# How much bar can a 395 handle?



## curdy (Jul 20, 2007)

Hey guys. I have a 395 with a 36" bar and 36" CSM. I would like to have the capability to mill wider for the occasion I have a wider piece and want some big-bad-bodacious slabs. From the ads, sounds like the saw tops out at 50"

I just got off the phone with Granberg and they said they could sell me the the 56" rail upgrade for about $85. The 72" rail upgrade would set me back about $110. Both sound pretty good to me...(Sure I could design my own, but frankly my time is worth more than that right now). I already know that as I exceed 36", I'll need to add an auxilary oiler.

I'd like to go wider than 50" though. Can anyone chime in that can share some experience with this?

This would be an occasional type of set up. So speed isn't really a factor (of course, when does 'speed' really apply with csm-ing  ). In other words, if the saw could handle it, just at a slower pace, I'm OK with that.

Thanks in advance for the help.


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## carvinmark (Jul 21, 2007)

I run a 42" on mine with an aux oiler. I'm sure it would pull a 50" just fine.


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## Ianab (Jul 21, 2007)

Also you can reduce the number of cutters on the longer chain. Go to a double skip or more, the big slabbers the guys use here have about 10 links, then 2 cutters.. repeat. Keeps the total of number of cutters you are trying to drive down.

Cheers

Ian


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## computeruser (Jul 22, 2007)

carvinmark said:


> I run a 42" on mine with an aux oiler. I'm sure it would pull a 50" just fine.



A couple pics of Mark's setup, taken at a GTG a while back. This setup works really well:


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## curdy (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses so far guys! Ianab, very good point, thanks! I'm gonna run with this idea and see if I can track down some more info on just how long I can go. If I can get away with longer than 56", its worth getting the larger mill and then just having different sized bars to accommodate the log I'm milling. I would think there's no sense in running a 70"+ bar with less cutters on a log that a 56" bar with more cutters could handle.

Thoughts anyone?


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jul 25, 2007)

curdy said:


> Thanks for all the responses so far guys! Ianab, very good point, thanks! I'm gonna run with this idea and see if I can track down some more info on just how long I can go. If I can get away with longer than 56", its worth getting the larger mill and then just having different sized bars to accommodate the log I'm milling. I would think there's no sense in running a 70"+ bar with less cutters on a log that a 56" bar with more cutters could handle.
> 
> Thoughts anyone?



This is why I have 44", 66" and 72" bars. Not only are you pulling extra chain that is doing nothing more than creating friction and drag, but it's dangerous to have over 2' of bar hanging out of a log at waist height.


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## curdy (Jul 25, 2007)

Some good words from Aggie that he sent in a PM:

"I believe if you set up with .325 .063 ga chain you should be fine with a 60" bar on your 395. I have used carlton k3c full comp reground to 10 deg on my 084 and it held up well. Don't rule out full comp for your 395. It has been my experience that skip ripping chain does little more than slow down cut speed and provides minimal relief from bogging. I tested a semi-skip I made from a full comp chain and it worked OK but seemed bit slower than full comp and pulled the same.

.325 ripping chain is all I run on my 066 now and with a 42" bar it cooks. I actually picked up the idea of using this chain from Rail-o-matic and he swears by it for long bars. I would use it exclusively on my 084 if it weren't for a little experience I had with shattering a 3/8" chain when I found a 60d nail. For questionable wood I use .404 as I have never had more than just a few teeth ripped off it but for good clean wood, .325 is the way to go.


Good luck."


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## fordtruckf100 (Aug 16, 2007)

*Curdy or Rail o Matic???*

What bar are you using on the Stihl 066 with the .325 chain??
Where can I get the bar and chain?
Thanks. Duane in VA.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 16, 2007)

fordtruckf100 said:


> What bar are you using on the Stihl 066 with the .325 chain??
> Where can I get the bar and chain?
> Thanks. Duane in VA.



I have Oregon Powermatch (Bailey's), Stihl and GB (Stens) bars and they all perform well for me.

