract irritation,
> bronchitis, or pneumonitis. Administer oxygen and
> assist ventilation as required. Treat bronchospasm with
> an inhaled beta2-adrenergic agonist. Consider systemic
> corticosteroids in patients with significant
> bronchospasm.
> B) IRRITATION -
> 1) Respiratory tract irritation, if severe,* can progress
> to pulmonary edema which may be delayed in onset up to
> 24 to 72 hours after exposure in some cases.*
> C) ACUTE LUNG INJURY -
> 1) ACUTE LUNG INJURY: Maintain ventilation and oxygenation
> and evaluate with frequent arterial blood gases and/or
> pulse oximetry monitoring. Early use of PEEP and
> mechanical ventilation may be needed.
> D) BRONCHOSPASM -
> 1) If bronchospasm and wheezing occur, consider treatment
> with inhaled sympathomimetic agents.
> E) OBSERVATION CRITERIA -
> 1) Carefully observe patients with inhalation exposure for
> the development of any systemic signs or symptoms and
> administer symptomatic treatment as necessary.
> 2) Patients symptomatic following exposure should be
> observed in a controlled setting until all signs and
> symptoms have fully resolved.
> 
> ************************************************************************
> ************************************************************************
> 
> I see *motul 800 has warning about allergic reactions regarding Calcium sulfonate*
> 
> so gogglin "Calcium Sulfonate Health" i came up with...
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CE0QFjAIahUKEwiW-YyemuLGAhWGcz4KHcRiDxc&url=https://www.oronite.com/pdfs/Sulfonates_fnWeb.pdf&ei=M_qoVdaTGobn-QHExb24AQ&usg=AFQjCNGUfa0JJ8uL3PbO1VQkZwyoj-M04w&sig2=Wt9JdeZ2qEuAIzttO48RPg&cad=rja
> 
> health info bottom page 2
> 
> looks 10x better than what is said about PIB. I mean none of this sh*t is good for you. It's just a question of if X is THAT much worse for you than Y.




Thanks for the link to the article Redbull. I read the whole thing. Being a Hazmat technician, I get a lot of practice deciphering key words and phrases in MSDS's. Here is a quote from the publication on Acute health effects:

Studies of PIB-based fuel additives by the dermal and oral routes


of exposure indicate that these substances are relatively low in

acute toxicity. They may cause respiratory irritation if inhaled.

Signs of systemic toxicity occur only at very high dose levels that

are much greater than human exposure that could result through

use of products containing PIB-based additives.


So what they are saying in general is that you would have to sit in a room dripping with the vapor in the air for an extended period of time to have significant ACUTE health effects.
Not what is EVER going to happen in the real world unless you are attempting to kill yourself with PIB.... Lol. You would get the same kind of respiratory distress from just about any chemical at that level ( wd-40, brake fluid, jack daniels, astroglide, etc.) The other constituents being formed in the exhaust of a 2 stroke engine have a much greater potential for acute side effects than the PIB if you think about it ( Sulfur, Carbon Monoxide, aerosolized metals, etc.) 
Definitely nothing to be concerned about this additive considering what else is in the exhaust.... try to work in a manner that reduces exposure to 2 stroke exhaust whenever possible.


----------



## redbull660

NWCoaster said:


> Thanks for the link to the article Redbull. I read the whole thing. Being a Hazmat technician, I get a lot of practice deciphering key words and phrases in MSDS's. Here is a quote from the publication on Acute health effects:
> 
> Studies of PIB-based fuel additives by the dermal and oral routes
> 
> 
> of exposure indicate that these substances are relatively low in
> 
> acute toxicity. They may cause respiratory irritation if inhaled.
> 
> Signs of systemic toxicity occur only at very high dose levels that
> 
> are much greater than human exposure that could result through
> 
> use of products containing PIB-based additives.
> 
> 
> So what they are saying in general is that you would have to sit in a room dripping with the vapor in the air for an extended period of time to have significant ACUTE health effects.
> Not what is EVER going to happen in the real world unless you are attempting to kill yourself with PIB.... Lol. You would get the same kind of respiratory distress from just about any chemical at that level ( wd-40, brake fluid, jack daniels, astroglide, etc.) The other constituents being formed in the exhaust of a 2 stroke engine have a much greater potential for acute side effects than the PIB if you think about it ( Sulfur, Carbon Monoxide, aerosolized metals, etc.)
> Definitely nothing to be concerned about this additive considering what else is in the exhaust.... try to work in a manner that reduces exposure to 2 stroke exhaust whenever possible.





I like expert opinion. Thanks! 

Does anything in any of these oils we've been talking about, stand out as bad enough to cause for elimination of said oil out of the race?


----------



## porsche965

FWIW and should be common practice if at all possible is to position one's self with the wind to your benefit carrying away the exhaust. Easier said than done at times but it is what I do. Where I have trouble is down low behind a Goony the last 10" of wood. Heck, I'll even grab a big gulp of air and duck back down to finish the cut before breathing again. Thank goodness for fast saws.


----------



## NWCoaster

redbull660 said:


> I like expert opinion. Thanks! Does any thing in any of these oils we've been talking about stand out as bad enough to eliminate said oil the race?


To tell you the truth, you would have to look through every last chemical that is in the additive/oil and all the components in that particular blend of gasoline. Would be very time consuming trying to verify all that info. From working in a refinery/refineries and being an Industrial firefighter/hazmat tech for more than 20 years, I can honestly tell you none of it is GOOD for you. Just the gasoline alone when you are filling up the fuel can..... Benzine is one of the worst chemicals that you can be exposed to, yet we do it all the time when filling up the car.... that sweet smell in the air is one of the worst carcinogens known. Our allowable time weighted average for exposure over an 8 hour work period usd to be 1 ppm ( Part per million). I think it has been changed to "0" now. Not good stuff.
The other one I see on here is people using leaded gasoline. I know its good stuff , but oh boy.... using that in an area with restricted ventilation for long periods of time.....It sounds corny, but I am actually concerned for the people using it - the amount of lead they are breathing in is a serious risk to their health. 
In the end when it comes down to chemicals and acute and chronic health risks and potential for damage, dosage is the most important factor ( Mg/Kg) and then exposure over time. Some chemicals produce acute effects with no chronic issues, some no acute issues but with serious chronic potential ( Mutagens, carcinogens) like benzene.
The most practical way to reduce risk from the exhaust is through engineering controls ( Ventilation , isolation, wind at your back...L0l) or secondarily, PPE. I don't foresee any of you using a half face respirator when using a chainsaw. The gist of it is , think about what you are doing before you start and try to arrange how you are working when possible to reduce the amount of exposure to the exhaust while working with a chainsaw..... trying to isolate any one additive or chemical is pretty much a moot point.... all of the exhaust is harmful to your body in one shape or form. Take care of yourselves guys, your body will thank you. ( As a side not, I think on average refinery workers live ten years shorter than the average for all fields of work) We have had 7 fatalities in the refinery I work in since I have been there over 21 years. As a firefighter, seeing the after effects up close of what happens to your co-workers when things go really bad is an eye opener on the possible effects of working in an industrial environment. I try to protect myself from short and long term risks as much as possible on an everyday basis..... sometimes its just a little prethought that makes the difference, Mark.


----------



## NWCoaster

porsche965 said:


> FWIW and should be common practice if at all possible is to position one's self with the wind to your benefit carrying away the exhaust. Easier said than done at times but it is what I do. Where I have trouble is down low behind a Goony the last 10" of wood. Heck, I'll even grab a big gulp of air and duck back down to finish the cut before breathing again. Thank goodness for fast saws.


This


----------



## Chainsaw Jim

Has anyone used the shindaiwa red armor brand? It is rated FD, I believe a higher rating than Stihl oil. The first thing I noticed when I used it was the pleasant odor left behind. Not to be a sissy about stinky things. lol, but some of those other brands are pretty raunchy.
I haven't noticed any carbon build up problems. There is always a tad bit of clean oil on the piston sides when I dismantle to inspect after a few tanks of mix. I run 50:1 and with the amount oil residue left behind after a good running, I'm interested in possibly donating a used cup and jug to the name of chainsaw science by testing 55 or 60:1. It'll either be a quick test, or who knows how long of a test. As we all know the ratio has been getting lower as the quality of oil has improved. Back in the day it was about 16:1 with sae 30, now it's 50:1 with almost everything current.


----------



## KenJax Tree

My throat burns many days from fumes


----------



## hardpan

nitehawk55 said:


> Later version of the D series Jakewells but a good one too and looks to be in nice shape . The F series are decent machines too , Toro bought them out a bit later and things went down hill .
> The brick tops I run are from the later 60's into the 70's although the earlier C series was a great machine too . LB did have some issues with the SS ignition modules and some of the plastic carbs were a pain .



I bought mine about 1979 new. It is all green, black plastic grill in the center of the top housing above the flywheel, plastic carb, steel deck, called the "utility" model as I recall. The absolute best engine I have ever owned. I have done nothing but clean the muffler once in all this time and it has gone places no push mower should ever go. I have replaced the deck and wheels though. Can you tell me the correct name for it and where to find parts? I have a pin hole in the primer bulb. Oh, and the only oil I have ever used in it is Lawn Boy 32:1. I may soon change to the same mix I use in all my other 2-strokes, currently Maxima K2 32:1. One more thing, until a year ago my Lawn Boy has always ran fine on crap, stale, pump gas with ethanol and no failed rubber and plastic parts. Now I mix with non ethanol gas and it possibly runs a little better. I wonder why these high dollar chainsaw fuel lines and carbs drop like flies when fed ethanol.


----------



## hardpan

KenJax Tree said:


> My throat burns many days from fumes



You are one of the high volume users that contribute most to this thread. Thanks. The part timers like me don't get enough exposure to tell the difference. Personally I couldn't care less what the exhaust smells like. You want to hear something crazy. When I was a kid I liked standing behind a car when it was idling because that exhaust smelled so good. There was no ethanol in that gas, but plenty of lead. Hmmm, maybe that is why I don't notice the fumes so much today. LOL


----------



## KenJax Tree

hardpan said:


> You are one of the high volume users that contribute most to this thread. Thanks. The part timers like me don't get enough exposure to tell the difference. Personally I couldn't care less what the exhaust smells like. You want to hear something crazy. When I was a kid I liked standing behind a car when it was idling because that exhaust smelled so good. There was no ethanol in that gas, but plenty of lead. Hmmm, maybe that is why I don't notice the fumes so much today. LOL


I'm far from an oil expert though[emoji2]


----------



## hardpan

You are a pretty heavy user of 2-strokes, make honest observations and looking for a better product (oil) so I listen. There are more in milling, logging, etc. And of course the saw builders who are most familiar with the guts of the mysterious 2-strokes


----------



## quotejso2

Chainsaw Jim said:


> Has anyone used the shindaiwa red armor brand? It is rated FD, I believe a higher rating than Stihl oil. The first thing I noticed when I used it was the pleasant odor left behind. Not to be a sissy about stinky things. lol, but some of those other brands are pretty raunchy.
> I haven't noticed any carbon build up problems. There is always a tad bit of clean oil on the piston sides when I dismantle to inspect after a few tanks of mix. I run 50:1 and with the amount oil residue left behind after a good running, I'm interested in possibly donating a used cup and jug to the name of chainsaw science by testing 55 or 60:1. It'll either be a quick test, or who knows how long of a test. As we all know the ratio has been getting lower as the quality of oil has improved. Back in the day it was about 16:1 with sae 30, now it's 50:1 with almost everything current.


That's what I use seems to do the trick but I'm a light user.


----------



## Big_Wood

has anyone tried the royal purple oil? they make a premix one i used a quart of a couple weeks ago but i was to in the work to do any inspections before i switched back to lucas. i don't think the saws noticed a difference though  might have to pick up another bottle next time i'm in the city.


----------



## Termite

Here is an oil test I find interesting. I was thinking of trying some Legend oil when I finish with this 5 gallons of Baileys synthetic. 
I have used some Lucas oil because it was free. Forest Lucas is a local guy here and I got some from his son in law.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-286148.html

http://www.snowest.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-286148.html


----------



## Deleted member 83629

hardpan said:


> I bought mine about 1979 new. It is all green, black plastic grill in the center of the top housing above the flywheel, plastic carb, steel deck, called the "utility" model as I recall. The absolute best engine I have ever owned. I have done nothing but clean the muffler once in all this time and it has gone places no push mower should ever go. I have replaced the deck and wheels though. Can you tell me the correct name for it and where to find parts? I have a pin hole in the primer bulb. Oh, and the only oil I have ever used in it is Lawn Boy 32:1. I may soon change to the same mix I use in all my other 2-strokes, currently Maxima K2 32:1. One more thing, until a year ago my Lawn Boy has always ran fine on crap, stale, pump gas with ethanol and no failed rubber and plastic parts. Now I mix with non ethanol gas and it possibly runs a little better. I wonder why these high dollar chainsaw fuel lines and carbs drop like flies when fed ethanol.


http://tewarehouse.com/7-02310


----------



## Deleted member 83629

westcoaster90 said:


> has anyone tried the royal purple oil? they make a premix one i used a quart of a couple weeks ago but i was to in the work to do any inspections before i switched back to lucas. i don't think the saws noticed a difference though  might have to pick up another bottle next time i'm in the city.


royal purple is TCW3 I wouldn't dare in a aircooled engine except my lawn boy it calls for the stuff.


----------



## Big_Wood

jakewells said:


> royal purple is TCW3 I wouldn't dare in a aircooled engine except my lawn boy it calls for the stuff.



Use google, they have a TCW3 but also an all purpose pre mix.


----------



## bwalker

Termite said:


> Here is an oil test I find interesting. I was thinking of trying some Legend oil when I finish with this 5 gallons of Baileys synthetic.
> I have used some Lucas oil because it was free. Forest Lucas is a local guy here and I got some from his son in law.
> 
> http://www.snowest.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-286148.html
> 
> http://www.snowest.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-286148.html


I have used Legend in sleds. It smells just like Klotz. The marketing of this oil is complete bs, but despite that it's an ok product.


----------



## Big_Wood

jakewells said:


> royal purple is TCW3 I wouldn't dare in a aircooled engine except my lawn boy it calls for the stuff.



i see what you mean now. it appears their TCW3 oil was just renamed. says safe to use in chainsaws though. i did and the saw felt like it had the same power as stihl ultra  didn't stink either. down right acceptable regardless of lubrication properties LOL i'm gonna stick with lucas though. royal purple be for rich people.






http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/hp-2c-2-cycle-engine-oil/


----------



## KenJax Tree

I heard Lucas looks dry even at 32:1....it was on AS so it must be true!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

westcoaster90 said:


> Use google, they have a TCW3 but also an all purpose pre mix.


uh huh


----------



## CR500

KenJax Tree said:


> I heard Lucas looks dry even at 32:1....it was on AS so it must be true!!


HP2 for the win haha 

Sent from my non internal combustion device.


----------



## KenJax Tree

CR500 said:


> HP2 for the win haha
> 
> Sent from my non internal combustion device.


I like it


----------



## porsche965

Honda is a quality company. Can't imagine anything with their name on it not being good.


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> I heard Lucas looks dry even at 32:1....it was on AS so it must be true!!


I really liked the Lucas full synthetic.... it ran just fine in my saws with no stink or smoke.... price is very good too. Still have about 3/4 of a gallon left and intend to use it up once my K2 is gone.


----------



## nitehawk55

hardpan said:


> I bought mine about 1979 new. It is all green, black plastic grill in the center of the top housing above the flywheel, plastic carb, steel deck, called the "utility" model as I recall. The absolute best engine I have ever owned. I have done nothing but clean the muffler once in all this time and it has gone places no push mower should ever go. I have replaced the deck and wheels though. Can you tell me the correct name for it and where to find parts? I have a pin hole in the primer bulb. Oh, and the only oil I have ever used in it is Lawn Boy 32:1. I may soon change to the same mix I use in all my other 2-strokes, currently Maxima K2 32:1. One more thing, until a year ago my Lawn Boy has always ran fine on crap, stale, pump gas with ethanol and no failed rubber and plastic parts. Now I mix with non ethanol gas and it possibly runs a little better. I wonder why these high dollar chainsaw fuel lines and carbs drop like flies when fed ethanol.



The one place I've had good luck is this fellow for parts http://www.milfordpower.com/Lawn-Boy-O-E-M-Replacement-Parts-s/315.htm and any Toro dealer that's been around for a while will usually have stuff or be able to order for you , ebay too as a last resort and always keep an eye at yard sales or out back in the junk pile at dealers .
Nothing wrong with 32:1 but I run mine at 40:1 and the exhaust port holes stay clean . That ethanol is bad stuff in those plastic carbs . Now is yours all plastic or just the bowel ? I don't recall any plastic carbs till the F series came out . The other thing you should change at some point are the crank seals if you've never done it . You'll notice it getting hard to start if they are starting to go . Not as critical so they damage the engine like as saw , these engines are only running about 3500 RPM .


----------



## porsche965

I wonder what the top 5 two-stroke oils used by AS members are?


----------



## KenJax Tree

porsche965 said:


> I wonder what the top 5 two-stroke oils used by AS members are?


Im willing to bet its none listed in this thread


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> i see what you mean now. it appears their TCW3 oil was just renamed. says safe to use in chainsaws though. i did and the saw felt like it had the same power as stihl ultra  didn't stink either. down right acceptable regardless of lubrication properties LOL i'm gonna stick with lucas though. royal purple be for rich people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/hp-2c-2-cycle-engine-oil/


That's a ashless marine oil not suitable for saw use.


----------



## Bwildered

NWCoaster said:


> To tell you the truth, you would have to look through every last chemical that is in the additive/oil and all the components in that particular blend of gasoline. Would be very time consuming trying to verify all that info. From working in a refinery/refineries and being an Industrial firefighter/hazmat tech for more than 20 years, I can honestly tell you none of it is GOOD for you. Just the gasoline alone when you are filling up the fuel can..... Benzine is one of the worst chemicals that you can be exposed to, yet we do it all the time when filling up the car.... that sweet smell in the air is one of the worst carcinogens known. Our allowable time weighted average for exposure over an 8 hour work period usd to be 1 ppm ( Part per million). I think it has been changed to "0" now. Not good stuff.
> The other one I see on here is people using leaded gasoline. I know its good stuff , but oh boy.... using that in an area with restricted ventilation for long periods of time.....It sounds corny, but I am actually concerned for the people using it - the amount of lead they are breathing in is a serious risk to their health.
> In the end when it comes down to chemicals and acute and chronic health risks and potential for damage, dosage is the most important factor ( Mg/Kg) and then exposure over time. Some chemicals produce acute effects with no chronic issues, some no acute issues but with serious chronic potential ( Mutagens, carcinogens) like benzene.
> The most practical way to reduce risk from the exhaust is through engineering controls ( Ventilation , isolation, wind at your back...L0l) or secondarily, PPE. I don't foresee any of you using a half face respirator when using a chainsaw. The gist of it is , think about what you are doing before you start and try to arrange how you are working when possible to reduce the amount of exposure to the exhaust while working with a chainsaw..... trying to isolate any one additive or chemical is pretty much a moot point.... all of the exhaust is harmful to your body in one shape or form. Take care of yourselves guys, your body will thank you. ( As a side not, I think on average refinery workers live ten years shorter than the average for all fields of work) We have had 7 fatalities in the refinery I work in since I have been there over 21 years. As a firefighter, seeing the after effects up close of what happens to your co-workers when things go really bad is an eye opener on the possible effects of working in an industrial environment. I try to protect myself from short and long term risks as much as possible on an everyday basis..... sometimes its just a little prethought that makes the difference, Mark.


You mentioned engineering controls in reducing risk, as this is an oil thread where some are running 20:1 which isn't engineering a control risk but going in the exact opposite direction to what is required to reduce the risk.
Thansk


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> That's a ashless marine oil not suitable for saw use.



well it says suitable for chainsaw so i ran it like any other. did i ruin my life not running m800. heck no! like i said, it's for rich people and i was feeling rich that day. just so you know too. the 562 runs great with that oil. you should try it


----------



## KenJax Tree

NWCoaster said:


> I really liked the Lucas full synthetic.... it ran just fine in my saws with no stink or smoke.... price is very good too. Still have about 3/4 of a gallon left and intend to use it up once my K2 is gone.


But K2 has PIB, you're gonna die!!!! And solvents its not 100% oil


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> well it says suitable for chainsaw so i ran it like any other. did i ruin my life not running m800. heck no! like i said, it's for rich people and i was feeling rich that day. just so you know too. the 562 runs great with that oil. you should try it


Despite what they say, it's not suitable for a chainsaw. No *** OEM reccomends or sells an ashless oil, as they are not optimal for air cooled engine.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> You mentioned engineering controls in reducing risk, as this is an oil thread where some are running 20:1 which isn't engineering a control risk but going in the exact opposite direction to what is required to reduce the risk.
> Thansk


The vast majority of emmissions coming from *** are unburnt fuel. If it's a concern buy a saw that is strato charged. They run clean regardless of oil ratio.


----------



## NWCoaster

Bwildered said:


> You mentioned engineering controls in reducing risk, as this is an oil thread where some are running 20:1 which isn't engineering a control risk but going in the exact opposite direction to what is required to reduce the risk.
> Thansk


I agree, if the saw is not burning the mixture clean and partially burnt fuel and oil is in the exhaust, it stands to reason it would be worse to breath.


----------



## NWCoaster

KenJax Tree said:


> But K2 has PIB, you're gonna die!!!! And solvents its not 100% oil


My wife is looking at me funny wondering why I'm laughing my ass off at the computer right now..... Lol.


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> I agree, if the saw is not burning the mixture clean and partially burnt fuel and oil is in the exhaust, it stands to reason it would be worse to breath.


Non strato two strokes never burn all the fuel admitted to the engine, even if running right. The puke out a ton of unburnt fuel in the exhaust.


----------



## huskihl

Me thinks some of y'all might be better suited to an electric chainsaw.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have an electric remington for carpentry ,thing scares the crap out of me ,no clutch so it kicks back big time .


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> Im willing to bet its none listed in this thread


that poulan 40:1 oil at walmart is good stuff. i used it for years till i joined this place.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The vast majority of emmissions coming from *** are unburnt fuel. If it's a concern buy a saw that is strato charged. They run clean regardless of oil ratio.


Strato saws run cleaner but are still inefficient at burning all the fuel & oil, running them at 50:1 minimises the risk to an acceptable level, 20:1 is not an acceptable level for a safe work environment.


----------



## huskihl

Which brand of extension cord is best for my electric chainsaw?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Strato saws run cleaner but are still inefficient at burning all the fuel & oil, running them at 50:1 minimises the risk to an acceptable level, 20:1 is not an acceptable level for a safe work environment.


The oil is such a small percentage that it's in consequentl.


----------



## KenJax Tree

huskihl said:


> Me thinks some of y'all might be better suited to an electric chainsaw.


Still needs bar oil, but thats a whole different thread and argument.


----------



## tomscott

I have just finished my first 2.5 gallons of gas with Maxima K2 and I hadn't realized how bad Stihl Ultra stunk until I ran this. The K2 is nearly odorless, but when I do smell a mild bit of it I like the smell. Running 40:1 not counting the MMO that is already in all the gas I buy, so I really have a little more oil than 40:1. Everything is running great on it. I am also doing my patriotic duty and driving an hour round trip to buy ethanol free fuel...

My first bottle of K2 was about $14 for a 16 ounce bottle. Now that I know I like it and will continue to run it, I will step up and buy the 64 ounce bottle, about $33 currently on Amazon. Pretty good price drop if you are willing to buy 64 ounces of oil at once.


----------



## LowVolt

KenJax Tree said:


> Im willing to bet its none listed in this thread


300+ pages and we have not discussed the top 5?!?!?

F**k, let's talk about those.......


----------



## NWCoaster

huskihl said:


> Which brand of extension cord is best for my electric chainsaw?


Purple. Wtf? You can't run an electric chainsaw! Do you realize that electricity comes from coal fired plants..... you are gonna pollute the atmosphere and kill us all!!


----------



## NWCoaster

LowVolt said:


> 300+ pages and we have not discussed the top 5?!?!?
> 
> F**k, let's talk about those.......


Need a poll.....


----------



## Justsaws

NWCoaster said:


> Purple. Wtf? You can't run an electric chainsaw! Do you realize that electricity comes from coal fired plants..... you are gonna pollute the atmosphere and kill us all!!



That is why all the cool places use clean burning nuclear fuel at............



Wait for it...............






32:1, Lucas, the dry lube.


----------



## Justsaws

Trx250r180 said:


> I have an electric remington for carpentry ,thing scares the crap out of me ,no clutch so it kicks back big time .



Pour some Lucas on it, you could use the Mobil but it is soooooo wet looking the glare might blind you.


----------



## Justsaws

huskihl said:


> Which brand of extension cord is best for my electric chainsaw?



LUCAS, at 32:1 or something and guns, maybe knives or freak'n lawn mowers from the 50s.


----------



## tomscott

Trx250r180 said:


> I have an electric remington for carpentry ,thing scares the crap out of me ,no clutch so it kicks back big time .


Lock the chain brake and use it as a handsaw! It is carpentry...


----------



## huskihl

Barbie called. Ken wants his 2 stroke oil back.


----------



## huskihl

NWCoaster said:


> Purple. Wtf? You can't run an electric chainsaw! Do you realize that electricity comes from coal fired plants..... you are gonna pollute the atmosphere and kill us all!!


Too bad power plants don't run on super tech 2 stroke oil. I love the smell of tcw3 in the morning


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The oil is such a small percentage that it's in consequentl.


Sorry thats total rubbish, even if you're a 60 a day smoker its not inconsequential, even though it may not seem so, the powers to be want 2 strokes phased out all together because of the health risks caused by their exhaust emissions.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Sorry thats total rubbish, even if you're a 60 a day smoker its not inconsequential, even though it may not seem so, the powers to be want 2 strokes phased out all together because of the health risks caused by their exhaust emissions.


Oil ratio isn't much of a factor as it pertains to HC emmissions. Especially in a strato saw.
And just like carbon emmissions. Emmissions of *** is greatly overstated as it pertains to health effects. Lest we would have loggers and arborist dropping dead left and right


----------



## Mastermind

I killed some trees in Maryland a few days ago. My saw started and run. 

I was amazed.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Oil ratio isn't much of a factor as it pertains to HC emmissions. Especially in a strato saw.
> And just like carbon emmissions. Emmissions of *** is greatly overstated as it pertains to health effects. Lest we would have loggers and arborist dropping dead left and right


They do drop dead & well before their allotted time too, lungs are not meant to suck in crap, unless they are yours of course.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> They do drop dead & well before their allotted time too, lungs are not meant to suck in crap, unless they are yours of course.


Smokes and booze account for alot of that.


----------



## LowVolt

NWCoaster said:


> Need a poll.....


For what? To say that there are 5 oils out there that most members are using and they have not been discussed it a bold statement. If it's true please chime in and tell us what you are using.


----------



## blsnelling

I seriously doubt that's true.


----------



## Mastermind

I need oil on my hip and knee joints.....what do y'all recommend?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Mastermind said:


> I need oil on my hip and knee joints.....what do y'all recommend?


delo extreme pressure high temp grease on your joints randy


----------



## mdavlee

I like coconut oil for that.


----------



## NWCoaster

LowVolt said:


> For what? To say that there are 5 oils out there that most members are using and they have not been discussed it a bold statement. If it's true please chime in and tell us what you are using.


No, I thought you meant what are the top 5 oils people are using.


----------



## Trx250r180

Went to use a saw today,it would npt pull over,the engine is stuck,have mot had time to look at it yet,just grabbed another one and did the cutting,i meed to look in the tank see if yamalube or mobil in that one,hope its somethinh in the flywheel and not my top end


----------



## Deleted member 83629

maybe your arm got stuck, it might need some oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I doubt its the oil, unless of course it has PIB and solvents, in which case its not 100% oil so it seized for sure.


----------



## KenJax Tree

mdavlee said:


> I like coconut oil for that.


My wife uses lavender oil and forgets to rinse the tub and i get in to take a shower and about break my f$&@?! neck.


----------



## porsche965

KenJax Tree said:


> My wife uses lavender oil and forgets to rinse the tub and i get in to take a shower and about break my f$&@?! neck.



I have the same problem lol. Stepping gingerly after the wife's use of a tub is wise.


----------



## porsche965

What about a little Lavender mixed in the fuel mix? Smells great! After all it is an oil.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

why not some fuel scents mixed in the local race shop has one called reefer madness and cotton candy.


----------



## Trx250r180

Was something in the flywheel,rollef it clockwise was stuck ,counterclockwise whatever was in there fell out


----------



## Justsaws

Trx250r180 said:


> Was something in the flywheel,rollef it clockwise was stuck ,counterclockwise whatever was in there fell out



Probably just some HR1, that stuff hates flywheels and loves counterclockwise.


----------



## Dave27483

porsche965 said:


> Honda is a quality company. Can't imagine anything with their name on it not being good.


But so is stihl, its a quality company, and there oil has been tested and designed in house by stihl.... Makes sense to me. I even run it in my huskys


----------



## the GOAT

How many people on here have actually blown up a saw due to an oil related failure?


----------



## KenJax Tree

the GOAT said:


> How many people on here have actually blown up a saw due to an oil related failure?


Only PIB and solvents will melt a saw down.


----------



## brockhaskins

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm out of oil so now what do i buy?[emoji1]


I'm very happy with Super m. Runs good doesn't smell bad and reasonably priced


----------



## the GOAT

I thought PIB was the way to go?!?

What about BENOL, I hear all the PSP's are using it.


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## Mastermind

Is this where the goat phuckin is going down?


----------



## redbull660

ISIS headquarters?


----------



## KenJax Tree

ISIS brothel


----------



## Ron660

the GOAT said:


> How many people on here have actually blown up a saw due to an oil related failure?


I asked that about 200 pages back....but added at 32:1. I know several Loggers with engine failures (lower end bearings) mixing 50:1. Failures were less than 6 months with pro stihls and huskies (440's & 372's). Longevity increased when mixed at 40:1 and 32:1.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I asked that about 200 pages back....but added at 32:1. I know several Loggers with engine failures (lower end bearings) mixing 50:1. Failures were less than 6 months with pro stihls and huskies (440's & 372's). Longevity increased when mixed at 40:1 and 32:1.


I have always ran 32:1 and have never had a saw fail.
Kind of a meaningless question as most on the this site never put many hours on their saws.


----------



## the GOAT

bwalker said:


> Kind of a meaningless question as most on the this site never put many hours on their saws.


Yeah, that was my point.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I have always ran 32:1 and have never had a saw fail.
> Kind of a meaningless question as most on the this site never put many hours on their saws.


Loggers, tree service, and milling operators use more fuel in a week than most of use do in a year. Input from them wouldn't be meaningless. Since no response was given ANY premix at 32:1 would probably be adequate.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Loggers, tree service, and milling operators use more fuel in a week than most of use do in a year. Input from them wouldn't be meaningless. Since no response was given ANY premix at 32:1 would probably be adequate.


Except there isn't a lot of those guys on this thread..
Just look at the pictures of saws posted here. Most look as if they haven't been ran for even a week in the woods!
I had guys making fun of my well used EHP 346 when I posted a pic of it.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Except there isn't a lot of those guys on this thread..
> Just look at the pictures of saws posted here. Most look as if they haven't been ran for even a week in the woods!
> I had guys making fun of my well used EHP 346 when I posted a pic of it.



They only made fun of you because its you ............................... the one who allways makes fun of everyone elses "prissy" looking saws

Quite honestly, I couldnt give a rats rear end what you or anyone think about how much or how little I run my stuff, or how ugly or prissy they do/dont look.


I do, however, appreciate your knowledgeable input in this thread .............. the last of my Bel Ray is just about done running through the lawn tractor.


----------



## bwalker

You missed the point.
The point is most of the people on here accumulate very few hours in a year.
The guys that do put alot of hours in a year often don't gave a shat about oil. As such asking about oil ratio is almost meaningless.
FWIW a know of one logger that runs Walmart SuperTech outboard oil and has for years. He also doesn't measure how much oil he puts in a cab, just dumps it in till it looks right. Most of his stuff runs along time, but he has lost some too. All the motors of his I have seen torn apart look terrible.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> You missed the point.
> Asking about oil ratio is almost meaningless.



NOW you tell me ........................ You could'nt have told me earlier ............ so I would'nt have had to read all 317 pages, eh ??


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You missed the point.
> The point is most of the people on here accumulate very few hours in a year.
> The guys that do put alot of hours in a year often don't gave a shat about oil. As such asking about oil ratio is almost meaningless.
> FWIW a know of one logger that runs Walmart SuperTech outboard oil and has for years. He also doesn't measure how much oil he puts in a cab, just dumps it in till it looks right. Most of his stuff runs along time, but he has lost some too. All the motors of his I have seen torn apart look terrible.


True, the ones I know use the cheapest gas (87 octane with ethanol) and use the Stihl orange bottle or ultra. They say, "as long as it works thats all that matters".


----------



## Trx250r180

I think my 660 gets the most use of my collection ,even if it is a weekend warrior saw . It is full use on the mill .There is not a tree around here a 440 wont cut so no need to pack the extra weight around for falling and bucking .


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


>


 
ISIS guard dogs?


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I think my 660 gets the most use of my collection ,even if it is a weekend warrior saw . It is full use on the mill .There is not a tree around here a 440 wont cut so no need to pack the extra weight around for falling and bucking .


 How many gallons of 2-cycle oil do you use in a year?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> How many gallons of 2-cycle oil do you use in a year?


Between all my stuff maybe 75 or more ,no where near what a guy doing it for a living would use ,in a couple hours of milling i can use a gallon or more


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> True, the ones I know use the cheapest gas (87 octane with ethanol) and use the Stihl orange bottle or ultra. They say, "as long as it works thats all that matters".


Stihl oil is way to expensive for this guy. And really for him saws are a cheap piece of disposable equipement that only needs to last a few years tops.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ron660 said:


> True, the ones I know use the cheapest gas (87 octane with ethanol) and use the Stihl orange bottle or ultra. They say, "as long as it works thats all that matters".


I can't disagree


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Between all my stuff maybe 75 or more ,no where near what a guy doing it for a living would use ,in a couple hours of milling i can use a gallon or more


 Thats a lot in my book.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Thats a lot in my book.


I burn through about ten gallons on average a week in my MX bikes and maybe 5 a month in the saws, and BP blower. I am using less fuel in the *** now as both my primary saw (562xp) and BP blower (Redmax 8000) are strato charged.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> Thats a lot in my book.


I asked a couple fallers how long their saws last ,50 to 1 stihl mix they run them for about a year ,by then they are getting beat up so they get a new one ,and make that the back up saw ,by year 2 they are parts saws or sold to firewood guys ,
these guys cut 6 hour days 5 days a week ,only time off is if too hot out and shut down ,or between jobs when moving equipment


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I burn through about ten gallons on average a week in my MX bikes and maybe 5 a month in the saws, and BP blower. I am using less fuel in the *** now as both my primary saw (562xp) and BP blower (Redmax 8000) are strato charged.


When i was racing would use 5-10 gallons a week in the quad ,it was maxima 927 though ,on a dune trip i would burn over 5 gallons a day ,the sand really sucks power and fuel compared to dirt .


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I asked a couple fallers how long their saws last ,50 to 1 stihl mix they run them for about a year ,by then they are getting beat up so they get a new one ,and make that the back up saw ,by year 2 they are parts saws or sold to firewood guys ,
> these guys cut 6 hour days 5 days a week ,only time off is if too hot out and shut down ,or between jobs when moving equipment


Do they shut down for spring break up out your way?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> When i was racing would use 5-10 gallons a week in the quad ,it was maxima 927 though ,on a dune trip i would burn over 5 gallons a day ,the sand really sucks power and fuel compared to dirt .


Its almost all sand up here most of the places we ride so you burn up a ton of fuel. Plus a 250 mx bike wrung out doesn't exactly sip fuel.


----------



## KenJax Tree

We're going camping Sunday for a week so we'll hit Silver Lake a few times.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Do they shut down for spring break up out your way?


no,only time they shut down is if they are told to for fire danger ,they run 5 days a week ,if the mills are open on sat they will run trucks if price is good ,here is the scale shacks i pass in the am on the way to work ,there is a mill across the street from the scales ,sometimes trucks are lined up both sides of highway waiting to get in ,guys in trucks normally get up at 3 am and drop off first load at 6-7 am ,then get 2 more loads before go home .


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Its almost all sand up here most of the places we ride so you burn up a ton of fuel. Plus a 250 mx bike wrung out doesn't exactly sip fuel.


Niks cylinder at 302cc ,ported by Arlen at Lrd ,this was a real good running bike ,last 250 before went to the 450's


----------



## Miles86

bwalker said:


> Despite what they say, it's not suitable for a chainsaw. No *** OEM reccomends or sells an ashless oil, as they are not optimal for air cooled engine.



Howdy-

Stihl Ultra is an _ashless _dispersant-detergent oil.

http://www.stihl.com/stihl-hp-ultra-high-performance-engine-oil.aspx

The base oil (ester) give the film strength (in hydrodynamic mode)


----------



## one.man.band

...pour in the ash-tray?

the latest msds for stihl usa ultra is just a month or two old.......new formulation?


----------



## bwalker

Miles86 said:


> Howdy-
> 
> Stihl Ultra is an _ashless _dispersant-detergent oil.
> 
> http://www.stihl.com/stihl-hp-ultra-high-performance-engine-oil.aspx
> 
> The base oil (ester) give the film strength (in hydrodynamic mode)


No wonder redbulls piston looked so bad.
Nitrogen based, ashless disperants do not work above 300 degree ring belt temps.
this HTML class. http://www.seadoo.net/the-late-great-oil-debate/2015/04/


----------



## bwalker

I might add that this is the first time I have seen a *** market an ashless oil for air cooled equipment.
Stihl might have been smart to have talked to some other OEM's like the snowmobile and jetski makers that went down the same road with poor results in the early 90's


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I might add that this is the first time I have seen a *** market an ashless oil for air cooled equipment.
> Stihl might have been smart to have talked to some other OEM's like the snowmobile and jetski makers that went down the same road with poor results in the early 90's


Now you can go around saying that ashless oil is recommended by a OEM, no excuses needed then for living in the past.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Now you can go around saying that ashless oil is recommended by a OEM, no excuses needed then for living in the past.


Except this is living in the past.. same thing was tried 25 years ago. Didn't work out to well then..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Except this is living in the past.. same thing was tried 25 years ago. Didn't work out to well then..


What a load of rubbish, you got caught out again, things have moved along quite a bit since the nineties & those that have moved with the times have saved loads of money, time & their lungs. And it just keeps getting better with newer technology.


----------



## bwalker

I haven't got caught at anything, dumb azz..
And things have moved along since the 90's, hence my comment on talking to other OEM'S...


----------



## Big_Wood

i'm sitting here with the owner of the company i've been working for. he burns over 1000 gallons a year between him and his crew. he read a little of this thread. he told me to tell you guys lifes to short to worry about what oil you run. run air cooled oil and your golden. i then told him that most here probably burn 6 tanks a year and he told me to tell those guys that your ****ed for even worrying. buy the cheapest **** available as that saw will last you a life time. the way he put iot was that if he runs 12 tanks a day with the cheapest **** oil getting 2 years out of a saw and the few here run the cheapest **** oil at 6 tanks a year a saw should last you 80 years LOL


----------



## Tor R

I'm running the cheapest oil i could get, mobil 1 racing 2t


----------



## HuskStihl

The typical oil thread on the logging forum is "how can I save money on fuel mix". Fancy over there is baileys synthetic


----------



## Gypo Logger

Has anyone actually limbed a tree in full leaf running 32:1 synthetic? Try it, then you'll go back to the dino oil.
That synthetic crap sticks to everything.


----------



## Big_Wood

Gypo Logger said:


> Has anyone actually limbed a tree in full leaf running 32:1 synthetic? Try it, then you'll go back to the dino oil.
> That synthetic crap sticks to everything.



your beveraging aren't you? take a couple down for me.


----------



## Andyshine77

westcoaster90 said:


> your beveraging aren't you? take a couple down for me.



I was thinking the same thing. Go Gypo go!!!


----------



## Gypo Logger

westcoaster90 said:


> your beveraging aren't you? take a couple down for me.


No beveraging me. Liquid refreshment? Yes! Lol.


----------



## Big_Wood

Gypo Logger said:


> No beveraging me. Liquid refreshment? Yes! Lol.



your so FOS john. i saw a post you made earlier and knew you were thirsty. stirring up **** in an oil thread, how could you sink so low


----------



## Gypo Logger

westcoaster90 said:


> your so FOS john. i saw a post you made earlier and knew you were thirsty. stirring up **** in an oil thread, how could you sink so low


Bob's on F&L pounding on a poor unsuspecting member on his Fire thread. So I jumped in to meadiate. Lol


----------



## Big_Wood

Gypo Logger said:


> Bob's on F&L pounding on a poor unsuspecting member on his Fire thread. So I jumped in to meadiate. Lol



i'll go check it out if i can find it. damn machine operators gotta be put in their place


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I haven't got caught at anything, dumb azz..
> And things have moved along since the 90's, hence my comment on talking to other OEM'S...


And what wanker wouldn't say that against the evidence presented.
Ryobi also now have an ashless synthetic oil for their air cooled 2 stroke equipment, looks like your opinions on the subject mean jack, I can't wait for the dribble that will flow forth still trying to defend your old retarded opinions.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> And what wanker wouldn't say that against the evidence presented.
> Ryobi also now have an ashless synthetic oil for their air cooled 2 stroke equipment, looks like your opinions on the subject mean jack, I can't wait for the dribble that will flow forth still trying to defend your old retarded opinions.


Ashless isn't anything new..it was tried in aircooled applications 20 or more years ago and was a failure..
Btw worked on any mcmillans lately, you liar?


----------



## porsche965

Anyone have any opinions about Woodland Pro Synthetic Oil?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Ashless isn't anything new..it was tried in aircooled applications 20 or more years ago and was a failure..
> Btw worked on any mcmillans lately, you liar?


bwalker said: ↑
Despite what they say, it's not suitable for a chainsaw. No *** OEM reccomends or sells an ashless oil, as they are not optimal for air cooled engine.
Really how far do you have to go to remove all doubt about the lunacy of your debate?
It looks like the R&D departments of some leading global companies haven't been on a permanent holiday, like you have since the time when you should have lost your squeaky voice & your agate/s dropped. While your at it check up on the McMillan site as well, their stocks don't automatically come with pillar blocks, they can be ordered with or without & they don't recommend them as breach bedding is their preferred method, it's funny you call people liars when your living the lie.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i use ashless oil in my 2 strokes other than a little more carbon deposits on the exhaust port its good stuff and it is CHEAP.


----------



## porsche965

Let's not worry about the price unless you are using gallons per month.


----------



## porsche965

Just so happens Woodland Pro is a real value but so far seems to be a really good Synthetic oil from what I've experienced so far in ported saws.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

my two stroke mower requires a oil of ashless quality or TCW3R
so i use the same mix in everything i have never noticed any performance problems or wear other than a little smoke when it is cold


----------



## Miles86

bwalker said:


> I might add that this is the first time I have seen a *** market an ashless oil for air cooled equipment.
> Stihl might have been smart to have talked to some other OEM's like the snowmobile and jetski makers that went down the same road with poor results in the early 90's



Howdy-

Yes BW, I have a tough time in my head accepting the ashless versus something low-ash, I am certain Stihl did in-house testing (as shown in the article). Are base oils are improved to the point where the oil is the best combination of clean operating and protection ? (outside of a racing 2 stroke kart)

http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf

Verifying on my $99 leaf blower using Stihl Ultra.

I use 20:1 and tune carb for this ratio, no carbon build at all, and on the 3rd year Stihl Ultra, all OK.

I can't prove this- but I believe from some older MSDS sheets - that Echo Red Armor is ashless (see the corrosion inhibitor).

Rated jaso like stihl ultra. So maybe ashless no longer means outboard motors only?


http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
http://additives.shamrockoils.com/l...ibitor/rust-and-corrosion-inhibitor-1?print=1

Any corrections or info appreciated !


----------



## huskihl

Miles86 said:


> Howdy-
> 
> Yes BW, I have a tough time in my head accepting the ashless versus something low-ash, I am certain Stihl did in-house testing (as shown in the article). Are base oils are improved to the point where the oil is the best combination of clean operating and protection ? (outside of a racing 2 stroke kart)
> 
> http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
> 
> Verifying on my $99 leaf blower using Stihl Ultra.
> 
> I use 20:1 and tune carb for this ratio, no carbon build at all, and on the 3rd year Stihl Ultra, all OK.
> 
> I can't prove this- but I believe from some older MSDS sheets - that Echo Red Armor is ashless (see the corrosion inhibitor).
> 
> Rated jaso like stihl ultra. So maybe ashless no longer means outboard motors only?
> 
> 
> http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
> http://additives.shamrockoils.com/l...ibitor/rust-and-corrosion-inhibitor-1?print=1
> 
> Any corrections or info appreciated !


Seems like it was mentioned 25 or 30,000 posts ago that ultra was rated Jaso fb (like tcw3)? Or was that older stuff back when they used to argue about which tcw3 was best for a saw? (Shrug). I can't remember. Oop. Gotta go. Barbie's calling again....


----------



## Deleted member 83629

TCW3 carry's a rating from API as TC which is jaso FA,FB
API TC+ is jaso FC,FB


----------



## windthrown

I see that this BS endless oil rant still continues... what a waste of server space.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

huskihl said:


> Seems like it was mentioned 25 or 30,000 posts ago that ultra was rated Jaso fb (like tcw3)? Or was that older stuff back when they used to argue about which tcw3 was best for a saw? (Shrug). I can't remember. Oop. Gotta go. Barbie's calling again....


pennzoil and valvoline carry oil called multi purpose 2t it rated nmma tcw3 and api tc on the back


----------



## windthrown

jakewells said:


> TCW3 carry's a rating from API as TC which is jaso FA,FB
> API TC+ is jaso FC,FB



You are basically incorrect in this post.

API is a series of old oil standards and ratings that are mostly extinct. They are not equivalent to any other standards. No one manages or updates API any more, but people still use them as a 'standard.'
TC-W3 is a standard for oil specifically intended for use in water cooled marine 2-stroke engines (and also commonly used in snow machine engines).
JASO FA/FB/FC/FD is a Japanese standard for air cooled 2-stroke motorcycle engines. They are similar to the European ISO standards which also apply to air cooled engines, but ISO includes more testing for piston cleanliness and detergent effect.

You would be a fool to use a TC-W3 water cooled or so called 'multi-purpose' 2-stroke oil in an air cooled 2-stroke engine like in a chainsaw. It will work in a pinch, but they are designed differently. The biggest difference is that water cooled oils are designed for engines with much lower combustion temps and much lower revs than chainsaws.

From a post long ago on AS by tdi-rick:

...watercaft oils are designed for engines with much lower combustion temps and much lower revs, typically up to about 7,000RPM.

The additive package is designed to keep the ring grooves and chamber clean at these low revs and temps. If you use them in a high speed, air cooled two stroke you'll probably seize the engine as the additive package isn't designed to cope with the high skirt load and ring land and chamber temps, it breaks down too soon and high wear occurs.

Conversely, if you use an air cooled specific oil in an outboard, you'll gum up the rings, chamber and exhaust pretty quickly and pollute the water it's discharged into. 

Yep, no point in reading or posting on this forum any more. Everything has long since been forgotten, and douchebags rule here.


----------



## Stihlman441

As far as I know this is the same thing different label contact MCW Matt he has been using it for years in ported saws


----------



## huskihl

windthrown said:


> You would be a fool to use a TC-W3 water cooled or so called 'multi-purpose' 2-stroke oil in an air cooled 2-stroke engine like in a chainsaw.


While I agree with you 95% of the time, I don't think this has been "proven" here, only followed as a belief. There are many loggers who get many years of service from a chainsaw engine being run exclusively on tcw3 oil. I'm not saying it's recommended, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work well. I'd be willing to bet no one here, with enough experience to know for certain, has ever burned up a chainsaw engine because of running a tcw3 oil. Real world experience says quite the opposite. Evidence is not there to call them fools. 

IME, non synthetic oils seem to preserve soft rubber replaceable parts and protect carb internals better than synthetics. Case in point: my 92 husky 51. Never had the cylinder cover off. Never a carb kit. Never a fuel or impulse hose replaced. It's had minimal use the last 10 years (20 hours a year), but to me, that's testament to my belief.

My 1995 stihl ts400 concrete saw had the same experience, although I did replace the fuel hose this past winter. 

I've been trying some fd rated oils lately. They do seem to run cleaner (examining the exhaust port). And I'll continue to use them unless I'm replacing rubber parts next year. I use my saws daily or weekly and there's no way in hell I'm dumping out my mix after daily use. If I add up the hourly cost of me or employees dumping out fuel every time, replacing rubber parts because they're prematurely worn out, and all the apparent hassles of the AS crowd (that I've never experienced until coming here), them I'm going back to my cheap, and apparently highly effective, tcw3 oil. 

Don't knock what you obviously haven't tried.


----------



## NWCoaster

Yep, no point in reading or posting on this forum any more. Everything has long since been forgotten, and douchebags rule here.
windthrown,Yesterday at 9:38 PM

What are you trying to say....cmon..... tell us what you really think.... Lol.


----------



## wigglesworth

So.....

Anybody win yet?


----------



## Moparmyway

wigglesworth said:


> So.....
> 
> Anybody win yet?


AFAIK, we dont know who won, but we all now know that H1R lost


----------



## bwalker

Miles86 said:


> Howdy-
> 
> Yes BW, I have a tough time in my head accepting the ashless versus something low-ash, I am certain Stihl did in-house testing (as shown in the article). Are base oils are improved to the point where the oil is the best combination of clean operating and protection ? (outside of a racing 2 stroke kart)
> 
> http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
> 
> Verifying on my $99 leaf blower using Stihl Ultra.
> 
> I use 20:1 and tune carb for this ratio, no carbon build at all, and on the 3rd year Stihl Ultra, all OK.
> 
> I can't prove this- but I believe from some older MSDS sheets - that Echo Red Armor is ashless (see the corrosion inhibitor).
> 
> Rated jaso like stihl ultra. So maybe ashless no longer means outboard motors only?
> 
> 
> http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
> http://additives.shamrockoils.com/l...ibitor/rust-and-corrosion-inhibitor-1?print=1
> 
> Any corrections or info appreciated !


Stihl ultra is not JASO certified. Redbulls results with Ultra, that is to say pretty dirty make sense now, given its ashless.
Echo red armour is not ashless from what I can tell and it is Jaso certified, which confirms.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> TCW3 carry's a rating from API as TC which is jaso FA,FB
> API TC+ is jaso FC,FB


Not true.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> While I agree with you 95% of the time, I don't think this has been "proven" here, only followed as a belief. There are many loggers who get many years of service from a chainsaw engine being run exclusively on tcw3 oil. I'm not saying it's recommended, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work well. I'd be willing to bet no one here, with enough experience to know for certain, has ever burned up a chainsaw engine because of running a tcw3 oil. Real world experience says quite the opposite. Evidence is not there to call them fools.
> 
> IME, non synthetic oils seem to preserve soft rubber replaceable parts and protect carb internals better than synthetics. Case in point: my 92 husky 51. Never had the cylinder cover off. Never a carb kit. Never a fuel or impulse hose replaced. It's had minimal use the last 10 years (20 hours a year), but to me, that's testament to my belief.
> 
> My 1995 stihl ts400 concrete saw had the same experience, although I did replace the fuel hose this past winter.
> 
> I've been trying some fd rated oils lately. They do seem to run cleaner (examining the exhaust port). And I'll continue to use them unless I'm replacing rubber parts next year. I use my saws daily or weekly and there's no way in hell I'm dumping out my mix after daily use. If I add up the hourly cost of me or employees dumping out fuel every time, replacing rubber parts because they're prematurely worn out, and all the apparent hassles of the AS crowd (that I've never experienced until coming here), them I'm going back to my cheap, and apparently highly effective, tcw3 oil.
> 
> Don't knock what you obviously haven't tried.


Windthrown is right.. and syn oils are no harder on rubber parts IME. I would worry about ethanol much more in that regard.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> bwalker said: ↑
> Despite what they say, it's not suitable for a chainsaw. No *** OEM reccomends or sells an ashless oil, as they are not optimal for air cooled engine.
> Really how far do you have to go to remove all doubt about the lunacy of your debate?
> It looks like the R&D departments of some leading global companies haven't been on a permanent holiday, like you have since the time when you should have lost your squeaky voice & your agate/s dropped. While your at it check up on the McMillan site as well, their stocks don't automatically come with pillar blocks, they can be ordered with or without & they don't recommend them as breach bedding is their preferred method, it's funny you call people liars when your living the lie.


I see you still want to continue to lie about Mcmillan stocks and are now trying to crawl away from your original statement...keep digging dumb azz.
And Ryobi is a real global leader...lmfao.


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> Stihl ultra is not JASO certified. Redbulls results with Ultra, that is to say pretty dirty make sense now, given its ashless.
> Echo red armour is not ashless from what I can tell and it is Jaso certified, which confirms.


 It says JASO FB Certified on thier site.......http://www.dhequipment.com/Stihl_info/WhyBuyOilScreen.pdf


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> It says JASO FB Certified on thier site.......http://www.dhequipment.com/Stihl_info/WhyBuyOilScreen.p6df


If it is Jaso certified it will have a very number on the bottle. Ultra doesn't. I believe it uses the "meets jaso fb" verbage.


----------



## bwalker

Go to JASO'S website and look at their certified oils list. It isn't there.


----------



## Trx250r180

I went a whole weekend without using any 2 stroke oil


----------



## Trx250r180

Aw crap no i didn't i drilled 2 post hole with mobil mx2t 32 to 1 in my earthquake driller 

I ran no saws though .....


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Windthrown is right.. and syn oils are no harder on rubber parts IME. I would worry about ethanol much more in that regard.


Well he's not "right" as in tcw3 won't and should never be used in a chainsaw. That's been proven. It may not be what the manufacturers want, but it works fine.

As far as the ethanol, we have only had e free that I've noticed for 2 years here. The 51, my 625, and concrete saw have only ever ran on pump 87 and tcw3. Original rings were worn on the 625 (1988 model) and the concrete saw (1996). As I stated, the ts400 needed a new fuel line. 

So maybe it's the tcw3/pump 87 combination that doesn't eat rubber. Idk. Everything on the 51 is like new inside.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> Well he's not "right" as in tcw3 won't and should never be used in a chainsaw. That's been proven. It may not be what the manufacturers want, but it works fine.
> 
> As far as the ethanol, we have only had e free that I've noticed for 2 years here. The 51, my 625, and concrete saw have only ever ran on pump 87 and tcw3. Original rings were worn on the 625 (1988 model) and the concrete saw (1996). As I stated, the ts400 needed a new fuel line.
> 
> So maybe it's the tcw3/pump 87 combination that doesn't eat rubber. Idk. Everything on the 51 is like new inside.


It works like chit and I am not guessing. And why bother when the correct oil is available?
It's nothing to due with oil in regards to your rubber parts lasting.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I see you still want to continue to lie about Mcmillan stocks and are now trying to crawl away from your original statement...keep digging dumb azz.
> And Ryobi is a real global leader...lmfao.


thats the thing about telling BS stories like you do & telling the truth, there is less to remember when telling the truth! I dont know exactly what your dribbling on about now at all, like youve been shown to be wrong on ashless oils being recommended by manufacturers & mcmillan stocks dont exclusively only come with pillar blocks unless you order them as such ( go to their site & see their order form ) keep the stories comimg as they are very entertaining, just keep them to an almost believable level for the readers enjoyment waiting for the next installment.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> thats the thing about telling BS stories like you do & telling the truth, there is less to remember when telling the truth! I dont know exactly what your dribbling on about now at all, like youve been shown to be wrong on ashless oils being recommended by manufacturers & mcmillan stocks dont exclusively only come with pillar blocks unless you order them as such ( go to their site & see their order form ) keep the stories comimg as they are very entertaining, just keep them to an almost believable level for the readers enjoyment waiting for the next installment.


The edge stock ONLY comes pillar bedded dumb azz... and it's been that way since it was released. I know because I have owned a bunch..since the begining.. so keep on lieing all you want. Anyone with half a brain can see you are nothing but a stupid cull.
And you found one ashless oil that's reccomended for aircooled use..bravo! All the rest are low ash, not that you even know what that means..


----------



## Bwildered

Miles86 said:


> Howdy-
> 
> Yes BW, I have a tough time in my head accepting the ashless versus something low-ash, I am certain Stihl did in-house testing (as shown in the article). Are base oils are improved to the point where the oil is the best combination of clean operating and protection ? (outside of a racing 2 stroke kart)
> 
> http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf
> 
> Verifying on my $99 leaf blower using Stihl Ultra.
> 
> I use 20:1 and tune carb for this ratio, no carbon build at all, and on the 3rd year Stihl Ultra, all OK.
> 
> I can't prove this- but I believe from some older MSDS sheets - that Echo Red Armor is ashless (see the corrosion inhibitor).
> 
> Rated jaso like stihl ultra. So maybe ashless no longer means outboard motors only?
> 
> 
> http://www.shindaiwa-usa.com/getattachment/9ee40453-a8f5-4647-988b-b20ebe5afe03
> http://additives.shamrockoils.com/l...ibitor/rust-and-corrosion-inhibitor-1?print=1
> 
> Any corrections or info appreciated !


the stihl blurb on their synthetic ashless oil shows a clean piston after 500 hrs of use with their synthetic ashless oil against a stained piston using a non ashless oil. they cant advertise the fact if it isnt true because that would be false advertising & they would be open to be nailed by every ambulance chaser looking to make a quick buck, we need to forget every prejudice on the subject because obviously the technology has advanced & changed from something that was once not recommended, just like oil ratios.
thansk


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> the stihl blurb on their synthetic ashless oil shows a clean piston after 500 hrs of use with their synthetic ashless oil against a stained piston using a non ashless oil. they cant advertise the fact if it isnt true because that would be false advertising & they would be open to be nailed by every ambulance chaser looking to make a quick buck, we need to forget every prejudice on the subject because obviously the technology has advanced & changed from something that was once not recommended, just like oil ratios.
> thansk


Really? You are even less intelligent than I thought. Slick 50 user too?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The edge stock ONLY comes pillar bedded dumb azz... and it's been that way since it was released. I know because I have owned a bunch..since the begining.. so keep on lieing all you want. Anyone with half a brain can see you are nothing but a stupid cull.
> And you found one ashless oil that's reccomended for aircooled use..bravo! All the rest are low ash, not that you even know what that means..


thats not what the order form says on their site, who is right them or you? I not on your side with this one unless they have a special wanker order form which they dont display for normal folks. it seems you cant count either stihl & ryobi have ashless synthetic oils, congratulations you have just won tool of the week award, again!


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Really? You are even less intelligent than I thought. Slick 50 user too?


im getting a good lesson at being dumbed down from the best in the business. LOL


----------



## bwalker

Like to see the email I sent them when you first spewed your bs? Hint.. you are not right..per usual..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Like to see the email I sent them when you first spewed your bs? Hint.. your not right..per usual..


it doesnt really matter if if im right or wrong, what your disputing is their website which clearly says different, but also hints that they have a special wanker portal for those who cant even count


----------



## bwalker

No we are disputing to the fact that you said you added pillars to gun stocks which already come with them..which was a total lie.


----------



## bwalker

And there website doesn't say that for the edge stock, which is what we were originally talking about. Their website says they come with pillars too..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> No we are disputing to the fact that you said you added pillars to gun stocks which already come with them..which was a total lie.


you must have had a medication change or something to become confused because i dont & never have had a mcmillan stock


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> And there website doesn't say that for the edge stock, which is what we were originally talking about. Their website says they come with pillars too..


their online pdf printable order form includes the edge stock, further in the form there are boxes that can be ticked for whether pillar blocks are required or not.
even though it s a good effort you cant win tool of the week twice in the same week. LOL
https://www.mcmillanusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/mcmillan_order_form.pdf


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> you must have had a medication change or something to become confused because i dont & never have had a mcmillan stock


That was obvious..


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> their online pdf printable order form includes the edge stock, further in the form there are boxes that can be ticked for whether pillar blocks are required or not.
> even though it s a good effort you cant win tool of the week twice in the same week. LOL


Keep looking...


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Keep looking...


im not allowed to enter the wanker portal like you are


----------



## nitehawk55

my cat's breath smells like cat food..........


----------



## big t double

nitehawk55 said:


> my cat's breath smells like cat food..........


Better than diarrhea.


----------



## singinwoodwackr

321 posts on this, LOL


----------



## NWCoaster

nitehawk55 said:


> my cat's breath smells like cat food..........


My Dogs breath smells like Cat poop.....


----------



## NWCoaster

Bwildered said:


> the stihl blurb on their synthetic ashless oil shows a clean piston after 500 hrs of use with their synthetic ashless oil against a stained piston using a non ashless oil. they cant advertise the fact if it isnt true because that would be false advertising & they would be open to be nailed by every ambulance chaser looking to make a quick buck, we need to forget every prejudice on the subject because obviously the technology has advanced & changed from something that was once not recommended, just like oil ratios.
> thansk


Some of the RC airplane sites I look at , the members report some of the cleanest engines they have ever seen when disassembled with virtually no wear. Very good results no matter what kind of new additives or lack of ash that it may contain.


----------



## hacknstack

Stihl HP Super (black bottle) is JASO-FD certified, it's on the list on the JASO website. I don't recall ever using it but I may have - anyone have experience with it?


----------



## Bwildered

NWCoaster said:


> Some of the RC airplane sites I look at , the members report some of the cleanest engines they have ever seen when disassembled with virtually no wear. Very good results no matter what kind of new additives or lack of ash that it may contain.


I'm going to give some a try, either the ryobi or stihl depending on the price, hopefully castrol will bring some out soon, so the price will be better than the gold plated name brand. like the old saying goes "cleanliness is next to godliness" it might be the only religious thing I'll ever do & count if I'm headed in that direction
thansk


----------



## Miles86

bwalker said:


> Stihl ultra is not JASO certified. Redbulls results with Ultra, that is to say pretty dirty make sense now, given its ashless.
> Echo red armour is not ashless from what I can tell and it is Jaso certified, which confirms.



BW- I really hope you can read this and actually not doubt it-
http://www.dhequipment.com/Stihl_info/WhyBuyOilScreen.pdf
(Stihl IS jaso-fb per their document)

Can you backup your claim that echo redarmor is not ashless? I guess they use an ashless component -per their msds - but it's still not ashless-OK.
BTW use whatever oil, just don't claim I'm full of it, you haven't proven anything to me yet , jack.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I went a whole weekend without using any 2 stroke oil


Me too and a Logger gave me 440's free! Think I'll get one running by mixing matching parts.


----------



## Ron660

My McMillan came with pillar bedding....standard on the HTG when I got it 5 years ago.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> Me too and a Logger gave me 440's free! Think I'll get one running by mixing matching parts.


----------



## Ron660

One had a busted tank and handle. Switched parts and came up with this one. Cylinder, piston, and rings looked good but I'll have my buddy KG461 check it out and cut squish. Still needs a few air filter parts but it was free!


----------



## cgraham1

What a stupid ****ing thread.


----------



## Ron660

cgraham1 said:


> What a stupid ****ing thread.


Like watching 3 reality shows at one time. Best thread ever.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 438180
> One had a busted tank and handle. Switched parts and came up with this one. Cylinder, piston, and rings looked good but I'll have my buddy KG461 check it out and cut squish.  Still needs a few air filter parts but it was free!


Not sure what type of oil that Logger used in this saw but the inside looked good. I'll ask him next time I see him.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> Not sure what type of oil that Logger used in this saw but the inside looked good. I'll ask him next time I see him.




There's no telling how many hours this saw has or how many trees it's cut. Got it from a Logger in Arkansas.


----------



## bwalker

Miles86 said:


> BW- I really hope you can read this and actually not doubt it-
> http://www.dhequipment.com/Stihl_info/WhyBuyOilScreen.pdf
> (Stihl IS jaso-fb per their document)
> 
> Can you backup your claim that echo redarmor is not ashless? I guess they use an ashless component -per their msds - but it's still not ashless-OK.
> BTW use whatever oil, just don't claim I'm full of it, you haven't proven anything to me yet , jack.


I did look at the link. It's a lot of marketing sizzle and not much steak.
Jaso certified oils are listed on JASO'S website. Ultra is not listed.


----------



## KG441c

Jaso certified oils will have a big square box with a letter designating the certification level. If it doesnt have the box it isnt certified or on the list! A manufacturer can say meets or exceeds any certification but if it doesnt have that square box with the letter? No cigar!!


----------



## Bwildered

NWCoaster said:


> My Dogs breath smells like Cat poop.....


maybe it would be better to dress them first. LOL


----------



## NWCoaster

Bwildered said:


> maybe it would be better to dress them first. LOL


Lol..... youre killing me.... ( Dogs love fresh " Kitty Roca")


----------



## KG441c

cgraham1 said:


> What a stupid ****ing thread.


Thats a fine saw!! Techlite bar?


----------



## NWCoaster

KG441c said:


> Thats a fine saw!! Techlite bar?


 I'm looking forward to next spring when the Cannon Light bars are supposed to come out, at least that is what I have been hearing. Wonder what sizes they will come in?


----------



## KG441c

NWCoaster said:


> I'm looking forward to next spring when the Cannon Light bars are supposed to come out, at least that is what I have been hearing. Wonder what sizes they will come in?


24,28,32,36. Not sure about any others


----------



## Ron660

NWCoaster said:


> I'm looking forward to next spring when the Cannon Light bars are supposed to come out, at least that is what I have been hearing. Wonder what sizes they will come in?


A few months ago they said before Christmas.


----------



## windthrown

Don't nock what I haven't tried? I actually have run TC-W3 and 'dual purpose' oils long ago in some saws and a blower that I no longer own. Same with running dyno and semi-synthetic oils that I have also tried. They gunked them up. I only use 100% synthetic JASO or ISO rated FC/FD oils now, and I get far better performance out of them in my 2-stroke saws, blowers and trimmers. My experience is that 100% stnthetic JASO/ISO FC/FD oils work far better than both the TC-W3 and dyno (and dyno-synthetic) blends. From a theoretical engineering perspective, there is no waiting for a verdict here and it is really quite simple.

TC-W3 is a low temperature application 2-stroke oil and is designed for using in lower revving and cooler running marine engines. The oil has to burn with the fuel mix at a lower operating temperature (below 300 deg. F.) and the oil residue has to be removed after combustion. For this reason ashless hydrazine based detergents are used in TC-W3 oils and they protect and leave no residue in low temperature marine engines. But problems develop when using ashless oils in higher temperature 2-stroke engines, and TC-W3 oils do not protect higher revving engines at higher running temperatures (upward of 400 deg. F.). For this reason low ash detergents were developed in JASO and ISO type oils to avoid the damage that resulted from using ashless TC-W3 type oils. Most low ash detergents are based on calcium and or magnesium that withstand the heat and turn to ash that is swept out after combustion. The net result is that they protect your air cooled chainsaw better than TC-W3 oils will. If you use ashless TC-W3 oil it will not meet the requirements to protect a chainsaw engine engine requiring JASO/ISO low ash type oil, and over time you will likely damage the saw engine running TC-W3 oil. For that reason no chainsaw manufacturer that I am aware of recommends any saw be run with TC-W3 oil. Actually most warn against using it.

But hey, there are guys here on AS that insist on using regular low octane ethanol E-10 gas, or high octane LL100 Avgas with lead in it in their saws. Also there are guys that insist on running only used motor and hydraulic oil for bar oil. If you want to go those or the TC-W3 routes, be my guest. But not in my saws, thankyouveddymuch. BTDT.





huskihl said:


> While I agree with you 95% of the time, I don't think this has been "proven" here, only followed as a belief. There are many loggers who get many years of service from a chainsaw engine being run exclusively on tcw3 oil. I'm not saying it's recommended, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work well. I'd be willing to bet no one here, with enough experience to know for certain, has ever burned up a chainsaw engine because of running a tcw3 oil. Real world experience says quite the opposite. Evidence is not there to call them fools.
> 
> IME, non synthetic oils seem to preserve soft rubber replaceable parts and protect carb internals better than synthetics. Case in point: my 92 husky 51. Never had the cylinder cover off. Never a carb kit. Never a fuel or impulse hose replaced. It's had minimal use the last 10 years (20 hours a year), but to me, that's testament to my belief.
> 
> My 1995 stihl ts400 concrete saw had the same experience, although I did replace the fuel hose this past winter.
> 
> I've been trying some fd rated oils lately. They do seem to run cleaner (examining the exhaust port). And I'll continue to use them unless I'm replacing rubber parts next year. I use my saws daily or weekly and there's no way in hell I'm dumping out my mix after daily use. If I add up the hourly cost of me or employees dumping out fuel every time, replacing rubber parts because they're prematurely worn out, and all the apparent hassles of the AS crowd (that I've never experienced until coming here), them I'm going back to my cheap, and apparently highly effective, tcw3 oil.
> 
> Don't knock what you obviously haven't tried.


----------



## Bwildered

The ashless oils that have been discussed lately are of a new generation, specifically designed for air cooled engines, maybe they should be scrutinised in depth some more to see how they perform.
Thansk


----------



## Gypo Logger

What's wrong with used motor oil?


windthrown said:


> Don't nock what I haven't tried? I actually have run TC-W3 and 'dual purpose' oils long ago in some saws and a blower that I no longer own. Same with running dyno and semi-synthetic oils that I have also tried. They gunked them up. I only use 100% synthetic JASO or ISO rated FC/FD oils now, and I get far better performance out of them in my 2-stroke saws, blowers and trimmers. My experience is that 100% stnthetic JASO/ISO FC/FD oils work far better than both the TC-W3 and dyno (and dyno-synthetic) blends. From a theoretical engineering perspective, there is no waiting for a verdict here and it is really quite simple.
> 
> TC-W3 is a low temperature application 2-stroke oil and is designed for using in lower revving and cooler running marine engines. The oil has to burn with the fuel mix at a lower operating temperature (below 300 deg. F.) and the oil residue has to be removed after combustion. For this reason ashless hydrazine based detergents are used in TC-W3 oils and they protect and leave no residue in low temperature marine engines. But problems develop when using ashless oils in higher temperature 2-stroke engines, and TC-W3 oils do not protect higher revving engines at higher running temperatures (upward of 400 deg. F.). For this reason low ash detergents were developed in JASO and ISO type oils to avoid the damage that resulted from using ashless TC-W3 type oils. Most low ash detergents are based on calcium and or magnesium that withstand the heat and turn to ash that is swept out after combustion. The net result is that they protect your air cooled chainsaw better than TC-W3 oils will. If you use ashless TC-W3 oil it will not meet the requirements to protect a chainsaw engine engine requiring JASO/ISO low ash type oil, and over time you will likely damage the saw engine running TC-W3 oil. For that reason no chainsaw manufacturer that I am aware of recommends any saw be run with TC-W3 oil. Actually most warn against using it.
> 
> But hey, there are guys here on AS that insist on using regular low octane ethanol E-10 gas, or high octane LL100 Avgas with lead in it in their saws. Also there are guys that insist on running only used motor and hydraulic oil for bar oil. If you want to go those or the TC-W3 routes, be my guest. But not in my saws, thankyouveddymuch. BTDT.


----------



## cgraham1

KG441c said:


> Thats a fine saw!! Techlite bar?


Yep. Thanks to Jon1212. 
I may put the 28" Techlite on my newly acquired 288xp, and the 24" Sugi on my 7900...


----------



## redbull660

had some time and beer to kill yesterday so I pulled my 661 apart...

30 tanks on it now

1-27 = H1R @ 42-45:1 with 92 oct eth free
28-29 = Motul 800 off road 40:1 with 92 oct eth free
and I've run almost a tank of Mobil 1 mx2t at 40:1 with 92 oct eth free


----------



## KG441c

Great lookin flow pattern. I loved the 661 I ran. If I found someone to trade a 661 for my MM461 Id probably trade


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Great lookin flow pattern


Quad ports rule !!!!!!!!


----------



## Trx250r180

Did you notice any difference in exhaust smell between the 3 brands ?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> The ashless oils that have been discussed lately are of a new generation, specifically designed for air cooled engines, maybe they should be scrutinised in depth some more to see how they perform.
> Thansk


And you know this how? There has been nearly zero R&D into two cycle oils as they by and large are a dieing breed. There is no new wonder ashless additive that makes ashless oils work worth a damn in a air cooled saw. OEM's have went down the ashless route before and ending up going back to low ash oils...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> had some time and beer to kill yesterday so I pulled my 661 apart...
> 
> 30 tanks on it now
> 
> 1-27 = H1R @ 42-45:1 with 92 oct eth free
> 28-29 = Motul 800 off road 40:1 with 92 oct eth free
> and I've run almost a tank of Mobil 1 mx2t at 40:1 with 92 oct eth free


Appears to be running a little fat, but not bad overall.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> And you know this how? There has been nearly zero R&D into two cycle oils as they by and large are a dieing breed. There is no new wonder ashless additive that makes ashless oils work worth a damn in a air cooled saw. OEM's have went down the ashless route before and ending up going back to low ash oils...


The same way you know stuff! Just with me its 30 years more recent! LOL . Mr stihl & mr ryobi are not in agreement with you on that one about ashless oils these days, I would tend to believe them rather than some one who hasn't even touched the stuff, or would know what R & D those companies have done to produce an new generation of ashless oil, ahh nostalgia! It isn't what it used to be!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> The same way you know stuff! Just with me its 30 years more recent! LOL . Mr stihl & mr ryobi are not in agreement with you on that one about ashless oils these days, I would tend to believe them rather than some one who hasn't even touched the stuff, or would know what R & D those companies have done to produce an new generation of ashless oil, ahh nostalgia! It isn't what it used to be!


Typical response from a moron..not that I didn't expect it.
And ashless chemistry isn't anything new... it's 30 year old tech. Low ash chemistry is state of the art as it pertains to aircooled two-cycle oils..


----------



## Mr. E

bwalker said:


> Typical response from a moron..not that I didn't expect it.
> And ashless chemistry isn't anything new... it's 30 year old tech. Low ash chemistry is state of the art as it pertains to aircooled two-cycle oils..


Remember 30 years ago, before the internet, when no one cared what oil you ran?


They still don't.


----------



## sunfish

Mr. E said:


> Remember 30 years ago, before the internet, when no one cared what oil you ran?
> 
> 
> They still don't.


Best post so far!


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## bwalker

Mr. E said:


> Remember 30 years ago, before the internet, when no one cared what oil you ran?
> 
> 
> They still don't.


The Internet existed in the late 70's and probably earlier. 20 years ago the use net newsgroups were in full swing and oil was a point of contention back then.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Typical response from a moron..not that I didn't expect it.
> And ashless chemistry isn't anything new... it's 30 year old tech. Low ash chemistry is state of the art as it pertains to aircooled two-cycle oils..


Your projecting again, how about proving your hot air claims instead of coming across like a F wit, explain to us how & why the latest synthetic ashless oils produced by stihl & ryobi for air cooled 2t engines are defective & are going to be detrimental for the performance, operation & life of equipment it is used in. Especially against the independent reports coming back in of how good they are.


----------



## bwalker

2 out of hundreds and your clinging to that? Like I said, you are a moron...
As for the reports. Look up redbulls pics of engines ran on ultra in this thread..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> 2 out of hundreds and your clinging to that? Like I said, you are a moron...
> As for the reports. Look up redbulls pics of engines ran on ultra in this thread..


keep going you abusing & bulling people that don't agree with you or present a logical counter argument, it just reinforces who & what you really aren't much of, needing to resort to that kind of behaviour, it doesn't really bother me what someone wants to call me to get their jollies or because they have no social skills, just don't ever call me late for dinner.
So redbull has been using stihl ultra ashless that you never knew existed until a week or so ago, now where can this retrospective BS story go from here i wonder? just think of it, now he could think about engaging a ambulance chaser to pursue the manufacturer for fraudulent claims about a product that doesn't perform as claimed. Or you could attempt a class action if you had any buddies, which isn't very likely . LOL


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> keep going you abusing & bulling people that don't agree with you or present a logical counter argument, it just reinforces who & what you really aren't much of, needing to resort to that kind of behaviour, it doesn't really bother me what someone wants to call me to get their jollies or because they have no social skills, just don't ever call me late for dinner.
> So redbull has been using stihl ultra ashless that you never knew existed until a week or so ago, now where can this retrospective BS story go from here i wonder? just think of it, now he could think about engaging a ambulance chaser to pursue the manufacturer for fraudulent claims about a product that doesn't perform as claimed. Or you could attempt a class action if you had any buddies, which isn't very likely . LOL


Logical? Hardly.
I used Ultra that I got for a free with a saw years ago. I never researched it much.
The rest of your rant is rich and merits no response.


----------



## snoozeys

Do you lot ever stop fighting

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


----------



## redbull660

Has anyone been able to find the MSDS for honda hp2?

This is the only one I could find. It's from oct 2009.

Visc @100c = 17.6
flash point = 228F


http://products.petrochoice.com/sys...ynthetic_20Racing_20Oil_20Case.pdf?1436283423


*edit - joined that site kenjax mentioned and downloaded the 2012 msds - see attached to this post.*




Trx250r180 said:


> Did you notice any difference in exhaust smell between the 3 brands ?



mobil 1 seems to have the least smell.
motul isn't bad
h1r kinda smells good to me lol


----------



## KenJax Tree

There is a site you gotta join for the HP2 MSDS, forgot what it was[emoji52]


----------



## KenJax Tree

Sign up for a free trial and you can see the MSDS.
https://www.msdsonline.com/sign-up/...m=msdsonline&gclid=CITUgfetkscCFYiPHwoduPUAGw


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i have returned to burning echo/shindaiwa red armor oil at 50:1 i forget how clean burning this oil really is.
COMPONENTS 
Polybutene 
Proprietary ester 
Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated
light
Highly-refined petroleum lubricant
oils
Hydrocarbyl amine Proprietary Polymer 
alkyl imidazoline Proprietary 
Alkarylamine 
Solvent naphtha, petroleum,


----------



## nitehawk55

Redbull , do you plan on running the Motul 800 more ? , 2 tanks isn't really going to give a result .
I've got a jug mixed but am waiting to get out and help a fellow when he gets to clearing and bucking in a few weeks . I'll run the Motul in one saw and my usual Saber mix in my other .
Saber will be at my usual 40:1 and the 800 at 45:1 since it's a stouter mix .


----------



## redbull660

yeah I ran it in another 661 quite a bit more but didn't have time to take that one apart. 

Re: motul 800 off road

I like it a lot. 

- very similar formulation to ultra but better quality. ie. all ester syn and additive package. very simple. like h1r & ultra

- seems to burn/run very very clean, While I got the sense that h1r burned somewhat brown. I didn't see anything when I took the saw apart...infact it looked really really good. If there was a problem, I would imagine something would of been starting after 27 tanks...and I seriously doubt 2 tanks of 800 could erase any problems that h1r caused.

- that said I don't care for how finicky h1r is with the oil ratios. It's super slow at 32:1 ok at 40-42:1 and good at 45-50:1. From what I can tell the temp outside and how hot you are running the saw requires an adjustment in the ratio to maintain max performance. Sooo the fact that motul 800 could be run at 32:1 and only be 1 sec slower than 45:1 is pretty nice. Hence I simply split the difference and I've been running 800 at 40:1. 

- but that doesn't rule out that h1r couldn't be run at a higher ratio and give the same protection. Regardless of what the visc numbers say it's a very thick oil. And for 27 tanks it was run at 42-45:1...mostly 45:1. Insides look great. 

- 800 is good in ultra cold down to -54 or heat, h1r is as well at -46F

- I do like the high viscosity number on 800. Makes me feel warm in cozy as far as protection goes. But I don't have any doubts about H1R's ability to protect at 45:1. At least in a stock saw. The honda hp2 looks interesting with a viscosity at 17.6. 

I'd like to run a ported saw for the test and Brad said he would port my saw, but has since backed out of the offer. Because the saw couldn't be dyno'd before and after. I don't see how that concerns the test but whatever...get what u pay for. 

Cost wise I don't really care. I'm running a approx $1300 setup and difference between $20 quart oil and $11 quart is about .85 cents more paid per gallon mixed up. extra .85cents per gal may make a difference to a serious logging operation. But not me.

- also like that mdavelee had a lot of success milling with 800. 
- 800 doesn't smell much either.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> I'd like to run a ported saw for the test and Brad said he would port my saw, but has since backed out of the offer. Because the saw couldn't be dyno'd before and after. I don't see how that concerns the test but whatever...get what u pay for..



Brad backed out because you don't know how to run or load the saw properly for timed cuts, which is why Brad wanted the saw ran on a dyno. I would have backed out myself. I'm not trying to knock you down, just stating the obvious.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad backed out because you don't know how to run or load the saw properly for timed cuts, which is why Brad wanted the saw ran on a dyno. I would have backed out myself. I'm not trying to knock you down, just stating the obvious.



Guess he didn't have the balls to tell me that. oh well. His loss, not mine.



I've done more videoed tests then anyone on here. My tests are apples to apples...and very methodical in approach. No one else on here uses brand new chains for each new test to ensure that things are fair. My times are consistent and repeatable.

and he is one to judge my testing? his cutting of some little half rotten log with mere 4 second times to determine what muffler worked the best on his ported 661....please.


----------



## KenJax Tree

This thread has a pulse again[emoji1]


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> This thread has a pulse again[emoji1]


CLANK CLANK.....CLANK CLANK


----------



## snoozeys

I was just looking at prices of different oils and i thought motul was pricey but stihl oil is insane .. i use husqvarna oil by the way !!

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yeah I ran it in another 661 quite a bit more but didn't have time to take that one apart.
> 
> Re: motul 800 off road
> 
> I like it a lot.
> 
> - very similar formulation to ultra but better quality. ie. all ester syn and additive package. very simple. like h1r & ultra
> 
> - seems to burn/run very very clean, While I got the sense that h1r burned somewhat brown. I didn't see anything when I took the saw apart...infact it looked really really good. If there was a problem, I would imagine something would of been starting after 27 tanks...and I seriously doubt 2 tanks of 800 could erase any problems that h1r caused.
> 
> - that said I don't care for how finicky h1r is with the oil ratios. It's super slow at 32:1 ok at 40-42:1 and good at 45-50:1. From what I can tell the temp outside and how hot you are running the saw requires an adjustment in the ratio to maintain max performance. Sooo the fact that motul 800 could be run at 32:1 and only be 1 sec slower than 45:1 is pretty nice. Hence I simply split the difference and I've been running 800 at 40:1.
> 
> - but that doesn't rule out that h1r couldn't be run at a higher ratio and give the same protection. Regardless of what the visc numbers say it's a very thick oil. And for 27 tanks it was run at 42-45:1...mostly 45:1. Insides look great.
> 
> - 800 is good in ultra cold down to -54 or heat, h1r is as well at -46F
> 
> - I do like the high viscosity number on 800. Makes me feel warm in cozy as far as protection goes. But I don't have any doubts about H1R's ability to protect at 45:1. At least in a stock saw. The honda hp2 looks interesting with a viscosity at 17.6.
> 
> I'd like to run a ported saw for the test and Brad said he would port my saw, but has since backed out of the offer. Because the saw couldn't be dyno'd before and after. I don't see how that concerns the test but whatever...get what u pay for.
> 
> Cost wise I don't really care. I'm running a approx $1300 setup and difference between $20 quart oil and $11 quart is about .85 cents more paid per gallon mixed up. extra .85cents per gal may make a difference to a serious logging operation. But not me.
> 
> - also like that mdavelee had a lot of success milling with 800.
> - 800 doesn't smell much either.


I think it would be a mistake to say 800 is like ultra or H1R.
In regards to your motul times at 32 and 45:1. If my memory is correct the times were essentially a dead heat?


----------



## redbull660

why would you say it's a mistake to say 800 is like ultra or h1r? 

they are all around 80-90% ester + 10-20% additive package. Nothing else going on with them as far as the ingredients per the MSDS's. 


800 - 32:1 was approx 1-1.5 sec slower than 800 45:1. That said H1R 32:1 was *7 seconds *slower than H1R 50:1.


----------



## bwalker

The esters are different, as your testing has shown. Kinda like saying well water, distilled water and sea water are all the same because they contain water.
Care to repost the times as I can't find them now?


----------



## redbull660

I don't have em anymore. I just remember the difference.

45:1 h1r was same as 45:1 800. 32:1 800 was slower by 1 or 1.5 sec than 45:1 800.

Another interesting thing was when i ran 45:1 800 vs 45:1 h1r it was a colder day. 45:1 800 sounded good.

But when I did the test between 32:1 800 and 45:1 800 on a entirely different day when it was HOT like 95F out...45:1 was faster by the 1.-1.5 sec but didn't sound as good as 32:1. AND didn't sound as good as 45:1 800 did on the colder day. 

POINT - I'd almost have to suspect that at least with the mtronics the outside temp affects the oil ratio. Obviously you could tune around that with regular adjustable carb. That said I went to 40:1 on the 800 and have been running that.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I don't have em anymore. I just remember the difference.
> 
> 45:1 h1r was same as 45:1 800. 32:1 800 was slower by 1 or 1.5 sec than 45:1 800.
> 
> Another interesting thing was when i ran 45:1 800 vs 45:1 h1r it was a colder day. 45:1 800 sounded good.
> 
> But when I did the test between 32:1 800 and 45:1 800 on a entirely different day when it was HOT like 95F out...45:1 was faster by the 1.-1.5 sec but didn't sound as good as 32:1. AND didn't sound as good as 45:1 800 did on the colder day. POINT - I'd almost have to suspect that at least with the mtronics the outside temp affects the oil ratio. Obviously you could tune around that with regular adjustable carb. That said I went to 40:1 on the 800 and have been running that.


I would say Mtronic isn't corrceting precisely. Still better than leaving carb tuning up to the average wood tick though. It's air to fuel ratio differance that are causing the things you noticed, not oil, at least as it pertains to 800.
Really I would call the results at 32 and 45 with 800 within the margin of error and essentially identical.
Not supprised on the results with H1R at all. I suspect neither are you.


----------



## redbull660

only thing it could be on the H1R is that I didn't do the "reset" for each ratio change like I did with all the other oils etc.

So the very first thing I'll test in the oil test will be H1R to see if the reset makes a difference. If it doesn't then I'm thinking I won't do the reset at all , because it's a very time consuming thing to do. ie. you gotta do at least 5 cuts with it before it relearns or whatever you want to call it. And I've seen that process first hand many times now and it does relearn...it's really weird. You can feel it get faster with each of the 5 cuts after reset is performed.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I wonder where HP2 fits into all this


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> I wonder where HP2 fits into all this




i dunno man. I'd like to test some of that stuff. I've got everything except for that! 

Always had good luck with honda stuff. They make good stuff. Plus it has that super high visc. Wood be interesting for sure!


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I'd like to run a ported saw for the test and Brad said he would port my saw, but has since backed out of the offer. Because the saw couldn't be dyno'd before and after. I don't see how that concerns the test but whatever...get what u pay for.


Seriously? I didn't back out of anything. I agreed to port your saw *if* you would have it dynoed before and after. *You're* not able to make that happen. I didn't back out of a thing. You've pretty much proven my assumptions with this little act.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Guess he didn't have the balls to tell me that. oh well. His loss, not mine.
> 
> 
> 
> I've done more videoed tests then anyone on here. My tests are apples to apples...and very methodical in approach. No one else on here uses brand new chains for each new test to ensure that things are fair. My times are consistent and repeatable.
> 
> and he is one to judge my testing? his cutting of some little half rotten log with mere 4 second times to determine what muffler worked the best on his ported 661....please.


Wow! And who's the one that's been begging for a free port job? Real class act you are. Andre is exactly right. And I have told you, just not so bluntly, lol. Trust me, I will never port a saw for you, not even for double the price.


----------



## redbull660

the dyno thing totally your idea. chad and you are buddy buddy. yet u want me to set it up which was weird. then he backs out. so you back out.

but i don't see how the dyno test, has anything to do with getting the saw ported for the oil test. i mean chit you can send him a saw any time you want. the main thing was to get the saw ported for this oil test. that is what we all want to see is the oil test done with ported saw. why the dyno keeps that from happening is ...whatever.


and for your 2nd msg. I didn't beg you. it started out as your idea and from there it's been all over the map.


----------



## blsnelling

Do you really want to spell it out for you? 

First of all, Chad and I have no more connection that you and he do. He's dynoed ONE saw for me. 

Yes, I wanted YOU to set it up. That's what I asked of YOU. YOU have it dynoed, not me. 

And BTW, Chad didn't back out of a thing either. When asked if he would do it, he kindly declined as he doesn't have the time to do it right now. 

You're right, the dyno test has nothing to do with your oil test...exactly my point. I have no confidence in your cut times at all. The dyno runs were simply so that there would be something in this for me to give you a free port job. Have you no self respect?


----------



## blsnelling

BTW, I've tried to help you along the way, both publically in your threads and in PM. What a childish little temper tantrum you've thrown here, all because you didn't get that free port job you've been begging for.


----------



## huskihl

I think 1212 calls that "douchebaggery


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> Do you really want to spell it out for you?
> 
> First of all, Chad and I have no more connection that you and he do. He's dynoed ONE saw for me.
> 
> Yes, I wanted YOU to set it up. That's what I asked of YOU. YOU have it dynoed, not me.
> 
> And BTW, Chad didn't back out of a thing either. When asked if he would do it, he kindly declined as he doesn't have the time to do it right now.
> 
> You're right, the dyno test has nothing to do with your oil test...exactly my point. I have no confidence in your cut times at all. The dyno runs were simply so that there would be something in this for me to give you a free port job. Have you no self respect?





blsnelling said:


> BTW, I've tried to help you along the way, both publically in your threads and in PM. What a childish little temper tantrum you've thrown here, all because you didn't get that free port job you've been begging for.



yup, ya got me nailed. and you have commended my testing many times in the past. Now it's a 180 to support your douchebag back out move.

I don't need to beg for a port job. I've been laying out *TONS* of money left and right testing stuff. as in thousands $$$$ Your just too cheap to contribute anything to this test. It's not the idea of the cost of the port job. It's you contributing your time towards this. ...since the ported saw tested was YOUR idea from the start. Wouldn't of cost you a dime.

Maybe what 8hrs of your time? By the time I'm done with this test I'll have at least 10x that. Your just cheap dude.


----------



## blsnelling

Goodnight RedBull.


----------



## NWCoaster




----------



## Andyshine77

Let's all guess RedBull"s age. I'm thinking 12.


----------



## Effs

Andyshine77 said:


> Let's all guess RedBull"s age. I'm thinking 12.


The real aholes here aren't the one who started this thread!


----------



## MontanaTed

not sure what that little guy is but think it represents the last couple of pages pretty well. The 323 prior to were pretty good from what I read. Thanks for the information.


----------



## Andyshine77

Effs said:


> The real aholes here aren't the one who started this thread!



Very mature language. Kids these days.


----------



## Justsaws

So everybody gonna run Lucas? Sweet.



Got distracted but want to add this....

Theoretical phone call between OEM and blender.......

Blender -Ring, ring, hello?

OEM--Good mortning, I need a new oil to market what do you have?

Blender--We got it all. What is the product line the oil is intended for?

OEM--Air cooled 2 cycle equipment, blah, blah, blah

Blender--Yea, we do that, you want it to be your own exclusive product.

OEM--Ya, only ours, must be distinct.

Blender--Okay, we can do that. We got these bases and various additives tweak the known formulas a bit and you got your exclusive product. No problem. 

OEM--Ya, guut send us some samples.

Blender--Sure thing, anything specific you want done to the product, you know make it your ultra product in anyway.

OEM--No, no just a good basic..........hmmm, wait a minute............, anyway you could make it smell like a burning credit card?

Blender--Yeah sure no problem, might leave a glossy hard residue on the top of the piston over time.

OEM--Eh, huh sure just as long as it smells like a burning credit card. 

Blender--Okay, send the sample drums out tomorrow. Have a good day.

OEM--Ya dank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is how I think oil gets blended.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yup, ya got me nailed. and you have commended my testing many times in the past. Now it's a 180 to support your douchebag back out move.
> 
> I don't need to beg for a port job. I've been laying out *TONS* of money left and right testing stuff. as in thousands $$$$ Your just too cheap to contribute anything to this test. It's not the idea of the cost of the port job. It's you contributing your time towards this. ...since the ported saw tested was YOUR idea from the start. Wouldn't of cost you a dime.
> 
> Maybe what 8hrs of your time? By the time I'm done with this test I'll have at least 10x that. Your just cheap dude.


I really don't see the value in testing a ported saw.
Although not bullet proof, think just testing the saws on a dyno woukd be a much better approach the using a human operator. That's with the caveat that the dyno and operator are top notch.


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> I really don't see the value in testing a ported saw.
> Although not bullet proof, think just testing the saws on a dyno woukd be a much better approach the using a human operator. That's with the caveat that the dyno and operator are top notch.


 Like the ones Stihl has at Long Beach??


----------



## bwalker

NWCoaster said:


> Like the ones Stihl has at Long Beach??


I am not sure what Stihl has at LB.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> I am not sure what Stihl has at LB.



Stihl VB has some of the best equipment available . If anyone ever gets a chance , take a tour of the facility .


----------



## NWCoaster

bwalker said:


> I am not sure what Stihl has at LB.


There are a bunch of vids online showing their test cells/ dynomometers running. All computer controlled and whatnot.... i would imagine they are super accurate for doing short and long term testing for wear and performance. Pretty high tech stuff. ( Note, I meant Virginia Beach, sorry bout that)


----------



## sunfish

Mr. E said:


> Remember 30 years ago, before the internet, when no one cared what oil you ran?
> 
> 
> They still don't.


I like the new guy.


----------



## Pud

I wonter what stihl would say if we asked if we could test every motorcyle oil ever made at every ratio possible in a ported saw on there dyno coz H1r isnt cool anymore and neither is chainsaw oil !!


----------



## mdavlee

Pud said:


> I wonter what stihl would say if we asked if we could test every motorcyle oil ever made at every ratio possible in a ported saw on there dyno coz H1r isnt cool anymore and neither is chainsaw oil !!


They probably have done it already


----------



## redbull660

They would most likely reply - Verpiss dich


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> They probably have done it already


Doubtful they give a shat.


----------



## NWCoaster

sunfish said:


> I like the new guy.


New guy or repackaged old guy.... seems a little too familiar with the personalities......hmmmmm.....


----------



## HuskStihl

I'm just happy to have learned I'm gonna shave 7 seconds off this time by ditching h1r


----------



## sunfish

Justsaws said:


> So everybody gonna run Lucas? Sweet.


Works here...


----------



## KG441c

Been using r50 @ 32to1 in a 390xp, 461r,241c, and a 460 hybrid. No issues and all saws run like tops


----------



## mdavlee

This 372 piston doesn't look bad. A little red oil in it.


----------



## Moparmyway

I mixxed up some H1R today. 
100:1 



























Going to see how my twin cylinder 4 cycle lawn tractor carb internals and valves like it


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> This 372 piston doesn't look bad. A little red oil in it.
> 
> View attachment 441060


Thats r50?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Thats r50?


Red armor


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Red armor


Who makes it?


----------



## KenJax Tree




----------



## KenJax Tree

How ya been Keith? I don't see you around much lately


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> This 372 piston doesn't look bad. A little red oil in it.
> 
> View attachment 441060


Tuning appears to be a little rich but pretty decent given your probaly milling with it. Not overly impressed with the heavy crusty appearance of the carbon on the crown. It appears simular to what I have seen with Klotz R50.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Tuning appears to be a little rich but pretty decent given your probaly milling with it. Not overly impressed with the heavy crusty appearance of the carbon on the crown. It appears simular to what I have seen with Klotz R50.


It's not mine. I just thought to take a picture of it while it was apart.


----------



## HuskStihl

Echo saws suck donkey balls. Except the 590 timberwolf. That beast is right up there with a 362 C-M. I'm hoping red armpit is the 590 timberwolf of echo oil, and not the donkey ball sucking kind


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> How ya been Keith? I don't see you around much lately


Alota work and family time. Thanks


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Not overly impressed with the heavy crusty appearance of the carbon on the crown. It appears simular to what I have seen with Klotz R50.



I ran R50 in many engines including autotune ones ..................... NEVER did I see anything even remotely close to what you claim. You must have been running stool water for fuel to have the results you say


----------



## Trx250r180

You guys are missing out on the ace hardware oil ,the string trimmer ran pretty good off it ,maybe these thicker dirtbike oils are making too much piston drag decreasing horsepower ,someone should test this ace stuff


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I ran R50 in many engines including autotune ones ..................... NEVER did I see anything even remotely close to what you claim. You must have been running stool water for fuel to have the results you say


Premium pump.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Premium pump.


Call it whatever you wish ................... your stool water caused that, not the R50


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Call it whatever you wish ................... your stool water caused that, not the R50


And you know this how? R50 consistently caused hard, crusty dark carbon on piston crowns. And I have used and seen it used in a variety of motors. Supertechniplate is about the same, except it really gums up exhaust pipes and powervalves if you don't have high load conditions.
I never use crappy fuel, ever. FWIW I still use Supertechniplate when dune riding.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> And you know this how?



From running R50 in my stuff and from rebuilding top ends of dirtbikes that used it.
I have seen R50 actually clean up dirty pistons.
I have even posted a few pictures of the pistons in the past ...........................

