# Climbing Techniques



## Redman-Racer

Hello, Im new to climbing and I'm wondering what techniques you guys use.

I've been practice for the last couple of month on a DRT use the blakes hitch, and to advance I use a home made lanyard to tie in with. Throw the throw bag on farther up, pull the climbing line up, untie the blakes hitch, unhook, re-hook, re-tie, and continue climbing. Also i have someone on the ground pulling the slack so I can advance the hitch, (cant get the footlocking thing down)


Also, what are some of your opinions on redirects? I have no clue about how to get them in place, or what to use for them. What are some other options to use when limb walking?


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## The Count

cut the tree down and then walk climb it.
)
kidding. 
welcome.


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*old threads*

Look back at some of the old threads. Lot of good info there. If foot lock is not your thing. Get a pantin or cmi foot ascender. There is several other tree forums to find info on also. Be safe. SDS


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## Redman-Racer

Thanks guys, ill have to look into those foot ascenders. Ive seen them, just wasn't sure how well they worked. Are they basically just another hitch with a loop? was thinking maybe I could rig something up. Money is so tight with us right now, as most of the little bit of money we do make goes on newer and better equipment. 

I've read about SRT, but sounds like allot of rigging and allot of money. 

This seems like a great site, with allot of helpful information. Look forward to being apart of the community.


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## Tree Machine

Hi redman. Reading your opening post, you are ascending in the most difficult manner there is. Re-throwing a shotbag while in the tree is almost a certain way to frustrate your day. Having two men working on one man's ascent, it gets no slower or more tiring or more time-inefficient.

I'm not being a critic. If a seasoned pro were to use these methods they would slow an otherwise fast climber.


The reason money is tight is too much of your mental energy (and physical) is wrapped around the acts of rope setting and entering the canopy. If less time were spent here, more time could be freed up to do actual money-making tree care.

Here's some quick tips: Set your rope once, as high as you can once. Don't ever bring a shotline into the tree unless you're doing some traverse project like in rec climbing.

Your 2:1 doubled rope system, which is DdRT, (not DRT) does not lend itself well to footlocking. Like walking up a steep sand hill as opposed to a paved path up the same slope. A foot ascender does not change that the climbing technique is still a 2:1 system

2:1 DdRT does not lend itself well to using redirects. Your ropes move contra to one another and ANYTHING that rubs the ropes either together or against something, like a biner or a limb increases friction, resistance, your progress and your abilities. Two redirects and you may not be able to even advance, period. Redirects are magnificent safety and positioning features, as long as your climbing system will allow it.

Lastly, inefficient climbing and ropesetting and low income can go hand-in hand. There are pieces of gear that if purchased will pay themselves off in time saved. And this is _every_ time, from then on out. Just a few key pieces, and everything changes. Save SRT for on down the road. Throwlining/Ropesetting is the gateway to entering the canopy. Arboriculture has this part well-nailed down. Get good at this, the climbing methods will come with experience. Throwlining/ropesetting you can become expert at in a short time. Climbing, well, this has a lot of different factors, but it's generally impossible to do climbing on rope until you've got a rope over a safe tie-in point.


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## jefflovstrom

If you are having trouble foot-locking, maybe change your boots to one's with less of a heel. It is really easy with tennis shoes.
Jeff


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## Tree Machine

Tennis shoes. Jeff, don't tease the readership. This is 101, they could believe you.


One can have the best footlocking boots, and the best footlocking rope and the best footlocking ascender, and 2:1 will STILL be somewhat less than half as efficient as 1:1, translated means somewhat more than twice as much motion.

Personally, I'm pretty highly skilled at footlocking, but if I try to ascend in 2:1 fashion, either with a hitch setup, or an ascender setup, I will suck. My ascent will be slow, tiresome and full of excess motion and effort. It becomes easier to air-hump. Footlocking is frustratingly hardly effective. Many just get used to this and it's just the way you go up a rope. Entire careers on this method. Our entire industry bases their climbing on this method. I'm so sorry. You're all doing it wrong.


Now some guys don't know the difference between 2:1 and 1:1. They learn 2:1 from whoever taught them and that's all you know. You try different hitches, but it's still all 2:1.

SRT is 1:1, but technically the most difficult to master, and poses limitations.

Twin line (D*b*RT) is by far the easiest to learn, easiest to master, simple and versatile. The problem is the proper gear has just not been developed and offered to our profession.

In 1:1 twin line, you can footlock barefoot. You are required to have dual ascenders, though, and honestly, there's not a definitive pair of THOSE out at this time. The new CMI's, with a couple of mods, are really, pretty good.

What I'm getting at is, tree care is hard work. Ascending can be hard work. If you choose to ascend 2:1 on a Blakes hitch with no friction saver, _you are going to experience ascending a rope in its most difficult, energy-taxing form_, and there's nothing I can do to help you there. Kleimheist, distal, VT, it does not matter. 2:1 does you no favors on the way up. It is the way that sailors and early treemen on manila rope developed an ascent system because they didn't have proper mechanical gear to do it in 1:1 manner. Today, we do.

I would say, make the ascent as easy as possible. Change over to whatever descent method you wish, hitch or mechanical, and stay safe.


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## jefflovstrom

Tree Machine said:


> Tennis shoes. Jeff, don't tease the readership. This is 101, they could believe you.
> 
> 
> One can have the best footlocking boots, and the best footlocking rope and the best footlocking ascender, and 2:1 will STILL be somewhat less than half as efficient as 1:1, translated means somewhat more than twice as much motion.
> 
> Personally, I'm pretty highly skilled at footlocking, but if I try to ascend in 2:1 fashion, either with a hitch setup, or an ascender setup, I will suck. My ascent will be slow, tiresome and full of excess motion and effort. It becomes easier to air-hump. Footlocking is frustratingly hardly effective. Many just get used to this and it's just the way you go up a rope. Entire careers on this method. Our entire industry bases their climbing on this method. I'm so sorry. You're all doing it wrong.
> 
> 
> Now some guys don't know the difference between 2:1 and 1:1. They learn 2:1 from whoever taught them and that's all you know. You try different hitches, but it's still all 2:1.
> 
> SRT is 1:1, but technically the most difficult to master, and poses limitations.
> 
> Twin line (D*b*RT) is by far the easiest to learn, easiest to master, simple and versatile. The problem is the proper gear has just not been developed and offered to our profession.
> 
> In 1:1 twin line, you can footlock barefoot. You are required to have dual ascenders, though, and honestly, there's not a definitive pair of THOSE out at this time. The new CMI's, with a couple of mods, are really, pretty good.
> 
> What I'm getting at is, tree care is hard work. Ascending can be hard work. If you choose to ascend 2:1 on a Blakes hitch with no friction saver, _you are going to experience ascending a rope in its most difficult, energy-taxing form_, and there's nothing I can do to help you there. Kleimheist, distal, VT, it does not matter. 2:1 does you no favors on the way up. It is the way that sailors and early treemen on manila rope developed an ascent system because they didn't have proper mechanical gear to do it in 1:1 manner. Today, we do.
> 
> I would say, make the ascent as easy as possible. Change over to whatever descent method you wish, hitch or mechanical, and stay safe.



That was a good thought out post, I am just saying that foot-locking is faster then anything I have tried. When we had removals and trims on the same job, I had problems foot-locking until I brought a pair of hiking boots with a nice sole. After that, there was no way faster and easier way for me. Now we got prussiks and stuff, but, if can't foot-lock,check your footwear.
Jeff


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## Tree Machine

Way true, Jeff. Quality mountain boots give you good footlocking ability+ankle support+waterproofness+the sole shank which provides protection and barrier from all the things we step on all day.

I'm in agreement, as there really is no disputing, footlocking is the way to go.

But for the guys who have good boots, and they're having trouble footlocking, it is not because of the footlocking itself, but that their 2:1 system is the issue.
Most guy just wouldn't know this unless they had footlocked on a 1:1 system as comparison.

The easiest way to do this comparison is on a dual ascender. Clamp the ascender on the twin line. Footlock up a couple strides footlocking the dual lines. This is a 1:1 system. Now stop. Isolate one of the two lines coming out of the dual ascender, follow it down, now footlock that one and that one _alone_. The other side will stay anchored and not move, and this is a 2:1 system. Try one, then try the other, the difference is immediate and very noticable, like, why would anyone do the 2:1? But if you've never done a twin line 1:1 you can suffer in the agony of 2:1 and never even know there's a way that's twice as efficient.

It's kinda hard to get it across in words. You have to see for yourself. It starts with just knowing that there are two doubled-rope techniques and SRT. Three. Most are only aware of two, and are afraid to move up to SRT. They are therefore sentenced to a career of 2:1 ascent and that sucks because tree work can be so much fun when you can dominate ascents with such ease, you'll be like, Tree Machine, thank you, man.

I only share because I care.


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## tree md

Climbing old school on a blakes is a good technique to Know but you are going to want to move on to some type of split tail system pretty quick. You're climbing on what is called a closed system. A split tail/prussic/eye to eye is the way to go. Allows you to incorporate a dynamic system where you just unclip a carabiner and throw the running end of your line around different tie in points. Much faster and easier than having to untie and retie a blakes hitch every time you need to change TIP's. This will also reduce the need for redirects, although redirects come in very handy for positioning as Tree Machine has mentioned.

Search is your friend here. Lots of good info if you know the right key words to search for.

Tree Climber's Companion. Buy it, read it, live it.


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## Tree Machine

Split tail is old school innovation on old school method. It is still 2:1. no matter how many dog leashes, micropulleys and friction savers you throw at it.

Footlocking up a traditional setup and going up something with a split tail is identical. They are both a 2:1 setup with all the inherent problems.


The lesson has always been, start with a system that is difficult, move up to something equally as difficult, but with more pieces so you can unclip from yourself instead of untie. I remember when the split tail came out. Everyone thought it was the craze. It was the same 2:1 system. Did the traditional system suck so bad that a tiny improvement to an otherwise unchanged system created a sort of new evolution in climbing method?. 

Well, it did. And it still is. Except now we have high-tech tress cords, magnetic block friction savers and VT's and variants of VT's.
But guess what? It's still 2:1 and if you're having problems footlocking its because the 2:1 system + sit-back losses from your saddle. The inherent losses and inefficiencies makes ascending a real time-consuming, motion intensive effort. This is not my opinion. Anyone can experience the difference of 1:1 vs 2:1, but one has top first realize that the difference exists.

I'm going to exit now. I've had this rant a couple times a year for the last decade. I'm not wanting to crusade this, I just feel it important to paint a clear picture with accurate information so that guys who are trying to footlock don't feel it's something wrong with them, their method, or with their boots. It's just that a 2:1 closed system. You're not ascending so much as hoisting yourself. 2:1 is an advantage if you're hoisting a load, not if you ARE the load.


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## Tree Machine

The most efficient way to ascend a 2:1 system is to do it upside-down, with your feet releasing the hitch and pull, pull, pull. You have no slack tending, which is, at the heart of it all, the very worst part of 2:1 climbing.. Pulling rope. And pulling rope. And pulling rope.


You guys know what I mean.

In a 2:1 system, the physics are that you have a 'mechanical advantage', and that is stated in the classical sense of ropes and pulleys and no assumed friction. Remember 7th grade science? We weren't paying attention, but they were teaching us this stuff. These are the bare basic fundamentals of motion.

In a 2:1 you are creating a big, elongated loop, that you slowly close as you are attached to the bottom of the loop. Pull enough rope through that split-tail hitch, and you WILL eventually close that loop. By the time you get to your 50 foot destination, you will have pulled 100 feet of rope. Welcome to 2:1 'mechanical advantage' LOL. Half the weight hoisted, twice the number of half-pull motions.

Ahh, I see myself horizontal, feet on the tree, facing upward, pulling, pulling, pulling, pulling, baby-stepping my way up. I can pull ~ 2 feet of rope at one try, but I only gain 1 foot in altitude. I am being robbed of *1/2* of my intended motions. WTF

What else do we do to overcome the inefficiencies of 2:1? Air hump. That's real professional and slow. Rock back, pull rope, hold rope with one hand, advance hitch with the other, sit upright, repeat. Yea, and over your career you get to do that a half a million times, _fun_.

Forget about footlocking. 2:1 and saddle sitback losses mean somewhat more than twice the motion is needed to get you up there. The 2:1 system is geared backwards for footlocking.

Now there are many good climbers, there are great climbers, and they all use 2:1 systems, because that's all our profession has ever had since the beginning of time. They endure the inherent losses and inefficiencies. They tend as much slack as the next guy. They just have learned how to pull rope faster. And 2:1 ascent for them sucks just as bad as it does for you. Footlocking, they get 50% or less efficiency, just like you.


I see a trend of climbers ascending mechanically 1:1, (because the word is getting out) and descending on friction hitch, 2:1 like they're used to You flipline in once you are to the top and during your short rest, change over. The 1:1 ascent means.... this is important, worthy of a drumroll..... 1:1 ascent means *no more slack tending!* WhaT? (earth shakes)


Yes, no slack tending. No pulling rope. No closed-loop system. No getting robbed of half of your effort. No hoisting yourself. No rope moving, thus no friction saver because no friction at the tie-in, period, just you moving on the rope, and on the tree. It is amazing how much more tree climbing and tree care you can do when you eliminate rope pulling & slack tending. And when you attempt to advance that two feet, you get the two feet. That's what I'm trying to share. Just the scientific fundamentals of these climbing systems. I'm not making it up, and I'm certainly not the first to say it.


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## Tree Machine

On top of all I've shared above, you should check out this thread. It's sort of typical of the 2:1/friction hitch learning curve to be at this place at some time or another.


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## Bermie

Well said TM...!

Let's guide the newbie through his evolution from old school to newer school...

Would you not say however, that in the absence of someone to show and teach SRT...working his way from the closed system to a split tail blakes, then on to the better hitches with slack tenders would be a safe way for him to progress?
Or am I stuck in the fact that 2:1 was how I was taught...would a newbie who was shown 1:1 from the very beginning have no problem with the technique (all things being equal as far as ability)


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## Redman-Racer

Thanks for all the help, and info guys. I would love to learn a SRT, ill just have to do some research when I have the time. The split tail thing though, I've actually thought about that, not realizing it was an actual method. Now that you have informed me of this, I'm sure its going to help out a ton already. Also setting the the line as high as possible will be possible for me with a split tail. I didn't before, because I couldn't figure out, how i would get past branches that are below my TIP, between the two ropes. Also, I have that book (little white one) and, I've, for the most part, read through it. I've went over everything that relates to my method of climbing, am I missing something in the book though?


The only question I have now is the same as Bermie, should I learn on a DdRT, and move "up" to a SRT?

also, what are some of these slack tending hitches?

I really appreciate all the help.


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## Tree Machine

Bermie said:


> Well said TM...!
> 
> Would you not say however, that in the absence of someone to show and teach SRT...working his way from the closed system to a split tail blakes, then on to the better hitches with slack tenders would be a safe way for him to progress?



No, not really. I would start someone on the easiest there. Make the ability to learn footlocking easy. Get some confidence going and skip this long, painful learning curve. Start easy, THEN go to a 2:1 closed-loop system and see how hard it is to ascend with and how difficult footlocking will be, then you will probably want to come back to 1:1 D*b*RT. Why? because 1:1 twin ascent is joyously easy.

So why doesn't everybody do it?


Bermie said:


> Or am I stuck in the fact that 2:1 was how I was taught...would a newbie who was shown 1:1 from the very beginning have no problem with the technique (all things being equal as far as ability)



Bingo. We learn a certain way, get comfortable with it, may or may not be aware of the limitations the system places on us and we climb the way we're taught. We modify however we can to make it better, but still live within the constraints of the system. We climb, essentially, on the system everyone else around us climbs on. 2:1 DdRT


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## Tree Machine

All the other climbing disciplines mock us. 

I was never taught by a tree climber the DdRT technique. I forced myself to learn it a couple years in. I was just getting through the kleimheist, distal, blakes, french prussik phase when the split-tail method was announced. Then I went through all the hitches on split tail. I kept trying to find what I was doing wrong. I had been a pretty good early climber, now I am having all kinds of issues, and slack tending and rope feeding that wouldn't quit and friction that was sucking the life out of my climbs.

I only lasted a few seasons 2:1. I couldn't progress. It was like I was running in quicksand. So I went back to what I started with, a real rudimentary setup that I later learned is used by competitive arborists in footlock competitions; twin line ascent using only a prussik. I'd fly to the top, fashion a munter on the biggest steel triple lock available and figure out a tie-off. Crude, but effective. 1:1 DbRT at it's bare minimum, but I became a better climber, much faster with less motion, less slack tending and 100% control of the friction in one place, rather than two.

I wanted to continue the ease of 1:1 twin line ascent, but on prussik you can't stop and rest, or do tree work on the way up; the prussik will lock up. To control both sides of the twin line, it seemed that you would need an ascender on each side. I bought a left and right CMI, and mechanically configured them together through one common axel and riveted the bodies together. This is 15 or 16 years ago. I trashed them after much use, better than a year, then the plastic components on the ascenders broke and failed, so I retired them.
(I still have them)​
Then Kong came out with their dual. I climbed on those for like a decade. I kept going back to 2:1 now and then to see if there was something maybe that I was missing. Arboristsite was invented somewhere along the line and I got to glimpse more deeply into our professional community and who was using what, and why. ALL 2:1 DdRT, with a tiny, tiny smattering of SRT, much like today.

So Bermie, the answer to your question, we *are* all so dug into the 2:1 system that its simply hard to see outside of it. SRT seems like it's expensive and requires lots of rigging, but that's simply not true. Only the bravest, or so it is said, venture that direction. Whatever. You need a handled ascender to go up, and a friction controller to go down, that is all. 

1:1 twin line is even simpler and easier than either DdRT or SRT; no rigging, no anchoring, no friction savers, no hitches, no tying, setting, dressing, weighting, redressing. No slack tending. No rope pulling. No hoisting yourself.
Just attach and go. Some of the dually redundant dual ascenders really let you skip over some of the hard stuff. You can always go back and learn a more difficult 2:1 method , but I would start easy. Dual ascenders are almost like cheating, but there is no form of cheating here, just getting into the canopy safely and with as little physical effort and motion as possible.

You still need to learn how to climb the tree, but I really think there's an advantage to learning an easy rope ascent method first. Let the climber then decide, afer experiencing both, how he (or she) wants to go.

Right now, as it is, you learn the hard way and can climb the rest of your career using essentially the same 2:1 system. I acknowledge the risk in saying this, that veterans of 20 or 30 years will not see eye-to-eye with me. They been climbing on a distel hitch for 27 years and it's always gotten them up and around the tree. 

I have no argument against that.


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## kevin bingham

would not bother teaching a begining climber 2:1. cant figure out how TM does his twin rope climbing but I am %100 SRT. SRT is not more gear intensive, it just all around makes more sense. To me anyway.


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## Tree Machine

No secret, I use the dual ascenders. Downward adjustability / short descent is now an option on twin line, so I work off them until there is no more ascent to be done, then take 10 seconds and swap for a descent device that handles each side together, or independently.

I climb a lot of SRT, just leave one side of the dual unused. Same dual-sided descent piece can be used SRT, just leave one side unused. 

Anchor one leg of the system to you, the other leg through one side of the descent piece, then you have 2:1 DdRT descent. The only thing I WON'T do is 2:1 ascent, I mean I can, but... so twin or SRT for going up, but twin is just plain easier. I've climbed both for many years, I'm pretty clear what works most effectively, and why. However, I'm a long way from knowing everything. Nor do I claim any expertise, what I use now may not be what I use 2 months from now. I'm always looking for better and will change in a heartbeat.

For all practical and functional purposes 1:1 twin and 1:1 SRT are incredibly similar in almost all respects. Learn one, the other will come very naturally. 