The chain I use is Carlton K3C .325 semi-chisel reground to ripping specs gradually with use as to not waste 1/3 of the cutter right out of the box. I get it from Stens (former GB America- 800-765-9357- ask for Norm) but they re-badge the Carlton chain and sell it as J63S-1P25 (.063 ga).

If you can find Stihl .325 RMC (micro-chisel with no bumper links) it works good as well but all I can find here lately is RM2 and RMC3. I haven't tried either of these but since they have bumper and anti-vibe links I don't want to. Chip clearance is a big issue with ripping chains and that extra safety junk just gets in the way.


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## Jonsered2095 (Aug 17, 2007)

Aggie [or anyone else], I have much the same question as Curdy, except I have Jonsered2095 and I figured this may benefit Curdy also (so not trying to hijack Curdy).

I am running 3/8 9tooth 0.058" guage with 22" bar and it handles well fully burried across the grain (can fell 1m+ trees). This is effectively the same size saw running a different carb with a lower peek power (8200rpm). I am considering building a logosol style mill, except with two rails which would allow cutting from both sides when necessary, doubling the slab size. This would also allow double size rounds to be cut from stumps for convoluted table tops etcetera. I know it may not be precise (depending on the engineering) but on such a large slab a little extra work would be worth it plus it could cut some fancy angles.

I was considering the GB 44" roller nose (if I can find one) as they come in 0.058" guage for a slightly narrower kerf than the 0.063". It would also be useful for felling trees over 1m+.

Two questions: will a 44" bar bend much if used for a horizontal cut making the meeting of he two cuts difficult? And how does .325" compare with 3/8 for kerf size?

Any advice/ideas appreciated. Hope this post helps Curdy.

Note: I would like to keep the same chain for each bar (I have a 10tooth sprocket I will pair up with a 16" bar also for cutting cants).


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 18, 2007)

Jonsered2095 said:


> Aggie [or anyone else], I have much the same question as Curdy, except I have Jonsered2095 and I figured this may benefit Curdy also (so not trying to hijack Curdy).
> 
> I am running 3/8 9tooth 0.058" guage with 22" bar and it handles well fully burried across the grain (can fell 1m+ trees). This is effectively the same size saw running a different carb with a lower peek power (8200rpm). I am considering building a logosol style mill, except with two rails which would allow cutting from both sides when necessary, doubling the slab size. This would also allow double size rounds to be cut from stumps for convoluted table tops etcetera. I know it may not be precise (depending on the engineering) but on such a large slab a little extra work would be worth it plus it could cut some fancy angles.



Sounds like a fun project.



> I was considering the GB 44" roller nose (if I can find one) as they come in 0.058" guage for a slightly narrower kerf than the 0.063". It would also be useful for felling trees over 1m+.



Many chains have the same chassis and kerf width regardless of the bar grove width they're made for. If you compare .063 and .050 Stihl chain side by side, the only difference is the tang on the drive link is stamped down to .050 but in between the rivets it's still .063. I think Bailey's ripping chain is the same way but I'm not positive.



> Two questions: will a 44" bar bend much if used for a horizontal cut making the meeting of he two cuts difficult? And how does .325" compare with 3/8 for kerf size?



I just went out to the shop and clamped my 44" GB bar to my workbench like it would be mounted in a mill you described. The bar tip was 1" lower than the bench top but this can be compensated for buy raising the angle of the power head. What can't be compensated for without intermediate supports is the 1/8" bow in the bar (measured in the middle of the bar using a 4' straight edge). That will have to be a judgment call on your part whether or not it's acceptable.

In my ripping chain tests I measured an average of 3/8" kerf for 3/8" and 5/16" kerf for .325 chain. This may not sound like much but it does make a big difference in the volume of sawdust you produce. With that saw .325 is the way to go IMO. Others here will recommend 3/8" low pro (.365) but I've never used it myself.





> Any advice/ideas appreciated. Hope this post helps Curdy.
> 
> Note: I would like to keep the same chain for each bar (I have a 10tooth sprocket I will pair up with a 16" bar also for cutting cants).