If you are having problems tuning your equipment, PM me and I will be happy to help you


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> From running R50 in my stuff and from rebuilding top ends of dirtbikes that used it.
> I have seen R50 actually clean up dirty pistons.
> I have even posted a few pictures of the pistons in the past ...........................
> 
> If you are having problems tuning your equipment, PM me and I will be happy to help you


You need to turn your H screw about 1/4 turn clockwise by the looks of your muffler pics


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> You need to turn your H screw about 1/4 turn clockwise by the looks of your muffler pics


     

I allways hit the kill switch @ WOT unloaded, after idling to cool down.
Leaves the mufflers wet and keeps the "polite" mud daubers I have here away, and dries up after the first or second cut.


----------



## redbull660

Down visiting with Scott Kunz (Tree Monkey). This is the stuff he likes to use. Scott is a pretty smart dude, so adding it to the test list. Says he only uses this stuff and mixes at 32:1. Performs great. Plus he sells it for about $8 a qt.


----------



## dave53223

redbull660 said:


> Down visiting with Scott Kunz (Tree Monkey). This is the stuff he likes to use. Scott is a pretty smart dude, so adding it to the test list. Says he only uses this stuff and mixes at 32:1. Performs great. Plus he sells it for about $8 a qt.


Now we got the right oil.That is what i use.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Im sure its good oil but i wouldn't use marine oil. The label even says not to use it. Each to their own i guess.


----------



## wigglesworth

Bel-ray FTW!!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

supertech is better.


----------



## weimedog

Still a Bel-Ray fan.. but happy with Husqvarna XP synthetic so far.


----------



## wigglesworth

jakewells said:


> supertech is better.



Probably so. Lol


----------



## KG441c

Dont let anyone tell you oil doesnt make a difference! Just finished working on an echo srm-225 that wouldnt rev but to about 1/4 throttle so I assumed carb first and cleaned. No go! Pulled muffler and bingo! The exhaust port is suppose to be about the size of a dime and it was so plugged with carbon it was maybe the size of a pencil!! Cleaned and bingo! Dont have any idea what sorta oil the customer used though


----------



## mdavlee

Mr arm wouldn't run full throttle on h1r. K2 it's fine.


----------



## shorthunter

KenJax Tree said:


> Im sure its good oil but i wouldn't use marine oil. The label even says not to use it. Each to their own i guess.



Where does the label say, "Do not use this in chainsaws"?

Does your owners manual specify JASO or API TC?


----------



## Deets066

shorthunter said:


> Where does the label say, "Do not use this in chainsaws"?
> 
> Does your owners manual specify JASO or API TC?


It says on the the back label that it's an injector oil and to be used in water cooled engines. 
It also says that it shouldn't be used in rotary power valve engines or air cooled engines.


----------



## the_old_curmudgeon

From the 550XP owner's manual (page 18)


_

Never use two-stroke oil intended for water-cooled

engines, sometimes referred to as outboard oil (rated

TCW).

•
Never use oil intended for four-stroke engines._

The 372XP owners manual 11/2014 edition has the same wording, it also adds these lines:

_Mixing ratio
1:50 (2%) with HUSQVARNA two-stroke oil.
1:33 (3%) with oils class JASO FB or ISO EGB formulated 
for air-cooled, two-stroke engines._


----------



## redbull660

Given Tree Moneky/Scott said he had ran over 1000 gallons of the stuff through his saws. I threw caution to the wind and ran 3 tanks of schaeffers through my 661 yesterday. Smell is probably the least of all the oils I've tried so far. Saw seemed to really like the stuff. I thought it ran really really well. I'm going to run it some more. It's for sure going to be tested against the others.

- I also dropped off my other 661 with scott to get ported for the oil test. So the oil test will be done with a ported 661. 

- I decided on doing the test with .404 Stihl RS chains. ...I think the 661 has so much torque that you need to exert more than normal pressure on the bar to get it's max potential out of 3/8ths RS. While the bigger teeth on the .404 offers enough bite for the torque of the 661...so it's normal pressure/self feeding - more consistent...especially a ported 661.

- thinking probably a 28, 30 or 32" bar. I will get the biggest logs I can and noodle the sides off so the tip is exposed and it'll make for long cuts. 

- long cuts will be good to show temps and time differences...if any.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Down visiting with Scott Kunz (Tree Monkey). This is the stuff he likes to use. Scott is a pretty smart dude, so adding it to the test list. Says he only uses this stuff and mixes at 32:1. Performs great. Plus he sells it for about $8 a qt.


Its a boat oil.


----------



## hardpan

mdavlee said:


> Mr arm wouldn't run full throttle on h1r. K2 it's fine.



I also switched from H1R to K2 with better results/performance/starting. I don't do cookies or production but my saws, trimmer, and blower like it. I didn't choose it because it is the best (we will never know) but because after reading this entire thread I don't recall any negative comments on K2, 32:1.


----------



## bwalker

hardpan said:


> I also switched from H1R to K2 with better results/performance/starting. I don't do cookies or production but my saws, trimmer, and blower like it. I didn't choose it because it is the best (we will never know) but because after reading this entire thread I don't recall any negative comments on K2, 32:1.


Have been very happy with K2 and have burned alot of it this year. The only problem is its ridiculously expensive IMO.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Its a boat oil.



I've been running Mobil 1 mx2t for a while now at 32:1 40:1 and 45:1 

I thought the saw ran better on Schaeffers 32:1 than Mobil 1 at any of the above ratios. Don't know what to tell ya. 

I'd say it ran better than 800 and H1R but it's been a while since I've used those. Can't wait to do the oil test!!!


----------



## hardpan

bwalker said:


> Have been very happy with K2 and have burned alot of it this year. The only problem is its ridiculously expensive IMO.



I fully understand that price is a concern for production or high volume users. I am neither and yes it is near the top in the cost category.


----------



## porsche965

Whoever started the fad back when on H1R @ 32:1 anyway?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I've been running Mobil 1 mx2t for a while now at 32:1 40:1 and 45:1
> 
> I thought the saw ran better on Schaeffers 32:1 than Mobil 1 at any of the above ratios. Don't know what to tell ya.
> 
> I'd say it ran better than 800 and H1R but it's been a while since I've used those. Can't wait to do the oil test!!!


"Ran better" is pretty subjective. Personally once a specific fuel/oil mix is tuned to the engine I haven't seen much differance in any of them, accept H1R. Everything I have tried ran well, except the above mentioned.
What I care about is long term deposit control and wear. Two items which go hand in hand.


----------



## KG441c

I ran H1R for awhile with no issues at 32:1.


----------



## KG441c

The H1R did have a transparent brown looking film it left behind though and I didnt care for that


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Whoever started the fad back when on H1R @ 32:1 anyway?


I left for a few years and when I return everyone was running that crap...


----------



## bwalker

hardpan said:


> I fully understand that price is a concern for production or high volume users. I am neither and yes it is near the top in the cost category.


If I was just using it in saws I wouldn't worry about it, but I am also running it in bikes where you can easily go thought 10 or more gallons a weekend.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I ran H1R for awhile with no issues at 32:1.


Issues with oil typically are cumlative and occur over time, which is one thing this test can't determine. H1R will tune weird right off the bat. At least it has for me.


----------



## KG441c

I always noticed that transparent brown coating from the top ring around top edge of piston and on the top


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> If I was just using it in saws I wouldn't worry about it, but I am also running it in bikes where you can easily go thought 10 or more gallons a weekend.


I ran yamalube r2 and Honda hp2 in all my 2 stroke race bikes with no issues


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I ran yamalube r2 and Honda hp2 in all my 2 stroke race bikes with no issues


Both are great oils, I just found the smell of HP2 nasty.


----------



## bwalker

The other thing is with strato engines being more problem running quality oil is more important that ever. They use much less oil and the pistons run very hot.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Both are great oils, I just found the smell of HP2 nasty.


I've been using HP2 for a while now and don't really notice the smell. It does stink in the bottle but when its burning i don't really notice it much.

Different smellers for different feller i suppose[emoji1]


----------



## KG441c

Hadnt seen many oils that I ran that wouldn't be useable but whatever was ran in that echo 225 I cleaned completely almost closed off the exhaust port


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I've been using HP2 for a while now and don't really notice the smell. It does stink in the bottle but when its burning i don't really notice it much.
> 
> Different smellers for different feller i suppose[emoji1]


The formulation could have been change too. I haven't smelt it in awhile.


----------



## huskihl

redbull660 said:


> Given Tree Moneky/Scott said he had ran over 1000 gallons of the stuff through his saws. I threw caution to the wind and ran 3 tanks of schaeffers through my 661 yesterday. Smell is probably the least of all the oils I've tried so far. Saw seemed to really like the stuff. I thought it ran really really well. I'm going to run it some more. It's for sure going to be tested against the others.
> 
> - I also dropped off my other 661 with scott to get ported for the oil test. So the oil test will be done with a ported 661.
> 
> - I decided on doing the test with .404 Stihl RS chains. ...I think the 661 has so much torque that you need to exert more than normal pressure on the bar to get it's max potential out of 3/8ths RS. While the bigger teeth on the .404 offers enough bite for the torque of the 661...so it's normal pressure/self feeding - more consistent...especially a ported 661.
> 
> - thinking probably a 28, 30 or 32" bar. I will get the biggest logs I can and noodle the sides off so the tip is exposed and it'll make for long cuts.
> 
> - long cuts will be good to show temps and time differences...if any.


I wouldn't fear too much about using it. Here's a pic of an original 1988 jred 625 p&c. Rode hard and put away wet for 20 years. It was run on whatever was cheapest. For the last 7 years that happened to be supertech. There is some carbon on the exhaust port. The rings wore out before the carbon scored anything. The piston crown is just black with no buildup


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Hadnt seen many oils that I ran that wouldn't be useable but whatever was ran in that echo 225 I cleaned completely almost closed off the exhaust port


That was a common thing years ago. I had a Yamaha Tri-Zinger three wheeler when I was around 6 years old. A few years ago I pulled it out of my dad's garage and got it running. It seemed sluggish so I pulled the pipe only to find the exhaust port was nearly completely blocked.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I wouldn't fear too much about using it. Here's a pic of an original 1988 jred 625 p&c. Rode hard and put away wet for 20 years. It was run on whatever was cheapest. For the last 7 years that happened to be supertech. There is some carbon on the exhaust port. The rings wore out before the carbon scored anything. The piston crown is just black with no buildupView attachment 446964


How many cord did it cut a year on average?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> That was a common thing years ago. I had a Yamaha Tri-Zinger three wheeler when I was around 6 years old. A few years ago I pulled it out of my dad's garage and got it running. It seemed sluggish so I pulled the pipe only to find the exhaust port was nearly completely blocked.


Cant imagine many oils today would do that but then again this 225 trimmer may have been ran at low rpm too much?


----------



## TBrown

redbull660 said:


> I've been running Mobil 1 mx2t for a while now at 32:1 40:1 and 45:1
> 
> I thought the saw ran better on Schaeffers 32:1 than Mobil 1 at any of the above ratios. Don't know what to tell ya.
> 
> I'd say it ran better than 800 and H1R but it's been a while since I've used those. Can't wait to do the oil test!!!


I have been using the schaeffers at 32:1 based on Scott's direction since he ported my 361. I like it since it burns clean and doesn't make me feel sick.


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> How many cord did it cut a year on average?


It was my dad's. Used for lot clearing in an excavating business. Probably a couple hundred hours a year


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> How many cord did it cut a year on average?


I'm not promoting sh!t oils. I think there are too many variables such as cutting style, ethanol in the fuel, ect... to make any blanket statements about which oil is used. I believe more focus should be on tuning and making sure it has oil in it at all


----------



## huskihl

I'm on my last quart of fd rated full synthetic quicksilver. No noticeable smell. Then I'm on to some lucas. My concrete saw hates amsoil. It's got a 10,000 rpm coil in it and nearly impossible to tune. It's going back on the boat oil diet next year and then I'll know if it's the carb or synthetic that it doesn't like.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> It was my dad's. Used for lot clearing in an excavating business. Probably a couple hundred hours a year


I just tore down a Redmax blower with more time on it and the rings were fine. You can find cheap aircooled oil too. No sense in using something the mfg doesn't reccomend.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I'm not promoting sh!t oils. I think there are too many variables such as cutting style, ethanol in the fuel, ect... to make any blanket statements about which oil is used. I believe more focus should be on tuning and making sure it has oil in it at all


Tuning is importnat as is making sure your air filter.is services on a regular basis.
But so is running the correct type of oil.


----------



## bwalker

huskihl said:


> I'm on my last quart of fd rated full synthetic quicksilver. No noticeable smell. Then I'm on to some lucas. My concrete saw hates amsoil. It's got a 10,000 rpm coil in it and nearly impossible to tune. It's going back on the boat oil diet next year and then I'll know if it's the carb or synthetic that it doesn't like.


Never had a engine not like an oil. Have had some cause tuning issues, which could be easily fixed with a screw driver.


----------



## huskihl

bwalker said:


> Never had a engine not like an oil. Have had some cause tuning issues, which could be easily fixed with a screw driver.


Yea me either. My chainsaws all run fine on this stuff. Might also be the limited coil on the concrete saw. It doesn't give the normal signs of rich or lean. Weird


----------



## nitehawk55

I'm sticking with my Amsoil Saber and Motul 800 off road , they both run clean at 40:1 and the saws seem to run well too plus I see a nice light film of oil on the piston which is what I want . I don't want any excess , it doesn't help wear nor performance .

There is no way I would run any TCW3 rated oil , it's not formulated for ail cooled so why run it when you have so many choices of proper rated oils out there ?


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> I'm sticking with my Amsoil Saber and Motul 800 off road , they both run clean at 40:1 and the saws seem to run well too plus I see a nice light film of oil on the piston which is what I want . I don't want any excess , it doesn't help wear nor performance .
> 
> There is no way I would run any TCW3 rated oil , it's not formulated for ail cooled so why run it when you have so many choices of proper rated oils out there ?


Exactly! There are many good air cooled oils out there ranging in price from cheap to expensive.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Exactly! There are many good air cooled oils out there ranging in price from cheap to expensive.


And there are some great oils on the cheaper end.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> And there are some great oils on the cheaper end.


This stuff is pretty damn good for under $10 a quart..


----------



## Trx250r180

I have noticed some of the dirt bike oils slow the power of my hopped up saws ,


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I have noticed some of the dirt bike oils slow the power of my hopped up saws ,


I have not noticed that at all and not from like of trying, except with H1R. If an engines running characteristics change with a change in premix it's almost always a tuning issue and not the oil.
Or its all in your head. We have all heard the "I ran "X" oil" in my saw/truck/boat and it feels likes it's making more power and is crisper,idles better,etc. Placebo effect IMO and IME.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have not noticed that at all and not from like of trying, except with H1R. If an engines running characteristics change with a change in premix it's almost always a tuning issue and not the oil.
> Or its all in your head. We have all heard the "I ran "X" oil" in my saw/truck/boat and it feels likes it's making more power and is crisper,idles better,etc. Placebo effect IMO and IME.


How big of saws are you running ? in my small ones i do not notice anything ,just my really hopped up ones ,dumonde tech has made the crispest power so far at 32 to 1 ,i can get decent results with yamalube ,i am running .404 with a 32 inch bar on a 440 hybrid with 230 psi or 660 saw so i can feel the load difference cutting ,with a smaller bar and 3/8 i do not notice much difference like you are saying ,my weedeater i can tell even more in power loss between oils ,it does not idle as good at 32 to 1 vs 50 to 1


----------



## bwalker

My biggest saw currently is a 372xpg.


----------



## bwalker

Typically the bigger the motor the less sensitive they are.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I have noticed some of the dirt bike oils slow the power of my hopped up saws ,


 You prefer Dumonde in your 660?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> You prefer Dumonde in your 660?


It seems to burn clean with crisp throttle response but is expensive for saw use


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> It seems to burn clean with crisp throttle response but is expensive for saw use


 If it's worth it I'll try it along with my 800 off-road. My wife is expensive too but she's worth it. I don't mind paying for quality.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Mr arm wouldn't run full throttle on h1r. K2 it's fine.


 Mike, what's your top three oils as of now?


----------



## Andyshine77

TBrown said:


> I have been using the schaeffers at 32:1 based on Scott's direction since he ported my 361. I like it since it burns clean and doesn't make me feel sick.


And people ran H1R because Mastermind said so, even though others including myself expressed our concerns about the tuning/running issues. The schaeffer oil isn't going to blow up an engine, but it's not the proper product to use in this application, and it says so right on the bottle. 

Y'all are still running around like chickens with your heads cut off. Carry on.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> And people ran H1R because Mastermind said so, even though others including myself expressed our concerns about the tuning/running issues. The schaeffer oil isn't going to blow up an engine, but it's not the proper product to use in this application, and it says so right on the bottle.
> 
> Y'all are still running around like chickens with your heads cut off. Carry on.


That about says it all.


----------



## Ron660

Andyshine77 said:


> And people ran H1R because Mastermind said so, even though others including myself expressed our concerns about the tuning/running issues. The schaeffer oil isn't going to blow up an engine, but it's not the proper product to use in this application, and it says so right on the bottle.
> 
> Y'all are still running around like chickens with your heads cut off. Carry on.


 The best I remember some of that decision was based on an airplane 2-cycle small engine test conducted with several oils and H1R was the winner.


----------



## porsche965

But this is chainsaws.....


----------



## KenJax Tree

Airplanes engines way different than ***.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Andyshine77 said:


> And people ran H1R because Mastermind said so, even though others including myself expressed our concerns about the tuning/running issues. The schaeffer oil isn't going to blow up an engine, but it's not the proper product to use in this application, and it says so right on the bottle.
> 
> Y'all are still running around like chickens with your heads cut off. Carry on.


Follow the Pied Piper[emoji1]


----------



## jl4c

KenJax Tree said:


> Follow the Pied Piper[emoji1]



But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. --Matt 11:16-17


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> The best I remember some of that decision was based on an airplane 2-cycle small engine test conducted with several oils and H1R was the winner.


H1R did terrible in that test too.
Airplanes are more like boat engines in the way they are operated. IE long periods of high load, high throttle.


----------



## porsche965

But lower rpms.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> But lower rpms.


The 582 Rotax turns about 7000 rpms and the last Yamaha 60 I had ran about 5600 IIRC.


----------



## porsche965

Is there any other two stroke engine application that turns north of 13,000 rpms like chainsaws?


----------



## bwalker

125 and smaller dirtbike motors, kt 100 kart engines to name a few.
The differance is they turn that rpm under load where a chainsaw doesn't pull that in the cut.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> Mike, what's your top three oils as of now?


K2, R50, Mobil while I have it.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> K2, R50, Mobil while I have it.


Hard to beat that R50. Mike what do u like about the k2?


----------



## Moparmyway

porsche965 said:


> Is there any other two stroke engine application that turns north of 13,000 rpms like chainsaws?


North of 13k under load ?



bwalker said:


> 125 and smaller dirtbike motors, kt 100 kart engines to name a few.
> The differance is they turn that rpm under load where a chainsaw doesn't pull that in the cut.


My 066 and my 661 pull over 12k in the cut with .404 and a 7 tooth sprocket


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Hard to beat that R50, what do u like about the k2?


K2 doesnt make me sick after running it all day ................ I find that I am gulping for fresh air after running R50 for any extended length

I love how R50 runs and how it looks inside ................. but the smell definately gets to me


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> K2 doesnt make me sick after running it all day ................ I find that I am gulping for fresh air after running R50 for any extended length
> 
> I love how R50 runs and how it looks inside ................. but the smell definately gets to me


Hadnt noticed the smell much at all but all of it chokes me if I get cornered with it. Cant be good to smell any of it though


----------



## KenJax Tree

Flush cutting a stump i think any oil is enough to kill you with the exhaust blowing right in your face.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Flush cutting a stump i think any oil is enough to kill you with the exhaust blowing right in your face.


Ya and its hard to get your back to the wind sometimes. I do remember H1R being alil more irratating than others and being the reason I stopped using it. 800t didnt bother me much but Ive heard others mention it does but I think it has alot to do with wind direction and avaliable space where you are cutting or it all chokes me


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> North of 13k under load ?
> 
> 
> My 066 and my 661 pull over 12k in the cut with .404 and a 7 tooth sprocket


Stock motors? What size wood?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> K2 doesnt make me sick after running it all day ................ I find that I am gulping for fresh air after running R50 for any extended length
> 
> I love how R50 runs and how it looks inside ................. but the smell definately gets to me


K2 is good stuff, just wish the cost was a bit more sane. However, if I was running it in just saws the cost wouldn't bother me as much.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Stock motors? What size wood?


661 just has a muffler mod and runs a Max Flow air filter
066 ported by Mike Lee and running Max Flow

All sizes of wood. I cut lots of stumps ..................... but running 36" .404 7 tooth setups

I have seen a 24" DBH tree have over a 50" wide base, so its tough to answer directly.
Its not like blooms are consistant in size, but they are definately consistant in being tough.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> 661 just has a muffler mod and runs a Max Flow air filter
> 066 ported by Mike Lee and running Max Flow
> 
> All sizes of wood. I cut lots of stumps ..................... but running 36" .404 7 tooth setups
> 
> I have seen a 24" DBH tree have over a 50" wide base, so its tough to answer directly.
> Its not like blooms are consistant in size, but they are definately consistant in being tough.


I am supprised at this numbers given the substantial wood. I would have that they would have been lower.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I am supprised at this numbers given the substantial wood. I would have that they would have been lower.


Me too, but the Hardlines dont lie


----------



## mdavlee

I tached some saws yesterday milling. They were pulling 8-11k in the wood. 394 with muffler mod and a ported 880.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> I tached some saws yesterday milling. They were pulling 8-11k in the wood. 394 with muffler mod and a ported 880.


That's been more in line with what I have seen,.although admit ingle I have only tached a few saws in the wood.


----------



## mdavlee

There were a couple around 11.5-12k


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> - I decided on doing the test with .404 Stihl RS chains. ...I think the 661 has so much torque that you need to exert more than normal pressure on the bar to get it's max potential out of 3/8ths RS. While the bigger teeth on the .404 offers enough bite for the torque of the 661...so it's normal pressure/self feeding - more consistent...especially a ported 661.


3/8 is entirely adequate to put a proper load on any saw, even a ported 880 or 3120.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I tached some saws yesterday milling. They were pulling 8-11k in the wood. 394 with muffler mod and a ported 880.[/Q





blsnelling said:


> 3/8 is entirely adequate to put a proper load on any saw, even a ported 880 or 3120.


Brad did I hear u say one time that with magnum spikes on a saw such as a ported 390 or 660 that u could stall the biggers saws when pulled hard enough on the spikes?


----------



## blsnelling

You can stall a ported 880 or 3120 *without* the dawgs.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> You can stall a ported 880 or 3120 *without* the dawgs.


That was my thoughts but just makin sure. Thanks


----------



## Moparmyway

blsnelling said:


> 3/8 is entirely adequate to put a proper load on any saw, even a ported 880 or 3120.


Hi Brad,
I have to lump in with redbull on this one.
My 661 likes .375 no doubt, but there is a rather large difference in how it runs 3/8 compared to .404

With .375, I was allways leaning on the saw
with .404 I usually just hold the trigger and laugh


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> That was my thoughts but just makin sure. Thanks


It's all in the chain and the operator, and 33 or 36 RS is plenty aggressive right out of the box. It's up to the operator to be able to feel and listen to his saw and operate it accordingly.


----------



## KG441c

Id like to try 404 on my 390 with a 24 b/c for noodling


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> 1. do you have a .404 bar for a 661?
> 2. have you ran .404 on 661?
> 
> I've personally ran .404 and 3/8ths RS, RSLF, RM and customized RS half skip on 20", 24", 28", 30", 32" 36" and 41". On the 661.
> 
> I'd rather not have to apply pressure that is required with 3/8ths on a 661. I'd rather use the .404 wish is pretty much self feeding and more consistent than trying to apply pressure on a 3/8ths chain.
> 
> What you are saying is incorrect and that's just the bottom line. I doubt you've even run 404 on a 661. You have to press on 3/8ths to get it to cut as fast as .404. ...on the 661.
> 
> 3/8 RSLF requires the most pressure
> 3/8 RS H next
> 3/8 RS next
> 3/8 RM the least pressure required to get it to cut fast and right.


So Redbull the 404 self feeds better than 3/8?


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> It's all in the chain and the operator, and 33 or 36 RS is plenty aggressive right out of the box. It's up to the operator to be able to feel and listen to his saw and operate it accordingly.




1. do you have a .404 bar for a 661?
2. have you ran .404 on 661?

I've personally ran .404 and 3/8ths RS, RSLF, RM and customized RS half skip on 20", 24", 28", 30", 32" 36" and 41". On the 661.

I'd rather not have to apply pressure that is required with 3/8ths on a 661. I'd rather use the .404 wish is pretty much self feeding and more consistent than trying to equally apply the pressure required on a 3/8ths chain during the test.

What you are saying is incorrect and that's just the bottom line. I doubt you've even run 404 on a 661. You have to press on 3/8ths to get it to cut as fast as .404. ...on the 661.

on 661...

3/8 RSLF requires the most pressure
3/8 RS H next
3/8 RS next
3/8 RM the least pressure required to get it to cut fast and right.




KG441c said:


> Id like to try 404 on my 390 with a 24 b/c for noodling



404 RSLF is the noodling king on a torque saw IMHO of course.



KG441c said:


> So Redbull the 404 self feeds better than 3/8?



oh for sure. on a 661 anyway.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> 1. do you have a .404 bar for a 661?
> 2. have you ran .404 on 661?
> 
> I've personally ran .404 and 3/8ths RS, RSLF, RM and customized RS half skip on 20", 24", 28", 30", 32" 36" and 41". On the 661.
> 
> I'd rather not have to apply pressure that is required with 3/8ths on a 661. I'd rather use the .404 wish is pretty much self feeding and more consistent than trying to equally apply the pressure required on a 3/8ths chain during the test.
> 
> What you are saying is incorrect and that's just the bottom line. I doubt you've even run 404 on a 661. You have to press on 3/8ths to get it to cut as fast as .404. ...on the 661.
> 
> on 661...
> 
> 3/8 RSLF requires the most pressure
> 3/8 RS H next
> 3/8 RS next
> 3/8 RM the least pressure required to get it to cut fast and right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 404 RSLF is the noodling king on a torque saw  IMHO of course.
> 
> 
> 
> oh for sure. on a 661 anyway.


Ive only ran 1 stock 661 with a 32 tsumura bar with RS but I was totally impressed


----------



## mdavlee

I still prefer a 395 over 661. I'd love to put one on a mill and see how it would do. That may sway me towards getting one


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I still prefer a 395 over 661. I'd love to put one on a mill and see how it would do. That may sway me towards getting one


Never had my paws on a 395. How does it compare to a 660 and a 390 Mike?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Never had my paws on a 395. How does it compare to a 660 and a 390 Mike?


Stronger and heavier.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Stronger and heavier.


Oh ok. Id assume u like the 395 for milling over an 880 or a 3120? 395 is alil on the heavy side for firewood say in the 20 to 30" range? You would pick up something alil smaller? Im really liking my Hybrid in wood from about 15 to 25 and anything smaller I pick up the 241c and anything bigger I get the 390 out


----------



## mdavlee

Yeah they work great for up to a 42" bar. I mostly use a 70cc with a 28". Been playing a lot with the 50cc stuff lately.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Yeah they work great for up to a 42" bar. I mostly use a 70cc with a 28". Been playing a lot with the 50cc stuff lately.


I wouldnt mind a Dolmar 7910


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> I wouldnt mind a Dolmar 7910


Yeah. Those are about my favorite all the way to 90cc


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Yeah. Those are about my favorite all the way to 90cc


Firewood cutting 20" to 25" wood. PORTED Hybrid 440/460, 7910, 390, or 660?


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> Yeah. Those are about my favorite all the way to 90cc


How's the solo 681 compare?


----------



## Trx250r180

.404 full skip square is what i am running on the hybrids ,running full comp .404 ground at 10 degrees for milling ,i do not get why people say .404 is too much unless you have an 880 size saw ,works fine on my saws if it is sharp ,it may add a little weight to the bar ,but i have not noticed a whole lot ,the wider spaced drive links oil better on my saws also ,a 32 inch bar 3/8 has 105 dl ,where the .404 has 91 or 92 ,i have to count again ,on the same 32 inch bar .


----------



## bwalker

I have never seen a piece of .404 chain in my life. It just isn't used locally.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I have never seen a piece of .404 chain in my life. It just isn't used locally.



There ............. now you cant say that anymore


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I am supprised at this numbers given the substantial wood. I would have that they would have been lower.


Forgot one last, but very important piece of info .................. running square filed chain


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have never seen a piece of .404 chain in my life. It just isn't used locally.


it has a slightly taller cutter ,and a little wider kerf ,looks like this  ,this is round ,the skip i have is square ,i convert the round to square on the grinder


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Forgot one last, but very important piece of info .................. running square filed chain


I have used square chain once. I had poor results hand filing it and gave up. It is not used locally either.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have used square chain once. I had poor results hand filing it and gave up. It is not used locally either.


If done properly ,it is like adding 10cc's to your saw for power ,it is also much smoother ,not as hooked as a round profile ,so not grabby .

3/8 off the grinder ,(yes moparmyway ,i know the gullets are not cleaned out )


----------



## KenJax Tree

For my use square isn't worth the time, so semi chisel for me[emoji20]


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> How's the solo 681 compare?


Its a touch stronger.


----------



## porsche965

In chainsaw racing what chains do they use?


----------



## mdavlee

Square chisel.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> it has a slightly taller cutter ,and a little wider kerf ,looks like this  ,this is round ,the skip i have is square ,i convert the round to square on the grinder


I know where you got those !!
My pile from the same guy looked very similar when I got them ......I think I got about 20........ now they are all on nails. The 36" loops took forever to square file


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> If done properly ,it is like adding 10cc's to your saw for power ,it is also much smoother ,not as hooked as a round profile ,so not grabby .
> 
> 3/8 off the grinder ,(yes moparmyway ,i know the gullets are not cleaned out )
> View attachment 447394


I found that square is pretty smooth in hardwoods, but also dulls much faster than round.
Probaly great stuff for cutting softwoods.
Speaking of softwoods. I snapped these pics of an old growth eastern white cedar and a old growth white pine. The cedar was close to 36"dbh and the white pine was quite a bit bigger.


----------



## mdavlee

I get longer life out of square than round. We milled with a 37" skip square yesterday on a 394. Jason had bought some R50 and it was smelling good around that wood pile with that and the VP fuel Rodney had.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I found that square is pretty smooth in hardwoods, but also dulls much faster than round.
> Probaly great stuff for cutting softwoods.


I cut hardwoods; red oak, hickory, even locus ............... square lasts me longer than round filed


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I cut hardwoods; red oak, hickory, even locus ............... square lasts me longer than round filed


Interesting, maybe my filing was such that I had a fragile edge. I know using a goofy style file is a frustrating endeavor.


----------



## Trx250r180

here is some second growth cedar out behind my house ,old growth around here is 6-8 feet across ,that is a 32 inch bar for reference .,seems like the 4-5 footers always have rot in them when fall them ,so lose 8 feet or so of first log 
Had to rip the bottom one down the middle to move it with the skid loader ,got a lot of nice trim boards out of the rotten log still ,was all clear tight grain no knots


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Interesting, maybe my filing was such that I had a fragile edge. I know using a goofy style file is a frustrating endeavor.


Do you use 3/8 in .050 with anything ?
How many DL's ?


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Interesting, maybe my filing was such that I had a fragile edge. I know using a goofy style file is a frustrating endeavor.


goofy is not true square ,gives a curved side plate ,the .404 holds the edge longer than 3/8 ,must be the wider kerf ,here are some files i piked up for Mike at my saw local saw shop ,6 sided ,these work pretty good


----------



## Moparmyway

Get them double bevel square files while you can .............. last week, I FINALLY got the 12 Save Edge double bevel files that I ordered LAST YEAR !


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> For my use square isn't worth the time, so semi chisel for me[emoji20]


Semi is great in them not-so clean situations .............. especially ant ridden center rot trees. They usually hold lots of black dirt and sand that loves to dull down sharpened full chisel. I have swapped to semi more times this year than I have in past years. Once I am through the ugly stuff, the square goes back on though.


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> In chainsaw racing what chains do they use?





mdavlee said:


> Square chisel.


3/8 .050 on most, except in bike saws, which I believe run .404.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> H1R did terrible in that test too.
> Airplanes are more like boat engines in the way they are operated. IE long periods of high load, high throttle.


Not the results I read. Best I remember H1R burned the cleanest compared to the others. 
I've never used H1R. I've used Belray mc1+ many years ago in my CR dirt bike. 
I've used mostly 800 off-road in my saws and willing to try something else.


----------



## Moparmyway

IMHO, try K2 .................. it is a frontrunner for sure !!
PM me your address and I will send you the rest of my H1R


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Hadnt noticed the smell much at all but all of it chokes me if I get cornered with it. Cant be good to smell any of it though


Its not just choking me ............ it actually makes me feel sick after a while
Doesnt happen with any other oil either, just R50


----------



## mdavlee

Somebody yesterday said they almost felt sick from all the fumes. 

K2 and Mobil are the least offensive for milling.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I found that square is pretty smooth in hardwoods, but also dulls much faster than round.
> Probaly great stuff for cutting softwoods.
> Speaking of softwoods. I snapped these pics of an old growth eastern white cedar and a old growth white pine. The cedar was close to 36"dbh and the white pine was quite a bit bigger.View attachment 447400
> View attachment 447401


Just the opposite results from my experience. Square cuts faster and stays sharp a lot longer.


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> Get them double bevel square files while you can .............. last week, I FINALLY got the 12 Save Edge double bevel files that I ordered LAST YEAR !


I haven't had any problems getting them. Madsens always has some in stock. I haven't bought save edge in 3 years now.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> goofy is not true square ,gives a curved side plate ,the .404 holds the edge longer than 3/8 ,must be the wider kerf ,here are some files i piked up for Mike at my saw local saw shop ,6 sided ,these work pretty goodView attachment 447404
> View attachment 447406
> View attachment 447407
> View attachment 447408


That's the same brand I use. Good ones.


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> 3/8 .050 on most, except in bike saws, which I believe run .404.


Some run .058". 1/2" on some bike saws. .404" .080" harvester bars are run as well.


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> IMHO, try K2 .................. it is a frontrunner for sure !!
> PM me your address and I will send you the rest of my H1R


Redbull might want to give it another try not me.


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> There ............. now you cant say that anymore


Think I might try 404 on my 660. Probably a 28" Cannon.


----------



## Ron660

Ron660 said:


> That's the same brand I use. Good ones.


 They occasionally ship me some from Portugal. Ever seen those?


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> That was my thoughts but just makin sure. Thanks


Keith, if your saws are bogging I'll let you borrow my MM660. You'll finish faster with time for a cold one.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> Think I might try 404 on my 660. Probably a 28" Cannon.


You can use a reg bar if .063 and change to a .404 tip and drive sprocket .i have converted 3 bars over now .


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Keith, if you're saws are bogging I'll let you borrow my MM660. You'll finish faster with time for a cold one.


Lol!! I may have a MM390 that will probably make you drain the gas out of that 660 and put it on the tradin post!! Lol!!


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> here is some second growth cedar out behind my house ,old growth around here is 6-8 feet across ,that is a 32 inch bar for reference .,seems like the 4-5 footers always have rot in them when fall them ,so lose 8 feet or so of first log
> Had to rip the bottom one down the middle to move it with the skid loader ,got a lot of nice trim boards out of the rotten log still ,was all clear tight grain no knots View attachment 447402
> View attachment 447403


The old growth here is almost always unsound for the first 6 feet, especially hemlock. Our trees are also much shorter than yours.
Our growing season is so short you rarely ever find old growth over 4'. The old growth I have seen is mostly all in a private old money club up here, called the Huron Mountain Club.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Do you use 3/8 in .050 with anything ?
> How many DL's ?


I run 16" and 24" 3/8 .050, every thing else is 3/8 .058.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Not the results I read. Best I remember H1R burned the cleanest compared to the others.
> I've never used H1R. I've used Belray mc1+ many years ago in my CR dirt bike.
> I've used mostly 800 off-road in my saws and willing to try something else.


Was the test you are referring to the one that also noted that H1R required a large tuning change?


----------



## redbull660

here are my 3/8 vs 404 tests

I think 404 RS is a little much for a stock 661. It's rough in the cut..BUT it depends on the wood type. Ported saw I'm sure would be way better. Time wise it's right there with 3/8ths most of the time...depends on the wood....sometimes it's faster even.

I think 404 RSLF is freakin awesome at any length on a stock 661. It's smooth and it's right there.

These are all new chains in the tests...the thing these tests don't show is what happens after you've been cutting for a tank or two? I would bet money the .404 stuff is doing better on speed because it's stays sharp longer.

vids if you wanna watch -







gotta figure out the 36 v 41". That's still in pieces...need to edit together.

36" tsumura 3/8ths RS 45.0 1:01.9


36"tsumura 404 RS first time using at this length ...stuck, then in 2nd cut I let it self feed 1:01.7 so .2 sec faster than 3/8ths lol


36" tsumura 3/8 RSLF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1eZnGoOQ9Q

36" tsumura 404 RSLF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pxEidP7Zj0


----------



## CR888

404 tends to get faster as the cutters are worn back and get thinner. Off the loop .404 has lots of meat to drag throught the wood, but its all good, speed is is only one factor when choosing best chain.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Lol!! I may have a MM390 that will probably make you drain the gas out of that 660 and put it on the tradin post!! Lol!!


LOL...I wouldn't argue with that. That's why I'm getting a 390xp if I can ever get if off lay-a-way. Too many family expenses (two girls in college and one in Jr. high). I wish my Grandpaw, deceased now, could have tried my ported 660. I think he used a Homelite during his Logging days....cross-cut saw originally.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> LOL...I wouldn't argue with that. That's why I'm getting a 390xp if I can ever get if off lay-a-way. Too many family expenses (two girls in college and one in Jr. high). I wish my Grandpaw, deceased now, could have tried my ported 660. I think he used a Homelite in during his Logging days....cross-cut saw originally.


I bet they would too. They were workhorses in their time though.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Was the test you are referring to the one that also noted that H1R required a large tuning change?


It could have been....not sure. I went from using Stihl 2-cycle oil to Redmax and a few other "chainsaw" oils. I've only been using 800 off-road lately but I might try the other oils AS members have recommended like Mobil and K2. I doubt my limited amount of saw-time will ever make a difference though. I don't use a saw professionally like you and other AS members. I do appreciate the knowledge and input though.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I run 16" and 24" 3/8 .050


Its up to you, but I am willing to square file a new chain for you.
If you dont want a new one, I have about a dozen used 84DL chains hanging on a nail ........ all square filed, cleaned gullets, and rakers set.
Run it and let me know how you like it, then its yours to keep.
You can send it back for the first re-filing free of charge (except shipping of course) ................

Just PM me any address that you want it sent to


----------



## Jimbo209

mdavlee said:


> I get longer life out of square than round. We milled with a 37" skip square yesterday on a 394. Jason had bought some R50 and it was smelling good around that wood pile with that and the VP fuel Rodney had.




So I should try the 36" 3/8 RSLF on the green wood next time I get some(was saving it for cookie cutting wile still square),
And I'll do a video rslh in hard wood just cause  or keep it for some pine I have lined up down here
Been using A3EP gradually taking it to 10 deg, now it there finally got some good results,

Also I'm using 32:1 @98ron turned down a bit for the mill


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> goofy is not true square ,gives a curved side plate ,the .404 holds the edge longer than 3/8 ,must be the wider kerf ,here are some files i piked up for Mike at my saw local saw shop ,6 sided ,these work pretty goodView attachment 447404
> View attachment 447406
> View attachment 447407
> View attachment 447408


----------



## mdavlee

The ones on the right if they're double bevel profile are great.


----------



## KG441c

Mike which do u like better the Vallorbe or the Bahco?


----------



## KG441c

I see the cuts on thoso files are different? Ones straight and ones on an angle?


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> The ones on the right if they're double bevel profile are great.


It is. They work well but I'm still practicing my angles.
I only cut hardwood and it's mostly red oak (occasional water and willow oak) and hickory.


----------



## mdavlee

I like the straight across


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> I like the straight across


seems like the strait across work good for final grooming ,the angled are more agressive


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> seems like the strait across work good for final grooming ,the angled are more agressive


I get longer life on the straight across. The others I chip the corner on the side to file left hand cutters.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> seems like the strait across work good for final grooming ,the angled are more agressive


The angled file did seem to sharpen my Stihl square chisel faster. My Oregon square chisel chains seem easier to sharpen compared to the Stihl chains. I'm currently using full skip square chisel on my 660 but wanting to try some semi-chisel. Most of the oak wood I cut is green not dry. It's a lot easier to split with my maul too.


----------



## Ron660

Most of the Loggers in my neck-of-the-woods use full comp round. It's rare to see a Logger in my area using square chisel......most have never heard of it. They mostly cut softwood like pine and occasionally hardwood. Hardwood prices have recently increased.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> The angled file did seem to sharpen my Stihl square chisel faster. My Oregon square chisel chains seem easier to sharpen compared to the Stihl chains. I'm currently using full skip square chisel on my 660 but wanting to try some semi-chisel. Most of the oak wood I cut is green not dry. It's a lot easier to split with my maul too.


oregon is much easier to sharpen than stihl ,i am glad i have a grinder ,lol


----------



## redbull660

I don't want to hear I told you so, because no one here has posted this in 335 pages. 

Anyway...

One reason to run more oil (in many cases), would be to get more additives into the engine.

hypothetical bottle of "xyz" oil (the make up/formulation)
80% oil 
10% solvents
*10% additives - corrosion inhibitors, anti wear, anti seize, friction reducer, detergents, anti smoke...stuff like that.*
----
100%

Say you dump in a typical 4oz of xyz in...

so 3.2oz = oil, .4oz = solvents, .4oz = additives. 

4oz - 32:1= 1.00 gal 
4oz - 40:1 = 1.25 gal *so @ 40:1 you've diluted/stretched your .40z of additives by 25% over 32:1*
4oz - 50:1 = 1.56 gal *and @ 50:1 you've diluted/stretched your .4oz of additives by 56%. over 32:1*


I did say in most cases. Additive packages are all over the map...ie. how much of which and quality of which that make up that typical 10%. 

Stihl ultra additives are specific to saws. (saws only?) They say you can run 50:1. So their additive package probably good enough at 50:1. 

However, many of these other oils aren't geared towards saws. So running extra oil and thus extra additives (vs stihl ultra) = probably a good thing. Unless you know the make up of the oil and that the additive package is super strong and thus could be run at 50:1. oils that come to mind for that would be ultra, 800, h1r, and maybe amsoil since they shout 100:1 all the time.


I'm not suggesting anything here. I do think I am presenting something that hasn't been presented here before. Personally I'll error on the side of caution as additives are very important.


----------



## blsnelling




----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I don't want to hear I told you so, because no one here has posted this in 335 pages.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> One reason to run more oil (in many cases), would be to get more additives into the engine.
> 
> hypothetical bottle of "xyz" oil (the make up/formulation)
> 80% oil
> 10% solvents
> *10% additives - corrosion inhibitors, anti wear, anti seize, friction reducer, detergents, anti smoke...stuff like that.*
> ----
> 100%
> 
> Say you dump in a typical 4oz of xyz in...
> 
> so 3.2oz = oil, .4oz = solvents, .4oz = additives.
> 
> 4oz - 32:1= 1.00 gal
> 4oz - 40:1 = 1.25 gal *so @ 40:1 you've diluted/stretched your .40z of additives by 25% over 32:1*
> 4oz - 50:1 = 1.56 gal *and @ 50:1 you've diluted/stretched your .4oz of additives by 56%. over 32:1*
> 
> 
> I did say in most cases. Additive packages are all over the map...ie. how much of which and quality of which that make up that typical 10%.
> 
> Stihl ultra additives are specific to saws. (saws only?) They say you can run 50:1. So their additive package probably good enough at 50:1.
> 
> However, many of these other oils aren't geared towards saws. So running extra oil and thus extra additives (vs stihl ultra) = probably a good thing. Unless you know the make up of the oil and that the additive package is super strong and thus could be run at 50:1. oils that come to mind for that would be ultra, 800, h1r, and maybe amsoil since they shout 100:1 all the time.
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting anything here. I do think I am presenting something that hasn't been presented here before. Personally I'll error on the side of caution as additives are very important.


Two cycle oil typically doesn't have very many additives. Usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases. The anti seizure properties are determined by how much bright or PIB is added or by the molecular weight of the base oil in the case of most ester oils.
OEM oils many times do have a fuel stabilizer in addition to the above.


----------



## blsnelling

@redbull660 What are some of these additives and what oils have them?


----------



## bwalker

Oil ratio is mostly dictated by rpms and load, which are what determines oil migration time through a motor.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i would have no fear in running 50:1 in any of this oil covered additive package or dilution be dam***
i ran that mix for years before i entered this forum with out a hiccup.


----------



## Jimbo209

In What ambient temperature, is this discussion/testing 
I know I could be cutting from 10-15c just finishing in winter here(6c is a cold morning for me) all the way to 40-45c+ in summer


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I burned a 1.25 gallons of K2 at 40:1 this morning between a OE 365 with a 372 jug and a 201 T c-m.

It changed my life.

I got 64oz for free.


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I burned a 1.25 gallons of K2 at 40:1 this morning between a OE 365 with a 372 jug and a 201 T c-m.
> 
> It changed my life.
> 
> I got 64oz for free.


How did it smell ?


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I burned a 1.25 gallons of K2 at 40:1 this morning between a OE 365 with a 372 jug and a 201 T c-m.
> 
> It changed my life.
> 
> I got 64oz for free.


how do you like the 201tc-m?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> How did it smell ?



Incredible and awesome.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> how do you like the 201tc-m?



I like it , good throttle response.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

welcome to the dark side enjoy your K2 now try some 927.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

jakewells said:


> welcome to the dark side enjoy your K2 now try some 927.



Im really not that into it my dude.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

okay then try some ultra and report the serious nature of the smell.


----------



## KenJax Tree

[emoji1]


----------



## Trx250r180

My daily driver pickup was ticking so i put a gallon of hydrolic oil in it ,and it is still in there a week later ,still has good pressure ,no ticks ,i did not have any engine oil at the house so i ran what i had .Was that ,bar oil ,or 2 stroke mix .


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Two cycle oil typically doesn't have very many additives. Usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases. The anti seizure properties are determined by how much bright or PIB is added or by the molecular weight of the base oil in the case of most ester oils.
> OEM oils many times do have a fuel stabilizer in addition to the above.



"usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases" Ya know...I think YOUshould provide some examples...some proof to back up your position.

Here are mine -

http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
Formula K2 is a very high performance 100% synthetic 2-cycle lubricant utilizing 2000 centistoke esters along with *special additives to achieve outstanding levels of protection and cleanliness. Friction and wear, ring sticking and exhaust tract (power valve) carbon are virtually eliminated. Also provides higher levels of rust & corrosion protection.*

--------------------------------------------------
https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/TECH/KL-104-Tech-Sheet.pdf
R50 -

anti scuff - "techniplate lubricity system for superior film strength and anti scuff " system isn't just oil there is an additive
anti wear - "extreme load carrying capacity to eliminate bearing and ring wear
detergency - clean burn technology reduces carbon residue build up
corrosion inhibitors - anti oxidation protection against rust and corrosion
another one that would pertain to power valves - "power valve formula


----------------------------------------------
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...ine-off-road--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21

Motul 800 -
"by selecting esters over other high performance synthetic base stocks and combining them with an *innovative additive package*..."

innovative and package being the key words. Pretty sure they aren't using just 1 or 2 additives.
-----------------------------------------------

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/oilhpultra/

Stihl Ultra -

"outstanding engine cleaning characteristic"
"plus “ultra” lubricating qualities that are superior to other 2-cycle engine oils"
http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf 0-20% listed as additives. I'm guessing it's not all detergents because it sure burns dirty. Point there is well more than 1 or 2 additives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...ssional-synthetic-2-stroke-oil/?code=ATPPK-EA

amsoil saber - all kinds of talk about additives.
-----------------------------------------------

and the legendary Mobil 1 mx2t... see pic attached.
additives...
anti seize -
anti scuff-
"Formulated with premium additives and synthetic fluids to protect against exhaust port blocking" ok so now there are just additives and there are PREMIUM additives...so there is a difference in quality.

--------------------------------------------------------
and best of all your beloved yamalube 2r...

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

"performance additive MIXTURE" = 16-20% of the ENTIRE volume of the bottle! So 16-20% of the whole bottle of 2r is additives!
---------------------------------------------------------

I know I know, your right and I'm wrong and none of this makes a difference. Tell ya what though...1/5th of the yamalube is additives. I'm guessing since it takes up 1/5th of the bottle that it's pretty important stuff.

Ok well I'm off to wax my saws!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> "usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases" Ya know...I think YOUshould provide some examples...some proof to back up your position.
> 
> Here are mine -
> 
> http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
> Formula K2 is a very high performance 100% synthetic 2-cycle lubricant utilizing 2000 centistoke esters along with *special additives to achieve outstanding levels of protection and cleanliness. Friction and wear, ring sticking and exhaust tract (power valve) carbon are virtually eliminated. Also provides higher levels of rust & corrosion protection.*
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/TECH/KL-104-Tech-Sheet.pdf
> R50 -
> 
> anti scuff - "techniplate lubricity system for superior film strength and anti scuff " system isn't just oil there is an additive
> anti wear - "extreme load carrying capacity to eliminate bearing and ring wear
> detergency - clean burn technology reduces carbon residue build up
> corrosion inhibitors - anti oxidation protection against rust and corrosion
> another one that would pertain to power valves - "power valve formula
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...ine-off-road--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21
> 
> Motul 800 -
> "by selecting esters over other high performance synthetic base stocks and combining them with an *innovative additive package*..."
> 
> innovative and package being the key words. Pretty sure they aren't using just 1 or 2 additives.
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/oilhpultra/
> 
> Stihl Ultra -
> 
> "outstanding engine cleaning characteristic"
> "plus “ultra” lubricating qualities that are superior to other 2-cycle engine oils"
> http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf 0-20% listed as additives. I'm guessing it's not all detergents because it sure burns dirty. Point there is well more than 1 or 2 additives.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...ssional-synthetic-2-stroke-oil/?code=ATPPK-EA
> 
> amsoil saber - all kinds of talk about additives.
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> and the legendary Mobil 1 mx2t... see pic attached.
> additives...
> anti seize -
> anti scuff-
> "Formulated with premium additives and synthetic fluids to protect against exhaust port blocking" ok so now there are just additives and there are PREMIUM additives...so there is a difference in quality.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> and best of all your beloved yamalube 2r...
> 
> https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf
> 
> "performance additive MIXTURE" = 16-20% of the ENTIRE volume of the bottle! So 16-20% of the whole bottle of 2r is additives!
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I know I know, your right and I'm wrong and none of this makes a difference. Tell ya what though...1/5th of the yamalube is additives. I'm guessing since it takes up 1/5th of the bottle that it's pretty important stuff.
> 
> Ok well I'm off to WAX my saws!


I posted some virgin oil analysis early in this thread, which backup what I am telling you.


Performance additives can contain PIB and the like as its pretty vague. 
Like myself and others said along time ago msds are for shipping and storage and not much else.
No need for the tone in the last part of this post. Unless you seek to turn this thread back to negative.


----------



## redbull660

by the way I emailed Andrew about my earlier post about the additives. Keep in mind he's a scientist not a sales rep.

-------------------------------
Andrew, see link.
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-335#post-5536262

2 posts below bwalker chimes in.

did I get it right or no?
--------------------------

Your point was valid I think. Mr. Walker is completely uninformed though. A lot goes into 2-stroke additives beyond detergents. I suppose I can’t say for sure about other companies to know exactly what goes into it, but the Bel-Ray 2-stroke oils have a lot beyond just detergents in our additive systems.


Testing of other company’s 2-stroke products for marine and powersports applications leads me to the conclusion that some may limit it at detergency additives and leave the rest of the job to the base fluids, but that any of the high performance brands definitely add more complicated additive packages to their products.


AndrewHodges, OMA I
Product Line Manager, Powersports Division | Bel-Ray Company, LLC
Office: (732) 378-4064 | Fax: (732) 378-4064
E-mail:[email protected]


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> by the way I emailed Andrew about my earlier post about the additives. Keep in mind he's a scientist not a sales rep.
> 
> -------------------------------
> Andrew, see link.
> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-335#post-5536262
> 
> 2 posts below bwalker chimes in.
> 
> did I get it right or no?
> --------------------------
> 
> Your point was valid I think. Mr. Walker is completely uninformed though. A lot goes into 2-stroke additives beyond detergents. I suppose I can’t say for sure about other companies to know exactly what goes into it, but the Bel-Ray 2-stroke oils have a lot beyond just detergents in our additive systems.
> 
> 
> Testing of other company’s 2-stroke products for marine and powersports applications leads me to the conclusion that some may limit it at detergency additives and leave the rest of the job to the base fluids, but that any of the high performance brands definitely add more complicated additive packages to their products.
> 
> 
> AndrewHodges, OMA I
> Product Line Manager, Powersports Division | Bel-Ray Company, LLC
> Office: (732) 378-4064 | Fax: (732) 378-4064
> E-mail:[email protected]


Andrew is mistaken and as I said previously I have posted the analysis to prove it. It really isn't that complicated.. and what does it even matter? In your initial post you stated a few things in regards to ratio that where simply incorrect based on false assumptions like you often do.
What ever is in Belray formulation it clearly isn't worth a darn.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Andrew is mistaken and as I said previously I have posted the analysis to prove it. It really isn't that complicated.. and what does it even matter? In your initial post you stated a few things in regards to ratio that where simply incorrect based on false assumptions like you often do.
> What ever is in Belray formulation it clearly isn't worth a darn.



whatever dude.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> whatever dude.


Yea, whatever..


----------



## Trx250r180

Is it ok to start running bel-ray again ?


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> I don't want to hear I told you so, because no one here has posted this in 335 pages.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> One reason to run more oil (in many cases), would be to get more additives into the engine.
> 
> hypothetical bottle of "xyz" oil (the make up/formulation)
> 80% oil
> 10% solvents
> *10% additives - corrosion inhibitors, anti wear, anti seize, friction reducer, detergents, anti smoke...stuff like that.*
> ----
> 100%
> 
> Say you dump in a typical 4oz of xyz in...
> 
> so 3.2oz = oil, .4oz = solvents, .4oz = additives.
> 
> 4oz - 32:1= 1.00 gal
> 4oz - 40:1 = 1.25 gal *so @ 40:1 you've diluted/stretched your .40z of additives by 25% over 32:1*
> 4oz - 50:1 = 1.56 gal *and @ 50:1 you've diluted/stretched your .4oz of additives by 56%. over 32:1*
> 
> 
> I did say in most cases. Additive packages are all over the map...ie. how much of which and quality of which that make up that typical 10%.
> 
> Stihl ultra additives are specific to saws. (saws only?) They say you can run 50:1. So their additive package probably good enough at 50:1.
> 
> However, many of these other oils aren't geared towards saws. So running extra oil and thus extra additives (vs stihl ultra) = probably a good thing. Unless you know the make up of the oil and that the additive package is super strong and thus could be run at 50:1. oils that come to mind for that would be ultra, 800, h1r, and maybe amsoil since they shout 100:1 all the time.
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting anything here. I do think I am presenting something that hasn't been presented here before. Personally I'll error on the side of caution as additives are very important.


Suppose for a second that there may be some truth in this. What difference does it make?


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> Oil ratio is mostly dictated by rpms and load, which are what determines oil migration time through a motor.



bsfc


----------



## porsche965

I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios. 

Where do I go from here?


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> bsfc


No.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

try some outboard oil if your brave enough or maybe some supertech air cooled or even poulan oil.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> Suppose for a second that there may be some truth in this. What difference does it make?



some truth. good grief.

Do I really have to spell everything out for you?

Here ya go. Basically...

all I did was provide more reasoning to run more oil.

I said additives were very important.

I said you get 56% less of the additives in the engine by running 50:1 vs 32:1. Point there is even if 50:1 is enough oil, your still getting less additives. That could be good or bad depending on the quality of said additives.

Think carefully about that..."even if 50:1 has enough oil, your still getting less of the additives."

I don't care what you take away from it as long as...

1. you don't say there is only 1-2 additive in 2t oil. Of course there is more than 1-2 additives in the oils we are using! I mean good grief that should go with out saying! It's like me saying the sky is blue and you argue that it's green just to argue....it's soo absurd it's mind boggling.

Look at the msds's http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

oil formulated = they are all basically like the following...

- base oils
- may or may not have solvents
- additive package.



I am giving reasons to run more oil and your arguing with me. I mean yes I know you don't like me. But good grief use your head...don't you realize you are making arguments hypocritical to your very own views on oil.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> No.



your description.

edit. somehow i quoted myself. lol.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios.
> 
> Where do I go from here?


I have yet to


porsche965 said:


> I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios.
> 
> Where do I go from here?


There are a few things that cause this, but most often it isn't the oils fault. Using the wrong oil for the application, poor port design and bad carb tuning all can cause issues like you mention.
I had a cr500 engine that would literally digest any oil combo you through at it from 20 to 50:1 with out issue or even changing the carb settings. When I first set the bike up it only required one step leaner pilot jet and that was it. Very forgiving motor. On the opposite spectrum I have a Stihl 260 I Just bought that is a complete dog out of the box and is very sensitive to change in carb tuning and oil ratio. I believe this is partially because the motor is so choked up in the muffler and carb.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> you description.


No and as it pertains to oil ratio the opposite is true.


----------



## one.man.band

load rpm friction efficiency.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> some truth. good grief.
> 
> Do I really have to spell everything out for you?
> 
> Here ya go. Basically...
> 
> all I did was provide more reasoning to run more oil.
> 
> I said additives were very important.
> 
> I said you get 56% less of the additives in the engine by running 50:1 vs 32:1. Point there is even if 50:1 is enough oil, your still getting less additives. That could be good or bad depending on the quality of said additives.
> 
> Think carefully about that..."even if 50:1 has enough oil, your still getting less of the additives."
> 
> I don't care what you take away from it as long as...
> 
> 1. you don't say there is only 1-2 additive in 2t oil. Of course there is more than 1-2 additives in the oils we are using! I mean good grief that should go with out saying! It's like me saying the sky is blue and you argue that it's green just to argue....it's soo absurd it's mind boggling.
> 
> Look at the msds's http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417
> 
> oil formulated = they are all basically like the following...
> 
> - base oils
> - may or may not have solvents
> - additive package.
> 
> 
> 
> I am giving reasons to run more oil and your arguing with me. I mean yes I know you don't like me. But good grief use your head...don't you realize you are making arguments hypocritical to your very own views on oil.


Your wrong in a few items. One being that really there are not more than a few additives in two stroke oil... Number two, I don't dislike you. And lastly it's the engine that dictates ratio and not additives.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> No and as it pertains to oil ratio the opposite is true.



....go ahead.


----------



## blsnelling

Guys, it really is this simply. Pick the oil that you think smells best, or gives you the warmest fuzzies, mix it at whatever ratio lets you sleep at night (I'm not sure some here do), and go cut wood. The chances of you seeing an oil related failure are slim to none. Of course, if you're pushing the envelope with a built saw, I always advise to err on the side of caution and use a little more oil. It really is just that simply. 336 pages and this thread has proven virtually nothing. Only one oil has really been tested, so we can't even really draw conclusions on it. All this much ado about nothing blows my mind. I guess to each their own!

Hey @Andyshine77 , you got enough additives in your oil?


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> ....go ahead.


A high hp motor, large displacement motor with a higher sfc will often stress it's lubricant much less than a smaller motor with a lower sfc.


----------



## one.man.band

gotta get some zzz's. has anyone seen a bsfc graph? fuel consumption at vs. rpm at load is what it shows. curious to know what you are referring to b?

edit. spelling


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> A high hp motor, large displacement motor with a higher sfc will often stress it's lubricant much less than a smaller motor with a lower sfc.



......first off. hp has nothing to do with it.

larger motors have more cooling capability.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Your wrong in a few items. One being that really there are not more than a few additives in two stroke oil... Number two, I don't dislike you. And lastly it's the engine that dictates ratio and not additives.



1. someone a whole smarter than you says there are more than a few. and even the websites say so as do the labels. 

2. wasn't talking to you. even read the post?

3. I didn't even say that additives dictated ratio. 

wtf



blsnelling said:


> Guys, it really is this simply. Pick the oil that you think smells best, or gives you the warmest fuzzies, mix it at whatever ratio lets you sleep at night (I'm not sure some here do), and go cut wood. The chances of you seeing an oil related failure are slim to none. Of course, if you're pushing the envelope with a built saw, I always advise to err on the side of caution and use a little more oil. It really is just that simply. 336 pages and this thread has proven virtually nothing. Only one oil has really been tested, so we can't even really draw conclusions on it. All this much ado about nothing blows my mind. I guess to each their own!
> 
> Hey @Andyshine77 , you got enough additives in your oil?



brad if you just want to be a simpleton about it...then just quit wasting your time and leave.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> gotta get some zzz's. has anyone seen a bsfc graph? fuel consumption at vs. rpm at load is what it shows. curious to know what you are referring to b?
> 
> edit. spelling


Bsfc is a ratio of fuel consumption to output.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> ......first off. hp has nothing to do with it.
> 
> larger motors have more cooling capability.


The BS part of BSFC is break specific HP.


----------



## one.man.band

some smaller motors have much larger bsfc than larger cc's. husq site lists g/kWh if you are interested. not always based on cc.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> 1. someone a whole smarter than you says there are more than a few. and even the websites say so as do the labels.
> 
> 2. wasn't talking to you. even read the post?
> 
> 3. I didn't even say that additives dictated ratio.
> 
> wtf
> 
> 
> 
> brad if you just want to be a simpleton about it...then just quit wasting your time and leave.


1. I posted test data and Andrew is wrong. 2. I could care less, this is an open forum.
3.Yes, you actually did.


----------



## one.man.band

all the bsfc graphs that i have seen are torque based. never encountered a hp based one so far. like to see one.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> ......first off. hp has nothing to do with it.
> 
> larger motors have more cooling capability.


I never said it's an absolute, I said "often". Strato charging throws a wrench in things for instance, as do different engine designs, like diesels, four strokes, etc.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> all the bsfc graphs that i have seen are torque based. never encountered a hp based one so far. like to see one.


A better word to use would have been output. My bad. Although HP= Torque × RPM÷5252.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> 1. I posted test data and Andrew is wrong. 2. I could care less, this is an open forum.
> 3.Yes, you actually did.



1. No, you are dead wrong. End of story. You are "completely uninformed."
2. well it has nothing to do with you. There is no reason for you to respond. Yet you want to argue with everyone, so I understand why you did.
3. No, actually I did not.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> 1. No, you are dead wrong. End of story. You are "completely uninformed."
> 2. well it has nothing to do with you. There is no reason for you to respond. Yet you want to argue with everyone, so I understand why you did.
> 3. No, actually I did not.


Your so called scientist is the one not informed and you do not know enough o know the differance.
Again this is a public board and misinformation being diseminated by you does no one any good.
And actually you did..
One thing is apparent. After 336 pages you have not gained even a slight understanding of the subject. Bravo!


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Your so called scientist is the one not informed and you do not know enough o know the differance.
> Again this is a public board and misinformation being diseminated by you does no one any good.
> And actually you did..



yeah well he actually formulates oil for a living. Your just good with your debate skillz and searching google.
the only misinformation is coming from you. 
and no I did not. 

furthermore what your saying completely contradicts your love for k2 and 2r. It's so false it's absurd. I mean you've really reached an all time low with this one. I dunno maybe the time you told me to run 16:1 (or was it 8:1..and yeah you were dead serious!) in my 660 and expect more power... hmm. 

bottom line - I said more additives was a GOOD THING. I'm saying it's GOOD to run more oil for the lube and the additives. k2 and 2r both have a bunch of them...which is GOOD. But as usual you just want to argue with someone and so your contradicting your own views now just for the sake of you gotta be right and argue argue argue. I'm saying it's good and your saying no they don't have additives or only 1 or 2 and and they don't even matter. LOL 

Bwalker - king of debate. Be warned!!! You will lose even if your right!


----------



## Stihlman441

porsche965 said:


> I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios.
> 
> Where do I go from here?


 
Um
Pick one of the fully synthetics you like the smell of and run it at 40 : 1
Done


----------



## scallywag




----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> yeah well he actually formulates oil for a living. Your just good with your debate skillz and searching google.
> the only misinformation is coming from you.
> and no I did not.
> 
> furthermore what your saying completely contradicts your love for k2 and 2r. It's so false it's absurd. I mean you've really reached an all time low with this one. I dunno maybe the time you told me to run 16:1 (or was it 8:1..and yeah you were dead serious!) in my 660 and expect more power... hmm.
> 
> bottom line - I said more additives was a GOOD THING. I'm saying it's GOOD to run more oil for the lube and the additives. k2 and 2r both have a bunch of them...which is GOOD. But as usual you just want to argue with someone and so your contradicting your own views now just for the sake of you gotta be right and argue argue argue. I'm saying it's good and your saying no they don't have additives or only 1 or 2 and and they don't even matter. LOL
> 
> Bwalker - king of debate. Be warned!!! You will lose even if your right!


I doubt the guy formulates anything or he wouldn't be corresponding with every cull that called or emailed.
Further I have posted data in this thread that proves Andrew is indeed wrong.
What I am saying is you don't have a clue.. And your mentality where more is better or a certain high temp base oil is better is telling of someone who doesn't understand two cycle lubricants at all.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I doubt the guy formulates anything or he wouldn't be corresponding with every cull that called or emailed.
> Further I have posted data in this thread that proves Andrew is indeed wrong.
> What I am saying is you don't have a clue.. And your mentality where more is better or a certain high temp base oil is better is telling of someone who doesn't understand two cycle lubricants at all.




cull - is that your favorite word? I see you use it often. So we're all inferior to you huh. 

sure sure. So where is it? you always reference this stuff you posted but never link to it.

I like that the chemical engineer/formulator, guy who actually engineers the stuff, says that I had a good points *and that you are completely uninformed.* LOL 



The only thing telling is that you think you are superior to everyone. That is the only thing you've shown or proven in 337 pages.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> cull - is that your favorite word? I see you use it often. So we're all inferior to you huh.
> 
> sure sure. So where is it? you always reference this stuff you posted but never link to it.
> 
> I like that the chemical engineer/formulator, guy who actually engineers the stuff, says that I had a good points *and that you are completely uninformed.* yet you still with all your pride and superiority will not wavier in your grandiose self reflection.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing telling is that you think you are superior to everyone. That is the only thing you've shown or proven in 337 pages.


Its posted on this thread... and don't lump everyone else in with your OCD madness.
And if I am completely uninformed why doesn't Andrew list what additives that Belray uses? It's not proprietary as anyone with $35 can have a VOA done, which shows most additives.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Its posted on this thread... and don't lump everyone else in with your OCD madness.



no it's not. where is it? Show us! Please!

yeah I've seen your old posts. You treat everyone like dirt unless they worship you or think exactly like you.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> no it's not. where is it? Show us! Please!
> 
> yeah I've seen your old posts. You treat everyone like dirt unless they worship you or think exactly like you.


Keep looking, I'm not doing the leg work for you...
I treat people how they treat me. You get hostile, so will I. You are the one who got uncivil, like you typically do when someone doesn't go along with the factually incorrect non sense you post.


----------



## redbull660

your "research" it doesn't exist ...you are all about being a keyboard commando and not doing leg work. 

I think most people here would disagree with that self assessment of how you treat people. 

yeah all these 2t oils they only have a 1-2 additives. your so full of it. Doesn't matter if it says different on the bottle, doesn't matter if the msds says otherwise, doesn't matter if a 2t chemical engineer/oil formulator says different. Doesn't even matter that the oil you like most has 16-20% of the bottle is additives.

Your research which you haven't furnished...says otherwise and you are correct. Whatever pal. 

Your so full of yourself it's insane.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> The only thing telling is that you think you are superior to everyone. That is the only thing you've shown or proven in 337 pages.


The only thing you have proven is you don't understand the concept of variables and you can't operate a saw consistantly enough to make your tests even sort of valid.


redbull660 said:


> your "research" it doesn't exist ...you are all about being a keyboard commando and not doing leg work.
> 
> I think most people here would disagree with that self assessment of how you treat people.
> 
> yeah all these 2t oils they only have a 1-2 additives. your so full of it. Doesn't matter if it says different on the bottle, doesn't matter if the msds says otherwise, doesn't matter if a 2t chemical engineer/oil formulator says different. Doesn't even matter that the oil you like most has 16-20% of the bottle is additives.
> 
> Your research which you haven't furnished...says otherwise and you are correct. Whatever pal.
> 
> Your so full of yourself it's insane.


Your good at google.. do the research yourself. I will not make up for your intellectual laziness.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> The only thing you have proven is you don't understand the concept of variables and you can't operate a saw consistantly enough to make your tests even sort of valid.
> 
> Your good at google.. do the research yourself. I will not make up for your intellectual laziness.




----- Original Message -----
*From:* Hodges, Andrew
*To:* 'RedBull660'
*Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2015 9:19 AM
*Subject:* RE: Form submission from: Contact

I just caught up with the thread and this bwalker guy is comical. He does not understand oils analysis techniques and how to analyze them for one. Secondly, he does not understand how an elemental analysis works or how to interpret the results of one at all. The VOAs that he posted are fairly useless as they only scan for 3 commonly used elements in 2-stroke formulation with 2 others that are very rarely used and another 9 results that are worthless for analyzing fresh oil.

It is absurd that he is saying that he knows the ingredients of two stroke oil better than someone who literally formulates them for a living as you said. If I were you, I would just throw my hands up and turn your back on it. This guy is a troll and wasting the thread participant’s time with his nonsense.

He also has no idea how technical and customer service works for a competent company who cares about their customers. I speak to “every cull that calls and emails” as he puts it, or as I like to refer to them, people with questions, because no one knows product formulas properties and performance better than a formulator and tester. He can disagree about product performance all he wants, but don’t try to tell me what I do every single day and call me a liar.

I am sorry to go on a bit of a tirade about this, but I get the feeling you are probably feeling a bit the same way. This will be the last time I let his nonsense get to me because I won’t respond to any of his comments after this point and I would suggest the members of AS to do the same.

AndrewHodges, OMA I
Product Line Manager, Powersports Division | Bel-Ray Company, LLC







-----------------------------------------------------

I think I am going to follow Andrew's above advice. I'm outta here.


----------



## bwalker

He still hasn't provided you a list, eh?
I most certainly do know how to interpret a VOA and I know which elements point to which additives..


----------



## Slackerjpt




----------



## one.man.band

bwalker.....just so you know, the only reason i mentioned bsfc, was because i thought you were referring to it in your previous post. the bsfc angle to all this, is just how i think about it.
for a few reasons.. first one is that bsfc shows how much fuel (mass) a motor is using at various rpms with increasing load. if you know how much fuel, you can figure approximately how much oil. 2% 3% 4% etc.

the second reason, the bsfc wfo curve, when viewed upside down, shows the shape of the torque curve of the engine. also, more importantly (to me anyway), shows the delivery ratio. since the delivery ratio (fresh fuel air ingested charge).......is what everyone who has held a grinder or rasp is changing. off topic.

guess to sum up, i see it as a volume thing, because its the basis of the thread, caught my eye. at low rpm, the ports are too big, motor gets way over oiled. at very high rpm under load...... under oiled because ports too small. the high rpm under load situation is bad. but luckily, as the saw gets into this situation it cures itself. because it cannot get enough air......rpms slow down, putting it in a better place to get oil. friction goes up with rpm, so that and air are the stumbling blocks, that cause this quick drop off the cliff in torque and hp curves. how quickly the temp comes down after letting off the throttle is pretty cool. easy to see with a temp gun.

wrote too much......probably wrong, but somehow these motors do stay together.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> bwalker.....just so you know, the only reason i mentioned bsfc, was because i thought you were referring to it in your previous post. the bsfc angle to all this, is just how i think about it.
> for a few reasons.. first one is that bsfc shows how much fuel (mass) a motor is using at various rpms with increasing load. if you know how much fuel, you can figure approximately how much oil. 2% 3% 4% etc.
> 
> the second reason, the bsfc wfo curve, when viewed upside down, shows the shape of the torque curve of the engine. also, more importantly (to me anyway), shows the delivery ratio. since the delivery ratio (fresh fuel air ingested charge).......is what everyone who has held a grinder or rasp is changing. off topic.
> 
> guess to sum up, i see it as a volume thing, because its the basis of the thread, caught my eye. at low rpm, the ports are too big, motor gets way over oiled. at very high rpm under load...... under oiled because ports too small. the high rpm under load situation is bad. but luckily, as the saw gets into this situation it cures itself. because it cannot get enough air......rpms slow down, putting it in a better place to get oil. friction goes up with rpm, so that and air are the stumbling blocks, that cause this quick drop off the cliff in torque and hp curves. how quickly the temp comes down after letting off the throttle is pretty cool. easy to see with a temp gun.
> 
> wrote too much......probably wrong, but somehow these motors do stay together.


I knew were you were coming from and thanks for the injection of sanity to this thread..
If you take the word port out of what you wrote, your basically saying the same thing as the Maxima oil migration study.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> bwalker.....just so you know, the only reason i mentioned bsfc, was because i thought you were referring to it in your previous post. the bsfc angle to all this, is just how i think about it.
> for a few reasons.. first one is that bsfc shows how much fuel (mass) a motor is using at various rpms with increasing load. if you know how much fuel, you can figure approximately how much oil. 2% 3% 4% etc.
> 
> the second reason, the bsfc wfo curve, when viewed upside down, shows the shape of the torque curve of the engine. also, more importantly (to me anyway), shows the delivery ratio. since the delivery ratio (fresh fuel air ingested charge).......is what everyone who has held a grinder or rasp is changing. off topic.
> 
> guess to sum up, i see it as a volume thing, because its the basis of the thread, caught my eye. at low rpm, the ports are too big, motor gets way over oiled. at very high rpm under load...... under oiled because ports too small. the high rpm under load situation is bad. but luckily, as the saw gets into this situation it cures itself. because it cannot get enough air......rpms slow down, putting it in a better place to get oil. friction goes up with rpm, so that and air are the stumbling blocks, that cause this quick drop off the cliff in torque and hp curves. how quickly the temp comes down after letting off the throttle is pretty cool. easy to see with a temp gun.
> 
> wrote too much......probably wrong, but somehow these motors do stay together.


One other thing. Think of torque as a measure of cylinder filling efficiency. Essentially that's what it is.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Now formulators and scientists from Belray are joining in[emoji1] this is truly the best oil thread AS will ever see.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> brad if you just want to be a simpleton about it...then just quit wasting your time and leave.



They're far more important things to deal with in life. If you were an adult, you'd already know this.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Pick a good oil mix it 32:1-40:1 and cut wood there really isn't much more to it.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Group hug in the shower.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> They're far more important things to deal with in life. If you were an adult, you'd already know this.




This thread is an in depth or is supposed to be an in depth discussion on oil. Philosophy and the meaning of life etc etc ...well Im pretty sure that's in another thread...well probably on some other message board.


----------



## big t double

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Group hug in the shower.


I'm in. Where do I sign up.


----------



## gunnusmc03

big t double said:


> I'm in. Where do I sign up.



Is everyone facing inboard or outboard?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

PUKE PUKE PUKE!!!!!


----------



## LowVolt

big t double said:


> I'm in. Where do I sign up.



No sign up sheet, just rob a bank....



gunnusmc03 said:


> Is everyone facing inboard or outboard?



Does it really matter? 


Gross...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> This thread is an in depth or is supposed to be an in depth discussion on oil. Philosophy and the meaning of life etc etc ...well Im pretty sure that's in another thread...well probably on some other message board.


Granted, but it's pretty apparent your obsession is consuming.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> I'm in. Where do I sign up.



Im not sure whats funnier..this thread or how serious people take group hug in the shower poasts....weirdos.


----------



## hardpan

gunnusmc03 said:


> Is everyone facing inboard or outboard?



The rule is simple. Hole to hole or pole to pole, but not pole to hole.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

big t double said:


> I'm in. Where do I sign up.



At the blue oyster , ask for king dong or ram-bro the chocolate stallion.


----------



## porsche965

Bad bad bad.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> He still hasn't provided you a list, eh?
> I most certainly do know how to interpret a VOA and I know which elements point to which additives..


Do you really think he is going to divulge confidential product ingredients to anyone outside his company? I noticed he had a email address, email him directly, tell him where he is going wrong & how on earth did he get such prestigious job at a leading company when he doesn't know what he's talking about!


----------



## Bwildered

hardpan said:


> The rule is simple. Hole to hole or pole to pole, but not pole to hole.


And don't drop the soap!
Tangst


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Do you really think he is going to divulge confidential product ingredients to anyone outside his company? I noticed he had a email address, email him directly, tell him where he is going wrong & how on earth did he get such prestigious job at a leading company when he doesn't know what he's talking about!


Its not confidential at all. In industry we are always testing this stuff.
Belray isn't a leading company and I suspect he is an office person.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Here he is
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-hodges/60/380/7b3


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Its not confidential at all. In industry we are always testing this stuff.
> Belray isn't a leading company and I suspect he is an office person.


Instead of dribbling on you could have emailed him instead of me in the time it took you to waste the time it took you to do it, he's actually a somebody, but I don't like your chances of a response after reading what he thinks of trolling nobodies, post the response if you get one, it should be interesting.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Instead of dribbling on you could have emailed him instead of me in the time it took you to waste the time it took you to do it, he's actually a somebody, but I don't like your chances of a response after reading what he thinks of trolling nobodies, post the response if you get one, it should be interesting.


I have no interest in emailing him as I have no interest in Belray products.
Further, for an engineer I find it pretty strange he make alot of assumptions. First I deal with VOA as part of my professional career and have for years. I have had training qualifying me to do so. Same with UOA. I also know which elements point to which additives and also which can't be picked up by VOA. Further, I have been doing this stuff since he was in highschool. It's really not all that hard..


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Its a shame the discontinued mx2t.... but yamalube 2r is a good replacement.


I'm surprised no one seems to be aware of Lubegard's 2 cycle oil. I've used Mobil 1 Racing 2t and decided to experiment with Lubegard's product. The stuff seem like a possible replacement for it: http://www.amazon.com/Lubegard-1293...d=1442604826&sr=8-2&keywords=lubegard+premium

It is thinner than mx2t, probably SAE20 grade. It has an unusual color dye also, it's a deep yellow. I'm breaking in an old Redmax blower, HBZ2500 that was never used, and using an overkill ratio of 16:1 and it has NO smoke, not even on startup. Also what's really surprising is that even with that much oil, there is zero oil residue coming out of the muffler. It seems like that might still be too much oil though, even for break in because it *just* barely stops 4-stroking at full throttle, So I'm thinking of backing off the oil to either 18:1, or 20:1. Lubegard also doesn't produce the objectionable (to me) smell of mx2t/m1r. No idea how well it truly protects because I've never done a tear down after using it for any length of time. I still have a lot of m1 racing if anyone wants to buy any (like 8 cases).

Anyways, this is a very interesting thread. It's like arboristsite meets bobistheoilguy.com.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I have no interest in emailing him as I have no interest in Belray products.
> Further, for an engineer I find it pretty strange he make alot of assumptions. First I deal with VOA as part of my professional career and have for years. I have had training qualifying me to do so. Same with UOA. I also know which elements point to which additives and also which can't be picked up by VOA. Further, I have been doing this stuff since he was in highschool. It's really not all that hard..


What I & anybody else reading is seeing is you're not interested in talking to anybody who actually is in the oil industry designing 2t oils, the fellow is willing & open to discuss oil related questions from individuals. What qualifications & training do you actually have? What specific oil industry experience do you have as a 2t oil designer. Your comments about belray oils are hilarious, it's a bit like saying stihl or husqvarna don't know how to make a chainsaw.


----------



## bwalker

Have have nothing to ask.
I listed my qualifications previously on this thread. What are you qualifications?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Have have nothing to ask.
> I listed my qualifications previously on this thread. What are you qualifications?


How about re posting them for the unqualified, or putting them on your profile page, some of us are getting old & don't have much time left to waste chasing that sort of thing. We know you don't have to ask an industry oil expert because you say you know it all, but some of us aren't convinced about the depth & soundness of your knowledge.


----------



## bwalker

I'm not wasting my time...it's out there.


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## Stihlman441

Ilmater said:


> I'm surprised no one seems to be aware of Lubegard's 2 cycle oil. I've used Mobil 1 Racing 2t and decided to experiment with Lubegard's product. The stuff seem like a possible replacement for it: http://www.amazon.com/Lubegard-1293...d=1442604826&sr=8-2&keywords=lubegard+premium
> 
> It is thinner than mx2t, probably SAE20 grade. It has an unusual color dye also, it's a deep yellow. I'm breaking in an old Redmax blower, HBZ2500 that was never used, and using an overkill ratio of 16:1 and it has NO smoke, not even on startup. Also what's really surprising is that even with that much oil, there is zero oil residue coming out of the muffler. It seems like that might still be too much oil though, even for break in because it *just* barely stops 4-stroking at full throttle, So I'm thinking of backing off the oil to either 18:1, or 20:1. Lubegard also doesn't produce the objectionable (to me) smell of mx2t/m1r. No idea how well it truly protects because I've never done a tear down after using it for any length of time. I still have a lot of m1 racing if anyone wants to buy any (like 8 cases).
> 
> Anyways, this is a very interesting thread. It's like arboristsite meets bobistheoilguy.com.



I have been using the Mobil 1 racing 2T for years and is good stuff but getting harder to find and expensive in Ozz


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Trx250r180 said:


>


none of those crowns look good.


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> none of those crowns look good.



You obviously haven't been in any high hour equipment.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i have but not any stihls most of what i pull apart look like this


----------



## Deleted member 83629

and here is the crown


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> and here is the crown
> View attachment 448085



And you think that looks better?? Buildup on the crown is normal the skirts, rings and pin should be clean, ultra provides that.

As does R50.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

I didn't say it looks better did i, I do know ultra provides that but i will not under any circumstances burn ultra in anything 2 stroke i own period
it smells bad and gives me splitting headaches, furthermore i was just showing pictures of what i seen in two strokes engines that are run day in and day out.


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> none of those crowns look good.





jakewells said:


> I didn't say it looks better did i, I do know ultra provides that but i will not under any circumstances burn ultra in anything 2 stroke i own period
> it smells bad and gives me splitting headaches, furthermore i was just showing pictures of what i seen in two strokes engines that are run day in and day out.



Than what was your point? You don't like Ultra and that's fine, but the pics you posted were not from an engine ran on ultra, and they would look better if the engine was ran on any good oil, like ultra. You were trying to insinuate that Ultra is a poor product, simply because it smells bad, "which it does" but that has nothing to do with the oils performance.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

that engine was ran on poulan oil for the majority of it's life stihl oil isn't bad oil just over priced.


----------



## KG441c

Ive hardly pulled any engines that have that much blow by. Looks horrible and rings must be shot? What saw was that on?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

engine was a old chainsaw from the 70-80's i think a echo 302??? saw has about 110 lbs of compression the jug was very nice no scoring and the crosshatch was still there.
the upper ring was partially stuck crappy oil and bad tune was most likely what caused the problem.


----------



## KG441c

Wow! I bet new rings woulda fixed her


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> none of those crowns look good.


The piston crown ran on Ultra doesn't look bad assuming it's been run high hours.
People have the unrealistic idea that the piston crown should be bare metal. If the crown is bare metal it simply means your running too rich or have minimal time on the motor.


----------



## scallywag




----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> And you think that looks better?? Buildup on the crown is normal the skirts, rings and pin should be clean, ultra provides that.
> 
> As does R50.
> 
> View attachment 448092


That's what I like to see. Proper tuning too!


----------



## Ilmater

blsnelling said:


> BWalker, break it down for us, oil by oil. Andre, I'd like to see your opinions as well.
> 
> 
> Belray H1-R
> Motul 800 2T
> Amsoil Dominator
> Klotz R50
> Maxima K2
> Silkolene Pro 2
> Yamalube 2R
> Bailey's Full Synthetic


lets add:

9. Putoline RS959
10. Lubegard 2 Cycle oil (Liquid Wax Ester)
11. Torco GP-7
12. Legend ZX-2SR
13. Ipone Samurai
14. Blue Marble
15. LiquiMoly Racing Synth 2T
16. Lucas Semi Synthetic
17. Royal Purple HP 2-C
18. Renewable Lubricants Bio-SynXtra


----------



## KG441c

Ilmater said:


> lets add:
> 
> 9. Putoline RS959
> 10. Lubegard 2 Cycle oil (Liquid Wax Ester)
> 11. Torco GP-7
> 12. Legend ZX-2SR
> 13. Ipone Samurai
> 14. Blue Marble
> 15. LiquiMoly Racing Synth 2T
> 16. Lucas Semi Synthetic
> 17. Royal Purple HP 2-C
> 18. Renewable Lubricants Bio-SynXtra


2,4,5,7


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> lets add:
> 
> 9. Putoline RS959
> 10. Lubegard 2 Cycle oil (Liquid Wax Ester)
> 11. Torco GP-7
> 12. Legend ZX-2SR
> 13. Ipone Samurai
> 14. Blue Marble
> 15. LiquiMoly Racing Synth 2T
> 16. Lucas Semi Synthetic
> 17. Royal Purple HP 2-C
> 18. Renewable Lubricants Bio-SynXtra


None of those are widely available besides Lucas and RP. RP is a boat oil and Lucas is an injection/oil.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> None of those are widely available besides Lucas and RP. RP is a boat oil and Lucas is an injection/oil.


Why limit oneself to only what brick and mortar stores carry? Amazon or Ebay constitute adequate availability as far as I'm concerned, but YMMV. That being said, one oil in my list, Lucas Semi syn can be bought from Napa Auto Parts stores.

P.S. Just because an oil is an "injection oil" doesn't mean it can't perform just as well in a premix application like a saw or other ***.


----------



## Deets066

The title of this thread should be changed to- 

The meaningless never ending banter of bullsh!t


----------



## Deets066

Deets066 said:


> The title of this thread should be changed to-
> 
> The meaningless never ending banter of bullsh!t


Seriously!


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Why limit oneself to only what brick and mortar stores carry? Amazon or Ebay constitute adequate availability as far as I'm concerned, but YMMV. That being said, one oil in my list, Lucas Semi syn can be bought from Napa Auto Parts stores.
> 
> P.S. Just because an oil is an "injection oil" doesn't mean it can't perform just as well in a premix application like a saw or other ***.


An injection oil is a comprise and one I don't care nor have to make. Ditto with a marine oil. Good air cooled pre mix only oils are readily available, so why not use the correct oil type for the application?
I also have no desire to try every obscure oil under the sun. Buying over the internet is another thing I'd rather not do as its just easier for me to stop by a retailer when I'm driving by and pick some up.


----------



## bwalker

Deets066 said:


> Seriously!


Just curious why your still following it then?


----------



## Deets066

bwalker said:


> Just curious why your still following it then?


I can't help it


----------



## Deets066

bwalker said:


> An injection oil is a comprise and one I don't care nor have to make. Ditto with a marine oil. Good air cooled pre mix only oils are readily available, so why not use the correct oil type for the application?
> I also have no desire to try every obscure oil under the sun. Buying over the internet is another thing I'd rather not do as its just easier for me to stop by a retailer when I'm driving by and pick some up.


How do you feel about the oils that are labeled "for injection or premix"?


----------



## bwalker

Deets066 said:


> How do you feel about the oils that are labeled "for injection or premix"?


Most injection oils are labeled exactly like that. I will not use any dual purpose oil, period.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> An injection oil is a comprise and one I don't care nor have to make.


I'm not telling anyone to use the Lucas injection oil. Nothing wrong with someone testing different products even if you will never use them.



bwalker said:


> Ditto with a marine oil.


To each their own:
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?s=9095e785d21d78d32f216c0a82558b72&t=74239&page=2


> Figured I would jump in here with a different perspective.
> 
> I fly 2 gasser helicopters that run consistently in the 12500-14000 rpm range and don't get even close to the amount of cooling and airflow that air engines do.
> 
> I have been running pennzoil marine (this EXACT oil in question by the OP) for over 2 years. Both my engines are $500+ modified engines by TRM (Toxic Racing) and BH (BH Hanson). Both oils have been tested and BH Hanson even recommends it as an option.
> 
> The Oil was originally tested and verified to work exceptionally well by Chris Bergen of Bergen RC Helicopters and has been used and is currently being used by a very large segment of the Gasser RC Heli Community. You can do a search at Helifreak and Runryder.com and see that this oil has undergone some serous discussion and scrutiny.
> 
> I am currently running it in my DLE35RA and have had the engine apart and it looks wonderful on the inside...just like the rest of my engines.
> 
> The ONLY complaint I have ever had is that it does build up a small amount of carbon. BUT, I have yet to find an oil that doesn't. There are many variables to that and, per Al at TRM, a small heart shaped carbon pattern on the top of the piston is normal.
> 
> In summary, using this oil is perfectly fine. It runs exceptionally well and WILL NOT damage your engine. If you are concerned, as others have stated, there are tons of oils out there to choose from and at the end of the day, if it makes you feel better, go with something else. BUT.....you can run it and your engine will be perfectly fine.
> 
> Anyone who states anything negative about it is simply misinformed or offering pure opinions. We all have opinions, but my statements and results are based on facts collected and experienced by myself and experts in the RC engine industry...not weekend worriers with a keyboard and a mouse.
> 
> To answer the OP specifically: PENZOIL Marine full synthetic is GOOD





bwalker said:


> Good air cooled pre mix only oils are readily available, so why not use the correct oil type for the application?


Here's an ashless ester based oil that says it can be used for either air cooled or water cooled engines:

http://www.lubegard.com/LXE.aspx
http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-307/LUBEGARD+Premium+2+Cycle+Engine+Oil


----------



## KG441c




----------



## Jimbo209

KG441c said:


> View attachment 448280


Noob Q here (and a a s h I t stirring one as well)
Does that suggest that a CSM UNDER CONSTANT LOAD may simulate a outboard motor as it does 7500-9500 under load for a extended time
Thanks guys


----------



## KG441c

Without making the thread any more pointless as its become use the table for simplicity. Different applications use different oils and the 2 oils are formulated differently. Why cross them? Use the proper oil or better yet do as Brad said previoisly use what makes you feel warm and fuzzy and concentrate on things that matter such as chain and tuning


----------



## KG441c

They make air cooled premixes for more extreme conditions such as bike racing and milling. Why use injection or tcw premixes?


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> I'm not telling anyone to use the Lucas injection oil. Nothing wrong with someone testing different products even if you will never use them.
> 
> 
> To each their own:
> http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?s=9095e785d21d78d32f216c0a82558b72&t=74239&page=2
> 
> 
> Here's an ashless ester based oil that says it can be used for either air cooled or water cooled engines:
> 
> http://www.lubegard.com/LXE.aspx
> http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-307/LUBEGARD+Premium+2+Cycle+Engine+Oil


Just because someone has used it or because the bottle says it's ok, doesn't mean it is. And again what's so hard about using the correct oil for the application as there are a ton of them out there?
It's your equipment, do what you like, just don't suggest a marine oil or a multi purpose oil are as good as a dedicated pre mix oil for air cooled engines.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Just because someone has used it or because the bottle says it's ok, doesn't mean it is.


Right, and if you say all dual purpose oils aren't ok for air-cooled use, doesn't necessarily mean it they aren't, either. If you haven't personally tested a product appropriately, then saying said oil isn't legitimate is baseless.



bwalker said:


> And again what's so hard about using the correct oil for the application as there are a ton of them out there?


You're actually in agreement with me. The point of me listing all those oils is expressly to put their names out there so that people might be inclined to test them, to see how they actually perform with real world testing. No one in their right mind uses a product primarily based on what's printed on it's label. I'm even considering sending one or two people here some Lubegard at my expense for testing because I don't have the time or resources to do so extensively myself.


> LUBEGARD® technology was developed under the direction of Phillip S. Landis, Ph.D., a highly distinguished research chemist who headed the Mobil Oil Applied Lubrication Research Group until his retirement in 1984. Dr. Landis is a worldwide leader in the mechanistic studies of elimination, rearrangement and pyrolysis reactions of additive preparations for fuel and lubricant applications, and of catalytic organic reactions and petrochemicals. He holds more than one hundred patents.
> 
> ILI's groundbreaking research in vegetable-based replacements of hydrocarbon oils has led to research grants in excess of $2 million from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the Department of Defense and the Soy Bean Board. The Agricultural Research and Commercialization Corporation, a division of the USDA, believes so strongly in ILI's products and research that they own stock in the company.
> 
> *International Lubricants, Inc.*, currently holds over forty US and foreign patents. Their research efforts ensure that they remain on the cutting edge of new product development and product improvements.





> Employed by Mobil Research and Development Corp. 1947-1948, Dr. Landis was awarded a company incentive fellowship. He attended Northwestern University and received a Ph.D. in Organic Chemistry in 1958. His initial work with Mobil involved the synthesis of hydrocarbon-soluble additives for fuels and lubricants at Mobil’s Applied Research Laboratories in Paulsboro, N.J. He was a group leader in petrochemicals for several years and transferred to Mobil’s Central Research Laboratories in Princeton, N.J., where he led groups studying catalysis of organic reactions and oxidations.
> 
> He became manager of the Applied Research Group in 1970. Landis’s early career was concerned with mechanistic studies of elimination, rearrangement and pyrolysis reactions of additive preparations for fuel and lubricant applications of catalytic organic reactions (and of petrochemicals).
> 
> Landis holds 72 patents and is published extensively in major technical chemistry journals. After retiring from Mobil in 1984, he joined the staff at Glassboro State College where he was a Distinguished Scientist-in-Residence. In addition, he is a lubrication design consultant and stockholder with International Lubricants Inc. of Seattle.





> Dr. Phillip Landis was involved in the development of Lubegard
> and Mobil 1.


 http://www.lubegard.se/docs/swissmotor_e.pdf



KG441c said:


> They make air cooled premixes for more extreme conditions such as bike racing and milling. Why use injection or tcw premixes?


Why don't you ask the half a dozen or so people in this very thread that use, and/or mentioned Lucas Semi Synthetic? Look it up on amazon and read the 4-5 star reviews. Are all these people shills? You must know something they don't. Call Lucas and tell them to stop their false advertising that how dare they claim you can have something designated as suitable for BOTH injection and premix applications.

http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Right, and if you say all dual purpose oils aren't ok for air-cooled use, doesn't necessarily mean it they aren't, either. If you haven't personally tested a product appropriately, then saying something isn't legitimate is baseless.
> 
> 
> You're actually in agreement with me. The point of me listing all those oils is expressly to put their names out there so that people might be inclined to test them, to see how they actually perform with real world testing. No one in their right mind uses a product primarily based on what's printed on it's label. I'm even considering sending one or two people here some Lubegard at my expense for testing because I don't have the time or resources to do so extensively myself.
> 
> 
> http://www.lubegard.se/docs/swissmotor_e.pdf


One thing I can say definitely is that multi use products have much lower viscosities and as such lower film strengths. This is not questionable.
Do you have any connection with Lube Guard?
Again, why make a compromise you don't have to make?


----------



## Ron660

Best I remember the VP premix 94 octane cans uses Motul 710 2-cycle oil which is labeled as an injector oil.


----------



## bwalker

And plenty of people are sucked in to marketing on the label.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Best I remember the VP premix 94 octane cans uses Motul 710 2-cycle oil which is labeled as an injector oil.


I don't believe that was ever confirmed?
With that said, I would not use it if that's the case.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> One thing I can say definitely is that multi use products have much lower viscosities and as such lower film strengths. This is not questionable.


1st part is true. However, if film strength was severely compromised at a low viscosity then why haven't millions of car engines failed running on 0w-20 motor oils? (even cars specced for SAE30 by the mfg, running just fine with SAE20) 


bwalker said:


> Do you have any connection with Lube Guard?


None.


bwalker said:


> Again, why make a compromise you don't have to make?


One reason a lot of people might "compromise" here is that they want to save money, while still maintaining high quality.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> 1st part is true. However, if film strength was severely compromised at a low viscosity then why haven't millions of car engines failed running on 0w-20 motor oils? (even cars specced for SAE30 by the mfg, running just fine with SAE20)
> 
> None.
> 
> One reason a lot of people might "compromise" here is that they want to save money, while still maintaining high quality.


Your comparing apples to oranges with the car engine comparison and for several reasons.
Price isn't an issue as dedicated premix oils range from cheap to expensive.
So again, why do you chose compromise?
And Lubegard at $15 plus shipping isn't exactly cheap


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Your comparing apples to oranges with the car engine comparison and for several reasons.


Okay, post proof then that a lower viscosity 2T oil always means that it's film strength must also decrease in proportion to it. You don't think that technology might have enabled the formulation of new lower viscosity 2t ester based oils that still have the film strength of higher viscosity synthetics?


bwalker said:


> So again, why do you chose compromise?


I own, and have used, your favorite oil (M1R), which I made a concerted effort to get a hold of, partly based on your own findings and recommendations in posts about it years ago, so it's odd that you come off like you think I have any desire to compromise. Experimentation =/= compromise.


bwalker said:


> And Lubegard at $15 plus shipping isn't exactly cheap


You can get it elsewhere with free shipping.