I use what I use because it's so far the best system I have worked with_ that will allow the climber to exercise all three rope techniques_, interchangably, often within the same climb. I use whichever technique is the most advantageous in the moment. This may be important only to me, I don't know. I just like mixing it up and exercising different rope techniques without having a gob of gear to do it with. It's really very minimal gear, given all the options it opens up, duals and a friction piece, caribiners.... that's about it.


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## kevin bingham

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOgoxihou-8


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## Tree Machine

I love that, though it seems it will only do SRT. Could that invention be 'reinvented' to accommodate not only the one line, but the option of one OR two? And could it be made to apply and remove midline instead of having to feed the rope's end through? I'm just thinking the guy doing a 40 foot ascent and all he's got is his 200 foot rope. That would mean (SRT) 40 feet up, 40 feet down leaves 120 feet of line to feed through before the climb can start, or pre-feed the device 80 feet in and THEN set the rope.

Can spliced terminations fit through the device?

Again, I think the innovation is grand. I tend to shoot for the practical, though, as well as the versatile. 

There are a LOT of SRT devices out there. Good ones. Rated. Time-tested.

To have a single device that applies mid-line, accomodates SRT, DbRT, or DdRT and does both (frictionless) ascent and (precision control) descent with convenient soft-lock and hard-lock options, now there's an invention that needs inventing. This does not exist that I know of, and anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong. That piece would set professional tree climbers in a truly unique class. And it should have a handle so you don't have to rely entirely on your hand grip on the rope. 

Right now we're 30 years behind other disciplines. We have some incredibly resourceful climbers, I think it's possible.


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## moss

Tree Machine said:


> To have a single device that applies mid-line, accommodates SRT, DbRT, or DdRT and does both (frictionless) ascent and (precision control) descent with convenient soft-lock and hard-lock options, now there's an invention that needs inventing. This does not exist that I know of, and anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.



I really like tools that are very good at one thing. It seems that a device that can do it all will not do one mode quite as well as a dedicated device. A worthy quest though. The Unicender gets close but doesn't cover DbRT.

DbRT does take away the SRT problem of easily moving or removing a rope from a TIP. DdRT still remains super convenient for climbing in the crown without the problem that SRT still has with taking the rope out remotely when you have to repitch etc.

Love the Rope Wrench! 
-Andrew


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## moss

Tree Machine said:


> Right now we're 30 years behind other disciplines. We have some incredibly resourceful climbers, I think it's possible.



In some ways technical tree climbing is ahead, there are unique demands and requirements compared to many high angle disciplines that are basically up/down or "across". Or in the case of high angle rescue involve massive amounts of gear and are personnel intensive.

Doesn't mean that tree climbers aren't going to continue to push ahead and innovate.
-Andrew


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## Tree Machine

> I really like tools that are very good at one thing. It seems that a device that can do it all will not do one mode quite as well as a dedicated device.


I very much agree. A exception is a dual ascender that ascends SRT as well as a single ascender + can ascend twin line equally well.





> D*b*RT does take away the SRT problem of easily moving or removing a rope from a TIP.


 ... and eliminates the doubling effect at the tie in point, AND half the rope stretch/bounce and gives twice the amount of frictional area for footlocking. Those are the basic D*b*RT advantages, in addition to what you stated. There are more. I'll elaborate



> D*d*RT still remains super convenient for climbing in the crown without the problem that SRT still has with taking the rope out remotely when you have to repitch etc.


 Don't forget about this; 2:1 DdRT,there is rope friction being administered to the tree's cambium and the added wear to the rope, and the variable friction caused by differing limb diameters and bark textures and variable friction if that limb tie-in point is dry, wet or snow or ice covered and filth impregnating into the rope as it grinds across bark and moss. Or you can add a friction saver to the DdRT system, but that requires time setting it and retrieving it remotely from the ground. Also note that DdRT requires your weight and pressure to pull rope through the hitch and up and over the tie-in point. Requirement, not an option.

I would consider all the factors before assigning a method as super convenient. I read you carefully, Andrew. You say super convenient for climbing in the crown. If you add the part of using DdRt for ascent to get into the crown, it's a deal breaker as 2:1 is much more work and motion and time.

Even if you were to go twin line to the tie-in point, you still now have to flipline in, pull the tail of the rope all the way up, ensure it doesn't get away from you and fall to the ground, fashion a friction hitch, tie, dress and set it, weight it, re-set it, add your stopper knot, THEN climb. Add setting the friction/cambium saver if you choose to smooth out the system and preserve the trees sensitive living tissue. Then you have to somehow remotely retrieve the friction saver from the ground, hoping it doesn't get stuck. On resinous conifers (without a friction saver), DdRT impregnates the rope with pitch as it passes over, gumming the rope and adding a sticky substance that can collect grit and debris. Resin does not wash out with soap and water. It requires a solvent.

Personally, I find DbRT 'super convenient' because it streamlines everything by taking all the above out of the equation, though you can opt to include any one of the above _if it presents an advantage._

The problem with D*b*RT (1:1 twin) is the right _descent_ gear has not yet been developed _commercially_. That doesn't mean the rope technique isn't superior in all respects, it just means the gear is not there yet to take full advantage of it. Stating the goals I just have, we are close to to imagining, and then developing that piece

I see an ideal descent piece as that it handles SRT or Twin equally well. If it does SRT, if you anchor the tail to YOU instead of the tree, you are now 2:1 DdRT, so really, all we need is a piece that can handle one single line, or the two lines. If it handles two lines it needs to handle them identically and simultaneously, OR independently of one another.


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## moss

Tree Machine said:


> Don't forget about this; 2:1 DdRT,there is rope friction being administered to the tree's cambium and the added wear to the rope, and the variable friction caused by differing limb diameters and bark textures and variable friction if that limb tie-in point is dry, wet or snow or ice covered and filth impregnating into the rope as it grinds across bark and moss. Or you can add a friction saver to the DdRT system, but that requires time setting it and retrieving it remotely from the ground. Also note that DdRT requires your weight and pressure to pull rope through the hitch and up and over the tie-in point. Requirement, not an option.



For initial entry for a high TIP I cinch the limb single line, hitch is on the rope, ascender above the hitch, SRT up, when I reach the TIP quick switchover to DdRT with hitch already in place. 

I always use a conduit cambium/rope protection for DdRT, very easy to install and take out. I make my own, very inexpensive as tree climbing gear goes. It's not as friction free as a pulley/block but it runs MUCH smoother than rope on bark. See photo below.

When I climb DdRT or SRT my hitch just rides the rope, very little friction, I don't sit back on the hitch per pull. My DdRT rig is not superior to 1:1 but for climbing in the crown it is very good considering all the other DdRT conveniences.

Simple to install and take out "Dan House" cambium/rope protection






Example of climbing SRT with hitch riding the rope ready for DdRT in the crown, hitch rides the rope the same position when climbing DdRT, grabs when loaded, hands just pull rope, for SRT a bungee moves ascender up automatically.





By the way, I appreciate your calm and rational way of discussing climbing technique.
-AJ


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*dual*

Tree Machine how do you descend with dual ropes? Or change over to 2:1 to go down?


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## Tree Machine

Sawdust, I will answer that in just a moment. Let me reply to Andrew first.



moss said:


> By the way, I appreciate your calm and rational way of discussing climbing technique.
> -AJ


As do I appreciate exchanging with you. We're actually having a discussion about science and physics; friction vs gravity, basically. This not a debate or opinion-fest, or who prefers what. It's an objective look into three rope techniques and defining the advantages in the different methods of controlling friction.
Thank you for your pictures, Andrew. They're very helpful.

I've been having these exact same conversations for almost 10 years, since these forums were born. Most climbing arborists seem to deny that twin line technique even exists, and that SRT is gear intensive and technically difficult. All they've learned is DdRT, most are married to hitch-based friction and very few climbers I've ever met truly understand how inefficient 2:1 ascent is as they have no experience with the other rope techniques as a point of reference. 2:1 DdRT may be all a man ever climbs in his Arborist career. He may _try_ SRT and attempt it solely with a hitch, but this is a guaranteed recipe for failure. Since twin line work is possible only with a dual ascender, without that piece of gear, the only remaining option is the one pretty much all arborists use; 2:1 DdRT.

I hope everyone can see why 2:1 DdRT is king in our industry. It's not because it's the best technique. It just started out as a practical and effective technique in the age of Manila rope, before there was any gear that could offer something better. Now, it's programmed into our tree climbing culture, both professional and recreational, generations deep.


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## Tree Machine

I have pointed out quite a number of differences between and advantages of one rope technique over another, however, I have (personally) found one and only one advantage of 2:1 DdRT over the 1:1 techniques, and that advantage is ONLY on the way around the crown and downward, not upward. I have to say, I find it a minor advantage at best, though it seems to be at the heart of it all, and that is
the 2:1 DdRT friction hitch system allows you to remove your hands from the rope and you will hang suspended and if your hitch is tied and dressed properly, you will stay suspended, full weight, on the rope.

In other words, you don't have to lock _anything_ off to secure your position. The hitch constricts the climb line automatically, that is the 'advantage'. It does it whether you want it to or not. Important point.

The setup I will show you in the next post, you are always securely affixed to the rope, but _you need to place it in lockoff,_ which takes me somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds. You are in lockoff only if you choose to be.



Moss said:


> for climbing in the crown it is very good considering all the other DdRT conveniences.


 I pointed out the one advantage that most consider to be an advantage. May I ask, what are all the other conveniences of 2:1?


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## Tree Machine

And if the DdRT convenience is one that is shared by the other two techniques, don't bother listing it, for example; DdRT does not twist the rope. Well, that is a basic advantage of the others, too.


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*dual descender*

TM I found you info on the other forum. Ill have to try the ATC.

The USHBA is made in a handled form? Would like to own one of these. With the tilt of handle - you descend.

With some slight mod. The rope could be ran through mini rack made with handle. Release handle- on hard lock. Rotate handle - descend.


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## Tree Machine

A rack is a poor choice, for this reason and this reason alone: tending slack (pulling the tail of the rope down through to progress upward) is less than reasonable. If you're just going down, albeit slow to put on and take off, a rack is a good choice.

Just as the new enhanced safety dual ascenders allow you to easily adjust back downward, a good descender should allow you to pull slack easily through it and advance the descent piece upward as you climb the tree. In this respect, depending on the tree's structure, you can go up, or down, on the ascender or the descender. As Moss and I agree, we like individual pieces that do very well what they do. To have each able to cross over into the other's 'job', well, that just allows you a lot of personal flexibility once into the crown. With a handled ascender (single or dual), you don't have to tend slack anymore. Advancing the ascender IS tending the slack. In contrast, going upward with a descent piece, you almost always have to pull slack through as you go. With a hitch, it's not an 'almost always'. It's an ALWAYS have to pull rope through. Friction hitch is never a self-feeding system. For this reason, I generally work off the duals on the way up and around the crown, and change over only when the work becomes a downward issue or I'm ready to come out of the tree. 

Little known fact: you can have ascenders and a descender on the same rope, at the same time, one in wait of it's mission while the other it actively being used. Moss has shown an example of this exactly, but opposite in order and function of what I might do. His ascender pushes up a friction hitch in wait. In reverse order I might be on my descent piece for a fork drop-thru at the end of a long limb-walk. I might leave the ascenders on the rope, attached still to my harness, but cams disengaged. Drop down using the friction piece, reactivate the ascender cams (you're secured now by BOTH devices since you are stationary) do the work vertically below your drop-thru point, and finally disengage the descender and go back up and through. This sorta move is not even possible on a 2:1 friction hitch system.

An ATC, I will address this in detail, but PLEASE, do not adopt a piece of gear because I show a picture of it. I'll use the same wording as Moss


> _Example_ of climbing.... (insert rope technique)



It will be nothing more than an example, not a method I will prescribe for anyone. The ATC has a great number of benefits and advantages but is overshadowed by one single issue; use it wrong, you can die.

Now, if you read Arboricultural accidents and injuries on any of the forums, you see men of our industry dropping like flies, a very disturbing and sobering read. Or read our industry death reports from the _TCIA Magazine_. If you see that a climber fell, and there's no indication of the tie-in point failing catastrophically, you have to read between the lines to exactly why he fell. Cops and reporters don't know the difference between a rope and a hitch, and may not be specific on whether a rope broke (yea, right) or a knot came untied. To them, the specifics may not matter so much as getting the report done so they can move on to the next. 

The men taking falls are quite likely climbing DdRT because that's pretty much all our industry climbs on. Why and what failed? The exact details are rarely ever spelled out.

Climbing is inherently dangerous. Do NOT assume because I show an example that you are safe to climb on it. You are safe, only if you successfully keep yourself safe. You _can not rely_ on a hitch or a friction piece to keep you alive. Your head has to be in the game and self-vigilance is the name of the game.

With that disclaimer, also know that I am in no way an instructor or a teacher, so don't assume that I am. I am a technician 8-10 hours a day, but in these forums, its show-and-tell, NOT instruction and guidance, got it?


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## Tree Machine

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> The USHBA is made in a handled form? Would like to own one of these. With the tilt of handle - you descend.



Umm, no. Not exactly. Tilt the handle you _downwardly adjust_. It is very important to know the difference between downward adjustment, and descent. They are different animals. Any ascender is downwardly adjustable, but only if your weight is off the system. 

USHBA, made of titanium alloy, brilliantly designed, a lightweight mechanical piece of art, though not a dual ascender. Being a single handled _single_ ascender, it can only do what a single ascender does. If you are hanging suspended on rope, SRT, the USHBA does not allow you to go back down on it. In my world, that limits your climbing options.

A dual *ascender* allows you to do anything a single ascender does, but also allows short 2:1 *descents* (in twin line mode, not SRT) while fully weighted and suspended on the rope. Any single ascender, USHBA or otherwise does not allow this.


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## moss

Tree Machine said:


> I pointed out the one advantage that most consider to be an advantage. May I ask, what are all the other conveniences of 2:1?



Besides zero configuration change needed to switch between ascent and descent mores (Singing Tree Rope Wrench solves that for SRT, nice!) the main convenience for DdRT (for me anyway) is how easy it is to remotely install and remove the rope from the TIP.

It may be that my typical climbing scenario doesn't match up well with typical work climbing. I'm often lead climbing in tall conifers where I have to constantly repitch my way up, SRT doesn't make sense. For a climber following, yes, I'll set them up SRT.
-Andrew


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## Saw Dust Smoken

*New*

The USHBA does not descend being loaded. Modification is needed. Put weight on other parts of same unit for descent.

TM. On trying new equipment. Slow and low first. Ten plus year of climbing here. 

Doing more mechanical climbing this past year. Looking for less friction up and down.


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## kevin bingham

moss said:


> Besides zero configuration change needed to switch between ascent and descent mores (Singing Tree Rope Wrench solves that for SRT, nice!) the main convenience for DdRT (for me anyway) is how easy it is to remotely install and remove the rope from the TIP.
> 
> It may be that my typical climbing scenario doesn't match up well with typical work climbing. I'm often lead climbing in tall conifers where I have to constantly repitch my way up, SRT doesn't make sense. For a climber following, yes, I'll set them up SRT.
> -Andrew



I think that people assume that with SRT you have to be trunk tied. On a large porcentage of my climbs I will tie off with a running bowline or a caribiner girth hitched. Throw your line up high clip and pull and climb to the next spot. I find the true advantage of SRT climbing comes when actually working the tree, ascent is whatever, it is the difference between 30 seconds footlocking fast or 5 minutes body-thrusting slow. In the scheme of the day, the ascent is not that important. its the next four hours that you are working your way around the canopy. Single line is the simplest and most efficient in in terms of rope management and friction management.


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## arborpros

> Ten plus year of climbing here.
> 
> Doing more mechanical climbing this past year. Looking for less friction up and down.



I find myself in the same position with roughly the same amount of time aloft. Do you think there is a reason for looking in to new techniques at this point of our careers? I find that I just did not know of anything else than what I was doing and I didn't have the money to buy the new equipment even if I wanted to. But in the last year I discovered a 2 in 1 lanyard, a few different rigging techniques, Treemotion saddle(holy crap!), and some new ways to assend. Makes life a lot easier and I love learning new things.

And they say money doesn't buy you happiness.


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## D Mc

Tree Machine said:


> A dual *ascender* allows you to do anything a single ascender does, but also allows short 2:1 *descents* (in twin line mode, not SRT) while fully weighted and suspended on the rope. Any single ascender, USHBA or otherwise does not allow this.



TM - What is the advantage here? Do you set a friction saver when working in this mode to prevent damage on thin-barked trees? 



moss said:


> Besides zero configuration change needed to switch between ascent and descent....



I'm sure by now both you and TM have tried out the Unicender and found it lacking? How so?



arborpros said:


> Do you think there is a reason for looking in to new techniques at this point of our careers?



Absolutely. I have been climbing a long time and to stop learning and adapting is ignoring the life going on around you. I can't tell you how often I think to myself, I wish I had known then what I know now. 

Dave


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## arborpros

I agree Dave. I have found myself just getting comfortable with my techniques to the point of not wanting to try anything else. If it isn't broke don't fix it you know? Now I'm getting a little older and more beat up and I'm thinking to myself how to make things easier. I wish I would have been more open minded in my younger years. It would have paid off.


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## moss

kevin bingham said:


> I think that people assume that with SRT you have to be trunk tied. On a large porcentage of my climbs I will tie off with a running bowline or a caribiner girth hitched. Throw your line up high clip and pull and climb to the next spot. I find the true advantage of SRT climbing comes when actually working the tree, ascent is whatever, it is the difference between 30 seconds footlocking fast or 5 minutes body-thrusting slow. In the scheme of the day, the ascent is not that important. its the next four hours that you are working your way around the canopy. Single line is the simplest and most efficient in in terms of rope management and friction management.



I also utilize a cinched SRT tie-off with carabiner or running bowline for certain moves in a tree, it's just that you have to climb back up to it to take it out or implement a pulldown of one kind or the other. That's near enough to keep it from replacing 2:1, plus I haven't tried your nifty singing tree rope wrench yet, that might change my mind.
-Anderw


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## moss

I was thinking more about 2:1 vs. 1:1 for climbing in the crown today, while I was climbing in the crown of course. I noticed I was doing something that 2:1 allowed to work well, I was working past some limbs that were slightly redirecting the path of the rope. With one foot on the tail with a Pantin and a free arm holding me off the limb I was passing, the other arm pulling rope combined with the Pantin power allowed me to climb past the limb easily. In a 1:1 situation I would probably need two arms on the rope to move up, I could do it one-armed but it's asking more to climb one-armed 1:1. If that makes sense. I'm not saying 1:1 is not good or can't work for that situation but wanted to show an example where 2:1 made it very smooth.

I will remain open to pushing more SRT into my crown climbing but the utility of 2:1 is pretty strong for me at this point.
-Andrew


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## Tree Machine

The Singing Rope Wrench was announced in Australia last week as Kevin's well-done video was circulated in that part of the world

The singing rope wrench was also given it's *first public debut* and demonstration, live, and on the world stage, at the 2010 TCIA Expo.


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## Tree Machine

Take a bow, Dawg.


Note Tom Dunlap there in the background.


The new SRT Rope Wrench hanging there on line to the far right.







Like TreeCo says, he's eyeing a special piece of wood, like raw gunstock, in the general shape of a stretched-out lamb chop.
I, too, am going to send Kevin Bingham my own choice of material. It's a short (16") slab of 6/4 teak I have had around for awhile.

From this, I will request two be made. I would like them bonded permanently together with my choice of industrial sealant-adhesive (to be sent with the wood) to create a _dual_. If the rope wrench goes easily up a single line, AND that what I say is true about how very similar twin line ascent is to SRT, then the dual rope wrench should perform more or less the same on twin as it does SRT. The load and friction duties to each side will be halved. There should be half as much heat generated, and half as much wear on the device. Half as much force needed from the climber to engage the friction. 50% less wear on the ropes as the forces of friction and pressure are being shared equally by the parallel lines. Again, the physics talking, not me.