Keeping chains the same will help a lot. I have tested so many different types of chains that I get confused as to which is which. I've settled on what I want now and the others will go away once they are used up.


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## Jonsered2095 (Aug 18, 2007)

> Sounds like a fun project.



Nice idea I think, although it sounds like I need to think on it some more!



> I just went out to the shop and clamped my 44" GB bar to my workbench like it would be mounted in a mill you described. The bar tip was 1" lower than the bench top but this can be compensated for buy raising the angle of the power head. What can't be compensated for without intermediate supports is the 1/8" bow in the bar (measured in the middle of the bar using a 4' straight edge). That will have to be a judgment call on your part whether or not it's acceptable.



Thanks for that Aggie!

I was hoping this length bar would be stiffer than that, still a 1/8" bow is not bad, but now you have enlightened me I can just imagine an unsupported bar tip burried in the cut will probably twist and dive one way or the other, particularly if the chain is not perfectly sharpened or if the grain changes. That would pose a big problem!

I may simply have to support the bar. A 36"+ cut with a 44" bar is still significant. I really want up to a 2m+ cut for stumps though, I could do this vertically like a stack cutter with an unsupported bar tip, and perhaps get a longer bar still (supported bar tip) when or if I really need it for milling.

This brings us full circle: if I must support the bar, just how long in your [or anybody's] opinion do you think my saw (or Curdy's) could handle? I do have the ability to drop to a 7tooth sprocket for more gearing, which is aproximately the equivalent of a 6tooth on a Stihl or Husqy. I have raised the gearing from 7 to 8 to 9tooth, and the bigger the sprocket the more it seems to like it! 

Appreciated.


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## fordtruckf100 (Aug 18, 2007)

*aggiewoodbutchr*

What sprocket would be good for the 066 .325. I'm planning on 
running a 36" bar. Thanks. 
Duane in VA.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 20, 2007)

Jonsered2095 said:


> Nice idea I think, although it sounds like I need to think on it some more!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The longest I have ran on my 066 is 42". Rail-o-matic mentioned in the past he had used up to 50" on an 066 but with the right chain and some patience I believe you could run a longer bar. 




fordtruckf100 said:


> What sprocket would be good for the 066 .325. I'm planning on
> running a 36" bar. Thanks.
> Duane in VA.



I run 9 on mine.


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## Jonsered2095 (Aug 20, 2007)

Thanks Aggie, 42-44" sounds like the sweet spot and should leave a little power in reserve.


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## SawTroll (Aug 20, 2007)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> .... If you can find Stihl .325 RMC (micro-chisel with no bumper links) it works good as well but all I can find here lately is RM2 and RMC3. I haven't tried either of these but since they have bumper and anti-vibe links I don't want to. Chip clearance is a big issue with ripping chains and that extra safety junk just gets in the way.



I see your point, but the RMC has the same anti-vibe chassis as the RMC3. The culpit with the RMC3 is the ramps in front of the rakers, not the anti-vibe chassis.......


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 21, 2007)

SawTroll said:


> I see your point, but the RMC has the same anti-vibe chassis as the RMC3. The culpit with the RMC3 is the ramps in front of the rakers, not the anti-vibe chassis.......



oops, thanks for pointing that out. I was typing faster than my brain was working.

That should have been .325 RM (regular micro-chisel). As you said, RMC is the newer anti-vibe and RMC3 is the same as the old RM2 (bumper link). Unfortunately, the newest Stihl catalogs have RM only available in 3/8" unlike past ones and I was unsuccessful in finding a local dealer with old RM in stock. I gave up and ordered some Carlton chain.


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## fordtruckf100 (Aug 21, 2007)

What about the Woodsman Pro 23RC? You can get this at Bailey's in .325.
I've used the Woodsman Pro 3/8 and it does quite well. Don't know about
the 23RC chain?? Any thoughts. Duane in VA.

Here's the item #. It's only .18 per link. Very economical. 