----------



## KG441c

Ilmater said:


> Right, and if you say all dual purpose oils aren't ok for air-cooled use, doesn't necessarily mean it they aren't, either. If you haven't personally tested a product appropriately, then saying said oil isn't legitimate is baseless.
> 
> 
> You're actually in agreement with me. The point of me listing all those oils is expressly to put their names out there so that people might be inclined to test them, to see how they actually perform with real world testing. No one in their right mind uses a product primarily based on what's printed on it's label. I'm even considering sending one or two people here some Lubegard at my expense for testing because I don't have the time or resources to do so extensively myself.
> 
> 
> http://www.lubegard.se/docs/swissmotor_e.pdf
> 
> 
> Why don't you ask the half a dozen or so people in this very thread that use, and/or mentioned Lucas Semi Synthetic? Look it up on amazon and read the 4-5 star reviews. Are all these people shills? You must know something they don't. Call Lucas and tell them to stop their false advertising that how dare they claim you can have something designated as suitable for BOTH injection and premix applications.
> 
> http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil


You dont have to tell me about Lucas as Ive used plenty of it myself and hadnt had any problems but if u want to use injector oils or cheap oils knock yourself out as Ill pass. Makes absolutely no sense to even consider trying oil in the wrong application


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Okay, post proof then that a lower viscosity 2T oil always means that it's film strength must also decrease in proportion to it. You don't think that technology might have enabled the formulation of new lower viscosity 2t ester based oils that still have the film strength of higher viscosity synthetics?
> 
> I own, and have used, your favorite oil (M1R), which I made a concerted effort to get a hold of, partly based on your own findings and recommendations in posts about it years ago, so it's odd that you come off like you think I have any desire to compromise. Experimentation =/= compromise.
> 
> You can get it elsewhere with free shipping.


Prove it doesnt.
What you will find is that as viscosity goes down for a given fluid so does film strength.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Okay, post proof then that a lower viscosity 2T oil always means that it's film strength must also decrease in proportion to it. You don't think that technology might have enabled the formulation of new lower viscosity 2t ester based oils that still have the film strength of higher viscosity synthetics?
> 
> I own, and have used, your favorite oil (M1R), which I made a concerted effort to get a hold of, partly based on your own findings and recommendations in posts about it years ago, so it's odd that you come off like you think I have any desire to compromise. Experimentation =/= compromise.
> 
> You can get it elsewhere with free shipping.


And you are compromising wether you realize it or not using multi use and marine oils in a air cooled premix application.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> And you are compromising wether you realize it or not using multi use and marine oils in a air cooled premix application.





bwalker said:


> I have never seen Lucas mix oil, but from reading the spec sheet it seems like it should be good stuff for a air cooled saw.
> 
> http://retailers.lucasoil.com/administrator2/Manage_Products/MANAGE_PDFs/PDFs/Product_SPEC-29.pdf


Owned.


Stumpys Customs said:


> I've been useing Lucas simi-syn @ 40:1 for three years now and really like it.





WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Hey stump I didn't get a chance to ask have you opened up a saw to see how the carbon build up is?





Stumpys Customs said:


> Yep, both the 350 & 268 were opened recently & neither had any carbon built up.





KenJax Tree said:


> I don't worry about the numbers anymore, i'm gonna keep using Lucas semi-synthetic 32:1 if something grenades so be it.





westcoaster90 said:


> i'm pretty well convinced on the lucas. i've pulled many saws apart that had been running it now. even ones i tuned lean to the extreme and they still have a decent oil coat at 50:1. top of piston is also cleaner then running stihl ultra. bottom line is, the past statements of lucas leaving a top end dry is just flat out absolute BS made up by an H1R lover LOL.  i ran 50:1 in a 372 hutzl big bore ported for a month and the thing came apart with oil. no where near as much as 32:1 of course but there was oil all over everything and i think that is good enough.
> 
> http://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/lucas-semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil





workshop said:


> I've been running it for 4 years now, too. 32:1 with no issues at all.





Full Chisel said:


> I switched from Stihl Ultra 50:1 to Lucas semi-syn 40:1 this season and I have had no issues. Low smoke and it doesn't smell like burning plastic like the Ultra does.


----------



## KG441c

Ilmater said:


> Owned.


Point? Run it by the barrels if u want? Ive ran it in lawn equipment, saws, and dirt bikes with no issues. Why do u think supercross and motocross factory teams never ran tcw and injection oils?


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Owned.


I said it "seemed".. from quickly browsing a marketing sheet. I wasn't aware it was a dual use oil as I had never seen the stuff in person and had no intention of using it.
Use whatever the heck you want for all I care. Just don't go telling people that a oil ment for a boat or a scooter is as good as a dedicated air cooled oil.


----------



## KG441c




----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Just don't go telling people that a oil ment for a boat or a scooter is as good as a dedicated air cooled oil.


I didn't "tell" anyone to use anything, and none of the oils I mentioned in the list I made in response to blsnelling are meant exclusively for boats or scooters.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I don't believe that was ever confirmed?
> With that said, I would not use it if that's the case.


 I read it one their VP website.


----------



## president

blsnelling said:


> Are you done yet?  While I'm sold on running 32:1, I'm curious to see what you find.


Brian, My stihl dealer told me that the 066,&661s are still showing up
with broken cranks (post poly flywheel versions)and that all limiters should be removed
and low&hi screws fattened accordingly .I have mine set at 2&1/3 L and 1 high they are 
right tuned in wood for that .! 1 is a flat top decomp and the other is round top decomp
the low speed adjustement does affect H circuit .At 32 ;1 ? does this sound right to you?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I read it one their VP website.


I looked briefly this morning and couldn't find any reference to Motul. I find it odd that VP would use Motul given that they marketed their own two cycle oil at one time.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> I didn't "tell" anyone to use anything, and none of the oils I mentioned in the list I made in response to blsnelling are meant exclusively for boats or scooters.


Yes you did and sure they are. The only one I recognize as a dedicated pre mix oil is the Torco product. I don't believe Putoline is available in this country, Ipone has very limited distribution, Internet or otherwise. RP is a TCW 3 boat oil, zx-2 is a snowmobile oil as is Blue marble, lucas is a multi purpose oil, etc..


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Yes you did and sure they are. The only one I recognize as a dedicated pre mix oil is the Torco product. I don't believe Putoline is available in this country, Ipone has very limited distribution, Internet or otherwise. RP is a TCW 3 boat oil, zx-2 is a snowmobile oil as is Blue marble, lucas is a multi purpose oil, etc..


So you moved the goalposts of your rant from "boats and scooters" to include a bunch of other things that I never said anything about. Also, Royal Purple is listed as a multi-use oil, so you are wrong there as well. http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Purple-...42787208&sr=8-1&keywords=royal+purple+2+cycle


----------



## bwalker

It's a boat oil... and says so on the packaging.
The goal post was always..not a dedicated pre mix oil...
Again, why compromise? Why not just run the type of oil the OEM'S reccomend?


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> It's a boat oil... and says so on the packaging.
> The goal post was always..not a dedicated pre mix oil...
> Again, why compromise?








See where is says "multi-use" near the bottom? You made bunch of strawman statements. According to you, if everyone isn't using either Y2R/M1r/Motul 800/H1R/K2/R-50, they're compromising! Shame on anyone who doesn't use what you approve of.


----------



## Bwildered

Ilmater said:


> See where is says "multi-use" near the bottom? You made bunch of strawman statements. According to you, if everyone isn't using either Y2R/M1r/Motul 800/H1R/K2/R-50, they're compromising! Shame on anyone who doesn't use what you approve of.


And that's not even the half of it, after a while it's easy to tell when the righteous BS starts......................their lips move! LOL


----------



## Ilmater

Bwildered said:


> And that's not even the half of it, after a while it's easy to tell when the righteous BS starts......................their lips move! LOL


Anyone who disagrees with bwalker is automatically wrong and is trolling:


bwalker said:


> *Its not a double ester*, it's di-ester.





KenJax Tree said:


> I guess you missed the point of my post. With the 800 being double ester and the R50 being di ester i asked if that could be why they are 1 and 2 on the list here as far as flashpoint because of the esters. They're higher by a good margin. Thats all i asked





bwalker said:


> *There is no such thing as a double ester*.. They are higher because the lowest component in their blend ignites at higher temps. Flash point doesn't measure what you think it does and is mostly given for purposes of shipping and storage.





bwalker said:


> Probably because it's referee to as a diester..*not double*.





KenJax Tree said:


> View attachment 418276


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> See where is says "multi-use" near the bottom? You made bunch of strawman statements. According to you, if everyone isn't using either Y2R/M1r/Motul 800/H1R/K2/R-50, they're compromising! Shame on anyone who doesn't use what you approve of.


The exact same product was called RP TCW3 till recently... boat oil. And if yiur using boat oil in a chainsaw your making a compromise..
Troll...
I have always said use the right oil for the application... pretty simple..


----------



## bwalker

What you don't realize is multi use oils that are advertised as being able to be used in marine applications, like RP, are always ashless tcw3 type oils and as such are not suitable for chainsaw use. Husky even says as much in its owners manuals.


----------



## LowVolt




----------



## LowVolt

Dude that iPhone samurai oil has the coolest name. I am using that.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> What you don't realize is multi use oils that are advertised as being able to be used in marine applications, like RP, are always ashless tcw3 type oils *and as such are not suitable for chainsaw use*.



http://www.pennzoil.com/other-car-p...utboard-and-multi-purpose-2-cycle-engine-oil/

"PENNZOIL® PREMIUM OUTBOARD AND MULTI-PURPOSE 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL
Pennzoil® Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products *including chain saws*, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil.

Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. _Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products. Always follow the dilution ratio and oil performance level recommended in the owner’s manual. For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."



bwalker said:


> Husky even says as much in its owners manuals.


Lol, owners manuals also tell you to run a 50:1 fuel to oil ratio. Seems legit.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The exact same product was called RP TCW3 till recently... boat oil. And if yiur using boat oil in a chainsaw your making a compromise..
> Troll...
> I have always said use the right oil for the application... pretty simple..


Well that product (to your wonderment) must have been changed in some way! Obviously the oil companies haven't been stuck in the same time warp as you, nor have sent their chemical engineers on extended holidays where they don't have to do anymore R & D to make a better product to suit a wider range of applications, then have its new wider characteristics discussed on a website that has global participants & advertised for free because it's now the right oil for a new application.


----------



## Bwildered

↑
A
*Its not a double ester*, it's di-ester.
↑
I guess you missed the point of my post. With the 800 being double ester and the R50 being di ester i asked if that could be why they are 1 and 2 on the list here as far as flashpoint because of the esters. They're higher by a good margin. Thats all i asked
↑
*There is no such thing as a double ester*.. They are higher because the lowest component in their blend ignites at higher temps. Flash point doesn't measure what you think it does and is mostly given for purposes of shipping and storage.
↑
Probably because it's referee to as a diester..*not double*.
↑
View attachment 418276


There probably is no better example of a serial arguers theme, that combined with a hide like an elephant will provide hours of entertainment for them.
Now I'm not even a chemist, but common sense would tell anybody that a diester is a linked compound, & a double ester is two different esters which are not linked chemically.


----------



## Andyshine77

Most of the terms like Double Ester are simply for marketing, they mean little to nothing. Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) is one thing I like to look for in the top end race oils, but it's not the end all be all.


----------



## Ron660

Andyshine77 said:


> Most of the terms like Double Ester are simply for marketing, they mean little to nothing. Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) is one thing I like to look for in the top end race oils, but it's not the end all be all.


Same here. A 15cst looks better than an 8cst to me. That's one reason I went from stihl ultra to 800 off-road. Plus the feedback I was getting from AS members revealing lower end lubrication and cleanliness. I'm sure I already stated this a few hundred pages back.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> http://www.pennzoil.com/other-car-p...utboard-and-multi-purpose-2-cycle-engine-oil/
> 
> "PENNZOIL® PREMIUM OUTBOARD AND MULTI-PURPOSE 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL
> Pennzoil® Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products *including chain saws*, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil.
> 
> Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. _Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products. Always follow the dilution ratio and oil performance level recommended in the owner’s manual. For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."
> 
> 
> Lol, owners manuals also tell you to run a 50:1 fuel to oil ratio. Seems legit.


Boat oil... And just because an oil company says you can use it for everything under the sun doesn't mean you should. Especially when the OEM says you shouldn't use boat oil..


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Most of the terms like Double Ester are simply for marketing, they mean little to nothing. Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) is one thing I like to look for in the top end race oils, but it's not the end all be all.


Yes.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> ↑
> A
> *Its not a double ester*, it's di-ester.
> ↑
> I guess you missed the point of my post. With the 800 being double ester and the R50 being di ester i asked if that could be why they are 1 and 2 on the list here as far as flashpoint because of the esters. They're higher by a good margin. Thats all i asked
> ↑
> *There is no such thing as a double ester*.. They are higher because the lowest component in their blend ignites at higher temps. Flash point doesn't measure what you think it does and is mostly given for purposes of shipping and storage.
> ↑
> Probably because it's referee to as a diester..*not double*.
> ↑
> View attachment 418276
> View attachment 448546
> 
> There probably is no better example of a serial arguers theme, that combined with a hide like an elephant will provide hours of entertainment for them.
> Now I'm not even a chemist, but common sense would tell anybody that a diester is a linked compound, & a double ester is two different esters which are not linked chemically.


Making assumptions again? False ones at that. Have an Ensure and sink back into your senile fog.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Well that product (to your wonderment) must have been changed in some way! Obviously the oil companies haven't been stuck in the same time warp as you, nor have sent their chemical engineers on extended holidays where they don't have to do anymore R & D to make a better product to suit a wider range of applications, then have its new wider characteristics discussed on a website that has global participants & advertised for free because it's now the right oil for a new application.


Except it wasnt..it's still an ashless marine oil.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Making assumptions again? False ones at that. Have an Ensure and sink back into your senile fog.


Not at all, I'd be a wacker like you if if I did that. You make claims but never back ANYTHING up to support your claims
Here's some quotes backing up that you know jack about the subject
"The double ester trade name meant Motul contains both di-esters and polyol-ester base oils."
"Improved and reinforced formula based on 2 different Esters in order to provide outstanding lubrication under highly stringent......"


----------



## bwalker

I state facts... you idiots make claims. There is a differance.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Except it wasnt..it's still an ashless marine oil.


Your the only one saying that & there are federal laws in every nation globally that prohibit false advertising, it's advertised as a multi purpose oil & if it's unable to do what it claims the penalties are massive, would they take the risk relabelling the old product without changing the formula, I doubt it! Would some goose make a pea brained claim saying otherwise, you bet!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Your the only one saying that & there are federal laws in every nation globally that prohibit false advertising, it's advertised as a multi purpose oil & if it's unable to do what it claims the penalties are massive, would they take the risk relabelling the old product without changing the formula, I doubt it! Would some goose make a pea brained claim saying otherwise, you bet!


Serious? Remember Slick 50? 
It's boat oil, do the leg work...


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I state facts... you idiots make claims. There is a differance.


Your running off at the mouth again & haven't backed up your facts with any evidence.
Now I would be a complete idiot to believe the rubbish you come out with sometimes.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Serious? Remember Slick 50?
> It's boat oil, do the leg work...


It looks like you may have absorbed to much slick 50 through the palms of your hands & it has affected your reading skills like the rest of the product information which you seem to not be able to absorb. LOL
I've never heard of slick 50 but from what it seems to have done for you, I'll stay well away from it!
I'm in wonderment that one of these companies hasn't chased you down & nailed you for libel against their products yet.

http://www.pennzoil.com/other-car-p...utboard-and-multi-purpose-2-cycle-engine-oil/

"PENNZOIL® PREMIUM OUTBOARD *AND* MULTI-PURPOSE 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL
Pennzoil® Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products *including chain saws*, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil.

Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. _Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products. Always follow the dilution ratio and oil performance level recommended in the owner’s manual. For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."


----------



## KG441c

Like the article I posted said air cooled premix and injection oils are 2 different things. I wouldnt use the Penzoil in my saws but thats me. Guess any of these companies will claim anything but for sure is they arent gonna cover your equipment if you burn it up!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Your running off at the mouth again & haven't backed up your facts with any evidence.
> Now I would be a complete idiot to believe the rubbish you come out with sometimes.


Funny coming from you...


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> It looks like you may have absorbed to much slick 50 through the palms of your hands & it has affected your reading skills like the rest of the product information which you seem to not be able to absorb. LOL
> I've never heard of slick 50 but from what it seems to have done for you, I'll stay well away from it!
> I'm in wonderment that one of these companies hasn't chased you down & nailed you for libel against their products yet.
> 
> http://www.pennzoil.com/other-car-p...utboard-and-multi-purpose-2-cycle-engine-oil/
> 
> "PENNZOIL® PREMIUM OUTBOARD *AND* MULTI-PURPOSE 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL
> Pennzoil® Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products *including chain saws*, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil.
> 
> Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. _Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products. Always follow the dilution ratio and oil performance level recommended in the owner’s manual. For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."


Just because they say you can, doesn't mean you can and not by a long shot. HUSKY specifically says not to use boat oils...


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Like the article I posted said air cooled premix and injection oils are 2 different things. I wouldnt use the Penzoil in my saws but thats me. Guess any of these companies will claim anything but for sure is they arent gonna cover your equipment if you burn it up!


A fact lost on these numb skulls...


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Just because they say you can, doesn't mean you can and not by a long shot. HUSKY specifically says not to use boat oils...


Of course you can, besides its a multi purpose oil & you haven't provided any credentials to give you any credibility about anything you spout


----------



## bwalker

Again, a fact lost on you numb skulls...

Muti purpose oils are boat oils that they say can be used in other applications. You can run them, you can run corn oil if you like. However they are not the correct oil for the application and are not the OEM reccomended type of oil .


----------



## Trx250r180

Anyone notice that Yamalube pours out of the bottle similar to stihl mix's viscosity ,and some of the higher priced stuff pours out slower ? Is Yamalube a borderline injector mix ?I have heard of guys running it in snowmobiles ,and i believe they have oil injection on some of them .Or is that a different Yamalube ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Anyone notice that Yamalube pours out of the bottle similar to stihl mix's viscosity ,and some of the higher priced stuff pours out slower ? Is Yamalube a borderline injector mix ?I have heard of guys running it in snowmobiles ,and i believe they have oil injection on some of them .Or is that a different Yamalube ?


Yamalube makes an injector oil called 2S. 2R is the premix product.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Yamalube makes an injector oil called 2S. 2R is the premix product.


Thanks Ben ,i thought there must be a difference .


----------



## the_old_curmudgeon

Ilmater said:


> http://www.pennzoil.com/other-car-p...utboard-and-multi-purpose-2-cycle-engine-oil/
> 
> "PENNZOIL® PREMIUM OUTBOARD AND MULTI-PURPOSE 2-CYCLE ENGINE OIL
> Pennzoil® Premium Outboard and Multi-Purpose 2-Cycle Engine Oil is a high-performance 2-cycle engine oil meeting or exceeding the warranty requirements of all leading manufacturers of 2-cycle products *including chain saws*, lawn mowers, motorcycles and string trimmers, as well as outboard engines made by: Johnson/Evinrude, Mercury Marine, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Force/US Marine, Mariner, Sears and all other manufacturers requiring NMMA TC-W3® oil.
> 
> Recommended for pre-mix, injector systems and direct injection systems. _Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products. Always follow the dilution ratio and oil performance level recommended in the owner’s manual. For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."
> 
> 
> Lol, owners manuals also tell you to run a 50:1 fuel to oil ratio. Seems legit.



Per the Husqvarna 365XT/372XP manual, only if you're running Husky-branded oil,. XP and Low Smoke were both JASO FD-certified oils. If not using a Husky-branded oil (they're blended and distributed by Spectrum IIRC), use a JASO FB (minimum) rated oil at 32:1. Their manuals explicitly say to not use outboard oil. 

_"Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products."
"For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."

I don't know of any chainsaw manufacturers that recommend using TC-W3 or the earlier TC-W standards. Maybe someone here does know.


----------



## bwalker

the_old_curmudgeon said:


> Per the Husqvarna 365XT/372XP manual, only if you're running Husky-branded oil,. XP and Low Smoke were both JASO FD-certified oils. If not using a Husky-branded oil (they're blended and distributed by Spectrum IIRC), use a JASO FB (minimum) rated oil at 32:1. Their manuals explicitly say to not use outboard oil.
> 
> _"Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products."
> "For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."
> 
> I don't know of any chainsaw manufacturers that recommend using TC-W3 or the earlier TC-W standards. Maybe someone here does know.


Years ago some snowmobile companies reccomend tcw3 marine oils with pretty disastrous results. I have never seen a chainsaw MFG reccomend boat oil which is also known as universal oil..


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Lol, owners manuals also tell you to run a 50:1 fuel to oil ratio. Seems legit.


Missed this gem.. and again that's not true either...


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Just because they say you can, doesn't mean you can and not by a long shot..




You also said "Muti purpose oils are boat oils that they say can be used in other applications. You can run them, you can run corn oil if you like."

I'm glad we got that all cleared up


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> You also said "Muti purpose oils are boat oils that they say can be used in other applications. You can run them, you can run corn oil if you like."
> 
> I'm glad we got that all cleared up


Multi purpose oils are boat oils.. they are the completely wrong oils for a saw application. Stihl actually forbids the use of them in their manuals. But like I said, since your sights are set on culdom have at it.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Right out of my 562xp manual the Jonnysorehead 2260 says the exact same thing


----------



## Bwildered

the_old_curmudgeon said:


> Per the Husqvarna 365XT/372XP manual, only if you're running Husky-branded oil,. XP and Low Smoke were both JASO FD-certified oils. If not using a Husky-branded oil (they're blended and distributed by Spectrum IIRC), use a JASO FB (minimum) rated oil at 32:1. Their manuals explicitly say to not use outboard oil.
> 
> _"Good for water-cooled and air-cooled 2-cycle engines_ recommending NMMA TC-W3® products."
> "For any use where NMMA TC-W3® , TC-W II® or TC-W® oil is recommended."
> 
> I don't know of any chainsaw manufacturers that recommend using TC-W3 or the earlier TC-W standards. Maybe someone here does know.


I'd stick to that recommendation from the manufacturer, but it makes no reference to multipurpose oils
Fansk


----------



## KG441c

Why not use the proper oil instead of a multi purpose?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I'd stick to that recommendation from the manufacturer, but it makes no reference to multipurpose oils
> Fansk


Multi purpose oils are boat oils formulation wise. Stihl specifically says no multi purpose oils!


----------



## bwalker

STIHL:


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I'd stick to that recommendation from the manufacturer, but it makes no reference to multipurpose oils
> Fansk


Tcw3 cert is a boat oil, so yes it does.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Multi purpose oils are boat oils.. they are the completely wrong oils for a saw application. Stihl actually forbids the use of them in their manuals. But like I said, since your sights are set on culdom have at it.


So does husky


bwalker said:


> Multi purpose oils are boat oils formulation wise. Stihl specifically says no multi purpose oils!


Multipurpose oils are oils that can be used in boats, this that & the other.
I'd like to see you back up that statement with some facts about Stihl saying that multipurpose oils can't be used, none of my owners manuals say that, in fact I'd say your typically running off at the mouth again, this is stihls recommended advice
*Need to mix fuel for your STIHL 2-Stroke engine?*
You'll need STIHL 2 Stroke oil, an empty and clean fuel can & fresh unleaded fuel from a reputable petrol station.
Mix at 50:1 (20mls oil per 1 litre fuel) when you're using STIHL 2-Stroke oil.

*Using a different brand of 2-Stroke oil?*
You'll need to mix at 25:1 (40mls oil per 1 litre fuel)
Petrol has limited shelf life (as low as 30 days), so always mix with fresh regular unleaded, purchased from a reputable large volume fuel supplier.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> So does husky
> 
> Multipurpose oils are oils that can be used in boats, this that & the other.
> I'd like to see you back up that statement with some facts about Stihl saying that multipurpose oils can't be used, none of my owners manuals say that, in fact I'd say your typically running off at the mouth again, this is stihls recommended advice
> *Need to mix fuel for your STIHL 2-Stroke engine?*
> You'll need STIHL 2 Stroke oil, an empty and clean fuel can & fresh unleaded fuel from a reputable petrol station.
> Mix at 50:1 (20mls oil per 1 litre fuel) when you're using STIHL 2-Stroke oil.
> 
> *Using a different brand of 2-Stroke oil?*
> You'll need to mix at 25:1 (40mls oil per 1 litre fuel)
> Petrol has limited shelf life (as low as 30 days), so always mix with fresh regular unleaded, purchased from a reputable large volume fuel supplier.


Your speaking from complete ignorance.. multi purpose oils are boat oils from a formulation standpoint.. The Penzoil product you posted the link for is actually MMA or Marine Mfgs Associated certified TCw-3 or two cycle water cooled-3


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Tcw3 cert is s boat oil, so yes it does..v


The multipurpose oil in question can be used where that oil is specified


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Your speaking from complete ignorance.. multi purpose oils are boat oils from a formulation standpoint.. The Penzoil product you posted the link for is actually MMA or Marine Mfgs Associated certified TCw-3 or two cycle water cooled-3


Why don't you show us the rest of the stihl owners manual & we will see if it refers to a chainsaw. You insulting wanker


----------



## bwalker

And that's not in a saw, genius..


----------



## Bwildered

Can't produce the goods again! Who would have thought! Was that page from a stihl brush cutter with a 4mix engine? Ha Ha Ha what a fool


----------



## KG441c

How about the k2? Seems alota folks been using it. Kenjax I know you use alota oil so have you been using K2?


----------



## Andyshine77

So is Bwalker arguing with Bwalker?? me thinks so.


----------



## Ron660

States suitable for oil injector or premix....direct injection or carburetor.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 448713
> 
> 
> States suitable for oil injector or premix....direct injection or carburetor.


That's not a boat oil, but I still won't use it.


----------



## Ilmater

Ilmater said:


> Lol, owners manuals also tell you to run a 50:1 fuel to oil ratio. Seems legit.





bwalker said:


> *Missed this gem.. and again that's not true either...*





bwalker said:


> STIHL:View attachment 448700


*LOL:* "We recommend STIHL *50:1* two-stroke engine oil..."

So you can pick and choose what OEM directions you want to ignore (because we know you wouldn't run 50:1)...


Bwildered said:


> The multipurpose oil in question can be used where that oil is specified


Don't forget about the evil, low viscosity (7.5 [email protected]) injection oils unsuitable for chainsaws:


cuttinties said:


> Here's one I just pulled the muffler off of for you. This paticular saw has been tuned to 17,200 running the oil above at 32:1 with a piston that's 26 years old with no air filter


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> The multipurpose oil in question can be used where that oil is specified


And that's not in a saw, genius. .


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> *LOL:* "We recommend STIHL *50:1* two-stroke engine oil..."
> 
> So you can pick and choose what OEM directions you want to ignore (because we know you wouldn't run 50:1)...
> 
> Don't forget about the evil, low viscosity (7.5 [email protected]) injection oils unsuitable for chainsaws:


Husky says 33:1 without their oil, which is what I am doing. Feeble attempt.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> So is Bwalker arguing with Bwalker?? me thinks so.


The quote button barber chaired on me..


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Husky says 33:1 without their oil, which is what I am doing. Feeble attempt.


Nice deflection--you posted OEM info from STIHL, and your response to realizing you falsely accused me of making an untrue statement is by changing the subject onto Husky. Hahahahahaha.


----------



## Trx250r180

this is from my 461 manual ,there is whole page dedicated to the flippy cap also


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> That's not a boat oil, but I still won't use it.


I was revealing Motul's recommendation of either injector systems or premix for 710. I remember reading earlier a reference not to use an oil designed for direct injection in carburetors.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Nice deflection--you posted OEM info from STIHL, and your response to realizing you falsely accused me of making an untrue statement is by changing the subject onto Husky. Hahahahahaha.


Stihl only says to use a 50:1 ratio with their oil, and doesn't make a ratio recommendation for the use of other SUITABLE oils.. So, it's not a deflection at all.
I just quoted what you said...


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I was revealing Motul's recommendation of either injector systems or premix for 710. I remember reading earlier a reference not to use an oil designed for direct injection in carburetors.


You certainly can, and 710 is a good oil, but I will not use an injector oil in a pre mix application.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> this is from my 461 manual ,there is whole page dedicated to the flippy cap also View attachment 448723
> View attachment 448724
> View attachment 448727


Must be from a a 4mix brush cutter...lmfao.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You certainly can, and 710 is a good oil, but I will not use an injector oil in a pre mix application.


What damage or issue would occur if I used 710 in my saws?


----------



## bwalker

It certainly won't damage your equipment, I just chose to use dedicated pre mix oils. The thinner fluids can protect less or contribute to deposits due to excessive use of solvents.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> K2, R50, Mobil while I have it.


Mike, I remember reading you tried Motul 710. What is your conclusion compared to the above referenced oils?


----------



## bwalker

I you want to run Motul, why not just use 800T?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> It certainly won't damage your equipment, I just chose to use dedicated pre mix oils. The thinner fluids can protect less or contribute to deposits due to excessive use of solvents.


Thinner fluids defined as lower viscosities?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I you want to run Motul, why not just use 800T?


I've been using 800 off-road with good success but was considering a lower viscosity, like "chainsaw" labeled oils, to see if I get better performance. Motul 710 has a lower viscosity like Stihl and Yamalube.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> Mike, I remember reading you tried Motul 710. What is your conclusion compared to the above referenced oils?


710 worked fine. It's not as thick but it left a great coating behind.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Thinner fluids defined as lower viscosities?


Yes.
I've not ran 710, but actually am using some 800 on a limited basis. I am not overly impressed with it thus far. It's far from bad oil though. I just think it's more suited to a saw that's used to mill.
Yamalube 2R is a dedicated premix oil,.although it's not overly thick. I like it and it's worked well for me for a long time. It also has a very long track record in a variety of sports. It's never a bad choice.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> 710 worked fine. It's not as thick but it left a great coating behind.


Dave, not to beat on you because you make a valuable contribution to this site. However, residual oil is heavily influenced by ratio and how the engine was running when shut down. Let a engine idle for a bit before it's shut down and it will be full of oil. Cut brush all day and the same thing will happen.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Dave, not to beat on you because you make a valuable contribution to this site. However, residual oil is heavily influenced by ratio and how the engine was running when shut down. Let a engine idle for a bit before it's shut down and it will be full of oil. Cut brush all day and the same thing will happen.


True. When I was running it I tried it in a ported 660. If I remember right I was in lots of big wood that time from storms. Running a 42" bar on it.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> And that's not in a saw, genius. .


If I was a true genius I would be libelling a manufacturers product.


----------



## bwalker

I think that suit would get dismissed pretty quick when a Stihl or Husky owners manual was admitted as evidence..


----------



## KG441c




----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


>


Can't fix stupid, eh Kg..


----------



## Ron660

a*+ b*= c*
710*+ 800* = K2??


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I think that suit would get dismissed pretty quick when a Stihl or Husky owners manual was admitted as evidence..


I certainly hope you get the opportunity to plead your case.
It could get interesting when they ( the oil co ) produce their testing evidence of running their particular oil in those particular manufacturers saws verses a blanket statement from a manufacturer who couldn't care less what you were being sued for, you would need really deep pockets to subpoena the saw manufacturers testing proof against that individual particular oil if they had any testing done which showed contrary results from the oil manufacturers results


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> a*+ b*= c*
> 710*+ 800* = K2??


K2 is good stuff if you can stomach the price. Works real well in my stuff.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I certainly hope you get to plead your case.


Don't hold your breath.. Hint, stating facts isn't libel...


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> a*+ b*= c*
> 710*+ 800* = K2??


Lol!! Think Ill have a cup of Community coffee and read my Colt -An American Legend book for awhile


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Can't fix stupid, eh Kg..


I dont know if there is a right anwser anymore. I do know what I will and wont use in my $$$$ ported saws though. Boat oil aint goin in mine!! Lol


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I dont know if there is a right anwser anymore. I do know what I will and wont use in my $$$$ ported saws though. Boat oil aint goin in mine!! Lol


There is always a right answer. Boat oil in boats, air cooled oil in saws.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> I dont know if there is a right anwser anymore. I do know what I will and wont use in my $$$$ ported saws though. Boat oil aint goin in mine!! Lol


I could use a 223 to hunt deer too but I'll stick with my 7STW.


----------



## KG441c

What kinda oil goes in here? Direct, multi, air cooled, or boat?


----------



## Deets066

Man this oil thread is hard to keep up with! Every time I look there's another 6 pages lol


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Lol!! Think Ill have a cup of Community coffee and read my Colt -An American Legend book for awhile


That's what I'm drinking made from a camping style percolator. Mounting an old Weaver K4 scope on my Win 22 mag lever getting ready for squirrel season. 22 mag is a little overkill for squirrels just like 800 off-road is for firewood cutting chainsaws. They both get the job done though.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> What kinda oil goes in here? Direct, multi, air cooled, or boat?View attachment 448736


Lead-based


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> How about the k2? Seems alota folks been using it. Kenjax I know you use alota oil so have you been using K2?


I've burned lots of K2 and is probably the best oil i've used in any application but the price keeps me from using it all the time.
Still using HP2 40:1 with great results.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Lead-based


!! Stihl/Husky????? Heck withem!!! Colt/Winchester!!!


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I've burned lots of K2 and is probably the best oil i've used in any application but the price keeps me from using it all the time.
> Still using HP2 40:1 with great results.


Ive used lots of that too and liked it also. Thanks for the input as I know you and Mdavlee run alota oil so im interested in yalls opinions


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> I've burned lots of K2 and is probably the best oil i've used in any application but the price keeps me from using it all the time.
> Still using HP2 40:1 with great results.


I might try K2 since I'm almost out of 800 off-road. If you and Mike recommend it I'm in. That's better than a JASO-FD rating.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> What kinda oil goes in here? Direct, multi, air cooled, or boat?View attachment 448736


Where's the rear sights? Lol


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Where's the rear sights? Lol


1873 improvisation sight


----------



## Ilmater

Andyshine77 said:


> *Some of us like to try different oils just because.*


This is exactly the point I've been trying to make the entire time. Good to see someone with some long standing, established credibility shares the same view.


----------



## KG441c

http://www.amazon.com/Maxima-22964-Formula-2-Stroke-Synthetic/dp/B000GZV2ZG


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> 1873 improvisation sight


It worked for Wyatt Earp and Will Bill


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> It worked for Wyatt Earp and Will Bill


It might get the job done for a Missouri boat ride too!!


----------



## blsnelling

Someone please slap me. This thread was locked weeks ago, and I petitioned that it be unlocked. What was I thinking?!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

This thread is like a car accident, you just gotta slow down and keep looking.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> Someone please slap me. This thread was locked weeks ago, and I petitioned that it be unlocked. What was I thinking?!!!


Brad, I'm still learning.


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> Brad, I'm still learning.


That's what I was afraid of!


----------



## KG441c

Brad this thread is like that 661 muffler mod as it needs the stock cover back on it!!! Lol!!


----------



## Ilmater

Ron660 said:


> I might try K2 since I'm almost out of 800 off-road. If you and Mike recommend it I'm in. That's better than a JASO-FD rating.


I'd like to see this oil tested:




http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/lbg-12932/overview/

And:

http://www.arlingtonpower.com/Kawasaki-2-6oz-2-Cycle-Fuel-Mix-p/120-999696-082.htm

Multi-Purpose 2-cycle oils: How is this possible?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2714912&page=all


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ilmater said:


> I'd like to see this oil tested:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/lbg-12932/overview/
> 
> And:
> 
> http://www.arlingtonpower.com/Kawasaki-2-6oz-2-Cycle-Fuel-Mix-p/120-999696-082.htm
> 
> Multi-Purpose 2-cycle oils: How is this possible?
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2714912&page=all



I don't think you should use a TC-W3 oil in a chainsaw should you? I think i read somewhere you shouldn't.


----------



## Ilmater

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't think you should use a TC-W3 oil in a chainsaw should you? I think i read somewhere you shouldn't.


Technically, no, *but in my opinion*, knowing about Lubegard's reputation from some of their other products (i.e. Lubegard Red ATF protectant), and the chemistry behind their Liquid Wax Ester, I believe that their tc-w3 oil (which they say can be used in air cooled engines as well) would protect as well as dedicated air cooled oils. 

http://www.lubegard.com/LXE.aspx


> Formulating LXE, a direct synthetic replacement to Sperm Whale oil
> 
> Liquid Wax Ester (LXE®) was first developed and patented as a synthetic replacement for sperm whale oil. The structure and performance of LXE is similar to that of natural sperm whale oil, and is one of the world's largest known ester chains. The synthetic ester has a structure that binds the molecules together tightly, thus allowing flow at low temperatures while maintaining oxidative stability. Because it has very little unsaturation, it is much more stable than many other synthetic molecules.
> 
> So how, exactly is LXE made? Glad you asked.
> LXE Technology is bio-based, and composed of the fatty acid of a high erucic acid containing seed oil esterified with an expensive and rare alcohol. The process demands that we use the highest purity essential oils, with long fatty chain triglyceride ester groups and with little or no unsaturation (which if present, would lead to oxidative instability).
> 
> Some LUBEGARD products with LXE Technology also use a phosphorous material, whereby the compound reacts at metal surfaces and forms a strong bond, great for use as an anti-wear additive and friction modifier which is also very effective and efficient for slow sliding speeds.
> 
> An organic sulphur compound is also used in various products. This is what gives the distinct odor of some LUBEGARD Products. The phosphorous-sulphur combination enhances the anti-wear properties of the phosphorus for additional performance and protection. The esters serve as a lubricant and an antioxidant, which prevents air from reacting with hydrocarbons and converting them to sludge and dirt.
> 
> And of course, the LXE molecule and its’ derivative molecules are then incorporated into various functional formulations or products that are perfect for industries such as automotive, marine, power equipment, essentially any motorized system where heat, oxidation, wear, and acid buildup could occur.
> 
> Interestingly enough, ILI’s unique synthetic LXE Technology is proven to actually outperform the sperm whale oil additives. Independent third party testing by OEM fluid laboratories prove LXE Technology reduces component wear by at least 50%, reduces oxygen uptake, which leads to oxidation by 30% and reduces pentane insolubles (sludge) by 60% when added to GM® factory fill. (Reference oil for DEXRON® approval).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Unique Difference*
> It’s at the molecular level that lubricants are different. Blending of various components allows their molecular structures to translate to the characteristics needed to fight oxidation, heat build-up, converter chatter, etc. LXE functions primarily to remove heat from frictional surfaces which can see surface temperatures in automatic transmissions of more than 300 degrees Fahrenheit. LXE absorbs the heat from internal metal surfaces and transfers that heat to the outer metal surface where it is dissipated.
> 
> *Removes Heat *
> LUBEGARD esters are most famous for their “heat sink” abilities. Heat sink is the absorption of heat generated at frictional surfaces, such as gears, or gear teeth into the oil phase. In mechanical systems, heat is absorbed from the frictional surface through the bulk oil (whether it’s synthetic or mineral), and is carried to and discharged through the container walls. For example, in an automatic transmission, the heat is carried and discharged to the outer metal housing and cooling system. When two metal surfaces come in close contact, they compress the oil molecules between the metal surfaces at the metal-oil interface. The friction generated at that interface generates heat (just like when you rub your hands together - you feel frictional heat on your skin). When LUBEGARD LXE®(Liquid Wax Ester)Technology is present in the oil, its molecules are adsorbed onto the internal metal surfaces soaking up the heat and transferring it to the bulk oil from the metal surfaces. The oil and LXE molecules containing the heat are then dispersed to the external metal housing where it is dissipated to the atmosphere (surroundings). Other competing additives can actually trap in excess heat in critical functional areas - likely resulting in failures.
> 
> *Superior Lubrication*
> 
> *HYDRODYNAMIC LUBRICATION:* Lubrication systems where moving surfaces are actually separated by an oil film, preventing all metal contact. This is also referred to as “full film” lubrication. In other words; when metal surfaces do not ever touch each other. In a mechanical assembly the viscosity of the fluid impacts the fluid film. That's why using the right additive is crucial! The movement of metal surfaces creates friction between the surfaces. LXE molecules actually REMOVE the heat and transport it to the outer core, thereby shielding, or protecting the internal components.
> *
> BOUNDARY LUBRICATION: *Conditions that do not permit the formation of lubricant film. In other words, areas where surfaces actually touch. As in metal to metal contact.
> The molecular makeup of LXE Technology provides a very long chain of carbon atoms and contains carbon-oxygen bonds. The oxygen atom is strongly attracted to metal surfaces. Advantageously, when the LXE molecules are heated in internal critical components, the release of the atoms carry the heat outward in a spiral centrifugal force (similar to spinning a toy top in a puddle of water) and transfers it harmlessly to the outer metal case. LUBEGARD LXE molecules actually attach to the metal surfaces - and then are released (instead of scraping or scoring the metal) and instantly reform again, then are released again, reforms, released again and continues to reform/release indefinitely.
> *
> The Unique Results*
> 
> 
> Only LXE Technology has been approved, endorsed, recommended and used by OEM’s.
> 
> LUBEGARD products with LXE Technology have eight service bulletins from the OEM’s, which tell their dealerships to use a specific
> LUBEGARD product to fix a specific problem. There is no other competing product that can make that claim.
> 
> LUBEGARD products are currently recommended and endorsed by the largest transmission repair chains: AAMCO®, Cottman® and LeeMyles®.
> LUBEGARD has been awarded the most TOP SHOP PRODUCTS and TOP TOOL Awards by professional transmission technicians year after year.
> ILI was awarded the prestigious ‘Product of the Year’ award for its proprietary LXE Technology from Lubricants World.
> 
> ILI's ground-breaking research has led to research grants in excess of $2 million from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the Department of Defense and the Soy Bean Board. Today, LUBEGARD Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant is the number one product used in the professional transmission rebuild industry, and the only product of its kind to be used and approved by major automobile manufacturers (OEM’s).
> 
> International Lubricants, Inc. has been granted a total of over 100 U.S. and foreign patents and their research efforts ensure that they remain on the cutting edge of new product development and product improvements.


----------



## Ron660

Ilmater said:


> I'd like to see this oil tested:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/lbg-12932/overview/
> 
> And:
> 
> http://www.arlingtonpower.com/Kawasaki-2-6oz-2-Cycle-Fuel-Mix-p/120-999696-082.htm
> 
> Multi-Purpose 2-cycle oils: How is this possible?
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2714912&page=all


Liquid wax ester....that's a new one


----------



## Ilmater

Ron660 said:


> Liquid wax ester....that's a new one





> The liquid wax esters are esters synthesized from rapeseed acids and special alcohols.
> 
> They appear to have four advantages:
> 
> 1. Aid in friction reduction,
> 2. have low-level anti-wear capabilities
> 3. aid in cleaning
> 4. are very stable in terms of resisting hydrolytic degradation.


^ That post is from MolaKule, a legit PH.D. Tribologist on bobistheoilguy.com
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3565527/2

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4510093.html
*Synthetic liquid wax esters*
United States Patent 4510093

Abstract:
A synthetic unsaturated wax ester prepared from unsaturated carboxylic acids of 18 to 22 carbon atoms and unsaturated fatty alcohols of 12 to 22 carbon atoms is proposed as a substitute for jojoba oil.

https://www.google.co.in/patents/US4152278
Wax esters of vegetable oil fatty acids useful as lubricants
US 4152278 A
ABSTRACT
Wax esters are prepared entirely from acids obtained from hydrogenated vegetable oils. Fatty alcohols, prepared by hydrogenolysis of the fatty acids, are esterified with the fatty acids to yield the wax esters. These esters have properties similar to those of sperm whale oil and are useful as lubricant compositions. The sulfurized wax esters are useful as extreme pressure lubricant additives.


----------



## Ron660

Ilmater said:


> ^ That post is from MolaKule, a legit PH.D. Tribologist on bobistheoilguy.com
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3565527/2
> 
> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4510093.html
> *Synthetic liquid wax esters*
> United States Patent 4510093
> 
> Abstract:
> A synthetic unsaturated wax ester prepared from unsaturated carboxylic acids of 18 to 22 carbon atoms and unsaturated fatty alcohols of 12 to 22 carbon atoms is proposed as a substitute for jojoba oil.
> 
> https://www.google.co.in/patents/US4152278
> Wax esters of vegetable oil fatty acids useful as lubricants
> US 4152278 A
> ABSTRACT
> Wax esters are prepared entirely from acids obtained from hydrogenated vegetable oils. Fatty alcohols, prepared by hydrogenolysis of the fatty acids, are esterified with the fatty acids to yield the wax esters. These esters have properties similar to those of sperm whale oil and are useful as lubricant compositions. The sulfurized wax esters are useful as extreme pressure lubricant additives.


Language at the bottom of the label looks like it's approved for marine applications.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ron660 said:


> Language at the bottom of the label looks like it's approved for marine applications.


Its also dangerous to drink it and kids cannot play with it[emoji52]


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> Its also dangerous to drink it and kids cannot play with it[emoji52]


I didn't see the JASO-FD certification.


----------



## Ilmater

Ron660 said:


> I didn't see the JASO-FD certification.


They probably didn't want to spend the money to get it certified.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Don't hold your breath.. Hint, stating facts isn't libel...


Hahahaha have you read what you said, you could have found your true skill in life, a legal crash test dummy! Don't worry though, they will only come after you if you are of adult age & have lots of assets they can relieve you of.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

this week im burning motul 800 off road at 50:1 in my stuff i bet it will like it.


----------



## porsche965

Just how much does it cost to certify an oil?


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Just how much does it cost to certify an oil?


40,000 Yen


----------



## porsche965

Off the top of my head that's about $33,000. Cheap.


----------



## KG441c

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...4/?temp_hash=7cc797b00b7b052406cc7353657d444c


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Off the top of my head that's about $33,000. Cheap.


Or $320 US?


----------



## KG441c

The download is the guideline standards a person wishing to certify their product has to meet and the procedure to follow for certifications. Ive seen very few oils that actually have the Jaso certification which is identified by a large square box with the certified rating inside the box. This crap companies put on the bottle that says meets or exceeds Jaso is their own doing. There is a Jaso list of oils on Jasos website and if the oil isnt on it the product hasnt passed certification or the persons formulating the product chose not to participate


----------



## KG441c

From my understanding if a product has true certification from JASO, the packaging will display as follows


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Technically, no, *but in my opinion*, knowing about Lubegard's reputation from some of their other products (i.e. Lubegard Red ATF protectant), and the chemistry behind their Liquid Wax Ester, I believe that their tc-w3 oil (which they say can be used in air cooled engines as well) would protect as well as dedicated air cooled oils.
> 
> http://www.lubegard.com/LXE.aspx


You shouldn't use boat oil in a chainsaw..


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Off the top of my head that's about $33,000. Cheap.


Alot of companies make claims...


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> They probably didn't want to spend the money to get it certified.


Because it probably wouldn't pass given it appears to be a ashless boat oil.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I certainly hope you get the opportunity to plead your case.
> It could get interesting when they ( the oil co ) produce their testing evidence of running their particular oil in those particular manufacturers saws verses a blanket statement from a manufacturer who couldn't care less what you were being sued for, you would need really deep pockets to subpoena the saw manufacturers testing proof against that individual particular oil if they had any testing done which showed contrary results from the oil manufacturers results


Your living in fantasy land..pop another ensure and change your diaper.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> This is exactly the point I've been trying to make the entire time. Good to see someone with some long standing, established credibility shares the same view.


Its actually not..your advocating the use of boat oils. ANDY is smart enough to use the correct type oils. I think all of us have tried a variety of stuff.


----------



## Moparmyway

There was a thread here recently............. 661 ran on TCW-3 oil and just burned its second piston


----------



## KG441c

I think I need a new bilge pump on my saw or my bilge pump needs a port job!!


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> There was a thread here recently............. 661 ran on TCW-3 oil and just burned its second piston


Was it dedicated TCW-3 oil or a multipurpose oil that can be used where a TCW-3 is specified?


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> this week im burning motul 800 off road at 50:1 in my stuff i bet it will like it.


I bet it doesn't really know the difference


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Was it dedicated TCW-3 oil or a multipurpose oil that can be used where a TCW-3 is specified?


Multi purpose oils are tcw3 oils....
I challenge you to find one "multi purpose oil that is certified for use in a air cooled engine. I am talking actually certified, not claimed to meet or some such none sense.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Because it probably wouldn't pass given it appears to be a ashless boat oil.





bwalker said:


> Multi purpose oils are tcw3 oils....
> I challenge you to find one "multi purpose oil that is certified for use in a air cooled engine. I am talking actually certified, not claimed to meet or some such none sense.


Oh looky here, TC-W3 oils that were tested have passed JASO FD as well:











> This premium, power valve friendly, synthetic lubricant has been providing racers and enthusiasts with the best protection available for over three decades. The smoke-free formula and great smell will ensure that the riders behind you will enjoy the quality of Klotz® as much as you're enjoying the performance benefits. Exceeds *NMMA TC-W3®, JASO FD(#236), ISO-EGD and API TC* low ash specifications for certified warranty compliance in Ski Doo®, Polaris®, Yamaha®, and Arctic Cat® Snowmobiles. Not alcohol compatible.





Miles86 said:


> Hi:
> 
> Like the others said, you want an oil thats designed for higher temps and states OK for air cooled 2 strokes. There are ash free and low ash oils that are made for air cooled , *unlike the old days were ash free was only for water cooled. Ash free modern oils give less deposits.* I like this one - actually removes old varnish from the inside of the engine and is great for engines that may sit for long periods (rust control).
> 
> Mystik Store - Mystik&reg; JT-4&reg; Ultimate High Performance 2-Cycle Engine Oil - Product Details
> 
> (Also includes a fuel stabilizer)
> 
> Can use in any 2 stroke- snowmobile to weed wacker.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Oh looky here, TC-W3 oils that were tested have passed JASO FD as well:


The first oil isn't certified at all, it says "meets" tcw3. It doesn't claim to meet any other standard. It does list several standards ,but makes no claim .Klotz is FD certified, but doesn't claim to be tcw3 certified.
The mystic product Miles mentioned is a tcw3 boat oil and is certified. It doesn't carry any other certifications. Mystic does have fd certified oils. Sea and snow being one, which is ment for jet skis and sleds.


----------



## KG441c

Ilmater said:


> Oh looky here, TC-W3 oils that were tested have passed JASO FD as well:


Its not Jaso certified. It doesnt have the official Jaso square box certification I listed earlier. They are only making the claim along with just about every other current topend oils out there


----------



## KG441c

I think Motul 710 has the official certification on their packaging


----------



## Jimbo209

bwalker said:


> The first oil isn't certified at all, it says "meets" tcw3. It doesn't claim to meet any other standard. It does list several standards ,but makes no claim .Klotz is FD certified, but doesn't claim to be tcw3 certified.


Excuse my ignorance but unless tcw3has been photoshopped on to that bottle who's is it in the middle if the label,
Is that because "Klotz think" that it meets the standard or will,perform adequately 

Otherwise its massive false advertising.


----------



## KG441c

Jimbo209 said:


> Excuse my ignorance but unless tcw3has been photoshopped on to that bottle who's is it in the middle if the label,
> Is that because "Klotz think" that it meets the standard or will,perform adequately
> 
> Otherwise its massive false advertising.


Its not officially certified


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Multi purpose oils are tcw3 oils....
> I challenge you to find one "multi purpose oil that is certified for use in a air cooled engine. I am talking actually certified, not claimed to meet or some such none sense.


No they are not, as shown can be used in a variety of engine types, just because you may have been certified doesn't nessesarily mean we have to have certified oils, event the manufacturers don't have certified oils but they meet or exceed the standards


----------



## Jimbo209

KG441c said:


> Its not Jaso certified. It doesnt have the official Jaso square box certification I listed earlier. They are only making the claim along with just about every other current topend oils out there


How strenuous is getting certification.

I know you can get cheap(er) pesticide free produce from farmers that are trying to go organic as it's a 8-10 process to be "CERTIFIED"

But not sure if people in this thread would buy that as it's got less "Additives" and such


----------



## KG441c

The download post I posted earlier goes into detail of the test and parameters. FA being the least strenuous test and FD being the highest classification of test passed


----------



## Bwildered

Jimbo209 said:


> How strenuous is getting certification



Probably very easily, hopefully they will let us out on good behaviour once they see we were only sucked into the doublespeak ruse.
Stangst


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Its not Jaso certified. It doesnt have the official Jaso square box certification I listed earlier. They are only making the claim along with just about every other current topend oils out there


Read carefully, they make no claim at all. As to FD. They claim to meet boat oil standards, but haven't been actually certified.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> No they are not, as shown can be used in a variety of engine types, just because you have been certified doesn't nessesarily mean we have to have certified oils, event the manufacturers don't have certified oils but they meet or exceed the standards


Yes, they are, and rhat hasn't been show at all. Stihl spwcifivally says no to multipurpose oils...
Husky, stihl, and echo along with others have FD certified oils. They do not have boat oil certified oils...hint.. hint


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Yes, they are, and rhat hasn't been show at all. Stihl spwcifivally says no to multipurpose oils...
> Husky, stihl, and echo along with others have FD certified oils. They do not have boat oil certified oils...hint.. hint


Your changing the subject, we're not discussing chainsaw manufacturers now just multipurpose oils, it must be a girly man type argument ploy your used to using to steer away from where you've been shown up.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Your changing the subject, we're not discussing chainsaw manufacturers now just multipurpose oils, it must be a girly man type argument ploy your used to using to steer away from where you've been shown up.


You haven't shown anything other than you haven't a clue and that your completely wrong per usual..


----------



## KG441c

See the square box with the certifications in them? If it doesnt have that box with lettering its a no go!! MA2 is JASO certification for wet clutch performace standards


----------



## bwalker

Jimbo209 said:


> Excuse my ignorance but unless tcw3has been photoshopped on to that bottle who's is it in the middle if the label,
> Is that because "Klotz think" that it meets the standard or will,perform adequately
> 
> Otherwise its massive false advertising.


Years ago Klotz snowmobile oil was tcw3 certified as were most snowmobiles oils save Bombardier. It was found that tcw3 oils performed terrible in sleds so the oems went to jaso type low ash oils. The pictured klotz packaging is from that old stuff. The new Klotz snowmobile oil is FD certified and not tcw3 certified. Klotz does have a tcw3 certified oil ,but it's not the product in question.


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> Was it dedicated TCW-3 oil or a multipurpose oil that can be used where a TCW-3 is specified?


IIRC, the guy wasnt sure which oil was used ............ my guess is the tree company went to Pep Boys and purchased (by the gallon) Peak TCW-3 oil for $10.99


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> Yes, they are, and rhat hasn't been show at all. Stihl spwcifivally says no to multipurpose oils...
> Husky, stihl, and echo along with others have FD certified oils. They do not have boat oil certified oils...hint.. hint


Last time I checked, Husky, Stihl, and Echo don't manufacture boats. Hint... Hint...



KG441c said:


> See the square box with the certifications in them? If it doesnt have that box with lettering its a no go!! MA2 is JASO certification for wet clutch performace standards


Newsflash--not certified =/= subpar quality and a product everyone should avoid:


dirtydannyd said:


> I just want to clarify something with all this stuff about Rotella T6 being JASO-MA "certified".
> 
> It's my understanding that it isn't JASO-MA certified. A JASO-MA "certified" oil has undergone the testing to be allowed to display the certificate on the bottle like what Motul has.
> 
> This is the JASO-MA certificate and I believe it's present on some 'motorcycle oils' such as Motul et al.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotella T6 does not have this. They have the API certificate (round stamp on the right) but that's it as far as "certifications" go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you could say that people wouldn't use it becuase it is not JASO-MA certified.
> Fair enough, the manufacturer "claims" it meet JASO-MA, however this has not been certified. At the end of the day, the manufacturer can "claim" anything they want, right?
> 
> At the end of the day, it is a good oil and does seem suitable for motorcycles as plenty of oil analysis' have shown. All I'm trying to do here is to cut through the hype and get to the facts regarding oils that "meet a particular standard" as opposed to oils that "are certified and have undergone certification".
> 
> I'm not trying to dump on this product. It's a great product. But you don't just say "it's certified" becuase it isn't. Just like a guy in a white coat in a hospital isn't a "certified" doctor without the proper certificate even though he might have the knowledge to provide you with medical care.
> 
> Oh, and FYI I'm not drumming up business for motorcycle oils. Personally, I use Delo 400 15W/40 Multigrade in my 1050 Speed Triple and in my TTR250 dirtbike





BigCahuna said:


> *You guys do realise that there are alot of motorcycle oils that do not even have the API symbol on the bottle, and sell for premium prices. Big name brands whose bottles say it meets or exceeds API standards. They have been that way for years and apparently it doesn't bother too many people, or bikes for that matter.*,,





Mike Simmons said:


> Here is my take, FWIW. Rotella was designed and is marketed by Shell as primarily a HD truck engine oil. *There is a substantial fee that must be paid to JASO for the testing and certification for the MA spec. Shell has determined that it probably not worth the time and money to submit this oil to JASO for certification, however, Shell has examined the JASO MA spec and found that Rotella meets their requirements.* Another good example of this is Amsoil. For many years, Amsoil was not API certified because Amsoil did not want to incur the expense of obtaining certification, but they marketed their oil as "meeting" API specs.
> 
> Mike


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2647970


----------



## KG441c

Ilmater said:


> Last time I checked, Husky, Stihl, and echo don't manufacture boats. Hint... Hint...
> 
> 
> Newsflash--not certified =/= subpar quality and a product everyone should avoid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2647970


Anwser me this ? Whats the most strenuous test that an oil must pass before its rated fd over fa, fb?


----------



## KG441c

Ilmater said:


> Last time I checked, Husky, Stihl, and Echo don't manufacture boats. Hint... Hint...
> 
> 
> Newsflash--not certified =/= subpar quality and a product everyone should avoid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2647970


Also for reference I dont use any oils that are Jaso certified and they are all industry top oils? So to pick an oil by Jaso certification for protection of the engine u r pissing in the wind


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Last time I checked, Husky, Stihl, and Echo don't manufacture boats. Hint... Hint...
> 
> 
> Newsflash--not certified =/= subpar quality and a product everyone should avoid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2647970


Right, they don't mfg boats, that's why their oils are certified to an aircooled standard.
Here we have a guy arguing and he doesn't even understand what the standards mean or what it takes to pass them..


----------



## KG441c




----------



## KG441c




----------



## KG441c

Unless im mistaken the only 3 factors Jaso requires for fc and fd over fa and fb are exhaust smoke, exhaust system blocking requirements, and sulfated ash mass content? Sound familar? EPA???!!!! Lubricity test requirements are the same for all classes


----------



## Trx250r180

Wonder why the guy from Dumonde tech said this would be a good oil for my saw ,Could there be an exception in the tcw oils ,this stuff is no penzoil ,that is for sure ,what does Z1 stand for ? ,the tcw must be watercraft by the discussion here ,But the Z1 ?
His email response .
Hi Brian, both Z-1 and L111 would be excellent for your chain saw. If pricing is a concern then Z-1 would be best. Then L111. They both are excellent. Both burn very clean and have good throttle response with very high protection. Thank you for you support of Dumonde Tech products. Dumonde Design Group Inc.


----------



## Trx250r180

Anyone have any long time use with this stuff ?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Unless im mistaken the only 3 factors Jaso requires for fc and fd over fa and fb are exhaust smoke, exhaust system blocking requirements, and sulfated ash mass content? Sound familar? EPA???!!!! Lubricity test requirements are the same for all classes


Sulfated ash limits are done to limit crown deposits and plug fouling. Sulfated ash actually refers to the test used to determine the amount of mettalics in a sample.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Wonder why the guy from Dumonde tech said this would be a good oil for my saw ,Could there be an exception in the tcw oils ,this stuff is no penzoil ,that is for sure ,what does Z1 stand for ? ,the tcw must be watercraft by the discussion here ,But the Z1 ?
> His email response .
> Hi Brian, both Z-1 and L111 would be excellent for your chain saw. If pricing is a concern then Z-1 would be best. Then L111. They both are excellent. Both burn very clean and have good throttle response with very high protection. Thank you for you support of Dumonde Tech products. Dumonde Design Group Inc.
> 
> View attachment 448858
> View attachment 448859


That's a oil formulated for boat use.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Also for reference I dont use any oils that are Jaso certified and they are all industry top oils? So to pick an oil by Jaso certification for protection of the engine u r pissing in the wind


Your also not using oils formulated for boats..


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Sulfated ash limits are done to limit crown deposits and plug fouling. Sulfated ash actually refers to the test used to determine the amount of mettalics in a sample.


Wont a higher mettalic content be bad for engine wear?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Wont a higher mettalic content be bad for engine wear?





KG441c said:


> Wont a higher mettalic content be bad for engine wear?


No, the chief anti wear and detergent compounds are all mettalics.


----------



## svk

Hey guys: We are getting a lot of reported posts in this thread. I understand this topic is very important to a few of you so we want to keep it open. Just a friendly reminder to please stop the personal attacks and re-spelling of profanities to get around the filter.

Thanks and carry on.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Unless im mistaken the only 3 factors Jaso requires for fc and fd over fa and fb are exhaust smoke, exhaust system blocking requirements, and sulfated ash mass content? Sound familar? EPA???!!!! Lubricity test requirements are the same for all classes


Detergency is also different with each class. Also, there's no longer a FA rating. Only FB, FC, and FD.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Detergency is also different with each class. Also, there's no longer a FA rating. Only FB, FC, and FD.


Ya . Lubricity was the same with all 3 classes.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> From my understanding if a product has true certification from JASO, the packaging will display as followsView attachment 448818


 Yes, the square labeling is required if certification has been met. If the 2-cycle oil is classified or labeled as a "racing" oil usually certification isn't done.


----------



## Ron660

Here's an example of the square label Keith was referring to .


----------



## KG441c

Seems FD should keep engine cleaner


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> Anyone have any long time use with this stuff ?
> View attachment 448866
> View attachment 448867


@porsche965


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Seems FD should keep engine cleaner


Yes, the tests shows us a FD will be cleaner than a FC or a FB. It will also smoke less. But the test doesn't show that a FD will lubricate better than a FB.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Yes, the tests shows us a FD will be cleaner than a FC or a FB. It will also smoke less. But the test doesn't show that a FD will lubricate better than a FB.


Ya the whole jaso thing is geared toward emissions for EPA


----------



## blsnelling

Does a FB rating mean that it doesn't pass FD testing, or that it just hasn't been?


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> @porsche965


First full synthetic non factory oil that i have seen with chainsaw manufacturers on the box .


----------



## KG441c

I think the rating it recieves is as high as it will rate


----------



## KG441c

Looks like to me the fc, fd rated oils r full of additives and the base oils are performing to the same level as fb


----------



## Ron660

This one too.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 448876
> 
> This one too.


I listed the picture with that whole series of oils . My question is why does motul choose to certify some oils and not their top rated oils?


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> Does a FB rating mean that it doesn't pass FD testing, or that it just hasn't been?


Yes a FB rating shows it didn't meet more stringent detergency, smoke, and ash mass requirements.


----------



## Ron660

"Racing" oils are exempt.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> "Racing" oils are exempt.


Ya goes back to epa requirements the same as some fuels were restricted to race enviroments only.


----------



## KG441c

Some of these race oils may not burn as clean as some of the jaso rated oils. You have no way to know if they have actually passed the smoke and exhaust test because most of the topend race oils havent been tested. May be a good reason why the manufacturer chooses not to have it tested? As far as being exempt all oils are exempt from testing if they choose. They r choosing to have ratings displayed on some oils and some they arent for a reason


----------



## KG441c

K2 is looking pretty good to me right now. They will all work though. Id even use h1r as it never gave me any problems


----------



## KG441c

About the only advantage I see in Jaso ratings would be some have better detergeants to aid in a cleaner motor


----------



## Deleted member 83629

motul 800 off road burns very clean with no smell and doesn't smoke at all except when the saw is first started.


----------



## KenJax Tree

jakewells said:


> motul 800 off road burns very clean with no smell and doesn't smoke at all except when the saw is first started.


I bet compared to your Supertech oil 10w-30w would burn clean[emoji23]


----------



## KG441c

Id like to hear input from everyone on likes/dislikes on K2 thats used it


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> Id like to hear input from everyone on likes/dislikes on K2 thats used it


Maxima makes top notch stuff ,only gripe is no dye in the mix .


----------



## Deleted member 83629

the only thing burning 10w30 is my truck and i use supertech in it.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm moving on to Lucas. I've but over a gallon of 2R thru my saws..........time to switch.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> Maxima makes top notch stuff ,only gripe is no dye in the mix .


K2 is red and so is Super M


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Trx250r180 said:


> Maxima makes top notch stuff ,only gripe is no dye in the mix .


reminds me of that mobil 1 2 cycle oil


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Id like to hear input from everyone on likes/dislikes on K2 thats used it


Pros: burns clean, not much smell, coats piston skirt very well....nothing not to like here.

Cons: $$$


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KenJax Tree said:


> Pros: burns clean, not much smell, coats piston skirt very well....nothing not to like here.
> 
> Cons: $$$


agree


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> I'm moving on to Lucas. I've but over a gallon of 2R thru my saws..........time to switch.


This is soooo 6 months ago, it already been tested and leaves a dry piston. You will damn your saw to the flames of hell with this oil. [emoji23]


----------



## redbull660

what I don't get is that in 7,000 posts with all the resources out there. Not one person has done any timed cuts between oils. 

Get a decent piece of wood. Get a non hand sharpened, new or like new chain.
Do 2-3 cuts with brand A whatever ratio you want I don't care.
Take the chain off
dump your gas
put in new gas with brand B
get another chain...cut with it for a little bit so you've got the new gas through the system.
put test chain back on do 2-3 cuts with brand B compare times.

I don't want to hear about the variables in wood either. If the wood is nice and the cuts are close enough together and done on same day it's fine.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

maybe send you guys a test subject for testing these oil, if you can knock it down.
Meet Bertha


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> motul 800 off road burns very clean with no smell and doesn't smoke at all except when the saw is first started.


Its probably the best oil Ive used


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> what I don't get is that in 7,000 posts with all the resources out there. Not one person has done any timed cuts between oils.
> 
> Get a decent piece of wood. Get a non hand sharpened, new or like new chain.
> Do 2-3 cuts with brand A whatever ratio you want I don't care.
> Take the chain off
> dump your gas
> put in new gas with brand B
> get another chain...cut with it for a little bit so you've got the new gas through the system.
> put test chain back on do 2-3 cuts with brand B compare times.
> 
> I don't want to hear about the variables in wood either. If the wood is nice and the cuts are close enough together and done on same day it's fine.


Im just gonna guess that it doesn't really matter to 99% of the people here.

And most have better things to do with their time and money.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Its probably the best oil Ive used


800 off-road is the cleanest I've used.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> This is soooo 6 months ago, it already been tested and leaves a dry piston. You will damn your saw to the flames of hell with this oil. [emoji23]


Lol!! Randy did u not like r2?


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> Im just gonna guess that it doesn't really matter to 99% of the people here.
> 
> And most have better things to do with their time and money.



yeah like sit on this endless thread and gossip and speculate about oil rather than figure it out. If it didn't matter they wouldn't be here. And this thread woudn't have 7000+ posts or ~140,000 views.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Im just gonna guess that it doesn't really matter to 99% of the people here.
> 
> And most have better things to do with their time and money.


Agreed. I would rather a saw with torque than one with a second more


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> 800 off-road is the cleanest I've used.


You need to try some k2


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Ya goes back to epa requirements the same as some fuels were restricted to race enviroments only.


EPA regulates air emissions from Industries, cars, motorcycles, and hand-held 2-cycle equipment but not racing equipment.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> EPA regulates air emissions from Industries, cars, motorcycles, and hand-held 2-cycle equipment but not racing equipment.


Exactly my point. They dont test the race oils for a reason. Probably wouldnt pass the test


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> You need to try some k2


Since I found more 800 off-road it'll be a while before I buy more oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> yeah like sit on this endless thread and gossip and speculate about oil rather than figure it out. If it didn't matter they wouldn't be here. And this thread woudn't have 7000+ posts or ~140,000 views.


True but i don't think timed cuts mean much to a guy cutting firewood or making a living.

For me if its readily available, good quality, burns clean, priced well and doesn't kill my sinuses i'm in. Hell i don't even own a ported saw so IMO seconds don't mean much if you aren't racing.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Exactly my point. They dont test the race oils for a reason. Probably wouldnt pass the test


Racing oils highest priority is maximum protection under high stress conditions. I think most would easily meet FD requirements.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i picked up two liters of it at the bike shop they were having a sale 30$ for 2 liters is cheap.


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> True but i don't think timed cuts mean much to a guy cutting firewood or making a living.
> 
> For me if its readily available, good quality, burns clean, priced well and doesn't kill my sinuses i'm in. Hell i don't even own a ported saw so IMO seconds don't mean much if you aren't racing.



Well then! I guess we should all follow your lead. Problem solved. None of this sh*t matters. Ya'll can stop posting!

guess I won't post my results then when I do the oil test. I'll just go and win at all the GTG's


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ya the whole jaso thing is geared toward emissions for EPA


It really isn't .
As I mentioned many months/pages back, lubricity is no longer an issue as it pertains to wear. Deposits are very much a factor in wear.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Does a FB rating mean that it doesn't pass FD testing, or that it just hasn't been?


FB is obsolete.


----------



## KenJax Tree

redbull660 said:


> Well then! I guess we should all follow your lead. Problem solved. None of this sh*t matters. Ya'll can stop posting!
> 
> guess I won't post my results then when I do the oil test. I'll just go and win at all the GTG's


Whatever floats your boat.... i'm not saying anyone should do as i do so no need to follow my lead.

I just haven't seen anyone post about timed cuts in a long time, its been mostly about burning clean and film strength which i think many oils talked about here fall into that catagory. Pick your poison and ratio.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Racing oils highest priority is maximum protection under high stress conditions. I think most would easily meet FD requirements.


My point again is not protection or lubricity but the main focus on jaso is smoke and exhaust blocking according to the jaso chart


----------



## Ron660

KenJax Tree said:


> Whatever floats your boat.... i'm not saying anyone should do as i do so no need to follow my lead.
> 
> I just haven't seen anyone post about timed cuts in a long time, its been mostly about burning clean and film strength which i think many oils talked about here fall into that catagory. Pick your poison and ratio.


I liked Mike's experience showing lower end and bearing lubrication.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ron660 said:


> I liked Mike's experience showing lower end and bearing lubrication.


Well that means something when discussing oil but timed cuts do not.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

want to really keep a engine clean use 2 ounces of seafoam per gallon of mix it might smoke a little more but it will get a saw squeaky clean.


----------



## LowVolt




----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> K2 is red and so is Super M


I have some super M and 927 ,i thought it was gold ,i may be wrong though ,i have about 80 bottles of oil on my bench thanks to this thread ,lol 


jakewells said:


> reminds me of that mobil 1 2 cycle oil


That's what i am running now ,i like the almost odorless smell ,the yellow/clear fuel i do not like ,at 32 to 1 the idle quality


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> My point again is not protection or lubricity but the main focus on jaso is smoke and exhaust blocking


800 off-road has none to little smoke. Also extremely clean just like Mike said.


----------



## KenJax Tree

927 is gold but K2 and super m are orangeish red color


----------



## Mastermind

redbull660 said:


> what I don't get is that in 7,000 posts with all the resources out there. Not one person has done any timed cuts between oils.
> 
> Get a decent piece of wood. Get a non hand sharpened, new or like new chain.
> Do 2-3 cuts with brand A whatever ratio you want I don't care.
> Take the chain off
> dump your gas
> put in new gas with brand B
> get another chain...cut with it for a little bit so you've got the new gas through the system.
> put test chain back on do 2-3 cuts with brand B compare times.
> 
> I don't want to hear about the variables in wood either. If the wood is nice and the cuts are close enough together and done on same day it's fine.



I never fell a tree with a stop watch in it.

I did like that you figured out that H1R was phucking with the A/T saws. I stopped using it after that. It's not about the speed though, it's about the why. If H1R inhibits combustion, then it puts the A/T saws outside their calibration window. Sort of a no brainer once you see it. A second here and there in a worksaw though. Who really cares?

How's that 084 running? Scott was here for a couple of days......he told me that you were a fairly normal guy. I was surprised. 



KG441c said:


> Lol!! Randy did u not like r2?



I love that oil. Just wanna see if Lucas works as well.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> want to really keep a engine clean use 2 ounces of seafoam per gallon of mix it might smoke a little more but it will get a saw squeaky clean.


Agreed! Yamaha ring free some of the best cleaner made


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> Agreed! Yamaha ring free some of the best cleaner made


yamaha ring free is for rich people 30$ per bottle here.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> I never fell a tree with a stop watch in it.
> 
> I did like that you figured out that H1R was phucking with the A/T saws. I stopped using it after that. It's not about the speed though, it's about the why. If H1R inhibits combustion, then it puts the A/T saws outside their calibration window. Sort of a no brainer once you see it. A second here and there in a worksaw though. Who really cares?
> 
> How's that 084 running? Scott was here for a couple of days......he told me that you were a fairly normal guy. I was surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> I love that oil. Just wanna see if Lucas works as well.


I like it too but i also like Honda HP2, but Yamalube is hard to beat for $10 a quart

I also liked Lucas but for the same price Yamalube seems like a better oil.

Maybe its all just my imagination but in 20 years of tree work nothing has ever exploded even using oil i wouldn't dare use now.[emoji23]


----------



## KG441c

Ive used a good bit of Lucas Randy in lawn eq. , saws, and dirtbikes. No problems


----------



## Deleted member 83629

bel ray si7 is good oil to jaso fd rated and burns clean it does smoke a little when the saw is cold 
its 8$ per liter.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> yamaha ring free is for rich people 30$ per bottle here.


Ya but 1 lil cap treats 10 gal. Alota caps in a pint


----------



## KG441c

Can anyone tell me the Husky equivalent to a J'Red 2255? Ive got one to work on


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Can anyone tell me the Husky equivalent to a J'Red 2255? Ive got one to work on


455 Rancher


----------



## KG441c

Ok Chris thanks. Do they perform the same?


----------



## KenJax Tree

They should its the same saw in different colors


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> Im just gonna guess that it doesn't really matter to 99% of the people here.
> 
> And most have better things to do with their time and money.


Or the fact that such a test has any validity.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> want to really keep a engine clean use 2 ounces of seafoam per gallon of mix it might smoke a little more but it will get a saw squeaky clean.


Ever looked at the msds for seafoam..talk about snake oil.


----------



## big t double

Mastermind said:


> Scott was here for a couple of days......he told me that you were a fairly normal guy. I was surprised


oddly enough, its true. he really is hahahahaha. and I got to run that 084 for a couple cuts....nice saw.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> You need to try some k2


I agree.


----------



## bwalker

Mastermind said:


> I never fell a tree with a stop watch in it.
> 
> I did like that you figured out that H1R was phucking with the A/T saws. I stopped using it after that. It's not about the speed though, it's about the why. If H1R inhibits combustion, then it puts the A/T saws outside their calibration window. Sort of a no brainer once you see it. A second here and there in a worksaw though. Who really cares?
> 
> How's that 084 running? Scott was here for a couple of days......he told me that you were a fairly normal guy. I was surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> I love that oil. Just wanna see if Lucas works as well.


H1R screws with the tuning on everything I have tried it in.


----------



## Mastermind

big t double said:


> oddly enough, its true. he really is hahahahaha. and I got to run that 084 for a couple cuts....nice saw.



Redbull told me he had that saw.....and I was like........Oh phuck. Here we go.........


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> Yes a FB rating shows it didn't meet more stringent detergency, smoke, and ash mass requirements.


Are FC and FD not a later spec? Or, when an oil is tested, is it given one of the three?


----------



## bwalker

Fb is an older standard.


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> yeah like sit on this endless thread and gossip and speculate about oil rather than figure it out. If it didn't matter they wouldn't be here. And this thread woudn't have 7000+ posts or ~140,000 views.


Nothin like sitting on the fence chewing the fat all day!
Tangst


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Fb is an older standard.


In other words, an older FB rating does not necessarily mean that it wouldn't pass FD testing. For example, Mobil 1 2T is considered by many to be the best and cleanest burning oil for chainsaw use, yet it's only FB rated.


----------



## TBrown

Mastermind said:


> Redbull told me he had that saw.....and I was like........Oh phuck. Here we go.........


He is a good guy. Did Scott tell you that the 084 has a buddy?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> In other words, an older FB rating does not necessarily mean that it wouldn't pass FD testing. For example, Mobil 1 2T is considered by many to be the best and cleanest burning oil for chainsaw use, yet it's only FB rated.


Thats correct. IIRC Mx2t was a FC and ISO EGD oil. At the time FD was only just then being proposed. Given that it was ISO EGD it would very likely pass FD easily.


----------



## Mastermind

TBrown said:


> He is a good guy. Did Scott tell you that the 084 has a buddy?



No sir........he just said that the 084 was a runner......and that Redbull was OK. Then we chewed the fat for 26 more hours.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Id like to hear input from everyone on likes/dislikes on K2 thats used it


K2 is good stuff .............. no complaints !
Got 1 liter for $25 on a sale ............. smells like resin when mixxing, no smell when running, no smoke, looks like I will be purchasing it for all of my 2 cycle needs.
reddish-orange color, works well in my bikes, saws, weedeaters, hedge-trimmers, blowers .................. even with pump gas with ethanol it works good !


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> K2 is good stuff .............. no complaints !
> Got 1 liter for $25 on a sale ............. smells like resin when mixxing, no smell when running, no smoke, looks like I will be purchasing it for all of my 2 cycle needs.
> reddish-orange color, works well in my bikes, saws, weedeaters, hedge-trimmers, blowers .................. even with pump gas with ethanol is works good !


Good to hear Mopar! Thanks. Amazon has 64oz containers for 34$ shipped


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> K2 is good stuff .............. no complaints !
> Got 1 liter for $25 on a sale ............. smells like resin when mixxing, no smell when running, no smoke, looks like I will be purchasing it for all of my 2 cycle needs.
> reddish-orange color, works well in my bikes, saws, weedeaters, hedge-trimmers, blowers .................. even with pump gas with ethanol is works good !


Do u think you like it better than 800t?


----------



## Moparmyway

I am on the fence there ................ I cant honestly say that I like one better than the other, and I can say that they are about identical, except that K2 doesnt smell at all and Motul 800 barely has a smell to it when running. Motul smells better than K2 when mixxing, but thats REALLY splitting hairs


----------



## KenJax Tree

I like Super M also, that burned clean and had little smoke too. Smelled like K2 burning and half the price.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Do u think you like it better than 800t?


I do for my needs. It runs as clean at 32:1 as 800 does at 40:1.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I am on the fence there ................ I cant honestly say that I like one better than the other, and I can say that they are about identical, except that K2 doesnt smell at all and Motul 800 barely has a smell to it when running. Motul smells better than K2 when mixxing, but thats REALLY splitting hairs


I thought I was the only one who took a sniff of the bottle before pouring. Kinda like a fine scotch!


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I thought I was the only one who took a sniff of the bottle before pouring. Kinda like a fine scotch!


No i do a sniff test too


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I thought I was the only one who took a sniff of the bottle before pouring. Kinda like a fine scotch!



Johnny Walker Blue is my choice often.


----------



## mdavlee

K2>Mobil>800 for milling just for the odor if you can't get away from it. R50 is a little rough as well for smell with no wind. I can't remember if original was that bad or not.


----------



## Bwildered

Has anybody considered how funny it would be if the manufacturers ashless oils such as stihl & ryobi met or exceeded the requirements of TCW-3 & were in fact as some claim "boat oils"
Being as some of the TCW-3 oils are the cheapest you can find. LOL
Tangst


----------



## bwalker

That ashless Stihl oil you are referring to was originally formulated to help the four mix engines with deposit issues from what I gather. From the pics of pistons I have seen with ultra I would not be in a hurry to run it in a saw.
Ashless dispersesents can't deal with high temps(above 300 degrees) so ultra and the ryobi stuff will suffer from the same issues that the snowmobile Mfgs suffered through when they reccomended ashless oils.
Again, I challenge you to find one oil that has been tested and certified for both TCW3 and Jaso FC/FD. Hint, you won't find a single one.
Stihl ultra as it pertains to base oil composition is very likely not formulated like a boat oil. Some of the "multi purpose"products you and your buddy are pumping are indeed boat oils and are even certified as such. The Lubegard product hints it's a boat oil, but it isn't certified by anyone, so who knows what it is.
Again, I ask the question, why not just use the correct oil for the application?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Again, I ask the question, why not just use the correct oil for the application?


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> K2>Mobil>800 for milling just for the odor if you can't get away from it. R50 is a little rough as well for smell with no wind. I can't remember if original was that bad or not.


 Mike, how did K2 and Mobil look in the lower end compared to R50 and 800?


----------



## mdavlee

Haven't pulled one apart on Mobil yet. K2 looks great.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Haven't pulled one apart on Mobil yet. K2 looks great.


What was your take on r2 Mike or did u use any?


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> Mike, how did K2 and Mobil look in the lower end compared to R50 and 800?





mdavlee said:


> K2 looks great.



I second that ..............
We need a high hour test to see how K2 holds up long term.
I do this on the side, so my stuff dont get lots of hours ........... on my 7th can (5 gallons each) of VP for the year (all 2 cycle *** combined)

I havent given Mobil 1 a good try yet either, but I do have a case of it thanks to a certain junk collector


----------



## Bwildered

New
That ashless Stihl oil you are referring to was originally formulated to help the four mix engines with deposit issues from what I gather. From the pics of pistons I have seen with ultra I would not be in a hurry to run it in a saw.
Ashless dispersesents can't deal with high temps(above 300 degrees) so ultra and the ryobi stuff will suffer from the same issues that the snowmobile Mfgs suffered through when they reccomended ashless oils.
Again, I challenge you to find one oil that has been tested and certified for both TCW3 and Jaso FC/FD. Hint, you won't find a single one.
Stihl ultra as it pertains to base oil composition is very likely not formulated like a boat oil. Some of the "multi purpose"products you and your buddy are pumping are indeed boat oils and are even certified as such. The Lubegard product hints it's a boat oil, but it isn't certified by anyone, so who knows what it is.
Again, I ask the question, why not just use the correct oil for the application?

bwalker, Today at 8:56 PMReport
#7085Like+ QuoteReply
I don't think your considering it at all, after all the bar is set very low with some TCW-3 oils, I don't know what snowmobiles a decade or more ago has got to do with today's newer generation composition oils that have been fully tested for their purpose, but I'm sure we can put it in the round file along with some of your other gems, I can't speak for anybody else but I'm not that hung up on certification like your are, especially theses days when "meets or exceeds" is the norm. The royal purple multipurpose oil mentioned isn't a TCW-3 certified but can be used where it is specified, so it can be used as a boat oil but seeing your hung up on certification & boat oils it isn't technically one, which is why I raised the question about those other oils.
So are the Stihl ultra HP oil 500 hr piston test pics & report run at 50:1 not a true indication of how clean & good the oil performs then ? What evidence do you have that proves it false?


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> So are the Stihl ultra HP oil 500 hr piston test pics run at 50:1 not a true indication of how clean & well the oil performs then ? What evidence do you have that proves it false?


This


----------



## KG441c

I always have seen in several customers saws that Ive torn down that stihl oil would build up that thick soft carbon instead of the smooth hard carbon


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> This


Have you tried it yet at the recommended ratios with the correct tune?
Fansk


----------



## Bwildered

KG441c said:


> I always have seen in several customers saws that Ive torn down that stihl oil would build up that thick soft carbon instead of the smooth hard carbon


The stihl piston pics show carbon crown build up as well, the better the stihl oil the less build up, the sides of the pistons are the important parts some say.
Thansgst


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> Have you tried it yet with the correct tune?
> Fansk



Correct tune ??? 
661 is M-tronic


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> I always have seen in several customers saws that Ive torn down that stihl oil would build up that thick soft carbon instead of the smooth hard carbon


Have you looked at the inside of their spark arrestors ?

i have seen the flakes stuck against the screens


----------



## Bwildered

*You cant fix stupid.jpg*
File size:
57.1 KB
Views:
2
I like that, how true! I've only got one oil on my shelf while some are pissin there money & extra oil away by the bucket full.
Thangst


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> I like that, how true! I've only got one oil on my shelf while some are pissin there money & extra oil away by the bucket full.
> Thangst


What oil are you running ?


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Correct tune ???
> 661 is M-tronic


Yes correct tune! That's tune the operator up to run the correct ratios.
Thangst


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> What oil are you running ?


Castrol power 1 TTS synthetic.
Fanks


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> Yes correct tune! That's tune the operator up to run the correct ratios.
> Thangst


 
My ported saws deserve better than a soot producing oil @ 50:1



Bwildered said:


> Castrol power 1 TTS synthetic.
> Fanks


At least it isnt boat oil


----------



## KG441c

Bwildered said:


> The stihl piston pics show carbon crown build up as well, the better the stihl oil the less build up, the sides of the pistons are the important parts some say.
> Thansgst


Its the wrong kind of soft sooty carbon though that plugs things up though


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Have you looked at the inside of their spark arrestors ?
> 
> i have seen the flakes stuck against the screens


Ya its the soft sooty type that plugs things up. I prefer to see the hard thin layer on top of the piston that I believe actually increases compression obviously and I also think the hard thin layer acts as an insulator on the piston crown from heat being absorbed


----------



## Trx250r180

Has anyone else tried the sabre with all the chainsaw brands listed on the bottle before i mix some up ? None of the oils being talked about have chainsaw brands on the bottle .


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Amazon has 64oz containers for 34$ shipped


Needed it that day ............. long story and I wasnt at home to lend some of mine


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> New
> That ashless Stihl oil you are referring to was originally formulated to help the four mix engines with deposit issues from what I gather. From the pics of pistons I have seen with ultra I would not be in a hurry to run it in a saw.
> Ashless dispersesents can't deal with high temps(above 300 degrees) so ultra and the ryobi stuff will suffer from the same issues that the snowmobile Mfgs suffered through when they reccomended ashless oils.
> Again, I challenge you to find one oil that has been tested and certified for both TCW3 and Jaso FC/FD. Hint, you won't find a single one.
> Stihl ultra as it pertains to base oil composition is very likely not formulated like a boat oil. Some of the "multi purpose"products you and your buddy are pumping are indeed boat oils and are even certified as such. The Lubegard product hints it's a boat oil, but it isn't certified by anyone, so who knows what it is.
> Again, I ask the question, why not just use the correct oil for the application?
> 
> bwalker, Today at 8:56 PMReport
> #7085Like+ QuoteReply
> I don't think your considering it at all, after all the bar is set very low with some TCW-3 oils, I don't know what snowmobiles a decade or more ago has got to do with today's newer generation composition oils that have been fully tested for their purpose, but I'm sure we can put it in the round file along with some of your other gems, I can't speak for anybody else but I'm not that hung up on certification like your are, especially theses days when "meets or exceeds" is the norm. The royal purple multipurpose oil mentioned isn't a TCW-3 certified but can be used where it is specified, so it can be used as a boat oil but seeing your hung up on certification & boat oils it isn't technically one, which is why I raised the question about those other oils.
> So are the Stihl ultra HP oil 500 hr piston test pics & report run at 50:1 not a true indication of how clean & good the oil performs then ? What evidence do you have that proves it false?


What snowmobile oils a decade ago has to do with it, is the fact the oems tried to use ashless, tcw3 type chemistry which is still in use today and failed miserably. The royal purple product you mention is in fact formulated as a tcw3 type boat oil. Meet and exceeds is BS and totaly unsubstantiated IMO. One of the products your buddy posted a pic of actually listed every standard under the sun on the bottle but didn't claim to meet any of them! Is this the behavior of reputable companies?
Have you found a dual purpose oil that meets tcw3 and Jaso FC specs yet? You wont, because it's not possible to formulate one and there are plenty of companies wirh products on both the JASO and NMMA certifications list, so you would think at least one would pass both if it were possible.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> This


The pictures in those tests and the ones other *** companies use are marketing bs IMO.
The picture of Redbulls piston was after very few hours and it already looked like that.


----------



## bwalker

As far as evidence goes. Both Brad and Redbull have posted pics of Ultra pistons that looked terrible. That's evidence of real world usage.


----------



## Moparmyway

IIRC, the one I posted came from Randy ...................... its been a while, I could be wrong



**EDIT** ........... I am wrong, mdavlee reminded us all that its from Maulhead


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> IIRC, the one I posted came from Randy ...................... its been a while, I could be wrong


I believe it was Redbull's piston.


----------



## LowVolt

Trx250r180 said:


> Has anyone else tried the sabre with all the chainsaw brands listed on the bottle before i mix some up ? None of the oils being talked about have chainsaw brands on the bottle .
> View attachment 449049


Planning on milling with 100:1 mix?

Well it says on the bottle I can...........


----------



## Trx250r180

LowVolt said:


> Planning on milling with 100:1 mix?
> 
> Well it says on the bottle I can...........


It says tested up to 100 to 1 ,in a string trimmer am sure would be fine ,in my saw will be 32 to 1 milling ,i will test 40 to 1 also see if good enough and runs any different . i had a malfunction at 50 to 1 once in a high compression saw ,will not use that ratio in a hopped up one anymore .Stock i would not worry about 50 to 1 though .I have steered away from this brand for years because of the 100 to 1 bs ,a few timber fallers have been running it 50 to 1 around here i talked to ,and like it better than the stihl ultra .


----------



## blsnelling

It's very good oil from what I hear.


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> It says tested up to 100 to 1 ,in a string trimmer am sure would be fine ,in my saw will be 32 to 1 milling ,i will test 40 to 1 also see if good enough and runs any different . i had a malfunction at 50 to 1 once in a high compression saw ,will not use that ratio in a hopped up one anymore .Stock i would not worry about 50 to 1 though .I have steered away from this brand for years because of the 100 to 1 bs ,a few timber fallers have been running it 50 to 1 around here i talked to ,and like it better than the stihl ultra .


Used it a good bit. No problems. I use to race it in my ported Mercury 260hp Pro max drag motor


----------



## Deleted member 83629

loggers here run amsoil at 64:1 in there saws and they say it works fine, i sure wont do it.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> View attachment 449103
> .View attachment 449103
> 
> Used it a good bit. No problems. I use to race it at 32to1 in my ported Mercury 260hp Pro max drag motor


how did you like the belray mineral 2T Keith?


----------



## svk

Trx250r180 said:


> I have steered away from this brand for years because of the 100 to 1 bs


I don't live too far from where these guys are headquartered and let me tell you, some of the guys up here think they absolutely walk on water. Like if you took the awesomeness of a 362C-M and distilled it by 1000 times you might be approaching the awesomeness of their products. I just shake my head. I used their automotive oil and my mileage actually went down. Their 2 stroke oil worked fine but I mixed it at my normal ratios.


----------



## KG441c

When 


jakewells said:


> how did you like the belray mineral 2T Keith?


I bought the h1r they sent it first by mistake but told me to keep it. Ran it in my blower and weedeater with 0 issues but its like 700t motul in being an injection oil


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> loggers here run amsoil at 64:1 in there saws and they say it works fine, i sure wont do it.


I find amsoil is good for keeping the dust down on a gravel driveway.... however, I might run Dominator if I had to..


----------



## bwalker

svk said:


> I don't live too far from where these guys are headquartered and let me tell you, some of the guys up here think they absolutely walk on water. Like if you took the awesomeness of a 362C-M and distilled it by 1000 times you might be approaching the awesomeness of their products. I just shake my head. I used their automotive oil and my mileage actually went down. Their 2 stroke oil worked fine but I mixed it at my normal ratios.


If anyone thinks small companies like Amsoil, Lubegard and the like are going to come out with a cutting edge product your nuts. The majors have all the cutting edge additives and base oils tied up, because they are the ones that invent and develop them. Small blenders don't have access to these proprietary things until the patents run out. By which time they aren't so cutting edge. It's just a matter of dollars and cents.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I find amsoil is good for keeping the dust down on a gravel driveway.... however, I might run Dominator if I had to..


If you were mixing oil for just power equipment ,and not your bike also sharing the same fuel ,would your opinions differ at all ? I myself would not run stihl mix or the amsoil rated for saws with pump gas in my race 250r i had with around 50hp ,i would mix maxima 927 for it with vp fuel ,where my little saws seems like the bike oil is not needed with a 7-8 hp unit ? Thoughts ?


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> I believe it was Redbull's piston.


Maulhead


----------



## Moparmyway

mdavlee said:


> Maulhead


Now that rings a bell !!!
Thanks mdavlee !!!


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> If you were mixing oil for just power equipment ,and not your bike also sharing the same fuel ,would your opinions differ at all ? I myself would not run stihl mix or the amsoil rated for saws with pump gas in my race 250r i had with around 50hp ,i would mix maxima 927 for it with vp fuel ,where my little saws seems like the bike oil is not needed with a 7-8 hp unit ? Thoughts ?


No, not really. I have never been keen on the Amsoil company or their products. I will give credit where do and say their two cycle oils have gotten better over time.


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> My ported saws deserve better than a soot producing oil @ 50:1
> *The poor little darlings! LOL*
> 
> At least it isnt boat oil


I'm sure it's been used as one at some time or even as I speak.
Ta


----------



## Bwildered

KG441c said:


> Its the wrong kind of soft sooty carbon though that plugs things up though


That's not what I have seen with my own eyes, one of my associates who is full time logger & sawmiller & has used stihl HP at 50:1 in all his saws with ordinary 91 octane unleaded fuel, we will sometimes do a job together, I have checked out the exhaust colour & screens on his saws, there is vertualy no difference between our saws in the exhaust colour & the lack of buildup. Maybe you fellows use a exotic fuel which may give a different outcome & adds a unknown variable


----------



## Bwildered

Trx250r180 said:


> Has anyone else tried the sabre with all the chainsaw brands listed on the bottle before i mix some up ? None of the oils being talked about have chainsaw brands on the bottle .
> View attachment 449049


One would think they have tested to destruction their oils in those brands to make their ratio claims, in the grand scheme it's not very expensive, could it be marketing BS? that would be very very doubtful these days considering the penaltys involved. VW have just found out the hard way with penaltys in the billions, check for label claims in the next year for the fiddled claims.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The pictures in those tests and the ones other *** companies use are marketing bs IMO.
> The picture of Redbulls piston was after very few hours and it already looked like that.


And you yourself said that its normal to have carbon buildup on the piston crown & criticised the richness of mixes if a piston was clean, your giving hypocritical answers it seems.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> One would think they have tested to destruction their oils in those brands to make their ratio claims, in the grand scheme it's not very expensive, could it be marketing BS? that would be very very doubtful these days considering the penaltys involved. VW have just found out the hard way with penaltys in the billions, check for label claims in the next year for the fiddled claims.


The vw thing is totaly different. What VW did was use computer tricks to circumvent emmissions laws. Amsoil isn't stupid. In their fine print they always say something like "can be run at 100:1 if suggested by OEM". That's not verbatum, but there is always a qualifier.
I also doubt they have done much, if any testing in all the applications they list in the marketing. I have driven by the Amsoil building in superior and it's basicly a warehouse and packaging facility. It would appear they don't make anything themselves, just purchase from vendors.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> And you yourself said that its normal to have carbon buildup on the piston crown & criticised the richness of mixes if a piston was clean, your giving hypocritical answers it seems.


It is normal to have carbon on a piston, but the piston in question was ran for only a few tanks of gas. That level of carbon is very bad for that amount of run time. The mixture does look about perfect on that piston!
Btw I suspect the test for the Ultra marketing campaign was run at wide open throttle for the duration. A test like this very much favors a ashless oil like ultra. You can literally see the calcium/magnesium/zinc deposits on the pistons that were ran on the other stihl oils. Realistic conditions would make the test look much different.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The vw thing is totaly different. What VW did was use computer tricks to circumvent emmissions laws. Amsoil isn't stupid. In their fine print they always say something like "can be run at 100:1 if suggested by OEM". That's not verbatum, but there is always a qualifier.
> I also doubt they have done much, if any testing in all the applications they list in the marketing. I have driven by the Amsoil building in superior and it's basicly a warehouse and packaging facility. It would appear they don't make anything themselves, just purchase from vendors.


So what your saying is stihl & amsoil are complete liars & use deception to sell their oil products, please tell us more on how you can prove this besides driving past a warehouse & looking at some pictures?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> So what your saying is stihl & amsoil are complete liars & use deception to sell their products


They aren't lieing per se, but they are using deception that plays on people's ignorance.
Heck, Castrol, the maker of the two cycle oil you use marketed a car oil called syntec and advertised it as a synthetic. In reality it's just highly refined dino oil. If that's not deception, I don't know what is. Mobil actually took them to court on this and lost, which set in motion other oils companys, including Mobil to market highly refined dino oil as synthetic.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> It is normal to have carbon on a piston, but the piston in question was ran for only a few tanks of gas. That level of carbon is very bad for that amount of run time. The mixture does look about perfect on that piston!
> Btw I suspect the test for the Ultra marketing campaign was run at wide open throttle for the duration. A test like this very much favors a ashless oil like ultra. You can literally see the calcium/magnesium/zinc deposits on the pistons that were ran on the other stihl oils. Realistic conditions would make the test look much different.


One would think an intelligent company who isn't one dimensional would cycle conditions through the test & have many different ones including a 500hr WOT test to cover saws that do milling


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> They aren't lieing per se, but they are using deception that plays on people's ignorance.
> Heck, Castrol, the maker of the two cycle oil you use marketed a car oil called syntec and advertised it as a synthetic. In reality it's just highly refined dino oil. If that's not deception, I don't know what is. Mobil actually took them to court on this and lost, which set in motion other oils companys, including Mobil to market highly refined dino oil as synthetic.