There will also be twice the friction on ascent, but if one side give zero resistance, then if you double that, you're still at zero.

Here's how I see approaching USING a dual rope wrench. This is intended to crystallize your understanding of how the three rope techniques work:

*If I were to use that dual rope wrench, twin line technique, if the rope runs through one side, and is locked off on the other side, I am in 2:1 mode.
If I use both sides equally, I am in 1:1 twin line (DbRT)
If I anchor one end of the rope to an immovable object, and only use one side of the rope wrench, I am in SRT.* 

We already KNOW the rope wrench does _not_ twist the rope. If this dual thing works, it will fulfill all the basic requirements I demand of a current, cutting edge piece, and that is, be able to climb any one of the three rope methods with it. If it works, the next question is _how well does it work?_

I'll sign a waiver. I volunteer to be a test pilot, like Chuck Jaegermeister.

I'm excited. I totally _get_ this device. If anyone has any questions, go ahead and ask any time, even if we're discussing other friction strategies or methods of approaching any one of the other ascent/work positioning/descent modes. Kevin is here in the thread and the name of this thread is "Climbing Techniques".


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## Tree Machine

TreeCo said:


> I'm convinced that somewhere is some type of tree mother nature has shaped fibers that are almost optimum for the Wrench design. I'm going to dissect a few pieces tomorrow.



All these decades, let's say centuries, we tree climbers have been seeking the most efficient way to enter into and work the canopy.

TreeCo proposes that the solution might ultimately come from the tree itself.

That notion has credible juju. I second it.


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## Tree Machine

Here's a rough artist rendition of what a dual rope wrench might look like.
Not a bad bit of photoshopping, if I do say so myself.


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## Bermie

Whew, what a read!
Worth it though...similar debate going on at the House...

I tend to agree with Moss, SRT great for getting up with 2:1 for moving through the canopy.
I finally get what Kevin is talking about, cinching the SRT line to new TIPS to move throug the canopy, but as Moss says, it then becomes a bit of a problem retrieving the cinch going down...

What is the most minimal amount fo gear you'd use for an SRT ascent? I have a pantin, spare hitch cord, micro pullry, but no ascenders, would any basic configuration work for a short ascent, say 30'?

I agree, I'm tired of 2:1 for some ascents, particularly those where one is suspended away from the trunk, skywalking!


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## kevin bingham

i have been working on your dual rope wrench already!, thats cool, I was not thinking about two pieces glued together, but really just one piece of wood, thats possible too right? do they need to work independently of one another? no right. It just has to be a dual rope wrench... I ll keep you posted.


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## moss

Bermie said:


> What is the most minimal amount fo gear you'd use for an SRT ascent? I have a pantin, spare hitch cord, micro pullry, but no ascenders, would any basic configuration work for a short ascent, say 30'?



Not officially kosher but for short SRT ascents I just do a hitch and Pantin, but do the single loop footlock with my left foot so I can use both feet on the rope. It works fine. If you add a single handled ascender to your current gear set you can open up the possibilities quite a bit but stay minimal.
-AJ


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## kevin bingham

minimal SRT gear is a hitch. for any thing less than a 30-40 foot ascent, its SRT on only a hitch. I like a sit-stand footlock technique to preserve energy. the longer the ascent or the longer my day will be, Ill set up a frog walker with a pantin. and an upper assender (which can be a hitch if you want).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7LykX1OyJk&feature=related


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## Tree Machine

Bermie said:


> Whew, what a read!
> Worth it though...similar debate going on at the House...



Is _ANYONE_ doing twin-line?

Anybody?



The physics speak clearly in favor of twin line, for every advantage SRT can bring to the table, twin line can bring 2. Every technical move you can do with SRT, you can do with twin-line.


How do I know this with such certainty? Because I climb this stuff every working day of my life. And I have minimal, but specialized gear. Not complicated, nor bulky, nor expensive. Just different thaan what all of you are using. And it makes the world of 1:1 climbing, both SRT and Twin (D*b*RT), literally, at your fingertips.


I had a point I was trying to make with all this, but I've forgotten what it was.


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## Tree Machine

Oh, I am going to agree with Kevin on


> I like a sit-stand footlock technique to preserve energy


Yes. Being able to rest between strides, at will, is critical.

In competition, you use a prussik, and you fly up a rope. In real life, you are caring for trees and are _working_..... we are in an Arborist forum, correct?

Arborists earn a living caring for trees. CLIMBING arborists ..... we _are_ talking about climbing techniques in this thread.....


With that said, understand, this is a job that requires your being the safest and most efficient at doing what it is we do. For the treecare professional, the core is working on or in a tree's canopy. For the climbing arborist, Your entire, professional life revolves around the climbing part.

I'm not telling the seasoned professionals anything new. But this is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Arborist 101. It's where we talk about the bare fundamentals.


----------



## Tree Machine

I'll repeat what I've said in threads over the last 8 years,


Tree Machine said:


> I think tree climbers should be the best & safest, most advanced and most able climbers in all the worlds aerial disciplines.



That means being ABLE to do techniques others don't. The worlds aerial jobs are all SRT and they're years ahead of us. Well, until Bingham came to the forefront here in the last month and teaches us a breakthrough method on how to manage SRT on both ascent and descent. 

This could possibly open the door to _twin line_ climbing that does both ascent and descent.

The key point being this: If you have a device that allows you to work a twin line, it by default, must also allow you to work single.



If we could devise and develop THAT ability, we then hold options to work ALL THREE rope techniques, using whichever one, whenever that technique offers the most advantage and overall ease and efficiency.


All my fellow professionals locked in the one world of 2:1 doubled rope, it's just the hardest way to go about the work. Being sentenced to excess motion, inefficient rope ascents and 2X slack-tending, the ONLY advantage is you can go up and down on the same system.


Kevin has shown us an original way to do that in SRT. I say let's push the envelope a bit further and solve for 1:1 DbRT TWIN. It just hasn't been done, so Kevin, when I get my Dual Rope Wrench, this is what I'm shooting for. All three techniques, one device.


----------



## moss

Bermie said:


> I agree, I'm tired of 2:1 for some ascents, particularly those where one is suspended away from the trunk, skywalking!



It's interesting how different everyone's climbing motion is whether it's 2:1, 1:1 or 1:1 on doubled rope. A lot of it comes from who taught them when they first started climbing.

For me 2:1 climbing is the most efficient away from the trunk. My goal with 2:1 is to have a climbing motion as near identical to 1:1 as I can make it. Either way I believe it's possible to get your body mechanics the most efficient away from the trunk. I save body thrusting for short moves in the crown where it is the most productive for energy expended. If I have trunk contact climbing from the ground and I'm not pressed too tight against the trunk I'll try and put my hip to the tree so I can keep both feet on the rope, SRT or DdRT.

Tree Machine is a passionate promoter of doubled rope 1:1 climbing. I'm all for it but I believe how the climber moves on whatever system they use is very important for efficiency.
-AJ


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## TonyX3M

for me it is depending on weather - if tree is frozen solid with ice on it - it reduces the difference between 1:2 and 1:1 to almost 0- and if you guys want to go really old school- don't forget body thrusting- they still teach that to us in forestry school (and that hardest of them all IMO) - but being able to climb without any gadgets is essential in my book- just in (almost impossible) case physical devices should fail...
So I usually climb 1:1- but knowing the old techniques is a piece of skills just for emergency's- just as knowledge of aerial rescue....
BTW -I still can pull myself up on ol' Blakes with one hand- but of course I'm young and dumb and full of...:censored:


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## TonyX3M

*Tm*

Can you take a picture of your setup- maybe then I can show that to my boss and get some decent gear (so far old school is good enough- because new stuff costs money!)


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## Tree Machine

> Tree Machine is a passionate promoter of doubled rope 1:1 climbing.



I'm a passionate promoter of clean information.


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## Tree Machine

TonyX3M said:


> Can you take a picture of your setup- )



Yes, Tony. Yes I will. TreeeBing also asked to see my setup. I'll spill the beans, but first, I have gone on at long length and detail to make a couple key points, such that my intent is not misunderstood.

Then I will get something like this,


> Tree Machine is a passionate promoter of doubled rope 1:1 climbing.



NO, but with much love.


1:1 intrigues me with how simple and effective a technique it is, and paradoxically, how few have ever worked off of it. I don't mean _ascend_ with it, I mean WORK off of it. This is a quantum difference between competitive climbing and recreational climbing. Arborists carry tools and we make money using them. That means whatever kit you use should facilitate that purpose.


Here is a key point: I think it is possible that some day, a single piece of gear will be developed that allows access to using all three rope techniques, a versatility not even imagined at this time in history, not by commercial climbers, nor gear producers.




So, TonyX3M, the hard fact is, this single piece of gear does not exist, not even in my head. But in the quest to find this piece, I am passionate about bringing you along on the journey. And giving you clean information, scientifically-based, non-biassed, factual, reproducible information.


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## TonyX3M

I am on very limited budget and very far away from US - actually I have to go to neighboring Finland just to get a climbing rope- so I am about two years behind you guys in gear department- thats why I'm here - to see where and when ya'll go with it- its hard enough just to keep track with all the new developments- and I am NOT by no means perfect- so I try to get a piece of useful information out of every discussion or disagreement you guys have - thats why I dont write as often as you guys- TV,Jeff ,Old etc...- by the way- just reading the posts what they put up, I understood, how little I know about the trees- and in comparing to them I dont know :censored: about it!
But at least I'm trying - to get better first as person- second as climber and maybe-just maybe in one day I can call myself an arborist- but I doubt I ever will be on RS level - I dont think I just got an ability


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## D Mc

TM, I'm pretty sure Moss has a good understanding of the technique you are promoting. I see his choice of wording as lack of agreement more than lack of comprehension. 

I feel the same.

You keep repeating that your techniques are superior due to the fact that you make your living climbing trees. Well, I do also. Most of my career was accomplished through "old school" 2:1, standard arborist tree climbing techniques. Through necessity I perfected this technique to the point where I could accomplish anything required within the tree. It is not lacking in ability. It is lacking in energy efficiency. 

So the last few years, because I could see a more efficient way, I have been developing my ability to perform as an arborist using 1:1 climbing techniques. These are, as you state, a great boon in energy efficient movement for entering the tree. And also can be successfully used for movement within the tree.

I can accomplish all I need to do in a very efficient manner with one tool. The Unicender. I can go from 2:1 to 1:1 and all the variations in between. I can ascend with a rope walker style, without having to isolate both ends of the line, redirect by just tossing the tail of my line through a crotch, switch over to 2:1 if warranted, even use the Uni in a RADS 3:1 setup, if that is of benefit to the situation. 

I can see no gains by having to once again isolate my TIP, drag two lines with me everywhere I want to go with the associated concerns of friction and bark damage when those two lines are used in a 2:1 system. 


Bermie, working off a single line does not have to be complicated and will open up many possibilities for you and reduce your energy outputs by a substantial amount. Watch Kevin Bingham's videos. He can accomplish this WORK climbing method with very little gear or expense. 

After you have tried it, if you decide you like it, you can then experiment with some of the more elaborate systems.

Many complain about the cost of the Unicender, but at its current price of $280 I see this as a nonissue. Frankly, if you are making money doing tree work and you can't afford $280 for a tool this versatile, you are not charging enough money. So the deciding factor should not be the cost, but whether or not this specific tool will be of benefit to you; because there are many different ways to accomplish the same thing.

Dave


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## TonyX3M

*To Dave*

28 dollars is a lot of money for me - BUT never less I dont skimp out my climbing gear- as somebody in here told me- thats your life you holding on to AND TY for that!


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## D Mc

Tony, my apologies. I did not intend to diminish the difficulty and challenges of making a living as an arborist. It takes very little equipment to be a top quality and productive arborist. 

And you certainly do not need a Unicender. My statement was directed more towards those willing to spend hundreds of dollars collectively on saddles, saws, and fancy pulleys but can't justify the added expense of a very specialized tool that may make their lives easier and more productive. 

As I said, most of my career was spent in traditional rope and saddle, with basic techniques and was able to accomplish a great deal in this manner. 

But just because something was done one way in the past, does not mean there is not a better way. 

Dave


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## jefflovstrom

Get good on the system you are using and go from there. As you get better, you make more money, you pick up something new and keep going. 
Jeff


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## Neem

> TonyX3M Can you take a picture of your setup-





Tree Machine said:


> Yes, Tony. Yes I will. TreeeBing also asked to see my setup. I'll spill the beans, but first, I have gone on at long length and detail to make a couple key points, such that my intent is not misunderstood.



Can I join the queue?  Thanks TM


M


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## TreeAce

I use srt to get to the top of tall trees then switch over to drt once I get up there. The biggest reason for me to srt is that I have always found it to be a HUGE pain n my butt to get a clear path to the top if i go drt. But if I just tie off end of my climbing line then im on my way. I thinking setting ropes super high tends to be a pain. Although once done it can be pretty sweet. I use a big shot for the high set and that thing will really sling a throw bag. I am also amazed at how accurate it is. I also often use drt with a pantin and a handled acsender that is prusik corded back to my saddle. Then I have a blakes with a minder. This setup works well for me. I m not much good at footlocking but I also dont practice it like i would need to to get any good. I guess I started srt out of frustration with getting my line up high but yet without branches that will interfere with my ascent . Personally...I love all forms of tree climbing and think the whole thing is sweet and I would like to try out and hear about as much as I can.


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## jefflovstrom

TreeAce said:


> I use srt to get to the top of tall trees then switch over to drt once I get up there. The biggest reason for me to srt is that I have always found it to be a HUGE pain n my butt to get a clear path to the top if i go drt. But if I just tie off end of my climbing line then im on my way. I thinking setting ropes super high tends to be a pain. Although once done it can be pretty sweet. I use a big shot for the high set and that thing will really sling a throw bag. I am also amazed at how accurate it is. I also often use drt with a pantin and a handled acsender that is prusik corded back to my saddle. Then I have a blakes with a minder. This setup works well for me. I m not much good at footlocking but I also dont practice it like i would need to to get any good. I guess I started srt out of frustration with getting my line up high but yet without branches that will interfere with my ascent . Personally...I love all forms of tree climbing and think the whole thing is sweet and I would like to try out and hear about as much as I can.



So with all your experience, you must be a certified treeworker, right? If not, why not? How is you aerial rescue experience? 
Jeff


----------



## TreeAce

jefflovstrom said:


> So with all your experience, you must be a certified treeworker, right? If not, why not? How is you aerial rescue experience?
> Jeff



Iam not a certified treeworker. But I do have 22 years of experence . I learned about climber rescue when I first started climbing . That was at Hocking Tech in Nelsonville Ohio . I have always worked for small companies prior to starting my own gig. In ethier case I am pretty much a one man show as far as climbing goes . There has always ethier not been another climber (OMG..who gonna save me?!?!) or not one good enough that any real high level rescue would even be nessesary. As soon as work stops for the winter I want to start studying for ISA cert arborist. Cert treeworker would be sweet as well.


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## TreeAce

I am also thankful that I have never needed to rescue anyone or needed rescued my self. Being Thanksgiving eve n all.


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## jefflovstrom

Cool, just saying because it has not happened does not mean it won't. Got my TW in '92 and alot has changed. If I were you, I would go for the cert tw and then the cert arb. You never know what job is just around the corner.
Jeff


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## TreeAce

jefflovstrom said:


> Cool, just saying because it has not happened does not mean it won't. Got my TW in '92 and alot has changed. If I were you, I would go for the cert tw and then the cert arb. You never know what job is just around the corner.
> Jeff



You are right Jeff. Actually...from spending time on this site I have decided to crack down on PPE with my employees.Makes me feel stupid to have been so lax about it. Keep in mind that I am self employed. I am not sure what you meant about "job around the corner". But then again...it's true..you never know what may come up. Learning the newest techniques in aerial rescue could never be a bad thing . Even when your short on climbers to rescue, today..tomorrow may be different. Heck ...may even need to rescue some hack worken down the street someday. You NEVER know.


----------



## jefflovstrom

TreeAce said:


> I am not sure what you meant about "job around the corner". But then again...it's true..you never know what may come up. Learning the newest techniques in aerial rescue could never be a bad thing . Even when your short on climbers to rescue, today..tomorrow may be different. Heck ...may even need to rescue some hack worken down the street someday. You NEVER know.



Let me ask you a question. You as the only climber, ( and probably no rescue climb kit, first aid,) or a groundie that can come and get you because who ever would of thought a guy like me could ever be on the end of a kick back or a brake that don't work? You got someone to come get you? The bigger you get the more people you need to look out for. 
Quit trying to learn all these new tech stuff and focus on what you are doing right. You can then decide if you want to up-grade a little at a time and get to know each step. When you introduce a new tool, equiptment, or device, you train them all on it's use. I guess this was a long drawn out way of saying 'be careful'.
Jeff


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## TreeAce

so what are u really tryn to say? That I have equipment I don't know how to use? Or that I am not qualified to use it? I am just not sure I follow you , like exactly what is your point? Be careful...OOOkk thanks. Maybe its your polite way of saying don't post your 2 cents if you are not part of the certified club / click that I am starting to think is a big thing on this site.


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## TreeAce

maybe that was an over reaction. sorry if I went off . I am prolly way off Jeff.


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## treemandan

kevin bingham said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOgoxihou-8



Very nice. I would think the thing about this set up is the other end of the line would be in the way of cutting/rigging, falling branches, actually, I kinda know it would.
This is the one reason I try to keep the amount of time I am working on srt to a minimum otherwise its very fluid and appealing and I would be careful about showing off your rope wrench like that. I mean we all appreciate it but maybe you should patent your idea before someone else makes 6 million off of it.


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## treemandan

jefflovstrom said:


> Let me ask you a question. You as the only climber, ( and probably no rescue climb kit, first aid,) or a groundie that can come and get you because who ever would of thought a guy like me could ever be on the end of a kick back or a brake that don't work? You got someone to come get you? The bigger you get the more people you need to look out for.
> Quit trying to learn all these new tech stuff and focus on what you are doing right. You can then decide if you want to up-grade a little at a time and get to know each step. When you introduce a new tool, equiptment, or device, you train them all on it's use. I guess this was a long drawn out way of saying 'be careful'.
> Jeff



Yes Jeff, its lonely up there for some of us.


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## treemandan

TreeAce said:


> so what are u really tryn to say? That I have equipment I don't know how to use? Or that I am not qualified to use it? I am just not sure I follow you , like exactly what is your point? Be careful...OOOkk thanks. Maybe its your polite way of saying don't post your 2 cents if you are not part of the certified club / click that I am starting to think is a big thing on this site.



Heh heh, its Granpa Jeff! Hell, 10 years ago I would be running for my life right now huh Jeff?


----------



## Tree Machine

It's nice getting to know you guys.


> Get good on the system you are using and go from there. As you get better, you make more money, you pick up something new and keep going.
> Jeff



Jeff, this has been said 11,866 times by members of these forums. You, personally have said it just over 8,000 times yourself.


LOL.


I have a really whacky thought, call me crazy, but IF,...... IF a gear setup allowed you direct and immediate access to the far-advanced end of the profession, and a noobie was given this system, he would have a series of advantages and abilities that a 22 year veteran might never know, and that an SRT climber would adopt simply because of speed and ease.

That piece, or system of pieces is around the bend. We really needed to solve for up/down SRT as we've been throwing tries at it for about the last 10 years. The unicender did it. And guys really, REALLY dug into the idea that a cord hitch needs to be the friction system for SRT, but Kevin Bingham cracked the up/down SRT code with a two-part, multi-piece system where the friction hitch is _part_ of the system. 


Now the goal, mine anyway, is to ascend twin, 'get to the top' switch midline into a friction piece that works both lines identically, or independently, with the option to use single line if and only when it serves you better than twin.