WoodsmanPRO 23RC per Drive Link 
Item No: WP325 23RC $0.18 
Click Here 

Drive Link of 23RC Chain Saw Chain (.325 x .063)


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 21, 2007)

fordtruckf100 said:


> What about the Woodsman Pro 23RC? You can get this at Bailey's in .325.
> I've used the Woodsman Pro 3/8 and it does quite well. Don't know about
> the 23RC chain?? Any thoughts. Duane in VA.
> 
> ...



Chisel chain doesn't make very good ripping chain because it dulls too fast. It would initially cut like crazy but only for a short time.


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## 1953greg (Aug 23, 2007)

*aggie*



aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Sounds like a fun project.
> 
> Many chains have the same chassis and kerf width regardless of the bar grove width they're made for. If you compare .063 and .050 Stihl chain side by side, the only difference is the tang on the drive link is stamped down to .050 but in between the rivets it's still .063. I think Bailey's ripping chain is the same way but I'm not positive.
> 
> ...



"What can't be compensated for without intermediate supports is the 1/8" bow in the bar (measured in the middle of the bar using a 4' straight edge)."

i also notice this same problem on 42" bar 36" mill. solution was to take a tarp strap and pull the saw handle upward toward the top of the depth/thickness adjustment bar. dosent take much and is easily adjusted for correct tension for bar strightness. its the weight of the powerhead that causes the bow. 

also, aggie, where did you find a long bar for 066 mount and the .325 chain?

i appreciate your sharing of pics and info.


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## BobL (Aug 23, 2007)

1953greg said:


> "What can't be compensated for without intermediate supports is the 1/8" bow in the bar (measured in the middle of the bar using a 4' straight edge)."
> 
> i also notice this same problem on 42" bar 36" mill. solution was to take a tarp strap and pull the saw handle upward toward the top of the depth/thickness adjustment bar. dosent take much and is easily adjusted for correct tension for bar strightness. its the weight of the powerhead that causes the bow.



Mills that inboard mount direct at the power head and not on the bar dont have this problem. I have less than 1/64"of bow on my 42" bar on the BIL mill.

AggieWB, I have seen in a post somewhere that you use a plastic? central support when starting a cut when using your very long bars. Using a bar only mounted mill, there must be some length of bar at which the upward bow caused by the weight of the power head and the natural middle droop of a bar counteract each other - any idea what length that might be?


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 23, 2007)

1953greg said:


> "What can't be compensated for without intermediate supports is the 1/8" bow in the bar (measured in the middle of the bar using a 4' straight edge)."
> 
> i also notice this same problem on 42" bar 36" mill. solution was to take a tarp strap and pull the saw handle upward toward the top of the depth/thickness adjustment bar. dosent take much and is easily adjusted for correct tension for bar strightness. its the weight of the powerhead that causes the bow.




I'm not sure were talking about the same things here. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

The Logosol mill Jonsered2095 was talking about uses the bar in a cantilevered position http://www.logosol.com/_sawmills/m7/?p=1.

What he described was building a similar mill without the tip support and a wide carriage that allowed the saw to cut from both sides, effectively doubling the cut width capacity.

I took some pictures of what I described to clarify. 

Here's the bar clamped to the bench in a cantilevered position.







Here's the bar shimmed up to where the tip is level with the base.






Here's the bow shown against a straight edge.







The only solution I can think of to this problem in this particular application is to camber, or pre-bend, the bar upwards just enough that it counteracts the force of gravity on it. I've bent (slightly) and straightened bars several times before so I don't think it would be too difficult. I guess it would all depend on how bad you wanted to risk ruining a bar if you messed up.

My biggest concern would be how true the bar tracks. The chain's top plate angles (all angles for that matter) would have to match perfectly.




> also, aggie, where did you find a long bar for 066 mount and the .325 chain?



The longest bar I have for the 066 right now is a 42" Oregon Powermatch. Bailey's has Woodsman Pro bars up to 50" for the 066 and you can request that they ship it with a .325 tip. They use Oregon Powermatch replacement tips as well so swapping them out is a snap.