So you can't prove anything by driving past a warehouse & looking at some pictures then?


----------



## mdavlee

Fuel does seem to make a big difference in the deposits left. A soaking wet piston is idling a lot of the tune is too rich.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> So you can't prove anything by driving past a warehouse & looking at some pictures then?


I can tell by the size and the lay out that they sure aren't refining oil there... and I can read the qualifiers on the bottle/ tech sheets.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> One would think an intelligent company who isn't one dimensional would cycle conditions through the test & have many different ones including a 500hr WOT test to cover saws that do milling


500 hours wide open doesn't simulate milling.. it simulates running 500 hours wide open.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Fuel does seem to make a big difference in the deposits left. A soaking wet piston is idling a lot of the tune is too rich.


I'm currently running my 036 and 021 on 93 non-E and my 660 on 110 octane to see if there's a significant difference of piston crown buildup. Both are mixed 32:1 using 800 off-road.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm currently running my 036 and 021 on 93 non-E and my 660 on 110 octane to see if there's a significant difference of piston crown buildup. Both are mixed 32:1 using 800 off-road.


The way gasoline is handled, IE pumped via pipeline back to back with diesel fuel and god knows what else fuel quality is an issue that can cause deposits and other issues. Ethanol stacked on top of this is another factor.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The way gasoline is handled, IE pumped via pipeline back to back with diesel fuel and god knows what else fuel quality is an issue that can cause deposits and other issues. Ethanol stacked on top of this is another factor.


The 93 non-E is from a dispenser coming from a typical underground storage tank at a gas station. The Sunoco 110 is in a sealed drum.


----------



## Ron660

036 side pic of piston I took today. I heard something rattling around inside the muffler......muffler screw came loose.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> The 93 non-E is from a dispenser coming from a typical underground storage tank at a gas station. The Sunoco 110 is in a sealed drum.


Storage is less of an issue than pipelines I believe.


----------



## Bwildered

Bwildered said: ↑
So you can't prove anything by driving past a warehouse & looking at some pictures then?



bwalker said:


> I can tell by the size and the lay out that they sure aren't refining oil there... and I can read the qualifiers on the bottle/ tech sheets.



I didnt think you could! But does that mean you now have super powers to see inside buildings with X-ray vision and have company knowledge to know what operations are done at what locations or what components are outsourced like many manufacturers commonly do, ( I used to work with German fellow who used to make windscreen wiper arms for BMW in a small shed in a small German village ) seems unbelievable to me when you think about it.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> 500 hours wide open doesn't simulate milling.. it simulates running 500 hours wide open.


Your right, it probably doesn't, milling wouldn't be as arduous as the test.


----------



## Bwildered

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 449199
> 
> 
> 036 side pic of piston I took today. I heard something rattling around inside the muffler......muffler screw came loose.


It was just trying to escape that oily black hole of Calcutta. LOL
Fankgst


----------



## Ron660

Bwildered said:


> It was just trying to escape that oily black hole of Calcutta. LOL
> Fankgst


It was very rich last time I used it cutting pecan limbs. I tuned it today.


----------



## Ilmater

bwalker said:


> If anyone thinks small companies like Amsoil, Lubegard and the like are going to come out with a cutting edge product your nuts. The majors have all the cutting edge additives and base oils tied up, because they are the ones that invent and develop them. Small blenders don't have access to these proprietary things until the patents run out. By which time they aren't so cutting edge. It's just a matter of dollars and cents.


Lubegard's ester is patented: https://www.google.com/patents/US5282989

It works extremely well. My equipment idles better on Lubegard than Mobil 1 racing, and I get zero exhaust spooge with Lubegard as opposed to M1R at the same ratio. RPM's and throttle response is at least as good with Lubegard vs M1 racing 2t. Go buy a bottle and try it for yourself. I'm considering sending one or more people here a quart for free if they agree to do extensive testing and report their results, just to prove a JASO FC/FD, premix only oil is irrelevant with respect to this product and could quite possibly perform worse than it. They don't care about getting it certified because as far as they are concerned, they manufactured a product in what they consider a niche market anyways, because they, like Mobil 1 back in 2007, know that 2 stroke is a dying market because of environmental bs. EPA would really like to *ban* 2 strokes nationwide if they could get away with it.

Lubegard has nowhere near the hype like Amsoil and many other lubricant manufacturers, they're not making outrageous claims like Amsoil like saying you can use a 100:1 or 80:1 ratio. In fact right on my bottles of LG it says the highest ratio it should be mixed at is 40:1. You'll find a lot of posts on numerous sites of people reporting engine seizures from using Amsoil Saber Pro.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I find amsoil is good for keeping the dust down on a gravel driveway..


 
You've sad the exact same thing about klotz ST, but you now say you run it in certain circumstances. At this point it's clear you have little interest in anything other than hearing your own voice. IMHO.

Run the oils I've recommended and move on for the love of God.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> You've sad the exact same thing about klotz ST, but you now say you run it in certain circumstances. At this point it's clear you have little interest in anything other than hearing your own voice. IMHO.
> 
> Run the oils I've recommended and move on for the love of God.


You have a poor memory. I said all along that I run Super techniplate at certain times....specifically for dune riding in my bike. I am not a fan of R50, but it appears to work well for you judging by your pics.


----------



## bwalker

Ilmater said:


> Lubegard's ester is patented: https://www.google.com/patents/US5282989
> 
> It works extremely well. My equipment idles better on Lubegard than Mobil 1 racing, and I get zero exhaust spooge with Lubegard as opposed to M1R at the same ratio. RPM's and throttle response is at least as good with Lubegard vs M1 racing 2t. Go buy a bottle and try it for yourself. I'm considering sending one or more people here a quart for free if they agree to do extensive testing and report their results, just to prove a JASO FC/FD, premix only oil is irrelevant with respect to this product and could quite possibly perform worse than it. They don't care about getting it certified because as far as they are concerned, they manufactured a product in what they consider a niche market anyways, because they, like Mobil 1 back in 2007, know that 2 stroke is a dying market because of environmental bs. EPA would really like to *ban* 2 strokes nationwide if they could get away with it.
> 
> Lubegard has nowhere near the hype like Amsoil and many other lubricant manufacturers, they're not making outrageous claims like Amsoil like saying you can use a 100:1 or 80:1 ratio. In fact right on my bottles of LG it says the highest ratio it should be mixed at is 40:1. You'll find a lot of posts on numerous sites of people reporting engine seizures from using Amsoil Saber Pro.


Lubegard's website is high on hype and low on info. That doesn't give me the warm and fuzzees.
From reading the patent it appears it's for a gear oil additive.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> You've sad the exact same thing about klotz ST, but you now say you run it in certain circumstances. At this point it's clear you have little interest in anything other than hearing your own voice. IMHO.
> 
> Run the oils I've recommended and move on for the love of God.


 And in case you wondering why I do run ST. It's because there is no replacement for castor in very high stress situations. Of the castor blends I have found that ST burns acceptably clean for what it is when you load it hard enough and long enough.
ST in a saw is a disaster and extremely dirty.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> And in case you wondering why I do run ST. It's because there is no replacement for castor in very high stress situations. Of the castor blends I have found that ST burns acceptably clean for what it is when you load it hard enough and long enough.
> ST in a saw is a disaster and extremely dirty.


Not really, and I and most others know the reason. I was referring to a post you made in a thread when you were arguing with Ralph Bragleytree I believe his name was.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Not really, and I and most others know the reason. I was referring to a post you made in a thread when you were arguing with Ralph Bragleytree I believe his name was.


I usually reserve that comment for Amsoil only. Although it's no secret I am not really a fan of Klotz. 
I may revaluate after seeing the piston pic you posted.


----------



## porsche965

"Lubegard has nowhere near the hype like Amsoil and many other lubricant manufacturers, they're not making outrageous claims like Amsoil like saying you can use a 100:1 or 80:1 ratio. In fact right on my bottles of LG it says the highest ratio it should be mixed at is 40:1. You'll find a lot of posts on numerous sites of people reporting engine seizures from using Amsoil Saber Pro."

I have a friend running three crews on Saber this year with no failures and states he will do close to $900,000 in tree service this year. I've seen records of his net close to 20% of gross sales in profit. All off of a "Driveway Oil" as quoted from someone on this thread. 

Amazing running on a "driveway oil" like Saber isn't it? He is using a Stihl line of multiples 661c, 441c and 201tcm. I am just amazed after listening to this thread that this can be even possible but see it with my own eyes. Simply amazing lol


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> "Lubegard has nowhere near the hype like Amsoil and many other lubricant manufacturers, they're not making outrageous claims like Amsoil like saying you can use a 100:1 or 80:1 ratio. In fact right on my bottles of LG it says the highest ratio it should be mixed at is 40:1. You'll find a lot of posts on numerous sites of people reporting engine seizures from using Amsoil Saber Pro."
> 
> I have a friend running three crews on Saber this year with no failures and states he will do close to $900,000 in tree service this year. I've seen records of his net close to 20% of gross sales in profit. All off of a "Driveway Oil" as quoted from someone on this thread.
> 
> Amazing running on a "driveway oil" like Saber isn't it? He is using a Stihl line of multiples 661c, 441c and 201tcm. I am just amazed after listening to this thread that this can be even possible but see it with my own eyes. Simply amazing lol


Sounds like he's having good luck with it..


----------



## KG441c

Like I said I have used it in high strung race outboards with no problems. Amsoil is a good oil


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Sounds like he's having good luck with it..


and what bad experiences have you had with it in your chainsaws that gives you the right to slag it off?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> and what bad experiences have you had with it in your chainsaws that gives you the right to slag it off?


My chainsaw expiereances are only good.


----------



## blsnelling

IMHO, Amsoil makes fantastic lubricants, some of the very best. I have used their oils, studied VOAs and UOAs, and even had a UOA done on 10W-30 with 10,000 miles on it and was still good to go. I have no reason to doubt the quality of their products. I hate their marketing as well, but that has nothing to do with their product quality.


----------



## bwalker

My ***** with them is mostly due to their marketing and the so called "dealers" that sell the stuff.
Years ago they used the three ball wear test to hawk two cycle oils, which is a test relevant to gear oils and completely not relevant to two cycles. They also made all kinds of claims in regards to meeting conflicting standards etc. I'd rather not give my dollars to a company that uses such a marketing scheme.
I get the same feeling from Lubegard. Sounds like a lot of " baffle em with bull shat" to me.


----------



## bwalker

10k OCI isn't that long with today's oils. I am running my Toyota Tacoma to 15k using Mobil 1 EL. And I also used UOA to determine if this interval was doable.


----------



## porsche965

I used Mobil 1 on the track in an air cooled engine to boot (which I'd be willing to bet none of you have ever done, but prove me wrong that you have lol) and it couldn't compare with the lab results from Amsoil. Not selling, just saying. And those were $45,000 engines, not a $1000 chainsaw lol.

Hey, if it's working what your using don't stop, but don't knock what you haven't sent oil samples in on or experienced in great length in the real world.

Stay safe.


----------



## porsche965

I pay no attention to what the lemmings do, as in marketing. Only facts and actual experience. I could care less how a company markets their products. So if marketing is so important to a person in a decision on a product that's pretty shallow wouldn't you say?

I believe nothing that I read or am told lol. That's what makes me an outlier. And also retired at 37 years old. Long time ago.

Don't trust any marketing, use products in your own real world experiences and press the limits to the edge of failure. Feel the fate and learn just how to hedge to the edge of disaster. This is a full life. Gain your own confidence through your own successes and the failures will never happen, or in a very low number that is meaningless.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I pay no attention to what the lemmings do, as in marketing. Only facts and actual experience. I could care less how a company markets their products. So if marketing is so important to a person in a decision on a product that's pretty shallow wouldn't you say?
> 
> I believe nothing that I read or am told lol. That's what makes me an outlier. And also retired at 37 years old. Long time ago.
> 
> Don't trust any marketing, use products in your own real world experiences and press the limits to the edge of failure. Feel the fate and learn just how to hedge to the edge of disaster. This is a full life. Gain your own confidence through your own successes and the failures will never happen, or in a very low number that is meaningless.


I would say it raises a flag when deception is used.


----------



## porsche965

Define deception.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I used Mobil 1 on the track in an air cooled engine to boot (which I'd be willing to bet none of you have ever done, but prove me wrong that you have lol) and it couldn't compare with the lab results from Amsoil. Not selling, just saying. And those were $45,000 engines, not a $1000 chainsaw lol.
> 
> Hey, if it's working what your using don't stop, but don't knock what you haven't sent oil samples in on or experienced in great length in the real world.
> 
> Stay safe.


What sort of engine are we talking about? A guy I know from another site had a turbo charged drag bike that I believe was aircooled and about the only thing it could live on was mobil delvac 1.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Define deception.


Using a test ment for gear oil to show their two cycle oil was superior to competitiors. Listing standards in their marketing that they have not been certified to, but inferring they are. For starters.


----------



## porsche965

930 turbo Air Cooled Porsche engine.  The crank alone is over $8500. My friend runs a Busa sport bike documented at 540HP on a dyno to the rear wheel with a Mits turbo. I know HP and success Bwalker.


----------



## porsche965

You are entering an arena you have absolutely no experience in. Be careful.


----------



## porsche965

This is a thread usable for chainsaw guys. Are there gear cases on chainsaws I haven't found yet? lol

You better stick with talking trash to chainsaw guys Bwalker. Those that can be fooled. Or I'll call you out with plane tickets and $ to see just what you actually know and can do  And not.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I pay no attention to what the lemmings do, as in marketing. Only facts and actual experience. I could care less how a company markets their products. So if marketing is so important to a person in a decision on a product that's pretty shallow wouldn't you say?
> 
> I believe nothing that I read or am told lol. That's what makes me an outlier. And also retired at 37 years old. Long time ago.
> 
> Don't trust any marketing, use products in your own real world experiences and press the limits to the edge of failure. Feel the fate and learn just how to hedge to the edge of disaster. This is a full life. Gain your own confidence through your own successes and the failures will never happen, or in a very low number that is meaningless.


Btw, you have thrown out the retired by 37 thing a few times. May I ask what your profession was? Good on you BTW.


----------



## porsche965

Bwalker, stick to your poor testing of a 50cc chainsaw video and thread that you posted. That is more your speed.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> This is a thread usable for chainsaw guys. Are there gear cases on chainsaws I haven't found yet? lol
> 
> You better stick with talking trash to chainsaw guys Bwalker. Those that can be fooled. Or I'll call you out with plane tickets and $ to see just what you actually know and can do  And not.


What I am saying is they used the falex test to sell oils that were not gear oils.. and that's my point. There are not gear cases that run on two cycle oil.


----------



## porsche965

Over 8000 clients in 6 states. International import/export business and food service. All before the internet so good luck with your internet searches. You remind me of Obama, without a screen you have a very shallow experience level. But that's fine, just don't step into where the big dogs run.


----------



## porsche965

I've got Shanghai at 4am in the morning. Need to study some and rest. 

Bwalker, show results of YOUR testing and experiences, not just the internet or others experiences and it will bring validity to your statements, otherwise I enjoy challenging you or even wagering with you off site if you want. Bring your mortgage


----------



## KenJax Tree

You guys are outta my league now....i use oil in ***, my dirt bike, and snowmobile and know what has worked for me other than that i'm out[emoji1]


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Over 8000 clients in 6 states. International import/export business and food service. All before the internet so good luck with your internet searches. You remind me of Obama, without a screen you have a very shallow experience level. But that's fine, just don't step into where the big dogs run.


I have no desire to verify your claims.. and I don't have a mortgage


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I have no desire to verify your claims.. and I don't have a mortgage



That's even better, I don't have to deal with a bank


----------



## redbull660

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-880-72-cannon-bar-video.286244/#post-5546529

boat oil can't be all bad! ported 880 at 12k 72" bar full comp 404 chain  boat oil motor cycle oil neither designed around a chainsaw


----------



## blsnelling

I have one question. Why?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> My chainsaw expiereances are only good.


so you just slag an oil off you don't like or have may never used without any ill effects for what seems to be the fun of it? that just doesn't seem right to me!


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Using a test ment for gear oil to show their two cycle oil was superior to competitiors. Listing standards in their marketing that they have not been certified to, but inferring they are. For starters.


you fears about deception are unfounded, the three or fourball testing covers many other parameters in oils, including wear & co efficient of friction values, 2 stroke engines have ball & roller bearings in them so its relevant. ref lubricant properties analysis & testing. Technip Paris


----------



## Bwildered

porsche965 said:


> I've got Shanghai at 4am in the morning. Need to study some and rest.
> 
> Bwalker, show results of YOUR testing and experiences, not just the internet or others experiences and it will bring validity to your statements, otherwise I enjoy challenging you or even wagering with you off site if you want. Bring your mortgage


 an old chinese proverb goes " if you want to run with the big dogs you have to learn to pi** on big trees


----------



## jmssaws

I work on saws everyday not gillion dollar car motors, and those saws i work on everyday are very seldom ever there to b worked on because of what oil was mixed in the gas or at wich ratio. U guys must b in a higher class of chainsaw user cause around here oil is the least of are problems, never cleaning the airfilter will get a stihl long before 50:1 will.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-880-72-cannon-bar-video.286244/#post-5546529
> 
> boat oil can't be all bad! ported 880 at 12k 72" bar full comp 404 chain  boat oil motor cycle oil neither designed around a chainsaw


As far as running, they will run on any oil, but long term deposits and wear are what I question.

I have seen pictures of the skirts of pistons, plus seen on my own from *** that was run on TCW-3 oils ............. horrible !!
They all ran, yes ........... but there were lots of burnt crud in the rings and the skirts after the season was over and the machines were looked at.

I have seen more stuck rings from *** that was run on TCW-3 oil in customers equipment than from anything else in my 40 years of working on this stuff.

I have seen TCW-3 oil clog up exhaust ports on lower RPM *** as well as clog up ring lands and burn the skirts.

I have yet to see any *** with clogged ring lands that was run on "air cooled" 2 cycle oils.

To me, if I am going to fork over any of my hard earned money for 2 cycle oil, its going to be used for purchasing something that wont throw me 2 steps backwards.

I look forward to seeing this 088 after you have a few dozen tanks through it ............. specifically, I would love to see pictures of inside the muffler looking at the ring lands and piston skirt through the exhaust port


----------



## jmssaws

If it's like any stihl I know it will eat the intake skirt off from poor filtration


----------



## Moparmyway

jmssaws said:


> If it's like any stihl I know it will eat the intake skirt off from poor filtration



You must not know the "right" Stihls


----------



## jmssaws

I'd say that's right. I run the best oil i can get, never have used stihl oil, i take to many of them apart that's bn run on it.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> you fears about deception are unfounded, the three or fourball testing covers many other parameters in oils, including wear & co efficient of friction values, 2 stroke engines have ball & roller bearings in them so its relevant. ref lubricant properties analysis & testing. Technip Paris


The test in question are not industry accepted standards for testing two cycle oil. In fact when people started to bring this up the "tests" were removed.
The falex test measures EP properties, which isn't remotely relevant to a two cycle.


----------



## bwalker

jmssaws said:


> If it's like any stihl I know it will eat the intake skirt off from poor filtration


The filters as found on the 440 and 460 will get dirty, but still filter very well. The filters on the 260 and 360 suck. Can't speak for the other as I haven't owned them.


----------



## jmssaws

I'm mainly talking about a 660.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> so you just slag an oil off you don't like or have may never used without any ill effects for what seems to be the fun of it? that just doesn't seem right to me!


Your making assumptions and false ones at that.


----------



## hardpan

blsnelling said:


> IMHO, Amsoil makes fantastic lubricants, some of the very best. I have used their oils, studied VOAs and UOAs, and even had a UOA done on 10W-30 with 10,000 miles on it and was still good to go. I have no reason to doubt the quality of their products. I hate their marketing as well, but that has nothing to do with their product quality.



Ditto. I have been using Amsoil in my cars and trucks for several years with outstanding results. I have never seen such wide swings in opinions, love or hate. I can't help but wonder if the extreme negatives are based on failures with the 100:1 or 80:1 usage. If Amsoil threw out that verbage and stated something more sensible and still competitive like 50:1 would they have a much better reputation? I'm guessing they would. It would be interesting to hear porsche965's friend give his testimonial.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Your making assumptions and false ones at that.


did you see the question mark at the end, it was a question based on your answers & responses to questions regarding oils, not an assumption.


----------



## bwalker

hardpan said:


> Ditto. I have been using Amsoil in my cars and trucks for several years with outstanding results. I have never seen such wide swings in opinions, love or hate. I can't help but wonder if the extreme negatives are based on failures with the 100:1 or 80:1 usage. If Amsoil threw out that verbage and stated something more sensible and still competitive like 50:1 would they have a much better reputation? I'm guessing they would. It would be interesting to hear porsche965's friend give his testimonial.


They actually do state something more sensible now.
If Saber is no cheaper than Dominator, I would probaly just go with the latter.


----------



## KenJax Tree

No rust protection in Dominator though? It says not to use it in boats. Not that a saw is exposed to much water.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> No rust protection in Dominator though? It says not to use it in boats. Not that a saw is exposed to much water.


That's because it's on aircooled type oil formulation wise and not suitable for use in boats.
Ester based oils also are not known to be great storage lubricants. Some are better than others in this regard.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> The test in question are not industry accepted standards for testing two cycle oil. In fact when people started to bring this up the "tests" were removed.
> The falex test measures EP properties, which isn't remotely relevant to a two cycle.


thats rubbish! the test is for lubricating properties of any oil for anti wear & EP properties, its covered on page 195 of the referenced book, read it for yourself.


----------



## Bwildered

KenJax Tree said:


> No rust protection in Dominator though? It says not to use it in boats. Not that a saw is exposed to much water.


they are around here, we've had an average rainfall of 3.5m ( 137inches ) for the last ten years. LOL


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> they are around here, we've had an average rainfall of 3.5m ( 137inches ) for the last ten years. LOL


I thought Aus was in a long term drought?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> thats rubbish! the test is for lubricating properties of any oil for anti wear & EP properties, its covered on page 195 of the referenced book, read it for yourself.


Of gear oils..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Of gear oils..


no! any oil, and the four ball test was actually designed to to test hydraulic oil, thats explained a couple of pages before hand of the page mentioned. gear oils just have better EP properties


----------



## bwalker

EP isn't relevant to two cycle engines and the falex tests are not industry accepted methods for testing two cycle oil.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I thought Aus was in a long term drought?


thats the hype the climate alarmists would want you to believe


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> no! any oil, and the four ball test was actually designed to to test hydraulic oil, thats explained a couple of pages before hand of the page mentioned. gear oils just have better EP properties


Should have added greases too..


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> thats the hype the climate alarmists would want you to believe


A few years ago I read a article on how the Murray - Darling basin was going dry. I assume your near this area?


----------



## KenJax Tree

137 inches of rain? We get that much snow[emoji3]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> 137 inches of rain? We get that much snow[emoji3]


Double that number in snow for a normal year for us...


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> Double that number in snow for a normal year for us...


You're way farther north that i am, but thats good keep it all in the U.P.


----------



## jmssaws

I've ran dominator a good bit with no I'll effects.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> EP isn't relevant to two cycle engines and the falex tests are not industry accepted methods for testing two cycle oil.


so far what you have come up with is details about the oils which in your opinion maybe irrelevant, but deceptive, no!


----------



## Bwildered

KenJax Tree said:


> 137 inches of rain? We get that much snow[emoji3]


well we would get 1781 inches of snow then. 1 inch of rain = 13 inches of snow
tanks


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> so far what you have come up with is details about the oils which in your opinion maybe irrelevant, but deceptive, no!


Yes, it is. The Average guy doesn't know what the falex test is used for, so it's misleading and deceptive to use it to hawk oils.
And it's the same thing with listing standards in their marketing that they are not certified to with no qualifiers. Some one looks at it and actually thinks they are certified.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> well we would get 1781 inches of snow then. 1 inch of rain = 13 inches of snow
> tanks


That would depend on the area. The lake effect snow we get is very heavy and wet compared to what they get in a place like the rocky mountains.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Yes, it is. The Average guy doesn't know what the falex test is used for, so it's misleading and deceptive to use it to hawk oils.
> And it's the same thing with listing standards in their marketing that they are not certified to with no qualifiers. Some one looks at it and actually thinks they are certified.


if they had done some thing legally deceptive they would have been penalised for it & that would be on public record if it was so, so if you'd like to produce some evidence it would be nice instead of opinion.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> That would depend on the area. The lake effect snow we get is very heavy and wet compared to what they get in a place like the rocky mountains.


it would still a be a lot of snow in anybodies language what ever average is used.
you fellows couldn't imagine it, up to 800mm ( 31 inches ) of rain in 4 hrs


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> A few years ago I read a article on how the Murray - Darling basin was going dry. I assume your near this area?


no thats inland & mainly dry savannah country


----------



## blsnelling

Why would anyone use TC-W3 in any chainsaw, let alone a ported $2000 saw? I mean, the manual specifically says not to. How much more reason do you need? I don't care who uses it. I see no reason to try and prove general knowledge as wrong, especially when there are so many fantastic options available. Obviously, it's not like you're on a budget or are using 55 gallon drums of oil/year. It's not like you're in the jungle and don't have anything else. Why would you go to all the trouble and expense to test oils, if you don't care any more about your equipment than to run the one kind of oil explicitly told not to run by the manufacture? Why risk it?


----------



## KenJax Tree

How will anyone ever know which oil is the absolute best? I use Pro Honda HP2 40:1 and no idea if its appropriate to run in a saw. Trial and error i guess.


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> As far as running, they will run on any oil, but long term deposits and wear are what I question.
> 
> I have seen pictures of the skirts of pistons, plus seen on my own from *** that was run on TCW-3 oils ............. horrible !!
> They all ran, yes ........... but there were lots of burnt crud in the rings and the skirts after the season was over and the machines were looked at.
> 
> I have seen more stuck rings from *** that was run on TCW-3 oil in customers equipment than from anything else in my 40 years of working on this stuff.
> 
> I have seen TCW-3 oil clog up exhaust ports on lower RPM *** as well as clog up ring lands and burn the skirts.
> 
> I have yet to see any *** with clogged ring lands that was run on "air cooled" 2 cycle oils.
> 
> To me, if I am going to fork over any of my hard earned money for 2 cycle oil, its going to be used for purchasing something that wont throw me 2 steps backwards.
> 
> I look forward to seeing this 088 after you have a few dozen tanks through it ............. specifically, I would love to see pictures of inside the muffler looking at the ring lands and piston skirt through the exhaust port


If Scott's been running it for years it must be pretty good stuff. I'm sure he wouldn't run oil that would gum up his stuff in a short time.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Im been running motul 800 off road and i really like it mixed at 50:1 burns clean and leaves a film of oil on the piston, ME thinks i will stick with it the bike shop has it on sale till the 1st of October. I plan to go back and get 6 more liters since the price per liter right now is 15$ i currently got 2 liters of it.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> if they had done some thing legally deceptive they would have been penalised for it & that would be on public record if it was so, so if you'd like to produce some evidence it would be nice instead of opinion.


Deceptive marketing isn't against the law. It goes on all the time!


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Why would anyone use TC-W3 in any chainsaw, let alone a ported $2000 saw? I mean, the manual specifically says not to. How much more reason do you need? I don't care who uses it. I see no reason to try and prove general knowledge as wrong, especially when there are so many fantastic options available. Obviously, it's not like you're on a budget or are using 55 gallon drums of oil/year. It's not like you're in the jungle and don't have anything else. Why would you go to all the trouble and expense to test oils, if you don't care any more about your equipment than to run the one kind of oil explicitly told not to run by the manufacture? Why risk it?


That sums up my opinion to using boat oil in a saw!


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> Im been running motul 800 off road and i really like it mixed at 50:1 burns clean and leaves a film of oil on the piston, ME thinks i will stick with it the bike shop has it on sale till the 1st of October. I plan to go back and get 6 more liters since the price per liter right now is 15$ i currently got 2 liters of it.


15 a liter isn't a bad price. It's much more money here..


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> How will anyone ever know which oil is the absolute best? I use Pro Honda HP2 40:1 and no idea if its appropriate to run in a saw. Trial and error i guess.


Who cares? High quality is high quality. And likely you would not find an oil that was the absolute best across all operating conditions, because twp cycle oils are always a compromise.


----------



## Trx250r180

Looked on Amsoil's site ,my take on Dominator is it is an injector oil for snowmobiles that can be used as premix in bikes also with no fuel stabilizers in the description i could see ,the Sabre cost a buck more a quart ,and is a premix only with fuel stabilizers designed for chainsaws right in the description . I have equipment that sits sometimes ,the stabilizer thing is important for a lawn tool ,my weedeater's and lawn equipment sit all winter also ,so less carb problems in the spring is important also .Am not promoting the stuff by no means ,just reading up on the differences before i try some out . I am curious how clean the piston and plug and jug will be with the stuff vs the dirt bike oils ,the mobil and dumonde tech dirt bike oils actually cleaned black residue out of my saws .


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Looked on Amsoil's site ,my take on Dominator is it is an injector oil for snowmobiles that can be used as premix in bikes also with no fuel stabilizers in the description i could see ,the Sabre cost a buck more a quart ,and is a premix only with fuel stabilizers designed for chainsaws right in the description . I have equipment that sits sometimes ,the stabilizer thing is important for a lawn tool ,my weedeater's and lawn equipment sit all winter also ,so less carb problems in the spring is important also .Am not promoting the stuff by no means ,just reading up on the differences before i try some out . I am curious how clean the piston and plug and jug will be with the stuff vs the dirt bike oils ,the mobil and dumonde tech dirt bike oils actually cleaned black residue out of my saws .


Interceptor is the snowmobile injection oil. Dominator is a dedicated pre mix oil. The sleds they mention on the product sheet for Dominator are pre mix engines.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Interceptor is the snowmobile injection oil. Dominator is a dedicated pre mix oil. The sleds they mention on the product sheet for Dominator are pre mix engines.


Personally I do not want fuel stabilizers in my oil. I will add them as needed.


----------



## Trx250r180

*Applications*
DOMINATOR® is recommended for use in high-performance stock or modified two-cycle engines, including air- or liquidcooled snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles (moto X), ATVs, go-carts and outboard motors*. Good for use with coated or non-coated pistons, high-octane racing fuels and exhaust power valves. Compatible with most other two-stroke oils; however, mixing oils should be minimized.

Use in oil-injected and pre-mix applications where API TC oils are specified. In pre-mix applications, DOMINATOR delivers outstanding protection at 50:1 (2.6 oz. oil per U.S. gallon of gas), although many racers modify the mix ratio to suit their setup. Not suitable for use with alcohol or nitro-methane fuels.

* Not suitable for long-term use in outboard motors as a TC-W3-type oil, although excellent as a race oil for short-term use where motors are periodically inspected.

Jet skis and boats and injectors ........BOAT OIL !!! lol


----------



## bwalker

It's really not boat oil. Missed the injector blurb.
Jets skis actually use low ash, aircooled type oils.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> It's really not boat oil. Missed the injector blurb.


I know just trying to make this thread not so stuffy


----------



## nitehawk55

Geez BW , I don't think you like anything . With as many of your posts in this thread you really haven't said anything of merit to contribute , it's mostly all negative in your eyes if someone says good of it .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Geez BW , I don't think you like anything . With as many of your posts in this thread you really haven't said anything of merit to contribute , it's mostly all negative in your eyes if someone says good of it .


That's not true at all... what have you said of merit?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Deceptive marketing isn't against the law. It goes on all the time!


deception in business is illegal in any form & deception is what VW are allegedly being nailed for, to accuse a company of something that hasn't been proven to be illegally deceptive wouldn't be the brightest move you could make, but keep it up, they may like to make an example of you.


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> That's not true at all... what have you said of merit?



I've said all I needed to , at least I know when to stop .


----------



## Bwildered

mdavlee said:


> If Scott's been running it for years it must be pretty good stuff. I'm sure he wouldn't run oil that would gum up his stuff in a short time.


the quoted stihl literature on not running those oils is quite new & hasn't even been updated on their website, which today says you can run other non specific oils at there quoted ratio maximum of 25:1, i know guys that have run & still do run diesel engine oil as 2t lubricant at 25:1 for 35 years with no problems other than the top ends wear out before the bottom end ( and no wonder with double the burned abrasive carbon byproduct going through it ).
tansk


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> It's really not boat oil. Missed the injector blurb.
> Jets skis actually use low ash, aircooled type oils.


thats a good one! an oil that can be used in a boat that isn't a boat oil that fits the description of a other multipurpose oils that you said can't be used in boats.
to think you would have trouble telling the difference between arthur, marther, or captain Mccarther is an understatement


----------



## KenJax Tree

[emoji23]


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> deception in business is illegal in any form & deception is what VW are allegedly being nailed for, to accuse a company of something that hasn't been proven to be illegally deceptive wouldn't be the brightest move you could make, but keep it up, they may like to make an example of you.


Vw, is being nailed for fraud. There is a differance.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> thats a good one! an oil that can be used in a boat that isn't a boat oil that fits the description of a other multipurpose oils that you said can't be used in boats.
> to think you would have trouble telling the difference between arthur, marther, or captain Mccarther is an understatement


Did you read the link...says not to use it in a boat! Chew gum and walk much? I thinks not!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> the quoted stihl literature on not running those oils is quite new & hasn't even been updated on their website, which today says you can run other non specific oils at there quoted ratio maximum of 25:1, i know guys that have run & still do run diesel engine oil as 2t lubricant at 25:1 for 35 years with no problems other than the top ends wear out before the bottom end ( and no wonder with double the burned abrasive carbon byproduct going through it ).
> tansk


My owners manual says it and it's from 2011..


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> I've said all I needed to , at least I know when to stop .


In other words, no.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Vw, is being nailed for fraud. There is a differance.


maybe they have to use the word fraud in your local rag for the intended audience instead to using deception which has the same meaning! LOL
"Fraud, in the ordinary sense of the word, connotes dishonesty, deception, trickery ... The legal meaning of fraud also does not adequately describe some of the ..."


----------



## nitehawk55

bwalker said:


> In other words, no.



You prove my point , you just can't let it go , nor can you stop .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> You prove my point , you just can't let it go , nor can you stop .


And you prove my point..


----------



## nitehawk55

You spend way too much time on here BW , shut the computer off and back away from it !


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Did you read the link...says not to use it in a boat! Chew gum and walk much? I thinks not!


chew gum & walk is beyond me, finding an invisible link is too! reading though is not a problem! " * Not suitable for long-term use in outboard motors as a TC-W3-type oil, although excellent as a race oil for short-term use where motors are periodically inspected. " LOL


----------



## Deleted member 83629

this thread is almost as beat as my woman's hoochie.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Why do i suddenly have the image of a Big Montana from Arby's[emoji52]


----------



## big t double

jakewells said:


> this thread is almost as beat as my woman's hoochie.


You got pics of this beat hoochie?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

big t double said:


> You got pics of this beat hoochie?


that isn't a fair question and my answer would get me in trouble and i would be at ban camp.


----------



## big t double

jakewells said:


> that isn't a fair question and my answer would get me in trouble and i would be at ban camp.


Well how bout this...we'll both present pics of beaten wife hoochie (mine chit two kids out hers) and we can enjoy ban camp together. We'll have beers and talk about the good ol days.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i would have been married but she left me two years ago she said i wasn't good enough for her................ well


----------



## Bwildered

i just want to see a womans hoochie, whatever it is, over here a hoochie is something the army gives you to to sleep under in the pouring rain, which is about as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike in keeping you dry.
fangst


----------



## smokey7

I know my skis call for tcw11 or equivalent. I can pull the cover off and take a picture of the decal on the hull right next to the fill cap. A low ash oil would be fine in it since it never runs at a steady speed.


----------



## one.man.band

/


----------



## big t double

jakewells said:


> i would have been married but she left me two years ago she said i wasn't good enough for her................ well


Ouch. Sorry man.


----------



## Jimbo209

jakewells said:


> Im been running motul 800 off [email protected] 15$ i currently got 2 liters of it.


Can we agree on a number of different products that depending on price people should be happy to run.
I'll start
I think I saw that oil for $29 here in west aus shelf price, hope to get better than that though


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> this thread is almost as beat as my woman's hoochie.


That would be dependant on the woman your running with..​


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> I know my skis call for tcw11 or equivalent. I can pull the cover off and take a picture of the decal on the hull right next to the fill cap. A low ash oil would be fine in it since it never runs at a steady speed.


They originally did, along with snowmobiles. This changed sometime in the late 90's. There are threads all over the internet on this particular subject.


----------



## smokey7

So do you think a low ash oil should be used or a tcw111 in a modded piped ported squished 1990 550sx ski? I have been running amsoil saber at 32:1 to now 40:1. It burns real clean and seems to protect real well. All parts look great after 3 hard seasons on the top end.


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> So do you think a low ash oil should be used or a tcw111 in a modded piped ported squished 1990 550sx ski? I have been running amsoil saber at 32:1 to now 40:1. It burns real clean and seems to protect real well. All parts look great after 3 hard seasons on the top end.


I woukd not use a TCW3 oil in anything except a outboard motor or a Lawnboy mower.


----------



## bwalker

I have had really great luck with Citgo Sea and Snow in skis and sleds. I use to buy it for 8.99 a gallon at Meijer's in the early 00's.


----------



## smokey7

Ok good to know my engine builder/race mechanic friend said either or would be fine. I guess i will have to try something else. I did like citgo aircooled oil when i ran it but it was so cheap i felt bad. Is sea and snow a synthetic or a synthetic blend


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> Ok good to know my engine builder/race mechanic friend said either or would be fine. I guess i will have to try something else. I did like citgo aircooled oil when i ran it but it was so cheap i felt bad. Is sea and snow a synthetic or a synthetic blend


Its a blend. Don't feel bad, it's good stuff.


----------



## smokey7

I see i can order it in qts and gallons really cheap


----------



## KG441c

Wonder what this Stihl 064 I opened last night ran on?


----------



## smokey7

Why was that torn down? Also how many hours and type of use did it run.


----------



## KG441c

Dont appear to be high hr but poor quality oil and maybe ran lean. Cylinder is ok


----------



## Bwildered

smokey7 said:


> Why was that torn down? Also how many hours and type of use did it run.


probably just torn down to show a huski owner what a saw should look like after a couple of thousand hours of trouble free use without ever having a spanner put on it! before being lent to some one who stuffed in one afternoon LOL
thangst


----------



## KG441c

smokey7 said:


> Why was that torn down? Also how many hours and type of use did it run.


Im not sure on the use and type. Friend at work found it in a shed and ask if id like it!! Lol!! Id never run a saw with that much carbon in it but it will be redone to like new, ported, and put in my little saw stash


----------



## bwalker

I just seen a quarts of Sea AND Snow for sale for $5.99. And it's an FD certified oil.


----------



## KenJax Tree

C'mon Keith, send this thread into orbit and say it was run on K2 40:1[emoji23]


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> C'mon Keith, send this thread into orbit and say it was run on K2 40:1[emoji23]


Chris Id be lying if I said I knew! Lol! Dont think the guy that gave it to me will know either but Id be willing to bet Stihl orange bottle


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ok as far as rust/corrosion during storage which of these is good and which isn't.
Pro Honda HP2
Yamalube 2R
Amsoil Dominator
I use my blower for light snow so i like to keep it full but may not use it much so which of these oils i have protects the best.


----------



## Trx250r180

I would not use a racing branded oil for a storage oil ,most do not have stabilizers and extra additives

This is the only company i have seen that sells an oil made for storage ,or just mix reg oil 20 to 1 if storing 

http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/two-stroke-break-in-storage-oil/


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> View attachment 449654
> View attachment 449655
> View attachment 449656
> View attachment 449656
> View attachment 449657
> Wonder what this Stihl 064 I opened last night ran on?


Probably cheapest he could find


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Probably cheapest he could find


Deleted head gasket and stuck cylinder back on and check squish. .028. Pop 175psi compression with a .028!! Alil squish cutting and she will be strong!


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Deleted head gasket and stuck cylinder back on and check squish. .028. Pop 175psi compression with a .028!! Alil squish cutting and she will be strong!


Why did it stop running?


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> Why did it stop running?


Dont know that it had. Guy just found it like this


----------



## KenJax Tree

Trx250r180 said:


> I would not use a racing branded oil for a storage oil ,most do not have stabilizers and extra additives
> 
> This is the only company i have seen that sells an oil made for storage ,or just mix reg oil 20 to 1 if storing
> 
> http://dumondetech.com/portfolio/two-stroke-break-in-storage-oil/


It won't be completely stored, i will use it but it might sit for a month or 2 months in between uses.

I guess i should've said which one can sit for a month or so and not corrode anything.


----------



## smokey7

Where did you find it at that price? I can gwt gallons for 18.00 but gotta buy 4 at a time.


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> It won't be completely stored, i will use it but it might sit for a month or 2 months in between uses.
> 
> I guess i should've said which one can sit for a month or so and not corrode anything.


I have had a saw sit 6-9 months with h1r in it ,and it was fine ,started right up ,i would think at 32 to 1 just let it idle for a couple minutes to coat stuff good ,and you be good to go .


----------



## Jimbo209

KG441c said:


> Deleted head gasket and stuck cylinder back on and check squish. .028. Pop 175psi compression with a .028!! Alil squish cutting and she will be strong!


Gees Now this has aspects of a build thread, it is becoming like some of the multi purpose oils mentioned


----------



## redbull660

boat oil 32:1 aka schaeffers 7000 tcw3

this 661 has only been run on schaeffers 32:1 ...so this is after the first 6 tanks. Been cutting with a 30" tsumura .404 chain


ported 880 run on the schaeffers 32:1 12000 on the tach with a 6' bar


----------



## porsche965

You could lighten that ratio up a bit from those pics. 38:1 or so? Might find more performance in your 661


----------



## KG441c

How does the 661 do with the 404?


----------



## porsche965

Boat oil.... just don't add water RedBull.


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> How does the 661 do with the 404?



.404 is the SH*T !!!

just ask TRX

usually it's just as fast as 3/8ths...depends on the wood. Sure does stay sharp and last longer...can take a lot more abuse that's for sure.


----------



## Trx250r180

lot of soot for 6 tanks


----------



## redbull660

Trx250r180 said:


> lot of soot for 6 tanks



muffler wasn't new. This is my modded muff I put on...it has a lot of tanks from multi saws on it.


----------



## KG441c

Do u run full comp or skip? I wanna try 404 skip on 25" bar with my 390 for noodling


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> Do u run full comp or skip? I wanna try 404 skip on 25" bar with my 390 for noodling



full comp nice for cutting. self feeds easily.

RSLF is the cats meow on noodling. damn I wish I had a picture of the pile of firewood I've done for my friend. No splitter required. I just noodle it all.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> muffler wasn't new. This is my modded muff I put on...it has a lot of tanks from multi saws on it.


i was talking about the plug ,is darker than mine are on the electrode side ,maybe the 32 to 1 is too much on auto tune ?


----------



## KG441c

Where do u get the 404 skip?


----------



## Trx250r180

Yeah .404 square skip chain


----------



## porsche965

redbull660 said:


> muffler wasn't new. This is my modded muff I put on...it has a lot of tanks from multi saws on it.


That's why it don't match the plug. Thanks.


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> Yeah .404 square skip chain


You running it on the hybrids now? I'm getting ready to try it on an 044 and 046.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> You running it on the hybrids now? I'm getting ready to try it on an 044 and 046.


have been for a while ,works good


----------



## mdavlee

Trx250r180 said:


> have been for a while ,works good


Nice. I got a 25" and a 32" on the way.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> Nice. I got a 25" and a 32" on the way.


 Been running on the 32 inch bars ,have 4 bars and saws swapped over to it now


----------



## KG441c

What 404 bars u guys like?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> What 404 bars u guys like?


GB are cheap right now til they run out. Tsumura is the next easiest to get.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> You could lighten that ratio up a bit from those pics. 38:1 or so? Might find more performance in your 661



Sorry man you have no clue!! If these AT systems can't adjust to different oil and fuels they simply don't work, I know that's hard for some to admit.


----------



## Trx250r180

i just take my 3/8 tip bars .063 and change the tip and drive sprocket ,.404 uses same 3/8 bars i have


----------



## porsche965

Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry man you have no clue!!


Neither do you Andy. I've called you out before. And you retreat. Anytime pal.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Neither do you Andy. I've called you out before. And you retreat. Anytime pal.



?? What are you talking about? I've Offer to prove you and RB wrong and if I remember I even put up my ported 372. IMHO nearly everything you say is complete BS, others think the same I'm just not afraid saying so. Have you ever rebuilt or ported a saw, have you used one much of your life. I mean you think a saw should be tuned with the oil, that's absurd! a screwdriver is all I need. The AT systems are having issues end of story!

The quality of people on AS has gone so far down I rarely feel the need to post hear and have some know it all goofball argue with me about something they have Zero knowledge about.


----------



## porsche965

Crawl back into your hole Andy. Just because you don't feel well don't mean that you need to pick fights. You have changed your original posting 3 times now and the moderators know that. You may know what you read but I'll challenge you anytime to real work with a chainsaw and dialing in oil ratios. Anytime. And I wouldn't want a 372 chainsaw or any other saw you own that's for sure. Make my time worthwhile  Bring something of value. 

I'll send you a plane ticket bud. Bring all you have and a spatula to clean yourself up when we are done.

Just try being nice and not telling me I don't have a clue in your opening post that you edited now. Hide behind your edits like the man you're not. Let's go!


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Crawl back into your hole Andy. Just because you don't feel well don't mean that you need to pick fights. You have changed your original posting 3 times now and the moderators know that. You may know what you read but I'll challenge you anytime to real work with a chainsaw and dialing in oil ratios. Anytime. And I wouldn't want a 372 chainsaw or any other saw you own that's for sure. Make my time worthwhile  Bring something of value.
> 
> I'll send you a plane ticket bud. Bring all you have and a spatula to clean yourself up when we are done.
> 
> Just try being nice and not telling me I don't have a clue in your opening post that you edited now. Hide behind your edits like the man you're not. Let's go!



I edited my posts so what? I'm a poor speller. Buy me a plane ticket? Again you're full of it, and you obviously live in you're own little self inflated world.

Edit I added a period. instead of a ?


----------



## KG441c

Cmon guys. Play nice


----------



## porsche965

Spelling was correct, it was the content you edited. What a disappointment you are in life. 

Back to THIS THREAD. What can Andy and I do to have a run off? Let's bring what little I know to a woodlot and have Andy bring all that he knows and let's go to work together. Need to make it worth while to both of us as well. Any suggestions AS members? I'm in for an 8 hour day and production  Not some 1/2 hour of actual cookie cutting times. Let's strain the saws and oils. What do you say Andy?


----------



## KG441c

I never got any recommendations on 404 bars yall like? Mike showed me great deals on GB bars at Left Coast Supplies and Redbull says Tsumuras from Dave


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Cmon guys. Play nice



Some just c


porsche965 said:


> Spelling was correct, it was the content you edited. What a disappointment you are in life.
> 
> Back to THIS THREAD. What can Andy and I do to have a run off? Let's bring what little I know to a woodlot and have Andy bring all that he knows and let's go to work together. Need to make it worth while to both of us as well. Any suggestions AS members? I'm in for an 8 hour day and production  Not some 1/2 hour of actual cookie cutting times. Let's strain the saws and oils. What do you say Andy?



You know very well I simply can't do that physically, you're a self inflated POS.


----------



## KG441c

Trx what 404 bars r u using?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Cmon guys. Play nice



Sorry to get in involved with him but he's gotten under my skin for some time.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Spelling was correct, it was the content you edited. What a disappointment you are in life.



I have many friends and family that thinks otherwise. You are showing you're true colers IMHO.


----------



## porsche965

All I said was raise the ratio to 38:1 and that got under your skin little man Andy? 

You are what's under your own skin. Don't blame your life on me. And like I said, any time any place, let's play with some saws and oils, have fun, but you still might want to bring a spatula  I say what I say by what I experience with saws and production. Real world bud.


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Trx what 404 bars r u using?


Oregon lightweight


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry to get in involved with him but he's gotten under my skin for some time.


Ole Porsche was responsible for gettin me involved with saws 2 years ago with a 441c he had for sale on Ebay. He recommended AS to me and he ask me not to mention him on AS and he stayed quite for quite awhile on here until recently. He helped me with alota information getting started and has always treated me very good? I hate u guys r having a misunderstanding but both yall have great input here! Cmon fellows


----------



## porsche965

Thank you KG441c. AS site is a community but why the attacks? I don't get it. And calling me a POS from a guy living 4 hours away from me in Cincy and closer to my kin isn't a wise thing to do. But hey, we all make mistakes don't we? LOL.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> All I said was raise the ratio to 38:1 and that got under your skin little man Andy?
> 
> You are what's under your own skin. Don't blame your life on me. And like I said, any time any place, let's play with some saws and oils, have fun, but you still might want to bring a spatula  I say what I say by what I experience with saws and production. Real world bud.



You're in you're own little world. Bud? what are you 12?

Really I don't know why I even try to give any input here anymore, most of the good guys got tired of this internet crap and are long gone.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Thank you KG441c. AS site is a community but why the attacks? I don't get it. And calling me a POS from a guy living 4 hours away from me in Cincy and closer to my kin isn't a wise thing to do. But hey, we all make mistakes don't we? LOL.



Is that a threat??


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> You're in you're own little world. Bud? what are you 12?
> 
> Really I don't know why I even try to give any input here anymore, most of the good guys got tired of this internet crap and are long gone.


Some of us r still trying to gain knowledge though Andy. Brad recommended you for questions i had on oil and advice when I PM him before on oils. Obviously someone respects your opinions?


----------



## svk

Chill out guys. I don't have time to delete posts right now.


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Some of us r still trying to gain knowledge though Andy. Brad recommended you for questions i had on oil and advice when I PM him before on oils. Obviously someone respects your opinions?



Brad's a good guy and friend. Have a good one.


----------



## Andyshine77

svk said:


> Chill out guys. I don't have time to delete posts right now.



I really don't mind the name calling, but a stupid threat is a different story.


----------



## porsche965

I never threatened anyone. If someone read a threat from a post it's because their lives are indeed a lie and being exposed by competing and testing what they believe. 

Let's get back on track. This thread is about oil and ratios and everyone has a right to express their opinions. Calling someone a POS has no place here.


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> Trx what 404 bars r u using?


Stihl and oregon lights that a converted to .404 by changing the tips


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> Stihl and oregon lights that a converted to .404 by changing the tips


Great idea!! Do u have a part # for a 404 tip for an es light bar?


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> I never threatened anyone. If someone read a threat from a post it's because their lives are indeed a lie and being exposed by competing and testing what they believe.
> Calling someone a POS has no place here.



You know my health issues and you brought it up, and than asked me to go cutting 8 hours even though you knew that's impossible. That is an act of a POS.


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> Stihl and oregon lights that a converted to .404 by changing the tips


Heck I cant convert! My bars r .050


----------



## KenJax Tree

Sorry to hear of your health issues Andy...i hope it all gets better soon.


----------



## porsche965

KG441c said:


> Heck I cant convert! My bars r .050



I'm in the same boat with .50 

But you can't compare or comment unless you have both so looks like some bars and chains are in order.


----------



## porsche965

You have to admit Red Bull certainly has spent a lot of $ on chains and bars in testing, not to mention chainsaws, mainly 661s.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> You have to admit Red Bull certainly has spent a lot of $ on chains and bars in testing, not to mention chainsaws, mainly 661s.


No doubt about that.

How about we keep this thread civil from here on out? And no mention of retiring at 38..we all have heard that one enough!


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> No doubt about that.
> 
> How about we keep this thread civil from here on out? And no mention of retiring at 38..we all have heard that one enough!



Correction, 37. And I'm proud of that  And will agree if you will agree that Saber isn't just good for keeping dust down on a driveway lol


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> boat oil 32:1 aka schaeffers 7000 tcw3
> 
> this 661 has only been run on schaeffers 32:1 ...so this is after the first 6 tanks. Been cutting with a 30" tsumura .404 chain
> 
> 
> ported 880 run on the schaeffers 32:1 12000 on the tach with a 6' bar



Ill effects or lack there of are only revealed over time. 6 tanks isn't much time at all.
I'm not pissing in your cherios, just raising the issue.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Correction, 37. And I'm proud of that  And will agree if you will agree that Saber isn't just good for keeping dust down on a driveway lol


I'll have you know it works excellant for that purpose!
And I am sure you are proud, as you should be. Assuming you started from scratch, that's quit an accomplishment. However, no one wants it thrown in their face. And it's bad form to even mention in when your fighting on the Internet with people about two cycle oil.


----------



## porsche965

If the 6 tanks were at WOT under load that is good enough to get an idea of how the saw is running IMO.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> If the 6 tanks were at WOT under load that is good enough to get an idea of how the saw is running IMO.


Wont tell you much about the long term effects of using a tcw3 marine oil. It's appears to me it's running on the rich side FWIW without seeing the crown.


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I'll have you know it works excellant for that purpose!
> And I am sure you are proud, as you should be. Assuming you started from scratch, that's quit an accomplishment. However, no one wants it thrown in their face. And it's bad form to even mention in when your fighting on the Internet with people about two cycle oil.



I'm 38 and my days in a tree are about done[emoji106]


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I'm 38 and my days in a tree are about done[emoji106]


I'm 38 and plan on working for at least another 20. I like what I do and I get bored easy. May never retire completely.


----------



## porsche965

When the success of oil brought my success in life it is relevant. And form? Do you think for one moment I care about what you, bwalker, thinks about my form on a forum? Not for an instant. 

Now, how much Saber have you used on your driveway so I know how much a case of oil will yield? For dust that is.


----------



## bwalker

Back to **** head mode...


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> I'm 38 and plan on working for at least another 20. I like what I do and I get bored easy. May never retire completely.


Well i'm a long ways from retiring,[emoji2] im just gonna be an Operations Manager and run 6 different crews, so no more grunt work.

Back to oil[emoji23]


----------



## porsche965

I show people that work hard how to retire a lot sooner than later. For free. 

The Tree Service I cut for will do that before he is 45, maybe 48 at worst case scenario. Before I came along he was thinking how he was going to climb trees when he would be 60. There is a better way


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Wont tell you much about the long term effects of using a tcw3 marine oil. It's appears to me it's running on the rich side FWIW without seeing the crown.


True. But being a bit richer and coming from Tree Monkey one would think that longevity isn't a concern.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I show people that work hard how to retire a lot sooner than later. For free.
> 
> The Tree Service I cut for will do that before he is 45, maybe 48 at worst case scenario. Before I came along he was thinking how he was going to climb trees when he would be 60. There is a better way


Interesting.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> True. But being a bit richer and coming from Tree Monkey one would think that longevity isn't a concern.


Longetivity won't be a concern for 99% of the people on this site. However, I can't see the reason for using an oil designed and formulated for marine use in a chainsaw. There are many fine air cooled oils out there. Why not just use one?


----------



## KenJax Tree

porsche965 said:


> I show people that work hard how to retire a lot sooner than later. For free.
> 
> The Tree Service I cut for will do that before he is 45, maybe 48 at worst case scenario. Before I came along he was thinking how he was going to climb trees when he would be 60. There is a better way


Im all ears[emoji5]️


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Longetivity won't be a concern for 99% of the people on this site. However, I can't see the reason for using an oil designed and formulated for marine use in a chainsaw. There are many fine air cooled oils out there. Why not just use one?



Agree.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Agree.


In the same vain, I can't see the reason or advantage to running an oil designed to run at 100:1. I certainly don't see the attraction to using less lubricating oil in a total loss sytems that marginally lubricate anyways.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Well i'm a long ways from retiring,[emoji2] im just gonna be an Operations Manager and run 6 different crews, so no more grunt work.
> 
> Back to oil[emoji23]


Cool! Im sure u have earned it! Im to that point that only operating the D9 for me. No field work


----------



## porsche965

Is there any difference in motorcycle two stroke engines that are air cooled and water cooled and are there oils designated for each or just one grouping such as two stroke motorcycle oil?


----------



## porsche965

Don't get hung up on 100:1 since they offer other suggested ratios that can be used. Hand held blowers run around 8000 rpms and chainsaws of course up to 14,000 stock. I think that you have to adjust the ratio for the particular application.


----------



## bwalker

Really, there are no air cooled two cycle motorcycle engines in production. Maybe some of the smaller maker 50cc bikes.
Although it varries, typically motorcycle oils are designed for liquid cooled bikes. They are nearly always low ash type lubricants.


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Cool! Im sure u have earned it! Im to that point that only operating the D9 for me. No field work


That sounds like more fun than getting tree guys set up on jobs.[emoji1]


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Don't get hung up on 100:1 since they offer other suggested ratios that can be used. Hand held blowers run around 8000 rpms and chainsaws of course up to 14,000 stock. I think that you have to adjust the ratio for the particular application.


I'm not hung up on it. However trade offs need to be made to have an oil perform at 100:1.


----------



## bwalker

In regards to blowers. My Husky/Redmax 580 turns about 7k. The Redmax 8000 it replaced was about the same rpm wise.
Blowers also run under very little load and at constant throttle. If you could have an aircooled oil formulated with the additive package of a marine oil and run it at 50:1 or perhaps leaner it would be perfect. They simply don't get hot enough or see enough throttle transitions to use current air cooled oils IMO.


----------



## porsche965

Would you say motorcycle oils of years past were stronger than the oils today to operate the water cooled engines of today?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Would you say motorcycle oils of years past were stronger than the oils today to operate the water cooled engines of today?


Define stronger?


----------



## porsche965

Good question. An oil that can stand up to more severe circumstances, namely heat.


----------



## bwalker

Generally speaking oils of yesteryear, be they mineral, castor or synthetic where much more dirty. When I first started fooling with two strokes it was a necessity to carry.plugs with you because they fouled on a regular basis. I fouled a plug in my bike this year for the first time in probaly a decade. I can't even recall the last time I fouled a plug in anything else.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Good question. An oil that can stand up to more severe circumstances, namely heat.


I would say no with qualifiers.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I would say no with qualifiers.


I understand, but you sound like a Politician lol. No slight intended


----------



## bwalker

One other thing to consider is the output of a typical 250cc motocross two stroke doubled in a pretty short time. Oils also advanced pretty rapidly into the late 90's. After that point two cycle oil development was mostly driven by snowmobiles. It's stagnated for the last ten years as twoncycles are in the brink of extinction.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I understand, but you sound like a Politician lol. No slight intended


Qualifiers would be things like Castrol R40 from the 70's. There might be nothing on the market now that would protect against seizure as well.


----------



## gunnusmc03

This thread reminds me of the .GOV, 98% hot air, pork, and bull ****. 2% possibly useful information.


----------



## porsche965

gunnusmc03 said:


> This thread reminds me of the .GOV, 98% hot air, pork, and bull ****. 2% possibly useful information.


Any contributions we can use?


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Any contributions we can use?


Of course not..


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Good question. An oil that can stand up to more severe circumstances, namely heat.


If that's what your looking for I would look at either Maxima 927 or Klotz Super Techniplate. I chose the latter for certain situations. Never with *** though as its not needed and when running either there are downsides in cleanliness, corrosion protection, fuel seperation, etc that one must be aware of.


----------



## bwalker

Check this out and really digest what it's saying.


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Check this out and really digest what it's saying.


That was a good article.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Any contributions we can use?



Why would anyone bother at this point. The most valuable information was in the first few pages.

Boys I'm done! The overall atmosphere here on AS and other saw sites, as well as the quality of discussions is in the garbage, and has been for sometime now. The people in many cases are honestly not much better IMHO. At this point it's not worth argue or getting into it with people who have nothing better to do, and are obviously not worth one ounce of my time.

The day of exchanging real and valuable information is long gone, it's all about self promotion and bull headed egomaniacs.

Have fun boys.


----------



## porsche965

Goodluck to you Andy.


----------



## Andyshine77

porsche965 said:


> Goodluck to you Andy.



Get lost.


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> I look forward to seeing this 088 after you have a few dozen tanks through it ............. specifically, I would love to see pictures of inside the muffler looking at the ring lands and piston skirt through the exhaust port





redbull660 said:


> boat oil 32:1 aka schaeffers 7000 tcw3
> 
> this 661 has only been run on schaeffers 32:1 ...so this is after the first 6 tanks.



Have any other pictures ?


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Check this out and really digest what it's saying.



As I have heard you say many times before however this is coming from an oil manufacturer and their sales propaganda. I would like to know how they measure such precise % numbers of oil left in an engine? How do you harvest the oil and what measuring option are they using to come up with these %? I see that they say "approximately" leaving themselves an out from the absolute. 

Often time when you see % in a report it makes it more believable or when you post tenths of a percent most people draw the conclusion that their work is done with exact precision.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> As I have heard you say many times before however this is coming from an oil manufacturer and their sales propaganda. I would like to know how they measure such precise % numbers of oil left in an engine? How do you harvest the oil and what measuring option are they using to come up with these %? I see that they say "approximately" leaving themselves an out from the absolute.
> 
> Often time when you see % in a report it makes it more believable or when you post tenths of a percent most people draw the conclusion that their work is done with exact precision.


It was an in depth study they did. The pdf I posted was just a quick and dirty as I no longer have the full right up. The test was ran using radioactive isotopes. Not sure how the residual measurements were taken.
Irregardless the key point isn't what's left behind its how fast the oil moved through. If one wants their saw full of oil just idle it for a few minutes prior to shutdown.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> It was an in depth study they did. The pdf I posted was just a quick and dirty as I no longer have the full right up. The test was ran using radioactive isotopes. Not sure how the residual measurements were taken.
> Irregardless the key point isn't what's left behind its how fast the oil moved through. If one wants their saw full of oil just idle it for a few minutes prior to shutdown.


And this wasn't bs marketing either as they never mentioned specific oils.


----------



## bwalker

Pulled down my new ms 260 to do a base gasket delete and this what it looked like. Motul 800 and premium ethanol free fuel.


----------



## Trx250r180

Plug looks sooty,from idling ?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Pulled down my new ms 260 to do a base gasket delete and this what it looked like. Motul 800 and premium ethanol free fuel.[/ATTACH] View attachment 451331


crikey! with a piston top like that and you reckon stihl ultra is dirty, should have gone to specsavers! LOL i notice its that thick that its starting to peel off, might need a screen with bigger gaps for them to escape!


----------



## Moparmyway

Usually I see those flakes in the center of a piston that was ran hard for a short time and idled for longer periods.
The idling builds up some crud, the hard running starts the flaking, but not enough hard run time to remove all the flaking


----------



## porsche965

I've heard over and over again Ben that you have said it takes many many tanks of running to get an internal read on an oil/mix or when some sort of porting, even exhaust is made. 
What type of time do you have on this 260 without any changes made whatsoever to this saw?


----------



## porsche965

By the way most guys talk on here if I had a piston crown that looks like that I should hang myself.


----------



## KG441c

The carbon on the piston imo is normal and the saw has nice transfer wash also. I wouldnt care for the buildup starting in the exhaust though. Ben what did the ring lands look like?


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> By the way most guys talk on here if I had a piston crown that looks like that I should hang myself.


If there is no carbon on top of the piston it means u r way rich and washing the top of the piston or little run time


----------



## KG441c

Redbull anymore oil test lately?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Plug looks sooty,from idling ?


Very little idling. Saw was run pretty hard in wood that it was too small for most of the time.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Very little idling. Saw was run pretty hard in wood that it was too small for most of the time.


Plug didn't look that bad. The pics just isn't that great.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> The carbon on the piston imo is normal and the saw has nice transfer wash also. I wouldnt care for the buildup starting in the exhaust though. Ben what did the ring lands look like?


Perfecttly clean.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> By the way most guys talk on here if I had a piston crown that looks like that I should hang myself.


That's only because most of the guys that make those comments don't know how to tune a saw, nor what a piston should look like.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I've heard over and over again Ben that you have said it takes many many tanks of running to get an internal read on an oil/mix or when some sort of porting, even exhaust is made.
> What type of time do you have on this 260 without any changes made whatsoever to this saw?


Quit a bit.


----------



## bwalker

It's really too early to tell much, but the things that concern me is the flaking you see on the crown. That's ash build up. There was also some on the head near the decompression valve. The other area of concern is the fact this stuff needs to be run pretty hard to burn cleanly. In wood more appropriate for this saw I have no doubt the buildup in the exhaust woukd have been worse.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> It's really too early to tell much, but the things that concern me is the flaking you see on the crown. That's ash build up. There was also some on the head near the decompression valve. The other area of concern is the fact this stuff needs to be run pretty hard to burn cleanly. In wood more appropriate for this saw I have no doubt the buildup in the exhaust woukd have been worse.


The flaking is a result of the detergents trying to clean it?


----------



## KenJax Tree

bwalker said:


> It's really too early to tell much, but the things that concern me is the flaking you see on the crown. That's ash build up. There was also some on the head near the decompression valve. The other area of concern is the fact this stuff needs to be run pretty hard to burn cleanly. In wood more appropriate for this saw I have no doubt the buildup in the exhaust woukd have been worse.


Thats why i didn't like running Motul. My top handles were a black sticky mess, they get run hard but only for a short time, then idle, make a small cut, more idle and it just made a mess. Im sure its great for milling or making long bucking cuts though.


----------



## Trx250r180

With the exhaust free flowing now the saw runs much cooler, i bet the plug and piston top would be dryer and less thick if was choked up running hot, more compresion would make more heat and burn a little cleaner with the exhaust opened up,i noticed this on my milling 660,after was ported it burned cleaner with modded exhaust.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> The flaking is a result of the detergents trying to clean it?


Its actually not flaking. More like raised deposits.
These deposits are the result of detergents and antiwear additives burning off. They are mettalic compounds so they leave a mettalic based ash behind. 800 has a bunch of mettalics in it based on the VOA I saw for it, so this isn't a supprise.


----------



## nitehawk55

Has that saw only been run on 800 or was it run on something else prior ?


----------



## Jimbo209

bwalker said:


> Its actually not flaking. More like raised deposits.
> These deposits are the result of detergents and antiwear additives burning off. They are mettalic compounds so they leave a mettalic based ash behind. 800 has a bunch of mettalics in it based on the VOA I saw for it, so this isn't a supprise.


Are you removing them before reassembling the saw.

And would would you expect them to still be there under "normal/appropriate sized wood."
Is the latter about 12-18" wood


----------



## Bwildered

That's probably the best advertisement for running 33:1 you can get. I couldn't imagine those flaking deposits would be good for anything other than getting caught in all the wrong places at at the wrong times!
Fainzst


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Has that saw only been run on 800 or was it run on something else prior ?


Only 800


----------



## bwalker

Jimbo209 said:


> Are you removing them before reassembling the saw.
> 
> And would would you expect them to still be there under "normal/appropriate sized wood."
> Is the latter about 12-18" wood


No, I am not.
I don't know.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> That's probably the best advertisement for running 33:1 you can get. I couldn't imagine those flaking deposits would be good for anything other than getting caught in all the wrong places at at the wrong times!
> Fainzst


You don't even know what your looking at old fool. And you don't know what ratio I was using either.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> You don't even know what your looking at old fool. And you don't know what ratio I was using either.


Everybody is entitled to be a fool occasionally, I'm not going to make it an occupation like you have though!LOL

This rings a bell though, ha ha
"Thought I would track the progress of my MS 260 as I modify it.

This first video is stone stock, tuned to 14k running Motul 800T at 32:1 with premium ethanol free fuel"


----------



## bwalker

For the record the pics posted are typical. Nothing supprising at all.


----------



## Trx250r180

H1r left that white crud in my piston , ash ? and plug also ,the mobil 1 is not so bad the dumonde tech dtp was real clean ,have not tried the sabre stuff yet ,i have a camera coming from snap on that has a probe with a light ,hopefully it can take images of piston top without pulling the jug off every time ,i do not have time to take the jugs off to look at stuff 

I bet you will gain power with mobil 1 in that little saw ,the heavier dirt bike oils dogged power in my 50cc and lower stock equipment over the mobil


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> H1r left that white crud in my piston , ash ? and plug also ,the mobil 1 is not so bad the dumonde tech dtp was real clean ,have not tried the sabre stuff yet ,i have a camera coming from snap on that has a probe with a light ,hopefully it can take images of piston top without pulling the jug off every time ,i do not have time to take the jugs off to look at stuff
> 
> I bet you will gain power with mobil 1 in that little saw ,the heavier dirt bike oils dogged power in my 50cc and lower stock equipment over the mobil


That whitish crusty stuff is ash. I would think saber ran at normal ratios woukd be worse in this regard.
After a half gallon at 32:1, I switched to 40:1. I noticed no real differance in how the saw ran. The exhaust outlet stayed a bit cleaner.
Motul is really good oil. I just think there are better choices for my needs and conditions. YMMV.


----------



## bwalker

BTW bikes almost never show ash buildup because your always off and on the throttle, which tends to keep the ash swept out.


----------



## Miles86

bwalker said:


> Pulled down my new ms 260 to do a base gasket delete and this what it looked like. Motul 800 and premium ethanol free fuel.View attachment 451330
> View attachment 451331
> View attachment 451332
> View attachment 451333


The tuning looks right on, the deposits are from the fuel and oil, not just the oil. Deposits (if your fuel mix doesn't change type) reach a steady state and I ignore these in my 2 cycles as long as my tuning is OK.
ps. What sealant are you using instead of a base gasket? Thanks for the photos.


----------



## bwalker

Miles86 said:


> The tuning looks right on, the deposits are from the fuel and oil, not just the oil. Deposits (if your fuel mix doesn't change type) reach a steady state and I ignore these in my 2 cycles as long as my tuning is OK.
> ps. What sealant are you using instead of a base gasket? Thanks for the photos.


Loctite 518.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Loctite 518.


Permatex Motoseal is great also


----------



## KenJax Tree

Bazooka bubble gum does the trick


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Bazooka bubble gum does the trick


Hubble Bubble better


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Hubble Bubble better


Well, yeah for ported saws


----------



## Moparmyway

25:1 Motul 800 off road with VP SEF
.404 RM
Went and did 3 super hard Hickory stumps that had been sitting since the end of spring that were like granite. Sparks everywhere, tore up 3 chains

No where is there any excess oil or buildup


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> 25:1 Motul 800 off road with VP SEF
> .404 RM
> Went and did 3 super hard Hickory stumps that had been sitting since the end of spring that were like granite. Sparks everywhere, tore up 3 chains
> 
> No where is there any excess oil or buildup


I wouldn't expect any with that kinda load. I like your choice in ratio. Bwildered is going to say your killing yourself and your saw running that much oil,lol.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I wouldn't expect any with that kinda load. I like your choice in ratio. Bwildered is going to say your killing yourself and your saw running that much oil,lol.


Thanks bwalker !
Bwildered or anyone else can say anything they wish ............. stumpin aint easy and the pictures show it

36" .404 full comp RM on a bloom of about 7 feet on the larger one .......... 5 feet on both of the others.
I used up 6 chains on the stumps, I have 3 to sharpen, and 3 to make into semi-skip due to the damage to the cutters from those 3. They were dropped in early July, didnt know Hickory stumps could get petrified in 3 months

Here is my Freak 066 ............ same mix, same Hickory trees. She is tuned to 13,500 and studdering like a MSD rev limiter. This one used 4 tanks and cut the big stuff laying around from when they were felled. Buried the 36" in the big one for about a dozen cuts, the other two had the tip sticking out a little


----------



## bwalker

Btw running a fuel with a distallation curve tailored to two cycles helps with unburnt oil in the exhaust. Something like avgas does the opposite.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Thanks bwalker !
> Bwildered or anyone else can say anything they wish ............. stumpin aint easy and the pictures show it
> 
> 36" .404 full comp RM on a bloom of about 7 feet on the larger one .......... 5 feet on both of the others.
> I used up 6 chains on the stumps, I have 3 to sharpen, and 3 to make into semi-skip due to the damage to the cutters from those 3. They were dropped in early July, didnt know Hickory stumps could get petrified in 3 months
> 
> Here is my Freak 066 ............ same mix, same Hickory trees. She is tuned to 13,500 and studdering like a MSD rev limiter. This one used 4 tanks and cut the big stuff laying around from when they were felled. Buried the 36" in the big one for about a dozen cuts, the other two had the tip sticking out a little


Dirt tearing up the chains? What about carbide?


----------



## porsche965

Wish I was there. The harder the better.


----------



## Moparmyway

I used to think the same porsche, but before I was done with the first stump, I was thinking to myself that this wood aint wood anymore.

I have cut black lucust that sat for a couple years and even that stuff didnt tear up .404 RM
Take a look at the 661 picture, I didnt even see it before, but that is what most of the cutters look like .............. there wasnt anything metal and no rocks, just rock hard wood. Guy said Hickory .............. should have said granite


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Dirt tearing up the chains? What about carbide?


Wasnt any dirt or rocks, just rock hard wood.
I could get me some carbide chain, but then I would have to get a diamond wheel to keep it sharp

** EDIT**
That might not be a bad idea, it will just have to wait untill after the Holidays


----------



## porsche965

I've had chains come out like that. Good testing ground to really see just what a saw is made of.
Still wish I was there to grind teeth with you!


----------



## Bwildered

for us non smoking guys that use saws most days, its just common sense to use a mix which is best for your health, then for the saw running a oil & ratio that doesn't produce flaking deposits that are going to erupt on a regular basis, then become lodged between piston & bore with may lead to scuffing, seems to be a no brainer too!
what hasn't been discussed is the added wear caused by the abrasive byproducts which comes with burning more oil than necessary, excessive oil consumption in engines causes premature piston, bore & ring wear, sure the bottom end will love the extra oil but its not an even trade off.
ta


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> I used to think the same porsche, but before I was done with the first stump, I was thinking to myself that this wood aint wood anymore.
> 
> I have cut black lucust that sat for a couple years and even that stuff didnt tear up .404 RM
> Take a look at the 661 picture, I didnt even see it before, but that is what most of the cutters look like .............. there wasnt anything metal and no rocks, just rock hard wood. Guy said Hickory .............. should have said granite


I'm almost a fully qualified wood butcher & have never seen just wood do that to metal, especially the soft stuff you guys have!!!!!! LOL
thansk


----------



## Trx250r180

When cutting stumps 10 degree top plate like a millimg chain will last longer,also bore in and cut from inside out will keep the stump from pulling dirt in the whole cut like starting on the outside edge does.


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> what hasn't been discussed is the added wear caused by the abrasive byproducts which comes with burning more oil than necessary, excessive oil consumption in engines causes premature piston, bore & ring wear, sure the bottom end will love the extra oil but its not an even trade off.
> ta


Ok, I havent looked yet, but I will and I will take pics of the pistons and rings. I think you are a little off base here



Bwildered said:


> I'm almost a fully qualified wood butcher & have never seen just wood do that to metal, especially the soft stuff you guys have!!!!!! LOL
> thansk


Almost is a qualifier in your statement.
I get that you are in the land of Oz, but dont discount everything here as soft, especially since it sat for a season. There was nothing but wood, no rocks, no metal, just knots and wood ......................... thangst !!



Trx250r180 said:


> When cutting stumps 10 degree top plate like a millimg chain will last longer,also bore in and cut from inside out will keep the stump from pulling dirt in the whole cut like starting on the outside edge does.



Couldnt bore into this stuff, the chain was just bouncing .....I try to bore every one first since you suggested that technique a few months back, it has made a difference, but not here..... had to dog in to start cutting.

I will file a couple of loops of RM to 10 degree top plates, didnt think of doing that. Thanks junk man, your advice is allways appreciated ........


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> for us non smoking guys that use saws most days, its just common sense to use a mix which is best for your health, then for the saw running a oil & ratio that doesn't produce flaking deposits that are going to erupt on a regular basis, then become lodged between piston & bore with may lead to scuffing, seems to be a no brainer too!
> what hasn't been discussed is the added wear caused by the abrasive byproducts which comes with burning more oil than necessary, excessive oil consumption in engines causes premature piston, bore & ring wear, sure the bottom end will love the extra oil but its not an even trade off.
> ta


Once again you haven't a single clue what your talking about. Bravo!


----------



## redbull660

Moparmyway said:


> Thanks bwalker !
> Bwildered or anyone else can say anything they wish ............. stumpin aint easy and the pictures show it
> 
> 36" .404 full comp RM on a bloom of about 7 feet on the larger one .......... 5 feet on both of the others.
> I used up 6 chains on the stumps, I have 3 to sharpen, and 3 to make into semi-skip due to the damage to the cutters from those 3. They were dropped in early July, didnt know Hickory stumps could get petrified in 3 months
> 
> Here is my Freak 066 ............ same mix, same Hickory trees. She is tuned to 13,500 and studdering like a MSD rev limiter. This one used 4 tanks and cut the big stuff laying around from when they were felled. Buried the 36" in the big one for about a dozen cuts, the other two had the tip sticking out a little




oh how I want to run this saw!


----------



## Trx250r180

440 hybrid with the finger ports and triple port muffler ,40 to 1 ,ethonol fuel ,could not get the camera to focus the top of the piston (i need the snap-on camera still has not got here yet ) but looking down the plug hole what i could see was top of piston carboned lightly ,could see machine marks on top of piston pretty clear ,the muffler is wet from idling before shut down ,i do not think with the 3 ports the muffler gets hot enough to burn the soot out ,but is seems to run good this way ,hard to see the piston top with a cel phone ,interesting thing when i checked the dumonde tech ,the muffler was not as sooty ,nor the exhaust port as black .The hours put on this plug were general tree felling and limbing ,the saw sits idling part of the time ,not run hard the whole time like when i mill .


View attachment 451794


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Ok, I havent looked yet, but I will and I will take pics of the pistons and rings. I think you are a little off base here
> 
> 
> Almost is a qualifier in your statement.
> I get that you are in the land of Oz, but dont discount everything here as soft, especially since it sat for a season. There was nothing but wood, no rocks, no metal, just knots and wood ......................... thangst !!
> 
> 
> 
> Couldnt bore into this stuff, the chain was just bouncing .....I try to bore every one first since you suggested that technique a few months back, it has made a difference, but not here..... had to dog in to start cutting.
> 
> I will file a couple of loops of RM to 10 degree top plates, didnt think of doing that. Thanks junk man, your advice is allways appreciated ........


I don't thing you're going to see anything abnormal looking in the bore early on in the life of a saw, cumulative wear takes time.
I might become a fully qualified wood butcher with another 30 years experience, if I live that long & can get a Zimmer frame into & around the workshop! 
Something in your timber turned up that tooth the way it did & it looks typical of hitting a foreign object.
Thansk


----------



## Moparmyway

I will be keeping a watchfull eye ............... but I have to tell you that my origional stumping saw that was ran at 5oz per gallon has been in use for over 20 years now and has well over 2000 hours .....................I dont see what you are describing in that one either yet, but I will look more vigilantly now that you have educated me. How many hours use should I expect to put on the saw before I start to see what you are warning me of , that stumpin saw still has origional piston, cylinder, rings, and muffler..................


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I will be keeping a watchfull eye ............... but I have to tell you that my origional stumping saw that was ran at 5oz per gallon has been in use for over 20 years now and has well over 2000 hours .....................I dont see what you are describing in that one either yet, but I will look more vigilantly now that you have educated me. How many hours use should I expect to put on the saw before I start to see what you are warning me of , that stumpin saw still has origional piston, cylinder, rings, and muffler..................


You don't see it because it's not reality..


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> You don't see it because it's not reality..



"Carbon-rich fuels are more difficult to burn and have combustion characteristics which lead to the formation of soot and carbon deposits. Since carbon deposits are a major source of abrasive wear, The type of carbon also can affect abrasive wear. "

Common sense 101 really. Double the oil, double the carbon going through the top end of the engine.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> "Carbon-rich fuels are more difficult to burn and have combustion characteristics which lead to the formation of soot and carbon deposits. Since carbon deposits are a major source of abrasive wear, The type of carbon also can affect abrasive wear. "
> 
> Common sense 101 really. Double the oil, double the carbon going through the top end of the engine.


Two cycles ran on good oil have cleaner combustion chambers than four cycle engines in many cases. Of course this doesn't apply to you given your endorsement of using boat oil and diesel fuel as air cooled two cycle lubes..
Your common sense is only common with the other village idiots.


----------



## nitehawk55

I haven't seen carbon being an abrasive in an engine causing actual wear before unless the rings are worn and blow by is allowing it into the cylinder . At that point an engine is worn out anyway .
Yes clean it better but so is enough lube , 40:1 is a good mix.... maybe a bit more for milling .


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> You don't see it because it's not reality..


Come on bwalker .............. 2000+ hours just aint enough run time to see whats being warned of. I am sure that by the time that saw hits 10,000 hours there might be some "added wear caused by the abrasive byproducts which comes with burning more oil than necessary, excessive oil consumption in engines causes premature piston, bore & ring wear"


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Two cycles ran on good oil have cleaner combustion chambers than four cycle engines in many cases. Of course this doesn't apply to you given your endorsement of using boat oil and diesel fuel as air cooled two cycle lubes..
> Your common sense is only common with the other village idiots.


From the pictures you've shown you should probably hunt around & try & find some of that elusive oil then, try looking in another town for some, while you're away you will be only temporarily raising your village IQ. LOL


----------



## Bwildered

nitehawk55 said:


> I haven't seen carbon being an abrasive in an engine causing actual wear before unless the rings are worn and blow by is allowing it into the cylinder . At that point an engine is worn out anyway ..


Now you're starting to get it!
Fanks


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Come on bwalker .............. 2000+ hours just aint enough run time to see whats being warned of. I am sure that by the time that saw hits 10,000 hours there might be some "added wear caused by the abrasive byproducts which comes with burning more oil than necessary, excessive oil consumption in engines causes premature piston, bore & ring wear"


Speaking of well worn, I've still got my old grandfathers felling axe which I still use today, it's had dozens apon dozens of handles in it & its worn out 5 heads!
Tansk


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> I will be keeping a watchfull eye ............... but I have to tell you that my origional stumping saw that was ran at 5oz per gallon has been in use for over 20 years now and has well over 2000 hours .....................I dont see what you are describing in that one either yet, but I will look more vigilantly now that you have educated me. How many hours use should I expect to put on the saw before I start to see what you are warning me of , that stumpin saw still has origional piston, cylinder, rings, and muffler..................





Bwildered said:


> Speaking of well worn, I've still got my old grandfathers felling axe which I still use today, it's had dozens apon dozens of handles in it & its worn out 5 heads!
> Tansk


I see what you did here .............. as it might be working for you in other areas of your life, deflection dont work on me
As previousely stated, the origional piston, rings, and cylinder are still on this saw


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> From the pictures you've shown you should probably hunt around & try & find some of that elusive oil then, try looking in another town for some, while you're away you will be only temporarily raising your village IQ. LOL


If you knew what the hell your talking about you would realize the pics I posted looked pretty good. Of course you dont and that's very apparent.


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> I see what you did here .............. as it might be working for you in other areas of your life, deflection dont work on me
> As previousely stated, the origional piston, rings, and cylinder are still on this saw


I was just humouring your post, all three of us will be pensioned off well & truely when your saw reaches 10,000 hrs, that's you, me & the saw.
Ta


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> what hasn't been discussed is the added wear caused by the abrasive byproducts which comes with burning more oil than necessary, excessive oil consumption in engines causes premature piston, bore & ring wear, sure the bottom end will love the extra oil but its not an even trade off.
> ta





Bwildered said:


> I don't thing you're going to see anything abnormal looking in the bore early on in the life of a saw, cumulative wear takes time.





Bwildered said:


> I was just humouring your post, all three of us will be pensioned off well & truely when your saw reaches 10,000 hrs, that's you, me & the saw.
> Ta



Happy to have helped you change your mind !


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> If you knew what the hell your talking about you would realize the pics I posted looked pretty good. Of course you dont and that's very apparent.


Is it just me, or is it a bit strange that you show one of your Pistons with a top caked in erupting flaking carbon with your pet oil & claim that it's ok, then beforehand someone shows a piston top with a non erupting or flaking carbon buildup of an oil you don't like & it's rubbish! How about a reasonable explaination for what seems to be a unreasonable bias?


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Happy to have helped you change your mind !


I'd don't think you have, but you have humoured me thinking you could get 10,000 hrs out of your chainsaw!
Thansgt


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> I'd don't think you have, but you have humoured me thinking you could get 10,000 hrs out of your chainsaw!
> Thansgt



Well, I am on 2k and counting


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Well, I am on 2k and counting


How did you estimate that number?
Just crunching a few numbers I come out with this, say 15 minutes for a litre of fuel,
1 hour equals 4 litres of fuel X 2000 hrs = 8000 litres of fuel used
20 years X 220 work days a year = 4400 days
8000 ltrs / 4400 days = 1.82 litres every work day a year for 20 years
Or 400 litres of fuel used a year
Or 16 litres of oil used a year at 25:1 ratio


----------



## Flatie

Bwildered said:


> Is it just me, or is it a bit strange that you show one of your Pistons with a top caked in erupting flaking carbon with your pet oil & claim that it's ok, then beforehand someone shows a piston top with a non erupting or flaking carbon buildup of an oil you don't like & it's rubbish! How about a reasonable explaination for what seems to be unreasonable bias?


I dont think walker ever said hes overly fussed with motul. K2 and yamaha he prefers for what hes using it for....


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> How did you estimate that number?


Believe it or not, I am an Engineer .......... an anal one at that !
I get about 15 minutes cutting from a tank, add idle time and round down to about 20 minutes each tank
I have been keeping track of how many tanks I use each time I use it since I purchased it new, on the side of one of my toolboxes.
Easy to add all the groups of five ......... have 2 full columns of 3000 ticks, 3rd column has just under 700 ticks


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Believe it or not, I am an Engineer .......... an anal one at that !
> I get about 15 minutes cutting from a tank, add idle time and round down to about 20 minutes each tank
> I have been keeping track of how many tanks I use each time I use it since I purchased it new, on the side of one of my toolboxes.
> Easy to add all the groups of five ......... have 2 full columns of 3000 ticks, 3rd column has just under 700 ticks


I'd like to see a picture of that toolbox!
Fanks


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> I'd like to see a picture of that?
> Fanks


Even when I post it ............. I am sure you will attempt to discount it


----------



## Pud

Moparmyway Any idea how many chains to tanks of fuel ? I always mean to try keep track but never do . Would be cool to know


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Even when I post it ............. I am sure you will attempt to discount it


If it doesn't turn up real soon & then it does later on, then we know you'll have a severe case of RSI! LOL
Tanzsk


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> If it doesn't turn up real soon & then it does later on, then we know you'll have a severe case of RSI! LOL
> Tanzsk


I will have it posted tomorrow when I get home ......... soon enough for ya ?



On a side note, I have posted pics and videos as well as sent along anything and everything that I have said in any post ................ I have yet to see you post up anything in a video or pictures related to chainsaws that show you are more than just a keyboard hack ............... 

Proove me wrong, post up something chainsaw related that you are working on, participate in a build off or chain race, give something chainsaw related to another member here who needs it, become more than just the troll that you have been as of late


----------



## Moparmyway

Pud said:


> Moparmyway Any idea how many chains to tanks of fuel ? I always mean to try keep track but never do . Would be cool to know



That all depends on the wood I cut, the location I cut that wood in, weather I ground the chain or filed it ............
When I learned to take care of my stuff, everything lasted longer for me.

To answer your question, I really have no idea


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> How did you estimate that number?
> Just crunching a few numbers I come out with this, say 15 minutes for a litre of fuel,
> 1 hour equals 4 litres of fuel X 2000 hrs = 8000 litres of fuel used
> 20 years X 220 work days a year = 4400 days
> 8000 ltrs / 4400 days = 1.82 litres every work day a year for 20 years
> Or 400 litres of fuel used a year
> Or 16 litres of oil used a year at 25:1 ratio


I said over 20 years .............. actually purchased in 1987 IIRC ........... could have been 86


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Is it just me, or is it a bit strange that you show one of your Pistons with a top caked in erupting flaking carbon with your pet oil & claim that it's ok, then beforehand someone shows a piston top with a non erupting or flaking carbon buildup of an oil you don't like & it's rubbish! How about a reasonable explaination for what seems to be a unreasonable bias?


First of all, motul isn't my pet oil . I am not that crazy about it. Second of all, the carbon layer was very thin and there was nothing erupting. Again, you don't know what your looking at.


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> I said over 20 years .............. actually purchased in 1987 IIRC ........... could have been 86


Are you sure about that date? I was falling full time in the early nineties (91) & they weren't available then, 056 mags were the top dog in the stihl 90cc range
I saw an old invoice book the other day with my dockets for log volumes from that year.
Fansk


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> First of all, motul isn't my pet oil . I am not that crazy about it. Second of all, the carbon layer was very thin and there was nothing erupting. Again, you don't know what your looking at.


That doesn't seem like a reasonable explanation at all, the pictures tell the story though.


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> I will have it posted tomorrow when I get home ......... soon enough for ya ?
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note, I have posted pics and videos as well as sent along anything and everything that I have said in any post ................ I have yet to see you post up anything in a video or pictures related to chainsaws that show you are more than just a keyboard hack ...............
> 
> Proove me wrong, post up something chainsaw related that you are working on, participate in a build off or chain race, give something chainsaw related to another member here who needs it, become more than just the troll that you have been as of late


If you had cast your net a little wider you would have caught my recent posts with pictures of a 090 I found in a rubbish throw out & some fence posts I was ripping with my ms660. I am a naturally skeptical of things that seem too good to be true & similarly so for those that get sucked by that stuff. 
Thangst


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> That doesn't seem like a reasonable explanation at all, the pictures tell the story though.


You don't know what your looking at.. Very apparent to anyone that does.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> If you had cast your net a little wider you would have caught my recent posts with pictures of a 090 I found in a rubbish throw out & some fence posts I was ripping with my ms660. I am a naturally skeptical of things that seem too good to be true & similarly so for those that get sucked by that stuff.
> Thangst


You are essentially calling the guy a liar. A guy who, unlike you actually contributes.


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> Are you sure about that date? I was falling full time in the early nineties (91) & they weren't available then, 056 mags were the top dog in the stihl 90cc range
> I saw an old invoice book the other day with my dockets for log volumes from that year.
> Fansk


What wasnt available then ?
I am sure that I purchased my 2000 plus hour stumper in 86 or 87.
Its not my stumpin saw anymore, but it still runs just fine with the origional piston, rings, and cylinder.


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> I am a naturally skeptical of things that seem too good to be true & similarly so for those that get sucked by that stuff.
> Thangst


Yeah, we get the point that you only live in your own reality and that if you didnt do it, or cant do it, nobody can



bwalker said:


> You are essentially calling the guy a liar. A guy who, unlike you actually contributes.



Thanks bwalker, like I already said, the picture he questions will easily be posted when I get home tomorrow. I want to see him worm his way into attempting to dismiss it as he typically tries to do when he is proven wrong ......................... again


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Yeah, we get the point that you only live in your own reality and that if you didnt do it, or cant do it, nobody can
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks bwalker, like I already said, the picture he questions will easily be posted when I get home tomorrow. I want to see him worm his way into attempting to dismiss it as he typically tries to do when he is proven wrong ......................... again


He is proven wrong consistently. Unfortunately he isn't smart enough to shut up.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

All this drama over oil, This forum is getting pathetic.


----------



## one.man.band

carbon crud coming out the straight pipe from the power products motor, is fun to watch as the sun goes down. looks like tiny burning embers from a camp fire. quite the amount of embers can be seen ejecting out the pipe every few seconds, mixed in with some flames.

will try to get some photos. the saw has not been started yet this year. if i recall, 16:1, 927 castor.


----------



## Bwildered

Bwildered said:


> How did you estimate that number?
> Just crunching a few numbers I come out with this, say 15 minutes for a litre of fuel,
> 1 hour equals 4 litres of fuel X 2000 hrs = 8000 litres of fuel used
> 20 years X 220 work days a year = 4400 days
> 8000 ltrs / 4400 days = 1.82 litres every work day a year for 20 years
> Or 400 litres of fuel used a year
> Or 16 litres of oil used a year at 25:1 ratio


And a couple more number to add
320 litres of oil used over 20 years
At 25:1 that's 160 litres of extra oil used over 50:1
160 litres of extra oil X an average of say $8 a litre that's $1280
That's more than enough to buy a new saw with the savings of the extra cost of running 25:1, with the added benifits of breathing in half the emissions 




Moparmyway said:


> I said over 20 years .............. actually purchased in 1987 IIRC ........... could have been 86



I really think your going to be hard pressed to back up that claim, if you can find any reference to them being released before late 1990 I would be extremely surprised.



Moparmyway said:


> What wasnt available then ?
> I am sure that I purchased my 2000 plus hour stumper in 86 or 87.
> Its not my stumpin saw anymore, but it still runs just fine with the origional piston, rings, and cylinder.



I don't really know what stumpin means.
Thansk


----------



## Moparmyway

Do you even have a single clue as to what saw I was using as my stumper back then ?

Your super powers of ASSumption and DICKheadedness have shined brighter than the sun that I enjoy

I used to think that you were an OK dude ............... I was wrong. I will post the picture of my toolbox, maybe even both sides ............. but after that, I will have nothing more to do with you


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> You are essentially calling the guy a liar. A guy who, unlike you actually contributes.


 you're essentially seem to being overly antagonistic & aggressive for......... a matter of opinion oil thread!


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Do you even have a single clue as to what saw I was using as my stumper back then ?
> 
> Your super powers of ASSumption and DICKheadedness have shined brighter than the sun that I enjoy
> 
> I used to think that you were an OK dude ............... I was wrong. I will post the picture of my toolbox, maybe even both sides ............. but after that, I will have nothing more to do with you


Don't my numbers & questions suit the oil gods, so you become what you expound?
And no I didn't have my name on the bottom of my boots for identification purposes to be that far into you to know what saw you used for what or know stumpin means.


----------



## KG441c

Brushape?


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Brushape?


The origional BA is actually active on another forum, and he is an OK dude .................. this guy here is special


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> you're essentially seem to being overly antagonistic & aggressive for......... a matter of opinion oil thread!


You essentially don't have a clue..


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> The origional BA is actually active on another forum, and he is an OK dude .................. this guy here is special


the oil gurus certainly don't like to be questioned or can't be asked to consider other opinions or viewpoints, without chucking a tanty & start the personal attacks.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> You essentially don't have a clue..


Do you have LDS / SPS or something?


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> And a couple more number to add
> 320 litres of oil used over 20 years
> At 25:1 that's 160 litres of extra oil used over 50:1
> 160 litres of extra oil X an average of say $8 a litre that's $1280
> That's more than enough to buy a new saw with the savings of the extra cost of running 25:1, with the added benifits of breathing in half the emissions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really think your going to be hard pressed to back up that claim, if you can find any reference to them being released before late 1990 I would be extremely surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really know what stumpin means.
> Thansk


Do you have any numbers to back up your emmissions statement? I already know the answer, but I will humor you.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> the oil gurus certainly don't like to be questioned or can't be asked to consider other opinions or viewpoints, without chucking a tanty & start the personal attacks.


Frankly your opinions suck, and you have proven your self to be a complete tard/troll.
Further, opinions, as used by people like you is a code word for " I don't know what the hell I am talking about and I am too stupid to learn".


----------



## Bwildered

Now that's a hard one! Half the oil burned = half the burned oil emissions. Got any more?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Frankly your opinions suck, and you have proven your self to be a complete tard/troll.
> Further, opinions, as used by people like you is a code word for " I don't know what the hell I am talking about and I am too stupid to learn".


But your the one that's overly abusive to any other viewpoint other than your own unsubstantiated opinion, I'd like to see something more than that to convince me to convert to a high emission costly fad.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Now that's a hard one! Half the oil burned = half the burned oil emissions. Got any more?


More ASSumptions..and ones based largley on ignorance of how a two cycle motor works.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> But your the one that's overly abusive to any other viewpoint other than your own unsubstantiated opinion, I'd like to see something more than that to convince me to convert to a high emission costly fad.


I don't have an opinions...especially unsubstantiated ones, unlike you.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Hello, first post for me. Just hoping I can ask a couple questions. I haven't made it through all the pages of this thread so perhaps it was talked about and I missed it.

Do you guys find that the K2 has a more complete burn with less carbons left behind in the cylinder? I've used the Motul oils and 927 but have not yet tried the K2, it's not carried locally so I would have to order it. I've seen it is highly praised for the low odor and I believe good performance also but I didn't see photos or comments about the burn being clean or how it compares to some of the other top shelf oils.

Lastly, Ipone Samourai. Are any of you familiar with it or run it regularly? Any likes / dislikes about it? One of my companies distributes numerous products but haven't done oils large scale. We're thinking about becoming the US importer for it so I'm just trying to get a sense of the thoughts on it.

Thanks!


----------



## blsnelling

Looks like a great oil. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Hello, first post for me. Just hoping I can ask a couple questions. I haven't made it through all the pages of this thread so perhaps it was talked about and I missed it.
> 
> Do you guys find that the K2 has a more complete burn with less carbons left behind in the cylinder? I've used the Motul oils and 927 but have not yet tried the K2, it's not carried locally so I would have to order it. I've seen it is highly praised for the low odor and I believe good performance also but I didn't see photos or comments about the burn being clean or how it compares to some of the other top shelf oils.
> 
> Lastly, Ipone Samourai. Are any of you familiar with it or run it regularly? Any likes / dislikes about it? One of my companies distributes numerous products but haven't done oils large scale. We're thinking about becoming the US importer for it so I'm just trying to get a sense of the thoughts on it.
> 
> Thanks!