But on the way up, you have a Handsaw, maybe a pole pruner, likely a chainsaw. Occasionally cabeling gear. 

Whatever friction gear you use, you need to be assured it will do as it promises and never fail and allow you hands-free abilities so you can work.
Arboriculture 101.


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## kevin bingham

treemandan said:


> Very nice. I would think the thing about this set up is the other end of the line would be in the way of cutting/rigging, falling branches, actually, I kinda know it would.
> This is the one reason I try to keep the amount of time I am working on srt to a minimum otherwise its very fluid and appealing and I would be careful about showing off your rope wrench like that. I mean we all appreciate it but maybe you should patent your idea before someone else makes 6 million off of it.



There is currently a patent pending on the rope wrench. One of the things of the rope wrench that I personally love is the nature of it being very simple and easily handcrafted by the climber. 
I would love to make a ton of money on the rope wrench. but I would also love to see climbers coming up with their own creative versions. I have already seen a couple. As long as they don't go into business selling them with out working with me, than I fully support their efforts and improvements. 

I also want people to be extremely careful when jumping out on to single line, there are a lot of things that need to be thought about that you dont have in dDDRT. I think we need to do a lot studies on the nature of various hitches on rope. I am not finding a whole lot on the subject.

I would train a new climber on 1:1. I would not bother with ddrt but just mention it and let the climber try it at some point to see what he is missing.

On your other point, If there is any reason I am going to have rigging or large branches swinging around, than it means than I Probably will have a block placed somewhere in the top of the tree. This means that I will have to return to near my tie in Point at some point during the climb anyway so retrievablity is of no concern. I will simply tie a running bowline at my tie in point and use a shorter rope. When I clean my rigging at the end of the day, I tie my rigging line to the eye of my bowline, grab my block and descend. I use the rigging line to pull out the running bowline. If its a removal, than I just cut my way down the tree. 

For large tree pruning, I will tie off at the base of the tree, Often times I will be a couple of trees away through the canopy and run out of rope. I will tell the ground person to untie the trunk tie and I will pull my rope through the canopy, drop it down to her and she will tie it to the new tree. My record is 9 trees without touching the ground. I am most often nowhere near the backside trunk tie. It can be quite dangerous and quite easy to burn 150 feet of rope through the canopy and end up at the end of your rope. Something to be mindful of.


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## Mike Cantolina

Great thread.

Treemachiine,

I understand how much faster 1:1 is versus 2:1 but isn't it true that the effort would be about the same? Especially if I use an adjustable false crotch with a pulley? I would have to move twice as much rope but with only half the effort. (provided friction is minimal) This also solves the problem of isolating your line. I realize there is much more force at the tie in point.

I do agree with you about having to deal with so much slack after the ascent(limb walk return) and believe as you that one mechanism that will accommodate all 3 methods should be our goal.


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## Tree Machine

Mike Cantolina said:


> Great thread.
> 
> Treemachiine,
> 
> I understand how much faster 1:1 is versus 2:1 but isn't it true that the effort would be about the same?



I have always termed is motion. Twice the _motion_. Half the effort. In a zero friction setting tha math works like 2:1 is half the forces necessary to hoist a load.

But in our world you are not hoisting a load. You are hoisting yourself.
And if you're in the 1:1 world you no longer hoist yourself. You travel up the rope. You use every advantage possible to minimize the effort in getting up and around. That means minimizing overall motion. 2:1 eats your effort and drinks your sweat.
SRT and twin do not.


----------



## kevin bingham

There are times in SRT where I am glad I am able to do a pullup. There are certain times in SRT . Especially when carrying a big saw when I would not mind being on 2:1. I will sometimes go to 3;1 climbing in these situations. Sort of a (RADS) One of the things that is necessary is to transfer more work to your legs. 

I find In SRT I am standing more, either on the rope or on the tree. 2:1 climbing is done a lot with the arms because you can. This is something to get used to when changing over. I try to minimize how much I do with my arms, pulling yourself up the rope hand over hand in 1;1 will wear you out real quick. I do it now and again and it is definitely faster than in 2;1 but exhausting. 

I end up climbing the tree a lot more in SRT. sometimes to ascend I climb out leads and kind of zig zag up the tree, sort of like switchbacks. climb out a lead, swing back to the trunk, walk up the next branch, swing back, etc. But I definitley try to use my leg, butt, and core muscles and preserve my arms for my handsaw.


----------



## Tree Machine

Couldn't have put it better.

Removing slack tending from the menu of efforts is rather huge. For the 2-1'ers who have accepted this as part of the reality of climbing, moving onto something that involves either zero slack tending, or 1/2 what you're normally used to is efficiency hurdle #1.

Not having to hoist yourself and depend on your arms so much, efficiency hurdle #2.

Covering twice the distance with somewhat less than half the motion, huge efficiency hurdle #3

 
This is 1:1 vs 2:1.

Now comparing 1:1 SRT vs 1:1 twin, we pick up a few more nuggets of efficiency in Twin, because twin can do everything that SRT does, but often more effectively and easily. I've challenged myself on this thousands of times. 

Twin, no base anchoring.
Twin, sharing of friction duties, 1/2 to each leg. SRT, one working leg only.
Twin you can 'drop in' to DdRT instantly, if need be.
Twin on 11 mm means a hand grip on rope diameter of an oval 22 mm
Twin distributes forces and heat.
For climbers who like fatter ropes, twin gives that hand, as well as feeling of being on a system that 'feel meatier'.

Basically, two lines can act as one, or two lines can act as two, but one line can only act as one line. These actions give advantages on ascent or downward adjustment.

Again, not dogging SRT or DdRT. The comparisons and differences and advantages of one rope technique over another is at the center of it all, not that Tree Machine prefers one over another.

I prefer the technique that serves me best in the moment of whatever tree, and what I happen to be doing in the tree.

If you go SRT, you are SRT, and that's that. If you set up for DdRT, you get 2:1 DdRT, and that's that. But if you go twin, and your device can handle the two ropes either together, or independently, you have the option to be 1:1 twin, 1:1 SRT or 2:1 DdRT, you choose in the moment. I know this is hard to wrap your head around, really, I understand how you could think, "How is that remotely possible?"

I'm just saying, with 100% confidence and certainty, that it is possible.


----------



## Tree Machine

kevin bingham said:


> Especially when carrying a big saw when I would not mind being on 2:1. I will sometimes go to 3;1 climbing in these situations. Sort of a (RADS) One of the things that is necessary is to transfer more work to your legs.



Here is where you're having to determine and set up, either in advance or in the moment, your climbing rig to accommodate what it is you're doing.

On this specific note, a twin line, over a single line, offers double the rope for footlocking, making footlocking much more certain and simple.

And it doesn't matter whether you're out hanging in space, or up against a trunk, footlocking is just plain easier than single.


Note that both 2:1 DdRT *and* SRT give your feet only one line to grip. Asecond, parallel footlocking line offers twice the friction in a place where that makes a substantial difference.

And because the difference is so substantial, you will find that adding a foot ascender into the mix is entirely unnecessary, eliminating one of the 'pieces' that make up the system.


In further comparing and contrasting the systems, we should count the physical number of pieces in the system required for it to function as intended. I've seen SRT setups requiring 6 or 8 pieces, kind of a lot of parts if you ask me.

Kevin, can you list all the components of the wrench system?

I'll start:
Rope Wrench
cord from wrench to connector
friction hitch
micropulley
stainless steel clevis
The connector itself

5 piece, six if you count the connector (caribiner)

In a 2:1 DdRT you might throw an additional dogleash, a friction saver and the multiple components necessary to set and retrieve that remotely.


Any of the gear setups for any one of the three rope techniques can be seen as piece-intensive, based solely on the number of parts, or action-intensive depending on the number of hands required to operate the system, or motion-intensive depending on the number of motions needed to accomplish your tasks. Or expensive depending on how much each of the components to the system costs.

Any system should be judged on its stand-alone merit. The above partially outlines what should be looked at regarding the physical parts and pieces.


I feel that if mankind can develop a space shuttle and international space station,we can come up with a ONE-PIECE device that can handle all three rope techniques. Am I out of the park on this one?


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## jefflovstrom

ellyka112 said:


> Climbing old school on a blakes is a good technique to Know but you are going to want to move on to some type of split tail system pretty quick. You're climbing on what is called a closed system. A split tail/prussic/eye to eye is the way to go. Allows you to incorporate a dynamic system where you just unclip a carabiner and throw the running end of your line around different tie in points. Much faster and easier than having to untie and retie a blakes hitch every time you need to change TIP's. This will also reduce the need for redirects, although redirects come in very handy for positioning as Tree Machine has mentioned.



I think you are stupid.
Jeff


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## Tree Machine

Now, now Jeff. We're all in this together.


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## jefflovstrom

Tree Machine said:


> Now, now Jeff. We're all in this together.




Jeff


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## Tree Machine

Jeff could be saying the _old-school approach_ to training climbers is stupid.



We've been training climbers in this 'hardest way first, next hardest way & next' and then a few years down the line you're on the SAME 2:1 system, only with a lot more pieces and complexity and time setting up, dressing, installing, retrieving and putting away. Every single technical climb you get all the working parts and pieces together & tie what needs to be tied & seated this ritual of before (the climb) and after (the climb).


Jeff's point may be that we've done it this way since the age of Mariners on ships with sisal and manila rope. Synthetic ropes changed the way of modern climbing, but up until very recently have TREE CLIMBERS begun a migration to 1:1 methods. If the gear is sound and does what we want it to do, is it necessary that we start at the difficult end and work our way up, or should we start at the easy end and learn the more difficult methods later?


Seriously, why not start with a setup that allows you full confidence and safety and ease of setup and ease of use. Master the skills necessary to do the the job of an arborist and then _go back_ to more difficult and inefficient methods and you possess, then, a fundamental and _direct-experience basis_ to compare the different techniques and the different ways they are approached.. 


See right now, our entire industry weight is heavy to the 2:1 side, and they may have no basis to compare to 1:1. This is because the ideal device does not exist, NO ONE has the ability to compare, except for a few guys on experimental prototype gear. *As far as arborists, we just don't have the ideal 1:1 gear yet and therefore are not able to do side by side testing 2:1 vs the 1:1's.* We are denied this information, nothing at fault, this is just the way it is.


But if the gear were to come around, and both 1:1 techniques were made so frickin easy that you now climb in utter disbelief of how easy footlocking really is, would that not be the more logical place from which to start out and teach modern climbing?

Just something to think about.


----------



## treemandan

So basically running this srt for working the friction given out by the singing wood piece just absorbs just enough friction to keep your other friction hitch from binding down tight? You are just reversing the procedure for a rappel on a figure 8 where the 8 would be at you belt and the friction hitch would be above?
I say TM, you are doing a marvelous job describing this and yes, I quit doing tree work for a little bit cause trying to get into a tree used to suck. Deep rep yer way.


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## treemandan

I am one who likes to keep it simple and find I get annoyed with to many gadgets but I will most likely be wittling myself a rope wrench for Christmas.


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## Kottonwood

*who needs to footlock*

What is all this talk about footlocking and all this crap?

Real arborists use this

http://www.sherrilltree.com/Profess...eTeks-Wraptor-Motorized-Rope-Ascension-Device


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## jefflovstrom

It used to be if you can't foot lock, you were not hired.
Jeff


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## Kottonwood

haha if anyone showed up on my jobsite with that thing he would not be hired


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## jefflovstrom

What thing? Foot locking? 
Jeff


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## Kottonwood

no that ridiculous motorized ascender that I posted a link to


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## jefflovstrom

Oh.


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## kevin bingham

PatriotTreeCO said:


> What is all this talk about footlocking and all this crap?
> 
> Real arborists use this
> 
> http://www.sherrilltree.com/Profess...eTeks-Wraptor-Motorized-Rope-Ascension-Device



Getting into the tree is such a small part of tree work. To me, that 1-10 minutes of the day really isn't part of the discussion. use a complex ropewalker system, the wraptor, body thrust, footlock, or fly.... whatever, so your in a tree somewhere. so what. 
Branch access and work positioning are what real arborists are concerned with and the wraptor can do none of those things.


----------



## Kottonwood

well said, I hope people caught my sarcasm, I wouldn't never spend that kind of money on something that simply gets me in the tree..... unless it's a bucket truck


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## treemandan

PatriotTreeCO said:


> well said, I hope people caught my sarcasm, I wouldn't never spend that kind of money on something that simply gets me in the tree..... unless it's a bucket truck



do you have 125 foot or better sticks out there?


----------



## Kottonwood

I wish we did, but no. Biggest thing you really see around here is 80' or so. 

So do you guys use stuff like that on bigger trees?


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## jefflovstrom

PatriotTreeCO said:


> I wish we did, but no. Biggest thing you really see around here is 80' or so.
> 
> So do you guys use stuff like that on bigger trees?



Oh my, yes! Hahaha! Fun stuff.
Jeff


----------



## treeclimber101

I love to see guys with a belt full of #### all it does it make your knees hurt from the weight , A throwline or pole and I can access any tree , if I am climbing alot of little guys to prune than I will bust out the ladder ...I can body thrust as fast as just about anyone I ever worked with can climb a rope , as far a positioning tye high and clear all those little hang up branches and you can access more than 50% of the top with 1 crotch...If i need to redirect I just use the other end of my rope and pull myself to the work , and I have been working with a 2 over 2 and won't use anything else ..


----------



## Kottonwood

I like your style 101, That is pretty much how I operate, except I use a ten foot lanyard to redirect or pull myself around, also for safety because I usually free climb to enter the tree. I can use my climbing rope as one lanyard and the 10 ft as another so I am never untied. I just changed over to a spliced rope though, so now I can quickly unclip and reset my rope without having to untie anything. It's nice but I still trim most if not all of the tree from one TIP, and I don't really use a pole saw or pruner in the tree. I walk out and use my handsaw. I find with a pole saw I always seem to leave it behind and have to go back for it. I know my technique is old school, but it's how I was trained and I am fast with it, so for now it works.


----------



## treeclimber101

jefflovstrom said:


> It used to be if you can't foot lock, you were not hired.
> Jeff



I can foot lock single and double line , can I hang????


----------



## treeclimber101

PatriotTreeCO said:


> I like your style 101, That is pretty much how I operate, except I use a ten foot lanyard to redirect or pull myself around, also for safety because I usually free climb to enter the tree. I can use my climbing rope as one lanyard and the 10 ft as another so I am never untied. I just changed over to a spliced rope though, so now I can quickly unclip and reset my rope without having to untie anything. It's nice but I still trim most if not all of the tree from one TIP, and I don't really use a pole saw or pruner in the tree. I walk out and use my handsaw. I find with a pole saw I always seem to leave it behind and have to go back for it. I know my technique is old school, but it's how I was trained and I am fast with it, so for now it works.



The quickest way to get someone hurt is to over teach , I also carry a long lanyard but I hate when the loop fools on a branch below me or along side , so I keep it hanging long from my belt ... I was taught with a saddle and rope and pole thats it ... Even a throwline if needed but all this crap they have out now is a joke by the time these fancy new climbers get workways for the I am tossing branches towards the chipper , I do like a nose bag for a drink and my phone ...I carry a short throwline sometimes there too..


----------



## Kottonwood

Agreed, Often times I am up the tree and working by the time other climbers are still messing with their throw ball or big shot. But I will say that if I was climbing some 150' tall monster I would probably try something else. most of the trees I deal with are 50-70 ft.


----------



## TreeAce

I often use my wooden poles (cuz they are lighter) with a pole saw head minus the blade. I use that hook to keep setn my rope . I also tend to use both ends of my rope n kinda "leap frog" the ropes . Hint-Tie a "monkey ball" or "throwing knot" on the nonworking end of your climbn line n clip it to yo saddle BEFORE you start up. Saves time n effort later. I am sure lots of people already know that but I feel like I invented it cuz nobody showed me. I thought it up myself. When I first started climbing back in the day, an old timer told me that the best thing about about a throw bag n string is that they fit nicely in a purse. Not sayn I totally agree with that but I think it's funny n he did have a point. 

R.I.P John Bradstock ...A fine teacher n a hell of a TREEMAN.


----------



## Tree Machine

TreeAce said:


> When I first started climbing back in the day, an old timer told me that the best thing about about a throw bag n string is that they fit nicely in a purse. Not sayn I totally agree with that but I think it's funny n he did have a point.



Here's a modern approach to the same point:

the best thing about a throw bag n string is that they fit nicely on a self-deploying, tangle-free reel.









I'm passionate about a few things. Advantages that make an Arborist more money, and save time or effort, or do whatever he's doing more efficiently, I am all about these things. 


Setting a rope is really, really important, because as soon as that is done and the line put away, you can get on with your ascent. Fast, efficient high sets in one or two tries is your goal. Actually ace-ing the shot or throw is always the goal. I like eye terminations on both ends of my climbing line, I really avoid knots in repetitive places and favor the instantness of using some connector to both the shotline and the climbing rope.


Kevin Bingham, will my dual rope wrench allow eyed terminations to pass through it?, or have you figured out how to attach the wrench midline?


----------



## TreeAce

Tree Machine said:


> Here's a modern approach to the same point:
> 
> the best thing about a throw bag n string is that they fit nicely on a self-deploying, tangle-free reel.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159706&stc=1&d=1290905388
> 
> 
> I'm passionate about a few things. Advantages that make an Arborist more money, and save time or effort, or do whatever he's doing more efficiently, I am all about these things.



LOL..Ahh Tree Machine...He was being sarcastic. Ya know..like they are for girls. It was along time ago n I AM NOT SAYING I TOTALLY AGREE.


----------



## kevin bingham

the line winder reel is sweet. Throwline is the highest paying skill I have. I make more money per hour with the throwline than anything else I do. 

The dual rope, spliced eye havin midline attachable,rope wrench has been designed and is ready for production, I know what it looks like. You know how that is. Ill try to give you a call later this week.


----------



## Tree Machine

kevin bingham said:


> the line winder reel is sweet. Throwline is the highest paying skill I have. I make more money per hour with the throwline than anything else I do.



Duuuuuuuuuude!!!! It's so true! OMG I'll bet you ACE a par 4 and just smile and say cha-ching. 

you hop a little horizontal branch let the bag drop, dropppp, in-hand, unclip bag, clip on rope eye and pull like XXXX, pull, 
the rope is traveling up, up, about to the top, a mighty, YANK,
up and over.

Keep pulling, baby steps backwards, pull, faster you shmo, pull, pull, pull, pull _YEA!_




Unclip rope, clip shotbag back on, and reach down and *pick up the shotline reel.*


THIS moment, right then, you reflect ever so briefly that placing this 75 foot shot, and getting a rope up and over the tie-in point has all taken pl_ace in the span of the last 45 seconds;_ just about the same amount of time that it has taken you to read this passage. 

But the clock is still running

46, 47, you take the shotline winder and grip one of the stainless steel swivels, place the line behind your knee to control tension, and
_Wind_.

Go!

10 seconds, nine....reel it mo fo, GO MAN wind it 

Wind 

WIND, 

8


7

reel in , go go goi go 


4



3



2
put the bag over, 
under
*DING!!!
*

YOU WIN!!!!! AHHHH HHAAAA!!!!!!

You did some DAMAGE mister, think about buyin your az$ a PIZZA!



THAT is how we make money with a bigshot and a reel, what under $200 _total_?

That makes your bigshot and reel combo an investment. I call it the poor man's bucket truck.


But unlike the bucket truck *we can go anywhere*, to any tree, under pretty much any condition.


Yea, $75 for the shotine winder, comes with *200 feet* of orange Fling-it and a wiregate micron clip for rope or bag attachment, da bomb.



He who can sink consistent shots and set ropes with swiftness like, well,, like the one minute example up above is what I call an excellent set. One minute, beginning-to-end, ready to put the reel away, ready to climb.