> i appreciate your sharing of pics and info.




No problem


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 24, 2007)

BobL said:


> Mills that inboard mount direct at the power head and not on the bar dont have this problem. I have less than 1/64"of bow on my 42" bar on the BIL mill.



I'm the same way with my 44" bar. No problems at all.



> AggieWB, I have seen in a post somewhere that you use a plastic? central support when starting a cut when using your very long bars. Using a bar only mounted mill, there must be some length of bar at which the upward bow caused by the weight of the power head and the natural middle droop of a bar counteract each other - any idea what length that might be?



The only mill of this type I have used was one I made for the 72" bar. A bar this length can be torqued to counter sag but the tip is the weak link. I've tried this approach but the only way it worked properly was to back the tip clamp completely off the nose assembly and onto the bar body. I wasn't satisfied with it as I lost too much capacity.

I do a number of things for this bar to get a flat cut. First off, I use a thin washer as a shim to raise the angle of the bar on the powerhead end.






Second, I loosen the uprights at the nose end from the rails and clamp the nose into place. I the pull slightly outward on the uprights raise the bar a bit more but not enough to torque the tip at an odd angle (which will cause the chain to derail).






The third thing I do is support the bar while starting the cut. This hook is made from 1/2" thick HDPE but a soft wood would work fine as well. Once the bar is buried up to the hook, it's removed and the kerf supports the bar for the remainder of the cut.







For my 60" bar I use step 1 and 2, but 3 is not necessary.


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## BobL (Aug 24, 2007)

Excellent tips AggieWB. Thanks for sharing.


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## 1953greg (Aug 24, 2007)

*aggie*

the upward bow in my bar is caused by the weight of the powerhead pulling down on the bar. the fulcrum is the bar clamp near the powerhead. amounts to bout 1/8" crown in the middle of bar. solution was to pull up on the powerhead wrap handle w/ the tarp strap. use the top of the verticle bar on the mill for anchor. maybe no one else has this problem. :crazy1: :crazy1: 

about your .325 chain. 
i use a powermatch bar also. so i can replace the 3/8 bar sprocket w/ a .325?? is there a .325 engine sprocket available for the 066? obviously there is but where did u find it? oem maybe?


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## Jonsered2095 (Aug 24, 2007)

> i appreciate your sharing of pics and info.





> Excellent tips AggieWB. Thanks for sharing.



I appreciate it also. The pics really clarify the bend in the bar. I wonder at what point the bend becomes a tolerance of < say 3mm at the tip? 





> The third thing I do is support the bar while starting the cut. This hook is made from 1/2" thick HDPE but a soft wood would work fine as well. Once the bar is buried up to the hook, it's removed and the kerf supports the bar for the remainder of the cut.



Very ingenuitous. I think granberg should hire you! 





> about your .325 chain.
> i use a powermatch bar also. so i can replace the 3/8 bar sprocket w/ a .325?? is there a .325 engine sprocket available for the 066? obviously there is but where did u find it? oem maybe?



The Oregon rim sprocket clutch system allows for interchangability with any other rim sprocket of the same size. The 066 should run a 'standard seven' spline system. The '.325 x 9 tooth' sprocket comes in the standard seven spline. Your local Oregon dealer should have them in stock. Or if you want to play around with your gearing a little more check these guys out: http://www.danzcoinc.com/html/large_7_spline.htm :chainsawguy:


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 24, 2007)

1953greg said:


> the upward bow in my bar is caused by the weight of the powerhead pulling down on the bar. the fulcrum is the bar clamp near the powerhead. amounts to bout 1/8" crown in the middle of bar. solution was to pull up on the powerhead wrap handle w/ the tarp strap. use the top of the verticle bar on the mill for anchor. maybe no one else has this problem. :crazy1: :crazy1:
> 
> about your .325 chain.
> i use a powermatch bar also. so i can replace the 3/8 bar sprocket w/ a .325?? is there a .325 engine sprocket available for the 066? obviously there is but where did u find it? oem maybe?