I have used a bunch of K2 in my bikes and saws. I really like it. Low oder, low smoke and clean.
I have never seen Ipone, but have heard to smells like strawberry.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ipone is great oil and does smell like strawberries but its hard to get here and very expensive.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Thanks to both of you for the reply. I've always liked it and had good results (performance and nothing failing wise). I'm not one to know much about or tear these engines down though so I yield that expertise to all of you.



bwalker said:


> I have used a bunch of K2 in my bikes and saws. I really like it. Low oder, low smoke and clean.
> I have never seen Ipone, but have heard to smells like strawberry.



The strawberry smell is definitely a plus! 



KenJax Tree said:


> Ipone is great oil and does smell like strawberries but its hard to get here and very expensive.



If we do become the US importer would you be likely to buy it with the easier availability?


----------



## KenJax Tree

MarkDaGlock said:


> Thanks to both of you for the reply. I've always liked it and had good results (performance and nothing failing wise). I'm not one to know much about or tear these engines down though so I yield that expertise to all of you.
> 
> 
> 
> The strawberry smell is definitely a plus!
> 
> 
> 
> If we do become the US importer would you be likely to buy it with the easier availability?


For sure...i've used and if it was more available i'd use it more.


----------



## bwalker

I would give it a try if it was readily available. Ipone has a few oils that are FD certified too. I mean ,really certified. Not just claiming to "meet" or listing the standard on the label, but making no claim as to certification.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't think its call Samurai anymore, i think the name changed to Stoke 2R Racing


----------



## KenJax Tree

I was given some Ipone Scoot City scooter oil that is FD rated but not sure how scoot oil would work in ***.


----------



## Moparmyway

Bwildered said:


> I'd like to see a picture of that toolbox!
> Fanks





Moparmyway said:


> Even when I post it ............. I am sure you will attempt to discount it





Bwildered said:


> If it doesn't turn up real soon & then it does later on, then we know you'll have a severe case of RSI! LOL
> Tanzsk





Moparmyway said:


> I will have it posted tomorrow when I get home ......... soon enough for ya ?
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note, I have posted pics and videos as well as sent along anything and everything that I have said in any post ................ I have yet to see you post up anything in a video or pictures related to chainsaws that show you are more than just a keyboard hack ...............
> 
> Proove me wrong, post up something chainsaw related that you are working on, participate in a build off or chain race, give something chainsaw related to another member here who needs it, become more than just the troll that you have been as of late



Finally made it home, took the first picture, and then I wiped away some dust and took another one.
Both sides of this box are like this, and both tops .......................


----------



## MarkDaGlock

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't think its call Samurai anymore, i think the name changed to Stoke 2R Racing



They do have the Stroke 2R oil also, it's essentially one level up from the Samourai. From what they told me it is their highest performance 2 stroke oil however the Samourai according to the gentleman were working with from Ipone is also exceptionally good and overkill for most purposes but also very suitable. 

I can't comment on the FD rated stuff but I believe you are correct that some of the "lower" performance oils may have that. I'm assuming it's due to the more complete burn of the non ester ester blend thus less left over unburned oil to keep the EPA a little happier.


----------



## Bwildered

Moparmyway said:


> Finally made it home, took the first picture, and then I wiped away some dust and took another one.
> Both sides of this box are like this, and both tops .......................


It good to see you have come through with the pictures of the toolbox! I was imagining something more crazy, random & abstract.
Tansk


----------



## KG441c

Ran the 390xp today and noodled a good bit with Sunoco 110 and K2 at 32:1. Alil strong smelling for me but the 110 and k2 made that 390 run like a scalded dog!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

The smell was probably the 110, K2 doesn't really have a smell


----------



## Trx250r180

4 to 1 ?


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> The smell was probably the 110, K2 doesn't really have a smell


K2 has almost no smell, even when starting a saw from cold.


----------



## bwalker

Btw excessive smell tells you the oil isn't burning that cleanly.
Klotz for instance has a very distinct smell, yet load it up high enough long enough and it doesn't smell. Run the same engine rich and or at low load and it's very noticable.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> K2 has almost no smell, even when starting a saw from cold.


Must be the 110. Something was strong but I was also noodling in 1 area for awhile


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> Must be the 110. Something was strong but I was also noodling in 1 area for awhile


you wasn't farting was you


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> you wasn't farting was you


!! Maybe!! Lol!!


----------



## mdavlee

Mobil to me has more smell than k2


----------



## KG441c

The k2 wasnt bad but very distinct. Not sure if it was the Sunoco 110 or the K2


----------



## KG441c

Saw sure ran good on the combo though as when I pinned the throttle noodling it was holding excellent rpm in the cut


----------



## KG441c

Ran the 390 again with Member Laslab and Ron660 and we all agreed the 110 and k2 was strong


----------



## blsnelling

Race gas will always smell strong.


----------



## porsche965

blsnelling said:


> Race gas will always smell strong.



But I really like the smell of race gas.
Usually it comes from something very fast and interesting.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Race gas will always smell strong.


Im sure thats what it was as thats the first time I have ran straight 110. Usually I run 1/2 110 & 1/2 87 e free


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> But I really like the smell of race gas.
> Usually it comes from something very fast and interesting.


The leaded VP and Phillips fuels with MTBE in them smell really good.


----------



## blsnelling

porsche965 said:


> But I really like the smell of race gas.
> Usually it comes from something very fast and interesting.


There's nothing like race gas and Castor 927 in a built Banshee!!!


----------



## KG441c

Alil MM on member Laslab's 661 today


----------



## Trx250r180

I must be old ,back when i raced we used blue leaded Trick racing fuel


----------



## Trx250r180

I think there was a sunoco station when i first got my licence that had over 100 octane leaded fuel at the pumps also .


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 started me on the Sunoco 110. We get it for 9$ per gallon at a local Exxon station


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> The k2 wasnt bad but very distinct. Not sure if it was the Sunoco 110 or the K2


Keith put some of his K2 in my ported 036 today. Very immediate foul odor. My buddy said the same. Motul 800 off-road doesn't have the foul odor in any of my saws using 93 non-E or 110 octane. 110 smells better than 93.


----------



## Ron660

blsnelling said:


> Race gas will always smell strong.


 The Sunoco 110 I use smells very good. All my hunting lease buddies concur.


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Im sure thats what it was as thats the first time I have ran straight 110. Usually I run 1/2 110 & 1/2 87 e free


Keith, mix 110 (all 110 not 93) with 800 off-road and you'll think you're smelling a margarita. Smells better than 93.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Keith, mix 110 (all 110 not 93) with 800 off-road and you'll think you're smelling a margarita. Smells better than 93.


Neither 800 or k2 have much smell IME.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Alil MM on member Laslab's 661 todayView attachment 452654


Thats good, but in the case of the 661, bigger is better, and stuff


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Thats good, but in the case of the 661, bigger is better, and stuff


Thats opened all the way front to back top to bottom behind the deflector and what Laslab wanted to try for now. We looked at adding a deflector to the left side but we decided to let him try it with just the factory port modified


----------



## Moparmyway

Next time, you can go more towards the front, and round out the deflector side.

The more I took from mine, the stronger it was ............... no doubt about it, the Hardline tach confirmed my feeling

I might go even further this weekend


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> Next time, you can go more towards the front, and round out the deflector side.
> 
> The more I took from mine, the stronger it was ............... no doubt about it, the Hardline tach confirmed my feeling
> 
> I might go even further this weekend


Woe!! Looks good! I woulda thought it would have melted the brake handle that far foward?


----------



## Moparmyway

Not even close (yet) .............. PS, that whiteish color is an LED light
Here she is in regular light


----------



## Bwildered

Trx250r180 said:


> 4 to 1 ?


square ground chisel chain too by the looks of it, on dry hickory! LOL
thansks


----------



## NWCoaster

Bwildered said:


> square ground chisel chain too by the looks of it, on dry hickory! LOL
> thansks


HR1 at 100:1 .......


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> square ground chisel chain too by the looks of it, on dry hickory! LOL
> thansks


Probaly one of your boys using diesel fuel as two cycle oil and drain oil as bar lube...


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Probaly one of your boys using diesel fuel as two cycle oil and drain oil as bar lube...


 Maybe boat 2-cycle at 16:1


----------



## Trx250r180

I am going to start using used engine oil for mix  16 to 1 like the sticker says


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Probaly one of your boys using diesel fuel as two cycle oil and drain oil as bar lube...


The urban cowboy get up is the distinguishing factor that makes that impossible. LOL


----------



## Bwildered

Trx250r180 said:


> I am going to start using used engine oil for mix  16 to 1 like the sticker says View attachment 452825


It looks like you already have with that black soot all over the saw!
Thansk


----------



## redbull660

ok boyz - pick 4 of them. I think I have enough wood and chain to do 4 right now. Saw won't be ported but I'd like to get something done before it gets too cold.

- spikes will be off the saw. so no doggin
- Will do at least 4 timed cuts followed immediately by 5 or 6 cuts in smaller wood as fast as I can do them to heat up the saw. Then take jug temp
- bar will be 28" - 404 RS 7pin.

- I secured myself a couple of piss test cups! lol I've checked the measurement lines on the side...they are dead on! SOO the ratios will be 100% correct, no eyeballing it.

- So I will buy a bunch of empty milk jugs and buy the gas all from the same station same day etc etc. 

-I will run 3-4 ratios of each oil. 

- We'll pick the best ratio from each and then put them head to head to pick a winner.


----------



## KG441c

Ill put my my money on the R2 being the fastest at 32to1 followed by K2


----------



## KenJax Tree

I want to see how Yamalube compares to Amsoil


----------



## KG441c

K2, 800, mobil, r2. I know Redd Foxx wants to see the DuMonde tested too


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> K2, 800, mobil, r2



^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said !!!!!


----------



## Trx250r180

I will laugh if h1r wins 

I say dumonde tech will run the crispest for power in a saw .


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> I will laugh if h1r wins
> 
> I say dumonde tech will run the crispest for power in a saw .


I used h1r without any problems except for driving my sinuses crazy!!!


----------



## Moparmyway

Here is my 661 .................. its been run on a 50/50 mix of R50 and 800 off road with VP SEF for a couple of dozen tanks

@bwalker , I would like to hear what you honestly think ...... I value your opinion


----------



## blsnelling

Moparmyway said:


> Here is my 661 .................. its been run on a 50/50 mix of R50 and 800 off road with VP SEF for a couple of dozen tanks
> 
> @bwalker , I would like to hear what you honestly think ...... I value your opinion


Looks entirely normal to me.


----------



## NWCoaster

My money is on K2 at 40:1 !!!!!!! ......... GO MAXIMA OR GO HOME!!!!!!!........ or whatever is cheap......... that's fine too...........


----------



## KenJax Tree

Thats why i said Yamalube and Amsoil....cheap[emoji6]


----------



## mdavlee

K2 or Mobil I think will be near the top.


----------



## smokey7

I am curious of how the amsoil will do. What ratios are you going to try? 

That 661 looks good to me.


----------



## Flatie

Moparmyway said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> What he said !!!!!


+1

I would also like to see the top ipone oil thrown in the mix as this was just mentioned and hasnt had much air time around here.


----------



## KG441c

Looks like Redbull is gonna be even busier than he already has been???!!!


----------



## Bwildered

redbull660 said:


> ok boyz - pick 4 of them. I think I have enough wood and chain to do 4 right now. Saw won't be ported but I'd like to get something done before it gets too cold.
> 
> - spikes will be off the saw. so no doggin
> - Will do at least 4 timed cuts followed immediately by 5 or 6 cuts in smaller wood as fast as I can do them to heat up the saw. Then take jug temp
> - bar will be 28" - 404 RS 7pin.
> 
> - I secured myself a couple of piss test cups! lol I've checked the measurement lines on the side...they are dead on! SOO the ratios will be 100% correct, no eyeballing it.
> 
> - So I will buy a bunch of empty milk jugs and buy the gas all from the same station same day etc etc.
> 
> -I will run 3-4 ratios of each oil.
> 
> - We'll pick the best ratio from each and then put them head to head to pick a winner.


this could be a silly suggestion but maybe you could do a test where you cut a log & machine sharpened the chain & progressivly set the rakers after each cut to see if that was in fact a variable, imagine the savings if you found out it wasn't a variable, you could test all those oils at SFA expense.
Thansk


----------



## porsche965

Who is paying for all this Red Bull?


----------



## porsche965

Bwildered said:


> this could be a silly suggestion but maybe you could do a test where you cut a log & machine sharpened the chain & progressivly set the rakers after each cut to see if that was in fact a variable, imagine the savings if you found out it wasn't a variable, you could test all those oils at SFA expense.
> Thansk



Good idea Ben. You could do this test. I think Bull has his hands full right about now


----------



## KG441c

Me and member Laslab got alil runtime today on the 661c, 390xp, 440/460 hybrid, and the 241c. Thats my cutting partner John Laslab and a member here on AS. Hes kinda quite on here. Super nice fellow


----------



## porsche965

Video? Thoughts?

Oil and fuel of course share!


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> Video? Thoughts?
> 
> Oil and fuel of course share!


390 fast in wood 25 and under, 661c has awesome torque regardless of what u hang it in, hybrid cut and noodled 28" full comp with a lighter touch, and the 241c is awesome and a joy to use in wood 16" and under


----------



## KG441c

I ran 110 Sunoco/87 efree 50/50 with k2 with no offensive smell at all today. Not sure what my buddy John was running but the 661c after the MM I did on it and recalibration with some runtime was very impressive. Seems to be getting stronger


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> I ran 110 Sunoco/87 efree 50/50 with k2 with no offensive smell at all today. Not sure what my buddy John was running but the 661c after the MM I did on it and recalibration with some runtime was very impressive. Seems to be getting stronger


Make it bigger and see just how much stronger she gets.

I just got finished putting mine back together, opened my exhaust opening a little larger too


----------



## Moparmyway

porsche965 said:


> Who is paying for all this Red Bull?


I donated the bottle of K2 for this test


----------



## KenJax Tree

I offered Pro Honda HP2


----------



## porsche965

Where is everyone? 

Donations must scare people off lol


----------



## Trx250r180

I donated a kick in his arse if that counts ?


----------



## Trx250r180

And i think 2 of those bottles i saw in the image look like something i have ran in the past ............


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> I donated a kick in his arse if that counts ?


That was probably the single most important contribution


----------



## KenJax Tree

HP2 is gonna be tested, i offered to send some but he said he was gonna look when he went to town and if he didn't find it then he'll take my offer.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Here is my 661 .................. its been run on a 50/50 mix of R50 and 800 off road with VP SEF for a couple of dozen tanks
> 
> @bwalker , I would like to hear what you honestly think ...... I value your opinion


Looks like your a bit on the rich side, but everything else looks good.


----------



## porsche965

Or is that the nature of this mix? It is clear on the transfer areas....bit heavy in the center. Wonder how the muffler box looks?


----------



## Moparmyway

porsche965 said:


> Or is that the nature of this mix? It is clear on the transfer areas....bit heavy in the center. Wonder how the muffler box looks?


Stand by .............. I'll show you


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Looks like your a bit on the rich side, but everything else looks good.


Thanks bwalker ............ I believe the 661 will do just fine in a milling setup if its run with a little more oil.

That picture is 25:1 for the last 24 tanks


----------



## porsche965

Moparmyway said:


> Thanks bwalker ............ I believe the 661 will do just fine in a milling setup if its run with a little more oil.
> 
> That picture is 25:1 for the last 24 tanks



For Milling have you reached equilibrium? Quite possibly.


----------



## bwalker

I would not bother with the temp testing. 
I have been dealing with Fluke and Raytek devices at work alot lately and have found them in general to not be very accurate.
Further does a higher cylinder cooling fin temp really mean the piston is hotter or does it indicate better heat transfer? I would also think the order the tests are ran incould effect both chain speed and temp.
Maybe we should put everyone's heads together and try and identify all the variables and then try to eliminate them or lessen their effect?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Thanks bwalker ............ I believe the 661 will do just fine in a milling setup if its run with a little more oil.
> 
> That picture is 25:1 for the last 24 tanks


I would not hesitate to run south of 32:1 when milling.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I ran 110 Sunoco/87 efree 50/50 with k2 with no offensive smell at all today. Not sure what my buddy John was running but the 661c after the MM I did on it and recalibration with some runtime was very impressive. Seems to be getting stronger


That sounds more in line with what I have noticed. K2 simply has very little odor, especially when tuned sharp.


----------



## porsche965

BWalker, you should have been a lifer at UL (Underwriter Laboratories) lol. Great job for a guy like you.

But I get what you are saying


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I would not bother with the temp testing.
> I have been dealing with Fluke and Raytek devices at work alot lately and have found them in general to not be very accurate.
> Further does a higher cylinder cooling fin temp really mean the piston is hotter or does it indicate better heat transfer? I would also think the order the tests are ran incould effect both chain speed and temp.
> Maybe we should put everyone's heads together and try and identify all the variables and then try to eliminate them or lessen their effect?


I think in redbulls bar testing the oregon one being aluminum was hot after testing more in the aluminum center vs the outer edge where the friction was ,the heat sink makes sense to me


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> I ran 110 Sunoco/87 efree 50/50 with k2 with no offensive smell at all today. Not sure what my buddy John was running but the 661c after the MM I did on it and recalibration with some runtime was very impressive. Seems to be getting stronger


Pic of the muffler opening just for you



porsche965 said:


> Or is that the nature of this mix? It is clear on the transfer areas....bit heavy in the center. Wonder how the muffler box looks?





Moparmyway said:


> Stand by .............. I'll show you



there is some residuals in there from cleaning a little with compressed air. I have oil injection for air tools, thats the spots you are seeing


----------



## porsche965

Plenty of protection there.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

My vote goes to the urine sample for the win, I contributed that.


----------



## TBrown

porsche965 said:


> Who is paying for all this Red Bull?


Redbull has alot of time and money in this project. I have watched him do a few of his test. I don't know why he is doing all this but I know he goes to extremes to do it right.


----------



## Moparmyway

porsche965 said:


> For Milling have you reached equilibrium? Quite possibly.


I would not hesitate to throw her on a mill with my R50/800 off road mix @ 25:1. I just dont have a mill to run her on


----------



## BuckMKII

Bailey's Woodlandpro Syn is the best bang for the buck especially since they have $2 shipping from time to time when purchased from Amazon. I'd like to see this tested too and I would be willing to send you a bottle of oil.


----------



## Bwildered

MarkDaGlock said:


> My vote goes to the urine sample for the win, I contributed that.


If this was analysing a urine sample it would be the most expensive p*ss in town. LOL
Thangzst


----------



## KG441c

Redbulls Jaso certification: fb,fc,fd. Send your oil and a $50,000 dollar check for certification. Any donation over 50,000 will better the odds of your oil meeting fd certification!!!


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Or is that the nature of this mix? It is clear on the transfer areas....bit heavy in the center. Wonder how the muffler box looks?


Some people think that a piston can be bare metal with a high quality oil, but it's simply not true in practice. Even four cycle motors have carbon on the crown. The washed area of bare metal indicates jetting. Some times it takes awhile to appear, but it's a pretty good indicator of of an engines state of tune in a very broad sense.


----------



## Trx250r180

I used to tell f my atv was jetted right by the heat marks on the pipe


----------



## one.man.band

sorry, i went back thread, and may have missed it. 

red, will this be a cleanliness test? .......or something else?


----------



## one.man.band

closer look:

40% will see human face(s)
60% will see a piston burn pattern
8% definitely need a beer


----------



## Trx250r180

one.man.band said:


> closer look:
> 
> 40% will see human face(s)
> 60% will see a piston burn pattern
> 8% definitely need a beer


I see clowns


----------



## one.man.band

one.man.band said:


> closer look:
> 
> 40% will see human face(s)
> 60% will see a piston burn pattern
> 8% definitely need a beer


250 to 180% see clowns


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> Some people think that a piston can be bare metal with a high quality oil, but it's simply not true in practice. Even four cycle motors have carbon on the crown. The washed area of bare metal indicates jetting. Some times it takes awhile to appear, but it's a pretty good indicator of of an engines state of tune in a very broad sense.



.....or bad chamber design, poor transfer aiming, etc.


----------



## one.man.band

be back in a couple, to show example photo of above.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> .....or bad chamber design, poor transfer aiming, etc.


I have never seen a properly tuned motors piston with out transfer wash. Regardless of transfer port discharge aiming or the poorly design combustion chamber as found on chainaws.


----------



## Hedgerow

Trx250r180 said:


> I see clowns


I see dead people...





And clowns..


----------



## Moparmyway

one.man.band said:


> closer look:
> 
> 40% will see human face(s)
> 60% will see a piston burn pattern
> 8% definitely need a beer


Its a lip


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> I have never seen a properly tuned motors piston with out transfer wash. Regardless of transfer port discharge aiming or the poorly design combustion chamber as found on chainaws.



today is your lucky day. hahahahaha.


----------



## big t double

Looks like someone dropped a deuce on that there piston.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> today is your lucky day. hahahahaha.


Just looks overly rich.


----------



## one.man.band

posted the ink blot for a reason. it's symmetric.


----------



## one.man.band

Moparmyway said:


> Its a lip


----------



## one.man.band

hairy


----------



## one.man.band

tuning is spot on btw. all i got.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I see clowns



I saw a 362see


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> tuning is spot on btw. all i got.


I would have to see it with my own eyes and tune it myself to believe it's anything other than rich.


----------



## one.man.band

trans ports not flowing evenly. bad casting. the other is offset chamber. lastly, what a proper working squish band pattern should look like.

oh well.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> trans ports not flowing evenly. bad casting. the other is offset chamber. lastly, what a proper working squish band pattern should look like.
> 
> oh well.


Here is a off set chamber piston from a properly tuned motor. Transfer flow is a bit mismatched and the pointing could be better as well, but what one expects from a stock motor.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> trans ports not flowing evenly. bad casting. the other is offset chamber. lastly, what a proper working squish band pattern should look like.
> 
> oh well.


One other thing. I haven't seen a stock chainsaw with a functional squish band. The only modified ones I have seen that were fuclntional had removable heads.
The machining done to the squish band by saw porters is done to raise compression, not make a functional squish band in the traditional sense.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> One other thing. I haven't seen a stock chainsaw with a functional squish band. The only modified ones I have seen that were fuclntional had removable heads.
> The machining done to the squish band by saw porters is done to raise compression, not make a functional squish band in the traditional sense.



did not say if it was stock. just what i had mentioned. photo used by permission.


----------



## Moparmyway

Moparmyway said:


> Its a lip






one.man.band said:


> hairy


Its a lip



Skip to 1:30


----------



## Deleted member 83629

wth did i just watch.


----------



## Moparmyway

jakewells said:


> wth did i just watch.


Bet you'll be singing it all day


----------



## Deleted member 83629

nope.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> ok boyz - pick 4 of them. I think I have enough wood and chain to do 4 right now. Saw won't be ported but I'd like to get something done before it gets too cold.
> 
> - spikes will be off the saw. so no doggin
> - Will do at least 4 timed cuts followed immediately by 5 or 6 cuts in smaller wood as fast as I can do them to heat up the saw. Then take jug temp
> - bar will be 28" - 404 RS 7pin.
> 
> - I secured myself a couple of piss test cups! lol I've checked the measurement lines on the side...they are dead on! SOO the ratios will be 100% correct, no eyeballing it.
> 
> - So I will buy a bunch of empty milk jugs and buy the gas all from the same station same day etc etc.
> 
> -I will run 3-4 ratios of each oil.
> 
> - We'll pick the best ratio from each and then put them head to head to pick a winner.


Thinner (lower cSt) viscosities will probably be faster but less protection. That's my 2 cents worth for the day. To prove this use one of the lower viscosities like Yamalube vs one of the higher viscosities like R50. No doubt R50 will protect better though. Just ask anyone that mills.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I went to the Honda dealer to buy HP2 for me and for this test and they're out until next Wednesday.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Thinner (lower cSt) viscosities will probably be faster but less protection. That's my 2 cents worth for the day. To prove this use one of the lower viscosities like Yamalube vs one of the greater viscosities like R50. No doubt R50 will protect better though. Just ask anyone that mills.


In regards to the viscosity comment while intuitively it sounds plausible I am not sure it's true. For instance castor can be of very light viscosity, you there isn't a synthetic or mineral lubricant that can take the abuse it can.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> In regards to the viscosity comment while intuitively it sounds plausible I am not sure it's true. For instance castor can be of very light viscosity, you there isn't a synthetic or mineral lubricant that can take the abuse it can.


I've read that before. Castor-based oils did provide the most protection but the downside it's not clean burning.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I buy quality 2-cycle for protection and cleanliness not because one might cut a second or so faster.
> 
> I've read that before. Castor-based oils did provide the most protection but the downside it's not clean burning.


The down side to any high viscosity fluid is its tougher to combust cleanly. Although castor takes it to the next level based on its decomposition path.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The down side to any high viscosity fluid is its tougher to combust cleanly. Although castor takes it to the next level based on its decomposition path.



I'm thinking a big ported saw, like my ported 660 with 212 psi, might benefit using racing oils with viscosities higher than typical chainsaw oil viscosities. A ported saw produces more compression, more HP, and more rpms under load than a stock saw. I'm also thinking a large ported saw will produce different results comparing 2-cycle oils than a stock saw. After Redbull finishes his tests I could compare a few oils to see if I get the same results.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The down side to any high viscosity fluid is its tougher to combust cleanly. Although castor takes it to the next level based on its decomposition path.


Do you think higher compression helps with combustion?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> Do you think higher compression helps with combustion?


what is considered high ?


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> what is considered high ? View attachment 453903


I'd say 200psi+.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> what is considered high ? View attachment 453903


Hope your decompression button works.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> what is considered high ? View attachment 453903


230 ????
Meh ................


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm thinking a big ported saw, like my ported 660 with 212 psi, might benefit using racing oils with viscosities higher than typical chainsaw oil viscosities. A ported saw produces more compression, more HP, and more rpms under load than a stock saw. I'm also thinking a large ported saw will produce different results comparing 2-cycle oils than a stock saw. After Redbull finishes his tests I could compare a few oils to see if I get the same results.


Keep in mind the badest ported saw out there has a pretty pathetic HP output.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Do you think higher compression helps with combustion?


Quit possibly.
Although the compression on these saws is pretty low. When a guy can get away with running 87 octane on a ported saw with 200 psi that tells you the compression ratio is low. Especially so given saws are air cooled.
My yz250 for instance will detonate with premium pump gas very easily if the main jet isn't fat enough for conditions. It has a stock head and cylinder btw.


----------



## blsnelling

Built sled engines typically run significantly less than 200 PSI.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Built sled engines typically run significantly less than 200 PSI.


I have had them in the 190's but that was a race gas only chamber(had interchangeable combustion chambers).
The yz I mentioned above would be lucky to crack 180.


----------



## blsnelling

My point is that these saws with way over 200 is significantly higher than that found in other built engines. However, I'd assume that dynamic compression is higher on the sleds and bikes due to the tuned pipes.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> I have had them in the 190's but that was a race gas only chamber(*had interchangeable combustion chambers*).
> The yz I mentioned above would be lucky to crack 180.


I had that on my built Banshee. I ran a Pro-Design head.


----------



## bwalker

Any of the builders calculated the compression ratio for the saws they are building?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> My point is that these saws with way over 200 is significantly higher than that found in other built engines. However, I'd assume that dynamic compression is higher on the sleds and bikes due to the tuned pipes.


I would bet the compression ratio is lower on these saws in question. 
I would also think the exhaust port height of a ported saw is higher than that of a sled or bike by virtue of the peak rpms each engine turns. This would limit compression ratio.


----------



## KG441c

Would anybody want to run say 250psi on a 390xp? The bottomend is already easy enough to let go isnt it? I built one saw at 230psi and ended up lowering it to 180psi and it ran better at 180psi


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Would anybody want to run say 250psi on a 390xp? The bottomend is already easy enough to let go isnt it? I built one saw at 230psi and ended up lowering it to 180psi and it ran better at 180psi


Pumping loses.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Pumping loses.


Uneccessary wear and tear in the bottomend also


----------



## Trx250r180

These little bore saw engines are easier to crank over till the bore starts getting larget ,my hybrid pulls over not bad,but the 660 will rip the cord out of your hand if dont start it right ,the piston in a 250 dirt bike is much larget than our saws ,i would like to see someone put a recoil on the yz and try to pull it ovet,thats why the kick start on a bike


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> These little bore saw engines are easier to crank over till the bore starts getting larget ,my hybrid pulls over not bad,but the 660 will rip the cord out of your hand if dont start it right ,the piston in a 250 dirt bike is much larget than our saws ,i would like to see someone put a recoil on the yz and try to pull it ovet,thats why the kick start on a bike


Alot of stroke difference in the bike and these saws? Randy explained his theory on these short stroked saws not having time to detonate using low octane fuel vs the longer stroked bikes that require the race fuel over a year ago in a thread.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Alot of stroke difference in the bike and these saws? Randy explained his theory on these short stroked saws not having time to detonate using low octane fuel vs the longer stroked bikes that require the race fuel over a year ago in a thread.


250 and 500 cc bikes are much bigger, however the smaller bikes are similar to saws. Small bores are harder to get to detonate because detonation takes time and a smaller bore area combusts faster than a larger one. However, I can assure you 60cc-125cc shot stroke/small bore bike motors will indeed detonate.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Small bores are harder to get to detonate because detonation takes time and a smaller bore area combusts faster than a larger one. However, I can assure you 60cc-125cc shot stroke/small bore bike motors will indeed detonate.


Ya Randy has been saying these ported saws dont need high octane for awhile now but I run the Sunoco for the quality


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ya Randy has been saying these ported saws dont need high octane for awhile now but I run the Sunoco for the quality


Compression ratio...


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Compression ratio...


Ya alota folks confuse static compression ratio in these saws vs a highly modified race car with a high compression ratio and take for granted that just because a high compression race car needs race fuel that a saw with 220 psi needs it also?


----------



## mdavlee

The higher the octane I went the slower the saws got. from 93 to 110 was 10% slower in the 550xp. Took about 20 cuts to tune itself to the 110. Oil was k2 for both fuels. I didn't have any with over 200 lbs plus then.


----------



## KG441c

Wonder if the same applies to carb saws and not mtronic?


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Wonder if the same applies to carb saws and not mtronic?


That's what Scott had said.


----------



## KG441c

Ronnie had gotten different results with his 110/93 test with his 660 running about 212psi last time I checked it for him. His test showed the 110 faster but I cant remember how much? He has cut several cords of wood running 110 Sonoco and 800t @ 32:1. I checked his bore the other day and its just as he states oily residue and 0 carbon anywhere. I think he is tuned at about 13600 to 13800


----------



## bwalker

Has anyone calculated compression ratio for a saw?


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> I would also think the exhaust port height of a ported saw is higher than that of a sled or bike by virtue of the peak rpms each engine turns. This would limit compression ratio.


The exhaust port would be higher on the sled or bike, due to the use of a tuned pipe. Port timing is much different when using a tuned pipe.



KG441c said:


> I built one saw at 230psi and ended up lowering it to 180psi and it ran better at 180psi


I have experienced the same on some models.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Has anyone calculated compression ratio for a saw?


I havent Ben but with the short stroke there isnt enough time area between BDC and TDC to require high octane even at 225 psi I would bet. With the short stroke the ratio is way less than most think


----------



## blsnelling

Is it specifically the stroke that makes the compression ratio lower, or rather the small displacement?


----------



## MarkDaGlock

As far as detonation goes, the same fuel at the same pressure will burn at the same rate regardless of the size of the area it is being burned in. Having the extra fuel in the larger engine makes up for the smaller amount of fuel in the smaller saw.

Disclaimer: I'm certainly not an expert on these engines and modding or any of that at all. Combustion and all that goes with it is where my expertise is.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> The higher the octane I went the slower the saws got. from 93 to 110 was 10% slower in the 550xp. Took about 20 cuts to tune itself to the 110. Oil was k2 for both fuels. I didn't have any with over 200 lbs plus then.


Most of the 110 octane fuels have completley the wrong distallation curve for use in a two stroke..
Your results are not supprising.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I havent Ben but with the short stroke there isnt enough time area between BDC and TDC to require high octane even at 225 psi I would bet. With the short stroke the ratio is way less than most think


Right...low compression ratio.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> As far as detonation goes, the same fuel at the same pressure will burn at the same rate regardless of the size of the area it is being burned in. Having the extra fuel in the larger engine makes up for the smaller amount of fuel in the smaller saw.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm certainly not an expert on these engines and modding or any of that at all. Combustion and all that goes with it is where my expertise is.


Same rate plus a bigger chamber takes more time.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> The exhaust port would be higher on the sled or bike, due to the use of a tuned pipe. Port timing is much different when using a tuned pipe.
> 
> 
> I have experienced the same on some models.


What sort of exhaust port duration are you using in a saw?


----------



## bwalker

A better way to think about is trapped volume vs bore and stroke.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> Same rate plus a bigger chamber takes more time.



That is incorrect. 

I respect your knowledge on most of the stuff on these forums as it far exceeds mine. Here though you are wrong. 

More fuel in a larger space does not take more time than less fuel in a smaller space. It is all relative. In reality the speed of burn in these engines with small combustion chambers doesn't actually matter much rate of burn wise anyways since they are using gasoline. Detonation is really the incorrect verbiage for what is happening anyways. 

Again it isn't relevant to most people in regards to how these engines run and shouldn't be but I just wanted to clear that up with you.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> That is incorrect.
> 
> I respect your knowledge on most of the stuff on these forums as it far exceeds mine. Here though you are wrong.
> 
> More fuel in a larger space does not take more time than less fuel in a smaller space. It is all relative. In reality the speed of burn in these engines with small combustion chambers doesn't actually matter much rate of burn wise anyways since they are using gasoline. Detonation is really the incorrect verbiage for what is happening anyways.
> 
> Again it isn't relevant to most people in regards to how these engines run and shouldn't be but I just wanted to clear that up with you.


A larger bore motor takes longer to combust and is why they have higher octane requirements. This is fact.
Detonation refers to abnormal, not normal combustion.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

I'm a newbie here so I don't want to come in and stir the pot or make enemies so if anyone is taking it as such please let me know. Just trying to share what I do know relevant to this forum which is a small scope in comparison to most of you.


----------



## bwalker

The classic Two cycle design conundrum is one of large bore, short stroke/detonation, and long stroke, small bore/ high piston speed.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> A larger bore motor takes longer to combust and is why they have higher octane requirements. This is fact.
> Detonation refers to abnormal, not normal combustion.




I don't think I'm going to win to convince you otherwise, you seem set in your opinion which is fine. Not sure what your education is in or your profession or former profession.

I do however make my living investigating, teaching and testifying about fires and explosions. My college degree is in fire science, I went to the FBI bomb school and the ATF fire and arson school at the National Fire academy in Emmitsburg, MD. There is honestly no more highly regarded training anywhere for these topics respectively. I am qualified as an expert witness in multiple circuit courts as well as federally. I openly admit what things I don't know about but I suppose not everyone is willing to do that. 

I wouldn't generally throw my CV out there but I don't know how else to convey to you that I know more than you about this stuff.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> I'm a newbie here so I don't want to come in and stir the pot or make enemies so if anyone is taking it as such please let me know. Just trying to share what I do know relevant to this forum which is a small scope in comparison to most of you.


Don't think that at all.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> I don't think I'm going to win to convince you otherwise, you seem set in your opinion which is fine. Not sure what your education is in or your profession or former profession.
> 
> I do however make my living investigating, teaching and testifying about fires and explosions. My college degree is in fire science, I went to the FBI bomb school and the ATF fire and arson school at the National Fire academy in Emmitsburg, MD. There is honestly no more highly regarded training anywhere for these topics respectively. I am qualified as an expert witness in multiple circuit courts as well as federally. I openly admit what things I don't know about but I suppose not everyone is willing to do that.
> 
> I wouldn't generally throw my CV out there but I don't know how else to convey to you that I know more than you about this stuff.


No offense , but fires and explosions are not relevant to this subject.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> The classic Two cycle design conundrum is one of large bore, short stroke/detonation, and long stroke, small bore/ high piston speed.



There is actually not any detonation in these engines if we want to be technical, it is deflagration.

Sorry to keep going in this as I suppose I jumped in this thread derai


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> No offense , but fires and explosions are not relevant to this subject.



What is the combustion inside of the engine then? If it's not a fire or explosion then what do you say it is?


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> There is actually not any detonation in these engines if we want to be technical, it is deflagration.
> 
> Sorry to keep going in this as I suppose I jumped in this thread derai


There surely is a phenomenon labeled as detonation.. and deflagration isn't what's going on in a motor.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> What is the combustion inside of the engine then? If it's not a fire or explosion then what do you say it is?


Your comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Detonation is not a phenomenon it is a common form of an explosion. Under roughly 3,300 fps burn is deflagration, over is detonation. Also known as high order vs low order explosions. 

Gasoline does not detonate in these engines.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> Your comparing apples to oranges.



Tell me how it is apples to oranges? An internal combustion engine is just a standard burn of gasoline confined to a finite area which is used to expand inside of the engine pushing piston resulting in the energy they produce....

Your more than welcome to debate me, Give me your reasoning behind it not a "your wrong" type of comment.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Detonation is not a phenomenon it is a common form of an explosion. Under roughly 3,300 fps burn is deflagration, over is detonation. Also known as high order vs low order explosions.
> 
> Gasoline does not detonate in these engines.


Detonation can and does happen. Do some research..


----------



## MarkDaGlock

I have said in what 2-3 posts now what detonation is..... Where do you get that I do t think detonation exists? It does exist and is common just not inside of these engines.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Tell me how it is apples to oranges? An internal combustion engine is just a standard burn of gasoline confined to a finite area which is used to expand inside of the engine pushing piston resulting in the energy they produce....
> 
> Your more than welcome to debate me, Give me your reasoning behind it not a "your wrong" type of comment.


I'm driving right now, so I really can't debate you. However, you need to do some research.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> I have said in what 2-3 posts now what detonation is..... Where do you get that I do t think detonation exists? It does exist and is common just not inside of these engines.


It exists in engines...


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> I'm driving right now, so I really can't debate you. However, you need to do some research.





bwalker said:


> It exists in engines...



Having this stuff being my full time job and being a qualified expert in it I certainly don't need to do research. Heck this is what I wrote about when I got my masters. Going to school for this stuff I hate using google as a "source of knowledge" as I find too many people think they know everything about everything. The most dangerous thing in life is when people don't know what they don't know.

Here you go though:

Deflagration
Everyday fire and most explosions are examples of deflagration. 

The flame propagation velocity is less than 100 m/s (usually much lower) and the overpressure is less than 0.5 bar. Because it is controllable, deflagration can be harnessed. Examples of deflagrations include:
* internal combustion engine
* gas stove
* fireworks and other pyrotechnics
* gunpowder in a firearm
* grease fire or chip pan fire


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Detonation
A detonation is a dramatic, often destructive form of an explosion. It is characterized by a supersonic exothermic front (in excess of 100 m/s up to 2000 m/s) and significant overpressure (up to 20 bars).

The front drives a shockwave ahead of it.
Although technically a form of oxidation reaction, a detonation doesn't require combination with oxygen. Unstable molecules release considerable energy when they split and recombine into new forms. Examples of chemicals that produce detonations include any high explosives, such as:
* TNT (trinitrotoluene)
* nitroglycerine
* dynamite
* picric acid
* C4


----------



## bwalker

I get it..you know about burning buildings.. it's not the same thing as an internal combustion engine.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Detonation
> A detonation is a dramatic, often destructive form of an explosion. It is characterized by a supersonic exothermic front (in excess of 100 m/s up to 2000 m/s) and significant overpressure (up to 20 bars).
> 
> The front drives a shockwave ahead of it.
> Although technically a form of oxidation reaction, a detonation doesn't require combination with oxygen. Unstable molecules release considerable energy when they split and recombine into new forms. Examples of chemicals that produce detonations include any high explosives, such as:
> * TNT (trinitrotoluene)
> * nitroglycerine
> * dynamite
> * picric acid
> * C4


Yes, and it happens on occasion in a Ic engine..with devastating results.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Well, I know about explosives..... Bomb technician and post blast investigator as well.

You have not made one reply with any form of knowledge to back any single statement of yours up.

What is your education in and what is your career if I may ask.

Gasoline does not detonate. 

I have substantiated my posts, your welcome to try do the same with yours.

Now I will ask you something you do know about which I do not. Is the K2 similar to the Motul 800 variants or closer to the 710?


----------



## bwalker

I get it your educated..I also don't give a shat, your wrong.
My line of work is coal, gas and oil fueled generating units, mining/mineral processing/iron pelletizing and automotive fuel systems R&D...


----------



## Moparmyway

MarkDaGlock said:


> Is the K2 similar to the Motul 800 variants or closer to the 710?


K2 is very similar to 800 
K2 burns just a tad cleaner than 800
800 doesnt really smell, and K2 smells even less

If I am purchasing ............... I am buying K2


----------



## MarkDaGlock

You may not care than I am educated. You can say I am wrong all you want to you just can't back it up.

Debating with you is like one of those my dad is stronger than your dad fights kids have. Substantiating what you say as fact using "because I said so" doesn't give you any credibility.

After looking back at your posts I now know this is how you always debate people. You believe you are always right and never wrong and everyone should believe what you say with nothing to support it. Seems like a bit of a god complex, demean others for knowledge on things that you don't have knowledge on.

I take back previous comment, feel free to be offended.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Moparmyway said:


> K2 is very similar to 800
> K2 burns just a tad cleaner than 800
> 800 doesnt really smell, and K2 smells even less
> 
> If I am purchasing ............... I am buying K2



Thanks Mopar! 

I've heard nothing but good things on the K2 I'll have to order some. With the 800 were you using the off road for lower flashpoint or the road for film strength? I've heard the road seems to cause a lot more splooge in the muffler but don't have much experience with it.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> You may not care than I am educated. You can say I am wrong all you want to you just can't back it up.
> 
> Debating with you is like one of those my dad is stronger than your dad fights kids have. Substantiating what you say as fact using "because I said so" doesn't give you any credibility.
> 
> After looking back at your posts I now know this is how you always debate people. You believe you are always right and never wrong and everyone should believe what you say with nothing to support it. Seems like a bit of a god complex, demean others for knowledge on things that you don't have knowledge on.
> 
> I take back previous comment, feel free to be offended.


Your wrong.. pretty simple.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> Your wrong.. pretty simple.



You did just what I said you would do! Pretty predictable. 

Nice try, atleast everyone sees that you speak without substance.

Take it to PM if you want a pi**ing match. I'm done disrupting a thread someone is putting all this effort into with this.


----------



## bwalker

Provide evidence that detonation can not and does not happen in an IC engine and also do the same for a large bore cylinder not taking longer to combust and I will eat crow... hint.. im not eating crow.


----------



## Coldfront

I been running 36:1 right in the middle between 32:1 and 40:1 so far so good. I also been running motul 800 2t love the no smell.


----------



## Trx250r180

Engines detonating is a bad thing .the word detonate in an engine may be slang for preignition ,when the engine is so hot it fires from the piston top or in 4 strokes a glowing exhaust valve glowing and not the spark plug .


----------



## bwalker

Pre ignition and detonation are two different things. What you described is pre ignition. Detonation occurs after the plug fires.


----------



## KG441c

So Ben what kinda comp. Ratio do u think say a 390xp with 200psi is?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> So Ben what kinda comp. Ratio do u think say a 390xp with 200psi is?


Have no idea.


----------



## KG441c

Surely not like 14:1?


----------



## Trx250r180

KG441c said:


> Surely not like 14:1?


i would think closer to 9 or 10 to 1


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Surely not like 14:1?


No.


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> i would think closer to 9 or 10 to 1


Thats what I was thinkin too. Ronnie has a chart on psi vs octane. Surely someone has measured the ratio on one of these bigger bore saws?


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Trx250r180 said:


> Engines detonating is a bad thing .the word detonate in an engine may be slang for preignition ,when the engine is so hot it fires from the piston top or in 4 strokes a glowing exhaust valve glowing and not the spark plug .



Yes in lay mans terms were in the ballpark, or DDT. Didn't mean to take this thread off the rails on a completely different topic. 

I suppose it doesn't make any difference at all weather we get this terminology war hammered out or not. Engines run the same either way.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

How many oils in total are in this test by now? Is it More for wear or has it evolved to clean burn tests.etc. Maybe I missed it or maybe he is testing all of the above?

Thanks


----------



## KG441c

MarkDaGlock said:


> How many oils in total are in this test by now? Is it More for wear or has it evolved to clean burn tests.etc. Maybe I missed it or maybe he is testing all of the above?
> 
> Thanks


Performance in speed


----------



## KG441c

MarkDaGlock said:


> How many oils in total are in this test by now? Is it More for wear or has it evolved to clean burn tests.etc. Maybe I missed it or maybe he is testing all of the above?
> 
> Thanks


Cmon man!! Surely u have read all 385 pages?


----------



## MarkDaGlock

KG441c said:


> Performance in speed



Ok, sweet thanks. I should gracefully exit now lol, I don't have any hot rod saws. I'm more of the burn clean and don't wear out on me kinda guy. Only have a Jonsered 2153 and a Stihl 461 both stock. Some of the saw collections on here are impressive!


----------



## MarkDaGlock

KG441c said:


> Cmon man!! Surely u have read all 385 pages?



Lol, its probably like what the Egyptians thought about building the pyramids. One block or for me one page at a time.


----------



## KG441c

MarkDaGlock said:


> Ok, sweet thanks. I should gracefully exit now lol, I don't have any hot rod saws. I'm more of the burn clean and don't wear out on me kinda guy. Only have a Jonsered 2153 and a Stihl 461 both stock. Some of the saw collections on here are impressive!


Jump on in head first with CAD!!! Lol!!


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Yes in lay mans terms were in the ballpark, or DDT. Didn't mean to take this thread off the rails on a completely different topic.
> 
> I suppose it doesn't make any difference at all weather we get this terminology war hammered out or not. Engines run the same either way.


I'm still waiting for an answer/ documentation to the questions I posted ..


----------



## KG441c

Port that 461 and u will be hooked!! Alot of good porters here


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> I'm still waiting for an answer/ documentation to the questions I posted ..



I'm not going to repeat the same things I have said 4 times over again, remember I said we can take this to PM if you want to continue and quit screwing up this guys thread.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

KG441c said:


> Port that 461 and u will be hooked!! Alot of good porters here



Haha, I better not do it then my wife will kill me lol. I fly so I've already spent way past what I should have on the plane lol. I better take it easy to keep her sane for awhile lol.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Has anyone used Belray H1R at 32:1? Is it any good? Any change in tune when using it?


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> I'm not going to repeat the same things I have said 4 times over again, remember I said we can take this to PM if you want to continue and quit screwing up this guys thread.


So in other words you have no documentation nor proof. Just admit your wrong and we can move on..


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> Has anyone calculated compression ratio for a saw?



yes


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Haha, I better not do it then my wife will kill me lol. I fly so I've already spent way past what I should have on the plane lol. I better take it easy to keep her sane for awhile lol.


Saws are a cheap hobby. Much cheaper than flying!


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> yes


And?


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> So in other words you have no documentation nor proof. Just admit your wrong and we can move on..



Negative sir, I've invited you to do the same to no avail.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> Saws are a cheap hobby. Much cheaper than flying!



Very true, right now trying to add any collection would get me killed lol.


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## one.man.band

hey mark...... in motors the term 'detonation' possibly evolved from the destructive consequences produced, not the process itself? your knowledge is recognized.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> And?



just answering your question.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

one.man.band said:


> hey mark...... in motors the term 'detonation' possibly evolved from the destructive consequences produced, not the process itself? your knowledge is recognized.



Very well could be, sometimes I get overly specific and break every term down to the smallest principals and miss the forest from the trees. 

Your right as far as it goes in this situation the specific stuff I'm referring to is irrelevant to the genertal term you guys are using being detonation.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Negative sir, I've invited you to do the same to no avail.





one.man.band said:


> just answering your question.


And I am asking what your calculations were. Or what you have read.


----------



## bwalker

http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> Very well could be, sometimes I get overly specific and break every term down to the smallest principals and miss the forest from the trees.
> 
> Your right as far as it goes in this situation the specific stuff I'm referring to is irrelevant to the genertal term you guys are using being detonation.


What you have done is to use terminology relevant to fires and or explosions to talk about what's happening in a two cycle engine. They are not the same environment.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

bwalker said:


> http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html





bwalker said:


> What you have done is to use terminology relevant to fires and or explosions to talk about what's happening in a two cycle engine. They are not the same environment.



From your own article you linked:

_*KEY DEFINITIONS *_*Detonation:* Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

The last sentence of that above:

The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

That is exactly what DDT is..... And I've been saying DDT.....

Don't tell me what is or what isn't relevant about anything fire, explosion or combustion related be it in a house, engine, pipe bomb or explosive unicorn. Same scientific terms apply to any of them.


----------



## one.man.band

MarkDaGlock said:


> Very well could be, sometimes I get overly specific and break every term down to the smallest principals and miss the forest from the trees.
> 
> Your right as far as it goes in this situation the specific stuff I'm referring to is irrelevant to the genertal term you guys are using being detonation.



...in motors....in simplistic jargon, the mass burn rate % is so fast, it happens while the piston is still on its upstroke.......causing slight to very extreme engine damage to the moving parts.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

God now you've dragged me back into screwing up this thread.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

one.man.band said:


> ...in motors....in simplistic jargon, the mass burn rate % is so fast, it happens while the piston is still on its upstroke.......causing slight to very extreme engine damage to the moving parts.



Agree with everything you've said.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> And I am asking what your calculations were. Or what you have read.



calcs and a how to........are, and have been posted on another site. don't feel the need to post the same information here.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> From your own article you linked:
> 
> _*KEY DEFINITIONS *_*Detonation:* Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
> 
> The last sentence of that above:
> 
> The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
> 
> That is exactly what DDT is..... And I've been saying DDT.....
> 
> Don't tell me what is or what isn't relevant about anything fire, explosion or combustion related be it in a house, engine, pipe bomb or explosive unicorn. Same scientific terms apply to any of them.


 It happens and that's what was being argued.


----------



## Trx250r180

I'll be back later,need to get some oil from the bike shop .


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> calcs and a how to........are, and have been posted on another site. don't feel the need to post the same information here.


Have a link? Send it in a pm if you don't want to post it.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

I just proved you wrong with your link.

The way you are using the term detonation is not the scientific way regardless of what it's being used about.

You article refers to exactly what DDT is 

Deflagration (normal burning of the fuel in the engine) evolving into a detonation .

Like your article says it has to happen after the fuel is already ignited (in process deflagrating) when interrupted abruptly causing it to evolve into a detonation....

The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Perhaps a Mod can just preemtively ban me, I'm sure at some point here I'll say something to deserve it. ​


----------



## one.man.band

MarkDaGlock said:


> Perhaps a Mod can just preemtively ban me, I'm sure at some point here I'll say something to deserve it. ​




typical oil thread. no big deal.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I like how current members create a new identity to argue this stuff in fear of doing it under their current username to spare themselves the ridicule...i love it.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

one.man.band said:


> typical oil thread. no big deal.



Lol



SAWMIKAZE said:


> I like how current members create a new identity to argue this stuff in fear of doing it under their current username to spare themselves the ridicule...i love it.



Do you mean me?


----------



## Trx250r180

MarkDaGlock said:


> The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.



I think Ben said something along this line in response to my preignition description .


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Trx250r180 said:


> I think Ben said something along this line in response to my preignition description .



He did, and I've even told him were talking about the same things but arguing semantics.

What I said is the Detonation in these engines is not a pure form of a detonation it is a DDT which is what it would have to be to happen delayed until after the spark.


----------



## MarkDaGlock

Anyways, going flying. Gotta love taking extra days off! Hell maybe some day I'll fly over to Grawn and argue with Ben over a cup of coffee lol. Just cause I argue doesn't mean I don't like someone. We really don't even know each other for the most part.


----------



## bwalker

MarkDaGlock said:


> I just proved you wrong with your link.
> 
> The way you are using the term detonation is not the scientific way regardless of what it's being used about.
> 
> You article refers to exactly what DDT is
> 
> Deflagration (normal burning of the fuel in the engine) evolving into a detonation .
> 
> Like your article says it has to happen after the fuel is already ignited (in process deflagrating) when interrupted abruptly causing it to evolve into a detonation....
> 
> The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.


Its not the way I am using the term..it's the way engineers who design engines use the term.. it's the correct usage.
And no shat it happens after the plug fires..you said it doesn't happen at all!


----------



## Moparmyway

MarkDaGlock said:


> Thanks Mopar!
> 
> I've heard nothing but good things on the K2 I'll have to order some. With the 800 were you using the off road for lower flashpoint or the road for film strength? I've heard the road seems to cause a lot more splooge in the muffler but don't have much experience with it.


Been using 800 off road


----------



## KenJax Tree

Who made a new name?


----------



## MarkDaGlock

MarkDaGlock said:


> From your own article you linked:
> 
> _*KEY DEFINITIONS *_*Detonation:* Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
> 
> The last sentence of that above:
> 
> The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.
> 
> That is exactly what DDT is..... And I've been saying DDT.....
> 
> Don't tell me what is or what isn't relevant about anything fire, explosion or combustion related be it in a house, engine, pipe bomb or explosive unicorn. Same scientific terms apply to any of them.



Nope didn't say it never happens as a part of another thing aka the DDT.... I've even PM'd you the DDT thing..... You can't have a DDT without a detonation at the end of it or it wouldn't be a DDT.


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I like how current members create a new identity to argue this stuff in fear of doing it under their current username to spare themselves the ridicule...i love it.


Whats your new user name ?


----------



## big t double

MarkDaGlock said:


> .....or explosive unicorn.


  awesome poast.


----------



## KenJax Tree

So if a unicorn explodes does it turn into pixie dust?


----------



## big t double

I would imagine something like that. it would be rainbow colored for sure


----------



## MarkDaGlock

big t double said:


> awesome poast.





KenJax Tree said:


> So if a unicorn explodes does it turn into pixie dust?





big t double said:


> I would imagine something like that. it would be rainbow colored for sure


Ok ok last one I better get going lol.

Yes to all of the above but only if it detonates


----------



## smokey7

On a oil related note i used my 011 for some slow paced tree trimming today. I was using amsoil saber pro at 32:1, i had a fair bit of smoking. I assume it is because of the lower temps short runtime. Once i got into some longer cuts it cleaned right up with no smoke. I think this oil may do better at 50:1 on the smoking .


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> Whats your new user name ?



Heywood jablome.


----------



## porsche965

smokey7 said:


> On a oil related note i used my 011 for some slow paced tree trimming today. I was using amsoil saber pro at 32:1, i had a fair bit of smoking. I assume it is because of the lower temps short runtime. Once i got into some longer cuts it cleaned right up with no smoke. I think this oil may do better at 50:1 on the smoking .



I've tuned the "00" series saws to 50:1 and they are surprising strong for an old saw. Follow the four stroking to the lean edge instead of the OEM spec for maxium results with this oil. 

Never a failure even in modern equipment.


----------



## Coldfront

The question is are you looking for best performance, or what is best for the saw longevity? Personally I am just cutting firewood not in a race contest. I will sacrifice a second or 2 per cut for the longer life of the saw.


----------



## porsche965

Coldfront said:


> The question is are you looking for best performance, or what is best for the saw longevity? Personally I am just cutting firewood not in a race contest. I will sacrifice a second or 2 per cut for the longer life of the saw.



I get both


----------



## Jimbo209

Coldfront said:


> The question is are you looking for best performance, or what is best for the saw longevity? Personally I am just cutting firewood not in a race contest. I will sacrifice a second or 2 per cut for the longer life of the saw.


Chances are that lost time could be regained with a well sharpened chain.
So ill be mixing for a longer life of saw


----------



## smokey7

This saw acts a bit different when tuning for me it goes from burbling right to a lean die out. I always goe from rich to kean then back to a light 4 stroke. It is a great saw i like it. I do think in a slow paced deal like that it needs less oil for sure. I probably will back off on oil for it. My other saws are all fine with the 32-40:1.


----------



## bwalker

Coldfront said:


> The question is are you looking for best performance, or what is best for the saw longevity? Personally I am just cutting firewood not in a race contest. I will sacrifice a second or 2 per cut for the longer life of the saw.


Most of the people on this site will never wear out a saw. Or even come close to it.
Any oil that is actually Jaso FD certified oil will provide great service in a saw without a doubt.


----------



## KG441c

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=311344778881&alt=web


----------



## KG441c

Thats only 16$ per liter on 800t off road. About as cheap as Ive seen


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Thats only 16$ per liter on 800t off road. About as cheap as Ive seen


That's cheap. 
I found some 2r for $8.60 a quart.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> That's cheap.
> I found some 2r for $8.60 a quart.


Last 800t I bought was 22 per l


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Last 800t I bought was 22 per l


I am paying more than that. K2 is higher yet. Leads me to ask if eather is nearly 3x better than 2R or is it better at all when ran in a chainsaw?


----------



## bwalker

smokey7 said:


> On a oil related note i used my 011 for some slow paced tree trimming today. I was using amsoil saber pro at 32:1, i had a fair bit of smoking. I assume it is because of the lower temps short runtime. Once i got into some longer cuts it cleaned right up with no smoke. I think this oil may do better at 50:1 on the smoking .


You have to kind of expect that with an oil designed to run at a much higher ratio.


----------



## KG441c

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=161846124828&alt=web


----------



## KG441c

A tad over 15$ per l


----------



## ray benson

bwalker said:


> That's cheap.
> I found some 2r for $8.60 a quart.


2r is $14 a qt. at our local bike shop.


----------



## bwalker

ray benson said:


> 2r is $14 a qt. at our local bike shop.


Your getting raped. I believe list price is $10.50


----------



## KG441c

http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=181570785657&alt=web


----------



## KG441c

ALil over 11$ per qt.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Yamalube is $9.99 a quart here. I burned about a gallon and a half of it mixed today cutting down 4 Black Walnut trees at a buddie house.

I love when my weekends consist of what i do all week[emoji2]


----------



## KG441c

2r is 13$ a pint at my local Honda shop!!! Lol!!!


----------



## Coldfront

Last liter of 800 2t off road I paid $19 Last me about 1 year.


----------



## redbull660

porsche965 said:


> Who is paying for all this Red Bull?




We are saving for a Down payment on a house. I have borrowed from that account...if we weren't saving for a house none of the testing I've done in the last year would have happened. Currently I owe that acct about 4k. Once I sell my bars and chain and a saw or 2. I should have that paid back...then wifey will be happy again.

TRX has donated some oil and been a big buyer of "test" chain from me. Has given great input on questions I've had.
Mdavelee has bought some bars and chain from me and been a big help with questions I've had. Great input.
Porche965 - donated a bunch of oil.
Moparmyway - donated some k2 and bought a bunch of chain from me.
Tree Monkey - gave me a good deal on a couple of rolls of chain. 
Ken Jax is sending some hp2
Big T Double - always answering questions and looking up part #s for me. He's da man!

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Sorry if I did.

Mostly though it's a ton of time. I cut a lot of wood for my friend who heats with it and he in turn is friends with a guy who runs a tree cutting service. So I end up getting 3-4 loads of big stuff during the summer. Test on it and then cut it into pieces my friend can burn.

A lot goes into the tests before they happen. For example right now I bought about $1000 in bars and chain (cannons tsumuras 3/8ths RS 404 RS 404 RSLF 3/8 carbide) to figure out which setup I wanted to use for the oil test. Mdavelee will attest to that! lol ...spent a number of hours yesterday testing cannon and tsumura and 7 and 8 pin and different lengths etc. Going out again today to finish up a few little ideas and make sure on some other stuff.

Right now it's looking like

28" tsumura 3/8 carbide 8pin
28" tsumura 404 RS 7pin
28" total super bar 3/8 RS .050 8pin - I don't have this bar...anyone know where to get one cheap?

If it's RS 3/8 or 404 I'll need about 25 loops just to do 4 oils. Carbide probably only 1 per oil.


----------



## Jimbo209

redbull660 said:


> If it's RS 3/8 or 404 I'll need about 25 loops just to do 4 oils. Carbide probably only 1 per oil.


How long do you spend spinning each chain or do you use a Electric spinner


----------



## redbull660

Jimbo209 said:


> How long do you spend spinning each chain or do you use a Electric spinner



I only test with new stuff. 1 less variable to deal with and it's a BIG variable IMO. 

counting takes the longest. breaking and spinning is easy. Not a big deal usually since I'm just making chain as I need it. 

If it's RS 25 loops i'll try and make a deal with my dealer to just get the boxes of the stuff already put together. 25loops... That would take a while. I guess we'll see what the difference in cost is. Selling tested chain isn't exactly easy so price is everything.


----------



## Jimbo209

redbull660 said:


> I only test with new stuff. 1 less variable to deal with and it's a BIG variable IMO.
> 
> counting takes the longest. breaking and spinning is easy. Not a big deal usually since I'm just making chain as I need it.
> 
> If it's RS 25 loops i'll try and make a deal with my dealer to just get the boxes of the stuff already put together. 25loops... That would take a while. I guess we'll see what the difference in cost is. Selling tested chain isn't exactly easy so price is everything.


I feel your pain with counting, I did nail on a 2*1 timber chain lengths to ease that problem.
Boss uses 84dl 36rs, ill ask what his trade price is if you need


----------



## Trx250r180

If you guys ever need chain ,this test stuff is normally oem stihl ,real good stuff if not the best out there ,a lot of the chains he tests with i run out of the box ,unless i can tell it has hit the ground ,then i will put it through the grinder .He has deducted for any that needed sharpen ,very fair prices ,i can not get them at my local saw shop as good a price even with shipping included .


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> If you guys ever need chain ,this test stuff is normally oem stihl ,real good stuff if not the best out there ,a lot of the chains he tests with i run out of the box ,unless i can tell it has hit the ground ,then i will put it through the grinder .He has deducted for any that needed sharpen ,very fair prices ,i can not get them at my local saw shop as good a price even with shipping included .



I second this on the used chain ! 

I had some that hit some knots or rocks, but I wanted some square filed anyway.
Most have been as sharp as new, and IIRC, the .404 RM was in fact unused.

Although, now that TRX mentioned it, I see Redbull has been playing favorites cause I never got no deductions


----------



## Jimbo209

Moparmyway said:


> I second this on the used chain !
> 
> I had some that hit some knots or rocks, but I wanted some square filed anyway.
> Most have been as sharp as new, and IIRC, the .404 RM was in fact unused.
> 
> Although, now that TRX mentioned it, I see Redbull has been playing favorites cause I never got no deductions


The Rocked/smashed/bent 36rsl I got was cheaper then the good ones, TRX BE TROOTH FOOL in his state ment


----------



## redbull660

TRX buys the stuff that has more than just a few test cuts on it. Which works out for him because he re-cuts it to his specs no matter what I send him. Works good for me as well. When you test as much as I do you are bound to hit stuff in the wood. Nails, dirt, rocks, wire, etc etc.

TRX has also bought A LOT of chain from me. So thanks man!


ok well im off to try a few more ideas.


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> TRX buys the stuff that has more than just a few test cuts on it. Which works out for him because he re-cuts it to his specs no matter what I send him. Works good for me as well. When you test as much as I do you are bound to hit stuff in the wood. Nails, dirt, rocks, wire, etc etc.
> 
> TRX has also bought A LOT of chain from me. So thanks man!
> 
> 
> ok well im off to try a few more ideas.


I'd get more chain from you - but I gots some 066's that need lovin too.

Thinking of grabbing more .404 RSL from you soon


----------



## Trx250r180

This stuff looks new still guys ,i have a mixture of round full comp ,and square full skip ,i have one box i have not even opened yet ,have had too many other projects so milling is on the backburner right now .


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> This stuff looks new still guys ,i have a mixture of round full comp ,and square full skip ,i have one box i have not even opened yet ,have had too many other projects so milling is on the backburner right now .
> View attachment 456454
> View attachment 456455
> View attachment 456456


 I need some 063 in 404 for a bar I'll be getting in the future.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> We are saving for a Down payment on a house. I have borrowed from that account...if we weren't saving for a house none of the testing I've done in the last year would have happened. Currently I owe that acct about 4k. Once I sell my bars and chain and a saw or 2. I should have that paid back...then wifey will be happy again.
> 
> TRX has donated some oil and been a big buyer of "test" chain from me. Has given great input on questions I've had.
> Mdavelee has bought some bars and chain from me and been a big help with questions I've had. Great input.
> Porche965 - donated a bunch of oil.
> Moparmyway - donated some k2 and bought a bunch of chain from me.
> Tree Monkey - gave me a good deal on a couple of rolls of chain.
> Ken Jax is sending some hp2
> Big T Double - always answering questions and looking up part #s for me. He's da man!
> 
> I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Sorry if I did.
> 
> Mostly though it's a ton of time. I cut a lot of wood for my friend who heats with it and he in turn is friends with a guy who runs a tree cutting service. So I end up getting 3-4 loads of big stuff during the summer. Test on it and then cut it into pieces my friend can burn.
> 
> A lot goes into the tests before they happen. For example right now I bought about $1000 in bars and chain (cannons tsumuras 3/8ths RS 404 RS 404 RSLF 3/8 carbide) to figure out which setup I wanted to use for the oil test. Mdavelee will attest to that! lol ...spent a number of hours yesterday testing cannon and tsumura and 7 and 8 pin and different lengths etc. Going out again today to finish up a few little ideas and make sure on some other stuff.
> 
> Right now it's looking like
> 
> 28" tsumura 3/8 carbide 8pin
> 28" tsumura 404 RS 7pin
> 28" total super bar 3/8 RS .050 8pin - I don't have this bar...anyone know where to get one cheap?
> 
> If it's RS 3/8 or 404 I'll need about 25 loops just to do 4 oils. Carbide probably only 1 per oil.


Don't get me wrong, I think your completely crazy, but $4k spent on a hobby you enjoy is pretty cheap all things considered. I have that much into a set of Leica Geovid binocular rangefinder and a Zeiss scope for my main hunting rifle. Not to mention other hunting equipment like fourwheelers, other rifles, wall tents, clothing, boots, etc.


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think your completely crazy, but $4k spent on a hobby you enjoy is pretty cheap all things considered. I have that much into a set of Leica Geovids binocular rangefinder and a zeiss scope for my main hunting rifle. Not to mention other hunting equipment like fourwheelers, other rifles, wall tents, clothing, boots, etc.



Buying multiple 661s is quite a bit different than making a video of a used 50cc 260 and build. Not to mention all the chain, bars and time. 

Add in borrowing from a general fund shared with your partner and yep...a bit of both crazy and guts.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Buying multiple 661s is quite a bit different than making a video of a used 50cc 260 and build. Not to mention all the chain, bars and time.
> 
> Add in borrowing from a general fund shared with your partner and yep...a bit of both crazy and guts.


The 260 was NIB when I bought it. And yes the testing RB is doing is not the same, nor close to it.
My point was that saws are a pretty damn cheap hobby compared to alot of stuff, even at RB'S level of insanity.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think your completely crazy, but $4k spent on a hobby you enjoy is pretty cheap all things considered. I have that much into a set of Leica Geovid binocular rangefinder and a Zeiss scope for my main hunting rifle. Not to mention other hunting equipment like fourwheelers, other rifles, wall tents, clothing, boots, etc.


 Same here with hunting equipment (mostly custom long-range rifles) and I'm still wanting more ported saws I don't need.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Same here with hunting equipment (mostly custom long-range rifles) and I'm still wanting more ported saws I don't need.


I don't even want to estimate how much I have into hunting stuff. At least I quit snowmobiles. That's a real money pit!


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I don't even want to estimate how much I have into hunting stuff. At least I quit snowmobiles. That's a real money pit!


 The last time I brought a new gun home my wife said, "Well does this complete your collection"? I said did your last purse you bought complete your collection?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> The last time I brought a new gun home my wife said, "Well does this complete your collection"? I said did your last purse you bought complete your collection?


some of them fancy ones cost more than our saws too


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> some of them fancy ones cost more than our saws too


 A lot more. My last 264 build was nearly $2500 and that's without a scope.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> A lot more. My last 264 build was nearly $2500 and that's without a scope.


Was referring to the purses  put Louis Vuitton on the label and can buy several saws for the price


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Was referring to the purses  put Louis Vuitton on the label and can buy several saws for the price


 I also have three daughters so I've learned pursue brand names, and cost, not by choice.


----------



## KenJax Tree

My wife has Coach and Vera Bradley purses


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> Was referring to the purses  put Louis Vuitton on the label and can buy several saws for the price



My woman spent 1400 on a LV bag..i dont care really , But i could think of a few other things to spend it on.


----------



## Trx250r180

SAWMIKAZE said:


> My woman spent 1400 on a LV bag..i dont care really , But i could think of a few other things to spend it on.


as long as it makes her happy is all good .


----------



## porsche965

...and then there is racing...


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> ...and then there is racing...


OHHHH bringin up the race thing huh


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't tell my wife how to spend money and she doesn't tell me. All the bills are paid......aaannnnnnnd she makes more than i do.


----------



## porsche965

My wife's a Dr. and she still can't catch me


----------



## KenJax Tree

My lady is a Physical Therapist, so close to a Dr. but not quite[emoji1]


----------



## porsche965

We need more oil testing Red Bull! How can we all help?


----------



## KenJax Tree

I gotta get some HP2 and send it when i get back over that way.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> The last time I brought a new gun home my wife said, "Well does this complete your collection"? I said did your last purse you bought complete your collection?


I have had the talk where by I point out that I can resell a gun for nearly what I bought it for, but her stuff has very little worth as soon as it's in her hands.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> A lot more. My last 264 build was nearly $2500 and that's without a scope.


The parts alone for one of my main rifles cost over $4k I bet. Then there is gunsmithing, load development, etc know a guy that has several Echol's Legends at 14k per.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The parts alone for one of my main rifles cost over $4k I bet. Then there is gunsmithing, load development, etc know a guy that has several Echol's Legends at 14k per.


Similar rifles I've seen like my 264 are 4K+ without a scope. I'm sure my ported saws will last longer than my magnum barrels.


----------



## huskihl

Ron660 said:


> Similar rifles I've seen like my 264 are 4K+ without a scope. I'm sure my ported saws will last longer than my magnum barrels.


Maybe you should use h1r as bullet lube. It's gotta be good for something, no?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Similar rifles I've seen like my 264 are 4K+ without a scope. I'm sure my ported saws will last longer than my magnum barrels.


I always keep several Rock Creek 30 cal tubes on hand!


----------



## mdavlee

I've been wanting to build a straight 284 on a savage long action so I can seat further out with the 175-190 grain bullets. I'm over the big magnums sinceover 1k yards is hard to come by in my part of the country. If I could shoot 2k then a 300 Norma or a 375CT would be my pick.


----------



## bwalker

With the advent of rangefinders, high BC bullets and BDC reticles/turret scopes a magnum is no longer needed or even desirable for long range shooting.
I shoot a 300 ultra as my main gun to put elk down with authority. This is important in the area of MT I hunt as there is private ground with public around it. As such a long death run isn't desirable.
Anything with high velocity kills deer and the like handily.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have to be honest ...........I have no idea what you guys are talking about .........


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Trx250r180 said:


> I have to be honest ...........I have no idea what you guys are talking about .........



I just put my water pistol away..i felt inadequate.


----------



## redbull660

I've been doing some bar comparison, chain comparison, and sprocket comparison testing lately. Here is a test I did yesterday...

time - faster or slower then another combo, really doesn't matter to me. I am looking for consistency.

I was applying regular or just natural feel as far as pressure applied to saw/handle goes. I am not exactly sure what happened on the 3rd cuts. Maybe you guys can tell... But I do remember starting to think about the pressure I was applying on the saw/handle. Usually I don't think about it. I just go and do the test and my times are/have been consistent in the past.

Point - it taught me I just need to do it and not evaluate what im doing while in the cut. I seem to be just fine as long as I don't think about it. 

Next consideration - which chain is most likely to help show it, if the saw has a gain in power or a loss in power. 

7pin 3/8 RS - almost like the saw is too strong for this combo. Call me crazy but, to me it seems that the cutters get dull faster on the 661 then when I was testing 3/8RS on the 660 (which has a lot less torque). Anyway, due to the torque of the 661 I think this combo would look good almost no matter. In other words, the torque of the saw is so strong that even losing some power, the 3/8ths chain wouldn't really reflect it. Although, h1r did lose 7 seconds on avg in about a 30sec cut from 50:1 down to 32:1. 

8pin 3/8 RS - Not sure I like this combo as you have to be more careful on the pressure. Seems easier to bog it down etc. 

7pin 404 RS - Don't care for the wider kerf. But this stuff ...applying natural pressure is easy. Pretty much just self feeds. I think this combo would show a gain or loss in power pretty easily. The chain holds up amazingly well. 

7pin 404 RSLF - seems like the times were the most consistent with this setup. Again self feed with natural pressure. But it doesn't really feel like your biting into the wood like with the RS. So part of me thinks that it wouldn't show AS WELL a loss of power or gain of power. 

All that said - see what you guys think.


7pin 3/8 RS times - 20.3 20.3 20.8 



8 pin 3/8 RS times - 22.1 21.8 22.9



7pin 404 RS times - 22.5 22.3 23.1



7pin 404 RSLF times - 25.7 25.9 25.7 25.8


----------



## mdavlee

I think 7 pin 404


----------



## Trx250r180

I read in the internet you need an 880 to pull .404 

Last one may have been slower ,but looked smoothest .


----------



## Deleted member 83629

a piltz kit would help that saw


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I've been wanting to build a straight 284 on a savage long action so I can seat further out with the 175-190 grain bullets. I'm over the big magnums sinceover 1k yards is hard to come by in my part of the country. If I could shoot 2k then a 300 Norma or a 375CT would be my pick.


 I shot my custom 264 yesterday. That Krieger barrel likes the berger 140gr hunting vld's the best so far. It held 1.05" at 375yds...slight wind too. Seating depth was standard length. I'll play with seating depth next. Next best were barnes tsx 120gr. that measured 2.7".


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I think 7 pin 404


 Mike, will the 404 last longer than 3/8"?


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> I've been doing some bar comparison, chain comparison, and sprocket comparison testing lately. Here is a test I did yesterday...
> 
> time - faster or slower then another combo, really doesn't matter to me. I am looking for consistency.
> 
> I was applying regular or just natural feel as far as pressure applied to saw/handle goes. I am not exactly sure what happened on the 3rd cuts. Maybe you guys can tell... But I do remember starting to think about the pressure I was applying on the saw/handle. Usually I don't think about it. I just go and do the test and my times are/have been consistent in the past.
> 
> Point - it taught me I just need to do it and not evaluate what im doing while in the cut. I seem to be just fine as long as I don't think about it.
> 
> Next consideration - which chain is most likely to help show it, if the saw has a gain in power or a loss in power.
> 
> 7pin 3/8 RS - almost like the saw is too strong for this combo. Call me crazy but, to me it seems that the cutters get dull faster on the 661 then when I was testing 3/8RS on the 660 (which has a lot less torque). Anyway, due to the torque of the 661 I think this combo would look good almost no matter. In other words, the torque of the saw is so strong that even losing some power, the 3/8ths chain wouldn't really reflect it. Although, h1r did lose 7 seconds on avg in about a 30sec cut from 50:1 down to 32:1.
> 
> 8pin 3/8 RS - Not sure I like this combo as you have to be more careful on the pressure. Seems easier to bog it down etc.
> 
> 7pin 404 RS - Don't care for the wider kerf. But this stuff ...applying natural pressure is easy. Pretty much just self feeds. I think this combo would show a gain or loss in power pretty easily. The chain holds up amazingly well.
> 
> 7pin 404 RSLF - seems like the times were the most consistent with this setup. Again self feed with natural pressure. But it doesn't really feel like your biting into the wood like with the RS. So part of me thinks that it wouldn't show AS WELL a loss of power or gain of power.
> 
> All that said - see what you guys think.
> 
> 
> 7pin 3/8 RS times - 20.3 20.3 20.8
> 
> 
> 
> 8 pin 3/8 RS times - 22.1 21.8 22.9
> 
> 
> 
> Saw stock or ported?
> 7pin 404 RS times - 22.5 22.3 23.1
> 
> 
> 
> 7pin 404 RSLF times - 25.7 25.9 25.7 25.8




Stock or ported?


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> Mike, will the 404 last longer than 3/8"?


Yes. Bigger teeth


----------



## porsche965

mdavlee said:


> Yes. Bigger teeth



Just like the Ex Wife. Big and Sharp.


----------



## porsche965

.....and man you should see that ported broom she rides!


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I read in the internet you need an 880 to pull .404
> 
> Last one may have been slower ,but looked smoothest .


 Different avator? Time to change mine I guess.


----------



## Ron660

porsche965 said:


> .....and man you should see that ported broom she rides!


 Is it piped?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I shot my custom 264 yesterday. That Krieger barrel likes the berger 140gr hunting vld's the best so far. It held 1.05" at 375yds...slight wind too. Seating depth was standard length. I'll play with seating depth next. Next best were barnes tsx 120gr. that measured 2.7".


I use to fart around trying to get loads down to 1/4 MOA. Burnt lots of powder and barrels up. Also got sick of it. Now if a load shoots 3/4 to a 1/2", has low extreme spreads, gets top velocity and is temp resistant I just roll with it. Current load for my 300 rum is a stiff charge of Retumbo, Rem brass, Rem 9 1/2M, and a 180 gr Barnes TTSX @3400 fps. Not crazy about the Barnes bullets but I have a bunch of them to burn off before I look at something else. Probaly just go back to a 180 Nosler BT, which flat out fubars elk.


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> Stock or ported?



stock.


Yesterday - I tested the carbide chain. It holds up well but I think the 404 RS would show any differences in power better.

I also tested the need for doing the Reset or not. So I mixed up some H1R

log 1
H1R 50:1 19.8 19.9 20.4
H1R 32:1 22.2 21.8 22.3
H1R 32:1 with Reset 21.9 22.3 22.4

log 2
H1R 50:1 24.1 24.4
H1R 32:1 with reset - 26.6 27.0 

Reset - I reset the saw and then cut for a while. Doesn't seem to make a bit of difference in times. Which would agree with what stihl techs have said...changing oil or oil ratios isn't a big enough change to need to do reset. But I double checked. So there we go.

So method will be

do test, dump gas, put in new mix, warm up saw, do 10-15 cuts, change to new chain, clean filter, top off gas & oil, do next test cuts. repeat.


Oil to test

R50 - 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1
2R - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1
Hp2 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1
K2 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1

depending if there is enough wood amsoil saber 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1

pretty sure on those ratios. may change em slightly take out 36 and go with 50. I don't know yet.


----------



## redbull660

The idea is to find the best ratio of each oil. Then test it against the other winners. So hypothetically it could end up being...

R50 40:1
vs
2R -36:1
vs
hp2 40:1
vs
K2 45:1

This would tell us on the same day with the same conditions XYZ oil was best. I think ideal ratio changes with conditions. Such as weather, particular saw size & power etc etc, chain type, wood type etc. The point here is to find the best performer on the day in the same exact conditions. What ratio wins...I could care less.

Certainly I hope the ratios are very close.

Is this the best way to do it? I don't know. But that is one of the reasons I'm doing 4 oils right now and the rest later.


and of course i am still open to suggestions. But this is how I've got it planned as of right now.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> stock.
> 
> 
> Yesterday - I tested the carbide chain. It holds up well but I think the 404 RS would show any differences in power better.
> 
> I also tested the need for doing the Reset or not. So I mixed up some H1R
> 
> log 1
> H1R 50:1 19.8 19.9 20.4
> H1R 32:1 22.2 21.8 22.3
> H1R 32:1 with Reset 21.9 22.3 22.4
> 
> log 2
> H1R 50:1 24.1 24.4
> H1R 32:1 with reset - 26.6 27.0
> 
> Reset - I reset the saw and then cut for a while. Doesn't seem to make a bit of difference in times. Which would agree with what stihl techs have said...changing oil or oil ratios isn't a big enough change to need to do reset. But I double checked. So there we go.
> 
> So method will be
> 
> do test, dump gas, put in new mix, warm up saw, do 10-15 cuts, change to new chain, clean filter, top off gas & oil, do next test cuts. repeat.
> 
> 
> Oil to test
> 
> R50 - 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1
> 2R - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1
> Hp2 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1
> K2 - 32:1 36:1 40:1 45:1
> 
> depending if there is enough wood amsoil saber 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1
> 
> pretty sure on those ratios. may change em slightly take out 36 and go with 50. I don't know yet.


 
Winner takes on 800 off-road?


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> Winner takes on 800 off-road?



winner takes on

800 off road
h1r
stihl ultra
si7
dumonde tech
schaeffers
mobil 1
amsoil if i don't do it on this test.
maybe 710 I don't have that one yet.


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> winner takes on
> 
> 800 off road
> h1r
> stihl ultra
> si7
> dumonde tech
> schaeffers
> mobil 1
> amsoil if i don't do it on this test.
> maybe 710 I don't have that one yet.


Take a break and do some hunting.


----------



## mdavlee

I've got some dumonde to try soon.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Take a break and do some hunting.


Cheese land deer season doesn't open for a few weeks IIRC.


----------



## redbull660

next saturday and sunday look like the last days it'll be above 50F. Got 25 chains ordered.

been getting used to cutting without the spikes..








also took the top cover off. Have an idea that i'll test out on monday or tuesday...taking temp at the top of the cylinder between the plug and decomp. Good idea? Seems like it would be quicker, easier and more consistent then what I've been doing on the side.


----------



## blsnelling

I would not use the saw without the engine shroud installed. You will not be getting proper cooling. With the shroud installed, air from the flywheel is forced over and around the cylinder. With the shroud removed that will not work near as well. Your cylinder temps will climb.


----------



## zorak

funky sawman said:


> I been running mine with motul 800 2t off road, at 40:1, Im not liking what I see on top the piston



What are you seeing on top of the piston? Carbon build up or a heat issue? Im running the same oil.


----------



## smokey7

I wouldn't run that saw without its cover for more then a minute or two. It will get way too hot I think.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> I would not use the saw without the engine shroud installed. You will not be getting proper cooling. With the shroud installed, air from the flywheel is forced over and around the cylinder. With the shroud removed that will not work near as well. Your cylinder temps will climb.




well that solves that idea!


new idea while I was sleeping haha

instead of amsoil. I'll do stihl ultra with this group and do it first. Thinking if I do stihl ultra first at 50:1 I'll have a baseline of what the saw "should" do.

So new list

Stihl ultra (first for sure) maybe do 50:1 , 45:1 40:1. Although no one seems to like how this stuff burns at 40:1. Remember maulheads piston after 10 tanks? heh

2r
hp2
r50
k2


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> next saturday and sunday look like the last days it'll be above 50F. Got 25 chains ordered.
> 
> been getting used to cutting without the spikes..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also took the top cover off. Have an idea that i'll test out on monday or tuesday...taking temp at the top of the cylinder between the plug and decomp. Good idea? Seems like it would be quicker, easier and more consistent then what I've been doing on the side.


A good place to measure temp is at the raised area the plug screws into. I would put a dot with a sharpie for a target. 
Or even not bother with temps as it really doesn't matter in regards to what your testing and your previous tests indicated pretty small differances.


----------



## bwalker

zorak said:


> What are you seeing on top of the piston? Carbon build up or a heat issue? Im running the same oil.


If your not tuned properly and have enough load 800 is on the dirty side.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well that solves that idea!
> 
> 
> new idea while I was sleeping haha
> 
> instead of amsoil. I'll do stihl ultra with this group and do it first. Thinking if I do stihl ultra first at 50:1 I'll have a baseline of what the saw "should" do.
> 
> So new list
> 
> Stihl ultra (first for sure) maybe do 50:1 , 45:1 40:1. Although no one seems to like how this stuff burns at 40:1. Remember maulheads piston after 10 tanks? heh
> 
> 2r
> hp2
> r50
> k2


For simplicity I would use 32:1, 40:1 and 50:1.
Save some chain too.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> For simplicity I would use 32:1, 40:1 and 50:1.
> Save some chain too.


This would be my approach as well.


----------



## zorak

bwalker said:


> For simplicity I would use 32:1, 40:1 and 50:1.
> Save some chain too.



Forgive me if I sound stupid. But why would the fuel ratio mix have a effect on the chain wear?


----------



## bwalker

zorak said:


> Forgive me if I sound stupid. But why would the fuel ratio mix have a effect on the chain wear?


It doesnt. Redbull is using a new chain for each test. Less ratios tested equals less chain used


----------



## zorak

bwalker said:


> It doesnt. Redbull is using a new chain for each test. Less ratios tested equals less chain used



Ah OK. Now I see a lot of were prefeing to use the .404 over the 3/8 chain why is that? Doesn't the .404 take more power to turn?


----------



## mdavlee

zorak said:


> Ah OK. Now I see a lot of were prefeing to use the .404 over the 3/8 chain why is that? Doesn't the .404 take more power to turn?


Stays sharp longer and is a bigger tooth which lasts longer overall. Not much difference really. I'm going to try a 32" full skip 404 on my 044 tomorrow.


----------



## zorak

mdavlee said:


> Stays sharp longer and is a bigger tooth which lasts longer overall. Not much difference really. I'm going to try a 32" full skip 404 on my 044 tomorrow.



Ah OK. I'm not a professional tree person/logger. So I'll stick with the 3/8 chain.


----------



## mdavlee

If you're in dirty firewood and have a 70cc or bigger saw it will last great.


----------



## Andyshine77

While I found Brad's 661 to be a fine saw with ample power, great AV and Stihl's always great build quality. The Mtronic system leaves much to be desired in tuning consistency. It would be tha last saw I'd use for any type of fuel testing IMHO.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## zorak

mdavlee said:


> If you're in dirty firewood and have a 70cc or bigger saw it will last great.



I have a ported 395xp with 36" bar right now but gonna put a 42" on it. Where I live we have big trees to cut. I didn't fall this one but is one.left over from a logged area. Its at least 5' at the cut area.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> While I found Brad's 661 to be a fine saw with ample power, great AV and Stihl's always great build quality. The Mtronic system leaves much to be desired in tuning consistency. It would be tha last saw I'd use for any type of fuel testing IMHO.


I think it will be fine. It's only that occasional stumble off idle. That wouldn't affect this testing at all. It will be key that he makes a couple cuts to get it up to temperature because it does run a little rich the first couple cuts. After that, I find it to be very consistent.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Cheese land deer season doesn't open for a few weeks IIRC.


We have a long deer season. Oct.1st to mid-Jan. Early Oct. is bow and primitive weapon. Late Oct. starts modern/regular gun. Dog running is allowed first week of December. We're allowed to harvest six per season.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I think it will be fine. It's only that occasional stumble off idle. That wouldn't affect this testing at all. It will be key that he makes a couple cuts to get it up to temperature because it does run a little rich the first couple cuts. After that, I find it to be very consistent.


That's fine, but I totally disagree. Again the 661 is a fine saw, however the tuning seemed a bit erratic at times, and IMHO that's what is causing some the stumbling problems. Obviously these saws have issues to some extent, therefore they simply cannot be relied on. Any testing done that requires constancy and repeatability will be impossible with that saw. Why use a saw model that has know problems? That makes no sense, unless the person performing the test can't tune a saw properly, which is what I'm guessing. I mean I wouldn't rely on a 562 for the same reason. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## bwalker

W


Andyshine77 said:


> That's fine, but I totally disagree. Again the 661 is a fine saw, however the tuning seemed a bit erratic at times, and IMHO that's what is causing some the stumbling problems. Obviously these saws have issues to some extent, therefore they simply cannot be relied on. Any testing done that requires constancy and repeatability will be impossible with that saw. Why use a saw model that has know problems? That makes no sense, unless the person performing the test can't tune a saw properly, which is what I'm guessing. I mean I wouldn't rely on a 562 for the same reason.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


Not sure about the 661, but my 562 has always been spot on. Never bogged or ran anything but perfectly.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> W
> 
> Not sure about the 661, but my 562 has always been spot on. Never bogged or ran anything but perfectly.


Mostly referring to the early production runs. I ran a few that were total dogs. I also thought you said the 661 was a mess. At least that's what I remember you saying, I could be wrong. 

I would ask if the system works so well, why is Brad and others, looking to run a normal carb on the 661?[emoji9] Again the 661 I ran was very stout, had a great feel, build quality and so on. But I'm not sure about it's fuel management system. 

I call it as I see it.


----------



## porsche965

I ran my third NIB 661 today. Performed perfectly. Actually ran both a NIB 390 as well. Hands down the 661 all the way.

At the end of the day I asked myself why did I buy this all orange turd compared to the 661, other than it will be visiting Cincinnati in time.

The 562xp and 550xp are great saws. Can't wait for both the 70 and 90cc Husky replacements. Standing orders for when they hit.

The ported 365xt ran right with the 390, however it is broken in and turning 14700 now. No guts no glory. I even re-tuned and ran a tank of 58:1 just for fun. Xtorques like to run on the lean side I've found. Another good running saw.

Until you own a 661 and have put days of hard work on one really can a tank or two be any kind of assessment? But then again this is AS site lol.


----------



## zorak

Andyshine77 said:


> Mostly referring to the early production runs. I ran a few that were total dogs. I also thought you said the 661 was a mess. At least that's what I remember you saying, I could be wrong.
> 
> I would ask if the system works so well, why is Brad and others, looking to run a normal carb on the 661?[emoji9] Again the 661 I ran was very stout, had a great feel, build quality and so on. But I'm not sure about it's fuel management system.
> 
> I call it as I see it.



I know a lot of us are brand specific. And I see a lot of people bashing huskys cause they aren't running electronic carbs on there bigger saws. But I've read a lot of people saying the new 661 has idle and stumbling problems off idle. But on all my carbed huskys I've never had that issue unless I had a dirty carb from sitting to long. Now I'm not a logger or tree cutter I'm just a weekend wood cutter. So there for I'm always cutting wood in the same altitude ranging from 5800-7000'. So my carbed saws don't run any different that I can tell between the elevations.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> I ran my third NIB 661 today. Performed perfectly. Actually ran both a NIB 390 as well. Hands down the 661 all tge way.
> 
> At the end of the day I asked myself why did I buy this all orange turd compared to the 661, other than it will be visiting Cincinnati in time.
> 
> The 562xp and 550xp are great saws. Can't wait for both the 70 and 90cc Husky replacements. Standing orders for when they hit.
> 
> The ported 365xt ran right with the 390, however it is broken in and turning 14700 now. No guts no glory. I even re-tuned and ran a tank of 58:1 just for fun. Xtorques like to run on the lean side I've found. Another good running saw.
> 
> Until you own a 661 and have put days of hard work on one really can a tank or two be any kind of assessment? But then again this is AS site lol.


Is the 390 ported?


----------



## zorak

porsche965 said:


> I ran my third NIB 661 today. Performed perfectly. Actually ran both a NIB 390 as well. Hands down the 661 all tge way.
> 
> At the end of the day I asked myself why did I buy this all orange turd compared to the 661, other than it will be visiting Cincinnati in time.
> 
> The 562xp and 550xp are great saws. Can't wait for both the 70 and 90cc Husky replacements. Standing orders for when they hit.
> 
> The ported 365xt ran right with the 390, however it is broken in and turning 14700 now. No guts no glory. I even re-tuned and ran a tank of 58:1 just for fun. Xtorques like to run on the lean side I've found. Another good running saw.
> 
> Until you own a 661 and have put days of hard work on one really can a tank or two be any kind of assessment? But then again this is AS site lol.



How can you compare two differnt size stock saw to one another? There is almost 4cc difference between them. The 390xp is smaller saw. You need to Compare it to a new 395xp to make a fair comparison.


----------



## porsche965

NIB just like the 661R today. Both first tanks.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> NIB just like the 661R today. Both first tanks.


Oh ya. That 390 has to be ported but I know the 661 is strong even stock


----------



## porsche965

zorak said:


> How can you compare two differnt size stock saw to one another? There is almost 4cc difference between them. The 390xp is smaller saw. You need to Compare it to a new 395xp to make a fair comparison.



4 cc. Well I'll be. You are right. But I didn't want a 395xp. Then it would be to the Husky advantage by a couple of cc with a 395 and that extra weight don't interest me. Brad's 390s run great once he gets done with them. That was the purpose of the buy.

Just wait till the 390's replacement gets here. That should be one very nice saw.


----------



## zorak

Also the stock 390xp has 6.3hp compared to 7.2hp with 661cm. Son you have almost 1hp difference as well.


----------



## porsche965

What would you compare a 390xp to? Exactly? 

And I sure am not your son. Pops.


----------



## porsche965

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/products/chainsaws/390-xp/965060720/

Husky claims 6.5hp. You are wrong Zorak, no surprise.


----------



## porsche965

Go clean your dirty carbs zorak. Post #7849


----------



## zorak

Well you can't compare it to a bigger saw that's for sure. But by the sound of it your pro stihl.


----------



## porsche965

zorak said:


> Well you can't compare it to a bigger saw that's for sure. But by the sound of it your pro stihl.



You are wrong again. Dolmar, Husky, and Stihl. All run great, and that 390xp will run like Brad makes them run! Then the 661 will have it's hands full, or may be even smelling exhaust fumes I hope! Not brand specific. Performance Specific all the way.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Mostly referring to the early production runs. I ran a few that were total dogs. I also thought you said the 661 was a mess. At least that's what I remember you saying, I could be wrong.
> 
> I would ask if the system works so well, why is Brad and others, looking to run a normal carb on the 661?[emoji9] Again the 661 I ran was very stout, had a great feel, build quality and so on. But I'm not sure about it's fuel management system.
> 
> I call it as I see it.


Brad had one that was a blubbering mess. IIRC he found out what was wrong with it?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Brad had one that was a blubbering mess. IIRC he found out what was wrong with it?


 
I have no idea, I think a new intake boot helped?


----------



## Andyshine77

It doesn't take long to get a good idea of how a saw runs or handles. As I said the 661 is a fine saw, but I'd wait a few years to buy one. I honestly don't care to be a beta tester, like many of the early 550/562 owners. 

I also don't many retired people that work all day running saws.


----------



## porsche965

Andyshine77 said:


> It doesn't take long to get a good idea of how a saw runs or handles. As I said the 661 is a fine saw, but I'd wait a few years to buy one. I honestly don't care to be a beta tester, like many of the early 550/562 owners.
> 
> I also don't many retired people that work all day running saws.



Are you doubting me Andy? Want to compare tax returns and post them?


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I think the 390 vs 661 argument needs to be put to bed until the AT 90cc husky arrives..if it follows the trend its most likely gonna edge out the 661 in overall speed.


----------



## porsche965

I hit the gym 2 hours a day and train youngsters under 40 that try to keep up. Firemen, State Patrolmen, etc. Chainsaws are a hobby and a great way to get exercise for 4-6 hours when I hit it. Care to join me?  Just show up and run my stable Andy, you are more than welcome!

I also am vested in numerous 5 star Hotels that you can stay in for free. This is fun for me.


----------



## porsche965

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I think the 390 vs 661 argument needs to be put to bed until the AT 90cc husky arrives..if it follows the trend its most likely gonna edge out the 661 in overall speed.



I THINK I agree lol. Love my Huskies and Stihls.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

porsche965 said:


> I THINK I agree lol. Love my Huskies and Stihls.



So do i , i have zero brand bias.


----------



## porsche965

Back to the oil testing. I do have a question regarding the outcome of the testing that Red Bull will do. 

Will anyone change their current use of whatever oil or ratio depending upon the outcome of this guy, Red Bull's hard work and expense?


----------



## porsche965

Bring your workout clothes, saws, and checkbook. I'll buy your air fare home


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Back to the oil testing. I do have a question regarding the outcome of the testing that Red Bull will do.
> 
> Will anyone change their current use of whatever oil or ratio depending upon the outcome of this guy, Red Bull's hard work and expense?


No, because I dont own a 661.


----------



## porsche965

Andyshine77 said:


> You're insane.



You haven't even scratched the surface 

Let's get back to oil ratios can we?


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> No.



I told Red Bull this. At this point, with THIS answer, Red Bull should stop his testing. What for?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> No, because I dont own a 661.



Exactly.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I told Red Bull this. At this point, with THIS answer, Red Bull should stop his testing. What for?


See my edit.
This test is only relevent to the saw in question and even then I have concerns with ability to control variables.
I have a track record with several oils, know how they perform long term and have no interest in finding every last bit of performance. If I were, I would look at many other areas before I went after oil.
Redbull should do this test if he wants to and he doesn't need any other reason.


----------



## svk

Back to your corners boys.


----------



## porsche965

I haven't left mine yet (corner, nor will I) lol. But will tone things down. Guys bring claims and then don't or can't back it up. Don't own the saws in question, I do and can 

Thanks for the post SVK.

So, just why should Red Bull even continue with this "test" that at least Bwalker, or suspecting many others, will not consider? He should save his money and time IMO. OR.....OR.....charge for viewing the results! 

Like Pay Per View! I'm in! $20 ?? Sounds fair to me. Wallets boys?


----------



## bwalker

Redbull, can do as he wishes, free country and all.
And I never said I wouldn't consider the results, just that they are not applicable to anything I own.


----------



## porsche965

What about AS site being in charge of the viewing results of a Pay per View for expensive testing like this?

Great income for the Arborist Site and the disclosure of the results. It isn't fair that ONE guy should take on the amount of expense for many others for many years to come, all alone. Those that benefit should pay.

I for one, have always been in agreement that Arboristsite should charge for membership. The Advertisers don't pay in enough for the hard work that goes on behind the scenes on a site like this.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> What about AS site being in charge of the viewing results of a Pay per View for expensive testing like this?
> 
> Great income for the Arborist Site and the disclosure of the results. It isn't fair that ONE guy should take on the amount of expense for many others for many years to come, all alone. Those that benefit should pay.
> 
> I for one, have always been in agreement that Arboristsite should charge for membership. The Advertisers don't pay in enough for the hard work that goes on behind the scenes on a site like this.