The bar has been set. This is what Kevin Bingham _does_. That is exactly what he's talkin about, how highly profitable you are to your own self if you can set rope and manage shotline duties in, well, in average any more, I am consistently under two minutes, line reeled in rope set and ready to climb.

cha

ching


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## Tree Machine

kevin bingham said:


> Throwline is the highest paying skill I have. I make more money per hour with the throwline than anything else I do.




I had to read it one more time. That is pure poetry.


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## TreeAce

That was beautiful man.


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## Tree Machine

There are things I want for my fellow climbers, and having things be as easy and profitable as possible for you, so you can be more efficient and be easier on your body and make more money.


THAT is what I will go out of my way to share.


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## Tree Machine

But not to derail this thread on 'Climbing Techniques', we mentioned the affordable price on the shotline winder, 
I have a question.

What will you be charging me for this commissioned piece, a custom dual rope wrench?


Honestly, I think it should be treated as art, as it is a one-of-kind creation, and you are the sculptor.

How much, 12, 20 thousand?


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## Tree Machine

Kevin, yoo hoo. How much to buy a dual rope wrench?


----------



## Tree Machine

Hey, I checked at Treestuff.com , a paying sponsor here at this fine forum. 

They are offering both the single _and_ the dual wrench. 


The single wrench is made of classic hardwood, hand-crafted and set up as ready-to-use. It is whatever price that Treestuff.com lists it as.


Now the double|elbuod , this one will be made of _steel_. It has side-cheeks and opens up much like the side plates on a pulley, allowing to attach to the single, or the twin line, *MIDLINE attachment*, allowing a very instant on/off wherever you happen to need that. No feeding rope in from the tail. Clip on and go.


This steel, dual rope wrench, I have been told by treestuff, will retail for $400.

I will buy it, but I have to assume the price would drop like a rock once a manufacturing setup is devised. I think a fair price would be in the range of $250 to $300.

So build on, Kevin. I give you permission to continue with the commission for the first-ever, dual rope wrench.


ps *Treestuff.com *is very excited to be working with you on this project.
The entire climbing community is looking very seriously at your innovative approach.


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## Kottonwood

kevin bingham said:


> the line winder reel is sweet. Throwline is the highest paying skill I have. I make more money per hour with the throwline than anything else I do.
> 
> Yeah I am starting to think that's a great point. I was thinking that it's a waste of time, but if you are good with it and always get your crotch on the first shot then it is definitely worth it. I haven't seen to many guys that are actually good with a throwline though, in that case it's faster to just climb the tree.
> 
> Looks like this weekend I'll be spending some time in the park with a throwline.


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## Tree Machine

PatriotTreeCO said:


> kevin bingham said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like this weekend I'll be spending some time in the park with a throwline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good on you.
> 
> The importance of this point can not be overstated. Just accept that this is the case, that *if you're a tree climber*, commercial or recreational, the only thing that stands between you and getting up in that tree is having a rope in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Now think about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keeeeeeep thinkin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what were we thinkin about....???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OH!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU GETTING INTO THE CROWN.
> 
> 
> 
> And you need a rope set pretty much exactly where you want it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you get the rope set???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guys. I 'll spell this out out in detail because this is Arb 101: You throw, or you bigshot.
> 
> 
> That's pretty much it. The Aussie site has the http://www.#########.info/f18/12-guage-line-launcher-1533.html
> 12-guage line launcher, the crossbow thread, etc,
> 
> 
> But every person reading this thread is a climber. A TREE climber.
> 
> 
> And the only thing standing between you accessing the crown is getting a rope set. Do you see how critical this is??? Everyone, collectively,.... tree bretheren and sisterthen, how do I put this best? No rope set, no climb.
Click to expand...


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## Tree Machine

Setting a rope is this critical. It is the door to entry.


You set a rope in one minute, you are a valuable man. Or woman, Hi Bermie.

If I may derail this thread for just a moment, I will punctuate the importance of rope setting. I had a climber in for the day, we looked at the tree he would do, 60' tall tree up between two houses. He said he could do it, no problem, I'll take it from here. I go and get my saddle, chainsaw, climbing line, rigging rope everything any of us would grab if you're gonna rig down a tree. But I have a secret weapon.






I have a shotline winder and a Bigshot.


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## TreeAce

Well....there has to b more to this story . Feels like someone tore out the last 2 or 3 pages of a good book .


----------



## Tree Machine

I drop all my stuff, saddle up, lay my climbline at the base of the tree, ready to uncoil.


The shotline winder looks like this:







Holding it, you drop the bag through, come around and over, and flick the reel to the ground with a swift frisbee spin, you are holding the shotline bag and line. This takes, literally, one or two seconds.

You put the shot bag in the Bigshot pouch, pull back,....



aim.....


That looks like this:







Anb, Ka POWWWW! you let it fly.

An easy par-two shot, but when you drain it, it's now time to focus, guiding the bag down, near the climbline, OK, it's down, unclip bag clip on eye, GO!,

go, go , go!

pull, 

pull,



up over!


Pull,

pull,

3


2



1


Unclip rope, clip on shotbag, toss to ground.

Pick up the shotline winder.

Pinch the line behind your knee, now reel in as fast as you can, GO!


Reel in,

_fast_!


You are reeling in shotline at a rate of, are you ready for this, and you can measure and time this out yourselves,
Ten feet per second. _3 meters per second._ Say you nail a 75 foot shot on the first try (which was the case this day), get a rope up and over in one minute. 150 feet of shotline lay flaked on the ground, wherever you chose to put it. Personally, I pull as fast as I can wearing grippy gloves, and walk in baby steps backwards, shelling out line in a light pattern.

Reeling in 150 feet of line at ten feet per second, you do the math
but whatever way you look at it, the answer is _money_. One and one half minutes and my line is put away and I'm ready to climb. So I climb.

I attach my saw, the rigging rope and I head up. It wasn't until I got to my tie-in point that I could see over the house and in between, the other climber, still throwing and trying to get a rope set. I set a couple slings and friction control, rigged my rope to this snapped-off, dangling 8" diameter limb hinging precariously over a boathouse and boat and dock. Just doing what I do, I make the cut and lowered it a few feet, and then locked it off. I was going to rappel down, then belay the limb down, guide it off the dock and up onto shore, but I saw an opportunity. Plus I had slings set and would have to climb back up and get them.

I always like to take the path of laziest resistance, you know making good decisions to have things go easier than they otherwise could. I just let the limb hang a moment,
"Hey, climber, knock on the door for me please."
Pound, pound, pound
"He needs you" (points to me)

"I need your help or your boat could be smashed."

I giggle. I'm thinkin I'm pretty funny. The guy is paying me $150 for this technical little piece, and I'm putting him to work as my ground guy.

"Hey climber, give him your helmet when he comes out."

So as he's putting on his shoes, I'm slowly lowering the limb, lightly touching the tip to the dock and locking off. Owner arrives,

I boom out, like the man from Oz, "You are going to pull, and I am going to pay out line. Get a good hold." I lower another couple feet.
He takes the suspended limb in hand,
"OK, I want you to summon every molecule of testosterone in your body.
When you start to *go*, commit to going with _authority_, are you ready?
You let me know when you are ready." I lower another couple feet, _perfect_.
"Ready." he says.

"OK, so am I. See your chain link fence ahead? You are going to set this limb next to that fence."
"No way,"
"Way."
"No wayyyy."

"Way."

"READY, AND, _GO_!

This is where I try to keep my laughter in control.


"GO, GO, GO!"

And before you know it. It is over. I graciously offer 'my boss' a job as my groundguy. I rappell out, and his 6 year-old thinks this is all the biggest hoot, so I stop, suspended right over top of the boathouse, feet touching, I did a tapdance, and then a ballet and had this kid laughing til he peed himself. When I got onto dry land, my hired gun had _still not gotten his rope set_.


That's what happens when you take 15 minutes to set your rope. It's called shotline nightmare. His experiences with the shotline and my experiences with the shotline are remarkably different experiences. It all boils down to the gear; a launcher on a pole, and a way to manage your shotline and a shotbag. Under $200 bucks. The guy I'm paying $30 an hour is still fuddling with an antiquated throwline system and I'm starting my cleanup.

This is what is meant by the shotline / linesetting being a high paying skill.


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## Tree Machine

This is all very much on-topic.


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## Tree Machine

After getting the proper cutting-edge gear (shotline winder, bag, pole and bigshot) the rest is learned. I find grippy gloves an essential part of all of this.

When I _don't_ wear grippy gloves, I have a remarkably different experience than when I do. They are an asset.

Treestuff.com has a special on just that package,
Shotline winder w/200' of line, bigshot head, 6 foot pole with boot and a pack of a dozen grippy gloves, $200 even.

The rest is rope and saddle.


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## TreeAce

Right on! I like E. Big Shot is a very sweet tool . I have one. I am not ready for the shot line reel . I am still excited about the fold up cube. lol. I always have a groundie to put it away will I start climbing . It is cool though . I must say that I somtimes have problems after the throw line is up . That seems to be the easy part . It seems to lend itself better to SRT which I am working on getting better at.


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## kevin bingham

Man, i wish my throwline experiences always turn out like that one TM. My system is nowhere near that dialed in. Lol. Ive got cubes, a linewinder, different sized lines, different sized weights. Sometimes i've used water bottles. Throwline is always challenging, thats what Ilove about it. I feel like somedays i'm on somedays i'm off. I love it always though, its better than golf.


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## Tree Machine

It's not always, Kevin. It's _consistently_.




I prefer throwing, but the whole key to success here is knowing WHEN to break out the bigshot.

I probably do 4 out of every 5 trees throwing.


You _are_ ready for a shotline winder, and that's not up for debate.
Send your Mom this link, do whatever you've gotta do, quit suffering.


Your shotline can never tangle. This is a rule. If your shotline tangles, you are screwed. You have done it wrong, or your system failed you. This is a timesuck that is NEVER EVER acceptable or wanted or needed. It's a morale-deflator. 

A tangle-free, instant, dependable deployment, and fast put-away time setup is currently available. You are worthy.


If it usually takes you 4 minutes to set a rope, and you move into a system that will not ever tangle and your setup, set and breakdown time is now two minutes, what is the difference?

2 minutes of time, right? On the surface, yes. But this is adopting a 100% gain in time savings and efficiency. If time is money, 100% more money. You double your income, literally.

Who is not ready for that?


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## Tree Machine

Not talkin specifically to you, Kevin, just the readership in general.



After the proper gear, line setting / rope setting is a learned skill. Sometimes the very easiest of throws will elude me 4 or 5 tries. The better you are at it, the more valuable you are to your own self. I mean it. 


Like I referred to earlier, I feel it's better to learn and start out with the most advanced gear, practically speaking. It makes the learning curve more gentle on ya.


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## Tree Machine

Hey Treeco,

1/8" slickline.....

You throw with this stuff?
This picture below is almost ten years old, when the bigshot first came on to market. Decent shotline had not been invented yet.

You still use that stuff? I thought it went extinct.


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## Tree Machine

That stuff used to give me fits.

Of course, I wasn't using a cube. I was trying pouches, purses, buckets, backpacks and baskets. I tried boxes and bins, bucket bosses, tarps.


Maybe I wasn't experiencing it properly. Maybe the line was OK, but how I was managing and stowing it was the problem. I used to have such shotline headaches. Mebbe I'll give 1/8" another chance.


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## kevin bingham

I havent gone back to slick line, but I have been migrating toward thicker lines and heavier bags for most of the work I do under 60 feet. there are tools for every job and if most of my everyday stuff is under 60 feet, why carry around the real long super skinny line that is meant to be rocketed, but tangles easily. The thicker dynoglide is kind of cool.

Tangles are a real gamechanger on the job site. they can cost hundreds of dollars.


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## Tree Machine

Bingham said:


> Tangles are a real gamechanger on the job site. they can cost hundreds of dollars.



I remember long, long ago having a tangle that I knew would be cheaper to wad up the whole 180 feet and throw it in the trash and start anew. I hate that thinking because I save everything and I'll milk the last use out of anything, but taNGLeS! # <"#&@*

This can drop your climbing operation to its knees. This is how shotline mishaps can cost hundreds. You screw things up badly, and the only option you've got is to unsnarl the line, get it flaked back out and try again. You can't hand this off to the ground guy because you know he'll make it worse, so you pay him to hang out, hopefully not _watch you_ while you endure the pain of screwing with tangled line....


NO THANK YOU!


It doesn't have to be this way, really, ever. I know, because I know.


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## Tree Machine

Because there's proper shotline management gear out there now, 
a  $75 shotline winder and your choice of bag, you are in. A bigshot can be added on down the road. You can be a professional (hand-thrown) line setter for under a hundred dollars, state of the art, professional. It'll serve you for years. That's a good deal.


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## 7Distel

Tree Machine said:


> ...Treestuff.com has a special on just that package,
> *Shotline winder w/200' of line, bigshot head, 6 foot pole with boot and a pack of a dozen grippy gloves, $200 even.*
> ...



TM, that looks like a good buy, but couldn't find it on the Treestuff site. Is the "special" over ... or, just didn't look in the right place? You got a link?


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## Tree Machine

It's there, I'll get them to dial it in and I'll bring you the link upcoming. 

For now, contact Treestuff directly, just call Luke, at 1-877-408-7337 say I want that reel & Bigshot deal for 200. He'll know what you're getting. He'll ask if you use the yellow Jameson poles or the orange Marvin poles. He will put the rubber boot on, add a Bigshot head, the winder w/200' . $200.

There is no shotbag included because a shotbag, and your desired weight, is kind of a personal thing. If you have Luke add a 10 oz bag (he'll know the one) for like $208 you are ready and complete and dialled-in. You are now a professional line setter using today's current edge technology. Hardly at all painful. You will have different shotline experiences now. You've turned a corner where the hassles have been eliminated and you get to focus on the fun part. Trust me, it's _all_ fun now.

Good on you.


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## pdqdl

I am a bit confused by the line winder. It looks like it would pile up lots of twists on the line.

If you feed line off of the side, each loop that falls off adds one twist. If you then roll it up with a winder, the twists remain. Do that very often and you will have a LOT of twists in your line.

What part of this do I have wrong? You wouldn't like the line-winder so much if it made the throw line all twisty-kinky, so I must be missing something.


BTW: I use a cube, and flake it back into the cube as I pull the rope up. I keep getting snarled up into twigs on the ground if I don't, so it is always ready to stow or shoot again when I pull it in a little more carefully.


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## jefflovstrom

pdqdl said:


> BTW: I use a cube, and flake it back into the cube as I pull the rope up. I keep getting snarled up into twigs on the ground if I don't, so it is always ready to stow or shoot again when I pull it in a little more carefully.



Yup, that is why many don't use it. (flake it back into the cube!)
Jeff


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## pdqdl

The cube is the only way I know of to keep the string off the ground and out of the twigs. Even the rope winder makes you leave the string on the ground while you are pulling the rope up into the tree.

I'm not sure what you are saying there, Jeff. I guess I am slow; could you explain it to me again?


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## Tree Machine

Have you guys ever gone fishing with a spinning reel? It's an open-face reel that deploys more or less identically. You can cast all day, reel in, there's no special magic. You never, ever have to physically un-twist the line, and it never piles up twists, so what's up with that?


The shotline winder works the same, with the same results, except the shotline does unwind itself if there's any amouint of rotation. The shotbag will rotate opposite on it's way down, spontaneously.


I don't know how to explain it, except in complete honesty, I will say the rotation of the line is never an issue. It's not even something I think about. 
If it were a problem, I wouldn't be here telling you it's not a problem, 
but it seems like,
some of you are projecting onto it a problem that does not exist.


lovestrom said:


> Yup, that is why many don't use it.



People sometimes base their decisions on unfounded assumptions. There's always a bit of apprehension moving from an old standard piece of gear, because amidst any inefficiency or disadvantage, you get used to it and live with it and it becomes 'normal'. It's not until you experience something better do you realize how much a former method truly sucked.



Until you experience the shotline winder firsthand, I wouldn't make any presumptions. Let the winder do it's own show and tell, or talk to someone who's using one, rather than believe a statement from someone who DOESN'T have one telling you about why other guys who don't have one don't use them. Really. think about this.



BTW, I too own a cube. I'm very clear on the performance differences. They're a magnitude apart. I'm very honest in saying this.


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## Blakesmaster

Have you had any issues with the line loosening up and possibly unspooling off of the winder when left on the ground? Almost seems that it would need to be kept under constant tension to keep the loops from tangling on the reel.


----------



## Tree Machine

I'm sorry if this thread seems derailed, but line-setting is critical, as there is no rope technique until there is a rope set in the tree.


I have read for years the problems that folks have with managing the shotline.
I don't have those problems, simply because I'm using a different piece of gear.

On this one, it would be ashame if I kept it secret, as I did for about 8 years. 
This past season I bought out the last run of some reels stacked in a warehouse, 20,000 feet of line, and they are being offered through Treestuff, in an exclusive arrangement. Exposure of the shotline reel is being done solely in the arborist forums, as there is only a limited number of these available, they are NOT being offered in anyone's catalogs and you won't see ads for them in magazines or e-publications of any sort. You could view this as a lack of popularity (if it were the real deal, I'd be seeing it all over....) but it is a marketing strategy _not intended _to sell as many as possible as quickly as possible. 

I'm not going to make any money, in fact, all the time I have sunk into this, if I were to translate that to lost work hours, I would never recoup that opportunity cost, no less make a profit.

This one's a labor of love. I love my arborist community and will go out of my way to share something that can be of benefit to them.


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## Tree Machine

Blakesmaster said:


> Have you had any issues with the line loosening up and possibly unspooling off of the winder when left on the ground? Almost seems that it would need to be kept under constant tension to keep the loops from tangling on the reel.



Very good point. Unspooling off the winder, you must mean of the reel were dumped upside down, would a number of coils come off?


I had that happen with brand new line, if the line is wound loosely, yes, loose coils could peel off. I wind them with some degree of tension.

If you were really sloppy about winding it up, like creating a big cone, you could intentionally create a problem, like with just about anything.

Tension is important. You place the line between your thighs. This acts as a fairlead, keeping the shotline in a straight line and you can control the tension going onto the reel.

Yes, Blakes, a very light amount of tension is necessary for reeling in. And reeling the line on in a consistent manner will allow consistent throws and shots right off the reel. The learning curve on this is pretty short. You'll learn everything you need to know within the first few uses.


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## 7Distel

Tree Machine said:


> It's there, I'll get them to dial it in and *I'll bring you the link upcoming*. ...






opcorn:





Tree Machine said:


> Have you guys ever gone fishing with a *spinning reel*? It's *an open-face reel that deploys more or less identically*. You can cast all day, reel in, there's no special magic. You never, ever have to physically un-twist the line, and it never piles up twists, so what's up with that?
> 
> The *shotline winder works the same, with the same results*, except the shotline does unwind itself if there's any amouint of rotation. The *shotbag will rotate opposite on it's way down*, spontaneously. ...


:agree2: *BUT:*

TM, I believe you're right about the shotbag rotation will take out enough twist to NOT be a problem. However, just saying, the open-face reel is a poor analogy to the Shotline Winder. They, in fact, operate the same only when the line goes out. They operate quite differently when the line comes in. The open-face reel does not rotate when the line goes out and the open-face reel does not rotate when the line comes in - the bale winds the line around the stationary reel. 

Conversely, the Shotline Winder does not rotate when the line goes out and the Shotline Winder does rotate when the line comes in. That's where the confusion is and the open-face reel analogy isn't helping. 


No offense - just trying to clear up some confusion


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## Tree Machine

Ahhh, I see your point clearly, 7D


When I was pointing out the identical nature of a spinning reel with the shotline winder, though I failed to point it out, I was referring _specifically_ to how the line is deployed.


You're 100% correct in catching this.

Upgraded analogy: If the shotline winder were a fishing reel, it would be spinning reel casting out, and a bait-casting reel reeling in in. More accurate? I appreciate you pointing this out. Cheers to you.