That issue is some what common on Alaskan mills. I've seen other's use bungee cords and such to correct it.


The Oregon .325 replacement bar tip part number is 34775. Jonsered is correct about the rim sprockets. I got my 9 pin sprockets from GB America (now Stens, 800-765-9357) and an 11 pin from Madsens.


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## Kiwilogger (Aug 25, 2007)

Awesome thread.  

I got some great tips here thanks. I am thinking about buying a chainsaw mill to go on my 66 shortly. aggiewb, I like your plastic support.


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## oldsaw (Aug 26, 2007)

Kiwilogger said:


> Awesome thread.
> 
> I got some great tips here thanks. I am thinking about buying a chainsaw mill to go on my 66 shortly. aggiewb, I like your plastic support.



If you are going to mill anything more than 16-20", put your 088 on it, you will be glad you did. I haven't run my 066 on the mill since I got my 3120, but I do bring it for "back-up". On smaller logs, you can up the sprocket size for more speed.

Mark


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## Jonsered2095 (Aug 26, 2007)

> I got my 9 pin sprockets from GB America (now Stens, 800-765-9357) and an 11 pin from Madsens.



Aggie, do you use the GB clutch drum? If so, are they superior to the Oregon and worth the expense?


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Aug 26, 2007)

Jonsered2095 said:


> Aggie, do you use the GB clutch drum? If so, are they superior to the Oregon and worth the expense?



I use an OEM clutch. Only the sprockets are from GB.


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## Kiwilogger (Aug 27, 2007)

oldsaw said:


> If you are going to mill anything more than 16-20", put your 088 on it, you will be glad you did. I haven't run my 066 on the mill since I got my 3120, but I do bring it for "back-up". On smaller logs, you can up the sprocket size for more speed.
> 
> Mark



*sniff*

Well, the 88 is currently consigned to "project status." It ran a crank bearing, and unfortunately the clutch side casing is pretty well toast. It had done quite a few hours when I got it (fairly cheap), and the consequences of buying second hand saws have now become apparent. :bang: It really needs a new crankcase, I'm not a fan of snotting up the bearing housing to make it go. I'd rather spend the extra and do it right. Plus, I'm quite keen on getting someone to turn it into a hotsaw for me at some stage, so it's parked up at the moment. I had a play on a hotsaw at our last local agricultural fielddays, and I loved it!!  But anyway, I digress, my 66 is a pearler and I thats the saw I'm going to use at the moment. I've got a 36" bar for it, and when I use it for felling some of the big cypress, I run an 8 tooth rim sprocket and it seems to handle it ok. Thoughts on sprocket size? 

Cheers all...


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## curdy (Sep 6, 2007)

Haven't been on here in a while...looks like this topic turned into quite the discussion! Well, not going to be upgrading any bars and mills...no need right now. The monster logs I have are going to be taken to a friends who has a home made csm mill that runs off the hydraulics of his skid steer. This guy is quite the wiz with building stuff and also happens to be a master carpenter...so we're going to share the wood. I've never seen the mill, but apparently this thing is pretty impressive (my guess is that it looks something like a Lucas Mill). I'll make sure to take plenty of pictures and post them. We should be getting to work on it sometime with in the month.


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## Jonsered2095 (Sep 6, 2007)

*I am very interseted...*



curdy said:


> Haven't been on here in a while...looks like this topic turned into quite the discussion! Well, not going to be upgrading any bars and mills...no need right now. The monster logs I have are going to be taken to a friends who has a home made csm mill that runs off the hydraulics of his skid steer. This guy is quite the wiz with building stuff and also happens to be a master carpenter...so we're going to share the wood. I've never seen the mill, but apparently this thing is pretty impressive (my guess is that it looks something like a Lucas Mill). I'll make sure to take plenty of pictures and post them. We should be getting to work on it sometime with in the month.



cant wait to see the pics.   opcorn:


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