I wouldn't pay a dime for this test as it just doesn't matter to me.
If Redbull wants to seek out investors for a private test have at it. I would not be one.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

I think these tests are cool/insane..i wouldnt pay a dime to find out the results thats for sure


----------



## porsche965

I think that would be the majority. As expected


----------



## Andyshine77

I have zero issue with RB or his test, I merely made suggestions, he is free to ignore them and do as he wishes. Now that he seems to be running saws better making timed cuts, I simply suggest a non Mtronic saw may be a better idea if possible. 

Now lately I've found some issues with Stihl chain, the tooth lengths have been all over the place, which whiten reason isn't a big deal and is pretty normal for stock chain. What does make a big difference is depth gauge height. I have some fresh 3/8 RS chain with around .015" of clearance, needles to say the chain didn't cut very well without setting the depth gauges to the right height.


----------



## porsche965

Andyshine77 said:


> I have zero issue with RB or his test, I merely made suggestions, he is free to ignore them and do as he wishes. Now that he seems to be running saws better making timed cuts, I simply suggest a non Mtronic saw may be a better idea if possible.
> 
> Now lately I've found some issues with Stihl chain, the tooth lengths have been all over the place, which whiten reason isn't a big deal and is pretty normal for stock chain. What does make a big difference is depth gauge height. I have some fresh 3/8 RS chain with around .015" of clearance, needles to say the chain didn't cut very well without setting the depth gauges to the right height.



When I've encountered depth inconsistencies in chain I strap it on the strongest saw I have and the HP usually makes it disappear. The smaller cc saws, it really shows up. Agree with the inconsistencies in chain as of late.


----------



## bwalker

Chain is but one of the variables present. Human operator, tuning/Mtronic, material being cut that variable density and size. And these are just for the low hanging fruits.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Chain is but one of the variables present. Human operator, tuning/Mtronic, material being cut that variable density and size. And these are just for the low hanging fruits.



Agreed. With that said baby steps are better than non at all.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Chain is but one of the variables present. Human operator, tuning/Mtronic, material being cut that variable density and size. And these are just for the low hanging fruits.


This is why I would eliminate all but 32:1, 40:1, and 50:1. Going any closer than that is definitely beyond the percentage of error.


----------



## redbull660

final list -

1. stihl ultra 8.5 viscosity 432F flash to see what the saw "should do"
2. R50 19.1 visc 550F flash - 

so you have high flash points and opposite viscosity

3. Hp2 17.8 visc 221F flash
4. k2 13.5 visc 240F flash
5. 2r 8.5 visc 255 F flash

so here you have declining visc with the nearly same flash #s.

I don't know if the visc or flash will play a part in results. But I guess I figured I'd try to at least use some method in picking the oils for this first test.


predictions... I'm going to go with the low viscosity... I think it'll come down to stihl 50:1 or 2r at say 40:1 but kinda hoping hp2 takes the cake. I like honda. But mainly I just hope there is a clear winner in all of this.


----------



## KG441c

Ill pick k2. It has been serving me well lately


----------



## mdavlee

K2 is good stuff. I think I like it better than Mobil. Going to try dumonde here as well.


----------



## bwalker

K2 is decent but seriously over priced IMO.


----------



## Trx250r180

Dumonde has the quickest response of the ones i have tried ,and ran best in a wider range of tuning.


----------



## mdavlee

If I get time tomorrow or Friday I'll try it. Need to buck up the oak and beech here I knocked down yesterday.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Dumonde has the quickest response of the ones i have tried ,and ran best in a wider range of tuning.


I sure haven't noticed any differance with it. 
Tuning is what mostly effects response.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I sure haven't noticed any differance with it.
> Tuning is what mostly effects response.


In my stock saw was not as noticable but my hybrid was
My plug was also the cleanest of all i have tried,piston top of what i could see through the mufflet was also


----------



## Andyshine77

K2 is good stuff I ran it for years, lately I've been running Honda hp2 and so far it seems to run even cleaner than K2, and runs fine @32:1 in Mtronic saws. The only oil I've ever had tuning issues with was H1R, and even than a little screwdriver did the trick, never ran the stuff in an Mtronic saw.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## smokey7

I can't believe this thread is almost @400 pages!!! sometimes I wish our passion with some egos mixed in didnt fuel some of these rough posts. If nothing is proven best at least a good list of high quality oils are available. Even if someone has to read 400 pages to find it.


----------



## porsche965

Oil seems to be like ice cream. Always a new flavor of the month lol.

I have always owned Honda products in one form or another. Still do. Good company.


----------



## Stihlman441

So what company makes the oil for Honda ?
Like Castrol makes it for Stihl (in Ozz anyway)


----------



## KG441c

Stihlman441 said:


> So what company makes the oil for Honda ?
> Like Castrol makes it for Stihl (in Ozz anyway)


Ive heard Yamaha and Mobil makes Honda oils


----------



## nitehawk55

I'm thankful for Redbull investing his time and money into these tests . It will be interesting if there will be any noticable results that show some oils do perform/burn cleaner than others .
What can it hurt ?
BTW , thanks RB for doing this and taking a lot of unnecessary negativity from certain members .


----------



## PhilMcWoody

Side story.

Dodge Logavan was pinging me to CHANGE OIL the last week even though the dealership supposedly did it just 1,000 miles ago (What's up with that?)
anyway I decided to check it and top it up -- not that it needed topping with a little fresh as insurance until i could get back to the dealer to see what was up.

Only recognizable brand in the gas station shop was Castrol Syntec -- all the others brands with names like CAM I had never heard of before
$10 a bottle -- nearly fell on my arse. Last one I bought at a supermarket was $3 a long time ago.


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> I'm thankful for Redbull investing his time and money into these tests . It will be interesting if there will be any noticable results that show some oils do perform/burn cleaner than others .
> What can it hurt ?
> BTW , thanks RB for doing this and taking a lot of unnecessary negativity from certain members .


Redbull is only testing cut times FYI.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Redbull is only testing cut times FYI.



Do you think a non-mtronic ported saw would produce different results? Guess I need to test after hunting season.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Do you think a non-mtronic ported saw would produce different results? Guess I need to test after hunting season.


Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> Do you think a non-mtronic ported saw would produce different results? Guess I need to test after hunting season.



the goal is not to say this oil and this ratio. It's just to find the best performing oil. Based on cutting times and temps. 

If it's possible to establish that? (depends on the results). Then, the ratio is all the remains, and that IMO depends on a lot of factors...so whatever you want to run! lol 




nitehawk55 said:


> I'm thankful for Redbull investing his time and money into these tests . It will be interesting if there will be any noticable results that show some oils do perform/burn cleaner than others .
> What can it hurt ?
> BTW , thanks RB for doing this and taking a lot of unnecessary negativity from certain members .



thx dude

yeah I am really hoping to find a clear winner or any sort of pattern or trend.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> In my stock saw was not as noticable but my hybrid was
> My plug was also the cleanest of all i have tried,piston top of what i could see through the mufflet was also


Sounds like your hybrid is just tuned crisper.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> the goal is not to say this oil and this ratio. It's just to find the best performing oil. Based on cutting times and temps.
> 
> If it's possible to establish that? (depends on the results). Then, the ratio is all the remains, and that IMO depends on a lot of factors...so whatever you want to run! lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thx dude
> 
> yeah I am really hoping to find a clear winner or any sort of pattern or trend.


You have a ton of things to consider for sure.
As I said previously, based on your previous test the temp differance are pretty small, so I would even worry about testing temps.


----------



## RedFir Down

redbull660 said:


> This would tell us on the same day with the same conditions XYZ oil was best. I think ideal ratio changes with conditions. Such as weather, particular saw size & power etc etc, *chain type, wood type etc*. The point here is to find the best performer on the day in the same exact conditions. What ratio wins...I could care less.


Im curious, what does chain type, wood type etc. have to do with 2 cycle oil.


----------



## KG441c

RedFir Down said:


> Im curious, what does chain type, wood type etc. have to do with 2 cycle oil.


Load on the saw


----------



## blsnelling

Load is dictated by the operator, regardless of chain, wood type, or size.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Load is dictated by the operator, regardless of chain, wood type, or size.


True. Some people dont believe u can dog even the biggest saw out though. I hadnt seen one yet up to 90cc range that I couldnt


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> the goal is not to say this oil and this ratio. It's just to find the best performing oil. Based on cutting times and temps.
> 
> If it's possible to establish that? (depends on the results). Then, the ratio is all the remains, and that IMO depends on a lot of factors...so whatever you want to run! lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thx dude
> 
> yeah I am really hoping to find a clear winner or any sort of pattern or trend.


After your results I'll test the winner against 800 off-road and a few more in my ported 660 to determine if the results are the same. I appreciate the testing. What octane will you use?


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> True. Some people dont believe u can dog even the biggest saw out though. I hadnt seen one yet up to 90cc range that I couldnt


You need a ported 660


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> You need a ported 660[/QUOTE
> Thats a strong saw u got ole buddy. Bet u will like 404 on it better after u try it


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> You need a ported 660





blsnelling said:


> Load is dictated by the operator, regardless of chain, wood type, or size.


Which makes testing very hard..unless your someone like Cahoon or the like


----------



## KG441c

Still with the variables involved I think Redbull has some good baselines in these test and alota time and effort. I myself dont think his test are a waste of time in any way and appreciate his efforts and look foward to the results


----------



## Ron660

390xp very strong saw....you have a good one


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Which makes testing very hard..unless your someone like Cahoon or the like


My highest priorities with oil are protection and cleanliness. Speed differences are interesting though. I don't carry a stop watch when I'm cutting firewood but it's still entertaining.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Which makes testing very hard..unless your someone like Cahoon or the like



luckily I pre-tested this problem and found a solution..

email to another member here that I bounce stuff off of.

Played with 28 cannon 3/8ths wide tip vs 28 tsumura 3/8ths and also the 36 cannon wide 3/8ths tip vs 36” tsumura 3/8ths.

Spent a lot of time fcking around with these bars today. I spent some the other day fcking with them as well. Here are my observations…


First I started by doing single cuts in ash. The degree in which I applied pressure and how warm the saw varied. But here are the times.


7pin 28 can = 19.7 sec saw warm natural pressure.

7pin 28 tsu = 20.8 sec saw not warm natural pressure.

7pin 28 tsu = 21.6 sec saw warm but light pressure

7pin 28 can = 24.3 sec saw not warm but light pressure


Basically I was just hoping I could get a clear sense of the differences with out much work. The last cut threw me off. I knew they were close the other day.


Ok so going more scientific now. So thinking light pressure = slow times on the cannon let’s try all max pressure and see what we think. Max pressure = just below what would really bog down the saw.

7pin can – saw warm/ready, MAX pressure. 22.4 22.1



7pin tsu – didn’t do my normal burn cut to get saw warm/ready, max pressure. 21.6 19.1 so first cut slow.



So at this point there is some confusion …but let’s try 8pin.


Tsumura first this time.

8pin tsu – saw warm/ready, MAX Pressure – 19.0, 19.4 so these were back to back from the 7pin max pressure cut. Ok consistency. GOOD. But confusion…I’ve got MAX Pressure on 7pin and 8pin and I’m coming up with same times 19s. Lol moving on



8 pin can – saw warm/ready , MAX Pressure – 19.7 19.1 ok WTF I had max pressure on 7pin and was doing 22 sec cuts. Now I have max pressure with an 8pin and I have 19 sec cuts? You would think the wood was bigger before. But my very very first cut of the day…in this email was a 19.7. 8pin can – continued…I did a 3rd cut with just medium heavy pressure. Basically a little more than natural - 18.3 sec. LOL


----------



## redbull660

Moving on to 36” (different logs) these are 7pin based on my 7 vs 8 pin test with 36” bar.

36 can warm up cut 24.3



36 can warm and ready – 23.6 21.1 I know the first cut was heavy pressure and I think the 2nd one I was getting tired of doing max pressure so I don’t think I was putting as much force on it. Saw was warm and ready as I did a warm up cut.



36 tsum warm up 23.3 so about 1 sec faster than 36 can



36 tsu 19.4 19.4 19.4 1st and 2nd cut natural pressure 3rd cut max pressure.



Ok taking all this data into consideration. Including the data from the other day.


Tsumura - Seems the tsumura doesn’t care much if it’s 7 or 8 pin on the 28 and doesn’t seem to care much if it’s natural pressure up to max pressure. The warm cuts with natural and max pressure were all 19s. This seems to hold true with the 36” bar on a different log. Granted I only did 7pin stuff.


Cannon – This bar is picky..


- You have to tension it just right. I think it’s VERY easy it get it too tight. The tsumura is far more forgiving. Obviously it has to do with the wide nose on the cannon.

- It doesn’t care for light pressure and it doesn’t care for max pressure.

- The bar seems to thrive on chain speed. Given how the times vary with different pressure, seems pretty fcking indicative that the wide nose has some sort of effect on torque.


So I think I’ll test my theory and try for natural pressure on the cannon with 7 and 8pin vs 8pin tsumura natural on 28”. Also do the 36” again natural on both. Also I think when I test 404 on the 28’s that stuff is pretty much self feeding so it would be highly interesting if natural pressure holds true or the extra torque the 404 requires shows the cannon for what it’s for….increases chain speed and depends on that and reduces torque. Anyway at this point I’m just curious if I can make it faster than the tsumura. I wouldn’t use it for the oil test. It’s too sensitive to pressure…thus inconsistent. Furthermore it’s easy to screw up the tension. But it is interesting to me as it seems to have the capability to be a racing bar. Maybe I”ll try 36” RSLF as well …with an 8pin.


OIL TEST –


So at this point it’s 28 tsumura with RD3 carbide chain 8pin figure the carbide will be easy to sell, won’t dull, and will provide a little more resistance vs RS. Ie. Take longer…which is fine. I ordered some and will get it on Thursday I hope and evaluate it.

Or

28 tsumura with 404 RS. Saw still has the power to pull this stuff…30 is pushing it. Your talking 83dl vs 91dl. Anyway 404 7 sprocket is right in the middle IIRC of the 7 3/8 and 8 3/8. Provides enough resistance that you get a nice self feed from natural pressure. It should be some what easy to sell, but I’ll have to remake it into custom lengths.

OR

28 total super bar with 28” RS chains. Just don’t know if this chain provides enough resistance. The .050 would be nice for resell. Total is a solid bar and runs same speed as tsumura well just a touch slower. Probably due to the heat dissipation of the cut outs on the light bar.


*few days later ...*


i did the 36" cuts with natural pressure.

36 tsumura = 19s nat pressure
36 can = 22.5 then 25.1 lol nat pressure cut1 22.5, then I must of lightened up or something...I honestly don't know! cuz i got 25.1 lol

36 tsumura again just to test it ...19.7

ok trying 3/8 full skip

36 tsumura with full skip 3/8 7pin - 28s nat pressure
36 tsumura with full skip 3/8 8 pin - 26s nat pressure
36 cannon with full skip 3/8 8 pin 25s finally bar won. 8pin with wide nose and a full skip chain = a lot of chain speed.


so what does all this sh*t mean? best I can figure...

the wide tip, Basically creates some sort of different gearing. Which..

1. makes the bar depend on chain speed more or the new gearing creates more chain speed.

2. must reduce torque or something cuz it's very inconsistent if your pressure is mildly inconsistent. Just don't know how else to describe it. The Tsumura doesn't seem to give a fck. Just pumps out the same times no matter what. Cannon is all over the place. AND I know this wasn't true of the narrow tip!!! So it's just that fcking wide tip.

All that said about the wide tip - I still like it a ton. I just love how it cuts....i dunno just something about it. BUT it's just not consistent for this test.


----------



## porsche965

I just don't know what to say


----------



## redbull660

Later on I tested carbide with 7 and 8 pin and it just wasn't going to maintain the same speed for as many cuts as I need it to. It's great stuff but I'm asking it to be the same speed after about 100 cuts. It's close but it's just not going to happen.

Today I was figuring out what ratios to do. 32 40 and 50 are the obvious ones. So I made this up to see the percentages differences that are in play...

32:1 has 12.4% more oil in the mix than 36:1
32:1 has 25.0% more oil in the mix than 40:1
32:1 has 40.8% more oil in the mix than 45:1
32:1 has 56.3% more oil in the mix than 50:1


36:1 has -11.0% less oil in the mix than 32:1
36:1 has 11.2% more oil in the mix than 40:1
36:1 has 25.2% more oil in the mix than 45:1
36:1 has 39.0% more oil in the mix than 50:1


40:1 has -20.0% less oil in the mix than 32:1
40:1 has -10.1% less oil in the mix than 36:1
40:1 has 12.6% more oil in the mix than 45:1
40:1 has 25.0% more oil in the mix than 50:1


45:1 has -29.0% less oil in the mix than 32:1
45:1 has -20.1% less oil in the mix than 36:1
45:1 has -11.2% less oil in the mix than 40:1
45:1 has 11.0% more oil in the mix than 50:1


50:1 has -36.0% less oil in the mix than 32:1
50:1 has -28.1% less oil in the mix than 36:1
50:1 has -20.0% less oil in the mix than 40:1
50:1 has -9.9% less oil in the mix than 45:1



*beyond that the most interesting tid bit of the last few days, is the testis I have done in pre-testing between different oils. * It seems that viscosity may just end up playing the largest role here.

basically...

the lowest visc's have been doing best even at 32:1

I talked to andrew about it.

summary -

- higher visc oil...much stronger film strength but is causing a film strength that is slowing the piston down. IN a chainsaw! Cuz we are talking much higher horse power with bikes etc vs chainsaws.

- and you can't really reduce the film strength of a high visc oil with out reducing ratio well past 50:1 or a point/ratio, that is probably unsafe.

- visc is obviously not the only factor in play. Lubricity - is also at play. So while you may have a oil with a low visc is still may end up being slower than a high visc number due to it's lesser lubricity/quality.

Point - most likely the lower visc oils are going to prevail. *And it would seem to make sense to take the fastest performer (indicator of high lubricity) with the highest viscosity (film strength) at a ratio which ya'll can live with. I think Temps will play a key role in determining if a ratio is too high.*

All that said - checking some of the dedicated chainsaw oils out there - from what i can tell they all have viscs in the 7s and 8s.

there really aren't any metrics on "lubricity". it's not exactly easy to get a number to compare. So you have to test the oils.


----------



## Trx250r180

porsche965 said:


> I just don't know what to say


I do ...........Thanks @redbull660 ,i like the leftovers from the tests. I am getting a pretty good stock of .404 now ,75-80 % of the chain i am running out of the box ,a few have hit dirt ,so i fix them before use .


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I just don't know what to say


My head hurts...


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> My head hurts...


 Have a beer


----------



## bwalker

As I have said before the downside to high viscosity oils is they are harder to get to burn cleaner.
This is why also JASO oils are lower in Viscosity vs something like R-50.


----------



## Mastermind

OK..........I've seen enough. 

Unsubscribing.........again.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> the lowest visc's have been doing best even at 32:1
> 
> I talked to andrew about it.
> 
> summary -
> 
> - higher visc oil...much stronger film strength but is causing a film strength that is slowing the piston down. IN a chainsaw! Cuz we are talking much higher horse power with bikes etc vs chainsaws.
> 
> - and you can't really reduce the film strength of a high visc oil with out reducing ratio well past 50:1 or a point/ratio, that is probably unsafe.
> 
> - visc is obviously not the only factor in play. Lubricity - is also at play. So while you may have a oil with a low visc is still may end up being slower than a high visc number due to it's lesser lubricity/quality.
> 
> Point - most likely the lower visc oils are going to prevail. *And it would seem to make sense to take the fastest performer (indicator of high lubricity) with the highest viscosity (film strength) at a ratio which ya'll can live with. I think Temps will play a key role in determining if a ratio is too high.*
> 
> All that said - checking some of the dedicated chainsaw oils out there - from what i can tell they all have viscs in the 7s and 8s.
> 
> there really aren't any metrics on "lubricity". it's not exactly easy to get a number to compare. So you have to test the oils.


What are you referring to when you say lubricity?
I would also not discount how an oil influences combustion. Some oils inhibit combustion while others dont.


----------



## Andyshine77

I've heard a lot on AS over the years, never thought I'd hear someone describe a chainsaw bar as being picky.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Holy farkin sheet..

Thats all for me.


----------



## gunnusmc03

Wide nose can't change "gearing". It's an idler wheel.


----------



## KG441c

gunnusmc03 said:


> Wide nose can't change "gearing". It's an idler wheel.


What does widenose do better or not? Should bore and cut better with the nose buried as the radius isnt as small and the back edge of the tooth isnt hitting the wood at such an extreme angle with more resistance?


----------



## Andyshine77

Yes the wide nose will bore better.


----------



## Jon1212

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes the wide nose *will bore* better.


Kinda like this thread..........

Zing!..........


----------



## rogue60




----------



## Moparmyway

I dont think this is all for nothing, there is some valuable info here if you know what you are looking at.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Moparmyway said:


> I dont think this is all for nothing, there is some valuable info here if you know what you are looking at.



One of you guys is gonna have to point out what i need to look at , i have ADD i cant read that long..ive seen oils affect cut times by 1 or 2 seconds and 20 degree changes in bar temps..im tryin to hang in.


----------



## tree monkey

1 second in a race is a big deal


----------



## Moparmyway

To add more perspective to what tree monkey just said, chains that are 1-2 tenths off are culled for firewood duties


----------



## mdavlee

Moparmyway said:


> To add more perspective to what tree monkey just said, chains that are 1-2 tenths off are culled for firewood duties


Or practice chains.


----------



## bwalker

Jon1212 said:


> Kinda like this thread..........
> 
> Zing!..........


Your still reading it..


----------



## Jon1212

bwalker said:


> Your still reading it..



Well, to be accurate, the page I posted on was the second page I read. I guess I'm easily bored.


----------



## Trx250r180

Got any doughnuts left Jon ?


----------



## Jon1212

Trx250r180 said:


> Got any doughnuts left Jon ?




Maybe?


----------



## big t double

does that doughnut have fcking bacon on it?!?! Im gonna need your doughnut hookup.


----------



## abramj

redbull660 said:


> Moving on to 36” (different logs) these are 7pin based on my 7 vs 8 pin test with 36” bar.
> 
> 36 can warm up cut 24.3
> 
> 
> 
> 36 can warm and ready – 23.6 21.1 I know the first cut was heavy pressure and I think the 2nd one I was getting tired of doing max pressure so I don’t think I was putting as much force on it. Saw was warm and ready as I did a warm up cut.
> 
> 
> 
> 36 tsum warm up 23.3 so about 1 sec faster than 36 can
> 
> 
> 
> 36 tsu 19.4 19.4 19.4 1st and 2nd cut natural pressure 3rd cut max pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok taking all this data into consideration. Including the data from the other day.
> 
> 
> Tsumura - Seems the tsumura doesn’t care much if it’s 7 or 8 pin on the 28 and doesn’t seem to care much if it’s natural pressure up to max pressure. The warm cuts with natural and max pressure were all 19s. This seems to hold true with the 36” bar on a different log. Granted I only did 7pin stuff.
> 
> 
> Cannon – This bar is picky..
> 
> 
> - You have to tension it just right. I think it’s VERY easy it get it too tight. The tsumura is far more forgiving. Obviously it has to do with the wide nose on the cannon.
> 
> - It doesn’t care for light pressure and it doesn’t care for max pressure.
> 
> - The bar seems to thrive on chain speed. Given how the times vary with different pressure, seems pretty fcking indicative that the wide nose has some sort of effect on torque.
> 
> 
> So I think I’ll test my theory and try for natural pressure on the cannon with 7 and 8pin vs 8pin tsumura natural on 28”. Also do the 36” again natural on both. Also I think when I test 404 on the 28’s that stuff is pretty much self feeding so it would be highly interesting if natural pressure holds true or the extra torque the 404 requires shows the cannon for what it’s for….increases chain speed and depends on that and reduces torque. Anyway at this point I’m just curious if I can make it faster than the tsumura. I wouldn’t use it for the oil test. It’s too sensitive to pressure…thus inconsistent. Furthermore it’s easy to screw up the tension. But it is interesting to me as it seems to have the capability to be a racing bar. Maybe I”ll try 36” RSLF as well …with an 8pin.
> 
> 
> OIL TEST –
> 
> 
> So at this point it’s 28 tsumura with RD3 carbide chain 8pin figure the carbide will be easy to sell, won’t dull, and will provide a little more resistance vs RS. Ie. Take longer…which is fine. I ordered some and will get it on Thursday I hope and evaluate it.
> 
> Or
> 
> 28 tsumura with 404 RS. Saw still has the power to pull this stuff…30 is pushing it. Your talking 83dl vs 91dl. Anyway 404 7 sprocket is right in the middle IIRC of the 7 3/8 and 8 3/8. Provides enough resistance that you get a nice self feed from natural pressure. It should be some what easy to sell, but I’ll have to remake it into custom lengths.
> 
> OR
> 
> 28 total super bar with 28” RS chains. Just don’t know if this chain provides enough resistance. The .050 would be nice for resell. Total is a solid bar and runs same speed as tsumura well just a touch slower. Probably due to the heat dissipation of the cut outs on the light bar.
> 
> 
> *few days later ...*
> 
> 
> i did the 36" cuts with natural pressure.
> 
> 36 tsumura = 19s nat pressure
> 36 can = 22.5 then 25.1 lol nat pressure cut1 22.5, then I must of lightened up or something...I honestly don't know! cuz i got 25.1 lol
> 
> 36 tsumura again just to test it ...19.7
> 
> ok trying 3/8 full skip
> 
> 36 tsumura with full skip 3/8 7pin - 28s nat pressure
> 36 tsumura with full skip 3/8 8 pin - 26s nat pressure
> 36 cannon with full skip 3/8 8 pin 25s finally bar won. 8pin with wide nose and a full skip chain = a lot of chain speed.
> 
> 
> so what does all this sh*t mean? best I can figure...
> 
> the wide tip, Basically creates some sort of different gearing. Which..
> 
> 1. makes the bar depend on chain speed more or the new gearing creates more chain speed.
> 
> 2. must reduce torque or something cuz it's very inconsistent if your pressure is mildly inconsistent. Just don't know how else to describe it. The Tsumura doesn't seem to give a fck. Just pumps out the same times no matter what. Cannon is all over the place. AND I know this wasn't true of the narrow tip!!! So it's just that fcking wide tip.
> 
> All that said about the wide tip - I still like it a ton. I just love how it cuts....i dunno just something about it. BUT it's just not consistent for this test.



I don't know if you have been watching the show numbers or if you just think this way, but I gotta say i like your style. [emoji106] 

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk


----------



## redbull660

at the playground ...




well it took a lot longer than I thought it would. And I didn't even finish!

Stihl ultra 50:1 and 45:1 done
R50 - 50:1, 45:1, 40:1, 32:1 done
HP2 - 50:1 , 45:1, 40:1 , 32:1 done

working on the vids now....results etc. Will go back tomorrow to do K2 and 2R. 

Liking the Hp2. Didn't care for 50:1 in any of them. So probably won't do 50:1 in k2 or 2R.


----------



## big t double

Nice trunk bomb


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> at the playground ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well it took a lot longer than I thought it would. And I didn't even finish!
> 
> Stihl ultra 50:1 and 45:1 done
> R50 - 50:1, 45:1, 40:1, 32:1 done
> HP2 - 50:1 , 45:1, 40:1 , 32:1 done
> 
> working on the vids now....results etc. Will go back tomorrow to do K2 and 2R.
> 
> Liking the Hp2. Didn't care for 50:1 in any of them. So probably won't do 50:1 in k2 or 2R.



What happened with the 50:1 tests?


----------



## Jon1212

big t double said:


> does that doughnut have fcking bacon on it?!?! Im gonna need your doughnut hookup.


Yes. Maple and Bacon between the Rasberry, and Cookies& Cream doughnuts. Ask @Four Paws how good they are? I brought some to his place in Idaho, for him and his family.


----------



## Arborisjedi

I have a gl4500-m that I just removed the base gasket from I've tuned and run a tank of fuel doing cuts definitely has more torque. It says on it to run 25:1 I'm just wondering if I can run 32:1? I'm more then happy to run more oil then spec in newer or ported saw. Wanna know if I can run less oil then spec when it's 25:1.
Here a pic of the saw


----------



## bwalker

Arborisjedi said:


> View attachment 461708
> I have a gl4500-m that I just removed the base gasket from I've tuned and run a tank of fuel doing cuts definitely has more torque. It says on it to run 25:1 I'm just wondering if I can run 32:1? I'm more then happy to run more oil then spec in newer or ported saw. Wanna know if I can run less oil then spec when it's 25:1.
> Here a pic of the saw


32:1 with a good air cooled oil will be fine. However, if you are worried about 25:1 wouldn't hurt anything either.


----------



## redbull660

don't have much time to explain results. I have to get out there before it rains and do k2 and 2r


Stihl 661 muffler modded. BP 91 octane ethanol free, 28" tsumura, .404 RS chain new chain per ratio. Stihl orange bar oil if that makes a difference to ya. Cleaned air filter and topped off gas and oil before start of each test. Starting temp of the saw before each test was ~225 F. Temps didn't really change much at all so don't really matter.

order of cuts are as shown.

log 1 stayed good/same until 2nd cut in hp2 40:1. I cut into a cut I did earlier in the log before I decided to save it.

log 2 is same through ultra and r50. then I cut it some and started hp2. So you can't compare the hp2 log 2 times with the others.

log 3 - changes. it was just meant to try and increase the temps. Some of the cuts from ratio to ratio can be looked at...gotta get the video up. But mainly it's to see how hot i could get the saw...which didn't work. and to see if the cuts per ratio would be close to each other.

ultra 50:1 - saw runs nice but times go to hell after the first cut. don't understand it exactly (have ideas why) but I don't care.

ultra 45:1 - this was the ratio I would run in the 660's and 361. I ran 50:1 and tried this and just liked it better. Last time I just tested 50:1 and 40:1. 40:1 did worse than 50:1. I've tried 40:1 didn't care for it. @maulhead didn't have good results with it. If your going to run ultra I would suggest 45:1. I have a number of years running 50:1 and 45:1 and I'd take 45:1 over it every time in the 361 461 660 or now 661.


R50 - 32:1 - is the winner out of ratios tested. However I think 32:! is still a little heavy. After multi cuts in log 3, you can see in the video the saw struggles. Maybe the high flash burn off point... the oil can't burn off and get out of the way for the new stuff coming into the jug? I dunno for sure, I don't care either. 40:1 and 45:1 ran good as well. 50:1 seemed like the saw screamed and lacked power? Kinda like 50:1 ultra. I can't stand the smell of this sh*t. But I'll run 32:1 against the other winners.

other winners - ultra 45:1 is obviously going to lose and I don't care to spend the time testing it. It takes a lot of time to cut with the new stuff get it into the saw and change gas and chain etc. It's pointless. If you like ultra - great. Like 50:1..great I don't care. I would say to consider trying 45:1. Hard to believe it makes that big of a difference but the logs were good. Sorry.

Hp2 - 32:1 again won. and again I think the saw felt a little sluggish. But it was much better than R50 32:1 in feel. This hp2 stuff ran very very nicely. I would like to test this stuff again with 32: 36 and 40:1. Little to no smell on this stuff. Out of the 3 the hp2 ran the nicest for sure. I think it ran nice at 32: 40 and 45. again 50:1 seemed "screamy" and lacking power so I didn't do the log 2 cuts. Could just tell right away. 50:1..ok but 32 40 45 better for sure.

Don't read into these to much yet. Still have to test k2 and 2r which have progressively lower viscosities. They may destroy the likes of hp2 and r50. Who knows. 

Anyway...

Going to go test K2 and 2R and put those winners up against 32:1 hp2 and 32:1 r50. Later


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> Hp2 - 32:1 again won. and again I think the saw felt a little sluggish. But it was much better than R50 32:1 in feel. This hp2 stuff ran very very nicely. I would like to test this stuff again with 32: 36 and 40:1. Little to no smell on this stuff. Out of the 3 the hp2 ran the nicest for sure. I think it ran nice at 32: 40 and 45. again 50:1 seemed "screamy" and lacking power so I didn't do the log 2 cuts. Could just tell right away. 50:1..ok but 32 40 45 better for sure.



Felt sluggish, but the times said otherwise. Perception is just that. The Times are all so close they mean nothing IMHO. Run the oil you want at the ratio you want and go cut wood. 

Running the saw on different days will have it's effect on the results as well, but I'll likely read the results anyway.

Nonetheless thanks for the honest results.


----------



## bwalker

So far the testing jives with the testing Gordon Jennings did 30 some years ago, which is what I expected.


----------



## bwalker

BTW Redbull. You must be a real cull...not liking the smell of Klotz! Super techniplate smells even better than r50!


----------



## KenJax Tree

The smell of Klotz makes nauseous in about 5 minutes.


----------



## bwalker

The old Castrol snowmobile oil takes the cake for worst smelling oil in my book..smelled like a mix of burnt rubber and burnt plastic.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ran a saw yesterday ,it was pig rich ,must be the damp cold air ,or does the cold make the oil thicker ?Redbull is going to have to retest all these oils now ,because the warm days and cold days tune differently


----------



## blsnelling

Cooler air typically makes a saw run leaner. Humidity probably goes the other direction.


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> Cooler air typically makes a saw run leaner. Humidity probably goes the other direction.


Maybe it was the 16 inch pico bar on the hybrid then ,it is tuned for a 32 with .404 ,the o26 would not start ,was not getting fuel for some reason ,so i put the baby bar on the hybrid to do the carpentry work .Or maybe was the dense air ,we been getting abnormal lots of rain lately .maybe it was not loading the saw enough to clean up in the cut ?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

follow these guidelines if you are brave enough 
nothing has died on me yet following this .


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## KG441c

jakewells said:


> follow these guidelines if you are brave enough
> nothing has died on me yet following this .
> View attachment 461873
> 
> View attachment 461874


 !! Nope!! Im a coward!!!


----------



## Bwildered

this should throw a spanner in the works! has anybody considered checking the times using a low viscosity engine oil against the higher bar oil viscosity?
thansk


----------



## KG441c

Makes sense. We use to cut our lower unit fluid with 50% transmisson fluid in our outboard drag motors we raced and gained around 200rpm on the bigend


----------



## redbull660

k2 testing -

log 1 32:1 - 22.1 22.7
log 1 40:1 - 23.1 23.8

log2 32:1 - 18.7 18.5
log2 40:1 - 19.4 20.1

log3 was consistent for both cuts so they are comparable

log3 32:1 - 11.2 11.0 11.2 10.9
log3 40:1 - 11.3 11.5 12.3 11.9

Obviously 40:1 was much slower so I didn't even bother with 45 or 50:1.

I also cut with 32:1 and 40:1 yamalube 2r. pretty obvious that 32:1 was better. So instead of doing an un-needed 2r test. I set up for tomorrow.

So it'll be

R50 vs Hp2 vs 2R vs K2 all 32:1 ...


----------



## blsnelling

You did this in the rain?!!! Wow, you're way more dedicated than I would have been, lol. I'm a wuss when it comes to being wet.

Very interesting findings. Am I correct that every oil has been fastest at 32:1, with the only exception being H1-R?

When do you get your ported 661 back? I suspect that you'll find the same to be there too. I think only a couple spot checks would be required to confirm that.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> You did this in the rain?!!! Wow, you're way more dedicated than I would have been, lol. I'm a wuss when it comes to being wet.
> 
> Very interesting findings. Am I correct that every oil has been fastest at 32:1, with the only exception being H1-R?
> 
> When do you get your ported 661 back? I suspect that you'll find the same to be there too. I think only a couple spot checks would be required to confirm that.


Pretty much jives with previous research.


----------



## Trx250r180

Put dumonde in one of the 50 to 1 timeslots ,you should have extra chain now .


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> You did this in the rain?!!! Wow, you're way more dedicated than I would have been, lol. I'm a wuss when it comes to being wet.
> 
> Very interesting findings. Am I correct that every oil has been fastest at 32:1, with the only exception being H1-R?
> 
> When do you get your ported 661 back? I suspect that you'll find the same to be there too. I think only a couple spot checks would be required to confirm that.



rain - yeah. wasn't too bad. There is about 2-3 hr window tomorrow when it won't be raining or light rain, so that is when im going to do final test.

correct on h1r.

ported 661 - he's doing 3 661's for me...so no idea.




Trx250r180 said:


> Put dumonde in one of the 50 to 1 timeslots ,you should have extra chain now .



I'd start out with 32:1 and 40:1 and see which was faster. Then go to 45:1 and then maybe 50:1. As it is I have zero info on that oil. So start out on the safe side I guess. They don't respond to email. I simply asked viscosity #s. 

Since 32:1 seems to be the norm. Going forward, I'll probably mix up 32 and 40 and try those two and go from there. So testing more oil should be pretty damn easy relative to what I was figuring.


----------



## Andyshine77

I bet a castor based oil would beat them all.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> I bet a castor based oil would beat them all.


Maxima Castor 927 for the win!


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Am I correct that every oil has been fastest at 32:1, with the only exception being H1-R?



Brad my assumption all along was the Mtronic system/carb on the 661 couldn't feed the saw enough fuel with H1R. I had to turn the high open one full turn on the saw I tested H1R in. With a properly adjusted carb I highly doubt the output of the engine would be diminished. Nevertheless that was the first and last saw I ran on H1R, if you have to adjust that much for an oil something isn't right.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Maxima Castor 927 for the win!



That or klotz super techniplate.


----------



## blsnelling

This is all I ever ran in my built Yamaha Banshee. I never once had a piston or lube issue in the 10 years or so I ran it.

http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> This is all I ever ran in my built Yamaha Banshee. I never once had a piston or lube issue in the 10 years or so I ran it.
> 
> http://www.maximausa.com/product/castor-927/



People make too much out of a little buildup in the muffler can, or the piston crown. 927 is a well proven product, it's just not the best in the cold.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> People make too much out of a little buildup in the muffler can, or the piston crown. 927 is a well proven product, it's just not the best in the cold.


Per the instructions on the bottle, I added isopropyl alcohol in cold weather.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Per the instructions on the bottle, I added isopropyl alcohol in cold weather.



Exactly, just not worth it in saws. IMHO R50 is the closest thing to castor, without the associated drawbacks.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Exactly, just not worth it in saws. IMHO R50 is the closest thing to castor, without the associated drawbacks.


And there we are, full circle from several years ago, lol.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> That or klotz super techniplate.


Love the smell of ST ,but it's pretty limited in what it's good for. Chainsaws isn't one of the things I would use it for. same goes for 927.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> And there we are, full circle from several years ago, lol.



I simply gave other oil's a try. I really liked K2, and I'm liking HP2 even better! but may end up running R50 again just because of it's amazing film strength.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> People make too much out of a little buildup in the muffler can, or the piston crown. 927 is a well proven product, it's just not the best in the cold.


That build up long term causes problems that can increase wear. Especially so in a low stress application like a saw.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Love the smell of ST ,but it's pretty limited in what it's good for. Chainsaws isn't one of the things I would use it for. same goes for 927.





bwalker said:


> That build up long term causes problems that can increase wear. Especially so in a low stress application like a saw.



I mostly agree, and castor oils can make you sick if you breath too much in.


----------



## KG441c

Bought HP2 today. Says directly on the bottle for maximum protection and performance mixed at 32:1. Are oils formulated to work better at certain ratios?


----------



## KG441c

Any test today RB?


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> That build up long term causes problems that can increase wear. Especially so in a low stress application like a saw.





KG441c said:


> Bought HP2 today. Says directly on the bottle for maximum protection and performance mixed at 32:1. Are oils formulated to work better at certain ratios?



To an extent yes, but application comes into play as well. With that said 32:1 isn't as much oil as some think, 16:1 in some applications is still common.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

grandpa told me of the olden days when mix was 10:1 he said it was awful.


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> grandpa told me of the olden days when mix was 10:1 he said it was awful.



I bet especially with SAE30 oil.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> To an extent yes, but application comes into play as well. With that said 32:1 isn't as much oil as some think, 16:1 in some applications is still common.


I have seen engines ran on 16:1 that were perfectly clean internally and ran with no smoke once warm. They were also engines that expiereance much more heat and load than a saw, not to mention the fact the make way more hp per cc.


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## KenJax Tree

So HP2 is winning here so far?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I have seen engines ran on 16:1 that were perfectly clean internally and ran with no smoke once warm. They were also engines that expiereance much more heat and load than a saw, not to mention the fact the make way more hp per cc.


I am running 25:1 in my 90cc stumpers ............ no smoke there once warm either


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> So HP2 is winning here so far?


My prediction is the R50 will come out on top .............. but waiting to see the results finalized.

I get sick on R50 if I mix it by itself anymore now .............. its smell isnt a problem if I cut it with 800 off road though


----------



## KenJax Tree

I thought Scamsoil Saber was being tested too....or did i miss it.


----------



## Trx250r180

Even if an oil is faster ,does that factor soot / carbon buildup on the piston and exhaust port for cleanliness ? I am not trying to sell dtp ,but it is the only one i have used that removed the crud left by other oils .


----------



## Trx250r180

KenJax Tree said:


> I thought Scamsoil Saber was being tested too....or did i miss it.


I was hoping to see this also .


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> Even if an oil is faster ,does that factor soot / carbon buildup on the piston and exhaust port for cleanliness ? I am not trying to sell dtp ,but it is the only one i have used that removed the crud left by other oils .


I have seem R50 clean the tops of pistons


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> I have seem R50 clean the tops of pistons


I have never tried that one yet ,I have some 800 off road to try out Redbull sent me also ,i have never ran it either .


----------



## Moparmyway

800 cleaned up some also, but nothing cleaned like R50 did

I only run 32:1 or 25:1 ............ and run mine fat


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Even if an oil is faster ,does that factor soot / carbon buildup on the piston and exhaust port for cleanliness ? I am not trying to sell dtp ,but it is the only one i have used that removed the crud left by other oils .


 Have you tried 800 off-road?


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> My prediction is the R50 will come out on top .............. but waiting to see the results finalized.
> 
> I get sick on R50 if I mix it by itself anymore now .............. its smell isnt a problem if I cut it with 800 off road though


 I've been using 800 off-road at 32:1 in several saws for 1.5 years with great success. Pull the mufflers and everything is very clean. I have no reason to switch.


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## KenJax Tree

800 even at 40:1 was too messing and gooey for me. My top handles that get run for a short time then shut off were a mess.

HP2 and 2R i have no problems with.


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> 800 cleaned up some also, but nothing cleaned like R50 did
> 
> I only run 32:1 or 25:1 ............ and run mine fat





Ron660 said:


> Have you tried 800 off-road?



I have some 800 that redbull sent me in my truck to try 

At 40 to 1 the dtp was still cleaning my engine ,piston top was dry ,so it was not wash from being too rich .


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> I've been using 800 off-road at 32:1 in several saws for 1.5 years with great success. Pull the mufflers and everything is very clean. I have no reason to switch.


I think thats the best thing to do, stick with what works.
I tried lots of different ones myself, and IMHO, the cream rose to the top.
You cant go wrong with any of (what I consider) to be the top 3 oils

1. R50 ; nothing, and I mean nothing compares to its running characteristics and protection. the smell makes me sick
2. K2 ; Awesome running and great coating internally, slightly better running than 800 Off Road though
3. 800 Off road ; Awesome running and great coating internally


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> At 40 to 1 the dtp was still cleaning my engine ,piston top was dry ,so it was not wash from being too rich .



When I need to get more oil, I might be willing to give this DTP a go ............. but I would love to see the internals of one of your saws that have been running it for a while.
Specifically, the areas of the piston by the wrist pin, and under the piston crown ........... as well as the piston crown to see the wash areas.

I am not knocking it in any fashion, I just have reservations about switching from something that I really like into the unknown ............................................ plus isnt it boat oil ?


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> 800 even at 40:1 was too messing and gooey for me. My top handles that get run for a short time then shut off were a mess.


I think this is where application plays a huge roll, plus gasoline quality must be considered as well.

Admittantly, my wittle (thats wee and little combined) weed eater exhaust is a gooey mess with the same 32:1 that my saws exhaust is dry on


----------



## KenJax Tree

Moparmyway said:


> I think this is where application plays a huge roll, plus gasoline quality must be considered as well.
> 
> Admittantly, my wittle (thats wee and little combined) weed eater exhaust is a gooey mess with the same 32:1 that my saws exhaust is dry on


Yeah 800 needs to be run hard


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> I think this is where application plays a huge roll, plus gasoline quality must be considered as well.
> 
> Admittantly, my wittle (thats wee and little combined) weed eater exhaust is a gooey mess with the same 32:1 that my saws exhaust is dry on


My weedeater and post drill ,both run better with dtp ,and mobil1 over the dirt bike oils tested here that i have tried ,running at 40 to 1 and 32 to 1 
If the snap on guy ever gets my camera in ,i will get some piston images ,the one with 180 degree flip on the camera tip has been on back order ,he gave me one with a clip on mirror to try for the 180 flip ,i gave it back ,did not work good


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Even if an oil is faster ,does that factor soot / carbon buildup on the piston and exhaust port for cleanliness ? I am not trying to sell dtp ,but it is the only one i have used that removed the crud left by other oils .





Moparmyway said:


> 800 cleaned up some also, but nothing cleaned like R50 did
> 
> I only run 32:1 or 25:1 ............ and run mine fat


Running fat with any oil while clean a piston off at the expense of making the muffler dirty.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> 800 even at 40:1 was too messing and gooey for me. My top handles that get run for a short time then shut off were a mess.
> 
> HP2 and 2R i have no problems with.


800 is no doubt more dirty than something like K2 or 2r.


----------



## bwalker

When I ran DTP I didn't notice it to be particularly clean, nor dirty.


----------



## blsnelling

I've never witnessed oil remove carbon from a piston crown. However, I also never run my saws any richer than they need to be.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> When I ran DTP I didn't notice it to be particularly clean, nor dirty.


Did you retune for the dtp ? ,my saws were off a bit from the other oils


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Did you retune for the dtp ? ,my saws were off a bit from the other oils


I did.


----------



## redbull660

- Ran saber because I had it with me. (My brother wanted to try it so I mixed some up at 42:1)

- log 4 shrunk a little....missed seeing a hump in it at the start. Log 5 got a little bigger. Log 1 2 and 3 were consistent.


- Times pretty close. Slight edge to Hp2.

- Temps - Hp2 Ran the coolest.

- R50 - on one hand I think I should of used 40:1 because of this... (listen to the saw as you near the last cuts) (this is from pre- testing not the actual final test)



Here is 40:1 r50 ...better. 45:1 was better yet.



@32:1 she seems to struggle when you really do back to back cuts? That is what I thought anyway. So I was torn whether to use R50 32:1 or 40:1. But 32:1 had the fastest cuts in "pre testing" so that is what I went with.


- k2 had some weird time swings
-2r very consistent on the times.


Overall - Forgetting times and temps, I thought the saw ran the best on the Hp2. And given how close everything was. With Hp2 having a Visc of 17.8 ie. level film strength...protection. That is what I'm going with, in this group. Scamoil Saber will have to be tried at 32:1 and will be part of the next group I do.


The Most interesting thing to me was that viscosity didn't seem to play a role at all. Before this I was figuring that a lower viscosity would give the fastest times. Which is why I picked this group. R50 visc 19, hp2 ~18 , k2 13ish , 2r 8ish ultra 8ish.

uploading vids...


----------



## Trx250r180

why 42 to 1 on sabre but 32 to 1 on the other 4 ?


----------



## redbull660

because that is what my brother wanted to try in his 361 today (him and I went out and cut some). So... I was there. It was with me. It wasn't raining quite yet. I had another new chain. So I ran it.


On a different note - The nice thing going forward is that I am just going to start with 32:1 and stop if 40:1 is for sure slower or hotter or doesn't run as well.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Is it worth using?


----------



## Trx250r180

Didn't your older tests make best power at 50 to 1 ? or was that a reset thing ?


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> Is it worth using?


Nothing wrong with Saber. Ive used it a good bit with no issues. Ran a heck of alot of it in a outboard drag motor. Not at 100to1 but 32to1 in the drag motor and 40to1 in lawn equipment


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> Is it worth using?



seems good. actually formulated ...well says good with stihl saws on the bottle or something. I'd like to test it some more and see if the temps and times go down if using 32:1.

Don't know why but Hp2 & R50 seemed to also run very well at 40 and 45:1. Maybe the high viscosity #s? Fastest times were still at 32:1.


- looking over my notes - 2r @ 40:1 & k2 @ 40:1 ran like r50 @ 50:1 and hp2 @ 50:1. 





Trx250r180 said:


> Didn't your older tests make best power at 50 to 1 ? or was that a reset thing ?



that was ultra 50:1 vs 40:1 and h1r. So don't know what to tell ya there. I'll test h1r one more time.


----------



## bwalker

I see no meaningful differance between any of them.


----------



## Trx250r180

Looks like all within fractions of a second ? so pick your favorite color and go with it ?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Blue, purple, orange, or red


----------



## redbull660

Trx250r180 said:


> Looks like all within fractions of a second ? so pick your favorite color and go with it ?





If you want to simplify and make light of hours and hours of work down to nothing and say there is no difference. I don't care.


But IMHO if you take in all the factors. Times, temps, how it ran, that it ran well at other ratios. The high visc #. How the other oils performed at other ratios. yeah. Hp2 is the winner of THIS group. 

And I am not the end all be all here. Go buy some and try it. Run your own tests...report back to the thread.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> If you want to simplify and make light of hours and hours of work down to nothing and say there is no difference. I don't care.
> 
> 
> But IMHO if you take in all the factors. Times, temps, how it ran, that it ran well at other ratios. The high visc #. How the other oils performed at other ratios. yeah. Hp2 is the winner of THIS group.
> 
> And I am not the end all be all here. Go buy some and try it. Run your own tests...report back to the thread.


You might say that.
You might also say on another day the results would be different.
This isn't to make lite of your labours, but all of these oils are so close really there is no meaningful differance and I suspect if you ran the same tests multiple times you would get multiple results. They are that close.


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> If you want to simplify and make light of hours and hours of work down to nothing and say there is no difference. I don't care.
> 
> 
> But IMHO if you take in all the factors. Times, temps, how it ran, that it ran well at other ratios. The high visc #. How the other oils performed at other ratios. yeah. Hp2 is the winner of THIS group.
> 
> And I am not the end all be all here. Go buy some and try it. Run your own tests...report back to the thread.


I can feel differences in how the engine runs with some different brands ,besides the times recorded were you happier with how some brands pulled under load ,clean response etc with one over another ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I can feel differences in how the engine runs with some different brands ,besides the times recorded were you happier with how some brands pulled under load ,clean response etc with one over another ?


I don't buy the this oil feels better than that oil thing. I think it's all in most guys heads.


----------



## porsche965

I like this thread.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> You might say that.
> You might also say on another day the results would be different.
> This isn't to make lite of your labours, but all of these oils are so close really there is no meaningful differance and I suspect if you ran the same tests multiple times you would get multiple results. They are that close.




I've considered all the factors at play and they aren't. Sorry. 

And don't say I am biased either. I never would of thought 32:1 would be fastest. I thought the lower visc oils would of been fastest. 



Trx250r180 said:


> I can feel differences in how the engine runs with some different brands ,besides the times recorded were you happier with how some brands pulled under load ,clean response etc with one over another ?



Ok I guess I wasn't clear enough in earlier posts. So here goes. 

YES. Hp2 CLEARLY RAN THE BEST. 

I think 2r had the least amount of torque when I was cutting firewood. Low visc? I don't know why...nor do I even care.

I think R50 and Hp2 had the *most* torque while just cutting. Cookies are one thing but actually cutting wood...yeah those two had more torque. Sorry they did! It seems crazy to say that, but I literally thought the chain was dull when I was cutting with 2R 40:1. And then it happened again with 32:1 2r. I was like what the hell. 

I think R50 smells like a some nasty perfume or something. I can't stand it. 

I think R50 @32:1 makes the saw run sluggish when you push it via multiple cuts. Yeah it got better at 40:1. But why in the hell would you want to use it, when u can use something that acts better at 32:1? Personally I think it's the high flash....so high the oil doesn't burn off. But who the hell knows for sure? No one here, that's for sure.

I think 2R screams at 40:1. I think K2 screams at 40:1. Saw feels lean. Solvents, less oil in the bottle? I don't know anymore nor do I care! What I do know is that the saw screams at 40:1 with those two and it ran like crap. Sorry bwalker it did. It ran so crappy that I wouldn't even try 45:1 let alone 50:1 in either of them. 

and No I don't favor honda hp2. The only reason I even knew about it was because kenjax PM'd me or I pm'd him asking about it because he posted about itor something...anyway he said it ran really nice and he would send me some, which btw, he didn't. 

Don't believe me? Guess what I DONT CARE! HP2 won here and if you don't like it, and yer all butt hurt about it. Again I DON'T CARE!


----------



## Andyshine77

Again I'm glad you did the test and shared it on the site, and hopefully you had some fun running you saw. 

I do however agree with bwalker, the times are well whiten the with margin of error that exists. Yes feeling a saws is stronger is totally unreliable, I've proved my own opinions wrong many times with a stopwatch. 

As I expected you wouldn't see any real difference in power between the oils. Testing the real quality of each oil would require a test cell, dissembling a new saw, measuring the inertial components, adding internal temp sensors, running 50 gallons of fuel through the saw in the test cell, than retaking all measurements.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> I've considered all the factors at play and they aren't. Sorry.
> 
> And don't say I am biased either. I never would of thought 32:1 would be fastest. I thought the lower visc oils would of been fastest.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I guess I wasn't clear enough in earlier posts. So here goes.
> 
> YES. Hp2 CLEARLY RAN THE BEST.
> 
> I think 2r had the least amount of torque when I was cutting firewood. Low visc? I don't know why...nor do I even care.
> 
> I think R50 and Hp2 had the *most* torque while just cutting. Cookies are one thing but actually cutting wood...yeah those two had more torque. Sorry they did! It seems crazy to say that, but I literally thought the chain was dull when I was cutting with 2R 40:1. And then it happened again with 32:1 2r. I was like what the hell.
> 
> I think R50 smells like a some nasty perfume or something. I can't stand it.
> 
> I think R50 @32:1 makes the saw run sluggish when you push it via multiple cuts. Yeah it got better at 40:1. But why in the hell would you want to use it, when u can use something that acts better at 32:1? Personally I think it's the high flash....so high the oil doesn't burn off. But who the hell knows for sure? No one here, that's for sure.
> 
> I think 2R screams at 40:1. I think K2 screams at 40:1. Saw feels lean. Solvents, less oil in the bottle? I don't know anymore nor do I care! What I do know is that the saw screams at 40:1 with those two and it ran like crap. Sorry bwalker it did. It ran so crappy that I wouldn't even try 45:1 let alone 50:1 in either of them.
> 
> and No I don't favor honda hp2. The only reason I even knew about it was because kenjax PM'd me or I pm'd him asking about it because he posted about itor something...anyway he said it ran really nice and he would send me some, which btw, he didn't.
> 
> Don't believe me? Guess what I DONT CARE! HP2 won here and if you don't like it, and yer all butt hurt about it. Again I DON'T CARE!


Man I appreciate the work u have put in ! Heck I bought HP2 to try yesterday even. Man this stuff is gettin to u and u should go to your happy place whatever that may be and rest your nerves alil. Appreciate all the work though man


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> I've considered all the factors at play and they aren't. Sorry.
> 
> And don't say I am biased either. I never would of thought 32:1 would be fastest. I thought the lower visc oils would of been fastest.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I guess I wasn't clear enough in earlier posts. So here goes.
> 
> YES. Hp2 CLEARLY RAN THE BEST.
> 
> I think 2r had the least amount of torque when I was cutting firewood. Low visc? I don't know why...nor do I even care.



People including engines builders some with decades of experience told you what was what, you didn't listen, and you still don't know what you're talking about. I'm not trying to attack you and I never was, but you resisted the information you were given, and did so arrogantly. There was no clear winner, in any way shape or form.


----------



## porsche965

Is 2R the new "driveway oil?"


----------



## porsche965

Didn't the engine builders promote H1R as the best at 32:1 at one time? And a lot of people subscribed to it?


----------



## KenJax Tree

Sorry....like i told you the dealer was out of stock when I was there and still didn't have it a week later. I haven't been on that side of town and haven't even had any for myself let alone to send you. I've been using Amoil Saber thats why I asked about it.

If you want the money for the HP2 i will Paypal it to you. I said i would send it and i apologize.


----------



## porsche965

What's great about the forum and the internet is that what people have said stays. Even from other threads their opinions are "out there." Hard to back up....on what was said in the past.


----------



## RedFir Down

porsche965 said:


> Is 2R the new "driveway oil?"


No, R50 is. I almost missed it as well.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Didn't the engine builders promote H1R as the best at 32:1 at one time? And a lot of people subscribed to it?


You guys would still be hyping that crap if I didn't point out its short comings..


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> Is 2R the new "driveway oil?"


That's Scamsoil only territory,lol.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> You guys would still be hyping that crap if I didn't point out its short comings..



You were not the only one.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Again I'm glad you did the test and shared it on the site, and hopefully you had some fun running you saw.
> 
> I do however agree with bwalker, the times are well whiten the with margin of error that exists. Yes feeling a saws is stronger is totally unreliable, I've proved my own opinions wrong many times with a stopwatch.
> 
> As I expected you wouldn't see any real difference in power between the oils. Testing the real quality of each oil would require a test cell, dissembling a new saw, measuring the inertial components, adding internal temp sensors, running 50 gallons of fuel through the saw in the test cell, than retaking all measurements.


Yep.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> Again I'm glad you did the test and shared it on the site, and hopefully you had some fun running you saw.
> 
> I do however agree with bwalker, the times are well whiten the with margin of error that exists. Yes feeling a saws is stronger is totally unreliable, I've proved my own opinions wrong many times with a stopwatch.
> 
> As I expected you wouldn't see any real difference in power between the oils. Testing the real quality of each oil would require a test cell, dissembling a new saw, measuring the inertial components, adding internal temp sensors, running 50 gallons of fuel through the saw in the test cell, than retaking all measurements.




margin of error - So when hp2 wins here it's margin of error. But in pre testing when 32:1 ratio proved fastest and hp2 was fastest there...that was as expected? I see. 

Well for the next test you can drive here and help me and then you'll see. You can do some cuts and I"ll do some cuts and we'll compare notes. 

feeling - yeah see here is how it played out

k2 40:1 FELT the same as R50 @ 50:1 & HP2 @ 50:1 - both had the same scream the same lack torque. Sounded "great" as in whoa that's bad azz dude. But they were lacking in real cutting.
2r 40:1 FELT the same as R50 @50:1 & HP2 @ 50:1 - " see above"


Well I guess the temps meant nothing as well. Buddy, you just don't like the results. That's all. You can't even see the other factors like film strength. 

R50 is ruled out because it is sluggish at 32:1 when you do multi cuts in a row. go watch the video again.

So since EVERYTHING IS THE SAME. Just by default from there hp2 wins with the high visc ie. protection. 

Bottom line - ya just don't like the results. Same with Ben. The only way ben would be happy is if 2R won. Honestly I was hoping it would because it would of proved my theory on lower visc being fastest, true. And it's cheap. But it didn't so tough luck.


Here is my advice for joe blow reading through this - 

R50 - don't use it. 

Hp2 - 32:1 in summer spring fall , 40:1 winter.

k2 - 32:1 winter fall 28:1 in summer

yamalube 2r - 32:1 in winter. 20-25:1 in the summer.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I've considered all the factors at play and they aren't. Sorry.
> 
> And don't say I am biased either. I never would of thought 32:1 would be fastest. I thought the lower visc oils would of been fastest.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I guess I wasn't clear enough in earlier posts. So here goes.
> 
> YES. Hp2 CLEARLY RAN THE BEST.
> 
> I think 2r had the least amount of torque when I was cutting firewood. Low visc? I don't know why...nor do I even care.
> 
> I think R50 and Hp2 had the *most* torque while just cutting. Cookies are one thing but actually cutting wood...yeah those two had more torque. Sorry they did! It seems crazy to say that, but I literally thought the chain was dull when I was cutting with 2R 40:1. And then it happened again with 32:1 2r. I was like what the hell.
> 
> I think R50 smells like a some nasty perfume or something. I can't stand it.
> 
> I think R50 @32:1 makes the saw run sluggish when you push it via multiple cuts. Yeah it got better at 40:1. But why in the hell would you want to use it, when u can use something that acts better at 32:1? Personally I think it's the high flash....so high the oil doesn't burn off. But who the hell knows for sure? No one here, that's for sure.
> 
> I think 2R screams at 40:1. I think K2 screams at 40:1. Saw feels lean. Solvents, less oil in the bottle? I don't know anymore nor do I care! What I do know is that the saw screams at 40:1 with those two and it ran like crap. Sorry bwalker it did. It ran so crappy that I wouldn't even try 45:1 let alone 50:1 in either of them.
> 
> and No I don't favor honda hp2. The only reason I even knew about it was because kenjax PM'd me or I pm'd him asking about it because he posted about itor something...anyway he said it ran really nice and he would send me some, which btw, he didn't.
> 
> Don't believe me? Guess what I DONT CARE! HP2 won here and if you don't like it, and yer all butt hurt about it. Again I DON'T CARE!


Your guessing on torque and HP based on feel, which is very unreliable.
I don't think anyone is butt hurt..


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> That's Scamsoil only territory,lol.



Care to run head to head benny?


----------



## KG441c

Id run any of the oils tested here. I still like R50 as internally has been one of the best Ive ran. I will say I recently tore my hybrid and 241c down to change porting and both had a grayish sticky film on top of both pistons that was drying using K2 at 32to1


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> margin of error - So when hp2 wins here it's margin of error. But in pre testing when 32:1 ratio proved fastest and hp2 was fastest there...that was as expected? I see.
> 
> Well for the next test you can drive here and help me and then you'll see. You can do some cuts and I"ll do some cuts and we'll compare notes.
> 
> feeling - yeah see here is how it played out
> 
> k2 40:1 FELT the same as R50 @ 50:1 & HP2 @ 50:1 - both had the same scream the same lack torque. Sounded "great" as in whoa that's bad azz dude. But they were lacking in real cutting.
> 2r 40:1 FELT the same as R50 @50:1 & HP2 @ 50:1 - " see above"
> 
> 
> Well I guess the temps meant nothing as well. Buddy, you just don't like the results. That's all. You can't even see the other factors like film strength.
> 
> R50 is ruled out because it is sluggish at 32:1 when you do multi cuts in a row. go watch the video again.
> 
> So since EVERYTHING IS THE SAME. Just by default from there hp2 wins with the high visc ie. protection.
> 
> Bottom line - ya just don't like the results. Same with Ben. The only way ben would be happy is if 2R won. Honestly I was hoping it would because it would of proved my theory on lower visc being fastest, true. And it's cheap. But it didn't so tough luck.
> 
> 
> Here is my advice for joe blow reading through this -
> 
> R50 - don't use it.
> 
> Hp2 - 32:1 in summer spring fall , 40:1 winter.
> 
> k2 - 32:1 winter fall 28:1 in summer
> 
> yamalube 2r - 32:1 in winter. 20-25:1 in the summer.




I like the results just fine, I don't run R2, and I could tell no difference in your video. .2 of a second isn't a definitive result, neither is 1 full second. Only a properly working dyno would be able to definitively point out the minute power difference. You're being arrogant again and making new wild assumptions.

Again we appreciate the time and effort you put into this, but you need to step back and cool your jets a little.


----------



## porsche965

That's a new one. "sticky." Is that good for a saw?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> margin of error - So when hp2 wins here it's margin of error. But in pre testing when 32:1 ratio proved fastest and hp2 was fastest there...that was as expected? I see.
> 
> Well for the next test you can drive here and help me and then you'll see. You can do some cuts and I"ll do some cuts and we'll compare notes.
> 
> feeling - yeah see here is how it played out
> 
> k2 40:1 FELT the same as R50 @ 50:1 & HP2 @ 50:1 - both had the same scream the same lack torque. Sounded "great" as in whoa that's bad azz dude. But they were lacking in real cutting.
> 2r 40:1 FELT the same as R50 @50:1 & HP2 @ 50:1 - " see above"
> 
> 
> Well I guess the temps meant nothing as well. Buddy, you just don't like the results. That's all. You can't even see the other factors like film strength.
> 
> R50 is ruled out because it is sluggish at 32:1 when you do multi cuts in a row. go watch the video again.
> 
> So since EVERYTHING IS THE SAME. Just by default from there hp2 wins with the high visc ie. protection.
> 
> Bottom line - ya just don't like the results. Same with Ben. The only way ben would be happy is if 2R won. Honestly I was hoping it would because it would of proved my theory on lower visc being fastest, true. And it's cheap. But it didn't so tough luck.
> 
> 
> Here is my advice for joe blow reading through this -
> 
> R50 - don't use it.
> 
> Hp2 - 32:1 in summer spring fall , 40:1 winter.
> 
> k2 - 32:1 winter fall 28:1 in summer
> 
> yamalube 2r - 32:1 in winter. 20-25:1 in the summer.


Your attributing operating "feel" to a change in oil when you clearly don't know or can prove the oil is what's causing your observation. You don't even have a way to quantify your observation. The temp readings are nearly meaningless as well given the instrumentation you have and it's lack of repeatable accuracy.
I don't care what oil won in your mind as I wasn't going to change what I am doing based on your tests. If anything your test, if valid, validated some of the things I have said about r50.
Your also grasping that hp2 has a higher protection factor given its viscosity. It's not that simple.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> That's a new one. "sticky." Is that good for a saw?


I dont know Porshe but it was drying hard and on both of my pistons. I was using K2 with Sunoco 110/87efree 50/50


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I dont know Porshe but it was drying hard and on both of my pistons. I was using K2 with Sunoco 110/87efree 50/50


Lead...
That Sunoco 110 is about the worst fuel you could use in a two stroke unless they have changed it in the last few years.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Lead...


From the Sunoco?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> From the Sunoco?



Yes lead can do that.


----------



## RedFir Down

Can anyone just tell me what oil lubricates the best?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Id run any of the oils tested here. I still like R50 as internally has been one of the best Ive ran. I will say I recently tore my hybrid and 241c down to change porting and both had a grayish sticky film on top of both pistons that was drying using K2 at 32to1



R50 is a phenomenal product don't mind RB's feelings. lol


----------



## redbull660

well maybe you guys could go buy some hp2 and run it and report your findings to the thread. Gee what a novel idea! I said I wasn't the end all. I'm just trying to learn and you guys aren't doing a dam thing except exercising your fingers. 


So since this is all worthless and you all aren't going to help and just pick based on your favorite color of the day. I'm done, out. And I'm not posting any more results.


----------



## redbull660

RedFir Down said:


> Can anyone just tell me what oil lubricates the best?



KY


----------



## Andyshine77

RedFir Down said:


> Can anyone just tell me what oil lubricates the best?



That would require the perimeters I stated earlier. But from my experience any of the better ester oils will work well.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well maybe you guys could go buy some hp2 and run it and report your findings to the thread. Gee what a novel idea! I said I wasn't the end all. I'm just trying to learn and you guys aren't doing a dam thing except exercising your fingers.
> 
> 
> So since this is all worthless and you all aren't going to help and just pick based on your favorite color of the day. I'm done, out. And I'm not posting any more results.


Hp2 isn't bad oil, nor are any of the oils in this test are suspect quality wise. No one has said any different.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> well maybe you guys could go buy some hp2 and run it and report your findings to the thread. Gee what a novel idea! I said I wasn't the end all. I'm just trying to learn and you guys aren't doing a dam thing except exercising your fingers.
> 
> 
> So since this is all worthless and you all aren't going to help and just pick based on your favorite color of the day. I'm done, out. And I'm not posting any more results.



Again you're resisting not listening, don't take things so seriously, go have a beer or something.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> That would require the perimeters I stated earlier. But from my experience any of the better ester oils will work well.


Personaly I like a blend with some PIB.


----------



## RedFir Down

redbull660 said:


> KY


You better "test" it first...


----------



## Andyshine77

When I could drink, a strong IPA was awesome after a hard day.


----------



## redbull660

RedFir Down said:


> You better "test" it first...



nah, think i'll pass, you and the other fan boys here can work on that.


----------



## RedFir Down

redbull660 said:


> nah, think i'll pass, you and the other fan boys here can work on that.


How am I a fan boy?

Sounds like you need to test the KY because your the only one butt hurt.[emoji30]


----------



## big t double

redbull660 said:


> just pick based on your favorite color of the day.


Pink....Pink is my favorite color today and everyday. Puce is a close second...Can you recommend an oil that fits my stringent requirements?


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes lead can do that.


What will the buildup of lead do in a 2t engine? This looked to be building quickly


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> What will the buildup of lead do in a 2t engine? This looked to be building quickly


Not much., you will notice it in the exhaust port sometimes and the muffler too.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Not much., you will notice it in the exhaust port sometimes and the muffler too.


Why not use the Sunoco 110 in a 2t engine then?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> What will the buildup of lead do in a 2t engine? This looked to be building quickly



Chainsaws don't have the compression necessary to burn 110 octane correctly, you will see more buildup and make less power. The only reason to run 110 in a work saw would be to avoid ethanol, honestly I rather run ethanol blended fuel before leaded fuel in ***. 110 is simply the wrong fuel for ***.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> Chainsaws don't have the compression necessary to burn 110 octane correctly, you will see more buildup and make less power. The only reason to run 110 in a work saw would be to avoid ethanol, honestly I rather run ethanol blended fuel before leaded fuel in ***. 110 is simply the wrong fuel in ***.


How much compression would call for 110?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> How much compression would call for 110?



You would have to determine the trapped compression ratio. What psi number? I don't know exactly, but I do know it will be over 250psi.


----------



## KG441c

Andyshine77 said:


> You would have to determine the trapped compression ratio. What psi number? I don't know exactly, but I do know it will be over 250psi.


Do u think 87 efree will be fine in a ported 390xp with 200psi?


----------



## Andyshine77

I know quite a few that run 89 in ported saws and it does great, but 87 is pretty low. It will more than likely work fine.


----------



## mdavlee

87 works for 240 lbs.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Why not use the Sunoco 110 in a 2t engine then?


The distillation curve is completely wrong for a two stroke. Given this is it will burn dirty, make less power and contribute to deposits. 
If your hung up on running a leaded fuel VP C12 is a good choice or the MR series from VP made for two strokes.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> The distillation curve is completely wrong for a two stroke. Given this is it will burn dirty, make less power and contribute to deposits.
> If your hung up on running a leaded fuel VP C12 is a good choice or the MR series from VP made for two strokes.


I thought SEF (it is unleaded) was the better offering from VP for chainsaws ?


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I thought SEF (it is unleaded) was the better offering from VP for chainsaws ?


I didn't speak to unleaded fuels, and honestly I don't know anything about SEF.
The thing you have to look for in regards to a race fuels suitability for a two stroke is the 10-50% boiling points should be on the low side, as should the end point. Otherwise you have a bunch of liquid fuel making it to the combustion chamber that at beast leaches away heat and as a result power and at worst you pass liquid fuel right out the exhaust because it won't combust. Most of the fuels sold at gas stations are designed for long intake runner four cycle engines that give the incoming charge plenty of time to change phase. A two stroke doesn't have this luxury.


----------



## bwalker

If I were racing saws one not the MR series is what I would run. It's both leaded and oxygenated with MTBE, so it makes more HP.


----------



## KenJax Tree

I've used VP T4. 93 octane, unleaded, oxygenated with MTBE.


----------



## bwalker

KenJax Tree said:


> I've used VP T4. 93 octane, unleaded, oxygenated with MTBE.


T4 is well suited to a two stroke.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> 87 works for 240 lbs.


I figured it will Mike. I think thats all Randy uses


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I didn't speak to unleaded fuels, and honestly I don't know anything about SEF.
> The thing you have to look for in regards to a race fuels suitability for a two stroke is the 10-50% boiling points should be on the low side, as should the end point. Otherwise you have a bunch of liquid fuel making it to the combustion chamber that at beast leaches away heat and as a result power and at worst you pass liquid fuel right out the exhaust because it won't combust. Most of the fuels sold at gas stations are designed for long intake runner four cycle engines that give the incoming charge plenty of time to change phase. A two stroke doesn't have this luxury.


Now I agree with that. I think the high octane is not burning completely and probably the anwser as to why some folks engines stay cleaner?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I figured it will Mike. I think thats all Randy uses


Really you need to talk about compression ratio when talking about octane requirements.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Now I agree with that. I think the high octane is not burning completely and probably the anwser as to why some folks engines stay cleaner?


Its nothing to do with the octane. Octane doesn't effect how a fuel combusts, it's simply a measure of resistance to detonation. The fuel you are using isn't optimal for a two stroke based on its distallation curve alone. VP C12 IIRC is 108 octane and it's very suitable for use in a two stroke.
The key is, to burn fuel it has to change phase from a liquid droplet form to a vapor. The distallation curve is a measure of what temps this happens at.


----------



## KG441c

Ran my ported 241c, hybrid 440, and a MM661c this morning on 87 efree and HP2 @ 32to1 with no issues. All saws run very good


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Its nothing to do with the octane. Octane doesn't effect how a fuel combusts, it's simply a measure of resistance to detonation. The fuel you are using isn't optimal for a two stroke based on its distallation curve alone. VP C12 IIRC is 108 octane and it's very suitable for use in a two stroke.
> The key is, to burn fuel it has to change phase from a liquid droplet form to a vapor. The distallation curve is a measure of what temps this happens at.


So these saws arent enough temp and load to vaporize the sunoco 110 with the distillation curve it has? The vp c12 vaporizes more readily?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> So these saws arent enough temp and load to vaporize the sunoco 110 with the distillation curve it has? The vp c12 vaporizes more readily?


They don't have enough intake runner/port length or temperature for the fuel to evaporate before it reaches the combustion chamber. Liquid fuel will not combust. If you have alot of liquid fuel making it to the combustion chamber you leach heat and hp out of the engine. In an ideal world premix should nearly all phase change once it reaches the crank case and in the process coating all the internal parts with oil. The resulting vapor them makes it to the combustion chamber where it can be burnt.
And yes, c12's curve is biased lower.


----------



## bwalker

Just about any race fuel you buy at the pump, including AV gas is way less than optimal in a two stroke.


----------



## Ron660

Chad's dyno octane results from my saw.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 462762
> 
> Chad's dyno octane results from my saw.


Clearly whatever the 110 was caused a HP across the range. However, it's not the octane number that caused it, but rather the distallation curve being wrong for the engine.


----------



## Ron660

That 110 (purple color) with 800 off-road smells real good.


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 462762
> 
> Chad's dyno octane results from my saw.


For all intents and purposes, you might as well call those HP curves identical.


----------



## redbull660

here is the vids of the test. I put the cuts back to back so it would be easier to compare. Keep an eye on the wood for changes. Listen to the tone of the exhaust. 



 



 



 



 



 

 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKOhTBzwsNk jug temps


here are the saber 42:1 (not 32:1) cuts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziyQ8TymImQ log 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1NILPcEgEk log 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgyuvHfISfU log 3 & 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJk4gTdbTnw log 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPcLspVUq8 temp


Just based on running them all at different ratios again I think HP2 ran the best, followed by r50, then by k2 or 2r. R50 seems to get sluggish after multiple cuts. Seen here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcT26bDl_PI


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 462762
> 
> Chad's dyno octane results from my saw.



Which saw ?


----------



## Ron660

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Which saw ?


 660


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> here is the vids of the test. I put the cuts back to back so it would be easier to compare. Keep an eye on the wood for changes. Listen to the tone of the exhaust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKOhTBzwsNk jug temps
> 
> 
> here are the saber 42:1 (not 32:1) cuts...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziyQ8TymImQ log 1
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1NILPcEgEk log 2
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgyuvHfISfU log 3 & 4
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJk4gTdbTnw log 5
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPcLspVUq8 temp
> 
> 
> Just based on running them all at different ratios again I think HP2 ran the best, followed by r50, then by k2 or 2r. R50 seems to get sluggish after multiple cuts. Seen here.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcT26bDl_PI




Fastest to slowest using ALL timed cuts:
1) HP2
2) R2
3) K2
4) R50
5) Saber

There was a 7.1% difference in total cut times between 1st place (HP2) and last place (Saber).


----------



## Ron660

redbull660 said:


> here is the vids of the test. I put the cuts back to back so it would be easier to compare. Keep an eye on the wood for changes. Listen to the tone of the exhaust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKOhTBzwsNk jug temps
> 
> 
> here are the saber 42:1 (not 32:1) cuts...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziyQ8TymImQ log 1
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1NILPcEgEk log 2
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgyuvHfISfU log 3 & 4
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJk4gTdbTnw log 5
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brPcLspVUq8 temp
> 
> 
> Just based on running them all at different ratios again I think HP2 ran the best, followed by r50, then by k2 or 2r. R50 seems to get sluggish after multiple cuts. Seen here.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcT26bDl_PI



So next is HP2 vs 800 off-road? If you need any 800 I'll send you a liter.


----------



## Andyshine77

Don't forget octane also plays a role in the amount of energy in a given amount of fuel, so octane does effect combustion temperature as well. 

RB thanks again for all the hard work. However your theory about the most oils effecting cut times isn't adding up. I'm not pointing this out to be argumentative, just pointing out that the margin of error is much larger than most would believe. And you're own times don't reflect you sluggish theory. You must remove gut feeling from any type of testing.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

Ron660 said:


> 660



Gotcha


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Don't forget octane also plays a role in the amount of energy in a given amount of fuel, so octane does effect combustion temperature as well.
> 
> RB thanks again for all the hard work. However your theory about the most oils effecting cut times isn't adding up. I'm not pointing this out to be argumentative, just pointing out that the margin of error is much larger than most would believe. And you're own times don't reflect you sluggish theory. You must remove gut feeling from any type of testing.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


Octane has little to no role in BTU per gallon.


----------



## KG441c

R50 and hp2 sounded deeper toned? More torque?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> R50 and hp2 sounded deeper toned? More torque?


There is no way anyone can reasonably know that.. I suspect the tuning on this particular saw is fairly coarse and is responsible for alot of what is observed.


----------



## blsnelling

redbull660 said:


> Sluggish - did you even watch that video of r50 at 32:1. Saw was struggling after 5 or 6 cuts. Your blind and deaf if you can't see and hear that. Here I'll repost it just for you.


If that's the case, then there's something wrong with the saw that it cannot tune correctly.


----------



## redbull660

blsnelling said:


> If that's the case, then there's something wrong with the saw that it cannot tune correctly.




or maybe the oil isn't burning off fast enough!

mtronic is always tuning for max RPM

So mtronic is getting that deep tone exhaust sound on the r50 and hp2 at max rpm say for example it's 11k in the cut and 13k out. And at max rpm 11k in 13k out, it's getting screamer tone from 2r and k2. Alright fine. So we throw in a carb that u can tune.

r50 & hp2 so get the deep tone at 11k in 13k out.

next we tune out the scream so we richen. ok so

2r k2 now get deep tone at say 10.5k in cut 12.5k out. Still gonna suck and be slower than hp2 & r50. So what have you accomplished other than proving they suck in a different way?!?!

Just like the gutted muffler. Just because you could "tune it out" doesn't mean it's the best performing muffler mod. Mtronic is smarter than you and I. You try the different oils and the different mods and it will tell you what is best. You don't tell it, by tuning it.

Some of you guys are just too closed minded and biased.


----------



## Trx250r180

I have a pretty good ear for tuning from mx ,of the vids i watched the 4th one sounded like it ran the smoothest in that 661 ,was not a huge difference ,but the bark of the exhaust seems to put out the best power in the cut ,i have watched 3 of the tests ,in all 3 it seemed the same the r50 stuff i guess in that particular saw seemed to be power i like to run if had to pick from the 4 ,the yamaha oil seemed a tad lean or something ,was running out of power loaded at the ends of the cuts .that saw seemed to not compensate as much for some reason .the stopwatch times may show different but i would rather sacrifice a second and have smooth power cutting .


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> Man, you always have an excuse.
> 
> So this time, it's the saw didn't tune correctly for your beloved yamalube 2r. I'm really sorry man. Tell ya what, I'll go reprogram it to bwalker 1.0.
> 
> 
> See I know that. Cuz your 2r is a screamer oil even at 32:1. 2R doesn't have any balls dude. Not like R50 and hp2. Nice deep exhaust sound. You see cookies are all fun and games. but when i was noodling the big logs your 2R didn't have the balls that R50 or Hp2 had. Sorry dude. It is what it is. Bottom line - In a big saw 2R don't cut it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all you do is talk. Test something and I'll start believing part of what you say.
> 
> Sluggish - did you even watch that video of r50 at 32:1. Saw was struggling after 5 or 6 cuts. Your blind and deaf if you can't see and hear that. Here I'll repost it just for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have some 800 off rd. but thanks for the offer bro.
> 
> I have 800, mobil 1, dumonde, si7, h1r, schaeffers, amsoil saber yet to test. Should be easier now starting at 32:1.
> 
> But I doubt I'll get to test anything else. Too cold now. Temp dropped from 50s to 20s in a day and it's not looking like it's going up any time soon. IMO the wood just isn't good for testing under 40 F.



I said at the begining I wasnt going to change what I am doing based on your test. As such I could care less how 2R or any of the other oils tested did... I am simply not vested and do not believe your methods are sound.
Your out of your league and seem to have problems grasping the scientific method. Combine that with a severe need for validation from others and it's no supprise your butt hurt anytime someone questions you.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I have a pretty good ear for tuning from mx ,of the vids i watched the 4th one sounded like it ran the smoothest in that 661 ,was not a huge difference ,but the bark of the exhaust seems to put out the best power in the cut ,i have watched 3 of the tests ,in all 3 it seemed the same the r50 stuff i guess in that particular saw seemed to be power i like to run if had to pick from the 4 ,the yamaha oil seemed a tad lean or something ,was running out of power loaded at the ends of the cuts .that saw seemed to not compensate as much for some reason .the stopwatch times may show different but i would rather sacrifice a second and have smooth power cutting .


Right...it's the saw..


----------



## mdavlee

The R50 cuts sound better to me as well. 

I'll try Hp2 when I need to buy more oil. So far the dumonde seems to be great but a bit expensive for general use.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Octane has little to no role in BTU per gallon.


That is not my understanding of the matter. From my research lower octane fuel has more energy per give volume. Nevertheless we are in agreement higher octane fuels have no benefit in a work saw.

RB I have done my own testing over the yeas. Just because I didn't make a video of it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Your grasping at straws and attacking, doing so won't help you.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Right...it's the saw..


It may be what the autotune can compensatr for or it could be the way the oil combusts , without testing a few other saws on the same day same logs etc hard to prove anything ,but in that 661 the r50 seemed to sound better to me.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I said at the begining I wasnt going to change what I am doing based on your test. As such I could care less how 2R or any of the other oils tested did... I am simply not vested and do not believe your methods are sound.
> Your out of your league and seem to have problems grasping the scientific method. Combine that with a severe need for validation from others and it's no supprise your butt hurt anytime someone questions you.



scientific method - yeah dude whatever. I've watched your videos "testing" your 260. And you think my methods are questionable. Get a mirror. We aren't even close in our methods.

validation - nah, I don't care what you think of me. Not in the least. What I worry about Joe Public coming on here spending his time reading all this and listening to you. You have this extreme need to always be right. Your closed minded and completely biased. You have incredible debating skills and thus can easily twist things to your liking. You ignore all valid information and pick the weakest link and attack that to discredit the whole. You are highly manipulative to no end, but to serve your own interests... inner need for being right and respected. Which makes you completely unreliable source of any information.

Bottom line is - I'm trying to share data and have people be open minded and actually learn something and try stuff and provide feedback so we can all get faster saws....ultimately I learn more and get a faster saw win win...because two heads is better than one, 3 or 4...etc. All your doing is using your debating skills to manipulate the thread for your own entertainment.

and nah I am not a conspiracy guy. See it's not just me...I get Pm's from guys all the time saying their experience agrees with what I'm showing. But they don't post because, no one seems to have the balls to stand up to you. Or the common one is it's like talking to a brick wall.

BTW - I was actually hoping 2r would come out on top on this test (why I included it over 710 or si-7 or schaeffers (all very low about equal viscosity to 2R) Because it would of made life a lot easier. You'd be right...granted we would have probably never heard the end of it. But at least we would have a fast oil. But it didn't work out that way and here we are.







Andyshine77 said:


> RB I have done my own testing over the yeas. Just because I didn't make a video of it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Your grasping at straws and attacking, doing so won't help you.



and uhh so where is the data? Do something now. Help out. sheesh.

Nah dude I'm dead on.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> scientific method - yeah dude whatever. I've watched your videos "testing" your 260. And you think my methods are questionable. Get a mirror. We aren't even close in our methods.
> 
> validation - nah, I don't care what you think of me. Not in the least. What I worry about Joe Public coming on here spending his time reading all this and listening to you. You have this extreme need to always be right. Your closed minded and completely biased. You have incredible debating skills and thus can easily twist things to your liking. You ignore all valid information and pick the weakest link and attack that to discredit the whole. You are highly manipulative to no end, but to serve your own interests... inner need for being right and respected. Which makes you completely unreliable source of any information.
> 
> Bottom line is - I'm trying to share data and have people be open minded and actually learn something and try stuff and provide feedback so we can all get faster saws....ultimately I learn more and get a faster saw win win...because two heads is better than one, 3 or 4...etc. All your doing is using your debating skills to manipulate the thread for your own entertainment.
> 
> and nah I am not a conspiracy guy. See it's not just me...I get Pm's from guys all the time saying their experience agrees with what I'm showing. But they don't post because, no one seems to have the balls to stand up to you. Or the common one is it's like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> 
> 
> and uhh so where is the data? Do something now. Help out. sheesh.
> 
> Nah dude I'm dead on.


Right on dude. 

So far you information has only confirmed what I've been saying all along more oil, the vast majority of the time, is better. Myself and others were right. Remember not long ago you were betting running 50:1 in a stock saw would give it enough added power it could cut with a ported saw running 32:1. Which was absurd, and showed how little you know. Mentioning what others say about myself in pm's is pretty childish. People who can't take constructive criticism never learn.

Your test proved all the oils work fine, nothing more. Your test isn't scientific data, it is what it is. Be happy with that and move on.

Say hello to John for me in you next pm.[emoji8]


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> That is not my understanding of the matter. From my research lower octane fuel has more energy per give volume. Nevertheless we are in agreement higher octane fuels have no benefit in a work saw.
> 
> RB I have done my own testing over the yeas. Just because I didn't make a video of it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Your grasping at straws and attacking, doing so won't help you.


BTU content is essentially related to density. It's kind of an old wives tale that 87 has a higher btu content than premium.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> BTU content is essentially related to density. It's kind of an old wives tale that 87 has a higher btu content than premium.


Correct higher octane fuels have a multitude of solvents which raises octane but lowers the burn rate, which means less energy. Sorry it's been awhile sense I was on top of this particular subject, so bare with me.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> Right on dude.
> 
> So far you information has only confirmed what I've been saying all along more oil, the vast majority of the time, is better. Myself and others were right. Remember not long ago you were betting running 50:1 in a stock saw would give it enough added power it could cut with a ported saw running 32:1. Which was absurd, and showed how little you know. Mentioning what others say about myself in pm's is pretty childish. People who can't take constructive criticism never learn.
> 
> Your test proved all the oils work fine, nothing more. Your test isn't scientific data, it is what it is. Be happy with that and move on.
> 
> Say hello to John for me in you next pm.[emoji8]




ah come on man. Play fair. At least tell the truth. Don't leave out all the good stuff. Like you and your buddy blsnelling acting like 12 yr olds calling me all sorts of names. retard moron forest gump slow etc etc etc.

and uhh if I recall my stocker running 50:1 h1r was on avg only .4 seconds (in a 25sec cut) behind the ported 661 running 32:1 h1r. I did my homework on h1r. and proved ya all wrong. Did I get any apologies? Nope. Your immature and so is brad. End of story there.

Man, do you even read, watch, or listen before you reply? Both you and brad seem to have this same problem. When you figure it out, you'll understand why I wrote that.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> scientific method - yeah dude whatever. I've watched your videos "testing" your 260. And you think my methods are questionable. Get a mirror. We aren't even close in our methods.
> 
> validation - nah, I don't care what you think of me. Not in the least. What I worry about Joe Public coming on here spending his time reading all this and listening to you. You have this extreme need to always be right. Your closed minded and completely biased. You have incredible debating skills and thus can easily twist things to your liking. You ignore all valid information and pick the weakest link and attack that to discredit the whole. You are highly manipulative to no end, but to serve your own interests... inner need for being right and respected. Which makes you completely unreliable source of any information.
> 
> Bottom line is - I'm trying to share data and have people be open minded and actually learn something and try stuff and provide feedback so we can all get faster saws....ultimately I learn more and get a faster saw win win...because two heads is better than one, 3 or 4...etc. All your doing is using your debating skills to manipulate the thread for your own entertainment.
> 
> and nah I am not a conspiracy guy. See it's not just me...I get Pm's from guys all the time saying their experience agrees with what I'm showing. But they don't post because, no one seems to have the balls to stand up to you. Or the common one is it's like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> BTW - I was actually hoping 2r would come out on top on this test (why I included it over 710 or si-7 or schaeffers (all very low about equal viscosity to 2R) Because it would of made life a lot easier. You'd be right...granted we would have probably never heard the end of it. But at least we would have a fast oil. But it didn't work out that way and here we are.
> 
> 
> 
> and uhh so where is the data? Do something now. Help out. sheesh.
> 
> Nah dude I'm dead on.


I'm farting around in the yard with my 260, not making broad, unsubstantiated conclusions based on poorly thought out testing with a very minimal understanding of what it is your looking at.
Then you have all the conclusions, mostly false, that you arrive at..
The fact you have bootlickers pm'ing you in private is also telling. At least they are smart enough to not reveal their lack of knowledge.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Correct, higher octane fuels have a multitude of solvents which raises octane but lowers the burn rate, which means less energy. Sorry it's been awhile sense I was on top of this particular subject, so bare with me.


Its just not the case, although millions of people seem to think so on the internet.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> man you forgot to use your favorite word ... we're all "culls" right?


I think crazy and extreme need for validation are better labels.. the culls are those that can't see that your tests although fun and interesting are not scientific, nor valid.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Its just not the case, although millions of people seem to think so on the internet.


What about all the solvents or alcohol? Which we know has less energy, but raises octane.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> scientific method - yeah dude whatever. I've watched your videos "testing" your 260. And you think my methods are questionable. Get a mirror. We aren't even close in our methods.
> 
> validation - nah, I don't care what you think of me. Not in the least. What I worry about Joe Public coming on here spending his time reading all this and listening to you. You have this extreme need to always be right. Your closed minded and completely biased. You have incredible debating skills and thus can easily twist things to your liking. You ignore all valid information and pick the weakest link and attack that to discredit the whole. You are highly manipulative to no end, but to serve your own interests... inner need for being right and respected. Which makes you completely unreliable source of any information.
> 
> Bottom line is - I'm trying to share data and have people be open minded and actually learn something and try stuff and provide feedback so we can all get faster saws....ultimately I learn more and get a faster saw win win...because two heads is better than one, 3 or 4...etc. All your doing is using your debating skills to manipulate the thread for your own entertainment.
> 
> and nah I am not a conspiracy guy. See it's not just me...I get Pm's from guys all the time saying their experience agrees with what I'm showing. But they don't post because, no one seems to have the balls to stand up to you. Or the common one is it's like talking to a brick wall.
> 
> BTW - I was actually hoping 2r would come out on top on this test (why I included it over 710 or si-7 or schaeffers (all very low about equal viscosity to 2R) Because it would of made life a lot easier. You'd be right...granted we would have probably never heard the end of it. But at least we would have a fast oil. But it didn't work out that way and here we are.
> 
> 
> 
> and uhh so where is the data? Do something now. Help out. sheesh.
> 
> Nah dude I'm dead on.


One other thing, being right is a good thing, you might try it. And you have no data. What you have is an expensive waste of time that didn't prove anything.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> What about all the solvents or alcohol? Which we know has less energy, but raises octane.


Gasoline is all solvent of one kind or another. And my comments assume apples to apples when it pertains to ethanol content. An ethanol doped fuel will have less btu than an ethanol free fuel, which is one of the reasons ethanol is a scam.


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> I'm farting around in the yard with my 260, not making broad, unsubstantiated conclusions based poorly thought out testing with a very minimal understanding of what it is your looking at.
> Then you have all the conclusions, mostly false, that you arrive at..
> The fact you have bootlickers pm'ing you in private is also telling. At least they are smart enough to not reveal their lack of knowledge.



man you forgot to use your favorite word ... we're all "culls" right?

poorly thought out. yeah like how you opened up that muffler on the 260. 



bwalker said:


> One other thing, being right is a good thing, you might try it. And you have no data. What you have is an expensive waste of time that didn't prove anything.



I proved quite a bit. Your just butt hurt about it. Had 2r won, my test would of totally been valid. JUST like the one that showed 32:1 was best out of the ratios. See, you said that was valid. BUT this one that didn't fit what you wanted, is not.


----------



## big t double

Can any one tell me what is a good oil to fry a turkey in?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> It may be what the autotune can compensatr for or it could be the way the oil combusts , without testing a few other saws on the same day same logs etc hard to prove anything ,but in that 661 the r50 seemed to sound better to me.





redbull660 said:


> man you forgot to use your favorite word ... we're all "culls" right?
> 
> poorly thought out. yeah like how you opened up that muffler on the 260.
> 
> 
> 
> I proved quite a bit. Your just butt hurt about it. Had 2r won, my test would of totally been valid. JUST like the one that showed 32:1 was best out of the ratios. See you said that was valid. But this one that didn't fit what you wanted is not.
> 
> 
> 
> well dudes you have fun speculating about what is what. I'll be back in 5 months to actually DO something again. Don't wear out your keyboards! Happy holidays


I got pretty decent gains with that muffler mod. I based my mod on the work of TW, who tested the same saw. And tested in a scientific manner, unlike your pseudo tests.
And again, I could care less about the results of your test, or if 2R won.. I haven't ran the stuff in months.
I didn't say your conclusions on ratio were valid at all. What I said is that your results jives with previous testing which was done right and it's what I expected. It also shot holes in your insane theory of minute changes in oil ratio causing large gains in power, but I digress.
If anyone is clouded by bias it woukd be you and your insane insistence on using that crap h1r. At least you have seen the light there. How long will it take you to do the same with that crappy boat oil your running in that 880?


----------



## RedFir Down

big t double said:


> Can any one tell me what is a good oil to fry a turkey in?


That is a good question.
I would recommend you check with Redbull to find out.


----------



## KenJax Tree

big t double said:


> Can any one tell me what is a good oil to fry a turkey in?


If i read this right, HP2 should cook the fastest at 32:1.


----------



## bwalker

I am thinking a 550 should out cut a 661 if I use RB'S preferred oil, bar and muffler mod! LMFAO!
Wonder if he has a prefered turkey fryer? 
How about a shaving cream test next?


----------



## bwalker

RedFir Down said:


> That is a good question.
> I would recommend you check with Redbull to find out.


His wife's going to be pissed when he mortgages the house to test fry oils...


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> If i read this right, HP2 should cook the fastest at 32:1.


Only if mixed with 110 octane


----------



## Big_Wood

i ran 500 tanks of stihl regular 50:1 87 through my 576. that's likely more then most here will run in 20 years lol. that 576 still runs great. piston and cylinder are mint. of course, if you guys run a tank of 50:1 your saws will score so best stay with your saws tuned way to fat running 32:1 lol


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Only if mixed with 110 octane


You go ahead and mix fuel in the fryer and let us know how that works out, if we don't hear back from you we'll know.


----------



## big t double

KG441c said:


> Only if mixed with 110 octane


I dynoed my fryer on a few different octanes...you'd be surprised how similar the cook rate curves were between the different octanes.


----------



## RedFir Down

bwalker said:


> I am thinking a 550 should out cut a 661 if I use RB'S preferred oil, bar and muffler mod! LMFAO!
> Wonder if he has a prefered turkey fryer?
> How about a shaving cream test next?


The wife just asked what I was laughing at. Good times.


----------



## KenJax Tree

big t double said:


> I dynoed my fryer on a few different octanes...you'd be surprised how similar the cook rate curves were between the different octanes.



I'm betting they all shot flames pretty much the same?


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I am thinking a 550 should out cut a 661 if I use RB'S preferred oil, bar and muffler mod! LMFAO!
> Wonder if he has a prefered turkey fryer?
> How about a shaving cream test next?





KenJax Tree said:


> You go ahead and mix fuel in the fryer and let us know how that works out, if we don't hear back from you we'll know.


Ok. Bad idea ill stick with 87 e free at 350°f


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> i ran 500 tanks of stihl regular 50:1 87 through my 576. that's likely more then most here will run in 20 years lol. that 576 still runs great. piston and cylinder are mint. of course, if you guys run a tank of 50:1 your saws will score so best stay with your saws tuned way to fat running 32:1 lol


Likely you would have cut way more wood if you only used hp2...


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> Likely you would have cut way more wood if you only used hp2...



tell the boss that cause he decides the fuel and oil lol. he will laugh at you. i thought for sure you left AS for some reason but then i decided to check out this thread and realized this is pretty much the only thread you post in. you have a fascination with oil and it's ****ed up lol


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> tell the boss that cause he decides the fuel and oil lol. he will laugh at you. i thought for sure you left AS for some reason but then i decided to check out this thread and realized this is pretty much the only thread you post in. you have a fascination with oil and it's ****ed up lol


When I was going through drums of 2 cycle oil per year 50:1 and cheap oil ruled the day.