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## pdqdl

Well...That was my point to begin with when I asked the question. 

I think the reason you don't have twists piling up on the line is because you may be pushing them down the line to the free end when you clamp it between your thighs for additional friction.

When I watched the video posted with that device at Sherrill, I immediately assumed that they were attempting to clear the twists as well as control the tension. If it works well, stick with it!


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## Tree Machine

pdqdl said:


> Well...That was my point to begin with when I asked the question.


It was a good question.



pdqdl said:


> I think the reason you don't have twists piling up on the line is because you may be pushing them down the line to the free end when you clamp it between your thighs for additional friction.



It's a reasonable thought, though, if this were true, it would show itself as a piling up of twists on the ground by the time you get almost all the line on the reel. But this doesn't happen. The bag un-rotates on it's way down, naturally. You can also let the bag hang a few feet off the ground, remove it, and the weightless line will relax.

I really don't ever have to do this. Don't generally have to think about anything but fire (or throw) the shot, set the rope, reel in like a madman. Some twist in the line doesn't affect performance. Too much twist in the line would, but for whatever reason it just doesn't get to that point (the point of hockles).


When you're winding in line, the tension you put on with the clamping of your thighs is really minimal, just enough to keep the line taught and straight. You can also throw the shotbag/line across the lawn and reel it in as the bag bounces across the lawn. This is almost too much tension. It takes very little tension. When you're reeling in you should feel very little resistance at the reel. You shouldn't have to crank with ANY sort of force, just fast. You can reel in slowly, but fast is one of the advantages.


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## Tree Machine

pdqdl said:


> When I watched the video posted with that device at Sherrill, I immediately assumed that they were attempting to clear the twists as well as control the tension.



Not sure what device you're referring to, not the shotline winder. The shotline winder isn't offered through Sherrill. There are a limited number of these available, total of 300 worldwide, exclusively through treestuff.com .

IF twists were pushed downstream and pile up, the result, eventually would be hockles. If this were to happen, you would feel hockle coming through your clamped thighs. Stop, take a second, pull the hockle, keep winding.

Next shot let the bag hang suspended for a few seconds before it hits ground.
Or, remove the rope after the set. Walk the reel back to the truck, wind up the line with no shotbag on it.

It's really a user-friendly device. So much so that it doesn't come with instructions. These ARE the instructions. You learn about it in the threads, order one from treestuff and when you get it, you go to work.

If you already have a cube, that's great. Getting a winder allows you to test their performances side-by-side for a first-hand, experience-based assessment. If you get a bag stuck in the tree, you have a back-up system to keep your ropesetting duties in forward motion.


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## pdqdl

Tree Machine said:


> Not sure what device you're referring to, not the shotline winder. The shotline winder isn't offered through Sherrill. There are a limited number of these available, total of 300 worldwide, exclusively through treestuff.com ....



Oops. Y'er probably right about that. I guess I was just running on memory.

That's a bit scary! I can't rely on myself anymore ??


Thanks for clarifying the twisty-line concept. I hope you can understand where I would have gotten the idea from. Twists in climbing rope are one of the biggest problems, and without at least using a "cube", a throwline is usually a nightmare. So I tend to be cautious.


----------



## Tree Machine

As well, you should be.

I've been very cautious about _bringing_ the shotline winder to production.
I had shared it now and then over the last, well, since Arboristsite has existed, around 10 years. 

At first, the winder worked OK, but the high-tech shotlines hadn't been invented yet. We were still in the polypropylene age, monster-thick line with low breaking strength. The BigShot was released shortly after that.

Here is a picture of the very first reel. 






Here it is after I ran over it with the truck and attempted a duct tape fix.





My very first picture of the new BigShot, 1998 or '9 I think.


----------



## Tree Machine

I won't feed you any mis-truths on this device. I have used it thousands, possibly tens of thousands of times, many, many different shotline bags,





different lines,





Different size bases, different reels comparing one to another






different ways of winding,





different reels, like this one that failed completely,





If twisting was a problem, I would have known that long, long ago and would be using the only other alternative, a cube.

This thing has gone through pretty extensive testing and refinement over the last decade.

I wasn't going to release it until I was absolutely sure it would work consistently and predictably.

Last year I succumbed to forum pressure and began producing some for use by others. The feedback was great. I took out a loan and bought a pickup truck load of reels and 20,000 feet of shotline, refined the design even further, decided 200 feet of line was more advantageous then 180, and today it is available from Treestuff.com for a limited time.


----------



## Tree Machine

And here is what it looks like, more or less, today.

Actually, the current model has a double-thick base for a better 'flywheel effect.' It also has two swivels for winding and a winder handle so you can try a couple different ways of reeling in.












The bases are held together with both a high-tech adhesive-sealant and 8 fasteners, like the one on the right.


----------



## Tree Machine

I apologize terribly for the extended de-rail of this thread, but with these last three posts, and pictures, I have summed up the entire history, up to the current day.


Anyone remember where we left off regarding *climbing techniques*?


----------



## kevin bingham

Here is a version of twin line climbing. what do you think about this TM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNLhGDXEbc&feature=player_embedded


----------



## pdqdl

Correct me if I'm wrong, tree machine. Doesn't success at your doubled line technique depend on getting an isolated branch?

I can see all the merits of the plan, and the video posted by Kevin was pretty neat too, but I just don't see very many opportunities for isolating a single branch. 

When I started to upgrade my old-school ways, I bought a two ring friction saver with a grand plan to start trying out some new stuff. I quickly realized, however, that most of the trees that I see are either impractical to isolate a branch on, or too low to appreciate throwing into the tree to begin with.

How do you manage your branch isolation, in order to use both lines parallel?


----------



## Tree Machine

Use your hand and your wrist. Pull the line. Swing and drop.
Isolating the line is one of the funnest things I do. Kinda difficult to explain in words, though.

It pays to get good at it. If I can't get it within a minute I let it drop and go SRT.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Tree Machine said:


> Use your hand and your wrist. Pull the line. Swing and drop.
> Isolating the line is one of the funnest things I do. Kinda difficult to explain in words, though.
> 
> It pays to get good at it. If I can't get it within a minute I let it drop and go SRT.



So why not go SRT in the fisrt place unless you like messing around?
Jeff


----------



## Tree Machine

I like to use SRT when it serves a greater advantage, like an ace in the pocket. I have a plan B. 

I could go over the advantages of twin line again, but that would be repeating former posts.



Yesterday's job is a good example. Heavy leaner, the trunk is lying inches from the cable line and electric line. After setting the rope into the crown side of the lines, I'm ready to go up. If I wanted to go SRT, if I anchor to the lower trunk, the tension in the climbing line could pull the rope up into the wires. If I throw the tail of the line _over_ the wires and then anchor to the base, any slack in the line could allow the climb line to droop into the wires. Unusual example, but it happens.

I could SRT that by installing a biner a-on a butterfly once the shotline/rope reaches the tie in point, clip the biner around the shotline and pull the shotline, and the climbing line back down through the biner until it chokers up top, then use that leg. But what you would have now is two parallel lines, and you are going to use _one_ of them.

That may make sense if you have a single ascender, but I work with duals. Options for an easier ascent are right there, anchoring to the trunk is not necessary. With a dual ascender you have the option, before each and every ascent, to choose, in the moment, which rope technique will serve you a greater advantage. SRT is a bit more technically demanding, and some days I choose SRT just because I want some additional challenge.

But 9 times out of ten, I'm going to take the easier method because tree work is difficult enough on its own without my making it more difficult than need be.


----------



## Tree Machine

Isolating the tie-in and tracing the shotline back down parallel is definitely not a difficult moment in my day. It's actually a moment i enjoy very much and look forward to. Learn to get the bag to swing, and the rest is pretty much natural.


Each an every one of you can trace a line back down. You just have to believe you can, and you will. It is literally that simple. You move your wrist, you bend your elbow. You _concentrate_ and _focus_ for the next 60 seconds and somewhere in that time you get the shotbag back down and over whatever obstacles on the way down.

60 seconds, and a rope is being clipped onto the shotline and pulled back up and over. Now, I like to crank this out, thirty seconds. Rope, up, over.

Unclip your set rope, clip the shotbag back onto the shotline, toss it to the ground, pick up the shotreel, step over the line, squeeze between knees or thighs, 4 or 5 seconds,
wind like a madman for up to 15 seconds
Thread the bag around and through the reel, 2 seconds. You are done and ready to climb.

The key is to drain the shots, or hit it on two. Seriously, set the bar high on this, if you want to extract maximum value out of it. If you can ace or deuce 4 out of every 5 trees you throw or bigshot into, you are of maximum value to yourself. If you're 5 or 10 minutes, you suck really bad.

It is of great benefit to the climber to nail down this skill set and get the best tools possible to do this. That's called *a bigshot, a reel and a cube*. Low cost of entry into that discipline, eh? Oh, and you need a fiberglass pole for the BigShot, another $30 bucks.

$200 Treestuff.com special + a $75 cube, you are in. http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=1563. That's a bargain. You can spend more than that on a blender.


----------



## Tree Machine

Can we get back to "Climbing Techniques"?


----------



## the Aerialist

*I'm trying this out*



Tree Machine said:


> Can we get back to "Climbing Techniques"?



As a LockJack user for the past couple of years I just bought a Unicender to try out. Here is how I have it rigged up:






The blue Prussic cord is used with a Kong "duck" rope grab to adjust the distance from the Unicender to get a longer pull on ascents. The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.

Comments?


----------



## treeslayer

Aerial Arborist said:


> As a LockJack user for the past couple of years I just bought a Unicender to try out. Here is how I have it rigged up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blue Prussic cord is used with a Kong "duck" rope grab to adjust the distance from the Unicender to get a longer pull on ascents. The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.
> 
> Comments?



looks EXPENSIVE. and rather complicated. I'm way behind, but get it done and look good doing it.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## the Aerialist

*looks Complicated; works easy*

Complicated rigging for simplicity of operation. Just pull on the tail of the rope and the Unicender captures your progress. If spike-less I use a pantin or foot stirrup to assist.


----------



## Tree Machine

I have to be critical of my own system, so will be of others.

Yours is a 2:1 system, with the complete set of disadvantages pointed out in past pages that apply to 2:1 systems in general.

I've seen complicated, multi-piece systems, but yours may be a new champion in the arena of sheer number of pieces within a single system.

I don't doubt this system works well and does what you want it to do, and compared to a friction hitch system your performance may be better, but you are still limited in the sense of the limitations imposed by a 2:1 system + the time costs of setting and retrieving the friction saver + the time costs just setting up the system prior to the ascent and breakdown after descent.

The actual function of the system may be simple and uncomplicated to use. However, the overall set-up, and the _sheer number of individual pieces_ makes this rather complicated in an overall sense.

The Futura, allowing you to get a longer pull, still flies in the face of a 1:1 system where your 'pull' is half that of a 2:1 system to begin with. You still hoist yourself with twice the motion, as opposed to propelling yourself upward with half the motion.

A positive I note is very little loss of purchase in your system, as you would have with a collapse/elongation of a hitch. Clean. 


> Just pull on the tail of the rope and the Unicender captures your progress.


 Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Your major losses (besides the 2:1 issue) would be saddle sit-back losses, but that's another subject.



> The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.



The Futura replaces a larger single ascender. In this system, you would not be using a dual ascender. If you had a dual ascender, you would not be using this system. You don't specify a dual handled dual ascender or a single handled dual ascender, the former being quite a bit bulkier than the latter.

One of the goals that's been proposed is creating a system that will allow you to climb 1:1 SRT, 1:1 twin or 2:1 doubled. Yours is set up to do 2:1 doubled only.

For what it IS, your deserves applause. For what it DOES, it gets thrown on the stack of the many dozens of setups already out there for 2:1 systems. I would rate yours as new school 2:1, but 2:1 nonetheless. The advantages appear to be somewhat over that of a friction hitch setup, but enough gain, apparently, that you've gone to the extra effort of setting up "Complicated rigging for simplicity of operation." I believe there can be simple rigging with simplicity of operation, one that allows *all three* rope techniques to be incorporated at will.

I very much appreciate the effort invested in creating this, and it looks like it would be smooth. I have not seen a setup quite like this, kudos to you for pushing the creative envelope, and thank you for sharing.


----------



## the Aerialist

*I get it that 1:1 > 2:1 for pulling dead weight*

Yeah, I read the thread before I posted. I understand your point about the inefficiencies of 2:1 climbing vs. SRT (something I intend to learn more about) but here I am like 99% of working climbers using the old way.

Not that I'm not trying to advance. Using the LockJack for a couple of years was a major step forward for me. The Unicender is impressive, but works very differently than the LockJack. With the LockJack I can climb the rope above the device, with the Unicender you climb the from below it, hence the blue prussic cord to get more distance under it. I'm just experimenting with a new piece of gear, I've used it twice in the field so far.

Got a link to some SRT techniques here? How does my LockJack and Unicender fit in?

Here's a video me using this set-up for the first time. I do struggle a bit, but hey I'm 63 years old, and already was up that tree once that day:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/mLVymugpwS8


----------



## treeslayer

Aerial Arborist said:


> Complicated rigging for simplicity of operation. Just pull on the tail of the rope and the Unicender captures your progress. If spike-less I use a pantin or foot stirrup to assist.



And you're 63? wow, bro.


----------



## Grace Tree

Aerial Arborist said:


> Here's a video me using this set-up for the first time. I do struggle a bit, but hey I'm 63 years old, and already was up that tree once that day:


We're the same age so I feel for you brother. Some people stopped to watch me once and I asked my partner what they wanted. He told me that they though I was a mime pretending to climb a tree. I think I would have flush cut those limbs and gone up with a flip line. Seems like a lot less effort to climb your way up than to pull your way up. Stubs always come back to haunt me. Buy a Wraptor. You'll thank me latter.
Just a thought,
Phil


----------



## the Aerialist

*beam me up!*



Small Wood said:


> We're the same age so I feel for you brother... I would have flush cut those limbs and gone up with a flip line... Buy a Wraptor...
> Just a thought,
> Phil



I would have too, but the girth was more than my flip line could handle, besides, I wanted to try out the Unicender for the first time. I've got a capstan winch I've been tempted to hook-up. I could have just asked my ground guys to haul me up I guess.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Aerial Arborist said:


> As a LockJack user for the past couple of years I just bought a Unicender to try out. Here is how I have it rigged up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blue Prussic cord is used with a Kong "duck" rope grab to adjust the distance from the Unicender to get a longer pull on ascents. The yellow Kong "futura" single handed ascender replaces the rather bulky dual ascender.
> 
> Comments?



Comments? Really? Are you sure you what to hear them?
Jeff


----------



## jefflovstrom

TreeCo said:


> Great derail!
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing.



Yeah, ya need your own room!
Jeff


----------



## the Aerialist

jefflovstrom said:


> Comments? Really? Are you sure you what to hear them?
> Jeff



Sure, opinions are like #######s, what's yours?


----------



## jefflovstrom

Aerial Arborist said:


> Yeah, I read the thread before I posted. I understand your point about the inefficiencies of 2:1 climbing vs. SRT (something I intend to learn more about) but here I am like 99% of working climbers using the old way.
> 
> Not that I'm not trying to advance. Using the LockJack for a couple of years was a major step forward for me. The Unicender is impressive, but works very differently than the LockJack. With the LockJack I can climb the rope above the device, with the Unicender you climb the from below it, hence the blue prussic cord to get more distance under it. I'm just experimenting with a new piece of gear, I've used it twice in the field so far.
> 
> Got a link to some SRT techniques here? How does my LockJack and Unicender fit in?
> 
> Here's a video me using this set-up for the first time. I do struggle a bit, but hey I'm 63 years old, and already was up that tree once that day:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/mLVymugpwS8





Are you saying you are the guy climbing? don't look 63 to me and that climber is lame!
Jeff


----------



## Blakesmaster

Aerial Arborist said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/mLVymugpwS8



Wow. 63 huh? How long you been doing this?


----------



## jefflovstrom

Aerial Arborist said:


> Sure, opinions are like #######s, what's yours?



I just gave it to you!
Jeff


----------



## the Aerialist

*The Evolution of the shot bag*



Tree Machine said:


> I won't feed you any mis-truths on this device. I have used it thousands, possibly tens of thousands of times, many, many different shotline bags,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since you were talking shot bags, have you ever used one of these:

data:image/jpg;base64,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

Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5wejEqSE2w

I rather like the rope gun though: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa6F1q8cD0M

~ Enjoy


----------



## jefflovstrom

Oh, I get it! That is what is looks like to watch a 63 year old climber. Except that climber don't look 63.
Jeff


----------



## the Aerialist

*I am 63 and lame...*

In the past year I've broken 12 bones: 8 ribs, a collarbone, a shoulderblade, my sternum and my L1 vertebra. All in all though I'm doing OK to be climbing at all now, so walk a mile in my gaffs before you feel all that superior.


----------



## Saw Dust Smoken

*set up*

Looks simple and functions.


----------



## Saw Dust Smoken

*climb*

TM got the shot line reel ordered today. Thanks for the invention. Back to climbing ascend inventions. Working on a couple things.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Aerial Arborist said:


> Sure, opinions are like #######s, what's yours?



For sure no climbing production. 
Jeff


----------



## Tree Machine

> TM got the shot line reel ordered today. Thanks for the invention. Back to climbing ascend inventions. Working on a couple things.



Cool. Thank you for trying something new. We'll look forward to your honest assessment. 
Please share the 'couple things you're working on'. Every contribution gets us closer to a breakthrough. This is the place to do it.

Aerial Arb, brother..... at 63.... you inspire me.


Hey gang, I have watched the French 1:1 twin line dual prussik video 9 times. I have also taken the method to the trees, in normal weather, in rain on wet ropes, and in the deep-freeze on frozen ropes. It's been a whacky December, however, fertile and thorough testing grounds for new approaches.

I need to pull together a few more images together so I can report to you on this.


----------



## the Aerialist

*Laugh all you want ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> For sure no climbing production.
> Jeff



I'm sure I've already dropped far more wood than you ever will Jeffy, here's a video of me working a Pine in a production setting, post some of your work jr, it's easy to be critical from the peanut gallery.

From the quality of your posts I'd say you're just trolling for attention, so I'm off to find the "Ignore" button for you Jr.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZETs4g49Thk

:chainsawguy:


----------



## Blakesmaster

Aerial Arborist said:


> I'm sure I've already dropped more far wood than you ever will Jeffy, here's a video of me working a Pine in a production setting, post some of your work jr, it's easy to be critical from the peanut gallery.
> 
> From the quality of your posts I'd say you're just trolling for attention, so I'm off to find the "Ignore" button for you Jr.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZETs4g49Thk
> 
> :chainsawguy:



Did you miss my question? How long have you been climbing?


----------



## the Aerialist

*40+ years*



Blakesmaster said:


> Did you miss my question? How long have you been climbing?



Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you.

I guess I was 20 when I bought my first set of gaffs, but I bought them to rescue parachutists from the trees they landed in. Some years later I got a job as a groundie to learn the trade. Three years later I was climbing for money.

Now I own my own tree service and am looking for someone half my age and half my experience to be my lead climber. Many have tried, but none have made the cut yet.

I still pull brush and feed the chipper, but I don't handle big wood on the ground anymore. I can still drop more wood than a four man crew can handle in a day. (which is why I still have to feed the chipper when I come down).


----------



## jefflovstrom

Aerial Arborist said:


> I'm sure I've already dropped far more wood than you ever will Jeffy, here's a video of me working a Pine in a production setting, post some of your work jr, it's easy to be critical from the peanut gallery.
> 
> From the quality of your posts I'd say you're just trolling for attention, so I'm off to find the "Ignore" button for you Jr.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZETs4g49Thk
> 
> :chainsawguy:



So you have been in this biz more than 33 years? 
Jeff


----------



## treeslayer

jefflovstrom said:


> So you have been in this biz more than 33 years?
> Jeff



he was in that pine for at least 3 years.........