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> tell the boss that cause he decides the fuel and oil lol. he will laugh at you. i thought for sure you left AS for some reason but then i decided to check out this thread and realized this is pretty much the only thread you post in. you have a fascination with oil and it's ****ed up lol


And if I were your boss I wouldn't be running stihl oil. Much better, and cheaper oils out there.


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> tell the boss that cause he decides the fuel and oil lol. he will laugh at you. i thought for sure you left AS for some reason but then i decided to check out this thread and realized this is pretty much the only thread you post in. you have a fascination with oil and it's ****ed up lol


Throw in the right bar and your production will be through the roof!


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> When I was going through drums of 2 cycle oil per year 50:1 and cheap oil ruled the day.



that's the spirit. you've been there and done that even if you fascinated in oil. i think most culls here honestly think they will blow up their saw running 50:1.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ok. Bad idea ill stick with 87 e free at 350°f


Have some one take a vid....from a distance..


----------



## Big_Wood

bwalker said:


> And if I were your boss I wouldn't be running stihl oil. Much better, and cheaper oils out there.



boss gets stihl oil for sweet **** all. he used to run tech 2000 but switch because the stihl oil isn't much more and he loves stihl.


----------



## bwalker

westcoaster90 said:


> boss gets stihl oil for sweet **** all. he used to run tech 2000 but switch because the stihl oil isn't much more and he loves stihl.


I got the same deals on yamalube outboard oil when I ran yamaha outboards commercialy. Perks when you buy 35+ motors every few years.


----------



## KG441c

Im not a 50to1 cheerleader! Sorry fellows. I even run 40to1 in all my lawn equipment . I ran H1r in my SRM 225 and in close quarters it almost took me out a few times!!


----------



## KenJax Tree

Flushing cutting stumps with R50 will damn near kill you[emoji15]


----------



## KG441c

westcoaster90 said:


> that's the spirit. you've been there and done that even if you fascinated in oil. i think most culls here honestly think they will blow up their saw running 50:1.


To save money for u guys thats a good idea but for occasional users that little extra $$ on oils and added ratio gives me peace of mind if nothin else


----------



## Jimbo209

What about using a screw carb saw and setting it at factory start point(1&1.5 turns??) and as which oil provides the closest tune


----------



## Deleted member 83629

run straight gas and see how fast it cuts.


----------



## Big_Wood

KG441c said:


> To save money for u guys thats a good idea but for occasional users that little extra $$ on oils and added ratio gives me peace of mind if nothin else



my point isn't that we save money. my point is there is this fear on AS that running anything other then 32:1 will blow up your equipment. if i ran 500 tanks through a 576 in 2 months then i think your saw will last you a lifetime at 50:1 lol.


----------



## KG441c

westcoaster90 said:


> my point isn't that we save money. my point is there is this fear on AS that running anything other then 32:1 will blow up your equipment. if i ran 500 tanks through a 576 in 2 months then i think your saw will last you a lifetime at 50:1 lol.[/QUOT
> Ive worked on alota saws in my shop running 50to1 stihl ultra and the cylinders/pistons looked like total hell! Improper tune, wrong mix, straight gas , who knows


----------



## Big_Wood

yes BUT those saws were probably used like mine for 2 -3 years straight with very little maintenance if any. you saw will never get to that point in 30 years lol


----------



## KG441c

westcoaster90 said:


> yes BUT those saws were probably used like mine for 2 -3 years straight with very little maintenance if any. you saw will never get to that point in 30 years lol


Right. Thats pretty impressive on the 576 at 50to1 in a commercial enviroment. How does it compare to a 372 in performance?


----------



## Big_Wood

KG441c said:


> Right. Thats pretty impressive on the 576 at 50to1 in a commercial enviroment. How does it compare to a 372 in performance?



i like them both. 372 handles alot better. 576 runs better stock. if i went and bought one today i'd probably get a 372. well, i'd get a 390  but 372 if 70cc was what i was after.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i always here of failures here running 50:1, but i run 50:1 and have never had a failure. i think most of the fails on this forum is from people *grabbing the wrong gas jug*.
or *they don't know how to mix*.
EXAMPLE ----- such and such person owns a 2 gallon gallon can but fills it completely full of gas which is most likely 2.5 gallons, then the person adds a bottle of 50:1 mix when it is for 1 GALLON of gas and bingo after 2 tanks the saw is cooked.


----------



## Big_Wood

jakewells said:


> i always here of failures here running 50:1, but i run 50:1 and have never had a failure. i think most of the fails on this forum is from people *grabbing the wrong gas jug*.
> or *they don't know how to mix*.
> EXAMPLE ----- such and such person owns a 2 gallon gallon can but fills it completely full of gas which is most likely 2.5 gallons, then the person adds a bottle of 50:1 mix when it is for 1 GALLON of gas and bingo after 2 tanks the saw is cooked.



so really you are saying that cooked saws here are a result of 125:1? lol i hold no doubt.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

to tell you the truth i have seen a lot of stupid sh** the past three years on this forum so it would not surprise me if somebody mixes fuel like that.
further more if wouldn't surprise me if a heavy drinker is cutting wood and grabs the wrong can to refill the saw either.


----------



## Pud

Last time i checked this saw had 270 hours of actual run time mostly used as my climbing/cherry picker saw with about 4 weeks thinning and a resonable amount of firewood thrown in aswell over probibly around 14 months or so @32.1
Has epic bog and never really been a great running saw , wanna guess what oil ?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

supertech


----------



## Pud

Chainsaw oil !! Husky xp .. And probibly a few bottles of stihl oil


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Gasoline is all solvent of one kind or another. And my comments assume apples to apples when it pertains to ethanol content. An ethanol doped fuel will have less btu than an ethanol free fuel, which is one of the reasons ethanol is a scam.



Absolutely correct and is exactly how I understand it. However SOME high octane pump blends use alcohols to raise octane, which lowers the amount of energy. Now fuels producers like VP manage ever aspect of the fuel, especially vapor pressure.


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> i always here of failures here running 50:1, but i run 50:1 and have never had a failure. i think most of the fails on this forum is from people *grabbing the wrong gas jug*.
> or *they don't know how to mix*.
> EXAMPLE ----- such and such person owns a 2 gallon gallon can but fills it completely full of gas which is most likely 2.5 gallons, then the person adds a bottle of 50:1 mix when it is for 1 GALLON of gas and bingo after 2 tanks the saw is cooked.



For the most part 50:1 is fine, especially in a stock saw, tuning is far more vital. I simply see no downside to 32:1 so that's what I recommend, and run in my saws. All of my other *** blowers, trimmer run on 50:1 mix.


----------



## tree monkey

Andyshine77 said:


> People including engines builders some with decades of experience told you what was what, you didn't listen, and you still don't know what you're talking about. I'm not trying to attack you and I never was, but you resisted the information you were given, and did so arrogantly. There was no clear winner, in any way shape or form.





Andyshine77 said:


> Again you're resisting not listening, don't take things so seriously, go have a beer or something.





Andyshine77 said:


> You would have to determine the trapped compression ratio. What psi number? I don't know exactly, but I do know it will be over 250psi.





bwalker said:


> Really you need to talk about compression ratio when talking about octane requirements.





Ron660 said:


> Fastest to slowest using ALL timed cuts:
> 1) HP2
> 2) R2
> 3) K2
> 4) R50
> 5) Saber
> 
> There was a 7.1% difference in total cut times between 1st place (HP2) and last place (Saber).





blsnelling said:


> If that's the case, then there's something wrong with the saw that it cannot tune correctly.





bwalker said:


> When I was going through drums of 2 cycle oil per year 50:1 and cheap oil ruled the day.



all the spec sheets, data sheets, whats in this oil, what in rated for, whats in that oil from the oil company's don't mean **** to me. I could care less about whats in it. I just want the fastest cut times and a reasonably clean engine. these 2 factors should give the engine a long life.

for me that oil is schaeffers. been using it in all the 2t engines we have for over 20 years. not 1 oil related failure.

i'm very interested in what redbull is doing. if 7%faster cut times don't mean anything to you then do the rest of us a favor and don't post anymore, we are tired of your dribble.
i'll take that free 7% in a race any day.
real world testing will show more then any lab testing,


----------



## tree monkey

redbull660 said:


> man you forgot to use your favorite word ... we're all "culls" right?
> 
> poorly thought out. yeah like how you opened up that muffler on the 260.
> 
> 
> 
> I proved quite a bit. Your just butt hurt about it. Had 2r won, my test would of totally been valid. JUST like the one that showed 32:1 was best out of the ratios. See you said that was valid. But this one that didn't fit what you wanted is not.
> 
> 
> 
> well dudes you have fun speculating about what is what. I'll be back in 5 months to actually DO something again. Don't wear out your keyboards! Happy holidays



if you want to test over the winter in a heated shop just say the word. I test in there over the winter anyway.


----------



## Andyshine77

tree monkey said:


> all the spec sheets, data sheets, whats in this oil, what in rated for, whats in that oil from the oil company's don't mean **** to me. I could care less about whats in it. I just want the fastest cut times and a reasonably clean engine. these 2 factors should give the engine a long life.
> 
> for me that oil is schaeffers. been using it in all the 2t engines we have for over 20 years. not 1 oil related failure.
> 
> i'm very interested in what redbull is doing. if 7%faster cut times don't mean anything to you then do the rest of us a favor and don't post anymore, we are tired of your dribble.
> i'll take that free 7% in a race any day.
> real world testing will show more then any lab testing,



Tell us how you really feel lol.

Sorry but the test showed very little difference in cut times, and you know it. I get why you responded, you know RB personally so that's cool. Unfortunately you simply can't have a constructive conversation about this topic with him, he puts up a wall and declares whet he thinks as the gospel, and instead of listening he goes into attack mode. I've tried to give him advice in PM's a pat on the the back here and there, he wouldn't have it. I have all the respect in the world for you and what you know, lets not make this personal like RB did. He simply was trying to tell others myself included what was what, he knew little coming into this, but he has learned the hard way. Is what I say dribble? maybe so.

RB you're taking this all too personally. Your test did prove something 32:1 and 40:1 both work well, lets leave it at that and move on.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> Tell us how you really feel lol.
> 
> Sorry but the test showed very little difference in cut times, and you know it. I get why you responded, you know RB personally so that's cool. Unfortunately you simply can't have a constructive conversation about this topic with him, he puts up a wall and declares whet he thinks as the gospel, and instead of listening he goes into attack mode. I've tried to give him advice in PM's a pat on the the back here and there, he wouldn't have it. I have all the respect in the world for you and what you know, lets not make this personal like RB did. He simply was trying to tell others myself included what was what, he knew little coming into this, but he has learned the hard way. Is what I say dribble? maybe so.
> 
> RB you're taking this all too personally. Your test did prove something 32:1 and 40:1 both work well, lets leave it at that and move on.




Seriously??? There was way more to the test then cut times... Again your closed minded and biased. People can watch and decide for themselves if it's worth trying one of them oils whether it's hp2 or the others. Spend a couple of bux and try it.

twisting stuff again - nice spin dude. you saint! 

oh bloody hell... NONE of your post is even remotely true...the truth. Man your just as bad as bwalker.


************** Ok anyone that isn't a regular poster here and looking for information. Go watch the videos in this post and decide for yourself if any of the oils are worth a try and please let use know how you like any of them. DO NOT LISTEN TO ANY OF US! HERE IS A ACTUAL TEST. GO DECIDE FOR YOURSELF*

*http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-405#post-5629361*


*Method -*

put first test oil/gas in saw (hp2) 
make 20 cuts in firewood
put brand new stihl chain on
piss rev saw to stretch chain. 
retension chain
clean air filter
top off bar oil
top off gas
Now wait and check jug temp until 225 F is reached
start saw
2 cuts log 1 
2 cuts log 2
2 cuts log 3
2 cuts log 4
2 cuts log 5
walk back to table as fast as I can turn off saw 
check jug temp
dump hp2 out
put in oil/gas #2 (k2) 
make 20 cuts in firewood
put brand new stihl chain on
piss rev saw to stretch chain. 
repeat repeat repeat

apparently 7% difference in cut times, or 45-50F degrees difference in jug temp, or the obvious differences in exhaust sound... is all meaningless, to the Trolls anyway. So again, don't listen to anyone here, please watch and decide for yourselves.


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> Seriously??? There was way more to the test then cut times... Again your closed minded and biased. People can watch and decide for themselves if it's worth trying one of them oils whether it's hp2 or the others. Spend a couple of bux and try it.
> 
> twisting stuff again - nice spin dude. you saint!



I started running HP2 in July, so I'm not sure what I'm biased about. Difference in exhaust sound? Twisting what? At this point you've totally lost me, and not to be mean, but I think you have some issues. Carry on I'll stop trying to be the voice of reason. Best of luck.


----------



## redbull660

Andyshine77 said:


> I started running HP2 in July, so I'm not sure what I'm biased about. Difference in exhaust sound? Twisting what? At this point you've totally lost me, and not to be mean, but I think you have some issues. Carry on I'll stop trying to be the voice of reason. Best of luck.




oh of course! now you've been using hp2 all the long!  damn andy stop holding out on us!


----------



## KG441c

So far my pick is still R50 but liking HP2 also. Ive ran several oils and looked into several motors to see whats goin on internally. Id like to seen 800t thrown in there RB as its been one of the best Ive tried


----------



## KG441c

Been trying that bottle of oil for awhile now!!  All Good oils but glad to know 3 of them is at the top of the list on RB tests.


----------



## Moparmyway

Personally, I appreciate the efforts and videos that have been made available to us.

It's obvious to me that R50 sounds good, but runs a little funny in the videos after several cuts, but I never had that problem, the smell gets to me quickly now, so I mix it 50/50 with 800 off road and I like it.

I have a few more oils to try now thanks to the videos and results and will be keeping an eye out for future videos. I love my 50/50 mix, and I like K2. I will see how 2R and HP2 act in my stuff as soon as I need more oil. 

I do understand that there are variables at play that arent controlled, but in the videos you can see some of them play out and I take that into consideration. 

All that being said, I appreciate the time and efforts that were needed to get this done. I just have 2 questions, which may have been covered already, but I need to ask.

1. Was this 661 ported ?
2. What fuel was used ?


----------



## redbull660

KG441c said:


> So far my pick is still R50 but liking HP2 also. Ive ran several oils and looked into several motors to see whats goin on internally. Id like to seen 800t thrown in there RB as its been one of the best Ive tried



for sure dude. I really want to see 800, dumonde and mobil 1 ... Si7 also has peaked my interest as well.

well maybe we can set up a few logs in scott's shop and test a couple more of these. 

maybe i'll keep r50 around and test it again in the ported 661. Still think it stinks...BAD! lol




Moparmyway said:


> 1. Was this 661 ported ?
> 2. What fuel was used ?



1. just my muffler mod 
2. 91 Eth free


----------



## Moparmyway

KenJax Tree said:


> Flushing cutting stumps with R50 will damn near kill you[emoji15]


QTLA
If it dont kill you, it will surely make you sick!!!


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> for sure dude. I really want to see 800, dumonde and mobil 1 ... Si7 also has peaked my interest as well.
> 
> well maybe we can set up a few logs in scott's shop and test a couple more of these.
> 
> maybe i'll keep r50 around and test it again in the ported 661. Still think it stinks...BAD! lol


Test away man! U got folks interested and that appreciate the efforts. Of the oils ive tested I mostly like to see whats goin on internally with lowerend residual and burn on top in which I usually cut my saw off at wot to check


----------



## KenJax Tree

I don't really think R50 "stinks" it just gets to me.

My only test of oil is mixing it, using it and knowing how clean it burns all at a reasonable cost. I don't the the time, energy, money, or ambition for anything else.[emoji3] 

From my own observation HP2 is my first choice and 2R is my second. This Amsoil Saber seem decent too but i haven't used a lot of it.


----------



## KG441c

redbull660 said:


> yeah maybe the next test. I'll have scott cut as well, if he's willing? For example.
> 
> Log 1 = redbull cuts on
> Log 2 = Tree Monkey cuts on
> 
> That way we have two different operators and can figure out more faster. Scott knows waaay more than I do.
> 
> hell if he is willing and has time, I'll mix up some more R50, hp2, k2, 2r and have him cut some firewood with each.
> 
> another reason I like R50 and Hp2 is they had nice tone even at 40 and 45:1. Where k2 and 2r were only good at 32:1. The test was done at 50-55F degrees. So what happens when I go to cut at 95 F out?


That sounds like a good plan. Throw 800t in there please


----------



## redbull660

or if scott is willing, what if I filled up the saw with xyz oil at abc ratio. With OUT him knowing what it is, then had him cut some firewood with the stuff and give his impressions. A "blind" test if you will.


----------



## bwalker

I think that 661 is running erratic, hence all the changes in sound or feel in the cut..


----------



## hardpan

KenJax Tree said:


> I don't really think R50 "stinks" it just gets to me.
> 
> My only test of oil is mixing it, using it and knowing how clean it burns all at a reasonable cost. I don't the the time, energy, money, or ambition for anything else.[emoji3]
> 
> From my own observation HP2 is my first choice and 2R is my second. This Amsoil Saber seem decent too but i haven't used a lot of it.



If my memory serves me, you were the one who first felt strongly about the HP2. Now it seems to be a strong contender. I'll say it again, you heavy users bring a lot to the discussion. As Brad correctly told me way back, at my low usage I would be fine with any "big name" brand but I still read every page and just maybe I'll give HP2 a spin for the fun of it. LOL


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> I started running HP2 in July, so I'm not sure what I'm biased about. Difference in exhaust sound? Twisting what? At this point you've totally lost me, and not to be mean, but I think you have some issues. Carry on I'll stop trying to be the voice of reason. Best of luck.


Anyone who who actually understands w


redbull660 said:


> yeah maybe the next test. I'll have scott cut as well, if he's willing? For example.
> 
> Log 1 = redbull cuts on
> Log 2 = Tree Monkey cuts on
> 
> That way we have two different operators and can figure out more faster. Scott knows waaay more than I do.
> 
> hell if he is willing and has time, I'll mix up some more R50, hp2, k2, 2r and have him cut some firewood with each.
> 
> another reason I like R50 and Hp2 is they had nice tone even at 40 and 45:1. Where k2 and 2r were only good at 32:1. The test was done at 50-55F degrees. So what happens when I go to cut at 95 F out?


Glad they have nice sound properties...LMFAO!


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> I've owned 6 of these things now. one had a problem. This one runs fine.
> 
> the changes it had on r50 and hp2 were linear. 32 to 40 to 45 to 50. 2r k2 they were linear on as well. There was nothing out of the ordinary in the way the saw ran.
> 
> I've now run in the 661 h1r, stihl, 800, schaeffers, k2, 2r, hp2, r50, mobil one, amsoil. So yeah nothing out of the ordinary as far as how the saw ran.


I'm not arguing with you. However, for some one who is knowledgeable it's pretty apparent that tuning causes the change in sound and torque you have observed..


----------



## KG441c

Ill take alil tradeoff in speed for protection and there has to be the happy medium. So far it looks that HP2 is the best gig in town


----------



## Atechguy

I reckon this is Bobsthechainoil .com


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Ill take alil tradeoff in speed for protection and there has to be the happy medium. So far it looks that HP2 is the best gig in town


I wouldn't assume there is a tradeoffs based on this test..


----------



## tree monkey

KG441c said:


> Ill take alil tradeoff in speed for protection and there has to be the happy medium. So far it looks that HP2 is the best gig in town



my thoughts are the oil that give the fastest cut times and lowest temps will give the best protection.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> I wouldn't assume there is an tradeoffs based on this test..


Gotta start somewhere and its gotta be better than guessing I would think. Maybe these test at least showed in general some traits in these oils and what responded best in mtronics and or the 661


----------



## bwalker

tree monkey said:


> my thoughts are the oil that give the fastest cut times and lowest temps will give the best protection.


Based on what?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Gotta start somewhere and its gotta be better than guessing I would think. Maybe these test at least showed in general some traits in these oils and what responded best in mtronics and or the 661


But it is guessing...


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> But it is guessing...


Cmon now. It has some credibility with as many cuts per oil averaged even including variables? And the tuning was null being the unit is mtronics and RB did all in his control to even the variables


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Cmon now. It has some credibility with as many cuts per oil averaged even including variables? And the tuning was null being the unit is mtronics and RB did all in his control to even the variables


Your making the assumption that Mtronic controls tightly. It obviously doesn't as the observations of tone and torque are indications of tuning..
And that's just one of the variables.
Paper, rock, scissors may be more accurate..


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Your making the assumption that Mtronic controls tightly. It obviously doesn't as the observations of tone and torque are indications of tuning..
> And that's just one of the variables.
> Paper, rock, scissors may be more accurate..



uhh no, your making the assumption that the saw doesn't...

Each oil has a different formulation/make up.

Each oil ran slightly different at the same ratio and different ratios.

Saw runs fine. The saw is the constant here. It's the oil is the variation. You have 4 different formulations of course they are going to act different.


----------



## Ron660

Andyshine77 said:


> I started running HP2 in July, so I'm not sure what I'm biased about. Difference in exhaust sound? Twisting what? At this point you've totally lost me, and not to be mean, but I think you have some issues. Carry on I'll stop trying to be the voice of reason. Best of luck.


How clean does HP2 burn compared to others?


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> uhh no, your making the assumption that the saw doesn't...
> 
> Each oil has a different formulation/make up.
> 
> Each oil ran slightly different at the same ratio and different ratios.
> 
> Saw runs fine. It's the oil. You have 4 different formulations of course they are going to act different.


You don't know that.. What I know is when I have a motor that screams and lacks torque it's lean..I don't blame it on the oil. Perhaps in time as you gain experience you will understand this?


----------



## Ron660

Redbull, does HP2 contain esters?


----------



## one.man.band

Red..... for whatever its worth. First off, I did some temperature testing a couple of years ago, my end results were very similar to the results you have posted up within this thread. (my results are buried somewhere within another forum).

At the time, was interested in the max temp in a box muffler, with a saw under heavy load. Also, found how long it took from a cold start to reach that temp, but was unable to record times on the rate of cool down, which was due to just how rapidly the motor cools down when chain is pulled out of the cut, (as rpms decrease down to idle speed).

My take on your latest testing methods differs with some of the folks who have commented so far.
From what I see, you have good consistency in your results. A 7% total spread of results, by any testing methodology, imo, is about as good as can be expected. For that matter, have seen a 10% spread on 3 consecutive runs, minutes apart on the same dyno, with zero changes made to the motor. About 3% is quite more common norm. (4ST on dynojet). 2ST results from a brake style are about useless, imo. Aircooled 2ST lose power, the longer they are run. In about 20 minutes 20% down. Would tend to think, as the case gets heat soaked, order in which the different oils were tested would have an influence on results?

(If, you have done so, and I have missed it buried in the thread somewhere, sorry and please disregard the following). 

If you are still reading this, common to testing is to establish a baseline to find the amount of % error in the testing method used. (Maybe this will calm the naysayers). Keeping this in mind, a baseline oil is chosen. Any oil. The **** gets tested out of it. Say it went through 10 tests using your methods. Then the amount of spread % and then average spread % is figured out. Since its the same oil, the % spread/average spread, is only showing the swing of your testing method. The results you have shared so far would have more impact. Baseline does not need to be established before actually takes place, and can be done at any time.....but is common to do beforehand.

I do not care what oil anyone uses, just like testing and numbers. Talking about BTU's, curves and whatever else is interesting, but has little influence on the tests since the same fuel was used. Would rather take interest in a curvy woman.

(Put me on ignore, dgaf).


----------



## Andyshine77

redbull660 said:


> oh of course! now you've been using hp2 all the long!  damn andy stop holding out on us!


You can document how long I've been running hp2 based on my posts in this thread. I've ran K2 more than any other oil.


----------



## Andyshine77

Ron660 said:


> How clean does HP2 burn compared to others?



It's a bit too early to tell I've only burned a few gallons, but so far it seems a bit cleaner than K2. It does have a stronger smell and smokes a bit at startup, but after that it has little smell or smoke. It doesn't seem to leave quite as much oil in the case or on the top as R50 or Motul 800 but it's still better than R2, which left everything a bit dry looking. All of this is subjective however, and I've seen no signs of premature ware with any of the oil talked about in this thread. My personal top choices are K2, HP2 and R50. Motul 800 oils like crazy, but leaves a mess in the exhaust and smells bad, that's the only reason I don't care for it.


----------



## Andyshine77

Ron660 said:


> Redbull, does HP2 contain esters?



I believe so. What type I'm not sure.


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> Red..... for whatever its worth. First off, I did some temperature testing a couple of years ago, my end results were very similar to the results you have posted up within this thread. (my results are buried somewhere within another forum).
> 
> At the time, was interested in the max temp in a box muffler, with a saw under heavy load. Also, found how long it took from a cold start to reach that temp, but was unable to record times on the rate of cool down, which was due to just how rapidly the motor cools down when chain is pulled out of the cut, (as rpms decrease down to idle speed).
> 
> My take on your latest testing methods differs with some of the folks who have commented so far.
> From what I see, you have good consistency in your results. A 7% total spread of results, by any testing methodology, imo, is about as good as can be expected. For that matter, have seen a 10% spread on 3 consecutive runs, minutes apart on the same dyno, with zero changes made to the motor. About 3% is quite more common norm. (4ST on dynojet). 2ST results from a brake style are about useless, imo. Aircooled 2ST lose power, the longer they are run. In about 20 minutes 20% down. Would tend to think, as the case gets heat soaked, order in which the different oils were tested would have an influence on results?
> 
> (If, you have done so, and I have missed it buried in the thread somewhere, sorry and please disregard the following).
> 
> If you are still reading this, common to testing is to establish a baseline to find the amount of % error in the testing method used. (Maybe this will calm the naysayers). Keeping this in mind, a baseline oil is chosen. Any oil. The **** gets tested out of it. Say it went through 10 tests using your methods. Then the amount of spread % and then average spread % is figured out. Since its the same oil, the % spread/average spread, is only showing the swing of your testing method. The results you have shared so far would have more impact. Baseline does not need to be established before actually takes place, and can be done at any time.....but is common to do beforehand.
> 
> I do not care what oil anyone uses, just like testing and numbers. Talking about BTU's, curves and whatever else is interesting, but has little influence on the tests since the same fuel was used. Would rather take interest in a curvy woman.
> 
> (Put me on ignore, dgaf).


Someone gets it!


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> It's a bit too early to tell I've only burned a few gallons, but so far it seems a bit cleaner than K2. It does have a stronger smell and smokes a bit at startup, but after that it has little smell or smoke. It doesn't seem to leave quite as much oil in the case or on the top as R50 or Motul 800 but it still better than R2 which left everything a bit dry looking. All of this is subjective however, and I've seen no signs of premature ware with and of the oil talked about in this thread. My personal top choices are K2, HP2 and R50. Motul 800 oils like crazy, but leaves a mess in the exhaust and smells bad, that's the only reason I don't care for it.


I have a friend that has ran it(HP2) for years in his bikes with seemingly good results Riding behind him it does stink, and his exhaust is always wet. He also has never tuned the thing and just runs it. He has fouled a few plugs.
Residual oil in the crankcase is indicative of ratio and what the engine was operated like when shut down...for the millionth time. I recently pulled my 260 down to delete the base gasket and it was pretty dry. I am using Motul 800 in it exclusively since new... in don't read anything into that fact at all, other than it was ran out of gas prior to shutting it down.


----------



## nitehawk55

Andyshine77 said:


> It's a bit too early to tell I've only burned a few gallons, but so far it seems a bit cleaner than K2. It does have a stronger smell and smokes a bit at startup, but after that it has little smell or smoke. It doesn't seem to leave quite as much oil in the case or on the top as R50 or Motul 800 but it still better than R2 which left everything a bit dry looking. All of this is subjective however, and I've seen no signs of premature ware with and of the oil talked about in this thread. My personal top choices are K2, HP2 and R50. Motul 800 oils like crazy, but leaves a mess in the exhaust and smells bad, that's the only reason I don't care for it.



What ratio are you running these at ?
Just curious because I'm using Saber but I'll be running some 800 just to try . 

Using different oils is like having a different girl


----------



## bwalker

Any not these oils will run fine in a saw..very low load and output.
Just avoid oils ment for outboards, as Stihl and Husky reccomend.


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Using different oils is like having a different girl


You must not get out much!Lol


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> I have a friend that has ran it(HP2) for years in his bikes with seemingly good results Riding behind him it does stink, and his exhaust is always wet. He also has never tuned the thing and just runs it. He has fouled a few plugs.
> Residual oil in the crankcase is indicative of ratio and what the engine was operated like when shut down...for the millionth time. I recently pulled my 260 down to delete the base gasket and it was pretty dry. I am using Motul 800 in it exclusively since new... in don't read anything into that fact at all, other than it was ran out of gas prior to shutting it down.



Some oils do seem to leave more oil, but it is subjective for sure.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Some oils do seem to leave more oil, but it is subjective for sure.


Think about what I said and then about how a two cycle motor is lubricated and it makes perfect sense.


----------



## Andyshine77

nitehawk55 said:


> What ratio are you running these at ?
> Just curious because I'm using Saber but I'll be running some 800 just to try .
> 
> Using different oils is like having a different girl



32:1


----------



## Andyshine77

Andyshine77 said:


> Some oils do seem to leave more oil, but it is subjective for sure.



I know, just stating what I've seen.


----------



## Trx250r180

Who is going to be the first one to try Saber at 100 to 1 ?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

Trx250r180 said:


> Who is going to be the first one to try Saber at 100 to 1 ?


you first on your mill.


----------



## bwalker

jakewells said:


> you first on your mill.


I'll be he first to try it out as dust control..


----------



## Andyshine77

A 100:1 you say? I'll pass.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

that is awful.


----------



## Trx250r180

I will throw a loop in this thread with the 25,000 mile oil change for my truck


----------



## Andyshine77

jakewells said:


> that is awful.



Saw had low hours too.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

nope i'll pass i change my oil every 10,000 miles anyway i think 25,000 is a bit much.


----------



## Trx250r180

Andyshine77 said:


> A 100:1 one you say? I'll pass.
> 
> View attachment 463028
> View attachment 463036


Any idea how long was ran at that ratio for that to happen ?


----------



## Andyshine77

Trx250r180 said:


> I will throw a loop in this thread with the 25,000 mile oil change for my truck View attachment 463038
> View attachment 463039
> View attachment 463040



I'll pass on that too.


----------



## Trx250r180

jakewells said:


> nope i'll pass i change my oil every 10,000 miles anyway i think 25,000 is a bit much.


I will keep an eye on it ,10k will be max for me also ,if looks dirty sooner i will dump it .


----------



## Andyshine77

Trx250r180 said:


> Any idea how long was ran at that ratio for that to happen ?



Don't remember for sure, it was quite a few years back, but I believe a few tanks. It's a 441.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i send my oil to blackstone labs for oil analysis when the TBN of the oil falls below 2 i change my oil i send it off every 5,000 miles.
i use chevron delo 5w40 full syn.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> A 100:1 one you say? I'll pass.
> 
> View attachment 463028
> View attachment 463036


I can't think of a worse application for a 100:1 oil ratio than a strato motor.


----------



## bwalker

In an automotive engine the car rusts apart up here well before the motor is worn out. Can't obsess about oil given this fact.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

engines wear out before they rust out here.


----------



## Trx250r180

Same here ,50 year old cars can be rust free out here still .I just crushed a 1970 ford f250 that had no rust


----------



## Deleted member 83629

a 1970 f350 you make jake cry


----------



## Trx250r180

it is the green one on the bottom center ,the one above it was a 1979 4x4


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> A 100:1 one you say? I'll pass.
> 
> View attachment 463028
> View attachment 463036


Wasn't that chuckers neighbors saw? He milled with it at that ratio as well. Amazing it had not seized up


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> Wasn't that chuckers neighbors saw? He milled with it at that ratio as well. Amazing it had not seized up



No I believe he was running Woodlandpro @ 50:1 and tuning a bit lean. That saw belongs to a friend and former member here. WildKnight was his name here.


----------



## mdavlee

Andyshine77 said:


> No I believe he was running Woodlandpro @ 50:1 and tuning a bit lean. That saw belongs to a friend and former member here. WildKnight was his name here.


Ok. I couldn't remember which one it was. Both had 441s


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> Ok. I couldn't remember which one it was. Both had 441s



Correct. the saw was apart for porting, it's still running with that piston, which has a pop up now. A little cleaning and the top end was fine, but everything was totally dry and overheated as you can see in the pics.


----------



## nitehawk55

Trx250r180 said:


> it is the green one on the bottom center ,the one above it was a 1979 4x4 View attachment 463054



Those all look solid to me . 
No call for truck boxes/parts to the salt areas ??


----------



## nitehawk55

I run my Saber at 40:1 and it burns clean . I would never even try to run it at 100:1 in a saw but you may get away with that in grass trimmers and the like .


----------



## CR888

Synthetic oils were first engineered due to the fact they resist higher prolonged heat and resist breaking down under extreme heat conditions. They were not introduced for their better lubrication properties rather their resistance to breaking down under high temperature where a mineral oil could resulting in catashropic failure. Unlike a two stroke, a four stroke recycles oil in a sump and uses that oil as a primary source cooling and lubrication, so under extreme heat conditions (way hotter than a two stroke or two stroke oil will ever get too), they can offer better protection due to their larger uniform molecules. These larger molecules do NOT cling to metal better, they will not provide better lubrication in a chainsaw that NEVER see's the heat that would make synthetics a better option. ln a two stoke oil is not recycled its mixed with fuel (two stokes main source of cooling) goes into the engine does its job, gets burnt and shot out the exhaust. Mineral oil aids combustion, synthetics don't really burn so don't combust and provide power (unlike mineral oil). The real benefits of synthetics cannot ever be realised in a two stroke, four stokes yes but they are a total different kettle of fish. Marketing plays a big role in this, guys here think spending 2x3xhell5x the cost of a quality mineral oil must be a better option right.....its five time the price it must be better right? Forget that, start thinking and understanding the role oil plays in a two stroke and make a decision based on just that. Don't forget OEM's like stihl only introduced synthetic oil to combat dirty valves in four mixes, they have been recommending mineral oil for decades with good proven results. A chainsaw simply will never see the benefits a synthetic oil may offer, there are far more disadvantages using it in this application. Think about it.


----------



## nitehawk55

Be interesting to put that to the test by running 2 identical saws on a lean mix of dino and syn and seeing which one suffers a failure .


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Ok. I couldn't remember which one it was. Both had 441s


 Have you tried HP2 yet?


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> Have you tried HP2 yet?


No it will be probably the week of Christmas before I get to try any new oils.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> Correct. the saw was apart for porting, it's still running with that piston, which has a pop up now. A little cleaning and the top end was fine, but everything was totally dry and overheated as you can see in the pics.


Those strato engines run hot and are less lubricated to begin with. Through a stunt at them like milling at 100:1 and it's amazing the motor didn't seize.


----------



## Andyshine77

CR888 said:


> Synthetic oils were first engineered due to the fact they resist higher prolonged heat and resist breaking down under extreme heat conditions. They were not introduced for their better lubrication properties rather their resistance to breaking down under high temperature where a mineral oil could resulting in catashropic failure. Unlike a two stroke, a four stroke recycles oil in a sump and uses that oil as a primary source cooling and lubrication, so under extreme heat conditions (way hotter than a two stroke or two stroke oil will ever get too), they can offer better protection due to their larger uniform molecules. These larger molecules do NOT cling to metal better, they will not provide better lubrication in a chainsaw that NEVER see's the heat that would make synthetics a better option. ln a two stoke oil is not recycled its mixed with fuel (two stokes main source of cooling) goes into the engine does its job, gets burnt and shot out the exhaust. Mineral oil aids combustion, synthetics don't really burn so don't combust and provide power (unlike mineral oil). The real benefits of synthetics cannot ever be realised in a two stroke, four stokes yes but they are a total different kettle of fish. Marketing plays a big role in this, guys here think spending 2x3xhell5x the cost of a quality mineral oil must be a better option right.....its five time the price it must be better right? Forget that, start thinking and understanding the role oil plays in a two stroke and make a decision based on just that. Don't forget OEM's like stihl only introduced synthetic oil to combat dirty valves in four mixes, they have been recommending mineral oil for decades with good proven results. A chainsaw simply will never see the benefits a synthetic oil may offer, there are far more disadvantages using it in this application. Think about it.


I respectfully disagree.

I honestly don't even pay attention to the cost of oil, so that plays no role. I'm not sure I've see any real two cycle oil marketing. I've done my research, some of which involved the disassembly of the engine for measurements before and after an oil was used. The evidence and benefits of synthetic oil in two cycle engines is quite clear. Do mineral oils work? Sure they do, they surly have better corrosion protection. With that said synthetics are in every other way superior. And synthetics do lubricant better because of the particle uniformity and lack of contamination. Esters also have a low molecular weight, the oil actually penetrates into the metal, it doesn't just sit on the surface.

If you don't care for synthetics that's fine run what works for you.


----------



## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> Those strato engines run hot and are less lubricated to begin with. Through a stunt at them like milling at 100:1 and it's amazing the motor didn't seize.


The saw was used for light firewood processing, it wouldn't have last an minute on a sawmill.


----------



## bwalker

CR888 said:


> Synthetic oils were first engineered due to the fact they resist higher prolonged heat and resist breaking down under extreme heat conditions. They were not introduced for their better lubrication properties rather their resistance to breaking down under high temperature where a mineral oil could in catashropic failure. Unlike a two stroke, a four stroke recycles oil in a sump and uses that oil as a primary source cooling and lubrication, so under extreme heat conditions (way hotter than a two stroke or two stroke oil will ever get too), they can offer better protection due to their larger uniform molecules. These larger molecules do NOT cling to metal better, they will not provide better lubrication in a chainsaw that NEVER see's the heat that would make synthetics a better option. ln a two stoke oil is not recycled its mixed with fuel (two stokes main source of cooling) goes into the engine does its job, gets burnt and shot out the exhaust. Mineral oil aids combustion, synthetics don't really burn so don't combust and provide power (unlike mineral oil). The real benefits of synthetics cannot ever be realised in a two stroke, four stokes yes but they are a total different kettle of fish. Marketing plays a big role in this, guys here think spending 2x3xhell5x the cost of a quality mineral oil must be a better option right.....its five time the price it must be better right? Forget that, start thinking and understanding the role oil plays in a two stroke and make a decision based on just that. Don't forget OEM's like stihl only introduced synthetic oil to combat dirty valves in four mixes, they have been recommending mineral oil for decades with good proven results. A chainsaw simply will never see the benefits a synthetic oil may offer, there are far more disadvantages using it in this application. Think about it.


I don't know where to begin....


----------



## blsnelling

I've been running 800 2T Off Road at 40:1. The mufflers on the 661s are dry.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im running 800 2t offroad at 50:1 and the only trace of oil i found was around the exhaust port.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I've been running 800 2T Off Road at 40:1. The mufflers on the 661s are dry.



I've seen some goo, but it has to be that pos 661 you've got running leam, I'll give you $300 for it just so you don't have to fiddle with it anymore.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> I've seen some goo, but it has to be that pos 661 you've got running leam, I'll give you $300 for it just so you don't have to fiddle with it anymore.


I guess that would be better than burning it, lol


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I guess that would be better than burning it, lol



No don't burn it, I have 300 bucks for you. Okay okay I'll give you 350.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Those strato engines run hot and are less lubricated to begin with. Through a stunt at them like milling at 100:1 and it's amazing the motor didn't seize.


it didnt though.


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> it didnt though.



The additives prevented that from happening from what I could hypothesize. It was only a matter of time, or a stump cut.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

im going to do my own test im going to mix this oil with 3 gallons of gas and test it 
either my saw will die or i will choke on the fumes, got this at family dollar for a whooping 1.30.


----------



## Bwildered

Andyshine77 said:


> The additives prevented that from happening from what I could hypothesize. It was only a matter of time, or a stump cut.


you only have to look at the claims of how long engines can run with out any oil after running out of synthetic oil before seizing to know it would be a long time & definately not 1 stump if it was tuned correctly & had no mechanical defects.
fangskt


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> you only have to look at the claims of how long engines can run with out any oil after running out of synthetic oil before seizing to know it would be a long time & definately not 1 stump if it was tuned correctly & had no mechanical defects.
> fangskt



Maybe so, but quite a bit of damage would occur. Actually seizing an engine takes a lot.


----------



## KG441c

.


Andyshine77 said:


> Maybe so, but quite a bit of damage would occur. Actually seizing an engine takes a lot.


Myself and several friends with 200 to 300hp drag outboards all ran Amsoil at 32to1 with 0 issues and also ran Amsoil lower unit lube with 0 issues. I disagree with the Amsoil not being a good oil but not at 100to1. But in my chainsaws it burn dirty pretty quickly with depoists so I quit using it and switched to 800t then this then that!! Lol! So far I like 800t, r50, k2, and trying HP2 now


----------



## mdavlee

The last saw I put together with a new piston was showing a wash pattern after one tank. What oil was I using?


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> The last saw I put together with a new piston was showing a wash pattern after one tank. What oil was I using?


DuMonde


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> DuMonde


Nope.


----------



## KG441c

Off post fellows but my daughter got married yesterday. First picture Kaitlyn and Drew Lawson 2nd picture Me and Kaitlyn


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> The last saw I put together with a new piston was showing a wash pattern after one tank. What oil was I using?


Schaffers


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Schaffers


Nope. Its one in the thread. I haven't tried Schaeffer yet. I was trying dumonde but didn't pull a plug to look at a piston top.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Nope. Its one in the thread. I haven't tried Schaeffer yet. I was trying dumonde but didn't pull a plug to look at a piston top.


Okay okay!! Which one already!!!???? Lol!!


----------



## mdavlee

KG441c said:


> Okay okay!! Which one already!!!???? Lol!!


Starts with a M[emoji2]


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> Starts with a M[emoji2]


Motul 800t


----------



## porsche965

I would bet most high production loggers don't have clean piston tops.


----------



## KG441c

porsche965 said:


> I would bet most high production loggers don't have clean piston tops.


Im on edge about clean pistons or not. Ive had folks here that know what they are talkin about tell me they like to see a thin hard layer of carbon across the piston but most everyone thinks the top should be spotless? I dont buy it being clean myself as ive used every oil mentioned almost and all left a buildup


----------



## Bwildered

mdavlee said:


> The last saw I put together with a new piston was showing a wash pattern after one tank. What oil was I using?


in some countries they only wash once a week whether they need it or not, is it really that bad to have some wash? LOL
thangst


----------



## KenJax Tree

Some of the women shower like hockey players....after 3 periods.


----------



## redbull660

KenJax Tree said:


> Some of the women shower like hockey players....after 3 periods.



Think I'm going to pass on breakfast today and go directly to church after that visual lol


----------



## porsche965

I've asked numerous loggers how their saws were burning their mix and if their piston tops/crowns were clean. 

They looked at me like they were standing in a ladies dress shop instead of a Chainsaw Dealer.


----------



## porsche965

In the end all that matters to me is the amount of production I can put up quickly.

And my body is always the weakest link when compared to a great running chainsaw.


----------



## porsche965

It would be nice if more High Producers would chime in with experiences. A tank here and a tank there or a few cords a year is like watching a football game on a big screen verses listening to the game on a radio.


----------



## porsche965

That's what the Dealers are telling me as well.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I would bet most high production loggers don't have clean piston tops.


Nor should any two cycle...or four cycle for that matter.


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> It would be nice if more High Producers would chime in with experiences. A tank here and a tank there or a few cords a year is like watching a football game on a big screen verses listening to the game on a radio.


Too busy working and when they are not most don't talk shop.
They also don't really care as saws are disposable tools that the replace every 2 to 2 years. 
Couldn't care less which two cycle oil cuts fastest either.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Too busy working and when they are not most don't talk shop.


Yep. But one thing is for sure that most of them dont care about fuel and oils but bring that tore up mess to my shop for me to fix!!! Lol!! Keep sawin and not caring boys! Make me some $$$$$$$


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Too busy working and when they are not most don't talk shop.
> They also don't really care as saws are disposable tools that the replace every 2 to 2 years.
> Couldn't care less which two cycle oil cuts fastest either.



I'm sure they don't. But we aren't them. We all have CAD and ported saws. So gimme the fastest oil baby!!!


----------



## Deleted member 83629

i could care less if it makes it any faster i just want to a oil that will help the saw last.
but i don't run ported saws.


----------



## hardpan

Can it be said: fastest=coolest=best protection ?


----------



## redbull660

mdavlee said:


> I want 2 oils. The fastest for racing and then one to use for the rest of the time. Don't have to be the same one.




Well personally I want the fastest all the time! I figure the faster I get done cutting the sooner I get BEER ! woohoo!


----------



## mdavlee

redbull660 said:


> Well personally I want the fastest all the time! The faster I get done cutting the sooner I get BEER ! woohoo!


I'm willing to sacrifice a little protection for racing. It just has to mix with funny fuels.


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Yep. But one thing is for sure that most of them dont care about fuel and oils but bring that tore up mess to my shop for me to fix!!! Lol!! Keep sawin and not caring boys! Make me some $$$$$$$





redbull660 said:


> I'm sure they don't. But we aren't them. We all have CAD and ported saws. So gimme the fastest oil baby!!!


There is no fastest oil...


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> There is no fastest oil...


Fastest would probably be none!!


----------



## bwalker

hardpan said:


> Can it be said: fastest=coolest=best protection ?


No..


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> There is no fastest oil...



That's no fun man. CAD killer!!!


----------



## hardpan

bwalker said:


> No..



Best 2 out of 3? LOL


----------



## Westboastfaller

Ok...go tell the prime contractor or employer. "Give me the fastest oil baby"..lol..are you willing to bring your own oil in because its a sec faster and are day rate? Definetly not! Now they are bringing in 'gas station brands that have come a long way in my time but I like Castral or X P. (Not cheap here)do I buy my prefrence??? I have a few times.Do I know anyone else also? Not one person. Also like Mike said; (IF we have a choice) People stick with something we haven't had a proplem with. Problem includes cancer too...lol. like getting a guy to change his ratio, cigs, or beer. If they change it, Its because it makes $cents$
I am almost more disapointed if they have no paratac in the chain oil, I feel the difference on my hands when i'm not in the wood. Most chain oils dont have it as its the most expensive addition. As mentioned,
we are not looking to get forever out of the saw but my hands are important.



"Never look a gift horse in the mouth"

Thats the skinny in the real world.
Do carry on


----------



## nitehawk55

Have any of you ever read some of the posts on the Bob is the oil guy forums ? , some of these car/truck owners are so OCD about what oils to use or filters , oil change intervals.....on and on. I have to laugh at a lot of them because it just borders on the edge of stupidity with the worry and concern about what oils and filters they use .
BUT , there is some valid points made and discovered such as oil filter elements tearing on some filter brands , oils that seem to work better in severe conditions so while it seems a laughable quagmire of talk there is some good that comes of it through members constantly monitoring and observing what is going on with oils and oil filters and the like on their cars .
I do come from an automotive and small engine background so I like to keep on top of these things and make some of my own decisions based off this .

I feel there is no difference in Saws or other *** , always good to get feedback .


----------



## bwalker

Westboastfaller said:


> Ok...go tell the prime contractor or employer. "Give me the fastest oil baby"..lol..are you willing to bring your own oil in because its a sec faster and are day rate? Definetly not! Now they are bringing in 'gas station brands that have come a long way in my time but I like Castral or X P. (Not cheap here)do I buy my prefrence??? I have a few times.Do I know anyone else also? Not one person. Also like Mike said; (IF we have a choice) People stick with something we haven't had a proplem with. Problem includes cancer too...lol. like getting a guy to change his ratio, cigs, or beer. If they change it, Its because it makes $cents$
> I am almost more disapointed if they have no paratac in the chain oil, I feel the difference when i'm not in the wood. Most chain oils dont have it as its the most expensive addition. as mentioned,
> We are not looking to get forever out of the saw
> 
> 
> 
> "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
> 
> Thats the skinny in the real world.
> Do carry on


FWIW Paratac is PIB mixed with a praffinic oil.. good stuff.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> There is no fastest oil...


that would mean there is no such thing as the coefficient of friction & racing teams & chemical engineers have been wasting their time for decades!


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> that would mean there is no such thing as the coefficient of friction & racing teams & chemical engineers have been wasting their time for decades!


No...


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> There is no fastest oil...


 I disagree. If you're consistently getting faster times with a certain brand of oil I'd say it's faster. But it would only apply to your saw in that size and type of wood you've tested. The results may, or may not, vary with a different saw and wood used. When I find time, between work and hunting, I'll test a few oils myself in a non-mtronic saw.


----------



## Ron660

I have 800 off-road, Mobil, and HP2 to test. Not only in timed cuts but also protection and clean burning. I'd like to see some timed cuts from individuals that mill. That would be interesting.


----------



## Bwildered

Ron660 said:


> I disagree. If you're consistently getting faster times with a certain brand of oil I'd say it's faster. But it would only apply to your saw in that size and type of wood you've tested. The results may, or may not, vary with a different saw and wood used. When I find time, between work and hunting, I'll test a few oils myself in a non-mtronic saw.


to counter the silly bwalker statement, a dragster engine using the faster oil going down the track at 300 mph beats his opponent who is using a not so fast oil by 2 car lengths, he or she has a faster oil on two counts, the engine has made more HP & been more responsive using the faster oil & it was travelling faster down the track.
ta


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I disagree. If you're consistently getting faster times with a certain brand of oil I'd say it's faster. But it would only apply to your saw in that size and type of wood you've tested. The results may, or may not, vary with a different saw and wood used. When I find time, between work and hunting, I'll test a few oils myself in a non-mtronic saw.





Ron660 said:


> I disagree. If you're consistently getting faster times with a certain brand of oil I'd say it's faster. But it would only apply to your saw in that size and type of wood you've tested. The results may, or may not, vary with a different saw and wood used. When I find time, between work and hunting, I'll test a few oils myself in a non-mtronic saw.


You wont find an oil that's faster beyond the margin of error. Correlation isn't causation..


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> to counter the silly bwalker statement, a dragster engine using the faster oil going down the track at 300 mph beats his opponent who is using a not so fast oil by 2 car lengths, he or she has a faster oil on two counts, the engine has made more HP & been more responsive using the faster oil & it was travelling faster down the track.
> ta


Except we are talking two strokes. Your original response was your typical unimaginative troll bs and didn't merit a more than one word response.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I have 800 off-road, Mobil, and HP2 to test. Not only in timed cuts but also protection and clean burning. I'd like to see some timed cuts from individuals that mill. That would be interesting.


For a true comparison timed cuts is a complete joke.
Even on a dyno it would be exceedingly difficult to get valid results.
I would worry much more about chain, motor tuning and jetting.


----------



## mdavlee

Ron660 said:


> I have 800 off-road, Mobil, and HP2 to test. Not only in timed cuts but also protection and clean burning. I'd like to see some timed cuts from individuals that mill. That would be interesting.


Timing milling cuts is hard. You have to have someone to put wedges in for you and stuff like that to not have to stop. The temperatures at the end of a cut are what I want to see. If I can find a pyrometer reasonable I'll try to get some.


----------



## Westboastfaller

Bwildered said:


> to counter the silly bwalker statement, a dragster engine using the faster oil going down the track at 300 mph beats his opponent who is using a not so fast oil by 2 car lengths, he or she has a faster oil on two counts, the engine has made more HP & been more responsive using the faster oil & it was travelling faster down the track.
> ta



No






.


.

This is not all true 

As a matter of fact I learnt this lesson many years ago, its a little uncanny as the lesson came at the arrival of these two milestones that happend weeks apart. 
Think dragster breaking 300 mph 1/4 mile. Now think breaking the 5 sec 1/4
Neither accomplished both.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You wont find an oil that's faster beyond the margin of error. Correlation isn't causation..


Choosing an oil strictly based on timed cuts isn't my goal although it'll be fun. Protection and clean burning is more important. I want to see if there is a significant deviation, > +/- 10%, from each brand on timed cuts using my ported 660. I'll soon have a ported 372 to use as a "2nd verifier".


----------



## bwalker

How do you propose testing protection? How about clean burning?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> How do you propose testing protection? How about clean burning?


As for as clean burning, a quick way to determine that is pull the muffler. I'll leave it up to more experienced AS members, such as my buddy Keith and Mdavlee, to check the lower end for lubrication.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Except we are talking two strokes. Your original response was your typical unimaginative troll bs and didn't merit a more than one word response.


your trying to weasel out of a stupid statement you made which has been pointed out by a couple of us, it doesnt matter what type of engine an oil runs in, its still moving around the engine doing its job in either, but the viscosity of the oil does relate to how much power is made, hense there are fast & slow oils in relation to getting the job done & why the best (fast) oils are a basic ingredient in race motors to get the most HP, your mythical margin of error is just wank words.


----------



## Bwildered

Westboastfaller said:


> No
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> .
> 
> This is not all true
> 
> As a matter of fact I learnt this lesson many years ago, its a little uncanny as the lesson came at the arrival of these two milestones that happend weeks apart.
> Think dragster breaking 300 mph 1/4 mile. Now think breaking the 5 sec 1/4
> Neither accomplished both.


you have me there, I should have been a bit more accurate in my hypothetical speed units.
fanks


----------



## Westboastfaller

-One saw can be of one size only.
-One saw can be of one brand only
-One saw with fastest time cuts will be the best saw for that single activity.
-One saw with many impressive 'attributes' will be the best for a multi activity job.

A builder will not bank his rep with me on fast time cuts in a certain model. I kind of get the impression MOST builders have gone the way of MAX in one area
and suffer in others. The bulk of the consumers it seems are in a
position not to need it all in one or even two saws. Win win for some builbers (not all)

As a remote faller in challanging terrain and very much unlike, the more common residential worker then that puts me on the outside looking in through my "doors of preception"

I'm just a Gen X'er of a little genneration that noboby could reach

WOW..Pretty colours


----------



## Trx250r180

Has anyone tested Gary goo yet ?


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Has anyone tested Gary goo yet ?


I wanted to but heard it wasn't JASO-FD certified and didn't contain esters.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> your trying to weasel out of a stupid statement you made which has been pointed out by a couple of us, it doesnt matter what type of engine an oil runs in, its still moving around the engine doing its job in either, but the viscosity of the oil does relate to how much power is made, hense there are fast & slow oils in relation to getting the job done & why the best (fast) oils are a basic ingredient in race motors to get the most HP, your mythical margin of error is just wank words.


In no part of this dribble did you say anything of substance or accuracy..per usual.
Drag racing fantasies aside..your wrong. And talking about stupid...look in the mirror.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> In no part of this dribble did you say anything of substance or accuracy..per usual.
> Drag racing fantasies aside..your wrong. And talking about stupid...look in the mirror.


yep! no mirrors in your house. LOL


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> For a true comparison timed cuts is a complete joke.
> Even on a dyno it would be exceedingly difficult to get valid results.
> I would worry much more about chain, motor tuning and jetting.


It's only a joke if you state something as a "fact" and you haven't tested and "proven" it yourself. The variables you stated (chains, motor tuning, and jetting) can also be tested. Chains (semi-skip vs full skip), motor tuning (ear tuning vs tach), jetting (372xp carb vs 372 x-torq) could also be tested. I enjoy testing ammo in my different rifles too.


----------



## tree monkey

In the first test or pre-test or whatever u wanna call it. Where redbull tested 32 vs 40 vs 45 vs 50. 32:1 was the winner in all 4 oils. bwalker had no problem with that. Patted himself on the back as I told ya so. no surprise there.


Next test 32:1 for each oil head to head. Same “scientific method used” the results didn’t turn out as expected by the Trolls. So now, we get all these posts about scientific method, margin of error, saw is running erratic, he don’t know what he was doing, what he is doing is worthless and a waste of time, the test is invalid etc.


Yet the same method was used. Said method achieved basically the KNOWN results on the first test. Soooo (here is the key point) obviously the method is working correctly.


----------



## Westboastfaller

It doesn't tell the whole tail for a minority group about the saws.
but I supose thats not the point.


----------



## tree monkey

bwalker said:


> When I was going through drums of 2 cycle oil per year 50:1 and cheap oil ruled the day.





bwalker said:


> I got the same deals on yamalube outboard oil when I ran yamaha outboards commercialy. Perks when you buy 35+ motors every few years.



please tell us more


----------



## bwalker

tree monkey said:


> In the first test or pre-test or whatever u wanna call it. Where redbull tested 32 vs 40 vs 45 vs 50. 32:1 was the winner in all 4 oils. bwalker had no problem with that. Patted himself on the back as I told ya so. no surprise there.
> 
> 
> Next test 32:1 for each oil head to head. Same “scientific method used” the results didn’t turn out as expected by the Trolls. So now, we get all these posts about scientific method, margin of error, saw is running erratic, he don’t know what he was doing, what he is doing is worthless and a waste of time, the test is invalid etc.
> 
> 
> Yet the same method was used. Said method achieved basically the KNOWN results on the first test. Soooo (here is the key point) obviously the method is working correctly.


I Stated the 32:1 results were what I expected because it jives with previous scientific tests. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## bwalker

tree monkey said:


> please tell us more


In regards to what?


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> It's only a joke if you state something as a "fact" and you haven't tested and "proven" it yourself. The variables you stated (chains, motor tuning, and jetting) can also be tested. Chains (semi-skip vs full skip), motor tuning (ear tuning vs tach), jetting (372xp carb vs 372 x-torq) could also be tested. I enjoy testing ammo in my different rifles too.


Which is what's being done here..


----------



## porsche965

bwalker said:


> I Stated the 32:1 results were what I expected because it jives with previous scientific tests. Nothing more, nothing less.



What's YOUR definition of "Scientific" that applies to chainsaws?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> I wanted to but heard it wasn't JASO-FD certified and didn't contain esters.


No esters but I think it may have Copenhagen spit for lubricants


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> No esters but I think it may have Copenhagen spit for lubricants


Probably Astroglide!!


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I Stated the 32:1 results were what I expected because it jives with previous scientific tests. Nothing more, nothing less.


What are your top three choices of 2-cycle oil? 
As of now, I want to compare Mobil and HP2 to 800 off-road I've been using.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> What are your top three choices of 2-cycle oil?
> As of now, I want to compare Mobil and HP2 to 800 off-road I've been using.


All of the oils in redbulls test are fine. Like some more than others, but all are decent.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Has anyone tested Gary goo yet ?


What's the flashpoint and viscosity with the Copenhagen additive?


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> What's the flashpoint and viscosity with the Copenhagen additive?


That depends on how long you have been using the bottle for a spitter .


----------



## nitehawk55

Be great to have an industrial type dyno and do tests with each oil at different mixes and see how much peak HP varies running the saw under load .


----------



## bwalker

nitehawk55 said:


> Be great to have an industrial type dyno and do tests with each oil at different mixes and see how much peak HP varies running the saw under load .


Even with such a dyno getting a good test done would be very difficult.


----------



## tree monkey

bwalker said:


> Even with such a dyno getting a good test done would be very difficult.



wow,, your level of stupid ranks right up there with moody.


----------



## weedkilla

So I have a question, and the answers are all buried in this thread somewhere.....
I want to run 50:1 in a husky t540 to richen up the non-adjustable low side (Rather than 32:1).
I dropped in a couple of hundred pages ago and decided yamalube 2r was the pick of things, is there a better choice?


----------



## Deleted member 83629

weedkilla said:


> So I have a question, and the answers are all buried in this thread somewhere.....
> I want to run 50:1 in a husky t540 to richen up the non-adjustable low side (Rather than 32:1).
> I dropped in a couple of hundred pages ago and decided yamalube 2r was the pick of things, is there a better choice?


you ever try husqvarna xp oil i have used it with no problems.


----------



## Andyshine77

Most oils won't effect tuning a whole lot between 50:1 and 32:1. 
Yamalube is fine, along with oem oils.


----------



## weedkilla

Andyshine77 said:


> Most oils won't effect tuning a whole lot between 50:1 and 32:1.
> Yamalube is fine, along with oem oils.


You'd think that, but I was able to convince myself it did enough.


----------



## Andyshine77

weedkilla said:


> You'd think that, but I was able to convince myself it did enough.



I'm not saying it doesn't, it does, but very little. The best option is obviously to find a fully adjustable carb.


----------



## weedkilla

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm not saying it doesn't, it does, but very little. The best option is obviously to find a fully adjustable carb.


Not disagreeing in any way.


----------



## Andyshine77

weedkilla said:


> Not disagreeing in any way.



I didn't think you were, I was just making myself clear.


----------



## redbull660

weedkilla said:


> So I have a question, and the answers are all buried in this thread somewhere.....
> I want to run 50:1 in a husky t540 to richen up the non-adjustable low side (Rather than 32:1).
> I dropped in a couple of hundred pages ago and decided yamalube 2r was the pick of things, is there a better choice?




why not just buy 2 different oils -

mix brand A - 50:1

mix brand B - 50:1

run a tank with A
run a tank with B

tell us what you think


----------



## Moparmyway

redbull660 said:


> why not buy 2 different oils -
> 
> mix brand A - 50:1
> 
> mix brand B - 50:1
> 
> run a tank with A
> run a tank with B
> 
> tell us what you think


Because that is the only way for anyone to tell on their own, so it wont happen cause it makes sense and would put an end to the all of the questions any one individual has ................... custom tailored for them, but never happen because it would stop them from asking "which oil should I run"


----------



## bwalker

tree monkey said:


> wow,, your level of stupid ranks right up there with moody.


Says the moron that believes an oil netted a 7% gain... And the same guy that advocates running a marine oil in a saw despite warnings from Stihl and Husky not to do so..
I relize you have some financial interest in redbulls lunacy, but it's not sharp to make idiotic statements like the above on the internet. It puts your work in doubt.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Because that is the only way for anyone to tell on their own, so it wont happen cause it makes sense and would put an end to the all of the questions any one individual has ................... custom tailored for them, but never happen because it would stop them from asking "which oil should I run"


If you have to ask which oil, you should probaly stick with an OEM oil...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Says the moron that believes an oil netted a 7% gain... And the same guy that advocates running a marine oil in a saw despite warnings from Stihl and Husky not to do so..
> I relize you have some financial interest in redbulls lunacy, but it's not sharp to make idiotic statements like the above on the internet. It puts your work in doubt.



well you want to run that 2r injector oil. It's soo thin and filled with so many solvents. Little wonder it ran like dog crap at anything but 32:1. Even then it was lean. It wasn't the saw either. Saw runs better on stihl ultra than it does on your yamalube 2r...even at 32:1.

lunacy - The only lunacy is you posting over 2,000 times (no joke) on this thread... in which you think there is no point to any of this.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Annnnnnnnd away we go!.......


----------



## Trx250r180

I have adjustable carbs on all my saws, the few brands have tried all ran slightly different even tuned the best,milling h1r had better torque than yamalube,but bucking with the hybrid the h1 r was not loaded enough to run right. This just goes to show they all have their place ,and what oil works in one application may not be ideal for another,the h1 r did not work right in my trimmers also


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well you want to run that 2r injector oil. It's soo thin and filled with so many solvents. Little wonder it ran like dog crap at anything but 32:1. Even then it was lean. It wasn't the saw either. Saw runs better on stihl ultra than it does on your yamalube 2r...even at 32:1.
> 
> lunacy - The only lunacy is you posting over 2,000 times (no joke) on this thread... in which you think there is no point to any of this.


Lunacy is borrowing against your house to run these BS test.
And I could care less how any oil did in your make believe test.. but by slamming 2r you once again display your lack of knowledge. It's no supprise you attribute a tuning condition to a particular oil..


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> This just goes to show they all have their place ,and what oil works in one application may not be ideal for another



No truer words have ever been written .............. however most people aint anal enough, like we are, to notice that difference


----------



## KenJax Tree

[emoji23] reading this drivel first thing in the morning just makes my day. Its better than coffee.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> No truer words have ever been written .............. however most people aint anal enough, like we are, to notice that difference


I have never had an oil I couldn't tune to run right. Some require more work then others.
If a particular combination lakes torque it's not the oil causing it..


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> Lunacy is borrowing against your house to run these BS test.
> And I could care less how any oil did in your make believe test.. but by slamming 2r you once again display your lack of knowledge. It's no supprise you attribute a tuning condition to a particular oil..



well I didn't. So get your facts straight.

If you didn't care you wouldn't be here, responding 2 seconds after anyone posts a different opinion then your own.

2R is crap on paper. I gave it a fair shake. and it did poorly. you just can't stand that. so you attribute it's poor performance to anything you can.



bwalker said:


> I have never had an oil I couldn't tune to run right. Some require more work then others.
> If a particular combination lakes torque it's not the oil causing it..



lunacy = you actually believe this!


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I have never had an oil I couldn't tune to run right. Some require more work then others.
> If a particular combination lakes torque it's not the oil causing it..


Some carbs cant be tuned ..............admittantly I am not speaking of chainsaw carbs, but I have lots of 2 cycle motors that have non-tunable carbs


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> well I didn't. So get your facts straight.
> 
> If you didn't care you wouldn't be here, responding 2 seconds after anyone posts a different opinion then your own.
> 
> 2R is crap on paper. I gave it a fair shake. and it did poorly. you just can't stand that. so you attribute it's poor performance to anything you can.
> 
> 
> 
> lunacy = you actually believe this!


It placed 2nd...
And you stated you borrowed money from your house to finance this..
And the fact you attribute a tuning issue is testimant to why your tests are not valid...


----------



## redbull660

bwalker said:


> It placed 2nd...
> And you stated you borrowed money from your house to finance this..
> And the fact you attribute a tuning issue is testimant to why your tests are not valid...




lunacy = me taking time to respond to your BS posts.

later!


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have never had an oil I couldn't tune to run right. Some require more work then others.
> If a particular combination lakes torque it's not the oil causing it..


Have you ever milled with a chainsaw where 1 cut could take a tank or more of fuel ?


----------



## bwalker

I have only milled once. Made some beams for a bridge in a remote location.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I have only milled once. Made some beams for a bridge in a remote location.


Well if it is in my head or not ,when milling i can tell the difference between how different brands run ,not the alaska mill ,the norwood on tracks there is a difference on how my 660 runs between different brands even retuned to make best power ,the exhaust tone is different between some brands also .


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Well if it is in my head or not ,when milling i can tell the difference between how different brands run ,not the alaska mill ,the norwood on tracks there is a difference on how my 660 runs between different brands even retuned to make best power ,the exhaust tone is different between some brands also .


I'll repeat. I have never had any two stroke motor that I couldn't tune to run perfectly. I have never "felt" any oil to make more power in a given situation.
What you are describing is a text book tuning issue. In your case likely made more apparent due to how your using your saw and the fuel requirements changing as the saw warms in a long milling cut.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I'll repeat. I have never had any two stroke motor that I couldn't tune to run perfectly. I have never "felt" any oil to make more power in a given situation.
> What you are describing is a text book tuning issue. In your case likely made more apparent due to how your using your saw and the fuel requirements changing as the saw warms in a long milling cut.


Well i have had some oils tune better than others then i guess ,on a chainsaw or weedeater i should not have to rejet them to make them useable .the H or L screws should be enough in my opinion .


----------



## KG441c

Ive had plenty of carbs that wouldnt adjust with h and l adjustments on them. Blown check valves, dirty, ported and standard jetting is too lean, air leaks, etc. Regardless of the oil if carb is operating properly u should be able to go as rich or lean as u like ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Well i have had some oils tune better than others then i guess ,on a chainsaw or weedeater i should not have to rejet them to make them useable .the H or L screws should be enough in my opinion .


The adjustments are usually very small. Certain oils do cause the need for more coarse adjustment and I steer clear of them.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> The adjustments are usually very small. Certain oils do cause the need for more coarse adjustment and I steer clear of them.


Like 800 and h1r ?


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> Like 800 and h1r ?


Never had tuning issues with 800t? Didnt notice H1R to be anything that couldnt be tuned out. I didnt care for the crappy brown color left behind by H1R


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Like 800 and h1r ?


I never had any problems with 800. I am currently using it in one saw.
H1R has been a problem.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> Like 800 and h1r ?


When I went from stihl ultra 50:1 to 800 off-road at 32:1 in my 660 a significant adjustment was needed. I've noticed when ambient temps fluctuate 30 degrees or so a slight carb adjustment is needed. Less than that I just go with it as long as it's not 4-stroking under load.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> When I went from stihl ultra 50:1 to 800 off-road at 32:1 in my 660 a significant adjustment was needed. I've noticed when ambient temps fluctuate 30 degrees or so a slight carb adjustment is needed. Less than that I just go with it as long as it's not 4-stroking under load.


Certain saws are more sensitive than others as well. A ported ms260 is very sensitive IME to small changes in temp. While my older ported 372's run pretty good most all the time.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> When I went from stihl ultra 50:1 to 800 off-road at 32:1 in my 660 a significant adjustment was needed. I've noticed when ambient temps fluctuate 30 degrees or so a slight carb adjustment is needed. Less than that I just go with it as long as it's not 4-stroking under load.


One other thing. If an engine is four stroking it's literally choking on fuel. I have always adjusted the carb till it cleans up no load, then made some cuts and adjusted till it felt best. I then take a tach reading no load and you have a reliable point to tune to.


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> When I went from stihl ultra 50:1 to 800 off-road at 32:1 in my 660 a significant adjustment was needed. I've noticed when ambient temps fluctuate 30 degrees or so a slight carb adjustment is needed. Less than that I just go with it as long as it's not 4-stroking under load.


I keep a screwdriver in my pocket whenever cutting because of that ,nothing more aggravating than a blubbering sounding saw to me ,other than one with a dull chain .


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> When I went from stihl ultra 50:1 to 800 off-road at 32:1 in my 660 a significant adjustment was needed. I've noticed when ambient temps fluctuate 30 degrees or so a slight carb adjustment is needed. Less than that I just go with it as long as it's not 4-stroking under load.


Thats normal. When u r trying to force more oil through a opening adjusted for 50to1 an adjustment will be necessary but that has nothing to do with the oil but rather the amount


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Certain saws are more sensitive than others as well. A ported ms260 is very sensitive IME to small changes in temp. While my older ported 372's run pretty good most all the time.


Your 260 is ported now Ben ?


----------



## Moparmyway

I can tune my 066 by ear and it will 4 stroke out of the wood @ 15,000
It makes its most power tuned to 13,200. I know this because this is where it holds the most RPM while cutting.

Anyone wanna guess how bad its blubbering at 13,200 ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Your 260 is ported now Ben ?


I wasn't speaking of my current 260. I have had 260's ported by EHP, Greffard and Walkers


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> I can tune my 066 by ear and it will 4 stroke out of the wood @ 15,000
> It makes its most power tuned to 13,200. I know this because this is where it holds the most RPM while cutting.
> 
> Anyone wanna guess how bad its blubbering at 13,200 ?


Probably sounds like a nanny goat. Most saws will take more fuel to make more power but adjusting porting for higher rpm and more fuel flow can bring that rpm back up? My 241 was strato gutted and intake lowered and taking on all kinds of fuel but transfers and exhaust was raised also and maintained rpm in the cut


----------



## Ron660

Moparmyway said:


> I can tune my 066 by ear and it will 4 stroke out of the wood @ 15,000
> It makes its most power tuned to 13,200. I know this because this is where it holds the most RPM while cutting.
> 
> Anyone wanna guess how bad its blubbering at 13,200 ?


13200 must be tuned for big wood.


----------



## weedkilla

redbull660 said:


> why not just buy 2 different oils -
> 
> mix brand A - 50:1
> 
> mix brand B - 50:1
> 
> run a tank with A
> run a tank with B
> 
> tell us what you think


Happily, anyone care to suggest an oil that runs the richest/needs the most leaning out on an adjustable carb?
That's all I'm asking. Throw the dog a bone without making him re do everything you've tried.


----------



## Moparmyway

Ron660 said:


> 13200 must be tuned for big wood.


36" and .404


----------



## Trx250r180

weedkilla said:


> Happily, anyone care to suggest an oil that runs the richest/needs the most leaning out on an adjustable carb?
> That's all I'm asking. Throw the dog a bone without making him re do everything you've tried.


More oil actually creates a lean condition


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> 36" and .404


Bet with that bar buried it doesnt 4 stroke with that kinda load


----------



## KG441c

Trx250r180 said:


> More oil actually creates a lean condition


Yep. Higher concentration of oil trying to be forced through the same opening adjusted for 50to1 requires the orfice to be richened or opened more to flow the lower ratio of oil


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> I can tune my 066 by ear and it will 4 stroke out of the wood @ 15,000
> It makes its most power tuned to 13,200. I know this because this is where it holds the most RPM while cutting.
> 
> Anyone wanna guess how bad its blubbering at 13,200 ?


A real saw blubbers @ 15500 still loaded with a 36 and .404


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Yep. Higher concentration of oil trying to be forced through the same opening adjusted for 50to1 requires the orfice to be richened or opened more to flow the lower ratio of oil


Are you saying it's because of a higher viscosity?


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> A real saw blubbers @ 15500 still loaded with a 36 and .404


Video of you running it with white gloves .................. or it never happened


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> Are you saying it's because of a higher viscosity?


Yes the way I see it Brad. If u have orfice at say .040 and adjusted to flow say 30 wt oil and switch to say 100wt oil the orfice wont flow the same without increasing it hence the lean condition goin to the higher viscosity


----------



## blsnelling

But it's not near that thick when thinned with gasoline. I would think the viscosity difference of pre-mix at various ratios would be nearly immeasurable. I could be wrong, but I can't see viscosity having anything to do with it. JUST MY OPINION. I believe it's because there's simply less fuel/volume.


----------



## KG441c

Do u see any benefits running lower than 32to1 in these saws?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Do u see any benefits running lower than 32to1 in these saws?


In general, no. But if one is milling I would not hesitate to drop down to 20:1.
My 562 runs pretty good at that ratio on K2 with a 24" burried in our hard woods.
Milling is about torture to a saw. I can't see even doing it more than incidentally. Band mills are not that expensive and waste much less wood.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I think 50 to 1 is 2.6 oz vs 4 oz at 32 to 1 for 1 gallon of gas that is enough to change tune to me ,some guys are just happy if it starts and cuts though


50:1 = 2% oil
40:1 = 2.5%
32:1 = 3.125%


----------



## blsnelling

Trx250r180 said:


> Castor in a saw ? Say it aint so .


I run Castor 927 in my piped 390XP, simply because I have it left over from my Banshee days. It's always spotless when I remove the head. Of course, it doesn't get much run time either.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Do u see any benefits running lower than 32to1 in these saws?


I agree with Bwalker on milling, but will add that a dedicated stumping saw should also see more oil than a firewooding or felling saw


----------



## Trx250r180

Moparmyway said:


> I agree with Bwalker on milling, but will add that a dedicated stumping saw should also see more oil than a firewooding or felling saw


3 1/2 hours to sharpen a chain then cut stumps


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> In general, no. But if one is milling I would not hesitate to drop down to 20:1.
> My 562 runs pretty good at that ratio on K2 with a 24" burried in our hard woods.
> Milling is about torture to a saw. I can't see even doing it more than incidentally. Band mills are not that expensive and waste much less wood.


The band I'll isn't the most expensive part. It's a tractor or bobcat big enough to move the logs and a nice dual tandem gooseneck trailer to haul it all on.


----------



## Moparmyway

Trx250r180 said:


> 3 1/2 hours to sharpen a chain then cut stumps



Nah, the stump*ed* chains get square filed .................. although lately, if I cant see any rot, I have been using the .404 square. It still lasts longer than .375 semi


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I agree with Bwalker on milling, but will add that a dedicated stumping saw should also see more oil than a firewooding or felling saw


You must be cutting these stumps for grinding?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> You must be cutting these stumps for grinding?


Yup.............. or leaving "as close as you can get it"

I ruined a couple of throw aways going dang near ground level, then got smart


----------



## KenJax Tree

I mix 40ish:1 for everything, fill er up, and let er rip.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

You pilgrims say HP2 is good oil eh ?..i cant get 16oz bottles for 6 bucks locally , i may buy a case of it..i technically dont pay for it anyway so it doesnt matter but that sounds like a good deal to me.


----------



## tree monkey

bwalker said:


> Says the moron that believes an oil netted a 7% gain... And the same guy that advocates running a marine oil in a saw despite warnings from Stihl and Husky not to do so..
> I relize you have some financial interest in redbulls lunacy, but it's not sharp to make idiotic statements like the above on the internet. It puts your work in doubt.



your right, i'm a moron. what the hell do I know about chainsaws anyway.



weedkilla said:


> Happily, anyone care to suggest an oil that runs the richest/needs the most leaning out on an adjustable carb?
> That's all I'm asking. Throw the dog a bone without making him re do everything you've tried.



h1r and schaeffers



Trx250r180 said:


> I think 50 to 1 is 2.6 oz vs 4 oz at 32 to 1 for 1 gallon of gas that is enough to change tune to me ,some guys are just happy if it starts and cuts though



should you need to change the tune when changing oil if both are at 32-1? if yes, then would that change the power of the motor? is this not the point at hand?



bwalker said:


> In general, no. But if one is milling I would not hesitate to drop down to 20:1.
> My 562 runs pretty good at that ratio on K2 with a 24" burried in our hard woods.
> Milling is about torture to a saw. I can't see even doing it more than incidentally. Band mills are not that expensive and waste much less wood.



i'm speechless, you posted something that makes sence


----------



## Trx250r180

tree monkey said:


> should you need to change the tune when changing oil if both are at 32-1? if yes, then would that change the power of the motor? is this not the point at hand?


The last 4 oils I have tried dumonde dtp I had to richen the most to run good,very crisp response in my opinion,Mobil and yamalube we're pretty close 1/8 of a turn to tune out within each other,belray the leanast but milling it seemed to chug along the best part throttle ,this was milling ,my results falling and bucking I liked the dumonde the best ,mainly because of how it limbed, my plug was also the cleanest with dumonde even though I had to tune the richest,very strange but how it was,you would think tuned the richest would have the darker plug.


----------



## Andyshine77

Trx250r180 said:


> The last 4 oils I have tried dumonde dtp I had to richen the most to run good,very crisp response in my opinion,Mobil and yamalube we're pretty close 1/8 of a turn to tune out within each other,belray the leanast but milling it seemed to chug along the best part throttle ,this was milling ,my results falling and bucking I liked the dumonde the best ,mainly because of how it limbed, my plug was also the cleanest with dumonde even though I had to tune the richest,very strange but how it was,you would think tuned the richest would have the darker plug.



I've never noticed any real difference in throttle response between oils. This really comes down to tuning and perception IMHO. Reading the plug out of a saw is also very subjective, to say the least.


----------



## porsche965

I notice a difference. Subjectivity is to each his own, especially concerning performance.


----------



## Stihlman441

So can the auto tune saws work out what oil and mix is beeing used ?



Bull sh-t


----------



## Deleted member 83629

no bullsh*t i can use either 32:1 or 50:1 in my auto tune 545 and it will compensate for the different mixes.


----------



## KG441c

Doesnt it strictly hunt out rpm?


----------



## KG441c

Yes and it either richens or leans according to rpm from what I understand


----------



## Deleted member 83629

not sure but my runs the same with either mix only thing i noticed is the slight increase in smoke when it starts.


----------



## KG441c

jakewells said:


> not sure but my runs the same with either mix only thing i noticed is the slight increase in smoke when it starts.


does it bobble off long idles ?


----------



## Andyshine77

KG441c said:


> Doesnt it strictly hunt out rpm?



That's all the Mtronic system looks for.


----------



## Deleted member 83629

KG441c said:


> does it bobble off long idles ?


no its does bobble off long idles it has excellent throttle response. it never has bogged on me but the saw is a little cold blooded.


----------



## one.man.band

what does the solenoid in the elec carb do? wondering.

a. when it's "on" restricts fuel flow
b. when "on" allows more fuel to flow
c. none of above
d. thicken molecules


----------



## KG441c

A, B, and no doubt D


----------



## tree monkey

one.man.band said:


> what does the solenoid in the elec carb do? wondering.
> 
> a. when it's "on" restricts fuel flow
> b. when "on" allows more fuel to flow
> c. none of above
> d. thicken molecules



it opens and closes for every revolution of the engine. the longer it's open, the more fuel it gets


----------



## one.man.band

tree monkey said:


> it opens and closes for every revolution of the engine. the longer it's open, the more fuel it gets



10-4.

was thinking it was a fuel- injector- like solenoid deal.

must use trigger pulse off the fly-wheel magnet.


----------



## one.man.band

one.man.band said:


> 10-4.
> 
> was thinking it was a fuel- injector- like solenoid deal.
> 
> must use trigger pulse off the fly-wheel magnet.



.......simpler yet. no trigger. just skims a little bit off the coil each go round. may be better guess.


----------



## Trx250r180

Need to figure this camera thing out ,tried on the mellow saw that rides in the pickup ,i think this is mobil one 





,but saw was run on h1r most of its life ,looks a little rich on the plug .Am curious what the 660 looks like that has been milling with mobil now,need to play around with this thing see if can get better image ,maybe the decomp hole ,these are through the spark plug hole


----------



## Trx250r180

More pictures here is 440 hybrid ,has some weird wash marks ,the whole squish band is washed clean on the piston top ,is this common ? I can make out the D shape of the jug on the piston top .Oil mobil 1 , 32 to 1 I let the saw idle for a bit before shutdown is why wet plug . the letter S is on the intake side ,arrow facing the intake port .


----------



## Trx250r180

Here is the milling 660 ,i was surprised by thick layer of carbon buildup ,maybe because it uses the fuel faster than normal time ? I go through a tank of fuel in about 10 minutes of cutting normally milling ,the carbon had crack lines all over it too ,the intake side was washed clean by the intake port ,the exhaust port where polished had very little carbon on it ,as the squish band was pretty clean ,most of the piston was pretty thick carbon on this saw .piston top is wet because let idle for a while too cool off after the long milling passes .looked more clear before took a picture of a picture ,i need to see if this tool will do a screenshot i can load to a pc somehow ,it came with a usb cord so it may do that .


----------



## thomas1

Looks like it's a girl. Congrats, Brian!


----------



## Marshy

thomas1 said:


> Looks like it's a girl. Congrats, Brian!


Well it is a Stihl...


----------



## Trx250r180

Haters


----------



## Ron660

What's your 660 tuned to (rpms) milling? Mobil didn't burn that clean in the 660?


----------



## Trx250r180

I really dont know ,it was pretty thick carbon milling with h1r but had some grey deposits like ash,the mobil does not seem to leave the ash ,i have only used 6 pints of the mobil so far between 2 saws and the yard trimmers,if i was too rich on the milling saw i would think it would be washed clean ? Not built up so much,on the intake side the piston is washed in the one secton shaped like a triangle, the exhaust port was pretty clean ,it also has a stock muffler can with full baffle and a dual port cover ,that may ne why the carnon is cracking from heat build up ?


----------



## Andyshine77

Trx250r180 said:


> I really dont know ,it was pretty thick carbon milling with h1r but had some grey deposits like ash,the mobil does not seem to leave the ash ,i have only used 6 pints of the mobil so far between 2 saws and the yard trimmers,if i was too rich on the milling saw i would think it would be washed clean ? Not built up so much,on the intake side the piston is washed in the one secton shaped like a triangle, the exhaust port was pretty clean ,it also has a stock muffler can with full baffle and a dual port cover ,that may ne why the carnon is cracking from heat build up ?



In some of the pics the crown looks good, others not so much. In the oil test preformed on a small RC aviation engine, the results looked much the same with Mobil 1. However in normal use M1 seems to burn extremely clean. My thoughts are. 

1. Like you said the engine is breathing enough because of the restrictive muffler. 
2. Two the engine isn't getting hot enough to keep the piston crown clean, because the tuning is a tad rich. 
3. The fuel mix is simply not preforming well in this extreme application. 

I would try a different mix with the same tuning. I don't see anything that really indicates the engine was running hot, M1 may just solidify in that application.


----------



## Big_Wood

how many hours you think you got on that 660 milling brian? IIRC that saw has a raisman platt crank in it? i've had good luck with the hutzl cranks as well. used 4-5 of them now and all saws are still running being neglected like normal.


----------



## Trx250r180

Andyshine77 said:


> In some of the pics the crown looks good, others not so much. In the oil test preformed on a small RC aviation engine, the results looked much the same with Mobil 1. However in normal use M1 seems to burn extremely clean. My thoughts are.
> 
> 1. Like you said the engine is breathing enough because of the restrictive muffler.
> 2. Two the engine isn't getting hot enough to keep the piston crown clean, because the tuning is a tad rich.
> 3. The fuel mix is simply not preforming well in this extreme application.
> 
> I would try a different mix with the same tuning. I don't see anything that really indicates the engine was running hot, M1 may just solidify in that application.



I need to figure out how to take a screenshot with that tool and transfer to a pc ,the picture of a picture makes the black carbon look white ,on the head the whole dome chamber was black carbon of what i could see ,just the machines squishband was clean ,in the hybrids with 3 ports on the mufflers the piston has very little buildup ,the first hybrid has about 180 psi ,modded by a guy in canada ,the squishband has more carbon than on the saw with 230 psi done in tenn., extra transfers were carved on the intake side of that saw also ,and can see the tips of them in the images the whole outside edge of the piston on that saw was real clean where the whole squishband is ,middle of the piston is all carboned like normal
On the milling 660 it has a lot of hours with h1r ,and the exhaust had black spooge dripping from the seams of the muffler with that oil ,i am wondering if that is previous buildup and the new oil is staring to soften it up making the cracks ? it could be the choked up muffler also ,but it keeps the noise down considerably ,i may have to put the modded muffler on for a bit to see if too choked up .i also have a case of sabre to use up that is formulated for saws not dirtbikes .so i will see how this changes things on the crown .The camera is nice because you only have to pull the spark plug and the decomp hole or muffler cover to view the piston .



westcoaster90 said:


> how many hours you think you got on that 660 milling brian? IIRC that saw has a raisman platt crank in it? i've had good luck with the hutzl cranks as well. used 4-5 of them now and all saws are still running being neglected like normal.



I really do not know at this point Shane ,I have lost track ,but the aftermarket Raismin crank has at least 3 times the hours the oem stihl one had on it before it snapped off at the clutch .I am thinking about an hour meter tach combo to put on the mill saw so can watch it better .


----------



## Marshy

One possibility for the piston being clean where the squish band is is because the piston is able to effectively transfer its heat to the cylinder head and carbon gets washed off the cooler parts of the piston like the spots near the trasnfer ports. There's probably other reasons but that is my educated guess as to the main contributor.


----------



## Trx250r180

Andyshine77 said:


> In some of the pics the crown looks good, others not so much. In the oil test preformed on a small RC aviation engine, the results looked much the same with Mobil 1. However in normal use M1 seems to burn extremely clean.



I will add the mobil is one of the least offensive smelling oils i have ran ,dumonde was a little less smell but not much ,working over my post hole drill the mobil does not make me sick like some other oils ,not that any exhaust should be breathed in ,but it happens .


----------



## blsnelling

I suspect you see more carbon on the milling 660 due to higher temps causing the carbon to cake up on the crown. I also suspect that's why it's cracked. I would at a minimum open up the cage, if not completely remove it. I understand you want to keep the noise down, but that heat needs to get out.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> I suspect you see more carbon on the milling 660 due to higher temps causing the carbon to cake up on the crown. I also suspect that's why it's cracked. I would at a minimum open up the cage, if not completely remove it. I understand you want to keep the noise down, but that heat needs to get out.


I can tell the 660 was ran at steady throttle. That glassy look is typical of that. Also all of the pics show overly rich tuning.


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> I suspect you see more carbon on the milling 660 due to higher temps causing the carbon to cake up on the crown. I also suspect that's why it's cracked. I would at a minimum open up the cage, if not completely remove it. I understand you want to keep the noise down, but that heat needs to get out.


I have 2 modded mufflers for it ,i guess will have to break out the stihl ear muffs ,one of Redbulls test mufflers i need to try out ,with modded baffle and extra side port ,and the one Randy gutted when built the saw .The gutted one gave me a headache after a while is why put the stock one on with dual front cover to let some heat out .


----------



## blsnelling

Go with a gutted body and a single large opening.


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> I can tell the 660 was ran at steady throttle. That glassy look is typical of that. Also all of the pics show overly rich tuning.


I have it set to clear up ripping with a 32 inch bar ,it 4 strokes bad when back out of the cut ,as hard as the constant load is i feel safer a little rich on the mill . Loaded the engine pulls pretty smooth


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> I have it set to clear up ripping with a 32 inch bar ,it 4 strokes bad when back out of the cut ,as hard as the constant load is i feel safer a little rich on the mill . Loaded the engine pulls pretty smooth


Wasn't an indictment, but rather an observation. And only brought up because tuning greatly effects deposits and piston appearance.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> I have 2 modded mufflers for it ,i guess will have to break out the stihl ear muffs ,one of Redbulls test mufflers i need to try out ,with modded baffle and extra side port ,and the one Randy gutted when built the saw .The gutted one gave me a headache after a while is why put the stock one on with dual front cover to let some heat out .


I personally prefer Randy's modded muffler (factory DP originally) on my 660. It breaths really well.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Wasn't an indictment, but rather an observation. And only brought up because tuning greatly effects deposits and piston appearance.



I wonder why my ported 660 is really clean inside although I tune a little rich. Well 13400-13600 isn't that rich in my book if it cleans up in the cut. I took this pic today. Last several tanks were 93 non-E and using only Motul 800 off-road at 32:1.


----------



## Ron660




----------



## Ron660




----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I wonder why my ported 660 is really clean inside although I tune a little rich. Well 13400-13600 isn't that rich in my book if it cleans up in the cut. I took this pic today. Last several tanks were 93 non-E and using only Motul 800 off-road at 32:1.
> View attachment 465771


800 has difficulty reaching full combustion when ran rich. Your saw is a great example.


----------



## bwalker

This MS 260 has been ran since new on Motul 800. I bought it nib this summer. It's been tuned spot on and this is a good example of what the muffler should look like and what the exhaust port looks like when not washed by raw fuel.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> 800 has difficulty full combustion when ran rich. Your saw is a great example.


I would say it's the excellent detergent/cleaning additives. The current tune cleans up well under load especially noodling. It definitely sounds better noodling. That puts a good load on it.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> This MS 260 has been ran since new on Motul 800. I bought it nib this summer. It's been tuned spot on and this is a good example of what the muffler should look like and what the exhaust port looks like when not washed by raw fuel.View attachment 465830
> View attachment 465831


My ported 036 looks extremely clean also. I could lean-it-out more and see what happens. I still think higher compression ported saws benefit using racing (higher viscosity) oils.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I would say it's the excellent detergent/cleaning additives. The current tune cleans up well under load especially noodling. It definitely sounds better noodling. That puts a good load on it.


See my pics. It's fuel washing the port and piston clean and gunking up the muffler as a result.
Four stroking is so rich the motor is drowning in its own fuel. Because it cleans up under load doesn't mean your not rich.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> My ported 036 looks extremely clean also. I could lean-it-out more and see what happens. I still think higher compression ported saws benefit using racing (higher viscosity) oils.


Racing oils are not universally higher in viscosity. They really run the range.


----------



## KG441c

Im liking hp2 so far as good as any oil Ive used


----------



## mdavlee

With 800 in saws that don't mill it looked like Ron660 piston and muffler. Milling with it it burns completely. Granted when I used a liter of the stuff up it was summer time and aim the 90s. The bar oil would boil and I couldn't touch any of the area around the front of the saw without gloves.


----------



## bwalker

Anyone have an up to date msds for hp2?


----------



## KenJax Tree

KG441c said:


> Im liking hp2 so far as good as any oil Ive used


I've been saying that for 6 months[emoji1]


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> Anyone have an up to date msds for hp2?


I couldnt even find specs


----------



## bwalker

I think it's a PIB blend..


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> I've been saying that for 6 months[emoji1]


I had never ran it in a saw Chris but my YZ250 ingested a steady diet of it with excellent results


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> See my pics. It's fuel washing the port and piston clean and gunking up the muffler as a result.
> Four stroking is so rich the motor is drowning in its own fuel. Because it cleans up under load doesn't mean your not rich.


Oil is cheaper than rebuilding a top end. I doubt my 660 would like tuned any higher especially risking damage tuned to lean. I've tuned it over 14400 and still 4-stroking but no way I'll use that as a work saw tune.


----------



## blsnelling

Ron660 said:


> Oil is cheaper than rebuilding a top end. I doubt my 660 would like tuned any higher especially risking damage tuned to lean. I've tuned it over 14400 and still 4-stroking but no way I'll use that as a work saw tune.


If it's 4-stroking when hot and not under load, then it's not lean.


----------



## KG441c

If a fellow wants a clean engine internally theres nothin wrong with being rich other than hurting performance some I would think?


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> If it's 4-stroking when hot and not under load, then it's not lean.


Brad what would u tune a ported 660 to cut wood 25" and under?


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> If it's 4-stroking when hot and not under load, then it's not lean.


Right.. nor even close to it.


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> Brad what would u tune a ported 660 to cut wood 25" and under?


I can't give you an answer without running the saw. It's all by ear and each saw is different.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I can tell the 660 was ran at steady throttle. That glassy look is typical of that. Also all of the pics show overly rich tuning.


I'm not being a smarta$$ but you're contradicting yourself. You told trx250 his "buildup" was due to running rich then you told me my 660 was clean because I was tuned "to rich ".


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> If a fellow wants a clean engine internally theres nothin wrong with being rich other than hurting performance some I would think?


Might actually lead to more ring wear given that excess fuel washes the cylinder as well...not to mention less power, more emmissions and worse fuel consumption. There is simply no good reason to run a saw rich like this.
This is exactly why Autotune and Mtronic are a good thing IMO.


----------



## KG441c

blsnelling said:


> I can't give you an answer without running the saw. It's all by ear and each saw is different.


13200 is surely way on the safe side for 25" firewood cutting?


----------



## blsnelling

KG441c said:


> 13200 is surely way on the safe side for 25" firewood cutting?


I would certainly think so. A stock saw with a muffler mod should do that.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm not being a smarta$$ but you're contradicting yourself. You told trx250 his "buildup" was due to running rich then you told me my 660 was clean because I was tuned "to rich ".


Not at all. I never mentioned deposits, just the glassy appearance being due to running full throttle. I also mentioned he was rich based on the plug and wash pattern.
I can tell your rich based on your soggy muffler, description of how you tuned it and the washed clean exhaust port.


----------



## KG441c

I can say Ive seen Ronnies 660 internally through the muffler housing and he didnt have a scratch on cylinder or piston. Look like it just rolled off the factory line


----------



## Trx250r180

Ron660 said:


> I'm not being a smarta$$ but you're contradicting yourself. You told trx250 his "buildup" was due to running rich then you told me my 660 was clean because I was tuned "to rich ".


How is your plug color compared to my saws ? Tan colored or more black ?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> I can say Ive seen Ronnies 660 internally through the muffler housing and he didnt have a scratch on cylinder or piston. Look like it just rolled off the factory line


That tells you he runs clean air filters and not much else.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> I never mentioned deposits, just the glassy appearance. I mentioned he was rich based on the plug and wash pattern.
> I can tell your rich based on your soggy muffler, description of how you tuned it and the washed clean exhaust port.


This a pic I took tonight of my 036. It was rich and Keith tuned it leaner. This was the original muffler and looked like this when I got it. Piston and rings are new. I've had it nearly two years and used the same mix as my 660.


----------



## Ron660




----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> That tells you he runs clean air filters and not much else.


Now come on!! Lol!! If u run a saw lean u will see some scratches ?? Dont make me go to the shop and take pics of some of my mistake cylinders!!


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 465895
> 
> This a pic I took tonight of my 036. It was rich and Keith tuned it leaner. This was the original muffler and looked like this when I got it. Piston and rings are new. I've had it nearly two years and used the same mix as my 660.


Dang thats a nice lookin ported exhaust!!!???


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 465897


Need to put the exhaust bolt back in it though ole buddy


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Now come on!! Lol!! If u run a saw lean u will see some scratches ?? Dont make me go to the shop and take pics of some of my mistake cylinders!!


If it starts to seize, yes.. but running a saw pig rich because your paranoid about a seizure is ridiculous. 
Mtronic and Autotune are your friend..


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 465895
> 
> This a pic I took tonight of my 036. It was rich and Keith tuned it leaner. This was the original muffler and looked like this when I got it. Piston and rings are new. I've had it nearly two years and used the same mix as my 660.


I'm running the same mix and see my exhaust port.


----------



## Ron660




----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Might actually lead to more ring wear given that excess fuel washes the cylinder as well...not to mention less power, more emmissions and worse fuel consumption. There is simply no good reason to run a saw rich like this.
> This is exactly why Autotune and Mtronic are a good thing IMO.


I've never heard of a 661 mtronic go over 13600 on a tach WOT. That's were I'm tuned.


----------



## Ron660

Trx250r180 said:


> How is your plug color compared to my saws ? Tan colored or more black ?


Not sure but I'll take a pic. Good idea.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> That tells you he runs clean air filters and not much else.


I have several cords of wood in my back yard if you want a pic of that too. Same goes with several friends I've cut for.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> That tells you he runs clean air filters and not much else.


I run clean underwear too...lol


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I have several cords of wood in my back yard if you want a pic of that too. Same goes with several friends I've cut for.


That that proves what? I have 20 cord cut, split and stacked in my yard right now and another 5 down on my property blocked up. Big deal..


----------



## Ron660

660 plug. I'm definitely rich!


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 465946
> 
> 660 plug. I'm definitely rich!