----------



## the Aerialist

*Will work for Pizza...*



treeslayer said:


> he was in that pine for at least 3 years.........



LOL ~ that Pine was a Sunday afternoon job, I started at 11:00 with only my wife for crew. My job was to bring it down but I did let them (the homeowner and his friends) use my chipper. I did use one of my 084s to cut up the trunk for them while I waited for them to finish chipping the branches. We were out of there by 4:00 after taking a break to eat pizza (bought by the homeowner).

I charged $1200 for my efforts. What do you make for half a day?


----------



## the Aerialist

jefflovstrom said:


> So you have been in this biz more than 33 years?
> Jeff




Your math is as questionable as your intent. I only saw this because it was quoted by another candidate for ignore. But I checked you out Jeffy, here's the money shot from your career: 







Jeff spends his days working the big ones!


----------



## Blakesmaster

I got bored yesterday and watched a few of your videos. This is you too, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei9kE95-chs

Jeff can be abrasive and he sure likes to rile new guys on the site up but I'd take him off ignore as you could learn quite a bit from him. Props for climbing at your age and posting vids of your work but, like most, there's a lot of room for improvement.


----------



## the Aerialist

*Let's get this thread back on topic ...*



Saw Dust Smoken said:


> Looks simple and functions.








The Unicender is simple, it is simply a half a rack, something used by rock climbers and cavers for decades. All those caribiners on it complexify it a bit, but the setup is modular that way.

The cambium saver is best replaced by a pulley to cut out the drag of pulling the rope through it. I'm still experimenting with it, but I believe the best way to use it is by getting a rope with an arborist pulley up over a limb and tying it off at the base of the tree. In that way, should the climber become incapacitated, the ground crew can lower him down.

Let's talk about rigging and stop the #### waving that seems to be all some here want to do.


----------



## the Aerialist

*Constructive criticism is always welcome ...*



Blakesmaster said:


> I got bored yesterday and watched a few of your videos. This is you too, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei9kE95-chs
> 
> Jeff can be abrasive and he sure likes to rile new guys on the site up but I'd take him off ignore as you could learn quite a bit from him. Props for climbing at your age and posting vids of your work but, like most, there's a lot of room for improvement.



Thanks for taking the time to look over videos of my work. I see plenty of room for improvement when I look at them myself. If you have any specific suggestions or critiques please feel free to voice them.

The video you linked to was the 10th large Poplar tree we took down that day, and the most challenging. It was right over the wires and street with a bad lean in that direction. They were all dead, as you can see when my ground guys snapped a major limb off before I could even put my saw to it. Ten of those trees in one day with a four man crew is pretty productive. We made good money on them.

As to Jeff, when you make a habit of poking sticks at puppies, don't expect It to work out the same when you try it on an old junk yard dog.

Maybe he learned something about slagging off newbees. I'll take him off ignore and see if he actually has something to contribute to this forum besides snide remarks.


----------



## beowulf343

Blakesmaster said:


> Jeff can be abrasive and he sure likes to rile new guys on the site up but I'd take him off ignore as you could learn quite a bit from him.



Yeah, jeff taught me the proper usage for this smiley: 
Don't know what i would have done without his guidance.


----------



## treeslayer

Aerial Arborist said:


> LOL ~ that Pine was a Sunday afternoon job, I started at 11:00 with only my wife for crew. My job was to bring it down but I did let them (the homeowner and his friends) use my chipper. I did use one of my 084s to cut up the trunk for them while I waited for them to finish chipping the branches. We were out of there by 4:00 after taking a break to eat pizza (bought by the homeowner).
> 
> I charged $1200 for my efforts. What do you make for half a day?



I don't overcharge like that. I would have pulled it over. but hey, more power to ya for getting it. good job.


----------



## the Aerialist

*I don't charge too much, you charge too little ...*



treeslayer said:


> I don't overcharge like that. I would have pulled it over. but hey, more power to ya for getting it. good job.



Well I guess you had to be there. The tree didn't fit in the yard I had to drop it into. 

I'm in Angie's List, in the thirty reviews I have there I've been given straight "A"s in the category called "pricing" by the customers I've "overcharged". In fact, I've received straight "A"s in all five categories where they are asked to give a letter grade.

People pay me for my demonstrated skill and experience. Others are cheaper, and I win many bids where I am nowhere near the cheapest.

Here is a link from the Angie's List web site where I was singled out for my excellence of service:

http://magazine.angieslist.com/tree-service/articles/imperial-tree-service-contractor-called-an-artist.aspx


----------



## treeslayer

Aerial Arborist said:


> Well I guess you had to be there. The tree didn't fit in the yard I had to drop it into.
> 
> I'm in Angie's List, in the thirty reviews I have there I've been given straight "A"s in the category called "pricing" by the customers I've "overcharged". In fact, I've received straight "A"s in all five categories where they are asked to give a letter grade.
> 
> People pay me for my demonstrated skill and experience. Others are cheaper, and I win many bids where I am nowhere near the cheapest.
> 
> Here is a link from the Angie's List web site where I was singled out for my excellence of service:
> 
> http://magazine.angieslist.com/tree-service/articles/imperial-tree-service-contractor-called-an-artist.aspx





limb up halfway on spikes and a lanyard, flop the top half in that bigass whole yard I see, back on the ground in 20-30 minutes at the most.

another hour of cutting and up the road I'd go. without hauling, $400.00
add cleanup and hauling double that. big pines are easy to get down, a ##### to load out. ####ing SAP.

I win over 3/4 of my bids, and get a lot of repeat calls. but I sub out all the clean up and hauling here in northern Illinois and the economy here is brutal.
you get that kinda money, good for you, but you'd starve in half the country charging that much. sounds like I should work for you, a contract climber is an answer to your problem of good help, but we ain't cheap.

You like tooting that horn, too, huh? Angies's list is written by clueless HO's.
you just got on here bro, slow your roll, this aint a competition. 
I ain't mad, I'm jealous........


----------



## pdqdl

treeslayer said:


> limb up halfway on spikes and a lanyard, flop the top half in that bigass whole yard I see, back on the ground in 20-30 minutes at the most.



No doubt! I never climb any higher than I have to. I can chop up a tree a whole lot faster on the ground than I can hanging on a rope.

You get pretty good at dropping trees that way, too.


----------



## the Aerialist

*You callin' Jessica a HO?*



treeslayer said:


> ... sounds like I should work for you, a contract climber is an answer to your problem of good help, but we ain't cheap... Angies's list is written by clueless HOs...



They may be clueless, but they are my customers! I play my act to the person or persons paying for the show. Sure I could have shot a rope up to it, tyed it off to my dump truck and pulled it over on my way out for $400.

I'd rather take my time, try out new gear, eat pizza and do it in a way that made them feel great about paying me $1200 for doing a difficult and dangerous stunt. It's like a magic show, people should get their money's worth, and I aim to please.


----------



## pdqdl

Aerial Arborist said:


> ... and do it in a way that made them feel great about paying me $1200 for doing a difficult and dangerous stunt. It's like a magic show, people should get their money's worth, and I aim to please.



I get it. 
You did an $800 tree job, and you put on a $400 performance.

My customers are generally at work, and just want to come home to a clean yard.


----------



## the Aerialist

*It was a $400 job and an $800 performance!*



pdqdl said:


> I get it. You did an $800 tree job, and you put on a $400 performance. My customers are generally at work, and just want to come home to a clean yard.



Well most times yes, but these guys were home and they cleaned their own yard, that's why I offered them a 50% discount from the $2400 a tree that size would normally cost them.

(I knew what you meant by "HO" I was being facetious)


----------



## tree MDS

Blakesmaster said:


> I got bored yesterday and watched a few of your videos. This is you too, right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei9kE95-chs
> 
> Jeff can be abrasive and he sure likes to rile new guys on the site up but I'd take him off ignore as you could learn quite a bit from him. Props for climbing at your age and posting vids of your work but, like most, there's a lot of room for improvement.



What the hell was that.. it too old to be a Greenhorn.. maybe a Greyhorn?? 

I see why one handing is so frowned upon now.. Jeezus!


----------



## Grace Tree

tree MDS said:


> What the hell was that.. it too old to be a Greenhorn.. maybe a Greyhorn??
> 
> I see why one handing is so frowned upon now.. Jeezus!



Yep. That was a magic show that was a little hard to watch. Nice camera work, though.
Phil


----------



## the Aerialist

*Sawing a lady in half ...*



Small Wood said:


> Yep. That was a magic show that was a little hard to watch. Nice camera work, though.
> Phil



I've got better cameras now though, you should see some of my newer stuff. Say, would you care to elaborate on that comment? What made it so hard to watch? Was it the way I got my saw stuck demonstrating using plunge cuts on big wood so that you don't get your saw stuck?


----------



## jefflovstrom

Well, some don't get it and this is a good example. Have fun with your post's Aerial, I will just read.
Jeff


----------



## pdqdl

I didn't want to jump on the bandwagon picking fights with you, but I consider a plunge cut dangerous and pointless in that scenario. Stick a wedge in the top-cut before it closes, and just keep going down.

Easy, fast, and safe.


----------



## Grace Tree

Aerial Arborist said:


> I've got better cameras now though, you should see some of my newer stuff. Say, would you care to elaborate on that comment? What made it so hard to watch? Was it the way I got my saw stuck demonstrating using plunge cuts on big wood so you don't get your saw stuck?



No, I was referring to the pine job. Kind of reminded me of this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU
Phil


----------



## Blakesmaster

pdqdl said:


> I didn't want to jump on the bandwagon picking fights with you, but I consider a plunge cut dangerous and pointless in that scenario. Stick a wedge in the top-cut before it closes, and just keep going down.
> 
> Easy, fast, and safe.



I probably would have plunged as he did but finished the cut from the underside. How anyone can misread tension and compression in that situation is beyond me.


----------



## Blakesmaster

tree MDS said:


> What the hell was that.. it too old to be a Greenhorn.. maybe a Greyhorn??
> 
> I see why one handing is so frowned upon now.. Jeezus!



Just reference my sig, broheim.


----------



## jefflovstrom

broheim.[/QUOTE said:


> i' before e' brohiem! :hmm3grin2orange:
> Jeff


----------



## the Aerialist

*No, by all means have at it ...*



jefflovstrom said:


> Well, some don't get it and this is a good example. Have fun with your post's Aerial, I will just read.
> Jeff



No, it's OK Jeff, now that I understand the rules of engagement here I've got my asbestos long underwear on. I put myself up for it by posting my videos, so have a whack at it, tell us what you really think.


----------



## Blakesmaster

jefflovstrom said:


> i' before e' brohiem! :hmm3grin2orange:
> Jeff



You sir, are wrong! http://wikibin.org/articles/broheim.html

####in #######. lol


----------



## tree md

You're not being singled out. We have all critiqued each others work vids and pics before... Those of us who have posted them anyway...

If you're going to put it out there for the public to see you might as well be prepared for some criticism if someone catches something. It's happened to me as well. Stings the ego a little bit but in reality peer review is a good thing.


----------



## jefflovstrom

Aerial Arborist said:


> No, it's OK Jeff, now that I understand the rules of engagement here I've got my asbestos long underwear on. I put myself up for it by posting my videos, so have a whack at it, tell us what you really think.



I am breaking my silence to say that was funny! Now back to reading.
Jeff


----------



## TreeAce

Aerial Arborist said:


> They may be clueless, but they are my customers! I play my act to the person or persons paying for the show. Sure I could have shot a rope up to it, tyed it off to my dump truck and pulled it over on my way out for $400.
> 
> I'd rather take my time, try out new gear, eat pizza and do it in a way that made them feel great about paying me $1200 for doing a difficult and dangerous stunt. It's like a magic show, people should get their money's worth, and I aim to please.



I was gonna stay outa this until I read this. You r to co..cky aerial. I tried watchn some of your videos and must say I only had patience to watch it long enough to say I am not all that impressed.


----------



## TreeAce

Small Wood said:


> No, I was referring to the pine job. Kind of reminded me of this guy.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU
> Phil



ROFLMFAO...omg...still laughing....star wars kid!!!!!! dude is awesome!!


----------



## the Aerialist

*Bring it on, I can take it ...*



tree md said:


> You're not being singled out. We have all critiqued each others work vids and pics before... Those of us who have posted them anyway...
> 
> If you're going to put it out there for the public to see you might as well be prepared for some criticism if someone catches something. It's happened to me as well. Stings the ego a little bit but in reality peer review is a good thing.



I understand that by posting my videos I will be getting plenty of peer "reviewing" so by all means give it your best shot. There is a difference between constructive criticism and snide remarks though. I'm quite outnumbered here though so I will just ignore most of the later, while trying to respond with thanks to the former.


----------



## the Aerialist

TreeAce said:


> I was gonna stay outa this until I read this. You r to co..cky aerial. I tried watchn some of your videos and must say I only had patience to watch it long enough to say I am not all that impressed.



Thank you for your impressions. I'm in business to make money not friends. At least I can't be accused of "stealing" work from anybody with low ball pricing as I get the impression that I charge significantly more than most of you here.

For me every tree starts at $1200, that's my baseline. Of course that can go up significantly, or down significantly especially if there is the volume to warrant lower per tree pricing.

I tell my customers that I price my work using the three Ds : Danger, Difficulty, and Drudgery (how much weight to move and where I have to move it). The other two are self explanatory.


----------



## TreeAce

I never said anything about what u charge. What I was mainly getting at is that u seem to have an attitude.


----------



## the Aerialist

*If you have an itch ~ scratch it ...*



TreeAce said:


> I never said anything about what u charge. What I was mainly getting at is that u seem to have an attitude.



Oh I do have an attitude, but it's a good one, at least it works for me. I'm really a sweet sensitive guy. It's just that the asbestos underwear I have to wear here makes me itchy.


----------



## pdqdl

Blakesmaster said:


> I probably would have plunged as he did but finished the cut from the underside. How anyone can misread tension and compression in that situation is beyond me.



That too, is pointless and troublesome.

The log will still close onto the saw, regardless of whether you have finished the cut from lifting through the top or cutting down on the top. 

Just knock in a wedge, finish the cut at the bottom of the log where the gap gets wider when the cut is finished. Easy, safe, and almost foolproof.


----------



## Blakesmaster

pdqdl said:


> That too, is pointless and troublesome.
> 
> The log will still close onto the saw, regardless of whether you have finished the cut from lifting through the top or cutting down on the top.
> 
> Just knock in a wedge, finish the cut at the bottom of the log where the gap gets wider when the cut is finished. Easy, safe, and almost foolproof.



Not if you're quick enough! lol

I watched the cut in question again and I would have done it a bit different than he did. It situations like that I'll often cut in from the top about halfway through then bore in just below that cut leaving a few fibers in the center of the log while I cut through the bottom. Then it's just a quick upward cut through those fibers I left and it comes right off. I usually won't take the time to carry wedges and a hammer for bucking unless it's big wood. That seems like a lot more hassle to me than a bore cut here or there. To each his own.


----------



## the Aerialist

*Traveling light through a wooded valley ...*



Blakesmaster said:


> ... I usually won't take the time to carry wedges and a hammer for bucking unless it's big wood. That seems like a lot more hassle to me than a bore cut here or there. To each his own.



That particular job involved a hike through a wooded valley in especially steep terrain. My groundie on that day was a pretty big guy but he had to carry everything in so I only took one saw, and not a big one (Stihl 361). A pinched bar meant a long uphill hike to get another. Sure wedges and a hammer don't weigh much, but they still have to be carried. 

I mean check it out, I had to use my flipline around it just to keep my footing, and even then I slipped a bit getting to the other side of the tree. Being tied to the tree during a drop didn't appeal to me and that was why I used that method, to avoid a pinch, but also to give me time to unhook myself from that tree before the final cut on the piece I left on the backside.


----------



## the Aerialist

*I'll quote myself ...*

Since I seem to be the only Guy interested in "Climbing Techniques", you know, the topic of this thread. 

Here I am responding to TreeMachine:



Aerial Arborist said:


> Yeah, I read the thread before I posted. I understand your point about the inefficiencies of 2:1 climbing vs. SRT (*something I intend to learn more about*) but here I am like 99% of working climbers using the old way.
> 
> Not that I'm not trying to advance. Using the LockJack for a couple of years was a major step forward for me. The Unicender is impressive, but works very differently than the LockJack. With the LockJack I can climb the rope above the device, with the Unicender you climb the from below it, hence the blue prussic cord to get more distance under it. I'm just experimenting with a new piece of gear, I've used it twice in the field so far.
> 
> *Got a link to some SRT techniques here? How does my LockJack and Unicender fit in?*
> 
> Here's a video me using this set-up for the first time. I do struggle a bit, but hey I'm 63 years old, and already was up that tree once that day:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/MrAerialArborist?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/mLVymugpwS8



(_Oh Oh, I posted that video again, snuggle into my asbestos jock strap_)

Well even though nobody here was interested enough to help, I went to another tree board _ which shall not be named here_ and was able to find helpful people and information, as well as links on this very topic. I thought I'd share them to see if anyone here is interested in anything other than waving their penises around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0otdEn7VcNU&feature=related

Now I'm stoked about using my Unicender in SRT to gain the much needed efficiency that TreeMachine so graciously explained.

My injuries make it hard to do rope assents as demonstrated in my much ridiculed video, comparing that effort with the video I just posted tells me I need a more efficient system.

I want to be able to go up a tree like a squirrel with a bottle rocket up his @ss so I can avoid making a Wraptor out of my capstan winch. I'd rather go up under my own power than have a machine do all the work. I'd feel like I was in one of those scooter chairs. Better than a walker I guess.

Anybody want to talk about that video or how I can rig up my Unicender like that? What about my LockJack? Hello?


----------



## Tree Machine

Jeez you guys, I travel and am offline for 48 hours and you slaughter this thread.

We could really improve this by a moderator deleting the last two pages of NOTHING, for the sake of the readership who really expect to come here and learn or contribute to CLIMBING TECHNIQUES.


You all continue your petty nitpicking and off-topic engagement. CAN YOU MAYBE PM EACH OTHER TO RESOLVE YOUR PERSONAL ISSUES?
ARBORIST 101, NOT MUDSLINGING 101

Please pardon my apparent disgust of the direction this thread has taken.


----------



## tree MDS

Tree Machine said:


> Jeez you guys, I travel and am offline for 48 hours and you slaughter this thread.
> 
> We could really improve this by a moderator deleting the last two pages of NOTHING, for the sake of the readership who really expect to come here and learn or contribute to CLIMBING TECHNIQUES.
> 
> 
> You all continue your petty nitpicking and off-topic engagement. CAN YOU MAYBE PM EACH OTHER TO RESOLVE YOUR PERSONAL ISSUES?
> ARBORIST 101, NOT MUDSLINGING 101
> 
> Please pardon my apparent disgust of the direction this thread has taken.



Sorry TM, I deleted it for you. I was going to anyway, after I thought about some.. carry on!


----------



## treeclimber101

treeco said:


> ho=home owner



ho = hiphop officer


----------



## the Aerialist

*I've got all the pieces I need ..*



TreeCo said:


> All you need is your unicender used like it is designed to be used.....and a foot ascender for one foot and you've got an srt ascent system. I'm on dial up so I can't watch the video.



Too bad, the video was slick as ... er, well it was very instructional. He used a bungie to advance a Gibbs w/ a foot sling and a pantin on the other foot and just walked up that rope like he was going upstairs.

I'll do a photo of how I have set up my Unicender for SRT ascents but I'm still a bit foggy on it's use for working the tree. I don't want to change over to another setup once I get up there.


----------



## the Aerialist

*Unicender on SRT ...*







The revolver tends the rope and allows an upward pull to adjust slack. This could shift the Unicender closer to me on the harness.


----------



## the Aerialist

*I've got to read the Bible ...*



TreeCo said:


> AA.....any chance you've got the book: 'On Rope'?
> 
> It's like the bible on rope use and covers all of this stuff and tons more. I made my first rope walker system back in 1995 or so. I use a CMI frog system these days to srt into the tree and switch over to a DbRT system using the VT for a climbing hitch. Works great.



Thanks for the tip. I wonder if I can get it online as an eBook so I could read it on my iPad ~ what a sweet little computer. I throw it on the dashboard of my dump truck and take it with me in the field.

I'm going to start a thread on the use of computers and other digital devices in tree work. I'm sort of a semi-geek and much of my business success is directly related to computers and the internet.

I usually climb with two ropes, my main line and a short line I use to maneuver. I hate pulling 200' of rope up and over a limb. I'm thinking use the LockJack on the short rope DRT and the Unicender on a single line SRT.


----------



## treemandan

Aerial Arborist said:


> Oh I do have an attitude, but it's a good one, at least it works for me. I'm really a sweet sensitive guy. It's just that the asbestos underwear I have to wear here makes me itchy.



I like your attitude and even though I still have to refer to you as a :newbie: I like you too! I hope you stick around through the winter.
Just remember to check out the injury and death forum from time to time


----------



## tree md

Aerial Arborist said:


> Thanks for the tip. I wonder if I can get it online as an eBook so I could read it on my iPad ~ what a sweet little computer. I throw it on the dashboard of my dump truck and take it with me in the field.
> 
> I'm going to start a thread on the use of computers and other digital devices in tree work. I'm sort of a semi-geek and much of my business success is directly related to computers and the internet.
> 
> I usually climb with two ropes, my main line and a short line I use to maneuver. I hate pulling 200' of rope up and over a limb. I'm thinking use the LockJack on the short rope DRT and the Unicender on a single line SRT.



Not sure about an ebook but I got a used copy in excellent condition off of Amazon a few years back for $10. For $10 you can't go wrong.


----------



## jefflovstrom

tree md said:


> For $10 you can't go wrong.



That don't even rhyme!! You are salackin!
Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## the Aerialist

*Here's a nugget from upstream in this thread ...*



kevin bingham said:


> Here is a version of twin line climbing. what do you think about this TM?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNLhGDXEbc&feature=player_embedded



Actually that very similar to my technique in complex trees that I need to maneuver in. I use my long line (200') and my short line (75') in concert to ascend until I get a good TIP for my long line.

I used my LockJack on the long line and a Ushiba (_titanium_) rope grab on the short line. Both with DRT. I'm doing this on my infamous "_spike-trimmer_" photo:






I only rarely use a shot bag, I prefer to use a set pole to advance myself up the tree. Using two ropes to do this makes isolating limbs and routing around others safe and easy. I plan a route for the long rope so that I have a good position for the top TIP without pulling 200' of rope over obstructing limbs. The short rope is my maneuvering rope, pulling it over limbs is no big deal and fast.

Of course I look like a Koala Bear after eucalyptus leaves compared to the guy in the video. Wow, I wish I could move like that.


----------



## Tree Machine

As promised, here is the link to treestuff.com's bigshot / shotline management package special. Luke made it even sweeter than I had anticipated.

The $200 special includes:

Bigshot
6' pole with rubber boot
Shotline winder with *200* feet of 1.75 mm dyneema & micron clip
Shotbag w/ your preferred weight
AND a dozen pair grippy gloves


Add up the cost of all the individual items and you'll see this is a killer deal.
I wanted him to name it the Master Ropesetting System. What he ended up calling it was not my idea. As long as you guys are getting an excellent setup for an excellent price, it doesn't really matter what it's called.

*Here's the link*: http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=285&item=996#


----------



## TreeAce

Tree Machine said:


> As promised, here is the link to treestuff.com's bigshot / shotline management package special. Luke made it even sweeter than I had anticipated.
> 
> The $200 special includes:
> 
> Bigshot
> 6' pole with rubber boot
> Shotline winder with *200* feet of 1.75 mm dyneema & micron clip
> Shotbag w/ your preferred weight
> AND a dozen pair grippy gloves
> 
> 
> Add up the cost of all the individual items and you'll see this is a killer deal.
> I wanted him to name it the Master Ropesetting System. What he ended up calling it was not my idea. As long as you guys are getting an excellent setup for an excellent price, it doesn't really matter what it's called.
> 
> *Here's the link*: http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=285&item=996#



LOL...sweet. Thats a great set-up at a great price. Names kinda wierd though...:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## 046

good thread... an pic's of kevin bingham's new gear?

or a link would be nice...


----------



## Tree Machine

I have some pics of Kevin's premier demo at TCIA, Pittsburgh. None of any close-ups, just of him using it in the demo tree. I'll share these, with his permission.


----------



## the Aerialist

*I'm a Rope Wench myself ...*

I was there working a booth, too bad I didn't register here before, I could have invited you to come say hello at the RopeArmor booth.

I did see it in a little after hours demo, (not to me) and I did't really get it that he was doing SRT, so the advantage of his "rope wrench" was lost on me at the time. Now that you have enlightened me TM I can see why there is all the interest.

Also I like the spool you have developed TM, and the "Tree Machine" special bundle seems great for those who want the whole kit, BigShot and all. I bookemarked the site.


----------



## Tree Machine

Aerial Arborist said:


> I did see it in a little after hours demo, (not to me) and I did't really get it that he was doing SRT, so the advantage of his "rope wrench" was lost on me at the time. Now that you have enlightened me TM I can see why there is all the interest.



The advantage over all other approaches to SRT is that Kevin's rope wrench allows both up and down abilities, which is unique to SRT and the basis of DdRT. Also, Kevin's rope wrench is a multi-part system, one of the parts being a friction hitch. This is appealing to the tree climbing doubled rope world as we are terribly addicted to the friction hitch, very hard for hitch users to wrap their heads around substituting a mechanical device. The rope wrench system is a hybrid between the two worlds.


----------



## Tree Machine

The principle behind the rope wrench is akin to a car's manual clutch system. Your gentle foot pressure on the clutch pedal activates a 'slave cylinder' whose magnified force then activates the clutch cylinder. Without this 'shared forces', your foot pressure alone would have to be huge to engage the clutch.

The rope wrench works similar to, but in reverse. If ALL the friction on a single line were applied to a friction hitch, the hitch would have to grip exceedingly tight to hold the climber in one place. Going up, you would have to 'break' the hitch each and every time after resting your weight on it. Also, when the hitch alone slides down the single line with your full weight on it, if you _can_ loosen it enough, it still has to grip firmly enough to keep you from accelerating down, and friction and heat build up quickly and you have a very impractical and potentially dangerous situation. That's why the friction hitch has never been (successfully) applied to SRT.

Until now. The mechanical rope wrench shares the frictional duties with the friction hitch, allowing the hitch to take on a portion of the friction and heat, and the rope wrench to take on a portion of the friction and heat. You modulate one with respect to the other, finding a sweet spot somewhere in between, depending on whether you are going up or down, and if going down, modulating depending on how fast you want to go down.

Honestly, I have yet to try this system first-hand. I have seen it demonstrated and have seen that you have to use both hands to use it, you can not apply the device midline and it does only SRT. That's fine if you don't have eyes spliced onto your ropes, or don't mind feeding the device up a length of rope to get it to the working position.


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## Tree Machine

Personally, I use a single *ascent* device that can be applied midline, to a single line or twin line, in under ten seconds and can be controlled in the climb using one hand, left or right. That is a properly engineered dual ascender. I also use a single descent device that can be applied midline, to a single line or twin line, in under ten seconds and can be controlled in the climb using one hand, left or right. But this requires swapping from one to the other somewhere during the climb. If you can get past the mental obstacle of a simple, ten-second change over, you can choose any of the three rope techniques, at will, whenever you choose, using whichever is the most advantageous on the particular tree you're approaching.

The rope wrench is successful in doing what it does, I just have higher aspirations for it.

I'm setting the bar a little high for our industry, but what I've described above is entirely possible. I know this to be an absolute fact, without dispute. There exists a device that will do this magnificently well on the ascent. There are some other devices that will do this on the descent. But you have two devices. Missing is a _singular_ device that will do ascent AND descent, single rope, doubled rope or twin line.


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## Tree Machine

I see the SRT rope wrench, with it's shared frictional duties in this way:
If you can achieve successful SRT performance sharing the friction between two devices at TWO points on the same rope, could a DUAL rope wrench achieve similar performance on a twin line, with it's shared friction on two points next to one another, instead of above and below one another.

In a hypothetical scenario, this should work, taking the friction hitch completely out of the scene, offering us a truly singular unit that does all three rope techniques.

A dual grigri or a dual I'D, even though they have not been invented, would work on the descent, but because of the configuration, would not work on the footlock ascent. Therefore, no real advantage over other dual descent devices, and they'd cost a mint.

A dual rope wrench, because the bend in the rope(s) can be straightened, should allow successful, near-frictionless ascent on twin line, ability to fully weight the device in between strides and self-belay out (limbwalks) or down (descent). Presumably, once you're on the tree climbing it, slack-tending would be a simple issue. Simple, meaning one-handed, minimal friction, and very little effort.

This being hypothetical, we must wait and see. Until then, I have to accept all these advantages and options using two devices, one that does ascent very, very well, and the other specializing in descent very, very well and suffer through a change-over that sucks an agonizing ten seconds out of my climb. Thank goodness we stop, rest, and take a few moments in the tree now and then to decide where we're going and what to do next. Without those moments, I don't know where I'd find a free ten seconds.
(yes, I'm being sarcastic).

For the cats who just can't comprehend having to change over to a second device, you should just keep doing what you're doing. You're fine. We're working on something the world has never seen. The day may eventually come, but we don't know when.

I'd like to see tree climbers develop this before some other aerial industry does.

Maybe we should submit this one to Mythbusters. MYTH; there is a single device that will go DdRT, DbRT and SRT, and work on ascent and descent.


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## Tree Machine

Aerial Arborist said:


> I was there working a booth, too bad I didn't register here before, I could have invited you to come say hello at the RopeArmor booth.



I actually attended that booth, intent on buying a treepeedo, but you had sold out, the last one had been doled out to a cat from Stowe, Vermont. We were probably face-to-face, AA. Good sorta meeting you.


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## the Aerialist

*Sorry I missed you ...*



Tree Machine said:


> I actually attended that booth, intent on buying a treepeedo, but you had sold out, the last one had been doled out to a cat from Stowe, Vermont. We were probably face-to-face, AA. Good sorta meeting you.



If I Talked to you you would know pretty well that you met me. I was the only guy in the booth wihtout a Canadian accent. That must have been the last day, we sold all the demonstrators we had on display the last day. I sent those Canucks home with 'nuthing. I can probably get you one for testing and review. I'd like to hear your thoughts on them.

I'll PM you about it if that's OK?


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## Tree Machine

Dude, I believe I DID meet you. It was at the end of day three. I photo'd Kevin's demo, then bolted over to the treepeedo booth. I had written myself a note to not forget to buy one of these.

Any piece of gear that can save me time or make me money, that gear is welcome in my collection. You sometimes don't know until you try it out.

My ropesetting has been boiled pretty much down to the least common denomonator. Simplifying it, or speeding it up further is a challenge I'm willing to accept.

I find spliced ends on my rope to be a major advantage. If I have to give up advantage 1 to replace it with advantage 2, advantage 2 needs to outperform advantage 1. That's my only requirement.


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## Tree Machine

Off topic just a little, but can I ask why you prefer setting & re-setting your rope with a pole, rather than using a bigshot and going high once? 


> I only rarely use a shot bag, I prefer to use a set pole to advance myself up the tree.


There's gotta be a reason.


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## the Aerialist

*Oh yes, there is a reason ...*



Tree Machine said:


> Off topic just a little, but can I ask why you prefer setting & re-setting your rope with a pole, rather than using a bigshot and going high once?
> 
> There's gotta be a reason.



The motorcycle wreck a year ago separated and broke my right collar bone badly and also the left shoulder blade was fractured. (_along with 8 broken ribs_). The BigShot is extremely uncomfortable and even the between the legs toss method (_not my favorite even before the wreck_) is painful. It's the follow through that causes the difficulty in hand tossing.

I'm actually faster with a big ladder, long set-pole, and two ropes than I am when you consider the time cost of misses, of which I've always had many, even before the accident, and stuck / hung-up bags.

I can't even calculate the crew costs I've incoured over the years when four guys watch me fuss with those things for 15~20 minutes while they have nothing to do.


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## the Aerialist

*Well, nice to have met you ..*



Tree Machine said:


> Dude, I believe I DID meet you. It was at the end of day three. I photo'd Kevin's demo, then bolted over to the treepeedo booth.... I find spliced ends on my rope to be a major advantage. ... advantage 2 needs to outperform advantage 1. That's my only requirement.



We were packing up then, once we got rid of the last demos we bolted, I gave them a trip up to Mt. Washington, the 800' ridge that overlooks the three rivers and we had a traditional beer and 'burgers that is the staple of Pittsburgh cuisine and they were off to the Great White North.

I like a tight eye on one end and a 4' loop on the other. I use both ends of my long rope if I don't want the load of two ropes.

Is it OK to PM you?


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## treeslayer

tree machine said:


> off topic just a little, but can i ask why you prefer setting & re-setting your rope with a pole, rather than using a bigshot and going high once?
> 
> There's gotta be a reason.



time.


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## tree md

LOL I set 5 lines in a large removal I did last month before I ever even entered the tree. Two TIPs, two rigging points and a tag line. Took me maybe 20 minutes to set all my lines but it saved me tons of time in the tree.

My rookie kept asking me why I was setting so many lines. I told him to just watch and he'd see. The tree was a large codom Oak that was lightening struck and one main fork was dead. I went from side to side as I went up lowering to two different drop zones. I needed a tag line on one large limb to keep it from swinging back into the neighbors house. Had to get way out on it to make my cut. It was a huge lateral. 

4' DBH Oak lowered from over the neighbors house and privacy fence done in an hour and a half and set every line from the ground.


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## the Aerialist

*Father Time?*



treeslayer said:


> time.



I've had crew guys who were good at it and I would give that job to them, but in the end I pretty much decided to work around my limitations and just used the set pole.


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## Tree Machine

Ahhhhh.. Ok. I understand now, and that makes perfect sense. Sorry about your motorcycle accident. It's the follow-through that gets takes you out. Owwww. 

Without the follow-through it would be like Tiger Woods whacking a drive, but bailing on his swing right after the ball is struck. As we know, Tiger cuts through the ball with authority and follows through completely until there is no more swing to be swung. From the standpoint of results, this is how its done. Same with a baseball swing. If you want to put the ball out where you want it, you hit the sucker and follow through with conviction. Kicking the field goal. The slapshot. Getting the girl. Success has so much to do with the follow-through.

In throwing a shotbag, the same principals apply, _especially the higher the throw_. You can be sloppy on low throws like rigging lower limbs while on the ground, but climb line throws 'generally' serve you best to nail as high a tie-in point as you can get. To get consistent, accurate, high sets, follow-through is critical. That point can not be overemphasized.


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## pdqdl

Easy, relatively inexpensive solution:

1.Get a big shot.
2. Get an archery release, or one of the trigger systems for the big shot.
3. Rig it with a lightweight pulley system for mechanical advantage to help you draw the shotbag to the distance needed.
4. (Optional) Put marks on your poles to calibrate the height of shot.
5. Use it to set your line!
......Pull the loaded Big Shot to the force you wish to shoot with. 
......Casually take careful aim, because you are not struggling to hold the rubber bands. 
......Squeeze off the shot like you were using a crossbow.
......Watch with delight as the throwing weight ascends to 80' and goes over the branch you wanted to reach.

For pics and full description of how to build, look at this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=114374


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## jefflovstrom

I would just leave him alone! He is an old, hard-a s s, and demand's respect. 
Just like my Dad! Arg!
Jeff


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## pdqdl

He isn't enough older than me to require any special consideration. Besides, it looks to me like he could use the advice. 

I watched him setting the line with his little loop & hangy-over-tool; _I thought that was a great idea_. I have never seen that before. Now all he needs to do is start using some other folks' great ideas. It's not like we are stingy with our opinions or ideas! 

AA: if you think you will get a pass from me on doing tree work the old & slow way because of your injuries, guess again. I'll take all your injuries and dance all the way to my grave if you could accept just a couple of mine. Before you take me up on that, just look me (and quite a few others!) up in the arboricultural injuries forum. 

(Just for the record, I'm pretty darned slow in a tree too, but that doesn't keep me from learning better, easier ways.)


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## the Aerialist

*Following Up on the Follow through ...*



Tree Machine said:


> ... Ok. I understand now, and that makes perfect sense... It's the follow-through that gets takes you out... Success has so much to do with the follow-through...



So true, and with most things, the ones you mentioned and most other endeavors as well. Sales is about follow up and follow through. Lose those and you lose sales.

Here a pretty good video of Thomas, the inventor and manufacture putting one through it's paces. He's using it in a BigShot, which is how I'd imagine you'd want to use it.

This is an older video, when it was called the "Treepedo" they had to change the name to "RopeArmour" because the original name was causing them export problems to Europe and Australia. I call it the rope rocket 'cause it looks like an RPG on the end of my rope gun. I won't be going through airports with that rig, They'd probably soot me before I could whip out my TSA ID.

PM me TM and I'll get a RopeArmour to you so you can try it out. I'm really interested in your take on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyEkX29wBls&NR=1


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## Tree Machine

I'm not asking for a freebie, but I do want to try it out. I'll spend the money. It may be more of a vote of support for effort involved in developing and bringing this to market. Not a straight, level, obstacle-free path.

I will look for any advantage. Right now, the only part of ropesetting that eludes me is nailing the shot or throw on the first try. This is my only hurdle to overcome, and this has a number of factors, mainly aim.


I wanted to add one more detail about line throwing and follow-through.
In golf or baseball, your follow through is a continuation of the arc of the swing, the club or bat ends up behind you.

In tossing, the shotbag is doing a slight arc in the low, early part of its swing, but quickly straightens out as the vector goes from a curve to a line.

Early in my struggle to get this right, my arm would also curve. I found that if my swinging arm created a curved arc in it;s travel, that the bag needed to be released at an exact place in the arm's arc that coincided exactly with the right place in the arc of the throwbag. In other words, both the arc of the arm and the arc of the bag needed to meet at and exact point, AND the bag needed to be released at that point. Three actions needing to be perfectly synched for a perfect throw. My success was low and frustration was high.

Here's where things changed for the better: The follow-through of the throwing arm changed. Your arm is not a bat or a golf club, and you're not whacking something. The mechanics are a completely different animal. It's a swing and a _release_, not a swing and a whack.

Now, the early part of the throw is an arc at the begi_nning, just as is the bag itself_, but as the arm is raised, straighten the travel of your hand _in exact line of where you want the bag to go_. Release, follow through and take note of where your hand is at the end of the toss. It should be pointing directly at your target.

Throwing is so much about nuance, the tiniest of details having so much effect on your accuracy. If you can eliminate some of what's being done wrong, a lot more of what you're doing becomes right. I spent years realizing this. Hopefully many of you can boil it down to hours.


Of course, I'm not talking to the guys who are draining throws consistently.
I'm sharing with the guys who are still finding frustration in what they KNOW should be a very simple process.


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## ckliff

Practice on the driveway. Just toss the bag into a 5 gallon bucket. Work up to longer distances. This helps your muscles & coordination "learn" the correct follow through technique.


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## the Aerialist

*No money needed ...*



Tree Machine said:


> I'm not asking for a freebie, but I do want to try it out....



Just a quick note, I see I have a PM ~ if that's you I'll work out the details.

I was given one to "test to destruction" while adapting to with my Rope Gun, I'll send you that one, just send it back if you don't replace your shot bag with it.


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