Yep.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I've never heard of a 661 mtronic go over 13600 on a tach WOT. That's were I'm tuned.


You don't have a 661 though...


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

bwalker said:


> If it starts to seize, yes.. but running a saw pig rich because your paranoid about a seizure is ridiculous.
> Mtronic and Autotune are your friend..



I cant stand runnin pig rich saws , it takes more effort from me to keep them loaded and cuttin good..i dont see the advantage ?


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You don't have a 661 though...


I'm just repeating the WOT rpms from AS members I've asked that have them. Also, what I've read on AS. I'd like to hear from additional 661 owners of their experience.


----------



## bwalker

SAWMIKAZE said:


> I cant stand runnin pig rich saws , it takes more effort from me to keep them loaded and cuttin good..i dont see the advantage ?


Nothing but a disadvantage..


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I'm just repeating the WOT rpms from AS members I've asked that have them. Also, what I've read on AS. I'd like to hear from additional 661 owners of their experience.


And that pertains to your 660 how? My ms260 isn't lean at 14,600, but that doesn't stop knuckle heads from running them at 13000 rpm..


----------



## bwalker

BTW the 661 is rev limited I believe, so that 13,600 figure is meaningless as a measure of tuning.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> BTW the 661 is rev limited I believe, so that 13,600 figure is meaningless as a measure of tuning.


Plus it's a quad port?


----------



## bwalker

And Ron660, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to faster some thought by you on this subject.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Plus it's a quad port?


Doesn't it have a 1 into 4 port layout? Where the transfer port intakes are on the intake side of the jug?


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> Yep.


Although to be fair, idling before shutdown can make a plug look like that. 
Plug reading is of much less value than most think as it pertains to tuning.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> And Ron660, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to faster some thought by you on this subject.


No problem. I'm learning and appreciate knowledgeable facts.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Although to be fair, idling before shutdown can make a plug look like that.
> Plug reading is of much less value than most think as it pertains to tuning.


I always let it idle for a few minutes before turning it off......thinking it will assist in cooling.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> You don't have a 661 though...




But I just got this one in. First Husky.


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 465959
> 
> But I just got this one in. First Husky.


Oh ya baby!! Your life is about to change now!!


----------



## Ron660

KG441c said:


> Oh ya baby!! Your life is about to change now!!


For the worse? Lol


----------



## KenJax Tree

Ron660 said:


> For the worse? Lol


You be the judge[emoji6]


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I always let it idle for a few minutes before turning it off......thinking it will assist in cooling.


This isn't a bad idea if only for preventing corrosion, which IMO you must be more aware of when using ester oils.


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> View attachment 465959
> 
> But I just got this one in. First Husky.


Never played with the xtorque version but the older version was about a perfect falling saw.


----------



## KG441c

KenJax Tree said:


> You be the judge[emoji6]


Lol! He will realize whats happened after he pins the hammer on it!!lol!!


----------



## KG441c

Ron660 said:


> For the worse? Lol


U will see


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Never played with the xtorque version but the older version was about a perfect falling saw.


I decided to go with a 372 for a lighter firewood saw as opposed to my 660. I'll keep the 660 around for really big stuff. I have a Husky 20" techlite .058 bar I'll try on the 372. I'm considering a 24"cannon light for it when they're available.


----------



## Moparmyway

Someone told me you fellas need somtin about 661 and 066 .............. both of mine be worked 

I will say that opening the exhaust more on my ported 066 caused the tune to get up higher in the wood for max power.
WOT unloaded is pig fat burbling rich, she cleans up with 1/3 of the bar cutting (36" .404) .......... and was making the most RPM's in the cut tuned to 13,200-13,300 ............................ but now with a toilet flange for exhaust outlet, she is holding higher RPM in the cut tuned at 13,800.

I do need more time to dial her in, but I believe that a saw should be tuned in the cut for max RPM (while cutting), so long as you 4 stroke out of the wood, I dont care how much she burbles WOT unloaded, I only care about max power in the cut


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> I decided to go with a 372 for a lighter firewood saw as opposed to my 660. I'll keep the 660 around for really big stuff. I have a Husky 20" techlite .058 bar I'll try on the 372. I'm considering a 24"cannon light for it when they're available.


A 20" bar and a 372 are like peas and carrots.


----------



## porsche965

My 661s run on the fast tach 13,200 +- 

Sending the new 390XPW out for porting. 
Limiter holds that dog to 12,700. That will change for sure.


----------



## Moparmyway

porsche965 said:


> My 661s run on the fast tach 13,200 +-
> 
> Sending the new 390XPW out for porting.
> Limiter holds that dog to 12,700. That will change for sure.


Mine hits 14,000 but hangs around the 13,600 mark .................Hardline is hardwired

She pulls like an ape in the cut


----------



## porsche965

The XTORQ being ported will still four stroke alot at 14,200. Wearing a 25" bar is a strong 70cc blocking saw.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Someone told me you fellas need somtin about 661 and 066 .............. both of mine be worked
> 
> I will say that opening the exhaust more on my ported 066 caused the tune to get up higher in the wood for max power.
> WOT unloaded is pig fat burbling rich, she cleans up with 1/3 of the bar cutting (36" .404) .......... and was making the most RPM's in the cut tuned to 13,200-13,300 ............................ but now with a toilet flange for exhaust outlet, she is holding higher RPM in the cut tuned at 13,800.
> 
> I do need more time to dial her in, but I believe that a saw should be tuned in the cut for max RPM (while cutting), so long as you 4 stroke out of the wood, I dont care how much she burbles WOT unloaded, I only care about max power in the cut


Its been my expiereance that the fastest cut times are made when the saw either barely fourstrokes or is tuned just past fourstroking with no load full throttle. Of course this changes with wood size and density aka load, but you get the picture.
One other thibg. Husky saws have a different pitch to my severely damaged ears and it's hard to hear them four stroke even when they are quit rich. However, I have 90% hearing loss in my left ear and the right is far from good


----------



## porsche965

661s do pull very hard and seem to refuse to give up rpms like a comparable sized saw.


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> Its been my expiereance that the fastest cut times are made when the saw either barely fourstrokes or is tuned just past fourstroking with no load full throttle. Of course this changes with wood size and density aka load, but you get the picture.
> One other thibg. Husky saws have a different pitch to my severely damaged ears and it's hard to hear them four stroke even when they are quit rich. However, I have 90% hearing loss in my left ear and the right is far from good


I know on this 066, and my 044 (both ported) that just 4 stroking out of the wood is a recipe for low RPM's in the cut. I run a 32" on the 044 and the 36" on the 066 ...................... I have tuned richer while cutting and the RPM's came up (saw on the tach and heard with my half deaf ears)

Now, when I put a 20" on the 066, I saw what you observed ................. close to a slight 4 stroke out of the wood made for the fastest cut in the wood


----------



## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> 661s do pull very hard and seem to refuse to give up rpms like a comparable sized saw.


Really no load rpm is just an extremely crude, ham fisted way to tune. It's the rpms held in the cut that matter.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> I know on this 066, and my 044 (both ported) that just 4 stroking out of the wood is a recipe for low RPM's in the cut. I run a 32" on the 044 and the 36" on the 066 ...................... I have tuned richer while cutting and the RPM's came up (saw on the tach and heard with my half deaf ears)
> 
> Now, when I put a 20" on the 066, I saw what you observed ................. close to a slight 4 stroke out of the wood made for the fastest cut in the wood


I never run anything longer than a 24" Goes back to the load thing I mentioned previously.
Given the stumping you do and the density of hardwood stumps what you say makes sense to me.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Never played with the xtorque version but the older version was about a perfect falling saw.


Good eye. I just pulled the 372 out of the box again and it is a x-torq model. I thought I had a 372xp. So is it a 70 or 75cc engine?


----------



## Moparmyway

bwalker said:


> I never run anything longer than a 24" Goes back to the load thing I mentioned previously.


Yup !!
I can easily see that

Now ............... have you had a chance to run a good square filed chain yet ?


----------



## bwalker

I believe it's a 71cc saw. The 75cc version was not an x torque


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> Yup !!
> I can easily see that
> 
> Now ............... have you had a chance to run a good square filed chain yet ?


I have not. Been deer hunting in my free time, but that closed yesterday. Traveling for work through the weekend, but I will run it on Sunday.


----------



## redbull660

porsche965 said:


> 661s do pull very hard and seem to refuse to give up rpms like a comparable sized saw.



oak, 41" bar, somewhat dull (dull on purpose...trying to see how hot I can get the bar tip) full skip .404 square grd. chain. and yes I'm running 32:1 hp2  

(this saw is just muff modded...TM is still working on the other 661s)


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> Never played with the xtorque version but the older version was about a perfect falling saw.


----------



## Ron660

West coast model


----------



## Ron660

Came with some goodies


----------



## one.man.band

thread still seems to be revolving about tuning a motor to a specific brand of oil.........not my bag.

getting a motor that is only about 20% thermally efficient at best, blowing raw fuel and oil mist out every stroke to optimize some ideal piston crown color or pattern is next to impossible. these motors just cannot generate enough internal heat, probably even if they had a high output ignition. 

the piston burn patterns shown don't look anything close to ideal, and doubt they could be adjusted to anything close to it without burning the motor up, regardless of load.

good luck with this thread.


----------



## Moparmyway

one.man.band said:


> thread still seems to be revolving about tuning a motor to a specific brand of oil.........
> 
> the piston burn patterns shown don't look anything close to ideal, .



What ?
What ?


----------



## KG441c

Moparmyway said:


> What ?
> What ?


Lol! That looks great Mopar! Mtronics is tuning several times a second isnt it


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> thread still seems to be revolving about tuning a motor to a specific brand of oil.........not my bag.
> 
> getting a motor that is only about 20% thermally efficient at best, blowing raw fuel and oil mist out every stroke to optimize some ideal piston crown color or pattern is next to impossible. these motors just cannot generate enough internal heat, probably even if they had a high output ignition.
> 
> the piston burn patterns shown don't look anything close to ideal, and doubt they could be adjusted to anything close to it without burning the motor up, regardless of load.
> 
> good luck with this thread.


Tuning a motor properly isn't impossible at all. And no need to blow anything up..
Like I said earlier. Mtronic and Autotune are good thing as many just can't grasp proper tune.


----------



## bwalker

Moparmyway said:


> What ?
> What ?


Can be done pretty easily with screws too.


----------



## Moparmyway

KG441c said:


> Lol! That looks great Mopar! Mtronics is tuning several times a second isnt it


From what I understand and see, it tunes every rotation


----------



## mdavlee

bwalker said:


> Tuning a motor properly isn't impossible at all. And no need to blow anything up..
> Like I said earlier. Mtronic and Autotune are good thing as many just can't grasp proper tune.


The 576 AT I ported was pig rich with short bars. Anything under a 28" I had to run an 8 pin or really push on it to get it to quit 4 stroking in the wood.


----------



## bwalker

mdavlee said:


> The 576 AT I ported was pig rich with short bars. Anything under a 28" I had to run an 8 pin or really push on it to get it to quit 4 stroking in the wood.


Not sure about the 576, but my 562 runs spot on all the time. And that's using from 16" to 24" bars which is on the extreme side of what a 60cc saw can do in our wood.
Only thing I know about the 576 is that it never gained ecceptance by loggers around here.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> The 576 AT I ported was pig rich with short bars. Anything under a 28" I had to run an 8 pin or really push on it to get it to quit 4 stroking in the wood.


 Mike, think I should run an 8-pin or 7-pin on a ported 372? I'll be using a 20-24" bar on hardwoods mostly.


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> Depends on chain. I usually stick with a 7 for a 372.


 For now all I have is Oregon LGX chain. Thanks


----------



## Ron660

mdavlee said:


> I meant how aggressive and low of rakers. I like Oregon better than stihl now. The stihl QC IS hit and miss it seems. Going to be using a lot of stihl 404 since I got a bunch from redbull.


 Nothing aggressive for now. Not really sure of the best angles for round filing. I've been practicing square filing on the 660 chains.


----------



## Trx250r180

figured out the screenshots on the camera scope thing 

ms461


----------



## Trx250r180

440 hybrid ,can see the oil droplets on the cylinder


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> 440 hybrid ,can see the oil droplets on the cylinder
> View attachment 466148
> View attachment 466149
> View attachment 466150
> View attachment 466151
> View attachment 466152
> View attachment 466153
> View attachment 466154


Better pics. Your trapping alot of mixture in the squish area it would appear. A properly machined head seeks to eliminate this, but with a saw your options are limited.


----------



## KG441c

mdavlee said:


> I meant how aggressive and low of rakers. I like Oregon better than stihl now. The stihl QC IS hit and miss it seems. Going to be using a lot of stihl 404 since I got a bunch from redbull.


Bought me several more loops 404 from him also


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Better pics. Your trapping alot of mixture in the squish area it would appear. A properly machined head seeks to eliminate this, but with a saw your options are limited.


The 461 in first set of images with the quad ports seems more carboned over in the squish area ,it has a machined head as well ,wonder if the extra finger transfers have anything to do with the wash on the squish band of the hybrid ?This saw revs higher than my others do .My other hybrid looks closer to what your 260 piston looks like .but a little less wash by the transfers


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> The 461 in first set of images with the quad ports seems more carboned over in the squish area ,it has a machined head as well ,wonder if the extra finger transfers have anything to do with the wash on the squish band of the hybrid ?This saw revs higher than my others do .My other hybrid looks closer to what your 260 piston looks like .but a little less wash by the transfers


Even though your head is machined the squish angle is more or less flat, correct?


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Even though your head is machined the squish angle is more or less flat, correct?


Yes this one is machined ,my other hybrid has an untouched head (round chamber not D shaped )

,just some port and piston mods ,the squishband is extra wide on this jug for some reason also


----------



## bwalker

A squish band like that basicly doesn't function as a squish band. In other words there is no pinching or pushing mixture from the outside of the cylinder inwards. The result is alot of unburnt mixture at the edges.


----------



## Moparmyway

What should a properly machined squish band look like ?

Isn't it supposed to be tapered toward the center of the chamber?


----------



## bwalker

That would depend on what your goals are, but the band should actually be at an angle in relation to the piston, not parallel as in most saws. The idea being to create turbulence to aid combustion and to squeeze mixture toward the center of the combustion chamber.


----------



## Trx250r180

Here is a stock meteor jug off a ms460 ,is this closer to an ideal band ?


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Here is a stock meteor jug off a ms460 ,is this closer to an ideal band ?
> View attachment 466197


No, because the angle is flat, although the combustion chamber has a better shape.


----------



## Trx250r180

Here is my other hybrid with the uncut squish ,it is a round band ,narrower than the meteor . Can see some transfer wash on this saw .


----------



## Ron660

If properly tuned, should a saw stop 4-stroking as soon as its under load or say 1/4 into the wood? I set mine to stop 4-stroking as soon as it enters the wood....under load.


----------



## redbull660

Ron660 said:


> If properly tuned, should a saw stop 4-stroking as soon as its under load or say 1/4 into the wood? I set mine to stop 4-stroking as soon as it enters the wood....under load.



what about tuning for time?

I spent a lot of time messing with the MM084 and TM880. In the end I settled at 12,500 on the 36" bar. I got a lot of comments that they sounded too rich. But that is where they cut the best. I tried 12k, 12.2k, 12.5k, 12.7k, 13k. 12.5k was the best times.

Then what about the 361 oil test? For a stock saw I tuned each ratio to the called for idle (think it was like 2800) and then top end for the called for 14,000 wot. I'm sure the best ratio would be different for a different oil. Probably closer to 32 or 40:1.

But look at the times and temps. The fastest times are right around where the coolest temps are. Same with the 660 test (see attached).

Seems to me it would be a lot easier to just figure the fastest cuts for each bar and note the RPM used. Then just tune to that RPM. 

Obviously double check make sure by ear your not to lean...seems very unlikely. 

Thoughts on this approach?


----------



## Trx250r180

redbull660 said:


> what about tuning for time?
> 
> I spent a lot of time messing with the MM084 and TM880. In the end I settled at 12,500 on the 36" bar. I got a lot of comments that they sounded too rich. But that is where they cut the best. I tried 12k, 12.2k, 12.5k, 12.7k, 13k. 12.5k was the best times.
> 
> Then what about the 361 oil test? For a stock saw I tuned each ratio to the called for idle (think it was like 2800) and then top end for the called for 14,000 wot. I'm sure the best ratio would be different for a different oil. Probably closer to 32 or 40:1.
> 
> But look at the times and temps. The fastest times are right around where the coolest temps are. Same with the 660 test (see attached).
> 
> Seems to me it would be a lot easier to just figure the fastest cuts for each bar and note the RPM used. Then just tune to that RPM.
> 
> Obviously double check make sure by ear your not to lean...seems very unlikely.
> 
> Thoughts on this approach?


My saws seem to pull better a tad rich with the 32 inch bars ,kind of helps em chug along some over some rpm loss .


----------



## weedkilla

redbull660 said:


> what about tuning for time?
> 
> I spent a lot of time messing with the MM084 and TM880. In the end I settled at 12,500 on the 36" bar. I got a lot of comments that they sounded too rich. But that is where they cut the best. I tried 12k, 12.2k, 12.5k, 12.7k, 13k. 12.5k was the best times.
> 
> Then what about the 361 oil test? For a stock saw I tuned each ratio to the called for idle (think it was like 2800) and then top end for the called for 14,000 wot. I'm sure the best ratio would be different for a different oil. Probably closer to 32 or 40:1.
> 
> But look at the times and temps. The fastest times are right around where the coolest temps are. Same with the 660 test (see attached).
> 
> Seems to me it would be a lot easier to just figure the fastest cuts for each bar and note the RPM used. Then just tune to that RPM.
> 
> Obviously double check make sure by ear your not to lean...seems very unlikely.
> 
> Thoughts on this approach?


Essentially that's how you tune on a dyno. You are tuning for max power in the band of revs that you cut in. Id say that's perfect. 
The fact that you are using a simplistic temp measurement to back it up is great. I only say simplistic, in that it's not reading exhaust gas temp before the muffler with a high sample rate. 
The same approach could be used to optimise ignition timing. 
You still need to make sure you don't introduce a problem at other points in the power band - like stumbling as you hit the throttle for instance - but you have a baseline that you don't want to go leaner, or more advanced.


----------



## Ron660

True, the majority of the fastest times are the cooler temps.


----------



## Ron660

My last timed tests with my 660 I considered retesting using different tach readings such as 13200, 13500, and 13800 just to see what would happen. Size of wood would definitely matter.


----------



## weedkilla

If I ever build a Chainsaw dyno, the first thing I'll do is adjust the high screw while it's loaded. I try to do it in a log, but I'm not even as accurate as redbull's tined cuts. I just go on feel, and check its 4-stroking when I lift.


----------



## one.man.band

base my opinions on reference material, all of it is not found here. right/wrong/whatever.

references: eric gorr has good info on reading piston burn patterns using cht and egt temps; blair, reher-morrison, race car engineering on chamber/wet flow design characteristics; efficiency % was calculated by me from published bsfc and hp/tq data; motor heat data from blair.

.....the egt's are nowhere near those of any kind of performance motor. bsfc's are pig rich. if you care about evening out transfer flow, maybe burn patterns will help you.

......and the brake dyno will show you nothing other than what was discussed 100's pages back...........the proper tune varied with load.

and i don't see anything wrong with using the 4-ST method of tuning saw motors, no matter what anyone says. safe tune. these motors are what they are.

edit. spelling


----------



## bwalker

The fourstrokes method is pretty subjective and in many cases results in a overly rich saw..
All moot as future saws will not have screw adjust carbs.


----------



## one.man.band

bwalker said:


> The fourstrokes method is pretty subjective and in many cases results in a overly rich saw..
> All moot as future saws will not have screw adjust carbs.



all good.

here are some ways these zama electric screwdrivers work: (may not be what you think). there are many variations of the same theme.

donut magnet on diaphragm or air bleed types.

https://www.google.com/patents/US7264230
https://www.google.com/patents/US6581916
https://www.google.com/patents/US6702261
https://www.google.com/patents/US20090145399

ingenious inventions they are.

goes good with a beer. warsteiner oktoberfest hits the spot. maybe the old milwaukee of germany for all i know. but tastes fine.


----------



## Ron660

bwalker said:


> The fourstrokes method is pretty subjective and in many cases results in a overly rich saw..
> All moot as future saws will not have screw adjust carbs.


 Fuel injection would be better...lol


----------



## bwalker

Ron660 said:


> Fuel injection would be better...lol


If two strokes are to survive it will have to be direct fuel injection and not some half azzed attempt like Stihl did with that cut off saw.


----------



## KG441c

bwalker said:


> If two strokes are to survive it will have to be direct fuel injection and not some half azzed attempt like Stihl did with that cut off saw.


Wonder if they have anything in the works?


----------



## bwalker

KG441c said:


> Wonder if they have anything in the works?


Its already been done for years with different applications. Would just need to be scaled down to fit a saw. Bombardier etch system is pretty dam simple in that the injector is a simple voice coil.


----------



## redbull660

had a member PM me a question. I think my reply is applicable to the thread so I am posting it.

"what would you burn the HP2 at in stock saws ?..does it burn ok at heavier ratios ?" 

----------------------------------------------------
my reply:

This is 32:1 on a brand new 661 after 3 tanks. (see attached pix)

guess I'm not sure if ratio is dependent upon saw size or not. I know a guy who swears that his 362 and his 661 like different ratios. He says the 362 liked a little bit less oil than the 661. 

The main thing in the test, was to find an oil that stood out from the pack. Then guys can argue about what ratio to run in their saws...the irony of that, is like stated above I think it might vary from saw to saw. Maybe it's the power and displacement of the saw? The power range/band of the saw? I dunno. I know that the 660 liked h1r 40:1 best and the 361 liked 45:1 h1r best. (both stock saws) But it's h1r, so there is that cloud of suspicion hanging overhead that it burns weird. I'd admit I have the same suspicion. I would like to do a test to verify that some other oil does the same thing in two different size saws....and that is another reason I liked the Hp2, because it ran well at 32:1, ran well at 40:1, it ran well at 45:1. 50:1 I didn't care for, but it wasn't THAT bad.


All that said, I think that one could spend a lot of time thinking about it and talking about it. Easier to just do it.

Mix up some 40:1. Mix up some 32:1 maybe a gallon of each or something. Run em each and see what ya think. And I'd really like to know what you find.


----------



## KG441c

The only thing ive seen yet for hp2 in my saws is that it smokes a bit off idle or loads up alil but that could be me running my saws alil rich on the low speed to bring them back to idle quicker. My 440 is tuned at 14900 running 87efree and hp2 32to1 and still 4 stroking and I shut it off at wot. Pulled the muffler cover and its semi wet but not soaking wet. Getting closer to that tune Bwalker keeps talking about that has a more complete combustion. So far the hp2 lubricates well and is burning off in the topend. With a good load I believe she will be spot on


----------



## KG441c

Im looking for complete combustion in an oil and not a saturated system when looking through the exhaust but hp2 will give u that if u tune that way


----------



## bwalker

one.man.band said:


> all good.
> 
> here are some ways these zama electric screwdrivers work: (may not be what you think). there are many variations of the same theme.
> 
> donut magnet on diaphragm or air bleed types.
> 
> https://www.google.com/patents/US7264230
> https://www.google.com/patents/US6581916
> https://www.google.com/patents/US6702261
> https://www.google.com/patents/US20090145399
> 
> ingenious inventions they are.
> 
> goes good with a beer. warsteiner oktoberfest hits the spot. maybe the old milwaukee of germany for all i know. but tastes fine.


Before snowmobiles went with transfer port or direct injection they used simular methods to create temperature and altitude compensating carbs. Snowmobilers largely couldnt wrap there mind around tuning a carb either...


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> had a member PM me a question. I think my reply is applicable to the thread so I am posting it.
> 
> "what would you burn the HP2 at in stock saws ?..does it burn ok at heavier ratios ?"
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> my reply:
> 
> This is 32:1 on a brand new 661 after 3 tanks. (see attached pix)
> 
> guess I'm not sure if ratio is dependent upon saw size or not. I know a guy who swears that his 362 and his 661 like different ratios. He says the 362 liked a little bit less oil than the 661.
> 
> The main thing in the test, was to find an oil that stood out from the pack. Then guys can argue about what ratio to run in their saws...the irony of that, is like stated above I think it might vary from saw to saw. Maybe it's the power and displacement of the saw? The power range/band of the saw? I dunno. I know that the 660 liked h1r 40:1 best and the 361 liked 45:1 h1r best. (both stock saws) But it's h1r, so there is that cloud of suspicion hanging overhead that it burns weird. I'd admit I have the same suspicion. I would like to do a test to verify that some other oil does the same thing in two different size saws....and that is another reason I liked the Hp2, because it ran well at 32:1, ran well at 40:1, it ran well at 45:1. 50:1 I didn't care for, but it wasn't THAT bad.
> 
> 
> All that said, I think that one could spend a lot of time thinking about it and talking about it. Easier to just do it.
> 
> Mix up some 40:1. Mix up some 32:1 maybe a gallon of each or something. Run em each and see what ya think. And I'd really like to know what you find.


2r ran well across the range also, correct?


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> Before snowmobiles went with transfer port or direct injection they used simular methods to create temperature and altitude compensating carbs. Snowmobilers largely couldnt wrap there mind around tuning a carb either...






bwalker said:


> If two strokes are to survive it will have to be direct fuel injection and not some half azzed attempt like Stihl did with that cut off saw.


Cant unless there is an oil injection system for the bearings as well. Polaris snowmobiles is not manufacturing stock snowmobiles that have such technology.


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Cant unless there is an oil injection system for the bearings as well. Polaris snowmobiles is not manufacturing stock snowmobiles that have such technology.


True. Easy to do.


----------



## bwalker

bwalker said:


> True. Easy to do.


Polaris uses transfer port injection...inferior to Ski doo's true Di system.


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> Polaris uses transfer port injection...inferior to Ski doo's true Di system.


Inferior even though polaris has higher HP?


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Inferior even though polaris has higher HP?


Wont meet future emmissions standards.
Doo had a similar system a decade ago.


----------



## Marshy

bwalker said:


> Wont meet future emmissions standards.
> Doo had a similar system a decade ago.


Is that what you think? You need to get caught up on the new technology.


----------



## huskihl

Marshy said:


> Is that what you think? You need to get caught up on the new technology.


Interesting. I had him figured for a ditch pickle


----------



## bwalker

Marshy said:


> Is that what you think? You need to get caught up on the new technology.


I'm quit up to date.. if Doo didn't have the patents tied up Polaris would be using it.


----------



## redbull660

after about 1.5 gallons of gas mixed with Mobil 1 2t racing (red colored) 32:1 

this muffler has been used on other 661s I have so the inside really can't show. But the cover was pretty clean.













spark plug













Jug - the brown is not build up, it's oil that can be wiped away. The jug is very very clean. 

















Tree Monkey photo bombing my picture! 









Piston and crank - plenty of oil on the skirts. Good coating on the crank etc. Clean. Oil puddling inside those trox heads.


----------



## bwalker

redbull660 said:


> after about 1.5 gallons of gas mixed with Mobil 1 2t racing (red colored) 32:1
> 
> this muffler has been used on other 661s I have so the inside really can't show. But the cover was pretty clean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spark plug
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jug - the brown is not build up, it's oil that can be wiped away. The jug is very very clean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tree Monkey photo bombing my picture!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piston and crank - plenty of oil on the skirts. Good coating on the crank etc. Clean. Oil puddling inside those trox heads.


Sadly Mobil racing 2T/MX2T was discontinued.


----------



## svk

bwalker said:


> Sadly Mobil racing 2T/MX2T was discontinued.


Didn't Brian buy out their entire back stock?


----------



## Stihlman441

redbull660 said:


> after about 1.5 gallons of gas mixed with Mobil 1 2t racing (red colored) 32:1
> 
> this muffler has been used on other 661s I have so the inside really can't show. But the cover was pretty clean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spark plug
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jug - the brown is not build up, it's oil that can be wiped away. The jug is very very clean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tree Monkey photo bombing my picture!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piston and crank - plenty of oil on the skirts. Good coating on the crank etc. Clean. Oil puddling inside those trox heads.


 
Theres nothing wrong with that Mobil1 T2 oil i used it for about 8 years but it got to hard to get and expensive over here.
Love the smell as well


----------



## Cycledude

Do you ever wonder why Stihl, Husqvarna,Echo and a bunch of other chainsaw manufacturers all recommend 50-1 ?


----------



## svk

Cycledude said:


> Do you ever wonder why Stihl, Husqvarna,Echo and a bunch of other chainsaw manufacturers all recommend 50-1 ?


Emissions. Is that a trick question?


----------



## Cycledude

svk said:


> Emissions. Is that a trick question?



I think they were recommending 50-1 long before epa ever became a serious chainsaw issue, my Husqvarna 61 is about 35 years old and 50-1 is all I've ever used in any of my saws.


----------



## svk

Cycledude said:


> I think they were recommending 50-1 long before epa ever became a serious chainsaw issue, my Husqvarna 61 is about 35 years old and 50-1 is all I've ever used in any of my saws.


I guess I don't know when epa started worrying about emissions on small engines, obviously they were into cars by the mid 70's. I know my 1991 model 41 was recommended to use 50:1

Saws seem very happy at the 40-42:1 ratio although low revving HO saws could probably last indefinitely on somewhat less.


----------



## zogger

Cycledude said:


> Do you ever wonder why Stihl, Husqvarna,Echo and a bunch of other chainsaw manufacturers all recommend 50-1 ?



Oh that's easy...
..all these chainsaw fatcat CEOs are sitting around a tradeshow convention in the VIP lounge..they get to talking. One of them goes, "Hey, we need to sell mo' saws"..they all nod their heads...so one of them gets this idea, "hey, we'll start recommending 50 to 1, the saws wear out faster, all the car companies are doing it, planned obsolescence"! they all like that idea..high fives and toasts all around....

..later on joe customer gets a new brand x..burns it up after a few months, takes it in for "warranty", gets the old "wrong mix, customer's fault, no free fix, here's an estimate, only twice what you paid for it new"! customer goes "I'll never buy a brand x again"! Storms outta the stealership, goes over to brand Y...lather, rinse repeat....if they all do it, where ya gonna go buy a saw, or trimmer, or whatever? HAHAHAHA


----------



## MustangMike

EPA started on the cars in 68 with the stupid air injector pumps, and got much worse in 71/72 with unleaded, catalytic converters, etc. They got so much worse mileage no one must have factored in the pollution generated to refine the addl gas, and the first Muscle Care era was over!

It took over 20 years for affordable cars to start breaking the 14 second qtr mile again. (1969 428 Mustang tested 0-60 in 6 seconds and 1/4 mi in 14 seconds).
I believe the test was conducted by Joe Gutts in Popular Mechanics, not that I would remember anything about things that far back!


----------



## hardpan

MustangMike said:


> EPA started on the cars in 68 with the stupid air injector pumps, and got much worse in 71/72 with unleaded, catalytic converters, etc. They got so much worse mileage no one must have factored in the pollution generated to refine the addl gas, and the first Muscle Care era was over!
> 
> It took over 20 years for affordable cars to start breaking the 14 second qtr mile again. (1969 428 Mustang tested 0-60 in 6 seconds and 1/4 mi in 14 seconds).
> I believe the test was conducted by Joe Gutts in Popular Mechanics, not that I would remember anything about things that far back!



The good old days:
Air pump - cut the tubes and plug them or mash shut, remove belt or entire pump
cat converter - replace with "test tube" or chisel out the ceramic honey comb
gas inlet - enlarge the hole so the regular gas nozzle could again be inserted

Still had a gas hungry dog.

I'm just talking about a family type vehicle.

But hey, the old muscle cars could outrun a new cop car more easily. LOL


----------



## Trx250r180

svk said:


> Didn't Brian buy out their entire back stock?


my local bulk oil place still has some in stock


----------



## Ron660

svk said:


> I guess I don't know when epa started worrying about emissions on small engines, obviously they were into cars by the mid 70's. I know my 1991 model 41 was recommended to use 50:1
> 
> Saws seem very happy at the 40-42:1 ratio although low revving HO saws could probably last indefinitely on somewhat less.


Over 10 years ago for handheld 2-cycle engines.


----------



## bwalker

50:1 was brought about by the desire to lower visable smoke emmissions and fouled plugs with the crappy oil the OEM'S peddled back in the day. Started to bite them towards the end with the advent of plugged up mufflers and strato saws. As a result OEM oils have gotten much better across the board.
Of note is the fact that the oil ratio for mx bikes really hasn't changed in decades. Mostly 32:1.


----------



## Trx250r180

Wow ......busy thread these days .


----------



## svk

Trx250r180 said:


> Wow ......busy thread these days .


After 430 pages we ran out of things to discuss?


----------



## Trx250r180

svk said:


> After 430 pages we ran out of things to discuss?


Well to keep you up to date ,klotz is the oil of the month ,a lot of guys run bike oils in saws ,but not saw oil in bikes ,and a lot of bike oils do not have stabilizers so your fuel may go murky over the winter .

Hi Svk .


----------



## svk

Trx250r180 said:


> Well to keep you up to date ,klotz is the oil of the month ,a lot of guys run bike oils in saws ,but not saw oil in bikes ,and a lot of bike oils do not have stabilizers so your fuel may go murky over the winter .
> 
> Hi Svk .


But does it smell good? Can I use it for milling in my ported, piped saw at 100:1? 

Hello


----------



## Trx250r180

svk said:


> But does it smell good? Can I use it for milling in my ported, piped saw at 100:1?
> 
> Hello


Could not tell you for sure ,i run amsoil .......because i like the color blue


----------



## zogger

OK.... here's a tangent...

Anyone got a super crap saw they don't care about? Two more tests: diesel and gas mixed, just wonder if it would work. not sure on what ratio to try though. Second is, we know you can use canola oil for the bar, how about for the mix as well? I am thinking that just might work, well mixed, really shaken up. Sure seems like it should work.


----------



## Michigan Escapee

It all burns up, and there's no residual lubrication. Sulfur would work, but the acidity would eventually eat holes in everything. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28548/sulfur-used-in-lubrication


----------



## Bwildered

A little more on the quantity of oil burnt in regards to cylinder wear


----------



## Big_Wood

Ported 372 tuned to 14.2k on 40:1 Lucas semi syn. Saw was rich at that as it tuned out to 15k with a light 4 stroke. Bottom end is soaking wet. Sadly, this saw snagged a ring on me this AM [emoji20]


----------



## Big_Wood




----------



## Big_Wood

judging by those pics i'm tempted to say 40:1 is excessive oil lol unless i need to tune the saw at 15k? i thought lucas left a saw all crispy dry? lmao


----------



## svk

So somewhere on the site someone mentioned if you take a 2.6 oz mix bottle and fill it full that's enough oil for a gallon of gas at 40:1. 

In reality that bottle holds well over 4 ounces which makes this false. I'll just stick to measuring like I areas did.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> A little more on the quantity of oil burnt in regards to cylinder wear


Four cycles and diesels. Outdated at that.


----------



## Andyshine77

Big end bearing doesn't look too healthy from what I can see. Sorry but I'm not liking what I see in the pictures, but this is just my opinion.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## bwalker

The big end does appear to show some wear.
And I could make any saw ran at 100:1 on cheap dino oil look oily like that 0retty easily.


----------



## scallywag

Andyshine77 said:


> Big end bearing doesn't look too healthy from what I can see. Sorry but I'm not liking what I see in the pictures, but this is just my opinion.


 
Are you referring to what looks like wear or hot spots on the LHS ?....If so, well spotted !


----------



## Andyshine77

scallywag said:


> Are you referring to what looks like wear or hot spots on the LHS ?....If so, well spotted !


I see quite a bit of scuffing on the bearing. The discolored areas look like heat may have been an issue as well. 

It's not a surprise the largest coolest surfaces are covered in oil, that's not what to look for. The look of the bearing tells me the oil film strength may have failed under stress. Obviously numerous other things can cause similar results. 

I also don't care for all the discoloration, and what almost look like carbon buildup on the lobes. 

Let's just say I'm not going to be running Lucas oil anytime soon.


----------



## Big_Wood

i don't take bearing cage color to seriously. if the big end of the rod was blue or where the pin goes through the counterweights i'd be concerned. guess what i'm gonna do? by the way, that saw was only run a lucas for a couple tanks before the pics. husky XP since new.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Four cycles and diesels. Outdated at that.


I'd like to see you produce any of evidence that disproves the combustion engine engineering fundamental quoted, two stroke, four stroke, petrol, gas or diesel, however old it maybe, carbon is carbon.
Anything that happened the day before yesterday can be regarded as outdated, just not quite as much like 16:1, 25:1, 33:1 or such in working 2 stroke engines.


----------



## Trx250r180

Boat oil Shane ,let any saw idle for a bit it will be wet like that inside ,let me see a pic after you mill a slab or buck some 30 inch rounds one after another for firewood .


----------



## Trx250r180

westcoaster90 said:


> judging by those pics i'm tempted to say 40:1 is excessive oil lol unless i need to tune the saw at 15k? i thought lucas left a saw all crispy dry? lmao


One of my saws tunes out at 15800 and 4 strokes ,if it is where it is happy run it that way .


----------



## Big_Wood

well i assure you that was ripping a board. that saw hung a ring yesterday so i pulled it and put a ported big bore kit i had on it. went to the bush and finished the deed. all i needed was 3 boards.


----------



## Big_Wood




----------



## Big_Wood

by the way, is lucas really boat oil? never saw TCW3 anywhere on the bottle but i'll look again. it's been working for me just fine and that pic yesterday was after ripping. pic above is the same saw with the big bore just an hour ago. free hand ripping. rough for sure but i don't care cause they only got to work as fire pit benches  by the way, saw hung a ring because of a shitty golf piston kit. ring broke and hung up in exhaust port. took a bunch of plating with it. had the golf here so i figured i'd give it a go but it wiped out a good strong running ported top end.  the reason i use lucas is because i get it for $7 CAD a litre.


----------



## Big_Wood

Trx250r180 said:


> Boat oil Shane ,let any saw idle for a bit it will be wet like that inside ,*let me see a pic after you mill a slab or buck some 30 inch rounds one after another for firewood *.



no thank you. your just gonna have to believe me it was ripping. only reason i even posted the pic was cause i had the jug off to replace. i don't remove a jug unless it needs to come off. the old jug was actually seized. had to pound the piston out through the plug hole lol.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> I'd like to see you produce any of evidence that disproves the combustion engine engineering fundamental quoted, two stroke, four stroke, petrol, gas or diesel, however old it maybe, carbon is carbon.
> Anything that happened the day before yesterday can be regarded as outdated, just not quite as much like 16:1, 25:1, 33:1 or such in working 2 stroke engines.


More BS from you per usual. Information is only good if you have the mental faculties to interpret it, which you don't.


----------



## bwalker

Trx250r180 said:


> Boat oil Shane ,let any saw idle for a bit it will be wet like that inside ,let me see a pic after you mill a slab or buck some 30 inch rounds one after another for firewood .


Lucas isn't boat oil fwiw. At least not the stuff I have seen.
And yiur right on the way a motor is run prior to shutdown having a huge influence on residual oil.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> More BS from you per usual. Information is only good if you have the mental faculties to interpret it, which you don't.


You haven't even attempted to provide some evidence, but instead have started on your lame insulting tone already, you're the BS artist here & prove it every time you post with the lack of facts or evidence, how about trying something different by just disproving the facts I have pulled from a world recognised combustion engine engineering textbook.


----------



## RedFir Down

westcoaster90 said:


> by the way, is lucas really boat oil?


No its not. 
The Lucas semi synthetic states right on the bottle "Use in chainsaws, snow mobiles, leaf blowers, weed eaters, etc."
I have used several quarts of it and nothing has blown up.


----------



## Big_Wood

RedFir Down said:


> No its not.
> The Lucas semi synthetic states right on the bottle "Use in chainsaws, snow mobiles, leaf blowers, weed eaters, etc."
> I have used several quarts of it and nothing has blown up.



I've used it a lot in the past too with no issues. Started using it when sunfish I think it was started talking about it. Used it for a year I guess but then started using Castrol super 2 stroke because of availability. I can only get the deal on Lucas in the closest city but I've been stocking up when I go to be sure I don't run out. Just gonna run the Lucas from now on as that's what's cheapest for me. Even the sonic co-op gas station stuff is more expensive then the Lucas.


----------



## RedFir Down

westcoaster90 said:


> I've used it a lot in the past too with no issues. Started using it when sunfish I think it was started talking about it. Used it for a year I guess but then started using Castrol super 2 stroke because of availability. I can only get the deal on Lucas in the closest city but I've been stocking up when I go to be sure I don't run out. Just gonna run the Lucas from now on as that's what's cheapest for me. Even the sonic co-op gas station stuff is more expensive then the Lucas.


Do you have a Conoco Phillips Distribution center close by?


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Lucas isn't boat oil fwiw. At least not the stuff I have seen.
> And yiur right on the way a motor is run prior to shutdown having a huge influence on residual oil.


I put that there to mess with Shane .he gets worked up real easy lol


----------



## Big_Wood

RedFir Down said:


> Do you have a Conoco Phillips Distribution center close by?



i don't even know what that is lol there is the sticks and some people live there. then there is the sticks of the sticks where few people live. that's where i live lol


----------



## Trx250r180

westcoaster90 said:


>


Nice work for freehand you cull


----------



## Big_Wood

Trx250r180 said:


> Nice work for freehand you cull



thanks! mastering free hand is a must if a guy is to build heli pads. some guys do it for 20 years and are still shitty at it. mostly the guys who aren't culls suck at it lol


----------



## RedFir Down

westcoaster90 said:


> i don't even know what that is lol there is the sticks and some people live there. then there is the sticks of the sticks where few people live. that's where i live lol


I hear ya. I spend the day working 25 miles outside of a town of probably 40 people. (but there cattle count is probably 10,000) They have to drive almost 2 hours to buy groceries.

Conoco Phillips has this oil. I called my local distribution center and they sell this oil for almost a third of Lucas here.
http://www.phillips66lubricants.com/mobile/Single.aspx?pid=39&brand=


----------



## Trx250r180

Yup I've done some freehand a time or two 
Sorry for the derail


----------



## Big_Wood

oh ya, there must be some kind of a place like that here. the 76 brand gas stations used to stock it. one of the guys i work for buys it by the cases of bar oil and that oil. i have no idea where he gets it though as i haven't seen it anywhere. must be ordered in. one of the licensee's also have the bar oil and i usually buy it off them for $2.40 a jug.


----------



## Big_Wood

Trx250r180 said:


> Yup I've done some freehand a time or two
> Sorry for the derail View attachment 502427
> View attachment 502429



that looks good too! you must be a cull! lol helifor have a guy running around after the fallers are done who just rip logs like that all day.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> More BS from you per usual. Information is only good if you have the mental faculties to interpret it, which you don't.


Are you capable of defending your position on anything without personally attacking the other person?


----------



## RedFir Down

westcoaster90 said:


> oh ya, there must be some kind of a place like that here. the 76 brand gas stations used to stock it. one of the guys i work for buys it by the cases of bar oil and that oil. i have no idea where he gets it though as i haven't seen it anywhere. must be ordered in. one of the licensee's also have the bar oil and i usually buy it off them for $2.40 a jug.


Yeah they have to order it here also. I have a case on order right now, not back for $50 a case. 
You might want to check into it to lower your expenses.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Are you capable of defending your position on anything without personally attacking the other person?


Cry me a river, Brad.


----------



## blsnelling

bwalker said:


> Cry me a river, Brad.


Hey, it's your problem, not mine.


----------



## Termite

westcoaster90 said:


> I've used it a lot in the past too with no issues. Started using it when sunfish I think it was started talking about it. Used it for a year I guess but then started using Castrol super 2 stroke because of availability. I can only get the deal on Lucas in the closest city but I've been stocking up when I go to be sure I don't run out. Just gonna run the Lucas from now on as that's what's cheapest for me. Even the sonic co-op gas station stuff is more expensive then the Lucas.



Just a little info on Lucas oil. Forrest Lucas is a local guy here. He lives in the old but renovated bowling alley most of the time. He saved the local golf course from default and supports the community very well. He heads an organization called save the harvest, trying to protect farmers from radical leftest. I bought a horse from him back in the seventies when he was poor. I have used his oil when it was donated to a charity and my wife won the bid.


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> Hey, it's your problem, not mine.


Brad, I have problem being civil with guys like you. However, Mr. Bewildered is a troll of the worst kind and I refuse him quarter.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Brad, I have problem being civil with guys like you. However, Mr. Bewildered is a troll of the worst kind and I refuse him quarter.


Some facts have been tendered, are you going to produce any evidence to the contrary other than carrying on like a tool?


----------



## bwalker

Nothing you have posted is factual or relevant to a two stroke motor.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Nothing you have posted is factual or relevant to a two stroke motor.





bwalker said:


> Nothing you have posted is factual or relevant to a two stroke motor.


ive produced the facts taken from an internationally recognised engineering combustion textbook, you haven't backed up your claim with anything but the usual nothingness, if you have got something that disproves the basic principle of quantity of oil, burning of oil = carbon = abrasive wear, let's see it then.


----------



## Termite

I hope Lucas two cycle oil does better than it's gear oil did in this test.

http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> ive produced the facts taken from an internationally recognised engineering combustion textbook, you haven't backed up your claim with anything but the usual nothingness, if you have got something that disproves the basic principle of quantity of oil, burning of oil = carbon = abrasive wear, let's see it then.


I won't play your games. Anyone half way on the ball will recognize the lubricants used in two cycles and four cycles are different as is the method of lubrication.
That this is lost on you is telling.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I won't play your games. Anyone half way on the ball will recognize the lubricants used in two cycles and four cycles are different as is the method of lubrication.
> That this is lost on you is telling.


So you actually have nothing factual to base your claim on then, this is a good game, where you show us you have nothing but empty claims again.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> So you actually have nothing factual to base your claim on then, this is a good game, where you show us you have nothing but empty claims again.


I am claiming what you posted was not written about two cycle motors. That's factual. What's not factual is the dots you connected,period.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I am claiming what you posted was not written about two cycle motors. That's factual. What's not factual is the dots you connected,period.


It is also about 2 cycle engines, but that is irrelevant, just show us something that disputes the quantity of oil burnt on the cylinder walls in relation to not causing wear from the abrasive carbon particles, surely you can come up with something other than your usual evasive dodging of such a simple question.


----------



## bwalker

In diesel engines.....


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> In diesel engines.....


It is irrelevant


----------



## bwalker

No its really not. What your are trying to do is take something about a diesel engine that may or may not be true anymore and apply to a two cycle *** motor. Apples and oranges.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> No its really not. What your are trying to do is take something about a diesel engine that may or may not be true anymore and apply to a two cycle *** motor. Apples and oranges.


Unless you can come up with something better than your own opinion with no facts, it will have to be taken that you have no proof of what you say, you are missing the fact that when hydrocarbons such as oil are burnt they produce abrasive carbon particles, two stroke, 4 stroke , petrol of diesel, the more oil the more abrasion happens on the bore walls, you fellows running excessively rich oil mixes are in really causing more bore wear, I'd go to say that it would extend to piston & rings also. 
Produce some proof that says otherwise.


----------



## 7sleeper

Bwildered said:


> Unless you can come up with something better than your own opinion with no facts, it will have to be taken that you have no proof of what you say, you are missing the fact that when hydrocarbons such as oil are burnt they produce abrasive carbon particles, two stroke, 4 stroke , petrol of diesel, the more oil the more abrasion happens on the bore walls, you fellows running excessively rich oil mixes are in really causing more bore wear, I'd go to say that it would extend to piston & rings also.
> Produce some proof that says otherwise.


I'd like to read of some proof of your assumption. 

7


----------



## bwalker

7sleeper said:


> I'd like to read of some proof of your assumption.
> 
> 7


Exactly..and is it pertains to total loss lubricated, two cycle, gasoline engines.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Unless you can come up with something better than your own opinion with no facts, it will have to be taken that you have no proof of what you say, you are missing the fact that when hydrocarbons such as oil are burnt they produce abrasive carbon particles, two stroke, 4 stroke , petrol of diesel, the more oil the more abrasion happens on the bore walls, you fellows running excessively rich oil mixes are in really causing more bore wear, I'd go to say that it would extend to piston & rings also.
> Produce some proof that says otherwise.


You haven't provided anytging or merit that needs disproving. What you have done is provide a snippet from an old, outdated book that's talking about something totaly different than the subject at hand. By your own admission your not that sharp, bit this is rediculous.


----------



## Michigan Escapee

7sleeper said:


> I'd like to read of some proof of your assumption.
> 
> 7



No you wouldn't.  Even if these mooks had an iota of google fu, and basic high school level organic chem, they ain't gonna be able to digest the info. 

Simple version, the "ash" left behind on burnup is what is abrasive, more oil, more ash, etc. Only thing is, this has been a KNOWN QUANTITY since forever, and various kludges have been made, since essentially the 1980s. ;P Some ash is not a problem, it gets kicked out with the exhaust, and isn't there long enough to be an issue. More ash/carbon buildup, might be an issue. If your saw looks like it's belching diesel exhaust, you got too damned much oil. And there will be enough crap accumulation to be a problem. lol! 

Ok, here's the big ugly for those who like pain. 

DI(detergent) additives (improves your mixology of fuel/oil/varnish/water/crap i.e. Seafoam/injector cleaner)

http://www.hazelpetrochem.com/pdf-file/Additives/multipurpose-engine-oil.pdf

Basic Bright Stock(made from paraffin residues in oil) 
ash can be high, medium, low depending on refinement

http://base.shamrockoils.com/group-i-oil/bright-stock/basic-type

Synthetics of oh so many kinds. 

http://www.soltexinc.com/pdf/Prod_Lub_Markets.pdf

PIB, grades and ash vary(generally "good enough" for most 2 cyc purposes)

https://www.lubrizol.com/ViscosityModifiers/Technologies/PIB.html

Someone bragging up their synthetic, with an overview of older tech. 
http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/oil-2T/2-cycle_lubes.pdf

and the general overview. 

http://www.sea-doo.net/the-late-great-oil-debate/2015/04/

and some test results with views of cyls, etc after burning for a while. 
http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/oil-2T/ultralight.htm

And, one not listed, because it's an artifact of the past. 

Asphaltic stock derived lubricants, while there was some experimentation in the past (50s-70s), it was so bad, it never got anywhere. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=yd405jfKVOAC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20
But... What did happen was the improvement of de-asphalting, cracking and reforming of paraffin stocks, etc.(what they called the bottom fractions) 
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28960/mineral-oil-refining

So when you read the term asphalt today, it means considerably different things than it did in the 50s-60s. Interestingly, with super heavy crude, shale oil, tar sands, produces an asphalt too heavy for typical uses, and they need to figure out how to downmix it. 

http://engineeredadditives.com/asphaltchallenge.html
Which means, you've even got improvements being done to "dead end" refined products.


----------



## Termite

I love your name, Michigan Escapee.
I am an Illinois escapee myself.


----------



## bwalker

Ash as it pertains to two cycle lubricants refers to mettalic ash residue that results from the open cup sulfated ash test. It has nothing to do with combustion by products of base oil.
The links posted really don't talk about anything remotely close to what dear old Bwildered is auggesting.


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Ash as it pertains to two cycle lubricants refers to mettalic ash residue that results from the open cup sulfated ash test. It has nothing to do with combustion by products of base oil.
> The links posted really don't talk about anything remotely close to what dear old Bwildered is auggesting.


Where is your reference material to back up your ideas to dispute engineering fact?


----------



## Bwildered

7sleeper said:


> I'd like to read of some proof of your assumption.
> 
> 7


You need to go back a page or two, there is a picture of the page which is engineering fact.


----------



## Trx250r180

I heard oil made for saws runs better in saws than bike oil


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> You need to go back a page or two, there is a picture of the page which is engineering fact.


That page had nothing to do with anything remotely close to the combustion process of a two cycle. 

Sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about, so much so, you don't even realize how far out in left field you even are.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Where is your reference material to back up your ideas to dispute engineering fact?


What I have posted is fact as it pertains to two cycle oil. I don't feel the need bore have the desire to do the keg work for you.


----------



## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> That page had nothing to do with anything remotely close to the combustion process of a two cycle.
> 
> Sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about, so much so, you don't even realize how far out in left field you even are.


This!


----------



## CascadeHusky

Remember how recess used to require an excessive amount of arguing and a light/moderate amount of football? In the end, everyone liked recess.

Mix ratio threads tend to turn into recess for (not so?) grownups.


----------



## bwalker

Except back in the day on the play ground Bwildered would have been the kid wearing the hockey helmet and riding the short bus


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> What I have posted is fact as it pertains to two cycle oil. I don't feel the need bore have the desire to do the keg work for you.


you haven't shown anything but your own ideas, source something factual that backs up your ideas to make them believable & factual


----------



## Trx250r180

bwalker said:


> Except back in the day on the play ground Bwildered would have been the kid wearing the hockey helmet and riding the short bus


I may have lol'ed at this .


----------



## Bwildered

Andyshine77 said:


> That page had nothing to do with anything remotely close to the combustion process of a two cycle.
> 
> Sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about, so much so, you don't even realize how far out in left field you even are.


Of course I don't know what I'm talking about & nobody here does either, but my dad was an engineer & he did know! I've just taken a pic from one of his books, you dyed in the wool excessive oil burners just don't want to accept the principle of the combustion process when oil is present in the cylinder, why do think 4 stroke engine piston, rings & cylinders last around 10 times longer than 2t engines even with lower spec materials. It all comes down to top end abrasion from carbon


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> Except back in the day on the play ground Bwildered would have been the kid wearing the hockey helmet and riding the short bus


So now your a big man now trying to somehow associate the intellectually disadvantaged in a debate, what an hero! Were you known as biff the bully at school or his not so bold Internet apprentice?
And all because you can't backup anything with any independent facts!


----------



## Chris-PA

I have to agree that in a 4-stroke diesel one should strive to burn as little oil as possible.


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> Of course I don't know what I'm talking about & nobody here does either, but my dad was an engineer & he did know! I've just taken a pic from one of his books, you dyed in the wool excessive oil burners just don't want to accept the principle of the combustion process when oil is present in the cylinder, why do think 4 stroke engine piston, rings & cylinders last around 10 times longer than 2t engines even with lower spec materials. It all comes down to top end abrasion from carbon


Because 4 cycle engines don't have ports in the cylinder. Than add heat, rpm's, less oil, higher output, the list goes on. Sorry but you're clearly out of your depth.


----------



## Jhenderson

I know I'm new here but someone needs to explain to me why they feel it's necessary to run a richer oil mix than the factory recommends. As memory serves me I've used and traded 2 394s, 2 371s a 372, 1 385, 1 2186, and 2 288s. All have cut over a million bft each. When traded they all had 150psi or better compression and all were run at 50-1 with Husky mix. Any of the saws I used before them I ran 40-1 with Stihl mix. What am I missing?


----------



## Michigan Escapee

So I suppose the real important question is, what is the ideal mix of fryer oil for donuts? You've got the lard or nothing purists, the health nuts who want maybe 33% peanut oil and 66% canola oil, then others who are like bacon grease, 4 times that amount lard, and the balance canola, crisco, or whatever you got hanging around. 

And more interestingly, how would you know if your bar and chain oil reservoir is leaking into your crankcase from a bad gasket?


----------



## Bwildered

Andyshine77 said:


> Because 4 cycle engines don't have ports in the cylinder. Than add heat, rpm's, less oil, higher output, the list goes on. Sorry but you're clearly out if your depth.


As I have said that I know nothing other that the facts & proven principals, show us how you're not out of your depth with some references to what you claim.


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> As I have said that I know nothing other that the facts & proven principals, show us how you're not out of your depth with some references to what you claim.



What am I claiming?? Nothing you've said had made any sense whatsoever. Facts? principals? well alright, have a good one. If you'd like to do your own research on two cycle theory feel free to do so.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> Of course I don't know what I'm talking about & nobody here does either, but my dad was an engineer & he did know! I've just taken a pic from one of his books, you dyed in the wool excessive oil burners just don't want to accept the principle of the combustion process when oil is present in the cylinder, why do think 4 stroke engine piston, rings & cylinders last around 10 times longer than 2t engines even with lower spec materials. It all comes down to top end abrasion from carbon


I don't know where to start with such stupidity. The increased wear of a two stroke has to do with their higher output, and the fact that total loss lubrication delivers precious little oil to where it's needed vs a pressurized lube system as found in most four cycles.


----------



## bwalker

Bwildered said:


> So now your a big man now trying to somehow associate the intellectually disadvantaged in a debate, what an hero! Were you known as biff the bully at school or his not so bold Internet apprentice?
> And all because you can't backup anything with any independent facts!


I know you think you have provided facts on this subject. You havent.


----------



## svk

No offense guys but you have been arguing this same point for over two weeks. Perhaps you can agree to disagree?


----------



## Bwildered

bwalker said:


> I don't know where to start with such stupidity. The increased wear of a two stroke has to do with their higher output, and the fact that total loss lubrication delivers precious little oil to where it's needed vs a pressurized lube system as found in most four cycles.


ha ha, now you have more unfounded claims, I'd doubt any proof will ever emerge backing them up but a miracle may happen one day or night. This is a great game where you show what you actually know. I've already said I not an expert, let's see who's honest here.


----------



## Bwildered

Andyshine77 said:


> Because 4 cycle engines don't have ports in the cylinder. Than add heat, rpm's, less oil, higher output, the list goes on. Sorry but you're clearly out if your depth.


That's your claim, please provide some evidence except for the undisputable one of the mechanical difference between 2 & 4 stroke.


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> That's your claim, please provide some evidence except for the undisputable one of the mechanical difference between 2 & 4 stroke.


I already have.


----------



## Bwildered

Andyshine77 said:


> I already have.


You have learnt well from the grand master of never backing anything up with any proof, not something that anybody would knowingly want to aspire to, 
throw me a bone of a documented fact, one little bit of one little part will do!


----------



## CascadeHusky

Bwildered said:


> Of course I don't know what I'm talking about & nobody here does either, but my dad was an engineer & he did know! I've just taken a pic from one of his books, you dyed in the wool excessive oil burners just don't want to accept the principle of the combustion process when oil is present in the cylinder, why do think 4 stroke engine piston, rings & cylinders last around 10 times longer than 2t engines even with lower spec materials. It all comes down to top end abrasion from carbon



By what metric do 4 strokes last about 10 times longer than 2 strokes?

Certainly not by revolutions, which seems the appropriate measure when "top end abrasion" is the end all be all.

At 2200rpms and 60mph, a mile takes 2200 revolutions. 400,000 miles would be 880 million revolutions.

At 9500 rpms it would take about 1544 hours to make 880 million revolutions. Which is not unreasonable for a $1000 saw.

Oversimplification, sure. But still interesting.


----------



## Andyshine77

Bwildered said:


> You have learnt well from the grand master of never backing anything up with any proof, not something that anybody would knowingly want to aspire to,
> throw me a bone of a documented fact, one little bit of one little part will do!



No thanks, I'm good. Take care.


----------



## Idahonative

All credibility issues aside, I think someone has been hanging around Brad too much.


----------



## Andyshine77

Idahonative said:


> All credibility issues aside, I think someone has been hanging around Brad too much.



Haha Haven't seen or talked to that old boy in months, it's been too long, think I'll give him a call tomorrow.


----------



## Idahonative

Andyshine77 said:


> Haha Haven't seen or talked to that old boy in months, it's been too long, think I'll give him a call tomorrow.



Who said I was talking to you?


----------



## Andyshine77

Idahonative said:


> Who said I was talking to you?



Than who were you talking about? not that it really matters. This reminds me I need to take a fishing trip this weekend.


----------



## Idahonative

Andyshine77 said:


> Than who were you talking about? not that it really matters. This reminds me I need to take a fishing trip this weekend.



If Brad's going with you, it would be ok to forget to put the plug in the boat.


----------



## Andyshine77

Idahonative said:


> If Brad's going with you, it would be ok to forget to put the plug in the boat.


Man you know how easy that is to do!! 

Seriously guys lighten up!! life is short but life is also good!! too good to argue with people that haven't realized that yet.


----------



## 7sleeper

CascadeHusky said:


> By what metric do 4 strokes last about 10 times longer than 2 strokes?
> 
> Certainly not by revolutions, which the seems the appropriate measure when "top end abrasion" is the end all be all.
> 
> At 2200rpms and 60mph, a mile takes 2200 revolutions. 400,000 miles would be 880 million revolutions.
> 
> At 9500 rpms it would take about 1544 hours to make 880 million revolutions. Which is not unreasonable for a $1000 saw.
> 
> Oversimplification, sure. But still interesting.


Thanks! I was thinking the same! And what is quite interesting we see a similar situation in nature, over their life span mamals have a similar heart beat be it either turtle or colibri.

7


----------



## Bwildered

CascadeHusky said:


> By what metric do 4 strokes last about 10 times longer than 2 strokes?
> 
> Certainly not by revolutions, which seems the appropriate measure when "top end abrasion" is the end all be all.
> 
> At 2200rpms and 60mph, a mile takes 2200 revolutions. 400,000 miles would be 880 million revolutions.
> 
> At 9500 rpms it would take about 1544 hours to make 880 million revolutions. Which is not unreasonable for a $1000 saw.
> 
> Oversimplification, sure. But still interesting.


Or how about say caterpillar 3606 engines that used to regularly do 30,000 hrs @ 2100 rpm in power generation before head reconditioning, let's see 2100 X 60 X 30,000 = 3,780 million revolutions , then if run under light loads where the bore glazes & oil gets past the rings onto the cylinder walls then burnt, the top ends & liners barely last 3,000 hrs & they are completely toasted, I know it's not comparing apples with apples with grey cast iron liners & cast iron rings vs nikasil bores & chrome plated rings or only a little more than 4:1 in revolutions, but hour wise it's 20:1, which was the original intent of the statement of "lasting longer"
To look at it another way, say a 70cc 2stroke single cylinder air cooled engine in a motorcycle doing 9500 rpm at 30 mph, at 10,000 miles it would be well & truly worn out with more rattles than a millionaires baby & that's with a nikasil bore & chrome rings, that would be 10,000 / 30 = 333 hrs, not real good at all.


----------



## CascadeHusky

Bwildered said:


> Or how about say caterpillar 3606 engines that used to regularly do 30,000 hrs @ 2100 rpm in power generation before head reconditioning, let's see 2100 X 60 X 30,000 = 3,780 million revolutions , then if run under light loads where the bore glazes & oil gets past the rings onto the cylinder walls then burnt, the top ends & liners barely last 3,000 hrs & they are completely toasted, I know it's not comparing apples with apples with grey cast iron liners & cast iron rings vs nikasil bores & chrome plated rings or only a little more than 4:1 in revolutions, but hour wise it's 20:1, which was the original intent of the statement of "lasting longer"
> To look at it another way, say a 70cc 2stroke single cylinder air cooled engine in a motorcycle doing 9500 rpm at 30 mph, at 10,000 miles it would be well & truly worn out with more rattles than a millionaires baby & that's with a nikasil bore & chrome rings, that would be 10,000 / 30 = 333 hrs, not real good at all.



So if you pull an extreme outlier for each example, butcher the arithmetic, change your defintions, then your original statement works!

Makes sense.


----------



## Bwildered

CascadeHusky said:


> So if you pull an extreme outlier for each example, butcher the arithmetic, change your defintions, then your original statement works!
> 
> Makes sense.


I thought that too! So responded with the same.


----------



## CascadeHusky

I'm done here, half a day is good for me.

Props to you all for keeping the fire alive for 14 months.


----------



## 7sleeper

CascadeHusky said:


> So if you pull an extreme outlier for each example, butcher the arithmetic, change your defintions, then your original statement works!
> 
> Makes sense.




Well of course we should all recognize the absolut authority on two stroke engines! Getting fantastic 10000 miles out of a two stroke bike is of course unheard of over here! We get, with regular minimum maintenance, out of the two stroke 50ccm automatic scooters running 30miles per hour on average 50000 - 100000km (31 - 62000 miles) without any engine rebuild prior to that...

7


----------



## blsnelling

It's too bad there's not a way to put a thread on "Ignore", lol. That way I'd never have to see it again. Unfortunately, this thread is just like a train wreck that I just have to keep looking at to see what's happening.


----------



## Chris-PA

Idahonative said:


> All credibility issues aside, I think someone has been hanging around Brad too much.





Idahonative said:


> If Brad's going with you, it would be ok to forget to put the plug in the boat.



You really are an ass.


----------



## Idahonative

Chris-PA said:


> You really are an ass.



You seem so let down Chris. Just for the record, I've never once claimed to be a nice guy. Not that I'm not nice...it's just that there's a group of D-bags that have nothing better to do then hang out on AS and argue with everyone. Then some will turn around and act like perfect gentlemen and preach to others about how they should treat others (no need to mention names...right?)

Now get your nose back in Brad's crack and leave A-hole's like me out of it.


----------



## blsnelling

Idahonative said:


> Now get your nose back in Brad's crack and leave A-hole's like me out of it.


Did I hurt one of your boyfriend's feelings?


----------



## Chris-PA

Idahonative said:


> leave A-hole's like me out of it


LOL, this thread had little or nothing to do with Brad, and you had little to nothing of relevance to contribute (as usual). You likely figured it was safe to go after Brad because everyone else does, which must appeal to someone with no balls. And then you whine about wanting to be left out of it! Why not head back over to your safe space?


----------



## Idahonative

Oh yea...stir the pot a little and here comes the leadership of the AS Transgender Club...out to put a hit on that A-hole Idahonative. Kinda like the gay mafia...LOL.


----------



## Michigan Escapee

CascadeHusky said:


> By what metric do 4 strokes last about 10 times longer than 2 strokes?
> 
> Certainly not by revolutions, which seems the appropriate measure when "top end abrasion" is the end all be all.
> 
> At 2200rpms and 60mph, a mile takes 2200 revolutions. 400,000 miles would be 880 million revolutions.
> 
> At 9500 rpms it would take about 1544 hours to make 880 million revolutions. Which is not unreasonable for a $1000 saw.
> 
> Oversimplification, sure. But still interesting.




Well now, if you want apples to apples, you'd need to use the same aluminum alloy used in 4 stroke engines in the 2 stroke.
Rather than aluminum to magnesium, i.e. alloys A390 T6 vs AZ91D 

But, if we want to do that, there is a resource.
http://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/6061-T6-Aluminum/AZ91D-M11916-Magnesium

If you look at the comparison, aluminum alloy is superior to magnesium, except in thermal elongation, thermal diffusion, and specific heat. Ultimately, the main advantage is thermal diffusion, and being 1/3rd the weight of aluminum alloy. Otherwise, your 13 pound chainsaw is now gonna be 16 pounds, and your arms are gonna be 12% longer after a day of carrying it.


----------



## blsnelling

Idahonative said:


> leadership of the AS transgender club...


Is that what they call you now?

You're the degenerate talking about a-holes, noses in butt cracks, and tranies.


----------



## Trx250r180

You guys broke Redbull's thread . Shame on you all .


----------



## blsnelling

Maybe if we get it locked again it can then disappear for good, lol.


----------



## Trx250r180

blsnelling said:


> Maybe if we get it locked again it can then disappear for good, lol.


A thread can go on without arguing ,i have seen it happen ,just not around this place ,Hi Brad .


----------



## Michigan Escapee

blsnelling said:


> Maybe if we get it locked again it can then disappear for good, lol.



Hmm, maybe by posting a video espousing sexual deviancy in the lumbering community. Ahh, here we go!


----------



## Chris-PA

Idahonative said:


> Oh yea...stir the pot a little and here comes the leadership of the AS Transgender Club...out to put a hit on that A-hole Idahonative. Kinda like the gay mafia...LOL.


Aww, what's the matter - tried the usual crap they all love over there and it didn't fly, and now you have no one to stick up for you? Poor baby. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.


----------



## Idahonative

Michigan Escapee said:


> Hmm, maybe by posting a video espousing sexual deviancy in the lumbering community. Ahh, here we go!




One time...at band camp...Brad and Chris sang about how much they liked each others wood.


----------



## blsnelling

Idahonative said:


> One time...at band camp...Brad and Chris sang about how much they liked each others wood.


Take your propensity towards sexual deviance and go home. We're not amused.


----------



## Idahonative

One time...at band camp...Chris used his Walmart chainsaw phone app to test Brad's engine. The rpms was real high...


----------



## Bwildered

7sleeper said:


> Well of course we should all recognize the absolut authority on two stroke engines! Getting fantastic 10000 miles out of a two stroke bike is of course unheard of over here! We get, with regular minimum maintenance, out of the two stroke 50ccm automatic scooters running 30miles per hour on average 50000 - 100000km (31 - 62000 miles) without any engine rebuild prior to that...
> 
> 7


I've heard of 2 stroke motorbikes like that, but after 40 years of owning, riding & repairing them I've never actually seen one, it's a good story though.


----------



## bwalker

CascadeHusky said:


> So if you pull an extreme outlier for each example, butcher the arithmetic, change your defintions, then your original statement works!
> 
> Makes sense.


Typical. ..


----------



## bwalker

blsnelling said:


> It's too bad there's not a way to put a thread on "Ignore", lol. That way I'd never have to see it again. Unfortunately, this thread is just like a train wreck that I just have to keep looking at to see what's happening.


This whole site has gone to hell. It's in dire need of a cull purge.


----------



## Chris-PA

Idahonative said:


> One time...at band camp...Chris used his Walmart chainsaw phone app to test Brad's engine. The rpms was real high...


Brad's engines often hold very good rpm under load - unlike some others. Several guys who make fast saws have made use of the audio spectrum analyzer. Others wonder how their saws are performing under load, then make ignorant comments like yours.


----------



## Michigan Escapee

Chris-PA said:


> Brad's engines often hold very good rpm under load - unlike some others. Several guys who make fast saws have made use of the audio spectrum analyzer. Others wonder how their saws are performing under load, then make ignorant comments like yours.



Hmm, I dunno. What about horizontal elongation over time due to the removed metal? Even half a millimeter is enough to distort your grain boundaries, and generate cracks causing catastrophic failure. It's explained with perfect simplicity in this paper.  http://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2182&context=etd


----------



## hedge hog

bwalker said:


> This whole site has gone to hell. It's in dire need of a cull purge.



Quoting or liking your post won't help some get the hint 

But I will try anyway 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## svk

bwalker said:


> This whole site has gone to hell. It's in dire need of a cull purge.


I agree with the second sentence.

There are over 70,000 registered users and 95 percent of the remaining drama could be eliminated by giving 10 people the boot.


----------



## Michigan Escapee

svk said:


> I agree with the second sentence.



Not to mention the bandwidth issues, lag, timeout, and general malaise of the datastream off this site. Maybe just ban all the Stihl owners from say, 9am-10pm, then it would only take 2 1/2 rather than 4 tries to load a page during busy hours.  Then change the login box to orange text on orange background for all the Husq/Echo owners. Smurfy green for all the Dolmar/makita owners. Sure this would require a massive amount or IP logging and processing. You'd just need to add 3-4 more server blades to handle the extra load. And then, uh, profit!?


----------



## svk

Michigan Escapee said:


> Not to mention the bandwidth issues, lag, timeout, and general malaise of the datastream off this site. Maybe just ban all the Stihl owners from say, 9am-10pm, then it would only take 2 1/2 rather than 4 tries to load a page during busy hours.  Then change the login box to orange text on orange background for all the Husq/Echo owners. Smurfy green for all the Dolmar/makita owners. Sure this would require a massive amount or IP logging and processing. You'd just need to add 3-4 more server blades to handle the extra load. And then, uh, profit!?


Naw I like the Stihl guys. It's the Dolmar fanboys and some Echo hugger causing all the trouble now.


----------



## scallywag

svk said:


> It's the Dolmar fanboys and some Echo hugger causing all the trouble now.


 
Really?....And here's me thinking its the 50:1 crew!


----------



## svk

scallywag said:


> Really?....And here's me thinking its the 50:1 crew!


100:1 Amsoil crew.


----------



## scallywag

svk said:


> 100:1 Amsoil crew.


 
A very 'abrasive' bunch indeed !!


----------



## Michigan Escapee

Coat all the surfaces with DLC(diamond like carbon) ,drop the friction to nothing, then you hardly need any oil!
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/09/evolution-surface-treatments/


----------



## Bwildered

Michigan Escapee said:


> Coat all the surfaces with DLC(diamond like carbon) ,drop the friction to nothing, then you hardly need any oil!
> http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/09/evolution-surface-treatments/


And there would still be a bunch of nongs hanging on to the 25:1 or richer theory that more is better, while the rest of the world moved efficiently by, leaving them behind!
LOL.
Fanks


----------



## Big_Wood

i run 40:1


----------



## scallywag

Bwildered said:


> *And there would still be a bunch of nongs hanging on to the 25:1*




Are you directing this comment at me?


----------



## Bwildered

scallywag said:


> Are you directing this comment at me?


No, it was just just cast out there to see what nibbles it got, I too was a 25:1 user myself once apon a time back before synthetic oils became common, but never got addicted to it, so that makes me a reformed nong.
Tanski


----------



## redbull660

tree monkey 661
36" tsumura
8pin sprocket
(2) new 36" oregon full comp square chains
same bar oil, clean air filtered, topped off gas etc etc.
I ran almost a tank of each (so mtronic would get used to each) before I did the test cuts.

Dumonde DTP 36:1 91 eth free
Honda Hp2 36:1 91 eth free

Wanted to see 32:1 and 40:1 but not enough time or log. So did 36:1 haha

I bought the gas and mixed them up at the same time.









Times - note on log 3 honda hp2 cut - I did have more of the tip in the wood and it cut a slightly larger slice closer to the end.








keep in mind different ratios might of performed better or worse. But I was very curious about these two so I did this little mini test.

one thing I noticed - the saw seemed hotter with the dumonde. My buddy is on vacation so I didn't have access to the thermo gun. Again I was just curious to try these two. ...and I will do them again in the big test.


----------



## Termite

I thought this is an interesting read. Is it true? Is some what true? Is it BS? 
It kinda agrees with Legend Oil's thesis.


----------



## bwalker

Termite said:


> I thought this is an interesting read. Is it true? Is some what true? Is it BS?
> It kinda agrees with Legend Oil's thesis.


Legend oil?


----------



## redbull660

Belray si-7 run at 32:1 with 91 e free. approx 2.5 gallons of mix


----------



## redbull660

more si-7 jug and video


----------



## 7sleeper

Very nice pictures! Although 2.5 gallons of mix is hardly anything and I expect even with simple engine oil to see similar pics. I would asume seeing any real quality pictures only after at least 10x as much!

7


----------



## Big_Wood

ran 18L of lucas 40:1 through 2 different saws today. one me and the other another guy i subbed too. both the saws still run lol


----------



## Termite

Here is another interesting read that someone dice up.

http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf


----------



## bwalker

Termite said:


> Here is another interesting read that someone dice up.
> 
> http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf


This was posted several hundred pages back and is a good read, especially the conclusions.
I should be of note that Yamalube 2R uses polybutene in its blend. It's good stuff and has been for many years with a very long track record.


----------



## gmcman

Forgive me if I missed a reply that covered this, I have followed this thread for awhile then broke off but have tried to view all the pages. 

As far as the timed cuts with different oil ratios, are the mixture screws being adjusted, any carb compensation for the added oil? AFAIK, when you add more oil doesn't this _*lean*_ out the saw? Wouldn't this result in a hotter saw and less power?

Again, I'm not sure on this but curious as to the fundamentals of changing the oil mixture in regards to how this leans or richens the fuel mixture.


----------



## gunnusmc03

It's an mtronic saw with computer controlled carb. The saw adjusts on its own as needed to reach the proper rpm.


----------



## bwalker

gunnusmc03 said:


> It's an mtronic saw with computer controlled carb. The saw adjusts on its own as needed to reach the proper rpm.


And I believe he is resetting after each test.


----------



## Termite

bwalker said:


> This was posted several hundred pages back and is a good read, especially the conclusions.
> I should be of note that Yamalube 2R uses polybutene in its blend. It's good stuff and has been for many years with a very long track record.


Oh, I have read almost this whole thread but my instant and total recall is not what it once was.


----------



## Termite

I made an inquiry to Bel-Ray about their 2t mineral oil. This is their response. 

Brian,

The *Bel-Ray 2T Mineral Engine Oil* uses a combination of group II and group I base oils for its base fluid. If you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to ask. 



With regards,

Sir Tech

I was expecting group II and group III.


----------



## Robin Wood

Taken from Tanaka FAQ, interesting read

*Q. How can Tanaka Perfect Mix accommodate my other brands of power equipment that require a different ratio than 50:1?*
A. Oil is a blend of components. The bulk of it is a base stock, which is oil, but it's primary purpose is not to lubricate, but rather to blend with, and carry additives that provide specific functions. The most important additive is the one that provides the lubricity. Some people refer to this additive as "bright-stock". The base oil also can blend with and carry other additives designed to accomplish different things. For example, quality oils have an additive that helps maintain the integrity of the gasoline should it be stored as mixed fuel for extended periods. Another additive may help reduce exhaust smoke.

Oil took on a marketing theme many years ago. A company who made brand A product also sells oil. How do they protect their oil business and prevent customers from buying the competitors oil? Let's say for the sake of argument that an oil blend requires X amount of the lubricity additive to adequately run an engine. The manufacturer would then formulate an oil blend with the amount of additives to reach that level when mixed at the odd ratio they prescribe for their product. As you've seen, there are 16:1, 25:1, 32:1, 40:1 42:1, 50:1, etc. However, if you analyzed these oils, you'd find very similar amounts of the actual ingredients needed to provide the life allowing lubricity (even at these odd ratios). This has been a very effective way of convincing a customer who bought a unit requiring two cycle oil to buy their brand of oil. Who wants to take a chance on a $500 machine?? If it says 42:1, the customer assumes he needs to seek out a 42:1 oil.

Tanaka Perfect Mix is what's referred to as a one-mix oil. The oil is formulated so that when mixed at 50:1, or 2.6 ounces per gallon of fuel, it contains enough of the life-giving additives to work in any of these engines. Additionally, it goes a long way in simplifying the mixing of the oil with the self measuring bottle. There are other one-mix types of oil that mix at a ratio of 100:1. Most people would look at that and think that there simply isn't enough oil to allow the engine to survive, but again, it's not the amount of base stock that is the important issue. It's what is contained within the blend. Their blend has higher percentage of the additive than does an oil that mixes at 25:1.


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## Andyshine77

Robin Wood said:


> Taken from Tanaka FAQ, interesting read
> 
> *Q. How can Tanaka Perfect Mix accommodate my other brands of power equipment that require a different ratio than 50:1?*
> A. Oil is a blend of components. The bulk of it is a base stock, which is oil, but it's primary purpose is not to lubricate, but rather to blend with, and carry additives that provide specific functions. The most important additive is the one that provides the lubricity. Some people refer to this additive as "bright-stock". The base oil also can blend with and carry other additives designed to accomplish different things. For example, quality oils have an additive that helps maintain the integrity of the gasoline should it be stored as mixed fuel for extended periods. Another additive may help reduce exhaust smoke.
> 
> Oil took on a marketing theme many years ago. A company who made brand A product also sells oil. How do they protect their oil business and prevent customers from buying the competitors oil? Let's say for the sake of argument that an oil blend requires X amount of the lubricity additive to adequately run an engine. The manufacturer would then formulate an oil blend with the amount of additives to reach that level when mixed at the odd ratio they prescribe for their product. As you've seen, there are 16:1, 25:1, 32:1, 40:1 42:1, 50:1, etc. However, if you analyzed these oils, you'd find very similar amounts of the actual ingredients needed to provide the life allowing lubricity (even at these odd ratios). This has been a very effective way of convincing a customer who bought a unit requiring two cycle oil to buy their brand of oil. Who wants to take a chance on a $500 machine?? If it says 42:1, the customer assumes he needs to seek out a 42:1 oil.
> 
> Tanaka Perfect Mix is what's referred to as a one-mix oil. The oil is formulated so that when mixed at 50:1, or 2.6 ounces per gallon of fuel, it contains enough of the life-giving additives to work in any of these engines. Additionally, it goes a long way in simplifying the mixing of the oil with the self measuring bottle. There are other one-mix types of oil that mix at a ratio of 100:1. Most people would look at that and think that there simply isn't enough oil to allow the engine to survive, but again, it's not the amount of base stock that is the important issue. It's what is contained within the blend. Their blend has higher percentage of the additive than does an oil that mixes at 25:1.


This is not really how it works, the math done not work like that. What you read was marketing nothing more.


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## porsche965

Truth lies in engine failures. Everything else is speculation. And not one here and one there, or a picture or two. 

For all the hundred of thousands of successful running two strokes used daily 1 or 2 past pics or failures don't make a trend. And could have come from other dynamics of the engine and maintenance, not the oil.


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## Khntr85

Wow a lot of work you have went threw on these test, thanks for making this info avalible to everyone!!!

I know this is totally off topic, but since you have your hug off quite a lot what kind is sealer do you use.... Not trying to start a debate just asking OP personally.... Agian thanks for all the work you have done!!!!


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## CR888

I don't have the time to read the 438 pages of this thread and need to know what ratio to run in my new saw.....so is it 32:1, 40:1 or 50:1? The answer must be in the thread somewhere, thanks.


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## Robin Wood

be ready to get bombarded by the rest of the posters lol


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## Miles86

I've been using 20:1 fuel - oil mix for many years. The tanaka article is good information, but does not address hydrodynamic lubrication mode versus boundry lubrication mode.
For long engine life the routine operation should be in hydrodynamic (full film) mode, so you need a certain amount of oil volume to achieve this layer of separation.
I like a high TBN 2 cycle oil, most "factory" oils are a TBN around 2.o . I like the marine PWC oils which are a low ash but contain additional calcium or magnesium sulfonate detergent-dispersant. The TBN is about 5.0 to 6.0. TCW-3 oils are even higher in TBN, around 9-10, due to the constant threat from the water environment.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28766/what-is-lubrication
http://pqiamerica.com/TBN.htm


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## Michigan Escapee

I've got about a quart of 40:1 bottle gas left over, and a few small jobs. Gonna live on the wild side and run it in my Husq 445, instead of the usual 50:1.


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## redbull660

Previously I had been running 32:1 HP2 in this saw. The piston top looked pretty wet.

I decided to back down a little to *36*:1 hp2. So after about 1.5 gallons at 36:1 ....


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## redbull660

muff modded 661 - 7 tanks of schaeffers 32:1 (ran from day one only on schaeffers 32:1)


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## redbull660

661 with new piston & jug. 3 gallons of amsoil saber 32:1 through it so far. don't really care for the discoloration on the front of the pistion skirt. I saw a little of that with Si-7. Didn't see it with honda hp2, mobil 1, or schaeffers.


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## redbull660

Tree Monkey is always telling me how well Schaeffers cleans things up. So after 3 gallons of amsoil mix, the top of the jug was fairly dirty. I decided to run 2 tanks only of schaeffers and test what he has been telling me. I'd say that looks pretty clean?


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## redbull660

I have been running 36:1 klotz original techniplate since day 1 on my new 661 arctic. I have 7 tanks on it so far. The saw has the old style boot and it's been bogging. So I decided to change the boot....which pretty much requires pulling the jug. It's a total pain to drop the tank with all the wiring on the arctic.







seems to burn pretty clean inside the muffler can. Big mark on the piston. Oil fault? Klotz does say 13k limit for orig. techniplate. But I would only go over that piss reving so? Or maybe Hd2 let something get through? This is my 11th or 12th 661 and this is the first time I've seen this and it's the first time I've used original techniplate. coincidence?
















see video for top of piston - it's wet and black. No transfer wash showing. Video is posted after pictures.

inside the jug. Not exactly clean, like I've seen with the likes of mobil 1, honda hp2, and schaeffers.


























vid - shows much more than the pics.



Maybe it would run cleaner at 40:1?


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## redbull660

ok ran 3-4 tanks of honda hp2 in the Arctic 661. Wanted to see how that would look vs the klotz original techniplate.

here is the klotz original techniplate vid 7 tanks at 36:1 -




here is same saw after 3-4 tanks of honda hp2 at 36:1 -


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## redbull660

and here is today - saw after 4 tanks of schaeffers 32:1 (i think it runs best at 32:1


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## redbull660

next ran klotz orig techniplate at 42:1


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## redbull660

Ran 4 tanks of 36:1 klotz super techniplate through the 661 yesterday.


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## redbull660

Ok I ran 4 tanks red armor last night. Use the same setup max flow, 28" 404, BP 91 eth free gas etc etc.

So this stuff is really RED.  It's like pouring red kool-aid into the gas tank. 32:1 seems to be a touch too much. I think if I run it again I'll try 36 or40:1. (this is non ported 661).

It appears the Red armor started to clean things up. But considering how big of a mess the Super Techniplate left. I'd say it did ok for 4 tanks. 

Piston Exhaust side - very very thin coat. But was shut down right after the cut.
Piston intake side - good coat
crank - good coat

Conclusion - Seems like decent stuff. I'd like to try it with 36:1 or 40:1 and starting out with a clean P/C to see what it leaves behind if anything.

So next up to bat - will go with the old reliable. Schaeffers and see if that can clean this super techniplate mess up.

























looks like it's starting to clean up the mess klotz super techniplate left on the pistion.


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## redbull660

I ran 5 tanks of scaheffers @ 25:1 to see if it could clean up the klotz mess. Looks like it good a great start to cleaning things up! What a mess though! ( Klotz super techniplate mess - http://************/threads/what-oil-is-best-and-what-ratio.98/page-353#post-153127 )


5 tanks schaeffers 25:1 91 eth free -

































missed the jug pics so you'll have to watch the video. I was at tree monkey's having a few good laughs as well.


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## redbull660

so if you've been following my take downs you know super techniplate made a giant mess of the saw in just 4 tanks and been trying to get it clean ever since.

Previous take down: schaeffers 5 tanks 25:1
this take down: red armor 5-6 tanks 40:1


*previous takedown schaeffers 25:1*





this take down Red Armor 40:1






*previous takedown schaeffers 25:1*







this take down Red Armor 40:1






*previous takedown schaeffers 25:1*






*this take down Red Armor 40:1



*



some thoughts...

- red armor does seem to clean things. I do think schaeffers does it better though.

- red armor is pretty impressive as far as residual oil. I do think the red dye makes it look like there is more oil then there really is. I am impressed at what is left at 40:1 vs what was left with schaeffers at 25:1.

- I noticed that the red armor residual seems to be gooey or sticky rather than what the rest have been like...oily?. Is this good or bad? I don't know.

- there is more crusty carbon on the exhaust side top of the cylinder vs the schaeffers so that is a bit concerning. But there seemed to be less of this problem when I ran 32:1 (see below link)

***edit: incorrect. see few posts down from this one***- there seems to be more build up on the top of the piston than what I started with.

- I've been running 28" 8pin 404 full comp on everything. So a decent load. I don't think I would run 40:1 again with that load on the saw. I'd probably go back to 32: or 36:1.



- I guess I am thinking there isn't much point to these take downs anymore unless the load and ratio is consistent. I'm thinking a 36" bar 404 full comp and 32:1 across the board.

- and to eliminate some - seems the best idea would be to do the oil test and take the top 3-5 performers and run those each for 8-10 tanks with the 36" 404 full comp and then take em down.

- attached below some more pics from this take down (40:1 red armor)


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## redbull660

Correction - I said the piston top looked like it had more build up on it. That is incorrect.

I scraped a bunch off prior to this picture. So this is the "start value" if you will... how it looked BEFORE running red armor 40:1






this is AFTER running red armor 40:1 5-6 tanks... the carbon layer is thinner for sure and no doubt more of the piston is clearing up. (look at the edges of both pics. Anyway still good stuff. Just don't think 40:1 was ideal for the load I was putting on the saw. And I will say the saw ran good using it. Very curious to see how it stacks up against others in the oil test.


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## redbull660

*** test chains etc for sale*** been doing a lot of testing. Got a bunch of stuff for sale... please buy so I can keep testing. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-661-r.301033/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/404-chains.301171/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/chains-bars-parts-oil-etc.301170/

getting ready...


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## Khntr85

Let me say the work you are doing and showing everyone is absolutely awesome.... GREAT stuff here, a lot of time and work you put into this.... Wish I could buy you a some brews!!!!

Thanks a lot kyle!!!!


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## Derf

I haven't been following this whole thread but here and there I like reading up on updates. 

Regarding the Schaefer oil that seems to clean so well - is this possibly because it has a "detergent" in it? I know most car engine oils often have detergents but I believe most two stroke oil does not.

I see you have the motul800 that drf255 recommended to me. How does/did it do?

Also, can I send you some Lucas oil? It's what I've been using and I'd love a comparative reference point.


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## bwalker

Air cooled two cycle oils do indeed have detergents.
The schaeffers product Redbull is using is an ashless, water cooled tcw3 marine oil and does not have detergents. Rather it uses ashless dispersents which are nitrogen/ amine based, which is what gives tcw3 marine oils their distinct smell.


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## bwalker

Keep uo the good work, Redbull.
Did I miss it or did you already test Mobil MX2T/2R


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## redbull660

7 tanks - Mobil 1 2t racing (red colored) 32:1 

this muffler has been used on other 661s I have so the inside really can't show. But the cover was pretty clean.












spark plug













Jug - the brown is not build up, it's oil that can be wiped away. The jug is very very clean. 

















Tree Monkey photo bombing my picture! 









Piston and crank - plenty of oil on the skirts. Good coating on the crank etc. Clean. Oil puddling inside those trox heads.


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## redbull660

also did belray SI-7

32:1 after 10tanks (new jug and piston)


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## redbull660

Ran Schaeffer 9000 full synthetic on a new 661. 32:1 for 12 tanks running 36"-41" .404 

This is *NOT* the tcw3 7000 semi syn.


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## MustangMike

redbull660 said:


> Ran Schaeffer 9000 full synthetic on a new 661. 32:1 for 12 tanks running 36"-41" .404



How do you find 1) that much big wood to cut, and 2) the time to do it!!!


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## redbull660

Just one of several piles I cut on.


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## Stihl 041S

So what are you using now? 
The Mobil looks good..I got a couple of cases....I run 40:1


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## redbull660

mobil 1, honda hp2, schaeffers, red armor, like them all.


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## Stihl 041S

redbull660 said:


> mobil 1, honda hp2, schaeffers, red armor, like them all.


Thanks


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## svk

redbull660 said:


> mobil 1, honda hp2, schaeffers, red armor, like them all.


Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the several hundred pages of content. Do you find these superior to the oils branded by Stihl and Husky?


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## porsche965

Stihl 041S said:


> So what are you using now?
> The Mobil looks good..I got a couple of cases....I run 40:1



I like Mobil 1 also. . Couple of cases here as well. Is there any chance of Mobil getting back into the U.S. market with 2 stroke oil?


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## Stihl 041S

Not that I’ve heard....but we can hope!!!


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## president

redbull660 said:


> mobil 1, honda hp2, schaeffers, red armor, like them all.


what do you make of { opti 2 )


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## Husqavarna Guy

redbull660 said:


> mobil 1, honda hp2, schaeffers, red armor, like them all.



Have you ran any of the Lucas? If not will you do a test on it. It seems to be real good for the price.


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## redbull660

president said:


> what do you make of { opti 2 )



have some. haven't ran it yet.



Husqavarna Guy said:


> Have you ran any of the Lucas? If not will you do a test on it. It seems to be real good for the price.



several people including myself have ran it 32:1. Consensus was it was very dry inside for being 32:1. There are better options for the same money. For example the schaeffers 7000 for approx $28 a gallon or schaeffers 9000 for approx $45 a gallon. Another cost effective would be yamalube 2r. All should be run 32:1. 

A very smart person I know said the lube between the piston and cylinder isn't the reason he runs 32:1. What needs the oil is the bearings.


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## Andyshine77

When Mobil1 2t was taken off the market I actually contacted them about it "I'm sure others did as well" the rep I spoke with said their was no chance of the oil returning. It was a phenomenal oil, It had lots of PIB.

I still prefer ester oils for a few reasons. K2 is still my overall favorite, it has a good ester backbone with a good amount of PIB. HP2 is a good choice with it's high film strength. For the ultimate oil in extreme use, R50 and Motul 800 are unbeatable.

I agree it's all about the bottom end keeping the crank seal nice and wet.

And yes I just replied to an oil thread again.[emoji33]

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk


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## jakethesnake

What’s the blend of the month?


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## bwalker

Andyshine77 said:


> When Mobil1 2t was taken off the market I actually contacted them about it "I'm sure others did as well" the rep I spoke with said their was no chance of the oil returning. It was a phenomenal oil, It had lots of PIB.
> 
> I still prefer ester oils for a few reasons. K2 is still my overall favorite, it has a good ester backbone with a good amount of PIB. HP2 is a good choice with it's high film strength. For the ultimate oil in extreme use, R50 and Motul 800 are unbeatable.
> 
> I agree it's all about the bottom end keeping the crank seal nice and wet.
> 
> And yes I just replied to an oil thread again.[emoji33]
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk


MX2T was a carboxyl ester oil. No PIB in its blend.
It was great stuff. Sad to see it go.


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## Andyshine77

bwalker said:


> MX2T was a carboxyl ester oil. No PIB in its blend.
> It was great stuff. Sad to see it go.


Thought I read it had PIB, oh well whatever doesn't matter anyway lol.


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## Chainsaw Jim

I ran a similar test with these ratios using multiple saws, both ported and stock, with tunable carbs. 
The stihl ultra will lose power mixed richer because it was formulated to run at 50:1, and it has a lower rating of "FB", so I decided to not use it. 
I picked three different brands of "FD" rated oil off the saw store shelf: Stihl hp super, red armor, and husqvarna xp. I remember similar results to Julian's test at lower rpm's. When I started testing different tunes I noticed 32:1 was providing more power and faster cuts at a higher rpm than 50:1. Higher rpm as in dialing it up as high as can go while still audibly 4 stroking. That rpm level is beyond the limit of an auto tune and the typical work saw, but not for gtg's and racing.


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## singinwoodwackr

Anyone try Idemitsu: synthetic blend Racing premix rotary fuel lube...in a saw?

Neighbor had a race car with a Mazda rotary hotrod motor that he sold. Gave me the extra mix he had.


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## full chizel

Recently bought some synthetic FVP from Menard’s in 3.2oz 40:1 bottles.


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## Ilmater

This may be of interest to some (WalMart Supertech MSDS): 

https://www.msdsdigital.com/2-cycle-oil-super-tech-universal-msds

Chemical Name CAS No Weight-% Trade Secret

Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated heavy paraffinic 64742-54-7 60 - 100

* Petroleum distillates, hydrodesulfurized middle 64742-80-9 5 - 10

* Mineral seal oil 64741-44-2 5 - 10

* Kerosene 8008-20-6 5 - 10 

* Distillates, petroleum, hydrodesulfurized light catalytic cracked 68333-25-5 5 - 10

* Kerosine, petroleum, hydrodesulfurized 64742-81-0 1 - 5

* Distillates, petroleum, light hydrocracked 64741-77-1 1 - 5

* Petroleum distillates, solvent dewaxed heavy paraffinic 64742-65-0 0.1 - 1

* Naphthalene 91-20-3 0.1 - 1

*The exact percentage (concentration) of composition has been withheld as a trade secret
1294072_WM - Super Tech Universal 2-Cycle Engine Oil Revision Date 26-Oct-2015


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## bwalker

porsche965 said:


> I like Mobil 1 also. . Couple of cases here as well. Is there any chance of Mobil getting back into the U.S. market with 2 stroke oil?


I sure wish they would, but I am not holding my breath.


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## Gabriel1982

I use Motul 2T 800 offroad in a brand new(first tank of gas barely used up) Makita EA6100P, 30ml to 1 liter of 95 octane gas . Barely gets warm(about 5 degrees Celcius here in Romania),revs easy,revs fast, smokes a bit only when revved from idle. Some unburned oil can be seen dripping on the stainless steel exhaust.Still have to figure out how to do the "break in " of the engine... I'll burn tommorow at least 4 more gas tanks maybe it will make a difference ,before I really start cutting 20 inch/50 cm diameter logs... Although somebody here,with far more experience and several gas chainsaws(this the first ever chainsaw for me) ,said breaking in for this makita 6100 model took the most to accomplish/finnish... 
Still no response from him ,although he made me curios just how long it took him...


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## Canyon Angler

Holy cow, 440 pages. That's got to be some kind of record!

How many pages is the "Beg for Manuals" thread or the "Do I Need to Start a Fight?" thread???


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## Stihl 041S

Canyon Angler said:


> Holy cow, 440 pages. That's got to be some kind of record!
> 
> How many pages is the "Beg for Manuals" thread or the "Do I Need to Start a Fight?" thread???


As one of The Fight Club Refugees.........hold my beer.......


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## RTK

Gabriel1982 said:


> I use Motul 2T 800 offroad in a brand new(first tank of gas barely used up) Makita EA6100P, 30ml to 1 liter of 95 octane gas . Barely gets warm(about 5 degrees Celcius here in Romania),revs easy,revs fast, smokes a bit only when revved from idle. Some unburned oil can be seen dripping on the stainless steel exhaust.Still have to figure out how to do the "break in " of the engine... I'll burn tommorow at least 4 more gas tanks maybe it will make a difference ,before I really start cutting 20 inch/50 cm diameter logs... Although somebody here,with far more experience and several gas chainsaws(this the first ever chainsaw for me) ,said breaking in for this makita 6100 model took the most to accomplish/finnish...
> Still no response from him ,although he made me curios just how long it took him...



Go out and start cutting wood, that's how you break it in.


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